# How are we feeling about climate change, (can't be bothered?)?



## grahamg (Sep 29, 2021)

Now I've deliberately chosen a provocative title here, but the critical element implied or stated, ("can't be bothered?"), I'm really saying as a way of criticising myself!!!!

Its just too easy to put your hands up and say or think, "What can I/We do"? (either because the whole issue seems too big to think about right now, or else other troubles in my life are crowding out thinking about such a fundamental issue).


----------



## senior chef (Sep 29, 2021)

Then again, how much of climate change is man caused and how much is natural and re-occurring hundreds of times ?  Recall that 20,000 years ago much of North America and Northern Europe and Asia were covered in ice up to a mile thick. 
The one thing which bothers me are those people who are nearly hysterical over "climate change" completely ignore the dozens and dozens of ice ages followed by global heating.


----------



## Manatee (Sep 29, 2021)

Nothing that I _could _do would change anything.        I would not be allowed to park a mule in front of my condo, and an electric car would not work logistically.  
I believe there are a lot of ideas/proposals that are grossly impractical.  I fear what dumb ideas might be hatched in Washington.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 29, 2021)

Climate Change is certainly coming.  I doubt that I will see any major issues, at my age....but I wonder how my Grandkids, and beyond will be affected.  I think we are very close....if not already at the "tipping point"...beyond which there is little that can be done to avoid the looming problems.  I'm sure the politicians will try to pass a bunch of legislation in the near future....with little chance of changing anything, other than adding huge costs to the costs of transportation, and manufacturing, etc.


----------



## Nathan (Sep 29, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Now I've deliberately chosen a provocative title here, but the critical element implied or stated, ("can't be bothered?"), I'm really saying as a way of criticising myself!!!!
> 
> Its just too easy to put your hands up and say or think, *"What can I/We do"?* (either because the whole issue seems too big to think about right now, or else other troubles in my life are crowding out thinking about such a fundamental issue).


"What can I/We do"?   Well for starters we can support politicians that are interested in finding solutions, rather than electing those that want to use deception and denial, in order to protect their fossil fuel stocks.


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Manatee said:


> Nothing that I _could _do would change anything.        I would not be allowed to park a mule in front of my condo, and an electric car would not work logistically.
> I believe there are a lot of ideas/proposals that are grossly impractical.  I fear what dumb ideas might be hatched in Washington.


Can I both agree and disagree with you at the same time(?) 

It has to be true, that once someone, (or perhaps most people), accept, or assume made made climate change is real, that a solution to something "man made" is soluble, (at least if action is taken before a "tipping point" is reached, if it hasn't already.

The threat to be dealt with somehow, the degree of action needed in proportion to the best assessment of the level of threat, all this could lead anyone of us, given we had unlimited and untrammeled power over the whole world, and everyone in/on it!

You may remember the "Single child policy" followed by the totalitarian communist regime in China thirty or forty years ago, (a policy much lauded in the West I seem to remember).

What an impact such a drastic measure would have if imposed on every single couple wishing to start a family, (I can't think of a policy likely to create as much benefit to planet earth, were it all we wanted to consider). I'd be against such an extreme policy, even though I can see the perfect logic of "Less people = Less emissions".

However, as stated in OP, I'm far too swamped with other issues life has thrown at me to even bother too much about such an obviously overriding threat to our beautiful world, and all that's in it, (ridiculous I know!).


----------



## Capt Lightning (Sep 30, 2021)

Next month there is a "Climate conference" in Glasgow.  Apart from the delegates, there will thousands of Communists, Anarchists, Eco terrorists, tree huggers, vegans and every  shade of nutcase imaginable.  These will be watched over by thousands of police and doubtless thousands of journalists looking for sensationalist "exclusives" to sell their papers.  Speeches will be made and forgotten, promises will be made and immediately broken.  Millions of pounds will be wasted and in the end the result will be ZERO.  The mess and the damage will be cleared up, the delegates will congratulate themselves, the environmentalist weirdos will crawl back to their homes and polish their 'gas guzzling' cars and everything will return to some sort or normality.

When this Covid business is over, I want to catch up on the things I've missed.  International Travel, holidays, theatre etc...  I'll drive my diesel campervan, eat meat, use oil for my central heating and I won't feel bad about it.  I'm getting on a bit now and I just want to enjoy the time I've got left.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> Next month there is a "Climate conference" in Glasgow.  Apart from the delegates, there will thousands of Communists, Anarchists, Eco terrorists, tree huggers, vegans and every  shade of nutcase imaginable.  These will be watched over by thousands of police and doubtless thousands of journalists looking for sensationalist "exclusives" to sell their papers.  Speeches will be made and forgotten, promises will be made and immediately broken.  Millions of pounds will be wasted and in the end the result will be ZERO.  The mess and the damage will be cleared up, the delegates will congratulate themselves, the environmentalist weirdos will crawl back to their homes and polish their 'gas guzzling' cars and everything will return to some sort or normality.
> 
> When this Covid business is over, I want to catch up on the things I've missed.  International Travel, holidays, theatre etc...  I'll drive my diesel campervan, eat meat, use oil for my central heating and I won't feel bad about it.  I'm getting on a bit now and I just want to enjoy the time I've got left.


I totally agree with Capt Lightning. As far as I'm concerned the world has gone to hell … with or without climate change. Every nut case on the planet now has access to world wide media. Leftists top that list.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 30, 2021)

As long as everyone believes that it’s the other guy’s problem nothing will get done.

I believe that nature will eventually solve the problem but man may not be included in nature’s plan.


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> Next month there is a "Climate conference" in Glasgow.  Apart from the delegates, there will thousands of Communists, Anarchists, Eco terrorists, tree huggers, vegans and every  shade of nutcase imaginable.  These will be watched over by thousands of police and doubtless thousands of journalists looking for sensationalist "exclusives" to sell their papers.  Speeches will be made and forgotten, promises will be made and immediately broken.  Millions of pounds will be wasted and in the end the result will be ZERO.  The mess and the damage will be cleared up, the delegates will congratulate themselves, the environmentalist weirdos will crawl back to their homes and polish their 'gas guzzling' cars and everything will return to some sort or normality.
> 
> When this Covid business is over, I want to catch up on the things I've missed.  International Travel, holidays, theatre etc...  I'll drive my diesel campervan, eat meat, use oil for my central heating and I won't feel bad about it.  I'm getting on a bit now and I just want to enjoy the time I've got left.


You may not realise it but you are in agreement with Greta Thunberg there!


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> As long as everyone believes that it’s the other guy’s problem nothing will get done.
> I believe that nature will eventually solve the problem but man may not be included in nature’s plan.


Chilling assessment, and not far from the predictions given to students at my school fifty years ago, (nuclear war maybe finishing us off by 2050 teachers thought!).


----------



## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> As long as everyone believes that it’s the other guy’s problem nothing will get done.
> 
> I believe that nature will eventually solve the problem but man may not be included in nature’s plan.


Aunt Bea, you are probably correct.  
It would take a world-wide effort with every single nation on board. Not likely to happen.


----------



## timoc (Sep 30, 2021)

It is definitely happening, so.........


Don't live where there are lots of trees that can go on fire.

Don't live in areas that are prone to flooding.

Don't live in valleys or gorges where raging torrents can sweep away your home.

Don't live too close to the coast, where your home can topple into the sea, or a tsunami can overwhelm it.


For sale.
One executive style cave complete with outside privy.
For details........contact Mr Yeti.


----------



## Tommy (Sep 30, 2021)

"Climate Change" (formerly marketed as "Global Warming"):  A limited body of objective scientific evidence that has been almost completely obscured by an avalanche of propaganda spawned by the desire for wealth, power, control and notoriety.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

Tommy said:


> "Climate Change" (formerly marketed as "Global Warming"): A limited body of objective scientific evidence that has been almost completely obscured by an avalanche of propaganda spawned by the desire for wealth, power, control and notoriety.


I agree, except that I would not call the evidence "limited", we have a lot of it now.  I really appreciate the "_almost completely obscured by an avalanche of propaganda spawned by the desire for wealth, power, control and notoriety_" thing, very true!

I believe climate change is real, the earth's climate has never been stable, why should it be now?  I believe that in the past few years, very few in geologic perspective, things have been warming.  Ice is melting and sea level is rising.  And there is certainly good evidence that human impact has contributed.  Exactly how much is harder to know.  And its even  harder to know what will happen next, we are not very good at forecasting the weather more than a few hours or days out, multiyear trends are even harder to forecast.

Result is it is hard to know exactly what we can or should do about it, even for objective scientists, not surprising then that the public is confused.  I don't think we will arrive at any consensus on appropriate action.  So my approach is to keep an eye on it, support good research, and ignore the noise.  Though sorting out and ignoring all the nonsense is hard.  As to what I can do, other than support politicians who fund the good research it is probably limited.  I am thinking about what I can do to get ready for and deal with things as they change.  On a more personal level.  Not sure I will make the right decisions, but at least they will be mine...


Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that nature will eventually solve the problem but man may not be included in nature’s plan.


Very true!!


----------



## rgp (Sep 30, 2021)

OK, so who here is ready & willing to give-up electricity as we know it ? It has been proven that wind & solar will not provide at the excepted amount. 

Who here is ready to go back to the outhouse? Who here is ready to give up their car ? and go back to not only riding a horse, but shoveling tons upon tons of horse manure out of the cities, not to mention watching & smelling as 100s of gallons, [maybe more] of horse urine runs down the gutters.

What is going to power that office,shop,store or? that you work in ?

What is going to power this L/top I am typing on ? Ready to give up Netflix? On air sports ? Cell phones?

The earth is an ever evolving rock on which we live , we use it as best we can to better our lives. 

Who here is ready & willing to go backwards ?


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, so who here is ready & willing to give-up electricity as we know it ? It has been proven that wind & solar will not provide at the excepted amount.
> Who here is ready to go back to the outhouse? Who here is ready to give up their car ? and go back to not only riding a horse, but shoveling tons upon tons of horse manure out of the cities, not to mention watching & smelling as 100s of gallons, [maybe more] of horse urine runs down the gutters.
> What is going to power that office,shop,store or? that you work in ?
> What is going to power this L/top I am typing on ? Ready to give up Netflix? On air sports ? Cell phones?
> ...


I'll have a go at going "off grid" if you want a volunteer, but your point is well made as to whether many will accept privations.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Sep 30, 2021)

6 years ago, my hair was on fire about our near future. I even picketed for action immediately on increasing climate catastrophes and the scientific "evidence" that the human race was in danger of causing our own extinction within decades....
  Today I don't care anymore. The feeling is gone. Nothing significant is being done or going to done ( apparently ), and I have only a few years left here, I guess it is real tough luck for our younger generations and their offspring.


----------



## SmoothSeas (Sep 30, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> Nothing significant is being done or going to done ( apparently ), and I have only a few years left here, I guess it is real tough luck for our younger generations and their offspring.




C'est ca...  And, that's the truly sad part.

Like you, I probably have only a few years left.  And while I won't be around to witness it, I still care.

But wait...  what if we come down the chute again?  What then...?   Live in our own mess?

Makes me shiver just to consider it...


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 30, 2021)

Actually, there is a lot of progress being made at the corporate/industrial level.  The big problems are China and India.  Both countries are still building coal-fired plants and spewing more, rather than less, carbon into the atmosphere each year.


