# Before anyone else takes the shot



## squatting dog

THIS IS DNA GENE THERAPY!   Now, before you poo-poo this, those of you who keep saying trust science, check the credentials of who's reporting this.

A startling new report in *Microbiology and Infectious Disease* ( The premier global open access, peer-reviewed journal that considers articles on all
aspects of the prevention, diagnosis and management of infectious diseases) finds the mRNA vaccines could trigger Alzheimer’s disease, ALS, and other neurological and cognitive degenerative diseases.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/dmid#:~:text=The Division of Microbiology and Infectious Diseases (DMID),support basic research, preclinical development, and clinical evaluation.

https://www.hennessysview.com/image...ccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf


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## garyt1957

I have reservations about the vaccine but still decided to get it. I can understand why others would choose not to get it. I'm worried about long term effects but at 63, what is long term? As I've posted elsewhere my nephew's MIL and FIL died of covid within 5 days of each other last week.  They were not vaccinated for some reason. Would they trade the chance of long term effects to be alive now? I think they would and I know they're kids would.


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## Don M.

Taking ANY prescription drug, or vaccine carries some degree of risk for side effects, etc.  Everyone can react differently to Any foreign substance which enters the body.  With these vaccine, it will be months, perhaps years, before evidence of any long term affects are known.  In the meantime, thousands of people are being infected and/or dying daily, globally.  Therefore, it comes down to whether a person is willing to take the "risk", or face a far greater certainty of becoming ill or dying....or is willing to "isolate" themselves for an extended period of time.


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## Aunt Marg

squatting dog said:


> THIS IS DNA GENE THERAPY!   Now, before you poo-poo this, those of you who keep saying trust science, check the credentials of who's reporting this.
> 
> A startling new report in *Microbiology and Infectious Disease* ( The premier global open access, peer-reviewed journal that considers articles on all
> aspects of the prevention, diagnosis and management of infectious diseases) finds the mRNA vaccines could trigger Alzheimer’s disease, ALS, and other neurological and cognitive degenerative diseases.
> 
> https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/dmid#:~:text=The Division of Microbiology and Infectious Diseases (DMID),support basic research, preclinical development, and clinical evaluation.
> 
> https://www.hennessysview.com/image...ccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf


This hardens my stance on not being vaccinated.


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## squatting dog

Aunt Marg said:


> This hardens my stance on not being vaccinated.



Exactly. I really don't have a dog in this hunt, (we decided at the start... no vaccine), but, when I find something that might help someone else make an informative choice, then I have to speak out. This whole vaccine thing got the knee jerk bum's rush.
That in itself was bad enough, but, when you find it's messing with your DNA   well, that's a whole new ballgame.


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## Aunt Marg

squatting dog said:


> Exactly. I really don't have a dog in this hunt, (we decided at the start... no vaccine), but, when I find something that might help someone else make an informative choice, then I have to speak out. This whole vaccine thing got the knee jerk bum's rush.
> That in itself was bad enough, but, when you find it's messing with your DNA   well, that's a whole new ballgame.


It really is troubling, Squatting.


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## Keesha

This information isn’t surprising to me. 
These drugs are even FDA approved. Not that that adds any credibility.


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## Gaer

I wish this would have been posted prior to my stupidly getting the shot!
Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I've ever done.
Wo!  That list is getting awfully long!


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## Capt Lightning

To those who refuse to be vaccinated,  You're free to do as you please, but can you please keep at least 2 mtrs away from me.


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## chic

I thought that couldn't happen, so it was explained. MRNA doesn't get into the nucleus where your DNA is. I'm not a scientist.


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## digifoss

Gaer said:


> I wish this would have been posted prior to my stupidly getting the shot!
> Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I'veeverdone.
> Wo!  That list is getting awfully long!


You really shouldn't beat yourself up over this Gaer.  When you got the shot, you believed it was in your best interest to do so and that's important and it could be it was the right thing to do, no one else's opinion should make you feel any different.  Hindsight sometimes makes us second guess ourselves unnecessarily.  I wouldn't put too much stock into what anybody else is opinionating about getting the vaccine, for or against.  Influence peddlers.


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## Ruthanne

Too late I already got both.


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## old medic

Capt Lightning said:


> To those who refuse to be vaccinated,  You're free to do as you please, but can you please keep at least 2 mtrs away from me.


WHY???? don't you trust it to protect you?


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## Sassycakes

After seeing what my nephew has been going through after contacting the covid in November and having to have a double lung transplant and being on and off a ventilator and is still in the hospital, I decided it would be better for me and my husband to get vaccinated. So we both are vaccinated now.


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## win231

Gaer said:


> I wish this would have been posted prior to my stupidly getting the shot!
> Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I've ever done.
> Wo!  That list is getting awfully long!


I wouldn't call getting the shot "Stupid."  More like the result of fear, concern, pressure, & trust in the experts.
I don't fear Covid & I don't automatically trust experts & nobody pressures me into anything.
I took two elderly friends (85 & 87) to get their Covid shots last month.  That's what they wanted & that's what made them feel confident.


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## win231

Capt Lightning said:


> To those who refuse to be vaccinated,  You're free to do as you please, but can you please keep at least 2 mtrs away from me.


ROFLOL!   Yup......you really have lotsa confidence in that vaccine, eh?


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## Gaer

win231 said:


> I wouldn't call getting the shot "Stupid."  More like the result of both fear & concern & trust in the experts.
> I don't fear Covid & I don't automatically trust experts.
> I took two elderly friends (85 & 87) to get their Covid shots last month.


FOR ME, it was stupid because according to the cdc nurse, I almost died from it.  
Not for others.


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## digifoss

Gaer said:


> FOR ME, it was stupid because according to the cdc nurse, I almost died from it.
> Not for others.


I did not know that, so sorry you had such a terrible experience with it.  Still not you fault and you are not stupid for getting that shot, it just worked out not so good  for you but who could have known.


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## JonDouglas

This is another example of why it's good to always think on your own, paying attention to all sides of an issue and not be chased into doing something by intense propaganda, especially from people in political office.  The fact that mRNA was highly experimental was known at he outset if you were paying attention and not mindlessly following the crowd.  The real experts made that quite clear but were often drowned out and sometimes blocked by the intense campaign mounted by the government, media and some private companies.  It always behooves each person to do their own risk analysis based on as much input as they can gather.  This can be difficult when so much money is at stake in an environment of fear.

Edit Update Note:  When someone or something tries to denigrate or "put down" some opposing voice, view or thought on an issue:  you know its time to give that view, voice or idea more, not less, attention.


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## tbeltrans

I probably already did this in another of the many "shot" threads, but this thread just begs for it...






Tony


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## MarciKS

Ruthanne said:


> Too late I already got both.


@Ruthanne this is not aimed at you....

I already have crap wrong with my brain and I'm old. I'll probably end up with alzheimer's anyway. I could see it being a bigger deal if I was 30 with my whole life ahead of me. I'm 55. How many good years do you think I got left? We're all gonna get old and die. Of something. Be it a vaccine...a car accident...a heart attack. Cancer! I'm more worried about cancer than I am about the vaccine. You guys just won't stop till you've picked these vaccines apart and scared the hell out of people who probably won't have any problems with it. Now you're trying to scare the ones that have gotten it. I've said it before...I'll say it again...this is pointless. This virus has been going on for over a year. It's not going anywhere. And no matter what anyone does or says in this forum in these threads isn't gonna change any of that so I don't see the point in continuing to bitch, piss and moan about it. If it's gonna be this way forever are you gonna bellyache about it forever?


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## win231

Gaer said:


> FOR ME, it was stupid because according to the cdc nurse, I almost died from it.
> Not for others.


You couldn't have known it would not be good for you beforehand.


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## chic

Gaer said:


> FOR ME, it was stupid because according to the cdc nurse, I almost died from it.
> Not for others.


You had a terrible time with it didn't you. What you went through would have scared me out of my wits.


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## Becky1951

MarciKS said:


> I already have crap wrong with my brain and I'm old. I'll probably end up with alzheimer's anyway. I could see it being a bigger deal if I was 30 with my whole life ahead of me. I'm 55. How many good years do you think I got left? We're all gonna get old and die. Of something. Be it a vaccine...a car accident...a heart attack. Cancer! I'm more worried about cancer than I am about the vaccine. You guys just won't stop till you've picked these vaccines apart and scared the hell out of people who probably won't have any problems with it. Now you're trying to scare the ones that have gotten it. I've said it before...I'll say it again...this is pointless. This virus has been going on for over a year. It's not going anywhere. And no matter what anyone does or says in this forum in these threads isn't gonna change any of that so I don't see the point in continuing to bitch, piss and moan about it. If it's gonna be this way forever are you gonna bellyache about it forever?


"You guys just won't stop till you've picked these vaccines apart and scared the hell out of people who probably won't have any problems with it. Now you're trying to scare the ones that have gotten it."

No one is trying to scare anyone.  If an news article is published and anyone wishes to post said article, that's not to scare anyone. Its information, maybe not the kind that makes a person feel secure but its still information and shouldn't be omitted just because it doesn't praise the vaccine.

Yet anyone posting any negatives about the vaccine is always accused of something, being stupid, ignorant, cowardly, non caring and trying to scare others. I just don't understand why its thought that any negative information should be omitted.


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## terry123

I am 74 and will get the shots. Not the Johnson one due to past brain bleeds.  It is good for me.  Do your own thing.


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## MarciKS

Becky1951 said:


> "You guys just won't stop till you've picked these vaccines apart and scared the hell out of people who probably won't have any problems with it. Now you're trying to scare the ones that have gotten it."
> 
> No one is trying to scare anyone.  If an news article is published and anyone wishes to post said article, that's not to scare anyone. Its information, maybe not the kind that makes a person feel secure but its still information and shouldn't be omitted just because it doesn't praise the vaccine.
> 
> Yet anyone posting any negatives about the vaccine is always accused of something, being stupid, ignorant, cowardly, non caring and trying to scare others. I just don't understand why its thought that any negative information should be omitted.


I never see you guys post anything except bad stuff. You don't ever see anything but that anywhere?


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## Becky1951

MarciKS said:


> I never see you guys post anything except bad stuff. You don't ever see anything but that anywhere?


Sure I see good stuff. I've posted good stuff, funny stuff. But I and others question the vaccines. We have that right. We also have the right to post the information regardless of how uncomfortable it makes others feel.

And we should have that right without being called names. I've never told anyone who got the vaccine, or is going to get the vaccine that they shouldn't or have never called them stupid etc.


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## MarciKS

You guys are also always saying that anything in the media can't be trusted but you trust all this stuff you plaster this site with in an effort to scare folks into not getting vaccinated. I didn't worry about all the media. I decided for myself that I was willing to risk it if it kept me from dying from this virus. All the news reports in the world wouldn't have changed that decision. But in one breath you guys get upset because you insult us we insult you and everyone is posting stuff they supposedly don't trust but they put it up anyway for all of us to read and bicker about I don't understand why? If your intention is to warn people who I'm sure see the same reports as everyone else...and you don't trust the media for anything...why post it?


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## MarciKS

Becky1951 said:


> Sure I see good stuff. I've posted good stuff, funny stuff. But I and others question the vaccines. We have that right. We also have the right to post the information regardless of how uncomfortable it makes others feel.
> 
> And we should have that right without being called names. I've never told anyone who got the vaccine, or is going to get the vaccine that they shouldn't or have never called them stupid etc.


We have the right to our opinions too. So here we are.

And for the record Becky I've never said you called anyone stupid. I've never seen you do that.


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## MarciKS

Becky1951 said:


> "You guys just won't stop till you've picked these vaccines apart and scared the hell out of people who probably won't have any problems with it. Now you're trying to scare the ones that have gotten it."
> 
> No one is trying to scare anyone.  If an news article is published and anyone wishes to post said article, that's not to scare anyone. Its information, maybe not the kind that makes a person feel secure but its still information and shouldn't be omitted just because it doesn't praise the vaccine.
> 
> Yet anyone posting any negatives about the vaccine is always accused of something, being stupid, ignorant, cowardly, non caring and trying to scare others. I just don't understand why its thought that any negative information should be omitted.


"Yet anyone posting any negatives about the vaccine is always accused of something, being stupid, ignorant, cowardly, non caring and trying to scare others. I just don't understand why its thought that any negative information should be omitted."

I never accused you of that. Never said it should be omitted either. I just don't understand why you guys spend all day long every day looking for a reason to not get vaccinated and/or looking for a reason to try to convince others not to when it's their choice. It feels like COVID and everything related to it has taken over the forum and I just wonder if there will ever be an end to it. That's all.


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## Della

So far 586,579 Americans have died from Covid. That's all the scare statistics I need.


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## Dana

*Can COVID-19 vaccines alter my DNA?

NO, COVID-19 vaccines do NOT alter your DNA.*

The Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine uses a fragment of messenger RNA (mRNA) to instruct your body to make an immune response against COVID-19.

*There is a crucial difference between mRNA and DNA  *

DNA, which makes up our genetic code, is larger, double stranded and very long. The mRNA is a single stranded copy of a small part of the DNA, which is often released to send instructions to other parts of the cell.

DNA is stored in the protected centre of our cells – the nucleus. The mRNA is broken down quickly by the body. It never enters the nucleus, and cannot affect or combine with our DNA in any way to change our genetic code.

Instead, COVID-19 mRNA vaccines teach the cell how to make a protein that triggers an immune response specific to COVID-19. The vaccines work with the body’s natural defences to develop immunity to disease.

https://www.health.gov.au/initiativ...is-it-true-can-covid-19-vaccines-alter-my-dna

Would be  good  before people post stuff...they do the intelligent thing and investigate and research thoroughly. If not...your purpose is to scare people needlessly.


.


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## Becky1951

MarciKS said:


> You guys are also always saying that anything in the media can't be trusted but you trust all this stuff you plaster this site with in an effort to scare folks into not getting vaccinated. I didn't worry about all the media. I decided for myself that I was willing to risk it if it kept me from dying from this virus. All the news reports in the world wouldn't have changed that decision. But in one breath you guys get upset because you insult us we insult you and everyone is posting stuff they supposedly don't trust but they put it up anyway for all of us to read and bicker about I don't understand why? If your intention is to warn people who I'm sure see the same reports as everyone else...and you don't trust the media for anything...why post it?


No, I've never said the media can't be trusted, I just don't believe some of it. I question it.  I'm sorry if negative posts scare others, not my intent. Information is my intent. I've never warned anyone. I hope they research and form their own opinions. I have no problem with those who have been vaccinated or plan to be vaccinated.

If someone doesn't agree, that's ok, just don't belittle and call that person names. Not you personally, I mean anyone who does that, and many have.

And yes if an article is informative but yet negative, I will continue to post it. 

Anyone not interested in what I post there is a simple solution, put me on ignore.


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## MarciKS

Becky1951 said:


> No, I've never said the media can't be trusted, I just don't believe some of it. I question it.  I'm sorry if negative posts scare others, not my intent. Information is my intent. I've never warned anyone. I hope they research and form their own opinions. I have no problem with those who have been vaccinated or plan to be vaccinated.
> 
> If someone doesn't agree, that's ok, just don't belittle and call that person names. Not you personally, I mean anyone who does that, and many have.
> 
> And yes if an article is informative but yet negative, I will continue to post it.
> 
> Anyone not interested in what I post there is a simple solution, put me on ignore.


Well I don't want to put you on ignore but since that seems to be the only solution on this site then so be it.


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## Keesha

I happen to appreciate information from all sides and angles. From there I can decide whether to consider it or leave it. We are all adults here after all.


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## Keesha

Becky1951 said:


> Sure I see good stuff. I've posted good stuff, funny stuff. But I and others question the vaccines. We have that right. We also have the right to post the information regardless of how uncomfortable it makes others feel.
> 
> And we should have that right without being called names. I've never told anyone who got the vaccine, or is going to get the vaccine that they shouldn't or have never called them stupid etc.


You’ve done absolutely nothing wrong. 
If members don’t like your posts, they can by-pass them. You shouldn’t feel the need to be defending yourself for sharing other viewpoints concerning the vaccines. Us interested parties might be in the minority but even those in the minority matter. We don’t have to all agree on everything.


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## officerripley

old medic said:


> WHY???? don't you trust it to protect you?


No vaccine is 100 percent effective; therefore people masking and/or staying 6 feet away just adds more protection. If protection is something you couldn't care less about, that's the way you are. But some of us do care about it and get frustrated when others don't. Not that long of a distance between those who refuse to mask/stay 6 ft. away and deliberately coughing on others as some have done. (It's surprising the human race is still here, actually.)


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## Becky1951

MarciKS said:


> "Yet anyone posting any negatives about the vaccine is always accused of something, being stupid, ignorant, cowardly, non caring and trying to scare others. I just don't understand why its thought that any negative information should be omitted."
> 
> I never accused you of that. Never said it should be omitted either. I just don't understand why you guys spend all day long every day looking for a reason to not get vaccinated and/or looking for a reason to try to convince others not to when it's their choice. It feels like COVID and everything related to it has taken over the forum and I just wonder if there will ever be an end to it. That's all.


"you guys spend all day long every day looking for a reason to not get vaccinated and/or looking for a reason to try to convince others not to when it's their choice."

