# Dangerous dog breeds



## Warrigal

I'm not afraid of dogs at all but there are some breeds/crossbreeds that IMO are not at all suitable as family pets.

Today in NSW we have news of two toddlers (2 yo) being attacked by dogs not previously considered to be dangerous. One little boy died, the other was spared by his mother throwing herself over him to keep the dog pack from tearing him to pieces.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/toddler-killed-in-dog-attack-at-grandmothers-house-20130805-2r8ad.html


I have a young female relative who keeps posting photos on Facebook to convince everyone that pit bulls as really just pussy cats and totally adorable but I'm not convinced. 

What do you think ?


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## Happyflowerlady

That is a terribly sad story, Warri, and it really does not provide much information to tell what actually happened, and caused the dog to attack. Mastiffs, like Great Danes, are usually not vicious, but they are extremely protective, and maybe something triggered that instinct in the dog and caused the attack.
The thing is, with these large dogs, once they attack, they cannot usually be stopped, and they are so big that they do a lot of damage.

Pit Bulls are often a product of their environment. When they are kept by people that breed them to be fighters, and not a loving family dog, that is what they turn out to be, and if they are on a pack, then they lose any restraint they might have had.
We had a stray pit bull when the kids were growing up, and she followed Robin around everywhere, and was as nice of a dog as you could ever ask for. 
I don't know what kind of life she had before she came to us straggly and starving, but she was treated with love after  we found her, and responded with the same.


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## Diwundrin

I only see one dog and one poor toddler mentioned in that but nonetheless a sad, sad thing.

A relative seems to think that buying a Rottweiler to protect her and the toddlers while her husband is away at work is a good idea.  I hope she's right, but not every dog will react the same way to the same stimuli.  I wouldn't be risking it.  If she's that scared she can put up security gear, lights and alarms which would keep the little ones safer than an antsy Rottweiler.

Most toddlers will never be bitten by a dog but the fact that every now and then one is should make people stop and think about the possibilities.

The most savage, outright b**tard of a dog I ever knew was a tiny fluffy Bichon Frize.  He drew plenty of blood from anything he could sink his teeth into but the damage was always below knee or elbow level.  I'd have shot the little bugger anyway but at least he couldn't inflict the damage a big dog can. He could have easily scarred a toddler for life though.

I don't believe it's the nature alone of particular breeds of dogs that make them dangerous, it's their capabilities to inflict damage that does that.
I'd hate for kids to be deprived of the company of dogs, every kid should have one.  But I do have reservations about the wisdom of kids under 3 or 4 being in close proximity to big dogs. 

We've all got dog stories, good and bad, it comes down personal decision when it comes to placing a level of trust in a particular dog around small children.

Note: the dog in this story was the dog of a visiting cousin from what I heard.  Perhaps it was never used to small children and as such should not have been allowed to have access to the child.  Common sense wasn't in the equation apparently.

There's a whisper around that it was actually trained as a pig dog!  But unsure if that's not just gossip.  Actually I've known some pretty placid pig dogs but around kids??


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## Warrigal

The dog in that instance was trained to be a pig dog and was quite large and very strong.

I agree that small dogs probably bite more, especially Chihuahuas, but the larger dogs are able to inflict serious damage and some breeds are more aggressive than others.

The most dangerous dog I ever had was a kelpie cross. She never bit anyone except once when a man came into our yard to borrow our box trailer. Hubby wasn't home and she must have reasoned that he was stealing it. She nipped at his feet as he was attempting to wheel it up to his car.

Even so, I would never allow her to be in close proximity to any visiting small children unless there was plenty of close supervisors around. She would be confined to the garage just in case.

It is unrealistic to believe that a dog will never bite. Powerful dogs bred for hunting cannot be assumed to be as benign as retrievers bred to fetch birds gently in their mouths or sheep dogs and guide dogs bred and trained for service.


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## Happyflowerlady

When my kids were little, we had a Great Dane, and she was a very gentle dog, and excellent with the kids. She was also very protective of them. One day, Robins little friend came to visit her, and Laurel was one of those kids that was a screecher. Every few minutes, she was excited about something, it seemed like. 
Well, pretty soon, they were holding the cat, and Laurel gave one of her screeches, and Juno, the Dane, ran to the rescue, grabbed the cat out of Laurels arms and had killed it before any of us could even move.

It was a sad lesson for everyone. The cat was dead, the girls were horrified, and Juno thought that she had saved them, but everyone was mad at her, which she could not begin to understand.
I realized how easily one of the girls could have been hurt, had Juno thought she needed to protect Robin for something. After that, we made sure the dog was tied up if there was company, just for safety's sake.
So, even when it is a dog that is trained, and well treated, accidents can happen.


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## Warrigal

> I only see one dog and one poor toddler mentioned in that but nonetheless a sad, sad thing.


Two separate instances Di. I heard the other one on radio and it isn't out in print yet apparently.


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## Diwundrin

Oh no, not another one?  Sorry Poll,  didn't hear about that.


