# Immigration Is Damaging Britain...You Don't Say....I Didn't Know That!!!



## boozercruiser (Oct 6, 2015)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/re...-Britain-says-Camerons-interior-minister.html


MANCHESTER, England, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Mass immigration is damaging British society, Conservative interior minister Theresa May said on Tuesday, promising a tough approach on an issue that will influence Britons' choice of whether or not to leave the European Union.

"When immigration is too high, when the pace of change is too fast, it's impossible to build a cohesive society," May, seen as a possible future leader, told a party conference in the northern city of Manchester.

Mass immigration strained public services like schools and hospitals, depressed wages and pushed people out of work, she said, describing the economic benefits as "close to zero".

_*Net migration to Britain reached a high of 330,000 people in the year to March,*_ far above the "tens of thousands" Prime Minister David Cameron promised to reduce it to. More than half comes from EU nationals, who are free to move within the 28-country bloc.

That has fuelled support for rival parties, especially the anti-EU UK Independence Party, and is looming as a major issue in the referendum on Britain's EU membership that Cameron has promised to call by the end of 2017.

May's speech went down well with party activists but drew criticism from the Institute of Directors, an employers' group.

____________________

_*It has been a no brainer for me that uncontrolled Mass Immigration will damage ANY country over time.*__* But it looks like the UK government have finaly cottoned on!

Of course they won't be able to do anything about it while GB is in the EU, so as far as I am concerned this is just so much hot air.

AGAIN !!!*_


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 6, 2015)

And the good chance that the UK will be leaving the EU was one of my reasons for voting for Scotland independence. And Scotland would welcome migrants.


----------



## Fern (Oct 6, 2015)

You can have too much of a 'good thing', get too many and it's not long before they start demanding changes to the society you have known all your life just to fit in with their beliefs. They don't believe in the word compromise.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 6, 2015)

Fern said:


> You can have too much of a 'good thing', get too many and it's not long before they start demanding changes to the society you have known all your life just to fit in with their beliefs. They don't believe in the word compromise.



Yes Fern, and here is a fine example of what you say, written by Littlejohn out of the british Daily Mail...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ausing-offence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html

Now they even want to BAN bacon sarnies: Report that said products should be banned at work is yet another example of the national obsession with not causing offence, writes RICHARD LITTLEJOHN

What was I saying on Friday about how the national obsession with not causing offence to anyone is bordering on mental illness?

That was in reaction to a week which had seen an RAF sergeant kicked out of a hospital waiting room for wearing his uniform because it could offend 'other cultures' and a students' union banning sombreros on the grounds that they were a racist insult to Mexicans.

If you thought those two examples were rip-roaring bonkers, then what are we to make of a new report that seeks to ban bacon sarnies and microwaved sausage rolls?

According to someone described as the Professor of Faith and Public Policy at Goldsmiths, University of London, consumption of pork-related products at work could seriously upset non-Christian colleagues — not to mention vegetarians.

Adam Dinham has drawn up a 'religious literacy' programme aimed at employers, commissioned by an outfit called CoExist and a 'professional services' firm EY, whatever that is.

He says companies must take account of the religious sensibilities of everyone from Muslims and Jews to Buddhists, Sikhs and Scientologists. Fair enough. That's still no reason to ban ham sandwiches from communal kitchens, though.


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 6, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Yes Fern, and here is a fine example of what you say, written by Littlejohn out of the british Daily Mail...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ausing-offence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html
> 
> ...



Can you confirm these stories with another source?  I tend to take anything in the Daily Mail with a grain of salt.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 6, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> And the good chance that the UK will be leaving the EU was one of my reasons for voting for Scotland independence. And Scotland would welcome migrants.



Hi Ameriscot.

We usually agree on most thing I do believe.
BUT, if you read that article, the problem is not controlled imigration, but uncontrolled MASS IMMIGRATION.

If you don't mind MASS immigration 
(_*Net migration to Britain reached a high of 330,000 people in the year to March*_), 
then good luck to Scotland with that! 
But for me, mass imigration has caused no end of problems in England.
The indiginous population is getting swamped by people with far different cultures than us. 
Our hospitals are swamped, our schools are swamped and there arn't enough jobs or housing to cope with unlimited amounts of people coming here.!
I could rant for England on this one, but I guess I have said enough, and you get the gist!?


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 7, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Yes Fern, and here is a fine example of what you say, written by Littlejohn out of the british Daily Mail...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ausing-offence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html
> 
> ...



I agree that this type of ban on bacon rolls at work etc are ridiculous.  I am not anti-Muslim but this is just too much!  If we immigrated to a Muslim country do you think they would make changes to their culture to accommodate us?  Not a chance.  When anyone immigrates to a different culture you can't and shouldn't try to change the culture to accommodate you.  If one can't accept the new culture, then leave. 

I think it would be a disaster for GB to leave the EU.  I don't read up on everything about this issue.  I'm not directly affected in my area.  But I can see how it would be a difficult issue in the big cities.  I don't know the answer.


----------



## Davey Jones (Oct 7, 2015)

Germany first welcomed thousand then they smartened up and said "what the hell???"


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 7, 2015)

330.000 additional people on a crowded island doesn't bode well for anyone. Do 330,000 new jobs await as do 330,000 housing units?


----------



## Pam (Oct 7, 2015)

The *advice* … stipulates  that employees should be careful of the kinds of foods prepared in  communal kitchens in case it upsets colleagues of certain faiths …  Professor Adam Dinham *suggests* not microwaving sausage rolls in a shared kitchen space. He also *advises*  that you should not keep bacon, or bacon rolls, in the fridge if it is  shared with people whose beliefs prohibit them from eating pork.


