# Shall we ban politics? Take the poll.



## Matrix (Sep 21, 2017)

Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?

Please take the poll, only two choices: yes or no.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 21, 2017)

History is being made every day. I think it is important to discuss current affairs in the interest of becoming better informed.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 21, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> it is important to discuss current affairs in the interest of becoming better informed.


If it can be discussed in a civil manner, I'm all for it. 

Unfortunately moderating politics into a friendly forum is mission impossible, it's against the nature of politics. I'm at my wit's end.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 21, 2017)

Matrix said:


> If it can be discussed in a civil manner, I'm all for it.
> 
> Unfortunately moderating politics into a friendly forum is mission impossible, it's against the nature of politics. I'm at my wit's end.



Understood.  Hence, the creation of this poll.     Perhaps you might enlist a special moderator to police the Political section.  

  I'm not being facetious, but I seriously would consider Warrigal, if she be willing.


----------



## nvtribefan (Sep 21, 2017)

I don't find  the political posts here to be educational, but I do sometimes read them for chuckles.

But no one has to read them.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 22, 2017)

Matrix said:


> Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?
> 
> Please take the poll, only two choices: yes or no.



I'm wondering. Have you had complaints or is this a concern of your own? This is the second time around isn't it.


----------



## Wren (Sep 22, 2017)

I rarely read political posts  but feel a site should offer a wide range of topics to suit all members, as long they respect each other's point of view and things don't get nasty...


----------



## ossian (Sep 22, 2017)

I have not been active here for many months. I left because the political discussions became quite unsavoury. I can recognise that it is difficult to moderate poltical debate objectively on a board like this, so I would be happy to have then removed.

We should also remember that extremists will use boards and social media to put across their agenda. They can do this by bringing colleagues into play or creating multiple accounts to create the impresssion that they are many. So, it is very easy for things to get out of control.


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 22, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Understood.  Hence, the creation of this poll.     Perhaps you might enlist a special moderator to police the Political section.
> 
> I'm not being facetious, but I seriously would consider Warrigal, if she be willing.



Warri would be a good choice.  She's even-tempered, fair, and not a member of either political party.


----------



## rkunsaw (Sep 22, 2017)

How many members have been banned from this forum at one time or another? And how many were banned because of politics? That should tell you something. 
One big problem with politics is having a moderator who is strongly on one side and anti the other side. That is why I left this forum and have only recently posted a few times.


----------



## terry123 (Sep 22, 2017)

No one is forced to read the politics topics.  Just pass on by.  I have strong beliefs but I do read others opinions and think about them and sometimes I alter my view of a subject.


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 22, 2017)

Plenty of politics elsewhere..JMHO..


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 22, 2017)

I like the political threads but the constant tit for tat back and forth comments by a few members get tedious and IMO add little value to the discussions.


----------



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 22, 2017)

1.)  Domestic and global politics has an impact on senior citizens, our children, our grandchildren, and our Country.  I believe it's important to have the opportunity to discuss politics on a senior citizen forum.
2.)  I agree with a couple of the posters that what one clicks on or reads on a discussion board are at their own "risk".  If one does not believe the political forum or any specific thread on that forum agrees with their political beliefs, they are not forced to click on it.
3.)  The political forum on SF has been refreshing in that there has been a mix of ideologies.  So many discussion boards are weighted heavily towards one side or the other.  I believe most who post on SF's forum are good people.  You can be a good American, a good person, a good grandparent even if you don't agree with my personal politics.  That's what has been enjoyable about the back and forth on SF.  Good people.  Strong convictions.  The ability to discuss those differences in non-threatening tones.
4.)  Moderation of a political forum is a difficult task.  From what I've seen, the moderators on SF have been excellent at keeping personal attacks regulated/disciplined.  Some threads do get a little out of hand with the repetitive back and forth that happens deep into certain threads.  In those cases, I believe pm's to those who insist on the bickering would allow the chance to mellow the rhetoric.  If those warned don't abide by the wishes of the mod... they should be banned from that forum.
5.)  We ALL must remember that any on-line discussion board is not a public playground that belongs to us.  It is a privately owned and operated entertainment center where we can all get along or we can be escorted off the premises.  Whether the political forum is continued is totally and completely up to the owners of this board.  If we don't like how that owner regulates it, moderates it, or allows certain discussions we are free to leave... or have the opportunity to go play in someone else's sandbox.

I have been so impressed with the fantastic people who seem to have congregated on SF.  If Matrix does decide to delete the political forum, I will miss it greatly.  However, that is his/her choice and his/her decision and I will be fully understanding of that decision.

p.s.  I do not know the capabilities of this board's software.  Two other discussion boards I post to have political forums.  Both are sports boards.  Their political forums are "hidden".  A member must request permission to have access to the political discussion and can, likewise, opt out at any time.  I have not opted in to either board's political discussion because I believe the board's purpose is discussion of and support of that particular sport.  SF's mission, I would imagine, is support and interest for seniors.  Politics can be important to seniors.  Yet, if it were possible to have that forum "hidden" where those who wanted to participate could, maybe that would be a "compromise".


----------



## dpwspringer (Sep 22, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I like the political threads but the constant tit for tat back and forth comments by a few members get tedious and IMO add little value to the discussions.


I got fed up with our political forum and seldom even go there anymore. Politics brings out the worse in too many people and it doesn't take very many of those people to ruin it. I wouldn't wish moderating our political forum on anyone.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 22, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Understood.  Hence, the creation of this poll.     Perhaps you might enlist a special moderator to police the Political section.
> 
> I'm not being facetious, but I seriously would consider Warrigal, if she be willing.



Warrigal declines. You don't want to unleash the Vice Principal in me. A lot of people would be sentenced to writing out lines such as "I must remember that every poster is a human being with genuine feelings". No cut and paste allowed and the finished lines would have to be  hand written and posted as an image.

Besides, I live in a different time zone. When most members are jousting in the political arena, I am sleeping.

Seriously though, all that is required is to remember that we are all guests on a forum organised for us by Matrix and SeaBreeze and to behave as well mannered guests. Sometimes we need to have our say, then shut up and allow someone else to have the last word for a change.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 22, 2017)

I enjoy the political forum... but it does need moderating...  and the moderator should be fair and unbiased.. rules should apply to everyone equally, and everyone should be aware of them.


----------



## ossian (Sep 22, 2017)

Not having been around here for ages, I was wondering what had prompted this poll and debate now?


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 22, 2017)

Ken N Tx said:


> Plenty of politics elsewhere..JMHO..



That would mean leaving the forum. Do we want that? Its the same gang posting all the time. If it doesnt bother them where is the problem.?

I don't understand people not participating wanting it banned. You don't have to go there .


----------



## Lara (Sep 22, 2017)

dpwspringer said:


> I got fed up with our political forum and seldom even go there anymore. Politics brings out the worse in too many people and it doesn't take very many of those people to ruin it. I wouldn't wish moderating our political forum on anyone.


I totally agree. Especially considering the world we have today. We certainly don't want to raise people's blood pressure in a Senior Forum...:roseeace


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 22, 2017)

I think that *discussing *​ politics is fine; but it seems more like a street brawl when I try to read the current events section of this forum; so I have been avoiding it because it seems to bring out a lot of anger in some people there. 
When it spills over into other threads (we had Trump being blamed because there are hurricanes, for heaven’s sake !), then the animosity has just gone way overboard, in my opinion. 
I think that if people want to discuss politics (or argue about it) then they can start one of the private groups and do it there.  None of it would show up under new posts, and then other current events could actually be discussed in the current events section of the forum.


----------



## Sunny (Sep 22, 2017)

> I don't understand people not participating wanting it banned. You don't have to go there .



Camper, for once I absolutely agree with you!


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that *discussing *​ politics is fine; but it seems more like a street brawl when I try to read the current events section of this forum; so I have been avoiding it because it seems to bring out a lot of anger in some people there.
> When it spills over into other threads (we had Trump being blamed because there are hurricanes, for heaven’s sake !), then the animosity has just gone way overboard, in my opinion.
> I think that if people want to discuss politics (or argue about it) then they can start one of the private groups and do it there.  None of it would show up under new posts, and then other current events could actually be discussed in the current events section of the forum.



I think that's a great idea!


----------



## Lolly (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that *discussing *​ politics is fine; but it seems more like a street brawl when I try to read the current events section of this forum; so I have been avoiding it because it seems to bring out a lot of anger in some people there.
> When it spills over into other threads (we had Trump being blamed because there are hurricanes, for heaven’s sake !), then the animosity has just gone way overboard, in my opinion.
> I think that if people want to discuss politics (or argue about it) then they can start one of the private groups and do it there.  None of it would show up under new posts, and then other current events could actually be discussed in the current events section of the forum.



Personally, I think both groups would die out from disinterest.  People will get bored having everyone agree with them..  Part of the appeal of a political forum is the debate. Without that aspect, "preaching to the choir" gets old.  

As I have already said.. Keep the political forum with FAIR moderation... and if that's not possible... then I agree with getting rid of it entirely.  Makes no difference to me.


----------



## Roadwarrior (Sep 22, 2017)

Make it a special group that those who want can join.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that *discussing *​ politics is fine; but it seems more like a street brawl when I try to read the current events section of this forum; so I have been avoiding it because it seems to bring out a lot of anger in some people there.
> When it spills over into other threads (we had Trump being blamed because there are hurricanes, for heaven’s sake !), then the animosity has just gone way overboard, in my opinion.
> I think that if people want to discuss politics (or argue about it) then they can start one of the private groups and do it there.  None of it would show up under new posts, and then other current events could actually be discussed in the current events section of the forum.



I already started a group for this purpose several years ago. It is called Speakers Corner and all topics, all opinions are welcome there with just one or two rules.

This is what I wrote in my first post



> This group has been created to allow for discussion of serious and sometimes controversial topics.
> 
> There is only one rule - remember that behind the username and avatar is a real person, with real feelings.
> People see things differently, have different opinions and wisdom and truth  are never the sole property of one person nor of one political persuasion.
> ...



The other rule I apply is that serious threads be treated seriously. At the time serious threads in the main forum were being constantly derailed with frivolity. It was very frustrating when other posters wanted to explore the topic.

The trouble with a topic in any of the groups is that members of the main forum have to join the group to post and traffic tends to be much less. Topics tend to die for lack of participation.

Any way, feel free to browse _Speakers Corner _to see whether it is a possibility.

https://www.seniorforums.com/group.php?discussionid=5&do=discuss


----------



## ossian (Sep 22, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> That would mean leaving the forum. Do we want that? Its the same gang posting all the time. If it doesnt bother them where is the problem.?
> 
> I don't understand people not participating wanting it banned. You don't have to go there .


I think if some are expressing extremist views, then you can become very uncomfortable that people like that are being tolerated on the board and will leave. Especially when they post disparaging comments about my own nationality.


----------



## Bobw235 (Sep 22, 2017)

I left the forum for a long time after the election in part because of friends who had been banned. I found much of the discussion around politics was distasteful and just unpleasant. One could not have a rational discussion without personal attacks or sarcasm, so I left. I'm back now, but staying out of the political discussions. Those who have seen me here in the past know where my sentiments lie. I'm on the fence about ending the political discussion forum, but opted for banning it. I just know I won't be going there anymore.


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 22, 2017)

I find that the politics forum is a place I can express my views of which I feel are very strongly about...politics and the way we are governed involve all of our lives and are an important part or should be.

Our world is not just made up of fluffy kittens and what brand of coffee we had for breakfast.

I also think, as Nancy said, if Politics are banned, they will creep back into other discussions.....oh well....life is hell... when there are conflicting opinions.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm all for banning politics here.  And everywhere else for that matter.


----------



## Deucemoi (Sep 22, 2017)

i dont read the political forums stuff anymore. there are to many who think they are in the right even when shown wrong but will continue to spout and harang their point till time ends.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 22, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Warrigal declines. You don't want to unleash the Vice Principal in me. A lot of people would be sentenced to writing out lines such as "I must remember that every poster is a human being with genuine feelings". No cut and paste allowed and the finished lines would have to be  hand written and posted as an image.
> 
> Besides, I live in a different time zone. When most members are jousting in the political arena, I am sleeping.
> 
> Seriously though, all that is required is to remember that we are all guests on a forum organised for us by Matrix and SeaBreeze and to behave as well mannered guests. Sometimes we need to have our say, then shut up and allow someone else to have the last word for a change.



Perfect, your resume is impeccable, just the person we need. 

It's the person who_ does not_ want the job,  who is the one that frequently is best for the task.


----------



## Ruth n Jersey (Sep 22, 2017)

The reason I came to this forum is because I could easily eliminate the topics I wasn't interested in. One of which is politics. If others would like to go at it on the political thread I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't spill over into the other threads.


----------



## Shirley (Sep 22, 2017)

Matrix said:


> Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?
> 
> Please take the poll, only two choices: yes or no.





*Yes*


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 22, 2017)

We are all big boys here.  I don't know why anyone would be upset with a political forum.

I haven't seen anything posted worth worrying about.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 22, 2017)

Matrix said:


> If it can be discussed in a civil manner, I'm all for it.
> 
> Unfortunately moderating politics into a friendly forum is mission impossible, it's against the nature of politics. I'm at my wit's end.


I understand what you mean.  I'm  for banning it.


----------



## Trade (Sep 22, 2017)

Wow! It's a close race! 25-24 for keeping it!

I'm going to stay on the fence and see what kind of offers I can get for my vote.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Trade said:


> Wow! It's a close race! 25-24 for keeping it!
> 
> I'm going to stay on the fence and see what kind of offers I can get for my vote.



Haha, nothing from me...I promised myself I'd behave. 

I am going to go and campaign for what I want the vote to be ....elsewhere.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 22, 2017)

Trade said:


> Wow! It's a close race! 25-24 for keeping it!
> 
> I'm going to stay on the fence and see what kind of offers I can get for my vote.



Our friends Boris and Natasha will be contacting you soon with your instructions.


----------



## exwisehe (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm for keeping it.  I read them all and learn a lot from them.

There are a lot of knowledgeable persons here, and I especially like the links that are offered and usually read all of them.

So, keep them coming.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 22, 2017)

What? The FBI has just made a dawn raiding on my apartment and picked the lock.

Looking for evidence that I conspired with the Russians.:notfair:

To pay off Trade.


----------



## helenbacque (Sep 22, 2017)

Good mental health depends on a certain amount of social interaction, or so I'm told.  Many older retirees lack that due to circumstances, desire or even through habit.  A forum such as this can provide it to some degree by being an outlet to simply chat with a peer group, share thoughts and ideas and engage in conversation with others who have similar interests.   We should be able to do so freely without fear of reproach or censure. 

It's obvious that we are a very diverse group in sex, background, education, interests, basic character and current situations so naturally our interests and forms of expression are diverse as well.  As adults, our personal interests can and do vary from mundane to ridiculous to obscene and we are allowed to explore all, to form opinions as we wish and to express those opinions within bounds.   Strong opinions expressed face-to-face are governed by common courtesy, innate decency and social etiquette.  However, internet anonymity allows expression to run amok with no governing.   

Personally, I'm inclined to be tolerant of abusive, vicious behavior here because I feel it might give a much needed outlet to disturbed thoughts or feelings and might keep someone from expressing them in another form in real life circumstances.  If an outlet is needed, this is safer and less likely to cause material harm to others.  Thankfully, I can be tolerant without engaging in the battle.  When the thread turns vicious or needlessly repetitive, I simply move on.

But unless it is an outlet for disturbed thoughts, what's the point in being verbally abusive?  Someone who has formed firm opinions is unlikely to change them as the results of harsh or abusive words.  Present your facts and argue your point, of course, but what is to be accomplished by abusive behavior?  Discuss the point at will but, in the end, we must all simply agree to disagree and that's OK.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 22, 2017)

It is now a tie!  25 to 25.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 22, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> It is now a tie!  25 to 25.



I broke the tie-  plz keep it!  
Sometimes I read and/or comment, sometimes not, but it's always interesting with interesting topics.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 22, 2017)

helenbacque said:


> Good mental health depends on a certain amount of social interaction, or so I'm told.  Many older retirees lack that due to circumstances, desire or even through habit.  A forum such as this can provide it to some degree by being an outlet to simply chat with a peer group, share thoughts and ideas and engage in conversation with others who have similar interests.   We should be able to do so freely without fear of reproach or censure.
> 
> It's obvious that we are a very diverse group in sex, background, education, interests, basic character and current situations so naturally our interests and forms of expression are diverse as well.  As adults, our personal interests can and do vary from mundane to ridiculous to obscene and we are allowed to explore all, to form opinions as we wish and to express those opinions within bounds.   Strong opinions expressed face-to-face are governed by common courtesy, innate decency and social etiquette.  However, internet anonymity allows expression to run amok with no governing.
> 
> ...


Very nice but who does that in the Political Forum?  I mean who listens to reason??