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## JustBonee

Sad so many owners of pit bulls need a tragic incident to wake up.   They always say, but not my dog, until tragedy happens.  
I just can't think of pit bulls as anything but dangerous, have heard so many bad stories  ...  especially around little kids. 

My own encounter ...  I  ran into a convenience store one day and there was a pit bull tied outside the door.  He and I locked eyes and the look he gave me just terrified the daylights out of me!  Red eyeballs and all .. he looked like he wanted to chew anyone up..... was really scared to go back outside that store.


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## SifuPhil

I suppose that certain breeds because of their genetics are more apt to attack a human, but as I've always taught in my self-defense classes (yes, I taught defense against animals as well) you never know when an animal is going to revert to its primitive instincts. You can have all the Cesar Millan-approved training you want, but give friendly little Spot the right (wrong) stimulus and he's going to revert to being a wild animal. 

It is on that basis that you should make your decision whether to have a dog.


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## rkunsaw

It's true that even the friendliest family dog can attack at times.Most don't but there is always the possibility. More likely when there are several dogs.

Stray dogs or pets that run loose are the worst. They tend to form packs and forget their nice home life and return to pack behavior.


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## Diwundrin

Maybe there's some chemical change in them?  The reason I wonder is that a relative has a working dog.  It's good with cattle but not at much else.
 It's never been a pet, not even sure where it came from.  

It's looks are a problem because it's almost identical in size, colour and form to a Dingo but has none of the traits of a Dingo so not a cross, just unlucky. 
 Poor Paddy has to wear a bright pink fluoro collar to keep the neighbours from shooting him on sight. 



 It brooks no nonsense from anyone or anything.  It is a tough, "don't even think about patting me" dog. It'll take on a snake, another farm dog, random visitors when no-one's home,  whatever.  
 Yet when any feral dogs are around it hides under a seat.  
They're not Dingoes, just ordinary dogs gone wild. They look like a cross between Fido and Biffy, nothing remarkable to see except their sneaky behaviour.

 How does he know the difference between another farm dog and a feral from a distance?
Another strange thing is that he ignores a Dingo howling but slinks off under something when he hears some dogs barking and howling in the scrub at night.  Different 'language' too?


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## SeaBreeze

I've met some friendly pitbulls at the dog park, who are gentle and have been loved and properly socialized since they were puppies.  Once when camping, as we walked up the road with our dogs, we saw two pitbulls on short chains protecting a camper, I was very concerned that they might get loose and harm or kill my dogs.

There's a lot of horror stories on TV, about pitbull attacks on people and other animals.  The Animal Cops show filmed in Michigan shows way too many creeps who have their pitbulls on short HEAVY chains with padlocks on them, who are made to be mean and neglected by the owner, also used in dog fights.  It's so sad when they use a puppy or a weaker breed as a "bait" dog for training, they rarely survive, and if they do, they're so injured, that they'd be better off dead.  

Like already mentioned, the larger and stronger breeds can do much more damage before a fight can be broken up.  I heard that a dog who is attacking another can be stopped by putting your finger into their rectum.  I personally wouldn't have the nerve to try that technique.


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## That Guy

Every pitbull I've know would lick you to death.


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## Ozarkgal

Dogs are animals, and  they do not process information and reasoning as a human does. As with all animal they have strong base survival instincts, which includes an extreme sense of hearing, smell, fight or flight instinct, and sometimes sight. 

These instincts cause animals to view information in ways that humans cannot fully understand, and these instincts can override any behavioral training the animal may have, at any given moment.

 In the case of dogs, some are wired with much stronger senses.  Coupled with hunting, herding, protective, prey drive traits, and/or aggressive temperaments from possibly hundreds of years of selective breeding to insure these traits, nature can take over causing a dog to snap if the right set of circumstances are present. 

Different breeds are developed for different reasons, with highly varying temperament ranges within the same breed.

 Training and love will not over ride these instincts, and one cannot predict when a set of circumstances will come together to cause a dog to rely on base and bred-in instincts, as opposed to _behavioral_ training.

 Perhaps, the most important information is that by ancestral nature, dogs are pack animals with a hierarchy within the group. How this translates to living with humans is that if the owner or someone in the family does not establish the alpha role, the dog will take it on himself and tell everyone what to do. 

 Within the pack, which in a dog's mind is other people and animals living within the dog's established territory, everyone is assigned by the dog, a level of order in the hierarchy. It is up to the dog owners, that are parents of children to establish with the dog that the children are alpha to the dog. Once outside the territorial pack, or someone new comes into the area, all bets are off. The dog is then, if not advised otherwise, free to assign the new person or animal a place in the pack, or deem them an intruder or threat.

 For example, I have groomed dogs that even the owners cannot touch, they designated themselves the alpha of the pack. They have to be tranquilized for even the most routine veterinary care and grooming. 

 On the other side of the coin, I have groomed dogs that the owner swears is treacherous to family members, yet after a few minutes of establishing who the pack leader is in the grooming room, I never had a grooming problem with them. In fact, many of these types of alpha mentality dogs became my favorite dogs to work on, and they were always happy to see me. 

