# Grandchildren living far away



## Bobw235 (Jun 5, 2016)

I've written on this topic in the past, but wanted to revisit it to see if the collective wisdom of this board might have suggestions for dealing with a difficult situation.  In summary:

Only son married a British woman and resides in England and has no intention of moving back.
They have two children (a boy, 5 and a girl, 3).
Our relationship with our daughter-in-law is poor for a number of reasons, but primarily it's because of miscommunication and her (likely) ongoing depression/anxiety.  She's an emotionally abusive whacko in non-scientific terms.  Example:  She was offended after my wife complained about a dismal week in Scotland (rain, cold, wind) after our grandson was born.  She said it was disrespectful of my wife to complain about a place that has special meaning for her.
Our son as told us that they intend to divorce at some point in the future, but that won't happen for a few years if at all as she's going to "university" to learn a new profession and has announced that she's taking a year off to be with their younger daughter before she starts school in 2017.
We've been there three times since our grandson was born.
Son is only one working and they have no money to travel here.  I proposed that he come here with his son for a visit and that we'd pay his way.
Following a two week vacation to England last year where we paid for everything and stayed together, we've not heard a word from our daughter-in-law.
My wife and I have separately reached out to her to try to "mend fences" and start fresh, putting the emphasis on making sure we get to know our grandkids.  Never received a reply to my email sent two months ago, as our DIL has "no emotional space" to deal with the issues between us according to our son.
Last night sent a very stern note to our son putting the ball in his court saying:  Tell us how we make this work so we can have a relationship with our grandkids.  As it is us see them about ever 2-3 weeks for 15 minutes over video.  It's not working to foster closeness and a better relationship with them.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome.  My wife is so upset over all this.  It consumes her thoughts.  It's been a year since we saw the grandkids in person.


----------



## Lon (Jun 5, 2016)

The reason I am living where I am now instead of New Zealand or Roseville, California is to be closer to my immediate family of daughter, grand children and great grand children. They are all within 20 minutes of where I live. My ex wife has done the same thing and was the main reason for our AMICABLE DIVORCE.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 5, 2016)

Bob, I applaud your "stern note." I hope it bears fruit. Re your daughter in law. I have my doubts that anything you and your wife could do would satisfy her. I think she's a narcissist, who believes she is the main attraction in her life, and everyone 

else is a bit player. I feel for you and your son. I had a mother like that, you cannot reason with these people,  I suspect your son goes  along with her,either because she has brainwashed him, or he wants peace at any price. This personality disorder 

takes no prisoners, but turns the lives of loved ones into a toxic soap opera. In my experience, eventually, one must set boundaries in order to stay sane. On no account fall victim to the fantasy that somehow this is your fault. It isn't. This is a 

divide and conquer strategy, designed to ensure that DIL retains her control over your son and grandchildren. Classic abusive narcissistic  pathology. On a more positive note, your son is young yet. Often, as they mature, spouses rebel against the 

tyranny of these emotional vampires. Should that happen, he will need the support of his parents. I wish you the best during this difficult time. Hugs.


----------



## Underock1 (Jun 5, 2016)

I have more I could say on this topic, but just a quick suggestion for now. How about writing to your grandkids? There is something about the written word that can be more bonding than visual or even face to face contact. I'm thinking "snail mail", but I know nothing about cell phones or texting. Would they work internationally? I feel deeply for you on this subject, Bob. Our grandkids lived close, and were the greatest joy of our lives. I was fortunate enough to be unemployed for a year and was their daily baby sitter when they were three years old. The happiest time of my life. No adult supervision!
One is living rent free upstairs right now. He will move out to get married the end of this month and the other is moving in with his wife to live rent free until they can save enough for a house.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 5, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Bob, I applaud your "stern note." I hope it bears fruit. Re your daughter in law. I have my doubts that anything you and your wife could do would satisfy her. I think she's a narcissist, who believes she is the main attraction in her life, and everyone
> 
> else is a bit player. I feel for you and your son. I had a mother like that, you cannot reason with these people,  I suspect your son goes  along with her,either because she has brainwashed him, or he wants peace at any price. This personality disorder
> 
> ...



Thanks Shalimar.  It's certainly been a vexing problem for many years, even before our son got married.  We've tried all that we could think of to get close to our DIL.  You've pegged her pretty well, and my wife looked up the term you used and the description is apt.  Our son is one who does all he can to avoid conflict, so that just exacerbates the problem in trying to build a better bond.  Our DIL needs counseling, but refuses to go.  She's chronically worried about a medically insignificant issue involving her son and is on a perpetual mission to assign blame (to herself) for an issue that several doctors have assured her is nothing to be even slightly alarmed about.  All of this has conspired to create a tense atmosphere when we've visited over there.  We've told our son that he's in an abusive relationship, but he presents the classic signs of one who is abused:  defending the spouse or saying that he brings it on.  My wife is sick over this.

