# Mar. 2022 will the mandates end?



## chic (Jan 17, 2022)

Mar. 2022 makes two full years of the "state of emergency" and 4 weeks to flatten the curve. My question is : when the state of emergency expires do all the mandates die with it? Is this why there is such a scramble to vaccinate before that date?

When our Supreme Court heard a mandate case just recently, one of the justices asked the question I've been wondering about for over a year, "when does the state of emergency end?"


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## GAlady (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> Mar. 2022 makes two full years of the "state of emergency" and 4 weeks to flatten the curve. My question is : when the state of emergency expires do all the mandates die with it? Is this why there is such a scramble to vaccinate before that date?
> 
> When our Supreme Court heard a mandate case just recently, one of the justices asked the question I've been wondering about for over a year, "when does the state of emergency end?"


It will be over when the greedy pharm execs all become billionaires .


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## chic (Jan 17, 2022)

GAlady said:


> It will be over when the greedy pharm execs all become billionaires .


They are already, the mask manufacturers too. But the state of emergency cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely. I don't think our courts would approve.


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## Jeni (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> Mar. 2022 makes two full years of the "state of emergency" and 4 weeks to flatten the curve. My question is : when the state of emergency expires do all the mandates die with it? Is this why there is such a scramble to vaccinate before that date?
> 
> When our Supreme Court heard a mandate case just recently, one of the justices asked the question I've been wondering about for over a year, "when does the state of emergency end?"


Since it was never about health but *control *it may never end ..... 
That is why the continued  push  for a shot ...................even though they finally admit most people will get this virus ... 
FOCUS should have from the beginning should have been on TREATMENT.   

States that reached ends of temporary time frames often found a work around like lift for a short time then re issue new time on the clock. 

Oregon was just reported about a month ago making mask permanent ... not about health but the governor had time limits for those mandates and was out of time. 

For the many who are just NOW fed up with the mixed messages the goal post moving and most importantly the unreliable numbers given ..
Just look at what has been shown since some asked for hospitals to report those who came in for OTHER things and then tested positive  vs came in with serious Covid.   
Of those reports most show 50% in for other reasons..... but that changes the fear factor.  
 Trust and faith in government/ media and especially agencies like CDC , FDA etc is lost .....

Trust is earned back but as most in these positions Can"t understand that ... they think trust is something you demand from your minions. 

If it ever ends ...
in my state there already is a group working on law changes ....  to limit executive powers for governor so no future crisis is left in the hands of a control freak like we have now.


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## chic (Jan 17, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Since it was never about health but *control *it may never end .....
> That is why the continued  push  for a shot ...................even though they finally admit most people will get this virus ...
> FOCUS should have from the beginning should have been on TREATMENT.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that this is about control, not health. But will the courts stand for an endless "state of emergency" in peacetime when there is clearly no emergency anymore?

I heard England is supposed to end all mandates Jan. 26, 2022 so I wondered if the USA would be equally enlightened? Maybe our friends in the U.K. can let us know if this is true or no.


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## Sunny (Jan 17, 2022)

Since when is "mandate" a dirty word, or a criminal act?  The way some are writing on this forum, you would think so.

Out of curiosity, I looked up the definition of the word, and all the sites that defined it said basically the same thing. This one is from qz.com :

In fact, mandates and laws are effectively the same thing. The only difference is how they are initiated: Mandates are created and enacted by an executive branch, such as a state governor, rather than through a lengthier legislative process that _ends_ with the governor’s signature and new, durable law. Mandates are also usually temporary, and deal with an urgent issue.


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## chic (Jan 17, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Since when is "mandate" a dirty word, or a criminal act?  The way some are writing on this forum, you would think so.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I looked up the definition of the word, and all the sites that defined it said basically the same thing. This one is from qz.com :
> 
> In fact, mandates and laws are effectively the same thing. The only difference is how they are initiated: Mandates are created and enacted by an executive branch, such as a state governor, rather than through a lengthier legislative process that _ends_ with the governor’s signature and new, durable law. Mandates are also usually temporary, and deal with an urgent issue.


