# Wind power and birds



## dbeyat45 (Nov 26, 2013)

*Guilty plea in bird deaths at wind farms a first*



_WASHINGTON  (AP) - A major U.S. power company has pleaded guilty to killing eagles  and other birds at two Wyoming wind farms and agreed to pay $1 million  as part of the first enforcement of environmental laws protecting birds  against wind energy facilities.

Until the settlement announced  Friday with Duke Energy Corp. and its renewable energy arm, not a single  wind energy company had been prosecuted for a death of an eagle or  other protected bird - even though each death is a violation of federal  law, unless a company has a federal permit. Not a single wind energy  facility has obtained a permit.

The Charlotte, N.C.-based company  pleaded guilty to killing 14 eagles and 149 other birds at its Top of  the World and Campbell Hill wind farms outside Casper, Wyo. All the  deaths, which included golden eagles, hawks, blackbirds, wrens and  sparrows, occurred from 2009 to 2013.

"Wind energy is not green  if it is killing hundreds of thousands of birds," said George Fenwick,  president of the American Bird Conservancy, which supports properly  sited wind farms. "The unfortunate reality is that the flagrant  violations of the law seen in this case are widespread."

There  could be more enforcement. The Fish and Wildlife Service is  investigating 18 bird-death cases involving wind-power facilities, and  about a half-dozen have been referred to the Justice Department.

Wind  farms are clusters of turbines as tall as 30-story buildings, with  spinning rotors as wide as a passenger jet's wingspan. Though the blades  appear to move slowly, they can reach speeds up to 170 mph at the tips,  creating tornado-like vortexes. Eagles are especially vulnerable  because they don't look up as they scan the ground for food, failing to  notice the blades until it's too late.

....................... cont._ 
http://www.myfoxny.com/story/24050658/guilty-plea-in-bird-deaths-at-wind-farms-a-first


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## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2013)

So they killed an average of 32 birds per year. There would have to be over 6,000 wind farms with the same mortality rates in order to meet Mr. Fenwick's "hundreds of thousands" number.

Appeal to emotions. Minus points. Inaccurate maths. Minus more points.

It would be interesting to see how much power was produced by these farms and graph it against the bird deaths, to see how much energy (and by extension, cost) each bird is worth.

... or is that just wrong? 

Let's see ... 60,000 megawatts total wind power produced in the U.S. in the 3rd quarter of 2013 divided by 200,000 birds (Mr. Fenwick said "hundreds of thousands" but didn't give an exact number, so I'm assuming lowest -case scenario) = 300,000 watts per bird = 300 kilowatts per bird @ $0.12/KWH (national average) = *$36 per bird*.

*That's $7.2 million of birds per year for producing $7.2 BILLION worth of electricity.*

*ETA: WAIT!*

I used quarterly figures for the electricity produced, but yearly figures for the birds. That means ...

One-quarter of the bird price = $9/bird = *$1.8 million worth of birds for $28.8 billion worth of electricity. 

$0.006 of bird for every dollar of electricity.
*


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## RedRibbons (Nov 26, 2013)

I just wish Duke Energy could find a way to keep squirrels off their lines, as the tree rats use their lines in order to jump on my house, and cause havoc. I don't like them.


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## RedRibbons (Nov 26, 2013)

Not to make light of the situation, because I really do like birds. But, have you ever considered how many wild birds are killed each year, by cats who are let outside?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2013)

RedRibbons said:


> Not to make light of the situation, because I really do like birds. But, have you ever considered how many wild birds are killed each year, by cats who are let outside?



... and shot by hunters and eaten by other birds and poisoned by farmers and that fly into windows and ... 

I hold all life as sacred, but there comes a time when you have to weigh consequences. Continue to rape the Earth by pulling the limited supply of oil out of it, or start building on renewable sources. 

Maybe they could build huge birdcages around the turbines to keep the birds out ... nthego:


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm an animal lover, and I'm sure that many are killed by many things made by people, like windmills, airplanes, cars, etc.  Guess it would be nice if the wind turbines had some kind of protective cover to keep birds out, don't know if that's reasonable.  How many birds and other animals are killed by pesticides and weed killers like RoundUp.  Little too much attention to the loss of some birds, IMO.


