# Average Intelligence



## rkunsaw (Mar 2, 2013)

I can tell from the posts that everyone on this forum is way above average when it comes to intelligence.

It comes to mind though, that to get an average, for everyone of us who is above average there has to someone who is below average in the intelligence category.

Where are they? I have suspected many but I have never known anyone who admitted to being below average.

They can't all work for the government can they?


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## R. Zimm (Mar 2, 2013)

Hey, I work for the government (local anyway) and knew I was intelligent before earning a BA in Music Theory, learning/working computers, and earning a MA in Information Science.

There is intelligence then there is education. I do work with some folks who have education equal to mine but cannot figure out the most simple mechanical tasks. I personally think the two big indicators of intelligence are spacial reasoning (ie how things fit/work in assemblies) and the ability to "conceptualize" ideas.

However, you do not really need either of those skills to earn even a Doctorate. You just have to be abel to read / write decently and find / link data. Those are skills but they do not (IMHO) require above average intelligence.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 2, 2013)

Lighten up RZ. I didn't mean to offend anyone. 

Well, I guess my post might be offensive to those below average but they wouldn't know they were being offended


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## FishWisher (Mar 2, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> Well, I guess my post might be offensive to those below average but they wouldn't know they were being offended



Hang on now! I'm still thinking about it...


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## Ozarkgal (Mar 2, 2013)

Isn't that what IQ tests are for?

Having said that, there is a lot of difference between book learnin' and common sense, which I think is the true intelligence.  My bet is on the person with good common sense that maybe did not have an opportunity for higher formal education, than a highly educated bookworm, that doesn't have the common sense to step aside to let a herd of stampeding elephants pass.

They don't have to admit to being below average intelligence.  People of average intelligence only need be around them for a few minutes to figure it out.  They can't hide.


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## TWHRider (Mar 2, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> Isn't that what IQ tests are for?
> 
> than a highly educated bookworm, that doesn't have the common sense to step aside to let a herd of stampeding elephants pass.



I once worked for a Finite Element Engineer who was like that.    He walked to work every day - rain or shine - sleeting snow or drifts up to the windows of his house - he walked to work on precisely the same path every day.

Every day that is, until the city decided to tear up the sidewalks and front yards in his area of town to put new water lines in.  The first day they did that, "The Harv" was late for work.  Before he finally showed up spittin' and sputterin',  we all thought he got hit by a car on his way home from work the night before, as "The Harv" never missed work unless he gave a two-week advance notice.

Once those of us in the Mechanical Engineering Dept heard WHY "The Harv" was late work, all we could do was stand, open-mouthed without a word to be said amongst us.

He was late becausssss the City dug up his front yard & sidewalk, therefore his path to work.  He actually called the City Dept to say "how dare you, how do you expect me to get to my job?!"   Their kind reply (surely given by someone equally as stunned as we were) was:

"Mr. XXXXX" you DO have a back door to your house?"  "Of COURSE, I do!"  "Then we suggest you go out the back door, down that sidewalk, take the back side of your block to the traffic light by Dunkin' Donuts and surely you can find your way from there."

I promise I'm not making that up --- you just can't make this kind of stuff up.  He was a mental giant as long as he was operating within his engineering field but Lord Help, if he had to do anything that was out of the norm of his daily routine.  How he ever married, much less produced a child, was beyond me-----

Getting back on track a little -- I believe anyone who did not have the opportunity for any sort of education (be that graduating high school or going on to college), can increase their knowlege if they have any sort of common sense about them.  All they have to do is pay attention to their surroundings and hopefully have the opportunity to get out of same, if it's unhealthy.

I suspect the truth to rkunsaw's statement is that none of us were born with what I call a two-digit IQ, we were all born with excellent faculties and, as the years have passed, seized on whatever moments we could to enhance those faculties.  Because, we all seem to be prideful folks; not in an arrogant way but in a hard-working, honest and pretty ethical way, for the most part

I graduated high school with honors but with no intent of going on to college - GM was beckoning with that big fat paycheck - lollol.  I spent 8 years, standing on my feet, making wiring harnesses for General Motors.  There were "high school drop outs to the left of me, highly degreed people to the right of me".  We were all plugging wires because it paid the most money in our Valley.

