# Syrian Refugee Crisis



## QuickSilver (Sep 5, 2015)

How many should the USA and Canada take in?  Or should we NOT?   

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/syrian-refugee-crisis-why-has-it-become-so-bad

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/syria-war-assad-starvation-hunger


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## Warrigal (Sep 5, 2015)

Our PM is refusing to increase the number of refugees that Australia will accept. He says he has already increased the intake by 4,400 but fails to mention that last year he reduced the number from 20,000 to 13,750, which means we are still taking less this year overall.

This is a disgraceful effort for a country as wealthy as Australia that also has a history of accepting and absorbing migrants and refugees from all parts of the globe.
I cannot see any reason why we couldn't absorb 50,000 refugees per annum for the next 10 years.

The image of that poor drowned little boy has touched many hearts over here, including those of some members of the government.
Unfortunately, the leadership is not for turning.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 5, 2015)

My heart's been changed a lot over the last year, and I feel people need to be helping the less fortunate.  I think for me, I "fear" too much, I'm afraid if I "give" I won't have enough for myself.  I think that is bs now, although there are times I fear again.  *I feel helping folks only makes us stronger, not weaker*.  Not that we would want to help for purely selfish reasons.  Maybe if we all "try" to put ourselves in other's shoes we could open our doors with less fear.


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## Bee (Sep 5, 2015)

One way of helping the refugees in Calais............

[h=2]The business manager, Belfast[/h]Richard Snape describes himself as “a capitalist, really” and has “never, ever, ever” done anything like this before, but the photograph of Aylan Kurdi lying on a Turkish beach was “the light switch”, he says. “Before, I was aware it was going on, obviously, but that was the switch. This is happening on our doorstep. This is humanity.”
The manager of a wooden floor company in Belfast, he has access to a van and storage space in the city, so on Thursday evening he put a note on his Facebook page asking people to drop off items that he could drive to the camps in Calais early next week. He then booked a ferry. By Friday morning, two other businesses had offered to drive behind him in convoy, one promising to fill a 7.5-tonne lorry.
“I’m going to take my van to Calais on Monday, drop a full load of tents, batteries, stuff like that, then do a few runs to a cash-and-carry dependent on what else they need, and then I’m going to come back again.

“I’m not looking to save the world by any stretch. But I think I can make a difference to 20 or 30 people in dire need, and I’m happy with that.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-aid-for-calais-refugees-into-their-own-hands


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## Bee (Sep 5, 2015)

This a poster to organise local donations.......


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## Bee (Sep 5, 2015)

Cameron has announced that the U.K. will take in X number of Syrians, also some local councils has offered refuge.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-fleeing-conflict-yvette-cooper-10487954.html


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## QuickSilver (Sep 5, 2015)

I'm Hoping the USA takes some..   If we don't... so much for the  "*Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, *


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## Bee (Sep 5, 2015)

QS to get back to your original question.....How many should the USA and Canada take in? Or should we NOT? ........I am sorry I am not in the position to answer that question with living in the U.K., what I can say though is, I am glad that there is help from the U.K. in whichever form it takes.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 5, 2015)

I'm thinking we can easily take 20,000 or more..  Maybe 50,000


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## Debby (Sep 5, 2015)

nwlady said:


> My heart's been changed a lot over the last year, and I feel people need to be helping the less fortunate.  I think for me, I "fear" too much, I'm afraid if I "give" I won't have enough for myself.  I think that is bs now, although there are times I fear again.  *I feel helping folks only makes us stronger, not weaker*.  Not that we would want to help for purely selfish reasons.  Maybe if we all "try" to put ourselves in other's shoes we could open our doors with less fear.




Great thoughts Denise.  All we need to do is open up our imaginations to the 'what if's'.  What if it was me living in a country where my government was fighting against someone and I was the collateral damage.  What if it was me, loading up my two little girls onto an inflatable boat and heading out to sea to try to save their lives.  What if it was me, sitting there with my dying child cradled in my arms while the bombs fell around me.....what if, what if, what if!  Would I not be hoping against hope that someone, somewhere would care enough to at least try to help!


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## Denise1952 (Sep 5, 2015)

Bee said:


> One way of helping the refugees in Calais............
> 
> *The business manager, Belfast*
> 
> ...



This is really the ticket, doing what we can individually, and it doesn't have to be front-page news, giving millions.  This guy is my kind of person, and there are so many folks doing the right thing.  Thank you so much for the uplifting article.  It encourages me to get off my butt, and do what I can, maybe just in the house I live in, maybe just down the street but there is always something we can do denise


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## Denise1952 (Sep 5, 2015)

Bee said:


> QS to get back to your original question.....How many should the USA and Canada take in? Or should we NOT? ........I am sorry I am not in the position to answer that question with living in the U.K., what I can say though is, I am glad that there is help from the U.K. in whichever form it takes.


 I wandered off the OP, apologies.

Numbers, I haven't a clue.  I do think we need to be taking in though, for sure


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## Shalimar (Sep 5, 2015)

Our Prime Minister is under extreme pressure to step up and take in a considerable number of refugees. Being as we go to the poll for a federal election month, hopefully he will stop dragging his feet. I would like us to take at least five thousand.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 5, 2015)

Debby said:


> Great thoughts Denise.  All we need to do is open up our imaginations to the 'what if's'.  What if it was me living in a country where my government was fighting against someone and I was the collateral damage.  What if it was me, loading up my two little girls onto an inflatable boat and heading out to sea to try to save their lives.  What if it was me, sitting there with my dying child cradled in my arms while the bombs fell around me.....what if, what if, what if!  Would I not be hoping against hope that someone, somewhere would care enough to at least try to help!



I think both countries have space to spare, it's managing it so folks aren't just put somewhere without a way to survive, and start their lives over in a new place.


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## Shalimar (Sep 5, 2015)

That should have read go to the polls for a federal election next month. No, sadly I am unable to edit posts effectively with this ancient machine. Lol.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 5, 2015)

The US and Canada should take in as many as they can legally, using existing laws and processes in place. Increase the budget for immigration enforcement but any country has got to be careful about unregulated unbridled immigration. I see why many European countries are leery of the large numbers that are coming in at once. This is where organizations like the UN should be screaming. The problems or motivations for these mass migration need to be addressed. By going elsewhere the problem is just being shifted or left unaddressed.


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## Debby (Sep 5, 2015)

I don't know how many the US has taken in so far, but in Canada, we've taken in 2400 apparently over the course of a year while the government is now agreeing (in principal) to allowing a total of 20,000.

But one of our elected officials reminded us that when the Vietnamese boat people were trying to get to Canada by sea and dying in the process, we finally got off our buttes and took in 60,000 and we did it by sending immigration staff directly to them and facilitating their move instead of making it such a beurocratic nightmare that it took longer than those people had.  We did it then, why can't we do it now?  Germany has so far taken in 800,000!  Compared to our 2400?  Shameful and especially as Germany is a much smaller country than Canada!

It also seems to me, and maybe I'm being immensely naive, when we save these peoples lives, for the most part we have just made the first step towards adding another grateful and loyal citizen to our ranks.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 5, 2015)

ditto on all you said, but especially your last sentence Debby.  I couldn't agree more.  God knows we could use more folks that would be grateful (I hope) and loyal to our countries.  Instead of fighting against what may be a true blessing to our country, accept them with open arms.  I don't know, I just see things changing for the worst in the world, including the US, maybe this is something that might help us more than it helps the refugees/immigrants.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm Hoping the USA takes some..   If we don't... so much for the  "*Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, *



Me too QS, have no idea about how many, but as many as we can.


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## Warrigal (Sep 6, 2015)

Debby said:


> I don't know how many the US has taken in so far, but in Canada, we've taken in 2400 apparently over the course of a year while the government is now agreeing (in principal) to allowing a total of 20,000.
> 
> But one of our elected officials reminded us that when the Vietnamese boat people were trying to get to Canada by sea and dying in the process, we finally got off our buttes and took in 60,000 and we did it by sending immigration staff directly to them and facilitating their move instead of making it such a beurocratic nightmare that it took longer than those people had.  We did it then, why can't we do it now?  Germany has so far taken in 800,000!  Compared to our 2400?  Shameful and especially as Germany is a much smaller country than Canada!
> 
> It also seems to me, and maybe I'm being immensely naive, when we save these peoples lives, for the most part we have just made the first step towards adding another grateful and loyal citizen to our ranks.



My thoughts too. We also absorbed thousands of Chinese students overnight after Tiananmen Square by simply declaring that they could have permanent visas. Where there is a will there is a way but our current government has been playing on people's xenophobia and while the people may be feeling compassionate, the leadership is lacking. The money we are spending pushing people away from our shores could be better spent sending officers to the camps to process people and facilitate their transfer to Australia.

I agree that the best migrants are desperate people in need of  refuge and acceptance.


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## Warrigal (Sep 6, 2015)

I'm not sure how to assess this report but it does seem to be a case of leading by example.

http://mic.com/articles/89809/the-w...ened-his-house-to-100-syrian-refugee-children

Here is another one, this time from Finland

http://www.channel4.com/news/finnish-pm-refugees-can-stay-at-my-home


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## Don M. (Sep 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm Hoping the USA takes some..   If we don't... so much for the  "*Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, *



It seems to me that the U.S. has its hands full just trying to absorb and take care of the constant flow of "immigrants" flowing across our Southern border from South and Central American nations.  This flood of Middle Eastern immigrants trying to enter Europe, is going to create some massive problems....both financial and social...for the European nations, in coming years.  There are thousands of Africans flooding into Morocco trying to find their way into Spain.  

The U.K, is already feeling some stress from the Muslim influence in recent years....and there are Muslim factions whose primary goal is a complete takeover of the British government.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31834549

Germany and Austria, with their open invitation to these Syrian refugees, is going to find that decision coming back to haunt them.   

While it is certainly a tragedy to see all these people being displaced...it is just a portent of things to come.  This is just the beginning of a massive movement of poor people fleeing corrupt and failed nations, and heading for the more stable countries.  As a result, the nations taking these people in will be increasingly unable to support them, and their existing populations will begin to suffer from the decrease in their traditional support programs.  As the populations of these disadvantaged people continue to expand substantially, it is going to result in a decrease in the quality of life for everyone.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 6, 2015)

Are you saying the USA cannot do anything... we are too poor... and the undocumented workers are  causing us to NOT be able to help with the Syrian refugees?    Is that what you are saying???


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## Bee (Sep 6, 2015)

Don M. said:


> It seems to me that the U.S. has its hands full just trying to absorb and take care of the constant flow of "immigrants" flowing across our Southern border from South and Central American nations.  This flood of Middle Eastern immigrants trying to enter Europe, is going to create some massive problems....both financial and social...for the European nations, in coming years.  There are thousands of Africans flooding into Morocco trying to find their way into Spain.
> 
> The U.K, is already feeling some stress from the Muslim influence in recent years....and there are Muslim factions whose primary goal is a complete takeover of the British government.
> 
> ...