Thanks again for your thoughts.  I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 5, 2016)

Underock1 said:


> I have more I could say on this topic, but just a quick suggestion for now. How about writing to your grandkids? There is something about the written word that can be more bonding than visual or even face to face contact. I'm thinking "snail mail", but I know nothing about cell phones or texting. Would they work internationally? I feel deeply for you on this subject, Bob. Our grandkids lived close, and were the greatest joy of our lives. I was fortunate enough to be unemployed for a year and was their daily baby sitter when they were three years old. The happiest time of my life. No adult supervision!
> One is living rent free upstairs right now. He will move out to get married the end of this month and the other is moving in with his wife to live rent free until they can save enough for a house.



A good suggestion and one we've tried in the past with mixed results.  I think the kids like getting the letters, but as we've told our son, it would be nice to get some form of feedback when we send a card of letter.  Sometimes he'll shoot us a video of them reading the letter and that makes us feel good, but other times we get nothing.  I've recently suggested to my son that he set up an email account (that he would obviously control) for our grandson.  This way we could send mail to him and his sister and he'd get used to seeing this type of communication from us.  Not that this would get us away from the hand written notes of course.  I agree with you that his is crucial.

When my grandson was born, I was over the moon and the early visits were a joy for me.  Last year spending two weeks with them was so special.  Now that we're retired, we had hoped to be able to spend more time seeing them, or at least have better contact.  It's still early in their lives, but I fear that we'll always be known as the grandparents they see on a small screen once in a while.  How sad.  Last year when we were with them for the two weeks, we were "allowed" to be alone with them for about 3 hours one night when our son and DIL went out for dinner.  That was it.  It's painful.  Thanks for your thoughts and understanding.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 7, 2016)

I have followed up with my son saying that we'll pay for him to visit us here in the US with his son, pointing out the advantages to all of us.  He wrote back saying his wife would never go for it, but I've pushed back and basically said "be a man, be a father" and do what's right.


----------



## Gemma (Jun 7, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> I have followed up with my son saying that we'll pay for him to visit us here in the US with his son, pointing out the advantages to all of us.  He wrote back saying his wife would never go for it, but I've pushed back and basically said "be a man, be a father" and do what's right.



IMO, you gave him an ultimatum. You will pay for _just_ your son & grandson to visit.  I can completely understand when your son tells you that his wife would never go for it.  You are alienating your DIL & granddaughter, by only inviting your son & grandson to the states.

Do what's right....For whom...you and your wife?  Sounds selfish to me.  

Doesn't the Bible state that a man shall leave his mother & father,  and shall cleave onto his wife?

They are a young married couple with two small children, trying to make a life of their own.  I'd say, he is trying to be a man, a father and doing what is right for his family.  

Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps you are feeling the empty nest syndrome?  You cannot control your sons actions anymore, especially long distance.  Once an adult child is out on their own, they are their own boss in the present & future.  To make demands, will only backfire eventually.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 7, 2016)

My grandchildren live only about 25 miles from me, but because of a bad relationship with my daughter in law, they might as well be hundreds of miles away.   I am lucky that my son does bring them to see me  three or four times a year.  

It's sometimes very difficult for the paternal grandparents to be close to their grandchildren.  It really all depends on the Mother..  If she chooses to allow it or not.   From experience and from talking to many other paternals... this is really not usually the case, and preference and access to the children is generally given to the wife's parents and the husbands parents left out of the picture. 

  NO.. it's not fair.. and it's very painful, but it is what it is.   I understand your pain and frustration Bob and I feel your pain..  Unless you have been through it Gemma... your words are meaningless, and it sounds to me that you have all girls... lucky YOU...


----------



## CoMoJayne (Jun 7, 2016)

I wholeheartedly agree that our weekly Facetimes do not make up for hugs, kisses and cuddles. So we make the 10 hour drive (one-way) about every 8-10 weeks.  Our son is divorced and has the children a full 50% of the time.  I will tell you, now that he doesn't have to consider their mother in any of his decisions and we don't have to deal with her, we have so much more access and are so much closer with him and his 3.  I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions for you.  I'm assuming you are leaving the granddaughter out of your invitation because she's still so little?  I think you'd be cutting yourself short not to include her, the earlier you bond the better.  And I can see their mom not going for it because you are taking them out of the country and if they are already talking divorce, she's probably got all kinds of fears about what could happen.  Even if it isn't realistic.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2016)

Bob, if your DIL is a narcissist, reasonable behaviour on her part is not part of the picture. I don't see any harm in your ultimatum at this point. Who knows, your son may start to stand up for himself. In my experience, when toxic marriages 

unravel, sometimes grandparents become a touchstone. You may find that your son's attitude does a turnabout should that occur. Regardless, I think your DIL has held you and your wife's emotions hostage long enough.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemma, relationships are complex, familial ones more so. They involve give and take, compromise, all the good stuff, in order to flourish. However, that system only works if everyone plays on the same team. In this instance, the Queen Bee is running 

the show, stinging other participants at her whim. It is a toxic situation. It is in no way helpful to anyone involved, if the grandparents continually give in, believing that somehow the situation will rectify itself. In all my years as a therapissed, I have never met a narcissist who willingly shared power with anyone.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 7, 2016)