Those of us without benefit of college, had a wide open opportunity to learn from our degreed co-workers; in turn, they had the opportunity to learn some valuable "street stuff" from us that they didn't get around to while earning all those Sheepskins. 

Life in general is a learning process and we all have the opportunity to gain brain power as we go down our chosen paths.  This is a diverse and enjoyable group; we might not be learning all that much to get us thru life anymore but isn't interesting to see where our paths have taken each of us, as we all slide down what I call the wrong side of the Roller Coaster ride

I'm not that good at explaining things, so mehbee OG or Seabreeze might want to step in and translate in case anyone says "what in THEE H*LL did that woman just say?"

nthego:


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2013)

What in thee h*ll did TWH just say? layful:

There's intelligence, there's common sense, there's experience and there's wisdom - each has a little edge on the others, yet all are capable of providing us with what we need. 

There has been a long-running battle against some forms of IQ tests, claiming that they are racially and culturally biased. Of course they say the same things about television, politics, sports and hiring practices at McDonald's, so I take that as a given. But I think it IS true that your run-of-the-mill Stanford-Binet test (the usual "IQ test" given) tests more for standard knowledge _retention_ than actual intelligence. It merely gives a relative measurement of how well you've been assimilated into The System and can spew out the "right" answers.

But ask a high-IQ-scoring individual a trick question, one that isn't taught in school, such as "If God is omnipotent, could He create something more powerful than Himself?" or the Zen riddle "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" - they would short-circuit trying to come up with the answer.

I've known a few Rainman-type folks who could spout off statistics about their field and hold court discussing their personal interests and hobbies for hours on end, but couldn't tie their own shoelaces. These were high-IQ, multiple-degreed people. 

Myself, I have several advanced degrees, have tested in the 99th percentile on multiple intelligence-assessment tests, ended up with an "Alpha 7 / 2%" score on a leadership test, routinely drove pshrinks crazy when I "beat" their tests, yet I'm still an opinionated, grumpy, pessimistic weirdo.

... thank Buddha.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 2, 2013)

TWHRider said:


> I'm not that good at explaining things, so mehbee OG or Seabreeze might want to step in and translate in case anyone says "what in THEE H*LL did that woman just say?"



:iagree:...yeah, what she said!  LOL! 

Seriously TWH, you're message needed no special translation, and least not for someone as smart as I am.  layful:  I am going to say that I am not above average in intelligence, nor below average in intelligence...I am average in intelligence and not afraid to say so. :star:

I also didn't go to college, and started working right after high school, actually part time while I was still in school.  Over the years I also worked side by side with high school drop outs and college graduates.  Some people showed strength and knowledge in some areas, and confusion and weakness in others...regardless of their schooling.

On payday, we all received the same wage.  Although I was not the most educated person there, there was something like my common sense and street smarts that made the management ask me to become a lead person, and made the workers vote me in as the Union Steward.  Actually was both at the same time, which sounds odd, but says something about people's perception of my intelligence and trust in me.  

Aside from examples like that, coworkers, both male and female, would come to me for advice on decisions they needed to make in their personal lives.  Some of these were the college schooled supervisors even.  Somehow, although I didn't go far through the school system, I never really felt less intelligent than the next Joe...like Rider said, life experiences, street smarts and common sense go a long way...and people can't learn those important life lessons in a classroom.



> A new teacher was trying to make use of her psychology courses.
> She started her class by saying, "Everyone who thinks they're stupid, stand up!"
> After a few seconds, Little Johnny stood up.
> The teacher said, "Do you think you're stupid, Little Johnny?"
> "No, ma'am, but I hate to see you standing there all by yourself!"


