# YUP,America is going to hell.



## Davey Jones (Nov 8, 2015)

I don't know how this slipped by me, its dated August 2015
What do you think.

Illinois is Now Allowing Muslims to Wear Burqas in Driver License Photos.

http://www.youngcons.com/illinois-is-now-allowing-muslims-to-wear-burqas-for-driver-license-photos/


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## QuickSilver (Nov 8, 2015)

So what.. (((((((yawn)))))))))

Except it's mostly FALSE...

http://www.snopes.com/sharia-compliant-illinois-drivers-licenses/

THis crap really bothers you?   You must not have other things to worry about..


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## Warrigal (Nov 8, 2015)

Thanks QS. I was just about to post that this story by the Young Conservatives is crying out for a fact check.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 8, 2015)

Besides that... women wearing the full covering are few and far between.. Most just wear a head scarf.  So much hysteria for a very small issue.

Then to title the thread "America is going to hell" !!  I'm sort of proud to live in a religious tolerant state.


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## jujube (Nov 8, 2015)

I think we're going to make it.  America has gone through some bad times before and has emerged with flags flying.  It will do it again.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 8, 2015)

Why is this considered a "bad time"?


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Nov 8, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Why is this considered a "bad time"?


Listening to the conservative pundits, the minions eat up their sermonizing about how bad it is in America.  We are so blessed to be here!!  We have so many freedoms and liberties other societies and cultures would enjoy... but don't/can't.  Our children and grandchildren have more opportunity that we ever thought of having.  What we enjoy as Americans is protected by the very best military in the World.  Few countries have the opportunity to elect their representatives and leaders.  Few countries would see the likes of Faux Noise telling us 24/7 how bad the "gubmint" is... without suffering severe consequences.  Yet, they continue to bestow nothing but negativity on a government and Constitution that allows them to do so.  
This is NOT a "bad time".  Would one rather be living through the Civil War in the 1860's?  Or, maybe you'd rather have lived through the Great Depression.  As we were growing up, folks were building fallout shelters because they feared the Russians would be attacking at any time.  The "Red, White, and Blue" has come though many hard times and continue to fly proudly over our Country.  Thanks to the sacrifice of many, I enjoyed rounds of golf the past two days... am free to worship where and how I please... owe not one dime to anyone as our home, cars, etc. are all paid for... have children and grandchildren who are doing well in their family units.  We live in a "good time" as far as I'm concerned!!!!!


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 8, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> Listening to the conservative pundits, the minions eat up their sermonizing about how bad it is in America.  We are so blessed to be here!!  We have so many freedoms and liberties other societies and cultures would enjoy... but don't/can't.  Our children and grandchildren have more opportunity that we ever thought of having.  What we enjoy as Americans is protected by the very best military in the World.  Few countries have the opportunity to elect their representatives and leaders.  Few countries would see the likes of Faux Noise telling us 24/7 how bad the "gubmint" is... without suffering severe consequences.  Yet, they continue to bestow nothing but negativity on a government and Constitution that allows them to do so.
> This is NOT a "bad time".  Would one rather be living through the Civil War in the 1860's?  Or, maybe you'd rather have lived through the Great Depression.  As we were growing up, folks were building fallout shelters because they feared the Russians would be attacking at any time.  The "Red, White, and Blue" has come though many hard times and continue to fly proudly over our Country.  Thanks to the sacrifice of many, I enjoyed rounds of golf the past two days... am free to worship where and how I please... owe not one dime to anyone as our home, cars, etc. are all paid for... have children and grandchildren who are doing well in their family units.  We live in a "good time" as far as I'm concerned!!!!!



:applause2: Very well said Grumpy Ol' Man, I feel the same way, couldn't agree more!  I'm blessed to be born and raised in America, especially during my time, wouldn't change a thing.  I find myself limiting the amount of time I can watch Fox news or listen to conservative talk show radio, as the anger, repetitive negative sound bites, scare tactics to frighten the public, and just hateful criticism of this country and all those who are different from them is incredibly toxic.  Honestly, life is too short to hear that propaganda over and over again day after day and year after year.  I pity those who believe it.

