# Another Ruby Ridge type of attack about to take place in Nevada.



## Happyflowerlady (Apr 8, 2014)

Most of us in America remember the attack on Randy Weaver and his family that took place near a small north Idaho town. His home was surrounded, and a government sharpshooter shot and killed Randy's wife as she stood holding their baby.  Randy was represented in court by "The Buckskin Attorney", and eventually won, but at great personal loss to himself and his family.

Now, a rancher in Nevada is having his cattle confiscated by government officials over a dispute about the land where his cattle have grazed for years. 
When he tried to video the roundup of his cattle, he was threatened by government officials with rifles pointed at him, and they set a dog on him and arrested him. His father tried to call and find out where he was taken, and was told to get off the phone or he would be arrested as well.

So, not only is the government now doing house to house searches with no warrants, they are now starting to confiscate the private property of citizens without due process, or a valid reason. 

http://www.infowars.com/federal-snipers-train-guns-on-family-for-filming-cattle/


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## Davey Jones (Apr 8, 2014)

There's more to this story if you read the local newspaper.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/feds-start-rounding-bundy-s-cattle-northeastern-clark-county


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't like government takeovers like this, and it's funny how they can video us, but we can't video them.    We often travel on BLM land and see many cattle grazing, I didn't even think that the owners had to pay for that.  See those cattle in national forests also.


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## That Guy (Apr 8, 2014)




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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 8, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> There's more to this story if you read the local newspaper.
> 
> http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/feds-start-rounding-bundy-s-cattle-northeastern-clark-county



I did read the article posted in the local (media owned) newspaper, which certainly slants the whole story in favor of the government control, rather than the plight of a local farmer.  Even though he has been in contact with news media (Fox News), they are not showing this in the news broadcasts at all, so it is another case of controlled media coverage.

Regardless of whether they think he owes money for using the open range for cattle; this is certainly NO reason to set up an armed compound and prepare to kill him and his family, like they did with Randy Weaver in Idaho. 
this kind of thing should be settled legally, and not by attacking and threatening this farmer.

Here is what he says about the current situation, and it sure looks to me like it is shaping up just like the Ruby Ridge situation did. If this keeps up, another American patriot will end up losing his home, and probably, his life, as well. 
(Gun control people... notice that it is the government, not the farmer; who is doing the threatening with heavily armed shooters surrounding this non-militant farmer.)

Just before the round-up began this weekend, Bundy said federal agents surrounded his 150-acre ranch. His son was arrested on Sunday in an incident involving the agents. “They’ve been bringing men in and equipment and setting up a compound,” Bundy told FoxNews.com Monday. “They got helicopters flying low. They got snipers around the ranch.

Our access to public lands has been blocked.” “We’re not pointing guns at anyone but we’re sure getting a lot of guns pointed at us.” – Carol Bundy, wife of Nevada rancher.

Bundy said he is worried BLM might try to turn the situation into another Waco or Ruby Ridge. “Yeah, there’s a little fear in me,” Bundy said. “They’re definitely set up to do that.”




HappyFlowerLady


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## RCynic (Apr 8, 2014)

The real issue, to me, is the fact that some field agent from a no name federal agency's SWAT team can tell a citizen where and when he can exercise constitutional rights. This is like the constitution free zone at our borders. The problem is that it extends so deep into the continent, thereby affecting large numbers of people.

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2013/02/does-a-constitution-free-zone-really-exist-in-america/

How much more erosion of our rights are we willing to tolerate? From the link, "The DHS said that customs and immigration agents can “exercise long-standing constitutional and statutory authority permitting suspicionless and warrantless searches of merchandise at the border *and its functional equivalent.*”"


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 9, 2014)

Another interesting development in this story. 
One of the main reasons that the BLM does not want this rancher to graze his cattle on the BLM land is because of a desert tortoise that lives there.  According to the rancher, the tortoises actually eat cattle "cow pies" as part of their food; so the cows are not endangering the tortoises at all, despite what the BLM asserts.
However, in an article that  I was just reading today, the government has decided to stop caring for the tortoises, and in fact, are now going to KILL hundreds of the poor creatures...... Does this make any sense ?? 
They are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to set up a huge military compound on the cattle range to keep the cows out; but can't afford to feed the tortoises they are supposedly protecting.

http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archi...ts-conservation-center-runs-out-of-money.html


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2014)

Can we have an update?
What has actually gone down?


