# Cenegenics: Scam or Legitimate?



## SifuPhil

*Cenegenics.com*

If you watch any television at all, chances are good that you've seen a Cenegenics commercial in the last few months. They've been on a massive advertising campaign to get new members into their program, and after checking out their site, downloading their brochure and doing some fact-checking I just wondered if anyone else had checked them out.

Basically they are an "aging management" business (not an "anti-aging" one, as has sometimes been claimed). Their goal is to provide concierge service to members through extensive medical testing, nutritional and exercise prescriptions and, most controversially, the administration of steroidal / hormonal compounds.

Their theory is that as we age we may make rudimentary attempts at maintaining health, but until now we've only gone about it in a slip-shod manner. They offer to take over the reigns and guide you through a regimen that they claim has proven successful in re-vitalizing their senior members.

This is only a "scratching-the-surface" attempt at explaining what they're all about, so if you're interested visit their website, download their brochure (PDF format) and decide for yourself. 

One thing that is NOT mentioned anywhere is the price. My research turned up a few numbers: approx. $4,000 for the initial rounds of testing (for which you have to visit one of their centers for 2 or 3 days), followed by monthly maintenance costs (prescriptions, testing, etc.) of around $1,000-$1,500. It's not cheap, certainly, and it might explain why so many of their members are doctors, but what price health?


----------



## Elzee

Good grief. My grandpa's attitude towards life was: Chin up and carry on. Why do we need to be looked after all the time? Why can't we be left alone? We are going to die anyways. So, a little peace and quiet along the way is my preference. My suggestion is that they go and look after people who really need it - such as the poor in third world countries. But, ooops, I almost forgot, those folks don't have any money to pay this company for their services. So, this company is just looking for a market. That is all it is.


----------



## SeaBreeze

I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send!  How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it.  What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally. 

 I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind.  I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental:  Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.

$4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things.  I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for!  You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:


----------



## SifuPhil

Elzee said:


> Good grief. My grandpa's attitude towards life was: Chin up and carry on. Why do we need to be looked after all the time? Why can't we be left alone? We are going to die anyways. So, a little peace and quiet along the way is my preference. My suggestion is that they go and look after people who really need it - such as the poor in third world countries. But, ooops, I almost forgot, those folks don't have any money to pay this company for their services. So, this company is just looking for a market. That is all it is.



Well, it IS a service business, so I suppose they DO have the right to expect people to pay for that service. They aren't a non-profit charity group, so I don't really see that they have to go to a third-world country where the chief problem is not decreasing testosterone but increasing political upheaval. 

I agree with the "looking after" part - we seem to have largely become a society that needs cradle-to-grave nannying. 



SeaBreeze said:


> I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send!  How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it.  What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally.
> 
> I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind.  I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental:  Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.
> 
> $4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things.  I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for!  You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:





TWHRider said:


> What Seabreeze saidlayful:



Ladies, excuse me while I go and change into some dry clothes - it seems Sea's dripping sarcasm has soaked me.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

*Ignorance is Bliss...and foolish*

Ladies and gentlemen,

I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening.  Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do.  When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.  Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for  a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.  I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's,  my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.  So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test).  So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up.  I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .  So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management.  Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...


----------



## Going Down Swinging

People in third world countries could care less about how they look and feel, they just want to survive. that why they die at such young ages.  So, are we all to assume that you dedicated your talents, life and education to people in third world countries all your life. It must be difficult to give up making a good living here in the US and having just the simpelist of luxeries like air/heat , plenty of food, medical help and decent clothing and a roof over your head. I am impressed, you would give all that up. Thats a rare quality to do something so selfless and then wonder why others dont do the same. So, did you work with the Peace Corp, a religious based organization or did you just make your own life in a third would country by helping others that needed it? I can't imaging foregoing working for years and years to do selfish things like buy a decent home, provide for my children in a country like the US when others have so little , and of course making enough  to retire one day. Yea, your way is so admirable and selfless.


----------



## rkunsaw

I agree with Elzee, SeaBreeze, and TWHrider.


----------



## Pricklypear

Well, I guess you told us a thing or two, Going Down Swinging.  You are 45.  I've got kids your age.  I was in great shape at 45 too.  

I'm glad you and your father-in-law look and feel great.  But, before I sign up for Bio-Identical hormone Replacement therapy, I want to see the science behind it.  Anecdotal evidence from someone I've never met doesn't work for me.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

fkunsaw, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Congratulations on agreeing with ignorance. So using Elzee's logic "We are going to die anyway", what is the point of doing anything? why do to any doctor? Why try to eat healthy? Why exercise?  Seriously?  Ok, I realize there are those that just want to sit on the sofa, sit a bowl of popcorn on your gut like a table and watch you TV shows until you die. Hey, if thats your thing God speed. My and an increasing number of people realize we can be more healthy, we can feel younger, look younger. We can have a better quality of life and be more active.  Your mentality just confuses me. Its likeyou are all just giving up on life and just dont care. I want more from life. I refuse to just wither away before my time.   Its just hard for me to imagine people want that. I want to be able to play ball with my grandsons. Spend days in Disny world with the family without being "The old guy that everyone waits on" and the guy that gets tired and has to go to the room and nap...no, thats not me.  For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that.   I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that, so I dont relate to your comment at all. You all sound sad and depressed. I wish you all luck.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Pricklypear --- Good...at least you have the mindset that you need to look into it. An open mind, a dose of scepticism and the intelligence to do a little research are all noble qualities. I was skeptical at first too. I looked into it, read about it and then ask two Doctor friends of mine about it. They were both already doing it and told me more science behind it that I could comprehend. Im a Finance guy not a science guy. They convinced me to go talk to her, see what its all about and I am so glad I did. Just keep an open mind..  Thats all Im saying. Ive had great results...look into and decide for yourself if its for you. If not, then at least you were open minded enough to do your due diligence.


----------



## SifuPhil

Going Down Swinging said:


> ...  For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that.   I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that ...



From a psychological viewpoint, I would think that anyone that feels so strongly and goes to such great lengths to disavow the natural process of aging - a process, by the way, that is going to get us ALL, sooner or later - is going to be hit all the harder when their time comes, much harder than someone who has led a "natural" life.

Because, let's face it - replacing hormones that you lose due to aging is NOT natural. Looked at from a certain perspective, you are cheating the house ... and the house ALWAYS wins.

I can understand a certain zest for life, a willingness to go the extra mile when it comes to healthy lifestyle. Diet and nutrition, supplements and vitamins, exercise, avoiding excesses of all kinds, regular medical check - ups - that's great, that's what anyone who wants to remain in peak physical health should do.

But by spitting in the face of natural aging one plays a dangerous game. The way I see it, Cenegenics has one ace in the hole, and that is their hormone replacement therapy. All the other stuff - the nutritional guidance, the exercise, the testing - you could accomplish on your own. But it's admittedly difficult to get your hands on what is normally illegal substances such as HGH for the purposes of "anti-aging", and their ability to slow the aging process is highly questionable.

One needs to consider these pros and cons when evaluating testosterone therapy:

Potential benefits	

    * Improve muscle mass and strength
    * Increase bone mineral density
    * Thicken body hair and skin
    * Improve ****** desire
    * Boost energy
    * Decrease irritability and depression
    * Improve cognitive function


Potential risks

    * Cause skin reactions
    * Cause fluid retention
    * Cause baldness
    * Cause or aggravate sleep apnea
    * Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate and cause or   worsen urinary symptoms
    * Stimulate growth of prostate cancer that's already present
    * Enlarge breasts
    * Stimulate growth of breast cancer that's already present
    * Cause testicle shrinkage
    * Limit sperm production
    * Stimulate excess blood production
    * Cause acne

Again, mainly from a philosophical point of view but acknowledging all the potential physical drawbacks, trying to ignore natural aging by partaking in a regimen that is questionable at best and not fully understood is something we do at our own risk.


----------



## rkunsaw

Going Down Swinging said:


> fkunsaw, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Congratulations on agreeing with ignorance. So using Elzee's logic "We are going to die anyway", what is the point of doing anything? why do to any doctor? Why try to eat healthy? Why exercise?  Seriously?  Ok, I realize there are those that just want to sit on the sofa, sit a bowl of popcorn on your gut like a table and watch you TV shows until you die. Hey, if thats your thing God speed. My and an increasing number of people realize we can be more healthy, we can feel younger, look younger. We can have a better quality of life and be more active.  Your mentality just confuses me. Its likeyou are all just giving up on life and just dont care. I want more from life. I refuse to just wither away before my time.   Its just hard for me to imagine people want that. I want to be able to play ball with my grandsons. Spend days in Disny world with the family without being "The old guy that everyone waits on" and the guy that gets tired and has to go to the room and nap...no, thats not me.  For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that.   I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that, so I dont relate to your comment at all. You all sound sad and depressed. I wish you all luck.



You are so completely wrong I don't know where to start.I'm 71 and probably healthier than you are. Most of us have enough sense to take care of ourselves. We've lived through countless ads for some "scientific breakthrough" or another. and were smart enough to keep our money in our pockets.
If you are 45 now did you know the odds are against you ever becoming as old as I am now? Think about it,  You may not grow old gracefully. You may not even grow old. 

So fork over your hard earned money if you want but stop trying to convince me to.


----------



## SeaBreeze

@=Going Down Swinging;7286
I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is.

_I'm amused by your extreme passion for this program.  You should consider becoming a spokesperson for them, perhaps you can receive some discounted treatments.  Respectfully, it is ignorant on *your *part to assume that others are either lacking in knowledge of hormone therapy, uneducated or close-minded. 
_
They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening.  Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do.  When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.

_Anyone of us who care to do it, can get a "Full Health Picture", on our own, without being held by the hand and led through a expensive pre-planned system.  Hormone, thyroid, cardiovascular, vitamin levels, etc. can be tested by a doctor or a naturopath.  Nutritional, supplemental and exercise recommendations are also very commonly advised as treatments and preventatives._

Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for  a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.

_Eating a healthy whole foods diet, supplementing and exercising makes many people look and feel younger.  For $12 per month, I have access to a local fitness gym which offers cardio, weights and other ways to burn fat and build muscle.  It's wiser not to resort to hormones or steroids._

I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25.

_There are more natural ways to build your testosterone, and exercise is one of them http://www.energytimes.com/pages/departments/1102/suppsavvy1102.html.  Ways much safer than testosterone or human growth hormone therapy.  Taking hormones or steroids may lead to rises in LDL cholesterol, high blood pressure, elevated liver enzymes, liver or kidney disease, etc.  HGH can accelerate the growth of cancerous cells or tumors that already may in your body...ones not yet dectected with testing.
_
Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's,  my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.

_I'm surprised that you are in such poor shape at the age of forty five, we're in our sixties and haven't had issues with ****** appetite, etc.  My skin looks healthy and naturally aged.  My muscles are strong, and we all have ab muscles.
_

By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .

_Lol, well, I hope your wife is half as 'happy' as you are.  You're quite pleased with yourself, good for you!
_

So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. 

_You're precious!   I can guarantee that I would not want to look like you at the beach.

_
I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management.  Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...

_Hope you and your doctor share many more hugs in the future, I'm sure she looks forward to them from all her appreciative patients.  :dollar:  The thing that bothers me about your posts, is how angry you sound.  You may want to have the doc review your hormone dose, sometimes they, especially testosterone, can amplify rage or depression.  I wish you well, and hope you go down swinging, but hopefully not at the end of a rope.  Years ago, a young co-worker of mine was in his twenties, handsome, well educated, popular with everyone ended up committing suicide after using testosterone and steroids when he started to pursue bodybuilding...what a loss, sad day for all. 

 A word to the wise...it's okay if people disagree with you, that doesn't make you any less of a person.  It's emotionally healthy to keep an open mind to other opinions too.  I wish you a long and healthy future regardless of your age, and BTW, welcome to the forum! _


----------



## Lily

I am also of the persuasion that I want to live fully to the end; so much so that I am now finishing a masters degree in clinical counseling at the age of 61. I intend to have a full practice so am invested in continuing to care for my health. My clinical specialty is the incarcerated and severely mentally ill so this second career is about significance and not financial gain (the first career was raising 5 children; one with a mental health disability). I have been thinking for awhile that I need some type of hormonal rebalancing but had never heard of anything like that. I have come to understand disease as an emergent property of less than optimal conditions. The use of growth hormone would only be needed in extreme cases but fine tuning the delicate and intricate interactive symphony of the endocrine system I believe is entirely appropriate. Cenegenics sounds like they are on the right track but are out of reach for my financial resources. I'm wondering if there are any reliable alternatives or if Cenegenics would be willing to offer only the hormone analysis portion?


----------



## SifuPhil

Hi Lily, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your work toward the counseling degree!

Unfortunately Cenegenics does NOT offer the hormone analysis as a separate modality; they require everyone to be in the total program. The thing is, I believe that a person could implement all of the other parts of the program (because basically what they're offering is concierge medicine, the personalization of the conventional medical paradigm) by hiring a life coach, nutritionist, personal trainer and such, at a greatly discounted rate. 

That would leave the medical aspect, and there you could "hire" a proficient GP, one who believes in and practices a more holistic mode of medicine, as a sort of overseer of the entire medical phase of your program. You would rely upon them to put you in touch with the testing labs, specialists, etc. needed to mimic the Cenegenics program. The toughest part would be having access to the hormones (actually, the toughest part would probably be getting your insurance to cover this program, but that's another thread) but even there topical prescriptions are quite common these days so it shouldn't be an insurmountable problem - you would just need the right doctor to write the 'scrip. 

I suspect that all of this could be done for less than half the advertised price of the "start-up" phase (the initial intake-testing) and also maintained at a similar discount. In fact, I've been playing around with the idea of writing a book something along the lines of "The Poor Person's Guide to Age Management", wherein these "discounted" methods would be researched and laid out for the reader.

One other thought: Cenegenics, like many other age-management programs, seems to be focused mainly on men and their fear of decreasing testosterone levels. I suspect they're playing to those fears instead of to a more balanced model of aging. The simple fact that good nutrition and exercise does wonders for probably 75% of the cases is buried under the "wonder drug" approach. I might be wrong in this - as I said, it's just my opinion - but the evidence seems to point in that direction.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Yes, the house always wins in the end but why lay down and be old before you have to? I know that eventually I will die. Thank God the people in my family generally are healty and live long lives. No, restoring your hormone levels are not natural. Neither is any type of medication or surgery. Its not natural to take something to lower your blood pressure either. The arguement that , this process is wrong because it is just not how its been done inthe past is just not a very good arguement to make. Every day new advances are made in medicine. The average life expectancy has gone up significantly over the past 40 years because of all these "non natural" advances. I understand what your saying and you seem like a very intelligent person.  You have to realize that the way things are done today does not mean there is not a better way tomorrow. Thats all Im trying to say, I just want people to have an open mind.  

Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test. So sure, you can go to your doctor and get your normal test , you can diet and exercise but thats only about 5 to 10 % of what BHRT is about. 

I did like your pros and cons. Well done , its nice to see you have done some reading. I will go through your cons.

1. anything can cause skin reactions. Even changing clothes detergent. If you have reactions you stop. 
2. If youeat too much sodium you get fluid retention. I know so many people on fluid pills that dont take anything that causes it. A lot of Blood pressure medication has a fluid pill built in. this is not a big deal. 
3. Baldness? lol..old age causes baldness as well. Its like this, male pattern baldness is going to happen to you if baldness genetically runs in your family. Testosterone doesnt cause it, it speeds up the process. I'm a little thin in that back, I can deal with it. It is called "age management" its not for the young and anyone over 40 is target to lose some hair. 
4. I dont have apnea. Have you ever read the side effects of most percription drugs> the list is long and scary. This is grasping at straws trying to make a point. Sure , it may cause many things. If you get bad side effects....stop. 
5. My doctor tested for cancer, prostate enzymes, liver enzymes, liver function, renal function and so many other things. If I had anything she wouldnt have started therapy. Anyone can get bad stuff. Go to your doctor once per year and get that checked. I do.  Do you live your life avoiding everything that the internet says causes cancer?  hundreds of day to day things are said to cause cancer. You cant live scared. Cooking hamburgers or any meat on a grill is said to cause cancer..im not going to throw away my grill anytime soon. 
6. Enlarge breast. I assume your talking about gynecomastia in men?  A rise in your estrogen levels caused by a lack of testosterone cause this. Not testosterone. Higher testosterone will not increase breast size in me.
7. Get your check ups and do all your testing before you start. If you have any form of cancer, you do not need to be on BHRT. 
8. Testicle shrinkage - sure when you take testosterone as a man with normal test levels , say to bulk up muscles. It causes your testicles to stop production because your getting it from an external source. So the testicles will shrink some. Some...not a huge amount. however, if you have low test, obviously your body isnt working well and your testicles have already shrunk. If your percribed test you needed test and your testicles have already shrunk.. so if you dont need it, dont take it. Again, a good arguement for not doing it yourself. 
9. Limit Sperm production. -- Do you really think any man that is doing "age Management" is concerned with sperm production? I got a vasectomy years ago. I could care less about sperm and most men over 50 could care less as well. BUT, if you are concerned. there is a drug you can take that counter acts the testical shrinkage and restores sperm production. Its that easy. 
10. I get my blood tested twice a year. I'm a little iron deficient so it hasent increased my production. However, if this happens you just go get phlebotomized. Your doctor should keep up with his and adjust things to keeep this from happening. 
11. Acne -- again, its on the list of possible side effects. I challenge everyone to look at the possible side effects of any birth control drug and let me know how a little acne compares. I have gotten a little. Its bump on my shoulder, a bump on my back ever so often. No like you will go full teenager. If you have a reaction, talk to your doctor. 

I agree with the do at your own risk statement. Just like anything in life there are potential rick. Driving a car for instance. Eating a lot of red meat, alcohol consumption. However, if your doctor is monitoring your levels , he/she will see if there is something going on and can make adjustments or stop .  I do not recommend anyone take any type of hormones unless they are under the care of a doctor.


----------



## Lily

Thank you Sir! Someone else on the forum has given me a push in the right direction and I've identified a local practitioner to investigate for the hormone assessment piece. Cenegenics does market to the higher income bracket but in all fairness people in those brackets need concierge service with the responsibilities they typically have and are simply being asked to pay for it. I was very sick in my 20's and told I would be disabled the rest of my life. I thought,"I'm not even 30; I don't think so." That began a quest that lead me to revamping my lifestyle with improved nutrition, exercise, and supplementation. It was a slow but steady 7 year climb to health and no disability. I'll even attach a picture if I can figure it out to show what I've accomplished. Not bad for a 61 year old lady! But now it is time for the hormonal piece. I intend to get a full return on my investment in graduate school.


----------



## SifuPhil

All well-said, GDS - I think we're closing in on the middle-ground here. Let me take a few of your points individually ...



Going Down Swinging said:


> Yes, the house always wins in the end but why lay down and be old before you have to? I know that eventually I will die. Thank God the people in my family generally are healty and live long lives. No, restoring your hormone levels are not natural. Neither is any type of medication or surgery. Its not natural to take something to lower your blood pressure either. The arguement that , this process is wrong because it is just not how its been done inthe past is just not a very good arguement to make. Every day new advances are made in medicine. The average life expectancy has gone up significantly over the past 40 years because of all these "non natural" advances. I understand what your saying and you seem like a very intelligent person.  You have to realize that the way things are done today does not mean there is not a better way tomorrow. Thats all Im trying to say, I just want people to have an open mind.



I don't advocate just giving up - I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Certainly we should Go Down Swinging. 

Open mind is good, I agree. When I said it wasn't "natural" I meant that, looking at the big picture, it seems we're supposed to have a certain average number of years on the planet. Anything that alters that could be seen as being "un-natural", no matter how GOOD it appears to be. There have been many discussions over the years on quality of life, and that's just one of my concerns - that we might live to 125 but our minds are shot to hell. I don't see that Cenegenics addresses that concern except in the most roundabout way (physical fitness=improved brain power). Now if they came up with a new "smart cocktail" and added it into the mix maybe that would change my opinion ...



> Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test. So sure, you can go to your doctor and get your normal test , you can diet and exercise but thats only about 5 to 10 % of what BHRT is about.



But wouldn't that depend upon your doctor? I mean, sure, the majority of doctors aren't going to be interested in hearing your age-management ideas - they're too busy meeting their malpractice insurance payments. They want a revolving-door medical office. 

But I'm convinced that there ARE a handful of doctors that would be willing to get onboard with such a program. You just have to spend the time and effort to find them. Even if it comes down to an under-the-table deal, hey, it would be worth it to slip them a little extra - a "retainer", if you will - to have them push your case. Part of the problem with modern medicine is the insurance industry: they've severely tied the hands of doctors and forced them into practicing a mode of medicine that isn't really to their liking. They probably got into the field because they wanted to help people, not do paperwork. So relying upon insurance to help you with age-management medicine is a losing game - I think a large chunk of change is going to have to come from our OWN pockets. 



> I did like your pros and cons. Well done , its nice to see you have done some reading. I will go through your cons.



Thanks!



> 1. anything can cause skin reactions. Even changing clothes detergent. If you have reactions you stop.
> 2. If youeat too much sodium you get fluid retention. I know so many people on fluid pills that dont take anything that causes it. A lot of Blood pressure medication has a fluid pill built in. this is not a big deal.
> 3. Baldness? lol..old age causes baldness as well. Its like this, male pattern baldness is going to happen to you if baldness genetically runs in your family. Testosterone doesnt cause it, it speeds up the process. I'm a little thin in that back, I can deal with it. It is called "age management" its not for the young and anyone over 40 is target to lose some hair.
> 4. I dont have apnea. Have you ever read the side effects of most percription drugs> the list is long and scary. This is grasping at straws trying to make a point. Sure , it may cause many things. If you get bad side effects....stop.
> 5. My doctor tested for cancer, prostate enzymes, liver enzymes, liver function, renal function and so many other things. If I had anything she wouldnt have started therapy. Anyone can get bad stuff. Go to your doctor once per year and get that checked. I do.  Do you live your life avoiding everything that the internet says causes cancer?  hundreds of day to day things are said to cause cancer. You cant live scared. Cooking hamburgers or any meat on a grill is said to cause cancer..im not going to throw away my grill anytime soon.
> 6. Enlarge breast. I assume your talking about gynecomastia in men?  A rise in your estrogen levels caused by a lack of testosterone cause this. Not testosterone. Higher testosterone will not increase breast size in me.
> 7. Get your check ups and do all your testing before you start. If you have any form of cancer, you do not need to be on BHRT.
> 8. Testicle shrinkage - sure when you take testosterone as a man with normal test levels , say to bulk up muscles. It causes your testicles to stop production because your getting it from an external source. So the testicles will shrink some. Some...not a huge amount. however, if you have low test, obviously your body isnt working well and your testicles have already shrunk. If your percribed test you needed test and your testicles have already shrunk.. so if you dont need it, dont take it. Again, a good arguement for not doing it yourself.
> 9. Limit Sperm production. -- Do you really think any man that is doing "age Management" is concerned with sperm production? I got a vasectomy years ago. I could care less about sperm and most men over 50 could care less as well. BUT, if you are concerned. there is a drug you can take that counter acts the testical shrinkage and restores sperm production. Its that easy.
> 10. I get my blood tested twice a year. I'm a little iron deficient so it hasent increased my production. However, if this happens you just go get phlebotomized. Your doctor should keep up with his and adjust things to keeep this from happening.
> 11. Acne -- again, its on the list of possible side effects. I challenge everyone to look at the possible side effects of any birth control drug and let me know how a little acne compares. I have gotten a little. Its bump on my shoulder, a bump on my back ever so often. No like you will go full teenager. If you have a reaction, talk to your doctor.



Wow - well-done! 

I admit that I included a lot of the boilerplate disclaimers in my list, so yeah a bit of common sense would tell us to stop taking any med that causes adverse reactions. But unlike stopping taking an aspirin a day, stopping hormone therapy has many complications. I _think_ Cenegenics claims it uses bioidentical hormones, which is a _good_ thing, but even with those stopping hormone treatment cold-turkey is dangerous. The body has developed a reliance upon these new hormones, and cutting off the supply is going to put great stressors on the body. You just have to be ready for these effects and know how to deal with them.

One thing I have to disagree with, and it's a minor point, is about gynecomastia. I've been in a lot of gyms, both as customer and trainer/manager, and the heart-break (!) of what they call "bitch tits" is just all too real for the boys that are on the juice. 



> I agree with the do at your own risk statement. Just like anything in life there are potential rick. Driving a car for instance. Eating a lot of red meat, alcohol consumption. However, if your doctor is monitoring your levels , he/she will see if there is something going on and can make adjustments or stop .  I do not recommend anyone take any type of hormones unless they are under the care of a doctor.



Certainly a doctor's expertise and access to specialists is needed for monitoring your hormone treatment. All I'm saying is that Cenegenics has made a package deal out of what is really just bits and pieces of an age-management program. They're a "one-stop-shopping solution" for all your old-age needs! 

But just like our computers, there is more than one way to get the complete package: the majority of people haven't the knowledge to do anything but to buy off-the-shelf. This may please most of them, but it's never a really custom-made fit. A small percentage of people will order their individual components online and build that sucker themselves. It will perform exactly as they planned and if something goes wrong they know how to fix it, unlike the poor BestBuy customers that are in bondage to the store's less-than-expert "experts".

It's the same with Cenegenics. For those who can afford it, it might be a good deal because everything you need is in one place. They offer ease of access and remove the work of finding individual practitioners as well as the problem of getting the hormones. But someone who has the drive to be in COMPLETE control of their life would be much happier "doing it themselves" - picking up the best individual components they can find, putting them together, and staying in charge of their own bodies instead of paying some stranger to take that same level of interest in you.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

SeaBreeze said:


> @=Going Down Swinging;7286
> I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is.
> 
> _I'm amused by your extreme passion for this program. You should consider becoming a spokesperson for them, perhaps you can receive some discounted treatments. Respectfully, it is ignorant on *your *part to assume that others are either lacking in knowledge of hormone therapy, uneducated or close-minded.
> 
> _I'm so glad I can amuse you..lol Yes, I do have passion for it. I am amazed at how I feel and look. I am more amazed at how my father in law at 65 looks and acts. So, yes, I have seen results personally and so I believe in it. I don't say EVERYONE is Ignorant but it is easy to pick out the ignorance and the closed mindedness in what people say, how they say it. Your obviously very intelligent and have done some reading on the subject. A lot probably because of your irritation at my aggressiveness, amusing passion and the buttons that I push and thats my intent. I'm sure your very aware that this is a fairly new specialty and most people are ignorant of this  and thats completely different from calling them stupid.
> 
> They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening. Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do. When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.
> 
> _Anyone of us who care to do it, can get a "Full Health Picture", on our own, without being held by the hand and led through a expensive pre-planned system. Hormone, thyroid, cardiovascular, vitamin levels, etc. can be tested by a doctor or a naturopath. Nutritional, supplemental and exercise recommendations are also very commonly advised as treatments and preventatives.
> 
> __Unless your willing to pay for a lot of testing thats "not ordinary testing" and you find a GP that knows enough about this sort of thig to even know what to test for it would be quit impossible to do this yourself. I agree that anyone can eat properly and exercise on your own. Its the science part, knowing what to test for , what the levels are supposed to be and how to get things right thats the most important part in all of this. If you do know of a GP that can do this, GREAT. If your well read enough to know nutrition, even better. So , sure you can piece together your health, nutritional, naturopath & expert on suppliments, if you can find all these people and will take the time to organize it all yourself. Nothing wrong with that. I just prefer to have one person do it for me.  I am not pushing the "boxed approach" or "systems" , its the end result thats important, not the path there. So do it yourself with multiple experts or one specialist.
> 
> _Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.
> 
> _Eating a healthy whole foods diet, supplementing and exercising makes many people look and feel younger. For $12 per month, I have access to a local fitness gym which offers cardio, weights and other ways to burn fat and build muscle. It's wiser not to resort to hormones or steroids.
> 
> I played college football so I know how to work out but hired a certified personal trainer and I learned so much. I am intelligent to knwo I'm not an expert in everything and can get better results asking help from one.  I agre with the steriods comment. They are illegal and you shouldnt take them. Low testosterone is a medical condition that can be treated just like you would if you had high blood pressure. So saying it best to not take something that helps with a medical conditional is irresponsible. Sure you may fully know what your talking about but for other reading these post, they may see that and take it to heart. if you have low T , go get it taken care of.  _
> 
> 
> 
> I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25.
> 
> _There are more natural ways to build your testosterone, and exercise is one of them http://www.energytimes.com/pages/departments/1102/suppsavvy1102.html. Ways much safer than testosterone or human growth hormone therapy. Taking hormones or steroids may lead to rises in LDL cholesterol, high blood pressure, elevated liver enzymes, liver or kidney disease, etc. HGH can accelerate the growth of cancerous cells or tumors that already may in your body...ones not yet dectected with testing.
> 
> __Sure if your slightly below the level where you need to be, there are natural ways to help elevate your test levels. if your level is significantly low, there is an issue and eating the right things and exercise will not correct your problem. If you have significantly high blood pressure , eating less sodium will not make it all better. If you have a medical condition, get medical tretment. If you physican doesnt know to watch and regularly test for all the possible side effects then you need a new doctor.
> _
> Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's, my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.
> 
> _I'm surprised that you are in such poor shape at the age of forty five, we're in our sixties and haven't had issues with ****** appetite, etc. My skin looks healthy and naturally aged. My muscles are strong, and we all have ab muscles.
> 
> __LOL...like you at 45 had the performance , muscle mass, tone, strength, speed and agility that I currently have. Unless you were a college , professional or olympic athlete, your just being ridiculous. Poor shape? I'm 6 ft tall,  have 8% body fat (yes 8%) and weigh 215 lbs. I can out sprint my 19 year old son that is currently playing college football and am stronger than he is. This drives him nuts. He is much smaller than I, he is a safety and I was a line backer. But I am in unbelievable shape so you to say that im in poor shape at 45 is laughable.  Sure we all have ab muscles, but mine isnt covered with a layer of fat. I have a visible six pack, we dont all have that. My test was really low and that will destroy ****** appetite. I think its great you havent had issues with that. I hope you never do.  Strong muscles are a relative term. Strong compared to who? what? a normally aging 60 year old that is fairly active? or a college football player of 19? how about as compared to any 20 to 40 year old athlete that works out with weights 4 times per week in your city?_
> 
> By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .
> 
> _Lol, well, I hope your wife is half as 'happy' as you are. You're quite pleased with yourself, good for you!
> 
> My wife seems very happy. She is a criminal defense lawyer that has quit to go back to school to get her nurse practitioners degree and may possibly go to medical school to specialize in ....Age management. She is thrilled with her results and loves how I look.  Yes, I am very pleased with myself. I have worked very hard on my diet and in the gym to acheive my results. But thanks for being concerned for her happiness. So is  person not supposed to like themselves, not be happy with their successes in life?
> _
> 
> So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do.
> 
> _You're precious!  I can guarantee that I would not want to look like you at the beach.
> 
> __Precious? LMAO..wow thanks! thats the most sarcastic compliment I have ever receved. It really seems like your a negative person that is a bit jealous of the happiness and success of others to the point you seem a bit bitter. Yea, I can see why you wouldnt want to look like me. I mean seriously, what man would like women flirting with him constantly, telling him how great his body looks, the smiles, the.."flirty sayings like, Oh don't put your shirt back on, your the reason we come to the pool" Yea, i can understand your point. Why would any man want that? I KNOW you wouldnt like hearing from your college age children that their college female friends think your "hot". And when you go to a school function with your younger kids, the moms all sit around you. Yea, that would be terrible wouldnt it. Also, who wants to look in the mirror and just get a great sense of satisfaction and how far you have come and how hard you have worked. I was fat at one point, weighed 280 pounds. I keep old pictures to keep me on track. So I'm glad you dont want to look like me, not like too many do or could anyway. Its just funny to me that you have no idea what I look like but you make such rude , bitter, sarchastic comments like that__.
> 
> _
> I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management. Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...
> 
> _Hope you and your doctor share many more hugs in the future, I'm sure she looks forward to them from all her appreciative patients. :dollar: The thing that bothers me about your posts, is how angry you sound. You may want to have the doc review your hormone dose, sometimes they, especially testosterone, can amplify rage or depression. I wish you well, and hope you go down swinging, but hopefully not at the end of a rope. Years ago, a young co-worker of mine was in his twenties, handsome, well educated, popular with everyone ended up committing suicide after using testosterone and steroids when he started to pursue bodybuilding...what a loss, sad day for all.
> 
> A word to the wise...it's okay if people disagree with you, that doesn't make you any less of a person. It's emotionally healthy to keep an open mind to other opinions too. I wish you a long and healthy future regardless of your age, and BTW, welcome to the forum! _



Again there you go throwing stones. You dish out sarchasm and negativity and yet talk about me and my issues? I can have a decent conversation but when someone like yourself goes out of their way to be a jerk then yea, I can get a bit preterbed. What bothers me about you is your sense of superiority, and how natural being a jerk seems to come to you. Your a bit of a bully that hides behind the sarcasm. Your very passive aggressive and that is a sign of deeper emotional issues. Thanks for your concern but my doctor checks my levels and they are in a great range, thanks for the suggestion. I love life, love my wife and kids and would never be so cowardly or selfish as to harm myself. Ive never even considered it but thansk for your concern. It really bothers you that there are happy people that like themselves doesnt it? IS your like so bad that this is a foreign concept? I love how you used the guy that is body building to tell the suicide story. Yea, you have to watch those guys in great shape, they tend to kill themselves. 

