# Afghan Evacuationl; the US Soldier's Perspective



## Murrmurr (Aug 20, 2021)

My son served In Afghanistan.
A Seabee, he helped build schools, hospitals, and of course, military structures.
Under fire, under Marine guard, he and his crew went to remote locations to repair and retrieve military vehicles.
On slow days, officers and soldiers lined up outside his 120-degree metals shop to wait while he fabricated parts for their bicycles, and installeded them.
And during down time, he and an Afghan officer shared tea and swapped stories about their families.

(misskey in the title)


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## Devi (Aug 21, 2021)

Phew. What a thing.


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## cdestroyer (Aug 21, 2021)

the afghan crap is just another piece of crap that the US got sucked into by some ego big head in Washington aided by idiot misaligned military advisors. ya we got osama, big deal! pile on the (boots on the ground) and we can win anything. didnt work now and never has. win the hearts of the people, but the people dont want to do it themselves, they want us to do it for them. why should we die for some 8*%^$#&( that wont fight for their country? we learned nothing from past history.... I am beginning to wonder if there was something oddly different about the peoples in the original colonies. Why they felt so strongly about independence that they repulsed a much larger, stronger nation and yet these countries we fight in dont seem to have the same dedication!!


sheesh!!!!


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## Irwin (Aug 21, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> My son served In Afghanistan.
> A Seabee, he helped build schools, hospitals, and of course, military structures.
> Under fire, under Marine guard, he and his crew went to remote locations to repair and retrieve military vehicles.
> On slow days, officers and soldiers lined up outside his 120-degree metals shop to wait while he fabricated parts for their bicycles, and installeded them.
> ...


We spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives in order to capture one terrorist. We're nation-building overseas when our own infrastructure is falling apart and we lag far behind the rest of the world with high speed rail. We should have tracked down Bin Laden and assassinated him, which is how we got him in the end, anyway. Or we could have gotten Israel to do it. They're very good at that sort of thing.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives in order to capture one terrorist. We're nation-building overseas when our own infrastructure is falling apart and we lag far behind the rest of the world with high speed rail. We should have tracked down Bin Laden and assassinated him, which is how we got him in the end, anyway. Or we could have gotten Israel to do it. They're very good at that sort of thing.


People forget that, while the US agreed to invest the majority of funds, military assets, and troops, this was a NATO mission, an intergovernmental military alliance between 28 European countries and 2 North American countries, and the mission was to assist the Afghan government in providing effective security across the country and develop new Afghan security forces to ensure Afghanistan would never again become a safe haven for terrorists.

Mission aborted. Objective failed.


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## cdestroyer (Aug 21, 2021)

mission aborted? after a dozen years of training? just how long does it take to train a military? after pearl harbor it took us a year to be ready why should it take longer in afghanistan or iraq for that matter... we gave them the training, the weapons(which are now in the hands of the taliban) built facilities for them and guess what? did they fight? nope!!!
people of these third world countries have been at each others throats for so long they dont know how to stop. they dont realize what it is going to take to be independent and free,but they sure want to come here!!!


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> mission aborted? after a dozen years of training? just how long does it take to train a military? after pearl harbor it took us a year to be ready why should it take longer in afghanistan or iraq for that matter... we gave them the training, the weapons(which are now in the hands of the taliban) built facilities for them and guess what? did they fight? nope!!!
> people of these third world countries have been at each others throats for so long they dont know how to stop. they dont realize what it is going to take to be independent and free,but they sure want to come here!!!


It isn't that they don't know how to stop, the conflict is one of theology, which is an endless argument. And their idea of *independent and free* is entirely different from ours.

I use the term Mission Aborted because even after 20 years the Mission was not accomplished.


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## Warrigal (Aug 21, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> mission aborted? after a dozen years of training? just how long does it take to train a military? after pearl harbor it took us a year to be ready why should it take longer in afghanistan or iraq for that matter... we gave them the training, the weapons(which are now in the hands of the taliban) built facilities for them and guess what? did they fight? nope!!!
> people of these third world countries have been at each others throats for so long they dont know how to stop. they dont realize what it is going to take to be independent and free,but they sure want to come here!!!