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 9, 2014)

So far, from what I have read, and seen on the youtube videos, the BLM is setting up a  huge, expensive compound, and putting up barricades so that Rancher Bundy can't take care of his cattle. 
They are running the cattle to exhaustion with helicopters (just like the BLM does with the wild horses), so that they can then be herded off in cattle trucks to be slaughtered somewhere.
The sheriff there has been criticized by most of the locals, and Bundy supporters seem to be coming in from all around.
Here is the link to their Ranch Blog, and it has the videos and pictures that they have been posting, along with the daily updates.

http://bundyranch.blogspot.com/


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2014)

BLM? This is not something that I am not familiar with.
I'm assuming some kind of government agency, but at what level?


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 9, 2014)

Some info on the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)...http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en.html


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks for the link. Now I have a better idea what is going on.



> *Fact Sheet on the BLM’s Management of Livestock Grazing*
> 
> *Grazing on Public Lands*
> 
> ...



 Is there a problem with the Bundy's permit/lease?


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes. I have been reading more about this, and it seems neither side is helping the situation here. He let his lease run out, and now refuses to pay it, claiming it is public land, so he shouldn't have to pay it. The cattlemen's association are not backing him, and that in itself says a whole lot.
Also, there is an article that i haven't read yet that claims that he had more cows than he was supposed to have on that amount of acreage, and it said that the cattle were starving, and that is why the BLM stepped in.
So this is not what he is supposed to be doing; however, it is not right for them to set up an armed compound, and fly helicopters over them, and seem to be pushing the issue. If he doesn't relent, it does not look like it will end well at this point.  


HappyFlowerLady


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2014)

It always helps to get the picture from both sides.

I'm currently caught in the middle of warring members of staff at a child care centre, and we've had to employ an independent investigator to get to the bottom of the allegations flying in both directions. Both sides seem to be wearing blinkers.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 9, 2014)

Remembering what happened to Randy Weaver and his family, I would think that this man should be thinking more about what could happen to his family than not paying his land lease. If someone dies from his stand, wrong or right, will he then think it was worth it ?? 
These SWAT team sharpshooter will not back down, and they will shoot them or burn them out . 


HappyFlowerLady


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 9, 2014)

I feel bad for all the animals involved, wasn't following the story, horrible that he had the cattle starving.  Good to see both sides for sure!  Warrigal, I hope the children weren't being abused, hope the investigator gets to the truth.


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2014)

No child abuse. Just bitchiness between members of staff and accusations of bullying and harassment flying in all directions.
It's all very juvenile IMO but like high school situations, it has become rather toxic.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 9, 2014)

Good to know the children are okay, now if the adults would just grow up!


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 10, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> I feel bad for all the animals involved, wasn't following the story, horrible that he had the cattle starving.  Good to see both sides for sure!  Warrigal, I hope the children weren't being abused, hope the investigator gets to the truth.



This morning, it is finally being shown on Fox News. There are pictures of the cattle out there, eating, and relaxing by the stream. They all look very healthy, and not starving at all; so that is probably just another one of the stories being promoted by the BLM.
Just like they say that they are protecting the tortoise; yet another article says that now they have no more money to care for them, so the BLM is actually going to kill the tortoises.
Crazy !  I am just hoping this can be resolved with no one being shot or burned out like the Waco tragedy.
The BLM is also the one that uses helicopters to run down the wild horses, separating the mares from their foals, and running all of them to exhaustion in the process. I read this a while back, but will look for the article again. It is another one of those things that our money pays for the government to do.



