# Another school shooting



## chic (Feb 14, 2018)

In Parkland, FL. 14 victims. Suspect apprehended. What a tragedy.


----------



## moviequeen1 (Feb 14, 2018)

When will these senseless tragedies ever stop? Sue


----------



## Mrs. Robinson (Feb 14, 2018)

I`m sitting here watching and just crying. Those poor kids. Cell phone video of the shooting in a classroom through a locked door,kids screaming and getting down. Simply horrifying.


----------



## chic (Feb 14, 2018)

Kids can't even enjoy Valentines Day anymore without facing a life and death situation. It just makes you sick.


----------



## CindyLouWho (Feb 14, 2018)

Yes, sigh , about 4 hours from where I live...............I feel so bad for those students and what they have to go through. This is just infuriating and senseless. Ugh!


----------



## applecruncher (Feb 14, 2018)

ABC News says "multiple" fatalities.  Can't imagine what the families/parents are going thru.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2018)

moviequeen1 said:


> When will these senseless tragedies ever stop? Sue



They won't stop. This is the 19th so far this year in just one and a half months. At this rate there could be another one hundred school shootings this year.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 14, 2018)

This apparently was a 19 year old ex student.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200126034.html

If he graduated why the frack didn't he just move on. 

Also for what it's worth miles from the beach that's much closer to "typical" suburban living, not tourist or beach bum style living.

RIP lost students/children and speedy recovery to injured.

PEACE


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 14, 2018)

moviequeen1 said:


> When will these senseless tragedies ever stop? Sue



Never. This truly is the 'new normal' with absolutely no end in sight.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 14, 2018)

My deepest condolences to all affected by this tragedy. My heart goes out to the American people.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 14, 2018)

Again, another mentally ill, young, white male, 19. Said to be "troubled" and was asked to leave school at one point.
So proud of his weapons. I also heard he's been showing off pictures of his guns to some people.

On St. Valentines's day and Ash Wednesday, too.

Before the gun battle starts, please let me say I believe there is a HUGE mental illness problem with young males and older too, in this country. 

17 confirmed dead, some died at the hospital.


----------



## rgp (Feb 14, 2018)

Cap'n Mike said:


> When you get rid of your guns! My heart bleeds for all those poor souls needlessly taken from this world. Headline in England:*Live updates: Shooting at high school in Parkland, Fla.; multiple fatalities reported*




 Won't happen...guns are what our forefathers used to break away from you-all.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 14, 2018)

17 dead. Unbelievable! Too easy to get guns.


----------



## Seeker (Feb 14, 2018)

So sad, our world is a mess. Is there anything we can do now? Somedays, I just want to go..........................:sorrow:​


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 14, 2018)

My prayers and condolences to the victims and their families, and for the family of the shooter.

I've never owned a gun, but when I was in high school, in the early 60s, in rural Ohio, a lot of kids and some faculty brought rifles and shotguns to school, and left them in their car or truck.  My older brother would go hunting (rabbit, squirrel, etc) before school.  I never heard of any type of issues with the guns at schools back then.

My point?  It isn't that guns, per se, are a problem.  But I'm not sure what is.  I dunno.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 14, 2018)

Very sad news, my sympathy to the victims and their families.  RIP


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 14, 2018)

Mental / Emotional illness which no one is prepared to deal with or even try to understand what is going on with these young men.

Citizens of Switzerland have more weapons than we do, relatively speaking.

Should the Swiss ban weapons?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Mental / Emotional illness which no one is prepared to deal with or even try to understand what is going on with these young men.
> 
> Citizens of Switzerland have more weapons than we do, relatively speaking.
> 
> Should the Swiss ban weapons?



I dunno. What is the Swiss gun massacre rate?


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 14, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I dunno. What is the Swiss gun massacre rate?



I doubt there is any.
My question is why do we have a massacre rate?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2018)

That really is the question RadishRose.

This article in the Financial Times attempts to address it. The data is 5 years old.

https://www.ft.com/content/200a8746-a7db-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97

I cannot cut and paste so it will be necessary to go to the website but the following points are made:


The US has had 90 public rampage shooters who killed 4 or more people between 1966 and 2012. In comparison, the second highest tally was The Philippines with less that 1/5 as many. US is less than 5% of world's population but had 1/3 of mass shootings over this period.
 


Rates of per capita ownership of guns are a significant predictor of mass shootings between countries. The US has more guns per capita than any other country (including Switzerland) and also the highest rate of mass shootings. This points to the answer to your question  which is too many guns readily available. The recent Florida school shooting was again an AR - 15, the gun of choice for mass murderers. Perhaps merely banning and confiscating these and similar weapons would have the greatest effect on the mass murder rate.
 


Most Americans do not own a gun. Gun ownership is concentrated. Most gun owners have several guns. The population is fairly evenly divided on the subject of gun control. Support for/against tends to divide along party lines.
 


Mass shootings are contagious. One rampage shooting increases the likelihood of another attack in the next few days.


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 14, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> .....Citizens of Switzerland have more weapons than we do, relatively speaking. Should the Swiss ban weapons?



Yes. They have a high rate. The BIG 'however', is that military weapons can be purchased from the government and they are _converted to a non-assault weapon. _The Florida shooter had an AR-15 with a mess of magazines. Other shooters had variations of the AR-15. They don't have easy-to-obtain assault rifles in other countries._ Nowhere in the world are there constant, mass shootings. _


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2018)

Remember Las Vegas?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-15/las-vegas-shooting-aftermath-sheriff-joe-lombardo/9449626

Nothing much has happened about regulation bump stocks either. Any legislation passed?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-06/what-have-the-nra-said-about-gun-control/9021780


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks for the info, Warrigal.. I personally feel, without any references I admit, that  
"_Perhaps merely banning and confiscating these and similar weapons would have the greatest effect on the mass murder rate_."

"Perhaps" is a big word here. "merely banning"? Having the greatest effect on the mass murder rate? I somewhat disagree with "greatest".

I see two factors that are most important:

1.Cause
2.Means

The Means are the weapons, so if we get rid of them, what about the Cause? It's the cause I believe is some kind of mental illness, some kind of rage, something in the water-whatever- that fills our young men's minds with the passion to kill.

We need to address the Cause just as crucially or even _more_ so, than the means. 

Because they will still kill. Maybe just one or 2 at a time instead of 7 or 17, but the cause still has to be addressed.

There are often signs that go ignored.  In this case today, the principal banned the suspect from the school grounds, but the Superintendent of Schools claims he never heard of that! Lack of communication.

I've read other kids stating they used to say about the suspect; "If anyone would shoot up the school it would be him". He was a known troubled and violent young man. Everyone ignored him.

I don't know what to do. I'm just a grandmother with no degree in anything. But these guys are sick and something needs to be done to cure them or prevent this madness.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 14, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> Yes. They have a high rate. The BIG 'however', is that military weapons can be purchased from the government and they are _converted to a non-assault weapon. _The Florida shooter had an AR-15 with a mess of magazines. Other shooters had variations of the AR-15. They don't have easy-to-obtain assault rifles in other countries._ Nowhere in the world are there constant, mass shootings. _



True. But it's not just the weapon, it's a madness or a societal problem. Everybody wants to harp on the weapon without addressing the cause.  

That's all the input I have.


----------



## Ruthanne (Feb 14, 2018)

Another St. Valentine's Day massacre...awful.  Shocking but not surprising anymore.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 14, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> True. But it's not just the weapon, it's a madness or a societal problem. Everybody wants to harp on the weapon without addressing the cause.
> 
> That's all the input I have.



I suppose, too, that it's a way for the "powerless" and to feel "powerful".


----------



## Don M. (Feb 14, 2018)

If there is anything positive about this latest shooting, it is the fact that the authorities have captured this lunatic, and he appears to be unharmed.  Hopefully, they can learn something about what drove him to this senseless act, and begin to take steps to help prevent future acts of a similar nature.  Most of the time, these shooters are either shot, or take their own lives, and we are left with little other than speculation for their motives.  

With all these school shootings, there is a active attempt, in this States legislature, to allow teachers to take firearms courses, and be allowed to carry concealed weapons in school...it wouldn't surprise me to hear of other states that are considering similar legislation.  Another alternative might be to have armed police assigned to our schools...this senseless killing of children cannot be allowed to continue.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2018)

We have our fair share of disturbed young men too but the last one that got his hands on such lethal weaponry was in 1996. Laws were introduced, not to ban all guns as frequently supposed, but to make sure anyone wanting to buy one had a valid reason for doing so. (Yes I know - the 2nd Amendment - it would require another amendment to the constitution) There was a gun amnesty that allowed a lot of illegal guns (as in unregistered) to be handed in and other legal guns were bought back and all of them destroyed. The states agreed to uniform legislation and the federal government outlawed the importation of certain categories of guns.

Not easy to achieve and politically courageous BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD TO CRY OVER VICTIMS OF A SHOOTING RAMPAGE EVER SINCE. As far as I can remember we have never has a school massacre. That does seem to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...hur-Massacre&usg=AOvVaw0mJ0sjvDQmMnu4pc-2YXAc


----------



## Traveler (Feb 14, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> My prayers and condolences to the victims and their families, and for the family of the shooter.
> 
> I've never owned a gun, but when I was in high school, in the early 60s, in rural Ohio, a lot of kids and some faculty brought rifles and shotguns to school, and left them in their car or truck.  My older brother would go hunting (rabbit, squirrel, etc) before school.  I never heard of any type of issues with the guns at schools back then.
> 
> My point?  It isn't that guns, per se, are a problem.  But I'm not sure what is.  I dunno.




Until people begin to understand that there is something seriously wrong with our crumbling culture, it will continue.  Sad but true.


----------



## chic (Feb 15, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> My prayers and condolences to the victims and their families, and for the family of the shooter.
> 
> I've never owned a gun, but when I was in high school, in the early 60s, in rural Ohio, a lot of kids and some faculty brought rifles and shotguns to school, and left them in their car or truck.  My older brother would go hunting (rabbit, squirrel, etc) before school.  I never heard of any type of issues with the guns at schools back then.
> 
> My point?  It isn't that guns, per se, are a problem.  But I'm not sure what is.  I dunno.



I agree. Young people in the U.S. used to carry and use guns when I was growing up, but things like this never happened back then. Maybe it's lack of parenting?? IDK,


----------



## Matrix (Feb 15, 2018)

What a tragedy! My sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims.


----------



## 911 (Feb 15, 2018)

I was involved in trying to prevent one school shooting back in '06. The shooter, Charles Roberts, took ten little Amish girls hostage and shot eight of them and killed five. It was a very horrendous sight to watch play out. Our negotiator could not talk the shooter out before he killed himself. Once the shooting started, Five of us charged the building, weapons in hand, but Charles had killed himself just as we kicked in the door. 

The egregiousness of the shooter's actions did not hit me until hours later. I think the fact that I had so much to do kept my mind busy and was able to block out the horrific nature of what had just happened. I have replayed that day over and over asking myself if I could have done something different to prevent the shooting from even starting, but the Psychiatrist that I had visited days later told me that when these types of people go on a mission such as this, nothing will stop them. 

That day has been the worse day of my life.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

God bless you for caring and for being there. :bighug:


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

Here is another hero who cared.



> *Florida shooting: Football coach 'died a hero' shielding students from school gunman*
> 
> Thu 15 Feb 2018, 8:33pm
> 
> ...



Vale, Aaron Feis. Heaven awaits the man who lays down his life for another.


----------



## dpwspringer (Feb 15, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Until people begin to understand that there is something seriously wrong with our crumbling culture, it will continue.  Sad but true.


I think you are on to something, unfortunately the way the wind is blowing it is likely to continue getting worse. Victimology or whatever it is called that we have heaped on us by much of the media causes most everybody to get upset, frustrated, and feeling like they are being done wrong.


----------



## hearlady (Feb 15, 2018)

I just have no words.........


----------



## hearlady (Feb 15, 2018)

Wait! Yes I do. I always hear "He fell through the cracks". We need to fill these cracks.
There were signs. Many, many signs.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 15, 2018)

> If there is anything positive about this latest shooting, it is the fact  that the authorities have captured this lunatic, and he appears to be  unharmed.  Hopefully, they can learn something about what drove him to  this senseless act, and begin to take steps to help prevent future acts  of a similar nature.  Most of the time, these shooters are either shot,  or take their own lives, and we are left with little other than  speculation for their motives.



I thought the same thing, Don, when I read about it this morning. At least this one isn't dead, and maybe by studying and talking with him, the authorities can find out what makes these mass murderers "tick."  What was going through his head at the time?  What prompted him to do such a horrifying act in the first place?  I know he was expelled from that school for bad behavior, so how long was this level of anger boiling in his system?  Maybe some clues might come to the surface that could help prevent the next mass shooting.

About the guns, there's  probably not much that can be done at this point. The gun lobby has seen to it that there are so many weapons of mass slaughter floating around that even if all guns were banned tomorrow, there would still be millions of them out there on the black market. Obviously, anyone wanting to own a gun would still easily find one.


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 15, 2018)

> _Another alternative might be to have armed police assigned to our  schools...this senseless killing of children cannot be allowed to  continue. 				_



There were armed police here. Didn't do anything. You can patrol the entire school all the time and be in all places.


----------



## rgp (Feb 15, 2018)

Remember when parents used to have some anxiety / fear when their teenage kids went out on a weekend night ?  I sadly suspect they now have that same anxiety / fear when their kids go to school...How in the world did we get to this point ?


----------



## Stormy (Feb 15, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> True. But it's not just the weapon, it's a madness or a societal problem. Everybody wants to harp on the weapon without addressing the cause.


RIP to everyone who died
You're right Radish not everybody but the ones who are loudest. It pisses me off that every time this happens there's people waggin their fingers and preaching more gun restrictions especially from other countries who are already under complete gov control. Again and again they ignored all the warnings about this Nikolas de Jesus Cruz, the school officials and the gov and him being involved with the Syrian resistance and other terrorist bomb making groups. He made so many threats and they were all ignored now everyone is so shocked. He even said he was going to be a school shooter on social media. Where were the armed security guard that should have been in place since the last school shooting? Were any qualified adults allowed to conceal carry and maybe stop this lunatic when the count was 3 dead? That's all the input I have here like you Radish

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasac...ng-threat-from?utm_term=.aqw79XNJ1#.dqYzRQAK0
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200126034.html

"Fox News reports that Cruz was a member of "resistance groups" on Facebook, according to reporter Trace Gallagher.
“He’s also following resistance groups, like Syrian Resistance groups and fighter groups out of Iraq and, we should also note that a couple days ago, as far as a week ago, that he was involved in a Youtube chat room conversation about bombs or building bombs,” Gallagher said."