Depends what sort of war they are being trained for. Being trained to fight a war that is heavily dependent on air support is not very useful when the planes are not flying because no-one thought to train anyone in the servicing of said planes. It is especially useless when the trainers depart taking all of the air support with them.


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## senior chef (Aug 22, 2021)

Words just fail me. I am deeply ashamed at the incompetence of Washington.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> the afghan crap is just another piece of crap that the US got sucked into by some ego big head in Washington aided by idiot misaligned military advisors. ya we got osama, big deal! pile on the (boots on the ground) and we can win anything. didnt work now and never has. win the hearts of the people, but the people dont want to do it themselves, they want us to do it for them. why should we die for some 8*%^$#&( that wont fight for their country? we learned nothing from past history.... I am beginning to wonder if there was something oddly different about the peoples in the original colonies. Why they felt so strongly about independence that they repulsed a much larger, stronger nation and yet these countries we fight in dont seem to have the same dedication!!
> 
> 
> sheesh!!!!


You know how it feels when dark clouds part, the rains stops, and the sun shines through with its warmth? Thank you for your words.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> People forget that, while the US agreed to invest the majority of funds, military assets, and troops, this was a NATO mission, an intergovernmental military alliance between 28 European countries and 2 North American countries, and the mission was to assist the Afghan government in providing effective security across the country and develop new Afghan security forces to ensure Afghanistan would never again become a safe haven for terrorists.
> 
> Mission aborted. Objective failed.


NATO is as much of _*"an intergovernmental military alliance"*_ as is the 8 provinces of North Korea. Pyongyang tells the other provinces what to do and what to say while Washington tells the other nations what to do and what to say.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Words just fail me. I am deeply ashamed at the incompetence of Washington.


You mean the incompetence of illegally invading and occupy Afghanistan or incompetence by ending their war and allowing the boys to come home?


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> My son served In Afghanistan.
> A Seabee, he helped build schools, hospitals, and of course, military structures.
> Under fire, under Marine guard, he and his crew went to remote locations to repair and retrieve military vehicles.
> On slow days, officers and soldiers lined up outside his 120-degree metals shop to wait while he fabricated parts for their bicycles, and installeded them.
> ...


EDIT: I'm in a foul mood today.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 22, 2021)

Verisure said:


> NATO is as much of _*"an intergovernmental military alliance"*_ as is the 8 provinces of North Korea. Pyongyang tells the other provinces what to do and what to say while Washington tells the other nations what to do and what to say.


I understand you, Verisure. 

I'm aware we are little plastic parts on a massive Chutes and Ladders board, that it's rigged with far more chutes than ladders, and that the plastic pieces never get to roll the dice, they just count off the spaces they bounce on. I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on my son's love-hate relationship with his military career.

Just shy of 30 years ago, at about 4am, after being rode hard and sent home drunk, I was about to drop face-first onto my bed when I noticed the red light flashing on the message machine on my bedside table. It was Grant, my son. He was at boot camp at the time. The recording went, "Dad, I just...I just need to talk to someone. I need to talk to you, Dad." And then he started sobbing. "I've made the biggest mistake of my life, Dad." He was referring to the day he enlisted. The recording went on, Grant choking up, sobbing, bucking up, apologizing. 

It was 4am, my son was 800 miles away, and he needed me. I couldn't even feel the who-knows-how-many whiskey shots and rum 'n' Cokes at that point, just a mountain of guilt for not being there when he called. An epic fail. When I finally got a hold of him he said sorry, he was fine, don't worry about it, he'd had a bad day.

Today Grant says that enlisting in the military was hands-down the best decision he ever committed to. He could go on and on about the military–industrial complex, how soldiers are pawns and all the rest of it, but he doesn't. So I just wanted to take a moment.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I understand you, Verisure.
> 
> I'm aware we are little plastic parts on a massive Chutes and Ladders board, that it's rigged with far more chutes than ladders, and that the plastic pieces never get to roll the dice, they just count off the spaces they bounce on. I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on my son's love-hate relationship with his military career.
> 
> ...


