# Ever have tipping remorse?



## Victor (Jan 2, 2021)

Ever tip too much and regretted it later, or not tip enough, and sorry?
I am usually an average tipper, but when I get a very personal service
such as massage, I am so grateful, I overtip!  Then I feel obliged to tip
the same if I return--and often the same lady is not there.


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## Pinky (Jan 2, 2021)

I've so far not had tipper's remorse .. knock wood. If I were dissatisfied with service, I would tip the going 15%, but generally tip 20% (or more, if I'm extremely satisfied with the service).


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

The only remorse I feel is opening my purse to pay for an already overpriced meal, knowing I have to come up with an additional 15% - 20% more for a tip, hence why dear husband and I never go out to eat.

Two occasions are etched in my mind as far as times where we left no tip, because of such poor service.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 2, 2021)

The only people I tip are taxi drivers and then only when they have been extra polite or helpful. I am a generous tipper when it's justified.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 2, 2021)

Over tipping can create awkward situations and change the balance in a relationship but I still do it when I feel that it's important to me.

The last time was at the local Supercuts for a basic haircut that came to around $18.00 with tax.  I added a $20.00 dollar tip to the bill in an effort to show my appreciation and support for the young woman's efforts/struggle during the pandemic.


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## applecruncher (Jan 2, 2021)

Pinky said:


> I've so far not had tipper's remorse .. knock wood. If I were dissatisfied with service, I would tip the going 15%, but generally tip 20% (or more, if I'm extremely satisfied with the service).


If you're dissatisfied, why tip 15%?


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## Jules (Jan 2, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The last time was at the local Supercuts for a basic haircut that came to around $18.00 with tax. I added a $20.00 dollar tip to the bill in an effort to show my appreciation and support for the young woman's efforts/struggle during the pandemic.



You and DH must have been talking.  He’s been giving the barber lots extra since the pandemic.  He never has the same man, just feels for them.


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## Pinky (Jan 2, 2021)

applecruncher said:


> If you're dissatisfied, why tip 15%?


Because the employee still served us, and they rely on tips. I know, I'm just a softie. 

There was one time, eons ago, that I left a 1cent tip .. before I had a conscience.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

One thing I have been curious about is...who decides what the "norm" tipping percentage is?

Did somebody just start tipping at 15% and others around that person started doing likewise so that the practice spread until it was considered "the norm"?  Did somebody decree that instead of 10% thou shalt tip 15%?  Who is responsible for pushing the percentage ever upward?

So we don't waste space on stating the obvious, I understand that people in certain jobs depend on tips to make up for meager wages, and I respect that by tipping appropriately.  What I don't understand is contained in the questions I am asking.

Like others in this thread, I have been tipping higher than "the norm" due to these people (barbers, food servers) having to work at customer-facing jobs during the COVID-19 era, so my questions above are of a more curious nature rather than a complaint against tipping.  It seems to me that fashions and what is acceptable for tipping, these are somehow mandated and I don't know who decides these things (how much to tip, what colors are "in" this year or how wide one's tie should be, etc.) for the rest of us.

Tony


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> One thing I have been curious about is...who decides what the "norm" tipping percentage is?
> 
> Did somebody just start tipping at 15% and others around that person started doing likewise so that the practice spread until it was considered "the norm"?  Did somebody decree that instead of 10% thou shalt tip 15%?  Who is responsible for pushing the percentage ever upward?
> 
> ...


You know what chaps by bottom to no end, Tony?

Picking up a takeout order and using the card reader to pay, and being prompted through the card reader for a tip.

I don't think so!


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> One thing I have been curious about is...who decides what the "norm" tipping percentage is?
> 
> Did somebody just start tipping at 15% and others around that person started doing likewise so that the practice spread until it was considered "the norm"?  Did somebody decree that instead of 10% thou shalt tip 15%?  Who is responsible for pushing the percentage ever upward?
> 
> ...


Here in Canada most card readers start at 15% for a tip amount, which in the past dear husband and I always pass on so we can manually enter a tip amount in keeping with _our affordability_, not that of some pre-set, self-serving amount.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Here in Canada most card readers start at 15% for a tip amount, which in the past dear husband and I always pass on so we can manually enter a tip amount in keeping with _our affordability_, not that of some pre-set, self-serving amount.


Most of us can probably remember when a 10% tip was "the norm".  Who set that, and then who set "the norm" to 15%?

In other words, who is it that makes these kinds of decisions for us, whether what styles of clothing or how much to tip?

I have always ignored styles, but have noticed that when shopping for clothes, whatever is "in" pretty much dictates what will be commonly available.  A typical conversation in a clothing store might go something like this:

Customer: Do you have any shirts with stripes?
Sales person: No, that is not the current style.

As for tipping, as you have mentioned, automated pay processes seem to have their own set tipping amounts.  However, well before that, the tipping "norm" seems to have been set by somebody and followed by everybody (or at least enough people for it to become considered "the norm").  Where do these things originate (i.e. who is responsible for setting these trends)?

Who is the "man behind the curtain"?  Does anybody know, or do we all just follow like sheep?

Tony


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## Chet (Jan 2, 2021)

While vacationing at Niagara Falls, the restaurant menu's prices were in Canadian dollars but American dollars were accepted, so that's what I paid in when the waitress brought the bill. Her face lit up when I told her to keep the change as a tip. I did not know the exchange rate, so it must have come out quite well in her favor.


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## Robert59 (Jan 2, 2021)

Me and my girlfriend give a 5.00 tip when we go to a older women waiter's only get like 2.13 minimum wage from the restaurant.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 2, 2021)

Victor said:


> Ever tip too much and regretted it later, or not tip enough, and sorry?
> I am usually an average tipper, but when I get a very personal service
> such as massage, I am so grateful, I overtip!  Then I feel obliged to tip
> the same if I return--and often the same lady is not there.


Even if this massage comes free with the meal, I'm tipping!