----------



## Traveler (Feb 15, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Until people begin to understand that there is something seriously wrong with our crumbling culture, it will continue.  Sad but true.





chic said:


> I agree. Young people in the U.S. used to carry and use guns when I was growing up, but things like this never happened back then. Maybe it's lack of parenting?? IDK,





dpwspringer said:


> I think you are on to something, unfortunately the way the wind is blowing it is likely to continue getting worse. Victimology or whatever it is called that we have heaped on us by much of the media causes most everybody to get upset, frustrated, and feeling like they are being done wrong.




I believe that there are multiple causes of why so many young men do these terribly violent attacks.  Anger ? Yes, but what has caused that anger ?  

Children need much, much more parental involvement and supervision of what the child is allowed to do.  Unfortunately, in todays world, children have access to every bizarre thing on the internet. I am NOT a computer expert but I have heard that there are ways to lock-out certain undesirable aspects of the www.  

I have also read that there are extremely realistic and ultra violent video games. It has been said that by the mid to late teens, kids have "killed over 10,000 "virtual people" on those games. 

We have heard that many, perhaps even most, of the teenage killers are loners who isolate themselves.  This is a HUGE "red-flag".  Normal, mentally healthy kids do NOT isolate themselves. Normal, healthy kids are involved with their peer groups. They play sports, go to the beach, go to parties, have part-time jobs, and start to become interested in dating.

I repeat, the biggest, most important factor for raising normal, healthy, happy kids is for the parents to be totally involved in their children's lives. A little bit of so-called "quality time" doesn't cut it. Day in, day out, 24/7, love, kindness, involvement, supervision and caring discipline are all required to raise healthy children.  

Two last notes. Buying "things" for children can NEVER take the place of love and involvement. And boys absolutely need a strong male presence in their lives. A single parent mother can do the job but she must be one very tough, yet loving, parent.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> Won't happen...guns are what our forefathers used to break away from you-all.



Not really.  The forefathers never envisioned weapons of that type to be used to kill innocent civilians.

Even during the revolution.  The only targets were soldiers on both sides. Civilian homes were not raided and innocents killed.

This is stretching the Second Amendment way to far from what it was intended for.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2018)

What's puzzling or is getting lost is that this mass murderer/shooter was 19 years old-a young adult, not a juvenile. He wasn't in the school anymore. He's still a killer and doesn't minimize what he did but this wasn't a kid being bullied on the school yard. He should've been treated like any other adult when investigating any prior threats or offenses. Saw where the FBI interviewed him in the fall-did they treat him like a high school student or young adult? Also heard he was expelled for bringing banned items to school. It's like no one can put all the facts together.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Again, another mentally ill, young, white male, 19. Said to be "troubled" and was asked to leave school at one point.
> So proud of his weapons. I also heard he's been showing off pictures of his guns to some people.
> 
> *On St. Valentines's day and Ash Wednesday, too.*
> ...




Ironically,  the Broward County sheriff's name is *Israel* and the shooter's middle name is *Jesus*  [ Nicolas de Jesus Cruz.]

.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> There were armed police here. Didn't do anything. You can patrol the entire school all the time and be in all places.




Schools officials should be armed and trained how to use those weapons in an emergency.

Recently I heard about a crime that happened many years ago when an estranged abusive father entered an elementary school with a gun and demanded the Principal hand over his little boy.  It should have ended there in the Principal's office.  Instead, the Principal took the father to the child's classroom [putting other children in danger] and the armed father left the school with the little boy who was never seen again and is presumed to have been murdered [the father who is now in prison refuses to tell authorities what happened to the little boy.]


----------



## Traveler (Feb 15, 2018)

I believe that any discussion of too many readily available firearms is missing the point. 

How many teenagers are attending America's schools ? Ten of millions. Out of that number, how many teenagers go on killing rampages ?
We are talking about approximately 1 in a million.  Any fool can obtain a firearm in America.  99.9999 % of teenagers DO NOT pick up a weapon and start killing. Why ? In my opinion, in the answer lies in how children are parented. 

The number one goal of any parent is, or should be, to successfully raise a normal, healthy, educated, child. In other words, to prepare the child to take on the responsibilities of a successful, productive, adult. In this respect, the parents of the Florida killer --- failed. Just as the parents of the Columbine and Sandy Hook killers failed in their primary task. 

The root cause, in my opinion, is the child has been granted too damn much freedom. As someone else mentioned, the brain of a child has not sufficiently developed to allow the child to made good life choices. We do not allow children to buy cigarettes or alcohol. We do not allow children to vote or stay out all night. Nor do we allow children, below a certain age, to drive a car. The reason we do not allow those things is because we recognize that children simply do not possess the requisite level of responsibility. 

We want, indeed need to, allow a child certain freedoms but *only *when they are ready for those freedoms.  We encourage and teach our children how to walk BUT we don't allow the child to walk out the front door at age two. We allow a child limited freedom to eat or not eat certain foods. But we, as good parents, make every effort to insure the child is getting the proper nutrition. No good parent would ever allow a child to eat nothing but ice cream. We, as good parents, control the child's impulses. In other words, we guide (discipline) the child. 

Bit by bit we allow more and more freedoms to the child BUT only when we are certain that the child can safely handle those freedoms. 
Trust of, and freedom for, the child, should never be granted willy-nilly. It must be *earned *by the child.


----------



## twinkles (Feb 15, 2018)

these children that have autism are put on medication that can hurt them --just like doctors putting people on chantix so they will quit smoking have suicidal thoughts -- have heard a lot of people say they had to get off of it--they  put children on ritalin and other meds and sometimes it worse than  the disease


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 15, 2018)

twinkles said:


> these children that have autism are put on medication that can hurt them --just like doctors putting people on chantix so they will quit smoking have suicidal thoughts -- have heard a lot of people say they had to get off of it--they  put children on ritalin and other meds and sometimes it worse than  the disease


In many cases, doctors with little or no mental health training, hand out Ritalin like candy without first ascertaining is the child disturbed, or disturbing? Kids with hellish homes often act out, but that is often indicative of a poor environment, not necessarily a biochemical imbalance. As for Chantix, I couldn’t take it, it made me majorly depressed, borderline suicidal.


----------



## 911 (Feb 15, 2018)

We had a young man on another mind altering drug that I forget the name. His mother came home from work and found him hanging in a doorway upstairs. It’s times like those that I Just wanted to go home and take a long vacation. I have no idea how these drugs work, but IMO, I think they are very dangerous. I am not sure if the good they do for some is worth the bad they do for others. 

Thoughts?


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

.

Was "Nikolas" Cruz adopted from Russia  ??
Russians are infamous for alcohol problems.


" Cruz was adopted at birth, along with his biological brother Zachary, by loving older couple Roger and Lynda Cruz, after the couple moved from Long Island in New York to Broward County. Roger died several years ago from a heart attack. 

*It's unclear if he was adopted from the U.S. or aboard. Adopted children from abroad sometimes have issues adjusting due to neglect in their orphanages, especially children from Russia*. "

*

" Another classmate, Emily Sucher, 16, remembered Cruz as an 'off kid' who would 'smile weirdly, make weird comments.'

In the hours since the shooting, *there has been speculation Cruz may have fetal alcohol syndrome - a congenital condition which causes developmental and behavioral issues - given his facial features - a low nasal bridge, small eyes and thin upper lip - and behavior*."

more at link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5393601/Instagram-school-shooters-guns-violence-hurting-animals.html

.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 15, 2018)

An interesting article about how Japan handles firearms ... 

[h=1]Japan has almost completely eliminated gun deaths — here's how
[/h]


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 15, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> An interesting article about how Japan handles firearms ...



Interesting article. Can't happen here so it's a moot point.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 15, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> Interesting article. Can't happen here so it's a moot point.


Do you have any suggestions re what might work in America?


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 15, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> Interesting article. Can't happen here so it's a moot point.



Can't happen for several reasons. I just wonder which is the biggest - the Constitution or the social culture?


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 15, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> Interesting article. Can't happen here so it's a moot point.



And ... perhaps parts of their plan might be useful here, such as the extended testing required for firearm ownership and the mandatory psych testing.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 15, 2018)

The booking report gives place of birth as Margate, FL.  Who really knows?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Was "Nikolas" Cruz adopted from Russia  ??
> Russians are infamous for alcohol problems.
> ...



I wouldn't put too much weight on anything that appears in the Daily Mail. The above is pure speculation and is designed to create a distraction from the elephant in the room - the fact that he was in possession of an AR - 15, the weapon of choice for efficient massacres.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I wouldn't put too much weight on anything that appears in the Daily Mail. The above is pure speculation and is designed to create a distraction from the elephant in the room - the fact that he was in possession of an AR - 15, the weapon of choice for efficient massacres.




I've owned and target practiced with an AR-15.   
It is a very popular rifle to own here in Texas.


----------



## Ruthanne (Feb 15, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I've owned and target practiced with an AR-15.
> It is a very popular rifle to own here in Texas.


Some people can own one responsibly.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> Some people can own one responsibly.




Good guys [and gals] being armed keep the criminal minority in check.

I could barely shoot my 357 handgun [too loud and too much recoil !]
But an AR-15 is easy and fun to shoot... a great equalizer for a woman.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

Easy, and fun to shoot? 
Is that why it is popular with teenage boys?


----------



## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Easy, and fun to shoot?
> Is that why it is popular with teenage boys?




Personally,  I think violent TV shows,  movies and video games warp young minds.

How many virtual humans has the average teenager virtually shot and killed ??  

Boys used to be taught by their fathers how and when to responsibly handle weapons.

Now the fathers are also watching violent shows and playing violent video games.


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Do you have any suggestions re what might work in America?



No. Because they're all impractical. People will not give up their guns ---- there are at least 300 million guns in the U.S. That stockpile won't be given up and no one can be compelled. The permanent damage is done (with the stockpile) and we'll be on to the next mass shooting in a week or two.
   If I had different circumstances, I would leave the U.S., largely over this issue, tout suite.


----------



## retiredtraveler (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Can't happen for several reasons. I just wonder which is the biggest - the Constitution or the social culture?



Look at KingsX comment. That's why point is moot.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

retiredtraveler said:


> Look at KingsX comment. That's why point is moot.



What - violent video games and movies?


----------



## rgp (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Personally,  I think violent TV shows,  movies and video games warp young minds.
> 
> How many virtual humans has the average teenager virtually shot and killed ??
> 
> ...



Yeah but didn't some used to say that the violence of Roadrunner & Coyote influenced us as well ? I never developed an urge to drop an anvil anyone's head.....do you really think the shows are that influencing ?......not arguing, just thinking out loud.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

rgp said:


> Yeah but didn't some used to say that the violence of Roadrunner & Coyote influenced us as well ? I never developed an urge to drop an anvil anyone's head.....do you really think the shows are that influencing ?......not arguing, just thinking out loud.



Agree, and I watched the exact same cartoons. 

But then I had a mother and father that taught me right from wrong - maybe that's the secret. 

Admittedly, though, the violence level in movies and TV has increased in both frequency and intensity. Popular shows like _The Walking Dead_ are highly graphic, yet millions watch it without getting the urge to cleave a head.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> . " Cruz was adopted at birth, along with his biological brother Zachary, by loving older couple Roger and Lynda Cruz, after the couple moved from Long Island in New York to Broward County. Roger died several years ago from a heart attack.
> 
> *It's unclear if he was adopted from the U.S. or aboard. Adopted children from abroad sometimes have issues adjusting due to neglect in their orphanages, especially children from Russia*. "



I would never believe anything written by a journalist who contradicts himself that badly as if no one should notice. I wonder which of the reporter's statements is true.

If Cruz was adopted at birth, he wasn't neglected in an orphanage.


----------



## Falcon (Feb 16, 2018)

Well,  EXCUSE  ME,  But MY feelings  involve the  victims; not this creep who, before his execution,  should be

Water Boarded at least  ONCE  for each one of his  victims.

Word gets around  ya know  and  perhaps  things MAY change.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

rgp said:


> Yeah but didn't some used to say that the violence of Roadrunner & Coyote influenced us as well ? I never developed an urge to drop an anvil anyone's head.....do you really think the shows are that influencing ?......not arguing, just thinking out loud.




Cartoons are not realistic. 

In violent TV shows and movies the audience is passive, but violent thoughts are planted.

In violent video games,  the audience participates in the violence. How many virtual humans has the average teenager virtually killed ??


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Agree, and I watched the exact same cartoons.
> 
> But then I had a mother and father that taught me right from wrong - maybe that's the secret.
> 
> *Admittedly, though, the violence level in movies and TV has increased in both frequency and intensity. Popular shows like The Walking Dead are highly graphic, yet millions watch it without getting the urge to cleave a head.*




But the seed of violence is planted in a sick society where violence is "entertainment."
Fortunately, for most of us that seed doesn't germinate.  

.


----------



## rgp (Feb 16, 2018)

Falcon said:


> Well,  EXCUSE  ME,  But MY feelings  involve the  victims; not this creep who, before his execution,  should be
> 
> Water Boarded at least  ONCE  for each one of his  victims.
> 
> Word gets around  ya know  and  perhaps  things MAY change.




 I agree....way too much concern these days for the criminals...Not near enough for the victims & the families they leave behind. 

 We {America} has developed a 'coddling' approach when it comes to criminals. I do not get it nor do I agree with it.

 While I support our system...I question some  aspects of it. We have arrest / prosecution & a trial, for the purpose of determining innocence or guilt. The most obvious example I can think of is the shooting of the congress woman in Arizona. I mean the perpetrator was standing there with the smoking gun literally in hand. he WAS guilty ! there was no need for a trial. Shoot him...period.

Worrying about [why] he did it really does not matter...because the next whacko that does something similar, will have a different 'reason'...a different 'why'.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> But the seed of violence is planted in a sick society where violence is "entertainment."
> Fortunately, for most of us that seed doesn't germinate.
> 
> .



So do we call up McCarthy and HUAC and set about cleaning up the world? I doubt that would work in this day and age.