----------



## exwisehe (Sep 22, 2017)

I do.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 22, 2017)

exwisehe said:


> I do.


You are unique!


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 22, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Seriously though, all that is required is to remember that we are all guests on a forum organised for us by Matrix and SeaBreeze and to behave as well mannered guests. Sometimes we need to have our say, then shut up and allow someone else to have the last word for a change.


I agree but seriously it seems like a very hard thing for folks to do here or anywhere involving politics; I don't know why but that is the way it is in this country.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 22, 2017)

Anyone take into consideration that some old folks just love to bicker and argue?  Doesn't mean anything...


----------



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 22, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Anyone take into consideration that some old folks just love to bicker and argue?  Doesn't mean anything...



Thar ya go!  Referencing my forum name!!!!  I earned it!!!!!


----------



## Lara (Sep 22, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> Very nice but who does that in the Political Forum?  I mean who listens to reason??


I do.

Btw, have you all noticed that over 50, over50's senior members, have voted and it's 50/50...that must be unprecedented

`


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 22, 2017)

Here's a radical thought - keep the political forum but do not allow the use of names or reference to any person or political party.  Discuss ideas instead of personalities.  Build a wall, don't build a wall.  Keep DACA, get rid of DACA.  Repeal ACA, keep ACA.  Open boarders, impose travel ban.  

Never mind.  It would never work.   (I need an emoji of me dope slapping myself...)


----------



## Lara (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that if people want to discuss politics (or argue about it) then they can start one of the private groups and do it there.  None of it would show up under new posts, and then other current events could actually be discussed in the current events section of the forum.


^^^ You're funny Hoot (but not a "dope" lol). 

I think Happyflowerlady's "Private Groups" idea is the best one so far and Matrix already has a Private Group for Politics on his profile page called "Speaker's Corner".  It would take newbies awhile to find "Private Groups" in member's profiles so we wouldn't lose them right away (as when they used to enter the Politics forum and see members bickering). 

And the other members who have been here for years wouldn't get tired of seeing bickering and sometimes ugly posts under the "New Posts" option in the Toolbar above. Yet those who want to discuss politics can join the private groups on member's profile pages.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Hoot N Annie said:


> Here's a radical thought - keep the political forum but do not allow the use of names or reference to any person or political party.  Discuss ideas instead of personalities.  Build a wall, don't build a wall.  Keep DACA, get rid of DACA.  Repeal ACA, keep ACA.  Open boarders, impose travel ban.
> 
> Never mind.  It would never work.   (I need an emoji of me dope slapping myself...)



Heres one....




Edit:  that was supposed to be a gif but didn't work....oh well.


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Sep 22, 2017)

Lara said:


> I do.
> 
> Btw, have you all noticed that over 50, over50's senior members, have voted and it's 50/50...that must be unprecedented
> 
> `



Ha! That's pretty funny...but not helpful, right?


----------



## hangover (Sep 22, 2017)

The left and right has been fighting since the Civil War....fighting solves nothing. Everyone hates one side or the other. Everybody hates congress except the corporations that own it. If We are ever going to truly going to become the UNITED STATES, we all need to be independent voters and leaders, not chained to party or ideology.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 22, 2017)

Lara said:


> ^^^ You're funny Hoot (but not a "dope" lol).
> I think Happyflowerlady's "Private Groups" idea is the best one so far and Matrix already has a Private Group for Politics on his profile page called "Speaker's Corner".  It would take newbies awhile to find "Private Groups" in member's profiles so we wouldn't lose them right away (as when they used to enter the Politics forum and see members bickering).
> And the other members who have been here for years wouldn't get tired of seeing bickering and sometimes ugly posts under the "New Posts" option in the Toolbar above. Yet those who want to discuss politics can join the private groups on member's profile pages.



Actually, the Speaker’s Corner group is Warrigal’s group, and she is the one who moderates this group. I am totally in favor of letting the discussion of politics and other controversial topics be in this group. 
There have already been several people who suggested that Warri moderate the political forum, and she declined; but if it were happening in her group instead, then she would be moderating the political discussions. 
I think that this would also take a lot of the pressure off of Matrix and SeaBreeze of trying to allow a political forum and still stop the in-fighting that happens there. 
It seems to me like it would be a win-win solution all of the way around. The people who like political debates can still have them, so it would not have to be banned completely, and the people who are not interested in those threads would not have it in their news feeds. 
There are already over 60 members in this group (although some are probably not active) and more would undoubtedly join just to be involved in the discussions.


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 22, 2017)

There is already a way to avoid any forum you do not want to see that is in place now....all you have to do is follow the instructions.....if you are so offended, it should be no problem
for the offended to use rather than limiting or removing people that do post and read on the politics forum every day.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/13016-Filtering-out-game-threads


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 22, 2017)

Jackie22 said:


> There is already a way to avoid any forum you do not want to see that is in place now....all you have to do is follow the instructions.....if you are so offended, it should be no problem
> for the offended to use rather than limiting or removing people that do post and read on the politics forum every day.
> https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/13016-Filtering-out-game-threads



This process has ALWAYS been on this forum, and it seems not to have helped thus far. This has been brought up every single time that Matrix  has had to deal with the ugliness in the political forums, and it still continues to be something that he and SeaBreeze have to contend with periodically. 
I think that it is time for a better resolution.


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> This process has ALWAYS been on this forum, and it seems not to have helped thus far. This has been brought up every single time that Matrix  has had to deal with the ugliness in the political forums, and it still continues to be something that he and SeaBreeze have to contend with periodically.
> I think that it is time for a better resolution.



Could it be that its not working because the offended are not using it.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 22, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Anyone take into consideration that some old folks just love to bicker and argue?  Doesn't mean anything...



Excellent point, Lolly.
 Maybe , however, the ones who just want to discuss something without the “bickering and arguing” should also be able to do that as well. 
That way, you could all have your little arguments, and those of us who want to discuss issues could do that without all of the bickering. 
This is really not much different than the ones who used to throw the topic off-track by being facetious or flirting, bickering still hinders intelligent discussion of any topic.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Jackie22 said:


> Could it be that its not working because the offended are not using it.




Im using it but it doesn't work if you like to view the forum as I do.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Excellent point, Lolly.
> Maybe , however, the ones who just want to discuss something without the “bickering and arguing” should also be able to do that as well.
> That way, you could all have your little arguments, and those of us who want to discuss issues could do that without all of the bickering.
> This is really not much different than the ones who used to throw the topic off-track by being facetious or flirting, bickering still hinders intelligent discussion of any topic.


Yes. There is a big difference between arguing and bickering. I like to argue a point but having made a point, I see no value in fighting with another poster who see things differently. I have had to remind myself of this on occasions when I have been caught up in some prolonged to and fro interchanges.


----------



## Sunny (Sep 22, 2017)

One thing about these opinion polls always puzzles me. Is there some kind of safeguard to prevent anyone from voting more than once?


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Yes. There is a big difference between arguing and bickering. I like to argue a point but having made a point, I see no value in fighting with another poster who see things differently. I have had to remind myself of this on occasions when I have been caught up in some prolonged to and fro interchanges.




If it comes to politics being a group, I think you and HappyFlowerLady would make excellent mods.  You are both fair and don't get nasty.

It would be fair and balanced.  Warri leans left...HFL leans right.  It's perfect! 

Hope Yvonne doesn't get upset that I suggested her.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Sep 22, 2017)

Hoot N Annie said:


> Here's a radical thought - keep the political forum but do not allow the use of names or reference to any person or political party.  Discuss ideas instead of personalities.  Build a wall, don't build a wall.  Keep DACA, get rid of DACA.  Repeal ACA, keep ACA.  Open boarders, impose travel ban.
> 
> Never mind.  It would never work.   (I need an emoji of me dope slapping myself...)



Great idea Hoot, but don't think people would be able to do that unfortunately.  :crying:


----------



## SeaBreeze (Sep 22, 2017)

Sunny said:


> One thing about these opinion polls always puzzles me. Is there some kind of safeguard to prevent anyone from voting more than once?



It says in the upper right hand corner of the Poll results Sunny, that 'you've already voted in this poll', so each member can only vote once here.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Sunny said:


> One thing about these opinion polls always puzzles me. Is there some kind of safeguard to prevent anyone from voting more than once?




Matrix and Seabreeze can see who voted and for what.  Ive been a global mod on another forum and I could see that info.  I'm sure they can also.


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 22, 2017)

"Im using it but it doesn't work if you like to view the forum as I do."

Yes, that is your choice, Cee Cee, but the option is there for all to use.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 22, 2017)

Jackie22 said:


> "Im using it but it doesn't work if you like to view the forum as I do."
> Yes, that is your choice, Cee Cee, but the option is there for all to use.



Why should it be the ones who are offended by “bickering and arguing” who have to do all of the changing ?  
By this reasoning, if there are bullies on the playground, the rest of the kids should just find someplace else to play and let the bullies have the playground. 
Same difference, Jackie22.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 22, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Why should it be the ones who are offended by “bickering and arguing” who have to do all of the changing ?
> By this reasoning, if there are bullies on the playground, the rest of the kids should just find someplace else to play and let the bullies have the playground.
> Same difference, Jackie22.



On the other hand... there are 27 forums on SF that people are all welcome to use and enjoy...  the Politics forum us only one of the 27... some enjoy it.. some don't..  I don't enjoy many of the 27 so I simply don't read them.  Those not enjoying political debate have 26 other forums to choose from.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 22, 2017)

Lolly said:


> On the other hand... there are 27 forums on SF that people are all welcome to use and enjoy...  the Politics forum us only one of the 27... some enjoy it.. some don't..  I don't enjoy many of the 27 so I simply don't read them.  Those not enjoying political debate have 26 other forums to choose from.




The issue isn't that we don't enjoy politics, the issue is how ugly and nasty it gets.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 22, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> The issue isn't that we don't enjoy politics, the issue is how ugly and nasty it gets.



So are you saying you would participate in the political discussions if they didn't get nasty or ugly?


----------



## mimento mori (Sep 22, 2017)

The only objective a political board on a forum is to allow people who do not otherwise believe they have a voice in the real world somehow believe they are being heard on a public forum.  Nothing can be further from the truth because after a bit of bickering and repetition the robots will fail to pick up anything that anyone else will read other than those on the forum itself. 

Rarely do real honest facts appear since most people get their political information from heresay and when facts do appear there are always those who for lack of anything else to defend their stance, will resort to berating the fact finders. 

Note:  No one likes to be found incorrect or their personal stance to be found unpopular and there are some who will defend their position, right or wrong, by offering up nothing more than denegrating rhetoric which does nothing in the way of winning friends and influencing people. 

The logo for this forum stresses that "friendly" people are here and looking at some of the past posts is what took me so long to join.  After watching for a couple of years, it looked like some changes were being made for the better and from my position, the political board is the only black eye this forum suffers.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 22, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> The issue isn't that we don't enjoy politics, the issue is how ugly and nasty it gets.



Actually politics on SF is really rather mild in comparison to other places. For one thing verbal abuse is rare not too hard to ignore. We even have an 'ignore' function for us to use.

I appreciate the fact that this forum is fairly evenly balanced when it comes to political opinions. On other forums I have participated in there has been a tendency for the overwhelming majority of posters to be supporters of the same side of politics. This results in posters seldom hearing a dissenting opinion. Either way, left or right leaning, I find little to interest me. I'm either preaching to the choir or f**ting against thunder as my dear mother would say.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 22, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Actually politics on SF is really rather mild in comparison to other places. For one thing verbal abuse is rare not too hard to ignore. We even have an 'ignore' function for us to use.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that this forum is fairly evenly balanced when it comes to political opinions. On other forums I have participated in there has been a tendency for the overwhelming majority of posters to be supporters of the same side of politics. This results in posters seldom hearing a dissenting opinion. Either way, left or right leaning, I find little to interest me. I'm either preaching to the choir or f**ting against thunder as my dear mother would say.




SF is certainly mild compared to all the forums I've visited that have a political section.  That's why I hate to see the political forum closed here, no real alternatives as many have such hopelessly toxic environments.

I hope that if the final poll tally gives the "yes, ban it" faction a simple majority, it is* not *necessarily binding.

 Frankly thought conditions were improving in the Political section, compared to the last several months.  ??   Goings on behind the scenes, that isn't readily apparent...?

I've seen forums with a lot less traffic have a lot more mods that SF does, perhaps recruiting another mod is in order.


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 23, 2017)

As I've said before, I think the political section serves an excellent purpose in allowing folks to express their opinions.  I've learned quite a bit as a result of participating in it.  For one thing, sometimes it provides a question that  "grabs" me and I go off in to googleland to research the issue.  For instance, I gained a lot of knowledge about congressional procedure from researching questions of "what happens if" and "what does this mean" and so forth.  

I also believe it gives many of us a chance to think and engage in what is going on around us, which is important in many ways, especially to those who don't have much of a social life, for whatever reason.  Putting a subject off limits the community aspect of the forum, and I  believe that lessens its value.

Many of us do not participate in all the forums, but I think the politics forum is a good one.  I don't see anything intrinsically wrong in "bickering," as long as it does not descend into ridicule and calling one another idiots and so on.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

When I first joined SF , I said to myself ,finally a good political forum with no personal attacks and posters sticking to the topic.

No longer. Finding having to defend against personal comments instead of the topic.

I will always defend myself come hell or high water. If it means being banned or the forum closed so be it.

The golden rule should be 'Stick to the topic not the poster'.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> I'm not being facetious, but I seriously would consider Warrigal, if she be willing.





Butterfly said:


> Warri would be a good choice.  She's  even-tempered, fair, and not a member of either political party.


First, Warri had to give up posting in politics to moderate it, it's not a good idea to be a referee and a player at the same time. Second, Warri is clearly on one side. 



Camper6 said:


> I'm wondering. Have you had complaints or is this a concern of your own? This is the second time around isn't it.


My own concern, I have tried everything I can. It's crystal clear to me that politics is poison to this forum. 



Wren said:


> I rarely read political posts  but feel a site should offer a wide range of topics to suit all members, *as long they respect each other's point of view* *and things don't get nasty*...


 It's pretty much work the same way with politics in real life, can you imagine Trump supports and Hillary supporters respect each other?


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Sep 23, 2017)

"...can you  imagine Trump supports and Hillary supporters respect each other?"

That's an excellent point.


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix said:


> First, Warri had to give up posting in politics to moderate it, it's not a good idea to be a referee and a player at the same time. Second, Warri is clearly on one side.
> 
> 
> My own concern, I have tried everything I can. It's crystal clear to me that politics is poison to this forum.
> ...


As a former Adim/Mod, I know what you 2 are going through daily!! The forum I was on had roughly 30 Mods to cover the 24 hour shifts..Not only for politics and/religion but to control the never ending spamming!!!
Any, even slight mention, of politics/religion the post/thread would be deleted and a warning PM sent to the poster!! The forum has thousands of active members and they all know and respect the rules!!


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Six pages and 80 posts.... it's pretty clear Matrix, that you are planning on banning the political forum... SO DO IT already!!....  You have been complaining long enough about it. Let the people desiring political debate find other forums and let SF carry on in the vision you intend..  Only by banning it completely will you be able to learn what that action is going to do to your site... either for the better..... or the worse..


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> 1.)  Domestic and global politics has an impact on senior citizens, our children, our grandchildren, and our Country.  I believe it's important to have the opportunity to discuss politics on a senior citizen forum.


I agree, but a balanced political forum will never work out. 



> 2.)  I agree with a couple of the posters that what one clicks on or reads on a discussion board are at their own "risk".  If one does not believe the political forum or any specific thread on that forum agrees with their political beliefs, they are not forced to click on it.


It's more about those who post in politics, when they post in non-politics forum, the hard feelings won't miraculously disappear. 



> 3.)  So many discussion boards are weighted heavily towards one side or the other.


I have come to exactly the same conclusion: this is the only way a political forum can work out, it must be on one side. If a senior forum allows politics, it has to be a "Republican Senior Forum" or a "Democrat Senior Forum". There is no middle ground.

I have tried heavy moderation to keep SF friendly, I don't mind the work involved or being hated by some members, but after I banned 2/3 politics posters, I started to wonder if it's worth it. I built SF for seniors to hang out, these banned members are good people, why don't we ban politics instead of good members? 

I have been trying light moderation in the past few weeks, not surprisingly it's getting hastier day by day. This is even worse than heavy moderation. 




> p.s.  I do not know the capabilities of this board's software.  Two other discussion boards I post to have political forums.  Both are sports boards.  Their political forums are "hidden".  A member must request permission to have access to the political discussion and can, likewise, opt out at any time.  I have not opted in to either board's political discussion because I believe the board's purpose is discussion of and support of that particular sport.  SF's mission, I would imagine, is support and interest for seniors.  Politics can be important to seniors.  Yet, if it were possible to have that forum "hidden" where those who wanted to participate could, maybe that would be a "compromise".


