# It's Rainin' Babies and Nobody Seems to Care



## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

This is the third baby thrown out of an apartment window to their death recently.  I haven't seen any kind of media coverage of this on the TV news, seems to me like nobody really cares.  Maybe if these babies were shot with a gun, there would be nonstop coverage on the news shows, then they would care, to promote an anti-gun agenda, not particularly for the dead baby. 

 The last one was an unwanted baby, with umbilical cord still attached...but there's still people who want to ban abortion, rather have the baby born into this world and then kill it violently, rather than terminate a pregnancy. What's going on here? Makes me sick!  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/16/new-york-mom-tosses-6-month-old-daughter-from-apartment-window/ 




> NEW YORK –  A baby girl was thrown from a sixth-floor window of an apartment building to her death on Thursday, witnesses and police said, making her the third child killed that way in the city in three months.





> Last month, a newborn girl with her umbilical cord attached was found dead outside an apartment building in the University Heights section of the borough. Authorities arrested her mother on murder and manslaughter charges, saying she hid her pregnancy and threw the child to her death from a seventh-story window shortly after giving birth.







> In August, police arrested a Queens woman in connection with the death of her 1-month-old son. According to court papers, she told authorities an evil spirit had possessed the boy and she was "stopping the pain" when she threw him from a fourth-floor window.


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## applecruncher (Oct 16, 2015)

I can recall hearing about only one of those cases on the national news.  Strange there hasn't been more coverage (such as all the stories about kids left to die in hot cars).


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

If America doesn't care about 20 little kindergarteners slaughtered... at least not enough to pass gun legislation... why should a few being tossed out windows matter?


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> If America doesn't care about 20 little kindergarteners slaughtered... at least not enough to pass gun legislation... why should a few being tossed out windows matter?



Point proven.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> This is the third baby thrown out of an apartment window to their death recently.  I haven't seen any kind of media coverage of this on the TV news, seems to me like nobody really cares.  Maybe if these babies were shot with a gun, there would be nonstop coverage on the news shows, then they would care, to promote an anti-gun agenda, not particularly for the dead baby.
> 
> The last one was an unwanted baby, with umbilical cord still attached...but there's still people who want to ban abortion, rather have the baby born into this world and then kill it violently, rather than terminate a pregnancy. What's going on here? Makes me sick!  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/16/new-york-mom-tosses-6-month-old-daughter-from-apartment-window/




How can you say nobody seems to care? What would you suggest we do about it?


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

I suggest that they at least cover it on the news reports like they would have if the baby was shot with a gun.  I suggest that people don't want to ban abortions when there are newborns being thrown from windows.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Point proven.




I'm not sure WHAT point you think was proven.   If it's the fact that America is now so desensitized to senseless killing... then yes... Makes no difference if babies are shot to pieces or thrown out of windows.. IMO


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I suggest that they at least cover it on the news reports like they would have if the baby was shot with a gun.  I suggest that people don't want to ban abortions when there are newborns being thrown from windows.




The difference SB is that we could POSSIBLY do something about the gun massacres...  But as Jim said..  what can be done if someone decided to throw a baby out of a window?


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I suggest that they at least cover it on the news reports like they would have if the baby was shot with a gun.  I suggest that people don't want to ban abortions when there are newborns being thrown from windows.



I believe the "thrown" babies get the same coverage as the babies shot, at least here.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

Or maybe if someone threw TWENTY babies out the window.....


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm not sure WHAT point you think was proven.   If it's the fact that America is now so desensitized to senseless killing... then yes... Makes no difference if babies are shot to pieces or thrown out of windows.. IMO



The point that people these days are more interested in the guns, rather than the babies being killed.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> The point that people these days are more interested in the guns, rather than the babies being killed.



I think that is the subjective opinion of a gun owner.  I own firearms too, but I agree gun deaths in America are a major concern and must be addressed by some manner.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> The point that people these days are more interested in the guns, rather than the babies being killed.



I don't believe that is true at all...  I believe most people believe murder is murder... only just MAYBE we could do something about gun violence.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 16, 2015)

Some might argue rightly so that many abortions are nothing but a mercy killing. I think this women had problems other than lack of the abortion option. 4 kids in a NYC apartment could drive many crazy. Still murder no matter her rationale.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

> Still murder no matter her rationale.