You can't change people's basic nature.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> You can't change people's basic nature.




Nor can you change  "people's basic nature" with gun-control.

Ironically,  after mass shootings like this, liberals beat their drums for gun control,  and gun sales go UP !


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 16, 2018)

I don't agree with "coddling" either! Far from it. I just want to know WHY these people kill in masses. Whatever the reason or reasons for it, we must find out so we may be able to prevent at least some of it in the future.

We know what the means are.
Hopefully we can discover the cause (s).


----------



## oldman (Feb 16, 2018)

I kind of like the idea of allowing certain school teachers the right to carry. After all, some pilots now carry guns into the cockpit. I flew the coast to coast route, so we were loaded with fuel and an obvious takeover target by radicals. I was offered the opportunity to have a gun in the cockpit, but turned it down for a few different reasons. 

With the right training and education, I could see some positive results, if a teacher were allowed to carry. It may even act as a deterrent for others (e.g. students) to carry.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Until people begin to understand that there is something seriously wrong with our crumbling culture, it will continue.  Sad but true.






dpwspringer said:


> I think you are on to something, unfortunately the way the wind is blowing it is likely to continue getting worse. Victimology or whatever it is called that we have heaped on us by much of the media causes most everybody to get upset, frustrated, and feeling like they are being done wrong.






Shalimar said:


> Do you have any suggestions re what might work in America?






KingsX said:


> Personally,  I think violent TV shows,  movies and video games warp young minds.
> 
> How many virtual humans has the average teenager virtually shot and killed ??
> 
> ...






KingsX said:


> Cartoons are not realistic.
> 
> In violent TV shows and movies the audience is passive, but violent thoughts are planted.
> 
> In violent video games,  the audience participates in the violence. How many virtual humans has the average teenager virtually killed ??






KingsX said:


> But the seed of violence is planted in a sick society where violence is "entertainment."
> Fortunately, for most of us that seed doesn't germinate.  .




These mass shootings did not happen when we were going to school. Ask yourselves what has changed since then ?  (post #'s 42 and 47)


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 16, 2018)

oldman said:


> I kind of like the idea of allowing certain school teachers the right to carry. After all, some pilots now carry guns into the cockpit. I flew the coast to coast route, so we were loaded with fuel and an obvious takeover target by radicals. I was offered the opportunity to have a gun in the cockpit, but turned it down for a few different reasons.
> 
> With the right training and education, I could see some positive results, if a teacher were allowed to carry. It may even act as a deterrent for others (e.g. students) to carry.



I don't know much about tasers, but would they be effective? I'm thinking there may be many, many teachers who couldn't shoot a person and may leave the profession if forced to have that as one of theirs duties.

Yet I do realize that certain teachers wouldn't hesitate to protect.


----------



## 911 (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> These mass shootings did not happen when we were going to school. Ask yourselves what has changed since then ?  (post #'s 42 and 47)



Back then, Mom was home before and after school. In most cases today, probably not. Having Mom at home makes a difference. My Mom was like the quarterback on a football team. She was the captain and in charge of most everything that went on in the home.


----------



## 911 (Feb 16, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> I don't know much about tasers, but would they be effective? I'm thinking there may be many, many teachers who couldn't shoot a person and may leave the profession if forced to have that as one of theirs duties.
> 
> Yet I do realize that certain teachers wouldn't hesitate to protect.




Have you ever been Tasered? I have and I have seen one person die from being Tasered. The teacher, once trained, wouldn't have to shoot to kill, but when you put a weapon in a person's hand, the objective is to destroy the target. I guess we could say that it's a Catch 22.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

When looking for the "cause" of mass shootings in our schools, the 1st step is to realize there is not *A *single cause but rather a group of causes.

Look at it this way.  Charcoal is harmless, So is Sulfur. So is Potassium Nitrate. What happens when you combine them in exactly the right proportions ?  You get GUNPOWDER.  It is the same with disturbed people. No one single cause, but a multitude of causes.

Anyone who wishes to kill, is going to find a way. No guns ? No problem. Just make a bomb. All of the information on bomb making is on the www.  

I ask again, what has changed since you and I went the school ?  Did we have violent video games or any video games for that matter ? No.

When we came home from school our mothers were waiting for us. That is not necessarily true today. 

When we went to school, drugs were unheard of, at least during the 1950's and early 1960's. Not true today ! Any 7th grader can easily get his/her hands on any drug they want.

When we went to school our parents laid down strict rules for what we could and could not watch. 

When we went to school there was no such thing as a computer or the www where any child can now easily watch the most violent, hate filled, material imaginable.

When we went to school we required to do chores around the house: mowing the lawn, raking the leaves, washing dishes, helping mom wash the windows, etc etc (Jeez, did I ever hate that one. But I obeyed). Todays kids often never lift a finger around the house. They are catered to. 

When I was a kid I had a paper route and I shoveled snow in the winter and mowed lawns in the summer to earn my money. Todays kids often are given money as a matter of routine. 

When we were kids we were well trained in the basics of civilized behavior. Is that true today ? Not in my opinion.

When my mom found a few bits of tobacco in my shirt pocket, I was in BIG trouble. Not today.

As an adult I watched a single parent mother coddle her son. He was given anything he wanted, anytime he wanted it. When she found out he was selling marijuana, she did nothing. When the police came to her house and told her that her son was caught shop-lifting, she did nothing. This went on for years and years. Sadly he became a full-blown heroin addict and he regularly stole everything he could from his mother. Did she learn and take action ? Nope. Instead she bought him a house down the block. When he was fired from every little job he ever had because of theft, the mother still did NOTHING.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> These mass shootings did not happen when we were going to school. Ask yourselves what has changed since then ?  (post #'s 42 and 47)




Plenty...  much of which is [unfortunately]  not PC enough to post on a public forum.

One major problem is the so-called "justice" system.   Criminals are coddled and given reduced sentence plea deals.
Convicted murderers, kidnappers and rapists have been freed to walk the streets again.  I remember a famous case
here in Texas where a pedophile kidnapped a young boy and kept him as a sex slave for many years. Yes, the criminal
was finally caught and convicted. But he served fewer years in prison than the little boy had suffered as his sex slave.
If I were queen,  convicted kidnappers, rapists and murderers would be executed.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Plenty...  much of which is [unfortunately]  not PC enough to post on a public forum.
> 
> One major problem is the so-called "justice" system.   Criminals are coddled and given reduced sentence plea deals.
> Convicted murderers, kidnappers and rapists have been freed to walk the streets again.  I remember a famous case
> ...




*BINGO *!  I too could post about P.C. this and P.C. that, but I don't want to start a fire-storm of anger.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

911 said:


> Back then, Mom was home before and after school. In most cases today, probably not. Having Mom at home makes a difference. My Mom was like the quarterback on a football team. She was the captain and in charge of most everything that went on in the home.



*
YES, EXACTLY* ! That is a *HUGE *and important difference.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

twinkles said:


> these children that have autism are put on medication that can hurt them --just like doctors putting people on chantix so they will quit smoking have suicidal thoughts -- have heard a lot of people say they had to get off of it--they  put children on ritalin and other meds and sometimes it worse than  the disease




Ritalin is used for ADD and ADHD.

To my knowledge, there is no drug for autism.
But no doubt the phrama industry will invent one
that has worse side effects than the disability.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> When looking for the "cause" of mass shootings in our schools, the 1st step is to realize there is not *A *single cause but rather a group of causes.
> 
> Look at it this way.  Charcoal is harmless, So is Sulfur. So is Potassium Nitrate. What happens when you combine them in exactly the right proportions ?  You get GUNPOWDER.  It is the same with disturbed people. No one single cause, but a multitude of causes.
> 
> ...




Great commentary !

The irony is... drug addict children have been known to murder for drug money.
In one case I heard about,  a spoiled drug addict murdered her own doting mother.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Plenty...  much of which is [unfortunately]  not PC enough to post on a public forum.
> 
> One major problem is the so-called "justice" system.   Criminals are coddled and given reduced sentence plea deals.
> Convicted murderers, kidnappers and rapists have been freed to walk the streets again.  I remember a famous case
> ...




I would prefer to see more emphasis placed on prevention than punishment. I'm not saying punishment isn't necessary, but given the history of these school shootings, this one never should have happened.

It would take an insane level of greed to sell an M-15 to that Cruz boy, especially after Newtown.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

911 said:


> Back then, Mom was home before and after school. In most cases today, probably not. Having Mom at home makes a difference. My Mom was like the quarterback on a football team. She was the captain and in charge of most everything that went on in the home.



This latest shooter was 19, well past the age where Mom should be monitoring him when he goes out the door.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

For the sake of balance, I would like to state many children of the fifties and sixties were severely abused. June Cleaver didn’t live at their house. Few resources available, kept hushed up.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> This latest shooter was 19, well past the age where Mom should be monitoring him when he goes out the door.




Yes, that is true. However, the training, supervision, discipline, or lack thereof, he had while still at home, very likely "set the stage". What happens within the home, is a *HUGE *determining factor for what kind of people we become.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> For the sake of balance, I would like to state many children of the fifties and sixties were severely abused. June Cleaver didn’t live at their house. Few resources available, kept hushed up.




Children of the 21st century are *still *being abused. What was the name of those two parents who kept their 12 children locked up and tied up ? Remember just a few weeks ago ?  I just looked it up. Their family name is Turrpin of Perris, California.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 16, 2018)

This is a long aticle and I haven't absorbed it all yet. But there is a LOT of info here if interested in guns in the US-

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I would prefer to see more emphasis placed on prevention than punishment.




That sounds nice...  unless specific "prevention" punishes law-abiding citizens.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Children of the 21st century are still being abused. What was the name of those two parents who kept their children locked up and tied up ? Remember just a few weeks ago ?



I am well aware of the current stats around abused kids. I have them as clients. I testify in court, trying not to show any emotion around the graphic pics of abused, sometimes murdered children. My point in my previous post was, the past had horrendous stories also, I believe you posted something recently about your own abusive childhood. Throughout my career, I have counseled many adults in their later years, finally able to confront the abuse they suffered as kids. Such courage.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I would prefer to see more emphasis placed on prevention than punishment.





Fine. Wonderful.  But when prevention FAILS, as it keeps failing, lock the baswards up, for a VERY VERY long time.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I am well aware of the current stats around abused kids. I have them as clients. I testify in court, trying not to show any emotion around the graphic pics of abused, sometimes murdered children. My point in my previous post was, the past had horrendous stories also, I believe you posted something recently about your own abusive childhood. Throughout my career, I have counseled many adults in their later years, finally able to confront the abuse they suffered as kids. Such courage.




Yes, that is true, but my point is that abuse of children, back in the 1950's and 1960's did not result in mass school shootings during those times. 
And, Shalimar, there can be no doubt that you know the stats and the trauma that child abuse causes.  I put that in there for others who are less aware.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

.

Speaking of prevention... seems the FBI dropped the ball.


*Florida Gov. Rick Scott calls for FBI Director Christopher Wray to resign in wake of Parkland school shooting*

" Florida Gov. Rick Scott called for FBI Director Christopher Wray to resign Friday in the wake of revelations the bureau ignored a Jan. 5 tip about Parkland school shooter Nikolas Cruz, who killed 17 when he opened fire on Valentine's Day.

The agency said earlier Thursday in a statement that it received a call in January from a person close to Cruz through its Public Access Line tipline to express concerns about Cruz's erratic behavior and disturbing social media posts.

That tip said that Cruz had a gun, wanted to “kill people” and there was the “potential of him conducting a school shooting.”

more at link

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-resign-in-wake-parkland-school-shooting.html


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 16, 2018)

Also, a bail bondsman got a comment on his Yahoo page from Nikolas Cruz that "he wanted to be a professional school-shooter'". The Bondsman reported the post to Yahoo, assuming they turn these things over to the authorities. The day after the shootings, an FBI agent called the bondsman and came to his home for questioning.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2018)

Fascinating thread. 
So many words written trying to find something to blame for mass murder except the ready availability of the AR - 15.

Do you all suppose that the social problems that are being pointed at do not exist in other countries around the world?
Do you think that only in America are children indulged, drugs are available, mental illness is common and violent movies are watched?

An attempt to point to a different country, Japan, was dismissed immediately without any consideration of they are doing that might be applied to US. Another post deplores finger waving by people outside US. That's me, I assume. One look at global statistics should be  enough to show that US is a world leader in homicides by firearm and also in firearms ownership. The correlation is blindingly obvious.

Well, fine. If you are willing to trade off the lives of children to keep your Wild West dream alive then be prepared for more tragedies involving slaughtered innocents. I will try to hold my tongue but when it happens again ...


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Speaking of prevention... seems the FBI dropped the ball.
> 
> ...




That may be the most shocking aspect to this entire episode. It leaves me speechless. 

I'd like to know why schools, all schools, don't install self-locking doors with a "push-bar" on the inside to let students out in case of fire etc BUT would keep out intruders? It seems like a simple, yet effective, partial solution.  At the main entrance there could be a buzzer with a camera which would be connected to the school office. Someone with a valid reason for visiting the school during school hours ie a parent, police officer, fireman, etc could then gain entrance via intercom and camera BUT would keep out a shooter.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Fascinating thread.
> So many words written trying to find something to blame for mass murder except the ready availability of the AR - 15.
> 
> Do you all suppose that the social problems that are being pointed at do not exist in other countries around the world?
> ...



Well said.

I have the TV going as background noise as I work on the computer. Usually I'll have it tuned to a station that shows "manly shows" 24/7 (well, except from 3-4 am, when they have infomerrcials for the EpiLady and the latest blemish remover).

I notice that the old Westerns from the '50's and '60's have a metric ton of shootings. Bad guys shooting good guys, good guys shooting bad guys, I'm surprised the horses aren't armed as well.  Everyone, even the "good time ladies", carry something lethal.

We haven't evolved very far from that.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal please, we all KNOW about the AR 15, It's been discussed many, many times. What is wrong with trying to figure out why these men are doing this? It matters a lot. No one is ignoring the problem with the guns, but neither do we have a one-track mind, nor do we deserve insults such as- we value our "Wild West dream" over our children. That's just ridiculous.

_All _aspects of this terrible phenomenon are important enough to look at and discuss. Please don't imagine that those here are not hoping for a end to these kinds of weapons.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Fascinating thread.
> So many words written trying to find something to blame for mass murder except the ready availability of the AR - 15.
> 
> Do you all suppose that the social problems that are being pointed at do not exist in other countries around the world?
> ...



