# A thought experiment for those who do not believe some or most of what we have been told about Covid 19.



## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

I'm really trying to understand your points of view and I am not trying to set you up for criticism or ridicule.  I'd just like to know what you would need to change your mind.

So, let's assume that most of what we've been told about Covid-19 is reasonably accurate.  (You can use your own definition of reasonably accurate.)  What sort of reporting or who would you need to hear from to trust that what has been widely reported is correct?


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## SetWave (Apr 10, 2021)

I really feel ya, amigo but it just ain't gonna happen. Nobody's mind will change no matter what good evidence you present. If they wanna believe the earth is flat and the orange slime is their savior, qanonannoying fake news will win out every time. "Stupid is as stupid does."

Anyone open to a good debate might listen . . . but, that's not what we're dealin' with here.

So, I wish ya lots a luck. I really do.


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## old medic (Apr 10, 2021)

COVID.... is basically the common cold 
Covid 19 is the latest version of this common cold (humanly modified???)
There is no doubt its a bad bug and devastating to folks that are already 
burdened with health issues. 
The end of this is im afraid is not done


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

Covid is the common cold?
I don’t think it is and according to the mayo clinic, there are differences. 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...ld-flu-and-allergies-differences/art-20503981


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## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

old medic said:


> COVID.... is basically the common cold
> Covid 19 is the latest version of this common cold (humanly modified???)
> There is no doubt its a bad bug and devastating to folks that are already
> burdened with health issues.
> The end of this is im afraid is not done



Thank you for your thoughts.


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

I don’t understand the questions the OP is asking.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 10, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I'm really trying to understand your points of view and I am not trying to set you up for criticism or ridicule.  I'd just like to know what you would need to change your mind.
> 
> So, let's assume that most of what we've been told about Covid-19 is reasonably accurate.  (You can use your own definition of reasonably accurate.)  What sort of reporting or who would you need to hear from to trust that what has been widely reported is correct?


There is no one left now that I hold a stitch of trust, faith, or sense of comfort in their word.

It's like the boy who cried wolf. Screw around good old-fashioned folk long enough, and sooner or later your word will be dirt, and that's where I'm at with it.


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## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> There is no one left now that I hold a stitch of trust, faith, or sense of comfort in their word.
> 
> It's like the boy who cried wolf. Screw around good old-fashioned folk long enough, and sooner or later your word will be dirt, and that's where I'm at with it.



Thank you for your response.  I don't expect another response, but after reading what you wrote I'm wondering if there are any things you do trust.  My take on what you wrote is that you don't trust the word of any other people.  However I also think I might be wrong about that.


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## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I don’t understand the questions the OP is asking.



I'm sorry my words did not make sense and I didn't effectively communicate.  I'm trying to find out if there are any sources of information that people would believe regarding Covid-19.  There are several or many people on this forum who do not trust and/or do not believe what we've been told about Covid-19.  I'm wondering who could tell them things they currently don't believe or trust so that they would believe or trust the information.  Or if there aren't any people they would believe or trust are there are any sources of information they would trust or believe since they don't believe what most mainstream sources are telling us.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 10, 2021)

asp3 said:


> Thank you for your response.  I don't expect another response, but after reading what you wrote I'm wondering if there are any things you do trust.  My take on what you wrote is that you don't trust the word of any other people.  However I also think I might be wrong about that.


Sure, Asp, I trust the word of other people (selectively), but as far as the whole Covid fiasco goes, I'm all but done.

I didn't believe a word as to how Covid came about from the start, and I still don't believe information related to.

Allow me to layout a prime example for you. When the vaccination campaign started here in Canada, we were told that the second injection would, and should happen X-amount of days after the initial does was administered.

Shortly there are, when Pfizer went down due to production issues, suddenly it was okay to extend the time-frame between the first and second dose.

Then came information that vials with 5 doses in them were being stretched out to administer 6 doses, and that 6 doses was plenty, yet Pfizer was clear that each vile was only good for 5 doses.

And to date the conflicting, false, and even drummed-up information keeps flowing in, changing from day to day. What was new today, is old tomorrow.

Just how long can this keep going on where people aren't going to start questioning the integrity of those at the top?


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## Judycat (Apr 10, 2021)

While I don't believe everything I'm told, too many people are willing to believe a lie just because it sounds better than the truth. It's ok for little kids to do that, but by the time one is 50+, one should know the world  doesn't trouble itself with making sure everyone believes some BS about public health. If anything it will tone down the seriousness, so people don't become afraid.


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I'm sorry my words did not make sense and I didn't effectively communicate.  I'm trying to find out if there are any sources of information that people would believe regarding Covid-19.  There are several or many people on this forum who do not trust and/or do not believe what we've been told about Covid-19.  I'm wondering who could tell them things they currently don't believe or trust so that they would believe or trust the information.  Or if there aren't any people they would believe or trust are there are any sources of information they would trust or believe since they don't believe what most mainstream sources are telling us.


Thank you. That’s what I thought you meant but I wasn’t quite sure.

I’m skeptical about many things especially where big bucks are concerned. Follow the money trail and you usually find all the BS that goes along with all the changes that need doing, the extra taxes that need charging or the next reason why our rights are being taken away.

At first I believed everything I heard about this virus and was completely spooked. Then once I heard that patients that die from Covid get larger insurance claims which means that hospitals, nursing homes etc., profit from declaring a death as a result from Covid, my blinders started coming off.

I don’t doubt that there’s a virus. I don’t doubt that it can kill people and has been. What I doubt are all the people who jumped on the Covid band wagon so they could make a larger profit.

Having said all that, I personally know medical nurses and support workers who have to work with Covid patients who claim it’s hell.

So honestly I feel torn. On one side of the coin I do think certain professionals exaggerate the virus to profit from it and on the other hand I think there’s a lot of really kind hearted souls who have reached out and gone beyond the call of duty to help their fellow man/woman and I find it incredibly touching.

I’m confused more than anything. Today I hugged my sister in law and it’s the first person, besides my husband, that I’ve hugged in a long time and it felt so nice and I’m not really the huggy type.

What I find confusing is when government make strict mandatory rules for everyone but keep the schools open. The logic is that the parents can’t care for their children at home because they have to work and the government is desperately trying to stop an economy collapse.

Then I think about Texas and how their government handled it. They decided to not wear masks and their cases went down significantly.

Also logically if this virus is airborne  then I’d think any virus particle getting caught in your mask would incubate far faster. Plus people need fresh air to keep their immune systems peeking at their best. Viruses mutate to their surroundings. Maybe sterilizing everything and wearing masks all day long can lead to deadlier more potent viruses.

Some things make logical sense but other things seem right whacked out.


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## MarciKS (Apr 10, 2021)

Frankly right now I no longer trust any of the information being fed to us. If it didn't change from day to day and person to person it would be different but everything is conflicting. I'm starting to feel like something has been done on purpose to harm us to what end I don't know. But someone is lying and covering up a large dirty secret and we're sitting ducks. JMO. 

It's been 13 months of this wishy washy BS information coming at us from everywhere. It's been 13 months of people bickering online and offline about it. I'm frickin done with all of this COVID crap. I don't wanna talk about it anymore or hear about it anymore. I will wear my masks and stay in isolation if that's what it takes to stay alive. And I no longer give a rats ass what anyone elses opinion is. No offense to you Asp.

Peace out.


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## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Thank you. That’s what I thought you meant but I wasn’t quite sure.
> 
> I’m skeptical about many things especially where big bucks are concerned. Follow the money trail and you usually find all the BS that goes along with all the changes that need doing, the extra taxes that need charging or the next reason why our rights are being taken away.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your detailed response.  I'm happy to hear that you were able to hug your sister in law.  I hope that eventually you're able to feel as if you have a good handle on what's happened and it makes sense to you.