This is similar to my last solution I wanted to try. We create two private hidden forums: one for democrats and one for republicans, democrats choose their own mods, other members can apply to join one or both forums. By this way, there won't be hard feelings, if the democrat forum doesn't like how a republican member posts, they can simply remove him.

But on a second thought, it would be quite boring if every participants agree with each other and their posts can't be read by all members and guests.


----------



## IKE (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix said:


> My own concern, I have tried everything I can. It's crystal clear to me that politics is poison to this forum.



I have my own feelings about politics, religion and racial issues and I don't have a desire to argue back and forth about how or why I feel the way I do, it serves no purpose.......think about it, because of arguing back and forth on a computer how many that like or dislike Obama, HRC, Trump their policies or their personalities have actually been convinced to change their minds ?......I'd be willing to bet that the number is real close to zero.

Although I very rarely post (but do sometimes read them) I can see where being a referee / moderator on the Politics Forum would be a real pain in the a$$ and time consuming......I for one would not want to put up with the aggravation.

The bottom line Matrix, no matter what the poll results show, is that it's......'Your Site and Your Rules', do what you feel needs to be done for the good of Senior Forums as a whole.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

> ..I'd be willing to bet that the number is real close to zero.



Not close.  It's zero.

If I was a moderator? Zero tolerance.   The first personal attack and it would be goodbye politics or any other forum.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> I enjoy the political forum... but it does need moderating...  and the moderator should be fair and unbiased.. rules should apply to everyone equally, and everyone should be aware of them.


That's the problem, isn't it? I was viewed as a republican by many members, but outside this forum SF was regarded as a democrat forum. When many members reported BobF's posts and wanted him to be banned, but he was actually the only republican member posting in politics for quite a while, how could I be fairer to democrats? 

I don't like the hatred and negativity in the politics forum, unfortunately it happened to be from democrats because of Trump. If Obama was still the president, the negativity would be from republican members, but before Trump announced his campaign, the political forum was peaceful and friendly. 

I'm always wondering who is wise enough to judge if a mod is fair or not, and how.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Not close.  It's zero.
> 
> If I was a moderator? Zero tolerance.   The first personal attack and it would be goodbye politics or any other forum.



This IMO is the problem..    The term PERSONAL ATTACK has to be clearly defined..  and I mean in no uncertain terms...  Unfortunately some folks view a disagreement with their views as a personal attack...  which is not the case...  We have many people that believe someone strongly defending their personal views as being nasty or guilty of personal attacks..  I'm not going to name names... but we KNOW who those people are...     That of course is not the case.. but you cannot convince people of it ..


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix said:


> That's the problem, isn't it? I was viewed as a republican by many members, but outside this forum SF was regarded as a democrat forum. When many members reported BobF's posts and wanted him to be banned, but he was actually the only republican member posting in politics for quite a while, how could I be fairer to democrats?
> 
> I'm always wondering who is wise enough to know if a mod is fair or not, and how.


 
They wanted BobF to be banned?  Really?  I am shocked.  Preaching to the choir is fun?

Well then.  I'm surprised at the poll results so far.  It would seem to me to be a foregone conclusion as to which way the vote would go.

Oh by the way.  Putting someone on ignore doesn't work because it screws up the thread.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix said:


> That's the problem, isn't it? I was viewed as a republican by many members, but outside this forum SF was regarded as a democrat forum. When many members reported BobF's posts and wanted him to be banned, but he was actually the only republican member posting in politics for quite a while, how could I be fairer to democrats?
> 
> I don't like the hatred and negativity in the politics forum, unfortunately it happened to be from democrats because of Trump. If Obama was still the president, the negativity would be from republican members, but before Trump announced his campaign, the political forum was peaceful and friendly.
> 
> I'm always wondering who is wise enough to know if a mod is fair or not, and how.



Since this thread is an airing of feelings... No Matrix.... you are not viewed as being fair at all...  at least not by the more liberal posters... Which is why, when all is said and done... I think you should ban the political forum and let the chips fall where they may.  I did vote to keep it... but.. events of the last few days have made me change my mind.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Actually politics on SF is really rather mild in comparison to other places. For one thing verbal abuse is rare not too hard to ignore. We even have an 'ignore' function for us to use.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that this forum is fairly evenly balanced when it comes to political opinions. On other forums I have participated in there has been a tendency for the overwhelming majority of posters to be supporters of the same side of politics. This results in posters seldom hearing a dissenting opinion. Either way, left or right leaning, I find little to interest me. I'm either preaching to the choir or f**ting against thunder as my dear mother would say.




Yes, there are nastier forums when it comes to politics.  Most of you wouldn't last a day on them. 

They are also very big and there really isn't a sense of community like there is on here.  I just feel that the nastiness in politics spills over into the nice part of the forum.

Like I said before, if you call me a racist and a nazi just because I voted for Trump, I'm going to avoid you in the post about puppies.  Human nature.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm laughing at your comment.



> Like I said before, if you call me a racist and a nazi just because I  voted for Trump, I'm going to avoid you in the post about puppies.   Human nature.



Why.? Even Hitler had a dog that he loved and the dog loved him.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> This IMO is the problem..    The term PERSONAL ATTACK has to be clearly defined..  and I mean in no uncertain terms...  Unfortunately some folks view a disagreement with their views as a personal attack...  which is not the case...  We have many people that believe someone strongly defending their personal views as being nasty or guilty of personal attacks..  I'm not going to name names... but we KNOW who those people are...     That of course is not the case.. but you cannot convince people of it ..



I guess I'm one of those people.

I don't understand the need to engage other posters in an effort to defend personal views or to paint all members of a political party with the same broad brush.  It may not be the definition of a personal attack but it does make for tedious and often unpleasant exchanges that don't appear to accomplish anything.

Maybe you are right, maybe it is time to close the political forum.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I guess I'm one of those people.
> 
> I don't understand the need to engage other posters in an effort to defend personal views or to paint all members of a political party with the same broad brush.  It may not be a the definition of a personal attack but it does make for tedious and often unpleasant exchanges that don't appear to accomplish anything.
> 
> Maybe you are right, maybe it is time to close the political forum.



I understand.... this is why I stated that the term PERSONAL attack needs to be clearly defined so there is no room for doubt or interpretation.  Just exactly what is fair game and what isn't...  What one poster thinks is nasty.. another may think it's simply defending a position.  Some folks take things way to personally and some insist on pushing the boundaries.   Some.. don't even know when they are crossing a line.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I'm laughing at your comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Why.? Even Hitler had a dog that he loved and the dog loved him.




Ha ha but my point is that if you call me a racist for no other reason than who I voted for, I probably don't like you.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> Ha ha but my point is that if you call me a racist for no other reason than who I voted for, I probably don't like you.



Yes... absolutely... which is why terms like...  "ALL Trump voters".....  Or "SNOWFLAKES"   or   "Libtards"...   Or  "Far Right whackos"   "Kool aid drinkers"  "Lefties"   should be banned, because if you are a Trump voter... Or a Liberal... it's hard to NOT take that as a personal attack..

And this is the last I have to say on the matter......  The ball is in Matrix's court now...  Whatever happens.. happens.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

Hoot N Annie said:


> Here's a radical thought - keep the political forum but do not allow the use of names or reference to any person or political party.  Discuss ideas instead of personalities.  Build a wall, don't build a wall.  Keep DACA, get rid of DACA.  Repeal ACA, keep ACA.  Open boarders, impose travel ban.
> 
> Never mind.  It would never work.   (I need an emoji of me dope slapping myself...)


I did consider this, I called it partial ban, but is it easier to follow than "no personal attacks" or "no comment on posters"? My answer was no.  We can come up with perfect rules, but when it comes to politics, people get emotional and ignore any rules. 



Sunny said:


> One thing about these opinion polls always puzzles me. Is there some kind of safeguard to prevent anyone from voting more than once?


One member can only vote once.



CeeCee said:


> Matrix and Seabreeze can see who voted and for what.  Ive been a global mod on another forum and I could see that info.  I'm sure they can also.


I don't see who voted what. Maybe it's possible in admin panel, but I wouldn't bother. No point doing it.



Warrigal said:


> Actually politics on SF is really rather mild in comparison to other places. For one thing verbal abuse is rare not too hard to ignore. We even have an 'ignore' function for us to use.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that this forum is fairly evenly balanced when it comes to political opinions. On other forums I have participated in there has been a tendency for the overwhelming majority of posters to be supporters of the same side of politics.


It's at the cost of banning many members. Banning politics or members? 



tnthomas said:


> I've seen forums with a lot less traffic have a lot more mods that SF does, perhaps recruiting another mod is in order.


If we ban politics, it's not because we are overloaded by moderation, more mods is not a good thing.



Butterfly said:


> but I think the politics forum is a good one.  I don't see anything intrinsically wrong in "bickering," *as long as it does not descend into ridicule and calling one another idiots and so on.*


 It's inevitable. If we enforce the rules, we probably have to ban everyone.



Camper6 said:


> The golden rule should be 'Stick to the topic not the poster'.


It's a great rule, but what would you do if the members don't follow it? Ban them?  



CeeCee said:


> Like I said before, if you call me a racist and a nazi just because I voted for Trump, I'm going to avoid you in the post about puppies.  Human nature.


This is exactly why I want to ban politics.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Yes... absolutely... which is why terms like...  "ALL Trump voters".....  Or "SNOWFLAKES"   or   "Libtards"...   Or  "Far Right whackos"   "Kool aid drinkers"  "Lefties"   should be banned, because if you are a Trump voter... Or a Liberal... it's hard to NOT take that as a personal attack..
> 
> And this is the last I have to say on the matter......  The ball is in Matrix's court now...  Whatever happens.. happens.



I agree with you.  If all that could be left out of the discussions that would be great.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

> It's a great rule, but what would you do if the members don't follow it? Ban them?



Ban  them from the political forum.  Hide the political forum from those that don't like politics.

A forum is not complete without politics.  They are part of our every day life.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> Ha ha but my point is that if you call me a racist for no other reason than who I voted for, I probably don't like you.



That doesn't bother me at all.  If someone makes a comment in the political forum and then asks a question about television or needs some help or advice.  It doesn't bother me at all because I understand politics and political forums.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 23, 2017)

It appears to me that there are about three categories of people here. 
The first bunch includes the ones that think arguments and bickering are just fine in the political threads, and they enjoy this type of thing. 
The second bunch includes people who are interested in discussing what is happening politically; but do not want it to turn into an argument, and the third bunch are the ones who do not want to discuss politics at all, and especially hate it when the arguments carry over into the rest of the forum. 
There is probably NO solution that is going to please everyone here, just because there is so much difference in what people actually want from the forum. 
I would like to see politics left in the forum, but I hate the arguments; so I personally am in the second group. 

What about the possibility of making the political area private, and people have to “Belong” to that area before they can see what is posted there, and a notice of “enter at your own risk” type of announcement that would let people know that anything goes inside of that part of the forum. 
Then , just let people do the arguing that they want to, and don’t even worry about moderation there. 
For the ones who want to discuss and not argue, there is always Speaker’s Corner, and for the ones who want to avoid politics altogether, it simply would not even show up on the forum for them. 
Then, if politics carries over into the other sections of the forum (such as something in entertainment or current events) that is even remotely political, it can be reported and deleted. 

This way, no one needs to be banned, moderation of the forum should be simpler, and both sides will get what they want, for the most part.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> That doesn't bother me at all.  If someone makes a comment in the political forum and then asks a question about television or needs some help or advice.  It doesn't bother me at all because I understand politics and political forums.



Im sure there are a few people like you but for the most part there is a clique mentality on forums and a whole side that's behind the scenes as in PMs, emails, etc.   kind of an undercurrent.

Ive been a part of that here and on other forums and I'm done with that, it's just ugly.  I made a public apology on another forum and now I'm the new and improved version of CC.  Slightly off topic with this but for most that's where it leads.

Im also not talking about the asking for help threads....if I can help, I will...doesn't matter that you called me a racist and nazi.


----------



## Gemma (Sep 23, 2017)

I voted no, keep it.

There are some members here that only post in the political section.  If politics were banned, there will be a loss of those members.  

IMHO, it's time for this forum to come up with better TOS (terms of service) and have them posted as a sticky where all members can see and read them.  Even direct newcomers to that thread, if need be.  

Only 2 rules are really needed....

#1 rule should be, "Be civil." If there was just one rule, that would be it.  SF is not here to be anyone's personal battleground.  This Golden rule should apply.  People who embark on personal attacks or are unable to comment on the CONTENT but instead go after the poster are not welcome here. This is a place for friends to gather.  If they are unable to cope with a friendly and supportive atmosphere, then leave.  Friendliness counts and it will determine whether or not you have an account here.

#2  "No Flaming."  Do not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle threaten or flame another member.

Both, direct and to the point and not hard to comprehend at all.

Another thing I have to question Matrix...Why would a moderator over politics have to refrain from posting in that forum?  They should have the right to freedom of speech, to be able to express them self and also be able to keep within the TOS doing so, if they are a good moderator.  

Just my two cents.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Gemma said:


> I voted no, keep it.
> 
> There are some members here that only post in the political section.  If politics were banned, there will be a loss of those members.
> 
> ...



Those have always been the rules but they're not followed.  Both sides are to blame or at fault.


----------



## Gemma (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> Those have always been the rules but they're not followed.  Both sides are to blame.



Then that's the administrators fault for not adhering to the rules set forth for their boards.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Gemma said:


> Then that's the administrators fault for not adhering to the rules set forth for their boards.



I think Matrix has done the best he could, many were banned but that's not a solution either for a forum.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

Gemma said:


> There are some members here that only post in the political section. If politics were banned, there will be a loss of those members.


If they only post in politics, a dedicated political forum would be a better place for them.



> IMHO, it's time for this forum to come up with better TOS (terms of service) and have them posted as a sticky where all members can see and read them. Even direct newcomers to that thread, if need be.
> 
> Only 2 rules are really needed....
> 
> ...


You can come up with all perfect rules, it all comes down how to enforce them. Unless you are ready to ban many members, the rules are just some meaningless text.



> Another thing I have to question Matrix...Why would a moderator over politics have to refrain from posting in that forum? They should have the right to freedom of speech, to be able to express them self and also be able to keep within the TOS doing so, if they are a good moderator.


Intensive debate in politics doesn't affect one's judgement? Remember politics is emotional, intense, personal, rude, confrontational, personal attacks, it brings out the worst of a person, you expect someone who is involved to be fair? 

If a mod has different views than yours, he can edit/remove your posts or even ban you as he wants, when your post was moderated by him, you still think he is fair?


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> I think Matrix has done the best he could, many were banned but that's not a solution either for a forum.


Exactly ! Banning members can also tear a forum apart. Maybe just banning them from the political forum for a month would work because then they would still be part of the forum and could post in other sections, and then come back and have another chance. 
Each person has their own interpretation of what is being civil, and even what is flaming, and once the first arrow is launched, then the whole section of the forum usually gets involved; so then it is hard to single out specific flamers. 

Blaming the administrator is not right either. There have ALWAYS been exactly the kinds of rules that you are suggesting, Gemma, and if you look, there are many, many updates where both Matrix and SeaBreeze have once again pointed out the rules and asked people to follow them.  
As seniors, we should all be able to comply with the rules of a forum. The admin should not be forced to try and police every single thread, or have to ban people for non-following of rules.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Exactly ! Banning members can also tear a forum apart. Maybe just banning them from the political forum for a month would work because then they would still be part of the forum and could post in other sections, and then come back and have another chance.
> Each person has their own interpretation of what is being civil, and even what is flaming, and once the first arrow is launched, then the whole section of the forum usually gets involved; so then it is hard to single out specific flamers.
> 
> Blaming the administrator is not right either. There have ALWAYS been exactly the kinds of rules that you are suggesting, Gemma, and if you look, there are many, many updates where both Matrix and SeaBreeze have once again pointed out the rules and asked people to follow them.
> As seniors, we should all be able to comply with the rules of a forum. The admin should not be forced to try and police every single thread, or have to ban people for non-following of rules.




Well said HFL, my thoughts exactly but you word them much better.


----------



## mimento mori (Sep 23, 2017)

Case in point.  Could your statement regarding the administrator be considered "belittling"?  He does the best he can but somehow you believe he is not doing his job.  Is that placing the blame on him for what a wayward poster might be writing?  

Here's the thing:  In this case you might have insulted someone over something trivial to you, but not so to him.  The problem is that whether or not something is meant harshly or just a passing comment, political boards always bring out those types of comments.


----------



## RadishRose (Sep 23, 2017)

The advice to just "walk on by" or "ignore the Politics Forum" is something I took for a long time. I came to resent having to do so when I wanted to learn, simply because some elderly people behave as if they were in the school yard.

