# Started Cenegenics- my observations- if you are interested



## Newly Old

I have read posts/debates/arguments about Cenegenics.  Since I recently started the program, I thought some might be interested in my experiences so far.

Let me give you some background and disclaimers.  My only interest is to share my honest thoughts.  I am not going to tell you what state I live in.  I would get a nice cash discount for any people I would send, so I want to get that out of the way. I will not have any private communications so that there is no chance I could benefit if you decided to try it. 

Another disclaimer.  A close relative is a Cenegenics doctor.  But he would only benefit if you used him and I will not give any information about who or where he is.  But, an important detail is that I am also a physician, and had been skeptical about age management doctors and "factories."  At a family gathering  he told me about joining Cenegenics.  I was intrigued because I have known him to be an excellent doctor trained at a top institution, etc, etc, and extremely ethical.   He explained that he had studied the field for many years, and investigating, found that there was solid science behind the Cenegenics program.

I did not look into at the time because I choked at the cost.  Seemed outrageous to me. 

Jump ahead a year and a half.  I am a very busy physician in a field that requires seeing many many patients a day.  I also work for supplemental income 2 nights a week and Sundays. (College tuition is expensive.).  I have been fortunate to have excellent health and energy.  I am going to be 65 and when peers commented on my level of energy and enthusiasm,  I reflected on how important it is.  but then I began thinking.  My income depends on my ability to sustain this level of energy and strength.  I have not felt any decrease, but at my age, I realize that there will be a point where my age will start to catch up- where I will slow down.  I don't think I will like that experience, but more importantly, my income will fall if my ability to work at this high level deteriorates.

So,  I came to the conclusion (ok, rationalization) that spending this large amount on Cenegenics made sense if it worked.

I started a month and a half ago.  I will stop my rambling and wait to see if people are interested in my experience so far.

I have seen where previous discussions about Cenegenics have deteriorated into debates, personal insults, etc.

I will be happy to share my experiences for those who are curious.

Newly Old


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## SifuPhil

Hi, Newly - welcome to the forum!

Thanks for posting what should be an interesting and inside-look at Cenegenics. It would be a bonus for all of us here to follow your progress on the program and see both the ups and (hopefully few) downs as you get some "time in". 

It's a shame that you feel you have to keep up such a high level of working just to stay in place. I was in the martial arts teaching field for over 35 years and I had the same forebodings - that some day I wouldn't be able to keep up the energy levels, and there would go my income. Luckily I chose a niche that allowed for practice well into the 80's and 90's (Taijiquan / Qigong), but when it comes to sparring and other high-intensity activities you still have to wonder what will happen tomorrow.

As well, I maintain a minimalist lifestyle so at least I don't have a high overhead - I'm not "high maintenance".  So my secondary-career income as a writer and consultant sees me through, and I no longer have to worry about age interfering with my fighting abilities.

Good thing, too - as you mentioned, the Cenegenics program prices are a _bit_ steep for someone like me, and all I could hope to do would be to copy the non-prescription side of the program (which is basically what I have been doing anyway for many years).

Thanks again for the post and hope to hear more in the future.


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## Newly Old

Actually, I love my work.  But if the hours tired me out, that would be a different story.  That's where Cenegenics comes in.  I am in week 5 and have surprisingly good things to report, but there are some negatives I never would have expected.I will elaborate tonight or tomorrow.

I am in my second month and have a lot to say.

Newly Old


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## Newly Old

Let me give you a brief overview of the Cenegenics program and my first 6 weeks.  Cenegenics is a complete program of nutrition, exercise, body optimization including hormone optomization.  Before enrolling, I was told that I should only do it if I plan to do the whole Cenegenics lifestyle.  People think that it is testosterone shots.  While testosterone shots are used if someone has a lab proven testosterone deficiency with symptoms, that is a small part of it.

Testosterone shots do make a big difference.  At my insistence, my internist tested my level.  I was low, which is very common for my age.  By the third day, I felt great.  Think of the part of the morning where you feel you are at your peak alertness, energy level, motivation, etc.   That is how I felt from the time I got up until an hour or two before bed.  I took a very brisk 30 min walk after dinner because I felt like it. It felt great.  I then decided that I would be willing to sacfrifice to any level to be able to feel this great everyday. But it to my surprise, 4 days after the injection, I felt it wearing off.  By day 6 and 7, I was pushing myself again.   I contacted my Cenegenics MD who sent me articles on timing and duration of testosterone shots.  It takes 6-8 weeks for the blood levels to reach a steady state.  In other words, the first several weekly shots give a peak of testosterone around 3 days later which wears off over the next few days.  After 6-8 weeks, the shots will not give peaks, but will keep the level constant at the level it had reached with the individual shot.

He also sent me a chart of what changes occur at what interval.  For example, muscle strength may start improving at X weeks and reach maximum effect after X months.  One of the items is strength of orgasms.  Most men look forward to that.  I was told that they become "impressive."

More to follow if I find people want me to continue/

Newly Old


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## SifuPhil

Impressive!

What I don't quite understand is your statement that hormone therapy is a "small part" of the program, when it is commonly stated fact that testosterone levels decrease for every male over time. I get the need for testing those levels, but nothing else in the program - not nutrition, not exercise, not meditation - is going to make such rapid and quantitative improvements as hormone supplementation.

It's the magic bullet, the Gateway to Youth, that I would think is the prime sales tool of the organization. Most of the other factors addressed in the program could be followed by an individual without such an extensive support system. 

That all being said, I'm surprised at the fluctuations in energy levels of the hormone shots - I wasn't aware that they would level out over time. Thanks for that info.


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## Newly Old

If a older person with low testosterone gets replacement injections and does nothing else, there can be dramatic improvements.  If that is all that I wanted, I could have seen an endocrinologist and had my testing and shots covered by my health insurance.   Why didn't I do that and join a gym and go on a diet without all the support?

i am 64.  I have been on too many diets to count.  I am still overweight.  I have had many gym memberships over the years.  In the past 40 years, I have owned at various times treadmills, stationary bikes, rowers,  a Nordic Track, a Schwinn Airdyne, etc.  But I have never been able to sustain any exercise program.

