# Emotional/Psychological Abuse



## Ronni (Dec 27, 2020)

Because I’ve spoken here a few times about being an abuse survivor, and also because I tend to get irritated when people minimize both the fact, and effects of emotional abuse on victims, I thought I’d start a thread about it to help educate those who aren’t informed.

Victims of Emotional Abuse
 “While staying in an abusive relationship the victim uses coping strategies. These coping strategies tend to be self-protective in nature; they include denial, minimization, addictions, arguing, defensiveness, rationalization, compliance, detachment, and dissociation.


Because abusive behavior tends to be cyclical and inconsistent, the victim learns to wait it out over time. Victims learn to block out abusive events, which is much easier to do with emotional abuse because it is so elusive. The victim may not even realize abuse is happening.

Just like drug addiction or alcoholism is progressive disease, abuse is a progressive disease as well. This is not to say that emotional abuse will progress to physical abuse, but that the occurrences of abuse will increase, and the existence of chronic disrespect and even cruelty will become commonplace in the relationship. The relationship will end up being a system, where the abuser does whatever the hell he or she wants and the victims become programmed to cope with it in some way. Victims may comply, numb out, take anti-depressants, live in a detached state of being, pretend that everythings fine, etc. Sometimes in family systems you hear of the scapegoat, the golden child, the family mascot, etc. These are examples of how children can act out their unspoken hurts within their dysfunctional family system.

Victims are notorious for being conditioned to walk on eggshells in the relationship in order to try to prevent or minimize any future occurrences of upsetting the abuser; this rarely works, and when it does, its only temporary. But there is great damage caused to the person who does the walking on eggshells. Victims will slowly lose their sense of self because they are being continually conditioned to only focus outside of themselves. They have learned to be hyper-vigilant to the feelings and reactions of others and have stopped focusing on their own internal feelings. Their feelings and thoughts are invalidated so often that victims stop listening to their own inner voices. This causes victims to become personal shells of who they really are.


Victims also tend to be compassionate themselves and will offer empathy and forgiveness to their abusers, and will put the matter in the past each time an abusive event occurs. Usually, it is the victims strengths and assets that keep him or her in the relationship; traits such as, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, long-suffering, self-control, stick-to-it-iveness, loyalty, etc. While these are all awesome character traits, an abuser will use them to his or her advantage.”


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## Rosemarie (Dec 27, 2020)

Who are you aiming this thread at? Those who have been victims of abuse or those who try to minimise it?
As a victim myself, I would add something else. Victims have a lot of anger inside them.....anger at the treatment they have received.....anger at the way they had no choice but to put up with it...anger at the justice system which does not take into account the years of mis-treatment a woman has put up with before she finally snaps and commits murder.
That anger needs an outlet.....I'm just waiting for some low life to give me an opportunity to let loose all my pent-up fury!


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## Ronni (Dec 27, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> Who are you aiming this thread at? Those who have been victims of abuse or those who try to minimise it?
> As a victim myself, I would add something else. Victims have a lot of anger inside them.....anger at the treatment they have received.....anger at the way they had no choice but to put up with it...anger at the justice system which does not take into account the years of mis-treatment a woman has put up with before she finally snaps and commits murder.
> That anger needs an outlet.....I'm just waiting for some low life to give me an opportunity to let loose all my pent-up fury!


@Rosemarie its right there in my first paragraph...._”I tend to get irritated when people minimize both the fact, and effects of emotional abuse on victims, I thought I’d start a thread about it to help educate those who aren’t informed.”_

Yeah, I really get the anger. It was something I had to work through in the early stages of my recovery. And I STILL get angry, but it’s not directed towards my a user any more. I’ve become indifferent to him....and that’s relatively easy to do these days because there’s been no contact between us, and between the kids and him, for years.

These says my anger is directed at those who minimize the fact of abuse, at a society at large who still blames the woman “for putting up with it.”

When you’ve been groomed over time, conditioned, bit by tiny bit, to accept the treatment through subtle, covert and heinous means and machinations, “putting up with it” isn’t even on a victim’s radar. It just IS. It’s a victim’s normal.


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## applecruncher (Dec 27, 2020)

Emotional/psychological abuse can be as bad or worse than physical abuse.

As kids we never knew what mood my father was gonna be in. Many dinners were tense and we weren't allowed to talk at all.  Then sometimes he'd be jovial but make comments out of the side of his mouth. I loved the pleasantry when we had visitors.

Outsiders usually saw the 'nice guy' in a shirt & tie at church.


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## Ronni (Dec 27, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Emotional/psychological abuse can be as bad or worse than physical abuse.
> 
> As kids we never knew what mood my father was gonna be in. Many dinners were tense and we weren't allowed to talk at all.  Then sometimes he'd be jovial but make comments out of the side of his mouth. I loved the pleasantry when we had visitors.
> 
> Outsiders usually saw the 'nice guy' in a shirt & tie at church.


Absolutely. My ex was charming, even charismatic, which is how he reeled me in. My female friends at the time all swooned over him and told me how lucky I was to be loved by such a wonderful and caring man who obviously cherished me. I was deeply in love.

There were a couple red flags, which because of my naïveté and limited romantic experience, I didn’t recognize as such believing I’d provoked it...the angry outburst, snide comment, self-absorption, emotional distance.

 It wasn’t till after the birth of our first child that the abuse really ramped up. But hindsight,  aided by a wealth of education and therapy and group counseling/support,  I realize that I’d been being groomed and conditioned since before we were married, to accept his behavior as normal and my reactions as over-reaction, hyper sensitivity or just outright delusion.


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## applecruncher (Dec 27, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Absolutely. My ex was charming, even charismatic, which is how he reeled me in. My female friends at the time all swooned over him and told me how lucky I was to be loved by such a wonderful and caring man who obviously cherished me. I was deeply in love.


Dad had some good qualities (a few) but he was a handsome charming bully.

Superb physical shape. Think of Muhammad Ali in his prime.


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## oldman (Dec 27, 2020)

I’m sorry when I learn of people who had to tolerate being emotionally, physically, sexually or any type of abuse. I lived the opposite life. My parents seldom raised their voices and us kids were certainly never abused in any way, shape or form. My dad made his career in the Army, but he always tried reasoning before handing out any discipline, which mostly consisted of being grounded or losing a privilege.

There was a time or two that I really messed up and he went from 0-80 in about 2.2 seconds


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## Rosemarie (Dec 27, 2020)

I was in a womens refuge for a while after I finally left my husband. In my initial interview, I was asked,'Why did you marry him?' I replied 'To get away from my parents'. The woman responded 'I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that'. That surprised me but it may indicate that many of the victims  have actually been abused since childhood and have almost become accustomed to it.
Looking back, I think my husband was testing the boundaries, to see what he could get away with. If only I had realised that and declared, 'I'm not putting up with this!'
I didn't realise just how big a problem domestic abuse is until I was in the refuge. It was always full.
Why are so many men abusive towards their partners?


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## Pepper (Dec 27, 2020)

"I was asked,'Why did you marry him?' I replied 'To get away from my parents'. The woman responded 'I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that'. That surprised me but it may indicate that many of the victims have actually been abused since childhood and have almost become accustomed to it."  @Rosemarie 

Astute.  You deserved better.  You're a strong woman.


