# Australia & Putin



## Fern (Nov 13, 2014)

The Aussie PM has upset Putin so much he's sending the warships to 'visit' Australia. 


> The Russians are coming, but the Australian Government isn't about to panic.
> Four  Russian warships are exercising in the Coral Sea before this weekend's  G20 summit in Brisbane, in a move being interpreted as a show of force  by President Vladimir Putin.
> But the Australian Government says that as long as the vessels stay in international waters there is nothing to worry about.
> Prime Minister Tony Abbott insists Australia has been monitoring the warships for some time and will continue to do so.
> ...


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 13, 2014)

It's a circus, and we've got ringside seats :rofl:


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 13, 2014)

Putin isn't Abbott's only worry.

He's refused to put climate change on the G20 agenda because he doesn't see it as an 'economic issue'.

There are others who disagree and now he has been embarrassed by the US and Chinese presidents releasing a joint statement about future emission reduction targets. The Coalition has long shouted that Australia should not act before the big polluters do something. This has been the justification for dismantling the previous government's climate change policies. Now it is patently obvious that we are well behind the pack on this issue.

He's a mental midget as this cartoon makes clear.


----------



## metasegue (Nov 13, 2014)

*



			"I would be more concerned about what's happening over  in the Ukraine than what's happening with three or four - including one  tugboat - Russian vessels in our area. Labour leader Bill Shorten said the deployment distracted from Russia's complicity in the MH17 air disaster. "I don't think we should play the Putin game of engaging in his stunts."
		
Click to expand...


That's for real. Russian warplanes are doing all kinds of provocative things near NATO airspace. Their long range bombers have deployed to the Gulf of Mexico like in cold war days. Putin is really dangerous. I remember when the USSR fell and all the idiots in Washington ran around chanting: "We're the only superpower!". That one stupid moment set this all up. Like Geo. Bush calling our response to 9/11 a "Crusade". Jeez.*


----------



## Debby (Nov 13, 2014)

metasegue said:


> *"I would be more concerned about what's happening over  in the Ukraine than what's happening with three or four - including one  tugboat - Russian vessels in our area. Labour leader Bill Shorten said the deployment distracted from Russia's complicity in the MH17 air disaster. "I don't think we should play the Putin game of engaging in his stunts."
> 
> That's for real. Russian warplanes are doing all kinds of provocative things near NATO airspace. Their long range bombers have deployed to the Gulf of Mexico like in cold war days. Putin is really dangerous. I remember when the USSR fell and all the idiots in Washington ran around chanting: "We're the only superpower!". That one stupid moment set this all up. Like Geo. Bush calling our response to 9/11 a "Crusade". Jeez.*




What complicity?  Russia didn't shoot down that plane and if you want to talk about complicity, how about American complicity to the tune of $5 billion dollars spent supporting neo-Nazi thugs and Fascists who overthrew a duly elected government in Ukraine?  Not the first government America has 'removed'.  How would America like it if some other country came in and fomented trouble with terrorists and threw Republicans and Democrats out on their ears?  Would that sit well with you?  

How about if Russia came into Canada, supported terrorists who chased Harper out of the country and then set up their puppet regime right next door to you?  Isn't that exactly what the US has done in Ukraine?

There is a reason that a Gallup poll done earlier in the year, chose the US as the greatest threat to peace(Russia wasn't in first place on that one and wasn't even mentioned as a matter of fact).  http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 13, 2014)

First Dog on the Moon pretty much sums up our Prime Minister's diplomatic expertise.


----------



## metasegue (Nov 13, 2014)

*The first half of my post (QUOTES) came from Fern's post earlier. I'm not overly familiar with relations down there. I was criticizing my country. I'm am aware of some of the clandestine abuses. I was simply remarking on Russia's increasingly hostile military posture towards the west and it's obvious implications.

If the entire Canadian Parliament could be compromised into electing a Russian flunky....I guess we'd deserve our new neighbours. Are the politics of Australia and New Zealand in accord...generally? Just curious.*


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2014)

A Russian flunky? Please explain because I have no idea who this is referencing, nor why.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Nov 14, 2014)

Somebody needs to get OZ in line, maybe we should let the Ruskies do it, or make it a joint venture, but it needs to be done...


----------



## metasegue (Nov 14, 2014)

I'm referencing Debby's post before yours where she described a scenario in which the Russians installed a Canadian puppet...supposedly like we (the U.S.) did in the Ukraine.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2014)

Ah... I've reread the posts and realise that Debbie was talking about a hypothetical situation.
I couldn't quite see Harper as a Russian puppet with Putin pulling the strings.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Nov 14, 2014)

How about your strings?


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2014)

Nowhere that you can yank them.

:tongue:


----------



## Ralphy1 (Nov 14, 2014)

OK, but when I am on Mars enjoying an adult beverage while listening to the King you may be dancing to A Russian tune...


