# Ban All Sharia Muslims From U.S. Entry-------Agree Or Disagree?



## Lon (Jun 24, 2016)

Since Muslims of the Sharia persuasion believe that Sharia Law supercedes all other laws why would we ever want to allow them entry?


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## Guitarist (Jun 24, 2016)

Because we mustn't be prejudiced against_ anyone,_ especially if their beliefs differ from our own. This is _America._  We must let in -- nay, we must _welcome_ -- everyone even if they have no respect for us or our way of life and want to kill us all.

It's kinda like the political version of the American reputation for eating junk food.  One way or another, we're determined to destroy our own health.


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## tnthomas (Jun 24, 2016)

Another incendiary thread?


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Hmmm. Here we go again. Lol. Canuckistan gots about thirty thousand Syrian refugees, most of them Muslims! Where oh where is the carnage? By the way, it is Sharia not Shaira. I find the obsession with a so called hostile  takeover by sharia law 

wielding militants puzzling--considering the prevalence of fear mongering attempts by certain racist, homophobic, misogynistic fringe elements of the religious right to enforce their particular interpretation of "God's Law."


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## Lon (Jun 24, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> Another incendiary thread?
> 
> 
> View attachment 30235


 I screwed up, It's Sharia Law I am talking about & hardly a incendiary thread Thomas. But why would we wish to have anyone gain entry to our respective countries when they are telling you ahead of time that they will not adhere to any of your laws.


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## tnthomas (Jun 24, 2016)

Lon said:


> I screwed up, It's Sharia Law I am talking about & hardly a incendiary thread Thomas. But why would we wish to have anyone gain entry to our respective countries when they are telling you ahead of time that they will not adhere to any of your laws.



Alright Lon, just for the sake of argument- question: how are U.S. authorities going to *identify* "Muslims of the Sharia persuasion"?  Is that information going to be on an ID card hung around their neck, on a lanyard?   Maybe it would be appropriate to have Muslims wear an emblem that says "Muslim", the same way that the Jews were required to do, in Nazi Germany?    




The same system would also work with Mexicans, or any other undesirable group of people that _should-be_ barred from entry into the U.S.


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## Lon (Jun 24, 2016)

What would be wrong with a simple questionnaire?


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## tnthomas (Jun 24, 2016)

Lon said:


> What would be wrong with a simple questionnaire?



Well, if it is true that(as you said) "they are telling you ahead of time that they will not adhere to any of your laws", then what makes you think that answering a questionnaire will be effective?  Just marking the "No" box would keep them off the ban list, all there is to it.


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## fureverywhere (Jun 24, 2016)

Because a simple questionnaire even...It's about banning a religion. Just like the gun lobby equates any restrictions on firearms as a step towards taking all the guns...Banning undesirables based on faith was the first step in The Final Solution. And has been said earlier...where might that go? The Mexicans? Perhaps a bunch of African countries? The Russians? Oh and there are still any number of Americans not too happy with Jews either.

So we go from "Give us your poor huddled masses" to "You can't come in until we make sure you're not a loser or terrorist".


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Don't forget them pinko Canucks. We gots all them Muslim refugees just waiting to invade/destroy America!!


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## Lon (Jun 24, 2016)

I believe that one of the best sources for recruiting new Isis followers is from Muslims that adhere to Sharia Law. Sharia Law is fundamentally opposite Western morality, culture and laws. These are the Muslims that pose a real threat and fitting in with Western Culture just ain't gonna happen. There is no way they can assimilate as other groups like Asians, Mexicans etc. have. There has to be a effective way to screen this particular group of Muslims and bar their entry.


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## fureverywhere (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh I forgot the homosexuals and gypsies...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Really? Canuckistan has many Muslims who believe in some form of Sharia. However, they obey the laws of the land, just as the rest of us do. In my experience while working with refugees, the biggest draw to ISIL often lies in the residue left by the 

western powers where we often interfered/destroyed/toppled gov'ts, cultures who live according to laws and mores different from our own, usually out of greed/maintenance of power dynamics. It would piss me off too. How incredibly naive to think we would not inevitably reap the whirlwind.


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Beautifully, elequently expressed Fur!


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Either all of us matter, or none of us do.


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## Wrigley's (Jun 24, 2016)

Some of you guys are being pretty harsh.

Lon, take Muslims and Sharia law out of it. And let's say, hypothetically, that there is a mass of immigrants who want entry into the USA who actually declare that they have their own set of laws, and will live by those laws above all other laws. Should they be allowed to live here? (Well, Native Americans and Quakers do, but putting that aside...) 

Everyone who lives here must obey federal and state laws or face charges and possible punishment.


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## Guitarist (Jun 24, 2016)

Of course all of us matter.

That's the whole point.  

To terrorists, NONE of us matter.  Not even they themselves, to themselves.  

Why is this so hard for some people to get?


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## tnthomas (Jun 24, 2016)

Lon said:


> I believe that one of the best sources for recruiting new Isis followers is from Muslims that adhere to Sharia Law. Sharia Law is fundamentally opposite Western morality, culture and laws. These are the Muslims that pose a real threat and fitting in with Western Culture just ain't gonna happen. There is no way they can assimilate as other groups like Asians, Mexicans etc. have. There has to be a effective way to screen this particular group of Muslims and bar their entry.



Screening_ any_ group of humans in order to determine their intentions and attitudes is not easy, especially if they wanted to conceal their intents.    Law enforcement would love such a tool, but alas it remains elusive.     Polygraphs(lie detector test) require multiple sessions(pre-poly interviews) and personnel, time consuming.   The polygraph test is most effective when the test subject believes that it is accurate, and has some kind of emotional stake in being "passed".    Still, not admissible as evidence in court.


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Hmm. I don't find it hard to get in the least. Presently, I am far more afraid of homegrown terrorists than immigrants. I actually work and socialise with Muslims. They are people just like us.


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## Lon (Jun 24, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm. I don't find it hard to get in the least. Presently, I am far more afraid of homegrown terrorists than immigrants. I actually work and socialise with Muslims. They are people just like us.



Of course they are people just like us, How many of the Muslims that you work with and socialize with follow Sharia Law?


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Lon said:


> Of course they are people just like us, How many of the Muslims that you work with and socialize with follow Sharia Law?


In their hearts, Lon, I have no idea. However, like the rest of us, outwardly they follow Canadian law.


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## Manatee (Jun 24, 2016)

There are plenty of Muslim countries they can go to and harmonize with the indigenous population, we don't need them here.


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Manatee said:


> There are plenty of Muslim countries they can go to and harmonize with the indigenous population, we don't need them here.


Sadly, they can't. They come here all too often to avoid persecution, starvation, war, slavery, death. Ohhhh, the stories my refugees have, particularly the children. So easy to demonise all Muslims because of a few.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 24, 2016)

I disagree Lon, they shouldn't all be banned from US entry.  As Wrigley's said, everyone who lives here must abide by Federal and State laws of the US or face charges.


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## tnthomas (Jun 24, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> I disagree Lon, they shouldn't all be banned from US entry.  As Wrigley's said, everyone who lives here must abide by Federal and State laws of the US or face charges.



Yes, our system of justice does not provide for proactive measures against people who "might" break the law, or cause problems.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 24, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> ...the biggest draw to ISIL often lies in the residue left by the
> western powers where we often interfered/destroyed/toppled gov'ts, cultures who live according to laws and mores different from our own, usually out of greed/maintenance of power dynamics. It would piss me off too. How incredibly naive to think we would not inevitably reap the whirlwind.



Good point!


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## fureverywhere (Jun 24, 2016)

Look at the bastard in South Carolina...he didn't pledge allegiance to ISIS and he was a citizen white bread with legal weapons...Muslims are not the issue here. United States gun laws ARE the issue. But that gets thrown under the bus. No it's them furriners.


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## Guitarist (Jun 24, 2016)

Wrigley's said:


> Some of you guys are being pretty harsh.
> 
> Lon, take Muslims and Sharia law out of it. And let's say, hypothetically, that there is a mass of immigrants who want entry into the USA who actually declare that they have their own set of laws, and will live by those laws above all other laws. Should they be allowed to live here? (Well, Native Americans and Quakers do, but putting that aside...)
> 
> Everyone who lives here must obey federal and state laws or face charges and possible punishment.



What do you mean about Quakers?  They don't put "their laws" above all other laws.  They don't _hav_e any laws of their own, other than the laws of the countries where they live.

What in the ..... ??? (shaking my head in perplexity)


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Hmmm? I recall the Quaker underground being in place during the Vietnam War. I personally picked up draft resistors in Port Angeles that came through it. They did the same to help slaves back in the day.


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## Bettyann (Jun 24, 2016)

hmmmmm....and how have "Christians" harmed our country....ok....let me count the ways.... No...I don't have enough energy to describe what we do in other countries to 'bad' people (joke) ... and all mass murders in our country were perpetrated by Christians...except for a handful... No, I know. Its wrong to blame ALL Christians...just like its wrong to pick on ANY particular group...
And let's please bear in mind that the controlled media works to keep us all divided...because blaming is Fear Based...and when we live in Fear we are very easy to control. ...I can't resist mentioning the Christian minister who openly (in his sermon) proclaimed that Mateen was doing God's work in killing the gays in Orlando and that he was sorry the police killed him so he couldn't kill more. NOW. It's all so individual...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2016)

Isolationism/xenophobia are often comfortable go tos when faced with unpalatable truths.