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## R. Zimm (Mar 3, 2013)

No offense was taken or intended, my friend. I was just talking about my perceptions on the OP (original post). Intelligence is a hard thing to measure and I bet we all would measure it differently.

Part of the issue is our basic personalities. It's my understanding that most people clearly fall into one of three patterns. Some people like to talk about people, some like to talk about events and some like to talk about ideas. Can you can guess which one I fit into?!


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## rkunsaw (Mar 5, 2013)

Some of you folks take things too seriously.

I was making a lighthearted post about people not admitting to being below average, 

Fishwisher got it or maybe he's still thinking about it. LOL


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## R. Zimm (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, maybe we read more into your post because we "think" we are so intelligent! I bet that most of the people who are average and below think they are above average. For example, there is a woman who comes to our library here and there and always is talking about how stupid people are in the area yet she (IMO) does not "get" half of what goes on around her and the way she interacts with other people indicates she does not really understand common topics of conversation.

I don't know since so many folks around here are either over or under medicated so what I and others may judge as low intelligence may be social interaction and focus issues relating to other mental processes.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm not average - I'm just median. 

RZ, about your library lady ... some of the greatest minds of all time were known to be complete flops when it came to current events and "chit-chat". Like savants they were geniuses in a narrow category of topics but failures at tying their shoes, even when they were Velcro.

When I find time to spew my venom it's usually toward the "stupid" people of the world, even as I realize that in some way they HAVE to have SOME level of intelligence, otherwise they wouldn't even be alive. 

To me, the ultimate stupidity is when you forget to breathe, forget to bathe or forget to stay single.


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## FishWisher (Mar 6, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> To me, the ultimate stupidity is when you forget to breathe, forget to bathe or forget to stay single.



Too bad you never met the right one, SifuPhil. I swung three times and missed, but somehow I was allowed a fourth - and hit a homer!

While this story is more about education than intelligence, there's no doubt in my mind of the "dumbing down" we see in the country as a whole. When I was a local police senior volunteer I drove the old '47 Chevy police car in a parade for the local Police Explorers group. The Explorer who rode with me, a high school kid about 16, attended our local high school. I got to talking to him about those heros who built the old car, and how they went through the depression, fought the war and were the greatest generation. I asked him if he knew about WWII. His reply: "That was a war with Mexico, wasn't it?"

What the hell do they teach nowadays in history class?!


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2013)

FishWisher said:


> Too bad you never met the right one, SifuPhil. I swung three times and missed, but somehow I was allowed a fourth - and hit a homer!



Talk about optimism! 

Actually, I WAS married - for 15 years. Have two wonderful sons but, alas, divorce reared its ugly head.



> While this story is more about education than intelligence, there's no doubt in my mind of the "dumbing down" we see in the country as a whole. When I was a local police senior volunteer I drove the old '47 Chevy police car in a parade for the local Police Explorers group. The Explorer who rode with me, a high school kid about 16, attended our local high school. I got to talking to him about those heros who built the old car, and how they went through the depression, fought the war and were the greatest generation. I asked him if he knew about WWII. His reply: "That was a war with Mexico, wasn't it?"
> 
> What the hell do they teach nowadays in history class?!



Wow.

Well, it's more important these days that everyone be on the same level, even if that level is about 100 feet below sea level. As long as they feel good about themselves, just say no to drugs and are into diversity of all shapes and sizes then we can consider them "educated".


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## Ozarkgal (Mar 6, 2013)

FishWisher said:


> What the hell do they teach nowadays in history class?!



 For sure not what you and I were taught. History is being re-written to fit certain political agenda and special interest groups. they are not into teaching history as it actually occurred, as documented by people that were there. Hell, some are even saying the holocaust never happened. Bet the people that were victims would disagree, had they not been been tortured to death, that is.

Political educators are re-writing history to fit their own political agenda and special interests.   This, I believe gets started in liberal colleges and funneled down to primary education schools.  

Young people are also getting a lot of mis-information from the "artistic liberties" that Hollywood takes with the truth in making films loosely based on history. 