LOL I don't much time, I check news in the morning while having coffee.
Not my fault those articles are there.

But that's just it, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just posting articles to give information, believe them or not. 

I'm not saying this following statement I use often is directed to anyone, its just something I say.

*"I won't live with my head in the sand, because when you do that it leaves your ass up ready to be kicked."*


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## chic

Keesha said:


> I happen to appreciate information from all sides and angles. From there I can decide whether to consider it or leave it. We are all adults here after all.


I feel the same. We are adults and able to make up our own minds about this important issue.


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## Keesha

chic said:


> I feel the same. We are adults and able to make up our own minds about this important issue.


We are? 
I mean, we ARE!!!lol


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## squatting dog

Dana said:


> Would be  good  before people post stuff...they do the intelligent thing and investigate and research thoroughly. If not...your purpose is to scare people needlessly.
> 
> 
> .



Good advice... Before I made the original post, that's exactly what I did. I chose to look at BOTH sides of the argument. Seems like I keep hearing "trust the science". Well, get a room full of scientists and good luck trying to get them all to agree.

As I said before, my intent is to help educate people so they can chose what is best for them.  
The last paragraph here ought to at the very least raise a red flag and maybe give pause to some. 

Development of new vaccine technology has been plagued with problems in the past. The current RNA based SARSCoV-2 vaccines were approved in the US using an emergency order without extensive long term safety testing. In this paper the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was evaluated for the potential to induce prion-based disease in vaccine recipients. The RNA sequence of the vaccine as well as the spike protein target interaction were analyzed for the potential to convert intracellular RNA binding proteins TAR DNA binding protein (TDP-43) and Fused in Sarcoma (FUS) into their pathologic prion conformations. The results indicate that the vaccine RNA has specific sequences that may induce TDP-43 and FUS to fold into their pathologic prion confirmations. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. Potential G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but a more sophisticated computer program is needed to verify these. Furthermore, the spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme. This interaction has the potential to increase intracellular zinc.

 Zinc ions have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit.


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## Liberty

Junk Science to say the shots cause Alzheimers...:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/


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## squatting dog

Liberty said:


> Junk Science to say the shots cause Alzheimers...:
> 
> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-mrna-based-covid-19-vaccines-cause-prion-disease/


Ahhhh. the old junk science argument.   I see, science that doesn't agree with you is Junk.   Cheers.


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## JonDouglas

The inherent problem in determining the extent to which a vaccine has positive and/or negative effects is one of statistical inference.  Statistical inference is the process of using data analysis to infer a probability of some effect happening (e.g., there's a 60% chance a vaccine shot will prevent or cause something to happen).  Statistical inference is used when it is not possible to apply direct, empirical observation (i.e., I can see it happen with my own eyes).  

Studies based on statistical inferences can be built on shaky grounds caused by too few or too narrow a range of samples, improper identification and counting of events and bad modeling.  It isn't all that hard to create a statistical model that tries to show just about anything you want and the average, non-mathematical person won't know the difference.  Also, where there's some polarization of an issue (e.g., Is there really global warming?  Is the vaccine cause dangerous? ) each side will have  its studies, models and articles and often attempt to denigrate, disprove or otherwise invalidate the other's position, often claiming "junk science" .  The two things that send my warning flag up the pole are, "The science is settled." and "It's junk science."  Conclusions based on statistical inference are seldom settled and often junky to some degree.  Finally, thinking that "scientific" studies are not influenced by money is naive.


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## Dana

squatting dog said:


> Good advice... Before I made the original post, that's exactly what I did. I chose to look at BOTH sides of the argument. Seems like I keep hearing "trust the science". Well, get a room full of scientists and good luck trying to get them all to agree.
> 
> As I said before, my intent is to help educate people so they can chose what is best for them.
> The last paragraph here ought to at the very least raise a red flag and maybe give pause to some.
> 
> Development of new vaccine technology has been plagued with problems in the past. The current RNA based SARSCoV-2 vaccines were approved in the US using an emergency order without extensive long term safety testing. In this paper the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was evaluated for the potential to induce prion-based disease in vaccine recipients. The RNA sequence of the vaccine as well as the spike protein target interaction were analyzed for the potential to convert intracellular RNA binding proteins TAR DNA binding protein (TDP-43) and Fused in Sarcoma (FUS) into their pathologic prion conformations. The results indicate that the vaccine RNA has specific sequences that may induce TDP-43 and FUS to fold into their pathologic prion confirmations. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. Potential G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but a more sophisticated computer program is needed to verify these. Furthermore, the spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme. This interaction has the potential to increase intracellular zinc.
> 
> Zinc ions have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit.


.
_*All of that is irrelevant…you have completely ignored the most salient point of the article…this is the crux of the matter.*_

*There is a crucial difference between mRNA and DNA 
.*


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## Pappy

I can’t help but think that a lot of these negative reviews were said about the flu shot, polio vaccine, mumps, measles and so on. It’s new and can be scary, but the good, my opinion, outweighs the bad. Besides, at 83, I’d be a damn fool not to take it.


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## Liberty

Antivaxxers are always around...urban myths abound...that's life:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4718347/

ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE

An "urban myth" concerning the association between influenza vaccination and Alzheimer's disease was created in 2005 after an episode of the television show "Larry King Live" in which Bill Maher was being interviewed by Larry King. Maher argued that "if you have a flu shot for more than five years in a row, there's ten times the likelihood that you'll get Alzheimer's disease" [23]. Dr. Maher was referring to Dr. Hugh Fudenberg's speech during the 1st annual International Public Conference on Vaccination, held by the National Vaccine Information Center in Arlington, Virginia in 1997 [24]. However, a study conducted by Verreault et al. in 2001 refuted Maher's claim. Indeed, by means of a prospective study – the "Canadian Study on Health and Aging", a cohort Study on dementia – Verreault et al. had shown that increased exposure to vaccines against diphtheria, tetanus, polio and flu not only was not a risk of contracting Alzheimer's, but could actually protect against the disease [25].


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## SeaBreeze

Pappy said:


> I can’t help but think that a lot of these negative reviews were said about the flu shot, polio vaccine, mumps, measles and so on. It’s new and can be scary, but the good, my opinion, outweighs the bad. Besides, at 83, I’d be a damn fool not to take it.


You're exactly right Pappy!  Getting the vaccine at our ages when over 600,000 Americans have died from COVID-19 related complications, is just plain common sense.  I have both of my Moderna vaccines, at 68 I'd rather be infected with a mild case of the coronavirus after vaccinated, than have a severe case that destroys my lungs, perhaps has me put into an induced coma and attached to a ventilator alone in a hospital for my last days on earth.

  It's a no brainer, IMO, luckily most of the folks I know and have come in contact with were smart enough to get their vaccines.  None of us wanted to be living through a worldwide pandemic in our golden years, but it would be foolish not to take and use all available precautions.  Once again, I'm not a vaccine person or see the doctor often, but when a deadly virus is spreading across the country, I don't need to be convinced to protect myself and those I'm close to.


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## squatting dog

Dana said:


> .
> _*All of that is irrelevant…you have completely ignored the most salient point of the article…this is the crux of the matter.*_
> 
> *There is a crucial difference between mRNA and DNA
> .*


Once again. Did you read the final paragraph? mRNA is a variant of RNA,(thus the small letter m).  
 The spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme.  The zinc ions being a POSSIBLE problem since it has already been linked to Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases.


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## Dana

squatting dog said:


> Once again. Did you read the final paragraph? mRNA is a variant of RNA,(thus the small letter m).
> The spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme.  The zinc ions being a POSSIBLE problem since it has already been linked to Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases.



All viruses are variants of each other...that is why vaccines are invented and why scientists have to keep one step ahead. All viruses mutate and that is why samples of past viruses are kept in vaults in labs so that they can be improved to fight future pandemics.


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## digifoss

I think I may have already had it last June.  My test was negative but I think it was a false negative.


----------



## Liberty

Liberty said:


> Antivaxxers are always around...urban myths abound...that's life:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4718347/
> 
> ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE
> 
> An "urban myth" concerning the association between influenza vaccination and Alzheimer's disease was created in 2005 after an episode of the television show "Larry King Live" in which Bill Maher was being interviewed by Larry King. Maher argued that "if you have a flu shot for more than five years in a row, there's ten times the likelihood that you'll get Alzheimer's disease" [23]. Dr. Maher was referring to Dr. Hugh Fudenberg's speech during the 1st annual International Public Conference on Vaccination, held by the National Vaccine Information Center in Arlington, Virginia in 1997 [24]. However, a study conducted by Verreault et al. in 2001 refuted Maher's claim. Indeed, by means of a prospective study – the "Canadian Study on Health and Aging", a cohort Study on dementia – Verreault et al. had shown that increased exposure to vaccines against diphtheria, tetanus, polio and flu not only was not a risk of contracting Alzheimer's, but could actually protect against the disease [25].
> 
> 
> SeaBreeze said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're exactly right Pappy!  Getting the vaccine at our ages when over 600,000 Americans have died from COVID-19 related complications, is just plain common sense.  I have both of my Moderna vaccines, at 68 I'd rather be infected with a mild case of the coronavirus after vaccinated, than have a severe case that destroys my lungs, perhaps has me put into an induced coma and attached to a ventilator alone in a hospital for my last days on earth.
> 
> It's a no brainer, IMO, luckily most of the folks I know and have come in contact with were smart enough to get their vaccines.  None of us wanted to be living through a worldwide pandemic in our golden years, but it would be foolish not to take and use all available precautions.  Once again, I'm not a vaccine person or see the doctor often, but when a deadly virus is spreading across the country, I don't need to be convinced to protect myself and those I'm close to.
Click to expand...




Dana said:


> All viruses are variants of each other...that is why vaccines are invented and why scientists have to keep one step ahead. All viruses mutate and that is why samples of past viruses are kept in vaults in labs so that they can be improved to fight future pandemics.


Zinc - too little or too much has long been talked about with Alzheimers, like aluminum, in the human body.  

https://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/guide/controversial-claims-risk-factors


----------



## Dana

Liberty said:


> Zinc - too little or too much has long been talked about with Alzheimers, like aluminum, in the human body.
> 
> https://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/guide/controversial-claims-risk-factors



Yes...I've read that too and there is a lot of evidence to back it up.


----------



## Robert59

I never got the shots. I'm a 0+ blood type.


----------



## JonDouglas

*DOD Tracking 14 Cases of Heart Inflammation in Troops After COVID-19 Shot*s:  From Military.com:

_The Defense Department is tracking 14 cases of heart inflammation, or myocarditis, in military health patients who developed the condition after receiving either the Pfizer or Moderna COVID-19 vaccine._​​_The rare disorder, usually caused by a virus, has been linked to COVID-19. But following a number of reports from Israel of patients developing the inflammation in conjunction with receiving vaccines, the Israeli Health Ministry is exploring a possible link, Israel's Channel 12 reported Friday, according to the Jerusalem Post._​​Just another data point to be aware of and not a known trend at this time.  More at the SOURCE.


----------



## HoneyNut

JonDouglas said:


> it's good to always think on your own, paying attention to all sides of an issue and not be chased into doing something by intense propaganda



That is good advice.  I was reading the article linked to the original post here and just the way it was written was not sounding scientific, it was wrapped up like it was, but full of wild speculation, so I googled the author, and it turns out he is a anti-vaxxer of very questionable reputation, this is quote from wikipedia:

"Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist. He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[1][2] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[3] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[4] His views are disputed and considered unverified.

A widely-reposted 2021 Facebook post claiming that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 could cause prion diseases was based on a paper by Classen. The paper was published in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, whose publisher, Scivision Publishers, is included in Beall's list of publishers of predatory journals. Vincent Racaniello, professor of microbiology and immunology at Columbia University, described the claim as "completely wrong".[5][6][7] 

Anti-vaccination views
Classen proposes that vaccines cause diabetes by causing the release of interferons, causing an autoimmune state leading to immune-mediated type 1 diabetes,[8] and he is quoted on many anti-vaccine websites, such as that of the National Vaccine Information Center. His work has been criticized, for example, journalist Amy Wallace wrote that the vaccine-diabetes link "...relies on the flawed work of one doctor [Classen], who gathered data on a slew of vaccines and failed to follow standard study protocols. No other study — including those using the same data — could reproduce the results."[9] Independent studies that have investigated the potential link between vaccines and diabetes include one, published by Frank DeStefano, which "did not find an increased risk of type 1 diabetes associated with any of the routinely recommended childhood vaccines."[10]  "


----------



## StarSong

@HoneyNut, thank you for doing the research and providing us with the fruits of your labors.


----------



## JonDouglas

HoneyNut said:


> That is good advice.  I was reading the article linked to the original post here and just the way it was written was not sounding scientific, it was wrapped up like it was, but full of wild speculation, so I googled the author, and it turns out he is a anti-vaxxer of very questionable reputation, this is quote from wikipedia:
> 
> "Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist. He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[1][2] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[3] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[4] His views are disputed and considered unverified.
> 
> A widely-reposted 2021 Facebook post claiming that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 could cause prion diseases was based on a paper by Classen. The paper was published in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, whose publisher, Scivision Publishers, is included in Beall's list of publishers of predatory journals. Vincent Racaniello, professor of microbiology and immunology at Columbia University, described the claim as "completely wrong".[5][6][7]
> 
> Anti-vaccination views
> Classen proposes that vaccines cause diabetes by causing the release of interferons, causing an autoimmune state leading to immune-mediated type 1 diabetes,[8] and he is quoted on many anti-vaccine websites, such as that of the National Vaccine Information Center. His work has been criticized, for example, journalist Amy Wallace wrote that the vaccine-diabetes link "...relies on the flawed work of one doctor [Classen], who gathered data on a slew of vaccines and failed to follow standard study protocols. No other study — including those using the same data — could reproduce the results."[9] Independent studies that have investigated the potential link between vaccines and diabetes include one, published by Frank DeStefano, which "did not find an increased risk of type 1 diabetes associated with any of the routinely recommended childhood vaccines."[10]  "


I am a little slower to stereotype people as vaxers or anti-vaxers since both are at extremes in the vaccination spectrum.  As with many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle and highly dependent on the individual.  Time will likely show that the great percentage of younger, healthier people did not need the vaccine and to label them as anti- is very unscientific.  Equally unscientific is the shotgun approach suggesting everyone should be vaccinated.  Be slow to put people down.


----------



## digifoss

Doing further research of your own is always the best way to verify something that you have heard or read.   I haven't done any double checking on HoneyNut's post but I do think Wikipedia is far from an authoritative information source.  The Wikipedia article's Comments about Mr. Classen like "His views are disputed and considered unverified."  can easily be applied to anyone in any field, Dr Fauci for example, Bill Gates.


----------



## HoneyNut

digifoss said:


> I do think Wikipedia is far from an authoritative information source


The wikipedia article has references to the sources for the information, I agree that they themselves are not a authoritative source, but are an encyclopedia that is a convenience to consolidate info from other sources.
My dad used to sell encyclopedia sets as a part-time evening job when I was a kid.  I guess that is yet another job that was lost to the computer age.


----------



## Keesha

JonDouglas said:


> The inherent problem in determining the extent to which a vaccine has positive and/or negative effects is one of statistical inference.  Statistical inference is the process of using data analysis to infer a probability of some effect happening (e.g., there's a 60% chance a vaccine shot will prevent or cause something to happen).  Statistical inference is used when it is not possible to apply direct, empirical observation (i.e., I can see it happen with my own eyes).
> 
> Studies based on statistical inferences can be built on shaky grounds caused by too few or too narrow a range of samples, improper identification and counting of events and bad modeling.  It isn't all that hard to create a statistical model that tries to show just about anything you want and the average, non-mathematical person won't know the difference.  Also, where there's some polarization of an issue (e.g., Is there really global warming?  Is the vaccine cause dangerous? ) each side will have  its studies, models and articles and often attempt to denigrate, disprove or otherwise invalidate the other's position, often claiming "junk science" .  The two things that send my warning flag up the pole are, "The science is settled." and "It's junk science."  Conclusions based on statistical inference are seldom settled and often junky to some degree.  Finally, thinking that "scientific" studies are not influenced by money is naive.


I agree. I took statistics for my biology course and it showed how most  statistics are biased depending on who is doing them and why they are being done. Pharmaceutical companies finance their findings which are then approved by FDA in an effort to sell to the general public. With money, any favourable results can be obtained whether true or false. With the right amount of money, an official statistic can be done to produce the exact results wanted. Then with the right amount of money, the right advertising as well as the right people advertising,  can certainly shift a majority of people in a ‘certain’ direction. This in itself can become somewhat cultish at times as people gobble it up.


----------



## Rosemarie

Are there more details? Some people have suffered quite severe side-effects, others nothing at all. Is there a connection? How do they know this, when the vaccine is new but Alzheimers takes a while to develop?


----------



## squatting dog

Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist. He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.
So, because he doesn't approved of some vaccines, we should then automatically throw aside the fact that he is an obviously well trained immunologist and might possibly have some valid points?  That seems a might narrow minded to me.


----------



## digifoss

Anytime I see labels such "anti-" this or "anti-" that or terms like "conspiracy theorist" attached to someone's name like some of  it is here, I question the authors creditability and I am automatically suspect of the authors true agenda in writing about that person.


