# A white 75 year old white protestor attacked by the police knocked down, caught on video.



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

What will the response be from the media, our leaders, and the protectors?  Not much response so far, guess he should have been black.

Color really does not matter to the police, but it matters to some.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 5, 2020)

Just saw this - No excuse for the blow that sent that man to the hospital for head trauma.  I believe the officer was removed from duty.  What struck me most - the officer apparently didn't understand what the protests were about: police brutality!


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Just saw this - No excuse for the blow that sent that man to the hospital for head trauma.  I believe the officer was removed from duty.  What struck me most - the officer apparently didn't understand what the protests were about: police brutality!


Haven’t your heard, police brutality doesn’t happen to white people.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 5, 2020)

We all see different things.

I see a lone protester who appears to be attempting to provoke an incident with a police line that was trying to clear the area when the curfew went into effect.  All people even protesters need to comply with laws and police orders.

I will agree that it looked like the force was greater than the threat.

IMO the majority of men and women on the police force just want to finish a shift and go home safely.

I think we should all stop looking for things to be outraged over and focus on the original incident that sparked these events.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 5, 2020)

There are now promises that police training will include the need to _FIRST_ try to *de-escalate* the situation. 

i.e. "Use your words!"

That's something taught to young children here.  Now, we apparently need to teach it to adults.


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## Pappy (Jun 5, 2020)

Got got through watching this on Facebook. Made my blood boil. He had a damn phone in his hand, no threat whatsoever. He’s doing okay in the hospital.
.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Pappy said:


> Got got through watching this on Facebook. Made my blood boil. He had a damn phone in his hand, no threat whatsoever. He’s doing okay in the hospital.
> .


Actually what I read was he was in serious condition.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> We all see different things.
> 
> I see a lone protester who appears to be attempting to provoke an incident with a police line that was trying to clear the area when the curfew went into effect.  All people even protesters need to comply with laws and police orders.
> 
> ...


Aren’t you outraged that there is no outrage?


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## fmdog44 (Jun 5, 2020)

We don't have to search too long to find idiots in every walk of life.


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## Warrigal (Jun 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Actually what I read was he was in serious condition.


He was bleeding from the back of the head and from his right ear. Those are not good signs.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> He was bleeding from the back of the head and from his right ear. Those are not good signs.


No they are not good signs.  But very few people care, the story is not a money maker apparently.  It’s all about the money, it’s not really about racism.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 5, 2020)

Let's see if I got this right. A white guy was beaten up, so that proves  white cops aren't racists, just thugs. But they aren't thugs, because the white guy didn't comply with some curfew laws,  so that's the legal basis to bash his face in. And since no black person was killed, the media didn't care. But it was the media, who stirred up things, because the cops were racists. And the reason the cops beat up people, was the rioters looting. But people were only forced to loot because of the actions of the racist thugs-the police. But the law abiding police only arrest criminals, who are all black, because whites don't commit crimes. But whites make up most of the media, who only focus on  blacks criminals as the new orange. But cops proportionally arrested  more blacks than whites, which proves cops are racists. But if one white guy gets beat up that proves white cops aren't racists, but the cops said his cell phone was a "gun", and killed him. But the media...................................................................................INFINITY.


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## hollydolly (Jun 5, 2020)

--


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## Ceege (Jun 5, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I will agree that it looked like the force was greater than the threat.



This is the problem.  How many times have we seen someone shot and killed who was unarmed?  https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/us/police-involved-shooting-cases/index.html


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## hollydolly (Jun 5, 2020)

ok here's a story from the UK.. just to show that not only some American cops are bad, but some British too... but our justice system is heavily weighted in favour of  the Police whenever they are at fault as you can see by this recent story...


The victim died several weeks after being attacked... ostensibly from 'unrelated injuries''... however  this Off duty copper received no penalty at all, despite it all being caught on Dashcam... ( he resigned his post so he couldn't be sacked)..but faced no police prosecution

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8379525/Police-officer-punched-70-year-old-road-rage.html


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 5, 2020)

Ceege said:


> This is the problem.  How many times have we seen someone shot and killed who was unarmed?  https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/us/police-involved-shooting-cases/index.html
> CeeGee - I'll save the link and read it later.  I have a limited tolerance level for some things, as this is a major issue for me.  My blood pressure is already high today.  But, I do appreciate the post.


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## win231 (Jun 5, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Just saw this - No excuse for the blow that sent that man to the hospital for head trauma.  I believe the officer was removed from duty.  What struck me most - the officer apparently didn't understand what the protests were about: police brutality!


I think police were quite sure what the protest was about.  But some officers enjoy hurting someone so much, they just can't control themselves & will use any opportunity to do it.  Brutality is the only way they can assert their manhood.  They are no better than criminal thugs, except that their police uniform allows it.


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## JaniceM (Jun 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> I think police were quite sure what the protest was about.  But some officers enjoy hurting someone so much, they just can't control themselves & will use any opportunity to do it.  Brutality is the only way they can assert their manhood.  They are no better than criminal thugs, except that their police uniform allows it.


There, finally the correct word:  _Some.  _


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## asp3 (Jun 5, 2020)

CNN is covering it a lot so I'm seeing reasonable media coverage.

This is one recent incident that isn't yet another in a string of incidents with similar situations.  I think the difference between the level of response to this and the level or response to the George Floyd and now Manuel Ellis is there is not perceived behavior towards many elderly people as opposed to perceived behavior towards many black people.