So for me, this is a last attempt to change to a healthy lifestyle and yes, I do need this extensive a support team.  Will it work this time?  The relative who is a Cenegenics doctor has told me how surprised he has been at the lack of drop outs of his patients.  Most are overweight out of shape wealthier businessmen, doctors and professionals.  In his opinion, his patients have tried and failed all other attempts during their life, and also see this as there one last chance to become healthy or slowly deteriorate to old age in a wheelchair.

I am happy to report on my success or failure, and experiences on the way should people want.

As to the peaks of testosterone shots, I thought weekly shots avoided the ups and downs.  I was surprised and alarmed at the fact that I had a couple of great days (in some ways incredible days) followed by a drop until my next shot a few days later.  When I reviewed the information and studies on testosterone shots sent to me by my doctor, I learned that it takes, if I remember correctly, 7 half lives to reach a steady state.  There are disagreements in the literature as to the ideal amount of days between shots.

My frustration is that I thought I should have been given the details about the peaks and valleys and time to the steady state at the onset.

At 5 weeks, I am feeling the positive effects for many more days before they decrease a day or two before my next shot.  By next month the effect should be sustained throughout the week.  That being said, many of the effects of testosterone take weeks or months to start being noticeable, and some don't reach maximum effect until close to a year.

Giving myself the shot has become easy.  I barely could bring myself to do the first one, but as soon as I inserted the needle, I saw that it was painless.  Their T cipionate is in a much less viscous vehicle than that of others, so it can go through a much smaller needle.

They are sending the phlebotomist to me in a couple of days to see how my blood parameters have changed.  Many things are checked because testosterone shots can cause many problems.  My doctor is paying close attention to my hematocrit, because T can cause polycythemia, and my normal hematocrit is upper normal.

The diet and exercise are going well, but it is a pain to take all the different supplements and vitamins they have prescribed.

Newly Old


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## SeaBreeze

What type of additional supplements are they prescribing for you, things like B vitamins (complex and B-12), amino acids, vitamin D3, etc?  Are you using any herbs at all, or green foods like chlorella?  What about the typical male supplements like Saw Palmetto, Beta Sitosterol, Pygeum, etc?


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## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> If a older person with low testosterone gets replacement injections and does nothing else, there can be dramatic improvements.  If that is all that I wanted, I could have seen an endocrinologist and had my testing and shots covered by my health insurance.   Why didn't I do that and join a gym and go on a diet without all the support?
> 
> i am 64.  I have been on too many diets to count.  I am still overweight.  I have had many gym memberships over the years.  In the past 40 years, I have owned at various times treadmills, stationary bikes, rowers,  a Nordic Track, a Schwinn Airdyne, etc.  But I have never been able to sustain any exercise program.
> 
> So for me, this is a last attempt to change to a healthy lifestyle and yes, I do need this extensive a support team.  Will it work this time?  The relative who is a Cenegenics doctor has told me how surprised he has been at the lack of drop outs of his patients.  Most are overweight out of shape wealthier businessmen, doctors and professionals.  In his opinion, his patients have tried and failed all other attempts during their life, and also see this as there one last chance to become healthy or slowly deteriorate to old age in a wheelchair.



Okay, point taken. I have a bad habit of assuming that most people are as obsessed with exercise and diet as I am, so it makes sense that a large percentage of _normal_ folk would need a support structure in place to stick with the program. I'm just really curious as to what type of motivational tools are employed by Cenegenics to ensure 100% compliance with the prescribed diet and exercises.





> As to the peaks of testosterone shots, I thought weekly shots avoided the ups and downs.  I was surprised and alarmed at the fact that I had a couple of great days (in some ways incredible days) followed by a drop until my next shot a few days later.  When I reviewed the information and studies on testosterone shots sent to me by my doctor, I learned that it takes, if I remember correctly, 7 half lives to reach a steady state.  There are disagreements in the literature as to the ideal amount of days between shots.
> 
> My frustration is that I thought I should have been given the details about the peaks and valleys and time to the steady state at the onset.
> 
> At 5 weeks, I am feeling the positive effects for many more days before they decrease a day or two before my next shot.  By next month the effect should be sustained throughout the week.  That being said, many of the effects of testosterone take weeks or months to start being noticeable, and some don't reach maximum effect until close to a year.



I probably have more questions about the HRT segment of the program than anything else. I was never a "muscle monkey" - I never sought to bulk up or become a competitive bodybuilder, and the use of HRT in aging is to me a relatively new phenomenon. As such, I've done only a limited amount of research into it, but one of the things I discovered was that the half-life of T. Cypionate is 12 days. So you'll perhaps understand why I'm a bit puzzled as to your reaction to the injections. Are they extremely low-dosage? Most HRT patients I've read about have been on 200mg per week. 

I also wonder what the cycle of usage is: 8-16 weeks seems to be the standard as far as I can ascertain. Has there been any discussion about post-cycle therapy? 




> They are sending the phlebotomist to me in a couple of days to see how my blood parameters have changed.  Many things are checked because testosterone shots can cause many problems.  My doctor is paying close attention to my hematocrit, because T can cause polycythemia, and my normal hematocrit is upper normal.



I've seen the list of side-effects of T. Cypionate and although not numerous or particularly dangerous they_ are_ a bit daunting - water retention, gynecomastia, cholesterol problems and blood pressure problems. The worst of the lot appears to be testicular atrophy, which hopefully will be reversed once the therapy is ended. 

​ 


> The diet and exercise are going well, but it is a pain to take all the different supplements and vitamins they have prescribed.