Gemma said:


> IMO, you gave him an ultimatum. You will pay for _just_ your son & grandson to visit.  I can completely understand when your son tells you that his wife would never go for it.  You are alienating your DIL & granddaughter, by only inviting your son & grandson to the states.
> 
> Do what's right....For whom...you and your wife?  Sounds selfish to me.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts, but you're off base in reading the situation.  Perhaps I didn't do a good job explaining it.  We've been over there three times since our grandchildren were born.  The goal in proposing that my son and his son visit is to make the best of a bad situation.  We've done all we can to build a relationship with our son's wife, but she's got serious emotional and psychological issues that will probably always present an obstacle to seeing our grandchildren.  We feel it's critical that they get to know us, because the reality is that our son is never moving back to the states.  We've made our peace with that.  At the same time it's been five years since our son came home.  At this stage in our lives, it's not reasonable to expect us to bear the expense or the stress of of what turns out to be about a 24 hour trip to get there (factoring in all aspects of the trip), on top of dealing with our daughter-in-law.  Our intention was to have our granddaughter visit with our son next year, when she's old enough to appreciate the visit.  We realize that were our son to propose to our DIL that he bring both kids, that would be a non-starter (she's suggested many times that she believes he'll run off to the States with them one day, she's that twisted and paranoid.)

With respect to your comment about empty next syndrome, nothing could be further from the truth.  We were thrilled when he moved out.  Our soul purpose here is to build a face to face relationship with our grandchildren.  I can't control my son's actions, but I can certainly try to influence them.  Without understanding the dynamics here, it would be difficult for you to properly assess the situation.  One of the underlying goals in my trying to force the issue is to get our son to stand up to the woman who bullies, manipulates and generally makes his life miserable, keeping in mind their stated intention to divorce in a few years.

As for the Bible.  I don't look to it for my teaching or path in life.

I guess my feeling ultimately comes down to trying to force the issue with my son, so that we have a chance to see our grandchildren.  If I do nothing, I'll never get to see them unless I go over there and be forced to spend time with the DIL.  We had originally suggested coming over and staying nearby, to which our DIL said she didn't want our son driving both kids.  Do you see the dilemma now?


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 7, 2016)

CoMoJayne said:


> I wholeheartedly agree that our weekly Facetimes do not make up for hugs, kisses and cuddles. So we make the 10 hour drive (one-way) about every 8-10 weeks.  Our son is divorced and has the children a full 50% of the time.  I will tell you, now that he doesn't have to consider their mother in any of his decisions and we don't have to deal with her, we have so much more access and are so much closer with him and his 3.  I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions for you.  I'm assuming you are leaving the granddaughter out of your invitation because she's still so little?  I think you'd be cutting yourself short not to include her, the earlier you bond the better.  And I can see their mom not going for it because you are taking them out of the country and if they are already talking divorce, she's probably got all kinds of fears about what could happen.  Even if it isn't realistic.



Thanks for your thoughts here.  See my earlier reply to Gemma about why our granddaughter wasn't included in this year's invitation.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 7, 2016)

I firmly believe that some young women use the "leave and Cleave" verse of the Bible to mean that their husband must completely abandon his parents in favor of her and her family.   So many times this verse is used to support the alienation of a man from his bio-family.   But the Bible also says to honor your father and your mother.. That includes BOTH sets.    I believe children benefit from exposure to both sides of their heritage and this should be encouraged, not discouraged or made next to impossible.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 7, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Bob, if your DIL is a narcissist, reasonable behaviour on her part is not part of the picture. I don't see any harm in your ultimatum at this point. Who knows, your son may start to stand up for himself. In my experience, when toxic marriages
> 
> unravel, sometimes grandparents become a touchstone. You may find that your son's attitude does a turnabout should that occur. Regardless, I think your DIL has held you and your wife's emotions hostage long enough.



Appreciate your thoughts here and the support.  I have separately sent our son a detailed list of items that he could use to help him convince the wife about the practicality of our proposal.  We'll see what happens.  Just trying to make the best of a really messy situation.  Sadly, there are no easy answers here.


----------



## Gemma (Jun 7, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Gemma, relationships are complex, familial ones more so. They involve give and take, compromise, all the good stuff, in order to flourish. However, that system only works if everyone plays on the same team. In this instance, the Queen Bee is running
> 
> the show, stinging other participants at her whim. It is a toxic situation. It is in no way helpful to anyone involved, if the grandparents continually give in, believing that somehow the situation will rectify itself. In all my years as a therapissed, I have never met a narcissist who willingly shared power with anyone.



Thank you, Shalimar, for sharing your thoughts/opinion on family relationships.  Your actually not telling me anything that I don't already know.  Having adult children and grandchildren of my own, I do not find complexity at all.  I respect that they are adults, have their own lives to live and need to raise their own children the way they see fit.  Unless they ask for my input, I stay out of their business.   

The problem with labels (narcissist, as you labeled her) is they are merely shells that contain assumptions. When we are taken in by a label, we are taken in by opinions and beliefs. That is, we willingly accept statements without evidence of their validity.  If you never met this woman, how can you label her?


