# Here we go again - another theatre shooting



## Warrigal (Jul 23, 2015)

This time in Lafayette, Louisiana. Three dead and nine injured but that doesn't count as a massacre.

The shooter, an older white male, turned the gun on himself.
What on earth makes people behave like this?

http://thehayride.com/2015/07/breaking-movie-theater-shooting-in-lafayette-leaves-two-dead/


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## Shalimar (Jul 23, 2015)

DW, I think it maybe a last gasp for notoriety, going out with a bang so to speak. Some  volatile men use anger as a substitute/cover for less comfortable emotions. Sometimes they seek help from people like me before their anger turns to rage/violence. In extreme cases they snap, causing injury or death to themselves and others. That doesn't cover untreated, severe mental illness, of course.  A culture where violence is commonplace only fuels the problem?


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## Warrigal (Jul 23, 2015)

Wouldn't it be nice if people could content themselves with just being ordinary. 
Surely we should get over wanting to be special, celebrities etc by about age 35?

Perhaps we don't celebrate ordinary, solid, good hearted people enough.


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## Shalimar (Jul 23, 2015)

DW, I concur.


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## imp (Jul 23, 2015)

I for one, would rather see a maniac attempt to maim and injure folks using some other form of tool. Of course, that sort of thing DOES happen, but if it makes the news at all, it is buried somewhere, rather than "Flash", "gun involved crime committed". If only reasonably accurate data were available. Certainly the proportion of population possessing tools capable of maiming or killing is far higher than that possessing firearms, evidently we are led to believe a greater proportion of "gun owners" are more barbarically-inclined than the other, in the majority. Simply does not fit the equations.    imp


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## Warrigal (Jul 23, 2015)

imp, I can't make sense of your post at all. 

If you are saying that some people kill other people using weapons such as knives I think we all know that. 

Any incident where someone goes into a darkened theatre and starts randomly shooting live ammunition at the patrons, causing a panicked rush for the exits is going to get media attention, especially when the death and casualty toll starts to mount up. 

I reckon it would still be news if he ran amok with an axe but that seldom happens which could be why you don't read about it in the papers. We certainly always know when someone decapitates even one victim with a sword or dagger.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 24, 2015)

This is shocking because of the age of the shooter.  It will be interesting to find out his background, long-term mental illness comes to mind...


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## mitchezz (Jul 24, 2015)

and his access to a firearm.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

Bits and pieces I have read include the shooter was 58 years old, had a criminal record and used a hand gun.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 24, 2015)

We will soon be inundated with more information than we might care for...


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## SifuPhil (Jul 24, 2015)

As always it will be a while before all the facts are ascertained. Meanwhile it seems the politicians already have their mud-slinging campaign in high gear ...


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## Davey Jones (Jul 24, 2015)

Still waiting for a comment from the NRA  that encourages people to own handguns.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

He was a member of the "Tea Party".


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

Apparently this shooter was a drifter, had a previous criminal record for arson and selling alcohol to a minor. Also found wigs and disguises in his motel room.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35640145&nid=157&fm=most_popular&s_cid=article-popular-4

This theater shooting gets massive national coverage and over the last month Baltimore had 7 murders in one night and several dozen were killed or wounded in one Chicago weekend get a mention. That's where the why or what motivates them questions need to be asked as much as this.


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## Misty (Jul 24, 2015)

I may be mistaken, but it seems like groups of people are being killed in gunfree zones and the killers feel safer. As soon as police arrive on the scene, the shooter either stops, or kills himself.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

Yes....  A dark theater... someone shooting randomly... no one really knows what is going on or where the shots are coming from.. people are running and screaming....   NOW add a few dozen armed yahoos all shooting at where they think the shots are coming from.. WHAT could go wrong???????


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

*Golden Dawn*



AZ Jim said:


> He was a member of the "Tea Party".



The only recent politics with this shooter was his postings on a Golden Dawn forum which is a Greek neo Nazi political party, US Message Board and Fellowship Of The Minds. He was pro Hitler and had apocalyptic ramblings. He also had PRO Muslim rants. He was registered to a Tea Party Nation WEBSITE in 2013 but his user profile showed NO activity.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...user-history-mental-illness-article-1.2303207

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/24/l...igned-up-on-tea-party-page-and-quoted-hitler/


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## ~Lenore (Jul 24, 2015)

*Yes, Misty, gunfree zones are the safest for crazed killers to preform these killings. 
  We TEA PARTY folks always pick gun free zones to do our killings.





Axe and knife killers are smart enough not to try that in large groups of public places.  Those usually happen  in very private locations.*


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)




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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

Axes and knives require close personal contact.  A gun can kill  you and dozens of others from 100's of feet.  Knives and axes are not automatic.  Gun is always the weapon of choice for fanatics  and lunatics.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Axes and knives require close personal contact.  A gun can kill  you and dozens of others from 100's of feet.  Knives and axes are not automatic.  Gun is always the weapon of choice for fanatics  and lunatics.