Well, the majority of us in the U.S. are not what you're thinking. We are not allowed to post politics here, which I totally agree with. I have just had such a debate on another message board, but then we are a small group that have been together for a long, long time. So we argue, but then we're already like a family and we get over it. 

The problem with arguing about guns, is that it's taken as it will be a ban, which is not true. And that's the sticking point. Just to reiterate, Americans as a whole are not gun happy.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Olivia said:


> ... Just to reiterate, Americans are not gun happy.



:rofl:

Sorry, that just slipped out.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Sorry, that just slipped out.



At least it wasn't on a banana peel.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Fascinating thread.
> So many words written trying to find something to blame for mass murder except the ready availability of the AR - 15.
> 
> Do you all suppose that the social problems that are being pointed at do not exist in other countries around the world?
> ...




America is not like any other country on the planet. We have some of the most, perhaps *the *most, dangerous people of any country. Political correctness prohibits me from naming those groups. Removing all guns from the hands of it's citizens would not stop the killings. Just look at the mass murders in Europe, by radical Muslims. No guns ? No problem. Just run over people with a truck. Or make bombs. 

Taking guns away from law abiding people would place them at the mercy of hundreds of thousands of thugs. In any event, do you honestly believe that criminals would ever turn in their guns ? 

Moreover, there have always been millions of guns in the hands of America's citizens, yet school shooting are a relatively new thing. The problem is NOT guns. The problem is that young men's minds are being warped by a tidal wave of various media violence AND no one is at home to supervise them.  Change those two things and the school shootings will stop.


----------



## rgp (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> America is not like any other country on the planet. We have some of the most, perhaps *the *most, dangerous people of any country. Political correctness prohibits me from naming those groups. Removing all guns from the hands of it's citizens would not stop the killings. Just look at the mass murders in Europe, by radical Muslims. No guns ? No problem. Just run over people with a truck. Or make bombs.
> 
> Taking guns away from law abiding people would place them at the mercy of hundreds of thousands of thugs. In any event, do you honestly believe that criminals would ever turn in their guns ?
> 
> Moreover, there have always been millions of guns in the hands of America's citizens, yet school shooting are a relatively new thing. The problem is NOT guns. The problem is that young men's minds are being warped by a tidal wave of various media violence AND no one is at home to supervise them.  Change those two things and the school shootings will stop.




   "Political correctness prohibits me from naming those groups. "

 That...right there is a huge part of our more recent problems......PC & the fear of not being so, has removed all the honesty from conversation, in fear of insulting someone, stepping on their little toes. . How in the hell can we address / correct a problem if we cannot even see it for what it is, say what it is, and name those that are the problem involving it....

As I said earlier...coddling the guilty is NOT! the answer.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

rgp said:


> "Political correctness prohibits me from naming those groups. "
> 
> That...right there is a huge part of our more recent problems......PC & the fear of not being so, has removed all the honesty from conversation, in fear of insulting someone, stepping on their little toes. . How in the hell can we address / correct a problem if we cannot even see it for what it is, say what it is, and name those that are the problem involving it....
> 
> As I said earlier...coddling the guilty is NOT! the answer.




I absolutely agree with you. I did not mean that I am politically correct. I only meant that there are P.C.er's lurking about, who would joyously jump all over anyone who dared to mention those groups.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> ... We have some of the most, perhaps *the *most, dangerous people of any country ...



Even been to Columbia? San Salvador? Caracas? Ethiopia?

The U.S. ranks *92nd* among the highest intentional homocide countries. That's pretty far down the scale.  



> Taking guns away from law abiding people would place them at the mercy of hundreds of thousands of thugs. In any event, do you honestly believe that criminals would ever turn in their guns ?



Perhaps the bad guys won't turn them in, but they _can_ be _taken_ from them, eventually. Worth a shot? 

Otherwise, the snake will continue to consume its own tail. 



> Moreover, there have always been millions of guns in the hands of America's citizens, yet school shooting are a relatively new thing. The problem is NOT guns. The problem is that young men's minds are being warped by a tidal wave of various media violence AND no one is at home to supervise them. Change those two things and the school shootings will stop.



According to one poll, gun ownership in the U.S. has dropped to its lowest point in nearly 40 years, so there may be some truth to what you say.

Still - can you imagine the uproar if the government tried to censor violence in the media? Would make gun control look like a front-porch discussion among neighbors. 

No one at home? Oh, now you're asking for a _major_ shift in society, everything from jobs availability to cost of living to who knows what else. 

Sorry, folks, June Cleaver has left the building.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> So many words written trying to find something to blame for mass murder except the ready availability of the AR - 15.




The AR-15 is popular among American gun owners [me included.]

Liberals are beating their drums to ban the gun while they make excuses for 'poor little boy Cruz' who pulled the trigger.

I take an entirely different stance [same stance as my American forefathers]... law-aiding citizens should own guns and convicted murderers should be executed !


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Perhaps the bad guys won't turn them in, but they _can_ be _taken_ from them, eventually. Worth a shot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How would you propose to take the guns away from the bad guys ? House to house search ? Use "profiling" to stop everyone who looked remotely suspicious ?

My suggestion re media violence would come about via PARENTAL action. Which is something sorely lacking in today's America.

June Cleaver has left the building?  HA  I'd just love to see you say that to my sister. That gal can be a very angry tiger. She ruled her home like a Marine Corps drill instructor. If one of her boys had dared to come home with green dyed hair she would have wrestled him to the ground and shaved him bald. And she turned out 3 of the finest young men I have ever seen. She is my hero.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The AR-15 is popular among American gun owners [me included.]
> 
> Liberals are beating their drums to ban the gun while they make excuses for 'poor little boy Cruz' who pulled the trigger.
> 
> I take an entirely different stance [same stance as my American forefathers]... law-aiding citizens should own guns and convicted murderers should be executed !



*
YES ! You go , girl.*


----------



## Olivia (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The AR-15 is popular among American gun owners [me included.]
> 
> Liberals are beating their drums to ban the gun while they make excuses for 'poor little boy Cruz' who pulled the trigger.
> 
> I take an entirely different stance [same stance as my American forefathers]... law-aiding citizens should own guns and convicted murderers should be executed !



I haven't seen anyone, liberal or not, that has made excuses for "poor little boy Cruz" except for his public defenders, and I don't know their politics. I certainly have said otherwise.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> How would you propose to take the guns away from the bad guys ? House to house search ? Use "profiling" to stop everyone who looked remotely suspicious ?



Profiling could be used, albeit not quite the way you propose. I was actually thinking that as a bad guy is arrested for whatever reason and is discovered to have a firearm, that will be one less firearm in circulation. 



> My suggestion re media violence would come about via PARENTAL action. Which is something sorely lacking in today's America.



So if there IS no parenting going on, how will the violent media be curbed? Chicken and egg, no? 



> June Cleaver has left the building? HA I'd just love to see you say that to my sister. That gal can be a very angry tiger. She ruled her home like a Marine Corps drill instructor. If one of her boys had dared to come home with green dyed hair she would have wrestled him to the ground and shaved him bald. And she turned out 3 of the finest young men I have ever seen. She is my hero.



That's ONE good person. We need to multiply that by a few hundred million, but again the question of HOW is left hanging.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> How would you propose to take the guns away from the bad guys ? House to house search ? Use "profiling" to stop everyone who looked remotely suspicious ?
> 
> My suggestion re media violence would come about via PARENTAL action. Which is something sorely lacking in today's America.
> 
> June Cleaver has left the building?  HA  I'd just love to see you say that to my sister. That gal can be a very angry tiger. She ruled her home like a Marine Corps drill instructor. If one of her boys had dared to come home with green dyed hair she would have wrestled him to the ground and shaved him bald. And she turned out 3 of the finest young men I have ever seen. She is my hero.


Green hair? My son’s was orange. Fine, educated, upstanding young man, works for the gov’t, myself, I prefer my teal streaks, blends beautifully with auburn curls, fair skin, and dark eyes. May try peach for something different.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Profiling could be used, albeit not quite the way you propose. I was actually thinking that as a bad guy is arrested for whatever reason and is discovered to have a firearm, that will be one less firearm in circulation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When a person is arrested the gun is automatically confiscated.  So, that is obviously not enough. Next ?

As for your other two statements, I'd dearly love to answer but it would be against the rules of no political discussion.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Green hair? My son’s was orange. Fine, educated, upstanding young man, works for the gov’t, myself, I prefer my teal streaks, blends beautifully with auburn curls, fair skin, and dark eyes. May try peach for something different.




I'm happy it worked for you and your son. Not every one has your skills, however. My sisters method worked for her and her 3 boys. For any single mom, successfully raising 3 strapping young boys is a task fit for super-woman.

I've got to run. The Olympics are coming on.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *
> 
> YES ! You go , girl.*




I have a letter from my great grandmother to my grandmother. 
 In it she writes about the local public hanging of a murderer. 
It was one of the last public hangings in Texas.  

 Now the injustice system coddles and frees murderers and other 
destructive criminals so they can continue to prey on innocent society.

Texas still has the death penalty. But it is not used often enough.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I have a letter from my great grandmother to my grandmother.
> In it she writes about the local public hanging of a murderer.
> It was one of the last public hangings in Texas.
> 
> ...


I thought lynchings occurred well into the middle of the twentieth century.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I thought lynchings occurred well into the middle of the twentieth century.




It was an official legal public hanging in 1920s Texas.  

Back then most laws in western Christian nations were Biblically based.   

Death penalty for murderers is a Bible law.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> When a person is arrested the gun is automatically confiscated. So, that is obviously not enough. Next ?



Coupled with a mandated reduction of the importation and manufacture of guns and longer sentences for illegal gun ownership, yes, it would be. 



> As for your other two statements, I'd dearly love to answer but it would be against the rules of no political discussion.



Ah, okay.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I was an official legal public hanging in 1920s Texas.
> 
> Back then most laws in western Christian nations were Biblically based.
> 
> Death penalty for murderers is a Bible law.


So is stoning people for adultery.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> So is stoning people for adultery.



So is smiting.



2 Samuel 6:6-11: God kills someone for accidentally touching the Ark of the Covenant

 Numbers 16:16-49 & 21:5-6: Death to all those who complain (14,950 of them altogether)

 Deuteronomy 28:63: God Rejoices Over Growing Populations So That He Can Rejoice Over Destroying Them

 2 Kings 2:23-24: 42 children are killed by two bears, for calling a prophet "baldy"


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> So is stoning people for adultery.




And now that adultery is legal, it is accepted and rampant just like other evils.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

.

Btw... adultery is still a crime in many US states [but those laws are no longer enforced.]

In the American colonies adultery was a capital crime... as were many other social evils.  

English common law was Biblically-based.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Btw... adultery is still a crime in many US states [but those laws are no longer enforced.]
> 
> ...



How did Benjamin Franklin escape punishment? He was a notorious adulterer.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> How did Benjamin Franklin escape punishment? He was a notorious adulterer.


I suspect it was women who were targeted.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I suspect it was women who were targeted.



Undoubtedly true. You know women use their feminine wiles to make men eat apples they don't want.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Undoubtedly true. You know women use their feminine wiles to make men eat apples they don't want.


I know, it is part of our core values. (couldn’t help myself.)


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I know, it is part of our core values. (couldn’t help myself.)



I figure if they don't have enough gumption to say no, they deserve what they get (worm and all).


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I figure if they don't have enough gumption to say no, they deserve what they get (worm and all).


According to some, evil Eve is alive and well, how dare she work outside the home instead of ensuring her children don’t grow up to be killers? There are many factors which combine to increase the likelihood of a child developing a homicidal personality, but no one, shrink, or profiler, has the key. Human behaviour remains a science of /possibility/probability. Nothing is written in stone.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> According to some, evil Eve is alive and well, how dare she work outside the home instead of ensuring her children don’t grow up to be killers? There are many factors which combine to increase the likelihood of a child developing a homicidal personality, but no one, shrink, or profiler, has the key. Human behaviour remains a science of /possibility/probability. Nothing is written in stone.



Well, Nikolas Cruz' mother should have been standing at the door to prevent him from leaving with his AR-15. Very selfish of her, no?

On the other hand, if she didn't work outside of the home she would be excoriated for not supporting her family. It's one of those can't win situations.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> According to some, evil Eve is alive and well, how dare she work outside the home instead of ensuring her children don’t grow up to be killers? There are many factors which combine to increase the likelihood of a child developing a homicidal personality, but no one, shrink, or profiler, has the key. Human behaviour remains a science of /possibility/probability. Nothing is written in stone.




Question:  Where would you rate, moral strength, self-discipline and fortitude within the picture of who develops a homicidal personality and who does not ?


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Question:  Where would you rate, moral strength, self-discipline and fortitude within the picture of who develops a homicidal personality and who does not ?



Interesting question, it would require a lengthy paper to properly examine the possibilities. Off the top of my head, I will say a person who lacks any self discipline or moral compass, is unable to deal with anger and disappointment in a healthy way, reacts with excessive rage, this person is at increased risk of exhibiting pathologically violent behaviour, particularly through their teens and twenties. For some reason, this applies in the main, to males. Females deal with such differently, as a rule. But that is another paper in the making, far from complete, at this point. I need another year. I believe it is important to note that what constitutes self discipline, and an appropriate moral compass differs according to various personal belief systems.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Interesting question, it would require a lengthy paper to properly examine the possibilities. Off the top of my head, I will say a person who lacks any self discipline or moral compass, is unable to deal with anger and disappointment in a healthy way, reacts with excessive rage, this person is at increased risk of exhibiting pathologically violent behaviour, particularly through their teens and twenties. For some reason, this applies in the main, to males. Females deal with such differently, as a rule. But that is another paper in the making, far from complete, at this point. I need another year. I believe it is important to note that what constitutes self discipline, and an appropriate moral compass differs according to various personal belief systems.




It is my opinion that anyone who lacks those critical character traits,: moral strength, self-discipline and fortitude is in for a rough life. Teaching character to their children is primarily a  parental responsibility. When parents fail in that task, they have failed as parents, and the child pays the price. Tying that in with this thread, 17 children in Parkland Florida, paid the ultimate price.

