# Does anyone play the stock market?



## Denise1952

I am interested, although, it may be a cold day before I can ever try my "brain" at it.  I've met two people in the last, few week that spend their morning hours online, playing the stock market.

Would enjoy talking about it, if anyone has input? Thoughts on it.  I know it has to be gambling, although I think there is a certain amount of research that can help you at least "gamble" wisely??

Denise


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## Vivjen

Never 'gamble' on the stock market unless you can afford to lose the money.....don't forget the hidden costs, like commission, and know what you are doing!
to me; it is remarkably like going to a casino....


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## SeaBreeze

I never had any money to gamble with on the stock market, my sister did some day trading stuff many years ago, but I never heard her tell of any goldmines coming her way.


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## Pappy

My 401K, aka my retirement fund went into a downfall just before I retired and before I could make adjustments, I watched most of my money disappear. They can take the stock market and shove it where the sun don't shine. Still very bitter. I lost a lot of money.


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## Lon

I am certainly in the MARKET but don't know if I would say  I play it. Don't get involved in Playing the Market if you don't like loosing money or have a very low tolerance for risk. Gambling is gambling and their is no such thing as GAMBLING WISELY, plus, their are many many folks that are good at researching and studying the markets and still have lost their shirts. Let me ask you Abi.  If you woke up tomorrow and found out that you have 15 to 20% less money than the day before, how would you feel?


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## Denise1952

Vivjen said:


> Never 'gamble' on the stock market unless you can afford to lose the money.....don't forget the hidden costs, like commission, and know what you are doing!
> to me; it is remarkably like going to a casino....



Even if I can afford to gamble I don't, and it sounds by most of the replies, it really is just that, a gamble.  I wouldn't try it, I've heard enough right here to turn me totally off to it.



SeaBreeze said:


> I never had any money to gamble with on the stock market, my sister did some day trading stuff many years ago, but I never heard her tell of any goldmines coming her way.



I know there is research a person can do, but not enough security in that, still a gamble  I was curious how these guys were making a living at it.  You don't always get the "whole" story.  When I was a 21-dealer years ago, I remember learning that the dealer always wins in the long run, even with one deck as we had back then, the odds are still in the favor of the table.  Like the lottery, it's so tempting to buy a ticket, gee, just a buck, but what are the odds, and where are those billions of dollars coming from that are paying off the winners.  And how many winners compared to loses, same ole story, we have to work for what we get, well, most people do I think.  I sure never inherited anything, but neither did my folks, or their folks.  We've done ok



Pappy said:


> My 401K, aka my retirement fund went into a downfall just before I retired and before I could make adjustments, I watched most of my money disappear. They can take the stock market and shove it where the sun don't shine. Still very bitter. I lost a lot of money.



I remember some of that, my landlady, at the time, lost a lot  It was sad, especially because of the hard, warehouse work she had done her whole life.  I can't remember what they lost, but it hurt them pretty bad.  I'm sorry that happened to you Pappy, seems like you are doin ok though, thank goodness


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## Denise1952

Lon said:


> I am certainly in the MARKET but don't know if I would say  I play it. Don't get involved in Playing the Market if you don't like loosing money or have a very low tolerance for risk. Gambling is gambling and their is no such thing as GAMBLING WISELY, plus, their are many many folks that are good at researching and studying the markets and still have lost their shirts. Let me ask you Abi.  If you woke up tomorrow and found out that you have 15 to 20% less money than the day before, how would you feel?



Like packing and moving to the shelter, LOL!  I am poor now, just wanted to find out about people that do the stock market thing.  I have thought about it, but no more, not after reading this thread  I had a Biz finance class and we learned a bit about it, but the thing is, they take you through a class meant for 6 months, in half that time, hard to retain much, so I thought I'd as some folks.  Thank you much Lon, appreciate your input, as well as everyone elses Denise (abi, lol )


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## Ina

Pappy, We know how you feel, we lost 2/3 of our retirement that way too. Michael worked 25 years for the city of Houston, and they really pushed their employees into the 401K savings. Then as we were about to start enjoying our thrifty efforts, BOOM!!  We lost most of our savings, and the rest went to medical bills. :tapfoot::grrr:


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## Vivjen

I feel for you Ina, and Pappy; though I don't understand what you mean....


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## SeaBreeze

My sister's husband had a long career with JCPenney, and his retirement with the company was a 401k.  Don't know the exact amount, but they lost lots of their retirement savings when the company stock went kaput.


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## Ina

Vivjen, 401K's were retirement savings that the government and businesses pushed us to participate in. :wave:


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## Bullie76

I own several stocks, but long term positions. When you say 'play', I suppose you mean trade as in a day trader. I'm not into that. 