Based on the coverage I've seen (police officer or officers shoved the man causing him to fall backwards, hit his head on the sidewalk and then the entire group just walks on leaving him there) I hope the officers who shoved him are fired and the rest of the group faces repercussions for not taking action to assist their victim.

However as I said this is based on the coverage I've seen.  It might not be the complete picture yet.  There may have been other officers behind the group that moved in to help the man.  The coverage also doesn't show what the officers were moving towards which might have affected their lack of focus on their victim.


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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

> Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo of New York condemned the actions of the officers in a statement late Thursday night.
> “The incident in Buffalo is wholly unjustified and utterly disgraceful,” Mr. Cuomo said. “I’ve spoken with City of Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown and we agree that the officers involved should be immediately suspended. Police officers must enforce — NOT ABUSE — the law.”
> 
> “It sickens me,” the Erie County executive, Mark Poloncarz, wrote on Twitter about the video, which includes both vulgarity and disturbing images.
> ...



So, maybe it's time for you to stop shrieking about this, Aneeda?  The police didn't get away with it, it's been recognized as abuse, etc.  You are setting up a straw horse.

One of these outrages has nothing to do with the other, except that they are both clearly police abuse.  The explosive protest to Floyd's murder (and yes, murder is worse than knocking someone down, as bad as that was)  is the sickening frequency with which black people seem to be killed by police in this country, often for no reason at all.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Let's see if I got this right. A white guy was beaten up, so that proves  white cops aren't racists, just thugs. But they aren't thugs, because the white guy didn't comply with some curfew laws,  so that's the legal basis to bash his face in. And since no black person was killed, the media didn't care. But it was the media, who stirred up things, because the cops were racists. And the reason the cops beat up people, was the rioters looting. But people were only forced to loot because of the actions of the racist thugs-the police. But the law abiding police only arrest criminals, who are all black, because whites don't commit crimes. But whites make up most of the media, who only focus on  blacks criminals as the new orange. But cops proportionally arrested  more blacks than whites, which proves cops are racists. But if one white guy gets beat up that proves white cops aren't racists, but the cops said his cell phone was a "gun", and killed him. But the media...................................................................................INFINITY.


Well, unless the white guy has died, last I heard he was in the hospital, you are wrong No. 1.  The cops did not think the cell phone was a gun, they claimed he tripped. Wrong No. 2.  The white guy was not beat up, he was pushed.  wrong No 3.  The white guy‘s face wasn’t bashed in, he was pushed backwards, fell, and hit his head.  Wrong No. 4.

IMO a couple of mentions in the media does not equal the coverage the other guy has gotten so, wrong No. 5 IMO.  No one said white guys are not criminal.  Actually, I think most serial killers have been white.  Wrong No. 6.  Since the white guy was not beat up, it does not prove or disprove that cops are racists.  Wrong No. 7.  Comments about looters, wrong No.  8.

Other stuff were you go wrong-9 and 10.

But the BIGGEST, thing you got wrong is the orange guy comment.  The orange guy, as everyone knows, lives in the WHITE HOUSE.  The BIG WHITE HOUSE in Washington DC.  It’s on the east coast of the USA.  The sun comes up in the East, maybe that’s why he’s orange.  IDK.

In any case, in my opinion, you got it wrong.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

asp3 said:


> CNN is covering it a lot so I'm seeing reasonable media coverage.
> 
> This is one recent incident that isn't yet another in a string of incidents with similar situations.  I think the difference between the level of response to this and the level or response to the George Floyd and now Manuel Ellis is there is not perceived behavior towards many elderly people as opposed to perceived behavior towards many black people.
> 
> ...


What?  An officer came up from behind two officers and shoved the elderly man-hard.  The two officers who were involved went to kneel down to help and the officer who push the elderly man down, stopped them from helping.

No officers were running, all the officers I saw passed him by and left him laying on the ground.  At least it is an assault, if he dies maybe accidental death.  Either way, a wrongful death lawsuit.  But no protests, no riots, and no black man involvement so no racism, so no protestors, so no riots.  Hmm.

Unless white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that old white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that the black lives matter movement is all about the money?  Makes you wonder?


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## asp3 (Jun 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 - As I said, it is one horrible isolated incident as opposed to a long string of horrible incidents with similar circumstances.  To me that is why there are no protests.  I see these things as totally different situations and consider the difference in the responses as completely reasonable.  It appears that you don't agree and I'm sure we see the world very differently.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 5, 2020)

Aneeda. The "orange guy"-'The orange guy, as everyone knows, lives in the WHITE HOUSE. " He does not live in the White House. It is a reference to the fact that black convicts wear orange prison suits. Since you misinterpreted that reference, maybe, you missed that all I was doing was repeating the things people have voiced in this forum.


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## Judycat (Jun 5, 2020)

MSNBC keeps replaying 18 seconds of the video. What would really cook their goose is if it was just some guy from out of town just asking for directions. "Excuse me. What street am I on?" WHAM!!! Police tried to report the man lost his balance, tripped and fell. Yep, tripped and fell after flying backward from a body blow. Geez.


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## StarSong (Jun 5, 2020)

Here's the video - it's only 40 seconds but it sure shows a willful disregard for public safety on the part of these officers.
https://www.boston.com/news/national-news-2/2020/06/05/buffalo-protest-video


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Aneeda. The "orange guy"-'The orange guy, as everyone knows, lives in the WHITE HOUSE. " He does not live in the White House. It is a reference to the fact that black convicts wear orange prison suits. Since you misinterpreted that reference, maybe, you missed that all I was doing was repeating the things people have voiced in this forum.


