# A truly Unappetizing Nonce Term



## Big Horn (Oct 6, 2017)

I've read it twice in the past several days on this website, but I couldn't convince myself to use it in the title.  The term is_ mosh pit_.  A search gave me _moshing.  _The Wikipedia link describes an activity which goes beyond being conduct of the lowest social classes.  It's savagery.  

I was both surprised and disheartened that posters here would have ever heard the term, let alone use.  I'll never use it.  There are some things that should never be mentioned.there are over a million words in the English language.  There are plenty of pejoratives to describe this activity without resorting to the cant of the underclass.

For many years there was a commercial on the radio during the wee hours that began: "People judge us by the way we speak."  They do and they should.


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 6, 2017)

A _mosh pit _is what you get, when you combine loud Anarcho-punk music, with a crowd of people very high on drugs.


----------



## CeeCee (Oct 6, 2017)

Well I think I used that word in replying to a post by falcon, didn't realize it was an offensive word.  Ive heard it many times in the 80's and recently in the post I'm referencing.

I think there are many words that are more offensive.


----------



## hollydolly (Oct 6, 2017)

Well tbh...the word in your title is more offensive to me ...at least in the UK anyway ... the word ''Nonce'' mean paedophile... or deviant sex offender 

Mosh pit, here only means the area right in front of the stage where really physical dancing takes place...


----------



## CeeCee (Oct 6, 2017)

hollydolly said:


> Well tbh...the word in your title is more offensive to me ...at least in the UK anyway ... the word ''Nonce'' mean paedophile... or deviant sex offender
> 
> Mosh pit, here only means the area right in front of the stage where really physical dancing takes place...



Yes, Ive heard that about the word "nonce" also from someone in the UK.


----------



## SifuPhil (Oct 6, 2017)

I've never known anyone who took offense at the term "mosh pit". Congrats, Big Horn.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 6, 2017)

hollydolly said:


> Well tbh...the word in your title is more offensive to me ...at least in the UK anyway ... the word ''Nonce'' mean paedophile... or deviant sex offender.


  It's a frequently used term in this country.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonce


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2017)

Interesting topic. I have the same sensibilities as HollyDolly. I am aware of the same meaning of the word 'nonce' but have only heard the words 'mosh pit' used for the area in front of the stage at a rock concert. I might add that I have never been to a single rock concert in my life but self preservation instincts would prompt me to avoid this area. I will now try to find out the deeper meaning.

I have come to realise that words that are considered obscene or offensive in one culture may be calmly used in another. Also, even within the same culture, context is everything. There seems to be little rationality involved. For example the words poo, sh*t, faeces and turd all refer to the same thing but only one of them is considered coarse and offensive. Why? The only answer seems to be cultural.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Interesting topic. I have the same sensibilities as HollyDolly. I am aware of the same meaning of the word 'nonce' but have only heard the words 'mosh pit' used for the area in front of the stage at a rock concert. I might add that I have never been to a single rock concert in my life but self preservation instincts would prompt me to avoid this area. I will now try to find out the deeper meaning.
> 
> I have come to realise that words that are considered obscene or offensive in one culture may be calmly used in another. Also, even within the same culture, context is everything. There seems to be little rationality involved. For example the words poo, *sh*t,* faeces and *turd *all refer to the same thing but only one of them is considered coarse and offensive. Why? The only answer seems to be cultural.


Both are considered vulgar in this country.

We also write /realize/, not /realise/, /feces/, not /faeces/, and pedophile/, not /paedophile/.


----------



## SifuPhil (Oct 6, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> Both are considered vulgar in this country.



By whom?

I believe any discussion of vulgarity must take into account the background, education and social mores of the listener ...


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> Both are considered vulgar in this country.
> 
> We also write /realize/, not /realise/, /feces/, not /faeces/, and pedophile/, not /paedophile/.



:lol: I am also aware of the spelling differences.  I am sure you will learn to cope with my Antipodean idiosyncrasies.


----------



## Buckeye (Oct 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> :lol: I am also aware of the spelling differences.  I am sure you will learn to cope with my Antipodean idiosyncrasies.



I think it was Mark Twain who said something about "I have no use for a man who only knows how to spell a word one way". (I paraphrase.)


----------



## Wren (Oct 6, 2017)

‘_The Wikipedia link describes an activity which goes beyond being conduct of the lowest social classes. *It's savagery.‘

*_Well I’m British and had never heard of it, after Googling it with much trepidation, I’m thinking this must be a wind up, there’s a lot  more savage things going on in the world.......


