# Chitchat on anything thread



## Ina (Mar 8, 2014)

I've noticed that some folks are a little upset when the theme of a thread is hijacked, so I was wondering if we could have a thread for silly chatter?  :tongue: What do you think? Is it within the rules? :hiteachother:


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## That Guy (Mar 8, 2014)

It is rude to interrupt right away, but once the subject of a thread has run it's course, I say so what if it goes off track.  That's the fun of informal conversation.  Sheesh!  Lighten up, folks.  And now . . . let the hijacking begin...


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## Ina (Mar 8, 2014)

I thought they called that hijinks TG.  I'm with you, but you first. :hide: I'm shy!! Remember!


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## Falcon (Mar 8, 2014)

I was thinking just the other day that too much sugar is bad for you.  What do YOU think ?


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 8, 2014)

I think too much sugar is bad for your health, as it can cause inflammation and overweight, which leads to disease.  Moderation is good, I'd rather have a little sugar or honey than all of those harmful artificial sweeteners out there.


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## Ina (Mar 8, 2014)

Sea, Does that mean I can have some Lifesaver's Gummies?


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## Falcon (Mar 8, 2014)

I agree with you Seabreeze.  I only use a little in my coffee and on cereal.


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## That Guy (Mar 8, 2014)

Falcon said:


> I was thinking just the other day that too much sugar is bad for you.  What do YOU think ?



Only if it leads to hijacking on a sugar high . . .


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## Denise1952 (Mar 8, 2014)

That Guy said:


> It is rude to interrupt right away, but once the subject of a thread has run it's course, I say so what if it goes off track.  That's the fun of informal conversation.  Sheesh!  Lighten up, folks.  And now . . . let the hijacking begin...



Ditto and awesome input TG!!


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## Denise1952 (Mar 8, 2014)

yeah, to me, getting folks into conversation is what it's about.  I agree if someone sets a topic we might try to touch on it, and as TG said, after it's run it's course, who cares! We're communicating and hopefully having fun with it.  It would be like some stuffy old meeting at work with a strict agenda otherwise.  On here, it's easy enough to bring it right back around to the topic if someone wants more of it.


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## Vivjen (Mar 8, 2014)

nwlady said:


> yeah, to me, getting folks into conversation is what it's about.  I agree if someone sets a topic we might try to touch on it, and as TG said, after it's run it's course, who cares! We're communicating and hopefully having fun with it.  It would be like some stuffy old meeting at work with a strict agenda otherwise.  On here, it's easy enough to bring it right back around to the topic if someone wants more of it.



I agree entirely; and I do try not to hijack too often; but I must plead guilty sometimes....sorry!


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## Denise1952 (Mar 8, 2014)

Falcon said:


> I was thinking just the other day that too much sugar is bad for you.  What do YOU think ?



I was thinking that if you blow your nose on a tissue and it doesn't hold, then maybe you need to invest in better tissues.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ina said:


> Sea, Does that mean I can have some Lifesaver's Gummies?



I buy a bag of M&M peanuts, the dollar size, and hide them all over my place.  The when I gotta have one, I go hunt one down.  I'm too lazy to hunt them all at once.  This works surprisingly well at limiting my sugar consumption:nicethread:


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## Ina (Mar 8, 2014)

Denise,  I bet you just don't know. That's OK, I totally at sea. (((HUGS)))


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## Denise1952 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ina said:


> Denise,  I bet you just don't know. That's OK, I totally at sea. (((HUGS)))



did I upset you about the m&m's Ina:sorry: or was it Gerald??


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 8, 2014)

Ina, I'm sure you've started this thread because you thought I was yelling at you about hijacking a thread.  I'm very surprised that you would take it as something against you personally.  If you took it as something against you, I apologize.  

I said that I didn't want to hijack Justme's religion thread, out of respect for her. It's because my dog is very sick right now, and talking about his diseases can go on and on.



> Originally Posted by *Ina*
> 
> Sea, I love the cowboy poem. Hope you're OK, you've been sort of quite lately.  (((Hug)))





> SeaBreeze=Thanks Ina.  I don't want to hijack this thread on another topic, but I've been kind of busy with my dog, he's having some health issues that we're working on.  I'll probably post about him in the "All About Dogs" group, after we get results from his second blood test on Monday...more details in the dog group next week.



