# 11 killed by terrorists at satirical newspaper in Paris! called for



## Ralphy1 (Jan 7, 2015)

Just can't get a day of good news without some outrageous act occurring.  A crackdown is should be swift before another attack.  Perhaps they need a Gitmo and some serious immigration and deportation of suspected extremists.  You should be with me on taking a tough stance even if the rights of some may be violated...


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## Vivjen (Jan 7, 2015)

Free speech has been violated by this attack...


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 7, 2015)

Absolutely, and some freedoms for some must be impinged upon, and soon!


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 7, 2015)

*serious immigration and deportation of suspected extremists*

You hit the nail on the head there!!


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 7, 2015)




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## hollydolly (Jan 7, 2015)

These barbaric terrorists actions are a clear attempt to cow down and curtail the freedom of the press, and of course that's exactly what will happen now.

These animals were and are clearly  professional killers not some random nutter , and knew exactly what they were doing.

This will plunge France into Mourning for a long time. An absolutely horrendous act of cold blooded  murder of 12 people people, mainly journalists at work and policemen trying to protect them

May you Murdering Bar stewards rot in hell !!!


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## WhatInThe (Jan 7, 2015)

This is an affront to anyone living in a country with a free press and right to speak and/or read their opinion. 

France needs to bring back the guillotine just for this scum.

Now they are reporting a car bomb at a synagogue in Paris.

NOTE-Here are some of the cartoons that this Muslim scum pile panties in a big knot.

http://www.ibtimes.com/charlie-hebd...rtoons-may-have-caused-paris-magazine-1775898 ( hows your French)

Visually it doesn't look different than many political or satirical cartoons. The verbage can't be much different either.


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## Don M. (Jan 7, 2015)

This is what happens when there is a "Religion" that teaches "Death to All Infidels".  At some point, us Infidels are going to have to stop being "Politically Correct".


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## kcvet (Jan 7, 2015)

that's open door immigration at work. just let em pour in


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 7, 2015)

kcvet said:


> that's open door immigration at work. just let em pour in


Ditto... ..More to come in other countries (sad to say this)


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## WhatInThe (Jan 7, 2015)

Some Charlie Hebdo cartoons in English or with English translation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U56q428amN0

Apparently some in US media too afraid or too politically correct to publish, show or interpret these cartoons.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media...o-we-are-not-at-this-time-showing-200711.html


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## WhatInThe (Jan 7, 2015)

*Shooters/suspects ID'd as two brothers and another man*

The shooters/suspects have been identified including two brothers of Algerian decent. One of the brothers has a criminal record including associating with a terrorist enterprise.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...e-charlie-hebdo-satirical-publisher/21377861/

The French abandoned Algeria in the late 50s/early 60s which upset many French soldiers who were there for years(movie/book Day Of The Jackal)-true. The news said today the elder Algerians are not a problem it is the young ones.

Two brothers-again and where did at least one of the brothers get professionally trained?


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## Warrigal (Jan 7, 2015)

The French are America's oldest ally
Obama has expressed solidarity.
What say the rest of Americans?

 ?


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 7, 2015)

Ron Paul, former Republican presidential candidate on the Paris attack, he says, and I agree, bad foreign policy invites retaliation...see the video...http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczy...d-foreign-policy-invites-retaliat#.xqj8ayED7j


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## Butterfly (Jan 8, 2015)

I read that France has very strict gun control in place.  Yet the bad guys still get guns . . . .


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 8, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I read that France has very strict gun control in place.  Yet the bad guys still get guns . . . .



So does Chicago!!


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## Geezerette (Jan 8, 2015)

The Pauls  talk gibberish. Always ready to blame, never any practical solutions. Their whole motto is "yer doin it wrong". Glad they are entitled to free speech. Just makes them look "stupider". My opinions on what should be done to groups supporting terroir is that they should be eliminated. I'm done being politically correct. Just very angry.


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## Debby (Jan 8, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I read that France has very strict gun control in place.  Yet the bad guys still get guns . . . .




Bad guys will always get guns no matter what, but responding to the criticism about 'gun control', I'll bet France doesn't have instances of two year old's shooting their mothers in the local shopping mall.


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## Debby (Jan 8, 2015)

Geezerette said:


> The Pauls  talk gibberish. Always ready to blame, never any practical solutions. Their whole motto is "yer doin it wrong". Glad they are entitled to free speech. Just makes them look "stupider". My opinions on what should be done to groups supporting terroir is that they should be eliminated. I'm done being politically correct. Just very angry.




Do you have a problem with figuring out the 'reasons' that people do bad things?  After stopping a bad action to prevent further harm, isn't the second step the need to figure out the reasons the bad action happens so that you can prevent it from happening again.  

Ron Paul is merely pointing out the 'why'.  Instead of just advocating more 'get in there and blow them up' repeatedly......and making more terrorists because the people get angry after burying their families....they suggest that maybe your own and Frances (and Canada's to head off the accusations) foreign policies are where the buck stops in the blame game.


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## oakapple (Jan 8, 2015)

I think it's mainly French farmers who have guns [a bit like here.]What happened in Paris is a terrible thing, although I do ask myself why jounalists have to lampoon the prophet M. It's todays Muslim extremists that are the problem, and how would Christians feel about Jesus being treated in this way? We know that groups would be very angry [just not in a homicidal way.]I am all for free speech, but are cartoons/satirical writing necessary?It's just a thought, people, and no, I am not Muslim.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Jesus has been made fun of, too, as he should be...


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## oakapple (Jan 8, 2015)

I don't see why either Jesus or the prophet M should be made fun of, but if people [in the media] want to do it, that is their right, but they do know what kind of outcome there is likely to be [they are not naive, we presume.]


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Authoritarian governments have always tried to control and shape the culture and we have seen the sad results...


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## Debby (Jan 8, 2015)

So maybe then Ralph, it's time authoritarian governments began to start functioning with a little 'sanity' and began learning to get along with the rest of the world.                         

.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Has never happened and never will so long as human nature stays constant as it has since the caveman...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

Debby said:


> Bad guys will always get guns no matter what, but responding to the criticism about 'gun control', I'll bet France doesn't have instances of two year old's shooting their mothers in the local shopping mall.



I agree...   I find the argument "but the criminals will get guns no matter what" to be  ridiculous...   I believe I have said this before... YES  and that's why they are called CRIMINALS!   In addition, following that logic.. perhaps we should eliminate ALL laws because criminal will not follow them anyway?   Perhaps we should NOT have vehicle registration, because some people steal cars to commit crimes.  Perhaps we should do away with drivers licenses, because some people drive without them.    A civilized society governs itself with laws.. without them we have anarchy.. Criminals must be dealt with by the proper authority, and not have everyone running around being the judge and the jury.


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## Vivjen (Jan 8, 2015)

I heard an interesting theory yesterday;
the French; since the revolution; have tended to be less tolerant and more confrontational in the protection of free speech than the UK; hence the cartoons there were not published in UK.
some say they were braver; satirising everything; any religion as well as any subject that they felt was impinging on their free speech.
although many; of all religions; found some of their work offensive; I don't feel that that should lead to a death sentence.
as for bad foreign policy.....no comment.


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## Mike (Jan 8, 2015)

According to the latest reports on the news, these two
brothers were born in Paris.

France is reported to have more Radicals than any other
European country, they also have more travelling to the
Middle East to fight "Jihad".

My ancestry was Irish, yet during the "Troubles" in the
North of Irelend, I never felt like getting training and taking
part on either side, nor did any Priests, Ministers, Vicars etc.,
of the various religions encourage anybody to do so.

I wonder why some in the Muslim Faith encourage this behavior,
it is not the religion that is driving the hate, only a few hot-headed
religious leaders that do, they have got so many riled up, that I think
the normal sane members are afraid to stand up to them as it would
be certain death if they did.

mike.


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## Don M. (Jan 8, 2015)

"I wonder why some in the Muslim Faith Encourage this behavior"............

Religious Fanaticism is, and always has been, a "Hallmark" of most religions at some point in their history.  Islam was founded about 700 years after Christianity, and, as such, Islam is about at the same point that Christianity was during the late Middle Ages...when things like the Spanish Inquisition committed massive atrocities against those who did not adhere to the teachings of its "radicals".  Every religion thinks it has the Answer, and everyone else is wrong.  I think a lot of these extremists are going to be sadly disappointed when they die.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

Don M. said:


> "I wonder why some in the Muslim Faith Encourage this behavior"............
> 
> Religious Fanaticism is, and always has been, a "Hallmark" of most religions at some point in their history.  Islam was founded about 700 years after Christianity, and, as such, Islam is about at the same point that Christianity was during the late Middle Ages...when things like the Spanish Inquisition committed massive atrocities against those who did not adhere to the teachings of its "radicals".  Every religion thinks it has the Answer, and everyone else is wrong.  I think a lot of these extremists are going to be sadly disappointed when they die.



This is true... There is also a section of Christian extremists that feels murder appropriate and justified in the name of God. ..  Ask Dr. George Tiller's family.  There is no difference... only the scope of the violence.