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## Nathan (Jan 2, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Here in Canada most card readers start at 15% for a tip amount, which in the past dear husband and I always pass on so we can manually enter a tip amount in keeping with _our affordability_, not that of some pre-set, self-serving amount.


I prefer to tip in cash so that the food service worker actually receives the tip, rather than giving the boss an opportunity to skim the tips.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Most of us can probably remember when a 10% tip was "the norm".  Who set that, and then who set "the norm" to 15%?
> 
> In other words, who is it that makes these kinds of decisions for us, whether what styles of clothing or how much to tip?
> 
> ...


As always, many great points, Tony.

Tipping IMO should be based upon that of each patron. The end.

To be perfectly honest, I don't understand the whole tipping thing, I mean, table servers are paid an hourly wage, so... where does the tip come into effect, and why does it come into effect?

If the food is good, then it should be the chef or cook in the back getting the tip, no?

If I'm a nurse in a hospital, should I get tips from each bed-ridden patient I tend to, because I'm good at taking care of them?

If I were a janitor in a school, should students bring monies to school with them each day to tip me, because I keep the floors swept and the garbage cans emptied?

What is it with all of the tipping these days?


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As always, many great points, Tony.
> 
> Tipping IMO should be based upon that of each patron. The end.
> 
> ...


From what I understand, those who get tips are paid ridiculously low wages.  Apparently, there is some sort of loophole either in law or common practice that allows these folks to get less than minimum wage, and the tips are intended to make up for that.  In other words, the prices you see on the menu are not the REAL prices, since you have to pay a portion of the wait staff's wages directly to the wait staff.

As for nurses or other hospital staff, I suppose tipping would cause problems such as favoritism in which one patient (the big tipper) gets proper care and the others get whatever time is remaining divided among them.  As with law enforcement, I suppose tipping such people would be considered a form of bribery, rather than reward.

As long as I have been alive, service staff has always been tipped.  The guy who brings your suitcases up to your hotel room, the elevator operator (when those positions existed), the doorman, the valet, all these people have always been tipped along with wait staff in restaurants.

Tony


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## Don M. (Jan 2, 2021)

We generally follow the 15% rule.  If the food and service are very good, we add a bit...and conversely if the waitress is grouchy, or the food is marginal, we drop a bit.  Most "servers" are only paid minimum wage, so a couple of dollars for a tip makes a lot of difference for them.


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## debodun (Jan 2, 2021)

Tipping is not allowed in Japan. I guess they charge enough to make up for it.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Most of us can probably remember when a 10% tip was "the norm".  Who set that, and then who set "the norm" to 15%?
> 
> In other words, who is it that makes these kinds of decisions for us, whether what styles of clothing or how much to tip?
> 
> ...


I don't know who or what restaurant chain owner or CEO is behind it, but wait servers are paid at a lower wage scale, saving restaurants billions annually, and we pay the balance of their wages in the form of tips. I'm pretty certain it's that owner or CEO who sets the standard of how much is customary as the cost of living has gone up while the wait person's wage remains relatively stagnant.


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## MarciKS (Jan 2, 2021)

I can't always afford to tip. I usually order quite a bit of food though. If I have the money and the service has been worth it I will shoot for 15%. Usually it's 5% because I simply can't afford to tip everybody all the time. I don't have that kind of disposable income.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I don't know who or what restaurant chain owner or CEO is behind it, but wait servers are paid at a lower wage scale, saving restaurants billions annually, and we pay the balance of their wages in the form of tips. I'm pretty certain it's that owner or CEO who sets the standard of how much is customary as the cost of living has gone up while the wait person's wage remains relatively stagnant.


Yes, that is what I said in a post following the one you quoted:

*From what I understand, those who get tips are paid ridiculously low wages. Apparently, there is some sort of loophole either in law or common practice that allows these folks to get less than minimum wage, and the tips are intended to make up for that. In other words, the prices you see on the menu are not the REAL prices, since you have to pay a portion of the wait staff's wages directly to the wait staff.*

That is an interesting point about who sets the standard for tipping.  However, it seems to be much more universal than would be the reach of a CEO of even a chain of restaurants.

Tony


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## Murrmurr (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Yes, that is what I said in a post following the one you quoted:
> 
> *From what I understand, those who get tips are paid ridiculously low wages. Apparently, there is some sort of loophole either in law or common practice that allows these folks to get less than minimum wage, and the tips are intended to make up for that. In other words, the prices you see on the menu are not the REAL prices, since you have to pay a portion of the wait staff's wages directly to the wait staff.*
> 
> ...


Do you think it just caught on or that I'm probably incorrect?
I know tipping isn't done in the few places I've traveled to, England, South America, and Thailand, and they don't understand why we do it. Some of those places think tipping is rude.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Don M. said:


> We generally follow *the 15% rule. * If the food and service are very good, we add a bit...and conversely if the waitress is grouchy, or the food is marginal, we drop a bit.  Most "servers" are only paid minimum wage, so a couple of dollars for a tip makes a lot of difference for them.


This - "the 15% rule", is what I am asking about.  Where did it originate and how did it spread?

Tony


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## fmdog44 (Jan 2, 2021)

If restaurant service is bad so is my tip or lack of. The phrase "I work for tips" should mean exactly that. The last place I ate lunch at I left nothing and was tempted to leave a nickel. I tip generously when I am pleased with the person and their service. I figure the best  way to get rid of lousy servers is to not pay them.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> *If restaurant service is bad so is my tip or lack of.* The phrase "I work for tips" should mean exactly that. The last place I ate lunch at I left nothing and was tempted to leave a nickel. I tip generously when I am pleased with the person and their service. I figure the best  way to get rid of lousy servers is to not pay them.


Thank you for this, FM, my sentiment to a T.


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## debodun (Jan 2, 2021)

What galls me is take-out places that have a tip jar on the counter.  Sometimes I think they stuff it beforehand to make customers fell guilty if they don't put at least $5 in it. Just another way to squeeze more money out of people.