----------



## oldpop (Sep 30, 2021)

As far as I am concerned climate change being true or untrue is sidestepping the real issue. It is absolutely unquestionable that we are destroying our own beautifully designed ecosystem and that just seems insane to me. Having said that I must admit I am part of the insanity. I try to leave a small footprint but to survive these days it is almost impossible to not be part of the problem. I think we are way past the tipping point. Besides killing each other on a regular basis our disregard for our planet/environment is one of humanities most urgent issues. I have no answers but I recognize the problem.


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

oldpop said:


> As far as I am concerned climate change being true or untrue is sidestepping the real issue. It is absolutely unquestionable that we are destroying our own beautifully designed ecosystem and that just seems insane to me. Having said that I must admit I am part of the insanity. I try to leave a small footprint but to survive these days it is almost impossible to not be part of the problem. I think we are way past the tipping point. Besides killing each other on a regular basis our disregard for our planet/environment is one of humanities most urgent issues. I have no answers but I recognize the problem.


Can you stretch your imagination to come up with one "earth shattering" big idea, (don't worry whether anyone would go along with it at this stage, as I didn't in post 6 above)?


----------



## Don M. (Sep 30, 2021)

The "emphasis" seems to be on Fossil Fuels.  However, with the increasing global droughts, the Forest Fires are probably releasing more "pollutants" into the atmosphere than all the cars, trucks, power plants, etc., combined.  Then add in the millions of tons of Methane that are locked into the Permafrost, and ocean depths...which are being released increasingly into the air, and I seriously doubt that Anything can be done to reverse these conditions.  Increased "regulations" will only drive consumer prices substantially higher, and make life miserable for millions.  

Those living in coastal areas, only a few feet above current sea levels, are living on borrowed time.  Those living in drought prone areas, surrounded by drying/flammable vegetation, are just one lightning strike away from losing everything.


----------



## RadishRose (Sep 30, 2021)

Terrified.


----------



## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

Tommy said:


> "Climate Change" (formerly marketed as "Global Warming"):  A limited body of objective scientific evidence that has been almost completely obscured by an avalanche of propaganda spawned by the desire for wealth, power, control and notoriety.


I would add that Climate Change has been exhaustively verified by overwhelming evidence, and that the big money interests have been successful in spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt in the minds of those vulnerable to manipulation.      It's ironic that the very areas of the U.S. mainland that will receive the most impact of the effects of Climate Change(politically Red states) will be begging the Federal Government for federal assistance.   Sort of a "biblical" irony in my view.
The time for argument is past.


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Those living in drought prone areas, surrounded by drying/flammable vegetation, are just one lightning strike away from losing everything.


Yeah
That's one of the reasons we bought a place in town
Those lodgepole pines at the cabin are a tinderbox
Had some pretty close calls
One day....maybe next summer....it'll be gone


----------



## Ellwood970 (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Now I've deliberately chosen a provocative title here, but the critical element implied or stated, ("can't be bothered?"), I'm really saying as a way of criticising myself!!!!
> 
> Its just too easy to put your hands up and say or think, "What can I/We do"? (either because the whole issue seems too big to think about right now, or else other troubles in my life are crowding out thinking about such a fundamental issue).


----------



## Ellwood970 (Sep 30, 2021)

I do what I can. Recycle. Drive less. Travel less.  Garden locally. Use less plastics. I do not consume as much. The earth will adapt somehow. Whether humans are part of the adaption is way beyond anything I can do about it.


----------



## oldpop (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Can you stretch your imagination to come up with one "earth shattering" big idea, (don't worry whether anyone would go along with it at this stage, as I didn't in post 6 above)?


I can think and dream of all kinds of solutions. We Humans are headed to our destruction like a stampeded pre-Columbian era Buffalo herd. And like that herd it is next to impossible to stop it.

My suggestion is to go back to the barter system. Getting rid of all the worthless paper money that is backed by nothing. Steering away from the whole concept of paper money that people lie, cheat, steal, die and war for would alleviate many many of the plagues that we have brought upon ourselves in these times.

Problem is everything and I mean everything in the world today revolves around that money and the ones who have it are not going to let that change. That is why people are are bogged down in their own lives. Many barely have time to come up for air. They are to busy taking care of the children, bills and everything else that life throws at us. Ever think that may be by design? There you go that is my stretched imagination


----------



## Geezerette (Sep 30, 2021)

I just want all the air and water quality to be the best it can be, and keep human/industrial pollution to a minimum! I lived in Pgh while the steel mills were putting junk into the air, and after they closed when it was so much cleaner. So much healthier &  more pleasant, and less damage to material things. And Pgh recovered economically just fine. I have  seen several rivers cleaned up to the point where they could be used for clean recreational activities, improving the quality of of life and bringing in clean business. 
I’m not going into theories of what causes what, but humans MUST do what they can to keep the planet’s air, water and ground as clean & healthy as possible for their own survival.


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

Ellwood970 said:


> I do what I can. Recycle. Drive less. Travel less. Garden locally. Use less plastics. I do not consume as much. The earth will adapt somehow. Whether humans are part of the adaption is way beyond anything I can do about it.


That's where we are

And the vote....signing of petitions


----------



## oldpop (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> That's where we are
> 
> And the vote....signing of petitions


At this point that's about all we can do. I have the imagination of a twenty year old but the rest of me is more prone to take a nap......


----------



## squatting dog (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> You may not realise it but you are in agreement with Greta Thunberg there!


Greta.....


----------



## Geezerette (Sep 30, 2021)

I resent the implication that a young woman (not a child) is unable to learn science, is unable to form opinions on her own based on learning and observation, and is being manipulated by others. Treated as a stereotype.
Squat, you are beginning to sound like you’re a stereotype yourself, those guys who take pride in seeing how ignorant they can stay, discrediting information that they are too stupid to process.


----------



## spectratg (Sep 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Climate Change is certainly coming.  I doubt that I will see any major issues, at my age....but I wonder how my Grandkids, and beyond will be affected.  I think we are very close....if not already at the "tipping point"...beyond which there is little that can be done to avoid the looming problems.  I'm sure the politicians will try to pass a bunch of legislation in the near future....with little chance of changing anything, other than adding huge costs to the costs of transportation, and manufacturing, etc.


Unfortunately I think we are well past the tipping point.  We sowed the seeds of our own destruction at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution some 250 years ago!  The Great Filter (Fermi paradox) is directly in front of us.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 30, 2021)

Ellwood970 said:


> I do what I can. Recycle. Drive less. Travel less.  Garden locally. Use less plastics. I do not consume as much.


 
Me too!

It doesn’t involve much if any sacrifice on my part.  Being frugal seems to go hand in hand with living green.

IMO we won’t be able to spend our way out of climate change.  It will take some changes in how we live.  Unfortunately it will also require some people to lose their way of life as some industries die and others emerge.

It’s all way too complicated for me to offer any global solutions.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Sep 30, 2021)

Like many seniors, I've worked hard, cut waste to the minimum,  made do and mended,  grown fruit and vegetables and bought locally raised meat etc.  In fact lived a fairly "Green" lifestyle before the word was fashionable.   Now we're retired, Mrs. L and I just want to enjoy ourselves.  We're going to travel more, drive more see the places we wanted to see and sample lots of good food and drink.  We're going to grow old disgracefully.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Those lodgepole pines at the cabin are a tinderbox


Yep, lodgepoles are a "fire climax" species, their natural cycle is to burn periodically.  The older the stand the greater the risk.

Try aspens, if you can get them to grow.  They are much more fire resistant!  

Fought fires for the Forest Service years ago, in my youth.  That's where I learned most of what I know about this...


----------



## fmdog44 (Sep 30, 2021)

We have the science to turn it around but we need the world to get on board. I read recently China's Xi Jinping told the UN General Assembly will stop building coal fired power plants abroad. Sounds good? My issues is when will the users of the world stop using them. China has pledged it carbon neutral by 2060. That seems too late to my thinking. As shorelines continue to disappear militaries and industries in ocean front locations are sweating as to how to deal with it.


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Yep, lodgepoles are a "fire climax" species, their natural cycle is to burn periodically. The older the stand the greater the risk.
> 
> Try aspens, if you can get them to grow. They are much more fire resistant!


Funny you should mention that
I dug up some young aspens and planted them in our meadow
I nurtured the heck outa 'em
Nada

Yeah, my next cabin will be in the aspens
Thing about them is wind
They tend to snap and fall....big time

Yeah, lodgepoles are not only a fire hazard, they, when they get too big, also blow over.

Now, Ponderosa pines are nice, and establish themselves
Only, they are not for the wood stove
They're creosote factories


----------



## squatting dog (Sep 30, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> I resent the implication that a young woman (not a child) is unable to learn science, is unable to form opinions on her own based on learning and observation, and is being manipulated by others. Treated as a stereotype.
> Squat, you are beginning to sound like you’re a stereotype yourself, those guys who take pride in seeing how ignorant they can stay, discrediting information that they are too stupid to process.


I'm sorry you feel that way. However,  I stand by my statement. One... Seeing as how she is only 18 now, I say she was a child when first jumping on the world stage. Two, she has no education whatsoever in the field of climate science that I can find, none, and three... For you,  I suppose Dr Judith Curry has no real standing in the climate change room. Yet you talk about being stupid. (sorry folks I do hate to resort to name calling, but, I can't let this insult go unanswered). Before shooting off your mouth, at least take the time to investigate and digest what is being said. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry


----------



## charry (Sep 30, 2021)

If we all did what one has to ,to clean the air , then fine.....but only 10% abide by it .....so what’s the point !


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

charry said:


> If we all did what one has to ,to clean the air , then fine.....but only 10% abide by it .....so what’s the point !


Encouraging others, (though you echo statements made by so many, myself included, trying to deal with day to day issues filling up your mind and capacity to think even).


----------



## Irwin (Sep 30, 2021)

The primary contributor to greenhouse gasses is the burning of fossil fuels, and we're slowly being weened off them with the advancement of electric vehicles. Soon, EVs will be ubiquitous, despite the fact that politicians in the pocket of big oil are doing everything they can to stop that from happening. The bare minimum they should do is to let it happen on its own instead of putting up barriers. It can happen more quickly with tax incentives and money for development.

Personally, I try to recycle everything I use that can be recycled. What really pisses me off is, every time there's a disaster, the government ships in pallets full of bottled water, which is a huge amount of plastic waste. Why can't they fly in large water storage tanks and pass out gallon containers instead?


----------



## Lewkat (Sep 30, 2021)

Obviously we've gone through several cycles of climate change since the earth was born.  During these cycles, nature heaps all sorts of catastrophes upon us and some species become extinct as a result.  Dinosaurs and the like are gone and others have followed.  I believe it is simply natural evolution combine with the industrial era and now the technology era adding to these changes.  Eventually we too shall evolve and the cycle will begin again and many millennia down the road, the population will be crying in their beer about climate change.  So, what else is new?


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Obviously we've gone through several cycles of climate change since the earth was born.  During these cycles, nature heaps all sorts of catastrophes upon us and some species become extinct as a result.  Dinosaurs and the like are gone and others have followed.  I believe it is simply natural evolution combine with the industrial era and now the technology era adding to these changes.  Eventually we too shall evolve and the cycle will begin again and many millennia down the road, the population will be crying in their beer about climate change.  So, what else is new?


I had a very funny argument with a good friend of mine about "evolution", when she stated "evolution stopped when modern man arrived", (something like this anyway).
My pithy comment I'm sure you'll admire was: "Who stopped it"?