----------



## Smiling Jane (Oct 6, 2017)

I wonder if it's the body-slamming that's considered offensive by posters here. If so, that's odd because I've seen far more body-slamming among guys goofing around, challenging an adversary, perpetrating domestic violence, wrestlers, the police and military forces than I've seen in mosh pits. At least in the mosh pits, those who are doing it are having fun and there is no intention to cause actual harm. Body-slamming has always seemed to me to be fairly typical hypermasculine behavior.


----------



## Falcon (Oct 6, 2017)

SIMPLY  PUT;   A   "mosh pit"  is the area  down and in front of a stage  where some kind of entertainment  is taking  place !!!!

Fans like to gather there to be close to the performers and listen to the music.

IFsome sort of violence takes place  has nothing to do with the initial description.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2017)

I really don't understand the problem? Words mean different things in different cultures. Same with spelling. Diversity can be a good thing in my book. Often, perceived vulgarity is a generational thing. My gramma would turn over in her grave at some of my speech patterns, yet they seem very normal to my compatriots.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 6, 2017)

If, in our choice of words, we simply asked ourselves whether a word would have been acceptable in 1950, the problem would be solved.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> If, in our choice of words, we simply asked ourselves whether a word would have been acceptable in 1950, the problem would be solved.



Why? I, for one, am delighted that I don't live in such an antiquated time. I have no desire to "serve" men, or have difficulty buying a house, or require my husband's permission in order to open a bank acct etc. doubt there were many female psychologists in 1950 either. What is morality to some, is often repression to others.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> Yes, Ive heard that about the word "nonce" also from someone in the UK.



I'm surprised at that meaning.

The term 'for the nonce' means for the present.  At this time.  Nothing about kid stuff.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

It's a slang term like snout is slang for an police informant.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 7, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Why? I, for one, am delighted that I don't live in such an antiquated time. I have no desire to "serve" men, or have difficulty buying a house, or require my husband's permission in order to open a bank acct etc. doubt there were many female psychologists in 1950 either. What is morality to some, is often repression to others.


My late wife and I were in Calgary in 1968.  We decided to stop at a bar for a beer.  The arrangement of the bar was the strangest I had ever seen or have seen since.  There were two doors side by side at the front.  One was marked, "Men Only."  The other was marked, "Couples Only."  We entered through the couples' door and found ourselves upon entering to be standing next to a stout lattice barrier.  There was a seating area.  About halfway into the room there was an opening in the fence where the bar, service bar only, was.  We could see enough through the opening enough to note that the barman served the entire place from the two sides of the bar.  We had a waiter, not a waitress.  He was a rather surly specimen who couldn't be bothered to tell us about the arrangement.  We left shortly thereafter.  My wife found the fact that women couldn't enter by themselves to be particularly offensive.

I'm not surprised that a country that would have establishments of that sort would also have laws requiring a husband to grant permission to his wife before she could open a bank account and why she might have difficulty buying property.  We have never had laws of that sort in this country.  Women could always have bank accounts as well as brokers' accounts, own businesses, and enter into contracts.  Hettie Green, the "Witch of Wall Street," was treated as an equal by her male counterparts.  Businesswomen always were.  There were physicians and lawyers of the fair sex during the nineteenth century.  A woman was first elected to office as a Justice of the Peace in 1876.  By 1950 women had served as governors and senators.

America has its faults, but it's still the best place for those who value freedom and opportunity.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> My late wife and I were in Calgary in 1968.  We decided to stop at a bar for a beer.  The arrangement of the bar was the strangest I had ever seen or have seen since.  There were two doors side by side at the front.  One was marked, "Men Only."  The other was marked, "Couples Only."  We entered through the couples' door and found ourselves upon entering to be standing next to a stout lattice barrier.  There was a seating area.  About halfway into the room there was an opening in the fence where the bar, service bar only, was.  We could see enough through the opening enough to note that the barman served the entire place from the two sides of the bar.  We had a waiter, not a waitress.  He was a rather surly specimen who couldn't be bothered to tell us about the arrangement.  We left shortly thereafter.  My wife found the fact that women couldn't enter by themselves to be particularly offensive.
> 
> I'm not surprised that a country that would have establishments of that sort would also have laws requiring a husband to grant permission to his wife before she could open a bank account and why she might have difficulty buying property.  We have never had laws of that sort in this country.  Women could always have bank accounts as well as brokers' accounts, own businesses, and enter into contracts.  Hettie Green, the "Witch of Wall Street," was treated as an equal by her male counterparts.  Businesswomen always were.  There were physicians and lawyers of the fair sex during the nineteenth century.  A woman was first elected to office as a Justice of the Peace in 1876.  By 1950 women had served as governors and senators.
> 
> America has its faults, but it's still the best place for those who value freedom and opportunity.