I've enjoyed all the beauty, freedoms and benefits of living in these United States all of my life, and I would like to see it get even better, not flushed down the toilet from right wing hatred and nonsense.  We should all be proud and work together to lift this great country up, it can be even better than it already is, no doubt about that at all.


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## tnthomas (Nov 8, 2015)

> I have a feeling Ann Coulter would object.


 Link

ohmygosh I would certainly hope so!


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## QuickSilver (Nov 8, 2015)

I think when Conservative say this is a very BAD time in America they actually mean that they cannot express their bigotry like they used to be able to..  they are becoming the minority and people are calling them on it.


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## tnthomas (Nov 8, 2015)

quicksilver said:


> i think when conservative say this is a very bad time in america they actually mean that they cannot express their bigotry like they used to be able to..  They are becoming the minority and people are calling them on it.



+1  qft.


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## imp (Nov 8, 2015)

*Let's Go All the Way With It!*

Since my face is scarred I demand that I not be forced to show it on my D.L. 

I demand that my "rights" allow me to wear a mask!    imp


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## Warrigal (Nov 8, 2015)

Or you could just stand behind a fence like tnthomas :grin:


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## imp (Nov 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Or you could just stand behind a fence like tnthomas :grin:



Ah....Perhaps you folks down under did not see Tim Allen's "Home Improvement" series? I suspect the picture is a takeoff on Tim's neighbor, whose face was eternally kept hidden by their backyard fence.   imp


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## AZ Jim (Nov 8, 2015)

Anyway it is clearly stated (if you read the Snopes data) the face cannot be covered.  Head scarves are allowed but not facial coverings.


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## imp (Nov 8, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Anyway it is clearly stated (if you read the Snopes data) the face cannot be covered.  Head scarves are allowed *but not facial coverings*.



That would make sense. Should I push my request, anyway?   imp


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## The Inspector (Nov 8, 2015)

> *YUP,America is going to hell*




 People worry about the wrong stuff. The U,S, was torturing people and using propaganda to start wars.
Someone might be wearing a Burqa and the country is 
felling apart.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/01/no_author/reagans-cia-propaganda/


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## chic (Nov 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Anyway it is clearly stated (if you read the Snopes data) the face cannot be covered. Head scarves are allowed but not facial coverings.



But her face wouldn't show at all in a traditional burqa which covers a woman from head to toe. I think this was Davey's point. Her face would be completely hidden. Hardly any point in taking a picture at all.


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## Warrigal (Nov 9, 2015)

chic said:


> But her face wouldn't show at all in a traditional burqa which covers a woman from head to toe. I think this was Davey's point. Her face would be completely hidden. Hardly any point in taking a picture at all.


And in that case she would be denied a licence.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 9, 2015)

I still Don't understand what the big deal is..  Who cares.. and how does this impact anyone?  I look nothing like my DL picture..  I don't even have the same hair color any longer.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 9, 2015)

What about a mugshot?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 9, 2015)

May I ask what is wrong with being sensitive to someone's religion.. Christians certainly want everyone to be...  Is it because we don't agree with the custom and requirements.. Or is it because we just don't like anything related to  the Muslim faith?   What does it really matter anyway whether a few women are in a Burqua..  Should they not be able to drive?   Do you realize how very few women this is?  Most females in that sect are forbidden to drive by custom anyway and the few that do... is it really hurting anything?   There are must more pressing things to get upset about.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes, there is, my wings weren't very good yesterday for the game...


