# What Lies Ahead



## drifter

What do yo believe? Is there a life after this one? Is there anything to Reincarnation. Or when we die, is that the end? This is something people our age think about from time to time. Of course I don't know. I do think it's a great waste of resources if this life is all there is. Care to comment?


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## SeaBreeze

I'm not sure, but I lean to thinking that this is it.  I've been with several close relatives when they passed and I felt that they may have been still there with me, knowing my sorrow.  I'm open minded, and have welcome them to visit me in any way possible, and that has never happened.  Maybe if I had an experience, I would be more sure, right now I don't know.  Nobody has ever come back from the dead, and some that claim to are not always believable, IMO.  I think as we get older, a lot of us think about things like this, reincarnation, past lives, it's nice to think there may be something more after this life on earth.


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## Lon

I think death is the END---Finito!!! I like the idea of Reincarnation but really don't believe in it. What ever is left of us at our demise may be remembered in written or spoken form and it the memories of those left behind.


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## AprilT

Sure, by passive transport, your leftovers will nourish the earth, worms or something and something might spring forth from there, hence you re rebirth in some shape or form.


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## Josiah

The time after my death will exactly resemble the time before my conception.


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## Cole Slaw

It would be nice to believe in heaven. I wish I could. But simply ceasing to exist would be ok with me.


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## hollydolly

I agree cole slaw If I simply cease to exist and I know nothing about it..no pain , no memories no awareness then fine by me...but also like you drifter I don't actually see the point of life in our form for this to be all there is...after all, fauna and flora are there to feed the earth whereas we as the human species  seem to be here just to take from it, and no other real purpose, so I wonder if there is a reason for our existence..is this life an apprenticeship for something else I wonder?


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## oldman

I believe that we each have a spirit and that when we die, our spirit is released from our body. Since I do believe in the Bible and ever-lasting life, I believe that our spirit is joined with those other spirits that have gone on before us and have lived their life here on Earth accordingly. If I have lived and obeyed my God's words, then my spirit will go to a good place. If I haven't been good, then the opposite happens.


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## hollydolly

See I don't believe there are hell fires and burnings after you die if you've been bad Oldman...not inferring your belief is wrong, but just that I don't believe in hell and damnation..

I kinda like to believe for many people hell is what they're living here on earth, and that somehow we're sent back time and time again until we become what ever is expected of us to enable us to live a more peaceful existence, whatever/wherever that may be..


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## Ameriscot

I have no idea what happens but I'm open. There are too many unexplained things that happen in the world like precognition, etc. that makes me think there must be_ something_.  I think we all have a spirit or soul or whatever you want to call it.  The concept of karma makes sense to me.  Maybe even reincarnation.  The idea of dead loved ones being in some nice place called heaven also appeals to me.  

None of us know what happens. We can believe what we like, but there is no proof one way or the other.


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## rkunsaw

This is it. Better make the most of it and not waste this life preparing for a future life that doesn't exist.


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## oldman

hollydolly said:


> See I don't believe there are hell fires and burnings after you die if you've been bad Oldman...not inferring your belief is wrong, but just that I don't believe in hell and damnation..
> 
> I kinda like to believe for many people hell is what they're living here on earth, and that somehow we're sent back time and time again until we become what ever is expected of us to enable us to live a more peaceful existence, whatever/wherever that may be..



I didn't mention anything about Heaven or Hell, or burnings or fire. I just believe that a person's soul will have peace, if they have done the right things while in body.


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## Jackie22

I really do not know and neither does anyone else, I just try to live my life as true and morally as I can, do not believe in the hell and brimstone that some believe in at all.


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## Ameriscot

Jackie22 said:


> I really do not know and neither does anyone else, I just try to live my life as true and morally as I can, do not believe in the hell and brimstone that some believe in at all.



Hell is definitely off my list of possible options.


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## Glinda

I'm not a follower of organized religion so I don't believe in the heaven/hell my parents tried to instill in me as a child.  However, I have had some lucid dreams and unusual experiences over the years that make me tend to believe there is a soul and it goes on in some form after physical death.  Of course, this is not enough to persuade my S.O., the scientist, and he gently scoffs at me.  He is an admirer of Richard Dawkins, who has written many books about atheism.  I respect Dawkins.  He has some valid points IMO.  But I stop short of calling myself an atheist.


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## Jackie22

One of my biggest gripes against religion is the indoctrination of children.


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## Ameriscot

Jackie22 said:


> One of my biggest gripes against religion is the indoctrination of children.



As a kid I was terrified of committing any sins that were bad enough that I'd go to hell and burn for eternity.  Not a thing you should scare a 7 year old with!


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## avrp

At times like this I wish I were articulate, but here's my best.

...we all have the right to our beliefs. Free will. 
How can you not believe in God? All the intricate beauty in this awesome universe...the complexity of the human being in every aspect of functioning.
and secondly, how can anyone actually think that they can be good enough? Never.
Trust Christ.


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## Lon

Josiah said:


> The time after my death will exactly resemble the time before my conception.



I like that, and believe it.