For some a car can come in handy for inflicting mass casualties.

http://on.aol.com/video/driver-runs-over-four-women-after-heated-argument-518936826


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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> For some a car can come in handy for inflicting mass casualties.
> 
> http://on.aol.com/video/driver-runs-over-four-women-after-heated-argument-518936826



So do bombs, flammable liquid, clubs, spears, bricks but what is the incident rate compared to guns???


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> For some a car can come in handy for inflicting mass casualties.
> 
> http://on.aol.com/video/driver-runs-over-four-women-after-heated-argument-518936826




Absolutely!!!  Which is why we require licensing with a demonstration of skill in driving before someone is allowed to get behind the wheel..  We require registration of a car to it's specific operator..  We require INSURANCE to protect people that are injured by that car AND  that driver.. it's called "Liability" insurance..   We know who is allowed to drive and what car they own...  SOOO..   I contend.. we do the very same for guns.


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## Falcon (Jul 24, 2015)

My murder choice of weapon?  An icicle.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Absolutely!!!  Which is why we require licensing with a demonstration of skill in driving before someone is allowed to get behind the wheel..  We require registration of a car to it's specific operator..  We require INSURANCE to protect people that are injured by that car AND  that driver.. it's called "Liability" insurance..   We know who is allowed to drive and what car they own...  SOOO..   I contend.. we do the very same for guns.



A lot of good all those licensing requirements did to stop that women from criminally/purposely plowing her "legal" car into those four women. Or stop all of the drunk drivers/driving; you frequently see stories of people with suspended licenses getting in a car and causing havoc. A criminal or someone acting criminally will find a way to do their deeds wether things or legal or not, licensed or not. This particular shooter was already denied a gun permit.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> A lot of good all those licensing requirements did to stop that women from criminally/purposely plowing her "legal" car into those four women. Or stop all of the drunk drivers/driving; you frequently see stories of people with suspended licenses getting in a car and causing havoc. A criminal or someone acting criminally will find a way to do their deeds wether things or legal or not, licensed or not. This particular shooter was already denied a gun permit.



Nice red herring you are trying to drag across the page but remember we are talking easy access to automatic weapons here not drunk drivers or any other of the many things trying to hurt or kill us.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

So??   then it couldn't hurt to license and regulate guns...  just like we do cars..  Why not?


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## Meanderer (Jul 24, 2015)

Falcon said:


> My murder choice of weapon?  An icicle.


That's cold!


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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

Years ago I saw a hitchcock film about a woman in Europe who killed her husband.  The constable investigating couldn't find the murder weapon (blunt force trauma).  She fixed a leg of lamb roast she took from the freezer and offered the constable a invite to supper.  Together, unbeknownst to the constable, they ate the murder weapon.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> So do bombs, flammable liquid, clubs, spears, bricks but what is the incident rate compared to guns???



I would think the bomb rates win ... and you don't need as many incidents. Just look at WWII.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

Horrible to say....   I really feel bad for the dead... the injured and their families..   However, like most.. I see not sense to it... nor do I see any remedy.. If Sandyhook didn't do anything in the way of sensible gun legislation..  Nothing will change.. this will happen over and over and over and over..   We will grieve these victims..  until the next set ..


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## BobF (Jul 24, 2015)

It is all good to have folks register for gun ownership.   But if this guy did not have a gun registered to him then how did he get one to use.    That story has not been told yet.   So nothing wrong with the registration.  How did he get a .40 caliber pistol.   From his family, from some street seller, just how.  He apparently has had a long life of problems and mental situations.   It was not the guns fault.   It was the mental patient that had the problem.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 24, 2015)

It wasn't the guns fault Bob, but what if no handguns existed,no automatic rifles, only actual hunting equipment?  Could it still happen, of course but at what rate?


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> This particular shooter was already denied a gun permit.



Are you sure about that?



> Houser — an Alabama native who was estranged from his family and living in a Lafayette motel at the time of the attack — had legally purchased the Hi-Point 40 caliber semi-automatic handgun used in the attack on Valentine's Day of this year, authorities said.
> The sale, made at a Phoenix, Ala. pawn shop, was to a man whose relatives described as having a “volatile mental state” and "a history of mental health issues, i.e., manic depression and/or bi-polar disorder," in 2008 court paperwork.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...user-history-mental-illness-article-1.2303207


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## mitchezz (Jul 24, 2015)

Every country has nutters but in the USA they're armed.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm really tired of the debate...  Let EVERY nut have a gun if they want one...  More and more killings...   It's a given..  So let's just all accept it..  thousands of innocent people will have to die because of the 2nd amendment.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Are you sure about that?



Gun permit equals right to carry

http://wwlp.com/2015/07/24/louisiana-shooter-denied-pistol-permit-in-2006-had-several-legal-run-ins/

He had a criminal record and forced physciatric incarceration although some states a criminal record can be expunged. Not sure about that purchase yet because the much of the same criteria for right to carry is used on a purchase. Don't know wether it's hole in the law or something was missed.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

But QuickSilver, think what would have happened without this amendment. America would have been invaded by foreign powers, like all of the countries that don't have this constitutional right - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, ...


