# What are the reasons some do not wear masks or will not be vaccinated?



## Serenity4321

I really do not get it..seems there are many, I am seeing some here in Florida, who do not think they should wear a mask or be vaccinated. I especially do not understand the thinking that it is '_one's right'_ to decide whether they will or will not wear a mask...I certainly do not find them comfortable but a _necessary evil.._jk on the evil...I can almost understand how some have become frightened by the side effects discussions regarding the vaccine...Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation


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## Becky1951

For medical reason's I'm not vaccinated. I do wear a mask. I do believe its a personal choice to be vaccinated. 

"Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation"

Seems to me it was nonsense for the CDC to assume that vaccinated people could stop wearing masks 2 weeks after second shot.  The studies on the trial of the vaccines didn't include enough time to make certain that vaccinated persons could have breakthrough cases that spread the virus.

Also they assumed that the vaccines probably would protect future variant's obviously since they had dropped the wear a mask recommendation.  Too much assuming by the CDC and the "experts".


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## John cycling

Serenity4321 said:


> What are the reasons some do not wear masks or will not be vaccinated?



The #1 reason for me is doing my own research and having the intelligence to not do unhealthy and life destroying things.
Wearing a mask significantly reduces the oxygen supply to the body and blocks the elimination of waste products from the lungs.
Low level of oxygen <-- in adult from wearing a mask in just a few seconds.
High levels of CO2 <-- in 11 year old child from wearing different masks in just a few seconds.

Being injected with well known poisons is quite likely to be devastating to one's quality of life and life span.
Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <--
Scientific Truth - as opposed to vaccination controlled media fear mongering propaganda.

Plus the statement on virus isolation, <-- 
a look at Koch's Postulates <-- in regards to viruses;
and a final refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.


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## win231

Becky1951 said:


> For medical reason's I'm not vaccinated. I do wear a mask. I do believe its a personal choice to be vaccinated.
> 
> "Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation"
> 
> Seems to me it was nonsense for the CDC to assume that vaccinated people could stop wearing masks 2 weeks after second shot.  The studies on the trial of the vaccines didn't include enough time to make certain that vaccinated persons could have breakthrough cases that spread the virus.
> 
> Also they assumed that the vaccines probably would protect future variant's obviously since they had dropped the wear a mask recommendation.  Too much assuming by the CDC and the "experts".


Same here.  I'll wear a mask when required.  Not because I believe it protects, but because I won't make people nervous.
I will not get vaccinated.  Like all health decisions, that's MY choice & no one else's.  Anyone who thinks they have the right to force me to get a vaccine, take a drug, or have a medical procedure knows what they can kiss.
I'll trust _some _doctors & _some _dentists, but I know better than to blindly trust all of them; especially where money is concerned.
Four years ago, a dentist cost me 3 days in Intensive Care & 5 more days hospitalized due to Sepsis.  And I could have died.


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## ProTruckDriver

Three reasons I'm not getting Vaccinated:

 Leukemia ~ White blood cell count is through the roof. Red blood cell count is low.
 Agammaglobulinemia ~ My antibodies are low and my body makes very few. Vaccine is useless to me since it is based on antibodies.
Unknown Long Term Side Effects on this new type vaccine for COVID. This type of vaccine has been used to treat cancer patients since the 1990's *BUT* the cancer vaccine is not a *"One Size Fits All"* vaccine like the COVID vaccine is. The cancer vaccine has been experimentally tested on lab mice / rats before giving it to patients. Humans are the experiment test for the COVID vaccine.
As for the mask, I'll wear it when required. I still don't understand people wearing a mask while driving alone in a vehicle.


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## Nathan

Serenity4321 said:


> I really do not get it..seems there are many, I am seeing some here in Florida, who do not think they should wear a mask or be vaccinated. I especially do not understand the thinking that it is '_one's right'_ to decide whether they will or will not wear a mask...I certainly do not find them comfortable but a _necessary evil.._jk on the evil...I can almost understand how some have become frightened by the side effects discussions regarding the vaccine...*Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation*


Re: *in bold*- That is the logical, sensible position, but logic and sensibility(and sense of duty to fellow man) have been replaced by selfish, emotion driven views fueled by the availability of conspiracy media that has turned millions into ill-informed arm chair experts on immunology and pandemic administration.  One slick Youtube video by some pseudo expert carries more weight with some than decades of medical training and experience.  
Very sad, I always thought we'd all die from a nuclear holicost but instead we'll just slowly choke to death on some else's stupidity.


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## Pepper

What about the ones who won't be vaccinated because they don't want a micro chip installed in their bodies?  And they say *HaHa Government, we gotcha!  We won't have our freedom taken away!*


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## win231

Nathan said:


> Re: *in bold*- That is the logical, sensible position, but logic and sensibility(and sense of duty to fellow man) have been replaced by selfish, emotion driven views fueled by the availability of conspiracy media that has turned millions into ill-informed arm chair experts on immunology and pandemic administration.  One slick Youtube video by some pseudo expert carries more weight with some than decades of medical training and experience.
> Very sad, I always thought we'd all die from a nuclear holicost but instead we'll just slowly choke to death on some else's stupidity.


Yes, isn't it shameful that people don't trust decades of medical training and experience - funded by drug & vaccine manufacturers?
Just 'cuz medical professionals say whatever they are paid to say, doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them.
I trust them; that's why I switched to Camel Cigarettes.


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## Ladybj

Becky1951 said:


> For medical reason's I'm not vaccinated. I do wear a mask. I do believe its a personal choice to be vaccinated.
> 
> "Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation"
> 
> Seems to me it was nonsense for the CDC to assume that vaccinated people could stop wearing masks 2 weeks after second shot.  The studies on the trial of the vaccines didn't include enough time to make certain that vaccinated persons could have breakthrough cases that spread the virus.
> 
> Also they assumed that the vaccines probably would protect future variant's obviously since they had dropped the wear a mask recommendation.  Too much assuming by the CDC and the "experts".


Same here Becky - for me Medical reasons.


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## Nathan

win231 said:


> Yes, isn't it shameful that people don't trust decades of medical training and experience - funded by drug & vaccine manufacturers?
> Just 'cuz medical professionals say whatever they are paid to say, doesn't mean we shouldn't trust them.
> I trust them; that's why I switched to Camel Cigarettes.


Enjoy those Camel cigarettes!


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## Tish

*Well over here Masks are mandatory.
However, we do have our protests over masks, vaccination and lockdown.
I like you can't understand their selfishness.*


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## Irwin

In a related story...

A California teacher is hospitalized after he's allegedly attacked by a parent over face masks on the first day of school
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/us/teacher-parent-fight-face-masks-trnd/index.html

Like I've said before, it's mass psychosis.


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## win231

Nathan said:


> Enjoy those Camel cigarettes!


Yes, & I also enjoy other doctor-endorsed products:
Green Coffee Extract for weight loss
Nugenics for energy, lower blood pressure & cholesterol & ****** stamina ("She'll enjoy it, too")
Lipozene to lose 4 times the weight without changing my diet
Sero Vital for reducing body fat, increasing energy & feeling & looking younger.
Testoterex - more muscle, increased strength &.....uh......feeling 20 again.


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## Nathan

win231 said:


> Yes, & I also enjoy other doctor-endorsed products:
> Green Coffee Extract for weight loss
> Nugenics for energy, lower blood pressure & cholesterol & ****** stamina ("She'll enjoy it, too")
> Lipozene to lose 4 times the weight without changing my diet
> Sero Vital for reducing body fat, increasing energy & feeling & looking younger.
> Testoterex - more muscle, increased strength &.....uh......feeling 20 again.


Sounds like you're listening to the wrong "doctors"!


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## John cycling

Nathan said:


> I always thought we'd all die from a nuclear holicost but instead we'll just slowly choke to death on some else's stupidity.



Unless you don't listen to them!


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## Serenity4321

John cycling said:


> The #1 reason for me is doing my own research and having the intelligence to not do unhealthy and life destroying things.
> Wearing a mask significantly reduces the oxygen supply to the body and blocks the elimination of waste products from the lungs.
> Low level of oxygen <-- in adult from wearing a mask in just a few seconds.
> High levels of CO2 <-- in 11 year old child from wearing different masks in just a few seconds.
> 
> Being injected with well known poisons is quite likely to be devastating to one's quality of life and life span.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <--
> Scientific Truth - as opposed to vaccination controlled media fear mongering propaganda.


Thank you ...I look at it as risk versus reward...I have not gotten a flu shot for years and never had the flu but Covid was something different and for the most part it seems to vaccinate and to wear masks helped
I agree the masks are not comfortable and I do not wear one when I am outside...but inside for a short period of time I think they are beneficial

There are opposing views and it is difficult to sort out the truth from the falsehoods


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## MrPants

Serenity4321 said:


> There are opposing views and it is difficult to sort out the truth from the falsehoods


We must all make our own decisions based on what information we've uncovered and our own good sense as to what seems logical to us. You gotta live with your decision so make sure you're comfortable with it no matter what it is.


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## Brookswood

win231 said:


> Yes, & I also enjoy other doctor-endorsed products:
> Green Coffee Extract for weight loss
> Nugenics for energy, lower blood pressure & cholesterol & ****** stamina ("She'll enjoy it, too")
> Lipozene to lose 4 times the weight without changing my diet
> Sero Vital for reducing body fat, increasing energy & feeling & looking younger.
> Testoterex - more muscle, increased strength &.....uh......feeling 20 again.





John cycling said:


> Unless you don't listen to them!


I don't. And I don't listen to people who cherry pick either the good news or the bad news.      

Thankfully, I have the intelligence to evaluate sources of information for myself. 

I have decided to wear a good N95 type mask indoors in any crowded place as a simple extra precaution.  Of course, I avoid crowded indoor places if practical.   Thankfully, I don't suffer from any respiratory issues that might make breathing in an N95 mask a problem for me.  

My defense against Covid and other respiratory diseases is several layers: vaccination, mask, avoid crowded indoor situations, and seek out well ventilated areas when I must be indoors with others.     The more of these I have, the safer I am. If one fails me, hopefully, I have one or two other protections that will succeed.  If I find I am wrong, I will change my plans for protection.


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## Sunny

Serenity4321 said:


> Thank you ...I look at it as risk versus reward...I have not gotten a flu shot for years and never had the flu but Covid was something different and for the most part it seems to vaccinate and to wear masks helped
> I agree the masks are not comfortable and I do not wear one when I am outside...but inside for a short period of time I think they are beneficial
> 
> There are opposing views and it is difficult to sort out the truth from the falsehoods


I don't think anyone is advocating wearing the masks outside, unless maybe you're in a huge crowd of unmasked people, all yelling, singing, etc.  Even before we had the vaccine, I never wore my mask outdoors when walking alone. What would be the point?


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## Aneeda72

ProTruckDriver said:


> Three reasons I'm not getting Vaccinated:
> 
> Leukemia ~ White blood cell count is through the roof. Red blood cell count is low.
> Agammaglobulinemia ~ My antibodies are low and my body makes very few. Vaccine is useless to me since it is based on antibodies.
> Unknown Long Term Side Effects on this new type vaccine for COVID. This type of vaccine has been used to treat cancer patients since the 1990's *BUT* the cancer vaccine is not a *"One Size Fits All"* vaccine like the COVID vaccine is. The cancer vaccine has been experimentally tested on lab mice / rats before giving it to patients. Humans are the experiment test for the COVID vaccine.
> As for the mask, I'll wear it when required. I still don't understand people wearing a mask while driving alone in a vehicle.


Yup I don’t understand it either but I think it’s because once they have the mask on and have gone out somewhere they don’t want to be contaminated by touching the mask-taking it off, putting it back on.  That’s all I can figure


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## Nosy Bee-54

Sunny said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating wearing the masks outside, unless maybe you're in a huge crowd of unmasked people, all yelling, singing, etc.  Even before we had the vaccine, I never wore my mask outdoors when walking alone. What would be the point?


When I exercised at the park daily during the pandemic I never wore a mask. However, I noticed about 5 per cent of the walkers wore masks. I saw no need to because I was outdoors and whenever passing another walker, I distanced by moving onto the grassy surface. The city had signs along the 1-mile walking track to social distance.


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## Remy

I'm vaccinated and still wearing a mask.

By next month or the first week of next month, my job will require vaccination or you can't work. Someone is leaving and someone else mumbled something about "socialism" today.

I guess at my job there is no choice but it's something I don't have to worry about. Got vaccinated in January, no side effects so far.


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## Irwin

I went to one of those Noodles restaurants this afternoon and all the workers were wearing facemasks. It was really warm and humid in there to the point where I felt uncomfortable with my facemask after just a few minutes. I would guess that the workers were miserable having to wear a facemask all day, but at least they were doing it for the good of society. They all looked like they were in their 20s, so it might not have been that big a deal for them. I did tough physical work when I lived in Houston in my 20s where it would often be in the upper 90s with 90% humidity. You just learn to put up with it.

As a side note, I thought I was in SmashBurgers which was right next door. I really need to wear my glasses when I go out! DOH!


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## MrPants

Irwin said:


> I went to one of those Noodles restaurants this afternoon and all the workers were wearing facemasks. It was really warm and humid in there to the point where I felt uncomfortable with my facemask after just a few minutes. I would guess that the workers were miserable having to wear a facemask all day, but at least they were doing it for the good of society. They all looked like they were in their 20s, so it might not have been that big a deal for them. I did tough physical work when I lived in Houston in my 20s where it would often be in the upper 90s with 90% humidity. You just learn to put up with it.
> 
> As a side note, I thought I was in SmashBurgers which was right next door. I really need to wear my glasses when I go out! DOH!


So .... what did you end up eating? Noodles or smash-burgers? (I hope is was the latter?)
Can't get smash burgers where I live and I'd really like to try one. They sound amazing!!


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## Butterfly

Brookswood said:


> I don't. And I don't listen to people who cherry pick either the good news or the bad news.
> 
> Thankfully, I have the intelligence to evaluate sources of information for myself.
> 
> I have decided to wear a good N95 type mask indoors in any crowded place as a simple extra precaution.  Of course, I avoid crowded indoor places if practical.   Thankfully, I don't suffer from any respiratory issues that might make breathing in an N95 mask a problem for me.
> 
> My defense against Covid and other respiratory diseases is several layers: vaccination, mask, avoid crowded indoor situations, and seek out well ventilated areas when I must be indoors with others.     The more of these I have, the safer I am. If one fails me, hopefully, I have one or two other protections that will succeed.  If I find I am wrong, I will change my plans for protection.



Well said!  I agree.


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## Aneeda72

MrPants said:


> So .... what did you end up eating? Noodles or smash-burgers? (I hope is was the latter?)
> Can't get smash burgers where I live and I'd really like to try one. They sound amazing!!


They are not that great, apparently.  The smash burger at the mall went out of business before the Covid hit.  I though they were ok, but expensive


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## Jennina

Remy said:


> I'm vaccinated and still wearing a mask.
> 
> By next month or the first week of next month, my job will require vaccination or you can't work. Someone is leaving and someone else mumbled something about "socialism" today.
> 
> I guess at my job there is no choice but it's something I don't have to worry about. Got vaccinated in January, no side effects so far.


A while back I saw a woman being interviewed at a protest rally carrying an anti socialism placard.. She was asked to define what socialism is and she didn't know. I laughed at first then realized that was really sad.


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## Pepper

Jennina said:


> A while back I saw a woman being interviewed at a protest rally carrying an anti socialism placard.. She was asked to define what socialism is and she didn't know. I laughed at first then realized that was really sad.


Pathetic, isn't it?


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## Jennina

Pepper said:


> Pathetic, isn't it?


Yes. I wanted to use that word but changed it to sad in case the woman in the video is a member of this forum


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## Chet

Some people are just obstinate. If you say white, they say black. There is no reasoning behind it. It's just the way they are. They are natural born contrarians.


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## Sunny

Serenity, to answer your original question, my answer is:  Politics.

Those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons can probably still wear masks.  But those who won't do either are acting out a stubborn refusal that they backed the wrong horse on this subject.


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## GAlady

John cycling said:


> The #1 reason for me is doing my own research and having the intelligence to not do unhealthy and life destroying things.
> Wearing a mask significantly reduces the oxygen supply to the body and blocks the elimination of waste products from the lungs.
> Low level of oxygen <-- in adult from wearing a mask in just a few seconds.
> High levels of CO2 <-- in 11 year old child from wearing different masks in just a few seconds.
> 
> Being injected with well known poisons is quite likely to be devastating to one's quality of life and life span.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <--
> Scientific Truth - as opposed to vaccination controlled media fear mongering propaganda.
> 
> Plus the statement on virus isolation, <--
> a look at Koch's Postulates <-- in regards to viruses;
> and a final refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.


Thank you for all the information.


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## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> Serenity, to answer your original question, my answer is:  Politics.
> 
> Those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons can probably still wear masks.  But those who won't do either are acting out a stubborn refusal that they backed the wrong horse on this subject.


I think some are for that reason, but not *all*. I also think anyone basing their decisions over Covid strictly due to political affiliation is idiot!


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## Victor

The statistics clearly show the extremely tiny chance of one getting the virus and or dying. I researched this myself several times and posted here. Using variables of age, specific location, gender, etc. the actual probability is like .00004% or whatever. I don't have the data now.T he media deliberately omits this for obvious reasons. Scientists will not tell you this. You can find answers from reliable sources such as New York Times. Moreover, statistics show that COVID deaths are largely from nursing homes and comorbidity cases. The intent of the media is to instill fear.
  I am vaccinated and wear masks when I must. No excuse not to get vaccine. But some people distrust science and medicine but they trust ministers.


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## Becky1951

"Moreover, statistics show that COVID deaths are largely from nursing homes and comorbidity cases"

Yes the very ones who are the most vulnerable and the vaccines were to protect them so they were prioritized to be vaccinated first.


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## John cycling

Becky1951 said:


> Yes the very ones who are the most vulnerable and the vaccines were to protect them so they were prioritized to be vaccinated first.



That so many elderly people have been murdered already by the poisonous vaccinations and treatments / respirators should be a huge red flag to everyone.  Yet some people still continue throwing insults - because that's all they have - at those of us who base our decisions on the true science and who don't fall for their petro-pharma chemical vaccination controlled media psuedoscience BS propaganda.


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## Murrmurr

Chet said:


> Some people are just obstinate. If you say white, they say black. There is no reasoning behind it. It's just the way they are. They are natural born contrarians.


But there ARE reasons behind it. 1) Masks; There is indisputable proof that, except for the N-95 surgical type, masks do not prevent the spread of coronavirus. Tho I know this, I wear a common nurse's mask if I see a sign that says masks required. 2) The vaccine; The mRna vaccine is experimental; no one knows the long-term effect the nucleic acid RNA will have on humans; this particular type of vaccine was not rigorously tested before it was rolled out. Tho I knew this, I was vaccinated. But if I were younger (under 55), I would not have gotten the vaccine.


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## Don M.

Our State Fair is running this week...with over 300,000 visitors expected.  They are taking extra precautions to help insure that this event doesn't result in another surge in illnesses like what has happened in the Lake/tourist regions in recent weeks.  I hope it works out.


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## Aneeda72

Murrmurr said:


> But there ARE reasons behind it. 1) Masks; There is indisputable proof that, except for the N-95 surgical type, masks do not prevent the spread of coronavirus. Tho I know this, I wear a common nurse's mask if I see a sign that says masks required. 2) The vaccine; The mRna vaccine is experimental; no one knows the long-term effect the nucleic acid RNA will have on humans; this particular type of vaccine was not rigorously tested before it was rolled out. Tho I knew this, I was vaccinated. But if I were younger (under 55), I would not have gotten the vaccine.


It’s because the non N95 masks are a bit loose on the face allowing the virus in.  I have both regular masks, N95 masks and the actual 95 or whatever it is called masks.  I wear the N95 at the casino because people from various states are there.


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## Knight

Jennina said:


> A while back I saw a woman being interviewed at a protest rally carrying an anti socialism placard.. She was asked to define what socialism is and she didn't know. I laughed at first then realized that was really sad.


Want some really sad viewing? Look up Jay Leno  "Jay Walking" or "Jay Walking all stars " videos. The people being interviewed are mostly young & the really scary part is they vote.

as an example
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2448A80FF0BA264EDE26244&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


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## Jennina

Knight said:


> Want some really sad viewing? Look up Jay Leno  "Jay Walking" or "Jay Walking all stars " videos. The people being interviewed are mostly young & the really scary part is they vote.
> 
> as an example
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2448A80FF0BA264EDE26244&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


AC/DC means After Christ, Devil Comes  They should have called it Battle of the Brainless.


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## Ladybj

Remy said:


> I'm vaccinated and still wearing a mask.
> 
> By next month or the first week of next month, my job will require vaccination or you can't work. Someone is leaving and someone else mumbled something about "socialism" today.
> 
> I guess at my job there is no choice but it's something I don't have to worry about. Got vaccinated in January, no side effects so far.


I am sooo grateful to be retired.  If someone told me I cannot work if unvax - I would have a problem with that.  I would not have a problem with my employer taking my temp and covid test as often as they please.  But don't push that vax into my body.  I already know, me and the vax would not get along well.


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## Murrmurr

Becky1951 said:


> "Moreover, statistics show that COVID deaths are largely from nursing homes and comorbidity cases"
> 
> Yes the very ones who are the most vulnerable and the vaccines were to protect them so they were prioritized to be vaccinated first.