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## Lon

hollydolly said:


> I agree cole slaw If I simply cease to exist and I know nothing about it..no pain , no memories no awareness then fine by me...but also like you drifter I don't actually see the point of life in our form for this to be all there is...after all, fauna and flora are there to feed the earth whereas we as the human species  seem to be here just to take from it, and no other real purpose, so I wonder if there is a reason for our existence..is this life an apprenticeship for something else I wonder?



Why does there have to be a reason for our existence? The reason for a human beings existence is no different than the reason for a cockaroach's existence.
illo's


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## Lon

marty said:


> At times like this I wish I were articulate, but here's my best.
> 
> ...we all have the right to our beliefs. Free will.
> How can you not believe in God? All the intricate beauty in this awesome universe...the complexity of the human being in every aspect of functioning.
> and secondly, how can anyone actually think that they can be good enough? Never.
> Trust Christ.



Believe it or not Marty, but I have as much comfort and joy in my non belief as I am sure that you do in your belief.


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## Josiah

hollydolly said:


> I agree cole slaw If I simply cease to exist and I know nothing about it..no pain , no memories no awareness then fine by me...but also like you drifter I don't actually see the point of life in our form for this to be all there is...after all, fauna and flora are there to feed the earth whereas we as the human species  seem to be here just to take from it, and no other real purpose, so I wonder if there is a reason for our existence..is this life an apprenticeship for something else I wonder?



Last time I looked, Dolly, you fit squarely into the category of fauna, and a very pretty specimen too.


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## drifter

It looks like the majority here says that what we've got now is as good as its gonna get. I never believed in the pearly gates and as far as Hell is concerned, I'll never get any closer to it than the life I've lived here, which sometime has seemed a living hell. I thought maybe some of you had broke open the ice and found a new avenue or something I could consider. Let me say I didn't put this up lightly and I appreciate all your comments. Related to these comments I think is the story of "Freddie the Leaf" Any of you ever read that? A small book, maybe for kids, which I thought was a heck of a story. You all have left some good comments and I thank you.


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## pchrise

Wish I knew .


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## drifter

I do too. Maybe we all do. Cheers.


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## Pappy

For 77 years I've never really gave it much thought until the last few years. I think I tend to lean towards something out there. What it is, no one knows but there is so many questions I would love to find an answer to sometime.


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## drifter

Me, too, Pappy. I feel there's much we don't know.


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## Debby

drifter said:


> It looks like the majority here says that what we've got now is as good as its gonna get. I never believed in the pearly gates and as far as Hell is concerned, I'll never get any closer to it than the life I've lived here, which sometime has seemed a living hell. I thought maybe some of you had broke open the ice and found a new avenue or something I could consider. Let me say I didn't put this up lightly and I appreciate all your comments. Related to these comments I think is the story of "Freddie the Leaf" Any of you ever read that? A small book, maybe for kids, which I thought was a heck of a story. You all have left some good comments and I thank you.




SeaBreeze commented here that she'd never heard of any believable accounts but there are any number of books that talk about near death experiences, what happened and how the people were changed by the experience in a profoundly spiritual way as a result.  Cases of blind people who report that while they are dead, they can see, who is standing where, what the doctors did, what the instruments looked like, colours......where dentures are put away while a cardiac arrest patient is being worked on after their hearts have stopped!  

Dr. Raymond L. Moody wrote Life After Life in the 70's and based on a multitude of patients that he questioned after they reported having an NDE.  And then there's Dr. Eben Alexander who had an experience about 8 years ago and wrote about it in Proof of Heaven.  Or Anita Morjani who wrote Dying To Be Me after she died from stage four cancer, was revived and when she was tested four days later, there was no longer any sign of the cancer in her body.  There are lots of books that talk about what happens after we die, you just have to get them and read them.

I also have a book written by an investigative author, Chris Carter, that explains in great detail why the usual excuses that doctors use to dismiss the possibility that we survive our bodies deaths, are wrong.  So the information is available.  But how many actually look for it?  My husband has always gotten creeped out by any talk of dying but as a result of my reading and our discussions, he's become more open to the possibility/probability that who we really are survives past the death of these bodies.

If you were interested Drifter and anyone else for that matter, I could tell you what I believe happens based on all of this.  But if not, that's cool too.


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## Shalimar

I do not believe in a traditional heaven or hell scenario,I am inclined to believe in Reincarnation due to some experiences I have had, ie knowing where things are in places I have never been.  I think life is school where we learn to be better human beings, and return again and again in order to achieve that goal. Souls? Absolutely, human and animal. If I am wrong,and all that awaits is the long sleep, no harm done, it is a great privilege to be alive and walk the earth for whatever time is given.


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## Debby

Based on multitudes of reports of NDE by people from all sorts of backgrounds, you're pretty accurate Shalimar.  Interestingly, after my last post I decided to look at Huffington Post and lo and behold, there is an article there about this very thing.  You can look at the link here:  http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/the-science-of-near-death-experiences/386231/

I also think that while you're partly right about life being a school it is the process also meant ,for a greater consciousness that is the source of everything, to have opportunity to gather experiences, to 'know itself'. We are in the process of evolving spiritually to eventually after many lifetimes to be the best that we can be.  Interestingly, there are some physicists whose developing ideas that this world could possibly be a holographic reality who are also suggesting that their science supports the possibility of NDE's and that NDE's are evidence of their suggestion that it's all a holographic reality.  NASA physicist Tom Campbell is one of them.