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## Don M. (Jan 8, 2015)

If everyone truly followed the teachings of their religious beliefs, we would be living in Utopia.  However, this "My God is Better than Your God" mentality is the root cause of most of the problems.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 8, 2015)

*Catholic League Blames Magazine*

The president of the Catholic League aka Bill Donohue blames the magazine staff itself which is basically victim blaming/shaming.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/catholic-league-president-muslims-angry-article-1.2069495

See Charlie Hebdo is an equal opportunity satirist, can't have that now can we. Donohue is basically trying to prevent future commentary that might not be too favorable to his organization or his career.

I should add this is the same guy that said the church abuse scandal wasn't about pedophilia but a homosexual crisis in order to rationalize their priests actions. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html


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## Geezerette (Jan 8, 2015)

I don't agree with Debby regarding  the Pauls. Just one more example of "blaming the victim."


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## oakapple (Jan 8, 2015)

Of course, there may well be more to this case than it seems at present; sometimes things are done 'in the name of' something [often religion] but if these men were of Algerian stock, it could be more about the way French society treats them [badly usually.] A bit like the IRA was nothing to do with the difference between Catholics and Protestants [really] but was political.Anyway, I expect it will all come out eventually.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 8, 2015)

Mike said:


> I wonder why some in the Muslim Faith encourage this behavior,
> it is not the religion that is driving the hate, only a few hot-headed
> religious leaders that do, they have got so many riled up, that I think
> the normal sane members are afraid to stand up to them as it would
> be certain death if they did.



I think the Muslim faith has yet to go through the steps to more peaceful acceptance of other's belief, just as the Christians had to years ago. http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Those who create cartoons like that against any religion are just using hate, and that's what they'll get in return right now from these radical Muslims who have enough of being taunted and poked in the eye with a pencil all the time.  I understand the newspaper that was attacked had past issues, so they knew it was a matter of time before the next attack.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but satirists have to reel in the nasty hate against all religions really.  Is all that childish crap really necessary?  Talk about dumbing down America.


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## oakapple (Jan 8, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think the Muslim faith has yet to go through the steps to more peaceful acceptance of other's belief, just as the Christians had to years ago. http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
> 
> Those who create cartoons like that against any religion are just using hate, and that's what they'll get in return right now from these radical Muslims who have enough of being taunted and poked in the eye with a pencil all the time. I understand the newspaper that was attacked had past issues, so they knew it was a matter of time before the next attack. I'm all for freedom of speech, but satirists have to reel in the nasty hate against all religions really. Is all that childish crap really necessary? Talk about dumbing down America.


  Well said, and I agree.


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## Vivjen (Jan 8, 2015)

I disagree to an extent; the French don't regard these cartoons as hate in general; they are much more concerned with the concept of free speech, and freedom of the press.
they have laws against the burka in certain situations; and the far right are rapidly increasing in popularity again, and regard themselves as fiercely independent; even within the EU.
we have been told we are too tolerant.....the Russians have said that the French are too tolerant...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

> Freedom of speech





> Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. The term freedom of expression is sometimes used synonymously, but includes any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.
> 
> Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech



So does this mean... only when what you say does not offend anyone?  Or... does it mean religion is off limits?  Or does it just say "the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas."   The people at Charlie Hebdo KNEW what they were doing was dangerous.  They had been threatened many times..  I suppose they felt strongly enough about the principle of freedom of speech to die for it.


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## Vivjen (Jan 8, 2015)

One of them gave an interview a couple of years ago saying just that....


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> One of them gave an interview a couple of years ago saying just that....



And for them to kow-tow to the demands of the terrorists means the terrorists have won.  That's how they win.. making everyone afraid to to anything that might enrage them and bring retribution.


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## Vivjen (Jan 8, 2015)

Exactly....that is why the French consider the UK to be too tolerant...the latest expression appears to be self-censor; most people do; these cartoonists didn't.


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## Lady (Jan 8, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think the Muslim faith has yet to go through the steps to more peaceful acceptance of other's belief, just as the Christians had to years ago. http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
> 
> Those who create cartoons like that against any religion are just using hate, and that's what they'll get in return right now from these radical Muslims who have enough of being taunted and poked in the eye with a pencil all the time.  I understand the newspaper that was attacked had past issues, so they knew it was a matter of time before the next attack.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but satirists have to reel in the nasty hate against all religions really.  Is all that childish crap really necessary?  Talk about dumbing down America.



i more or less said the same thing on another forum and it was not well received by some .


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> Exactly....that is why the French consider the UK to be too tolerant...the latest expression appears to be self-censor; most people do; these cartoonists didn't.




History is filled with hero's willing to die for their principles..  They have always been seen as trouble makers and foolish to some.  Fortunately for the rest of us, they existed.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 8, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> History is filled with hero's willing to die for their principles..  They have always been seen as trouble makers and foolish to some.  Fortunately for the rest of us, they existed.



I agree. There is self censoring then there is caving into extortion. Sometimes you have to choose live and/or die on principle.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 8, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think the Muslim faith has yet to go through the steps to more peaceful acceptance of other's belief, just as the Christians had to years ago. http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
> 
> Those who create cartoons like that against any religion are just using hate, and that's what they'll get in return right now from these radical Muslims who have enough of being taunted and poked in the eye with a pencil all the time.  I understand the newspaper that was attacked had past issues, so they knew it was a matter of time before the next attack.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but satirists have to reel in the nasty hate against all religions really.  Is all that childish crap really necessary?  Talk about dumbing down America.



I don't think the cartoonist or any satirist for that matter are showing their "hate" but their fervent opposition to an idea, policy or opinion. Dark humor, cynicism or satire doesn't necessarily mean hate but it does mean I think this is wrong with an exclamation point. "hate" is as much the interpretation of the subject of an opinion. Coerced or incentivized censorship imposed or voluntary just because of a potential threat IS caving into extortion. I'm sure after previous incidents if the staff or business partner were that "afraid" they wouldn't have entered the building or work there. With any  movement or ideology the fanatics seem to rule the day so to speak but not it's entire lifespan.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 8, 2015)

Satire has long been used for expression of political decent.  It's not new to this century.. It dates back to Greek and Roman times.  It's not hate.. and it's really not meant to be funny.. It's meant to make a point and express an opinion.


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## Debby (Jan 8, 2015)

Geezerette said:


> I don't agree with Debby regarding  the Pauls. Just one more example of "blaming the victim."





Don't be ridiculous.  I'm not blaming any victims!  Quit trying to make something out of a comment that will suit your agenda.  Good grief.

If you have a child that is acting up, do you just keep beating him down or at some point do you get the smarts to look at why that kid is behaving that way?  Common sense says look for the causes and go from there.  And I'm also not saying that the bad actor shouldn't be stopped.  But this is something that must be dealt with on a number of fronts.  The 'shoot first mentality and then forget about it' hasn't accomplished mush of anything except the continued growth of the problem.


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## Vivjen (Jan 8, 2015)

Hang on a minute; what are we talking about here?
islamic extremists shoot first.... The majority of Muslims don't; who are we blaming for this shooting massacre?


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## Debby (Jan 8, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So does this mean... only when what you say does not offend anyone?  Or... does it mean religion is off limits?  Or does it just say "the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas."   The people at Charlie Hebdo KNEW what they were doing was dangerous.  They had been threatened many times..  I suppose they felt strongly enough about the principle of freedom of speech to die for it.




I guess it's akin to that saying, 'if you're going to do the crime, then be prepared to do the time'.  If they were aware of the possibilities of harm to themselves, then they must have been prepared to pay the ultimate price.  The world is full of nuts who often are drawn into religiosity as their 'raisons d'être'.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 9, 2015)

Still sad but good news but the French pursued hostage taking terrorist murderers into a grocery store and warehouse. Unfortunately although 3 of 4 terrorist were killed and one got away and several hostages were killed. Unclear if some were killed before or during rescue.

http://news.yahoo.com/police-officials-4-dead-paris-172317027.html


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## oakapple (Jan 9, 2015)

Hard to imagine exactly how the female accomplice got away as the entire place was surrounded.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 9, 2015)

One terrorist reported to be shot 60 times. Video of grocery store raid.

http://gawker.com/disturbing-video-shows-police-storming-paris-market-sh-1678582900

Warning, legs of body in video upon entry.

And this female dog wanted in the shooting of the police women. She might of escaped as the hostages were running out of the store.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world...n-after-three-gunmen-die-in-sieges/ar-AA7Z032


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## kcvet (Jan 9, 2015)

I could put a round right between those eyes and sleep like a baby


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## oakapple (Jan 10, 2015)

I think the woman accomplice was not present in the Jewish foodstore [though she was the day before when a policman was murdered.] So that explains it.I wondered how she could have got away.


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## oakapple (Jan 10, 2015)

What a world we live in.


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## RadishRose (Jan 10, 2015)

I thought this was interesting:

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-...ic-thinking-is-antagonizing-the-entire-world/

Speaking before Al-Azhar and the Awqaf Ministry on New Year’s Day, 2015, and in connection to Prophet Muhammad’s upcoming birthday, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, a vocal supporter for a renewed vision of Islam, made what must be his most forceful and impassioned plea to date on the subject.