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2016)

Although I am to some extent guesstimating, during my career as a psychotherapist/psychologist, I have met many 
people,  men and women who exhibit the symptoms Bob described re his DIL. Invariably they pointed toward some type of personality disorder, usually narcissism. Bolstered by Bob's statements regarding his opinion of my analysis of this woman's behaviour, and likely underlying pathology, I am comfortable with my position. With respect, since you have ever met this woman, and as far as I know aren't a mental health professional, how can you be certain the label is invalid?


----------



## nitelite (Jun 7, 2016)

Bob, I have a very similar situation. As hard as it is and how much it hurts you need to let it go and give yourselves peace. It won't change unless the daughter-in-law is out of the picture. It is terribly sad how one person can make so many others miserable and deny her own children their right to have and enjoy family member in their lives.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 8, 2016)

nitelite said:


> Bob, I have a very similar situation. As hard as it is and how much it hurts you need to let it go and give yourselves peace. It won't change unless the daughter-in-law is out of the picture. It is terribly sad how one person can make so many others miserable and deny her own children their right to have and enjoy family member in their lives.



Thanks for your thoughts here and I can understand the sentiment.  Sorry to hear that you're going through the similar issues.  While our daughter-in-law isn't preventing our being able to see the kids (sorry if I gave that impression), she has made it pretty clear she wants nothing to do with us.  That puts us in a difficult position.  Yes, we could go over there to visit, but the reality is such that she will have put up barriers that would make the trip less than fun.  In offering our son the opportunity to come here with the oldest child, I thought that was a good compromise and one that we're hoping will be more palatable to our DIL compared to our coming there.  I wouldn't even mind going there if she would let our son bring the kids to us, but that also raises problems in terms of getting around since I won't drive in England.  We have even talked about renting a place over there in the summer when the kids are on break from school, but won't do that unless we're on better terms with our DIL.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 8, 2016)

I have simply found it easier to simply not care so much..  I got tired of it eating me alive so I stopped...  It's unfortunate to say, but I really have a minimal amount invested in the GKs now..  It's sad, but it's come to that.   Guess my "grandmother gene" withered on the vine from neglect.   It's hard to stay connected and interested if you are not allowed much contact and are not involved in their daily lives.   I find there is little to talk about on their infrequent visits.   Everyone has lost out... all because of an insecure juvenile young woman.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 8, 2016)

QS, I am so sorry this has happened in your life.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 8, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> I have simply found it easier to simply not care so much..  I got tired of it eating me alive so I stopped...  It's unfortunate to say, but I really have a minimal amount invested in the GKs now..  It's sad, but it's come to that.   Guess my "grandmother gene" withered on the vine from neglect.   It's hard to stay connected and interested if you are not allowed much contact and are not involved in their daily lives.   I find there is little to talk about on their infrequent visits.   Everyone has lost out... all because of an insecure juvenile young woman.



That's really sad to hear QS.  I shared this reply with my wife who said in response "I can't let that happen."  I totally get the sentiment though, as this period has been difficult for my wife (less so for me).  She's going to fight as hard as she can to make sure she has a relationship with the GKs.  But I also know that emotionally it's wearing her down.  There have been tears over the situation and there are sadly no easy answers here, which is why I'm appreciative of the suggestions and support found in this online community.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 8, 2016)

Well, I've found in my life that sometimes you just have to accept what "is" to save your own stomach lining and mental health.  I've also found that forcing relationships or trying to force them never works and sometimes only causes the other party to become more entrenched.  

I certainly don't intend any criticism of anyone involved in your sad situation, but you don't want to push so hard that you become estranged from your son.  My sister made this mistake and is now pretty much irretrievably estranged from that side of the family, and has been for about 15 years.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 8, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> Well, I've found in my life that sometimes you just have to accept what "is" to save your own stomach lining and mental health.  I've also found that forcing relationships or trying to force them never works and sometimes only causes the other party to become more entrenched.
> 
> I certainly don't intend any criticism of anyone involved in your sad situation, but you don't want to push so hard that you become estranged from your son.  My sister made this mistake and is now pretty much irretrievably estranged from that side of the family, and has been for about 15 years.




I agree... and that's why I disinvested myself.  Why spend what's left of my life pining for what I don't have, when I do have a lot to be thankful for.  You just can't be sad all the time can you?   It's hard to live that way and I have refused to do so. I have what I think is a good relationship with my son.   Of course it's not the same as having a daughter..  We speak on the phone or text.. but not every day... and not even every week..  But he contacted me last week and asked if we would be home this Sunday so he can bring the kids over.  My older son is going to visit too so he can see his brother and his niece and nephews.. We probably will go out to dinner..   I know how it will go..   I will ask the kids about what's going on with them.. They will say "nothing"...  I will ask about school.... they will say.. "it's ok"...   I will ask all the usual things and they will give one word answers and go back to their video games.    I'll run out of things to say, and I'll check in here...   It is what it is.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 8, 2016)

Just now had a wonderfully long call with them over FaceTime.  My son called us.  Both grandchildren were engaged and seemed to be interested in talking with us.  They seem genuinely interested in stories about their father and liked seeing his old bedroom, even though it looks nothing like it did when our son was living here.  It was so nice to have them interacting with us, showing us their toys and asking questions.  I showed them pictures from last year when we were all together.