I retired in 2007, right before crash and the downturn in the economy.  It was a very unsettling time for sure. But I stuck it out and bought stock in several companies that were beat up just because everything was going down. Over the last few years I have regained my losses and then some. Will the stock market crash again? Perhaps. All I can say is never invest more than you stand to lose.


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## Vivjen

Thanks, Ina; and I agree with every word Bullie..


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## Jackie22

I think in the stock market you have to think long term to come out ahead, my husband and I lost money back in 2008 like everybody else but we left it alone and it has now all come back and then some.  The stock market is at an all time high, how long it will last is anyone's guess.

Anyone that has an IRA or 401k is invested in the stock market, my husband helped me back when I first setup my 401k at work many years ago and what little I have learned, he taught me, I feel safer with mutual funds, which are not as risky if you do some research...but individual stocks are more rewarding and fun to research and watch IF you have the stamina.  There are some really good tools out there for research, but it does take time and effort to get into it.


I know when Facebook went public back a while ago, I bought into that and the very next day the bottom dropped out with it...I got scared and sold it right away...did not listen to DH's advice to not panic...anyway I lost money...should have stayed cool and left it as it has grown a lot.


Yes, it is gambling like everything else but the return is a heck of a lot better than CDs at the bank.


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## Vivjen

I agree, Jackie, long term only; and research; otherwise casino it is!
i never gamble; I watched my grandfather lose all his money on the horses...


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## Athos

Yes I try it but would not say playing it. So far I have not  done so well because I am too cautious or not cautious enough.
If you look for stocks priced low with high dividends you will make some money even if the stock does not rise much.
. My mother in her 90's does much better and is very smart at it.      Try not to panic or be rash.


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## rkunsaw

You can make a small fortune in a short time in the stock market. Just start with a LARGE fortune.


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## Warrigal

:lofl: @ rkunsaw.

Never a truer word...


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## Meanderer

rkunsaw said:


> You can make a small fortune in a short time in the stock market. Just start with a LARGE fortune.


HAHA! I agree with Warrigal!


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## Son_of_Perdition

never mind


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## SifuPhil

I don't mess around on Wall Street but I DO trade cryptocurrencies, the most known one being Bitcoin.

There are hundreds of crypto-coins that can be traded, much like stocks on The Street. It is a bit like trading penny-stocks, except that here a single coin can cost less than $0.00001, and there are no limitations to trading so virtually anyone can participate.

Since I started trading cryptos a few months ago I've made out pretty good, making a thousand dollars or so total on all my trades. But just like the stock market it can all disappear rather quickly - I watched one of my "coins" get "pumped and dumped", unfortunately I was away from my computer for an hour or so (watching _The Honeymooners_ LOL) and in just that much time the coin's value fell 90% from a rather nasty dump.

You can research these coins as well, their origins, uses and general background on the creators, to get a feel for how the coin will perform. It takes time and the learning curve is steep if you aren't comfortable with computer stuff, but in my case it dovetailed quite nicely with the coins I get paid for writing so it worked out well for me.


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## Ina

Every little "bit" helps!! I cook chicken and do art works.


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## SifuPhil

Ina said:


> Every little "bit" helps!! I cook chicken and do art works.



And do you make works of art from the chicken? Is it chicken _stock_ that you get at the _market_? Are you bullish on your chicken?


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## Ina

Silly, I cook 5 lbs. of chicken 6 days a week for a Jewish restaurant, and I do portraits and art works of scenery with people in different countries.


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## Meanderer




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## Ina

I use to be called the goat lady around this neighborhood, so tease away, I can take it.


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## SifuPhil

Ina said:


> Silly, I cook 5 lbs. of chicken 6 days a week for a Jewish restaurant, and I do portraits and art works of scenery with people in different countries.



Interesting - does your kitchen have a _kashrut_ certification?


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## Ina

Nope, don't know any thing about it, every day they drop off the pots and utensils, and all the return container.  I clean the kitchen, and work area to their spects.  It get me $408.00 under the table a month, and it only takes a couple of hours a day. It's income, along with the money I get for my art, and my disability income, hubby get SS and he has a retirement pension.
We're not rich, but we don't need much.


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## SifuPhil

Ah, okay - sounds like a good set-up.

I was just wondering how you'd get around all those complicated rules - not being able to use the same pan for meat and dairy, etc. That's a pretty clever way of dealing with it, and it seems like you make a nice little penny doing it - congrats.


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## Denise1952

rkunsaw said:


> You can make a small fortune in a short time in the stock market. Just start with a LARGE fortune.