I love a good debate as much as the next person. I just dont like your passive aggressive, sarcastic negativity. I dont like the fact that you constantly throw stones and then twist it to say that its all me that dont like differing opinions. You need to do some self reflection. You have a difficult time accepting or even considering the opinions of others that conflicts with yours. Even if that opinion is fact based on personal experience. I just told my story, my results, my experiences and you could not stand that it not only differs from your "growing old gracefull" mentailty but that I am really happy with myself and my results. That seems to really bother you. So maybe its not me that is not accepting of the opinions of others. Oh my God I know it seems so highly unlikely but it might just be you. 

I also truly wish you great health, long life and happiness for you and your family. I never wish bad things on people even if they are arrogant.  Thanks for the welcome, I feel it has been baptism by fire...lol but still interesting and fun..


----------



## SeaBreeze

Going Down Swinging said:


> Also, you can not do this on your own. My Doctor, which is a young doctor, does not test as thoroughly. Most do not simply because of insurance coverage. Insurance will not cover most of the test so thats all out of pocket. Your physician will not recommend test for which he/she will not be paid to read. Medicare willnot cover it so most doctors dont see the point. A lot of doctors dont even have the specialized knowledge base to request for or read the test.



Unless the Cenegenics program is covered under your medical insurance, that would mean you have to pay the full charges for their vitamin/hormone testing anyway.  A cheaper option would be to go to a Naturopath or Holistic doctor for the necessary tests, and perhaps even get treated with a more natural alternative to these hormones and steroids. ositive:


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Iam really enjoying our jousting by the way.  I amy seem angry but at the end of the day, I would gladly sit down with you and buy you a beer..please take that into consideration on my last post.lol I love a good fight...and I dont hold a grudge.  

With THAT disclaimer said... Bitch tits are an issue. I have done research and consulted medical professionals (my doctor and an internist) and a few body builders (my brother in law is a professional body builder) becaue my son started taking this suppliment , a "pro-hormone" to gain muscle mass and strength.  A lot of these pro-hormones are so incredibly close to the molecular structure of anabolic steriods that there may only be a molecule placement difference. This tiny differenc emeasn the difference between legal and illegal. HE started getting bitch tits and I immediately told him to stop what ever he was taking (thats when he showed me what he was doing) and took him to the doctor. These products, just like steriods uses up your testosterone like water. they deplete it and the nature of these drugs including anabolics creates an abundance of estrogen in your system. Thsi over abundanc eof estrogen caused from the steriods and depletion of testosterone is what causes the breast enlargement. Its possible the guys you ask just knew if you took stuff you get bitch tits and didnt knwo the actual science behind it. its really interesting stuff. The doctor wanted to do surgery on him. The professional body builders sold me a drug that reduces/eliminates estrogen from your system. He took it and over a period of two months it was gone. 

So i think we agree on most things here...I will restate I am not an advocate for using "Cenegenics" . I went to a specialist that does the same thing and spent a LOT less. Ceneginics is the Mercedes when  a Nissan will do the same thing just a lot more cost effectivly.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Going Down Swinging said:


> Again there you go throwing stones. You dish out sarchasm and negativity and yet talk about me and my issues? I can have a decent conversation but when someone like yourself goes out of their way to be a jerk then yea, I can get a bit preterbed. What bothers me about you is your sense of superiority, and how natural being a jerk seems to come to you. Your a bit of a bully that hides behind the sarcasm. Your very passive aggressive and that is a sign of deeper emotional issues.
> 
> I love how you used the guy that is body building to tell the suicide story. Yea, you have to watch those guys in great shape, they tend to kill themselves. You have a difficult time accepting or even considering the opinions of others that conflicts with yours. Even if that opinion is fact based on personal experience. I just told my story, my results, my experiences and you could not stand that it not only differs from your "growing old gracefull" mentailty but that I am really happy with myself and my results. That seems to really bother you. So maybe its not me that is not accepting of the opinions of others. Oh my God I know it seems so highly unlikely but it might just be you.



I'm not the one who started posting on this forum by insinuating that a member(s) here were ignorant, uneducated and close-minded.  I posted my opinion, sarcastic or not, it was my opinion that this program is a scam.  You are the one who angrily reacted, because you disagreed...as opposed to just having a decent conversation about why you thought otherwise.  Now you're name-calling (jerk), something I've never seen on this forum.

I have nothing against people being in shape, or bodybuilding.  That was the only suicide case that I knew of personally, and had no secret reason for sharing it, other than noting the possible side effects of these drugs.

I'm very happy, positive and easy going and wish the best for others.  You don't have to like me, nor I you.   Life's too short to argue, count me out.  I'm glad that you're happy and doing well.  Let's just agree to disagree and continue to have a good day.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Fair enough. I will apologize for the "jerk" comment. I generally do not resort to name calling. I went back and red my post and it was out of line. It wont happen again.

I stand my assessement that there is a lot of ignorance when it comes to age management. My patience wears thin with those that just throw out negative comments because they dont know anything about it and just dismiss something they know nothing about as a scam. Same goes for people that just accept thier fate as growing old, withering and dying well before their time. Vitality can last into the 90s. A 60 year old is the equivalent of a 45 year old 50 years ago. I just know so many people coule have a much better quality of life if they opened their mind. So , yea, I saw some comments that were made in ignorance so I called it what it is. Does that mean I think you or anyone here is dumb? no, not at all. Does it mean I think you or any one here is ignorant of all or even many things, no, I commented on the comments at hand. 

I dont know you so I will not say that I dislike you personally because I dont.  You didnt like things I said, I didnt like things you said and we called each other on it. I went a bit far and I admit that and correct my actions going forward.  I also stick to what I said earlier. I did enjoy our debate. Its nice to debate someone that does a damned good job at intelligently and logically defends their positions. 

You also have a great day.


----------



## SifuPhil

... so ...

... what do you guys think about the Shake Weight?


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Just say no... I giggle like a 12 year old when I see it on TV. I can't actually imagine seeing someone use it..it would be too much.


----------



## SifuPhil

Going Down Swinging said:


> Just say no... I giggle like a 12 year old when I see it on TV. I can't actually imagine seeing someone use it..it would be too much.



It might be a little too potent for this site, but I'll take a flyer and post this video ...

Jimmy Kimmell did what in my opinion is a brilliant parody of the workout-gizmo genre with his Tug Toner commercial -

*Not Safe For Work or Certain Retirement Homes

*


----------



## R. Zimm

It is really nothing new, a company specializing in longevity products and as time progresses we (or who ever is around) will see ever more scientifically based products/systems in this area. The other thing is that there will usually be two types of these companies, the "legitimate" (ie: regulated) and the "snake oil" and it's harder to tell them apart.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Except it is not a product or system or dvds, or tapes, or cds or a book. Its Bio Identical Hormone Replacement therapy and Age Management techniques managed by a physician. Sure Cenegenics seems to be a packaged product but its a service, not a product. Even the supplements can be purchased anywhere you choose and any brand. 

The prescription drugs can be purchased at any compounding pharmacy. So this is not a pre packaged thing, its a way of life. Its managed and administered by a board certified physician M.D. or D.O. and the supplements are already on the market (normal stuff) and the prescription drugs are produced by pharmaceutical labs and not something mixed in the office. I'm not sure what further regulation could be put in place since it is already regulated by the DEA. 

Just to be clear, Age Management or BHRT is not a pill you buy or an elixer sold promising to extend your life. Please do more research. I do however agree with you on your last point. Make sure you go to a Physician that you can check their credentials and hospital privilidges. Do not go to someone touting Age Management that does not have a M.D. or D.O after their name.


----------



## SifuPhil

Going Down Swinging said:


> Except it is not a product or system or dvds, or tapes, or cds or a book. Its Bio Identical Hormone Replacement therapy and Age Management techniques managed by a physician. Sure Cenegenics seems to be a packaged product but its a service, not a product. Even the supplements can be purchased anywhere you choose and any brand. ...



If you look closely at the Cenegenics logo you'll see the little 








It IS a product. They just give you a song and a dance and a massively-expensive brochure to make you overlook that.


----------



## Going Down Swinging

Yes, the word "Cenegenics" is a registered trademark and it does have the trademark symbol.  Cenegenics is a system or process. Its blood test, its Doctors looking at results determining the plan of action, perscribing the right doses of hormones , suppliments, vitamins, recomending diets, exercise programs and then monitoring the changes and results, making changes and adjustments as needed. All this is individually customized for each customer. So calling that a "product" is a bit of a stretch. However, I can see how you can argue that point...we can call it semantics. I do agree that their services are overpriced. 




SifuPhil said:


> If you look closely at the Cenegenics logo you'll see the little
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It IS a product. They just give you a song and a dance and a massively-expensive brochure to make you overlook that.


----------



## Lily

If I may weigh in on one point here concerning the overpricing. Cenegenics has the institute that trains doctors in their method of practice and their customer base provides a stable, steady source of research subjects. These subjects are committed to the regimen with the intellectual and financial resources to do so which is a researchers dream. Eventually, we all benefit from the results and the wealthiest among us pay for it. Seems like a win to me.


----------



## SifuPhil

Lily said:


> If I may weigh in on one point here concerning the overpricing. Cenegenics has the institute that trains doctors in their method of practice and their customer base provides a stable, steady source of research subjects. These subjects are committed to the regimen with the intellectual and financial resources to do so which is a researchers dream. Eventually, we all benefit from the results and the wealthiest among us pay for it. Seems like a win to me.



Forgive my obtuseness, but you're saying that their clients are _also_ their research subjects? 

Isn't that a bit unethical? 

Dr. Life now has his own home-delivery meal program - Life30. For only $387.50 (+ $23.99 Fedex S&H) you can have 3 meats and 3 veggies a day delivered to your door and be assured that you're eating healthy, and ... oh, wait ... sorry, it isn't HIS program; he's just re-labeled the *Personal Trainer Food program* ($350/mn + $26.99 S&H).  

You can order a 90-day supply of TA-65 (a telomerase activation compound) from his site for $2,100. In looking around the 'Net I found dozens of sites *such as this one* that price roughly the same, so at least he's in the right range there. But you don't begin to see the effects of TA-65, if any, until _at least_ 6 months of usage, so that's $4,200 you pay up-front on faith.

I don't have that much faith, and I know that I can achieve just about the same results with exercise and diet.

Dr. Life also offers an in-person Executive Health Evaluation at his Las Vegas office for only $5,995. If you would be willing to settle for another Cenegenics physician you pay only $4,495.  I wonder what that $1,500 difference gets you? Prestige? 

Jack LaLanne was an example of what can be done without the use of hormone replacement therapy. If he could do it, so can almost anyone else. I still believe that Cenegenics may have age-management as its mission statement but ultimately I think they're all for the bottom line of their P/L statement.


----------



## Lily

Sorry,

I did paint that stroke very broadly. Research subjects are always invited to participate and appropriately informed. Researchers, though, need to be able to find large numbers of qualified subjects and rely on institutional sources to find them. Cenegenics is associated with two large universities and also has their institute whose network of trained doctors can easily refer individuals. 

An amusing example from my past will illustrate the point. With 5 children and (I apologize) a stingy and secretive husband, it is never about you so I had to be innovative about making ends meet while raising them. I shopped at second hand stores for my clothing and often saw harried yuppie husbands carrying in mountains of designer this and that in an effort to stay ahead of the shopping curve. I would think, "Thank you, thank you sweetheart! Don't forget to send her back to the mall this week and I'll see you again in 6 months!" I am the Queen of Creative Resourcing. I agree that eating well and exercise is the majority effort.

Back to Cenegenics, I have a local referral for someone trained at the institute who is supposedly reasonable. I am just at the beginning of investigating this area and most likely won't get to a visit until after my state licensing exam. I may end up coming to your conclusions. Thanks for monitoring this dialog. It is helpful (and fun)!


----------



## SifuPhil

Lily said:


> Sorry,
> 
> I did paint that stroke very broadly. Research subjects are always invited to participate and appropriately informed. Researchers, though, need to be able to find large numbers of qualified subjects and rely on institutional sources to find them. Cenegenics is associated with two large universities and also has their institute whose network of trained doctors can easily refer individuals.
> 
> An amusing example from my past will illustrate the point. With 5 children and (I apologize) a stingy and secretive husband, it is never about you so I had to be innovative about making ends meet while raising them. I shopped at second hand stores for my clothing and often saw harried yuppie husbands carrying in mountains of designer this and that in an effort to stay ahead of the shopping curve. I would think, "Thank you, thank you sweetheart! Don't forget to send her back to the mall this week and I'll see you again in 6 months!" I am the Queen of Creative Resourcing. I agree that eating well and exercise is the majority effort.
> 
> Back to Cenegenics, I have a local referral for someone trained at the institute who is supposedly reasonable. I am just at the beginning of investigating this area and most likely won't get to a visit until after my state licensing exam. I may end up coming to your conclusions. Thanks for monitoring this dialog. It is helpful (and fun)!



I have to admit that I'm a skeptic at heart - worse, a cynic. Please realize that that colors my opinions on most things. 

I'm afraid I'm not very impressed that they have an "institute"; I was the founder and owner of the *Chinese Health Institute*, a name that conjured up a massive Chinese castle populated with dozens of wise old doctors, but in reality there was a total of one employee - me. Cenegenics appears to operate on a somewhat higher level, but still I think it's really just Dr. Life (what a fortuitous name!) in a nice office occasionally calling up a few colleagues that he has "certified" (what is in a certification anyway? That's a story for another thread, I think).

I could certainly be wrong; some part of me deep inside that is still decent and trusting and pure wants to believe in this program. But until someone like yourself with the proper training can steal into the "institute" under cover of night and lift the sheets on the operating tables in the sub-basement laboratory and report back here with all the gruesome details, I'm afraid I shall remain my skeptical, critical self. 

I DO wish you luck with your studies and your future work!


----------



## Lily

Part of my training is in research methods and statistics. We have to be able to look at studies and determine if in fact their data supports the results they claim. So I know the language and what constitutes a well designed hypothesis. Cenegenics central has already emailed me and seems to be using solid evidenced based methods so far. They have been upfront about pricing which of course I don't intend to pay but I'll mosey along with them for as long as I can to pick their brains. Cenegenics aside, I think age management medicine is a shift toward preventative, health-focused standards of care. We certainly can't sustain our current allopathic-based practices. I'll keep you updated with my findings and perspective development.


----------



## Bigwheat

*My 68 yr old uncle*



SifuPhil said:


> Well, it IS a service business, so I suppose they DO have the right to expect people to pay for that service. They aren't a non-profit charity group, so I don't really see that they have to go to a third-world country where the chief problem is not decreasing testosterone but increasing political upheaval.
> 
> I agree with the "looking after" part - we seem to have largely become a society that needs cradle-to-grave nannying.
> 
> Ladies, excuse me while I go and change into some dry clothes - it seems Sea's dripping sarcasm has soaked me.



Hey, for what its worth, my 68 yr old uncle, who used to be Mr. Louisiana back in the day, does HRT and this dude squats 700 lbs, his chest looks like a road map, very vascular, great muscle definition and just looks great in general. Now , I dont know anything about this company but I have seen HRT work wonders for the people around me. I realize the concept that if you take from the house, the house always wins. But he is 68 and doesn't look anywhere near death.  Just sayin.....


----------



## SifuPhil

Bigwheat said:


> Hey, for what its worth, my 68 yr old uncle, who used to be Mr. Louisiana back in the day, does HRT and this dude squats 700 lbs, his chest looks like a road map, very vascular, great muscle definition and just looks great in general. Now , I dont know anything about this company but I have seen HRT work wonders for the people around me. I realize the concept that if you take from the house, the house always wins. But he is 68 and doesn't look anywhere near death.  Just sayin.....



I congratulate your uncle - that shows a lot of dedication. I'm just concerned that we might be judging him by externals alone - hopefully he keeps up with regular exams and is assured that he's as awesome on the _inside_ as he is on the _outside_. Does he truly only do _replacement_ therapy? I suspect that as a hard-core bodybuilder he might be going well beyond the bounds of just replacement and getting into _augmentation_. As well, he might be one of those genetically-gifted types who doesn't have an adverse reaction to HRT.


----------



## rickd785

Does it help with bowel movement ?  I need a bowel movement.


----------



## Anne

Oh geez, SifuPhil, I'm cracking up here at the video you posted!!     I DO have a shakeweight, and don't see that it's done a lot of good so far, but haven't used it as much as I intended to, either.  We'll see......

As far as Cenegenics, does anyone know if that's what Suzanne Somers advocates??  She's into Bioidentical Hormones, and apparently has noticed a lot of health benefits from them...and she certainly looks good for her age.  

Of course, she exercises regularly and has what she feels is a healthy diet, also.


----------



## SifuPhil

Somers follows a self-prescribed regimen of compounded hormones (not legally regulated) and a slew of pills - 60 a day at last count. Her knowledge is gained solely from attending alternative medicine "conferences" and, as her appearance on "Oprah" several years ago proves, she has no idea of the danger she's putting her followers into. 

The estrogen cream she rubs into her arms has been shown to increase the incidence of breast cancer (Somers herself was diagnosed with it shortly after she began her self-treatment) and the vaginally-injected Estriol has been shown to be essentially useless after a certain age, an age which Somers has certainly left far behind.

Somers looks to be what she is - an attractive 60-something who takes good care of herself. She certainly doesn't look like a 30-year-old. She is probably just the recipient of good genes; her exercise regimen and healthy eating habits probably have far more to do with her health and looks than all the pills, potions and lotions she imbibes.

Her "Way" is, I believe, quite different than that employed by Cenegenics.


----------



## Anne

60 pills a day; wow!!!  Thought I had a lot with the dozen or so I take daily.


----------



## SifuPhil

Anne said:


> 60 pills a day; wow!!!  Thought I had a lot with the dozen or so I take daily.



And I'm sure those were prescribed by a legitimate doctor for legitimate medical conditions (or at least I hope so). Although I haven't researched it I wouldn't be surprised if Ms. Somers' pill regimen is solely self-prescribed, just like her hormone treatments. 

With HER money she could hire someone to follow her around with a slingshot, shooting pills into her mouth at random intervals during the day.

"What do YOU do for a living?"


"I'm a pill-shooter for a celeb!"


----------



## Anne

Well, no...the only thing my last dr told me it to take a good multi-vitamin.   When I asked for an example, he said, "oh, any major brand - One a Day is a good one."  
 Really???   I take some for certain conditions, and some we read about in Life Extension.   Just hoping we've chosen correctly....Ideally, I'd love to have the Naturopath I saw as my regular Dr., but his prices are pretty high, and insurance doesn't cover them .   Of course not..they might get us healthy, and we can't have that.


----------



## SifuPhil

Anne said:


> Well, no...the only thing my last dr told me it to take a good multi-vitamin.   When I asked for an example, he said, "oh, any major brand - One a Day is a good one."
> Really???



Yeah, I'm sure there are a few that are better than One-a-Day ... 



> I take some for certain conditions, and some we read about in Life Extension.   Just hoping we've chosen correctly....Ideally, I'd love to have the Naturopath I saw as my regular Dr., but his prices are pretty high, and insurance doesn't cover them .   Of course not..they might get us healthy, and we can't have that.



Oh, we couldn't allow THAT! You'd mess up the entire Western medicine paradigm - the Hi$$ocratic Oath!


----------



## Anne

Hi$$ocratic Oath - I love it!!!!    I guess I might be known as a 'difficult patient';  I did like our last dr in some ways, but he sure liked to think his pills were the answer to whatever.   Tried to give me scrips for sleeping, depression, pain, all in one visit.   I didn't take any.   I realize they can help in certain circumstances, but to me, are temporary fixes.   
The real way back to health is the longer, harder way, imo.  I admit I do have a problem with discipline, as far as keeping up with exercise, etc.


----------



## That Guy

I find it troubling that in a country with a pill-popping problem that has lasted decades and getting worse we have a medical profession that continues to push drugs.


----------



## athomson9

Sounds like an over-complicated creation of a product that promises to solve a problem that is unsolvable. Whats next, a 12-step program to grant immortality?


----------



## SifuPhil

athomson9 said:


> Sounds like an over-complicated creation of a product that promises to solve a problem that is unsolvable. Whats next, a 12-step program to grant immortality?



Now THAT I would pay for! 

1. Be born in Scotland 400 years ago.
2. Die in battle
3. Come back to life
4. 

... WAIT a minute ...


----------



## Davidp

Going Down Swinging said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening. Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do. When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be. Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle. I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's, my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely. So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test). So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up. I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy . So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management. Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...



I too am 45. How at the age of 45 you are even considering this is beyond me. I bench a clean 500 (1 rep), I run a 4.95 40 yard dash. I squat 600 (1rep), 3 miles in 20:43. These are things I didn't need managed. I work my butt off all week. I raise 7....yes SEVEN children (oldest 21-youngest 6), work 45-50 hours GRAVEYARD SHIFT. Low T or not you are getting scammed if you think you need this, or they are doing something you cannot do on your own. Dont believe me? PM me or better yet stop by my place if you are ever in Atlanta. I am not a professional athlete, never have been. I am just a regular guy who makes at least an hour available each day for intense execise and good diet. This isn't meant to be an affront to you, and at some point in time I believe that the added HGH and steroid programs can add to the quality of life, but at 45 these are all things your body is still way beyond capable of doing on their own provided you supply the elbow grease.
As for looks, I look great, beastly even - total package. None of that is even the slightest of reasons why I train like I do. I mentioned I have 7 children. I want to be relevant in their life active enough to enjoy them and one day my grandchildren, sure I look great but I dont care about that. I stay abreast of current culture and trends, technology and yes...even algebra, trig, physics, lit, and history. I am young because I live young and I will do so until GOD says its time to move on. If vanity is the only reason you do this then you should reevaluate and maybe see a different type of doc to help with esteem issues.
I wish you the best but before you start accusing memebers in any online forum of making uneducated statements you need to do some self reflection and ask yourself if you are educating or offending your readers or if you are educating your readers or providing some type of self justification for your own actions.


----------



## That Guy

What he said.


----------



## SifuPhil

Nicely said, David. 

Not to detract at all from your Spartan routine, but there's also genetics to consider in any age-management program - something Going Down Swinging did not address at all. 

I see it as a bit like gambling: you can increase your odds of winning with proper nutrition, exercise and mental outlook, but the "house" or your genetic make-up is always going to have the edge. Even such body-building luminaries as Schwarzenegger have admitted that genetics are the key to success in that field. You can't trick Mother Nature - you can only give the _illusion_ that you are, and I think that's the card that Cenegenics is playing so heavily.

Testosterone supplementation is a huge issue (pun intended) in bodybuilding and now, seemingly, in age management. The problem is that there are hardly any qualified studies done on supplementation, so anyone who swears by it is doing so solely through faith, not hard proof. You also have to consider the long-term effects of supplementation - shrunken testicles, gynecomastia, rage, etc.


----------



## SifuPhil

You all suck said:


> ...  You all sound like creatins to me.



I'm just speaking for myself, of course, but I'm pretty sure that we're not ALL amino acids found in the muscle tissue of vertebrates.

Learn to walk before you run and learn to spell before you rant - you'll be a lot more creditable. As it is, right now you're about as significant as a fart in a tornado.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Diwundrin

Hey Phil, freak's okay but you must be wounded by 'lame'. 



Just realized what's been missing on this forum, frothers!  I'll have to get around more.  They're entertaining as hell.


----------



## SifuPhil

Diwundrin said:


> Hey Phil, freak's okay but you must be wounded by 'lame'.
> 
> 
> 
> Just realized what's been missing on this forum, frothers!  I'll have to get around more.  They're entertaining as hell.



Oh, it said "lame"? 

I thought it said "lamb" - I took it as a compliment.

Just another case of better living through chemistry, I suppose. What's scary is that people like that are allowed to walk the streets with all that pent-up anger - usually you can find them on top of a clock tower or in a depository window.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Our own fine example, and Poster Boy for hormone rage.  Where does the line start for the 'therapy'... we need more men walking around in stupor about to snap. 


:trolls:

Update:  Looks like the troll has starved to death, and they took out the trash. :clap:


----------



## That Guy

SeaBreeze said:


> Our own fine example, and Poster Boy for hormone rage.  Where does the line start for the 'therapy'... we need more men walking around in stupor about to snap.
> 
> 
> :trolls:
> 
> Update:  Looks like the troll has starved to death, and they took out the trash. :clap:



Not soon enough for my liking.  But, good riddance, anyway.  Such hate-filled people full of their own poison must suffer greatly and need to share . . .   Best to ignore.


----------



## SeaBreeze

That Guy said:


> Not soon enough for my liking.  But, good riddance, anyway.  Such hate-filled people full of their own poison must suffer greatly and need to share . . .   Best to ignore.



:iagree:


----------



## Diwundrin

Ahem, is anyone else blown away by the number of 'views' of this thread?!  87,000  ??!!!  WTF?

Did it get linked to some Website or something??


----------



## Jillaroo

_What The!!! i just saw that who is so interested or is it a misprint, i'll give them something to look at _


----------



## That Guy

Well done, Jillaroo.  Some people just like to look...    Maybe it's the NSA.


----------



## Anne

But, I wondered about this too:  

 Currently Active UsersThere are currently 209 users online. 12 members and 197 guests

Really???


----------



## That Guy

It's a big wild world web out there, Anne.  Crowded, too.


----------



## SifuPhil

YAY! More page-views=better ratings=mo' money!

Hey, let's start a thread about killing Santa Claus! AND the Easter Bunny! 

Walt Disney was a Commie! Mandatory euthanasia for anyone over 50! 

...

...

Bambi's mother deserved to get shot and Old Yeller was a mutt! 


KA-CHING!


----------



## Pappy

Bambi's mother got shot? This was the first movie my mom took me to. How sad. I probably cried. However, Thumper and Petunia brightened things up.


----------



## SeaBreeze

SifuPhil did start a good thread that was view by many, I don't doubt the numbers at all. There was some conflict there also, which attracts many lookie-lous.   As far as the users online, there are many visitors who are browsing the forum at any given time, so those numbers are likely accurate also.


----------



## That Guy

Pappy said:


> Bambi's mother got shot? This was the first movie my mom took me to. How sad. I probably cried. However, Thumper and Petunia brightened things up.



Old Yeller was a tough one, too.  Heck when my son watched Benji he cried.


----------



## SifuPhil

Pappy said:


> Bambi's mother got shot? This was the first movie my mom took me to. How sad. I probably cried. However, Thumper and Petunia brightened things up.



I don't really want to be the one to break the news to you, but Thumper and Petunia ended up as hasenpfeffer in Disney's back-lot cook-out ... 



SeaBreeze said:


> SifuPhil did start a good thread that was view by many, I don't doubt the numbers at all. There was some conflict there also, which attracts many lookie-lous.   As far as the users online, there are many visitors who are browsing the forum at any given time, so those numbers are likely accurate also.



Thank you.

I'm just trying to follow William Randolph Hurst's famous order: "You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war."

Controversy sells. Big. 



That Guy said:


> Old Yeller was a tough one, too.  Heck when my son watched Benji he cried.



I must the only person on this board who never actually _saw_ the Old Yeller movie ...


----------



## Anne

Guess I"m used to private forums, where you can't get in to read unless you sign up; so the viewers are a lot less.   Anyway, I still get teary over Bambi or Old Yeller.

*   Phil*:  Bambi was very possiblly one of those anti-hunting, animal rights movies where we realized that animals have families, too; and you don't just shoot them for food for your family.   You know how Disney was, after all........   

            You never saw Old Yeller???  That was a good one!!


----------



## GDAD

We have had this out here in Australia... Didn't last long...I think people found that If they had a decent doctor, who sent you to the pathologist for a complete Blood screening every six months to a year.
Matain a good Diet....exercise you were on the right track. Our health system out here allows us to have blood tests & it is payed under the medicare scheme.
My collesteral is low & all other signs are O/K...at 73 that's all one could wish for.
As for going o a High protein diet...sounds like the old atkins diet & didn't he pass on in his sixties from cancer?
My step Mum was genetically blessed lived to 94...favourite food was pavlovas, cream cakes, ice cream, vegetables.

Remember Ladies & Gentlemen....we only get one go down here, so live & make the best of it!

Just an old mans view!


----------



## Pedestrian

I had hoped to get some objective analysis on the subject here and as usual as most blogs...am seriously disappointed. It's as if we are pre-Renaissance where there is no science...only God. So let me get this straight, if I feel bad or sick somehow, I am to be 'bleeded' and I will feel better ? If my blood pressure is down then I should just get more bed rest ? If my say liver or thyroid is not performing up to snuff, I am to just die gracefully without taking any supplements or adjusting my diet ? 

How is it that the caveman almost never saw the age of 30 ? How is it the cotton picking slave almost never saw 40 ? How is it in other words that all we need do is eat well and play golf and we all live to almost 80 ? No, it is science people. So if I was to pay either my doctor or their doctor and find I have certain deficiencies, any follow-up therapy is just a money grab ? 

You could cut the arrogance and cynicism here...with a knife. Yes, is isn't cheap we are after all...living in America, history's ultimate for-profit society. What else is new ? You think there will be a CURE or cancer ? Never much to profitable in treating the dying and die you will. Or am I to drink nothing but bottled water, 40% of which is tap water, being intrastate thus escaping FDA scrutiny and is as likely to have styrene, benzine and toluene in it ? We are here in America are to more than anything or any society...make some f...king money.

Get a grip people. Science is always evolving and as we grow older we are not cheating nature in trying to grow older...better and in greater health. How about that vegan in studied health just ran his 10th and last marathon at what...100 ? No, I will not be plunking down the $1000's needed for Cenegenics but I will not ignore the changes in my body as a result of aging just because 'it's nature.' I plan on continuing to have great sex even at 63 as of tomorrow and look as good as I can, be as active as I can and will likely go from a stroke or heart attack...because I am so active. Oh what a wonderful world.


----------



## SifuPhil

If you want objective analysis go to Consumer Reports.

And just as a by-the-way this is a forum, not a blog, so you're going to encounter a LOT of subjective opinions. 

Could you please loan me a knife? I want to share my arrogance and cynicism with the entire class ...


----------



## Pedestrian

I think the 'forum' has enough to go around. Class ? With class there exists objective study material. Most, not all but most of what I read here has none. 

I went to Google and searched for Cenegenics review. That means those that have actually experienced something for which they have written a review. One does not write a review on a restaurant without going there and eating their food. I think this 'forum' has one person maybe two as I have not gone back and counted...containing a review of Cenegenics having actually sampled the menu. The rest is conversation and are not reviews at all. I guess I need to blame Google hey ?


----------



## Diwundrin

I think the biggest problem Cenegenics faces is sorting out it's paid, marketing spin-doctor forum moles from it's overenthusiastic, literacy impaired, overly aggressive and narcissistic fans.  The former aren't all that good at it, and the latter are chasing their customers away.

Just a free and unsolicited tip for you there Cenegenics.


----------



## Casper

_*After reading through this whole thread......

What Di said....:dito:*_


----------



## SifuPhil

Pedestrian said:


> I think the 'forum' has enough to go around. Class ? With class there exists objective study material. Most, not all but most of what I read here has none.



No - it's just teeming with life-experienced folks who aren't all that subject to being swayed by the Great God Medicine, Her Wonders To Perform. 



