# Should there be broad-based religious teachings?



## Mr. Ed (Apr 7, 2021)

It seems nowadays outside religious practices and teaching have already impacted much of the world population. The bible states to go out and teach the nations, I have trouble with spreading the good news to people who are completely content with life as they know it to be. Not for the sake of education but the notion of changing heritage and beliefs so they may be as I am. 

Are we so vain that we must transform well-adjusted native inhabitants to our likeness so they may be happy living as we live? The irony of it all though is we discriminate against foreigners in their own land, because they are not like us. Soon there is tension between the home team and the visiting team, we bring in sophisticated firepower and the uneven balance is restored to our liking.


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Are we so vain that we must transform well-adjusted native inhabitants to our likeness so they may be happy living as we live?


Yes. Vain , arrogant and power hungry.


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> The irony of it all though is we discriminate against foreigners in their own land, because they are not like us.


Sadly yes. Exactly right.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 7, 2021)

I find it ironic that religion, due to its discussion causing fights, is usually not supposed to be discussed in forums and in polite company.  That seems quite the opposite of the message taught by at least some of the religions involved.

Just my personal opinion...what, to me, seems to be at least a part of this friction is people confusing fact and faith.  One can argue facts by showing proof.  One cannot argue faith because it is belief in unseen things, and proof is not required nor offered.  There is nothing wrong with either facts or faith, but confusing the two does seem cause more than its share of problems.

I honestly don't understand human nature well enough to know why it seems so necessary to force others to conform to our belief system and ways of living.

Tony


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

I don’t personally think most of the friction is based on faith vs facts. In my perception it looks like even if people have faith, they don’t have faith from the correct resources. Faith is as personal as love. It’s not all the same nor should it be and if you have no faith whatsoever, that’s ok too. We are allowed to think & feel however we think & feel. It’s ALL ok.
That’s the beauty of being unique.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 7, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I don’t personally think *most of the friction is based on faith vs facts*. In my perception it looks like even if people have faith, they don’t have faith from the correct resources. Faith is as personal as love. It’s not all the same nor should it be and if you have no faith whatsoever, that’s ok too. We are allowed to think & feel however we think & feel. It’s ALL ok.
> That’s the beauty of being unique.


I agree with most of what you said.

Please note that I said in my post: *Just my personal opinion...what, to me, seems to be at least a part of this friction is people confusing fact and faith.*

I didn't say "*most of the friction is based on faith vs facts*", as you stated in your post, and here I am stating what I said again and this time expanding a bit on it.

The reason I see *at least a part (not all) of the friction* involving confusion of faith and facts is that, in talking to people of specific faiths in my personal experience, they will often state beliefs as facts.  Once that happens, things become "testy" because then there is often an angry, or at least strongly defensive, response if another person questions those stated "facts".

A person's beliefs ARE held "near and dear", and they often serve as a kind of anchor around which one's life can be built.  I have seen the positive effects of this as people with a very strong faith seem able to deal with some of life's more severe ups and downs sometimes better than one without any kind of faith such as myself.  This isn't always true, but I have seen it on a number of occasions.

To question what somebody holds near and dear is often asking for trouble, and that can be easily avoided by simply not getting involved in such discussion.  Personally, I believe that a strong faith is a positive thing in one's life.  For some reason, I just don't seem to be able to cultivate that in my own life though.

As for "shoulds", to me these things are much too personal for anyone to "should" on somebody else.

Tony


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## Ceege (Apr 7, 2021)

How the Bible has changed over the past 2,000 years 

https://www.businessinsider.com/bib...tent=referral&utmTerm=topbar&referrer=twitter via @businessinsider 

Along with freedom _of_ religion, there is freedom _from_ religion. 
Teach and practice religion in your homes and churches.  But, ethics should be in our government and taught in schools.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 7, 2021)

I think one's religious beliefs, not matter how  strongly heart felt, are one's opinions; and as such, are as valid as anyone else's.   It doesn't matter how intensely one believes, or has faith, that one can coerce that same belief in others. I also think that the religious seek to have their personal opinions/beliefs supersede others' beliefs, because other faiths pose threats to their validity. If I believe X and you believe Y, then you are challenging my belief in X. I am an atheist, and it is my wish that all beliefs are accepted as personal opinions, each no better than the other.


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## Skyking (Apr 7, 2021)

OP, IMO you are pushing your own brand of religion and stirring the pot with your statement. Let it be. Peace out!


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## officerripley (Apr 7, 2021)

Skyking said:


> OP, IMO you are pushing your own brand of religion and stirring the pot with your statement. Let it be. Peace out!


I'm really confused: I can't see how he's "pushing [his] own brand of religion" since he never mentions what his religion even is. Really not meaning to "stir the pot" here, honestly confused and wouldn't mind clarification if you'd be so kind; thanks.


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## horseless carriage (Apr 7, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Just my personal opinion...what, to me, seems to be at least a part of this friction is people confusing fact and faith.  One can argue facts by showing proof.  One cannot argue faith because it is belief in unseen things, and proof is not required nor offered.  There is nothing wrong with either facts or faith, but confusing the two does seem cause more than its share of problems.
> Tony


It might just be your personal opinion but you have hit the metaphoric nail on the head. The Catholic Church does have much to answer for, I was brought up in the Catholic faith, a doctrine that once denounced critics as heretics, but with dramatic falling numbers the Catholic attitudes have significantly softened. So much so, that Pope Francis actually said that Martin Luther was right. He was referring to Luther's comment that the Catholic church must change. If I had said that back in the 1950's, my Catholic school would have, undoubtedly, expelled me.


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## Pepper (Apr 7, 2021)

Skyking said:


> Let it be. Peace out!


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## SetWave (Apr 7, 2021)




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## Irwin (Apr 7, 2021)

Religion should absolutely be taught in schools. It's had an immense effect on society and the world, both positive–mostly in the realm of art and architecture–and negative when one considers all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion and all the suffering that has resulted from people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.


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## Irwin (Apr 7, 2021)

SetWave said:


> View attachment 158682


That's great!


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## tbeltrans (Apr 7, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> It might just be your personal opinion but you have hit the metaphoric nail on the head. The Catholic Church does have much to answer for, I was brought up in the Catholic faith, a doctrine that once denounced critics as heretics, but with dramatic falling numbers the Catholic attitudes have significantly softened. So much so, that Pope Francis actually said that Martin Luther was right. He was referring to Luther's comment that the Catholic church must change. If I had said that back in the 1950's, my Catholic school would have, undoubtedly, expelled me.


I was also brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school for all but one year of 1st through the 8th grade.  Only several years ago, one of my brothers looked into DNA and our family tree, and found out that we are really Jewish by birth, back at least 5 generations.  It was apparently typical for Jewish people running from Hitler, to come here to New York and marry Catholics to hide.  There are apparently millions of us across the country and many don't yet know of their heritage.

My brother is quite actively practicing as a Jew, while I don't practice any particular faith.  He married a Jewish woman and was able to provide enough proof that their marriage was recognized in Israel by whatever group of people there does that kind of thing.  So I guess that means we really ARE Jewish. Imagine that, not knowing your true heritage until much, much later in life and that much of what we were told about family was little more than "spin".

Tony


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## Pepper (Apr 7, 2021)

@tbeltrans 
Welcome to the tribe


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## Irwin (Apr 7, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I was also brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school for all but one year of 1st through the 8th grade.  Only several years ago, one of my brothers looked into DNA and our family tree, and found out that we are really Jewish by birth, back at least 5 generations.  It was apparently typical for Jewish people running from Hitler, to come here to New York and marry Catholics to hide.  There are apparently millions of us across the country and many don't yet know of their heritage.
> 
> My brother is quite actively practicing as a Jew, while I don't practice any particular faith.  He married a Jewish woman and was able to provide enough proof that their marriage was recognized in Israel by whatever group of people there does that kind of thing.  So I guess that means we really ARE Jewish. Imagine that, not knowing your true heritage until much, much later in life and that much of what we were told about family was little more than "spin".
> 
> Tony


L'Chaim!  

My grandparents fled Lithuania in the '30s. Some of my relatives undoubtedly died in the Holocaust but I don't have any information on that. My grandfather on my mother's side died of alcoholism. I sometimes wonder if he couldn't handle the fact that some of the family couldn't get out while he did.


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## Pepper (Apr 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> L'Chaim!
> 
> My grandparents fled Lithuania in the '30s. Some of my relatives undoubtedly died in the Holocaust but I don't have any information on that. My grandfather on my mother's side died of alcoholism. *I sometimes wonder if he couldn't handle the fact that some of the family couldn't get out while he did.*


Survivor's Guilt.