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## Remy (Dec 27, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Emotional/psychological abuse can be as bad or worse than physical abuse.
> 
> As kids we never knew what mood my father was gonna be in. Many dinners were tense and we weren't allowed to talk at all.  Then sometimes he'd be jovial but make comments out of the side of his mouth. I loved the pleasantry when we had visitors.
> 
> Outsiders usually saw the 'nice guy' in a shirt & tie at church.


I'm so sorry applecruncher. You were a child, this makes it so hard.


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## Remy (Dec 27, 2020)

My mother was rarely physically abusive. She was verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive when her rages started. She also isolated me as a child and treated me like a possession. Something I didn't even realize until well into adulthood. Isolating me from my stepfather's family was one of the worst things she did. She even isolated my stepfather from his family and friends. This is something abusers do I have learned. 

I've taken the ACE score online, mine is 7. Some have worse of coarse. I think the thing that got me was my resiliency score. I've read it several times and the only one I can claim is the "there were rules in the house and you were expected to follow them." I can't find one other that is true for me. I know these are just things online but there could be some truth to them. 

I also realize now that I just shut down when she raged at me. And internalized it all. I was over 30 when I told anyone, a co-worker, about my mother's behavior.


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## hollydolly (Dec 27, 2020)

Remy said:


> My mother was rarely physically abusive. She was verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive when her rages started. She also isolated me as a child and treated me like a possession. Something I didn't even realize until well into adulthood. Isolating me from my stepfather's family was one of the worst things she did. She even isolated my stepfather from his family and friends. This is something abusers do I have learned.
> 
> I've taken the ACE score online, mine is 7. Some have worse of coarse. I think the thing that got me was my resiliency score. I've read it several times and the only one I can claim is the "there were rules in the house and you were expected to follow them." I can't find one other that is true for me. I know these are just things online but there could be some truth to them.
> 
> I also realize now that I just shut down when she raged at me. And internalized it all. I was over 30 when I told anyone, a co-worker, about my mother's behavior.


I've just taken the ACE test....

Your ACE score is *10*​


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## Pepper (Dec 27, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Dad had some good qualities (a few) but he was a handsome charming bully.
> 
> Superb physical shape. Think of Muhammad Ali in his prime.


Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee.


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## applecruncher (Dec 27, 2020)

Also folks, in the 1950s women (especially minority women) had few opportunities to make and keep their own money. If they had a husband he usually controlled everything.

Even educated women often only got housecleaning jobs IF their husbands allowed them to work. Dad used to give Mom the 3rd degree if she wore lipstick to work or to the store.


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## Knight (Dec 27, 2020)

A worthwhile thread for people like me that were never exposed to or saw that as the life some have. Never to old to learn!

I have  questions about this from your post Ronni

Quote
"But hindsight, aided by a wealth of education and therapy and group counseling/support, I realize that I’d been being groomed and conditioned since before we were married, to accept his behavior as normal and my reactions as over-reaction, hyper sensitivity or just outright delusion."

When did you realize you were being groomed and conditioned?
What resources did you look for to get away?
Were there resources where you lived?
What made you realize the life you were leading wasn't right? 
What do you think your reaction would be if your ex moved into your neighborhood?


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## Remy (Dec 27, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I've just taken the ACE test....
> 
> Your ACE score is *10*​


hollydolly, I'm so sorry.


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## hollydolly (Dec 27, 2020)

Remy said:


> hollydolly, I'm so sorry.


thanks Remy... a little of my story has been told on this forum over the years. I've never gone into detail in any great length, and I won't today... but for the snippets I have told, people get to know enough of the type of life I've had, not just my childhood either... I have no intention of telling my tale here, it would take reams... and perhaps to many unbelievable...

..suffice to say I felt when I took the ACE test despite getting the highest score ( and of course this is one test you do NOT want the highest score).. that , there should have been many more questions.. because I probably could have answered in the affirmative to them all..,

I absolutely lived the life and _more _written so eloquently and factually by @Ronni  .. and have the exact same emotions, and reactions she wrote that victims feel... in fact that's the first time I've seen that written down in the way a victim feels or felt,  above and beyond the feeling of anger or abandonment  and fear, which is what is usually written about us as victims and  survivors.

I'm so sorry you were a victim too @Remy... ...


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## Damaged Goods (Dec 27, 2020)

Before I was online, I never realized how many "Mommie Dearest" experiences existed in reality.  I mean, our mothers were our nurturers, our primary protectors.  They'd give their lives for us.  That was certainly my reality.

But reading multiple discussion groups and Usenet, I became disillusioned.

How can someone go thru the burden of carrying someone for nine months, clean them, feed them, wipe their dirty asses without loving them?  

But that's what I learned in story-after-story.


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## MarciKS (Dec 27, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Because I’ve spoken here a few times about being an abuse survivor, and also because I tend to get irritated when people minimize both the fact, and effects of emotional abuse on victims, I thought I’d start a thread about it to help educate those who aren’t informed.
> 
> Victims of Emotional Abuse
> “While staying in an abusive relationship the victim uses coping strategies. These coping strategies tend to be self-protective in nature; they include denial, minimization, addictions, arguing, defensiveness, rationalization, compliance, detachment, and dissociation.
> ...


It sucks when you live with it every day for 50 some years. Survival mode every day of your life is stressful.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 27, 2020)

I know this doesn’t help one single bit...but...my heart surely goes out to you guys. I have been fortunate both in childhood and adult life to have never been subjected to something like this but I sure am saying prayers for those of you who have been, or maybe still are. Thank you for shining a light on the subject and opening my eyes. And I also want to say how proud I am of you who have been through this and got out!  Wow, how strong you must be. Hope you are as proud of yourselves as I am


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## Rosemarie (Dec 27, 2020)

Pepper said:


> "I was asked,'Why did you marry him?' I replied 'To get away from my parents'. The woman responded 'I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that'. That surprised me but it may indicate that many of the victims have actually been abused since childhood and have almost become accustomed to it."  @Rosemarie
> 
> Astute.  You deserved better.  You're a strong woman.


Thank you. I was so lacking in self-esteem that I was flattered that anyone wanted to marry me!


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## Ruthanne (Dec 28, 2020)

I am a survivor of some forms of abuse and just want to say we don't all fit into a general pattern of reactions to it.  I really dislike generalizations because everyone, myself very much included, is an individual and cope in many different ways--some ways are positive, too!  There are many, many good things we do, too.  

I don't consider myself a victim.  I have considered myself a good person who gave lots of love and understanding to some people who did not know how to be any other way.  I know I helped them and never considered that they didn't deserve love or help, too.   I did put an end to my relationships in order to improve my *own* life and that I did for a good deal of years.


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## MarciKS (Dec 28, 2020)

Physical abuse heals and leaves a scar. Emotional abuse stays with you forever and can rear it's ugly head at any time. It's difficult to connect to people when you've been emotionally abused your whole life.