> I went to Google and searched for Cenegenics review. That means those that have actually experienced something for which they have written a review. One does not write a review on a restaurant without going there and eating their food. I think this 'forum' has one person maybe two as I have not gone back and counted...containing a review of Cenegenics having actually sampled the menu. The rest is conversation and are not reviews at all. I guess I need to blame Google hey ?



I think the blame ought to be at least shared by Google, along with your rigid expectations of what the term "review" truly entails. 

Google's rating system is a joke, at least as far as their stated purpose of providing rankings based upon authoritative content and popularity. Like most other systems (Cenegenics included) it is subject to manipulation. How many book reviews are written on Amazon by people who haven't even read the book, but are simply hired at Fiverr to "write a review"? How many unctuous, oily movie, play and restaurant critics are actually partaking of that which they review? Not as many as you believe. 

It's the Internet - not everything is as it seems or as we expect. If we are to be held to some rigid conversational standard here from which we aren't allowed to deviate then this would be an empty URL. 

I think most of all that you're holding the definition of "review" a bit too tightly. Loosen up - you'll live longer than if you were to start taking weekly injections of hormones. And for Buddha's sake at least introduce yourself before you start tearing us a new one, okay? We might not be as worldly as you would like, but at least we observe 'Netiquette.

ETA: I'm the Original Poster and if you look at my OP you won't find the term "review" anywhere within it. More proof of Google's fallibility.


----------



## JustBonee

SifuPhil said:


> - you'll live longer than if you were to start taking weekly injections of hormones. .




To the 'believers' of Cenegenics  ... come back in 10 years and let us hear how it's going .... 


This only makes me think of what women were told for years, back in the 50-70's, about hormone therapy ...."It's for better health as you age" ... blah, blah, blah ...    My mother got breast cancer, and later died,  from the hormone therapy her doctor insisted that she needed. 




> Hormone replacement therapy — medications containing female hormones to replace the ones the body no longer makes after menopause — used to be a standard treatment for women with hot flashes and other menopause symptoms. Hormone therapy (as it's now called) was also thought to have the long-term benefits of preventing heart disease and possibly dementia.
> Use of hormone therapy changed abruptly when a large clinical trial found that the treatment actually posed more health risks than benefits for one type of hormone therapy, particularly when given to older postmenopausal women. As the concern about health hazards attributed to hormone therapy grew, doctors became less likely to prescribe it.


 .. Mayo Clinic


----------



## Diwundrin

Nailed it Bonnie, I came close to losing an Aunt and Cousin, both told that it was a  imbalance probably due to hormone replacement that was the trigger for their particular kind of breast cancer.  
They were the only women in the family over the several generations I could trace who had contracted breast cancer, and were the only 2 who had used HRT.
The Aunt warned me not to take them but she was way too late, I'd already been through the menopause and no one had even noticed, so why was I prescribed them? ....  the HRT tablets were all still in the drawer with the rest of the stuff I never took over the years.   
I don't believe in fixing what ain't broke.


----------



## JustBonee

Diwundrin said:


> Nailed it Bonnie, I came close to losing an Aunt and Cousin, both told that it was a  imbalance probably due to hormone replacement that was the trigger for their particular kind of breast cancer.
> They were the only women in the family over the several generations I could trace who had contracted breast cancer, and were the only 2 who had used HRT.
> The Aunt warned me not to take them but she was way too late, I'd already been through the menopause and no one had even noticed, so why was I prescribed them? ....  the HRT tablets were all still in the drawer with the rest of the stuff I never took over the years.
> *I don't believe in fixing what ain't broke*.



I'll second that... women have definitely gotten wise to the HRT,  and the heartache involved.  

Wondering though, don't any of these guys watch sports?... their heros, and the numerous tragic stories of bigger, better, faster ... and dying years before they should.


----------



## SifuPhil

Boo's Mom said:


> Wondering though, don't any of these guys watch sports?... their heros, and the numerous tragic stories of bigger, better, faster ... and dying years before they should.



To be fair, those "athletes" are using mega-doses of steroids, and on a very frequent basis. That's why they have such problems. If the comments from Newly Old are accurate then it would seem that Cenegenics (or at least his personal doctor) give only the amount that is needed to bring the levels up to some perceived "norm", and not so much that the patient becomes a raging 'roid monster. 

I used to admire Arnold Schwarzenegger in my teens - I read his autobiography and liked that he would NEVER use steroids. It was only later, after I had learned more about how the world of competitive bodybuiding works, did I start to suspect something was amiss, and his later confessions were the final straw. 

In my own field, martial arts, it was never even an issue until the advent of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) competitions. Now it isn't unusual to encounter guys on the juice, and it kills the entire philosophy of the sport.


----------



## That Guy




----------



## Katybug

Going Down Swinging said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening.  Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do.  When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.  Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for  a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.  I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's,  my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.  So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test).  So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up.  I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .  So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management.  Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...



Here comes some more sarcasm....but, seriously, were you paid to write this?  If not, you should be. But for the pushy nature of your post, it sounds exactly like a professional advertisement.  You're more than welcome to your opinion, but I'm just wondering why someone 45 is even on this board.  You're hardly a senior.  

Good for you in looking so good...I adore humble people.  However wonderful this service may be, you went a little overboard in the boasting, so I'm going to take my uneducated self to another post.  Have a good evening, Sir.


----------



## Katybug

Boo's Mom said:


> To the 'believers' of Cenegenics  ... come back in 10 years and let us hear how it's going ....
> 
> 
> This only makes me think of what women were told for years, back in the 50-70's, about hormone therapy ...."It's for better health as you age" ... blah, blah, blah ...    My mother got breast cancer, and later died,  from the hormone therapy her doctor insisted that she needed.
> 
> 
> .. Mayo Clinic



As my dr handed me my first script for hormone replacement 25 yrs ago, he warned there was a connection with breast cancer.  Five years later, I'm in the OR losing a breast.  Can I prove that's what caused it?  No.  Just that a half doz doctors have told me "most likely," and to avoid any and all forms of estrogen going forward.  Without question my type cancer was estrogen fed, after a hysterectomy and ingesting replacement hormones for 5 years.  But, Gawd, I miss 'em!


----------



## Newly Old

Hi.  Let me jump in.  I am Newly Old, the 64 year old who started Cenegenics in September.  I am a physician and my Cenegenics doctor is a relative of mine whose medical expertise I trust. (Just want to be totally honest about my bias/perspective)

I can only give a short term perspective, but I think it says a lot about why I love the program.

Three months ago, before I started, I had a certain energy level, a certain physiologic capacity, strength, libido, etc.  That would be the best physical shape I was to be in the rest of my life.  With aging, I would slow down and deteriorate.

I was fine with it.  But soon after starting Cenegenics, I experienced the benefits.  At first, I had great days, then returned to baseline the last couple of days before my next weekly testosterone.  It took several weeks to reach and equilibrium where the tesoterone level in my body remains constant all week.   My blood tests showed that I went from low testosterone to mid normal range with treatment.

Now, I have much more energy, never feel sluggish during the day, have already lost inches off my waist  (I don't bother weighing myself.  The goal is not to lose weight.  It is to lose fat and gain muscle)

I have the libido I had when I was in my 20's.  That was 40 years ago!  I had forgotten what explosive sex felt like.  And I receive complements on my improved appearance every day.

It feels great.  Is there a down side?  Of course.  My hematocrit has risen so I am going to have to be a periodic blood donor.  I have to have regular bloodwork to make sure everything stays in balance.  My PSA's are carefully follwed and if they were to rise, the testosterone stops.  

At the moment, I believe that the current research shows that testosterone replacement is beneficial with little downside for those with normal hearts and prostates. But what if there are long term problems?

I feel better than I have felt in MANY years.  I felt fine 3 months ago, but not great, like I feel now.  I would trade 10 elderly years to have the next 15 years being ones where I feel like I do now.

I am going to stay out of the argument as to whether we should let our hormone levels decline and our bodies deteriorate as natural aging, or if we should bring them to normal levels like we do with somone whose thyroid has become underactive or pancreas no longer produces enough insulin.

I am choosing to have strong, energetic, lively years for as many years as I can.  Cenegenics is doing that for me.

By the way, many people eat red meat.  My son is a lifeguard and increasing his risk of a malignant melanoma.  Many people have eating habits and food preferences that make them overeat.  Some say they "like to eat."  They are all risking a shorter life.

If you could quickly feel a quantum leap better, have the libido (and function)of a person half your age, would it be worth it to you?  I tried it, and for me, the answer is absolutely.


----------



## C. M. Albrecht

By the time most of us reach that "golden age" where the biggest perk in life is that 10% senior discount we sometimes get, we think we've seen all the scams there are, but wait, there's more: While we're sitting back confidently thinking we've seen it all, new scams are arriving every day. Now with the treatment in quesiton, this is just a general rule off thumb: When any medical people with headquarters in Nevada advertise miraculous breakthroughs, you can be pretty sure it's as legit as a letter from Nigeria or that letter informing you that you just won a lottery.
When real medical breakthroughs come through, you'll see them on CNN or MSNBC, and other such places, NOT in TV ads or that copy of "The Globe" at the supermarket. 
For one product the TV announcer actually had the nerve to say, "We couldn't say it on TV if it wasn't true." Really? There is practically never a word of truth in any TV advertising. You ever notice all that fine illegible print at the bottom of the screen? While the Izuzu guy is telling you all these great things, all that fine print says: "He's lying and don't believe a word he says."
There's a great world out there dreaming up ways to talk you out of your money. They know older people are sometimes more vulnerable because they talk fast and smooth and often get your signature before you realize what youve done. BE CAREFUL!


----------



## Diwundrin

> ............  There's a great world out there dreaming up ways to talk you out of your  money. They know older people are sometimes more vulnerable because  they talk fast and smooth and often get your signature before you  realize what youve done. BE CAREFUL!


----------



## SifuPhil

stharp1 said:


> There is a program called something like MD VIP that is similar to this. Patients pay a fee (annually? monthly? both? I forgot.) for their primary doctors to take less patients so that they get more time and better care. The patients seem to love it. I have not found that they live any longer or are any healthier, but they get a lot of attention from their doctors.
> 
> I am not a fan of hormone replacement because of both cancer and blood clots.
> 
> Sharon
> http://happyhealthcare.org/



Yes, I believe that's the so-called "valet practice". I'm not sure that they offer the same kind of program that Cenegenics does - I think it's more of a "actually spend time with your patient, talk to them and do some real diagnostics" - kind of affair.

In other words, they practice the way doctors _used_ to practice.


----------



## SifuPhil

I love their testimonials ...



> As a single dad, Randy needed motivation to maintain a healthy weight.  His MDVIP-affiliated doctor provided just that to help him lose 30  pounds and counting.



... instead of Randy just giving the fast-food a pass and going to the gym, which would have been a lot cheaper ...



> Laura's story is one of  transformation and triumph. After discovering she was pre-diabetic, her  MDVIP-affiliated doctor provided the support to change her lifestyle.



... instead of Laura just giving the fast-food a pass and going to the gym, which would have been a lot cheaper ...



> An artist for 45 years, Hadyn was not going to let her fading eyesight  stop her. She found an MDVIP-affiliated doctor and a wellness program  that truly cared for her in a different way.



... instead of Hadyn going to the local mall's eyeglass franchise and picking up a pair of 'scrip glasses for $99.99 ... 




It isn't medicine - it's hand-holding. :semi-twins:


----------



## Katybug

C. M. Albrecht said:


> By the time most of us reach that "golden age" where the biggest perk in life is that 10% senior discount we sometimes get, we think we've seen all the scams there are, but wait, there's more: While we're sitting back confidently thinking we've seen it all, new scams are arriving every day. Now with the treatment in quesiton, this is just a general rule off thumb: When any medical people with headquarters in Nevada advertise miraculous breakthroughs, you can be pretty sure it's as legit as a letter from Nigeria or that letter informing you that you just won a lottery.
> When real medical breakthroughs come through, you'll see them on CNN or MSNBC, and other such places, NOT in TV ads or that copy of "The Globe" at the supermarket.
> For one product the TV announcer actually had the nerve to say, "We couldn't say it on TV if it wasn't true." Really? There is practically never a word of truth in any TV advertising. You ever notice all that fine illegible print at the bottom of the screen? While the Izuzu guy is telling you all these great things, all that fine print says: "He's lying and don't believe a word he says."
> There's a great world out there dreaming up ways to talk you out of your money. They know older people are sometimes more vulnerable because they talk fast and smooth and often get your signature before you realize what youve done. BE CAREFUL!



Very well written and excellent advice!


----------



## Newly Old

This is my first hand experience with Cenegenics.  I have been on Cenegenics for 3 months.  I am a doctor, and am happy to address the science of their approach, but I want to cut to the chase. 

I feel better than I have since my 20's or 30's.  I am 64.  I no longer have daytime fatigue.  I have the energy of my youth.  My waist size is down 3 inches. My libido is that of my youth.

That is what I was looking for and I am very happy with the results.  

Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

And to what do you attribute your success - diet, exercise or hormones? Or would you say that it's a synergistic effect of all three?


----------



## Newly Old

In order, I would say hormone optimization, diet, exercise.

Testosterone to bring levels to "normal" is not the same as people taking testosterone to build their muscles.  It definitely aids in improving percent body fat-  losing fat, gaining muscle.  Dieting alone loses fat and muscle.  The muscle strength allows me to exercise better and to feel results.  This gets me more active and I stay active and energetic all day.

Diet is also huge.  I did not realize that I was standing a bit slouched until I lost 4 inches on my waist.  I realzed that I was walking upright, and could feel the difference.  Without strict diet program (not "dieting," but strictly healthy, 5 meals to maintain steady insulin levels and prevent hunger).

These first two are the key.  Unfortunately, I think people would ge great benefits from the first two alone, and thus miss the added benefit of exercise.

Only #1 needs the consultation of a doctor.  

Newly Old


----------



## Diwundrin

So, Adonis, what do you use all this extra energy on?  Are you investing it into improving the world in general or just yourself? Do you go and do something useful with that "stay energetic all day" result or does it just mean you can spend more time working out on the abs? Or your wife?
 Does the extra oomph power and improved mirror feedback benefit anyone else or is it a purely narcissistic thing?  

Just wonderin'?


----------



## Newly Old

Dear Diwundrin-
I am a physician and my improved energy allows me to work an additional day and one evening per week at our Urgent Care Center.  This is in addition to working full time in the office.  I take care of about 30 more patients a week than I used to.  These are people who are too ill to wait for their doctors' offices to open in the morning.  

So, to answer your condescending question, I am very definitely "investing it into improving the world in general" by helping at least 30 more ill patients each week.  That translates into over 350 ill people helped since I started the program 3 months ago. And if Cenegenics allows me to work more years before slowing down, the number of additional people helped will be in the thousands.

 Plus, I have the energy after work to enjoy my activities with my kids.( And no, I am not an Adonis, do not work out or care what my body looks like to others.  My exercise consists of 30 minute brisk walks. )

I started Cenegenics because I wanted to improve my health and body functioning.  I am doing it to FEEL better, not to LOOK better.  For me, it is working well. 

Newly Old


----------



## Diwundrin

Okay, remark withdrawn, must be another poster who was touting the program because it was turning him into Batman or similar.

I'm a terminal cynic about these things especially when they are promoted by fanatics.  If I had half a brain I would just steer clear of the thread.  siiiiiigh.


----------



## Newly Old

As I started to type my rely, I see that there is an ad for Cenegenics in the space between your post and the quick reply box!  I hate their ads.

Your cynicism is very useful.  There are a huge number of "Low T" clinics and fringe practitioners.  I used to consider all of them semi-charlatans- using the name of medical care to sell "alternative" medical care that crosses the line in my opinion.  As a physician, I can recognize when claims are BS, and when the doctors on radio talk shows are being misleading at best.

I never considered any age management/ total health/ concierge/longevity programs.  That is until a year ago when a family member, who is a highly regarded specialist in his field spent time studying the age management science over several years and then training to be a Cenegenics doctor.  He convinced that they are "real."  I waited a year to see the successes, failures and dropouts of several patients.  I did my own research and decided to try it.  Part of my research was to look for people who were in the program who discussed their experience.  That got me to the Senior Forums. I found it impossible to learn anything except that their are strong opinions about Cenegenics and even the concept of treating the deterioration of aging instead of living with it.  So, when I started the program,  I initiated a thread saying that I was going to write about my experience as I was doing it "for anyone who cares."

Newly Old

I have tried to stay out of the debates as to the right or wrong of doing age management.  I have tried to give honest information about the good and the bad.  I don't know that I have seen an objective reporting from someone who actually is doing the program.  I started with the disclosure that a relative is a Cenegenics doctor, but also said I would not say where in the country I live to avoid people thinking I am trying to generate business for his location (or any location).

If I have a strong opinion, it is frustration that my internist has no interest in hormone optimization, nor do other doctors I know.  Part of it seems to be the fear of being lumped with the "doctors" who prescribe supra-normal doses of testosterone to build muscles.  So I am stuck spending a fortune on Cenegenics.  There are many doctors who advertise treatment for low testosterone, but it takes expertise to do it safely.  That takes an excellent doctor with excellent training.  Otherwise, serious problems can develop if the proper blood parameters are tested, followed and understood.


----------



## Katybug

Diwundrin said:


> Okay, remark withdrawn, must be another poster who was touting the program because it was turning him into Batman or similar.
> 
> *I'm a terminal cynic about these things especially when they are promoted by fanatics.  If I had half a brain I would just steer clear of the thread.  siiiiiigh.*


*

*IMO, Di, steering clear of this thread is the best idea I've heard all day and exactly what I intend to do!


----------



## SifuPhil

I dunno ... sometimes I learn more discussing things I don't trust or believe in than I do when everyone is in agreement.

Debate brings out the truth.


----------



## Diwundrin

SifuPhil said:


> I dunno ... sometimes I learn more discussing things I don't trust or believe in than I do when everyone is in agreement.
> 
> Debate brings out the truth.



Hasn't worked for politicians yet. 



Dammit, still working on that half a brain...  siiiigh.  I'm off this time, honest.


----------



## SifuPhil

Diwundrin said:


> Hasn't worked for politicians yet.



Politicians I place in a very isolated category, as they don't obey _any_ laws, be they natural, legal or logical.



> Dammit, still working on that half a brain...  siiiigh.  I'm off this time, honest.



That's what _she_ said ...


----------



## bufflo

Newly Old.  I have been on testosterone replacement for three years now.  It has been prescribed and monitored through the lab by my family physician.  I began with the gels.  I turned 65 two years ago and Medicare didn't cover the gels.  I was switched to injections at that time which was covered by Medicare at $40 to refill the prescription.  The prescription has lasted me about 3 months now.  I also started a low carb diet two years ago after knee replacement surgery.  I also started an exercise program at that time.  In my case all of this has been a God send.  I also have increased energy and I feel better than I have since I was in my 30's.  I have dropped 50 pounds during these two years.  Most of the weight loss have been fat pounds.  It is too difficult for me to measure.  But, I'm sure that I have gained muscle mass.  In September I changed to a plant based diet with seafood one day a week.  I retired in April of last year and now I have the time to prepare great plant based meals and do the time consuming shopping that is required.  This diet has helped with my energy even more.  I have also lost more weight & am now the lightest I have been in 30 years.  During this time I have never been hungry.  That is the advantage of a plant based diet.  I can eat all I want and not gain weight.  I still exercise every day albeit it is light exercise.  I will stop now with this lengthy posts to say that I have no profit to be made by getting anyone to try this life style other than the satisfaction that the someone will be living a happier and healthier life.


----------



## Diwundrin

Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.

This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?)  new posters who pop in with updates on the program.

Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style?  That is extraordinary!  

Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect.  It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs.  You may want to look at that.  There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.


----------



## Katybug

Diwundrin said:


> Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.
> 
> This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?)  new posters who pop in with updates on the program.
> 
> Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style?  That is extraordinary!
> 
> Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect.  It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs.  You may want to look at that.  There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.



I read one line of it, Di, and wish I could block these damned trolls!  I get all posts in my e-mail and don't know what it is 'til I click.....what a pain in the arse they are!!!!!  AS IF, any one of us will not realize exactly what you said in your post...same old crap!


----------



## SifuPhil

bufflo said:


> ...  In September I changed to a plant based diet with seafood one day a week ... That is the advantage of a plant based diet.  I can eat all I want and not gain weight ...



Um, unless my nutrition knowledge is faulty it's pretty much a scientific fact that if you take in more calories than you put out you're going to gain weight. The ingestion of ANY food to excess is going to lead to problems, so I'm assuming that it was just an over-enthusiastic claim.


----------



## bufflo

Resident Nutcase, I didn't say I ate to excess.  I said that I could eat all I wanted.  You are right.  Calories in must match calories out or weight gain or weight loss will take place.  I find that I am satisfied at fewer calories on a plant based diet.  I'm not saying I think I heard this or read this in a diet book.  I'm saying for me I can eat all I WANT on a plant based diet.


----------



## Casper

Diwundrin said:


> Umm, I promised myself to stay out of this subject and I will.
> 
> This post is purely to do with the writing style of the 'various' (?)  new posters who pop in with updates on the program.
> 
> Do you people realise that you 'all' write in exactly the same style?  That is extraordinary!
> 
> Perhaps research may reveal that quirk as a Testosterone enhancement side effect.  It seems to over-ride the natural propensity to split a post into paragraphs.  You may want to look at that.  There may be a supplement available to overcome the problem.



_*Our resident spy, Di, has picked up on something I didn't notice until it was pointed out.....*_
:magnify:


----------



## SifuPhil

bufflo said:


> Resident Nutcase, I didn't say I ate to excess.  I said that I could eat all I wanted.  You are right.  Calories in must match calories out or weight gain or weight loss will take place.  I find that I am satisfied at fewer calories on a plant based diet.  I'm not saying I think I heard this or read this in a diet book.  I'm saying for me I can eat all I WANT on a plant based diet.



Okay, as long as your wants don't exceed your needs. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against a healthy nutrition plan. I just know that people tend to stereotype vegetarians as skinny and malnourished, while we both know that isn't true for all. But from my experiences it's a bit more difficult to achieve balance with a vegetarian diet in today's world, with its emphasis on meat and junk food. It's a blessing that you have the time and the knowledge to create a healthy diet for yourself.

BUT ... as with Newly Old's regimen I am still not sure about the role testosterone supplementation takes in achieving health. I understand the diet, I understand the exercise - the T would I think just give you a boost equivalent to drinking a case of Red Bulls. I can see living the rest of your life eating properly and dieting - I can _not_ see taking injections for that same amount of time.


----------



## Newly Old

Buffl0- I wish my internist was able to prescribe and monitor my testosterone replacement.  It would save me a lot of money.  He is an excellent internist, but the monitoring of testosterone replacement involves a lot more than checking total and free testosterone levels.  There are other hormones that can change due to the testosterone, even though it is just bringing things into the normal range.  I considered seeing an endocrinologist, but now we are talking about big bucks again.

I have a friend whose doctor manages his testosterone, but he takes no insurance and has a concierge practice.  The initial examination is similar in cost to the Cenegenics evaluation, but does not include as wide a scope of testing as Cenegenics.  Then there are the multitude of "fringe" doctors, in my opinion, who can run up the costs even higher and "diagnose" and treat a multitude of "hidden problems" that are, in my opinion, less than scientifically sound.  

I have the disadvantage of being a physician, so I know what is required for me to be safely treated and monitored.  At the moment, my only option is my Cenegenics doctor.  Perhaps I will eventually find a doctor like yours, and save myself a lot of money.

Those of us who are on hormone replacement have similar successes.  We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid 30's."  It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the testosterone industry!

Newly Old.


----------



## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> Those of us who are on hormone replacement have similar successes.  We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid 30's."  It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the testosterone industry!
> 
> Newly Old.



... or it might just be seen by the rest of the population as being yet another representation of good health being available only to the highest bidders ... 

Any explanations as to _WHY_ T replacement needs to be so expensive? Because it's relatively new? Would you say that the prices charged are indicative of an equally high wholesale price? 

Somehow I doubt that.


----------



## Diwundrin

> We all seem to say, "I feel better than I have since I was in my mid  30's."  It makes us sound like fanatics or paid representatives of the  testosterone industry!


----------



## Katybug

Anne said:


> Oh geez, SifuPhil, I'm cracking up here at the video you posted!!     I DO have a shakeweight, and don't see that it's done a lot of good so far, but haven't used it as much as I intended to, either.  We'll see......
> 
> As far as Cenegenics, does anyone know if that's what Suzanne Somers advocates??  She's into Bioidentical Hormones, and apparently has noticed a lot of health benefits from them...and she certainly looks good for her age.
> 
> Of course, she exercises regularly and has what she feels is a healthy diet, also.



Suzanne does look fabulous, but that gal has had A LOT of work done -- all over.  She would have us believe it's all natural, not buying it!  I know several people who are obsessive about what they eat and exercising and have been for as long as I've known them. They still look their age in the face, still have wrinkles, so Botox & surgery is her secret. You can't wipe away wrinkles and look 20 yrs younger simply by exercising & eating healthy, but I would kill to look like her -- surgery or not!


----------



## SifuPhil

Suzanne Sommers uses ForeverHealth, which uses a network of associated physicians. They may or may not be affiliated with Cenegenics, I'm not sure, because I'm not giving ForeverHealth my email to find out. 

She's also their spokesperson and has written a book on hormone replacement.


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> ... or it might just be seen by the rest of the population as being yet another representation of good health being available only to the highest bidders ...
> 
> Any explanations as to _WHY_ T replacement needs to be so expensive? Because it's relatively new? Would you say that the prices charged are indicative of an equally high wholesale price?
> 
> Somehow I doubt that.



Testosterone is not expensive.  It comes out to around $20 per dose, if someone were to take the long acting shot given every 3 weeks.  It is a thick oil that is usually given in the buttocks.  Compounding pharmacies can custom make a variation that is easier to give- lateral thigh with a tiny needle once a week.  That avoids the peaks and valleys that create annoying side effects.  That is where the price can really go up, and it is not generally available to the general physician.  

Insurance plans do not consider "age management" a medical treatment because they say aging is not a disease.   Doctors who "accept" insurance are in fact under contract with the insurance companies to follow their rules and accept their fees.  They cannot just decide to give patients treatment for "age management" and let the patients pay out of pocket.  So, now you have the doctors who do not accept insurance as the ones who can do age management.  The plot thickens.

Doctors who choose not to accept insurance become "concierge" physicians.  They limit the size of their practice so that everybody gets close personalized care.  But, for this service, they charge a lot.  It can be $5000 to have the initial comprehensive health evaluation, which includes far more than would be done by a standard doctor who is limited by what insurance allows to be tested.

The "healthcare system" considers all doctors to be equivalent.  If you need knee surgery, the orthopedists on the plan are all anyone needs.  They will not cover for a patient to see the top arthroscopic knee expert who treats world class athletes, even though I would argue that they have much better skills and experience.  Many plans will not cover Sloan Kettering for cancer care.

So, according to the system, everybody gets as good care.  Concierge medicine is paying a lot for convenience and "service," but not medical care.  By the way, I can do a blood count on a young child in my office from a couple of drops by a painless fingerstick.  Many plans will not cover this.  The parent takes their child to the lab where blood is drawn from an arm vein of the petrified screaming toddler often requiring several attempts to get the blood .  Is this healthcare making a patient feel better???  Or is it having a well child endure unnecessary torture?

Back to concierge medicine.  Many top doctors have tried practicing without taking insurance, only to find that their were too few who could or wanted to pay our of pocket.  But, if a doctor is interested in practicing age management, a company like Cenegenics can provide the training (they charge a lot for their courses), have the infrastructure,  labs and pharmacies that can provide everything a patient needs.  But they are set up to provide "total" age management services, not just testosterone shots.  I wanted to do "everything" that is scientifically proven and "reasonable" to optimize the benefits, so Cenegenics was right for me.

Form a cynical view, one might look at it differently.  If you can only have a small number of clients, do you want to sell a basic product or require that they buy the comprehensive program.  It is justifiable, in my opinion, because I think it does not make sense to just take testosterone.  It has a lot of good effects, but it does not do nearly enough without the nutrition, exercise, supplements, monitoring, etc.  

Try this.  Go to a health club and ask to join for the use of the treadmill only.  Tell them that is all you need to improve your cardiovascular so you do not want to pay for or use the rest.  To me, that is the same as asking a doctor to just prescribe testosterone.

Remember, we are now talking about optimizing your life, which you are not entitled to under the healthcare system.

Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> Remember, we are now talking about optimizing your life, which you are not entitled to under the healthcare system.
> 
> Newly Old



I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.

"Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might _also_ be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life. 

Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.


----------



## bufflo

I take the injection every three weeks.  Medicare covers the T injections and my cost is $40 for about a 4 month supply.  Testosterone replacement therapy is not like Red Bull in effect.  I don't feel a "rush", or "boost" that subsides the next few hours.  The testosterone that I was prescribed is time released over the three week.  The effect is subtle and like Newly Old said a common report is, "I just feel better".  Please don't think that I'm trying to talk anyone into getting hormone replacement therapy.  That is a personal decision between patient and his doctor.  I'm simply happy to share my experience.  Like I said earlier, I've been on HRT for three years.  So, I guess I like it for myself.


----------



## SifuPhil

I'm glad it's working for you Bufflo, I really am, and I thank you for sharing.


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.
> 
> "Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might _also_ be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life.
> 
> Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.



This is my interpretation of the concept of "Optimization."       Some doctors believe that if someone has a testosterone at the low end of the normal range, it should be considered normal.  Others would say that if a person's testosterone in lower than 90% of males his age, and if he has symptoms of low testosterone, then he is not at what is normal for him.  Giving him testosterone to raise his to the middle of the normal range is correct if it gets rid of his symptoms of low testosterone.  His testosterone is being brought to where it is thought to be optimal for him.  Was he treated for low testosterone?  No.  By definition, his was not low.  But for HIS body function, it was.  So his testosterone was "optimized." 

"Normal" ranges are arbitrary definitions based on statistics.  If someone's testosterone level is lower than 90% of males his age and he is symptomatic of low testosterone, I don't think it is correct to say his testosterone level is normal.  But by definition it is.  But for HIM, it is too low.  Why not raise it if it makes his symptoms go away?

That is how I interpret hormone optimization.  It's bringing the hormone levels to the optimum physiologic level for that person.  

By the way, if you enrolled your 10 year old, the blood tests would all be normal (hopefully) so there would be no hormone treatments.  Supplements would be based on risk factors or known nutritional deficiencies.  A dietician would give a diet based on nutritional needs for the age, and on a review of the types of food the child likes and dislikes.   It would be organic, avoid all processed foods, restrict foods that are potentially carcinogenic, have complex carbohydrates only, and include 3 meals and 2 snacks.  An exercise routine would be custom designed after testing for strength, flexibility, fitness level, and preferred types of exercise.

So, yes, your 10 year old could theoretically be enrolled, but would waste money on extensive blood testing for issues that are common to the aging population, only.  The bone density for osteoporosis would be a waste, as would the testing for plaque in the coronary arteries.  The extensive cardio-pulmonary function testing apparatus would not fit that size a child.  And that is the part of Cenegenics which is hard to get elsewhere.

One last thing.  (see next post)


----------



## Diwundrin

..


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> I appreciate the well-regarded response and I'm going to address each of your points eventually, but one thing that really struck me was this last line.
> 
> "Optimizing"? I suppose from your viewpoint it would be. I still see it as a form of life extension. It might _also_ be optimizing it, but later in the game, after I've already lived half or three-quarters of my life.
> 
> Could I enroll my fictional 10-year-old in the program? They could monitor all his levels throughout his life, always assuring him that he was at the peak of his powers every step of the way.



I have been unclear in my explanations.  I do not see optimization as life extension.  I have not heard anyone at Cenegenics look at it as life extension.  I see it as making my body function as well as possible TODAY.  I am optimizing how my body is TODAY.   I will be constantly monitored and have treatments adjusted as I age so that I am optimized at those times also.  I do not expect any additional days.  It will be great to have all my days be at a much higher level, even if no more are added.  I will be happy to surrender a few, if they are the poor quality days that my relatives had in their final years.

This is not an intellectual argument for me.  It is reality because it is working for me.  I am living and functioning as if I were more than 20 years younger.

Newly old.