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## horseless carriage (Apr 7, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I was also brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school for all but one year of 1st through the 8th grade.  Only several years ago, one of my brothers looked into DNA and our family tree, and found out that we are really Jewish by birth, back at least 5 generations.  It was apparently typical for Jewish people running from Hitler, to come here to New York and marry Catholics to hide.  There are apparently millions of us across the country and many don't yet know of their heritage.
> 
> My brother is quite actively practicing as a Jew, while I don't practice any particular faith.  He married a Jewish woman and was able to provide enough proof that their marriage was recognized in Israel by whatever group of people there does that kind of thing.  So I guess that means we really ARE Jewish. Imagine that, not knowing your true heritage until much, much later in life and that much of what we were told about family was little more than "spin".
> 
> Tony


Schneider is a German word for tailor, but it's also an Eastern European name, which leads me to understand that the name: Taylor, derives from the artisan who makes clothes, called a tailor, is most probably both Jewish and eastern European. Taylor is my surname, how often I have wondered if there's a Jewish connection.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> L'Chaim!
> 
> My grandparents fled Lithuania in the '30s. Some of my relatives undoubtedly died in the Holocaust but I don't have any information on that. My grandfather on my mother's side died of alcoholism. I sometimes wonder if he couldn't handle the fact that some of the family couldn't get out while he did.


When I found out the truth, I finally understood why we didn't have any of the relatives/extended family that everybody else seemed to have when growing up.  I also understand why, to this day, my mother denies that we are Jewish.

Tony


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I was also brought up a Catholic and went to Catholic school for all but one year of 1st through the 8th grade.  Only several years ago, one of my brothers looked into DNA and our family tree, and found out that we are really Jewish by birth, back at least 5 generations.  It was apparently typical for Jewish people running from Hitler, to come here to New York and marry Catholics to hide.  There are apparently millions of us across the country and many don't yet know of their heritage.
> 
> My brother is quite actively practicing as a Jew, while I don't practice any particular faith.  He married a Jewish woman and was able to provide enough proof that their marriage was recognized in Israel by whatever group of people there does that kind of thing.  So I guess that means we really ARE Jewish. Imagine that, not knowing your true heritage until much, much later in life and that much of what we were told about family was little more than "spin".
> 
> Tony


We have a similar story, except only my brother’s son became Jewish again.


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## Nathan (Apr 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion should absolutely be taught in schools.


...but NOT in public schools.   Separation of church and state is specified in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.  

But yea, by all means, teach religion in *private *schools.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 7, 2021)

Skyking said:


> OP, IMO you are pushing your own brand of religion and stirring the pot with your statement. Let it be. Peace out!


Uh oh...there is a song in this somewhere...

...yup! Here it is...






Tony


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion should absolutely be taught in schools. It's had an immense effect on society and the world, both positive–mostly in the realm of art and architecture–and negative when one considers all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion and all the suffering that has resulted from people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.


I feel exactly the opposite and don’t think religion should be taught in school. Which religion? With today’s mixed culture, I think it would cause more problems than solutions.


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## Gaer (Apr 7, 2021)

Even though the people carry around a name of a religion, they fail to live the values of an religious life.  
All religions today exist in the body  (the rituals and dogma) but are devoid of spirit.
The word religion means to "bind back"  meaning to bring back to the origin, the source.  
It should raise the mind to God consciousness, divine intelligence but it fails in this endeavor.
It still does have value in that it keeps the word God in the minds, and singing to God is a great homage.
Prayer to God, individually or collectively, is a wonderful action. IMO

One of my books, "Angels explain God and the New Spirituality"  explains this further


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

_My opinion: Religion should definitely *not *be taught in schools. I would like to see schools have classes on how children should treat other children of different beliefs regardless of where they are from. Children should be taught how to live in today's world. How to cope with the stresses of today and also classes in meditation should be a part of the curriculum._


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## Murrmurr (Apr 7, 2021)

Should there be broad-based religious teachings?​Not certain what you mean or how that would look, but if you mean an overview of all religions taught in, say, state schools, then no. And in any case, broad-based religious teachings = broad-based religious arguments.


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## Irwin (Apr 8, 2021)

Nathan said:


> ...but NOT in public schools.   Separation of church and state is specified in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> 
> But yea, by all means, teach religion in *private *schools.


Religion is an integral part of history and should be taught as such. We would never have had the 9/11 attack if not for religion. The ongoing situation in the Middle East is due to religion. Hitler used religion to gain a massive following. Then there's the Inquisition and all sorts of religious massacres throughout history.


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## timoc (Apr 8, 2021)

I do not follow any religion, that doesn't make me a bad person, though I have respect for people who have a religious belief, but that belief should be taught in their Churches, Synagogues, Mosques etc, not in schools. Those young minds should be kept free of religious doctrine to concentrate on the things they will need for their future careers.


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## Butterfly (Apr 8, 2021)

Nathan said:


> ...but NOT in public schools.   Separation of church and state is specified in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
> 
> But yea, by all means, teach religion in *private *schools.


I strongly agree.  Religious instruction -- and by that I mean the proselytizing type of instruction -- no matter what variety, has no place in public schools.


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## Butterfly (Apr 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion is an integral part of history and should be taught as such. We would never have had the 9/11 attack if not for religion. The ongoing situation in the Middle East is due to religion. Hitler used religion to gain a massive following. Then there's the Inquisition and all sorts of religious massacres throughout history.



Yes, but teaching that religion has had an impact on history is vastly different than "teaching" a particular religion.  For instance, when I was in school, we were of course taught about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, the fleeing of the pilgrims to America to avoid religious persecution, etc., as  historical fact without the instructor taking any position on whether said religion(s) were/are right or wrong in their basic beliefs.

I was particularly fascinated by a class I took in the ancient Egyptian religion, but I certainly had no thoughts of practicing it.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 8, 2021)

Should there be broad-based religious teachings?​This concerns missionaries, religious intimidation, forced worship, religious cohesion, religious persecution for nonconformity to religious laws and doctrine, missionaries who accordingly are sent to the four corners of the world for massive conversion. Doesn't it seem odd that mass conversion into one religion (world religion) is noted in the Bible signifying the apocalypse. History shows Christian missionaries served worldwide as a means to introduce and convert people into the Christian faith. 

The same is true with the Mormon and JW missionaries inducting new members to pay the cost of religion.


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## Sunny (Apr 8, 2021)

From Wikipedia:

*18% of respondents surveyed consider themselves "neither religious nor spiritual",[4] and another 16-27% as "spiritual but not religious".[5][4] The percentage of Americans without religious affiliation, who mostly identify as "nothing in particular" and are therefore known as "Nones", is around 21%.[6] Most of the "None"s have some and often strong religious beliefs, and 10% of all Americans are nonaffiliates who attend church six times a year and more. Social scientists argued that many "Nones" should be considered "unchurched", not being members of an organized faith at the time of being questioned, rather than objectively nonreligious.[1]**[7]*

So, considering the enormous variation in religious belief in this country, plus all those who checked the "None" box, what religious teachings would be appropriate?  Wow, talk about opening a can of worms!

Of course, the history of what has happened in the name of religion should be taught as a part of history, but without any dogma or religious indoctrination of any kind. (I'm talking about public school, of course.)  If parents want their children exposed at an early age to the teachings of a particular religion, it should be up to them to provide it. They should send their children to private religious schools, or provide instruction after school hours. Example: the Jewish kids preparing for their bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah go to Hebrew school after school hours; they do not expect the public school system to prepare everybody for a bar mitzvah.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 8, 2021)

So who's religion are we going to teach? Have fun with that one.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 8, 2021)

I wish there was a way people could communicate their beliefs and practices in an open non-controversial manner that those who hear may choose to adopt as their own. 

Unfortunately, seldom do people hear what is said without judgment or fear. Example, somehow my wife has it in her head that Yoga is a religion and therefore since Yoga is not Biblical or according to Scripture the practice of Yoga is unacceptable to her way of thinking. 

How many preconceived ideas do we carry with us wherever we go? Quick to judge or dismiss anything that doesn't fit within our tiny scope of the world we make for ourselves. 

I regret my time for living is much shorter than before. However, I am happy for what is to come because I choose to be.


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## Nathan (Apr 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion is an integral part of history and should be taught as such.
> 
> 
> > In the historical context- absolutely.


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## Pappy (Apr 8, 2021)

When I was in elementary school, we had religious instruction every Wednesday afternoon. I don’t know why they have stopped it because it was a good start to understanding the Lords way. In what I’m seeing in today’s schools, there’s a lot of kids that need this in their life.


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## Pepper (Apr 8, 2021)

When I was in elementary school, we had religious instruction every Wednesday afternoon, also, but only if we had parental permission to leave the school premises with the instructor, in my case a rabbi.

After awhile my best friend & I stayed at the back of the line walking to the synagogue, and we ducked over to her house.