Sisi during his New Year’s Day speech before Al Azhar
Among other things, Sisi said that the “corpus of [Islamic] texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the years” are  “antagonizing the entire world”; that it is not “possible that 1.6 billion people [reference to the world’s Muslims] should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants—that is 7 billion—so that they themselves may live”; and that Egypt (or the Islamic world in its entirety) “is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.”


The relevant excerpt from Sisi’s speech follows (translation by Michele Antaki):


I am referring here to the religious clerics.   We have to think hard about what we are facing—and I have, in fact, addressed this topic a couple of times before.  It’s inconceivable that the thinking that we hold most sacred should cause the entire umma [Islamic world] to be a source of anxiety, danger, killing and destruction for the rest of the world.  Impossible!


That thinking—I am not saying “religion” but “thinking”—that corpus of texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the centuries, to the point that departing from them has become almost impossible, is antagonizing the entire world.  It’s antagonizing the entire world!


Is it possible that 1.6 billion people [Muslims] should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants—that is 7 billion—so that they themselves may live? Impossible!


I am saying these words here at Al Azhar, before this assembly of scholars and ulema—Allah Almighty be witness to your truth on Judgment Day concerning that which I’m talking about now.


All this that I am telling you, you cannot feel it if you remain trapped within this mindset. You need to step outside of yourselves to be able to observe it and reflect on it from a more enlightened perspective.


I say and repeat again that we are in need of a religious revolution. You, imams, are responsible before Allah. The entire world, I say it again, the entire world is waiting for your next move… because this umma is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.


Note: It is unclear if in the last instance of umma Sisi is referring to Egypt (“the nation”) or if he is using it in the pan-Islamic sense as he did initially to refer to the entire Islamic world


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## WhatInThe (Jan 10, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I think the woman accomplice was not present in the Jewish foodstore [though she was the day before when a policman was murdered.] So that explains it.I wondered how she could have got away.



I think you are much closer to the truth than you think because now there are reports this women was in Turkey at the time of the attacks. So who is the Jane Doe or is it a ruse by police to catch the perpetrator/terrorist.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-...eged-accomplice-1420904299?mod=fox_australian

In Syria? Again who was the women supposedly with the other dead terrorists.


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## Debby (Jan 10, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> I thought this was interesting:
> 
> http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-...ic-thinking-is-antagonizing-the-entire-world/
> 
> ...




If I'm understanding this, it would appear that the Egyptian President is challenging Muslim's and Clerics in particular, about the perception by the world that Muslims (in general) are out to kill everyone who doesn't share their beliefs .  Is he saying that they need to get their act together and start actively teaching a new and better philosophy that doesn't include mass murder?  I hope so, but you have to wonder, how long he will be on this side of the veil.  New 'contract'  coming up with his name on it?


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## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2015)

He's also focussed on his home problem, the Muslim Brotherhood, but more power to him in the battle to change thinking.


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## RadishRose (Jan 10, 2015)

Debby, that's what I got from it. Hopefully it's not just another "campaign speech".


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## Debby (Jan 10, 2015)

I much prefer this kind of attitude:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/10/lassana-bathily_n_6448500.html?utm_hp_ref=canada&ir=Canada

Lassana Bathily, a Muslim employee at Paris Kosher grocery store Hyper Cacher, saved several people by hiding them in a walk-in freezer when a gunman laid siege to his workplace on Friday.


We are all from the same creator, we are all one and while some may go off the rails and do violence, let us be mindful that you can't kill your way to peace, unless you are willing to 'live alone'.  This man was willing to risk his own life to save others.....that kind of willingness and love is the road of peace.


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## kcvet (Jan 10, 2015)

Debby said:


> Nice spirit of violence demonstrated here.  And considering your previous comment about Muslims being good for one thing only (I still won't repeat what you said)  what makes you different from these terrorists?



these terrorists as you call them are born to kill. for 4000 years. kill or be killed. its in the blood. ever hear of honor killings?? tell me there deb what contributions have Muslims made to humanity?? the arts and sciences. anything??? if they show up at your home home with a sword then what?? your sheep. and sheep get slaughtered. not me. that's the diff.


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## Happyflowerlady (Jan 10, 2015)

Does anyone else wonder at all about the TIMING of these attacks ? 
A day or two before the attacks happened, the breaking news was about the pedophile ring that included English Royalty, former President Clinton, and other prominent people . 
All of a sudden, there is not just one, but several terrorist attacks in France, and the whole story about the pedophile  and aristocracy is  buried-----just plain GONE !  
All we hear about for the rest of the week is about the attacks, and more attacks, and hostage-takers , happening in several places in France. 
You would think that the organizations that work to help women be treated with respect, and the groups that support stopping child abuse would have just been all over the exploitation of these young girls. But not a word, not from anywhere. 

Cover-up and distraction, anybody ? ?


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## RadishRose (Jan 10, 2015)

*Only* to address what contributions Islam has given to the world, check out this site about Islamic art

http://collections.lacma.org/search/site/?front=1&f[0]=bm_field_has_image%3Atrue&f[1]=im_field_curatorial_area%3A45&gclid=CITdjau-isMCFUg6gQodPBoAuw

For mathematics
http://www.storyofmathematics.com/islamic.html

Just sayin'


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## kcvet (Jan 10, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> *Only* to address what contributions Islam has given to the world, check out this site about Islamic art
> 
> http://collections.lacma.org/search/site/?front=1&f[0]=bm_field_has_image%3Atrue&f[1]=im_field_curatorial_area%3A45&gclid=CITdjau-isMCFUg6gQodPBoAuw
> 
> ...



why do Muslims hate Jews?? one reason

http://www.jinfo.org/


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## rt3 (Jan 10, 2015)

Both sides to blame

free speech is one thing, but when your gettin  paid for it, it's something else
regardless what label you put on it, piss people off that much they will come looking for you, talk about

calling these people Muslims is like calling Bonnie and Clyde, Southern Baptists 
they were nothing but outlaws, 


as a as a side note, the consious evolution of mankind is contained in "thousand and one arabian nights"
please read the works of sir Richard Burton about the Sufi (not Sifu) religious trials etc.


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## Debby (Jan 10, 2015)

kcvet said:


> these terrorists as you call them are born to kill. for 4000 years. kill or be killed. its in the blood. ever hear of honor killings?? tell me there deb what contributions have Muslims made to humanity?? the arts and sciences. anything??? if they show up at your home home with a sword then what?? your sheep. and sheep get slaughtered. not me. that's the diff.





I had edited my comment before I realized that you'd replied, just by way of explanation for the change you might notice if you went back to mine.  But since you'd already addressed it, I thought I'd clarify a bit what my feeling is on this issue.  For what it's worth rightlayful:

I think what bothers me, being honest here, is not that 'we' are protecting ourselves, but that instead of any sense of deep regret that we're forced to possibly take another persons life, you seem to relish the whole activity of fighting back, including killing other people.  Just being honest kcvet.  

Not every culture is at the same place at the same time, so getting busy with your comparison list has no meaning except to you.  That's like saying that you are 'better' than your child by virtue of being further along in the process.  The point is that we really only have control of ourselves so the question is, what kind of human being do you aim to be.  

Sinking to the level of these terrorists with our own hatred improves absolutely nothing in the long run or in the big picture.  It prolongs and deepens the misery.  There is a fog of disrespect enveloping this world and filling geopolitics as well as 'personal politics', and it has thrived to the point that hatred has become the go-to attitude for far too many.  

When we and our governments start respecting the autonomy of other nations and behave in the way we want to be treated, then peace has a chance.  But while that relish for taking life is given full rein on the side that likes to think of themselves as the good guys, than we can expect this to go on ad infinitum.  Somebody has to be the 'grown-up' and start acting with 'respect'.


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## kcvet (Jan 10, 2015)

Debby said:


> I had edited my comment before I realized that you'd replied, just by way of explanation for the change you might notice if you went back to mine.  But since you'd already addressed it, I thought I'd clarify a bit what my feeling is on this issue.  For what it's worth rightlayful:
> 
> I think what bothers me, being honest here, is not that 'we' are protecting ourselves, but that instead of any sense of deep regret that we're forced to possibly take another persons life, you seem to relish the whole activity of fighting back, including killing other people.  Just being honest kcvet.
> 
> ...



they were fighting wars before you and I were born. and they'll keep fighting them long after we're dead, buried and gone. it's man nature to kill his fellow man. it's in the blood. and you and I can't stop it. 

let's let go by saying your the dove and im the hawk


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## WhatInThe (Jan 10, 2015)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Does anyone else wonder at all about the TIMING of these attacks ?
> A day or two before the attacks happened, the breaking news was about the pedophile ring that included English Royalty, former President Clinton, and other prominent people .
> All of a sudden, there is not just one, but several terrorist attacks in France, and the whole story about the pedophile  and aristocracy is  buried-----just plain GONE !
> All we hear about for the rest of the week is about the attacks, and more attacks, and hostage-takers , happening in several places in France.
> ...



