# Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?



## Ralphy1 (Aug 6, 2015)

The thinking that if we didn't that an invasion might cost 1 million lives of our troops is the accepted justification.  However, there is evidence that we thought that if the Russians invaded that Stalin would add Japan to his empire.  On the 70th anniversary of Hiroshima it is sad that 140 thousand had to die for whatever reason...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 6, 2015)

Hindsight is always an easy thing to pull off, but I've always wondered if those acts were absolutely necessary. Japan was already mortally crippled and most of their population just wanted to stop fighting.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 6, 2015)

This is also true as they had no way to continue fighting anywhere but on their homeland and disease and starvation was probably inevitable...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 6, 2015)

Of course, being a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy type I've heard that it was only done (or _mainly_ done) to test out the bombs themselves - that the previous tests weren't "live" and they wanted to see the effects on an actual population.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Wow!  That's bigger than those who think LBJ was behind the Kennedy assassination...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm not the only one ... even Eisenhower was questioning it.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Hmm, you also probably believe that FDR knew in advance that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor but did nothing so the country could get into the war...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 6, 2015)

Well ... yeah. Not quite _that_ bad, but there _were_ signs that were late / ignored ...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Great source, I can see now that FDR was as bad as Obama...


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## oldman (Aug 6, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Well ... yeah. Not quite _that_ bad, but there _were_ signs that were late / ignored ...



My Dad, who fought in WWII, often told me that we missed so many signs that the Japanese were going to attack that we really have no one to blame, but ourselves for missing the opportunity to be prepared. I think Admiral Bill Halsey or Chester Nimitz was convinced that the Japanese would bomb Pearl Harbor, but had no luck with convincing the other officers stationed at Pearl. The bombing of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were imminent because President Truman was really pissed at what the Japanese did and the way they went about it. 

I had a teacher that taught P.O.D. (Problems of Democracy) in high school back in 1965, who served on Tinian Island and served as a mechanic for the Enola Gay and the few other aircraft that were on the island. His picture can be seen as part of the crew, which is often shown. When speaking about that era his thoughts were that had we not bombed Japan the war would have lasted longer and more GI lives would have been lost. Whether that is some propaganda spread about by the gov't or not is still in question.


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## Debby (Aug 6, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Hindsight is always an easy thing to pull off, but I've always wondered if those acts were absolutely necessary. Japan was already mortally crippled and most of their population just wanted to stop fighting.




The Japanese government of that time was trying to surrender since about January of that year.  Even their government wanted to 'stop fighting'.

And according to the reading that I've done, once the details of what those bombs caused (the gruesome and gory details of suffering) the American public of the time began to be very uncomfortable with what had been wrought in their name, the government began to spread the idea that 'millions of lives were saved by dropping those bombs'.  There are  historians and experts who now say the lives saved were minimal and the deaths and suffering caused far outweighed any potential good.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/atombomb/strange_myth/article.html       Hiroshima - The Strange Myth of Half a Million American Lives Saved  
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html          Was Hiroshima Necessary?


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## Bee (Aug 6, 2015)

[h=1]Hiroshima marks 70 years since atomic bomb[/h]

*Residents in the Japanese city of Hiroshima are commemorating the 70th anniversary of the first atomic bomb being dropped by a US aircraft.*
A ceremony, attended by PM Shinzo Abe, was held at Hiroshima's memorial park before thousands of lanterns are released on the city's Motoyasu river.
The bombing - and a second one on Nagasaki three days later - is credited with bringing to an end World War Two.
But it claimed the lives of at least 140,000 people in the city.
A US B-29 bomber called the Enola Gay dropped the uranium bomb, exploding some 600m (1,800ft) above the city, at around 08:10 on 6 August 1945.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33792789


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2015)

After action analysis is always easy. One must consider exactly what information those making the decisions had and what was the actual behavior of others. A lot of the memos, cables, telegrams, meeting minutes etc researchers have years to analyze but those actually seeing & using them at the time did not. They had to make decisions on the information they actually had or accumulated til the time their decisions were made. In hindsight only yes one must think was it really necessary. 

So Japan made "overtures" or hinted they would be open to a negotiated peace, really? Was the monthly call so to speak. Were they sincere, did Allied intelligence show they were sincere or it was it just a stalling tactic.  It was known that unconditional surrender was the only way out for Japan which means no conditions, nothing to negotiate.

Also just saw this the other day although it's been a theory for a while that Japan had their own plans for atomic bomb.

http://www.vagazette.com/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805,0,6884300.story

People over look it but Japan was the only other nation to deploy aircraft carriers en masse ie they could develope and actually use technology.


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## Warrigal (Aug 6, 2015)

What's done is done and what is important is to learn a lesson from it.

Never again. Always diplomacy first,  and last, if at all possible.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> What's done is done and what is important is to learn a lesson from it.
> 
> Never again. Always diplomacy first,  and last, if at all possible.



Exactly. It was a brutal lesson but sometimes they are part of the process.


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## 911 (Aug 6, 2015)

I was in Hawaii once and we visited Pearl Harbor and of course, took the boat ride out to the U.S.S. Arizona. Very solemn place, that's for sure. I'm sorry for the people that have had to deal with the effects of the bombing. So many lives lost and what was gained?


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## Warrigal (Aug 6, 2015)

Prior to Hawaii the Japanese diplomats were working hard but were undermined by the military. Diplomacy didn't stand much chance then. Still, we must always try and try in good faith.


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## Cookie (Aug 6, 2015)

I think we covered this topic to a large extent in a past thread:  the consensus by many SF members at that time was that the bombings were justified, as they remember being very frightened as children of the idea of the Japanese attacking the US and believed the threat to be very real.  My own opinion was that the nuclear bombs were not justified then, nor would they be so today. 

A trip to Japan's bombing sites to see the effects of the bombings might be equally solemn, and there are archival footage and photographs available.  
"So many lives lost and what gained."


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## Josiah (Aug 6, 2015)

I wonder if anyone considered notifying the Japanese that we had this weapon and to demonstrate that fact we were going to drop an atomic bomb fifty miles off the coast of Japan at a specific time. This might have achieved an end to the war without killing any people.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

I will say only this you reap what you sow.  Japan made a sneak attack that brought us into it.  I won't re-do WW2.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I wonder if anyone considered notifying the Japanese that we had this weapon and to demonstrate that fact we were going to drop an atomic bomb fifty miles off the coast of Japan at a specific time. This might have achieved an end to the war without killing any people.



Many have speculated on a demonstration but if civilians and military already saw cities like Tokyo turned into rubble with conventional bombing I don't see a demonstration mostly witnessed by military making a dent in the mentality of the time.. They didn't even surrender after the first one.


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## Josiah (Aug 6, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Many have speculated on a demonstration but if civilians and military already saw cities like Tokyo turned into rubble with conventional bombing I don't see a demonstration mostly witnessed by military making a dent in the mentality of the time.. They didn't even surrender after the first one.



You may well be right. But had we done a demonstration with the first bomb and still had to use a 2nd bomb on a city, history would be a lot kinder to HST.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

I don't forget the times.  Torture, rapes, brutal slavery.  They got what they asked for.


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## imp (Aug 6, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I don't forget the times.  Torture, rapes, brutal slavery.  They got what they asked for.



Jim, as John Wayne remarked to Bruce Dern, after filming the scene in which Dern's character shoots Wayne in the back, he said, "They're gonna hate you for that!" And, some may hate you for stating the truth, here. 

But, you're right!    imp


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## Shalimar (Aug 6, 2015)

I agree with you Cookie.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 6, 2015)

Long before my time, but my dad served in the Pacific theater.  I remember him getting together with his war buddies and talking about the brutality of the Japanese..  I've never felt the least bit upset over how the war was finally ended..


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2015)

Josiah said:


> You may well be right. But had we done a demonstration with the first bomb and still had to use a 2nd bomb on a city, history would be a lot kinder to HST.