I specialized in grooming aggressive dogs.  Some had to be tranquilized at first, but I really worked with the animal and owner to try to overcome this, not only for the dog, but the owner's wallet as well.  I was successful in about 75 per cent of these cases, but would never, ever trust the dog not to revert to aggression with the wrong move. 

Some breeds have built-in high prey drives, protective and fighting instincts. In my opinion, it should never be taken for granted that dogs of these breeds are _safe,_ no matter how "_sweet_" they may seem, especially when being placed in a new situation with strangers, or small children who may unwittingly provoke the animal.

I made my sole living from dogs and horses for 25 years and have had hands on experience with most breeds of dogs and several of horses. I do believe that how an animal is trained, related to and socialized by their human caretakers can play a huge role in an animal's psyche and success in adapting to various situations. 

 Dogs of all sizes and shapes have base instincts, and coupled with the bred-in traits,  all are capable of inflicting varying degrees of injury. 

Thankfully, most dogs adapt very well to the human condition, and go through life providing us humans with lots of unconditional love and emotional support.

As far as Ceasar Milan goes..I think he is a good dog trainer and excellent entertainer, if only because he has the gift of fearlessness, guts and gab to do so.   

 What I don't like is the fact that he lulls the casual dog owner into a false sense of thinking that it's easy to turn aggressive dogs around. 

 He gets bitten occasionally on camera. What you're likely not seeing is the full blown aggression and injuries that happens off camera, as well as unsuccessful attempts to rehab a bad actor. I have my own, albeit unpopular, opinion on how aggressive dogs should be dealt with.

 This kind of lulling people into thinking they are trainers is prevalent in the horse world also..which can really get you killed. If dogs can be unpredictable at times, horses wrote the book, illustrated the pictures and published it themselves!

In the case of Pit Bulls, they have been unquestionably bred for fighting and aggressive mindsets, which are highly prized in certain unsavory circles.  If the dog is to be a family member, it is up to the owner to recognize that these traits are present in the psyche of the breed, even if they may seem dormant, and properly socialize and establish themself and others in contact with the dog as  alpha pack members.  There should never be a false sense of security that the dog will not flashback to his heritage given the right circumstance.

 Whew!......Sorry this is so long, but dogs, and in particular the Pitt Bull controversy, are much more complicated subjects than defenders of the breed saying things like, "I had a  _insert breed_ that was sweet and would never bite anyone." or "It's all in how the dog was raised". 

Not taking direct quotes from here, but only generalizing in what I have heard so many times over the years concerning many different breeds.


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## Diwundrin

Everybody has dog stories, all true, and indicative of the complexity of the dog/people relationship.  There's no hard fast rule that applies to all cases.  We're supposed to be the 'smart' half of the partnership, too many cases crop up where that isn't all too obvious.

[story alert]

Arrived at my cousin's place in a country town at dusk.  They weren't home from work yet but I knew where the key was so threw the suitcase in and headed outside for a smoke.  It was drizzling rain and the shed door was open so I stood in the doorway for a bit and then saw something coming towards me in the gloom.
I hit the light switch and there, 5 feet in front of me was a heavy set, low slung dog with a pitbull's head.  A fearsome creature to behold.
 It gave no signs away, just stood and stared at me. No snarl, no tail wag, just bein' Joe Cool and letting me do my figuring out while he summed me up.

 So, wadda ya do when you think you're possibly on the menu?   You pretend it's a small child and say in a silly friendly voice "hello, where did you come from?, do you want to get in the shed?, just let me stand aside for you"  .

  I kept talking to that dog until he couldn't stand it any longer and came slowly to, and past me into the shed and curled up on a pile of bags at the back.  I finished the smoke and headed calmly into the house as my cousin and husband arrived home.

She cracked up laughing when I told her.  She'd forgotten to tell me about 'Fat Boy'.  We never knew his real name.  A friend  owned him but as 'Fat Boy' was known to hunt and eat neighbour's cats he thought it a good idea to 'retire' him from the yard as his daughter and young child were moving in with him.
So the short and nasty story was that Sal was 'minding' him until her brother could come for him and take him out in the bush and shoot him.  
But Sal grew quite fond of him so he was on reprieve.  

He was the heaviest dog I ever encountered, but not fat, as his new name suggested, he was just pure muscle and was built like a boulder.
Not long after, I bought and moved into the house next door and for a few years Fat Boy spent every day in my place and just went home at night. He was a great pal, and if he wanted to show me something would grab my hand and lead me to it.  I'd seen those jaws snap a lamb leg bone and grind it to dust yet I was never nervous about him.  

 Until something changed in him.  As he aged he got more and more nervous.  He began to freak out if a storm was coming. The army barracks and mines were nearby and explosions were just a part of the background noise there but he started to react in panic to the sounds.  I always took him home when I was going out, but one day I arrived home to find him shaking and 'crying' at my back door, covered in blood.  