The following is the sentence that stood out for me from your link..........._The umbrella body, the Muslim Council of Britain, has not signed the letter_.............and that is good enough for me if The Muslim Council of Britain hasn't signed that letter, that tells me they do not agree with it and I would rather take  notice of them than those that did sign that letter especially Yvonne Ridley and the political party she used to belong to.


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## Shalimar (Sep 6, 2015)

Bee, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Literally, one can choose to nitpick these refugees to death by such actions. There will always be excuses not to help. I am not a Christian, but a dear friend who is, refers to this approach as Phariseeitis. Sad.


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## Warrigal (Sep 6, 2015)

If you can access Facebook you might like to listen to this Sunday sermon on the subject of refugees.
Father Rod has been speaking out for years on this subject.

He links the lectionary with the sad story of the little boy drowned in the sea of Turkey.

https://www.facebook.com/anggos?fref=nf


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## BobF (Sep 6, 2015)

I know this will get attacked on this thread but to me it is where we all are not doing what we could and should be doing for at least a year now.

All the European countries, England, US, Canada, Australia, and whomever else fears for the innocents of the Arab areas should be putting troops in the area specifically to shut down those nasty ISIS and other killer mentalities that are forcing so many thousands away from their homes and running to where ever they can to avoid these cruel killings they are threatened with.  Why should they be run from their homes of centuries.   Why should these crazy folks be allowed to destroy large areas and kill all, men, women, children, who they don't like.   This is just not right at all.    As soon as they get done killing or driving away all they can their territory will just be made larger and larger till this madness is all over the world.

Can Europe and the Americas and Australia keep taking all these unfortunate ones for long.   Probably not too long until safety and food and health all become stressed and unable to keep up.   Those folks deserve to have their homes and not be run around.   We should be able to keep our homes.    We should be ready to face those killers chasing and killing the people and end their existence so the can no longer kill the innocents.

For all the cowards that won't allow folks to defend themselves or others to help.   Time to wake up.   These are not good times in this world.


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## Warrigal (Sep 6, 2015)

There is no simple solution Bob because the conditions are different in each country. In some it is war, others persecution by the government/regime and in others if is economic collapse. 

Syria is a case in point. ISIS is active there in, I think, the north but the Assad government in the south has killed many more people than ISIS. Russia is supporting Assad and apparently now has troops on the ground. America and some allies are attacking ISIS and ISIS is laying waste to whole cities. Half the population has fled into neighbouring countries  and after a while they move on, hoping to find safe haven where they can build a life.

Are you suggesting that America bomb ISIS and any civilians still trapped with them into the stone age but leave Assad in place because of his powerful ally? Would this encourage you to return to Syria from the safety of Germany or Sweden if you had managed to escape?

Sorting out some of these societies will take decades. In the meantime we have people in crisis who need help. Those with the capacity to help are morally obliged to come forward.


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## BobF (Sep 6, 2015)

I don't think you saw what I was proposing at all.   I say all countries, including Russia if willing, would put an end to the ISIS and other killing and destroying groups.   What is need over their is a monster police force that would stop these radical groups, no matter what they call themselves.   Where is the UN forces that once were called to help end things like this.   Is the UN on vacation these days or have all the capable countries decided to not help.

We have some operating out of Syria and more out of Iran.   Those in Iran have been threatening the US recently.   There are other nasty groups in that area and they won't quite till others stand in their way and make them stop.   This push them away or kill them is something that must be stopped.   We can't all just stand back an do nothing as that will be a permission to those radicals to just keep expanding and killing.


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## Don M. (Sep 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Are you saying the USA cannot do anything... we are too poor... and the undocumented workers are  causing us to NOT be able to help with the Syrian refugees?    Is that what you are saying???



No...I Am Not saying the U.S. is too poor to help...let me clarify my position for you...since you seem to be So "Selective".

First, I don't trust the Muslims.  Any populace who follows the teachings of the Quran (Koran) explicitly...with its numerous references to killing all "Infidels", is Not to be trusted, and This Infidel would certainly not be so Stupid as to welcome such people into my presence.  Here is a summation of the many quotes in the teachings of Islam which reference the elimination of All Non-Believers.  I would urge anyone who thinks that bringing these people into the Western nations is a good thing, to read these quotes carefully.

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html 

Second, this Middle East refugee crisis, And the flow of illegals into the U.S. is just the beginning of what will become a major problem for the Western nations in coming years.  These issues are ALL a symptom of the biggest underlying problem humanity will face...Overpopulation.  Numerous studies have come to the conclusion that about 5 billion people is the maximum population that this planet can sustain...and allow for a decent standard of living.  We are already well over 7 billion, with 9 billion expected by mid century, and perhaps as many as 12 billion by the end of this century.  Given that automation and robotics are already taking over many once good paying jobs, and many parts of the world cannot supply sufficient food for existing populations...adding billions more to the planet will Certainly result in a major problem.  Even the wealthy nations will face such problems, as there will be fewer opportunities for people to carve out a decent existence for themselves.  No amount of government "assistance" is going to be able to withstand the demands placed upon it, when these numbers are reached.  Only if those still lucky enough to have a good job are taxed for 50%, or more, of their income to support those who are unemployed, will government aid be sustainable....and you can guess how many people will be willing to give up half of their incomes to support such aid. 

Humanity is headed for a Brick Wall, as a result of this unchecked population growth...and I firmly believe the crisis will erupt in the latter half of this century.  Humanity is going to face One More War...and it will Not be so much Nation vs. Nation....but rather the Haves against the Have Not's.  It will be more a "developed" world vs. the "undeveloped"...and will even include places like our wealthier suburbs vs. the inner city ghetto's.  The Bible refers to it as Armageddon, but the writers of those verses could not foresee the specific conditions in today's world that would trigger the Event....but their basic premise is quickly coming to fruition. 

So, Yes...it is certainly a tragedy to see things like this Syrian mess, and the horrible living conditions that pervade so many poorer areas...but many of the problems these people face are largely a result of their own bad decisions, and their inability to adhere to the basic laws of Supply and Demand.  It is wishful thinking that we can resolve such issues by continually "Giving".  

The 22nd Century is going to see a Dawn of a new direction for humanity.  If the Have Not's prevail, humans will be living much as they did in the Dark Ages.  If the Haves prevail, the world will begin to come together as One Nation, under a common government, and language, and Humans will reach for the stars.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 6, 2015)

Oh... ok....   People make a bad decision being born in certain countries..   If they were smart.. they would have been born here in the USA..  I get it..


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## Warrigal (Sep 6, 2015)

BobF said:


> I don't think you saw what I was proposing at all.   I say all countries, including Russia if willing, would put an end to the ISIS and other killing and destroying groups.   What is need over their is a monster police force that would stop these radical groups, no matter what they call themselves.   Where is the UN forces that once were called to help end things like this.   Is the UN on vacation these days or have all the capable countries decided to not help.
> 
> We have some operating out of Syria and more out of Iran.   Those in Iran have been threatening the US recently.   There are other nasty groups in that area and they won't quite till others stand in their way and make them stop.   This push them away or kill them is something that must be stopped.   We can't all just stand back an do nothing as that will be a permission to those radicals to just keep expanding and killing.



Have you forgotten that the five permanent members of the Security Council have a veto over UN resolutions. The UK, France, China, Russia and the US can stop UN peacekeeping efforts. The UN does not fight wars but individual nations do - yours is one of the most enthusiastic and on a smaller scale, so is mine.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 6, 2015)

Here's something to help put things in perspective..  This is a Syrian refugee camp in Jordan..


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## Don M. (Sep 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh... ok....   People make a bad decision being born in certain countries..   If they were smart.. they would have been born here in the USA..  I get it..



No, You Don't "Get it".  Nation of birth is Not a guarantee of prosperity.  Over 45 million people in the U.S., the vast majority of which were born and raised here, live in poverty.  Meanwhile, the number of billionaires...all over the world, has increased to almost 1900.  There are very rich, and very poor in virtually All nations.  A minor percentage of the poor are that way because of disabilities, and health problems, etc.  Many of the others....at least in the U.S., have joined those ranks because of their failure to pay attention in school, or have succumbed to a life centered around Booze and Drugs, or have allowed their "virility" to saddle them with more children than they can afford to raise.  There are any number of reasons why people live in poverty, here....but the majority can put most of the blame on the person they see in the mirror.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 7, 2015)

Don M. said:


> No, You Don't "Get it".  Nation of birth is Not a guarantee of prosperity.  Over 45 million people in the U.S., the vast majority of which were born and raised here, live in poverty.  Meanwhile, the number of billionaires...all over the world, has increased to almost 1900.  There are very rich, and very poor in virtually All nations.  A minor percentage of the poor are that way because of disabilities, and health problems, etc.  Many of the others....at least in the U.S., have joined those ranks because of their failure to pay attention in school, or have succumbed to a life centered around Booze and Drugs, or have allowed their "virility" to saddle them with more children than they can afford to raise.  There are any number of reasons why people live in poverty, here....but the majority can put most of the blame on the person they see in the mirror.



Yeah... so?    What has this got to do with how many Syrian refugees the US takes in?   Whose to say many of the won't "MAKE IT" if given the chance here?


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## Shalimar (Sep 7, 2015)

I am saddened when I hear  all Muslims targeted as  untrustworthy because of selective passages of the Quran. The Christian Bible has no shortage of verses dedicated to all manner of death, destruction, slavery, incest etc. Does that make all Christians untrustworthy? Hardly. Stuff taken out of context. As for blame the victim rationality, that is a prime example of avoidance. Simplistic in the extreme. Syrian refugees, many of them children, need our help. Either our nations are compassionate, supposedly Christian (by many people's standards,) countries, or we are hypocrites who don't walk the talk. We should at least be honest about it.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 7, 2015)

[h=1]“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”[/h]
― Stephen Colbert


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## Warrigal (Sep 7, 2015)

Light the Dark vigils are taking place across Australia in support of compassion for refugees.
It took the death of a little boy to give a human face to their plight.

*Thousands gather in Melbourne's Treasury Gardens for Light The Dark vigil for asylum seekers*

 Mon 7 Sep 2015    





Thousands of people have gathered in Melbourne's Treasury Gardens in a vigil for asylum seekers and to honour the toddler found drowned on a Turkish beach. Organisers called on those gathered at the Light The Dark vigil to light a candle for Aylan Kurdi, who died fleeing from Syria with his family. The photo has become a symbol of the Syrian asylum seekers fleeing their homeland in the European crisis.

Participants wanted to send a message of solidarity and welcome for asylum seekers across the world. One woman carried a sign saying "we are sorry" and "welcome refugees". The participants called on the Federal Government to welcome more refugees and paused for a minute of silence for the dead boy.

"We will keep coming out to fight, to light the dark until our Government opens its heart and opens the door," Pamela Curr, of the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, told the crowd. "We need to open our hearts. We've done it before and we'll do it again."