This I believe.  When I was a 21-dealer, the people that came out ahead most of the time, had a lot of money they put into the game.  Plus, they weren't fearful of losing, whether that had anything to do with it, I don't know (the fear part I mean).


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## Denise1952

Ina said:


> Nope, don't know any thing about it, every day they drop off the pots and utensils, and all the return container.  I clean the kitchen, and work area to their spects.  It get me $408.00 under the table a month, and it only takes a couple of hours a day. It's income, along with the money I get for my art, and my disability income, hubby get SS and he has a retirement pension.
> We're not rich, but we don't need much.



Geez Ina, 

You scored a cool job!!  I cook that much for myself!  And don't earn any dough:lofl:


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## kcvet

I had a Dexus plan for many years that made me some good money. it had a safety net under it for seniors. markets good I played. started to go down I was automatically pulled out.

I was also heavily invested in Northrop Grumman as well. but in 2008 got a letter from them warning me a democrat my be president. proceed at your own risk. sure enough I had to drop it.  

all my investments were rolled into one account. and the day after the election I sent it all overseas where it still waits. no way in hell was i gonna let some sticky fingered peckerhead in the WH touch a penny of my life's savings

401K. what a ripoff. If you've withdrawn any you know. get the shaft at both ends. in addition to paying tax's on the withdrawal, the amount you take out is added to your annual income. get knocked into a higher tax bracket?? tuff. drop your pants bend over and grab your ankles.


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## Denise1952

kcvet said:


> I had a Dexus plan for many years that made me some good money. it had a safety net under it for seniors. markets good I played. started to go down I was automatically pulled out.
> 
> I was also heavily invested in Northrop Grumman as well. but in 2008 got a letter from them warning me a democrat my be president. proceed at your own risk. sure enough I had to drop it.
> 
> all my investments were rolled into one account. and the day after the election I sent it all overseas where it still waits. no way in hell was i gonna let some sticky fingered peckerhead in the WH touch a penny of my life's savings
> 
> 401K. what a ripoff. If you've withdrawn any you know. get the shaft at both ends. in addition to paying tax's on the withdrawal, the amount you take out is added to your annual income. get knocked into a higher tax bracket?? tuff. drop your pants bend over and grab your ankles.



Yep, I remember I had one when I worked at Intel.  Then they downsized, and poof, away I went.  Did get what I had in my 401K but I should say, what was left when they were finished with "their" cut, lol!


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## kcvet

nwlady said:


> Yep, I remember I had one when I worked at Intel.  Then they downsized, and poof, away I went.  Did get what I had in my 401K but I should say, what was left when they were finished with "their" cut, lol!



and im finished with that scam


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## Denise1952

kcvet said:


> and im finished with that scam



Yeah, anything extra I have, will be savings from my own earnings, not some government scam, I'm with you KC.  Being below poverty level has taught me a lot.  One thing is I don't "need" everything I thought I did, and if I want something, pay cash.  My ancestors had it right


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## SifuPhil

nwlady said:


> ... One thing is I don't "need" everything I thought I did, and if I want something, pay cash.  My ancestors had it right



Truer words have never been spoken.

I've had a lot of people try to talk me into getting a Keogh plan since I'm self-employed. I tell 'em where to stick it. I'm doing fine with shoe-boxes in the closet and Bitcoins in my electronic wallet.


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## Jackie22

The record shows that the stock market does better with Democrat administrations....

http://money.usnews.com/money/perso...-guess-which-party-the-market-does-best-under

this does not include the Obama administration which is way up from the previous one.


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## Denise1952

SifuPhil said:


> Truer words have never been spoken.
> 
> I've had a lot of people try to talk me into getting a Keogh plan since I'm self-employed. I tell 'em where to stick it. I'm doing fine with shoe-boxes in the closet and Bitcoins in my electronic wallet.



Hi Phil,

I actually kept my extra in a box, I think it was a shoe-box in fact, that was in the 70's when I was waitressing, and making tips, so I'd throw them in there.  Before I knew it, I had quite a lot just saved in there.  I'd like to get serious about researching on how to keep from using a bank.  It's just too easy though, to auto-deposit etc.  They make it easier all the time to have the run of our money.  I mean when I actually think about it, I can't even "get" "my" money when I want it.  Of course there's the ATM's, but still, I have to play by their rules, you know what I'm saying.