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## Ruthanne (Jun 25, 2016)

Had to look that one up:
*Xenophobia is the fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity.[SUP][3][/SUP]Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unreal, stereotyped and exotic quality".[SUP][3[/SUP]*


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## tnthomas (Jun 25, 2016)

Bettyann said:


> ...I can't resist mentioning the Christian minister who openly (in his sermon) proclaimed that Mateen was doing God's work in killing the gays in Orlando and that he was sorry the police killed him so he couldn't kill more. NOW. It's all so individual...



Seriously, and who was that?   If in fact this is true, his sermon _might not_ be fully protected under the First Amendment, but may be  considered to be Hate Speech, which is not protected.


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## Sunny (Jun 25, 2016)

It seems to me that many of the participants in this discussion are forgetting that our First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech and of worship. Saying that you don't like the laws of this country is in
no way a criminal act. People are not criminals until they do something illegal. And the day that we lose the distinction between saying and doing will be the day that this stops being America and becomes a
fascist state.

The idea of barring Muslims (Sharia Muslims or other types) is asinine, and unenforceable even if it were permitted by our Constitution. It makes as much sense as declaring that people must use the rest room
that conforms to the gender on their birth certificate. How on earth could that ever be enforced? Are we supposed to walk around with our birth certificate all the time, and show it to the bathroom guard before we
are allowed to enter? These rabble rousing ideas, designed to appeal to the fearful right wing, don't hold up for one second of serious thought. They are just designed to get the crowd cheering (and voting, and
maybe rioting.)


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## tnthomas (Jun 25, 2016)

Sunny said:


> It seems to me that many of the participants in this discussion are forgetting that our First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech and of worship. Saying that you don't like the laws of this country is in
> no way a criminal act. People are not criminals until they do something illegal. And the day that we lose the distinction between saying and doing will be the day that this stops being America and becomes a
> fascist state.
> 
> ...



Well put, that's what I was attempting to say, in post #25.


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## Sunny (Jun 25, 2016)

Thanks, Tn. Also thanks for repeating my note in a quote, which makes it more readable. (I don't know what happened; it looks as if my browser is so angry about this that it's gasping for breath!)


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## Guitarist (Jun 25, 2016)

Anyone here hear of the Sharia Neighborhood Watch gangs in Canada?  Groups of young Muslim men, apparently armed, patrolling the borders of their neighborhoods.

There are no-go areas in Britain where police advise native-born British people (of whatever race, I imagine) to not go.  Areas where married couples are not allowed to walk together.  Talk about not being able to do something not only legal -- but positive -- in your own country, because of a bunch of immigrants!


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

Guitarist said:


> Anyone here hear of the Sharia Neighborhood Watch gangs in Canada?  Groups of young Muslim men, apparently armed, patrolling the borders of their neighborhoods.
> 
> There are no-go areas in Britain where police advise native-born British people (of whatever race, I imagine) to not go.  Areas where married couples are not allowed to walk together.  Talk about not being able to do something not only legal -- but positive -- in your own country, because of a bunch of immigrants!


Could you please provide me with a link to these gangs? I have been unable to locate one.


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## Guitarist (Jun 25, 2016)

I don't know if the gangs have their own websites to link to.  I do know some Canadians who were discussing this just this past week.  Speaking of a really scary experience that thankfully they got safely away from.

Here are a few pertinent links. 

http://pamelageller.com/2016/05/mus...ng-extorting-and-attack-copenhagen-bars.html/

http://www.inquisitr.com/3093945/sh...ce-of-caliphate-across-europe-canada-and-u-s/

http://www.actforcanada.ca/father-b...trol-who-told-his-wife-daughter-how-to-dress/

If you want any more, you'll have to do your own research!  (It's not hard.  )


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## tnthomas (Jun 25, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Could you please provide me with a link to these gangs? I have been unable to locate one.



A partial result:  [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols
[/URL]


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## WhatInThe (Jun 25, 2016)

Here is an older link but it panned out in Europe with the infamous Sharia police.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/12/grooming_gangs_and_sharia.html

http://www.newsmax.com/World/Europe/EU-Germany-Islamic-Extremism/2016/05/03/id/726969/

Doesn't represent all of Islam but shows there are radical elements that have to be dealt with.


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

Hmm. It appears to me that this is hearsay, rather than substantiated fact. Sharia law is illegal in this country, our laws are secular. We do have ethnic gangs, ie, much of the drug trade is controlled by southeast Asians, but there is no record available as far as I am able to discern re the prevelence/existence of Sharia gangs patrolling Canadian neighborhoods.


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## Guitarist (Jun 25, 2016)

These substantial enough for you, Shalimar?

http://www.clarionproject.org/news/sharia-patrol-german-city-atttempts-enforce-islamic-law

















http://usherald.com/a-florida-colle...-five-muslims-on-patrol-enforcing-sharia-law/






Like I said, Shalimar, if you want any more research, do your own.  I'm quitting now because this is making me sick.


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

I am not denying that Sharia gangs exist, merely stating that there is no evidence presented here that they are found in Canada. One bigot spouting stuff at a college does not equal organised gangs imposing extreme Islamic law on Canadian neighborhoods. Where  are the facts?


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## Guitarist (Jun 25, 2016)

"Here are the facts" -- from your own country, Shalimar.  Believe it or not, as you choose. 

(BTW, the Canadians I know were describing a factual experience.  I believed them.  If you choose not to believe your own compatriots, well ... )

http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/sharia-set-off-alarms-in-canada-check-the-facts





http://christiansforcanada.ca/articles/sharia-law-what-is-it-is-it-good-for-canada

I'm not gonna waste any more time on this, Shalimar.  Like I said, do your own research.


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

Wow, graphic, and given that I have recently endured the recent suicidal death of my vets---which I posted, very traumatising. What is the problem? I haven't attempted to deny the existence of sharia gangs, only questioned their existence in Canada, 

and asked for proof. I read the links you supplied, which only offered supposition, not fact. Frankly, this comes across as a blatant example of Islamophobia. Sadly, it is also all too reminiscent of the pics of battered fetuses distributed by the shock 

troops of the fringe wing of the religious right of the pro life movement.  This type of gore doesn't belong on a mainstream forum.


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## Cookie (Jun 25, 2016)

When I google "sharia law in Canada" there is lots of reading material --- and it looks to me that is cause for concern.  Maybe things haven't escalated here like they have in Copenhagen and UK, but I get the impression that if government doesn't pay more attention to this problem, this can get certainly get out of hand.  In my city we have a large population of Muslims, and from what I understand the cultural diversity by law cannot dominate a neighborhood above 40%, whatever that means. This certainly does deserve more study.


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

Christians for Canada link takes an extremely narrow view of Muslims. Muslims are not obligated to give a tithe to support jihad, anymore than Christians are obligated to support refusing to allow women to have abortions. All Muslims are not the 

same, the majority are moderates, just as the majority of Christians and Jews do not believe in stoning people who commit adultery. One shoe doesn't fit all. Extremists are the exception, not the rule here.


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## Cookie (Jun 25, 2016)

Agree, Shalimar, most people of every religion are law abiding citizens busy working and making a life here.  However, it comes to mind there was an 'average' Muslim family here in Ontario a few years ago, a mother and father and maybe an aunt who murdered their two daughters for being too 'assimilated' in our society and breaking some of their laws. The parents were caught and convicted and are now in prison, although they denied they had done anything wrong. This is neither here nor there regarding immigration policies, but these things do happen more than one often hears about, unless it makes big headlines like this case did.


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## Shalimar (Jun 25, 2016)

Cookie, I remember the case well. Beyond sick.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Jun 25, 2016)

I read a lot of books.  One of the series I have enjoyed is the "Private" series by James Patterson.  I've read most of this series including... Private, Private Games, Private London, Private Berlin, Private L.A., Private Down Under, Private Vegas, and just this past couple of days Private Paris.  "Private" is a global private detective firm that seems to get itself involved in dangerous crisis around the globe.  As we have seen Brexit and all the media concern about immigration of those of the Muslim religion into Europe, Private Paris was a very timely read.  I would recommend anyone who likes lots of action, mystery, and clandestine operations that deal with issues of today to pick up a copy from your local library.


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## senile1 (Jun 25, 2016)

The danger and destabilizing effects of organized religion. Science and human history tell us we are a single people, separated by ideology. Until we come of age, as a species, to accept and appreciate each other, along with our cultural , ethnic, racial and/ or our philosophical/ religious differences, the species may not have a chance for long term survival. The species has so much potential, yet so much ignorance.


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## Debby (Jun 26, 2016)

I looked at the links supplied by you Guitarist and none of them suggested that Canada is on the cusp of being taken over by Sharia law.  That one was written by xenophobic Canadian Christians (at least one link) doesn't mean it's here in the way that Copenhagen is experiencing.  I think one thing to keep in mind is that we are more fortunate than Europe in that there's an ocean between us and the flood of fleeing refugees so that to a much greater degree, it's possible to vet the people who are coming here.  

And bringing up the occasional case of a Muslim family's murder ignores the fact that there are probably as many (if not more) instances of family violence among the non-Muslim community in our country.  It seems to me that continual talk about violent, dangerous Muslims is only going to cause such a feeling of being disconnected and marginalized that we could actually bring about the kind of alienation and hostility that is a breeding ground for violence among young, inexperienced Muslim youth.  

I think being vigilant is a requirement in any society, but seeing things before they happen is asking for trouble.


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## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

Debby, thank you!


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## Cookie (Jun 26, 2016)

Debby and Shalimar, I wasn't in any way suggesting we ban Muslim immigrants from entering.  And yes I agree that vigilance is essential.  However, while working in the public service Women's Directorate years ago, the issue of Sharia law and family violence was very much on the table and preventative measures were being sought in the way of legislation, which to this day, I don't know where it went.  