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## drifter

Interesting, my daughter recently emailed me the lengthy article from the Atlantic. As I understood it, the article doesn't bring up anything new except we now know some research is going on in Some few hospitals with heart patients.


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## Debby

Well that's a start isn't it?


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## oakapple

Well, I guess we will find out soon enough what lies beyond.


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## oakapple

Or not!


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## SeaBreeze

Debby said:


> SeaBreeze commented here that she'd never heard of any believable accounts but there are any number of books that talk about near death experiences, what happened and how the people were changed by the experience in a profoundly spiritual way as a result.
> If you were interested Drifter and anyone else for that matter, I could tell you what I believe happens based on all of this.  But if not, that's cool too.



I'm open minded as I said, and interested in hearing what everyone believes on this subject Debby, so please share your thoughts.  It's stories like this that don't help my belief in these matters.

According to the book's Amazon page: "When Alex awoke from a coma two months later, he had an incredible story to share. Of events at the accident scene and in the hospital while he was unconscious. Of the angels who took him through the gates of Heaven itself. And, most amazing of all ... of meeting and talking with Jesus."

The letter that Alex, who is now 16, wrote to publishers said he made the whole thing up: "I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough."

Two major Christian bookstores have announced plans to pull the books from stores.
In April, Alex's mother, Beth Malarkey, wrote on her blog that the book was untrue. She also implied that Alex had not received the proceeds from the book sales:
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...eaven-recants-everything-2015-1#ixzz3V2atMSfP


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## drifter

I suppose it's difficult for me to grasp the idea this conscienceness, knowing as we do, this life we hold dear, is merely an accident of nature and will and does suddenly end and that's all there is. I suppose I've always been a little slow.


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## AZ Jim

I believe death is it!  No "hereafter", neither heaven or hell. I do not believe the bible anymore than any other piece of fiction.  I respect others faith, but it's not for me.


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## Josiah

I'll certainly admit to being surprised, assuming that I'm capable amidst all the fire and brimstone.


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## Cookie

Not keen on the fire and brimstone stuff either, but I'm always open to learning more about NDEs which I find fascinating in their own way, and also notice there are so many similar accounts.


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## Ameriscot

oakapple said:


> Well, I guess we will find out soon enough what lies beyond.



Hey, I'm still a kid.  I'm just not ready to go yet!


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## Debby

SeaBreeze said:


> I'm open minded as I said, and interested in hearing what everyone believes on this subject Debby, so please share your thoughts.  It's stories like this that don't help my belief in these matters.
> 
> According to the book's Amazon page: "When Alex awoke from a coma two months later, he had an incredible story to share. Of events at the accident scene and in the hospital while he was unconscious. Of the angels who took him through the gates of Heaven itself. And, most amazing of all ... of meeting and talking with Jesus."
> 
> The letter that Alex, who is now 16, wrote to publishers said he made the whole thing up: "I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough."
> 
> Two major Christian bookstores have announced plans to pull the books from stores.
> In April, Alex's mother, Beth Malarkey, wrote on her blog that the book was untrue. She also implied that Alex had not received the proceeds from the book sales:
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...eaven-recants-everything-2015-1#ixzz3V2atMSfP




Yeah there are bound to be stories like that, just like I've heard of guys who had no training but were being allowed to work 'as doctors' in clinics because they had a good line.  But that doesn't take anything away from the real doctors does it?  There are any number of books written by people or by researchers (doctors) who've collected case studies of people who've died in various ways and then miraculously come back.  Anita Moorjani, Dr. Eben Alexander were two cases that come to mind immediately and then here is a link to an old movie about Dannion Brinkly who was electrocuted and then came back a changed man:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77lc0yasjYc

There is a foundation called NDERF which was set up to collect stories of peoples experiences.  You might find something interesting there too.  http://www.nderf.org/site_index.htm


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## drifter

Thanks again for your replies. I stress, if not before, then now, my interest has not been aliened to any religious connotation, and is not Bible oriented. The whole thing seems improbable that life as we know it is an improbable accident of nature and will end that way. That's no way to end a good novel. Cheers. See you boys and girls on down the road at the next coffee stop.


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## rickary

Scientist say "Nothing ever dies it only changes form".  Think about that.


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## Cookie

Yes, you might say that, in fact, what are we if not part of the planet earth itself, as are all life forms. Earth is the entity and we are like microbes? Let's think about that! ....


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## hollydolly

Debby like SB I too would be really interested in your beliefs on this subject if you wish to share..

I'd also love to read the stories of blind people who died and were able to describe what they saw in detail ...can't find any link to that anywhere , can you point me in the right direction?


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## Debby

> I'm open minded as I said, and interested in hearing what everyone believes on this subject Debby, so please share your thoughts. It's stories like this that don't help my belief in these matters.




Here's what I think happens:  When we die, the energy/spirit/soul (whatever you want to call the life that is 'us') separates from this body that we use to experience life, the world and relationships.  We return to a 'pre-physical life' dimension where we rejoin our group whom we've moved through many lifetimes with.   We may first experience floating up from our now dead body and seem to generally have less a feeling of loss and more a kind of curious interest in the things that are going on around our body. 