----------



## Debby (Nov 14, 2014)

metasegue said:


> *The first half of my post (QUOTES) came from Fern's post earlier. I'm not overly familiar with relations down there. I was criticizing my country. I'm am aware of some of the clandestine abuses. I was simply remarking on Russia's increasingly hostile military posture towards the west and it's obvious implications.
> 
> If the entire Canadian Parliament could be compromised into electing a Russian flunky....I guess we'd deserve our new neighbours. Are the politics of Australia and New Zealand in accord...generally? Just curious.*




And considering the pressure that America is putting on Russia, is there ANY surprise that Russia is having to stand up to it?  Would you be hostile if you were in their position?  Everything from Russia was peaceful pretty much until the US trained their sights on the Ukraine government.  

Ukraine wasn't compromised into electing an American flunky.  Nice non-inflammatory way of saying what happened.  The USA spent billions that you don't have to support a coup by blood thirsty fascists.  Did Russia 'deserve' that?  Why?  Why would you say that?  What had they done to America before that event?  Anything?

USA 'Caught Red Handed'  '_US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was caught on tape micro-managing Ukraine opposition party strategies with US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt...'  http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/12/caught-red-handed/


'...The forbidden truth is that the West has engineered –through a carefully staged covert operation– the formation of a proxy regime integrated by Neo-Nazis.Confirmed by Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, key organizations in the Ukraine including the Neo-Nazi party Svoboda were generously supported by Washington: “We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. … We will continue to promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.”...'http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554_


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> OK, but when I am on Mars enjoying an adult beverage while listening to the King you may be dancing to A Russian tune...


Ah Kalinka, I know it well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn06W-iBfkQ

My grandson plays in the Sydney Balalaika Orchestra. He play a domra.


----------



## Fern (Nov 14, 2014)

It's a pathetic stance from Putin, Good on OZ, bullies need standing up to, regardless of their race. 



> The prime minister, who met with Putin earlier this week on the  sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Beijing,  aired details of his conversation with the Russian leader.
> “One of the points that I tried to make to President Putin is that  Russia would be so much more attractive if it was aspiring to be a  superpower for peace and freedom and prosperity … instead of trying to  recreate the lost glories of czarism or the old Soviet Union.”
> Abbott, an athletic 56-year-old former amateur boxer whose government  is a staunch U.S. ally, has gained a higher international profile by  loudly demanding more co-operation from Russia on the Dutch-led  investigation into the downing of Flight 17.
> He raised eyebrows last month when he declared he intended to  “shirtfront” Putin, using an Australian football term for a head-on  shoulder charge to an opponent’s chest.
> ...


----------



## Debby (Nov 14, 2014)

Fern said:


> It's a pathetic stance from Putin, Good on OZ, bullies need standing up to, regardless of their race.




Russia was fine until the US started meddling in Ukraine.


----------



## metasegue (Nov 14, 2014)

Debby said:


> Russia was fine until the US started meddling in Ukraine.



Was this before or after Putin poisoned Viktor Yushchenko? You remember him...he was introducing democracy to Ukraine.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 15, 2014)

I listened to President Obama's address to Queensland University this afternoon.
Very impressive and very inspiring. No notes and speaking with conviction.


----------



## Davey Jones (Nov 15, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I listened to President Obama's address to Queensland University this afternoon.
> Very impressive and very inspiring. No notes and speaking with conviction.




Thats what got Obama elected 2 times, a lot of blah,blah out of his mouth and the voters were stupid enough to give him a second term.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-loneliest-president-since-nixon-1415920451


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 15, 2014)

Our voters were happy enough to elect a new government based entirely on three word slogans.


----------



## Sid (Nov 15, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Our voters were happy enough to elect a new government based entirely on three word slogans.



         So was ours.


----------



## Debby (Nov 15, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Thats what got Obama elected 2 times, a lot of blah,blah out of his mouth and the voters were stupid enough to give him a second term.
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-loneliest-president-since-nixon-1415920451




Or maybe what saved his butt was that the voters couldn't stomach the alternative?


----------



## Jackie22 (Nov 15, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I listened to President Obama's address to Queensland University this afternoon.
> Very impressive and very inspiring. No notes and speaking with conviction.



Yes, he always does...

Here are President Obama’s 10 top accomplishments two years ago...


1. Passed Health Care Reform : After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance, signed the Affordable Care Act (2010). 

2. Passed the Stimulus: Signed $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in 2009 to spur economic growth amid greatest recession since the Great Depression. 

3. Passed Wall Street Reform: Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2010) to re-regulate the financial sector after its practices caused the Great Recession. 

4. Ended the War in Iraq: Ordered all U.S. military forces out of the country. Last troops left on December 18, 2011. 

5. Began Drawdown of War in Afghanistan: From a peak of 101,000 troops in June 2011, U.S. forces are now down to 91,000, with 23,000 slated to leave.

6. Eliminated Osama bin laden: In 2011, ordered special forces raid of secret compound. 

7. Turned Around U.S. Auto Industry 

8. Recapitalized Banks: In the midst of financial crisis. Got banks back on their feet at essentially zero cost to the government. 