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## QuickSilver (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm so sick of it all DW....  Let the killings continue...  I'm tired of arguing about it..  Let EVERYONE and ANYONE have a gun.. and we can just keep score of the deaths..    We do have a population problem.   This may help.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Gun permit equals right to carry
> 
> http://wwlp.com/2015/07/24/louisiana-shooter-denied-pistol-permit-in-2006-had-several-legal-run-ins/
> 
> He had a criminal record and forced physciatric incarceration although some states a criminal record can be expunged. Not sure about that purchase yet because the much of the same criteria for right to carry is used on a purchase. Don't know wether it's hole in the law or something was missed.



IMO the problem is that what is illegal in one state is legal in a nearby state, which makes all of your gun laws impotent. There needs to be a set of national regulations and a federal authority dealing with the problem.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm so sick of it all DW....  Let the killings continue...  I'm tired of arguing about it..  Let EVERYONE and ANYONE have a gun.. and we can just keep score of the deaths..    We do have a population problem.   This may help.



I hear your pain. 

However, perhaps the next president will be able to break through. It might take a Republican president to do it, just as it took John Howard, a conservative politician, to do it over here. Just as only Nixon could go to China, perhaps only a right wing president will be able to convince people that gun regulation will not be the end of everyone's civil rights.


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## BobF (Jul 24, 2015)

Warrigal, if you really think the US should change it's Constitution, then move here and do your best.   The Constitution will take several years to force to a change, so plan on staying for a long time.   Those countries you named are just  being lucky.   

Canada does have guns in their territories.   One job I was interviewing for said I needed to carry a rifle for food and defense as my assignment was way up north somewhere.   I was to fly in and out in an airplane and take in parts and supplies and take out what ever.   I did not do that job.   It was for the oil pipelines and exploration.   I think Canada still has weapons allowed.   Maybe not in the populated areas but Canada has lots of sparcely populated or unpopulated areas where weapons can be needed and helpful.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

No Bob, it's your problem and for you, the American people to solve, but first you have to admit that there is a problem.

Canada has a lot of guns and so does Australia. We also have criminals. What we don't have is a sense of entitlement that says we can have as many guns as we fancy of what ever kind we can buy because over 200 years ago it was thought that every man might have to leave his fields at a moment's notice to repel the British.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 24, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> IMO the problem is that what is illegal in one state is legal in a nearby state, which makes all of your gun laws impotent. There needs to be a set of national regulations and a federal authority dealing with the problem.



Both the purchase and denial of the carry permit were in Alabama. I thought forced/court ordered psychiatric incarcerations or treatment were grounds for a denial of purchase or carry. His criminal record seems to be one of arrests rather than convictions. He was arrested as late as 2011. It's sounds like he made deals to avoid an official criminal record, arrests are not convictions.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

When your family members are afraid enough to hide your guns there should be some mechanism for removing them, at least temporarily until checks are made as to your fitness to have them.


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## BobF (Jul 24, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> No Bob, it's your problem and for you, the American people to solve, but first you have to admit that there is a problem.
> 
> Canada has a lot of guns and so does Australia. We also have criminals. What we don't have is a sense of entitlement that says we can have as many guns as we fancy of what ever kind we can buy because over 200 years ago it was thought that every man might have to leave his fields at a moment's notice to repel the British.



Absolutely right Warrigal.   It is our job and a majority of both parties say leave us alone.   It is our job to do.   Enough of out of town whiners around here.   Yes, the US started with guns and told the British crown where to go and how fast.   Canada and Australia are only recently on your own, and even now there is still a link to he Crown.    Pretty sad as you really need to be on your own to prove you can stand on your own two feet.   

Just an outsider telling you how to live as you love to tell the US how to live.   Enjoy your new freedom.   It is fun and it has its own responsibilities.   Our Constitution is now about 240 years old and has withstood the test of time quite well.   Things do get changed and quite slowly as quick changes can bring in some really spontaneous and bad ideas.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 24, 2015)

Misty said:


> I may be mistaken, but it seems like groups of people are being killed in gunfree zones and the killers feel safer. As soon as police arrive on the scene, the shooter either stops, or kills himself.



You're not mistaken at all Misty, many of these mass shootings do occur in gun-free zones, movie theaters, military stations (hope that changes), schools, etc.

  Besides ignoring the fact that these shootings all occur in gun-free zones, also ignored is the fact that most if not all of these people are mentally ill, many of them under the influence of prescription drugs for depression, anxiety, bi-polar, etc. I've posted an old listing here of the murderers and the prescription drugs they were taking numerous times.  Many have other things in common, anti-government, racists, etc.

  The side effects of these harmful pharmaceuticals are altered personalities which normally exhibit the desire to kill or commit suicide.

  Funny that not too many people are talking about the tragedy of five family members killed by knife stabbings in Oklahoma...not as big a headline if it doesn't involve a gun and promote an anti-gun agenda...so sad really.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-16-18-arrested-FIVE-family-members-dead.html


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

Posted without comment.



> *Armed 'citizen guards' at US military offices told to stand down, Pentagon says it can handle security after Tennessee shooting*
> 
> Sat 25 Jul 2015
> 
> ...


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## mitchezz (Jul 24, 2015)

I'd much rather have the right to visit a cinema without being gunned down than the right to carry a gun.


