# Biology defines woman - maybe this is the best answer.



## chic (Mar 30, 2022)

Woman = female of genus homo sapiens = human, who has reached, passed, reproductive ability. She does, or has, or can, produce ova.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Woman = Female = Human = words that _all end in either male or man._
Coincidence, or something more? What about a boy named Sue?


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

It brings to mind a quote from the 1995 film Rob Roy



> Women are the heart of honor.
> And we cherish and protect it in them.
> You must never mistreat a woman, or malign man.
> Or stand by and see another do so.



It would be a wonderful thing if all men saw women in these terms.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> It brings to mind a quote from the 1995 film Rob Roy


Women are the heart of honor. 
And we cherish and protect it in them. 
You must never mistreat a woman, *or malign man*. 
Or stand by and see another do so.


Warrigal said:


> It would be a wonderful thing if all men saw women in these terms.


It would be a wonderful thing as well if man were less maligned by all women.


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## Trish (Mar 30, 2022)

In my view, if we are talking about gender, clearly men and women's bodies and genetic make-up are very different and it is those differences which define us.  I am refraining from taking the conversation too far as I am not sure if that is the subject of this thread


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Trish said:


> In my view, if we are talking about gender, clearly men and women's bodies and genetic make-up are very different and it is those differences which define us.  I am refraining from taking the conversation too far as I am not sure if that is the subject of this thread



I’m not sure either. I saw it as attempting to use biology to malign a portion of the population.


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## Lavinia (Mar 30, 2022)

Anyone who watches archaeology programmes will know that when a skeleton is dug up, it is examined by professionals who determine the gender by the bone structure. You can chop bits off and stick bits on, but you can't change the basic skeleton.
I started a thread on this very subject.
Whatever gender you are born with, you remain for the rest of your life.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Anyone who watches archaeology programmes will know that when a skeleton is dug up, it is examined by professionals who determine the gender by the bone structure. You can chop bits off and stick bits on, but you can't change the basic skeleton.
> I started a thread on this very subject.
> Whatever gender you are born with, you remain for the rest of your life.



Bones don’t determine gender. Gender is more about social and cultural differences than biological ones.


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## Lewkat (Mar 30, 2022)

Gender is definitely defined biologically.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> Gender is definitely defined biologically.



Thank you for your definitive proclamation. I’m no expert on words but I believe that the folks at Merriam-Webster are. They don’t seem to see it quite as black and white as you though. You can see what they have to say here - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender


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## Trish (Mar 30, 2022)

I think this is a good explanation:
_
"The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes *sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features*. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.21 Feb 2019"_

My own, admittedly simplistic, view is that whatever our differences may be, we would all enjoy a much better world if we could respect each other's differences rather than let them divide us.


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## Trish (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Women are the heart of honor.
> And we cherish and protect it in them.
> You must never mistreat a woman, *or malign man*.
> Or stand by and see another do so.
> ...


I think (hope!) it's a small proportion of women who maligned men, Chris.  Generally it is extreme views which grab the headlines and that is likely why people who want to make those headlines will express them


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## Alligatorob (Mar 30, 2022)

Trish said:


> "The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes *sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features*.


Not unreasonable, but I have to wonder why this whole issue is so important to so many people.

It really only makes a difference to a small percentage of the population.  Most of us are happy with the XX or XY we were born with.  It does matter a lot to the people who are not.  I am happy to let them decide what they want to be called or considered.  No skin off my nose, and if it makes them happier then I am happy for them.

Can't say I understand why anybody would want to change sex or gender or whatever you call it, but if people do I just say go for it.

I do have a bit of discomfort or squeamishness thinking about the medical procedures, but that's my problem.  So long as it doesn't become mandatory so what?


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Trish said:


> I think (hope!) it's a small proportion of women who maligned men, Chris.  Generally it is extreme views which grab the headlines and that is likely why people who want to make those headlines will express them



It’s not the majority, in my personal experience anyway. But it doesn’t take a majority to cause unnecessary pain. For example, it doesn’t take a majority of the pebbles in the world to cause me discomfort when only one in my shoe can do that quite well. The difference is though that I can remove the hurtful pebble from my shoe. It’s not so easy a remedy when it’s people, women and some men too, who malign men as a group instead of confronting those considered problematic.


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## Gary O' (Mar 30, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> It brings to mind a quote from the 1995 film Rob Roy
> 
> 
> It would be a wonderful thing if all men saw women in these terms.


Reminds me of something I wrote early on in my tenure here

Nothing's changed;


*WIMIN


The most mysterious beings of our planet*

I found out long ago, about sixty years or so, that gaining favor with the finer gender of our specie is not necessarily in my best interest.
Whole different frequency
Wired different
Fiber optic vs 9 gauge single conductor
Fascinating, mystical, attractive, you bet
Sensitivities I’d never remotely considered
But, hanging with a group of ladies?