I think we do need to foresee things before they happen, very much so, especially when it comes to the honor killings of young girls who decide not to follow the mandates of their religion and other forms of family violence right here in Canada.  One high profile case does not mean that there are not others which have not been caught or others that will not take place in the future. We must be aware how it is a misogynistic culture/religion and what that means to all of us.


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## Bevie (Jun 26, 2016)

Here's my opinion. Muslims shouldn't be allowed here at all. My neighbor, from another country, had his 3 young children burned to death in their Christian school by Muslims. His wife had her throat cut when she rushed to the school. He said never ever trust a Muslim. You can live by them 30 years, even consider them a friend but it their Imam tells them to kill you , they will. Islam is like belonging to the Mafia. You don't DARE go against orders because they will kill you or your family. Also my stepfather was from Lebanon. The atrocities that Hezbollah (It doesn't matter what name they use) committed were unspeakable. They don't just shoot you. They find awful ways to torture, rape and kill you. Two good books to read if you want to know the truth "Because They Hate" by Brigette Gabriel and " Slavery, Terrorism and Islam" by Dr. Peter Hammond. When Muslims become about 10% of the population they start to demand their rights as a "minority" but once they are the majority, minorities ARE NOT ALLOWED.


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## Bevie (Jun 26, 2016)

There is no way to tell if they strictly adhere to Sharia Law or not so I don't approve of Muslims coming here at all.


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## Bevie (Jun 26, 2016)

I wrote a very  long reply that apparently they want to read first about my limited experience with the Islamic religion. I hope they put it on here,


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## Bevie (Jun 26, 2016)

I'll try this again. My neighbor had his 3 young children burned to death in their Christian school by Muslims. He said never, ever trust them. You can live by them 30 years, consider them a friend but if their Imam tells them to kill you , they will. Even if they are not strict Sharia, they don't dare go against an order. It's like belonging to the Mafia. My stepfather was from Lebanon. The atrocities that Hezbollah committed there were unspeakable. Read "Because They Hate" by Brigette Gabriel and "Slavery, Terrorism and Islam" by Dr. Peter Hammond. When they become 10% of the population they will start to demand their rights as a minority but once they become the majority, minorities are NOT allowed.


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## Debby (Jun 26, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Debby and Shalimar, I wasn't in any way suggesting we ban Muslim immigrants from entering.  And yes I agree that vigilance is essential.  However, while working in the public service Women's Directorate years ago, the issue of Sharia law and family violence was very much on the table and preventative measures were being sought in the way of legislation, which to this day, I don't know where it went.
> 
> I think we do need to foresee things before they happen, very much so, especially when it comes to the honor killings of young girls who decide not to follow the mandates of their religion and other forms of family violence right here in Canada.  One high profile case does not mean that there are not others which have not been caught or others that will not take place in the future. We must be aware how it is a misogynistic culture/religion and what that means to all of us.




I agree that being prepared for any eventuality is paramount in all things, wherever there is a possibility of any kind of crime, but at the same time looking at every Muslim with suspicion as though that person or family has the potential to be a criminal.....that's equally wrong don't you think?  

Remember that BC Indian woman, Jaswinder Sidhu, who was killed by her family for marrying someone of a different position, when she went to  the Punjab?  Her family is Sikh.  And apparently the notion of honour killings in the Punjab is not uncommon.  Murder is murder with a variety of victims and perpetrators and we have laws against it which would apply to any and all regardless of their religious beliefs.  But don't you think that if we start setting apart this group or that group we run the risk of inflaming people against those groups generally and making them feel so marginalized that more of their young people begin to harbour deep resentments at their bad treatment?  And we know what can happen when young people who are headstrong and idealistic and inexperienced in life, feel that way.

My feeling is, hold fast to our principals, apply our existing laws equally regardless of who the victim/perp is, and assume that folks are great until they do something that warrants activating those laws.


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## Cookie (Jun 26, 2016)

Debbie, no one is even remotely suggesting setting people apart because they are Muslims, how are you getting this from my posts.  But let's not be naive, and lets try to remember what are the characteristics of differing religions, how they differ from our social customs and how they might impact us. The kids who join the extremist fundamentalist groups aren't in them because they feel excluded from our society, they have been seriously brainwashed and indoctrinated.  Its a pretty powerful force. We didn't do it to them and we are not to blame for whatever dissatisfaction they may have. Other diverse cultural groups have immigrated to Canada, assimilated and participated in our society and there hasn't been any concern that they might turn into terrorists.


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## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

With respect, racism still exists in Canada, and young people can become disaffected easily enough. Some of  of them have sat in my office. Such disaffection can leave one vulnerable to mind control. As for fear of terrorism, I recall the  capture of a Sikh from my neck of the woods--he was heavily involved in the Air India bombing.


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## Cookie (Jun 26, 2016)

No one can disagree with you, Shalimar, of course racism exists here in Canada as well as all over the rest of the world.  Fear of terrorism is very real, as evidenced by strict air travel regulations and border patrols.  It affects us all. That's the world we live in.  But there is definitely no need to be full fear and hatred for our neighbors who may be different from us. Just go about with eyes and ears open and keep smiling.


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## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

Cookie, you are right.


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## Debby (Jun 26, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Debbie, no one is even remotely suggesting setting people apart because they are Muslims, how are you getting this from my posts.  But let's not be naive, and lets try to remember what are the characteristics of differing religions, how they differ from our social customs and how they might impact us. The kids who join the extremist fundamentalist groups aren't in them because they feel excluded from our society, they have been seriously brainwashed and indoctrinated.  Its a pretty powerful force. We didn't do it to them and we are not to blame for whatever dissatisfaction they may have. Other diverse cultural groups have immigrated to Canada, assimilated and participated in our society and there hasn't been any concern that they might turn into terrorists.




The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough, is that in our minds we start setting people apart or being wary of them always.  Not that I was suggesting that you want to put them in concentration camps or anything.  

And how do you know that Muslim kids don't feel excluded and particularly as this whole ME fiasco has overheated since 1991 and then 2001?  They aren't stupid nor are they deaf and blind.  They hear what's going on, Trumps bombastic statements about banning them, excluding them, the support that is loud and continuous for guarding against 'them', the labelling that is going on.  Maybe if 'we' weren't so virulently opposed to their presence, when they hear the violence that the clerics are preaching, just maybe they would recognize the flaw in that thinking because that imam would be asking them to target friends and family of friends.  

And just like someone mentioned here about extremist Christians, the Christian church came out of a belief that God commanded the genocide and annihilation of other nations, including the women and all the children.  And yet today, despite a love for the same book that advocated that kind of violence, for the most part, Christians wouldn't think of doing those things.  Why is it so hard then to accept that not all Muslims are ISIS followers or at least 'closet supporters'?  Ask Mayor Nenshi how his family feels about the violence that is being perpetrated in the name of his faith?  Ask other upstanding members of our society who happen to be Muslim how their teens feel when they hear the kinds of sentiments that ostracize them, if they don't sometimes feel afraid and frustrated by what they hear in society.  Ask that Muslim woman in Toronto who was attacked by the nut-case in the red Canada shirt, how she felt when she heard her little baby crying in fear as the woman pulled at her and screamed at her.  Are we setting that child up to hate us when he becomes a teenager?

I understand the fear that would try to take us over, but we have to find a bravery in ourselves so that we don't give in to it and give rise to violence.  If we only look out for the 'bad', we will find it as it finds us.


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## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

I welcome the privilege of working with Muslim refugees. Our commonality as human beings vastly outweighs any cultural differences we may have. Frankly, they give me far more than I can ever give them.  Their courage astounds me, their 

willingness to start again, work hard, and give back to the country that shelters them, is a testament to the beauty and resilience of the human spirit. Salaam. At some point, I will post recipes.


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## Cookie (Jun 26, 2016)

Debbie, I think you are preaching to the choir.  Let it go.  No one is assuming that all Muslims are Isis followers.  Have a nice day and stay cool!


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## senile1 (Jun 26, 2016)

Debby said:


> The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough, is that in our minds we start setting people apart or being wary of them always.  Not that I was suggesting that you want to put them in concentration camps or anything.
> 
> And how do you know that Muslim kids don't feel excluded and particularly as this whole ME fiasco has overheated since 1991 and then 2001?  They aren't stupid nor are they deaf and blind.  They hear what's going on, Trumps bombastic statements about banning them, excluding them, the support that is loud and continuous for guarding against 'them', the labelling that is going on.  Maybe if 'we' weren't so virulently opposed to their presence, when they hear the violence that the clerics are preaching, just maybe they would recognize the flaw in that thinking because that imam would be asking them to target friends and family of friends.
> 
> ...




"In 1967, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., isolated himself from the demands of the civil rights movement, rented a house in Jamaica with no telephone, and labored over his final manuscript. In this prophetic work, which has been unavailable for more than ten years, he lays out his thoughts, plans, and dreams for America's future, including the need for better jobs, higher wages, decent housing, and quality education. With a universal message of hope that continues to resonate, King demanded an end to global suffering, asserting that humankind-for the first time-has the resources and technology to eradicate poverty."

This is an excerpt from "Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community? (King Legacy)"

Dr King knew protesting and demanding one's right was only part of the equation, where are we going to go with the rights and freedoms once they have been won, not only as a people; but as a nation. You defeat racism, ,poverty, inequality, and segregation  as a people, not / blacks/ whites/Asian and/or Latin, not Muslim, Christian, and/ or Jewish;but one nation.  Until we can ban together to battle these injustices, until we start seeing ourselves as "a" people; the slaughter will never cease.


