# When to say NO to your Doctor



## Don M. (May 1, 2015)

I took the wife to the dentist today, and while waiting, I browsed the magazines in the office.  I came across an article in a Men's Journal Magazine that Everyone should read.  It is one of the best explanations of how our For Profit system works, and why health care is costing us so much, compared to other nations.  This is a rather lengthy 4 Part article, but it is Well Worth the time to read.  

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/when-to-say-no-to-your-doctor-20140919


----------



## NancyNGA (May 1, 2015)

Thanks for posting this, Don.  I was particularly interested in the discussion of the arthroscopic knee surgery.  I have a torn meniscus due to a car accident, but have learned how to not aggravate it.    Doctor says arthroscopic surgery would "fix" it, but no hurry to decide, and I've been debating this for over a year now.    I'm one who is skeptical of doctors to begin with, but he might be right on this one.  Every bit of information helps.


----------



## Josiah (May 1, 2015)

Thanks Don for the informative article. We learned as children that doctors are some sort of ultimate authority in matters of health. They may be authorities but they're far from the ultimate authority and you would do well consider their advice with a large dose of skepticism.


----------



## SeaBreeze (May 1, 2015)

Good article Don, thanks!


----------



## ndynt (May 1, 2015)

Excellent, especially the article about the Body Healing Itself, with Regenokine and PRP.  Thanks for sharing these articles with us, Don.


----------



## Don M. (May 1, 2015)

Far too much of our system is guided by Greed...rather than what is best for the patient.  Many doctors seem to be little more than "salesmen" for the drug companies.  Needless tests are often recommended because they are so profitable, and/or required to help protect the doctors from our Army of Ambulance Chasing Lawyers.  Surgeries are often recommended, when lifestyle changes or therapy would work just as well.  

With all the sources now available on the Internet, a person is well advised to do some research on their own before they accept as "gospel" what a doctor tells them.  At the bare minimum, a person should seek a 2nd opinion if there is any doubt about their doctors diagnosis.  

If we are ever going to reign in these ridiculous health care costs, we need to be more proactive in our own well-being.


----------



## Debby (May 2, 2015)

Don M. said:


> ............If we are ever going to reign in these ridiculous health care costs, we need to be more proactive in our own well-being.




One more reason to be glad for the Internet.  And too bad doctors are uninclined to listen to the patient who's been looking things up.  I guess they just don't like the idea of the doctor/patient TEAM.  Sure I know, it can cause problems when people fixate on what they 'think' is the problem but I think it could also be helpful to doctors who 'just hadn't thought of that' you know what I mean?

My family have various immune system issues and especially hypothyroidism.  So my youngest daughter, exhibiting numerous of the symptoms listed online and with the family history went to her doctor who did the tests and announced that they didn't show any issues, her numbers were in the safe range, so basically, you're fine, go home.  Except she didn't feel fine.  So she went to a second doctor, explained the story and family history, he re-did the tests , same results, BUT he decided to give her a test run of something that gave her just the tiniest additional input of something that has 'also been shown to affect the thyroid' and voila, she said that after a week or two, it was like the fog lifted and she just felt better.

My other daughter went to emerge with nausea, screaming migraines and muscle pain that never let up, they did an x-ray then gave her a pain pill prescription and said pretty much, sorry we don't know what's going on.  So she went to a chiropractor and after looking at the x rays he took, he said he didn't know why they couldn't see the twisted and curved spine that is fused to her atlas bone!  He did a series of manipulation on her neck (and that made all of us nervous for her!) and for the past month and a half, she hasn't had a migraine.  And she found that chiropractor who specializes in neck issues by looking on the internet!  

So Don, you're right, we do need to be proactive and not just hope that some guy with a degree might figure out our issues.


----------



## Don M. (May 2, 2015)

On the rare occasions that we have to go to the doctor, I do a "pre-check" of the symptoms at WebMD, or the Mayo Clinic web sites.  Then, after we get the doctors diagnosis, I recheck those sites to see if I am comfortable with what the doctor said.  If we are prescribed any drugs, I research those closely at Drugs.com...looking for any interactions or side effects.  At the bare minimum, this gives us some peace of mind about the issue.  