I wonder as well. There are theories that involve Israel on the verge of being sent to a world court for war crimes. Others say it was time for a fund raiser to drum up dollars and support for a war against Islam. I wonder since they were on the US no fly list that if there was a legit undercover operation run amok or exploited for political reasons. I've heard theories that most "foiled" terrorist plots wouldn't even have proceeded as far as they did without undercover involvement. Were did the weapons including a RPG or rocket launcher come from? It's questions like that must be answered. Notice how the narrative changed as well including the wanted women being in Turkey while the attacks occurred again under surveillance of some kind.


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## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2015)

Give the terrorists some credit for planning their own actions.
To do otherwise is to underestimate their capabilities.


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## kcvet (Jan 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Give the terrorists some credit for planning their own actions.
> To do otherwise is to underestimate their capabilities.



yes. they have killing down to an exact science


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 10, 2015)

A short conspiracy video.


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## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2015)

kcvet said:


> yes. they have killing down to an exact science


Not exact but they are intelligent and learning from experience.
It is a mistake to underestimate an adversary.
Better to learn how he thinks to be better prepared for the next attack.


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## Happyflowerlady (Jan 10, 2015)

That is a great video, SeaBreeze ! 
I have subscribed to Storm Clouds Gathering for a whiile now, and they do have some very interesting videos for someone who wants to understand more about what is really happening , and how people are being decieved. I also listen to John B. Wells Caravan to Midnight, and he has some informative guest speakers there as well. 

It seems like all the shooting stories follow the same script, or a very similar one. 
One person, or two people (brothers) who have never been heard of before seem to go crazy and start shooting people. Conveniently, they always leave their driver's license, Social Security card, or some other valid form of ID at the scene of the crime. The police tell the media who it is, and the media then has pictures of the suspects to put on the news as soon as the names are announced. 
(Why is it we can't tell when these terrorists are going to attack; but as soon as they do, we suddenly know all about them, pictures, background, and the whole nine yards ?? )
All sorts of police/military style LE then swarm over the area, often with MRAP's,  and conduct a house to house search. 
Eventually, the shooter is found, but has usually managed to shoot himself in the head just as the police are closing in.
This video shows things that we are not usually shown, or they are on the news and then removed right away. 

If you look at the picture taken in Pakistan of the recent school shooting, and all of the pictures of the children are put on a memorial wall, and the grieving parents are lighting candles in memory of their murdered children. 
On the right side of that picture is some kind of a green (school?) emblem. The child pictured just on the left side of that green emblem is the EXACT same picture as the one used for little Noah Pozner, supposedly already killed at the Sandy Hook school shooting two years ago.


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 11, 2015)

Don M. 



 Don M. is offline Senior Member       
"This is what happens when there is a "Religion" that teaches "Death to All Infidels". At some point, us Infidels are going to have to stop being "Politically Correct"

SPOT ON !!!


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

kcvet said:


> they were fighting wars before you and I were born. and they'll keep fighting them long after we're dead, buried and gone. it's man nature to kill his fellow man. it's in the blood. and you and I can't stop it.
> 
> let's let go by saying your the dove and im the hawk




And what has been accomplished by the demonstrated American zeal for 'hawkism'?  Are any of us safer?  Is there more peace in the world?

America has a 'tradition' of supporting terrorism whenever it furthers the administrations agenda.  Doesn't make the world more peaceful but it certainly fuels the profits of the military support industry which has profited to the tune of 27,699% profit for it's shareholders in the past 50 years.  

This morning I was reading an article written by an American geopolitical analyst out of NY and it was about the US supporting the Chechen terrorists that Russia has been fighting with, within their own borders.  More profits and tax payer dollars used to support that military machine and support death and destruction and none of it makes you, me, or the world any safer.

You say 'it's man nature to kill his fellow man. it's in the blood. and you and I can't stop it.'......and I say, you don't want to stop it.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-so...-soaring-costs-of-military-casualties/5388393

http://www.filmsforaction.org/news/war_of_words_the_new_chechen_terror_rt_opedge/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Give the terrorists some credit for planning their own actions.
> To do otherwise is to underestimate their capabilities.




Terrorists might plan their own actions, but who funds them?  That single question raises a multitude of even more interesting questions.

In lots of my reading that I've been doing about Putin and Russia and Ukraine, I've noticed several times where commenters have thrown out the question, as proof of how bad Russia/Putin is, something along the lines of 'oh yeah, well what about the fight with Chechnya?'.  Well what about that fight?  So I looked it up and discovered that it is a fight between Russia and terrorists (who claim the Islamic faith) and who are trying to take control of the Chechnya region.  And today I came across an article that points to direct support of those terrorists by the American administration.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia
http://www.filmsforaction.org/news/war_of_words_the_new_chechen_terror_rt_opedge/

So while those terrorists might be planning where they will hit next, they can only do it as long as they have cash and various other kinds of support from 'somewhere'.  Turn off the taps of that support and they would whither and die and disappear I would think.


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## Don M. (Jan 11, 2015)

"This is what happens when there is a "Religion" that teaches "Death to All Infidels". At some point, us Infidels are going to have to stop being "Politically Correct"

It seems to me that there is a faction of Islam that thinks they are still in the days of the "Crusades", and living as if they were in the 10th and 11th centuries.  If they keep engaging in their terrorist activities, they may just get what they seem to be wishing for.  If the Moderate Muslims, who claim that Islam is the "religion of peace", are unwilling to tone down the rhetoric of their radical Imams, etc., who often incite these terrorist attacks, All Muslims may one day find themselves being rejected by the rest of the world.


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## rt3 (Jan 11, 2015)

"Kill them all and let God sort them out".  More people killed in France by the Catholics during the crusades than Middle East . Important thing is not getting sucked in to either side. I believe the numbers of Muslims have some of the other guys way outnumbered. Jehovah of the Old Testament was a God of war.
some of the things that are disturbing to me:
military weapons, especially AK, use FMJ which would pencil thru the target without much splatter, so that part looks good contrary to the conspiracy video what one can actually see. What happened to the RPG? Why did they use an anti-armour weapon on a non fortified position? Why did't they steal the autos? We're the ids from the autos registration, or wallets? 
The only thing missing here is them arriving in 1970 VW minibus with the RPGs standing up in the back.


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> "This is what happens when there is a "Religion" that teaches "Death to All Infidels". At some point, us Infidels are going to have to stop being "Politically Correct"
> 
> It seems to me that there is a faction of Islam that thinks they are still in the days of the "Crusades", and living as if they were in the 10th and 11th centuries.  If they keep engaging in their terrorist activities, they may just get what they seem to be wishing for.  If the Moderate Muslims, who claim that Islam is the "religion of peace", are unwilling to tone down the rhetoric of their radical Imams, etc., who often incite these terrorist attacks, All Muslims may one day find themselves being rejected by the rest of the world.





If you Google, Muslim peace groups, you will find that there are many groups who do exactly what we would all hope for, but we never seem to hear about them do we?    How many times have you heard about the Palestinian peace marches have been occurring in the West Bank for the past ten years despite the danger that doing so poses to the marchers?    How many times have you heard the media covering the rubber bullets and other violence from the IDF that meet their efforts for highlighting and seeking peace? 

There are moderate Muslims who are speaking out, who are teaching peace and who are just as appalled as you or I at the violence that hijackers of their religion, but they are hidden from the world by a news media that has given up on journalism and seem only to consult the daily Reuters or AP news feed to get their stories of the day.  Details are one sided and usually identical from one station to the next.  And they aren't talking much if at all, about Muslims who preach, teach and advocate peace.

http://salaminstitute.org/new/?p=807
http://forusa.org/groups/religious-peace-fellowships/muslim-peace-fellowship
http://www.islamicpeace.org.uk

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...y-wont-be-intimidated-by-far-rightists-371259
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/dear-nick-kristof-your-palestinian-gandhis-are-already-here


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves.


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## Don M. (Jan 11, 2015)

Getting any measure of "unbiased" news, from our US media sources....especially the Cable news networks...is wishful thinking.  They are all driven by the need to pump up their Nielsen ratings, so they can increase their advertising revenues.  

Then, at the risk of being called "Anti-Semantic", I would suggest that there is a substantial presence of ownership, investor participation, and management of our media by wealthy Jewish interests.  They certainly have no interest in presenting the Muslim side of the issue.  

I am not very impressed with many of Obama's foreign policy directions....but his seeming refusal to bow down to Tel Aviv is certainly a move in the right direction, IMO.  For far too long, our government has "blessed" everything Israeli, and this has contributed substantially to the Arab world looking upon the US as its enemy.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Give the terrorists some credit for planning their own actions.
> To do otherwise is to underestimate their capabilities.



It's not so much about under estimating them but certain plans all but require someone look the other way and/or actually supply, facilitate or enable them. If this was a criminal investigation the perpetrators would be free until they are arrested/do something prosecutable. In intelligence you want to see where or who it all leads to so again you have to let the suspects go free and do what you suspect them of.