HappyFlowerLady


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2014)

Now they say it's all related to fracking leases? http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html


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## Warrigal (Apr 10, 2014)

My inner Mulder says someone's lying.
Or at least, exaggerating.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 10, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Now they say it's all related to fracking leases? http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html



Great find, SB, and this makes the whole  thing make sense now ! 
I couldn't see why it dragged on all those years, but now was about to become an all-out war to get Bundy off of the land. Since they were already killing the tortoises, obviously that didn't have anything to do with any of it either. 
With all the fracking going on, and the big time money involved in that, now it makes sense why they would go to all this  just to get rid of one rancher and his cows.


HappyFlowerLady


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2014)

I can't believe what they're doing to the poor tortoises...insane.


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## Warrigal (Apr 10, 2014)

Who's doing what to the tortoises?


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2014)

If I'm understanding it correctly, the Bureau of Land Management is saying that since this rancher hasn't paid fees for his cattle grazing on their land, they can no longer afford to keep the endangered desert tortoise reserve in that area, it doesn't sound kosher to me.  http://guardianlv.com/2013/08/desert-tortoises-to-be-euthanized/


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## Jackie22 (Apr 11, 2014)

The way I read this...the conservatory is being closed down due to lack of funds and the sick and disease turtles that can not fend for themselves will be euthanized...this is the humane thing to do.

As for this rancher character, he is a moocher and a thief, he is scamming the system and breaking the law, if his thinking was correct, anyone could move into this land and use it for any profit they desired....never mind all of the hoopla he is stirring up about the big bad government.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2014)

From this great distance, it looks like that to me too, Jackie.
His story lacks credibility when you use a common sense filter.

The tortoises are a complete red herring IMO.
I think the issue of csg leases is another diversion.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 11, 2014)

Jackie22 said:


> The way I read this...the conservatory is being closed down due to lack of funds and the sick and disease turtles that can not fend for themselves will be euthanized...this is the humane thing to do.
> 
> As for this rancher character, he is a moocher and a thief, he is scamming the system and breaking the law, if his thinking was correct, anyone could move into this land and use it for any profit they desired....never mind all of the hoopla he is stirring up about the big bad government.



Obviously, if the government wants to eliminate someone; they don't hesitate to bring in the armed attack teams to do it; all the while blaming it on the people they are killing. 
There was nothing humane about burning alive all those poor children at Waco, nor about the sharpshooter shooting Randy Weavers innocent wife as she stood in her doorway holding her baby. Or their son, as he was trying desperately to save his dog and run away from the shooters to the safety of his home, and they killed both the child and the dog, shooting the boy in the back as he ran to safety.

If they are killing the poor tortoises; it is not because they are caring about them; but because 
they have found a better way to make money from that facility and the land around it.



HappyFlowerLady


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 11, 2014)

The more I hear about this, the more I feel that Bundy is the problem here, having too many cattle on the land, not paying his grazing fees to the BLM, which other ranchers were happy to do, etc.  It is not his land, so if he doesn't abide by the laws in regards to its use, then he is the cause of the problem.  Can't believe this has been going on for so long, many other ranchers do not support his 'fight'.  Here's just one persons opinion, and some comments that follow...http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/ar...tality-costs-him-grazing-rights/#.U0iwKzjjios


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 11, 2014)

Actually, the more i read about this, the more the whole thing resembles a pile of snakes. It is not just an issue of a rancher and the government, it is several issues, all twisted together, and from what i can see; it is not being handled properly by either side.

1. Bundy is supposed to be paying for his cattle grazing on the land, and he refuses; therefore, he should have either paid the grazing fee, or removed the cattle. It doesn't matter that his grandfather grazed cows there free. (That is kind of like getting a parking ticket for not putting a quarter in the meter; it doesn't matter if your grandfather used to tie his horse to the hitching rail for free. That was then, and this is now.

2. The cattle are hurting the life of the desert tortoise. If this is true, then that land should not be open to cattle grazing to ANY rancher, if it is a sanctuary, then it should have not been allowed to be used by paying a grazing fee.