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, That's one of the reasons we bought a place in town
> Those lodgepole pines at the cabin are a tinderbox
> Had some pretty close calls
> One day....maybe next summer....it'll be gone


One argument you're not making, (true as it is), is the one acknowledging most if not all on this forum won't be around when/if climate change spirals out of control, so why should we care(?). We'd still care wouldn't we, as would all the rest if they really engaged their faculties, but all of us will definitely admit, much as we might care about something coming down the road in X decades,  it would grab our attention slightly more, were it coming next year!!!!!


----------



## Granny B. (Sep 30, 2021)

spectratg said:


> Unfortunately I think we are well past the tipping point.  We sowed the seeds of our own destruction at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution some 250 years ago!  The Great Filter (Fermi paradox) is directly in front of us.


I had never heard of the Fermi paradox.  Thanks.  I'm always interested in learning some new perspectives.  I just took a quick read about it, but is sure does paint a bleak outlook. Care to explain in further detail?


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> I dug up some young aspens and planted them in our meadow
> I nurtured the heck outa 'em
> Nada


Yes, aspens are hard to get to grow and grow pretty slowly when they do.  Probably easier to find an aspen stand and build your house in it!


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Sep 30, 2021)

There was a time when Climate Change, due to excessive use of fossil fuels was a 'maybe'. That ship has sailed. There is enough scientific evidence that it is occurring. Some still do not "believe" the facts. Whether they do, or not is irrelevant. The climate is slowly changing.  It's hard to observe that without scientific instruments. And even if Climate Change was not happening, we still are polluting the planet with the exhaust from  billions of fossil fueled engines, furnaces, stoves, power plants, etc. And we aren't making dinosaurs anymore, we will run out of fossil fuel., we have to get a new, nonpolluting source of energy, or face the end of our civilization. It's prudent to save what fossil fuel we still have.


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Probably easier to find an aspen stand and build your house in it!


Yup

I'm looking (lotsa aspen near)

Had five acres at the end of the line, back in the 70s, chock full of bull alder
Loved the fall, when the leaves turned
And when the prairie wolves cried their songs to the moon, shedding it's rays thru those trees.... whoa
Gave me a chill I'll never forget


----------



## retiredtraveler (Sep 30, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, so who here is ready & willing to give-up electricity as we know it ? It has been proven that wind & solar will not provide at the excepted amount.
> 
> Yes, but there is so much more!!!! Solar panels could be put on every roof in the world. There are wave generators, currently in operation in the oceans. A relative newcomer are generators that sit on a river bottom and will generate year 'round under the ice because the current never stops in the river. Thousands of these could be deployed. There are generators tapping into the gas put out by landfills. There are biomass generators.  There are steam generators that use focused sunlight. There is an endless list of proven technologies. We simply don't have the political will to insist (and pay for) all the technologies that are already out there waiting to be expanded. Different technologies benefit certain areas.


----------



## HoneyNut (Sep 30, 2021)

I would like to do more to help reduce my carbon footprint, but I don't like change, on the other hand I am happy to follow any good ideas others have.  Like the awesome windows that some law regulation promoted I guess 10 years ago and there were even rebates.  We had a big wind storm and hail 10 years ago and had to replace some doors and windows, and the newer energy efficient ones are awesome compared to the crummy ones the house was built with.  Also, if the government would have people who would come out and help me to find ways to make the house more energy efficient I would love that.
I've heard that the majority of houses will be able to supply the majority of their own electricity within 20 years (and I guess I heard it a few years ago, so maybe in 18 years).  
I would not mind being forced to put in solar roofing or a windmill if it would pay for itself in several years (assuming I could get a loan to put it in and then afford to pay it off by savings in electric bill).  But I would not just do it voluntarily, it would have to be strongly promoted somehow.  It would probably create a lot of jobs and be good for the economy too (except for the oil companies of course).
A few years ago I had the florescent lights in my kitchen upgraded to use led (I think it is) which is supposed to pay for the upgrade by electricity savings after a few years.  I'm not sure how to know if they really do, but it made me feel virtuous and economical.
I totally support when the government had been going to make auto companies have more fuel efficient vehicles, I would love to save money on gas, it is too bad the politicians (presumably in the pockets of big oil) stopped that.  But a big change like a switch to electric or natural gas vehicles I would only do when/if everyone else does.
I've heard on a podcast that refrigerators and freezers use a lot of energy and that there are foods that we are used to keeping refrigerated or frozen that do just fine at shelf temperature with proper treatment.  I guess like the little no-refrigeration-needed milk cartons my daughter liked as a kid.  There again tho, it is too big of a change for me unless I saw everyone else doing it.
I would love to have hot water that heats up only when needed, but it would need to be promoted strongly and have nice options and people who knew how to install it.  When I was in Wales on vacation (pre-Covid) I stayed at a place that had something that made the hot water for the shower right there in the shower somehow, a square thing on the wall I think it was.  Seems so much more sensible than having a hot water heater keep water hot 24 hrs a day.  If I was forced to get an intelligent water heater I could easily program to get a lot cooler during unused overnight hours, I'd be happy to have it.  But it is too much new-ness for me to voluntarily try to shop for it.
I await the leadership of others.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> There was a time when Climate Change, due to excessive use of fossil fuels was a 'maybe'. That ship has sailed. There is enough scientific evidence that it is occurring. Some still do not "believe" the facts. Whether they do, or not is irrelevant. The climate is slowly changing.  It's hard to observe that without scientific instruments. And even if Climate Change was not happening, we still are polluting the planet with the exhaust from  billions of fossil fueled engines, furnaces, stoves, power plants, etc. And we aren't making dinosaurs anymore, we will run out of fossil fuel., we have to get a new, nonpolluting source of energy, or face the end of our civilization. It's prudent to save what fossil fuel we still have.


There certainly is truth to this, on both counts.  

What do you think about nuclear energy?  It produces none of the gases burning hydrocarbons do, and is not likely to run out any time soon.


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> One argument you're not making, (true as it is), is the one acknowledging most if not all on this forum won't be around when/if climate change spirals out of control, so why should we care(?). We'd still care wouldn't we, as would all the rest if they really engaged their faculties, but all of us will definitely admit, much as we might care about something coming down the road in X decades, it would grab our attention slightly more, were it coming next year!!!!!


Well, grahammy, I *am *doing what I think to be most effective.
And that's my part
Recycle
Conserve
Vote
Other things that don't come to mind, because they're ingrained habits now

...and no, electric cars will never be in my personal or voting agenda

If SHTF next year? What would anybody do now?


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Well, grahammy, I *am *doing what I think to be most effective. (Break)
> 
> If SHTF next year? What would anybody do now?


What's on your "bucket list", (if you have such a thing, " might be time to get one if you don't"!)?


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> What's on your "bucket list", (if you have such a thing, " might be time to get one if you don't"!)?


I've kicked it

It overflowed 

Been everywhere I care to be

Done more than I ever dreamed I would

Thankful for cruise control


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> I've kicked it
> It overflowed
> Been everywhere I care to be
> Done more than I ever dreamed I would
> Thankful for cruise control


You are ready to go tomorrow, (completed autobiography I hope!?)!


----------



## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

grahamg said:


> You are ready to go tomorrow, (completed autobiography I hope!?)!


Oh, I've still got a small sippy cup list


----------



## grahamg (Sep 30, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Oh, I've still got a small sippy cup list


Good job, although there is no shortage of bucket lists, "there may be a shortage of buckets to write them on I've heard"!


----------



## squatting dog (Oct 1, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> There was a time when Climate Change, due to excessive use of fossil fuels was a 'maybe'. That ship has sailed. There is enough scientific evidence that it is occurring. Some still do not "believe" the facts. Whether they do, or not is irrelevant. The climate is slowly changing.  It's hard to observe that without scientific instruments. And even if Climate Change was not happening, we still are polluting the planet with the exhaust from  billions of fossil fueled engines, furnaces, stoves, power plants, etc. And we aren't making dinosaurs anymore, we will run out of fossil fuel., we have to get a new, nonpolluting source of energy, or face the end of our civilization. It's prudent to save what fossil fuel we still have.


Do you really believe that the oil we're drilling today is still coming from dead dinosaurs? And, "if" the earth is still turning dead dinosaurs into crude oil, doesn't it stand to reason that all dead creatures (including us) are also being turned into crude oil? So, in reality, all dead creatures are a renewable source.


----------



## Tom 86 (Oct 1, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, so who here is ready & willing to give-up electricity as we know it ? It has been proven that wind & solar will not provide at the excepted amount.
> 
> Who here is ready to go back to the outhouse? Who here is ready to give up their car ? and go back to not only riding a horse, but shoveling tons upon tons of horse manure out of the cities, not to mention watching & smelling as 100s of gallons, [maybe more] of horse urine runs down the gutters.
> 
> ...


I did this back in the late '40s & early '50s so not hard to go back to.  We had a Windmill that we got power from for a radio 32 volt lights NO TV. We had the old outhouse.  I dug a few new holes as a kid.  We cut dead wood from forests for cookstove & also heating pot belly in the center of the house.  Had big gardens & had pigs, chickens, cows & horses for working with.  

  We still had major blizzards & heat in summertime back then.  The only thing was we only got the news at 6 pm for 1/2 hr on the radio.  You never got instant news from people wanting to make a name for themselves.


----------



## WheatenLover (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I totally agree with Capt Lightning. As far as I'm concerned the world has gone to hell … with or without climate change. Every nut case on the planet now has access to world wide media. Leftists top that list.


Leftists are the canaries in the coal mine.


----------



## spectratg (Oct 1, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Obviously we've gone through several cycles of climate change since the earth was born.  During these cycles, nature heaps all sorts of catastrophes upon us and some species become extinct as a result.  Dinosaurs and the like are gone and others have followed.  I believe it is simply natural evolution combine with the industrial era and now the technology era adding to these changes.  Eventually we too shall evolve and the cycle will begin again and many millennia down the road, the population will be crying in their beer about climate change.  So, what else is new?


Unfortunately I don't share your optimism.  Evolution of animal species takes place over thousands of years.  Climate change is happening now and apparently at an accelerated rate.  There may be an "intelligent" species on this planet in many millennia, but i don't think it will be the human race.


Granny B. said:


> I had never heard of the Fermi paradox.  Thanks.  I'm always interested in learning some new perspectives.  I just took a quick read about it, but is sure does paint a bleak outlook. Care to explain in further detail?


For a comprehensive explanation, I would refer you to:    The Fermi Paradox - Wait But Why


----------



## StarSong (Oct 1, 2021)

spectratg said:


> For a comprehensive explanation, I would refer you to: The Fermi Paradox - Wait But Why


Fascinating read.  Thanks for the link!


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 1, 2021)

I think the concept that the elevated global temperatures are due to natural causes, may have been valid  60 years ago. But no one can point to any natural phenomena,  volcanos etc  , which can account for the higher temps. It's man made. For God's sake, even the Pope and other religious leaders have endorsed Climate Change. Some think it's a couple of degrees warmer-no big deal. But it's going to be changing fertile areas into deserts. There's going to be huge shifts in populated areas. It's not going to be a few 100,000 refugees, but entire nations. The people in this forum aren't going to be around for this, but our kids and grandkids will be. It's irresponsible to dump on our loved ones, a preventable outcome.


