# British Election



## Josiah (May 6, 2015)

How about you UKers giving us a little run down on the upcoming election?


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## Capt Lightning (May 6, 2015)

Josiah, most of us are sick and tired of the election.  They will promise us anything to get a vote, but it will all turn out to be lies and empty  gestures.   The most 'dangerous'  element will be the roll of the SNP.  Now, they have done some good things that make Scotland a great place to live, but their aim is for an independent socialist Scotland, defence replaced by a white flag and the Westminster government bowing to their every loony left demand.

Doubtless they will win a majority in Scotland, but it is vital that one of the major UK parties gets a majority so that the SNP's influence can be kept north of the border.    Well, that's my view anyway.


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## Josiah (May 6, 2015)

Thanks Captain. British and American politicians may be equally hypocritical, but British politics is very much a different kettle of fish.


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## merlin (May 6, 2015)

Capt Lightning said:


> Josiah, most of us are sick and tired of the election.  They will promise us anything to get a vote, but it will all turn out to be lies and empty  gestures.   The most 'dangerous'  element will be the roll of the SNP.  Now, they have done some good things that make Scotland a great place to live, but their aim is for an independent socialist Scotland, defence replaced by a white flag and the Westminster government bowing to their every loony left demand.
> 
> Doubtless they will win a majority in Scotland, but it is vital that one of the major UK parties gets a majority so that the SNP's influence can be kept north of the border.    Well, that's my view anyway.



I agree with you Captain, we are also sick and tired of politicians as well as the election, they are in the main totally self absorbed, and make out they are all for helping anybody who will vote for them. You basically can't believe a word they say these days, not that they ever were entirely trustworthy!!

Because it promises to be a very close run result, it will make good entertainment tomorrow night, that's probably the only interesting thing about it, as after the election, whoever gets in power it will be more of the same I fear....... Its time for a couple of Annie's G & Ts


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## Glinda (May 6, 2015)

I'm sorry you're all so depressed about it.  Did I see somewhere that there is a female running for PM?  Or was she someone from a minor party that doesn't have a chance?  As much of an anglophile as I am, I confess I have never quite understood the parliamentary system.


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## AZ Jim (May 6, 2015)

Glinda said:


> I'm sorry you're all so depressed about it.  Did I see somewhere that there is a female running for PM?  Or was she someone from a minor party that doesn't have a chance?  As much of an anglophile as I am, I confess I have never quite understood the parliamentary system.



From film and video it looks like a "organized brawl".  I know that is a hasty viewpoint.


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## Ameriscot (May 6, 2015)

It's complicated.  Yes, Glinda, the leader of the Scottish National Party is female but she isn't running for a Westminster seat so could not be PM. She is called First Minister and is the leader of the Scottish Parliament.  

Only possibilities are Cameron - a Tory/Conservative, and Ed Milliband - Labour.  There is also the Green party, the Liberal Democrats, and Plaid Cymru which is the same as the SNP only it's Wales only.  No way will I try to explain coalitions, etc. which is what we've had for the last disastrous 5 years.  It all still does my head in as I'm still getting used to it!  

No party will get a clear majority, so after tomorrow there will be lots of deals being made.  Could take weeks.  It took 3 days in 2010 election.

I voted about 10 days ago as I do a postal vote.  I will not say which party I voted for as I don't want to get into any arguments.  However, I am a paying member of one party but am voting for another. 

Josiah, aye, a big bottle of gin!!


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## Laurie (May 6, 2015)

Interesting times.

Our system is such that the English get more votes than the Scots, Welsh or Irish (one person, one vote, and there's more of them!).

For the first time ever there may be a Westminster government that the English haven't voted for!

The rest of us are used to -it  the Scots have not voted for a Conservative government since the  50s and the Welsh never since universal suffrage, but all too often we've ended up with one, like now.

The English say that the tail is wagging the dog, what they mean is that it is no longer they who may be doing the wagging!


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## Josiah (May 6, 2015)

Why are the Scots so much more liberal (in the US sense) than the English?


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## merlin (May 6, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Why are the Scots so much more liberal (in the US sense) than the English?



For a variety of reasons Josiah, history and the fact that the government is centred in London the wealthiest part of the UK. http://is.gd/PKk0ku Here is an answer I found which makes sense to me:



> My theory is that the Scots, like the Welsh and Irish, were originally Gaelic peoples, whose society was based on clans.
> 
> Clan societies were more egalitarian, and for males to rise in stature within the clan, they often had to prove themselves. Often this was on the battlefield, but later it was through academic achievement, invention, or something else.
> 
> ...




The latest on the election http://is.gd/RSNyM5 http://is.gd/G6srnN


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Why are the Scots so much more liberal (in the US sense) than the English?



A good article from our favourite newspaper - the Guardian. 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...cial-attitudes-survey-tells-us-about-scotland


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

I'm quite sure those in the US heard about the independence referendum which took place last September in which those who reside in Scotland, age 16 and up and were eligible to vote, on whether Scotland should 'divorce' the rest of the UK.  One reason was that Scots would never again get a government they didn't vote for and would only have a government that cared about Scotland.  There are only 5 million in Scotland and 55 million in the rest of the UK.  The vote was 45 yes, 55 no.  There could always be another vote.

This is why there is a lot of anti-Scotland sentiment being heard during this election.  Just heard a man being interviewed on the news saying that Scots shouldn't have a say in an 'English' parliament.  Funny, I thought it was a UK parliament.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

There's a joke that there are more pandas in the zoo (there are 2 in Edinburgh) than tories in Scotland (there is one Tory MP).


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

I've asked my husband who has always been left wing and says it's in his genes being of Scots and Irish blood.  He says it's too complicated to explain why Scotland is more left than right.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

A good article in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...glish-just-like-it-did-the-scottish?CMP=fb_gu


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## Ralphy1 (May 7, 2015)

Just heard it said that a British election is like changing madams in a brothel, but that could apply to the U.S. Just as well...


