# Draft



## Been There (Jun 5, 2020)

This is strictly a hypothetical question because as we all know that our armed services have been well populated for some time now, but it still remains a question that keeps coming to mind, especially during these troubled times and I just wanted to get some of you veterans out there that are still around and fought in the Vietnam War, or maybe the Korean War, or even WWII your opinion. *Do you think the U.S. would be better off with having every young man (18 to 20)  serve in one of the Armed Forces of their choice or if there is not a need in the one they chose, they would have to report to the one that would be assigned to them? If they are not drafted by the age of 20, they would not be called on to serve. This may or may not be a lottery system.*

Do you believe that by serving in the military that it would make them a better person? By better, I mean, more knowledgeable of patriotism, loyalty, commitment, respectfulness and of course maturity and add character.

I would also suggest that prior to the start of sports games that we should have a moment of silence, which would allow anyone who wishes to take a knee, to do so. After that moment of silence, we would then have the playing of the National Anthem. Standing while the National Anthem is being played is just not showing respect for the flag, but also to *honor* the tens of thousands of men and women that gave their life, so that we can have the freedoms that we have today. Why must it be done during the National Anthem? Does it really make a difference? 

I would appreciate hearing from the ladies as well. I know many women who have served in the Armed Forces and have done so diligently and respectfully. The ladies that work on the decks of the carriers perform their jobs every bit as well as the men.


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## jujube (Jun 5, 2020)

I never served, but I'm the daughter, widow and girlfriend of veterans.

I think service was the salvation of many a young man through the years, young men who didn't know their direction in life and just needed a nudge.  

It was  also the ruination of many a life.  I'm not talking about loss of life, even though that's the ultimate dead end.  I'm talking about the young men who came home from Viet Nam with drug addictions and the young men who came home from Desert Storm and Afghanistan and Iraq and all the other "sh!t storms" with their compasses pointing in the wrong direction or their limbs missing.

I hope we never need another draft.


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## MarciKS (Jun 5, 2020)

i never could've survived the physical training of it all anyway. but, i might not have been a bad shot. i would've been handy in the mess hall.


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## Don M. (Jun 5, 2020)

I think every Able Bodied young person should be obligated to serve 2 years in some sort of National/Community service.  That would be a great introduction to "reality"....which is so lacking in many of our young.


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## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

I thought it was about  beer


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 5, 2020)

jujube said:


> I never served, but I'm the daughter, widow and girlfriend of veterans.
> 
> I think service was the salvation of many a young man through the years, young men who didn't know their direction in life and just needed a nudge.
> 
> ...


I oppose the draft.  If given enough motivation, many young people would enlist - they did in the past and would do it in the future.  I saw the Vietnam draft decimate my peers, either physically, socially, or emotionally.  "What are we fighting for"  (song line).  None of them approved of our country's involvement.  Many tried to dodge the draft.  Many went to Canada.  Others who ended up there came home severely damaged.  

Why take our children, who have just reached a major life milestone?  In my opinion, we could make the military just another job option - a lucrative one, offering good pay and benefits and job security - and open it up to older people!  There are plenty of able-bodied grown-ups who would welcome this opportunity.  (Perhaps the age limits have more to do with our established personalities and potential to challenge authority?)


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## Lewkat (Jun 5, 2020)

I agree with Don M.  The service teaches responsibility and believe it or not, racial tensions rarely exist since all are taught that not only are they brothers and sisters in arms, but they can rely on each have the other's back.  The discipline teaches restraint as well, for it certainly is lacking in civilian life.  As a perk, for each 2 years served, the government could offer and form of the G.I. Bill.  Such as, one year of the college or technical school of their choice tuition, books and housing with meals free..  Plus a stipend.  Pretty good deal.


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## Ruthanne (Jun 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I thought it was about  beer


I'll have one!


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## MarciKS (Jun 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I thought it was about  beer


that's another thread.


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## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> that's another thread.


You’re kidding?