The next thing apparently that happens is that you will feel a sensation of being pulled away from that scene and while some folks have described moving through a tunnel of sorts, other's seem to be more focused on being drawn towards a spot of light in the distance that also feels infinitely kind and gentle and loving and that feeling gets stronger the closer we get to it.  It's been described as a consuming feeling of love that filled up every cell of that persons being and you will feel safer and more complete than you've ever felt in your life.  You will feel like you've 'returned Home'.   

Those who are 'old souls' go through the de-coupling from life relatively quickly and without a lot of assistance, but for those who are at the beginning of their 'experiences',  help and comfort can come in the form of meeting family or friends who've gone before or guides whose sole purpose is to smooth the way as we adjust to our new state of being.

The 'place' we go to is designed also to soothe and ease the transition.  What you expect is what you get in large part.  For the Christian believer, his initial impression may well be 'pearly gates', etc., and to the atheist who loves the great outdoors, he may find himself being met by family in a beautiful mountain meadow.  (Picture that great Robin Williams movie, 'What Dreams May Come').  People in other cultures experience a place that meets up with their expectations based on the kinds of experiences they have had in their lives.  And as we adjust and begin to re-know who we are and where we are, those ideas may shift and change and melt away and our awareness begins to match up to a cosmological, inexplicably lovely state of place and being that most of those folks find difficult if not impossible to really explain.


There we go through a sort of de-briefing where we get to examine our own lives, the things we did, how we grew, the effect on others.  But the whole experience has the feel of watching a movie, rather than causing a personal sense of condemnation or embarrassment.  We examine it to see where we went wrong, how we could do better, all with a view to becoming a better and more loving person over time.  And there are other 'people' there, who long ago went through their own life experiences and ultimately graduated to beings who guide those of us who are still spending time in this dimension and they act as teachers or guides.  We spend however long is necessary, discussing, sharing, talking and understanding all of that past life stuff as well as the next step.

Then there comes a time when we've talked enough and become reenergized enough to make our next decision on how we can continue this evolution of spirit in a new life.  No one stays because the whole purpose of life is to experience life  and to know ourselves in every possible way, and a single transition through life will never give you all that you need to know, so we choose to do it yet again....and again.


What really turns me on about all of this and tells me it's not hoo-doo and craziness is the fact that certain elements of quantum physics support these ideas!  And more phycists are beginning to question whether or not this material, physical world isn't some form of virtual reality or a sort of holographic reality or a form of matrix (as in the movie).  And not only does it offer a science supported possibility/probability, but for those who are of a religious nature, the concept also embraces their ideas ideas except with a few adjustments.  I like to think of the big religions as 'thumbnails' of what is really out there and what's really going on.  You know, where you look at that little tiny box with all it's shapes and splotches of colour.......and then when you click on it and the Big Picture opens up and it's waaaaaay more than that thumbnail can convey!  

Seriously, if you have an open mind and are willing to admit that there is no more evidence for any of the other theories than for this one, and then can see how there may(probably is) scientific processes that actually do support what I've come to accept, it's hard not to get excited by it.  Because what this means is you don't have to be afraid to die and the people you've loved, you'll be with again!  

Anyway, enough of that...time to get back to making dinner.....so mundane in the face of cosmological loveliness!


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## SeaBreeze

I've listened to the Coast radio show for many years now, and hear many stories of NDEs, here's some of them with links.  http://www.coasttocoastam.com/search/?query=near+death+experiences+NDE&search.x=12&search.y=16


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## rickary

Cookie said:


> Yes, you might say that, in fact, what are we if not part of the planet earth itself, as are all life forms. Earth is the entity and we are like microbes? Let's think about that! ....



And our Universe is full of microbes.


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## drifter

Food for thought. I'm trying.


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## Debby

hollydolly said:


> Debby like SB I too would be really interested in your beliefs on this subject if you wish to share..
> 
> I'd also love to read the stories of blind people who died and were able to describe what they saw in detail ...can't find any link to that anywhere , can you point me in the right direction?




Well there's this one about a woman named Pam Reynolds and what she 'saw' during her operation was terribly interesting and provides what some call the best evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu1ErDeQ0Zw

As for the blind experiencers, I read about a Dr. Kenneth Ring who looked for these kinds of people so turning to Google, I came up with the following:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=63...o can see during nde Dr. Kenneth Ring&f=false

Sorry, you'll have to click on the link because it won't let me cut and paste.


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## SeaBreeze

Thanks Debby, I've often thought about our spirit separating from our bodies, although I haven't seen any physical signs of that when someone near me has died.  Do you think there's a point shortly after death, that the spirit decides not to go yet because they're needed on earth?  That the person may either start breathing again, or just linger in a frustrated manner in the spirit world?


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## pchrise

drifter said:


> I suppose it's difficult for me to grasp the idea this conscienceness, knowing as we do, this life we hold dear, is merely an accident of nature and will and does suddenly end and that's all there is. I suppose I've always been a little slow.


