# Baghdad is falling



## Davey Jones (Jun 13, 2014)

Obama's thinking what to do about this. planes,ships,drones or even boots on the ground...again.
So whatta we do about this ?

Some in Washington seems to forget these numbers.

*American Deaths*
Since war began (3/19/03):
*4489*
*3528*

Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list)​*4347*
*3424*
Since Handover (6/29/04):
*3627*
*2899*
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09):
*256*
*128*
Since Operation New Dawn:
*66*
*39*
*American Wounded*
*Official*
*Estimated*
Total Wounded:
*32021*
*Over 100000*


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## WhatInThe (Jun 13, 2014)

This is sad, tragic and scary. But it is NOT a surprise. The politicians that were paid to make educated decisions including planning based on the outcomes of previous historical events and/or endeavors FAILED miserably. But we know the previous administration didn't make a decision executing a personal plan instead.

Hey there was plenty of good that was done and could've been done if planned out & executed  properly. And the current events should not take away from the service and accomplishments of the US military-Heroism &  sacrifice in spades. But the previous administration leadership FAILED miserably to learn & plan from the recent history of Vietnam, Bosnia/Serbia or the older history of European colonialism including the British's FAILUREs with many middle eastern possessions. But that was typical colonial arrogance thinking/ASSuming every country wanted western civilization. Even Stormin Norman realized the consequences and responsibilities of turning the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait into a full fledged invasion of Iraq with resources already in place during Gulf War I.

Dictators and police states have failed time and time again in many of these third world countries. Many of these countries have factions that have been battling/feuding for CENTURIES. Occupations literally just delay the inevitable. You need to get a couple of generations away from conflict before many of these countries and people will change their ways. 

Again I salute the troops and admire there service, bravery and accomplishments but this is not a surprise nor should it be.

PEACE!


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## Fern (Jun 13, 2014)

I say leave them alone, let them fight their own battles, it was a foregone conclusion, that once the forces started moving out, it was only time before it would all blow up again. There is no peace when you have Tribalism, whether it be religious or otherwise.


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## Shirley (Jun 13, 2014)

Those people have been fighting and killing each other for over 2000 years. You can't impose  peace on anyone. I think we should get our butts out of there and let them have at it.


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## Warrigal (Jun 13, 2014)

The Middle East is Northern Ireland writ large. The Sunni/Shiite conflict is a big part of this mess and only the muslims can come to terms with the centuries-old differences between them. Post colonial resentment of the West is another issue and western interventions need to be handled with some degree of finesse. Drones and cluster bombs do not win hearts and minds.

I don't know what is to be done for the best, or even what can be done but I'm inclined to think that working behind the scenery might be the best option because what has been done in the past has only strengthened the hand of the terrorist organisations.

Before the beginning of the Second Gulf War I wrote to our Prime Minister urging him not to commit Australian troops to that conflict. Having seen what had occurred in Afghanistan I considered the inevitable civilian losses to be too high, particularly the toll on women and civilians who always bear the brunt. He wrote back and talked about weapons of mass destruction. I know that Sadaam Hussein was a monster but that was not the reason given for that particular military expedition. Also, the Iraqi people are not that much better off post Hussein. Iraqi Christians have lost any protection that they once had and have had to leave the country.

With what is happening now, the Shiite population will probably be displaced but they should find refuge in Iran. Diplomatic channels to that country should be strengthened to curtail the ISIS influence. That's all I've got to offer.

If America does resolve to attempt a military intervention, our PM will commit Australian troops as well. He is very hairy chested and has just agreed to an expansion of American bases in our north. The Australian Prime Minister has enormous power in this area. He doesn't even have to consult parliament, much less the people. It will actually make him more popular with the electorate and with his low ratings at the moment he certainly could use a boost in popular opinion. Pardon me if I sound cynical but I do think there should be more cogent reasons to send troops overseas to fight than the political situation at home.


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## Jackie22 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Obama says chaos in Iraq could endanger U.S. interests 

In an appearance at the White House, President Obama said he is reviewing options on ways the United States might help the deteriorating situation in Iraq, and that U.S. interests could be endangered. He said U.S. ground troops will not be sent, adding that ultimately, it is up to the Iraqis to solve their problems. 

more 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2f9-11e3-9ebc-2ee6f81ed217_story.html?hpid=z2 *


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## Warrigal (Jun 13, 2014)

Chaos anywhere could endanger US interests. The question is how to protect them with without causing future chaos.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 13, 2014)

re:*In an appearance at the White House, President Obama said he is reviewing options on ways the United States might help the deteriorating situation in Iraq, and that U.S. interests could be endangered.

 He forgot to mention OIL that the U.s. imports from there.
Get ready for an 8 to 10 cents gas prices increase.*


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## Bettyann (Jun 13, 2014)

Just so he won't pull a Bush and say "BRING IT ON!" and make up lies about WMD... Ultimately it will be the real powers behind the throne who will determine if we are going to 'help' out again or not. I hope and pray NOT.