I'm not real comfortable with the notion of a loosy-goosey approach concerning an "appropriate moral compass".  When I was a teen, the very idea of knocking an old woman down and stealing her purse was unthinkable. Today it happens all too often.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Question:  Where would you rate, moral strength, self-discipline and fortitude within the picture of who develops a homicidal personality and who does not ?



This is an interesting question and I would like to add to it another.

Is there any significant difference between a boy of Muslim background who becomes radicalised to violent jihadism and a Christian boy who absorbs white supremacist propaganda and commits mass murder? Might the path each takes be very similar? Should the same authorities who watch the social media activities of Muslims, local or born overseas, exercise the same surveillance over racial hate sites and any other extremist group ?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> This is an interesting question and I would like to add to it another.
> 
> Is there any significant difference between a boy of Muslim background who becomes radicalised to violent jihadism and a Christian boy who absorbs white supremacist propaganda and commits mass murder? Might the path each takes be very similar? Should the same authorities who watch the social media activities of Muslims, local or born overseas, exercise the same surveillance over racial hate sites and any other extremist group ?




If I understand you correctly, the answer is --- yes.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> This is an interesting question and I would like to add to it another.
> 
> Is there any significant difference between a boy of Muslim background who becomes radicalised to violent jihadism and a Christian boy who absorbs white supremacist propaganda and commits mass murder? Might the path each takes be very similar? Should the same authorities who watch the social media activities of Muslims, local or born overseas, exercise the same surveillance over racial hate sites and any other extremist group ?



I suspect Timothy McVeigh made a believer out of many who would have said no at one time.

I'm actually more afraid of angry born and bred Murcans like Tim McVeigh. There are some scary people hiding out in this country.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> This is an interesting question and I would like to add to it another.
> 
> Is there any significant difference between a boy of Muslim background who becomes radicalised to violent jihadism and a Christian boy who absorbs white supremacist propaganda and commits mass murder? Might the path each takes be very similar? Should the same authorities who watch the social media activities of Muslims, local or born overseas, exercise the same surveillance over racial hate sites and any other extremist group ?


In my professional opinion, there is no significant difference between the two, violent extremism wears many hats. As for surveillance, in Canada, all hate sites of any sort are carefully monitored.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 16, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It is my opinion that anyone who lacks those critical character traits,: moral strength, self-discipline and fortitude is in for a rough life. Teaching character to their children is primarily a  parental responsibility. When parents fail in that task, they have failed as parents, and the child pays the price. Tying that in with this thread, 17 children in Parkland Florida, paid the ultimate price.
> 
> I'm not real comfortable with the notion of a loosy-goosey approach concerning an "appropriate moral compass".  When I was a teen, the very idea of knocking an old woman down and stealing her purse was unthinkable. Today it happens all too often.



Hmmm, certainly you cannot be suggesting that I espouse a “loosely-goosey” approach toward morality simply because I entertain the possibility that one size does not fit all. After all, an overly rigid, oppressive childhood  is one of the greatest 

predictors of future violence. Even without physical violence, it falls under the mantle of emotional abuse. But, let us also remember, sociopaths are made, psychopaths are born that way. They lack the capacity to experience true emotion, feel no empathy or guilt. No parent on the planet can change that. As for blaming the 

parents of young Cruz, we have no idea what sort of upbringing he received, or if he is mentally ill. I prefer to wait for the facts before I pass judgement on anyone other than the perpetrator himself.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> 2 Samuel 6:6-11: God kills someone for accidentally touching the Ark of the Covenant
> 
> Numbers 16:16-49 & 21:5-6: Death to all those who complain (14,950 of them altogether)
> 
> ...




The Bible is filled with historical examples of how God punishes evildoers.
Yet evildoers never learn and history often repeats itself over and over.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 16, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm, certainly you cannot be suggesting that I espouse a “loosely-goosey” approach toward morality simply because I entertain the possibility that one size does not fit all. After all, an overly rigid, oppressive childhood  is one of the greatest
> 
> predictors of future violence. Even without physical violence, it falls under the mantle of emotional abuse. But, let us also remember, sociopaths are made, psychopaths are born that way. They lack the capacity to experience true emotion, feel no empathy or guilt. No parent on the planet can change that. As for blaming the
> 
> parents of young Cruz, we have no idea what sort of upbringing he received, or if he is mentally ill. I prefer to wait for the facts before I pass judgement on anyone other than the perpetrator himself.




No. Shalimar, I was not referring to you.  Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to those who make up their own rules of an appropriate moral compass as they go along. If the moral compass leans in the direction of a societies benefit that is a wonderful thing. An example of that would be Gandhi.  If, however, the moral compass leans toward harm of society, such as mafia dons, and other criminal types, then that obviously can not be allowed. 

The world would be much improved if there were more Gandhi's. Unfortunately, there are vastly more criminal types. The only point I was attempting to make was that not all moral compass's are equally valid. 

P.S.  Sometime we must discuss the differences between a sociopath, a psychopath and an anti-social personality.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 16, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I suspect Timothy McVeigh made a believer out of many who would have said no at one time.
> 
> I'm actually more afraid of angry born and bred Murcans like Tim McVeigh. There are some scary people hiding out in this country.



911 changed the world. True hate based on religion. Fatwas ordering the death of innocents. And a religious reward for doing so.

Big difference from the Tim Mc Veighs acting alone.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

I cannot see the difference. McVeigh blew up a government building that contained a child care centre. I don't know his motivation or his connections but he wanted to do maximum damage and he had some sort of ideology that told him this was acceptable.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The Bible is filled with historical examples of how God punishes evildoers.
> Yet evildoers never learn and history often repeats itself over and over.



I find it difficult to believe that 42 children calling a prophet "baldy" constitutes evil-doing.

Likewise, a growing population is not necessarily a crime. 

Complaining? Not evil in my book. 

Accidently touching some relic? Nope, not evil.



No wonder "evildoers" never learn - they'll get punished whether they're doing good _or_ evil.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 17, 2018)

> As for blaming the
> 
> parents of young Cruz, we have no idea what sort of upbringing he received, or if he is mentally ill.



Of course he is mentally ill, regardless of his upbringing. But I don't think that is really the issue, in any case. The issue is, why was he able to collect an arsenal like that in the first place? He was clearly perceived to be a dangerous nut, and the FBI was informed, and did nothing.



> The Bible is filled with historical examples of how God punishes evildoers.
> Yet evildoers never learn and history often repeats itself over and over.


KingsX. yup, you've hit the nail right on the head. God should punish all evildoers who commit the sin of complaining, as the Bible is gloating about. So the 17 who were just murdered in Florida must have been evildoers, right?  They deserved what happened to them?

You know KingsX, there is actually a contingent of people who believe that the Holocaust happened because all those millions of people were not sufficiently worshipful of God. That was their punishment. Do you also believe that?


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 17, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I suspect Timothy McVeigh made a believer out of many who would have said no at one time.
> 
> I'm actually more afraid of angry born and bred *Murcans *like Tim McVeigh. There are some scary people hiding out in this country.



Murcans? Just what is a "Murcan"?  I assume you don't mean it as a compliment.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 17, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> Murcans? Just what is a "Murcan"? I assume you don't mean it as a compliment.



Murcans ... you and I are Murcans. 

You have to allow for some regional spellig differences, of course. I've seen "Mr'kin" and "Merkan". 

Just think of how LBJ used to say "American" - 

""We are _not_ about to send _Murcan _boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what _Asian_ boys ought to be doing for themselves.""


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 17, 2018)

Thanks, Phil. I thought everyone knew what a Murcan is. Another Texan, GWB, taught me about Yurp.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I find it difficult to believe that 42 children calling a prophet "baldy" constitutes evil-doing.
> 
> Likewise, a growing population is not necessarily a crime.
> 
> ...




In the Bible, God defines evil. 

The Bible does record in the book of Judges about an evil time when everyone did what seemed good to them.

The Bible also says at the evil end of the age people will not be able to discern good from evil.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Sunny said:


> KingsX. yup, you've hit the nail right on the head. God should punish all evildoers who commit the sin of complaining, as the Bible is gloating about. So the 17 who were just murdered in Florida must have been evildoers, right?  They deserved what happened to them?




Those who believe the Bible, know everything happens within the will of God.

The Bible also says that some people die young to save them from a greater evil to come.

.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

We can argue back and forth for years about the cause of the murders of 17 in Parkland, but there is one inescapable fact, society has changed DRAMATICALLY since we were kids. When we went to school, there were NO MASS SHOOTINGS.  Guns were just as plentiful throughout all of American history. So, access to guns can not possibly be the cause of school shootings.

A gun does not have a mind of it's own. A gun does not decide to leave the closet and go on a rampage. Anti-gun fanatics conveniently forget that it takes a person to pick up a gun and use it. How that weapon is used, depends ENTIRELY, on the mind of the user. 

The cause (s) of school shootings are the changes in society. BUT, there is no *one *single change which has brought this plague of violence upon us. As I have repeatedly said, it is a multitude of causes. Each cause, by itself, may not result in school shootings. But when COMBINED, the results can be extreme violence.

Ask yourselves what has changed in the lives of teenagers since we were kids. Put politics aside and look at the problem dispassionately and rationally. Don't let personal politics blind you to the facts. Ask yourselves, what children are doing, or not doing, today that differs from what we did, or did not do, as kids.

Also, ask yourselves how the family unit has changed. Ask yourselves whether discipline has increased or decreased. Ask yourselves whether proper supervision of children has increased or decreased.

In my opinion, the answer is all too obvious.


----------



## chic (Feb 17, 2018)

I agree Traveler. The family unit and its values have changed. This is the problem we have to tackle somehow.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

chic said:


> I agree Traveler. The family unit and its values have changed. This is the problem we have to tackle somehow.




Traveler is right.

But it's the cultural marxist destroyers of family [and gender] who now dictate social mores [and also teach in the schools.]

Cultural marxists don't want a return to moral family values [they have worked hard over the decades to destroy family values.]

Nor do they want true justice [they have worked overtime to coddle criminals and release them to continue to  prey upon society.]

The "solution"  the cultural marxists promote is restricting freedom and banning guns because that fits right into their marxist agenda.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Traveler is right.
> 
> But it's the cultural marxist destroyers of family [and gender] who now dictate social mores [and also teach in the schools.]
> 
> ...




You are absolutely correct. You have more guts than me for posting the truth. I only hope that the cultural Marxists don't start calling you names.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

Please, what is a cultural Marxist? I am unfamiliar with the term.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Please, what is a cultural Marxist? I am unfamiliar with the term.




Cultural Marxism refers to people who are leftist but not quite fully communist. It is a term often used by committed communists which is directed against those who espouse liberalism but who are not yet ready to dedicate their entire lives to world communism, the total destruction of the extended family unit, and any, and all, religious beliefs.

if you google it, there are many sites that go into much more detail.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Cultural Marxism refers to people who are leftist but not quite fully communist. It is a term often used by committed communists which is directed against those who espouse liberalism but who are not yet ready to dedicate their entire lives to world communism, the total destruction of the extended family unit, and any, and all, religious beliefs.
> 
> if you google it, there are many sites that go into much more detail.


Thank you.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 17, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Please, what is a cultural Marxist? I am unfamiliar with the term.



Here's an article from The Guardian explaining cultural Marxism, a term coined by the right wing when they're pretending to be victims:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 17, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We can argue back and forth for years about the cause of the murders of 17 in Parkland, but there is one inescapable fact, society has changed DRAMATICALLY since we were kids. When we went to school, there were NO MASS SHOOTINGS.  Guns were just as plentiful throughout all of American history. So, access to guns can not possibly be the cause of school shootings.
> 
> A gun does not have a mind of it's own. A gun does not decide to leave the closet and go on a rampage. Anti-gun fanatics conveniently forget that it takes a person to pick up a gun and use it. How that weapon is used, depends ENTIRELY, on the mind of the user.
> 
> ...



Makes me wonder how many children you have, Traveler? Perhaps I should ask how many children you've raised because that's more pertinent.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Please, what is a cultural Marxist? I am unfamiliar with the term.




A cultural marxist [knowingly or unknowingly] promotes the Marxist/Leninist Bolshevik cultural agenda.

There is a cultural aspect of Bolshevism. Their aim is to destroy the foundation of Western Christian civilization, the family.  To accomplish this,  cultural marxists foster gender-destroying & family-destroying abominations.

After the 1917 Bolshevik revolution... in addition to destroying churches and murdering millions of Christians... the evil antichrist Bolsheviks in Russia legalized everything that would destroy the single family unit. Bolsheviks legalized liberal divorce, abortion, homosexuals. Bolsheviks pushed womens lib to the point of abolishing the role of wife, mother and homemaker... then put women to work in factories and military.  Bolsheviks wanted communal living with communal meals and communal sex... children would be property of the atheist antichrist Bolshevik state.


Below are insights into the Bolshevik cultural marxist agenda in their own words.

      " Just over a month after the revolution, two decrees established civil marriage and allowed for divorce at the request of either partner Divorces soared in the following period. A complete Code on Marriage, the Family and Guardianship, ratified in October 1918 by the state governing body, the Central Executive Committee (CEC), swept away centuries of patriarchal and ecclesiastical power, and established a new doctrine based on individual rights and the equality of the sexes. "


      " The Bolsheviks also abolished all laws against homosexual acts and other consensual ****** activity."


      " The Bolsheviks anticipated the ability to eliminate the need for certain registrations, for example, marriage registration, for the family will soon be replaced by a more reasonable, more rational differentiation based on separate individuals.  When the fetters of husband and wife have become obsolete, the family will wither away, replaced by revolutionary social relations based on womens equality. Not until then, in the words of Soviet sociologist S. Ia. Volfson, would the duration of marriage be defined exclusively by the mutual inclination of the spouses. Divorce would be accomplished by the locking of a door, as Soviet architect L. Sabsovich envisaged it. "


      " Abortion: Free and on Demand

      In 1920 the Soviet government issued a decree overturning criminal penalties for abortion the first government in the world to do so"


http://www.icl-fi.org/english/esp/59/emancipation.html

.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> A cultural marxist [knowingly or unknowingly] promotes the Marxist/Leninist Bolshevik cultural agenda.
> 
> There is a cultural aspect of Bolshevism. Their aim is to destroy the foundation of Western Christian civilization, the family.  To accomplish this,  cultural marxists foster gender-destroying & family-destroying abominations.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your detailed explanation.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Here's an article from The Guardian explaining cultural Marxism, a term coined by the right wing when they're pretending to be victims:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim


Thanks for the information.