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## MarciKS (Jun 5, 2020)

no seriously...i have a drink thread. lol!


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 6, 2020)

IMO everyone should be required to register for the draft but the draft should only be used against an extreme threat to our country.

I also believe that a period of national service has been and continues to be a valuable path for many young people to get a start in life.

It's my hope that with all of the technology available today the traditional boots on the ground foot soldier will become a thing of the past and that our country's human resources can be put to much better use in serving our nation and its people.


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## squatting dog (Jun 6, 2020)

Current *law* requires that with a few exceptions, every male citizen and immigrant (documented or undocumented) between the ages of 18-25 is required to *register* with the *Selective* *Service*. Men are required to *register *during a 60 day registration period, within 30 days of their 18th birthday (30 days before until 29 days after their 18th birthday).


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 6, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO everyone should be required to register for the draft but the draft should only be used against an extreme threat to our country.
> 
> I also believe that a period of national service has been and continues to be a valuable path for many young people to get a start in life.
> 
> It's my hope that with all of the technology available today the traditional boots on the ground foot soldier will become a thing of the past and that our country's human resources can be put to much better use in serving our nation and its people.


I agree with you, with the sole exception of registering for the draft.  If there was a *legitimate*, extreme threat to our country, we would all stand up, sign up, and go into a defensive posture.  I don't believe drafting our youngsters would be required to fill the ranks.


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## tbeltrans (Jun 6, 2020)

My belief is that people born into the freedoms the US offers its citizens, would more appreciate the cost of those freedoms (and holler less about "their rights") if they had to serve in some capacity to protect those freedoms.  I leave open what that "some capacity" should be and am just putting forth the idea.  I don't think that having to go through another Vietnam is the way to teach the value of those freedoms, but wars prior to that were.  However, there could well be many other avenues other than war in which to productively use young folks' time and effort.

Tony


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## Been There (Jun 6, 2020)

So, what I get from reading your posts is that I didn't explain myself very well, but I have found your posts to be very interesting and helpful with writing my op-ed piece for a tabloid that would not interest anyone on this forum. (Trust me.) I promise not to use any of your descriptive names. 

My objective was to get viewpoints of having a draft, but leave out the thoughts that we would be drafting to send young men and ladies just out of high school overseas to fight a war. The average age of the Vietnam era draftee was 19, while the average age of the draftee for WWII was 26. So, I failed at that. I apologize for not doing a better job.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 6, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Current *law* requires that with a few exceptions, every male citizen and immigrant (documented or undocumented) between the ages of 18-25 is required to *register* with the *Selective* *Service*. Men are required to *register *during a 60 day registration period, within 30 days of their 18th birthday (30 days before until 29 days after their 18th birthday).


I had no idea that is the case. I read long ago todays' army is too technical for a draft similar like we had.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 6, 2020)

Ready Five said:


> So, what I get from reading your posts is that I didn't explain myself very well, but I have found your posts to be very interesting and helpful with writing my op-ed piece for a tabloid that would not interest anyone on this forum. (Trust me.) I promise not to use any of your descriptive names.
> 
> My objective was to get viewpoints of having a draft, but leave out the thoughts that we would be drafting to send young men and ladies just out of high school overseas to fight a war. The average age of the Vietnam era draftee was 19, while the average age of the draftee for WWII was 26. So, I failed at that. I apologize for not doing a better job.


It gave us all a chance to vent, so no issues here!


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## squatting dog (Jun 6, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> I had no idea that is the case. I read long ago todays' army is too technical for a draft similar like we had.



Yeah, I didn't know they still did it either until about a week ago while waiting at the DMV, I saw the poster reminding people to sign up.


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## Been There (Jun 6, 2020)

No one has been drafted into the military since 1972. The registration is used now only in case of a national emergency.


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## Been There (Jun 6, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Yeah, I didn't know they still did it either until about a week ago while waiting at the DMV, I saw the poster reminding people to sign up.