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

Mitchezz, I think that's called the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Now where have I heard that before?


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## mitchezz (Jul 24, 2015)

Now you're being cheeky DW!


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## Warrigal (Jul 24, 2015)

:yes:


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## Susie (Jul 25, 2015)

Another terrific debate, D.W.!
But why this constant insistence about guns in the U.S.?
Don't we have plenty to worry about here in Australia?
:why:


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## Warrigal (Jul 25, 2015)

Of course we do Susie and I debate most Australian issues on an Australian forum because there is only so much Australiana that is interesting to people from other countries. 

I suppose I keep returning to the topic of firearms control because I really cannot understand why Americans haven't said enough bloodshed is enough. I am however beginning to get some insight into why they haven't. Like most things, it is deeply rooted in history but while we cannot rewrite the past we don't have to be enslaved by it either. A new future can be forged if there is a will to do so.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> ... Like most things, it is deeply rooted in history ,,,



... or perhaps in a desire not to be a sitting duck ... the desire to actually fight back and survive ... the desire to let the law BE the law ... 

... or hey, maybe it's just that we're 'mericans and the harder you push the harder we resist.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 25, 2015)

Yes... because who knows when some invading hoards may wash across Canada and into the US..  Weeze gotta be ready!!!!


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## SifuPhil (Jul 25, 2015)

They've always been jealous of our pancakes - we have to be prepared!


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## mitchezz (Jul 25, 2015)

Why not just arm everyone and get on with it? People who don't want a gun can just stay inside and not go to shops, movies, Church, school etc


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## Warrigal (Jul 25, 2015)

Thinking about Suzie's question a bit more, I realise that I often look up Google News, and when I'm  saturated with Aussie news I switch to the US or UK news and see what is happening. Massacres and random shootings do make headlines.

Having done this just now I found this article that is relevant to my last post. 



> *Presidential Candidates Denounce Violence, but Avoid Talk of Policy*
> 
> By JONATHAN MARTINJULY 24, 2015
> 
> ...


And I guess that is why nothing ever seems to happen.

NBC has something to say on this too  http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/p...ting-spree-changed-australia-gun-laws-n396476


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## Susie (Jul 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Of course we do Susie and I debate most Australian issues on an Australian forum because there is only so much Australiana that is interesting to people from other countries.
> 
> I suppose I keep returning to the topic of firearms control because I really cannot understand why Americans haven't said enough bloodshed is enough. I am however beginning to get some insight into why they haven't. Like most things, it is deeply rooted in history but while we cannot rewrite the past we don't have to be enslaved by it either. A new future can be forged if there is a will to do so.


Thank you for your response, D.W.
Thinking of family and friends in the U.S., I'm not aware of anyone owning or using a firearm.
While still living in Campbell, Cal., our neighbor, an officer in the drug squad, must have had a gun, though!
When visiting the U.S, I was never afraid to walk or travel most places (areas to avoid are well documented)!
I also question whether Americans are enslaved by guns, although maybe the movie and TV industry is so enslaved by greed, they can't seem to produce some of the most absurd crime fiction fast enough.


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## Warrigal (Jul 25, 2015)

I didn't experience fear of people or guns when we were in the US either but perhaps we were just unaware of local dangers.
We even found the NY subway less than scary. I was more concerned about earthquakes.


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## BobF (Jul 25, 2015)

*A new future can be forged if there is a will to do so. *From a Warrigal post.

Which is not part of the US background for either party.   To cause such a change means we have to follow the rules for changing the Constitution.   This has been brought up before but for some reason it does not register for some folks.   Plenty are satisfied with how the US is going along and no reason for major changes are present right now.   One change we really need is a change from these self made political parties and going back to the basic rights of the individual to vote with their own vote and not directed by party.

One solution would be to end party identification on the ballots.    Just a list of names and activities and no party identification.   Which means those with a real party interest would need to learn names and parties prior to the elections.   Less for party and we would have more of personal wishes instead of party wishes.   Taking away party boxes long ago was a good move, now we should take away party id beside the names.    I wonder just how much money is wasted on party nonsense over personal rights and duties.


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## Cookie (Jul 25, 2015)

So many guns in the hands of so many people are bound to spell trouble, especially when so many have mental problems (schizophrenia, for example) where they attack randomly for reasons only known to themselves.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 25, 2015)

*booby traps and vandalism*

Shooter left a vandalized and booby trapped house.

http://wbay.com/2015/07/24/family-that-bought-gunmans-house-says-he-booby-trapped-it-to-explode/

After the shooter's old house was foreclosed on he left a vandalized and booby trapped house. He dumped concrete down pipes, glued all switches and breakers, defecated in and doused house with gasoline. Talk about vindictive. I can't believe criminal legal action was not taken back in March.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 25, 2015)

Cookie said:


> So many guns in the hands of so many people are bound to spell trouble, especially when so many have mental problems (schizophrenia, for example) where they attack randomly for reasons only known to themselves.