9. Repealed “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”: Ended 1990s-era restriction and formalized new policy allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military for the first time. 

10. Toppled Moammar Gaddafi. No American lives were lost.


There are 40 more here...... 


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ma...mas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php?page=all


----------



## Debby (Nov 15, 2014)

metasegue said:


> Was this before or after Putin poisoned Viktor Yushchenko? You remember him...he was introducing democracy to Ukraine.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

This page doesn't say really anything to that effect.

Many have linked Yushchenko's poisoning to a dinner with a group of senior Ukrainian officials (including Volodymyr Satsyuk) that took place on 5 September...Yushchenko himself implicated David Zhvania, who was a minister in the Tymoshenko government that was ousted by Yushchenko and was  the godfather of one of his children, of involvement in his dioxin poisoning...... Ukrainian Prosecutor General's Office, said high-ranking officials from the presidential secretariat and family members of Yushchenko falsified evidence in his poisoning case, with dioxin being added to Yushchenko's blood samples....The 2004 TCDD levels in Yushchenko's blood serum were 50,000-fold greater than those in the general population.[SUP][24][/SUP] This new study also concluded that the dioxin "was so pure that it was definitely made in a laboratory"......September 2009, a special commission, created by the Verkhovna Rada, came to a conclusion that the Yushchenko dioxin poisoning was falsified to strengthen his positions during 2004 presidential elections

Also, it would appear that he was running against Yanukovych (whom the US helped throw out of office)and that neither won a 50% + majority and .....Because neither candidate reached the 50% majority required for outright victory, a second round of run-off voting was held on November 21, 2004. Although a 75% voter turnout was recorded,observers reported many irregularities and abuses across the country, such as organized multiple voting and extra votes for Yanukovych after the polls closed..

September 8, 2005 Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko sacked the entire government after both Deputy Prime Minister Mykola Tomenko and presidential chief of staff Oleksandr Zinchenko spoke out that the government was "riddled with corruption" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Tymoshenko_Government)


So now it's your turn.  Provide the proof that Putin had anything to do with that incident.  From what I have read, it's more likely that it was either members in his own party who had an agenda to get their party/him in whatever the cost or possibly the recently thrown out Yanukovich government that were seeking to take out the opposition.  And keep in mind, that besides Russia producing TCCD (Agent Orange) so does the USA and the USA wasn't hesitant about spraying Vietnam with the chemical and the USA recently funnelled $5 billion into the Ukraine to help them oust their government.  Bless the CIA, so useful when one has an agenda.

It's an interesting thing to note from another page, that during the hay-day of the Soviet Union, the KGB took assassination by poisoning to new levels of sophistication.  The article goes on to question why anyone would choose a toxin that would remain in the mans system for years and my question, why would they not give him enough to actually kill him.  Like this article says, why not do the job properly with strychnine which it seems to me, if it were Russian assassins at work, they would know how to do the job properly.  http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_poisoning_of_ukraines_president/


----------



## Twixie (Nov 15, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Ah Kalinka, I know it well
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn06W-iBfkQ
> 
> My grandson plays in the Sydney Balalaika Orchestra. He play a domra.



The best one was by the Red Army

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XxK2JJisEc


----------



## Fern (Nov 15, 2014)

Debby said:


> Russia was fine until the US started meddling in Ukraine.


 It doesn't take much for Putin to stick his nose in, (if anything at all) it's common knowledge that he wants the 'old' Russia back, back to the glory days of the KGB & communisim.

Reading the article one could be forgiven for thinking that climate change was something new, all their hot air is rhetoric, rhetoric.



> Climate change was forced to the top of the G20 agenda on Saturday,  despite the objections of the host nation Australia, after Barack Obama  urged the world to rally behind a new global agreement and the United  Nations secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, called it “the defining issue of  our times”.
> The Australian prime minister, Tony Abbott, had argued climate  discussions would distract from the G20’s economic policy focus and  should be left to other UN-led meetings.
> But in a one-two manoeuvre that caught Australia off guard, Obama  upstaged Abbott and made certain it was the talk of the conference  anyway. First came the joint US/China post-2020 greenhouse emission  reduction targets announced in Beijing on the eve of the summit and then  the $3bn Green Climate Fund pledge made in a keynote speech as Abbott  was greeting other world leaders across town.
> “No nation is immune and every nation has a responsibility to do its  part,” Obama said. “You will recall at the beginning I said the US and  Australia has a lot in common. Well one of the things we have in common  is we produce a lot of carbon … which means we’ve got to step up.”
> ...


----------



## Davey Jones (Nov 15, 2014)




----------



## Debby (Nov 15, 2014)

Fern said:


> It doesn't take much for Putin to stick his nose in, (if anything at all) it's common knowledge that he wants the 'old' Russia back, back to the glory days of the KGB & communisim.