I'm glad you started this thread though, maybe I could share what my dog has been going through.  He's 11 1/2 years old, and since he's a larger dog, that's pretty up there in years.

His arthritis had gotten much worse in the last month, and the Rimadyl medicine had to be given to him at much higher doses.  He can no longer jump into the car or on the bed, but when we help him up, he screams in pain.

We had to take him to the vet because he had a nasal infection so bad that he had trouble breathing.  They put him on an antibiotic, but it didn't cure him completely.

Then, last week or so, he stopped eating.  And this is a dog that is normally food driven, so we knew something was wrong.  We took him to the doctor again, and they said he had a 104 degree temperature, and his spleen was very inflamed.

He was put on Prednisone and more antibiotics, including an injection.  Then they did some bloodwork.  The vet said that his condition was very serious.  He has developed a serious auto-immune disease, where the body attacks its own red blood cells.  The bad thing is, he can't take any NSAIDS (Rimadyl) while he's on this medication, so he has no relief from his arthritis pain.  The vet said he was at 40% of his joint movement only.

He has to go in for another blood test on Monday, and we'll see if he's getting any better with the medicine or worse.  Regardless, it seems that he will be on medication for the rest of his life if he gets through all this.  The auto-immune disease he has is IMHA.  The reason why he was screaming so bad when me or my husband tried to pick him up, was because of his swollen spleen.

Again Ina, I'm sorry if you thought I was jumping on you for hijacking a thread.  I just didn't want to hijack it myself,  and turn it into too many posts about my dog. 

 Thanks again for asking about me in that other thread, we've been very concerned here are home, with an ailing furkid in the house.  The good thing is he has started to eat a little bit again with the Prednisone and high-dose antibiotic treatment.  He has enough medicine to last a month, then the vet will let us know what he needs to take. He hasn't been able to go for walks in the park at all, which he loved, because his footing is unsteady and his balance if off.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 8, 2014)

Well, we were happy that the dog was starting to eat again, but after we gave him his evening medicine, he vomited everything up.  It's important that he get that Prednisone twice a day, so we gave that to him again.  He vomited two more times after that.  He won't get well if he can't even keep his medicine down.

I've been scrubbing carpets and washing rugs trying to keep up with him.  Will try and give him his pill again, hopefully he'll keep it down for the night.  Hoping not to get any bad news after his blood test results on Monday.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 8, 2014)

This is the bad part about having a pet. I hope things resolve themselves soon, for both your sakes.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks for the kind words Phil...hard to see them suffer when they get up in years.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 8, 2014)

It's continuing, he's thrown up several more times, and we noticed some coagulated blood in the last two vomits.  Hoping he lasts till Monday to see the vet.  He's just laying there between episodes...been a bad month or so for him all around.  The blood may be from his spleen, or maybe something else.  Been googling around and it's very depressing.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 8, 2014)

_That doesn't sound good SB, do you have emergency vets you can take him too, judging by what you said in a previous post this is serious and need attention pronto, so frustrating because they can't tell us how they feel and what's happening with them.
            Good luck with your furkid SB_


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## That Guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I'm so sorry to hear of your puppy's problems and agree with Jillarro that an emergency trip to a vet is in order.


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## Vivjen (Mar 9, 2014)

Thinking of you SB; please continue hi-jacking threads if it is important to you......and your dog is.
please keep us posted...


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 9, 2014)

Thank you very much Jilly, That Guy, Vivjen, Old Hipster and Ozarkgal.  You guys are great, and I very much appreciate your concern and support. :love_heart:  He had a quiet night last night and slept through.  I was able to give his medicine this morning with a little food.  I was able to contact his vet, and he advised me to cut back on Hans' food intake today, and continue with the meds for now.  I'll be taking him in tomorrow morning, so we'll keep our fingers crossed.  Probably won't know anything until the new blood test results come in.  Thanks again, your caring replies and well wishes make things a bit easier.