Maybe I did miss what you were doing.    Do just black convicts wear orange prison suits or do white convicts wear orange prison suits as well?  If everyone wears the same prison suits, how do the guards tell the difference between the races?    It’s so confusing.

Maybe you missed what I was doing?


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Judycat said:


> MSNBC keeps replaying 18 minutes of the video. What would really cook their goose is if it was just some guy from out of town just asking for directions. "Excuse me. What street am I on?" WHAM!!! Police tried to report the man lost his balance, tripped and fell. Yep, tripped and fell after flying backward from a body blow. Geez.


Yup.  I agree.


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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

> Aneeda. The "orange guy"-'The orange guy, as everyone knows, lives in the WHITE HOUSE. " He does not live in the White House. It is a reference to the fact that black convicts wear orange prison suits. Since you misinterpreted that reference, maybe, you missed that all I was doing was repeating the things people have voiced in this forum.



She misses a lot, fuzzybuddy. Remember when I the cop in the Floyd case said he was only following orders, and I said he reminded me of an old war movie about the Nazis?  It triggered off a whole nonsensical diatribe about how offended she was because some of her relatives were Jewish (though what that had to do with anything beats me) and then boasted about putting me on "ignore" because I said that. Apparently you can't call a Nazi a Nazi, even when he is one.

So, consider the source.


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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

StarSong, it does show a willful disregard for public safety, and probably blatent stupidity.The cop was acting like a thug.  But I don't think he intended for the older man to fall, he was just shoving him, like a bully.  And I very much doubt that he wanted to kill him.  The cops seemed horrified, and I heard one of them say, "Call an ambulance!"  No one was kneeling on the old man's throat until he died.

One is an ugly incident involving a cop who should lose his job.  The other is murder.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> She misses a lot, fuzzybuddy. Remember when I the cop in the Floyd case said he was only following orders, and I said he reminded me of an old war movie about the Nazis?  It triggered off a whole nonsensical diatribe about how offended she was because some of her relatives were Jewish (though what that had to do with anything beats me) and then boasted about putting me on "ignore" because I said that. Apparently you can't call a Nazi a Nazi, even when he is one.
> 
> So, consider the source.


That you would bring Nazis into a conversation is beyond disgusting.


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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

Why, C'est Moi?  Nazi Germany happened.  A cop who brutally murders a man in this way and then says he was only following orders is very much acting like a Nazi.  We do have a Nazi party in this country; it's not so far-fetched.

Have you ever studied what the Nazis did in WW2?  Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it.


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## asp3 (Jun 5, 2020)

Would it have been fine if Sunny had said that during the Nuremberg trials "just following orders" was often given as the reason for committing the crimes the defendants were being tried for?


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## moviequeen1 (Jun 5, 2020)

This is the update about the incident that happened in my hometown last night
Martin Guigno,the 75 yr old activist ,is at local hosptial,Erie County Medical Center.He had serious head injuries but is awake& alert  today according to local news stations
The 2 cops involved were suspended,entire 57 officers on the Buffalo Emergency Response Team have resigned to support their fellow officers.They haven't quit their police jobs just the team.Erie County exec,Mark Polencarz was disappointed to hear the news


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## C'est Moi (Jun 5, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Would it have been fine if Sunny had said that during the Nuremberg trials "just following orders" was often given as the reason for committing the crimes the defendants were being tried for?


No, it would not.   

It used to be that any mention of NAZI on this board was immediately deleted.   Frankly, I'm disappointed that it was allowed to remain.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Why, C'est Moi?  Nazi Germany happened.  A cop who brutally murders a man in this way and then says he was only following orders is very much acting like a Nazi.  We do have a Nazi party in this country; it's not so far-fetched.
> 
> Have you ever studied what the Nazis did in WW2?  Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it.


Ask your Jewish friends if you have any.   Of course I'm familiar with what the Nazis did in WWII; that's my damn point. I'm done with this.   "When someone shows you who they are, believe them."


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Would it have been fine if Sunny had said that during the Nuremberg trials "just following orders" was often given as the reason for committing the crimes the defendants were being tried for?


@asp3 When I asked that Sunny not bring Nazi into the conversation any more on another thread, she refused calling me a few things that were not nice.  Poor me.   I am just too sensitive.   I just wouldn’t go there.


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## asp3 (Jun 5, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> No, it would not.
> 
> It used to be that any mention of NAZI on this board was immediately deleted.   Frankly, I'm disappointed that it was allowed to remain.



Do you have any suggestions for an "acceptable" way of getting the point across that "just following orders" is not a valid defense and that it has been used in the past to justify horrible acts?


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## peramangkelder (Jun 5, 2020)

Maybe all of us me included should take a deep breath and remember the Sixth Commandment
I was taught the Ten Commandments in Sunday School as were probably most of us here on the Forum
6. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'
I guess I'm going to get in trouble for that one....so be it I have broad shoulders


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> Maybe all of us me included should take a deep breath and remember the Sixth Commandment
> I was taught the Ten Commandments in Sunday School as were probably most of us here on the Forum
> 6. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'
> I guess I'm going to get in trouble for that one....so be it I have broad shoulders


Not everyone is Christian, so not everyone knows the ten commandments.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 5, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Do you have any suggestions for an "acceptable" way of getting the point across that "just following orders" is not a valid defense and that it has been used in the past to justify horrible acts?


I honestly have no idea what the hell you are talking about.   I never said ANYTHING about "just following orders" or any of the other drivel you are spouting.   I object to bringing NAZIS into this conversation.   The End.


