# Who is God the Father?  Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the great “I AM”, or the man in the moon



## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

The humane race has had many deities throughout its history so who exactly is the main the God?  Who would determine who the main God is? If the human race stops believing in a certain God, such as Zeus, does he cease to exist?  Or does he just become a comic book character where his real origin is forgotten?

Is Greek methodology even studied in school anymore?  Would comic books or history book be used?  Were the Celtic gods christian, as someone brought up in another thread.  I would be interested in knowing.  Do all the religions believe in the same one god or god the father with different prophets?  

I have only heard of God having one child-Jesus Christ.  Are there other belief systems that claim a biological reference to a different child?  As to Mary the mother of JC, being claimed as a prophet-never heard of this either.  Can not even imagine someone would think she was a prophet.  Would like to hear more.

So how about a secular conversation about these matters where religions are mentioned but no one gets insulted, or hurt, or tries to prove their beliefs, or shove their believes on anyone.  Just a discussion on who God might actually be.  Non-believers are welcome as well to discuss that God might not be.

If there is no God, then how do miracles happen?  Just asking, lol.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 23, 2019)

You can ask, but none of us has the answers. I ponder on this a lot myself. Certainly the God of the Old Testament doesn't seem the same as the God Jesus spoke of. Plus the other name for Zeus/Jupiter is Jove which is remarkably similar to Jehovah, don't you think? The Bible talks of Sons of Heaven who mated with the daughters of man. Sounds like extra-terrestrials to me.


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## cdestroyer (Apr 23, 2019)

yup, here we go, stir the pot up good aneeda72.  Miracles? never seen one. the primary reason for a religion was because way way way back the early peoples did not understand what was going on in the world. So those with more wit found they could use that to control other people and make then do their will. 'I have the hand of God so you must do as I say or else'. 

I have seen those who profess the greatest belief to be phony blohards, who preach one thing and do another! Belief you say? I believe that when I get up the sun will still shine and gravity will still work.
I believe that you get what you earn, hard work, long hours. I may not have the best personallity but noone ever, ever complained about my work. And at times I worked for peanuts because I needed gas for my vehicle, food, and no 'sky fairy' ever gave me anything!!!   And to you moderators who don't think religious discussions should be banned or at the very least only allowed in one forum topic that way I know not to go there!!!!!


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## Rosemarie (Apr 23, 2019)

OK cdestroyer....you've said your piece. Now leave this thread to  those of us who Do want to have a serious discussion. There are always those who want to spoil things for others.


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## chic (Apr 23, 2019)

I believe miracles can happen. I don't know from who or where they come though. I don't know what God really is. I see divinity in nature, both it's perfection and it's wrath. I think humans could solve a lot of problems by becoming more humane, but that's another issue. The question of God is mind boggling. Sorry no definite answers, just random thoughts if that's okay?


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## Rosemarie (Apr 23, 2019)

Yes, chic...no-one has the answers, we can only say what we think is a possible explanation. It seems the definition of 'God' varies. There are the 'superior' beings who gave knowledge to mankind, and those who want to control us. In the past, men seemed to think that the Gods were in control of men's lives and had to be appeased by sacrifices. I should like to know where the practise of killing animals as sacrifice came from. What purpose did it serve?


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 23, 2019)

I think that this is a great thread, but I can see why some people would not want to have a discussion on something as controversial as religious beliefs, but those people can simply look for other threads that do interest them. 
Another possibility, Aneeda72, is that if the moderators decide not to allow religious discussions, then it can be opened as a discussion in the “Groups” section of this forum. 
There is a group called “Of Things Spiritual” , and this kind of discussion can absolutely be done there, without interference from those who  do not want to see it as part of the discussion boards. 
I am going to write more, but constrained for time right now, and need to think out what i want to write, so will come back to this thread later.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

What amazes me is the similarities between these main gods.  It is interesting and a valid point of discussion.  Also, cdestroyer, I am glad for your reply.  You are confusing a discussion about various gods of the past and, possibility a discussion about current gods, with religion.  Religion is different.  And belief in God is different.  This is the point I’m trying to make.

No need for emotions such as anger.  As for for stirring up the pot, lol, it’s a discussion, not a sermon.  I don’t even stir stew since I seldom cook.  Although I was dreaming of eating stew last night and woke very hungry.  OMG, now my husband is going to have to make some stew.

Please, lighten up cdestroyer.  The over 70 crowd often worked for peanuts to put food in the bellie.  I only get 800 a month in social security, still peanuts, the disabled get 500, less than peanuts.  As for the “sky fairy” reference, great words for a god you don’t believe in and has done nothing for you.

Also my point, non-believers still use a name and a reference to refer to some unknown deity.  The anger at a non-existent deity inability to help or provide for a non-believer is amazing.  It is as if the non-believers have a more complicated belief system than the believers and force themselves to deny a deity’s existent in order to account for the lack of interest the deity has in them.  Food for thought?