Diet - I've always had a problem with "diets" - to me they seem to be an artificial construct, a Band-Aid for temporary use only. Certainly they are no replacement for lifestyle alteration, but also of a certainty they are ideally suited for our present society's mindset of "get it done now without a lot of effort". Are they using a brand-name diet - Mediterranean, Paleo, Atkins, Zone? Or are they crafting a custom one based upon your specific needs?

Exercise - a blend of stretching, body-weight, aerobic and machine workouts? In-home or at the gym? Solitary or group? 

Sorry for all the questions but I'd really like to understand this program and it's nice to find someone actually participating in it.


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## Newly Old

In my medical field, I have patients who need tesposterone because their testes did not develop due to genetic problems. (Klinefelter's). The "standard" treatment for many is testosterone enanthate 200 mg every 4 weeks.  This is to have thier levels in the normal range.  (Some endocrinologist use more frequent lower doses to lessen peaks and valleys, but my patients have preferred monthly).

My Cenegenics doctor says that my dose of 50mg every 7 days to start will be adjusted according to my blood levels of free testosterone.  The goal is for me to be in the middle of the normal range, possibly to the 75%ile.  He thinks 50-100 mg will end up being the right dose.  When I am in the normal range, I stay at that dose.  There are no cylcles, just as someone who is hypothyroid (low thyroid hormone) is kept on daily synthroid, not cylces on and off.

From what I have seen on bodybuilding forums, testosterone is used for muscle building by giving high levels of testosterone.  That is not what is being done for me.  I am low, and I am being treated to get my levels normal and keep them normal.  I assume that if I age has diminished my ability to product testosterone, it will always be insufficient.  I mention this in contrast to growth hormone, which can be low as we age, and which has been shown in medical studies to reverse muscle and bone loss of aging, increase strength, etc.  While Cenegenics test for growth hormone, and its physicians are trained in its use, they told me that most patients they diagnose with low GH will have their levels become normal after several months on T, supplements, diet and exercise, so that it is a rare patient who will need GH replacement.

I think there is a misconception that Cenegenics is a testosterone clinic.  Low tesosterone is a common condition in aging and treatment can have dramatic results.  But that is treating those with lab proven deficiency and only to replace T to normal levels. 

As for side effects, a common one which my doctor seems most cautious about is polycythemia, and abnormally high blood count.  This is not unusual and can lead to strokes, etc.  He has me on one baby aspirin a day.  If my hematocrit does go too high, I will need to reduce my blood, which can be done simply by donating at regular intervals.  The other side effects I am not too familiar with, but other hormone levels can become abnormal with  testosterone treatments.  Those hormones are part of my monitoring. 

I am going to use a new reply to discuss diet and their motivational methods to keep things neater.    Newly Old


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## Newly Old

Before I move on to my diet, I have often reflected on a debeted issue about testosterone.  Some argue that testosterone goes down as a part of normal aging, so it should not be "treated."  Some counter that the lower testosterone CAUSES a lot of the deterioration of aging and this deterioration should not be accepted as normal.  This raises the question of whether man is supposed to continue to stay at good functional levels until death, or is a slow deterioration to a rocking chair how the latter part of life should be?  I am not going to jump into that debate!

Now to my Cenegenics nutrition program. I first had to complete and extensive questionnaire about my eating habits, food likes and dislikes, whether I would be accepting of certain foods as protein sources ( I think that is what was asked, etc).  When we met, Cenegenics principals were presented- it was a lot, but they also gave me summaries to take home.  My one question-  can I do this without eating fish.  I hate fish.  Fortunately, the answer is yes, although I am sure fish is a large part of the diet plans for most patients.

I did not focus on the principles of the diet, although I will say what I remember.  My feeling was, "OK, I accept the concept that you have an excellent plan based on solid science.  Just tell me what to eat." I don't need to know the micro-details.

But if I understand everything, it makes sense.  My overview.  One goal is to eliminate carbohydrate and insulin peaks. They are associated with many health problems.  Also, they lead to periods of fatigue and to hunger.  I understood the concept of glycemic index regarding how the body reacts with insulin.  I never learned about the importance of the rate of absorption and rate of blood sugar and insulin rise.  (If you eat a carb, also eat a protein or a fat to slow the absorption of the carb-   an apple with peanut butter on celery,  eat almonds when you eat dried apricots.)  I have to eat 5 times a day.  Another aspect is that certain foods have been found to decrease inflammation.  Inflammation is associated with a latrge number of bad diseases.  They also advise organic, cage free, etc. There are many more aspects and recommendations.  There are lists of "eat lots of these" and "eat little of these"

For the first 6 weeks, I am on a stricter induction diet to convert my metabolism to a low carb, better whatever it is type of diet.  I was also told it would be best to stay with the same meals.  Boredom would result in less interest in eating a lot.  Then we put together my induction diet.  For breakfast, I have a 6 egg omelet, but with only 1 yolk, onions, broccolli, mushrooms, a little cheddar cheese.  Sometimes I include turkey sausage pieces.  VERY filling.  Mid morning I have a fistfull of almonds (I am not used to eating mid morning but it is to provide fat).  Lunch is a grilled chicken breast sandwhich with lettuce, tomato, olive oil based Mayo on Ezekial toast.  (after induction, I can have if on a whole grain bread, but that will be my day's carb allotment).  I love that sandwhich.  Mid afternoon is a smoothie made with almond milk, one scoop unsweetened natural flavor whey protein, 6 strawberries and a handfull of almonds.-  oops.  I forgot to have my smoothie this afternoon.  Wasn't hungry but I am required to have it, so I will pause a moment to get it....That's better.  For dinner, I either have a huge spinach salad with diced grilled chicken, onions, broccoli, mushrooms, tomatoes and croutons  (just joking about the croutons!).  Some nights I prefer a grilled chicken breast smothered in sauteed mushrooms, slightly steamed broccoli with olive oil and garlic.  One of my kids likes another chicken dish- grilled chicken topped with tiny broccolli florets and toped with melted mozzarella. (not much, though). And at least 8  8oz bottles of Poland Springs.  Some dinners will include a side salad if I am out of broccolli.