There was a storm coming and he'd panicked and tore a strip out of the steel panel fence and squeezed through, hence the blood.  Now that was getting to be scary enough but he then started climbing the gates and getting out amongst the neighbours.  He took great pride in showing me a strip of cat hide one day and we had to consider what could happen if he got out when the kids were coming past from school. They strung up an electric fence around the yard as a last resort but even that didn't stop him.  He'd take the charge and keep going!

 After all those years of being a cool calm friend,  he'd gone back to his old ways and was no longer the dog we knew and loved.  His sentence was eventually carried out but at least he'd had a few good years more than originally intended.  

We were all distraught about him, I missed him terribly and cried for days but he really was just too dangerous to risk.   To put it simply he just wasn't Fatboy any more, he had become 'someone' else entirely.

We may have been lucky that it was a slow change, some may change faster.

[/end story]


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## SifuPhil

Great (but sad) story, Di.

I wonder if that's similar to humans that get Alzheimer's? If so, I still wonder at the disconnect that we put a dog like that down but not a human ... granted the human might not be such a danger to others as the dog, but the deterioration of the mind would I think be similar - a reversion to a more primitive state.


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## Warrigal

Very interesting posts.

It is interesting when some dogs that are snappy around adults show tenderness and protective behaviour towards little children.
Apparently my first friend was my grandfather's rather elderly cocker spaniel. As a young dog he has survived distemper and it was thought that it affected his brain which may or may not have been a reality. He was a dog that you did not approach while he was feeding. Mum and I lived with Pop while my dad was away in the war and the dog and I were very close friends. I was the only one who could approach him when feeding but then I was also the only one who shared my food with him, bite for bite and lick for lick. Even so, a bite from a cocker spaniel would have been no more than a sharp lesson. I doubt that he would have torn me to pieces.

The story about the Downes Syndrome child and the rottweiler reminded me of friends who has a very badly affected daughter. They had a Samoyed bitch who watched over her when she was crawling and would physically stand between the child and the back steps to protect her. The child was quite cruel to the dog, unconsciously of course, but the dog accepted all the abuse without any response. This same Samoyed raised the pups of the other family pet which was a totally useless Chihuahua. The Chihuahua killed her first litter by attempting to jump up and down from the bed and abandoned her second litter and the Samoyed took over the job. It had nothing to do with training. She just had very strong mother instincts.

We have a cattle dog breed over here that is often kept as a family pet. They are very protective of their family, particularly the children. For this reason they can be dangerous when children are playing together if the dog thinks their charge is threatened. They are wonderful dogs but they cannot be fully trusted.

The Australia Cattle Dog, otherwise known as the blue heeler.


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## Ozarkgal

SifuPhil said:


> I wonder if that's similar to humans that get Alzheimer's? If so, I still wonder at the disconnect that we put a dog like that down but not a human ... granted the human might not be such a danger to others as the dog, but the deterioration of the mind would I think be similar - a reversion to a more primitive state.



Yes, dogs as they age can mentally deteriorate with age, just as humans with Alzheimer's.  It's called Canine Cognitive Dysfunction.  There is a drug on the market, Anapryl used to treat this condition.  Not sure how successful it is though. 

AAAnnnnnndddd......speaking of dogs, another one just showed up in my yard this evening.  A young black lab....I guess the word is out in the dog pipeline that this is the place to come.  After putting him on the other side of the gate in the driveway and hoping he would explore other options, he followed the fence down to the creek and came back in.  He is now tucked in the pasture cooling his heels, crying his heart out.   Dayum!!


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## Diwundrin

TWH, I'm pretty sure the Australian Shepherd is a very different dog from the Blue Heeler.  Actually the A.Shep is an American breed from memory. The name is a misnomer.  
 It would be a very rare farmer who put a Blue Heeler onto sheep, they play far too rough.  They're bred for cattle work and aren't called 'heelers' for the their obedience, they're called that because they bite the heels of 'stroppy cattle to bring them into line. I believe they were bred with a touch of Dingo DNA in them which is why they can be a bit iffy behaviour wise.  They're usually just called Cattle Dogs.  Sheep are a bit delicate for that kind of treatment. We use mainly Kelpies and Border Collies for sheep.

I had a cross B.Collie/ Blue cattle dog in the city and he used to round up cars when he got out.  He'd go in low and fang the back tyres, that heeling instinct is just inbuilt.
He eventually lost the tips off most his canine teeth learning the hard way that cars aren't cattle and wheels ain't heels.  


 I'd had him since he was a pup and he was never trained as a herder, just instinctual.  He'd even try to round up a flock of birds, and would line dead leaves up and watch 'em until the wind moved one so he could pounce on it and put it back in place.  

I took pity on him and gave him back to an Uncle in the country who had owned Blue's mother who had recently died.  
He was a mines deputy and living in a house that went with the job and there was the whole mine lease for Blue to run and chase things on so he was happier there.  Those type of dogs shouldn't be kept in cities.

[Story]...  The mine manager had a couple of Clydesdales that he kept on the lease.  They were descendents of the 'pit ponies' and had been on that land for generations.  So Blue, being what he was, and a new boy in town, decided to organize them.  In he went, low and intent on the back heel but these old horses were nobody's fools.