----------



## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> This is not an intellectual argument for me.  It is reality because it is working for me.  *I am living and functioning as if I were more than 20 years younger.
> *
> Newly old.



And yet you are not. 

Does that not bother you, on some level? Do you not feel that the piper must be paid in some way, some day? 

I suppose this is the crux of our differing viewpoints; that you accept that you can delay the signs of aging, and I do not. Oh, sure, you can gain some extra energy, more than the "normal" individual, and that's a good thing, I agree.

But I feel that if I were participating in this program I would question what price I would be paying when the injections no longer have an effect on me, or an injurious one; I would question what would happen when I could no longer do the exercises due to physical limitations, and I would question if, when the natural, universal laws are enacted upon my body and mind, I would experience a sharper, steeper, harsher fall into my actual chronological age.

I see aging - all of life, in fact - as a timeline that is defined and relies upon certain natural "markers" placed along the way. Those markers tell us that we're on the proper path of that timeline. Perhaps it's because this specific implementation of optimization is relatively new, but I see it as being equivalent to mischievous vandals going out at night, pulling those markers and re-setting them much farther apart. 

They haven't changed the actual end of the road - they've just conned the travelers into thinking that they have many more miles to go until the end. Those who have already traveled the road arrived at their destination with a certain equanimity of spirit - they knew what was coming, it was no surprise to them and they were able to handle it much more efficiently than those who followed the misplaced markers expecting the road to go on much longer, only to find an abrupt "End of Road" sign. 

I'm heartened that you're satisfied with your results so far. I can only say that even if I were able and willing to invest in such a program, I would still have serious reservations about what I perceive as tampering with nature. Call me uninformed, call me a Luddite, but that's just the way I feel.


----------



## Newly Old

You bring up good points.  But, I still look to the medical model.

If someone develops an under active thyroid, we put them on thyroid.  Otherwise, their body functions deteriorate.   Why not the same for testosterone?

If the someone's testosterone level is abnormally low, shouldn't that be treated?

On a similar note, do you people should take ******? Most people with erectile dysfunction are normal men who are experiencing one of the normal aging changes.  Is that inappropriate?

People often become lactose intolerant because their stomachs no longer secret enough lactase enzyme.  Should we give them replacement lactase (Lact-aid).

If a women has osteoporosis due to aging, should we leave it or try to improve her bone mineralization so that her bones are less fragile.  Falls are a major cause of disability in the elderly.

If a person's heart starts to fail due to aging, should we put them on Digoxin, or say it is a normal part of aging so they need to curtail physical activity?

If a person's vision deteriorates, is it wrong to do Lasix?  Remove cataracts due to aging if it is only to improve vision, not to correct blindness?

The list goes on.   Many body parts lose structure or function as part of the normal aging process.  We treat them to improve life.  Why not replace testosterone if it's deficiency is causing symptoms?  Does it matter if it is due to aging, injury to the testes or removal due to cancer?  The result is the same. 

Remember, I do not feel better because testosterone is a mood enhancer.  I feel better because I have lost muscle wasting and gained strength.  I have lost fatigue and now have the energy to exercise.  Exercise is now better because testosterone allow for my muscles to respond well to the exercise so I see and feel the results.  My central fat is much less, so my knees do not hurt after a lot of walking.  Without the big gut, I found myself walking more upright.  I no longer have an aching back at the end of the day.  My restored libido is a welcome thing, even though I consider it just going along for the ride.

In other words, I feel better because the testosterone replacement is reversing some of the physical problems caused by low testosterone.  Or should I let the deterioration continue?    If my heart were starting to fail due to aging, should I be given treatment that can restore cardiac function?  Or should I accept that I am old and unable to climb stairs, and need to sit up at night to breathe because heart failure causes fluid to build up in the lungs during sleep every night. 

Cenegenics is not about extending life.  It is to make lit better by preserving and restoring function, including hormones IF the person is proven to be deficient.  Again, I ask what is wrong with correcting a hormone deficiency?  Might there be some "price" down the line?  Maybe.  But there is a DEFINITE price to pay if low testosterone is left untreated.  And that price starts now, and will increase year by year.


----------



## Newly Old

The following are some of the biologic effects of correcting low testosterone:

increase bone mineral density
increase muscle strength
increase lean mass
decrease fat mass
decrease waist circumference
increase exercise capacity
decrease waist/hip ratio
increase ****** interest, desire, erection, ****** activity/ejaculations, satisfaction with sex life.

Abdominal obesity is major risk for hypertension, dyslipidemia, type 2 diabetes which all increase risk of coronary heart disease.

These are some of the established effects (from Eur J Endocrinoogy 165: 675-678 (2011)

But, I am only in favor of giving testosterone to those with proven deficiency.  That means confirmed low testosterone by blood tests PLUS symptoms of low testosterone.

I would add that the symptoms must resolve on treatment or it does not fit the diagnosis of low testosterone.  This is pretty much what the Endocrine Society's guidelines say.

Newly Old


----------



## bufflo

See below for my personal experience.  I should add that I am now off of statins and beta blockers too.  I do not take any supplements other than krill oil.



Newly Old said:


> The following are some of the biologic effects of correcting low testosterone:
> 
> increase bone mineral density      not measured
> increase muscle strength            yes
> increase lean mass                    yes, based on pinch caliper measurements
> decrease fat mass                     same as above
> decrease waist circumference      44 inch to 36 inch
> increase exercise capacity          I now exercise everyday
> decrease waist/hip ratio             higher
> increase ****** interest, desire, erection, ****** activity/ejaculations, satisfaction with sex life.         much better - ask around.
> 
> Abdominal obesity is major risk for hypertension, dyslipidemia, type 2 diabetes which all increase risk of coronary heart disease.
> 
> These are some of the established effects (from Eur J Endocrinoogy 165: 675-678 (2011)
> 
> But, I am only in favor of giving testosterone to those with proven deficiency.  That means confirmed low testosterone by blood tests PLUS symptoms of low testosterone.
> 
> I would add that the symptoms must resolve on treatment or it does not fit the diagnosis of low testosterone.  This is pretty much what the Endocrine Society's guidelines say.
> 
> Newly Old


----------



## rt3

*insight*



bufflo said:


> See below for my personal experience.  I should add that I am now off of statins and beta blockers too.  I do not take any supplements other than krill oil.



not answering the question on Cenegenics specifically, nor have I followed the train of thought through your posts. Statements made are from the position of a compounding pharmacist that has worked for Cene and approx. 900 other MDs over a period of 10 years specific to hormone replacement, nutrition, and supplements. I have nothing to sell, have no personal stake, simply doing this to help clean up some of the outdated, misinformation and look into some of more complicated areas of this topic. Having used hormone replacement therapy etc, for quite awhile, and at the age of 68 I feel the need to help some of us older folk kick the kaka out of some of the stupid stuff I see the young folk doing. posting now to see if this web site works.


----------



## rt3

good the post works- now for a few facts. this may have been already posted, but I'm not going to review, too old/no time

The participation by MD's in the Cenegenics franchise allows the MD to use Cenes call in center, to order the rx and "packages" without the MD needing a staff for this purpose. MD's pay into the franchise get to use their resources, win/win for both sides--on the business side. 

lab results really don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need. a normal range is meaningless. its a statistical average used by the lab company.
as an example the TSH range has recently been suggested to be reduced to around 3 as the 5 level rejected to many people in race/ethnic groups known to be lower.

test. is converted to estrogen E2 in men, estrogen has significant cardio protective properties
recent heart attacks/problems in the news from test. given to men are more than likely due to surges in estrogen breaking away the plaques. but the FDA decision to investigate will no doubt stir the pot.

everyone over 30 has low thyroid-  t4 is not the same as t3     t4 is inactive

the start of the entire sequence is in the electron transport system, and adrenal stress.


----------



## That Guy




----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> good the post works- now for a few facts. this may have been already posted, but I'm not going to review, too old/no time
> 
> The participation by MD's in the Cenegenics franchise allows the MD to use Cenes call in center, to order the rx and "packages" without the MD needing a staff for this purpose. MD's pay into the franchise get to use their resources, win/win for both sides--on the business side.
> 
> lab results really don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need. a normal range is meaningless. its a statistical average used by the lab company.
> as an example the TSH range has recently been suggested to be reduced to around 3 as the 5 level rejected to many people in race/ethnic groups known to be lower.
> 
> test. is converted to estrogen E2 in men, estrogen has significant cardio protective properties
> recent heart attacks/problems in the news from test. given to men are more than likely due to surges in estrogen breaking away the plaques. but the FDA decision to investigate will no doubt stir the pot.
> 
> everyone over 30 has low thyroid-  t4 is not the same as t3     t4 is inactive
> 
> the start of the entire sequence is in the electron transport system, and adrenal stress.



I would like to add a few comments.  Since you are new to this (and a welcome addition), let my briefly review my stance.  I posted a thread for whomever was interested in what I would be experiencing upon joining Cenegenics.  I am a physician, so I do have some knowledge in the area, but it is not my area of expertise.

You are correct about the relationship of Cenegenics and their physicians.  MD's do not just pay in to use their services.  The MD's are required to take courses at Cenegenics conferences, which they must do on an ongoing basis to keep their expertise up to date.  They pay thousands to attend.  (Non-Cenegenics doctors can also attend the courses, but I assume at a higher tuition.)

I think saying, "lab results don't tell you anything about the level of hormones you need" is too extreme.  Lab tests don't tell you EVERYTHING about the level of hormones you need.  In medicine, there is a saying that goes, "Treat the patient, not the lab test."  But the lab test is a critical part of the evaluation and monitoring.  The key is that the results need to be INTERPRETED by the doctor and then put in context.   Doctors look at the entire picture which includes physical examination, lab tests, other diagnostic tests, diet, sleep, stress, exercise and other things that may be brought out by the initial evaluation.

Another important use of labs is to make sure that there isn't another cause of symptoms.  You can have the same symptoms and find severe anemia on the blood count.  If that is found, then an evaluation must be made to find out why.  It may be due to a malignancy.  It may be due to intestinal blood loss.  I can name at least a dozen serious conditions which mimic low T which can be screened for with the initial lab panel done by Cenegenics.

Finally, lab tests are a critical part of monitoring treatment.  T replacement call elevate estrogens to a problem level.  PSA can indicate that the T is stimulating an undiagnosed prostate cancer.   T can elevate hematocrit to dangerous levels, so some (like me) need to donate blood periodically to keep the levels safe.

As far as the heart disease risk, the study showed increased risk in patients with known heart disease.  Studies of patients without pre-existing heart disease showed T to be protective.

I am a physician and I know that I do not have the expertise to treat and monitor hormone optimization.  Neither does my internist.  But I trust the education and expertise of my Cenegenics physician.

And what do you mean T4 is inactive??? Are you referring to "total T4" of are you saying that "free T4" is inactive?

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

lab test only tell you if your patient is getting some of the drug. there isn't a correlation between drug effect and dose (dose related) with hormones such as other drugs, treating the patient is surely the answer, but often neglected today.  T4 must be converted to T3 and each site does it at a different rate, to complicated matters more the conversion is second order mass action expression and nothing to do with first order exponential elimination, (biological half-life) and to complicated the matter even more, the incidence of auto immune disorders of the gluten type are far more than reported. test. stimulation of prostrate cancer is unproven. psa recently has been dropped as a should have test and increases simply by rubbing the prostrate. 
only reason t4 is even used, because of old school thought t3 doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. however spinal fluid shows t3 levels rise with just t3 dosing
back to Cenegenics- they have a different approach than "traditional hormone therapy" usually including if not starting with HCG, an aromatase inhibitor, thyroid and test. inj. whereas most docs start with a test crème. cene can also introduce HGH at the time they select, and some of them are exploring Semorlen 
not saying this good or bad, just they are not bogged down with the dogma of traditional endo.


----------



## rt3

would also add cene is ahead of most hormones doc. in using natural aromatase inhibitors, recognizing the problem of mitochondrial electron transport (using CoQ10) and although they don't say one way or another the possible advantages of its use to of set statins (which is a possible cause of some of the hearing loss associated with). via electron transport.


----------



## rt3

would also add, Cene is slower than a lot of other docs. when using and considering test crèmes in females------- and we haven't even got into how the formulations will give you different lab values.


----------



## Newly Old

There is a large range from a test having no value to a test being used to guide treatment.  A test is one of the tools physicians should use, and the limitations of the tests need to be taken into account.  PSA's not being used as screening tests for prostate cancer is irrelevant.  Serial measurements in a given patient do have value in monitoring their condition.  Limitations of TFT's is also irrelevant.  There are limitations to all tests.  There are false positives and false negatives.  But that does not mean they are useless.  

My experience as a Cenegenics patient differs from what you describe. My treatment plan is individualized to my needs.  But I must strongly disagree with you about testosterone gel.  There are some real drawbacks to it.  It is an easier "sell" to patients, but in my opinion injections are a far better way to give testosterone.  

Newly old.


----------



## jrfromafar

"So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do."


----------



## rt3

PSA to do screening for the effects of testosterone are irrelevant, you have it turned around. Heh, I'm glad your happy with Cene, but beside the points of my posts. Cene uses a formulary, for which the "specialized" treatment for you is selected, "lets see you need 1 of a 3 of b" please don't tell me, I did their compounding. Injections of test. 

The individualization occurs only with the concentration. This is an example of "start low go slow" dosing. Hormones have no toxic upper limits or therapeutic dosage range such as published in medical literature. Indeed most are used off label.

 It is possible to "slam em and see what falls out", but of course this would violate legal protocols. Inj. are better for the MD because they give the most reliable reads of lab values, not for the pt. The only real (methylcellulose colloidal) gels are used by the big pharm. Compounding uses a formulation of the drug in a water soluable base with a lot of alcohol which allows them to label it as a gel under FDA guidelines.

 Usually the best form of any drug is triturates, or RTD (rapid dissolving tablets) which are sublingual. In tests case there is so much storage in the salivary glands, the release does not occur resembling any log curve. Transdermal liposome creams have the best transport and (when applied correctly) blood levels, this has been proven by the PCAB,PCCA etc. and are the form of choice (perhaps not yours).

 Both avoid liver degradation.  Hormones are not drugs, in a pharmacology sense, they are only because the FDA has labeled them as therefore. Hormones can move both ways in the metabolic process, changing back into their own precursors, can actually alter DNA, and effect every cell in the body. No other FDA defined drug has this property.

A lot of the MDs, across the US, that have been doing hormones for a while rarely use tests, and have taught their patients which signs to look for, such that the patient does their own dosing. Very few MD know the limitations of any of the tests they use, most rely on the suggestions of the Clinical Path. associated with the testing lab their using. 

Most tests would require the use of Mass Spec. and equipment out of the financial range of the local lab. Given this and that most insurance companies deny claims for hormone test puts hormone therapy out of range for most andropause males. Even this may be restricted by the FDA more with their upcoming studies. Remember test. is Class 3 drug, and the gov.. considers its use by you no different than if you were taking Lortab all the time.


----------



## That Guy

jrfromafar said:


> I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do."



Not.


----------



## rt3

some discussion of "program individualized for each person" needs to be. If the individualism program is calibrating (titrating) the dose of a specific hormone or hormones to that person based on concentration changes of the initial hormone -- good luck. 

what you are saying is that you are using a quantitative measuring metric to adjust a non-definable end point. In the example of test,e2,and p4 this would require the removal of any source of precursor in the metabolic pathway. no more soy products for you guy (at the least). In the case of thyroid this would eliminate, gluten based products and monitoring both t3 and rt3 if the patient is receiving the t4 dogma regimen. 

so what would individualization involve? Depends on the person. given just 2 people they probably won't even read the directions on the label the same. If you have gout problems, individualism could include, allopurinol, removal of glutens from diet. Just starting hormones could precipitate an attack. If your goals are I'll do everything necessary to loose weight and get healthy as long as I can eat in a good restaurant every night-- etc. 

The first step is recognizing the inflammation process is part of hormone therapy. Stress, cortisol, are signs that the hormones are out of whack, not an arthritis problem. Getting the oxygen to one of the largest muscles in the body is on top of the lists.

 Rebalance the aldosterone and kidney function (adrenal stress). I've seen some Cene docs do this as well as Physioage, and MedQuest docs do this. I have seen a lot that don't. Out of all the MD out there start with this and conclude their patience didn't need it I doubt it. 
Carl Jung once said "Woman have irrational opinions". "Men have irrational moods".  His wife said. "Hormones for Bitches"


----------



## Old Hipster

I'm just going to age naturally like my granny's did. Some folks live to a ripe old age all on their on.


----------



## Vivjen

I admit I am only a thick retail pharmacist from a different country; but this is all totally beyond me....perhaps because I am a blonde woman?


----------



## Newly Old

Correct testosterone testing is easy for all doctors to obtain.  When we order testosterone tests, it is simple to have the lab send it to a reference lab for analysis liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry.  That is the correct way to have it done.  That is what is recommended in the Endocrine Society's recent guidelines for the diagnosis and treatment of low testosterone.  I would hope that all people reading these threads would use a competent, well trained up to date physician.  This is the standard of care.

<<<Very few MD know the limitations of any of the tests they use, most rely on the suggestions of the Clinical Path. associated with the testing lab their using.>>>

Let me pretend that you have statistics to show that.  Better yet, let me accept that as a true fact.  The point is that few MD's have expertise in hormone replacement.  The ones who do have the knowledge are the ones who DO know the limitations of the test.  They KNOW the current literature and recommendations.  They DO  use reference labs.  They DO know how to interpret tests and they DO know how to diagnose and treat.

Allowing people to determine their own dose and intervals of T without testing may be common, but that does not mean it is correct.  The usual method is for people to note when their libido drops off along with energy level.  Testosterone therapy can increase a person's hematocrit to harmful levels (polycythemia).  How do they tell that for themselves.  without lab tests?  Do they have to wait to have a stroke or a heart attack from the polycythemia?   How about the alteration in estrogens?  Do they wait for breast enlargement (gynecomastia).

Testosterone gel is easily transferred by contact to others, which can be a real problem to someone hugging their child, their spouse, etc.  That is the real world.  I have seen patients who found it awkward and uncomfortable to use, and also where it did not provide the therapeutic effect as they had experienced with the injections.  I know of numerous cases where people went back to shots because they did not like using the gel.  That is the real world of real patients.  The gel sounds better than shots to most people, but in the real world, patients who have used both are the ones who say which is better for them.

Just to summarize:  If someone is considering hormone optimization, there are doctors who have the expertise to do it properly.  It requires a correct diagnosis.  It requires a physical examination, a variety of blood tests and other tests.  Treatment, if needed, needs to be done and monitored by the MD which includes certain blood tests.  It is a given that a doctor with the expertise will have the ability to choose the tests, choose the lab and method, and interpret the results IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE CLINICAL PICTURE.

Newly Old


----------



## Ozarkgal

Yes, I want to age disgracefully, like OH.


----------



## rt3

there isn't a correct or incorrect way, there is a safer way for MD (usually involves legal ramifications), the only thing your describing is your medical practice, which is good not knocking that, just saying what I've seen after filling 1500 scripts from Cene, 500 from Physioage, and 400 from Medquest per day, and talking with about 30 docs from all over the country about lab tests, and seeing reviewing more of them on hormones in 1 week than most MD do in a year --- but that's another thing. The most knowledgeable people on using test are the weight lifters, but that doesn't mean either you or I want to follow there path. Cene uses anastrozole to block the estrogen pathway, Rossier in Palm Springs, the author of many endo books etc. deplores the use, 
Most contact test is from vapor deposition of the spouse during the night time and incorrect use at bedtime, applied correctly to the inner thigh after a shower there is no problem with children. Which way a patient wants to apply it has nothing to do with the optimization of the product. Would change your last paragraph to read most prescribers of etc. as most scripts done today are done by PA's and NPs. Saying that it should be done in the entire clinical picture, is to walk away from the question, what is the entire clinical picture, its different for each medical person. If the pt. and doc can work something out great--- doing nothing is the worst picture.
to most people the only thing certain is death and taxes
to lawyers -- death, taxes and rear end collisions 
to hormone practitioners-- you will age


----------



## Old Hipster

Ozarkgal said:


> Yes, I want to age disgracefully, like OH.


Welcome to the club. There are lots of us hanging in there all by ourselves!


----------



## SifuPhil

Old Hipster said:


> Welcome to the club. There are lots of us hanging in there all by ourselves!



I'm not going to age because some guy with a Scottish accent told me I'm immortal.

... or was it "immoral"? It was hard to understand him.


----------



## rt3

appreciate the status quo stance, but it reminds me of people saying Ford didn't have a college education, and the reply, boy think of what he would of done if he had.
no need to do things by ourselves

you need some ambition drug   ---- some t3  I know an MD at this very web site who can help you. 

many good practitioners on the web for hormones , do a web search in your area, many good results without going the concierge route,


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> you need some ambition drug   ---- some t3  I know an MD at this very web site who can help you.



In other words, you're our friendly neighborhood pusher.

Please. 

Ambition is responsible for most of this world's ills, and you want to sell us _more?_ You're in the wrong neighborhood - go sell it to the teen weightlifters who, by your own admission, are _so_ knowledgeable about it.


----------



## rt3

for some people ambition is just getting out of bed


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> for some people ambition is just getting out of bed



Heh, heh ... very true. But then, they're usually not the ones concerned about their testosterone levels ...


----------



## Diwundrin

Is anyone else a little saddened that all this copied and pasted pretend patter is aimed at men who define their worth as human beings only by their degree of  ****** function that is attained or lost by every other placental mammal on the planet without them even thinking about it?   

Are men really selling themselves so 'short'??  
A good man with a solid character and intelligence is one to be treasured regardless of his stallion status.  Every male idiot has a dick. Just sayin'.

Like women who dress to impress other women, this all seems a tad strange to me. Do men  think bragging about 'fixing' their ED impresses women?  It doesn't this one, I just see them as egotistical tossers. But maybe that's just me. 
 Or is it just to impress other men as something to brag about?  Which amounts to a p*ssing competition and an even worse reason.

Is it about 'health' really?  

Or is it about selling expensive products to cater to  the same panic syndrome that makes aging fools grow pony tails and buy Harleys or dinky Sports Cars and dress like old pimps with a gold tooth and necklace to pretend they still 'got it' to impress younger women who aren't worth impressing?   
Or for that matter aging women putting plastic faces and Jello boobs on wrinkled bodies who think they're foolin' anyone other than themselves.

Are aging wives a little worried about all these rejuvenated old studs wandering about looking for greener pastures?

What's it really all about ...'Alfie'??

Oh yeah, forgot.  It's a PRODUCT sales pitch posted to appear to be earnest comments by tame Doctors to give appearances of validity.  Like the dentists flogging toothpaste in the mirror on TV ads. Right.  Got it now.



... yes, M it's perfectly okay with me to flick this post. Couldn't resist, over it now... sorry. :bigwink:  :rofl:


----------



## rt3

HaHaHa  good one -- you got me. sifu


Fountain of youth stuff has been around sense beginning of man. Its not going to change. Its one of the driving forces on this planet. While Freud originated the term libido the word was given more definition by Jung explaining it to be a creative force of man, of which the biological procreation was just one side. Unfortunately main stream got hold and changed it to having a primary ****** orientation.
I certainly agree with Diwundrin that the economic flux from this outcome could probably be better channeled thru increases in social resources, however this has little to do with Hormone replacement management as it exists today. Only in the last 5 years has it been able to "rip" away from the dogma of big pharm and become available to regular folks on an affordable level. Over 50,000 women die yearly from incorrect/estrogen levels from the wrong information and use of conjugated estrogens pushed by the folks Diwundrin (marketing) points out occurring during the 70-90's era. Death from a heart attack in men by lack of estrogen converted testosterone isn't even considered by the current medical community to be a reason, (non-causality). How can anyone, at any age when the statistics are already stacked to reflect preconceived notions, form a legitimate opinion on hormones. Compared to test the years and numbers of studies done on estrogen are 1000 times greater, yet no agreement among the people who should know. What are they afraid of? Could it be peer pressure? Ask the people who take the products.

Just a reminder to Sifu---t3 works really well for depression


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> Just a reminder to Sifu---t3 works really well for depression



Long-term concerns are still in the majority of opinions of most psychiatrists, most of them preferring the FDA-approved Aripiprazole and Quetiapine. It also seems to be best practice to monitor thyroid indices and to cycle-off for 5-7 days since T3 is so strong.


----------



## rt3

there isn't a good lab test for tsh, if you want to test for rt3 and t3 you could certainly get values. Psychiatrist, clinical psychologist aren't really up to speed on t3, and there is a body of evidence indicating t3 works just as well. t3 has none of the side effects associated with the drugs you mention, and the specific side effects of t3 are mostly beneficial. t3 has a 1/2 like of 4-6 hours so I don't understand why you are cycling of for 5-7 days. I've talked to body builders who when using HCG and injecting large doses of test, will cycle off t3, but not "normal" people.
Love the cenegenics add, this site must be using some type of AI search tool to get this up.


----------



## d0ug

Most of the longest living people never where vaccinated never seen a doctor or went to the hospital if that's what it takes to live long I guess I am out of luck but I am going to do my best.


----------



## rt3

not sure where the causality is?  Bill Gates built one the most beautiful homes, and never layed a brick,  Da Vinci never took a painting lesson etc. I could go on also.


----------



## Vivjen

US and UK health systems differ greatly I know.

Over here, HRT for women has dropped in use greatly, and is often not used as first line treatment. If it is used, it is recommended for the shortest time possible.
it would never be used as a first line treatment for depression, only to alleviate symptoms caused by estrogen lack.

Testosterone is not used for this kind of treatment at all...only in specific circumstances.

Quetiapine and Apriprazole are not recommended for long term use in the elderly, especially for depression; it is now contra-indicated for first line treatment.

Does this mean we are ahead of you or behind?

Is long term use of testosterone going to produce the same problems as HRT did?

Does anybody know?


----------



## rt3

HRT is not a first line treatment for anything, its a preventative, holistic approach, hopefully incorporating, diet,exercise etc.
most gynecologists in the USA have the position that there is no such thing as lack of estrogen-- 
usually in HRT therapy progesterone is used to "control" the estrogen, even if estrogen is lacking, p4 is added back to help control the conversion back to DHEA will cause an immune response, (pimples)
I suspect the UK is behind simply because of the shear numbers of people on HRT in the USA and thanks to the lab rat body builders who have been pushing HGH, and high test for the last 15 years, there will all kinds of information coming out. unofficial of course.
could you be more specific on the test vs HRT problem?
are you referring to the incorrect studies using Medroxyprogesterone, and conjugated estrogens, and methyltestosterone which studies and which conclusions are you referring?


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> ... Psychiatrist, clinical psychologist aren't really up to speed on t3, and there is a body of evidence indicating t3 works just as well.



And as always there are equally convincing bodies of evidence that it does not. 



> t3 has none of the side effects associated with the drugs you mention, and the specific side effects of t3 are mostly beneficial.



HOW many long-term studies have been performed? _That's_ what scares _me_.



> t3 has a 1/2 like of 4-6 hours so I don't understand why you are cycling of for 5-7 days.



From what I've researched t3 has a half-life of 1 to 2-1/2 days. Are you sure about that 4-6 hours? 



> I've talked to body builders who when using HCG and injecting large doses of test, will cycle off t3, but not "normal" people.



I'm surprised and a bit taken-aback that you place so much faith in bodybuilders. If you told your typical hard-core barbell boy that injecting rat feces would give them a great pump they'd be fighting over the syringes ... 



> Love the cenegenics add, this site must be using some type of AI search tool to get this up.



Probably the Google Adword engine doing its magic ...


----------



## rt3

regrettably the only thing for sure are, death, taxes, and rear end collisions

t3 use or Cytomel has been around since Synthroid which threw more add money into the selling to America the use of t4

if someone came out with a true time release t3 it would be the biggest drug on the market, no money in it, no way to patent, yep real short 1/2 life, and the picture gets worse if you using t4.

no faith bodybuilders, I take what they say with a grain of salt, gauging it with what can be fact or fiction based on a firm foundation, in pharmakinectics, biopharmaceuticals, pharmacology,physiology, and kinematics. I agree on the syringe part.


----------



## Vivjen

HRT is only used here for the treatment of menopausal symptoms adversely affecting the quality of life, at the lowest effective dose, for the shortest possible time.

This is because of the increase of risk in breast, endometrial and cervical cancer.
also thromboembolism and risk of stroke.

We try to prevent osteoporosis by other methods.

Long-term use is not encouraged because of these factors, how do you now testosterone will not prove to have similar unintended consequences in the long term

Maybe one reason could be that we do not pay for our treatments, so 'anti-aging' is not so high on our list of priorities; prevention of cancers and other diseases, such as dementia, is more cost effective to the NHS.


----------



## rt3

just a note,  many products that are correctly food products, or supplements, but advertised as having drug properties also incorrectly state they are SR. This SR designation is slow release, not sustained release. There is a distinct difference, both in the science of pharmaceutical preparation and legal from the FDA. A slow release or delayed release product merely protects the active ingredient thru stomach transit. A time release product is formulated to effectively change the biological 1/2 life of the drug, or increase the frame by releasing an amount of drug necessary to keep the blood level equal to the first dose.
inj. forms, such as the doc on this site prefers in these posts, the test is incorporated in a heavy oil, (usually cottonseed) which allows the drug to leech from this repository and based on the physical value of its lipid/water partition coefficient enters the blood and gives those beautiful consistent lab values in log degradation MD loves to see (fits in the neat box)--- however since all hormones are on/off switches, there  biochemical action resemble sinusoidal transcendental functions (LTI linear time invariant) waves (doesn't fit the box).  Nature doesn't need pi


----------



## rt3

(not sure I'm doing this correctly)

the heart risk, cancer etc. information is way way out of date.  these were caused by medroxyprogesterone, methytest, conjugated estrogens, not natural e2,p4
methytestosterone  can and will effect the liver, anabolic substitues such as Durabinol etc. can and will, these are not natural hormone replacement therapy.


----------



## Vivjen

So we must be behind then.....that is all we have.


----------



## Newly Old

As a follow-up on my experience with Cenegenics-

I am in my fifth month and am extremely pleased with the results.  My increased energy and endurance has been a great asset.  One of the doctors in our group got injured, so I am now working an additional day and night.  Another way of saying it is that I work 6 1/2 days a week, including two 14 hour days.  I never could have done that before Cenegenics.  And I have plenty of energy all day, every day.

I had my routine bloods drawn this week.

I had fallen off on my exercise routine, but when my Cenegenics physician heard this, he said that he would drop me as a patient if I would not exercise regularly.  He is adament that I must be committed to following the whole program to get the best results.  That motivated (and impressed) me.  He has me following the Gorilla Workout app because it is too difficult and expensive to go to the gym.

My testosterone shots were changed to twice a week to correspond to my body's shorter half life.  It is a bit of an inconvenience, but has made the effects smoother.

I go in for an exam, body fat testing, etc.  next month.  I can see that I have significantly lost fat and gained muscle.

So far, it has been the best thing I have ever done for myself.

Newly Old


----------



## GoodGenesMike

We all know a balance diet, excercise, and keeping stress levels low are the ultimate age defying actions we can take...good genes help to!


----------



## Newly Old

Just logging in for my progress.  I started Cenegenics at the end of September 2013.  I joined because I had a lifetime of poor eating habits, weight gain, lack of exercise and a lifetime of failed diets.  I had studied testosterone replacement and believed that it could be done safely and add to my well-being.  I am not interested in living longer.  I am interested in being active and functional until I die.  Whether this program will bite me in the ass has year to be seen, but I think the risks of that are low.  I have reviewed the literature and spoken with doctors who are for and against testosterone replacement.  For me, the risk vs benefit ratio is way in my favor.

I find that I have no problem with the eating plan.  I have not had a cake, cookie, donut, candy or other sweet since September and surprisingly have no interest.  I remember the time that I loved such things, but I also remember when I loved to waterski and take tumbling falls at 50 MPH. 

I weighted myself for the first time since September and I lost 25 pounds and gained muscle.  My energy level remains excellent.  People who have not seen me say I look great.  One just said I looked rested and looked like I just returned from a vacation at a spa with a nice tan....

But that is my biggest problem.  I am not tan.  I am red, because my hematocrit is high.  It is a known side effect of testosterone, and I was told in advance that I might have to periodically donate blood to keep it down.  It is in a "safe" range.  I take a baby aspirin every day, as part of the program and I have no plaque on my carotids by ultrasound.  That was part of the initial screening.   My doctor and blood specialists have said I am fine at this level, but I do not like having the issue.