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## Falcon (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi Seabreeze,  Happy to see that Hans' condition is improving and that his continued medication will get him back to normal soonest.

I hate to see a sick animal.....not their usually happy self with their tail wagging.....which is equivalent to smiling.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 9, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> It's continuing, he's thrown up several more times, and we noticed some coagulated blood in the last two vomits.  Hoping he lasts till Monday to see the vet.  He's just laying there between episodes...been a bad month or so for him all around.  The blood may be from his spleen, or maybe something else.  Been googling around and it's very depressing.



Oh Seabreeze, I am so sorry about your dog  I have known that heartache of wanting to do something for them, but feeling so helpless.  I don't want to try a play vet, but have you tried any vanilla yogurt to settle his stomach?  I dont' have a clue if it would help it's the only thing I can think of.  I'm going back up to read the rest of your posts darling, my thoughts and prayers are with all, Denise


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## Denise1952 (Mar 9, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Ina, I'm sure you've started this thread because you thought I was yelling at you about hijacking a thread.  I'm very surprised that you would take it as something against you personally.  If you took it as something against you, I apologize.
> 
> I said that I didn't want to hijack Justme's religion thread, out of respect for her. It's because my dog is very sick right now, and talking about his diseases can go on and on.
> 
> ...



I don't see anywhere you said anything wrong J, I don't know what this is all about but with all the heartache we all go through, and the awful things happening in our world, there is always room for more love for one another.  Guess I sound like a preacher, oh well, I don't care.  You are a kind and loving lady, and I am with you.  The truth is, none of us here truly know each other's hearts, have any of us actually met anyone here in person, probably not.  We "guess" what people mean, sometimes it's all too clear and it can be hurtful.  Maybe we didn't mean something but it just came out that way, maybe we did mean it because we are in such pain over something in life, we strike out at those around us.  Who knows, and this may sound like one of those "play nice" yarns but it's more of a forgive us our rotten attitudes we may have, or our mistakes, omg, the unpardonable sin.

If we have a place here we can at least know people aren't going to throw us out when we are imperfect, well, I'd say we are very blessed (don't ask me by what as I don't know anymore about God or any of that).


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 9, 2014)

Thanks Falcon.  Nwlady, your a very wise woman, and your thoughts and words are so kind.  I do appreciate your thoughtfulness and insightfulness.  We have given him some greek yogurt plain, but trying not to give him too much of anything today.  Hugs, and thanks for being here for me.  Some wonderful folks here that's for sure! :love_heart:


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## Denise1952 (Mar 9, 2014)

Oh, you were up on that already, the yogurt.  I know I read that the 5 cultured types go in and kill the bad bacteria. I so hope it help hans. You hang in there and keep us posted k? denise


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## Ina (Mar 10, 2014)

I know you peeps are going to fill my ears with all kinds recriminations about this question, but I have to ask. I'm having a lot of pain with this IBS condition, and one of few thing that doesn't set it off is Ramen noodle. I put chopped green onions and a  little diced ham in it. The concoction doesn't cause be me any pain. So just how badly am I messing up.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 10, 2014)

Update on Hans...the vet said that the coagulated blood that he was vomiting, was because the auto-immune disease causes internal bleeding, and the blood that is digested will show with a blackened coagulated appearance.

They did more blood work on him this morning, and I just received the results this afternoon.  The vet is very concerned, and the prognosis is very poor.  The disease makes him kill off his red blood cells, which is a bad thing.  His white blood cell count has doubled since last weeks tests, even with his taking his anti-biotics and the Prednisone.  The vet said that if the medicine was helping him, the white blood count would be going down, not doubling.

I don't know much about these blood tests, but his HCT is 19%, and it should be much higher.  The doctor said than when they get down to around 12%, a transfusion is mandatory.  However, the transfusion is rarely successful, as even if they replace all of his blood with healthy blood from a donor, his immune system may destroy all those red blood cells too.  So the vet does not recommend that action.

He gave him an additional medicine to take (Azathioprine), it is supposed to work in conjunction with the Prednisone, and may give him a better result.  We have to take him in again next Tuesday, to monitor his blood levels and see if he's worsening or stabilizing.  The vet said he was surprised that he didn't see improvement this past week with the meds.