You mean Expendable People? I'm half-joking....we _were_ the human trial, and fit the category for catching the vaccine's risks early; like, "if anything can go wrong, it will likely be with this group." That's not quite how things turned out, though.


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## Becky1951

Murrmurr said:


> You mean Expendable People? I'm half-joking....we _were_ the human trial, and fit the category for catching the vaccine's risks early; like, "if anything can go wrong, it will likely be with this group." That's not quite how things turned out, though.


Exactly!


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## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> Exactly!


Well, I am certainly expendable but I have not expended yet


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## Brookswood

It seems like Delta is convincing some people that getting vaccinated might be a good idea.    And, even wearing a mask!!!


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## Knight

If there is any good to be found it has to be that the news cycle concerning the border crisis has shifted to the covid crisis again. Two major crisis at one time isn't good for politicians.


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## Brookswood

Knight said:


> Want some really sad viewing? Look up Jay Leno  "Jay Walking" or "Jay Walking all stars " videos. The people being interviewed are mostly young & the really scary part is they vote.
> 
> as an example
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2448A80FF0BA264EDE26244&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


Mr. Leno is an entertainer.   IOW, he is not smarter than any of us. And if wants to jaywalk he probably can afford better lawyers than I can.


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## fmdog44

John cycling said:


> The #1 reason for me is doing my own research and having the intelligence to not do unhealthy and life destroying things.
> Wearing a mask significantly reduces the oxygen supply to the body and blocks the elimination of waste products from the lungs.
> Low level of oxygen <-- in adult from wearing a mask in just a few seconds.
> High levels of CO2 <-- in 11 year old child from wearing different masks in just a few seconds.
> 
> Being injected with well known poisons is quite likely to be devastating to one's quality of life and life span.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <--
> Scientific Truth - as opposed to vaccination controlled media fear mongering propaganda.
> 
> Plus the statement on virus isolation, <--
> a look at Koch's Postulates <-- in regards to viruses;
> and a final refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.


So if wearing a mask is so harmful as you say why aren't all healthcare workers from 100 years back dead at 25? What about the people that wear masks in the work like lab techs ,coaters, sanitation workers, etc,?
Injecting poisons  is bad. Really? No shit? How come we are not all dead from the vaccines we got as children? Why aren't we all dead from flu shots, polio vaccines, shingles shots?


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## Jennina

I wonder how many anti vaxxers are 
against the covid vaccine because 

1) they're against the concept of vaccines in general
2) they don't believe they'll get it cos they're fit and healthy
3) they think the death rate is low 
4) their political party is against it
5) because they believe god is their vaccine


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## Aneeda72

Jennina said:


> I wonder how many anti vaxxers are
> against the covid vaccine because
> 
> 1) they're against the concept of vaccines in general
> 2) they don't believe they'll get it cos they're fit and healthy
> 3) they think the death rate is low
> 4) their political party is against it
> 5) because they believe god is their vaccine


It does not matter why people don’t want to get the shot.  They don’t-period.  They have the right not to get the shot and the rest of society has the right to exclude them from society until they get vaccinated.  Peer pressure can work wonders.

For the few people who actually can’t get a shot for medical reasons, most of people in that position will wear masks, not only for Covid, but for other illnesses they could catch, or they will stay home and self isolate.

While the world makes it an issue, not getting the vaccine, it’s actually a non issue which over time will solve itself, with illness, death, or natural immunity.  In the mean while, “believers” can simply mask up-again as needed.

Masking will protect us from the flu as well and flu season is coming.


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## jerry old

Texas Governor removed mask mandate about ten days ago
Local Counties ignored the removal, made mask mandatory, especially the school superintendents.

They continue...governor alleges, they refused governor mandate, hilarious if it were not so serious
However, with the covid19 surge his rowboat is leaking.


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## Tom 86

I will not wear a mask because I don't get enough O2 when I have one on.  I went into a store that said I had to wear a mask.  So I was walking around & all of a sudden I was on the floor.  They called the EMTs.  They put pure O2 on me for about 20 minutes. 85 years old then.

  Then they ask me if I was using a mask?  I said yes as it says I need one to shop in that store.  They got ahold of the store manager & told him never to ask an older person whose lungs are already impaired to wear a mask as they will get Co2 poisoning & not enough oxygen.  

The same thing happened at my Eye Dr, who puts a shot in my eye.  I had my mask on & was sitting in the procedure chair.  Suddenly, I was falling out of the chair; the nurse caught me & took off the mask so I could get some good O2.  

  I had the one Moderna shot back in Jan of this year.  Been in hospital & ever since Jan. I was so weak I could not do anything.  When the hospital the pulmonary Dr. told me to NEVER get another Covid-19 shot or I will die. 

  Just about 3 weeks ago my strength started coming back so I could start doing things again. 

  I do not listen to the hype they have on tV trying to make everyone feel guilty for not wearing a mask or get the shots.   I'm old for a reason.  I've learned to not listen to Drs &  people on the news media  They are PAID to get on there & say that.

That's my story & I'm sticking to it.


----------



## win231

Tom 86 said:


> I will not wear a mask because I don't get enough O2 when I have one on.  I went into a store that said I had to wear a mask.  So I was walking around & all of a sudden I was on the floor.  They called the EMTs.  They put pure O2 on me for about 20 minutes. 85 years old then.
> 
> Then they ask me if I was using a mask?  I said yes as it says I need one to shop in that store.  They got ahold of the store manager & told him never to ask an older person whose lungs are already impaired to wear a mask as they will get Co2 poisoning & not enough oxygen.
> 
> The same thing happened at my Eye Dr, who puts a shot in my eye.  I had my mask on & was sitting in the procedure chair.  Suddenly, I was falling out of the chair; the nurse caught me & took off the mask so I could get some good O2.
> 
> I had the one Moderna shot back in Jan of this year.  Been in hospital & ever since Jan. I was so weak I could not do anything.  When the hospital the pulmonary Dr. told me to NEVER get another Covid-19 shot or I will die.
> 
> Just about 3 weeks ago my strength started coming back so I could start doing things again.
> 
> I do not listen to the hype they have on tV trying to make everyone feel guilty for not wearing a mask or get the shots.   I'm old for a reason.  I've learned to not listen to Drs &  people on the news media  They are PAID to get on there & say that.
> 
> That's my story & I'm sticking to it.


No comments from the controllers who want everyone to make the same choice they made????
I'm shocked!


----------



## Don M.

Tom 86 said:


> That's my story & I'm sticking to it.



Older people, and especially those with other health issues are at increased risk from this virus....AND probably cannot tolerate the vaccines, or wearing of masks.  Exceptions to the rules and recommendations Should be made for them.  

The younger and healthier people have little, or no, reasons for refusing to accept vaccination and wearing  masks, etc., IMO.  Until the vast majority do so, this pandemic will continue to be a major problem.


----------



## Ladybj

Brookswood said:


> It seems like Delta is convincing some people that getting vaccinated might be a good idea.    And, even wearing a mask!!!


Hasn't convinced me yet... next will be Omega virus.


----------



## Ladybj

fmdog44 said:


> So if wearing a mask is so harmful as you say why aren't all healthcare workers from 100 years back dead at 25? What about the people that wear masks in the work like lab techs ,coaters, sanitation workers, etc,?
> Injecting poisons  is bad. Really? No shit? How come we are not all dead from the vaccines we got as children? Why aren't we all dead from flu shots, polio vaccines, shingles shots?


I don't think lab techs wear the designer mask.  I think they wear the blue mask where you can breathe...those are my favorite..the doctors wear those as well.  The vaccines we got as children..we have no idea how they are effecting us as adults.  There are soo many older adults with all sorts of health problems.   Have not seen any medical records, therefore I cannot connect the dots and probably never will be able to.  Bottom line "We don't know and the medical World don't have all the answers either.  I respect doctors sooo much that say, "we don't know".


----------



## Aneeda72

Ladybj said:


> I don't think lab techs wear the designer mask.  I think they wear the blue mask where you can breathe...those are my favorite..the doctors wear those as well.  The vaccines we got as children..we have no idea how they are effecting us as adults.  There are soo many older adults with all sorts of health problems.   Have not seen any medical records, therefore I cannot connect the dots and probably never will be able to.  Bottom line "We don't know and the medical World don't have all the answers either.  I respect doctors sooo much that say, "we don't know".


Well, I do KNOW one thing, because I got vaccinated, as a young child, I do not have polio, never had polio, and never will have polio.  The so called side effect of the polio vaccine was playing in the rain and NOT getting polio.

I can breathe without an iron lung.  I did not grow up in a hospital.  As I child I did not need a wheelchair and was not made to stay home from school.  I am grateful for the vaccines, the doctors, and the medical world.


----------



## Jules

Ladybj said:


> There are soo many older adults with all sorts of health problems.


When weren’t there, except when people died much younger.  

My older friend who had polio wished she could have had the vaccine.


----------



## Becky1951

You cannot compare former vaccines to the Covid vaccines.

Fact, all those childhood vaccines were studied for years to insure safety.

Fact, the Covid vaccines were not.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> You cannot compare former vaccines to the Covid vaccines.
> 
> Fact, all those childhood vaccines were studied for years to insure safety.
> 
> Fact, the Covid vaccines were not.


Remember, in the “old days” no computers, no large scale testing keeping track of how things went throughout the country.  Just a fat old guy sitting in a basement keeping records.  , it was more of a hit or miss hope we got this nailed technique.  Were the old vaccines safer?  I doubt they were any safer than the, than now.

Think of all the people who object to even the “old” vaccines for their children?  

As the ADA has said many times, they did not cut corners on the vaccine, they cut corners on the red tape to get the vaccine approved.  I am not trying to convince you, or anyone, to take the vaccine.  I am not being harsh, or personal, when I say I don’t care.  I really don’t care if anyone gets vaccinated or not.

In September, I will get my booster shot.  I am “entitled” to the shot since I have an auto immune disease.  I’ll let anyone know if I have side effects.  Frankly, if they are giving in Texas when I am there, I will get it there if possible.  I might be “sick” on the way back, but I’ll be vaccinated, again.


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> Remember, in the “old days” no computers, no large scale testing keeping track of how things went throughout the country.  Just a fat old guy sitting in a basement keeping records.  , it was more of a hit or miss hope we got this nailed technique.  Were the old vaccines safer?  I doubt they were any safer than the, than now.
> 
> Think of all the people who object to even the “old” vaccines for their children?
> 
> As the ADA has said many times, they did not cut corners on the vaccine, they cut corners on the red tape to get the vaccine approved.  I am not trying to convince you, or anyone, to take the vaccine.  I am not being harsh, or personal, when I say I don’t care.  I really don’t care if anyone gets vaccinated or not.
> 
> In September, I will get my booster shot.  I am “entitled” to the shot since I have an auto immune disease.  I’ll let anyone know if I have side effects.  Frankly, if they are giving in Texas when I am there, I will get it there if possible.  I might be “sick” on the way back, but I’ll be vaccinated, again.


Not sure about the fat old guy, could have been along with 20 skinny guys, a few women also taking the time to study the X amount of participants in that study. 

So now we have computers so what?  Can computers see into the future and know how those participants were years later?

No.

I don't care who decides to be vaccinated it's their right to choose, as it should be.


----------



## Rainee

Serenity4321 said:


> I really do not get it..seems there are many, I am seeing some here in Florida, who do not think they should wear a mask or be vaccinated. I especially do not understand the thinking that it is '_one's right'_ to decide whether they will or will not wear a mask...I certainly do not find them comfortable but a _necessary evil.._jk on the evil...I can almost understand how some have become frightened by the side effects discussions regarding the vaccine...Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation


Thats our problem out here the virus is out of control in NSW mainly because people will not stay home as the Premier suggest .stay home and the virus wont spread but so many disobeying and just doing what they like older folks in their home have caught the virus off them and then they go to hospital and many have passed away . surely if they did the right thing it would pass instead of infecting other people  we have been in Lockdown for 7 weeks now and will for another 2 months if it doesn`t get better .
.


----------



## Aneeda72

Rainee said:


> Thats our problem out here the virus is out of control in NSW mainly because people will not stay home as the Premier suggest .stay home and the virus wont spread but so many disobeying and just doing what they like older folks in their home have caught the virus off them and then they go to hospital and many have passed away . surely if they did the right thing it would pass instead of infecting other people  we have been in Lockdown for 7 weeks now and will for another 2 months if it doesn`t get better .
> .


Yes, but it is the ME generation, the millennials.  Nothing must interfere with what I want generation.  This generation that seems to interact more with their phones and computer seems not to understand that people are real.  Unlike a computer game, when a person dies, they don’t jump up and go on living.

Strange times.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> Not sure about the fat old guy, could have been along with 20 skinny guys, a few women also taking the time to study the X amount of participants in that study.
> 
> So now we have computers so what?  Can computers see into the future and know how those participants were years later?
> 
> No.
> 
> I don't care who decides to be vaccinated it's their right to choose, as it should be.


It was 1955. I doubt the involvement of many, if any, women.  I used the ”fat man in the basement” as an analogy to something said by a political entity-now gone but not buried.  . I was being sarcastic.

Computers can track the side effects of millions of people who have been vaccinated, world wide, to see what, if any, of those worrisome side effects of the vaccine are.  As computers are tracking the know side effects of having Covid-19-as in “long haulers”.  So far, the virus is winning in the long term side effect area.


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> It was 1955. I doubt the involvement of many, if any, women.  I used the ”fat man in the basement” as an analogy to something said by a political entity-now gone but not buried.  . I was being sarcastic.
> 
> Computers can track the side effects of millions of people who have been vaccinated, world wide, to see what, if any, of those worrisome side effects of the vaccine are.  As computers are tracking the know side effects of having Covid-19-as in “long haulers”.  So far, the virus is winning in the long term side effect area.


True computers can track what's happening now, but not what the effects of the vaccine could be 3, 4, 5, 10 years from now.

Covid vaccinated persons *are* the long term test subjects.


----------



## Sunny

That's a very good point, Aneeda.  Thanks to the immeasurable help we now get from computers, we are able to know a lot more about the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines, MUCH sooner than in the "good old days."  We can probably learn in seconds what it used to take months, or even years, to find out.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> True computers can track what's happening now, but not what the effects of the vaccine could be 3, 4, 5, 10 years from now.
> 
> Covid vaccinated persons *are* the long term test subjects.


Of course the computers can track the effects for decades.  Why wouldn’t they be able to do that?  I don’t have a long term of life left, so whatever I have left, I’d like to use and not let the virus grab me early.  But, I suppose, that’s just me and millions of other people


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> That's a very good point, Aneeda.  Thanks to the immeasurable help we now get from computers, we are able to know a lot more about the effectiveness and safety of the vaccines, MUCH sooner than in the "good old days."  We can probably learn in seconds what it used to take months, or even years, to find out.


Except for effects in future years.  No way to know that with or without a computer.


----------



## Aneeda72

I am 75 soon.  My future is here.  I have no vaccine side effects.  Before Covid the doctors felt I would not live beyond the age of 75.  Sooo, I am so not worried about the long term side effects of anything.  I am going to enjoy the rest of my time as much as possible.


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> Of course the computers can track the effects for decades.  Why wouldn’t they be able to do that?  I don’t have a long term of life left, so whatever I have left, I’d like to use and not let the virus grab me early.  But, I suppose, that’s just me and millions of other people


No they cannot at this time tell anyone what the future effects will be. No one can until a few years from now. 

Most seniors don't care because their time is limited. But everyone should care about the younger generations.


----------



## John cycling

Aneeda72 said:


> I’ll let anyone know if I have side effects.



How exactly are you going to do that when you're dead?
When you play with fire you get burned. 
When you put well known poisons in your body you're going to suffer the consequences.


----------



## win231

Don M. said:


> Older people, and especially those with other health issues are at increased risk from this virus....AND probably cannot tolerate the vaccines, or wearing of masks.  Exceptions to the rules and recommendations Should be made for them.
> 
> The younger and healthier people have little, or no, reasons for refusing to accept vaccination and wearing  masks, etc., IMO.  Until the vast majority do so, this pandemic will continue to be a major problem.





Becky1951 said:


> True computers can track what's happening now, but not what the effects of the vaccine could be 3, 4, 5, 10 years from now.
> 
> Covid vaccinated persons *are* the long term test subjects.


And they are _unpaid _test subjects; unlike previous test subjects.


----------



## Sunny

Obviously,  no one has a crystal ball. We don't know what the really long term effects are of anything we take into our bodies, and sometimes we have made mistakes. (Thalidomide, tobacco, some drugs that turned out to cause harm.)

But when there is a raging epidemic of a serious, often fatal disease going on right now, and the vaccines appear to be amazingly safe and effective right now, it seems to me sheer insanity to refuse to get it, because "some day down the road" they could discover something bad about it.  (That's true, by the way, of everything we eat, drink, inhale, etc.)


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> Obviously,  no one has a crystal ball. We don't know what the really long term effects are of anything we take into our bodies, and sometimes we have made mistakes. (Thalidomide, tobacco, some drugs that turned out to cause harm.)
> 
> But when there is a raging epidemic of a serious, often fatal disease going on right now, and the vaccines appear to be amazingly safe and effective right now, it seems to me sheer insanity to refuse to get it, because "some day down the road" they could discover something bad about it.  (That's true, by the way, of everything we eat, drink, inhale, etc.)


Every drug & product you mentioned (including tobacco) was endorsed & advertised by *doctors *_who said what they were paid to say; just as with the Covid vaccine. _ And just as they do now with useless weight-loss and "Look & feel younger" supplements.
You'll find a doctor praising the effectiveness & safety of a product wherever the money is.


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> Obviously,  no one has a crystal ball. We don't know what the really long term effects are of anything we take into our bodies, and sometimes we have made mistakes. (Thalidomide, tobacco, some drugs that turned out to cause harm.)
> 
> But when there is a raging epidemic of a serious, often fatal disease going onthe vaccines appear to be amazingly safe and effective right now, it seems to me sheer insanity to refuse to get it, the vaccines appear to be amazingly safe and effective right now, it seems to me sheer insanity to refuse to get it, because "some day down the road" they could discover something bad about it.  (That's true, by the way, of everything we eat, drink, inhale, etc.)


"the vaccines appear to be amazingly safe and effective right now, it seems to me sheer insanity to refuse to get it"

Right now yes, but numbers are rising of the vaccinated being hospitalized and deaths. And not trusting that their will not be severe side effects later on is why a lot of people are refusing the vaccine.  They are weighing their risk and deciding not to get it.  That's their right. I'm sure many think those being vaccinated are insane.  I don't, I think they made a choice that felt right for them. As it should be.


----------



## Knight

Brookswood said:


> Mr. Leno is an entertainer.   IOW, he is not smarter than any of us. And if wants to jaywalk he probably can afford better lawyers than I can.


Are you serious? Jay walking was a segment of the Jay Leno show that conducted interviews of everyday people that reflected on the intelligence  or lack of by asking questions about current events &  basic knowledge.  

At the time I originally thought the responses were hilarious but soon realized how sad &  lacking so many were about the world around them.


----------



## Don M.

It would have been "nice" if this virus wasn't spreading so quickly, and the FDA/CDC had 4 or 5 years of "studying" this illness and the vaccines.  However, had these vaccines not been available until 2025, the death toll would probably already be in the millions.  

Many of the nations hospitals are already so overcrowded with Covid patients that there are little or no resources available for anyone rushing to the hospital with a stroke, heart attack, or severe auto accident.  

Sure, no one knows what, if any, kind of long term effects this virus, or the vaccines, will have....but it only makes sense for people to accept the recommendations of those who are studying this disease, and follow the mask, distancing, and vaccination protocols.


----------



## Tom 86

"Well, I do KNOW one thing, because I got vaccinated, as a young child, I do not have polio, never had polio, and never will have polio. The so called side effect of the polio vaccine was playing in the rain and NOT getting polio.

I can breathe without an iron lung. I did not grow up in a hospital. As I child I did not need a wheelchair and was not made to stay home from school. I am grateful for the vaccines, the doctors, and the medical world."

*Remember it took 10 years to get the polio vaccine.  *This Conav-19 was RUSHED too fast & they have no idea the side effects that will come from this so-called Conav-19 vaccine.


----------



## Irwin

Mediocre quarterback for the Chicago Bears, Jay Cutler lost an UberEats commercial gig due to his anti-mask views. He never did have very good judgement on the field and it looks like that also applies to his behavior on Twitter.


----------



## MrPants

There's some funny You Tube Vids of Jay interviewing people with basic knowledge questions. 
The level of ignorance is shocking in some cases.


----------



## AnnieA

Becky1951 said:


> For medical reason's I'm not vaccinated. I do wear a mask. I do believe its a personal choice to be vaccinated.
> 
> "Seems to me if we are going to get control of this virus we need more cooperation"
> 
> Seems to me it was nonsense for the CDC to assume that vaccinated people could stop wearing masks 2 weeks after second shot.  The studies on the trial of the vaccines didn't include enough time to make certain that vaccinated persons could have breakthrough cases that spread the virus.
> 
> Also they assumed that the vaccines probably would protect future variant's obviously since they had dropped the wear a mask recommendation.  Too much assuming by the CDC and the "experts".



Same for me.  Not vaccinated on the advice of my doctor due to autoimmune disorders, but do wear a mask at all times in public indoors and don't see an end in sight to mask wearing until I've caught and hopefully recovered with antibodies.   Know I will eventually catch it from family (vaccinated or not ...both are spreading it), but also do know my internist is having excellent success with his treatment regimen.  I also qualify for monoclonal antibody treatment due to several diagnosis.