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 17, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Murcans ... you and I are Murcans.
> 
> You have to allow for some regional spellig differences, of course. I've seen "Mr'kin" and "Merkan".
> 
> ...



lol - maybe you're a "mercan", but I am an "American".  Have been for 71+ years.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 17, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> lol - maybe you're a "mercan", but I am an "American". Have been for 71+ years.



Your grammar is better than mine.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Here's an article from The Guardian explaining cultural Marxism, a term coined by the right wing when they're *pretending *to be victims:
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim




One could hardly expect an ultra-leftist newspaper like The Guardian to admit that cultural Marxism not only exists but that The Guardian is part and parcel of Leftist ideology.  People and organizations that are trying to destroy a culture are not likely to admit what they are doing. 

There is no *pretending *about it. Our culture is, *in fact*, coming apart at the seams. The extended family is dead. The nuclear family is crumbling before our very eyes. The battle of the sexes has never been hotter. High-school girls are getting abortions, without the parents ever being notified. The criminal justice system is a mess. We have no control of our own borders. Drug addiction and over-dose deaths are killing more people every year than were killed in all of the Viet Nam War (64,000 in 2017 alone). And, teenage boys, like in Parkland Florida are murdering innocent children.

What is happening to our culture is NOT happening to just conservatives. It is happening to every political group, every socio-economic group, and every race: Asian, Black, Brown, and White alike. We, all of us, are victims.
*
Pretending ? Not bloody likely.*


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Makes me wonder how many children you have, Traveler? Perhaps I should ask how many children you've raised because that's more pertinent.




I don't ask you, or anyone else, about their personal lives. Please, extend the same courtesy to me.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

When I was a teacher wanting to visit US in 1985 I was dubbed an involuntary communist because I was a member of a teaching union. This annoyed me because I was not, nor ever was, any sort of communist. I abhor all forms of totalitarianism.

Nor am I a cultural Marxist even though I believe in and defend workers rights and most progressive social programs. The very term is ridiculous and quite meaningless to anyone who does not subscribe to conspiracy fantasies.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> When I was a teacher wanting to visit US in 1985 I was dubbed an involuntary communist because I was a member of a teaching union. This annoyed me because I was not, nor ever was, any sort of communist. I abhor all forms of totalitarianism.
> 
> Nor am I a cultural Marxist even though I believe in and defend workers rights and most progressive social programs. The very term is ridiculous and quite meaningless to anyone who does not subscribe to conspiracy fantasies.




*Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.*


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

I thought politics were out of bounds.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I thought politics were out of bounds.




Are my recent posts "politics" ?  I mentioned no political party. I was talking about philosophy.

In any event, I want to stop school shootings. You want to stop school shootings. Everyone on this site wants to stop school shootings.

How can we stop school shootings if we can't talk about the causes BEHIND the school shootings ?


----------



## Sunny (Feb 17, 2018)

So, it seems to me that "cultural marxist" is a meaningless, sneering term employed by the far right to redefine liberals?  And what's wrong with just using that term?  Not nasty enough?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Sunny said:


> So, it seems to me that "cultural marxist" is a meaningless, sneering term employed by the far right to redefine liberals?  And what's wrong with just using that term?  Not nasty enough?




Sorry to disagree with you, but the term "cultural Marxist" has a very specific meaning.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Could you name a prominent cultural Marxist and say why this person qualifies for the label ?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Could you name a prominent cultural Marxist and say why this person qualifies for the label ?




Oh, yes.  No problem. Hanoi Jane for, obvious reasons. Just in case you are too young to remember, Jane Fonda traveled to North Viet Nam *during the war* and posed in front of anti-aircraft batteries that shot down American flyers. This propaganda stunt was choreographed by the NVA and Hanoi Jane, aka "Red Jane". While there she continued on her propaganda campaign against her own country. Meanwhile American boys were fighting and dying in South Viet Nam. In my opinion she should have had her passport revoked, and been tried for treason.

    HERE YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE 'RED JANE' POSING SITTING ON THE SEAT OF A NVA ANTI-AIRCRAFT BATTERY.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Yes, I do remember. And by extension, would all of the people protesting against this particular war also be cultural Marxists?

We had our share of them too.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Yes, I do remember. And by extension, would all of the people protesting against this particular war also be cultural Marxists?



*M**any *of them were. To name just a few: Angela Davis (on the FBI's 10 most wanted list and leader of the Communist Party USA), Abbie Hoffman, Bernadine Dohrn (wanted for bombings), Madalyn Murray O'Hair (the woman responsible for getting prayer in schools banned), Allen Ginsberg, James Harris (socialist Workers Party), Tom Hayden (co-founder of the radical group S.D.S), The Weather Underground (infamous for multiple bombings), Jerry Rubin and let us not forget John Kerry who got his start as an anti-war activist, later to be U.S. Senator and in 2004 candidate for U.S. President.

All of the above worked in close partnership to give aid and comfort to the enemy and help the communists win the war. It was a conspiracy  of cultural Marxists that did untold damage to America.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 17, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *M**any *of them were. To name just a few: Angela Davis (on the FBI's 10 most wanted list and leader of the Communist Party USA), Abbie Hoffman, Bernadine Dohrn (wanted for bombings), Madalyn Murray O'Hair (the woman responsible for getting prayer in schools banned), Allen Ginsberg, James Harris (socialist Workers Party), Tom Hayden (co-founder of the radical group S.D.S), The Weather Underground (infamous for multiple bombings), Jerry Rubin and let us not forget John Kerry who got his start as an anti-war activist, later to be U.S. Senator and in 2004 candidate for U.S. President.
> 
> All of the above worked in close partnership to give aid and comfort to the enemy and help the communists win the war. It was a conspiracy  of cultural Marxists that did untold damage to America.



Another variation on Chicken Little the Sky is Falling?

I was a close observer of the Vietnam War. My mileage varied quite widely from yours, to misquote the old Internet bulletin boards.


----------



## 911 (Feb 18, 2018)

Does anyone realize that we (the U.S.) supposedly had 18 school shootings since the beginning of 2018? Not all of the shootings have resulted in injury or death, but nonetheless, there have been 18 incidents of school shootings ranging from just the firing of a gun to an injury and now number 18 resulted in deaths.

The numbers are a bit skewed, but even if some of the shootings only resulted in the discharge of a weapon, this number should act as an eye-opener. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/her...eport-of-18-school-shootings-breaks-down.html


----------



## Traveler (Feb 18, 2018)

Yes, 911, I saw that, and I agree with you. Until the nation wakes up and begins to understand that the shootings are a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem, the slaughter of innocents will continue. 

I thought that the Sandy Hook massacre of the tiniest children would so shock the sensibilities of the nation that people would finally demand an answer to *why *young men are picking up weapons and committing these horrible crimes. 

Unfortunately, I see little or no national discussion of *why *this is happening. Focusing on gun laws is, in my opinion, completely missing the point. Namely, that the minds of so many young men are being warped.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 18, 2018)

> Until the nation wakes up and begins to understand that the shootings  are a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem, the slaughter of  innocents will continue.



On that much, we agree, Traveler. But your version of the underlying problem is very different from mine. Parents are not perfect, and that has often been the case down through history. Parents (usually fathers) have often been absent. That's not the underlying problem. 

What is?  Guns, man, guns.  Back in the good old days you are so fond of, disturbed people did not have access to assault rifles.


----------



## 911 (Feb 18, 2018)

I certainly do not have thee answer to this problem, but for now, school personnel must continue to be hyper vigilant and continue to strongly urge students not to take remarks made by their friends that are related to or have anything to do with bringing a weapon to school as just someone blowing smoke. Students should strongly be advised to consult with any adult in the school anything that is overheard by their fellow student and related to threatening to bring a weapon to school. 

I would also also like to see schools go to using metal detectors when entering a building and also having only one entrance to the school that would be highly monitored. 

For now, protection should be a priority, at least until someone can come up with a plan to limit being at risk. Implementing a plan to reduce the number of weapons in the U.S. is going to be an uphill battle. I, for one, feel much safer when I am out and about and knowing that I have my weapon close at hand.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 18, 2018)

Sunny said:


> On that much, we agree, Traveler. But your version of the underlying problem is very different from mine. Parents are not perfect, and that has often been the case down through history. Parents (usually fathers) have often been absent. That's not the underlying problem.
> 
> What is?  Guns, man, guns.  Back in the good old days you are so fond of, disturbed people did not have access to assault rifles.




It is may be true that what you say about *modern *assault weapons not being available to disturbed people, back in the 1950's. However, many other types of weapons were readily available, the M-1 carbine being just one of many. In case you are unaware, the M-1 carbine will fire a round every time the trigger is pulled. Additionally, pump-style shot-guns have been common place. That gun, when loaded with 00 buckshot is a formidable weapon capable of horrific destruction. 

Sunny, look at it this way.  Can any 18 year-old walk into a gun store and buy a wide variety of weapons? Yes, they can. Just walk in, fill out a bit of paperwork, and walk out with a long gun, all within 30 minutes. The deeper question, Sunny, is *WHY *does one boy take that weapon and kill with it but millions of other boys do not ?

In any event, what would you have us do ? Ban all guns? All rifles, all shot-guns and all pistols ?  That, my friend, is a non-starter. It is *NEVER *going to happen.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 18, 2018)

I think part of the problem with that age group/culture is desensitization. Not just movie or game violence either. It seems like the more outlandish stuff one does the more stupid becomes acceptable. A few weeks ago I posted a story about a younger fan eating poop for a celebration, not a protest. And the fool gets national attention for eating horse poop. People didn't call him out or comment how sick he could get they were just wow, huh.

http://wjla.com/news/offbeat/eagles-fan-eats-horse-poop-while-celebrating-super-bowl-victory

Throw in drugs, emotions. living circumstances and actual medical issues etc this generation or society ain't gonna end well.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 18, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> I think part of the problem with that age group/culture is desensitization. Not just movie or game violence either. It seems like the more outlandish stuff one does the more stupid becomes acceptable. A few weeks ago I posted a story about a younger fan eating poop for a celebration, not a protest. And the fool gets national attention for eating horse poop. People didn't call him out or comment how sick he could get they were just wow, huh.
> 
> http://wjla.com/news/offbeat/eagles-fan-eats-horse-poop-while-celebrating-super-bowl-victory
> 
> Throw in drugs, emotions. living circumstances and actual medical issues etc this generation or society ain't gonna end well.





*Yes, spot on, correct.*


----------



## Sunny (Feb 18, 2018)

Traveler, I would not ban all guns. But I think assault rifles, submachine guns, and those bump stocks should be made illegal immediately. Gun dealers would face heavy penalties for selling them. Maybe
people could be generously compensated for turning that type of weapon in. There is absolutely no justification for anyone owning them, outside of the military or the police.

In addition, there has to be more enforcement of not selling to obviously disturbed individuals. There should be a registry of people who are likely to commit these mass shootings, similar to the registry of
sex offenders.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 18, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Traveler, I would not ban all guns. But I think assault rifles, submachine guns, and those bump stocks should be made illegal immediately. Gun dealers would face heavy penalties for selling them. Maybe
> people could be generously compensated for turning that type of weapon in. There is absolutely no justification for anyone owning them, outside of the military or the police.
> 
> In addition, there has to be more enforcement of not selling to obviously disturbed individuals. There should be a registry of people who are likely to commit these mass shootings, similar to the registry of
> sex offenders.




I, personally, would have no problem with the banning of those weapons, but I'm afraid that the NRA would fight that tooth and nail. I certainly agree that there is no valid reason for selling or owning guns like that. They are of no use for hunting, so that leaves just target practice.  

Truly, I know next to nothing about those types of weapons or why anyone would want them. Heck, I don't even hunt and I never have had any interest in doing so.

Perhaps, our friend 911 could help us out here. If he was at a combat range, could he get off practically an unlimited amount of rounds with an automatic hand gun, provided he had a 20 loaded clips on his person ? If the answer is yes, wouldn't that be just as deadly as an AR-15 ?


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

911 said:


> Does anyone realize that we (the U.S.) supposedly had 18 school shootings since the beginning of 2018? Not all of the shootings have resulted in injury or death, but nonetheless, there have been 18 incidents of school shootings ranging from just the firing of a gun to an injury and now number 18 resulted in deaths.
> 
> The numbers are a bit skewed, but even if some of the shootings only resulted in the discharge of a weapon, this number should act as an eye-opener.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/15/her...eport-of-18-school-shootings-breaks-down.html




Were all those government schools ??

Good incentive for homeschooling.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I, personally, would have no problem with the banning of those weapons, but I'm afraid that the NRA would fight that tooth and nail. I certainly agree that there is no valid reason for selling or owning guns like that. They are of no use for hunting, so that leaves just target practice.
> 
> Truly, I know next to nothing about those types of weapons or why anyone would want them. Heck, I don't even hunt and I never have had any interest in doing so.
> 
> Perhaps, our friend 911 could help us out here. If he was at a combat range, could he get off practically an unlimited amount of rounds with an automatic hand gun, provided he had a 20 loaded clips on his person ? If the answer is yes, wouldn't that be just as deadly as an AR-15 ?




The second amendment says nothing about hunting and target practice.
A well armed citizen militia was for protecting the people and society 
from enemies... sometimes that enemy is a home or school invader...
sometimes that enemy is oppressive government.

In the Texas Declaration of Independence,  Texans list many oppressions 
conducted by the Mexican government against Texas citizens.

Here is one of them:

"It has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defence, 
the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments."

https://www.tsl.texas.gov/treasures/republic/declaration.html


As Thomas Jefferson said:

" God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion."

" What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? "

" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "


https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-12-02-0348

.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 18, 2018)

I think the idea of protecting yourself from a government gone bad with a few guns is laughable. 

Have you _seen_ lately what the U.S. armed forces have at their disposal? Even what many urban _police forces_ have? 

The real world isn't _Red Dawn_, no matter what the bunker-buddies in Montana tell each other.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I think the idea of protecting yourself from a government gone bad with a few guns is laughable.
> 
> Have you _seen_ lately what the U.S. armed forces have at their disposal? Even what many urban _police forces_ have?
> 
> The real world isn't _Red Dawn_, no matter what the bunker-buddies in Montana tell each other.