Je suis triste that apparently the  Canada of  almost fifty years ago did not live up to your standards, as for America  being the best place for those who value freedom and opportunity,   my goodness, I think there might be some people of colour who may disagree with you. Perhaps some LGBTQI individuals also. Such a strong response, slamming my country, merely because I disagreed with you?


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 7, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Je suis triste that apparently the  Canada of  almost fifty years ago did not live up to your standards, as for America  being the best place for those who value freedom and opportunity,   my goodness, I think there might be some people of colour who may disagree with you. Perhaps some LGBTQI individuals also. Such a strong response, slamming my country, merely because I disagreed with you?


I thought we agreed that Canada's treatment of women has been abysmal.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> I thought we agreed that Canada's treatment of women has been abysmal.


Not at all. In America, during the 1960's, a bank could refuse to issue a credit card to an unmarried woman, if she was married, her husband was required to cosign. Under those circumstances, buying property on her own could be problematic. Not until 

the Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974, was it illegal to refuse a credit card to a woman based on her gender. Regarding education, Yale and Princeton didn't accept female students prior to 1969, Harvard denied them entry until 1977. With the 

exception of University of Pennsylvania, which accepted some women on a case by case basis, in 1876, and Cornell, which opened it's doors to some women in 1870, women were barred from Ivy League schools until at least 1969. Women have come a long way in both America and Canada.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

When did women get the vote in USA?


----------



## Buckeye (Oct 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> When did women get the vote in USA?



August 18, 1920.  Date of ratification of 19th amendment.  Some say it was the beginning of the end of America....

jk.  some states allowed women to vote before that, the amendment made it nationwide


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

That late, eh? They did try to prevent it back in 1777



> *1777* — All states pass laws taking away women’s right to vote.



and reinforced the notion in 1870



> *1870* — The 15th Amendment is ratified, saying, “The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” African-Americans may vote now, but women may not.



But never mind. By 1920 enlightenment prevailed and women could vote in federal elections.



> *1920* — The 19th Amendment is ratified and grants women the right to vote. It declares: “The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.”



But enlightenment has its limits



> *1923* — The National Woman’s Party proposes a Constitutional amendment: “Men and women shall have equal rights throughout the United States and in every place subject to its jurisdiction. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.” It does not pass.



Interesting topic, Big Horn, even if rather off topic.


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Oct 7, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I really don't understand the problem? Words mean different things in different cultures. Same with spelling. Diversity can be a good thing in my book. Often, perceived vulgarity is a generational thing. My gramma would turn over in her grave at some of my speech patterns, yet they seem very normal to my compatriots.



I don't see a problem either. In the early days people didn't speak or write with contractions, though it is perfectly acceptable now. No one said "I don't see a problem." They said "I do not see a problem." Or, probably more like, "What, sir, seems to be the problem?" ...but you get my point.

Shalimar, here's a phrase the meaning of which was once _not_ considered vulgar, but absolutely would be today if its true meaning is made clear: Rule of thumb


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2017)

Cap'nSacto said:


> I don't see a problem either. In the early days people didn't speak or write with contractions, though it is perfectly acceptable now. No one said "I don't see a problem." They said "I do not see a problem." Or, probably more like, "What, sir, seems to be the problem?" ...but you get my point.
> 
> Shalimar, here's a phrase the meaning of which was once _not_ considered vulgar, but absolutely would be today if its true meaning is made clear: Rule of thumb


Ohhh, you made me laugh! Thanks.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> When did women get the vote in USA?


The Wyoming Territorial Legislature granted full suffrage to all adults when the territory was organized in 1869.  This was reaffirmed when Wyoming became a state in 1890.  Utah did the same in 1870.  However, the territorial governor who was not elected, but appointed by the president rescinded this because of his opposition to plural marriage.  Colorado and Idaho were early states to grant all citizens suffrage.  The greatest resistance was on the east coast.  Since it's really complicated, I've appended a link to an informative website.

BTW, what about Australia?

http://depts.washington.edu/moves/WomanSuffrage_map.shtml


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 7, 2017)

Cap'nSacto said:


> I don't see a problem either. In the early days people didn't speak or write with contractions, though it is perfectly acceptable now. No one said "I don't see a problem." They said "I do not see a problem." Or, probably more like, "What, sir, seems to be the problem?" ...but you get my point.