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## RedRibbons (Nov 26, 2013)

I don't know about you, but I have weeds, and other wild stuff on my land, and nothing but a strong weed killer will kill it. Me killing this stuff, has not harmed any birds. I wish there was something that would kill snakes, but there is nothing like that. Yes, I know they are Supposed to eat mice and rats. They have not done that on my property, as those vermin are abundant around here.


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## RedRibbons (Nov 26, 2013)

And also, black snakes around my property kill and eat baby birds in their nests. I know this for a fact.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 26, 2013)

I just have a normal yard, so no weed killers here, because I don't want to use anything toxic that may hurt my pets.  I've pulled them cowboy style, and used boiled salt water for spot treatments in cracks of walkways, etc.  You don't really know if you harmed any birds, that would be hard to track.  We have snakes too, small snakes and bull snakes, but only kill the rattlers.


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## RedRibbons (Nov 26, 2013)

I know I have not killed any birds. I am happy you have such tame weeds you only need the so called Natural treatments to get rid of them. Heck, I cannot even kill English Ivy with strong weed killer here. You must not live in the South, as we have very tough weeds, and other wild stuff that grows here, almost impossible to get rid of. I hope none of the "Harmless" snakes ever come into your house, and crawl up on your bed while you are sleeping.


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## Happyflowerlady (Nov 26, 2013)

I really think that this is a big fuss that is just to stop the wind turbines. There have always been accidental animal injuries and death from any method of power generation. 
Dams completely mess up the fish spawning, since they have almost an impossibility to get back up the dam to the spawning areas, and as water levels are raised and lowered, this also affects the fish, and other creatures that live near the water, not to mention the birds that fish for food nearby.

Birds, squirrels, and other wildlife are killed by the electricity in the power poles, and trees are stripped out of the woods to make a path for the high-rise electrical towers that cross the country.
Miners die each year from coal mining accidents, so it is not just animals and birds that suffer from power generation.

When you look at all of the total picture, the actual loss of birds from flying into wind turbines, is truly a small cost for the electricity it can produce, while doing no other damage to our earth, as most of the other forms of power production cause.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 26, 2013)

RedRibbons said:


> I know I have not killed any birds. I am happy you have such tame weeds you only need the so called Natural treatments to get rid of them. Heck, I cannot even kill English Ivy with strong weed killer here. You must not live in the South, as we have very tough weeds, and other wild stuff that grows here, almost impossible to get rid of. I hope none of the "Harmless" snakes ever come into your house, and crawl up on your bed while you are sleeping.



I'm in Colorado, and really not fussy about the weeds in my yard...anything that covers the dirt and avoids mud during snows and rains is okay by me. layful:  I did have a snake in my house years back, and killed it with a shovel, also one in my garage around a week ago that had the cat's attention.  I only worry about the poisonous ones, my dog was bitten by a rattlesnake a long time ago and needed emergency care.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2013)

RedRibbons said:


> I know I have not killed any birds.



Not to beat a dead horse, but _how_ do you know? Do you make monthly bird-counts? 

It's the old problem of proving a negative - one can prove that they DID kill some birds, but how does one prove they did NOT?


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 27, 2013)

Happyflowerlady said:


> [ Snip ]
> When you look at all of the total picture, the actual loss of birds from flying into wind turbines, is truly a small cost for the electricity it can produce, while doing no other damage to our earth, as most of the other forms of power production cause.


You will get some arguments about the "no other damage" bit from some quarters HFL.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2013)

dbeyat45 said:


> You will get some arguments about the "no other damage" bit from some quarters HFL.



What, the vibrations? The high (or low, depending who you talk to) frequency noise?


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## RedRibbons (Nov 27, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but _how_ do you know? Do you make monthly bird-counts?
> 
> It's the old problem of proving a negative - one can prove that they DID kill some birds, but how does one prove they did NOT?



Haaa, you love to argue, don't you? I don't have to prove anything. I did not kill any birds, pure and simple.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2013)

RedRibbons said:


> Haaa, you love to argue, don't you? I don't have to prove anything. I did not kill any birds, pure and simple.