----------



## win231

Knight said:


> Are you serious? Jay walking was a segment of the Jay Leno show that conducted interviews of everyday people that reflected on the intelligence  or lack of by asking questions about current events &  basic knowledge.
> 
> At the time I originally thought the responses were hilarious but soon realized how sad &  lacking so many were about the world around them.


Aw, c'mon.  It's comedy.  Many of the participants in those skits were pre-interviewed, coached & rehearsed.  I participated.
If you watched Leno's show, you might also recall another skit called _"Iron Jay"_ where audience members would ask Jay fitness questions.  Jay would sit in front of a special camera with a lens that magnified his chin & shrunk the rest of his face.  Funny, but also rehearsed.


----------



## Aneeda72

John cycling said:


> How exactly are you going to do that when you're dead?
> When you play with fire you get burned.
> When you put well known poisons in your body you're going to suffer the consequences.


 if I have side effects after I am dead that will be amazing especially since I am going to be cremated.  However, I know if I get COVID-19, due to my many medical issues, I will die for sure.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> No they cannot at this time tell anyone what the future effects will be. No one can until a few years from now.
> 
> Most seniors don't care because their time is limited. But everyone should care about the younger generations.


Well, if everyone cared about the younger generations

*They would wear masks!!!  *


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, if everyone cared about the younger generations
> 
> *They would were masks!!!  *


I agree about the masks.


----------



## John cycling

If people really cared about children and other people they would NOT be trying to get them to be deprived of oxygen and and prevented from eliminating carbon dioxide and other waste products from their lungs.  That's absurd, and shows the backward double think that the mask and poison proponents have to convince themselves to believe.


----------



## oldiebutgoody

John cycling said:


> The #1 reason for me is doing my own research and having the intelligence to not do unhealthy and life destroying things.
> Wearing a mask significantly reduces the oxygen supply to the body and blocks the elimination of waste products from the lungs.




I have been wearing a mask for two years, now.  Never in my life have I ever been freer of seasonal allergies.  Now I can walk the streets or parks and breathe without the horrible allergy discomforts. How I wish I had learned to do this years ago.   I shall do the same for the rest of my life.


----------



## Irwin

oldiebutgoody said:


> I have been wearing a mask for two years, now.  Never in my life have I ever been freer of seasonal allergies.  Now I can walk the streets or parks and breathe without the horrible allergy discomforts. How I wish I had learned to do this years ago.   I shall do the same for the rest of my life.


I'm having sinus problems from all the smoke in the air.


----------



## oldiebutgoody

Irwin said:


> I'm having sinus problems from all the smoke in the air.




Thank you for bringing up that point.  Several people I know say the same thing.  By contrast, I have not even been aware of the smoke because it cannot penetrate my three layer mask.  Thus, I am perfectly comfortable while they are not. 

Wearing a mask is the smart thing to do.


----------



## Knight

John cycling said:


> If people really cared about children and other people they would NOT be trying to get them to be deprived of oxygen and and prevented from eliminating carbon dioxide and other waste products from their lungs.  That's absurd, and shows the backward double think that the mask and poison proponents have to convince themselves to believe.


You do realize this is a senior site with most retired & not needing to wear a mask 8 hours a day or more. For my wife & me shopping takes maybe 20 minutes tops that is pretty much the longest in time for interaction in a public place. 

As for those required to wear a mask do you have any proof that healthy individuals are suffering any side affects from long hours of use? KEY is "healthy individuals". I'd expect those with lung issues to seek an exemption. Or the very least try to minimize social interaction.  

The reason for slacking off on mask use was  cases of covid-19 were declining. Since fear of vaccinations & slacking off on mask wearing cases of both covid-19 & the new strain have risen substantially. 

Bottom line. People will do what they feel works best for themselves.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> if I have side effects after I am dead that will be amazing especially since I am going to be cremated.  However, I know if I get COVID-19, due to my many medical issues, I will die for sure.


Well, if you're cremated, a high fever might be a side effect.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

I’m sure that I don’t know what motivates people to do many of the things that they do and to so vehemently refuse to do other things that they won’t do. But I guarantee that vaccinated or not, wear a mask from here to eternity, every last one of us will die from something, be it old age or stubbornness. I doubt that anyone’s mind is changed by making the same arguments over and over. But like it or not, everything and everyone that’s alive dies. It’s the other half of the equation. If Covid doesn’t kill you, something else will. Covid is just a newer cause of death. It’s true that it doesn’t kill everyone it infects but I’d feel a little sad if I was the one you caught it from and you died because of my stubbornness or if you died as a result of getting a vaccine if I advised you to do so. All the bickering back and forth could be put to much better use by using the time and space here to post more funny pictures, interesting music videos or even just kind thoughts. A little kindness goes a long way. Is it really so much fun to point fingers at each other? I don’t know about anyone else but for the past few years, my so called “Golden Years” seem a little tarnished. All this animosity between every side and faction is not what I had pictured my great reward would be. Can’t we pull together, even just a little or shall we keep picking each other apart?


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> I’m sure that I don’t know what motivates people to do many of the things that they do and to so vehemently refuse to do other things that they won’t do. But I guarantee that vaccinated or not, wear a mask from here to eternity, every last one of us will die from something, be it old age or stubbornness. I doubt that anyone’s mind is changed by making the same arguments over and over. But like it or not, everything and everyone that’s alive dies. It’s the other half of the equation. If Covid doesn’t kill you, something else will. Covid is just a newer cause of death. It’s true that it doesn’t kill everyone it infects but I’d feel a little sad if I was the one you caught it from and you died because of my stubbornness or if you died as a result of getting a vaccine if I advised you to do so. All the bickering back and forth could be put to much better use by using the time and space here to post more funny pictures, interesting music videos or even just kind thoughts. A little kindness goes a long way. Is it really so much fun to point fingers at each other? I don’t know about anyone else but for the past few years, my so called “Golden Years” seem a little tarnished. All this animosity between every side and faction is not what I had pictured my great reward would be. Can’t we pull together, even just a little or shall we keep picking each other apart?


You may be missing an important point - which is the animosity starts out one sided.  I have yet to see any animosity towards anyone who's been vaccinated UNTIL they start putting down those who choose not to get vaccinated to feel superior & holier than thou.  That's when the expected retaliation makes it _appear _like we're picking each other apart, when it's really the vaccinated picking the non vaccinated apart.  Respect is a two-way street.


----------



## Jennina

win231 said:


> No comments from the controllers who want everyone to make the same choice they made????
> I'm shocked!


. 
I think I can explain. 

1. He based his decision on facts and logic.

He felt dizzy twice wearing a mask because it disrupted his breathing pattern.  Therefore, he stopped wearing masks. 

2.. He followed science 
He got vaccinated. 

3 He listens to experts 
He follows his doctor's advice.

So, yeah, no violent reactions here.  All quiet in covid angstville.

@Tom 86  I hope you continue to get better.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You may be missing an important point - which is the animosity starts out one sided.  I have yet to see any animosity towards anyone who's been vaccinated UNTIL they start putting down those who choose not to get vaccinated to feel superior & holier than thou.  That's when the expected retaliation makes it _appear _like we're picking each other apart, when it's really the vaccinated picking the non vaccinated apart.  Respect is a two-way street.


Vaxxer’s are here.   The “truth” is _probably_ here, somewhere in between.                  Anti-vaxxers are here.

Both pro and con vaccine sides say that they are right, the opposing opinions are wrong.
My point is that arguing like schoolchildren will most definitely not do anything to prevent further spreading of the disease. My point too is that some people argue that the vaccine is poison and I’ve also read that some people believe the virus is just a hoax. It wasn’t people in favor of vaccinations that spread thoughts like those. With the internet at their fingertips, many people feel that they’re experts on any number of things. Both sides do a lot of finger pointing and tongue wagging, or so it appears to ME. Your results may vary but you don’t know what my eyes see and none of us seem to have proven anything even with all the bickering. Isn’t there something else we could all hate each other about instead, even if only for a day or two? Talk about Covid here, there and everywhere seems to have changed nothing. You don’t know what to do about it, neither do I. But arguing, no matter who starts it, isn’t helping anything or anyone. I wish there was a vaccine for unpleasantness. People are just unpleasant it seems and on both sides of everything. We might as well get along because we won’t be here for long and all of us are stuck on the same planet we were born on and will die on. Respect is indeed a two way street. It just seems that most streets are one way in this neighborhood and on both sides of the tracks.


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## Becky1951

Having a discussion is not arguing until someone calls others stupid, ignorant, uneducated, un patriotic, insane etc. And those names have been slung by the pro vaccine side against those who are NOT anti-vax, but rather not convinced the Covid vaccines are safe long term.

Considering information, ALL available information is important. If members are tired of the Covid thread, there is a simple solution, scroll on, don't read any of it.  Problem solved.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> Having a discussion is not arguing until someone calls others stupid, ignorant, uneducated, un patriotic, insane etc. And those names have been slung by the pro vaccine side against those who are NOT anti-vax, but rather not convinced the Covid vaccines are safe long term.
> 
> Considering information, ALL available information is important. If members are tired of the Covid thread, there is a simple solution, scroll on, don't read any of it.  Problem solved.



But I ask, from where is one to obtain this all important information without risking exposure to negative comments from BOTH sides of the issue as well as those who choose to “not choose” because they just aren’t sure of the long term safety of vaccines? If I want to be informed and to avail myself of available information, ALL available information, then a forum such as this would seem to be the place to seek it. I was merely questioning what are the long term effects of such animosity? Do you have access to some special source of information to share with someone as uninformed as I must seem to be? I only ask because you _seem_ to have an answer about pretty much everything. You seem to know much that I do not. We may not agree but that doesn’t automatically make you right. I can respect the opinions of others but I need not accept them. I feel Voltaire said it well, “Cherish those who *seek* the truth but beware of those who *find* it!” I’m a seeker, are you a seeker too or is it too soon to say?


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> Right now yes, but numbers are rising of the vaccinated being hospitalized and deaths


Would you mind sharing your source for this claim. Trying to do my own research. Thanks.


----------



## Sunny

I would like to know your source also, Becky.

From everything I've read and heard, nearly all the deaths are among the unvaccinated. Of course, vaccinated people can die of other things, they just rarely if ever die of Covid.


----------



## Knight

Absolutely we are all going to die.  Pro mask & vaccination or anti mask & vaccination  or a mix is a choice. True is how & when not known even with the virus.  So as a choice which we all have we can determine  what works best for ourselves.

With this post there are 102 posts on this topic. So if nothing else reading, posting  opinions that won't change minds is a good exercise for the brain. AND were all alive to post.


----------



## John cycling

Chris P Bacon said:


> But I ask, from where is one to obtain this all important information



From your brain!  From your brain!  You're correct that people keep arguing with each other because they're confused and don't know which lies are true and which lies are the lies.  The answer is that all of it is total BS, and one of their objectives is to keep changing the stories in order to keep the people confused.  For me, I've seen through the whole thing from the start and have never believed any of it.

The best thing to do is to ignore absolutely everything that they say in the media, and just go on with your business as you always would do as if they never existed.  Live your own life, stop being so confused, and stop allowing people you don't even know who live in some ivory castles to control you.   Live your own life how you wish, and *stop harassing other people* so they can life their lives as well.

There's a direct relationship between stress and diseases.  The more they can stress you, the more that you worry, the more you'll get sick.  So calm down.  Don't be concerned with any of the BS in the least.  Ignore them completely, live your own life and you'll be much better off.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

John cycling said:


> *From your brain!  From your brain! * You're correct that people keep arguing with each other because they're confused and don't know which lies are true and which lies are the lies.  The answer is that all of it is total BS, and one of their objectives is to keep changing the stories in order to keep the people confused.  For me, I've seen through the whole thing from the start and have never believed any of it.
> 
> The best thing to do is to ignore absolutely everything that they say in the media, and just go on with your business as you always would do as if they never existed.  Live your own life, stop being so confused, and stop allowing people you don't even know who live in some ivory castles to control you.   Live your own life how you wish, and stop harassing other people so they can life their lives as well.
> 
> There's a direct relationship between stress and diseases.  The more they can stress you, the more that you worry, the more you'll get sick.  So calm down.  Don't be concerned with any of the BS in the least.  Ignore them completely, live your own life and you'll be much better off.


From _*my*_ brain? I think that I know what you mean but after researching some of your "truth", it seems a bit dubious to me. Are you aware that just possibly you might be posting questionable articles as truths? Maybe to you and others, the info obtained from Bitchute.com is infallible but for me, not so much, especially when I check the credentials of the site and the credentials of some of the "experts" that you reference. Then too you claim things like "well known poisons" is quite likely to be devastating to one's quality of life and life span. Yes, I guess that cyanide or ricin, the two best known poisons to me, might make for a bad day but you offer no source for this information. Did it come "From you brain?" because it sure didn't come from mine and just searching your words didn't bring up anything to substantiate your claim. To me, you seem like the fellow who would yell "FIRE!" in a crowded and darkened theater. I don't mean to offend you but I just can't believe that you think it's a good thing to try scaring people who either won't or don't know how to check your information for themselves and just accept it at face value. But you sir are spreading non-truths in abundance as well it seems. If you can offer proof from some reputable source besides Bitchute, I'd be most interested to view it. But on my own I could find nothing positive about ANY of your words.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> Having a discussion is not arguing until someone calls others stupid, ignorant, uneducated, un patriotic, insane etc. And those names have been slung by the pro vaccine side against those who are NOT anti-vax, but rather not convinced the Covid vaccines are safe long term.
> 
> Considering information, ALL available information is important. If members are tired of the Covid thread, there is a simple solution, scroll on, don't read any of it.  Problem solved.


^^^^ Bingo!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

*Credibility of bitchute.com* Google search It seems like bitchute might be a reincarnation of the Weekly World News. You know, the ones who made Bat Boy famous. I wonder how he's faring with this Covid mess? Looks like he's  fine!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> ^^^^ Bingo!


I read every post in THIS thread and I couldn't find that anyone had been called or had called someone else any of those things. Which post was that in? Also, I did see a mention made of "fools having their heads in the sand" or words to that effect. If you're not a fool or if your head isn't in the sand then why such offense? If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it around. Touché!


----------



## Chris P Bacon




----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> But I ask, from where is one to obtain this all important information without risking exposure to negative comments from BOTH sides of the issue as well as those who choose to “not choose” because they just aren’t sure of the long term safety of vaccines? If I want to be informed and to avail myself of available information, ALL available information, then a forum such as this would seem to be the place to seek it. I was merely questioning what are the long term effects of such animosity? Do you have access to some special source of information to share with someone as uninformed as I must seem to be? I only ask because you _seem_ to have an answer about pretty much everything. You seem to know much that I do not. We may not agree but that doesn’t automatically make you right. I can respect the opinions of others but I need not accept them. I feel Voltaire said it well, “Cherish those who *seek* the truth but beware of those who *find* it!” I’m a seeker, are you a seeker too or is it too soon to say?


"Do you have access to some special source of information"

No more then anyone else.

Covid is a topic that should be discussed, information good or bad should be posted by any person wishing to do so.   

"you _seem_ to have an answer about pretty much everything"  

I wish I did.  Is giving my opinion as others do wrong?  

"We may not agree but that doesn’t automatically make you right"

Nor does it make you automatically right. 

"ALL available information, then a forum such as this would seem to be the place to seek it"

          I find this very funny, apparently its ok to post articles in this forum about non vaxers and or all the headline news about how bad Covid is and how many have been vaccinated and where the "hot spots" are etc, but if someone posts a negative article such as breakthrough cases and deaths or deaths due to the vaccines its not ok.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> I read every post in THIS thread and I couldn't find that anyone had been called or had called someone else any of those things. Which post was that in? Also, I did see a mention made of "fools having their heads in the sand" or words to that effect. If you're not a fool or if your head isn't in the sand then why such offense? If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it around. Touché!


Other threads.


----------



## Becky1951

Jennina said:


> Would you mind sharing your source for this claim. Trying to do my own research. Thanks.


My claim for the numbers are rising? Well if you start with a few and then every few days more are added then its rising numbers. 

I already posted these articles in another Covid thread on Friday. The last article here is from today. These are just so far. 

79 fully vaccinated died.

https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...id-cases-vaccinated-people-is-incredibly-low/

31 fully vaccinated have died

https://fox17-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ent-says-breakthrough-case-virus-coronavirus-

CDC says roughly 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid breakthrough infections after vaccinationOr died? Can't they tell the difference?

https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

Nearly 400 people have been hospitalized and 100 have now died in Massachusetts

https://www-nbcboston-com.cdn.amppr...-cases-in-massachusetts-what-we-know/2457920/

I had already posted these in the thread "Vaccinated Cruise Ship Passengers Test Positive For Covid" on friday.  #12
Health officials say 10 fully vaccinated Oregonians died of COVID-19 in July, correcting previously reported data

https://www-oregonlive-com.cdn.ampp...july-correcting-previously-reported-data.htm

159 Dead, 593 Hospitalized in Illinois Breakthrough COVID Cases

https://www-nbcchicago-com.cdn.ampp...in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/

_Minnesota_ has seen at least 5,599 _breakthrough_ cases of _COVID_-19 and at least 57 _deaths_ among fully vaccinated people

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...s-5-600-breakthrough-covid-19-cases-57-deaths


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> I would like to know your source also, Becky.
> 
> From everything I've read and heard, nearly all the deaths are among the unvaccinated. Of course, vaccinated people can die of other things, they just rarely if ever die of Covid.


My claim for the numbers are rising? Well if you start with a few and then every few days more are added then its rising numbers.

I already posted these articles in another Covid thread on Friday. The last article here is from today. These are just so far.

79 fully vaccinated died.

https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...id-cases-vaccinated-people-is-incredibly-low/

31 fully vaccinated have died

https://fox17-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ent-says-breakthrough-case-virus-coronavirus-

CDC says roughly 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid breakthrough infections after vaccinationOr died? Can't they tell the difference?

https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

Nearly 400 people have been hospitalized and 100 have now died in Massachusetts

https://www-nbcboston-com.cdn.amppr...-cases-in-massachusetts-what-we-know/2457920/

I had already posted these in the thread "Vaccinated Cruise Ship Passengers Test Positive For Covid" on friday. #12
Health officials say 10 fully vaccinated Oregonians died of COVID-19 in July, correcting previously reported data

https://www-oregonlive-com.cdn.ampp...july-correcting-previously-reported-data.htm

159 Dead, 593 Hospitalized in Illinois Breakthrough COVID Cases

https://www-nbcchicago-com.cdn.ampp...in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/

_Minnesota_ has seen at least 5,599 _breakthrough_ cases of _COVID_-19 and at least 57 _deaths_ among fully vaccinated people

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...s-5-600-breakthrough-covid-19-cases-57-deaths


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> "Do you have access to some special source of information"
> 
> No more then anyone else.
> 
> Covid is a topic that should be discussed, information good or bad should be posted by any person wishing to do so.
> 
> "you _seem_ to have an answer about pretty much everything"
> 
> I wish I did.  Is giving my opinion as others do wrong?
> 
> "We may not agree but that doesn’t automatically make you right"
> 
> Nor does it make you automatically right.
> 
> "ALL available information, then a forum such as this would seem to be the place to seek it"
> 
> I find this very funny, apparently its ok to post articles in this forum about non vaxers and or all the headline news about how bad Covid is and how many have been vaccinated and where the "hot spots" are etc, but if someone posts a negative article such as breakthrough cases and deaths or deaths due to the vaccines its not ok.


I can't force you to agree. You have the right to be wrong.


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> I read every post in THIS thread and I couldn't find that anyone had been called or had called someone else any of those things. Which post was that in? Also, I did see a mention made of "fools having their heads in the sand" or words to that effect. If you're not a fool or if your head isn't in the sand then why such offense? If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it around. Touché!


Some posts were removed and treads locked.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> Other threads.


Which other threads? Seniorforums has more threads than a sewing machine store


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> Some posts were removed and treads locked.


Okay, I'll have a look at the number sequence


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> I can't force you to agree. You have the right to be wrong.


And so do you. However I have never tried to force anyone!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> "Do you have access to some special source of information"
> 
> No more then anyone else.
> 
> Covid is a topic that should be discussed, *information good or bad* should be posted by any person wishing to do so.


So unverifiable claims should be posted, is that your position?


Becky1951 said:


> "you _seem_ to have an answer about pretty much everything"
> 
> I wish I did.  Is giving my opinion as others do wrong?


Not at all, just as long as you state it as opinion and not fact.


Becky1951 said:


> "We may not agree but that doesn’t automatically make you right"





Becky1951 said:


> Nor does it make you automatically right.


Not at all but I don't post my opinions about Covid and health, claiming them to be merely opinions and NOT facts.


Becky1951 said:


> "ALL available information, then a forum such as this would seem to be the place to seek it"
> 
> I find this very funny, apparently its ok to post articles in this forum about non vaxers and or all the headline news about how bad Covid is and how many have been vaccinated and where the "hot spots" are etc, but if someone posts a negative article such as breakthrough cases and deaths or deaths due to the vaccines its not ok.


If some words offend you, that's unfortunate but I find it offensive that some would try to mislead others to stress and panic. If you feel that describes you, well, you decided that and no one else. But I do get the feeling that you're more con than pro, vaxwise. But I don't know that for a FACT. That's merely my opinion based on your comments.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> And so do you. However I have never tried to force anyone!