There are still folks that carry, and use cash, and I think they are the smart ones, Denise


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## kcvet

nwlady said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I actually kept my extra in a box, I think it was a shoe-box in fact, that was in the 70's when I was waitressing, and making tips, so I'd throw them in there.  Before I knew it, I had quite a lot just saved in there.  I'd like to get serious about researching on how to keep from using a bank.  It's just too easy though, to auto-deposit etc.  They make it easier all the time to have the run of our money.  I mean when I actually think about it, I can't even "get" "my" money when I want it.  Of course there's the ATM's, but still, I have to play by their rules, you know what I'm saying.
> 
> There are still folks that carry, and use cash, and I think they are the smart ones, Denise



I always thought the mattress was the best place to hide it layful: I've have a checking account for years. no problems. also have a debit card which means i carry no money at all


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## Denise1952

kcvet said:


> I always thought the mattress was the best place to hide it layful: I've have a checking account for years. no problems. also have a debit card which means i carry no money at all




That's what I have now as well KC, no problems, except that it's in their hands ultimately.  I think the mattress would be ok, but then a flood or fire ya know.  I wonder what the odds are as far as which would actually be safer, the bank or my mattress?layful:


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## Lon

I don't play the market, but I am certainly in it and have been for a long time.


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## oldman

This is sort of an old post, but I just wanted to throw my two-cents in. First, I want to say that 401(k)'s are a good thing, even though many folks got hit hard during the recession. I am not blaming anyone, but when we get involved in any type of venture where we are risking our money, we need to be hyper-vigilant. We each have an inherent responsibility to keep on top of what our money is doing. I was a day trader many years ago and the first thing that I learned was to educate myself on the workings of the market. I knew from the very start that I was like a minnow in the ocean. The big players will determine my success or failure and like Peter Lynch once said, "If you want to be successful, find someone who is and do what he/she is doing." This meant to me to find out what the big investors are investing in and either go with their choices or at least pick some of the other top stocks within the same sector, if they are more affordable. 

During the Clinton years, we all made money during the dot com era, but that even proved to be a mistake for many. Billions were lost. Without going into the semantics of how it all played out, the simple truth is that the American people themselves were played like a cheap fiddle. Remember Alan Greenspan's warning about "irrational exuberance?" A lot of the financial channels and radio stations had warned us about the upcoming recession. However, many people did not react and move their money from stocks or bonds into safe money such as a money market fund, which most 401(k)'s have. Instead, many investors continued to hold their money into accounts that were invested into the S&P's or the NASDAQ markets. So, when the recession hit and the Dow was sitting at 14,000, it then plummeted to 6600 or somewhere in that area. It's easy to see why so many 401(k)'s were hit hard.

Like another poster here has already stated, "Don't gamble more that you can afford to lose." Are there some safe stocks? Sure, if you can afford to buy them. There is also other ways to look at investing. If you would buy GE, it may not move up or down much, but it is returning over 3% in dividends, which is higher than any bank is paying in interest. Verizon is paying over 4% and AT&T is paying over 5%. So, those would be good investments and being that they are top telecom stocks, which are considered good choices for the future development of the U.S. and world infrastructure, they are probably as safe as anything out there. 

There is all kinds of free on-line literature that will aide a person to understanding the market and how to choose stocks or most anything else you would like to know. There's also people with all kinds of advice, some good, some bad. One of the best pieces of advice that I ever got was to never buy a stock that is on its way down. And; Don't try to time the market. 

There is so much more to talk about when it comes to investing, but my advice is to proceed slowly and risk minimally. You can set up a Scottrade account and pay only $7.00 per trade. That would be $7.00 to buy and $7.00 to sell with no minimum. You can make one trade of 10 shares of GE or one trade of 1000 shares of Apple at $7.00 per trade. You can also buy no-load mutual funds at no cost to you. There are other types of trading also like, margin trading and short selling, but we can save those things for another day, if anyone is interested. 

Happy investing!


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## LogicsHere

Back just before the 2000 dotcom bust, I put my money in mutual funds as I was only earning 5% annually and the rest of the world almost 30%.  It immediately dropped 40%.  I've definitely recovered since then temporarily as the market is volatile and can drop at any time. I can't do much about my IRA which is a qualified plan or my 401K should that happen, but I've protected myself with annuities where I can annuitize at the higher of either the market value at the time or the value at the highest anniversary date should I need to. Of course, the annuitizing is not the best option as there is no beneficiary assignment, but it is there should I need to use it.


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## oldman

LogicsHere said:


> Back just before the 2000 dotcom bust, I put my money in mutual funds as I was only earning 5% annually and the rest of the world almost 30%.  It immediately dropped 40%.  I've definitely recovered since then temporarily as the market is volatile and can drop at any time. I can't do much about my IRA which is a qualified plan or my 401K should that happen, but I've protected myself with annuities where I can annuitize at the higher of either the market value at the time or the value at the highest anniversary date should I need to. Of course, the annuitizing is not the best option as there is no beneficiary assignment, but it is there should I need to use it.