  You are just fine, I have all day moments when none of this makes any sense.  PS I do not drink like the song says


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## chic

SeaBreeze said:


> Thanks Debby, I've often thought about our spirit separating from our bodies, although I haven't seen any physical signs of that when someone near me has died. Do you think there's a point shortly after death, that the spirit decides not to go yet because they're needed on earth? That the person may either start breathing again, or just linger in a frustrated manner in the spirit world?



I may be a product of too much Catholic school education, but here goes : I don't believe in a hereafter. It would be a comfort if there were a heaven filled with delights, but I think it's just a myth.

I don't think spirit is a separate entity from the body. I believe it's a part of our brains and we call it "Spirit" because we're not sophisticated enough to fully understand it. But I think when our brains die our so called spirits die right along with them. I think the whole afterlife thing offers people comfort because life isn't fair and it would be too awful to think this life is all there is and if you get a lousy life then tough luck cause there ain't no heaven.

I DO believe that a person can be hovering between life and death and the "spirit" unwilling to die, keeps us alive. This happened to me which is why I can say this.


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## Debby

chic said:


> I may be a product of too much Catholic school education, but here goes : I don't believe in a hereafter. It would be a comfort if there were a heaven filled with delights, but I think it's just a myth.
> 
> I don't think spirit is a separate entity from the body. I believe it's a part of our brains and we call it "Spirit" because we're not sophisticated enough to fully understand it. But I think when our brains die our so called spirits die right along with them. I think the whole afterlife thing offers people comfort because life isn't fair and it would be too awful to think this life is all there is and if you get a lousy life then tough luck cause there ain't no heaven.
> 
> I DO believe that a person can be hovering between life and death and the "spirit" unwilling to die, keeps us alive. This happened to me which is why I can say this.





So have you ever done any reading on any of these possibilities or are you just going by residual effects of a Catholic upbringing that has caused you to turn away from it? 

NDE's suggest that life doesn't end, it continues and death is merely a change to another form of life.  If you don't think 'spirit' is *separate*  from the body  how can it be unwilling to do anything separate from the processes that are happening to the body?  I think what you are describing is more the result of energy impulses that haven't powered down or are in 'neutral', but that that is different from the 'consciousness' that moves and motivates our emotions and actions.  Even scientists don't really understand where consciousness comes from and from my reading, many of them don't even think it originates in the brain so much as the brain is like a radio that transmits a signal from 'somewhere else' via the brain and resulting in our actions, thoughts and perceptions.
I think the following link also suggests that and also starts out by saying that the general scientific community don't know where consciousness comes from. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-russell/brain-consciousness_b_873595.html?


Again, and I always hearken back to the reading that I've done by experiencers and researchers who've actually spent years looking at all of this and the various ramifications, whatever happened to you is at it's most basic, the result of your own expectations.  Christian people who've died and been revived come back talking of meeting Jesus.  Athiests who go through that experience come back talking of meeting guides or loved ones who previously died.  I've read of some folks who believe the Christian teachings but believing themselves to be out of God's favour come back to tell of encountering a 'hell' experience although apparently those are much more rare accounts and often morph into a more typical, joyous result.  I also read a description of an Indian woman's experience which spoke of encountering an un-sympathetic beaurocratic individual who summarily told her to go back because they didn't want her yet.  And yet in all of these instances there appeared to be numerous markers that their experience was a variation of the near death experience but with differences that can only be explained by their cultural experiences.  

And not everyone who has a close call with death comes back remembering any kind of experience though I would imagine that really doesn't prove anything.  They say we all dream, but not everyone remembers their dreams.  My mom for example would swear that she doesn't dream at all.  http://psychology.about.com/od/statesofconsciousness/tp/facts-about-dreams.htm

From the following link:  http://iands.org/about-ndes/key-nde-facts.html?start=1
*Prevalence of NDEs*



Surveys taken in the US[SUP]13[/SUP], Australia[SUP]14[/SUP] and Germany[SUP]15[/SUP] suggest that 4 to 15 % of the population have had NDEs.
Every day in the U.S., 774 NDEs occur, according to the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF).[SUP]16[/SUP]
Of more than 800 near-death experiencers (NDErs) reporting to IANDS, 25% believed they were clinically dead at the time of their NDE.[SUP]17[/SUP]
A large study conducted in the Netherlands showed that 18% of people who suffered a cardiac arrest and were clinically dead had later reported an NDE.[SUP]18[/SUP]


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## Debby

pchrise, I remember that song from when I was a little girl and I still love it.  How often have I been moved to repeat that chorus?  Love it!  Thanks for sharing it!


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## Debby

SeaBreeze said:


> Thanks Debby, I've often thought about our spirit separating from our bodies, although I haven't seen any physical signs of that when someone near me has died.  Do you think there's a point shortly after death, that the spirit decides not to go yet because they're needed on earth?  That the person may either start breathing again, or just linger in a frustrated manner in the spirit world?




Regarding your last question about lingering in a frustrated manner, I can't say that I've read any real accounts on that score.  Maybe it could occur when someone dies suddenly, unexpectedly and/or violently and in those initial moments are seriously confused as to what has happened to them.  Maybe a residual energy that stays....I wouldn't really want to guess but that's a real good point to study out I think.  See what the expert consensus is on that kind of thing.  