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews echoed that message earlier when he called on the Federal Government to increase the number of humanitarian refugees for Australia. Opposition Leader Matthew Guy backed the call and said the former army barracks at Point Nepean could be used to house the refugees.

Similar rallies were also held in Perth, Sydney and Adelaide and others will be held in Brisbane and Canberra later this week.




*Photo:*       Thousands of people braved showers to attend a rally in support of refugees at Treasury Gardens.  (ABC News:  Stephanie Anderson)


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## Shalimar (Sep 7, 2015)

Thank you Warri, for sharing this. Made me cry. Gives me hope.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 7, 2015)

Nice, but there are limits to what a nation can absorb and the limit seems to being reached...


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## Davey Jones (Sep 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm thinking we can easily take 20,000 or more..  Maybe 50,000




We can't even take care of our own why do we need 20,000 more?

*15.8* million children under 18 in the United States live in households where they are unable to consistently access enough nutritious food necessary for a healthy life.

http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunge...t-sheet.html?gclid=CPirib2J5ccCFQgRHwod310IkQ


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

BobF said:


> .....We have some operating out of Syria and more out of Iran.   Those in Iran have been threatening the US recently.   There are other nasty groups in that area and they won't quite till others stand in their way and make them stop.   This push them away or kill them is something that must be stopped.   We can't all just stand back an do nothing as that will be a permission to those radicals to just keep expanding and killing.



Actually Bob, it's not Iran that ISIS is in (and controlling), it's Iraq.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...up-s-tentacles-reach-Algeria-Afghanistan.html

And according to a CBC report http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-p...-nearly-a-year-of-coalition-bombing-1.3087136, ISIS hasn't been harmed much at all by a years worth of coalition attacks.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 7, 2015)

Tough...  WE are a rich nation.. we can WELL afford to "take care of our own" and many others... IF the greedy didn't hold the puppet strings in Washington.    To say we cannot take in thousands of these people is NONSENSE...


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I am saddened when I hear  all Muslims targeted as  untrustworthy because of selective passages of the Quran. The Christian Bible has no shortage of verses dedicated to all manner of death, destruction, slavery, incest etc. Does that make all Christians untrustworthy? Hardly. Stuff taken out of context. As for blame the victim rationality, that is a prime example of avoidance. Simplistic in the extreme. Syrian refugees, many of them children, need our help. Either our nations are compassionate, supposedly Christian (by many people's standards,) countries, or we are hypocrites who don't walk the talk. We should at least be honest about it.




Good points Shalimar.    (PS  I've tried several times to get the image off this comment and it just won't go.  Oh well, has nothing to do with Shalimar's comment or my reply although I did include the link in an earlier comment)


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## BobF (Sep 7, 2015)

Debby said:


> Actually Bob, it's not Iran that ISIS is in (and controlling), it's Iraq.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...up-s-tentacles-reach-Algeria-Afghanistan.html
> 
> And according to a CBC report http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-p...-nearly-a-year-of-coalition-bombing-1.3087136, ISIS hasn't been harmed much at all by a years worth of coalition attacks.



Correction for you.   I was speaking of Iran as they have already weakened Iraq and are threatening the US in their public speakings.   Really surprised that the US is willing to give Iran freedom as those threats are made.    We should keep Iran tethered some more.   It was Iran that directly snubbed the US and took away our embassy and made all US folks to be prisoners.   No real reason for the US to give Iran freedom to be nasty to others once again.

Random bombings won't do the job.   It would be the armed interventions of many countries that could pull all those nations back toward sanity.


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## Don M. (Sep 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Tough...  WE are a rich nation.. we can WELL afford to "take care of our own" and many others... IF the greedy didn't hold the puppet strings in Washington.    To say we cannot take in thousands of these people is NONSENSE...



There is a "Side Effect" to this refugee crisis, which is being overlooked by most people.  Sure, there are many families and small children making this exodus....but it is Also providing ISIS and other Muslim extremist groups a perfect conduit to infiltrate Western nations with dozens, perhaps hundreds of their radical supporters.  ISIS is Not Stupid, and they see this as a golden opportunity to spread their extremism to the West.  Do you think that the governments taking in these refugees are doing any kind of background check on these individuals??   Many of the wealthy Arab nations are refusing to take in any of these refugees because they are fully aware of the potential dangers involved.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...y-doing-so-exposes-them-to-risk-of-terrorism/

The U.S. is already taking in large numbers of "so called" refugees.  Not only does our porous Southern border allow easy entry to any, and all, but our own government is actively engaged in taking in large numbers of "official" refugees.  Here is a little know program that is currently in process.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/05/dhs-caug...alis-from-mexican-border/#sCePjPt6D8Z6vtCR.30

When future "Boston Marathon" bombings occur, perhaps some of the people who are fully in favor of this unchecked migration may have to rethink their positions.  

I am especially confused by the thinking of Any Western Women who fully support this immigration.  Do these women harbor a secret wish to spend their lives wearing a burka and veil, and being treated as Chattel???


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## Shalimar (Sep 7, 2015)

If the extreme religious right of America, Christian, that is, have their way, women will be treated as chattels even without a burqa. Frankly, they are far more dangerous at this point re the desecration of hard fought women's rights than Muslim refugees.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 7, 2015)

Don M. said:


> There is a "Side Effect" to this refugee crisis, which is being overlooked by most people.  Sure, there are many families and small children making this exodus....but it is Also providing ISIS and other Muslim extremist groups a perfect conduit to infiltrate Western nations with dozens, perhaps hundreds of their radical supporters.  ISIS is Not Stupid, and they see this as a golden opportunity to spread their extremism to the West.  Do you think that the governments taking in these refugees are doing any kind of background check on these individuals??   Many of the wealthy Arab nations are refusing to take in any of these refugees because they are fully aware of the potential dangers involved.
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...y-doing-so-exposes-them-to-risk-of-terrorism/
> 
> ...




Heard a stat of 5% of those refugees probably up to no good or had a terrorist past or ties. This is why any country needs controlled immigration even if it's getting a photo and fingerprints along with their chosen name, reward those refugees by advancing them in the process if their background is more verifiable. Not saying toss the others back but you can't let them lose in society without some processing/investigations.


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## Don M. (Sep 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> If the extreme religious right of America, Christian, that is, have their way, women will be treated as chattels even without a burqa. Frankly, they are far more dangerous at this point re the desecration of hard fought women's rights than Muslim refugees.



OH...Have I missed something???  Is there a church or religious group, consisting of more than a small handful of whacko's,  that is advocating turning back the clock 100+ years???  I generally try to follow the news pretty closely, but if I have missed something, Please enlighten me.


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

BobF said:


> Correction for you.   I was speaking of Iran as they have already weakened Iraq and are threatening the US in their public speakings.   Really surprised that the US is willing to give Iran freedom as those threats are made.    We should keep Iran tethered some more.   It was Iran that directly snubbed the US and took away our embassy and made all US folks to be prisoners.   No real reason for the US to give Iran freedom to be nasty to others once again.
> 
> Random bombings won't do the job.   It would be the armed interventions of many countries that could pull all those nations back toward sanity.




Bob, one thing that I've discovered in all of the reading that I've been doing over the past couple of years is that 'my enemy today......is my associate/ally tomorrow'.  It is quite amazing really. I would also point out that 100 years ago, the US invaded Cuba, took away Guantanamo, than fifty years ago (approximates for number of years) laid sanctions against Cuba that impoverished that country and yet here' you and they' are today.....times change, leaders and agenda's change and grudges accomplish nothing as a rule.  Japan would be another excellent example.

One thing that would probably help is if the US used its influence with the Saudi's, Qatar and Kuwait to bring about an end to the support that ISIS is apparently still receiving from groups in those countries.  As late as 2014, those countries have wealthy donors that are making sure that ISIS is funded, supplied with arms, etc.  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Heard a stat of 5% of those refugees probably up to no good or had a terrorist past or ties. This is why any country needs controlled immigration even if it's getting a photo and fingerprints along with their chosen name, reward those refugees by advancing them in the process if their background is more verifiable. Not saying toss the others back but you can't let them lose in society with some processing/investigations.





I believe that is what the role is of the UNHCR is.  http://www.unhcr.ca

I think that one of their roles is to verify the legitimacy of refugee claimants.


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

Don M. said:


> ....
> 
> I am especially confused by the thinking of Any Western Women who fully support this immigration.  Do these women harbor a secret wish to spend their lives wearing a burka and veil, and being treated as Chattel???





You didn't seriously ask that question did you?  

Good people reach out to help.  And when women see other women and their children suffering, we respond from the heart and as we have done for generations, we sometimes/often are willing to put fear aside in order to reach out.  Historically women have suffered at the hands of abusers and we identify with other women and children who suffer.  Even today, you look at the local governments in America (primarily run by white men) who would see rape victims prevented even in the early weeks, from terminating pregnancies that resulted.  The abuse is still there despite how nice you are to your wife.   My guess is that that's what Shalimar was thinking of or variations, in her last comment.


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## BobF (Sep 7, 2015)

Debby said:


> Bob, one thing that I've discovered in all of the reading that I've been doing over the past couple of years is that 'my enemy today......is my associate/ally tomorrow'.  It is quite amazing really. I would also point out that 100 years ago, the US invaded Cuba, took away Guantanamo, than fifty years ago (approximates for number of years) laid sanctions against Cuba that impoverished that country and yet here' you and they' are today.....times change, leaders and agenda's change and grudges accomplish nothing as a rule.  Japan would be another excellent example.
> 
> One thing that would probably help is if the US used its influence with the Saudi's, Qatar and Kuwait to bring about an end to the support that ISIS is apparently still receiving from groups in those countries.  As late as 2014, those countries have wealthy donors that are making sure that ISIS is funded, supplied with arms, etc.  http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/14/america-s-allies-are-funding-isis.html



Yes, in years past the US was not happy with a communist neighbor and made that very public.   We even stood down Communist Russia and they left Cuba.    Now we have a left leaning socialist type person that has no ongoing hate for a communist neighbor, so now we are shaking hands with what was in the past an enemy of the US way of thinking about freedom for the individuals.   

We also have a large group of former Cubans living in the US.   Many living in Florida.    One of our Presidential hopefuls was raised to a Cuban escapee family.   Nothing is better in Cuba these days but now with the borders opened again I expect to see more freedom leaking into Cuba.   When the Castro's are gone, maybe some change over from hard communist to a more lenient type of government will take place.   

Hopefully.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 7, 2015)

I guess we are VERY particular about our immigrants..  BROWN people and MUSLIMS need not apply.   BUT I don't think we are going to see a whole bunch of White Europeans clamoring to get into the USA..   They have it much better in their home country..  although they would be the "acceptable" type to come here..


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## BobF (Sep 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I guess we are VERY particular about our immigrants..  BROWN people and MUSLIMS need not apply.   BUT I don't think we are going to see a whole bunch of White Europeans clamoring to get into the USA..   They have it much better in their home country..  although they would be the "acceptable" type to come here..