Ah, but I'm not wrong, _in my facts_. And you don't have to force someone to have them panic or become stressed. Just spreading unverifiable or false information usually works pretty well, I'd say, as an opinion, not a fact.


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> So unverifiable claims should be posted, is that your position?
> 
> Not at all, just as long as you state it as opinion and not fact.
> 
> 
> Not at all but I don't post my opinions about Covid and health, claiming them to be merely opinions and NOT facts.
> 
> If some words offend you, that's unfortunate but I find it offensive that some would try to mislead others to stress and panic. If you feel that describes you, well, you decided that and no one else. But I do get the feeling that you're more con than pro, vaxwise. But I don't know that for a FACT. That's merely my opinion based on your comments.


I post news articles, I cannot nor can you 100% verify its claim. And yes in some reply comments I have posted facts. Such as when it was claimed that being vaccinated meant you if you got Covid you wouldn't die from it.  Fact, there are Covid breakthrough deaths.

I have had every vaccine available during my 70 years except the Covid vaccine, which my Dr advised against my getting it. 

I have not "mislead" anyone. 

 "I find it offensive that some would try to mislead others to stress and panic."

Sorry your so easily offended. So posting an opposing or negative article is causing stress and panic??

So there should be censorship to protect the delicate?

If some articles offend you, scroll on. That's just my opinion.


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> Ah, but I'm not wrong, _in my facts_. And you don't have to force someone to have them panic or become stressed. Just spreading unverifiable or false information usually works pretty well, I'd say, as an opinion, not a fact.


"Ah, but I'm not wrong, _in my facts"

     your so humorous!  _

I have never claimed articles I posted were facts unless of course there was a comment within them that said it was CDC stated fact.  Its up to the reader to decide which information is fact or not.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> "Ah, but I'm not wrong, _in my facts"
> 
> your so humorous!  _
> 
> I have never claimed articles I posted were facts unless of course there was a comment within them that said it was CDC stated fact.  Its up to the reader to decide which information is fact or not.


Are you familiar with the concept of inducing panic? Have you ever heard that term before? Sure, you could yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim later that it was just your "opinion", it's up to the people who trampled each other trying to get out alive due to PANIC to decide if there actually was a fire or not. As for me, I don't care now, after all I've seen of you, if you stated that the grass is green and the sky is blue, I'd be SURE to check because you seem to think on some level that I'm not familiar with. The horse is dead, Becky 1951. The horse died of Covid and panic.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> I post news articles, I cannot nor can you 100% verify its claim. And yes in some reply comments I have posted facts. Such as when it was claimed that being vaccinated meant you if you got Covid you wouldn't die from it.  Fact, there are Covid breakthrough deaths.
> 
> I have had every vaccine available during my 70 years except the Covid vaccine, which my Dr advised against my getting it.
> 
> I have not "mislead" anyone.
> 
> "I find it offensive that some would try to mislead others to stress and panic."
> 
> Sorry your so easily offended. So posting an opposing or negative article is causing stress and panic??
> 
> So there should be censorship to protect the delicate?
> 
> If some articles offend you, scroll on. That's just my opinion.


Becky 1951, to me, just sharing my opinion here but you seem so full of yourself that I don't think that there's room for anything else inside you. Do you have medications that maybe you've missed dosages of recently? I don't pray but if I did, I'd pray for you. I just may make an exception and do so anyway but then again, maybe not. And maybe I can't verify my facts to YOUR satisfaction to 100% but I guarantee that I can document more of what I say that what I can when I look up what you say. And that's a FACT! 

And did your doctor advise you to not get vaccinated or did you decide to forego it because you don't know how it might affect you in the future? Your stance confuses me. There need not be censorship to protect the delicate but some editing to protect the gullible might be a good idea. If you feel offense at things I say too, scroll on. No need to nitpick every word I say just because you can't PROVE me wrong.


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> Are you familiar with the concept of inducing panic? Have you ever heard that term before? Sure, you could yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim later that it was just your "opinion", it's up to the people who trampled each other trying to get out alive due to PANIC to decide if there actually was a fire or not. As for me, I don't care now, after all I've seen of you, if you stated that the grass is green and the sky is blue, I'd be SURE to check because you seem to think on some level that I'm not familiar with. The horse is dead, Becky 1951. The horse died of Covid and panic.


Interesting.  Now I'm the source of panic.   

"The horse died of Covid and panic." 

Just because I didn't bend when you tried to break me.  

Sorry about your horse.


----------



## Becky1951

Chris P Bacon said:


> Becky 1951, to me, just sharing my opinion here but you seem so full of yourself that I don't think that there's room for anything else inside you. Do you have medications that maybe you've Oh sorrt more of what I say that what I can when I look up what you say. And that's a FACT!
> 
> And did your doctor advise you to not get vaccinated or did you decide to forego it because you don't know how it might affect you in the future? Your stance confuses me. There need not be censorship to protect the delicate but some editing to protect the gullible might be a good idea. If you feel offense at things I say too, scroll on. No need to nitpick every word I say just because you can't PROVE me wrong.


Oh sorry. I didn't realize it was ok for you to nit pic my every word but not for me to do it.  

Personally MY opinion only here is that you are hoping to this thread lock.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> Interesting.  Now I'm the source of panic.
> 
> "The horse died of Covid and panic."
> 
> Just because I didn't bend when you tried to break me.
> 
> Sorry about your horse.


Oh no, Becky 1951, I had no illusion that you were breakable. The horse wasn't fact. It was rhetorical. I call Straw Man here.


----------



## Becky1951

I am done with Chris. I will not further be baited. Have a great day everyone.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> Oh sorry. I didn't realize it was ok for you to nit pic my every word but not for me to do it.
> 
> Personally MY opinion only here is that you are hoping to this thread lock.


Opinions are like butts. Everybody has one and it's not polite, in my opinion, to rub yours in everyone's face. Not you personally, maybe but people in general, maybe. You figure it out.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> I am done with Chris. I will not further be baited. Have a great day everyone.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Becky1951 said:


> I am done with Chris. I will not further be baited. Have a great day everyone.


I'm just an apprentice baiter, not a master yet, I guess. IMHO.


----------



## Brookswood

Ladybj said:


> Hasn't convinced me yet... next will be Omega virus.


You are welcome to the Omega virus or any other one you wish to tangle with.   Just don't pass it on to me and mine.  IOW, keep it to yourself.


----------



## Brookswood

win231 said:


> Every drug & product you mentioned (including tobacco) was endorsed & advertised by *doctors *_who said what they were paid to say; just as with the Covid vaccine. _ And just as they do now with useless weight-loss and "Look & feel younger" supplements.
> You'll find a doctor praising the effectiveness & safety of a product wherever the money is.


----------



## Brookswood

This reply intentionally left blank.


----------



## Brookswood

Knight said:


> Are you serious? Jay walking was a segment of the Jay Leno show that conducted interviews of everyday people that reflected on the intelligence  or lack of by asking questions about current events &  basic knowledge.
> 
> At the time I originally thought the responses were hilarious but soon realized how sad &  lacking so many were about the world around them.


Mr. Leno is a comedian and entertainer. I am sure that section of his show was well edited to show only the most outrageous idiots.      It was entertaining.  That's all it is - entertainment. My 2¢.


----------



## ohioboy

Chris P Bacon said:


> Are you familiar with the concept of inducing panic? Have you ever heard that term before?


It's not a concept, it's a LAW in Ohio.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

ohioboy said:


> It's not a concept, it's a LAW in Ohio.


Yes, I know that but a friend of mine, who isn't from Ohio takes most things very literally and I didn't feel that they'd accept any law from Ohio or any state not their own, as being a valid one. But I do appreciate you taking the time to set me straight. You're kind to keep an eye on a fellow Buckeye! Grazie!


----------



## ohioboy

Chris P Bacon said:


> Yes, I know that but a friend of mine, who isn't from Ohio takes most things very literally and I didn't feel that they'd accept any law from Ohio or any state not their own, as being a valid one. But I doo appreciate you taking the time to set me straight. You're kind to keep an eye on a fellow Buckeye! Grazie!


Most states have similar codifications, inducing panic/disorderly conduct. Tell him to check his home state laws.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

ohioboy said:


> Most states have similar codifications, inducing panic/disorderly conduct. Tell him to check his home state laws.


Him or her, their gender isn't important and I have no clue what pronouns they prefer. But I'm pretty certain that they'll see this. thanks again! I'm just trying tyo keep things vague at this point lest I ruffle or casue a kerfluffle of their feathers. I miss them so!


----------



## Chris P Bacon




----------



## jerry old

Do not wear mask, okay  
The governor or Texas has mandated that the citizens do not have to wear masks.
Many school districts are ignoring his mandate.

Today, the governor tested positive for Covid19, even though he has received the vaccine**

Also, Texas is second in the nation with Covid 19 cases


----------



## win231

Brookswood said:


> This reply intentionally left blank.


I don't blame you.


----------



## Brookswood

Blank reply


----------



## Brookswood

win231 said:


> I don't blame you.


Good.


----------



## win231

Don M. said:


> Older people, and especially those with other health issues are at increased risk from this virus....AND probably cannot tolerate the vaccines, or wearing of masks.  Exceptions to the rules and recommendations Should be made for them.
> 
> The younger and healthier people have little, or no, reasons for refusing to accept vaccination and wearing  masks, etc., IMO.  Until the vast majority do so, this pandemic will continue to be a major problem.


Yes, they coulda cured Covid in one day if everyone would just do the right thing, & not been so selfish, dammit!


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> Oh sorry. I didn't realize it was ok for you to nit pic my every word but not for me to do it.
> 
> Personally MY opinion only here is that you are hoping to this thread lock.


So I don’t understand that “lock this thread” comment. I have been accused of that before, as well, and I consider it to be the desperate ploy of some one who is feeling Insecure about the position they have taken.  But that’s is my OPINION.  . Someone mentions locking a thread, and, like flies on donuts, the thread gets locked.  Cause who wants flies on donuts?  

I do think things are getting a bit heated between certain members over a subject that really does not matter.  There are plenty of Covid threads, too many.  It will matter little if this thread is locked or kept open.  Someone will open another one.


----------



## Paco Dennis

The likelihood of of having bad results increase dramatically between making an informed decision and an uninformed one.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Aneeda72 said:


> So I don’t understand that “lock this thread” comment. I have been accused of that before, as well, and I consider it to be the desperate ploy of some one who is feeling Insecure about the position they have taken.  But that’s is my OPINION.  . Someone mentions locking a thread, and, like flies on donuts, the thread gets locked. Cause who wants flies on donuts?
> 
> I do think things are getting a bit heated between certain members over a subject that really does not matter.  There are plenty of Covid threads, too many.  It will matter little if this thread is locked or kept open.  Someone will open another one.


I have no clue how that works either but I agree, things went further than they should have. please forgive my bad judgement in expecting any semblance of a reasonable conclusion. I meant no harm but to me, a discussion means discussing ideas that are true or that can be verified and not just mudslinging or slandering with opinions and untruths. People read that the sky is falling, we' re doomed or similar things and they believe it. They in turn tell their friends and the rumors spread but not the truth. I apologize for any discomfort I may have caused you. Thanks for sharing your opinion. It's nice to be important but, speaking just for myself here now, it's more important to be NICE.


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> My claim for the numbers are rising? Well if you start with a few and then every few days more are added then its rising numbers.
> 
> I already posted these articles in another Covid thread on Friday. The last article here is from today. These are just so far.
> 
> 79 fully vaccinated died.
> 
> https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...id-cases-vaccinated-people-is-incredibly-low/
> 
> 31 fully vaccinated have died
> 
> https://fox17-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ent-says-breakthrough-case-virus-coronavirus-
> 
> CDC says roughly 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid breakthrough infections after vaccinationOr died? Can't they tell the difference?
> 
> https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s
> 
> Nearly 400 people have been hospitalized and 100 have now died in Massachusetts
> 
> https://www-nbcboston-com.cdn.amppr...-cases-in-massachusetts-what-we-know/2457920/
> 
> I had already posted these in the thread "Vaccinated Cruise Ship Passengers Test Positive For Covid" on friday.  #12
> Health officials say 10 fully vaccinated Oregonians died of COVID-19 in July, correcting previously reported data
> 
> https://www-oregonlive-com.cdn.ampp...july-correcting-previously-reported-data.htm
> 
> 159 Dead, 593 Hospitalized in Illinois Breakthrough COVID Cases
> 
> https://www-nbcchicago-com.cdn.ampp...in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/
> 
> _Minnesota_ has seen at least 5,599 _breakthrough_ cases of _COVID_-19 and at least 57 _deaths_ among fully vaccinated people
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...s-5-600-breakthrough-covid-19-cases-57-deaths


Thank you for sharing your sources. I think its good that you read both left and right leaning media outlets

I have skimmed through your back and forth with @Chris P Bacon 

To be honest, like Chris, I also panicked when I read your claim that deaths of vaccinated people are rising that's why I asked for your sources.  After reading the full article, I calmed down. 

FOX NEWS
The fox news (right leaning) article's story angle focused on the number of deaths among the vaccinated.  

Headline: 31 FULLY UNVACCINATED PEOPLE HAVE DIED ...

But buried in the article (6th paragraph) is the more relevant news because it helps us decide whether or not to get vaccinated: 

IN TENNESSEE, 96% OF ALL NEW CASES AND 96.9% OF ALL COVID DEATHS WERE UNVACCINATED. 


BOSTON GLOBE 
The Boston Globe (left leaning) provided a more relevant story angle. 

This is their lead paragraph. 

"The Department of Public Health says 0.1 percent of people in Massachusetts who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have contracted COVID-19, a finding that highlights how important it is for people to get their shot"

If you read further down, it says   THE 79 PEOPLE WHO DIED REPRESENT .0019% OF THE VACCINATED PEOPLE. 

The media will skew their stories based on their political leanings. And sadly, people.tend to get their news from sources that reflect their beliefs.  We have to be smarter than them. Your data are correct. But they became alarming because there was no context.  And the context is, while there are vaccinated people who died, more unvaccinated people died from covid. 

So i guess, what Im saying is --- Be careful. The stories you believe become your reality.


----------



## Becky1951

Jennina said:


> Thank you for sharing your sources. I think its good that you read both left and right leaning media outlets
> 
> I have skimmed through your back and forth with @Chris P Bacon
> 
> To be honest, like Chris, I also panicked when I read your claim that deaths of vaccinated people are rising that's why I asked for your sources.  After reading the full article, I calmed down.
> 
> FOX NEWS
> The fox news (right leaning) article's story angle focused on the number of deaths among the vaccinated.
> 
> Headline: 31 FULLY UNVACCINATED PEOPLE HAVE DIED ...
> 
> But buried in the article (6th paragraph) is the more relevant news because it helps us decide whether or not to get vaccinated:
> 
> IN TENNESSEE, 96% OF ALL NEW CASES AND 96.9% OF ALL COVID DEATHS WERE UNVACCINATED.
> 
> 
> BOSTON GLOBE
> The Boston Globe (left leaning) provided a more relevant story angle.
> 
> This is their lead paragraph.
> 
> "The Department of Public Health says 0.1 percent of people in Massachusetts who have been vaccinated against the coronavirus have contracted COVID-19, a finding that highlights how important it is for people to get their shot"
> 
> If you read further down, it says   THE 79 PEOPLE WHO DIED REPRESENT .0019% OF THE VACCINATED PEOPLE.
> 
> The media will skew their stories based on their political leanings. And sadly, people.tend to get their news from sources that reflect their beliefs.  We have to be smarter than them. Your data are correct. But they became alarming because there was no context.  And the context is, while there are vaccinated people who died, more unvaccinated people died from covid.
> 
> So i guess, what Im saying is --- Be careful. The stories you believe become your reality.


"But they became alarming because there was no context."

That's why I always post the link to any article I post. Its up to the individual to read the article. As you will see if you take the time to look at articles I have posted in other threads, I always copy the entire article, some of the ones I posted here without the entire content is due to my already having posted them in other threads. I would have to had to search those out here back and forth and copy and paste each one. I simply did a google search instead and then copied the link with little information.

Not hiding information, not posting "I heard" and then tell what ever it is and not having a link to back it up as I have seen before.  

Be careful. The stories you disbelieve may become your reality.


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> "But they became alarming because there was no context."
> 
> That's why I always post the link to any article I post. Its up to the individual to read the article. As you will see if you take the time to look at articles I have posted in other threads, I always copy the entire article, some of the ones I posted here without the entire content is due to my already having posted them in other threads. I would have to had to search those out here back and forth and copy and paste each one. I simply did a google search instead and then copied the link with little information.
> 
> Not hiding information, not posting "I heard" and then tell what ever it is and not having a link to back it up as I have seen before.
> 
> Be careful. The stories you disbelieve may become your reality.




1) You misinterpreted what I wrote.

I never accused you of hiding information. I said the article was written in such a way that the more relevant info was buried in the 6th paragraph.  That was not an attack on you.

In fact your willingness to show your sources means youre not deliberately misleading people. 

2) You missed the point of my message. 

You highlighted accurate data (no of deaths among the vaccinated) without context.  And I never interpreted it as malicious because, again.  you shared your sources. 

However, I did think it was either 

a) You read the news haphazardly which I do a lot, just reading the headline and lead.  

b) You read the whole.thing but missed the salient points  and misinterpreted the whole story. That  happens to me too. 

And that's why I made my point on story angles using the 2 articles. 

3) "Be careful. The stories you disbelieve may become your reality."

Of course! That's a corollary. If I believe the first statement, I agree with that too.

But the question is...
Having established the fact that more unvaccinated people die,  between anti and pro, who's reality will get them in trouble?


----------



## Becky1951

"But the question is...
Having established the fact that more unvaccinated people die, between anti and pro, who's reality will get them in trouble?"

_At this time_ the unvaccinated. So do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?  Do we hide all negative vaccine information in hopes they will get vaccinated?  If someone does not want to be vaccinated that is their right to choose. I don't have an answer to stop Covid, although I don't believe it will go away even with everyone being vaccinated. Not with the current vaccines anyway.

Is having doubts about the vaccine cause to label a person anti? I have had every vaccine suggested in my 70 years. I wanted to be vaccinated with the J&J one then they had clotting issues. Then My Dr didn't feel comfortable with my being vaccinate with any of them. So you see, not every one is anti who hasn't been vaccinated.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> "But the question is...
> Having established the fact that more unvaccinated people die, between anti and pro, who's reality will get them in trouble?"
> 
> _At this time_ the unvaccinated. So do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?  Do we hide all negative vaccine information in hopes they will get vaccinated?  If someone does not want to be vaccinated that is their right to choose. I don't have an answer to stop Covid, although I don't believe it will go away even with everyone being vaccinated. Not with the current vaccines anyway.
> 
> Is having doubts about the vaccine cause to label a person anti? I have had every vaccine suggested in my 70 years. I wanted to be vaccinated with the J&J one then they had clotting issues. Then My Dr didn't feel comfortable with my being vaccinate with any of them. So you see, not every one is anti who hasn't been vaccinated.


Labeling someone who doesn't want the vaccine _"Antivaxxer_" is an ignorant person's way of trying to feel superior.
All put-down artists do this; it's the only way they can feel good about themselves.  They actually have low self esteem.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Labeling someone who doesn't want the vaccine _"Antivaxxer_" is an ignorant person's way of trying to feel superior.
> All put-down artists do this; it's the only way they can feel good about themselves.  They actually have low self esteem.


What the heck are you talking about?  The two of you?

Who was it on the forum who recently said it was the people who received the vaccines that labeled the people who did not get the vaccines as ignorant and other names?  . There was also a discussion about only discussing the issues, and not calling people other names for their stance on the issues.  If only my memory was better, I could point you to those discussions.

Yet, there you go.  @win231  “Put down artists, ignorant people“ and @Becky1951 dramatics “do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?”  When will it ever stop?  This silliness.  People are DYING.

Seems it is the not vaccinated who push against the vaccinated, to me.

The vaccinated do not put the not vaccinated at risk.  The not vaccinated put everyone at risk unless they stay at home, avoid other people, and wear the appropriate mask when it is necessary for them to go out on public.  How about the two of you discuss that issue?

The issue of how the not vaccinated can keep other people safe, not themselves safe, other people safe from them.  How about the not vaccinated stop being dramatic about how many vaccinated people have died from the virus since the vaccinated people caught the virus from the non vaccinated-and acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the sickness and deaths?

How about the non vaccinated acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the surge of the virus in various states, the sickness of men, woman, and children; and the many deaths of the same.  How about @win231 and @Becky1951 discuss the drama of this situation instead of the continued never-ending discussion of long term side effects of the vaccine.