As the excerpt above clarified, the  purported “ban” in actuality merely referenced new voluntary guidelines  proposed by London-based interfaith group Coexist House Not only were details of the guidelines not provided for review  (calling into question whether they even strongly emphasized sensitivity  to Muslims over other faiths), but* even the nebulous description  provided of them in no way described any form of “ban.” *

_*No government  agency in the U.S. or UK had a hand in the development of whatever the  guidelines contained, nor was any individual or workplace in any way  obliged to abide by them.


*_http://m.snopes.com/offices-ban-pork-muslims


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2015)

Wow, that certainly puts a different "complexion" on things, doesn't it? Misinformation rears it's ugly head, spinning more anti Muslim rhetoric. Sad, and unfair.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

Pam said:


> The *advice* … stipulates  that employees should be careful of the kinds of foods prepared in  communal kitchens in case it upsets colleagues of certain faiths …  Professor Adam Dinham *suggests* not microwaving sausage rolls in a shared kitchen space. He also *advises*  that you should not keep bacon, or bacon rolls, in the fridge if it is  shared with people whose beliefs prohibit them from eating pork.
> 
> 
> As the excerpt above clarified, the  purported “ban” in actuality merely referenced new voluntary guidelines  proposed by London-based interfaith group Coexist House Not only were details of the guidelines not provided for review  (calling into question whether they even strongly emphasized sensitivity  to Muslims over other faiths), but* even the nebulous description  provided of them in no way described any form of “ban.” *
> ...




So how long do you think so called 'voluntary' guidlines and 'advice' will last then Pam?
I reckon around 5 minutes!


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> 330.000 additional people on a crowded island doesn't bode well for anyone. Do 330,000 new jobs await as do 330,000 housing units?



Or Hospitals or all of the other infrastructor items that are needed because of MASS imigration.

But to the above amount can be added the millions of immigrants who arrived before that.
The UK is FULL.
End Of!

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...n-damages-Britain-Theresa-May-Express-comment

*Theresa May makes it official - Immigration damages Britain
*
She spells out very clearly the threat to the fabric of our society. At a time when the Chancellor is rightly trying to take an axe to borrowing and spending, the record rise in immigration is forcing Britain to fund the building of 210,000 new homes every year and provide 900,000 new school places in the next nine years – Mrs May’s figures, not mine.

Anyone who has tried to get a doctor’s appointment or who has been unlucky enough to go to A&E knows only too well the intolerable pressure that is being put on the NHS. Anyone whose children or grandchildren have recently left school shares the despair of those who find it impossible to get a job.

She spells out very clearly the threat to the fabric of our society
As Mrs May puts it: “When immigration is too high, when the pace of change is too fast, it’s impossible to build a cohesive society. It’s difficult for schools and hospitals and core infrastructure like housing and transport to cope. And for people in low-paid jobs, wages are forced down even further while some people are forced out of work altogether.”

She paints a bleak and desperate picture which is entirely accurate and which heaps shame on those zealots of multi-culturalism in the last Labour government who opened the floodgates and sat gloating as the destruction of our country gathered pace.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/609675/Squalid-evil-slums-immigration-Britain

*Squalid evil slums: What immigration is doing to Britain

What was it Jeremy Corbyn told his gloating faithful at the Labour Party conference this week? Oh yes... mass immigration is "nothing but a plus" for Britain. It's "not necessarily a problem" and should be seen as an opportunity. Corbyn says we should "celebrate" the influx of four million immigrants.

Tell that to the people of the West Midlands, Slough, Ealing, Hounslow, Bradford, Kent - in fact just about every built-up area in the land. Tell them the appalling squalor, the mattresses in the gardens, the stinking piles of rubbish, the human waste in the street, the overcrowded primary schools, the jam-packed A&E and doctors' receptions, the dirt, the decay and the deprivation are a cause for celebration.

*


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 7, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Yes Fern, and here is a fine example of what you say, written by Littlejohn out of the british Daily Mail...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ausing-offence-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html
> 
> ...



What ever happened to assimilation. It's the migrants that should be worried about not offending the host they imposed themselves on.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> What ever happened to assimilation. It's the migrants that should be worried about not offending the host they imposed themselves on.



*You have got to be joking WhatIn The.*

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/52...-Anjem-Choudary-rejects-authority-British-law

*Radical Islamic cleric declares BRITISH law is invalid...in BRITAIN
*
RADICAL cleric Anjem Choudary sparked fury today by declaring he 'doesn't accept' that British law is valid in the UK.

The 46-year-old hate preacher made the extraordinary statement when asked if jihadist fighters returning from Syria should have their passports confiscated and be charged under anti-terror laws.

Choudary blasted: "I don't accept British law. If you have a law, you need to apply it universally. These laws are only being applied against Muslims.

"This [anti-terror legislation] is purely being hyped-up to support the bombing campaign that is taking place in Iraq and Syria."

He also spoke of his support for Islamic State (ISIS) and claimed a ban on jihadists returning to Britain would 'alienate' the Muslim community.

He added: "If these guys have actually not committed any crime in England, then why are we stopping them returning?

"I think it's a very ill thought-out policy, I don't think it will work.

"I think it will disenfranchise the Muslim community here, I think it would be a cause of further radicalisation in this country."

Choudary has always denied that he has incited or glorified acts of terrorism.


_____________

*Not when this is allowed to happen, some immigrants arn't bovvered about offending us at all!*


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 7, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> You have got to be joking WhatIn The.
> 
> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/52...-Anjem-Choudary-rejects-authority-British-law
> 
> ...



They're trying to force the narrative that all these migrants are victims along with planting more seeds for a one world government with fewer borders. UK already has to deal with the EU. Perpetuate "victim" enough and many will have pity and before you know it's one big pity party: mob rule-not the citizens but what ever the mob consists of at that time.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> They're trying to force the narrative that all these migrants are victims along with planting more seeds for a one world government with fewer borders. UK already has to deal with the EU. Perpetuate "victim" enough and many will have pity and before you know it's one big pity party: mob rule-not the citizens but what ever the mob consists of at that time.