Not sure where you got that information, as it is wrong.    We do have many brown peoples living and arriving in the US.   Brown I assume is about *****'s from  Africa or Native Indians from Mexico, Central, or South America.   We have Muslims arriving all the time and some areas of some cities have turned into Muslim centers.   When I was working in a visitor center we would every once in a while get a European that would stop in and ask about moving to the US.   I personally talked with an English lady and a German man.  There are lots of nice historical places to live in Europe but housing in general is smaller than the average US house of about 1,800 sq ft.   Many homes in England or Germany are more closer to 1,000 sq ft.


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## Debby (Sep 7, 2015)

Would it be fair to say QS that your comment was as they say, 'tongue in cheek'?  A little bit of Colbert style sarcasm/humor?


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## QuickSilver (Sep 7, 2015)

Debby said:


> Would it be fair to say QS that your comment was as they say, 'tongue in cheek'?  A little bit of Colbert style sarcasm/humor?




They as in white anglo saxon English speaking immigrants..  preferably Christian..  maybe even an occasional Jew..   BUT no Brown people.. (as in Hispanic) and certainly no Muslims..   We are very particular..  lol!!


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## Shalimar (Sep 7, 2015)

Hmmm, and no protected right wing  Christian religious groups wishing to keep women subservient, perpetually pregnant, and undereducated? Never! Lol


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## BobF (Sep 7, 2015)

I just don't see humor in that so I guess my response was wrong.

I have no idea about Colbert.   Never watched his shows, nor many others of those night time offerings.    I get up at 5am and crash in the evening at about 9pm.


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## Sunny (Sep 7, 2015)

Colbert has a fake right-wing persona, which he uses to satirize ignorant conservatism.


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## BobF (Sep 7, 2015)

Sunny said:


> Colbert has a fake right-wing persona, which he uses to satirize ignorant conservatism.



Thank you Sunny.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 8, 2015)

Things aren't looking too pretty right now in Greece with clashes, riots, protests from migrants on Greek Island.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-verge-of-explosion-after-fresh-clashes.html

It's not all fleeing a war zone, heard where some are admitting to seeking other opportunities. Regardless this is why you need controlled immigration, you can't give a bunch of line cutters their way in any country.


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## Susie (Sep 8, 2015)

Thank you, D.W. for your compassionate and detailed report.(38)
Still cry when I see masses of refugees, (TV or other media).
(Bremen refugee/holding camp, 1947/48).


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## BobF (Sep 8, 2015)

Something for all of us to think about.    In the US we have an estimated 100,000 unrecognized folks already living here.   They came over, under, around out fences.   They came on visitor passes and never left.   These are not the ones we already have registered or accounted for so we have lots and lots of real visitor's and lots and lots of unregistered visitors.   How many more?    That will be up to some a lot smarter than I to decide.    

I really don't understand how some of those much smaller countries in Europe can handle so many visitors.   I believe some have already started to shut down and now require some good evidence of quality or they don't get to enter.   I believe one is Denmark, but maybe today I heard of a couple more lower down and in Europe.   I would think we could do a lot better as a world wide police force making sure those wild folks learn to respect each others ideas of moral and fair.   Those radicals are busy killing just for no reasons.   They are destroying art works and religious structures of hundreds of years age, for no real reasons at all.

Are these the same mentality that caused Europe to put together those crusades hundreds of years back?    Maybe we could also put on a crusade, not Christian ideas, but for honesty and safety of all.   Maybe a crusade to end religious control of any and all lands.


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## Warrigal (Sep 8, 2015)

Our PM is right now announcing that Australia will take an additional 12,000 Syrian refugees for permanent settlement. They will be taken from camps in neighbouring countries and will focus on imperilled minority groups and on women, children and families.

In addition he has committed an immediate $44 million to the UN to support 240,000 people in camps.
This is a good start but in twelve months time we would need to see what else we can do.

He has also announced that Australian planes will now be able to strike against ISIS targets in Syria as well as Iraq. 
The number of planes is not being increased.


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## Don M. (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm somewhat surprised at the willingness of the European nations....especially Austria and Germany....to take in large numbers of these people.  Given the experiences of the people in Belgium and the Netherlands, I would think that Germany, especially, would be a bit hesitant to invite this hoard into its midst.  Here's an article that gives some insight into what Belgium/the Netherlands has been experiencing.  It's a long read, but well worth the time.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4129/islamization-belgium-netherlands


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## Susie (Sep 10, 2015)

Don M. said:


> I'm somewhat surprised at the willingness of the European nations....especially Austria and Germany....to take in large numbers of these people.  Given the experiences of the people in Belgium and the Netherlands, I would think that Germany, especially, would be a bit hesitant to invite this hoard into its midst.  Here's an article that gives some insight into what Belgium/the Netherlands has been experiencing.  It's a long read, but well worth the time.
> 
> http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4129/islamization-belgium-netherlands


"THESE PEOPLE"
" THIS HOARD''
Could weep at the implied contempt!
Do you have any idea what's it like to be a homeless, hungry, unwanted refugee?
Have you ever been one of THESE PEOPLE?

No, I didn't think so!


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## Shalimar (Sep 10, 2015)

Until we stop believing that it is "ok" for innocent people to suffer because somehow we might be inconvenienced in a way we do not care for, we will never be able to call ourselves Christian/humanitarian nations. Christianity aside, there is no such thing as "those people," only people who desperately need our help. Either all of us are deserving, or none. I do not want to live in a throw away world, where only some merit the right to be  acceptable refugee material. I have clothing etc ready to donate to persons arriving in Canada. We can make a difference if we open our hearts. What price humanity? What horrific price, the lack of it?


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## Underock1 (Sep 10, 2015)

We have some really good people on this forum. Proud to know you all. I am so tired of all of the haters who only care about who is living in the house down the street. I must say, I am conflicted though. I hate all of the military interventions that end up as unending conflicts, but I just want to lash out. If only _*the whole world* _could get together and absolutely _crush _these inhuman creatures who are causing everyone to flee. The real solution is to make life livable in the countries they are fleeing from. Don't bother coming back at me on this. I am totally aware that this is a stupid and entirely unrealistic thought. I just had to indulge myself in a verbal scream to vent my frustrations. What a massive human tragedy.


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## Underock1 (Sep 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Until we stop believing that it is "ok" for innocent people to suffer because somehow we might be inconvenienced in a way we do not care for, we will never be able to call ourselves Christian/humanitarian nations. Christianity aside, there is no such thing as "those people," only people who desperately need our help. Either all of us are deserving, or none. I do not want to live in a throw away world, where only some merit the right to be  acceptable refugee material. I have clothing etc ready to donate to persons arriving in Canada. We can make a difference if we open our hearts. What price humanity? What horrific price, the lack of it?



Yes, Yes, and *Yes! *:applause2::applause2::applause2:


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## Shalimar (Sep 10, 2015)

On a positive note. An older lady, a friend who happens to be Jewish, used to be employed as a seamstress by one of the great design houses back in the day. Even now she dresses like something out of Vogue. Anyway, currently she is turning her talents toward fashioning zillions of beautiful hijabs and headscarves for Muslim refugees arriving in Canada. These head pieces are works of art, each containing a label transcribed in Arabic. "Welcome to Canada. This is your home now, you are one of us." I can't stop tearing up every time I think of this.  Humanity, indeed.


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## Underock1 (Sep 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> On a positive note. An older lady, a friend who happens to be Jewish, used to be employed as a seamstress by one of the great design houses back in the day. Even now she dresses like something out of Vogue. Anyway, currently she is turning her talents toward fashioning zillions of beautiful hijabs and headscarves for Muslim refugees arriving in Canada. These head pieces are works of art, each containing a label transcribed in Arabic. "Welcome to Canada. This is your home now, you are one of us." I can't stop tearing up every time I think of this.  Humanity, indeed.



I've never met a Jew that I didn't like. Great philanthropists and humanitarians, and pretty darned funny sometimes.


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## Shalimar (Sep 10, 2015)

Underock you are so right. This lady's humour would make Betty White blush, they are approximately the same age also. I just love her, and her kugel.  Every year she buys me Glenfiddich for my birthday. Helps me drink it too!


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## WhatInThe (Sep 10, 2015)

Susie said:


> "THESE PEOPLE"
> " THIS HOARD''
> Could weep at the implied contempt!
> Do you have any idea what's it like to be a homeless, hungry, unwanted refugee?
> ...



Hoard or horde is a pretty accurate description as to what is going on in Europe right now. Hoard is a lot shorter than massive numbers of refugees. And Europe who has been home turf for two world wars and the Serbian conflict has a right to be worried, cautious or say no. No one is saying don't help the refugees but that all they should get-help, not citizenship, not their battles fought for them, not a job but help until they can return home or have been trained to take back their home. If some of these refugees want asylum, working papers or citizenship then apply for in turn like everyone else and not a line cutter. 

Some of these European countries are smaller than a state and getting more immigrants than a larger country gets in one year. You can't overload a life boat or everybody sinks and that's how these refugees are looking at these countries. The EU hedged and hogged when it came to bailing out one of their own-Greece so what are they supposed to do to finance all of these refugees. To top it off the phrase beggars can't choosers actually fits here because they're not just happy to be in Europe many are demanding countries like Germany or the UK. They are going through Europe like a horde.


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## Shalimar (Sep 10, 2015)

Not their battles fought for them? Mon Dieu, c'est tragique! If these battles are not fought "for them," zillions of innocents will continue to suffer heinous torment, slavery, rape, death etc. at the hands of monsters. That is simply not acceptable. These are not  nameless statistics but human beings, not a "horde." In my book, principals outweigh convenience.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Not their battles fought for them? Mon Dieu, c'est tragique! If these battles are not fought "for them," zillions of innocents will continue to suffer heinous torment, slavery, rape, death etc. at the hands of monsters. That is simply not acceptable. These are not  nameless statistics but human beings, not a "horde." In my book, principals outweigh convenience.



Have these refugees asked for help in overthrowing Assad. Have they rushed to or demanded to speak to Western intelligence agencies with usable intelligence. What are there demands or requests. It actually seems like demands right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3227436/Syrian-refugees-turned-Lesbos-war-zone-residents-claim-migrants-chant-f-Hungarian-police-amid-fears-ISIS-using-crisis-enter-Europe.html






Horde is correct spelling. 

http://www.educationbug.org/a/hoard-vs-horde.html


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## Don M. (Sep 10, 2015)

If just 1% of these refugees are Die Hard Muslims, and ISIS sympathizers, the nations taking these people in could be exposing their existing populations to thousands of potential terrorists.  When these "refugees" find little in the way of jobs opportunities, and the governments taking them in are having to "manipulate" their social/welfare programs to keep them fed and housed, the frustrations are going to start setting in....in Both population groups.  