I think I heard one of the catalysts for going right into full fledged use with no demonstration was at the time those two bombs were the only ones ready.


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## Shirley (Aug 6, 2015)

I think Truman did what he thought had to be done. I'm sure it was an agonizing decision.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I think Truman did what he thought had to be done. I'm sure it was an agonizing decision.



I agree, I don't think he was happy about it but he felt it had to be.  I agree with his decision.  It's easy for people today to be critical but there is a difference between hindsight and then.


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## Laurie (Aug 6, 2015)

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

Stop pussyfooting around.

We were at war and they were the aggressors.

To quote Bomber Harris in a different context, "They have sown the wind, and now they shall reap the whirlwind".

If it stopped my uncle in Burma getting his pinkie  scratched it was justified.

Total war is total war.  There are no civilians.  What percentage of the population of Hiroshima condemned Pearl Harbour?

Get used to it.


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## RadishRose (Aug 6, 2015)

When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.

I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.

Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.


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## Josiah (Aug 6, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.
> 
> I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.
> 
> Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.



I hadn't been aware of the leaflets being dropped which surprises me but which doesn't excuse my ignorance, Yes leaflets were dropped and here is the text of one.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-leaflets/


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## Underock1 (Aug 6, 2015)

I watch the Tokyo news every night, and of course they covered the bomb anniversary. I grew up during the war and I remember the event quite well. The _vast majority _of Americans, _at that time,_ not to mention people around the world, greeted the dropping of the bombs and Japan's surrender with an outpouring of joy and relief exceeding anything else I have ever witnessed since. No one *at the time* thought it was a wrong thing to do. Of course it was a great human tragedy. No doubt about that, but I confess I was really angered today to hear one Japanese man, who might have been a survivor, describe it as "an inhuman act". Well I'm sorry, but the Japanese military with deliberate forethought and intent to extend their empire, started the war. Anyone interested will find it easy to learn of the deliberate bombing of civilians, rape, torture, and four years of inhuman acts committed by the Japanese during WWII.
 As far as Japan being ready to surrender; not only Japanese soldiers, but civilians as well, can be seen in documentaries committing suicide rather than surrender. There are films showing civilians drilling in the streets of Japan with sharpened sticks in preparation to defend their home land. I really am not an expert on the following. Just typing from recall. I remember seeing a documentary about Japan's surrender. As I recall, it took some kind of coup by some under officers, to force the decision on the Emperor. No. I'm sorry. I'm a died in the wool pacifist, and I love today's Japanese, but they are not who we were dealing with in WWII. It was a horrible event in human history. No doubt about that. Thousands of innocents killed. It must never happen again. No doubt about that, but let's be careful about who's pointing fingers at whom.


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## Josiah (Aug 6, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I watch the Tokyo news every night, and of course they covered the bomb anniversary. I grew up during the war and I remember the event quite well. The _vast majority _of Americans, _at that time,_ not to mention people around the world, greeted the dropping of the bombs and Japan's surrender with an outpouring of joy and relief exceeding anything else I have ever witnessed since. No one *at the time* thought it was a wrong thing to do. Of course it was a great human tragedy. No doubt about that, but I confess I was really angered today to hear one Japanese man, who might have been a survivor, describe it as "an inhuman act". Well I'm sorry, but the Japanese military with deliberate forethought and intent to extend their empire, started the war. Anyone interested will find it easy to learn of the deliberate bombing of civilians, rape, torture, and four years of inhuman acts committed by the Japanese during WWII.
> As far as Japan being ready to surrender; not only Japanese soldiers, but civilians as well, can be seen in documentaries committing suicide rather than surrender. There are films showing civilians drilling in the streets of Japan with sharpened sticks in preparation to defend their home land. I really am not an expert on the following. Just typing from recall. I remember seeing a documentary about Japan's surrender. As I recall, it took some kind of coup by some under officers, to force the decision on the Emperor. No. I'm sorry. I'm a died in the wool pacifist, and I love today's Japanese, but they are not who we were dealing with in WWII. It was a horrible event in human history. No doubt about that. Thousands of innocents killed. It must never happen again. No doubt about that, but let's be careful about who's pointing fingers at whom.



Goodness Underock do you speak Japanese? I'm so impressed.  My recollections of August 1945 are the same as yours....unexpected joy at the announcement. I was at summer camp at the time and the day after the announcement all the campers spent the day dragging branches out of the woods and that evening we had an enormous bond fire on the beach to celebrate the end of the war.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

Suffice to say, I too remember the times and feel exactly as you do.


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## Debby (Aug 6, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Many have speculated on a demonstration but if civilians and military already saw cities like Tokyo turned into rubble with conventional bombing I don't see a demonstration mostly witnessed by military making a dent in the mentality of the time.. They didn't even surrender after the first one.




The Japanese had been trying since January of that year to surrender.  Documentation to that effect is available.  So your statement would be incorrect that they didn't try to surrender after the first one.  The government of that time had an agenda that required dropping those bombs so they ignored the Japanese effort.  And the only thing the Japanese asked apparently is that their Emperor be allowed to stay in place as the Emperor was considered not only the countries leader but a deity as well.

I have to also say that I find it a little weird that the story of 'sharpening sticks' to repel invaders seems to be such a dreadful thing for them to have done.  I suppose that no self respecting American would ever try to repel invaders either since it apparently is some kind of indictment on human character to do so.  And it should also be noted that harakari (is that the right word to use? not sure)is an ancient practise and chosen to protect honour as opposed to falling into the hands of an (unsympathetic) army.  It is quite likely that their government used propaganda just as every other government paints invaders as monsters.  We should ask ourselves how our own governments treated and spoke of 'our Japanese' citizens of that era even when they were given no reason to believe they were enemies.  What did they tell us to make it easy for the public to allow it without hesitation. I guess in that light, we should never hold it against the German people that they accepted the imprisonment of the Jews.  Propaganda is a powerful tool.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

Debby, please post proof of any such efforts made on behalf of the emperor of Japan.


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## Debby (Aug 6, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> When I was about 13 or 14, I read the book "Hiroshima", not understanding all of it, but enough to learn that the bomb's effects were far greater than I previously realized.
> 
> I recall asking my mother how we could do such a thing to innocent people and other kids. My mother said that we had dropped leaflets by planes all over Japan for many days, warning that a terrible thing was going to happen if they didn't surrender immediately.
> 
> Although I accepted her explanation, I was never really comfortable with it, even then.




I read that book too but I think I was a bit younger.  I think the horrors of what I read there helped to make me the person that I am today.  Maybe it should be required reading in grade 3 and we might have better leaders who aren't so willing to inflict suffering on the civilians in pursuit of God knows what.  Maybe a little emotional trauma that points to war as a horrific and to be avoided event would be good for mankind.  You know, encourage some empathy development.


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## Debby (Aug 6, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Debby, please post proof of any such efforts made on behalf of the emperor of Japan.




https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm

January 17, 1945

'
*Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers*

APPROVED FOR RELEASE
CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAM
22 SEPT 93​*CONFIDENTIAL*​_Documents tracing some fervent but fruitless Japanese efforts to end the war in the Pacific. _
*MEMORANDA FOR THE PRESIDENT: JAPANESE FEELERS*​_The last two volumes of the OSS Reports to the White House preserved among General Donovan's papers1 include records of several different Japanese approaches in 1945 to the Vatican and to OSS Lisbon, Bern, and Wiesbaden seeking a way to end the war. These peace feelers were generally the product of local initiative and had at most only a tacit approval from official Tokyo, where government quarreling over the question of capitulation was growing more and more desperate as the year advanced. They did not lead in any way to the eventual Japanese notes sent through standard diplomatic channels on 10 and 14 August, but they may have helped define for both sides the conditions therein drawn which made "unconditional" surrender a practical possibility._
_The intelligence reports provide interesting and sometimes puzzling footnotes for Robert J. C. Butow's fastidious -- and fascinating -- reconstruction of the intricate political maneuverings that ended in Japan's Decision to Surrender.2 The documents are reproduced below._
_Through the Vatican_
17 January 1945​MEMORANDUM FOR THE PRESIDENT:
On 10 January the Japanese Emperor attended a secret council meeting during which someone dared to speak about peace feelers.3

The Emperor was informed that certain Japanese individuals have been attempting to interest the highest authority at source4 in mediating the Pacific War. The Emperor did not express any disapproval of these efforts.
Someone at the meeting declared that such activities might be a useful preparation for a time more opportune than the present. The Council was skeptical of mediation possibilities, evidently believing that only force of arms would settle the conflict....'