3. Apparently the land is to be leased to a large Chinese solar company. The cattle are standing in the way of a much larger income than the BLM gets from grazing cows; so this is possibly a reason for the sudden escalation in removal tactics.

4. There has been oil exploration nearby, so this is also a possibility of a large income from the area; and adds to the possible government removal of the cows.

All together, there are several things all going on at once, and probably several hidden agendas, maybe even more than we have seen thus far.
If 5,000 armed paramilitary come into the area, set to defend Bundys (supposed) rights; I think it is about a 99% chance that someone is going to start shooting, and then we will have a really bad situation, with a good possibility of many people being killed.   This would possibly even cause the US to go under martial law if it gets out of hand, and spreads to other states.

Other than the government just walking away, or Bundy giving in, and paying the fine, I just don't see a peaceful ending to this.


HappyFlowerLady


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2014)

> Apparently the land is to be leased to a large Chinese solar company. The cattle are standing in the way of a much larger income than the BLM gets from grazing cows; so this is possibly a reason for the sudden escalation in removal tactics.


 How sure are you about this statement ? It is, after all, a national park.
 Don't you think there would be an almighty stink if a government leased a national park to a foreign government? Newspaper headlines and public petitions at the very least. 

 The geology of Nevada, if the graphic referred to earlier is anything to go by, indicates many possibilities for oil extraction. What makes the land on which Bundy is grazing for free is so vital? But that is a side issue. 

 It might be more enlightening to look into Bundy's history to see why the BLM personnel are treating him as potentially very dangerous.


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## Ina (Apr 11, 2014)

HFL, I fear you are right on all accounts.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 12, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> How sure are you about this statement ? It is, after all, a national park.
> Don't you think there would be an almighty stink if a government leased a national park to a foreign government? Newspaper headlines and public petitions at the very least.
> 
> The geology of Nevada, if the graphic referred to earlier is anything to go by, indicates many possibilities for oil extraction. What makes the land on which Bundy is grazing for free is so vital? But that is a side issue.
> ...



Warri, here is an article from 2012 about the Chinese solar plant proposed for Nevada . It was being negotiated by the son of Harry Reid, and his son says that the father is not involved, but later articles say that he is part of it.
As for there being protests about this happening..... probably not. 
Two reasons: 
First, people just don't really care now days. (the dumbing down of Americans) They only notice what affects them directly. 
Second, our news media are paid(off) to only present news they want us to hear, generally about some celebrity or other, rather than something that is actually important to us. 
For instance, this morning, aside from saying that the government has declared the area around Bundy's ranch a no-fly zone (meaning there will be no aerial coverage of events there), we have seen NO coverage of what is happening there.  Right now, they are covering the waning popularity of Seaworld .(sigh...)

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...se-Solar-Panel-Plant-In-5-Billion-Nevada-Deal



HappyFlowerLady


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## Warrigal (Apr 12, 2014)

Dammit, I had a detailed response prepared but I lost it.

Here goes again.

I know nothing first hand about this situation but I'm wary of taking everything at face value.

First Cliven Bundy - he has been fighting  the Federal Government for years and has been using the media to promote his position.
He has also threatened violence from his family and from militias. He claims to obey all Nevada laws but no federal laws. It sounds like he is a successionist.

Details here: http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/10/right-wing-media-are-throwing-gas-on-a-ranchers/198841

Concerning the Chinese energy project. Is it in Clark  County?
 The only reference to its location I have found is this 


> The Langfang, China-based ENN Energy Group hopes to build what would be the largest solar energy complex in America. The site chosen with Rory Reid's guidance is in tiny Laughlin, Nevada, a gambling town of 7,300 along the Colorado River, 90 miles south of Las Vegas.
> 
> County officials have said that they were so thrilled to recruit a company to the area, with the prospect of thousands of new local jobs, that they were eager to negotiate.
> From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831


Is this a national park? Does it have anything to do with the place where Bundy is grazing his cattle illegally?