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## OneEyedDiva (Apr 8, 2021)

That's exactly what Christians did. About 70% of Africans who were brought here as slaves were Muslims. Christians indoctrinated us with a White Jesus (which he wasn't) and their ways. Although Muslims are told to teach, we are not supposed to try to convince others they should be Muslim. That choice should come from the heart after (if one chooses) studying the religion and it's practices. We will never have one universal religion for all. 

@Keesha _"I feel exactly the opposite and don’t think religion should be taught in school. Which religion? With today’s mixed culture, I think it would cause more problems than solutions."_ I agree.


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## ohioboy (Apr 8, 2021)

There is really no such thing as total seperation of church and state, however, teaching religion in public schools is too fraught with litigation. The mere hanging of a picture of Jesus in the school hall is forbidden. 

The Senate Chaplain can open a session with a prayer, secular in nature. Christmas trees in public arenas/land, secular in nature. Still they have a religious overtone.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> That's exactly what Christians did. About 70% of Africans who were brought here as slaves were Muslims. Christians indoctrinated us with a White Jesus (which he wasn't) and their ways. Although Muslims are told to teach, we are not supposed to try to convince others they should be Muslim. That choice should come from the heart after (if one chooses) studying the religion and it's practices. We will never have one universal religion for all.
> 
> @Keesha _"I feel exactly the opposite and don’t think religion should be taught in school. Which religion? With today’s mixed culture, I think it would cause more problems than solutions."_ I agree.


It’s really a shame that so many others got a different religion shoved in their face like it was the ‘right’ way when they already had their own beliefs.  

We like the stories about Jesus but if he was just a bit whiter he’d be so much more appealing ? 

Christianity became more about power, money and politics than anything and somehow tried to erase anything that contradicted it like evolution. If our earth is 4.5 billion years old, then that’s a long time before humanity even entered into the equation. There were dinosaurs and all types of creatures large and small. They seemed to all survive without religion for more years than we can possibly imagine. There are far more things we don’t know about than we do. 

Humanity comes along and suddenly we understand how the heavens and earth were made, what God expects from us but in doing so we have to forfeit our logic and common sense as well as the entire history of the world. 

No Christianity wasn’t all rainbows and roses. 
It caused a lot of global issues and still does. 
Religion should always be a choice once we reach adulthood. ( in my opinion )


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## mellowyellow (Apr 8, 2021)

In Australian Primary schools, the parent has a choice of sending their child to a religious class run by volunteers from all faiths, or they can opt for what is called ‘Ethics Classes’.

Becoming a volunteer ethics teacher
https://videos.files.wordpress.com/SqoVTBpI/mike-ethics-teacher_dvd.mp4


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## Dana (Apr 8, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I wish there was a way people could communicate their beliefs and practices in an open non-controversial manner that those who hear may choose to adopt as their own.
> 
> Unfortunately, seldom do people hear what is said without judgment or fear. Example, somehow my wife has it in her head that Yoga is a religion and therefore since Yoga is not Biblical or according to Scripture the practice of Yoga is unacceptable to her way of thinking.
> 
> ...



_Yoga in itself is not a religion...however, it is part of a religion (Hindu)...so your wife is partially correct. Why must other religions be Biblical? _


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## Dana (Apr 8, 2021)

I went to a private Catholic school…my parents sent me there not because of the religious aspect but because I could pursue the activities I showed an interest in i.e. dancing, music, sports, swimming etc. Later on we sent our children to a Catholic school and were just as pleased with the result.

In spite of my Catholic school upbringing, I do not practise any particular religion. I am very interested in most of the main religions and feel comfortable going into any church or temple which gives me space to express gratitude and respite from the hustle and bustle of daily life.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> In Australian Primary schools, the parent has a choice of sending their child to a religious class run by volunteers from all faiths, or they can opt for what is called ‘Ethics Classes’.
> 
> Becoming a volunteer ethics teacher
> https://videos.files.wordpress.com/SqoVTBpI/mike-ethics-teacher_dvd.mp4


This seems more reasonable. Everyone should have a choice.


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## mellowyellow (Apr 8, 2021)

Keesha said:


> This seems more reasonable. Everyone should have a choice.


In the ethics class, they ask the children things like  'Is it okay to lie?' and interesting discussions would follow.  We all tell lies, but sometimes it's to spare giving an answer that would hurt a person's feelings.   Would an ethics class be more beneficial to the child than a religious class?  I have no idea because the ethics class didn't exist when my children went to primary school so they attended a religious class where nobody listened to a word from the poor Christian volunteer and it was a great class to get away with blue murder.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> In the ethics class, they ask the children things like  'Is it okay to lie?' and interesting discussions would follow.  We all tell lies, but sometimes it's to spare giving an answer that would hurt a person's feelings.   Would an ethics class be more beneficial to the child than a religious class?  I have no idea because the ethics class didn't exist when my children went to primary school so they attended a religious class where nobody listened to a word from the poor Christian volunteer and it was a great class to get away with blue murder.


An ethics class or classes to teach children about how to interact with others and about life in general would be a good course to offer.
Even courses offered on mental health and how to improve it would seem like useful courses to learn while growing up. There are many topics that could be taught and be significantly useful without the need for religion. With all the different types of religion, how would they please every family? They wouldnt and couldn’t.


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## mellowyellow (Apr 8, 2021)

Keesha said:


> An ethics class or classes to teach children about how to interact with others and about life in general would be a good course to offer.
> Even courses offered on mental health and how to improve it would seem like useful courses to learn while growing up. There are many topics that could be taught and be significantly useful without the need for religion. With all the different types of religion, how would they please every family? They wouldnt and couldn’t.


Great idea Keesha, there is so much they could learn, bullying and how it affects mental health would be a start.


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## old medic (Apr 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion should absolutely be taught in schools. It's had an immense effect on society and the world, both positive–mostly in the realm of art and architecture–and negative when one considers all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion and all the suffering that has resulted from people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.


I took a Religions class in high school... very very interesting,  covering all the major ideas and believes from around the world..
Including from none to astronomy to native spirits.... even devil worshiping...
The wildest part of the class was the teacher ..... and the HUGE OUTCRY from the community....
He was also the psychology teacher, a proclaimed  Atheist and most parents called for him to be fired...
Who better to pass along the fact than someone with no dog in the fight.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 9, 2021)

People fear what they don’t understand or told to fear from trusted sources. The problem is most people go by what they are told rather than experiencing life for themselves.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion should absolutely be taught in schools. It's had an immense effect on society and the world, both positive–mostly in the realm of art and architecture–and negative when one considers all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion and all the suffering that has resulted from people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.


I agree it would be a good idea to teach religion in school..BUT imo it needs to be taught by including promoting both tolerance and lack of judgement.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I feel exactly the opposite and don’t think religion should be taught in school. Which religion? With today’s mixed culture, I think it would cause more problems than solutions.


I agree it would be difficult but I also believe it would be an opportunity to teach tolerance and acceptance which is sorely lacking  in our society. Of course, teachers may not like this idea because it would add to their workload...so perhaps outside lecturers in assemblies could take on the task


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> L'Chaim!
> 
> My grandparents fled Lithuania in the '30s. Some of my relatives undoubtedly died in the Holocaust but I don't have any information on that. My grandfather on my mother's side died of alcoholism. I sometimes wonder if he couldn't handle the fact that some of the family couldn't get out while he did.


My parents fled Lithuania in the '40s


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## SetWave (Apr 9, 2021)

This might have already been mentioned and if so bears repeating.
I believe teaching the history of various religions and their affect over time should be part of world history for older students.
But, proselytizing? No way in hell.


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## Keesha (Apr 9, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I agree it would be difficult but I also believe it would be an opportunity to teach tolerance and acceptance which is sorely lacking  in our society. Of course, teachers may not like this idea because it would add to their workload...so perhaps outside lecturers in assemblies could take on the task


Tolerance and acceptance of others can be taught without religious overtones.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Tolerance and acceptance of others can be taught without religious overtones.


You are right but tolerance and acceptance specifically about other religions was where I was going...


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 9, 2021)

So, exactly what religion is all the nation kids supposed to be taught?
BTW, who do you think is the best teacher of morals and ethic- a government school, or just maybe, the parents of their own children?


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## Keesha (Apr 9, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> You are right but tolerance and acceptance specifically about other religions was where I was going...


Yes in world history, religions would of course be included. What the students choose to practice should be done at home or in their preferred church. Maybe this would start tolerance of other people’s choice in religion.


----------



## SetWave (Apr 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> What the students chose to practice should be done at home or in their preferred church.


Exactly.


----------



## Irwin (Apr 9, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I agree it would be a good idea to teach religion in school..BUT imo it needs to be taught by including promoting both tolerance and lack of judgement.


A total lack of judgement would be difficult if not impossible. The teaching of Catholicism, for instance, would have to include the widespread child abuse and pedophilia that has been prevalent in the church. How could you tolerate that and view it without judgement?