Education these days (or more appropriately, the lack of it) is a whole other discussion.

Our educations system is a great part of the reason so many people seem to lack "average intelligence"  these days.  Having their faces stuck in cell phones, facebook and computer games is equally to blame.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> For sure not what you and I were taught. History is being re-written to fit certain political agenda and special interest groups. they are not into teaching history as it actually occurred, as documented by people that were there. Hell, some are even saying the holocaust never happened. Bet the people that were victims would disagree, had they not been been tortured to death, that is.



I truly don't know of any public schools that are teaching the "Holocaust Denier" viewpoint in this country - in fact, quite the opposite.

When I went to school in the '60's and '70's we were told that "six million Jews" lost their lives in the camps. OK. Later research showed that the number was put at 4 million, and the replacement of the sign at the Auschwitz Memorial in 1990 with one that said "1.5 million" was played down by the media.

Yet when my sons both went to school the "six million" number was still being used, long after acknowledgement of the new figure.



> Political educators are re-writing history to fit their own political agenda and special interests.   This, I believe gets started in liberal colleges and funneled down to primary education schools.
> 
> Young people are also getting a lot of mis-information from the "artistic liberties" that Hollywood takes with the truth in making films loosely based on history.



Totally agree. Keep in mind the old saying that "History is written by the victors" or, in this case, the people with money and access to media.



> Education these days (or more appropriately, the lack of it) is a whole other discussion.
> 
> Our educations system is a great part of the reason so many people seem to lack "average intelligence"  these days.  Having their faces stuck in cell phones, facebook and computer games is equally to blame.



Although I think they tend to teach different abilities, Facebook and gaming are certainly different than the traditional course-load of Latin and logic. In a sense, this is a Luddite view of progress - that anything done in the last 30 years or so is a waste and morally bankrupt. I refuse to subscribe to that theory; I think that there is value in everything. We just can't compare the NEW values with the OLD.

A typical failing of the senior community, I might add. Very few of us retain that youthful open-mindedness into our advanced years, especially in a topic as controversial as this. 

Another point to consider, as I believe was brought up in this thread before - there IS a difference between "education" and "intelligence". One is acquired; the other is innate. Education has always been and always will be a variable; intelligence is a given at birth, and rarely changes over the course of a lifetime.


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## Ozarkgal (Mar 6, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> "I truly don't know of any public schools that are teaching the "Holocaust Denier" viewpoint in this country - in fact, quite the opposite."



Didn't mean to imply that they are actually teaching this in schools (yet).  Just an example of certain groups trying to re-write history according to their own agenda.  I should have stated this better. 








> A We just can't compare the NEW values with the OLD.



Oh yes, we can and should compare. There is a difference between progress and morals.




> Although I think they tend to teach different abilities, Facebook and gaming are certainly different than the traditional course-load of Latin and logic. In a sense, this is a Luddite view of progress - that anything done in the last 30 years or so is a waste and morally bankrupt. I refuse to subscribe to that theory; I think that there is value in everything. We just can't compare the NEW values with the OLD.
> Not everything old is good and not everything new is bad...



 I certainly do not subscribe to the "Luddite view of progress"...I am extremely happy with progress that has been made in the technical, medical and consumer fields...Conversely, I am also extremely unhappy with the cheapening of morals, and morally bankrupt politicians. All old is not good and all new is not bad. We must learn from and remember history.



> A typical failing of the senior community, I might add. Very few of us retain that youthful open-mindedness into our advanced years, especially in a topic as controversial as this.



Perhaps it's because maturity, wisdom and experience trumps open mindedness in a lot of situations.