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## Debby (Jun 27, 2016)

Reading your comment senile1, I was reminded of the Brexit situation and the demands for change.......every time there is a demand for change, there's also a need for a recalibration of the status quo.   And in every one of those instances, a requirement that we begin to quit separating from one another.  Do you think humanity will ever manage that?  Sometimes I feel a glimmer of hope and then I turn on the news........and well, you know hope is dashed once again.

Seems like there's such an effort, with phrases like 'lest we forget' and 'learn from our mistakes' and 'history has many lessons for us' and we never really learn.  I guess we take comfort from offering 'lip service' to kindnesses and compassion but fail to put our own lives on that line by making new choices that will pull society in the right direction.  While Gandhi may have had his own problems with being a racist, that famous quote of his, 'Be the change that you would see in the world' still stands.  The question is, who is listening.*Save**Save*​


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## Debby (Jun 27, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Debbie, I think you are preaching to the choir.  Let it go.  No one is assuming that all Muslims are Isis followers.  Have a nice day and stay cool!




I think there are lots of people who assume that all Muslims are ISIS followers or at least give a certain mental assent to their philosophies.  Why else do Donald Trumps cries for banning all Muslims get support from enough people to put him in the position of a Presidential hopeful?  Right here on our forum, the words of Bevie lend support to that notion.  He/she said, '...Here's my opinion. *Muslims shouldn't be allowed here at all.* My neighbor, from another country, had his 3 young children burned to death in their Christian school by Muslims. His wife had her throat cut when she rushed to the school. He said *never ever trust a Muslim*. You can live by them 30 years, even consider them a friend but *it their Imam tells them to kill you , they will.* Islam is like belonging to the Mafia. You don't DARE go against orders because* they will kill you *or your family. Also my stepfather was from Lebanon. The atrocities that Hezbollah (It doesn't matter what name they use) committed were unspeakable. *They* don't just shoot you. *They* find awful ways to torture, rape and kill you.   

No indication in Bevie's comments that there is a differentiation between ISIS supporters and moderate Muslims.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 27, 2016)

Guess my husband should stop going to his Muslim barber... he gets really close to his throat with a straight razor..  Never know when he may decide to shave him a little too close.. like into his jugular..  [/sarcasm]


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## Ameriscot (Jun 27, 2016)

Debby said:


> I think there are lots of people who assume that all Muslims are ISIS followers or at least give a certain mental assent to their philosophies.  Why else do Donald Trumps cries for banning all Muslims get support from enough people to put him in the position of a Presidential hopeful?  Right here on our forum, the words of Bevie lend support to that notion.  He/she said, '...Here's my opinion. *Muslims shouldn't be allowed here at all.* My neighbor, from another country, had his 3 young children burned to death in their Christian school by Muslims. His wife had her throat cut when she rushed to the school. He said *never ever trust a Muslim*. You can live by them 30 years, even consider them a friend but *it their Imam tells them to kill you , they will.* Islam is like belonging to the Mafia. You don't DARE go against orders because* they will kill you *or your family. Also my stepfather was from Lebanon. The atrocities that Hezbollah (It doesn't matter what name they use) committed were unspeakable. *They* don't just shoot you. *They* find awful ways to torture, rape and kill you.
> 
> No indication in Bevie's comments that there is a differentiation between ISIS supporters and moderate Muslims.



I just bit my tongue (typing fingers) after reading her post.  I've given up on even trying to argue with Islamaphobes.


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## GeorgiaXplant (Jun 27, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Either all of us matter, or none of us do.



This! Thank you, Shali.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

Georgia, you are most welcome.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

I belong to another forum. It has a rant section. Oooh, the comments regarding Muslims/Syrian refugees, not just from extreme Libertarians, but my own Canucks gave me the shivers. One American lady, former teacher, avowed Christian, stated 

that when a portion of a society are murderous, the peaceful people are irrelevant. Eeek, what can you do with that? Under that philosophy, all of us are doomed. I exited that group before I lost it. The comments were so hateful. These are 

racist/Islamophobes, full of a thinly disguised hatred. I want to dip my mind in bleach. This forum would never permit such blatant hatred.


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## senile1 (Jun 27, 2016)

Debby said:


> Reading your comment senile1, I was reminded of the Brexit situation and the demands for change.......every time there is a demand for change, there's also a need for a recalibration of the status quo.   And in every one of those instances, a requirement that we begin to quit separating from one another.  Do you think humanity will ever manage that?  Sometimes I feel a glimmer of hope and then I turn on the news........and well, you know hope is dashed once again.
> 
> Seems like there's such an effort, with phrases like 'lest we forget' and 'learn from our mistakes' and 'history has many lessons for us' and we never really learn.  I guess we take comfort from offering 'lip service' to kindnesses and compassion but fail to put our own lives on that line by making new choices that will pull society in the right direction.  While Gandhi may have had his own problems with being a racist, that famous quote of his, 'Be the change that you would see in the world' still stands.  The question is, who is listening.*Save**Save*​





Exactly the point Ms. Debby, "everyone is talking, nobody is walking."  We can preach till we turn blue, the need for change and the means of going about it, but till we start practicing what we preach, tis all hot air. One  has to "live" it, it has to become part of one's lifestyle, or else you have just put another bandage on the woes of mankind. The main driving force, which is detrimental to man's growth is "greed." When we start to put what is best for the masses over what's best for the few, or the one , then there will be no need for nations and / or national alliances; war and  starvation will become a thing of the past.  Throughout Man's history, man's biggest hurdle, has always been man.


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## Cookie (Jun 27, 2016)

Whether some people don't want Muslims immigrating here is one thing, but seriously, that these same people think ALL Muslims are the followers of ISIS is another. People are now scared, maybe more in the US and the media and Trump are capitalizing on it.  Although it is not the same kind of fear that led to interment of Japanese in US and Canada during WWII, it is beginning to give off a similar type of odour. 

Most average people know jack squat about Muslims other than what they see on the news, or about religions other than their own (if they have one).  Some people have studied the sociological impact of religious radicals on a religious group and might be more qualified to understand what is going on, and lots of what they say, Shalimar, might sound horrible to us, but is it completely inaccurate? I'd rather let the scholars decide.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

Frankly, at this point, I am far more worried about the social impact of extreme Israeli Zionism which is being played out on the Palestinians etc, than the supposed threat from Syrian refugees. Funny, how nothing is done about that. I guess thinly disguised genocide is ok if it is Arabs? Yes, I know what I am talking about, my nephew was there, saw it with his own eyes.....


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## Sunny (Jun 27, 2016)

"Extreme Israeli Zionism," eh, Shalimar? As in, when people are simply trying to live their lives in peace in their own homeland, and are surrounded and continually infiltrated by terrorists who want nothing more
than to murder them all and (in their own words) drive them into the sea?  So, I guess the Holocaust was not enough; there are still a few peaceful Jews left in the world.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

Excuse me? I have Jewish relatives with  numbers tattooed on their arms. I am all too aware of the Holocaust. One of my great aunts, a concentration camp survivor, and very old, recently spoke at a Jewish rally in New York City, put on by a Not In My 

Name contingent of American Jews. Not all Jews embrace Zionism, particularly the extreme form as practiced by the right wing gov't of that bully Netanyahu.


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## Cookie (Jun 27, 2016)

Agree Shalimar, Zionism is different from Judaism.  They are a very hard-nosed and violent bunch dedicated to Israel as a physical country. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flat_(2011_film)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2071620/

I watched the documentary 'The Flat' on Netflix a while back re a grandson emptying the apartment in Israel of his deceased grandparents, immigrants of Nazi Germany, where he found some shocking information.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

Thank you Cookie. I have seen the documentary, my aunt told me of it.  She was very distraught, but believed in it's authenticity. Many of the ever dwindling "club" of holocaust survivors are horrified by the current Zionist vision/policies, and speak out harshly, so far to no avail. As one gentleman put it, "it's as if Goebels  were  reincarnated as propoganda minister in Israel."


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## Debby (Jun 27, 2016)

Sunny said:


> "Extreme Israeli Zionism," eh, Shalimar? As in, when people are simply trying to live their lives in peace in their own homeland, and are surrounded and continually infiltrated by terrorists who want nothing more
> than to murder them all and (in their own words) drive them into the sea?  So, I guess the Holocaust was not enough; there are still a few peaceful Jews left in the world.




After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites  talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks.  What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians.  They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die.  They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.

If someone invaded and took over your state of Maryland, what do you think your feelings might be if they deprived you of everything that is dear to you and made your life hell?


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## Ruthanne (Jun 27, 2016)

Sorry for this post.  I am going to sleep now.


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## Shalimar (Jun 27, 2016)

Ruthanne, pm please, I am scared for you.:love_heart:


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 27, 2016)

Debby said:


> After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites  talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks.  What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians.  They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die.  They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.



I agree Debby.  Viewer discretion advised for the following video for those interested.


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## Guitarist (Jun 27, 2016)

> Whether some people don't want Muslims immigrating here is one thing, but seriously, that these same people think ALL Muslims are the followers of ISIS is another. People are now scared, maybe more in the US and the media and Trump are capitalizing on it. Although it is not the same kind of fear that led to interment of Japanese in US and Canada during WWII, it is beginning to give off a similar type of odour.



The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.  

You can look at a white person and tell he's white.  You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).  

There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?


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## Shalimar (Jun 28, 2016)

Charleston church massacre. When will whites stand up and do something about  rightwing domestic terrorism? This was a terrible crime against black Christians. What is producing such radicalised whites? What are the signs?


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## mitchezz (Jun 28, 2016)

Guitarist said:


> The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.
> 
> You can look at a white person and tell he's white.  You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).
> 
> There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?