What you are saying is this...  if citizens do nothing early on to curtail government oppression
and once an oppressive government has all the weapons necessary to make war against its
own people to prevent a successful rebellion  [the civil war comes to mind]... then the only 
way that government will be overthrown is by implosion, foreign invasion and/or an act of God.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> What you are saying is this...  if citizens do nothing early on to curtail government oppression
> and once an oppressive government has all the weapons necessary to make war against its
> own people to prevent a successful rebellion  [the civil war comes to mind]... then the only
> way that government will be overthrown is by implosion, foreign invasion and/or an act of God.



Who makes the decision on oppression.? What is an 'oppressive' government?

Isn't raising taxes a form of oppression?


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> What you are saying is this... if citizens do nothing early on to curtail government oppression
> and once an oppressive government has all the weapons necessary to make war against its
> own people to prevent a successful rebellion [the civil war comes to mind]... then the only
> way that government will be overthrown is by implosion, foreign invasion and/or an act of God.



No, I wasn't saying that. Those are _your_ words. 

So, early on, we should take our little 9mms and our scary-looking tactical rifles with a few clips and oppose the government? 

What would our targets be? Mayors? Senators? The President? 

What do you think would happen in that scenario? This isn't 1776 anymore, nor even 1865. The government's tools are a BIT more advanced than what civilian "militias" have. 

But you're right about the means of overthrow. We should have learned those lessons a long time ago, with the number of hot-spots we've thrown ourselves into around the world. Those places could not overthrow their governments, so we did a "foreign invasion" and saved their biscuits. 

And yes, we lost a few of those as well. 

My thought is - if you want change, work *with* the system or work *within* the system, but don't work *against* the system.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 18, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Who makes the decision on oppression.? What is an 'oppressive' government?



Evidently, any government that isn't to someone's liking. 



> Isn't raising taxes a form of oppression?



I don't know. Some places like Amsterdam have tax rates of 36.55%, 40.85%, and 51.95%, but every social need is provided for and the people rank among the happiest in the world. 

(To be fair, they've actually _lowered_ their tax rates - they used to be up around ~70% for the upper brackets.)


----------



## TonyK (Feb 18, 2018)

My first teaching job was at a high school which was all over the front pages of America because of federal school busing. I went past a metal detector every day. There were more state troopers inside the school than there were students. Fights occurred every week. Some teachers read newspapers during their classes. I wouldn't see some students for weeks at a time. Those kids lost out on an education. 

Today's kids recognize they can't vote, but they can organize and protest. Last month there was a lockdown drill in the school that I was subbing at. I wear a badge with a key on the chain. The key isn't for me to open up the door when we all come back in from recess.

The key around my neck is for locking the classroom door when a shooter has entered the school. My duty is to protect and shield my class from harm. As a veteran I'll gladly assume responsibility for deterring some misguided assassin. I hope it never comes to that but understand why America seems unable to resolve this problem.  Four million high school students will be eligible to vote by the next election. They are already making a ton of noise and standing up for their rights. The solution is out there and I hope we find it.


----------



## TarheelGal (Feb 18, 2018)

The kids who survived the massacre in Florida are planning a march on Washington.  They say they are being neglected by the adults in charge and the march will not be associated with either political party.  I hope they get a good reception and that they spur adults to take a look at the whole gun safety issue.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 18, 2018)

TonyK,  yes indeed, the students of today, will be voting tomorrow.  There is only one problem. The 2nd Amendment. 

Voters could elect the most liberal person imaginable to the Presidency and that person might be able to shove through both Houses of Congress a total ban on any, or all, guns.  But, in the end, the 9 Supreme Court Justices will have the final say whether such a ban is, or is not, Constitutional.

There exists another possible way to achieve the ban. That would be if 2/3rds of the states voted to repeal the 2nd Amendment. If that happened, then the U.S. Congress could write any ban, full or partial, that they chose. But, I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Who makes the decision on oppression.? What is an 'oppressive' government?
> 
> Isn't raising taxes a form of oppression?






SifuPhil said:


> I don't know. Some places like Amsterdam have tax rates of 36.55%, 40.85%, and 51.95%, but every social need is provided for and the people rank among the happiest in the world.
> 
> (To be fair, they've actually _lowered_ their tax rates - they used to be up around ~70% for the upper brackets.)





Anyone here remember the infamous tax on tea and the famous Boston Tea Party ??

Or do cultural marxist government run schools no longer teach that or teach it as a negative ??


----------



## 911 (Feb 18, 2018)

Check this out:


----------



## 911 (Feb 18, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I, personally, would have no problem with the banning of those weapons, but I'm afraid that the NRA would fight that tooth and nail. I certainly agree that there is no valid reason for selling or owning guns like that. They are of no use for hunting, so that leaves just target practice.
> 
> Truly, I know next to nothing about those types of weapons or why anyone would want them. Heck, I don't even hunt and I never have had any interest in doing so.
> 
> Perhaps, our friend 911 could help us out here. If he was at a combat range, could he get off practically an unlimited amount of rounds with an automatic hand gun, provided he had a 20 loaded clips on his person ? If the answer is yes, wouldn't that be just as deadly as an AR-15 ?



When I was down at the FBI training facility in Quantico, VA, I was shown numerous weapons that had been confiscated from drug dealers. Some of those weapons are pretty sophisticated and included one handgun that had a 300 round clip housed inside of an outer shell. It looked like a box mounted on a pistol. They also showed us a machine gun that also included a grenade launcher (M4 Carbine Commando with an M203 Grenade Launcher). The FBI Agent that was in charge of the weapons at the training facility showed us weapons that I never even knew existed. 

Like I said earlier, if I am firing at someone close range, I much prefer the 12 gauge pump. If I was close enough, I could blow a hole through a man large enough to sick may hand and arm through.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

TonyK said:


> My first teaching job was at a high school which was all over the front pages of America because of federal school busing. I went past a metal detector every day. There were more state troopers inside the school than there were students. Fights occurred every week. Some teachers read newspapers during their classes. I wouldn't see some students for weeks at a time. Those kids lost out on an education.
> 
> *Today's kids recognize they can't vote, but they can organize and protest.*
> 
> .




I was a teenager during the federal government forced school busing.
I went to a huge parent/student protest at a Ft Worth school board meeting.
There was a show of uniformed police to overtly keep the peace. I was a patsy
to an undercover police operation that shut down the protest.  Here is how it 
came down.  I was just standing there listening to some of the protesters
when a woman grabbed my arm, pointed her finger in my face and yelled
very loudly... "you want to send my child to school with a bunch of n..... "
I was shocked because I did not know the woman and like the other students
and parents there,  I was protesting the opposite of what she accused me of.
Next thing I know,  I am being dragged out by two uniformed policemen 
and accused of inciting a riot.  I knew I had said or done no such thing so
I told the police I was going back to the protest... they said if I did that,
they would arrest me for rioting.  Again,  I was a patsy to an undercover
police operation. Other protesters didn't mind the police dragging me out..
because they had been fooled into thinking  I was the enemy. It was a
very well-executed government psy-op. But it was a wake up call for me.
They picked on the wrong weak-looking demure teenage girl. I became
very vocal about government oppression... which includes staged government
psy-ops like I was a victim too.  Government agents are so good at doing
that sort of thing... you can be in the same room as the undercover staged
psy-op event and not realize it is happening.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

Horrendous. (Referring to Ike's video.)


----------



## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The second amendment says nothing about hunting and target practice.
> A well armed citizen militia was for protecting the people and society
> from enemies... sometimes that enemy is a home or school invader...
> sometimes that enemy is oppressive government.
> ...




Here's another interesting piece of history.

In 1831 the Anglo settlers of Gonzales, Texas asked for a cannon to protect them from hostile Indians.
The Mexican government provided a cannon but said it reserved the right to take it back at anytime.

1835 Mexican soldiers were sent to Gonzales to confiscate the cannon.  The Gonzales settlers sent back 
notice that they were keeping both the cannon and the soldiers [as POWs.]   

So the Mexican government sent over a hundred troops to confiscate the cannon.  

Gonzales Anglo settlers along with a militia company of thirty mounted Indian fighters prepared the cannon
for battle.  Their ladies made a flag for the battle, an image of the cannon and the words:  "Come and Take It"

http://www.usflags.com/images/thumbs/0000731.jpeg


The battle of Gonzales is considered to be the first battle of the Texas Revolution. 

"Come and Take It"  became one of the rallying cries of the Texas Revolution.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Here's another interesting piece of history.
> 
> In 1831 the Anglo settlers of Gonzales, Texas asked for a cannon to protect them from hostile Indians.
> The Mexican government provided a cannon but said it reserved the right to take it back at anytime.
> ...



Again who made the decision that it was an oppressive government. They were all British at the time where they not ruled from overseas.

The U.S. Isn't ruled by anyone else now. A leader now rebelling against the U.S. Government would be guilty of treason under the Constitution.


----------



## oldman (Feb 19, 2018)

911--Looking at the video in post 200, there is no doubt in my mind that if a shooter had a weapon like that and went into a school, many, many more lives would be lost. Is that type of weapon with that type of magazine actually legal in the U.S.? The last that I heard is that a gun owner that wishes to own a fully automatic weapon has to jump through hoops to get a special permit in order to own a fully automatic weapon. Is this correct?


----------



## oldman (Feb 19, 2018)

Next thing to worry about is that we don't have any copy cat killers out there. Kids should be able to go to school without worrying about "is today the day that I will have to run for my life?" I agree with whoever wrote that teachers and students need to be hyper vigilant and don't take any off the cuff remarks made by someone that they are going to kill another student or that they are going to bring a weapon to school. If anyone hears anything along the lines that someone is thinking about "making the rounds", they should report it post haste and not take the position "Oh, he is just blowing off a bit."


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

Yesterday this is what one of our stupid federal parliamentarians posted on Twitter.







You've got to wonder about this level of insensitivity.

Naturally members of the Green Party are very concerned. They have reported him to the police.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 19, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Yesterday this is what one of our stupid federal parliamentarians posted on Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes!


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 19, 2018)

oldman said:


> 911--Looking at the video in post 200, there is no doubt in my mind that if a shooter had a weapon like that and went into a school, many, many more lives would be lost. Is that type of weapon with that type of magazine actually legal in the U.S.? The last that I heard is that a gun owner that wishes to own a fully automatic weapon has to jump through hoops to get a special permit in order to own a fully automatic weapon. Is this correct?



Reagan signed into law in 1986.  You cannot buy a fully automatic rifle manufactured after 1986 (civilians).

The previous guns were grandfathered.  They are available on the market at an exorbitant price .

What we are talking about here is a semi automatic called the AR-15 type of weapon.

It was used in the Vegas shooting, the Texas church shooting, and the present Florida shooting as well as others.

In the Texas shooting I was particularly appalled because the shooter executed young children as young as 5 and made sure they were dead.

Then there is lots of talk and nothing is done and then it becomes business as usual till the next shooting.

But this one is different.  These are high school students, demanding change, organizing, and I think they are going to make a difference.

The gun lobby wants armed guards at schools and possibly churches.   Third world style I call it.


----------



## rgp (Feb 19, 2018)

Camper6 said..........


"The gun lobby wants armed guards at schools and possibly churches. Third world style I call it."

I can remember years ago seeing such things , at border crossings, airports & such in many of the 'foreign' reports...and thinking how glad I was to live here , where we do not need such things.

Well.....guess what.

It appears our largest threat of terrorism isn't from a foreign nation / faction encroaching our shores....it is from within.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

rgp


> It appears our largest threat of terrorism isn't from a foreign nation / faction encroaching our shores....it is from within.


=========================================================================================

Will Durant, the 20 century's greatest historian once wrote,

*"No great civilization is ever destroyed from without, until it has destroyed itself from within"*


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Will Durant, the 20 century's greatest historian once wrote,
> 
> *"No great civilization is ever destroyed from without, until it has destroyed itself from within"*



A truism if there ever was one. I have just seen the film _Darkest Hour _and, allowing for poetic license, the film did depict the strength of the British people when faced with the probability of Nazi invasion as was happening to European nations. They were united in their resolve to resist, not capitulate. The centre held and the invasion never took place.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> TonyK,  yes indeed, the students of today, will be voting tomorrow.  There is only one problem. The 2nd Amendment.
> 
> Voters could elect the most liberal person imaginable to the Presidency and that person might be able to shove through both Houses of Congress a total ban on any, or all, guns.  But, in the end, the 9 Supreme Court Justices will have the final say whether such a ban is, or is not, Constitutional.
> 
> There exists another possible way to achieve the ban. That would be if 2/3rds of the states voted to repeal the 2nd Amendment. If that happened, then the U.S. Congress could write any ban, full or partial, that they chose. But, I wouldn't hold my breath.



The Second Amendment isn't that big of an issue when it comes to certain weapons.

Connecticut issued a ban on semi automatic rifles like the AR-15 which was used in this murder of innocents as well.

An appeal by the gun lobby was rejected and it was ruled Constitutional.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It is may be true that what you say about *modern *assault weapons not being available to disturbed people, back in the 1950's. However, many other types of weapons were readily available, the M-1 carbine being just one of many. In case you are unaware, the M-1 carbine will fire a round every time the trigger is pulled. Additionally, pump-style shot-guns have been common place. That gun, when loaded with 00 buckshot is a formidable weapon capable of horrific destruction.
> 
> Sunny, look at it this way.  Can any 18 year-old walk into a gun store and buy a wide variety of weapons? Yes, they can. Just walk in, fill out a bit of paperwork, and walk out with a long gun, all within 30 minutes. The deeper question, Sunny, is *WHY *does one boy take that weapon and kill with it but millions of other boys do not ?
> 
> In any event, what would you have us do ? Ban all guns? All rifles, all shot-guns and all pistols ?  That, my friend, is a non-starter. It is *NEVER *going to happen.



Banning all guns is not the issue here and never will be.  That's the claim by the gun lobby.   The issue is the weapon of choice, the semi automatic rifle designed for the military which is capable of killing many people in a very short time and you don't even have to aim it.

The last three mass murders, Vegas, Texas and Florida.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 19, 2018)

So now, he stands there with his head down. I bet his head wasn't down when he was shooting all those kids. I bet he felt powerful and brave when he was tearing up their flesh. And now in this thread, we already forget!!! SEVENTEEN  LIVES and all you all can do here is argue about gun rights. It's sickening!