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## katlupe (Dec 28, 2020)

I didn't realize I was in an emotional abusive relationship with my husband until I left. I just knew I had to leave. It is hard to explain. Everyone was shocked when I left him and moved out. Some of my close friends online (had no friends in person) said afterwards they knew I was not happy. I felt trapped for such a long time. I didn't consider it abuse, but after reading some things on it, I think it was. His friends and family feel sorry for him and think I was mean to him by leaving. Abuse takes many forms.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 28, 2020)

To me emotional abuse is nothing but a cold war. Most, not all are smart enough not to engage physically although sometimes I wish they would because I could end their behavior quickly and decisively. But that's what makes it more dangerous or damaging especially if the abuser is constantly testing their limits. Best not to engage, debate or negotiate.

But that means you have to let them go off on yet another tirade. Many say try to avoid lawyers when it comes to family or marriage but in effect I guess that's turning a cold war hot.

Right now dealing with a lifetime adult alkie plus and estate in which the parent left no will. Just having a different strategy or not showing enthusiam but still ok with their ideas sets them off into lecture & tirade mode. Even 'calm' conversations are contentious because they're testing to see what I'm going to do. They complained the parent didn't leave enough money before the funeral and was ticked I would not fund hgtv renovations for house sale among other things. In our case which actually would be cleaner a legal resolution is the only thing that will close the estate and cut ties. But that's a hot war.


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## applecruncher (Dec 28, 2020)

btw my father was also phycally abusive to my mother and older brother, but I didn't get into all that because this thread focuses on emotional and psychological abuse.


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## Shalimar (Dec 28, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> To me emotional abuse is nothing but a cold war. Most, not all are smart enough not to engage physically although sometimes I wish they would because I could end their behavior quickly and decisively. But that's what makes it more dangerous or damaging especially if the abuser is constantly testing their limits. Best not to engage, debate or negotiate.
> 
> But that means you have to let them go off on yet another tirade. Many say try to avoid lawyers when it comes to family or marriage but in effect I guess that's turning a cold war hot.
> 
> Right now dealing with a lifetime adult alkie plus and estate in which the parent left no will. Just having a different strategy or not showing enthusiam but still ok with their ideas sets them off into lecture & tirade mode. Even 'calm' conversations are contentious because they're testing to see what I'm going to do. They complained the parent didn't leave enough money before the funeral and was ticked I would not fund hgtv renovations for house sale among other things. In our case which actually would be cleaner a legal resolution is the only thing that will close the estate and cut ties. But that's a hot war.


  I am so sorry you are in the middle of this horribly toxic situation, but I commend your handling of it. Realistically, refusing to engage with their abuse buys limited relief, but the alternative is having one’s life turned upside down. Takes a strong person with a cool head on their shoulders to cope with this craziness. I salute you. Please keep us informed re the status of the Cold War.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 28, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> Who are you aiming this thread at? Those who have been victims of abuse or those who try to minimise it?
> As a victim myself, I would add something else. Victims have a lot of anger inside them.....anger at the treatment they have received.....anger at the way they had no choice but to put up with it...anger at the justice system which does not take into account the years of mis-treatment a woman has put up with before she finally snaps and commits murder.
> That anger needs an outlet.....I'm just waiting for some low life to give me an opportunity to let loose all my pent-up fury!


I so agree.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 28, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I was in a womens refuge for a while after I finally left my husband. In my initial interview, I was asked,'Why did you marry him?' I replied 'To get away from my parents'. The woman responded 'I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that'. That surprised me but it may indicate that many of the victims  have actually been abused since childhood and have almost become accustomed to it.
> Looking back, I think my husband was testing the boundaries, to see what he could get away with. If only I had realised that and declared, 'I'm not putting up with this!'
> I didn't realise just how big a problem domestic abuse is until I was in the refuge. It was always full.
> Why are so many men abusive towards their partners?


That’s what my therapist said, that you become accustomed to being treated a certain way, abused, and end up choosing the same personality type again and again.  Not only in marriage but in friendships and, to a certain extent, you teach your children to take advantage.  

There is a lot to be said for the old saying “you made your bed, now you have to lie on it.”


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 28, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I've just taken the ACE test....
> 
> Your ACE score is *10*​


What is the ACE?


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## Rosemarie (Dec 28, 2020)

I think we still need to address the question of why so many men are abusive. I know that alcohol plays a part. Alcohol makes many men lose control and become violent. They tend to lash out at the nearest person and that is so often their partners. 
Emotional abuse is different. It is usually cold and deliberate.
I know we wanted to keep this non-personal but it's difficult to discuss it without mentioning our own experiences. In my husbands case, I'm sure it was about control. He felt power from causing upset. Sounds so pathetic now!


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## hollydolly (Dec 28, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What is the ACE?


https://www.npr.org/sections/health...e-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean


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## Rosemarie (Dec 28, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> That’s what my therapist said, that you become accustomed to being treated a certain way, abused, and end up choosing the same personality type again and again.  Not only in marriage but in friendships and, to a certain extent, you teach your children to take advantage.
> 
> There is a lot to be said for the old saying “you made your bed, now you have to lie on it.”


My mother was emotionally abusive. It's only now that I'm older that I can see the similarities in their personalities.


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## hollydolly (Dec 28, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I think we still need to address the question of why so many men are abusive. I know that alcohol plays a part. Alcohol makes many men lose control and become violent. They tend to lash out at the nearest person and that is so often their partners.
> Emotional abuse is different. It is usually cold and deliberate.
> I know we wanted to keep this non-personal but it's difficult to discuss it without mentioning our own experiences. In my husbands case, I'm sure it was about control. He felt power from causing upset. Sounds so pathetic now!


My father didn't even have the excuse of alcohol.. or drugs.. he was just a nasty evil  person...


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## MarciKS (Dec 28, 2020)

At least you guys can share your stories. Mine are too painful to rehash.


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## Shalimar (Dec 28, 2020)

Looking back, the emotional abuse left me with the most profound damage. Gaslighting, scapegoating, etc, cause a vulnerable person to doubt their own reality/sanity, and foster an often permanent disconnect from one‘s own centre of being. How many of us, decades later, still feel separated from our own bodies/minds? How do we truly belong anywhere when we are strangers in our own skin?


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 28, 2020)

I don't believe we understand how psychologically fragile we are. As an example, I don't believe men can be sent off to war, and then asked to lead a "normal" life, when they come home. Emotional trauma, no matter where it comes from is devastating. You can see the unrelenting confusion, anger, anxiety , and fear in the above posts. It leads to avoiding others, not trusting anyone, and hyper-vigilantism. When we all crave love and acceptance, why is there so much cruelty in our lives.


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## Shalimar (Dec 28, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I don't believe we understand how psychologically fragile we are. As an example, I don't believe men can be sent off to war, and then asked to lead a "normal" life, when they come home. Emotional trauma, no matter where it comes from is devastating. You can see the unrelenting confusion, anger, anxiety , and fear in the above posts. It leads to avoiding others, not trusting anyone, and hyper-vigilantism. When we all crave love and acceptance, why is there so much cruelty in our lives.


  QFT


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## applecruncher (Dec 28, 2020)

My father was not a drinker, I can only remember him sipping a beer at a picnic. It looked strange.  We didn't have alcohol in the house. 
And he was a WWII veteran.
But he tried to control everything and everybody.