The one he went for lifted the foot just before he got there and stamped it down so hard that a cloud of dust and noise went up right in Blue's face. 
 He skidded to a stop underneath it then took off for home.  We were doubled up laughing on the back porch watching all this.  Far as I heard he never even looked at those horses again.
He was incredibly lucky he only heard that huge hoof and didn't wear it on his face. 

 I heard a while later that the entire mining crew were laughing for weeks about him trying to round up the stray cats that lived under the lunchroom.  They said you could hear him howling a mile away as he headed home,  full tilt,  with 4 or 5 cats chasing him.   He wasn't as successful at his job in the country as he had seemed as a city boy. 



[/end story]


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## Bee

*Killer dogs' owners in England and Wales could face life in prison*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23578561


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## Warrigal

In general I agree that a custodial sentence might be appropriate for some attacks but IMO life would have to be reserved for someone who sooled their dogs onto someone, resulting is death.


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## muckferret

I had an Alsation dingo cross which from all accounts had been injured as a pup this left him fearful of strangers and other dogs, one day a big Goanna (lizard) came
across the property not far from where he was dozing, strewth talk about change he took of after that lizard at 100 miles an hour snarling all the way until i called him off.

What i witnessed was the dingo in him come to life, so yes when you think you know them they show you different.


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## Bee

Warrigal said:


> In general I agree that a custodial sentence might be appropriate for some attacks but IMO life would have to be reserved for someone who sooled their dogs onto someone, resulting is death.



Whatever sentencing laws are bought in, not everyone will agree with them.

An owner doesn't have to set their dogs onto anyone for it too attack, but there are those irresponsible dog owners that know their dog is not safe out in public with out some sort of restraint on them.


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## That Guy

Never mess with an angry Asthma Hound Chihuahua . . .


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## Warrigal

Of course, dogs are not the only dangerous animals that some people keep as pets.
This is a very sad story from Canada



> *Police: Python escaped cage inside apartment, not store*
> 
> Natalie DiBlasio and Michael Winter, USA TODAY     5:55 p.m. EDT August 6, 2013
> 
> *Canadian authorities said 100-pound African snake that killed two young brothers is prohibited in New Brunswick.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An African rock python that escaped its enclosure killed two young brother during a sleepover in owner's home above the exotic pet store in Campbellton, New Brunswick, Canada.(Photo: John LeBlanc, AP)
> 
> 
> The African rock python that killed two young New Brunswick brothers escaped from its floor-to-ceiling glass cage in the apartment where the boys were sleeping, not from the exotic pet store below, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said Tuesday. The snake, which was about 16 feet long and weighed 100 pounds, apparently entered a ceiling vent sometime late Sunday or early Monday and slithered through the ducts before crashing into the store owner's living room, where 4-year-old Noah Barthe and 6-year-old Connor Barthe were sleeping, police said at a news briefing. The son of  store owner Jean-Claude Savoie was asleep in another room and not harmed.
> 
> Autopsies were being conducted on the boys Tuesday. Pythons are non-venomous and kill by strangulation.
> The snake, which Savoie captured after discovering the dead boys,  was euthanized Monday and was to undergo a necropsy to possibly learn more about the rare attack on humans. Savoie said that he had the snake for about 10 years and that it was kept alone and not handled by anyone else. Authorities also announced that the African rock python is banned in the province and that Savoie may  not have been licensed to keep the species at Reptile Ocean in Campbellton, which opened in 1995. The store is registered as a reptile zoo that charges admission for educational purposes.
> 
> Savoie told the Global News television station that he didn't hear a sound and discovered the "horrific scene" about 6:30 a.m. Monday when he went into his living room.
> 
> "I can't believe this is real," he said.
> 
> The killings surprised and confounded reptile experts. The last reported attack on a human by an African rock python occurred in South Africa in 2002, when a 10-year-old boy was strangled and swallowed.
> 
> John Kendrick, a manager at the Reptile Store in Hamilton, Ontario, said it sounds as if the python was not enclosed properly and might have been spooked. He called the strangling deaths "very unusual," but said African rock pythons tend to be a little more high-strung than other species.
> 
> Pythons are among the largest snakes on Earth and can reach more than 26 feet and weigh up to 200 pounds. They are carnivores and can quickly knock a person out with a squeeze around the head or neck, cutting off air and blood flow — which is why experts say they should not be kept as pets.
> 
> Tens of thousands of Burmese pythons are believed to be living in the Florida Everglades. Some owners are freeing the giant snakes when they grow too large. Others may have escaped from pet shops during Hurricane Andrew in 1992. They have been reproducing ever since and appear to be wiping out large numbers of raccoons, opossums and bobcats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laws on keeping a snake as a pet vary depending on where you live. In response to the tragedy that left the two boys dead, the city of Montreal is considering stiffening its laws on exotic snakes. As of now, people can own non-venomous snakes under 3 metres long.


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## SifuPhil

Ah, see how news stories can change in the blink of an eye?