Thanks again for all who gave support and wished him well, both on forum and privately.  :love_heart:


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## Ina (Mar 10, 2014)

Sea, let us know about the tests you pooch has. How old is your dog?

I know in my older years that my puppies are so important to my well being.

Izzy, Reba, Amber, and Boo have become our children, and they have entertained us for many years.


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## Falcon (Mar 10, 2014)

I hope it works Seabreeze.  However in many cases some animals instinctly know that their time is up and their systems begin to cease functioning.

That's is what happened to my friends' cat Miranda.........so she had her "put down" as much as she hated to do it.

I hope that isn't the case with Hans but you must consider it.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 10, 2014)

Falcon said:


> I hope it works Seabreeze.  However in many cases some animals instinctly know that their time is up and their systems begin to cease functioning.
> 
> That's is what happened to my friends' cat Miranda.........so she had her "put down" as much as she hated to do it.
> 
> I hope that isn't the case with Hans but you must consider it.



Thanks Falcon.  The vet doesn't show much hope, but we'll know next week if things are stabilizing, improving or worsening.  We have definitely been talking about that possibility, we just had to put our other dog down 3 years ago, and she was younger than him, but suffered with severe epilepsy, hip dysplasia and other issues.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 10, 2014)

*SB i'm sorry to hear about your little furkid Hans, let's hope the meds help him*


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## Pappy (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm sorry for what you are going through as I know the feeling very well. Our little girl had cushings (sp) disease and would just lay right down and scream. The vet said he didn't think she was in pain but I know better. After about 10 episodes of this, we had to make the big decision. That was 7 years ago and we still miss the little gal. Good luck with meds, but your Hans knows what to do.


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## Vivjen (Mar 11, 2014)

Thinking of you.....I know you will do the best thing for your Hans


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks Jilly, Pappy and Vivjen, your kind thoughts mean a lot.  Pappy, I'm so sorry, that must've been horrible for you to go through with your baby girl.  If there was screaming going on, I think I'd be headed to put him to rest much sooner, that's for sure.   Your heart never heals completely with these furkids, tears flow easily when I speak of ones I've lost over the years.

We just had to say good-bye to his younger sister around three years ago.  They were not from the same litter, but they had the same parents and were 1 1/2 years apart in age.  She developed Idiopathic Epilepsy at the age of 5, she had grand mal seizures very often, and she had clusters, so she would have several in one day, wearing all of us out, especially herself.

She was on increasing doses of Phenobarbital, Potassium Bromide and Valium for that.  She'd lose all control of her bodily functions during a seizure, and afterwards she would be almost blinded and fearful of all of us, I think she was hallucinating before seizures, and just seeing shadows after.  She was also on Rimadyl for hip dysplasia and arthritis in her spine.  So she was pretty spaced out there for the last couple of years.

She relied so much on her front legs and shoulders, that eventually they were injured to the point where she could stand, and would scream if we tried to help her.  The meds made her so dopey, she was constantly tripping and falling, even took a tumble down the stairs by the back door, luckily they were carpeted, and she didn't break anything.  She's yelp right after a seizure when getting up from the lying, paddling position, from her hip pain...it was heartbreaking, even Hans seemed to know how sick she was.

I'm up early today, couldn't sleep last night.  Hans looks a bit worse for the wear too.  The Prednisone he's on makes him super thirsty, and he drinks constantly.  Of course that means he has to be let out very often to relieve himself.  Well, we started with this new med in addition to that last night, and he seems even worse.  He was up drinking lots of water every 2 hours, and we were letting him out so there was no accidents in the house.  He's also eating a lot of dirt and grass outside, so I know his stomach is upset from all he's taking.

Hoping for better news next Tuesday, will post an update when I have one.  Thanks. :thankyou: This is Hans on the right, with his baby sister Sigilwig (Sigi) on the left, they were very close from day one.


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

My heart is with all who have lost a pet. The most intense pain for they are such innocents in this world with no agenda unlike the real animal...man.

They just don't live long enough, but the truth is that it never would be the right time to lose one.