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## Shalimar (Dec 28, 2020)

Sadly, IMHO, not everyone wants love and acceptance. For a variety of reasons, pathological in nature, some people seek to control, manipulate, and emotionally damage others. Devastating results can occur, particularly in children. Are the majority of such people suffering from mental disorders?  Probably. Are some of them purely evil? Definitely. Professional or not, I have to dig deep to find any compassion for such individuals. The majority of them prove resistant to treatment and repeat their behaviour until the end of life.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 28, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> https://www.npr.org/sections/health...e-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean


Thanks


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## win231 (Dec 28, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Physical abuse heals and leaves a scar. Emotional abuse stays with you forever and can rear it's ugly head at any time. It's difficult to connect to people when you've been emotionally abused your whole life.


In my experience, physical abuse _creates _emotional abuse that stays with you forever.


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## Irwin (Dec 28, 2020)

I would guess that a lot of the abusers were also abused when they were younger and never learned how to treat people. That's not to excuse their behavior, by any means, but I think that explains it. And some of them are just sociopaths.


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## Gaer (Dec 28, 2020)

It's kind of comforting,even after all these years, that others have gone through the same sbuse as me and my children.  
Back then, we had no "shelters" to protect us.  (first marriage)
No, It doesn't have to stay with you forever.  It takes a long, long time to lift yourself up and be "you" again, but I have forgiven him 
and have no association with him.  To keep remembering this pain is to keep myself as a victim.  I've given my children the tools mentally and emotionally to let it all go.  He is in their life only perspectively and superficially.


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## Shalimar (Dec 28, 2020)

Congratulations on your ability to transcend your experience. I applaud you, but sadly not everyone is able to do so, most carry the scars forever. The human psyche can only sustain  so much damage and return to normal. Severe and prolonged abuse, particularly childhood onset,

leaves an indelible stain on the hearts and minds/souls of those who fought for their safety and sanity in the emotional boneyards of childhood and beyond. For many of them, forgetting is not possible, but they strive to break those bonds that would render them victims once again. Such are the strong,

the stubborn, the brave, the resilient, determined to survive regardless of wounds,  never surrendering humanity and becoming that what almost destroyed them. In some ways broken, but

unbowed,  and reaching out to comfort brothers and sisters in a club no one wants to join. How inspiring is that? These abuse threads posted recently, have inspired me greatly. Such honesty, love and compassion shared in the time of plague. People, I love you, honour you, you are the embodiment of the triumph  of the human spirit.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 28, 2020)

Sometimes the abuser is nothing but a bully and has become dependent on those who tolerate their outburst. But as noted tolerate too much it amounts to enabling. I don't what these people went through in the past they're in the future and abusees didn't cause it but now were back to being bullies.I've seen it in the workplace as well bosses with hair triggers, insults and aggressive attitudes towards many.

The creepiest and scariest part is what many here have noted and that is they are charming and can fool others not targets of their rage. Social paths and many a serial killer or conman have those traits/abilities as well-fool others. That also tells me they know they should watch their behavior so they do know or realize what they are doing.

Here the alkie family has hit the end of his rope with longtime and/or childhood friends. They see through him. They moved on. Other friends matured and gave up the party life for career, marriage, house,mortgage etc he has not. They know the real deal, they might not admit it but especially with couples the spouses if not friends see right through conman, addict, alkie etc.  His peer group has changed alot over the decade especially. His best friend is half his age and not wise enough to see through him YET but is still past and still passing them maturity wise. As a 50 plus year old he frequently sounds like a teenager trying to act like an adult especially when trying to explain away his unemployment issues(presents as a businessman which is crock because a bankruptcy and failed business). Potential employers apparently see right through him because more than once he bragged he had a job all but wrapped up in a bow.


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## MarciKS (Dec 28, 2020)

Narcissists are horrible people to be around. They can do a lot of damage in very little time.


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## Ronni (Dec 28, 2020)

Knight said:


> A worthwhile thread for people like me that were never exposed to or saw that as the life some have. Never to old to learn!
> 
> I have  questions about this from your post Ronni
> 
> ...


@Knight thanks for your thoughtful questions.  My answers won't be brief.  Abuse is a complex and multi layered subject and there is just no way to shorthand the answers without doing a disservice to your interest.  Please don't hesitate to ask if there's more you want to know. 

_When did I realize I was being groomed and conditioned?_  I was married to the man for 30 years.  It wasn't till the very end of our marriage that I began to realize how early on in our relationship I'd been being conditioned.  But because of my own naïveté and lack of romantic experience, I had no clue all that time, and it wasn't till I escaped the relationship, and immersed myself in a thorough education about abuse that fully connected with his machinations and how soon it began. 

_What resources did you look for to get away?_  I didn't, other than staying closely connected with an online support group for abused women.   I was terrified because I felt very much alone, but I had been so conditioned to NEVER involve the police in our issues, to NEVER seek counseling, to NEVER betray my husband, that even though I was leaving I was still largely operating under those strictures. 

_Were there resources where you lived? _ Not as far as I know, but again, I was so terrified of involving any other entity that I didn't really look for them, not until way after I had escaped the relationship.

_What made you realize the life you were leading wasn't right?_ That's actually a pretty funny story.  I was 20 years in to the relationship, still believing that I wasn't doing right, that the things that were wrong with the relationship were my fault, that I needed to try harder, do more, be better etc.  I went online looking for marital advice, and in the course of that search stumbled upon an online support group for abused women.  I didn't KNOW that it was for abused women, I was barely computer literate back then and didn't really have a clue what I was doing, how to search, etc.  But I happened upon this site, which at first glance seemed to be an "advice to the lovelorn" type forum.  I didn't register on the site, just lurked and read, and was initially gratified to realize that other women besides me seemed to be searching too.  It took quite a bit for it to begin sinking in that hey, this wasn't a site for how to make one's marriage work better, this was a site for abused women.  Wait, what????  Me?  Abused?  How could that be, he didn't hit me or rough me up (not up to that point anyway, that came later) so how could he be abusive? I was confused, and felt like I was betraying my husband to even BE there, but nonetheless was drawn back again and again.  Over time (I'm guessing 6 months or so) I began to realize that other women were experiencing what I was experiencing, and it wasn't that we were BAD at marriage, or relationships.  It was a pivotal moment in my life. 

You have to understand, I had been so thoroughly conditioned to believe so little of myself that I spent many years believing that I was all the things that I had been told I was, things that made me feel inadequate, ugly in body and spirit, semi-literate, ignorant, sub human and I was lucky indeed that he was willing to teach me to do right.  I lived with the abuse, the control, domination and intimidation for 30+ years.   I became suicidal, believing that I was of no use to anyone, a lost cause.  I thank the Gods that I never acted on that.  If I hadn't stumbled upon that abuse forum, I honestly don't know where I would be right now, if I'd even still be alive.

The most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life was to leave my husband.  By the time I was 21 I'd traveled to and across three continents, working my way around,  completely alone, fearless in my pursuit to travel and see the world and to live life to the fullest.  I was no shrinking violet!  And I believe that because I wasn't, I presented a unique challenge to the man who eventually became my husband. 