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

asp3 said:


> Thank you for your detailed response.  I'm happy to hear that you were able to hug your sister in law.  I hope that eventually you're able to feel as if you have a good handle on what's happened and it makes sense to you.


Thank you.


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## asp3 (Apr 10, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> Frankly right now I no longer trust any of the information being fed to us. If it didn't change from day to day and person to person it would be different but everything is conflicting. I'm starting to feel like something has been done on purpose to harm us to what end I don't know. But someone is lying and covering up a large dirty secret and we're sitting ducks. JMO.
> 
> It's been 13 months of this wishy washy BS information coming at us from everywhere. It's been 13 months of people bickering online and offline about it. I'm frickin done with all of this COVID crap. I don't wanna talk about it anymore or hear about it anymore. I will wear my masks and stay in isolation if that's what it takes to stay alive. And I no longer give a rats ass what anyone elses opinion is. No offense to you Asp.
> 
> Peace out.



No offense taken.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings about all that you're hearing and what it's lead you to believe or suspect.


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## win231 (Apr 10, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Sure, Asp, I trust the word of other people (selectively), but as far as the whole Covid fiasco goes, I'm all but done.
> 
> I didn't believe a word as to how Covid came about from the start, and I still don't believe information related to.
> 
> ...


Many people are desperate for hero worship & to them, anyone with capital letters after their name (like Fauci or Ferer) is automatically believed without question.   The _"All doctors & cops are heroes"_ complex.


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## chic (Apr 11, 2021)

Why I don't believe this #1

Because they lied from the start about what their agenda was and what is really going on here. How can "Stay at home for four weeks" turns into 13 months and nobody questions this because it's hard to admit you may have misplaced your trust.

Why I don't believe this #2

Last April during what we were told was the "Peak", and were under stay at hope orders because covid cases were skyrocketing, I went to a local hospital and saw NOTHING. I drive by this hospital all the time and noticed absolutely NO activity - during what is supposed to be the peak of a pandemic. The front parking lot was completely empty. The rear parking lot was hidden from view up a long driveway so I drove up there. About 3/4 of the way up I was halted by a guy in a booth and made a U turn back out but not before seeing there were only two cars in the rear parking lot. So how are all the doctors and nurses you see constantly on the news treating covid patients getting to work? Helicopter? This hospital is not on a public transportation route.

Since then I've heard others, not too many. say similar things about empty hospitals. They are treated as crackpots but after my experience, I'm listening more to them than I am to the news, Not everyone goes and investigates for themselves. I did and that is what I discovered.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 11, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I'm sorry my words did not make sense and I didn't effectively communicate.  I'm trying to find out if there are any sources of information that people would believe regarding Covid-19.  There are several or many people on this forum who do not trust and/or do not believe what we've been told about Covid-19.  I'm wondering who could tell them things they currently don't believe or trust so that they would believe or trust the information.  Or if there aren't any people they would believe or trust are there are any sources of information they would trust or believe since they don't believe what most mainstream sources are telling us.


I think the problem is that those in authority simply don't know themselves the full facts of this virus. Therefore the information they give the public is confusing and we keep getting mixed messages.


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## Furryanimal (Apr 11, 2021)

I have consistently sought out the real figures published deep on government websites rather than just believe what is reported.
And a nurse who lives next door to a friend has consistently insisted that reports of overwhelmed hospitals are inaccurate.
He insists this past Winter was less busy than normal.
And I believe him.
Nothing will change the way I have thought since day one.


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## win231 (Apr 11, 2021)

chic said:


> Why I don't believe this #1
> 
> Because they lied from the start about what their agenda was and what is really going on here. How can "Stay at home for four weeks" turns into 13 months and nobody questions this because it's hard to admit you may have misplaced your trust.
> 
> ...


I took  2 elderly friends to the ER several months ago while we were being told ER's are crowded, the hallways are lined with patients on gurneys because there are no beds, hospitals are filled to capacity, and there were so many deaths, bodies were stacked in meat trucks in the parking lot.
There were TWO people in the ER waiting room, my friends were seen right away, several doctors were standing around with nothing to do, there were no patients in the hallways & there wasn't a single meat truck in the parking lot.
Three months ago, my sister went to the ER with a UTI.  Same situation - she was seen immediately, no one in the waiting room.


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## Keesha (Apr 11, 2021)

About 4 months ago, I went into the hospital due to a sprained/torn rotator cuff and there was nobody in the emergency waiting room. The hospital was spookily empty. In fact, the parking lot was practically empty.


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## asp3 (Apr 11, 2021)

chic said:


> Why I don't believe this #1
> 
> Because they lied from the start about what their agenda was and what is really going on here. How can "Stay at home for four weeks" turns into 13 months and nobody questions this because it's hard to admit you may have misplaced your trust.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing your experience.  I can see why that would make you doubt what's being reported.


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## Packerjohn (Apr 11, 2021)

Ok, I have changed my view a little bit.  I read an article this morning from CDC (Centre for Disease Control); an organization that we should believe.  They said that this constant wiping everything is a complete waste of time and effort.  You chance of getting Covid-19 from a dirty object is about 1 in10,000.  This virus is air born so we should concentrate on filters or masks.  So, the wiping of your shopping cart is just a waste of time.  Don't believe me.  Blame this information on the CDC unless, of course, you are smarter than they are!

By the way, the promotion of Covid-19 will continue for some time until more people get the jab or until people are just sick of it.  There are still a lot of people making money out of this pandemic without realizing what it's going to cost the country.  Of course, with free government money for some people, why go to work when you can sit home, enjoy free money and watch Netflix all day long?  Is this what used to be called, "The Life of Raleigh?"


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## asp3 (Apr 11, 2021)

Furryanimal said:


> I have consistently sought out the real figures published deep on government websites rather than just believe what is reported.
> And a nurse who lives next door to a friend has consistently insisted that reports of overwhelmed hospitals are inaccurate.
> He insists this past Winter was less busy than normal.
> And I believe him.
> Nothing will change the way I have thought since day one?



Thank you for telling me what you are doing to get information you feel is more trustworthy than what is being reported.


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## asp3 (Apr 11, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> Ok, I have changed my view a little bit.  I read an article this morning from CDC (Centre for Disease Control); an organization that we should believe.  They said that this constant wiping everything is a complete waste of time and effort.  You chance of getting Covid-19 from a dirty object is about 1 in10,000.  This virus is air born so we should concentrate on filters or masks.  So, the wiping of your shopping cart is just a waste of time.  Don't believe me.  Blame this information on the CDC unless, of course, you are smarter than they are!
> 
> By the way, the promotion of Covid-19 will continue for some time until more people get the jab or until people are just sick of it.  There are still a lot of people making money out of this pandemic without realizing what it's going to cost the country.  Of course, with free government money for some people, why go to work when you can sit home, enjoy free money and watch Netflix all day long?  Is this what used to be called, "The Life of Raleigh?"



Thank you for expressing what you think is behind the Covid-19 information that's being shared.  I definitely agree that the information we've been given has changed over time.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 11, 2021)

win231 said:


> Many people are desperate for hero worship & to them, anyone with capital letters after their name (like Fauci or Ferer) is automatically believed without question.   The _"All doctors & cops are heroes"_ complex.


I agree.

Our authority on Covid (here in BC) is Dr. Bonnie Henry, and you would think (talking with others) that she is a god, and that her word is the last word, _gospel_.


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## SetWave (Apr 11, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Covid is the common cold?
> I don’t think it is and according to the mayo clinic, there are differences.