The Supreme court also questions the imposing of regulations under emergency use authorization when there is no defined end to the emergency. This is unheard of in peacetime. Whether or not it is criminal to force a healthy person to submit to an injection of a drug that has no product liability and no clinical data or lose their job is unethical at best and as history would indicate criminal at the worst. This is no longer "temporary" or "urgent". It's been twenty three months already.


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## AnnieA (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> Mar. 2022 makes two full years of the "state of emergency" and 4 weeks to flatten the curve. My question is : when the state of emergency expires do all the mandates die with it? Is this why there is such a scramble to vaccinate before that date?
> 
> When our Supreme Court heard a mandate case just recently, one of the justices asked the question I've been wondering about for over a year, "when does the state of emergency end?"



I think it should end when Covid surges don't overwhelm hospitals.  There are epidemiologists who believe the Omnicron variant surge is the last.  UK (which was a few weeks ahead of the US) numbers are plummeting. New York spiked first in the US and their percentages of new cases are decreasing.  

Healthcare is suffering from vaccine mandates and that will only get worse with the Supreme Court decision not recognizing natural immunity.  One of the first travel nurse companies to implement mandates last year had so many nurses quit that they're likely to go bottom up according to a local nurse who still works for them.  She said most who quit over the vaccine mandate were recovered and natural immunity wasn't considered by the company--bizarre scientifically that it isn't recognized.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> Mar. 2022 makes two full years of the "state of emergency" and 4 weeks to flatten the curve. My question is : when the state of emergency expires do all the mandates die with it? Is this why there is such a scramble to vaccinate before that date?
> 
> When our Supreme Court heard a mandate case just recently, one of the justices asked the question I've been wondering about for over a year, "when does the state of emergency end?"


When new forms of this stops coming out AND when they have this virus under control.  That's my opinion.  Probably another six months to a year - maybe.  I hate to be pessimistic.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 17, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> There are epidemiologists who believe the Omnicron variant surge is the last.


I sure hope so.  Only time will tell, but I am optimistic this is the light at the end of the tunnel.


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## chic (Jan 17, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> I think it should end when Covid surges don't overwhelm hospitals.  There are epidemiologists who believe the Omnicron variant surge is the last.  UK (which was a few weeks ahead of the US) numbers are plummeting. New York spiked first in the US and their percentages of new cases are decreasing.
> 
> Healthcare is suffering from vaccine mandates and that will only get worse with the Supreme Court decision not recognizing natural immunity.  One of the first travel nurse companies to implement mandates last year had so many nurses quit that they're likely to go bottom up according to a local nurse who still works for them.  She said most who quit over the vaccine mandate were recovered and natural immunity wasn't considered by the company--bizarre scientifically that it isn't recognized.



It's a huge disappointment that natural immunity in not recognized in the US. It makes a person question true motives.


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## Jules (Jan 17, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> I think it should end when Covid surges don't overwhelm hospitals


That’s the bottom line.


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## Jeni (Jan 17, 2022)

The only issue with you are talking hospitals is the clear difference coming to light...... 
that average is 50% NOT there for Covid but tested positive when there for other issues....
If we had real numbers it would be a clearer picture.


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## win231 (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> It's a huge disappointment that natural immunity in not recognized in the US. It makes a person question true motives.


It only makes _thinking_ people question motives.
Those who don't question are content to let others think for them.  And when things don't make sense, they rationalize to justify nonsense - as we've seen here.


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## win231 (Jan 17, 2022)

Jeni said:


> The only issue with you are talking hospitals is the clear difference coming to light......
> that average is 50% NOT there for Covid but tested positive when there for other issues....
> If we had real numbers it would be a clearer picture.


Real numbers won't generate the fear needed for blind compliance & selling non-stop vaccines & future drugs.


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## win231 (Jan 17, 2022)

chic said:


> It's a huge disappointment that natural immunity in not recognized in the US. It makes a person question true motives.


That's why they're trying so hard to make an example of Novak Djokovic.  If they recognize his immunity, they'll be forced to recognize many others' immunity.  They need to really "punish" him to instill fear in other thinking people.


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## Jeni (Jan 17, 2022)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-patients-getting-covid-19-130300699.html




More patients are getting COVID-19 during hospital stays. Experts worry it's because infected healthcare workers are sick on the job.