I remember once when I was in San Diego and attended Topgun and we would go into the city to have a little fun, this Mexican came up to me and said that he had a green card to be in the U.S. and he wanted to know if he had to register with the Selective Service. I told him that I really didn't know, but why take a chance? If you have a green card, go in and register.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 6, 2020)

Ready Five said:


> I remember once when I was in San Diego and attended Topgun and we would go into the city to have a little fun, this Mexican came up to me and said that he had a green card to be in the U.S. and he wanted to know if he had to register with the Selective Service. I told him that I really didn't know, but why take a chance? If you have a green card, go in and register.


As I understand it, registration is required - but, I don't believe that applies to holders of green cards - That's more of a work/school visitor's  permit, not citizenship.  I could be wrong!


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## squatting dog (Jun 6, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> As I understand it, registration is required - but, I don't believe that applies to holders of green cards - That's more of a work/school visitor's  permit, not citizenship.  I could be wrong!



"immigrant" (documented or undocumented)  is part of the federal law. That would include green card holders since they are immigrant's.
Found it....... 

Federal law requires that men who are at least 18 years old, but not yet 26 years old, must be registered with Selective Service. This includes all male non-citizens within these age limits who *permanently* reside in the United States. Men with "Green Cards" (lawful permanent residents) must register. Men living in the United States without USCIS documentation (undocumented aliens) must also register. But men cannot register after reaching age 26. 

A male non-citizen who first enters the U.S. as a permanent resident after he has already passed his 26th birthday is not required to register because he is over the age limit. Non-immigrant men who are in the U.S. temporarily (diplomatic corps, trade mission personnel, men holding valid visitor or student visas, etc.) do not register. Women do not register because the law does not apply to them.


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## Sassycakes (Jun 6, 2020)

Don M. said:


> I think every Able Bodied young person should be obligated to serve 2 years in some sort of National/Community service.  That would be a great introduction to "reality"....which is so lacking in many of our young.



*I agree with you Don M. My Husband got drafted a few months before we got married. It was during the Viet Nam War. Today we are living in a crazy world and some of the leaders of our countries are crazy. I would hate for my grandsons to get drafted. I wouldn't mind if they were obligated to do some kind of community service.*


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## Ruthanne (Jun 6, 2020)

It would be nice to live in a world where we didn't have to have a draft because there was no war.  Ever.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 6, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> "immigrant" (documented or undocumented)  is part of the federal law. That would include green card holders since they are immigrant's.
> Found it.......
> 
> Federal law requires that men who are at least 18 years old, but not yet 26 years old, must be registered with Selective Service. This includes all male non-citizens within these age limits who *permanently* reside in the United States. Men with "Green Cards" (lawful permanent residents) must register. Men living in the United States without USCIS documentation (undocumented aliens) must also register. But men cannot register after reaching age 26.
> ...


Thank you, Squatting Dog!  That really clears it up!


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## Been There (Jun 7, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> "immigrant" (documented or undocumented)  is part of the federal law. That would include green card holders since they are immigrant's.
> Found it.......
> 
> Federal law requires that men who are at least 18 years old, but not yet 26 years old, must be registered with Selective Service. This includes all male non-citizens within these age limits who *permanently* reside in the United States. Men with "Green Cards" (lawful permanent residents) must register. Men living in the United States without USCIS documentation (undocumented aliens) must also register. But men cannot register after reaching age 26.
> ...


I learned this about 2 weeks after I had given my Mexican friend the wrong information. While I’m writing this, it comes to mind how many legal Mexicans want to serve in the U.S. military. In some ways, I find them to be more patriotic to the U.S. compared to some who are naturalized.


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## JaniceM (Jun 7, 2020)

Been There said:


> So, what I get from reading your posts is that I didn't explain myself very well, but I have found your posts to be very interesting and helpful with writing my op-ed piece for a tabloid that would not interest anyone on this forum. (Trust me.) I promise not to use any of your descriptive names.
> 
> My objective was to get viewpoints of having a draft, but leave out the thoughts that we would be drafting to send young men and ladies just out of high school overseas to fight a war. The average age of the Vietnam era draftee was 19, while the average age of the draftee for WWII was 26. So, I failed at that. I apologize for not doing a better job.