"Coronaviruses usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold. However, SARS-CoV-2 can cause serious illness and even death. Why people's COVID-19 symptoms vary so greatly isn't fully understood."


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## Irwin (Apr 11, 2021)

The CDC isn't my go-to source, since it had been politicized and a nut-job, conspiracy theorist was in charge for a while. I prefer Johns Hopkins University for my covid-19 info.


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## chic (Apr 11, 2021)

Keesha said:


> About 4 months ago, I went into the hospital due to a sprained/torn rotator cuff and there was nobody in the emergency waiting room. The hospital was spookily empty. In fact, the parking lot was practically empty.


I hope you're ok now Keesha. That's a painful injury. Hugs to you.


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## MarciKS (Apr 11, 2021)

Well if the hospitals are so empty then can someone explain to me why New York had freezer trucks full of dead bodies in their lots? You gonna tell me that crap was fake and on the tv news? I just don't buy it.

Why would places like New York need freezer trucks and other smaller places hardly see any cases? We had dead bodies rolling by us every day at work there for a while. It was hard to see.

But I doubt these drs and nurses would get on live television and lie about what's happening in their facilities. I find it hard to believe that any hospital would allow fake freezer trucks in their lots to be filmed for some nefarious purpose. And I *seriously doubt* that any hospital would only have 2 cars in the parking lot of a fully staffed hospital. Usually there's places for visitors to park and separate places for staff to park.

And let's not forget about the field hospitals. Some of the towns surrounding our county had them. We did not. So what does that tell anyone??

All of it is just too questionable. And @Packerjohn I just heard about that wiping things down on a news spot on the radio the other day so I totally understand. I just think it would be nice if we knew WTH was going on but I don't think we ever will. And I don't believe that this virus will magically go away and that we will ever return to *normal* again.


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## Knight (Apr 11, 2021)

A trusted source with factual accurate information.

Government = political motivation to twist any info for political gain

Big Pharma =  Profit driven so what ever might sound truthful is professionally written to CYA in case of horrendous side effects. 

3rd party sources = can't get factual accurate information.

My conclusion = each has to make their own choice about what they feel is right for them.


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## officerripley (Apr 11, 2021)

Knight said:


> A trusted source with factual accurate information.
> 
> Government = political motivation to twist any info for political gain
> 
> ...


I agree with all but your conclusion; there's no way in heck I'd just do what I "feel is right for" me when it comes to medical/health issues; I'd at least talk to my M.D. about it. I figure even if the guy were a jerk--I totally don't think he is--he knows more than I do about my health, because all those years of med. school up against my high school diploma? No brainer: I'm gonna check with him.


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## Keesha (Apr 11, 2021)

chic said:


> I hope you're ok now Keesha. That's a painful injury. Hugs to you.
> 
> View attachment 159265


Thanks city girl. It was painful but it’s getting better. The extra weight I put one from not being able to exercise is at times hard to accept but this summer I’ve got so much to do that I know I’ll lose it. 
I hope you are doing ok to. How have things been ? How is your mom doing? Did you find any government assistance to help with your mom?


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 11, 2021)

Here is what I hear now related to anything and everything tied to Covid.

Taken from Charlie Brown.


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## Gaer (Apr 11, 2021)

I would generally trust Hannity or the "America First" site.  CDC , not so much.  Their site really diminishes the adverse side effects expected, while"through the grapevine" I'm hearing of all kinds of deaths and severe diseases/ reactions from the vaccine.  This is odd because I hardly talk to anyone!  
Why are they hiding that three labs in Wuhan were working on this vaccine at the same time because the Chinese Communist Government ordered this to be made and distributed throughout the world?  And the techniction who told that it was purely political "Disappeared"?
It's so hard to trust these days.


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## AnnieA (Apr 11, 2021)

old medic said:


> COVID.... is basically the common cold
> Covid 19 is the latest version of this common cold (humanly modified???)
> There is no doubt its a bad bug and devastating to folks that are already
> burdened with health issues.
> The end of this is im afraid is not done



I understand why you say this but it's an oversimplification and a little too broad.  Covid-19 and several viruses that cause versions of the common cold are in the same viral taxinomic family--coronavirus--but are not the same organism.  Also, most cases of the common cold are caused by organisms in the rhinovirus taxinomic group.  "Common cold" is defined by a symptom set rather than a particular virus or virus family.   Know that's preachy but it's that pesky biology bachelor's degree rearing its head.


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## Keesha (Apr 11, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> I understand why you say this but it's an oversimplification and a little too broad.  Covid-19 and several viruses that cause versions of the common cold are in the same viral taxinomic family--coronavirus--but are not the same organism.  Also, most cases of the common cold are caused by organisms in the rhinovirus taxinomic group.  "Common cold" is defined by a symptom set rather than a particular virus or virus family.   Know that's preachy but it's that pesky biology bachelor's degree rearing its head.





Keesha said:


> Covid is the common cold?
> I don’t think it is and according to the mayo clinic, there are differences.
> 
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...ld-flu-and-allergies-differences/art-20503981


That’s what the above links states also. There’s a significant difference.


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## StarSong (Apr 11, 2021)

Keesha said:


> That’s what the above links states also. There’s a significant difference.





AnnieA said:


> I understand why you say this but it's an oversimplification and a little too broad.  Covid-19 and several viruses that cause versions of the common cold are in the same viral taxinomic family--coronavirus--but are not the same organism.  Also, most cases of the common cold are caused by organisms in the rhinovirus taxinomic group.  "Common cold" is defined by a symptom set rather than a particular virus or virus family.   Know that's preachy but it's that pesky biology bachelor's degree rearing its head.


Thanks to both of you for the clarifications.  Facts matter.


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## AnnieA (Apr 11, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I'm really trying to understand your points of view and I am not trying to set you up for criticism or ridicule.  I'd just like to know what you would need to change your mind.
> 
> So, let's assume that most of what we've been told about Covid-19 is reasonably accurate.  (You can use your own definition of reasonably accurate.)  What sort of reporting or who would you need to hear from to trust that what has been widely reported is correct?



We're not in the clear yet and it's still a brand new bug from a medical perspective, vaccines are still in an emergency, experimental stage. Advice and recommendations have naturally shifted over the past year or so because it is a 'novel' virus as its full name indicates.   Qualified scientists and medical professionals are still not in agreement over prevention and treatment measures.

More concerning than naming a current "who to trust" for accurate information is the silencing of qualified professionals (most recently Princeton educated Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford) that are not following the 'script of the moment' by media and social media. Science isn't easy or 'cookie cutter' ...and though we're in a pandemic situation, there's not just a medical component, there's also an economic impact that may in the end be more devastating; I hope not, but the potential is certainly there. Regardless of how all that shakes out, silencing debate is not in the best interest of science ...either medical or social.

So I really can't answer the question as you posed it while the pandemic is ongoing.  I hope there is enough freedom of information online in five to ten years to be able to retrospectively analyze who was most accurate.

Currently, we have to keep in mind that the disease is new.  As Keesha stated above, we also have to keep in mind as we read ever shifting edicts  who is profiting from the advice of the moment ...both from a monetary and a social engineering standpoint.


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## Sunny (Apr 11, 2021)

One reason for the constantly changing information is that this virus is still very new to humankind. That's why it's called the "novel" coronavirus. The findings of the medical community keep changing because all we have to go on it what's happened so far. So the way things "seemed to be" a year ago, when the virus was just a few months old, would of course have to be different after millions have died from the disease, and many more millions were sickened by it.  The medical and scientific researchers are learning all the time, and passing their findings along to us.

