# Up to 18 people shot at Walmart El Paso Texas



## hollydolly (Aug 3, 2019)

El Paso police are advising the public to stay away from a local Walmart because of 'multiple' active shooters. 'Scene is still Active,' El Paso police tweeted on Saturday. 'We have multiple reports of multiple shooters. Please avoid area police conducting search of a very large area. 'Media staging will be given when area is secure.' A local NBC affiliate, KTSM-TV, is reporting that at least 18 people were shot, though the extent of their injuries is uknown. 'Active Shooting Stay away from Cielo Vista Mall Area. Scene is Still Active,' the police department tweeted on Saturday. Earlier on Saturday, the police tweeted: 'Active Shooter in area of Hawkins and Gateway East.' Hawkins and Gateway are two streets that flank the Walmart. El Paso police later confirmed that the active shooter was inside a Walmart, according to USA Today. At least three other businesses in the area are also on lockdown, including a Red Lobster franchise and a Hooter's location.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ice-say-theres-active-shooter-local-mall.html


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## RadishRose (Aug 3, 2019)

I just heard a suspect MAY be in custody..... nothing else yet. No fatalities known as yet per CBSN.

Edit, Yahoo claims fatalities.


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## 911 (Aug 3, 2019)

Just saw that 1 person has been detained, but worse is that they are reporting multiple deaths.


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## AnnieA (Aug 3, 2019)

Just checked on a friend on facebook.  He's a Border Patrol agent in El Paso and thankfully is ok.


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## AnnieA (Aug 3, 2019)

El Paso local news source

Their latest update says that 10 are dead.  Two suspects, one in custody and one at large.


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## Sassycakes (Aug 3, 2019)

AnnieA said:


> El Paso local news source
> 
> Their latest update says that 10 are dead.  Two suspects, one in custody and one at large.



This is so sad ,this world is going crazy. It's pitiful to hear 10 people lost their lives.


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## RadishRose (Aug 3, 2019)

Washington Post has video but I can't access it without subscribing

From Tw
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





itter this may be the suspect


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## AnnieA (Aug 3, 2019)

That looks like the guy from WalMart's security camera that I saw earlier.  Someone screen captured that from a local news report.


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## JustBonee (Aug 3, 2019)

video inside:   ... 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/el-pas...elo-vista-mall-today-2019-08-03-live-updates/


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## Pink Biz (Aug 3, 2019)

Any chance of gun control legislation now from those spineless and brainless politicians in Washington? I predict, umm, NO. But I bet if one of their family members was a victim, there would be laws passed in a New York second. This country is barbaric.


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## RadishRose (Aug 3, 2019)

Before this turns into a gun control debate, I have no further comments.

When someone has any helpful thoughts on the mental illness crisis among our young males, I would like to hear them.


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## Liberty (Aug 3, 2019)

RadishRose said:


> Before this turns into a gun control debate, I have no further comments.
> 
> When someone has any helpful thoughts on the mental illness crisis among our young males, I would like to hear them.


You got that right Rad...mental illness understanding is the key.


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## applecruncher (Aug 3, 2019)

CNN & NBC reporting at least 19 dead, 40 injured. 

And as far as "mental illness among our young males," I don't know this suspect's age, but Las Vegas shooter who killed 58 people was 64 years old.


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## Uptosnuff (Aug 3, 2019)

I agree with the others that we need to find the ROOT cause of these killing sprees.  Are there any commonalities between all these shooters?  What is going on with them?


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## Warrigal (Aug 3, 2019)

What is this mental illness that supposedly drives some people to shoot other people in a public setting? Why does it only affect "young males"?

Another interesting question would be "What did the victims have in common?"


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## applecruncher (Aug 3, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> What is this mental illness that supposedly drives some people to shoot other people in a public setting? Why does it only affect "young males"?




"It" , whatever that means, does not only affect young males. As I just said Las Vegas shooter was 64 years old.


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## Warrigal (Aug 3, 2019)

I know AC and I do not believe that the shooters are mentally ill. Murderous intent can be quite rational. People with genuine mental illnesses tend to be self destructive or a danger to their families.


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## Pink Biz (Aug 3, 2019)

If someone thinks resolving the mental health epidemic* in the US will be a successful way to prevent gun violence, they are looking to complicate and ignore a very simple solution. Just tighten background checks, ban certain types of guns and ammo, and your'e there. The Second Amendment prevails and war artillery is kept out of the wrong hands.

* Did you know the highest rate of suicide in America is amongst white men 85 years old and over?


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## AnnieA (Aug 3, 2019)

RadishRose said:


> Before this turns into a gun control debate, I have no further comments.
> 
> When someone has any helpful thoughts on the mental illness crisis among our young males, I would like to hear them.





It's more a moral apathy.  Maybe some mental illness mixed in but much more some sort of an emotional void.    Look at what the shooter posted in 2015.  Pretty consistent with most of the young white guys that carry out these mass shootings.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/patrick-crusius/


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## 911 (Aug 3, 2019)

In 2008 and after the 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech, we had the opportunity to attend a seminar at a local university that had as main speakers a well known psychologist and an FBI profiler. I definitely wanted and did attend the seminar. We were also able to ask questions after they had completed their presentations. 

A couple of things that were presented made a lot of sense to me. Most mass shooters have identical or near identical personalities and profiles. There may be warning signs, but psychologists are not able to predict or identify who the next mass shooter may be. 

Here is a real eye opener. Mass shooters are likely NOT to have any mental illness. More than likely, they do have personality disorders and feel wronged by the group they have decided to eliminate. How any of this affects today’s shooter, I am not sure. 

Psychologists and Profilers do not have crystal balls. Where or when the next mass shooting will occur is anyone’s guess. Who it will be cannot be determined. Someone asked the question if better gun control laws would prevent these mass shootings. Both of the presenters basically said the same thing; “It’s probably too late for that, taking into consideration the number of weapons that are in the hands of the public today.” They May be right.


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## 911 (Aug 3, 2019)

I have written about this previously, but maybe it should be repeated. I was the second Trooper to arrive at the West Nickel Mines shooting in 2006 at the Amish school house. Charles Roberts took 10 girls hostage, shooting 8 and killing 5 of them. 

We did what we could to contain Mr. Roberts until our negotiator arrived. When we heard the shooting begin, we made the decision to rush the door. Mr. Roberts had barricaded the door, so it did take us a few minutes to get inside. The last shot we heard, we thought he was shooting at us, since he had warned us to back off, but it was determined that he had shot and killed himself with the last shot. 

Initial investigation and further investigation found Mr. Roberts to have been in good spirits during the week leading up to the shooting. There was some witnesses who said that prior to that week, he seemed to be nervous, agitated and upset, but then settled down and was acting normal the week before the shooting. 

After carrying the little girls out of the schoolhouse, there wasn’t a dry eye among us.

The Coroner did add in his report that in his opinion, the deceased suffered from “personality disorders.”


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## fmdog44 (Aug 3, 2019)

Sadly, the word is the shooter wrote an essay on line and if the authorities prove that he wrote is they can charge him with a hate crime. Now I ask everyone with 19 dead and 40 wounded and certainly the death toll will rise what %$#%^&& difference does it make if it is a hate crime or not. It is a slaughter of innocent people!! The guy lives in Allen and so he drove a long way to get to ElPaso. Worst above all this will never end, ever.


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## win231 (Aug 3, 2019)

Pink Biz said:


> If someone thinks resolving the mental health epidemic* in the US will be a successful way to prevent gun violence, they are looking to complicate and ignore a very simple solution. Just tighten background checks, ban certain types of guns and ammo, and your'e there. The Second Amendment prevails and war artillery is kept out of the wrong hands.
> 
> * Did you know the highest rate of suicide in America is amongst white men 85 years old and over?



"Simple Solutions" to complicated problems never work.


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## johndoe (Aug 3, 2019)

As seniors we know first hand that our culture has changed dramatically in the U.S. in our lifetime. It's a high stress existence anymore fueled by drugs and moral decay and these shootings are so frequent that they are almost expected every few weeks and are becoming the norm.


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## hollydolly (Aug 3, 2019)

Death toll at 22 now.... 

here's a report which included a video of the killer being arrested...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ice-say-theres-active-shooter-local-mall.html


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## DaveA (Aug 3, 2019)

I'm amazed that we here in the US,  are so much more mentally deficient than  countries like Australia, New Zealand, or the UK.  I used to think that the lack of strict gun laws (no - -not confiscation) had something to do with the shootings but the NRA and others say that there's *NO* connection between the rate of ownership, in the US, and the types of weapons available to almost anyone, mentally unbalanced or not.

That's kind of a shame as we can't do much about the people with mental problems, unless we just lock them all up, and we're constantly told that restricting gun ownership won't help at all - - -sounds like we just have to live with it.


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## applecruncher (Aug 3, 2019)

DaveA said:


> I'm amazed that we here in the US,  are so much more mentally deficient than  countries like Australia, New Zealand, or the UK.  I used to think that the lack of strict gun laws (no - -not confiscation) had something to do with the shootings but the NRA and others say that there's *NO* connection between the rate of ownership, in the US, and the types of weapons available to almost anyone, mentally unbalanced or not.
> 
> That's kind of a shame as we can't do much about the people with mental problems, unless we just lock them all up, and we're constantly told that restricting gun ownership won't help at all - - -sounds like we just have to live with it.



And is there no mental illness in New Zealand, Australia, and the UK??   
And Americans are more mentally deficient than people in those countries? HA! Surely you jest.


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## hypochondriac (Aug 3, 2019)

applecruncher said:


> And is there no mental illness in New Zealand, Australia, and the UK??


Im Aussie and you could hardly call me mentally ill .....


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 3, 2019)

First of all, rest peacefully to all those who were killed, and my sympathy to the other victims and families of all.  This man is white and had racist hate behind his killings, here's more on this piece of garbage for anyone interested.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/patrick-crusius-manifesto-el-paso-shooting/
Edit to add:  Just noticed that Annie already posted this link.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 3, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Another interesting question would be "What did the victims have in common?"



I haven't seen the names or faces of the people killed, but I would guess that most of them were Hispanic.  This is a racist hate crime by a white man.  Maybe if there were more Hispanics, blacks and other people of color in countries that keep being brought up in these threads,  and the high population per city as in the US, there would be more killings there too.  Plenty of racists in this world to go around, some are just happily isolated with their own kind.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

After reading the entire article, it’s my opinion (I am not a Psychologist) that Crusius is not insane, but may be suffering from some sort of mental illness, but I can’t even be 100% certain of that. It may be just his way of thinking and has an obvious hate of Mexicans.


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## Trade (Aug 4, 2019)

This is one of those times when I fantasize about vigilante justice. If I could be assured that I would suffer no legal consequences I would gladly beat this POS to death with a baseball bat.


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## StarSong (Aug 4, 2019)

911 said:


> In 2008 and after the 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech, we had the opportunity to attend a seminar at a local university that had as main speakers a well known psychologist and an FBI profiler. I definitely wanted and did attend the seminar. We were also able to ask questions after they had completed their presentations.
> 
> A couple of things that were presented made a lot of sense to me. Most mass shooters have identical or near identical personalities and profiles. There may be warning signs, but psychologists are not able to predict or identify who the next mass shooter may be.
> 
> ...



So our country foolishly continues to do nothing of any consequence. Over 100 million guns were sold in the US since the VA shooting.  There are enough weapons in the US for virtually every man, woman and child to have lethal force at our fingertips.  

How deep does this hole have to get before we STOP DIGGING? Sad to say, but Americans are very slow learners.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

StarSong said:


> So our country foolishly continues to do nothing of any consequence. Over 100 million guns were sold in the US since the VA shooting.  There are enough weapons in the US for virtually every man, woman and child to have lethal force at our fingertips.
> 
> How deep does this hole have to get before we STOP DIGGING? Sad to say, but Americans are very slow learners.



Your facts represent the reason why the U.S. will never be physically invaded. Al Qaeda had to use airplanes and that should never happen again.


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## johndoe (Aug 4, 2019)

These events only reinforce the belief by the leadership in China, North Korea and Russia that a free and open society is to be avoided.


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## StarSong (Aug 4, 2019)

Just saw this headline:

*2 mass shootings in less than 24 hours shock US*
There was a second mass shooting yesterday, this time in Dayton, OH.  9 dead.  

The most shocking part of this headline is that AP thinks mass shootings still shock Americans.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

How to prevent mass shootings has been discussed ad nauseam. I personally know men that own over 100 weapons. They have bought some, inherited some and won some at gun raffles, which are very frequently held around this area. 

I have heard and read numerous upon numerous ideas/suggestions. There are two items that we have to get past to even think about cutting back on weapons. 1. The 2nd Amendment (good luck with that) 2. The U.S. believes in a capitalist society and free trade, so that also is a stumbling block, but would be easier to overcome than changing the Constitution. 

Limiting the number of firearms I’m not sure will work. Too many guns out there now and a mass shooter only needs one AR15 to get the job done. Just one. Giving everyone a psychological exam may be a sticky issue with privacy rules and laws.


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## StarSong (Aug 4, 2019)

So we continue to do nothing.  Like I said, we're very slow learners.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

Violent TV and movie productions certainly don’t help. Along with those two items is violent computer games. To the younger generation, perception is reality. They believe that what they see, they can also do. I’ve had suspects in shootings tell me that.

If I only had the answer, but you’re right. We have to start by doing something and then go from there. But, we have to take that first step.