*Have you noticed that one of the short term side effects of the virus is death?*


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> What the heck are you talking about?  The two of you?
> 
> Who was it on the forum who recently said it was the people who received the vaccines that labeled the people who did not get the vaccines as ignorant and other names?  . There was also a discussion about only discussing the issues, and not calling people other names for their stance on the issues.  If only my memory was better, I could point you to those discussions.
> 
> Yet, there you go.  @win231  “Put down artists, ignorant people“ and @Becky1951 dramatics “do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?”  When will it ever stop?  This silliness.  People are DYING.
> 
> Seems it is the not vaccinated who push against the vaccinated, to me.
> 
> The vaccinated do not put the not vaccinated at risk.  The not vaccinated put everyone at risk unless they stay at home, avoid other people, and wear the appropriate mask when it is necessary for them to go out on public.  How about the two of you discuss that issue?
> 
> The issue of how the not vaccinated can keep other people safe, not themselves safe, other people safe from them.  How about the not vaccinated stop being dramatic about how many vaccinated people have died from the virus since the vaccinated people caught the virus from the non vaccinated-and acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the sickness and deaths?
> 
> How about the non vaccinated acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the surge of the virus in various states, the sickness of men, woman, and children; and the many deaths of the same.  How about @win231 and @Becky1951 discuss the drama of this situation instead of the continued never-ending discussion of long term side effects of the vaccine.
> 
> *Have you noticed that one of the short term side effects of the virus is death?*


"@Becky1951 dramatics “do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?”"

Not dramatics. There is a push to mandate the vaccines.   If that happens and some refuse, what happens next? 

I didn't call anyone a name so I'm not sure what your talking about.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> "@Becky1951 dramatics “do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?”"
> 
> Not dramatics. There is a push to mandate the vaccines.   If that happens and some refuse, what happens next?
> 
> I didn't call anyone a name so I'm not sure what your talking about.


I was talking about how I feel that you use drama to attempt to put your point across-no one is going to push into anyone’s house to vaccinate anyone.  Suggesting such a thing is using drama and it also tries to push people into a certain level of panic.  The panic thing has already been discussed.


----------



## Becky1951

I will leave you all to the Covid discussions, its apparent my opinion, views on this subject are not welcome here. Apparently I cause stress and panic, and post Covid related articles with information that members dislike. I don't understand why mine and a few others concerns about the vaccines serious side effects such as death and the breakthrough deaths are criticized so harshly by some, as those 2 topics are facts, they are happening. Have a wonderful day.  I know some of you will be jumping for joy now, please remember your seniors and don't dislocate something.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> I will leave you all to the Covid discussions, its apparent my opinion, views on this subject are not welcome here. Apparently I cause stress and panic, and post Covid related articles with information that members dislike. I don't understand why mine and a few others concerns about the vaccines serious side effects such as death and the breakthrough deaths are criticized so harshly by some, as those 2 topics are facts, they are happening. Have a wonderful day.  I know some of you will be jumping for joy now, please remember your seniors and don't dislocate something.


No one is jumping for joy as far as I know.

As you know your opinions are welcome.  We all like you.  Post what you want.  I don’t think you were personally criticized for your opinions, although you may feel you were.  If I added to that feeling, I apologize.  @Becky1951

Besides, I see you already started another Covid thread , so apparently you are not leaving the Covid discussions behind.  I just think less attention getting drama would be better.  But if you like writing about Covid related discussions, then you go girl.  People are free to read them or not-as you said.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> I will leave you all to the Covid discussions, its apparent my opinion, views on this subject are not welcome here. Apparently I cause stress and panic, and post Covid related articles with information that members dislike. I don't understand why mine and a few others concerns about the vaccines serious side effects such as death and the breakthrough deaths are criticized so harshly by some, as those 2 topics are facts, they are happening. Have a wonderful day.  I know some of you will be jumping for joy now, please remember your seniors and don't dislocate something.


You should continue posting ALL Covid & Vaccine information.  It helps people make an informed choice - which is not what the "Experts" want. There will always be people who won't like an opinion that's different from theirs.  It shouldn't deter you; people like to feel confident in their decision & their confidence in this vaccine is already shaky to begin with.  We still need BOTH sides of the story & we're not getting both sides from those who profit from the vaccine.


----------



## hollydolly

Becky1951 said:


> I will leave you all to the Covid discussions, its apparent my opinion, views on this subject are not welcome here. Apparently I cause stress and panic, and post Covid related articles with information that members dislike. I don't understand why mine and a few others concerns about the vaccines serious side effects such as death and the breakthrough deaths are criticized so harshly by some, as those 2 topics are facts, they are happening. Have a wonderful day.  I know some of you will be jumping for joy now, please remember your seniors and don't dislocate something.


You don't cause stress and panic to me.... I'm sure I'm grown enough to know whether an opinion or stated facts  on a forum..are going to scare the beejezus out of me.. ,


----------



## Becky1951

Aneeda72 said:


> No one is jumping for joy as far as I know.
> 
> As you know your opinions are welcome.  We all like you.  Post what you want.  I don’t think you were personally criticized for your opinions, although you may feel you were.  If I added to that feeling, I apologize.  @Becky1951
> 
> Besides, I see you already started another Covid thread , so apparently you are not leaving the Covid discussions behind.  I just think less attention getting drama would be better.  But if you like writing about Covid related discussions, then you go girl.  People are free to read them or not-as you said.


"Besides, I see you already started another Covid thread"

_That was posted yesterday or early this am, not after I posted here._

"No one is jumping for joy as far as I know."

_Give it time_.   

_Thank you for your kind words Aneeda. Much appreciated_.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You should continue posting ALL Covid & Vaccine information.  It helps people make an informed choice - which is not what the "Experts" want. There will always be people who won't like an opinion that's different from theirs.  It shouldn't deter you; people like to feel confident in their decision & their confidence in this vaccine is already shaky to begin with.  We still need BOTH sides of the story & we're not getting both sides from those who profit from the vaccine.


*Information* _is_ a wonderful and helpful thing to share. I couldn't agree more with that thought. But when misinformation or undocumented statements and ideas are presented or represented to be actual and or factual, that helps no one and only deepens these already muddy waters.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> *Information* _is_ a wonderful and helpful thing to share. I couldn't agree more with that thought. But when misinformation or undocumented statements and ideas are presented or represented to be actual and or factual, that helps no one and only deepens these already muddy waters.


Just about every post I've seen (or posted myself) is accompanied by a link to the article or if that's not possible, copied & pasted.  The article usually lists the source of the information & those reading it can decide for themselves if they consider it valid or not.
The problem is, people who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information & they express it with disrespect & insults.  They're already frustrated at this situation, as we all are & they deal with their frustration poorly.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> Just about every post I've seen (or posted myself) is accompanied by a link to the article or if that's not possible, copied & pasted.  The article usually lists the source of the information & those reading it can decide for themselves if they consider it valid or not.
> The problem is, people who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information & they express it with disrespect & insults.  They're already frustrated at this situation, as we all are & they deal with their frustration poorly.


You use a very broad brush when you paint, me thinks. If all you're doing is spreading *valid information*, great, I applaud you.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Just about every post I've seen (or posted myself) is accompanied by a link to the article or if that's not possible, copied & pasted.  The article usually lists the source of the information & those reading it can decide for themselves if they consider it valid or not.
> The problem is, people who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information & they express it with disrespect & insults.  They're already frustrated at this situation, as we all are & they deal with their frustration poorly.


Well, I am not troubled by any negative vaccine information and I don’t think I have disrespected or insulted anyone but, if I have, apologies.  I don’t read the articles.  I am just not that interested as I have gotten 2 shots and will get the third as soon as I am allowed.  My mind is made up .

What troubles me is, as I said, who are the vaccinated catching the virus from?  The answer is, of course, the unvaccinated.  The unvaccinated should accept this responsibility-the sickness and death of others.  The inability of the human race to reach herd immunity. 

Therefore, those not vaccinated should expect to be excluded the from whatever they can be excluded from.  It is sad, to have to include the can not be vaccinated, in the excluded group, but life is not fair.  Besides the can not be vaccinated should not expose themselves anyway.

If I have any side effects from the third shot-I will let you know.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, I am not troubled by any negative vaccine information and I don’t think I have disrespected or insulted anyone but, if I have, apologies.  I don’t read the articles.  I am just not that interested as I have gotten 2 shots and will get the third as soon as I am allowed.  My mind is made up .
> 
> What troubles me is, as I said, who are the vaccinated catching the virus from?  The answer is, of course, the unvaccinated.  The unvaccinated should accept this responsibility-the sickness and death of others.  The inability of the human race to reach herd immunity.
> 
> Therefore, those not vaccinated should expect to be excluded the from whatever they can be excluded from.  It is sad, to have to include the can not be vaccinated, in the excluded group, but life is not fair.  Besides the can not be vaccinated should not expose themselves anyway.
> 
> If I have any side effects from the third shot-I will let you know.


Hey now, let us know even if you DON'T have any side effects too. After all, *all* information should be shared, as long as it's based in fact! That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it! Maybe your telling of living a happy life could help save someone else's.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

It was a very pleasant day here in the forums today. I wish every day and everyone was this kind. Thanks for making a better day, for me today. MUAH! 

Jesus isn’t the only one who loves you! Stay safe, verify your facts!


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, I am not troubled by any negative vaccine information and I don’t think I have disrespected or insulted anyone but, if I have, apologies.  I don’t read the articles.  I am just not that interested as I have gotten 2 shots and will get the third as soon as I am allowed.  My mind is made up .
> 
> What troubles me is, as I said, who are the vaccinated catching the virus from?  The answer is, of course, the unvaccinated.  The unvaccinated should accept this responsibility-the sickness and death of others.  The inability of the human race to reach herd immunity.
> 
> Therefore, those not vaccinated should expect to be excluded the from whatever they can be excluded from.  It is sad, to have to include the can not be vaccinated, in the excluded group, but life is not fair.  Besides the can not be vaccinated should not expose themselves anyway.
> 
> If I have any side effects from the third shot-I will let you know.


Think about it:  Much like the flu shot, if the shot worked, you COULDN'T get Covid from ANYONE - whether they were vaccinated or not.  That's where the lack of trust in what we're being told comes from. _ Things that don't make sense, aren't true._

And, every time they say, _"Masks and frequent testing are mandatory, even if you're vaccinated," _that means, _"We know the vaccine doesn't protect you or anyone else."  _Of course, they can't say that because no one would bother getting vaccinated.


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> "But the question is...
> Having established the fact that more unvaccinated people die, between anti and pro, who's reality will get them in trouble?"
> 
> _At this time_ the unvaccinated. So do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?  Do we hide all negative vaccine information in hopes they will get vaccinated?  If someone does not want to be vaccinated that is their right to choose. I don't have an answer to stop Covid, although I don't believe it will go away even with everyone being vaccinated. Not with the current vaccines anyway.
> 
> Is having doubts about the vaccine cause to label a person anti? I have had every vaccine suggested in my 70 years. I wanted to be vaccinated with the J&J one then they had clotting issues. Then My Dr didn't feel comfortable with my being vaccinate with any of them. So you see, not every one is anti who hasn't been vaccinated.



I apologize if I caused you any stress.  I didn't know you were sick. I was out of line and  I didn't mean to be disrespectful. You're the same age as my aunt who's like a second mother to me. I'm backing off from our little debate. 

I hope you continue to listen to your doctors, they know you best.  Stay healthy and stay safe always.


----------



## Jennina

win231 said:


> Labeling someone who doesn't want the vaccine _"Antivaxxer_" is an ignorant person's way of trying to feel superior.
> All put-down artists do this; it's the only way they can feel good about themselves.  They actually have low self esteem.



I'm taking the high road on this one cos I dont want us to sound like Beevus and Butthead. "You're stupid. No, you're stupid. No, you're stupider."

Im guessing  "antivaxxer" is a term coined by the media. They call the other group pro vaxxers and no one seems to be offended.  So what part of the term are you protesting?  The prefix anti???? It means against.

For someone who appears to be combative, you are too thin-skinned, even  getting offended by something non offensive. 

How do you want us to call you, then? Anti-vaccinator so you can feel like a Marvel hero?  I think antivaxxer is the more humane term because the other word coined by the media was covidiot. 

PS  For the record, you hurled the first insult.


----------



## Butterfly

GAlady said:


> Thank you for all the information.


I have read, and my own doctor says the opposite is true -- that there is no significant reduction in oxygenation from wearing masks.    He said he tested the theory out on himself and there was no real change in his numbers.  He did say that it could probably be true in patients with lung diseases where they are already struggling to breathe, but not in people with a healthy respiratory system.


----------



## Butterfly

Ladybj said:


> I don't think lab techs wear the designer mask.  I think they wear the blue mask where you can breathe...those are my favorite..the doctors wear those as well.  The vaccines we got as children..we have no idea how they are effecting us as adults.  There are soo many older adults with all sorts of health problems.   Have not seen any medical records, therefore I cannot connect the dots and probably never will be able to.  Bottom line "We don't know and the medical World don't have all the answers either.  I respect doctors sooo much that say, "we don't know".



trying to blame the fact that older people have more health problems than younger ones on vaccinations is a bit disingenuous, to put it politely.  Since the beginning of time older people have had more health problems than younger ones -- it is the nature of life and aging.  The body wears out, just like anything else.


----------



## Butterfly

Aneeda72 said:


> It was 1955. I doubt the involvement of many, if any, women.  I used the ”fat man in the basement” as an analogy to something said by a political entity-now gone but not buried.  . I was being sarcastic.
> 
> Computers can track the side effects of millions of people who have been vaccinated, world wide, to see what, if any, of those worrisome side effects of the vaccine are.  As computers are tracking the know side effects of having Covid-19-as in “long haulers”.  So far, the virus is winning in the long term side effect area.


and death is a VERY long term side effect of covid.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> Think about it:  Much like the flu shot, if the shot worked, you COULDN'T get Covid from ANYONE - whether they were vaccinated or not.  That's where the lack of trust in what we're being told comes from. _ Things that don't make sense, aren't true._
> 
> And, every time they say, _"Masks and frequent testing are mandatory, even if you're vaccinated," _that means, _"We know the vaccine doesn't protect you or anyone else."  _Of course, they can't say that because no one would bother getting vaccinated.


Actually, some things that don’t make sense ARE true, VERY true. 

I don’t know but maybe you have heard of something called the _placebo effect_? It’s where an improvement in health happens, sometimes, when a person believes the “sugar pill” they take in a test trial is helping to treat them. That’s not an exact explanation but a simplified one. Doesn’t make sense but sense doesn’t make something true or not true. And I think that it’s already been determined that more unvaccinated people are causing the uptick in Covid cases than those who were vaccinated. I didn’t look it up today but that’s been the case, to the best of my knowledge, until now. Yes, some who are vaccinated do become infected or re-infected. Viruses can and do mutate into different strains. So a virus developed this week may not be as effective against next weeks mutated virus. But the fewer virus cases there are would seem to make elimination and eradication more likely. All or nothing thinking isn’t very helpful or at least doesn’t seem to be doing much to help stop the thread of the Covid virus. Vaccinations seem to have done much more.

And every time they say … Every is a strong word. And “We know the vaccine doesn’t protect you or anyone else.” It seems that new cases have diminished quite a bit since vaccinations began. Maybe vaccinations DO have some positive effect, even if it’s only a placebo one. Fewer people are being infected because fewer people are carriers and I believe that there are fewer carriers thanks to vaccines.

Always, never, should, they and no one are all fine terms used in context. And pro-vax or anti-vax are just attempts to use a label, much like black or white, she or he, or any myriad of others that humans use to organize their trains of thought. If not being vaccinated feels like it’s the best decision for YOU, then that’s YOUR choice. But YOUR choice or MY choice does not necessarily become the ONLY choice for EVERYONE. And when THEY say THIS or when THEY say THAT, those capitalized words become labels, much like vaxxer or antivaxxer. I hope that YOU don’t contract any infection from Covid but if you do you had the CHOICE to be vaccinated or not and so YOUR fate is in YOUR hands. Best of luck to you there. I just hope that if you do become infected that you won’t pass YOUR infection on to someone else, vaccinated or not.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Covid SEEMS to be be getting better at spreading as time goes on. They can’t be vaccinated and they don’t become infected as often but _babies are infecting their families and caregivers in their homes, _at times. Babies also can’t wear masks. I think that most seniors won’t come into contact with babies so much as they might with the parents and caretakers of them but it’s yet one more thing to consider, perhaps, as science tries to stop the spread of Covid. Here is the article link - *Babies spreading Covid?* It was published in The New York Times.


----------



## squatting dog

Aneeda72 said:


> I was talking about how I feel that you use drama to attempt to put your point across-no one is going to push into anyone’s house to vaccinate anyone.  Suggesting such a thing is using drama and it also tries to push people into a certain level of panic.  The panic thing has already been discussed.


Not so fast... Never say never.
 It is within the govt. power to forcibly vaccinate.
 The government has the ability to force vaccinations in times of epidemic or pandemic viruses. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that governments can force vaccination of citizens. This Constitutional power can be exercised even if there is significant medical concern about the effectiveness or safety of the vaccine. The law currently stands that, in circumstances like this, the courts will defer to and trust the decisions of the elected government officials as to forced vaccinations, even though there is a risk of serious mistakes or side effects.

  In reality, government officials are likely to get our population vaccinated for COVID through a more politically palatable (pleasant to accept) fashion other than forced vaccination. The tool that is likely to be used is the federal government’s almost unlimited legal ability to tax and spend.

Therefore, the government could impose taxes and spend the taxes to encourage vaccination. Currently, the proposal being most frequently discussed is to borrow (and eventually taxed citizens to pay that debt) for a financial stimulus plan, and then give the direct stimulus payments to those citizens who voluntarily vaccinate themselves and their families.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> What the heck are you talking about?  The two of you?
> 
> Who was it on the forum who recently said it was the people who received the vaccines that labeled the people who did not get the vaccines as ignorant and other names?  . There was also a discussion about only discussing the issues, and not calling people other names for their stance on the issues.  If only my memory was better, I could point you to those discussions.
> 
> Yet, there you go.  @win231  “Put down artists, ignorant people“ and @Becky1951 dramatics “do we rush into the homes of the unvaccinated and forcibly vaccinate them against their will?”  When will it ever stop?  This silliness.  People are DYING.
> 
> Seems it is the not vaccinated who push against the vaccinated, to me.
> 
> The vaccinated do not put the not vaccinated at risk.  The not vaccinated put everyone at risk unless they stay at home, avoid other people, and wear the appropriate mask when it is necessary for them to go out on public.  How about the two of you discuss that issue?
> 
> The issue of how the not vaccinated can keep other people safe, not themselves safe, other people safe from them.  How about the not vaccinated stop being dramatic about how many vaccinated people have died from the virus since the vaccinated people caught the virus from the non vaccinated-and acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the sickness and deaths?
> 
> How about the non vaccinated acknowledge that they are partly responsible for the surge of the virus in various states, the sickness of men, woman, and children; and the many deaths of the same.  How about @win231 and @Becky1951 discuss the drama of this situation instead of the continued never-ending discussion of long term side effects of the vaccine.
> 
> *Have you noticed that one of the short term side effects of the virus is death?*


You have it backwards.  


Jennina said:


> I'm taking the high road on this one cos I dont want us to sound like Beevus and Butthead. "You're stupid. No, you're stupid. No, you're stupider."
> 
> Im guessing  "antivaxxer" is a term coined by the media. They call the other group pro vaxxers and no one seems to be offended.  So what part of the term are you protesting?  The prefix anti???? It means against.
> 
> For someone who appears to be combative, you are too thin-skinned, even  getting offended by something non offensive.
> 
> How do you want us to call you, then? Anti-vaccinator so you can feel like a Marvel hero?  I think antivaxxer is the more humane term because the other word coined by the media was covidiot.
> 
> PS  For the record, you hurled the first insult.


The term "Antivaxxer" implies that someone is against _all _vaccines, rather than someone who doesn't trust an unapproved vaccine that was rushed into production without sufficient research, study & testing.   That is what makes the term an ignorant one to use.


----------



## win231

Jennina said:


> I'm taking the high road on this one cos I dont want us to sound like Beevus and Butthead. "You're stupid. No, you're stupid. No, you're stupider."
> 
> Im guessing  "antivaxxer" is a term coined by the media. They call the other group pro vaxxers and no one seems to be offended.  So what part of the term are you protesting?  The prefix anti???? It means against.
> 
> For someone who appears to be combative, you are too thin-skinned, even  getting offended by something non offensive.
> 
> How do you want us to call you, then? Anti-vaccinator so you can feel like a Marvel hero?  I think antivaxxer is the more humane term because the other word coined by the media was covidiot.
> 
> PS  For the record, you hurled the first insult.


You have it backwards.  The first insult is from the person who labels anyone who doesn't trust a new, untested  Covid vaccine an "Antivaxxer," which implies they're against all vaccines.  When you hit someone first, you can expect to get hit back.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You have it backwards.  The first insult is from the person who labels anyone who doesn't trust a new, untested  Covid vaccine an "Antivaxxer," which implies they're against all vaccines.  When you hit someone first, you can expect to get hit back.


Beavis? Isn't that what you said?
Uh, yeah, yeah! heh heh heh!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

squatting dog said:


> Not so fast... Never say never.
> It is within the govt. power to forcibly vaccinate.
> The government has the ability to force vaccinations in times of epidemic or pandemic viruses. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that governments can force vaccination of citizens. This Constitutional power can be exercised even if there is significant medical concern about the effectiveness or safety of the vaccine. The law currently stands that, in circumstances like this, the courts will defer to and trust the decisions of the elected government officials as to forced vaccinations, even though there is a risk of serious mistakes or side effects.
> 
> In reality, government officials are likely to get our population vaccinated for COVID through a more politically palatable (pleasant to accept) fashion other than forced vaccination. The tool that is likely to be used is the federal government’s almost unlimited legal ability to tax and spend.
> 
> Therefore, the government could impose taxes and spend the taxes to encourage vaccination. Currently, the proposal being most frequently discussed is to borrow (and eventually taxed citizens to pay that debt) for a financial stimulus plan, and then give the direct stimulus payments to those citizens who voluntarily vaccinate themselves and their families.