For instance, it was logical to think, at the beginning, that this disease was easily spread by touching surfaces (tables, countertops, doorknobs) that had the virus sitting on them. Recent research shows that that wasn't really true, it spreads almost entirely through the air, especially when propelled by sneezing, coughing, or yelling. So of course, masks are more effective than wearing gloves.  

There seems to be an air of suspicion in some members of this forum, against scientists and others who are educated in this subject. I think some people have been indoctrinated to mistrust the findings of science and think there is a conspiracy out there to fool the public into believing what is not true, for some reason.  But I think the answer is much simpler. We are all just learning, and our knowledge is incomplete. We do the best we can. Scientists are working very hard to seek answers, and I think the speed with which they came up with a vaccine is astonishing!

Interesting question, Asp, thanks for asking it.


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## officerripley (Apr 11, 2021)

Sunny said:


> One reason for the constantly changing information is that this virus is still very new to humankind. That's why it's called the "novel" coronavirus. The findings of the medical community keep changing because all we have to go on it what's happened so far. So the way things "seemed to be" a year ago, when the virus was just a few months old, would of course have to be different after millions have died from the disease, and many more millions were sickened by it.  The medical and scientific researchers are learning all the time, and passing their findings along to us.
> 
> For instance, it was logical to think, at the beginning, that this disease was easily spread by touching surfaces (tables, countertops, doorknobs) that had the virus sitting on them. Recent research shows that that wasn't really true, it spreads almost entirely through the air, especially when propelled by sneezing, coughing, or yelling. So of course, masks are more effective than wearing gloves.
> 
> ...


This! (Espec. what I bolded.)


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## Knight (Apr 11, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I agree with all but your conclusion; there's no way in heck I'd just do what I "feel is right for" me when it comes to medical/health issues; I'd at least talk to my M.D. about it. I figure even if the guy were a jerk--I totally don't think he is--he knows more than I do about my health, because all those years of med. school up against my high school diploma? No brainer: I'm gonna check with him.


This was about believing what is out there for info regarding covid-19. I think my conclusion still works, because  right for you is checking with your doctor .


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## officerripley (Apr 11, 2021)

Knight said:


> This was about believing what is out there for info regarding covid-19. I think my conclusion still works, because  right for you is checking with your doctor .


For what is out there for info regarding covid-19, I think it'd be right for _everyone _to check with their M.D. Or an epidemiologist, if you know one (and most people don't, so therefore it'd be your M.D.). Known fact: Covid is an epidemic. Known fact: people best trained in epidemics? Epidemiologists. People next-best trained? M.D.s.


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## Knight (Apr 11, 2021)

officerripley said:


> For what is out there for info regarding covid-19, I think it'd be right for _everyone _to check with their M.D. Or an epidemiologist, if you know one (and most people don't, so therefore it'd be your M.D.). Known fact: Covid is an epidemic. Known fact: people best trained in epidemics? Epidemiologists. People next-best trained? M.D.s.


Wouldn't it be great if several top of their field epidemiologists were to investigate all the factors  surrounding Covid & then put out their best thoughts on this epidemic?


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 11, 2021)

Knight said:


> Wouldn't it be great if several top of their field epidemiologists were to investigate all the factors  surrounding Covid & then put out their best thoughts on this epidemic?


That's best done retrospectively, unfortunately.  And there will still always be some dissent.  Like I said above, this sort of science isn't easy even without the complicating factors of financial gain and worldview bias.


----------



## chic (Apr 11, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Thanks city girl. It was painful but it’s getting better. The extra weight I put one from not being able to exercise is at times hard to accept but this summer I’ve got so much to do that I know I’ll lose it.
> I hope you are doing ok to. How have things been ? How is your mom doing? Did you find any government assistance to help with your mom?


I know you will. I don't need govt assistance to take care of mom which is a good thing cuz we don't get much of it here. I won't be able to work in this state cuz of covid restrictions so may have to move to a state that isn't so strict. We'll see. Say a prayer for us. Will do the same for you.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 11, 2021)

chic said:


> I know you will. I don't need govt assistance to take care of mom which is a good thing cuz we don't get much of it here. I won't be able to work in this state cuz of covid restrictions so may have to move to a state that isn't so strict. We'll see. Say a prayer for us. Will do the same for you.


Absolutely will send a few prayers your way. I think of you and your mom often. It’s not easy doing what you are doing. You’re a great woman to do that for your mom chic. She’s lucky to have you.

I wasn’t specifically referring to financial assistance but possibly some other help however so much has changed due to Covid. We are moving to a less expensive province with less Covid cases and much slower pace.
It was a lot of work but so work it.

Wishing you the best


----------



## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Covid is the common cold?
> I don’t think it is and according to the mayo clinic, there are differences.
> 
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...ld-flu-and-allergies-differences/art-20503981


Yes, like the way a tiger is different to a tabby cat, even though both are felines.


----------



## chic (Apr 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Absolutely will send a few prayers your way. I think of you and your mom often. It’s not easy doing what you are doing. You’re a great woman to do that for your mom chic. She’s lucky to have you.
> 
> I wasn’t specifically referring to financial assistance but possibly some other help however so much has changed due to Covid. We are moving to a less expensive province with less Covid cases and much slower pace.
> It was a lot of work but so work it.
> ...


Thanks and I hope your move works out well. I have heard the covid cases are high in some parts of Canada. Maybe this move will help you both. Hugs and have a good day - Chic.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

chic said:


> Thanks and I hope your move works out well. I have heard the covid cases are high in some parts of Canada. Maybe this move will help you both. Hugs and have a good day - Chic.
> 
> View attachment 159389


Thanks chic. We don’t live in a high Covid area but where my husband worked, was. Just south of us, closer to the city areas are some of the most infected areas in Canada. Ontario is getting around 4500 cases a day now. Where we are moving has almost none in comparison but that’s not the main reason for moving there. We want an area where we are near the ocean, lakes and rivers so we can swim, fish and canoe or kayak which we are. The scenery is gorgeous and apparently the lifestyle is slower paced, the people more friendly. I’ll take pictures once we get there and post them.
Have a great day also. It’s pouring down with rain here but I’ve got lots to get done inside anyway.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> I would generally trust Hannity or the "America First" site.  CDC , not so much.  Their site really diminishes the adverse side effects expected, while"through the grapevine" I'm hearing of all kinds of deaths and severe diseases/ reactions from the vaccine.  This is odd because I hardly talk to anyone!
> Why are they hiding that three labs in Wuhan were working on this vaccine at the same time because the Chinese Communist Government ordered this to be made and distributed throughout the world?  And the techniction who told that it was purely political "Disappeared"?
> It's so hard to trust these days.



Thank you for sharing which sources you would trust and the things that are bothering you about what's been and what is being reported (or not being reported) which are leading to your views.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> We're not in the clear yet and it's still a brand new bug from a medical perspective, vaccines are still in an emergency, experimental stage. Advice and recommendations have naturally shifted over the past year or so because it is a 'novel' virus as its full name indicates.   Qualified scientists and medical professionals are still not in agreement over prevention and treatment measures.
> 
> More concerning than naming a current "who to trust" for accurate information is the silencing of qualified professionals (most recently Princeton educated Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford) that are not following the 'script of the moment' by media and social media. Science isn't easy or 'cookie cutter' ...and though we're in a pandemic situation, there's not just a medical component, there's also an economic impact that may in the end be more devastating; I hope not, but the potential is certainly there. Regardless of how all that shakes out, silencing debate is not in the best interest of science ...either medical or social.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your thorough reply and thoughts.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

Sunny said:


> One reason for the constantly changing information is that this virus is still very new to humankind. That's why it's called the "novel" coronavirus. The findings of the medical community keep changing because all we have to go on it what's happened so far. So the way things "seemed to be" a year ago, when the virus was just a few months old, would of course have to be different after millions have died from the disease, and many more millions were sickened by it.  The medical and scientific researchers are learning all the time, and passing their findings along to us.
> 
> For instance, it was logical to think, at the beginning, that this disease was easily spread by touching surfaces (tables, countertops, doorknobs) that had the virus sitting on them. Recent research shows that that wasn't really true, it spreads almost entirely through the air, especially when propelled by sneezing, coughing, or yelling. So of course, masks are more effective than wearing gloves.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your thoughts on the topic.