I’m with you. I understand you. I was a son 56 years ago in a much dirtier and deadlier war than Afghanistan. So, your relationship to your son is one thing but justifying his war or mine I cannot accept, neither directly, between the lines, sublimely, nor by default.


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## cdestroyer (Aug 22, 2021)

as an aside, let me remind you that the government does not have any money... that is OUR money we paid in taxes of one form or another. The government spends it willy nilly cause how the hell else to you get 23 trillion in debt...sheesh wish my bank would let me do that! (you wanna build a bridge over what swamp?)


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## Don M. (Aug 22, 2021)

This Afghan mess reminds me of Vietnam....a huge waste of military resources, and our tax money that accomplished little or nothing.  When we bailed out of Saigon, it was left to those people to decide for themselves how they wished to be governed.  Now, the people of Afghanistan need to figure out their own future.


The U.S. needs to stop trying to police the world, IMO.  Once Bin Laden was located, and killed, our mission should have ended.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> as an aside, let me remind you that the government does not have any money... that is OUR money we paid in taxes of one form or another. ................


Why is it that so few Americans understand that?


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Don M. said:


> This Afghan mess reminds me of Vietnam....a huge waste of military resources, and our tax money that accomplished little or nothing.


I am compelled to remind you that the *"accomplishment"* you speak of is achieved in the consumption of both your *"tax money" *and those *"military resources"*. THAT is the full purpose of such wars. 


Don M. said:


> The U.S. needs to stop trying to police the world, IMO.  Once Bin Laden was located, and killed, our mission should have ended.


Once again I have to remind you that the U.S. is not policing the world. _"Policing"_ is a smokescreen explanation the government employs to get at your tax money in order to keep the corrupt Military-Industrial Complex machinery in motion. PR-ing the idea that a policing action is needed is a pure concoction with no basis in reality.


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## Devi (Aug 22, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Why is it that so few Americans understand that?


I don't think that's true at all.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 22, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I’m with you. I understand you. I was a son 56 years ago in a much dirtier and deadlier war than Afghanistan. So, your relationship to your son is one thing but justifying his war or mine I cannot accept, neither directly, between the lines, sublimely, nor by default.


I think I should elaborate, just in case there's actually a misunderstanding.

"Today Grant says that enlisting in the military was hands-down the best decision he ever committed to" - not because he's a patriot or believes the US can or should win hearts and minds or anything, but because of who his service made him. 

A few months after he got back from his first deployment to Iraq, it hit him that he needed to finally be himself. He divorced his wife, took some courses, and got the civilian career he always wanted (he was a reservist). Time had meaning to him and he started doing what he wanted with it. He doesn't care what anyone thinks of him, and even though he's sarcastic, brutally honest, and comes off as a know-it-all, he's very well-liked, even admired...by people who aren't irked by him.

He served in Iraq a second time, and in Afghanistan about 4 years before he retired. He was more *himself* every time he came back. That's what he loved about his 23 years of service. I'm super proud of him.


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## Irwin (Aug 22, 2021)

Don M. said:


> This Afghan mess reminds me of Vietnam....a huge waste of military resources, and our tax money that accomplished little or nothing.  When we bailed out of Saigon, it was left to those people to decide for themselves how they wished to be governed.  Now, the people of Afghanistan need to figure out their own future.
> 
> 
> The U.S. needs to stop trying to police the world, IMO.  Once Bin Laden was located, and killed, our mission should have ended.


We didn't kill Bin Laden until 2011 after we had already been at war for nearly 10 years, and he was hiding in Pakistan for some if not most of that time. What the U.S. did was the dumbest thing we could have done, which was invade a sovereign country just to go after one terrorist. We should have just hunted him down and killed him. Or we could have put a bounty on his head of a couple million dollars and then just waited. He would have been dead within a month.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We didn't kill Bin Laden until 2011 after we had already been at war for nearly 10 years, and he was hiding in Pakistan for some if not most of that time. What the U.S. did was the dumbest thing we could have done, which was invade a sovereign country just to go after one terrorist. We should have just hunted him down and killed him. Or we could have put a bounty on his head of a couple million dollars and then just waited. He would have been dead within a month.