  Not if you are a O J Simpson, or Oscar Pistorius.....


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Some might argue rightly so that many abortions are nothing but a mercy killing. I think this women had problems other than lack of the abortion option. 4 kids in a NYC apartment could drive many crazy. Still murder no matter her rationale.



I don't think that the mother who killed her unwanted newborn had any other kids, I may be wrong.  I would have rather seen her terminate the pregnancy early on, instead of resorting to this.  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/n...-her-death-in-bronx-authorities-say.html?_r=0


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

That I can agree with.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

We CAN do something about it. By voting for and pushing for politicians who want to keep abortion an option as well as free or low cost contraception being available to all. Another project that needs to be adopted nationally and better promoted, especially inner-city and far rural is Safe Haven.
http://njsafehaven.org/

Basically it's a program that is anonymous, no blame, no shame. A woman can leave her baby at any number of drop off locations. The baby is then safe with social services and the woman can go on with her life. Even if someone is a staunch conservative they might still understand why this is a needed alternative.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> We CAN do something about it. By voting for and pushing for politicians who want to keep abortion an option as well as free or low cost contraception being available to all. Another project that needs to be adopted nationally and better promoted, especially inner-city and far rural is Safe Haven.
> http://njsafehaven.org/
> 
> Basically it's a program that is anonymous, no blame, no shame. A woman can leave her baby at any number of drop off locations. The baby is then safe with social services and the woman can go on with her life. Even if someone is a staunch conservative they might still understand why this is a needed alternative.



I agree Fureverywhere, that makes good sense.


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## Don M. (Oct 16, 2015)

There are countless thousands of babies born every year to parents who either don't want them, or can't afford to raise them properly.  These kids have two strikes against them the moment they draw their first breath.  Those who would ban contraception and abortion services are dooming these babies to a miserable existence.  

There are already way too many people on the planet, and these growing populations are going to experience more and more hardships in the future.


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## RadishRose (Oct 16, 2015)

Maybe it's because the babies were not killed by guns. Unless it's death by gunshot, less people seem to care and the media ignores it . Only gun-deaths are popular these days it seems.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 16, 2015)

This baby murderer ran a daycare out of her aparment? What the heck.

http://nypost.com/2015/10/16/mom-accused-of-throwing-baby-from-window-ran-day-care-center/


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

I've volunteered at some state approved day care centers and I wouldn't tell anyone to leave their children at any of them. One since closed was a horror show with the toddlers. Half the day in their high chairs and the other half running loose in the room with maybe three or four broken toys for the lot of them. But the center stayed just under the wire on the state mandated checklist.

This was a suburban center and the owner had two other schools too. In the city it gets even more dire. Welfare to work with or without day care vouchers...women have to take their chances on who they leave their kids with. If you're working a job or three for minimum wage you might be earning a bit too much for housing or food assistance.

But then rent and childcare eat up your paychecks, then utilities, bus pass, if somebody gets sick or an emergency comes up you can end up on the street. There are many women who are hard workers and great Moms. But the system fails them. That's something that needs to be addressed too. Some concrete help to lift these families out of dead end poverty.


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## Shirley (Oct 16, 2015)

I have to agree with the liberals on abortion. I think no mother should ever have to have a baby she doesn't want and no baby should have to be born to a mother who doesn't want it. There are worse things than never having been born.  With abortions being available, I wonder why those mothers didn't choose to have one.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

Just an observation - when someone takes a gun and starts shooting people at random there is always someone who argues that they are mentally ill, on drugs of a criminal gang member - anything but a responsible gun owner. 

When three women throw children out of windows no such explanations have been offered on this forum. Talk is of contraception or abortion. My concern is for the women who IMO are not likely to be heartless killers. It takes a certain kind of desperation to throw a child from a window to its death. Or an addiction to ICE.