Here are two recent pics, just so you know who I'm talking about.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 8, 2016)

Beautiful children Bob. I am so pleased you had a lovely talk.


----------



## Underock1 (Jun 8, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> Just now had a wonderfully long call with them over FaceTime.  My son called us.  Both grandchildren were engaged and seemed to be interested in talking with us.  They seem genuinely interested in stories about their father and liked seeing his old bedroom, even though it looks nothing like it did when our son was living here.  It was so nice to have them interacting with us, showing us their toys and asking questions.  I showed them pictures from last year when we were all together.
> 
> Here are two recent pics, just so you know who I'm talking about.
> 
> ...



That's just great, Bob. Good looking kids. I think I detect a BobW smile back there.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 8, 2016)

That's wonderful!   They are beautiful children!


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 8, 2016)

I'm so glad you had a nice talk.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 8, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> I agree... and that's why I disinvested myself.  Why spend what's left of my life pining for what I don't have, when I do have a lot to be thankful for.  You just can't be sad all the time can you?   It's hard to live that way and I have refused to do so. I have what I think is a good relationship with my son.   Of course it's not the same as having a daughter..  We speak on the phone or text.. but not every day... and not even every week..  But he contacted me last week and asked if we would be home this Sunday so he can bring the kids over.  My older son is going to visit too so he can see his brother and his niece and nephews.. We probably will go out to dinner..   I know how it will go..   I will ask the kids about what's going on with them.. They will say "nothing"...  I will ask about school.... they will say.. "it's ok"...   I will ask all the usual things and they will give one word answers and go back to their video games.    I'll run out of things to say, and I'll check in here...   It is what it is.



I know my sister wishes she had made the same wise decision you did.


----------



## Ruthanne (Jun 9, 2016)

Really cute grandkids Bob!  I bet you miss them a whole lot.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 9, 2016)

Ruthanne said:


> Really cute grandkids Bob!  I bet you miss them a whole lot.



Thanks Ruthanne.  We do miss them, especially now that they're at a fun age.  Last year was a blast being with them for two weeks in a beautiful location (St. Ives in Cornwall, England).  We were all under one roof.  It was fun yesterday hearing my little granddaughter trying to make my wife laugh.  She said "I love you, Grandma" at the end of the call, and our grandson said he enjoyed talking with us.  Their accents are so much more pronounced now.


----------



## Debby (Jun 9, 2016)

I think the problem with labels on people who have issues, is that they only describe outward behaviours but say absolutely nothing about whatever the inner, mental torment of that person might be.  

It's 'easy' to sympathize with someone who's been diagnosed with a mental illness, and it's easy to judge someone who's 'difficult'.  The problem is that the difficult person may be dealing with mental 'stuff' that is neither visible nor something they can talk about and which you, with your healthy mind may feel is silly and insignificant.  But to that person, it may be a mountain that they feel they can't overcome.

I think in a situation like you're dealing with Bob, the best thing that both you and your wife can do is just let your son and your daughter in law know that whatever comes, you're door is open to them because you love them and your grandchildren.  And when those moments come when even one of them steps through that door like your son did recently, then just soak it up and enjoy it and be positive and loving because it sets the stage for the next time they might want to come 'through that door'.


----------



## Debby (Jun 9, 2016)

And Bob, here's an idea for your wife to consider and one that I'm going to start practising with my grandkids as next year we will be moving away from them.  My granddaughter loves all things 'kitty' so starting this week, I am going to make a point of sending her a little card, or a picture or maybe a little toy that depicts cute kitties once a month.  And as she learns to read, the cards will have age appropriate messages from me to her. My grandson will be a little harder to do because I don't think I've ever seen a Star Wars card or computer game cards but I'll try to find little things to send him too.  And as they grow up, they will always know that Grandma was thinking about them and their interests, that I was interested in the things they are interested in.  And it will help me to feel good about being involved in their lives even though there's distance between us because I'll be looking out for little special reminders of love.  And as your grandchildren are willing to talk to you on the phone, the cards are a continual reminder that you love to talk with them too because you can say something like, 'I can hardly wait till our next chat on the phone...' or something like that.  