I also believe in visiting a chiropractor if I overdo it, and have a sudden onset of pain.  Quite often an "adjustment" by the chiropractor is far better than taking dopey pain pills for days or weeks, while the real problem continues to possibly get worse. 

I have an old neighbor who suffered a minor stroke about 18 months ago.  He was continuing to go downhill, and walking around in a stupor.  The doctors had him on 7 different drugs.  I looked those drugs up on Drugs.com, and found several interactions that closely matched his symptoms.  I printed all that off, and gave it to him, and he went to a different doctor.  Now, he is on 3 drugs, and doing much better.


----------



## Lon (May 2, 2015)

NancyNGA said:


> Thanks for posting this, Don.  I was particularly interested in the discussion of the arthroscopic knee surgery.  I have a torn meniscus due to a car accident, but have learned how to not aggravate it.    Doctor says arthroscopic surgery would "fix" it, but no hurry to decide, and I've been debating this for over a year now.    I'm one who is skeptical of doctors to begin with, but he might be right on this one.  Every bit of information helps.



Until a doc gets in there and trims the meniscus arthroscopically you will continue having some pain and discomfort.
I have had both the right and left knees done at separate times and it's no big deal. I had full use of my legs afterward. The meniscus will not heal it's self.


----------



## ndynt (May 2, 2015)

Don M. said:


> I have an old neighbor who suffered a minor stroke about 18 months ago.  He was continuing to go downhill, and walking around in a stupor.  The doctors had him on 7 different drugs.  I looked those drugs up on Drugs.com, and found several interactions that closely matched his symptoms.  I printed all that off, and gave it to him, and he went to a different doctor.  Now, he is on 3 drugs, and doing much better.


I had a patient once....her husband was taking care of her.  I kept seeing her decline.  To the point that she was incontinent, drooled, could not swallow even watery oatmeal, unable to ambulate.  Kept calling her MD about stopping some of her meds.  Unsuccessful.  He said she was dying. ??? I advised her husband to take her to the ER and have them evaluate her meds.  He did and most were stopped.  A few new ones added.  She seemed more alert.  I had to stop seeing her...she was no longer eligible for the program.   About 6 months later, at a grocery store, a vibrant and well groomed woman approached me.  She asked if I remembered her.  She had to tell me who she was and told me that even though she never responded she was aware of the care I gave her. That I saved her life.  She asked me if I would mind going to the parking lot with her.  She then showed me the new luxury convertible she was driving.  Said her husband was so grateful that he "had her back", that as soon as she was able to drive again he bought her the beautiful car...that matched her vibrant personality.   I shall never forget her....and the debilitating side effects medications can have.


----------



## ndynt (May 2, 2015)

Another long horror story....I was having severe chest pain.  Referred to the supposedly top cardiolist in my county.  He scheduled a stress test for several months later.  Pain continued.  Because I had a quadruple 98% blockage, the test did not reveal anything, for there was no contrast between the vessels.  BUT, I could not even continue the stress test for five minutes...due to the pain and sob.  Yet, he told me to come back in 6 months.  The pain became so severe that night I had to call 911.  Rushed to the hospital, had a heart attack while they were doing a cardia cath.  Put me on a heart pump, rushed me to another hospital. 26 miles away, with a better cardiac unit.   Did a quadruple bypass, was in ICU for a couple weeks on life support, in hospital two months.  After I went home they put me on new meds.  Kept getting weaker with increased SOB, could hardly walk. My primary MD sent me by rescue to the ER that had done the heart surgery.  Put a stent in and a graft.  Still getting worse, kept losing consciousness along with SOB and weakness.  Having atrial fib.  Primary MD sent me to another ER.  They ran all kinds of tests.  Then finally, one MD said he thought it was the heart med they had started me on after the surgery.  Stopped it and within a few days all the symptoms were gone.  How many MD's did it take, and expensive hosptial stays and tests/procedures, to decide it was only the side effects of a med. 
 Now for an old nursing joke....A line of professionals, lawyers and doctors were standing at the Pearly Gates...a man in a white coat bypassed them all and St Peter let him right in.  All the MD's were irate...asking St Peter why that MD was able to enter the Pearly Gates ahead of everyone else.  The MD's all citing their medical accomplishments, stating no one could be more qualified than they were.  St. Peter resonded telling them, "Oh, that was only God....sometimes he thinks he is a Doctor."    Too often we forget that MD's are not God..they are only human beings and not perfect.  At times we have to be our own advocates.