I am on many supplements. I don't necessarily believe in them all, but I am throwing myself in 100%.  They give the reasoning behind each, but I only remember a few.  I take fish oil capsules, DHEA, Vit D-3, baby aspirin, Cialis for prostate health, melatonin because sleep is important for growth hormone. (I know that GH is release mostly during sleep.  I don't know if it has been shoen that melatonin results in better sleep/GH release in someone who has no trouble sleeping).  And there are a couple more.  One is a big white capsule.  Not much help, but as I said, I am somewhat blindingly accepting the supplement regimen.

I can definitely say that I have no energy slumps or periods of fatigue.  I have no desire for sweets.  I was eating at least 2 packages of candy a day.  And my weight has been dropping nicely.

Next, I will move to their methods of motivationg me.

Newly Old


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## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> ... I think there is a misconception that Cenegenics is a testosterone clinic.  Low tesosterone is a common condition in aging and treatment can have dramatic results.  But that is treating those with lab proven deficiency and only to replace T to normal levels ...



Thanks again for going into such detail - it's appreciated.

I just have reservations about the entire philosophy behind this aspect of the program - indeed, of any program that offers HRT. You say that the aim is to replace T to normal levels, but aren't "normal" levels constantly declining as we age? That would mean that bringing the levels UP is in violation of that natural decline. 

I understand if your levels are low to begin with, but what is "normal" for an aging male? Isn't it to see _declining_ levels? This is where I seem to get confused with their stated goal of "age management" and _not_ "youth prolongation".

*ETA:* Sorry - I just saw that you addressed my points in your second post.


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## SifuPhil

The diet sounds delicious! I have to admit I was surprised at your daily menu - I thought perhaps they'd have you exclusively eating from the USDA's recommendations or that they would be pushing their own branded diet food, but I see you're basically following Dr. Willix's Food Diamond - congrats! 

As for the supplements - no surprises there. As a physician I'm a bit surprised that you are "blindly" accepting their recommendations, but I suppose if you want to test the effectiveness of any regimen you have to subscribe to it wholeheartedly - just not _unquestioningly_.


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## Newly Old

I don't know if I made something clear.  My Cenegenics physician is the family relative whose medical expertise and academic dedication I trust.  And I am taking somewhat of the attitude that I failed miserably at diet and exercise despite all that I know as a physician.  I think I provide excellent care to my patients.  But, that does not spill over to making rational choices for myself.  I knew that I should not have eaten the bottle of Marsmallow Fluff, but ...

I think my approach is not unreasonable.  I have a person who I trust to have done the legwork in studying the science behind Cenegenics.

OK.  let's tackle the issue of what it means to bring T levels to "normal."  It makes for a very interesting discussion, and I probably should be starting a thread on this.  As a matter of fact, I think it would bring in a lot of opinions, so I Will do so.  Give me a a little time to start it.  But a tidbit that came to mind for you to reflect on (maybe too far out there for this discussion).  If my body will naturally age and hormones, etc decline,mid that what is "supposed " to happen, should we be altering it?  Osteoporosis is a normal part of aging.  Is its role to stop us from doing the physical activity of youth?  Are they aches pains and fatigue also nature's way of making us slow down because that is how mankind is designed?  Are we supposed to be slowing down so that we gradually turn over the world to the younger?  Have we been upsetting the balance by finding ways to have people love longer?  

DO NOT TAKE THESE STATEMENTS TO REPRESENT MY BELIEFS!  I am just pushing the discussion to an extreme point.

I changed my mind.  Let me continue with this thread for a moment.  I am enjoying your insights and want to stay on track.  

The he testosterone blood normal ranges that my internist did are considered reference lab normals for adults.  I do not know if it is broken down more precisely.  My familiarity with testosterone is in children, adolescence and young adults.  Normals are different for pre pubertal, each of the 5 stages of puberty and the adults.  I am sure 2 different 70 year olds could have 2 different T levels and their physiologic and functional status could parallel that.  Is the one with higher T, better BMI, muscle strength, etc normal and the other one in need of treatment or do we say each is appropriate and that there is no norm for 70 year olds physical and physiological state?

Let me jump to a recent Endocrine Society paper on the use of T supplements. It says essentially that if a person has low T on blood testing, and it is confirmed on a repeat,  AND if there are symptoms of low T, then it is reasonable to try giving T to see if symptoms are reversed.  That's my interpretation of a much more detailed explanation.   That does not answer if the low T and symptoms are normal for aging.

There is the standard question, which you allude to and I cannot answer.  If low T and the resulting diminished physiological and physical functions are "normal" with age, should they be treated solely because it makes people feel better, stronger, more active, happy and makes their lives "better?"

One point of view is that we get old and our bodies deteriorate.  That is normal and we should accept that.  Another is that deterioration is NOT normal, and that if we can slow or reverse that, we should.  If living to 100 is common in some families, does that mean that humans are really designed to be capable of that and do deteriorate younger is abnormal?  If people lose hearing with age, should we try to prevent it or accept it as normal.

Next stretch of logic.  In some, the heart ages and gives way faster than the other organ systems.  In others, they will suffer or die because their kidneys deteriorate before the rest of the body.  In some, the body functions well until death at 100. , but the brain deteriorated to poorly functional after age 95.

Perhaps, in some, the testes start to deteriorate earlier resulting in  low t causing all of the symptoms that are deteriorating the quality of life.

For me, if it is safely done and monitored, I want to have all parts of my body functioning as well possible.  It has me feeling great and is safe with appropriate monitoring.  I can rationalize taking T because my T level is low, so that raising it to a level which is "normal" should do no harm.  As an added effect, it gives me the energy and strength to exercise, which I think all will say is important to health.  So, I do not see a reason not to do it except for cost. 