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## Warrigal (Jun 13, 2014)

So do I because where America leads militarily Australia tags along.
We, the people of OZ, have absolutely no say about it.

Our military is keen to go, the government becomes more popular, at least in the early stages, and the media has a field day of gung ho patriotism and sells a lot of papers and advertising space.

Later, when soldiers blood has been spilled it is considered unpatriotic to be at all negative.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 14, 2014)

I don't think the news reporting is explaining just how serious this threat from ISIS is.. they are more violent than any other group, beheading people and I shutter to even say it, but they are killing people in the way Christ died.

They are also extremely well funded, when they took over the banks in Mosul they obtained 237 million dollars to further fund their progression of horrors.

THEY ARE OUR MOST SERIOUS THREAT TO WORLD PEACE SINCE WW2,  AND THEY MAKE AL QUADA LOOK LIKE WIMPS.


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## Justme (Jun 14, 2014)

The West should NEVER have invaded Iraq in the first place, is was a BIG MISTAKE. As bad as Saddam was, their misguided actions have left it in a worse mess than it was before!


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2014)

And strengthened the islamist cause all over the Middle East and the Far East.


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## Justme (Jun 14, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> And strengthened the islamist cause all over the Middle East and the Far East.



Very true!


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 14, 2014)

I don't think we should have invaded Iraq.

 However:

 1 ) you can't say that is the reasons the Islamists have become more dangerous, that's like blaming the Jews doe the for angering the Germans and causing the holocaust.


2) Perhaps it would be helpful to study a bit more about the recent history of the Islamic terrorists and what their goals are.

3) Things in the world and the Middle East are entirely different than they were when we invaded Iraq...
and it has to be examined  in light of those many changes.


New day new time, and perhaps our deadliest enemy yet to come out of the terrorist communities..is ISIS

They are extremely  RICH

Well armed , well organized and deadly.

What is the solution ?

I haven't a clue certainly not invading any country, but people need to have their awareness raised of these new threats to Democracy.

 In our New world, there  is no such thing as" Those threats are over there, and we are over here."

It no  longer works that way, unfortunately


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## Davey Jones (Jun 14, 2014)

Ive been very suspicious of any President that says "no U.S. boots on ground",its just as bad as saying "mission accomplished".


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 14, 2014)

The Islamists are not beheading people en masse, crucifying people, and  marching into Baghdad because we invaded Iraq !

Please read some history and stop blaming the victims for the horrors  of the terrorists.. 

it was after all 9/11 that started all of this,

Don't forget about that !


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## Davey Jones (Jun 14, 2014)

Only solution I got is to just keep bombing them till they yell "UNCLE". Praise Allah


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2014)

I heard this morning that they are spilling out from Syria into Irag. The Sunnis are ganging up on the Shia.
This does not seem like terrorism. It is more like a grab for power and part of a regional civil war.
It will go on until one side or the other wins or until both sides are exhausted and depleted IMO.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 14, 2014)

When they start beheading, and crucifying people...

 if that isn't terrorism I don't know what is... !


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2014)

Some people would describe bunker busters, smart missiles, daisy cutters and drones as terrorism too. 
Especially if they have been aimed at you and you are not a militant.
However these, and savage reprisals/executions, are just different methods of waging war.

IMO terrorism is bombing a plane, a railway station or an embassy. 
The targets are symbolic and mostly affect civilians.

Syria has long been a worry but for some reason has been left alone to make mischief in Lebanon for decades.
To understand what is going on it would probably be informative to see a map showing predominant Sunni vs Shiite regions.
The Sunnis are the majority sect.

Elysabeth, do you have a reference for the crucifixions? I haven't seen a report on this yet.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 15, 2014)

"However these, and savage reprisals/executions, are just different methods of waging war"


So Rapes,  beheadings and crucifixions are just another way of waging war...???? 

You have GOT to be kidding.

These things are an abomination by ANY standards !


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

War is an abomination and civil wars are the worst.

However I remember stories of crucifixions during WW II and a bit or research indicates that it does happen.



> *History of Crucifixion
> **Persia and Alexander *
> Crucifixion probably originated with ancient Persians. There is evidence, that captured pirates were crucified in the port of Athens in the 7th century BC. Alexander the Great introduced the practice throughout his empire. He once crucified a general who disagreed with his campaign plans.
> 
> ...



More info here: http://www.shestokas.com/guest-commentary-reflections/the-criminal-penalty-of-crucifixion-2/

*



			Crucifixion in the Modern World
		
Click to expand...