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## applecruncher (Jan 2, 2021)

It's not the responsibility customers to subsidize the low wages of underpaid employees.

I'm a good tipper when merited, but I never leave a 2 cent tip. Btw this forum has several threads where tipping is discussed at length.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 2, 2021)

applecruncher said:


> It's not the responsibility customers to subsidize the low wages of underpaid employees.


Exactly. That's been thrust upon us and it's as unfair a practice to wait staff as it is to us. They get taxed for their tips (at some restaurants it's easy to "cheat" at others it isn't bc the customer must tip using a card). Their employers should have to simply pay them a fair wage.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 2, 2021)

I don't eat out enough to make the cost of tipping an issue. I never tip a percentage of the meal. A waitress serving a $5 breakfast works just as hard as one serving a $50 dinner.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Do you think it just caught on or that I'm probably incorrect?
> I know tipping isn't done in the few places I've traveled to, England, South America, and Thailand, and they don't understand why we do it. Some of those places think tipping is rude.


I honestly don't know and I have had similar experiences traveling to those same locations.  Regarding rudeness, we do have to be careful because different cultures have different "rules" regarding what is, and isn't, rude. 

Tony


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Exactly. That's been thrust upon us and it's as unfair a practice to wait staff as it is to us. They get taxed for their tips (at some restaurants it's easy to "cheat" at others it isn't bc the customer must tip using a card). Their employers should have to simply pay them a fair wage.


Agreed. !

Tony


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## Pecos (Jan 2, 2021)

Life has been financially kind to me and my wife and we tend to be generous tippers, especially at this time of year and more especially because of the pandemic. 
I tip everyone: garbage collectors, fast food workers, you name it. The least I can do is try to help these people out.
Service has to be pretty bad for me to give a small tip.


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## HoneyNut (Jan 2, 2021)

Pinky said:


> There was one time, eons ago, that I left a 1cent tip .. before I had a conscience.


I got a 2 cent tip once when I worked at Pizza Hut as a teenager.  It was the only tip I got and I scrupulously listed it on the tip pay form I submitted at the end of the day.  Looking back I wonder what the manager thought.


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## Keesha (Jan 2, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> Over tipping can create awkward situations and change the balance in a relationship but I still do it when I feel that it's important to me.
> 
> The last time was at the local Supercuts for a basic haircut that came to around $18.00 with tax.  I added a $20.00 dollar tip to the bill in an effort to show my appreciation and support for the young woman's efforts/struggle during the pandemic.


I’m just like this and wouldn’t change a thing about it. I enjoy showing appreciation and gratitude ( yet not haircuts since I cut my own )


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Question asked by OP: 
Ever have tipping remorse?​Another completely different perspective on the meaning of this question could be that you have just enough to drink to get "tipsy" so that you feel as if you are constantly tipping over.  In this case, "tipping remorse" happens when you get stopped as you are driving home and you get a DUI/DWI charge.  Your insurance goes up, you need a lawyer, and your wallet takes a real hit, not to mention the hit on your driving record.  Since such data seems so intertwined these days, you could find your credit score dropping too.  What a mess! 

Tipping remorse?  You bet!  You swear you will never do it again.

English, what a wacky language...

Tony


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## jujube (Jan 2, 2021)

I've never understood the percentage-of-the-bill tipping. If I order a $4 bowl of chicken-noodle soup and my dining partner orders a $10 bowl of lobster bisque and the server brings them out on the same tray, why would my 20% tip be $.80 and hers be $2.00?  Has the server worked harder to carry the $10 soup?  

I tipped a server 5 cents once.  I would have tipped him a penny, but I didn't have any.  He actually wanted to argue with me about whether I had had a Coke when it was obvious that there was nothing on the table but a half-filled glass of water, which I had had to ask for twice.


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## applecruncher (Jan 3, 2021)

I know of workers who are underpaid, and I think at some point in our in lives most of us were underpaid. Did we expect tips? Were we allowed to keep a tip jar on our desk?


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## tbeltrans (Jan 3, 2021)

applecruncher said:


> I know of workers who are underpaid, and I think at some point in our in lives most of us were underpaid. Did we expect tips? Were we allowed to keep a tip jar on our desk?


Interesting question.  If I didn't like my life's circumstance, I worked all the harder to change them.  I went to college at night later in life, two classes per quarter while working full time during the day to get my degree and a better job.  Of course, you have to do your due diligence to determine what degree to go for so you end up where you want to be.  With a degree in Computer Science, I am sure I fared better than I would with a degree in philosophy in terms of being able to support my wife with all her medical expenses and save for retirement.  I feel very fortunate to have had the drive and interest to accomplish that because it was a life-changing decision for the better.

However, I can't say that everybody is in a position to do something like that.  We all have different life circumstances and can't judge another's circumstances by our own.  What I do know is that, at least during my lifetime, wait staff, those who carry our bags, etc., have always been tipped.  I don't know who started that practice, nor who sets the expected tip amount as I have been asking at various points in this thread.

Tony


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## Pappy (Jan 3, 2021)

Just before Christmas, I tipped my lawn mower kid $10. Since then, he hasn’t shown up. Now I find out he’s not mowing any longer. I have hired my neighbor who has a lawn mowing business, at a higher cost I might add.
Wish he had told me before I tipped him...


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## Victor (Jan 3, 2021)

Tipping is not a moral obligation. I mean it is not an ethical issue by which you are a good or bad person I wrote a article on it

I agree that the public should not be responsible for a workers wage. Even if they are it does not follow that YOU personally are. If you are then in a sense you are working for the employer by paying her wage!  Workers feel entitled to tips like they are doing you a favor
Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??


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## Pinky (Jan 3, 2021)

debodun said:


> Tipping is not allowed in Japan. I guess they charge enough to make up for it.