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Just heard it said that a British election is like changing madams in a brothel, but that could apply to the U.S. Just as well...



The US has a much more straightforward voting system and is the one I understand better.  I vote in both.  

I don't think DH and I ever discussed politics before we got married.  But it was a good thing we totally agreed!


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## Ralphy1 (May 7, 2015)

Hmm, yes, unless you take politics as entertainment it certainly can cause difficulties in a relationship...


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## Bee (May 7, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hmm, yes, unless you take politics as entertainment _*it certainly can cause difficulties in a relationship*_...



Not at all Ralphy, my mother and her family were very staunch Labour people, my father who just happened to be a Scotsman was a Conservative man and there was nothing wrong with their relationship, it is all about respect for another persons feelings and opinions.


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## Ralphy1 (May 7, 2015)

Not everyone can take difference with equanimity.  You  were fortunate...


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

My dad was a democrat and my mom would never say who she voted for as she thought it was private, but we all knew she often voted republican. They got along very well and this didn't cause any issues.  My siblings were split, two republicans, two democrats, but that has changed to only one still being republican - a brother. We love him anyway.


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## Bee (May 7, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Not everyone can take difference with equanimity.  You  were fortunate...



Fortunate..............or............a very sensible family????


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Bee said:


> Fortunate..............or............a very sensible family????



Sensible family.  

My cousin is coming to visit and we have agreed not to discuss politics, religion or sex.  Not sure why he mentioned sex but I'd say it's due to some of my pro gay marriage posts on FB.


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## Ralphy1 (May 7, 2015)

I had an MIL once that would not countenance the same "big three" that you mentioned.  It led to some long, boring gatherings that also led to too much drinking...


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## Shalimar (May 7, 2015)

If one is unable to discuss the big three, how on earth to stay conscious without resorting to booze or pot?? Hmmm. Perhaps secret, illicit sex to pass the time? Lol. In my family, at one time or another, everything on the political spectrum was represented. Led to some spirited debates, but little rancor. It was viewed as the family sport.


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## Ralphy1 (May 7, 2015)

At one holiday gathering a lot of the ladies were drinking Cold Duck, a popular fizzy wine at the time.  One of my MIL's daughters had imbibed a little too much and while heading for a refill asked her mother if she would like a little cold dick.  Needless to say it cracked everybody up, even my MIL...


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## merlin (May 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> My dad was a democrat and my mom would never say who she voted for as she thought it was private, but we all knew she often voted republican. They got along very well and this didn't cause any issues.  My siblings were split, two republicans, two democrats, but that has changed to only one still being republican - a brother. We love him anyway.



My father as a businessman, was a typically staunch Tory and I never knew who my mother voted for, we never really discussed politics as a family as far as I can recall. I have voted for all sides during my life, but I feel now, although their ideologies are different, there isn't much between them in practice.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

merlin said:


> My father as a businessman, was a typically staunch Tory and I never knew who my mother voted for, we never really discussed politics as a family as far as I can recall. I have voted for all sides during my life, but I feel now, although their ideologies are different, there isn't much between them in practice.



I don't remember a lot of discussions about politics when I was a kid, but I wasn't interested then so wouldn't have paid attention.  My dad would volunteer his time for democrats during elections.  So has my brother, his son, and my son.  

I could never vote for a Republican in the US as they do not hold my values.  I could never vote Tory in the UK.  But I think you're right about the parties becoming closer in their ideologies.  Milliband has lost a lot of Labour votes by implying he'd rather see the Tories stay in power than work with the SNP. I'm a card carrying Labour member but I did not vote Labour this election.


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## merlin (May 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I don't remember a lot of discussions about politics when I was a kid, but I wasn't interested then so wouldn't have paid attention.  My dad would volunteer his time for democrats during elections.  So has my brother, his son, and my son.
> 
> I could never vote for a Republican in the US as they do not hold my values.  I could never vote Tory in the UK.  But I think you're right about the parties becoming closer in their ideologies.  Milliband has lost a lot of Labour votes by implying he'd rather see the Tories stay in power than work with the SNP. I'm a card carrying Labour member but I did not vote Labour this election.



I agree that Milliband shot himself in the foot with his SNP remarks, IMO they have all behaved badly and don't deserve any votes. I hate what the Tory party has done to this country, and it will only get worse if they get in again, in whatever form that is.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

merlin said:


> I agree that Milliband shot himself in the foot with his SNP remarks, IMO they have all behaved badly and don't deserve any votes. I hate what the Tory party has done to this country, and it will only get worse if they get in again, in whatever form that is.



Agree.  I'm guessing it will be same old same old - Tories and LibDems - helping the rich and screwing the poor.


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## QuickSilver (May 7, 2015)

I fully admit to being ignorant about the British political process...  In fact I was just saying to DH this morning after hearing a news blurb about your election.  "So how does that work?  OK.. someone wins the vote, but doesn't really win, because they first have to build a coalition, and if the loser or the incumbent builds one then they win?"   or something like that?    Not sure.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I fully admit to being ignorant about the British political process...  In fact I was just saying to DH this morning after hearing a news blurb about your election.  "So how does that work?  OK.. someone wins the vote, but doesn't really win, because they first have to build a coalition, and if the loser or the incumbent builds one then they win?"   or something like that?    Not sure.



You don't vote directly for a PM.  You vote for who is running for MP in your county/region.  The leader of the party with the most MP's wins.  A bit simplistic. Polls show no one will get a clear majority in this election, same as last election.  So in order to have a majority you have to bargain with another party which, of course, does not agree with all your views so lots of compromising.  Last election the Tory was PM, and the LibDem leader was deputy PM.  Seats on the cabinet were divided up between both parties, but of course the most important seats went to the PM's party.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Continued....

There are several nationalist parties - SNP for Scotland, one for Wales, one for Northern Ireland.  They have MP's in parliament (as well as their parliaments) but they can't have a coalition like the other parties.  However, they can agree to back a party which would get that party a majority and they would win.  

Confused?  Me too.  Better a native born Brit explains it.