It's not fair for others to miss out on one of our Forums because the bullies and their rudeness can't be controlled. It's amazing; the insulting manner, the sarcasm and the childish behavior seen here at times.

It's amazing how far off topic they go.

Always having to have the last word, phrases like "What's it to you" and outright admissions of wanting a place to argue tell me that sequestering to another area won't stop the bad behavior. Bottom line is the same. Others are afraid to venture or even speak, for fear of verbal abuse.

If those members love arguing so much or cannot behave like adults, let them go to another political forum but stay here for other topics .

More moderation would definitely help and may just be the answer. Perhaps just two people are not enough, especially regarding politics and government. I don't think it's fair to expect just 2 people to handle it all, as long as people are incapable of monitoring themselves.


----------



## Marie5656 (Sep 23, 2017)

*I had voted to keep it, though I have it blocked.  But once I read more, especially about your moderation dilemma, maybe a good idea to let it go. Though there would then be the issue of people bringing the political discussions to the main forum.  So it would be a Catch-22.  I used to be a forum moderator many years ago, so I can understand how  hard it could be to keep the peace.*


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Gemma said:


> Then that's the administrators fault for not adhering to the rules set forth for their boards.



You can't expect the moderators to spend all their time chasing posters.


----------



## neotheone (Sep 23, 2017)

Marie5656 said:


> I had voted to keep it, though I have it blocked.  But once I read more, especially about your moderation dilemma, maybe a good idea to let it go. Though there would then be the issue of people bringing the political discussions to the main forum.  So it would be a Catch-22.  I used to be a forum moderator many years ago, so I can understand how  hard it could be to keep the peace.



I've admin'd a couple forums in the past, making spammers disappear was a sport for me   , but disciplining regular members for conduct was rare, but then those forums did not have a Political section, and any politicized talk was strictly forbidden.

Result:  a nice, peaceful and respectful community.


----------



## merlin (Sep 23, 2017)

I have no interest in politics, though I accept that it does to a degree permeate all of life, I don't know enough about American politics to add anything to a discussion, and I couldn't begin to describe the shambolic system that we have in my own country (UK). In saying that I believe the political forum could well be a place for some members to vent their differences, I am aware as CeeCee mentioned that their are cliques and possibly malicious gossip going on behind the scenes. Would these simmering resentments come out in discussions other than politics if that outlet was closed. I guess if that was true the political forum could be looked on as a therapy/anger management area largely unmoderated?


----------



## helenbacque (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm new to this forum; in fact, new to forums in general.  I've viewed and occasionally commented on other sites but never really spent much time in any other than this one.  Although I did read conditions, rules & regs., etc. before joining here, I admit to not having explored it fully and and now realize I know little about things such as Speakers Corner.  

Recent changes in my life have severely limited my opportunities for social contact (moved to new location and gave up driving) and being privy to the personal thoughts/opinions of others in my age group concerning things such as politics drives me to explore issues more fully and also helps to keep my own thoughts grounded.  When lively conversations in the real world turned ugly, I tuned out or walked away.  It's easy to do the same here. 

I personally think everyone should keep up with what's going on in the world in general (and their own country in particular) to some extent even if it's only a mild interest but that's just me.  Politics IS a major factor in all our lives even if we wish to ignore them.  I'm grateful to live in a country where it's OK to do that.

I'd like to see any and all subjects open for discussion and comment but understand if restrictions must be put in place.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Since this thread is an airing of feelings... No Matrix.... you are not viewed as being fair at all...  at least not by the more liberal posters... Which is why, when all is said and done... I think you should ban the political forum and let the chips fall where they may.  I did vote to keep it... but.. events of the last few days have made me change my mind.



^^this.

Thanks for the poll, makes it look like we have a say, but at the end of the day, it's strictly the admin's decision...whose desires on this matter are well known.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

So far I only see that the poll supports banning it.  That may still change.  Until yesterday I always assumed Matrix was a democrat or liberal so what you both say isn't fair in my opinion.

There is a whole forum of conservatives who thought Matrix and Seabreeze were liberals.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

I see it's now 33-29 in favor of banning it. How much longer does the poll go? I want to swoop in at the end and get on the side that's going to win.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> I see it's now 33-29 in favor of banning it. How much longer does the poll go? I want to swoop in at the end and get on the side that's going to win.




8:30 PM but I don't know if that's PT or what.


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> I see it's now 33-29 in favor of banning it. How much longer does the poll go? I want to swoop in at the end and get on the side that's going to win.


Not sure if the popular vote will win..


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> So far I only see that the poll supports banning it.  That may still change.  Until yesterday I always assumed Matrix was a democrat or liberal so what you both say isn't fair in my opinion.
> 
> There is a whole forum of conservatives who thought Matrix and Seabreeze were liberals.



Your opinion is valid, as is mine.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> 8:30 PM but I don't know if that's PT or what.




Oh, I see. It's right under the title of the Poll!

Duh!


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 23, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Your opinion is valid, as is mine.




True.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

If nothing else this sure has generated a lot of interest.

Replies 120
Views 1,940.

Wait. There is a discrepancy here.  62 votes.  Better get Mueller on the case.  We need a grand jury and an investigation.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> If nothing else this sure has generated a lot of interest.
> 
> Replies 120
> Views 1,940.
> ...



I don't see any discrepancy. 33 + 29  = 62.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 23, 2017)

I am reminded of George Carlin and his "7 dirty words you can't say on television".  If you could programmatically monitor a thread with a list of words that would cause a post to be deleted, it would solve a lot of problems.  But of course that would in itself be problematic.  To quote George, "you can prick your finger but you can't ........"


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> I don't see any discrepancy. 33 + 29  = 62.



But there are 120 Replies.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Hoot N Annie said:


> I am reminded of George Carlin and his "7 dirty words you can't say on television".  If you could programmatically monitor a thread with a list of words that would cause a post to be deleted, it would solve a lot of problems.  But of course that would in itself be problematic.  To quote George, "you can prick your finger but you can't ........"



I haven't seen those kind of words used in the forum here.

The worse I have been called is a Ruskie to which I inquired if they noticed my accent.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I haven't seen those kind of words used in the forum here.
> 
> The worse I have been called is a Ruskie to which I inquired if they noticed my accent.



lol - the words I had in mind were not "dirty" per se.  Things like "Obummer" instead of Obama, "Killary" instead of Hillary, "tRump" instead of Trump, etc.  Petty name calling. "Nazi" or "racist" and similar insults would also be banned.  But it would be impossible to catch them all.  So once again, I'll dope slap myself.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> But there are 120 Replies.



That's because some folks, like you and me, vote once but make multiple replies.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Hoot N Annie said:


> That's because some folks, like you and me, vote once but make multiple replies.



But only God can make a tree?


----------



## hangover (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix said:


> If they only post in politics, a dedicated political forum would be a better place for them.
> 
> 
> You can come up with all perfect rules, it all comes down how to enforce them. Unless you are ready to ban many members, the rules are just some meaningless text.
> ...


Matrix....I think you might do good to check out this political forum....I think most members hear are quite sensible compared to the political forum....there are a few here that would love this right leaning sight, because it allows nastiness as long as it's not personal.....But really, when insults are made against the left or the right, it is personal to most on the insulted side.

I think that Reagan started disrespecting the liberals when he became POTUS. And the cons tried making "liberal" a dirty word. And the democrats tried to take the high road, which labeled them as wimps. Trump and his minions have taken disrespect to a whole new level, and now liberals are giving what they've been getting. And we are now seeing that cons and Trump are pretty thin skinned, because they are being proven to be on the wrong side of so many issues....so they have "alternative facts" and "fake news" as retorts. But there is no denying that they are being exposed, that's why they are in the minority.

There is no denying that the cons tried for eight years to disrespect and dismantle everything that the first black president tried to accomplish. And it branded the GOP as the obstructionists. Trump and the cons are still trying to dismantle healthcare, just because Obama accomplished it, even though it was originally a Romney idea. But it's also because it takes money from the rich and corporations, which is the love of republicans. Republicans have been trying to destroy Social Security and welfare and equal rights and unions since they were created by the democrats.

The facts are, that liberals are for the people, and cons are for the rich. And the cons know they are on the wrong side of that issue, so they have to deceive the voters into believing that the GOP is helping the workers with "trickle down economics" which hasn't worked for over 35 years. It has just shifted the wealth to the corporations and the rich.

Please check out this sight and see which side is really being nasty, dishonest, and disrespectful to others. Yes, I'm sure you will see some liberals giving what they get, but on the whole they are pretty honest and sensible in their exposing of right wing dishonesty.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php

The thing about having a forum, is to let everyone be who they are. Regulating thought isn't a good idea.


----------



## helenbacque (Sep 23, 2017)

hangover said:


> Matrix....I think you might do good to check out this political forum....I think most members hear are quite sensible compared to the political forum....there are a few here that would love this right leaning sight, because it allows nastiness as long as it's not personal.....But really, when insults are made against the left or the right, it is personal to most on the insulted side.
> 
> I think that Reagan started disrespecting the liberals when he became POTUS. And the cons tried making "liberal" a dirty word. And the democrats tried to take the high road, which labeled them as wimps. Trump and his minions have taken disrespect to a whole new level, and now liberals are giving what they've been getting. And we are now seeing that cons and Trump are pretty thin skinned, because they are being proven to be on the wrong side of so many issues....so they have "alternative facts" and "fake news" as retorts. But there is no denying that they are being exposed, that's why they are in the minority.
> 
> ...



Well said.


----------



## hangover (Sep 23, 2017)

I misunderstood this thread. I thought it was a question about the nation, not the forum. But I know that both the left and the right are too enslaved to their parties to be able to give them up. It's like trying to turn a Baptist into a Catholic, or a Muslim from a Shiite into a Sunni.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 23, 2017)

“_The thing about having a forum, is to let everyone be who they are. Regulating thought isn't a good idea.”

__Actually, moderating a forum is totally different from regulating thought, which inspires thoughts of martial law and government control of free speech.  
A forum is a privately owned place, belonging to the administrator, just like our homes belong to us.  We each have the right to make the decisions about what is or isn’t allowed in our own homes, and the same is true of a forum. 
If someone is in my house and screaming about something, it is perfectly in my rights to make them leave my home. I am not stopping them from screaming about whatever it is, I am simply saying that this is not permissible in my house. 

Having an abusive post moderated or deleted altogether is a quite reasonable thing to do , and is sometimes necessary for the benefit of the forum as a whole. 
Having one’s post deleted is a whole lot better than being summarily banned from the forum, and gives a person a chance to rectify their behavior. 
__



_


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 23, 2017)

hangover said:


> Matrix....I think you might do good to check out this political forum....I think most members hear are quite sensible compared to the political forum....there are a few here that would love this right leaning sight, because it allows nastiness as long as it's not personal.....But really, when insults are made against the left or the right, it is personal to most on the insulted side.
> 
> I think that Reagan started disrespecting the liberals when he became POTUS. And the cons tried making "liberal" a dirty word. And the democrats tried to take the high road, which labeled them as wimps. Trump and his minions have taken disrespect to a whole new level, and now liberals are giving what they've been getting. And we are now seeing that cons and Trump are pretty thin skinned, because they are being proven to be on the wrong side of so many issues....so they have "alternative facts" and "fake news" as retorts. But there is no denying that they are being exposed, that's why they are in the minority.
> 
> ...



Correct!!.....everything you said applies.


----------



## hangover (Sep 23, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> “_The thing about having a forum, is to let everyone be who they are. Regulating thought isn't a good idea.”
> 
> __Actually, moderating a forum is totally different from regulating thought, which inspires thoughts of martial law and government control of free speech.
> A forum is a privately owned place, belonging to the administrator, just like our homes belong to us.  We each have the right to make the decisions about what is or isn’t allowed in our own homes, and the same is true of a forum.
> ...


Moderating is one thing, but banning a whole issue because of one or two Holier than thou's is like trying to make something go away that must be dealt with in this society. Bigotry, pollution, greed, hate, religious beliefs and ideologies have to be resolved if America is to survive. It should have been dealt with after the Civil War, instead of allowing them to go free. The perpetrators of prejudice, slavery and hate must be exposed and made examples of. In Germany, the Nazi ideology is illegal. And many of the leaders were hanged. Being tolerated here emboldens those who are the bullies that cause so much suffering. As a result we get incidents like Charlottesville Virginia that continue to kill the innocent. We must raise the level of consciousness, even if the ignorant are kicking and screaming.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 23, 2017)

hangover said:


> Moderating is one thing, but banning a whole issue because of one or two Holier than thou's is like trying to make something go away that must be dealt with in this society. Bigotry, pollution, greed, hate, religious beliefs and ideologies have to be resolved if America is to survive. It should have been dealt with after the Civil War, instead of allowing them to go free. The perpetrators of prejudice, slavery and hate must be exposed and made examples of. In Germany, the Nazi ideology is illegal. And many of the leaders were hanged. Being tolerated here emboldens those who are the bullies that cause so much suffering. As a result we get incidents like Charlottesville Virginia that continue to kill the innocent. We must raise the level of consciousness, even if the ignorant are kicking and screaming.



We are not talking about changing the world here, Hangover. This thread is about having a poll on whether we think that Matrix should continue to include politics in his forum, or whether it would be a friendlier forum if politics were not one of the subjects in the forum.  

This thread is  in the general discussion area of the forum, and political rants are actually not even supposed to be in the forum anywhere except in the political part of the forum. 
If you want to discuss political injustice in America (or the world in general) then you should start a thread in the political area of the forum instead of posting your opinions here in the poll thread.


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Sep 23, 2017)

hangover said:


> Moderating is one thing, but banning a whole issue because of one or two Holier than thou's is like trying to make something go away that must be dealt with in this society. Bigotry, pollution, greed, hate, religious beliefs and ideologies have to be resolved if America is to survive. It should have been dealt with after the Civil War, instead of allowing them to go free. The perpetrators of prejudice, slavery and hate must be exposed and made examples of. In Germany, the Nazi ideology is illegal. And many of the leaders were hanged. Being tolerated here emboldens those who are the bullies that cause so much suffering. As a result we get incidents like Charlottesville Virginia that continue to kill the innocent. We must raise the level of consciousness, even if the ignorant are kicking and screaming.



In essence, you are saying you want a forum where you can tell "them" they are wrong (never mind that you are insinuating that it's a matter of life and death), and the moderator is saying that is part of the problem.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

And the "keepers" have now narrowed the gap to 1. 

34-33 banners. 

Man, this is exciting!


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> “_The thing about having a forum, is to let everyone be who they are. Regulating thought isn't a good idea.”
> 
> __Actually, moderating a forum is totally different from regulating thought, which inspires thoughts of martial law and government control of free speech.
> A forum is a privately owned place, belonging to the administrator, just like our homes belong to us.  We each have the right to make the decisions about what is or isn’t allowed in our own homes, and the same is true of a forum.
> ...



But that takes moderating and that's what they are trying to avoid.  Making decisions without offending anyone.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> And the "keepers" have now narrowed the gap to 1.
> 
> 34-33 banners.
> 
> Man, this is exciting!


I got to get my popcorn out.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> I got to get my popcorn out.




The fans are going wild!


----------



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 23, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> I got to get my popcorn out.



There ya go!  Ending a sentence in a preposition.  It's "get out my popcorn"... not "get my popcorn out"!!!  @#$%^  

See.  We can even start an argument in a thread about a forum where we argue too much.  Love it!!!!


----------



## Falcon (Sep 23, 2017)

One should  NEVER  use a preposition to end a sentence  with.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

I can deal with the pressure of potentially being the deciding vote. 

I'm going to go ahead and tie it up at 34 each by voting with the keepers. 

Someone else will have to be the tie breaker.


----------



## terry123 (Sep 23, 2017)

Falcon said:


> One should  NEVER  use a preposition to end a sentence  with.


Good one Falcon!


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Falcon said:


> One should  NEVER  use a preposition to end a sentence  with.



But it's o.k. to end it 'with' when it's not needed?  :sentimental:


----------



## Jackie22 (Sep 23, 2017)

Now you all are getting downright nasty and ugly...


----------



## Wayne (Sep 23, 2017)

I never could understand why if someone did not like it they click on it?  I have see a large UK based forum that the mods are so biased with the liberal mindset literally that delete other views at their will, it is the pits.


----------



## IKE (Sep 23, 2017)

It makes no difference what the poll results end up being it will be because of a......  and.......


----------



## RadishRose (Sep 23, 2017)

Oh, don't tell me we'll need the hanging chad guy again!



http://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/collection/where-are-they-now-the-hanging-chad-guy/


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 23, 2017)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> There ya go!  Ending a sentence in a preposition.  It's "get out my popcorn"... not "get my popcorn out"!!!  @#$%^
> 
> See.  We can even start an argument in a thread about a forum where we argue too much.  Love it!!!!