Gee, I don't know. For a start maybe we should ask some of the white women of Westboro Church, or white women who are members of the KKK or maybe those white women who protest outside Abortion Clinics....you know those places where staff are sometimes killed?


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## mitchezz (Jun 28, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Charleston church massacre. When will whites stand up and do something about  rightwing domestic terrorism? This was a terrible crime against black Christians. What is producing such radicalised whites? What are the signs?



The first sign is stupidity. Add anger, bitterness, bigotry, paranoia, persecution complex, misplaced superiority......the list is endless.


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## Debby (Jun 28, 2016)

I think what we need to do is identify the moderate Muslims in our communities and give them support as they face the challenges of faith (in a religion that has been hijacked by monsters and the ignorant masses).  When we hear of them, we must take note of who they are, who their groups are and use our energy to (cheer) them on as they bravely work to move their faith forward into this century.  I also think that our media is doing a terrible job of identifying those people and groups and I suppose it's because 'atrocities sell' as opposed to good news stories.  And shame on them and us for that.



Raheel Raza is a Canadian Muslim woman and is the President of The Council For Muslims Facing Tomorrow.  She speaks all over the world at conferences designed to hi-lite others who stepped away from ancient attitudes and in some cases paid with their lives, and to hold up a new and better vision for their faith.  Her blog is here:  https://raheelraza.wordpress.com

The Council For Muslims Facing Tomorrow - The Preamble to their Mission Statement:

We are Muslims who live in the 21st century. We stand for a respectful, merciful and inclusive interpretation of Islam. We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate.

We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.

We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us.  (it goes on to discuss human rights, women's rights, secular governance, freedom of speech and religion,  etc.) and can be found here:  http://muslimsfacingtomorrow.com/press-releases/


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## Debby (Jun 28, 2016)

Just started viewing your video link SeaBreeze. 7 minutes in and I'm appalled.  Even though I've read about lots of dreadful things that go on there, I'm still appalled.  The image of the IDF soldier grabbing a rock and using it to beat that Palestinian man who is cowering on the ground in the middle of the group, the woman who is told to 'work so that she can afford to go home', that Amnesty International has documented Palestinian homes being bulldozed while the families are still inside, the talk of women being forced to give birth at checkpoints and their babies dying......shocking.

I think the lack of news coverage is part of our governments efforts to paint all Muslims with the same brush of 'violence' because what does come across on CNN and Fox and CBC, is suicide bombers, Palestinian random attacks, Hamas........and that feeds into the narrative about ISIS and caliphates and dangerous Muslims.  

Another reason too might be NATO's ongoing efforts to push Russia into a corner and achieved in part by not discussing the monster in Turkey, President Erdogan.  Should we not be hearing about his (rumoured) desire to renew an Islamic caliphate, the Ottoman empire, with Turkey as its head?  Shouldn't we hear about the stolen oil coming from ISIS and going through Turkey, the NATO member?  Shouldn't we be condemning the murder of a parachuting Russian pilot and the subsequent murder of a Russian rescuer who was coming to the pilots aid?   Collusion and conspiracy and agenda's and because of all of this, all Muslims are painted with a broad brush that is steeped in beheadings and violence.


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## Ameriscot (Jun 28, 2016)

Guitarist said:


> The thing is, no one can tell whether any given Muslim is potential ISIS material or not.
> 
> You can look at a white person and tell he's white.  You can look at a woman and tell she's female (unless she's identifying as male that day).
> 
> There is no way to look at a Muslim and tell whether he/she is a threat to you or not until he pulls out a hand grenade/gun/bomb ... and then it's too late. Every person has the potential for violence, and if a person's religious leaders tell him to be violent, will he resist?



And just how do you identify a Muslim?  They don't wear signs or labels. Do you think all brown people are Muslim?  All Middle Eastern looking people?  All Arabs are not Muslim.  All Muslim women do not wear scarves or hijabs. Are you simply going to ask them?  If they have bad intentions do you think they will say, 'yes I'm Muslim *and* a terrorist'.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 28, 2016)

I live in a community with a large Muslim.. or rather Middle Eastern population.  I shop in their stores.. I eat in their restaurants and Hubby's barber is Middle Eastern.  I have no idea about what religion they practice or IF they practice.  We  have never encountered a problem.  They are living their lives and earning a living.. oh.. AND paying taxes.


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## Ameriscot (Jun 28, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> I live in a community with a large Muslim.. or rather Middle Eastern population.  I shop in their stores.. I eat in their restaurants and Hubby's barber is Middle Eastern.  I have no idea about what religion they practice or IF they practice.  We  have never encountered a problem.  They are living their lives and earning a living.. oh.. AND paying taxes.



I hate that people make assumptions about someone's religion based on how they look.  And I detest when people say The Arabs which they think means all Muslims.  Preceding a word like Arab, Muslim, Hispanic, Mexican, Black....etc (like Trump does) shows one has an 'us and them' attitude which actually means bigotry.


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## Sunny (Jun 28, 2016)

Shalimar, re your note #80:

While I am largely in agreement with you on this, my objection is to your use of the expression "extreme Israeli Zionism" as an implied parallel with the terrorism of Isis.  Zionism simply means the love of Israel. It is
not a terrorist organization or a terrorist mentality, quite the opposite. Equating Zionism with terrorism is akin to equating Canadian or U.S. patriotism with terrorism. Ridiculous, right? But this is a typical example of
extreme Palestinian propaganda against the Israelis.

Having said that, I should add that I am no fan of Netanyahu, the Israeli right wing, or the settlements, which I think should be disbanded. There is undoubtedly a great deal of polarization and prejudice on both sides
in Israel; however, hurting someone's feelings or even violating their civil rights is NOT the same thing as terrorism!  I googled this subject and found the following on Wickipedia. While it does describe what it calls
"violence" by the extreme right wing against Palestinians, this violence is mainly against property. The Israelis are not terrorists, out to kill innocent people. There have been a few cases, but very few. And of course,
when it happens it is inexcusable, no matter which side is doing it.

And no, I don't think 99% of the Muslims are terrorists, either. But there clearly is a sickness that has taken over some branches of that religion, resulting in what is obviously most of the terrorism going on in the world
today. We cannot stop people from coming to this country, or from professing their allegiance to Sharia law. But let's not make false analogies either.

Here's the Wickipedia description of Israeli "terrorism:"

Human Rights Watch reports on physical violence against Palestinians by settlers, including, "frequent[ly] stoning and shooting at Palestinian cars. In many cases, settlers abuse Palestinians in front of Israeli soldiers or police with little interference from the authorities."[SUP][22][/SUP]
B'Tselem also says that settler actions include "blocking roadways, so as to impede Palestinian life and commerce. The settlers also shoot solar panels on roofs of buildings, torch automobiles, shatter windowpanes and windshields, destroy crops, uproot trees, abuse merchants and owners of stalls in the market. Some of these actions are intended to force Palestinians to leave their homes and farmland, and thereby enable the settlers to gain control of them."[SUP][23][/SUP]
[h=2][/h]


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

Sunny, if you look up the word terrorism, the following is the definition you will find:



'the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims'.


Given that definition and the actions for fifty years+, Israel is a terrorist government.  Their violence against the helpless Palestinian population is not occasional nor accidental.  It is deliberate and it is continual and it escalates.  And while they don’t behead people or burn them alive, they do rob them of life and liberty by every means possible.  

Their intention of course is to make life so miserable and difficult that they force anyone who is not an ‘acceptable’ citizen, to leave and has been referred to as a ‘soft genocide’ by some who are there and seeing their activities first hand.

When I looked up ‘genocide’ I discovered the following statement by Yehuda Bauer in 1984, who happens to be an Israeli historian and Holocaust survivor ironically.  


'[Genocide is] the planned destruction, since the mid-nineteenth century, of a racial, national, or ethnic group as such, by the following means: (a) selective mass murder of elites or parts of the population; (b) elimination of national (racial, ethnic) culture and religious life with the intent of "denationalization"; (c) enslavement, with the same intent; (d) destruction of national (racial, ethnic) economic life, with the same intent; (e) biological decimation through the kidnapping of children, or the prevention of normal family life, with the same intent…. 




It is obvious from a real study of the treatment that Israel metes out to the entire Palestinian population, that items  b, c, d and e are exactly the methods that are being employed.   And if you include the actual conflicts such as the world witnessed in 2014 plus many other instances, even item 'a' is an action that is taken periodically.  Yehuda Bauer is speaking from a place of experience during the Holocaust,  and  Ze'ev Jabotinsky, thought by many to be the founder of the Likud party, actually 'gave thanks to Hitler' when he said, 

"Hitler—as odious as he is to us—has given this idea [ethnic cleansing] a good name in the world."—Jabotinsky'  That is the political spirit that motivates the Israeli government today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions
http://www.thehypertexts.com/Zionist%20Quotes.htm


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

I came across an article, written by Jewish-American Stephen Lendman, a Research Associate for the Centre for Research on Globalization, who in commenting on Israel's 2015 appointment of Danny Danon as their UN Envoy, says the following:

Israel is run by a fanatical criminal gang of lunatics - genocidists wanting greater Israel for Jews alone, Arabs entirely eliminated from areas they want ethnically pure.

It’s permanently at war with Palestine, terrorizing defenseless civilians, mass slaughtering them at its discretion, brutalizing children like adults, attacking Palestinian fishermen a reported 1312 times since Operation Protective Edge ended last August.

Likudnik Danny Danon is a notorious racist - an outspoken opponent of Palestinian self-determination. Netanyahu sacked him last summer as deputy defense minister for calling Operation Protective Edge too soft on Gaza.