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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

C'est Moi, you seem to think for some reason that calling a Nazi a Nazi is verboten on this forum.  Why, in heaven's name?  Of course the guy was acting like a classic Nazi right out of WW2.  As asp3 said, that "excuse" is right out of the Nuremburg trials.

About "ask your Jewish friends, if you have any..."  that is really funny!  Read my answer to Aneeda, C'est.  I am 100% Jewish myself. (Not religious, but totally Jewish. There is such a thing as secular Judaism.)  I lost relatives in the Holocaust, and I have visited Dachau.  I lived in Germany for a year. And I can recognize the Nazi mentality, no matter which country that evil stuff pops up in. I know more about this tragic subject than you will ever know, sweetie. Better let it go before you embarrass yourself even further.


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## Lethe200 (Jun 5, 2020)

Speaking as a person of color (PoC): I think when the discussion is about excessive use of force, even though it happens more often to PoC, we have to acknowledge its wrongness no matter *who *is the unlucky victim.

We all bleed the same color.

From the Washington Post, excerpted from an article today:
" Thursday (June 4, 2020) marked the second time since last month that a viral video led to an internal affairs investigation of a Buffalo police officer. On May 10, an officer was filmed repeatedly punching a black man in the face during a traffic stop arrest, leading the Erie County District Attorney’s Office to open an investigation into the officer.

Nationwide, video footage has played a key role in exposing police abuses during the protests that ignited over Floyd’s death after a Minneapolis officer was captured pressing his knee into Floyd’s neck.

In Philadelphia on Wednesday, a Temple University student was released from jail on charges of assaulting a police officer during a protest after video emerged showing that a police officer was the one beating him in the head with a baton, while another used his knee to press the student’s face onto the pavement, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported.

A Salt Lake City police officer in riot gear was captured on video last week using his shield to knock down a man who was shuffling slowly with a cane, after ordering him to clear the sidewalk outside of a public library. He fell to the ground face-first. The police chief called the incident “inappropriate” and said it is under investigation, the Salt Lake Tribune reported.

In Fort Lauderdale, Fla., last Sunday, an officer was suspended after shoving a black woman who was kneeling on the concrete behind him with her hands up. That incident inflamed an otherwise largely peaceful protest, as outraged demonstrators threw water bottles, the Miami Herald reported. Police soon responded with tear gas and rubber bullets. One officer ended up striking a woman in the face with a rubber bullet, cracking her skull and leaving her bloodied and bruised about the face, the Herald reported. "


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## C'est Moi (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> C'est Moi, you seem to think for some reason that calling a Nazi a Nazi is verboten on this forum.  Why, in heaven's name?  Of course the guy was acting like a classic Nazi right out of WW2.  As asp3 said, that "excuse" is right out of the Nuremburg trials.
> 
> About "ask your Jewish friends, if you have any..."  that is really funny!  Read my answer to Aneeda, C'est.  I am 100% Jewish myself. (Not religious, but totally Jewish. There is such a thing as secular Judaism.)  I lost relatives in the Holocaust, and I have visited Dachau.  I lived in Germany for a year. And I can recognize the Nazi mentality, no matter which country that evil stuff pops up in. I know more about this tragic subject than you will ever know, sweetie. Better let it go before you embarrass yourself even further.


I am not embarrassed in the least, "sweetie."   (oh, the irony.)   Bye now.


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## win231 (Jun 5, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> There, finally the correct word:  _Some.  _





moviequeen1 said:


> This is the update about the incident that happened in my hometown last night
> Martin Guigno,the 75 yr old activist ,is at local hosptial,Erie County Medical Center.He had serious head injuries but is awake& alert  today according to local news stations
> The 2 cops involved were suspended,entire 57 officers on the Buffalo Emergency Response Team have resigned to support their fellow officers.They haven't quit their police jobs just the team.Erie County exec,Mark Polencarz was disappointed to hear the news


Exactly - "Brother" officers support each other, regardless of any abuse of power or criminal acts.  That's what's wrong with police departments.


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## StarSong (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> StarSong, it does show a willful disregard for public safety, and probably blatent stupidity.The cop was acting like a thug.  But I don't think he intended for the older man to fall, he was just shoving him, like a bully.  And I very much doubt that he wanted to kill him.  The cops seemed horrified, and I heard one of them say, "Call an ambulance!"  No one was kneeling on the old man's throat until he died.
> 
> One is an ugly incident involving a cop who should lose his job.  The other is murder.


I completely agree that this wasn't intentional.  What made it egregious was that none of the police stopped, stooped down to see if the man needed help, nor to instantly call 911.


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## asp3 (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> She misses a lot, fuzzybuddy. Remember when I the cop in the Floyd case said he was only following orders, and I said he reminded me of an old war movie about the Nazis?  It triggered off a whole nonsensical diatribe about how offended she was because some of her relatives were Jewish (though what that had to do with anything beats me) and then boasted about putting me on "ignore" because I said that. Apparently you can't call a Nazi a Nazi, even when he is one.
> 
> So, consider the source.





asp3 said:


> Do you have any suggestions for an "acceptable" way of getting the point across that "just following orders" is not a valid defense and that it has been used in the past to justify horrible acts?





C'est Moi said:


> I honestly have no idea what the hell you are talking about.   I never said ANYTHING about "just following orders" or any of the other drivel you are spouting.   I object to bringing NAZIS into this conversation.   The End.



I'm sorry my messages were not clear.  I understand that you do not want any mention of nazis, however if we look back in history as Sunny was pointing out what I got from that was her saying that the person saying they were just following orders was like people in the trials at Nuremberg where members of the German army were tired for war crimes giving that as their excuse.