Yeap


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 25, 2015)

Although I'm a gun owner, I don't carry concealed, never felt the need to.  I was born and raised in the USA, I have no fear to go to movie theaters, malls and grew up riding the subways.  I'm not paranoid, these shootings are carried out by mentally disturbed people, they make the headlines and stay in the headlines for weeks on end, to put the fear in people, obviously it's very effective.  As I mentioned before, nobody seems to care about five people who were murdered in one stabbing incident, many choose to ignore that.  Those lives must not be as important as those lost in gun crimes.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 25, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> You're not mistaken at all Misty, many of these mass shootings do occur in gun-free zones, movie theaters, military stations (hope that changes), schools, etc.
> 
> Besides ignoring the fact that these shootings all occur in gun-free zones, also ignored is the fact that most if not all of these people are mentally ill, many of them under the influence of prescription drugs for depression, anxiety, bi-polar, etc. I've posted an old listing here of the murderers and the prescription drugs they were taking numerous times.  Many have other things in common, anti-government, racists, etc.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Saw this story on CNN as well. One thing that SB brought up was that many of these shooters were on prescription drugs. I think SSRIs are the most common. One side effect is aggression. I don't think the drugs put ideas in their head but with radical mood swings induced or not I can see many following through on what for many would be thoughts most set aside controlling the urge to actually act on them. These drugs are not an excuse but contributing factor.  Dylan Roof in Charleston was a known recent drug addict including pysch medications. He was a racist, no doubt but what affect did the drugs have on his existing ideas & plans, same for any of these shooters.

One must wonder with this Houser/theater shooter what happened during his forced psychiatric incarceration several years ago. Was he on or off medication. Did a doctor declare him cured. I can see the anti US government stance from this Houser since he was forcibly institutionalized and a court finalized a foreclosure. His hatred was misplaced but I can see his political rants and stances.

Along with Broken Arrow stabbings there was man in Brooklyn a year or two stabbed/sliced people with a machete. People say take away the guns but to me WHY do these want to act or use violence period. Many say availability etc but think about the act of actually killing someone for minute. That takes effort period especially if you think about the consequences, blood, getting caught reputation although gang members seem to add to their reputation. To most aggression and violence is "a" tool like it or not. But these mass shooters or even serial killers look at it as the answer to everything-how come?


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

Whether this shooters were on prescription drugs... or mentally ill is a red herring..   if they didn't have access to guns, they wouldn't have shot people.. period..


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

As pointed out, they would find some other way to do whatever it is they must do.   One post showed stabbings.   Do we also start an anti knife program?   How about taking away cars as they kill many folks too?

Lets put our efforts into stopping those Arab area nuts that are killing thousands and threatening to break out and come kill Americans.

No end to those that do want to do harm in the US so why just keep playing with the guns idea only.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

BobF said:


> As pointed out, they would find some other way to do whatever it is they must do.   One post showed stabbings.   Do we also start an anti knife program?   How about taking away cars as they kill many folks too?



Knives have other purposes... cutting food, etc..  Cars are meant to carry the population from point A to Point B...  Guns have NO purpose other than killing... That argument is plain silly,  and also a red herring.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Whether this shooters were on prescription drugs... or mentally ill is a red herring..   if they didn't have access to guns, they wouldn't have shot people.. period..



Soooo ... you advocate eliminating _all_ sources of guns in the U.S.? 

Good luck with that.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Soooo ... you advocate eliminating _all_ sources of guns in the U.S.?
> 
> Good luck with that.




Guns for hunting... and home defense.. absolutely..  however,  no assault weapons or large volume clips... no conceal and carry.   THAT is what I advocate.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 26, 2015)

BobF said:


> As pointed out, they would find some other way to do whatever it is they must do.   One post showed stabbings.   Do we also start an anti knife program?   How about taking away cars as they kill many folks too?
> 
> Lets put our efforts into stopping those Arab area nuts that are killing thousands and threatening to break out and come kill Americans.
> 
> No end to those that do want to do harm in the US so why just keep playing with the guns idea only.



I agree Bob.  I tell you one thing, if this guy was starting to grab me to cut off my head here in America, I'd be forever grateful to someone with a gun who was there to stop him and save my life and the lives of others.  This gun appeared one rolling head too late, but it easily could have been two or more. 



> Just after 4 p.m. on Sept. 25, Colleen Hufford, a 54-year-old grandmother and worker at Vaughan Foods in Moore, Okla., was standing in the doorway of the front office in the food processing facility's main building when Alton Nolen, a co-worker who had just been suspended over an argument with another colleague, violently grabbed her from behind.
> 
> As horrified employees watched, Nolen, a 30-year-old production line worker with a criminal history, savagely sawed at Hufford's throat with a large kitchen knife he had gone home to retrieve, severing her head.
> 
> ...


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## SifuPhil (Jul 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Guns for hunting... and home defense.. absolutely..  however,  no assault weapons or large volume clips... no conceal and carry.   THAT is what I advocate.



I thought real assault weapons were already illegal - certainly full-auto versions. Same with large clips.

Wasn't the gun used in the latest theater shooting a handgun? Used also for home defense? 

Conceal and carry - now that's a different kettle of fish. 