The teaching of Islam would have to include the suicide bombings and of course, the 9/11 attack.


----------



## Pepper (Apr 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> A total lack of judgement would be difficult if not impossible. The *teaching of Catholicism, for instance, would have to* *include the widespread child *abuse and pedophilia that has been prevalent in the church. How could you tolerate that and view it without judgement?


No it doesn't.


----------



## Irwin (Apr 9, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> My parents fled Lithuania in the '40s


Cheers, to another SF member with Lithuania roots!    

Have you ever been there? I don't really have any inclination to go there, although I might if I knew more about my lineage, i.e. where my grandparents lived.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Apr 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> A total lack of judgement would be difficult if not impossible. The teaching of Catholicism, for instance, would have to include the widespread child abuse and pedophilia that has been prevalent in the church. How could you tolerate that and view it without judgement?
> 
> The teaching of Islam would have to include the suicide bombings and of course, the 9/11 attack.


If Islam is being *taught correctly* in any institution, it would be noted that Islam *forbids the killing of innocents and suicide is considered one of the biggest sins! *The people who perpetrate these heinous actions are not true Muslims and we who are do not wish to be associated with them nor their actions. I once watched a special on how young men were being recruited to join these religious fanatical groups who do the suicide bombings and I was astonished, not only by their gullibility but by the parents who were proud their children were joining up! It was brainwashing to the umpth degree! A mother saying she'd be proud that her son would strap a bomb on and die for the cause....WTH!!  I sat there thinking, obviously they haven't read their Qurans.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) once taught: Harm no one so that no one will harm you. This refers to not bothering anyone who is not bothering you. If someone is threatening someone or his/her family, of course that does not apply. We saw a great example of the mindless who had been brainwashed to think they were doing the right thing during the insurrection.


----------



## Nathan (Apr 9, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> So, exactly what religion is all the nation kids supposed to be taught?
> BTW, who do you think is the best teacher of morals and ethic- a government school, or just maybe, the parents of their own children?


Teaching religion is the job of the children's family, and whatever clergy of the church/temple or synagogue the family attends.


----------



## Jules (Apr 9, 2021)

Some families don’t practise any religion.  Kids should have have an overview of all religions, no proselytizing.  It’s just part of their knowledge base.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 10, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> It seems nowadays outside religious practices and teaching have already impacted much of the world population. The bible states to go out and teach the nations, I have trouble with spreading the good news to people who are completely content with life as they know it to be. Not for the sake of education but the notion of changing heritage and beliefs so they may be as I am.
> 
> Are we so vain that we must transform well-adjusted native inhabitants to our likeness so they may be happy living as we live? The irony of it all though is we discriminate against foreigners in their own land, because they are not like us. Soon there is tension between the home team and the visiting team, we bring in sophisticated firepower and the uneven balance is restored to our liking.



Religion is fundamentally superstitious concoctions made up to pacify the question of life.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 10, 2021)

Jules said:


> Some families don’t practise any religion.  Kids should have have an overview of all religions, no proselytizing.  It’s just part of their knowledge base.


Agreed. We rely upon the school to offer that overview and we (as parents) fill in the gaps for our children if they are curious.


----------



## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> In the ethics class, they ask the children things like  'Is it okay to lie?' and interesting discussions would follow.  We all tell lies, but sometimes it's to spare giving an answer that would hurt a person's feelings.   Would an ethics class be more beneficial to the child than a religious class?  I have no idea because the ethics class didn't exist when my children went to primary school so they attended a religious class where nobody listened to a word from the poor Christian volunteer and it was a great class to get away with blue murder.


I very much like the idea of ethics classes.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 11, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Cheers, to another SF member with Lithuania roots!
> 
> Have you ever been there? I don't really have any inclination to go there, although I might if I knew more about my lineage, i.e. where my grandparents lived.


I have been there...my father was a prominent forester. My siblings and I  went to Lithuanian for what would have been my father's 100th birthday celebration.  I saw the graves of my grandparents for the first time and the house where my Dad grew up. 
I always find it pleasantly surprising where I 'run into' people with a Lithuanian heritage. Good to 'meet you'


----------



## Verisure (Apr 11, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I have been there...my father was a prominent forester. My siblings and I  went to Lithuanian for what would have been my father's 100th birthday celebration.  I saw the graves of my grandparents for the first time and the house where my Dad grew up.
> I always find it pleasantly surprising where I 'run into' people with a Lithuanian heritage. Good to 'meet you'


I've been there three times myself.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 11, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> So, exactly what religion is all the nation kids supposed to be taught?
> BTW, who do you think is the best teacher of morals and ethic- a government school, or just maybe, the parents of their own children?


I do not think any one particular religion should be 'taught' per se. I would like to see commonalities summarized and an emphasis on tolerance for all. And yes, of course, the 'best' teachers are the parents...even if in later years the children go out on their own...


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 11, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I've been there three times myself.



Very cool. are you Lithuanian??


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 11, 2021)

Jules said:


> Some families don’t practise any religion.  Kids should have have an overview of all religions, no proselytizing.  It’s just part of their knowledge base.


 Well put!! I totally agree...the teaching should be an overview for knowledge without any proselytizing!


----------



## Sunny (Apr 11, 2021)

Talk about opening a can of worms.  Some of the teachers would be proselytizing deliberately, some would be doing it without realizing that was what they were doing, some might be teaching objectively, but there would always be some parents objecting to something they said which they felt was prejudiced, etc.  Up to the age of college, religious teaching should be the domain of the parents.  In college, most people are exposed to all sorts of religious beliefs and history; I don't see why teaching those things is necessary before then.

This is much too hot a topic to be taught in public school.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 11, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Very cool. are you Lithuanian??


No, I'm not.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 11, 2021)

Verisure said:


> No, I'm not.


TY ..I do find Lithuanians in many places even though it is still a small country.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 11, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> TY ..I do find Lithuanians in many places even though it is still a small country.


The last time I was there I visited the Vytautas museum in Kaunas where the crashed plane of Darius and Girenas is displayed. It's a bit morbid.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 12, 2021)

Verisure said:


> The last time I was there I visited the Vytautas museum in Kaunas where the crashed plane of Darius and Girenas is displayed. It's a bit morbid.


 Still awesome to see that part of history..I have not been to the museum but know the story of Darius and Girenas.....my family lived in Kaunas for awhile..I was not born in Lithuania.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> It seems nowadays outside religious practices and teaching have already impacted much of the world population. The bible states to go out and teach the nations, I have trouble with spreading the good news to people who are completely content with life as they know it to be. Not for the sake of education but the notion of changing heritage and beliefs so they may be as I am.
> 
> Are we so vain that we must transform well-adjusted native inhabitants to our likeness so they may be happy living as we live? The irony of it all though is we discriminate against foreigners in their own land, because they are not like us. Soon there is tension between the home team and the visiting team, we bring in sophisticated firepower and the uneven balance is restored to our liking.


No.

My stance is, if I want religion in my life, there are a whole host of churches in our area and I know how to find them.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

old medic said:


> I took a Religions class in high school... very very interesting,  covering all the major ideas and believes from around the world..
> Including from none to astronomy to native spirits.... even devil worshiping...
> The wildest part of the class was the teacher ..... and the HUGE OUTCRY from the community....
> He was also the psychology teacher, a proclaimed  Atheist and most parents called for him to be fired...
> Who better to pass along the fact than someone with no dog in the fight.


I wished I had taken Religion in school. Learning about all of the worlds religious beliefs would have proved interesting.


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 14, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> *The bible states to go out and teach the nations*, I have trouble with spreading the good news to people who are completely content with life as they know it to be


Its done....maybe over done now


Aunt Marg said:


> My stance is, if I want religion in my life, there are a whole host of churches in our area and I know how to find them.


Yup


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Religion should absolutely be taught in schools. It's had an immense effect on society and the world, both positive–mostly in the realm of art and architecture–and negative when one considers all the wars that have been waged in the name of religion and all the suffering that has resulted from people trying to force their religious beliefs on others.


Religion is required in the schools in Sweden. Muslim migrants, however, tell their children to walk out of the class because (according to them) it is non-Muslim propaganda. I don't even know now if Moslems are exempt from the class. Maybe they are. I was once a Viking at a "living Viking" museum which is a replica Viking village. Part of the tour was Viking history.  School trips are common but  Moslem children leave the tour when we get to the part about when the Vikings became Christians because they think we were trying to convert them. They just walk out and wait in the school bus.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I wished I had taken Religion in school. Learning about all of the worlds religious beliefs would have proved interesting.


Not only interesting but important. My opinion is that if you want to believe in *"the meaning of life"* it's a good idea to know what choices there are and then decide for yourself.