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## Gary O' (Aug 4, 2019)

911 said:


> We have to start by doing something and then go from there. But, we have to take that first step


Maybe de-sensationalizing those horrible events, and the shooters
Sure, a headline, but not so much after that
Seems the shooters are always trying to make a statement
If we quit pouring over what that statement could possibly be, and just mow the shooter down......
Maybe a pic of the shooter in a body bag
(just thinking out loud)


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## Pink Biz (Aug 4, 2019)

StarSong said:


> So we continue to do nothing.  Like I said, we're very slow learners.



I agree with you, and add that as a nation we are cowards and just plain stupid as long as we sit on our hands and let this carnage go on and on and on.


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## Sunny (Aug 4, 2019)

> Now I ask everyone with 19 dead and 40 wounded and certainly the death toll will rise what %$#%^&& difference does it make if it is a hate crime or not. It is a slaughter of innocent people!! The guy lives in Allen and so he drove a long way to get to ElPaso. Worst above all this will never end, ever.



Fmdog, I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. What is the difference between a "hate crime" and just plain ordinary murder? Innocent people are just as dead, whether the killer was motivated by "hate" or something else.  Is it worse if he hates a certain class/category of people, than if he is just a sociopath who thinks it would be fun to test his shooting skills in a crowded store?

I've never understood this. Why the deflection into "they are deciding whether this is a hate crime or not?"  Who cares?


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## win231 (Aug 4, 2019)

There is a possible contributing factor that is overlooked my most:
The first that happens when someone is "depressed" is they are prescribed drugs that carry the warning:  "This drug may cause suicidal or homicidal tendencies."  Almost every school shooter was on Prozac or other anti-depressive.
I asked my nephew how such a drug can contribute to homicide or suicide because he was given Paxil when he had a hard time going through his parents' divorce when he was 10.  He explained that such drugs can allow someone to act on their impulses by removing the inhibitions that prevent us from doing what we may fantasize about doing.


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## Pink Biz (Aug 4, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Fmdog, I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. What is the difference between a "hate crime" and just plain ordinary murder? Innocent people are just as dead, whether the killer was motivated by "hate" or something else.  Is it worse if he hates a certain class/category of people, than if he is just a sociopath who thinks it would be fun to test his shooting skills in a crowded store?
> 
> I've never understood this. Why the deflection into "they are deciding whether this is a hate crime or not?"  Who cares?



When you have a crime based on bias and hate, the victim’s entire community is left feeling victimized, vulnerable, fearful, isolated, and unprotected. Hate crimes can lead to reprisals and escalating group tension and violence. So,the impact of the crime is far greater than the already horrible impact on the individual.


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## Camper6 (Aug 4, 2019)

This is a reader's comment to the New York Times.

Robert Stewart
Chantilly, VirginiaAug. 3
Times Pick
We would not have all the gun violence suffered by our citizens in malls, schools, movie theaters, churches, places of business, etc. if there was not such a dopey understanding of the Second Amendment and if we had legislators with a backbone.


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## squatting dog (Aug 4, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Maybe de-sensationalizing those horrible events, and the shooters
> Sure, a headline, but not so much after that
> Seems the shooters are always trying to make a statement
> If we quit pouring over what that statement could possibly be, and just mow the shooter down......
> ...



spot on Gary. I can recall being in high school and we all had to go to the morgue and view the end result of a drunk driving crash. I don't know how many of the other classmates felt, but, I for one never, ever, had the urge to drink and drive again.


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## win231 (Aug 4, 2019)

squatting dog said:


> spot on Gary. I can recall being in high school and we all had to go to the morgue and view the end result of a drunk driving crash. I don't know how many of the other classmates felt, but, I for one never, ever, had the urge to drink and drive again.


That wouldn't help.  In most of these cases, the shooter commits suicide, so he wouldn't be impressed by a body bag.


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2019)

My answer: *Distorted Sense of Reality = Mind Altering Drugs *that have been easy for our young boys to get their hands on for decades (and now are grown), like oxycodone...*PLUS Violent Video Games *(and street drugs laced with other devastating chemicals meant to encourage dependency and do harm...even handed out free to get them hooked then sending them into theft in order to pay their drug-pushers).

The mass shooters are mostly the same age group (not the vegas one...there's a *Military PTSD with Guns and Combat Training *reason for a few of the older men).

My son came home at age 14 with a borrowed video game called "Grand Theft Auto". I'd never seen a video game so I took the controls myself because I was always cautious as a parent and hands on. I was appalled. The video had me walking down a nice sidewalk in a city with nice animated people (but real looking) passing by and I was suppose to shoot them as they passed me in order to get points. Then a police officer came in the street and I was suppose to shoot him too...repeatedly...to boost my score. I did because I wanted to see what our many young boys were experiencing. As the animated (but real looking) Officer fell down flat on his face, I kept shooting as blood made a puddle on the street. I stopped as I'd seen more than enough. *We must get these violent video games banned!!*

I was literally sick to my stomach. I of course banned all video games in my house after that. But how do parents know what happens at their friend's houses.

There was a short period of time back then when *mindful parents got together to protest these violent video games but were quickly silenced by the powerful media industry...$$$.*

`


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## win231 (Aug 4, 2019)

Violent video games are a scapegoat - another example of blaming an inanimate object that has no will of its own.  A simple solution to a complicated problem.  Killing is a matter of will, not the availability of objects - like cars, guns, violent movies, fire, or planes.
I saw much-worse violence as a child - & (unlike video games) it was live & real.  I have no desire to hurt anyone.
Many people on this forum own firearms.  What miraculous intervention prevents them from murdering people?


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## Gary O' (Aug 4, 2019)

win231 said:


> That wouldn't help. In most of these cases, the shooter commits suicide, so he wouldn't be impressed by a body bag


Who gives a sh-t about the shooter
Talkin' future shooters


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## Gary O' (Aug 4, 2019)

win231 said:


> The first that happens when someone is "depressed" is they are prescribed drugs that carry the warning: *"This drug may cause suicidal or homicidal tendencies." Almost every school shooter was on Prozac or other anti-depressive*


Boy, if that's a fact, that's sure worth pursuing.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

win231 said:


> Violent video games are a scapegoat - another example of blaming an inanimate object that has no will of its own.  A simple solution to a complicated problem.  Killing is a matter of will, not the availability of objects - like cars, guns, violent movies, fire, or planes.
> I saw much-worse violence as a child - & (unlike video games) it was live & real.  I have no desire to hurt anyone.
> Many people on this forum own firearms.  What miraculous intervention prevents them from murdering people?



You’re wrong. Violent video games do have an impact on “some” of our younger people and by that I mean up to about the age of 40 years of age. I don’t think we are going to be able to shut off the flow of these types of games, but the government has the power to add a tax to make these games even more expensive than they are now. That’s not saying that some will not continue to buy them.

Even if we were able to shut off the flow of these violent video games, that alone will not be enough. There really has to be an answer, but what it is, at least for now, is beyond me. What I do know is that I do not and will not leave my home without protection.


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2019)

win231 said:


> Violent video games are a scapegoat - another example of blaming an inanimate object that has no will of its own.  A simple solution to a complicated problem.


Violent video games played 6 hours a day are not a scapegoat to place blame for mass killings.
Violent video games are a catalyst for mass killings.


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## JustBonee (Aug 4, 2019)

_.. the government has the power to add a tax to make these games even more expensive than they are now. That’s not saying that some will not continue to buy them._

Fortnite is FREE  ...  https://www.theguardian.com/games/2...-parents-guide-video-game-multiplayer-shooter


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2019)

Bonnie said:


> Fortnite is FREE


The recent teenage winner of $2 Million in the big Gamer competition for the video game Fortnite said in an interview that he "plays 6 hours a day and loses his sense of reality". Helllooo.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Boy, if that's a fact, that's sure worth pursuing.



Luvox seems to be the drug most used by young people today. It’s the same as the rest of the drugs in that class. 

Before I put my kid on any of those drugs, I would first consider strong counseling without drugs. Even a temporary stay in a mental facility that treats young people with obsessive, compulsive thoughts may be better. Heck, I may even hire a life coach to take care of my child.


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

There several websites that have “pirated” games on them that are available for free downloading. Of course, if you get caught, you better have a big checkbook balance.


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2019)

911 said:
			
		

> I would first consider strong counseling without drugs. Even a temporary stay in a mental facility that treats young people with obsessive, compulsive thoughts may be better.


Mental Health facilities are not working. They are overcrowded and understaffed. In the 1960's, the President shut down most of the mental hospitals. In a later administration more were shut down. The mentally ill hit the streets....thus the reason why we have so many homeless now.


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## Gary O' (Aug 4, 2019)

win231 said:


> The first that happens when someone is "depressed" is they are prescribed drugs that carry the warning: "This drug may cause suicidal or homicidal tendencies." Almost every school shooter was on Prozac or other anti-depressive.


My lady was put on Prozac during our kid's teen years, due to her incessant weeping (she was a stay at home mom). 
She turned into a freakin' zombie
Didn't give a sh-t about nuthin'
Told her to go back to weeping
I quit my 2nd the 3rd jobs
We teamed up

They haven't kilt no one yet

I considered takin' them out a time or two


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

Lara said:


> Mental Health facilities are not working. They are overcrowded and understaffed. In the 1960's, the President shut down most of the mental hospitals. In a later administration more were shut down. The mentally ill hit the streets....thus the reason why we have so many homeless now.



We have a private mental health facility here in PA that is absolutely wonderful. My brother’s son, my nephew, had severe depression from the time he was 22-28. Finally, my brother asked his psychiatrist about having him housed in a private facility. He recommended Project Transition. My nephew stayed there for about 8 months, continued another year with the psychiatrist and for the last almost 20 years, he has not relapsed. No drugs, but honestly, he did receive some type of medication at the hospital for about 3 months before being weaned off of it.


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## win231 (Aug 4, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Boy, if that's a fact, that's sure worth pursuing.


https://www.cchrflorida.org/antidepressants-are-a-prescription-for-mass-shootings/
https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
https://www.drugawareness.org/school-shootings-the-evidence-antidepressants-are-the-cause/


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## 911 (Aug 4, 2019)

There is also another issue to consider. Being in law enforcement and working both patrol and investigation, I can state to anyone that cares, there has been many times when someone has come forward after a shooting and tell us that they had just spoken to the shooter days before and he talked about shooting someone and they didn’t take them seriously. 

As an example, we had a husband kill his wife and denied it right through trial. One of the witnesses had testified that they had spoken with the defendant just a week before his wife was found dead. He stated on the stand that the defendant made the statement that he could just kill Diane for what she is asking for in the divorce. 

I do remember after a few of the school shootings that a student did come forward and made the comment that they spoke with the shooter and he made comments that he was going to make his rounds, as they say, but he thought he was just kidding. In schools now, administrators and teachers tell students that if anyone speaks to them about killing kids, they should report it immediately.


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2019)

911 said:
			
		

> He stated on the stand that the defendant made the statement that he could just kill Diane for what she is asking for in the divorce......but he thought he was just kidding.


That's my story too, 911. My first marriage lasted only 8 months. I was 21. During that time, my mother-in-law made it clear she didn't like being married to my husbands step-father who was a very rich man in a prestigious top position. She told me once that her dogs would sleep between them and said to me, "I could just kill him". It made me very uncomfortable but I never thought she meant it for real. The man really was, dare I say, a pompous ass, so I got it that she was unhappy but didn't think she would kill him.

My then husband, her son, was overly controlling and also shared about some violent quarrels his mother had in the past with his real father. I still didn't think either were capable of murder. We divorced. He called me shortly after and told me that his mother shot his step-father 7 times in the front doorway...claiming she thought he was a burglar even though he lived there. I was never asked to testify. I was scared for my own life at that point, figured they'd find her guilty without my help, and young. She got off because she used lots of her late husbands money to get the best lawyer.

She called me a couple of years later to have lunch with her. It scared the hell out of me. I had a fiancé so had a good excuse. Then her son called me shortly after. Then he called me when I was 40 and said he wanted to get together and still had feelings for me. I asked him how he found me since I'd moved several times  and he said, "I worked for the CIA so I can find anybody". That was before computers were full of personal information or social media. If I was ever a gold-digger that was my opportunity but no thanks. He's at least a multi-millionaire...more likely a billionaire, no kids, never married, super handsome...but no thanks. That was NOT a good chapter in my life.


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## Pink Biz (Aug 4, 2019)

Just so you know, the first two sites linked in win231's post#61 are _Scientology_ websites. If that's your thing, so be it, but I believe that significant fact needed to be pointed out. If you're not familiar with Scientology''s controversial and radical views, just google them!


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## fmdog44 (Aug 4, 2019)

The media has comments like beware of persons walking in wearing trench coats but look at the picture of the kid walking right in the front walk-in doors in a *T-shirt *wearing ear phones. So he gets out of his car, grab his AK47 and begins walking through the parking lot and no one calls 911??!!


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 4, 2019)

There's just too much shooting and killing going on! What kind of world are we living in??!! These mass killings....just horrible. My husband used to ask me didn't watching shows about monsters and paranormal creatures scare me. My answer was no...it's the real life monsters that scare me.


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## hypochondriac (Aug 4, 2019)

how similar are the comments on this thread to ones after previous mass shootings? and future ones ... 
will change really occur? what does it take?  1000 victims? 10 000 victims?
more?


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## win231 (Aug 4, 2019)

Pink Biz said:


> Just so you know, the first two sites linked in win231's post#61 are _Scientology_ websites. If that's your thing, so be it, but I believe that significant fact needed to be pointed out. If you're not familiar with Scientology''s controversial and radical views, just google them!