What I was trying to get at is did you have any suggestions how someone could bring that comparison up after you said that my Nuremberg example wasn't an acceptable way to make the comparison.

I'm afraid I'm not adept at the multi quote functionality in this forum so I apologize for not supplying all relevant quotes in my response.


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## Butterfly (Jun 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> C'est Moi, you seem to think for some reason that calling a Nazi a Nazi is verboten on this forum.  Why, in heaven's name?  Of course the guy was acting like a classic Nazi right out of WW2.  As asp3 said, that "excuse" is right out of the Nuremburg trials.
> 
> About "ask your Jewish friends, if you have any..."  that is really funny!  Read my answer to Aneeda, C'est.  I am 100% Jewish myself. (Not religious, but totally Jewish. There is such a thing as secular Judaism.)  I lost relatives in the Holocaust, and I have visited Dachau.  I lived in Germany for a year. And I can recognize the Nazi mentality, no matter which country that evil stuff pops up in. I know more about this tragic subject than you will ever know, sweetie. Better let it go before you embarrass yourself even further.



Right, Sunny, it's even called the "Nuremberg defense" in common parlance.

A short explanation of the Nuremberg defense" for those who are interested.  (from theintercept.com, posted in March of 2015)

"During the Nuremberg Trials after World War II, several Nazis, including top German generals Alfred Jodl and Wilhelm Keitel, claimed they were not guilty of the tribunal’s charges because they had been acting at the directive of their superiors.

Ever since, this justification has been popularly known as the “Nuremberg defense,” in which the accused states they were “only following orders.”

The Nuremberg judges rejected the Nuremberg defense, and both Jodl and Keitel were hanged. The United Nations International Law Commission later codified the underlying principle from Nuremberg as “the fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.”

It is my understanding that many of the Nazi judges, tried separately from the original defendants, as well as many defendants tried for what happened in the concentration camps, tried using the same defense and it didn't fly for them, either.

History is history, whether some of us like it not.


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## win231 (Jun 5, 2020)

More information has been coming out today.  Police who arrested protesters have been trying to "teach people a lesson about protesting & demonstrating" by dropping them off in the street in the middle of the night after processing them, not allowing them to use a restroom for several hours, playing loud music & "accidentally" cutting them while cutting off their zip ties.

Yeah.....way to get the respect cops keep asking for.


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## moviequeen1 (Jun 6, 2020)

I find it annoying that some posters have gone off the original topic of this thread.
I had a hard time finding one except mine


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 6, 2020)

moviequeen1 said:


> This is the update about the incident that happened in my hometown last night
> Martin Guigno,the 75 yr old activist ,is at local hosptial,Erie County Medical Center.He had serious head injuries but is awake& alert  today according to local news stations
> The 2 cops involved were suspended,entire 57 officers on the Buffalo Emergency Response Team have resigned to support their fellow officers.They haven't quit their police jobs just the team.Erie County exec,Mark Polencarz was disappointed to hear the news


"They were following orders to clear the park."   But, the issue for me is _how_ they do it.  If we allow brutality, violence will only increase.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> More information has been coming out today.  Police who arrested protesters have been trying to "teach people a lesson about protesting & demonstrating" by dropping them off in the street in the middle of the night after processing them, not allowing them to use a restroom for several hours, playing loud music & "accidentally" cutting them while cutting off their zip ties.
> 
> Yeah.....way to get the respect cops keep asking for.


Dropping people off in the middle of the street after processing them is a common practice.  The police are not a taxi service.  Besides I think you claimed outside agitators were responsible for the riots so why do you care?

Playing music loud, seriously, you are under the impression young people play music soft?  . Define how many hours are several hours before a potty break?  As for accidentally cutting them when taking their zip ties off, hmm, can I see the proof that it was not accidental, poor babies.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

moviequeen1 said:


> I find it annoying that some posters have gone off the original topic of this thread.
> I had a hard time finding one except mine


I am ok with it.  This often happens as one ideal leads to another.


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## Camper6 (Jun 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What?  An officer came up from behind two officers and shoved the elderly man-hard.  The two officers who were involved went to kneel down to help and the officer who push the elderly man down, stopped them from helping.
> 
> No officers were running, all the officers I saw passed him by and left him laying on the ground.  At least it is an assault, if he dies maybe accidental death.  Either way, a wrongful death lawsuit.  But no protests, no riots, and no black man involvement so no racism, so no protestors, so no riots.  Hmm.
> 
> Unless white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that old white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that the black lives matter movement is all about the money?  Makes you wonder?


My take on it.  I was shocked that they just walked by him with his head bleeding.  Now as to riots, etc.  He didn't die.  If there was no death in the Minnesota case, there would never have been the repercussions that took place.  I suppose it takes a death to bring reality to the surface.


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## Sunny (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks for your clearcut understanding of this issue, asp3, Butterfly, and Win. Butterfly, that Nuremberg defense is exactly what I was referring to.

But after shaking my head in disbelief at the statement that "Not everyone is Christian, so not everyone knows the ten commandments," I decided that this is not worth wasting any more time on.  (Aneeda, the Christians are not the people who gave us the Ten Commandments. Good grief.)


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## hollydolly (Jun 6, 2020)

The 2 police officers who knocked the 75 year old peaceful protester down... have been charged 


_Two Buffalo cops have been arrested and charged with second degree assault after they shoved a 75-year-old peace activist to the ground Thursday causing him to crack his head open on the sidewalk. 