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## Robusta (Nov 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> May I ask what is wrong with being sensitive to someone's religion.. Christians certainly want everyone to be...  Is it because we don't agree with the custom and requirements.. Or is it because we just don't like anything related to  the Muslim faith?   What does it really matter anyway whether a few women are in a Burqua..  Should they not be able to drive?   Do you realize how very few women this is?  Most females in that sect are forbidden to drive by custom anyway and the few that do... is it really hurting anything?   There are must more pressing things to get upset about.



This has nothing to do with being sensitive to religion. This has every thing to do with equal application of the law. Driving is not a right,when you chose to maintain a drivers license,you agree to all the rules attendant. Having your face on your license is one of them.
  All over this nation the Amish are required in violation of their beleifs to mark their buggies with flashing lights or reflective markings. In order to maintain a social civilization there needs to be some level compliance with things that may run counter to your personal ideals.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think when Conservative say this is a very BAD time in America they actually mean that they cannot express their bigotry like they used to be able to..  they are becoming the minority and people are calling them on it.



Exactly!


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## QuickSilver (Nov 9, 2015)

Robusta said:


> This has nothing to do with being sensitive to religion. This has every thing to do with equal application of the law. Driving is not a right,when you chose to maintain a drivers license,you agree to all the rules attendant. Having your face on your license is one of them.
> All over this nation the Amish are required in violation of their beleifs to mark their buggies with flashing lights or reflective markings. In order to maintain a social civilization there needs to be some level compliance with things that may run counter to your personal ideals.



Suppose the law was that everyone be required to have a nude photograph on their drivers license?  Would you comply.  According to the tenets of their religion having their faces and bare arms visible to anyone but their husband is a sin and akin to them appearing nude..   Do you not understand why some exceptions are the right thing to do...??   Sometime a bit of understanding and empathy is a good thing... NO?


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## BobF (Nov 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Suppose the law was that everyone be required to have a nude photograph on their drivers license?  Would you comply.  According to the tenets of their religion having their faces and bare arms visible to anyone but their husband is a sin and akin to them appearing nude..   Do you not understand why some exceptions are the right thing to do...??   Sometime a bit of understanding and empathy is a good thing... NO?



Being covered head to toe is not part of the Quran teachings at all.  Those are just directives of certain groups leaders so just go without driving privaleges if you don't abide by the laws of the land, city, state where you live.   The words used in the Quran are modesty.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 9, 2015)

Many customs and practices  of some sects of Christians do not appear in the Bible either..  or are a very literal interpretation.   Quite a few Christian traditions are actually pagan in origin.. as a matter of fact.. nearly ALL of the Christmas traditions are pagan... from the Yule Log to the Christmas tree and wreaths...  Nothing at all to do with the Bible..


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## AZ Jim (Nov 9, 2015)

chic said:


> But her face wouldn't show at all in a traditional burqa which covers a woman from head to toe. I think this was Davey's point. Her face would be completely hidden. Hardly any point in taking a picture at all.


  But his premise is untrue.  Full face concealment is illegal on drivers licenses that was my point.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 9, 2015)

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/LWVJ.pdf


 
Over the years CAIR has received numerous reports from driver’s license applicants claiming


that they were denied religious accommodation. CAIR has obtained public records from


driver’s license agencies in all states. This review reached the following findings:


&#56256;&#56377; 

Religious accommodation issues impact men and women in the Christian, Jewish, Sikh,



and Muslim communities.


&#56256;&#56377; 

Most states, except Georgia, Kentucky and New Hampshire, have addressed religious



accommodation concerns in codes, policy manuals or administrative practices.


&#56256;&#56377; 

Five states—Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Missouri, and Maine—recognize only certain



religious practices.


&#56256;&#56377; 

The other 42 states have adopted more inclusive approaches to religious accommodation



policies.


&#56256;&#56377; 

Contrary to earlier news reports, the trend in favor of religious accommodation increased



after 9/11. While three states—California and the Carolinas— scaled back some of their


religious exemptions, six states—Alabama, Maine, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and West


Virginia—increased the exemptions



* 
 
Face veils


 
* 
 
Departments of motor vehicles vary considerably in their treatment of veiled women.