I don't know about the connection to Scientology, but the warnings about homicidal & suicidal tendencies do not come from Scientology; they're required by the FDA.


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## StarSong (Aug 5, 2019)

Pink Biz said:


> Just so you know, the first two sites linked in win231's post#61 are _Scientology_ websites. If that's your thing, so be it, but I believe that significant fact needed to be pointed out. If you're not familiar with Scientology''s controversial and radical views, just google them!


Thank you for digging into the sources.  The NY Times, WA Post, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, The Atlantic, Bloomberg News, BBC, The Guardian, and myriad other deep-dive investigative news sources are noticeably absent from this list.  

Perhaps anti-depressants _are_ a factor in some of these mass shootings. I don't doubt it. That said, we are not the only country with a fair number of young people taking these medications, but seem to be the only Western country dealing with this ongoing random slaughters.

The difference between us and the rest is our public's ease of access to military style weaponry.


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## StarSong (Aug 5, 2019)

hypochondriac said:


> how similar are the comments on this thread to ones after previous mass shootings? and future ones ...
> will change really occur? what does it take?  1000 victims? 10 000 victims?
> more?


Hypo, when the NRA and its supporters would not bend following the massacre of 20 little children (6-7 years old) and 6 staff members, many of us despaired that any level of horror could change their hearts. 

How high is the fear level in this country? Check out what's in the back-to-school section of many stores:


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

Its a known fact the link between mind altering drugs and killing:
https://psychiatricfraud.org/2011/04/the-real-lesson-of-columbine-psychiatric-drugs-induce-violence/
Its also known that kids line up at schools to get their "druggie shots"... believe the schools get paid a lot for this "benefit":

https://www.additudemag.com/school-nurses-and-adhd-meds/


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## Sunny (Aug 5, 2019)

There are some big gaps in the news coverage of this story, or maybe I just missed it, but how was he stopped, and arrested?  One article said no shots were fired by law enforcement, and it didn't say anything about him being wounded, so how did the arrest take place?

Assuming that he was not wounded, one helpful aspect about all this (if I can put it that way) is that questioning him may provide some useful information. Maybe we could learn what, if any, antidepressant medication he was on, and what violent video games he played. How much of an influence was that horrible web site that he posted his manifesto on?  In other words, what can we learn about what makes so many young people go off the rails in this way, over and over again? Many of them are killed themselves, but at least maybe this one can answer some questions.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Hypo, when the NRA and its supporters would not bend following the massacre of 20 little children (6-7 years old) and 6 staff members, many of us despaired that any level of horror could change their hearts.
> 
> How high is the fear level in this country? Check out what's in the back-to-school section of many stores:



I place blame for the Sandy Hook massacre squarely on Adam Lanza's brain-dead mother, who knew her son was mentally ill & bought him firearms & ammunition & even took him to shooting ranges.  She bypassed regulations that prevented him from legal gun ownership.
At least her son did one thing right before going to the school.


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## Camper6 (Aug 5, 2019)

O.K. if you truly believe that prescription drugs are the problem then there is a simple solution.

Anyone taking them cannot own a weapon legally.

Not to say they won't get one illegally but presenting them with a weapon is like aiding and abetting a crime.


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## Camper6 (Aug 5, 2019)

Sunny said:


> There are some big gaps in the news coverage of this story, or maybe I just missed it, but how was he stopped, and arrested?  One article said no shots were fired by law enforcement, and it didn't say anything about him being wounded, so how did the arrest take place?
> 
> Assuming that he was not wounded, one helpful aspect about all this (if I can put it that way) is that questioning him may provide some useful information. Maybe we could learn what, if any, antidepressant medication he was on, and what violent video games he played. How much of an influence was that horrible web site that he posted his manifesto on?  In other words, what can we learn about what makes so many young people go off the rails in this way, over and over again? Many of them are killed themselves, but at least maybe this one can answer some questions.


My understanding is that he gave himself up. That was part of the plan.


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

win231 said:


> I place blame for the Sandy Hook massacre squarely on Adam Lanza's brain-dead mother, who knew her son was mentally ill & bought him firearms & ammunition & even took him to shooting ranges.  She bypassed regulations that prevented him from legal gun ownership.
> At least her son did one thing right before going to the school.


So agree, Win...too bad we can't  legislate  "stupidity control". As I remember it, she was "bonding" with an already deeply disturbed son to try to get back at the father.  So often parents use the kids as "weapons".


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> O.K. if you truly believe that prescription drugs are the problem then there is a simple solution.
> 
> Anyone taking them cannot own a weapon legally.
> 
> Not to say they won't get one illegally but presenting them with a weapon is like aiding and abetting a crime.


Camper..correction " triple narcs perscriptions/ mind altering drugs."


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## Camper6 (Aug 5, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Camper..correction " triple narcs perscriptions/ mind altering drugs."


I'm not sure if that is the answer to the problem.


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not sure if that is the answer to the problem.


Couldn't hurt much though...of course you would need to ban "weed" and booze" too...lol.


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## win231 (Aug 5, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Camper..correction " triple narcs perscriptions/ mind altering drugs."



I doubt it will happen.  Too much profit involved.  Such drugs are prescribed like Skittles.
"Your kid's bored in school?  Take these."
"He's unhappy?  Take these.
"He doesn't play with other kids? He's a loner? Take these."
"He's daydreaming in class? Take these."
"He's not paying attention? Take these."
And most parents do whatever professionals (with letters (MD or PhD after their names) tell them to do; programmed robots with no mind of their own.
Many doctors make so much in drug-company perks, they don't even practice any more - they just write Rx's.
I broke it off with several women because they were bat-poop nutty.  After the 4th, I started learning about anti-depressive meds & I found out later they were all on them.  Anger issues, bad tempers, paranoia, constant accusations of cheating, the whole bit.  I told one of them, "Ya know, whatever you're taking, it ain't helping."


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

win231 said:


> I doubt it will happen.  Too much profit involved.  Such drugs are prescribed like Skittles.
> "Your kid's bored in school?  Take these."
> "He's unhappy?  Take these.
> "He doesn't play with other kids? He's a loner? Take these."
> ...


Win...you are so right, and schools get money shelled out to them to have nurses administer the meds.  Ask a teacher if he or she has ever seen the kids lined up outside the nurse's door to get they're mid day meds.  
Some parents just want "magic bullets" and anything to keep the kid settled, quiet, busy and entertained.  
Whatever happened to corporal punishment?  Very sad what we've come to - talk about child abuses.


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## StarSong (Aug 5, 2019)

Liberty and Win, until you've walk a mile in the shoes of a parent whose child has suffered with serious PTSD, ADHD, or clinical depression, you have no right or grounds to so callously and cavalierly judge those who've had to make these incredibly difficult choices for our children.  

Most parents don't run to prescription meds for their kids. Quite the opposite. It's the last place they go, and only when all other avenues have failed them.


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## Sunny (Aug 5, 2019)

Liberty, your note managed to have more misunderstandings and false information, bad advice, and even one spelling mistake, crammed into a small space than anything I have ever seen on this forum.  

And BTW, back in the mid-20th century, I went to school and then taught school in New Jersey. They had a civilized law, even then, that no teacher was allowed to lay a hand on any child as punishment. (Not in the public schools, anyway, which were excellent. At least we learned how to spell "their.") Any teacher inflicting corporal punishment would have been fired on the spot.

You actually believe that the schools are pushing unneeded meds on kids so they can collect fees?  And beating kids is the solution to dealing with autistic or seriously disturbed kids? Good God.


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## Liberty (Aug 5, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Liberty, your note managed to have more misunderstandings and false information, bad advice, and even one spelling mistake, crammed into a small space than anything I have ever seen on this forum.
> 
> And BTW, back in the mid-20th century, I went to school and then taught school in New Jersey. They had a civilized law, even then, that no teacher was allowed to lay a hand on any child as punishment. (Not in the public schools, anyway, which were excellent. At least we learned how to spell "their.") Any teacher inflicting corporal punishment would have been fired on the spot.
> 
> You actually believe that the schools are pushing unneeded meds on kids so they can collect fees?  And beating kids is the solution to dealing with autistic or seriously disturbed kids? Good God.


That's not what I meant as a blanket statement.  Sorry I spelled a word wrong, but I do think we need more attentive parents to their children's true needs.  I've known parents of special needs children that were wonderful to them.  Would that in general we could have more patience with our children of this generation.  Someone has to help these children.  Someone has to have the authority to actually "care" about them and help them.  That's all I meant. Sorry if I ruffled your "Sunny" feathers...lol. https://www.howtolearn.com/2011/07/adhd-diagnosis-is-worth-money-to-schools/


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## DaveA (Aug 5, 2019)

Now that we realize (from the NRA and their supporters)that guns aren't even a consideration in bringing about these killings, then we can again look towards Australia for a solution as they seem free of this problem.  First, we must assume that very few of their people are mentally unbalanced.  I guess we can also safely assume that they do not consume drugs and or anti-depressants and finally, their young people are not familiar with any of the violent video games that we are subjected to here in the US. 

As I first stated, if the availability of guns and the ability to wander about armed to the teeth, including body armor, have been eliminated as a part of the problem, it leaves one puzzled as to where we differ from our Australian friends in regards to mass murders?

Any thoughts?


----------



## rgp (Aug 5, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Liberty and Win, until you've walk a mile in the shoes of a parent whose child has suffered with serious PTSD, ADHD, or clinical depression, you have no right or grounds to so callously and cavalierly judge those who've had to make these incredibly difficult choices for our children.
> 
> Most parents don't run to prescription meds for their kids. Quite the opposite. It's the last place they go, and only when all other avenues have failed them.



 Not speaking for Win & or Liberty but I have seen the same as they have. If you are a cut above ? Then IMO you are in the rare category. And I tip my hat to you.

   "Most parents don't run to prescription meds for their kids. Quite the opposite. It's the last place they go, and only when all other avenues have failed them."

 Here again, it has been my experience that, that is exactly what they do ........ 'well I gave him/her all the drugs the doc said to ...... he/she just doesn't get any better. '   Not a quote, but similar to what I have heard.


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## Gary O' (Aug 5, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Liberty and Win, until you've walk a mile in the shoes of a parent whose child has suffered with serious PTSD, ADHD, or clinical depression, you have no right or grounds to so callously and cavalierly judge those who've had to make these incredibly difficult choices for our children.
> 
> Most parents don't run to prescription meds for their kids. Quite the opposite. It's the last place they go, and only when all other avenues have failed them.




I'm sorry

This made me think about the early years of discovering my eldest son was schizophrenic

Again, sorry, this may have some bearing, maybe not, but feel the need to re-post this


I just watched the movie 'Shine' last night

.....reminded me of my eldest son

was hard to hold emotion thru some parts

was much harder for my Lady

but we remained

riveted

My son
Excelled in academics
Skipped grades
Won awards
Became somewhat sought after
Mensa
Artistic things hung in municipal halls
Life for him was just too slow apace
Stayed up for days at a time
He’d regurgitate all his thoughts to his mother and I
It was a bit suffocating

Then one day he came to me in my shop
....and began crying, telling me he felt he was going crazy,
but unable to put his feelings into words
I hugged him
Told him all kids go thru puberty and change
‘this too shall pass’ kinda thing

The next years are a blur
I guess maybe I never have wished to dwell on the events in those years

I’ll try to piece some together on my own, as I know better than to ask my lady


He ended up in prison
At 19
Advancing from a minimum security facility to OSP
And on to ‘thunderdome’
Where nobody wants to go

Tried to arrange visits
Rejected countless times
Talked to OSP counselors
‘forget your son, concentrate on your other children’

We got a call
OSP does not call anyone
‘You need to see your son’

The visiting area was like a staging zone for zoo critters
Steel tables, benches, cemented in
Chain link walls and doors
He was led in by guards
Shackled head to toe
Made to sit
Unseeing eyes
No recognition
Indistinguishable utterances
He stunk to high heaven
Never looked our way

On the way home I had to pull over, off the freeway
I don’t remember the last time I cried
Maybe as a small child...
But
Never wept like that in my life
And have yet too since
Bitter
Helpless
Godless
Utter hopelessness

A week (?) later we got another call
He was being transferred to the psych ward across the street
Where ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’ was filmed

We were told he had quit eating entirely
Weighed 90 lbs
A guard carried him across the street, in his arms

We were led to the visiting area
Typical booth like situation for visitors
Only, the other side of the glass was something from a zombie movie
We got to watch him attempt to drink milk and cry

My lady had a very hard time
I went alone
Weeks of visiting later, he was released
Just like that

After 7 years of maximum security

to us

I do not do well when cleaning up men with uncontrolled body functions

Triage
Nut bins
Meds

It’s all a blur

Somewhere in there, when he was still cognizant, I did a bit of a fraught thing…

We talked about his options
He wanted to go camping

So

Him and I packed his meager belongings

Bought him some basic camp stuff

Drove him to the Trask river area


And dropped him off

while it began to rain

Ever do something that gave you immediate relief, knowing the end result would probably not be optimal?


On the way back home, I tried not to think.

Still

Thoughts crept in

Maybe he’d just lie there curled in his sleeping bag
Inert
Oblivious
Until days later large birds of prey would dine on his remains

It’s all a blur

They found him 300 miles south
Incoherent

The Tillamook women’s mental health facility asked us to take him back 'he can't stay here'

More triage

Got him hooked up with a place called Luke-Dorf

General population nut bin for semi-functional goofballs
Then what they call the quad
Then paired up in a shared apartment
And now
On his own
On a budget

I figger the tax payer’s dollars for this are from this tax payer

During these times he’d ever so often not take his meds
Sometimes it was because they changed colors or shapes and he didn’t think they were right
Sometimes it was just because he thought he no longer needed them
Always ended with me going over there, reattaching his phone, and fishing his glasses outa the toilet.