----------



## Nathan (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I'm really trying to understand your points of view and I am not trying to set you up for criticism or ridicule.  I'd just like to know what you would need to change your mind.
> 
> So, let's assume that most of what we've been told about Covid-19 is reasonably accurate.  (You can use your own definition of reasonably accurate.)  What sort of reporting or who would you need to hear from to trust that what has been widely reported is correct?



I sense that you're attempting to raise doubt about the validity of reporting on the Covid 19 pandemic, and all I can say is for people to stay away from the media that promotes conspiracy tales for their political agendas.

I had Covid 19 back in December, it was *real*.  Part 1 of my Moderna vaccine was* real*, part two scheduled for tomorrow.
  The mainstream media is reporting what they hear from medical and scientific sources.  Does _some _media sometimes sensationalize some stories?  Sure, one of those pitfalls one needs to watch out for.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I sense that you're attempting to raise doubt about the validity of reporting on the Covid 19 pandemic, and all I can say is for people to stay away from the media that promotes conspiracy tales for their political agendas.
> 
> I had Covid 19 back in December, it was *real*.  Part 1 of my Moderna vaccine was* real*, part two scheduled for tomorrow.
> The mainstream media is reporting what they hear from medical and scientific sources.  Does _some _media sometimes sensationalize some stories?  Sure, one of those pitfalls one needs to watch out for.



I'm sorry my OP came across that way.  I left out my opinions in the OP because I wanted to get responses from people regarding what they would trust to confirm what has generally been reported and is generally accepted by most mainstream  media sources.

Overall I have a good deal of confidence in what has been reported and am comfortable with the changing information because as those working on Covid-19 prevention and treatment have changed some of what they thought about the virus and how it behaves in different environments and populations.

My own personal thought experiment has been to think of what it would take for me to believe some of the things that other people suspect are going on.  I completely believe things like what @chic wrote about going to her local hospital and seeing it practically empty or people who've shared information that people they know in the medical community have told them.

So what I would trust to counter what I generally believe about the pandemic would be investigative reporting which counters what we've been told from a publication with high marks for the accuracy of their investigative reporting.  If someone were to share something like that from a right leaning publication with a high accuracy rating I'd believe that.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

I think it was a perfectly fair experiment. You treated everyone fairly and thanked us all for our opinion. It’s a good thread and the OP just fine.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

SetWave said:


> I really feel ya, amigo but it just ain't gonna happen. Nobody's mind will change no matter what good evidence you present. If they wanna believe the earth is flat and the orange slime is their savior, qanonannoying fake news will win out every time. "Stupid is as stupid does."
> 
> Anyone open to a good debate might listen . . . but, that's not what we're dealin' with here.
> 
> So, I wish ya lots a luck. I really do.



Tried to resist replying to this but just can't due to how intellectually lazy it is coming from a smart person.   It's that you are otherwise intelligent that bothers me.  Can you not see that you're being played by polarizing herding just as neatly as those you compartmentalize, 'other' and disdain?  

I keep hoping intelligent people will wake up and push back against dichotomous thinking.


----------



## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

My personal opinion is that this is a multi-faceted situation.  On one hand, we are all learning about this virus together.  The medical community said it was a "novel" virus so they were completely unprepared for it.  The government relies on the advice and information from the medical community.  

Then, we have the news media whose true responsibility is to make money for their stock holders.  So, while they pass on information provided to them by the medical community and government officials, they also need to grab headlines and consumer attention.

Drawing a single conclusion about conspiracy, misleading the public  by design, or whatever theory one might draw, would at best, tend to ignore the other aspects of what is going on.  It simply isn't "black and white".

Tony


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> So what I would trust to counter what I generally believe about the pandemic would be investigative reporting which counters what we've been told from a publication with high marks for the accuracy of their investigative reporting.  If someone were to share something like that from a right leaning publication with a high accuracy rating I'd believe that.



There goes the dichotomous thinking.   Media is polarized no matter how much you'd like to think you've found publications that are accurate and trustworthy.  Same goes for people who read 'right leaning' publications and trust them.   Read from both sides (as well as international sources) with healthy skepticism and try to figure out the truth.

This is a particularly poor topic to try to set 'sides' due to the ever shifting nature of dealing with a novel virus.  Go back and read your 'trusted' sources since the start of the pandemic and see if the information has been consistent.

I think I misunderstood the OP  ...thought it was a great thread until this latest post. I thought you wanted an open-minded discussion that acknowledged members' distrust of the sometimes contradictory parade of latest and greatest recommendations to come along as well as the lack of consensus among experts.  I think you should have left out the word 'some' in your title; it would've made what now seems to be your intent based on the above quote much more clear.


----------



## StarSong (Apr 12, 2021)

This boils down to figuring out which sources people trust and why.  There's a lot of confirmation bias afoot here.  

People who tend to believe in conspiracy theories have found plenty of media offering supportive fodder over the past year. Same with people who've long been fearful that governments are attempting to control their lives and permanently limit their freedoms. They see the pandemic as a convenient excuse for governments to do exactly that. 

Folks who generally trust their government, science, scientists and modern medicine view the vaccines through those lenses.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> There goes the dichotomous thinking.   Media is polarized no matter how much you'd like to think you've found publications that are accurate and trustworthy.  Same goes for people who read 'right leaning' publications and trust them.   Read from both sides (as well as international sources) with healthy skepticism and try to figure out the truth.
> 
> This is a particularly poor topic to try to set 'sides' due to the ever shifting nature of dealing with a novel virus.  Go back and read your 'trusted' sources since the start of the pandemic and see if the information has been consistent.
> 
> I think I misunderstood the OP  ...thought it was a great thread until this latest post. I thought you wanted an open-minded discussion that acknowledged members' distrust of the sometimes contradictory parade of latest and greatest recommendations to come along as well as the lack of consensus among experts.  I think you should have left out the word 'some' in your title; it would've made what now seems to be your intent based on the above quote much more clear.



Once again I think I didn't do a good job of communication what I meant.  I should have left out the right leaning description.  I think most of the people who read my posts here know that I am more left leaning myself and prefer less biased to left leaning publications.  What I meant to say that if the investigative reporting from a given publication has been very accurate and is well regarded then I would trust it no matter what the perceived political slant of the publication.

I used the word some because there are people here who believe a lot of what is generally accepted from the standpoint of mainstream media but are bothered by a few things that are generally accepted.  I was wondering what they would trust to change their mind about one or more things that they suspect are not being reported accurately.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> .... I was wondering what they would trust to change their mind about one or more things that they suspect are not being reported accurately.



Many things aren't reported accurately from either side; no subject is exempt.

As far as what to believe is accurate information regarding Covid-19, that will take a retrospective analysis and there will still be gray areas and dissent years after the pandemic is over.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

StarSong said:


> This boils down to figuring out which sources people trust and why.  There's a lot of confirmation bias afoot here.
> 
> People who tend to believe in conspiracy theories have found plenty of media offering supportive fodder over the past year. Same with people who've long been fearful that governments are attempting to control their lives and permanently limit their freedoms. They see the pandemic as a convenient excuse for governments to do exactly that.
> 
> Folks who generally trust their government, science, scientists and modern medicine view the vaccines through those lenses.