Well said.
I could not have put that better myself What.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

Pam said:


> The *advice* … stipulates  that employees should be careful of the kinds of foods prepared in  communal kitchens in case it upsets colleagues of certain faiths …  Professor Adam Dinham *suggests* not microwaving sausage rolls in a shared kitchen space. He also *advises*  that you should not keep bacon, or bacon rolls, in the fridge if it is  shared with people whose beliefs prohibit them from eating pork.
> 
> 
> As the excerpt above clarified, the  purported “ban” in actuality merely referenced new voluntary guidelines  proposed by London-based interfaith group Coexist House Not only were details of the guidelines not provided for review  (calling into question whether they even strongly emphasized sensitivity  to Muslims over other faiths), but* even the nebulous description  provided of them in no way described any form of “ban.” *
> ...



It's just common sense. We are having a church Market Day next Saturday. I'm running the Kitchen Café and I have invited some Muslim women to come for a visit. There will be bacon cooked outside on the BBQ and we will have some ham sandwiches in the café but I am not making any bacon and cheese topped scones for the café because when warmed up, the smell would be offensive to people who don't or aren't allowed to eat it. Instead we will have savoury scones with cheese and onion or with Kalamata olives served with a bowl of home made pumpkin soup. Perfectly halal for the Muslims and also very acceptable to the Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and vegetarians.

Small accommodations don't hurt anybody and are very much appreciated.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> It's just common sense. We are having a church Market Day next Saturday. I'm running the Kitchen Café and I have invited some Muslim women to come for a visit. There will be bacon cooked outside on the BBQ and we will have some ham sandwiches in the café but I am not making any bacon and cheese topped scones for the café because when warmed up, the smell would be offensive to people who don't or aren't allowed to eat it. Instead we will have savoury scones with cheese and onion or with Kalamata olives served with a bowl of home made pumpkin soup. Perfectly halal for the Muslims and also very acceptable to the Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and vegetarians.
> 
> Small accommodations don't hurt anybody and are very much appreciated.



Yes Warrigail, with respect, that is all well and good.
BUT.
I want a Bacon and Cheese topped Scone at your lovely Kitchen Cafe on Saturday.
I would fly over to Australia just to have one, and to be with you.
But I can't have a lovely and tasty, Bacon and  Cheese Topped Scone.
Can I?
Immigration caused that.
Case proved!  layful:

'Now they even want to BAN bacon sarnies: Report that said products  should be banned at work is yet another example of the national  obsession with not causing offence, writes RICHARD LITTLEJOHN

What was I saying on Friday about how the national obsession with not causing offence to anyone is bordering on mental illness'?


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Yes Warrigail, with respect, that is all well and good.
> BUT.
> I want a Bacon and Cheese topped scone at your lovely Kitchen Cafe on Saturday.
> But I can't have one, can I?
> ...



No you can't, because I am in charge of the kitchen and I am also the cook but you can have a hamburger with the works at the BBQ.
Also I have not yet expanded my repertoire to include bacon and cheese scones anyway but if I was thinking of it this year I decided not to BECAUSE I HAVE INVITED SOME MUSLIM WOMEN AS MY GUESTS. It's manners, mate.

We have a play group at the church and occasionally we have some Sikh mothers attend. We still serve meat, including beef, but we also make sure there are sandwich fillings that are acceptable to Sikhs. How is this an example of immigration ruining anything? Talk about a storm in a tea cup.


----------



## Susie (Oct 7, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> Germany first welcomed thousand then they smartened up and said "what the hell???"


http://www.spiegel.de/international...ancellor-merkel-divides-europe-a-1053603.html

Do you think Frau Merkel finds herself in "hot water" over the refugee issue?
Will she win the Nobel Prize today? http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-10-06/angela-merkel-should-win-the-nobel-peace-prize


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 7, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> No you can't, because I am in charge of the kitchen and I am also the cook but you can have a hamburger with the works at the BBQ.
> Also I have not yet expanded my repertoire to include bacon and cheese scones anyway but if I was thinking of it this year I decided not to BECAUSE I HAVE INVITED SOME MUSLIM WOMEN AS MY GUESTS. It's manners, mate.
> 
> We have a play group at the church and occasionally we have some Sikh mothers attend. We still serve meat, including beef, but we also make sure there are sandwich fillings that are acceptable to Sikhs. How is this an example of immigration ruining anything? *Talk about a storm in a tea cup*.



Well it is pretty obvious that you and I are just going to beg to differ on this subject Warrigal
Never mind.
I will keep away from that storm in your teacup now!
After all, I don't want to get wet now.
Do I?


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2015)

People will always find straw arguments to defend prejudice. I refuse to live in a world defined by "us" and "them."


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

:grin: Just as well Boozer and a tea cup is all you'll get at the church market day. 
Alcohol is unavailable too, and that has nothing to do with any muslim prohibition. 
We're Methodists by another name.


----------



## Pookie (Oct 7, 2015)

Here in the US, I made the mistake of wearing a t-shirt with the American flag on it on cinco de Mayo. I went grocery shopping, and the manager of the store told me to leave.

I was offending Mexican-Americans, so he said. He said I could come back with a different shirt on.

On the outside of this store was the American flag on a pole. The flag was flying as usual.

I replied, "I will when you take down that flag outside. And if you do, I'll never shop here and again and tell everyone I know never to shop here."

He said, "I can't. It's company policy to have the flag out there."

"Excellent," I smiled. "And it's my personal policy, as I gave nearly 26 years in the Army for this country, to wear whatever I want, whenever I want. Have a nice day."