Yeah, I don't even remember being told that's why we went there....to get Bin Laden. If it *is* what we were told, I didn't buy it.

The reasons I remember were to stop the Taliban and blow up radicalization camps.


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## Irwin (Aug 22, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Yeah, I don't even remember being told that's why we went there....to get Bin Laden. If it *is* what we were told, I didn't buy it.
> 
> The reasons I remember were to stop the Taliban and blow up radicalization camps.


Yeah, that's what we were told. Bush said, "We're going to get those responsible," and then we proceeded to bomb the crap out of Afghanistan. And we were going after Al Qaeda — not the Taliban, which is kind of ironic since we created Al-Qaeda when we armed the mujahedeen to fight the Soviet Union. Bin Laden was one of those "freedom fighters" in the mujahedeen that we armed.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Yeah, that's what we were told. Bush said, "We're going to get those responsible," and then we proceeded to bomb the crap out of Afghanistan. And we were going after Al Qaeda — not the Taliban, which is kind of ironic since we created Al-Qaeda when we armed the mujahedeen to fight the Soviet Union. Bin Laden was one of those "freedom fighters" in the mujahedeen that we armed.


Oh yeah, Al Qaeda.

And speaking of the Mujahedin, I'm waiting to see if we give them another go. It won't surprise me.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Devi said:


> I don't think that's true at all.


I'd like to believe that.


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## Verisure (Aug 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We didn't kill Bin Laden until 2011 after we had already been at war for nearly 10 years, and he was hiding in Pakistan for some if not most of that time. What the U.S. did was the dumbest thing we could have done, which was invade a sovereign country just to go after one terrorist. We should have just hunted him down and killed him. Or we could have put a bounty on his head of a couple million dollars and then just waited. He would have been dead within a month.


Bin Laden ought to have been brought to trial, not murdered.


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## Devi (Aug 23, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> as an aside, let me remind you that the government does not have any money... that is OUR money we paid in taxes of one form or another. The government spends it willy nilly cause how the hell else to you get 23 trillion in debt...sheesh wish my bank would let me do that! (you wanna build a bridge over what swamp?)





Verisure said:


> Why is it that so few Americans understand that?





Devi said:


> I don't think that's true at all.





Verisure said:


> I'd like to believe that.



Of course we know it. We pay taxes to the federal government. That's where they get the money. It's not exactly a big surprise.

But, believe it or don't. It's up to you.


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## senior chef (Aug 23, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We didn't kill Bin Laden until 2011 after we had already been at war for nearly 10 years, and he was hiding in Pakistan for some if not most of that time. What the U.S. did was the dumbest thing we could have done, which was invade a sovereign country just to go after one terrorist. We should have just hunted him down and killed him. *Or we could have put a bounty on his head of a couple million dollars and then just waited. He would have been dead within a month.*


We HAD a bounty on Bin Laden. A mighty big one ... 25 million dollars.


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## Verisure (Aug 23, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We didn't kill Bin Laden until 2011 after we had already been at war for nearly 10 years, and he was hiding in Pakistan for some if not most of that time. What the U.S. did was the dumbest thing we could have done, which was invade a sovereign country just to go after one terrorist. We should have just hunted him down and killed him. Or we could have put a bounty on his head of a couple million dollars and then just waited. He would have been dead within a month.


An interesting point of view.


senior chef said:


> We HAD a bounty on Bin Laden. A mighty big one ... 25 million dollars.


_Holy mackerel, Amos!_ It took 10 years for someone to collect the 25 mil bounty? It looks like Mr. bin Laden was a very popular man.


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## Irwin (Aug 23, 2021)

Verisure said:


> An interesting point of view.
> 
> _Holy mackerel, Amos!_ It took 10 years for someone to collect the 25 mil bounty? It looks like Mr. bin Laden was a very popular man.