Am I staying on the program?  Absolutely.  Overall it has been great, and I feel great.  But let's see if my testosterone dose will have to be lowered or stopped.  As I said from the beginning, nobody should be on testosterone unless they are closely monitored by a physician with expertise in the area.

When I started Cenegenics and started to post, I wanted people to see what the program was really like for someone.  I had seen no such posts, just extreme opinions and misinformation.   I will continue to report the good and the bad.  So far,  I am very happy I am on the program and very happy with the results.  The blood side effect is a real annoyance, but that is all.

You are welcome to debate your opinions on Cenegenics with each other, but I am not going to get into any arguments about the significance or relevance of the hematocrit issue.  Nor will I reply to any threads debating the merits, risks, folly of being on the Cenegenics program. I trust my experts, and am comfortable with my decisions.   My goal is to present HONEST and ACCURATE information, nothing more.  I neither promote, nor defend what I am doing to my own body.  

I don't mean this to curb debate.  It is my personal choice not to participate in the debate.  In medicine, we are given case presentations in conferences.  The facts about the patient are presented and there is discussion and a variety of conclusions.  The patient being presented is never their to comment on what they did or why.  I am your case presentation.       

Anyone care to discuss this case with the other forum members?

Newly old.


----------



## rt3

Good to hear its going well, I'm not suprized. Cenegenics has good results, however way to pricey, as the same thing can be had for less.

While skin coloration is a reported side effect of Test. it is more from the increase thickness of the skin, and increased circulation than a direct cause/effect type thing. But this is good. You can then be called a "Red Neck" with authority. Most of the people, men and women, who use test. supplements have no color changes, but some report increase in pimples around the hair line. This is common with test. and DHEA of which I will not give the biochemical pathways--- so you will keep reading. Your results are seen more with the injectables.

It would be fruitless to discuss your case, as you outlined, without knowing all the drugs you were on.


Hormones replacement therapy, unlike most drugs, are beneficial because of their side effect profiles, rather than their direct pharmacological profile.


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> Good to hear its going well, I'm not suprized. Cenegenics has good results, however way to pricey, as the same thing can be had for less.
> 
> While skin coloration is a reported side effect of Test. it is more from the increase thickness of the skin, and increased circulation than a direct cause/effect type thing. But this is good. You can then be called a "Red Neck" with authority. Most of the people, men and women, who use test. supplements have no color changes, but some report increase in pimples around the hair line. This is common with test. and DHEA of which I will not give the biochemical pathways--- so you will keep reading. Your results are seen more with the injectables.
> 
> It would be fruitless to discuss your case, as you outlined, without knowing all the drugs you were on.
> 
> 
> Hormones replacement therapy, unlike most drugs, are beneficial because of their side effect profiles, rather than their direct pharmacological profile.




FYI, I take a MVI, fish oil, Vit D3, Magnesium Orotate, 1 baby aspirin and DHEA.


----------



## rt3

that helps, ask your prescriber about adding some CoQ10 and iron, with the additional iron showing up in your crit, it would be of use in your electron transport system. what strength of DHEA?


----------



## drifter

If one or the other, I think it's a bunch of todo about nothing. But health nuts may see something different.


----------



## rt3

tell us how you really feel drifter.


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> that helps, ask your prescriber about adding some CoQ10 and iron, with the additional iron showing up in your crit, it would be of use in your electron transport system. what strength of DHEA?



I don't understand the adding of iron.  When someone has polycythemia, whether polycythemia vera or secondary, the treatment protocol is to have no iron supplementation and go on a low iron diet.

Newly Old


----------



## drifter

Yeah, I shouldn't have posted anything since I really didn't known what you were talking about. It was the way the question was posed. Apologies to the General.


----------



## rt3

Mg is necessary for photosynthesis, and gives plants their green color. when your lawn is brown do you feed it Mg, no you give it iron. Why do plants and animals require iron for their energy cycle? The electron transport system --- which provides the energy at the cellular level. 70% or more of the total population on the planet is low on iron. High crit is not polycythemia, but can be used as one of the many clinical lab indications for a deeper look. High crit only means that the total number of blood cells have increased in the same volume size of lab sample taken for analysis. Since there are more blood cells per unit volume there is more measurable iron. 

I'm guessing that you are in a "younger" age group, perhaps in the 30-40 range. It is good that you have started to address low hormone issues earlier than later in life. This additional help gives your body a better chance of combating disease, aging and getting more out of the exercise you are doing. 

You should give some thought about adding more t3 to your regimen. Even desiccated thyroid would be beneficial. Remind you doctor that the laboratory TSH level has been lowered as of last summer by the WHO, as your prescribers may be using the older.


----------



## rt3

as suggested in another post in the health section, try to find colloidal iron, as it is absorbed far, far better and doesn't cause constipation.


----------



## kcvet

sooner or later


----------



## rt3

well they say a picture is worth a thousand words-- so here goes
whats your point?
the elevator will be down soon and the lady can get on
the guy in the wheelchair doesn't know if the lady will hold the elevator for him
the guy in the wheelchair doesn't care if the lady holds the elevator
the TV is broken and out for repair
the old stuff on the bulletin board needs to be taken down
the guy in the wheelchair is better off than someone in a wheelchair in Africa
am I there yet?
only 900 more words to go.


----------



## Knightofalbion

Can't believe this thread has had - at the present time - 159,000 views ...


----------



## SeaBreeze

They push ads for this everyday on the radio, wanting even young men over 30 to sign up for their program.  There's something for everyone out there, to each his own.


----------



## rt3

The sooner hormones are started the better they than can bring weak cell groups up to snuff, thus preventing future problems. Cenegenics is not the only game in town, they just advertise a lot, and yes they can help (as well as the many other BIHR prescribers). They may target man boobs, but they also treat woman (unless they have changed policy)

anyway it is highly unlikely that even 10% of the hits have read all 12 pages..


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> as suggested in another post in the health section, try to find colloidal iron, as it is absorbed far, far better and doesn't cause constipation.



I think I have made people confused.  Polycythemia has increased total body iron.  Hgb/ Hct and red cell number is increased.  MCH and MCHC are not low, nor is ferritin.  I would have to DECREASE iron intake, not increase it.

As I said, I have decreased my iron intake, and when I went to donate blood, I found that my Hgb and Hct are stable in the normal range.  They had not increased since my last donation.

That gets rid of the annoying side effect I was having on Cenegenics.   My thyroid function tests are normal.  I am not a believer in taking t3 if my TFT's are normal, nor do I have any hypothyroid sx's 

BTW, my age is not in the 30-40 range.  I am 65, but I must say that on Cenegenics, I now feel as though I am in the 30-40 year old range.

Newly Old


----------



## SeaBreeze

That makes sense Newly Old, I was wondering about that too, because I knew that eldery people had too high of an iron content in their systems rather than too low.  I have been using an "iron-free" multi vitamin/mineral supplement for years now, since I am menopausal.  I have also heard that the only way that men can lower iron counts that are too high, are through blood donations.


----------



## rt3

elderly people have too low iron, usually caused by intestinal bleeding.

Polycythemia Vera is a myeloproliferative disease that originates in the blood marrow when the red blood cells are being formed - it is usually a genetic cause/mutation. 
Testosterone therapy alone could never do this…. without genetic modifications… at least I doubt it.
in patients with iron overload - hemachromatosis - where crit is high - is actually the most common genetic disease in the world.  Yet, testosterone therapy in these individuals is safe and doesn’t cause the crit to go up in this case

anemia due to low iron is not the same as low iron in the electron transport system (cytochrome, NADH)Its polycethemia vera if the hematocrit gets above 52% ( A WHO Criteria). 


the standard for TFT was changed last year, are you going by the new one? if not you are low. (WHO criteria)
 the important issue is the release of iron from stores.  In terms of treating “Iron deficiency anemia,” you won’t see a real significant bump in hematocrit/hemoglobin clinically (or it will just be recurrent) until you give them Vitamin A - no matter how much iron you pump into them.


----------



## rt3

Newly Old--- did you smoke once upon a time, or still- there is a "double hit factor from this and the genetic stuff",  If you feel like 40 know after starting hormones, think how you would have felt it starting at 40?


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> elderly people have too low iron, usually caused by intestinal bleeding.
> 
> Polycythemia Vera is a myeloproliferative disease that originates in the blood marrow when the red blood cells are being formed - it is usually a genetic cause/mutation.
> Testosterone therapy alone could never do this…. without genetic modifications… at least I doubt it.
> in patients with iron overload - hemachromatosis - where crit is high - is actually the most common genetic disease in the world. Yet, testosterone therapy in these individuals is safe and doesn’t cause the crit to go up in this case
> 
> anemia due to low iron is not the same as low iron in the electron transport system (cytochrome, NADH)Its polycethemia vera if the hematocrit gets above 52% ( A WHO Criteria).
> 
> 
> the standard for TFT was changed last year, are you going by the new one? if not you are low. (WHO criteria)
> the important issue is the release of iron from stores. In terms of treating “Iron deficiency anemia,” you won’t see a real significant bump in hematocrit/hemoglobin clinically (or it will just be recurrent) until you give them Vitamin A - no matter how much iron you pump into them.



The doctor side of my has to jump in.  If a patient has iron deficiency anemia, a significant increase in hemogloblin/hematocrit occurs by 3 weeks of treatment.  Reticulocytosis becomes high (reticulocytes are the newly made blood cells being produced to fix the anemia).  

But to continue-

Low iron in the electron transport system is fun to talk about, but is irrelevant in the context of iron and anemia.  The iron content in mitochondria is not measurable in patients, and increasing iron intake in any form has not been shown to increase iron in mitochondria.  I assume you are making reference to the concept of free radicals and aging.  Again, this is irrelevent to the issue of iron and blood count.

Excess iron is harmful and can be a problem in older men.  That is why iron is not included in MVI's for older males.

If there is low iron due to gastrointestinal blood loss, it is not an IRON problem, it is a GASTROINTESINAL problem and in the elderly is CANCER of the colon until proven otherwise.

Tesoterone ABOSULUTELY CAN increase blood count in normal healthy males.

Polycythema Vera CAN be genetic, but this is again irreleveant.  ALL types of polycythemia call for a REUCTION in iron.

Hemachromatosis is NOT always genetic.  There are several no-genetic causes of hemachromatosis.  ALL require REDUCTION of iron.  Testosterone must NOT be given to a patient with hemochromatosis.  (Hemochroamatosis cause liver dysfunction and testosterone is contraindiocated if a patient has hepatic dysfunction)

But I am not here to argue medicine.  I originally posted to give my personal experience as I do the Cenegenics program from my  start in September 2013.  And to correct assumptions recently made about me-  I am 65, a non-smoker with no significant health problems.  You can read my original thread titled something like, My Experience with Cenegenics- for those who are interested" for more background, reasons for doing it, etc.)

My recent post was to say that all was well except my rising blood count on testosterone.  I donate monthy to keep it normal, but now it has stabilized.  I assume that is because I have reached a steady state at my replacement tesosterone levels.   Increased blood count (hemoglobin/hematocrit) is a known potential side effect of testosterone, no matter what anyone else has said, and I, like another who went onto testosterone, showed an increase in hgb and hct shortly after treatments began.  we both have now stablized.

I will continue to report my experiences on Cenegenics including the negatives if people are intersted.  That was the SOLE purpose of my recent post- to share a negative that I was experienceing.

I am not posting to argue.  There are next to no threads by someone reporting a real life experience on Cenegenics.  I hoped to give first person honest info if people were curious.

At this point, it seems like the thread is only attracting those who like to debate.  If there is no interest in my first person experience, I will jump off leaving this by saying that 7 months into the program, I have had excellent results, feel great, have great labs, inflammatory markers no longer elevated, growth hormone level up to normal (without taking growth hormone- as my doctor predicted would happen on the program), cholesterol from 220 to 140 with excellent profile.  The only major problems have been the temporary increased hemoglobin and the HIGH COST.

Newly Old


----------



## Knightofalbion

Knightofalbion said:


> Can't believe this thread has had - at the present time - 159,000 views ...



Over 196,000 views now .. 

What's going on?


----------



## rt3

knightofalbion -- when someone sees Cenegenics come up in a Google search the website that is very active with this topic comes up, so people click on it and the come here. when that happens the advertising comes up and the people who are doing this web site smile a lot. 

Newly old you didn't answer whether you smoke or not.

have a clinical pathologists that disagrees with you on several of the issues, however I am glad you responded

you material on test. is very outdated and not if considered applies mostly to the injectable form. (which you didn't mention)

regardless of what causes the anemia it is still there, your categorizing the disease conditions by terminologies that can be argued from either side. (this usually occurs because different schools of medicine have different lines of thought about the same topic, to say nothing of the fact that virtually any topic in medicine will be argued from the point of view of that persons specialty, and even again if their background is pharmacology, bioengineering -- you get the point )

loss of blood from intestinal sources may be called cancer, and provide a pathway for the clinician to investigate this as a possibility, but do to the vast numbers  involved doesn't mean anything in the testosterone discussion

confusion of two issues, here, prescribing of testosterone under the old outdated medical guidelines, and repeat that Cenegenics uses a very high amount of injectable test. as compared to other prescribers in the HRT industry.  the other issue is your outdated information on the role of electron transport. Because Labcorp, ARUP, and others do not provide lab results, doesn't begin to describe the situation. ARUP will build a test for anything you want, if you have the money. 

anyway it does no good to argue medicine, and now we have two doctors disagree (where have you heard that before?) on the role and such for iron, which brings me to THE POINT.

Your reporting of experience about Cenegenics has questionable credibility, to the readers, just because you are a doctor. 
My guess, from being on the inside, as to the reason no actual patients have written in this forum as you have volunteered to do-- is this-- it is simply that Cenegenics clientele is very exclusive, most are in the upper 0.5% income range, and have neither the time nor the desire to communicate with the common folk.

sort of like Michael Bloomberg promoting gun control, but can afford body guards, but won't answer any questions about the contradiction.  (I know its off topic)


----------



## rt3

probably should add here, that Cenegenics (since this is what the original post is about anyway) had changed pharmacies (you didn't think they built their own stuff did you?) changed 2 times in the last year. I suspect they also changed their target market, to include a larger, less specific (disposable income) group, because of changes in their advertisement at the start of this year, perhaps anticipating a larger production output from their source.  Hey --- good business practice.


----------



## rt3

almost forgot-- electron transport is very interesting to talk about-- its whats happin baby!


----------



## Newly Old

I am sorry.  I thought I had answered the smoking question.  I have never smoked.  I am 65 years old and a very active practicing physician.  I am every up to date on the medical literature, including the Endocrine Society's Most recent guidelines on diagnosing and treating low testosterone.

As fas as the business side of Cenegenics, yes, I am aware of change of pharmacies and the issues with the particular pharmacist who was the key supplier.  I am also aware of their business model, marketing, products and target market.  I do not like the fact that they developed and recently release a skin lotion to reverse aging skin.  Very expensive, of course.

I am sorry to repeat myself to those who know all of this from my 8 months of posting.  I am not here to debate the logic of age management, compare approaches, debate hormones, doses,  routes and intervals of injection, etc.  I am reporting my PERSONAL ongoing experience.  That means it is heavily OPINIONATED.  These are MY perceptions of what is happening to ME.   It is unbiased in terms of my having no interest, personal or financial, of how one uses my "diary."   "Credibility" is not my concern.  It is the reader's choice if they believe me.  I am clear what is my opinion and what is not.  At the outset, I gave my background, including my health history.  I said I am a physician.  If people do not believe physicians are honest, then I will not be credible to them.  But does being a physician MAKE me not credible??    In my posts, I have given my opinions and various aspects of my program.  I have complained about the costs of the program and the cost of the meds.  I have even given the cost of buying testosterone at the pharmacy.  I have talked of the reluctance of my internist to deal with testosterone issues.  I have told of my experiences with the diet.  My responses, physical, emotional, functional and economic.  But..

The one thing I have not discussed is this:  I started by saying that I would be posting a running report on my personal experience that would start after my first visit.  I gave my background.  I gave disclaimers.  I gave brutally honest information.  A lot has been criticism of the program.  I said from the outset that I was posting because I thought some might be interested at reading a first person account in real time warts and all.   And the surprise?   I am wasting my time arguing with people about electron transport, how polycythemia is NOT just a genetic disorder as was said, but is often a secondary condition, that iron should NOT be given when someone has a high hemoglobin- etc etc etc.

If you do not want to hear my real time progress reports, fine.   Challenge my CREDIBILITY because I am a physician??   I do not know who is reading or why.    I am doing this as a "reporter."    My goal is to give HONEST information about what I am doing, what is happening to my body and my life as a result and to give some personal feelings about what I am going through.  I did not tell of my rising hemoglobin to spark a debate on electron transport and how it affects mitochondria vs erythropoiesis.  I told it to tell how it make me feel uncomfortable knowing this was happening despite knowing it was not a health concern.

If you can find any other person who has posted a real time reporting of their experience on Cenegenics from the onset, then read it.  I am done debating peripheral nonsense.  

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

thanks for the synopsis, the brutally honest part, is on the heavy side--- most people are not in the loop part of physicians being sick (really human)-- its the "Physician heal thyself thing".  At this point the inquisitive reader would want to know, "if this guy is a doc. why doesn't he do it himself, since he is, (by his own admission) current on everything? what the reader doesn't know is that testosterone is a schedule III drug and you can't prescribe it for yourself. honest, probably, brutally that's a bit strong. 

I really don't care if you choose to debate or not, I will still be "reporting" just like you. Your "Well then (hands on hips)" attitude doesn't mean kakka to me. I have found so many errors in the "Journal of Endocrinology" doing meta analysis, I don't want to go into it either (gets boring).I am Not challenging your credibility simply giving the readers the other side of the story. Anyone getting medical attention should get several options. 

Todays medicine is a options decision tree that runs thru dollars on the one side and legal liability on the other. The answer is chosen more by default than "results dependent on initial conditions". Hormones effect every cell in the body, and are natural to the body, the very act of even calling them a drug is an abortion. Putting them in the same " lab results defines the practice" is trying to find somewhere to dispose of the abortion, (blame/game). 

If you don't want to review or talk energy production, or biochemical pathways, don't.


----------



## rt3

adding- "The only absolutes are there are no absolutes".  Nobody really gets to "own" the definitions except the FDA. Everybody "accepts" such and such guidelines to facilitate the process.


----------



## Ina

Newly Old & rt3, I know very little, next to nothing, about your subject of discussion, but I have found it interesting. I have no idea of who is right or wrong, but I'm learning a lot about what some of it means. That alone makes your debate worth much to the average lay person such as myself. Thank you both for putting a little clarification on the subject.


----------



## Newly Old

Let me review my situation.  That may be helpful.

I am a healthy 65 year old MD.  I spent the last 30 years being somewhat overweight, out of shape, feeling more easily fatigued in recent years.  I never smoked, rarely have a drink but loved sweets.  I have never had a health problem other than torn cartillage in my knee.  I am an older father, having one in high school and the other in college.  I work 6 days and 2 evenings a week.

I realized that I was getting more tired mid afternoon, and had less energy.  Since I am approaching an age where people often slow down, I decided I wanted to do everything I could within reason to maintain my health.  I chose Cenegenics because it has a comprehensive program that includes nutrition and supplements, medical, including hormone replacement when medically necessary, and exercise.  I had failed a lifetime of diets and attempts to exercise.  I felt "ready" to give one last chance to change to a healthy lifestyle.

I found no good alternatives.  I believe that testosterone therapy is appropriate for those whose testosterone is measured to be low by a reference lab and who has symptoms consistent with low testosterone.  Symptoms have to correct on the testosterone for me to be comfortable that the diagnosis is significant low T.  As a physician, I have researched the subject and am convinced that it must be done by a doctor with expertise in hormone optimization and who will monitor closely with lab tests.  Just taking testosterone is dangerous because it will alter the levels of other hormones and can have other adverse effects, such as making the blood to thick.

So, my first step was to get tested by my internist.  One test had me low.  Another at a reference lab had my T at the lowest level that was in the "normal" range.  That meant I was lower than 95% of men my age.  My internist would not put me on T because I was in the normal range.  I argued that it might not be normal for me.  I should at least be brought to the middle of the normal range to see if it corrected my symptoms.  He said he does not treat if it is in the normal range, even if I am lower than 95% of males my age.  I found that other internists also would not prescribe testosterone.  I also think most do not have the additional expertise in this area.

The only traditional MD's who I found to be doing hormone optimization were "concierge" doctors.  These are doctors who decided to drop all insurance plans and serve a smaller number of patients.  The patients are given more time, have 24 hr access to the doctor, but have to pay to join the practice.  It is common to have to pay $5000 for the entrance health examination.  Insurance covers nothing.

The next option would be "complimentary" doctors.  They say that they emphasize wellness, disease prevention and total health analysis.  That includes testosterone and often other hormones.  The ones who purchase their own radio talk shows often say that lab tests can be normal, yet miss the need for hormone supplementation.  But, they also say that they have to do a comprehensive evaluation with pages of lab tests including allergies, heavy metals, etc.  They say that the body often is at the wrong acidity and that the acidity can be changed by diet.  Many promote their own supplements saying that the other complementary doctors use inferior ones or ones that do not get absorbed well.  One doctor says that medicines that are in capsules that are from China (the emply capsules, not the meds) are no good because who knows what the capules are made of.

Complementaty doctors were not on my list of options because I believe a lot of what they are doing and prescribing is useless at best, and some of what they say about illnesses and the body is blatantly wrong.  Again, we are talking many thousands of dollars, ultimately can be more than the concierge MD.


Cenegenics is very much a business, in my opinion.  But my doctor is very well educated in the field, and was a higly regarded physician among his peers and patients prior to going into age management medicine.  Tesosterone is being prescribed and monitored.  The nutrition plan and exercise work for me because the testosterone allows for the workouts to have quicker noticable benefit, and the fat has melted away on the nutrition plan.  My diet is healthy, and I never crave sweets,

So, for me, the total package of the Cenegenics program has worked beyond my wildest expectations.  I think the cost is astronomical, and I have to buy my supplements through them at a substantial cost.  But I don't like the fact that they are such a "business" and have branced out into nutritional and supplement products in an inline store.  They even have a skin restorative treatment to make your face look younger.  I think it is over $200 for the kit.

But, it has worked for me and is the only one I trust medically because of the doctors and their training. I wish it weren't so EXPENSIVE or of traditional MD's would start doing this.

Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> ... But I don't like the fact that they are such a "business" and have branced out into nutritional and supplement products in an inline store.  They even have a skin restorative treatment to make your face look younger.  I think it is over $200 for the kit.



Shouldn't that tell you something about trusting this company? Yes, I realize you're happy with the results, but bottom-line, do you _reall_y trust them?

I mean, hell - I could get the same skin rejuvie-goo from a late-night infomercial for 4 E-Z payments of only $9.99 ... 

And WHY have they branched out into supplements and magic potions? Because that's where the money is. Not where the desire to help people live fuller, healthier lives is - where the _money_ is. 

You like doing business with people like that?


----------



## Newly Old

I trust a company like Cenegenics more than I trust the "complementary medicine" doctors who are currently the alternative.  Most important is I trust the doctor who is treating me.  I can give you details on the doctor, but I assure you he is first rate and studied age management medicine for years before joining Cenegenics.  He also did a great deal of research into their treatment guidelines and the science behind them.

From what the complementary doctors say on their talk shows, it is clear that I do not trust what they do at all.

Unfortunately, medicine has become  business drive.  Control of medicine was taken away from the doctors who now are now controlled by the insurance companies.  Hospitals have been merging, becoming health "systems" that heavily advertise to consumers.  Under Obamacare, hospitals are supposed to develop their own organization that has all the community doctors, specialists, labs, X-rays, ER's etc that provide 100% of the care their system.  Each system or accountability" organization will then sell their comprehensive network like an insurance company sells policies.  Private doctors are now being asked to sign up with the network that their hospital is developing.  All will be in a system that is required to monitor performance which may include things such as how long a patient is hospitalized for a given illness, or how much is spent on testing and medicines.   In my area, one medical center does not admit people with appendicitis into the hospital.  In most cases, the patient goes from the ER to the OR and is sent home 6 hours later.  In my opinion, medical care is being brought down to the lowest common denominator.  

How does this apply to my situation with Cenegenics?  Doctors who accept insurance are unable to bill and be paid for age management.  Insurance companies don't cover it, and doctors are prohibited by their contracts with the insurance company from charging the patient directly.  They can do a basic physical each year, but the expensive lab testing is not covered.  Nor are the follow-up visits and monitoring of treatment.  So that leaves only the physicians who decide to have a practice that takes no insurance.

A doctor cannot open a practice without accepting insurance unless it is a "concierge" practice that can attract enough patients willing to spend $5000 to join.  And insurance has poor or no coverage for "out of network" doctors.  So you have the concierge practices and the complementary practices which also cost a fortune, but their costs are for the extensive testing and treatment of debatable conditions such as the acidity of the body, toxins from the environment, hormone problems that cannot be detected by traditional MD's and the selling of the supplements, diet aids, treatments, etc.

If a doctor wants to practice age management, Cenegenics offers a comprehensive program that has in place their nutritionists, exercise physiologists,  testing for bone density, doppler carotid studies, cardiopulmonary function, etc, with the staff to do the tests.  They also have age management seminars that are open to all physicians (at a cost of thousands) and required for MD's who want to join.  So a doctor can practice age management and not have to see hundreds of patients to cover expenses.

So, the quality of the MD is what matters the most.  Cenegenics is a company out to make a profit.  That is where their products for the public come into play.  They also have to market to attract new patients.  

I do not like marketing.  The television and radio ads for hospitals and their services nauseate me.  A patient tells how he traveled from Europe to go to a particular doctor and hospital because they were tops with the Cyberknife. Where you are treated first makes all the difference if you have cancer.  That is the tagline for a major hospital for cancer treatment.  Yes, they are excellent, but they really push their advertising.  Little Jimmy thought he would never play soccer again, but our special operation saved his leg.  Patient after patient telling their sob stories and how it was that one special hospital that made all the difference.  Of course, it seems like every hospital is now advertising that they are THE hospital for you.

There are Urgent Care centers owned and run by national corporations.  You get seen quickly but that's it.  You cannot call the doctor if you have a problem during the night.  They do not have a doctor on call.  There is no emergency number, just instructions to call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room.  But they offer a fast food-like product.  They do not know your medical history, have no access to you medical records but will see you quickly.  You pay the bill, get the Rx and your done.  

Do I like that Cenegenics is going for profits by selling things?  No.  Do I like how health care has become a business, under the control of business people? No. 

But the bottom line is this.  My Cenegenics physician can provide me with excellent care within the structure of Cenegenics.  There are very few alternatives.

Newly old


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> Shouldn't that tell you something about trusting this company? Yes, I realize you're happy with the results, but bottom-line, do you _reall_y trust them?
> 
> I mean, hell - I could get the same skin rejuvie-goo from a late-night infomercial for 4 E-Z payments of only $9.99 ...
> 
> And WHY have they branched out into supplements and magic potions? Because that's where the money is. Not where the desire to help people live fuller, healthier lives is - where the _money_ is.
> 
> You like doing business with people like that?



By the way, to change the subject but just a bit.  When I call an insurance company to get approval to order and MRI, for example, I often ask to speak directly with a medical director.  But after many discussions, medical directors told me that all they can do is enter the symptoms and details into the computer program.  The program either approves or denies it.  They are not using their medical judgement to make any decisions.  They are merely entering data!   Sometimes they say that they will try to enter the information a different way to trick the computer into approving it.

That is medical care today.  

Newly old


----------



## rt3

whoa--super medicine--its not that complicated,

when compounding pharmacy momentum got going in the late 80's it was pushed in a large extent by hormone replacement therapy. this also came about as new studies emerged indicating that the cause of a lot of the problems were synthetic hormones. these two opportunities came together to the originator of Cenegenics (who can still be found in pictures standing next to his Bentley on the web)  and a few other folks, one of which is Cenegenics current supplier. As the market grew, and this "magic knowledge" filtered down thru the pharmacy schools, many smaller pharmacies started specialty shops in order to survive. About this time, late 90's, the big guys (Walgreens) got worried they were missing out and started offering this. today the name has been remolded to include old age management, in just about any combination of wording that can be marketable. This combination of specialties had the advantage of closing the big pharm drug companies out of the picture, as none of the key ingredients could be patented. 

Along with this came the Nurse Practioners, weight lose clinics  etc., and everything else to cut into the basic Cenegenics market, which is national, as opposed to locals.  The programs (which I'll get to in a moment) were creating many new prescribers, and suppliers cutting up the pie. Today there are many of these smaller prescribers, Nurse practioners, etc who are very knowledgeable and in some cases, I have personally seen, have more knowledge than Physicians in Hormone Therapy (they have less peer pressure to contend with, as Hormone Replacement therapy is not generally accepted in main stream medicine.)

With the new programs teaching age management, came the business angle of teaching the prescribers to set up a business practice.

Lets talk about Trust and what it really is. I'm not talking about some bullshit Franklin Covey Speed of Trust. Ever see the "Beautiful Mind " a movie about a guy by the name of Nash who got a Nobel prize for Economics. Basically he is talking about game theory and TRUST. Feel free to GOOGLE, as its a bit deep, but involves things like tit for tat, prisoners dilemma and forms the basic conditions by which we form associations. 

When someone uses the word TRUST ask what there vested interests are (motives)

Newly Old has given a very good description of Cenegenics modus operandi, and some of the problems he incurs getting "medicine" done today. There are many groups and institutions that show docs how to set a concierge practice, at a much lower cost than joining Cene. (just for the information).

How does this help the normal person who needs hormone therapy?  Not major medical stuff. Corporate medicine, is and will continue will go after the high ticket items, just to pay for their machines etc. So What?  Cenegenics still gets a volume discount from their suppliers they don't pass on. Its called "Economies of Scale". 
Even if they have a face cream that contains every rare ingredient on the face of the earth, --- its not made in the US, (probably) at a 100th of the cost in pick a Pacific Rim location. If you got the money and feel the product is worth it---that's a different story.


Hormones are not some recently developed super drug. Everyone past a certain age, (youth) shows a decline within some statistical parameter for that age group. Most if not all lab tests are based on that, and traditional prescribing. Do you want your hormones to be in that age group? (If your answer is yes, then you are in the group that accepts aging as a natural condition just before the horizontal one that becomes permanent and are not scared of dying. If your answer is No you want the same levels as a younger person, and  means that you are scared of missing all that living)  your choice.


----------



## SifuPhil

Fear of dying ... that's it, you hit it on the nose.

And if a person is afraid of dying then they have problems far too deep for a pill or potion to cure.

And, of course, they are sitting ducks for these conglomerates.


----------



## rt3

yes that is exactly it and to some degree you just did the same thing although not maliciously . hormones are not pills or cures (drugs) they are natural body stuff. (and plants). 

its when we let the conglomerates call them drugs we lose control, they gain control etc. etc.


----------



## Newly Old

Do you accept osteoporosis as a natural aging condition, or should it be treated so that older people are less likely to suffer debilitating fractures from simply tripping and falling to the floor?

Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> yes that is exactly it and to some degree you just did the same thing although not maliciously . hormones are not pills or cures (drugs) they are natural body stuff. (and plants).



Natural body stuff? 

I had some of that after my first trip to Mexico - luckily it went away on its own.

Hormones may indeed be "natural" (the non-synthetic ones, I mean), but they are still marketed as a "cure". And it's a cure for something that isn't even a disease, but they _have_ been successful in making people believe that it is.



> its when we let the conglomerates call them drugs we lose control, they gain control etc. etc.



You mean like with cannabis? Yes, I agree.



Newly Old said:


> Do you accept osteoporosis as a natural aging condition, or should it be treated so that older people are less likely to suffer debilitating fractures from simply tripping and falling to the floor?
> 
> Newly Old



Unfortunately you chose an example in which I have some experience. I've spent my life teaching people how NOT to trip and fall, thus obviating the need for magic beans to treat the condition.


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> Natural body stuff?
> 
> I had some of that after my first trip to Mexico - luckily it went away on its own.
> 
> Hormones may indeed be "natural" (the non-synthetic ones, I mean), but they are still marketed as a "cure". And it's a cure for something that isn't even a disease, but they _have_ been successful in making people believe that it is.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like with cannabis? Yes, I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately you chose an example in which I have some experience. I've spent my life teaching people how NOT to trip and fall, thus obviating the need for magic beans to treat the condition.