...and why do I feel like this thread is going the same way as "Grumpy"?nthego:


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## R. Zimm (Mar 6, 2013)

Take a look at this fellow's insight on our education system. Very interesting and it makes a lot of sense. Basically the British Empire developed modern education to create "worker bees" for their far flung bureaucracy. Therefore each graduate had to be able to read, write legibly and do math in their head. Not that this is intelligence as we were discussing but I think it is related.

http://www.ted.com/pages/prizewinner_sugata_mitra


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## SifuPhil (Mar 6, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> Didn't mean to imply that they are actually teaching this in schools (yet).  Just an example of certain groups trying to re-write history according to their own agenda.  I should have stated this better.



Ah, OK. I agree that special interest groups are always trying to shove their views into the mix. 



> Oh yes, we can and should compare. There is a difference between progress and morals.



The "M" word! 

Teaching morality can be SUCH a sticky wicket ... since morals are derived from society it depends upon which society you inhabit and to what level you subscribe to their morals and ethics. Morality is also often derived from religion, or at least a religion's version of morality is accepted as the norm. Absent that religion you are likely to have a slightly different set of morals and ethics. 

In fact, I believe that progress has often been needlessly stifled by morality, as in the witch hunts of England and Massachusetts, the banning of scientific knowledge such as that of Galileo and Newton and more recently the topic of cloning and stem-cell research. The Catholic church continues to advocate the non-usage of birth control during a population explosion, all because of their self-created moral laws (they'll claim that those laws are Biblically-derived, but let's face it - the Bible was written by men).




> I certainly do not subscribe to the "Luddite view of progress"...I am extremely happy with progress that has been made in the technical, medical and consumer fields...Conversely, I am also extremely unhappy with the cheapening of morals, and morally bankrupt politicians. All old is not good and all new is not bad. We must learn from and remember history.



But who's VERSION of history? Therein lies the rub ... do we swallow hook, line and sinker the generally-presented, popular version, or take pains to discover the truth, no matter how distasteful and non-romantic? We are told that the pioneers that settled the Wild West were a brave, adventurous and virtuous lot who tamed the savages on the frontier. Far less popular is the notion that they were a bunch of materialistically-driven malcontents who took what they wanted by force while despoiling the environment and trampling the lifestyles - and lives - of anyone slightly different than themselves.



> Perhaps it's because maturity, wisdom and experience trumps open mindedness in a lot of situations.



So close-mindedness can be a good thing? Hmmm ... I'll have to think about that one ... although I have the feeling you may be right.



> ...and why do I feel like this thread is going the same way as "Grumpy"?nthego:



What? we're just talkin' here ...


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## rkunsaw (Mar 7, 2013)

SifuPhil and Ozarkgal

You two hush.....you're bringing down the average!


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## SifuPhil (Mar 7, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> SifuPhil and Ozarkgal
> 
> You two hush.....you're bringing down the average!



Are you sure you don't mean the _median_? 

If five of our members (no names given nor implied) have the following IQ scores:



112
125
72
114
12

The _average_ IQ of that group would be 87, but the _median_ would be 112. That's a difference of 25 points, or the difference between liking _Masterpiece Theater_ and _Jerry Springer_. layful:

No need to thank me, Citizen - it's all in a day's work for me.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 7, 2013)

layful: you put 12 as one of the examples....Now that's gettin' personal.


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## Ozarkgal (Mar 7, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> SifuPhil and Ozarkgal
> 
> You two hush.....you're bringing down the average!





Wow...spanked again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




                     Stepping off      :soap2:     BOX....:wave:


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## SifuPhil (Mar 7, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> layful: you put 12 as one of the examples....Now that's gettin' personal.



Well, I didn't want anyone to feel bad so I stuck my own score in there ...



Ozarkgal said:


> Wow...spanked again...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't seen so much spanking since I dropped detergent into the goldfish pond in kindergarten. 

Good thing we're not discussing this in a public place, like a mall - we'd be surrounded by Children and Youth agents!


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## R. Zimm (Mar 8, 2013)

112
125
72
114
12

Now you have me pondering this list. Am I in it? If not where do I fit? Have any of you had your IQ rated? My wife claims she had it rated as a child and it was like 120 (if memory serves me) and we both seem to be equally "smart" though in different ways. Both our daughters are intelectual in a wide range of areas (whew, I did not kill as many brain cells as first thought!) and their husbands are equal to them, again in different ways.