 "Early Modern English holds many more contractions than are used today, such as _shan’t, ‘twere, 'twon’t, 'tis, ha'n’t,_ and many more."

I especially like the double contraction _ha'n't. _ It sure beats_ haven't.  Sha'n't _is also the correct form.

http://historicallyirrelevant.com/post/3505130893/the-history-of-contractions


----------



## Cap'nSacto (Oct 7, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> "Early Modern English holds many more contractions than are used today, such as _shan’t, ‘twere, 'twon’t, 'tis, ha'n’t,_ and many more."
> 
> I especially like the double contraction _ha'n't. _ It sure beats_ haven't.  Sha'n't _is also the correct form.



Indeed. Popularized when poets of the day took poetic license.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> The Wyoming Territorial Legislature granted full suffrage to all adults when the territory was organized in 1869.  This was reaffirmed when Wyoming became a state in 1890.  Utah did the same in 1870.  However, the territorial governor who was not elected, but appointed by the president rescinded this because of his opposition to plural marriage.  Colorado and Idaho were early states to grant all citizens suffrage.  The greatest resistance was on the east coast.  Since it's really complicated, I've appended a link to an informative website.
> 
> BTW, what about Australia?
> 
> http://depts.washington.edu/moves/WomanSuffrage_map.shtml



I'll have check but in 1869 I'm not sure how many colonies had achieved their own parliamentary systems. NSW had so I'll see what I can find. South Australia was the most progressive state so I'll check that one out too.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

Male suffrage only at first with a requirement of property ownership and/or financial capacity. Couldn't have convicts voting, could we?



> Australia's first parliamentary elections were conducted for the New South Wales Legislative Council in 1843, again with voting rights (for males only) tied to property ownership or financial capacity. Voter rights were extended further in New South Wales in 1850 and elections for legislative councils were held in the colonies of Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania.[SUP][3][/SUP]
> 
> By the mid-19th century, there was a strong desire for representative and responsible government in the colonies of Australia, fed by the democratic spirit of the goldfields evident at the Eureka Stockade and the ideas of the great reform movements sweeping Europe, the United States and the British Empire, such as Chartism.
> 
> The Australian Colonies Government Act, passed in 1850, was a landmark development that granted representative constitutions to New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania and the colonies enthusiastically set about writing constitutions which produced democratically progressive parliaments.



Women first has the vote in South Australia in 1861, again with some caveats.



> A movement for women's suffrage gathered pace during the 19th century. The experience and organisations involved in the suffrage movement varied across the colonies.
> 
> Propertied women in the colony of South Australia were granted the vote in local elections (but not parliamentary elections) in 1861. The Parliament of South Australia endorsed the right to vote and stand for parliament in 1894 and the law received royal assent in 1895.[SUP][5][/SUP] The law applied equally in the Northern Territory, which was then a part of South Australia. In 1897, Catherine Helen Spence became the first female political candidate for political office, unsuccessfully standing for election in South Australia as a delegate to Federal Convention on Australian Federation, which was held in Adelaide.[SUP][6]
> [/SUP]
> ...



Universal franchise for men and women (other than Aboriginals or Chinese) was granted in 1902 but as shown above some of the states took a little longer to catch up.



> The first election for the Parliament of the newly formed Commonwealth of Australia in 1901 was based on the electoral laws of the six federating colonies, so that women who had the vote and the right to stand for Parliament at a colony (now state) level (i.e., in South Australia including the Northern Territory and Western Australia) had the same rights for the 1901 Australian federal election. In 1902, the Commonwealth Parliament passed the uniform _Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902_, which enabled women 21 years of age and older to vote at elections for the federal Parliament.
> 
> The States soon gave women over 21 the vote: New South Wales in 1902, Tasmania in 1903, Queensland in 1905, and Victoria in 1908.



It took until 1967 for indigenous men and women to get the vote. I voted in the referendum that changed the constitution to allow it.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> I thought we agreed that Canada's treatment of women has been abysmal.



Ha. Making men responsible for their wife's debts was abysmal.

They weren't discriminating against women.  They were discriminating against men.


----------



## SifuPhil (Oct 7, 2017)

The U.S. has had a long and exasperating history of getting women the right to work. The general attitude of the government, as well as the so-called worker's rights organizations, all held the view that men had a superior right to work, that a man's respectability rested on his ability to support a non-working wife, and that there was a sense of entitlement to ****** and household services of wives. 