He’s as functional now as you and me, first look.

As long as he takes his meds.

Sorry
This is jumbled time line mess
My lady can recite the events like they happened yesterday
7 or more years of them
I will not take her there


Couple things;

Underage folks do not get diagnosed in regard to mental health
No matter how batshit crazy they are
At least they didn’t then

but

Rosie O'Donnell can git outa bed to do a show
Then go back to bed
And she’s clinically nuts

I know, I know, mental illness is different than insanity
I jus’ wanted to be trite for a bit during this scattered post


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## Butterfly (Aug 6, 2019)

Gary, I am so sorry.


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## Gary O' (Aug 6, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> Gary, I am so sorry.


No sorrys, please, sweet Butterfly

Everbod here has their bags...everybody

It's just good to air them out ever so often

and StarSong's words hit home *'until you've walk a mile in the shoes of a parent whose child has suffered'*


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## Keesha (Aug 6, 2019)

911 said:


> Here is a real eye opener. Mass shooters are likely NOT to have any mental illness. More than likely, they do have personality disorders and feel wronged by the group they have decided to eliminate. How any of this affects today’s shooter, I am not sure.


Excuse me 911 but personality disorders ARE MOST DEFINITELY mental disorders. Borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder and all the others are just very COMPLEX  mental disorders.


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## Keesha (Aug 6, 2019)

911 said:


> The Coroner did add in his report that in his opinion, the deceased suffered from “personality disorders.”


Yes. Most mass shooters have mental disorders.


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## StarSong (Aug 6, 2019)

Gary I feel deeply for you, your lady, your son, and the others whose lives were turned upside down by mental illness. 

Since you so generously shared your story, I will share mine. 

One of my sons suffered with terrible ADHD and PTSD. Another had ADD. We tried everything. Consequences for "bad behavior." The first son's room was eventually stripped of virtually everything but a bed and dresser. No games, toys, TV time was at near zero, no sleepovers. You get the picture. Prison - the home version. We tried everything that prevailing wisdom dictated. He was in endless trouble in school, despite being very bright. 

By the time he was in 5th grade we were exhausted and unable to continue the unhappiness that was our family. So we went to a child psychiatrist who tested him for ADD. When we chatted at the end of the test, the psychiatrist told us our son was off the charts for ADD. Off the charts. He talked to us about meds. To say we were incredibly reluctant would be a massive understatement. I was terrified of handing my child a gateway drug that would lead to a lifetime of abuse and addiction. 

The psychiatrist assured us that statistics clearly showed that ADD ADHD kids who do not receive medication are far more likely to end up with substance abuse problems because of their attempts to self medicate with drugs and alcohol. So we tried it. Within a week he was no longer in trouble at school and was permitted (for the first time since 2nd grade) to sit near his friends instead of abutting the teacher's desk. The teacher's words? "Wow! Just wow!"

As the psychiatrist predicted, the meds not only helped him settle down, they gave him a chance to form a new self-image, and develop coping skills for his ADHD without all that zooming going on in his head.  Again, as predicted, he stopped taking the meds on his own in his second year of college.  

He's now in his 30s, happily married, employed at a $100K plus job, and managing his life well. When he hits a serious bump he goes to therapy. 

My other son's story is similar but a little less dramatic. 

When in HS they were both very sympathetic toward kids who they knew were ADD (from a it[takes-one-to-know-one perspective), but whose parents wouldn't/couldn't look into that possibility because they either couldn't accept having a less than perfect child, or refused to "drug" their children. 

The endings for many of those children were far less happy.  Heavy drug and alcohol use in latter HS and through their early 20s. Some entanglements with the law.  I have no idea how their lives spun out after that.  

Our sons are grateful that we sought professional help and took the advice.  My only regret is not taking them sooner.


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## Sunny (Aug 6, 2019)

Gary and Star, thanks for sharing your very moving stories.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2019)

The usual can of worms come up yet again after these heinous and horrific acts. But will the media and public please stop calling these mass murderers and cowards 'shooters'. 

 Sounds like a video game. This is one reason many of these mass killers are young. What do young people do more than older people-play video games, videos games where the players are considered shooters or 'shooting' to rack up points.  If one of these forked in the head minds sees or hears a headline-'Mass shooter kills 22" to them that's a score to be beat. The victim numbers are nothing points in a game to them.

And please please point out what cowards they are. Give their name and call or describe them as a coward. The pos El Paso killers surrendered, the pos actually surrendered, no blaze of glory or suicide.  The Dayton killer shot at unarmed civilians in body armor. Is that soldierly like? If they want to play 'soldier' in their private war at least act like one. There is no honor or martyrdom after acts like these. The media needs to call them out on stuff like this. Bring on a string psyc specialists calling them deranged, unstable what ever. But the word mass shooting has to be replaced with mass killing or a mass murder. And they are killers, not shooters. Shooter emphasizes the tool used in the act but the act itself is what needs to be emphasized.


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## rgp (Aug 6, 2019)

WhatInThe said:


> The usual can of worms come up yet again after these heinous and horrific acts. But will the media and public please stop calling these mass murderers and cowards 'shooters'.
> 
> Sounds like a video game. This is one reason many of these mass killers are young. What do young people do more than older people-play video games, videos games where the players are considered shooters or 'shooting' to rack up points.  If one of these forked in the head minds sees or hears a headline-'Mass shooter kills 22" to them that's a score to be beat. The victim numbers are nothing points in a game to them.
> 
> And please please point out what cowards they are. Give their name and call or describe them as a coward. The pos El Paso killers surrendered, the pos actually surrendered, no blaze of glory or suicide.  The Dayton killer shot at unarmed civilians in body armor. Is that soldierly like? If they want to play 'soldier' in their private war at least act like one. There is no honor or martyrdom after acts like these. The media needs to call them out on stuff like this. Bring on a string psyc specialists calling them deranged, unstable what ever. But the word mass shooting has to be replaced with mass killing or a mass murder. And they are killers, not shooters. Shooter emphasizes the tool used in the act but the act itself is what needs to be emphasized.




   I agree here 100 %


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## StarSong (Aug 6, 2019)

An addendum to the story.  Despite having fairly standard health insurance, most psychiatric and subsequent psychologist visits were not covered, plus the medication copays were high.  Fortunately we were in a financial position to cover these costs.  Not all parents are.

People yammer on about taking care of the mentally ill, but so far our country fails to put its money where its mouth is. Instead we pay for prisons and crowdfund funerals.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 6, 2019)

All this talk of mental illness. Apparently the El Paso mass murderer's father was a 40 year alcoholic, addict and therapist. Even if sober just a few years he couldn't pick up on his son's proclivities? Or did this head doctor make things worse professionally or with life choices?

https://popculture.com/trending/201...us-wrote-addiction-battle-spoke-jesus-memoir/
Also I thought I read the father was charged with a felony but found not guilty.


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## Liberty (Aug 6, 2019)

Thank you, Gary and Star for relating your personal stories.


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## 911 (Aug 6, 2019)

So, now this case is closed. The shooter is dead and we can all move on, except the families of the victims. They must deal with the aftermath. The media can talk about closure all they want. On Sunday, I heard one reporter make the comment that there was instant closure when the shooter shot and killed himself.

The funerals haven’t even take place yet and some nitwit is talking about the families’ closure. Not so fast, Jellybean. We have to have the funeral, mourning and then a time for grieving. Would that be OK with you? 

The worse part is, we will have to go through this again. How many more times is anyone’s guess. When and how will this madness end?


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 6, 2019)

DaveA said:


> Now that we realize (from the NRA and their supporters)that guns aren't even a consideration in bringing about these killings, then we can again look towards Australia for a solution as they seem free of this problem.  First, we must assume that very few of their people are mentally unbalanced.  I guess we can also safely assume that they do not consume drugs and or anti-depressants and finally, their young people are not familiar with any of the violent video games that we are subjected to here in the US.
> 
> As I first stated, if the availability of guns and the ability to wander about armed to the teeth, including body armor, have been eliminated as a part of the problem, it leaves one puzzled as to where we differ from our Australian friends in regards to mass murders?
> 
> Any thoughts?


Reinterpret the 2nd amendment and disband the NRA.   Then progress might be possible.


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## Sunny (Aug 6, 2019)

Warrigal, amen.

All this talk about mental illness is a desperate attempt by the NRA and its gun-worshiping followers to deflect attention from what is causing this tragedy. Yes, of course, there has always been (and probably always will be) mental illness.  But mental illness exists in the rest of the world as well, not only in the U.S.  So what is the one and only big difference?  Why so many shootings - not only mass shootings but daily occurrences of single people being shot?  Is it the mental illness that is firing bullets into people?


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## JustBonee (Aug 6, 2019)

911 said:


> So, now this case is closed. The shooter is dead and we can all move on, except the families of the victims. They must deal with the aftermath. The media can talk about closure all they want. On Sunday, I heard one reporter make the comment that there was instant closure when the shooter shot and killed himself.
> 
> The funerals haven’t even take place yet and some nitwit is talking about the families’ closure. Not so fast, Jellybean. We have to have the funeral, mourning and then a time for grieving. Would that be OK with you?
> 
> The worse part is, we will have to go through this again. How many more times is anyone’s guess. When and how will this madness end?




Down here it doesn't feel like anything is closed ... it's 24/7 on TV and in the news.  And then tomorrow the President will be there.  
It seems like there is a feel of  more involvement by the FBI in all the latest killings.  Now they need to ACT on it.


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## Pecos (Aug 6, 2019)

We lived in Elpaso during my high school years and my father retired there, so I have been in that mall many times. It was always a busy thriving and very happy place. On a Saturday they would typically have had live entertainment for the shoppers.
It breaks my heart when things like this happen.


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## win231 (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Warrigal, amen.
> 
> All this talk about mental illness is a desperate attempt by the NRA and its gun-worshiping followers to deflect attention from what is causing this tragedy. Yes, of course, there has always been (and probably always will be) mental illness.  But mental illness exists in the rest of the world as well, not only in the U.S.  So what is the one and only big difference?  Why so many shootings - not only mass shootings but daily occurrences of single people being shot?  Is it the mental illness that is firing bullets into people?



Consider the current reality.  There are THOUSANDS of guns in the hands of racist, hate-filled, drugged-out crackpots NOW.  How would more restrictions save any lives?  What do you suggest we do about future mass shooters?


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2019)

If it were only thousands the problem would be much easier to solve.


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## DaveA (Aug 7, 2019)

We obviously can't keep everyone from driving drunk but does anyone think removing the drunk driving laws would help or hurt that situation.  Only an idiot would expect tougher gun laws to _eliminate completely,  _the present killing epidemic sweeping the country but it would be a step in the right direction.  None of us has any need for these semi-auto high capacity weapons.  And I say "need".  We might enjoy the thrill of pumping out rapid fire at the range, but if this type of weapon is becoming the favorite and weapon of choice for nuts who enjoy the killing of some segments of our population maybe we'd be better off removing them from that general population.

It's been done in other civilized societies and they're still standing - -why not here and spare us the continuing slaughter of innocents?


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## StarSong (Aug 7, 2019)

win231 said:


> Consider the current reality.  There are THOUSANDS of guns in the hands of racist, hate-filled, drugged-out crackpots NOW.  How would more restrictions save any lives?  What do you suggest we do about future mass shooters?



As I said earlier, when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. What do we do about future mass shooters? How about if we STOP ARMING THEM!


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## rgp (Aug 7, 2019)

The sad truth is .... I doubt we will ever stop it. There is just no way to do it. If a person is hell-bent on doing such a thing, there is no way to stop him. Incarcerate everybody that shows the first sign of mental imbalance? That'll never sell, besides we closed up all the asylums . Stop the sale of "those" weapons ? Won't make a dent, again a person hell-bent on doing it, will find a way, find a weapon.

IMO deterrent is the only option to try. When one of these killers is caught alive, such as El Paso , or Arizona [the one that shot the congress woman] ............ who by the way was standing there literally smoking gun in hand. Order the police to execute him immediately . 

A trial is for the purpose of determining guilt or innocence , these people do not need a trial ..... period, they are guilty. So .... lets go straight to the penalty phase. If a potential killer is watching, sees this ? That might deter him, give him pause. Nothing else is working, removing guns ? that would take a thousand years, closer mental evaluation ? I myself know two teens in families that I think are way-the-hell out there ... should they be institutionalized ? Maybe, but they might be totally innocent as well. Should they be institutionalized on my word? No.

So again, lets go hard, harsh & swiftly after the ones that have committed such a thing, and perhaps send a message to those that might be inclined to do such a thing...........jmo


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## Gary O' (Aug 7, 2019)

rgp said:


> So again, lets go hard, harsh & swiftly after the ones that have committed such a thing, and perhaps send a message to those that might be inclined to do such a thing...........*jmo*


Mine too


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## Sunny (Aug 7, 2019)

Wouldn't work, rgp.  These nut cases already consider themselves heroes and martyrs, they are already prepared to die, and some of them take their own lives. Arming the entire population with assault rifles and then executing those who use them does not strike me as any kind of a solution whatsoever.

How about not arming people with assault rifles to begin with?  What would be wrong with that?

(Sorry, my attempt to copy and paste a quote didn't work here, and I can't get rid of all that junk at the bottom. Just ignore.)