My student just told me about this kid-eating snake story today and he told me it had escaped from the pet shop and gone up the ventilation shaft.

Thanks for posting that, Warri - the truth has set me free.


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## Happyflowerlady

Dogs, like fire, or water, can be either a lifesaver, or a life taker, totally depending on the dog and the circumstances. 
I believe there are many more stories of dogs saving humans, or being devoted to them in ways that help that person live life better, than there are stories of dogs injuring or even killing someone . 
With something like the snake, most people would not expect it to be safe around a child, but with a dog, we do expect that, and usually, the dogs do not disappoint us.
When my daughter , Robin, was around 9-10, we got her a dog from the dog pound that was the best dog in the world, and she lived with that dog, night and day. Casey was part Samoyed, and part Blue Heeler, or perhaps Australian Shepard. He had the Blue Heeler look in his head, and the fluffy coat of the Samoyed , and the Merle spots of an Aussie. He would walk her to the school bus every morning, and be right there waiting when the school bus came in the afternoon. When she was out riding on her pony, Casey was right there protecting her, and he slept beside her bed at night. 
We could not have asked for a better dog, and I know he would have given his life to protect her, had the situation arose.
I think it is sad that so many dogs now are simply raised to be fighters, and that is all they learn, and never have the chance to become someone's beloved companion. I think that some of these dogs that have attacked people might have been different with a better life.


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## Jillaroo

_I was bitten on my face when only very young by my aunties Red Setter, she always said to me don't kiss him, but being a kid i did and he attacked me which shocked my aunty, he had to be muzzled after that as he turned nasty.
                 I lived opposite a park a few years back and was so scared of all the dogs being allowed to run free while the owners gossiped together, they had no idea what their dogs were doing and there were lots of small children in the park, i feel that was very irresponsible of the dog owners.
           Another time i was walking in the park with a friend when a woman with Five dogs approached , they were all off their leads and came at us and circled around us growling and snarling, i told the woman to get her dogs away from me as i was terrified, she came back saying "Oh don't worry they won't bite you" i retaliated by saying "And how do you know that , could you guarantee that they wouldn't bite me and besides i have no idea what your dog is capable of doing i suggest you put them back on their leads" she treated it as a joke which made me very angry, no-one understands the terror a person who has been bitten by a dog feels when a dog who isn't on a lead confronts them, i couldn't walk my little Maltese for fear that i would be attacked or he would be.
                 I feel it should be mandatory for all dog owners to take their dogs to a recognised Dog training school like i did with my German Shepherd so that they have control of their dogs, and if they aren't registered breeders all dogs by law should be desexed. Then maybe we may not have so many dogs roaming the streets and being euthanised by the RSPCA or the dog and cat protection society in your country _


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## Ozarkgal

Jillaroo..I00% agree that all dogs and cats should be altered, and I will go one step further and and say that licensed breeders should have their kennels randomly inspected once a year at their expense to knock out puppy mill breeders and insure that the breeding animals are humanely cared for.

A trip to a kill shelter, with all those hopeful eyes looking at you, should convince anyone.

As for people taking their dogs out in public, this is the quickest way to separate the responsible owners from the true a-holes.  This was very much evidenced when they built a nice new dog park near my home in Texas.  They had the foresight to build two separate areas, one for small to medium dogs and another for large dogs.  Now, clearly not every dog is a candidate for off leash socializing in a dog park  
But some owners of  these dogs have the misguided notion that they have a right to be there, never mind that their dog is a bully, doesn't play well with others, or is downright aggressive.  This mostly happened in the large dog area, with many fights breaking out and even people getting bit, or worse into fights themselves.  A lot of this happened because owners are busy socializing with other owners and instead of paying attention to their dog and making necessary corrections for bad behavior.

The other major problem, and the reason I quit going there is because some large dog owners were afraid to take their dog to the appropriate large dog area, either because they were afraid themselves of the dogs or because they had both large and small dogs, so opted to bring the big dog into the small side.  More than one big argument arose between the small dog owners and the large dog owners. 

 Large dog owners would always maintain their dog was not mean and would not hurt any other dog.  As I tried to explain to one lady after a loud argument broke out between her and several other small dog owners regarding her Dobie being in with small dogs, it was not so much the fact her dog might attack a small dog, but that by the sheer size of her dog, simply jumping on and playing with a small fragile breed such as a yorkie, maltese or such, could accidentally seriously injure it..she was buying none of it and insisted she had the right to be there if she wanted to, and plopped her butt down on the ground as if she were in protest mode..  

I went there to enjoy nice weather in a place where my dogs could run, sniff, mark territory and socialize, but after several of these types of incidents, it was more stressful than fun and we quit going.  

The last few years that I lived in the neighborhood, I would not even take my dogs for a walk around the block on leash for fear of being attacked by loose dogs. 

I have so many freakin' dog stories, I should just write a book and get it over with!

I read that story about the python killing the two little boys...it was a horrific, negligent situation and the sanke owner's head should roll for that one.  I'm sorry, but reptiles and exotic animals are NOT pets.  Pets are animals that have been domesticated for centuries to depend on humans for food and shelter and serve as companions.