He urged greater genocide than than already inflicted. “We should have given the order to the army to clean up Gaza,” he said. Form your own judgment on what he meant.

He issued a statement rejecting ceasefire, claiming “Hamas is once again setting conditions for us. We must not be humiliated.”
“We must correct the mistake of the cabinet decision (for ceasefire) and allow the army to do what it must” - *urging full-scale ground invasion, increased terror bombing, inflicting far greater mass casualties, mainly affecting noncombatant men, women and children.
*I think Mr. Danon's words are pretty clear and don't need further explanation as to Israel's philosophy and intentions.

You mentioned a few 'issues' and in a sense I think minimized them, but to be honest Sunny, I think that you are hearing only what AIPAC wants you to hear instead of what actually happens to anyone who is not a Jew in Israel.  

When I began researching the Israel/Palestinian situation a few years ago, I knew about as much as you.  I'd heard about the rockets, suicide bombers, etc., and my sympathies were more aligned with the Jewish Israeli's.  However, after spending the time looking at what human rights groups (there) had to say, as well as reading several UN reports and the writings of academics (who were both Jew and non-Jews) and regional newspapers plus a history book about the region and President Carter's book, I began to realize the horror that Israel inflicts on that Arab population continuously.  Israel's intentions are very clear and it does not include a two state solution or even the inclusion of Arabs citizens in Israel's desired 'one state'.  

I want to also make the point that when I was doing the research, I made a point of NOT reading anything coming out of Arab or Palestinian websites.  I felt that their bias was too strong for obvious reasons, and that I was more likely to get a balanced assessment from the sources mentioned above.

http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/53558-israel-un-envoy.html


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## Sunny (Jun 29, 2016)

Debby, this stuff has been spewed by the Palestinian extremists since day one of the state of Israel, back in 1948. Read the history of the country, see who is committing an endless pattern of murder against whom, and
then decide who the terrorists are. (By "read," I mean an objective description of the country, not Palestinian propaganda.)



> , terrorizing defenseless civilians, mass slaughtering them at its discretion, brutalizing children like adults



So, the Israelis are doing that to the Palestinians?  How would you describe the many bombings and shootings at bus stops, pizza shops, shops, etc., in which defenseless civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, have been killed?


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 29, 2016)

Debby said:


> After doing months of reading about the situation in Israel, I quickly realized that most people have never looked beyond the Western soundbites that are served up to us every night on the evening news. And those soundbites  talk about rockets being launched, smuggling tunnels and suicide attacks.  What they don't tell you about is the food and water deprivation, the thousands of Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed over the years, or the children that are imprisoned indefinitely in Israeli prisons, or the raids and reprisals that come in the dark of night, or the ex-IDF soldiers who are so ashamed of what they were required to do that they have formed a group called 'Breaking the Silence' in order to expose the continual abuses of the Israeli military against helpless civilians.  They also fail to mention that for every one Jewish person who is killed by a frustrated Palestinian, nine Palestinians (of all ages, including children) die.  They don't talk about the settler attacks on Palestinian homes, farms, children walking to school or the fact that in any altercation started by a violent settler, the Palestinian invariably gets arrested, held indefinitely while the Jewish settler goes home.
> 
> If someone invaded and took over your state of Maryland, what do you think your feelings might be if they deprived you of everything that is dear to you and made your life hell?



There is much censorship in the main stream media about the Israeli occupation of this land which is the cause of so much bloodshed.  I am still learning about it, as years ago I didn't pay much attention.  I remember a good radio show host, Reggie Rivers who was also a sports celebrity was fired from his job just for discussing the Palestinian/Israeli situation, too many political money influences behind the scenes of that radio station objected to any discussion which may uncover what was really going on there.

  People seem to deny anything that tells the Palestinian side of the story, dismissing it as propaganda.  The only reason I'm interested now, is because I see the powerful Israeli influence on our politics in America and don't like everything I see.  Bibi Netanyahu's antics is a prime example.  Some basic information here about GAZA.


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2016)

SB, one of the things that haunted my nephew when he returned home from Doctors Without Borders, was the refusal of otherwise intelligent informed people to believe anything he had to say in support of Amnesty International's claim of genocide 

re Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Of course there are Palestinian terrorists, but their actions pale in comparison to the systematic torture and murder of innocent civilians by the Israelis. He was there, he saw it. But people just smile condescendingly...


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2016)

Sunny, I intended no comparison between Netanyahu's policies and ISIL. He does not intend to conquer the world, behead innocents etc. However, he jails twelve year old children without charge, people are regularly tortured in prison, killed by soldiers with impunity. My nephew was there, one of my relatives left Israel because of what he called, "the new Nazis," he is a Jew. It broke his heart. He fought in the Yom Kippur war.


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## Sunny (Jun 29, 2016)

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=AP

This was in today's paper. For a bunch of "terrorists," the Israelis seem to be trying awfully hard to prevent violence. 

I was particularly interested in the last part of the article, which describes the proposals of retired Israeli security chiefs to make some pretty big concessions to the Palestinians in the interest of peace.


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

Sunny said:


> Debby, this stuff has been spewed by the Palestinian extremists since day one of the state of Israel, back in 1948. Read the history of the country, see who is committing an endless pattern of murder against whom, and
> then decide who the terrorists are. (By "read," I mean an objective description of the country, not Palestinian propaganda.)
> 
> 
> ...




Sunny, 'this stuff' is not what has been spewed by Palestinian extremists. You caution me to read an objective description....well I remind you that I've already said that I have made a point of NOT reading anything coming from Palestinians but have focused on writings from every other camp, including UN documents, history books, President Carters book, regional Jewish newspapers, and human rights groups like Red Cross and B'Tselem and Oxfam, etc.   So I've done already, what you suggest, and the things I've said are what the experts on the ground there have found.  The facts are there for all to see if they but look.

You talk of an endless pattern of murder....since 2000, there have been 9200 Palestinian murders compared to 1200 Jewish murders.  Indeed, there is most definitely a pattern and it is obvious to see who is terrorizing whom and particularly if one were to include in that consideration, who is destroying homes and families, who is preventing food and water access, who is limiting in the extreme all travel and gathering, who is locking up who, which schools and hospitals are being destroyed, etc.

The attacks by Palestinians are a tragic fact.  It is a terrible aspect of the ongoing struggle of an 'occupied' group against the occupier.  It should not happen because innocent civilians should not pay the price of government agenda's but unfortunately, that is exactly what happens all too often.  Ask yourself this, if instead of being taken away to die, if the Jewish people had been walled into the Warsaw ghetto for fifty years and deprived of food and water, homes and clothing, life and hope, what would the Jewish people have done?  Would they have fought back and struggled for their freedom?

In fact, that is what they tried to do in the last days of its existence:  'At 3am on the morning of April 19, the Nazis surrounded the ghetto and the battle began. Between 2000 Germans armed with a tank, two armored cars, three light-anti-aircraft guns, one medium howitzer, heavy and light machine guns, flame throwers, rifles, pistols and grenades faced off against 700-750 Jewish resistance fighters. The Jews had managed to stockpile a few thousand grenades, as well as a few hundred rifles, revolvers and pistols. But they possessed only two or three light machine guns. The Germans planned to clear the ghetto of 60,000 Jews in three days. The Jews hoped to hold out as long as possible. '  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX103.html

I have often wondered how it is that a people that has been so badly treated could in turn, do the same kinds of things to another group of people.  And what kind of mental gymnastics are necessary in order to ignore the obvious which is that Israel has become the oppressor and the Palestinian people are emulating exactly the last ditch efforts of the prisoners in the Warsaw ghetto.

I understand how you are probably feeling when I say these things and I'm sorry if it's 'harshing your buzz', but facts are facts.  And Sunny, in case you're wanting to accuse me of being an anti-semite, two things:  If it was Jewish people who were being abused and marginalized, I'd be here, speaking out on their behalf and secondly, the Arab people are also a Semitic people and if B'Tselem and Jewish Voices for Peace can speak out on behalf of the Palestinians and I'm reading and accepting their observations on what's going on there, how on earth can I be an 'anti-Semite'?


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> There is much censorship in the main stream media about the Israeli occupation of this land which is the cause of so much bloodshed.  I am still learning about it, as years ago I didn't pay much attention.  I remember a good radio show host, Reggie Rivers who was also a sports celebrity was fired from his job just for discussing the Palestinian/Israeli situation, too many political money influences behind the scenes of that radio station objected to any discussion which may uncover what was really going on there.
> 
> *People seem to deny anything that tells the Palestinian side of the story, dismissing it as propaganda. * The only reason I'm interested now, is because I see the powerful Israeli influence on our politics in America and don't like everything I see.  Bibi Netanyahu's antics is a prime example.  Some basic information here about GAZA.




I saw a little news blurb on the 'ticker' under the new program and it said that a Canadian library (must have been the main library in Ottawa for them to bother mentioning it) said that among other complaints that it has seen in the last year was a request to remove some 'popular' book (and I can't remember the name) because it was too graphic and another request to remove a documentary video about a Palestinian woman's life.  So even in Canada, there is a move to silence a story because it probably runs contrary to the narrative that's being promoted everywhere in the mainstream media.

I started getting interested in all of this because I heard how a Palestinian MP in the Knesset walked out on my Prime Ministers speech when he was there in Israel and speaking before their government.  I was so surprised and decided to find out why he would do that.  Now I understand.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 29, 2016)

Debby said:


> ...and another request to remove a documentary video about a Palestinian woman's life.  So even in Canada, there is a move to silence a story because it probably runs contrary to the narrative that's being promoted everywhere in the mainstream media.