With the Boston bombers the US had warnings and the one brother literally got away with murder killing frat boy drug dealers. How did his name stay out of the criminal investigation-because the police were told hands off??? How can these terrorists be on various no fly lists and under surveillance by other countries at the same be able not only be able to smuggle a gun but gunS and a RPG into France.

No one is denying their capabilities but the logistics of executing many of  their plans would need too much 'nudging' and luck to actually succeed.


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

Maybe what our governments need to do, if they truly want peace and truly differentiate between Muslims and terrorists who use their Islamic faith as a focus of their hatred, is to start meeting with Muslim groups and showing a visible unity with those moderates.  I know a couple years ago, our potential new Prime Minister, had the temerity to attend a mosque (PR effort) and he was roundly castigated by the media and individuals and the current government, as though he'd 'met with the enemy' and 'given his support of terrorism' by doing so.  

But isn't that what should happen?  Encourage understanding and cooperation between groups by meeting and getting to know one another?  Build bridges to strengthen unity?


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

kcvet said:


> I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves.




Then you have the same feelings about 9/11?   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror  (go down to the section headed Precursors to 9/11 and take note of the 1998 bombing campaign of Sudan and Afghanistan)


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Getting any measure of "unbiased" news, from our US media sources....especially the Cable news networks...is wishful thinking.  They are all driven by the need to pump up their Nielsen ratings, so they can increase their advertising revenues.
> 
> Then, at the risk of being called "Anti-Semantic", I would suggest that there is a substantial presence of ownership, investor participation, and management of our media by wealthy Jewish interests.  They certainly have no interest in presenting the Muslim side of the issue.
> 
> I am not very impressed with many of Obama's foreign policy directions....but his seeming refusal to bow down to Tel Aviv is certainly a move in the right direction, IMO.  For far too long, our government has "blessed" everything Israeli, and this has contributed substantially to the Arab world looking upon the US as its enemy.




I think that because of WW2 we've become terribly afraid of the label anti-semitic and it's high time we leave that behind because Israel uses it to their advantage to cow any criticism which they so justly deserve.  Also, keep in mind that Arab people are Semites just as the Jews are so the whole 'anti-semite' accusation is kind of ignorant.

I do agree with your opinions on the mainstream media when it comes to getting real info that is accurate and unbiased and tells all sides and your assessment of your country 'bending over' for Israel and the result, is also spot on.


And sorry about the run of comments here.  I read the other comments and things popped into my head in response, but I should have been patient and not jumped on my little soapbox each time without waiting for others.  I'll try to be good from now on folks.  Sorry


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> Terrorists might plan their own actions, but who funds them?  That single question raises a multitude of even more interesting questions.
> 
> In lots of my reading that I've been doing about Putin and Russia and Ukraine, I've noticed several times where commenters have thrown out the question, as proof of how bad Russia/Putin is, something along the lines of 'oh yeah, well what about the fight with Chechnya?'.  Well what about that fight?  So I looked it up and discovered that it is a fight between Russia and terrorists (who claim the Islamic faith) and who are trying to take control of the Chechnya region.  And today I came across an article that points to direct support of those terrorists by the American administration.
> 
> ...





> Terrorists might plan their own actions, but who funds them?



Iran, Syria, N Korea just to name a few


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> I think that because of WW2 we've become terribly afraid of the label anti-semitic and it's high time we leave that behind because Israel uses it to their advantage to cow any criticism which they so justly deserve.  Also, keep in mind that Arab people are Semites just as the Jews are so the whole 'anti-semite' accusation is kind of ignorant.
> 
> I do agree with your opinions on the mainstream media when it comes to getting real info that is accurate and unbiased and tells all sides and your assessment of your country 'bending over' for Israel and the result, is also spot on.
> 
> ...



are you a Jew hater??


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## WhatInThe (Jan 11, 2015)

kcvet said:


> I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves.



German paper that published Charlie Hebdo cartoons fired bombed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-reprinted-charlie-hebdo-cartoons-firebombed/


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 11, 2015)

KVvet

"I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves". 

YOU ARE SO TOTALLY WRONG AND OUT OF TOUCH...

NOBODY BUT NOBODY  brings the terrorist's plagues upon themselves... 

Barbaric terrorists do that

Don't that the blame away from the terrorists where it belongs !!!

THIS IS HOW "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS"  DAMAGES DEMOCRACY !


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> KVvet
> 
> "I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves".
> 
> ...



check out the 2005 French riots and the cause. which spread though out the EU

and I am NOT pc


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## WhatInThe (Jan 11, 2015)

I've always found the Europeans in general beyond upfront to the point of being rude, arrogant and/or ignorant. That's Europe and most living there accept it, they might not like it but that is a European. It's the same arrogance that inspired 'manifest destiny' and the colonization of many a territory.  I always found the Brits and Germans to be more rude and arrogant. Every nation or area has an underlining of racism, prejudice or ignorance. Yes the French are wishy washy socialists who actually just had to abandon a 75% tax rate but as with any terrorism acting like a dissed street gang banger does not warrant murder-a crime.


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## Debby (Jan 11, 2015)

kcvet said:


> are you a Jew hater??




Not at all.  If in the Palestinian situation, the roles were reversed, I'd unhesitatingly be looking for the facts on what the Palestinians are doing to the Jewish people. I spent the first half of last year investigating the Palestinian/Israeli question which I think is something every American and Canadian voter should be doing.  If you did, you would discover that the list of human rights abuses and atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli government and the IDF are long, daily and often fatal ranging from shooting annoying children to depriving whole communities of water for days at a time to preventing people from even accessing their farms to grow food to keep from starving.

I abhor what happened to the Jewish people in the 2nd WW.  My 'thing' is sticking up for the guy who's downtrodden and overrun by somebody with greater power (hence greater responsibility to do the right thing!).  No, I don't hate Jews. But I do hate what they are doing to the people under their control.  

Also from you kcvet:  '_Terrorists might plan their own actions, but who funds them?_Iran, Syria, N Korea just to name a few'

Don't forget to include the USA in that list of who funds terrorists.  Ukraine's neo-Nazi's, Chechen terrorists, Syria's 'opposition', mujahadeen of Afghanistan .....  And something that I've noticed to in all my reading is that loyalties among these governments of the West and the Middle East seem to be as fluid as water and today they might be enemies, but tomorrow they'll be supporting one another.​


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> Not at all.  If in the Palestinian situation, the roles were reversed, I'd unhesitatingly be looking for the facts on what the Palestinians are doing to the Jewish people. I spent the first half of last year investigating the Palestinian/Israeli question which I think is something every American and Canadian voter should be doing.  If you did, you would discover that the list of human rights abuses and atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli government and the IDF are long, daily and often fatal ranging from shooting annoying children to depriving whole communities of water for days at a time to preventing people from even accessing their farms to grow food to keep from starving.
> 
> I abhor what happened to the Jewish people in the 2nd WW.  My 'thing' is sticking up for the guy who's downtrodden and overrun by somebody with greater power (hence greater responsibility to do the right thing!).  No, I don't hate Jews. But I do hate what they are doing to the people under their control.
> 
> ...



aplolgies. my mistake


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## BobF (Jan 11, 2015)

The US does fund the Palestinians and also the Jewish folks there in the Jewish nation area.  But for the Palestinians that have the Iranian outpost folks shooting rockets into Jerusalem, the US does not pay into those folks as far as I know.   For the moment I can not even think of the names of those killer folks that really are trying to work Iran's wishes.   I believe that this was pretty well covered a while back.


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## kcvet (Jan 11, 2015)

BobF said:


> The US does fund the Palestinians and also the Jewish folks there in the Jewish nation area.  But for the Palestinians that have the Iranian outpost folks shooting rockets into Jerusalem, the US does not pay into those folks as far as I know.   For the moment I can not even think of the names of those killer folks that really are trying to work Iran's wishes.   I believe that this was pretty well covered a while back.



Hamas and Hezbollah. they have prevented the peace process with Palestinian for years. if they are exterminated there will be peace.


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## Debby (Jan 12, 2015)

kcvet said:


> aplolgies. my mistake




No problemo.

You also made a point about Hamas and Hezbollah preventing the peace process and while you are right on that, you should also add to that, Israel has done their share to prevent the peace process for years and years also.  The Zionist vision shows a 'Jew only' country so it would appear if you look at the history of the region, that not only has Israel dumped on some of the agreements, but they've made every effort to make life in general so unpleasant and dangerous for Palestinians that they might be 'encouraged' to leave.  There is plenty of blame to share all around.


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## BobF (Jan 12, 2015)

Mostly what  is being said is about the coastal Palestinians.   As I understand the events the more distant Palestinian territories are much more tame and ready to live in peace with the Jewish folks.   So our biggest problems is in the coastal areas where the Iranian radicals keep shooting rockets into Israel to keep things more stressed.   It is these war like activities that a few are into that makes the entire area a tough one to live in.   That people speak differently or have different religions is not the problem at all.   It is these political radicals from Iran that keep on breaking the peace efforts of others that are trying to heal the tempers of this area.