There was no tipping in Australia as well. It felt very odd to me. I _did _tip one time at my hairdresser's, because I was so thrilled to have found someone who did exactly what I'd asked for. They were surprised, and perhaps a bit uncomfortable, so I didn't do it again.


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## Knight (Jan 3, 2021)

from tbeltrans

Quote
"Most of us can probably remember when a 10% tip was "the norm". Who set that, and then who set "the norm" to 15%?"


To the IRS, tips are taxable income just like wages. If you earn tips, you're responsible for paying income, Social Security and Medicare tax on the tip money you receive.

What percentage are tips taxed at?
8%
Your employer will report your tip income on your W-2, Box 7 (Social Security tips). The law assumes an average tip rate of 8%, and it expects employees to report tips at least 8% of the gross food and drink sales. (The tip rate might be a lower agreed-upon rate.) The reported tip income might be less than 8%. 

Reporting Taxes on Tip Income | H&R Block

Just as everything else the cost of living affects service jobs as time passes.

8% might not seem like a lot to a high wage earner but to those that apply for & get what they can get for a wage 8% is significant. Note that the deduction is for Social Security and Medicare. Then think about the millions that rely on Social Security and Medicare in their senior years.

The fact that not everyone can get a high paying job is what I'm posting about. Right now the demand for $15.00 an hour wage is costing businesses to go out of business.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 3, 2021)

Victor said:


> Tipping is not a moral obligation. I mean it is not an ethical issue by which you are a good or bad person I wrote a article on it
> 
> I agree that the public should not be responsible for a workers wage. Even if they are it does not follow that YOU personally are. If you are then in a sense you are working for the employer by paying her wage!  Workers feel entitled to tips like they are doing you a favor
> *Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??*


I would say that's a question that only you can answer.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 3, 2021)

Victor said:


> Tipping is not a moral obligation. I mean it is not an ethical issue by which you are a good or bad person I wrote a article on it
> 
> I agree that the public should not be responsible for a workers wage. Even if they are it does not follow that YOU personally are. If you are then in a sense you are working for the employer by paying her wage!  Workers feel entitled to tips like they are doing you a favor
> *Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??*


Sounds like the making of a good riddle!


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## Murrmurr (Jan 3, 2021)

Victor said:


> Tipping is not a moral obligation. I mean it is not an ethical issue by which you are a good or bad person I wrote a article on it
> 
> I agree that the public should not be responsible for a workers wage. Even if they are it does not follow that YOU personally are. If you are then in a sense you are working for the employer by paying her wage!  Workers feel entitled to tips like they are doing you a favor
> Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??


Seems everyone is afraid to ask. Do tell.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 3, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Seems everyone is afraid to ask. Do tell.


Me on the other-hand, Mur... I was afraid to answer.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 3, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Me on the other-hand, Mur... I was afraid to answer.


I have one I was gonna throw out there but I don't like that "delete" experience.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 3, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I have one I was gonna throw out there but I don't like that "delete" experience.


I have a good answer, too, Mur, but I want to preserve the lady in me.


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## Murrmurr (Jan 3, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I have a good answer, too, Mur, but I want to preserve the lady in me.


Wise decision.


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## MarciKS (Jan 3, 2021)

I'd say it but if I do the thread will get locked and I'll get scolded by the babysitter.


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## Knight (Jan 3, 2021)

Victor said:


> Tipping is not a moral obligation. I mean it is not an ethical issue by which you are a good or bad person I wrote a article on it
> 
> I agree that the public should not be responsible for a workers wage. Even if they are it does not follow that YOU personally are. If you are then in a sense you are working for the employer by paying her wage!  Workers feel entitled to tips like they are doing you a favor
> Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??


Maybe feel guilty for them having to massage a fat, sweaty old man?

Probably not the answer you were looking for


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## Victor (Jan 5, 2021)

I. Read that tipping began in the upper class or affluent to insure prompt service. They could easily afford it. Then it became custom. The more affluent people probably raised the ante for all of us.  It is the same way with other services. People tip nicely even for bad service.  Not me


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## Knight (Jan 5, 2021)

The consensus seems to be tips should not supplement the wage paid for various jobs.

I've never owned a business or worked at a service job that relied on tips. So I don't know what it would take to be able to stay in business or support my needs via tips.

Thankfully after leaving the Navy I've been able to move & work at jobs that led to better employment. Not everyone has that chance in life.

So for those posting here that feel tips should not be part of the wage of those that need them. What would your solution be to make it possible for business owners & those not capable of working at jobs requiring a high skill level for higher pay?


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## OneEyedDiva (Jan 5, 2021)

I've never had tippers remorse. Good service deserves a good tip. Exceptional service deserves extra. On the flip side, twice I've had horrible service such that I believed the waitresses may have been racist (but maybe not). Each time I left a couple of pennies (which I heard is an insult) and a note saying "Here's your tip...you might want to be more courteous and attentive to your customers".


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 5, 2021)

Victor said:


> I. Read that tipping began in the upper class or affluent to insure prompt service. They could easily afford it. Then it became custom. The more affluent people probably raised the ante for all of us.  It is the same way with other services. *People tip nicely even for bad service.  Not me*


Not us either.


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## Autumn (Jan 5, 2021)

I don't go out to eat these days, but I tip the man who delivers my groceries and the man who picks up and delivers my laundry very generously.  The way I feel is that these people are basically risking their own health to provide me a service.  I have no idea what I'd do without their willingness to take that risk.  These are low paying jobs and I think they deserve a little extra.  I would rethink this if one of them was rude or provided inferior service, but that's never happened.

Everything is just so grim these days, I enjoy the opportunity to do something nice for a person that deserves it.


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## Jeni (Jan 5, 2021)

Tips like many other items has just got out of hand ...... where does it end?   

Minimum or base wage  for tipped employees varies by state.............. and some make a really small amount / some do not.   The whole idea of accepting a tipped type job.....a person should factor in how much effort they put in to service.
 I have known many people that did very well in tipped positions and others who constantly complained about not making enough. 
 I really do not feel a general tip jar that is split among the best and worst employees is a good idea for businesses either. No one is rewarded for extra effort so why bother you are rewarded the same as the slacker. 