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## QuickSilver (May 7, 2015)

Ok.......................clear as mud.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Ok.......................clear as mud.



Thought so.  I know how coalitions work but don't know how it works the other way.  Not ideal, but I'd like a Labour government and backed by the SNP, even though they have some huge differences.  But at least it wouldn't be the Tories.

My DH is getting fed up with trying to explain it all to me.


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## Laurie (May 7, 2015)

"it's too complicated to explain why Scotland is more left than right."

Simple really - the Scots have always been exploited!

"I fully admit to being ignorant about the British political process..."

Technically we don't vote for a party, in fact it's only recently candidates have been allowed to put their party affiliation on the ballot paper.

We only vote for our local representative, our MP.

If any one of those MPs can command enough support to defeat all those who don't support him/her  the Queen will ask him/ to please form a government.

In practice, of course, very few manage to get elected without the massive machinery of a large party organisation behind them, though some, a very few, do.  Those parties have leaders who automatically become Prime Minister if their party wins a majority of seats.

In some areas which always vote the same way, the voters have little to do with it - the MP is effectively chosen by the dozen or so members local party selection committee who decide who will stand in their area.

It used to be said that if they pinned a Labour rosette on a donkey in the Rhondda Valley it would get elected, and in Glasgow they didn't count the Labour vote , they weighed it.

I understand this is a little like your caucus system


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

I'm hoping the exit polls are wrong, but it looks like they've been quite accurate in the past.  BBC has got the Tories far ahead of Labour.  But it has the SNP winning all but one seat in Scotland.


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## hollydolly (May 7, 2015)

Well both of us went to the polling station tonight as soon as hubs got home ..as we always do..thank goodness it doesn't close until 10pm..because he doesn't get home often until almost 10pm..

Anyway..all done now..I'm gonna be avidly watching the results  as they come in from all around the country.. we both vote for the same party, locally and nationally 


...although I did have trouble making my mind up this year..it was such a difficult choice..


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

We vote by post, Holly.  Are you staying up to watch?  I'm getting really tired.  And disgusted.


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## hollydolly (May 7, 2015)

I'm staying up as long as I can, depends on how the results seem to be panning out..I'm watching it now


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## Warrigal (May 7, 2015)

We're getting reports that a Tory/Lib Dem coalition could be in a position to form government. This is based on some exit polling.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> We're getting reports that a Tory/Lib Dem coalition could be in a position to form government. This is based on some exit polling.



Praying the exit polls are wrong (except Scottish ones) but they rarely are. Everyone shocked at numbers.


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## Josiah (May 7, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> We're getting reports that a Tory/Lib Dem coalition could be in a position to form government. This is based on some exit polling.



Good grief DW, you're half a world away. Why are you interested in these Westminster goings on?


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## Shalimar (May 7, 2015)

Josiah, Oz is a member of the Commonwealth,just as Canada is.


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## hollydolly (May 7, 2015)

Exactly  Shali...Our Monarch is also the Sovereign  of Australia , Canada, New Zealand, Grenada, Jamaica, The Bahamas, Belize, Barbados, The Solomon Islands and more..


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## Josiah (May 7, 2015)

OK, I gotta be careful here. I thought in all my American ignorance that the only thing belonging to the Commonwealth got you was one royal visit every ten years.


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## hollydolly (May 7, 2015)

Well it does..LOL...apart from us in  the Uk because we get to see her a lot.. 

Outside of the Uk the Queen has a very personal relationship with Canada more than any others of her sovereignties

Have a read here...

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchAndCommonwealth/Canada/TheQueensroleinCanada.aspx


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Still up and it's 3:10am.  Gutted by Tory win but loving the SNP results!


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## Warrigal (May 7, 2015)

Speaking of Royal visits - Prince Harry has been in OZ for the last 4 weeks and had now moved on to New Zealand.

This photo was taken on his last day here. The old lady is a war widow and he spotted the V.C. medal she was wearing and stopped to talk to her. Needless to say, she was delighted and one very happy old lady.


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## Ameriscot (May 7, 2015)

Nearly 6:30am here. Time for a nap. Up all night!


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## Bee (May 7, 2015)

Can't take the pace Ameriscot??? ..........I have been up all night also and not nearly ready for sleep.


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## merlin (May 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Still up and it's 3:10am.  Gutted by Tory win but loving the SNP results!



I woke up briefly at 3:00am, and saw how it was going, have just woke to see the Tory party is heading for a majority. It seems all the sensible people live north of the border Annie, maybe I should move  

I do feel its a very sad day for the UK, as the poor and disenfranchised in our society will be pushed further down the poverty scale. The gap will widen between between rich and poor and I can see civil unrest developing when it becomes unsustainable. 
Also we now have to face two years of wrangling, ending in a Tory promised referendum on leaving the EU, what a mess. 
I need to raid your drinks cabinet Annie :very_drunk:
PS: The pound will do well of course, as the city has its favourite puppet government back for another 5 years.


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## Laurie (May 8, 2015)

Democracy in action, English style.

Shetland has a massive SNP vote, but ends up with a Conservative government, as decided by England!


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Bee said:


> Can't take the pace Ameriscot??? ..........I have been up all night also and not nearly ready for sleep.



Haha!  I went through phases, nodding off, then wide awake.  Have only had a few short naps now so I expect an afternoon nap.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Laurie said:


> Democracy in action, English style.
> 
> Shetland has a massive SNP vote, but ends up with a Conservative government, as decided by England!



Do you mean Shetland or Scotland?  Shetland was LibDem.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

merlin said:


> I woke up briefly at 3:00am, and saw how it was going, have just woke to see the Tory party is heading for a majority. It seems all the sensible people live north of the border Annie, maybe I should move
> 
> I do feel its a very sad day for the UK, as the poor and disenfranchised in our society will be pushed further down the poverty scale. The gap will widen between between rich and poor and I can see civil unrest developing when it becomes unsustainable.
> Also we now have to face two years of wrangling, ending in a Tory promised referendum on leaving the EU, what a mess.
> ...