Can’t

Mentally; exhausting

Socially; this ogre doesn’t stand a chance

Spiritually; beyond any reach I may have thought I had

Physically; like looking into the sun, can go blind if obsessing too long

Gaining favor?
Whimsical touches
Nothing of depth
Any more than that and I find myself precariously dangling off a mental precipice

I can do one, maybe two per sitting
and that is mostly because they sense my discomfort to the point of putting forth effort to discuss what I’m interested in
I’ve learned to pick up on this and placate for a bit, then find a way to excuse myself

I don’t avoid ladies, but have learned not to seek them out
It’s what shops are for

I’ve been fortunate

My lady has put up with me for half a century

When I become too much and I (for some unknown reason) anger her,
I found placing my calloused hand on the small of her back will still cause her to flinch
….and she begrudgingly forgives me

We have had this tryst, this romance that has yet to fade

She’s plenty for me

Forever


So, here I remain
Baffled, yet attracted at the mysteries, complexities
A sentry
A defender
A protector
A willing grunt

Keeping the fire

best I can





As far as the terms 'sex' or 'gender'
Those terms have been overworked of late


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Anyone who watches archaeology programmes will know that when a skeleton is dug up, it is examined by professionals who determine the gender by the bone structure. You can chop bits off and stick bits on, but you can't change the basic skeleton.
> I started a thread on this very subject.
> Whatever gender you are born with, you remain for the rest of your life.


I believe we have talked this thing _to death_ (which is likely why the previous thread was locked), but I cannot stop myself pointing out, _again_, that what is being referred to in this post is sex, not gender. 
Sex cannot be changed, gender can.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

COVID stuff has been slow of late. The war in Ukraine seems like everyone pretty much agrees that it’s not good. We can’t talk politics on here. Sex and gender seems like one of the last few things we call all disagree about. It’d be a shame if most people spoke civilly to each other. Or so it might seem to an outside observer of these “discussions”.


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Reminds me of something I wrote early on in my tenure here
> 
> Nothing's changed;
> 
> ...


A lot of this went over or around my head, but I agree with you about the sex vs. gender thing.  It's just that it's not that hard.  However, I've given my opinion on this (ad nauseam) and I need to bow out of these threads, I think.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Maybe there’s some hidden meaning the lyrics of this song?


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> COVID stuff has been slow of late. The war in Ukraine seems like everyone pretty much agrees that it’s not good. We can’t talk politics on here. Sex and gender seems like one of the last few things we call all disagree about. It’d be a shame if most people spoke civilly to each other. Or so it might seem to an outside observer of these “discussions”.


I don't think we're being all that uncivil to each other; simply disagreeing, repeatedly.  

I was wondering about the politics thing because I swear I've seen threads that are most certainly political discussions.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Women are the heart of honor.
> And we cherish and protect it in them.
> You must never mistreat a woman, *or malign man*.
> Or stand by and see another do so.
> ...



ALL women?


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> I don't think we're being all that uncivil to each other; simply disagreeing, repeatedly.
> 
> I was wondering about the politics thing because I swear I've seen threads that are most certainly political discussions.


This is one thread of how many. And I too am not blind to the political matters being discussed. It just seems that most people aren’t happy unless most people are unhappy. Maybe it’s a gender or age thing, I don’t know. But I’m sure that there are dozens of people here who know for sure what I do not and aren’t afraid to say so in no uncertain terms.

Why do you think that at almost any given time visitors outnumber the members exponentially so? They look at what’s here and decide, maybe, “Wow, these people don’t get along very well at all.”

There seems to be a core group of ~50 or so members who post most of what’s here. But of those ~50 or so voices, one half generally seems to vehemently disagree with the other. Just my personal perception perhaps. But that you disagree just furthers my personal perception.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Bones don’t determine gender. Gender is more about social and cultural differences than biological ones.


If by gender you are referring to masculinity and femininity then I agree with you.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> ALL women?


Sure, why not? Or are you in favor of the current rate of or even more malignment of men by women?


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## Alligatorob (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> There seems to be a core group of ~50 or so members who post most of what’s here. But of those ~50 or so voices, one half generally seems to vehemently disagree with the other.


I think that is one of the things that makes this place interesting.  So long as the discussions are civil and somewhat reasoned I like hearing both sides.  And I do see a lot of the civil and reasoned debate here.  Not always, but mostly.


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> This is one thread of how many. And I too am not blind to the political matters being discussed. It just seems that most people aren’t happy unless most people are unhappy. Maybe it’s a gender or age thing, I don’t know. But I’m sure that there are dozens of people here who know for sure what I do not and aren’t afraid to say so in no uncertain terms.
> 
> Why do you think that at almost any given time visitors outnumber the members exponentially so? They look at what’s here and decide, maybe, “Wow, these people don’t get along very well at all.”
> 
> There seems to be a core group of ~50 or so members who post most of what’s here. But of those ~50 or so voices, one half generally seems to vehemently disagree with the other. Just my personal perception perhaps. But that you disagree just furthers my personal perception.


I have found this forum to be quite the opposite actually.  It is generally a nice group of people who get along pretty well and are kind to each other, for the most part.  There are lots of discussions here wherein no one is arguing, but simply sharing.

In my humble opinion, we've simply hit on a couple "hot button" issues lately that tend to divide people along "party lines."  

And even at that, it really hasn't gotten too out of hand.  People can disagree on an issue and still like each other, agree on other things.  

I enjoy this forum and the people here.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I think that is one of the things that makes this place interesting.  So long as the discussions are civil and somewhat reasoned I like hearing both sides.  And I do see a lot of the civil and reasoned debate here.  Not always, but mostly.