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 14, 2021)

Irwin said:


> A total lack of judgement would be difficult if not impossible. The teaching of Catholicism, for instance, would have to include the widespread child abuse and pedophilia that has been prevalent in the church. How could you tolerate that and view it without judgement?
> 
> The teaching of Islam would have to include the suicide bombings and of course, the 9/11 attack.


  Are there going to be teachings of the child abuse horrors found in various Protestant churches? Or the  horrific emotional torture practiced on young queer people by various fundamentalist churches seeking to drive out anything

but their heterosexual version of “normal?” Let us not forget the ****** coercion found in the Buddhist Shambala not long ago. There are no perfect denominations.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Are there going to be teachings of the child abuse horrors found in various Protestant churches? Or the  horrific emotional torture practiced on young queer people by various fundamentalist churches seeking to drive out anything
> 
> but their heterosexual version of “normal?” Let us not forget the ****** coercion found in the Buddhist Shambala not long ago. There are no perfect denominations.


I think the idea is not to take up much of the interpretations of the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, etc. although that is increasingly difficult to ignore.


----------



## old medic (Apr 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> There are no perfect denominations.


Well some of the most trustful, helpful,  less judge full folks I know are Atheist....


----------



## SetWave (Apr 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Religion is required in the schools in Sweden. Muslim migrants, however, tell their children to walk out of the class because (according to them) it is non-Muslim propaganda. I don't even know now if Moslems are exempt from the class. Maybe they are. I was once a Viking at a "living Viking" museum which is a replica Viking village. Part of the tour was Viking history.  School trips are common but  Moslem children leave the tour when we get to the part about when the Vikings became Christians because they think we were trying to convert them. They just walk out and wait in the school bus.


My friend is a teacher in Sweden and she says dealing with the Muslim kids is a nightmare.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

SetWave said:


> My friend is a teacher in Sweden and she says dealing with the Muslim kids is a nightmare.


I have NO DOUBT about that. I was a teacher's assistant for one year. It was my intention to become a full-fledged teacher but after that one year with those Muslims ..... I gave it up and never looked back.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

old medic said:


> Well some of the most trustful, helpful,  less judge full folks I know are Atheist....


What do you have against us Agnostics?


----------



## SetWave (Apr 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I have NO DOUBT about that. I was a teacher's assistant for one year. It was my intention to become a full-fledged teacher but after that one year with those Muslims ..... I gave it up and never looked back.


From what she tells me I can completely understand your decision. She loves teaching but with the parents encouragement she is treated with total disrespect because she's a woman.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Not only interesting but important. My opinion is that if you want to believe in *"the meaning of life"* it's a good idea to know what choices there are and then decide for yourself.


I agree. I think it would educate a person enough to make wiser choices and help them have a more balanced perspective on their core belief system. 


Verisure said:


> I think the idea is not to take up much of the interpretations of the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, etc. although that is increasingly difficult to ignore.


I wholeheartedly agree. It’s the extremists who take their chosen religion too far that ‘seem’ to be the most whacked out and no religion appears to be without them.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

SetWave said:


> From what she tells me I can completely understand your decision. She loves teaching but with the parents encouragement she is treated with total disrespect because she's a woman.


There is nothing positive about that situation and it only takes 2 of them in any class to make teaching impossible. What really made my decision easy to make was that the good kids in that class couldn't learn anything because of all the noise and disturbances.  The Muslims have no respect for Europe or our kindness. The only thing they know is to destroy ... and that's what they do. And you're right. I'm a man and it's difficult enough, but for a woman, it's much, much worse. I have a son who's in school and I moved twice just to keep as far away as possible from you-know-who so my boy can get an education.


----------



## SetWave (Apr 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> There is nothing positive about that situation and it only takes 2 of them in any class to make teaching impossible. What really made my decision easy to make was that the good kids in that class couldn't learn anything because of all the noise and disturbances.  The Muslims have no respect for Europe or our kindness. The only thing they know is to destroy ... and that's what they do. And you're right. I'm a man and it's difficult enough, but for a woman, it's much, much worse.


It's as if you are quoting her word for word.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I agree. I think it would educate a person enough to make wiser choices and help them have a more balanced perspective on their core belief system.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree. It’s the extremists who take their chosen religion too far that ‘seem’ to be the most whacked out and no religion appears to be without them.


It's not easy, is it. Older generations, including my parents, raise children in the religion they themselves were brought up with and are taught it is the CORRECT way to believe in god. But how do they know what's true and what isn't?  I guess if you can believe that someone walked on water then you may as well believe in the whole kit & kaboodle, right? But if your children learn about other religions they might see more sense in some other one ... or maybe they see no sense in any of them. Oooops!


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

SetWave said:


> It's as if you are quoting her word for word.


Wow!


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 14, 2021)

Many of my clients are Muslim, primarily from war torn countries. I am always treated with the utmost respect. These are some of the warmest, kindest people I have ever met. They greatly appreciate what this country has offered them, and do their best to give back to the community. Their children are polite, my teacher friends tell me they are a joy to
teach. It is inaccurate to say that all Muslims know how to do is to destroy. Islamophobia has no place on this forum.


----------



## SetWave (Apr 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Many of my clients are Muslim, primarily from war torn countries. I am always treated with the utmost respect. These are some of the warmest, kindest people I have ever met. They greatly appreciate what this country has offered them, and do their best to give back to the community. Their children are polite, my teacher friends tell me they are a joy to
> teach. It is inaccurate to say that all Muslims know how to do is to destroy. Islamophobia has no place on this forum.


There is no attempt to disparage all Muslims and I'm happy to know of your good treatment. Yet, the account I've offered is factual and disturbing. Yes, many people of all cultures can be warm and kind with some of them not so wonderful. I actually worked with a guy from the middle east who told us he would work with us but he could not be our friend. That is just wrong at the core.
As for my friend she says that many of the kids and parents are polite and helpful yet it only takes one or two bad apples to spoil the bunch.


----------



## Warrigal (Apr 14, 2021)

Ramadan has just started and I hope to be invited to an Iftar meal this year. Our minister is arranging it with his Muslim contacts. Last year this was not possible because of COVID.

Does anyone know what a suitable gift would be to give to the hosts?


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

SetWave said:


> View attachment 158682


Lord, please forgive me for laughing so hard!


----------



## Verisure (Apr 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Many of my clients are Muslim, primarily from war torn countries. I am always treated with the utmost respect. These are some of the warmest, kindest people I have ever met. They greatly appreciate what this country has offered them, and do their best to give back to the community. Their children are polite, my teacher friends tell me they are a joy to
> teach. *It is inaccurate to say that all Muslims know how to do is to destroy. Islamophobia has no place on this forum.*



No one said, "all Muslims know how to do is to destroy" and *my comments are based upon reality*. Pure reality. Not islamophobic ignorance.

I have a statement of my own:
It is inaccurate to say that all Muslims treat the host nation and its population with the utmost respect and they are the warmest, kindest people who greatly appreciate what this/that/or the other country has offered them and that they do their best to give back to the community. Islamofilia has no place on this forum.


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 14, 2021)

Warri, I always brought sweets of some sort to Iftar. Cakes, pastries, candy. Brown sugar fudge has been the favourite so far.


----------



## Bee (Apr 15, 2021)

I have 2 sons that are married to two sisters who just happen to be Muslims....one sister will eat anything of a pig, the other sister will not but doesn't stop her daughter from eating what she likes.

The eldest daughter in law is a fully fledged teacher and teaches in a Church of England school in London.

I couldn't wish for 2 better daughters in law and they treat me like they would their own mother.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Bee said:


> I have 2 sons that are married to two sisters who just happen to be Muslims....one sister will eat anything of a pig, the other sister will not but doesn't stop her daughter from eating what she likes.
> 
> The eldest daughter in law is a fully fledged teacher and teaches in a Church of England school in London.
> 
> I couldn't wish for 2 better daughters in law and they treat me like they would their own mother.


It is difficult to see what part of those lovely daughters-in-law are Muslim. Just saying.


----------



## Bee (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> It is difficult to see what part of those lovely daughters-in-law are Muslim. Just saying.



Would you like me to ask them to reply to you and confirm they are Muslims 

Not all Muslims are killers the same as not all Catholic Priests are pediaphiles.........as for myself I am an athiest.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Apr 15, 2021)

SetWave said:


> There is no attempt to disparage all Muslims and I'm happy to know of your good treatment. Yet, the account I've offered is factual and disturbing. Yes, many people of all cultures can be warm and kind with some of them not so wonderful. I actually worked with a guy from the middle east who told us he would work with us but he could not be our friend. That is just wrong at the core.
> As for my friend she says that many of the kids and parents are polite and helpful yet it only takes one or two bad apples to spoil the bunch.