Don't be too surprised if there isn't a substantial increase in terrorist activities in the Western nations that get involved with this "resettlement", a year or two down the road.  I wonder what the reaction of today's "sympathizers" will be when Europe, Australia, etc., start seeing a major increase in things like suicide bombings.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 10, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If just 1% of these refugees are Die Hard Muslims, and ISIS sympathizers, the nations taking these people in could be exposing their existing populations to thousands of potential terrorists.  When these "refugees" find little in the way of jobs opportunities, and the governments taking them in are having to "manipulate" their social/welfare programs to keep them fed and housed, the frustrations are going to start setting in....in Both population groups.
> 
> Don't be too surprised if there isn't a substantial increase in terrorist activities in the Western nations that get involved with this "resettlement", a year or two down the road.  I wonder what the reaction of today's "sympathizers" will be when Europe, Australia, etc., start seeing a major increase in things like suicide bombings.




Everyone wants to feel all warm and fuzzy now but one need only look at the Mariel Boat Lift of 1980 when Castro cleaned up his jails and dumped his societal problems on the US with a high crime rate attributed to many Mariel Cubans several years later.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1985-09-26/news/8502100720_1_mariel-boatlift-criminals

This is not just an example for the US but Europe as well. This is a perfect example of why a country needs a controlled and calculated immigration process.

Also immigrants legal or not can strain government aid budgets. A recent study in the US shows over half the new immigrants using government aid programs which conflicts with the rationalization of 'contributing' immigrants.

http://www.hngn.com/articles/128225...ke-up-75-percent-of-immigrant-welfare-use.htm

Strained budgets and services and lack of jobs/income do not bode well for any country & society. Greece is perfect recent example of that.

 Slow controlled immigration, not massive migration which is nothing but a population shift.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 16, 2015)

*Riots At Hungarian Border*

Riots and protests near Hungry who sealed off their border.

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2015/09/15/72340788/

Where was all this effort in Syria. This is the stuff coup's and overthrows are made of.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 16, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Riots and protests near Hungry who sealed off their border.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/world/2015/09/15/72340788/
> 
> Where was all this effort in Syria. This is the stuff coup's and overthrows are made of.



Wait... are they running from the Syrian government... or ISIS...   and don't forget Russia is in there helping Assad now..  So who should they riot against?


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## WhatInThe (Sep 24, 2015)

Many posing as Syrians to get into Europe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...8-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html?tid=sm_fb

Lots of bath water coming with these babies.


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## WhatInThe (Sep 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Wait... are they running from the Syrian government... or ISIS...   and don't forget Russia is in there helping Assad now..  So who should they riot against?



These people don't know who invaded them, destroyed their homes, treated them like crap??? I would go to a safER region to plot my return. Revolutionaries have done that for centuries.


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## boozercruiser (Sep 24, 2015)

*Enough is enough is enough! *

*We have lost control of borders, says EU chief: Warning hours before summit comes as Britain faces £150m bill to support other nations despite not taking part in resettlement programme *


*Britain faces £150million bill to fund EU scheme to deal with migrant crisis*
*Jean-Claude Juncker told countries: 'put their money where your mouth is'*
*Demand made despite Britain saying it does not want to be part of scheme *
*It came as the EU Council president said **refugees** 'feel invited' to Europe*
*Donald Tusk said EU at 'critical point' and needs to regain border control *
By JOHN STEVENS, BRUSSELS CORRESPONDENT FOR THE DAILY MAIL and SAM TONKIN FOR MAILONLINE
*PUBLISHED:* 00:50, 24 September 2015 | *UPDATED:* 09:13, 24 September 2015




Britain faces the prospect of having to pay more than £150million to fund a controversial EU scheme to deal with the migrant crisis on the continent, it was revealed last night.
Announcing that the EU is to spend an extra £1.25billion on emergency support to European countries, EU police officers and humanitarian aid, Jean-Claude Juncker told countries including Britain it was time to 'put their money where your mouth is'.
The demand was made despite Britain's repeated insistence that it does not want to be part of the resettlement programme. 
*It followed a warning last night that millions more refugees will flood into Europe because the EU has lost control of its borders, according to one of its most senior officials.*


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## WhatInThe (Sep 24, 2015)

This problem, issue, crisis what ever has to be taken back to it's source and/or region of the world. I still find it baffling that all these people can find the money, effort and time for planning to illegally immigrate/cross another country's border and yet can't find it in them to fight back in any fashion. There are covert ops skills in illegal border crossing, fence jumping, storming, smuggling etc. Running away from a problem does not solve it even in the country voluntarily chose to illegally go into.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 19, 2015)

US House votes to increase vetting of Syrian Refugees.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...an-refugees-us-without-more-vetting/76041668/

If nothing else the existing processes in place should not be ignored or expedited for any immigrant group.


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## Fern (Nov 19, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If just 1% of these refugees are Die Hard Muslims, and ISIS sympathizers, the nations taking these people in could be exposing their existing populations to thousands of potential terrorists.  When these "refugees" find little in the way of jobs opportunities, and the governments taking them in are having to "manipulate" their social/welfare programs to keep them fed and housed, the frustrations are going to start setting in....in Both population groups.
> 
> Don't be too surprised if there isn't a substantial increase in terrorist activities in the Western nations that get involved with this "resettlement", a year or two down the road.  I wonder what the reaction of today's "sympathizers" will be when Europe, Australia, etc., start seeing a major increase in things like suicide bombings.


I agree, it's only a matter of time.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 19, 2015)

Must get thru the Senate... and survive a Presidential veto..  so don't celebrate just yet


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## Shalimar (Nov 19, 2015)

QS, if the president exercises his veto, what if anything will happen to those forty five (I think,) democrats who voted with the republicans? Or were  they voting strategically, hoping to keep their seats in next election?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 19, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> QS, if the president exercises his veto, what if anything will happen to those forty five (I think,) democrats who voted with the republicans? Or were  they voting strategically, hoping to keep their seats in next election?



They will need 2 dems change the vote to over-ride the veto.. The Senate will need 66.  I'm interested to see the senate vote count.  Both the Senate and the House needs 2/3 votes to beat a veto


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## Misty (Nov 19, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If just 1% of these refugees are Die Hard Muslims, and ISIS sympathizers, the nations taking these people in could be exposing their existing populations to thousands of potential terrorists.  When these "refugees" find little in the way of jobs opportunities, and the governments taking them in are having to "manipulate" their social/welfare programs to keep them fed and housed, the frustrations are going to start setting in....in Both population groups.
> 
> Don't be too surprised if there isn't a substantial increase in terrorist activities in the Western nations that get involved with this "resettlement", a year or two down the road.  I wonder what the reaction of today's "sympathizers" will be when Europe, Australia, etc., start seeing a major increase in things like suicide bombings.



The illegal immigrants here are already taking jobs away from our citizens,  Don, and some are having to train the illegals to take over their jobs. Much frustration for them.


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## chic (Nov 20, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If just 1% of these refugees are Die Hard Muslims, and ISIS sympathizers, the nations taking these people in could be exposing their existing populations to thousands of potential terrorists. When these "refugees" find little in the way of jobs opportunities, and the governments taking them in are having to "manipulate" their social/welfare programs to keep them fed and housed, the frustrations are going to start setting in....in Both population groups.
> 
> Don't be too surprised if there isn't a substantial increase in terrorist activities in the Western nations that get involved with this "resettlement", a year or two down the road. I wonder what the reaction of today's "sympathizers" will be when Europe, Australia, etc., start seeing a major increase in things like suicide bombings.



I think you've said it all and I agree. The one thing preventing the US from experiencing more ISIS terrorist attacks is the Atlantic ocean spearating us from them. Allow Syrian refugees into our country and that advantage is gone. 

I'm sorry for refugees genuinely trying to escape these terrorists, but my country's people and their safety must come first.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Wow. Slippery slope from sympathiser to radicalisised. I prefer to heed the antiterrorism expert advising France. He advocates a far different approach.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

Most of these refugees are women and children who have been through hell - torture, lack of food.  Some of the ones who arrived in Scotland were missing limbs.  All of those being settled here are family groups.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

And this is for those who say charity begins at home and we should take care of our own first:


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Annie, most people over here live somewhat protected lives. Few have any personal experience with hunger, torture, living completely unprotected in a war zone. There seems to be among many an attitude that somehow some of these people are 

wimps, who did nothing to fight for their country to eradicate the persons responsible for their plight. These are not soldiers, but civilians---often targeted because of religious or ethnic differences unacceptable to the perps. Again and again, experts 

affirm that these refugees are not a source of danger. Sadly, people cover their ears. Panic has no logic. Daesh is already winning. If no viewed as possible terrorists, these refugees are labeled cowards. Hello, Islamophobia. Xenophobia, isolationism.


----------



## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Annie, most people over here live somewhat protected lives. Few have any personal experience with hunger, torture, living completely unprotected in a war zone. There seems to be among many an attitude that somehow some of these people are
> 
> wimps, who did nothing to fight for their country to eradicate the persons responsible for their plight. These are not soldiers, but civilians---often targeted because of religious or ethnic differences unacceptable to the perps. Again and again, experts
> 
> affirm that these refugees are not a source of danger. Sadly, people cover their ears. Panic has no logic. Daesh is already winning. If no viewed as possible terrorists, these refugees are labeled cowards. Hello, Islamophobia. Xenophobia, isolationism.



Aye, understand.  The media keeps suggesting that some terrorists can sneak in with the refugees.  And I can understand that people are afraid.  But they seem to visualise the big mobs of refugees and think they are just sticking them on planes without checking them out and finding out their histories.  The ones coming to the UK are chosen by UNHCR and those with medical problems or have been tortured get preference.  And they are families.  I guess if the kids were christians and had light skin with blond hair and blue eyes people would be much more willing to take care of them.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

QFT. Annie. If this concern were real, thousands of vets would not be homeless, neither would there be thousands of children--many far below the age of adolescence on the streets of America. straw argument indeed. I recall quite clearly in earlier 

threads, some very scathing remarks made towards the homeless, either hauling out the drug card, or rolling out the haul yourself up by your bootstraps chesnuts. Goodness, what if someone actually received something for nothing! The great thing 

about the politics of shame and blame, is that they allow us to simultaneously feel righteous about our wealth, without needing to find the crowbar necessary to pry our wallet out of our pocket and share with anyone that doesn't fit our narrow view of worthiness.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Goebbels was right when he said, if you can make people afraid, you can make them do anything.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 20, 2015)

shalimar said:


> goebbels was right when he said, if you can make people afraid, you can make them do anything.



qft!!


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Fear of terrorists among planned immigrants is misguided. The lesson fom the Paris horror, is that preventing long term disenchantment requires a warm economic welcome manifesting in social integration. History teaches us  the recurring 

tragedies of poverty and exclusion --very close to home on this continent.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

shalimar said:


> goebbels was right when he said, if you can make people afraid, you can make them do anything.



qft!