A miracle is the word we use to explain something that can not be explained by science.  A miracle is NOT a religious experience, IMO.  Miracles have nothing to due with weather you are Catholic or Baptist.   A miracle is sometimes, most times, linked to a deity experience.  In my Christian experience, I would link such an experience to God, JC, or Mary.

The deities I know and believe in.  Someone of a different faith would link a miracle to their deity.  If you haven’t had one, you haven’t needed one.  I think it is need based.

Rosemarie, yes I agree with the similarities.  Zeus/Jupiter=Jehovah.  Also Zeus/Jesus.  But the God of the Old Testament was was a mean scary dude, IMO.  Flooding the world and the restart, kinda of harsh.  But reminds me of those who want to drop the bombs for a reset.  History always repeats itself.


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## Falcon (Apr 23, 2019)

MAN  made  God!   NOT  the other way  around.  Believe  it  or  not.


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## Camper6 (Apr 23, 2019)

Here's the way I look at it.

It's a tough world out there so whatever it takes to get through it go for it.

Whatever you think.  Go for it. Where's the harm?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Chic, 

Your point is excellent!  A lot of us see god in nature, the beauty and the wrath.  There is NO religion in nature, the grass does not bow down to the tree.  The Big Bang theory vs God created the world vs the alien theory of creation.  Perhaps all three theories are valid.

Science has already proved that more than one type of pre-man existed.  Perhaps one race created by the Big Bang and another created by a god, a third by an alien?  One of the races won out, but, lol, which one?   Or a mix thru marriage?  If you believe in the Old Testament, the flood, then which of these races did Noah did descend from?

As for another thread, since Keesha wants to start investigating religion, (hopefully she’s reading this and doesn’t mind my suggestion), l think it would be perfect for her to start one.  I would be interested in that thread as well.  It should be started, IMO, by someone not so set in their religious beliefs as I am.  Course, we could have several threads on the subject.

A non-believer could start a thread on non-belief-that would be really interesting.  That’s what the forum is for, discussions.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Falcon said:


> MAN  made  God!   NOT  the other way  around.  Believe  it  or  not.



Ok, falcon, but which God made man?  There are lots of them.


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## Falcon (Apr 23, 2019)

Beats  me  Aneeda.  Too  big a problem.  I'm  gonna   break  for   brunch.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Falcon said:


> MAN  made  God!   NOT  the other way  around.  Believe  it  or  not.


How do you know?


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## Falcon (Apr 23, 2019)

How do I know?   Easy.............I'm   an  atheist.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

I currently view that magical force as ‘nature,’ but I’d like to learn more about religion . 

To me, all of life is miraculous from its birth to its death and with everything inclusive but I do find the beliefs man has fabricated to  understand the laws of nature, which we call religion to be very interesting. There are many people who use religion in a positive way and if it makes them feel better about themselves and how they interact with others then I’ve got no problems with it. I’ve met many beautiful religious people whom I wouldn’t change for anything in the world. Many of my close relatives are very religious and it works for them and I respect that. 
They have a right to believe whatever they want.

This is always an interesting conversation


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Here’s a thought.  The theory of evolution-our bodies evolved from apes as a natural event. But God, as the Holy Spirit, provided our minds, our brain, the essence of our being, what makes us, us.

We all know, due to medical advances that our bodies can live long after our spiritual essence has fled, our brain has died.  What’s left is an empty, IMO, worthless shell whose bits and pieces can be shared with any other human of the same blood type.

Perhaps, our bodies were not made in His image, but he shared His essence with us.  Our essence was made in his image.

Makes more sense, to me.  Since god is unseen and our spirits are unseen.  I am a universal donor.  You can, literally, have a piece of me. LOL!


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Falcon said:


> How do I know?   Easy.............I'm   an  atheist.


But that doesn’t explain how you know. You’ve just told me your religious preferences without the why:shrug:


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## Ruth n Jersey (Apr 23, 2019)

I was brought up in the Protestant denomination. Went to Sunday school, not because I wanted to. In later years much to my Mom's dismay I became what my Mom called an Agnostic. I questioned everything. I have since simplified my beliefs. I try to be the best person I can and at times have failed. I keep trying. Nature brings me the most peace when I'm stressed. I have to admit once in awhile I hear an old hymn that was sung when I was in Sunday school and enjoy listening. Just like the music I guess. I get nothing out of a mere mortal explaining the Bible to me. I'll draw my own conclusions if need be.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 23, 2019)

The evidence doesn't point to mankind being evolved from apes, but that mankind is a species of ape. We are still excavating and learning but it seems that in the past, there were several species of humanoid living at roughly the same time. Some have died out, and others have survived. (Here it gets difficult, because I have said this on another site and been accused of racism, which is nonsense). Of the humans in existence at the moment, there are different races, each with its own characteristics. Consider the difference between a sub-sahara  African, and an Oriental. Both of the human race but totally different from each other. Which rather makes nonsense of the belief that God made man in his own image.