It isn't arguing - it's just good debate etiquette.

When you make a statement such as you did on a discussion forum, it's usually good to have the ability to prove it when questioned, that's all. 

I could come out and say "I never kicked a dog", but if asked to prove it I would be hard pressed - there IS no way to prove that I did NOT kick a dog at least once in my life. I might KNOW I never kicked one, but I could never PROVE it, and therefore I wouldn't use it in my defense on a forum.


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## RedRibbons (Nov 27, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> It isn't arguing - it's just good debate etiquette.
> 
> When you make a statement such as you did on a discussion forum, it's usually good to have the ability to prove it when questioned, that's all.
> 
> I could come out and say "I never kicked a dog", but if asked to prove it I would be hard pressed - there IS no way to prove that I did NOT kick a dog at least once in my life. I might KNOW I never kicked one, but I could never PROVE it, and therefore I wouldn't use it in my defense on a forum.




Haaa, you are funny even though you don't make much sense.


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## GDAD (Nov 27, 2013)

How many planes have hit birds

http://www.flightradar24.com/38,246.62/5


when opened click yellow plane on right of screen.


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 27, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> What, the vibrations? The high (or low, depending who you talk to) frequency noise?



How about production methods and subsidies and rare earth minerals and mining practices?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2013)

dbeyat45 said:


> How about production methods and subsidies and rare earth minerals and mining practices?



I'm sorry, you've lost me ...


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## Jackie22 (Nov 27, 2013)

This company did not follow the guidelines in locating the wind farms thus the fine, as the article states, there is no getting around the death of birds, but if the guidelines are followed the numbers will be reduced.

Renewable energy sources trumps birds....as it should.


http://ens-newswire.com/2013/11/25/ameriscan-nov-25-2013/


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 27, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> I'm sorry, you've lost me ...



Does not surprise me .... research the subject Phil.


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 27, 2013)

University of Colorado:
[h=2]Study shows wind turbines killed 600,000 bats last year[/h]http://www.ucdenver.edu/about/newsr...nd-turbines-killed-600000-bats-last-year.aspx


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## Judi.D (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank you Phil and others. I appreciate the intellectual stimulation. It helps me see both sides of many things and makes me think. Though that is a little difficult this morning with only one cup of coffee.


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 27, 2013)

Judi.D said:


> Thank you Phil and others. I appreciate the intellectual stimulation. It helps me see both sides of many things and makes me think. Though that is a little difficult this morning with only one cup of coffee.



Have another cup Judi and consider this too:
[h=2]Are global wind power resource estimates overstated?[/h]http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/1/015021/


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## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2013)

dbeyat45 said:


> Does not surprise me .... research the subject Phil.



Sorry - unless it's of world-shaking importance or I'm getting paid for it I don't have the time to do research.


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## Judi.D (Nov 27, 2013)

The bottom line is if I feel strongly enough about something I can find numerous links on the Internet to support my belief. Oil is finite, and we have to develop renewable sources of energy. There is always a trade off to everything. All we can truly hope for is to minimize negative effects as much as possible.


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 28, 2013)

Agree Judi.D.    Oil and coal are both finite resources but - given the will - there is plenty to provide time to sensibly develop alternative energies without rushing headlong into such shockingly inefficient sources such as wind and solar.  Both have to potential to cause the production of MORE carbon dioxide than gas or coal-fired power generation alone.   Geothermal and tide appear to offer much more promise for base load generation.


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## drifter (Nov 28, 2013)

I suppose wind farms are going to be with us and more of them will be installed. I never knew how profitable these wind towers were or are or how much electricity they generated, and still don't, but one of the countries' oil and gas men, Boone Pickens, recently got out of the wind farm business and I believe he also got out of the water business. That tells me buying underground water and re-selling it or the profit from wind farm produced electricity is not as great or as good as other investments. Or  maybe because he's getting up in years he just cleaning up his portfolio. I suppose the point I'm making, going the long way about it, is that not much has ever stood in our way, i.e. damage to the environment, birds, the animal kingdom, nor the human beast, himself, when there is a profit to be made or land to be grabbed. Certainly, a few dead birds is not going to cut it. What do you think?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 28, 2013)

dbeyat45 said:


> Agree Judi.D.    Oil and coal are both finite resources but - given the will - there is plenty to provide time to sensibly develop alternative energies without rushing headlong into such shockingly inefficient sources such as wind and solar.  Both have to potential to cause the production of MORE carbon dioxide than gas or coal-fired power generation alone.   Geothermal and tide appear to offer much more promise for base load generation.