Note the source.....the CIA and also note the opening remark about the efforts being fervent but fruitless!  And the last phrase there 'evidently believing that ONLY force of arms would settle the conflict'.  So there was an obvious desire not to explore surrender.
**********************************

This second link appears to be some sort of Journal of Military History, and the writers credentials are as follows:  Gerhard Krebshas: has held positions at the German Institute of Japanese Studies in Tokyo and at the Institute for Military History in Potsdam, and has taught at Waseda University, Freiburg University and Berlin Free University, where he served as temporary chair from 2000 to 2004.  His doctoral thesis, "Japans Deutschlandpolitik 1935-1941," 2 vols.(Hamburg, 2984), won the Japan price of the East Asia Society (OAG) in Tokyo.






http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/64a.pdf

'...In contrast, Fujimura and Tsuyama had no problem enteringSwitzerland. Since their new host country had neither a coast nor anavy, Fujimura's post became known as "navy air force attache."39In thebeginning of March, the two men arrived in the Swiss capital of Bern,40where they lost no time in initiating their peace efforts.  ....On 23April, the Japanese formally asked Hack to act as go-between with theAmericans for the Japanese navy.  ...


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## Underock1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Goodness Underock do you speak Japanese? I'm so impressed.  My recollections of August 1945 are the same as yours....unexpected joy at the announcement. I was at summer camp at the time and the day after the announcement all the campers spent the day dragging branches out of the woods and that evening we had an enormous bond fire on the beach to celebrate the end of the war.




:rofl1:  No Josiah. I don't speak Japanese. I just watch the international news shows. European news out of Germany. Asian news out of Japan. They're in English. You get a whole different perspective on things. Its really very enlightening. The US news is utterly hopeless unless you're interested in what the "News Team" had for breakfast. I assure you, I am not much to be impressed with. Thanks for the compliment, anyway.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

Debby said:


> January 17, 1945
> 
> '
> *Memoranda for the President: Japanese Feelers*
> ...




OK!  Hardly an  offer though official channels to surrender.  No, sorry means nothing.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

Hey!  I CARE what the news team had for breakfast!!


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## Underock1 (Aug 6, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Hey!  I CARE what the news team had for breakfast!!



Well, O.K. then.:wiggle:


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## Cookie (Aug 6, 2015)

Experts are still debating whether the bombings were justified.... and still have no answer.

Hiroshima:  140,000 people dead
Nagasaki :     80,000 people dead

U.S. Army poster prepares the public for the invasion of Japan after ending war on Germany and Italy:


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## Underock1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Debby said:


> The Japanese had been trying since January of that year to surrender.  Documentation to that effect is available.  So your statement would be incorrect that they didn't try to surrender after the first one.  The government of that time had an agenda that required dropping those bombs so they ignored the Japanese effort.  And the only thing the Japanese asked apparently is that their Emperor be allowed to stay in place as the Emperor was considered not only the countries leader but a deity as well.
> 
> I have to also say that I find it a little weird that the story of 'sharpening sticks' to repel invaders seems to be such a dreadful thing for them to have done.  I suppose that no self respecting American would ever try to repel invaders either since it apparently is some kind of indictment on human character to do so.  And it should also be noted that harakari (is that the right word to use? not sure)is an ancient practice and chosen to protect honor as opposed to falling into the hands of an (unsympathetic) army.  It is quite likely that their government used propaganda just as every other government paints invaders as monsters.  We should ask ourselves how our own governments treated and spoke of 'our Japanese' citizens of that era even when they were given no reason to believe they were enemies.  What did they tell us to make it easy for the public to allow it without hesitation. I guess in that light, we should never hold it against the German people that they accepted the imprisonment of the Jews.  Propaganda is a powerful tool.



So basically what you're saying is that of course they would defend themselves to the death with their sharpened sticks because the honorable thing to do is to die rather than surrender. Sorry. The bomb, horrible as it was, saved a lot of lives. Curiously, there were other conventional bombings in WWII that killed more people, and were far more unjustified. They don't get nearly the same attention. I fully agree with you that the interment of the Japanese Americans was tragic. A gross injustice. I can only say, that if I had lived on the West Coast immediately after Pearl Harbor, I might have felt differently. All historic events have to be judged according to the conditions and attitudes of the times, not by our current standards.
Its easy to judge, when its not our own lives that are under threat, whether that threat is real or just perceived.
Unfair as it was, I think your comparing of the interment of the Japanese to the Holocaust is just a wee bit of a reach!


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## AZ Jim (Aug 6, 2015)

I lived in Los Angeles before and after Pearl Harbor.  We had anti-aircraft guns in neighborhood on every vacant lot it seemed. Japanese subs shelled the pacific coast.  The Northern mountains were bombed by balloon devices to start forest fires.  It was a very stressful time for us all.

http://www.school-for-champions.com/history/japanese_attacked_santa_barbara.htm#.VcQ4f_lp3K8

http://www.wired.com/2010/05/0505japanese-balloon-kills-oregon/


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## Underock1 (Aug 6, 2015)

The Rape of Nanking- A little perspective-
In December, 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into Nanking, and proceeded to murder 300,000, out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The _six weeks _of carnage would be the single worst atrocity during WWII in either the European or Pacific Theatre. There were also numerous bombings of other Chinese cities, specifically directed at the civilian population including the targeting of hospitals. 
As I have said before; I love today's Japanese. I was totally in favor of reparations for the wrongful interment of Japanese/Americans, but these Japanese weren't them.


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## chic (Aug 7, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Hindsight is always an easy thing to pull off, but I've always wondered if those acts were absolutely necessary. Japan was already mortally crippled and most of their population just wanted to stop fighting.



On what do you base this statement that Japan was mortally crippled before the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?


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## chic (Aug 7, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I wonder if anyone considered notifying the Japanese that we had this weapon and to demonstrate that fact we were going to drop an atomic bomb fifty miles off the coast of Japan at a specific time. This might have achieved an end to the war without killing any people.



My parents told me that the president did warn Japan about atomic weapons, but Hirohito was not impressed. I'm not sure about the accuracy of this. I wasn't born at the time.


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## Butterfly (Aug 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Long before my time, but my dad served in the Pacific theater.  I remember him getting together with his war buddies and talking about the brutality of the Japanese..  I've never felt the least bit upset over how the war was finally ended..



Me, either.


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## Butterfly (Aug 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I agree, I don't think he was happy about it but he felt it had to be.  I agree with his decision.  It's easy for people today to be critical but there is a difference between hindsight and then.



Argee, absolutely.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

I have just been reviewing my research on the Rape of Nanking. See my post above, I now have no doubt that the Japanese deserved every bit of what they got. I had forgotten what vicious, sub humans they really were at the time. I think there ought to be an exhibit at Hiroshima about that, so that everyone understands who was ultimately responsible for the end result. I advise anyone with a weak stomach not to pull up any of the images, photoed with pride by the Japanese themselves. They will haunt you for the rest of your life.


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## Butterfly (Aug 7, 2015)

chic said:


> On what do you base this statement that Japan was mortally crippled before the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?