It seems that more often the reports tell of being pulled away or drawn to the light or towards a feeling of beckoning love.  And my impression is that those instances where someone stops breathing for long enough for 'brain death' to occur and then start up again, it's after a connection with some being in that other place who sometimes asks if they want to return or the person is told that it isn't their time yet.

I'm still open to further understanding on this issue but until I have an experience with 'almost dying' or actually dying and finding out for myself, after reading all the things I've read on the subject, I'm of the mind that we do continue on, we are reunited with loved ones and a greater organizing consciousness and we don't just stop.  Look at it this way, there isn't any real proof is there that any of that is wrong!

Having known one man who is absolutely credible and not given to flights of fantasy or drunkenness or drug use, who told me about his out of body experience and how it was as real as you and I are, and knowing that the majority of these NDE's have out of body experiences as a starting point, I'm totally open to this as a probability.  We just don't understand all of it and it's a new understanding that the majority of scientists so far, are not open to even considering.  But then again, once upon a time, scientists would have argued that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat.  Science is an evolving study and I think it just hasn't gotten that far yet.

If you really think this is remotely interesting, take a look at the books of Robert A. Monroe.  He started having spontaneous out of body (OBE) experiences in his late fifties I think.  The marvellous thing is that he made a point of chronicling all of his 'journey's', his initial health concerns (brain tumour-no, going crazy-no), his numerous experiences and wrote them down in three fascinating books.  The first one where you would have to start was called Journeys Out of the Body.


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## Susie

A fascinating topic!
But no mention of memories.
Could they be the most durable of all: Our thoughts, experiences, spirit, tightly locked up in memories, some even lasting for thousands of years and remembered on stone tablets, scriptures, books, by story telling.
(The Australian Aborigines have preserved some of their ancient culture by story telling).
Maybe this is one of the few ways we continue to live on (Hereafter).


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## Shalimar

I have one small 'memory', a fragment really, that has been with me all my life. I see in my mind a young, slender, brown girl walking on the beach, wearing nothing but a white skirt. She is walking away from me, I can see her black hair shining in the sun, and the water sparkles, soft and blue to her left. Somehow, I know we are in Egypt, and she is content with her life. What does it mean? Memories of a past life? I do not know, but I have always been drawn to the art,  clothing, culture of the East.


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## Josiah

Well if wishing will make it so, I'm sure you'll all make it to you own personal nirvana.


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## Shalimar

Death is the final adventure. We will all discover the truth at that point. Until then, it is all conjecture. I hope, Josiah, that you would not mock beliefs other than your own? Surely, there is room for us all?


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## Josiah

We all kind of make fun of the notion the tooth fairy (not to little children) don't we?


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## Falcon

When you're dead, you're dead.  Anything other than that is simply wishful thinking.

But if it gives you comfort to believe otherwise then so be it.


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## Shalimar

Josiah, I am surprised, and a little saddened at your response. By all means think I am mistaken in my beliefs, but to reduce them to fairy tale status, and me to me to a child state, is contemptuous, I repeat I am surprised.


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## Cookie

Josiah said:


> Well if wishing will make it so, I'm sure you'll all make it to you own personal nirvana.



I don't think there is no any one 'authority' on this subject - its all  based on individual personal experience - anyone who wants to mock and  discount can go ahead, if that's what it takes to feel safe and secure.


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## Shalimar

Thank you, Cookie.


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## d0ug

My father used to say religion is like a crutch if you need it, it is good but don't force your crutch me. Like they say the body is the exactly the same one second before death than one second after except [Elvis has left the building]. What is [Elvis] that little spark of energy that makes all things work. I only hope that my spark of energy is part of a great flow of power some where out there.


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## drifter

I was hoping someone of you or more might offer some brilliant insight to my immediate future. Maybe you did and I don't wish to accept or did not recognize anything I could accept. Perhaps we are not all so knowing but speculate the way we hope our future will be. Maybe we continue to live on by what we do and are remembered by, our works or the art we leave. Many have lived before us. Are we, the recent race of humanity, the all knowing, blessed with some critical brain structure that we can say with certainty, this foolish creature, Nature, charged both with the creation and destruction of living things on a lonely planet in a universe that appears to go on forever? Some has said it is an awful waste of space and smarts. Personally, I will go back to one of my favorite books on the subject, written for children but with a theme adults can appreciate. Many of you may have read it. It is of course "The Fall of Freddie the Leaf," by Leo Buscaglia. My grip is weakening but I will wrap my elbow around a large limb of mother tree and hold on until some frosty day with the North wind howling around me, my hands numb from the cold, in the winter of my life, lose my grip and time for me will be no more. Finite.  Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.


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## Shalimar

Drifter, that was very poignant, I will remember.


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## Josiah

In reply, Shalimar to your comments, consider for a moment life in 12th century Europe. Superstition prevaded every aspect of life. For every event there was one or more supernatural explanations. Here we are in the 21st century and the supernatural still plays a significant role in day to day life, but not nearly as much. The reason is that starting in the renaissance skeptical thinking and the scientific method have done a remarkable job of explaining how the physical world works. Not every question has been answered and where ignorance remains, the supernatural still holds sway. Science progresses by carefully studying empirical evidence. Supernatural beliefs come about because these are the explanations people want to be true. When I see someone professing one of these warm fuzzy wish fulfillment beliefs I tend to dismiss it. The way we got from the 12th century to the 21st was because more and more people put their trust in science and I want to do what I can to encourage this trend. It is for this reason that I question beliefs that strike me as originating from what people want and not from the most recent conclusions of the scientific method. It is true that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but this is not the same as saying everyone's belief is equally valid. IMO beliefs based on established scientific evidence are more valid than beliefs originating from other sources.