It doesn’t take many turds in a punch bowl to make it undrinkable. Only one, or even just a part of one. I seem some well thought out and reasonable debate here but I also see a lot that’s unpalatable to me. But we’re way off topic with what you or I see in general. This thread was/is for something else and we all have varying opinions. I know I’ll not change anyones mind about what they “know” but maybe I can get some to examine their personal base of knowledge.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> I have found this forum to be quite the opposite actually.  It is generally a nice group of people who get along pretty well and are kind to each other, for the most part.  There are lots of discussions here wherein no one is arguing, but simply sharing.
> 
> In my humble opinion, we've simply hit on a couple "hot button" issues lately that tend to divide people along "party lines."
> 
> ...



I like and enjoy some of it and some of the people here. But as with most things, there seems to be room for improvement. Your view may vary but I’m not here to discuss that at length.


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I like and enjoy some of it and some of the people here. But as with most things, there seems to be room for improvement. Your view may vary but I’m not here to discuss that at length.


There's no need to.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> There's no need to.


My point exactly.


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## Lewkat (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Thank you for your definitive proclamation. I’m no expert on words but I believe that the folks at Merriam-Webster are. They don’t seem to see it quite as black and white as you though. You can see what they have to say here - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender


I really could not care less what Merriam-Webster has decided to define gender.  I am in the medical field and gender is a biological definition of one's sex.  You are male or female unless an aberration occurs causing one to be what is known as a hermaphrodite.  Society may wish to condone the idea, one can be whatever gender one wishes, but it cannot change the physiology of fact.


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## Lavinia (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> A lot of this went over or around my head, but I agree with you about the sex vs. gender thing.  It's just that it's not that hard.  However, I've given my opinion on this (ad nauseam) and I need to bow out of these threads, I think.


You're quite right. Those of us who know the truth can retire smugly and let the deluded ones continue with their fantasies. The problem is, unfortunately, that those deluded ones are determined to impose their delusions on the rest of us....and much worse, our children. This is why it has become a political issue.
Minorities dislike being minorities.


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## Medusa (Mar 30, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> You're quite right. Those of us who know the truth can retire smugly and let the deluded ones continue with their fantasies. The problem is, unfortunately, that those deluded ones are determined to impose their delusions on the rest of us....and much worse, our children. This is why it has become a political issue.
> Minorities dislike being minorities.


You are quoting my response to @Gary O's post, not yours, or for that matter, the larger discussion.
However, if you are referring only to my statement that I need to bow out of this discussion, we're in agreement.  Enough already.  Let's agree to disagree and move on.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> I really could not care less what Merriam-Webster has decided to define gender.  I am in the medical field and gender is a biological definition of one's sex.  You are male or female unless an aberration occurs causing one to be what is known as a hermaphrodite.  Society may wish to condone the idea, one can be whatever gender one wishes, but it cannot change the physiology of fact.



Thank you for your reply. I kind of had you pegged as not caring what a respected authority had to say if it conflicted with your view.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Sure, why not? Or are you in favor of the current rate of or even more malignment of men by women?


I'm not sure what the point of difference is here but what I am actually in favour of is less women being afraid of their male partners. It is said that men are afraid of being laughed at (or maligned?) by women but women are afraid that they may be murdered by a man. The two fears are not equivalent. 

I am one of the lucky women who has nothing to fear from my husband and I grew up in a family where the menfolk were not violent to the women, with one exception - I had one cousin who was a mongrel b*st*rd to his poor wife. In my experience such men are not the norm. Similarly, not all women (your words) are antagonistic to all men. If you think we are...


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 30, 2022)

None of it really matters to me.

If ****** reassignment is helpful to a person and the technology exists to do it safely, why not?

It may improve their lives and it certainly does no harm to me.

Right or wrong, I think of it as attempting to correct a birth defect and nothing more.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I'm not sure what the point of difference is here but what I am actually in favour of is less women being afraid of their male partners. It is said that men are afraid of being laughed at (or maligned?) by women but women are afraid that they may be murdered by a man. The two fears are not equivalent.
> 
> I am one of the lucky women who has nothing to fear from my husband and I grew up in a family where the menfolk were not violent to the women, with one exception - I had one cousin who was a mongrel b*st*rd to his poor wife. In my experience such men are not the norm. Similarly, not all women (your words) are antagonistic to all men. If you think we are...



I said nothing about equivalency and my words did not include the word “antagonistic.” Those are your words and not mine. But being a man, I seem to notice where life is unfair to men in ways that many women don’t consider, or so it seems to me. And sometimes women do kill or injure men, be it their husband, partner or acquaintance. Notice my wording, I said sometimes. Thanks for sharing your opinions but mine are not the same.


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

There are two aspects to this issue.  Emotional/psychological identification which is fine with me whatever a person chooses.  There's also biology which must be considered medically.

Biological men who emotionally and psychologically identify as women still need PSA levels checked yearly unless they've had their prostate removed. Biological women who identify as men and have had their uterus removed can still develop endometrial cancer if they had endometriosis and bits of that tissue remain post hysteroctomy.  There are numerous other diseases that are biologically sex related.  For a healthcare practitioner to provide proper care to a trans man or woman, they must know birth biological sex.  Regardless of identity choice, sex at birth is a biological fact that a person must still accept if they care about their physical health.


