# Woman Shot and Killed in Rampage on Capitol Hill



## SeaBreeze (Oct 3, 2013)

I think this woman had mental issues, and may have been of pharmaceutical drugs, but I'm not sure yet.  With her one year old child in her car, she rammed into security barriers, and hit a policeman with her car, eventually they ended up shooting her...http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/03/uscapitol-lockdown/2916679/


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2013)

The stories I've read are rather conflicting. 
The link to USA Today says she was shot after she left the car and tried to flee.
Others have said that she was shot still sitting in the driver's seat.

She was from Connecticut and her family say she had no reason to be in Washington.

I find it hard to believe that the police were so trigger happy when there was a toddler in the car.
It is a very disturbing story with a lot of unanswered questions..


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## Diwundrin (Oct 4, 2013)

Trigger happy?  I'd say those cops hearts were pumping pure adrenalin with that kind of behaviour going on at the White House Warri.

It's all too bizarre for me, I'll wait for more details before passing any judgements.... but from I've gleaned so far...

They didn't know the child was in the car from what I heard so it wouldn't have entered their thinking.  Stopping a threat to the President was their job.  They stopped it.  End of section.  
So she wasn't rigged up with a bomb, they couldn't know that either.  Taking her out before she had a chance to set one off would have been my objective, and presumably theirs.  Playing nice and patting a potential suicide bomber down isn't recommended in the training manual.

As to what motivated her.


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

How do you not see a toddler in a car seat ?


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## Diwundrin (Oct 4, 2013)

C'mon it's happened here twice fairly recently.  Two cars have been stolen with toddlers in the back of them while Mum was in the shop because the car thieves didn't notice them!  One of them drove 2 kms and only noticed when the kid started chatting to him!  He had the decency to park it under a tree and leave the door open so it wouldn't suffocate before he scarpered.

If one couldn't be spotted by someone actually getting into the car then it's no stretch to imagine one wouldn't be noticed by pursuing police either.  
Also that car is very dark and very low slung at the back and all eyes would have been on the driver. 
 Did you see the video of it? Click on the show videos box, then on the camera icon nearest the front of the White House (or was it the Capitol?) on that map, it's News quality footage.
Yes I can believe they didn't see a child in there.

Edit:   never mind the video, that link gives me a different page now.  I'm having a really bad computer day. siiiiiigh.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

_This seems to be a more detailed report_
http://www.smh.com.au/world/police-...-us-capitol-into-lockdown-20131004-2uxx8.html


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

Hmnn, let's see. 

A car thief jumping into a car and driving off without looking behind doesn't see a child sleeping in the car seat behind him. It happens.

A phalanx of police, trained to assess a crisis situation and survey the scene for danger, several of whom have the car momentarily trapped with officers on both sides before it drives off ... they don't notice all the occupants of the car ? They don't use the radio ?

Who are they? The Keystone Cops?

Clearly there is a shoot-to-kill-and-ask-questions-later policy in place. No exemptions.


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## Diwundrin (Oct 4, 2013)

Whatever Warri.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

_I feel before we all jump to conclusions we need to wait for the other members who live there to let us know what really happened, i really can't see the Police firing on a car for no reason, and what the terrorists have put them through in the past few years i can understand their actions.
             They would not have been able to see the baby as it was only small, and they do have a duty to protect the public and after reading what the woman was doing i can understand their actions, but as i said let's wait for the members to let us know what occured._

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/shots-fired-us-capitol-building-lockdown/


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

The Herald Sun has put together a fairly comprehensive report.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wo...-did-she-do-this/story-fni0xs61-1226732973745


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## SifuPhil (Oct 4, 2013)

Looking at a crises scenario from the outside, and actually being _in_ it, are usually two very different things. You develop tunnel-vision and auditory exclusions, and your brain goes into fight-or-flight mode. You have to deal with the adrenaline dump, the nerves, and the interpretation of a constantly-changing scenario. You're trying to gather and process data while you're reacting - never an easy thing even in the best of times.

I've seen comments saying the cops should have shot out the tires. That's equivalent to saying you should shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand - you don't focus on small targets in a crises; you go for center-of-mass or, as in this case, the threat itself - the driver.

Whoever this woman is, whatever reason she went postal, doesn't matter. She was a direct threat to the Power Structure, and every American knows that when you put on THAT hat you're open game. She knew what she was doing, so we shouldn't cry that she was taken down.