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## Liberty (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Wouldn't work, rgp.  These nut cases already consider themselves heroes and martyrs, they are already prepared to die, and some of them take their own lives. Arming the entire population with assault rifles and then executing those who use them does not strike me as any kind of a solution whatsoever.
> 
> How about not arming people with assault rifles to begin with?  What would be wrong with that?
> 
> (Sorry, my attempt to copy and paste a quote didn't work here, and I can't get rid of all that junk at the bottom. Just ignore.)


Agree with Sunny...like who needs an "assault rifle" except someone who's going to "assault".  Its what Australia did and it sure seems to be working for them...know we aren't Australia, but seems like a good start...how could it hurt to do it ?


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## rgp (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Wouldn't work, rgp.  These nut cases already consider themselves heroes and martyrs, they are already prepared to die, and some of them take their own lives. Arming the entire population with assault rifles and then executing those who use them does not strike me as any kind of a solution whatsoever.
> 
> How about not arming people with assault rifles to begin with?  What would be wrong with that?
> 
> (Sorry, my attempt to copy and paste a quote didn't work here, and I can't get rid of all that junk at the bottom. Just ignore.)




 Won't work Sunny .......... too many assault style rifles already out there. Stopping sales of new ones will do nothing, except stroke the egos of folks such as yourself.   Ah we did something ..... when in fact , nothing was done.


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## rgp (Aug 7, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Agree with Sunny...like who needs an "assault rifle" except someone who's going to "assault".  Its what Australia did and it sure seems to be working for them...know we aren't Australia, but seems like a good start...how could it hurt to do it ?




 Who needs an assault car ? Let's ban those as well, after all assault cars kill more people every year than assault rifles. To bad we didn't ban assault pressure cookers , all those in Boston would have been saved as well. 

 Rapid fire weapons , & rapid fire shooting is a sport within a sport. The skill of shooting in that manner, accurately at a shooting range target. Why should their sport be hindered,diminished? I'm not a shooter, but have friends that are. One of them annoys his wife because he won't even step on spiders. If he sees one in the house ? he carries it outside. Not exactly a violent man. 

 Again, a better start would be swift,exacting capture , prosecution , and punishment of those caught and known to be guilty.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 7, 2019)

I have to wonder how many of the mass shooters have acquired the weapon they used?   Somehow I don't see them walking into a gun shop and asking for an automatic weapon.   

My belief is that there are too many active hate groups easily accessed on the internet, that give loners/weirdos a place to congregate and get crazier than they already are.   So shut down the hate sites and eliminate the "dark web".


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## StarSong (Aug 7, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> I have to wonder how many of the mass shooters have acquired the weapon they used?   Somehow I don't see them walking into a gun shop and asking for an automatic weapon.
> 
> My belief is that there are too many active hate groups easily accessed on the internet, that give loners/weirdos a place to congregate and get crazier than they already are.   So shut down the hate sites and eliminate the "dark web".



In most cases the weapons were obtained legally, including both weapons used in this past weekends massacres.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...g-guns-legal-rifles-high-capacity/1922290001/


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## rgp (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Wouldn't work, rgp.  These nut cases already consider themselves heroes and martyrs, they are already prepared to die, and some of them take their own lives. Arming the entire population with assault rifles and then executing those who use them does not strike me as any kind of a solution whatsoever.
> 
> How about not arming people with assault rifles to begin with?  What would be wrong with that?
> 
> (Sorry, my attempt to copy and paste a quote didn't work here, and I can't get rid of all that junk at the bottom. Just ignore.)




 Won't work Sunny.....they want to die _their way_! Take away _their way_ .... and show it, show that it will be taken, and that they will not have complete control ...and they might just re-think what they want. A much more swiftly applicable approach..........jmo


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## Camper6 (Aug 7, 2019)

rgp said:


> Who needs an assault car ? Let's ban those as well, after all assault cars kill more people every year than assault rifles. To bad we didn't ban assault pressure cookers , all those in Boston would have been saved as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Re cars pressure cookers etc.  Those are completely unrelated to gun violence.  Banning them would make no difference to gun violence and vice versa.  Banning guns would not reduce deaths from cars or pressure cookers.  

I agree sport shooting is fun.  This is highly regulated in Canada.  There are rules for transporting weapons to a shooting range.  

Your suggestion for swift prosecution won't work in the U.S.  Too many lawyers.

I don't think it would make any difference.  The U.S. has the death penalty.  It doesn't seem to be a deterrent at all.

Now here's a thought.  Since all of the mass shootings are by males, there should be a law banning males under 75 from owning a weapon of any kind.

Why aren't there any female mass shooters out there.  Do you get my point.  It has to be something to do with male hormones.  So the threat to offenders should be a forced gender change.


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## win231 (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Wouldn't work, rgp.  These nut cases already consider themselves heroes and martyrs, they are already prepared to die, and some of them take their own lives. Arming the entire population with assault rifles and then executing those who use them does not strike me as any kind of a solution whatsoever.
> 
> How about not arming people with assault rifles to begin with?  What would be wrong with that?
> 
> (Sorry, my attempt to copy and paste a quote didn't work here, and I can't get rid of all that junk at the bottom. Just ignore.)


It's a bit late.  They are already armed now.


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## win231 (Aug 7, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> Re cars pressure cookers etc.  Those are completely unrelated to gun violence.  Banning them would make no difference to gun violence and vice versa.  Banning guns would not reduce deaths from cars or pressure cookers.
> 
> I agree sport shooting is fun.  This is highly regulated in Canada.  There are rules for transporting weapons to a shooting range.
> 
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)


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## Liberty (Aug 7, 2019)

rgp said:


> Who needs an assault car ? Let's ban those as well, after all assault cars kill more people every year than assault rifles. To bad we didn't ban assault pressure cookers , all those in Boston would have been saved as well.
> 
> Rapid fire weapons , & rapid fire shooting is a sport within a sport. The skill of shooting in that manner, accurately at a shooting range target. Why should their sport be hindered,diminished? I'm not a shooter, but have friends that are. One of them annoys his wife because he won't even step on spiders. If he sees one in the house ? he carries it outside. Not exactly a violent man.
> 
> Again, a better start would be swift,exacting capture , prosecution , and punishment of those caught and known to be guilty.


Well, proper "enforced" legislation sure seemed to worked in Australia...and their people still own guns.  From what I understand, they tightened up their overall gun laws, besides the buy back of illegal guns - guess it would break the US to buy guns back and actually write and enforce the "correct" legislation?  Sigh: https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback


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## Sunny (Aug 7, 2019)

A "buy back" policy might be a good place to start. At least it would reduce the number of those hellish weapons out there.

Rgp, you make a good point that there are already too many of them out there to expect any immediate reduction in the murder rate by banning them from being sold. But it's better than doing nothing, and at least would prevent people from buying new ones. Or make it much harder for them to find them.

Implementing draconian punishments might satisfy our need for vengeance, but I really doubt that it would act as a deterrent. We aren't talking about heavy fines for speeders helping to reduce traffic accidents. Most drivers are pretty rational people. With these mass murders by assault weapons, we are dealing with people who are very sick, very angry, very resentful, the outcasts of society. Do you really think anyone who has reached that state of affairs is going to care about his punishment?

I do believe that those who are captured alive and found guilty should be sentenced to life without. At least it would remove them from the rest of us.


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## squatting dog (Aug 7, 2019)

Sunny said:


> I do believe that those who are captured alive and found guilty should be sentenced to life without. At least it would remove them from the rest of us.



I believe public hanging would remove them from society for good, and maybe, just maybe deter someone else from committing a similar act.


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## Sunny (Aug 7, 2019)

When has capital punishment ever, even once, acted as a deterrent?  How much proof do we need to show that it clearly doesn't work?

Anyone insane enough to go out and buy an assault rifle in order to kill as many innocent people as possible in a crowded place, is not very likely to think, "Uh-oh, that is a hanging offense, and I really don't want to hang, the last guy didn't look like he was enjoying it much, so, um, I guess I'd better
just put the whole idea on hold and not do it."  Really, S.D., is that the way you think their minds work?


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## C'est Moi (Aug 7, 2019)

Whether it's a deterrent or not, capital punishment should be carried out swiftly (after appeals are exhausted).   There is no need for taxpayers to support convicted criminals for dozens of years.


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## Camper6 (Aug 7, 2019)

win231 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)


Re Cleveland Elementary School shooting by a female.

One Robin doesn't make a whole summer.


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2019)

Arguing among yourselves does nothing to make people safer. If that is all that happens then be prepared to live in constant fear. The experience of terrified people in Times Square will become more and more commonplace, as will the weekly death tolls. Imagine yourself hearing a motorcycle backfire and being reduced to a panicked mess banging on a shut door hoping not to be shot dead.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...-false-alarm-in-wake-of-us-shootings/11393614
Perhaps millions of people every day shouting, "Do something", at elected officials might just get the ball rolling. Refuse to listen to anything they say unless it is constructive.


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> Re Cleveland Elementary School shooting by a female.
> 
> One Robin doesn't make a whole summer.


And it was way back in 1979. Not exactly a trend.


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## StarSong (Aug 7, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Arguing among yourselves does nothing to make people safer. If that is all that happens then be prepared to live in constant fear. The experience of terrified people in Times Square will become more and more commonplace, as will the weekly death tolls. Imagine yourself hearing a motorcycle backfire and being reduced to a panicked mess banging on a shut door hoping not to be shot dead.
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08...-false-alarm-in-wake-of-us-shootings/11393614
> Perhaps millions of people every day shouting, "Do something", at elected officials might just get the ball rolling. Refuse to listen to anything they say unless it is constructive.


Millions of Americans are shouting "Do Something" at elected officials every day.  The problem is that when it comes to politics in the US, money talks.  The NRA makes big donations, as do gun manufacturers, and supporters of both of these.


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## rgp (Aug 7, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Millions of Americans are shouting "Do Something" at elected officials every day.  The problem is that when it comes to politics in the US, money talks.  The NRA makes big donations, as do gun manufacturers, and supporters of both of these.




   OK, trying to keep this non-political ...........Just what would you suggest they [elected officials] do ? I know, I know .... the first knee-jerk reaction is, stop the sale of rapid fire weapons. Sorry but that will not have any affect for _*decades*_ to come if it has any by then, which I doubt very seriously.

OK, a scenario , the NRA donations are rejected, the NRA is heavily fined, and all rapid fire weapons are banned from sale to all.......What happens when the first mass-shooting happens after that?


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2019)

Money talks everywhere but the sound of people chanting in unison in the streets does tend to scare the pants off officials hoping for another term and encourages those seeking to replace them. "Do something" isn't just a message for politicians - it also speaks to the general public. Hand wringing won't change anything.

I'm reminded of the message on a Japanese peace pole that was installed in the garden of the school where I taught for many years. The inscription was "May peace prevail on Earth, and let it begin with me." The same principle applies to all social movements. Individuals, acting together, can move mountains and overcome obstacles. Discussion groups seldom achieve much at all.


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2019)

rgp said:


> OK, trying to keep this non-political ...........Just what would you suggest they [elected officials] do ? I know, I know .... the first knee-jerk reaction is, stop the sale of rapid fire weapons. Sorry but that will not have any affect for _*decades*_ to come if it has any by then, which I doubt very seriously.
> 
> OK, a scenario , the NRA donations are rejected, the NRA is heavily fined, and all rapid fire weapons are banned from sale to all.......What happens when the first mass-shooting happens after that?


This *is* non political. It is about life and death which is surely a serious issue that should never be a political football. You have said why some actions cannot achieve anything. Do you have any suggestions for something that will reduce the death toll? What would you do if you had the power to do something constructive and effective?

To answer your question about elected officials - I would suggest they start representing their constituents instead of their donors. They will not do this until they believe that that is the only way to keep their jobs. They could pass laws holding gun manufacturers and outlets responsible for compensation to victims of massacres and provide an incentive to back off on the promotion of certain categories of weapons such as the ones most commonly used in mass shootings. They could speak out against hate speech and hate sites. They could find ways to use them to identify potential killers and track them. There is much that they could do to start making a difference. I am not talking partisan politics here - the issue is politicians stepping up and being counted for the sake of the people. Have the same courage as the first responders and the parents who died shielding their tiny infant. Let them risk political death as others have faced actual death. This will only happen when enough people demand action.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 7, 2019)

Gun control is not the issue.   Mental illness and psychosis drives hatred, and whatever contributes to that hatred IS the issue. (Like drugs and the MSM, which pervade our sense of peace and/or outrage.)  Timothy McVeigh killed over 160 people and collapsed a multi story building with fertilizer and a U-haul.  Guns are not the problem, and more laws are not the answer.    That said,  I really have no problem with more controls on automatic weapon sales--but I honestly just don't believe that would help.


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## gennie (Aug 7, 2019)

I believe with many of the shooters, they have decided that they don't like the way their life is going, are tired of being an unimportant nobody and think it would take too long and be too much work to change that so they are done with life and want to move on but they know that a simple suicide would probably also go unnoticed except for a few close ones so why not go out in a blaze of glory.  "If I can't be famous , I'll be infamous.  Everybody will know my name and be thinking about ME and I'll be important ,,,,,,, at least for a day"

These events are not about either the victims or the professed 'cause' but about the perpetrator and his self-esteem


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## Sunny (Aug 7, 2019)

C'est Moi, gun control most definitely _is _the issue. The rest of the world has mental illness also, but with stricter (i.e., civilized) gun laws, they have a tiny fraction of the deaths that are occurring in this country. You can't argue with the numbers.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 7, 2019)

Contrary to popular belief, it is still a free country, Sunny.   You may hold tightly to your beliefs and I will do the same.