DB, I'd REALLY love to know where you're getting your research from. How in blazes does a wind turbine produce CO2?!? You're looking at second- and third-generation effects, aren't you? Like the mining of rare earth metals used in their production, or the pouring of concrete foundations for the turbines releasing CO2?

Compared to the presently-consumed resources, wind and solar are FAR superior and FAR more efficient. I'm really surprised at your views, as they don't jibe at all with the currently-held opinions of alternative energy ...


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## SifuPhil (Nov 28, 2013)

drifter said:


> I suppose wind farms are going to be with us and more of them will be installed. I never knew how profitable these wind towers were or are or how much electricity they generated, and still don't, but one of the countries' oil and gas men, Boone Pickens, recently got out of the wind farm business and I believe he also got out of the water business. That tells me buying underground water and re-selling it or the profit from wind farm produced electricity is not as great or as good as other investments. Or  maybe because he's getting up in years he just cleaning up his portfolio. I suppose the point I'm making, going the long way about it, is that not much has ever stood in our way, i.e. damage to the environment, birds, the animal kingdom, nor the human beast, himself, when there is a profit to be made or land to be grabbed. Certainly, a few dead birds is not going to cut it. What do you think?



I'm not surprised that Pickens is getting out of the field, since he probably got an offer he couldn't refuse from the coal-and-oil boys. If there's no profit in it he isn't interested, and at this point of development solar and wind just aren't producing the massive profits that oil and coal are.

I think a few birds is a better price to pay than the one demanded of us by conventional methods.


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## Davey Jones (Nov 28, 2013)

How many airlines have been grounded because they flew into a flock of birds.
Im guessing it happens every single day.


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## Fern (Nov 28, 2013)

Davey Jones said:


> How many airlines have been grounded because they flew into a flock of birds.
> Im guessing it happens every single day.


Not the least to say how many birds are killed by flying into buildings. It's nothing to be sitting at the table to hear a bird crash into the window, on the ground floor.


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## maxHR (Nov 28, 2013)

Why aren't motorists also charged for killing wildlife with motor vehicles, aka roadkill. Also the owners of transmission lines-many birds and bats die flying into them as well. Also the owners of big shiny windows on houses, - many birds fly into them and kill themselves.


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## Fern (Nov 28, 2013)

maxHR said:


> Why aren't motorists also charged for killing wildlife with motor vehicles, aka roadkill. Also the owners of transmission lines-many birds and bats die flying into them as well. Also the owners of big shiny windows on houses, - many birds fly into them and kill themselves.


How do you know the windows are big & shiny.


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## Tom Young (Nov 28, 2013)

Would be curious to know how much experience anyone here has with windmill farms...  here's an older one that starts a few miles from our home... In a 30 mile radius I'm sure we have well over 1,000 towers... An awesome sight. 
Mostly on farmland... the only disruption in farming comes from the roads between towers.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendota_Hills_Wind_Farm

Where we used to live... Martha's Vineyard... between there and Nantucket, the battle for offshore wind farms, is still being fought... 15 years later.  http://www.capewind.org/index.php 

RE: birds... Since most birds are territorial, after the initial installation of the towers, there is a rapid drop in the number of bird deaths.   
As to the sound... you have to be pretty close, to hear the wooshing sound, and that only occurs in medium and above winds.
After the initial shock of seeing so many windmills, it becomes a non event, and actually quite pleasant. 

What price progress?  Replace cheap oil with fracking?  Solar?  Who remembers the snail darter?  Some where, some time, some one will develop a rating system for quantifying environmental cost and energy.   Until then, the battle of emotions and personal interests will continue. 
windmills and birds
fracking and clean water
pipelines and oil spills
pesticides and crops and bees
rainforests and tree products
fishing and dying oceans

Wealth and quality of life.


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