Looks like this is it Debby, long with sub-titles, haven't watched it yet.  https://www.nfb.ca/film/soraida_a_woman_of_palestine/


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

I did some research on the wall that the Israeli's are in the process of completing and to be very honest, the offer at the end of the article sounds like it is more of the same philosophy of containment and segregation and entirely to the benefit of the Israeli's.  While it's 'decent' of Israel to allow access to their mosque to the Palastinians for the duration of Ramadan, the wall that's being discussed at the end, almost encircle's some P. villages, cuts others in half, blocks access to P. farms, veers off the 1948 borders into 'P. land' and has been found by the UN Security Council plus other agencies, to be in contravention of International Law and the Fourth Geneva Convention.  

There are lots of details to the issue of that wall and rather than make mistakes in relaying the information that is pertinent, I'm just going to place the link here for any who want to take a look at it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier 

Those 'pretty big concessions' aren't actually that wonderful when you start looking at the details.  To his credit, even George W. Bush had a few things to say to Netanyahu that were not supportive at all of the Israeli decision to build that barrier wherever it trespasses onto Palestinian land and stated that it should be only a temporary construction even as a more equitable road to peace is worked out.  And of course one of the major issues to be dealt with will be the ongoing construction of settlements in land that had been set apart for the Palestinian people in 1948.  The construction of those settlements contravenes the Geneva Convention as when an occupying force invades a land, the Geneva convention states that the occupier (Israel) is not allowed to transfer their own people into that land to take it over.

I don't think anyone would suggest that Israeli's shouldn't be safe in their homes.  But I also think that the troubles with the Palestinian's who are attacking and fighting back against the occupation are troubles that Israel has brought on itself.  For years now, there have been peace rallies in towns and villages throughout Israel.  But instead of 'rewarding' those people with a reduction in IDF raids and settler assaults and improvement of access to food, water, medical and educational services, Israel meets them with rubber bullets and water cannons.  It is hard to see those actions as conducive to peace.


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## Debby (Jun 29, 2016)

Thanks SeaBreeze.  I just started watching it and it's interesting.  Gives you an inside look at life in Ramallah.  But it's late here (11:30PM) so I'm going to finish watching it tomorrow.

*******

Well half way through and I can see why some would want to make the video disappear.  Not because it's got graphic violence but because it moves the narrative away from 'Palestinians are all terrorists' to 'Palestinians are moms and dads and little kids and people just like us'.  Its harder to oppress and blow to smithereens, 'people just like us' and have the world look kindly and with support, on Israel's efforts.


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## Redd (Jul 1, 2016)

When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.

I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.

Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 1, 2016)

Redd said:


> When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.
> 
> I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.
> 
> Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.



I live in a community with a HUGE Muslim population..  I shop in a grocery store selling Halal food..  Would you even KNOW what Halal food is?   Would it taste different?  The meat tastes the same to me... IT's BEEF and CHICKEN..  eating it has not made me "pray with my butt in the air".    I am in contact with Middle Eastern people every day..  No one is rude or cutting in front of me..   I have Middle Eastern neighbors.  They live like everyone else.. maintain their property and don't affect me in the least.   I also have Hindu neighbors..  Stop the fear mongering.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 1, 2016)

Redd said:


> When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.
> 
> I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like *Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.*
> 
> Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.



Not true.  Dearborn schools offer Halal alternatives.  None of the schools offer only Halal.  And the only website I found that said so had a photo of Cruz and Palin on the header, so you know that's lies.


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## Debby (Jul 1, 2016)

Redd said:


> When we are all praying with our butts in the air then maybe we might consider that closing the doors on immigration might not have been such a bad idea.
> 
> I live in a community slowly being taken over and I am in Canada. The Muslims who work in the food industry refuse to use hand sanitizer as it contains alcohol. And those who drive cab will not take a customer to a hotel. This community is changing much like Dearborn, Michigan where even the schools now serve Halal food, and only Halal food.
> 
> Those who welcome them have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.




I went to a mall in Calgary with my daughter last year and it was amazing and like the United Nations!  The world is changing and we might as well accept that society is evolving.  And if we want access to all parts of the world with our goods and travel, then it's a foregone conclusion that the world will be coming here.  Time to relax and enjoy the variety.  And if some folks don't exactly match our notion of what's the right way to do things, make an effort to get along anyway.  Because who ever said 'ours' is the only way things should be done.  As for the cutting in line, etc., I've seen any number of white Canadians doing exactly the same thing as I've gone through life.  It's not a 'brown' issue or a 'white' issue, it's a people issue.


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## Redd (Jul 1, 2016)

Debby said:


> The world is changing and we might as well accept y.  And if some folks don't exactly match our notion of what's the right way to do things, make an effort to get along anyway.  Because who ever said 'ours' is the only way things should be done.  As for the cutting in line, etc., I've seen any number of white Canadians doing exactly the same thing as I've gone through life.  It's not a 'brown' issue or a 'white' issue, it's a people issue.



I can agree with you on some of what you say Debby. This country was built on immigrants that had different ways than ours but their core values were somewhat the same. I have to ask if you would eat a meal prepared by someone that refused to use soap to wash their hands after using the toilet as there might be alcohol in the solution. 

I must agree with you that there are rude home grown Canadians that are pushy too. The difference is that I could voice an objection to their behavior. To a Muslim you simply cannot and they sense this and play on it.

It bothers me that I felt I had to quit a volunteer job at a food bank. My choice but I simply could not go on watching food provided by members of a predominately white church be hand delivered to Muslim families while elderly white clients were made to take a bus or get a ride to get their food. The reason was simply that these Muslim women were not allowed out unaccompanied so they insisted on delivery as their husbands were working. I had to give my head a shake as to why it is all right for these same women to travel in groups of other women to go shopping.


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## Cookie (Jul 1, 2016)

I haven't been in a mall for years, but last time I was it was crowded with young people.  I live in the uptown inner city and my experiences are similarly lacking in contact with Muslim customers in shops and streets, except maybe with the dollar store proprietors.  But I have no doubt that in the suburban areas where the communities are more dense my experience would probably be very different and I wouldn't want to discount someone's story, since I don't live there.  On crowded subways certain ethnic patrons do push and elbow their way into the cars ahead of everyone else, since maybe that's how they did it back where they came from. Sticking to this forum's party line of being overly sympathetic is nice, but not always realistic.


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## Shalimar (Jul 1, 2016)

Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,


you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is  large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."


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## Ruthanne (Jul 1, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,
> 
> 
> you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is  large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."


Yes, we are all the human race!  Can you imagine if dogs had caninephobia of some sort.  There would be Rottwielers walking around saying "I'm not going to let my pups play with those shih tzus because I don't like the way their butt smells!"  Or a Collie saying "I don't like what those German Shepards eat, I will only eat Spam!"


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## Ameriscot (Jul 1, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Peeps is peeps. I work with Muslim colleagues, have Muslim clients, socialise with Muslims. Some are refugees, some are homegrown. They are no more or less perfect that anyone else. There are soaps readily available which do not contain alcohol,
> 
> 
> you can find enclaves of most ethnic groups anywhere where the population is  large enough to permit. Rude and pushy come in all human varieties. So do kind and compassionate. For the moment, Islamophobia is the flavour of the week/month/year. Ultimately, there is only one race, the human race. There is no "them," only "us."



Yes!


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## Lethe200 (Jul 1, 2016)

Redd said:


> ...Those who welcome them [Muslims] have not lived with them on their doorstep. I have gone shopping, they cut in line right in front of you and dare you to say something. No apologies if they ram you with a shopping cart either.



Well, since one of my best friends is a Turkish Muslim, and our area (the San Francisco Bay Area, NorCA) has one of the LARGEST Muslim populations in the U.S., I'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.

Pushing ahead in line? Try going to France, it's an art form there. 

Do you believe all those stories about how polite the Japanese are? Try working with Japanese male executives, as I did at one of our local banks. You could always tell the newly transferred-to-the-U.S. Bank of Tokyo execs, they practically flattened all the women, both Japanese and American, elbowing their way into the elevator first! It was actually pretty funny (and I'm Japanese-American).

My Hong Kong-born spouse used to wince at my behavior with his parents. Compared to Asian behavior my American attitudes were crass, rude, and borderline obnoxious.

My culture is no better than yours, and neither one is better than any other. They're just different...and a little understanding of that can go a very long way.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 1, 2016)

Lethe200 said:


> Well, since one of my best friends is a Turkish Muslim, and our area (the San Francisco Bay Area, NorCA) has one of the LARGEST Muslim populations in the U.S., I'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.
> 
> Pushing ahead in line? Try going to France, it's an art form there.
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## Shalimar (Jul 1, 2016)

lethe200 said:


> well, since one of my best friends is a turkish muslim, and our area (the san francisco bay area, norca) has one of the largest muslim populations in the u.s., i'd have to say my experience has been very different than yours.
> 
> Pushing ahead in line? Try going to france, it's an art form there.
> 
> ...


qft.


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## Cookie (Jul 1, 2016)

Lon said:


> Since Muslims of the Sharia persuasion believe that Sharia Law supercedes all other laws why would we ever want to allow them entry?



Original poster's question might be considered rather contentious and inviting argument, as not allowing Muslim immigrants or other immigrants based on their religion is unconstitutional in U.S. as well as in Canada, no matter what anyone thinks, is it not so?


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## Shalimar (Jul 1, 2016)

cookie said:


> original poster's question might be considered rather contentious and inviting argument, as not allowing muslim immigrants or other immigrants based on their religion is unconstitutional in u.s. As well as in canada, no matter what anyone thinks, is it not so?


qft.