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## Diwundrin

With you there, if can't talk to them and get a response then they're not pets.
I'm not capable of taking poor Belle for long walks now so she was very restricted for exercise until I moved here.  Now I take her over to the beach in the car when I can and turn her loose.  The seagulls exercise her if there's no other dogs over there and when they are, they all get along fine because it's neutral ground. 
I think she was in love with a whopping great clumsy Doberman cross horse there for a while, thought she was going home with him. 

  She only came up to his knees!

 It's  a fairly deserted, isolated beach and Council approved leash free.  Bliss.  A friend used to meet me there with her small  terrier cross about Belle's size and weight and it and Belle would romp together as long a we let them. But when she brought poor Missy to my place Belle absolutely monstered her. It was hackles up the whole time. Although she didn't attack her, she made it plain she wasn't welcome, and where ever Missy sat down Belle moved her on. 

 Belle is a small JRXMini Foxy with a big alpha ego and  brooks no other dogs on her patch.  She's a downright embarrassment really.   Neutral ground is the only answer for her. She won't even tolerate birds landing in 'her' yard.  Except people are okay, she just gets excited and welcomes all comers which isn't much use if it's a mugger coming in.  She's only ever growled at one person in her life and that was a shifty looking door to door bloke who I felt like growling at too.

She was the product of a puppy farm and bought from a pet shop then proved too much of an energy bomb for their toddlers to cope with, so I inherited/rescued  her.  She'll never win a prize for looks and especially not for obedience, but she's a close and reliable friend so who cares?

[story alert]
An elderly (80s) friend lost her little silky terrier to the tyranny of old age and was desperate to get another dog for company but didn't want to train a pup.
So, off she went with her niece to the pound to pick a new friend. Found one on the first visit.  Nice quiet little fluffy thing?  Noooooo.  The dog she picked was a crossbred blue cattle dog with a brown head that would have suited a pig dog!  It was possibly one of the uglier dogs I've ever seen.  It was about 5 or 6 years old and anything but friendly.  It was coldly tolerant, but never friendly.  None of us could work out what she saw in that awful dog.  We thought she'd gone dotty and were a little fearful for her as it came with no history at all, just picked up as a stray and on death row.  

But that dog absolutely adored her to exclusion of all else.  It let no one near her until he'd checked them out with a good sniffing and if he approved he'd move to the side and watch.
If not then he'd sit between between them and fix the visitor with a steely eye.  It slept in the hall across her doorway on the bare boards until she eventually gave up and brought his bed in from the laundry and put it just inside the bedroom door. 

She lived just two houses up from the local post office and shops and one day we had a robbery.  Big excitement, cops, sirens, the whole bit as these idiots were on foot. 
 The cops were searching along the back lane behind her house and looking in all the yards for the purps.  Mary came to the back door to see what the ruckus was in time to see Bill launching himself at the face of a cop who was looking over the fence.  She told us she heard "Shiiiiiiit!" and then "Well they're not in that f*****g yard!"



Seems she'd picked the right dog after all.   She obviously saw something in him that we'd all missed.

[/end story]


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## SifuPhil

Ozarkgal said:


> ...   I'm sorry, but reptiles and exotic animals are NOT pets.  Pets are animals that have been domesticated for centuries to depend on humans for food and shelter and serve as companions.



Doesn't that leave out a major portion of today's pet market, though? Canaries and parakeets, finches, parrots, fish both fresh- and salt-water, turtles, mice, rats, Guinea pigs, gerbils ... none of those are truly _domesticated_. 

What you're proposing is the bankruptcy of the international pet supply business, and I plan on informing PetCo and all the other major retailers of this incident. :concern:


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## That Guy

Soon, I'm hoping to obtain a domesticated cross-bred SifuPhil.  I think I'll name it . . . That One.  I hear they're illegal to own, though...


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## SifuPhil

That Guy said:


> Soon, I'm hoping to obtain a domesticated cross-bred SifuPhil.  I think I'll name it . . . That One.  I hear they're illegal to own, though...



That's because they fly ...


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## TICA

The snake incident happened in New Brunswick and I am in the neighboring province so it is all over our news.  Truly horrific and not your run of the mill incident.  They'll be a huge investigation and hopefully this will never happen again.  From what I've seen on the news, this is not the norm at all - one snake constricting two children?  I can't help but wonder if there is something else going on with this story that just hasn't come out yet.

But back to dogs!   I've always had pound puppies and have had many conversations with breeders who feel that when you buy a purebred dog, you have a better idea what the temperament and general personality traits of the dog will be and I do agree that has merit.  When you buy a rescue, you don't know what you are getting - and I agree with that as well.  Either way, if a person has a dog who hasn't been around other animals or small children, then don't think that everything will be rosy when they do.  I had my snuggle bug Sam for 15 years and she never had any kind of aggression issues, but if someone came to visit with small children, I watched her like a hawk.  Not that I thought she would do anything, but holy moly - I didn't want to take any chances.  I do the same with the two I have now.  I love my dogs and don't ever want to be in a position where I'd have to put them down because they did something that is not acceptable, and I certainly wouldn't want anyone or anything harmed by them either.   As for various breeds, I'd like to see specific mandatory training for people who breed or adopt aggressive breeds and that could include poodles as well.  We have a license to drive a car or boat yet anyone can have a dog.  Just doesn't make sense to me.  