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## Camper6 (Aug 8, 2019)

rgp said:


> OK, trying to keep this non-political ...........Just what would you suggest they [elected officials] do ? I know, I know .... the first knee-jerk reaction is, stop the sale of rapid fire weapons. Sorry but that will not have any affect for _*decades*_ to come if it has any by then, which I doubt very seriously.
> 
> OK, a scenario , the NRA donations are rejected, the NRA is heavily fined, and all rapid fire weapons are banned from sale to all.......What happens when the first mass-shooting happens after that?


Same thing that always happens.  The politicians and leaders offer their prayers and condolences.

The NRA says it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun.


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## win231 (Aug 8, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> Same thing that always happens.  The politicians and leaders offer their prayers and condolences.
> 
> The NRA says it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun.



OK....how would you suggest stopping a mass shooter??


StarSong said:


> As I said earlier, when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging. What do we do about future mass shooters? How about if we STOP ARMING THEM!



I'm sure you realize it's way too late to "stop arming them," when they're already armed.
I do understand your frustration; you want to feel like something is being done.


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## StarSong (Aug 8, 2019)

We already have over 300 million firearms in this country.  At what point do we say it's time to change course?  When it reaches a billion?  Two billion?  When everyone feels it necessary to walk into Target with an AR strapped across our chests?  When our country suffers terribly from a lack of tourism because it's just too dangerous to come here?  

Don't think the above can't happen - it's just further down the path that we insist on walking.


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## Camper6 (Aug 8, 2019)

win231 said:


> OK....how would you suggest stopping a mass shooter??
> 
> _Well I wouldn't want to rely on luck such as hoping a good guy with a gun shows up.
> 
> ...



_You have to start somewhere and sometime.  One small step for mankind.

When I think of the guy in Texas walking through the church and killing children execution style which is so bad, that they haven't released the video._


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## rgp (Aug 8, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> This *is* non political. It is about life and death which is surely a serious issue that should never be a political football. You have said why some actions cannot achieve anything. Do you have any suggestions for something that will reduce the death toll? What would you do if you had the power to do something constructive and effective?
> 
> To answer your question about elected officials - I would suggest they start representing their constituents instead of their donors. They will not do this until they believe that that is the only way to keep their jobs. They could pass laws holding gun manufacturers and outlets responsible for compensation to victims of massacres and provide an incentive to back off on the promotion of certain categories of weapons such as the ones most commonly used in mass shootings. They could speak out against hate speech and hate sites. They could find ways to use them to identify potential killers and track them. There is much that they could do to start making a difference. I am not talking partisan politics here - the issue is politicians stepping up and being counted for the sake of the people. Have the same courage as the first responders and the parents who died shielding their tiny infant. Let them risk political death as others have faced actual death. This will only happen when enough people demand action.




 "Do you have any suggestions for something that will reduce the death toll? What would you do if you had the power to do something constructive and effective?"

  i have already stated [my] suggestion, it is swift sure prosecution , followed by a swiftly carried out punishment ..death ! I have also said that in the case of most of these killers, a trial is not necessary , when they are known/caught in the act. So death in 24 hours, and announcing it / reporting it on the the news!  

 "They could pass laws holding gun manufacturers and outlets responsible for compensation to victims of massacres and provide an incentive to back off on the promotion of certain categories of weapons such as the ones most commonly used in mass shootings."

 So should auto manufactures be held responsible when a drunk kills with a car? What about Louisville Slugger , should they be held responsible if someone kills with a bat ?

 "They could speak out against hate speech and hate sites. "

 They already do that.

 "They could find ways to use them to identify potential killers and track them. "

 OK, then what? What would you support ? Let's say they have a bead on one, they're tracking him, they think he's close to doing [something] ... do they arrest him ? incarcerate him ? even though he has actually done nothing ...... do they shoot him ? Would support any of this ? What if he is a member of your family ? a friend ........ maybe even your son .......... Would you support them ?


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 8, 2019)

The fact that we have over 300 million guns in America tells me that guns themselves are not the problem.

IMO we need to be looking at who owns the guns and try to enact gun laws that prevent unbalanced people from acquiring them.  Support confiscating guns from people who have a history of mental illness or criminal behavior.  We have a national database for all sorts of things so I don't think that it would be inconceivable to have a database for people who cannot own or purchase weapons along with severe penalties for people who purchase or provide guns to these people.

I also believe that training, background checks, banning internet sales of guns, banning high capacity ammo clips, and automatic weapons should be looked at before we start a discussion about banning guns altogether.

It seems odd that we encourage and celebrate the young people that take up arms to protect and serve in our military but we do not trust young people to handle those same weapons as civilians. 

There has to be an answer based on education, evaluation, etc... that we are missing or not working hard enough to find.


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## rgp (Aug 8, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> The fact that we have over 300 million guns in America tells me that guns themselves are not the problem.
> 
> IMO we need to be looking at who owns the guns and try to enact gun laws that prevent unbalanced people from acquiring them.  Support confiscating guns from people who have a history of mental illness or criminal behavior.  We have a national database for all sorts of things so I don't think that it would be inconceivable to have a database for people who cannot own or purchase weapons along with severe penalties for people who purchase or provide guns to these people.
> 
> ...




  "banning internet sales of guns,"

 Guns can be [sold] on the net, but they must be [obtained] through a licensed dealer. 

 Ya buy the gun from ?? It is then shipped to a licensed dealer , where you go through the background check etc. Then if all clears, the gun is yours.

 Does it ever fail ? I suppose, but we'll never know.


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## RadishRose (Aug 8, 2019)

SUPER COOL DESIGN: Intriguing styling and cool camouflage patterns to create a toy machine gun that *will have your little one giddy with excitement.* Our toy machine gun even comes with a scope that you can look through and a stand to keep it stable and secure on the ground. It's built ready for some serious action! (text from Amazon ad)


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## Sunny (Aug 8, 2019)

That makes the point very well, Radish.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 8, 2019)

Sorry, but kids have been playing with toy guns forever.   I had toy guns as a kid, yet I have managed to never kill anyone...nor did playing with toy guns twist my psyche.    Our children also had toy guns.

We have many rifles, shotguns, and handguns in this house and we plan to keep them.


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## 911 (Aug 8, 2019)

Did I hear it right that the shooter in Ohio also shot and killed his sister? If that’s true, why?


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## win231 (Aug 8, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> _You have to start somewhere and sometime.  One small step for mankind.
> 
> When I think of the guy in Texas walking through the church and killing children execution style which is so bad, that they haven't released the video._



You touched on something important _- "Well, I wouldn't want to wait until a good guy with a gun shows up."  _ The reality is, if more good guys were carrying concealed, a mass shooter could be stopped before the body count gets high.  That's why the shooter is either stopped or commits suicide when police show up; police officers are the_ "good guys with the guns."  _But police can't be everywhere; that's why people have the right to have guns in their homes.  When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

People who blame guns for this are forgetting that fact - that a gun is the only way to stop a killer.


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## Sunny (Aug 8, 2019)

The guns may be the only way to stop a killer (how do they stop them in other countries, rgp, and why are there so few mass shootings, compared to this barbaric country?) but the guns should be in the hands of law enforcement, not every swaggering idiot who boasts about how many guns he has. Somehow I'd rather entrust my safety to the police.

Let's look away from the guns for a moment and think about the level of hatred that inspires these killings. Is it about the same as the level of hatred that inspires people to blow up innocent people with bombs?  I think it is. So, why the hatred?  Who, or what, do we have to blame for it?  Is it (as I believe) a mental sickness?


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## RadishRose (Aug 8, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Let's look away from the guns for a moment and think about the level of hatred that inspires these killings. Is it about the same as the level of hatred that inspires people to blow up innocent people with bombs? I think it is. So, why the hatred? Who, or what, do we have to blame for it? Is it (as I believe) a mental sickness?



Is it a culture which we've fostered as I tried to illustrate by the children's toy gun pics? Or an instinct we're nurturing?

Like @C'est Moi , I played with guns too; cap pistols, etc.  In fact, I still have a wood replica of an M1 in the closet that my father gave me for Xmas the year I wanted the Daisy air rifle I saw in the comic books. He taught me drills.  I didn't turn into a killer either.

But I can't totally discount early conditioning because we are, as a species, killers. We should be more careful.

As a species, most of us have learned to abhor killing our own but will kill animals for thrills, for trophies, for fun.

But IMO, the urge is still there. Those with certain disorders become victims of their rage and go off on a shoot.

We all know if there were no guns, less people would die by use of knives, axes, bombs, vehicles, baseball bats, rocks and stones. That's not the point I struggle to make.

We have to step up our evolution somehow as it appears we are emotionally still in the stone age.


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## Gemma (Aug 8, 2019)

911 said:


> Did I hear it right that the shooter in Ohio also shot and killed his sister? If that’s true, why?


Yes, she was and they don't know why.  The sister's male friend was shot in the torso and listed among the wounded.


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## Butterfly (Aug 8, 2019)

rgp said:


> The sad truth is .... I doubt we will ever stop it. There is just no way to do it. If a person is hell-bent on doing such a thing, there is no way to stop him. Incarcerate everybody that shows the first sign of mental imbalance? That'll never sell, besides we closed up all the asylums . Stop the sale of "those" weapons ? Won't make a dent, again a person hell-bent on doing it, will find a way, find a weapon.
> 
> IMO deterrent is the only option to try. When one of these killers is caught alive, such as El Paso , or Arizona [the one that shot the congress woman] ............ who by the way was standing there literally smoking gun in hand. Order the police to execute him immediately .
> 
> ...



Well, as for your instant justice, there is a little thing called the Constitution that stands squarely in the way of that.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 8, 2019)

This is one of the reasons I am glad I'm old. This has become a very sick world.


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## rgp (Aug 8, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> Well, as for your instant justice, there is a little thing called the Constitution that stands squarely in the way of that.



 If we can change the constitution regarding gun ownership ? ......... We can change it regarding swift justice.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 8, 2019)

AZ Jim said:


> This is one of the reasons I'm old. This has become a very sick world.


   Indeed it has, Jim.


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## Sunny (Aug 8, 2019)

> Well, as for your instant justice, there is a little thing called the Constitution that stands squarely in the way of that.



Butterfly, hear hear!


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## win231 (Aug 8, 2019)

Some of you have questioned the need for "assault rifles that hold lots of ammo."
How 'bout this?  I'm not the bad guy; I'm one of the good guys.  Rats sometimes run in packs.  In a home-invasion robbery situation, I want all the firepower edge I can get, since I'm probably already outnumbered.  And the bad guys might have high-capacity magazines.  In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or a 6-shot shotgun won't do.  Neither will a 6-shot revolver.  We don't get to choose how many armed assailants victimize us.
So, if my magazine holds 30 rounds, that's because I haven't found one that holds 60.  That's MY business.  I'm not responsible for any nutcase mass shooter, so I have no intention of being at a disadvantage because some people don't like the looks or magazine capacity of my rifle.

I'm lucky enough to live in a "nice" neighborhood - many celebrities as neighbors.  Next door, an elderly couple was renting a nice home owned by a big NBA star.  Four home-invasion robbers pulled up in a NEW BMW SUV, broke in through a sliding glass door & robbed and beat the couple - who, of course were helpless due to their ages & being unarmed.  Both were hospitalized for several days.  They never returned to the home & it was sold.
I spent a considerable amount of money on security gates, bars, cameras  and weaponry and training.   Maybe the visible security discouraged them & they chose an easier mark next door - who knows.  There is NO WAY I will ever be at the mercy of thugs.

I live in the real world, whether I like it or not.  And the real world is a MESS.


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## rgp (Aug 8, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Butterfly, hear hear!



 So, you are all here,here for the constitution regarding swift punishment......but you will trample all over it regarding guns ?


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## rgp (Aug 8, 2019)

win231 said:


> Some of you have questioned the need for "assault rifles that hold lots of ammo."
> How 'bout this?  I'm not the bad guy; I'm one of the good guys.  Rats sometimes run in packs.  In a home-invasion robbery situation, I want all the firepower edge I can get, since I'm probably already outnumbered.  And the bad guys might have high-capacity magazines.  In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or a 6-shot shotgun won't do.  Neither will a 6-shot revolver.  We don't get to choose how many armed assailants victimize us.
> So, if my magazine holds 30 rounds, that's because I haven't found one that holds 60.  That's MY business.
> 
> ...




 Hate to say it but do i ever agree with the last sentence !

 Sorry to hear about your neighbors......Stay safe.


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## hypochondriac (Aug 8, 2019)

Some real worlds are messier than others.


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2019)

win231 said:


> Some of you have questioned the need for "assault rifles that hold lots of ammo."
> How 'bout this?  I'm not the bad guy; I'm one of the good guys.  Rats sometimes run in packs.  In a home-invasion robbery situation, I want all the firepower edge I can get, since I'm probably already outnumbered.  And the bad guys might have high-capacity magazines.  In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or a 6-shot shotgun won't do.  Neither will a 6-shot revolver.  We don't get to choose how many armed assailants victimize us.
> So, if my magazine holds 30 rounds, that's because I haven't found one that holds 60.  That's MY business.  I'm not responsible for any nutcase mass shooter, so I have no intention of being at a disadvantage because some people don't like the looks or magazine capacity of my rifle.
> 
> ...


Sad that you have to live in an area like that. Keep safe!


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## Sunny (Aug 9, 2019)

Win, in your eagerness to act out your Rambo fantasies, try not to shoot yourself in the foot.  Or any other innocent people who happen to be around.