I'd like to know the answer to this one, too.  I believe they had vowed to keep fighting to the last man, and would have done so, at the cost of a lot more lives.  I also do not believe Japan was trying to surrender.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 7, 2015)

chic said:


> On what do you base this statement that Japan was mortally crippled before the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?



The population was starving and their industry was essentially gone.

It wasn't the bombs that ended the war - it was Stalin. 

That happened several days _after_ the bombs fell.


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## oldman (Aug 7, 2015)

I watched a few very well produced shows on TV last night concerning the 'A' bomb and learned a lot that I did not know, including how the atomic bomb was able to cause the destruction that it did. The History Channel and the National Geo Channel both had excellent shows. Some of the survivors gave their testimonials about what is was like the day the bomb was dropped. It gave me pause to think about how, if today there would be nuclear war and what the results would be like. I think "total annihilation" would be a good analysis. 

Many Historians state that the dropping of the second 'A' bomb is what brought Japan to the table to end the war. Russia declaring war on Japan was probably the "last straw" and put the handwriting on the wall for Japan to surrender. Here is a short eight and a half minute video that depicts Hiroshima before, during and after the drop of the bomb, known as "Little Boy."


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## WhatInThe (Aug 7, 2015)

Debby said:


> https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ence/kent-csi/vol9no3/html/v09i3a06p_0001.htm
> 
> January 17, 1945
> 
> ...



In the memo for the president:

'...feelers...' &  'product of local initiative'

It was also noted that Japan did not use formal diplomatic channels until August 10, 1945

The fact that these were 'feelers' says that the Japanese were seeing what they could get or what the allies wanted which means unconditional surrender wasn't on their table yet. If they were that serious an obvious white flag would've come out along with the use of standard formal diplomatic protocol & channels. Just the fact that an unofficial third party is trying to facilitate an agreement takes away credibility.


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## Cookie (Aug 7, 2015)

I find it appalling that so many on this thread have no remorse at all about the killing of almost 300,000 people by the US, including innocent children and women, saying things like 'they had it coming'.  Justifying it with strategic mumbo jumbo does not fly.  At least show some humanity and empathy.  How disappointing to see so many here are really heartlessly sub-human themselves. This is sickening.


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## Shalimar (Aug 7, 2015)

I concur, Cookie. Also, the horrors perpetuated by some cruel Japanese, pale in comparison to the  eradication of six million Jews by Hitler and his band of monsters. After the war, many of the Nazi war criminals were invited by the powers that be to live in America. Hmmm.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I find it appalling that so many on this thread have no remorse at all about the killing of almost 300,000 people by the US, including innocent children and women, saying things like 'they had it coming'.  Justifying it with strategic mumbo jumbo does not fly.  At least show some humanity and empathy.  How disappointing to see so many here are really heartlessly sub-human themselves. This is sickening.



This was an all out war.  Civilians always seem to get caught up in middle. I'm sure many do have regrets and many do not. Judgement, hindsight and after action analysis is always easier over time with access to information the participants didn't have or information historians never get. This is a tragic example of what blind loyalty leads to. This is also an impetus for many of the peace and nuclear weapons treaties that followed. They say war is heck for a reason.


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## BobF (Aug 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I concur, Cookie. Also, the horrors perpetuated by some cruel Japanese, pale in comparison to the  eradication of six million Jews by Hitler and his band of monsters. After the war, many of the Nazi war criminals were invited by the powers that be to live in America. Hmmm.



Post a list of those criminals you claim were invited to the US.   I lived in an area where many Germans decided to stay after the war was over.   They had been kept in a prisoner camp nearby.   Chose to stay in the states rather than go back to a destroyed Germany.

Never hears of criminals but for some that were returned to Germany for those world crime courts.   Most I met were pretty nice folks.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> This was an all out war.  Civilians always seem to get caught up in middle. I'm sure many do have regrets and many do not. Judgement, hindsight and after action analysis is always easier over time with access to information the participants didn't have or information historians never get. This is a tragic example of what blind loyalty leads to. This is also an impetus for many of the peace and nuclear weapons treaties that followed. They say war is heck for a reason.



Agree, you had to have been there in that mindset and time frame.  All Americans were glad it was over but none took any great pleasure from the carnage.  However, the Japanese atrocities were fresh on our minds too.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I find it appalling that so many on this thread have no remorse at all about the killing of almost 300,000 people by the US, including innocent children and women, saying things like 'they had it coming'.  Justifying it with strategic mumbo jumbo does not fly.  At least show some humanity and empathy.  How disappointing to see so many here are really heartlessly sub-human themselves. This is sickening.



Did you read my posts on the Rape of Nanking? 300,000 people, deliberately, and systematically murdered, raped, and tortured by the Japanese, for six full days. Not motivated by the hope of ending a war and saving more deaths, but to terrorize the population, and just for *fun!* If you have the stomach for it, you can find the pictures of babies on bayonets, and worse. Photos taken by the perpetrators to be sent back home with pride. "Dear Mom and Dad, Today I decapitated two men, raped and murdered three pregnant women, and bayoneted six babies"...and they accuse others of being "inhuman"? 
Acknowledged as the single worst atrocity of WWII. Why are there no annual memorial services in Nanking?


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## Laurie (Aug 7, 2015)

All offers of surrender had the pre-condition that the Emperor remained in place and was inviolate.

That was not acceptable to the Allies (might have been acceptable to Truman, but never Churchill).

Unconditional surrender of both Germany and Japan was agreed very early in the war.

In fact there is a widely held body of opinion that we could have had peace Germany in 43/44 but Churchill was adamant, unconditional surrender.


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## Debby (Aug 7, 2015)

BobF said:


> Post a list of those criminals you claim were invited to the US.   I lived in an area where many Germans decided to stay after the war was over.   They had been kept in a prisoner camp nearby.   Chose to stay in the states rather than go back to a destroyed Germany.
> 
> Never hears of criminals but for some that were returned to Germany for those world crime courts.   Most I met were pretty nice folks.




http://www.globalresearch.ca/operat...n-hundred-nazi-scientists-and-doctors/5369981

'...After World War II, the U.S. military hired sixteen hundred former Nazi scientists and doctors, including some of Adolf Hitler’s closest collaborators, including men responsible for murder, slavery, and human experimentation, including men convicted of war crimes, men acquitted of war crimes, and men who never stood trial.  Some of the Nazis tried at Nuremberg had already been working for the U.S. in either Germany or the U.S. prior to the trials.  Some were protected from their past by the U.S. government for years, as they lived and worked in Boston Harbor, Long Island, Maryland, Ohio, Texas, Alabama, and elsewhere, or were flown by the U.S. government to Argentina to protect them from prosecution. ...Not only scientists were hired. Former Nazi spies, most of them former S.S., were hired by the U.S. in post-war Germany to spy on — and torture — Soviets......Nazi scientists developed U.S. chemical and biological weapons programs, bringing over their knowledge of tabun and sarin, not to mention thalidomide — and their eagerness for human experimentation, which the U.S. military and the newly created CIA readily engaged in on a major scale.  Every bizarre and gruesome notion of how a person might be assassinated or an army immobilized was of interest to their research. New weapons were developed, including VX and Agent Orange.  A new drive to visit and weaponize outerspace was created, and former Nazis were put in charge of a new agency called NASA.......In 1947 Operation Paperclip, still rather small, was in danger of being terminated. Instead, Truman transformed the U.S. military with the National Security Act, and created the best ally that Operation Paperclip could want: the CIA. Now the program took off, intentionally and willfully, with the full knowledge and understanding of the same U.S. President who had declared as a senator that if the Russians were winning the U.S. should help the Germans, and vice versa,....'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

'*Operation Paperclip (originally Operation Overcast) (1949–1990) was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which over 1,500 German scientists, technicians, and engineers from Nazi Germany and other foreign countries were brought to the United States for employment in the aftermath of World War II.[SUP][1][/SUP] It was conducted by the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA), and in the context of the burgeoning Cold War....'