Oh well...:sentimental:...LOL


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 23, 2017)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> There ya go!  Ending a sentence in a preposition.  It's "get out my popcorn"... not "get my popcorn out"!!!  @#$%^
> 
> See.  *We can even start an argument in a thread about a forum where we argue too much.*  Love it!!!!



Definitely a legitimate concern.

If Politics is banned then what will be the new area of concern General Discussions, Current News and Hot Topics, etc...

I wish I had more important things to think about but the sad truth is I don't!


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 23, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> Definitely a legitimate concern.
> 
> If Politics is banned then what will be the new area of concern General Discussions, Current News and Hot Topics, etc...
> 
> I wish I had more important things to think about but the sad truth is I don't!



Games.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> Definitely a legitimate concern.
> 
> If Politics is banned then what will be the new area of concern General Discussions, Current News and Hot Topics, etc...
> 
> I wish I had more important things to think about but the sad truth is I don't!



I'm sure us old coots will come up with SOMETHING to argue about... it's what we do..   BUT.. not sure I will be around much anyway.


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> I'm sure us old coots will come up with SOMETHING to argue about... it's what we do..   BUT.. not sure I will be around much anyway.


You just stay off my lawn!!! *lol*


----------



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 23, 2017)

falcon said:


> one should  never  use a preposition to end a sentence  with.



:d:d:d


----------



## chic (Sep 23, 2017)

It's rather pointless to ban anything, anywhere here because people will find a way to inject it into places where it does not belong. At least if it's in it's own forum, those who wish to can avoid it.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 23, 2017)

No matter what is decided think I'll just avoid politics anyways.  I'm just tired of the whole thing.


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 23, 2017)

For whatever it's worth ...

Politics, like religion, sex and humor, are in the eye of the beholder. Since the "beholders" here are so varied in their beliefs and value systems, there is no logical way to make everyone play nice. Matrix, I'm sure you have other, more productive things you could be doing other than babysitting people when they let their passions fly.

And it isn't just a matter of "_Oh, you can just ignore the Politics sub-forum if you don't like it_". The problem is that bad feelings, once engendered in that area, spill over into the general forum. That's usually the beginning of the end for a forum, and it would be a shame to see that happen here. 

I was censured by other members for attempting to bring a little levity to the board. Imagine if I had had a passion for _politics_? I would have been positively _banned! 
_
As for finding a non-partial moderator for the politics section - yeah, good luck with that. 

My vote - between the waste of Matrix's time and the bad feelings that spill over into the board - get rid of it.


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 23, 2017)

I believe Matrix will make a decision based on what he feels best for his forum.  I see the problem and can not offer any solution other than banning the political sub forum.  As a member I have an opinion that we are all "good guys" but in expressing our ideas or solutions to political matters we ca provoke others to unfriendly responses.  I see only one reason for retaining the political sub forum and that is that some of us like to engage in the discussions. That being the situation here is my advise to Matrix, who is offering us this forum for our use at his expense:  I would ban politics from the forum since there are many outlets for political discussion all over the internet that our members can go to to vent their feelings and when the want to talk about their other interests they can post here with people who like them and are not tainted by their political opinions.  We have secret ballots to protect our right to exercise our political expression at the poll, our opinions are not needed here. Finally, who changes any minds with their opinion on the internet anyhow?


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> I believe Matrix will make a decision based on what he feels best for his forum.  I see the problem and can not offer any solution other than banning the political sub forum.  As a member I have an opinion that we are all "good guys" but in expressing our ideas or solutions to political matters we ca provoke others to unfriendly responses.  I see only one reason for retaining the political sub forum and that is that some of us like to engage in the discussions. That being the situation here is my advise to Matrix, who is offering us this forum for our use at his expense:  I would ban politics from the forum since there are many outlets for political discussion all over the internet that our members can go to to vent their feelings and when the want to talk about their other interests they can post here with people who like them and are not tainted by their political opinions.  We have secret ballots to protect our right to exercise our political expression at the poll, our opinions are not needed here. Finally, who changes any minds with their opinion on the internet anyhow?



Yet Jim.... it appears that there is a pretty even divide between the keeps and the get rid ofs.. .. why does one half get to dictate what the other half is allowed to enjoy?  Why are the feelings of one group more important than the feelings of the other group?   This "tie" needs to be broken by matrix and matrix alone... I'm sure he is weighing all the pros and possible cons..


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Yet Jim.... it appears that about one half like the political forum and participating there... why does one half get to dictate what the other half is allowed to enjoy?  Why are the feelings of one group more important than the feelings of the other group?


Ultimately Lolly I made my feelings known in my post and really can't express my feeling any better.  Forums are not a democracy, they are paid for, owned and managed by folks who have to deal with their management.  I see the problems of having discussions that hurt feeling and breakup otherwise friendly members relationships.  Who makes the best pizza is not divisive,


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> ... why does one half get to dictate what the other half is allowed to enjoy?  Why are the feelings of one group more important than the feelings of the other group? ...



Isn't that also how the electoral process goes? 

I think Matrix's decision will be like the Electoral College - it doesn't matter what the actual number of votes by "we the people" turns out to be; he'll have the ultimate yay/nay powers.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> Ultimately Lolly I made my feelings known in my post and really can't express my feeling any better.  Forums are not a democracy, they are paid for, owned and managed by folks who have to deal with their management.  I see the problems of having discussions that hurt feeling and breakup otherwise friendly members relationships.  Who makes the best pizza is not divisive,



Which is why it is Matrix's call... it's his forum and his decision...

Do you not think there will not be hard feelings on the part of the people who enjoyed the political section against those so vocal about taking it away?


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Which is why it is Matrix's call... it's his forum and his decision...
> 
> Do you not think there will not be hard feelings on the part of the people who enjoyed the political section against those so vocal about taking it away?


I hope they understand his feelings in doing so.  There are very few who come here for politics alone in my view.  You won't stop being my friend I hope should he decide to do away with politics?


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 23, 2017)

chic said:


> It's rather pointless to ban anything, anywhere here because people will find a way to inject it into places where it does not belong. At least if it's in it's own forum, those who wish to can avoid it.



Agreed. Matrix and SeaBreeze will still have a problem moderating political arguments and they will have to scrutinise more sections to do it.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 23, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Agreed. Matrix and SeaBreeze will still have a problem moderating political arguments and they will have to scrutinise more sections to do it.



Good point, hadn't thought of that.    I've seen "politicized" posts in inappropriate sections of the forum, and reported it.  The admins probably think I'm just being a jerk, but I was trying to help.


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 23, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> I hope they understand his feelings in doing so.  There are very few who come here for politics alone in my view.  You won't stop being my friend I hope should he decide to do away with politics?



*"Do you not think there will not be hard feelings on the part of the  people who enjoyed the political section against those so vocal about  taking it away?"
*


 Sure but then there are hard feelings about those who voted for Trump or Clinton too.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Well the keep it are now ahead by 37 to 35.

I sure hope they keep it until the Investigations are over.

I just want to be able to say.  See I told you so.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well the keep it are now ahead by 37 to 35.
> 
> I sure hope they keep it until the Investigations are over.
> 
> I just want to be able to say.  See I told you so.



And this is why the forum is seen as nasty...


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

Now when I read the political forum, every thread seems to divide and hurt the community. "Politics" and "community" are exclusive to each other.

If politics was banned here, those who enjoy posting in politics can find many other forums to continue the debate, but if a member was banned or left SF because of politics, s/he doesn't have many choices, I don't know any active forums catering to American seniors.

Thanks everyone for your input, I see more clearly with this poll thread.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

I just want to be able to say.  See I told you so.  




> And this is why the forum is seen as nasty...



Why? Because people can't take a joke?


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I just want to be able to say.  See I told you so.
> 
> Why? Because people can't take a joke?



Never mind.... It's simply not worth responding


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Lolly said:


> Never mind.... It's simply not worth responding



Your comments were offensive to me.


----------



## Lolly (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Your comments were offensive to me.


..


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Matrix.  It's a tie vote now.  Can I change my vote and break the tie?


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Isn't that also how the electoral process goes?
> 
> I think Matrix's decision will be like the Electoral College - it doesn't matter what the actual number of votes by "we the people" turns out to be; he'll have the ultimate yay/nay powers.



There is a Constitution somewhere for this forum?


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Matrix.  It's a tie vote now.  Can I change my vote and break the tie?



Too late. The clock ran out. It's a tie. 

:tongue:


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> If you change yours then I'll change mine to cancel out yours.
> 
> :tongue:



You might be surprised on how I voted.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You might be surprised on how I voted.



It doesn't matter now.


----------



## Trade (Sep 23, 2017)

When does the sudden death overtime start?


----------



## Katybug (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> When does the sudden death overtime start?



You're funny, Trade.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Trade said:


> It doesn't matter now.



I'll see you in the Weather and What did you eat today threads.


----------



## Linda W. (Sep 23, 2017)

As far as I'm concerned, it can be shut down.
           7


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 23, 2017)

Linda W. said:


> As far as I'm concerned, it can be shut down.
> 7


The poll ended at 8.30.


----------



## Matrix (Sep 23, 2017)

The political forum has been officially closed, it's now hidden and read-only, you can still read it if you know the link.


----------



## Wren (Sep 23, 2017)

...


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 23, 2017)

Well, I'm sure everyone's blood pressure and mental health will improve now.     fftobed:


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 24, 2017)

Matrix said:


> The political forum has been officially closed, it's now hidden and read-only, you can still read it if you know the link.


Cool!


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 24, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> I believe Matrix will make a decision based on what he feels best for his forum.  I see the problem and can not offer any solution other than banning the political sub forum.  As a member I have an opinion that we are all "good guys" but in expressing our ideas or solutions to political matters we ca provoke others to unfriendly responses.  I see only one reason for retaining the political sub forum and that is that some of us like to engage in the discussions. That being the situation here is my advise to Matrix, who is offering us this forum for our use at his expense:  I would ban politics from the forum since there are many outlets for political discussion all over the internet that our members can go to to vent their feelings and when the want to talk about their other interests they can post here with people who like them and are not tainted by their political opinions.  We have secret ballots to protect our right to exercise our political expression at the poll, our opinions are not needed here. Finally, who changes any minds with their opinion on the internet anyhow?





AZ Jim said:


> I hope they understand his feelings in doing so.  There are very few who come here for politics alone in my view.  You won't stop being my friend I hope should he decide to do away with politics?


Ditto to all the above.. 


Thanks for the close..


----------



## Lara (Sep 24, 2017)

I will not only stay but I will be enjoying so much more about the other forums as I peruse the other threads that I never had time for before. Like this morning, I learned so much about bananas in meanderer's thread  It started my day with laughter and a light heart. 

Thank you Matrix for being as fair as you could possibly have been and for taking everyone's opinions into consideration. I know it's been a hard decision to make and my heart goes out to those feeling the loss. I hope those with opposing political views will accept me as their friend. Peace :rose:


----------



## Pappy (Sep 24, 2017)

:cool2::thankyou1::clap:


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 24, 2017)

Pappy said:


> :cool2::thankyou1::clap:


----------



## Bobw235 (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm sure it was a tough decision and we certainly had a good debate on the issue. I'm sure political discussion will creep into other sub-forums from time to time, but I suspect the decision to close the political forum will ultimately be beneficial. Thanks to Matrix for taking all of our opinions into consideration.


----------



## SpicyTweed (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm okay with this change!


----------



## mimento mori (Sep 24, 2017)

Happyflowerlady said:


> “_The thing about having a forum, is to let everyone be who they are. Regulating thought isn't a good idea.”
> 
> __Actually, moderating a forum is totally different from regulating thought, which inspires thoughts of martial law and government control of free speech.
> A forum is a privately owned place, belonging to the administrator, just like our homes belong to us.  We each have the right to make the decisions about what is or isn’t allowed in our own homes, and the same is true of a forum.
> ...


Very well thought out.  Impressive indeed! 
One, just one aspect of free speech is somehow always forgotten by those who wish to use their "right" by abusing others with objective rhetoric.  ACCOUNTABILITY !!  
Whatever we say or do and wherever it is said and done is a personal act and we have to take ownership of it.  People who write nasty things on FB about their bosses or workplace deserve to be fired.  People who act the ass in a restaurant deserve to be tossed out and barred.  Those who call policemen dirty names while being stopped absolutely should be detained.  
And lastly, those who use a public format to simply denigrate another human being because they love to do it should have their stuff deleted and or be banned from that format.  Such formats as a political or faith based board seems to draw out the worse possible ingredients in some people and have to governed with the strictest priorities in mind so as to provide a mentally safe place for people to offer their opinions and hopefully....facts! 

It isn't an "ism" to hold people accountable for what they do or say because everything we do and say has a consequence whether that consequence is good or bad.  If we cannot take responsibility for ourselves and everything we do then someone else has to provide that action for us.


----------



## MaggieM (Sep 24, 2017)

Thank you for doing this  



Matrix said:


> The political forum has been officially closed, it's now hidden and read-only, you can still read it if you know the link.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 24, 2017)

Bobw235 said:


> I'm sure it was a tough decision and we certainly had a good debate on the issue. I'm sure political discussion will creep into other sub-forums from time to time, but I suspect the decision to close the political forum will ultimately be beneficial. Thanks to Matrix for taking all of our opinions into consideration.



It's almost impossible to get away from creeping into our daily lives. Sometimes it will be hard to even make a comment.


----------



## terry123 (Sep 24, 2017)

I don't think it was a good idea to close it. Still wonder why people thought they HAD to read it.  I scroll on by when I see a topic I don't like or a person I don't care for. Seems like people don't know how to skip stuff they find offensive.    Think I will scroll on out of here for awhile .


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 24, 2017)

I think that this has been a very hard decision for an Admin to have to make, and the choices were not without problems, no matter what decision Matrix chose to do. 
This does not mean that politics can’t be discussed, because we already have a group (Speaker’s Corner) which is exactly for the purpose of discussing politics, current events, and most anything else of a debatable nature. 
This forum has had to have the political section shut down before, and then re-opened again later; so there is no reason why things might not change in the future, once things settle down. 
This decision was (in my opinion) a better one than keeping the topic open, and then banning people from the forum altogether. 
Everyone can post in the other threads that they enjoy, and discuss politics elsewhere, or in Speakers Corner, or even open up a new and different group to discuss political news and events. 
I support Matrix (and SeaBreeze) for dealing with this issue , and also for giving everyone the chance to voice our opinion as to what we thought should happen, and why.


----------



## Trade (Sep 24, 2017)

I voted to keep it but I can roll with this. It's probably a blessing.


----------



## Aurora (Sep 24, 2017)

NO. I don't read it but let others.
Too many topics are borderline political and this banning could spread.
No censoring politcs


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 24, 2017)

Probably a wise decision Matrix.  Time will tell.


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Sep 24, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> It's almost impossible to get away from creeping into our daily lives. Sometimes it will be hard to even make a comment.



Hope to see you in the Virtual Morning Coffee forum...at 4pm. You can describe the sunrise I missed. layful:


----------



## Ken N Tx (Sep 24, 2017)

I have see a few members posting that I have not seen in awhile..


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 24, 2017)

terry123 said:


> I don't think it was a good idea to close it. Still wonder why people thought they HAD to read it.  I scroll on by when I see a topic I don't like or a person I don't care for. Seems like people don't know how to skip stuff they find offensive.    Think I will scroll on out of here for awhile .


Maybe if you read the entire thread (the one we are on) you will understand things better, or not, I don't know but just a suggestion.


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 24, 2017)

terry123 said:


> I don't think it was a good idea to close it. Still wonder why people thought they HAD to read it.  I scroll on by when I see a topic I don't like or a person I don't care for. Seems like people don't know how to skip stuff they find offensive.    Think I will scroll on out of here for awhile .


Stick around Terry.  Lot's going on here besides the now defunct politics.


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 24, 2017)

To quote from _The Dark Knight_: 

*“Some men aren't looking for anything logical,  like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with.  Some men just want to watch the world burn.”     
*


----------



## grahamg (Sep 24, 2017)

The thought occurred to me, having watched a tv programme about combatting Alzheimer's disease, and I think it was possible those who took part in the political debates were maybe inadvertently assisting ourselves by warding off the disease (?). 

On the other hand, there were some doubts expressed as to whether some of us had already succumbed  (a few unnamed individuals jump to mind  ).


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 24, 2017)

:sosad: I am feeling rather disappointed with the decision but I respect Matrix and his reasons. :thankyou:

Unfortunately I am now hesitant to raise any serious issue because I doubt that I can do this without straying into politics. For example, the row going on about "bending the knee" is getting coverage over here but cannot see how it can be discussed without mentioning the President.

I will continue to monitor traffic is the groups section but I will be very quiet elsewhere. Please understand that I am not ill, nor angry, just at a loss to know how I can safely contribute to the forum.

I think I will be spending more time in the garden from now on.