The thing is, as I see it, as long as you have guns anywhere - police, military, illegal importation, hunting, home defense - you're going to have someone who can gain access to them and can modify their original purposes. Anything can be a deadly weapon in the right hands.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

There is no point having these discussions...  the killing will continue ... because..


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## WhatInThe (Jul 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Whether this shooters were on prescription drugs... or mentally ill is a red herring..   if they didn't have access to guns, they wouldn't have shot people.. period..



Pure what if hypothetical, especially in the US.

 And what would happen in the US-hypothetically speaking after access to guns are denied. Are we all going to be holding hands singing in a circle shaking a tambourine in an utopian dream or dystopian nightmare.


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Knives have other purposes... cutting food, etc..  Cars are meant to carry the population from point A to Point B...  Guns have NO purpose other than killing... That argument is plain silly,  and also a red herring.



And lots of  meats on your table were shot with guns.   Chickens and turkeys were decapitated.   Some areas the animals were bled to death.   I think that bleeding to death to be quite cruel.    Maybe we should start a crusade against that act?

How many of all the killings you worry about were done with legally registered and used by the legal owner for killing.   I am guessing not many.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

How does the slaughter of animals for meat compare with the slaughter of humans... for nothing..????


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

You are constantly arguing against guns.   Should not be any.   How will we eat then?   And what would hunters use?     You make no sense with your constant argument.   And especially as it is in our Constitution about such things.    Ready to start the charge against the Constitution?   It can be done, but right now your attitude is of the minority, not the majority.


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## Don M. (Jul 26, 2015)

Every one of these mass shootings...from Virginia Tech to now, this Louisiana shooting...seem to have One thing in common.  That being that the shooter had a history of mental problems.  There are supposed to be laws that prevent the mentally ill from buying/possessing firearms, but it appears that having a law and enforcing that law are two different things.  

Care for the mentally ill has been substantially downgraded in recent decades, so if these people are allowed to circulate within normal society, we can only expect these kinds of events to continue happening.

It's very easy to blame "guns" for these tragic events....but a gun still requires a human finger on the trigger.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

> It's very easy to blame "guns" for these tragic events....but a gun still requires a human finger on the trigger.


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## Shalimar (Jul 26, 2015)

With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

Now that is one really stupid message above.   Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean.  How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway?   Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else.   But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.

One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything.   Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our Constitution.   That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind.   All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.



Can you compare the class of people killing others without only counting those with guns?    Dead is dead no matter the means. 

So much of Canada is pure open country.   Much of our problem in the US is the massing of so many folks in the cities we have now.   Places like Chicago where we have had warnings of problems and don't go into this or that neighbor hood.   We were told to stop well back behind the car ahead at a red light so you can maneuver about and get going if something happened. These warnings came from a policeman.  Many of our cities do have bad areas and those with guns in their hands are not trained or registered owners either.

I think governments really love to have no guns in their people.   Not sure why as the bad guys would love to come where few are able to shoot back.   The US was designed to have armed folks ready to defend and we do have them still in our midst.

And where is this utopia you are missing?


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## QuickSilver (Jul 26, 2015)

BobF said:


> Now that is one really stupid message above.   Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean.  How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway?   Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else.   But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.
> 
> One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything.   Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our Constitution.   That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind.   All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.



Look.....  I told this story before...  My SON was SHOT... by a school mate when he was 10..  I have lived this shit BOB....  So don't EVER lecture me..  K?


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

First time I heard that story.   Pretty sad but no excuse to lecture the forum about how you hate guns.  It should be the motivation for doing something positive and bitching on a forum is not positive nor productive.   So stand ready to hear my offers to end your misery by becoming effective rather than just bitching.

You did not say.   I hope your son lived through this, and if not, my sympathy goes to you for his loss.


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## Warrigal (Jul 26, 2015)

Bob, I would venture to say that only those for whom this debate has become personal really know the extent of the problem. 

As for the Constitution, it is just another law and it can be changed as it has been in the past. It is not Holy Writ and sacrosanct.

The first step in bringing about change it to  raise public awareness and when enough people see that change is for the good, then it will happen.
I would rather listen to people like QuickSilver, who like me is a mother, than to the likes of Charleston Heston who, by the time he died, was probably a little bit mad.

People sometimes ask me why I butt in on this debate. 

It is always because of the children. I spent yesterday watching three tiny little girls happily dancing at my grand daughters bridal shower. The thought of these little angels being injured in any way is anathema to me, whether it be by random murder, the actions of paedophiles, car accidents or drownings in backyard pools. Because of them I support effective weapons legislation (guns, knives, explosives and poisons), police actions to break up paedophile rings, road traffic patrols and random breath tests and strict regulation of swimming pools. 

All of the above measures cannot be 100% effective but they do make a difference. They do save lives and not only the lives of children.

It is a noble thing to die for the Constitution but it is not noble to sacrifice children to uphold one of the afterthoughts.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 26, 2015)

You know, Bob, there are people on this forum that see you as lecturing, bitching and stating negative and non-productive mish mash, and speaking of being effective, I hope you will stand ready for my advice to look in the mirror once in a while when you are planning all your enlightening post of the future.