The CDC announced looser isolation rules for healthcare workers in December amid staffing shortages.​
The number of inpatients who contracted COVID-19 during their hospital stays rose shortly afterward.
Disease experts worry the CDC policy is fueling in-hospital transmission as infected employees return to work.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stunned many disease experts last month when it announced healthcare workers could return to work seven days after testing positive for COVID-19, instead of its previous 10-day recommendation.
The policy applies to people who are asymptomatic, or whose mild or moderate symptoms are improving, and test negative within 48 hours of returning to work. But the CDC said the isolation period could be cut even more — down to five days — in the event of staffing shortages. In that case, healthcare workers wouldn't need to test out of isolation. And in a crisis scenario, when there's no longer enough staff to provide safe patient care, there would be no work restrictions at all, the CDC said.
Nearly one-quarter of US hospitals are reporting critical staffing shortages, according to the latest data from the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Often, that means having to choose between treating sick patients and allowing infected employees to return to work (though hospitals can decide for themselves what constitutes a critical shortage, NPR reported).
But disease experts fear the CDC policy is fueling in-hospital transmission, since research shows that some people with COVID-19 can still be infectious for up to 10 days.
"It's a little bit of pandemic theater. You're making the decision to bring healthcare workers back when they're sick," Susan Butler-Wu, an associate professor of clinical pathology at the University of Southern California, told Insider last month. "I don't think the data support that."
A week after the CDC's announcement on December 23, the total number of hospitalized patients who contracted COVID-19 at least two weeks into their hospital stay went up 80% — from around 1,200 to 2,200 patients — according to HHS data.
In-hospital COVID-19 transmission in the US​





US Department of Health and Human Services
Those patients "initially came into the hospital for something other than COVID and then were found to be positive," Dr. Jorge Caballero, a data scientist with the nonprofit Coders Against COVID, told Insider. "The only place that they can possibly get COVID is in the hospital, because that's where they've been and they didn't have it to begin with."
Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital, said many hospitals are implementing the CDC's recommendations before they reach critical staffing shortages.
"If it's choice between nothing and somebody who came back to work a little sooner than they should and wears PPE, I would take the latter," he said. "But we should not do that unless it's absolutely necessary because bringing people back to work sooner does increase the risk of spread. You have to decide if that increased risk is worth it. In a lot of cases, it's not."
Omicron's transmissibility doesn't fully explain the sharp rise of COVID-19 in hospitals​In-hospital transmission is rising on the local level, too.
"When we look specifically at large hospital systems where there was a quick implementation of the new CDC policies, we see this huge jump," Caballero said.
On December 31, Rhode Island's Department of Health updated its isolation guidance to reflect the new CDC recommendations for hospital and nursing home workers. Within days, the number of inpatients who contracted COVID-19 during their hospital stay skyrocketed.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 18, 2022)

Then the CDC shortened it to 5 days.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s1227-isolation-quarantine-guidance.html


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## chic (Jan 18, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's why they're trying so hard to make an example of Novak Djokovic.  If they recognize his immunity, they'll be forced to recognize many others' immunity.  They need to really "punish" him to instill fear in other thinking people.


I agree. They just wanted to punish Novak and the rest of us who don't willingly submit to their authority.


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## Packerjohn (Jan 18, 2022)

I give up!  The world seems to have gone mad.


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## Jeni (Jan 18, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's why they're trying so hard to make an example of Novak Djokovic.  If they recognize his immunity, they'll be forced to recognize many others' immunity.  They need to really "punish" him to instill fear in other thinking people.


Australia has decided to 'let Covid rip.' Is that a good idea?​https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...-let-covid-rip-is-that-a-good-idea/ar-AASPz7s​
so according to this article they are discussing  and planning to ease restrictions and learn to live with virus..... 

SO WHY all this fuss over a tennis player ...... 
not health concerns but a person who fell out of line of "THE RULES"   
this seems to be a good example of CONTROL not health


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## chic (Jan 18, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Australia has decided to 'let Covid rip.' Is that a good idea?​https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...-let-covid-rip-is-that-a-good-idea/ar-AASPz7s​
> so according to this article they are discussing  and planning to ease restrictions and learn to live with virus.....
> 
> SO WHY all this fuss over a tennis player ......
> ...