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I think the concept that the elevated global temperatures are due to natural causes, may have been valid  60 years ago. But no one can point to any natural phenomena,  volcanos etc  , which can account for the higher temps. It's man made. For God's sake, even the Pope and other religious leaders have endorsed Climate Change. Some think it's a couple of degrees warmer-no big deal. But it's going to be changing fertile areas into deserts. There's going to be huge shifts in populated areas. It's not going to be a few 100,000 refugees, but entire nations. The people in this forum aren't going to be around for this, but our kids and grandkids will be. It's irresponsible to dump on our loved ones, a preventable outcome.


I would point out that the last ice age ended 10,000 years ago and the earth began to warm up. Think about that. Did the small campfires of pre-historic man cause that warming trend ? Not bloody likely. 

8,000 years ago, the ENTIRE Sahara Desert was a vast green land filled with elephant, hippos, crocodiles, and herbivores of every sort.  Over time, that changed into what we see today ... a scorching, sandy wasteland. Did man cause that ?  No ! Of course not. 

It is as natural for the earth to change climate, as it is for the sun to rise every morning.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Well, grahammy, I *am *doing what I think to be most effective.
> Break
> If SHTF next year? What would anybody do now?



I thought a bit more about your post above, and I heard the lyrics to this song today, and thought they maybe appropriate here. Sung by Engelbert Humperdinck, who you may remember as I think he was popular in the US as well as the UK, thirty or more years ago.

*"IF"*

If a picture paints a thousand words,
Then why can't I paint you?
The words will never show the you I've come to know.
If a face could launch a thousand ships,
Then where am I to go?
There's no one home but you,
You're all that's left me too.
And when my love for life is running dry,
You come and pour yourself on me.
If a man could be two places at one time,
I'd be with you.
Tomorrow and today, beside you all the way.
*If the world should stop revolving spinning slowly down to die,
I'd spend the end with you.
And when the world was through,
Then one by one the stars would all go out,
Then you and I would simply fly away





*


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I would point out that the last ice age ended 10,000 years ago and the earth began to warm up. Think about that. Did the small campfires of pre-historic man cause that warming trend ? Not bloody likely.
> 8,000 years ago, the ENTIRE Sahara Desert was a vast green land filled with elephant, hippos, crocodiles, and herbivores of every sort.  Over time, that changed into what we see today ... a scorching, sandy wasteland. Did man cause that ?  No ! Of course not.
> It is as natural for the earth to change climate, as it is for the sun to rise every morning.


Just suppose, "for the sakes of argument" you are wrong, and someone else just might be on the money, "What then" would you suggest, were you ruler of the whole world, not just your own?
"One child policy across the globe"?
"Folks changing habits enough to at least have a go at reducing carbon emissions"?

We're only supposing here because as you can see from the thread title and my account of my own situation, "climate change" (real or imaginary?), isn't filling up too much of my head space right now!


----------



## Judycat (Oct 1, 2021)

I burn coal to heat my house so I must be unconcerned. My friend from NYC is ecologically aware. She asks me every time she calls how I am heating my house. I tell her every time I am heating with coal. There is a long shocked pause and then an oh. People really get on my nerves sometimes. I don't ask her how she rides her butt uptown because I know she doesn't take the subway.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 1, 2021)

Several things:

Feel there are multiple factors including negative human practices in addition to natural cyclical patterns.

My only hope for correction is a shift ...really soon!... to a natural cool cycle, because I don't think human behavior is going to sufficiently make an impact on the current warming trend.  We peons that try can't make a dent to counteract the atrocious footprints of the likes of celebrity hypocrites Prince Harry and Leonardo DeCaprio and the fans they spawn who try to emulate their lifestyles.  Am so glad that Greta Thurnberg has starting stepping on their toes regarding the extensive enviornmental damages of the clothing industry.  I worried several years ago that she was schmoozing with that crowd.

I'm also disheartened about the scams of the carbon offset companies.  Some are legit, some are taking donations for timber industry planting they were already commercially engaged in ...some are downright stealing donations and doing nothing.  There is no oversight for these businesses and many provide a false sense meaningful philanthropy to 'offset' the excesses of people that donate to them.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I would point out that the last ice age ended 10,000 years ago and the earth began to warm up. Think about that. Did the small campfires of pre-historic man cause that warming trend ? Not bloody likely.


It may have, that is the basis of the Ruddiman hypothesis which has gained some acceptance, and I think makes some sense.  Worth considering anyway.  Ruddiman suggests that without human induced global warming we'd have been in an ice age for the past 5,000 years or so.

A good Scientific American article:

http://w2agz.com/Library/Climate Change/Ruddiman, March 2005, 16207527.pdf


----------



## Lewkat (Oct 1, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Just suppose, "for the sakes of argument" you are wrong, and someone else just might be on the money, "What then" would you suggest, were you ruler of the whole world, not just your own?
> "One child policy across the globe"?
> "Folks changing habits enough to at least have a go at reducing carbon emissions"?
> 
> We're only supposing here because as you can see from the thread title and my account of my own situation, "climate change" (real or imaginary?), isn't filling up too much of my head space right now!


What has this to do with his comment?


----------



## oldpop (Oct 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It may have, that is the basis of the Ruddiman hypothesis which has gained some acceptance, and I think makes some sense.  Worth considering anyway.  Ruddiman suggests that without human induced global warming we'd have been in an ice age for the past 5,000 years or so.
> 
> A good Scientific American article:
> 
> http://w2agz.com/Library/Climate Change/Ruddiman, March 2005, 16207527.pdf


Interesting


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> What has this to do with his comment?


Nowt, (only that anyone can"suppose" something, regardless how they feel about the subject!).


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

oldpop said:


> Interesting


Here's an "off the wall" suggestion you may find interesting, (what we're looking for here of course!), hows about folks stop using so many products to keep them smelling sweeter than a rose, and just rely on good old soap and water, as mankind did for millennia?

We may all feel good when wearing the latest parfum, but if they take eons to breakdown in the water courses or sea, time to call a halt surely(?).

All in favour say "Aye"!

(btw you may have heard the saying, "Live more simply so that others can simply live" - that's our motto or mantra, to be slipped into every conversation if possible, as per:

Social discourse question: "How are you today"?

Response: "Fine, living more simply every day"!


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 1, 2021)

grahamg said:


> folks stop using so many products to keep them smelling sweeter than a rose, and just rely on good old soap and water, as mankind did for millennia?


Pretty much what I have always done.  Use a little unscented deodorant from time to time, but otherwise only simple soap, Ivory.

Perhaps we should also return to using urine for mouthwash and to clean?  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Pretty much what I have always done.  Use a little unscented deodorant from time to time, but otherwise only simple soap, Ivory.
> Perhaps we should also return to using urine for mouthwash and to clean?  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...science-behind-historic-uses-of-urine-442390/


Anyone's urine or a fair maidens?


----------



## Lawrence00 (Oct 1, 2021)




----------



## Lawrence (Oct 1, 2021)

I believe that climate change is happening and is something for the well to do people to talk about. I also believe that there are people all over the world that are hungry and poor just looking for food, a place to live in, living in a existance that would be shorter than the effects of a climate change.


----------



## Granny B. (Oct 1, 2021)

spectratg said:


> For a comprehensive explanation, I would refer you to:    The Fermi Paradox - Wait But Why


Thanks a bunch for the link.  Fascinating ideas to ponder.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 1, 2021)

Lawrence00 said:


>


A comedian the right man to listen to when it comes to "saving endangered species" do you think?
A great man called Gerald Durrell, who set up Jersey zoo in the UK, and with his second wife Lee produced many television programmes about animals, and he was the author of "My family and other animals", one of the first books my brother enjoyed reading, but I came to later, (the "Durells" being notable authors).

As you can see I greatly admired this guy, who helped reintroduce the "Round Island Skink", a lizard important in maintaining an ecosystem once the rats man had introduced were removed (/killed).

I gave up watching your comedian friend after he made his remarks about endangered species, but I don't doubt we'll all need comedians like him to keep us going, as we've so little in terms of practical ideas to really " save the planet", (should it be necessary, "or for arguments sake").


----------



## WheatenLover (Oct 2, 2021)

I am concerned about climate change for the people who will get hurt or die when things get really bad. I think it is the world's responsibility to do things now that will minimize its effects. Unfortunately, I suspect that if there is money to be made, this won't happen. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## StarSong (Oct 2, 2021)

Lawrence00 said:


>


George Carlin remains among my all time favorite comedians, but this was not among his better works.  To be fair, it was a 1992 bit. 
 When we know better, we do better. 

I'd guess he reconsidered some of his environmental positions over time - or would have if he hadn't died 13 years ago.


----------



## CarolfromTX (Oct 5, 2021)

So if the ocean levels are rising precipitously, how come politicians are still buying ocean side homes? Is the climate changing? Sure. Just like it’s done forever. Not entirely sure my carbon footprint has anything to do with it.  We’re visiting Key West next week.  I’ll let you know if the locals are fleeing.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 5, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> So if the ocean levels are rising precipitously, how come politicians are still buying ocean side homes? Is the climate changing? Sure. Just like it’s done forever. Not entirely sure my carbon footprint has anything to do with it.  We’re visiting Key West next week.  I’ll let you know if the locals are fleeing.


One point of view obviously, (though I'd guess a slightly less than majority view worldwide nowadays,....?,).
That said, as the thread title and OP asserts I'm one who may take a different view to yours, but am inclined to do very little about it, as other aspects of my life seem to be crowding out thoughts of possible man made global warming, and this is therefore an indictment of someone like me, over anything you might be guilty of, (such as disdain for those like my late father, who saw signs migratory birds were arriving on his farm earlier than they used to when he was a boy, when he was aged eighty, twenty years ago, and this convinced him people like you were wrong!).


----------



## Don M. (Oct 5, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> So if the ocean levels are rising precipitously, how come politicians are still buying ocean side homes? Is the climate changing? Sure. Just like it’s done forever. Not entirely sure my carbon footprint has anything to do with it.  We’re visiting Key West next week.  I’ll let you know if the locals are fleeing.



Sure, the change, from year to year, is almost unnoticeable.  However, come back in another 100+ years, and half the world's low lying coastal areas may be flooded.  It has taken centuries for the climate to warm to the point where it is becoming a threat....and if human activity were to suddenly cease, it would take centuries to reverse this trend.  I doubt seriously that anything of significance will be done in time to make any real difference.


----------



## CarolfromTX (Oct 5, 2021)

Again, the climate is changing,  maybe, because that is what climate does. It has always changed. I seriously doubt man has much impact.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 5, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Again, the climate is changing,  maybe, because that is what climate does. It has always changed. I seriously doubt man has much impact.


I hope you don't mind my saying this, but on this thread we've discovered your views on climate change already, very succinctly put too, so why the need to repeat them without adding anything to the discussion in doing so, (or giving reasons why you might believe you know better, than as I've said my own father, or a host of others?)?


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 5, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Again, the climate is changing, maybe, because that is what climate does.


Absolutely, the climate would be changing with or without us.  The earth's climate has never been stable.


CarolfromTX said:


> I seriously doubt man has much impact.


I disagree, and so do most climate scientists.  The earth is warmer as the result of our impacts.  Exactly how much is not quite as clear.  And forecasting the future is even harder.

The problem comes in figuring what, if anything, we could or should do about it.  I am skeptical that we can change much, in my case just getting ready for it.  I sold my waterfront home in Florida, in part, because of my concerns over rising sea level, so at least one person has... 