My little dog still comes to me in dreams. A little boy in a dog suit he was.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 11, 2014)

Gael said:


> My heart is with all who have lost a pet. The most intense pain for they are such innocents in this world with no agenda unlike the real animal...man.
> 
> They just don't live long enough, but the truth is that it never would be the right time to lose one.
> 
> My little dog still comes to me in dreams. A little boy in a dog suit he was.



I agree completely Gael, and very well said.  Sad you lost your boy, I too often dream of my past kids.


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## Falcon (Mar 11, 2014)

The bottom line is the quality of life of your pet.....if it's suffering, let it go!

 It's like your pet is trying to tell you, "I know how you feel, but I hurt, so please put me to sleep."


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree completely Gael, and very well said.  Sad you lost your boy, I too often dream of my past kids.



Yes, the problem is they feel so close to children to our hearts and nervous system. I always hesitate to say that though, out of respect for parents who have lost children.


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

Falcon said:


> The bottom line is the quality of life of your pet.....if it's suffering, let it go!
> 
> It's like your pet is trying to tell you, "I know how you feel, but I hurt, so please put me to sleep."



Absolutely, been there done that and I have no respect for the "I just can't do it" types who let a pet suffer needlessly because they don't want to face the pain of letting them go. We can do better for animals then people.

I had to watch my mother die a death we wouldn't let an animal suffer.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 11, 2014)

Falcon and Gael, I agree.  They depend on us to do what's right for them, they can't make these decisions for themselves.  I also lost my sister to cancer, and she died in a horrible way with all the chemo and radiation, she was a skeleton when she passed.  If she could have had a Dr. Kevorkian type to put her out of her misery, it would have been the kindest thing to do for her.  That is what I would want myself.


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## Ina (Mar 11, 2014)

Gael said:


> Yes, the problem is they feel so close to children to our hearts and nervous system. I always hesitate to say that though, out of respect for parents who have lost children.



Gail, I've now lost two sons, several old puppydogs, and three kittys that lived well over 20 years. You're right that it isn't the same, but whether you loose a child or a furkid your heart comes apart. Nothing can lessen that pain except time, and good memories. Thank you for understanding the love of all kinds of creatures, of which we are a part.:love_heart:


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

Ina said:


> Gail, I've now lost two sons, several old puppydogs, and three kittys that lived well over 20 years. You're right that it isn't the same, but whether you loose a child or a furkid your heart comes apart. Nothing can lessen that pain except time, and good memories. Thank you for understanding the love of all kinds of creatures, of which we are a part.:love_heart:



So sorry for all those loses, Ina. But I see your heart is still loving and open. Too often losses can lead to bitterness and retreat.


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Falcon and Gael, I agree.  They depend on us to do what's right for them, they can't make these decisions for themselves.  I also lost my sister to cancer, and she died in a horrible way with all the chemo and radiation, she was a skeleton when she passed.  If she could have had a Dr. Kevorkian type to put her out of her misery, it would have been the kindest thing to do for her.  That is what I would want myself.



I hope that as time passes more humane, reasonable approaches will be practiced towards the terminally ill patient.

Also, with the technology in place now familes are often put into unnatural scenarios in which their loved ones are kept going past the time they should have been freed from their bodies and the prolonged suffering is torturous..

People didn't have to go through that years ago.


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## Ina (Mar 11, 2014)

Gail, if I looked to deeply into my depression, I'm not sure I could pull myself up, and I do so love my 71 y/o hubby, can't leave him by himself. Then there are still my furkids, Amber, Reba, Boo, and little Izzy.


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 12, 2014)

Seabreeze, It is just heartbreaking what is happening with Hans. I was hoping that it might be something that was more fixable, but it is not sounding like that is the case here, since even the new meds are not helping any.
Making that final decision is the worst possible thing, and I have had to do that myself when a beloved pet was suffering, not going to get better, and there is nothing more you can do. But sometimes, it is the last way that we can show them our love, is to let them go.
I thought I was going to lose my Chipper a few years back. he had something wrong with his liver, or maybe kidneys, the vets weren't sure. he spent several days at the vet's clinic, and recovered enough that they sent him home; but then he just continued to go downhill, until finally, he just lay there like he was dead, and couldn't even raise his little head.
The vet said there was nothing more they could do for him, and it was not likely that he could recover. Somehow, i found an article online that talked about healing with raw milk. I had a friend with a milk cow, got the milk from her, and was spoon-feeding it to Chipper, each time thinking that it would be the last time.  All the hair on his back came out, and his skin turned black and crusty, like a huge scab, and the testicles were also black and swollen.