Well, I've heard the opposite so I guess time will tell. I think all the fuss over the tennis player was simply to punish him for not submitting. This supposedly showed everyone who is boss in Australia.


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## Jeni (Jan 18, 2022)

chic said:


> Well, I've heard the opposite so I guess time will tell. I think all the fuss over the tennis player was simply to punish him for not submitting. This supposedly showed everyone who is boss in Australia.


like anything with this situation i do not believe it until i see it ... i am sure international community does NOT want any country to let up the fear machine because it would make others look silly continuing their mandates and mayhem.


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## chic (Jan 19, 2022)

Jeni said:


> like anything with this situation i do not believe it until i see it ... i am sure international community does NOT want any country to let up the fear machine because it would make others look silly continuing their mandates and mayhem.


Perhaps. I can see your argument. But England is going to make a decision today, I believe it's today, on whether or not to end covid restrictions in March and since England has been a well respected world leader, I am hoping this decision will influence other world leaders to find an acceptable exit strategy. We need one. While our leaders need to save face somehow over the mess they've made over the handling of this pandemic.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 19, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Australia has decided to 'let Covid rip.' Is that a good idea?​https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...-let-covid-rip-is-that-a-good-idea/ar-AASPz7s​
> so according to this article they are discussing  and planning to ease restrictions and learn to live with virus.....
> 
> SO WHY all this fuss over a tennis player ......
> ...


I hate that term, let it rip. Some journalist used it and implied that it's a quote from the Great Barrington Declaration, but it isn't.

Anyway (@chic) I'm confident restrictions will be lifted within a few months. The experts who've been running the show just can't deny the data any longer. I'm sure there will be an annual or semi-annual covid vaccine offered for seniors and people with compromised immune systems from now on. I'm sure children _will not_ be vaccinated annually for covid, though, because the data that's coming out now shows it's absolutely unnecessary if they're reasonably healthy. Healthy children simply aren't susceptible to severe covid. By a huge margin, more children die of the flu every year than have died from covid over the past 2 years plus...since the start of the pandemic. I doubt we'll ever see a lockdown again. There was no significant benefit, and it actually caused serious harm. There's going to be a lot of people writing about this over the next several years.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Healthcare is suffering from vaccine mandates and that will only get worse with the Supreme Court decision not recognizing natural immunity. One of the first travel nurse companies to implement mandates last year had so many nurses quit that they're likely to go bottom up according to a local nurse who still works for them. She said most who quit over the vaccine mandate were recovered and natural immunity wasn't considered by the company--bizarre scientifically that it isn't recognized.


I can see the logic, natural immunity is important, but it is less clear to me how this should be determined and what consideration of it would be.  What are you thinking?


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## charry (Jan 19, 2022)

Just heard from our pm ,in the U.K. …. that no masks will be needed as from next week, and as from mid march
everyone has to look after themselves ……..we. Should of  Done this from the start ..!!


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's why they're trying so hard to make an example of Novak Djokovic.  If they recognize his immunity, they'll be forced to recognize many others' immunity.  They need to really "punish" him to instill fear in other thinking people.


Much like they needed to make an example of Muhammad Ali when he said:
_"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called ***** people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality."_


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## Jeni (Jan 19, 2022)

charry said:


> Just heard from our pm ,in the U.K. …. that no masks will be needed as from next week, and as from mid march
> everyone has to look after themselves ……..we. Should of  Done this from the start ..!!


I am so glad to hear this... finally someone came to their senses ... hopefully other countries follow suit quickly.

Yes, this should have been done from the start .... protect the vulnerable and have others care for themselves.

I hope we can move forward with a similar plan but seriously doubt the US will give up the fear machine and control so soon. 

This divide over this issue here anyway will NOT fade as fast as the masks and signs will...... 
the entrenched will be furious the end is near...


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## AnnieA (Jan 19, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I can see the logic, natural immunity is important, but it is less clear to me how this should be determined and what consideration of it would be.  What are you thinking?



Proof of positive test from medical records...maybe a six month time frame though studies before the Omnicron variant showed immunity lasting longer than that.   After six months, antibody testing.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Proof of positive test from medical records...maybe a six month time frame though studies before the Omnicron variant showed immunity lasting longer than that. After six months, antibody testing.