The two officers, named as Aaron Torgalski and Robert McCabe, were arraigned in a virtual court hearing Saturday morning over the shocking incident that left peaceful protester Martin Gugino in a 'serious condition' in hospital. 

They face up to seven years in prison if convicted of the class D felony.

The charges were announced as their team of colleagues who resigned in 'disgust' over the officers' treatment gathered outside the city court Saturday morning in protest._

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hoved-peace-activist-75-expected-CHARGED.html


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## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

But remember this is just the 1% of cops who are unfair to others. Plus I’d just like to point out that this is a white elderly gentleman and it did in fact make the news . Just sayin.’

What a horrible way to be treated. Apparently there are people all around the world getting treated like this by the police. Many are getting stung by tasers , have tear gas thrown at them and are being aggressively handled.
That 1% is sure looking large.

To be fair to the police though, they have a tough enough job doing the type of work they do. Add the pandemic to the table , so now they need to do social distancing , probably makes that impossible so they truly are putting their lives at risk. If that isn’t tough enough now there are protestors protesting all across the world and even though protesting is legal, it outs more stress on law enforcement. Note: nothing justifies what happened to this man. 

Hoping the man makes a speedy recover and anyone else who may have been unfairly hurt while peacefully protesting.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> My take on it.  I was shocked that they just walked by him with his head bleeding.  Now as to riots, etc.  He didn't die.  If there was no death in the Minnesota case, there would never have been the repercussions that took place.  I suppose it takes a death to bring reality to the surface.


I disagree even if he hadn’t died, being held down that long and recorded would have been a problem.  How big a problem, we will never know.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> The 2 police officers who knocked the 75 year old peaceful protester down... have been charged
> 
> 
> _Two Buffalo cops have been arrested and charged with second degree assault after they shoved a 75-year-old peace activist to the ground Thursday causing him to crack his head open on the sidewalk.
> ...


I agree, no excuse for what they did to a man who posed no threat at all.


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## win231 (Jun 6, 2020)

I doubt these moronic cops will be charged appropriately, which would be "Crime against an elderly person."
Note the mindset involved when one cop stopped to help the victim & another cop stopped him:_  "Let him bleed; he deserves it."_
You have to appreciate the courage it takes to beat up an elderly man.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 6, 2020)

We all see different things.

The officers that knocked the man down while attempting to clear the area are trained to keep moving forward and are not trained or equipped to provide medical attention.

In the video of the incident, you can see snippets of the trained EMTs in camouflage clothing starting to provide medical attention within seconds.  IMO it's unfair and unfortunate that part of the video isn't obvious.

It's unfortunate that the two officers pushed the man instead of taking him into custody for violating the curfew and resisting commands to clear the area but here we are.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> I doubt these moronic cops will be charged appropriately, which would be "Crime against an elderly person."
> Note the mindset involved when one cop stopped to help the victim & another cop stopped him:_  "Let him bleed; he deserves it."_


Yes, I think that would be a felony


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> We all see different things.
> 
> The officers that knocked the man down while attempting to clear the area are trained to keep moving forward and are not trained or equipped to provide medical attention.
> 
> ...


Yes, that’s what was claimed except clearing on the video one officer tried to help the elderly guy and was pushed onward by the other officer.  It never should have happened!


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## Camper6 (Jun 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I disagree even if he hadn’t died, being held down that long and recorded would have been a problem.  How big a problem, we will never know.


We have seen hundreds of those type of videos when nothing got done. You would have received the usual resisting arrest b.s. and it's an approved method. Death is final.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> We have seen hundreds of those type of videos when nothing got done. You would have received the usual resisting arrest b.s. and it's an approved method. Death is final.


I have not seen hundreds of them, but maybe you have, idk.


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## Camper6 (Jun 6, 2020)

Figure of speech. Plenty satisfy you?


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 6, 2020)

The thing that concerns me the most about this situation and many others is that since cell phones and social media have become so popular we are now seeing a new form of mob rule in this country.

A few seconds of video can be used to whip people into a frenzy that ruins people's lives and cause politicians to enact policies without any thought or investigation it all seems to be based on emotion and listening to the loudest voices.

I do believe that these videos can be valuable tools in evaluating various police interactions and be used to revise training or implement new procedures.  These videos could also have value to an independent citizens review board to help inform the public about existing procedures and suggest future changes.

I'm not suggesting that we hide or restrict these videos but I do believe that we should let the system work to resolve these issues and not allow mob rule to be the norm.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 6, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Figure of speech. Plenty satisfy you?


  I’ve never seen any other video of police pushing down an elderly man or woman.


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## win231 (Jun 6, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> The thing that concerns me the most about this situation and many others is that since cell phones and social media have become so popular we are now seeing a new form of mob rule in this country.
> 
> A few seconds of video can be used to whip people into a frenzy that ruins people's lives and cause politicians to enact policies without any thought or investigation it all seems to be based on emotion and listening to the loudest voices.
> 
> ...


It's black & white when a video shows a cop killing a handcuffed suspect.
It's black & white when a video shows a cop injuring an elderly person for no reason & another cop prevents him from providing first aid.

You can be in a state of denial all you want but it doesn't change reality.  Such cops are criminals.


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## Camper6 (Jun 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I’ve never seen any other video of police pushing down an elderly man or woman.


Never seen 'any' videos or reports of police incidents of roughing up people, tear gas, arrests. or whatever? Your personal experience is not the norm.