Kid in the car? Yeah, I'm going to spend my precious few seconds of reaction time and pants-wetting terror while being run-over looking for an approved child safety seat in the car. 

BELIEVE me - in an emotionally-charged situation like that, Godzilla could walk right past you in a T-shirt and bandana and you wouldn't notice.


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## That Guy (Oct 4, 2013)

We will never know the truth of what happened and why.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 4, 2013)

They said she was suffering from post-partum depression after having her baby, and was also fired from her job for rough handling of patients and attitude...http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/b...n-After-Reports-of-Shots-Fired-226338921.html.  I can easily understand them not seeing a young baby in a car seat, as their head is nowhere as high as a child in the seat.  Also, if her windows were tinted, they couldn't see anything very well.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 4, 2013)

Looks like she was on anti-psychotic drugs...http://www.naturalnews.com/042345_Miriam_Carey_Capitol_Hill_shooting_psychiatric_drugs.html#


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> Looks like she was on anti-psychotic drugs...http://www.naturalnews.com/042345_Miriam_Carey_Capitol_Hill_shooting_psychiatric_drugs.html#



From your link





> The woman, it turns out, was not a suicide bomber but *a mental patient*.  She has been identified by law enforcement sources as Miriam Carey, and she had  a one-year-old child with her in the car (with no weapons of any kind). This did  not stop capitol police from shooting and killing her, of course, followed by  widespread applause and celebration across D.C. and the entire mainstream  media.
> 
> The incident highlighted the *total paranoia* that now rules  Washington: the assassination of a young female mental patient with bad driving  habits is now considered a "law enforcement success." I have no doubt that in  order to justify their bizarre actions, the police there are now hurriedly  planting evidence in the woman's apartment so they can say she had some other  dastardly motive.
> 
> ...


An assumption, no doubt. I hope there will be a full and independent coronial inquiry.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

_Any time there is a Police shooting it is always investigated thoroughly, a coronial hearing is compulsory   _


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## SifuPhil (Oct 4, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> Looks like she was on anti-psychotic drugs...



As is probably half of the country ...



Warrigal said:


> ... I hope there will be a full and independent coronial inquiry.





Jillaroo said:


> _Any time there is a Police shooting it is always investigated thoroughly, a coronial hearing is compulsory   _



Yet another reason the police are loathe to respond to your home invasion or your stolen gee-gaw complaint - when they do their job properly, the way they were _trained_ to do it, they are brought before a court. 

I'll say it once again - you couldn't PAY me enough to be a cop in this country. You're constantly fighting a battle on two fronts - the people you thought would support you end up putting the knife in your back.

No thanks.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

*Sifuphil wrote*


> Yet another reason the police are loathe to respond to your home invasion or your stolen gee-gaw complaint - when they do their job properly, the way they were trained to do it, they are brought before a court.
> 
> I'll say it once again - you couldn't PAY me enough to be a cop in this country. You're constantly fighting a battle on two fronts - the people you thought would support you end up putting the knife in your back.
> 
> No thanks.


_*My late husband would be the 1st to agree with you Phil, damned if you do and damned if you don't*_


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> As is probably half of the country ...
> 
> Yet another reason the police are loathe to respond to your home invasion or your stolen gee-gaw complaint - when they do their job properly, the way they were _trained_ to do it, they are brought before a court.
> 
> ...


Every unnatural death needs to be examined carefully and dispassionately.

My dad died suddenly in his bed from a heart attack and there was still an autopsy because he had not recently seen a doctor.  And rightly so IMO.

 We had an incident where a deranged man was surrounded by police on Bondi Beach and shot to death.
 The coronial inquiry did not lay personal blame on anyone but did recommend changes to procedure.
 We should learn from mistakes and try to do better.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

_Warrigal what makes you think that they don't have inquiries, i know from my late husband that it is a huge thing here in Australia and no doubt in USA when officers shoot someone, they all have to submit detailed  statements and are investigated thoroughly, they are not given a pat on the back for a job well done like you appear to be saying._


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2013)

I think you missed the key word in my post which was "independent". 
Did you see the whole congress stand and applaud the outcome?
There was more than police involvement in this event.
There was also FBI and possibly other secret service people.
It is vital that these agencies do not come to consider themselves above the law.