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## oldpeculier (Mar 30, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> There are two aspects to this issue.  Emotional/psychological identification which is fine with me whatever a person chooses.  There's also biology which must be considered medically.
> 
> *Biological men who emotionally and psychologically identify as women still need PSA levels checked yearly unless they've had their prostate removed.* Biological women who identify as men and have had their uterus removed can still develop endometrial cancer if they had endometriosis and bits of that tissue remain post hysteroctomy.  There are numerous other diseases that are biologically sex related.  For a healthcare practitioner to provide proper care to a trans man or woman, they must know birth biological sex.  Regardless of identity choice, sex at birth is a biological fact that a person must still accept if they care about their physical health.


Disregarding the "identify as women" part, men that have had a radical prostatectomy due to cancer need to have their PSA checked annually. The test reveals the presence of the prostate antigen in the blood. Ideally, the test will show what is considered undetectable levels of the antigen post surgery. Annual tests are compared and used to monitor the recurrence, and growth rate of disease, if any.

I just had to respond to that, Annie, not disagreeing with the premise of your general comment.

I am ignorant if bio. men have their prostate removed in the sex change process. I cannot image they do. Do they?


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## feywon (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Woman = Female = Human = words that _all end in either male or man._
> Coincidence, or something more? What about a boy named Sue?


The craziest part of that linguistic nonsense  is that every human embryo begins as female and a complex series of things happen including chemical, hormonal influxes to produce males.

What is more XX and XY are not the only sexually related chromosonal options, tho other variants tend to be labeled disorders because they can effect development and behaviors in ways that society considers abnormal.

The same types of  hormones (estrogens and aNdrogens) are basically present in both sexes but in varying amounts.and influencing different organs. Tho in trying to refresh  my memory on this some sources say testosterone exclusively male while FSH and progesterone exclusively female,  but that may be a function of how the basic androgen or estrogen present at birth interacts with the different organs present.  And or a function of when and how what hormonal tests are run, with social assumptions about sexuality based on ****** organs influencing what tests are run unless the person shows 'symptoms' of being XXY or XYY.

My point is that it is not as cut and dry, either/or as we tend to think. But then i'm a humanist, despite the flaws in us i dislike, and am not  big fan of how most male vs female disputes descend into some form seeing one as less or more when we all are capable of both great kindness and monstrous behaviors depending on various factors.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 30, 2022)

feywon said:


> XXY or XYY


Although rare these people do exist, as do other variants: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...ugh 47,XXY is the,less frequently than 47,XXY.


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## chic (Mar 30, 2022)

Trish said:


> In my view, if we are talking about gender, clearly men and women's bodies and genetic make-up are very different and it is those differences which define us.  I am refraining from taking the conversation too far as I am not sure if that is the subject of this thread


Nope. This is not about gender. This is about people who cannot define a woman or describe a woman because they are not "biologists", which I think is a copout so I played the "biologist" by giving a biological definition of a woman.


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## chic (Mar 30, 2022)

feywon said:


> The craziest part of that linguistic nonsense  is that every human embryo begins as female and a complex series of things happen including chemical, hormonal influxes to produce males.
> 
> What is more XX and XY are not the only sexually related chromosonal options, tho other variants tend to be labeled disorders because they can effect development and behaviors in ways out what society considers abnormal.
> 
> ...


If a human produces ova it is a woman. If it produces sperm it is a man. That's all. It's just simple biology here. That's all I wanted to say.


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## Gary O' (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> A lot of this went over or around my head, but I agree with you about the sex vs. gender thing. It's just that it's not that hard. However, I've given my opinion on this (ad nauseam) and I need to bow out of these threads, I think.


Yeah, I get a bit OT ever so often.

And, yes, bowing out is not a bad move from time to time.




Chris P Bacon said:


> There seems to be a core group of ~50 or so members who post most of what’s here. But of those ~50 or so voices, one half generally seems to vehemently disagree with the other. Just my personal perception perhaps. But that you disagree just furthers my personal perception.


@Chris P Bacon
I'm sure I don't agree with you on several subjects, but I do love reading your points of discussion. They have some intellect behind them.


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## Packerjohn (Mar 30, 2022)

Ah!  The never ending "Battle of the Sexes."  This is not for me except to say that women make life very nice and I wouldn't want to live in a world without them.


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## feywon (Mar 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Although rare these people do exist, as do other variants: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909519/#:~:text=Although 47,XXY is the,less frequently than 47,XXY.


Yes part of my point--- however infrequently variants occur they exist.  It is not always either/or.  Hermaphrodites still occur.



chic said:


> If a human produces ova it is a woman. If it produces sperm it is a man. That's all. It's just simple biology here. That's all I wanted to say.


Few things about biology are simple, physcal life manifests due to complex processes and interactions.  While somewhat entangled, ****** definition and gender identity are not the same thing.

Your first statement In this comment is what got JK Rowling in trouble. Her statement of 'biological fact'  implied postmenopausal humans are no longer women. Also Hormonal deficiencies can result in a human with all the obvious and internal organs but not being able to produce ova,  or not consistently. And after menopause  none of us do. (Which one could argue is nature's way of saying female humans have value beyond being incubators).

In your OP you expressed it better by saying 'does, has or can'. But that still excludes female looking humans who hormones and organs are impaired someway and can't produce ova. It happens.

Personally i am much more concerned with how people behave towards each other than their physicality, or even how they 'identify'.