The "bounty" was for information that would lead to his capture, and we paid out I think it was 100 million dollars before we got him. I've forgotten the exact number. If we would have offered a few million to anyone who killed him rather than for information, he probably would have been dead within a month. Then again, maybe not. Bin Laden did have his own little military to protect him.


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## Verisure (Aug 23, 2021)

Irwin said:


> The "bounty" was for information that would lead to his capture, and we paid out I think it was 100 million dollars before we got him. I've forgotten the exact number. If we would have offered a few million to anyone who killed him rather than for information, he probably would have been dead within a month. Then again, maybe not. Bin Laden did have his own little military to protect him.


It seems clear that he had something much more important than a "little military" to protect him. Needing 10 years and paying out 100 million dollars to get at him sounds like he had a world of friends who supported him despite the millions of dollars offered to rat him out.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 23, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I am compelled to remind you that the *"accomplishment"* you speak of is achieved in the consumption of both your *"tax money" *and those *"military resources"*. THAT is the full purpose of such wars.
> 
> Once again I have to remind you that the U.S. is not policing the world. _"Policing"_ is a smokescreen explanation the government employs to get at your tax money in order to keep the corrupt Military-Industrial Complex machinery in motion. PR-ing the idea that a policing action is needed is a pure concoction with no basis in reality.




"policing" - what we anti war types always called "playing God"

We've told the pro war crowd that truth often enough but they are too mindless to know it.


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## Verisure (Aug 23, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> "policing" - what we anti war types always called "playing God"
> 
> We've told the pro war crowd that truth often enough but they are too mindless to know it.


I agree wholeheartedly but I must make one slight addition. There is the *"mindless the war crowd" *and the *war-makers* (who are not mindless but determined). Yes, we *"anti-war types"* have _"told the pro war crowd that truth often enough"_ but we are only one-third of the equation. We've got to keep telling them and one by one we may succeed.


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## senior chef (Aug 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I agree wholeheartedly but I must make one slight addition. There is the *"mindless the war crowd" *and the *war-makers* (who are not mindless but determined). Yes, we *"anti-war types"* have _"told the pro war crowd that truth often enough"_ but we are only one-third of the equation. We've got to keep telling them and one by one we may succeed.


Yes, by all means. Don't go to war. Just lie down and accept whatever the Muslim radicals choose to do to you. Your last thought, as your head is separated from your body might be , "Oops, maybe I should have fought".


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## Verisure (Aug 24, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Yes, by all means. Don't go to war. Just lie down and accept whatever the Muslim radicals choose to do to you. Your last thought, as your head is separated from your body might be , "Oops, maybe I should have fought".


I haven't decided if I should let my emotions go free and laugh  or try to get serious  and lend you some insight. It's possible that you missed the most important part of my post or maybe you just skipped to the part that displeases you and didn't bother reading it in full. Take another look at what I wrote and notice that I very specifically named "*war-makers".* You know what that means, right? Or is it possible you believe that those "Muslim radicals" (as you call them) dropped out of the sky bent on mayhem with no legitimate grudge? I await your reply with great interest.


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## senior chef (Aug 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I haven't decided if I should let my emotions go free and laugh  or try to get serious  and lend you some insight. It's possible that you missed the most important part of my post or maybe you just skipped to the part that displeases you and didn't bother reading it in full. Take another look at what I wrote and notice that I very specifically named "*war-makers".* You know what that means, right? Or is it possible you believe that those "Muslim radicals" (as you call them) dropped out of the sky bent on mayhem with no legitimate grudge? I await your reply with great interest.


I don't care what their grudge is. Attack America... get your butt kicked. Period !


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## Verisure (Aug 24, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I don't care what their grudge is. Attack America... get your butt kicked. Period !


Now ain't that sumpin'.  That there is exactly what the Arabs say every time the Americans attacked them and 9/11 was a taste of what dey's talkin' bout. Do you agree?