So I throw out the question to all the other recent debaters in this thread:


Do you consider osteoporosis a natural part of aging that people should accept as aging or should it be treated?

Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

I posed this question to everyone, but I am curious about your opinion since you talk about the concept of accepting "aging as a natural condition."

Do you consider osteoporosis a normal part of aging or do you think it should be treated?  

Newly Old.


----------



## rt3

the osteoporosis is covered in another topic in the health section- please review -- doubt if it will be repeated here.

the marketing for a cure is a very good topic for debate. currently the insurance companies will not cover hormones because they do not consider aging (as defined by a decrease in hormones) as a disease, disregarding the fact that low levels or lack are the root of the problem of other diseases.  Will entropy may be an accepted condition in physics it doesn't necessarily have to be that way in biological systems. If hormone therapy were considered a natural supplement, a good deal of disease states could be avoided that would reduce the overall cost of medicine for everyone.


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> the osteoporosis is covered in another topic in the health section- please review -- doubt if it will be repeated here.



I am not asking about the "topic" of osteoporosis.    I am asking you a specific  question.  

Do YOU consider osteoporosis part of normal aging that should be accepted, or do you think it should be treated.    

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

I don't consider aging a natural process, let alone bone deterioration. They are both diseases, and they should both be treated. The term cure isn't really relative in this context. If the progression of the deterioration either (and any other disease) can be slowed, changed etc. to enhance the quality of life it is a positive.


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> I don't consider aging a natural process, let alone bone deterioration. They are both diseases, and they should both be treated. The term cure isn't really relative in this context. If the progression of the deterioration either (and any other disease) can be slowed, changed etc. to enhance the quality of life it is a positive.



Current medical evidence shows that decreased testosterone is a major cause of osteoporosis in older men.  When T is found to be low, treatment with T is now considered part of the treatment for osteoporosis.

I have some osteoporosis which has been helped by my testosterone therapy.  That is the point of Cenegenic's use of testosterone in men with low T.   Cenegenics is not because we fear dying or we do not accept the natural course of aging.   Aging often includes low testosterone as well which is responsible for many things which people are calling the normal aging process.  Well, the aging process includes body deterioration such as osteoporosis.  Low testosterone is a cause of a lot of it and treatment with testosterone helps restore a lot of that loss, including bone density.  Testosterone for those with low T corrects a lot of the deterioration.  That is why so many of us say that we feel 20 years younger.  A lot of the deterioration of aging is corrected.

Osteoporosis is one of the many parts of the aging process that is caused, in part, by low testosterone.  If people believe that osteoporosis should be treated, then so should other parts of the body that have suffered deterioration with low testosterone.

That is the point of Cenegenics.  To say we do it because we don't accept aging or we fear dying is blatantly incorrect.  Much of aging is body deterioration, such as osteoporosis which can be helped by correcting low T.  Cenegenics is to correct and preserve function and the active life.  It is not to prolong life.  It is not to make us look better.  It is to make us feel better.  I want to die healthy, not debilitated.  As you said, if the progression of the deterioration can be slowed or changed to enhance the quality of life, it is positive.

I hope others reading this understand testosterone optimization better because it works.   Cenegenics does a lot of things for money that I do not like.  But it has provided a system where doctors can practice high quality age management- for the few who can afford it.

It is not necessary to do the Cenegenics program to have the benefits of T optimization.  If you can find a reputable MD who can do it cheaper, that works. 

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

I have covered the use of test (as well as K2) in this forum under sever different posts for the last 3 months for use in bone stuff, but welcome aboard.


----------



## rt3

don't need a lab test to know test is low. anyone over 30 is low, and even some younger
applies to both men and women (Test works better in women for dry woo-hoo than e2 in regards to the other benefits you mention)
doesn't need to be an MD


----------



## rt3

Cene. has changed marketing strategy over the 5 years I have been aware of them. Initially, and up thru 2012-earyl 2013 most of their scripts went out to help man boobs. the test. went out with HCG, thyroid, anastrozole or DIM, and most important, a change in diet/exercise. 
the acceptance of test. in bone stuff is only about the last 2 years, and about the last year for women.


----------



## SifuPhil

rt3 said:


> ... Initially, and up thru 2012-earyl 2013 most of their scripts went out to help man boobs. ...



At _their_ prices I'd rather invest in one of these ...


----------



## rt3

Funny


----------



## Newly Old

You are correct that you don't need a lab test to know T is low.  The problem is you need an MD to prescribe and monitor treatment.  

Now where can I go to get me a set of those man-boobs?  (I know, just look in the mirror.)

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

talking costs for a moment
anyone with a DEA number can prescribe test. Nurse pract, RN,s in those practices set up for it, they do the monitoring also  less expensive

compared to HGH at about $700 a month for the low dose, test. is pretty cheap. unless your a movie star out of range for most users.  Lets look into those proteins which cause or facilitate the production of HGH in the body. Something like Semoralin (sp) or something we can do exclusive, not having outside CNUS borders. 

injectable test. comes from generic manufactures, like Watson, pretty cheap, then the prescriber adjusts the dose, writes the script off to the pharmacy. pharmacy then repacks it etc.

but what if we want to give the impression that we have a unique product, exclusive lets say to, to the rest of our marketing line, which may include services also. The pharmacy can't make the test. from powder because they need expensive facilities. Making it from powder would give a considerable margin, which could be rebated in some fashion back to the prescribers. kickbacks are illegal, so some other means would be needed. Perhaps the overall contract price-- anyway. The next problem is the strength cannot be the same as any commercial product, small task, simply change the strength up or down, so no commercial product is duplicated. Now for the rest of the picture. Since creams can be made by any compounding pharmacy, and the user would probably run down the street to get it at a much lower price, we have to give the impression the injectable form is the best, requiring monitoring, and add a list of exclusives etc.  

within the usable dosage range, of test. , the creams work fine, especially the liposomal types and a 3 month supply can be had for about $70. The use of trits. or troches works great, by passing liver, just a little more.


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> talking costs for a moment
> anyone with a DEA number can prescribe test. Nurse pract, RN,s in those practices set up for it, they do the monitoring also  less expensive.



In summary, you are incorrect.

It is not the cost, or the ease of administration of testosterone that is the issue.  A DEA license does not permit a doctor to prescribe unless strict medical and legal procedures are followed.

Yes, a DEA license CAN prescribe testosterone.  They can also prescribe oxycontin, Vicodin and growth hormone.   And they CAN lose their license, face professional misconduct charges, hefty fines and jail time.  I personally know of one doctor in the area who was nailed for prescribing testosterone without an adequate history and physical exam.

There are also pain management doctors where you can get oxycontin, Vicodin and Percocet on demand.

You can also buy testosterone illegally without a prescription.  But finding a doctor to write a prescription does not mean you have an ethical, knowledgable or law abiding doctor.  And, as a physician, I will continue to say that testosterone is not safe it not prescribed by someone with expertise in the area who diagnoses, treats, and monitors correctly.

I am talking about ethical doctors with expertise in the area of age management.  If an internist (or other MD) accepts insurance, they cannot practice age management legally.  Testosterone treatment for age management is not covered by insurance.  They are prohibited from providing a non covered service and having the patient pay directly.

The doctors who do not take insurance are the concierge MD's who charge premium prices, or doctors who are unable to join insurance plans ( usually because if prior medical misconduct, license suspensions, etc)

As for NP's, in most states they can prescribe testosterone, but not all.  I know of no NP's in New York area that are in independent practice and practice age management.  And again, if they accept insurance, they cannot do age management.

(RN's cannot prescribe controlled substances.)

BTW, I am an MD and I have an unrestricted DEA license.  I prescribe testosterone to certain patients with an endocrine abnormality that causes testicular failure.  I cannot and do not prescribe for age management.  

If it was so easy to find reputable well trained MD's or RN's who practice age management, I would not need to pay for Cenegenics.

I am an MD in practice for over 25 years, on staff at the major medical centers, and know the majority of the available specialists in the region.  I have personal contact with numerous other doctors I have asked about age management doctors they might know.  I am not able to find any other than concierge MD's, Cenegenics or the like, or "fringe" complementary doctors who can be more expensive than concierge MD's. I know of no NP's who are reputable and practice age management.

If you know of people in the New York region, tell me who they are.  I will gladly use them.

In New York, every testosterone prescription must be reported to the NYS Prescription Monitoring Program.  The patients and doctors are both tracked.  If I am going to prescribe a controlled substance, I must first register and log onto the website and review that patient's prescription history.  This review is given an ID number and I must do this for every controlled substance prescription I write.  

To say it is simple and inexpensive to get testosterone treatment and management is just not true in the real world.

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

wow, say its wrong first then don't give examples, great post. In fact you are wrong and I will itemize.

Seeing several hundred scripts a day for hormones from all over the US, gives me much more insight into what is legal than your limited knowledge of the process. Why you have brought up narcotics is beyond, me, but you forget that a large part of the pharmacists job is to verify the legality of the script.

RNs can write if they have a DEA. 
cost, and dosage form are very much the issue, and in some cases the only issue, in all cases it is assumed that diet and exercise are good, hormone replacement therapy is not a cure for a specific disease state.
you have only included test, and not the other 19 or so other hormones in Hormone Replacement Therapy. --(its the only one your familiar with, your still selling Cene.) If Cene. is choosing to market as age management only, they are only limiting themselves. 

the dosages test. used in old people and even young are totally different than body building, and a great deal of confusion exists on this site about the difference.

I can give you a list of 100 NP that are reputable and in some cases know more about it than most MDs  across the US.

In New York contact Physioage, they are less expensive than Cene, but just as exclusive.

It is simple and inexpensive to get test. (If you are living in New York, you have no idea what the real world is.)

Docs don't join Cene because it costs to much, plain a simple (and insurance doesn't cover), Hormone replacement therapy is much broader than just Age management, 

non use of test. in women for hair loss, and bone density in women and men is a waste, shame, and what are you afraid of?

all states require a month end computer download of schedules drugs, which is cross referenced for abuse an shoppers. 

New York is one of the few states dumb enough to put HCG and HGH on schedule.


----------



## rt3

Should add that my DEA license is unrestricted also (what the hell that means to hormone replacement therapy is beyond me)


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> Should add that my DEA license is unrestricted also (what the hell that means to hormone replacement therapy is beyond me)



What it means is this:

In New York State, testosterone is a Schedule II controlled substance.  The prescriber must look up the patient in the NYS Prescription Monitoring Program and the testosterone prescription must be reported to the PMP where it is added to that patient's (and doctor's) database.

You said that anyone with an unrestricted DEA license can prescribe testosterone as though it is as simple as "anyone" writing the script.  It is TIGHTLY regulated and must be prescribed under appropriate circumstances.  

In New York State, RN's cannot write prescriptions

Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

rt3 said:


> wow, say its wrong first then don't give examples, great post. In fact you are wrong and I will itemize.
> 
> >>> but you forget that a large part of the pharmacists job is to verify the legality of the script.<<<
> 
> How does the pharmacist verify that the patient had an adequate history, examination and testing before the prescription was written?
> 
> The issue has not been illegally written prescriptions, it is the issue of doctors writing prescriptions for testosterone or other schedule II drugs without doing the appropriate evaluation.  They are charged and prosecuted for professional misconduct.
> 
> Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

>>>Seeing several hundred scripts a day for hormones from all over the US, gives me much more insight into what is legal than your limited knowledge of the process.<<<

I was very clear that I was talking about New York State.  I am VERY familiar with the process in New York State.

You talk as if you are totally unaware of the  New York State PMP Registry.  Do you have a New York State Health Commerce account?  If not, you cannot even access the PMP Registry.

Newly Old


----------



## rt3

thats why you put test in with the other schedule IIs New York accounts for a really small part of the hormone replacement market, (back to that and not test)

It is clear that your knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is extremely limited, on the prescribing side, the effect side, and the manufacturer side. 

The readers are not really interested in what goes on in New York, unlike Las Vegas what goes on there doesn't stay there, it gets pushed off on the rest of the states. 

The readers are interested in Cenegenics, and I suspect would like more information on Hormone Replacement, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on normal people using them as opposed to athletes.


----------



## Newly Old

>>>In New York contact Physioage, they are less expensive than Cene, but just as exclusive.<<<

Thanks for the tip.  I spoke with them and to join would only cost me about $4500, instead of $5000 for Cenegenics.

Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

>>>The readers are interested in Cenegenics, and I suspect would like more information on Hormone Replacement, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on normal people using them as opposed to athletes.[/QUOTE]<<<

That is why my posting started as MY personal experience as an ongoing Cenegenics patient.  If you read my posts from September, you will see that my sole desire was to give a first hand account from someone who is actually in the program.

For people interested in Cenegenics, perhaps some are interested in what it is REALLY like, what the diet FEELS LIKE reported first hand,  what receiving testosterone FEELS LIKE first hand, what it FEELS LIKE first hand when the body changes or when blood parameters become off due to treatment.

I have given very accurate and detailed accounts from my personal experience.

I might be way off base on this, but I suspect that if "The readers are interested in Cenegenics," my first person account might interest them.

Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

>>>It is clear that your knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is extremely limited, on the prescribing side, the effect side, and the manufacturer side. <<<

Now there you go, again!  

I have said that my knowledge of hormone replacement therapy is limited to what I am experiencing as a patient.  Everyone can ignore the rest of this post because it is a reply to your claim that I have extremely limited knowledge of hormone replacement on the prescribing side and the effect side.  That is a broad statement, not specific to age management.

I care for patients from birth through 21.  I am board certified.  I have over 30 years experience.  I trained under some of the top world renowned endocrinologists.  I participated in a lot of the research on the hormonal control of puberty that has been the source of information for textbooks.  You may have read some of them, or some of the research articles.  I have treated countless patients for testosterone, growth hormone, ADH, hypothalamic, pituitary, adrenal, ovarian and testicular disorders.  My experience is extensive.  I have treated conditions that you have never heard of.  I have had successful outcomes in patients with endoctinopathies that have not been previously reported because until my patient, patients with the condition were thought to be incurable.

I continue to work in consultation with top university pediatric endocrinologists and currently have several patients I am treating with testosterone for Klinefelters and transgender.  

You READ about testosterone.  You look at PRESCRIPTIONS.  I diagnose real live people.  I treat real live people.  

You say I have limited knowledge of the effects of testosterone?  I follow the patients from diagnosis until adulthood and manage their testosterone treatments.  They tell me first hand what effects they are having, and what problems.  YOU have learned effects from what you READ.  I learn from the REAL people having the effects, and many are things that are NOT in the textbooks or journals you read.  I learn about things the pediatric endocrinologist  have not known, because I have a close and ongoing doctor patient relationship.  Teenagers will discuss matters of sexuality, ****** functioning and dysfunction, moods and other very private and sensitive issues with a trusted physician which they will never reveal to anyone else.

I do not know age management.  But to speculate on my overall knowledge...correction... to blatantly assert that I have very limited knowledge proves that you consider some of you wild and incorrect assertions as fact.

I have no need to defend my expertise.  I just think it is important for those reading your posts to realize how your blustery bravado and claims to knowledge is camouflaging your lack of real knowledge and experience.

I am done with you.  I too busy taking care of real patients with real illnesses who I provide with excellent state-of-the-art care to waste time correcting each bit of misinformation you throw out there, no matter how seriously or dangerously wrong it is.

I joined Seniors Forum 8 months ago to share my first person experience with Cenegenics for those who wanted to know what it is REALLY like.  I think I have given and accurate account, so I will no longer be on the forum, reading or posting.

Enjoy your life on Seniors Forum, rt3.     And to those who wanted honest information about Cenegenics, I hope you found it useful.

Newly Old, signing off.


----------



## Meanderer

I Just finished reading *every* post....WOW!   When will the book & movie come out???


----------



## rt3

already has, you just read the disclaimer


----------



## SifuPhil

Meanderer said:


> I Just finished reading *every* post....WOW!   When will the book & movie come out???



I just finished the book ...


----------



## Josey

Thank you for this.  I had an appointment with Longevity and vitality and spoke with the doctor.  The price was mentioned which I was willing to pay because I need to get my thyroid, addrenals, and hormones in sync.  On further research I found and what put me off is that you have to continue with the program to receive your meds or supplements.  If you decide to stop going to them you're back where you started.  

I would like the extensive comprehensive testing and I do want to make changes now because it is now or never but I want to know what the supplements, meds are and I want to be able to purchase these on my own if I choose.  The lock in to their meds and continued profits does not sit well with me.


----------



## Denise1952

I hadn't heard of cenegenics Phil, probably because I don't watch cable/satellite.  For those that can afford it, I imagine it will sell like hot-cakes.  I don't have the money, and if I did, I can't tell you I wouldn't look into it at least.  It's almost as if the "push" was toward poor health over the time I've grown up in, and now, they are offering "fixes" for it all.  I'm ok with better choices at the market (the best I can make without growing it all myself, and even then, what's in that dirt anyway).  I also get out every day now, for a walk/hike.  I hope to carry that over into Winter, or if I'm really lucky, live in a more moderate climate (the Oregon Coast).

Can't help but think of Sophia on Golden Girls, in the episode where Rose is in the hospital and dreams of all the girls having their heads frozen til they could get new bodies:


----------



## Mirabilis

I don't see anything wrong with this.  If I can afford it, it would not hurt.  I would prefer this to plastic surgery.  I do have to say that I think your idea of a third-world country is stereotypical.  I was born in what is considered to be a third-world country and although they are not politically aligned with the US, they do care about their health and well being just like anyone else.  There are rich people, there are poor people, there are people who eat well-balanced, healthy diets and live to be 100+.


----------



## rt3

Josey -- use the information they provide to get on the road, after you have taken the hormones and used the supplements, believe me, you will become very aware low doses, (over doses rarely occur) and the interacting effects. The hormones and other prescriptions can be compounded by many outside pharmacies simply take them the bottle. As you use the supplements you will see differences, and continue or not. The real cost of Cenegenics, Physioage, and some others like them, is paying for them to do the things you don't want to keep track of. If you do want to spend the time, ask questions etc. the same effects are within the financial range of most everyone.


----------



## Josey

*Just don't want to hurt Soo much*

Some heated emotions here. Thanks for all your inputs. Yes, of course I'd like to stay and look young but mostly, I want to stop the pain of aging. Thanks to good genetics, people don't believe I'm 62 but boy do I feel it. I have been taking bio identical hormones, PTE not HGH for over 8 years.  I had a thyroid adrenal hormone crash at 56 and my doctor put me on numerous meds and supplements synthroid , nature thyroid, dhea, dim, iodine, cymbalta, avandament, isocort   I questioned the avandament  for high blood sugar, and cymbalta, therapeutic dose used as a neurotransmitter   My doctor wasn't concerned but then they took avandament off the market as a dangerous drug. The manufacturer stopped making isocort a supplement for addrenals and there went my energy. My doctor prescribed hydrocortisone for all her patients using isocort but I guess she didn't read my chart because warnings state not to use f u have high blood sugar

so I was looking for a physician who would do the numerous tests to try to get on track. In the last two years I've had osteo arthritis in both hands , now it's in my hips. I have no energy and have to take a nap at 2pm, can't sleep at night with hip pain and my A.D.D. Is in full swing. I'm addicted to sugars, need to lose 15 lbs. increase my exercise regime to 5 days from 3 days and eat better. 

I just don't want to buy into a scam. Do you think the term Cenegenics is copywriter and only those who have gone through a program can use it or is it a general term by anyone who takes numerous tests and prescribes hormone replacement and supplements. 

To "Going down swinging". Can you share where u started at $1000 instead of $4000
Please only post helpful comment.  Any Third world comments need to go on another board. 

Quote:  The more dirt you shovel, the less ground you stand on


----------



## Denise1952

I suppose it's because I don't have money to spend on expensive "fixes", if they do indeed, fix, but I am doing amazingly well with the best nutrition I can get my hands on at the store, and I do use gelatin now thanks to a kind person that shared their story with me.  I also stay active, and I realize some cannot be active.  I have a brother who is paralyzed from the chest down.  So I know about "immobility".  Poor health doesn't usually happen overnight, so I can't expect regaining health to happen any faster.  When I start seeing the small changes, like losing inches, as well as pounds, when I feel less aching joints, or headaches, I just know I am on the right track.

I'm not telling anyone not to go for something like this, everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but I'm not staying quiet about my progress, and I'm living on very, little here financially. This non-sedentary, wise, grocery choices is working for me.  I also eat from all the basic 5, and if I want a piece of pie, or anything else I have it.  Don't anyone tell me I have good genes either because my mother was a potato shape, although small-boned like me.  My grandmother, and all my Aunts were heavy, so was my dad's side.


----------



## Elyzabeth

: )


----------



## dranum786

I am victom of cenegenics. They are big SCAM. They charge $ 5000 for initial evaluation and 12-1500$ every month. They send supplements and hormones/ probably steroids and I had to take about 30 pills daily. I was feeling nauseaous and sick. I lost my sleep since I had to wake up twice in the night to urinate. I started aches and pains all over body. Absolutely worthless. I am warning you to stay away from from cheaters.


----------



## Newly Old

dranum786 said:


> I am victom of cenegenics. They are big SCAM. They charge $ 5000 for initial evaluation and 12-1500$ every month. They send supplements and hormones/ probably steroids and I had to take about 30 pills daily. I was feeling nauseaous and sick. I lost my sleep since I had to wake up twice in the night to urinate. I started aches and pains all over body. Absolutely worthless. I am warning you to stay away from from cheaters.



Your experience is very different from mine.       What your saying does not sound credible.  If you are telling the truth, you should be able to easily answer these questions.  Did they do blood tests?  Where did you go to get the tests?   What was done at the initial $5000 evaluation?  What was the procedure for you to get your supplements?   And, what did the bottles that contained the pills look like, and describe what the pills looked like.

I think this is all made up.  But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for you answers to these basic questions which will tell me if you really did the program.

>>>They send supplements and hormones/probably steroids<<<

"probably steroids?"  If you are prescribed steroids, the bottle is clearly labeled "testosterone."  

I started Cenegenics last September and it has worked wonders.  I am sure some do not like Cenegenics, especially the cost, but your post sounds like you have never been on Cenegenics.

You can prove you are truthful by answering those questions.  Anybody on Cenegenics could easily answer them.

Maybe you are truthful.  Maybe the "SCAM" is you! 

Newly old


----------



## Newly Old

Dear dranum786-

I see you just joined the Senior Forums and this is your first post.  I am confused why you would join to post a fraudulent claim about Cenegenics.  I have no connection to them.  I had joined the forum and posted my experience with Cenegenics  with real time posts of my experience so that people could have a first hand account.  I saw Senior Forums as a place where honest people shared information and opinions.

Your comments convince me that you have never been a Cenegenics client/patient.  Now, people who look to Senior Forums for honest comments will be faced with falsified information, a big kick in the butt to the credibility of Senior Forums.

You can prove me wrong when you answer the simple questions that any Cenegenics client would know.  If, as I suspect, you are a fraud, I will learn if Senior Forums is moderated to remove fraudulent posts.   

It would be a shame if you are a fraud and a fraudulent post is allowed to remain making Senior Forums just another place that you cannot trust for reliable information.  I hope this is not the case.  I joined hoping I would be in an honest and trusting community.

Newly Old


----------



## Newly Old

dranum786 said:


> I am victom of cenegenics. They are big SCAM. They charge $ 5000 for initial evaluation and 12-1500$ every month. They send supplements and hormones/ probably steroids and I had to take about 30 pills daily. I was feeling nauseaous and sick. I lost my sleep since I had to wake up twice in the night to urinate. I started aches and pains all over body. Absolutely worthless. I am warning you to stay away from from cheaters.



For those who want more honest info, my Cenegenics supplements are fish oil- 4 pills/day, vitamin D, magnesium orotate, a multivitamin, 1 baby aspirin, DHEA, and melatonin if needed for sleep (almost never).   I give my self testosterone shots weekly which brought my T level from low to normal range.  That is up to 10 pills a day, but nowhere near thirty.    And the testosterone is labeled just as any other prescription medicine, with strength and dose instructions.  

Cenegenics is very expensive and not for everyone.  It has close medical monitoring, and is based on sound medical science.  Many may say it is way overpriced, but it has done wonders for my health and quality of life.

Newly Old


----------



## debora1977

Not good to hear that this diet does not fit all. 
How to check whether it is suitable for me?


----------



## Newly Old

debora1977 said:


> Not good to hear that this diet does not fit all.
> How to check whether it is suitable for me?



Cenegenics has 3 main parts.  The diet is a well planned healthy low carb diet.  There are tips about eating organic, and food choices but it is not anything unique.  It works because people committed enough to pay lots of money are more likely to throw themselves into it 100%

The second part is exercise.  Cenegenics helps a lot here because if you are low on testosterone, replacement is given that raises you to normal levels.  With normal levels, you have much more energy and you see results of exercise quickly.

The third part is what I do not think can be safely done without an expert doctor or the Cenegenics doctor.  that is hormone optimization and balancing the right supplements.  Some argue that anyone can prescribe testosterone, but I believe the close monitoring by a physician with periodic blood tests is necessary for safety.

A healthy low carb diet can be done without Cenegenics.  The trick is staying with it.

Newly Old


----------



## dranum786

*Cenegenics Fraud, scam, stay away from CROOKS*

Yes, they did blood tests. I did not go anywhere, lady called me and scheduled appointment at my home to draw blood. Blood was drawn 3 weeks before my appointment at the center. When I went for appointment there was 'one man show'. One lady did everything. She started bone scan. She also did carotid artery ultrasound. Then she did different excercises and last excercis was on bicycle, which was monitoring my heart beat also. Then they did brain test on computer. She also showed me video for diet. and she gave me book for low carb diet and high fat diet (ANY NUTRITION COUNSELOR CAN DO THAT OR EVEN YOU CAN GOOGLE IT). Then They gave me lunch and had me rest for an hour. Then doctor saw me. he had all my lab reports. All were normal but he was exagerrating everything and trying me scar me, to make value of his consult and my $5000. I took all those tests to two other physicians and they were all fine. At the end of the day, they charged again $1200 for monthly charges, so basically it was $6200 for that visit. Then they shipped me supplements. One packet contained 8 pills, named multivitamins, I had to take twice daily. One bottle has Co Q10 2 pills twice daily, Fish oil two humongous pills, twice daily, magnesium sulphate pillls, Melatonins, DHEA, testosterone and few other pills. Altogether 30 a day. 

Any physician with primary care can do that. Regular nutritinist and excercise counseller can advice you same or better. This is absolutely worthless. I think you are one of their emplyee of Cenegenics, thats why you are fighting for them. these people should be ashammed and incarcerated. I am warning every one, don't loose your hard earned money on these fraudulent people. If you have extra money, spend on charity instead of these crooks. You will only realise once you already loose $30K. I want to share my experience to prevent you from fraud, rest is up to you. Smart people learn from others experience, and others even don't learn from their own experience. SO BETTER LEARN FROM MY EXPERIENCE. 





Newly Old said:


> Your experience is very different from mine. What your saying does not sound credible. If you are telling the truth, you should be able to easily answer these questions. Did they do blood tests? Where did you go to get the tests? What was done at the initial $5000 evaluation? What was the procedure for you to get your supplements? And, what did the bottles that contained the pills look like, and describe what the pills looked like.
> 
> I think this is all made up. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for you answers to these basic questions which will tell me if you really did the program.
> 
> >>>They send supplements and hormones/probably steroids<<<
> 
> "probably steroids?" If you are prescribed steroids, the bottle is clearly labeled "testosterone."
> 
> I started Cenegenics last September and it has worked wonders. I am sure some do not like Cenegenics, especially the cost, but your post sounds like you have never been on Cenegenics.
> 
> You can prove you are truthful by answering those questions. Anybody on Cenegenics could easily answer them.
> 
> Maybe you are truthful. Maybe the "SCAM" is you!
> 
> Newly old


----------



## Bettyann

I finally got around to reading about this post, even though it was started two years ago!  Anyway, I had never heard of cenegenics before...but I would have had the tendency to react with 'no way, Jose' '...but see that would be "ME".... '
What I believe is that whatever you truly BELIEVE will work for you WILL... thing is, many people are not aware of some of their conscious as well as subconscious beliefs.
IT IS "done unto you according to your beliefs" ...that is for the religious folks. For those into spirituality or metaphysics its all about the Law of Attraction knowing that what you BELIEVE is what you attract. You cannot fool your belief system by saying pretty words and phrases.
First: a person needs to ask themselves: WHY is it that I 'need' this cenegenics system? If you strongly believe that you will lose a lot of capability and function as you age...you will. 
HOPING that Cenegenics will 'work' for you is NOT the same as your belief system...however, temporary 'progress' might be 'real' for you if you honestly and truly believe it will.... 
The people who 100% believe this process will work WILL see good results. Its just really important to actually realize that you can't just 'hope' or have any doubts... 
Kinda like 'faith healers' ...they DO work for some...and do not for others. If its all based on temporary high emotions...then no, it won't.
'


----------



## Ina

Bettyann, I think you summed it up very well.:cool1:


----------



## bigdog1925

*Scam*

Yea seriously. What a scam. Just like healthcare!!!!





sifuphil said:


> *cenegenics.com*
> 
> if you watch any television at all, chances are good that you've seen a cenegenics commercial in the last few months. They've been on a massive advertising campaign to get new members into their program, and after checking out their site, downloading their brochure and doing some fact-checking i just wondered if anyone else had checked them out.
> 
> Basically they are an "aging management" business (not an "anti-aging" one, as has sometimes been claimed). Their goal is to provide concierge service to members through extensive medical testing, nutritional and exercise prescriptions and, most controversially, the administration of steroidal / hormonal compounds.
> 
> Their theory is that as we age we may make rudimentary attempts at maintaining health, but until now we've only gone about it in a slip-shod manner. They offer to take over the reigns and guide you through a regimen that they claim has proven successful in re-vitalizing their senior members.
> 
> This is only a "scratching-the-surface" attempt at explaining what they're all about, so if you're interested visit their website, download their brochure (pdf format) and decide for yourself.
> 
> One thing that is not mentioned anywhere is the price. My research turned up a few numbers: Approx. $4,000 for the initial rounds of testing (for which you have to visit one of their centers for 2 or 3 days), followed by monthly maintenance costs (prescriptions, testing, etc.) of around $1,000-$1,500. It's not cheap, certainly, and it might explain why so many of their members are doctors, but what price health?


----------



## chic

nwlady said:


> I suppose it's because I don't have money to spend on expensive "fixes", if they do indeed, fix, but I am doing amazingly well with the best nutrition I can get my hands on at the store, and I do use gelatin now thanks to a kind person that shared their story with me. I also stay active, and I realize some cannot be active. I have a brother who is paralyzed from the chest down. So I know about "immobility". Poor health doesn't usually happen overnight, so I can't expect regaining health to happen any faster. When I start seeing the small changes, like losing inches, as well as pounds, when I feel less aching joints, or headaches, I just know I am on the right track.
> 
> I'm not telling anyone not to go for something like this, everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but I'm not staying quiet about my progress, and I'm living on very, little here financially. This non-sedentary, wise, grocery choices is working for me. I also eat from all the basic 5, and if I want a piece of pie, or anything else I have it. Don't anyone tell me I have good genes either because my mother was a potato shape, although small-boned like me. My grandmother, and all my Aunts were heavy, so was my dad's side.



Good ideas, all. I'd like to add, I find eating organic food is worth the extra expense but it's nothing compared to the cost of cenegenics. Eliminating white sugar should be a must for most of us. Exercise is super important as well as going for a walk everyday. Tai Chi is very beneficial and is a good form of exercise for those in pain or who lack the energy for more strenuous types of exercise.

Mediatation is extremely beneficial and doesn't cost a cent. Practising the relaxation response has helped me enormously. It will lower your blood pressure if nothing else but can also assist in digestion and pain management.

Eating organic food coupled with daily walks and gentle exercise has helped my 80+ year old parent to reverse heart disease, avoid surgery and enjoy more activity and the quality of living. 

I'm interested in cenegenics but I think it's a lot of money and I'm uneasy about bioidentical hormones. Until something better comes along I'll continue my own path to youth, health, and longevity.