Dismayed to say I realize now the two extremes are what the OP was all about and feel it oversimplifies an issue in which there is dissent among highly educated and experienced scientists as well as drastically different government edicts that haven't made that much difference in rates in numerous parts of the US.


----------



## SetWave (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Tried to resist replying to this but just can't due to how intellectually lazy it is coming from a smart person.   It's that you are otherwise intelligent that bothers me.  Can you not see that you're being played by polarizing herding just as neatly as those you compartmentalize, 'other' and disdain?
> 
> I keep hoping intelligent people will wake up and push back against dichotomous thinking.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

SetWave said:


>





> AnnieA said:
> 
> 
> > I keep hoping intelligent people will wake up and push back against dichotomous thinking.



Guess some won't...   I'll keep hoping...


----------



## SetWave (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Guess some won't...   I'll keep hoping...


----------



## StarSong (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Dismayed to say I realize now the two extremes are what the OP was all about and feel it oversimplifies an issue in which there is dissent among highly educated and experienced scientists as well as drastically different government edicts that haven't made that much difference in rates in numerous parts of the US.


I guess part of the bias is whether people believe that most scientists, doctors, and government agencies are doing the best they can under extraordinary circumstances.  

On another subject, if I recall correctly, you're a healthcare provider who calls on nursing homes or facilities that catered to the elderly and/or ill. 

There were plenty of people who objected to the restrictions, saying it was overstepping to disallow family members from having in-person visits with loved ones in those facilities. 

Do you think those places should have been (or should now be) fully opened up to family members, similar to 2019 levels?


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 12, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I guess part of the bias is whether people believe that most scientists, doctors, and government agencies are doing the best they can under extraordinary circumstances.
> 
> On another subject, if I recall correctly, you're a healthcare provider who calls on nursing homes or facilities that catered to the elderly and/or ill.
> 
> ...



I do agree with you that many are trying their best but I've questioned some things along the way. When Dr. Fauci early on advised against mask use for the general public, I thought that was dangerous information and wore one anyway ....n95s for work, homemade ones elsewhere.   Mississippi has lifted it's mask mandate but I still wear one indoors.   I also don't agree with the CDCs current recommendation not to disinfect surfaces ... and also thought they were incompetent in the way in which they mishandled early testing and by no means did the best they were capable of doing.  Think both presidential administrations have made foolish statements though I'm not going to go into those per rules of the board.

Yes, I do consulting for nursing homes and think the administration of the group I consult handled things well.   After a couple of months of complete isolation when so much was unknown, masked outside visits with a six foot distance were then allowed as well as phone visits through a glass door.   Currently, we are opening up gradually.  Residents of the skilled nursing facility and family members who have been vaccinated or have antibodies are now allowed in person visits away from other residents.

My point in all these examples and posts above is that we can't polarize this and have to weigh experts advice of the moment with common sense that includes disregarding a lot of media noise.

But I think @asp3 meant the thread for deniers to offer proof backing their position so I probably should've never joined in the discussion.  My apologies to @asp3


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> But I think @asp3 meant the thread for deniers to offer proof backing their position so I probably should've never joined in the discussion.  My apologies to @asp3



@AnnieA - I never meant the thread for people to offer up proof backing up their positions.  I'm sorry you took my post about my personal thought experiment that way.  I was trying to find out what, if anything, they would believe backed up some or all of the current mainstream ideas that they do not accept and believe are incorrect.

What I was doing with my post was turning the tables around on myself and trying to answer the question of what would make me believe some or all the things I believe about Covid and the pandemic are wrong.  For me the things I think I accept about Covid and the pandemic are pretty much what one hears from most mainstream media.

BTW I do pay attention to opinions that are not in line with what I believe none of them have enough evidence behind them for me to accept them.


----------



## Becky1951 (Apr 12, 2021)

"I never meant the thread for people to offer up proof backing up their positions"

 "I was trying to find out what, if anything, they would believe backed up some or all of the current mainstream ideas that they do not accept and believe are incorrect"

Providing the requested information is the same as seeking their proof.


----------



## twinkles (Apr 12, 2021)

i just read on the pc if your loved one dies from the shot they will give $9000 towards the funeral--that tells me they are experimenting


----------



## helenbacque (Apr 12, 2021)

There would be far less distrust if this had remained a medical issue without politics being involved.


----------



## Jules (Apr 12, 2021)

A friend who was equivocating made her decision when her adult grandson said he’d be able to visit her more.  He works with the public and it’ll be quite a while before he can get his shots.  Even with both shots, nothing is 100% so he doesn’t want to bring it home to her.


----------



## Irwin (Apr 12, 2021)

twinkles said:


> i just read on the pc if your loved one dies from the shot they will give $9000 towards the funeral--that tells me they are experimenting


I Googled that. It turns out that FEMA is providing $9,000 to pay for funerals of people who died from covid-19 itself—not from the vaccine.


----------



## JonDouglas (Apr 12, 2021)

There doesn't seem to be the structure or sufficient data in this thread to make this anything other than more conversation and certainly not a valid experiment.  It is opinion gathering at best.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> "I never meant the thread for people to offer up proof backing up their positions"
> 
> "I was trying to find out what, if anything, they would believe backed up some or all of the current mainstream ideas that they do not accept and believe are incorrect"
> 
> Providing the requested information is the same as seeking their proof.



Once again my communication skills have failed me.

I was not asking them for information that backs up their accepted positions.  I was asking what if anything would make them change one or more of their accepted positions.  For example if someone thinks that masks are useless I'm wondering if there is anything or anyone that would cause them to change their mind and agree with the generally accepted position that masks do reduce the chances of infecting someone else or being infected themselves.

Do you have a suggestion of how I could have written my post so that was clearer?  I'm wondering where my words are failing me so I can improve my communication.


----------



## hollydolly (Apr 12, 2021)

This is a Doctor whose views I respect... this is todays' video ouput from him..please watch to the end...







..and this a previous one where he asks the questions we're all asking...


----------



## digifoss (Apr 12, 2021)

Both videos are great hollydolly, thanks for sharing


----------



## hollydolly (Apr 12, 2021)

digifoss said:


> Both videos are great hollydolly, thanks for sharing


You're welcome, I hope it helps some of us...


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## asp3 (Apr 12, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> There doesn't seem to be the structure or sufficient data in this thread to make this anything other than more conversation and certainly not a valid experiment.  It is opinion gathering at best.



My suggestion was individual thought experiments for each person to see who or what would change their mind regarding Covid and pandemic beliefs which are counter to ones that are prevalent in mainstream media.  I see their replies as the results of their thought experiment.  I don't see the thread an experiment itself.

Maybe my definition of a thought experiment is different than yours.  I don't have any formal definition in mind and could very likely be wrong about what a thought experiment is.  However it is in line with what I have previously seen proposed as thought experiments, so in that case the crowd I run with would all be using the term incorrectly.  I realize that is completely possible as well.


----------



## JonDouglas (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> My suggestion was individual thought experiments for each person to see who or what would change their mind regarding Covid and pandemic beliefs which are counter to ones that are prevalent in mainstream media.  I see their replies as the results of their thought experiment.  I don't see the thread an experiment itself.
> 
> Maybe my definition of a thought experiment is different than yours.  I don't have any formal definition in mind and could very likely be wrong about what a thought experiment is.  However it is in line with what I have previously seen proposed as thought experiments, so in that case the crowd I run with would all be using the term incorrectly.  I realize that is completely possible as well.