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## Pepper (Aug 24, 2021)




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## Verisure (Aug 24, 2021)

Pepper said:


>


*"Even Jesus never forgive what you do ... "*


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I don't care what their grudge is. Attack America... get your butt kicked. Period !




The problem is that it is the USA that threw the first punch in that region.  Operation Ajax (a blatant act of imperialistic terrorism) in 1953, repeated interventions in the Lebanese civil wars, the support of Israeli expansionism into Lebanon and "settlements" while endorsing the slaughter of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila, the Bush I and Bush II colonialist wars, Abu Ghraib, Nisour Square Massacre, etc.  Hundreds of thousands have been killed because of American imperialistic aggression.  

9/11 was a shocking tragedy. Many Americans still have not fully recovered from the losses and shock caused by it (this includes me because I worked at the World Trade Center for 13 years and lost friends in that horror).  3,000 Americans died there.  Now multiply that number by 100 and you begin to get a number that represents the amount killed by American aggression. Then calculate the damage to the infrastructure of Middle Eastern lands in terms of lost capital and productivity.  By adding all this, then you can see the full extend of the problems caused by the USA and why so many people in that region are so disgusted with this country and its expansionist government.


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## Verisure (Aug 25, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The problem is that it is the USA that threw the first punch in that region.  Operation Ajax (a blatant act of imperialistic terrorism) in 1953, repeated interventions in the Lebanese civil wars, the support of Israeli expansionism into Lebanon and "settlements" while endorsing the slaughter of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila, the Bush I and Bush II colonialist wars, Abu Ghraib, Nisour Square Massacre, etc.  Hundreds of thousands have been killed because of American imperialistic aggression.
> 
> 9/11 was a shocking tragedy. Many Americans still have not fully recovered from the losses and shock caused by it (this includes me because I worked at the World Trade Center for 13 years and lost friends in that horror).  3,000 Americans died there.  Now multiply that number by 100 and you begin to get a number that represents the amount killed by American aggression. Then calculate the damage to the infrastructure of Middle Eastern lands in terms of lost capital and productivity.  By adding all this, then you can see the full extend of the problems caused by the USA and why so many people in that region are so disgusted with this country and its expansionist government.


Everything you say here is true. My only criticism is to you naming *"Ajax"*. The overthrow of the Democratic Nation of Iran under Mohammed Moseddeq in  1953 was called *"TP Ajax"*.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

Verisure said:


> TP Ajax




just as a point of information Wiki indicates  " TPAJAX Project or "Operation Ajax"   -- in all honesty, I never heard of the term TPAJAX Project.  the other term is how it's been reported on USA tv and media for years


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## Verisure (Aug 25, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> just as a point of information Wiki indicates  " TPAJAX Project or "Operation Ajax"   -- in all honesty, I never heard of the term TPAJAX Project.  the other term is how it's been reported on USA tv and media for years


I've only heard it as "Operation TP Ajax". Apparently, TP was (is?) the CIA prefix for Iran.   But hey at least we haven't confused it with Operation Mr. Clean which would be an excellent code name for restarting the US.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I've only heard it as "Operation TP Ajax". Apparently, TP was (is?) the CIA prefix for Iran.   But hey at least we haven't confused it with Operation Mr. Clean which would be an excellent code name for restarting the US.




Ok.  Whatever the case, the USA needs to GTH out of there and mind its own business.  We can't clean up our streets and highways or keep the criminal cops from spreading drugs and stomping on people's throats.  Therefore, we have no godd@mn business telling others how to run their lives.


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## Verisure (Aug 25, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Ok.  Whatever the case, the USA needs to GTH out of there and mind its own business.  We can't clean up our streets and highways or keep the criminal cops from spreading drugs and stomping on people's throats.  Therefore, we have no godd@mn business telling others how to run their lives.


Everything you say about cleaning up the streets and highways and criminal cops is all true. My only criticism is to you naming *"GTH out of there "*. I only know it as *"GTF out of there"*. And about telling others how to run their lives ... ain't it typical? The one who criticises in the loudest voice is usually guilty of the offence that he denounces.