----------



## Waiting For God

Hello All. I just joined this forum. I have been recently reading both the information on independent sites and this thread about cenegenics and I guess I am skeptical at heart.  Having said that, I do believe Science/Technology is growing exponentially. It is said that the human who is going to live to 130 is being born "today". Will this be true? Who knows. I have lived long enough to learn that as anything is possible it is just that "possible" not guaranteed. 

Hormone therapy is very enticing and sounds promising but Nature makes it come with a catch. The catch is the possible side effects both physical and mental.  Almost like being handed free tickets to a ball game but then being informed you are sitting in the last row approximately 1500 ft. above home plate. The cost of cenegetics is expensive with some unnecessary procedures that can be performed on your own or elsewhere.

Sometimes I ask myself why the hell do I want to stay here any longer than God has planned for me.  The birth of my 3 children showed me how beautiful this place can be but days like 9/11 showed me how much hurt one human can possibly feel.  I think we all have an innate motive to prolong or "fight" the inevitable.  I always found it so fascinating when I was young how I became so absorbed with the minutia of the day while remaining completely oblivious to what IS guaranteed in this life and that's death.  I apologize for rambling.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when the time comes I want to truly say I really LIVED. Lived everyday to its fullest in order to honor those who could not or even sacrificed their own.  I look at it this way, if life is like driving a car down a highway that will eventually end and someone gave you an opportunity after driving many miles to get new tires, new paint job, tune-up, etc. I would take it. Simply because the road is going to end anyway.  I might as well enjoy the rest of the trip in a nice car!


----------



## SifuPhil

Waiting For God said:


> ...  I look at it this way, if life is like driving a car down a highway that will eventually end and someone gave you an opportunity after driving many miles to get new tires, new paint job, tune-up, etc. I would take it. Simply because the road is going to end anyway.  I might as well enjoy the rest of the trip in a nice car!



The way I see it, Cenegenics is asking us to trade in our Ford Escort and finance a Ferrari. 

Problem is, our reflexes are better suited to the Escort ...


----------



## Ronnie777777

Just looking at the cheezy commercials puts the product in the usual infomercial crap category.  They don't really say anything...even on the website.  You get a magic pill and a lot of "medical" care which I suspect is something you can get with your insurance and a regular doctor.  Showing a muscular guy with a woman talking about how great his sex life is...is pandering and cheezy.  The person obviously is a weight-lifter and there's a lot of small print that you can't read as it goes by too fast.  It's probably a "what you see here are atypical results" warning.  Like all of these things, it's about selling you testosterone pills and giving you costly medical care that would be cheaper somewhere else.  Testosterone supplements are dangerous and I am sure it is really  nice to have a great body while you are in intensive care in a cardiac ward for loading your body up with testosterone.  One of the posts here is evidently from the company itself.


----------



## Newly Old

dranum786 said:


> Yes, they did blood tests. I did not go anywhere, lady called me and scheduled appointment at my home to draw blood. Blood was drawn 3 weeks before my appointment at the center. When I went for appointment there was 'one man show'. One lady did everything. She started bone scan. She also did carotid artery ultrasound. Then she did different excercises and last excercis was on bicycle, which was monitoring my heart beat also. Then they did brain test on computer. She also showed me video for diet. and she gave me book for low carb diet and high fat diet (ANY NUTRITION COUNSELOR CAN DO THAT OR EVEN YOU CAN GOOGLE IT). Then They gave me lunch and had me rest for an hour. Then doctor saw me. he had all my lab reports. All were normal but he was exagerrating everything and trying me scar me, to make value of his consult and my $5000. I took all those tests to two other physicians and they were all fine. At the end of the day, they charged again $1200 for monthly charges, so basically it was $6200 for that visit. Then they shipped me supplements. One packet contained 8 pills, named multivitamins, I had to take twice daily. One bottle has Co Q10 2 pills twice daily, Fish oil two humongous pills, twice daily, magnesium sulphate pillls, Melatonins, DHEA, testosterone and few other pills. Altogether 30 a day.
> 
> Any physician with primary care can do that. Regular nutritinist and excercise counseller can advice you same or better. This is absolutely worthless. I think you are one of their emplyee of Cenegenics, thats why you are fighting for them. these people should be ashammed and incarcerated. I am warning every one, don't loose your hard earned money on these fraudulent people. If you have extra money, spend on charity instead of these crooks. You will only realise once you already loose $30K. I want to share my experience to prevent you from fraud, rest is up to you. Smart people learn from others experience, and others even don't learn from their own experience. SO BETTER LEARN FROM MY EXPERIENCE.



I stand corrected.  This my first log-in since my last post.  Yes, I see that you did go to Cenegenics.  No, I do not work for them.  (If you read my thread about my experiences, you will see that I talked honestly about the good and the bad that I experienced- including the medical side effects)

I agree that it is extremely expensive.  But it worked wonders for me.  That being said, I cannot afford to renew for a second year.

I have not been able to find any doctors who accept insurance who will do age management and hormone optimization.  The concierge MD's will, but they also charge thousands.

I have seen other programs that seem like Cenegenics and are a thousand dollars cheaper, but that's it.

They are selling a package.  Yes, a nutritionist can prescribe a diet.  A trainer can do an exercise program.  And that may be enough for many people.   For me, I needed the package.  I failed at many attempts on my own over the past 40 years.  Weight watchers, NutiSystems, Atkins diet, dietician, health clubs, "healthy diets."    This one worked for me.  

The bottom line is that I lost 40#, gained strength and energy, feel the best I have in 20 years, and went from a cholesterol over 220+ to 137 with an excellent lipid profile.  You cannot convince me that it is a scam.  

If others can do it on their own, I admire them.   I hope you are finding success for yourself.

Newly old


----------



## Paul J Williams

I did the Cenegenics.  It was not a scam but it was and is too costly.  I suggest that you buy a Paleo or glycemic index book diet plan.  Also get your physician to raise your testosterone.  This will save you $5000 and $1700 per month.  Cheers to all.  Paul Williams


----------



## Ameriscot

Since I don't live in the US this is the first I've heard of this scam.

I'm certainly intelligent enough to figure out on my own through common sense and research how to have the healthiest old age I can.


----------



## iggy

I don't think Cenegenics is a scam.  I have checked into it. and clearly there is great science to back it up.  However, I ultimately decided not to go down that path.  My reason:  while the science is there, they still don't know enough to avoid all harm.  There unquestionably are people who are going to be harmed by Cengenics program.  Supposedly they won't give testosterone and HGH to people who have cancer, but how would they know if you have cancer?  People can have cancer for years before symptoms arise.  If you're such a person, the Cengenics program could seriously harm you.  Let there be no doubt - there is danger associated with all medical interventions, and the problem is doctors are not bright enough (and more importantly not interested enough) to figure out who will be harmed, and who will not.  They are perfectly comfortable putting some percentage of people at risk.  But if you are one of those people who is harmed, it is devastating.  I've been there, but I'm not talking about Cenegenics.  I let doctors perform a test on me that does cause harm to about 1% of the population.  Its a long story.  The bottom line is that I was certain I did not need the test.  The doctor insisted that I have it before doing the tests that I wanted.  It was easier to agree with him than to fight him, and that was worst mistake of my life.  My entire life path was altered by that decision.

Think long and hard about things like this.  Once you're in, you're in and there is no turning back.  If bad things happen to you, you have to live with them.  There is simply no way to figure out if your one of the people that will be hurt.  Its a gamble.  I decided to not gamble on my health anymore.


----------



## 2245cookie

We each have our own beliefs and try to live by them...when I was only 29 years old and had 3 sons already, I was diagnosed with potentially pre-cancer  so my surgeon did a complete hysterectomy on me...reluctantly ..but he did...he was very young and pretty fresh out of med school...mind you that was in 1974...but I will never forget what he told me and I have lived by it...he believed (from all the research he had done) that our bodies are much better off without any hormones rather than to add artificial..so if I could go through all the changes my body was going to go through in the next month without the help of hormones I would never have a problem...I have never put an hormone in my body, even though some female physicians suggested it, and I am a very healthy 69 year old with more energy than I can channel on some days and I am proud to say I do not take medication either....so it worked for me...doesn't mean it is meant for you


----------



## Mary.Hemp

A year ago I was diagnosed with a terminal illness.  I'm divorced, broke, and would have been homeless without my sweet ex-husband.  I decided to push back my doctor's five-year prognosis for me by going online and doing my *own* research about diet, exercise, medicine, etc.  It wasn't hard, and I learned more than I could imagine about what my body needs to survive, what it doesn't need, and how to figure out what works for me.  My routine is simple, and it won't cost you a dime to read about it.  I eat an organic vegetarian diet, take extra-virgin coconut oil to feed my brain, and B-12, D-3 and calcium magnesium to heal me.  No sugar, booze, meat, dairy, or refined foods.  I take one pill for anxiety, and that's it for drugs, OTC, prescription or otherwise.  My doctor says I look 100% better than I did when I was diagnosed.  Talk about "going down swinging"...I may outlive that Cenegenics spokesman, and he's 45 to my 52! layful:


----------



## Kerry

I have never posted anything on a internet forum before. I feel compelled to do so today as I have now read all of the posts on this forum. I have been a Cenegenics patient for 3 years now and it has literally been the best investment in time and money that I have ever made. It has improved my health significantly. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the posts on this forum are made by people that literally know nothing about this field.

 I have read Newly Old try to give an informed and balanced perspective on this discussion only to be picked apart. I am not interested in prolonged writing/arguing with people who do not know what they are talking about, but I do feel compelled to give my perspective to someone who honestly wants a true patient perspective. Being new to posting on such forums, I am unsure how to do this, but I am sure others can tell me. If you would like to talk by private email or phone just let me know how to do that as I would hate to see someone make a decision to be apart of this program or not based on the huge inaccuracies posted on this site. I am a Professor that makes a living doing research. From my research, this was the very best program I could find and the results of it have been astounding.

 Being on a Sabbatical this year, I have the time to answer any individual questions serious people may have that are contemplating this program. The program costs me $535.00/month and I buy all the supplements my Cenegenics doctor suggests at the drug store or at Costco. My doctor even sends me links of what to buy at Costco etc. I find this to be a very cheap investment for the returns it has given me. Despite the negative and inaccurate postings on this site by people who do not know what they are talking about, both my wife and I will be sticking with the program.


----------



## gmat43

Kerry, I am in Michigan and am interested in more details about your experience.


----------



## SifuPhil

Kerry, you make a lot of assumptions about the levels of knowledge and experience of the members of this forum ...


----------



## Meanderer

Gmat43 and Kerry sound like a team!?


----------



## Son_of_Perdition

My question, is Kevin Trudeau involved?


----------



## Kerry

I would be happy to speak with you gmat43. I am traveling today and I am available as of Sunday onward. As stated earlier, I am not sure how the contact thing works, so let me know. Perhaps we could arrange a time to talk by phone through email if you want to privately send me an email address, I can reply and we can arrange a time to talk?? I will be on Hawaii time as of Sunday if my flights are all on time!!


----------



## Meanderer

...I think you two are in the same room.  Friends of NewlyOld I'll bet!  ....or himself!?


----------



## Son_of_Perdition

Meanderer said:


> ...I think you two are in the same room.


It's said that talking to one's self is not crazy, it's only when you answer yourself you need to worry.


----------



## Meanderer

...interesting.  Both making first posts, 20 minutes apart...zeroing in on this thread.  The same wordy, formal, friendly tone by two "strangers" who become instant "tell me more" friends. As the sub title says: Scam or Legitimate?   .....oh  just one more thing: "Then breathe deep, and smell the fresh plumeria in the air".


----------



## Son_of_Perdition

My rule of thumb is if I can't pronounce the name, I don't buy it.  Therefore I buy nothing that has the word ' alummimumin' or 'ryinnocerious' in the title or description.


----------



## Meanderer

Son_of_Perdition said:


> My rule of thumb is if I can't pronounce the name, I don't buy it.  Therefore I buy nothing that has the word ' alummimumin' or 'ryinnocerious' in the title or description.


I guess your house is lacking ryinnocerious siding then!


----------



## Son_of_Perdition

Meanderer said:


> I guess your house is lacking ryinnocerious siding then!


No, but luckily they had vinyl, trouble spelling it but can pronounce it.


----------



## Meanderer

Son_of_Perdition said:


> No, but luckily they had vinyl, trouble spelling it but can pronounce it.


I have vinyl also. The thing is it comes in 3 speeds.


----------



## Truth in the Signal

SifuPhil said:


> From a psychological viewpoint, I would think that anyone that feels so strongly and goes to such great lengths to disavow the natural process of aging - a process, by the way, that is going to get us ALL, sooner or later - is going to be hit all the harder when their time comes, much harder than someone who has led a "natural" life.
> 
> Because, let's face it - replacing hormones that you lose due to aging is NOT natural. Looked at from a certain perspective, you are cheating the house ... and the house ALWAYS wins.
> 
> I can understand a certain zest for life, a willingness to go the extra mile when it comes to healthy lifestyle. Diet and nutrition, supplements and vitamins, exercise, avoiding excesses of all kinds, regular medical check - ups - that's great, that's what anyone who wants to remain in peak physical health should do.
> 
> But by spitting in the face of natural aging one plays a dangerous game. The way I see it, Cenegenics has one ace in the hole, and that is their hormone replacement therapy. All the other stuff - the nutritional guidance, the exercise, the testing - you could accomplish on your own. But it's admittedly difficult to get your hands on what is normally illegal substances such as HGH for the purposes of "anti-aging", and their ability to slow the aging process is highly questionable.
> 
> One needs to consider these pros and cons when evaluating testosterone therapy:
> 
> Potential benefits
> 
> * Improve muscle mass and strength
> * Increase bone mineral density
> * Thicken body hair and skin
> * Improve ****** desire
> * Boost energy
> * Decrease irritability and depression
> * Improve cognitive function
> 
> 
> Potential risks
> 
> * Cause skin reactions
> * Cause fluid retention
> * Cause baldness
> * Cause or aggravate sleep apnea
> * Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate and cause or   worsen urinary symptoms
> * Stimulate growth of prostate cancer that's already present
> * Enlarge breasts
> * Stimulate growth of breast cancer that's already present
> * Cause testicle shrinkage
> * Limit sperm production
> * Stimulate excess blood production
> * Cause acne
> 
> Again, mainly from a philosophical point of view but acknowledging all the potential physical drawbacks, trying to ignore natural aging by partaking in a regimen that is questionable at best and not fully understood is something we do at our own risk.





What you're really saying is that you're ok with getting old and fat, and you really don't like it when other people decide that's not how they want to go. you've never done an ounce of research on testosterone therapy. None. Most of the risks you listed are actually things that are controlled when you go to a reputable clinic to replace Testosterone.

Allow me to address each of these "risks":

*Cause skin reactions  ----LOL, what? Any idea what this means?
    * Cause fluid retention      ----BS. You get leaner. Fluid retention may or may not happen in the first month, then its over
    * Cause baldness            ------ Maybe, if you're already prone to male pattern baldness.
    * Cause or aggravate sleep apnea-----Total BS. There's no evidence to support this. If anything, your sleep pattern improves.
    * Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate and cause or   worsen urinary symptoms -------Possibly, but then regular blood tests from your clinic will tell you if your PSA is increasing, or if your kidneys are having an issue. BTW, guys who carry more muscle, tend to have a higher creatinine level in their blood. Just a fact
    * Stimulate growth of prostate cancer that's already present --------Same. That's why monitoring and bloodwork are done on a regular basis
    * Enlarge breasts     -----Yes, if you're the type of f'ing idiot to take testosterone without an estrogen blocker. Anastrozole comes to mind. Its usually given out as part of your therapy at reputable clinics. Mind you, your doctors that are prescribing the gels, will never address this. Thanks, medical field.
    * Stimulate growth of breast cancer that's already present.....This is utter BS, with no supporting evidence. This one was thought up as a scare tactic by the medical field. And if you're a guy with breasts, the most likely reason for that is low T and obesity. Maybe you wouldn't have breast cancer if you didn't have breasts.
    * Cause testicle shrinkage -------Testicle shrinkage does happen, unless of course, you're taking a product to cause your body to naturally produce testosterone, as an offset. HCG is the most commonly used for this. The amount used varies on the individual and will be adjusted over the course of the whole therapy. Again, this is something a doctor prescribing that useless gel will never address.
    * Limit sperm production ------^^^^^See HCG, which will offset any kind of sperm production issue. Might I add, that if you have low T, you don't have any sperm production in the first place, so this side effect is essentially BS too.
    * Stimulate excess blood production ----- "Blood thickening" as its called. Testosterone causes the increased production of red blood cells. Giving blood every 3 months keeps this in check. So if you're squeamish about giving blood or can't, this may be the one thing to prevent you from taking Testosterone. Once the blood gets too thick, you're susceptible to heart attack or stroke. Giving blood is just common sense. Again, if you're getting testosterone gel from a family doctor, this will never come up.
    * Cause acne  -------- Really? I always wondered why my skin was bad when I was young. Who knew? If acne becomes an issue, your doctor may change you over to Cypionate in grapeseed oil as a base, that will pretty much halt the acne. But there's also other skin treatments, such as antibiotics that will knock it out. Acne is minor compared to having your energy and youthfulness.

the one thing in the benefits that you didn't mention, was the halting of depression. Which it does quite well, but doctors won't tell you that, there's no money in it. If they can wire you up on a variety of anti-depressants, they'll do it. 
Where's all the concern when women go on HRT? I didn't see a national uprising against it for women. I didn't see 30 studies coming out and telling women "just get old and enjoy it". Did I miss that campaign? Yes, I did, cause it didn't happen. So forgive me if I go ahead and do what I need to and make myself feel whole.

Whether or not you do Cenegenics, or make an appointment at a male clinic, I invite you to do so with an open mind. Could be the best thing you ever did. It certainly has been for me, and I've been on testosterone injections for 2 years. Could not be happier. Lastly, if you think you're going to do all this stuff without a strenuous exercise regimen, then you're wasting your money, your time, and your life. Hormones are only part of it. Get your mind right, and get your ass in the gym.


----------



## SifuPhil

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your first post, a post I must add that had to be edited to remove your stated desire to "smack" me.

Testosterone supplementation shows its ugly side once again ...


----------



## Don M.

Cenegenics, and any other such "program", is just a means of stressing the importance of diet and exercise as we get older.  For those who recognize the importance of these principles, there is little need to waste money on such programs, but if a person spends most of their time on the couch, and dines on TV Dinners, such a program certainly would be of benefit.  Insofar as dietary supplements and additives are concerned, we get plenty of those at the grocery stores with all the steroids, growth hormones, antibiotics, etc., that are in our meat and fish products.  The long term effects of GMO alterations of our grain products, remains to be seen.  

Bottom line....eat well, in moderate proportions....get into a routine of daily exercise...and find some hobby or mental pursuit that challenges the mind, and aging will be reasonably good.


----------



## vtaylor724

I don't know anything about this company in particular, so I can't comment on this company specifically. What I can say is that I've been seeing a preventative-care physician who adheres to the same school of thought & has the same approach to health as Cenegenics claims to. He uses bio-identical hormone & thyroid replacement, diet & supplements with good result. Cenegenics is expensive & I think this type treatment can be found more affordably.


----------



## Josiah

I have not seen the Cenegenics ads and have no opinion about their program, but I am strongly of the opinion that careful attention to nutrition, exercise, and other health related life style decisions will do a great deal to increase your chances for living longer and living better. I said recently in another thread that I felt that my memory decline which was quite noticeable at age sixty hasn't markedly declined in the ensuing 20 years and I feel that credit should go to my supplement regimen, my diet, and other life style changes I've made.


----------



## ready_to_age_digracefully

*Shampoo?*



Son_of_Perdition said:


> My rule of thumb is if I can't pronounce the name, I don't buy it.  Therefore I buy nothing that has the word ' alummimumin' or 'ryinnocerious' in the title or description.



Someone told me to read the ingredients on my shampoo bottle every morning, to wake up. Never been the same since.


----------



## Glinda

SeaBreeze said:


> I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send!  How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it.  What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally.
> 
> I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind.  I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental:  Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.
> 
> $4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things.  I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for!  You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:



Hey, SeaBreeze, how do you manage to come down with this "fat wallet disease"??  Is it contagious?


----------



## Linda

rkunsaw said:


> I agree with Elzee, SeaBreeze, and TWHrider.



Me too!


----------



## rt3

The biggest problem / manufacturers don't put the amount of the ingredients. The 99 % of the word part only makes up 1-2% of the soap volume part. Generally shampoos are 98% water. Also the consumer public doesn't understand what a soap does. Shampoos contain those aluminnnnn thingies to make hair shine. There is a difference between sulfates and sulfonate if you want to research it. Now that you are awake your days are more eventful, so maybe the long label is good after all.


----------



## rt3

vtaylor724 said:


> I don't know anything about this company in particular, so I can't comment on this company specifically. What I can say is that I've been seeing a preventative-care physician who adheres to the same school of thought & has the same approach to health as Cenegenics claims to. He uses bio-identical hormone & thyroid replacement, diet & supplements with good result. Cenegenics is expensive & I think this type treatment can be found more affordably.



so true, do not judge HRT by Cenegenics, you will only be shorting yourself.


----------



## SifuPhil

I just watched a classic episode of _Twilight Zone_ called _The Trade-Ins_ where an elderly couple go to The New Life Corporation, where for only $5,000 each they can have their minds and personalities transferred into a set of young bodies with a guarantee of at least 100 years of life.

For some odd reason I thought of Cenegenics ...


----------



## Linda

I remember that episode of Twilight Zone, that was a good one!


----------



## SifuPhil

Linda said:


> I remember that episode of Twilight Zone, that was a good one!



I'm in my glory - they're showing all the most popular episodes for the next few weeks, although I can't really recall many that were "bad".


----------



## trinkits

If a person wants to defy their age.....and even lengthen their years.....Go Vegan.  No pills, No clinics, No injections, No scams. One often hears, "Thats extreme"   It is NOT. The human diet that consumes animal body parts and secretions is extreme. We are brought up to believe its conventional, Therefore when its pointed out that its the single greatest detriment to health....We shun and scoff. Eliminate the consumption of animal products.  It is the best and proven way to defy aging. An animal product diet accelerates the aging process..GREATLY.


----------



## Vivjen

Humans are designed to be omnivores.....not vegan.


----------



## trinkits

*"design" ?*



Vivjen said:


> Humans are designed to be omnivores.....not vegan.



Respectfully..... That is simply not true.  On the humourous side of the reply...... Can you track down the manufacturer of humans and get the original "design" model?     Humans were not designed in a shoppe     But that is irrelevant as to what "design" is, as opposed to what is ACTUALLY healthiest, and healthy therefore translates to reducing aging effects

You may have intended to suggest humans prefer animal product parts diets?..... But what is healthiest?

I have been Vegan since 1991. Initially as i grew up on an animal product diet, I found the Vegan diet "strange" Thats the resistance that convinces humans to say we were "designed" to eat animal body parts and secretions. Less than a few months into a Vegan diet, I now knew what was right and now feel repulsed by animal parts diets. Thats what carnivorous humans have a hard time understanding. You actually get to a point where you prefer a plant based diet and are physically repulsed by animal body parts diet as you reverse your desires.  

Since you suggest i am "designed" to be an omnivore...After almost a quarter century of a Vegan diet.... I must be defying the manufacturers owners manual and i am suffering from neglect and improper care and upkeep ?      Extremely to the contrary !!!   Why do old friends i have not seen in years suggest i look 15 to 20 years less my age and why are they overweight, Diabetic, suffer from heart and lung ailments and pain from inflammation? which evoke my sympathy.  Because they followed the "design" schedule as per the manufacturer? or would that be the marketing efforts of the factory farming (slaughterhouse) machine?  Just a thought  

I think suggesting we are "designed" to be omnivores just eases the mind of he or she that makes that claim to justify that "design"  ..Instead of resisting a poor habit we are trained to believe is correct through societal pressure and factory farming big business who will LOSE untold wealth if people resisted their marketing efforts. I have always wondered why people vehemently resist...When the evidence is there that Vegans are VASTLY healthier and younger looking as a result and ENJOY the benefits. Its not extreme as i suggested before.... and as i said, A few months into a Vegan change.....And you will see how extreme that the consumption of animal body parts and secretions really is. You will.   Take care


----------



## SifuPhil

Some people, whether because of genetics or what-have-you, seem to be able to exist on unusual diets. There have been documented cases of people living for years on only one type of food.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy for you.

We may have been "designed" to be omnivores if you consider our dental layout - we have both carnivore and herbivore types of teeth. Further, some cultures and belief systems (such as Taoism) believe in a balance between meat and plants - Yang and Yin.


----------



## trinkits

Just to add a point...... Some folks might resist a Vegan diet with the idea that they might be deprived. Again, You will find when being Vegan,...within a short period of time...You will prefer and not at all feel deprived. Those ideas of thinking of being deprived transform to preference...Particularly when you begin to feel and look better! ANYONE benefits being Vegan.


----------



## Betternow4sure

I'm new to the forum so forgive me if this is not the right spot. I'm a 66 year old man. I have had hypertension, high cholesterol, arthritis, a history of prostate cancer treated with surgery 15 years ago, obesity. From about age 58-60 I experienced a slow decline in the quality of my life. Low energy, nearly absent libido, lack of interest in anything. I tried anti depressants, no change.

 I've seen the Cenegenics ads and thought "ridiculous". In August of 2014 I ponied up the money, saw their doc, got the lab work. My testosterone level was 280, less than the 300 level that is the usual benchmark. My exercise testing was terrible, even though I try to do aerobics 3 times weekly. My weight was 178, I'm 5'6". I started on the program- exercise involved more weights, gradually building up, less aerobics, and a switch to high intensity interval aerobis twice weekly.

 The diet, essentially Paleo, limiting fruit to one serving per day for weight loss. Testosterone cypionate 50mg IM twice weekly, HCG twice weekly which prevents testicular shrinkage, multivitamins, DHEA 50mg every other day, fish oil, CQ10. Fast forward 8 months. I'm now at 150 pounds. 

My strength is increased and I look pretty good (we went on a hike-tour in Maui recently, ending at a waterfall where we all went for a swim. There were 2 gals in their late 20's. On the way back they sat with my wife in the van. They asked how old i was. She told them and they said " wow, he looks really good!" I Idon't have my hearing aids in and did not hear it! Supreme irony!) Overall I feel great.

 My HGA1C is now 4.5, it was 5.6 and climbing before the program. My cholesterol is 220 off meds. My BP is 124/68 off meds. My libido is great. At home, with work and all the pressures of everyday life we have sex 2-3 times per week, this from maybe once a month, because of me. On vacation, every day, sometimes twice a day. My 64 year old wife is not complaining!

 A long post, but here it is: this is an expensive program and you could buy the pieces cheaper if you put the time into it. But I have 7 day a week access to my nutrtionist, exercise coach and doctor. My meds and supplements are shipped monthly. My labs are drawn at my home. I've had great results, and the only side effect has been a slight climb in my hemoglobin which I handle by donating blood every three months.

 You could criticize every aspect of Cenegenics, from the ads to the cost, to getting testosterone levels to what they were when I was in my 30's. Have at it. But, notice how infrequent you see postings from Cenegenics clients who failed. It's a lot of work, it costs a bundle, and for someone like me it has been so worth it. I'm in for life, and the life I have now is immeasurably better than it was before.


----------



## Sunfighter

Most people subscribe to a religion that promises an afterlife.  If you believe that the afterlife is better than this one,  why would you go to extreme lengths to stay here?  I can't help picturing a fetus hanging on to the cord saying " No no, I won't go."


----------



## Betternow4sure

*Yeah, well....*



Sunfighter said:


> Most people subscribe to a religion that promises an afterlife.  If you believe that the afterlife is better than this one,  why would you go to extreme lengths to stay here?  I can't help picturing a fetus hanging on to the cord saying " No no, I won't go."



Well, there are knowns and unknowns to consider. Unknowns: how long will I live, what will the last years of my life be like, what happens to me when I die? Knowns: every day I wake up is another glorious day. I want to feel the best I can, enjoy the time, my family, my work (and I am still working at 66 with no plans to retire as I enjoy what I do). 

Am I going to extreme lengths to "stay here"? Not from my perspective. Having seen folks in there 80's and 90's go through chemo, open heart surgery, multiple joint replacements, etc., I think what I am doing is more akin to preventive maintenance. I see what those other folks have done as going to extreme lengths, but I am not in their shoes, and you can't be in mine.

 What prompted me to post was the very strong criticism of Cenegenics by people with no exposure to the program other than the ads, the cost, and speculation. Find the message board full of disgruntled ex Cenegenics clients- good luck, it's not there. Are we all going to extreme lengths to stay here? I'm about to do what I do 4 to 5 days per week- walk two miles to the gym, work out for 45 minutes, go to Starbucks for an iced tea, walk home.

 At the gym I see a lots of men and women my age, working to feel good, stay mobile, keep their weight down.  Are we all going to extreme lengths to prolong our healthy lives?  They would laugh and say, heck yeah, and do another set!!


----------



## WhatInThe

In a theoretical  sense these programs turn the patient/participant into a defacto junky. Any hormone or pro hormone program runs the risk of the body turning off it's own hormone supply making the person even more dependent. The extra hormones can fool the body into thinking it's producing enough on it's own and shut down production. Extra hormones work, no doubt. But many of the effects could have been achieved with basic nutrition and regular exercise through out life. I understand a lot of people might have already had a lot of problems but a lot them were probably from not paying attention to exercise or nutrition.

At least with protein and vitamin supplements there are ways to make that up with regular food. Hormones are a different story. So are a lot of these supplements. It's a personal choice. A lot of times when I observe the nutrition habits of Olympic or professional athletes I think I'm watching a junky get their fix. It's just seems like an exorbitant amount of time and focus on one's body.

I'd rather see it available to those who want it rather than banning it.


----------



## Betternow4sure

*Some truth, faulty logic*



WhatInThe said:


> In a theoretical  sense these programs turn the patient/participant into a defacto junky. Any hormone or pro hormone program runs the risk of the body turning off it's own hormone supply making the person even more dependent. The extra hormones can fool the body into thinking it's producing enough on it's own and shut down production. Extra hormones work, no doubt. But many of the effects could have been achieved with basic nutrition and regular exercise through out life. I understand a lot of people might have already had a lot of problems but a lot them were probably from not paying attention to exercise or nutrition.
> 
> At least with protein and vitamin supplements there are ways to make that up with regular food. Hormones are a different story. So are a lot of these supplements. It's a personal choice. A lot of times when I observe the nutrition habits of Olympic or professional athletes I think I'm watching a junky get their fix. It's just seems like an exorbitant amount of time and focus on one's body.
> 
> I'd rather see it available to those who want it rather than banning it.



Most hormones produced naturally self regulate so the levels stay normal. Testosterone is one example. Thyroid is another, and many people have low levels as the gland wears out, for a variety of reasons. The body pumps out thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to get the thyroid to do its job, but it can't. Until you take a thyroid supplement, you won't have a normal level. All the good nutrition and exercise in the world won't help. Are these people hormone junkies? i think if you are a man in his 20's and taking testosterone to build muscle in the face of a normal testosterone level, you've got a problem. But, for older men with low levels, not so much. They are just not producing it like they did in the past. What the medical profession is split on is this: are the low levels, and all that goes with it-low libido, energy, depression, weight gain- a normal part of aging to be accepted, or, should the levels be normalized by giving testosterone, and by normalized I mean getting to levels they had in their 30's and 40's?  Like anything, there are risks to taking hormones. But for me the risk/benefit analysis told me I'd rather do it and see. If I magically could chose 5 more years of life the way I feel now, or 10 like I was before, I'd gladly give up the extra 5. Quality of life counts. But to label me a junky? Strong words....


----------



## WhatInThe

Betternow4sure said:


> Most hormones produced naturally self regulate so the levels stay normal. Testosterone is one example. Thyroid is another, and many people have low levels as the gland wears out, for a variety of reasons. The body pumps out thyroid stimulating hormone in an attempt to get the thyroid to do its job, but it can't. Until you take a thyroid supplement, you won't have a normal level. All the good nutrition and exercise in the world won't help. Are these people hormone junkies? i think if you are a man in his 20's and taking testosterone to build muscle in the face of a normal testosterone level, you've got a problem. But, for older men with low levels, not so much. They are just not producing it like they did in the past. What the medical profession is split on is this: are the low levels, and all that goes with it-low libido, energy, depression, weight gain- a normal part of aging to be accepted, or, should the levels be normalized by giving testosterone, and by normalized I mean getting to levels they had in their 30's and 40's?  Like anything, there are risks to taking hormones. But for me the risk/benefit analysis told me I'd rather do it and see. If I magically could chose 5 more years of life the way I feel now, or 10 like I was before, I'd gladly give up the extra 5. Quality of life counts. But to label me a junky? Strong words....