At least one of them, according to one report I have read, seemed to have been showing some sign of mental/emotional breakdown. I haven't seen whether there were fathers involved in helping to raise their children.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/nyregion/accused-bronx-woman-was-a-daycare-provider.html?_r=0


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## Moonflight (Oct 16, 2015)

Sometimes there are no words.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

I agree Warrigal, they obviously are mentally ill for throwing their babies out the windows, just as many of the shooters are.  I've listed numerous times the pharmaceutical medications they were on for some time of mental condition, drugs with side effects of homicide or suicide.  When they say their babies are demons, that is obviously a sick person.

Of course the shooters are not responsible gun owners either, but my point was it didn't get the exaggerated media coverage that it would have if a gun was involved.  Even though there was no gun involved in these baby murders, it still opens the endless dialogue of gun control, the dead babies take second place.

Nobody can agree that there would be more extensive media coverage if a gun was involved?  Nobody can agree that those shooters were mentally ill also?


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

There are a couple of reasons that I can think of for muted media coverage. 

One is that other children are involved and to protect them, especially as they continue to grow up, the reports would try not to release any identifying information. The other, which is the reason that suicides often go unreported, is to try to avoid triggering copycat events.

From what is available it would seem that there is not a lot of commonality in all three instances. I would really like to know what the common factors might be. Are coronial inquests carried out in New York when unnatural deaths occur?


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

There are worse things than never having been born.  With abortions being available, I wonder why those mothers didn't choose to have one. 

Well for one thing Medicaid funding for abortion was cut off a long time ago.

There has been a gradual closure of clinics due in part by funding issues and a large part due to pro life terrorists. People who consider the life of a fetus paramount...and will bomb clinics and shoot people to help their cause. Does anyone else see a really sick irony there?

With the closure of clinics and distance to travel to the ones that still exist...a woman sometimes might have to travel many hours, possibly a state or two away. Add the cost of gas or bus transportation. Then factor in the actual procedure is several hundred dollars. A cost well out of reach of many women below the poverty line.

Yes, I had Women's Studies as a minor and was a clinic volunteer.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> People who consider the life of a fetus paramount...and will bomb clinics and shoot people to help their cause. Does anyone else see a really sick irony there?



I see the sick irony there Fureverywhere!  I once heard a conservative talk show host say that if his pet dog and a petri dish with an embryo in it were in a burning house and he could only save one, it would be the petri dish.  No way would that have been my choice.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

I'm still thinking about this latest event. The woman had four children, including the one thrown from the window. She was unemployed although until earlier this year she has a licence to care for other children in her apartment. People are reported as saying that she was a conscientious mother and kept the apartment clean. However, there were signs of mental problems and developing religious mania. Details of a partner are not forthcoming.

My mind is wondering about what services and assistance was available to her. I'm also wondering what services and assistance would be here for her in Australia. I do know that she could access income support, free medical and hospital care during the pregnancy and subsidised child care for the older children. This link refers to all of these entitlements : http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/subjects/having-a-baby

Perhaps the kind of caring that is needed and that could help to prevent such tragedies is something as simple as programs that support women, families and children?


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

But......god told her to do it.....


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

Jim, that post is unhelpful if we are trying to understand what went wrong. 
That kind of delusion is symptomatic of serious mental illness - schizophrenia or post partum psychosis perhaps.
Before she threw the baby out of the window she was heard shouting and talking to herself, for some hours according to one report.
She was naked, all of the children were naked. This is not normal behaviour in a woman who previously had been a good mother.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Jim, that post is unhelpful if we are trying to understand what went wrong.
> That kind of delusion is symptomatic of serious mental illness - schizophrenia or post partum psychosis perhaps.
> Before she threw the baby out of the window she was heard shouting and talking to herself, for some hours according to one report.
> She was naked, all of the children were naked. This is not normal behaviour in a woman who previously had been a good mother.



Helpful or not, it is a standard answer to the question "why" when a religious zealot takes a life or several.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> But......god told her to do it.....



Good point there Jim!



Warrigal said:


> Jim, that post is unhelpful if we are trying to understand what went wrong.
> That kind of delusion is symptomatic of serious mental illness - schizophrenia or post partum psychosis perhaps.