----------



## JonDouglas

digifoss said:


> Anytime I see labels such "anti-" this or "anti-" that or terms like "conspiracy theorist" attached to someone's name like some of  it is here, I question the authors creditability and I am automatically suspect of the authors true agenda in writing about that person.


As you know, those are stereotyping labels thrown up, often as smokescreens or out of cognitive dissonance, when someone or something disagrees with their view, position or beliefs.


----------



## Lethe200

old medic said:


> WHY???? don't you trust it to protect you?


I do trust the vaccines, which is why I got them. However, there is still a 10% chance of getting infected, and I DON'T WANT to pass SARS-COV2 on to ANYONE ELSE.

I have friends who are severely immunocompromised. They are recovering from Stage 4 cancers - one from breast cancer, one from ovarian cancer. It would be extraordinarily callous of me to risk any chances of infecting them, when the vaccines cannot protect THEM*.

_* People who are immunocompromised have little or no ability to generate ANY antibodies, no matter what the infectious danger is, and thus vaccines do not help them._


----------



## StarSong

Lethe200 said:


> I do trust the vaccines, which is why I got them. However, there is still a 10% chance of getting infected, and I DON'T WANT to pass SARS-COV2 on to ANYONE ELSE.
> 
> I have friends who are severely immunocompromised. They are recovering from Stage 4 cancers - one from breast cancer, one from ovarian cancer. It would be extraordinarily callous of me to risk any chances of infecting them, when the vaccines cannot protect THEM*.
> 
> _* People who are immunocompromised have little or no ability to generate ANY antibodies, no matter what the infectious danger is, and thus vaccines do not help them._


I have the same situation in my life.  One friend had a double lung transplant last year, another has been fighting cancer for the past four years and is only 18 years old, and a third has had breast cancer and now ovarian cancer.    

Also, one never knows what health battle the person behind you in the checkout lane may be fighting.


----------



## HoneyNut

digifoss said:


> Anytime I see labels such "anti-" this or "anti-" that or terms like "conspiracy theorist" attached to someone's name like some of it is here, I question the authors creditability and I am automatically suspect of the authors true agenda in writing about that person.



Humans are just such contrary beings!  You can take two people who are really nice and like each other, and go to one of them and say lots and lots of NICE things about the person they like, and just from contrary human nature that person is extremely likely to respond with some exceptions.

But I'm really surprised that so many responses are focused on who said what about who, instead of on the part of the quote that said no one has been able to reproduce this person's results, even with the same study data.

I feel like I quoted a statement who called a person a charlatan for claiming they created gold from iron because no one else had been able to create gold from iron and chemically it makes no sense.  And then the responses here were all about not trusting someone who called another person a charlatan, rampart suspicion that someone wants to prevent you from creating gold, and totally overlooking any of the factual scientific part of the discussion.


----------



## Don M.

I'm not a scientist, or medical professional....but when we saw the rising number if Covid cases over the past year, that was enough to get our full attention.  When the vaccines started becoming available, it didn't take us long to figure out that the vaccines were a far better option than getting this virus.  We don't have any pre-existing conditions that would increase the risk of side effects, so in February we got our first shot of the Moderna vaccine, then the 2nd in March.  Outside of a minor pain in the arm for a day or two, we haven't noticed any changes.  At least now, we can feel less apprehensive about visiting the kids, and going out in public.  That, in itself, is a Big Plus.


----------



## Aunt Marg

Gaer said:


> I wish this would have been posted prior to my stupidly getting the shot!
> Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I've ever done.
> *Wo!  That list is getting awfully long!*


And I only see the list getting longer and more scary as the truth comes out more and more related to.


----------



## Aunt Marg

MarciKS said:


> You guys are also always saying that anything in the media can't be trusted but you trust all this stuff you plaster this site with in an effort to scare folks into not getting vaccinated. *I didn't worry about all the media. I decided for myself that I was willing to risk it if it kept me from dying from this virus. All the news reports in the world wouldn't have changed that decision.* But in one breath you guys get upset because you insult us we insult you and everyone is posting stuff they supposedly don't trust but they put it up anyway for all of us to read and bicker about I don't understand why? If your intention is to warn people who I'm sure see the same reports as everyone else...and you don't trust the media for anything...why post it?


Talk is cheap, isn't it, but come the day you are stricken with the likes of ALS (heaven forbid), account having had the vaccine, my bet is you won't be so brash as to having made the right choice in getting the vaccine and outright ignoring reports and articles related to.


----------



## fmdog44

How many COVID deaths are there in the world to date?
How many recovered victims are suffering painful if not frightening side effects?
Dying is one thing but at least die easily with dignity and slowly choking to death over a period of a few days to a few months has no dignity.
Compare the numbers then you make your own calls. I am very glad I like millions and millions of others, am fully vaccinated.

PolitiFact | The coronavirus vaccine doesn’t cause Alzheimer’s, ALS


----------



## Paco Dennis

I talked with my Doctor (GP) about getting the shots last Friday. I have some health issues that are are not pleasant to say the least. I asked him if I should be vaccinated, and will it increase the suffering I am experiencing. He said No, get the shots. So I made an appointment for this Saturday morning to get the first one (Pfizer). I have put this off for about a month because I don't want to feel worse NOW.  I still don't know if I will go to the appointment. Maybe I should flip a coin.


----------



## chic

Aunt Marg said:


> Talk is cheap, isn't it, but come the day you are stricken with the likes of ALS (heaven forbid), account having had the vaccine, my bet is you won't be so brash as to having made the right choice in getting the vaccine and outright ignoring reports and articles related to.


This is what I think about too. In my family autoimmune diseases like ALS and MS run on both sides. It's a great risk for many, but I feel worse for someone like me with this family history. This is what so many don't consider when they "just want you to get vaccinated". We're people, not numbers. It matters way more for some than for others.


----------



## Sunny

I just finished reading an article about how desperate the people in India are to get some medical help with the wave of Covid that is raging all over that country. There is a shortage of medical supplies, particularly oxygen, and even a shortage of beds. Many of the deaths have taken place right outside of the hospitals, as they didn't have room for any more patients. Desperately sick people and their families are running around from hospital to hospital, trying to find a bed and some medical treatment for their loved one. The article told about several people who heartbreakingly died of Covid, gasping for breath, when they could have been saved if there had only been enough oxygen. Most of those patients were young, or youngish, people; it showed one man in his 40's, posing with his three little children. He was a big, strapping-looking fellow. He died because his family could not find any oxygen for him, after paying a fortune for an oxygen tank to use at home.

They do have the vaccine, but are slow and disorganized about getting it distributed to people. And for the very sick people described in this article, the vaccine would have been too late anyway.

Maybe if people in this country heard more stories about the hardships in other parts of the world, there would be less nonsense being invented and spread around, to try to scare people away from the vaccine that we are fortunate enough to be able to get. Most of us don't realize how lucky we are!


----------



## Becky1951

"less nonsense being invented and spread around, to try to scare people away from the vaccine"

What's being invented? The deaths from the vaccine?  People having to be treated for serious blood clots?  How do you know for *certain* any adverse information regarding the vaccine is invented?

Who is trying to scare people?


----------



## Buckeye

Lots of fear mongering in this thread.  Here's an idea - if you think it is a bad idea, don't get the shot, and if you think it is a good idea, then get the shot.  Most of us don't need anyone on here to "educate" us about the risks and benefits and all of us have access to the same online information, and can digest it as we see fit.  

YMMV


----------



## Becky1951

Buckeye said:


> Lots of fear mongering in this thread.  Here's an idea - if you think it is a bad idea, don't get the shot, and if you think it is a good idea, then get the shot.  Most of us don't need anyone on here to "educate" us about the risks and benefits and all of us have access to the same online information, and can digest it as we see fit.
> 
> YMMV


I agree 100%, anyone wanting the vaccine should get it, those
not wanting it or waiting should do so as they wish.

But why is posting an article that has any kind of negative information regarding the vaccine "fear mongering?"

"Most of us don't need anyone on here to "educate" us about the risks and benefits and all of us have access to the same online information, and can digest it as we see fit."

Then why are there so many articles posted here regarding the vaccine?

Is it only ok to post positive information regarding the vaccine? Seems a bit one sided IMO.


----------



## win231

MarciKS said:


> I never see you guys post anything except bad stuff. You don't ever see anything but that anywhere?





Sunny said:


> I just finished reading an article about how desperate the people in India are to get some medical help with the wave of Covid that is raging all over that country. There is a shortage of medical supplies, particularly oxygen, and even a shortage of beds. Many of the deaths have taken place right outside of the hospitals, as they didn't have room for any more patients. Desperately sick people and their families are running around from hospital to hospital, trying to find a bed and some medical treatment for their loved one. The article told about several people who heartbreakingly died of Covid, gasping for breath, when they could have been saved if there had only been enough oxygen. Most of those patients were young, or youngish, people; it showed one man in his 40's, posing with his three little children. He was a big, strapping-looking fellow. He died because his family could not find any oxygen for him, after paying a fortune for an oxygen tank to use at home.
> 
> They do have the vaccine, but are slow and disorganized about getting it distributed to people. And for the very sick people described in this article, the vaccine would have been too late anyway.
> 
> Maybe if people in this country heard more stories about the hardships in other parts of the world, there would be less nonsense being invented and spread around, to try to scare people away from the vaccine that we are fortunate enough to be able to get. Most of us don't realize how lucky we are!


It isn't as simple as a lack of vaccines.
Third-World Countries where poverty is common & clean water & decent nutrition is uncommon always have higher mortality rates from all diseases.  Such living places a burden on the immune system & makes death from survivable disease much more likely.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> I agree 100%, anyone wanting the vaccine should get it, those
> not wanting it or waiting should do so as they wish.
> 
> But why is posting an article that has any kind of negative information regarding the vaccine "fear mongering?"


Because such information shakes their confidence they'd like to have in the vaccine.  _And their confidence is already shaky to begin with, otherwise it wouldn't bother them._
When you tell people what they don't want to hear, they often react with insults.


----------



## digifoss

Sunny said:


> ...
> 
> Maybe if people in this country heard more stories about the hardships in other parts of the world, ...


I don't know how I could possibly hear more than I already know about the suffering of people that is happening in other places, it's sad but it isn't my fault and I am not going on a guilt trip about it for anybody;  hearing about it a million more times isn't going to help anything here in the U S either.  People in India are dying from WUHAN / COVID because they are a poor third world country with a lack of every necessity and service needed for a people to be healthy, NOT because they didn't wear their mask or get the WUHAN  vaccine....



Sunny said:


> ..... there would be less nonsense being invented and spread around, to try to scare people away from the vaccine that we are fortunate enough to be able to get.



What in the world are you talking about ?  I pay pretty close attention to things and I see a LOT more nonsense and I mean a LOT from those who are trying to scare people into GETTING the vaccine, and belittling anyone that has a reason for not wanting it  than the other way around.   There's no shortage of evidence for that on this forum just as a small example..


----------



## Geezerette

My feeling is that any adult who has an opportunity to get the COVID vaccine or by extension any other vaccine and refuses it for any but the most serious medically accepted health conditions should be denied treatment if they do get the disease.
 They are tacitly counting on the idea that if they do get sick  they will be cared for no matter what happens. Never mind the unnecessary pressure on already overstretched healthcare providers. They are choosing to gamble  not only with their own lives but with others’ as well.


----------



## Becky1951

"They are choosing to gamble not only with their own lives but with others’ as well."

As per my last Dr's visit, mutually agreed due to health reasons I should not get the vaccine.

But I'm curious to know how I'm a gamble to others?
I follow all other guidelines, I don't really go anywhere. If by chance I were to run into someone vaccinated, they are protected right? If I run into someone who isn't going to be vaccinated, they know the risks just as much as anyone else who has decided to not be vaccinated.


----------



## JonDouglas

Article:  *Why Johnson & Johnson's COVID-19 vaccine is probably the best shot*  That is the title of the article, not my words.  The article does incorrectly state that you've no choice on which vaccine to get.  I did not find that to be true and was able to wait and choose J&J. 

Just another data point and certainly not something worth a debate.  Jury is out on all the vaccines until we see more longer term results.


----------



## John cycling

Sunny said:


> I just finished reading an article about how desperate the people in India are to get some medical help with the wave of Covid that is raging all over that country. There is a shortage of medical supplies, particularly oxygen, and even a shortage of beds. Many of the deaths have taken place right outside of the hospitals, as they didn't have room for any more patients. Desperately sick people and their families are running around from hospital to hospital, trying to find a bed and some medical treatment for their loved one.



Why people are dying in India.  <--
Deaths in India before and after the vaccinations.  <--
Woman in India showing what is actually happening <-- plus discussion.
India gas leak, reported in New York Post as a COVID surge swallowing people. <--


----------



## garyt1957

digifoss said:


> I think I may have already had it last June.  My test was negative but I think it was a false negative.


Get an antibody test


----------



## garyt1957

Becky1951 said:


> I agree 100%, anyone wanting the vaccine should get it, those
> not wanting it or waiting should do so as they wish.
> 
> But why is posting an article that has any kind of negative information regarding the vaccine "fear mongering?"
> 
> "Most of us don't need anyone on here to "educate" us about the risks and benefits and all of us have access to the same online information, and can digest it as we see fit."
> 
> Then why are there so many articles posted here regarding the vaccine?
> 
> Is it only ok to post positive information regarding the vaccine? Seems a bit one sided IMO.


I like seeing both pro and con vaccine articles.  I can't catch every article out there so appreciate people posting ones they find interesting


----------



## Ladybj

garyt1957 said:


> I have reservations about the vaccine but still decided to get it. I can understand why others would choose not to get it. I'm worried about long term effects but at 63, what is long term? As I've posted elsewhere my nephew's MIL and FIL died of covid within 5 days of each other last week.  They were not vaccinated for some reason. Would they trade the chance of long term effects to be alive now? I think they would and I know they're kids would.


So sorry to hear of your loss. Did they have underlying conditions?  It is interesting how some people recover and some don't.  My 2nd mom "allegedly" had Covid - she is 83 yrs old - stayed in the hospital for about a month.  However, she had underlying conditions..which was not due to COVID.  She said she do not want the vaccine.


----------



## Ladybj

Becky1951 said:


> I agree 100%, anyone wanting the vaccine should get it, those
> not wanting it or waiting should do so as they wish.
> 
> But why is posting an article that has any kind of negative information regarding the vaccine "fear mongering?"
> 
> "Most of us don't need anyone on here to "educate" us about the risks and benefits and all of us have access to the same online information, and can digest it as we see fit."
> 
> Then why are there so many articles posted here regarding the vaccine?
> 
> Is it only ok to post positive information regarding the vaccine? Seems a bit one sided IMO.


All info on the vaccine is good info....JMO.  I found out sooo much info but will not post it on this site or anywhere else.  I don't think info is "fear mongering".. everyone have their own theory and opinions.


----------



## Ladybj

Becky1951 said:


> "They are choosing to gamble not only with their own lives but with others’ as well."
> 
> As per my last Dr's visit, mutually agreed due to health reasons I should not get the vaccine.
> 
> But I'm curious to know how I'm a gamble to others?
> I follow all other guidelines, I don't really go anywhere. If by chance I were to run into someone vaccinated, they are protected right? If I run into someone who isn't going to be vaccinated, they know the risks just as much as anyone else who has decided to not be vaccinated.


Great post.  I was advised as well.. due to health reasons  I was told "better safe than sorry" not to take the vaccine.


----------



## Ladybj

Geezerette said:


> My feeling is that any adult who has an opportunity to get the COVID vaccine or by extension any other vaccine and refuses it for any but the most serious medically accepted health conditions should be denied treatment if they do get the disease.
> They are tacitly counting on the idea that if they do get sick  they will be cared for no matter what happens. Never mind the unnecessary pressure on already overstretched healthcare providers. They are choosing to gamble  not only with their own lives but with others’ as well.


 My 2nd mom did not have the vaccine. She is 83 years old and "allegedly" had COVID. She stayed in the hospital for about a month.. she fought it and is doing ok.. She had underlying conditions which had nothing to do with COVID. Some people that are hospitalized has underlying conditions which has NOTHING to do with COVID so they should not be treated because they did not have the Covid shot?????


----------



## Dana

_*What I am finding difficult to understand is... if one's doctor advises you against having the vaccine, then you have good reason not to get it. *_

*However, why is it necessary to post negative articles and make negative comments. Is this because one's conscience is rearing its head?  Is this a deceitful effort to dissuade others from getting the vaccine? *


----------



## Ladybj

digifoss said:


> I don't know how I could possibly hear more than I already know about the suffering of people that is happening in other places, it's sad but it isn't my fault and I am not going on a guilt trip about it for anybody;  hearing about it a million more times isn't going to help anything here in the U S either.  People in India are dying from WUHAN / COVID because they are a poor third world country with a lack of every necessity and service needed for a people to be healthy, NOT because they didn't wear their mask or get the WUHAN  vaccine....
> 
> 
> 
> What in the world are you talking about ?  I pay pretty close attention to things and I see a LOT more nonsense and I mean a LOT from those who are trying to scare people into GETTING the vaccine, and belittling anyone that has a reason for not wanting it  than the other way around.   There's no shortage of evidence for that on this forum just as a small example..


GREAT POST!!!