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 12, 2014)

More map research.  As far as I can see, the solar plant is a long ways away from the Bundy cattle; so I think that is another non-issue, just like the tortoise. 
Laughlin is 90 miles south of Las Vegas, and along the Arizona border. Bundy ranch is near Bunkerville, which is way north of LV, and near the Utah border.  So, no relevance that I can see.
As far as Bundy being a secessionist, I haven't seen that part (at least yet), just that he believes Nevada law supercedes the federal law at this point. 

The latest information that I can find is good news. There is a possible negotiation by Sheriff Gillespie, which would settle the issue, and everyone can go home, and no bloodshed happening. The pictures show the protesters pretty much harassing the LE at the scene, but not real agression from the BLM , just trying to keep people from violence in the protests. 
At this point, it would seems that the LEO on scene are doing a good job, and not provoking anything; so I am hoping for a peaceful ending to this now.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230...le-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm



HappyFlowerLady


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## That Guy (Apr 12, 2014)

The latest news from Las Vegas.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230368/major-development-in-bunkerville-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm


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## Warrigal (Apr 12, 2014)

Glad to see restraint on the part of the BLM but I think they have lost the battle. Their costs have probably exceeded the amount of money owed by Bundy and the sale of 352 out of 500 animals won't cover his unpaid fees, much less the costs of security. After two court orders against him it will be interesting to see whether he now removes the rest of his herd or takes out a valid lease.

I'm guessing he does neither but I reckon that he will be loud and strong on any TV show that will have him.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25228744/blm-state-director-speaks-out-about-bundy-dispute


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## Davey Jones (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm guessing he does neither but I reckon that he will be loud and strong on any TV show that will have him.


You can be sure Liberman will get him on the show.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 15, 2014)

I think that you only get a part of what is going on over here, Warri, and so you see things in a different light than most us here in America see them. 

We have Mexicans sneaking into our country in droves, disrespecting our flag, our country, and our customs, and our government doesn't care. In fact, they now get the same welfare benefits as those of us who are American citizens, and have lived and worked here, and the soldiers who have gone above and beyond, to serve our country. While illegal aliens receive benefits they should never get; our soldiers and veterans have been getting their (hard-earned) benefits cut. 
The government allows the illegal aliens to do whatever they please; but wants to fine the American rancher who is growing beef to feed us, that makes sense ???

We have people like Al Sharpton who everyone knows that he owes well over $1,000,000 in taxes; yet he is entertained and welcomed by our president; but we have a hard-working rancher who owes grazing fees; and the whole military is sent out to get him....no way ! ! 

America used to be considered a Christian nation, and was founded on Christian principles. Our colleges all started as Christian colleges. Now, any kind of non-Christian monument is allowed anywhere, but Christian children are not even supposed to pray over their school lunches anymore.

This is just an example of what is happening here in America. Even though Mr. Bundy needs to make changes as far as paying the grazing fee (he was apparently paying it to the State of Nevada) , we still get upset that the government won't even try to protect our borders from illegal aliens, but they go all out to stop illegal cows.


HappyFlowerLady


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## Warrigal (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm aware of those issues, HFL, because I pay attention to overseas news as well as the local.
You do seem to be using somewhat exaggerated language which is what I tend to react to.

Examples - 





> Mexicans sneaking into our country in droves, disrespecting our flag, our country, and our customs, and our government doesn't care.


I think most of them are just looking for work. I haven't seen any evidence of mass disrespect for the flag at least, nothing like the disrespect that occurred during the protests against the Vietnam war. What American customs do they disrespect?


> While illegal aliens receive benefits they should never get; our soldiers and veterans have been getting their (hard-earned) benefits cut.


As I understand it, there is some recognition of Mexicans who have lived in the US for many years, working and raising children. Their children are now being recognised as permanent residents but not necessarily as citizens. Correct me if I am wrong. What benefits are being cut for soldiers and veterans, and why?