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## Debby (Jan 12, 2015)

I think WB Palestinians are not as compressed as the Gaza people are ( home to 1.82 million people in an area that is 141 square miles), which might result in less open violence (i.e. they don't shoot rockets).  One must also consider that Gaza has only one exit/entrance which is tightly controlled by Israel (meaning not only crossing delays but also the ability to severely restrict food and other necessities from being brought in, which they do consistently) and that the Palestinian fishermen don't even have access to the water on their coast to provide food for the population.  Any move outside of the 6 mile coastal waters (which are totally polluted as Israel has destroyed any sewage treatment facilities) is met with a hail of bullets.  (should note that I believe Egypt recently opened up one crossing that is also strictly controlled by them but that may only be for the sake of the seriously ill who need to get medical treatment)
The result from that continual aggravation as well as the crowding, possibly does result in a heightened level of day to day problems when comparing the WB and Gaza.  However, the Palestinians of the WB and Jerusalem are no less affected by the Israeli 'assaults' on common decency and those people also live with settler violence, water shortages (because Israeli Jews get more water), home demolitions (27,000 since 1967), food shortages, severe travel restrictions, assaults by IDF of both a physical and an emotional variety, and harassment and violence by the IDF against the residents, to mention a few of the issues.  

There is also the issue of Israeli settlements taking/stealing most of the WB out from under the feet of the Palestinian people.  Did you know that all the Jewish settlements are connected throughout the WB by roads and water and communication and sewage infrastructure, each of which has a buffer zone surrounding it.....and the Palestinian people cannot use the roads or even cross them, nor are they allowed within those buffer zones, which means that many have no way of accessing their farms which might lie within eye sight of where they are standing.....except they can't cross the road.  Israel then decrees that farm as abandoned and they take it over.

A good map that shows how the WB has changed since 1946 until 2000.  http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24176.htm

So when you take into consideration all of the above as they affect the Palestinian people wherever they are living, is it really just the 'Iranian radicals that keep on breaking the peace efforts of others'?  Again, Israel being the power in that small region has done more than their share of 'violence' against an impoverished and deliberately weakened and powerless people to prevent peace from taking hold.

One thing I will agree with you on is that Hamas followers have enriched themselves at the expense of the common people.  All those tunnels that Israel blew up in the summer were a great source of income for those bums as they controlled and taxed the black market that made use of them so for them to periodically ratchet up tensions is an economic decision.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

French Police Chief investingating the Charlie Hebdo attacks commits suicide-supposedly.

http://www.infowars.com/police-chief-investigating-charlie-hedbo-attack-reportedly-commits-suicide/

One has to wonder especially since the terrorists were on US no fly list and under surveillance in Turkey. Wonder what he came across.


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## BobF (Jan 12, 2015)

Debby, I say again that it is the Iranian killers that have settled in the coastal Palestinian area that causes all the problems you keep complaining about.   Why does Israel keep borders so closed as you claim.   Children and adults dressed as bombs going from Palestine to Israel is one good reason.   Radicals trying to get into Israel to explode on buses or in markets are other good reasons to shut the gates and keep people from transiting into and across Jewish living areas.   Yet you complain about the Jewish causing the problems.   Jews do deserve a right to live without fear generated by those Iranian rebels.   In the early years those fences did not exist.   But after examples of hate and explosions the Jewish had to defend themselves.

No reason for my responding any more to your biased claims that it is all the Jews that are causing the problems.   Not so at all.   The Jewish do want to have peace but as long as the Iranian radicals want to hang around and explode things in Israel, those lands will be kept closed.   I believe I read recently that those Palestinians have been allowed to take their boats out see again.

Your posts are so biased against the Jews and failing to recognize that the Palestinians have come close to signing peace objectives more than once till those radicals under Iran's guidance interfere.    Makes me wonder what your heritage might be.  You posts are so biased and distorted that they are really hard to believe at all.   So get angry with me and pout some more.   I am now retiring from responding to your posts.   Far too much of your posts are one sided and stretched reality.


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 14, 2015)

Quote Originally Posted by Elyzabeth View Post 

KVvet

 "I read copy cat attacks are now in Germany. I cannot feel for France. they brought this terrorists plague on themselves". 

 YOU ARE SO TOTALLY WRONG AND OUT OF TOUCH...

 NOBODY BUT NOBODY brings the terrorist's plagues upon themselves... 

 Barbaric terrorists do that

 Don't that the blame away from the terrorists where it belongs !!!

 THIS IS HOW "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS" DAMAGES DEMOCRACY !"

KCVET reply:

"check out the 2005 French riots and the cause. which spread though out the EU

 and I am NOT pc "

......I should check out the French riots of 2005...and their cause ???

That's a pretty big ask, in order to prove some point you are not making, isn't it?

Why don't you just say what your point is?


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## oakapple (Jan 14, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> I've always found the Europeans in general beyond upfront to the point of being rude, arrogant and/or ignorant. That's Europe and most living there accept it, they might not like it but that is a European. It's the same arrogance that inspired 'manifest destiny' and the colonization of many a territory. I always found the Brits and Germans to be more rude and arrogant. Every nation or area has an underlining of racism, prejudice or ignorance. Yes the French are wishy washy socialists who actually just had to abandon a 75% tax rate but as with any terrorism acting like a dissed street gang banger does not warrant murder-a crime.


Pretty rude and arrogant of YOU to post this on here where there are quite a few 'Brits' who enjoy the forum.Most people on here choose to be friendly.


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## Bee (Jan 14, 2015)

Well said oakapple.


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## Debby (Jan 14, 2015)

BobF said:


> Debby, I say again that it is the Iranian killers that have settled in the coastal Palestinian area that causes all the problems you keep complaining about.   Why does Israel keep borders so closed as you claim.   Children and adults dressed as bombs going from Palestine to Israel is one good reason.   Radicals trying to get into Israel to explode on buses or in markets are other good reasons to shut the gates and keep people from transiting into and across Jewish living areas.   Yet you complain about the Jewish causing the problems.   Jews do deserve a right to live without fear generated by those Iranian rebels.   In the early years those fences did not exist.   But after examples of hate and explosions the Jewish had to defend themselves.
> 
> No reason for my responding any more to your biased claims that it is all the Jews that are causing the problems.   Not so at all.   The Jewish do want to have peace but as long as the Iranian radicals want to hang around and explode things in Israel, those lands will be kept closed.   I believe I read recently that those Palestinians have been allowed to take their boats out see again.
> 
> Your posts are so biased against the Jews and failing to recognize that the Palestinians have come close to signing peace objectives more than once till those radicals under Iran's guidance interfere.    Makes me wonder what your heritage might be.  You posts are so biased and distorted that they are really hard to believe at all.   So get angry with me and pout some more.   I am now retiring from responding to your posts.   Far too much of your posts are one sided and stretched reality.




Do you actually have any idea of how the Palestinian people are treated by Israel?  Have you ever REALLY looked at the issues those people face, or are you just responding out of a 'wealth' of information passed on by MSM?  Because if it was all as one sided as you seem to think, then please explain why human rights groups (including Jewish ones like B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/statistics) and Oxfam and the UN and the Red Cross all point to ongoing, daily human rights abuses against a weakened population?

Certainly Jewish people deserve to live in peace just as you and I do, but their government is going out of their way to make sure that the animosity between the two groups is NEVER overcome.  You have just witnessed a US weaponized and funded government blatantly and openly murder almost 2000 people who were women and children and old people with nowhere to go to escape and you blame the victims.  

Did you know that Arafat actually signed the Oslo Agreement and stated that Israel had a right to live in peace and without violence?  And yet here we are still arguing the same issue endlessly.  My views are facts that are available to the world (including you) but the problem is that most are unwilling to actually look for facts.  

You wonder what my heritage may be.....oh my gosh, desperate there Bob.  For someone who comes from a country of free speech and founded on a desire to escape to a new life where man's very right to pursue happiness as he saw fit and without the control of an overweening government was a given, you sure have given up the right to actually pursue knowledge, information and peace for all.  You see, 'heritage' has nothing to do with a mind that thinks for itself and isn't willing to be force fed the 'pap' that passes for information but is really just what governments need for us to believe.

Tell you what, IF the day ever comes that you really want an understanding of the Palestinian/Israeli question from the standpoint of the experts who are there on the ground, I'll happily pass on dozens of links to the writings of those people, humanitarian groups and UN reports on the violence and abuse perpetrated by Israel on a daily basis.  Just give me an hours notice so that I can put them all onto a single comment for you.  Then you will be able to say that you are educated on the issue.