Are you serious?  Who stuck their nose into the Ukraine in 2013?  America did to the tune of $5 billion to neo-Nazis and fascists.  And frankly after all the reading that I've done that IS NOT mainstream media offerings, he isn't interested in reviving the old days of Russia and communism.  From what I'v been reading his focus is on making Russia self-sufficient (particularly now), continue to develop that society and move away from the poverty that the country suffered with through Communism and maintaining an economy that doesn't include the American dollar,  and does include backing up the Russian ruble with physical gold, and THAT is one more reason why the US is so fixated on proving that 'theirs is bigger'.  

Russia just bought 55 tonnes of gold as a hedge against an economic downfall that is being orchestrated by the US and Saudi Arabia.  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/putin-prepares-economic-war-buys-stunning-55-tonnes-gold-q3

The American economy has grown an enormous debt (that they'll never pay back because it's so huge) simply because they can print money out of thin air.  That's what happens when you don't have to back up a fiat currency with something actual and physical.  Once upon a time their currency was backed up by gold, now it's not.  And because being the reserve currency makes them a lot of money because the world has to 'buy' American dollars to trade in and particularly in the case of oil (referred to as 'petrodollars'), the American administration is doing whatever it can to prevent gold from being seen as a currency and to prevent other countries from using anything other than their dollars as a trading currency.

Saddam Hussein wanted to trade oil for Euro's (avoid the American dollar) and he was killed.  Ghaddafi wanted to trade oil for gold and he was killed.  Iran wanted to start an Iranian bourse which would have seen them trading oil for euros and now Russia and China are going to do their commerce in rubles (no American dollars) and America is PO'd.  Frankly I'm amazed that Harper had the balls to start trading with China in yuan/rubles and bypass the American dollar.  

Around 2005, Iran began to set in motion a plan for trading their oil for euros, one more reason they're on the American sh** list.

'...In 2005-2006, The Tehran government has a developed a plan to begin competing with New York's NYMEX and London's IPE with respect to international oil trades - using a euro-denominated international oil-trading mechanism. This means that without some form of US intervention, the euro is going to establish a firm foothold in the international oil trade. Given U.S. debt levels and the stated neoconservative project for U.S. global domination, Tehran's objective constitutes an obvious encroachment on U.S. dollar supremacy in the international oil market...'  - http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html





'..._The details are emerging of a new secret and quite stupid Saudi-US deal on Syria and the so-called IS. It involves oil and gas control of the entire region and the weakening of Russia and Iran by Saudi Arabian flooding the world market with cheap oil. Details were concluded in the September meeting by US Secretary of State John Kerry and the Saudi King. The unintended consequence will be to push Russia even faster to turn east to China and Eurasia....'_http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-secret-stupid-saudi-us-deal-on-syria/5410130


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 15, 2014)

> But in the backrooms of the G20, Australia was continuing to resist


Only our current government who have painted themselves into a corner on climate change, having used the "great big new tax" mantra to demolish the previous government. Their greenhouse emissions reduction policy is farcical and the less light that is shone on it the better as far as they are concerned. They utterly refuse to see climate change as an economic challenge.


----------



## Debby (Nov 15, 2014)

Dame Warrigal, most politicians are thinking in terms of their next term in office and thinking about the environment might impinge on that possibility, so they adopt the mantra, 'deny, deny, deny'.  That way they might get relected and then some other guy can deal with the climate when their done being a politician.  

Besides, they retire with big bank accounts, the possibility of millions from speaking engagements so they'll be able to live 'off world' (remember that recent movie 'Elysium'?) while the rest of human lives in the heat and filth on a world that is dying.  Do you think that's possible?

My hope is that if they don't get their acts together, that the space race won't have been able to figure out living off world and they'll be stick down here on the dying world with us.  It will be the equivalent of throwing them into 'general population' and we all know what that means.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2014)

Please, Debby, my friends just call me Warri. :grin:

Out PM has been completely flat footed by the USA and China and he is looking increasingly foolish.
He's had 14 months in office and the fates are conspiring against him.
I'm loving it because he is a nasty piece of work.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2014)

Ouch! Robyn Dixon from the Los Angeles Times has nailed it about the state of Australian politics.



> *Comment: Australia suffers another cringe-worthy moment during G20 summit*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Ouch! Robyn Dixon from the Los Angeles Times has nailed it about the state of Australian politics.



Thanks 'Warri' and I'll try to remember that.  I say try, because last week I was in the grocery story, passing some display of house decor kind of stuff and suddenly I realized I couldn't remember what my bathroom looked like, or where it was exactly in my house.  Kind of freaked me out for a minute you know.  By the way, is Warrigal an Aussi name and does it mean something or is that a 'handle' you chose?


Anyway, sounds like your PM is about as bright as our PM.  It's like a bunch of pre-adolescent teen boys trying to prove who can pee the farthest instead of looking at and for ways to support the citizens and make the majority happy.  And ultimately, isn't 'happiness' the end goal?  Stupid politicians.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2014)

Warrigal is several things. It is a town in Victoria, the Aboriginal word for dingo and it was used by white settlers as a term for native warriors.