Remember that in the US judicial appointments are also political, with judges being elected rather than appointed.
Ours, once appointed, have tenure and are guaranteed independence from parliament and the executive.
They serve the law and the people, and cannot be pressured into anything else.

I'm not so sure about US realities, which is why I express the hope that and *independent* coronial inquiry take place.
We all know what she died of. Gunshots. What we don't know is how it came to that tragic outcome and whether it could have ended less tragically if different decisions we taken. No-one is being accused of murder but nevertheless a young mother was killed as if she was a terrorist, which in retrospect, she clearly was not. How did that happen is the question that needs answering. What we don't need is a whitewash to cover up cracks in the system.


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## Diwundrin (Oct 4, 2013)

Warri can I just say that I'm glad you're not in charge?  
The queue of crims and terrorists lined up patiently awaiting your judicial approval of response would be just a logistical nightmare.


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## Jillaroo (Oct 4, 2013)

_Well what we need to do is wait and see what the Police uncover in their investigation , leave it to the experts_


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## Happyflowerlady (Oct 5, 2013)

They wilł probably not have much of an investigative report, especially now that the Capitol Police, and all of Comgress has declared that they are heros, even though they didn't actually save anyone from anything. 
There are always at least two sides to everything, and since they police didn't know what she was there for, and it was our Capital, and our President, which they are sworn to protect, they probably did the best thing under the circumstances.

However, there are just some strange circumstances that I hope will be explained. 
From what I read, she was actually  stopped by the police three times. 
The first time, she was at a checkpoint, and they said there was some sort of an argument, and she drove off, apparently followed by several police cars. They should have seen the child in the back at that point, I would think.
Next, she arrived at the area where the posts were blocking the road, drove carefully and slowly into there and parked. This is all on the video that was taken by the Alheera news (apparently a government run news media, but they were talking in Arabic or some strange language ). 
When the police come up on both sides with guns drawn, she apparently panics ( thinks they will shoot her and hurt the child maybe ?), and she then backs into the police far and frantically drives off. After that, she is speeding, and the chase ensues. Again, the police should have seen a child in the back seat.

They then chase her down, force the car off the road, and she gets out of the car and tries to escape, and is shot in the back and killed.
The reports here vary. Some say they child was shot, but that was later changed to say that she was in the hospital, and in good condition, and then that she was fine, implying that she had not been injured. The age was reported variously as 1-5 years in different reports. In the picture, she looks about 2 to me. 
The whole drivers side of the car is riddled with bullets.

If she drove all the way from Connecticut, why did she have the child in the back seat  if no one else was in the passenger seat ? When you have a baby, you usually put them beside you, in case they get sick, or something happens, and you need to reach them fast. Plus, you can see the child, and she can see you if she is up front.

Some have said it was suicide by cop, since she was obviously unarmed and not combative in any way. But that doesn't fit with her trying to escape when she discovered they had guns drawn and thought they were going to shoot her. And why would she take a child along to do that sort of thing anyway ? 

Some witnesses report seeing another person in the front seat of the car, a man who had a gun, and ran away. From the pictures, it is hard to tell, but it did look like the police were aiming at someone on the passenger side when she was stopped and they had her surrounded.  If you look at the picture of the car, it looks like there could be two heads in the car, but it is pretty hard to try and tell.

So far, none of it really makes sense to me, but I am still reading the reports, and looking at the news clips that I can find.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2013)

> They wilł probably not have much of an investigative report, especially now that the Capitol Police, and all of Congress has declared that they are heroes, even though they didn't actually save anyone from anything.


A police inquiry is one thing but a coronial inquiry is a different matter. It has the power to subpoena witnesses.
It is not a hurried process and it may be a year or more before findings are released.

One thing is certain, the media is a very unreliable source of facts. They broadcast an awful lot of hearsay and speculation.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 5, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> Every unnatural death needs to be examined carefully and dispassionately.



And who gets to define "unnatural"? I don't think there are very many "natural" deaths from old age. 



> My dad died suddenly in his bed from a heart attack and there was still an autopsy because he had not recently seen a doctor.  And rightly so IMO.



I was under the impression that an autopsy can be requested in _any_ case, but in criminal cases such as homicide by firearm I don't see the need to waste the taxpayer's money by performing an autopsy with the resultant "Lead Poisoning" as COD.  