_What do you think your reaction would be if your ex moved into your neighborhood?_  Indifference.  He has no power over me anymore.  By the time I realized I had to leave him, at that moment I transitioned from Victim to Survivor.  And I've been a survivor ever since.  He can't hurt me anymore, emotionally or otherwise.  The wounds he inflicted on me were open and seeping for a long time.  Education in the subject of abuse and Personality Types, some counseling, a lot of group therapy, and immersing myself in activities that increased my self-esteem and confidence worked wonders for me.  I am no longer the person I was when I was with him, and the person I am now is armed to the teeth with the tools I need to combat whatever he might attempt to throw at me. 

He's a Cluster B Personality.  Heavy on the Narcissistic, Histrionic, Antisocial.  With a bit of Cluster A thrown in there, specifically Schizotypal. 

They are so easy for me to spot now.  Looking back on my history with man, it's hard to believe sometimes that I was taken in that thoroughly.  But rather than being down on myself for that ( I used to be, a LOT) I've come to realize that he was just THAT GOOD at his manipulations. 

Since our divorce, he's had a string of women, all of them taken in by him to the point that he has been supported by them financially, just as I did till I left.  It's that charm and charisma.  It works on the uninitiated. 

.


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## Knight (Dec 28, 2020)

Thank you for your explanation. I think marrying young & sharing life's experiences with a partner I truly love even though we were 20 & 17 at the time & only 3 months into getting to know each other. 

I took that ACE test & scored a 1 I think that must be the basis for me not understanding or relating to mental abuse. 

Thanks again. I hope others like me have a better understanding of how mental is as harmful if not more so than physical abuse. I say that because mental isn't visible but physical is.


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## win231 (Dec 28, 2020)

I never heard of an ACE test, so I took it out of curiosity.  I scored 3.


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## Ronni (Dec 28, 2020)

Knight said:


> Thank you for your explanation. I think marrying young & sharing life's experiences with a partner I truly love even though we were 20 & 17 at the time & only 3 months into getting to know each other.
> 
> I took that ACE test & scored a 1 I think that must be the basis for me not understanding or relating to mental abuse.
> 
> Thanks again. I hope others like me have a better understanding of how mental is as harmful if not more so than physical abuse. I say that because mental isn't visible but physical is.


You’re so right. When I began to grasp what was happening I wished that he would actually physically abuse me because at least then I’d have bruises and broken bones as actual evidence of the abuse. To say I was being abused , when all others saw was this charming and jovial man, was a huge disconnect for them.

Of course when I finally decided to leave is when the physical abuse started, and the threats, to me and to my kids if they left with me. I could deal with the physical threats. The threats to separate me from my children were the most difficult to bear.


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## RadishRose (Dec 28, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Narcissists are horrible people to be around. They can do a lot of damage in very little time.


I have another impression of narcissists besides being harmful. I think they're only as harmful as they're allowed to be.

 They seem very weak and quite easily shattered by forcefully voiced criticism. Of all the aberrations, narcissism seems to be the most easily dealt with, or the most fragile. JMO


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## Keesha (Dec 28, 2020)

Mine is too unbelievable and painful to even discuss so I’m not going to. My heart  goes out to all those who share this type of insanity.


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## Rosemarie (Dec 29, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> I have another impression of narcissists besides being harmful. I think they're only as harmful as they're allowed to be.
> 
> They seem very weak and quite easily shattered by forcefully voiced criticism. Of all the aberrations, narcissism seems to be the most easily dealt with, or the most fragile. JMO


You're absolutely right. I am more intelligent and better educated than my husband. I think a lot of his bullying was caused by his feelings of inferiority. Not making excuses of course. I was able to fight back with words, logic and sheer superiority, but it added to the stress. 
It's no wonder I have a problem with my nerves.


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> I have another impression of narcissists besides being harmful. I think they're only as harmful as they're allowed to be.
> 
> They seem very weak and quite easily shattered by forcefully voiced criticism. Of all the aberrations, narcissism seems to be the most easily dealt with, or the most fragile. JMO



I can easily recognize a narcissist now, and I act accordingly.  But marrying one, not knowing anything about narcissism other than as a reference to Greek mythology, and adding the systematic domination, control, abuse etc., to the mix, and I was clueless and really a perfect target for him.


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## RadishRose (Dec 29, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I can easily recognize a narcissist now, and I act accordingly.  But marrying one, not knowing anything about narcissism other than as a reference to Greek mythology, and adding the systematic domination, control, abuse etc., to the mix, and I was clueless and really a perfect target for him.


Sure, your ex had other, worse mental problems besides narcissism Ronni, or you'd have made cornmeal outta him!


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Sure, your ex had other, worse mental problems besides narcissism Ronni, or you'd have made cornmeal outta him!


That’s for sure!!


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## Shalimar (Dec 29, 2020)

Narcissism, like other apex Personality Disorders, resides on a sliding scale of severity. At its most toxic, a truly malignant narcissist leaves an escalating path of destruction in their wake, often culminating in physical violence, and, on occasion, murder. Seventy five percent are men, add positions of power and influence, cushioned by wealth, these “monsters”, highly intelligent, and charismatic, are very scary people.


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## Shalimar (Dec 29, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> Sometimes the abuser is nothing but a bully and has become dependent on those who tolerate their outburst. But as noted tolerate too much it amounts to enabling. I don't what these people went through in the past they're in the future and abusees didn't cause it but now were back to being bullies.I've seen it in the workplace as well bosses with hair triggers, insults and aggressive attitudes towards many.
> 
> The creepiest and scariest part is what many here have noted and that is they are charming and can fool others not targets of their rage. Social paths and many a serial killer or conman have those traits/abilities as well-fool others. That also tells me they know they should watch their behavior so they do know or realize what they are doing.
> 
> Here the alkie family has hit the end of his rope with longtime and/or childhood friends. They see through him. They moved on. Other friends matured and gave up the party life for career, marriage, house,mortgage etc he has not. They know the real deal, they might not admit it but especially with couples the spouses if not friends see right through conman, addict, alkie etc.  His peer group has changed alot over the decade especially. His best friend is half his age and not wise enough to see through him YET but is still past and still passing them maturity wise. As a 50 plus year old he frequently sounds like a teenager trying to act like an adult especially when trying to explain away his unemployment issues(presents as a businessman which is crock because a bankruptcy and failed business). Potential employers apparently see right through him because more than once he bragged he had a job all but wrapped up in a bow.


   Alcoholics stop maturing once the booze takes over. He is locked in whatever stage of development he reached before that occurred.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ronni said:


> You’re so right. When I began to grasp what was happening I wished that he would actually physically abuse me because at least then I’d have bruises and broken bones as actual evidence of the abuse. To say I was being abused , when all others saw was this charming and jovial man, was a huge disconnect for them.
> 
> Of course when I finally decided to leave is when the physical abuse started, and the threats, to me and to my kids if they left with me. I could deal with the physical threats. The threats to separate me from my children were the most difficult to bear.


What?  You are so wrong, wrong wrong, and as a physically abused person (by my first husband) I find your comments horrific and questionable.