----------



## grahamg (Sep 25, 2017)

*Hope your gardne does well.......*



Warrigal said:


> :sosad: I am feeling rather disappointed with the decision but I respect Matrix and his reasons. :thankyou:
> 
> Unfortunately I am now hesitant to raise any serious issue because I doubt that I can do this without straying into politics. For example, the row going on about "bending the knee" is getting coverage over here but cannot see how it can be discussed without mentioning the President.
> 
> ...




Hope your garden does better with extra attention, and obviously the physical excercise will be as good a therapy as our former brain excercises trying to figure out where each other was coming from in the politics section .

As I think one or two forum members have said, maybe we will benefit from watching and listening to what others now do in response to the political situation developing in the USA, rather than thinking we can contribute anything by pouring forth our ideas on it   .

Is it possible to grow pineapples where you live, and if I could economically send you some "organic fertiliser" I would be glad to shift it  .


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 25, 2017)

Thanks for your interest, Graham.

Too far south for pineapples where I live.

 We are holding our church Market Day in early November and I have decided to nurture some seedlings to sell. We have a new community garden attached to our child care centre and we plan to sell some of produce which we will grow ourselves or buy at the markets. I will be helping to organise inspection tours of the CCC and overseeing the teens who will be selling the plants.

Today I thinned out some mignonette lettuce, capsicums, tomatoes, basil and chocolate mint. I only have three weeks until my next shoulder operation so I need to get a move on if I am to have enough little plants to sell.

After this next operation, when I have the use of my right arm back again I think I should spend a lot more time outdoors instead of posting on this or any other forum.


----------



## Bobw235 (Sep 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> :sosad: I am feeling rather disappointed with the decision but I respect Matrix and his reasons. :thankyou:
> 
> Unfortunately I am now hesitant to raise any serious issue because I doubt that I can do this without straying into politics. For example, the row going on about "bending the knee" is getting coverage over here but cannot see how it can be discussed without mentioning the President.
> 
> ...



Warri, I suspect there will still be a fair amount of discussion that includes a political bent. Let's face it, much of what we're dealing with in the world today involves politics in one form or another. Today I arose to news about (in no particular order) 1) the president's speech in Alabama and resulting reaction, 2) the "take a knee" reaction in response to the president's words, 3) the healthcare bill that at the moment seems doomed in the Senate (and which likely impacts some members here) 4) the hurricane victims in Puerto Rico and the seeming lack of help for all those citizens.

All of those issues have an element of politics and they are important news items. I think the fact that a dedicated political sub forum exists may just be a subtle reminder that discussion needs to be rationale, civil, polite, etc. I welcome a place where one can debate the important issues of the day without that discussion devolving into name calling and labeling of the other side.


----------



## Sunny (Sep 25, 2017)

I am personally disappointed. As long as there's no name-calling or outright nastiness, what's the harm in a lively discussion?  As Warri and Bob just pointed out, it's nearly impossible to keep politics out of all discussions. Living where I do, in the shadow of our nation's capital, that seems to be the _only _topic right now.

I'm also interested in hearing the opinions of those who do not live in America, and maybe learning something about their political situation as well.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the "no politics" restriction? Does it really mean we cannot venture into any political opinions in our discussions?  Or does it just mean that one subject has been shut down? I've never really understood the difference between the "Politics" subject and the "Hot Topics" subject, anyway.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Sep 25, 2017)

There were also several other topics that were “lumped in” with politics, simply because they were controversial, not because they all pertain to politics. There is now no area to discuss God, or religion anymore, not that there was ever a lot of discussion anyway, since most of that area of the forum was taken over by politics. 
I feel that this was maybe a necessary solution at this point; but that it can be re-vamped and the political section re-opened in the future. 
I think that both sides, liberal and conservative, thought that they were being targeted by moderation and banning; which probably means that both sides required it about equally, and just didn’t think that the opposing viewpoints were under moderation as well. 
Probably, most of the people on both sides of the issue intended to have a peaceful discussion, but whenever  that  first “flaming” arrow hit someone, then both sides attacked, and from that point on, neither side actually heard whatever point the opposing side was trying to make. 
I think that it might be time that we started seeing each other as friends, and realize that , liberal or conservative, we both love our country, and only want to see Americans with a government that actually cares about the people.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 25, 2017)

I think we are just going through a bit of a normal _grieving process_ while we learn to fill the void created by the closing of the Political Forum, it will pass.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

We already had a hiatus prior to the final closing where the forum was not available for posting.

No one learned the lesson apparently after it was reopened.


----------



## Sunny (Sep 25, 2017)

Could someone please tell me where and what Speakers' Corner is?  (I know about the one in London, even visited it once. But is it also a part of this Forum?)


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Could someone please tell me where and what Speakers' Corner is?  (I know about the one in London, even visited it once. But is it also a part of this Forum?)



On the home page at the top.  Click on Community.  The links are there to the Groups.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I think we are just going through a bit of a normal _grieving process_ while we learn to fill the void created by the closing of the Political Forum, it will pass.


Thats how I see it also and hopefully some lurkers who didn't like the nastiness and negativity will now decide to join.  Yes, some will leave but that's the way it goes on forums.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 25, 2017)

It is a group in the spirit of Speakers Corner in Hyde Park.

 I started it to cater for people who wanted to discuss serious topics. Every viewpoint is welcome but belittling the viewpoints of others is not. Also, derailing a topic with frivolity is not allowed.

 Here is a link to the topics on offer https://www.seniorforums.com/group.php?groupid=2

 Anyone can read but to contribute you must first request to join.

 I also started a group called _Of Matters Spiritual _to discuss topics that can loosely be classified as Religion and Ethics. It is not meant to be a place where we argue about religion or try to convert anyone to our faith or lack of it.

https://www.seniorforums.com/group.php?groupid=2

 To see all of the groups available see here: https://www.seniorforums.com/group.php?cat=1

 The JOIN button is found in the last link.


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I think we are just going through a bit of a normal _grieving process_ while we learn to fill the void created by the closing of the Political Forum, it will pass.



Heh, heh ... Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression,  and Acceptance.

*Denial:* NO, NO, the Politics forum CAN'T be gone! That's just a rumor, a false-flag operation!

*Anger:* ARRRGGHHH! They took my Politics away! GRRRRR!!!

*Bargaining:* "Matrix, if we all play nice, will you keep the Politics forum?"

*Depression:* No Politics forum ... *sigh* ... I'm going to go have a stiff drink, then go to bed. No point living anymore ...

*Acceptance:* Well, Matrix made his decision. Guess I'll just have to live with it.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 25, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Heh, heh ... Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression,  and Acceptance.
> 
> *Denial:* NO, NO, the Politics forum CAN'T be gone! That's just a rumor, a false-flag operation!
> 
> ...



During my working years we called the process *Form, Storm, Norm, Perform.*


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> :sosad: I am feeling rather disappointed with the decision but I respect Matrix and his reasons. :thankyou:
> 
> Unfortunately I am now hesitant to raise any serious issue because I doubt that I can do this without straying into politics. For example, the row going on about "bending the knee" is getting coverage over here but cannot see how it can be discussed without mentioning the President.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, Warri -- so much of the current news and things that affect our everyday lives DO involve politics in one way or another.  For instance, the health care hassle, the North Korea problem, disaster aid to affected regions, etc. -- how can those be discussed without somehow involving politics -- yet they are very important issues and can affect all of us.

Perhaps there are other places on the internet where these matters can be discussed . . . .


----------



## helenbacque (Sep 25, 2017)

It's a pity that civilized conversation between intelligent adults could not stay civilized. Listening to, discussing and investigating the merits of the thoughts and ideas of others is an important part of a person's on-going education.


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> During my working years we called the process *Form, Storm, Norm, Perform.*



Ah, yes, Tuckman's Stages of Group Development. 

Back when I worked in industry the groups would all seem to stall out somewhere around the Storming stage.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 25, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Heh, heh ... Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression,  and Acceptance.
> 
> *Denial:* NO, NO, the Politics forum CAN'T be gone! That's just a rumor, a false-flag operation!
> 
> ...




Judging by how healthy discussion is blossoming all over the forums, it looks like dumping Political was a very beneficial move.

Thank you, Matrix...may we all post in peace.


----------



## Falcon (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't care one way or another.  I never go there anyway.


----------



## SifuPhil (Sep 25, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Judging by how healthy discussion is blossoming all over the forums, it looks like dumping Political was a very beneficial move.
> 
> Thank you, Matrix...may we all post in peace.



Agreed.


----------



## IKE (Sep 25, 2017)

Thanks to Matrix, we at Senior Forums now have........


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 25, 2017)

Just some random zen thoughts. . :bounce:


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

You guys crack me up with your tranquility.  

The banner colors got mixed up.

Give it a week. :banghead:


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You guys crack me up with your tranquility.
> 
> The banner colors got mixed up.
> 
> Give it a week. :banghead:


----------



## Knight (Sep 25, 2017)

I wonder how many remove votes the political option were by people that never posted there. 

I saw nothing wrong with letting off steam or beating a point to death by people that would probably not meet fact to face in their lifetime.  No matter what was posted the impact on our world would not change would it? 

I always looked at it as getting a chance to see what others think about when they are exposed to the same news I am as a learning experience.  I wonder how long it will take for others to get bored with wanting to know what the growing season for squash is and drift away from the web site.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

Knight said:


> I wonder how many remove votes the political option were by people that never posted there.
> 
> I saw nothing wrong with letting off steam or beating a point to death by people that would probably not meet fact to face in their lifetime.  No matter what was posted the impact on our world would not change would it?
> 
> I always looked at it as getting a chance to see what others think about when they are exposed to the same news I am as a learning experience.  I wonder how long it will take for others to get bored with wanting to know what the growing season for squash is and drift away from the web site.



I did find out why Trump became president.


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Sep 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I did find out why Trump became president.



hahaha!


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 25, 2017)

Knight said:


> I wonder how many remove votes the political option were by people that never posted there.
> 
> I saw nothing wrong with letting off steam or beating a point to death by people that would probably not meet fact to face in their lifetime.  No matter what was posted the impact on our world would not change would it?
> 
> I always looked at it as getting a chance to see what others think about when they are exposed to the same news I am as a learning experience.  I wonder how long it will take for others to get bored with wanting to know what the growing season for squash is and drift away from the web site.




Its not the end of the world, Knight!   That happened on September 23rd.


----------



## Lon (Sep 25, 2017)

Keep,it


----------



## Shalimar (Sep 25, 2017)

IKE said:


> Thanks to Matrix, we at Senior Forums now have........View attachment 42551[/QUOTE
> 
> Namaste.


----------



## CeeCee (Sep 25, 2017)

Lon said:


> Keep,it



Too late Lon, it's gone...for now.


----------



## tnthomas (Sep 25, 2017)

...Lon would have been the tie-breaker!    


...way-to-go, Lon.


:sorrow:


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 25, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> ...Lon would have been the tie-breaker!
> 
> 
> ...way-to-go, Lon.
> ...



Seriously?  it was 50/50 when they decided?


----------



## Knight (Sep 25, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> Its not the end of the world, Knight!   That happened on September 23rd.


Really!! Then is what I'm posting now could be what is considered ghost writing? Just when Camper was about to reveal why Trump won the political thread is no more ):


----------



## Wandrin (Sep 25, 2017)

With politicians talking about how they would like to cut (or get rid of) Medicare and Social Security, it is very difficult for seniors not to find politics relevant.


----------



## nvtribefan (Sep 25, 2017)

I predict this thread will be going bye-bye.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

Its' nice to see some humor now and then.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

Knight said:


> Really!! Then is what I'm posting now could be what is considered ghost writing? Just when Camper was about to reveal why Trump won the political thread is no more ):



Send me a private e mail.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> IKE said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks to Matrix, we at Senior Forums now have........View attachment 42551[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 25, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> Seriously?  it was 50/50 when they decided?



Yes.  37 for the red states and 37 for the blue states.


----------



## AZ Jim (Sep 25, 2017)

Matrix merely asked our opinion, it was never to make the decision to keep or eliminate the political forum.  Keep in mind he owns this site.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 26, 2017)

Still the vote might have had an influence if there was a huge majority one way or another.

I was surprised at the results. I thought it would be overwhelming against.


----------



## ossian (Sep 27, 2017)

Me too. I was surprised to see it closed. Happy at the decision though. Hopefully that works out and everyone settles to the new arrangement.


----------



## jumpdawg (Oct 9, 2017)

Good deal. There are plenty of boards and forums for political discussion on the internet. I stopped coming here because of the political BS, however now it again feels good to be here again. We're all too old for all that political bickering.

jd


----------



## Wayne (Oct 9, 2017)

I am very active n a Military Vet and Police site, we have a review board made of members changing often so all get a say if they wish to at times, we moderate ourselves really rather strictly as to violations but rarely have them, very rare, not much censorship it lots of good info usually not in the news or until later, you have to submit proof of service to even join, user name is initial and last name or reverse, verified prior to membership. I wish more were like that. Politics are no problem at all. We have a wall of shame for violators with name and offense. It works well.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

I thought I would miss the politics forum here but I don't. 

I do do notice some posters didn't return.


----------



## Wayne (Oct 10, 2017)

This was one of the better political forums out there. Not overly censored and all sides had a say.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 10, 2017)

That's rare. It's either overly censored or a free for all.

I think it depends on the members.  When you restrict the membership like proof of service requirement, then you get people that understand the topics better.


----------



## Wayne (Oct 10, 2017)

C6 we do have a good collection from all over on our M&P forum the requirement really helped so did the member review board, most all do have a vast knowledge of the issues they face in their areas, one of the real good things is needing info on an area getting it from someone there with real knowledge not internet reading from sites leaning one way or another.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 10, 2017)

Wayne. Let's say you just lucked out.

Here it wasn't working at all. The dialogue was terrible and even vicious at times.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 25, 2021)

Matrix said:


> Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?
> 
> Please take the poll, only two choices: yes or no.


I don't know why any site would ban politics. It exists and is an important part of life. I didn't catch the poll in time or I guess it's pretty obvious that I would have voted no do not ban. too much censoring going on, as it is. I mean it is a choice as to what a member chooses to participate in. Thanks for asking the question of your members, rather than just Banning it. Kudos!


----------



## Ruthanne (Jan 25, 2021)

JudyB said:


> I don't know why any site would ban politics. It exists and is an important part of life. I didn't catch the poll in time or I guess it's pretty obvious that I would have voted no do not ban. too much censoring going on, as it is. I mean it is a choice as to what a member chooses to participate in. Thanks for asking the question of your members, rather than just Banning it. Kudos!


Well, it has been banned since after this poll--politics always caused ruffled feathers and hurt feelings and it was real bad so now we don't have that problem anymore, thank God.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 25, 2021)

Ruthanne said:


> Well, it has been banned since after this poll--politics always caused ruffled feathers and hurt feelings and it was real bad so now we don't have that problem anymore, thank God.


Yes I was just checking around and gather that's what had happened. It's too bad that there's so much Banning / censorship going on. My opinion is that if it's the thread or part of the Forum that I don't like I just don't go there. I don't understand why other people have a problem ignoring parts of a forum they don't care for. It's what we do in our daily lives, after all. Have a happy Monday!


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

IMO, No, and think we should. ... Politics is the one thing that effects us all, and in some cases the results can actually effect us personally . I believe they should be discussed. And ... if a member does not like discussing them, then they should not open the thread.


----------



## Buckeye (Jan 25, 2021)

rgp said:


> IMO, No, and think we should. ... Politics is the one thing that effects us all, and in some cases the results can actually effect us personally . I believe they should be discussed. And ... if a member does not like discussing them, then they should not open the thread.


That horse is dead.  Quit beating it.


----------



## Ruth n Jersey (Jan 25, 2021)

I think it should be banned. If it isn't ,somehow, someway it will spill over into other posts by people who will not accept another's opinion on the political site.


----------



## Ruthanne (Jan 25, 2021)

JudyB said:


> Yes I was just checking around and gather that's what had happened. It's too bad that there's so much Banning / censorship going on. My opinion is that if it's the thread or part of the Forum that I don't like I just don't go there. I don't understand why other people have a problem ignoring parts of a forum they don't care for. It's what we do in our daily lives, after all. Have a happy Monday!


It wasn't about ignoring a part of the forum--it was *the way* that those who like to discuss Politics discussed them.  I hope your Monday is a good one too!


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> That horse is dead.  Quit beating it.



 No.


----------



## Oris Borloff (Jan 25, 2021)

_I'm asking nicely here, PLEASE, OH PLEASE can we keep politics out?  There are loads of places to discuss that subject, can't we have a refuge?_

No one is going to change anyone's mind on pretty much any particular subject regarding politics and in my experience that's how the discussion ends up--being pissing contest.


----------



## RadishRose (Jan 25, 2021)

If someone wants to discuss politics, go to a politics Forum.