Thanks, and then you would treat people who have the antibodies naturally as though they had the vaccine?

Are there places where this is being done?


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## Jeni (Jan 19, 2022)

a few businesses in my area accept this .... 
think that is why government did not really push for antibody tests........ but  instead told people theirs faded and they still must take the shot


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

Jeni said:


> a few businesses in my area accept this ....
> think that is why government did not really push for antibody tests........ but  instead told people theirs faded and they still must take the shot


We have to expect them to justify their mandates any way they can.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

Jeni said:


> a few businesses in my area accept this ....
> think that is why government did not really push for antibody tests........ but  instead told people theirs faded and they still must take the shot


Do we know the relative benefits and time of protection for vaccination vs natural immunity?  If I had to guess I would think the natural immunity better.  However but it would be a wild guess and not an expert one.


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## Jeni (Jan 19, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Do we know the relative benefits and time of protection for vaccination vs natural immunity?  If I had to guess I would think the natural immunity better.  However but it would be a wild guess and not an expert one.


heard various debates on this ....natural would have the whole body approach.....


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## Lawrence00 (Jan 19, 2022)

18 months out, I still tested positive for the full set of natural antibodies.


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## Jeni (Jan 19, 2022)

Lawrence00 said:


> 18 months out, I still tested positive for the full set of natural antibodies.


living proof that their assumptions..... as they used we think / it should or could fade as science...are wrong


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## JaniceM (Jan 19, 2022)

win231 said:


> Much like they needed to make an example of Muhammad Ali when he said:
> _"Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called ***** people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I’m not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality."_


Cassius Clay was a draft-dodging bum.  Period.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

Jeni said:


> living proof that their assumptions..... as they used we think / it should or could fade as science...are wrong


It is good news for @Lawrence00 and good to know that in at least  his case it has not faded.  

What we really need however is large population level epidemiological studies to answer the question.  I have not been able to find anything like that.  It would be very useful, as I say my non-expert guess would be that the natural immunity is better, but I have no real basis for that...


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## Jules (Jan 19, 2022)

From a google search:


> What is a COVID-19 antibody test?
> 
> 
> • An antibody (serology) test tells if you have antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. These antibodies may have developed in response to a previous infection by the SARS-CoV-2 virus or in response to vaccination. *This test is done using a sample of your blood.*
> ...



How often do we want to have blood samples taken? 

And if you have antibodies, how long do they last?

Tom & Rita Hanks were a couple of the first ‘known’ folks in early 2020 with Covid and they were lucky that they could get care in the Australian hospital. Rita lost her antibodies within a few months.  

Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again.  Listened to Penn Jillette talking about his second dose of Covid this month. The first time was in the fall.   Read of some other cases of reoccurrence too.  

After so many having Covid, many of them should have the antibodies.  IMO, anyone who has any blood tests should automatically have their antibodies tested.


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## Jeni (Jan 19, 2022)

Jules said:


> From a google search:
> 
> 
> How often do we want to have blood samples taken?
> ...


good point.... there are some people  that  antibodies seemingly did not last .....while others like Lawrence that  it did last 
we have to stop thinking there is a .....one size fits all solution... ever.

Perhaps if people had an antibody test and their faded quickly .... maybe they should take a shot ..................but for others that have longer immunity it should be a choice 

There are studies now showing for Many 98.6 is not their normal temp and often is lower ...... i had a 97.2 the day i tested postive.... i  temp machine like we had at work would have passed me straight through.....  
YET for many some are still subjected to.... _having temps taken daily  ....looking for a symptom ....when saying they are looking for Asymptomatic people...._
That never made sense to me


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## Becky1951 (Jan 19, 2022)

Jules said:


> From a google search:
> 
> 
> How often do we want to have blood samples taken?
> ...


"Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again"

Same as with the vaccine.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> "Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again"
> 
> Same as with the vaccine.


That is right, however for policy or decision making it would be more helpful to know, both for vaccine and natural, how powerful the antibodies are and how long do they last.  That is how much are your chances of infection reduced and for how long.