----------



## WhatInThe (May 6, 2015)

In other words avoid the vortex of American CYA make as much as you can medicine. It's hard enough avoiding incompetence and ignorance with in the industry but the greed or scardy cat culture is just as bad.


----------



## d0ug (May 7, 2015)

The medical system is a business and as a business needs to make a profit. If you are not sick stay away from a doctor or he will find his next car payment. Seniors are like ATM machines for doctors they will call you up and say you have not had this exam yet come on in.


----------



## WhatInThe (May 7, 2015)

d0ug said:


> The medical system is a business and as a business needs to make a profit. If you are not sick stay away from a doctor or he will find his next car payment. Seniors are like ATM machines for doctors they will call you up and say you have not had this exam yet come on in.



I've had that call and the I notice your insurance covers this but you haven't had it done yet call.


----------



## Don M. (May 7, 2015)

d0ug said:


> The medical system is a business and as a business needs to make a profit. If you are not sick stay away from a doctor or he will find his next car payment. Seniors are like ATM machines for doctors they will call you up and say you have not had this exam yet come on in.



I can remember when I was young.....and doctors made house calls, drove a Buick, and lived in the same general neighborhood as most of their patients.  Back then, they were part of the "Medical Profession".  Now, 7 out of the top 10 best paying career fields are in the Medical Professions, and they have become part of the "Health Care Industry".   The Primary objective of Any "Industry" is to Make Money.


----------



## Butterfly (May 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Far too much of our system is guided by Greed...rather than what is best for the patient.  Many doctors seem to be little more than "salesmen" for the drug companies.  Needless tests are often recommended because they are so profitable, and/or required to help protect the doctors from our Army of Ambulance Chasing Lawyers.  Surgeries are often recommended, when lifestyle changes or therapy would work just as well.
> 
> With all the sources now available on the Internet, a person is well advised to do some research on their own before they accept as "gospel" what a doctor tells them.  At the bare minimum, a person should seek a 2nd opinion if there is any doubt about their doctors diagnosis.
> 
> If we are ever going to reign in these ridiculous health care costs, we need to be more proactive in our own well-being.



I absolutely agree.

I also believe the part of the high cost of medical care nowdays is our very litigious society where  people will sue for anything and everything.  Therefore doctors feel they have to rule out every POSSIBLE though highly improbable problem and order all kinds of really unnecessary tests just to protect their own rear ends.


----------



## ndynt (May 11, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I absolutely agree.
> 
> I also believe the part of the high cost of medical care nowdays is our very litigious society where  people will sue for anything and everything.  Therefore doctors feel they have to rule out every POSSIBLE though highly improbable problem and order all kinds of really unnecessary tests just to protect their own rear ends.


That and the need for all MD's to have very expensive insurance drive,  health costs up. When MD's are covering themselves...it is so obvious  and frustrating.  Wonder what will happen with the new Medicare  rulings...rewarding MD's for preventing repeat hospitalizations.


----------



## NancyNGA (May 11, 2015)

ndynt said:


> ....  Wonder what will happen with the new Medicare  rulings...rewarding MD's for preventing repeat hospitalizations.



Do you, ndynt, or someone else have a good reference for these rulings?  Maybe it's just my lack of experience, but some recent dealings with hospitals, and private outsourcing groups associated with them, were not at all what I expected.  Maybe this would explain some things I'm still puzzled about.


----------



## Don M. (May 11, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I absolutely agree.
> 
> I also believe the part of the high cost of medical care nowdays is our very litigious society where  people will sue for anything and everything.  Therefore doctors feel they have to rule out every POSSIBLE though highly improbable problem and order all kinds of really unnecessary tests just to protect their own rear ends.