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## spectratg (Mar 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I think that is one of the things that makes this place interesting.  So long as the discussions are civil and somewhat reasoned I like hearing both sides.  And I do see a lot of the civil and reasoned debate here.  Not always, but mostly.


Yes every person should have the freedom for themselves to define what gender they are.  If they want to go further with surgery, then that is their right to do so (after careful consideration I would hope).  But the societal problem that none of you have addressed concerns allowing transgender women to compete in sports with biological women.  Recently, a transgender woman has been dominating college swimming.

A human being born male will on average eventually have more muscle mass, lung capacity, etc. than the average human born female, and no amount of testosterone suppression drugs can change that.  So I don't believe that transgender women should be allowed to compete against biological women since they have an inherent physical advantage.


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

spectratg said:


> But the societal problem that none of you have addressed concerns allowing transgender women to compete in sports with biological women.  Recently, a transgender woman has been dominating college swimming.
> 
> A human being born male will on average eventually have more muscle mass, lung capacity, etc. than the average human born female, and no amount of testosterone suppression drugs can change that.  So I don't believe that transgender women should be allowed to compete against biological women since they have an inherent physical advantage.



Most biological female athletes I've read about are sympathetic to a person's right to identity choice, but agree that if a person went through puberty as a male, she has an unfair advantage over biological females. No matter how many years of hormone therapy, Lia Thompson has a physical unfair advantage over all but a very few birth females.

Title IX resulted from years of hard fought battles to ensure adequate funding for women's sports; to allow birth males who developed traditional male bodies in puberty to compete with birth females is discriminatory to those born female.  The current controversy in swimming doesn't even take into consideration the physical dangers of trans women competing in team sports such as women's basketball.


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## Lewkat (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Thank you for your reply. I kind of had you pegged as not caring what a respected authority had to say if it conflicted with your view.


Please spare me.  The most respected authority in defining gender is a medical or biological dictionary.


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## fuzzybuddy (Mar 30, 2022)

Everybody believes that if you look between someone's legs, you can determine if the person is male or female. *Generally,* that's true, but not always. Biology is always a range of outcomes.  And being male or female is also a host of hormones, developmental issues, and emotional issues. Again, with all these factors, there is an enormous range of outcomes.
I think this post is in regard to "men" in women's sports. When you have a segregated sport by gender, it's up to the officials in that sport to determine what they mean by "male"/"female". Even if you use the "looking between the legs" test, there are some with both, none, or modified.
Yes, life gets more complicated every day.


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## Murrmurr (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Woman = Female = Human = words that _all end in either male or man._
> Coincidence, or something more? What about a boy named Sue?


Female comes from the Medieval Latin word femella.

Woman is from the Old English "wer" + "man" which is the word for human being.

Believe it or not, I learned that in Art History class.


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Everybody believes that if you look between someone's legs, you can determine if the person is male or female., that's true, but not always. Biology is always a range of outcomes.  And being male or female is also a host of hormones, developmental issues, and emotional issues. Again, with all these factors, there is an enormous range of outcomes.
> I think this post is in regard to "men" in women's sports. When you have a segregated sport by gender, it's up to the officials in that sport to determine what they mean by "male"/"female". Even if you use the "looking between the legs" test, there are some with both, none, or modified.
> Yes, life gets more complicated every day.



We're technologically more advanced than that and can easily use genetics.  For those few who aren't predominately XX or XY, then sports officials can weigh in.


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## Murrmurr (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Bones don’t determine gender. Gender is more about social and cultural differences than biological ones.


Are you distinguishing "sex" from "gender"? Sex being biological and anatomical?


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Are you distinguishing "sex" from "gender"? Sex being biological and anatomical?


No


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Are you distinguishing "sex" from "gender"? Sex being biological and anatomical?





Chris P Bacon said:


> No



@Chris P Bacon  --   Keeping in mind the fast pace of medical care and the fact that birth sex impacts medical health throughout the lifespan, what's your terminology solution to ensure that birth sex is easily identified by practitioners so that physical illness associated with birth sex aren't missed?


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> Please spare me.  The most respected authority in defining gender is a medical or biological dictionary.


Consider it done. Which medical or biological dictionary is the most authoritative though? I’d imagine that there must be more than one. I’d hate to get my facts wrong again. You seem to feel you’re an expert on the subject so do share your expert knowledge. Miriam-Webster has one but you say their definitions are no good. From the few other medical non Merriam-Webster-Webster medical dictionaries I’m able to find, their definitions seem to correlate what I found n my first search. I’m not saying that you may have knowledge that I do not but I will say that you may have opinions and biases that I do not. Please do share your sources of reference?


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## Murrmurr (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Consider it done. Which medical or biological dictionary is the most authoritative though? I’d imagine that there must be more than one. I’d hate to get my facts wrong again. You seem to feel you’re an expert on the subject so do share your expert knowledge. Miriam-Webster has one but you say their definitions are no good. From the few other medical non Merriam-Webster-Webster medical dictionaries I’m able to find, their definitions seem to correlate what I found n my first search. I’m not saying that you may have knowledge that I do not but I will say that you may have opinions and biases that I do not. Please do share your sources of reference?


Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> @Chris P Bacon  --   Keeping in mind the fast pace of medical care and the fact that birth sex impacts medical health throughout the lifespan, what's your terminology solution to ensure that birth sex is easily identified by practitioners so that physical illness associated with birth sex aren't missed?