----------



## Ladybj

Truth be told I was a bit on edge when my hubby got his 2nd shot due to an issue he had with the first shot but he chose to get the 2nd one.  From all the info I came cross I did not talk him out of it.. it was his choice.  So far, from the 2nd shot he is having headaches which he never get.  I pray the headaches don't get worst and he has no other side effects.  I feel if he did get Covid, he would have been one of the ones that would have fought through it and been ok.  However, he chose the vaccine which was his choice.


----------



## Becky1951

Dana said:


> _*What I am finding difficult to understand is... if one's doctor advises you against having the vaccine, then you have good reason not to get it. *_
> 
> *However, why is it necessary to post negative articles and make negative comments. Is this because one's conscience is rearing its head?  Is this a deceitful effort to dissuade others from getting the vacine? *


Once again, its information. Why should only positive information be posted? Why shouldn't negative information be posted? Its a choice for everyone as to getting the vaccine or not. Its information. Just because some don't like that information doesn't mean it should be censored and omitted.  

Is all the name calling and negative comments and trying to shame those not being vaccinated a deceitful effort to persuade those not getting vaccinated to get vaccinated?


----------



## win231

Dana said:


> _*What I am finding difficult to understand is... if one's doctor advises you against having the vaccine, then you have good reason not to get it. *_
> 
> *However, why is it necessary to post negative articles and make negative comments. Is this because one's conscience is rearing its head?  Is this a deceitful effort to dissuade others from getting the vacine? *


Sharing information is not "Dissuading."  That's your misinterpretation.


----------



## Dana

Becky1951 said:


> Once again, its information. Why should only positive information be posted? Why shouldn't negative information be posted? Its a choice for everyone as to getting the vaccine or not. Its information. Just because some don't like that information doesn't mean it should be censored and omitted.
> 
> Is all the name calling and negative comments and trying to shame those not being vaccinated a deceitful effort to persuade those not getting vaccinated to get vaccinated?



*Becky...I did not mention your name...my post was a general one. You always jump on whatever I say and I have quite frankly, had enough, so I am now going to ignore you. No longer being able to see your posts will enhance my day. *


----------



## win231

Dana said:


> *Becky...I did not mention your name...my post was a general one. You always jump on whatever I say and I have quite frankly, had enough, so I am now going to ignore you. No longer being able to see your posts will enhance my day. *


I'm sure it will enhance her's, too.


----------



## Dana

The United States remains the country with the most cases and deaths from COVID-19, at more than 32 million and 574,000 respectively.

But as vaccination efforts in the US have ramped up over the past few months, new infections — and therefore further deaths — have finally begun to slow.

The following chart shows how deaths per million people in India has increased to nearly that of the United States.

Read the rest here ….

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-29/india-brazil-us-turkey-mexico-covid-19-death-toll/100100020


----------



## mellowyellow

After watching very high numbers of covid cases and deaths in the UK drop down to almost nothing after the vaccination, I’ve had second thoughts about this. It’s not misinformation, it’s a fact.   Without realizing, I think we were becoming like the crazy anti-vaxer mob, ill-informed hysterical twits who would rather see the world revert to putting children with polio into iron lungs rather than having a vaccination for it. So I won’t be posting anything negative about *any* of the approved vaccines in future.


----------



## Becky1951

Dana said:


> *Becky...I did not mention your name...my post was a general one. You always jump on whatever I say and I have quite frankly, had enough, so I am now going to ignore you. No longer being able to see your posts will enhance my day. *


And I never said you called me names, it was in general. You've read posts where anyone who posts anything negative about the vaccines they were called names or tried to be shamed. 

BTW, nice way to avoid answering the questions I asked.


----------



## Becky1951

Dana said:


> *Becky...I did not mention your name...my post was a general one. You always jump on whatever I say and I have quite frankly, had enough, so I am now going to ignore you. No longer being able to see your posts will enhance my day. *


And I never said you called me names, it was in general. You've read posts where anyone who posts anything negative about the vaccines they were called names or tried to be shamed. 

BTW, nice way to avoid answering the questions I asked.


----------



## chic

I have an important question which does not apply to everybody but will apply to many in the world.

As everyone here knows I cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition so HTH am I supposed to get vaccinated even if I wanted to? You have to wear a mask to be vaccinated right?

You'd be surprised how many of my neighbors who know this still ask me if I've been vaccinated. How is that supposed to happen if I can't wear a mask in the first place.

I mention this for those in the world who may want to be vaccinated and cannot wear a mask to get vaccinated.


----------



## Buckeye

Well, here's some more information from USC.  Take it for what it's worth...

USC Study about vaccination


----------



## JonDouglas

Buckeye said:


> Well, here's some more information from USC.  Take it for what it's worth...
> 
> USC Study about vaccination


Does anybody know if "Publish or Perish" is still the watchword in academia?   It would be interesting to know how many of these university studies are student theses.  Bringing these questions to mind was this bit of information from the study:

_The data was collected from participants in the Understanding America Study, which is a nationally representative,* probability-based online panel* of adults who answer tracking survey questions every two weeks._​


----------



## Buckeye

JonDouglas said:


> Does anybody know if "Publish or Perish" is still the watchword in academia?   It would be interesting to know how many of these university studies are student theses.  Bringing these questions to mind was this bit of information from the study:
> 
> _The data was collected from participants in the Understanding America Study, which is a nationally representative,* probability-based online panel* of adults who answer tracking survey questions every two weeks._​


Hmmm.  Glad to see you challenging this.  Here's what you said back in post #19

"_Edit Update Note: When someone or something tries to denigrate or "put down" some opposing voice, view or thought on an issue: you know its time to give that view, voice or idea more, not less, attention."_

Thanks for playing.


----------



## JonDouglas

Buckeye said:


> Hmmm.  Glad to see you challenging this.  Here's what you said back in post #19
> 
> "_Edit Update Note: When someone or something tries to denigrate or "put down" some opposing voice, view or thought on an issue: you know its time to give that view, voice or idea more, not less, attention."_
> 
> Thanks for playing.


I think you've confused the concept of asking questions with challenge.  Just so you know, questions are often the best response to studies like this.  It's what people who have some basis in math and science do.  I've no knowledge of whether the study is good or bad and am not challenging it.  In the future, please don't project your thoughts on others.  Try asking questions (e.g., "Are you challenging this?).


----------



## Buckeye

JonDouglas said:


> I think you've confused the concept of asking questions with challenge.  Just so you know, questions are often the best response to studies like this.  It's what people who have some basis in math and science do.  I've no knowledge of whether the study is good or bad and am not challenging it.  In the future, please don't project your thoughts on others.  Try asking questions (e.g., "Are you challenging this?).


Sorry, but you can't unsay what you said, and I'm just using your own words.  You were clearly trying to "denigrate" the study by raising issues about it.


----------



## Dana

chic said:


> I have an important question which does not apply to everybody but will apply to many in the world.
> 
> As everyone here knows I cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition so HTH am I supposed to get vaccinated even if I wanted to? You have to wear a mask to be vaccinated right?
> 
> You'd be surprised how many of my neighbors who know this still ask me if I've been vaccinated. How is that supposed to happen if I can't wear a mask in the first place.
> 
> I mention this for those in the world who may want to be vaccinated and cannot wear a mask to get vaccinated.



_In your circumstances...you may be allowed to wear a face shield. Ask your doctor etc._


----------



## Dana

.
_Doctoral students are often led to believe that to make headway in academia or to stand out from the crowd in order to get grants or fellowships they need to publish frequently and publish a lot, otherwise they perish. 

The truth is, and I think it hasn’t changed since my days at University…most British universities don’t make scientific publications a requirement for the award of the doctorate...don't know how it works in the US.
._


----------



## JonDouglas

Buckeye said:


> Sorry, but you can't unsay what you said, and I'm just using your own words.  You were clearly trying to "denigrate" the study by raising issues about it.



Asking questions and pointing out an important aspect to the study does not constitute a challenge; however, you seem bent on trying to assign something to me that really isn't there. Nowhere did I say anything negative or positive.  If, however, that's the kind of interpretation and behavior behavior that floats your boat, good luck with it.


----------



## Gary O'

Wife and I are not getting 'the shot'
I was on the fence, but after our son died earlier this month, four days after the Moderna vaccine....no thanks

Either way, its a crap shoot.

All in all, no matter how much research you do
Know this; 
You* are *the research

Pick yer poison


----------



## StarSong

chic said:


> I have an important question which does not apply to everybody but will apply to many in the world.
> 
> As everyone here knows I cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition so HTH am I supposed to get vaccinated even if I wanted to? You have to wear a mask to be vaccinated right?
> 
> You'd be surprised how many of my neighbors who know this still ask me if I've been vaccinated. How is that supposed to happen if I can't wear a mask in the first place.
> 
> I mention this for those in the world who may want to be vaccinated and cannot wear a mask to get vaccinated.


People can wear face shields or mask up for the literally two minutes they're exposed to a vaccinator in a drive through vaccine venue.  They can also phone vaccine centers and ask what to do.   

Most people with serious health challenges figure work-arounds with very little fuss or drama.


----------



## garyt1957

Ladybj said:


> So sorry to hear of your loss. Did they have underlying conditions?  It is interesting how some people recover and some don't.  My 2nd mom "allegedly" had Covid - she is 83 yrs old - stayed in the hospital for about a month.  However, she had underlying conditions..which was not due to COVID.  She said she do not want the vaccine.


They were not the healthiest people around for sure.


----------



## Buckeye

JonDouglas said:


> Asking questions and pointing out an important aspect to the study does not constitute a challenge; however, you seem bent on trying to assign something to me that really isn't there. Nowhere did I say anything negative or positive.  If, however, that's the kind of interpretation and behavior behavior that floats your boat, good luck with it.


Sorry, but once again, you are trying to unsay what you said.  Accusations are often posed as questions.  Do you still beat your wife?  And yes you were clearly trying to impugn the study be questioning the status of the authors, etc. It really is there, in your own words.  

And it isn't about me - it's about what you said in your posts, and your feeble efforts to spin them away.  If that floats your boat, good luck with it.


----------



## Buckeye

Gary O' said:


> Wife and I are not getting 'the shot'
> I was on the fence, but after our son died earlier this month, four days after the Moderna vaccine....no thanks
> 
> Either way, its a crap shoot.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much research you do
> Know this;
> You* are *the research
> 
> Pick yer poison


So sorry to hear about your son.  My condolences.


----------



## Sunny

Gary, would you mind telling us what was your son's cause of death?  If you'd rather not, because it's too personal, I understand. But it's hard to tell from what you have written whether his cause of death was the vaccine itself, or something else.


----------



## JonDouglas

Buckeye said:


> Sorry, but once again, you are trying to unsay what you said.  Accusations are often posed as questions.  Do you still beat your wife?  And yes you were clearly trying to impugn the study be questioning the status of the authors, etc. It really is there, in your own words.
> 
> And it isn't about me - it's about what you said in your posts, and your feeble efforts to spin them away.  If that floats your boat, good luck with it.


Perhaps someday you'll better appreciate how questions are used to both get people to think and discover if there any any hot spots to be aware of.  It helps to remember that a response to posed questions can be quite telling in a number of ways.  I trust you've noticed that a lot of threads in this forum start with a question, clever people that they are.

Best regards,


----------



## Homeschoolie

I was having very severe slow thinking, bad memory, etc. problems. Started taking well researched natural supplements to treat it. I VERY much improved. 

But then plateaued at my much improved level. Nothing I did brought any further improvement. This went on for years.

UNTIL I had the one shot Johnson and Johnson from the Netherlands. (I am a firm believer that the source that makes substances we use makes a difference too.) 

Within  a week or so after vaccination my mind improved a lot. I am now quicker thinking, and sharper thinking almost like I was years ago before my decline. I had always had  a very quick mind.
It is like night and day difference. I had changed nothing else in my supplements, diet, lifestyle, habits to trigger a change.

For those of you who will jump on this as a vaccine sales pitch or made up story etc. 
It is not. It is just sharing what my experience was.  I have nothing to gain by making this up and nothing to gain by sharing it. 
All I know is whatever it triggered in my body Yippee. I just hope that the fix is permanent and I don't go back to how I was.


----------



## MarciKS

Aunt Marg said:


> Talk is cheap, isn't it, but come the day you are stricken with the likes of ALS (heaven forbid), account having had the vaccine, my bet is you won't be so brash as to having made the right choice in getting the vaccine and outright ignoring reports and articles related to.


I already have health problems. I have more forming as we speak I'm sure. What difference is one more gonna make? We're talking about a future that involves us heading for the grave since we're not gonna live forever. And the odds of me developing this stuff later down the road seem of little importance to me considering the fact that I have COPD and could die whenever. I don't fault anyone for not wanting to take it. I just think sometimes people overreact to all the media sensationalism when they may not have any problems at all. I don't spend all day online looking for reasons to get or not to get the vaccine. ALS or not...Alzheimer's or not...I got it in hopes that I won't die a horrible death for the immediate future. Is it guaranteed...no. But nothing in life is.

And just as a side note... @Becky1951 ...I'm in no way mad at you or wanting to ignore your posts. You have your opinions and I have mine. Every time we disagree with someone else's opinion on this site the first thing that happens is usually name calling and mocking. Then the next thing to happen is people complain because someone has disagreed with them. If it's your right to post it...it's my right to speak my opinion just like it is yours. I don't know why it's ok for one group to post their opinions but when someone opposes that everyone's up in arms about it. You can't have a one sided discussion on a site with varying opinions.


----------



## Becky1951

If its true about the vaccines and Alzheimer's, then most all who are in their late 60's 70's or older may see it as no big deal considering their lifespan, however for the younger generation its a Big deal. Instead of a expected percentage of developing Alzheimer's naturally vs developing Alzheimer's due to a vaccine, that's a big deal IMO.​


----------



## Homeschoolie

Aunt Marg said:


> Talk is cheap, isn't it, but come the day you are stricken with the likes of ALS (heaven forbid), account having had the vaccine, my bet is you won't be so brash as to having made the right choice in getting the vaccine and outright ignoring reports and articles related to.


Vaccines do not alter genes:
However* COVID DOES ALTER GENES. And not in a good way. Many who have had Covid are permanently damaged from having it.*

Four of a hundred from research and medical sources and many independent research scientists.  Some modern cancer and other disease treatments inject directly into cells but a vaccine doesn't inject into a cell nucleus.

Cornell University’s Alliance for Science group, who said no vaccine can genetically modify human DNA. “That’s just a myth, one often spread intentionally by anti-vaccination activists to deliberately generate confusion and mistrust,” Lynas told Reuters. *“Genetic modification would involve the deliberate insertion of foreign DNA into the nucleus of a human cell, and vaccines simply don’t do that.”

Covid-19 alters Genes:*
COVID-19 alters human genes, explaining mystery behind coronavirus 'long haulers' - Study Finds

COVID-19 alters human genes, explaining mystery behind - Freedoms Phoenix

Vacines do not alter genes:
Fact-check: Will a COVID-19 vaccine alter your DNA? - Poynter

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...es-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/


----------



## MarciKS

Becky1951 said:


> If its true about the vaccines and Alzheimer's, then most all who are in their late 60's 70's or older may see it as no big deal considering their lifespan, however for the younger generation its a Big deal. Instead of a expected percentage of developing Alzheimer's naturally vs developing Alzheimer's due to a vaccine, that's a big deal IMO.​


For younger folks I could see that. For us we might get it regardless of the vaccine.

I just hope everything in these articles they're putting out is actual fact. If not then people will be rejecting a vaccine based solely on fear. 

I also understand not wanting to take the vaccine if it's not going to stop the virus. But it would be nice to slow it down and take some of it's strength away so that it might become no more harmful than the flu.


----------



## Homeschoolie

chic said:


> I have an important question which does not apply to everybody but will apply to many in the world.
> 
> As everyone here knows I cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition so HTH am I supposed to get vaccinated even if I wanted to? You have to wear a mask to be vaccinated right?
> 
> You'd be surprised how many of my neighbors who know this still ask me if I've been vaccinated. How is that supposed to happen if I can't wear a mask in the first place.
> 
> I mention this for those in the world who may want to be vaccinated and cannot wear a mask to get vaccinated.


Can you call your private physicians office and/or other medical professionals in your area that are overseeing all of the vaccinations and ask them to make special arrangements?

Before any medical professionals were vaccinated,  my Ophthalmologist and 1 staff member saw and treated me anyway. At that time they were closed. They wore masks and face shields etc. I had a runny nose, scratchy throat etc. but they knew if I said I had not left my house or been exposed and that what I had was my usual bad allergies that I was telling the truth.

Also my doctors, dentists and even my hairdresser before they got vaccinated were only assisting people that they had a long established relationship with because they knew they could trust them to not visit them when they might have undiagnosed covid.

So, If you have a long term trust relationship with a doctor or nurse they should help you.

Also, the outdoor vaccination locations might be willing to make special provision for you since they all have now been vaccinated and anyway it is literally impossible to get enough virus load outdoors to infect them.

Just some thoughts on what might work for you.