I think most of the proposals put forward by our politicians are more about grandstanding than any real understanding of the problem.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 6, 2021)

The ice on Greenland and Antarctica is melting at an increasing pace.  If Greenland became ice free, it would raise the oceans by 20 feet....a total melt of Antarctica would cause an ocean rise of over 200 ft.  Were such events to occur, the US would lose 17% of its land mass....primarily along the Gulf and East coasts.  This would displace over 100 million people, and inundate trillions of dollars worth of property.  

None of us alive today will see such a disaster, but those living in future centuries may be in a different world.  

This rise in global temperatures has begun with the "industrial revolution", and is continuing to increase as the population expands, and more pollutants are released into the atmosphere.  Combine that with "normal" changes in the Earths warming and cooling cycles, and the future does not look very good for future generations.


----------



## oldpop (Oct 6, 2021)

An interesting FYI.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...ason-on-record-an-anomaly-in-a-warming-world/


----------



## Buckeye (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm at 90' above sea level, and I'm 75 years old.  I think I'm good.


----------



## Daytona Al (Oct 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Now I've deliberately chosen a provocative title here, but the critical element implied or stated, ("can't be bothered?"), I'm really saying as a way of criticising myself!!!!
> 
> Its just too easy to put your hands up and say or think, "What can I/We do"? (either because the whole issue seems too big to think about right now, or else other troubles in my life are crowding out thinking about such a fundamental issue).


Since I probably have less than two decades left on the planet, I can see clearly that modern life is unsustainable. We can't continue with the current (and growing) population without excessively using fossil fuels. Populations survive on food that is grown thousands of miles away. This supply chain requires huge numbers of trucks and trains, which eat fossil fuel. Theses giant carriers cannot simply be switched over to solar power.  Our food is grown with fossil fuel powered machines. We in America take the availability of food for examples but a quick look at labels tells you how far it traveled to reach your table. 

Even if you do nothing about global warming, it's clear that this distribution model cannot go on forever. In the old days towns were in the center of agricultural areas to provide food. Many conqueror took a city by separating it form the farms and starving it out.  Those were towns of hundreds residents. Today we have built cities with millions of residents, depending on a global supply chain. Any interruption in the flow of fossil fuel and we have urban famine. 

I wish that I saw a workable solution for this problem. I don't think that anybody does. We are overpopulated and over-urbanized.  I can't see how it is possible to stop climate change given this reality. Worse, I don't see how this reality can be sustained. 

Of course, there could be the Star Trek models of replicators and transporters. But somehow that seems to far in the realm of science fiction.


----------



## Daytona Al (Oct 6, 2021)

Don M. said:


> The "emphasis" seems to be on Fossil Fuels.  However, with the increasing global droughts, the Forest Fires are probably releasing more "pollutants" into the atmosphere than all the cars, trucks, power plants, etc., combined.  Then add in the millions of tons of Methane that are locked into the Permafrost, and ocean depths...which are being released increasingly into the air, and I seriously doubt that Anything can be done to reverse these conditions.  Increased "regulations" will only drive consumer prices substantially higher, and make life miserable for millions.
> 
> Those living in coastal areas, only a few feet above current sea levels, are living on borrowed time.  Those living in drought prone areas, surrounded by drying/flammable vegetation, are just one lightning strike away from losing everything.


I agree. The political will to tackle the problem (in even the smallest way) is not there.  When prices start doubling the population will vote in a less green candidate.  This week, we have seen what happened in the UK with reduction of long haul trucks. The government immediately moved to get them back on the road. This same government is making long range promises to severely reduce fossil fuel usage. But of course, all of those truck are running on fossil fuel. Do you see the contradiction?


----------



## Daytona Al (Oct 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Can you stretch your imagination to come up with one "earth shattering" big idea, (don't worry whether anyone would go along with it at this stage, as I didn't in post 6 above)?


Dramatic reduction of the human population is the only way out really. Otherwise it is a time bopmb.


----------



## Irwin (Oct 6, 2021)

Daytona Al said:


> I agree. The political will to tackle the problem (in even the smallest way) is not there.  When prices start doubling the population will vote in a less green candidate.  This week, we have seen what happened in the UK with reduction of long haul trucks. The government immediately moved to get them back on the road. This same government is making long range promises to severely reduce fossil fuel usage. But of course, all of those truck are running on fossil fuel. Do you see the contradiction?


Trains and trucks can be powered by electric motors and batteries charged with power generated by clean energy sources such as wind and solar power. In the near future, electric vehicles will be cheaper to operate than those run on fossil fuel. It's just a matter of a few years before the price of batteries is low enough and charging of them is fast enough to make fossil fuel powered vehicles obsolete.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 6, 2021)

Irwin said:


> The primary contributor to greenhouse gasses is the burning of fossil fuels, and we're slowly being weened off them with the advancement of electric vehicles. Soon, EVs will be ubiquitous, despite the fact that politicians in the pocket of big oil are doing everything they can to stop that from happening. The bare minimum they should do is to let it happen on its own instead of putting up barriers. It can happen more quickly with tax incentives and money for development.
> 
> Personally, I try to recycle everything I use that can be recycled. What really pisses me off is, every time there's a disaster, the government ships in pallets full of bottled water, which is a huge amount of plastic waste. Why can't they fly in large water storage tanks and pass out gallon containers instead?



So what are you going to do about the big problem, which is coal-fired plants used to generate electricity in China and India?  Last year alone, China brought something like 184 new coal fired plants online.  The West is working hard to decarbonize but these countries are increasing, not decreasing, their carbon emissions.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 6, 2021)

I believe in climate change.  I don't believe in most of the solutions offered up by climate activists.  We're stuck with fossil fuels for a while and it's going to take a long time (longer than 2050) to make the transition to renewables.  And no one is really tackling other issues, including deforestation of the Amazon in Brazil.


----------



## Irwin (Oct 6, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> So what are you going to do about the big problem, which is coal-fired plants used to generate electricity in China and India?  Last year alone, China brought something like 184 new coal fired plants online.  The West is working hard to decarbonize but these countries are increasing, not decreasing, their carbon emissions.


We need to get our own house in order before we can tell other countries what to do. Otherwise, we're hypocrites. But once that happens, we can impose sanctions on countries that act irresponsibility.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 6, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I believe in climate change. I don't believe in most of the solutions offered up by climate activists. We're stuck with fossil fuels for a while and it's going to take a long time (longer than 2050) to make the transition to renewables. And no one is really tackling other issues, including deforestation of the Amazon in Brazil.


Well said!!

And how can we do much about deforestation in the Amazon or elsewhere.  We have greatly deforested our own county, kind of hypocritical to ask others to do what we preach not what we do.  Same problem with fossil fuel usage, we have long had things like air conditioning and hot water, big power users.  How can we now ask the folks in China or India to do without them.  Not that they would listen if we did...

One thing that could make a lot more difference than solar or wind is nuclear.  Don't hear folks talk about that much!


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 6, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Well said!!
> 
> And how can we do much about deforestation in the Amazon or elsewhere.  We have greatly deforested our own county, kind of hypocritical to ask others to do what we preach not what we do.  Same problem with fossil fuel usage, we have long had things like air conditioning and hot water, big power users.  How can we now ask the folks in China or India to do without them.  Not that they would listen if we did...
> 
> One thing that could make a lot more difference than solar or wind is nuclear.  Don't hear folks talk about that much!



So true about nuclear.  Natural gas is a lot cleaner than coal, as well.  And a lot of what "the West" talks about contravenes the desires of people in China and India to have basic needs met, just as you said.  It's a complex problem, and solving it takes a lot more than yelling about "going green."


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 6, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We need to get our own house in order before we can tell other countries what to do. Otherwise, we're hypocrites. But once that happens, we can impose sanctions on countries that act irresponsibility.




Our own house is in order in that our emissions are going down.  China's and India's are going up.  It has nothing to do with hypocrisy.


----------



## Irwin (Oct 6, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Well said!!
> 
> And how can we do much about deforestation in the Amazon or elsewhere.  We have greatly deforested our own county, kind of hypocritical to ask others to do what we preach not what we do.  Same problem with fossil fuel usage, we have long had things like air conditioning and hot water, big power users.  How can we now ask the folks in China or India to do without them.  Not that they would listen if we did...
> 
> One thing that could make a lot more difference than solar or wind is nuclear.  Don't hear folks talk about that much!


There's the whole NIMBY issue with nuclear power: Not in my backyard! And then how do we get rid of nuclear waste? We're to the point where we can safely shoot rockets into space, so we could get rid of it that way... just dump it in space. People are concerned about what would happen if there was an accident, though, even though that risk is miniscule.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 7, 2021)

I'm a bit of a Pessimist when it comes to people/nations doing anything that will substantially reduce the effects of Climate Change.  I think we are already at, or very near, the point where Any attempts to change our climate will have little effect.  We could spend decades and Trillions trying to transition to solar, wind, electric vehicles, etc., and wind up having little or no real effect on what is surely coming.  

Anything we can do toward reducing emissions will certainly be helpful, but unless we want to witness a major collapse of our economies, and societies, "outlawing" fossil fuels, anytime in the foreseeable future, is going to result in chaos.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> There's the whole NIMBY issue with nuclear power: Not in my backyard!


Yep, a big problem.


Irwin said:


> And then how do we get rid of nuclear waste?


There are solutions, but in one way or another all involve long-term storage in some disposal site.  They can be made safe, so long as we can do "perpetual" care.  We need the political will to do it more than the knowhow.  


Irwin said:


> what would happen if there was an accident, though, even though that risk is miniscule


Nuclear power is much safer from the accident perspective than any other power source we use.  It just feels terrifying to people.  Do you remember the bumper sticker "More people have died in the backseat of Teddy Kennedy's car than from nuclear power accidents"?  In the US that is still true.


Don M. said:


> Anything we can do toward reducing emissions will certainly be helpful, but unless we want to witness a major collapse of our economies, and societies, "outlawing" fossil fuels, anytime in the foreseeable future, is going to result in chaos.


I agree... except maybe for the helpful part.  I am not sure we will be able to reduce to the point of making much difference.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 16, 2021)

Anybody getting excited about COP 26?


----------



## grahamg (Oct 16, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Anybody getting excited about COP 26?


I listened to Prince William giving an interview about the forthcoming climate change summit in Glasgow.
Have to admit I didn't listen to all the radio broadcast, as much as I like and admire him, he didn't grab my attention like dear little Greta does on this subject unfortunately!


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 17, 2021)

COP26  will attract every form of terrorist, anarchist, communist, Eco warrior, God botherer, Flat Earth society nutcase, vegan, tree hugger etc..
They will be faced with thousand of police with tear gas, big sticks and savage dogs.  There will be thousands of delegates and tens of thousands of reporters.  The whole fiasco will cost the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds and what will the result be?   A load of broken promises and NO change at all. 

A total waste of time and money.  On the plus side, anyone who has accommodation to rent will make a small fortune,  If they're wise, they'll use this to move somewhere with better weather.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 17, 2021)

COP26 will likely turn out to be just another "publicity stunt" to make people think that governments may actually do something.  In reality, it would take several decades of virtually NO fossil fuel use to reverse what we are facing.  IF there was a sudden ban on fossil fuel use, society and global economics would collapse, and total chaos would reign.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 17, 2021)

Don M. said:


> COP26 will likely turn out to be just another "publicity stunt" to make people think that governments may actually do something.