Well, if you're using people on this forum for research, it would be nice to be given the facts about what you're doing.


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## Been There (Jun 7, 2020)

No research. I just wanted to start a thread so maybe people would get to know me a little better. I wanted to chose a topic for discussion that maybe would interest at least some people.

My last conversation before I retired with my boss was about the draft. Some of the comments that he made kind of stuck in my head and I wondered if civilians felt the same way. I never really knew much about it until after I was asked the question from a Mexican that was painting my house. That's when I went into the local draft board at the time and got the lowdown on how it works.

I have spent most of my life in the military, both as an Officer and later as a Civilian. I have lived in Northern Virginia the past several years, but have traveled extensively as well as lived in a lot of different areas for short periods of time. 

I kind of took a liking to the Mexican that was painting my condo and I decided to have a conversation with him. Next thing that I knew, we were going to baseball games and fishing together. He was a great guy who turned out to be a great friend. Then I had to move and we lost contact with one another. 

This was my second thread and I have come to the conclusion that I may have offended some people or that there may be a general lack of distrust for me, so I have decided to keep a low profile for awhile and maybe comeback later.


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## Pecos (Jun 7, 2020)

Been There said:


> This is strictly a hypothetical question because as we all know that our armed services have been well populated for some time now, but it still remains a question that keeps coming to mind, especially during these troubled times and I just wanted to get some of you veterans out there that are still around and fought in the Vietnam War, or maybe the Korean War, or even WWII your opinion. *Do you think the U.S. would be better off with having every young man (18 to 20)  serve in one of the Armed Forces of their choice or if there is not a need in the one they chose, they would have to report to the one that would be assigned to them? If they are not drafted by the age of 20, they would not be called on to serve. This may or may not be a lottery system.*
> 
> Do you believe that by serving in the military that it would make them a better person? By better, I mean, more knowledgeable of patriotism, loyalty, commitment, respectfulness and of course maturity and add character.
> 
> ...


I was in the Navy for 31 years from 1960 to 1991 and even after reflecting on your question for a couple of days, I still have to say that there is no easy answer, and there may be lots of unintended consequences.

That said:

- I think that being required to register for the draft is a good idea and should apply to both men and women.
- Actually drafting our young people should only be done when there is an absolute necessity.
- I agree that young people who serve in the military do acquire a better appreciation, unless they are force in for no real reason. WWI and WWII, and maybe the Korean War were valid reasons, but Vietnam and most of the subsequent little Wars were not.
- I don't like the idea of using the military as some kind of social experiment to "square away" our young people by forcing them to serve is valid. Saddling high quality young service members with having to serve and live with troubled kids who have been forced into their unit is a disruption to them and to the leadership. (I was enlisted from 1960 to 1970 and had to put up with them.)
- It is expensive to train and retain high quality people and we should make the service a more attractive option.
- We should also make it easier for people to leave, with benefits, before the magic 20 years. I breaks my heart every time I meet someone who had to get out before being able to take a normal retirement and they get very little. They have worked on this, but they need to do even more.

I will stay away from the "taking a knee issue."


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2020)

I don't think military service "makes the man". It's not a reform school. What turns wayward youths into productive adults is age. You grow out of that sh***. I don't believe that a military career produces any better individuals than if that effort was addressed in  any another careers. It's the man that makes the job, and not the other way around. And before I get hung by my toenails: "man"=females, too.


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## Been There (Jun 10, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I don't think military service "makes the man". It's not a reform school. What turns wayward youths into productive adults is age. You grow out of that sh***. I don't believe that a military career produces any better individuals than if that effort was addressed in  any another careers. It's the man that makes the job, and not the other way around. And before I get hung by my toenails: "man"=females, too.


My best response to your post is: yes and no. For me to explain my answer would make too long of a post.