Keeping the idea going that the base is super low really works wonders for some tipped employees.

 I do not think if i have a pickup order I should be expected to tip like i had the service of dining in. 

 I also do not think i should tip well regardless of quality of service.  I do not feel bad for leaving a small amount....i do not leave notes on receipts or anything that is called out on facebook etc..... but maybe they realize that they did not do a good job or most likely they just assume a customer is cheap.
In the last few years in my area some restaurants chose to raise their prices pay better hourly and do away with tips.....

Did not work well good servers went where they could make decent money and diners did not like paying those prices.


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## Uptosnuff (Feb 8, 2021)

I used to donate every year to the United Way.  For various reasons I no longer do that.  I have decided I am going to donate to actual people I can see and know where my money is going.

I use the car wash in my small town that still has a guy washing the front and rear of the car.  I give that guy a generous tip.  He works his hind end off in that job and provides a great service to people.  It's a much better car wash than the norm.  The guys working there always seem kind of down and out and I don't mind at all giving them a generous tip.

Also, I get a massage every month.  I found a guy that is great at that and has built up a business.  Along came Covid and whooosh! half his business is gone.  He has a program where, if you get a massage every month, he gives you a wonderful discount.  I am happy to give him a generous tip.  I don't tip as much as the OP so I don't feel conflicted. 

Oh, and I tip in cash.


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## Uptosnuff (Feb 8, 2021)

@Jeni _"In the last few years in my area some restaurants chose to raise their prices pay better hourly and do away with tips.....
Did not work well good servers went where they could make decent money and diners did not like paying those prices."_

Interesting but not surprising to me.  Depending on how much they raised their prices, customers probably got a better deal with the tipping.


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## Packerjohn (Feb 8, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> The only remorse I feel is opening my purse to pay for an already overpriced meal, knowing I have to come up with an additional 15% - 20% more for a tip, hence why dear husband and I never go out to eat.
> 
> Two occasions are etched in my mind as far as times where we left no tip, because of such poor service.


Like you Aunt Marg, I really, really hate tipping at restaurants.  Yes, often the meals are so-so, the atmosphere is one of noise and often there is some sort of bad music that I find hard on my hearing.  Sometimes the customers there leave much to be desired when it comes to manners.  If service was good then I would tip by leaving some money on the table.  No more!  Now, you have to walk up to the till, put your credit card in the machine & you have choices of how much to tip up to 25%.  Really?  Of course, the guy/gal behind the counter is watching you like the American hawk as to how much you tip.  In the future, I have learned when the restaurants open after Covid-19, I will make sure I have cash & leave the tip on the table for the person that served me.  Never did & never will like the machine enforced tipping system.  One main reason I don't really enjoy most restaurants.


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## Packerjohn (Feb 8, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As always, many great points, Tony.
> 
> Tipping IMO should be based upon that of each patron. The end.
> 
> ...


I'm probably wrong here but I believe that the tipping thing started in the good ole USA.  I remember traveling in the US during the 1970s & seeing it.  We didn't have here in Canada.  Then of course, over the years the idea sneaked across the border & now we are being ripped off almost as high as 25%.  I still remember that the concept of open-class rooms came from the US (I believe, California).  It became the rage here until the teachers couldn't stand trying to shout louder than the other teachers & they finally built walls in all the  open areas.  Another brain dead idea!  Tipping at 25% is plain and simple robbery!


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> Like you Aunt Marg, I really, really hate tipping at restaurants.  Yes, often the meals are so-so, the atmosphere is one of noise and often there is some sort of bad music that I find hard on my hearing.  Sometimes the customers there leave much to be desired when it comes to manners.  If service was good then I would tip by leaving some money on the table.  No more!  Now, you have to walk up to the till, put your credit card in the machine & you have choices of how much to tip up to 25%.  Really?  Of course, the guy/gal behind the counter is watching you like the American hawk as to how much you tip.  In the future, I have learned when the restaurants open after Covid-19, I will make sure I have cash & leave the tip on the table for the person that served me.  Never did & never will like the machine enforced tipping system.  One main reason I don't really enjoy most restaurants.


I'm with you 100%, Packer.

You bring up something that resonates with me in a big way... bad music and too loud. Such was the case last February when we went out for lunch at a restaurant, which by the way was the last time we were out to eat.

The other thing that's a major pet-peeve of mine is helping sizes. When it comes to the likes of potatoes - i.e., french fries, rice, and pasta, helpings should be heaping, because those three cost next to nothing, yet I can't tell you how many times over the years where hubby and I ordered a burger and with it came 9 french fries.

Just so hard for me to justify the expense of eating out anymore, and of course with the whole Covid issue, that, too, has put a clamp of my feelings regarding going out, but at the end of the day, at least for me it boils down to being able turnout a better meal at home than any restaurant can offer, and I know how the meal was made, what went into the making of said meals, and of course there's no concern over food-handling practices, etc, related to homemade meals at home.

Better, healthier, cheaper.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> I'm probably wrong here but I believe that the tipping thing started in the good ole USA.  I remember traveling in the US during the 1970s & seeing it.  We didn't have here in Canada.  Then of course, over the years the idea sneaked across the border & now we are being ripped off almost as high as 25%.  I still remember that the concept of open-class rooms came from the US (I believe, California).  It became the rage here until the teachers couldn't stand trying to shout louder than the other teachers & they finally built walls in all the  open areas.  Another brain dead idea!  Tipping at 25% is plain and simple robbery!


I may be wrong, but it seems the whole tipping thing here in Canada has become quite a heated issue, with many having their fill (pardon the pun) over feeling as though they need to get off their wallets further for a tip, after already being gouged for the meal.

I've listened to several CBC Radio reports on such, hinting around putting a stop to tipping, and I hope an end is brought to it.