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## IKE (Nov 20, 2015)

I never have been accused of being one of the sharper knives in the drawer......I'm tired of trying to figure it out, what in heck does QFT stand for.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

IKE said:


> I never have been accused of being one of the sharper knives in the drawer......I'm tired of trying to figure it out, what in heck does QFT stand for.



Quoted for truth.  In other words, you strongly agree.


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## IKE (Nov 20, 2015)

Thank you ma'am.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

IKE said:


> Thank you ma'am.



As they say in Scotland, nae bother.


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## BobF (Nov 20, 2015)

In the US Constitution we dedicate the Constitution for the protection and freedom of the people living here.    That is the main thing about the concerns of just having too much happening too fast.   Serbia being the main mass.    We have Serbian here already, some accepted and now living here.   Some caught after sneaking in through our unprotected Mexican border.   More will be accepted as soon as the security of them is assured.
...............................

US Constitution preamble.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect  union, establish    justice, *insure domestic tranquility,* provide for  the common defense, promote    the general welfare, and *secure the  blessings of liberty to ourselves* and our    posterity, do ordain and  establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


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## Debby (Nov 20, 2015)

Are you talking about the SYRIANS or Serbians Bob?  If Syrians, and you're referring to the two families (eight in total) who turned themselves in at that Texas border, then you're guilty of fomenting trouble when you refer to them as 'sneaking in'.  Are you sure you want to be part of the spin because we all understand the purpose of telling the story the way that too many are.


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## Debby (Nov 20, 2015)

You know, the thing that one hardly hears in any of the rhetoric that's flying these last few days/weeks/months is 'why is there no talk in the West about cutting off the funding for these monsters'?  Why?  And why is the West insisting on eliminating Assad and refusing to work with Russia on going after these monsters?  Remember, Russia is insisting on a democratic election in Syria and letting the people vote for who they want and isn't that exemplary?  But America says no, not sure at this point what Trudeau's policy on that score is and the battle drags on and on and.....  What are the real priorities?


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

This touched my heart. A Vancouver real estate developer has offered a twelve unit building for first housing for Syrian refugees. Also Vancouver Jewish temple has raised 40k to sponsor Syrian family.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> This touched my heart. A Vancouver real estate developer has offered a twelve unit building for first housing for Syrian refugees. Also Vancouver Jewish temple has raised 40k to sponsor Syrian family.



That is wonderful!


----------



## Debby (Nov 20, 2015)

That is cool that the real estate developer wants to do that!  Good man for sure.


----------



## BobF (Nov 20, 2015)

Debby said:


> Are you talking about the SYRIANS or Serbians Bob?  If Syrians, and you're referring to the two families (eight in total) who turned themselves in at that Texas border, then you're guilty of fomenting trouble when you refer to them as 'sneaking in'.  Are you sure you want to be part of the spin because we all understand the purpose of telling the story the way that too many are.



You are right.   They did not sneak in as I said.    They had been watched and were stopped at the border.   I just read that after the stop the men were sent someplace for more checking and the women and children were sent to some where else.   Unsure of today's status.   

Our southern border is mostly open and a week or so back I posted about an event where I lived happened.   It told of people with packs of drugs on their backs that had walked across the border and were head north of where I live and towards the Phoenix area.   Near 70 miles past the border and still walking along.   But the police and border patrol raided their movement and arrested many while others ran away.   We do need more efforts on our border, fencing and people, and they had been planned, but then stopped a few years back.


----------



## Lon (Nov 20, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm Hoping the USA takes some..   If we don't... so much for the  "*Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, *


Are you saying that you have complete confidence in our countries security apparatus to insure that none of these so called women and children are sleepers. Don't forget, It was a female in France that just blew her self up. In addition there are Syrian factions that may wish to do serious harm to the immigrants. There are just too many security risks and complications by  in letting them in. Compassion should not over rule common sense.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 20, 2015)

Lon said:


> Are you saying that you have complete confidence in our countries security apparatus to insure that none of these so called women and children are sleepers. Don't forget, It was a female in France that just blew her self up. In addition there are Syrian factions that may wish to do serious harm to the immigrants. There are just too many security risks and complications by  in letting them in. Compassion should not over rule common sense.



Check this out:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/20/isis-suspects-us-citizens-syria?CMP=fb_gu

It's not 5 year old Syrian kids you need to worry about.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 20, 2015)

Just saw this on FB...  funny


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## Hap (Nov 20, 2015)

A large part of the difficulty in defending against ISIS and middle east terrorism as a whole is that they are organized and operate remarkably like an infectious disease.  Like the plague, they need a host in order to survive and spread. Without a host the disease will quickly die or become ineffective.  The host for ISIS and other terrorist organizations is the Muslim religion.  Most Muslims are peaceful, honorable people.  Their society does though carry the plague of ISIS et. al.  It seems to me that it is incumbent on the Muslim religion to purge itself of the ISIS disease.  However, I see too many reports pointing toward their being a lot of ISIS support among wealthy Muslims especially in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.  Also, there is a lot of fear of terrorists generated in the Muslim religion similar to the way the Mafia and KKK kept a host through intimidation and through backing of religious and political leaders. Until the Muslim religion can effectively purge itself of the ISIS disease, the only effective protection is to quarantine it. Quarantining is a hard and horrifying action to take.  But it is less so than watching this plague cause death and misery in our own homes.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Hmmm. I disagree. Much horror has been committed in the name of Jesus and Yahweh. Other religions also. Much of the present terrorism has it's roots in the poverty, disaffection, non inclusion of marginalized youth. Part of the rise of ISIL/DAESH


is due to centuries old conflicts within the Middle East, but hegemonic practices by world powers bear a large responsibility also. Until we are willing and able to take responsibility for our poor foreign policy, this situation will repeat. As for quarantine,
my Jewish relatives cringe at the thought.


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## Warrigal (Nov 20, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Just saw this on FB...  funny
> 
> View attachment 24109



Very funny, and yet not funny.
Is that a paradox or a conundrum?


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Hmmm. Perhaps both Warri? It is, and it is not. Ommmmmm.


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## BobF (Nov 20, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. I disagree. Much horror has been committed in the name of Jesus and Yahweh. Other religions also. Much of the present terrorism has it's roots in the poverty, disaffection, non inclusion of marginalized youth. Part of the rise of ISIL/DAESH
> 
> 
> is due to centuries old conflicts within the Middle East, but hegemonic practices by world powers bear a large responsibility also. Until we are willing and able to take responsibility for our poor foreign policy, this situation will repeat. As for quarantine,
> my Jewish relatives cringe at the thought.



And the Jewish nation is one of the most willing to attack groups like Isis and protect their own folks.    Much better than the way the US has gone in recent years.


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## BobF (Nov 20, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Very funny, and yet not funny.
> Is that a paradox or a conundrum?



Warrigal, where did you dig up such a misguided poster as that.   The people of the US are not afraid of our military for good reasons.   One is that they are not intending to take our arms and the government can not order them to do so.

We are not afraid of the refugees either.   So both of those comments are out right lies.    We are afraid to allow killers slip in with the refugees too quickly.    The action is to slow down the admissions a bit to allow better screening to happen.   For sure the single women with children will be among the first allowed in.   The younger single men will be among those heavily screened before entry.   This is smart work and it is all within out legal rights per the constitution.  

I thought you would be smarter than to believe this poster to be true.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

This behaviour by Israel has little to do with the Jewish religion, and everything to do with the rise of rightwing Zionism. Do you remember when they attacked an American ship? I refuse to praise a government that sanctions the torture of children.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Wow, disagreement equals lack of intelligence? Who knew? Lol.  Seriously, we all have the right to disagree without having our intelligence questioned. In Warri's case, such a suggestion falls apart.


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## Warrigal (Nov 20, 2015)

BobF said:


> Warrigal, where did you dig up such a misguided poster as that.   The people of the US are not afraid of our military for good reasons.   One is that they are not intending to take our arms and the government can not order them to do so.
> 
> We are not afraid of the refugees either.   So both of those comments are out right lies.    We are afraid to allow killers slip in with the refugees too quickly.    The action is to slow down the admissions a bit to allow better screening to happen.   For sure the single women with children will be among the first allowed in.   The younger single men will be among those heavily screened before entry.   This is smart work and it is all within out legal rights per the constitution.
> 
> I thought you would be smarter than to believe this poster to be true.



First, I wasn't the one who found that meme. It was QuickSilver.

Second, I have seen plenty of posts and links that indicate there is a substantial fraction of the US public who do think that the government is planning to use the military to disarm them and a sizeable number of these stand ready to defy the might of the US government by force of (small) arms. We did see an actual  stand off when cattle were ordered to be removed from a national park, although in the end no shots were exchanged.

That's why I found the meme funny in the ironic sense.
But at another level it is not funny at all, hence my reference to paradox.


----------



## Hap (Nov 20, 2015)

> Shalimar;372423]Hmmm. I disagree. Much horror has been committed in the name of Jesus and Yahweh. Other religions also. Much of the present terrorism has it's roots in the poverty, disaffection, non inclusion of marginalized youth. Part of the rise of ISIL/DAESH
> 
> 
> is due to centuries old conflicts within the Middle East, but hegemonic practices by world powers bear a large responsibility also. Until we are willing and able to take responsibility for our poor foreign policy, this situation will repeat. As for quarantine,
> my Jewish relatives cringe at the thought.



I don't disagree with what you said Shalimar.  However, if I understand the discussion thread it deals with resolving the current Syrian refugee crisis not placing blame for how this whole mess started or who's responsible.  That's for the historians to figure out if the world survives the current crises.  Having the Pope apologize for the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition is not going to mean much to radical Islam causing them to cease the war from which the refugees are fleeing.  The problem at question here does not involve making up for centuries of internal and external strife in the Arab world.  Simply put, it involves not having Jihad John's replacement making videos of decapitating children with a K-Bar on Saturday mornings at the mall in Des Moines.  The initial step is containment.  Allowing ISIS unfettered access to the world by posing as something they are not (radicals in victimized Muslim's clothing) is hardly a new idea if you will remember the Trojan Horse trick.  Its an old one, but a very effective one.

I have friends who are Jewish living both here in the U.S. and in Israel.  Through my correspondence with them I have gathered that their attitude is the same as that of your Jewish relatives in that they too cringe at the thought of a Muslim quarantine.  After decades of terrorist attacks on the Israeli homeland, they would love to see all the Muslims migrate to Europe and the West and away from Israel's borders.  Some have more dramatic ideas on how to resolve the spread of radical Islam's terrorism, but they should probably not be discussed here.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Hmm.,I differentiate between Jew and Zionist, not necessarily the same thing. Certainly Israel's hands are not clean regarding it's treatment of Muslims. War crimes are not acceptable on either side. Terror tactics abound on both sides. Of course aisraelis 

want to oust Muslims. They want their land etc. Illegal settlements are there for a reason. By all means attempt to fight DAESH, but not through targeting planned vetted refugees. That way lies Islamophobia, xenophobia, isolationism. This hysteria 

that I see all over the media terrifies me 

far more than terrorism. I would like to thank you however, for your courteous style of debate. It is a pleasure to joust with you? I shall sharpen my lance, and ready my horse for our next bout. Salut!