My oldest brother passed in his sleep at 46 - there was no autopsy. My middle brother shot himself - no autopsy. Father died at 48, "supposedly" from gangrene in the intestines - no autopsy. Mother at 54 from multiple strokes - no autopsy. 

I've always thought that an autopsy is only performed when someone cares. That may sound cold but that's how I see it. I doubt there are many performed on the homeless when they die. 



> We had an incident where a deranged man was surrounded by police on Bondi Beach and shot to death.
> The coronial inquiry did not lay personal blame on anyone but did recommend changes to procedure.
> We should learn from mistakes and try to do better.



So what was the procedural change - did they switch to rubber bullets? Mace? Feathers and cream-pies at twenty paces?

When you encounter a mad dog you put it down. No one questions you (except perhaps GreenPeace, but that's another thread  ) as to why or how you did it. But now, in this touchy-feely "everyone has equal rights" New Age world we second-guess the men and women that we pay to protect us.

When they decide they've had enough and walk off the job _en masse_ I want to see how effective these liberal measures are ...


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## Sid (Oct 5, 2013)

Warrigal, our federal judges are appointed by the president subject to approval by the senate. They are appointed for life unless impeached.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> So what was the procedural change - did they switch to rubber bullets? Mace? Feathers and cream-pies at twenty paces?
> 
> When you encounter a mad dog you put it down. No one questions you (except perhaps GreenPeace, but that's another thread  ) as to why or how you did it. But now, in this touchy-feely "everyone has equal rights" New Age world we second-guess the men and women that we pay to protect us.
> 
> When they decide they've had enough and walk off the job _en masse_ I want to see how effective these liberal measures are ...


First, humans are not dogs, even when they are deranged. Second, for the citizens to have confidence in their various police forces, there must be accountability.

The incident on Bondi Beach involved a French tourist sho was shot to death when he was having a psychotic episode. You can well imagine the international repercussions but it is mandatory in NSW for a coronial inquest at the highest lever for *any* death in custody. This term is quite broad and includes


_any police operation calculated to apprehend a person(s);_
_a police siege or a police shooting_
_a high speed police motor vehicle pursuit_
_an operation to contain or restrain persons_
_an evacuation;_
_a traffic control/enforcement;_
_a road block_
_execution of a writ/service of process_
_any other circumstance considered applicable by the State Coroner or a Deputy State Coroner_

In 2001 there were 37 deaths in custody in NSW, of which 5 were persons of Aboriginal descent. Every one was subject to a coronial enquiry. A summary of findings taken from the Chief Coroner's report of 2001

_In most cases where a death has occurred as a result of or in the course of a police operation, the behaviour and conduct of police was found not to warrant criticism by the Coroners. However criticism of certain aspects were made in the following matters:-

_

_778/97 the Deputy State Coroner was critical of police response to the incident and made recommendations accordingly._


_1751/00 the State Coroner expressed concern at the delay in deployment of specialist officers to a potentially life threatening situation.  The State Coroner urged the NSW Police Service to analyse the facts of the case from an operational perspective and implement change where it is considered appropriate._


_2028/00 the State Coroner stressed the need for the NSW Police Service to address the issue of immediately separating police when they are involved in a police operation or a death in custody so that their versions of the incident cannot be concocted._
_ 
In the following matters the actions of the police were commended:-

_

_778/97 the Deputy State Coroner commended police for exercising exceptional judgments and showing a great deal of courage when dealing with a potentially life threatening situation._


_182/01 the Senior Deputy State Coroner found that police acted professionally and appropriately._
_ 


191/01 the State Coroner commended the police officers for attempting to make the deceased safe.  He found they nearly lost their lives in doing so.
 
We will continue to remind both the Police Service and the public of the high standard of investigation expected in all coronial cases.

_The case of the French tourist Roni Levi is not covered in the 2001 report because the inquiry was not finished at this time but here is a sample of the findings of a case of a hanging while in custody, with the recommendations that arose from the inquiry.

_*2096 OF 1999* *Male aged 29 years died on 10 October 1999 at Goulburn Correctional Centre.  Finding handed down on 18 January 2001 at Goulburn by Jacqueline Milledge, Deputy State Coroner.*
A.M. was an inmate at the Goulburn Correctional Centre serving seven years for Armed Hold Up offences and Demand Money with Menaces.