I defer to the experts. I believe in shades of gray. It seems that nothing is easily determined these days. I just don’t see what the fuss is all about. But I do see it as being more against men who feel that their correct and true gender is female. Newborns don’t cause as much discord as adults. When speaking of men and women, I’m not thinking about babies.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.



Ah but I’m looking for the definition of gender. I’ve been informed that gender is anatomical. But I’ll look there, thanks.


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.



Merck Manual is another highly regarded source.  Here's a screen shot of the first results for "male" from the consumer version of Merck.  I don't have an online professional subscription (have a hard copy of the book).


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## Murrmurr (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Ah but I’m looking for the definition of gender. I’ve been informed that gender is anatomical. But I’ll look there, thanks.


"Sex" is anatomical and biological. "Gender" is physiological but also recognized as psychological and sociological. You won't find the latter in Grey's Anatomy.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> "Sex" is anatomical. "Gender" is physiological but also recognized as psychological and sociological. You won't find the latter in Grey's Anatomy.



Well you’ll get no argument about any of that from me. But a self professed expert here told me that that wasn’t true. Maybe they’ll tell you too but I’m too tired to defend my position any more right now. I trust the definition I found in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. That I can only find that or nearly similar definitions in other dictionaries settles it for me. If a person can get the letter on their birth certificate changed from M to F, or vice versa, that should mean something, somehow. What would I know anyway? I identify as a pig but a genderless asexual one.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.


Grey’s Anatomy is a television show, I knew but you may not. _Gray’s_ Anatomy, which I also knew, is a respected medical reference work. One little letter can sure cause a lot of confusion, can’t it though? Better double check that though because, I reiterate, I’m not an expert on these things.


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I defer to the experts. I believe in shades of gray. It seems that nothing is easily determined these days. I just don’t see what the fuss is all about.  ...When speaking of men and women, I’m not thinking about babies.



Not many people here are going to fuss about gender identity and are open to shades of gray.  A few will, but on the whole this is an open-minded group.  I mention "birth female" and "birth male" in posts referring to physical sex from a medical standpoint since for appx 98% of humans, biologic sex is easily determined at birth.

I asked you how medical practitioners should identify sex and you said you defer to experts. Two highly regarded expert sources are listed above:  Grey's Anatomy and Merck Manual.

Here's what Merck has to say about the terminology:

Excerpt:

Concepts of Sex and Gender

Various terms are used to talk about sex and gender. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

*Sex* refers to a person's biologic status: male, female, or intersex.
******* identity* refers to the sex to which a person is sexually attracted (if any).
*Gender* refers to a person's public, lived role as boy or girl, man or woman.
*Gender identity* is the subjective sense of knowing to which gender one belongs; that is, whether people regard themselves as male, female, transgender, or another identifying term (for example, genderqueer, nonbinary, agender).
*Gender role* is the objective, public expression of gender identity and includes everything that people say and do to indicate to themselves and to others the degree to which they are the gender with which they identify.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Not many people here are going to fuss about gender identity and are open to shades of gray.  A few will, but on the whole this is an open-minded group.  I mention birth in posts about biological sex from a medical standpoint since for appx 98% of humans, biologic sex is easily determined at birth.
> 
> I asked you how medical practitioners should identify sex and you defer to experts. Two good expert sources are listed above:  Grey's Anatomy and Merck Manual.
> 
> ...


Actually, Grey’s Anatomy is a television show but I’m sure you knew that. And your quoted definition of gender doesn’t seem determinable from just bones. Male and female at birth, yes, that possibly can be. But the role lived would seem indeterminable from only bones. I guess they don’t spell sex and gender the same way is because they aren’t the same things.


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## Jan14 (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Woman = Female = Human = words that _all end in either male or man._
> Coincidence, or something more? What about a boy named Sue?


Thanks for clearing that matter up


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## AnnieA (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Actually, Grey’s Anatomy is a television show but I’m sure you knew that. And your quoted definition of gender doesn’t seem determinable from just bones. Male and female at birth, yes, that possibly can be. But the role lived would seem indeterminable from only bones. I guess they don’t spell sex and gender the same way is because they aren’t the same things.



The television show name is a play on the title of the textbook.   You're smart enough to figure that out just from this thread ...more intelligent than most people on this board imo.  And I'm not the poster that spoke of bones determining gender or sex  ...think that was an archaeological reference?

My quoted definitions are from an expert medical source (Merck Manual) which is what you stated you defer to. @Murrmurr provided similar info from Grey's.  If you can find an allopathic or osteopathic medical school that doesn't list these as required textbooks, I'm interested in learning what is used in their place.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 30, 2022)

Thank you for your kind words and also for your reccomendations for further research. But I’ve been on my feet for far too long today and these heels are killing my feet right now. Maybe after I’ve relaxed in a bubble bath and slipped into something more comfortable, I’ll regain interest then. But for now, I’m onto different, more easily understood topics. Thanks again!


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## Lewkat (Mar 30, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Grey's Anatomy has entire sections devoted to the two subjects; male and female.


Taber's Medical Dictionary is another Murmmurr.  We used that one widely in school.  There are also Stedman's and Dormand's.  I am through with responding to Mr. Bacon above as he's looking for a fight and accusing me of something not a fact, so I'll end here.