I apologise for being a PIA and for having a somewhat forensic approach to posts. I don't just do it on American forums. I look behind lots of statements on Australian forums as well and often find that they are either untrue rumours (we call them furphies) or exaggerations. A lot of them are promoted by radio shock jocks who do it to boost their ratings. Feel free to tell me I'm a PIA. I won't be offended. I won't change either. Who was it that said "Here I stand, I can do no other"?


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 15, 2014)

You are just proving my very point. You only see part of the news about what is happening over here, and I believe that you probably pay closer attention than most people who live overseas, and you obviously understand what you do see.

I do not have the pictures to post that show you what I am asserting; but they ARE on the internet if you choose to look for documentation. 
About the Mexicans, I am not talking about the ones who have been here for years, and have legal children here. I am talking about the ones that sneak in.  These are the ones that end up like that poor bunch who were found barricaded in the house in Houston Tx a few weeks back.  They come in illegally, and most of them can barely speak English. They buy a stolen identity or get one from someone who is here with a green card, and then they find cash jobs or girlfriends so they can live. They burn our flag, and put up the Mexico flag.  

Earlier immigrants to America came here legally, learned the language and the history, served in the military, and truly WANTED to become American citizens. These new people don't want that.  They use this country to work and send money back to Mexico, and they are militant against the very country that feeds them.
As for the veterans, the government just made another cut to their benefits, and they are also talking about closing the commissaries where our military and veterans are allowed to save a bit of money shopping. 

I am not against immigrants here. I just want it to be done legally, and not to the detriment of the American people, and especially not to the detriment of our military veterans ! 
It also upsets me that I, and many other seniors, (who have lived here and worked hard all our lives for these benefits) live on below poverty level incomes, and have our assistance cut, or prices for it raised; while people who have come here illegally are allowed to sign up and receive these benefits with no right to them at all.
And no, I do not see you as a "PIA", as you call it, Warri. I see you as a caring person, who searches everything out , looking for the truth. As do I .
But sometimes, we are like the old story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant, each from the part they are touching. Many different descriptions from the different observation points; but not necessarily wrong; just incomplete.


HappyFlowerLady


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## Ina (Apr 15, 2014)

HFL, I  agree, I can't get health benefits, or any kind of benefits. But as Michael points out, you can go stand in in the welfare line, and look around, and most of the people are wearing more jewelry than we ever were able to afford. Their cars are expensive and no more than two or three years old, and I can't even dream of spending the money they spend on the most fashionable wardrobes they seem to need. 
We see this in all the nationalities, except Caucasians.
Those factors seem to mean nothing, let alone the fact that most of them are illegals.
But, I guess fighting those issues, won't get you elected. :what1:


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## Warrigal (Apr 15, 2014)

> I am talking about the ones that sneak in.  These are the ones that end up like that poor bunch who were found barricaded in the house in Houston Tx a few weeks back.  They come in illegally, and most of them can barely speak English. They buy a stolen identity or get one from someone who is here with a green card, and then they find cash jobs or girlfriends so they can live. They burn our flag, and put up the Mexico flag.


You see that, this is what doesn't make any sense to me. Why would illegal immigrants draw attention to themselves by burning the American flag and hoisting the Mexican one ? I would be trying to keep a low profile.

Is this the incident in Houston that you were referring to?

http://www.khou.com/home/Police-Men-barricade-patrons-inside-bar-set-building-ablaze-149286595.html


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 15, 2014)

The incident i am talking about in Houston, might have been the wrong Texas town. It was in one of our topics a few weeks back, and I think Ina posted about it. The illegals had paid the "coyotes" (or whatever they are called) to smuggle them into America; but then they locked them in some dumpy house and tried to get ransom money from their relatives. I will look for the article for you, if you don't remember discussing it earlier. Someone reported it to the police, and they found these half-starved illegals locked in the house, about stacked on top of each other, there were so many of them.
http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/03/2...al-immigrants-found-cramped-texas-stash-house

Warrigal, what you are saying is what should be happening with the flag-burners.  But these people have come here, and they know we are not doing anything to stop them; so they are brazen in their anti-american activities. Their idea is that the southern states should belong to Mexico, and they want to take those states, plus more, back for Mexico.
Here is just one quick video of what is going on all over in the US, and especially in the states bordering Mexico.   Watch this, and then tell me that these are just "peaceful immigrants who want a better life and a job" .