*That last link carries a list of names of German/Nazi scientists who were brought over but none of the recognizable names like Hess for example.


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## BobF (Aug 7, 2015)

That is an impressive post for sure.   But for the very dangerous leaders that I thought we  had already separated and had trials for them, I see no problem with those folks having been related to some rather nasty German units.   If they had the opportunity to come to the US and have respectable jobs, why not?   Their government they worked for was now gone and a new opportunity in the US or where ever must have looked good to them.

I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school back then, now called middle school.   I never felt threatened by them and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also living in the US.   Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks.   In my working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US.   One was a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk with.   In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.

Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do some heavy duty work for the US government.   I think they were happy to come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 7, 2015)

Many Nazi's did wind up working with the Allies with the process being started before Paper Clip or the Nuremberg War trials. Goes back to hindsight there and then. It's not a pleasant or most just way to do business. But it was practical just as giving hit man gangsters witness protection and immunity to testify for much bigger fish and entire networks. And if an ex Nazi did come forward and offer you more information in a couple of interviews than in years of investigations I regrettably might take that deal. The capture of leadership and elimination of the movement/big picture operation was the goal.  One of the things the Allies were worried about in Europe and Japan was the peace, not only leadership but knowledge of the local infrastructure and public services in which an ex military officer or political official could actually help along with having influence over local populations ie most will trust and work harder for one of their own compared to an outsider.


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## Cookie (Aug 7, 2015)

Underock, Nanking was performed by Japanese military not the citizens of Japan. Brainwashed citizens and foot soldiers are just pawns and always the last to know what is really going on and why in the War Games planned and played by the military and governments of the world, then and now.  And the people will continue to pay with their lives in the never ending chess games played by the ruling powers.


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## Debby (Aug 7, 2015)

BobF said:


> That is an impressive post for sure.   But for the very dangerous leaders that I thought we  had already separated and had trials for them, I see no problem with those folks having been related to some rather nasty German units.   If they had the opportunity to come to the US and have respectable jobs, why not?   Their government they worked for was now gone and a new opportunity in the US or where ever must have looked good to them.
> 
> I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school back then, now called middle school.   I never felt threatened by them and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also living in the US.   Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks.   In my working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US.   One was a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk with.   In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.
> 
> Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do some heavy duty work for the US government.   I think they were happy to come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.




Not an impressive post by any means, just cut and paste.  And I understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'.   Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we project.  But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any of this....until I have to again  and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet!  Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon!


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## WhatInThe (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Underock, Nanking was performed by Japanese military not the citizens of Japan. Brainwashed citizens and foot soldiers are just pawns and always the last to know what is really going on and why in the War Games planned and played by the military and governments of the world, then and now.  And the people will continue to pay with their lives in the never ending chess games played by the ruling powers.



But those soldiers probably had a mindset going into the military. The military gives one discipline and keeps one motivated. But motivation for non military deeds comes from civilian life & attitudes. I've always heard the Koreans, Chinese and Japan all hated each other with a passion. They might from the Orient to a westerner but there were distinct differences in opinion, treatment and history amongst those three.

Embarrassed to use this example  but the soldiers that got caught urinating on dead corpses in Afghanistan probably already had a preset attitude about Muslims and Afghanees from civilian life. There existing lack respect made military discipline that much easier to ignore or overcome. Same for the soldiers in Japan. Old sayings like you can judge a society on how they treat their prisoners or conquered in this case is pretty accurate.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Underock, Nanking was performed by Japanese military not the citizens of Japan. Brainwashed citizens and foot soldiers are just pawns and always the last to know what is really going on and why in the War Games planned and played by the military and governments of the world, then and now.  And the people will continue to pay with their lives in the never ending chess games played by the ruling powers.



The soldiers in the Japanese military _were _the citizens of Japan. Excuse me for saying so, but you really seem desperate to excuse the Japanese for any culpability what so ever, while accusing the US, ( not to mention myself ), of being "inhuman". The decision to drop the bomb, whether right or wrong, was not made lightly. There wereat least _some_ good reasons to consider it. Whether there were alternatives to the act is still being debated. It _was _a horrific thing. No doubt about that. It must never be allowed to happen again. I do have compassion for those who died for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am worked up about this after watching a Japanese survivor describe it as an "inhuman" act. It pales in comparison to the multiple inhuman acts committed by the Japanese throughout the war which they started.  Hiroshima comes off as humane when compared to Nanking. There were more people killed there in a six day orgy of blood and horror. Would you rather be incinerated in an eye blink, or watch your pregnant daughter have her belly slit open and the fetus thrown in the fire, while you wait your turn? I'm sorry to be crude here, but I'm a just a little bit put off by whose calling who "inhuman".


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## Cookie (Aug 7, 2015)

I think you have been indoctrinated in the same way that the Japanese were indoctrinated.  Plus your old school atrophied thinking has left you unable to be objective.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I think you have been indoctrinated in the same way that the Japanese were indoctrinated.  Plus your old school atrophied thinking has left you unable to be objective.



I disagree Cookie and I would argue that as it relates to this it is you who is not objective.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I think you have been indoctrinated in the same way that the Japanese were indoctrinated.  Plus your old school atrophied thinking has left you unable to be objective.



Preconceptions, assumptions, and stereotyping. Totally wrong. The documents are there. The photos are there. I was there. You were not. With all due respect, I think you haven't got the slightest idea what you are talking about, but we're good. I accept your non-apology. I'm going to go cut up a puppy for supper now.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I disagree Cookie and I would argue that as it relates to this it is you who is not objective.



Careful, Jim. Your atrophy is showing.


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## imp (Aug 7, 2015)

It is now illegal to cut up a puppy, Underock! Don't get caught!    imp


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## imp (Aug 7, 2015)

*My Sage Observation*

All who argue against those sadly misinformed or misunderstanding, are entering a dead-end street.    imp


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## Josiah (Aug 7, 2015)

I confess reading about the Manhattan Project really has me fascinated and here I'm talking about the science, the engineering, and the management of such a Herculean undertaking. I just downloaded the Kindle edition of The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes’s Pulitzer Prize-winning book which details the science, the people, and the socio-political realities that led to the development of the atomic bomb.


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## Shalimar (Aug 7, 2015)

We are reduced to this because we disagree? So much for debate. Hmmm. Disappointing, gentlelmen. Puppies indeed. As for being in the Pacific, one of my aunts, a nurse, was interred. I have seen the keloid scars on her back. Until her death several years ago, she spoke out unflinchingly against what she considered to be the anathema of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. She also attended many Hiroshima memorials, where she spoke in fluent Japanese to weeping survivors, who kissed ner hands. What an orator she was! Interesting she was able to find compassion, where others find it more challenging.


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> We are reduced to this because we disagree? So much for debate. Hmmm. Disappointing, gentlelmen. Puppies indeed. As for being in the Pacific, one of my aunts, a nurse, was interred. I have seen the keloid scars on her back. Until her death several years ago, she spoke out unflinchingly against what she considered to be the anathema of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. She also attended many Hiroshima memorials, where she spoke in fluent Japanese to weeping survivors, who kissed ner hands. What an orator she was! Interesting she was able to find compassion, where others find it more challenging.



Let's review here. I've been described as "inhuman", incapable of compassion, and so mentally atrophied as to be incapable of judgement. So much for debate.