I believe aging is natural, meaning it is natural to get old.  I think getting older is to be embraced.  We accumulate knowledge, experience, wisdom and contribute to the lives of others.  I don't think weakening, fragility, lack of energy, lack of intense ****** pleasure and the loss of physical ability needs to be cherished.  And since we have discovered a cause of the loss, why not remedy it?  

Testosterone is normal and necessary part of the human body.  Bringing levels to a average range is not like taking ******, Zoloft, Xanax or Wine to make us feel better.

Your thoughts?

 Newly Old.   (Tomorrow will be my follow up labs.  Then my weekly shot, but I have not felt a big drop off like after the first couple of shots)


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## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> I don't know if I made something clear.  My Cenegenics physician is the family relative whose medical expertise and academic dedication I trust.  And I am taking somewhat of the attitude that I failed miserably at diet and exercise despite all that I know as a physician.  I think I provide excellent care to my patients.  But, that does not spill over to making rational choices for myself.  I knew that I should not have eaten the bottle of Marsmallow Fluff, but ...



I'm fairly certain you had mentioned that earlier, but thanks for re-stating it - transparency is a GOOD thing. 

... and that Fluff will get you every time - I used to be addicted to Fluffernutters. layful:




> ... a tidbit that came to mind for you to reflect on (maybe too far out there for this discussion).  If my body will naturally age and hormones, etc decline,mid that what is "supposed " to happen, should we be altering it?  Osteoporosis is a normal part of aging.  Is its role to stop us from doing the physical activity of youth?  Are they aches pains and fatigue also nature's way of making us slow down because that is how mankind is designed?  Are we supposed to be slowing down so that we gradually turn over the world to the younger?  Have we been upsetting the balance by finding ways to have people love longer?



I appreciate your tackling this because it's a big thorn in my side, not just for Cenegenics but with much modern healthcare in general. 

I'll take your last statement first: modern prolongation / healing techniques HAVE I believe upset the "natural balance" of society. We look back at the Black Death, cholera, and high rates of infant deaths and we puff out our chests and congratulate ourselves for having brought them under control. But what is the end result?

Roughly 7.2 billion people. 

Of course, not all of those people are healthy - in fact, to this day, in many areas of the globe there are entire societies that are going without food, water, education or healthcare. Yes, we very cleverly opened Pandora's Box, but we weren't prepared for what was inside.

Are we smart enough to prolong life? Not from the technical aspects - we certainly have enough fully-convoluted gray matter to do the job. But are we ready to deal with the multitude of problems that are bound to attend to such life extension? We can't even handle what we have NOW - how is adding a few hundred million "healthy" old people going to help?

I'm not a religious person, but I AM a spiritual one, of sorts. I believe that there is a natural order of things, an order that Mankind has been violating since his first appearance on this planet. Extending his brief stay on the planet by even a few years throws a monkey wrench into the works.

Now, remaining healthy for your natural lifespan is fine, and of course the question is what is that span? Whatever it is, for each individual, I cannot agree with adding a few milligrams of youth to an elderly person - that isn't the Way of Things. Health, yes. Prolongation of youth, no.



> DO NOT TAKE THESE STATEMENTS TO REPRESENT MY BELIEFS!  I am just pushing the discussion to an extreme point.



Not extreme at all. I think the mental and spiritual aspects of such programs need to be explored as thoroughly as the physical ones.



> The he testosterone blood normal ranges that my internist did are considered reference lab normals for adults.  I do not know if it is broken down more precisely.  My familiarity with testosterone is in children, adolescence and young adults.  Normals are different for pre pubertal, each of the 5 stages of puberty and the adults.  I am sure 2 different 70 year olds could have 2 different T levels and their physiologic and functional status could parallel that.  Is the one with higher T, better BMI, muscle strength, etc normal and the other one in need of treatment or do we say each is appropriate and that there is no norm for 70 year olds physical and physiological state?



I would be inclined to agree with the latter - that there IS no norm. There are averages and there are deviations, but no norms.



> Let me jump to a recent Endocrine Society paper on the use of T supplements. It says essentially that if a person has low T on blood testing, and it is confirmed on a repeat,  AND if there are symptoms of low T, then it is reasonable to try giving T to see if symptoms are reversed.  That's my interpretation of a much more detailed explanation.   That does not answer if the low T and symptoms are normal for aging.



Having danced along the sharp edge of the "publish or perish" phenomenon myself years ago I am all too aware that papers reflect, often unwittingly, the prejudices and beliefs of the authors. It becomes a game of "You show me a _pro_ position and I'll show you a _con_".  I realize that, especially in the medical profession, papers and symposiums serve as the cutting-edge of knowledge.

... but a cutting-edge consists of two sides.



> There is the standard question, which you allude to and I cannot answer.  If low T and the resulting diminished physiological and physical functions are "normal" with age, should they be treated solely because it makes people feel better, stronger, more active, happy and makes their lives "better?"
> 
> One point of view is that we get old and our bodies deteriorate.  That is normal and we should accept that.  Another is that deterioration is NOT normal, and that if we can slow or reverse that, we should.  If living to 100 is common in some families, does that mean that humans are really designed to be capable of that and do deteriorate younger is abnormal?  If people lose hearing with age, should we try to prevent it or accept it as normal.



As Shakespeare would say, "Aye, therein lies the rub". 

I've been watching those television commercials with the Okinawan supplements - they make a huge deal of the Okinawans living to over 100 years and that these supplements contain the essence of the foodstuffs and herbs that are responsible. What they fail to tell you is that the average age of Okinawans has been decreasing for the past two decades and that there is far more involved than just diet. But they play upon the natural human desire for immortality.

As I mentioned in a previous paragraph, my own belief is that we are spitting at the gods when we try to prolong our lives past what is "natural". Of course, this can lead to circular argument and I don't think any one answer will serve everyone. 