Absolutely!  The U.S. has far more lawyers, per capita, than any other industrialized nation.  They thrive on suing for any and all perceived "wrongs".  Our doctors are saddled with paying anywhere from $60,000 to $250,000 per year for Malpractice Insurance...depending upon their specialty and State...and those costs ARE passed along to the patients in the form of higher fees.  The drug companies know that they will be hit with massive class action lawsuits several years after the release of a new prescription drug...so they build billions of dollars into the price of their drugs to offset that eventuality.  Anytime anything resembling "Tort Reform" is mentioned in our Congress, such a bill doesn't even make it out of committee, because the majority of our politicians are lawyers...and they protect each others backs.  

http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/lawyers-per-capita.html


----------



## ndynt (May 11, 2015)

NancyNGA said:


> Do you, ndynt, or someone else have a good reference for these rulings?  Maybe it's just my lack of experience, but some recent dealings with hospitals, and private outsourcing groups associated with them, was not at all what I expected.  Maybe this would explain some things I'm still puzzled about.


I am trying to remember whether I read or heard, on NPR, about the new ruling.  Will go into my recycle bin later and sift through the last few days newspapers, Nancy.  Here is the Medicare site I use often...you can find your local Medicare help number on here also.  Surprisingly, when I have called they were cordially helpful.  https://www.medicare.gov/


----------



## Butterfly (May 12, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Absolutely!  The U.S. has far more lawyers, per capita, than any other industrialized nation.  They thrive on suing for any and all perceived "wrongs".  Our doctors are saddled with paying anywhere from $60,000 to $250,000 per year for Malpractice Insurance...depending upon their specialty and State...and those costs ARE passed along to the patients in the form of higher fees.  The drug companies know that they will be hit with massive class action lawsuits several years after the release of a new prescription drug...so they build billions of dollars into the price of their drugs to offset that eventuality.  Anytime anything resembling "Tort Reform" is mentioned in our Congress, such a bill doesn't even make it out of committee, because the majority of our politicians are lawyers...and they protect each others backs.
> 
> http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/lawyers-per-capita.html



Yup!  I believe that some kind of effective tort reform would bring down medical costs drastically.  Now, an angry patient can sue for huge amounts over any imagined wrong, and even when a jury finds for the doctor, the doctor (his insurance carrier) is out a tremendous amount of money for defending against a suit that has no merit at all.  OR, as is what usually happens, a doc's insurance carrier settles with the plaintiff, basically paying them "walk away money" because defense of a meritless lawsuit will cost more money than just paying off the plaintiff.  In either case, malpractice insurance rates go up, and that cost is passed on to the rest of us.  I worked for years and years in civil litigation, and this kind of stuff happens every day.  Many doctors (including my old primary physician) have quit practicing medicine because malpractice insurance has just gotten too expensive.  

IMHO, we need some kind of reform than penalizes people (and their attorneys) who bring absolutely ridiculous lawsuits.  This is true also in other areas of civil litigation as well.  People sue over anything, and for huge amounts of money, because they see a big payday.  Makes me sick.


----------



## Don M. (May 12, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Yup!  I believe that some kind of effective tort reform would bring down medical costs drastically.  Now, an angry patient can sue for huge amounts over any imagined wrong, and even when a jury finds for the doctor, the doctor (his insurance carrier) is out a tremendous amount of money for defending against a suit that has no merit at all.  OR, as is what usually happens, a doc's insurance carrier settles with the plaintiff, basically paying them "walk away money" because defense of a meritless lawsuit will cost more money than just paying off the plaintiff.  In either case, malpractice insurance rates go up, and that cost is passed on to the rest of us.  I worked for years and years in civil litigation, and this kind of stuff happens every day.  Many doctors (including my old primary physician) have quit practicing medicine because malpractice insurance has just gotten too expensive.
> 
> IMHO, we need some kind of reform than penalizes people (and their attorneys) who bring absolutely ridiculous lawsuits.  This is true also in other areas of civil litigation as well.  People sue over anything, and for huge amounts of money, because they see a big payday.  Makes me sick.



Perhaps the best cure for these ridiculous lawsuits would be if the "Losing" party had to pay for the legal expenses of the "winning" party.  That would go a long way towards reigning in much of this nonsense.


----------