I walked off and continued shopping. He followed me a little, giving me the stink-eye, but I ignored him.

Gaaaaahhhhhh!!

I don't think I'd refuse to cook bacon or pork products around Muslims unless I were in a Muslim country. Manners are one thing, yep, but being run over is quite another.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

We celebrate immigration in Australia. Without it we wouldn't be the country that we are.
We'd be like the Falkland Islands but on a much bigger island.

Every school child can probably sing this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vlfc647M3w

We still need immigrants and we have room for refugees as well.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> What ever happened to assimilation. It's the migrants that should be worried about not offending the host they imposed themselves on.



Agree!  When we were stationed in various parts of the world, we always got a briefing about not offending the locals, NOT the other way round!


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

Assimilation is about interaction. If we want people to fit in with us, perhaps we should invite them to some of the things we do and celebrate.

That's why I have invited the Muslim ladies to come to our church market day. 
I've told them that when their mosque is finally opened I want an invitation to visit in return.


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Yes Warrigail, with respect, that is all well and good.
> BUT.
> I want a Bacon and Cheese topped Scone at your lovely Kitchen Cafe on Saturday.
> I would fly over to Australia just to have one, and to be with you.
> ...



Richard Littlejohn is a well known racist. I wouldn't quote someone like him. Read something besides the Daily Mail.


----------



## Pookie (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Assimilation is about interaction. If we want people to fit in with us, perhaps we should invite them to some of the things we do and celebrate.
> 
> That's why I have invited the Muslim ladies to come to our church market day.
> I've told them that when their mosque is finally opened I want an invitation to visit in return.



That's good! 

I just think that as Muslims are welcome, you have the right to treat them well and invite them to anything you're involved in. That is a personal choice and it's okay, of course.

Have you ever been to a Mosque? Be very very careful. Be sure you're wearing a burkha and covered completely from head to toe. Be sure you know the callings where you either stand or get down again.

Understand the prayer rituals. Have an authorized copy of the Qu'ran with you, and make sure you studied it before you go, so you understand the prayers.

Also, the prayers and tomes may not be in English and the Imam will not put these in English for you. 

Just inviting a few Muslim women to a Christian church function does not make you an ambassador. Have you ever been in the Middle East? I have. Have you ever understood their worship practices? I have.

Dress appropriately, understand the Qu'ran before you go, and learn about prayers.

I wish you luck and I ask, please don't ignore me. 

I wish you good blessings.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

_Yes, I have been to several mosques, in Turkey, Egypt and Sydney.
As a visitor and a tourist, not as a worshipper.
I was well received each time and never made to feel uncomfortable.

Last year we visited Malaysia and Indonesia but did not enter any of the mosques that were on our itinerary, just admired them from the outside. I did enter a Buddhist temple in Singapore.

Here is a photo of me at the Lakemba mosque in Sydney.



My only concession to my normal dress was to wear, rather badly as it turns out, a shawl over my head.
Naturally I removed my shoes as well. 

On the same day we visited a Buddhist ashram (?) in Bankstown, Sydney



And a Sikh gurdwara even closer to my home. They supplied us with a typical Sikh vegetarian meal, which everyone ate sitting on the floor.
This symbolises that in Sikhism there is no class structure. No-one is above anyone else.

I've been back there since and sat through some of the worship ceremony, also sitting on the floor.

 







_


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

That's wonderful, Warrigal!  A truly open and adventurous mind.  An Ashram is Hindu, Buddhists have temples.  Love the Buddhist temples in Thailand!

I thought I'd read recently that Australia had become stricter on immigration because so many jobs had disappeared thanks to Tony?


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

Pam said:


> The *advice* … stipulates  that employees should be careful of the kinds of foods prepared in  communal kitchens in case it upsets colleagues of certain faiths …  Professor Adam Dinham *suggests* not microwaving sausage rolls in a shared kitchen space. He also *advises*  that you should not keep bacon, or bacon rolls, in the fridge if it is  shared with people whose beliefs prohibit them from eating pork.
> 
> 
> As the excerpt above clarified, the  purported “ban” in actuality merely referenced new voluntary guidelines  proposed by London-based interfaith group Coexist House Not only were details of the guidelines not provided for review  (calling into question whether they even strongly emphasized sensitivity  to Muslims over other faiths), but* even the nebulous description  provided of them in no way described any form of “ban.” *
> ...




Ack!!  I should have known it was a crock.  I'd heard this before but didn't think to check on whether it was true.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

In 2013, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics,  net overseas migration (NOM) reflected an annual gain of 212,700 persons, 9.7% less than in 2012-13.
 We are probably accepting a similar level in 2014-2015.

 What Tony Abbott did was slash the level of humanitarian migration from 20,000 to 13,500 and make it much harder for people to come in under family reunion. It had nothing to do with unemployment and everything to do with demonising asylum seekers. The increased strictness is purely for electoral advantage.

 The number of humanitarian places has since been lifted by 12,000 which isn't as good as it sounds, given the earlier cut backs.

 Our unemployment level is around 6% which is not too unmanageable although some states, Tasmania and South Australia have higher levels. There are a lot of regional centres crying out for workers and there have been a couple of successful experiments involving resettling contingents of refugees from the same country in a country town to save the local abattoir or the nursing home, and of course, the schools are grateful for the extra enrolments.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Pookie said:


> Here in the US, I made the mistake of wearing a t-shirt with the American flag on it on cinco de Mayo. I went grocery shopping, and the manager of the store told me to leave.
> 
> I was offending Mexican-Americans, so he said. He said I could come back with a different shirt on.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your very interesting post there Pookie.
And the bottom line for me is that it is immigration which has caused that!!!