> Next stretch of logic.  In some, the heart ages and gives way faster than the other organ systems.  In others, they will suffer or die because their kidneys deteriorate before the rest of the body.  In some, the body functions well until death at 100. , but the brain deteriorated to poorly functional after age 95.
> 
> Perhaps, in some, the testes start to deteriorate earlier resulting in  low t causing all of the symptoms that are deteriorating the quality of life.
> 
> For me, if it is safely done and monitored, I want to have all parts of my body functioning as well possible.  It has me feeling great and is safe with appropriate monitoring.  I can rationalize taking T because my T level is low, so that raising it to a level which is "normal" should do no harm.  As an added effect, it gives me the energy and strength to exercise, which I think all will say is important to health.  So, I do not see a reason not to do it except for cost.



Agreed, as far as it goes.



> I believe aging is natural, meaning it is natural to get old.  I think getting older is to be embraced.  We accumulate knowledge, experience, wisdom and contribute to the lives of others.  I don't think weakening, fragility, lack of energy, lack of intense ****** pleasure and the loss of physical ability needs to be cherished.  And since we have discovered a cause of the loss, why not remedy it?



Ah, the center of the maelstrom! 

I don't claim that the physical ailments of aging should be cherished; on the contrary, we should fight tooth and nail to make ourselves comfortable. But I disagree that we have discovered the cause of the losses, nor have we cured them. We have found a useful Band-Aid to apply to them that, at least for a short while, allows us to believe that we have cheated Father Time and Mother Nature.

But as the commercials from the '70's said, "NOBODY fools Mother Nature!" 

I don't mean to belittle what you're doing - far from it: I admire it and wish you every success. But for me, at least with the testosterone supplementation (don't know if the program gets into HGH - that would be an entirely new discussion), I am still forced to say it isn't for me. The diet, the exercise, even the frequent blood work - all of those I could embrace. But I would never consider getting cosmetic surgery (though I make bridge trolls recoil in horror), I would never consider getting an organ transplant (at 55 my life is just about done - give it to someone younger) and I wouldn't want to rely upon weekly injections to sustain my "youth". I favor natural methods - well, as natural as can be, meaning no external stimuli to keep the body going. 

I mentioned earlier that I am a Taijiquan practitioner. Although it has gained an almost mystical reputation amongst laymen the truth is that it is a lifestyle adjustment: you re-learn all the basics - breathing, standing, walking - and through those adjustments you discover better health. I walk every day and in my travels I see few others walkers - everyone is driving around in their cars. It's when they get OUT of those cars, usually to go into an eating establishment, that I see yet another way of prolonging my life naturally: by not buying-into the herd mentality. I am told I'm not a man unless I drive a powerful car - I don't drive. I am told that successful people start their day with an Egg McMuffin - I don't touch fast food. I am bombarded daily by adds that tell me how wonderful my life can be if only I get a prescription for this wonder drug or that - I don't use any pharmaceuticals. 

Yet here I am at 55, able to lick my weight in wild caterpillars and keep up with my late 20's - early 30's lady friends. I have bad habits, sure - especially now that I have "retired" - but 43 years of following the Path that I have followed has stood me in good stead. It isn't due to good genetics - I have lived the longest of my entire nuclear family - and it isn't due to the wonder of modern medical care - I haven't been to a doctor in over 30 years. I like to think it is the daily exercise, the manual labor, the proper nutrition and the healthy mindset that allows me to function at the level I'm currently at.

Now, ask me again in 10-15 years and I might have a different story to tell. But part of my philosophy is that I have accomplished everything I ever wanted in life, and that I am ready to welcome my old friend Death at any time. You would not _believe_ what a relief that kind of thinking is, but of course it isn't for everybody.


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## Newly Old

I admire you and understand your perspective.  As a matter of fact, I cannot disagree with anything.  (As an aside, did you know that many studies of antidepressants are set-up to guarantee the results?  It is a clever trick.  In order for the results to be "statistically significant,"  there must be a certain number of people in the study.  If you end up using too few, no matter what the results are, you can honestly say, "No statistical difference was found in the amount of side effects of our drug and drug X" or the like.  Clever.  Have a small study and you know what the results will be, no matter what the results!  A university based medical ethicist wrote about this.)

Back to the interesting stuff.   I think it is great to live life the propper way and gain the benefits in health, vigor, enjoyment, etc.  Or should I be saying, don;t live modern life because it takes away your health, your vigor, you happiness, your serenity, etc.   

Yes, we are fooling mother nature, but where is the line that we don't want to cross?  Is pastuerizing milk going overboard?  Is radiating food?  How about eating produce grown elsewhere?  Should I eat mangos if I live in a cold climate?  Certainly, the globalization of food markets has changed the landscape, so to speak.  Is growing crops designated for another part of the world a misuse of the soil?

My problem is that I have never been successful in doing things the right way.  Failed at exercise, failed at healthy eating. Failed at boing motivated to investigate and use supplements.

Selfishly, I would like to cheat, or let's say modify my aging in the only way I can, given my poor record of doing things the right way.  My goal is not to live longer.  My grandparents, aunt and uncle who lived to be mid 90's to over a hundred had miserable final years.  I would love to die when I am still healthy and active.  So, I see this as boosting me to maintain this level as my body heads to eventual death.

Every part of our body will eventually wear out if enough time passes.  I think it is okay to try to get the one that is failing back up to the level of the other parts if it is possible.  Each person has their own idea of how far they would go. I would also refuse a kidney, or other transplant.  I am not sure what I would choose if I got a brain tumor.  Probably would not treat it.

For me, testosterone makes sense because it works well, does not seem likely to cause me any harm, and is not illegal, immoral or fattening.  I do not think I can feel this well any other way.  I can exercise on testosterone, but it was a miserable experience on years past.  

You threw out the idea earlier of why not just the shots and go to a gym on my own, etc.   That to me would be too blatantly fooling mother nature.  But to be in a carefully designed and monitored program that gets me to eat correctly, exercise, take good supplements, follow my progress, plus "optimize" my hormones is, as a whole, a positive thing.