----------



## Hap (Nov 20, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm.,I differentiate between Jew and Zionist, not necessarily the same thing. Certainly Israel's hands are not clean regarding it's treatment of Muslims. War crimes are not acceptable on either side. Terror tactics abound on both sides. Of course aisraelis
> 
> want to oust Muslims. They want their land etc. Illegal settlements are there for a reason. By all means attempt to fight DAESH, but not through targeting planned vetted refugees. That way lies Islamophobia, xenophobia, isolationism. This hysteria
> 
> ...



I look forward to it, Sir.  You are a fine and worthy opponent.  I'd like to add that during the evening I noted that you were engaged (admirably) in several debates at once.  You remind me of a chess master who can play several opponents simultaneously.  I'm impressed.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Thank you Hap. I am flattered indeed by your kind remarks. One thing though, I am a woman. Lolololol. In the 21st. Century we get to be knights also. En garde mon ami, je suis pret! Lolololol.


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## Hap (Nov 20, 2015)

My apologies.  I didn't read your profile.  I'm even more impressed.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

No apologies necessary. But I am curious as to why you are even more impressed. Some of us Wimmin can walk and chew gum at the same time. The more elevated have even outgrown drinking from the toilet with the cats.......


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## Hap (Nov 20, 2015)

I should have explained that I read your profile and  I'm even more impressed.  I didn't mean to come across as condescending.


----------



## AZ Jim (Nov 20, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> How many should the USA and Canada take in?  Or should we NOT?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/04/syrian-refugee-crisis-why-has-it-become-so-bad
> 
> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/syria-war-assad-starvation-hunger


What's really sick is the fishermen in the background fishing.  That poor little dead baby lies there and they fish?


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Tous unis contre la haine. We all are united against hate.


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## Shalimar (Nov 20, 2015)

Hap, no worries. I am just playing. Canadianyr humour----I don't feel patronised in the least.


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## IKE (Nov 21, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> No apologies necessary. But I am curious as to why you are even more impressed. Some of us Wimmin can walk and chew gum at the same time. The more elevated have even outgrown drinking from the toilet with the cats.......



I got a wake up laff out of this.....thanks.


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## Shalimar (Nov 21, 2015)

You are most welcome Ike, I was laughing when I wrote it! Lol.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 21, 2015)

You will find that at OUR ages... we are more than a little adept at pointing out male faux pas..  It comes with years of experience.


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## IKE (Nov 21, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You will find that at OUR ages... we are more than a little adept at pointing out male faux pas..  It comes with years of experience.



Sounds like you've been hanging out with the wrong fellas QS.......some men "Especially Me" have never had a faux pas to be pointed out.

IKE <--------anxiously awaiting a WHATEVER.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 21, 2015)

Funny...  I count several in this thread... hahahahaha..  No big deal... we are big girls... just expect it pointed out...


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## Shalimar (Nov 21, 2015)

Ike, how do you stand it? The weight of your halo must be crushing.......


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## Ameriscot (Nov 21, 2015)

http://reverbpress.com/news/international/hypocrisy-refusing-syrian-refugees/


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## QuickSilver (Nov 21, 2015)

Great link Annie.... I completely agree..


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## Ameriscot (Nov 21, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Great link Annie.... I completely agree..



Good one, eh?  Stumbled across it on FB.


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## Warrigal (Nov 21, 2015)

Ameriscot, I don't know what to say. Those six points are breathtakingly powerful.
6, 4 and 3 also apply to Australians who argue against accepting refugees.
The others are more uniquely American.
Thank you for posting them.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 21, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Ameriscot, I don't know what to say. Those six points are breathtakingly powerful.
> 6, 4 and 3 also apply to Australians who argue against accepting refugees.
> The others are more uniquely American.
> Thank you for posting them.



You're welcome.


----------



## Ameriscot (Nov 21, 2015)

Here are some interesting facts about Muslims:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/11/20/twenty-facts-about-muslims-for-right-wing-dummies/


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## QuickSilver (Nov 21, 2015)

Another great find Annie.. Thanks


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## Ameriscot (Nov 21, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Another great find Annie.. Thanks



I get a lot of liberal feeds on FB and friends post interesting links.


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## BobF (Nov 21, 2015)

That link presented above is another of these twisted stories about the US and our people.   

Start at the beginning as the rest is just pure BS.   As I know what is going on is that we have not just said no to all the Syrians.    We have said no to Obama's rush up to get them here.   We are asking for these folks to get the same screening that others from where ever get, including the thousands that have slipped into the US over the Mexican border.   We are asking for time to do these checks on these folks as we do for all folks.   They are not being sent back to where they came from.   

Just a lot of lies about the US.   I believe too, that it is not just the Republicans as some try to make it be.   It would be nice if some folks on this forum would quite all this nonsense and get facts first then post your problems.   Carrying on with these junk news article's as if they really mean something factual.

It is  not just me either as I have read others posts that also say the official road for the US is not what is implied in too many places.


----------



## QuickSilver (Nov 21, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I get a lot of liberal feeds on FB and friends post interesting links.



Yes...So do I...  Very interesting.. and truthful.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 21, 2015)

This is something I found on Facebook



> Muslims Against ISIS
> Sometimes lovely and well meaning friends on the page tell us:
> 
> You Muslims don't need to speak out against Isis. You don't need to defend yourselves!
> ...



It is the first time that I have seem a Muslim speaking out about speaking out against ISIS and terrorism. I hope this encourages others to publically condemn ISIS, not because we demand it, but because in doing so they are faithfully following their religion .


----------



## BobF (Nov 21, 2015)

This type of message should be picked up by our press agencies and broadcast all over the world.   

Just being published as a Hadith does not get good publicity or speaking about the Hadith does not get good publicity.   Those that can and believe should make sure it gets broadcast for us non believers to hear and for the Muslims to be refreshed to the guidelines of the Hadith.


----------



## Fern (Nov 21, 2015)

I read the link, there is no comparison to these times & the time of Jesus. In fact I find it ludicrous.
 Whether one is Christian or otherwise, not wanting to risk yourself  and/or your country to the barbaric practices of the muslim extremists  is commonsense, unless one wants to be a martyr. 
The refugees  fleeing their country is a very sorry sight, however they or anyone else  cannot guarantee there is no extremists amongst them, and after the  Paris attack and the many arrests being made, any qualms about allowing  them in, is totally understandable.
The 'true' refugees themselves should be making it loud & clear to their Muslim brothers they don't condone their barbaric practices, but not a squeak from them, probably for obvious reasons, most want to keep their head.


----------



## Misty (Nov 22, 2015)

In our newspaper today, there is a fact check area about terrorist  fears. It states about Obama complaining about Republicans and stating  that "Apparently they are scared of widow's and orphans coming into the  United States. The Facts: Obama's mocking of Republicans worried about  terrorists slipping into to the U.S. with authentic refugees masks  concerns that were expressed by his own administration about that very  potential before the Paris attacks.

Justice Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, told a security  conference in September: "As refugee's descend on Europe, one of the  obvious issues that we worry about, and in turn as we bring refugees  into this country, is exactly what's in their background? We don't put  it past the likes of ISIS to infiltrate operatives among those refugees.  Clapper added : That is a huge concern of ours."


----------



## SeaBreeze (Nov 22, 2015)

What it's like to be a Syrian refugee in the United States, more here.








_Ghussoun al Hasan, a Syrian refugee, sits at home with her daughter in Michigan._
​
Once al Hasan decided to stay in the United States, she began the lengthy, exhausting process of applying for asylum. The system required her to go before an immigration officer, where she was forced to relive the painful reasons for her flight from Syria in order to prove that she cannot return home.

This included presenting the judge with images of her dead brother, as well as video evidence of his brutal killing. Because his death was covered by news outlets such as Al Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, she was able to offer evidence of his murder, as well as additional clips posted to YouTube by Syrian protesters.

“I brought everything,” she said. “I had to give them proof and couldn’t lie. I told [them] what happened to me…They asked about my family, where I lived in Turkey, information on my parents — everything, all the details.”

The entire process took roughly three and a half months, but eventually a judge in Michigan granted her asylum status and a green card, making her a permanent resident in the U.S.
“Thank God I have … a green card,” she said.

Yet for all the difficultly it entailed, al Hasan’s asylum experience still pales in comparison to themeticulous immigration system set up for most refugees seeking entry into the U.S. That process usually takes 18-24 months, and mandates that applicants endure a 21-step screening procedurethat includes security checks, interviews, background investigations, and the collection of biometric data. In fact, it is arguably the most difficult way to enter the United States legally.

*Welcomed by Americans, but not American politicians*

An ornate green Quran hung above al Hasan as she spoke, resting on a mantle beneath a large plaque with an Arabic inscription. Al Hasan, like most Syrians, is Muslim, but her husband — who is back in Damascus and who she says is no longer in the picture — is Christian, both maintaining their respective faiths.

The Muslim faith of al Hasan of millions of other refugees has become a flashpoint in the United States, where anti-Islam sentiment is on the rise. Al Hasan and her family live in Dearborn, Michigan, one of the highest concentrations of Muslim Americans in the country.

 The town is often a target for anti-Islam activists, many of whom claim that the community is a hotbed for extremists or is home to “no-go zones” where religious police enforce harsh interpretations of sharia law — none of which is true. Some have even threatened to attack the town to “send a signal to ISIS,” even though three Dearborn residents were themselves killed in the recent ISIS-affiliated bombing in Beirut, Lebanon.

Maybe they don’t know that Syrians aren’t like that. They aren’t terrorists. They’re educated and civilized.In addition, the state’s governor, Rick Snyder (R), is one of many asking the federal government to keep Syrian refugees from settling in the U.S. 

Although touting himself as “the most pro-immigration governor in the country,” Snyder, like other governors, implicitly linked ISIS with the Syrian refugee crisis on Friday, telling NPR that he wants the Obama administration to “hit the pause button” on accepting Syrian refugees because of the recent ISIS-affiliated terrorist attacks in Beirut, Paris, and Egypt. (When asked to name a specific problem he had with the current refugee vetting process, Snyder couldn’t name one.)

Other politicians are more explicit about connecting Islamophobia to those fleeing Syria. Republican presidential candidates Donald Trump and Marco Rubio both agreed that the U.S. should turn away Syrian refugees for now, and both bandied about the possibility of closing mosques in the wake of the Paris attacks. 

Meanwhile, the House of Representatives passed a bill on Thursday that could severely limit the acceptance of people fleeing from Syria and Iraq.
Asked what she thought of such actions, al Hasan argued American politicians were simply uninformed.

“My opinion is maybe they don’t know that Syrians aren’t like that,” she said. “They aren’t terrorists. They’re educated and civilized.”
Still, she expressed frustration with those who ignore the fact that the primary victims of groups such as ISIS are Syrians themselves.