I would have loved for you to structure it around a hypothesis and then test folks' views on and alternatives to that hypothesis.  Perhaps I am too much of a math/science nerd.  If so, I apologize.


----------



## officerripley (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> Once again my communication skills have failed me.
> 
> I was not asking them for information that backs up their accepted positions.  I was asking what if anything would make them change one or more of their accepted positions.  For example if someone thinks that masks are useless I'm wondering if there is anything or anyone that would cause them to change their mind and agree with the generally accepted position that masks do reduce the chances of infecting someone else or being infected themselves.
> 
> Do you have a suggestion of how I could have written my post so that was clearer?  I'm wondering where my words are failing me so I can improve my communication.


I, for one, think your communication skills are just fine and have thought about it and honestly don't know how you could be clearer.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

asp3 said:


> My suggestion was individual thought experiments for each person to see who or what would change their mind regarding Covid and pandemic beliefs which are counter to ones that are prevalent in mainstream media.  I see their replies as the results of their thought experiment.  I don't see the thread an experiment itself.
> 
> Maybe my definition of a thought experiment is different than yours.  I don't have any formal definition in mind and could very likely be wrong about what a thought experiment is.  However it is in line with what I have previously seen proposed as thought experiments, so in that case the crowd I run with would all be using the term incorrectly.  I realize that is completely possible as well.


If people weren’t sure what you meant , they could ask.


----------



## StarSong (Apr 13, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> I do agree with you that many are trying their best but I've questioned some things along the way. When Dr. Fauci early on advised against mask use for the general public, I thought that was dangerous information and wore one anyway ....n95s for work, homemade ones elsewhere.   Mississippi has lifted it's mask mandate but I still wear one indoors.   I also don't agree with the CDCs current recommendation not to disinfect surfaces ... and also thought they were incompetent in the way in which they mishandled early testing and by no means did the best they were capable of doing.  Think both presidential administrations have made foolish statements though I'm not going to go into those per rules of the board.
> 
> Yes, I do consulting for nursing homes and think the administration of the group I consult handled things well.   After a couple of months of complete isolation when so much was unknown, masked outside visits with a six foot distance were then allowed as well as phone visits through a glass door.   Currently, we are opening up gradually.  Residents of the skilled nursing facility and family members who have been vaccinated or have antibodies are now allowed in person visits away from other residents.
> 
> ...


@AnnieA, thank you for the update.  Since I no longer have loved ones in health or AL facilities, I've been out of touch on their evolving Covid strategies.  What a relief for the residents and family members to be able to have contact again.  When my mother and FIL were in AL frequent family visits were incredibly important to their - and our - mental health.

As you may remember, many of us have taken your advice to heart throughout the past year, including the purchase of oximeters (I bought them for my children, too), early mask wearing and increased hygiene recommendations.    

I agree that much of the US response has been sloppy and/or ill advised.


----------



## asp3 (Apr 13, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I would have loved for you to structure it around a hypothesis and then test folks' views on and alternatives to that hypothesis.  Perhaps I am too much of a math/science nerd.  If so, I apologize.



I'm afraid I don't have the skills or experience to set up such a grand experiment.  I took experimental psychology in college and we designed and ran a couple of studies, but that was decades ago.  Also it was on a much simpler topic.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 13, 2021)

StarSong said:


> @AnnieA, thank you for the update.  Since I no longer have loved ones in health or AL facilities, I've been out of touch on their evolving Covid strategies.  What a relief for the residents and family members to be able to have contact again.  When my mother and FIL were in AL frequent family visits were incredibly important to their - and our - mental health.
> 
> As you may remember, many of us have taken your advice to heart throughout the past year, including the purchase of oximeters (I bought them for my children, too), early mask wearing and increased hygiene recommendations.
> 
> I agree that much of the US response has been sloppy and/or ill advised.


It is so wonderful to see contact gradually restored!  We're just a few weeks out from all residents having their second vaccine dose so that'll really change things for the better.

And while I do appreciate your appreciation of some of my advice, that's not what is irritating me about this thread.

The major irritant is that it over simplifies a complex life sciences issue into polarizing camps.


----------



## officerripley (Apr 13, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> It is so wonderful to see contact gradually restored!  We're just a few weeks out from all residents having their second vaccine dose so that'll really change things for the better.
> 
> And while I do appreciate your appreciation of some of my advice, that's not what is irritating me about this thread.
> 
> The major irritant is that it over simplifies a complex life sciences issue into polarizing camps.


I really don't think that was the intention of this thread, could be wrong but maybe I'm not good at spotting oversimplification. And then again, maybe I am.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 13, 2021)

Here’s one thing I’ve noticed recently. With more and more people getting vaccinated, there have been more and more people infected with the virus in our area

Maybe those who get vaccinated get a false sense of protection and start mingling with others too soon. They can after all still get the virus and spread it to others.

I’m expecting news later to confirm that vaccine developers expected more from this vaccine than its actually doing. Perhaps I’m being a bit of a pessimist


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 13, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I really don't think that was the intention of this thread, could be wrong but maybe I'm not good at spotting oversimplification. And then again, maybe I am.



I just came back to clarify that.  @asp3, I like you!  ...May not make a hill of beans of a difference to you, but I do and generally enjoy threads in which we're both involved.   

My negative reaction wouldn't be as strong without @SetWave 's "orange slime, flat earth business.  It implies that those of us who are skeptical of the mainstream media are blind Trump supporters and I personally loath Trump ...but I'm not a fan of mainstream media on the whole.  Sometimes I find something great in the most liberal publications.   I also generally dislike Fox News for whatever that's worth.   In all that, I think I'm disappointed that @SetWave 's immature political post that hit me personally  went unchallenged.


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## Sunny (Apr 13, 2021)

From what I've observed, following the social distancing, mask wearing, etc., all the things they've been telling us to do for the last year, plus nearly everyone here having had both vaccine shots by now, has paid off. I don't know a single person who has gotten Covid. One lady I knew had multiple health issues, was very careful about not leaving her apartment, followed all the rules, and ironically never got Covid but she died a few days ago of cancer. Which proves nothing about Covid or its vaccine, of course. 

Keesha, your first sentence got cut off. Did you mean to say in your town, in your immediate neighborhood, in your country, or what?  And were the people who got it the same people who were vaccinated?

Asp, I can give you a theoretical answer. If I were holding off on getting the vaccine, and the death rate started rising alarmingly for everyone who got the virus, and no one who got the vaccine got the virus (or a very tiny number, 5% or less), that would change my mind! It would be suicidal to do otherwise.

Likewise, if I were planning to get the vaccine, but horrible side effects, including death, started turning up, that would probably change my mind.


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## Keesha (Apr 13, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Keesha, your first sentence got cut off. Did you mean to say in your town, in your immediate neighborhood, in your country, or what?  And were the people who got it the same people who were vaccinated?






I meant to say in our province however most of the areas most infected are the Greater Toronto Areas as well as Peel Region. Both of these areas are very populated and from following the news, were the first to get vaccinated. Our vaccinations aren’t ready in our area yet.

Anyway the areas that got the vaccinations first have gone up substantially which I find strange. 
It’s not very assuring. Ontario has about 4500 cases a day and most of them are just south of us


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## AnnieA (Apr 13, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Anyway the areas that got the vaccinations first have gone up substantially which I find strange.
> It’s not very assuring. Ontario has about 4500 cases a day and most of them are just south of us



That isn't good news.   Did cases start going up before people got the second dose or very shortly after the second and perhaps antibodies hadn't yet fully developed?


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## Keesha (Apr 13, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> That isn't good news.   Did cases start going up before people got the second dose or very shortly after the second and perhaps antibodies hadn't yet fully developed?