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## BobF (Jul 26, 2015)

Ready for whatever and for people to think the world should stand still for their personal losses is not making sense at all.   I did not know what her driver is and little I can do to change that.   Still not heard if the child is dead or not.   Either way I can do nothing about it for her.

And for the change of the Constitution, it is not going to be easy even when the people gather to say do so.   Then they have to get the Congress interested in doing so.   Once that change is on paper it must circulate the states until most of them agree and say so.   If not enough states say so, it still won't get changed.   It appears to be multi step operation on purpose, to avoid rapid and not well thought out changes.   The Constitution is now 240 years old and little changed from original.   That is good in the minds of many.   For me, it is important to not make to many changes to our Constitution.   I would hate to be turned into one of those European types of countries.   Of course there are those that think Europe is better.


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## Shalimar (Jul 26, 2015)

What is a European type of,country?


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## Don M. (Jul 26, 2015)

bobf said:


> now that is one really stupid message above.   Are the mental incompetents to know what all those words mean.  How do any more restrictions on guns going to fix things anyway?   Most real gun owners do have experience with guns, have some training, some desire to not hurt someone else.   But those mental cases brought up above, just don't give a dam at all and are not trained and often are not owners of the guns, just something they wanted.
> 
> One thing for sure is your constant crying and complaining is not going to fix anything.   Best become the leader of a anti gun group willing to change our constitution.   That will not be an easy job, but at least you would be doing something productive in your mind.   All these lies of posts you keep putting up will never do the job you insist being done.



amen!


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## Don M. (Jul 26, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, to many of us living in countries with more stringent gun laws, and fewer homicides per capita, it would seem that a dystopian nightmare already exists.



When you look at the statistics about gun violence in America, one thing quickly becomes obvious...Demographics.  With the exception of these mass shootings conducted by Lunatics, who should Never be allowed to be in possession of a firearm...the vast majority of gun violence takes place in our inner cities among members of the drug gangs.  Anyone who lives in our cities Knows which areas to stay Well Away From.  

Passing "blanket" restrictions on guns is certainly Not the answer.  Penalizing responsible sportsmen and hunters for the actions of the lunatics and criminals would prove to be counterproductive.  If there ever were any major restrictions placed on gun ownership, you can bet that None of the criminals would give up their weapons.


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## Warrigal (Jul 26, 2015)

Could you post those statistics, Don, because I can't find a demographic breakdown comparing cities with rural areas. I can find breakdowns by gender, age, race and ethnicity.  While searching around I found this small section of a very long study. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/chapter-5-context/



> How do U.S. gun ownership or gun crime compare with those in other nations? Although international data collection suffers from the same problems as gathering information about guns in the U.S., most research agrees that civilians in the United States own more firearms both total and per capita than those in any other nation.
> The Small Arms Survey in 2007 found not only that U.S. civilians had more total firearms than any other nation (270 million) but also that the rate of ownership (about 90 firearms for every 100 people) was higher than in other countries. “With less than 5 percent of the world’s population, the United States is home to 35-50 per cent of the world’s civilian-owned guns,” according to the survey, which included estimates for 178 countries.
> 
> As for gun crime, research has found that the U.S. has a higher gun homicide and overall homicide rate than most developed nations, although the U.S. does not have the world’s highest rate for either. The U.S. does not outrank other developed nations for overall crime, but crimes with firearms are more likely to occur in the U.S. (Van Dijk, et al., 2007).
> ...



I suppose Americans can find comfort in knowing that Mexico is worse.


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## Don M. (Jul 26, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Could you post those statistics, Don, because I can't find a demographic breakdown comparing cities with rural areas. I can find breakdowns by gender, age, race and ethnicity.  While searching around I found this small section of a very long study. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/chapter-5-context/
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose you can find comfort in knowing that Mexico is worse.



If you found the statistics showing the breakdowns by gender, race, etc., you probably have a pretty good picture of where most of the gun violence lies in the US.  I don't recall ever seeing a breakdown by Urban/ rural.  I know that in our area, the Only murder that has taken place within 30 miles occurred about 5 years ago...some woman shot her abusive husband.  I think the judge/jury ruled it justifiable, and gave her probation.  I check the Internet news in Kansas City, and watch the TV news from Columbia, MO., and hardly a day goes by in those cities that doesn't have a shooting incident....and the suspect description in 4 out 5 five of those events is usually a young Black male.  

Here, our county weekly police report generally consists of a couple of DUI arrests, a traffic accident, a petty theft, or two, and some neighbor filing a report of a nuisance barking dog.  There have been a couple of incidents, over the years, where some A$$hole set up a Meth lab back in the woods, but the local sheriffs dept. quickly found them, and shut them down.


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## Warrigal (Jul 26, 2015)

Don, I'm still sifting studies and they do not all look the same things but I've read enough to challenge your assertion. In absolute numbers cities are where most gun deaths occur but when the figures are looked as on a rate basis (per 100,000) rural areas have their fair share of gun deaths, especially when the suicide rate and accidents are included. It's hard to find studies that are current but this is the sort of conclusions that keep coming up

This one does not include accidental death by firearm. I'm not sure which counties were studied but 3,141 counties must include urban counties with some big cities in them




> *Abstract*
> 
> _Objectives._ We analyzed urban–rural differences in intentional firearm death.
> 
> ...