Another event in my life which has opened my eyes to what is important.  I was financially well off.  Not super rich, but the beautiful home, cars, possessions, money for luxuries or whims, etc. my entire life.  Then came the divorce.  All I asked for was shared custody of my 2 boys who I co-parented.  My attorney said to forget it.  No matter what the law says, in NY State the mother always gets custody unless she is a dangerously abusive drug addict, etc.  She was not, nor would I be willing to even criticize her as a mother.  He said that he admired my position, but it could cost $50k, $100k, almost no limit to fight for custody.  I said that having money meant nothing if I did not have my kids.  And it cost me every penny I had, every possession, everything gone.  I thought I loved owning one of the finest cars in the world.  Now I realize it means nothing.  I am a father to my boys.  I have no assets, no savings but a job I love that gets me a paycheck that covers our expenses.  Life is wonderful.  And I do not care about the possessions I once thought were so important.

Whew.  I will let you know how my testosterone levels change on the first 4 weeks of shots.  And so far, I love this way of eating.

Newly Old


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## SifuPhil

Heh, heh ... those studies ... loaded weapons in the wrong hands. But they have that patina of authority that is soooo important! 



			
				Newly Old said:
			
		

> Yes, we are fooling mother nature, but where is the line that we don't  want to cross?  Is pastuerizing milk going overboard?  Is radiating  food?  How about eating produce grown elsewhere?  Should I eat mangos if  I live in a cold climate?  Certainly, the globalization of food markets  has changed the landscape, so to speak.  Is growing crops designated  for another part of the world a misuse of the soil?



Yes, that's the line in the sand that we each have to draw for ourselves.

In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) they have a lot of old-folks tales that they pass off as wisdom, but one that I've always believed true is the one that concerns eating produce and meats that are native to your birthplace. Of course, this wisdom came about centuries before globalized food markets so they really didn't have a choice, but it just seems to make sense from most viewpoints. 

Of course, having grown up in Yonkers, NY my "native foods" were hamburgers, spaghetti and pizza. layful:

Personally I think that pasteurization is a double-edged sword: yes, it gets rid of potentially dangerous organisms, but it also kills off harmless and useful germs alike, and by subjecting the milk to  high temperatures, destroys some nutritious constituents. Radiating food? Totally against it. Mankind got along fine before the Chinese discovered heating wine for preservation purposes in the early 1100's, and before 1905 when patents were first issued for food irradiation. 

We have been "saved", no doubt ... but at what cost? 



> For me, testosterone makes sense because it works well, does not seem  likely to cause me any harm, and is not illegal, immoral or fattening.  I  do not think I can feel this well any other way.  I can exercise on  testosterone, but it was a miserable experience on years past.



But ALL of the most _fun_ things in life are illegal, immoral and fattening! 

I understand your point, and for the most part I agree. I'm just a Devil's advocate-kind of guy. 



> Another event in my life which has opened my eyes to what is important ...



Wow. 

Kudos for having the inner strength to get through that. My own divorce was friendly enough, possibly because I voluntarily gave up the Corvette, the house, all the toys, for the same reasons you did - the kids. Unfortunately my youngest was turned against me by his mother afterwards, so I only have contact with my oldest. 

Win some, lose some, I guess.


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## basefare

I have read some about it. It seems they use the growth hormone HGH and also use HEG. To my thinking the jury is still out on those products.


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## SifuPhil

basefare said:


> I have read some about it. It seems they use the growth hormone HGH and also use HEG. To my thinking the jury is still out on those products.



Yes, those are still questions I have in mind as well ...


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## Newly Old

It's been a few weeks since I last checked in.  The good thing is that I am happy with the new way of eating, have great energy, have lost several inches off my waist, and may libido is way up.  On the negative side is that I am paying monthly for meds and monthly for the program fees and it adds up.  I have had little need to contact them for advice.  When I do, they are there with quick suggestions but it still seems like I am paying a lot for support I seldom use.

My labs are doing well.. My testosterone is in the mid normal range.  My hematocrit has risen so I will have a pint removed to keep that from being a problem.  I can see that Testosterone replacement can be dangerous if the changes it causes are not closely followed.

Do I like the program?  For me it has been great.  My advice to others?  If you want to do a comprehensive program and are happy with changing your eating habits forever, it is terrific.  But I would only recommend it for those who want to make a lifestyle change.  

I am thinking of going back to the center to ask them to do a 3 month follow up photo to see how changed my body looks.  It's nice getting the complements from people who haven't seen me recently although at my age, I don't believe I can ever look "good."


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## Diwundrin

Yeah, well lookin' good is mostly what it's all about basically right? I wonder how many would enter into a 'foolproof' health regime like this for the fitness factor only?  If it guaranteed to make them all look like Lowland Gorillas would you still have a really marketable product??  Just wonderin'.


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## SifuPhil

Glad the program is working for you, and thanks for the update.


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## Newly Old

A word on Growth Hormone.  Mine is a little low.  Although Growth Hormone is precribed in a few cases, for me they said that most people who go on testosterone, nutrition, supplements and exercise program will have their growth hormone level become in the normal range.  (They also emphasize getting enough sleep because most growth hormone release occurs during sleep.)

Through my relative, a Cenegenics doctor, I learned that they are very strict about the use of Growth Hormone.  There is extensive education and very extensive guidelines for its use.  

I think people are confusing hormone "treatments" with hormone "replacement."  I do not condone testosterone treatments that raise levels above normal, which is what athletes do.  It is clearly unsafe.  I do believe that replacement therapy to bring sub-normal levels to normal is safe and makes sense.  It clearly is helping me.

I agree that "studies" are dangerous in the wrong hands.  As a physician, I was trained in how to analyze studies and their results, so I feel I am in a good position to understand them.  (BTW, a new trick for the pharmaceutical industry is to do studies with too few patients to have any statistical significance.  Then, no matter what the study outcome is, they can correctly state, "There was no statistically significant difference (in side effects, or whatever) between the new drug A and drug B.  There may be a real difference, but too few subjects makes any outcome "not statistically different."