On 9 October, the deceased was moved 'one out' and, as his possessions were placed in the new cell, AM spent time in the yard until 'lock up' at 3pm.  About 8:15am on 10 October he was found hanging from the top bunk by a torn bed sheet.  The deceased had committed suicide.  There was no other person involved in his death.

Concerns raised by the family included the amount of medication their son was on at the time of his death, how he managed to have a torn sheet in his possession, and why some prison records were missing.

Correctional Officer's gave evidence that inmates often fashion torn sheets into clothes lines to enable them to have control over the drying of their washing to safeguard against theft.  The officers stated that as soon as the lines are confiscated, another appears within half an hour.

At inquest, the Coroner was satisfied that the prisoner’s medication was appropriate for his circumstances.

Another matter that was considered at inquest was his move from Junee prison, where his parents believed he was doing well, to Goulburn.  This move took place on the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] of September.  Evidence was given that he was moved for security reasons as white powder was discovered in his cell.  There was also prison 'intelligence' to suggest he was arranging the movement of monies to different accounts.  The initial 'NARCO' system of drug testing indicated the powder was 'speed', however, subsequent forensic analysis proved negative.  The Coroner was satisfied that the transfer of the prisoner was appropriate.

Throughout his period of incarceration the prisoner had accessed the health and counselling services regularly.  His medical record clearly shows Corrective Services responded to his requests for assistance timely and often.  From the records it appears his depression had many sources.  He disliked the facility at Goulburn, he was drug dependant, he was disappointed that his request for transfer was taking so long and he had not had a visit from his family for eleven months.  These issues, amongst other things, compounded and on 10 October 1999 he hanged himself
​*Finding:*

*That A. M. died as a result of hanging on the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of October, 1999, Between 3pm and 8.30am, in Cell 38, a wing of the Goulburn Correctional Facility.*


*Recommendations:*
__To the Commissioner for Corrective Services:

1. That the Commissioner for Corrective Services re-enforce the existing protocols to ensure all files and records relating to the deceased remain complete and intact until the Coronial process is at an end.

2. That all activities relating to the removal of items from any deceased's cell be recorded indicating the officers name, date and time and activity.

3. That all inmates under police investigation for drug use/possession, be interviewed by police at the time of referral or as soon as possible thereafter.

4. That the form accompanying any substance sent by police for analysis be endorsed to ensure a copy of the analysis certificate is forwarded to the Governor of the Correctional Centre involved immediately after analysis.

5. That the use of the current 'NARCO' system of presumptive drug identification be reconsidered as it appears to be unreliable.

6. That the existing protocols be re-enforced to ensure that the deceased's property in the cell remains undisturbed until the next of kin have been notified and afforded reasonable time to view the cell.

7. That the personal property of each inmate be searched when transferred from wing to wing.

8. That a record be kept when the officer in charge of the investigation directs that the crime scene is no longer to be preserved.  Details should include the time, date, direction and who was directed.  This record is to be kept by both the police and the Governor of the Correctional Centre.

Recommendations 3, 4 & 8 where also made to the Minister for Police.

_​


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2013)

Sid said:


> Warrigal, our federal judges are appointed by the president subject to approval by the senate. They are appointed for life unless impeached.



But aren't those judges only involved in interpreting the Constitution i.e in the High Court (Supreme Court?)
What about judges in other jurisdictions at state and county level?


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## Fern (Oct 5, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> But aren't those judges only involved in interpreting the Constitution i.e in the High Court (Supreme Court?)
> What about judges in other jurisdictions at state and county level?


The thread is about an awful tragedy in the US not Aussie. Let's stick to the original thread.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2013)

Fern, we got to this point because I raised a question about an independent inquiry into the death of the woman in Washington.
As often happens that caused some side discussion about judicial and coronial processes.
I can only offer Australian examples and I am interested in what happens in the US when someone is killed by law enforcement.

I've been watching a community facebook page in the name of Miriam Carey and it is very clear that there are many varying popular accounts of what took place. Questions have been raised about the minor damage to the front of her car, whether she was in or out of the car when she was shot, whether the police took the child from the car before or after shooting her, whether the car had tinted windows or not, and so on. This is why I raised the question of an inquiry. It is important that such questions be answered properly, otherwise conspiracy theories will proliferate.

But I take your point.


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