From another study, there is quite a bit of variation state by state. For example this graph shows that rural Tennessee is much safer than urban Tennessee but rural and urban Washington are much closer with respect to gun deaths. These graphs do include accidental as well as intentional deaths. However, it only considers hand guns deaths. Once long guns are included there could be a very different result.



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405837_4


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## BobF (Jul 27, 2015)

That is all well and good about gun stats.    Now go back into all those countries and check on deaths by whatever means done violently.   Knives kill, so do beatings, how about gang efforts, ropes, pushed off buildings or cliffs, on and on.   It is not just about guns when trying to compare violent deaths.   Problem would be that not all countries even keep good data and even better data countries don't count the same way.   Violent dead by any way is still dead, but when intent is included the numbers will change.   In countries where guns are not available *gun death* will naturally drop but that does not tell the whole story about violent deaths, anywhere.   Counting gun deaths only is just a biased way for some folks to push their idea.


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## BobF (Jul 27, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What is a European type of,country?



To me, that is just the way European history has run, and is running today.   Sudden changes from one way to another by military force.    Right now there is a change where Russia is helping some folks change from Romania? to Russia.   No war but plenty of Russian military involved.   It seems to be no standstill among the European countries.   They have recently made an effort with the European Union.   But even now there are weaknesses in how it goes from day to day.   

http://www.viralforest.com/watch-1000-years-european-borders-change/


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## Warrigal (Jul 27, 2015)

Here you go Bob. A detailed report on all homicides, not counting war casualties and suicides. It includes all kinds of weapons and methods of killing.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/2014_GLOBAL_HOMICIDE_BOOK_web.pdf

Dig in.

Here is a graphic that summarises the situation.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 27, 2015)

Canada, GB and Australia are SO pale ...


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## Don M. (Jul 27, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Don, I'm still sifting studies and they do not all look the same things but I've read enough to challenge your assertion. In absolute numbers cities are where most gun deaths occur but when the figures are looked as on a rate basis (per 100,000) rural areas have their fair share of gun deaths, especially when the suicide rate and accidents are included. It's hard to find studies that are current but this is the sort of conclusions that keep coming up
> 
> This one does not include accidental death by firearm. I'm not sure which counties were studied but 3,141 counties must include urban counties with some big cities in them



These reports, and statistics...like most I've seen...are full of "If's, And's, or But's.  Most statistical reports on this subject seem to be inconclusive, and like most statistics, are biased towards the authors personal viewpoints.  In rural areas, among the White populations, suicides and accidents are probably the leading causes of gun related deaths...as opposed to the criminal activities that account for most of the city incidents.  On balance, those in rural areas, are far less likely to be the victims of criminal gun related events.  

Insofar as suicides are concerned, I think our society is Long Overdue to enact laws allowing "Death with Dignity".  I recently saw what can happen to a person when they have given up on life.  One of our elderly neighbors has had ongoing health issues for years....Bi Polar Disorder, multiple strokes, Diabetes, etc., and has lost much of his brain function.  He longs to depart this world.  A couple of weeks ago, he hobbled out to his garage, and slit his wrists.  His wife checked on him, and found him bleeding badly.  She quickly called a neighbor, who was able to apply some bandages, and they called an ambulance.  He is now lying in a hospital, with little hope for any good prospects.  It is so sad when people become so despondent that they feel the need to hold a pistol to their chin, or swallow a bottle of toxic pills....but that is the way our society forces them to act.  

Gun deaths are, and always will be, part of our environment in the U.S.  The Only way to reduce these numbers would be to find some way to remove firearms from the criminals and mentally disturbed.  Good luck on that...the dozens of laws on the books have done little, so far, to achieve such goals.


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## Shalimar (Jul 27, 2015)

DW, what area does the small slightly darker square on upper left coast of BC indicate? Also, since Vancouver Island does not seem to be visible on this map, we must be homicide free!!!


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## Warrigal (Jul 27, 2015)

Perhaps BC is the murder/suicide/intentional homicide rate capital of Canada but I doubt it. As far as I know these figures are for whole countries so it mist be an anomaly. 

the report is very long and I certainly didn't read all of it. Just skimmed through until I could find some comparisons by country that included deaths not just related to guns. When knives and bricks are included it is possible to compare countries to see how dangerous they are as places to live.

I certainly wouldn't want to live in South Africa.


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## BobF (Jul 27, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> DW, what area does the small slightly darker square on upper left coast of BC indicate? Also, since Vancouver Island does not seem to be visible on this map, we must be homicide free!!!


 
Is that possibly the southern coastal strip of Alaska?


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## BobF (Jul 27, 2015)

Warrigal, I did look at your input and even read parts.   Lots of self imposed discounters listed.   Also found some rather confusing charts.   For example, showing guns in various parts of the world, men and women, all shown as parts of 100% so everything looks the same.   Well, anyway, after a while I shut down as confusion already reigns and no need for more.


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## Shalimar (Jul 27, 2015)

Perhaps it is Bob.


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