However, When In Rome, Do as the Romans do springs to mind.
Translated to..
When in America do as the Americans do
When In Australia, do as the Australians do.
When in England, do as the English do.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Pookie said:


> That's good!
> 
> I just think that as Muslims are welcome, you have the right to treat them well and invite them to anything you're involved in. That is a personal choice and it's okay, of course.
> 
> ...



And yet another thought provoking and interesting post which I agree with entirely Pookie.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Thank you for your very interesting post there Pookie.
> And the bottom line for me is that it is immigration which has caused that!!!
> 
> However, When In Rome, Do as the Romans do springs to mind.
> ...



Which Australians, Boozer? 
There's no way I'm ever going to eat a witchetty grub or dress in a possum skin cloak.
If the Italian immigrants did as the earlier immigrants did, I'd still be eating very boring working class English cuisine that my Australian mother served up and I would never have encountered the flavour of garlic.

I quite like Asian and Middle Eastern food too.

When I was in England we did do as the English did but to this day I'll never understand why pub food always came with a serving of chips, even when your meal included mashed potatoes. And gammon steak - what is that all about?


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Richard Littlejohn is a well known racist. I wouldn't quote someone like him. Read something besides the Daily Mail.


layful:
Now come on Ameriscot.
Please don't be silly.
Just because Littlejohn flags up the dangers of MASS immigration does not make him a racist.
Or me!
 And I will read whatever paper I want, thank you very much.layful:

Please allow me to tell you about something a little personal about myself Ameriscot.

When I met my Wife 20 years ago she had, and of course still has,  two black children from a previous relationship with a Jamaican West Indian.
She told me of this during our first dates, and asked me if it mattered.
I of course told her that it did not matter one jot to me, so after a year of knowing each other we got married.
This of course made me a step daddy to two black children, and I am proud to be just that!
I get on very well with both of them, as they are very nice young men.

So there!

Bacon Sarnie anyone?


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Women tend to bristle, quite rightly, when told not to be silly. We consider such terms as both condescending and sexist. I believe Prime Minister Cameron was caught telling women to calm down. Hmm, Canadianyr women would eat him alive for such arrogance. It is always best to address ideas rather than people.


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Women tend to bristle, quite rightly, when told not to be silly. We consider such terms as both condescending and sexist. I believe Prime Minister Cameron was caught telling women to calm down. Hmm, Canadianyr women would eat him alive for such arrogance. It is always best to address ideas rather than people.



Exactly!


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

And I don't see where anyone called you a racist, Boozer.
Perhaps the gentleman doth protest too much?


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 8, 2015)

But ar times shouldn't women stifle as Archie told Edith?


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> But ar times shouldn't women stifle as Archie told Edith?


 
:hit:


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> layful:
> Now come on Ameriscot.
> Please don't be silly.
> Just because Littlejohn flags up the dangers of MASS immigration does not make him a racist.
> ...



Yes, Littlejohn is a racist.  And having 2 black stepchildren does not mean you are not bigoted.  Vote UKIP did you?


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> And I don't see where anyone called you a racist, Boozer.
> Perhaps the gentleman doth protest too much?



NO, of course no one here has called me a racist Warrigal.
I am most certainly not.

Protesting too much though?

I can NEVER protest too much about MASS immigration,  because it is slowly but surely bringing our country and our culture down by swamping us with cultures which have nothing to do with the indiginous population.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...horing-borders-sees-six-point-rise-month.html

Migration is now a major fear for over half of Britons: Issue of shoring up borders sees six point rise in a month
The British public's concern about immigration has reached record heights
Some 56 per cent of the country say shoring up our borders is crucial
And 40 per cent believe it is the single biggest current concern facing UK.


----------



## Ameriscot (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Which Australians, Boozer?
> There's no way I'm ever going to eat a witchetty grub or dress in a possum skin cloak.
> If the Italian immigrants did as the earlier immigrants did, I'd still be eating very boring working class English cuisine that my Australian mother served up and I would never have encountered the flavour of garlic.
> 
> ...



Yep.  Which Americans?  It's a multicultural country as is Australia.  And in London there are people from every country in the world.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

Pookie said:
			
		

> Dress appropriately, understand the Qu'ran before you go, and learn about prayers.



Good advice Pookie but you don't have to understand the Qu'ran or learn the Salaah before entering a mosque as a visitor.

We have given our Sunday School children a lesson on Islamic prayers as part of a unit on prayer as a general topic. They learnt about the second pillar of Islam and the rules and prerequisites that are part of this ritual. Our source was a text book designed for Muslim children which a Muslim teacher kindly pointed me to when I was appealing for some help with the lesson. While giving respect to the Islamic tradition, we did emphasise the difference between that and the way we approach prayer as Christians. 

PS I love your username. I remember a childhood book about a character called Pookie. A rabbit? I can't remember the details.

Here you are Pookie - I found my memory


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

I live in a multicultural society. First nation language, along with the obligatory Francais, is taught as an elective in our schools. We have a new generation of kids some of whom can converse with indigenous people in their own language. This promotes understanding. I have eaten supper with Muslim friends during Ramadan, served Christmas dinner to Muslims, Sikhs, and Jews


on the houseboat, at the same time.Celebrated Chinese New Year with Asian friends. Passover with Jews. My son is godfather to his Chinese Canadian best friend's firstborn son. They consider each other brothers from another mother, best friends since my son was eight.  Forty percent of my family are Jewish. I have a Japanese daughter in law, raised Buddhist, now Muslim. I am an 

agnostic, leaning toward paganism, but was raised in a Christian household. Canada does not practice assimilation, but celebrates diversity. When misguided people smeared graffiti on a mosque, many people, including Christians, showed up to help clean up. That is multiculturalism in action. I wear Sikh suits on a regular basis, much to the delight of  the local Sikh 

women. I don't eat rabbit. I have English friends who do, but they would never put it on the menu when inviting me over to dine. That is cultural sensitivity. There are English institutions I would never slam in their presence also. Sensitivity again. Courtesy towards differences does not equal being overrun. I believe in a courteous society.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Yay Warri! I was raised on that Pookie. I asked Pookie if that was where her name came from, but it was not. I loved those books. I wonder if they are still in print?