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## asp3 (Jun 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> I doubt these moronic cops will be charged appropriately, which would be "Crime against an elderly person."
> Note the mindset involved when one cop stopped to help the victim & another cop stopped him:_  "Let him bleed; he deserves it."_



Unfortunately it's a good bet that the two officers directly involved in injuring the man are not morons.  To me they are far more dangerous than that.  They are unconcerned with the well being of those preventing them from following their orders.  They were unwilling to find some way other than violence to achieve their goals.  I'm sure that neither one of them thought that the man would be injured only frightened or shown who was dominant in the situation.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 7, 2020)

Officers charged with second-degree assault:  (From NBC news)  Two Buffalo officers, who were suspended without pay after a video showed police shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground at a George Floyd protest on Thursday night, were charged Saturday with second-degree assault.

A large crowd of police officers and firefighters stood in front of Buffalo City Court to show support for the two officers as they attended a virtual arraignment on Saturday.

Officers Robert McCabe, 32, and Aaron Torgalski, 39, pleaded not guilty to the charges of second-degree assault, a felony. They are both scheduled to return to court on July 2





Buffalo Police officers Robert McCabe and Aaron Torgalski.

The now-viral video of the incident shows longtime social justice activist Martin Gugino, 75, approaching a large group of officers in tactical gear and saying something. The officers yell for him to move back before one appears to push him. Gugino then stumbles backwards and falls. Seconds later, a pool of blood can be seen near his head. The incident occurred shortly after the city's 8 p.m. curfew, NBC affiliate WGRZ in Buffalo reported.

Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said in a press conference after the arraignment that McCabe and Torgalski "clearly crossed the line."  "I can't turn a blind eye to that," he said.


"If he was violating a curfew, if he was being disorderly, you turn him around, handcuff him, and take him away arrested. It's as simple as that," said Flynn. "You don't take a baton and shove it; along with the officer next to him using his right hand to shove him and knock him down, and crack his head, his skull on the concrete."
Gugino was taken to Erie County Medical Center in Buffalo and was in serious but stable condition.
As of Saturday, Gugino was still recovering at the hospital and is reported to be "alert and oriented."

Nearly 60 members of the Buffalo Police Department's Emergency Response Team, who are specially trained for civil unrest, resigned from that unit Friday after the two officers were suspended over the incident, officials said.








*Video shows Buffalo police shoving man during protest*
JUNE 5, 202000:35

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo at a news conference Saturday voiced support for the mayor and district attorney's response. "There's no tolerance for delay of justice in society anymore," he said.
"We saw the video ... what we saw was horrendous, disgusting, I think illegal," said Cuomo. "I understand this situation is super heated. It is controversial; people are frightened; people are polarized; there is no path that is going to make everybody happy. There is a path to do the right thing, and do the just thing."  "I think what the mayor did and the district attorney did was the right thing," the governor said.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

win231 said:


> It's black & white when a video shows a cop killing a handcuffed suspect.
> It's black & white when a video shows a cop injuring an elderly person for no reason & another cop prevents him from providing first aid.
> 
> You can be in a state of denial all you want but it doesn't change reality.  Such cops are criminals.


I have to agree with @win231


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Never seen 'any' videos or reports of police incidents of roughing up people, tear gas, arrests. or whatever? Your personal experience is not the norm.


Ok, last attempt- the conversation IS about a ELDERLY 75 YEAR OLD MAN, how many men or woman in the 75 year old range have you seen pushed down by the police recorded on video?  Not tear gassed, not arrested, not whatever.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Ok, last attempt- the conversation IS about a ELDERLY 75 YEAR OLD MAN, how many men or woman in the 75 year old range have you seen pushed down by the police?  Not tear gassed, not arrested, not whatever.


Also I am not engaging in a back and forth with you @Camper6.  I am sorry you don’t appear to understand what this conversation is about but I can not explain it any better to you.  Perhaps, You can ask someone else to help.


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## Camper6 (Jun 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Ok, last attempt- the conversation IS about a ELDERLY 75 YEAR OLD MAN, how many men or woman in the 75 year old range have you seen pushed down by the police?  Not tear gassed, not arrested, not whatever.


You asked a question?  I will respond.  O.K. Two. One on this video and once when I was a young boy I saw an old friend of my parents pushed into a police car who was a bit drunk. In those days that was common.  I felt so bad. I knew him.  He had mental problems and later committed suicide.  So you are talking to the voice of experience.

Guess what? One is enough to disgust all kinds of people including members of the police force.

I'm glad you withdrew from the conversation, because I was going to do the same thing.

Thanks for listening.


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## Camper6 (Jun 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Also I am not engaging in a back and forth with you @Camper6.  I am sorry you don’t appear to understand what this conversation is about but I can not explain it any better to you.  Perhaps, You can ask someone else to help.


I understand perfectly.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> You asked a question?  I will respond.  O.K. Two. One on this video and once when I was a young boy I saw an old friend of my parents pushed into a police car who was a bit drunk. In those days that was common.  I felt so bad. I knew him.  He had mental problems and later committed suicide.  So you are talking to the voice of experience.
> 
> Guess what? One is enough to disgust all kinds of people including members of the police force.
> 
> ...


So you saw 2 people, not hundreds and not plenty, 2.  You only saw one on video.  Maybe you should not exaggerate.  IMO, you certainly are not the voice of experience.


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## Camper6 (Jun 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> So you saw 2 people, not hundreds and not plenty, 2.  You only saw one on video.  Maybe you should not exaggerate.  IMO, you certainly are not the voice of experience.