You wanted broken bones, black eyes, a bleeding mouth, and bruises to PROVE you were abused but left when he threatened abuse?  Since you wanted broken bones and bruises why didn’t you stay?  Oh, let me guess, cause you really did not want broken bones and bruises.  I’d say more, but forum rules prevent me from doing so.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ronni said:


> That’s for sure!!


What you made was a hasty retreat.  There is nothing funny about physical abuse, nothing.


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## win231 (Dec 29, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Sure, your ex had other, worse mental problems besides narcissism Ronni, or you'd have made cornmeal outta him!


Mamaliga?


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## WhatInThe (Dec 29, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Alcoholics stop maturing once the booze takes over. He is locked in whatever stage of development he reached before that occurred.


Yeap, that's what's going on here and elsewhere. A mature person wouldn't be so volatile. I've seen it in the work place so not only do you have an "adult" going on a tirade, screaming etc you have a person in a position of authority doing it which leads younger employees the wrong way not knowing any better.

It is troubling and creepy the way many of these individuals are able to purposely fool others. Some of these types are serial killer/grifter charming.


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What you made was a hasty retreat.  There is nothing funny about physical abuse, nothing.


@Aneeda72 Wait what??  What on earth made you think I was making fun of physical abuse? I’ve BEEN physically abused, it’s the LAST thing I’d make fun of!


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## Pepper (Dec 29, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> It is troubling and creepy the way many of these individuals are able to purposely fool others. Some of these types are serial killer/grifter charming.


It might be more common in human society than we currently know or think.  That it's ordinary, that it's very hard to know the intimate thought lives of others.  We assume, based on ourselves.


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What?  You are so wrong, wrong wrong, and as a physically abused person (by my first husband) I find your comments horrific and questionable.
> 
> You wanted broken bones, black eyes, a bleeding mouth, and bruises to PROVE you were abused but left when he threatened abuse?  Since you wanted broken bones and bruises why didn’t you stay?  Oh, let me guess, cause you really did not want broken bones and bruises.  I’d say more, but forum rules prevent me from doing so.



Are you not reading what I'm saying? I WAS physically abused.  Minus the broken bones, I experienced everything you're saying here.  It was awful. 

The POINT I was trying to make, and obviously failed at dismally, is that there is a depth of wretchedness in having been mentally abused for all those years, yet you're disbelieved, ridiculed, questioned, doubted about the abuse because "he's such a lovely man" or "you're so lucky to have found him" or "you're overreacting" or "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you're just being hypersensitive" or any of the other dreck that came my way,  because they couldn't SEE any problem. 

Emotional/mental abuse wasn't recognized 30 years ago the way it is now.  Because I couldn't show bruises or bleeding, the domestic abuse was ignored.  Bleeding isn't ignored.  Bruises or black eyes aren't.  But my pleas were, because they were dismissed as just "he's being mean to me. Get over it."


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## Keesha (Dec 29, 2020)

Ronni, while I can’t speak for Aneeda, I believe she misunderstood your point. We often don’t recognize abuse until the fists come out and oddly enough the most abusive just happen to be completely charming, making the abused look like either liars or drama queens.

Probably the most dangerous time in any abusive relationship is when you actually acknowledge the abuse and make an effort to leave.

While broken bones are painful, they eventually heal. Psychological scars can last a lifetime. 
Babies who are never hugged or emotionally loved , never truly recover.

What you write about makes perfect sense. 
I think these types of topics are highly charged for all who have been seriously abused including yourself.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Are you not reading what I'm saying? I WAS physically abused.  Minus the broken bones, I experienced everything you're saying here.  It was awful.
> 
> The POINT I was trying to make, and obviously failed at dismally, is that there is a depth of wretchedness in having been mentally abused for all those years, yet you're disbelieved, ridiculed, questioned, doubted about the abuse because "he's such a lovely man" or "you're so lucky to have found him" or "you're overreacting" or "you're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "you're just being hypersensitive" or any of the other dreck that came my way,  because they couldn't SEE any problem.
> 
> Emotional/mental abuse wasn't recognized 30 years ago the way it is now.  Because I couldn't show bruises or bleeding, the domestic abuse was ignored.  Bleeding isn't ignored.  Bruises or black eyes aren't.  But my pleas were, because they were dismissed as "he's being mean to me."


Oh, I read what you said.  (Hmm, that rhymes).  In any event, why did you need validation of abuse from someone else?  If you could leave, why didn't you?

And, again, you are wrong.  Bleeding is ignored, bruises are ignored or explained away, even broken bones are ignored or explained away.  Certainly mental and emotional situations are ignored.  This was true over 70 years ago and it is true now.

I went to school with bleeding welts on back.  My mother left the house with my brother in tow and went to a neighbors house after my father threatened her with a shotgun.  She left me, her unwanted child behind.  My dad left as well, again, leaving me, the unwanted child, behind.  

Apparently, I was worth less than the cost of a shotgun bullet, or a walk across the street to safety, or a ride in a car.  You have no ideal what emotionally abuse I have under gone my entire life.  I had gone to sleep with the sounds of their fight, as usual.

I woke up to someone knocking on the door of an empty house.  It was the police.  Where are your mom and dad?  I checked-not here.  I didn’t know.  I was alone.  I was, maybe, 8.  They had always threatened to move and leave me behind.  I thought they had.  And now I would be arrested.

During my first marriage, neighbors often called the police, often.  He was never arrested and only once was he told to leave the house.  In my current marriage, my husband was told that unless he started hitting me the insurance would not pay for his mental health treatments despite testing that showed I am in moderate danger from him.

 We need agree to disagree on your ability to understand abuse.  Just my opinion.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 29, 2020)

Pepper said:


> It might be more common in human society than we currently know or think.  That it's ordinary, that it's very hard to know the intimate thought lives of others.  We assume, based on ourselves.


Everybody puts on act to a point but abusers or alkies/addicts take acting to new levels. But that's the thing is one minute they can control themselves and/or got out of their way to behave different and then the next  they can go off with more speed and bang than a rocket. 

 This is why I don't buy a mental case when it comes to this behavior or crime. They do have some kind of control and/or are cognizant of potential consequences/who they are in front of. This makes them even more evil.


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Oh, I read what you said.  (Hmm, that rhymes).  In any event, why did you need validation of abuse from someone else?  If you could leave, why didn't you?
> 
> And, again, you are wrong.  Bleeding is ignored, bruises are ignored or explained away, even broken bones are ignored or explained away.  Certainly mental and emotional situations are ignored.  This was true over 70 years ago and it is true now.
> 
> ...


I am so, so sorry you dealt with that.  I was not abused as a child, I had a wonderful family who cared for me and loved me.  So no, I don't know what it's like to be abused as a child and to have that kind of upbringing. 

I DO know what abuse feels like as an adult, both mental/emotional, and physical.  I ALSO know how it feels to see your children abused and feel helpless to do anything about it, but trying anyway.

I didn't experience the abuse the way you did, the same way you did.  I experienced my own abuse, from my abuser, for a long time.  It was systematic, and calculated, and eventually escalated to physical abuse when it became clear to him that I was going to leave him, and and taking the children with me. 