Shalimar, I return the disappointment. Don't tell me I have no compassion. Nowhere in my posts, will you find me jumping for joy because we dropped the bomb on "those dirty Japs, and they got just what they deserved." I have said over and over again, that it was a terrible thing, and a real tragedy that so many innocents had to die. My complaint is having Americans portrayed as "inhuman" by people who raised the term to a whole new level. I keep bringing up Nanking, and the topic gets swept under the rug, because it doesn't fit the popularized image of the Japanese as victims. It was a far more horrific experience than the bomb by many magnitudes. There were thousands more killed in whatever manner could be conceived to cause the most suffering. Far from being unavoidable casualties from a bomb blast, it was deliberate premeditated murder. If you haven't already, do a little reading on the subject, or better yet, go past the warnings about graphic images, and view a few pictures. When you stop throwing up, come back and tell me that the bomb was more inhuman. Why isn't there a memorial service in Nanking every year? Could it be that its O.K to kill Chinese? I repeat; Nanking is acknowledged to be the single worst atrocity of WWII. It was just one of a continuous stream committed by the Japanese during WWII...and the perpetrators get to call _us _inhuman?  I repeat; I love today's Japanese. Better citizens of the world than we are by far, but they are not the Japanese of WWII.


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## BobF (Aug 7, 2015)

Debby said:


> Not an impressive post by any means, *just cut and paste*.  And I understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'.   Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we project.  But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any of this....until I have to again  and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet!  Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon!



Sorry Debby, you just have no idea of what I wrote if you think it was all cut and paste.   Every word I wrote came directly from my memory of the WWII ending and the differences it made in my life in my home town and state.   

Actually pretty close to Canada at that time too.   There are plenty of pretty nice folks in Canada.   Most of them in fact as I remember, but some apparently are way off stride from the rest of their country.   Now that I am living in southern Arizona I find many Canadians here also.   All I have met are pretty nice folks.   The ones I meet here are from the west coast area, east of Vancouver Canada.   Lots of nice people I have met visiting Canada in several western provinces but not much east of what I visited east of Detroit in Canadian  area of Quebec, and those that are now sharing the US.


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## Shalimar (Aug 7, 2015)

With respect, I think I will pass on the atrocity pictures. I have witnessed far too many dead children as it is. Pics do not induce vomiting, but they do make me weep. I weep for all the tortured/murdered innocents, in and out of war. J'accuse all the monsters who perpetuate  such horror. It is never excusable, however politically expedient. For some of us it is personal. It should be for us all. I think I need to exit this thread before I need to therapise myself. Pax.


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## Shalimar (Aug 7, 2015)

Bob, I am pleased that you have met some nice Canadians from my neck of the woods. We left coasters are an independent bunch for sure. Individualists to the core. Outspoken, but loyal beyond belief. Have a good weekend in sunny Arizona!


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, I think I will pass on the atrocity pictures. I have witnessed far too many dead children as it is. Pics do not induce vomiting, but they do make me weep. I weep for all the tortured/murdered innocents, in and out of war. J'accuse all the monsters who perpetuate  such horror. It is never excusable, however politically expedient. For some of us it is personal. It should be for us all. I think I need to exit this thread before I need to therapise myself. Pax.



This inhuman, compassionless, mentally atrophied fellow human being, weeps with you. :rose:


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## imp (Aug 7, 2015)

Change the pace a bit: Not often mentioned, as a young man Emperor Hirohito attended college in the United States before the War. He travelled extensively, seeing the nearly endless agricultural ability, industrial might, city after city having huge manufacturing capability. 

His recommendation to Japan's Military Leaders was that to win a war against the United States was an impossibility. Of course, his opinion was ignored. A much smarter man he was, than the true leaders of Japan.    imp


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## AZ Jim (Aug 7, 2015)

This from a yahoo site discussing the atom bombing of Japan:

"When one enters the Hiroshima Peace Museum, he is met with a very  confusing statement:  "In the morning of 7 August 1945, the United  States dropped the world's first nuclear bomb on Hiroshima..."  Nothing  is mentioned of the Japanese control of Korea and China, the rape of  Nanking, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the concentration camps throughout  Asia where many soldiers and civilians died of the thousands of young  women who were taken from their families (some as young as 12) to serve  as "comfort women" for the Japanese military.  Even as late as today,  the Japanese history books cannot describe Japan's horror of Asia for  the 30+ years before Hiroshima.  I lived in Japan for nearly 7 years and  the Japanese people of today are among the greatest in the world.   Unfortunately, they are still confused why so many people dislike them.   Until the Japanese government can come clean about its horrible  history, they will keep alive this debate.  Regardless how much the  people want to believe, the Japanese were never victims during WWII.   Unfortunately, however, they have been victims of their government's  refusal to be honest since the end of the war."


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## Underock1 (Aug 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> This from a yahoo site discussing the atom bombing of Japan:
> 
> "When one enters the Hiroshima Peace Museum, he is met with a very  confusing statement:  "In the morning of 7 August 1945, the United  States dropped the world's first nuclear bomb on Hiroshima..."  Nothing  is mentioned of the Japanese control of Korea and China, the rape of  Nanking, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the concentration camps throughout  Asia where many soldiers and civilians died of the thousands of young  women who were taken from their families (some as young as 12) to serve  as "comfort women" for the Japanese military.  Even as late as today,  the Japanese history books cannot describe Japan's horror of Asia for  the 30+ years before Hiroshima.  I lived in Japan for nearly 7 years and  the Japanese people of today are among the greatest in the world.   Unfortunately, they are still confused why so many people dislike them.   Until the Japanese government can come clean about its horrible  history, they will keep alive this debate.  Regardless how much the  people want to believe, the Japanese were never victims during WWII.   Unfortunately, however, they have been victims of their government's  refusal to be honest since the end of the war."



Thank you, Jim. That's all I'm trying to say. Compassion for the dead innocents? Of course. Being declared inhuman by those responsible for the grossest inhumanity? Not acceptable.


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## Underock1 (Aug 8, 2015)

Just a post script. There _is _a memorial museum to the Nanking Massacre. Quite a large, depressing one, in fact. The first memorial service was held last year. The two governments are trying to improve relationships for economic reasons, but Japan's refusal to accept responsibility for the atrocity and many others in WWII is causing a lot of resentment among the Chinese public.


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## imp (Aug 8, 2015)

* "The Making of the Atomic Bomb, Richard Rhodes’s Pulitzer Prize-winning book"

*Regarding the book above: I have read it through, cover to cover, perhaps three times now. I use it to refer back when some particular technical detail escapes me. Much of it's content is detail, carefully researched, apparently, for it is quite difficult to search out any of his facts and come up with opposing results. The descriptive portrayals of important people involved in the Manhattan Project is both vivid, and humorous, at times. 

I highly recommend the book.    imp


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## Debby (Aug 8, 2015)

BobF said:


> Sorry Debby, you just have no idea of what I wrote if you think it was all cut and paste.   Every word I wrote came directly from my memory of the WWII ending and the differences it made in my life in my home town and state.
> 
> Actually pretty close to Canada at that time too.   There are plenty of pretty nice folks in Canada.   Most of them in fact as I remember, but some apparently are way off stride from the rest of their country.   Now that I am living in southern Arizona I find many Canadians here also.   All I have met are pretty nice folks.   The ones I meet here are from the west coast area, east of Vancouver Canada.   Lots of nice people I have met visiting Canada in several western provinces but not much east of what I visited east of Detroit in Canadian  area of Quebec, and those that are now sharing the US.




Bob you've lost track of how this conversation went.

I said (or someone else did) that the US imported Nazi war criminals to do scientific and doctoral work for America including working on the bombs I believe.
You asked for a list.
I cut and pasted two links that proved it (Operation Paperclip)  happened and one of them included names of individual war criminals.  #64
You said 'that's an impressive list....' #65
I said, 'not impressive at all, just cut and paste' #68

And now here you are telling me I have no idea how much thought you put into your post, and not simply cut and paste......and now I'm getting the impression that your inference about some Canadians (not being as nice as the ones you've met) is being directed at me, maybe Shalimar and Cookie.   Seeing as how I haven't met you except for here in a couple threads, it's easy to see where my understanding of that comment is going.  