When I was a youth leader I needed a club name that the kids could use that was somewhere between formal and cheeky. The scouts use names from the Jungle book; Raksha, Akela, Baloo etc so I decided to pick an Aboriginal name and settled on Warrigal - hence my dingo avatar. 

When our new PM decided to revive something like Imperial honours in the form of knighthoods and Dameships it provoked an avalanche of people assuming such titles as a send up. I decided to appropriate one for my online persona. After all what's good for Edna Everidge if good enough for me.


----------



## metasegue (Nov 16, 2014)

Yes, we are using Saudi oil to influence Russia. We couldn't have done it without becoming over producers of natural gas through expanded drilling and fracing. This is returning cheap (and cleaner) energy to America, driving economic recovery, reducing emissions, and lowering our deficit percentage. Putin's ex KGB pals kill for a trifle of the billions he's pocketing. They used a very sophisticated radio isotope to murder in the UK (2004).

What seems clear to me is Putin's obvious manipulation of Russian elections...or is that imagination also?


----------



## Meanderer (Nov 16, 2014)

metasegue said:


> Yes, we are using Saudi oil to influence Russia. We couldn't have done it without becoming over producers of natural gas through expanded drilling and fracing. This is returning cheap (and cleaner) energy to America, driving economic recovery, reducing emissions, and lowering our deficit percentage. Putin's ex KGB pals kill for a trifle of the billions he's pocketing. They used a very sophisticated radio isotope to murder in the UK (2005).


...thought you said Salad Oil for a minute!


----------



## Twixie (Nov 16, 2014)

I saw the press release with David Cameron and Vladimir Putin..icy wasn't the word...

Thing is...Russia has the gas..we buy it from them...they could turn the tap off and let us freeze..

Our government has tried to introduce ''fracking'' but there has been such an outcry from the Greens..Earthquakes...destruction of places of natural beauty..pollution...That they let it drop!!


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

metasegue said:


> Yes, we are using Saudi oil to influence Russia. We couldn't have done it without becoming over producers of natural gas through expanded drilling and fracing. This is returning cheap (and cleaner) energy to America, driving economic recovery, reducing emissions, and lowering our deficit percentage. Putin's ex KGB pals kill for a trifle of the billions he's pocketing. They used a very sophisticated radio isotope to murder in the UK (2004).
> 
> What seems clear to me is Putin's obvious manipulation of Russian elections...or is that imagination also?



http://www.globalresearch.ca/bombshell-us-caught-meddling-in-russian-elections/28060

You have to ask yourself, who is it that is saying these things about Putin manipulating elections?  If it's mainstream media in Britain, Canada or the US, ignore it.  If it's Freedom House, they get funding from the US government.  I'm not saying he hasn't but all those sites that Google brings up in my opinion are suspect.  Find an unbiased site which is known for being non-partisan and receives no Western government funding and I'll accept it.




One thing you'll notice about my posts on foreign relations is that I always include links that support the statements that I'm making.  My opinion is based on what I've read from people who have better access to information or a better education or have been following the story for years.  As far as the 'rumour' about Putin poisoning that Yushenko, it is rumour which serves a purpose and my guess is that it serves the purpose of an American administration who have chosen to cast the man in the bad light of the Russian bogey-man.  What you have to remember is that the incidents where this sort of thing happens, the process begins years before the American people begin to see the results.  There are often years of work to bring those plans to fruition.

Here's one example:  in 1991 the American administration decided to destabilize Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan and Libya.  None other then General Wesley Clark is on record on that one.  And in the years since that decision was made, Libya has been destroyed, so has Iraq, Syria is in flames and America is currently bombing Somalia.   The plan goes forward.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q9PYy1NoA  Wesley Clark video

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/09/02/us-bombs-somalia-drone-attack  Somalia bombed by American drones

As for what is going on with the oil prices, last night I was reading a great article from Global Research which is a think tank with a stellar reputation and according to the writer, this is all about control of resources in the region.  Saudi's want to take down Syria and Iran (competitors and then also the religious aspect) and to do that they need to take down Russia who is also a competitor in the energy sector (which suits American agenda just perfect).  The goal is to control the European energy market.  And they're willing to do whatever it takes.

Note too, that in a time when that region is in flames and violence is rife, the price of oil should be going up (that's what always happens normally in that kind of scenario) but instead it's dropping like a stone.  The other thing is that while that price is dropping like a stone, instead of cutting back on production to boost the price back up, they are continuing to produce oil at the same rates as previously. 

Remember, the Saudi's whole economy runs on that oil and each individual who is Arab there profits by a distribution of the profits. So in the short run, the low prices are most definitely not good for the UAE. Most Saudi's don't even work at regular jobs from what I've heard because they are supported by those revenues.  That's why the UAE has so many foreign workers, to do what the citizens won't and don't have to do.