I guess my tangent point is that heredity does play the biggest part on average in how intelligent one is. There are also "fliers" on each side of the bell curve however from genetic mutations.

All across human intelligence the average of all averages is well, average (100). BTW, if that makes no sense then one of us is below average.


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## pchinvegas (Mar 8, 2013)

Yall are scaring me now, I ain't no window licker ! I think there needs to be a nice mix of intelligence and common sense.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 8, 2013)

R. Zimm said:


> Now you have me pondering this list. Am I in it?



Yes and no.



> If not where do I fit?



In whatever space is small enough (or large enough) to contain you.



> Have any of you had your IQ rated?



Yes.

Am I being helpful yet? 



> My wife claims she had it rated as a child and it was like 120 (if memory serves me) and we both seem to be equally "smart" though in different ways. Both our daughters are intelectual in a wide range of areas (whew, I did not kill as many brain cells as first thought!) and their husbands are equal to them, again in different ways.



The standard IQ test, at least as it was presented "back in the day", later became quite controversial because it was claimed that it was sexist, racist, prejudiced and all sorts of other no-no's. That means that if I took my early IQ scores as gospel they would only have been valid among the group that I tested with, at that time and place. As soon as I left the testing room those results would have been at least partially invalid.

Supposedly the tests have been altered to eliminate such sticking points, but the standard IQ test is hardly worth even considering unless you undergo a battery of other tests to ascertain results.

People will say that your IQ doesn't change much throughout your life, but again that depends upon what is considered as fair testing. If I were to take a modern-day test (which I have) the results should be in the same ball-park as my earlier test - and they were. So if I've taken the new and improved test and have the same score, what was so wrong about the earlier tests?

Methinks something art rotten in the state of educational-testing Denmark.



> I guess my tangent point is that heredity does play the biggest part on average in how intelligent one is. There are also "fliers" on each side of the bell curve however from genetic mutations.



I agree that it's hereditary, even though there is still much debate on this point. I was always hoping for my boys that I was just a carrier, like Typhoid Mary - I didn't _exhibit_ any signs of intelligence but could still pass it _on_ to them. Luckily this is how it turned out.



> All across human intelligence the average of all averages is well, average (100). BTW, if that makes no sense then one of us is below average.



Standard deviation for modern IQ tests is I believe 15, the operating theory being that 95% of the population will fall within two standard deviations of 100, i.e. 70-130. We have to remember that with all the variations of IQ testing methodology we are still being compared mainly to _each other_.

... which fact rankles with someone like me, who is without peer.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 8, 2013)

pchinvegas said:


> Yall are scaring me now, I ain't no window licker ! I think there needs to be a nice mix of intelligence and common sense.



But what is "common sense" besides being an _application_ of intelligence?

Folk wisdom likes to say that some folk don't have "the common sense God gave 'em". I don't think this is right; just watch a newborn baby. That little bundle of living, breathing liverwurst isn't exactly making a grand showing of "common sense". Even when that liverwurst begins to age - one, two, even three years - you'll see a decided LACK of anything remotely resembling sense, whether common or uncommon. 

If common sense were God-given, then Brian Kunin wouldn't have stuck that dime up his nose in second grade and as a result be taken to the emergency room.

No, I think that common sense is just what you _do_ with the intelligence that you _do_ have. A less-intelligent person has less to work with so to speak, so it will appear that they lack a certain degree of common sense. That's to be expected, which is why a civilized society doesn't beat the mentally deficient. But when an intelligent person walks in front of a bus while texting on their "smart" phone, there is a prime example of NOT applying their intelligence. 

The old saying, "*If you're so smart how come you ain't rich?*", is appropriate in many circumstances as well, my own included. I should hold the legal rights to that phrase, because I would be a rich man from the royalties generated every time someone asks me that.


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