@squatting dog   Maybe they're doing it already. Chemtrails? Will my tin foil hat protect me from being vaccinated through chemtrails? Hmmm ... Kinda makes one wonder, don't it though?


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> Actually, some things that don’t make sense ARE true, VERY true.
> 
> I don’t know but maybe you have heard of something called the _placebo effect_? It’s where an improvement in health happens, sometimes, when a person believes the “sugar pill” they take in a test trial is helping to treat them. That’s not an exact explanation but a simplified one. Doesn’t make sense but sense doesn’t make something true or not true. And I think that it’s already been determined that more unvaccinated people are causing the uptick in Covid cases than those who were vaccinated. I didn’t look it up today but that’s been the case, to the best of my knowledge, until now. Yes, some who are vaccinated do become infected or re-infected. Viruses can and do mutate into different strains. So a virus developed this week may not be as effective against next weeks mutated virus. But the fewer virus cases there are would seem to make elimination and eradication more likely. All or nothing thinking isn’t very helpful or at least doesn’t seem to be doing much to help stop the thread of the Covid virus. Vaccinations seem to have done much more.
> 
> And every time they say … Every is a strong word. And “We know the vaccine doesn’t protect you or anyone else.” It seems that new cases have diminished quite a bit since vaccinations began. Maybe vaccinations DO have some positive effect, even if it’s only a placebo one. Fewer people are being infected because fewer people are carriers and I believe that there are fewer carriers thanks to vaccines.
> 
> Always, never, should, they and no one are all fine terms used in context. And pro-vax or anti-vax are just attempts to use a label, much like black or white, she or he, or any myriad of others that humans use to organize their trains of thought. If not being vaccinated feels like it’s the best decision for YOU, then that’s YOUR choice. But YOUR choice or MY choice does not necessarily become the ONLY choice for EVERYONE. And when THEY say THIS or when THEY say THAT, those capitalized words become labels, much like vaxxer or antivaxxer. I hope that YOU don’t contract any infection from Covid but if you do you had the CHOICE to be vaccinated or not and so YOUR fate is in YOUR hands. Best of luck to you there. I just hope that if you do become infected that you won’t pass YOUR infection on to someone else, vaccinated or not.


Everyone has heard of the Placebo effect.  For me, that's not enough reason to get a vaccine, drug, or medical procedure I don't trust or that I find unnecessary.  Your mileage may vary.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> Beavis? Isn't that what you said?
> Uh, yeah, yeah! heh heh heh!


^^^ Creativity & intelligence at its best.
Pity that's the best you can do.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> Everyone has heard of the Placebo effect.  For me, that's not enough reason to get a vaccine, drug, or medical procedure I don't trust or that I find unnecessary.  Your mileage may vary.


Maybe there's a reason that we have two eyes, two ears and one mouth. I'm not sure. but I am sure that you stated in post #167,  _"Things that don't make sense, aren't true." _(The italics are/were yours, BTW.) My mileage is fine. In fact, it gets better almost on a daily basis but the placebo effect and much of what you espouse doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> Maybe there's a reason that we have two eyes, two ears and one mouth. I'm not sure. but I am sure that you stated in post #167,  _"Things that don't make sense, aren't true." _(The italics are/were yours, BTW.) My mileage is fine. In fact, it gets better almost on a daily basis but the placebo effect and much of what you espouse doesn't make sense to me.


You have to have sense for something to make sense.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You have to have sense for something to make sense.


When you, meaning you, say that "*You* have to have sense for _something_ to make sense" does that mean only me, myself or to whom is your message directed? I naturally thought you meant me as it was in reply to my previous message. And this ephermal "something" that "you have to have", what might that refer to? You, meaning you, seem to be speaking in fairly nebulous terms. I can't make sense of what it is that your ideas mean at times. I'm not saying that you are but you sometimes _sound_ delusional, at least to me. Even though your typed words make no sound that I can hear. But I listen, nonetheless.


----------



## ManjaroKDE

Our park's story, one woman over 65 has held steadfastly to her anti/mask/vaccine stance since the beginning.  Yesterday we witnessed emergency vehicles at her location.  This morning our manager stopped us during our walk to let us know that the woman has tested positive and was admitted to intensive care with full blown covid.  The manager then relayed that she (the manager) is on 2 week quarantine since she was in close contact with her during the last week or so, even though she has had her vaccine.

Word is spreading around that her friends are nervous.


----------



## Ladybj

Butterfly said:


> trying to blame the fact that older people have more health problems than younger ones on vaccinations is a bit disingenuous, to put it politely.  Since the beginning of time older people have had more health problems than younger ones -- it is the nature of life and aging.  The body wears out, just like anything else.


My point was..we have no idea how vaccines effected us as we have gotten older...probably no effect.  My kids were vaccinated when they were babies.  For the record, some younger people have more health issues than older adults and there are PLENTY of older adults that are healthy and doing fine - especially ones that are not on a lot of medications which can be hard on the body...jmo.


----------



## Ladybj

win231 said:


> You should continue posting ALL Covid & Vaccine information.  It helps people make an informed choice - which is not what the "Experts" want. There will always be people who won't like an opinion that's different from theirs.  It shouldn't deter you; people like to feel confident in their decision & their confidence in this vaccine is already shaky to begin with.  We still need BOTH sides of the story & we're not getting both sides from those who profit from the vaccine.


I agree 101% - @Becky1951  Keep the post coming.  I was listening to a pod cast and one doctor really broke it down very well about the Covid vaccine.  Will not discuss it here... we all do our own research and do what's best for us and our health.  Being PUSHED way too hard for me to even consider taking it.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

It's just too bad that there is no vaccine against bitterness, paranoia and unkindness. Then again though, I imagine that there would still be people who didn't trust that or think that our world would be better off if those things were to be eradicated. And I guarantee but without any supporting documentation, that no mask will protect anyone from bitterness, paranoia or unkindness.


----------



## Ladybj

win231 said:


> Just about every post I've seen (or posted myself) is accompanied by a link to the article or if that's not possible, copied & pasted.  The article usually lists the source of the information & those reading it can decide for themselves if they consider it valid or not.
> The problem is, people who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information & they express it with disrespect & insults.  They're already frustrated at this situation, as we all are & they deal with their frustration poorly.


I find that to be sooooo TRUE.  "People who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information".   That's why I try not to get into vaccine debates.  I will give my view on it as every one is entitled to.  It is interesting that people that are unvax seem to not be bothered as much whether someone is vax or not.  We all do what is best for us.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Ladybj said:


> I find that to be sooooo TRUE.  "People who choose to be vaccinated are troubled by any negative vaccine information".   That's why I try not to get into vaccine debates.  I will give my view on it as every one is entitled to.  It is interesting that people that are unvax seem to not be bothered as much whether someone is vax or not.  We all do what is best for us.


I'm glad we agree on at least one point but my experience has been that both sides are pretty adamant about what they "know". Sure, we all are welcome to express our views but in the end, I don't think that many if any of OUR views would qualify as expert ones. But hey, thanks for seeing what I feel is TRUE too!

And just as a side note, you mention vax and unvax. Are those the proper terms to use that are non or less offensive? I've read that many of what you might call unvax's get upset when mentioned as antivaxxers. Me, I don't care what you call me, just as long as it's not late for dinner!


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> When you, meaning you, say that "*You* have to have sense for _something_ to make sense" does that mean only me, myself or to whom is your message directed? I naturally thought you meant me as it was in reply to my previous message. And this ephermal "something" that "you have to have", what might that refer to? You, meaning you, seem to be speaking in fairly nebulous terms. I can't make sense of what it is that your ideas mean at times. I'm not saying that you are but you sometimes _sound_ delusional, at least to me. Even though your typed words make no sound that I can hear. But I listen, nonetheless.





Ladybj said:


> My point was..we have no idea how vaccines effected us as we have gotten older...probably no effect.  My kids were vaccinated when they were babies.  For the record, some younger people have more health issues than older adults and there are PLENTY of older adults that are healthy and doing fine - especially ones that are not on a lot of medications which can be hard on the body...jmo.


^^^ The smartest people are thinkers.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

And some of the dumbest people I've encountered think that their thoughts are true ones. But the truly smart people don't believe every though that enters their minds. They know better than the lesser thinkers, the value of filtering and questioning.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> I'm glad we agree on at least one point but my experience has been that both sides are pretty adamant about what they "know". Sure, we all are welcome to express our views but in the end, I don't think that many if any of OUR views would qualify as expert ones. But hey, thanks for seeing what I feel is TRUE too!
> 
> And just as a side note, you mention vax and unvax. Are those the proper terms to use that are non or less offensive? I've read that many of what you might call unvax's get upset when mentioned as antivaxxers. Me, I don't care what you call me, just as long as it's not late for dinner!


In which post I agreed with you?  I think it was a post from Win that I agreed..


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> I'm glad we agree on at least one point but my experience has been that both sides are pretty adamant about what they "know". Sure, we all are welcome to express our views but in the end, I don't think that many if any of OUR views would qualify as expert ones. But hey, thanks for seeing what I feel is TRUE too!
> 
> And just as a side note, you mention vax and unvax. Are those the proper terms to use that are non or less offensive? I've read that many of what you might call unvax's get upset when mentioned as antivaxxers. Me, I don't care what you call me, just as long as it's not late for dinner!


You are mistaken (again).  People who don't want the Covid vaccine do not think they know more than those who want it.  It's what they _don't_ know that makes them avoid the vaccine.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You are mistaken (again).  People who don't want the Covid vaccine do not think they know more than those who want it.  It's what they _don't_ know that makes them avoid the vaccine.


I doubt that you'll EVER listen to me, since you don't seem to have done so thus far. Maybe this guy can explain to you better than I have been able to but I'm not optimistic that you'll take his word on anything either due mainly to just what he said.





And just to clarify, it's Mr Twain saying YOU and not me.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> I doubt that you'll EVER listen to me, since you don't seem to have done so thus far. Maybe this guy can explain to you better than I have been able to but I'm not optimistic that you'll take his word on anything either due mainly to just what he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just to clarify, it's Mr Twain saying YOU and not me.


So saying the Vaccine is a sure thing - "Just ain't so" ?


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Ladybj said:


> In which post I agreed with you?  I think it was a post from Win that I agreed..


You are so right, it _was_ win231that you were agreeing with! Sometimes when one is being attacked from all sides it's togh to keep track of where all the shots are coming from. I apologize for thinking that you were being agreeable.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Ladybj said:


> So saying the Vaccine is a sure thing - "Just ain't so"


Then why would you say that it were as you just did? You might want to tape that quote to your forehead and give it some time to penetrate into what you know already. There's a message there, I promise you!

I don't know who said this but I've heard and believe that there are TWO sides to most stories. You seem to only want your side read.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> It's just too bad that there is no vaccine against bitterness, paranoia and unkindness. Then again though, I imagine that there would still be people who didn't trust that or think that our world would be better off if those things were to be eradicated. And I guarantee but without any supporting documentation, that no mask will protect anyone from bitterness, paranoia or unkindness.





Chris P Bacon said:


> Then why would you say that it were as you just did? You might want to tape that quote to your forehead and give it some time to penetrate into what you know already. There's a message there, I promise you!


You're correct - there is no vaccine or mask that prevents unkindness.  It's not preventing yours.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> When you, meaning you, say that "*You* have to have sense for _something_ to make sense" does that mean only me, myself or to whom is your message directed? I naturally thought you meant me as it was in reply to my previous message. And this ephermal "something" that "you have to have", what might that refer to? You, meaning you, seem to be speaking in fairly nebulous terms. I can't make sense of what it is that your ideas mean at times. I'm not saying that you are but you sometimes _sound_ delusional, at least to me. Even though your typed words make no sound that I can hear. But I listen, nonetheless.


If you really try hard, you might figure it out.
Maybe.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> You're correct - there is no vaccine or mask that prevents unkindness.  It's not preventing yours.


Nor your either, sir. Nor yours either, sadly enough though you don't see that. I love you anyway!  C'mon, play in the traffic!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> If you really try hard, you might figure it out.
> Maybe.


I believe that since I posted it I had a figure in mind already. But try as I might, I doubt that I'll EVER figure out you or people like you. But I love ya anyway. Hate the sin, love the sinner! Amen!


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> Then why would you say that it were as you just did? You might want to tape that quote to your forehead and give it some time to penetrate into what you know already. There's a message there, I promise you!
> 
> I don't know who said this but I've heard and believe that there are TWO sides to most stories. You seem to only want your side read.


   I read the quote a few times...no need to tape to my forehead. Matter of fact, I love the quote. Makes me more adamant in not getting the vaccine. Thank you for clarity...much appreciated.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

And I thank YOU for _knowing_ that you understand what the quote means. You love the quote and I love you! Love the sinner, hate the sin! Hallelujah!


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> And I thank YOU for _knowing_ that you understand what the quote means. You love the quote and I love you! Love the sinner, hate the sin! Hallelujah!


And I love you to.  One GREAT thing about life is that everyone has a right to their opinion.   My understanding on different issues may differ from yours and that is OK!!!  You see life different from others and that is OK!!  And some people see life the same as you and that is.... wait for it, wait for it..  IT'S OK!!!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Seriously? You really do? Then *please get vaccinated* so you won't infect me with any viruses! Love me to what?


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> Seriously? You really do? Then *please get vaccinated* so you won't infect me with any viruses! Love me to what?


I love everyone.  We are all God's children.  How can I say I hate anyone that God created.  If I say I love God, how can I hate his creation.  My love is not conditional..  Me getting vaccinated is not a condition of love.  My hubby was vaccinated and he has not said to me - if you love me you will get vaccinated.  If so, I would have said to him, if you love me you would not ask me to.  

If you are vaccinated why are you concerned whether I get vaccinated or not.  You chose to get vaccinated for protection - You trust and _understand _the information you received prior to getting the vaccine...therefore why are you depending on others to get vaccinated. You should feel comfortable enough that if you got the virus, it will be mild being that you got the vaccine.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Well, you may want to sit down before reading further, I'm not your hubby and not everyone believes we were created by your god or any other gods. And you're right, getting vaccinated is NOT a condition of love. It's a privilege and if you choose to not avail yourself of that privilege then I doubt that even your god or your hubby could see that you take advantage while you still are alive. I don't wish Covid on you or anyone else. I had it already and I've also been vaccinated. I don't know if the vaccine works or not but so far, I know that I first caught Covid _before_ I was vaccinated and haven't had any negative side effects or been re-infected post vaccination. I guess though that with the mutuations of the virus that have happened since I was vaccinated back in April and the mutations that may still be going, my vaccine was developed before these mutations were around, so yes, it's possible that some un or non vaccinated individual might infect me with some new strain of Covid that became a variant AFTER my vaccine was developed. If it's you who infects me though, that won't change the fact that I love you anyway but I probably won't get close enough to hug you or to allow you to hug me.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> Well, you may want to sit down before reading further, I'm not your hubby and not everyone believes we were created by your god or any other gods. And you're right, getting vaccinated is NOT a condition of love. It's a privilege and if you choose to not avail yourself of that privilege then I doubt that even your god or your hubby could see that you take advantage while you still are alive. I don't wish Covid on you or anyone else. I had it already and I've also been vaccinated. I don't know if the vaccine works or not but so far, I know that I first caught Covid _before_ I was vaccinated and haven't had any negative side effects or been re-infected post vaccination. I guess though that with the mutuations of the virus that have happened since I was vaccinated back in April and the mutations that may still be going, my vaccine was developed before these mutations were around, so yes, it's possible that some un or non vaccinated individual might infect me with some new strain of Covid that became a variant AFTER my vaccine was developed. If it's you who infects me though, that won't change the fact that I love you anyway but I probably won't get close enough to hug you or to allow you to hug me.


No you  are not my hubby.  I get kisses and hugs from him.  He is not paranoid that I am not vaccinated.  I have no need to get close to you or hug you..so you can relax.  Hallelujah!!!!!


----------



## win231

Ladybj said:


> I love everyone.  We are all God's children.  How can I say I hate anyone that God created.  If I say I love God, how can I hate his creation.  My love is not conditional..  Me getting vaccinated is not a condition of love.  My hubby was vaccinated and he has not said to me - if you love me you will get vaccinated.  If so, I would have said to him, if you love me you would not ask me to.
> 
> If you are vaccinated why are you concerned whether I get vaccinated or not.  You chose to get vaccinated for protection - You trust and _understand _the information you received prior to getting the vaccine...therefore why are you depending on others to get vaccinated. You should feel comfortable enough that if you got the virus, it will be mild being that you got the vaccine.


Controllers don't think that way.  They want everyone to make the same choices they made.
And their confidence in the vaccine is already shaky & when others choose not to get vaccinated, it further weakens their confidence.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

For my friends here on the forum, this ones for you, all of you!


----------



## Ladybj

win231 said:


> Controllers don't think that way.  They want everyone to make the same choices they made.
> And their confidence in the vaccine is already shaky & when others choose not to get vaccinated, it further weakens their confidence.


VERY WELL STATED!!!!!  I just have to SMH.  Now they are coming out with Booster shots for those that have been vaccinated.  Will there be a fourth shot??  Bottom line do what is best for you but don't make others feel they need to do the same.  We have NO idea what others are going through health wise and the medical field have no idea how it will effect people.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

win231 said:


> Controllers don't think that way.  They want everyone to make the same choices they made.
> And their confidence in the vaccine is already shaky & when others choose not to get vaccinated, it further weakens their confidence.


I imagine that it’s only a mater of time before someone here, who throws insults and thinks that they’re smarter than everyone else, comes down with a case of Covid. And when that happens I imagine that at least one or two of those who didn’t choose to get vaccinated before might reconsider but then again too, maybe they won’t. So be it. I don’t wish anyone bad luck, I love you all but I will say this, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. A person can be led to knowledge but no one can make them think. Be as spiteful and all knowing as you like. Pretty soon that ball will drop in one of those spots as the wheel spins down … Will it be YOUR number it drops into or maybe your co-horts ? I don’t know and I don’t wish you badly but I can’t make you think. You’ll live with your choices or possibly die or worse, cause some other innocent soul to die. Just because you knew what you know. John 11:35


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> I imagine that irs only a mater of time someone here, who throws insults and thinks that they’re smarter than everyone else, comes down with a case of Covid. And when that happens I imagine that at least one or two of those who didn’t choose to get vaccinated before might reconsider but then agai too, maybe they won’t. So be it. I don’t wish anyone bad luck, I love you all but I will say this, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. A person can be led to knowledge but no one can make them think. Be as spiteful and all knowing as you like. Pretty soon that ball will drop in one of those spots as the wheel spins down … Will it be YOUR number it drops into or maybe your co-hotts? I don’t know and I don’t wish you badly but I can’t make you think. You’ll live with your choices or possibly die or worse, cause some other innocent soul to die. Just because you knew what you know. John 11:35


Sending you positive energy.


----------



## Chris P Bacon




----------



## squatting dog

Chris P Bacon said:


> I imagine that it’s only a mater of time before someone here, who throws insults and thinks that they’re smarter than everyone else, comes down with a case of Covid. And when that happens I imagine that at least one or two of those who didn’t choose to get vaccinated before might reconsider but then again too, maybe they won’t. So be it.


That sword cuts both ways. It may only be a matter of time before someone close to me or you has been vaxxed and died. The problem there lies in the fact that anyone already vaxxed cannot undo it.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

squatting dog said:


> That sword cuts both ways. It may only be a matter of time before someone close to me or you has been vaxxed and died. The problem there lies in the fact that anyone already vaxxed cannot undo it.


Everyone dies in the end vaccinated or not. I trust science more than I trust some armchair expert. I stand by my words.


----------



## Knight

Masks. 
Used by medical personel in operating rooms since forever. Also by many others such as body shop repair, painters, welders. So while not the perfect solution they offer some protection as opposed to none.

Vaccinations.
Still in the test stage unlike prior when releasing to the public took several years. The was IMO a need to rush use due to rapid spread & world wide death. I'd bet prior vaccines had various negative results with some maybe all, but prior vaccines were ultimately effective. 

All we have to go on is unfolding info as time passes. What we do with the info is a personal choice.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> I imagine that it’s only a mater of time before someone here, who throws insults and thinks that they’re smarter than everyone else, comes down with a case of Covid. And when that happens I imagine that at least one or two of those who didn’t choose to get vaccinated before might reconsider but then again too, maybe they won’t. So be it. I don’t wish anyone bad luck, I love you all but I will say this, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. A person can be led to knowledge but no one can make them think. Be as spiteful and all knowing as you like. Pretty soon that ball will drop in one of those spots as the wheel spins down … Will it be YOUR number it drops into or maybe your co-horts ? I don’t know and I don’t wish you badly but I can’t make you think. You’ll live with your choices or possibly die or worse, cause some other innocent soul to die. Just because you knew what you know. John 11:35


Well, maybe if you pray hard enough, you might get what you want.  Then you can say, "Told ya so."


----------



## Jennina

win231 said:


> You have it backwards.  The first insult is from the person who labels anyone who doesn't trust a new, untested  Covid vaccine an "Antivaxxer," which implies they're against all vaccines.  When you hit someone first, you can expect to get hit back.



Before anything else,  sorry I don't really do private chats or whatever that envelope thingy is where your name appeared.   I prefer to talk here. 