I am just happy that it’s not only the Catholics that have to deal with a bad rap on the forum.  . IMO, religion has less to due with the behavior of people and their children, then the people themselves.  A LOT of people are just self serving jerks.


----------



## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> The Muslims have no respect for Europe or our kindness.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Bee said:


> Would you like me to ask them to reply to you and confirm they are Muslims
> 
> Not all Muslims are killers the same as not all Catholic Priests are pediaphiles.........as for myself I am an athiest.


You clearly do not understand me.

1). One of them *eats pork*. It is forbidden in Islam
2). The other one *allows her children to eat it*. Forbidden in Islam.
3). By your default omission, it would appear that neither one of your sons is Muslim. It is not allowed for *Moslem women to marry a non-Molsem man*. The reason being that children are automatically Moslem if born to a Moslem man, otherwise they are not. This is why it is not very uncommon for non-Moslem women to marry Moslem men but very rare for non-Moslem men to marry Moslem woman. The religion of the women is less important and generally Moslem women are compelled to have her man convert to Islam.
4). The parents of your daughters-in-law apparently *allowed them to marry a non-Moslem*. Not allowed in Islam. It is that very situation that has given rise to "Honour killings".

So, my earlier comment stands fast: _"It is difficult to see what part of those lovely daughters-in-law are Muslim"._


----------



## Keesha (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> There is nothing positive about that situation and it only takes 2 of them in any class to make teaching impossible. What really made my decision easy to make was that the good kids in that class couldn't learn anything because of all the noise and disturbances.  The Muslims have no respect for Europe or our kindness. The only thing they know is to destroy ... and that's what they do. And you're right. I'm a man and it's difficult enough, but for a woman, it's much, much worse. I have a son who's in school and I moved twice just to keep as far away as possible from you-know-who so my boy can get an education.


While I agree with many of your viewpoints on this thread, I can’t  agree with this one.

Quote: the muslins have no respect for Europe or to our kindness. The only thing they know is to destroy.’ End quote .

You have just stereotyped an entire group of people as violently destructive. That’s not only not fair, it’s completely wrong.

While you recognize Christian Extremists , you fail to recognize Islam Extremists. These are the people who take their religion to a level of abnormal perception and understanding who become violent and destructive. 9/11 bombing of aircrafts into the NY twin towers was an example of Islam extremists but they aren’t ALL like that.

If you can understand the Christian Extremists, then it doesn’t take much more widening of your perception to see Islam Extremists and refrain from painting all Muslims with the same brush stroke.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Keesha said:


> While I agree with many of your viewpoints on this thread, I can’t  agree with this one.
> 
> Quote: the muslins have no respect for Europe or to our kindness. The only thing they know is to destroy.’ End quote .
> 
> ...


To make this reply as short as possible (and to avoid unnecessary verbal chicanery) I will be brief.
* I am speaking from experience in Sweden, on the continent, and from my travels that include maybe 20 Molsem countries in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europe.
* If I said "Canadians are good hockey players" would you tell me I am wrong to stereotype them and point out that not all Canadians can play hockey? We all stereotype or should I call it "prejudice", which if acquired carefully and justly is a good thing.  If I see a group of rough-looking men with knives loitering in an alleyway, clearing their throats and spitting would you begrudge me if I avoid them by walking on the other side of the street?


----------



## old medic (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> What do you have against us Agnostics?


Well Your in the same exact class as far as I'm concerned when it comes to my statement.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> To make this reply as short as possible (and to avoid unnecessary verbal chicanery) I will be brief.
> * I am speaking from experience in Sweden, on the continent, and from my travels that include maybe 20 Molsem countries in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europe.
> * If I said "Canadians are good hockey players" would you tell me I am wrong to stereotype them and point out that not all Canadians can play hockey? We all stereotype or should I call it "prejudice", which if acquired carefully and justly is a good thing.  If I see a group of rough-looking men with knives loitering in an alleyway, clearing their throats and spitting would you begrudge me if I avoid them by walking on the other side of the street?


If you said canadian hockey players are destructive, I’d say you’re wrong but I don’t really care enough to turn it into a huge disagreement.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

old medic said:


> Well Your in the same exact class as far as I'm concerned when it comes to my statement.


As an Agnostic, I do not disbelieve in God.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Keesha said:


> If you said canadian hockey players are destructive, I’d say you’re wrong but I don’t really care enough to turn it into a huge disagreement.


Smart lady.


----------



## old medic (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> As an Agnostic, I do not disbelieve in God.


LOL The Jurys out crowd... I see a lot of issues from organized religions... even among the similar branches of the same beliefs.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Apr 15, 2021)

SetWave said:


> My friend is a teacher in Sweden and she says dealing with the Muslim kids is a nightmare.


Did your friend say why it was a nightmare?
@Verisure  Why was it such a horrible experience for you?


----------



## Keesha (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Smart lady.


Not really. I respond without really thinking. I don’t know many Muslim men except our optometrist who is probably the most soft spoken man with the best bedside manner I’ve ever met .  I’ve worked with a few in the past and all have been most respectful.

My husband used to work with many and has had no problems with them but neither of us have travelled to any of the places you speak of so perhaps they act different there. I don’t really know. Maybe it’s that I dislike generalizations or stereotypes in general , since they unfairly gauge a large clump of people as clones.

Anyway, .....


----------



## Bee (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> You clearly do not understand me.
> 
> 1). One of them *eats pork*. It is forbidden in Islam
> 2). The other one *allows her children to eat it*. Forbidden in Islam.
> ...


You are wrong with that statement, my eldest daughter in law emigrated from France ( where the family lived) to be with my son and marry him and it came with the blessing of her eldest brother who told her to follow her heart and he was actually married to a French non Muslim woman....when my daughter in laws parents found out they would have nothing to do with her.....I don't think you know as much as you think you do.............I suggest you google The Berbers.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Did your friend say why it was a nightmare?
> @Verisure  Why was it such a horrible experience for you?


I was teaching English, German, and French and my idea of teaching was to help young people get a good education or at least help them as far along the way to their own goals. But, alas! There were three boys in my class, all of them from a similar part of the world and speaking the same language. They had no interest in learning anything and they would just speak in their language just as much as they pleased. I talk with other teachers about the problem and they said it was *a common problem* and that if you separate them in the classroom they’ll just shout louder so the other ones can hear them. They spoke all the time during my lecture and during reading and writing times. One day they found a ringtone that was like the sound of an atomic bomb and they pushed that button (full volume) any time at all during the whole day and then laughed their fool heads off, thinking it was really funny. You see, in Sweden, you cannot touch the students. You cannot push them. You cannot make them leave the classroom because insurance is such that if anything happens outside of the class it is then your fault. You can only tell (ask) them to settle down but sometimes they tell you “F you!” and call you derogatory names like “F-ing Swedish shit!” There is nothing you can do. As I said I was a teacher’s assistant studying to become a teacher but after that year I gave it up and got a job as a literary translator instead.


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## Keesha (Apr 15, 2021)

Very interesting. I had no idea.


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## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

The problem, @Verisure seems to lie with your school's No Discipline Policy.  This must be addressed before you blame obnoxious KIDS for being obnoxious.  Is it legal in Sweden to have parent - teacher conferences?  Did you not go to your supervising teacher or administration?  I have no idea of school policies in Sweden, could you enlighten me on how problem students are dealt with?  Thanks.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Not really. I respond without really thinking. I don’t know many Muslim men except our optometrist who is probably the most soft spoken man with the best bedside manner I’ve ever met .  I’ve worked with a few in the past and all have been most respectful.
> 
> My husband used to work with many and has had no problems with them but neither of us have travelled to any of the places you speak of so perhaps they act different there. I don’t really know. Maybe it’s that I dislike generalizations or stereotypes in general , since they unfairly gauge a large clump of people as clones.
> 
> Anyway, .....


I feel the same as you about stereotypes and most definitely about racism although I think prejudices are not only OK but good if they are not abused. Still, I may have expressed myself in a way that wasn't precise enough and might have given the wrong impression about my feelings on the subject. Try to understand that Sweden is in a bad way with regards to the migrants and we are frustrated over the government's disregard for what we endure in everyday life.  My generation built this country and put us at number one on the World Democracy Index. We are now down to number three (or thereabouts) and falling fast and we are seeing our country and culture being ravaged and destroyed by those who have no appreciation for what they have been offered on a silver plate. Am I exagerrating? Decide for yourself.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Bee said:


> You are wrong with that statement, my eldest daughter in law emigrated from France ( where the family lived) to be with my son and marry him and it came with the blessing of her eldest brother who told her to follow her heart and he was actually married to a French non Muslim woman....when my daughter in laws parents found out they would have nothing to do with her.....I don't think you know as much as you think you do.............I suggest you google The Berbers.


I have travelled extensively in North Africa and I know the Berbers. I like them. They are not Arabs.