I don't understand abuse the way you do, becuase I haven't experienced it the way you did.   But that doesn't minimize in any way the abuse *I* suffered, the same way that it doesn't minimize in any way the abuse YOU suffered.  Abuse comes in all forms, in all shapes and sizes. 

This isn't a competition @Aneeda72.   I have no desire or any intention to one-up you.  This isn't what my post is about.  I hope to continue a dialogue with everyone who has any interest in the subject, whether or not they personally have suffered abuse, mental or physical.  That's all this is about, to create a greater understanding of the abuse dynamic.  Your input and experiences are tremendously valuable, and I hope you continue to post.

I have been scarred by the abuse in my past, and Ron continues to experience that...I trigger and have episodes of PTSD that unfortunately he gets to deal with.  I have to assume you have similar moments, and all I can say to that is that's f****** awful and I am so very sorry.


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## Ronni (Dec 29, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> Everybody puts on act to a point but abusers or alkies/addicts take acting to new levels. But that's the thing is one minute they can control themselves and/or got out of their way to behave different and then the next  they can go off with more speed and bang than a rocket.
> 
> This is why I don't buy a mental case when it comes to this behavior or crime. They do have some kind of control and/or are cognizant of potential consequences/who they are in front of. This makes them even more evil.


They are calculating, yes.  My ex was.  They are in control of their behavior.  They can turn on, or off, at will.  It's horridly amazing to watch them at work.  I called the police on my ex, more than once.  He was so charming, so effing BELIEVABLE!  My claims were discounted.


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## MarciKS (Dec 29, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Narcissism, like other apex Personality Disorders, resides on a sliding scale of severity. At its most toxic, a truly malignant narcissist leaves an escalating path of destruction in their wake, often culminating in physical violence, and, on occasion, murder. Seventy five percent are men, add positions of power and influence, cushioned by wealth, these “monsters”, highly intelligent, and charismatic, are very scary people.


*i worked with one of those for years off and on. it wasn't till this last round that i got to see a side of him that not only terrified me but emotionally he messed me up pretty good. i think if i had continued to work for him he would've become violent.*


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## peramangkelder (Dec 29, 2020)

My ACE Score is 9


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## Zone (Apr 26, 2021)

My Ace score is 2

I grew up in a normal family. 
But married a malignant narcissist. I see all my stories in this thread. I left twice but could not handle the stalking.
A closet smoker, I had become. I wish for all of us to be well. Mentally, emotionally and physically.


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## Zone (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> My Ace score is 2
> 
> I grew up in a normal family.
> But married a malignant narcissist. I see all my stories in this thread. I left twice but could not handle the stalking.
> A closet smoker, I had become. I wish for all of us to be well. Mentally, emotionally and physically.


Now, trying to quit smoking (again)


----------



## Keesha (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> My Ace score is 2
> 
> I grew up in a normal family.
> But married a malignant narcissist. I see all my stories in this thread. I left twice but could not handle the stalking.
> A closet smoker, I had become. I wish for all of us to be well. Mentally, emotionally and physically.


I dated one of those types once. He stalked me when things were going well. Once leaving his stalking became scary. I hope you are safe now. Good luck on quitting. One of our members here has quit smoking. It’s been 7 plus months for @Aunt Marg. Maybe she can give you some tips. Welcome to the site.


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## Shalimar (Apr 26, 2021)

*I find myself concerned around the perception by some that NPD is an easily managed, low level affliction. Perhaps there may be some narcissists  who fit that description, but I have never met one. If an individual  has had experience in dealing with NPD, and successfully escaped their clutches, yes, it is quite likely they will 

recognise the pathology and avoid such persons in future. Otherwise, NPD has a catastrophic effect on the lives of the unfortunate victims tormented by an apex emotional predator who knows full well what they are 

doing, and thoroughly enjoys it. It is difficult enough to deal with the fallout of such abuse without having to feel ashamed for being unable to avoid or control it. So many of the victims are young, children, teens, young 

adults. They lack the knowledge, strength and coping skills of mature adults. Others 
are simply too brainwashed/broken/poverty stricken etc to do anything but shutdown. I have been where they are, and I send, love, compassion, and support for their recovery. *


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 26, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I dated one of those types once. He stalked me when things were going well. Once leaving his stalking became scary. I hope you are safe now. Good luck on quitting. One of our members here has quit smoking. It’s been 7 plus months for @Aunt Marg. Maybe she can give you some tips. Welcome to the site.


Keesha, you got the 7 right, but in weeks. 

Hoping and praying I can make it to the end...


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## Zone (Apr 26, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I dated one of those types once. He stalked me when things were going well. Once leaving his stalking became scary. I hope you are safe now. Good luck on quitting. One of our members here has quit smoking. It’s been 7 plus months for @Aunt Marg. Maybe she can give you some tips. Welcome to the site.


Thanks Keesha. Yes I am safe now. With police records, now he keeps his hands to himself. 

I disengaged emotionally. Civil, polite, respectful. A biblical wife. 

When there’s “verbal diarrhea”, I can easily decipher his actual needs or wants. He used to burn down my whole forest. Now I feed him a log or two.  

Ah yes, Aunt Marg! She’s great! I admire her resolute!


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## Shalimar (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> Thanks Keesha. Yes I am safe now. With police records, now he keeps his hands to himself.
> 
> I disengaged emotionally. Civil, polite, respectful. A biblical wife.
> 
> ...


  I admire your strength, but I have concern for your emotional well being.


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## Zone (Apr 26, 2021)

Thanks Shalimar. 
Growing up, I was an extrovert. An outdoor girl, climbing trees and catching spiders. Then movies and disco...

I’m more introverted now, preferring and happy to spend time alone, by myself. 

I do volunteer work with the intellectually challenged. I believe I’m still in touch with love and compassion. And I enjoy practicing Taichi. 

That said, emotional well being is not a A+ grade. But it’s a pass.


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## Shalimar (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> Thanks Shalimar.
> Growing up, I was an extrovert. An outdoor girl, climbing trees and catching spiders. Then movies and disco...
> 
> I’m more introverted now, preferring and happy to spend time alone, by myself.
> ...


 You are most welcome. T’ai Chi works wonders for me also. If you are able to serve others, yes, you definitely are in touch with love and compassion. Sometimes, under the circumstances, a pass is the best grade we can manage.

Funny how, for some, the broken places are where the light shines the brightest. Sister, I salute you. Often, our brokenness is the greatest gift we have to offer.


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## Zone (Apr 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> *I find myself concerned around the perception by some that NPD is an easily managed, low level affliction. Perhaps there may be some narcissists  who fit that description, but I have never met one. If an individual  has had experience in dealing with NPD, and successfully escaped their clutches, yes, it is quite likely they will
> 
> recognise the pathology and avoid such persons in future. Otherwise, NPD has a catastrophic effect on the lives of the unfortunate victims tormented by an apex emotional predator who knows full well what they are
> 
> ...


It was a difficult journey, an understatement. I would wet my pillow every night and (until now - out of habit)  began to keep a towel under my pillow. 