I used these examples at the start of this thread...

- _If the food is good, then it should be the chef or cook in the back getting the tip, no?_

- _If I'm a nurse in a hospital, should I get tips from each bed-ridden patient I tend to, because I'm good at taking care of them?_

- _If I were a janitor in a school, should students bring monies to school with them each day to tip me, because I keep the floors swept and the garbage cans emptied?_

In large part, I blame consumers for the tip-gouging going on, because as a collective, if restaurant goers quit tipping, sooner or later tipping would fall by wayside.


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## StarSong (Feb 8, 2021)

Pinky said:


> I've so far not had tipper's remorse .. knock wood. If I were dissatisfied with service, I would tip the going 15%, but generally tip 20% (or more, if I'm extremely satisfied with the service).


Same here.  I typically tip 20% - 25%, more if I tie up a table for a long time or if the bill is very low.  My mother was a waitress before my siblings and I were born and she taught us to be generous tippers.

When single and dating, I always had a pretty good sense of what the bill would be. The guy would get the bill and pay the waitstaff, then leave the tip on the table. If he cheaped out on the tip, I didn't go out with him again. (These were the days before CCs were the common mode of payment.)

My belief then and now was that a tendency toward generosity or stinginess hold true in all areas of one's life.  Miserly tippers aren't going to be generous in other situations.      

p.s. I married someone who was a very generous tipper, and as I expected, he's been open-handed throughout our years together.


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## Jeni (Feb 8, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I may be wrong, but it seems the whole tipping thing here in Canada has become quite a heated issue, with many having their fill (pardon the pun) over feeling as though they need to get off their wallets further for a tip, after already being gouged for the meal.
> 
> I've listened to several CBC Radio reports on such, hinting around putting a stop to tipping, and I hope an end is brought to it.
> 
> ...



I see this at holiday times too ...... when people seem to leave a gift / treats for everyone from the postman to the garbage collector etc...
I worked as waitress many years ago and tried to treat all the same not cozy up to type one might expect to be good tippers. 

I see the point but most of the time if I  tip generous it was not about just the food .... it was about the right mix of attention to detail and being helpful etc... 
I do not think it should be universal and i do NOT think we will get people to quit doing it........   too many use tipping as a expression of how they can afford to etc.  
 I have seen many of those stories that make in news about leaving  large tips often with notes on receipt ( often leaked by tipper not the person getting the tip)  ....

$100 on all tabs etc was like a challenge awhile ago ...........I remember a group of celebrities were trying to out do each other it was more about them then the service person they tipped....


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

Jeni said:


> I see this at holiday times too ...... when people seem to leave a gift / treats for everyone from the postman to the garbage collector etc...
> I worked as waitress many years ago and tried to treat all the same not cozy up to type one might expect to be good tippers.
> 
> I see the point but most of the time if I  tip generous it was not about just the food .... it was about the right mix of attention to detail and being helpful etc...
> ...


I just remember (back in the day) when tipping actually meant something and was reserved for special occasions, unlike today where tipping is expected.

When society get's to the point of expecting, the only thing society can expect from folks like myself is a big fat nothing. 

Unrelated to your post, but I for one am sick of hearing about how underpaid table servers are, and tips are what table servers rely/live on.

If that be the case, then time for table servers to look at a more promising career, one that will reward them with a higher income and better lifestyle.

As for those who like throwing their money away foolishly, all the power to them.


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## StarSong (Feb 8, 2021)

Jeni said:


> I see this at holiday times too ...... when people seem to leave a gift / treats for everyone from the postman to the garbage collector etc...
> I worked as waitress many years ago and tried to treat all the same not cozy up to type one might expect to be good tippers.
> 
> I see the point but most of the time if I  tip generous it was not about just the food .... it was about the right mix of attention to detail and being helpful etc...
> ...


I'm delighted at any stories where someone - celebrity or not - leaves an extraordinarily generous tip.  I've yet to meet a person rolling in dough when their income is reliant on tips.  Most are struggling to get by.


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## Jeni (Feb 8, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I'm delighted at any stories where someone - celebrity or not - leaves an extraordinarily generous tip.  I've yet to meet a person rolling in dough when their income is reliant on tips.  Most are struggling to get by.


My point was they do it to pat themselves on the back not because they care about the struggling service person ...... 
I am happy for the person getting the tip....... just not the display of self promotion around it.


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## StarSong (Feb 8, 2021)

Jeni said:


> My point was they do it to pat themselves on the back not because they care about the struggling service person ......
> I am happy for the person getting the tip....... just not the display of self promotion around it.


Celebrities are all about self-promotion.  It keeps them in the public eye.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I'm delighted at any stories where someone - celebrity or not - leaves an extraordinarily generous tip.  I've yet to meet a person rolling in dough when their income is reliant on tips.  *Most are struggling to get by*.


To those struggling to get by, get busy and find something that pays better.

The poor working stiff that's employed by the city to dig out plugged sewer drainage systems by-hand is probably underpaid, too, so shall we all be tossing coins and dollar bills at him as well, because he's struggling to get by?


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## Victor (Feb 9, 2021)

No.  Tipping is for personal service only.   Yes it is expected as if it is required part of the bill. Once I did not leave a tip for coffee at a cafe and the next day the same waitress charged me a quarter more for the same coffee.  How petty. I never went back.   Florida.


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## StarSong (Feb 9, 2021)

My grandmother used to tell us, "If you can't be a sport when you go out, stay home."  Those are words I've lived by.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

Victor said:


> No.  Tipping is for personal service only.   Yes it is expected as if it is required part of the bill. Once I did not leave a tip for coffee at a cafe and the next day the same waitress charged me a quarter more for the same coffee.  How petty. I never went back.   Florida.


We live in a world that revolves around - take, take, take.

Good on ya for not going back!


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> My grandmother used to tell us, "If you can't be a sport when you go out, stay home."  Those are words I've lived by.