*Many states do not allow pictures with face covering


 
 
 
The following twenty-two states fall in this category: Alabama, Colorado, Delaware, Florida,


Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico,


New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, and


Wyoming.*


*Many states are silent on the issue


 
* 
 
Nineteen states are included in this category. These are: Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Georgia,


Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New


Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, and Vermont.


*Several states offer specific accommodations


 
* 
 
Nine states fall into this category.


South Carolina, Michigan and West Virginia allow veiled women privacy in taking a fullfaced


picture.


Kansas, Pennsylvania and Indiana allow veiled women a no-photo driver’s license.


Montana exempts religious veils from the requirement of a full-faced picture.


Washington allows pictures of veiled women, but stipulates that such driver’s licenses are


not valid for identification purposes.


Nevada allows photos with “drastic alteration of appearance.”


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## Debby (Nov 9, 2015)

Robusta said:


> This has nothing to do with being sensitive to religion. This has every thing to do with equal application of the law. Driving is not a right,when you chose to maintain a drivers license,you agree to all the rules attendant. Having your face on your license is one of them.
> All over this nation the Amish are required in violation of their beleifs to mark their buggies with flashing lights or reflective markings. In order to maintain a social civilization there needs to be some level compliance with things that may run counter to your personal ideals.




I was under the impression that the original article's point had been invalidated....that they aren't allowed to cover their face so why are several here still talking as though they are?


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## Debby (Nov 9, 2015)

BobF said:


> Being covered head to toe is not part of the Quran teachings at all.  Those are just directives of certain groups leaders so just go without driving privaleges if you don't abide by the laws of the land, city, state where you live.   The words used in the Quran are modesty.




And the Bible doesn't insist that you confess your sins to some guy in a box and then do penance but the Catholics insist on it as necessary.  Every denomination or religious body has their symbols and dogma and as long as they abide by our laws (photo on DL) who cares if they chose to dress more modestly than most of us?  

We just got over a stupid fight over new immigrants wearing a niqab when they take the oath of citizenship and the naysayers made a point of not mentioning the fact that prior to a Muslim woman taking the oath, she has to uncover her face in front of a female official to have her identity verified.  Is this a similar situation where a writer is attempting to sway public opinion against Muslims by not telling all the truth?


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## Davey Jones (Nov 9, 2015)

re: burqa in Ill, Looks like I was outdated. Sorry about that...

Wonder what a cop does when he stops one with a burqa  after asking for a drivers license.
We all know some cops are not going to accept it.  Stay tuned to evening news.


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## Cookie (Nov 9, 2015)

Why are some people worried about it anyway?  Is it fear that Muslims will take over the world?  Davy, usually ladies who wear burqas aren't driving, the men are.


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## Davey Jones (Nov 9, 2015)




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## imp (Nov 9, 2015)

*"Suppose the law was that everyone be required to have a nude photograph on their drivers license"

*I'd IMMEDIATELY apply for a job at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles!  :magnify:

imp


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## chic (Nov 10, 2015)

BobF said:


> Being covered head to toe is not part of the Quran teachings at all. Those are just directives of certain groups leaders so just go without driving privaleges if you don't abide by the laws of the land, city, state where you live. The words used in the Quran are modesty.



I agree to an extent. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Play by the rules or don't drive. Why is there not separation of church and state in this issue? It would cause less confusion. No one is forcing a muslim woman to do anything she considers immoral. She just won't be able to drive a motor vehicle. What's so bad about that?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 10, 2015)

chic said:


> I agree to an extent. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Play by the rules or don't drive. Why is there not separation of church and state in this issue? It would cause less confusion. No one is forcing a muslim woman to do anything she considers immoral. She just won't be able to drive a motor vehicle. What's so bad about that?



said with a healthy dose of sarcasm..


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