*


> Though of ancient origin and brutal in its application, crucifixion has survived to modern times in parts of the world. German soldiers are said to have crucified a Canadian during World War I. In Japan it was used for prisoners[6] during World War II. Crucifixion as a criminal punishment remains as part of Iran’s Islamic Criminal Law.  Crucifixion survives as part of the penal code in Sudan. In March, 2013, a man convicted of armed robbery in Saudi Arabia was sentenced to be crucified for three days.



This refers to the events I remembered about WW II and a bit more about what is happening now



> There were also cases where Japanese soldiers crucified people in World War Two.
> The best documented is that of three Australian prisoners of war working on the Thailand-Burma railway, who were sentenced to death for killing cattle. Bound to a tree, only one of them survived - Herbert James "Ringer" Edwards, who became the inspiration for the character Joe Harman in Nevil Shute's novel, A Town Like Alice.
> 
> Disturbing photographs recently emerged from Syria showing the bodies of two executed men hanging on crosses.
> ...


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## Vivjen (Jun 15, 2014)

I feel that this is less terrorism; more tribalism.

This type of mass executions, rape, and killing of civilians has been going on in sub-Saharan Africa for years.
remember Ruanda?
also in republic of Congo, at present, and Sudan and south Sudan ; civilians are being killed in their thousands, and hundreds of thousands are displaced.

However; not much oil in the Congo...although there are precious metals...


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

I see it as little different to the practice of displaying heads on spikes in medieval England as a warning to others. It was always meant to be a deterrent to those who would defy authority.

IMO, the Islamic world is at least 500 years behind the West, notwithstanding the civilised veneer of the educated classes.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 15, 2014)

One would hope that civilization has moved on since the displaying of heads on spikes.

Examples of where others used crucifixion, does not justify it... at all,

 by your reasoning, it would seem that any atrocity is justifiable , if it has been done before.


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

It is not justifiable at all. If you read my posts I am against the death penalty for criminals so I would hardly justify war atrocities.
What I am saying that what we are seeing currently is not what I would characterise as terrorism. At least, not the same thing as bombing aeroplanes and embassies or crowded markets. These actions are part of more organised military attacks and so far it is a civil war. 

IMO it does not pay to buy into a civil war too readily. They go on and on for generations.

I've been reading an account in the Washington Post that talks about the different groups that are in conflict. The conflict goes beyond Iraq. Syria and Iran are involved. The whole area is destabilising rapidly.

http://news.google.com.au/news/url?...D&bvm=section&did=-1148531441557282714&ssid=h

From the UK and Australia point of view I think the biggest threat is from young men who rush over there to take sides in this civil war, become radicalised and then come home again. This is where future terrorists are likely to cause trouble away from the Middle East. It is a challenge for our intelligence services.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 15, 2014)

I guess we can now add "Its all Bush/Obama Fault"


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## Vivjen (Jun 15, 2014)

Tony Blair says that it is not his fault.....and he is a Middle East envoy.......


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## Shirley (Jun 15, 2014)

Only to the extent that they tried to declare peace between people who will not have peace.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 15, 2014)

Analyst: Fall Of Baghdad Would Make Current Gas Prices ‘Look Like A Bargain’

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014...-make-current-gas-prices-look-like-a-bargain/


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

I'm thinking that it is the fault of thinking that these conflicts are able to be confined within national borders. Military action in Iraq without attention to Syria is possibly as much a cause as anything else. Syria has no oil ? 

Once Saddam was deposed and after the internal insurrection damped down, didn't power transfer from the Sunnis to the Shiites? Syria was/is Sunni and Iran is Shiite. After Syria imploded, I suppose the fanatics took advantage to grab power and military armaments. Such people are never content with small conquests. They want more. Iran has no option but to oppose them or risk isolation and annihilation. 

I don't understand all the ins and outs of this situation. I just hope the diplomats and foreign affairs specialists do.


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## Denise1952 (Jun 15, 2014)

Shirley said:


> Those people have been fighting and killing each other for over 2000 years. You can't impose  peace on anyone. I think we should get our butts out of there and let them have at it.



I have to agree, I like to help others, but it's true, this is not going to stop.  I truly believe that.  It's like one of those feuds in the South that never ends, because (I think) they don't want it to end, just my opinion.


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

My grasp of history is rather weak and I have to keep looking things up. In my mind are two phrases relating to European history. I've heard of the Hundred Years War and the Thirty Years War. These long running wars were essentially about conflicting claims to land and power. 

Deutche Welle has an article suggesting that we could be seeing the start of another Thirty Years War. It does call the ISIS leader a terrorist, which he certainly is. But he aims to be much more than that.



> *Opinion: Thirty Years' War in the Middle East?*
> 
> The leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, is in the process of starting a religious war in the Middle East, one that could go on for a very long time, writes DW's editor-in-chief, Alexander Kudascheff.
> 
> ...