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## feywon (Mar 30, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Everybody believes that if you look between someone's legs, you can determine if the person is male or female. *Generally,* that's true, but not always. Biology is always a range of outcomes.  And being male or female is also a host of hormones, developmental issues, and emotional issues. Again, with all these factors, there is an enormous range of outcomes.
> I think this post is in regard to "men" in women's sports. When you have a segregated sport by gender, it's up to the officials in that sport to determine what they mean by "male"/"female". Even if you use the "looking between the legs" test, there are some with both, none, or modified.
> Yes, life gets more complicated every day.


I saw nothing in @chic's OP to indicate that her focus was on transgender women (i.e. born male physically) in women's sports but i could be wrong.

  I do  agree that when it comes to competitions this is something for the sports officials need to think about and form guidelines about.  But then  sports have never been high on my list of priorities and interests.


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## CarolfromTX (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Bones don’t determine gender. Gender is more about social and cultural differences than biological ones.


Horse s**t.  It’s about chromosomes and the bone structure and body features that result. It’s ALL about biology.  And nothing else.  You’re trying to change the language. Maybe you need a new word for whatever you’re talking about, but in my world there are two genders and it’s easy to figure out which is which.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 30, 2022)

In my opinion, the difference is how men differ from women by how they do things. For example, women think with their brains while men use a different part of their body that decides how they think and I am sure you all know what part that is.


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## Murrmurr (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Grey’s Anatomy is a television show, I knew but you may not. _Gray’s_ Anatomy, which I also knew, is a respected medical reference work. One little letter can sure cause a lot of confusion, can’t it though? Better double check that though because, I reiterate, I’m not an expert on these things.


Yes, the reference book is Gray's, written by Henry Gray. The color grey is spelled grey, and Earl Grey tea is spelled grey and I'm pretty familiar with those two greys.


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## win231 (Mar 30, 2022)

Trish said:


> In my view, if we are talking about gender, clearly men and women's bodies and genetic make-up are very different and it is those differences which define us.  I am refraining from taking the conversation too far as I am not sure if that is the subject of this thread


Please elaborate on the physical differences in great detail.


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## win231 (Mar 30, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> In my opinion, the difference is how men differ from women by how they do things. For example, women think with their brains while men use a different part of their body that decides how they think and I am sure you all know what part that is.


Funny you should mention that.
Many women (including my ex wife) also think with a similar part of their body in a similar location.  I'm sure you know what part that is.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Thanks for sharing your opinions but mine are not the same.


I know, which is why an exchange of opinions can be useful for better understanding. Clearly there is a rather wide chasm between our two views of male/female relationships.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Although rare these people do exist, as do other variants: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3909519/#:~:text=Although 47,XXY is the,less frequently than 47,XXY.


One of my grand daughters is XXY. It does not result in gender confusion but does have other limitations that she has to cope with.


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## win231 (Mar 30, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> In my opinion, the difference is how men differ from women by how they do things. For example, women think with their brains while men use a different part of their body that decides how they think and I am sure you all know what part that is.


Women who think that are often the women who lack the self esteem & intelligence to recognize a decent man from a bum.  Admitting you choose poorly is more difficult than blaming men for your bad choices.


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## dseag2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Anyone who watches archaeology programmes will know that when a skeleton is dug up, it is examined by professionals who determine the gender by the bone structure. You can chop bits off and stick bits on, but you can't change the basic skeleton.
> I started a thread on this very subject.
> Whatever gender you are born with, you remain for the rest of your life.


Yes, you did.  And as I remember it was closed.     Always appreciate your narrow-minded perspective.


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## dseag2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Medusa said:


> I don't think we're being all that uncivil to each other; simply disagreeing, repeatedly.
> 
> I was wondering about the politics thing because I swear I've seen threads that are most certainly political discussions.


And then there's Lavinia.  (Sing "And Then There's Maude" while you read this.)


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## Lavinia (Mar 31, 2022)

I see that at long last, the world of sport is starting to show a bit of common sense. They seem to have accepted the fact that there are physical differences between the bodies of men and women, and removing the genitals does not turn a male into a female.
(I'm referring here to the trans cyclist who has now  been barred from participating in a womens cycling event).


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## chic (Mar 31, 2022)

feywon said:


> I saw nothing in @chic's OP to indicate that her focus was on transgender women (i.e. born male physically) in women's sports but i could be wrong.
> 
> I do  agree that when it comes to competitions this is something for the sports officials need to think about and form guidelines about.  But then  sports have never been high on my list of priorities and interests.


You're absolutely correct. I stated or tried to state a biological fact. The rest is sophistry = the inability / refusal to admit what is perfectly apparent due to manipulation of language intended to confuse and divide us. So I will not participate in this thread anymore. Please don't think I am ignoring you. I want nothing to do with further division. 

Thank you.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 31, 2022)

chic said:


> So I will not participate in this thread anymore.


Sorry to hear that, you are someone who's opinions and thoughts I appreciate.  Don't always agree with you, but I think that makes your posts more interesting.  To me anyway.


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## squatting dog (Mar 31, 2022)




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## oldaunt (Mar 31, 2022)

I used to be referred to as a tomboy, and often. Never really cared much for girlie stuff, but at the end of the day I'm still a woman. I'm happy with having the best of both sides. Who says you have to choose?