Come on up Merlin!  Lots of English up here and we're very nice to them.  Only rule is to be very, very quiet if you are supporting England in the World Cup.  You can get deported for that. 

I foresee another independence referendum in a couple of years or so.  As for the vote on the EU, is there a chance people who vote to get out?  What a disaster that would be.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

There are still 53 countries in the Commonwealth.  Quite a few in Africa.  When we lived in Uganda - a Commonwealth country - they held the CHOGM - Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting which is every two years I think and they take turns holding it in different countries.  The Queen and lots of PM's and other heads attend.  Prince Philip was taken to a national park by helicopter so he wouldn't have to ride on roads that are more potholes than road.


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## merlin (May 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Come on up Merlin!  Lots of English up here and we're very nice to them.  Only rule is to be very, very quiet if you are supporting England in the World Cup.  You can get deported for that.
> 
> I foresee another independence referendum in a couple of years or so.  As for the vote on the EU, is there a chance people who vote to get out?  What a disaster that would be.



Yes Annie my brother-in-law has lived in Kilmartin near Lochgilphead, for the past 10 years and is very happy there, he is a loner whereas I have all my friends and family here so wouldn't find it easy to move. 

Regarding leaving the EU, I know a lot of people would like to leave, but I am certain the Tory government will persuade them otherwise, as they are very good at propaganda, look how they stage managed the Scottish independence referendum. 
I predict there will be a mock renegotiation with the EU, and Cameron will come back and say we are happy with the new terms, and persuade everyone to stay, it would be a disaster to leave as you say.


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## hollydolly (May 8, 2015)

Well the results are what I expected... I stayed up until just after 3am..


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

merlin said:


> Yes Annie my brother-in-law has lived in Kilmartin near Lochgilphead, for the past 10 years and is very happy there, he is a loner whereas I have all my friends and family here so wouldn't find it easy to move.
> 
> Regarding leaving the EU, I know a lot of people would like to leave, but I am certain the Tory government will persuade them otherwise, as they are very good at propaganda, look how they stage managed the Scottish independence referendum.
> I predict there will be a mock renegotiation with the EU, and Cameron will come back and say we are happy with the new terms, and persuade everyone to stay, it would be a disaster to leave as you say.



I love Kilmartin!  Been there many times, first time was on our honeymoon.  

Aye, the Tories are excellent at propaganda.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> Well the results are what I expected... I stayed up until just after 3am..



Most are shocked as the outcome does not agree with the pre-election polls at all.  Looks like Tories will get a majority on their own without any negotiations.  

Another referendum in Scotland in a couple of years?  Or longer?


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## Bee (May 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Haha!  I went through phases, nodding off, then wide awake.  Have only had a few short naps now so I expect an afternoon nap.



I am still going strong but will most likely have an afternoon sleep.

As fas as I am concerned it is a sad sad day for British politics.

In my area we still have the district,town and parish results to come in which will probably be about lunch time before we know the results of them.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Bee said:


> I am still going strong but will most likely have an afternoon sleep.
> 
> As fas as I am concerned it is a sad sad day for British politics.



Very.  Labour screwed themselves.


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## Josiah (May 8, 2015)

One thing that's missing in this thread is any discussion of issues. What were the major issues debated and what was the position advocated by the different parties? You can't say we don't discuss issues in American politics.


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## Ralphy1 (May 8, 2015)

Nobody cares about furriner issues...


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Josiah said:


> One thing that's missing in this thread is any discussion of issues. What were the major issues debated and what was the position advocated by the different parties? You can't say we don't discuss issues in American politics.



I'm not great at discussing details of politics and I'm sure some one will correct my errors.  

Austerity - cutting public services to get the deficit down
Raising/cutting university tuition fees
Immigration - making it more difficult
EU - voting on whether to leave it or not (only Tories and UKIP want this)
Welfare cuts
Trident nuclear weapons (they are a mile from my house and Scotland doesn't want them here or to help pay the cost of keeping them here)
Privatising the NHS - Tories, of course

I found this handy guide about the issues of each party:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/manifesto-guide

Next year Scotland's parliament will have an election and I'd imagine that another independence vote will be raised.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Nobody cares about furriner issues...



:stupid:   :miserable:     :tongue-new:


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## Warrigal (May 8, 2015)

Has there been any indication of the voter turnout as a percentage?


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## merlin (May 8, 2015)

Josiah said:


> One thing that's missing in this thread is any discussion of issues. What were the major issues debated and what was the position advocated by the different parties? You can't say we don't discuss issues in American politics.



The issues in my opinion Josiah are basically, the Tory party which seems to be similar in some ways to your Republican party, does not believe in state owned services, hence the privatisation of virtually everything from water to railways, they also want the state benefit system cut to the bone. They are slowly privatising the NHS by stealth, as most of us value the health service, so it is difficult for them to be honest about what they are doing. They also believe in austerity measures on the general population, in order to pay off the debts incurred by the mistakes the bankers made causing the 2008 crash, while the bankers continue to pay themselves as usual.

The Labour Party traditionally support the working man and the poor and sick in society, so believe all basic services should be state owned and financed, unfortunately this ethos has largely been lost in the last decade, so they are nearer to the Tory ideology. Both parties say what the population want to hear, but they are both controlled by the banks and the multi-national companies, so the rich 1% get richer while the 99% become poorer.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Has there been any indication of the voter turnout as a percentage?



Scotland had the highest turnout with 75 - 81% in many areas.  I believe for the independence referendum last year the turnout was 85%.  

I think overall for the UK was 65%.


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## merlin (May 8, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Nobody cares about furriner issues...



In a way you are right Ralphy but I believe what is happening in the UK is also happening in the US, the average person is struggling and the rich are becoming increasingly richer, both societies are lost in greed, possibly this is our ultimate downfall?