Or am I wrong?  Because while I am living in Eastern Canada right now, I was born in Calgary and lived 90% of my life just outside of Vancouver and will be going 'home' as soon as this house sells.  So which is it?  Am I an ignorant ass or one of the nice ones?


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## imp (Aug 8, 2015)

*"...the US imported Nazi war criminals to do scientific and doctoral work for America including working on the bombs I believe."

*Few Nazi leaders or criminals for that matter, were actually scientists. The most dedicated and scientifically-trained minds originated in Budapest, not Germany. In fact, our FBI often referred to them, while working on the Manhattan Project, as "The Hungarian Conspiracy". The scientists, Oppenheimer, Szilard, Bethe, Slotin, unanimously resented the continual spying on their efforts by the cops. All of the important minds working there had already obtained their Doctorate Degrees previous to coming to America.    imp


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## Debby (Aug 8, 2015)

'...*Operation Paperclip (originally Operation Overcast) (1949–1990) was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) program in which over 1,500 German scientists, technicians, and engineers from Nazi Germany and other foreign countries were brought to the United States for employment in the aftermath of World War II....*Truman's order expressly excluded anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi Party, and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazi militarism". However, those restrictions would have rendered ineligible most of the leading scientists the JIOA had identified for recruitment, among them rocket scientistsWernher von Braun, Kurt H. Debus and Arthur Rudolph, and the physician Hubertus Strughold, each earlier classified as a "menace to the security of the Allied Forces....To circumvent President Truman's anti-Nazi order and the Allied Potsdam and Yalta agreements, the JIOA worked independently to create false employment and political biographies for the scientists. The JIOA also expunged from the public record the scientists' Nazi Party memberships and régime affiliations. Once "bleached" of their Nazism, the scientists were granted security clearances by the U.S. government to work in the United States.".[SUP][4][/SUP]*'     *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip*

You're right, not all were scientists.   But they were professionals in their fields and rather than convict them of the crimes they were involved in, they were brought to the US and where needed, fake id's and political bios were concocted.        *http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nment-program-to-hire-nazi-war-criminals.html

It is what it is, isn't it.


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## Shalimar (Aug 8, 2015)

Debby are you coming back to The Promised Land, aka the west coast? Where are you planning on settling? I am not certain if any of us Canucks qualify as the "nice Canadians" previously mentioned. lol.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Debby are you coming back to The Promised Land, aka the west coast? Where are you planning on settling? I am not certain if any of us Canucks qualify as the "nice Canadians" previously mentioned. lol.




YOU both are....


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## BobF (Aug 8, 2015)

I think we have a misunderstanding going on.
.............................................................
 		                                                                                                                                                    Yesterday, 01:15 PM                                                                                                                                                                                                     #68 


 *Debby* 






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 			 				 					Join DateAug 2014LocationEast coast of CanadaPosts2,073 					 					 				







 Originally Posted by *BobF* 

 
 				That is an impressive post for sure.   But for  the very dangerous leaders that I thought we  had already separated and  had trials for them, I see no problem with those folks having been  related to some rather nasty German units.   If they had the opportunity  to come to the US and have respectable jobs, why not?   Their  government they worked for was now gone and a new opportunity in the US  or where ever must have looked good to them.

I met several of them when I was just a young person in Jr High school  back then, now called middle school.   I never felt threatened by them  and the town I lived in also had a large group of new Italians also  living in the US.   Also a bunch of grateful and friendly folks.   In my  working career I also met many after WWII settlers in the US.   One was  a German pilot, from Poland, and he was actually a humorous one to talk  with.   In spite of the hateful things of the war, I think the US did  quite well with the ones that decided to stay in the US.

Of course, I never met those high level scientist that came over to do  some heavy duty work for the US government.   I think they were happy to  come and live in the US rather that be taken in by Russia.



.........................................
*Not an impressive post by any means, just cut and paste.*  And I  understand your point WhatInThe, just as I've come to understand that  all governments are in the business of expediency or 'whatever works'.    Even my own government, my 'peace keeping' government has been involved  in a couple of things that I personally feel are despicable and fall  far outside the reputation that we Canadians would like to feel that we  project.  But it is what it is right and the only thing left for me is  to look forward to the day when I truly no longer have to care about any  of this....until I have to again  and maybe then I'll pick a different time or a different planet!  Toodle-loo folks and enjoy the afternoon! 				​ 


.............................................

Somehow I took your comment about cut and paste as meaning my post.   Sorry about that as I know see that I took it to mean my post rather than your post.

My mistake, I apologize.  BobF


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## Debby (Aug 8, 2015)

Well that's the plan Shalimar, but unlike your real estate market, ours is in the toilet or as my grandson once said, 'it's a doom mummy, it's a doom'!  We've had our lovely property listed since May 1st, had six showings early on and nothing since.  So who knows when we'll get to move.  We would be moving to Langley I think, because my mom who is 80, lives in Surrey and then I'll be able to drive her to appointments and such when she finally looses her license.  So truthfully, I'd have to say, 'yes, someday we'll move back to the Promised Land'.

And thanks Jim for the badge of approval.  Shalimar and I are very grateful for the 'props'.


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## Shalimar (Aug 8, 2015)

PRops! Yesssss!


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## Shalimar (Aug 8, 2015)

Sounds cool Debby, just a hop skip and a jump by ferry from where I live between Nanaimo and Victoria.


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## Debby (Aug 8, 2015)

Both my daughters lived for a while on the Island.  The youngest was in Victoria and the other lived near Qualicum.  Beautiful places there, that's for sure.  When we finally do get to make the move, one thing I want to do is is Butchart Gardens.  I think I was there once when I was a kid (school field trip) but at that age it was only a highlight because it meant a day out of school!  At this point, I just have to content myself with pictures of 'home' on my Pinterest board and I used to watch that tv show Supernatural because I got to see lots of places that I recognized.

Even that old Ashton Kutcher movies 'The Butterfly Effect' had a couple scenes in a little roadside cafe that was about five miles from where I lived.  Ah home, I miss you so much!  I'm a BC girl who got confused and lost for a few years I think  but as Arnie once said, "I'll be back".


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## oakapple (Aug 12, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Let's review here. I've been described as "inhuman", incapable of compassion, and so mentally atrophied as to be incapable of judgement. So much for debate.
> 
> Shalimar, I return the disappointment. Don't tell me I have no compassion. Nowhere in my posts, will you find me jumping for joy because we dropped the bomb on "those dirty Japs, and they got just what they deserved." I have said over and over again, that it was a terrible thing, and a real tragedy that so many innocents had to die. My complaint is having Americans portrayed as "inhuman" by people who raised the term to a whole new level. I keep bringing up Nanking, and the topic gets swept under the rug, because it doesn't fit the popularized image of the Japanese as victims. It was a far more horrific experience than the bomb by many magnitudes. There were thousands more killed in whatever manner could be conceived to cause the most suffering. Far from being unavoidable casualties from a bomb blast, it was deliberate premeditated murder. If you haven't already, do a little reading on the subject, or better yet, go past the warnings about graphic images, and view a few pictures. When you stop throwing up, come back and tell me that the bomb was more inhuman. Why isn't there a memorial service in Nanking every year? Could it be that its O.K to kill Chinese? I repeat; Nanking is acknowledged to be the single worst atrocity of WWII. It was just one of a continuous stream committed by the Japanese during WWII...and the perpetrators get to call _us _inhuman?  I repeat; I love today's Japanese. Better citizens of the world than we are by far, but they are not the Japanese of WWII.


An excellent post, and awful as the nuclear bombs were, I have to agree with this post by Underock.


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## oakapple (Aug 12, 2015)

Sorry to post that when the thread seems to have moved on, but it was in reply to OP.


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## Underock1 (Aug 12, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Sorry to post that when the thread seems to have moved on, but it was in reply to OP.