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## Shalimar

Josiah, I guess Science is as good a god as any. In my humble opinion, science cannot prove anything, only disprove it. Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain your position.


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## Josiah

You're entirely welcome.


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## Warrigal

I too appreciate the scientific method and the progress that it has produced. However, I am unwilling to allow science to have the last word on everything.  The disciplines of philosophy and religion cover territory that science cannot. 

I've just finished reading a book titled "The Good Life" and it looks at what makes a life worth living. In all faiths there is some variation of what Christians refer to as the Golden Rule, and it is about how we relate to others. In my opinion, if we make the Golden Rule the foundation of our lives then death holds no terror because we have experienced "life in all its fullness" and when it is over we are content. Life in all its fullness encompasses the good and the bad of human experience.

I've always been a sceptic. I used to say that I would believe in ghosts when I encountered one face to face and had a conversation. Regarding life after death, I'm not terribly worried about whether there is anything to it. If there is something of our soul/spirit/personality etc that survives physical death then there  is an adventure yet to come and I have no fear of it, just as I didn't fear my birth. If there is nothing at all then once again, why fear? 

All that aside, being humans we love to speculate and use our imaginations to construct images of an afterlife. I lean towards an existence that is nonlinear with respect to time and non corporeal. i.e. not subject to the laws of physics and independent of time and space. This idea appeals to me because I like the idea of being able to instantly travel anywhere in this or other universes. However, I don't expect that this idea is anything more than a reverie. I got the idea from Deep Space 9, based on the wormhole aliens.


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## Papa

Great point of views everyone. I ponder about this more than I would like, can't seem to stop thinking about it every now and then. I lean towards ColeSlaw point of view.


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## Ralphy1

We all get to find out the answer but we might not know it when we do...


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## oakapple

What we should also remember is...... the dinosaurs were the masters of this planet for a lot longer than we have yet been here [by miles.]What will come after us, and will they have such an inflated view of their own species as we do?


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## Josiah

oakapple said:


> What we should also remember is...... the dinosaurs were the masters of this planet for a lot longer than we have yet been here [by miles.]What will come after us, and will they have such an inflated view of their own species as we do?



An interesting speculation. I imagine some form of the genus homo will survive the climate change and the nuclear wars and I dare say they will have a less inflated sense of who they are.


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## Uncontrolable

drifter said:


> What do yo believe? Is there a life after this one? Is there anything to Reincarnation. Or when we die, is that the end? This is something people our age think about from time to time. Of course I don't know. I do think it's a great waste of resources if this life is all there is. Care to comment?



I do not believe in death because I have had a spiritual experience involving God.  There are many people who believe that Heaven is a place where all of our family and friends are waiting for us.  Books have been written about it.  Movies have been made about it.  There is a poem by Robert Frost called:  "Trial By Existence".  It describes how we make a contract with God before coming to Earth.  We drink from the river of forgetfulness and come here to fulfill our contract.  This is the reason we have free will.  We cannot remember out past.  God, our family, or angels help us along while we are here.  I have had more help that some others because the life I chose was more difficult than some others.  Who knows for sure?  But God is with me always.


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## Uncontrolable

SeaBreeze said:


> I'm not sure, but I lean to thinking that this is it.  I've been with several close relatives when they passed and I felt that they may have been still there with me, knowing my sorrow.  I'm open minded, and have welcome them to visit me in any way possible, and that has never happened.  Maybe if I had an experience, I would be more sure, right now I don't know.  Nobody has ever come back from the dead, and some that claim to are not always believable, IMO.  I think as we get older, a lot of us think about things like this, reincarnation, past lives, it's nice to think there may be something more after this life on earth.



There is a couple of movies about people who died and came back.  There is a movie, based on a true story, about a 4 year old who died on the surgery table.  He told about his meeting with Jesus and the angels.  He met his deceased sister that his mother had not told him about.  I think is was a late misscarraige.  He met his grandfather who he had not met.  This was just a 4 year old.  In any case, he related his visit with Jesus to his father.  Due to the element of detail his son was passing along his father finally believed him.  This man was a pastor and his son's story started a fire storm of interest.  I cannot remember the movie's name, but the family's last name is Burpo.  If you put that name into Google his story should come up.