If we knew that it would be easier to know what should be done.  I don't know why there are not good studies on this, or none I can find anyway.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 19, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> It is good news for @Lawrence00 and good to know that in at least  his case it has not faded.
> 
> What we really need however is large population level epidemiological studies to answer the question.  I have not been able to find anything like that.  It would be very useful, as I say my non-expert guess would be that the natural immunity is better, but I have no real basis for that...


There are video lectures about vaccine/natural immunity studies and findings on YouTube.

A few really good non-political actual virologist, epidemiologist, doctor of infectious diseases channel names include "merogenomics" , "Drbeen Medical Lectures" , and "Vincent Racaniello" .

There are others.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 19, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> "Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again"
> 
> Same as with the vaccine.


Immunity natural and otherwise isn't measured by the presence of antibodies. Antibodies are only present and active while a person is sick. They decrease and disappear as you recover and get well. T-cell memory is how immunity is measured. Our T-cell memory is what keeps us all from contracting and dying of measles, polio, and common colds.


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Cassius Clay was a draft-dodging bum.  Period.


Just as with the Covid situation, anyone who's not a programmed sheep is irritating to some.


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## WheatenLover (Jan 19, 2022)

win231 said:


> Just as with the Covid situation, anyone who's not a programmed sheep is irritating to some.


Win, what is the definition of a "programmed sheep"?


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

WheatenLover said:


> Win, what is the definition of a "programmed sheep"?


Someone who believes everything they're told & blindly does whatever they're told without any thought - usually because many others are doing it.


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## WheatenLover (Jan 19, 2022)

win231 said:


> Someone who believes everything they're told & blindly does whatever they're told without any thought - usually because many others are doing it.


Okay, so I'm triple-vaccinated, but not a "programmed sheep".


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## chic (Jan 19, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I hate that term, let it rip. Some journalist used it and implied that it's a quote from the Great Barrington Declaration, but it isn't.
> 
> Anyway (@chic) I'm confident restrictions will be lifted within a few months. The experts who've been running the show just can't deny the data any longer. I'm sure there will be an annual or semi-annual covid vaccine offered for seniors and people with compromised immune systems from now on. I'm sure children _will not_ be vaccinated annually for covid, though, because the data that's coming out now shows it's absolutely unnecessary if they're reasonably healthy. Healthy children simply aren't susceptible to severe covid. By a huge margin, more children die of the flu every year than have died from covid over the past 2 years plus...since the start of the pandemic. I doubt we'll ever see a lockdown again. There was no significant benefit, and it actually caused serious harm. There's going to be a lot of people writing about this over the next several years.


I hope there will be accountability as well. Not many know of the Great Barrington Declaration of Oct. 2020. The experts had it buried and the three doctors who dared to write it discredited as conspiracy theorists. 

Personally, I want my life and full freedoms back like 2019 and I want it immediately like they will have in England. There is no reason not to. Think of all the people who got vaccinated just to be able to go somewhere they used to go. This has been a travesty.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Cassius Clay was a draft-dodging bum. Period.


Back in the day I would have agreed, however as I get older and have more perspective I can respect him.  He seems to have really been a conscientious objector on religious grounds.  Even though back then I had no time for his religion or explanations.  And he willingly went to jail rather than escaping to Canada or some other haven, which would have been easy for him.

So today I have to disagree.  

And I was slow to call him Mohamad Ali, but now do.  Dropped the Cassius thing years ago.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> There are video lectures about vaccine/natural immunity studies and findings on YouTube.
> 
> A few really good non-political actual virologist, epidemiologist, doctor of infectious diseases channel names include "merogenomics" , "Drbeen Medical Lectures" , and "Vincent Racaniello" .


Thanks @Murrmurr these are good!  Watching them takes time, but so far it does seem to be as you say good non-political analysis.  I guess I am lazy, but I would rather see the peer reviewed published studies, a quicker read.  But these are probably the best lecture or commentary type things I have seen.

This is the kind of thing we need in the US!

However my youtube now seems to be converted to Danish, LOL!


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

WheatenLover said:


> Okay, so I'm triple-vaccinated, but not a "programmed sheep".


If you gave your decision to get vaccinated some thought, you're not a programmed sheep.
If you made a decision to get vaccinated _only because many others have_, you're a programmed sheep.
If you repeatedly tell others to make the same decision you made & ridicule them for not making the same decision, you're programmed & trying to program others.