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

merlin said:


> The issues in my opinion Josiah are basically, the Tory party which seems to be similar in some ways to your Republican party, does not believe in state owned services, hence the privatisation of virtually everything from water to railways, they also want the state benefit system cut to the bone. They are slowly privatising the NHS by stealth, as most of us value the health service, so it is difficult for them to be honest about what they are doing. They also believe in austerity measures on the general population, in order to pay off the debts incurred by the mistakes the bankers made causing the 2008 crash, while the bankers continue to pay themselves as usual.
> 
> The Labour Party traditionally support the working man and the poor and sick in society, so believe all basic services should be state owned and financed, unfortunately this ethos has largely been lost in the last decade, so they are nearer to the Tory ideology. Both parties say what the population want to hear, but they are both controlled by the banks and the multi-national companies, so the rich 1% get richer while the 99% become poorer.



Well said, Merlin.  I voted SNP and liked everything Nicola Sturgeon said.  My hope though was that Labour would win outside of Scotland but the SNP would support them.  

Some big differences between Republicans and Tories is that many Republicans follow evangelical beliefs and are anti-gay, anti-choice for women, etc.  Tories do not have those beliefs and those are just not issues here.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

merlin said:


> In a way you are right Ralphy but I believe what is happening in the UK is also happening in the US, the average person is struggling and the rich are becoming increasingly richer, both societies are lost in greed, possibly this is our ultimate downfall?



The rich in both countries are disgustingly rich and the poor are getting poorer.  There is a huge divide in both countries and it is getting bigger.


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## Knightofalbion (May 8, 2015)

That's fox-hunting, stag-hunting, hare coursing coming back and an extended badger cull ...


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## Knightofalbion (May 8, 2015)

And 12 billion pounds in welfare cuts....


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## Knightofalbion (May 8, 2015)

As you've probably guessed, they didn't get my vote. 

I find them devoid of compassion and subservient to profit and wealth above all else. 

Another five years? A grim day.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Totally agree, Knight!


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## Laurie (May 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Do you mean Shetland or Scotland?  Shetland was LibDem.



Bugger!  Thank you!

My pithy point ruined by a spelling mistake.

I meant Scotland , of course!


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## Laurie (May 8, 2015)

"Another referendum in Scotland in a couple of years? Or longer?"

Depends how much  of the Smith recommendations are enacted, and, to a much greater extent I think, the results of the promised EU referendum.

If England votes to leave, taking Scotland with it, that would trigger a massive campaign for another Independence referendum as Scotland is, generally, in favour of the EU.


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## Josiah (May 8, 2015)

I don't understand how the Tories did so well. Merlin described the Tories as somewhat analogous to the US Republicans except that the social issues that fire up the Republican base are not a big issue in the UK. Here is the US if the Republicans didn't have the social conservatives they certainly couldn't win a national election and probably not many state elections. It's taken a long while but Americans have pretty much figured out that trickle down, tax cutting and austerity hasn't worked. From what I can gather, European austerity policies are the reason that Europe has not seen the recovery that we have enjoyed in the States.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I don't understand how the Tories did so well. Merlin described the Tories as somewhat analogous to the US Republicans except that the social issues that fire up the Republican base are not a big issue in the UK. Here is the US if the Republicans didn't have the social conservatives they certainly couldn't win a national election and probably not many state elections. It's taken a long while but Americans have pretty much figured out that trickle down, tax cutting and austerity hasn't worked. From what I can gather, European austerity policies are the reason that Europe has not seen the recovery that we have enjoyed in the States.



I've heard that the Tories did well because the English were terrified of a Labour/SNP 'coalition'.  They hate the idea of the Scots telling them what to do.  They already resent Scotland as they think Scotland gets too big a share of the national budget in comparison to the population. Scotland has 10% the population of England.


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## Josiah (May 8, 2015)

This column written by Nobel Economist Paul Krugman discusses the sad state of economic thinking in the UK.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/08/opinion/paul-krugman-triumph-of-the-unthinking.html?ref=opinion


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "Another referendum in Scotland in a couple of years? Or longer?"
> 
> Depends how much  of the Smith recommendations are enacted, and, to a much greater extent I think, the results of the promised EU referendum.
> 
> *If England votes to leave, taking Scotland with it, that would trigger a massive campaign for another Independence referendum as Scotland is, generally, in favour of the EU.*



Exactly!  Even my stepdaughter who was dead set against independence and voted no has now voted SNP and will vote yes for independence next time. 

I don't understand wanting to leave the EU.  As far as I can tell the positive outweighs the negative.


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## Ameriscot (May 8, 2015)

Josiah, American friends and family told me there was very little coverage of this election.  True?


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## merlin (May 8, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I don't understand how the Tories did so well. Merlin described the Tories as somewhat analogous to the US Republicans except that the social issues that fire up the Republican base are not a big issue in the UK. Here is the US if the Republicans didn't have the social conservatives they certainly couldn't win a national election and probably not many state elections. It's taken a long while but Americans have pretty much figured out that trickle down, tax cutting and austerity hasn't worked. From what I can gather, European austerity policies are the reason that Europe has not seen the recovery that we have enjoyed in the States.



Several reasons Josiah, mainly the fact that Scotland previously a Labour stronghold switched to the SNP, the Labour leader Miliband having no charisma and their whole campaign being mis-managed. The Tory party had a much more persuasive campaign, based on fear of the SNP controlling a coalition with Labour, which won the day, though in the end they only have a slim majority.