“We are affected even more than the West and America,” she said. “Concerning Syria and what’s happened with the terrorists in Syria, the Syrians are more harmed than anyone else.”

She also dismissed claims that ISIS is somehow representative of Islam.
“I’m Muslim, [and] Islam is not like that,” she said. “We’re not killers, we’re friendly and our religion doesn’t say this. We — Muslims — are the most affected by this.”

Go back to Syria? No…not even if the war ends. It took my whole life.“Daesh, they corrupt our religion,” she added, using the derogatory name for the group.
Al Hasan made a distinction between American politicians and everyday Americans, however. Asked how she was received after coming to the United States, she told the story of a mother who approached her and asked her to explain to her son why she wears a headscarf.

“The person was very friendly,” she said, smiling. “We laughed and I said ‘My religion is Islam.’ She asked, ‘Do you all wear it?’ And I said ‘No, not all — there are many Muslims here, but they are friendly.’”

Al Hasan explained that her new dream is to stay in the United States and become a full-fledged citizen, to build a new life for her family here in America. When asked if she would ever wish to return to Syria, she was unequivocal.

“Go back to Syria? No,” she said firmly, her eyes narrowing with a mixture of anger and sadness. She glanced again at her daughter. “No, not even if the war ends. It took my whole life, my parents…No, I don’t think I’ll go back.”


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## Shalimar (Nov 22, 2015)

Canada will only accept women, children and families, not single men.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 30, 2015)

More likely to be killed by a right-wing extremist than a muslim terrorist here in America.  More here. 


Friday afternoon, one week after elected officials all over the country tried to block Syrian refugees from entering their states in an apparent effort to fight terrorism, a white man in Colorado committed what appears to be an act of terrorism in a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Though the details of Robert Lewis Dear’s motives for killing three people in the clinic and injuring nine others are still being revealed, Dear reportedly told law enforcement “no more baby parts,” an apparent reference to heavily edited videos produced by the Center for Medical Progress, which numerous politicians have cited to falsely claim that Planned Parenthood sells “aborted baby parts.”

 Dear’s actions, in other words, appear to be an act of politically motivated terrorism directed against an institution widely reviled by conservatives.

Though terrorism perpetrated by Muslims receives a disproportionate amount of attention from politicians and reporters, the reality is that right-wing extremists pose a much greater threat to people in the United States than terrorists connected to ISIS or similar organizations.

 As UNC Professor Charles Kurzman and Duke Professor David Schanzer explained last June in the New York Times, Islam-inspired terror attacks “accounted for 50 fatalities over the past 13 and a half years.”

 Meanwhile, “right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities.”

Kurzman and Schanzer’s methodology, moreover, may underestimate the degree to which domestic terrorists in the United States are motivated by right-wing views. As they describe the term in their New York Times piece, the term “right-wing extremist” primarily encompasses anti-government extremists such as members of the sovereign citizen movement, although it also includes racist right-wing groups such as neo-Nazis.

 Thus, it is not yet clear whether Dear, who made anti-abortion remarks but also reportedly referenced President Obama, was motivated in part by the kind of anti-government views that are the focus of Kurzman and Schanzer’s inquiry.

Kurzman and Schanzer also surveyed hundreds of law enforcement agencies regarding their assessment of various threats. Of the 382 agencies they spoke with, “74 percent reported anti-government extremism as one of the top three terrorist threats in their jurisdiction,” while only “39 percent listed extremism connected with Al Qaeda or like-minded terrorist organizations.”

Meanwhile, the percentage of refugees that are connected to terrorist plots is vanishingly small.


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## Shalimar (Nov 30, 2015)

SB, why do you think this misperception around the level of danger exists?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 30, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> SB, why do you think this misperception around the level of danger exists?




If I may take a crack at it..   It exists because one political party is fear mongering in a attempt to portray themselves as stronger on defense and more able to "keep America safe" from Radical Islam,  than the other political party.   They are fueling fear on purpose... to get votes in hopes of being elected.  

Conversely, they are downplaying the level of fear about right wing extremists and the easy access to guns at the request of the NRA and the fact that many sympathize with the views of these people.


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## BobF (Nov 30, 2015)

I will disagree with that attempt to define the problem.    For one, it is a Democrat Congressperson, Dianne Feinstein, that wants tighter control on the immigration of folks.  I am sure the Republicans will agree with that decision.

The second part is that it is part of our Constitution and until there is enough interest in changing our Constitution the ability and right to own a gun will remain.   Even our Democrat leader Harry Reid is a gun lover as well as other Democrats.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 30, 2015)

Why Don’t We Know Much About Right-Wing Terrorists? Conservatives Fired The Guy Studying Them 

JAMESON PARKER 
AddictingInfo, JUNE 18, 2015 4:41 PM 

After a mass shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, left nine people dead and a right-wing white supremacist arrested, the country once again faces the uneasy question of just how many so-called “home-grown” terrorists are out there – heavily armed, ideologically driven, and violent. 

It’s a good question, but it may be tough to answer because for reasons that are astoundingly dimwitted, the Department of Homeland Security pushed out the guy who was in charge of watching them, and dismantled his team all the way back in 2009. 

The beleaguered hero of this story is Daryl Johnson, a top government counterterrorism analyst working at Homeland Security who spent six years with the agency amassing a wealth of data on far-right extremist groups that posed various degrees of threat to citizens in the United States. In 2009, in the months after President Obama assumed office, he watched as these groups veered even further right, and began to fear that America’s first African-American president could be the catalyst of a major uptick in hate crimes and anti-government attacks. 

In a landmark report released just months into Obama’s term, and now looks downright clairvoyant, Johnson made the case that radical Islam is only a small piece of the terrorism pie: 

“Do not overlook other types of terrorist groups,” the report warned, noting that five purely domestic groups had considered using weapons of mass destruction in that period. Similar warnings have been issued by the two principal non-government groups that track domestic terrorism: the New York-based Anti-Defamation League and the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center. 

An annual tally by the latter group of what it calls “Terror From the Right” listed 13 major incidents and arrests last year, nearly double the annual number in previous years; the group also reported the number of hate groups had topped 1,000 in 2010, for the first time in at least two decades. ​
*In response to that report, Johnson was destroyed. It wasn’t his integrity or claims that got him in trouble, his facts were solid. Instead, it was the inconvenient truth that much of the threat comes from right-wing conservatives, and even more awkwardly, radical right-wing conservatives who say and think a lot of the same things mainstream right-wing conservatives say and think. 


CONTINUED w/links... 

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/0...ts-conservatives-fired-the-guy-studying-them/ 
*


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## Jackie22 (Nov 30, 2015)

[h=3]Homeland Security Department curtails home-grown terror analysis[/h]



By R. Jeffrey Smith 
Washington Post, June 7, 2011 

The Department of Homeland Security has stepped back for the past two years from conducting its own intelligence and analysis of home-grown extremism, according to current and former department officials, even though law enforcement and civil rights experts have warned of rising extremist threats. 

The department has cut the number of personnel studying domestic terrorism unrelated to Islam, canceled numerous state and local law enforcement briefings, and held up dissemination of nearly a dozen reports on extremist groups, the officials and others said. 

The decision to reduce the department’s role was provoked by conservative criticism of an intelligence report on “Rightwing Extremism” issued four months into the Obama administration, the officials said. The report warned that the poor economy and Obama’s election could stir “violent radicalization,” but it was pilloried as an attack on conservative ideologies, including opponents of abortion and immigration. 

In the two years since, the officials said, the analytical unit that produced that report has been effectively eviscerated. Much of its work — including a digest of domestic terror incidents and the distribution of definitions for terms such as “white supremacist” and “Christian Identity” — has been blocked. 

Multiple current and former law enforcement officials who have regularly viewed DHS analyses said the department had not reported in depth on any domestic extremist groups since 2009. 

“Strategic bulletins have been minimal, since that incident,” said Mike Sena, an intelligence official in California who presides over the National Fusion Center Association, a group of 72 federally chartered institutions in which state, local and federal officials share sensitive information. “Having analytical staff, to educate line officers on the extremists, is critical.…This is definitely one area” where more effort is warranted by DHS. 

CONTINUED... 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/homeland-security-department-curtails-home-grown-terror-


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## Jackie22 (Nov 30, 2015)

rom http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/08/07/645421/right-wing-extremism/ 

“Republicans Blasted Obama Administration For Warning About Right-Wing Domestic Terrorism BY ANNIE-ROSE STRASSER, AUGUST 7, 2012 “The gunman in the shooting at a Sikh temple over the weekend has been labeled a potential domestic terrorist — defined as one who incites politically-motivated violence against his or her own country. In Wade Michael Page’s case, that political motivation was likely white supremacy, a growing problem in the United States. But when, in 2009, the Department of Homeland Security reported that white supremacy is the US’s biggest threat for domestic terror, it was met with harsh criticism. Conservatives blasted the department for defining terror threats too broadly, instead of focusing on potential Islamic terrorists.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 16, 2015)

Paris terrorist suspects found in REFUGEE center in Austria.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-shooting-austria-idUSKBN0TZ1QP20151216

Unfortunately for legitimate refugees who want actually immigrate and assimilate mass migrations  have led to what we're seeing now. This is why controlled immigration is needed in any country.


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## Shalimar (Dec 16, 2015)

We have controlled immigration, but still allow vetted Syrian women, children, and families into Canada.


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## Debby (Dec 16, 2015)

Some good news from the Syrian front for a change I think.  I was just reading that after a meeting in Moscow, Putin and Kerry have come to an agreement that the requirement that Assad leave his office is no longer an issue.  And that whether he goes or stays must be decided by the people of Syria! Further, Joe Biden called the Turkish Prime Minister and told him that the Turkish military that invaded Iraq must get out and that no one (not even Turkey) could enter another country without being asked.  


And if it's no longer necessary to get Assad out....then I'd think that it's no longer necessary to support the fighters that have been fighting against the government.  Maybe if there aren't multiple goals going on in Syria, then the focus can be shifted entirely to ISIS.  And it seems to me that in that case, it should become easier to deal with those monstrous people.   What do you think?  Do you think maybe in a year, many Syrian people will be able to return home?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...biden-calls-turkey-withdraw-its-troops-turkey

Keep your fingers crossed or if you're the praying sort..........


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## WhatInThe (Dec 17, 2015)

not multiple goals. Exactly. Common goals equal a reformation of an actual nation state and not a cluster of religous & political factions.


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## Debby (Dec 18, 2015)

I'm more inclined to think 'multiple goals' because the USA wants to get Assad out (so they've been funding and training the guys fighting against Assad and are thus supporting a coupe) as well as a bit (from what I've been reading) of bombing against ISIS and including the efforts of the other countries.

Russia has taken the perspective that if it looks like a terrorist (ISIS or ?) they get bombed and Russia is insisting that only the Syrian people can vote out Assad.  Multiple goals wouldn't you say with some points of convergence but other areas of difference.


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