----------



## squatting dog

Homeschoolie said:


> Vaccines do not alter genes:
> However COVID DOES ALTER GENES.
> Two of a hundred from research and medical sources and many independent research scientists. Some modern cancer and other disease treatments inject directly into cells but a vaccine doesn't inject into a cell nucleus.
> 
> Cornell University’s Alliance for Science group, who said no vaccine can genetically modify human DNA. “That’s just a myth, one often spread intentionally by anti-vaccination activists to deliberately generate confusion and mistrust,” Lynas told Reuters. *“Genetic modification would involve the deliberate insertion of foreign DNA into the nucleus of a human cell, and vaccines simply don’t do that.”
> 
> Covid-19 alters Genes:*
> COVID-19 alters human genes, explaining mystery behind coronavirus 'long haulers' - Study Finds
> 
> COVID-19 alters human genes, explaining mystery behind - Freedoms Phoenix
> 
> Vacines do not alter genes:
> Fact-check: Will a COVID-19 vaccine alter your DNA? - Poynter
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...es-are-not-gene-therapy-as-some-are-claiming/



If you read the original article... it was the Zinc ions tha have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases.
The zinc was part of the vaccine, so yes, technically the vaccine does not alter DNA. However, the Zinc ion has shown the "POSSIBILITY" of penetrating the DNA nucleus.


----------



## Homeschoolie

Geezerette said:


> My feeling is that any adult who has an opportunity to get the COVID vaccine or by extension any other vaccine and refuses it for any but the most serious medically accepted health conditions should be denied treatment if they do get the disease.
> They are tacitly counting on the idea that if they do get sick  they will be cared for no matter what happens. Never mind the unnecessary pressure on already overstretched healthcare providers. They are choosing to gamble  not only with their own lives but with others’ as well.


AGEED, many people go through life making choices that put a burden on everyone else. I am always against any type of communistic like control, but in this case I am not.

EVERY kind of business and medical care facility should be allowed to deny service to everyone (with the exceptions you noted) who can't show a valid vaccination card.

They already can deny service with "No shoes, No shirt No service". This is far more serious then a missing pair of shoes and a bare hairy chest!

It is the only fair approach for the responsible people who always end up picking up the tab and cleaning up the mess from the uncaring selfish.

In addition, When their lungs are damaged put their names on the bottom of the transplant wait list.


----------



## JonDouglas

Homeschoolie said:


> AGEED, many people go through life making choices that put a burden on everyone else. I am always against any type of communistic like control, but in this case I am not.
> 
> EVERY kind of business and medical care facility should be allowed to deny service to everyone (with the exceptions you noted) who can't show a valid vaccination card.
> 
> They already can deny service with "No shoes, No shirt No service". This is far more serious then a missing pair of shoes and a bare hairy chest!
> 
> It is the only fair approach for the responsible people who always end up picking up the tab and cleaning up the mess from the uncaring selfish.
> 
> In addition, When their lungs are damaged put their names on the bottom of the transplant wait list.


Out of curiosity, how should businesses and medical services demanding vaccination cards deal with (1) those legitimately vaccinated who've lost or forgotten their card?  (2) the growing business of fake/counterfeit vaccine cards? or  (3) the hippocratic oath for medical providers?  Are we about to form a new government bureaucracy to issue and enforce a vaccinated license?  Will the unvaccinated be forced to wear some form of designation like the jews were in nazi Germany?  How far will this go?


----------



## StarSong

JonDouglas said:


> Out of curiosity, how should businesses and medical services demanding vaccination cards deal with (1) those legitimately vaccinated who've lost or forgotten their card?  (2) the growing business of fake/counterfeit vaccine cards? or  (3) the hippocratic oath for medical providers?  Are we about to form a new government bureaucracy to issue and enforce a vaccinated license?  Will the unvaccinated be forced to wear some form of designation like the jews were in nazi Germany?  How far will this go?


*Godwin's law*, short for *Godwin's law* (or *rule*) *of Nazi analogies*,[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler becomes more likely.[2][3] That is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which usually dampens discussion.


----------



## JonDouglas

StarSong said:


> *Godwin's law*, short for *Godwin's law* (or *rule*) *of Nazi analogies*,[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler becomes more likely.[2][3] That is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which usually dampens discussion.


That's all fine, but consider the possibility that it should be a real concern and how you would address the issue rather than attempting to discount the analogy.


----------



## MarciKS

chic said:


> I have an important question which does not apply to everybody but will apply to many in the world.
> 
> As everyone here knows I cannot wear a mask due to a medical condition so HTH am I supposed to get vaccinated even if I wanted to? You have to wear a mask to be vaccinated right?
> 
> You'd be surprised how many of my neighbors who know this still ask me if I've been vaccinated. How is that supposed to happen if I can't wear a mask in the first place.
> 
> I mention this for those in the world who may want to be vaccinated and cannot wear a mask to get vaccinated.


I would think any outdoor vaccination site would be fine. One where you could drive through. If I were you...they're wearing masks and then some...I would just explain it to them that you can't wear a mask but want to be vaccinated and see what happens. Worst case senario they say no. If they do perhaps you could place a call to your physician and get a note sent to you to show them so they have to vaccinate you outside. If you don't at least try how will you ever know?


----------



## StarSong

JonDouglas said:


> That's all fine, but consider the possibility that it should be a real concern and how you would address the issue rather than attempting to discount the analogy.


I dismiss it because it's not a real concern.
If you believe it is, I can't imagine why you haven't already packed your bags in hopes of getting out before the SS arrives at your door to check your identification.


----------



## MarciKS

JonDouglas said:


> Out of curiosity, how should businesses and medical services demanding vaccination cards deal with (1) those legitimately vaccinated who've lost or forgotten their card?  (2) the growing business of fake/counterfeit vaccine cards? or  (3) the hippocratic oath for medical providers?  Are we about to form a new government bureaucracy to issue and enforce a vaccinated license?  Will the unvaccinated be forced to wear some form of designation like the jews were in nazi Germany?  How far will this go?


At work those of us who don't get a flu vaccination (I don't because I can't) we have to wear a colored dot on our name tag. Then we have to take special precautions during flu season of simply wearing masks to protect the patients as well as ourselves. Perhaps something along those lines would happen without your vaccine card which I haven't heard is going to be used in that way. So if extra protection (which you wear in stores and places now) were necessary for unvaccinated...how is that Hilterish or cruel?


----------



## Becky1951

Wow I pity the person who has a heart attack, or has been shot or whatever, and they are unable to produce their "vaccination card". 

I just don't understand some people's venomous anger!


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> Wow I pity the person who has a heart attack, or has been shot or whatever, and they are unable to produce their "vaccination card".
> 
> I just don't understand some people's venomous anger!


I don't agree with withholding any kind of medical assistance regardless of vaccination status, just for the record.


----------



## MarciKS

Honestly I don't know if they can do that legally.


----------



## win231

JonDouglas said:


> Out of curiosity, how should businesses and medical services demanding vaccination cards deal with (1) those legitimately vaccinated who've lost or forgotten their card?  (2) the growing business of fake/counterfeit vaccine cards? or  (3) the hippocratic oath for medical providers?  Are we about to form a new government bureaucracy to issue and enforce a vaccinated license?  Will the unvaccinated be forced to wear some form of designation like the jews were in nazi Germany?  How far will this go?


It would go as far as the frightened, frustrated, controlling, judgemental, scapegoat seekers want it to go.


----------



## MarciKS

And again with the name calling. Is there any way you can manage to argue without the insults and the name calling?


----------



## Lakeland living

Gary O' said:


> Wife and I are not getting 'the shot'
> I was on the fence, but after our son died earlier this month, four days after the Moderna vaccine....no thanks
> 
> Either way, its a crap shoot.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much research you do
> Know this;
> You* are *the research
> 
> Pick yer poison


Can't say this any better...still NO needle for me here.


----------



## MarciKS

Gary O' said:


> Wife and I are not getting 'the shot'
> I was on the fence, but after our son died earlier this month, four days after the Moderna vaccine....no thanks
> 
> Either way, its a crap shoot.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much research you do
> Know this;
> You* are *the research
> 
> Pick yer poison


I think we've always been the research.


----------



## Gary O'

Sunny said:


> Gary, would you mind telling us what was your son's cause of death? If you'd rather not, because it's too personal, I understand. But it's hard to tell from what you have written whether his cause of death was the vaccine itself, or something else.


No autopsy 
His cremation was rather rushed
No help on our part

I will say this
He was fit and able, and ate right
49 is a bit young for natural causes

He took some heavy meds for his schizophrenia 
But had physicals every six months to see if his major organs were doing OK

I can't say for sure the vaccine did him in
The vaccine with those meds didn't help matters

Still, four days after the vaccine, I don't believe to be coincidence

I'd appreciate this not to be on the banter bonfire

It's just FYI


----------



## squatting dog

StarSong said:


> *Godwin's law*, short for *Godwin's law* (or *rule*) *of Nazi analogies*,[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler becomes more likely.[2][3] That is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which usually dampens discussion.


If the shoe fits.................


----------



## Buckeye

JonDouglas said:


> Perhaps someday you'll better appreciate how questions are used to both get people to think and discover if there any any hot spots to be aware of.  It helps to remember that a response to posed questions can be quite telling in a number of ways.  I trust you've noticed that a lot of threads in this forum start with a question, clever people that they are.
> 
> Best regards,


{sigh} you are still trying to make this about me when it is about your posts, which is just another sad attempt at deflection.   Your post #19 admonished folks to be look harder at things that were questioned, etc.  Then in your post #105 you questioned the motivation/reasons for the USC study (publish or perish?) and the qualifications of the authors, which, in accordance with your post #19 is reason to "_you know its time to give that view, voice or idea more, not less, attention".  _All I did was call you out on it.

But keep trying to unsay what you said.  That is common practice by folks who don't want to own up to their own words.


----------



## Liberty

StarSong said:


> I don't agree with withholding any kind of medical assistance regardless of vaccination status, just for the record.


We were told if the vax cards were lost, stolen or misplaced, we could simply call the "hub" (which is where we got vac'd) and they had a record of our vaccinations.  They would then provide us with a new card.  In other words, its on record.  The paperwork you fill out prior to vaccination is kept online.


----------



## StarSong

Liberty said:


> We were told if the vax cards were lost, stolen or misplaced, we could simply call the "hub" (which is where we got vac'd) and they had a record of our vaccinations.  They would then provide us with a new card.  In other words, its on record.  The paperwork you fill out prior to vaccination is kept online.


That makes sense.  However, my post was referring to the many comments I've seen on SF suggesting Covid health care should be denied to people who declined the vaccine and were then seriously sickened by the virus.  For example, post #126. ^^^    

In my eyes that would be little different from refusing assistance to Type 2 diabetics who persist in eating foods that exacerbate their conditions (plenty of these in my extended family), denying COPD, lung cancer or cardio vascular care to smokers, banning emergency care for drunk drivers who get into accidents, and so forth.

Civilized humans don't behave that way toward one another.


----------



## Sunny

I don't think there is really any similarity between requiring health measures and Nazi Germany requiring Jews to wear a yellow star. Talk about a stretch! 

The requirement of proof of vaccination is for the public good, and helps to slow down the raging pandemic that is killing people by the millions. Some people may be against taking a vaccine (or any vaccine), but no one is accusing the medical establishment of practicing genocide against a helpless group of people because of their ethnic identity. One is being done for good (whether you personally want the vaccine or not), the other is pure evil.

There are situations in life that are comparable to Nazi Germany, but come on!  Using that as an analogy for everything you disagree with cheapens the memory of the Holocaust.  

P.S. Don't schools require proof of vaccination because kids can be registered as students? Don't some countries require immunization before admitting travelers to their shores?  Nothing new about requiring proof of vaccination.


----------



## Paco Dennis

I was on the fence with getting the shot this morning. I decided I would rather get a little sick and feel free to see people again. So 1 down and 1 to go. I hung around our medium sized city afterward, hoping to find a cafe to get a little breakfast. Everywhere I went it was pretty crowded 
 ( Sat. morning ) and 90% of the people were not wearing masks. I didn't get any breakfast...just came on home and ate.


----------



## chic

StarSong said:


> *Godwin's law*, short for *Godwin's law* (or *rule*) *of Nazi analogies*,[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler becomes more likely.[2][3] That is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which usually dampens discussion.


wrong post edit


----------



## chic

MarciKS said:


> I think we've always been the research.


More and more people are becoming aware of this now.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

Gaer said:


> I wish this would have been posted prior to my stupidly getting the shot!
> Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I've ever done.
> Wo!  That list is getting awfully long!


 I'm not an anti vaxer per se but me, most of my family and friends are not planning to get the vaccine any time soon (if ever). One friend took it and after the first shot, she said her face was red like a beet and it lasted a few days. The doctor really couldn't do anything about it. Another one who's being treated for cancer took it and she said it made her so sick she had stuff coming out of both ends, got dizzy, weak and just felt awful for days. 

I feel not enough is known about these vaccines yet. Information coming from health organizations keeps changing. Get the shot but still wear masks and social distance, which only recently has been revised. I don't rush and get a new operating system as soon as it's available because there are *always* glitches. Plus I've read some disturbing things about what's in the vaccine and what it does. 

_"Getting the vaccine will go down as one of the stupidest things I've ever done." _Why do you feel that way Gaer?


----------



## Lethe200

Wow, six pages of commentary posts and no one questioned the validity of the original post. Interesting....

*Fact check: COVID-19 vaccine not associated with neurodegenerative disease*
USA TODAY 31March2021
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cine-not-associated-prion-disease/7053007002/

(excerpt)
*Prion disease and COVID-19 vaccines*
Contrary to Classen's claim, there is no evidence to suggest the COVID-19 vaccines can cause prion diseases or other neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's.

USA TODAY found no mention in its review of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's decision memorandums for both Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines, which involved clinical trials with tens of thousands of volunteers. Similarly, no cases have been reported to the federal government's Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, or VAERS.

"VAERS has received no reports of prion-related diseases, Alzheimer's disease, or amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) after COVID-19 vaccination," said Martha Sharan, a spokesperson for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to PolitiFact in February. "No evidence to date indicates a causative association between COVID-19 vaccines and these conditions."

Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist affiliated with Georgetown University, told USA TODAY Classen's paper held "no scientific weight at all" and that the journal his article is published in, Microbiology & Infectious Diseases, was "not a reputable or reliable journal." *(Microbiology & Infectious Diseases is an open-access journal published by SciVision Publishers, a potential predatory publisher intended for profit rather than academic peer-review.)*

Dr. David Gorski, professor of surgery and oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine, echoed Rasmussen in a Feb. 22 blog post for Science-Based Medicine.

"What we have here is a whole heck of a lot of speculation, with the finding of an obscure connection based on methodology that is not explained with anywhere near the level of rigor a real molecular biology or bioinformatics scientist would require to be convinced," Gorski concludes.

*It's worth noting this is not the first time Classen has used "science" to claim vaccines do more harm than good. In 1999, he claimed the influenza vaccine caused type 1 diabetes, a claim disproven by Johns Hopkins University's Institute for Vaccine Safety.*


----------



## JonDouglas

Lethe200 said:


> Wow, six pages of commentary posts and no one questioned the validity of the original post. Interesting....
> 
> [snip]


Perhap it is more like no one felt the need to attack the OP as much as you.  It certainly was discussed from various angles and viewpoints.


----------



## Lethe200

JonDouglas said:


> Perhap it is more like no one felt the need to attack the OP as much as you.  It certainly was discussed from various angles and viewpoints.


Ah yes, presenting facts is always "an attack". As you wish!


----------



## JonDouglas

Lethe200 said:


> Ah yes, presenting facts is always "an attack". As you wish!


Perhaps you should have said "other sources" rather than "facts".  You presented information from other sources that you, not necessarily everyone else, deem as "facts."


----------



## squatting dog

Here is a fact.


----------



## tbeltrans

squatting dog said:


> Here is a fact.
> 
> View attachment 162913


Yeah, but how do you know that these vaccines didn't benefit from alien technology?  All the talk we recently had around here about UFOs...  

Tony


----------



## StarSong

Lethe200 said:


> Wow, six pages of commentary posts and no one questioned the validity of the original post. Interesting....
> 
> *Fact check: COVID-19 vaccine not associated with neurodegenerative disease*
> USA TODAY 31March2021
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cine-not-associated-prion-disease/7053007002/
> 
> (excerpt)
> *Prion disease and COVID-19 vaccines*
> Contrary to Classen's claim, there is no evidence to suggest the COVID-19 vaccines can cause prion diseases or other neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's.
> 
> USA TODAY found no mention in its review of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's decision memorandums for both Pfizer and Moderna's vaccines, which involved clinical trials with tens of thousands of volunteers. Similarly, no cases have been reported to the federal government's Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, or VAERS.
> 
> "VAERS has received no reports of prion-related diseases, Alzheimer's disease, or amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) after COVID-19 vaccination," said Martha Sharan, a spokesperson for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to PolitiFact in February. "No evidence to date indicates a causative association between COVID-19 vaccines and these conditions."
> 
> Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a virologist affiliated with Georgetown University, told USA TODAY Classen's paper held "no scientific weight at all" and that the journal his article is published in, Microbiology & Infectious Diseases, was "not a reputable or reliable journal." *(Microbiology & Infectious Diseases is an open-access journal published by SciVision Publishers, a potential predatory publisher intended for profit rather than academic peer-review.)*
> 
> Dr. David Gorski, professor of surgery and oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine, echoed Rasmussen in a Feb. 22 blog post for Science-Based Medicine.
> 
> "What we have here is a whole heck of a lot of speculation, with the finding of an obscure connection based on methodology that is not explained with anywhere near the level of rigor a real molecular biology or bioinformatics scientist would require to be convinced," Gorski concludes.
> 
> *It's worth noting this is not the first time Classen has used "science" to claim vaccines do more harm than good. In 1999, he claimed the influenza vaccine caused type 1 diabetes, a claim disproven by Johns Hopkins University's Institute for Vaccine Safety.*


Thanks for doing the research. I rather suspected the full story was along these lines.