This part I couldn’t tell you as I have no idea.
Our area had what’s called a ‘lock down’ but directly after Christmas. In fact I think the order was to start December 26, 2020. Not long after Christmas there was a huge spike. Then we were levelling off at about 100 cases a day provincial.

The order was lifted and many gathered for Easter. After Easter we are now soon to reach the 5,000 infected a day within our province.
That’s serious!

This was one of my main reasons for wanting my husband to take early retirement. He worked in a high risk area. He has since retired and we are now moving to a new place within Canada with a bare minimum of cases. Hopefully I’ll be able to follow their protocol and understand more about it and how it works. I’m not completely opposed to getting vaccinated. I just want to make sure it works and that my system can handle it.

When I was younger there was an important vaccine that I couldn’t have due to what was in it but I don’t have a clue what it was. I do remember it being a big deal though since they were offering them at our school.


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## Pinky (Apr 13, 2021)

Being driven home by taxi this afternoon, I saw a number of pedestrians of varying ages, not wearing masks! Young, old, in groups and singly - no mask  

Perhaps some of the seniors had their vaccines and think it's okay to go without, but this isn't so! Now I know why the numbers aren't down as they should be.

apologies @asp3 .. kind of OT.


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## Keesha (Apr 13, 2021)

Pinky said:


> Being driven home by taxi this afternoon, I saw a number of pedestrians of varying ages, not wearing masks! Young, old, in groups and singly - no mask
> 
> Perhaps some of the seniors had their vaccines and think it's okay to go without, but this isn't so! Now I know why the numbers aren't down as they should be.
> 
> apologies @asp3 .. kind of OT.


You know Pinky, I’ve been thinking the exact same thing. Loads of people in Toronto and Peel Region got vaccinated and I think it gave them false confidence. Maybe they thought since they were vaccinated that they didn’t have to be as careful.

More families started getting together, more restaurants opened for closeness to happen and kids walk to school side by side.

It’s no wonder the cases are so high. Everyone’s let their guard down since the vaccines been introduced.

It might be doing  well elsewhere but in our province , we somehow screwed up big time.


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## Jules (Apr 13, 2021)

Since my family lives in Ontario, I thought I’d look up the numbers.  
Ontario has a population of ~*14million*.

Numbers vaccinated.
All data reflects totals from 8 p.m. the previous day. Last updated on April 13, 2021 at 10:30 a.m.


95,692
Daily doses
administered
3,310,157
Total doses
administered


*335,262*
People fully vaccinated

This is more shocking than I realized.  

My family live in cottage country and every weekend is busy, busy, busy even though people aren’t supposed to travel.


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## Leonie (Apr 13, 2021)

I decided to look at your question from the other side.  If I am reading it correctly you are asking people who don't believe what they are being told if there is anything (what or who) that might change their minds. 

I tried to think of what might change my mind.  I do believe most, if not all, of what I have been hearing from the beginning. The lockdowns and restrictions seem to have worked (so far) where I live so why wouldn't I believe?  I have the usual questions and uncertainties about the vaccines, but not enough to stop me from having them.  I take the advice of my doctor as I do on all health issues, and he recommends that I have the vaccine.

You have given me food for thought though.  I am trying to see it from the other side.  I am really only looking at it from my own experience and point of view.  I am old, with an underlying medical condition. That makes the virus a very real threat to me.  Financially though, it doesn't have much of an impact on my life, being retired.

If I was younger and still working, especially if I couldn't work from home, I might look at it very differently.  The economic side of it might be more important to me than the health side of it.   Children to support, mortgages to pay.  After all, it doesn't seem to have quite the same deadly impact on younger people for the most part. 

A large part of the division in society comes from that difference, an oversimplification of course, but still valid I think.   The difference in the way it is presented in the media is noticeably in that vein - economic versus health advice - depending on which way (and how far) the particular media outlook leans.  News broadcasts of both persuasions constantly give updates on the state of the economy one side maybe being a little more vocal than the other on that side of the 'debate' - for want of a better word.

That being the case I wonder if anything at all could really change my mind, given that these days I am so easily able to choose my preferred media provider - as are we all.


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## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

Jules said:


> Since my family lives in Ontario, I thought I’d look up the numbers.
> Ontario has a population of ~*14million*.
> 
> Numbers vaccinated.
> ...


Yes, it’s shocking. Out of 14 million people only 335,282 are fully vaccinated.

I think it’s from lack of vaccinations and lack of following rules.


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## Pinky (Apr 14, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Yes, it’s shocking. Out of 14 million people only 335,282 are fully vaccinated.
> 
> I think it’s from lack of vaccinations and lack of following rules.


It appears that many people think they don't need to wear a mask outdoors! This is so frustrating!


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## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

Pinky said:


> It appears that many people think they don't need to wear a mask outdoors! This is so frustrating!


We don’t generally wear a mask outdoors and neither does anyone else except for students walking together and that’s only a very few of them at best.

While out walking nobody wears a mask on the paths we walk on so we step off the path to let others through.

If I lived in the city though, I would wear a mask everywhere since there are so many people.

I’ve been out shopping with people wearing masks only over their mouths or hanging down around their chin. They wear one to the store only since it’s mandatory , then once in, take it off.
I never say a word to them about it. I simply avoid them.

Whenever someone comes to our house, either indoors or out, we wear a mask. Well at least I do. Professionals coming to the house do. Others, not so much. I’m so glad we are moving. It’s a crazy time to move but we’re ok with all the rules and restrictions and will follow all of them to a T.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 14, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I Googled that. It turns out that FEMA is providing $9,000 to pay for funerals of people who died from covid-19 itself—not from the vaccine.


Was going to post the same.  And that's part of the problem. lots of disinformation out there.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 14, 2021)

Pinky said:


> It appears that many people think they don't need to wear a mask outdoors! This is so frustrating!


You don't need a mask outdoors unless you're in a crowd of people.  No need for a mask if you're just walking the dog and might pass someone along the way


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## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I Googled that. It turns out that FEMA is providing $9,000 to pay for funerals of people who died from covid-19 itself—not from the vaccine.


That’s very generous of them.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 14, 2021)

Keesha said:


> That’s very generous of them.


Actually, that's very generous of US, not them.  We're the ones paying this.


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## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Actually, that's very generous of US, not them.  We're the ones paying this.


Oh! Lol! My mistake. That’s very generous of you then.  Probably not too funny.


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## Sunny (Apr 14, 2021)

I see lots of people wearing masks outdoors. I have trouble breathing with the mask on, especially when walking uphill. So, if no one is in sight, I generally lower the mask so I can breathe, but leave it around my neck so I can easily lift it up if I see someone coming. Probably all this is unnecessary since I have received both vaccine shots, but it probably makes anyone coming within hollering distance more comfortable. Obviously, they don't know whether I've received the vaccine or not. (Though most people who live here have gotten both shots by now).

I don't think I am putting myself or anyone else at risk by lowering the mask when walking outdoors alone. When walking with a friend, we usually put the masks up, just to reassure other people.


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## asp3 (Apr 14, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> I just came back to clarify that.  @asp3, I like you!  ...May not make a hill of beans of a difference to you, but I do and generally enjoy threads in which we're both involved.
> 
> My negative reaction wouldn't be as strong without @SetWave 's "orange slime, flat earth business.  It implies that those of us who are skeptical of the mainstream media are blind Trump supporters and I personally loath Trump ...but I'm not a fan of mainstream media on the whole.  Sometimes I find something great in the most liberal publications.   I also generally dislike Fox News for whatever that's worth.   In all that, I think I'm disappointed that @SetWave 's immature political post that hit me personally  went unchallenged.



Thank you for framing your reactions.  I see them in a different light now.


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