I agree, I am always particularly skeptical of things like this coming out of the UN...


Don M. said:


> In reality, it would take several decades of virtually NO fossil fuel use to reverse what we are facing.


Yep, I believe we are way past that "tipping point" thing.


Don M. said:


> IF there was a sudden ban on fossil fuel use, society and global economics would collapse, and total chaos would reign.


Absolutely, the only predictable effect of banning fossil fuels, but I don't think we have to worry, it just ain't happening.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 17, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> COP26  will attract every form of terrorist, anarchist, communist, Eco warrior, God botherer, Flat Earth society nutcase, vegan, tree hugger etc..
> They will be faced with thousand of police with tear gas, big sticks and savage dogs.  There will be thousands of delegates and tens of thousands of reporters.  The whole fiasco will cost the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds and what will the result be?   A load of broken promises and NO change at all.
> A total waste of time and money.  On the plus side, anyone who has accommodation to rent will make a small fortune,  If they're wise, they'll use this to move somewhere with better weather.


A bit pessimistic then,.............., looking on the bright side if anything sensible does come out of it you'll be surprised and that will be a plus to both yourself and maybe the planet, (though I dont mean to indicate I contradict you by my flippancy!).


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We need to get our own house in order before we can tell other countries what to do. Otherwise, we're hypocrites. But once that happens, we can impose sanctions on countries that act irresponsibility.


I agree. I also think the concept of nations swapping  environmental credits is just a scheme to keep on using pollution producing fuels.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> if anything sensible does come out of it you'll be surprised


Absolutely!


fuzzybuddy said:


> think the concept of nations swapping environmental credits is just a scheme to keep on using pollution producing fuels.


And make lots of money for a bunch of people who will created or contribute nothing good...


----------



## grahamg (Oct 17, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Absolutely!
> And make lots of money for a bunch of people who will created or contribute nothing good...


Its all very well us all coming out with cynical and pessimistic viewpoints, (and I'm as bad as anyone), but unless we've got better ideas maybe we'd best keep quiet and listen to those with more knowledge, more future to worry about, and ultimately those who don't dismiss mankind's chances of survival so easily!


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 17, 2021)

Graham, I think that in this case being cynical and pessimistic = being realistic.    The weather forecast can't even get tomorrow's weather correct, so I have very little confidence in what the gloom and doom merchants are telling us.   I also think too many of these 'doomsday prophets' happily ignore the improvements that have been made already.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Its all very well us all coming out with cynical and pessimistic viewpoints


I believe there are things we can do, primarily understand as much about climate change as we can and get ready for it.  

If we stumble into something along the way that we can do that realistically will work that would be great.  I just don't think we should plan on it.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 17, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I believe there are things we can do, primarily understand as much about climate change as we can and get ready for it.
> If we stumble into something along the way that we can do that realistically will work that would be great.  I just don't think we should plan on it.


I believe mankind, (our human nature I mean), has a tendency for "risk taking", and this plays a part in our blaise attitude to a threat likely to become much worse during the lifetime of our children, (you know "those we're supposed to care about more than life itself, and only desire to act in their interests"!).
However, it is just possible common ground can be found between the leadership of nations who cannot often agree, and whose political systems couldn't be more different. All peoples I suspect desire hope for our futures, and even the most sceptical on this forum, if put on the rack and forced to reveal their inner most thoughts, would probably admit they're the same!!


----------



## Irwin (Oct 17, 2021)

Here's an interesting tidbit of information:

The global aviation industry produces around 2% of all human-induced carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. Aviation is responsible for 12% of CO2 emissions from all transports sources, compared to 74% from road transport.​https://www.atag.org/facts-figures.html​
Nearly all other advanced nations have embraced electric high-speed rail transportation which is far more environmentally friendly than jet airliners since electricity can be generated by clean energy sources. Here in the U.S., we don't have any high-speed rail. Airlines have a lot of political influence and the politicians they've bought won't allow it. While it's a bit hypocritical for us to criticize any other country for not doing their part, they have to understand that it's nothing personal; it's all about corporate profits. Who cares if we're destroying the planet? Money makes the world go round.

But at least we're gradually moving towards e-vehicles and more efficient gasoline vehicles. Our 2013 SUV gets better gas mileage than our 2000 sedan, even though it's bigger and heavier.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 18, 2021)

Some signs the prospects for COP26 may not be improving, (reports in the UK suggest the US administration won't be able to get the changes they wish through congress).

Still, we don't care do we,..., "to hell on a handcart" hey!


----------



## Irwin (Oct 18, 2021)

Climate change is a big conspiracy theory!

(Don't mind me, I'm a sociopath.)


----------



## grahamg (Oct 18, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Climate change is a big conspiracy theory!
> (Don't mind me, I'm a sociopath.)


I hope those world leaders gathering in Glasgow next month get to hear a few funny comments such as yours, to "put them in the mood" for agreeing to something vaguely useful, (like maybe not going to war with one another). 

This was something the late great broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan said about WWII,..., "none of it was good for the environment", a subtle comment putting into some kind of context the threats the world faces!


----------



## Tom 86 (Oct 19, 2021)

Daytona Al said:


> I agree. The political will to tackle the problem (in even the smallest way) is not there.  When prices start doubling the population will vote in a less green candidate.  This week, we have seen what happened in the UK with reduction of long haul trucks. The government immediately moved to get them back on the road. This same government is making long range promises to severely reduce fossil fuel usage. But of course, all of those truck are running on fossil fuel. Do you see the contradiction?


True,  They are making electric cars & trucks. Say good for the environment?  Ok, now they have to get the power to charge those vehicles somewhere.  Most are coal, gas, or Nuclear power plants.  

  They just said on the news here this morning they are taking a 20,000-acre farm in northern In. to put up a solar farm. Right, where we get a lot of snow & in the winter 75% clouds.  So won't get much power from them.   The next thing is we are taking 20,000 acres out of farm production.  Pretty soon there will be no land to grow crops on to feed us. 

  I'm 86 & I won't be around that long to see how this works out.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 19, 2021)

"Maybe best not to be around to see how this thing works out"(?).

(at my school they repeatedly told us mankind would destroy itself by 2050, so that was pretty pessimistic wasnt it!)


----------



## Daytona Al (Oct 20, 2021)

grahamg said:


> "Maybe best not to be around to see how this thing works out"(?).
> 
> (at my school they repeatedly told us mankind would destroy itself by 2050, so that was pretty pessimistic wasnt it!)


----------



## Daytona Al (Oct 20, 2021)

Maybe I'm unenlightend, but I don't see how the current population is sustainable. We have finite energy and finite phosphate for fertilizers. Populations are entirely separated for food supplies. At some point, we simply run out of resources.  Solar and wind power will not plow fields or run Semi Trucks to deliver food. We can slow this down with green technology, it doesn't stop the reality that we are planning a future based on finite resources.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 20, 2021)

Daytona Al said:


> Maybe I'm unenlightend, but I don't see how the current population is sustainable. We have finite energy and finite phosphate for fertilizers. Populations are entirely separated for food supplies. At some point, we simply run out of resources.  Solar and wind power will not plow fields or run Semi Trucks to deliver food. We can slow this down with green technology, it doesn't stop the reality that we are planning a future based on finite resources.


A German Christian, (called "Christian" coincidentally), said exactly the same thing thirty or forty years ago, at a churches conference looking at longterm issues likely to affect humans and our planet!
He pointed to the moral failure inherent in using up the world's resources as though they were infinite, in order to create economic growth etc.!


----------



## Harry Le Hermit (Oct 20, 2021)

There seems to be near total disconnect with what the COP proponents believe they are accomplishing or about to accomplish...
Climate crisis: Why do we need COP anyway?
and what their governments back home are actually planning...
Planned fossil fuel output double that of Paris deal goals, says UN
Then there is the current rush back into coal. Not sure how it is possible to be optimistic.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 20, 2021)

A generation supposedly obsessed with taking pictures of themselves, or "selfies" and pursuing "bucket lists", "following their dreams", don't maybe give rise to much cause for optimism either, (if its true what's been said about them?)!
"We'll see hey", (though if the worst predicted outcomes occur, there will be no doubt who was to blame!).


----------



## squatting dog (Oct 21, 2021)

I'm have to chuckle when people talking climate change refer to the internal combustion engine as the be all, end all problem. None of them ever take the time to research exactly all that is made from oil. Try just about everything in our existence.  Sure, gas and diesel are always mentioned, but, what about all your plastic's? Not much today that doesn't have some plastic in it. Can these people live without their phones, plumbing, planes, trains, containers, appliances, precious solar panels, batteries, wiring, body panels etc for those electric vehicles?  Hell no... it's only cars that are the problem.


----------



## squatting dog (Oct 21, 2021)

A follow up. Can someone here tell me one thing they have that doesn't have oil in it's dna so to speak?


----------



## Harry Le Hermit (Oct 21, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> I'm have to chuckle when people talking climate change refer to the internal combustion engine as the be all, end all problem. None of them ever take the time to research exactly all that is made from oil. Try just about everything in our existence.  Sure, gas and diesel are always mentioned, but, what about all your plastic's? Not much today that doesn't have some plastic in it. Can these people live without their phones, plumbing, planes, trains, containers, appliances, precious solar panels, batteries, wiring, body panels etc for those electric vehicles?  Hell no... it's only cars that are the problem.


The issue with gasoline internal combustion engines is efficiency. Depending on the engine, usage, manner of usage, the energy in gasoline being utilized is at best 35% and normally in the 25% range. Diesel is better at 40%. The rest is pollution into the atmosphere.

Thus climate change can be better served with more efficient energy usage.

As for plastics... that is a ground, water and sea pollution issue and should be treated separately from climate change issues.

Plant based "plastics" (bioplastics) are now being developed, with much shorter bio degradable life spans than petroleum, even in some cases in months.


----------



## squatting dog (Oct 21, 2021)

Harry Le Hermit said:


> The issue with gasoline internal combustion engines is efficiency. Depending on the engine, usage, manner of usage, the energy in gasoline being utilized is at best 35% and normally in the 25% range. Diesel is better at 40%. The rest is pollution into the atmosphere.
> 
> Thus climate change can be better served with more efficient energy usage.
> 
> ...


You are correct about the efficiency of internal combustion engines. I feel there should be more emphasis toward making them more efficient than just trying to rid the world of them. Plastics, now that's a whole other ball game. I agree that plant based is still somewhere in the far away future. Maybe more so if corporate has there way. Did you know that today's   Plant-based plastic is a type of bioplastic that is created from agricultural scraps, often from corn, sugarcane, wheat or food waste. The term ‘plant-based’ refers to the source of the material itself, *not* how the resulting plastic will behave after it’s been thrown away.

But, there’s a catch! Only 20% of the ingredients need to be from renewable, organic materials in order for a plastic to be labelled ‘plant-based’. This means the resulting plastic could still be non-biodegradable and be made from up to 80% fossil fuels!  

_Not so green after all…_


----------



## Harry Le Hermit (Oct 21, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> I agree that plant based is still somewhere in the far away future.


It can be done now.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 21, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> A follow up. Can someone here tell me one thing they have that doesn't have oil in it's dna so to speak?


I know, I know, these days I find it hard to think about, but I believe I do know what you mean, (we're swamped by and addicted to plastic aren't we!).
Maybe a musical interlude will help:


----------



## Shero (Oct 21, 2021)

Oh yes Graham, thousands can be bothered. We must listen to them!