 In the short run, you profit at the pump, in the long term it pushes Russia towards Asia, brings about a continued move away from the petrodollar (which puts America's status as the holder of the reserve currency) at more risk and if (and some economists are saying 'when')enough countries quit using the dollar to trade with, America is screwed because you've built up a massive debt that you won't be able to service in any way because you'll no longer be the holder of the Reserve Currency and you won't be able to print money ad nauseum.  QE 1,2,3 (are they doing QE 4 yet?) will only have kicked the 'Depression Can' down the road.  With your massive debt, America will hurt.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-secret-stupid-saudi-us-deal-on-syria/5410130


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

_"Yes, we are using Saudi oil to influence Russia. We couldn't have done it without becoming over producers of natural gas through expanded drilling and fracing. This is returning cheap (and cleaner) energy to America, driving economic recovery, reducing emissions, and lowering our deficit percentage"_


To answer your remarks about America's natural gas, as far as America's natural gas resource, Global Research wrote the following:    


'.....Number one, the “shale gas revolution” in the USA has failed. The dramatic rise in US natural gas production from “fracking” or forcing gas out of shale rock formations is being abandoned by the largest energy companies like Shell and BP as uneconomical.....veteran energy analyst David Hughes notes, “Shale gas production has grown explosively to account for nearly 40 percent of US natural gas production. Nevertheless, production has been on a plateau since December 2011; eighty percent of shale gas production comes from five plays, several of which are in decline. The very high decline rates of shale gas wells require continuous inputs of capital—estimated at $42 billion per year to drill more than 7,000 wells—in order to maintain production. In comparison, the value of shale gas produced in 2012 was just $32.5 billion......”

_

_http://www.globalresearch.ca/replacing-russian-gas-deliveries-with-us-shale-gas-washington-lies-to-the-eu/5377358?print=1_

__

_


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

Twixie said:


> I saw the press release with David Cameron and Vladimir Putin..icy wasn't the word...
> 
> Thing is...Russia has the gas..we buy it from them...they could turn the tap off and let us freeze..
> 
> Our government has tried to introduce ''fracking'' but there has been such an outcry from the Greens..Earthquakes...destruction of places of natural beauty..pollution...That they let it drop!!




Twixie, in this power play, America will pay no price in the short run.  It will be the Russian people, the Ukrainian people and the EU who will bleed.  If not in real blood, then financially as it pertains to things like energy, food, industry.  Can you imagine how the average Ukrainian is feeling right now, on the cusp of winter and wondering how cold it's going to get?  And yes, I feel sorry for the people there because the government was supposed to pay for the energy they were accepting from Russia.  I'll bet the citizens had to pay for their heat you know!  

And in the long run, what if as some are suggesting, the USA pushes Russia to the point where they feel they have to protect themselves and WW3 starts?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-29/paul-craig-roberts-pushing-toward-final-war

(gives me the warm-fuzzies when this author refers to my PM as America's puppet!  Must make Harper feel wonderful - finally he's being noticed!)


----------



## Twixie (Nov 16, 2014)

Debby said:


> Twixie, in this power play, America will pay no price in the short run.  It will be the Russian people, the Ukrainian people and the EU who will bleed.  If not in real blood, then financially as it pertains to things like energy, food, industry.  Can you imagine how the average Ukrainian is feeling right now, on the cusp of winter and wondering how cold it's going to get?  And yes, I feel sorry for the people there because the government was supposed to pay for the energy they were accepting from Russia.  I'll bet the citizens had to pay for their heat you know!
> 
> And in the long run, what if as some are suggesting, the USA pushes Russia to the point where they feel they have to protect themselves and WW3 starts?
> 
> ...



We are all treating Russia with kid gloves..because we don't know what power they actually have...are they bluffing?...Is it a game of poker?..

My hubs is a football fan..and Fabio Cappello who used to be the England manager is now the Russian National football manager..has been told that they can't afford to pay him.


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

Twixie said:


> We are all treating Russia with kid gloves..because we don't know what power they actually have...are they bluffing?...Is it a game of poker?..
> 
> My hubs is a football fan..and Fabio Cappello who used to be the England manager is now the Russian National football manager..has been told that they can't afford to pay him.




Ask yourself, who is trying to wreck the Russian economy?  Did your husbands friend get paid by the Russian National football corporation before America and the Saudi's started fiddling with that economy via (their) sanctions?


----------



## Fern (Nov 16, 2014)

Debby said:


> Are you serious?  Who stuck their nose into the Ukraine in 2013?  America did to the tune of $5 billion to neo-Nazis and fascists.  And frankly after all the reading that I've done that IS NOT mainstream media offerings, he isn't interested in reviving the old days of Russia and communism.  From what I'v been reading his focus is on making Russia self-sufficient (particularly now), continue to develop that society and move away from the poverty that the country suffered with through Communism and maintaining an economy that doesn't include the American dollar,  and does include backing up the Russian ruble with physical gold, and THAT is one more reason why the US is so fixated on proving that 'theirs is bigger'.
> 
> Russia just bought 55 tonnes of gold as a hedge against an economic downfall that is being orchestrated by the US and Saudi Arabia.  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/putin-prepares-economic-war-buys-stunning-55-tonnes-gold-q3
> 
> ...