I have my Grandchildren's 529 plans filled with annuities through John Hancock and New York State Life. Over the years, they have done very well. Earlier in my life, I did some investing and I learned well. I have always been very vigilant with keeping an eye on our money and moving it in and out of funds as the program allows. If I would have ignored my money, it would have been an egregious error on my part, especially during recessionary times.


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## oldman

Just checked...Apple is up 50% in one year. This is truly a buy signal, especially with iPhone 6 Plus coming out shortly and already has back-orders.


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## Ina

When my granddaughter was born in '84 I purchased $500. worth of electric and gas stock. Does that count?  I still have it too. It's for my great-granddaughter's college fund.:wave:


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## Lon

Ina said:


> When my granddaughter was born in '84 I purchased $500. worth of electric and gas stock. Does that count?  I still have it too. It's for my great-granddaughter's college fund.:wave:



That's called Investing in the Market, not Playing the Market.


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## oldman

Ina said:


> When my granddaughter was born in '84 I purchased $500. worth of electric and gas stock. Does that count?  I still have it too. It's for my great-granddaughter's college fund.:wave:



Did you buy actual natural gas or was it from a company like Columbia Gas? What electric company did you buy from? If it was from a company that has made a lot of acquisitions like Duke or Progressive Energy, you may be rich and not even know it, depending on how much you bought. (Those companies have mostly done extremely well.)

That was always my problem. I sometimes bought the right stock that went up way over expectations and either I didn't buy enough or I sold too soon. I guess sometimes I was trigger happy and I would think; WOW!! I'm up 30% and sell and then the stock would continue up. I have a problem with being patient. 

At one of the investing seminars that I went to the moderator suggested that when you buy a stock and the stock goes up quickly to sell what you have invested (getting your original investment back) and to leave invested what you have made in the stock. That way you are using your profit to make more money, hopefully. Like the man says, "There are NO guarantees."


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## Ina

Hi Oldman, Thirty years ago, a perspective came in the mail from Entex and Houston Lighting and Power. I had no clue other than from playing monopoly. I have never used money for stuff other than necessities, and I had saved up $500. in my emergency fund. It seemed like a good idea, so I bought. Those names became Reliant Energy and Center Point. Yes it is worth much more now, but it's my promise to my great-grandchildren. Before we lost our business we sent 7 of 9 grandchildren through college. Two of them went to trade schools.


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## oldman

Ina said:


> Hi Oldman, Thirty years ago, a perspective came in the mail from Entex and Houston Lighting and Power. I had no clue other than from playing monopoly. I have never used money for stuff other than necessities, and I had saved up $500. in my emergency fund. It seemed like a good idea, so I bought. Those names became Reliant Energy and Center Point. Yes it is worth much more now, but it's my promise to my great-grandchildren. Before we lost our business we sent 7 of 9 grandchildren through college. Two of them went to trade schools.




That's very kind and generous of you. Your Great-Grandchildren should be grateful for having such a kind Great Grandfather. I am going to send you a PM.


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## mathjak107

i suggest people learn the difference between gambling , speculating and investing  before even commenting .


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## Matrix

I've been day trading e-mini s&p and options for 4 years. I'm blowing up my 5th account...it's a nightmare.


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## mathjak107

trading options is gambling ....you need to pick the right option and bet on the right time frame in the right market .... there is only a winner for every loser, buying diversified funds for a long term hold is investing and only has market volatility to deal with over long periods of time .


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## Aunt Bea

When I was young I played the pink sheets and over time I managed to turn $15,000.00 into $1,600.00. 

These days I invest in boring balanced and index mutual funds.


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## mathjak107

this is why there is  a big difference between risk and volatility ... when you try to beat everyone else by betting on the outcome of one company  you need to get everything right .. the right company , in the right sector , in the right market sentiment at the right price ... but even if you guess right , you still have no idea what the competitors are doing or have on their drawing board .

look at what netflix did to blockbuster .
if you put a time frame on the above by buying options  you turned speculating into gambling .

investing is when you buy broad based funds  and are are willing to accept what markets return good or bad , over the long haul ...all you hve to deal with is volatility ...unless you turn volatility in to risk by using short term money  or bad investor behavior.

i know whenever someone uses the words " playing the market " odds are they are pretty clueless as to what investing means , and believe their own bull-sh*t  that investing is gambling .   ...these people should not be investors , but they should at least refrain from commenting until they get educated on the subject and stop parroting other mis-informed people


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## Don M.

mathjak107 said:


> i suggest people learn the difference between gambling , speculating and investing  before even commenting QUOTE]
> 
> For Sure!  Investing requires some good Self Education and Close monitoring.  A good portfolio of fairly conservative and diverse stocks will usually outperform nearly any other form of "savings".  The markets do go up and down, but if a person monitors their investments closely, they can move in and out of "risk" such that the results are positive, over time.  I just wish that 401K/IRA plans had been available when I first started working, and had been wise enough to participate for my entire working career.  The banks get rich by investing individual savings/checking accounts.