Thank you anyway, oakapple. I don't know whether you read my last post on this thread. There actually _is _a memorial museum in Nanking. Quite a horrific one, at that. They do hold services annually. The Japanese attempt to white wash the event is causing current difficulties in their relationship with China. 
I have been thinking about this whole memorial business generally, lately. Are we mourning the dead, or celebrating hate? "Let us never forget"? What do we really achieve by that? Don't forget to hate these people? "These people" are dead! We know how destructive never forgiving is in our personal relationships. No different with nations. We are still fighting the Crusades a thousand years later. Maybe its time to confine these things to the history books, and pay attention to our current problems.


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## Butterfly (Aug 12, 2015)

oakapple said:


> An excellent post, and awful as the nuclear bombs were, I have to agree with this post by Underock.



I do, as well.  You should hear what my neighbor, a 90-something WWII veteran who experienced the Japanese first hand in the Pacific theatre, has to say on the subject of "innocent victims."  He still bears scars of their compassionate treatment, both physically and mentally.


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## ~Lenore (Aug 12, 2015)

[h=2]Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?[/h]
*No, we could have just left the Japanese and our other enemies keep going, sorta like the current president is doing with Muslim terrorists.  Just let them keep moving and growing and what ever happens happens.  It's not our problem. *


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## QuickSilver (Aug 12, 2015)

~Lenore said:


> *Did we really have to drop atomic bombs on Japan?*
> 
> 
> *No, we could have just left the Japanese and our other enemies keep going, sorta like the current president is doing with Muslim terrorists.  Just let them keep moving and growing and what ever happens happens.  It's not our problem. *




Bomb bomb bomb........  Bomb bomb IRAN....


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## Shalimar (Aug 12, 2015)

Butterfly, my aunt, a nurse, was interred by the Japanese. I have seen the keloid scars on her back. She was not embittered by her imprisonment, but spent the rest of her life working for peace, including speaking out against the bombings.


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## Jackie22 (Aug 12, 2015)

Regarding President Obama's record on terrorism, I'd say he uses his brain instead of a bomb or war....The scope of Obama’s counter-terrorism successes06/17/15 08:03 AM By Steve BenenWhenever the political world’s attention turns to matters of national security and terrorism, Republican criticisms of President Obama feature familiar talking points. The president isn’t “aggressive” enough, they say. His approach must be “tougher,” like the policies adopted by the Bush/Cheney administration. Obama’s counter-terrorism policies are so ineffective, the right insists, that the White House won’t even use the specific words – “radical Islamic terrorism” – that Republicans demand to hear. But the gap between GOP rhetoric and national-security reality continues to grow. We learned yesterday, for example, that a U.S. airstrike killed Nasir al-Wuhaysh, al Qaeda’s No. 2 official – and the top guy in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. As Rachel noted on the show last night, his death is a “huge deal,” especially given the terrorist plots al-Wuhaysh has helped oversee. NBC News had a helpful report yesterday on the frequency with which U.S. strikes have successfully targeted al Qaeda’s top leaders.Since Navy SEALs killed [Osama bin Laden] in 2011, American drone strikes have taken out seven potential candidates to succeed him as the leader of what was once the most-feared terror gang. The targeted attacks started within weeks of bin Laden’s death. Three al Qaeda higher-ups were killed in June, August and September of 2011, followed by another three in late 2012 and early 2013…. Now, the death of 38-year-old Wuhayshi – killed in a strike on Friday – is seen by American intelligence officials as a major blow to al Qaeda, which is struggling with decimated ranks and ideological competition from the Islamic State.I’m reminded of this piece in The Atlantic last fall, when Jeffrey Goldberg, hardly a liberal, wrote, “Obama has become the greatest terrorist hunter in the history of the presidency.” It’s a detail Republicans simply don’t know what to do with, so they ignore it and pretend the president is indifferent to matters of national security, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. While GOP officials and candidates continue to insist that what really matters is word-choice, Obama’s counter-terrorism strategy includes so many successes, they no longer generate much attention. Notice, for example, just how little chatter al-Wuhaysh’s death garnered yesterday.more here...http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-scope-obamas-counter-terrorism-successes


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## WhatInThe (Aug 12, 2015)

*private company no better than Japanese military*

In regards to the entire country of Japan vs the Japanese military.

A Japanese Company; Mitsubishi apologized to US pows for having to work in their mines in World War II as slave labor.

http://news.yahoo.com/70-years-wwii-japanese-firm-apologize-us-vets-144146733.html

For the most part the entire country of Japan contributed to their war effort. When private companies use slave labor the distinction between military and civilian becomes much less defined. 50,000 POWs were forced to work for Japanese companies during the war.


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## Cookie (Aug 12, 2015)

Dr. Strangelove; or How to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb


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## AZ Jim (Aug 12, 2015)

I do not mind debating this issue with anyone who was alive at the time but I resent today's youth who are only aware of things as they are now, in their lifetimes making rash statements about how _"wrong_" we were.


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## BobF (Aug 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I do not mind debating this issue with anyone who was alive at the time but I resent today's youth who are only aware of things as they are now, in their lifetimes making rash statements about how _"wrong_" we were.



I agree with your comments Jim.


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## BobF (Aug 12, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Regarding President Obama's record on terrorism, I'd say he uses his brain instead of a bomb or war....The scope of Obama’s counter-terrorism successes06/17/15 08:03 AM By Steve BenenWhenever the political world’s attention turns to matters of national security and terrorism, Republican criticisms of President Obama feature familiar talking points. The president isn’t “aggressive” enough, they say. His approach must be “tougher,” like the policies adopted by the Bush/Cheney administration. Obama’s counter-terrorism policies are so ineffective, the right insists, that the White House won’t even use the specific words – “radical Islamic terrorism” – that Republicans demand to hear. But the gap between GOP rhetoric and national-security reality continues to grow. We learned yesterday, for example, that a U.S. airstrike killed Nasir al-Wuhaysh, al Qaeda’s No. 2 official – and the top guy in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. As Rachel noted on the show last night, his death is a “huge deal,” especially given the terrorist plots al-Wuhaysh has helped oversee. NBC News had a helpful report yesterday on the frequency with which U.S. strikes have successfully targeted al Qaeda’s top leaders.Since Navy SEALs killed [Osama bin Laden] in 2011, American drone strikes have taken out seven potential candidates to succeed him as the leader of what was once the most-feared terror gang. The targeted attacks started within weeks of bin Laden’s death. Three al Qaeda higher-ups were killed in June, August and September of 2011, followed by another three in late 2012 and early 2013…. Now, the death of 38-year-old Wuhayshi – killed in a strike on Friday – is seen by American intelligence officials as a major blow to al Qaeda, which is struggling with decimated ranks and ideological competition from the Islamic State.I’m reminded of this piece in The Atlantic last fall, when Jeffrey Goldberg, hardly a liberal, wrote, “Obama has become the greatest terrorist hunter in the history of the presidency.” It’s a detail Republicans simply don’t know what to do with, so they ignore it and pretend the president is indifferent to matters of national security, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. While GOP officials and candidates continue to insist that what really matters is word-choice, Obama’s counter-terrorism strategy includes so many successes, they no longer generate much attention. Notice, for example, just how little chatter al-Wuhaysh’s death garnered yesterday.more here...http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-scope-obamas-counter-terrorism-successes




One of the arguments about the way Obama has gone about killing suspected future leaders should be like this.   First we should try to capture them and hold them in a jail as we try to find as much as we can about their activities and their future plans.   It is known that not all can be captured but at least we would be working on the future plans of these folks.

Now it would be even more so of a way of understanding about these folks that are trying to rearrange all of the middle east and have plans to change the US too.   Just plain old killing suspected or known leaders is not the only way to try to get ahead of them.   Eventually we, the US, will have to pick up arms and really fight them off.   We do not want them on the US lands at all.   But it seems we do have some sympathizers here for sure.


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