> The outcome of the 2015 election looks like a dramatic win for the Tories. Polls had shown Cameron’s party neck-and-neck with Ed Miliband’s Labour Party throughout the campaign, and everybody seemed sure the result would be a hung parliament. Instead, the cock-a-hoop Conservatives have ended up with a slight overall majority, boasting that they are the first incumbent party to increase its number of seats since Margaret Thatcher’s Tory government did so in 1983.Yet what does the Tory victory amount to? The party has increased its share of the vote since 2010 by just over half of one per cent – from an unspectacular 36.05 per cent to 36.7 per cent. Some polls had the Tories on that sort of mark during the campaign, while the ‘poll of polls’ tended to have them hovering around an average of 34 per cent. That extra couple of points hardly looks like any dramatic ‘late breakthrough’.
> 
> It might be useful to step back from the intense focus on the immediate results and put things in a bit of historical perspective. Last time the Tories won a parliamentary majority, way back in 1992, John Major got 41.93 per cent of the vote. Go back further to when UK politics was a two-party system and the contrast is even starker. When the Tories lost to a Labour landslide in the famous postwar election of 1945, Winston Churchill’s Conservatives still won 40.26 per cent of the votes cast. Five years later, when Labour won a tiny majority, the losing Tories received 43.44 per cent of the vote – the sort of support that the ‘triumphant’ Cameron, aka Mr 36.7 per cent, can only dream of.


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## merlin (May 8, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I don't understand wanting to leave the EU.  As far as I can tell the positive outweighs the negative.



I think the average Brit sees the EU as taking over our sovereignty and being responsible for mass immigration. 

http://is.gd/hNVNTo


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## Laurie (May 9, 2015)

"I don't understand how the Tories did so well."

The reasons the Tories did so well was leadership.  Not their's  which was pretty dire, but the Labour party's, which was abysmal.

Cameron didn't win the election, Milliband lost it.


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## hollydolly (May 9, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "I don't understand how the Tories did so well."
> 
> The reasons the Tories did so well was leadership.  Not their's  which was pretty dire, but the Labour party's, which was abysmal.
> 
> Cameron didn't win the election, Milliband lost it.



That's it in a complete nutshell Laurie..


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## Ameriscot (May 9, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "I don't understand how the Tories did so well."
> 
> The reasons the Tories did so well was leadership.  Not their's  which was pretty dire, but the Labour party's, which was abysmal.
> 
> Cameron didn't win the election, Milliband lost it.



I agree as well.  I've been very disappointed in Labour lately.  As a member of the Labour party I voted for Miliband as leader back in 2010.  I am also angry at how the former leader of the Labour Party in Scotland - Joann Lamont - was treated by Labour in Westminster and had to quit.


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## Capt Lightning (May 9, 2015)

"I think the average Brit sees the EU as taking over our sovereignty and being responsible for mass immigration. "

Exactly Merlin.  It seems ironic that this weekend we're celebrating VE day, while the EU is trying to dominate us and rob us of our independance.
As for Scottish independance, there are two questions here......
Do I want independance?...  possibly 'Yes'
Do I want the type of country that the SNP are proposing? - definitely 'NO'!


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## oakapple (May 9, 2015)

I never get involved in political discussions online Josiah, but of course there is far more to it than you will read on here.The Conservatives( Tories) have got in with a majority, which means they no longer have to be in coalition with the LIberal Democrats.No one party has a monopoly on compassion, all have social care programmes.The Scottish Nationalist Party has taken most of the seats in Scotland, about 55 whereas the Tories have about 331 seats in Westminster.The Tories have done even better than at the last election.Labour did not get enough seats to even form a coalition with the SNP, even if it had been ready to do so.


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## Bee (May 9, 2015)

I wouldn't have been surprised to see protests in a few months time but blimey not this quick....

_Anti-austerity campaigners launched impromptu protests across Britain, less than 48 hours after David Cameron was returned to power with a parliamentary majority._
_Hundreds of people joined demonstrations in Wales and central London following the surprise Conservative election victory. About 200 people were involved in clashes with police outside Downing Street, throwing green smoke bombs and tomato ketchup at officers in riot gear._
_Five people were arrested and the Metropolitan police said that four officers and a member of police staff had been injured during the protests._

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ake-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory


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## Josiah (May 9, 2015)

It seems to me that the science of political poll taking in the UK is pretty abysmal. In contrast pollsters in the US have done pretty well. The polls that led Mitt Romney to think he was going to win in 2012 were all commissioned by the Republicans. I'll be interested in learning why the UK polls failed to pickup on Labour's upcoming defeat.


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## merlin (May 10, 2015)

This may help Josiah http://is.gd/TsZYhF http://is.gd/h13nM9 I would have preferred the poll result, to the one we got


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## merlin (May 10, 2015)

Bee said:


> I wouldn't have been surprised to see protests in a few months time but blimey not this quick....
> 
> _Anti-austerity campaigners launched impromptu protests across Britain, less than 48 hours after David Cameron was returned to power with a parliamentary majority._
> _Hundreds of people joined demonstrations in Wales and central London following the surprise Conservative election victory. About 200 people were involved in clashes with police outside Downing Street, throwing green smoke bombs and tomato ketchup at officers in riot gear._
> ...



I think we have a lot more of this to come Billy from some of the 63% who didn't vote Tory http://is.gd/MJXFxZ  At least Boris has been stopped from using his water cannon http://is.gd/KvDXhc


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## Bee (May 10, 2015)

I have nothing against protests providing they are carried out in a peaceful, dignified manner but when there is damage and injuries caused by protesting then I think the protesters have lost their cause.

I also believe that there will be more protests to come.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

Bee said:


> I have nothing against protests providing they are carried out in a peaceful, dignified manner but when there is damage and injuries caused by protesting then I think the protesters have lost their cause.
> 
> I also believe that there will be more protests to come.



Agree.  I'm opposed to violent protests and there will be more protests to come.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I never get involved in political discussions online Josiah, but of course there is far more to it than you will read on here.The Conservatives( Tories) have got in with a majority, which means they no longer have to be in coalition with the LIberal Democrats.No one party has a monopoly on compassion, all have social care programmes.The Scottish Nationalist Party has taken most of the seats in Scotland, about 55 whereas the Tories have about 331 seats in Westminster.The Tories have done even better than at the last election.Labour did not get enough seats to even form a coalition with the SNP, even if it had been ready to do so.



The SNP is the Scottish National Party, not nationalist.  They got 56 seats.  It sounds like it will be several years before another independence vote according to Nicola on Andrew Marr this morning.