Being a "sport" IMO has absolutely zero to do with how people manage their finances and/or how they open up their wallets and for whom.

Receiving a tip is a _privilege_, not a _right_.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

Blessed is He Who Expects Nothing, for He Shall Never Be Disappointed.​


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## Lewkat (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As always, many great points, Tony.
> 
> Tipping IMO should be based upon that of each patron. The end.
> 
> ...


Waiters and waitresses have always been paid a pauper's wage so that the customer would tip well due to feeling sorry for them.  My cousin waited tables all through college to make spending money and it is  a thankless job.  They take a lot of guff when most often problems that arise are not any fault of theirs.  Not a job I'd ever care to do.  Yet, I've been compared to wait staff being a nurse.  Listen, I tell people, it's my job to save lives not deliver their meals to them and therein lies the difference.  Plus, we ethically and legally cannot accept tips or gifts of any kind.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Waiters and waitresses have always been paid a pauper's wage so that the customer would tip well due to feeling sorry for them.  My cousin waited tables all through college to make spending money and it is  a thankless job.  They take a lot of guff when most often problems that arise are not any fault of theirs.  Not a job I'd ever care to do.  Yet, I've been compared to wait staff being a nurse.  Listen, I tell people, it's my job to save lives not deliver their meals to them and therein lies the difference.  Plus, we ethically and legally cannot accept tips or gifts of any kind.


I could never do the job either, Lew.

One thing I have noticed about servers today, they don't hold a candle to the waiters and waitresses of yesteryear.

Until recent, dear husband and I would go out to a restaurant, once, maybe twice a year, and we sure noticed when a table server was good at his or her job, they really stand out, because table servers (the real good ones) are few and far between.

The fake niceties and cheesy smiles that so many display as a way of helping to secure a tip, I can do without. I don't miss going to restaurants whatsoever, not that we ever did.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> My grandmother used to tell us, "If you can't be a sport when you go out, stay home."  Those are words I've lived by.


I agree. 

For me, tipping is a part of eating out or traveling and if you are not willing to include it in your budget you should stay home or hit the drive-in window at McDonald's.

Having said that I would prefer that waitstaff and service workers be paid a living wage with the additional cost included in the price of the goods and services as a normal part of overhead.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree.
> 
> *For me, tipping is a part of eating out or traveling and if you are not willing to include it in your budget you should stay home or hit the drive-in window at McDonald's.*
> 
> Having said that I would prefer that waitstaff and service workers be paid a living wage with the additional cost included in the price of the goods and services as a normal part of overhead.


I disagree.

How people spend their money, and to what degree people are willing to open up their pocketbooks is strictly up to them, it's the consumer who wields the power when it comes to money, and so regardless of whether or not a restaurant-goer is willing to tip or not, has no bearing on where they should choose to eat.

It's a free world.

Post #77 says it all.


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## StarSong (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Blessed is He Who Expects Nothing, for He Shall Never Be Disappointed.​


Glad I don't fall into the category of expecting nothing, just as I don't fall into the category of giving nothing.    

Not the way I'd want to live.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I disagree.
> 
> How people spend their money, and to what degree people are willing to open up their pocketbooks is strictly up to them, it's the consumer who wields the power when it comes to money, and so regardless of whether or not a restaurant-goer is willing to tip or not, has no bearing on where they should choose to eat.
> 
> ...


No need to quote me or cite your previous post.  

I'm aware of your opinions and you are entitled to them in the same way that I should be entitled to mine.


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## Hapiguy (Feb 9, 2021)

Anybody can slop hash.  I believe a server however earns their gratuity by providing good service.  For me 'good service' is: salad first, then *wait* for the salad to be finished before serving the main meal then *wait *before serving the after dinner drink and dessert.  Seems that may be how the term *wait*ress and *wait*er originated.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

Hapiguy said:


> Anybody can slop hash.  I believe a server however earns their gratuity by providing good service.  For me 'good service' is: salad first, then *wait* for the salad to be finished before serving the main meal then *wait *before serving the after dinner drink and dessert.  Seems that may be how the term *wait*ress and *wait*er originated.


Yes, with the gratuity based upon the comfort level of each visiting patron.

I quite like Merriam-Webster's definition of gratuity, "_something given voluntarily or beyond obligation_".


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## fmdog44 (Feb 9, 2021)

I love tip jars at the checkout register. Is it service to take your money in the amount of the charge? No it is not.
As for tipping for lousy and or no service I leave them nothing. Sometimes I wonder if a better message would be to leave a nickle that way they know I was not happy versus thinking their service was good but I just forgot to tip. Bad service is one thing but when it is rude service then I let them know.


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## fmdog44 (Feb 9, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> This - "the 15% rule", is what I am asking about.  Where did it originate and how did it spread?
> 
> Tony


The tip rule follows inflation.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I love tip jars at the checkout register. Is it service to take your money in the amount of the charge? No it is not.
> *As for tipping for lousy and or no service I leave them nothing.* Sometimes I wonder if a better message would be to leave a nickle that way they know I was not happy versus thinking their service was good but I just forgot to tip. Bad service is one thing but when it is rude service then I let them know.


Good on you, FM.

Exactly what they'd get from us, too, for lousy service, and on a couple of occasions that is exactly what we left after a meal, nothing, and we never went back for seconds.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 9, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> The tip rule follows inflation.


Not an answer to the questions I asked.  Your answer would be for the question: How is the tipping amount generally set?  That is not what I asked.

Again:

Where did it originate?

A valid answer might contain information such as when and where tipping got started.

How did it spread?

A valid answer might contain information such as how did other places of service find out about the first tip?

I can come up with some plausible guesses to the second question and maybe google might yield an answer to the first question.  However, maybe somebody here in the forums might have definitive answers.

A quick google search provided a number of sites with information regarding where tipping originated, and at least some of these seem to be in agreement on this.  There are many sites than these, but at least they provide some idea of what my question entailed.

https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tip-sheet/


Tony


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Not an answer to the questions I asked.  Your answer would be for the question: How is the tipping amount generally set?  That is not what I asked.
> 
> Again:
> 
> ...