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## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

When I lived in Europe, in this case, England in particular, I soon realized most of Europe would never be able to handle people of color and with different cultural ways.  You guys were not set up for that.


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## Keesha (Apr 15, 2021)

It’s ok. We all have our different viewpoints and perspectives and can’t realistically expect us all to have the same ones.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> The problem, @Verisure seems to lie with your school's No Discipline Policy.  This must be addressed before you blame obnoxious KIDS for being obnoxious.  Is it legal in Sweden to have parent - teacher conferences?  Did you not go to your supervising teacher or administration?  I have no idea of school policies in Sweden, could you enlighten me on how problem students are dealt with?  Thanks.


Very sorry but I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. This is our country, It is our culture. We raise our children to have respect for our language, our culture our history our country and our teachers. Our culture is based upon respect, not on discipline. It is shameful for us to be disrespectful. We don't need disapline other than to be told *"You've done wrong." * 

We have periodical one-on-one teacher/parent meetings plus student progress reports with the parents. "Problem students" as you say generally enrol in a trade school rather than going on to university. But the sort of problem you and I are speaking about is something we've never had before.


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## Knight (Apr 15, 2021)

In this time of political correcteness who would dare to focus on only one or two when there are multiple choices? 

Chinese traditional religion[c]    394 million    5%
African traditional religions    100 million[7]    1.2%
Sikhism    26 million    0.30%
Mormonism    >16,7 million    >0,21%
Judaism    14.7 million[8]    0.18%
Spiritism    14.5 million[9]    0.18%
Baháʼí    5.0 million[10]    0.07%
Jainism    4.2 million    0.05%
Shinto    4.0 million    0.05%
Cao Dai    4.0 million    0.05%
Zoroastrianism    2.6 million    0.03%
Tenrikyo    2.0 million    0.02%
Animism    1.9 million    0.02%
Druze    1.2 million    0.015%
Neo-Paganism    1.0 million    0.01%
Unitarian Universalism    0.8 million    0.01%
Rastafari    0.6 million    0.007%
total    7.79 billion    100%


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> When I lived in Europe, in this case, England in particular, I soon realized most of Europe would never be able to handle people of color and with different cultural ways.  You guys were not set up for that.


I agree. Europe, in general, is very similar in social appreciation so that we all have a lot in common with one another. We may have north-south-eastern mentalities that differ but we are all on the same page with regards to education and the importance of Democracy. That's the key word ... DEMOCRACY. Whether we are politically to the right, to the left, or in between we all praise Democracy and hold it dear to our hearts.


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## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

Yes, @Verisure, the U.S. is more like a quilt, or a stew that everyone adds to.  Actually, we're a mess, but hopefully people will get together to clean it up. 

When I was a child, this neighborhood I'm in was Italian, then became a Holocaust refugee camp.  All the immigrants were very anxious to be American.  Now, this same neighborhood turned 90% Russian, but as of now has about one-third Muslim, mostly from Yemen and Asian, mostly from China.  Overall, they are lovely, hard-working people with great kids.  The Russians...............well, that's a different story.

I love most European culture and history.  I can understand why you and others want to remain so particular about what was and what is.   I am not wishing for it, believe me, but you may be fighting a losing battle. 

You said "Our culture is based upon respect"  That's a beautiful thing to say.


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## SetWave (Apr 15, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Did your friend say why it was a nightmare?


They are rude, disrespectful, throw things at her, ignore her, come and go from the room as they please and tell she's a woman and they don't have to listen to her. The school does nothing.


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## SetWave (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I was teaching English, German, and French and my idea of teaching was to help young people get a good education or at least help them as far along the way to their own goals. But, alas! There were three boys in my class, all of them from a similar part of the world and speaking the same language. They had no interest in learning anything and they would just speak in their language just as much as they pleased. I talk with other teachers about the problem and they said it was *a common problem* and that if you separate them in the classroom they’ll just shout louder so the other ones can hear them. They spoke all the time during my lecture and during reading and writing times. One day they found a ringtone that was like the sound of an atomic bomb and they pushed that button (full volume) any time at all during the whole day and then laughed their fool heads off, thinking it was really funny. You see, in Sweden, you cannot touch the students. You cannot push them. You cannot make them leave the classroom because insurance is such that if anything happens outside of the class it is then your fault. You can only tell (ask) them to settle down but sometimes they tell you “F you!” and call you derogatory names like “F-ing Swedish shit!” There is nothing you can do. As I said I was a teacher’s assistant studying to become a teacher but after that year I gave it up and got a job as a literary translator instead.


Exactly!


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## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

SetWave said:


> They are rude, disrespectful, throw things at her, ignore her, come and go from the room as they please and tell she's a woman and they don't have to listen to her. *The school does nothing.*


WHY does the school do nothing?  Why don't they have a conference about this problem?  That's what I don't get.


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## SetWave (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I feel the same as you about stereotypes and most definitely about racism although I think prejudices are not only OK but good if they are not abused. Still, I may have expressed myself in a way that wasn't precise enough and might have given the wrong impression about my feelings on the subject. Try to understand that Sweden is in a bad way with regards to the migrants and we are frustrated over the government's disregard for what we endure in everyday life.  My generation built this country and put us at number one on the World Democracy Index. We are now down to number three (or thereabouts) and falling fast and we are seeing our country and culture being ravaged and destroyed by those who have no appreciation for what they have been offered on a silver plate. Am I exagerrating? Decide for yourself.


Yes. I feel Sweden generously opened their arms welcoming the immigrants needing shelter from a war torn homeland . . . and in return . . . little thanks and a lot of ugliness. I encountered some that were kind and thankful but they are in the minority.


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## SetWave (Apr 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> WHY does the school do nothing?  Why don't they have a conference about this problem?  That's what I don't get.


Good question. Verisure has more direct experience and has explained very well.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

SetWave said:


> They are rude, disrespectful, throw things at her, ignore her, come and go from the room as they please and tell she's a woman and they don't have to listen to her. The school does nothing.


That's right. They beat children where they come from. This is a one-part good and two-parts bad equation. *Good* (I suppose) in that it keeps their schools under control. *Bad 1*). because teaching respect by fear is not such a wonderful way to treat anyone and *Bad 2*). because when they come here they have no respect (read fear) so they trash anything and everything they see.


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## Pepper (Apr 15, 2021)

There's a problem to be dealt with and ignoring it makes it worse.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> There's a problem to be dealt with and ignoring it makes it worse.


I don't know if "ignore" is the right word for it.  This may sound very strange but in Sweden, we are not allowed to speak about it. I'd call it "forbidden". Just look at my first comments on the subject here on this thread. They weren't met with too much enthusiasm and it was even hinted that I (or my opinion) might be Islamophobic. Maybe it's my fault for not expressing myself very well but that is the sort of thing we see in Sweden every day. I can give you so many outrageous examples of it that your head would spin. I mean, seriously, there are some really crazy things going on and I'm not even talking about the exaggerated reports either. Wielding the term "racist!" in Sweden is Carte Blanche. 

Let's get back to the subject of *broad-based religious teachings.* I think it's a good idea!


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Very sorry but I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. This is our country, It is our culture. We raise our children to have respect for our language, our culture our history our country and our teachers. Our culture is based upon respect, not on discipline. It is shameful for us to be disrespectful. We don't need disapline other than to be told *"You've done wrong." *
> 
> We have periodical one-on-one teacher/parent meetings plus student progress reports with the parents. "Problem students" as you say generally enrol in a trade school rather than going on to university. But the sort of problem you and I are speaking about is something we've never had before.


You would have never survived being a teachers assistant in an inner city school in USA; and might not survive in a nice school in a medium income area.  Our children can be, and frequently are awful


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## OneEyedDiva (Apr 15, 2021)

SetWave said:


> They are rude, disrespectful, throw things at her, ignore her, come and go from the room as they please and tell she's a woman and they don't have to listen to her. The school does nothing.


Regardless of their religion they just never got the proper upbringing. Their parents should find someplace else to send them if they are not going to teach and insist that their children be courteous. I must admit though, I have found *some* foreign Muslims to be rude. We are supposed to give each other the greetings whenever and wherever we see each other. I've noticed *some* foreign Muslim women ignore me when I do that so I just stopped doing it. It makes me sad to see and hear about Muslims not representing us in a positive light.


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## Verisure (Apr 15, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> You would have never survived being a teachers assistant in an inner city school in USA; and might not survive in a nice school in a medium income area.  Our children can be, and frequently are awful


I'm sure you're right about that. I went to high school in the US and I've seen some of it with my own eyes.


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## Verisure (Apr 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Regardless of their religion they just never got the proper upbringing. Their parents should find someplace else to send them if they are not going to teach and insist that their children be courteous. I must admit though, I have found *some* foreign Muslims to be rude. We are supposed to give each other the greetings whenever and wherever we see each other. I've noticed *some* foreign Muslim women ignore me when I do that so I just stopped doing it. It makes me sad to see and hear about Muslims not representing us in a positive light.