Anyway, this is a welcome twist, although I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance --- political correctness sprung on me by a ???  

You didn't say how you wanted to be called. For someone who claims he was insulted and offended enough to hurl insults, you're pretty slow in labeling yourself.

Kudos to you on  the  deflection attempt. . After Becky and I  have established that more unvaccinated  die compared to the vaccinated,  you attacked the person.   Typical deflection strategy. 

But I would gladly walk down Deflection Lane with you right now.

First, your little morphology lesson , yes you're right.   Anti vaxxer implies  that a person  hates all vaccines and that includes Covid vaccines.  You  are a subset of the anti vaxxer population. Ergo, it is not entirely incorrect to call you an anti vaxxer. 

However, if you inject the PC bit, yes you are correct. Just like LGBTQ+, you want your own "letter".  I get that.  And you're similar to  black people who say not all black people are African Americans. I respect that, too. 

Now tell us how do you want to be called?  (BTW, I think I already know what term you're going to use,  still I  await with bated breath.)

But wait, there's more... 

This is the tenet of the anti vaccine movement: Vaccines are unsafe and cause health issues and the  government and pharmaceutical companies suppress this   information from the public.

Based on your posts that I've read,    you seem to fit the profile of an  antivaxxer. You've made several comments that are not confined  to  Covid on this thread alone. Your undying hatred for doctors calling them.corrupt.;  that pharmaceuticals are profit mongers, , you've disavowed scientists and experts, you act like your human rights are being violated.  Dude, that is hard core anti vaxxer. 

So, if you talk like an antivaxxer, act like an antivaxxer, behave like an antivaxxer, expect to be called an anti vaxxer.


----------



## ManjaroKDE

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering...onavirus-research-paved-way-covid-19-vaccines

10 years is not enough for others, but I have nothing better to base my concerns on.


----------



## Brookswood

One thing to add with masks, if you choose to wear one, wear a good one - an N95 or a KN95 that you can fit tightly to your face.    Most of the cloth masks, while better than nothing, do not match the protection of a proper N95 that fits snuggly.   

Yes, I know. Getting it to fit snuggly is often a problem.   There is money to be made by designing an N95 mask that Joe and Jane Citizen can easily and properly fit to their face.


----------



## Jules

The reason that some people don’t get the vaccine is a fear of needles.  My 22 year old grandson who is really strong and muscle bound  was just about to pass out when his mother took him to a pop up clinic. He had the classic shoulders up to his ears, clenched fists, white as a ghost look until my DD had him look away.  He didn’t even know he’d had the shot.  According to the nurse, this fear isn’t rare.


----------



## Sunny

That's an interesting point Jules, one that I have not seen addressed here before. I wonder, if the vaccine was available as a pill, if all these imaginary bad reactions, and all the resentment against the medical establishment, would instantly disappear?

Today's paper had a feature article about a day in the life of a few doctors in rural Alabama, who had 10 unvaccinated elderly patients come in to the clinic, for various ailments. One after another, the doctors asked if they had reconsidered the Covid shot,, and one after another they came up with the most dubious fears, imaginary dangers, stories of what had happened to "a friend of a friend," etc. until the 10th patient was finally intelligent enough to say yes. These were people who had battled cancer, some of them had parts of lungs missing, etc.  They knew what the death toll was, and they knew that due to Covid, there were no hospital beds available for anyone else who needed them. Yet, they were still stubbornly saying, "Well, I don't know.  I'll think about it."

The doctors had an amazing amount of kindness and patience. But they were still only able to convince one out of ten. And the death toll of the unvaccinated continues to rise.


----------



## Brookswood

The schools will be a big test.   If schools are closed again and we are back to the awful online classrooms, I think a lot of parents will not be happy with those who refuse  the vaccine, but still want to be out and about at work, in stores, at the public library, at restaurants, etc. while risking spreading the virus to others.    They can't have their rights while ignoring the rights of others to things like a safe work place and a good education.   If kids get sick because of non vaccinated adults....   Look out.

IMO, as corona virus continues to take its grim toll of  non vaccinated people, I think more and more of them will decide to get vaccinated.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Jules said:


> The reason that some people don’t get the vaccine is a fear of needles.  My 22 year old grandson who is really strong and muscle bound  was just about to pass out when his mother took him to a pop up clinic. He had the classic shoulders up to his ears, clenched fists, white as a ghost look until my DD had him look away.  He didn’t even know he’d had the shot.  According to the nurse, this fear isn’t rare.


Ya know, I doubt that had I been asked, that I would have waited in line to be circumcised but I didn't have that choice. People are afraid of all sorts of things. Fear is not what kills most. Disease and infection do. Tell him thanks for me for taking one for the team!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Sunny said:


> That's an interesting point Jules, one that I have not seen addressed here before. I wonder, if the vaccine was available as a pill, if all these imaginary bad reactions, and all the resentment against the medical establishment, would instantly disappear?
> 
> Today's paper had a feature article about a day in the life of a few doctors in rural Alabama, who had 10 unvaccinated elderly patients come in to the clinic, for various ailments. One after another, the doctors asked if they had reconsidered the Covid shot,, and one after another they came up with the most dubious fears, imaginary dangers, stories of what had happened to "a friend of a friend," etc. until the 10th patient was finally intelligent enough to say yes. These were people who had battled cancer, some of them had parts of lungs missing, etc.  They knew what the death toll was, and they knew that due to Covid, there were no hospital beds available for anyone else who needed them. Yet, they were still stubbornly saying, "Well, I don't know.  I'll think about it."
> 
> The doctors had an amazing amount of kindness and patience. But they were still only able to convince one out of ten. And the death toll of the unvaccinated continues to rise.


Not getting vaccinated would seem to put many more at risk besides just the one refusing vaccination. To me, that seems selfish. Getting vaccinated, yes, entails some risk, MAYBE, still would seem to help the one vaccinated as well as potentially anyone else they might come into contact with. That seems selfless to me. I'd rather live in a world with fewer selfish people and a LOT more selfless people. Just MY opinion. Yours may be different and if it is, you're welcome to make me aware of that but truly, I just don't care. If you're one who refuses to listen to reason then I'm one who will refuse to listen to you. Plain and simple, I just don't have time for any jibber jabber. I'm too busy living life vaccinated and Covid free! Selfish people suck!


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> Everyone dies in the end vaccinated or not. I trust science more than I trust some armchair expert. I stand by my words.


My hubby believe in Science as well and there is nothing wrong with that. We all believe in what be believe and that is AOK...


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> Not getting vaccinated would seem to put many more at risk besides just the one refusing vaccination. To me, that seems selfish. Getting vaccinated, yes, entails some risk, MAYBE, still would seem to help the one vaccinated as well as potentially anyone else they might come into contact with. That seems selfless to me. I'd rather live in a world with fewer selfish people and a LOT more selfless people. Just MY opinion. Yours may be different and if it is, you're welcome to make me aware of that but truly, I just don't care. If you're one who refuses to listen to reason then I'm one who will refuse to listen to you. Plain and simple, I just don't have time for any jibber jabber. I'm too busy living life vaccinated and Covid free! Selfish people suck!


Robbing a bank involves risk, crossing the street involves risk, driving a vehicle involves risk, etc..   We choose what is best for us and our life.  You are busy living life vaccinated and Covid free and others are busy living life unvaccinated and Covid free.  I respect your opinion that not getting vaccinated is selfish but pushing others to get vaccinated is just as selfish.  Each of us do what is best for us and our health.  The booster shot will be coming soon for those that has been vaccinated.. I am sure they did not see that coming.  However, again we do what is best for us and our health.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> View attachment 179480


YIKES.....LOL.  If I faced that getting ready to get the vaccine, I would run fast the other way..


----------



## Ladybj

Brookswood said:


> The schools will be a big test.   If schools are closed again and we are back to the awful online classrooms, I think a lot of parents will not be happy with those who refuse  the vaccine, but still want to be out and about at work, in stores, at the public library, at restaurants, etc. while risking spreading the virus to others.    They can't have their rights while ignoring the rights of others to things like a safe work place and a good education.   If kids get sick because of non vaccinated adults....   Look out.
> 
> IMO, as corona virus continues to take its grim toll of  non vaccinated people, I think more and more of them will decide to get vaccinated.


IMO..  The covid vaccine was not enough.. now they are coming out with the booster shot.  That is a deciding factor with some people to not get the vaccine.


----------



## Brookswood

Ladybj said:


> IMO..  The covid vaccine was not enough.. now they are coming out with the booster shot.  That is a deciding factor with some people to not get the vaccine.


It may be a factor to some, but IMO, not getting vaccinated because a booster may be  required is a flawed decision.  

Certainly the vaccine is not enough to completely protect us from Covid. But, so far it has shown to be enough to protect most people from serious illness, hospitalization and maybe death.   That's a huge plus.   Not getting the vaccine because it's not perfect (something no knowledgeable person would claim), does not make sense to me.    

Never let the perfect become the enemy of the good.


----------



## Brookswood

Security is never perfect. What it does is increase the skill level and power needed to do something bad that hurts others.   Security reduces the number of bad guys who can take the opportunity to hurt the rest of us. And, yes, sometimes its a pain in the rear end for the good guys and gals.    We have to lock our homes up when we leave, watch where we park our cars, carry a bunch of keys, pass cards and other paraphernalia.   If we forget our password, it's more work.   But, we do it because the cost of letting one bad guy get into our home, steal our car, or raid our bank account is so very very high.

I got vaccinated because the cost of getting a serious case of Covid is very high. I know several people in their 40's to 60's who got Covid and were laid up in bed for weeks.  One younger guy in his 30's spent a week in the hospital, and months after is still suffering some  minor ill effects.  Thankfully, I have not known personally anybody who has perished.  But, I have friends who have, so I take that seriously also.

That's why I got vaccinated and wear a mask (which I really don't care to do). And that is why I will get a booster if and when it is offered.  I am doing everything I can to protect myself and the others I love.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

What I don't understand is the resistance to wearing a mask. Come on, let's be realistic. wearing a mask in public is not akin to  inhumane torture. It's a  freaken paper mask, for God's sake.. And, even if there was only a slight chance of saving one person's life by wearing it, isn't the mere discomfort worth it?  With "rights' come obligations stemming from those rights. Don't you have a duty to ensure  using your "rights" doesn't harm others?


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> I imagine that it’s only a mater of time before someone here, who throws insults and thinks that they’re smarter than everyone else, comes down with a case of Covid. And when that happens I imagine that at least one or two of those who didn’t choose to get vaccinated before might reconsider but then again too, maybe they won’t. So be it. I don’t wish anyone bad luck, I love you all but I will say this, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. A person can be led to knowledge but no one can make them think. Be as spiteful and all knowing as you like. Pretty soon that ball will drop in one of those spots as the wheel spins down … Will it be YOUR number it drops into or maybe your co-horts ? I don’t know and I don’t wish you badly but I can’t make you think. You’ll live with your choices or possibly die or worse, cause some other innocent soul to die. Just because you knew what you know. John 11:35


----------



## Butterfly

Ladybj said:


> IMO..  The covid vaccine was not enough.. now they are coming out with the booster shot.  That is a deciding factor with some people to not get the vaccine.



What is the big deal about the booster shot?  Many vaccines require a booster at some point in time.  

Why in the world would the requirement for a booster be a deciding for anyone refusing the vaccine?


----------



## Don M.

Ladybj said:


> IMO..  The covid vaccine was not enough.. now they are coming out with the booster shot.  That is a deciding factor with some people to not get the vaccine.



There have been "booster shots" for the flu....for years.  As this virus mutates, it is quite reasonable that there will be "boosters" needed to try to control its spread.


----------



## Aneeda72

CNN says the booster shots should be available Sept 20, I’ll try and be first in line


----------



## Irwin

Butterfly said:


> What is the big deal about the booster shot?  Many vaccines require a booster at some point in time.
> 
> Why in the world would the requirement for a booster be a deciding for anyone refusing the vaccine?


It's just another excuse people will use to not get vaccinated.

King Soopers (Kroger's) will be administering booster shots to people who are eligible, so that will be easier than what we went through to get our first two shots. We drove quite a ways to get them and then waited in line, so it took a good 1-1/2 hours. I could see how that could have been a major inconvenience for people who were working full time.


----------



## Alligatorob

Aneeda72 said:


> CNN says the booster shots should be available Sept 20, I’ll try and be first in line


They already are in Utah, my sister-in-law got one last week at Walmart.  Just sign up online.


----------



## Aneeda72

Alligatorob said:


> They already are in Utah, my sister-in-law got one last week at Walmart.  Just sign up online.


I am waiting the six month period which was recommended


----------



## WheatenLover

My ex-husband (we have been divorced for 35 years) refuses to wear a mask or to get vaccinated because "covid is a hoax". He lives with one of his daughters. She has a 9 year old son. This puts the daughter between a rock and a hard place. My ex is 77 years old, doesn't have enough social security income to support himself, and has various physical ailments. The waiting list for senior housing is several years. If his daughter throws him out, he will have to live on the street. She won't do that. I would.

He also believes that Medbed will be available any day now. It's a contraption that completely heals your body and reverse-ages you by 30-35 years. 

I think he has something wrong with him. Medbed and covid-hoax are not the only whacky things he believes in.


----------



## JimBob1952

I really dislike wearing a mask.  (I'm fully vaccinated btw).  My feeling is that if it's so dangerous to be someplace that you need to wear a mask, then it would be less dangerous not to be there at all.  So I mainly don't go anywhere indoors.   

I also feel totally betrayed by the CDC.  My understanding was that full vaccine = no mask.  I just went to the local library and couldn't go in because of a recently reinstated mask rule.  So I dropped the books through the outside slot and came home.  I respect everyone's right to post a "please wear a mask" sign.  I just go away instead.


----------



## win231

JimBob1952 said:


> I really dislike wearing a mask.  (I'm fully vaccinated btw).  My feeling is that if it's so dangerous to be someplace that you need to wear a mask, then it would be less dangerous not to be there at all.  So I mainly don't go anywhere indoors.
> 
> I also feel totally betrayed by the CDC.  My understanding was that full vaccine = no mask.  I just went to the local library and couldn't go in because of a recently reinstated mask rule.  So I dropped the books through the outside slot and came home.  I respect everyone's right to post a "please wear a mask" sign.  I just go away instead.


As I suspected from the beginning, the _"Get vaccinated = no mask"_ was a ploy to get everyone vaccinated to sell more vaccines - much like the other nonsensical vaccine incentives like free tacos, free rides on a ferris wheel & cash drawings.
A doctor I saw before Covid vaccines were available said to me, _"Well, when we're all vaccinated, we can get rid of these silly masks."_
I just laughed.


----------



## Sunny

Ladybj said:


> IMO..  The covid vaccine was not enough.. now they are coming out with the booster shot.  That is a deciding factor with some people to not get the vaccine.


Ye gads, what is so awful about a booster shot?  One more bit of fear-inspiring nonsense?  Many of the vaccines for other diseases require boosters. Most of us get them as required; I've never heard of anyone making a big stink about it. 

If they originally thought, or at least hoped, that the vaccine alone would be enough, that masks would no longer be necessary, etc,., it's because this virus is so new that we are largely fighting it blindly. We have a vaccine that seems to work amazingly well, so far. That's good. It doesn't confer 100% lifelong immunity?  That's not so good, but we've got to do the best we can with what we've got.


----------



## Aneeda72

I spoke to a neighbor yesterday.  Her child started kindergarten and on the first day a teacher discovered she had Covid-19 .  All the children had to stay home seven days as they were exposed during lunch when they all had their masks off.

The neighbor and her husband and her two other children had to quarantine since they had not gotten vaccinated.  Her high schoolers and her second grader missed school as well, but the parents both work from home.

After the seventh day, they all had to get tested for COVID-19 before anyone could return to normal life.  Imagine the parents surprise when they realized the flu they had months back must have been COVID-19, since they have the antibodies to the virus.

She was so sick, she said, that she has now decided to get vaccinated.  . As soon as she can find the particular vaccine she prefers, she will.


----------



## Devi

Aneeda72 said:


> Imagine the parents surprise when they realized the flu they had months back must have been COVID-19, since they have the antibodies to the virus.


But that's the thing — if they've had it (and the antibodies do prove it), there's no reason to get vaccinated. From what I've read, having had Covid-19 gives one what they call "natural immunity" which apparently is better than a vaccination.


----------



## Aneeda72

Devi said:


> But that's the thing — if they've had it (and the antibodies do prove it), there's no reason to get vaccinated. From what I've read, having had Covid-19 gives one what they call "natural immunity" which apparently is better than a vaccination.


Yes, but it doesn’t last.  The antibodies were low but there


----------



## Brookswood

Advice on getting the vaccine after having Covid:

https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/12235-i-have-had-covid-why-should-i-get-vaccinated


> Q: If I have had COVID, should I still get vaccinated?​
> Watch UAB’s Michael Saag, M.D., explain how vaccines work against the Delta variant.
> 
> *A:* Absolutely. Even before vaccines were available, we were seeing not a small number of reinfections in young people who had previously been infected.
> 
> 
> We are not surprised by this because, when you get COVID-19, your body does make antibodies; but those antibodies are not enough to keep you safe in the long run.
> 
> 
> Remember, COVID-19 is a common cold virus that has gone crazy, and you know you are not immune to the common cold, unfortunately. So, if you have had COVID-19, you are vulnerable to getting it again, and getting the Delta strain.
> 
> 
> Q: Which vaccine should I get?​
> *A:* It does not really matter which vaccine you get. You can get one of the mRNA vaccines such as Moderna or Pfizer, or you can get the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
> 
> 
> They are all working well against the Delta variant, which is the one we are most worried about.





> if you were treated with a monoclonal antibody or convalescent plasma when you had COVID-19, then you should wait 90 days.


----------



## Jennina

Devi said:


> From what I've read, having had Covid-19 gives one what they call "natural immunity" which apparently is better than a vaccination.


Would you mind sharing the link where you got this info? I know someone who's had Covid and isn't vaccinated.


----------



## win231

Devi said:


> But that's the thing — if they've had it (and the antibodies do prove it), there's no reason to get vaccinated. From what I've read, having had Covid-19 gives one what they call "natural immunity" which apparently is better than a vaccination.


That's the only possible explanation for my experience with the flu.
I had the flu 38 years ago.  After I recovered, I cared for several friends & family who had the flu.  I also worked in places that had no sick pay, so employees who couldn't afford to stay home came to work sick.  Some had the flu & they spent the whole day with their heads resting on their desks.  I've never had the flu since (any strain)  I've never had a flu shot.  I doubt that's "Luck" or a "Miracle."


----------



## Jennina

WheatenLover said:


> . If his daughter throws him out, he will have to live on the street. She won't do that. I would.


----------



## Devi

Jennina said:


> Would you mind sharing the link where you got this info? I know someone who's had Covid and isn't vaccinated.


Here are a couple of links:

*Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?*
"Coronavirus patients who recovered from the virus were far less likely to become infected during the latest wave of the pandemic than people who were vaccinated against COVID, according to numbers presented to the Israeli Health Ministry."
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762
*
A Victory for Natural Immunity and Sanity*
https://spectator.org/a-victory-for-natural-immunity-and-sanity/

I also happen to be one of those people who almost never get sick. Haven't had a cold for over 40 years. I get the flu maybe every ... 18 years. Oh well.


----------



## Warrigal

Interesting points being made. I remember learning that milk maids seemed to be immune to smallpox because they had all contracted cowpox from the cows. Jenner used this idea to develop a vaccine (from vacca, the Latin word for cow) that was effective in immunising people against a deadly disease.

The trouble with natural immunity is that it requires you to have survived a particular disease. I assume that if you actually recovered from smallpox they you were relatively safe from it for many years. If you didn't survive, and many didn't, you never get it again. Covid is no different.

One aspect of viruses that has only recently come to light is that the disease disappears but the virus can still exist somewhere in the body and many years later it can again manifest as active disease. People who survived polio as children can find the disease returns decades later, chicken pox can return as shingles and viral tuberculosis can reactivate in old age as it did for my grandfather.

As a child I was immunised against polio and TB and these diseases are now nonexistent in Australia. I had chicken pox, like many children of my generation, and Hubby some years ago had the misfortune to develop shingles which is caused by the chicken pox virus. It isn't life threatening but can do serious nerve damage. A few years ago I decided that was a risk I didn't want to take so I asked my GP for the shingles vaccine.

Today most children are routinely immunised against diseases that I never heard of when my kids were young and for others like measles and mumps. We are yet to see what difference this makes to their old age  but we must remember that immunology is moving forward all the time. There are no guarantees of 100% protection but when a disease if highly infectious, deadly for some and with long term debilitation for many more, vaccination is the best option we have.

Out of curiosity, how many people would refuse a tetanus shot for a serious puncture wound or rabies injections after a bite by a wild animal?