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## oldaunt (Mar 31, 2022)

chic said:


> If a human produces ova it is a woman. If it produces sperm it is a man. That's all. It's just simple biology here. That's all I wanted to say.


I stopped producing ova 20 years ago. Am I still a woman? And there ARE men who can't produce sperm.......


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## oldaunt (Mar 31, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Consider it done. Which medical or biological dictionary is the most authoritative though? I’d imagine that there must be more than one. I’d hate to get my facts wrong again. You seem to feel you’re an expert on the subject so do share your expert knowledge. Miriam-Webster has one but you say their definitions are no good. From the few other medical non Merriam-Webster-Webster medical dictionaries I’m able to find, their definitions seem to correlate what I found n my first search. I’m not saying that you may have knowledge that I do not but I will say that you may have opinions and biases that I do not. Please do share your sources of reference?


Over the years, MW dictionary has often leaned too hard toward popular opinion rather than fact. Compare today's copy to one from 1950 for instance, and see how certain words have changed definition.


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## squatting dog (Mar 31, 2022)

oldaunt said:


> I used to be referred to as a tomboy, and often. Never really cared much for girlie stuff, but at the end of the day I'm still a woman. I'm happy with having the best of both sides. Who says you have to choose?


You got it.  My wife has never gone much for girlie stuff, but, she is all woman for sure.


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## Warrigal (Mar 31, 2022)

oldaunt said:


> I used to be referred to as a tomboy, and often. Never really cared much for girlie stuff, but at the end of the day I'm still a woman. I'm happy with having the best of both sides. Who says you have to choose?


Me too. I could have written this about myself.


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## feywon (Mar 31, 2022)

oldaunt said:


> I used to be referred to as a tomboy, and often. Never really cared much for girlie stuff, but at the end of the day I'm still a woman. I'm happy with having the best of both sides. Who says you have to choose?


Count me in that club.  Dad only had girls so we learned how to use tools, follow written and verbal instructions.  This week i put in some new piping for new water heater, including for the relief valve outflow which had to have a couple of 'joints' cause the bathroom in this old house is so small and only one option where to put the heater. 

But i love to dance and it was a major social activity for me when young. Now i dance around the house. And i've had 3 kids. But like most 'females' here am now post menopausal.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 31, 2022)

oldaunt said:


> tomboy


Always liked tomboys!  Mostly fun and easy to relate to.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 1, 2022)

Our science has outpaced our vocabulary, and our common concepts. Gender, sex, and ****** identity used to mean about the same thing. As we continue explore the subtle differences in people, we become more aware of those differences. And they don't fit neatly into the old boxes we have been using.


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## AnnieA (Apr 1, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Yes, the reference book is Gray's, written by Henry Gray. The color grey is spelled grey, and Earl Grey tea is spelled grey and I'm pretty familiar with those two greys.



I totally missed the Gray/Grey spelling issues.   Couldn't understand why the tv show kept coming up in the discussion. But my hair is gray, not grey... 

Here's the relevant Gray's Anatomy.

.


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## Warrigal (Apr 1, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> I totally missed the Gray/Grey spelling issues.   Couldn't understand why the tv show kept coming up in the discussion. But my hair is gray, not grey...
> 
> Here's the relevant Gray's Anatomy.
> 
> .


My hair is pretty much white now. That's white with and 'i', not whyte with a 'y'.

 Just kidding. Don't take my post seriously.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 1, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> I totally missed the Gray/Grey spelling issues.   Couldn't understand why the tv show kept coming up in the discussion. But my hair is gray, not grey...
> 
> Here's the relevant Gray's Anatomy.
> 
> .


Per Mirriam-Webster: Gray and grey are both common spellings of the color between black and white. Gray is more frequent in American English, whereas grey is more common in British English.

However, in grade-school I learned the spelling for the color is g-r-e-y.


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## AnnieA (Apr 1, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> However, in grade-school I learned the spelling for the color is g-r-e-y.



In the US?


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## Alligatorob (Apr 1, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> One of my grand daughters is XXY


Are you comfortable telling us what the effects are?  I have never known anyone with XXY.


Murrmurr said:


> However, in grade-school I learned the spelling for the color is g-r-e-y.


Things like that from grade school didn't stick with me.  I use the spellings interchangeably, gray or grey - but maybe that's bad gris-gris.


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## Warrigal (Apr 1, 2022)

Sorry, I made a mistake. She is XXX, not XXY.

She has some cognitive impairment but manages to handle her phone better than I do. 
She cannot hold down a job and lives on a disability pension. She cannot manage maths or budgeting and her mother is her legal guardian. On the weekends she does face painting for children at a local market to make a little extra pocket money. 

Of all my grandchildren (I have six) she is the most loving and attentive and we have a very special relationship.


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## Alligatorob (Apr 1, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Of all my grandchildren (I have six) she is the most loving and attentive and we have a very special relationship.


She sounds like a delightful kid!

So its a little akin to Downes Syndrome?  But a different chromosome?


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## Warrigal (Apr 2, 2022)

Yes. It produces a syndrome of characteristics. My daughter joined an online group when the diagnosis was made and found a lot of commonality with other mothers. There is no typical outward appearance as there is with Downes syndrome.


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## Gaer (Apr 2, 2022)

I remember when men were men 
and women were damn glad of it!


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