----------



## Gary O' (Jan 25, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> If someone wants to discuss politics, go to a politics Forum.


Bingo


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> _I'm asking nicely here, PLEASE, OH PLEASE can we keep politics out?  There are loads of places to discuss that subject, can't we have a refuge?_
> 
> No one is going to change anyone's mind on pretty much any particular subject regarding politics and in my experience that's how the discussion ends up--being pissing contest.



 You have a refuge ...... Don't open the thread.


----------



## Devi (Jan 25, 2021)

The thing is, if politics are allowed, they could come up in _*any* _thread, not just threads marked "politics" or something similar.


----------



## Buckeye (Jan 25, 2021)

rgp said:


> You have a refuge ...... Don't open the thread.


And this is why politics had to be banned.  Some folks just want to keep beating that dead horse, and are unable to understand basic rules of common courtesy.  Have a nice day.


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Devi said:


> The thing is, if politics are allowed, they could come up in _*any* _thread, not just threads marked "politics" or something similar.



 Then limit them too *that *thread only .


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> And this is why politics had to be banned.  Some folks just want to keep beating that dead horse, and are unable to understand basic rules of common courtesy.  Have a nice day.




 So what if [say I] and another member are going at it hammer & tong over a political point. If it annoys you, if you think we are being ridiculous ? If you didn't open that thread, you would never know.

You are not concerning yourself with what you participate in, you are concerning yourself with what others participate in. Control yourself, as opposed to controlling what others do.


----------



## Gary O' (Jan 25, 2021)

rgp said:


> Control yourself, as opposed to controlling what others do.


Now *THAT's* funny!

Only from the mind of rgp


----------



## jujube (Jan 25, 2021)

There are many, many forums that allow politics and the discussions usually turn nasty after a while.  I enjoy the peace and quiet here.  My vote is for "no politics".


----------



## Knight (Jan 25, 2021)

An even split in 2017 yet still active as an interest. 

Yes, ban it.    Votes: 37    50.0%    
No, keep it.    Votes: 37    50.0%    
Total voters 74 Poll closed Sep 24, 2017.

Worth the read Grumpy Ol' Man Senior Member Post #14

The ending paragraph had this in it.

Their political forums are "hidden". A member must request permission to have access to the political discussion and can, likewise, opt out at any time. 

Quite a few responses in the original poll had the logical idea that if you don't like a thread & don't participate what difference would it make?

Maybe a new poll ?


----------



## Buckeye (Jan 25, 2021)

rgp said:


> So what if [say I] and another member are going at it hammer & tong over a political point. If it annoys you, if you think we are being ridiculous ? If you didn't open that thread, you would never know.
> 
> You are not concerning yourself with what you participate in, you are concerning yourself with what others participate in. Control yourself, as opposed to controlling what others do.


lol - fact is that politics were banned quite a while ago, and if you don't like it you are free to leave.   Have a nice day.


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Now *THAT's* funny!
> 
> Only from the mind of rgp




 Not sure I understand your reply Gary ? Are you in favor of those that try to control others ? Or are you just laughing at the prospect of self control ?


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> lol - fact is that politics were banned quite a while ago, and if you don't like it you are free to leave.   Have a nice day.




 So true, but there you go again, trying to control what i do, so right back at'cha ... if a political thread is opened ? I suggest you do not open it, since the prospect of it seems to upset you. You after all are free to participate in other threads.


----------



## rgp (Jan 25, 2021)

If there was a thread put up discussing what hats the ladies were going to wear to the Kentucky Derby this year ......... I have absolutely no interest in such a subject , so why would I even open such a thread ? ..... Conversely why would I even attempt to limit them from discussing it ?

Discuss it at will, discuss it as you will. Matters not, too me.


----------



## Don M. (Jan 25, 2021)

Politics Are part of our lives, and something we have to contend with all the time.  I see nothing wrong with a civil discussion of issues, but when it descends into childish insults and criticisms, it's time to change the subject.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 25, 2021)

As I recall, when political discussions were permitted, personal animosity over differing political views often leaked into other threads. This often led to unpleasant cliquish behaviour which affected many members, politically engaged, 

or otherwise. In my opinion, over time, the atmosphere in sf suffered greatly. Tension rather than conviviality became the norm.


----------



## Devi (Jan 25, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> As I recall, when political discussions were permitted, personal animosity over differing political views often leaked into other threads. This often led to unpleasant cliquish behaviour which affected many members, politically engaged, or otherwise. *In my opinion, over time, the atmosphere in sf suffered greatly. Tension rather than conviviality became the norm.*



(The bolding above was mine.)

@Shalimar, agreed -- and that was precisely my point. As it is, sometimes one can guess at a poster's political views, but we're not all arguing pros and cons or making assumptions over labels. No politics allows more friendliness between members.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 25, 2021)

I'd like to see politics allowed, as long as it is really politics, and not a slugfest of insults. I'm on several other forums where politics is permitted, and haven't seen any major wars break out. People just voice their opinions.

It does seem kind of odd to me that politics is not allowed, but religion is. There are certainly as many opposing viewpoints over religious ideas as there are over political ones.

One other thing occurred to me: even though overt discussions of politics are banned, it is very often obvious what political stance someone is taking. One example: for a while, any discussion about whether to wear masks was highly political. It wasn't really about masks; the masks were symbolic, at least to a lot of people. It's nearly impossible to omit politics from any but the fluffiest discussions, even if you want to.


----------



## Irwin (Jan 25, 2021)

These days, we can't even agree on what is a fact and what is fabricated. Some people live in an alternate reality based on crazy conspiracy theories and that's what they base their opinions on. I have a neighbor like that. I just walk away from him when he comes near me.

I'm for keeping political discussions banned.


----------



## Nathan (Jan 25, 2021)

Matrix said:


> Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?


While there is a sizable portion of the populace that insists that their fantasy-conspiracy political belief is the truth, there will never be an opportunity to have a "civil" political discussion.

There are forums out on the 'net where people get their jollies tearing each others hair and eyeballs out, so anybody that likes that kind of behavior can go there and have at it.


----------



## asp3 (Jan 25, 2021)

The "non-political" responses here to some threads have been political enough for me to want to keep the ban.  I don't think I'd enjoy the forum as much if the ban were lifted.  I think the ban provides an interesting way of tempering replies so that someone has to think about how to express their opinion without it being political.


----------



## Gary O' (Jan 25, 2021)

rgp said:


> Not sure I understand your reply Gary ? Are you in favor of those that try to control others ?


Of course not



rgp said:


> Or are you just laughing at the prospect of self control ?


I just find yer posts rather comical


----------



## Sassycakes (Jan 25, 2021)

I,was verbally attacked on another forum because my view on politics was different than theirs. I have no problem with anyones point of view on the subject . Like others, have mentioned I could chose whether or not to post anything, so it would be fine with me if there was a political thread.


----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 25, 2021)

The issue that I see these days is that even in a thread that is initially not about politics, it will end up there because it is all so inter-twined.  I commented this past weekend on a bit of the history involving the current fad of censoring people on social networking platforms and somebody came in upset about only conservatives being banned.  My post was not at all about that, but instead about how we got to where censorship on these platforms became a thing.

So the problem I see is that if politics is banned, we will probably be very limited as to what can be discussed if politics is to not get involved.  The moderators would have their hands full trying to stop such discussion where it flares up in ANY thread.

On the other hand,  there seems to be such deep division and hatred these days for an opposing view from one "side" or the other, that civil discussion seems all but impossible.

It seems to be human nature to join "dese guys" and then "dose guys" become the bad guys to be attacked, ridiculed, etc.  It happens between supporters of various sports teams, between religious belief systems, between schools and other institutions, between political parties, and most anything else that a person can join.  I remember it even happening between CB'ers and ham radio folks back in the 1970s.  To me, it is incredibly childish, but those heavily invested in one view or another can't seem to step back far enough to see the big picture, instead continuing to blindly fight for their side.  Until we collectively grow up beyond this sort of thing and see beyond our own beliefs, I have little hope for civil discussion when it comes to these kinds of division.

Tony


----------



## Nathan (Jan 25, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> It seems to be human nature to join "dese guys" and then "dose guys" become the bad guys to be attacked, ridiculed, etc.  It happens between supporters of various sports teams, between religious belief systems, between schools and other institutions, between political parties, and most anything else that a person can join.  I remember it even happening between CB'ers and ham radio folks back in the 1970s.  To me, it is incredibly childish, but those heavily invested in one view or another can't seem to step back far enough to see the big picture, instead continuing to blindly fight for their side.  Until we collectively grow up beyond this sort of thing and see beyond our own beliefs, I have little hope for civil discussion when it comes to these kinds of division.
> 
> Tony


...basically you're describing the tribal mentality that some people were raised in- "us" vs "them".   That is always a fertile ground for conflict, without a doubt.   

I had a supervisor at work back in the day, if someone had a different view than his,  he would insist that "you're either _for_ us or _against_ us".   Oh brother....


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 25, 2021)

Funny thing, in my little corner of the universe, most people don’t seem to care very much about political or religious differences. Frankly, more often than not, we don’t even know where many of the people we know stand on these 

issues. Considered rude to ask. If it does come up, unless someone is a proud boy, or espouses hatred towards any group in our multicultural society, we tend to be tolerant.


----------



## fmdog44 (Jan 25, 2021)

Talking politics on forums is anti-conclusive. You throw your dart then I throw mine and it never ends. It is counterproductive compared to face to face or group interactions. They serve to do little more that arouse anger.


----------



## asp3 (Jan 25, 2021)

I do believe it's possible to have civilized political discussions, but I haven't found that many people who are capable of doing so.  It is cool to have a great political discussion with someone who is able to be respectful of another's informed opinions and who can state specific reasons that their informed opinion is different.  I sometimes learn new things in discussions like that.

I'm still all for the politics ban here unless there is a specific discussion thread for those topics that I can choose to have not show up at all when I look for new posts.


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 25, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> As I recall, when political discussions were permitted, personal animosity over differing political views often leaked into other threads. This often led to unpleasant cliquish behaviour which affected many members, politically engaged,
> 
> or otherwise. In my opinion, over time, the atmosphere in sf suffered greatly. Tension rather than conviviality became the norm.


One of the problems with a site like this, is that regular posters do reveal their political and personal views. We soon get a mental profile of everyone, and this can affect our responses to all their posts.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2021)

Many of you weren't members of this forum when this poll was taken, and this was about 3 or 4 years after I joined.. (i've been here 7 years)

The political forums or threads here were almost impossible to avoid, because it seemed as tho' politics were brought into many unrelated threads and  if you dared to go against the thoughts of the clique majority view, you could be hounded all around the forum..every thread.... a mere good morning wish on the daily morning thread would get some troublemaker attempting to call you out , taunting and attempting argument  because of your opinion being even  slightly different to theirs on a political point... it got to be a horrible toxic situation, which went on for years  and ultimately we weren't keeping new members because they'd soon see what was happening or become embroiled themselves, ... so something had to go.. and that was the banning of some members who refused to comply with the rules  , and ultimately the poll asking for the majority view with regard to keeping politics as part of this forum

This has been a very much nicer , and calmer forum since we lost the political threads... I wouldn't want it to return


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 25, 2021)

Interesting though, that the poll result was 50/50. However, it's good to have a site which is free of politics. I don't know if it's just me but when I'm checking out the various on-line chat sites, I can almost 'sense' an atmosphere as soon as I land on a site.
However, the worse site for me was the 'Granny' one. Unless you had the same views as the site's developers, your posts were deleted.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> *Interesting though, that the poll result was 50/50.* However, it's good to have a site which is free of politics. I don't know if it's just me but when I'm checking out the various on-line chat sites, I can almost 'sense' an atmosphere as soon as I land on a site.
> However, the worse site for me was the 'Granny' one. Unless you had the same views as the site's developers, your posts were deleted.


yep but many of the pro politcs voters were those who were the main protagonists 

I found the 'saga' forum (may it R.I.P) was by far the worst with regard having posts removed when not agreeing with the mods or admin political views...


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jan 25, 2021)




----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 25, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> yep but many of the pro politcs voters were those who were the main protagonists
> 
> I found the 'saga' forum (may it R.I.P) was by far the worst with regard having posts removed when not agreeing with the mods or admin political views...


There is a forum that I left for similar reasons.  These things do happen, but eventually we find a forum we can call home.  Hopefully, this one is it.  

I think that I have expressed my views here in a hopefully non-political manner.  I don't align with any particular political party, but in general I support law and order, personal responsibility for one's actions, and accepting responsibility for the choices one makes for his or her life.  From the various ideas I have read from most folks regardless of political affiliation, it seems many hold these values to one degree or another.

Tony


----------



## Nathan (Jan 25, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I do believe it's possible to have civilized political discussions, but I haven't found that many people who are capable of doing so.  It is cool to have a great political discussion with someone who is able to be respectful of another's informed opinions and who can state specific reasons that their informed opinion is different.  I sometimes learn new things in discussions like that.


I enjoyed watching William F. Buckley Jr. on Firing Line back in the 90s, he was intellectual and was civil with his guests that had opposing views.  I don't know of any broadcast show like that anymore...

The other day my son and I were talking about how / why the internet to became such a toxic sewer of extreme opinion and bad behavior.   *Two factors*:  Promoting fantastic & extreme conspiracy ideas attracts attention and followers, and that equals power and control.
*Secondly*, the ability to anonymously harm someone(insult, disrespect) seems to be a common *dark side* trait of the Human mind.


----------



## J.B Books (Jan 25, 2021)

I was a member of an automotive forum for years.
A few years ago, 2016, it became very offensive and political in the open topics section.
In about three years the membership dwindled and the forum is  a shell of it's former self.
All it took was one guy. The site owners should have have removed him, but didn't and killed the forum.


----------



## horseless carriage (Jan 25, 2021)

For the benefit of those outside our shores, the argument that's become to be known as Brexit, has divided families. There's no centre ground, neither side can understand the opposite argument. It's given rise to accusations of xenophobic racism. Forums, sorry British forums, that tolerate political debate have been all but been torn apart by Brexit. Leave politics to those forums, I can tell you, if we allow politics, this forum will need to quadruple it's moderators, you only have to witness the last days of the previous US president to understand that.


----------



## Irwin (Jan 25, 2021)

I'm all for hearing opinions that differ from mine, provided they're based on facts. But in this day and age, we can't even agree on what the facts are, partially because some people don't seem to know the difference between fact and opinion, or they'll believe someone's opinion simply because it conforms to their world view and won't even check the facts. They'll say, "Nope, this is what I believe. I don't care about the facts."


----------



## Irwin (Jan 25, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> I was a member of an automotive forum for years.
> A few years ago, 2016, it became very offensive and political in the open topics section.
> In about three years the membership dwindled and the forum is  a shell of it's former self.
> All it took was one guy. The site owners should have have removed him, but didn't and killed the forum.



I'm a member of another forum for one of my hobbies. They started allowing political debates a few months ago and I found out things about some of the members there that I would have preferred not to know, but now the cat's out of the bag and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube (to mix metaphors), and I'd rather not have anything to do with people like that. Maybe if I stay away for a few months I'll start going back.


----------



## asp3 (Jan 25, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I'm a member of another forum for one of my hobbies. They started allowing political debates a few months ago and I found out things about some of the members there that I would have preferred not to know, but now the cat's out of the bag and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube (to mix metaphors), and I'd rather not have anything to do with people like that. Maybe if I stay away for a few months I'll start going back.



I love that, now the cat's out of the bag you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.   I think I'm going to start using that one.


----------



## J.B Books (Jan 25, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I love that, now the cat's out of the bag you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.   I think I'm going to start using that one.


My wife used to say...
"Knock it out of the park! put the puck in the end zone"


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 25, 2021)

Matrix said:


> Should SF ban politics to be a friendly forum, or depend on politics to be an active and fun board?
> 
> Please take the poll, only two choices: yes or no.


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 25, 2021)

No


----------



## asp3 (Jan 25, 2021)

Wow, I'd have a difficult time if this board was more active and more fun.


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 25, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> No


Sorry, my left hand isn't reading that correctly.  Yes, ban politics here.  I am so up to here with politics I would happily bow out if it were to a part of the general forum.  A separate area, ok.


----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 25, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> My wife used to say...
> "Knock it out of the park! put the puck in the end zone"


The horse has left the barn.

Tony


----------



## J.B Books (Jan 25, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Sorry, my left hand isn't reading that correctly.  Yes, ban politics here.  I am so up to here with politics I would happily bow out if it were to a part of the general forum.  A separate area, ok.