http://youtu.be/BBtSdwRqLbc



HappyFlowerLady


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## RCynic (Apr 17, 2014)

I've been trying to stay informed about this and this is the best discussion I've seen I think, although an interview with Sheriff Mack brought up some good points. Anyway, here's the video I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xEO3uYsyI


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 17, 2014)

I never followed this story, but it seems to be all over the media and I've heard some reports from both sides.  Here's just one example of the other side of the story...



> Cliven Bundy has no claim to federal land or grazing
> ...http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/
> 
> He has no “right” to graze it.
> ...


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## Ina (Apr 17, 2014)

Sea, I think most people do not want to see the "little" guy be wrong. We want it to be the big bad government's fault. We are quick to blame "the government" before we check out the facts. :hide:


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm always open to getting the facts Ina, and chances are we don't have all of them yet anyway.  I don't love the government either, but you have to look at the facts realistically before taking sides.  I hear good and bad about this character, I think he should probably just pay what is owed and be done with it, like all the other ranchers in the area do.  It seems like he hates the federal government and won't give them any acknowledgement or consideration whatsoever, but he does want his cattle to graze on their land, and for free no less, doesn't make sense really.  He feels he's special and entitled?  Who knows, maybe it's just me, maybe I'm not getting something, lol.


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## Ina (Apr 17, 2014)

No Sea, I think you are getting it. There are people who think their personal and family history grant them the entitlement you speak of. They believe the entitlement is their right by heredity. Go figure!!  :what1:


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 17, 2014)

It looks like there are all kinds of accusations flying around on this issue. One of the things that is being said that really ruffles my feathers is Senator Harry Reid saying that the people who supported rancher Bundy are basically  terrorists. Todd Starnes, from Fox News was reporting this, so I think it is valid.
Here is a quote from one of the Bundy neighbors about the whole situation, and this puts an interesting light on what is behind all this, too:


There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc.

The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non-ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 17, 2014)

It seems that the Bureau of Land Management had the right to change the terms of the contract...



> "Congress enacted the FLPMA, which instructs the Secretary of the Interior to manage through the BLM the public lands under the principles of multiple use and sustained yield.
> 43 U.S.C. § 1732(a)
> 
> "Multiple use"requires managing the public lands and their resources so that they "best meet the present and future needs of the American people," and taking into account the long-term needs of future generations for renewable and nonrenewable resources, including recreation, timber,wildlife and fish and scientific values.
> ...


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## Warrigal (Apr 18, 2014)

Just a couple of  questions.
Assuming a rancher has the right to overgraze and destroy his own pastures, does he also have the right to overgraze land that he does not own? If he does not own the land, should he not be willing to pay some kind of recompense to the owner/custodian of the land and agree to the conditions laid down by the owner?

If (all) the people own the land, should the rancher not pay a fair rent to (all) the people for using the land? How else can this be done except by paying the appointed agent of (all) the people, which must of necessity be an agency of government?

Or should the national parks be opened to whoever wants to profit from them, rent free, and let whoever wins the range war be the one who decides who shall have access and who shall be excluded?

IMO, in any civilised country rule of law is essential to overall good order. Ultimately that means that law enforcement is also essential.
There will always be mavericks who try to beat the system. When their case is strong we label them heroes but when they are just self serving individuals with no regard to their responsibilities as citizens they are merely criminal dissidents.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 18, 2014)

No Warri, he doesn't have the right to overgraze on land that he doesn't own, and he must pay grazing fees for his cattle on that land like everyone else does.  We've enjoyed the use of national forest lands and BLM lands over the years when we were camping.  The national parks are absolutely beautiful, and one must pay a fee to enter them and another to camp overnight.  I agree that there must be laws to protect and maintain these lands, and we should all abide by them for our own benefit and that of the country.  Well said about the mavericks.


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