The last I heard, we still live in a country with law enforcement. Professionally trained police should be the people dealing with the heavily armed nut cases who are being encouraged and enabled by the NRA.  Not civilians who have decided it's up to them.

And the NRA has to be stopped.


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2019)

What about improving "detection".  We are getting more and more satellite based  cameras and such.  Too bad we can't invent something that detects gunpowder.  Every major courthouse  has metal detectors and alarms and guards - guess we need cheaper and more efficient methods of early detection alerts.


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## Gary O' (Aug 9, 2019)

win231 said:


> In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or *a 6-shot shotgun won't do*



It will
It has
*Before* they got to my door
They didn't have high capacity magazines
But whether they did or not, one blast of my 12 gauge sent 'em scurrying
It's quite the deterrent
Invaders don't like resistance much


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## Gary O' (Aug 9, 2019)

(A bit of a side note to all of this)

Know what’s funny?

Folks get all upset with the very thought of changing the 2nd amendment 

When the actual definition of the word is change

I’m on the wrong side of this thought, but considered it a bit disarmingly humorous


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## Trade (Aug 9, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> (A bit of a side note to all of this)
> 
> Know what’s funny?
> 
> ...



As far as I am concerned we should scrap the whole dman Consituion and start over from scratch. It's way over 200 years old and outdated. Besides that it was wriiten by a bunch of wealthy white dudes that made their money by killing off the native people and stealing their land and then bringing in African slaves to work it for them all while they treated their women like chattel. And I'm supposed to revere them and treat what they wrote as if they were the word of God? Gimmee a break.


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## StarSong (Aug 9, 2019)

Trade said:


> As far as I am concerned we should scrap the whole damn Constitution and start over from scratch. It's way over 200 years old and outdated. Besides that it was written by a bunch of wealthy white dudes that made their money by killing off the native people and stealing their land and then bringing in African slaves to work it for them all while they treated their women like chattel. And I'm supposed to revere them and treat what they wrote as if they were the word of God? Gimmee a break.



Honest to Pete, if this isn't the ever-loving blue-eyed-truth, I don't know what is!


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## win231 (Aug 9, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Win, in your eagerness to act out your Rambo fantasies, try not to shoot yourself in the foot.  Or any other innocent people who happen to be around.
> 
> The last I heard, we still live in a country with law enforcement. Professionally trained police should be the people dealing with the heavily armed nut cases who are being encouraged and enabled by the NRA.  Not civilians who have decided it's up to them.
> 
> And the NRA has to be stopped.



My need for self defense means I have "Rambo fantasies?"  Only in the mind of a moron.  Please accept my deepest sympathies.  Perhaps you can't help it.
I'd gladly rely on "professionally-trained police;" as soon as police are able to be here 24/7 to prevent a crime.  Even you (with your limited intelligence) know that's not possible.
My safety IS up to me.  You are free to deal with your safety any way you choose.  A smart person knows their limitations.


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2019)

win231 said:


> My need for self defense means I have "Rambo fantasies?"  Only in the mind of a moron.  Please accept my deepest sympathies.  Perhaps you can't help it.
> I'd gladly rely on "professionally-trained police;" as soon as police are able to be here 24/7 to prevent a crime.  Even you (with your limited intelligence) know that's not possible.
> My safety IS up to me.  You are free to deal with your safety any way you choose.  A smart person knows their limitations.




 +1...


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## Sunny (Aug 9, 2019)

> Rats sometimes run in packs.  In a home-invasion robbery situation, I want all the firepower edge I can get, since I'm probably already outnumbered.  And the bad guys might have high-capacity magazines.  In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or a 6-shot shotgun won't do.  Neither will a 6-shot revolver.  We don't get to choose how many armed assailants victimize us.
> So, if my magazine holds 30 rounds, that's because I haven't found one that holds 60.  That's MY business.  I'm not responsible for any nutcase mass shooter, so I have no intention of being at a disadvantage because some people don't like the looks or magazine capacity of my rifle.



Looks like I hit a nerve with my labeling your Rambo fantasies for what they are, Win.  Even us morons with "limited intelligence" can see it; look up Rambo and see if the definition doesn't sound like someone familiar. 

Win, you probably have your fingers stuck in your ears because you don't want to hear the truth, but the great majority of the American public (including the gun-owners) want more stringent gun control laws. It will just be a matter of time (and how many more tragic killings?)  before the NRA and its willing slaves are forced to give in, and stop bribing our lawmakers. Whether you like it or not, that's what will happen.


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## 911 (Aug 9, 2019)

Liberty said:


> What about improving "detection".  We are getting more and more satellite based  cameras and such.  Too bad we can't invent something that detects gunpowder.  Every major courthouse  has metal detectors and alarms and guards - guess we need cheaper and more efficient methods of early detection alerts.



We already have something that detects gunpowder. They are called “dogs.”


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## win231 (Aug 9, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Looks like I hit a nerve with my labeling your Rambo fantasies for what they are, Win.  Even us morons with "limited intelligence" can see it; look up Rambo and see if the definition doesn't sound like someone familiar.
> 
> Win, you probably have your fingers stuck in your ears because you don't want to hear the truth, but the great majority of the American public (including the gun-owners) want more stringent gun control laws. It will just be a matter of time (and how many more tragic killings?)  before the NRA and its willing slaves are forced to give in, and stop bribing our lawmakers. Whether you like it or not, that's what will happen.



As a responsible gun owner, I'm as much to blame for mass shooters as drunk drivers & street racers are for manslaughter, since I also own a car. Even you can see where the "stupid" comes in.  You think my driving privilege should be restricted because Ted Kennedy drove drunk & killed his passenger?   And, I should be required to have a vasectomy because my neighbor has too many kids? 

Whether or not the "great majority of the American public wants more stringent gun control laws" is of no concern to me.  My concern is my safety & that of my loved ones.  Nor is the NRA; I'm not a member.  I live my life how I choose & the great majority can live theirs as they choose.  As you can.
No, you didn't hit a nerve.  You hit a funny bone.  Ignorance tends to do that.


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2019)

911 said:


> We already have something that detects gunpowder. They are called “dogs.”


Wasn't talking about the living kind...lol. Hard to have that many "trained sniffing" dogs available you know...like at every big box door.  Necessity is the mother of invention so perhaps we will see more "device" inventions in this area.  We can only hope, I guess.


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## Sunny (Aug 9, 2019)

Just FYI,Win, I have been called many things, but "stupid" has never been one of them.   My response to that is the same as Forrest Gump's:  "Stupid is as stupid does."

Win, we've already covered all your red herrings. Dragging cars, knives, and anything else into the argument in an attempt to deflect attention away from  military-grade weapons that the mentally deranged are permitted to buy apparently with no restrictions, doesn't work as an argument; it never has.  Those other things exist for other purposes than killing. They are tools, or to use one of your examples, body parts. Anything can be abused. But only one of the things under discussion exists to kill as many people as possible in the shortest span of time, and has no other purpose.

Good grief, a kindergarten child could understand this! Do you go into name-calling mode when your argument is obviously getting weaker and weaker? Or are you a mouthpiece for the NRA, providing fodder for those pathetic men who need to prove, at least to themselves, how macho they are?

(And by the way, all this name-calling you are directing my way does absolutely nothing to support your argument. It just shows how weak that argument is. Only schoolyard bullies resort to that when they are losing an argument. So much for our "friendly" forum.)

You keep repeating the fact that I am free to live my life as I choose.  That's very nice of you, to give me permission, but I really don't need your permission to do exactly that.  

So try taking a deep breath and focus on the issue.  Let's do without the childishness.


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## DaveA (Aug 9, 2019)

win231 said:


> Some of you have questioned the need for "assault rifles that hold lots of ammo."
> How 'bout this?  I'm not the bad guy; I'm one of the good guys.  Rats sometimes run in packs.  In a home-invasion robbery situation, I want all the firepower edge I can get, since I'm probably already outnumbered.  And the bad guys might have high-capacity magazines.  In that scenario, a 4-shot hunting rifle or a 6-shot shotgun won't do.  Neither will a 6-shot revolver.  We don't get to choose how many armed assailants victimize us.
> So, if my magazine holds 30 rounds, that's because I haven't found one that holds 60.  That's MY business.  I'm not responsible for any nutcase mass shooter, so I have no intention of being at a disadvantage because some people don't like the looks or magazine capacity of my rifle.
> 
> ...


Good post, Win.  I got more laughs out of this than anything else I've seen lately.  I can see where being quite wealthy and living in a crime ravaged neighborhood can be tough.  You should send this post to the NRA's "Rifleman" magazine.  They've got a monthly page, "The Armed Citizen", I believe. They have all kinds of bad situations including one wheel chair bound old lady, who's always got her piece handy in case of an invasion.  I doubt if she could handle a high capacity assault rifle.  A few rounds and the recoil would roll her out of the room and back into the bedroom.

Good post - -keep 'em coming.


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## Liberty (Aug 9, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Wasn't talking about the living kind...lol. Hard to have that many "trained sniffing" dogs available you know...like at every big box door.  Necessity is the mother of invention so perhaps we will see more "device" inventions in this area.  We can only hope, I guess.


Hey, 911... good idea though...how 'bout "Robomutt"...lol.  That would be and easy keeper.


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Just FYI,Win, I have been called many things, but "stupid" has never been one of them.   My response to that is the same as Forrest Gump's:  "Stupid is as stupid does."
> 
> Win, we've already covered all your red herrings. Dragging cars, knives, and anything else into the argument in an attempt to deflect attention away from  military-grade weapons that the mentally deranged are permitted to buy apparently with no restrictions, doesn't work as an argument; it never has.  Those other things exist for other purposes than killing. They are tools, or to use one of your examples, body parts. Anything can be abused. But only one of the things under discussion exists to kill as many people as possible in the shortest span of time, and has no other purpose.
> 
> ...




  Interesting .... you chastise him for name calling, yet you are the one that started it all with the "Rambo" reference. 
Perhaps the reduction in childishness should start with you ?


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## fmdog44 (Aug 9, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> Sorry, but kids have been playing with toy guns forever.   I had toy guns as a kid, yet I have managed to never kill anyone...nor did playing with toy guns twist my psyche.    Our children also had toy guns.
> 
> We have many rifles, shotguns, and handguns in this house and we plan to keep them.


not in the quantities of today and the constant surrounding of guns in all medias. New heroes kill bad guys vs. putting them in jail like "old days". No one can deny the media smothering everyone with hideous amounts of violence. Watch an action movie or super hero movie and count the number of confrontations.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 9, 2019)

Walk thru a Walmart and count the number of violent games, toys, comic books, posters and other goodies for our children to hug and love.


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## Butterfly (Aug 9, 2019)

rgp said:


> If we can change the constitution regarding gun ownership ? ......... We can change it regarding swift justice.



A constitutional amendment takes years and years.  First it has to be passed in congress with a 2/3 majority of the house and senate.  Then it must be ratified by 3/4 of the states.   Of over 11,000 proposed amendments, only 27 have been ratified in the history of the United States.

I'm doubtful that a gun ownership amendment would squeak through, but I'm absolutely certain that a "swift justice" amendment as you have described would never get passed and ratified.


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## Warrigal (Aug 9, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> A constitutional amendment takes years and years.  First it has to be passed in congress with a 2/3 majority of the house and senate.  Then it must be ratified by 3/4 of the states.   Of over 11,000 proposed amendments, only 27 have been ratified in the history of the United States.
> 
> I'm doubtful that a gun ownership amendment would squeak through, but I'm absolutely certain that a "swift justice" amendment as you have described would never get passed and ratified.


It took William Wilberforce 20 years of campaigning in parliament to successfully abolish the English slave trade. No-one ever finds  reform easy but some reforms are worth the effort. It takes dreamers like John Lennon singing songs such as Imagine and it takes activists like Martin Luther King to raise awareness of the need for change. There will always be resistance from people who think they have something to lose. Women's suffrage was resisted by men who thought their world would come crashing down if their wives could vote. However, in the end, important reforms make the world better for everyone.

The important thing is to imagine the benefits of the reform and keep moving towards that goal with heart, hand and voice.


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## win231 (Aug 9, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Just FYI,Win, I have been called many things, but "stupid" has never been one of them.   My response to that is the same as Forrest Gump's:  "Stupid is as stupid does."
> 
> Win, we've already covered all your red herrings. Dragging cars, knives, and anything else into the argument in an attempt to deflect attention away from  military-grade weapons that the mentally deranged are permitted to buy apparently with no restrictions, doesn't work as an argument; it never has.  Those other things exist for other purposes than killing. They are tools, or to use one of your examples, body parts. Anything can be abused. But only one of the things under discussion exists to kill as many people as possible in the shortest span of time, and has no other purpose.
> 
> ...



Uh....who started the "name calling," Miss Sunny?

Good idea - "Doing without the childishness."  Let's start with you.


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## win231 (Aug 9, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> not in the quantities of today and the constant surrounding of guns in all medias. New heroes kill bad guys vs. putting them in jail like "old days". No one can deny the media smothering everyone with hideous amounts of violence. Watch an action movie or super hero movie and count the number of confrontations.


Yes....people are sometimes influenced by movies & video games.
Example:  Many years ago, my co-workers & I were discussing what a great movie  "Cape Fear" was; (the color version with Robert DeNiro & Nick Nolte).  We started imitating Joe Don Baker when he called DeNiro a "White Trash Piece of S--t."  We (jokingly) called each other that many times.