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## mathjak107

the problem is people think they are going to side step the down turns and that is where they shoot themselves in the food . study after study shows those who get out successfully fail  to get back in , in time or they bail out after the drop happened ..

nothing works better then settling on an allocation that works and leave it alone ...


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## mathjak107

if we could successfully get out in time to avoid the worst days , we would have returns that leave buffet in the dust ... not only can't we cherry pick the worst days we can't even successfully pick the worst time frames not to be in .

University of Michigan Professor H. Nejat Seyhun analyzed 7,802 trading days for the 31 years from 1963 to 1993 and concluded that just 90 days generated 95% of all the years’ market gains — an average of just three days per year.

miss those few days and you severely hurt yourself .

catching the best days instead is easy ... just stay put and stop trying to think you are going to outsmart things .

this headline is my reminder that no one can predict this stuff over and over .

Dow tops 14,000, hits record
Wall Street starts off fourth quarter with a bang, sending the blue-chip leader to all-time closing and intraday highs.
By Alexandra Twin, CNNMoney.com senior writer
October 1 2007: 5:56 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Stocks rallied Monday, with the Dow closing at an all-time high on bets that the big banks are starting to put the worst behind them - and on hopes that the Federal Reserve will continue cutting interest rates.
The Dow Jones industrial average (Charts) added nearly 192 points to end at an all-time high of 14,087.55. Earlier in the session, the Dow had hit 14,115.51, a new record intraday high. The previous intraday high was 14,021.95 from July 19.


The tech-fueled Nasdaq composite (Charts) gained 1.5 percent and carved out a new 2007 record, closing at its highest point since Feb. 2001.
The broader S&P 500 (Charts) index climbed 1.3 percent. The Russell 2000 (Charts) small-cap index jumped 2.4 percent.
"You're seeing a continuation of the recent momentum," said Chris Johnson, CEO of Johnson Research Group.
"It becomes a psychological phenomenon," he said. "Investors know that there are inherent risks in the market, but at the same time, they're rationalizing any bad news." 
Wall Street was also perhaps betting that any so-called "bad news," whether it be weak bank earnings or a dip in the ISM index, means the Fed is more likely to cut interest rates again at its next policy meeting at the end of the month.
Tuesday brings the August pending home sales report in the morning.


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## Don M.

mathjak107 said:


> the problem is people think they are going to side step the down turns and that is where they shoot themselves in the food . study after study shows those who get out successfully fail  to get back in , in time or they bail out after the drop happened ..nothing works better then settling on an allocation that works and leave it alone ...



Yup...trying to "time" the markets is where the "gambling" takes place, regarding investing.  A few percentage points of Down market activity is to be expected periodically, and usually results in Up activity a few weeks/months later.  About the Only time I've "panicked" was during that Housing Bubble of 2007....I got out early into that cycle, and sat in the money market for several months, before I was brave enough to ease back in.  Today, the biggest risk seems to be the stupidity in Global Politics.....IMO.


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## fmdog44

Do this for fun and some knowledge if you don't want to invest. Pick eight stocks, a real estate fund and a precious metal fund and an S&P mutual fund. For the eight stocks pick this fouryears top performers and four of last year's worst performers and track them. You can add in some thing you fantasize about owning.  Put them in an online portfolio like google for example all the same day entering the current price and say 10 shares. Then however often you like open your portfolio and see how they are doing. Hang on to you original choices for a couple years at least.


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## Lc jones

Vivjen said:


> Never 'gamble' on the stock market unless you can afford to lose the money.....don't forget the hidden costs, like commission, and know what you are doing!
> to me; it is remarkably like going to a casino....


I agree


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## mathjak107

Lc jones said:


> I agree


gamble for sure don't do it .... invest in broad based equity funds absolutely it should be done .


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## Lc jones

mathjak107 said:


> gamble for sure don't do it .... invest in broad based equity funds absolutely it should be done .



Not this gal


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## mathjak107

The irony is it is usually those that are under funded the most that are gun shy of investing  and are likely underfunded because they spent their accumulation years gun shy of investing ..simple index funds or diversified funds have never lost a penny over typical accumulation and retirement time frames that span decades ..even at 65 their is money that has 25-30 years before it is used to eat and that money should be growing  

A penny saved is a penny earned but alas it will always stay a penny without the most powerful force there is in finance , good compounding over decades of time ...