Maybe your wife would enjoy adding something like this to your current relationship with the little ones?  And it seems to me, that maybe over time, your daughter in law might even be moved out of whatever inner turmoil she's dealing with, to take a tentative step through that door too.  Stranger things have happened in this very strange world.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 9, 2016)

Debby said:


> And Bob, here's an idea for your wife to consider and one that I'm going to start practising with my grandkids as next year we will be moving away from them.  My granddaughter loves all things 'kitty' so starting this week, I am going to make a point of sending her a little card, or a picture or maybe a little toy that depicts cute kitties once a month.  And as she learns to read, the cards will have age appropriate messages from me to her. My grandson will be a little harder to do because I don't think I've ever seen a Star Wars card or computer game cards but I'll try to find little things to send him too.  And as they grow up, they will always know that Grandma was thinking about them and their interests, that I was interested in the things they are interested in.  And it will help me to feel good about being involved in their lives even though there's distance between us because I'll be looking out for little special reminders of love.  And as your grandchildren are willing to talk to you on the phone, the cards are a continual reminder that you love to talk with them too because you can say something like, 'I can hardly wait till our next chat on the phone...' or something like that.
> 
> Maybe your wife would enjoy adding something like this to your current relationship with the little ones?  And it seems to me, that maybe over time, your daughter in law might even be moved out of whatever inner turmoil she's dealing with, to take a tentative step through that door too.  Stranger things have happened in this very strange world.



Thanks Debby.  We'll be continuing to send over cards and letters of course.  Also, our son just set up a joint email address for them so that they can get used to the idea of hearing from us this way too.  Our grandson dictated to his father what to write after seeing our initial note.  I think this will be fun for them.  We can send funny pictures, short videos and other things to capture their interest.  Still hoping that our son will convince his wife that visiting us with our grandson this summer will be a good thing for all of us.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## Debby (Jun 9, 2016)

I hope it works out for you Bob and I'll cross my fingers for you too!  Here's hoping right!


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 20, 2016)

Since several of you were kind enough to offer your thoughts and opinions in this thread, I thought you might like an update.

Today I received a lengthy email from my daughter-in-law with a litany of grievances against us going back some five years.  What it points out is how the lack of communication when one feels slighted or has an issue with another person can lead to festering resentment and mistrust.

It ended on a hopeful note that we might find our way towards reconciliation and a better relationship.  She stressed that she wants us in the lives of her children and she's pleased that we write to them frequently and make the effort to chat via FaceTime.

Where this goes from here is anyone's guess, but at least it's a step in the right direction.  She and our son have proposed that we visit over the in England at a place called Centre Parcs, where we could spend time with just our son and both grandkids.  I'll have to do some research on the place.  I know my son has spoken highly of it in the past.  Any of the UK folks have any thoughts about Centre Parcs as a destination?

Again, I value the input from this diverse group as I navigate this difficult topic.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 20, 2016)

Wow Bob, I am surprised, pleasantly so. Perhaps your DIL is not completely intractable after all. Sad that she has a litany of grievances going back five years, but it is a positive step that she is interested in having you and your wife involved in your 

grandchildren's lives. Expressing a desire for reconciliation is a huge plus also. I think the idea of you visiting  your son and grandson on a more neutral ground could well be a step in the right direction. Perhaps in time, she will feel sufficiently secure to


permit them to visit you stateside. I applaud your honesty in expressing your feelings to your son, perhaps he listened on a deeper level than was apparent. I would however suggest a modicum of caution. Give your DIL the benefit of the 

doubt, meet her  halfway, etc, but if she truly is a narcissist, manipulation, misdirection, and control are her go to patterns whenever she feels slighted/insecure. Smoke and mirrors are a definite possibility. Best of luck. I hope this is the beginning of a new relationship for you all.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jul 15, 2016)

Just updating this thread with a few quick notes. My wife keeps a daily journal, so she used it to respond to various things that our daughter-in-law brought up in her email. Separately I wrote to her and got some things off my chest, while offering up the hope that we can make peace or at least get along better. Of course, she immediately seized upon a phrase in my letter where I thanked her for responding "at long last", which didn't go over well according to my son.  So, we'll see where it goes from here.

In more positive news, my wife and I went to our local library today and took out 11 books that we'll read and record on video for the grandchildren.  Then we'll post them on YouTube (with restricted viewing) so that they can watch them on their TV at home.  Should be fun.  Book number one is tomorrow, "Ten Big Toes and a Prince's Nose".  I'll report back on how it goes.


----------



## Debby (Jul 15, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> Since several of you were kind enough to offer your thoughts and opinions in this thread, I thought you might like an update.
> 
> Today I received a lengthy email from my daughter-in-law with a litany of grievances against us going back some five years.  What it points out is how the lack of communication when one feels slighted or has an issue with another person can lead to festering resentment and mistrust.
> 
> ...




You are absolutely right Bob.  I had the same experience with my mom except it was slights that she had felt for 20 years!  Things like when she would leave our place, we would say goodbye in the foyer and then when she was out on the porch we'd close the door instead of standing in the driveway waving her goodbye.  She never mentioned it, but it bugged her although not enough to ever bring it up and talk it out.  The other one that annoyed me a bit was that when she would drop in when the kids were really little and I wouldn't immediately call the children because Grandma was there.  But seriously, I also made a point of not calling them immediately because if I did, she'd completely ignore any discussion with me and I was starved for adult conversation.  After all, I've never had a wealth of friends and days on end with only toddlers to talk to, makes you cherish any adult who will talk to you instead of whining and asking for stuff and then crying!  But she never asked, we never talked it out and like you said, it festered.