Here is my take on tipping. 

Tipping originated way back in the day as a thank you to those providing services to others. It was a nice way to reward and express additional thanks to those who were hired to perform a job, a duty, or a task, yet the worker performing the required work took things to the next level and outdid themselves in seeing to the work or job they were hired to do. A job (and effort) that exceeded the expectations of the ones who did the hiring.

Somehow over the past (who knows how many years), tipping began to be take on a more given form, one of a granted one in certain industries, the food industry being one of them, where it was learned and taught to be expected, and then just like the stranger that knocks on ones door, and upon opening the door to answer, the stranger sticks his or her boot between the door and the jamb, and before long the stranger is inside. You know what I'm talking about, give an inch, take a mile.

Tipping evolved to become much the same. Instead of tipping being a nice gesture (every now and then) as a way to extend an additional appreciation for services, providing the person doing the tipping can afford the extra means and feels comfortable offering such additional monies, somewhere along the line someone got the idea that tipping should be mandatory, expected, a given, the norm... one where for some employees, equates to them counting imaginary change in their pockets before they even leave their homes, just because they work in the food industry. Reeks of entitlement to me. 

Well I'm old-school, so I'll be the one that so chooses to tip if and when I feel a tip is due, and just as FM, mentioned, in the event I'm not satisfied with the services that were extended to me, you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll be no tip, and I find nothing more insulting than to be handed a pay terminal that's pre-programmed to reflect 15%, 20%, and 25% tip amount.

As for handing out money being a sport, that's a new one on me, because having been born and raised in a poor home, I learned at an early age that handing out money was anything but a sport, but if somewhere along the way handing out money today has become some sort of sport, that's one sport I'm not interested in, but to everyone else who enjoys it, my advice to them is, be my guest and knock yourselves out, but don't expect the masses to follow.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Here is my take on tipping.
> 
> Tipping originated way back in the day as a thank you to those providing services to others. It was a nice way to reward and express additional thanks to those who were hired to perform a job, a duty, or a task, yet the worker performing the required work took things to the next level and outdid themselves in seeing to the work or job they were hired to do. A job (and effort) that exceeded the expectations of the ones who did the hiring.
> 
> ...


Thanks Aunt Marg!  An intelligent and well thought out reply.  A number of the google hits were to sites that reflected much of what you say - for tipping in the US instead of going all the way back to the Middle Ages. 

One issue I see with tipping, which actually goes along with what you have described is that employers feel that they can pay those being tipped LESS because the tips are expected to make up for it.  So the "*where it was learned and taught to be expected, and then just like the stranger that knocks on ones door, and upon opening the door to answer, the stranger sticks his or her boot between the door and the jamb, and before long the stranger is inside*" on the part of the person expecting tips is actually expecting that part of his or her basic wage.  I am not justifying the practice, but instead passing on what folks in this position are dealing with.  It is not a good system, and the only people who benefit from it really are the owners of the establishment because they don't have to pay as much for the help.

I think I explained my response to fmdog44 well enough in my response to his post to not have to go into it again.  Clearly, you understood what I had originally asked for, as your response reflects.

Tony


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## Hapiguy (Feb 9, 2021)

Wow...After reading all of this pro, con and percent consideration about tipping, I'm going to change my restaurant MO.

From now on, after I narrate my order, I'll say...by the way, if you are at all concerned about the amount of your gratuity...Please say after me...appetizer first, then salad, then dinner, then coffee and dessert, and if it is to be served hot, warm, chilled or cold it must be served that way [I hate to watch my food being ignored in the order out line].  If I still get lousy service at least it's not my fault...I tried.  

Provided of course that they don't immediately point me in the direction of the exit door.


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## StarSong (Feb 9, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As for handing out money being a sport, that's a new one on me, because having been born and raised in a poor home, I learned at an early age that handing out money was anything but a sport, but if somewhere along the way handing out money today has become some sort of sport, that's one sport I'm not interested in, but to everyone else who enjoys it, my advice to them is, be my guest and knock yourselves out, but don't expect the masses to follow.


The expression of "being a sport" has nothing to do with athletic sports.  My grandmother's meaning by "If you can't be a sport when you go out, stay home" was that if you're going out, don't be a tightwad.  And that included tipping.   

According to Dictionary.com, one definition of sport: a person who behaves in a sportsmanlike, fair, or admirable manner; an accommodating person.   

As for growing up poor, in my experience poverty and wealth are rarely related to generosity. 

On that note, I'm going to bow out of this thread.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> *The expression of "being a sport" has nothing to do with athletic sports*.  My grandmother's meaning by "If you can't be a sport when you go out, stay home" was that if you're going out, don't be a tightwad.  And that included tipping.
> 
> According to Dictionary.com, one definition of sport: a person who behaves in a sportsmanlike, fair, or admirable manner; an accommodating person.
> 
> ...


Yes, I had that figured out when you posted it the first time on page 3, post #74, but thank you for the walk-through anyway.


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## garyt1957 (Feb 11, 2021)

Victor said:


> Back to my question why do I over tip massage girls??


Could it be you're "happy with the ending?"


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## garyt1957 (Feb 11, 2021)

Lots of cheap people in this thread rationalizing their cheapness.


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## Dudewho (Feb 11, 2021)

If your not going to tip for a food service (In house or delivery). I would suggest not returning to or ordering from the same establishment again. If you made a person work for minimum wage or for free. They tend to have a long memory and will be making your food again.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Dudewho said:


> If your not going to tip for a food service (In house or delivery). I would suggest not returning to or ordering from the same establishment again. If you made a person work for minimum wage or for free. They tend to have a long memory and will be making your food again.


Ahhh... you are employed in the food industry are you? LOL!


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## old medic (Feb 11, 2021)

WELL... there was this one cow in my youth....


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