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## Lc jones

mathjak107 said:


> The irony is it is usually those that are under funded the most that are gun shy of investing  and are likely underfunded because they spent their accumulation years gun shy of investing ..simple index funds or diversified funds have never lost a penny over typical accumulation and retirement time frames that span decades ..even at 65 their is money that has 25-30 years before it is used to eat and that money should be growing
> 
> A penny saved is a penny earned but alas it will always stay a penny without the most powerful force there is in finance , good compounding over decades of time ...



To each his own I say but I’d rather invest in real estate, gold and silver.


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## mathjak107

Lc jones said:


> To each his own I say but I’d rather invest in real estate, gold and silver.


As long as you have growth vehicles that is fine


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## Pecos

My wife and I have both been in broad base, low fee mutual funds for over 30 years and over time we have done very well. The only individual stock that we own is some AT&T that she got by participating in the company stock option plan even when she was a lowly paid phone operator. She worked there for 18 years and gets a rather pitiful retirement. The dividend from her stock is greater than her regular retirement.
The payout from our 401k's and our IRA's is much more than either one of our SSA's and makes a major difference in our lives. It has been at least 15 years since we changed mutual funds.
Now there have been some gut wrenching days, including some recent ones, but we don't sell in a panic. Generally we take our MRD's in monthly bank transfers to help avoid wild fluctuations.
I remain astonished  by the people who fail to participate in a company 401k, especially when they can get a good match. I am also troubled by those who believe that they can pick great stocks or time the market. My adult son does this and gets burned, he also has a high priced advisor who takes a generous cut every month. He was paying his guy $263 a month to basically hold his hand. I finally convinced him to move directly to a big Vanguard fund and stop thinking he was going to beat the market. The amount that he actually has is sad compared to what he has been "investing".
I need to get off my soapbox!


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## mathjak107

Individual stocks are tough ....one bad earnings report can send them plunging ....diversified funds eliminate all that stuff ...I started in 1987 and the through wars , the Great Recession , crashes ,an entire lost decade for stocks  , my mix of nothing special fidelity funds are up 1100%


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## Aunt Bea

For me, the key to investing for retirement was the payroll savings plan where I worked and much later the 401K plan.

The old idea of paying yourself first is really true.

All it takes is a little money and a lot of time!


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## mathjak107

exactly . investing should be boring and take very little time  if any at all .... making money is all about time in the markets , not timing the markets .

no exaggeration , our portfolio mgmt takes about 30 seconds a week .


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## mathjak107

kcvet said:


> I had a Dexus plan for many years that made me some good money. it had a safety net under it for seniors. markets good I played. started to go down I was automatically pulled out.
> 
> I was also heavily invested in Northrop Grumman as well. but in 2008 got a letter from them warning me a democrat my be president. proceed at your own risk. sure enough I had to drop it.
> 
> all my investments were rolled into one account. and the day after the election I sent it all overseas where it still waits. no way in hell was i gonna let some sticky fingered peckerhead in the WH touch a penny of my life's savings
> 
> 401K. what a ripoff. If you've withdrawn any you know. get the shaft at both ends. in addition to paying tax's on the withdrawal, the amount you take out is added to your annual income. get knocked into a higher tax bracket?? tuff. drop your pants bend over and grab your ankles.




you never paid taxes on that 401k money -ever  before you took it out ... you got to grow and keep the money you compounded on the tax money for decades that you got to delay paying up front  .. that is a great deal ... now you are whining you owe tax ?


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## mathjak107

Denise1952 said:


> That's what I have now as well KC, no problems, except that it's in their hands ultimately.  I think the mattress would be ok, but then a flood or fire ya know.  I wonder what the odds are as far as which would actually be safer, the bank or my mattress?layful:


well since 2014  a simple s&p 500 fund had an 11% return a year  ... 100k is now more than 170k doing nothing but waiting .

it usually is those that need the compounding the most on the little bits they do manage to save that develop all these preconceived notions in their head  wrongly about inversting .


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## Lethe200

Although our finances are very differently managed than mathjak107, I agree with everything he has said in this thread.

We don't "play" the market. We are invested in it, and have been since the beginning of our employers' 401k's. Was it painful when the market when down? Sure. But we were years from retiring, so just kept our asset allocation in proportion and kept contributing. What goes down, then goes up again - we've seen 3 recessions/stock market slams, and approx .15 mos our portfolio is back where it was + interim contributions. *Every time.*

DH has a full pension with health benefits so we knew we would be okay after we ran the numbers numerous times in different Monte Carlo scenarios. Then MIL died and left DH her portfolio so that gave us an extra cushion to our own 401k savings.