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## Josiah (May 10, 2015)

OK, suppose in a couple of years Scotland votes for independence a leaves the UK and at the same time England votes to cut it's ties to the EU, would newly independent Scotland seek to join the EU and adopt its currency?


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## merlin (May 10, 2015)

.
The Tories are already starting their plans to further control the population http://is.gd/IeDqUu  but they may possibly become unstuck http://is.gd/6Hpjz4


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## merlin (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> OK, suppose in a couple of years Scotland votes for independence a leaves the UK and at the same time England votes to cut it's ties to the EU, would newly independent Scotland seek to join the EU and adopt its currency?



I am sure they would Josiah,  http://is.gd/9br47c  though with Cameron's massive propaganda machine, leaving the UK will prove very difficult I fear, going by what happened at the recent referendum.


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## Warrigal (May 10, 2015)

Scotland is skiting


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## Josiah (May 10, 2015)

Tell me DW skite used as a verb is not used in the US and I see where it has multiple meaning elsewhere. One meaning is boasting and another is sliding (uncontrollably??) Which do you mean?


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> OK, suppose in a couple of years Scotland votes for independence a leaves the UK and at the same time England votes to cut it's ties to the EU, would newly independent Scotland seek to join the EU and adopt its currency?



A big argument before the referendum was whether Scotland would automatically be an EU member since it is part of the EU by being in the UK.  People who were against independence argued that Scotland would have to wait and be voted in by EU member states.  

The former leader of the SNP wanted us to keep using the British pound, but London said no we couldn't.  If we actually weren't still in the EU we couldn't use the Euro.  So if both of those happened we'd have to use our own currency.  We do have Scottish notes now but no coins.  But what would it's value be?  

There will be another referendum but when is the big question.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Scotland is skiting



Love the sign!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Josiah (May 10, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> A big argument before the referendum was whether Scotland would automatically be an EU member since it is part of the EU by being in the UK.  People who were against independence argued that Scotland would have to wait and be voted in by EU member states.
> 
> The former leader of the SNP wanted us to keep using the British pound, but London said no we couldn't.  If we actually weren't still in the EU we couldn't use the Euro.  So if both of those happened we'd have to use our own currency.  We do have Scottish notes now but no coins.  But what would it's value be?
> 
> There will be another referendum but when is the big question.



Beside advocating for independence, what is it about the SNP which upsets people so much? I may be wrong but it seems to me you voiced some reservations even though you support independence.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Beside advocating for independence, what is it about the SNP which upsets people so much? I may be wrong but it seems to me you voiced some reservations even though you support independence.



The SNP is not talking about independence right now.  I was dead set against voting yes at first, but then decided to vote yes.  Yes, it would be a difficult and messy divorce but I think it would be worth it.  For one thing, we would have a government that was only concerned with Scotland.  We'd no longer be seen as a 'northern county' of the UK.  Scotland could set its own immigration policies, etc. 

I think people changed over to the Tories in the election because they feared a Scottish party having influence on the government of the UK.


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## Capt Lightning (May 10, 2015)

A lot of the SNP's plans for Scotland was based on oil revenue which has since tumbled.  
Immigration is a big issue in the UK, but I have seen it suggested that Scotland would need to attract young immigrants to offset the effects of an aging indigenous population.  There is the fear that Scotland would be used as a way into England which is seen as a soft touch for economic migrants.   

Then there's the SNP's opposition to Britains nuclear deterrent..... there are a lot of reasons why the rest of the UK, and a lot of Scots want to keep the union intact.


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## Josiah (May 10, 2015)

Sorry to keep bugging you about Scotland, but each of your answers seems to prompt more questions. Capt mentioned the unreliably of North Sea oil as a long term source of prosperity and as someone who's anxious to see fossil fuels replaced I can well understand that. So how diverse is Scotland's economy once you stop pumping oil? It seems to me that the answer to that is pretty relevant to talk of independence.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-facts-about-scotlands-oil-and-independence/

[h=3]*Fact 9) Oil is only one aspect of Scotland’s diverse energy market and economic strength.*[/h]Oil is important to Scotland. However, it sits within a great wealth of many natural resources available to Scotland. In terms of energy alone, Scotland is developing an international pedigree in tidal, wave and wind energy. Scotland’s economy is also based on a much wider range of sectors – including retail, construction, tourism, manufacturing, electronics, textiles, banking, asset management, higher education, the creative sector, fishing, whisky and the thriving food and drink sector. In terms of tax take, Scotland’s returns from oil revenue are a far lower percentage than the receipts in Norway. Scotland’s economy is not dependent on oil revenues – they are a wealthy addition to Scotland’s overall prosperity.

People voted No for many reasons.  Our age group voted NO because they believed the scares about their pensions not being safe.  I believe our pensions are safe.  I think many also voted No because they did not like the SNP leader who was then Alex Salmond.  I didn't like him either, but he could always be replaced, and was.


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## Laurie (May 10, 2015)

"would newly independent Scotland seek to join the EU "

The SNP is fully committed to Europe and it is a major point of their manifesto.

They will be very upset if England votes to leave and takes Scotland with it.

As has been mentioned, Scotland is also diametrically opposed to Westminster on immigration and Trident.


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## oakapple (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> OK, suppose in a couple of years Scotland votes for independence a leaves the UK and at the same time England votes to cut it's ties to the EU, would newly independent Scotland seek to join the EU and adopt its currency?


The SNP cannot just choose to hold another referendum Josiah, it has to be backed by Parliament.They need permission, in other words.However, depending on circumstances, permission to hold another one could be granted.


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## oakapple (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Beside advocating for independence, what is it about the SNP which upsets people so much? I may be wrong but it seems to me you voiced some reservations even though you support independence.


The referendum result in Scotland was very close, which meant at that time  slightly more people there wanted to stay part of the UK.We have had a union for a long time, and more money is poured into Scotland per person than In England for example, so many Scots were worried about leaving from that point of view as well.Labour voters in England may well be upset that the SNP has wiped out Labour seats and support there.The SNP is a very left wing version of Labour Josiah.