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

On Boozer's graph, I found it interesting that the people most concerned with the immigration question were 65 and older, while interest declined considerably as age decreased. What is this discrepancy telling us?


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 8, 2015)

It is telling us that the young are naive...


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, Littlejohn is a racist.  And having 2 black stepchildren does not mean you are not bigoted.*  Vote UKIP did you?*



I most certainly did Ameriscot.
Along with FOUR MILLION others!


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Ah yes. I have seen UKIP on television. Bigots all. Hatred in the name of patriotism is a scary thing.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yep.  Which Americans?  It's a multicultural country as is Australia.  And in London there are people from every country in the world.



Oh! Now don't you worry Ameriscot, there are MILLIONS of Americans and Australians who are against MASS immigration.
In fact, as for Australia...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-the-boats-policy-solve-europe-migrant-crisis

Five years later Australia has implemented one of the harshest border policies in the world. It is characterised by three core points: turning or towing back boats of asylum seekers at sea; forcing asylum seekers to live in detention centres across the Pacific in Nauru and Papua New Guinea; and guaranteeing they will never be resettled in Australia.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> On Boozer's graph, I found it interesting that the people most concerned with the immigration question were 65 and older, while interest declined considerably as age decreased. What is this discrepancy telling us?









*Of course It is telling us that older people are much wiser Shalimar!
I know I am! layful:
*


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Uh huh. Unless I am mistaken, Oz tough border policy was largely attributed to the former Prime Minister Abbot, rampant racist and chauvinist extraordinaire. It will be interesting to see what occurs under the new leader.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Uh huh. Unless I am mistaken, Oz tough border policy was largely attributed to the former Prime Minister Abbot, rampant racist and chauvinist extraordinaire. It will be interesting to see what occurs under the new leader.



For goodness sake Shalimar.
With respect, you do appear to have a 'thing' about racism, do you not?
For me, this has absolutely *nothing* to do with racism.

It has only to do with *MASS* immigration and the no brainer fact that NO country can sustain it without ruining the fabrick of it's society.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> Oh! Now don't you worry Ameriscot, there are MILLIONS of Americans and Australians who are against MASS immigration.
> In fact, as for Australia...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-the-boats-policy-solve-europe-migrant-crisis
> ...


Mass immigration? Hardly.

The few wretched individuals who have washed up on our northern shores hardly amount to mass immigration. In the worst year 20,647 arrived by boat and there was a terrible incident where a boat foundered on the rocks at Christmas Island and a lot of people drowned. That upset people, understandably.

The government has only gotten away with this policy of demonization of asylum seekers by drawing an opaque curtain over them so that we Australians never see a face, never see a little child and as far as possible know nothing about the conditions to which they are condemned in our name.

It isn't working too well now and we are learning of the murders, rapes and appalling treatment of people who have committed no crime for which they could be charged in any court of law.

IMO someone should be hauled before the ICC over Australia's treatment of asylum seekers, particularly the treatment of the children.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> *Mass immigration? Hardly.*
> 
> The few wretched individuals who have washed up on our northern shores hardly amount to mass immigration. In the worst year 20,647 arrived by boat and there was a terrible incident where a boat foundered on the rocks at Christmas Island and a lot of people drowned. That upset people, understandably.
> 
> ...



England has had over four million immigrants (and that's only  the ones we know about) during the last 5 years.
Well over 300,000 this year alone.
Now with our population, as is.
THAT is *MASS* immigration!


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Please do not patronise me Boozer. I have a "thing" about many things I view as unjust. In that particular post, I referenced the fact that Mr. Abbot's policies were affected by his views on race. Ask Warri for clarification if you doubt me, she is far more intelligent about Oz than I. I did not call you out as a racist. If I were sexist, at this point, I would suggest you calm down. Lol.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Brava Warri! Well said.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Please do not patronise me Boozer. I have a "thing" about many things I view as unjust. In that particular post, I referenced the fact that Mr. Abbot's policies were affected by his views on race. Ask Warri for clarification if you doubt me, she is far more intelligent about Oz than I. I did not call you out as a racist. If I were sexist, at this point, I would suggest you calm down. Lol.



I wasn't meaning to patronise you at all Shalimar.
Honest I wasn't.

And I agree...


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Uh huh. Unless I am mistaken, Oz tough border policy was largely attributed to the former Prime Minister Abbot, rampant racist and chauvinist extraordinaire. It will be interesting to see what occurs under the new leader.


Not true, Shalimar. Mandatory detention was actually introduced by a Labor government before John Howard came to power. It was on Australian soil though and the refugees had access to our legal system. 

Then John Howard came into power and used the boat people as a political chip. Australians have a deep vein of xenophobia and the children overboard lie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair) won him  an election he looked like losing. The asylum seekers became known as "illegals" even though they were breaking no laws and after 911 the fear was that terrorists were lurking among them, just waiting to bomb Australians.  Howard passed legislation declaring that large parts of our northern coast and islands weren't part of Australia for the purpose of being considered to have arrived here. This allowed him to ignore international responsibilities to the asylum seekers and they could not have access to the courts. At best they had temporary protection visas and could be shipped back home if the government decided that they were no longer in danger. Howard introduced the Pacific Solution where asylum seekers were dumped on Nauru and Manus I. (PNG)

When Labor was returned to office it was partly because Rudd said "me too" to everything that Howard was doing except for the industrial relations policies. Howard had taken a step too far in cutting workers pay and conditions and it not only cost him government, it cost him his seat in parliament.