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## kcvet (Jan 14, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> Quote Originally Posted by Elyzabeth View Post
> 
> KVvet
> 
> ...



know how to use a search engine?? its all there. point is back then they had open door policies for immigrants. who flooded in. they had no income to support themselves and the host Gov was not about to support them. there's the burning fuse. and the bomb exploded in riots. with copy cat attacks all over the EU, most countries today require proof of income. no dead beats allowed. seems france is a soft target for riots and terrorists.

archived

Immigrant Rioting Flares in France for Ninth Night

story


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## Debby (Jan 14, 2015)

I read an interesting piece in Huffington Post today.  It talks about the inequity in where 'free speech' is allowed and not allowed:  taken from the article (and I haven't verified it but here it is for your consideration)

"...And why have you been so silent on the glaring double standards? Did you not know that _Charlie Hebdo_ sacked the veteran French cartoonist Maurice Sinet in 2008 for making an allegedly anti-Semitic remark? Were you not aware that Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that published caricatures of the Prophet in 2005, reportedly rejected cartoons mocking Christ because they would "provoke an outcry" and proudly declared it would "in no circumstances... publish Holocaust cartoons"?..."

The point the author is making is that at Charlie Hebdo and others, it is politically acceptable to abuse the sensibilities of all Muslims (even the peaceful ones), but it's off limits to do the same to Christians and Jews.   My question is, if free speech still allows us to protect the feelings of some groups, why isn't it applicable on behalf of all groups?  Why are we so intent on further alienating and isolating (and thereby encouraging the growth of angry, [FONT=Georgia, Century, Times, serif]disenfranchised) Muslim young people and radicals (which every group has a certain percentage of).  And who is it that decides which exceptions are to be made?

[/FONT]http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/charlie-hebdo-free-speech_b_6462584.html?utm_hp_ref=world&ir=World


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## Vivjen (Jan 14, 2015)

I think you will find that Charlie Hebdo frequently mock the Pope, Jesus, and also hypocritical politians; their satire is directed at anybody, and everybody.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2015)

Debby said:


> Do you actually have any idea of how the Palestinian people are treated by Israel?  Have you ever REALLY looked at the issues those people face, or are you just responding out of a 'wealth' of information passed on by MSM?  Because if it was all as one sided as you seem to think, then please explain why human rights groups (including Jewish ones like B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/statistics) and Oxfam and the UN and the Red Cross all point to ongoing, daily human rights abuses against a weakened population?
> 
> Certainly Jewish people deserve to live in peace just as you and I do, but their government is going out of their way to make sure that the animosity between the two groups is NEVER overcome.  You have just witnessed a US weaponized and funded government blatantly and openly murder almost 2000 people who were women and children and old people with nowhere to go to escape and you blame the victims.
> 
> ...



Yes I do  have a lot of information on how the Jewish folks have treated the Palestinians.   That is why I wonder how you can be so biased and wrong about what is happening there in the coastal Palestinian lands.   That is where the Iranian terroriest have moved in and launch rockets from the streets then hide the launchers in the houses and churches till wanted again.  That is not peace from within he Palestinian lands at all.

Yes the Iraeli folks have had peace agreements with the Palestininians and all were waiting for the signatures from the Palestinians, which  never came. 

You are so hateful towards the Jewish folks is why I asked the question of what beliefs you have.   Never answered directly and that is your choice.   What you need is a real review of how the relations between the Jewish and Palestinians has gone.   From promise, to promise, to oblivion.   Time after time with the Israeli's and others sitting at the peace tables waiting while the Palestinians, with the Iranian hateful leading them fail to arrive and sign the papers.

Keep posting your twisted ideas, not facts, and hopefully in time no one will pay any more attention to your babbling.   I now for sure I will not argue against your air headed stuff as most of it is contrary to what I have read and watched for several years now.   Most of the good life areas are those run by the Israeli folks while most of the hateful and ugly places are those run by the Iranian hateful troops that came and took over the coastal Palestinian areas.   If Israel had nothing to about defending themselves from these radical Iranian types then there would be no destruction or fences or acts of war to try to end the crimes against the Jewish.   That is something you seem to miss in the coastal Palestinian and Israel situation.

And for Arafat at Oslo, a joke for all to see.     Public statements and such but when back home there were no sit downs and peace signatures to be found.    This is exactly the same sort of action that Clinton found when he had the Palestinian types and Israeli leaders meet in the US with him.   Photo's and hand shakes and agreeing terms.    Till they went back home and again the Palestinian leadership refused to sign the papers and allow peace to take over in the lands of Palestinians and Jewish.   A lovely bunch of two face folks.   It is not the Palestinians, the Israeli folks, or the US or other countries.   Look to Iran who has publicaly said they would destroy Israel.    Time to wake up to reality.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 14, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> I think you will find that Charlie Hebdo frequently mock the Pope, Jesus, and also hypocritical politians; their satire is directed at anybody, and everybody.



Equal opportunity mockers. My kind of people.


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## Debby (Jan 14, 2015)

So are you folks saying that other journalists don't loose their jobs if they poke fun at Jews?

http://rehmat1.com/2015/01/14/bbc-reporter-palestinians-suffer-hugely-at-jewish-hands/  On this link, a British journalist, Tim Wilcox by name, questioned what appears to him to be a double standard and British Jewery demanded he be fired and his boss, a Danny Cohen demanded that he apologize or loose his job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo   Wikipedia listing the firing of Maurice Sennet for what was deemed an anti-Semitic remark.  He later sued Charlie Hebdo and won his case.

And today, France is arresting people for 'hate speech and anti-semitism'.  What happened to the free speech that Charlie Hebdo counted on to hide behind as they offended Muslims around the world?

Not sure if anything would have happened one way or the other if the newspaper had insulted Christians, but apparently Jews are off limits.


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## Debby (Jan 14, 2015)

BobF said:


> Yes .............. Time to wake up to reality.




You want to focus on a small group of people who have taken over the government of that strip of land, and made themselves rich in the process, and you ignore the plight of Palestinians across the region.  Why are you doing that?  I think the best thing that could happen to start with in Gaza is that Hamas be gone and that would eliminate one of Israel's excuses for not honestly discussing peace.

As for Arafat, he did sign a letter recognizing Israel and promised to end the violence.  Following is a link to a paper written about the whole process, written by a Jewish professor at Oxford University.  http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The Rise and Fall of the Oslo Peace Process.html

I'm not hateful to Jewish people in general Bob, but I despise what the Israeli ADMINISTRATION and the IDF are doing daily to the Palestinians.  Do you not detect the difference between 'individuals' and 'Administration"?  I've told you repeatedly what my beliefs are, either you or someone else here and if you want to ignore that, well not much I can do there is there?  

Everything I post is backed up by credible observers of the situation.  People on the ground in that region.  Journalists, Human Rights groups, University professors, UN observers and reporters, recognized historians, your own politicians who have had face to face meetings with all the individuals involved and ex-IDF soldiers who talk about their experiences as Israels enforcers.  Who do you listen to?  CNN, NBC.... Fox?  Reality, really?

Former Israeli IDF documents IDF abuse in Gaza and WB       http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/9/12/part_2_former_israeli_soldier_eran

B'Tselem on Settler violence, No Accountability                                        http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence/dual_legal_system

Red Cross on 'Life in the Shadows of the settlements'             https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/photo-gallery/israel-photos-160210.htm

Food deprivation for Palestinians                                          http://www.thenational.ae/thenation...on-diet-for-gaza-shows-the-blockade-will-fall

Amnesty International on water shortages for Palestinians      http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/israel-rations-palestinians-trickle-water-20091027

Ex-IDF Testimonials on abuse of civilian Palestinians               http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/72822


Like I offered, dozens of links.....please ask for them.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2015)

Sorry, but you are so far fetched and you have no time for reality at all.   No need to ask you for anything as all you seem to believe are those just as messed up as you are.   No matter what I have posted on this Israel situation you have your own twisted ideas.   Israel is not after the Palestinians as you keep claiming.    I have told you how the  hateful ones from Iran are the problem but you continue to ignore what I have posted.   Israel and the Palestinians have agreed many times to stop the problems, but then the jerks representing Iran keep stirring the pot.   Israel is forced to fight back to save their people from these bomb squads and killers.   You object to Israels defense of itself from crime and killings.   Why?   I say it again in different words.   It is time for you to grow up and realize just what is happening in the Israel and Palestinian territories.   The same will happen to others if Israel fails to defend itself successfully.    Keep calling my posts to be wrong if you feel they are.   Just be aware that there are plenty that think Israel deserves to fight for its freedoms and security from those radicals from Iran.    Without those radicals the Palestinians will be free of continued threats and attacks.   So some  folks need to redo their thinking a lot.


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## Debby (Jan 15, 2015)

BobF said:


> Sorry, but you are so far fetched and you have no time for reality at all.   No need to ask you for anything as all you seem to believe are those just as messed up as you are.   No matter what I have posted on this Israel situation you have your own twisted ideas.   Israel is not after the Palestinians as you keep claiming.    I have told you how the  hateful ones from Iran are the problem but you continue to ignore what I have posted.   Israel and the Palestinians have agreed many times to stop the problems, but then the jerks representing Iran keep stirring the pot.   Israel is forced to fight back to save their people from these bomb squads and killers.   You object to Israels defense of itself from crime and killings.   Why?   I say it again in different words.   It is time for you to grow up and realize just what is happening in the Israel and Palestinian territories.   The same will happen to others if Israel fails to defend itself successfully.    Keep calling my posts to be wrong if you feel they are.   Just be aware that there are plenty that think Israel deserves to fight for its freedoms and security from those radicals from Iran.    Without those radicals the Palestinians will be free of continued threats and attacks.   So some  folks need to redo their thinking a lot.