It seems like this kind of thing always festers until the pressure is too much and then someone finally says something.  I have heard that talking it out can make it better.  That wasn't my experience although I tried repeatedly to work it out with her after she finally spewed all the angst of 20 years,  but I'm not everyone.  Good luck to you and your 'kids'.


----------



## Debby (Jul 15, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Wow Bob, I am surprised, pleasantly so. Perhaps your DIL is not completely intractable after all. Sad that she has a litany of grievances going back five years, but it is a positive step that she is interested in having you and your wife involved in your
> 
> grandchildren's lives. Expressing a desire for reconciliation is a huge plus also. I think the idea of you visiting  your son and grandson on a more neutral ground could well be a step in the right direction. Perhaps in time, she will feel sufficiently secure to
> 
> ...




Excellent advice Shalimar.


----------



## Marley (Aug 16, 2016)

I've typed and repeated twice on the same comment.....Wishing you and wife all the best in a thorny situation  :love_heart:


----------



## Marley (Aug 16, 2016)

I'm so happy for you and your wife.:love_heart:


----------



## Marley (Aug 16, 2016)

I feel for you and your wife. It's something I'm living with my youngest son. My son has lived in New Mexico for the past 11 yrs. His (mate) so I call, has made his life down right miserable. She posted a picture of her new boyfriend on FB. I thought looking at it, it's a joke, then it says, he is being domesticated. Son didn't know a thing about it. He has one biological daughter, and a step daughter he adores. Same with her that is her Daddy. Her biological father left the delivery room when she was born, never to be seen again. My son knew her when she was four yrs. old.She is 10yrs this month. The job he had didn't work out well, and this with a new boyfriend in the picture did it. I still keep in contact and there also on my FB the g-grandparents, and keep an open line for the mom. I want her to know I'm here, and she is my friend on my FB. Even though I've cried many tears about it. My son left, saying to her "Your A Cold Person." He got in the car and his little girl ran after him for one last hug. Hearing that really broke my heart. He's now living with me in Fl. Were getting child support payments set and ready to go. All changes of address. All I can offer in advice is keep an open line, to son, wife, children, even her parents. Right now I'm an Internet Bube (grandma):love_heart:


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 17, 2016)

I've got a DIL from hell.  And my family lives in the US so I only see them on my long annual trips.  My son and his wife are splitting up and his wife is being difficult about a trip that's been planned for years - oldest granddaughter who will be 12 next summer is supposed to spend 3 or 4 weeks on her own with us.  First DIL said she didn't want her to fly alone (I'd pay for a hand-holder for her) and we'd fly back with her.  She said she fears the plane would crash and her daughter would die alone (and her daughter heard this).  So son said he'd fly over with both the girls and stay a week, leaving the oldest one with us.  Now DIL is saying she doesn't want her to go.  

My son says he will have visitation rights (he's in the process of moving out now) and that a judge can order her to let them fly here.  I have a feeling DIL is going make things difficult.  But her oldest daughter and I are close and she has been looking forward to her trip to see Nana in Scotland for years.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

Marley said:


> I've typed and repeated twice on the same comment.....Wishing you and wife all the best in a thorny situation  :love_heart:



Thanks Marley, much appreciated. This is not an easy situation.


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 17, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> Thanks Marley, much appreciated. This is not an easy situation.



Didn't you say you were planning a trip in the near future to the UK and will visit the family?  And solid plans yet?


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

So, we wrote back to our DIL and about two weeks ago got a reply in which she said that she was cutting off direct contact with us. DIL stated that since she and our son would be divorcing at some point, she didn't see the point of trying to keep a relationship with us. Also made it clear that the kids are never coming to the states without her. If at some point they do come over, she'll accompany them with our son and once here, she'll go off on her own while we vacation with them. So that essentially means it will be years before we see them over here, forcing us to travel to the UK if we want to visit, and only where she designates.

In the interim she's set up a FB page for the kids and set the privacy such that only family and some close friends can see the pictures, so at least we're getting that. 

The idea I had mentioned in a prior post about recording stories for them on video has gone over big time! Each recording is about 4-7 minutes in length and we focus the camera on the book so that the kids can see the pictures. We've been uploading these to YouTube but made them "unlisted" so that only our son can access them since he's the only one with the link. I put them all in a playlist so the stories are all in one spot. The reaction from the kids has been great. We have a bunch of books that we're about to record. Our local library is great with a wonderful collection of stories for children.

So, I guess we'll be going to England next year, but I think we'll combine it with a much larger trip, perhaps to some other destination like Iceland or perhaps Switzerland. I don't see the DIL situation getting any better and at least we now know that she has no desire to make things better. It's sad, but that's the reality.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> Didn't you say you were planning a trip in the near future to the UK and will visit the family?  And solid plans yet?



We'd been trying to get my son and our grandson to visit us here, but as you'll see in something I just posted, that's not happening. Our DIL wants us to vacation over in the UK, specifically at Centre Parcs in Cumbria (Whinfell Forest). We'll probably go over next year and vacation with our son and the kids when they're out of school.