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## Diwundrin

> I think people are confusing hormone "treatments" with hormone  "replacement."  I do not condone testosterone treatments that raise  levels above normal, which is what athletes do.  It is clearly unsafe.  I  do believe that replacement therapy to bring sub-normal levels to  normal is safe and makes sense.  It clearly is helping me.



So naturally occurring reduction of a hormone in bodies which due to aging have no further demand for it isn't 'normal'? 
Does nature know this?  It may be beneficial but replacement isn't 'normal'... just thought I'd get that out there.


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## SifuPhil

I might be a bit slow but I still don't get how a "normal" level is arrived at in their studies.

Is it "normal", "average", "mean"? What is the test population? What is the variance? The mean deviation? 

And speaking of that "trick" that the pharmaceutical industry uses (to great effect, in my opinion), exactly how long have testosterone studies been conducted? One long-term study that I know of (_Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism_, 2007;92:196-202. ), states that the decline of testosterone is a _generational_ effect, i.e. - not affected by nutrition, exercise or other lifestyle indicators. It was also age-independent. 

Interestingly enough they use as one possible scenario the fact that each succeeding generation is more overweight, more prone to use medications and less likely to smoke, all of which decrease T levels ...


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## Superboy60

*May be just what I'm looking for...*

Just seen the posts and thought I'd chime in...  I've been working out at the gym for more than 43 years, and continue to train through martial arts and Yoga.  At 66, I look and feel as good as guys half my age. 

I haven't started the program just yet (just learned about it), but for where I am now, I’m  6'0, 209 lbs.  Largely muscular physique.  CMP shows normal levels; HDL 65, LDL 146, TGC 55; still, my Chol/HDL ratio is a very good 3.4 (1/2 avg. coronary heart disease risk); no thyroid issues, Vit. D levels are on the plus side, total T level at 450, CRP at .4, Homocysteine at 10.5 and PSA at 1.19.  A1c is 5.6.  My A1c should be much lower, and the LDL needs help.  So, I’ve recently  adjusted my eating habits to achieve those lower numbers. 

The T levels do not seem to negatively affect my strength on the workout floor, as I push quite a lot of iron and do other isotonic exercises as well.  I have great definition compared to guys in their 40s and 50s.  The point is that, up until recently, I've been eating when and what I want, including drinking alcohol nightly (4 oz. of 153 proof grain and a dark beer), without ever a hint of any biological problem.  My trick is to immediately eat afterwards, and stop drinking once eating.  The alcohol metabolizes much faster and safer that way, as my liver and kidney enyzme levels continue to show. 

I’m a strong proponent of taking several nutrients daily, especially for control of sugar and insulin control, a methodology I acquired back in the early 80s, after reading Dirk Pearson and Sandy Shaw.  My next step will be to enroll in the program and see where it takes me.


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## Newly Old

The Cenegenics program is very expensive and is a comprehensive program which for most is a major lifestyle change.  It has been great for me, but your post did not say what you hoped to gain from the program.

My labs were also normal, except for slightly elevated inflammatory markers and low testosterone.  I have no health problems.  I enrolled because I want to do as much as I can to maintain health and function.  I feel the best I have in years.  That was a surprise because I thought I felt well before.  I had forgotten how I felt when I was 25 years younger.

I would not recommend the program unless a person has a clear-cut goal in mind and understand what the program entails and the lifestyle changes involved.  If it was just a diet, I could do it myself.  But my internist does not have the interest or expertise for the medical aspects.  It is very expensive, but the fees cover the lab tests and close monitoring by the physician, nutritionist, and trainer.  

What are your goals?

Newly Old


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## Newly Old

A quick follow-up for those interested about a real person on Cenegenics.  My latest bloods showed that my hemoglobin is on the high side due to the testosterone.   I have donated blood, and I was told in advance that increased hemoglobin is not unusual on Testosterone.  All my other parameters are excellent and I feel great, but I do not like the fact my hemoglobin went too high.

My testosterone is "replacement."  It is not the high dose used for building muscles.  It is to raise blood testosterone level from abnormally low to the middle of the normal range.  Currently it is higher part of normal range, so my dose will be adjusted.

I think it shows how important it is to have any testosterone replacement therapy done by an expert who is monitoring all of the necessary blood parameters on an ongoing basis.  It is not as simple as gong on testosterone and getting checked once or twice a year.

Am I still happy with Cenegenics.  
Absolutely.  I feel the best I have in years, and I have been able to maintain the healthy diet and exercise to have lost my gut, my backaches, my knee aches and my fatigue.


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## debora1977

The diet is Cenegenics diet based on hormonal changes. I understand that for many it may come. Are there any health risks during the use of hormones?


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## Newly Old

debora1977 said:


> The diet is Cenegenics diet based on hormonal changes. I understand that for many it may come. Are there any health risks during the use of hormones?




No!  The diet has nothing to do with hormones.  That being said, if you are very overweight, it is common to have insulin resistance, high fasting insulin and an elevated Hgb A1c.  Losing weight on a low carb diet will often correct this.  So, from that standpoint, hormone balance improves.

low carb diet with meals and snack spaced out is designed to keep insulin levels low and without peaks.  Eliminating insulin peaks is a big goal, because the peaks increase the risks of heart disease, strokes, etc.

My diet: 6 egg omelet with only 1 yolk for breakfast.  handful of almonds and a few dried apricots mid morning.   sandwich win lettuce, tomato, chicken and lots of mayonnaise for lunch.  Protein smoothie with strawberries and almonds mid afternoon.  dinner with 4 oz meat, salad, green veg for dinner.  High protein low carb pudding for later eve dessert if I want a sweet snack.  And tons of water.   That's all there is to it.

Newly old


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