Of course the US sticks its nose in to where ever it sees fit, nothing has been said to the contrary.
Do we have to be browbeaten about the US, it's become very boring, the US is not 'the World' the main thrust of my thread was about Australia & Putin.


----------



## Debby (Nov 16, 2014)

Well, the thread is about Putin and Australia and America has been trying to bring him down for the past year,  and what's more Australia's PM made a big show of how he's going to 'shirt front' the guy, so it is all relevant.  And my point of interest for the past couple years has been foreign affairs so that's mostly what I read about so when someone makes a statement that I believe has no basis in fact, I respond to it.  Sorry if you are offended by my involvement in this public forum and telling what I know, but perhaps you could activate your mental 'ignore' button and I won't be such a bother to you.  I won't be offended at all, I promise.


----------



## QuickSilver (Nov 17, 2014)

Heard this morning... Putin picked up his marbles and went home..  lol!!


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

Debby said:


> Ask yourself, who is trying to wreck the Russian economy?  Did your husbands friend get paid by the Russian National football corporation before America and the Saudi's started fiddling with that economy via (their) sanctions?



They owe him 7 million dollars...Ouch!!


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

I knew he would..he doesn't like to be seen kow towing to the West..

Back to oppressing the Ukraine...easier meat!...


----------



## QuickSilver (Nov 17, 2014)

Twixie said:


> I knew he would..he doesn't like to be seen kow towing to the West..
> 
> Back to oppressing the Ukraine...easier meat!...




My Opinion..??   He's a pompous ass


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

What makes you think that??

Come on..you know you want him!!!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...Io3PaMfLgcgH&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=671


----------



## QuickSilver (Nov 17, 2014)

Twixie said:


> What makes you think that??
> 
> Come on..you know you want him!!!
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=v...Io3PaMfLgcgH&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=671



Yes... man boobs have always been a turn on..  :excited:


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Heard this morning... Putin picked up his marbles and went home..  lol!!



Poor Vlad. He really had a bad time in Brisbane. Hardly anyone talked to him at all and those that did were very mean although he said that our Tony was an hospitable host. No shirtfronting at all.

Obama also left town as soon as things were over but several other leaders are lingering. Angela Merkel and Narendra Modi have both been in Sydney and have been giving speeches. Modi has been treated like a rock star. He will address a combined sitting of Parliament tomorrow and today it was the turn of  Xi Jinping to do the same. Apparently we now have an agreement for a free trade agreement with China. David Cameron also addressed Parliament on Friday.

These are the key agreements

*Brisbane G20 key agreements*
The Global Infrastructure Initiative to provide private financing for infrastructure investment worldwide, including the creation of a Global Infrastructure Hub in Sydney to support best practices and coordination; 

A commitment to close the gap between male and female labour-force participation rates by 25 per cent by 2025;
Principles that would help prevent the abuse of anonymous shell companies to facilitate illicit financial flows stemming from corruption, tax evasion and money laundering;
To complete, by the end of 2015, an implementation plan on combating tax avoidance by multinational companies;
A commitment to address climate change including communicating post-2020 domestic climate targets as soon as possible and preferably by the first quarter of 2015;
Leaders stress the importance of climate finance, including additional contributions to the Green Climate Fund;
An Energy Efficiency Action Plan that includes, among other initiatives, a program to increase fuel quality and reduce carbon emissions by heavy-duty vehicles;
Principles on energy markets that could serve as the basis for ongoing discussions on reform of the international energy architecture;
To advance the implementation of the international financial reform agenda

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-16/jobs-climate-change-focus-of-brisbane-g20-communique/5895210

And everyone got to cuddle a koala


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes... man boobs have always been a turn on..  :excited:



According to the news he has stashed away 70 billion in gold..

Does that make the ''moobs'' seem any sweeter??


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Poor Vlad. He really had a bad time in Brisbane. Hardly anyone talked to him at all and those that did were very mean although he said that our Tony was an hospitable host. No shirtfronting at all.
> 
> Obama also left town as soon as things were over but several other leaders are lingering. Angela Merkel and Narendra Modi have both been in Sydney and have been giving speeches. Modi has been treated like a rock star. He will address a combined sitting of Parliament tomorrow and today it was the turn of  Xi Jinping to do the same. Apparently we now have an agreement for a free trade agreement with China. David Cameron also addressed Parliament on Friday.
> 
> ...



I only ever cuddled a Koala once..and it hissed all over me..it's claws were like a dragon's..(and hurt!)..I felt like hurling the thing to the floor..


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2014)

Yep, that's koalas for ya. 
Very disappointed that they didn't perform on this occasion.

Perhaps you would like to see the police activity during the G20. 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=534155236720289&set=vb.100003774519759&type=2&theatre


----------



## Twixie (Nov 17, 2014)

Good party..

You must know that Bob Geldoff's Do they know it's christmas has come out..for a fourth time..In aid of Ebola..