----------



## bluebreezes (Aug 17, 2016)

Bob, I truly believe mysterious change of hearts can happen and that the way it is today may not be this way forever. You never know when something she experiences or that someone says to her melts her frozen heart and opens doors of forgiveness.


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 17, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> So, we wrote back to our DIL and about two weeks ago got a reply in which she said that she was cutting off direct contact with us. DIL stated that since she and our son would be divorcing at some point, she didn't see the point of trying to keep a relationship with us. Also made it clear that the kids are never coming to the states without her. If at some point they do come over, she'll accompany them with our son and once here, she'll go off on her own while we vacation with them. So that essentially means it will be years before we see them over here, forcing us to travel to the UK if we want to visit, and only where she designates.
> 
> In the interim she's set up a FB page for the kids and set the privacy such that only family and some close friends can see the pictures, so at least we're getting that.
> 
> ...



I hope DIL realizes what the kids are missing by not having contact with you.  

The youtube stories is a great idea.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

bluebreezes said:


> Bob, I truly believe mysterious change of hearts can happen and that the way it is today may not be this way forever. You never know when something she experiences or that someone says to her melts her frozen heart and opens doors of forgiveness.



We certainly hope that's true. Supposedly she's going to seek help for ongoing depression and anxiety issues starting in September, so perhaps the therapist will raise the issue of our relationship with her during the course of treatment.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> I hope DIL realizes what the kids are missing by not having contact with you.
> 
> The youtube stories is a great idea.



For now it's going to be video (which they finally seem to be getting into) until we go over to visit. I still hope at some point to take a trip with my grandson and son up to Scotland when he's older. I think that would be a blast. Then we'd do something similar with our granddaughter.


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 17, 2016)

How old are your grandkids now, Bob?

Mine are 6 and 11.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 17, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> How old are your grandkids now, Bob?
> 
> Mine are 6 and 11.



Our grandson turned 5 in April and our granddaughter turned 3 in March. They just got back from holiday in Scotland where their other grandparents have a caravan.


----------



## Bobw235 (Aug 26, 2016)

For those who might be dealing with the situation we're in (young grandchildren living far away), I am pleased to report just how effective our story telling has been in terms of connecting with them. We record these on video and then post them to YouTube as "unlisted". My son has the links to the stories. He says they've been a big hit with the kids (ages 3 and 5) each night as an alternative to him always doing the reading. It was so easy to set this up on YouTube and this way the kids can even watch the stories on their "smart" TV which connects to the internet.

Today my wife and I spent about an hour in the local library picking out 21 new stories. As a way of building some anticipation for the kids, I took a photo of each book, then created a brief (3 minute) slide show and through that up on YouTube. Maybe you'll see a title here you'd like to read to your own grandchildren. We keep looking for ways to build that connection to them even though we're a few thousand miles away.  




My next big project will be to create a photo book for each of them, taking photos from various family members, including ones captured by their late, great grandfather, who passed away in December. They never got to know him, but they will know him via his photos.


----------



## WheatenLover (Aug 26, 2016)

The way you are handling this is brilliant! I am so impressed!


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 27, 2016)

That is such a wonderful idea, Bob!!


----------



## Brookswood (Aug 29, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> She said she fears the plane would crash and her daughter would die alone (and her daughter heard this). .



Tell your son to get an experienced bull-dog of a lawyer.  I  know several men who were cheated out of time with their kids because of settlement phraseology that could be interpreted to their detriment.  For example, one guy had it in the child care plan that the ex-wife had to 'accommodate his visits'.  What does that mean?  Well it meant that if she moved to *Outer Mongolia*, she still had to make the children available when he flew there to see them. :-(    So, she moved across country, very far away.  One weekend a month he left work on Friday, raced  to the airport and flew across the continent to see his kids. Then Sunday afternoon, he flew back.  Not a great accommodation, but apparently legal under the plan.


----------



## Ameriscot (Aug 29, 2016)

Brookswood said:


> Tell your son to get an experienced bull-dog of a lawyer.  I  know several men who were cheated out of time with their kids because of settlement phraseology that could be interpreted to their detriment.  For example, one guy had it in the child care plan that the ex-wife had to 'accommodate his visits'.  What does that mean?  Well it meant that if she moved to *Outer Mongolia*, she still had to make the children available when he flew there to see them. :-(    So, she moved across country, very far away.  One weekend a month he left work on Friday, raced  to the airport and flew across the continent to see his kids. Then Sunday afternoon, he flew back.  Not a great accommodation, but apparently legal under the plan.



Yes, I'm wondering if she can be forced to allow my son to bring their daughters over here for a visit.


----------



## Brookswood (Aug 29, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, I'm wondering if she can be forced to allow my son to bring their daughters over here for a visit.




I don't know the law, but it seems to me that needs to be spelled out in the Child Custody agreement, including overseas visits, time limits on them etc. 

FWIW, my friend had a much easier time seeing his kids when his ex-wife found a new boyfriend she was excited about.   She even flew the kids to see him for a few weeks so she could take a trip with the new BF.  So, the quicker he gets her back into circulation and her 'needs' met, the better off he might be.


----------