----------



## StarSong

squatting dog said:


> Here is a fact.
> 
> View attachment 162913


As with almost all memes, there are minute germs of truth in this one, but they're outweighed by the larger truths and contexts that are conveniently ignored.


----------



## JonDouglas

StarSong said:


> As with almost all memes, there are minute germs of truth in this one, but they're outweighed by the larger truths and contexts that are conveniently ignored.


Well, I have to ask:  What is the larger truth in this one and how do you know it's true for everyone?  Just asking.


----------



## maybenot

squatting dog said:


> Here is a fact.
> 
> View attachment 162913


It's all about Big Pharma and their profit line , fit healthy folks don't buy their crap


----------



## squatting dog

StarSong said:


> As with almost all memes, there are minute germs of truth in this one, but they're outweighed by the larger truths and contexts that are conveniently ignored.



Minute germs of truth? 
What then would be the larger truth and context that is being conveniently ignored as pointed out in that meme?


----------



## StarSong

squatting dog said:


> Minute germs of truth?
> What then would be the larger truth and context that is being conveniently ignored as pointed out in that meme?


As it turns out, Reuters addressed this meme five months ago:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-covid19-vaccine-hiv-cancer-idUSKBN28L2CF


----------



## squatting dog

StarSong said:


> As it turns out, Reuters addressed this meme five months ago:
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-covid19-vaccine-hiv-cancer-idUSKBN28L2CF


So what you and fact checkers are saying is there is a vaccine for HIV and the common cold, and cancer.  Interesting.


----------



## StarSong

squatting dog said:


> So what you and fact checkers are saying is there is a vaccine for HIV and the common cold, and cancer.  Interesting.
> 
> View attachment 163017


That's not what the article says.


----------



## squatting dog

StarSong said:


> That's not what the article says.


More important is what the article doesn't say. (although there is one line about 3/4's down the page that stands out).
 "Vaccines have to go through a number of stages before they are approved". 
So, this was written in Dec. of 2020. Well, which vaccine has been FDA approved?
Also, I noticed the article glossed over the fact that it’s easy to forget that many other illnesses, including the common cold, are actually caused by coronaviruses.


----------



## squatting dog

Before you jump to that Reuters fact checker's, (who will split hairs again and something like "the common cold and COVID-19 are not caused by the same coronavirus"). Of course leaving out all the other variants of a cold .
Coronaviruses have four main sub-groups: alpha, beta, gamma, and delta. While they can infect people and animals, human coronaviruses were first identified in the 1960s. These are the seven known coronaviruses that can infect people, per the CDC:

From prevention dot com. 
*Is the common cold caused by a coronavirus?*​Yes, but not _all _colds are caused by a coronavirus. 


*229E *(alpha coronavirus)
*NL63* (alpha coronavirus)
*OC43 *(beta coronavirus)
*HKU1* (beta coronavirus)
*MERS-CoV* (the beta coronavirus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, or MERS)
*SARS-CoV* (the beta coronavirus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS)
*SARS-CoV-2 *(the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19)
Where are all the vaccines for all these that have been a problem a lot longer?


----------



## Ladybj

Buckeye said:


> Well, here's some more information from USC.  Take it for what it's worth...
> 
> USC Study about vaccination


I agree to disagree with the study.  It clearly states its a "study" not a known fact.  But it is what it is.  Does not sway me one way or the other.


----------



## Ladybj

MarciKS said:


> For younger folks I could see that. For us we might get it regardless of the vaccine.
> 
> I just hope everything in these articles they're putting out is actual fact. If not then people will be rejecting a vaccine based solely on fear.
> 
> I also understand not wanting to take the vaccine if it's not going to stop the virus. But it would be nice to slow it down and take some of it's strength away so that it might become no more harmful than the flu.


That's the problem... we or whomever is putting out the articles have no clue.  It's a "let's wait and see".


----------



## Buckeye

Ladybj said:


> I agree to disagree with the study.  It clearly states its a "study" not a known fact.  But it is what it is.  Does not sway me one way or the other.


It wasn't meant to "sway you one way or the other".  Just showing the correlation between education and getting vaccinated.  Neither group was 100% either way.


----------



## Ladybj

Homeschoolie said:


> I was having very severe slow thinking, bad memory, etc. problems. Started taking well researched natural supplements to treat it. I VERY much improved.
> 
> But then plateaued at my much improved level. Nothing I did brought any further improvement. This went on for years.
> 
> UNTIL I had the one shot Johnson and Johnson from the Netherlands. (I am a firm believer that the source that makes substances we use makes a difference too.)
> 
> Within  a week or so after vaccination my mind improved a lot. I am now quicker thinking, and sharper thinking almost like I was years ago before my decline. I had always had  a very quick mind.
> It is like night and day difference. I had changed nothing else in my supplements, diet, lifestyle, habits to trigger a change.
> 
> For those of you who will jump on this as a vaccine sales pitch or made up story etc.
> It is not. It is just sharing what my experience was.  I have nothing to gain by making this up and nothing to gain by sharing it.
> All I know is whatever it triggered in my body Yippee. I just hope that the fix is permanent and I don't go back to how I was.


You are one of the fortunate ones... My hubby had the 2nd shot and I see a change in him.. will not go into detail on this site or any site.


----------



## Ladybj

Buckeye said:


> It wasn't meant to "sway you one way or the other".  Just showing the correlation between education and getting vaccinated.  Neither group was 100% either way.


OH YESSSSSS it is to sway.  Again. I agree to disagree.  Those who chose to get it great, those who chose not to get it great.


----------



## Buckeye

Ladybj said:


> OH YESSSSSS it is to sway.  Again. I agree to disagree.  Those who chose to get it great, those who chose not to get it great.


It's just data.  And it is not about the vaccine itself, it is about how us folks see the vaccines, based on race and education levels.  Are you saying you disagree with the data?


----------



## Ladybj

Gary O' said:


> Wife and I are not getting 'the shot'
> I was on the fence, but after our son died earlier this month, four days after the Moderna vaccine....no thanks
> 
> Either way, its a crap shoot.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much research you do
> Know this;
> You* are *the research
> 
> Pick yer poison


Hey Gary O'   
So sorry to hear about your son.  WOW... Unfortunately its experimental at this point and a lot of people are getting so sick.  Not all but too many.  One death is too many.


----------



## Ladybj

Buckeye said:


> It's just data.  And it is not about the vaccine itself, it is about how us folks see the vaccines, based on race and education levels.  Are you saying you disagree with the data?


Absolutely.  Its about the vaccine. Again, I agree to disagree.


----------



## Ladybj

squatting dog said:


> Here is a fact.
> 
> View attachment 162913


E X A C T L Y.... WOW.... GREAT POST.  Hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Dana

_*I am not reading all the palaver up above, but whoever said this... "education is the key to who gets the vaccine" or something along those lines...made the best observation. *_

*Yes...the problem lies with lay people putting up posts which they have not examined and expressing strong opinions purely from a personal POV and without any data to back it u*p.

*The very idea of anyone putting up a thread with the bold statement "before anyone else takes the shot" .. is such an insult to the intelligence of members especially since the OP has failed to present any real facts. However, making another  incorrect statement about Gene Therapy without even possibly reading Post # 32 ( ) which talks about the very subject, but carries on with the charade, beggars belief!*


----------



## Ladybj

Dana said:


> _*I am not reading all the palaver up above, but whoever said this... "education is the key to who gets the vaccine" or something along those lines...made the best observation. *_
> 
> *Yes...the problem lies with lay people putting up posts which they have not examined and expressing strong opinions purely from a personal POV and without any data to back it u*p.
> 
> *The very idea of anyone putting up a thread with the bold statement "before anyone else takes the shot" .. is such an insult to the intelligence of members especially since the OP has failed to present any real facts. However, making another  incorrect statement about Gene Therapy without even possibly reading Post # 32 ( ) which talks about the very subject, but carries on with the charade, beggars belief!*


Education, race, etc., has NOTHING to do with who decides to get the vaccine - its a personal choice.


----------



## Dana

Ladybj said:


> Education, race, etc., has NOTHING to do with who decides to get the vaccine - its a personal choice.



*I said nothing about "race" ... if you are incapable of quoting someone correctly, then avoid quoting them at all!!*


----------



## Ladybj

Dana said:


> *I said nothing about "race" ... if you are incapable of quoting someone correctly, then avoid quoting them at all!!*


OMG -  I was not quoting you  My post was not about you.


----------



## Keesha

Oh here we go!....


----------



## Dana

Ladybj said:


> OMG -  I was not quoting you  My post was not about you.


_Then why did you write your comment under my post...eye problems?_


----------



## Ladybj

Dana said:


> _Then why did you write your comment under my post...eye problems?_


I am sending you a BIG ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUG))))))))))))))))))))


----------



## Dana

Ladybj said:


> I am sending you a BIG ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUG))))))))))))))))))))



Received with


----------



## Buckeye

Ladybj said:


> Absolutely.  Its about the vaccine. Again, I agree to disagree.


Apparently you are offended by something the data and the study shows. It's okay, because on here a lot of folks are offended by facts.


----------



## StarSong

squatting dog said:


> Before you jump to that Reuters fact checker's, (who will split hairs again and something like "the common cold and COVID-19 are not caused by the same coronavirus"). Of course leaving out all the other variants of a cold .
> Coronaviruses have four main sub-groups: alpha, beta, gamma, and delta. While they can infect people and animals, human coronaviruses were first identified in the 1960s. These are the seven known coronaviruses that can infect people, per the CDC:
> 
> From prevention dot com.
> *Is the common cold caused by a coronavirus?*​Yes, but not _all _colds are caused by a coronavirus.
> 
> 
> *229E *(alpha coronavirus)
> *NL63* (alpha coronavirus)
> *OC43 *(beta coronavirus)
> *HKU1* (beta coronavirus)
> *MERS-CoV* (the beta coronavirus that causes Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, or MERS)
> *SARS-CoV* (the beta coronavirus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS)
> *SARS-CoV-2 *(the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19)
> *Where are all the vaccines for all these that have been a problem a lot longer?*


Do the research for yourself.  Duckduckgo is your friend.  I'm outta here.


----------



## chic

The only fact pertaining to THIS vaccine which sways my opinion is that it is experimental. That's all.


----------



## Homeschoolie

Do your own research it is out there.

Compare the Covid vaccine, deaths, reactions, side affects, effectiveness, risks, research, status of those who it affected in some way and those it didn't ,  etc. with a  Typical Flu Season flu vaccine, deaths, reactions, side affects. effectiveness, risks, research, status of those who it affected in some way and those it didn't etc.

The results of the compare are eye opening and interesting.

Look at the science of how and what it takes to actually alter DNA in even just one cell with what a vaccine actually does and where it goes in the body.

Sadly most people like to argue about personal opinions without putting effort into looking at real facts, statistics, research studies etc. So I am out of here. Posting any of the info I listed above has been and will be wasted effort on this crowd.

Speculation, personal opinion and wild ass guessing, when it comes to health issues is a waste of time and energy and can be very risky to do.


----------



## Ladybj

Buckeye said:


> Apparently you are offended by something the data and the study shows. It's okay, because on here a lot of folks are offended by facts.


No... I am not offended by studies/facts at all.  Studies are just that "Studies" they are not etched in stone.  Studies and facts change as often as we change our mind.  JMO.


----------



## Ladybj

Homeschoolie said:


> Do your own research it is out there.
> 
> Compare the Covid vaccine, deaths, reactions, side affects, effectiveness, risks, research, status of those who it affected in some way and those it didn't ,  etc. with a  Typical Flu Season flu vaccine, deaths, reactions, side affects. effectiveness, risks, research, status of those who it affected in some way and those it didn't etc.
> 
> The results of the compare are eye opening and interesting.
> 
> Look at the science of how and what it takes to actually alter DNA in even just one cell with what a vaccine actually does and where it goes in the body.
> 
> Sadly most people like to argue about personal opinions without putting effort into looking at real facts, statistics, research studies etc. So I am out of here. Posting any of the info I listed above has been and will be wasted effort on this crowd.
> 
> Speculation, personal opinion and wild ass guessing, when it comes to health issues is a waste of time and energy and can be very risky to do.


GREAT Post!!!


----------



## JonDouglas

*Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (**VAERS**)*: I don't know if this site had been previously posted here but it may be of interest to those who seek more data about vaccine reactions. When looking at the data, it should be noted that not all cases of adverse reactions are reported so the real numbers aren't known. At best, this data is another clue.


----------



## Brookswood

squatting dog said:


> Here is a fact.
> 
> View attachment 162913


But there are vaccines for polio, small pox, measles, etc. etc. etc.  and they have worked very well.   why are they not mentioned above?  How convenient they are left out. How misleading to leave them out.


----------



## Becky1951

Brookswood said:


> But there are vaccines for polio, small pox, measles, etc. etc. etc.  and they have worked very well.   why are they not mentioned above?  How convenient they are left out. How misleading to leave them out.



All of those vaccines were studied for several years and were FDA approved.


----------



## John cycling

Brookswood said:


> But there are vaccines for polio, small pox, measles, etc. etc. etc.
> why are they not mentioned above?  How convenient they are left out. How misleading to leave them out.



Polio, small pox and measles could be listed as well.
18 things you don't know about polio -- the virus lie  <--
Additional information:  The infectious myth, a history of polio <--


----------



## Buckeye

Ladybj said:


> No... I am not offended by studies/facts at all.  Studies are just that "Studies" they are not etched in stone.  *Studies and facts change as often as we change our mind*.  JMO.


lol - well, thanks.  That clears up a lot of your posts


----------



## squatting dog

Becky1951 said:


> All of those vaccines were studied for several years and were FDA approved.


Thank you. You got the gist of my post.


----------



## chic

Becky1951 said:


> All of those vaccines were studied for several years and were FDA approved.


Exactly! That's it in a nutshell.


----------



## JonDouglas

There is no doubt that these covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market, bypassing the more careful, animal and clinical trials.  Thus, you would expect to see more cautionary thoughts, stories and medical papers; however, those are few and far between due to political, peer and governmental pressure.  Someone sent me a copy of a pre-release paper that urges caution (not a bad thing) and demands questions from authorities and vaccine developers.  I'll not post it all, just the abstract and some salient points.