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Back in the day I would have agreed, however as I get older and have more perspective I can respect him.  He seems to have really been a conscientious objector on religious grounds.  Even though back then I had no time for his religion or explanations.  And he willingly went to jail rather than escaping to Canada or some other haven, which would have been easy for him.
> 
> So today I have to disagree.
> 
> And I was slow to call him Mohamad Ali, but now do.  Dropped the Cassius thing years ago.


Actually, he didn't go to jail (if my memory serves me).  He was threatened with a 5-year sentence, which he was willing to serve.
He wasn't allowed to work for several years.  No income.
I think morality was a bigger part of the picture for him than religion.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 19, 2022)

win231 said:


> Actually, he didn't go to jail (if my memory serves me). He was threatened with a 5-year sentence, which he was willing to serve.
> He wasn't allowed to work for several years. No income.
> I think morality was a bigger part of the picture for him than religion.


Got curious and it looks like you are mostly right about the jail time.  He does seem to have spent 10 days in jail after his arrest and before his trial and maybe before posting bail? (https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=DS19681217.2.90&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1)  However after his conviction he did not go to jail.  But he did lose the right to box for several key years.  And he did stay in the US making himself available for jail if so ordered.

Don't know about the morality vs religion thing, you may be right.  But the religious objection was a legal defense for what he did that he was denied.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 19, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Immunity natural and otherwise isn't measured by the presence of antibodies. Antibodies are only present and active while a person is sick. They decrease and disappear as you recover and get well. T-cell memory is how immunity is measured. Our T-cell memory is what keeps us all from contracting and dying of measles, polio, and common colds.


Yes I know that. My response was to, 
"Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again"


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## Murrmurr (Jan 19, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Yes I know that. My response was to,
> "Having Covid doesn’t guarantee that your antibodies will last nor that you won’t get Covid again"


Oh.

Sorry 'bout that.


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## charry (Jan 20, 2022)

2yrs down the line , with no vaccinations , 
hubby and I have just kept ourselves safe when being out and having visitors ….
and that’s how it will be now ……
even before the COVID , we steered clear of anyone who had colds and coughs , 
and that’s how we will carry on ……….


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## AnnieA (Jan 20, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Thanks, and then you would treat people who have the antibodies naturally as though they had the vaccine?
> 
> Are there places where this is being done?


I've mostly read about European countries accepting proof of prior infection without requiring antibody levels. Think there's an EU pass based on that as well.


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## AnnieA (Jan 20, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Immunity natural and otherwise isn't measured by the presence of antibodies. Antibodies are only present and active while a person is sick.



Binding antibodes usually show up in blood tests after infection.  Mayo Clinic states: "Results of COVID-19 antibody tests may not always be accurate, especially if the test was done too soon after infection..."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/covid-19-antibody-testing/about/pac-20489696

Mayo's indications for binding antibody testing:


You had symptoms of COVID-19 in the past but weren't tested
You're about to have a medical procedure done in a hospital or clinic, especially if you've had a positive COVID-19 diagnostic test in the past
You've had a COVID-19 infection in the past and want to donate plasma, a part of your blood that contains antibodies that can help treat others who have severe cases of COVID-19

There are more sophisticated antibody tests used for research and some of these are in the works for general use.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 20, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Binding antibodes usually show up in blood tests after infection.  Mayo Clinic states: "Results of COVID-19 antibody tests may not always be accurate, especially if the test was done too soon after infection..."
> 
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/covid-19-antibody-testing/about/pac-20489696
> 
> ...


It's probably safe to say that since early 2019, never before have more medical researchers looked at viruses more deeply and learned more.


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## AnnieA (Jan 20, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> It's probably safe to say that since early 2019, never before have more medical researchers looked at viruses more deeply and learned more.





Murrmurr said:


> Immunity natural and otherwise isn't measured by the presence of antibodies. Antibodies are only present and active while a person is sick. ...




Yep.  And lots more to learn.   But what I meant by the Mayo post in response to is to show that antibodies don't show during active infection.  Antigens do show while ill (that's when you get a positive rapid test which measures antigens) and they trigger post infection antibody production.  So while you're sick, you have antigens, then after you make antibodies.  That's in general, not just Covid.


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