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## Devi (Aug 25, 2021)

Verisure, you are very wrong. You may "only know it as" GTF out of there, but "GTH out of there" means "get the hell out of there", and is common usage.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

Verisure said:


> "GTF out of there"




Admittedly that sounds better but we have a polite crowd here so I thought discretion might be advisable.


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## Irwin (Aug 25, 2021)

It was then Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, who ordered the overthrow of Iran's government in 1953 to make the world safe for American oil companies. A year later, he ordered the coup in Guatemala because its government was standing up to United Fruit Co.

The Dulles Airport near Washington, D.C. is named for John Foster Dulles. 

Maybe we shouldn't be honoring people who caused so much harm in the world.


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## Pepper (Aug 25, 2021)

Excellent @Irwin!


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## Murrmurr (Aug 25, 2021)

Irwin said:


> It was then Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles, who ordered the overthrow of Iran's government in 1953 to make the world safe for American oil companies. A year later, he ordered the coup in Guatemala because its government was standing up to United Fruit Co.
> 
> The Dulles Airport near Washington, D.C. is named for John Foster Dulles.
> 
> Maybe we shouldn't be honoring people who caused so much harm in the world.


Yeah, we went and killed people for oil when we had (have) plenty here. But better to spoil a desert and kill a bunch of unfamiliar types than to argue environmental issues at home. Those kind of arguments don't get people elected.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Maybe we shouldn't be honoring people who caused so much harm in the world.




Bingo!  Same with statues that honor murderers such as Columbus, Queen Victoria, and King Leopold.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 25, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Bingo!  Same with statues that honor murderers such as Columbus, Queen Victoria, and King Leopold.


Villains should not be forgotten. 

(also, history should not be altered. that has to stop)


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 25, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Villains should not be forgotten.
> 
> (also, history should not be altered. that has to stop)



Villains are never forgotten by their victims and their descendants.  History should never be painted so as to be viewed thru rose colored glasses.


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## Pepper (Aug 25, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Villains should not be forgotten.
> 
> (also, history should not be altered. that has to stop)


That doesn't mean celebrating them either.  That's not altering.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 25, 2021)

Pepper said:


> That doesn't mean celebrating them either.  That's not altering.


Correct. And history shouldn't be a string of fairy-tales, is what I mean. The "First Thanksgiving" comes to mind. Half my 4th grade class wore paper headbands with paper feathers, and the other half wore black paper Pilgrim hats, and the Pilgrims were all like, "Hey, Chief, *thanks* for the corn! Join us for some turkey and sweet potatoes."

And new facts should = new textbooks.


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## Irwin (Aug 25, 2021)

More than 8,600 Afghans have arrived at Dulles Airport so far. That's more than a bit ironic since John Foster Dulles created so many refugees — maybe not from Afghanistan, but definitely from Iran and other countries.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...9421fa-05e7-11ec-8c3f-3526f81b233b_story.html


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## fuzzybuddy (Sep 1, 2021)

I think the problem with Afghanistan was that it was way too hard to keep, and way too  hard to let it go. There were no real good options, either way. We were damned if we didn't, and damned,  if we did. And just because we don't have boots on the ground, we still own the sky. It's security blanket. And the fact that the Taliban insurgency took over the nation with  such little resistance, the US & Allies never got the "hearts and minds" of the Afghanis.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 1, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> the fact that the Taliban insurgency took over the nation with such little resistance, the US & Allies never got the "hearts and minds" of the Afghanis.




I said it earlier and will say again,  you simply cannot win a war unless and until you get the support of the majority of the population.  The imperialistic wars of colonialist terrorism in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan failed for that reason. At no point did any of those people invite the American invaders.  They were only welcomed by power hungry elitist dictators who ruled the majority of the people like a bunch of Hitlerian tyrants. The people did not resist the Taliban because there was no incentive to do so. They stepped aside and allowed the Taliban soldiers to march into every provincial capitol because their leadership is what the majority wanted. Now it's time for the Western elites and pols who started this war to pay reparations for all the damage they caused.


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