*Abstract*_:  Since the start of the COVID-19 outbreak, the race for testing new platforms designed to confer immunity against SARS-CoV-2, has been rampant and unprecedented, leading to emergency authorization of various vaccines. Despite progress on early multidrug therapy for COVID-19 patients, the current mandate is to immunize the world population as quickly as possible. The lack of thorough testing in animals prior to clinical trials, and authorization based on safety data generated during trials that lasted less than 3.5 months, raise questions regarding the safety of these vaccines. The recently identified role of SARS-CoV-2 glycoprotein Spike for inducing endothelial damage characteristic of COVID-19, even in absence of infection, is extremely relevant given that most of the authorized vaccines induce the production of Spike glycoprotein in the recipients. Given the high rate of occurrence of adverse effects, and the wide range of types of adverse effects that have been reported to date, as well as the potential for vaccine-driven disease enhancement, Th2-immunopathology, autoimmunity, and immune evasion, there is a need for a better understanding of the benefits and risks of mass vaccination, particularly in the groups that were excluded in the clinical trials. Despite calls for caution, the risks of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination have been minimized or ignored by health organizations and government authorities. We appeal to the need for a pluralistic dialogue in the context of health policies, emphasizing critical questions that require urgent answers if we wish to avoid a global erosion of public confidence in science and public health._​- - - - - - - - - - [snip] - - - - - - - - - -​_In conclusion, in the context of the rushed emergency-use-authorization of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, and the current gaps in our understanding of their safety, the following questions must be raised:_​
_Is it known whether cross-reactive antibodies from previous coronavirus infections or vaccine206 induced antibodies may influence the risk of unintended pathogenesis following vaccination with COVID-19?_​
_Has the specific risk of ADE, immunopathology, autoimmunity, and serious adverse reactions been clearly disclosed to vaccine recipients to meet the medical ethics standard of patient understanding for informed consent? If not, what are the reasons, and how could it be implemented?_​
_What is the rationale for administering the vaccine to every individual when the risk of dying from COVID-19 is not equal across age groups and clinical conditions and when the phase 3 trials excluded the elderly, children and frequent specific conditions?_​
_What are the legal rights of patients if they are harmed by a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine? Who will cover the costs of medical treatment? If claims were to be settled with public money, has the public been made aware that the vaccine manufacturers have been granted immunity, and their responsibility to compensate those harmed by the vaccine has been transferred to the tax-payers?_​
- - - - - - - - - - [snip] - - - - - - - - - -​_References: _ (Long List)​
McCullough PA, Alexander PE, Armstrong R, et al. Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19). Rev Cardiovasc Med (2020) 21:517–530. doi:10.31083/j.rcm.2020.04.264​
Arvin AM, Fink K, Schmid MA, et al. A perspective on potential antibody- dependent enhancement of SARS-CoV-2. Nature (2020) 484:353–363. doi:10.1038/s41586-020-2538-8​
Coish JM, MacNeil AJ. Out of the frying pan and into the fire? Due diligence warranted for ADE in COVID-19. Microbes Infect (2020) 22(9):405-406. doi:10.1016/j.micinf.2020.06.006​
Eroshenko N, Gill T, Keaveney ML, et al. Implications of antibody-dependent enhancement of infection for SARS-CoV-2 countermeasures. Nature Biotechnol (2020) 38:788–797. doi:10.1038/s41587-020-0577-1​
Poland GA. Tortoises, hares, and vaccines: A cautionary note for SARS-CoV-2 vaccine development. Vaccine (2020) 38:4219–4220. doi:10.1016/j.vaccine.2020.04.073​
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Iwasaki A, Yang Y. The potential danger of suboptimal antibody responses in COVID-19. Nat Rev Immunol (2020) 20:339–341. doi:10.1038/s41577-020-0321-6​
Vennema H, de Groot RJ, Harbour DA, et al. Early death after feline infectious peritonitis virus challenge due to recombinant vaccinia virus immunization. J Virol (1990) 64:1407-1409​
Lambert PH, Ambrosino DM, Andersen SR, et al. Consensus summary report for CEPI/BC March 12-13, 2020 meeting: Assessment of risk of disease enhancement with COVID-19 vaccines. Vaccine (2020) 38(31):4783-4791. doi:10.1016/j.vaccine.2020.05.064​
de Alwis R, Chen S, Gan S, et al. Impact of immune enhancement on Covid-19 polyclonal hyperimmune globulin therapy and vaccine development. EbioMedicine (2020) 55:102768. doi:10.1016/j.ebiom.2020.102768​
Folegatti PM, Ewer KJ, Aley PK, et al. Safety and immunogenicity of the ChAdOx1 nCoV287 19 vaccine against SARS-CoV-2: a preliminary report of a phase 1/2, single-blind, randomised controlled trial. Lancet (2020) 396:467–783. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31604-4​
Polack FP, Thomas SJ, Kitchin N. Safety and efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 vaccine. N Engl J Med (2020) 383:2603–2615. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2034577​
Ramasamy MN, Minassian AM, Ewer KJ, et al. Safety and immunogenicity of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine administered in a prime-boost regimen in young and old adults (COV002): a single-blind, randomised, controlled, phase 2/3 trial. Lancet (2021) 396:1979–93. doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(20)32466-1​
Chu L, McPhee R, Huang W, et al. mRNA-1273 Study Group. A preliminary report of a randomized controlled phase 2 trial of the safety and immunogenicity of mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine. Vaccine (2021) S0264-410X(21)00153-5. doi:10.1016/j.vaccine.2021.02.007​
Liu L, Wei Q, Lin Q, et al. Anti-spike IgG causes severe acute lung injury by skewing macrophage responses during acute SARS-CoV infection. JCI Insight (2019) 4(4):e123158. doi:10.1172/jci.insight.123158.​
Ioannidis PA. Infection fatality rate of COVID-19 inferred from seroprevalence data. Bull WHO (2021) 99:19–33F. http://dx.doi.org/10.2471/BLT.20.265892​
Martines RB, Ritter JM, Matkovic E, et al. Pathology and Pathogenesis of SARS-CoV-2 Associated with Fatal Coronavirus Disease, United States Emerg Infect Dis (2020) 26:2005-2015. doi:10.3201/eid2609.202095​
Wu Z, McGoogan JM. Characteristics of and Important Lessons From the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Outbreak in China: Summary of a Report of 72 314 Cases From the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention. JAMA (2020) 323:1239-1242. doi:10.1001/jama.2020.2648​
Xu Z, Shi L, Wang Y, et al. Pathological findings of COVID-19 associated with acute respiratory distress syndrome. Lancet Respiratory Med (2020) 8:420-422 doi:10.1016/S2213-2600(20)30076-X​
***** F. Is antibody-dependent enhancement playing a role in COVID-19 pathogenesis? Swiss Medical Weekly (2020) 150:w20249. doi:10.4414/smw.2020.20249317​
Lei Y, Zhang J, Schiavon CR et al., Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE 2. Circulation Res (2021) 128:1323–1326. https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.121.318902​
Lyons-Weiler J. Pathogenic priming likely contributes to serious and critical illness and mortality in COVID-19 via autoimmunity, J Translational Autoimmunity (2020) 3:100051. doi:10.1016/j.jtauto.2020.100051​
An H, Park J. Molecular Mimicry Map (3M) of SARS-CoV-2: Prediction of potentially immunopathogenic SARS-CoV-2 epitopes via a novel immunoinformatic approach. bioRxiv [Preprint]. 12 November 2020 [cited 2020 April 19] https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.11.12.344424​
Greinacher A, Thiele T, Warkentin TE, Weisser K, Kyrle PA, Eichinger S. Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia after ChAdOx1 nCov-19 Vaccination. N Engl J Med (2021). doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa2104840​
Othman M, Labelle A, Mazzetti I et al. Adenovirus-induced thrombocytopenia: the role of von Willebrand factor and P-selectin in mediating accelerated platelet clearance. Blood (2007) 109:2832–2839. doi:10.1182/blood-2006-06-032524​
Ortel TL. Acquired thrombotic risk factors in the critical care setting. Crit Care Med (2010) 38(2 Suppl):S43-50. doi:10.1097/CCM.0b013e3181c9ccc8​
Grubaugh ND, Petrone ME, Holmes EC. We shouldn’t worry when a virus mutates during disease outbreaks. Nat Microbiol (2020) 5:529–530. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41564-020-0690-4​
Greaney AJ, Starr TN, Gilchuk P, et al. Complete Mapping of Mutations to the SARS-CoV339 2 Spike Receptor-Binding Domain that Escape Antibody Recognition. Cell Host Microbe (2021) 29:44–57.e9. doi:10.1016/j.chom.2020.11.007.​
Lauring AS, Hodcroft EB. Genetic Variants of SARS-CoV-2—What Do They Mean? JAMA (2021) 325:529–531. doi:10.1001/jama.2020.27124​
Zhang L, Jackson CB, Mou H, et al. The D614G mutation in the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein reduces S1 shedding and increases infectivity. bioRxiv [Preprint]. June 12 2020 [cited 2021 Apr 19] https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726​
Korber B, Fischer WM, Gnanakaran S et al. Sheffield COVID-19 Genomics Group. Tracking changes in SARS-CoV-2 spike: evidence that D614G increases infectivity of the COVID-19 virus. Cell (2020) 182:812-827.e19. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2020.06.043​
Francis T. On the doctrine of original antigenic sin. Proc Am Philos Soc (1960) 104:572–578.​
Vibroud C, Epstein SL. First flu is forever. Science (2016) 354:706–707. doi:10.1126/science.aak9816​
Weisblum Y, Schmidt F, Zhang F, et al. Escape from neutralizing antibodies by SARS354 CoV-2 spike protein variants. Elife (2020) 9:e61312. doi:10.7554/eLife.61312​
Vanden Bossche G (March 6, 2021) https://dryburgh.com/wp-356content/...nden_Bossche_Open_Letter_WHO_March_6_2021.pdf​
Coish JM, MacNeil AJ. Out of the frying pan and into the fire? Due diligence warranted for ADE in COVID-19. Microbes Infect (2020) 22(9):405-406. doi:10.1016/j.micinf.2020.06.006​
Since the  paper is mostly focusing on questions, I'd suspect it won't make it into the "top shelf" sources due to all the money, emphasis  and political prestige that is at stake (and yes, we know, people's health is also at stake).  Never the less, there's nothing wrong with asking questions.


----------



## maybenot

I think we have to take into account the risk factors for different groups of people, for instance, right now, here in Australia, my chances of catching covid are almost zero, as there's very few cases, those that we do have are all in quarantine and were from returned travellers.
   If I were in India, I would be 'busting a gut' to get a vaccine (any vaccine) in my arm, even if it came with a one in million chance of getting a bloodclot
 But, my inner sense tells me that this disease is likely to be around for a long time, it aint over yet, especially when we bring back international flights, when my risk of dying with covid will be greater than my dying with the vaccine, so I'm in the queue for a jab as soon as my name comes up


----------



## StarSong

maybenot said:


> But, my inner sense tells me that this disease is likely to be around for a long time, it aint over yet, especially when we bring back international flights, when my risk of dying with covid will be greater than my dying with the vaccine, so I'm in the queue for a jab as soon as my name comes up


I think that's going to be true of most of the world when international travel reopens.


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## Sunny

Good grief, JonDouglas, are you getting a Ph.D. in the subject? I thought this was an informal discussion forum!

Since nobody here is going to read all your footnotes and references, let me introduce some simple, common-sense thoughts on the subject.

1. If this vaccine, which was admittedly "rushed" (out of necessity) was causing deaths, horrifying reactions, etc., wouldn't there be some indication of that by now?  People have been getting the vaccine in this country for half a year now.

2. The disease itself does cause many, many deaths (in the millions) and horrifying reactions.  I have heard of very few, or none, from the vaccine.

3. I don't know about the correlation between education and receiving the vaccine. But the parts of the country with a higher proportion of educated people do have a higher rate of vaccination. The resistance seems to come largely from rural areas, which may or may not prove something about education.

4. Within the last few years, everyone I know has gotten the newest vaccines for shingles, flu, and pneumonia. Our doctors told us to get it, so we did. No big argument about it, that I have heard. Only this one has provoked so much anger, fear, insulting, skepticism, and nastiness often along political lines.  

5. Any vaccine carries a certain amount of "risk," I suppose.  We have to weigh the risk of the disease to ourselves against the risk of the vaccine. That is true of every vaccine in the world.  From all I've read about this, the people who have received the vaccine are alive. Or at least, they haven't died from Covid or from the vaccine. And isn't that the bottom line?


----------



## Liberty

Spike protein vaccines have been in "know" for a couple decades...the SAR's vaccine enabled the covid vaccine to get a jump start.  Interesting interview with the maker of the SAR's vaccine, who commented that they offered to make a covid vaccine, but got no takers at the time.


----------



## chic

Sunny said:


> Good grief, JonDouglas, are you getting a Ph.D. in the subject? I thought this was an informal discussion forum!
> 
> Since nobody here is going to read all your footnotes and references, let me introduce some simple, common-sense thoughts on the subject.
> 
> 1. If this vaccine, which was admittedly "rushed" (out of necessity) was causing deaths, horrifying reactions, etc., wouldn't there be some indication of that by now?  People have been getting the vaccine in this country for half a year now.
> 
> 2. The disease itself does cause many, many deaths (in the millions) and horrifying reactions.  I have heard of very few, or none, from the vaccine.
> 
> 3. I don't know about the correlation between education and receiving the vaccine. But the parts of the country with a higher proportion of educated people do have a higher rate of vaccination. The resistance seems to come largely from rural areas, which may or may not prove something about education.
> 
> 4. Within the last few years, everyone I know has gotten the newest vaccines for shingles, flu, and pneumonia. Our doctors told us to get it, so we did. No big argument about it, that I have heard. Only this one has provoked so much anger, fear, insulting, skepticism, and nastiness often along political lines.
> 
> 5. Any vaccine carries a certain amount of "risk," I suppose.  We have to weigh the risk of the disease to ourselves against the risk of the vaccine. That is true of every vaccine in the world.  From all I've read about this, the people who have received the vaccine are alive. Or at least, they haven't died from Covid or from the vaccine. And isn't that the bottom line?


By contrast, if people were dying of covid in the numbers the media would have us believe, why aren't we stepping over the bodies of people, especially homeless people, everywhere? Why don't we see unusually heavy activity at hospitals, doctors and nurses and emergency vehicles 24/7 so much so that the average person comments upon it.

Education has nothing to do with lining up for a vaccine. It's the mentality of the individual that will determine compliance, not their education level. The will of  the collective will always be subordinate to that of the methodological individualist ie. autonomous individuals, people unafraid to think and decide for themselves. Trying to make a person feel ignorant because they have decided they do not want this vaccine is, well, ignorant in itself.

And what about people who cannot take the vaccine for medical or other reasons? Are they to be bullied and/or shunned for the rest of their lives for this decision? What of people on reservations or people with religious beliefs? And what about the homeless. I haven't ever seen them dying in greater numbers than before or do we just ignore homeless people because they don't count?

I believe there are a myriad of reasons why an individual may choose not to be vaccinated. This isn't a one size fits all situation.


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## Sunny

> By contrast, if people were dying of covid in the numbers the media would have us believe, why aren't we stepping over the bodies of people, especially homeless people, everywhere? Why don't we see unusually heavy activity at hospitals, doctors and nurses and emergency vehicles 24/7 so much so that the average person comments upon it.



Chic, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

It's in the Bible.


----------



## win231

chic said:


> By contrast, if people were dying of covid in the numbers the media would have us believe, why aren't we stepping over the bodies of people, especially homeless people, everywhere? Why don't we see unusually heavy activity at hospitals, doctors and nurses and emergency vehicles 24/7 so much so that the average person comments upon it.
> 
> Education has nothing to do with lining up for a vaccine. It's the mentality of the individual that will determine compliance, not their education level. The will of  the collective will always be subordinate to that of the methodological individualist ie. autonomous individuals, people unafraid to think and decide for themselves. Trying to make a person feel ignorant because they have decided they do not want this vaccine is, well, ignorant in itself.
> 
> And what about people who cannot take the vaccine for medical or other reasons? Are they to be bullied and/or shunned for the rest of their lives for this decision? What of people on reservations or people with religious beliefs? And what about the homeless. I haven't ever seen them dying in greater numbers than before or do we just ignore homeless people because they don't count?
> 
> I believe there are a myriad of reasons why an individual may choose not to be vaccinated. This isn't a one size fits all situation.


^^^ Most intelligent post I've seen on this topic to date.
As I mentioned previously, in the past year, while they were reporting _"Crowded ER waiting rooms, hospitals filled to capacity, no beds available, patients on gurneys in hallways, corpses stacked in meat trucks in parking lots,"_ I took 2 elderly friends to ER's on two different occasions to two different hospitals. Nothing but empty waiting rooms & no patients on gurneys in the hallway.  And no meat trucks in the parking lot.
Four months ago, my sister went to the ER for a UTI.  Again, 2 people in the waiting room, no patients in hallways & she was seen right away.

I was reminded of that "Twilight Zone" episode -_ "Where is Everybody?"_
Perhaps the BS had a purpose - create sufficient fear so people would rush to get the vaccine without question.
You can fool some people some of the time, but........


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> Chic, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
> 
> It's in the Bible.


Gullibility:  A tendency to be easily manipulated into believing something is true when it isn't.


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## Liberty

Spike protein vaccines have been in "know" for a couple decades...the SAR's vaccine enabled the covid vaccine to get a jump start.  Interesting interview with the maker of the SAR's vaccine, who commented that they offered to make a covid vaccine, but got no takers at the time.


----------



## chic

Sunny said:


> Chic, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
> 
> It's in the Bible.


You're an atheist.


----------



## Sunny

chic said:


> You're an atheist.
> 
> View attachment 164117



Chic, believe it or not, we atheists are fully aware of what's in the Bible. Maybe more than the "believers!"
If you don't like me mentioning (gasp) the Bible, I'll add that that quotation is also attributed to Jonathan Swift. Is that secular enough for you?

Anybody who can dare to claim that not that many people can be dying of Covid, because their bodies are not piling up in the streets (which, by the way, they are in some countries), is clearly shutting their eyes and sticking their fingers in their ears. If you refuse to accept reality, there's little point in continuing this conversation. Maybe you'll get lucky and not catch it.


----------



## JonDouglas

Sunny said:


> Good grief, JonDouglas, are you getting a Ph.D. in the subject? I thought this was an informal discussion forum!
> 
> Since nobody here is going to read all your footnotes and references, let me introduce some simple, common-sense thoughts on the subject.
> 
> 1. If this vaccine, which was admittedly "rushed" (out of necessity) was causing deaths, horrifying reactions, etc., wouldn't there be some indication of that by now?  People have been getting the vaccine in this country for half a year now.
> 
> 2. The disease itself does cause many, many deaths (in the millions) and horrifying reactions.  I have heard of very few, or none, from the vaccine.
> 
> 3. I don't know about the correlation between education and receiving the vaccine. But the parts of the country with a higher proportion of educated people do have a higher rate of vaccination. The resistance seems to come largely from rural areas, which may or may not prove something about education.
> 
> 4. Within the last few years, everyone I know has gotten the newest vaccines for shingles, flu, and pneumonia. Our doctors told us to get it, so we did. No big argument about it, that I have heard. Only this one has provoked so much anger, fear, insulting, skepticism, and nastiness often along political lines.
> 
> 5. Any vaccine carries a certain amount of "risk," I suppose.  We have to weigh the risk of the disease to ourselves against the risk of the vaccine. That is true of every vaccine in the world.  From all I've read about this, the people who have received the vaccine are alive. Or at least, they haven't died from Covid or from the vaccine. And isn't that the bottom line?