This is getting rather complicated.

* “Proper upbringing” is a relative thing.

* If (I say "if") the parents want their children to be "taught courteousness" (and for to be "insisted upon") then it is by default they would expect Swedish teachers to employ corporal punishment. That might be the norm in the countries from where they come but we don't do that in Sweden. We are *very proud* of it too.  

There's the dilemma, and contrary to what you seem to be saying, respect ought to have been instilled long before they reached primary and secondary schools. But, if respect is taught ('back home') through fear of pain by way of corporal punishment (or the threat of it) then what are we to do when they come here and run rampant without fear of a whacking? Well, you put it correctly when you say those parents who expect their children to be taught those things will blame us ... because we are "too soft".

It's a never-ending circle. We teach respect by showing respect. We don't call teachers Mr. or Mrs. so-and-so. We call one another by first names and that includes teacher-student relationships. We also don't employ corporal punishment or public shaming. If we were to change all of that in order to conduct some sort of integrational advance forward then we will be abandoning everything we stand for and I have little doubt that it won't be very long before we are the victims of the next civil war and we will be the ones seeking refuge rather than offering it to others.


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2021)

One thing I forgot to mention. Children who have been exposed to the horrors of war generally exhibit symptoms of PTSD/CPTSD.. The longer the exposure, the more likelihood the symptoms are protracted and severe. One of the

most frequent symptoms is anger, particularly among males. This holds true regardless of ethnicity, religion, etc. In my country, such children are assessed for trauma as part of their medical evaluation. If they are deemed at risk, they are sent to people like me. I hope these services are readily available in Sweden also.


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## Keesha (Apr 16, 2021)

Verisure said:


> This is getting rather complicated.
> 
> * “Proper upbringing” is a relative thing.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## Keesha (Apr 16, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I'm sure you're right about that. I went to high school in the US and I've seen some of it with my own eyes.


Yeah. Thank goodness you don’t have to.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 16, 2021)

SetWave said:


> They are rude, disrespectful, throw things at her, ignore her, come and go from the room as they please and tell she's a woman and they don't have to listen to her. The school does nothing.


Sounds like children in a normal pubic school in the USA .  After finding a particular foster child, in 5th grade, off campus once again, I asked the school could they at least try and keep him on the school grounds.  Couple years later, I noticed they had completely fenced in the school grounds in an effort to encase the students.


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## LSWOTE (Apr 16, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> Yes, but teaching that religion has had an impact on history is vastly different than "teaching" a particular religion.  For instance, when I was in school, we were of course taught about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, the fleeing of the pilgrims to America to avoid religious persecution, etc., as  historical fact without the instructor taking any position on whether said religion(s) were/are right or wrong in their basic beliefs.
> 
> I was particularly fascinated by a class I took in the ancient Egyptian religion, but I certainly had no thoughts of practicing it.


Yes, teaching history in general is something that could be done better.  But like so many subjects in school it is a difficult to do well.  I remember as a child hating history, though it was called "social studies", but as an adult I eat history up.  I have invested huge amounts of time as an adult learning about history because I understand its purpose and the need to understand history.  As they say, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  But kids have only a vague sense of the real-world and it is hard to appeal to a need to understand history and has to be approached more from an interest perspective, such as tales of adventure and romance.  Of course most of history is anything but adventure and romance.


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## Verisure (Apr 16, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> One thing I forgot to mention. Children who have been exposed to the horrors of war usually exhibit symptoms of PTSD/CPTSD.. The longer the exposure, the more likelihood the symptoms are protracted and severe. One of the
> 
> most frequent symptoms is anger, particularly among males. This holds true regardless of ethnicity, religion, etc.


Yes, I understand. Exposure to a brutal and/or dismal upbringing has the same effect. My experience in the Middle East, North Africa and even immigrants here in Europe supports this. I don’t know if you want me to go into details.


Shalimar said:


> In my country, such children are assessed for trauma as part of their medical evaluation. If they are deemed at risk, they are sent to people like me. I hope these services are readily available in Sweden also.


Yes, they are available in Sweden.


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## Gaer (Apr 16, 2021)

IMO:  Each person should seek his God in his own way.  Prayer should be given as a sacred communication between you and your God without spectators.  
Religion and it's dogmas are good in that they keep the thought of God in the mind of the masses, and hymns toGod are wonderful.
ifone REALLY  wants to speak with God and his angels, this should be done in your aloneness.


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## Irwin (Apr 16, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> One thing I forgot to mention. Children who have been exposed to the horrors of war generally exhibit symptoms of PTSD/CPTSD.. The longer the exposure, the more likelihood the symptoms are protracted and severe. One of the
> 
> most frequent symptoms is anger, particularly among males. This holds true regardless of ethnicity, religion, etc. In my country, such children are assessed for trauma as part of their medical evaluation. If they are deemed at risk, they are sent to people like me. I hope these services are readily available in Sweden also.


Children in poor, violent, inner city neighborhoods grow up in the same stressful environments as those in war torn countries. Studies have shown that their brains actually develop differently than children raised in healthy environments due to increased cortisol levels. Development of the hippocampus and the frontal cortex were stunted, causing learning disabilities, an insufficiently developed conscience, and poor impulse control. Development of the amygdalae was accelerated, causing emotional problems.

Add to that, easy access to firearms and you have a recipe for disaster.


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## Linda (Apr 18, 2021)

SetWave said:


> My friend is a teacher in Sweden and she says dealing with the Muslim kids is a nightmare.


So is my son, and you are correct.  There are serious problems with others too though not just Muslims.  Some of the teachers in Sweden are receiving death threats from their student's families.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 18, 2021)

SetWave said:


> Yes. I feel Sweden generously opened their arms welcoming the immigrants needing shelter from a war torn homeland . . . and in return . . . little thanks and a lot of ugliness. I encountered some that were kind and thankful but they are in the minority.


Sadly, this is true right across Europe. The migrants seem to think they have a right to live wherever they please, and we have an obligation to give them 5-star treatment.
Those who are from the British Commonwealth countries may feel they have a right to live in Britain, but the majority are from Middle Eastern countries.


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## Verisure (Apr 19, 2021)

Linda said:


> So is my son, and you are correct.  There are serious problems with others too though not just Muslims.  Some of the teachers in Sweden are receiving death threats from their student's families.


This is true. Many teachers (and social workers/employment officers) in Sweden have been threatened with murder and have been physically assaulted. Then there are the not-so-uncommon attacks in other parts of Europe such as the teacher in France who was beheaded in broad daylight on a public street and the British man who was dispatched in the very same manner in the UK.


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## Bee (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh! dear and this is the Church of England.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56779190


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## digifoss (Apr 19, 2021)

Over a lifetime of work I had the opportunity to work with people from all over the world from many country's and cultures, including blacks, whites Hispanics, people from India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Armenia, Eastern Europe, China, Japan, this was mostly in the 80s.  My opinion then and was always that all people are basically the same, all of us have the same basic goals in life, to take care of family, to live well and to prosper.  That was then.  Nowadays I can't listen to, watch or read anything without seeing, hearing or reading some kind of subliminal message trying to make me feel like I'm a racist, or to feel guilty about the color of my skin, or be ashamed of myself for having a good life


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## tbeltrans (Apr 19, 2021)

digifoss said:


> Over a lifetime of work I had the opportunity to work with people from all over the world from many country's and cultures, including blacks, whites Hispanics, people from India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Armenia, Eastern Europe, China, Japan, this was mostly in the 80s.  My opinion then and was always that all people are basically the same, all of us have the same basic goals in life, to take care of family, to live well and to prosper.  That was then.  Nowadays I can't listen to, watch or read anything without seeing, hearing or reading some kind of subliminal message trying to make me feel like I'm a racist, or to feel guilty about the color of my skin, or be ashamed of myself for having a good life


My experience echoes yours in many respects.  However, I realize that other people, in different situations have other experiences as reported in this thread.  We were working with other working people whose lives might be quite different from those being discussed elsewhere in this thread.

Tony


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## Verisure (Apr 19, 2021)

digifoss said:


> Over a lifetime of work I had the opportunity to work with people from all over the world from many country's and cultures, including blacks, whites Hispanics, people from India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Armenia, Eastern Europe, China, Japan, this was mostly in the 80s.  My opinion then and was always that all people are basically the same, all of us have the same basic goals in life, to take care of family, to live well and to prosper.  That was then.  Nowadays I can't listen to, watch or read anything without seeing, hearing or reading some kind of subliminal message trying to make me feel like I'm a racist, or to feel guilty about the color of my skin, or be ashamed of myself for having a good life


I do not agree. Your response has left several loopholes that you have not addressed.


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