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## Ina (Jun 15, 2014)

Dame, I don't think there is much we can or should do over there anymore. Other than funding and arms, they really don't want "any" of us in their countries. They have shown that more outside intervention is unwelcome, and has persistently disregarded all attempts for change.
It might be time for all of us to think defensively, and spend our money's accordingly.  :dunno:


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## Warrigal (Jun 15, 2014)

I agree. And brace for more and more refugees on the move.
The whole world could be destabilised, starting with the Middle East, Africa and Europe.
Israel is certainly very vulnerable. This is where and why the US will most likely be drawn in.
We should forget about foreign oil. Other sources of energy are available for much of our needs.


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## Ina (Jun 15, 2014)

We here and all over should be making our voices heard. No more. We have to quit playing their game, they are much better at it than we ever will be. Their motivations are at opposite ends than ours.  They are using oil to manipulate us for their religious desires. They are living for religion, and it has been so for hundreds of years. As long as we fight alternative energies, they will have a way to gather arms.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 16, 2014)

I certainly agree with that, Dame Warrigirl. the returning soldiers, pose a danger to us..

although They have already been radicalized before they went to fight.

Sadly many are radicalised in Great Britain. 

Not sure it is the biggest threat, but it is the most immediate one certainly.

Geography is not the problem, whether it is Syria or Iraq.. the problem is with the twisted hate fuelled Muslim Clerics who have

 distorted the religion of Islam, and pump out  hatred. 

Everyone is afraid of them including the moderate Muslims who are afraid to speak out


Since you are very interested in this subject,  I suggest that you Read more about ISIS...


And also  an excellent Book called about the radicalization of youth in Britain, one man's experience:

Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism 

by Maajid Nawaz  



Maajid Nawaz spent his teenage years listening to American hip-hop and learning about the radical Islamist movement spreading throughout Europe and Asia in the 1980s and 90s. At 16, he was already a ranking member in Hizb ut-Tahrir, a London-based Islamist group. He quickly rose through the ranks to become a top recruiter, a charismatic spokesman for the cause of uniting I...more

Wonderful, insightful book, I learned a LOT!


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## Warrigal (Jun 16, 2014)

Thanks, Elysabeth. I'm aware of the radicalisation that is happening in England. I hope that over time they will become isolated within the English muslim community and lose relevance. The radical clerics and prayer halls need careful and continuous watching but I'm sure the authorities are doing just that, and from the inside too.


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## Elyzabeth (Jun 17, 2014)

They will not become irrelevant, that is a pipe dream.

 If you honestly want to understand this problem,
read the book I mentioned, you can probably get it at the library.

You can then speak with a bit more understanding about the radicalization progress and problems,
 and how it can be addressed realistically. I think that your predictions, at present, are a bit on the naïve side

 The author is now active in trying to help to stop such radicalizations from taking place


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## Warrigal (Jun 17, 2014)

I admit to being a bit naïve because I try to see hope in every situation.
I place my hope in those people charged with protecting the public.

I also place my trust in education and an inclusive society.

That's why my nickname is Pollyanna.


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## drifter (Jun 17, 2014)

The President said no boots on the ground. I hope he sticks to it and adapts a wait and see policy. One war at a time, please and we've already spent ten years over there. Let Syria and Iran help out their favorite factions while we close down Afghanistn and bring our troops home, give them a nice rest and then maybe we can pick and choose our next war.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 17, 2014)

drifter said:


> The President said no boots on the ground. I hope he sticks to it and adapts a wait and see policy. One war at a time, please.


  He is sending 300-400 troops over there to protect the embassy,so thats BOOTS ON THE GROUND.  
Who's kidding who here.


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## drifter (Jun 17, 2014)

You've got a point there. Remember how Viet Nam started, how Iraq started. It's been a successful method of entrance into a wider conflict. I guess sthe president had to do that because John McCain and lindsey Graham were about to bust a gut. Maybe others, too.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 18, 2014)

I remember,I think, we sent "advisors" to Vietnam to train their military,I think Korea falls in that category too.


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## Vivjen (Jun 18, 2014)

No boots on ground; air strikes instead?


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## Davey Jones (Jun 18, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> No boots on ground; air strikes instead?



Obama ruled air strikes out.


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## Fern (Jun 18, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Obama ruled air strikes out.


that's interesting, he was talking of air strikes, so no boots on the ground, no air strikes, what then, !! no action will be taken, yere right.


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## Shirley (Jun 18, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> I remember,I think, we sent "advisors" to Vietnam to train their military,I think Korea falls in that category too.




Yep, works every time. We send "Advisers" , they kill a few of them. We can't let them get away with that so we send the troops in.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 18, 2014)

Fern said:


> that's interesting, he was talking of air strikes, so no boots on the ground, no air strikes, what then, !! no action will be taken, yere right.




Lets put it this way,lately he has no idea what the hell he is doing...His rating have dipped to a new low according wall street/nbc polls.


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