I've heard for years that where the steroid users get into to trouble is that the body produces multiple hormones but certain artificially introduced steroids mimic or fool the body into thinking all of the hormones are there when in fact they are not. This is also why cycling on and off is critical for steroid users because it allows time for the body to adjust although sometimes the body finds it difficult to produce those hormones again.

Exercise & nutrition are not an immediate cure equivalent to chemical treatment but over time they could slow or alleviate some of the symptoms. Yes once you have those conditions you might need more than exercise and nutrition.

Might not be an addict or junky in the street sense of the word but physical dependence yes. Drop the program and see what happens. It is the patients/customer's call but it is a commitment which could make them "dependent". This is not a procedure or one fill prescription that will cure anyone ales. This could very easily go from an option to a necessity.


----------



## Newly Old

A year and a half ago, I joined Cenegenics and started a thread where I posted my experience in real time, the good and the bad.  After wasting time refuting incorrect information and total nonsense from people who do not know the program, I said "good-bye"  and stopped posting.   I see that people are again discussing Cenegenics with a lot of misconceptions.   I will state my case briefly for those who want to hear a real Cenegenics story.
I am on the program over a year and a half.  I take testosterone at a dose that brings it from an abnormally low level to normal for my age.  Multiple hormones are monitored because adjusting one can result in changes in others.  That is where you need their medical expert.  I take some of their supplements, but only those my doctor feels I need based on my testing.

I follow their dietary recommendations strictly, and to my amazement, it has become a way of life.  I enjoy eating extremely healthy.  I let my desire for sweets totally, even when I buy my kids candy,

My goal was to maintain my health and function for as long as possible.  I do not want to spend my latter years with a walker and constant fatigue and weakness.

Does Cenegenics work for me?  I am 66 in 2 months.   My weight went from 210 to 170.  My cholesterol from 225 to 137, all my other labs normal.  I have the energy I had 20 years ago.  I no longer have any slumps or fatigue during the day and increased my workload from 60 hours a week to 75 hours of very busy office time.  Add to this the hospital visits and middle of the night phone calls.  And I have more energy than others in the office who are much younger.  I love my work and love the fact that I can practice at the same pace at age 66 as I did at 36.     My osteoporosis improved,  My arthritis symptoms in my hands and knees have been gone for one a year.    My health is closely monitored and my labs are perfect.   I would be perfectly happy to lose 10 years of life if it were to be the debilitated ones.  I am very healthy, active and feel great and my goal is to die while still active.  I have no interest in the wheel chair years,     Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

Cenegenics Reviews - From the Docs


----------



## Newly Old

SifuPhil said:


> Cenegenics Reviews - From the Docs



It's fun to read comments from employees and ex employees.  (none are Docs)

So, are you going to accept that job offer from them??

Newly old.


----------



## SifuPhil

Newly Old said:


> It's fun to read comments from employees and ex employees.  (none are Docs)



I didn't see where they claimed they were docs or not, unless you were going by the interview tabs ... 



> So, are you going to accept that job offer from them??



LOL - no, I have to recuse myself due to some medical problems I recently had. 

If they start looking for a retired acupuncturist / OMD then maybe I'll take a look ...


----------



## oakapple

Well, Phil, bet you didn't realise how many pages of comments your OP would bring? I had never heard of this before I must admit.We wrinkly old Brits don't worry too much about these things.We wouldn't shell  out the money on it either.As you say, 'the house always wins' it seems bizarre to want to be 25 forever.All those long winded posts from the 45 year old seemed odd, why come on a seniors forum? I presume  it was somebody who was part of the company promoting it.He sounded as if he needed a sense of humour to be  fitted in amongst his well oiled abs.


----------



## SifuPhil

oakapple said:


> Well, Phil, bet you didn't realise how many pages of comments your OP would bring? I had never heard of this before I must admit.We wrinkly old Brits don't worry too much about these things.We wouldn't shell  out the money on it either.As you say, 'the house always wins' it seems bizarre to want to be 25 forever.All those long winded posts from the 45 year old seemed odd, why come on a seniors forum? I presume  it was somebody who was part of the company promoting it.He sounded as if he needed a sense of humour to be  fitted in amongst his well oiled abs.



Actually I'm quite impressed at how long this thread has lasted. I guess if you throw enough manure at the barn door some of it is bound to stick ... 

And your point about having a sense of humor is something that has always puzzled me - often the healthiest people have the worst sense of humor. You'd think there would have to be some kind of balance there ...


----------



## merlin

oakapple said:


> Well, Phil, bet you didn't realise how many pages of comments your OP would bring? I had never heard of this before I must admit.We wrinkly old Brits don't worry too much about these things.We wouldn't shell  out the money on it either.As you say, 'the house always wins' it seems bizarre to want to be 25 forever.All those long winded posts from the 45 year old seemed odd, why come on a seniors forum? I presume  it was somebody who was part of the company promoting it.He sounded as if he needed a sense of humour to be  fitted in amongst his well oiled abs.



The same here oakapple, never heard of it, its interesting when these old threads appear out of the vaults, you learn something new everyday here !! nthego:



> Actually I'm quite impressed at how long this thread has lasted. I guess if you throw enough manure at the barn door some of it is bound to stick ...
> 
> And your point about having a sense of humor is something that has always puzzled me - often the healthiest people have the worst sense of humor. You'd think there would have to be some kind of balance there ...



It seems if you become addicted to just about anything in life, you are in danger of becoming evangelical about it, and humour usually goes out of the window then.  

I am not sure the healthiest people are the ones obsessed with their health, in my experience they are often not actually that healthy, and tend to worry themselves to death.


----------



## SifuPhil

merlin said:


> It seems if you become addicted to just about anything in life, you are in danger of becoming evangelical about it, and humour usually goes out of the window then.
> 
> I am not sure the healthiest people are the ones obsessed with their health, in my experience they are often not actually that healthy, and tend to worry themselves to death.



I agree - as I'm always saying, it's all about balance. 

Now it's time for me to go chuckle over my meds.


----------



## art237

Need I say More?


----------



## SifuPhil

art237 said:


> Need I say More?



So Dr. Life really got in shape - well, dropped his body-fat anyway - with some super-shakes, _not_ the Cenegenics program? 

Interesting find!


----------



## art237

SifuPhil said:


> So Dr. Life really got in shape - well, dropped his body-fat anyway - with some super-shakes, _not_ the Cenegenics program?
> 
> Interesting find!



I'm glad you find it interesting...When I first saw the Cenegenics Commercial, I knew I had Seen Dr. Life some time ago in a magazine...I was on the body for life years ago And remembered his face quite well.
To bad He has to lie about how he truly became fit or has decided to say nothing about EAS body for life challenge so he could start his own company and call it whatever...he must not realize that there
are a few out there that have photographic memories...


----------



## SifuPhil

The truth always outs, as they say ... 

I'd have to check the Cenegenics site again to see what their claims are exactly, as far as Dr. Life's history ... somehow I don't recall his mentioning BFL.


----------



## Newly Old

MY TWO YEARS ON CENEGENICS:

Hello to all I have corresponded to since I first joined Cenegenics 2 years ago.  I promised to tell my progress, warts and all.  No warts, actually, but did have to donate blood for a year due to high hematocrits from the testosterone.  That has stabilized and I remain normal.  The results of my studies are very pleasing.  I am 66 years old. I have no plaque in my carotids.  My artery wall thickness is less than the 25th percentile (the lowest/best range)  My percent body fat went from 32.9 to 18.7%   I lost over 30# of fat and put on over 11 # of muscle.  A better way to look at it is that my body fat was at the 95% for my age at the onset and is now at the 9th percentile.  My labs show that my testosterone is in the normal range (was low) and other hormones normal.  (testosterone is given to correct low testosterone, not to make it artificially high)  The most important thing is that I feel great.  My joint sx;s are gone.  My fatigue is gone.  I feel easily 20 years younger.  I work a high paced job 60 hour per week including one night.  I have much less money that I would have had if I had not been on Cenegenics, but for me it has been well worth it.    This is just my experience to date.   I have not been checking recently, so I do not know if there have been many posting who have actually been on the Cenegenics program.  It is far different from their ads.

Newly Old


----------



## SifuPhil

Congrats, Newly - glad it's worked for you!


----------



## balki

Hi Newly - glad that it worked! I am trying to find more reviews! Sounds like you had a good experience. How expensive was the program?

Balki


----------



## fureverywhere

I never heard of this but then again I don't watch much TV. It seems to me that a conventional doctor could do the same tests and all. It all depends on what insurance you have and how much you can pay out of pocket. My Dad is much older but has great insurance. His doctors will run a whole bunch of tests regularly. At my age with my insurance, unless some part of me breaks down completely it's kind of don't ask, don't test. Even if money was no object I wouldn't trust an ad from TV.


----------



## Newly Old

fureverywhere said:


> I never heard of this but then again I don't watch much TV. It seems to me that a conventional doctor could do the same tests and all. It all depends on what insurance you have and how much you can pay out of pocket. My Dad is much older but has great insurance. His doctors will run a whole bunch of tests regularly. At my age with my insurance, unless some part of me breaks down completely it's kind of don't ask, don't test. Even if money was no object I wouldn't trust an ad from TV.



It is hard to find internists who will do this.  It is not covered by insurance because "aging" is not a "disease."    Hormone optimization (bringing low testosterone into the normal range) is not yet routinely accepted by MD's.  There are numerous studies coming out showing the benefits and refuting old safety concerns.  I expect that it will become more widespread, but until then, good luck.

Under most insurance plans, doctors cannot provide uncovered services and chart the patient out of pocket.  And since age management is not covered...

Newly old


----------



## Newly Old

very expensive, but I think there are different programs.  The initial comprehensive exam and testing is about $5,000 i believe.  For me, it made a huge difference in my life.  

Newly Old


----------



## chic

$5,000 for a medical exam is beyond my budget. Then you'd have to pay more for supplements etc. wouldn't you?

Anyway, congrats on your success. It sounds like you're enjoying life far more now.


----------



## Newly Old

chic said:


> $5,000 for a medical exam is beyond my budget. Then you'd have to pay more for supplements etc. wouldn't you?
> 
> Anyway, congrats on your success. It sounds like you're enjoying life far more now.



I think it is beyond almost everybody's budget.  I think they have some options for lesser programs, but the full program started with the exam, then a monthly program fee, plus pharmacy costs for supplements, testosterone if needed.

It worked for me because I decided that I would commit to the full program.  That means very careful healthy diet every day.  Exercise. I haven't had a cookie, donut, cake, ice cream, candy, glass of orange juice, pasta, potatoes, pretzels, etc in over 2 years and plan on (almost) never eating them again.  

I think of it like this.  I used to ski mogul fields on big mountains when I was younger.  I loved it.  I don't think my 66 year old bones would do well in a high speed tumbling fall down a mountain.  So it is something I did in my youth.  Same with eating.  I used to eat those things.  I loved them.  I used to love delicious meals and dessert.  It was something I did when I was younger.  Now I eat for health and nutrition. 

Major expense, major lifestyle change- for life.  

Newly Old


----------



## chic

Food is fuel for me too and my dietary choices are almost identical to yours for the same reasons. Throw in execise, meditation, t'ai chi and a bit of yoga, weight lifting and I'm not doing too badly for a senior gal. And it's affordable which helps me lots too. Financial distress could cause health issues which I don't want.

So I guess we're both successful. And that's pretty awesome at our age. nthego:


----------



## Sid N

I live in a senior community and I see everyday what's in my future IF I don't do something to better my all around health. Cenegenics offers me a new life. A life of activity, travel, women, shows and such that I will truly be able to really enjoy my senior years. Now all have to do, is be able to afford it.


----------



## Jimhatl

*Which program & Doctor did you use?*



Going Down Swinging said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening.  Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do.  When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.  Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for  a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.  I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's,  my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.  So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test).  So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up.  I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .  So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management.  Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...



who did you use


----------



## Underock1

SeaBreeze said:


> I didn't know about this wonderful program, these folks are a God-send!  How generous of them to help us old people get organized and take care of ourselves, with our brains being so scattered, we're hopeless on our own, really, let's just admit it.  What a blessing...they can lead me to not only to become a physically healthier human being, but one who's also complete mentally and emotionally.
> 
> I would happily use any steroids or hormones that these fine folks recommend, they seem to sincerely have nothing but my health in mind.  I put my faith in them to make the best senior life for me that I can possible have. :sentimental:  Thank goodness some of their members are doctors, I have complete confidence that I will be given all the special drugs needed to turn my life around, these people are experts with prescription medications.
> 
> $4,000 is such a small price to pay to be taken under their wing and shown the 'right' way to do things.  I'm sure any additional fees are a bargain, even if expensive, you know...you get what you pay for!  You won't have to worry about dying from fat wallet disease anymore either...S..C..A..M..:greedy_dollars:



Do I detect the sarcastic ranting of an irritated senior person here?  :tapfoot:


----------



## Underock1

I notice none of the posters having happy results give their age in their profiles or, save one, almost any other information. All seem to be among our youngest posters. I am happy that they are getting some good results out of a very expensive program. I can see how it might be of some benefit. I am not in a position to judge. Ultimately, only time will tell.
The trouble with not going gently into that dark night, but yelling and screaming, is that its annoying to the rest of us, and you're going anyway. Personally, being in my eighties, I'm looking for a program to get me out of here. :wave:


----------



## SifuPhil

Heck, if I want steroids I can just visit Benny the Pusher up the street ...


----------



## FazeFour

Underock1 said:


> Do I detect the sarcastic ranting of an irritated senior person here?  :tapfoot:



Jeez, I HOPE it's sarcasm. It made _me_ laugh.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Underock1 said:


> Do I detect the sarcastic ranting of an irritated senior person here?  :tapfoot:




Irritated....no, sarcastic....:yes:   :hair:


----------



## Bluecheese50

SifuPhil said:


> *Cenegenics.com*
> 
> If you watch any television at all, chances are good that you've seen a Cenegenics commercial in the last few months. They've been on a massive advertising campaign to get new members into their program, and after checking out their site, downloading their brochure and doing some fact-checking I just wondered if anyone else had checked them out.
> 
> Basically they are an "aging management" business (not an "anti-aging" one, as has sometimes been claimed). Their goal is to provide concierge service to members through extensive medical testing, nutritional and exercise prescriptions and, most controversially, the administration of steroidal / hormonal compounds.
> 
> Their theory is that as we age we may make rudimentary attempts at maintaining health, but until now we've only gone about it in a slip-shod manner. They offer to take over the reigns and guide you through a regimen that they claim has proven successful in re-vitalizing their senior members.
> 
> This is only a "scratching-the-surface" attempt at explaining what they're all about, so if you're interested visit their website, download their brochure (PDF format) and decide for yourself.
> 
> One thing that is NOT mentioned anywhere is the price. My research turned up a few numbers: approx. $4,000 for the initial rounds of testing (for which you have to visit one of their centers for 2 or 3 days), followed by monthly maintenance costs (prescriptions, testing, etc.) of around $1,000-$1,500. It's not cheap, certainly, and it might explain why so many of their members are doctors, but what price health?



You would have to be totally senile to fall for that scam, imo!


----------



## Sportyrider

I joined here today just because I googled Cenegenics and it brought me here. I'm about to turn 67 years young and wanted to look like those guys in the advertisement on TV. Been retired about 2 years, work out 3-4 times per week with resistance springs and dumbells. I only eat at home with all fresh foods. Walk my 2 large dogs daily (sometimes twice) 3-5 miles. My measurements are fine with 18" biceps, 13" forearms, 17" neck, 48" chest, 35" waist and 195 pounds at 5'11". But I cannot get a six pack because my back won't allow me to do the necessary exercises. 
After reading about what is entailed by using Cenegenics I think that I'll continue eating the same foods, doing the same exercise program and be pleased as punch twice a year when my doctor says "Sporty, you are in excellent health". Appearance isn't everything and I've learned from my dead friends that good health is the most important thing that you can strive for.
So for all of the narcissistic people out there who want to look good in their old age I say forgetaboutit and concentrate on diet and exercise and stay away from the witch doctors.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Hi Sporty, welcome!  Sounds like you're doing all the right things to stay healthy in your senior years, and nice your dogs are helping you get some walking in, I walk mine daily too.


----------



## Sportyrider

SeaBreeze said:


> Hi Sporty, welcome!  Sounds like you're doing all the right things to stay healthy in your senior years, and nice your dogs are helping you get some walking in, I walk mine daily too.


Thanks. If I don't walk them I'm afraid that they will tear the place apart. 12 and 8 year old German Shepherd mixes trained to give kissies to my elderly neighbors. 

Now that I know what Cenegenics is all about I think I'll check out the rest of the forums here.


----------



## WhatInThe

*Accept Getting Old and Age Gracefully*

Sporty brought up the issue of the narcissistic people wanting to look good. Which leads to two questions/issues. Are good looks good health? And how much time and effort should be spent on one's appearance let alone health. I noticed in the bathroom of a kid re(kid is anyone younger than I at this point) and middle aged people with good functional health had almost 3 dozens bottles of soaps, lotions, shampoos, treatments etc. They are both fashionistas as well. 

At what point does health, healthy appearance turn into vanity & narcissism. I guess there is no set time or amount one can place on appearance but if other parts of one's life is lack because of that time, money and effort spent on appearances isn't that a problem in itself.


----------



## Sportyrider

WhatInThe said:


> Sporty brought up the issue of the narcissistic people wanting to look good. Which leads to two questions/issues. Are good looks good health? And how much time and effort should be spent on one's appearance let alone health. I noticed in the bathroom of a kid re(kid is anyone younger than I at this point) and middle aged people with good functional health had almost 3 dozens bottles of soaps, lotions, shampoos, treatments etc. They are both fashionistas as well.
> 
> At what point does health, healthy appearance turn into vanity & narcissism. I guess there is no set time or amount one can place on appearance but if other parts of one's life is lack because of that time, money and effort spent on appearances isn't that a problem in itself.


Good looks do not mean good physical health. Just as good health doesn't necessarily mean good looks. I miss having a six pack and when I saw those men on the Cenegenics advertisement I thought that if there was an exercise plan that could make my six pack return after being gone for 25 years I might try it. 
But alas, it was another drug supplement program involving money for specious claims. I'm all natural and knew that Cenegenics weren't for me. If I can't make gains using diet and exercise then I  will be satisfied being fit and healthy for as long as I can. 

I'm more concerned with my health rather than looks, but I do spend 10 minutes per day shaving my head and sculpting my beard.


----------



## Newly Old

Sportyrider said:


> Good looks do not mean good physical health. Just as good health doesn't necessarily mean good looks. I miss having a six pack and when I saw those men on the Cenegenics advertisement I thought that if there was an exercise plan that could make my six pack return after being gone for 25 years I might try it.
> But alas, it was another drug supplement program involving money for specious claims. I'm all natural and knew that Cenegenics weren't for me. If I can't make gains using diet and exercise then I  will be satisfied being fit and healthy for as long as I can.
> 
> I'm more concerned with my health rather than looks, but I do spend 10 minutes per day shaving my head and sculpting my beard.



I joined Cenegenics for health reasons.  I had failed all prior attempt to lose weight, change  to  healthy diet, etc.

My testosterone level was low, which is a common problem for people my age (67) 

It was brought to the normal range, I gained more energy, and probably due to my following their diet plan which normalizes insulin levels, by body mass index went from very high to normal.  My total body fat content improved tremendously.  My inflammatory markers came down to normal and my arthritis symptoms vanished.  My energy level is terrific.  I work a 60 hrs work week including 2 evenings and due not get periods of fatigue.  My bone density improved.

Cenegenics is way too expensive, in my opinion.  But for me, it has been great.  I feels  so 20 years younger.   

I have been on it for 2 1/2 years.   It is possible that most of my success is from eating a healthy low carb diet and exercise.  But for me, after a lifetime of failing diets,  I have succeeded because of the Cenegenics program.

I attribute a lot to my Cenegenics physician.  He has monitored my health progress closely.

I do not like the fact that they are now selling a lot of products online.   I only like the program under the direction of the physician.

Newly Old


----------



## JEdward

To All Who Wonder About Cenegenics, 

I have been a patient of Cenegenics for the last eight (8) years. I am currently 64 years old. I will say that I look and feel better than all of my friends (except one that is also on the program) I agree that it is very expensive, but it is worth every single penny. No Doubt!! I have more vitality and energy than men 15 years younger than me. When I started the program at Cenegenics, a doctor friend of mine from Cleveland Clinic gave me a warning that there was no "science" supporting their theory of blood work analysis. I ask him to show me medical proof that it was dangerous from me to take. He had to admit that there was no such medical evidence or proof positive information other than the human growth hormone may cause my prostrate to grow faster.... and that was a theory. I made the decision to start with Cenegenics.  It is now eight years later. I am living proof....LIVING PROOF, that this works. I have been an advocate for this type of program, and Cenegenics in particular for a number of years. I have been asked by nonbelievers to stop taking everything for 90 days to see if I would feel different and compare. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! I am very happy with things just as they are. I will continue this program till the day I die.... which with the excellent group of doctors at Cenegenics, will be a long time. And if it is not a long time.... it will be a more fun time then I could have ever had without them.


----------



## Newly Old

I am 3 years on Cenegenics.  67 years old.  I agree on your praises.  Made a huge difference in health and energy.  Went from fat to learn, tired to energetic, labs from abnormal to normal.  Have posted details, including running Karyn my first year or two.

I still don;t understand why friends  compliment my results, but none have joined.  They all say they "need it," but they get older, stay overweight and tired.

I am visible proof.  They agree. And do nothing.

When people see me for the first time in years, or learn my age, I no longer tell them it is due to Cenegenics.  Why bother?  I just say I guess I have good genetics.  

Newly Old


----------



## Betternow4sure

Now on Cenegenics closing on 3 years. I feel great and look pretty good for a 68 year old. Comments on narcissism are misplaced. If you look in the mirror and like what you see you feel that much better. If you don't care what you look like, so be it. I've seen you at Walmart. Cenegenics turned my life around. I'm stronger, my libido is like a 30 year old, all my labs are so much better. Went from multiple pills for hypertension, borderline diabetes, to one synthroid per day. I could not have accomplished this on my own, believe me, I tried. Once again, none of the posters who disparage the program have any experience with it. Keep looking for the disgruntled Cenegenics clients. You won't find them.


----------



## SifuPhil

Well, it's nice to see some success stories to balance out my pessimism. Thanks!


----------



## ajfisme

*Truly?*



Going Down Swinging said:


> fkunsaw, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Congratulations on agreeing with ignorance. So using Elzee's logic "We are going to die anyway", what is the point of doing anything? why do to any doctor? Why try to eat healthy? Why exercise?  Seriously?  Ok, I realize there are those that just want to sit on the sofa, sit a bowl of popcorn on your gut like a table and watch you TV shows until you die. Hey, if thats your thing God speed. My and an increasing number of people realize we can be more healthy, we can feel younger, look younger. We can have a better quality of life and be more active.  Your mentality just confuses me. Its likeyou are all just giving up on life and just dont care. I want more from life. I refuse to just wither away before my time.   Its just hard for me to imagine people want that. I want to be able to play ball with my grandsons. Spend days in Disny world with the family without being "The old guy that everyone waits on" and the guy that gets tired and has to go to the room and nap...no, thats not me.  For me growing old gracefully and willingly is not an option. I came into the world with a great family and great health, I still have that. I came in full of life and vigor, I still have that. I came in with a sense of curiosity, wonder and amazement and still have that. I came in with a sense of adventure and love of life, I still have that.   I came in with no money and I worked hard and changed that, so I dont relate to your comment at all. You all sound sad and depressed. I wish you all luck.



My grandfather is 96 years old and still among the living and still going. He has never used cenegenics nor does he wish to use it. He has farmed almost his entire life on a 100 acre farm in Alabama. Furthermore, I am very much into a good balanced diet and exercise as is my family. No offense, but not everyone wants their hormones toyed with and their bodies a living guinea pig for a bunch of quacks to experiment with. I don't mind aging gracefully and the way nature intended. I'm not trying to live forever or be the best looking specimen in the casket. And while I agree that the elderly can be difficult to take care of, I'm not so selfish to "leave the old guy that everyone waits on" behind. I have great love for the elderly, like my grandfather, father, and mother, whether able bodied or not, and you sound like a self-serving, selfish twit. Sad and depressed are not in my vocabulary so get a life and go bother someone else. Just wow! The audacity and nerve.


----------



## terry123

Elzee said:


> Good grief. My grandpa's attitude towards life was: Chin up and carry on. Why do we need to be looked after all the time? Why can't we be left alone? We are going to die anyways. So, a little peace and quiet along the way is my preference. My suggestion is that they go and look after people who really need it - such as the poor in third world countries. But, ooops, I almost forgot, those folks don't have any money to pay this company for their services. So, this company is just looking for a market. That is all it is.


  What Elzee said!!


----------



## Younger than my years

Hey Going Down Swinging:
5 years later, are you still a fan of this type of medical service?  Can you advise of the group you are working with?  Thanks!


----------



## jag512

I have been researching nutrigenetics for one of the internal med physicians I do consulting for, and came across this blog post. I'm 55 but as a native Iowan, I understand how people feel that Cenegenics could be a rip-off or scam, but the science behind it does exist and you can find it everywhere online, as this area has really developed in the past four or five years. You can definitely work with your own physician on some of this, but you may want to try to locate a doctor who has certification in functional or integrative medicine. If I had my choice, I'd find an endocrinologist who has gone this route, but another person I keep my eye on is Dr. Stewart in here in Austin, TX, who has a company called GX Sciences. I'd also recommend a book by Dr. Neal Rouzier, I think it's spelled? He looks at hormones and how they affect our health. 

It's pretty easy to understand that as we age, we don't produce some hormones like we used to, and that can cause issues. Once you run the appropriate panels, then you can see the deficiencies. You could take 30 supplements to treat them all, or you can get compounded supplements that fulfill the dietary requirements you are likely missing from your food intake so you have to take fewer supplements, which might increase compliancy. I do believe Hippocrates was correct when he said "Food is medicine." Chiropractors have been telling us this for years, and have preached "health care" rather than the "sick care" that most of us get from doctors. However, to me, it starts with education. If you're not educated about the hows and whys of nutrition and the effects (like what a diet that causes inflammation does to one's body, or how eating carbs for or after dinner can affect your body's production of its own HGH), then a lot of this is going to sound like horse pucky. I have to say I'm proud of my German Midwestern dad who grew up on the farm. He eats very healthy, keeps his weight in check, exercises, and probably reads WAY too much about health on the internet, but he stays open to learning about medical advances and the gaps in his diet. He's had issues sleeping and in dealing with stress (owns his own business...still...at 78), so the issues he has has led him to learn about cortisol and B vitamins, for example. He lives next door to a chiro who gives him some "do-it-yourself" insight. I'm in menopause and go to my OB GYN every year. I ask about tests, and my T is SUPER low, but no one ever recommends changes. I'm probably 30 pounds overweight despite eating fairly healthy, but no one says anything but lose weight. That's why I started looking into doctors who would worry about balancing my hormones. I figure I'd rather go that route than do antidepressants and fad diets that cut out entire food groups and a lot of things that are out there to "help" like others have, but I know that slow and steady wins the race. I just have to find the right key that unlocks my hormone issues. Even without this, at 55 I'm told I look 45, but I attribute it to good parental genes over anything I do! I would be interested in trying hormonal balancing if I had the money to do so. That's going to be the barrier to entry for many.

I'm starting with healthy eating of whole foods at almost every meal, and some exercise every day--the book The Slight Edge teaches you how little habits can create big changes. That seems basic to most of us, but trust me -- most people think it takes a miracle. They are the ones in the ER and ICU at the age of 50 with hypertension and T2 diabetes. The doctor I'm working with is so frustrated watching his diabetic patients eat themselve to sickness and he just wants an option to offer people that gets to the root of the issue, instead of always dealing with the effects of it. 

One last note -- if we keep people out of the ER and ICU, we all win. Health insurance is so bad right now, I feel like it's worth checking into some of these other areas like genes and nutrition that can hopefully help with weightloss, sleeping, and even deeper issues. etc. There are definitely many more doctors offering these types of services so you can price shop. Here's wishing you all good health! <3


----------



## jaminhealth

I started supplementing in my 50's after the onset of menopause.  So I'm taking supplements about 30 yrs give or take.  

My #1 is grape seed extract and it does just about everything and for sure  Anti Agiing.

There are SO MANY sites on this powerful antioxidant and I wouldn't even start to post them...so so many.    You google the condition and grape seed extract and you get hits.  

Here is one really good one and I don't buy their product but I like their overview:

https://gundrymd.com/grape-seed-extract/

This isn't the one I'm thinking of but it's a good one for now.  If and when I find the one I really like I'll post it.


----------



## jaminhealth

Ah, I found it, the one site I really like:

http://grapeseedextract.com/

I first got on this powerful antioxidant in 1995 as we were told at at a lecture that it "MAY" prevent cancer(s).....I'm 80 and doing good health wise.  And told I do not look 80...

Jag:  Grape Seed Ex reduces diabetes.


----------



## mike1450

Going Down Swinging said:


> *Ignorance is Bliss...and foolish*
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> I have read a lot of ignorant sarcasm in discussing Cenegenics. This company practices age management , not age organization and they are not a nanny service. What they are doing is Bio-Identical hormone Relacement therapy. Before you roll your eyes and speak with a uneducated , closed mind you should know what this actually is. They do a very lengthy and compley blood screening.  Something a lot more comprehensive than your Family Doctor would ever do.  When we get older certain things happen and our bodies naturally stop making things like estrogen, testosterone, HGH and many other things. The blood test results show them where the deficiencies are and where somethings are too high. They look at your comprehensive health and how it all works together. They measure thyroid function, vitamin levels, cardiac function, many key indicators to possible future healh issues that can be proactively corrected. Once they get this "Full Health picture" , they correct the imbalances by perscribing theraputic amounts of things your body naturally produces and needs and helps counteract and issues found. Your diet is even changed in a lot of instances. They really take a comprehensive look at your health and put things back to where they should be.  Oh, and no "steriods". thats just silly. The only steriod would be testosterone, something you need anyway. I have been under the care of an age management Dr for  a couple years now. I look and feel years younger. My wife is doing this with me and she has equally good results. I am 45 so maybe not as old as some of you on here but I started on this therapy and got back into the gym. I initially lost 30 pounds and then gained muscle because I am on a high protein diet and the testosterone helps build muscle.  I have very low "T" as they say on TV and my Dr never caught it. My level shoul dhave been 600+ and I was at 75..very low. Just balancing your Testosterone back to where it needs to be will activate your metabolism , help muscles , give you energy and make you geel great. I am now in better shape than when I was 25. Now, I was very athletic and played college football but my bosy had gone downhill a lot. Now, I can outrun my 20 year old son and my bench press is around 400. Not bad for a 45 year old. I am muscular and have ab muscles. ****** appetite and function is beck to where it was in my 20's,  my skin looks years younger and I am in great health because its monitored closely.  So, call it a scam all you want but it works and it does great things for your health. yes, its a bit pricy but Cenegenics is more expensive than most. I paid a total of around $1,000 to get started (including the bloood test).  So $4,000 is high. I suggest looking around. This has been the best thing I have ever done. My father in law told me about it, he has been doing it for years. He is 65 and looks 50, acts younger and says he feels like a 30 year old. he is extremely active. I am a believer and have personal experience to back it up.  I can honesly say, this is real science and not a scam. Like anything just do your homework and look for better deals. By the way, I am told all the time that I look 35 and younger women constantly flirt with me...I go to the beach, take off my shirt and look better than most. My kids are amazed and my wife is extremely happy .  So people like seabreeze can be negative all they want. I guarentee that if I was sitting next to them at the beach they would only wish they looked as good as I do. I hug my Dr every time I go see her..she is a miracle worker and I have the peace of mind knowing I will have a long healthy, good quality life because of her and age management.  Take the time to really look into this, you will not be sorry. For those that just want to grow old naturally, this is not for you but some of us want to go down swinging. Good luck all...


Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------