A day or two later, he was able to raise his head a little, and actually showed an interest in the milk, and each day he recovered a little more, until he was finally able to walk again. 
He still has a bare spot on his back where the hair never came back, and some days he is very touchy about being picked up, so I know that everything is not right with him, but he has been able to have pretty much a normal life, and is now over 10 years old. He is like having a little Fuzzy Kid, and i don't know what i will do when I lose him.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks Happyflowerlady, he's pretty pathetic looking lately, but Schnauzers often have a sad look about them.  He's pretty weak, we'll just hope for good test results on Tuesday.  Thank goodness Chipper pulled through, I like the idea of healing with natural remedies if possible.  I was using the supplement Dinovite for Hans before the infection and antibiotics started, then I discontinued, figured I'd restart it after the meds were done, since antibiotics would work against the probiotics in there.  Supposed to be very good for dogs with skin infections, etc.  Hugs to your baby boy! :love_heart:


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 12, 2014)

Seabreeze, here is the link to a wonderful page (pretty sure it is the same one I have had all these years) that tells about the healing properties of plain raw milk. it explains why processed milk is so bad for people, yet fresh raw milk is extremely healing.
I don't know if it would help Hans or not, but it seems like you are at about the same desperate "try anything "point as I was with my Chipper. 
I had tried both yogurt and buttermilk, since i remembered my mom used that to cure distemper in puppies when I was growing up, but neither one seemed to help, and then I finally found the raw milk page, and started that, since he could no longer even try to eat, and I was using an eyedropper to feed him with. 

http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/raw_milk_health_benefits.html


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 12, 2014)

With his immune system so low, and his white blood cell count so high HFL, I hesitate to use anything raw with him right now.  Hubby wanted to give him some raw lean ground beef the other day, just to get him to eat something, and I told him that I didn't think it was a good idea.  But thank you for the information and the link, that's definitely something worth looking into in the future.


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## Ina (Mar 12, 2014)

I sure hope no one we know was anywhere near the blast in New York City.


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## Vivjen (Mar 12, 2014)

Ina said:


> I sure hope no one we know was anywhere near the blast in New York City.



Just seen that Ina...gas, which funnily enough is quite comforting I suppose.


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## Ina (Mar 14, 2014)

What do you think of war memorials? This week the city Houston, Texas is honoring the 1914 Battle Ship of Texas. THE  Battleship  of Texas  is the last of it's kind. It was in both WW1 and WW11.  It was built along side one from NY. When the war was over, both ships were headed for the scrape heap.
In 1948/49 the state bought the Texas ship, and it been part of our of Texas history especially for grade school children. I remember crawling all over that ship. I could spend hours trying to get lost.
But, I'm not sure I care for promoting the idea of war to such young children. Do you think I am I over protection.


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 14, 2014)

I don't think that having the warship memorial will not promote the idea of war, just the thought that many of our families have sacrificed their lives to make this country a safe and free place to live.
Those men, and women, that fought in all of the wars have been the ones that protected our country, and I think it is right, and very proper that we should honor their service, they are the real heroes of this country.
I think it is the video games with computer animated soldiers killing other people that promotes war in young peoples minds.


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## Ina (Mar 14, 2014)

I hand't thought of it that way. Thank you HFL FOR the different view point. The people here have many viewpoints. Even money for the maintenance is an issue. I was wondering what people from afar thought.


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## Ina (May 16, 2014)

Ina said:


> I've noticed that some folks are a little upset when the theme of a thread is hijacked, so I was wondering if we could have a thread for silly chatter?  :tongue: What do you think? Is it within the rules? :hiteachother:




Is this the thread you were asking about Davey? I started it on 3/8/'14, but no one used it for very long.


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