Personally I saw two. But there were hundreds posted on the internet which I read about.  If you are going to ignore, then ignore.
Now that's what I'm going to do and I advise you to do the same.

*A crisis that began with an image of police violence keeps ...*
www.seattletimes.com › nation-world › a-crisis-that-began...


2 days ago - _*Hundreds*_* of episodes*, many recorded on video, have been reported in which _police_ have used violent tactics against protesters reacting to the ...


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Personally I saw two. But there were hundreds posted on the internet which I read about.  If you are going to ignore, then ignore.
> Now that's what I'm going to do and I advise you to do the same.
> 
> *A crisis that began with an image of police violence keeps ...*
> ...


Thanks


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## moviequeen1 (Jun 7, 2020)

The 2 Buffalo cops,Aaron Torganski,Robert Mc Cabe both charged with 2nd degree assault,no bail
They have to appear in front of a judge on July 20th.If convicted they could face up to 7 yrs in prison
There is a picture in today's Bflo News, showing 100 supporters,none are wearing masks or social distancing -idiots!


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 7, 2020)

Enough engagement - Repeating post (see above for full story)

"Officers charged with second-degree assault: (From NBC news) Two Buffalo officers, who were suspended without pay after a video showed police shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground at a George Floyd protest on Thursday night, were charged Saturday with second-degree assault.

A large crowd of police officers and firefighters stood in front of Buffalo City Court to show support for the two officers as they attended a virtual arraignment on Saturday.

Officers Robert McCabe, 32, and Aaron Torgalski, 39, pleaded not guilty to the charges of second-degree assault, a felony. They are both scheduled to return to court on July 2."


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## Rosemarie (Jun 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Aren’t you outraged that there is no outrage?


The focus is on the poor black victims...the white man is just collateral damage.


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## StarSong (Jun 7, 2020)

Apparently the victim was attempting to return a police helmet that he found.  If you rewatch the video you will see him carrying a police helmet.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 7, 2020)

Police Accountability - Solutions to the abusive actions of some officers and ways to get involved in non-violent, stay-at-home protests:

https://transformingthesystem.org/c...-policing-practices/promoting-accountability/


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## doat (Jun 7, 2020)

Personal responsibility? At 70 something years old, you sure as hell don’t bounce like you did in your younger days. Bad choice to even be there.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 7, 2020)

doat said:


> Personal responsibility? At 70 something years old, you sure as hell don’t bounce like you did in your younger days. Bad choice to even be there.


The gentleman victim has been active in seeking social justice for a very long time.  I'm 70 and still have the right to object.  So did he.


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## Camper6 (Jun 7, 2020)

doat said:


> Personal responsibility? At 70 something years old, you sure as hell don’t bounce like you did in your younger days. Bad choice to even be there.


You know when you get to be 70 you don't even realize it.
You wouldn't expect the "finest' come up and slam you down.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> You know when you get to be 70 you don't even realize it.
> You wouldn't expect the "finest' come up and slam you down.View attachment 108673View attachment 108673


Well, the marines advertise a few good men, most assume priests will be good men, the boys scout leaders to name a few.  Bad men join these organization so they can get away with being horrible people.  It’s not limited to the police, sadly enough.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 7, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Apparently the victim was attempting to return a police helmet that he found.  If you rewatch the video you will see him carrying a police helmet.


I did not notice that, and I don’t want to rewatch the video, but now I am even more disgusted.


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## moviequeen1 (Jun 7, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Enough engagement - Repeating post (see above for full story)
> 
> "Officers charged with second-degree assault: (From NBC news) Two Buffalo officers, who were suspended without pay after a video showed police shoving a 75-year-old man to the ground at a George Floyd protest on Thursday night, were charged Saturday with second-degree assault.
> 
> ...


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 8, 2020)

win231 said:


> I think police were quite sure what the protest was about.  But some officers enjoy hurting someone so much, they just can't control themselves & will use any opportunity to do it.  *Brutality is the only way they can assert their manhood*.  They are no better than criminal thugs, except that their police uniform allows it.


I'm thinking the same.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 8, 2020)

asp3 said:


> CNN is covering it a lot so I'm seeing reasonable media coverage.
> 
> This is one recent incident that isn't yet another in a string of incidents with similar situations.  I think the difference between the level of response to this and the level or response to the George Floyd and now Manuel Ellis is there is not perceived behavior towards many elderly people as opposed to perceived behavior towards many black people.
> 
> ...


Sickening, if such be the case.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 8, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What?  *An officer came up from behind two officers and shoved the elderly man-hard.  The two officers who were involved went to kneel down to help and the officer who push the elderly man down, stopped them from helping.*
> 
> No officers were running, all the officers I saw passed him by and left him laying on the ground.  At least it is an assault, if he dies maybe accidental death.  Either way, a wrongful death lawsuit.  But no protests, no riots, and no black man involvement so no racism, so no protestors, so no riots.  Hmm.
> 
> Unless white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that old white lives don’t matter.  Or is it just that the black lives matter movement is all about the money?  Makes you wonder?


My husband said had he been part of the cop assembly and been stopped by anyone for trying to help the 75 year old man, he would have wiped the sidewalk with whoever attempted to stop him.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 8, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I completely agree that this wasn't intentional.  What made it egregious was that none of the police stopped, stooped down to see if the man needed help, nor to instantly call 911.


Well that's where you have it all wrong, because they weren't police, because if they were, the individual that shoved the 75 year old like he did would have been reined in right then and there by fellow officers, that is if they were real police.

I wouldn't stand for that and put up with that from anyone, and I'm a woman.


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