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## Uncontrolable

Debby said:


> Here's what I think happens:  When we die, the energy/spirit/soul (whatever you want to call the life that is 'us') separates from this body that we use to experience life, the world and relationships.  We return to a 'pre-physical life' dimension where we rejoin our group whom we've moved through many lifetimes with.   We may first experience floating up from our now dead body and seem to generally have less a feeling of loss and more a kind of curious interest in the things that are going on around our body.
> 
> The next thing apparently that happens is that you will feel a sensation of being pulled away from that scene and while some folks have described moving through a tunnel of sorts, other's seem to be more focused on being drawn towards a spot of light in the distance that also feels infinitely kind and gentle and loving and that feeling gets stronger the closer we get to it.  It's been described as a consuming feeling of love that filled up every cell of that persons being and you will feel safer and more complete than you've ever felt in your life.  You will feel like you've 'returned Home'.
> 
> Those who are 'old souls' go through the de-coupling from life relatively quickly and without a lot of assistance, but for those who are at the beginning of their 'experiences',  help and comfort can come in the form of meeting family or friends who've gone before or guides whose sole purpose is to smooth the way as we adjust to our new state of being.
> 
> The 'place' we go to is designed also to soothe and ease the transition.  What you expect is what you get in large part.  For the Christian believer, his initial impression may well be 'pearly gates', etc., and to the atheist who loves the great outdoors, he may find himself being met by family in a beautiful mountain meadow.  (Picture that great Robin Williams movie, 'What Dreams May Come').  People in other cultures experience a place that meets up with their expectations based on the kinds of experiences they have had in their lives.  And as we adjust and begin to re-know who we are and where we are, those ideas may shift and change and melt away and our awareness begins to match up to a cosmological, inexplicably lovely state of place and being that most of those folks find difficult if not impossible to really explain.
> 
> 
> There we go through a sort of de-briefing where we get to examine our own lives, the things we did, how we grew, the effect on others.  But the whole experience has the feel of watching a movie, rather than causing a personal sense of condemnation or embarrassment.  We examine it to see where we went wrong, how we could do better, all with a view to becoming a better and more loving person over time.  And there are other 'people' there, who long ago went through their own life experiences and ultimately graduated to beings who guide those of us who are still spending time in this dimension and they act as teachers or guides.  We spend however long is necessary, discussing, sharing, talking and understanding all of that past life stuff as well as the next step.
> 
> Then there comes a time when we've talked enough and become reenergized enough to make our next decision on how we can continue this evolution of spirit in a new life.  No one stays because the whole purpose of life is to experience life  and to know ourselves in every possible way, and a single transition through life will never give you all that you need to know, so we choose to do it yet again....and again.
> 
> 
> What really turns me on about all of this and tells me it's not hoo-doo and craziness is the fact that certain elements of quantum physics support these ideas!  And more phycists are beginning to question whether or not this material, physical world isn't some form of virtual reality or a sort of holographic reality or a form of matrix (as in the movie).  And not only does it offer a science supported possibility/probability, but for those who are of a religious nature, the concept also embraces their ideas ideas except with a few adjustments.  I like to think of the big religions as 'thumbnails' of what is really out there and what's really going on.  You know, where you look at that little tiny box with all it's shapes and splotches of colour.......and then when you click on it and the Big Picture opens up and it's waaaaaay more than that thumbnail can convey!
> 
> Seriously, if you have an open mind and are willing to admit that there is no more evidence for any of the other theories than for this one, and then can see how there may(probably is) scientific processes that actually do support what I've come to accept, it's hard not to get excited by it.  Because what this means is you don't have to be afraid to die and the people you've loved, you'll be with again!
> 
> Anyway, enough of that...time to get back to making dinner.....so mundane in the face of cosmological loveliness!



I love your description and believe it.  I stopped believing in death because God made himself/herself available to me.  Before that I could not have said I had a real belief in God.  But, after it, it became impossible for me to believe in death.  Yes, our bodies stop functioning because they wear out.  There are many people still trying to locate the place in the body where the physical and the spirit/soul connect.  Some believe there is a spiritual DNA.  Why not?  

So many people fear death and grieve for family who they believe they will never see again.   I am looking forward to death.  I have a medical background.  People get into late stages of a disease, they may have a lot of pain, usually Dr.s are good at limiting pain.  Some people want their pain.  When you die your heart stops, you stop breathing.  After a very short time, a moment, you lose consciousness.  at this point you cannot usually feel pain.  Some people who have died and returned might be able to verify this.  I do not fear the pain of death because I have been unconscious before.


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## Camper6

SeaBreeze said:


> I'm not sure, but I lean to thinking that this is it.  I've been with several close relatives when they passed and I felt that they may have been still there with me, knowing my sorrow.  I'm open minded, and have welcome them to visit me in any way possible, and that has never happened.  Maybe if I had an experience, I would be more sure, right now I don't know.  Nobody has ever come back from the dead, and some that claim to are not always believable, IMO.  I think as we get older, a lot of us think about things like this, reincarnation, past lives, it's nice to think there may be something more after this life on earth.



I'm with you.  We pass our genes on to the next generation and that's about it.

There have been mornings when I wake up and don't remember dreaming or anything else and I think to myself.  I could have died and not even known it.


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## Jackie22

I don't know the answer nor does anyone else.


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## Knight

A tie then? No one solved the mystery of life and no one solved the mystery of death. 

I'm glad I was born without a mental or physical handicap, life as I have experienced it has been good. Is there something else going to happen when my life ends? As I pointed out no one solved the mystery of death.

 When someone that has died comes back in the flesh to explain, that will end speculation won't it? 

Meanwhile those that fear what might happen when they die and are comforted by blind faith, I would never try to dissuade them. I don't fear death I just hope when it happens I'll die a peaceful death in my sleep.


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