Rudd did nothing much to help the asylum seekers but he did dismantle the Pacific Solution and kept refugees on the mainland again. Then the numbers began to increase. From 2009 to 2013 they rose from 2726 to 20,647. Julia Gillard tried to negotiate a regional approach to the problem but was blocked in the senate. This would have involved the establishment of assessment centres in Malaysia and Indonesia with immigration accepting countries taking them from there in an orderly fashion. Anyone who came by boat would simply have been returned to a regional centre to wait their turn. An appeal to the High Court said that we couldn't send anyone to a country that was not a party to the Geneva Convention under our current legislation and the senate refused to allow the legislation to be changes. So it was back to Manus and Nauru. The old camps were dismantled so the refugees were sent to a tropical hell hole to live in tents in the blazing sun. This included pregnant women and nursing mothers.

Tony Abbott is only the last in a long line of abusers of vulnerable people. He made "Stop the Boats" his election mantra and he achieved this aim by very ruthless means. At least we think he achieved his aim but the secrecy surrounding boat towbacks and refoulement means we have no idea what has happened to these people. It is even against the law for Australians working for the camps to talk to a UN representative when they visit. To do so is to risk imprisonment. This applies to medical staff and teachers as well as guards. We do know that a Syrian man, desperate to end his imprisonment on Nauru has been talked into going back to Syria and an Afghan man was sent back to Kabul but was murdered by the Taliban as he tried to return to his home in the north. This tiny pieces of information are very worrying to people who care about our obligations as a civilised country.

Abbott is gone but neither his successor nor his chief opponent is prepared to take the electoral risk of bringing the asylum seekers back to the mainland for processing. At the moment there is scant processing taking place anywhere. The people are in a limbo  that looks more like hell.

There is a case before the High Court commencing soon and interestingly Nauru has suddenly said it will process all of its detainees in a week and turn them loose on the island. They will not be free to leave it, however. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-07/australian-offshore-processing-examined-by-high-court/6828464

The whole policy, from Keating to Turnbull has been one of escalating bastardry and the Australian people are to blame for it. Do not copy us.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Warri, thank you for setting me straight. I had no idea things were as horrific as you describe. Do you think anything positive will arise now that some secrecy has been penetrated?


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Thank you Boozer. I will remove my pink shirt, if you take off your brown one. Lol.layful:


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

Not unless the UN condemns us because there is bipartisan support for it and terrorism is being whipped up as a boogey man right now and that will play into the next election in 2016. Only the Greens continue to fight against it.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Thank you Boozer. I will remove my pink shirt, if you take off your brown one. Lol.layful:



Don't get shirty with me Darlin' !layful:


----------



## mitchezz (Oct 8, 2015)

Susie said:


> DW #63
> Gee, D.W., you're kinda going overboard here; I'm almost, but not entirely, scared of your overpowering intellect!
> Maybe you could visit another country for a while (Indonesia, China, Japan) and learn to do comparisons between countries regarding refugee strategies!
> Then on your return you could "teach" our gov. to behave "properly".



Susie if I've understood your post correctly you are saying that Australia is not as bad as some in the way we treat asylum seekers. So what? That doesn't make what we are doing right. I believe that Andrew Wilkie, a Tassie pollie, has lodged a complaint with The UN over our treatment of refugees.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Wow. Welcome to Personal Attacks R Us. Lol. Often the last bastion of a poor argument. True patriotism lies in the willingness of a people to hold their country/government to account, no matter how uncomfortable the circumstances, and work from within to affect change. For example, Americans faced difficult choices in the implementation of civil rights during the sixties. I applaud their patriotism, just as I now applaud Warri's.


----------



## Susie (Oct 8, 2015)

boozercruiser said:


> I wasn't meaning to patronise you at all Shalimar.
> Honest I wasn't.
> 
> And I agree...


Just love the above; very helpful, boozercruiser!!! :cheers1:


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Clarity, I wish to state very clearly that I am not equating what is happening in Oz today with the level of violence and struggle that characterized  the civil rights struggle, or intending to paint Oz as the poster child for inhuman treatment of minors. My intent was to support Warri and others like her in their honest appraisal of what is occurring in  their country, and their distress regarding these  practices.


----------



## mitchezz (Oct 8, 2015)

Good advice Susie, hope you follow it.


----------



## mitchezz (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Clarity, I wish to state very clearly that I am not equating what is happening in Oz today with the level of violence and struggle that characterized  the civil rights struggle, or intending to paint Oz as the poster child for inhuman treatment of minors. My intent was to support Warri and others like her in their honest appraisal of what is occurring in  their country, and their distress regarding these  practices.



No worries Shalimar. Not all Australians support the government's policies regarding refugees. Our shame is that so many do.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Oops, typo on my last post. Merde, this oold computer will not permit me to edit anything. Aargh. I meant to say migrants, not infer that Oz is locking up it's children. Eeewwww! Pleeeez don't feed me to the sharks. Mea culpa.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Thank you Mitchezz.


----------



## mitchezz (Oct 8, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Oops, typo on my last post. Merde, this oold computer will not permit me to edit anything. Aargh. I meant to say migrants, not infer that Oz is locking up it's children. Eeewwww! Pleeeez don't feed me to the sharks. Mea culpa.



Our sharks are being very well fed at the moment thanks, a worrying number of close encounters happening. Oh and Australia does lock up children. Not just refugees but Aboriginal kids as well......but that's a whole other story.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Mitchezz, thank you for enlightening me.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

I have been writing to politicians about the poor treatment of asylum seekers for at least 15 years. I am always polite and I exhort them to be more humane, especially to the children. I passionately believe that no-one has the right to steal childhood from anyone, whether it is by sexually abusing them or by locking them up behind razor wire. IMO both are crimes that cannot be excused.