DH retired last day of 2009 when the market was tanking. We live comfortably on his pension. Portfolio recovered, of course, and is doing well. Starting two years ago we now take distributions of 3.5% but will be dropping that down when DH files for spousal SocSec next year.

Now that we're retired our asset allocation is more conservative, currently 50/50 mix. Unlike most we use a CFP firm and our returns net of fees have been very satisfactory. As I worked in the industry for a short time, I got an intro to this firm. They do no hard advertising at all and like all top-rated CFP firms, 80+% of their business comes from current client referrals.

It is very hard for middle-class folks to get good professional advice. And it's a very complex subject if you're looking at it holistically; e.g., legal, health, and financial issues of not just retirement but also aging. So I do sympathize with those who struggle to understand financial planning. It is a complicated issue that requires a lot of thought.

And even once you get it done, you need to remember to update periodically as you go through life (my reminder that we still have not updated our legal docs, LOL!).

But no, I would never hide money in a mattress. The employer's contribution to 401k matching should never be spurned. Being in the market long-term has more than tripled what we saved. Understanding both compounding and the need to have a balanced portfolio mix, are critical elements that I wish we would insert into school curriculums *everywhere. *

I have no issues with my tax rate. All our contributions were tax-free and also grew tax-free. We're still in a lower tax bracket in retirement since there's no SocSec or Medicare taxes taken out. No complaints here.


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## mathjak107

Remember though ...people make the mistake of comparing their final years of working to their retirement tax bracket ...

That is wrong

For most of us with normal jobs we have ramped up over decades to those final levels ..we may  have a career spanning decades ...we start at the bottom and work our  way up .

So to really compare brackets you need to look at your average LIFETIME  TAX  BRACKET , which for many of us will actually be lower than our retirement bracket ...that is why Roth’s done early on can be so powerful.

People tend to look at their last years and go , I will be in a lower bracket in retirement, so I am glad I did not do Roth’s ....nope wrong comparison for most of us who ramp up


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## Uptosnuff

Pecos said:


> My wife and I have both been in broad base, low fee mutual funds for over 30 years and over time we have done very well. The only individual stock that we own is some AT&T that she got by participating in the company stock option plan even when she was a lowly paid phone operator. She worked there for 18 years and gets a rather pitiful retirement. The dividend from her stock is greater than her regular retirement.
> The payout from our 401k's and our IRA's is much more than either one of our SSA's and makes a major difference in our lives. It has been at least 15 years since we changed mutual funds.
> Now there have been some gut wrenching days, including some recent ones, but we don't sell in a panic. Generally we take our MRD's in monthly bank transfers to help avoid wild fluctuations.
> I remain astonished  by the people who fail to participate in a company 401k, especially when they can get a good match. I am also troubled by those who believe that they can pick great stocks or time the market. My adult son does this and gets burned, he also has a high priced advisor who takes a generous cut every month. He was paying his guy $263 a month to basically hold his hand. I finally convinced him to move directly to a big Vanguard fund and stop thinking he was going to beat the market. The amount that he actually has is sad compared to what he has been "investing".
> I need to get off my soapbox!



Pecos, I am also astonished at the number of people who don't participate in the 401k.  How anyone can leave free money on the table is beyond me.  That can add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars if you're with the company long enough.  Although, people don't tend to stay with companies the way they used to.

I know what you mean about your wife's pitiful pension.  I worked for Northwestern Bell for years and am in the same boat.  A few years ago they gave me the option to either keep the pension payments or take a lump sum.  I took the lump sum because I didn't know how much longer the company (now Century Link) was going to exist.  I couldn't believe the paltry sum that turned out to be.   Since I am not yet retired, I invested it in some mutual funds and it has grown.  I'm happy with the choice I made.  Still not a great amount but better than what they gave me.


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## 911

I wasn’t offered the 401(k) plan. Pennsylvania legislators instead used the matching money that we would have received to give us an enhanced pension fund. All Troopers with 25 years of service or more are eligible to receive a 75% of their highest yearly salary as their monthly pension. 

I’ve never heard anyone complain about our pension fund or payout. I stayed around for 37 years, so I have done fairly well. Being a State Trooper was the only full time position that I held after leaving the Marines. Being a Trooper is what I had wanted to be since I was 9 y/o.


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## Pecos

It looks like a wild ride for our 401K's and IRA's today!!
Hang on.


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## mathjak107

Pecos said:


> It looks like a wild ride for our 401K's and IRA's today!!
> Hang on.


nothing new .....it has been this way as long as i am an investor and that is over 30 years ....  markets typically spend 80% of their time somewhere between the last high and last low


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