I wish so much concern and effort went into understanding what went wrong with the mentally ill mass shooters, but their mental state and illness is always discounted, the gun's to blame and that's that.  Brings more viewers to the main stream media outlets I guess.  The fact remains that this was just a tiny blurb in the newspaper, and won't be plastered all over the news headlines for weeks, months and years on end.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

Jim, it is a knee jerk response IMO. A reflex that does not actually involve the brain synapses.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Jim, it is a knee jerk response IMO. A reflex that does not actually involve the brain synapses.



Like you said, it's YOUR opinion.  Mine stands.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Good point there Jim!
> 
> 
> I wish so much concern and effort went into understanding what went wrong with the mentally ill mass shooters, but their mental state and illness is always discounted, the gun's to blame and that's that.  Brings more viewers to the main stream media outlets I guess.  The fact remains that this was just a tiny blurb in the newspaper, and won't be plastered all over the news headlines for weeks, months and years on end.


 Our last mass shooter, Martin Bryant, is/was clearly mentally unbalanced to say the least. This was not glossed over and he is locked up never to be released because of it. After the event it is important to ask all kinds of questions. This is why I asked about coronial inquiries. No-one answered my question.

Our last siege in Sydney CBD was followed by a  full inquiry into all the circumstances including police responses as well as the behaviour/mentality of the hostage taker. This is important even though he was killed by the police because understanding is vital if we don't want to see endless repetitions.

In the latest NY case, I make this observation. The way the remaining children were lying naked on the floor and the nakedness of the mother suggests to me that a murder suicide was in process. It seems that a flurry of 911 calls brought help quickly and the other children were saved. Ask yourselves how many would have survived if the mother had a gun at hand.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Like you said, it's YOUR opinion.  Mine stands.


Given your current avatar I choose not to dispute your opinion.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Given your current avatar I choose not to dispute your opinion.



A very wise decision on your part.  *finger easing on the trigger*


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

:lol:


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

Oy Jim, one of my bumper stickers used to be " Keep beeping, I'm reloading" Jus' sayin'

Perhaps the kind of caring that is needed and that could help to prevent such tragedies is something as simple as programs that support women, families and children? 

I wish there were in the US. There are small communities that take care of their own and that's a wonderful thing. When we lived in PA there was so much aid for people from church groups. The woman's center used to have a charity they called "The Front Porch". It was a huge wrap around porch where people could drop off clothes, furniture and everything else.

I knew several people who furnished whole apartments and clothed their family from treasures found on the porch. Sadly it was discontinued when neighbors complained. There were people of a certain element that would root around and leave a huge mess, loud voices, tossing ciggie butts in the bushes. Too bad when people need to spoil a good thing.

In the big cities there are more people in need than the government can pay for. Welfare to work was a failure. People were required to seek employment for certain benefits. Minimum wage won't pull people out of poverty. Then the kicker was if someone found work that might help their basic expenses, all their welfare benefits might get pulled.

Then the family is back to square one. What the US needs is funding for job training, day care vouchers, transportation availability.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Ask yourselves how many would have survived if the mother had a gun at hand.



I care about that poor helpless baby who's dead now, thrown out a window by her own mother...not going to speculate of how bad things might have been if that mother had a big, horrible, dangerous gun.


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## Warrigal (Oct 16, 2015)

Too late to worry about that baby now. 
It's the live ones we need to protect and sustain.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

Exactly. I'm just talking about the cycle of poverty and what it does to adults. For kids in such a family we don't even want to imagine. I mean for every op/ed piece about some child who was booted among shelters and foster care and ends up graduating from Princeton... there are countless others who end up on our streets or in our prisons because the whole system failed them.


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## Shalimar (Oct 16, 2015)

In my opinion, when a previously capable mother suddenly exhibits clearly irrational behaviour psychosis is present. It may very well manifest itself as religious mania, but I believe that to be a symptom rather than a cause of her subsequent behaviour. Frankly, she snapped.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 16, 2015)

Then there is post partum-depression and psychosis...a middle class Mom might have trouble getting treatment. A low income woman? No chance. But it is real...and there are excellent meds and therapy to counteract it...but Heaven help you trying to find it in time.


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## Shalimar (Oct 16, 2015)

I believe there should be free post natal follow ups to check for post natal depression. Free meds etc also.


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