When Amanda Vanstone released the children, albeit to home detention in the community, I wrote to her to thank her for her actions. When I was moved into a new electorate I wrote to my MP (who was newly elected to parliament at the time) on this subject but I was whistling in the wind and I now just send off the occasional email. 

I don't involve myself in Indonesia's or Syria's domestic affairs. I have a pretty poor opinion of the Syrian regime and I remember what the Indonesians did to the East Timorese but what good would it do for me to write to anyone in power in a foreign regime? I am Australian and the Australian government acts in my name, only what they are doing to asylum seekers if anathema to me and I will say so loud and clear to anyone who will listen.

I note that some European countries and Canada are looking at us and thinking that they should follow suit. That is why I'm becoming vocal on this forum. Don't do it unless you want to lose your nation's heart and soul.

I realise that some people think that I am fixated on the subject of guns. Not entirely true. I am fixated on the welfare of children and on anything or anyone who hurts them with callous disregard. I also care about what happens to vulnerable people like refugees. But for the grace of God I could be one too.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Warri, I recently read that the father of the Syrian toddler recently pictured lying dead on the beach blames Canadian obstructive red tape in the delay re his emigration to Canada. He holds our gov't responsible for the death of his family. On behalf of my country, I am beyond ashamed. I pray that when Canada votes on Oct. 19, we end the repressive stranglehold that the conservatives under the iron evangelical grip of Harper have held over my country for over a decade.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

There have been a number of versions of the events leading up to that drowning, all of which blame the father. One says that he was seeking a dentist and new teeth. Against that we hear that the Syrian regime held him captive and pulled out his teeth. Of course he would like to get his mouth fixed so that he could eat properly but the primary  motivation would have been to get his family as far from the Assad regime as possible.  Another says that he himself was the people smuggler. The counter story is that the boat was in trouble as soon as it left Turkey and the smuggler jumped overboard and swam away. The father says that he tried to steer the boat but it capsized.

I don't know the true story here and I don't trust early newspaper reports. What I do know is that if I was in Syria, stuck between Assad and ISIS I would want to flee and take my family with me. I'd get out any way I could and I'd keep going until I found safety and a future for the family. 

I grew up with a girl whose parents fled Ukraine to escape the Russians. They went west to Germany and were in Berlin at the end of the war, under the bombing. Her brother died of dysentery and the parents and my friend eventually ended up in Australia. They would have preferred Canada but had little choice about it. 

They were split up and sent to migrants camps - the father to one and the mother and daughter to another until he was assigned  work washing railway carriages and then they were reunited as a family. What happens today to asylum seekers who arrive by boat is ten times worse than this because there is no hope that things will ever get better.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

I hear you Warri. But the man has a sister in Vancouver BC, and his sponsorship guaranteed. Odd.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

Yes Shali, I know that that family, who had been in Turkey for some time, could have been saved under family reunion, but that it was denied. That's when people get desperate and get on unsafe boats.


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 8, 2015)

Pookie said:


> Here in the US, I made the mistake of wearing a t-shirt with the American flag on it on cinco de Mayo. I went grocery shopping, and the manager of the store told me to leave.



I didn't know that there are any Mexicans in NC, we were just in Garner in April for a wedding, and went for lunch at a "Mexican" restaurant.  Being from California we all craved some good Mexican food.  Food was just O.K., I suspect the owners were from some other Latin country, maybe Guatemala or El Salvador.

I don't know why your grocery store manager made a big deal out of Cinco de Mayo, it's just observed to commemorate the Mexican army's  victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862.



> In the United States, Cinco de Mayo is sometimes mistaken to be Mexico's Independence Day—the most important national holiday in Mexico—which is celebrated on September 16



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo

A lot of Americans use Cinco de Mayo as an excuse to go out drinking, much like St. Patrick's Day.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 9, 2015)

Susie said:


> Just love the above; very helpful, boozercruiser!!! :cheers1:



Thank you for that Susie.
I had thought about posting this to anyone here who is being 'orrible to me...










But of course I am not at all like that, so I send my 'opponants' this instead !


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 9, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> I have been writing to politicians about the poor treatment of asylum seekers for at least 15 years. I am always polite and I exhort them to be more humane, especially to the children. I passionately believe that no-one has the right to steal childhood from anyone, whether it is by sexually abusing them or by locking them up behind razor wire. IMO both are crimes that cannot be excused.
> 
> When Amanda Vanstone released the children, albeit to home detention in the community, I wrote to her to thank her for her actions. When I was moved into a new electorate I wrote to my MP (who was newly elected to parliament at the time) on this subject but I was whistling in the wind and I now just send off the occasional email.
> 
> ...


_Warrigal
I do of course realise that you are a very caring and lovely human being, and if there were more people like you on this planet, then the world would be a far better place.
And NO.
I am not patronising you.

BUT, do you know that the UK already contributes more than 13 BILLION  pounds in overseas aid?
In fact we have just contributed another billion just to upkeep the camps out there for refugees.
And that we have just commited ourselves to taking in 20,000 of those refugees from those camps?

The above figure does not include the hundreds of thousands who are still coming in through other methods.

I repeat, MASS immigration is damaging the very fabrick of our society, and must be stopped.
NOW!


_


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2015)

Fine Boozer but how are you going to do that without persecuting people?
The end does not justify the means that Australia has been employing.


----------



## boozercruiser (Oct 9, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Fine Boozer but how are you going to do that without persecuting people?
> The end does not justify the means that Australia has been employing.



I really do not know Warrigal, and it is beyond my brain exactly how the situation regarding regugees 
(as opposed to economic migrants) 
gets sorted. All I do know is this...
From whatever direction one is coming from, polititions are making a right old mess of it! 

As they do!


----------