It wasn't until the mid-1800's that any sort of movement appeared to allow women to work outside the home, and it wasn't until 1963 that an Equal Pay Act was passed. Now, 54 years later, there is still a disparity between wages for men and women.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 7, 2017)

I thought we were talking about etymology.   
  So let me get this in while I still have a chance-  "hey, nonny nonny".

....as you were, people.  layful:


----------



## Falcon (Oct 7, 2017)

and a hot cha  cha.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 7, 2017)

Falcon-


----------



## Butterfly (Apr 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I'm surprised at that meaning.
> 
> The term 'for the nonce' means for the present.  At this time.  Nothing about kid stuff.



I agree.  And I've never heard "nonce" used to mean anything about pedophilia.


----------



## ancient mariner (Apr 19, 2018)

can anyone define these words:

[h=1]Jabberwocky[/h]
BY LEWIS CARROLL

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 

      Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: 

All mimsy were the borogoves, 

      And the mome raths outgrabe. 



“Beware the Jabberwock, my son! 

      The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! 

Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun 

      The frumious Bandersnatch!” 



He took his vorpal sword in hand; 

      Long time the manxome foe he sought— 

So rested he by the Tumtum tree 

      And stood awhile in thought. 



And, as in uffish thought he stood, 

      The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame, 

Came whiffling through the tulgey wood, 

      And burbled as it came! 



One, two! One, two! And through and through 

      The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! 

He left it dead, and with its head 

      He went galumphing back. 



“And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? 

      Come to my arms, my beamish boy! 

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!” 

      He chortled in his joy. 



’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 

      Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: 

All mimsy were the borogoves, 

      And the mome raths outgrabe.







Source: _The Random House Book of Poetry for Children_ (198


----------



## terry123 (Apr 20, 2018)

Falcon said:


> SIMPLY  PUT;   A   "mosh pit"  is the area  down and in front of a stage  where some kind of entertainment  is taking  place !!!!
> 
> Fans like to gather there to be close to the performers and listen to the music.
> 
> IFsome sort of violence takes place  has nothing to do with the initial description.


 You got it right Falcon!!


----------



## Radrook (Apr 21, 2018)

This is the first time I come across these words so I looked them up just to confirm the definitions being provided here.  Here are the definitions for nonce and Mosh Pit.




> *nonce*
> Used by prison staff, to explain the segregation of inmates who were convicted of sex crimes towards children and the other inmates
> 
> Not
> ...


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 21, 2018)

Radrook said:


> This is the first time I come across these words so I looked them up just to confirm the definitions being provided here.  Here are the definitions for nonce and Mosh Pit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jujube (Apr 21, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Not at all. In America, during the 1960's, a bank could refuse to issue a credit card to an unmarried woman, if she was married, her husband was required to cosign. Under those circumstances, buying property on her own could be problematic. Not until
> 
> the Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974, was it illegal to refuse a credit card to a woman based on her gender. Regarding education, Yale and Princeton didn't accept female students prior to 1969, Harvard denied them entry until 1977. With the
> 
> exception of University of Pennsylvania, which accepted some women on a case by case basis, in 1876, and Cornell, which opened it's doors to some women in 1870, women were barred from Ivy League schools until at least 1969. Women have come a long way in both America and Canada.



We got our first credit card in 1973.  I had a very well-paying job and my husband was going to school full time working on his doctorate.  His only income at the time was what he was receiving from the GI Bill for his schooling.  I applied for the credit card in my name.  The bank issued it in my husband's name and I was given a second card that also had his name on it.  So....it was MY income that got us the card but it had to be in HIS name and I was just an extra user.   We've come a long, long way.  Oh, and to get our first mortgage that same year, I had to sign a statement saying I didn't plan on having any more children. He didn't have to sign anything that said he wasn't planning on going to school for the rest of his life.


----------



## Radrook (Apr 21, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> Radrook said:
> 
> 
> > This is the first time I come across these words so I looked them up just to confirm the definitions being provided here.  Here are the definitions for nonce and Mosh Pit.
> ...


----------



## Falcon (Apr 21, 2018)

IMO    The word  "nonce"   is  NOT  an everyday  word,  SO,  I never use it.

There are  many other words  to use  in its  place.


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 21, 2018)

Falcon said:


> IMO    The word  "nonce"   is  NOT  an everyday  word,  SO,  I never use it.
> 
> There are  many other words  to use  in its  place.


OK, what's your favorite synonym for _nonce_?


----------