I will just say this much for now. If a young 18 year old man or lady would enter the Marines, I would like to believe that they would learn certain life requirements at a earlier age. Like: self confidence, being respectful, self discipline and leadership, as well as becoming physically fit. I have young men ask me if Marine boot camp is as bad as they hear about. I tell them it’s probably worse. The Marines have one single goal for you in boot. They will tear you down and then rebuild you to their liking. But, after 13 weeks, you will be in the best shape in your life.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 16, 2020)

Been There.  I was referring to the practice of offering very troubled youth the choice of  a lengthy prison  term, or the Marine Corps.  Yes, Marines have all the qualities you mentioned.  Boot camp does  create good Marines. But, not everybody is a good Marine.. As brig Corpsman, it was  not uncommon for the men in there for serous crimes ,to also have multiple felonies as minors. And most  'career' criminals age out of criminal behavior in their late 30s. ,40s.


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## 911 (Jun 24, 2020)

As far as I know, if you have been charged and found guilty of a felony or, in some cases, a misdemeanor, you cannot enlist in the Marines. As for the draft, I didn’t know any Marines that were drafted during my time, but I do know that the Marines did some very minimal drafting. 
I did know some kids that I went to school with and were drafted that came home a lot better of a person than before they left. The service does build character and it teaches men to be more confident.


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## jerry old (Jul 8, 2020)

I always been apprehensive of the Joint Chief's of Staff and those in the Pentagon.
A military coup cannot happen in America.

Well, I hope not, but I feel draftees would be a deterrent; an all volunteer army has
a vested interest in following orders.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 28, 2020)

Like I said, the draft should be for all  abled body citizens 18 & over-including women. I don't buy the I concept women are these delicate, fragile creatures, who would faint in combat. Your average woman can kill just as well as your average male. And, in my world, there would be no deferments., nor exemptions. I remember in the 60s, in the US, married men were exempt from the draft. Men 'married' women on paper to get out of the draft. On their 27th birthday ( the age when they were too 'old ' for being drafted, they had quickie Mexican divorces. I knew several man, who evaded the draft in that way.


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## JaniceM (Jul 28, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Like I said, the draft should be for all  abled body citizens 18 & over-including women. I don't buy the I concept women are these delicate, fragile creatures, who would faint in combat. Your average woman can kill just as well as your average male. And, in my world, there would be no deferments., nor exemptions. I remember in the 60s, in the US, married men were exempt from the draft. Men 'married' women on paper to get out of the draft. On their 27th birthday ( the age when they were too 'old ' for being drafted, they had quickie Mexican divorces. I knew several man, who evaded the draft in that way.


When in the 60s was that?  One of my brothers was married when he got drafted.


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## Della (Aug 26, 2020)

Until August 1965 being married was enough to keep a man from being drafted, after that he had to have a child, or a college deferment (if his grades dropped he was n trouble) or be a CO, or have a disability, or be a homosexual, or go to Canada.  To name a few. Phil Ochs


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## Nathan (Aug 31, 2020)

Don M. said:


> I think every Able Bodied young person should be obligated to serve 2 years in some sort of National/Community service.  That would be a great introduction to "reality"....which is so lacking in many of our young.



My view as well.


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## JaniceM (Aug 31, 2020)

Della said:


> Until August 1965 being married was enough to keep a man from being drafted, after that he had to have a child, or a college deferment (if his grades dropped he was n trouble) or be a CO, or have a disability, or be a homosexual, or go to Canada.  To name a few. Phil Ochs


Oh, that explains it.  Thanks for the info.  I think it was 1969.


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## fuzzybuddy (Sep 2, 2020)

To be honest, I don't believe serving in the Armed Forces "makes a better person". out of you. Most are between 18 and 24, when they enter. I believe it is the natural aging process, rather than military training that accounts for supposedly "better" people. But one thing I can say is the when the military trains someone, they expect the person to perform, and they rely on that person. It's why an 18 year old is steering a multibillion dollar carrier.


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