I'm agreeing with That Guy - I too have met a number of pit bulls and have yet to encounter a mean one, most of them would lick you to death though....  I'm sure any dog has the potential to bite if intimidated so dog owners just need to really know their pet and take necessary precautions.


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## SifuPhil

TICA said:


> I'm agreeing with That Guy - I too have met a number of pit bulls and have yet to encounter a mean one, most of them would lick you to death though....



Oh, I have. There's a reason that pit bulls are the most-used breed in American dog fighting.

I've encountered several owners that capitalized on the pit bull's breeding as a fighting dog. You couldn't get near those dogs unless they already knew you, and the owners _wanted_ it that way. They'd go for a stroll down the street and everyone had to cross to the other side, just because those dogs were trained to be so vicious.

I know there are breed lovers that argue for their docility and loving qualities, but that doesn't get rid of all the many true-life stories of attacks. Whether it's due to nature or nurture the fact remains that they're one of the most dangerous breeds around.


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## Diwundrin

It's not only the breeding or even the nature of the dogs that should be considered, it's their capacity to inflict damage.  Pit bulls have far higher jaw strength than most other breeds, they also have a 'hang on' instinct that others lack.

I might compare it to vehicles.  We all have cars, some like big bossy looking vehicles for whatever reason,be it personal feelings of inadequacy or for pure  practicality, duzzen madder, but those of us who feel the need to drive to work in fully functioning army tanks are prevented from being legally able to do so. 
(Damn!)
 Same with dogs.  If they come 'armed for combat' then they need to be strictly licenced to only those fully qualified to handle their operating procedures and security.


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## Happyflowerlady

Di,  what you are suggesting makes absolutely perfect sense, and if only the  people who were legally licensed for defense dogs, were allowed to have any of the dangerous breeds, there would be none of the druggies strutting them down the streets, or the breeders that fight them using the dogs for that, and the whole situation would be much better. 

Sadly, laws enforcing those kinds of rules would not work any better than prohibition did for alcohol, or than the gun laws would to stop criminals from getting assault rifles. Dogs would simply become another black market item like guns and drugs. 

Even the authorities do not always want to be involved. We lived in a bad neighborhood in Spokane (WA), and the druggies and motorcycle gangs were in that area, and of course, their Pitts, Rotties, and Dobies ; which they sometimes kept tied up out back, and starved if they were on a bike run. If one of the dogs got loose, there was a huge dog fight, and the animal control people would not even try to help, or to pick up the dogs.

We talked the bikers next door into letting us have a little skinny Dobie , and you could not keep food in front of that little dog. She knew that if it was not immediately gobbled down, some bigger dog would get it, and who knew when more might appear. That dog literally ate until she looked very pregnant, so I stopped putting food down, and just kept her fed enough that she knew food would always be coming.
  I milked the goat, and added that to her food, and she was soon fat and happy, but still terrified of fast movements  or loud noises.  She loved her new home and was devoted to us, and we had her a long time after that, with no problems ever.


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## Warrigal

TICA said:
			
		

> From what I've seen on the news, this is not the norm at all - one snake constricting two children?  I can't help but wonder if there is something else going on with this story that just hasn't come out yet.


This had me wondering too. One I can understand but why the second child wasn't heard screaming his lungs out beats me.


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## Happyflowerlady

That was the first thing that I was thinking also, why wasn't at least one of the kids screaming, and trying to get away.neing attacked by a constrictor would not be a fast way to die, and if the snake wrapped around the first child, you would ave thought that he would be screaming, unless the snake had his whole head in its mouth, and even so, the second child should have awakened and sounded an alarm. So there has to be a whole lot more to the tragedy than they are letting out at this time.
I wondered if maybe no one else was home, for some reason, so there was no one to hear the children.
And it seems really strange if they had kept the snake there for a long time that it would suddenly escape. This is just a really weird story, I agree.


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## That Guy




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## Jambi

Diwundrin said:


> TWH, I'm pretty sure the Australian Shepherd is a very different dog from the Blue Heeler.  Actually the A.Shep is an American breed from memory. The name is a misnomer.
> 
> 
> [/end story]



Yes and yes.

The name comes from the fact that they were used to heard sheep that were imported from Australia.

After my first one, they're the only dog I'll own. On my third one.


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## GDAD

These are the Australian Kelpies, probably one of the best working dogs around,
Used predominatly for rounding up sheep, & cattle, They love to be worked & are very loyal to their owners.
http://www.wingdariaustraliankelpies.com/aust-kelpie-standard-1.asp


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## Jillaroo

_*This is the Australian Shepherd *_ 

 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/australianshepherd.htm


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