I have never said Israel doesn't have a right to protect itself.  Never.  But they have never offered the 'peaceful' communities of Palestinians anything that would encourage a growth in 'peace' and you will not find one example where they do that and instead there is a dearth of violence, deprivations and abuses even when they aren't involved in a conflict.  And when the 'peaceful' Palestinians hold PEACE MARCHES, Israel meets that with rubber bullets and violence. As for everything you've posted on Israel, well, not much there.  Your opinion???  Based on what?  Give me some human rights groups that refute any of my links.  Give me some articles from non-biased websites that show Oxfam and all the others to be wrong.  One other thing that I've kind of made a point of in all of my reading is not to give credence to any Palestinian websites.  I intentionally did this because I figured that I could weed out a greater degree of bias on the info that I was getting.  So when I ask you for an unbiased website, what I mean is where Jewish people aren't providing the information. Fairs fair right?

The UN, Red Cross, B'Tselem, Oxfam, ex-IDF soldiers and all the others who testify to the abuses of the Israeli government 'are messed up' and you're going to just go with CNN?  Okay, well free country.  Very, very interesting though because it's definitely a confirmation.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 15, 2015)

Here's a ten year old documentary on the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, and the US media coverage of it, for those interested.  It is long, and I've only watched a part of it.


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## BobF (Jan 15, 2015)

You are so twisted that you take a few folks comments to all inclusive.    I have been following these issues for years and far too often it has been the Palestinians that fail to offer and agree to Israeli peace offers with Pres Clinton or to the Oslo meetings and other efforts.   But you fail to acknolwedge that and keep saying it is the US or others that are the problem.   So from my point of view it is you that is all twisted and following some bleeding heart nonsense over facts.   What I posted to you was good info but you seem to wish to treat all I post as trash.   Your problem, so live with it yourself.   All those years with Arafat were jokes.    He would go to the meetings, shake hands, appear to be agreeing on terms, but then go home and have nothing but hate comments for the news folks.   He was not the same as the current Iranian killers that control much of the coastal Palestinian area.   But you can't even recognize that those are the ones that cause Israel to have so many problems with the local Palestinians.  If they were gone there would not be so much trouble for the Palestinians or Israeli folks.  Maybe peace could happen.   I would hate to have those kinds of folks in Canada or the US.    If we did we would have a long and hard war going quickly and no one would like the outcomes of those actions either.


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## BobF (Jan 15, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Here's a ten year old documentary on the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, and the US media coverage of it, for those interested.  It is long, and I've only watched a part of it.



Over an hour in length.   I will try to copy the link and keep the watching for some other time.   Thanks for the possible link.


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## Fern (Jan 15, 2015)

When a 'nation' openly states, 'we will not rest until Israel is annihilated', from Hamas, 'we are not terrorists we just want to destroy Israel., speaks for itself
I'm sure they will with their stone throwing.


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## Debby (Jan 16, 2015)

One more video to watch Bob.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ

This is a talk given by Miko Peled who is the son of a decorated Israeli general and who is ex-IDF himself.  Their family also lost a niece to a Palestinian suicide bomber a few years ago and he now goes around the country giving talks that talk about his support for the Palestinian people (note:  not support for Hamas or the PA, but the people).


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## BobF (Jan 16, 2015)

About time you said something positive about the Israeli people.   All your twisted hate nonsense needs to end.   This is just what I have been posting about that you keep denying.   I keep saying the Israeli folks have good justification for the wars they have to go through as they try to build up good will with the Palestinians and hope for peace.   If it was not for Hamas there would not be all this killing going on at all.

I will watch the film later when I have some time free.   Nice to see you take at least a partial step in the right direction.


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## Debby (Jan 16, 2015)

I've always had the same attitude Bob and haven't taken a 'step in any direction'.  I have NEVER supported Hamas's activities although I do understand that the Palestinian people voted them in, in an act of desperation because nobody else seemed to be willing to stand up for them at the time.  The problem for the Palestinian people is that folks can't seem to understand the level of desperation and frustration that they live with every day (not just when Israel is blasting them).  I would bet that if you were being treated the same way by the government of your area, you'd be crying out for help too.

By the way, did you happen to look at any of the links I provided?


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## Debby (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks for the great link Seabreeze.  I'm about 1/2 way through it and I can easily say that I knew everything that it states.   

I do hope that you take the time to watch it Bob because it is very enlightening.


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## BobF (Jan 16, 2015)

Debby said:


> I've always had the same attitude Bob and haven't taken a 'step in any direction'.  I have NEVER supported Hamas's activities although I do understand that the Palestinian people voted them in, in an act of desperation because nobody else seemed to be willing to stand up for them at the time.  The problem for the Palestinian people is that folks can't seem to understand the level of desperation and frustration that they live with every day (not just when Israel is blasting them).  I would bet that if you were being treated the same way by the government of your area, you'd be crying out for help too.
> 
> By the way, did you happen to look at any of the links I provided?



I do know that the Hamas folks pushed themselves onto the coastal Palestinians.    But the mountain Palestinian folks did not have to worry about that at all.   It seems like far too many folks in the area just shut up and allowed the Hamas to do as they decided.   Immediate end to a lot of the cooperative with Israel actions happened then.   And be cause of Hamas acting like killers and doing so all the time, Israel had to take action at times to try to settle things down and provide a few months of peace for all in the area.   No reason to be slamming Israel for that at all.   Peace will never come to the area until Iran gets shut down but with our current President, that is not likely to happen.

Yes I have looked as some links, yours and others, but I also have a lot of things in my life to worry about.   Trying to stop all this blame it all on the Israel folks take far too much time from me so I don't get too do it all.   Today for example, I have spent most of my time driving the wife around town for shopping, library, hair cutters, so not much time to please everyone.   I also have a couple other threads on this forum to work with and a couple other forums that I like to work with too.   I can only share so much, then fatigue.


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## Debby (Jan 16, 2015)

BobF said:


> I do know that the Hamas folks pushed themselves onto the coastal Palestinians.    But the mountain Palestinian folks did not have to worry about that at all.   It seems like far too many folks in the area just shut up and allowed the Hamas to do as they decided.   Immediate end to a lot of the cooperative with Israel actions happened then.   And be cause of Hamas acting like killers and doing so all the time, Israel had to take action at times to try to settle things down and provide a few months of peace for all in the area.   No reason to be slamming Israel for that at all.   Peace will never come to the area until Iran gets shut down but with our current President, that is not likely to happen.
> 
> Yes I have looked as some links, yours and others, but I also have a lot of things in my life to worry about.   Trying to stop all this blame it all on the Israel folks take far too much time from me so I don't get too do it all.   Today for example, I have spent most of my time driving the wife around town for shopping, library, hair cutters, so not much time to please everyone.   I also have a couple other threads on this forum to work with and a couple other forums that I like to work with too.   I can only share so much, then fatigue.





Bob what you are not understanding is that prior to Hamas being elected, Israel was doing the same things to the civilian Palestinian population which resulted in the people voting for a group who said they would 'protect them, speak for them, fight the injustice for them'.  Israel isn't reacting so much as the Palestinian people are reacting to occupation and continual provocation.  The Israeli government deserves to be 'slammed' because they are an illegal, occupying force who brutalize helpless people.  

If an occupying nation came to Arizona, and they were funded by a huge superpower, and they had all the latest military hardware and they shot your children, refused to give you building permits and then bulldozed your 'illegal' house and made you homeless or bulldozed your house because your angry brother did a criminal act or told you that you could not come out of your house for days at a time even to take your wife to the emergency ward of the hospital as she has a heart attack......how would you feel?  What would your reaction be?  That is what the Palestinian people live with every day.  How can you not be sympathetic to them?  I do not understand that.

I'm glad that you looked at some of the links and not for my own sense of importance, but for the sake of the people that are being abused, battered and oppressed!  Remember when Hitler's SS were rounding up Jews and we look back at the German people who said nothing, who looked the other way and we ask 'how could they let it happen'?  Well the West is looking the other way and saying nothing now and have been doing so for fifty years.  

My speaking out is based on the premise that if I am oppressed/murdered/imprisoned falsely, I would hope that someone would speak out on my behalf and I'm sure that you would hope the same thing.  We must do the same for others who need us to speak out now for them but we need to do it from a place of knowledge and that is something that you won't get from North American media (and I include Canada's media in that condemnation).


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 18, 2015)

KCVET:

Do I know how to use a search engine?
Pretty insulting!

However, I don't want to go searching around to find ways in which to prove YOUR point !
You need to present your own point !!!!
Not I.

Your post manages to be both totally unsubstantiated and rude at the same time!


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