----------



## Shero

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/4...s-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent


----------



## win231

Warrigal said:


> Interesting points being made. I remember learning that milk maids seemed to be immune to smallpox because they had all contracted cowpox from the cows. Jenner used this idea to develop a vaccine (from vacca, the Latin word for cow) that was effective in immunising people against a deadly disease.
> 
> The trouble with natural immunity is that it requires you to have survived a particular disease. I assume that if you actually recovered from smallpox they you were relatively safe from it for many years. If you didn't survive, and many didn't, you never get it again. Covid is no different.
> 
> One aspect of viruses that has only recently come to light is that the disease disappears but the virus can still exist somewhere in the body and many years later it can again manifest as active disease. People who survived polio as children can find the disease returns decades later, chicken pox can return as shingles and viral tuberculosis can reactivate in old age as it did for my grandfather.
> 
> As a child I was immunised against polio and TB and these diseases are now nonexistent in Australia. I had chicken pox, like many children of my generation, and Hubby some years ago had the misfortune to develop shingles which is caused by the chicken pox virus. It isn't life threatening but can do serious nerve damage. A few years ago I decided that was a risk I didn't want to take so I asked my GP for the shingles vaccine.
> 
> Today most children are routinely immunised against diseases that I never heard of when my kids were young and for others like measles and mumps. We are yet to see what difference this makes to their old age  but we must remember that immunology is moving forward all the time. There are no guarantees of 100% protection but when a disease if highly infectious, deadly for some and with long term debilitation for many more, vaccination is the best option we have.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how many people would refuse a tetanus shot for a serious puncture wound or rabies injections after a bite by a wild animal?


I've never had a tetanus shot.  I've had several serious puncture wounds.
I've read up on Rabies because I feed Raccoons every night & needed to know the risks.  Whether or not I chose Rabies shots would depend on how the animal was acting.  An animal cannot transmit Rabies unless they're showing signs of Rabies; one sign being they're unable to eat.


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## Devi

Interesting, @Warrigal. Fair points.  Here's something else [bolded for emphasis in original]:

Former Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Scott Gottlieb, who is a Pfizer board member, noted that *“natural immunity” gained from a prior COVID-19 infection needs to be included in discussions about policies and mandates.*​​*“The balance of the evidence demonstrates that natural immunity confers a durable protection,” Gottlieb said during a Monday morning TV interview, referring to a landmark new preprint Israeli study that found prior COVID-19 infection confers much more protection against the virus than any vaccine.*​“It’s fair to conclude that,” he said.​
It looks like there's reason for hope in different ways.


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## Aneeda72

Warrigal said:


> Interesting points being made. I remember learning that milk maids seemed to be immune to smallpox because they had all contracted cowpox from the cows. Jenner used this idea to develop a vaccine (from vacca, the Latin word for cow) that was effective in immunising people against a deadly disease.
> 
> The trouble with natural immunity is that it requires you to have survived a particular disease. I assume that if you actually recovered from smallpox they you were relatively safe from it for many years. If you didn't survive, and many didn't, you never get it again. Covid is no different.
> 
> One aspect of viruses that has only recently come to light is that the disease disappears but the virus can still exist somewhere in the body and many years later it can again manifest as active disease. People who survived polio as children can find the disease returns decades later, chicken pox can return as shingles and viral tuberculosis can reactivate in old age as it did for my grandfather.
> 
> As a child I was immunised against polio and TB and these diseases are now nonexistent in Australia. I had chicken pox, like many children of my generation, and Hubby some years ago had the misfortune to develop shingles which is caused by the chicken pox virus. It isn't life threatening but can do serious nerve damage. A few years ago I decided that was a risk I didn't want to take so I asked my GP for the shingles vaccine.
> 
> Today most children are routinely immunised against diseases that I never heard of when my kids were young and for others like measles and mumps. We are yet to see what difference this makes to their old age  but we must remember that immunology is moving forward all the time. There are no guarantees of 100% protection but when a disease if highly infectious, deadly for some and with long term debilitation for many more, vaccination is the best option we have.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how many people would refuse a tetanus shot for a serious puncture wound or rabies injections after a bite by a wild animal?


Most people in the USA get a tetanus shot routinely every, I think, ten years.  As for rabies, one of my great grandfathers died of rabies before the shots were available so yup, I’d get the shots which are very painful as I understand it.


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## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> I've never had a tetanus shot.  I've had several serious puncture wounds.
> I've read up on Rabies because I feed Raccoons every night & needed to know the risks.  Whether or not I chose Rabies shots would depend on how the animal was acting.  An animal cannot transmit Rabies unless they're showing signs of Rabies; one sign being they're unable to eat.


I thought it was unable to drink.  It’s not puncture wounds so much as what you’ve been punctured by is my understanding.  The tetanus shot prevents lockjaw.


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## Warrigal

Tetanus pathogens live in soil. A surface wound can be easily washed out but a deep puncture wound can introduce tetanus which thrives in the absence of  oxygen. Rusty garden tools, a bite from a canine tooth or an accident with a nail gun can all result in tetanus infection. One of my great uncles, who was a farm worker, died of tetanus at the age of 22. His death certificate says he died of lockjaw. Sadly, there was no information about his parents on the certificate because he couldn't speak and no-one in that country town knew very much about him. A lonely and painful death.


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## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> I thought it was unable to drink.  It’s not puncture wounds so much as what you’ve been punctured by is my understanding.  The tetanus shot prevents lockjaw.


Yes, they'd be unable to eat or drink.  And they would not be moving or walking normally, either.


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## Ladybj

Sunny said:


> Ye gads, what is so awful about a booster shot?  One more bit of fear-inspiring nonsense?  Many of the vaccines for other diseases require boosters. Most of us get them as required; I've never heard of anyone making a big stink about it.
> 
> If they originally thought, or at least hoped, that the vaccine alone would be enough, that masks would no longer be necessary, etc,., it's because this virus is so new that we are largely fighting it blindly. We have a vaccine that seems to work amazingly well, so far. That's good. It doesn't confer 100% lifelong immunity?  That's not so good, but we've got to do the best we can with what we've got.


When it comes to people's health and their decision, it is not nonsense.  Some can say taking the vaccine and booster shot is nonsense.  When it comes to my health and what is best for ME - I can make a HUGE PILE OF STINK  The vaccine work well for some but not all people. As I say, people do what is best for them and their health.


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## Ladybj

win231 said:


> As I suspected from the beginning, the _"Get vaccinated = no mask"_ was a ploy to get everyone vaccinated to sell more vaccines - much like the other nonsensical vaccine incentives like free tacos, free rides on a ferris wheel & cash drawings.
> A doctor I saw before Covid vaccines were available said to me, _"Well, when we're all vaccinated, we can get rid of these silly masks."_
> I just laughed.


Win - One day in the future, someone will be coming out with a book and a movie about Covid-19 and Vaccines.  I would not doubt if they both are already in the making.  This will be someone that...well, I will stop there.  We all do what is best for us.


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## Ladybj

win231 said:


> That's the only possible explanation for my experience with the flu.
> I had the flu 38 years ago.  After I recovered, I cared for several friends & family who had the flu.  I also worked in places that had no sick pay, so employees who couldn't afford to stay home came to work sick.  Some had the flu & they spent the whole day with their heads resting on their desks.  I've never had the flu since (any strain)  I've never had a flu shot.  I doubt that's "Luck" or a "Miracle."


I had the flu shot (over 30 years ago) and it literally gave me the flu - I was sick for several days.  I vowed never to take it again.  If Covid was out back then, I have no doubt they would have dx me with Covid-19.  Same here, I have worked in places with people coming to work with the flu - I haven't had it thus far.  But one thing I can say about the flu vaccine, you know that there is a strain of the flu in the vaccine to help fight off the flu - but Covid vaccine??


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## win231

Ladybj said:


> I had the flu shot (over 30 years ago) and it literally gave me the flu - I was sick for several days.  I vowed never to take it again.  If Covid was out back then, I have no doubt they would have dx me with Covid-19.  Same here, I have worked in places with people coming to work with the flu - I haven't had it thus far.  But one thing I can say about the flu vaccine, you know that there is a strain of the flu in the vaccine to help fight off the flu - but Covid vaccine??


My sister also stopped getting flu shots, even though her doctor strongly advised getting it "Because you're diabetic."
But after being sick at home for 2 weeks after each flu shot, she said, "Screw this."
We're constantly programmed to listen to our doctors without thinking.


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## Brookswood

Flu shots never bothered me. But, I had got out of the habit of getting them.   I had not had one for years and then the grandkids arrived and they are hard to avoid.     For the first time in over a decade I was sick with the flu for a good week.  I felt terrible.   After that happened, about five years ago, I started getting the flu shots. So far, no more flu.

Thankfully, the yearly flu is not nearly as fatal as Covid.


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## Brookswood

Flu shots, not flue shots.  I can't get the spelling right for some reason.


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## Ladybj

win231 said:


> My sister also stopped getting flu shots, even though her doctor strongly advised getting it "Because you're diabetic."
> But after being sick at home for 2 weeks after each flu shot, she said, "Screw this."
> We're constantly programmed to listen to our doctors without thinking.


Its good your sister know her body better than her doctor.  I was told I had some type of ailment..to put it mildly but that was not the case. Thank goodness, I know my body better than a doctor.  I would have been put one some HORRIBLE medication if I would have followed doctors orders and I am doing just fine...and that was many years ago.


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## Ladybj

Brookswood said:


> Flu shots never bothered me. But, I had got out of the habit of getting them.   I had not had one for years and then the grandkids arrived and they are hard to avoid.     For the first time in over a decade I was sick with the flu for a good week.  I felt terrible.   After that happened, about five years ago, I started getting the flu shots. So far, no more flu.
> 
> Thankfully, the yearly flu is not nearly as fatal as Covid.


For some people it is.  Depends on your immune system.  The flu can have you down and out for days..just as Covid.   JMO but I think they go hand in hand.  Covid took over..therefore people are not dx with the flu or pneumonia anymore - its Covid.  If anyone around you cough or sneeze.. automatically, they think do they have Covid...


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## Shero

Ladybj said:


> I had the flu shot (over 30 years ago) and it literally gave me the flu - I was sick for several days.  I vowed never to take it again.  If Covid was out back then, I have no doubt they would have dx me with Covid-19.  Same here, I have worked in places with people coming to work with the flu - I haven't had it thus far.  But one thing I can say about the flu vaccine, you know that there is a strain of the flu in the vaccine to help fight off the flu - but Covid vaccine??


_*I had the flu shot (over 30 years ago) and it literally gave me the flu says Ladybj*_
That is what it is supposed to do, it gives the flu, then builds up your immunity. Have you considered you may be also a carrier?


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## Ladybj

Shero said:


> _*I had the flu shot (over 30 years ago) and it literally gave me the flu says Ladybj*_
> That is what it is supposed to do, it gives the flu, then builds up your immunity. Have you considered you may be also a carrier?


That I do understand.. I WILL NOT take the flu shot again.  Does the Covid vaccine have the virus and give people Covid?  Is that what it is suppose to do....build up your immunity against Covid?  I don't think I am a carrier.  Have not passed the flu on to anyone. No one in my family nor friends contacted the flu.


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## Warrigal

Brookswood said:


> Flu shots never bothered me. But, I had got out of the habit of getting them.   I had not had one for years and then the grandkids arrived and they are hard to avoid.     For the first time in over a decade I was sick with the flu for a good week.  I felt terrible.   After that happened, about five years ago, I started getting the flu shots. So far, no more flu.
> 
> Thankfully, the yearly flu is not nearly as fatal as Covid.


I didn't bother with influenza vaccines when I was younger. I probably had only come down with the 'flu twice before in my life - once as a child and once as an adult. I usually had heavy colds roughly twice a year and the two infections are very different. 

I am old now and continuously getting older. 'Flu often comes with pneumonia and the combination of both together can be deadly for seniors. A dear friend of mine who was very fit for his age died this way and that was when I decided to follow my doctor's advice. I now front up for 'flu and pneumonia vaccinations when he tells me it is time. 

One point about vaccines. Viruses mutate and older vaccines are less effective over time. Also, sometimes a vaccine developed for a particular strain won't work for a different version of a disease. I'm not sure what the situation is today but hepatitis is a case in point. I was immunised against Hep A before travelling overseas. The disease is carried by flies and deposited on food. Sometimes called the "dirty hand" disease because people who don't wash their hands after going to the toilet can spread it. It can exist in tap water which is why we avoided salads and iced drinks. Hep C was a very different disease. It is contracted via the blood and other bodily fluids. Dirty needles and unprotected sex is the main method of transmission. At the time of our travels there was no vaccine for Hep C but I knew that we were safe unless we needed a blood transfusion.


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## Aneeda72

Ladybj said:


> Win - One day in the future, someone will be coming out with a book and a movie about Covid-19 and Vaccines.  I would not doubt if they both are already in the making.  This will be someone that...well, I will stop there.  We all do what is best for us.


There are already movies on a run away virus .  I refuse to watch any of them


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## Aneeda72

Ladybj said:


> For some people it is.  Depends on your immune system.  The flu can have you down and out for days..just as Covid.   JMO but I think they go hand in hand.  Covid took over..therefore people are not dx with the flu or pneumonia anymore - its Covid.  If anyone around you cough or sneeze.. automatically, they think do they have Covid...


My husband recently had non Covid pneumonia and was diagnoses with it.  He had it for weeks, probably still does.


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## Jennina

Devi said:


> Here are a couple of links:
> 
> *Natural infection vs vaccination: Which gives more protection?*
> "Coronavirus patients who recovered from the virus were far less likely to become infected during the latest wave of the pandemic than people who were vaccinated against COVID, according to numbers presented to the Israeli Health Ministry."
> https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762
> 
> *A Victory for Natural Immunity and Sanity*
> https://spectator.org/a-victory-for-natural-immunity-and-sanity/
> 
> I also happen to be one of those people who almost never get sick. Haven't had a cold for over 40 years. I get the flu maybe every ... 18 years. Oh well.



Thanks for sending the links. Please note this is not an attack on you as a person. If anything, it's an attack on the articles. 

1) Both Israel National News (centrist) and Spectator (right wing) claim  immunity is better than vaccination.

2) Israel National News says Health Ministry *experts are divided on the issue. *

3) Paul Kengor (Spectator writer) who is *not a medical expert* and  whose seeming  hatred for vaxxers is palpable is certain natural immunity is better than vaccination. 

4) Both articles failed to mention a caveat:  that to get natural immunity you have to be infected by the virus and in the process you could die or have the virus wreak havoc in your system. 

5) Kengor inadvertently weakened his position when he talked about his friend who  had Covid. 

"Tom had a terrible bout of COVID. I feared he would die. He was lucky to get through it,"

His friend ALMOST DIED and he was LUCKY to have survived.  No mention of what the virus did to his body but it was a severe case so it's safe to assume the virus did some damage --- usually it's  the lungs  and the heart.  Now, he has natural immunity. Yay! 

6)  WHO's chief scientist  Dr. Soumya Swaminathan explains why vaccines are recommended for those who have had the virus: 

"After getting COVID, people do get an immune response, but this varies from person to person and it depends on whether you had a mild infection or whether you had more severe infection. And we know from many studies now that if you've had a very mild or asymptomatic infection, then many people may have very low levels of antibodies that they form. So this is why we still recommend that even if you've had COVID infection, that you should go ahead and take the vaccination when it's available to you, because the vaccine then serves as a boost to the immune system

I heard a good analogy for vaccines and Covid.  Vaccines are like missiles with specific targets. It tells your cells to produce certain proteins that stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies.  The Covid virus however is like a bomb going off in your immune system.  Anything goes. 

PS Like you, I don't get sick often. I don't think I've ever had the flu.


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## Devi

Got it. You wanted links; I searched, found some and posted them. You needn't do anything in particular with them.


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## suds00

prior to the vaccine rollout in late 2020 the virus was killing a higher percentage of those infected than those who die now. that is why the vaccine was not tested as extensively as some past vaccines.  cures were not forthcoming. medical people were desperate for answers. the vaccine is regarded as safe and effective .the vaccine has passed the test in "real" life.


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## squatting dog

Fear will always lead to oppression!

If you want another lockdown, you can stay home for 6 months, no going out at all, using amazon for everything you need.
Let us “stupid freedom lovers” kill each other off with virus, as that’s what you think will happen, then you can come back out when the dust settles.
But remember... History’s dustbin of failed societies is filled with despots promising safety and security at the ultimate price of liberty and freedom.

Freedom has never been free.
We’ve been living off the fumes of liberty lit by brave, righteous individuals. The future looks dark, unless more people are brave enough to stand in the cold alone and light more flames. The night is dark and full of terrors.


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## suds00

there is a happy medium.


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## Tom 86

I talk with my P.C. Dr. also my Pulmonary Dr.  They both tell me to never get another Conav-19 shot since this one in Jan. dang near put me 6 ft under.  
They BOTH tell me to try & not wear a mask for more than 5 minutes at a time.  As I get CO2 poisoning & can pass out.   So when I go into Dr's offices or hospitals for tests & put on my mask, but every 5 min. I pull the bottom up to get fresh air.  99% of nurses know that older people don't have the lung capacity of young kids so they even tell me to take it off for short while.


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## Aneeda72

Tom 86 said:


> I talk with my P.C. Dr. also my Pulmonary Dr.  They both tell me to never get another Conav-19 shot since this one in Jan. dang near put me 6 ft under.
> They BOTH tell me to try & not wear a mask for more than 5 minutes at a time.  As I get CO2 poisoning & can pass out.   So when I go into Dr's offices or hospitals for tests & put on my mask, but every 5 min. I pull the bottom up to get fresh air.  99% of nurses know that older people don't have the lung capacity of young kids so they even tell me to take it off for short while.


I once asked my doctor, while in her office, if I could take my mask off-she practically screamed no at me.  . She is vaccinated, I am vaccinated and I am more at risk from her than she is from me.

But, I left my mask on, she is older but younger than me.  Still, I didn’t want her to have a stroke over it.


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## squatting dog




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## Sunny

Hey, Squatting, there are lots of "choices" like that.

Example: You are assembling all the equipment you need to manufacture poison gas in your apartment in a building with thousands of residents. The police warn you that you have a choice to dismantle all that stuff and never dare to make poison gas, or be arrested.  

Your choice.  But oh dear, the police are taking away your freedom!


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## squatting dog

Sunny said:


> Hey, Squatting, there are lots of "choices" like that.
> 
> Example: You are assembling all the equipment you need to manufacture poison gas in your apartment in a building with thousands of residents. The police warn you that you have a choice to dismantle all that stuff and never dare to make poison gas, or be arrested.
> 
> Your choice.  But oh dear, the police are taking away your freedom!


Pffffft... apples and oranges but, I wouldn't expect anything less.  Cheers


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## suds00

squatting dog said:


> Pffffft... apples and oranges but, I wouldn't expect anything less.  Cheers


you are doing the same. no one is taking anything from you. have a good day!


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## squatting dog

suds00 said:


> you are doing the same. no one is taking anything from you. have a good day!


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## Sunny

Squatting, nice picture of you.  And it explains a lot.


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## Becky1951

squatting dog said:


> View attachment 182853


Great pic! Clearly shows which end is left up ready to kick. So glad some of us don't have sand in our ears.


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## squatting dog

Sunny said:


> Squatting, nice picture of you.  And it explains a lot.


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## Irwin

Some people are afraid of the covid-19 virus and others are afraid of getting vaccinated. I'm in the former (the afraid of the virus) camp since I trust science. While not perfect, vaccines are generally safe for all but a very small percentage of recipients.

It's kind of like a home invasion by thugs (the virus) and protecting yourself with firearms (the vaccine). While accidents can happen with a gun, you're far more likely to survive if you protect yourself. If you're afraid of guns, you're at the mercy of the thugs.

I'm protected. While I don't especially like having a firearm in the house, there's some comfort in knowing that if it's needed, it's there. I'm also fully vaccinated and wear a facemask when I'm around people outside my house. I'll be damned if I'm going to die needlessly from a virus.


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## suds00

squatting dog said:


> View attachment 182864


class will out


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## win231

Irwin said:


> Some people are afraid of the covid-19 virus and others are afraid of getting vaccinated. I'm in the former (the afraid of the virus) camp since I trust science. While not perfect, vaccines are generally safe for all but a very small percentage of recipients.
> 
> It's kind of like a home invasion by thugs (the virus) and protecting yourself with firearms (the vaccine). While accidents can happen with a gun, you're far more likely to survive if you protect yourself. If you're afraid of guns, you're at the mercy of the thugs.
> 
> I'm protected. While I don't especially like having a firearm in the house, there's some comfort in knowing that if it's needed, it's there. I'm also fully vaccinated and wear a facemask when I'm around people outside my house.


Except for one big difference. _* You*_ decide what a gun does. * The Covid vaccine* decides what it does.


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## Nosy Bee-54

Irwin said:


> Some people are afraid of the covid-19 virus and others are afraid of getting vaccinated. I'm in the former (the afraid of the virus) camp since I trust science. While not perfect, vaccines are generally safe for all but a very small percentage of recipients.
> 
> It's kind of like a home invasion by thugs (the virus) and protecting yourself with firearms (the vaccine). While accidents can happen with a gun, you're far more likely to survive if you protect yourself. If you're afraid of guns, you're at the mercy of the thugs.
> 
> I'm protected. While I don't especially like having a firearm in the house, there's some comfort in knowing that if it's needed, it's there. I'm also fully vaccinated and wear a facemask when I'm around people outside my house. I'll be damned if I'm going to die needlessly from a virus.


Same here with vaccinations. I was afraid of shingles. Read several stories about what people went through with nerve damage, severe itching and pain. So I got the Zostavax at 60. About 5 years later, CDC recommended a new vaccine Shingrix. Efficacy of the former is 50-64% and the latter is 97%. Since I believe in science, I got the latter as a booster so to speak. Being vaccinated, I no longer fear shingles.

As for firearms, I don't like them and would not knowingly allow a relative or a friend to bring one into my home.


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