You sure seem obsessed with the stuff I post.  Some people will find it useful, some won't.  Suggest you get over yourself.,  You're not the site editor


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## Keesha

I find your posts interesting Jon and read every one you post in this thread.


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## JonDouglas

Keesha said:


> I find your posts interesting Jon and read every one you post in this thread.


Thank you, @Keesha .  I know you can't please everybody and some do get riled up over this subject and/or personality differences.  Once in a while you even see ego creeping into issue.  You just post what you think might be interesting and./or useful/helpful and don't sweat the flak.  But, you already knew that.


----------



## Keesha

JonDouglas said:


> Thank you, @Keesha .  I know you can't please everybody and some do get riled up over this subject and/or personality differences.  Once in a while you even see ego creeping into issue.  You just post what you think might be interesting and./or useful/helpful and don't sweat the flak.  But, you already knew that.


No you can’t please everyone and we aren’t going to all agree. Thats reality. Members here reflect that reality. You aren’t hurting anyone by adding your opinions. We are all adults and have the right to make our own choices even if they clash with others. You handle the criticism well Jon.


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## Buckeye

Here's what the CDC has to say

CDC Vaccine data

As of today about 260 million doses have been administered.  Text your zip code to 438829 and they will tell you where you can get vaccinated


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## Sunny

JonDouglas said:


> You sure seem obsessed with the stuff I post.  Some people will find it useful, some won't.  Suggest you get over yourself.,  You're not the site editor


Obsessed?  Why? Because I answered you one time?


----------



## Buckeye

And here's some more information about folks who haven't had the shot..

For $100 I'll get the shot

Link is to dailymail, but study was at USC.  My apologies to those who don't like facts and stuff..


----------



## Buckeye

chic said:


> {snip}
> 
> Education has nothing to do with lining up for a vaccine. It's the mentality of the individual that will determine compliance, not their education level. The will of  the collective will always be subordinate to that of the methodological individualist ie. autonomous individuals, people unafraid to think and decide for themselves. Trying to make a person feel ignorant because they have decided they do not want this vaccine is, well, ignorant in itself.
> {snip}


Well, upthread (post 104)  I gave a link to a study at USC that sampled folks as to education, race, and getting the vaccine.  It was never suggested that the findings showed causality, but it is clear that Black folks are less likely to get the shot than white folks, and folks without a college education are less likely to get the shot than folks with a college education.  You can draw your own conclusions about the reasons for the correlations.  Maybe Black folks have grown tired of being guinea pigs.  Maybe college educated folks have been brain washed.  I dunno.


----------



## chic

Buckeye said:


> And here's some more information about folks who haven't had the shot..
> 
> For $100 I'll get the shot
> 
> Link is to dailymail, but study was at USC.  My apologies to those who don't like facts and stuff.


Funny how people shortchange themselves. I could use an extra $100. right now, but to get vaccinated with this stuff I'd want more than the govt. is willing to give. A shot of liquor or $100. bucks for what's on the line is insulting to say the least.


----------



## JonDouglas

*Is The CDC Changing Its Information Gathering Procedures Again?*  A Boston Globe/Bloomberg article titled _CDC Limits Reviews Of Vaccinated But Infected, Spurring Concerns_ led me to ask that question.

_Federal health officials this month decided to limit how they monitor vaccinated people who have been infected with Covid-19, drawing concern from some scientists who say that may mean missing needed data showing why and how it happens._​_At the end of April, more than 9,000 Americans were reported to be infected after being vaccinated, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While that’s a tiny percentage of the 95 million people fully inoculated at the time, researchers still want to find out what specific mechanisms may be spurring the infections._​_Rare breakthrough cases are expected since no vaccines are 100% effective. But tracking and sequencing the cases helps in figuring out who may be more at risk, whether new variants evade the vaccines and when protection from the shots begins to wane. At the same time, those infected -- some of whom are suffering widespread medical issues, even if they’re not hospitalized -- say they feel lost as a result of the lack of information._​​More at Boston Globe.

I posted this remembering it had been reported that the CDC previously altered it covid death counting methods in a way that would have significantly upped the body counts (e.g., from known/tested to suspected/symptomatic.  It is good to remember that the CDC is a government bureaucracy and not an independent organization.


----------



## Buckeye

Our friends in Germany are making the J&J vaccine available to all adults.  I hope to get the J&J jab later this week,

Germany to make J&J...


----------



## charry

We re not having any jabs ....I feel they-have not  been researched enough.....
Plus lots of reactions attached to them.....
Plus they are now saying you need the 3rd jab and a booster in-the winter....
It’s a joke ......it really is.....


----------



## Sunny

I wish the Brits would stop called it a jab.  A jab hurts.  This "shot" (another bad word for it) feels more like a gentle poke. That's what they should call it. A poke.


----------



## chic

charry said:


> We re not having any jabs ....I feel they-have not  been researched enough.....
> Plus lots of reactions attached to them.....
> Plus they are now saying you need the 3rd jab and a booster in-the winter....
> It’s a joke ......it really is.....


Are they still going on about a third shot probably being necessary? Someone is making a fortune off this.


----------



## Jules

Sunny said:


> I wish the Brits would stop called it a jab.  A jab hurts.  This "shot" (another bad word for it) feels more like a gentle poke. That's what they should call it. A poke.


Good point.  I didn’t even feel it.  It was only when the nurse said she’s put a little bandage on that I looked around. DH said the same thing.

My GD is *terrified* of needles and has refused to get a poke after seeing the news.


----------



## Liberty

Jules said:


> Good point.  I didn’t even feel it.  It was only when the nurse said she’s put a little bandage on that I looked around. DH said the same thing.
> 
> My GD is *terrified* of needles and has refused to get a poke after seeing the news.


Think is aggravates those that have a fear of needles to keep seeing these "jabbing" shot pix over and over again on the news.  It is an added bonus to hear of those "long haulers" getting 
symptomatic relief from the vaccine.  Got a good friend who has the fatigue and other issues, so hopefully he may be helped when he gets the shot.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...haulers-symptoms-are-disappearing/ar-BB1gmHRR


----------



## win231

chic said:


> Funny how people shortchange themselves. I could use an extra $100. right now, but to get vaccinated with this stuff I'd want more than the govt. is willing to give. A shot of liquor or $100. bucks for what's on the line is insulting to say the least.


Maybe the offer of free liquor is intended to do the same thing as free liquor to people while they're gambling - cloud their judgement.


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## JonDouglas

win231 said:


> Maybe the offer of free liquor is intended to do the same thing as free liquor to people while they're gambling - cloud their judgement.


Free booze used to buy a lot of votes in Chicago and perhaps it still does. I wonder how well it will buy vaccinations.


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## win231

Well, I just got off the phone with a friend who is visiting her friend who just came from her doctor she saw for Shingles.
I don't understand the connection, but her doctor said the Shingles was likely the result of her Covid shot she had 3 weeks ago.  Maybe if the Shingles virus is in someone's system but it's inactive/dormant, the vaccine may somehow be too much for the immune system to handle. Makes me wonder what other conditions can be activated.  I had shingles 36 years ago.  It never came back.
It will be interesting if they start reporting that as a side effect in the future.  She's 70.


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## JonDouglas

win231 said:


> Well, I just got off the phone with a friend who is visiting her friend who just came from her doctor she saw for Shingles.
> I don't understand the connection, but her doctor said the Shingles was likely the result of her Covid shot she had 3 weeks ago.  Maybe if the Shingles virus is in someone's system but it's inactive/dormant, the vaccine may somehow be too much for the immune system to handle.
> It will be interesting if they start reporting that as a side effect in the future.  She's 70.


There has been some chatter about that lately but you may want to check a WebMD article that tries to debunk the connection.


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## chic

JonDouglas said:


> Free booze used to buy a lot of votes in Chicago and perhaps it still does. I wonder how well it will buy vaccinations.


I hope people are smarter than that Jon. If someone is terrified at the prospect of contracting covid 19 they should be vaccinated. If not they should consider what's really on the line here. Money shouldn't be a factor. The fact that it is becoming one says something about the mind set of those pushing the mass vaccination program which is really just a trial with human instead of animal subjects.


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## Aunt Marg

win231 said:


> Well, I just got off the phone with a friend who is visiting her friend who just came from her doctor she saw for Shingles.
> I don't understand the connection, but her doctor said the Shingles was likely the result of her Covid shot she had 3 weeks ago.  Maybe if the Shingles virus is in someone's system but it's inactive/dormant, the vaccine may somehow be too much for the immune system to handle.
> It will be interesting if they start reporting that as a side effect in the future.  She's 70.


I can't help but think how many side-effects are not being reported.


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## John cycling

win231 said:


> her doctor said the Shingles was likely the result of her Covid shot she had 3 weeks ago.



Here is a video that explains why the vaccine shedding happens.  <--
Relatedly, here is a statement <-- and here is a video <-- showing a lack of any virus isolation.
The only sources I found that try to debunk the shedding are controlled by the same groups behind
the production and distribution of the vaccines, and interestingly, they've never been able to isolate any viruses.


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## win231

Aunt Marg said:


> I can't help but think how many side-effects are not being reported.


Now that they're reporting less & less people wanting the vaccine, we can't expect much honesty about harmful side effects; the whole idea is to get more people vaccinated.


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## win231

Liberty said:


> Think is aggravates those that have a fear of needles to keep seeing these "jabbing" shot pix over and over again on the news.  It is an added bonus to hear of those "long haulers" getting
> symptomatic relief from the vaccine.  Got a good friend who has the fatigue and other issues, so hopefully he may be helped when he gets the shot.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...haulers-symptoms-are-disappearing/ar-BB1gmHRR


Yes, I thought the same thing about constant videos of people getting vaccinated.  I think it's a double-edge sword.


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## Aunt Marg

win231 said:


> Now that they're reporting less & less people wanting the vaccine, we can't expect much honesty about harmful side effects; the whole idea is to get more people vaccinated.


My sentiment to a T.


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## JonDouglas

win231 said:


> Now that they're reporting less & less people wanting the vaccine, we can't expect much honesty about harmful side effects; the whole idea is to get more people vaccinated.


Remembering how President Eisenhower warned of the power of the industrial complex and knowing how government politicians and bureaucracies can push an agenda, I wouldn't bet against you.


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## Keesha

John cycling said:


> Here is a video that explains why the vaccine shedding happens.  <--
> Relatedly, here is a statement <-- and here is a video <-- showing a lack of any virus isolation.
> The only sources I found that try to debunk the shedding are controlled by the same groups behind
> the production and distribution of the vaccines, and interestingly, they've never been able to isolate any viruses.


I couldn’t play the video. There’s a few videos out on this so I’ll check them out. Here’s info that I found about the vaccination shedding. There IS actually such a thing but apparently it doesn’t happen with the Covid 19 vaccine according to this article.
https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/what-is-vaccine-shedding-covid


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## JonDouglas

win231 said:


> Now that they're reporting less & less people wanting the vaccine, we can't expect much honesty about harmful side effects; the whole idea is to get more people vaccinated.


Speaking of honesty, how about the idea that the *CDC has been dramatically overstating the outdoor transmission *of covid-19.  I saw this bit come across and then checked the source.

_The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) exaggerated the rate of outdoor transmission of the coronavirus, according to a report by The New York Times (NYT)._​​_The CDC announced in April that a majority of COVID-19 transmission happens indoors, with “less than 10 percent of documents transmission” occurring outdoors. The NYT, however, reported the number is misleading and is based on a misclassification of how some cases of the virus were spread._​​_Virologist at the University of St. Andrews Dr. Muge Cevik said the number “seems to be a huge exaggeration,” according to the NYT._​
The initial source was the New York Times. Somebody tell Fauci and then ask yourself what other numbers might be or have been a huge exaggeration. It is a valid question, not some conspiracy.


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## chic

JonDouglas said:


> Speaking of honesty, how about the idea that the *CDC has been dramatically overstating the outdoor transmission *of covid-19.  I saw this bit come across and then checked the source.
> 
> _The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) exaggerated the rate of outdoor transmission of the coronavirus, according to a report by The New York Times (NYT)._​​_The CDC announced in April that a majority of COVID-19 transmission happens indoors, with “less than 10 percent of documents transmission” occurring outdoors. The NYT, however, reported the number is misleading and is based on a misclassification of how some cases of the virus were spread._​​_Virologist at the University of St. Andrews Dr. Muge Cevik said the number “seems to be a huge exaggeration,” according to the NYT._​
> The initial source was the New York Times. Somebody tell Fauci and then ask yourself what other numbers might be or have been a huge exaggeration. It is a valid question, not some conspiracy.


There's so much more going on with this pandemic than meets the eye and certainly than the CDC/Dr. Fauci will ever admit to. No way this came from a bat. But now they have to clean up the mess. It's political and a person wears their affiliation on their faces and carries it on their phones. They're so committed to mass vaccinations they will never relent on it.


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## Aunt Marg

chic said:


> There's so much more going on with this pandemic than meets the eye and certainly than the CDC/Dr. Fauci will ever admit to. No way this came from a bat. But now they have to clean up the mess. *It's political and a person wears their affiliation on their faces and carries it on their phones.* They're so committed to mass vaccinations they will never relent on it.
> 
> View attachment 164406


Well said!

And, our authorities are hiding the truth behind their masks.


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## chic

Aunt Marg said:


> Well said!
> 
> And, our authorities are hiding the truth behind their masks.


Yes. I'm afraid we will never learn the real truth about how this virus started. It would make a good subject for the cold case files.

But Dr. Fauci was heavily involved with that lab in Wuhan creating viruses to study so they could create vaccines to cure them. His/U.S.involvement was halted in 2015 but allowed to resume in 2017. It never should have been allowed to resume. This is germ warfare. Not a natural event.


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## Aunt Marg

chic said:


> Yes. I'm afraid we will never learn the real truth about how this virus started. It would make a good subject for the cold case files.
> 
> But Dr. Fauci was heavily involved with that lab in Wuhan creating viruses to study so they could create vaccines to cure them. His/U.S.involvement was halted in 2015 but allowed to resume in 2017. It never should have been allowed to resume. This is germ warfare. Not a natural event.


I agree with all that you said wholeheartedly, Chic.


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## JonDouglas

chic said:


> Yes. I'm afraid we will never learn the real truth about how this virus started. It would make a good subject for the cold case files.
> 
> But Dr. Fauci was heavily involved with that lab in Wuhan creating viruses to study so they could create vaccines to cure them. His/U.S.involvement was halted in 2015 but allowed to resume in 2017. It never should have been allowed to resume. This is germ warfare. Not a natural event.


Fauci got grilled pretty good on that  in the Senate.  You might want to check that out yourself as any posting of that here would have political overtones that would give the mods work they don't need.


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## Ladybj

Buckeye said:


> lol - well, thanks.  That clears up a lot of your posts


  Thank you!!


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## JonDouglas

*Researchers warn that Pfizer vaccine induces complex reprogramming of innate immune responses*.  From *news-medical.net*:

Researchers in The Netherlands and Germany have warned that Pfizer-BioNTech’s coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine induces complex reprogramming of innate immune responses that should be considered in the development and use of mRNA-based vaccines.​​Jorge Domínguez-Andrés and colleagues say that while the vaccine has been shown to be up to 95% effective in preventing infection with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and subsequent COVID-19, little is known about the broad effects the vaccine may have on the innate and adaptive immune responses.​​Entire article at source.


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## chic

JonDouglas said:


> Fauci got grilled pretty good on that  in the Senate.  You might want to check that out yourself as any posting of that here would have political overtones that would give the mods work they don't need.


I saw it Jon. Thanks.


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## Buckeye

I was going to get my shot locally, but now I'm thinking I'll drive the 900 miles back to Ohio for a chance a a cool million..

Ohio to give away a million a week


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## Buckeye

Went to my local Publix grocery/pharmacy and got #1 of the Moderna vaccine. Was hoping to get the J&J "one and done" vaccine but they were out.  Go back in 4 weeks for shot #2.


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## charry

chic said:


> Are they still going on about a third shot probably being necessary? Someone is making a fortune off this.


They don’t know what they are doing chic
Since the new India strain, they are not even sure the first 2 jabs have done good


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## chic

charry said:


> They don’t know what they are doing chic
> Since the new India strain, they are not even sure the first 2 jabs have done good


I think everything is still experimental but they cannot or will not admit this.


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## Ruthanne

chic said:


> I think everything is still experimental but they cannot or will not admit this.


They do tell those not vaccinated to still follow the guidelines so we know the virus is still out there and the most dangerous to them...I feel more protected now after getting both doses and a month later.  The vaccine is 96% effective in not getting drastically ill and they say from the variants too.


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## charry

chic said:


> I think everything is still experimental but they cannot or will not admit this.


They havnt researched  these vaccines enough......boris Johnson, had no choice but to start dishing these jabs out........but now  !! giving it to under 30s and children, I  think will  be damaging in the long run x


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## JonDouglas

*Only Half Of Fauci's Organization Are Vaccinated*:  Fauci just testified that about 50% or maybe more of the people in his organization are vaccinated.   I wonder what's holding them back.

Link is HERE.


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