----------



## BobF (Feb 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Banning all guns is not the issue here and never will be.  That's the claim by the gun lobby.   The issue is the weapon of choice, the semi automatic rifle designed for the military which is capable of killing many people in a very short time and you don't even have to aim it.
> 
> The last three mass murders, Vegas, Texas and Florida.



I keep seeing it used as a machine gun, which it is not and can not be such, by law and design.    Call them what you  want and it is still a legal rifle, AR 15 and others are illegal in the US and are not to be sold in their military version to civilians.             

As long as it takes the operators finger to pull the trigger to fire a shot the gun is not a military style machine gun that will continue to fire as long as the trigger is held and bullets remain to be shot.    AUTO FIRE weapons are illegal and are not sold to civilians in the US.   States may also pass laws to support the federal gun laws.

I was watching NBC news tonight as saw them showing those kids complaining about military weapons being used to kill civilians.  Who is paying for all those mob scenes and the lies about the guns in the US.   Who is paying for having all the young folks improperly trained.   Guns can be dangerous for all, whether single shot or machine guns.   The big difference is that all weapons allowed to be sold to civilians are restricted to one shot per trigger pull.    The multiple shots per trigger pull are illegal and are not allowed to be sold in the US.

We need to stop lieing to the folks in the US and telling them all military style weapons are machine guns and rapid fire weapons, they are not.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

:bighug: Bobf !!! So good to see you posting. Where have you been?


----------



## Ruthanne (Feb 19, 2018)

BobF said:


> I keep seeing it used as a machine gun, which it is not and can not be such, by law and design.    Call them what you  want and it is still a legal rifle, AR 15 and others are illegal in the US and are not to be sold in their military version to civilians.
> 
> As long as it takes the operators finger to pull the trigger to fire a shot the gun is not a military style machine gun that will continue to fire as long as the trigger is held and bullets remain to be shot.    AUTO FIRE weapons are illegal and are not sold to civilians in the US.   States may also pass laws to support the federal gun laws.
> 
> ...


Are you sure the automatic weapons such as the AR 15 are illegal?  I know of some who have bought them.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 19, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> Are you sure the automatic weapons such as the AR 15 are illegal?  I know of some who have bought them.




AR-15 is not automatic.

It is a popular rifle among gun owners.


----------



## Ruthanne (Feb 19, 2018)

Okay.  It is an assault weapon and semi-automatic.  Anyways the ban on them ended in 2004.

*Colt AR-15*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


_For the type of weapon sometimes misidentified as AR-15, see AR-15 style rifle._
_"AR-15" redirects here. For the select-fire rifle of a similar name, see ArmaLite AR-15. For other uses, see AR-15 (disambiguation)._
The *Colt AR-15* is a lightweight, 5.56×45mm, magazine-fed, gas-operated semi-automatic rifle. It was designed to be manufactured with the extensive use of aluminum alloys and synthetic materials. It is a semi-automatic version of the United States military M16 rifle. Colt's Manufacturing Company currently uses the *AR-15* trademark for its line of semi-automatic AR-15 rifles that are marketed to civilian and law-enforcement customers.

The ban:

*Federal Assault Weapons Ban*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


_This article is about the U.S. Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 that expired in 2004. For other assault weapons bans in the U.S., see Assault weapons legislation in the United States._

President Bill Clinton signing the bill into law.​
The *Federal Assault Weapons Ban* (*AWB*)—officially, the *Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act*—is a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a United States federal law that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms it defined as assault weapons, as well as certain ammunition magazines it defined as "large capacity".
The ten-year ban was passed by the U.S. Congress on September 13, 1994, following a close 52–48 vote in the Senate, and signed into law by then President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment, and it expired on September 13, 2004, in accordance with its sunset provision.
Several constitutional challenges were filed against provisions of the ban, but all were rejected by reviewing courts. There were multiple attempts to renew the ban, but none succeeded.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 19, 2018)

BobF said:


> I keep seeing it used as a machine gun, which it is not and can not be such, by law and design.    Call them what you  want and it is still a legal rifle, AR 15 and others are illegal in the US and are not to be sold in their military version to civilians.
> 
> As long as it takes the operators finger to pull the trigger to fire a shot the gun is not a military style machine gun that will continue to fire as long as the trigger is held and bullets remain to be shot.    AUTO FIRE weapons are illegal and are not sold to civilians in the US.   States may also pass laws to support the federal gun laws.
> 
> ...



So it's not an automatic? So what?

Las Vegas 58 dead, Texas shooting 26 dead, Florida shooting 17 dead, and I don't know how many injured and suffering from trauma after seeing their fellow students shot.

The AR-15 semi automatic weapon was designed and sold to the military.  It became popular with the civilian population.

It is the weapon of choice for those who want to kill as many people in as short a time as possible.

It has been banned in Connecticut and it has been ruled constitutional to do so.  An appeal from the gun lobby was rejected.

No one is lying to the folks in the U.S. So you have to pull the trigger.  So what.  And the guy in Vegas had bump stocks which for all intents and purposes made it an automatic.

The family of the inventor of the AR-15 stated that in interviews with their father that he stated it was invented by him to give the American soldier an edge in battle.

The semi automatic version was sold to armies around the world. That's what it was designed for.

This last murder is different in the fact that those students are not going to let it rest.

Perhaps if they released the video of the Baptist church showing the gunman methodically executing children you might change your mind.


----------



## Rainee (Feb 20, 2018)

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts ... from Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia .


 I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
* Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent ...
* Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent ...
* Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!


In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!


While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.


Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns ...'  what do you make of this .. its not the guns that are the problem its the people who use them ! agree with me ?


----------



## Pam (Feb 20, 2018)

https://www.truthorfiction.com/australias-gun-laws-have-led-to-higher-crime-rates/

https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks Pam. That saved me the trouble of looking for the evidence.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 20, 2018)

Rainee said:


> Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts ... from Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia .
> 
> 
> I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:
> ...



Now give me the stats for mass murders like the one that took place in Por Arthur and spurred the government to enact gun reform.

And how about a link to your statistics.

Percentages mean nothing.If one murder is the record and another takes place it's a 100 percent increase.


----------



## BobF (Feb 20, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks Pam. That saved me the trouble of looking for the evidence.



One or the other, take you pick.   Where is the proof of one over the other.


----------



## BobF (Feb 20, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> :bighug: Bobf !!! So good to see you posting. Where have you been?



Been around and wondering myself.    Post but never find my post.   Not sure what is happening, just keep on trying.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 20, 2018)

Here you are, Bob.



> https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...gs-australia-20-years-how-did-they-do-n597091
> 
> The mass shooting that prompted Australia’s crackdown happened in Tasmania, in 1996, when 28-year-old Martin Bryant shot and killed 35 people in a café. Another 23 were injured.
> 
> ...


----------



## BobF (Feb 20, 2018)

KingsX said:


> AR-15 is not automatic.
> 
> It is a popular rifle among gun owners.



A lot of confusion here.   The guns that fire automatically are illegal and the AR 15 and many other semiautomatic weapons are mistakenly considered to be fully automatic.    They are truly semi automatic in all aspects as they fire, clear, bring next bullet into position for firing but do not fire until the trigger is pulled once again.   The full automatic, machine guns, would do all the same but would also fire the next bullet and the next bullet till the trigger is allowed to rest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm

A *semi-automatic firearm*, or *self-loading firearm*,  is one that not only fires a bullet each time the trigger is pulled,  but also performs all steps necessary to prepare it to discharge  again—assuming cartridges  remain in the firearm's feed device. Typically, this includes  extracting and ejecting the spent cartridge case from the firing  chamber, re-cocking the firing mechanism, and loading a new cartridge  into the firing chamber. To fire again, the trigger is released and  re-pressed.
.......................

That those young folks get taught incorrectly is bring false claims to the commission and confuse the arguments for the people and commissions to concern with.    No wonder folks are so confused.    We can't even keep our definitions correct.

We have single shot weapons where the user does all including clearing, and reloading, and firing.

Semi automatic where the clearing and reloading is done for the user but no bullets are fired.

The most deadly, and unavailable to the common public are the full automatic, machine guns, that will fire when the trigger is pulled, clearing, reloading a bullet, and automatically firing another round if the trigger is pulled.

All this saying that these semi automatic guns are just like the military is wrong.   Public sales are for the semi automatic and military are for the full automatic.    Much the same  name but much different in how they operate.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 20, 2018)

Yes, it's always a good idea to check dubious claims like this with Snopes.

I agree with Olivia, arguing about technical definitions of "automatic" vs. "semi-automatic" and all the minute details of "gun rights" is sickening, when we see the devastating carnage caused by guns. Guns, not knives, not two-by-fours, not axes,not ropes. Those items all have other uses besides killing or wounding people. Guns exist only to kill, except for those used only in target practice. 

In the modern world, there usually isn't too much justification for hunting either, but let's leave that out of it. Let's even leave small, non-automatic pistols out of it. What possible justification can there be for still selling these semi-automatic weapons to any nut case who enters a gun shop? 

For the few people on this forum who are so heatedly defending their "gun rights," let me ask you:  how would you feel about this if someone close to you was murdered by one of these maniacs in a mass shooting?  Would you then be worried about your "rights" as a gun owner?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 20, 2018)

I am speechless to sum up this man. 
I think he must be one in a million but perhaps I am wrong and there are millions of other men who think as he does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHqJxtr4rI


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2018)

_* AR-15s
Pellet guns
Kool-Aid
Jets
Baseball bats
Tickle me Elmo 

I say we ban ‘em all

Challenge the kooks to get creative for the next one

*_


----------



## Robusta (Feb 20, 2018)

Just a note, I may be wrong here.  The variant of the M-16 that is standard issue now,  M-! or M-4 I think is not a true automatic. The Pentagon found that soldiers were using the "spray and pray" method of shooting. Discharging thousands of rounds most of them to no effect.
Issue rifles now fire a three round burst. I don't know whether they have an override for full auto or not.


----------



## rgp (Feb 20, 2018)

His property / his choice. If he actually feels he has made a difference ? And feels good about it ? Fine.

But in the video he says ....is the right to own a weapon like this / this weapon, [however he worded it] worth a life. He says no...OK, his opinion but ! The right to own that weapon , that weapon, did not take a life...a person did.

Remember Boston?....well excuse me now, I'm going out to the garage & cut my pressure cooker in half.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 20, 2018)

.

Odd how there are so many foreigners on this forum advocating confiscating legal guns from US citizens.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 20, 2018)

Anyone on this thread have children or grandchildren that attend school?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 20, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I am speechless to sum up this man.
> I think he must be one in a million but perhaps I am wrong and there are millions of other men who think as he does.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JHqJxtr4rI




Why are you speechless ?  He did exactly what you want. He destroyed his weapon.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 20, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Percentages mean nothing.If one murder is the record and another takes place it's a 100 percent increase.




Exactly correct. Few people understand how statistics can be used to mislead people.


----------



## rgp (Feb 20, 2018)

I'm not so sure he actually destroyed it...he didn't cut the receiver , he only shortened the barrel. He may have actually committed a federal crime on video. He, effectively cut a gun down , to under Fed standards . Creating an AR-15 pistol ? Perhaps someone here more knowledgeable than I will chime in.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 20, 2018)

rgp said:


> His property / his choice. If he actually feels he has made a difference ? And feels good about it ? Fine.
> 
> But in the video he says ....is the right to own a weapon like this / this weapon, [however he worded it] worth a life. He says no...OK, his opinion but ! The right to own that weapon , that weapon, did not take a life...a person did.
> 
> Remember Boston?....well excuse me now, I'm going out to the garage & cut my pressure cooker in half.



What he said was is that right worth a life.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 20, 2018)

rgp said:


> I'm not so sure he actually destroyed it...he didn't cut the receiver , he only shortened the barrel. He may have actually committed a federal crime on video. He, effectively cut a gun down , to under Fed standards . Creating an AR-15 pistol ? Perhaps someone here more knowledgeable than I will chime in.



The cutting was symbolic. What he said was that gun will never take a life.

I believe him.


----------



## BobF (Feb 20, 2018)

Lots of responses since my comment about who is paying for all these folks to get up an tell lies about the weapons being sold and used in the US.    It seems that most do not care what a waste of our money is taking place telling all these lies and forgetting about truth.   Pretty much more of the hate Trump nonsense that took place moments after Trump was decided to become President of the US.   Instant mobs, complete with lots of signs showing their hate.   Time for honesty for the people of the US and less time wasted for the Congress to keep on redefining what is gun safety.    It is all pretty clear now but we need more clear minded folks involved in help beyond the lies being tossed back at the Congress.   No reason for ending gun existence or private ownership.   We would do better if we had good control of our folks in the same way the Swiss do.

Time for the US to stop playing in Congress and to get serious with our Constitution and  the meanings of how we should be living for ourselves and others.    Each side of Congress needs to reconstruct with newer people and let the Constitution take over.    There is no need for any party  on either side.   No such thing in the Constitution at all.   Neither party we now have has enough folks to actually run this country.   It is time for both to sides to reconsider and start over within the Constitutions guidelines.

It is the people and the Congress that are the problem.    Fix them and it will be easier to fix our problems.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 20, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Anyone on this thread have children or grandchildren that attend school?



Yes. I live in Canada but my grandson attends school in the U.S.A.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 20, 2018)

BobF said:


> It is the people and the Congress that are the problem.    Fix them and it will be easier to fix our problems.



If it is the people and the Congress that are the problem, who do you propose to fix them?


----------



## rgp (Feb 20, 2018)

*Repairing a rifle*

All the man in the video need do is , re-machine the barrel...and it is once again an operational weapon...just shortened.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 20, 2018)

uh...HUH????


----------



## rgp (Feb 20, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> uh...HUH????



Talking about the man in the video that cut his gun down....The original thread was closed. Seems adults cannot be allowed discuss a subject , in a civil manner here. Even though the 'freedoms' of life in America are often touted so proudly in this same forum.


----------



## Robusta (Feb 20, 2018)

As was pointed out, the man committed a federal crime in shortening the rifle more than the legal length. He does not need to do a thing to the rifle to make it operational, it may help to ream the burr off the muzzle,but probably not essential for use.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 20, 2018)

This thread is closed. https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/34347-NOTICE-All-Members-Please-Read


----------