Problem with that is that people will get real mad with other people in a separate, politics only section.
Then in other areas it bleeds over and poisons all topics.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> Problem with that is that people will get real mad with other people in a separate, politics only section.
> Then in other areas it bleeds over and poisons all topics.


precisely my point in my previous post


----------



## JudyB (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> And this is why politics had to be banned.  Some folks just want to keep beating that dead horse, and are unable to understand basic rules of common courtesy.  Have a nice day.


lol why don't the people that don't like to talk politics, just not address it? People do realize that it takes comments, or responses to comments, to keep something going, right?  anytime that a topic is banned when the poll plainly showed that the result was equal in percentage, then in my opinion it shows bias on the side of the person that banned the topic. Next to impossible to find a non-biased moderator, they are only Human After All.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 25, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> And this is why politics had to be banned.  Some folks just want to keep beating that dead horse, and are unable to understand basic rules of common courtesy.  Have a nice day.





rgp said:


> IMO, No, and think we should. ... Politics is the one thing that effects us all, and in some cases the results can actually effect us personally . I believe they should be discussed. And ... if a member does not like discussing them, then they should not open the thread.


----------



## Ruthanne (Jan 25, 2021)

JudyB said:


> lol why don't the people that don't like to talk politics, just not address it? People do realize that it takes comments, or responses to comments, to keep something going, right?  anytime that a topic is banned when the poll plainly showed that the result was equal in percentage, then in my opinion it shows bias on the side of the person that banned the topic. Next to impossible to find a non-biased moderator, they are only Human After All.


Have you not read all the replies since you  were last here?  They clearly explain why we don't have Politics anymore.  The owner of this site has a right to not allow whatever he wants and most of us are behind him and agree with what he has decided years ago.  We are a much happier forum now.  I think you will understand better if you read all the replies.  Have a nice night Judy.


----------



## Dana (Jan 25, 2021)

Reason I joined this forum is because it stipulated "No politics."  Don't get me wrong, I love politics, but, when we can't see people's faces and interact, there arises a lot of misunderstandings and bad feeling.

Trouble is, if a specific area is selected for politics on a forum, it's not long before the views of the politically minded leach out into many of the other threads, thus spoiling the enjoyment. This is only my own personal opinion.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 25, 2021)

Wayne said:


> This was one of the better political forums out there. Not overly censored and all sides had a say.


That just makes me wonder why in the world it was banned?!  personally, I could never understand why adults couldn't disagree, on any subject really, without it turning into a battle. They must have never been married!


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 25, 2021)

Unfortunately, I have yet to see politics discussed reasonably on any social media platform and I've been on many.  I am not excluding myself from that list either after some of the comments I have read.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jan 25, 2021)

People are passionate about politics and their passion sometimes makes them crazy when someone posts an opposing view - they have a brain fade and lose control – and want to punish that person with a nasty comment that has to be removed. I am a passionate lover of world politics but have to agree that a no politics policy keeps a forum on an even keel.


----------



## Camper6 (Jan 25, 2021)

JudyB said:


> That just makes me wonder why in the world it was banned?!  personally, I could never understand why adults couldn't disagree, on any subject really, without it turning into a battle. They must have never been married!


If you get into a politics forum and go to the comments section and see how vicious posters are to each other you will soon agree that politics are not needed to make a good forum.


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 25, 2021)

This is so true, Camper.  People who know nothing at all about you personally, will suddenly decide you are their worst enemy and attack you for responding to a comment that is not to their liking.  It is unbelievable. I have been called some nasty names on social media.  A couple of years ago on this forum someone had started a thread that was political and after a few erroneous comments, I dared to correct them in a neutral tone, but someone here, a VIP or Senior Member jumped all over me and told me that politics were not permitted and I should go back to where Holly found me.  I was stunned, since I was merely a respondent on the original thread.  So, I left until one day about a year later I received an email from Matrix stating that I hadn't been around  and was I OK.  I gathered he didn't know what had happened, and let it ride and simply showed up and have been here ever since.  But, I avoid politics like the plague.  Believe me that subject like some religious ones are toxic.  I  even keep my opinions to myself when non professionals start stating medical facts which I know are patently incorrect.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2021)

JudyB said:


> That just makes me wonder why in the world it was banned?!  personally, I could never understand why adults couldn't disagree, on any subject really, without it turning into a battle. They must have never been married!


Unfortunately 'waynes' comment   wasn't true, and wayne wasn't a member here when the political bullying was at it's worst, he didn't join until after  most were banned or left ...


----------



## Chet (Jan 25, 2021)

Ban politics? *YES!*


----------



## Jules (Jan 25, 2021)

I belong to a couple of very small sites that permit politics. It’s mostly civilized.  Because it’s small, the sniping is minimal, though not always.  JMO, there would be no benefit to discussing various philosophies here or at the family dinner table.  If discussion of politics is what you want go to a political site as well as here. No one’s opinion will be changed, one way or the other.


----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 25, 2021)

Jules said:


> I belong to a couple of very small sites that permit politics. It’s mostly civilized.  Because it’s small, the sniping is minimal, though not always.  JMO, there would be no benefit to discussing various philosophies here or at the family dinner table.  If discussion of politics is what you want go to a political site as well as here. *No one’s opinion will be changed, one way or the other.*


This, I think is a key consideration.  When the dust settles and everybody has wiped their bloody noses, has anything or anyone changed?

As asp3 (I think it was him) said, it is possible that a civil discussion could result in folks learning from each other.

Tony


----------



## Irwin (Jan 25, 2021)

The only way to have a civil discussion is to first establish the facts. That's where things get nasty. Somebody will state a "fact" that has no grounding in reality and that's what they'll base their opinions on. Or they'll set up a strawman just to knock it down and act like they won the argument.

There's a debate forum, I forget the name and don't feel like looking for it, but they require participants to cite their sources. The site is something like ChangeMyMind or something like that. I suspect that debates with those rules rarely get out of hand because it prevents people from lying.


----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 25, 2021)

Irwin said:


> The only way to have a civil discussion is to first establish the facts. That's where things get nasty. Somebody will state a "fact" that has no grounding in reality and that's what they'll base their opinions on. Or they'll set up a strawman just to knock it down and act like they won the argument.
> 
> There's a debate forum, I forget the name and don't feel like looking for it, but they require participants to cite their sources. The site is something like ChangeMyMind or something like that. I suspect that debates with those rules rarely get out of hand because it prevents people from lying.


Why ruin a perfectly good argument with facts and logic?  Nobody else does?    

Tony


----------



## Ken N Tx (Jan 26, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> This has been a very much nicer , and calmer forum since we lost the political threads... I wouldn't want it to return


...........


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

Ruthanne said:


> Have you not read all the replies since you  were last here?  They clearly explain why we don't have Politics anymore.  The owner of this site has a right to not allow whatever he wants and most of us are behind him and agree with what he has decided years ago.  We are a much happier forum now.  I think you will understand better if you





Jules said:


> I belong to a couple of very small sites that permit politics. It’s mostly civilized.  Because it’s small, the sniping is minimal, though not always.  JMO, there would be no benefit to discussing various philosophies here or at the family dinner table.  If discussion of politics is what you want go to a political site as well as here. No one’s opinion will be changed, one way or the other.


Well speaking for myself I'm not out to try and change anybody's mind. But I do believe that I should be able to State my point of view even though it may be opposite somebody else's without it turning into a battle. Oh I belong to other sites, I would like to find one that allows political, or any other type of, conversation without all the censoring and banning though. It amazes me that adults feel the need to  have opposing topics or views moderated or controlled. I've handled 70-plus years of life, I know that I can handle anything that's thrown at me online anywhere I go. If nothing else comes from all the censoring there are more and more less controlling sites turning up since all the censoring has gone on by big Tech. It's unfortunate that it has to come to this but tiz the climate of the country right now. Wishing everybody a happy day!


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

JudyB said:


> lol why don't the people that don't like to talk politics, just not address it? People do realize that it takes comments, or responses to comments, to keep something going, right?  anytime that a topic is banned when the poll plainly showed that the result was equal in percentage, then in my opinion it shows bias on the side of the person that banned the topic. Next to impossible to find a non-biased moderator, they are only Human After All.


   With respect, I don’t really understand why a new member would choose to pursue such a potentially contentious subject. The ban was enforced over three years ago. It remains in effect. Snarky remarks about admin are inappropriate also. It appears to be an exercise in pot stirring. IMHO, in this time of plague, we need to be supportive of each other wherever possible.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

JudyB said:


> Well speaking for myself I'm not out to try and change anybody's mind. But I do believe that I should be able to State my point of view even though it may be opposite somebody else's without it turning into a battle. Oh I belong to other sites, I would like to find one that allows political, or any other type of, conversation without all the censoring and banning though. It amazes me that adults feel the need to  have opposing topics or views moderated or controlled. I've handled 70-plus years of life, I know that I can handle or simply ignore anything that's thrown at me online anywhere I go. If nothing else comes from all the censoring there are more and more less controlling sites turning up since all the censoring has gone on by big Tech. It's unfortunate that it has to come to this but tiz the climate of the country right now. Wishing everybody a happy day!


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, I don’t really understand why a new member would choose to pursue such a potentially contentious subject. The ban was enforced over three years ago. It remains in effect. Snarky remarks about admin are inappropriate also. It appears to be an exercise in pot stirring. IMHO, in this time of plague, we need to be supportive of each other wherever possible.


If you're addressing me, I'm not really new. Yes I agree being supportive of each other is a good thing, always, not just when we agree. snarky remarks were never intended towards anybody let alone admin. I made an initial comment, not realizing that it was an old topic ... and from there on I was responding to members responses. Just like I'm responding to yours. Have a nice day.


----------



## Buckeye (Jan 26, 2021)

That dead horse has been beaten enough.  Time to close this thread.


----------



## old medic (Jan 26, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> That dead horse has been beaten enough.  Time to close this thread.


Actually I think it should be a sticky along with Seabreezes post so new folks can see and understand why this forum 
avoids political based threads and responses.


----------



## horseless carriage (Jan 26, 2021)

old medic said:


> Actually I think it should be a sticky along with Seabreezes post so new folks can see and understand why this forum
> avoids political based threads and responses.


Agreed. Keeping it sticky would also demonstrate to would be newcomers that it's the membership that wants to avoid political debate rather than a high handed imposition.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> That dead horse has been beaten enough.  Time to close this thread.


----------



## rgp (Jan 26, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> That dead horse has been beaten enough.  Time to close this thread.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (Jan 26, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> This is so true, Camper.  People who know nothing at all about you personally, will suddenly decide you are their worst enemy and attack you for responding to a comment that is not to their liking.  It is unbelievable. I have been called some nasty names on social media.  A couple of years ago on this forum someone had started a thread that was political and after a few erroneous comments, I dared to correct them in a neutral tone, but someone here, a VIP or Senior Member jumped all over me and told me that politics were not permitted and I should go back to where Holly found me.  I was stunned, since I was merely a respondent on the original thread.  So, I left until one day about a year later I received an email from Matrix stating that I hadn't been around  and was I OK.  I gathered he didn't know what had happened, and let it ride and simply showed up and have been here ever since.  But, I avoid politics like the plague.  Believe me that subject like some religious ones are toxic.  I  even keep my opinions to myself when non professionals start stating medical facts which I know are patently incorrect.


 This is really true, and I have had that happen to me.  
I enjoy discussing politics, conspiracy theories, and paranormal topics, and I belong to a small senior’s forum where that is allowed and freedom of speech is pretty much not censored, except for personal attacks. 
It makes no sense to me to attack the poster just because they think differently about any topic than I do, and sometimes, this is how we learn new information, when it is shared with each other, and both sides can be discussed. 
But there are always people who seem to want to attack anyone who writes something that they don’t agree with, instead of disagreeing with the opinion . 
Name calling does nothing to prove one’s point, in my opinion. 

My daughter, who I love more than anyone in the world, has a totally opposite political opinion than I do, but that does not affect how I feel about her. 
 When we do discuss politics, we just explain why we think or believe the way that we do, without arguing with each other. 
I think that this is how it should be, with just about any topic, not just politics. 
I have seen some nasty posts from people on forums, just over what someone eats, for heaven’s sake !  Post that you are having fresh venison, and the vegans will totally forget that they want life to be peaceful.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 26, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> This is so true, Camper.  People who know nothing at all about you personally, will suddenly decide you are their worst enemy and attack you for responding to a comment that is not to their liking.  It is unbelievable. I have been called some nasty names on social media.  A couple of years ago on this forum someone had started a thread that was political and after a few erroneous comments, I dared to correct them in a neutral tone, but someone here, a VIP or Senior Member jumped all over me and told me that politics were not permitted and I should go back to where Holly found me.  I was stunned, since I was merely a respondent on the original thread.  So, I left until one day about a year later I received an email from Matrix stating that I hadn't been around  and was I OK.  I gathered he didn't know what had happened, and let it ride and simply showed up and have been here ever since.  But, I avoid politics like the plague.  Believe me that subject like some religious ones are toxic.  I  even keep my opinions to myself when non professionals start stating medical facts which I know are patently incorrect.


I remember you telling me this at the time Lois..it was disgraceful, but I still don't know to this day who the person is who had the temerity to PM you ... ( altho' I have my suspicions)


----------



## rkunsaw (Jan 26, 2021)

I like to discuss politics that's why I spend most of my computer time on that "other forum". Maybe some of you will come over there.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 26, 2021)

rkunsaw said:


> I like to discuss politics that's why I spend most of my computer time on that "other forum". Maybe some of you will come over there.


Nope.... lol


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 26, 2021)

No more of that for me either.  Over there, Politics usually segues into religion and other topics before getting back on track and the comments are absolutely ludicrous.  I'll pass.


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 26, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> I remember you telling me this at the time Lois..it was disgraceful, but I still don't know to this day who the person is who had the temerity to PM you ... ( altho' I have my suspicions)


Well, I really forgot who made that remark, Holly.  It wasn't who I at first thought it was but so be it.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 26, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Well, I really forgot who made that remark, Holly.  It wasn't who I at first thought it was but so be it.


shame you don't still have that email in your inbox ...


----------



## Sunny (Jan 26, 2021)

I've asked this question before, but have seen no real answer to it. I have to wonder why religion is OK as a subject. That is often just as contentious and emotional, and arguments about it can become just as vicious as politics. Yet, somehow we manage to steer our way past all the rocks and icebergs, and usually manage to end up on a peaceful shore.

So why is one OK and the other is not?


----------



## Lewkat (Jan 26, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> shame you don't still have that email in your inbox ...


It wasn't a private message, Holly, she made the comment openly on the thread in question.  I cannot recall the title of the thread at all.  I was brand new here and really knew no one but you.  So, who knows?  I recall the statement vividly though and how it stung.


----------



## Camper6 (Jan 26, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I've asked this question before, but have seen no real answer to it. I have to wonder why religion is OK as a subject. That is often just as contentious and emotional, and arguments about it can become just as vicious as politics. Yet, somehow we manage to steer our way past all the rocks and icebergs, and usually manage to end up on a peaceful shore.
> 
> So why is one OK and the other is not?


*Nothing.* And when I say *nothing* is as bad as politics when it comes to hate and insults.  
All you have to do is go to the comments section to see what posters say about each other.
I know it's freedom of speech but it's appalling speech. Nothing is held back. I cant give you examples because they are not permitted on this forum.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

rkunsaw said:


> I like to discuss politics that's why I spend most of my computer time on that "other forum". Maybe some of you will come over there.


----------



## JudyB (Jan 26, 2021)

rkunsaw said:


> I like to discuss politics that's why I spend most of my computer time on that "other forum". Maybe some of you will come over there.





rkunsaw said:


> I like to discuss politics that's why I spend most of my computer time on that "other forum". Maybe some of you will come over there.


I also like to discuss politics and I would go to the " other forum", if only I knew where or which one it was.


----------



## old medic (Jan 27, 2021)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I have seen some nasty posts from people on forums, just over what someone eats, for heaven’s sake ! Post that you are having fresh venison, and the vegans will totally forget that they want life to be peaceful.


Why you dragging me into this???? nothing better than fresh venison... LOL
My grandfather always said that you don't discuses religion or politics with friends and family.


----------



## tbeltrans (Jan 27, 2021)

old medic said:


> Why you dragging me into this???? nothing better than fresh venison... LOL
> My grandfather always said that you don't discuses religion or politics with friends and family.


I always heard it as you don't discuss religion, sex, or politics if you want to have any friends.  So, in my usual way, I combined all three in one sentence:

Clinton is a Baptist, isn't he?

Tony


----------



## Pappy (Jan 27, 2021)

On the rare occasion that my family all get together, the rule at the door is no politics or religion. My oldest sons views are complete opposite then the rest of the family....thus the rule.
My 2 cents worth....I’m glad there is no politics on this forum.


----------



## rgp (Jan 27, 2021)

Odd, that according to the poll results, it is 50/50 . So why are politics banned ? If 50% are in favor & 50% are against, why does the forum take the position to ban ?

Why not make them available until [or if] the against vote prevails ?


----------



## Matrix (Jan 27, 2021)

This is a very old thread and has caused lots of confusion. Thread closed.


----------