Good cause..but this morning there were African people on TV saying the money..never ever gets to the people who need it..you are just buying guns.


----------



## Debby (Nov 18, 2014)

I was going to write a comment, complete with links and excerpts but I think I'll ask instead, how many Westerners EVER have read anything spoken by Putin who is more than willing to give interviews and get involved in discussions?  How many?

I have read several and each time, his tone is reasonable, conciliatory and attempts to move the discussion in the direction of all parties talking and dealing openly and fairly.  An attitude which is not coming from the West at all.

On November 13th, Putin did an interview with a German television show.  The transcript can be read here:  http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40254.htm

Any takers?  Anyone curious as to the ideas of the 'bogey-man'?


----------



## metasegue (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm having difficulty posting.....





Debby said:


> I was going to write a comment, complete with links and excerpts but I think it is more profitable to ask, how many Westerners EVER have read anything spoken by Putin who is more than willing to give interviews and get involved in discussions?  How many?
> 
> I have read several and each time, his tone is reasonable, conciliatory and attempts to move the discussion in the direction of all parties talking and dealing openly and fairly.  An attitude which is not coming from the West at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Debby (Nov 18, 2014)

metasegue said:


> I'm having difficulty posting.....



Your comment prompted me to look up Information Clearing House and the following link tells about them, their mission and their sources:  http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/intent.htm

Looking at their front page, you can see a long list of their various sources like NY Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, Forbes, Fortune, etc., to name just a few. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info 

Global Research also carried the interview on their site  (http://www.globalresearch.ca/vladim...ign-russias-sovereignty-is-threatened/5414633)



My concern about the information sources followed by the general public is that those sources are 'bought' and 'controlled' by groups such as AIPAC and others(lobbyists?), not to mention various departments of government (in all countries!)  who have an agenda that doesn't include the public getting the full picture.  Sources like CNN, MSNBC, FOX, CBC, CTV, etc.  That's why I feel it's critical to look to a multitude of alternate news sources and compare their information.

The comments on any site shouldn't be considered as part of the story should they?  Read HuffPost or CNN or any MSM site and see the same kinds of bias's at work on either side depending on the story.  Information Clearing House would be a site that is frequented by people who are probably continually reviewing the BIG PICTURE, as opposed to the little picture that politicians will dish out via MSM to keep the public placated and happy and based on that BIG PICTURE information, there is righteous anger out there.  But again, read the story for it's sake, note who wrote it and their credentials and ignore comments. 

I just read an article about a ten year old Palestinian girl who was shot in the face by the IDF and they are holding her father for questioning.  The boy who was set on fire and burned to death in Israel - what has happened to those monsters and did their family homes get demolished like Palestinian homes do if one of their family members steps out of line?  The Palestinian bus driver who was found hanged, his family wants a Palestinian pathologist in attendance, and my guess is they won't get it.  

I could give you a huge list of links that would take you to stories about all kinds of real and proven abuses by Israel against Palestinian people including their little kids. And by and large, most MSM outlets do not carry stories on these atrocities. If you were reading the kinds of things that Israel does on a daily basis in the name of Zionism, you'd be less than civil also.    Guaranteed!  

I would like to thank you for taking the time to read Putin's interview.  Maybe you will be one of few, so congrats for being willing to look outside the box.  

Regarding the less than 'favourable to the West' stories on that site, perhaps the problem is that the US is involved globally in shaping the world to suit the US (which often involves government removal and/or bombing missions or funding terrorist groups) and now thanks to my PM, Canada can also be included in that unpleasant fragrance that comes wafting on the breeze in any discussion of world politics, conflicts, etc.

Depending on who you read, the US has military in between 38 (Pentagon number) and 150 (various other sources support numbers closer to this).  Which other country does this and do you think the Pentagon is really telling the truth? 

Russia has seven bases outside of Russia.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_military_bases_abroad and theirs are pretty much directly in the vicinity of Russian borders and would be beneficial in their personal protection if attacked.  The US has bases all around the world, on every continent and nowhere near your borders.  You don't need one in Canada because our PM has sold his soul and with our need for that all important trading partner status, our various governments over the years will have been very careful not to poke our neighbour with too sharp a stick.

Which reasonable and brilliant man did Putin (and Europe) chose not to work with?


----------



## metasegue (Nov 19, 2014)

*Debby,

The geopolitical complexities of modern diplomacy boggle the mind. The "Big Picture" usually isn't visible for many years due to the inherently secret nature of clandestine activities. I don't spend a lot of time guessing about motives and subtle clues. I prefer our (Western) system to the Eastern. Ours is relatively open...theirs is repressive. There is no free (competitive) media in Russia or China...only state sanctioned outlets. I don't respect dictatorial governments.

When Obama was elected, we all hoped for tremendous change...here and elsewhere. I believe he gave it his best shot. Congress, Europe, and the East blew it.

I'm having technical problems accessing the format tools, highlighting, typing, and posting. I'll figure it out. Meanwhile...peace.*


----------