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## Warrigal (Aug 9, 2019)

Video games are responsible - don't make me laff.

Walmart had mass murderers in its stores just days ago and has taken the extreme decision to “*temporarily* remove advertising displays for violent video games".



> A Walmart spokesperson said:
> 
> 
> > “We’ve taken this action out of respect for the incidents of the past week, and this action does not reflect a long-term change in our video game assortment.”





> Fred Guttenberg—whose 14 year-old daughter Jaime was murdered at her high school in Parkland—let the billion dollar retail chain know what he thought of their decision.
> 
> "My daughter did not die in Parkland because of video games.  She died because of weapons and ammunition that was available for purchase in Walmart. Stop hiding behind made up issues and come to grips with the reality of your role in gun violence."



Walmart has no intention of removing guns and ammo from their stores but thank God they won't advertise violent video games until the controversy dies down? Well done Walmart, I don't think !!!


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> A constitutional amendment takes years and years.  First it has to be passed in congress with a 2/3 majority of the house and senate.  Then it must be ratified by 3/4 of the states.   Of over 11,000 proposed amendments, only 27 have been ratified in the history of the United States.
> 
> I'm doubtful that a gun ownership amendment would squeak through, but I'm absolutely certain that a "swift justice" amendment as you have described would never get passed and ratified.




 You may be right ? We will likely never know . That said, i do believe the one with the more positive effect on society would be a change in our justice system. The appeals / appellate court, have just become ridiculous .


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## Sunny (Aug 10, 2019)

About Walmart and the video games.... of course they are using this as a cheap attempt to convince everyone that they are really good guys and are doing their best to bring an end to gun violence. And probably some will buy into it.

Actually, I do think violent video games, and also violent arcade games, toy guns, etc. should be consigned to the medieval past. I can remember seeing an extremely violent arcade game at an arcade at the beach, years ago. (I bet it's still there!)  The kid playing the game holds a "gun," and every time a human figure pops up, he gets to shoot, racking up points.

I can also remember with some horror, one of my son's favorite toys, when he was about 4-5. It was a "machine gun," with a crank to turn which made a loud putt-putt sound. It never occurred to me that he never should have had that toy; in those days, all little boys had toy guns. I think the attraction was the putt-putt sound rather than any fantasies of violence; the same thing could have been accomplished by a toy lawn mower. And no, he didn't grow up to be a mass murderer; in fact, he hates guns. And he turned out just fine. But I'm still sorry I ever got him that toy, just as a general principal. We all evolve, some of us apparently more quickly than others.

But to get back to Walmart, it would be a step in the right direction to remove those damn games. That IN ADDITION to getting our legislators to enact strong gun control laws. It would at least be a first step, providing they don't just put the games back next week.


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## Trade (Aug 10, 2019)

Yep. We didn't have any violent toys back when I was a kid.


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## squatting dog (Aug 10, 2019)

Me either.


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## Trade (Aug 10, 2019)

No violent TV shows either.


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## RadishRose (Aug 10, 2019)




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## Aunt Bea (Aug 10, 2019)

I don't buy into the theory about violent games, videos, toys, etc...

IMO the big change from when I was growing up vs today is the lack of contact with people that care about you, care for you, educate/train you, etc...  Today parents are busy working, kids are raised in daycare and when they are with family many times the parents are spending more time with their iPhones, computers, etc... than they are with their children.

_“Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”_- Aristotle


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2019)

"But to get back to Walmart, it would be a step in the right direction to remove those damn games. That IN ADDITION to getting our legislators to enact strong gun control laws. It would at least be a first step, providing they don't just put the games back next week. "

   Walmart or whomever , will put on the shelves, whatever sells. It's just that simple. It is the American free enterprise system.

  I don't think the games have anymore influence than Wiley Coyote & Roadrunner had 50 years ago. But, what i think individually really doesn't matter. If the customers en'mass want the games ? and they sell well ? Then the games will be made available.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 10, 2019)

rgp said:


> "But to get back to Walmart, it would be a step in the right direction to remove those damn games. That IN ADDITION to getting our legislators to enact strong gun control laws. It would at least be a first step, providing they don't just put the games back next week. "
> 
> Walmart or whomever , will put on the shelves, whatever sells. It's just that simple. It is the American free enterprise system.
> 
> I don't think the games have anymore influence than Wiley Coyote & Roadrunner had 50 years ago. But, what i think individually really doesn't matter. If the customers en'mass want the games ? and they sell well ? Then the games will be made available.


 Exactly.   Only a small mind would demonize Walmart; apparently there is a market and they are in business.  If something is legal to sell, then sell it. People are ridiculous with all the controls they want put on our civil liberties.


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## Sunny (Aug 10, 2019)

> Only a small mind would demonize Walmart; apparently there is a market and they are in business.  If something is legal to sell, then sell it. People are ridiculous with all the controls they want put on our civil liberties.



C'est moi, where has anyone suggested putting "controls" on Walmart's civil liberties?  Before your knickers get irrevocably tied up in a knot defending the "rights" of this megabusiness, please note that even Walmart themselves aren't complaining, or making any statements about infringements on their "rights."  They themselves said this is basically a PR move, and they are _temporarily _removing the violent games.

Geez Louise!


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## C'est Moi (Aug 10, 2019)

Sunny said:


> C'est moi, where has anyone suggested putting "controls" on Walmart's civil liberties?  Before your knickers get irrevocably tied up in a knot defending the "rights" of this megabusiness, please note that even Walmart themselves aren't complaining, or making any statements about infringements on their "rights."  They themselves said this is basically a PR move, and they are _temporarily _removing the violent games.
> 
> Geez Louise!


I said nothing about Walmart's civil liberties.   I said "OUR" civil liberties.


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## Sunny (Aug 11, 2019)

And which ones of "OUR" civil liberties" are "WE" being deprived of?  The right to go into a store and buy a weapon of mass murder, with no checks on our sanity or criminal past?  

If something is legal to sell, then it should be sold, end of discussion?  What if, through some loophole, it was legal to sell some poison so toxic that a few drops in the water supply could kill thousands of people?  But this poison is too new to be restricted, so Walmart should just go ahead and sell it to anyone who wants it?  Really, no restrictions, no matter what?  Because the "civil liberties" of Walmart and their customers are more important than preventing the murder of all those innocent people?

I'm curious. Do you think anyone wanting to drive a car should be allowed to do so on public roads, whether they have a license or not? Even if they've never learned to drive? Or is that another infringement of their "civil liberties?"

P.S. Anyway, what's with the straw man you've set up? Who is depriving Walmart of the right to sell violent games, or your right to buy them?  From what I've read here, it was Walmart themselves who removed the games (temporarily) from the shelves.  They probably saw the storm clouds gathering, and did it as a PR measure.


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## rgp (Aug 11, 2019)

Sunny said:


> And which ones of "OUR" civil liberties" are "WE" being deprived of?  The right to go into a store and buy a weapon of mass murder, with no checks on our sanity or criminal past?
> 
> If something is legal to sell, then it should be sold, end of discussion?  What if, through some loophole, it was legal to sell some poison so toxic that a few drops in the water supply could kill thousands of people?  But this poison is too new to be restricted, so Walmart should just go ahead and sell it to anyone who wants it?  Really, no restrictions, no matter what?  Because the "civil liberties" of Walmart and their customers are more important than preventing the murder of all those innocent people?
> 
> ...





 You said ....... "And which ones of "OUR" civil liberties" are "WE" being deprived of? The right to go into a store and buy a weapon of mass murder, with no checks on our sanity or criminal past?  "

  Same background check at the Walmart gun counter, as at any gun store. They can only scrutinize the information available. Felony past is readily available. Doctor/patient privilege protects some [most] past mental issues. 


  You said........"I'm curious. Do you think anyone wanting to drive a car should be allowed to do so on public roads, whether they have a license or not? Even if they've never learned to drive? Or is that another infringement of their "civil liberties?"


 Driving is a privilege that must be applied for. The right to bear arms is in the Constitution [second amendment] 


 P.S. People drive all the time without a license or endorsement .


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## fmdog44 (Aug 11, 2019)

On 08/10/19 a fool light of firecrackers in a mall in Houston, Tx as a prank and everyone ran for their lives. Hopefully the prankster will be caught and get his/her just deserve. How stupid can a person be?


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2019)

There apparently is no bottom limit, fmdog.


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## win231 (Aug 12, 2019)

No......really....what are those evil assault rifles for?  Well, here is one family that is grateful their son had one:  (Hint:  family safe, but 3 dirtbags at room temperature, female mastermind of the home invasion - turned herself in (very upset at the loss of her "friends")  And SHE will be charged with their deaths.   She's 21 & A MOTHER OF 3.  Nice to see an ideal outcome.  Looks like the son had a "Rambo Complex."


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2019)

And, my case rests.


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## squatting dog (Aug 12, 2019)

All this hand wringing. Let's look at the actual amendments.

1st amendment... 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free  exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

4th amendment
THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place 
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

2nd amendment
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Please note the founding fathers specifically spelled out THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE when writing these amendment. That makes it a personal RIGHT in my mind. I fail to see how one could see it any other way.


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## rgp (Aug 12, 2019)

Sunny said:


> And, my case rests.




 Really ? What case would that be ? It was a rapid fire weapon , in the hands of a good guy, and he did a good job !

  Three P.O.S. Home invasion thugs dead . That's a good thing.


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## win231 (Aug 12, 2019)

Sunny said:


> And, my case rests.


Good call!


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## Camper6 (Aug 12, 2019)

Find out who were the People when the 2nd was written. It wasn't everybody.


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## Warrigal (Aug 12, 2019)

New Zealand has a very small population - around 4 million people.

After the mosque massacres in Christchurch the government took immediate action, prohibiting a range of firearms. These weapons could be handed in under amnesty and voluntary gun buy backs were organised around the country starting on July 13.

The result?

*"*A total of 10,242 firearms have been handed into NZ Police as part of the firearms buy-back scheme, as of 11 August," New Zealand police said in the statement.

"Additionally, another 1,269 firearms have been handed in under amnesty. A range of prohibited firearms have been handed in." 

The police are happy with this result and are planning more buy back events.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 12, 2019)

Gun control has never been about GUNS. It has always been about CONTROL.


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## win231 (Aug 12, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> Find out who were the People when the 2nd was written. It wasn't everybody.


That's a matter of history.  History interests some people, but not me.  My concern is living in the world as it is NOW as safely as I can without becoming a victim an without my loved ones becoming victims.  As long as criminals are released from prison early, after serving a fraction of their sentences & crazies full of hate are roaming around free, I'll do whatever I can to stay safe.  The 2nd Amendment was written in different times.


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## Warrigal (Aug 12, 2019)

C'est Moi, can you explain your statement for this confused Aussie?

Is it just a matter of semantics?
Would the words 'firearms legislation' make a difference?


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## C'est Moi (Aug 12, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> C'est Moi, can you explain your statement for this confused Aussie?
> 
> Is it just a matter of semantics?
> Would the words 'firearms legislation' make a difference?


No.  It's about chipping away at our rights and the foundation of what makes America free.   Some people want to control far too much.


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## Sunny (Aug 13, 2019)

> The 2nd Amendment was written in different times.



Why, Win, you're actually beginning to make sense!


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## Trade (Aug 13, 2019)

win231 said:


> No......really....what are those evil assault rifles for?  Well, here is one family that is grateful their son had one:  (Hint:  family safe, but 3 dirtbags at room temperature, female mastermind of the home invasion - turned herself in (very upset at the loss of her "friends")  And SHE will be charged with their deaths.   She's 21 & A MOTHER OF 3.  Nice to see an ideal outcome.  Looks like the son had a "Rambo Complex."



If it had been my house they would have been shot with my Ruger .357 magnum.  That would have been more than adequate.


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## Gary O' (Aug 13, 2019)

Trade said:


> If it had been my house they would have been shot with my Ruger .357 magnum. That would have been more than adequate


I have that one (GP-100)
Sweet basic piece
No muss, no fuss
Fits well in the hand


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## Trade (Aug 13, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> I have that one (GP-100)
> Sweet basic piece
> No muss, no fuss
> Fits well in the hand



Exactly.


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## Gary O' (Aug 13, 2019)

Trade said:


> Exactly.


And extremely substantial
It's my nightstand companion


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## Trade (Aug 13, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> And extremely substantial
> It's my nightstand companion



I keep mine just under the bed.

Loaded with 6 rounds of Federal 130 gr Hydra-Shok JHP


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## Camper6 (Aug 13, 2019)

win231 said:


> That's a matter of history.  History interests some people, but not me.  My concern is living in the world as it is NOW as safely as I can without becoming a victim an without my loved ones becoming victims.  As long as criminals are released from prison early, after serving a fraction of their sentences & crazies full of hate are roaming around free, I'll do whatever I can to stay safe.  The 2nd Amendment was written in different times.


I understand but when you get into the law you have to read the law when it was written when it comes to the Constitution.
I often wonder why there are so many crazies.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 13, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> I often wonder why there are so many crazies.


The very fact that there are "so many crazies" is the best argument for bearing arms.


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## win231 (Aug 13, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> The very fact that there are "so many crazies" is the best argument for bearing arms.


Exactly the point that many don't get.....or perhaps they don't want to get.


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## Camper6 (Aug 13, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> The very fact that there are "so many crazies" is the best argument for bearing arms.


That you need those arms speaks volumes.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 13, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> That you need those arms speaks volumes.


I don't "need" them yet, but someday I might.


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## Camper6 (Aug 13, 2019)

What is going to change? It can't get any worse? Or can it?


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