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## Ruthanne (Jul 1, 2016)

What is qft.?


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## tnthomas (Jul 1, 2016)

Ruthanne said:


> What is qft.?



Means *Q*uoted* F*or *T*ruth.




PS if you like, you can "right click" then "save as" the little QFT smilie, then insert it(upload) in a post.


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## Ruthanne (Jul 1, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> *M*eans *Q*uoted For *T*ruth.
> 
> 
> View attachment 30354
> ...


Thank you!  I've been wondering what that meant.


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## Debby (Jul 2, 2016)

Redd said:


> I can agree with you on some of what you say Debby. This country was built on immigrants that had different ways than ours but their core values were somewhat the same. I have to ask if you would eat a meal prepared by someone that refused to use soap to wash their hands after using the toilet as there might be alcohol in the solution.
> 
> I must agree with you that there are rude home grown Canadians that are pushy too. The difference is that I could voice an objection to their behavior. To a Muslim you simply cannot and they sense this and play on it.
> 
> It bothers me that I felt I had to quit a volunteer job at a food bank. My choice but I simply could not go on watching food provided by members of a predominately white church be hand delivered to Muslim families while elderly white clients were made to take a bus or get a ride to get their food. The reason was simply that these Muslim women were not allowed out unaccompanied so they insisted on delivery as their husbands were working. I had to give my head a shake as to why it is all right for these same women to travel in groups of other women to go shopping.




I've never suggested that our way of life must be discarded as newcomers move in.  Obviously they're coming here for a reason and part of the 'safety' and 'opportunity' aspects of our country hinge on our laws and ways of doing things.   It just takes time to learn and make the adjustments I think.

As for your experience at the food bank, seriously, I find your explanation concerning.  If they had no food and a family to feed, how are they any different in that basic need than any white family? As for someone bringing over food, well, maybe those clients had no understanding of bus systems or were afraid and not able to speak english well enough yet to feel able to venture out by themselves but if they are with a few other women who speak the same language, they are not so afraid to go out by themselves to do a little shopping?  Could what you describe there be a result of a highly visible woman's fear of being accosted by someone that she can't speak to and who is hostile to her presence?   A perfect example of that would be that horrible woman in Ontario that assaulted the Muslim woman who was out with her four year old daughter.  If you were a newcomer and couldn't speak the language at all, how would you handle a situation like that?   I know that I would be terrified.

 In the past few years I've learned a new style of mulling over a situation and it always starts with asking myself the question, 'how would I feel......if I had no food and a family to feed, if my kids had a substandard education in a world that requires credentials, if I was disabled and lonely and couldn't get out, if I was the only one of a different colour in a crowd of people......'    It has done wonders for my ability to understand and empathize with the fear that new comers or 'outsiders' might be experiencing.

Pointing to differences in behaviour as a reason for not liking people also suggests that the newcomers will never learn our ways, will never assimilate and I think statistically, that's untrue.  They might behave differently in the beginning, but unless they have mental illnesses, most people want to fit in and get along.  Again, put yourself in their place and imagine that you've been forced to move to some non-english speaking country.  Would you blend in seamlessly or would you commit some social faux-pas in the beginning?  

This morning I was watching the National and they talked to a Syrian family that is now living in Lethbridge, Alberta.  The kids are in school, working hard to fit in and the parents are both in english classes as well and they have a goal of being fluent in English within a year.  So commendable but exhausting for all of them because there is so much to learn.  The one son wants to go to university to become a mechanical engineer and the other is hoping for either a future as an engineer or a doctor.  They will add to our country as the years go by so it seems to me that if they are different in some ways, they are also the same in so many.   

I was really moved at one point.  The sponsor group had given them a camera to be used to record special moments or images that were meaningful in their new home.  The first morning, the father was awakened early by a sound outside their bedroom window and when he looked out, he saw a herd of five or six deer who were relaxing on the grass outside their house.  He woke the family up to see them and he said, 'when he saw the deer there and saw that they felt so safe that they could move about and nobody harmed them, then he knew that his family would be safe too'.  

They have dreams and goals and love their families and are willing to work hard to achieve those goals.  But in the beginning, maybe it will take some extra help. I think we Canadians are the kind of people who can do that for others.


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## Redd (Jul 2, 2016)

Debby, it is said that sometimes we must walk a mile in another's shoes in order to experience what they experience. I would hazard a guess that you live in a small town. 

As far as the food bank, they take advantage, period. They also come in late model vehicles, husband, wife and kids making the rounds of all the food banks and there are those that will comply with bending the rules for fear of being labelled racist. It's nicer to be viewed as nice. And don't try to explain the rules, that they should register with only one and they suddenly don't understand English. They do this in order to pick and choose what they will eat and throw the rest into the bushes outside the food bank. And let's face it, with the money doled out to them by our Canadian government there is no need for a food bank in the first place.

So we will agree to disagree on this.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2016)

I can recall when "they" were First Nations people.


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## Debby (Jul 2, 2016)

Redd’s comment about the Canadian government taking care of refugee’s needs being sufficient that they shouldn’t need to use the food bank, made me curious so I thought I’d look it up.


According to the CTV, the benefits are as follows:


.  the support is only available for one year.


. the maximum they could receive for that one year is $25,000 per family.  That   includes a one time start-up payment and then the monthly income support.


.  these figures are based on the provincial social assistance rates.


. the start up amount is roughly $2065.00 and would cover the basics like furniture,  winter clothing, telephone installation.  


. in Ontario, the estimated monthly assistance would be $768.00 but that figure   depends on the individuals circumstances.




This support is only given to federally sponsored refugees, but if they are sponsored by family members, they don’t receive anything.  It should also be noted that most refugees end up in debt at the end of the year because they are expected to repay the cost of their transportation to Canada as well as any other related expenses with interest.  The Council on Refugees says that more than 90% of refugees repay their loans.


The family I mentioned in that other comment of mine has five or six kids.  $25,000.00 for a family of 8 is going to mean that they will need help via a food bank.  I think if Redd was seeing clients coming in ’nice’ cars, they are likely private sponsored and the cars belong to the families that sponsor/support them. 


http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/fact-check-do-refugees-get-more-financial-help-than-canadian-pensioners-1.2670735


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## senile1 (Jul 2, 2016)

Debby said:


> I've never suggested that our way of life must be discarded as newcomers move in.  Obviously they're coming here for a reason and part of the 'safety' and 'opportunity' aspects of our country hinge on our laws and ways of doing things.   It just takes time to learn and make the adjustments I think.
> 
> As for your experience at the food bank, seriously, I find your explanation concerning.  If they had no food and a family to feed, how are they any different in that basic need than any white family? As for someone bringing over food, well, maybe those clients had no understanding of bus systems or were afraid and not able to speak english well enough yet to feel able to venture out by themselves but if they are with a few other women who speak the same language, they are not so afraid to go out by themselves to do a little shopping?  Could what you describe there be a result of a highly visible woman's fear of being accosted by someone that she can't speak to and who is hostile to her presence?   A perfect example of that would be that horrible woman in Ontario that assaulted the Muslim woman who was out with her four year old daughter.  If you were a newcomer and couldn't speak the language at all, how would you handle a situation like that?   I know that I would be terrified.
> 
> ...





People feed on advantages available to them. I never let anyone's racial/ ethnic/ religious/ gender.....ect, influence my dealings with people. The very thought of  discrimination is serious
and should be addressed accordingly, but there are those who use this very term to try and take advantage of you, they expect you jump at the very mention of the word. This term has erroneously been used so much that when acts of discrimination do occur people think it is just another ploy to capitalize on others. No matter our social status, we are all a people of a common race(human), separated by ideology. When this ideology becomes the detriment of society, it's time for it to go.


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## Debby (Jul 2, 2016)

You know, there are always going to be people who try to abuse the system.  Doesn't matter what system, there are scammers.  But the only way our societies move forward if we take a chance and get the systems set up with as many safeguards as possible.  No one likes to be taken advantage of and that includes the taxpayers.  We have to make the ideology of being kind and compassionate human beings the guide as we go forward, no matter what the culture.  Religion, language, food....all culture, but an ideology of understanding and kindness can be learned if we talk about it.

And I'm positive there are Muslim people all across the country and the world, who have that as their guide too.  I've heard some of them talk on panels on talk shows so they are there.  But the focus is so much on the horror stories that it seems that 'that there's no time left' to hear any good ones and now you have to spend time convincing people that there are some positive Muslim stories.

That's my perspective, my opinion and others may see it differently because their life experiences are different, but you talked about 'the detriment of society' and I think that kind of ideology that I'm pining for would be a benefit for society everywhere.


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## Underock1 (Jul 2, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Don't forget them pinko Canucks. We gots all them Muslim refugees just waiting to invade/destroy America!!



We should ban the pinko Canucks too, spreading their dangerous ideas about like loving thy neighbor and stuff. They could ruin the country!:grrr:


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2016)

Yep Underock, Canucks are sooooo destructive! Lol.


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## RadishRose (Jul 2, 2016)

what does Quoted For Truth  mean, anyway?


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## Debby (Jul 2, 2016)

Probably something like, 'I agree with what you just said'?


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## HazyDavey (Jul 2, 2016)

You know, this might have been akin to what the Native American Indians were thinking way back in the day..

View attachment 30387


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## tnthomas (Jul 2, 2016)

Debby said:


> Probably something like, 'I agree with what you just said'?




*Q*uoted *F*or *T*ruth


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## RadishRose (Jul 4, 2016)

Funny way of saying that, but thanks.  The phrase actually seems meaningless.


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