----------



## grahamg (Oct 21, 2021)

Shero said:


> Oh yes Graham, thousands can be bothered. We must listen to them!


Joni might have topped her on the vocals by a margin, but on enthusiasm and panache this little hero tips the scales back a bit! 
(thanks for reminding us)


----------



## Alizerine (Oct 22, 2021)

Nathan said:


> "What can I/We do"?   Well for starters we can support politicians that are interested in finding solutions, rather than electing those that want to use deception and denial, in order to protect their fossil fuel stocks.


Before we can count on well intended politicians we must find a way to insure that our vote counts. First we need to be able to vote and then those votes need to be counted and not dismissed through some new state laws. Yes I'm worried.


----------



## Alizerine (Oct 22, 2021)

Alizerine said:


> Before we can count on well intended politicians we must find a way to insure that our vote counts. First we need to be able to vote and then those votes need to be counted and not dismissed through some new state laws. Yes I'm worried.


well intentioned


----------



## grahamg (Oct 24, 2021)

Alizerine said:


> well intentioned


I witnessed an unexpected aspect of fears about the environment in my local farm shop today, today when a lady and her two grandchildren were busy picking items to purchase.

First the grandmother was laudably trying to educate the ten/twelve year old boy and girl by telling them "to buy your vegetables locally, so there are less food miles", (virtue signaling I thought), and the two children kept trying to tell her to buy chocolate cake.

Then she placed all the items she'd chosen, plums, runner beans, pears, and so on, in the same bag all together, so when the farmer came to try to weigh the items he had to pick each one out from the mixed up bag full to place them on the scales, all the while the children wining about chocolate cake, and only to be told "I want doesn't get"!

Eventually all gets weighed, though not before she'd pointed out blemishes on two pears so the farmer has to change them for her, and she pays the £20 or so but she's not done yet, she has some more questions for him about some other foodstuff or other.

What a performance, and in the course of it everyone else waiting had lost the will to live, goodness knows what those kids were learning, to be just as big a pain as grandma perhaps, (they were nearly there already in my view, though they at least could grow out of it!).  

"I blame all this fuss about climate change myself", (one week from COP26  )


----------



## grahamg (Oct 24, 2021)

Latest from Greta:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59022846

"*Climate activist Greta Thunberg has told the BBC that summits will not lead to action on climate goals unless the public demand change too.*
In a wide-ranging interview ahead of the COP26 climate summit, she said the public needed to "uproot the system".

"The change is going to come when people are demanding change. So we can't expect everything to happen at these conferences," she said.

She also accused politicians of coming up with excuses.

The COP26 climate summit is taking place in Scotland's largest city, Glasgow, from 31 October to 12 November.
It is the biggest climate change conference since landmark talks in Paris in 2015. Some 200 countries are being asked for their plans to cut greenhouse gas emissions, which cause global warming.

Ms Thunberg, who recently launched a global series of concerts highlighting climate change called Climate Live (Climate Live) confirmed she would be attending COP26. She said her message to world leaders was to "be honest".

"Be honest about where you are, how you have been failing, how you're still failing us... instead of trying to find solutions, real solutions that will actually lead somewhere, that would lead to a substantial change, fundamental change," she told the BBC's Rebecca Morelle.

"In my view, success would be that people finally start to realise the urgency of the situation and realise that we are facing an existential crisis, and that we are going to need big changes, that we're going to need to uproot the system, because that's where the change is going to come.""


----------



## Irwin (Oct 24, 2021)

Harry Le Hermit said:


> The issue with gasoline internal combustion engines is efficiency. Depending on the engine, usage, manner of usage, the energy in gasoline being utilized is at best 35% and normally in the 25% range. Diesel is better at 40%. The rest is pollution into the atmosphere.
> 
> Thus climate change can be better served with more efficient energy usage.
> 
> ...


While plastic waste is a separate issue, plastic production is a huge contributor to anthropogenic climate change.

Plastic pollution and climate change are not separate issues, but rather are closely linked in a variety of ways. According to researchers from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, plastic production and disposal resulted in 850 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions in 2019 and may be responsible for up to 2.8 billion tons by 2050. With numbers like these, it’s no secret that many solutions to the world’s plastic problem go hand-in-hand with solutions to the climate crisis.​https://www.earthday.org/solving-plastic-pollution-will-help-us-stop-climate-change/​


----------



## Harry Le Hermit (Oct 24, 2021)

Irwin said:


> a huge contributor to anthropogenic climate change.


2% of current emissions. Contributor... yes. Plant based or bioplastics will become widespread. Adapting the bioplastics production to renewable energy is the key.


----------



## mellowyellow (Oct 24, 2021)

We can’t deny the climate is changing but it’s the cause that makes me wonder, there have been many cycles of glacial advance and retreat in the past.  So I guess that means I'm a sceptic.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 24, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> We can’t deny the climate is changing but it’s the cause that makes me wonder, there have been many cycles of glacial advance and retreat in the past.  So I guess that means I'm a sceptic.


Let's forget the cause for now, as wondering about the cause for ever and a day won't do if you're wrong, and over reacting so far as reducing greenhouse gases won't be such a bad thing in comparison, should you have been right all along, (if you get my drift?)!


----------



## Irwin (Oct 24, 2021)

Nearly all actively publishing climate scientists (97–98%) support the consensus on anthropogenic climate change, and the remaining 2% of contrarian studies either cannot be replicated or contain errors. A 2019 study found scientific consensus to be at 100%, and a 2021 study found that consensus exceeded 99%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change

Some people just don't believe in science.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 25, 2021)

More of these dire warnings we're all largely choosing to ignore:


----------



## grahamg (Oct 25, 2021)

More on what we're all ignoring:

"The UN chief in a detailed reaction to the report, said that solutions were clear. "*Inclusive and green economies, prosperity, cleaner air and better health are possible for all, if we respond to this crisis with solidarity and courage*", he said.

He added that ahead of the crucial COP26 climate conference in Glasgow in November, all nations - especially the advanced G20 economies - needed to join the net zero emissions coaltion, and reinforce their promises on slowing down and reversing global heating, "with credible, concrete, and enhanced Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs)" that lay out detailed steps.

Human handiwork​The report, prepared by 234 scientists from 66 countries, highlights that human influence has warmed the climate at a rate that is unprecedented in at least the last 2,000 years.

In 2019, atmospheric CO2 concentrations were higher than at any time *in at least 2 million years*, and concentrations of methane and nitrous oxide were higher than at any time in the last 800,000 years.

Global surface temperature has increased faster since 1970 than in any other 50-year period over a least *the last 2,000 years*. For example, temperatures during the most recent decade (2011–2020) exceed those of the most recent multi-century warm period, *around 6,500 years ago*, the report indicates.

Meanwhile, global mean sea level has risen faster since 1900, than over any preceding century *in at least the last 3,000 years.*

The document shows that emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are responsible for approximately 1.1°C of warming between 1850-1900, and finds that averaged over the next 20 years, global temperature is expected to reach or exceed 1.5°C of heating."


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 26, 2021)

I'm getting sick and tired of this whole thing.  There's a lot of low level propaganda on TV with videos of young kids telling us what we should do.
In 10 or 20 years time, they will probably be getting married, wanting a new car, house, job   etc.. and above all, having a good time.
I wonder how 'green' they'll be then?

I think I'll  hibernate in my carbon intensive, meat eating world until this blows over and the speeches have been forgotten and the promises broken.  Then I'll go for a foreign holiday.


----------



## oldpop (Oct 26, 2021)

"I'm getting sick and tired of this whole thing"


From what I see and hear lately I don't think your the only one. Eventually the pressure cooker is going to blow it's lid......


----------



## rgp (Oct 26, 2021)

"I'm getting sick and tired of this whole thing"

   Exactly !! ............


----------



## grahamg (Oct 26, 2021)

rgp said:


> "I'm getting sick and tired of this whole thing"
> 
> Exactly !! ............


MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm, on this one my guess is, sick of it or no, there will be no getting away from the changes our government wish us all to follow, and maybe there is one very good reason to consider, and it is the need for *"hope"* in our lives, individually and collectively. 

I dont think mankind is going to be able to dispense with the need for a reasonable chance of survival on a planet something close as it can be to what we enjoy today. 

Our old, cynical, time worn attitudes wont do I feel, (I'm definitely no better than anyone else on this please note), compared to the great quest to make sure everything is done to preserve this planet, okay, so learn to live with this thing you're so sick of because it isn't going way soon!


----------



## mellowyellow (Oct 26, 2021)

"A new scientific study shows that for the first time they're finding polar bears that have actually drowned, swimming long distances, up to 60 miles to find the ice."


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 26, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> A new scientific study shows that for the first time they're finding polar bears that have actually drowned, swimming long distances


Not too surprising. Their habitat is melting...


----------



## Shero (Oct 26, 2021)

grahamg said:


> MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm, on this one my guess is, sick of it or no, there will be no getting away from the changes our government wish us all to follow, and maybe there is one very good reason to consider, and it is the need for *"hope"* in our lives, individually and collectively.
> 
> I dont think mankind is going to be able to dispense with the need for a reasonable chance of survival on a planet something close as it can be to what we enjoy today.
> 
> Our old, cynical, time worn attitudes wont do I feel, (I'm definitely no better than anyone else on this please note), compared to the great quest to make sure everything is done to preserve this planet, okay, so learn to live with this thing you're so sick of because it isn't going way soon!


.
Graham, Maybe we should take the advice of BoJo (your PM) and use refillable toothpaste tubes and allow animals to eat humans


----------



## grahamg (Oct 26, 2021)

Shero said:


> .
> Graham, Maybe we should take the advice of BoJo (your PM) and use refillable toothpaste tubes and allow animals to eat humans


Really??????
(you had me going there!  . )


----------



## Shero (Oct 26, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Really??????
> (you had me going there!  . )



I think he's a cute teddy bear!


----------



## grahamg (Oct 26, 2021)

Shero said:


> I think he's a cute teddy bear!


He may go down in history as you describe him too, (careful on forum rule No. 1 btw!).


----------



## Shero (Oct 26, 2021)

grahamg said:


> He may go down in history as you describe him too, (careful on forum rule No. 1 btw!).


I am a bit lost. Which rule is forum rule No. 1 ?


----------



## grahamg (Oct 26, 2021)

Shero said:


> I am a bit lost. Which rule is forum rule No. 1 ?


It may be rules No. 2, 3, or 4, however, you can go to the back of the class and put the dunce's hat on for not remembering rules at all young lady!


----------



## Shero (Oct 27, 2021)

grahamg said:


> It may be rules No. 2, 3, or 4, however, you can go to the back of the class and put the dunce's hat on for not remembering rules at all young lady!


.
Realise I am still a new arrival having landed middle August, but to my knowledge have never broken a rule or even attempted to, so still have no clue what you mean and I am not going to fret about it


----------



## Pepper (Oct 27, 2021)

@Shero 
The first rule is No Politics.  Hard Not to break.  Some might say impossible.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 27, 2021)

Pepper said:


> @Shero
> The first rule is No Politics.  Hard Not to break.  Some might say impossible.


On this forum respect for the rule is as near to 100% as anyone could expect, so that's impressive, (apologies to Shero btw, for not remembering how new you are, or realising your pretty innocuous post wasn't worth questioning in any event!).


----------



## Tom 86 (Oct 27, 2021)

God makes the weather.  We ruin it for him.