With the internet, I pray the young ones will (hopefully) reach out, or at least, search and read up to empower themselves.


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## Shalimar (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> It was a difficult journey, an understatement. I would wet my pillow every night and (until now - out of habit)  began to keep a towel under my pillow.
> 
> With the internet, I pray the young ones will (hopefully) reach out, or at least, search and read up to empower themselves.


I do also. Certainly, there is more support readily available now.


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## Keesha (Apr 26, 2021)

Zone said:


> Thanks Keesha. Yes I am safe now. With police records, now he keeps his hands to himself.
> 
> I disengaged emotionally. Civil, polite, respectful. A biblical wife.
> 
> ...


Sometimes getting police involved completely changes dynamics in these types of hostile relationships and nothing speaks louder than filing a report with the police. It’s also validating to the victim. There’s legal documentation of criminal behaviour which speaks volumes. Plus proper help is often offered at this point in time like ‘free’ counselling. Counselling thats geared towards domestic violence.

Now you feed him a log or two?
So you are still in touch with him?
That’s somewhat concerning.
If it were me, I’d do a ‘no contact’ relationship but that’s due to my own personal experience.

My ex called me about 25 years ago. I’m not sure how he got my number but it was the last time I heard from him.


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## Keesha (Apr 26, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Keesha, you got the 7 right, but in weeks.
> 
> Hoping and praying I can make it to the end...


Close enough. 
You will. You really want this and I believe in you.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 26, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Close enough.
> You will. You really want this and I believe in you.





Zone said:


> Ah yes, Aunt Marg! She’s great! I admire her resolute!


Awww... thank you to the two of you!  

There are a whole lot of people who will be some disappointed in me if I cave now, so that's helping me remain steadfast in my quest to quit. 

Thank you to all!


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## maybenot (May 6, 2021)

I didn't know about the ACE test so just tried it, I got a 3, but  I feel that the questions focus too much on physical abuse ,,, sure it's harmful both physically and mentally, but emotional neglect takes a mighty toll on a child too.
 Both my parents were what's described as 'stoic', never showed any emotion, no hugs, words of endearment etc altho' I did well at school and I think now that I was always looking for something to make them show that I was worthy,

 I find my past just too shameful to discuss, many,many failed relationships until I met and married my 2nd husband, a good and kind man who died too soon.

Now, I have only one friend and am almost a recluse, I just don't trust anyone and altho' I'd love to meet new people, I'm paranoid that if I like someone, that they'll use me in some way ... pathetic!!!


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## MarciKS (May 6, 2021)

maybenot said:


> I didn't know about the ACE test so just tried it, I got a 3, but  I feel that the questions focus too much on physical abuse ,,, sure it's harmful both physically and mentally, but emotional neglect takes a mighty toll on a child too.
> Both my parents were what's described as 'stoic', never showed any emotion, no hugs, words of endearment etc altho' I did well at school and I think now that I was always looking for something to make them show that I was worthy,
> 
> I find my past just too shameful to discuss, many,many failed relationships until I met and married my 2nd husband, a good and kind man who died too soon.
> ...


it's not pathetic. it's one of today's realities. and some people are really good about hiding who they really are.


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## Zone (May 6, 2021)

I didn't know about the ACE test so just tried it, I got a 3, but  I feel that the questions focus too much on physical abuse ,,, sure it's harmful both physically and mentally, but emotional neglect takes a mighty toll on a child too.


maybenot said:


> Both my parents were what's described as 'stoic', never showed any emotion, no hugs, words of endearment etc altho' I did well at school and I think now that I was always looking for something to make them show that I was worthy,
> 
> I find my past just too shameful to discuss, many,many failed relationships until I met and married my 2nd husband, a good and kind man who died too soon.
> 
> Now, I have only one friend and am almost a recluse, I just don't trust anyone and altho' I'd love to meet new people, I'm paranoid that if I like someone, that they'll use me in some way ... pathetic!!!


Hi maybenot

It’s a pattern you need to break, hugs. 
No shame. No blame. 
Think about growth. Seek growth. 
It took me ten years to get to where I am. More hugs


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## maybenot (May 6, 2021)

Thanks for those kind words Zen, but I'm afraid that I was fooled again 3 yrs ago, and altho' I knew from the 3 month mark that he was a narc, ( happened to stumble on a Q site that made me recognise the traits)  I remained his supply for another 2 yrs before I found the guts to call it a day ... thus pathetic!


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## Zone (May 6, 2021)

Of course you’re not pathetic!
You are brave! Cos you broke free!
And you are lucky too. 
It’s not easy to break free from the full blown ones!!!
So take heart, some work and some luck and you will soon be at a good place <3

Hugs


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## mellowyellow (May 6, 2021)

One woman every week is killed in Australia by her ex-partner or partner and violence protection orders don’t work. One man who was consumed with hatred for his wife, drove his 3 sons into a dam and let them drown to ‘teach her a lesson.’   Last month, a man strapped his baby to his chest and jumped off a wall, killing them both instantly.  Custody battles are out of control.

This man followed his wife from picking up the children after school and threw petrol into the car and burnt them all to death.


Baxter was offered "three days one week and four the next" in a custody arrangement, but rejected it against his lawyer's advice.

_He rejected his lawyer's advice in mediation and refused to sign a consent order offered by Hannah allowing him 165 days of custody a year."He had three days one week and four the next," the source said.

"He got the children back but... he wanted 50-50, that was it. It was his way or nothing."………_.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02...ree-children-dead-car-fire-camp-hill/11979628


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## Zone (May 6, 2021)

Education on narcissism is important. The ability to put into practice is more important. 
Most importantly, the *decision* and the *determination* to learn and practice.


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## Aunt Marg (May 6, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> One woman every week is killed in Australia by her ex-partner or partner and violence protection orders don’t work. One man who was consumed with hatred for his wife, drove his 3 sons into a dam and let them drown to ‘teach her a lesson.’   Last month, a man strapped his baby to his chest and jumped off a wall, killing them both instantly.  Custody battles are out of control.
> 
> This man followed his wife from picking up the children after school and threw petrol into the car and burnt them all to death.
> 
> ...


The people of this world have truly lost their way.


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## Paco Dennis (May 8, 2021)

We all manipulate others to do what we desire. When the manipulation is subconscious we try to make others like our selves. This all very normal. This can become a dynamic that can turn ugly and does. The victims of abusers automatically have some degree of PTSD. To some degree we all have it too. When violence is involved a new level has been reached. We all agree the act is illegal, expect the perps. What we each do with it varies widely. Learning how to control ourselves, not suppress, is a worth goal.


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## Devi (May 8, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> The people of this world have truly lost their way.


It's important to remember that the acts of some people do not reflect "everyone".


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## Paco Dennis (May 8, 2021)

Devi said:


> It's important to remember that the acts of some people do not reflect "everyone".



Especially @Aunt Marg...who has truly NOT lost her way.


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## Devi (May 9, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> Especially @Aunt Marg...who has truly NOT lost her way.


I think you've misunderstood what I said. But, whatever.


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## Paco Dennis (May 9, 2021)

Devi said:


> I think you've misunderstood what I said. But, whatever.


No worries...I misunderstand about everything.


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