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## oakapple (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Sorry to keep bugging you about Scotland, but each of your answers seems to prompt more questions. Capt mentioned the unreliably of North Sea oil as a long term source of prosperity and as someone who's anxious to see fossil fuels replaced I can well understand that. So how diverse is Scotland's economy once you stop pumping oil? It seems to me that the answer to that is pretty relevant to talk of independence.


You are right to flag this point up, as it will be extremely relevant.I'm not sure about the diverse ness of Scotland's economy
we may need an expert for that, but it may well hit them hard to go it alone. however, if the majority of Scots would like to secede from the Union, and a referendum is held again in a year or so, then surely the chance to be an autonomous country
even though it may be a financial struggle, at least for a while, would be worth it to them?I can't answer that, as I am English.


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## Josiah (May 10, 2015)

A big thank you to all you UKers who've so patiently answered all my questions.

BTW some of my ancestors immigrated from the town of Acle in Norfolk in 1637.


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## Ameriscot (May 10, 2015)

There are about half a million English living in Scotland and most voted No. Our best friends are English and they voted No. They weren't happy we voted Yes.


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## Warrigal (May 10, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Tell me DW skite used as a verb is not used in the US and I see where it has multiple meaning elsewhere. One meaning is boasting and another is sliding (uncontrollably??) Which do you mean?


Boasting. Never knew it could mean sliding.


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## Laurie (May 11, 2015)

"So how diverse is Scotland's economy once you stop pumping oil?"

Scotland exports 40 bottles of whisky *every second*!

Scottish salmon is the UK's number one food export.

If Malta can exist on its own I reckon Scotland can.


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## Laurie (May 11, 2015)

"There are about half a million English living in Scotland and most voted No." t

here is anecdotal evidence that incomers, like me (I voted Yes) swung the No vote, as did last minute intervention by ex-Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

Most political pundits believe that if the referendum had included England (and Wales and Ulster) there would have been a fairly substantial Yes vote.


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## Ameriscot (May 11, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "There are about half a million English living in Scotland and most voted No." t
> 
> here is anecdotal evidence that incomers, like me (I voted Yes) swung the No vote, as did last minute intervention by ex-Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
> 
> Most political pundits believe that if the referendum had included England (and Wales and Ulster) there would have been a fairly substantial Yes vote.



I voted YES.  And will do so again.


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## oakapple (May 11, 2015)

Josiah said:


> A big thank you to all you UKers who've so patiently answered all my questions.
> 
> BTW some of my ancestors immigrated from the town of Acle in Norfolk in 1637.


you should take a trip there in the future, when you are able to Josiah. Norfolk is very interesting, with The Broads( waterways) it's one of the quietist and rural bits of England.Many fine old towns and villages to wander around in.


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## Capt Lightning (May 11, 2015)

I voted 'NO' in the referendum.  Not because I am opposed to an independent Scotland,  but because I am opposed to the type of very socialist Scotland that the SNP advocates.  In a few years the SNP might fall form favour and a more centre / right party take over.  They may propose the type of independent Scotland that I would he happy to live in.
We will just have to wait and see.


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## Ameriscot (May 11, 2015)

oakapple said:


> you should take a trip there in the future, when you are able to Josiah. Norfolk is very interesting, with The Broads( waterways) it's one of the quietist and rural bits of England.Many fine old towns and villages to wander around in.



I only recently discovered I have ancestors from Norfolk - Stoke Ferry.


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## oakapple (May 12, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I only recently discovered I have ancestors from Norfolk - Stoke Ferry.


Ah, well, it will be a lot nearer for you than for Josiah to go to Norfolk, or have you already been?


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## Ameriscot (May 12, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Ah, well, it will be a lot nearer for you than for Josiah to go to Norfolk, or have you already been?



No, never been to any part of Norfolk.  Only found out in the past month about an ancestor leaving there in the mid 1800's, a widow and her kids. My brother has become interested in a branch of the family I've never researched (maternal grandfather).

I'll probably make a trip if I know where an ancestor's grave is.


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## Laurie (May 12, 2015)

"I only recently discovered I have ancestors from Norfolk "

Generally known as "Wurzels"!


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## oakapple (May 12, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "I only recently discovered I have ancestors from Norfolk "
> 
> Generally known as "Wurzels"!


Short for manglewurzels! cattle fodder. rude name akin to sodbusters  in the US, or clodhoppers here.


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## Ameriscot (May 12, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "I only recently discovered I have ancestors from Norfolk "
> 
> Generally known as "Wurzels"!



Never heard that!


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## Laurie (May 13, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Never heard that!



To be honest it's one of those derogatory names used within the British Armed Forces to refer to any group they perceive as less fortunate than themselves, like trogs for the Welsh, Haggis Bashers or Bogtrotters, self explanatory,  Cloggies for the Dutch, several racist terms no longer usable for South Americans, Italians and the Spanish.

I understand the term "Okie" can be used in a similar derogatory sense.

It's a facet of the built in English inferiority complex, they know they're inferior so they try to put everybody else down!

(Ducks back below parapet!)


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## oakapple (May 13, 2015)

Ah, more Scottish racism eh?


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## oakapple (May 13, 2015)

We can cope with it!


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## oakapple (May 13, 2015)

Because we are....... Superior!


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## Warrigal (May 13, 2015)

Worzel Gummidge is awesome.

A favourite in this house when the children were small.


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## Bee (May 13, 2015)

The Wurzels are from the West Country as you can tell by their accents............


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## Laurie (May 13, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Ah, more Scottish racism eh?



Not from me!

I'm not Scottish.


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## Josiah (May 13, 2015)

Thanks Bee, and agricultually based marriage in the West 
























Thanks a lot Bee. An agriculturally based marriage in the West Country sounds like it might work. Actually I didn't find the accent all that provincial.


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## Ameriscot (May 13, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Because we are....... Superior!



:thumbsup1:


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