----------



## David777 (Oct 27, 2021)

Astrobiologists would relate that it has been highly unlikely evolving multicellular life managed to survive over the past billion years of our planet's 4 billion year old existence.  For a list of reasons it could have ended as there are delicate balances of incredibly complex chemical feedback systems.  Not only are we overpopulated Earth monkeys harming our atmosphere but also its immensely complex mix of organic DNA life.

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/earth-system/biogeochemical-cycles


----------



## grahamg (Oct 28, 2021)

From the BBC website on the COP26 meeting:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56901261

*What will be decided at COP26?*
Most countries will set out their plans to reduce emissions before the summit starts - so, we should get a sense of whether we are on track beforehand.
But during the two weeks we can expect a flurry of new announcements.
Many are expected to be very technical - including rules still needed to implement the Paris Agreement, for example.
But some other announcements could include:

Making a faster switch to electric cars
Speeding up the phasing out of coal power
Cutting down fewer trees
Protecting more people from the impacts of climate change, such as funding coastal-defence systems.
Up to 25,000 people are expected in Glasgow, including world leaders, negotiators and journalists.
Tens of thousands of campaigners and businesses will also be there to hold events, network and hold protests. Extinction Rebellion, for example, are calling for an immediate end to the use of fossil fuels.
At the end of the conference, some form of declaration is expected.
Every country will be required to sign up and it could include specific commitments.

Break

China's commitments at COP26 will also be very important. It is now the world's biggest polluter and has investments in coal stations all over the world.
Many observers will be watching how quickly China - and other major fossil fuel producers - will be willing to reduce their reliance on them.
How will COP26 affect me?​Some commitments made in Glasgow could directly affect our daily lives.
For example, it could change whether you drive a petrol car, heat your home with a gas boiler, or take as many flights.
You will hear a lot of jargon​
*COP26:* COP stands for Conference of the Parties. Established by the UN, COP1 took place in 1995 - this will be the 26th
*Paris accord:* The Paris Agreement united all the world's nations - for the first time - in a single agreement on tackling global warming and cutting greenhouse-gas emissions
*IPCC: *The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change examines the latest research into climate change
*1.5C: *Keeping the rise in global average temperature below 1.5C - compared with pre-industrial times - will avoid the worst impacts of climate change, scientists say
How will we know COP26 is a success?​As host nation, the UK will likely want all countries to back a strong statement that recommits to net zero emissions by 2050 - as well as big reductions by 2030.
It will also want specific pledges on ending coal, petrol cars and protecting nature.
Developing countries will want a significant financial package over the next five years, to help them adapt to rising temperatures.
Anything short of this is likely to be judged inadequate because there simply isn't more time to keep the 1.5C goal alive.
However, some scientists believe world leaders have left it too late and no matter what is agreed at COP26, 1.5C will not be achieved.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 28, 2021)

grahamg said:


> China's commitments at COP26 will also be very important. It is now the world's biggest polluter and has investments in coal stations all over the world.
> Many observers will be watching how quickly China - and other major fossil fuel producers - will be willing to reduce their reliance on them.


However, some scientists believe world leaders have left it too late and no matter what is agreed at COP26, 1.5C will not be achieved.

China and India are the world's largest "polluters", and getting them to initiate any meaningful changes is quite unlikely.  I suspect that when COP26 is over, it will prove to be little other than a lavish vacation, for the participants....at the taxpayers expense.


----------



## grahamg (Oct 28, 2021)

Don M. said:


> However, some scientists believe world leaders have left it too late and no matter what is agreed at COP26, 1.5C will not be achieved.
> China and India are the world's largest "polluters", and getting them to initiate any meaningful changes is quite unlikely.  I suspect that when COP26 is over, it will prove to be little other than a lavish vacation, for the participants....at the taxpayers expense.


You may be right, (though don't forget how many goods produced in those countries are bought and used or consumed in the west), but one thing we can be sure of is the leadership in a totalitarian, one party state can take whatever decision it believes is necessary, whereas we in the west maybe can't, (or are "shy" on this subject for whatever reason!).


----------



## Daytona Al (Nov 3, 2021)

Harry Le Hermit said:


> There seems to be near total disconnect with what the COP proponents believe they are accomplishing or about to accomplish...
> Climate crisis: Why do we need COP anyway?
> and what their governments back home are actually planning...
> Planned fossil fuel output double that of Paris deal goals, says UN
> Then there is the current rush back into coal. Not sure how it is possible to be optimistic.


Even if the west achieved their goals (which is nearly impossible), China is opening more coal fired plants. We are currently seeing the immense public reaction to increasing fossil fuel prices. Democracies will not find the common will to make their promises into realities. Unless there is a spectacular new source of cheap energy, I don't see how any of this works.  

If we are realistic, the funds that are not going into fighting Climate Change should be channeled into energy innovations. I don't know what those would be, but we didn't know what electricity was 200 years ago. We can only innovate our way out of this thing and, of course, we must cut populations.


----------



## Daytona Al (Nov 3, 2021)

grahamg said:


> A German Christian, (called "Christian" coincidentally), said exactly the same thing thirty or forty years ago, at a churches conference looking at longterm issues likely to affect humans and our planet!
> He pointed to the moral failure inherent in using up the world's resources as though they were infinite, in order to create economic growth etc.!


Exactly, a major "solution" to Climate Change is a shift to natural gas. But that only kicks the can down the road. We must find a way of generating electricity and powering vehicles that it renewable. Otherwise, our society cannot be sustained. Why does no one see this. We are panicking about rising oceans, when we should be worrying about species survival.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 4, 2021)

Daytona Al said:


> Exactly, a major "solution" to Climate Change is a shift to natural gas. But that only kicks the can down the road. We must find a way of generating electricity and powering vehicles that it renewable. Otherwise, our society cannot be sustained. Why does no one see this. *We are panicking about rising oceans, when we should be worrying about species survival.*


This is all intertwined. 

Rising oceans are a very real result of climate change. Same with "100 year" droughts, flooding, super storms, high and low temperatures that are now breaking records every few years. As areas become unlivable, human migration will put increasing pressure on the places to which these folks migrate. 

It's going to get very ugly, I fear.


----------



## Irwin (Nov 4, 2021)

StarSong said:


> This is all intertwined.
> 
> Rising oceans are a very real result of climate change. Same with "100 year" droughts, flooding, super storms, high and low temperatures that are now breaking records every few years. As areas become unlivable, human migration will put increasing pressure on the places to which these folks migrate.
> 
> It's going to get very ugly, I fear.


Yep, climate change is already creating climate refugees — people whose land is no longer habitable due to droughts, flooding, windstorms, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. And a lot of them will be resented when they migrate to other areas, and most of that resentment will come from people who refuse to recognize man's role in creating climate change. Add the migrants to the refugee crises caused by our idiotic wars.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 4, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Yep, climate change is already creating climate refugees — people whose land is no longer habitable due to droughts, flooding, windstorms, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. And a lot of them will be resented when they migrate to other areas, and most of that resentment will come from people who refuse to recognize man's role in creating climate change. Add the migrants to the refugee crises caused by our idiotic wars.


Every word you wrote is absolutely true.


----------



## David777 (Nov 4, 2021)

Nothing is likely to change due to the stranglehold of dominant short sighted wealthy and wealth seakers dominating power with ever increasing infrastructure and overpopulation.  As the effects of climate change grow towards seriously irreversibly damaging life on our planet, very sadly, those using CRISPR technology on viruses may at some point...


----------



## grahamg (Nov 4, 2021)

Meanwhile, back at the COP26 gathering in the fair city of Glasgow it appears progress is somewhat limited, or faltering, with a lack of unaminity as yet, (in contrast with the previous accords its being reported).
Maybe we're on the wrong track somewhere, but who really knows(?).


----------



## Capt Lightning (Nov 5, 2021)

Seems like the schoolkids are having a protest today - well it's an excuse for taking a day off.  I wonder how many of them will, in 10 years time, be married, wanting a well paid job, their own house, car, foreign holidays etc...  and have forgotten all about their teenage 'principles'.


----------



## grahamg (Nov 5, 2021)

Greta says COP26 a failure, (so far anyway, its about halfway through)!


----------



## grahamg (Nov 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Greta says COP26 a failure, (so far anyway, its about halfway through)!


What some unkind people are saying about her, (I vaguely know the person who reposted this on another site btw):


----------



## grahamg (Nov 6, 2021)

An update as to what is going on in Glasgow:

*Day 7:  Sticking points and nature-based solutions*​The state of play​The sunny skies prevailing during the first week of COP26 gave way to a deluge of rain as negotiators struggled to complete a first draft of an outcome document. There was no clear indication of where talks will lead or how ambitious countries will be in tackling the climate emergency. Ministers arriving early next week will seek to resolve points of contention, with COP26 President Alok Sharma calling this “where the rubber hits the road”. The aim is to conclude with agreement on greater emission cuts, stronger efforts on adaptation and resilience, and more climate finance. 

Many issues must still be worked out. With progress so far being insufficient to limit global temperature rise to 1.5°C, there is a strong call for countries to update nation climate plans more regularly, even annually. Many countries are pushing for eliminating fossil fuel subsidies and phasing out coal-fired power plants.

Negotiations are proceeding on boosting measures for climate adaptation and resilience as well as “loss and damage” compensation for those harmed by climate change. Also under negotiation are contentious provisions on finance, trade and transparency. 



Finding solutions in nature​Discussions on Day 7 focused on so-called nature-based solutions that could reduce total greenhouse gas emissions by about a third, particularly through sustainable agriculture and halting deforestation. “Nature-based solutions are absolutely critical,” said UN Environment Programme Chief Inger Andersen. “When we protect nature, nature provides security for us. It gives us the water we drink, the food we eat and the air we breathe.” 

The convergence of solutions that cover both the climate and biodiversity crises caused the chief of the Global Environment Facility, Carlos Manuel Rodriguez, to tweet that “I no longer know whether I am at a @UNBiodiversity or @UNFCCC COP, so we need to be extremely happy about what is happening at this COP."

The COP26 Presidency announced that 45 governments, led by the United Kingdom, will ramp up efforts to protect nature and shift to more sustainable farming. Over $4 billion in new public sector investment was pledged for agricultural innovation, including climate-resilient crops and regenerative solutions to improve soil health. This would help make such techniques affordable for hundreds of millions of farmers.

Canada announced CDN$1 billion in international support for nature-based solutions, a fifth of its climate finance. It supports an international target to protect 30 per cent of lands and oceans by 2030, and earlier this week announced it would back a fund for coral reefs.



More sustainable food systems​“The conversation around food needs to be really amplified,” said Idris Elba, a Goodwill Ambassador for the International Fund for Agricultural Development. “Small-scale farmers deliver 80 per cent of the food that we eat,” he added “And every year, the crops are lower because the rain is different, and the soil is different.” Climate change, population growth and poverty are increasing global food insecurity.

Vanessa Nakata, a climate justice activist from Uganda, recounted how “the climate crisis means hunger and death for many people in my country and across Africa.” Droughts, floods and landslides have taken many lives and destroyed homes and businesses. Farms have been washed away, and crops have been devastated by a scorching sun and invasions of locusts.  

“We cannot fix climate change unless we fix our food systems,” warned Agnes Kalibata, UN Food Systems Summit Special Envoy. Accounting for over one third of global greenhouse gas emissions, the modern food system needs to be transformed to be greener, fairer and more sustainable." 

https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/cop26


----------