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## RadishRose (Apr 23, 2019)

I'll add a few thoughts before I leave this topic alone, echoing "we'll never really know".

I think there is no proof god is a father, or a "main" god.



> If the human race stops believing in a certain God, such as Zeus, does he cease to exist?


Maybe he never existed in the first place.



> Is Greek methodology even studied in school anymore?


Do you mean "mythology"?



> As to Mary the mother of JC, being claimed as a prophet-never heard of this either. Can not even imagine someone would think she was a prophet.


We'll never know whether she or Mary Magdalene were. Hebrew men of that era did not consider women worthy of any knowledge or importance in these matters. But I'm open to it.




> If there is no God, then how do miracles happen?


If so, it's just because you don't understand the "Miracle". It was miraculous to fly in a machine, or transplant a heart or genetically alter a living creature.



> Plus the other name for Zeus/Jupiter is Jove which is remarkably similar to Jehovah, don't you think?


No. I think Jehova is more likely from Yahweh, one of 7 names the Hebrews had for god.
See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah



> The Bible talks of Sons of Heaven who mated with the daughters of man. Sounds like extra-terrestrials to me.


Could be! Historically tho' I think peopled believed their children were angels, altho' some believed they were giants. Who knows?

These are just some thoughts.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

RadishRose,

I blame Alexa, I can’t spell, never could.  Yes, it’s mythology-the early Greek stuff, lol, thanks.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Rosemarie, 

If I remember correctly some believe man was made of clay, different types of clay could account for different types of appearances.  However, our various races are not totally different from each other.  We are only different in our appearance-blood, bone, bits and pieces are the same and somewhat interchangeable.

My husband’s blood type is AB, rare.  I am O.  I can donate blood to him, he cannot donate blood to me.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Chic,
> 
> Your point is excellent!  A lot of us see god in nature, the beauty and the wrath.  There is NO religion in nature, the grass does not bow down to the tree.  The Big Bang theory vs God created the world vs the alien theory of creation.  Perhaps all three theories are valid.
> 
> ...



I just wondered if we could start a conversation about how religion started and evolved without getting into conflict but I suppose that old saying is true... never discuss politics or religion. 
I wasn’t sure how you were going to start the conversation. Perhaps this should be done in the private group sections?
Im interested in discussing the historical facts about Christianity and how it evolved or Buddhism or any religion and discuss what the common denominators are. It appears there are more similarities than differences.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

I remember reading a book where a woman had her mother die who had a strong faith in Christianity. And this daughter who wanted to be with her mother herself after she herself died, twisted herself into all kind kind of pretzels to make herself into  a "believer".  And so she asked, if humans were evolved from apes, how come there are still apes? 

Study evolution and you will get your answer.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> The humane race has had many deities throughout its history so who exactly is the main the God?  Who would determine who the main God is? If the human race stops believing in a certain God, such as Zeus, does he cease to exist?  Or does he just become a comic book character where his real origin is forgotten?
> 
> Is Greek methodology even studied in school anymore?  Would comic books or history book be used?  Were the Celtic gods christian, as someone brought up in another thread.  I would be interested in knowing.  Do all the religions believe in the same one god or god the father with different prophets?
> 
> ...


When I said that there are many different beliefs about how the bible is interpreted I said in another thread that there are some religious groups that believe that Mary was the prophet. It was something my husband told me. He said that a university group discovered old artifacts  that suggests this. I personally don’t know anything about it but mentioned it just to show the full diversity of beliefs.

Mythology isn’t something I know anything about  so can’t contribute there either no do I really understand the connection so can’t contribute. In fact I’m just more confused. Lol


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Olivia said:


> I remember reading a book where a woman had her mother die who had a strong faith in Christianity. And this daughter who wanted to be with her mother herself after she herself died, twisted herself into all kind kind of pretzels to make herself into  a "believer".  And so she asked, if humans were evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?
> 
> Study evolution and you will get your answer.




Thats another area I don’t understand. Religious people can’t or don’t believe in evolution. I very much believe in evolution because it’s science and science is one if my favourite subjects. Evolution is a very interesting topic however evolution and religion clash. They dont seem to both exist together.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha said:


> Thats another area I don’t understand. Religious people can’t or don’t believe in evolution. I very much believe in evolution because it’s science and science is one if my favourite subjects. Evolution is a very interesting topic however evolution and religion clash. They dont seem to both exist together.



No, you're talking about Christians, not religious people. There are many kinds of Christian denominations. There are the extreme conservatives and the liberals. They have very different beliefs. Evolution does not discount belief in a creator and how creation happened.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha said:


> When I said that there are many different beliefs about how the bible is interpreted I said in another thread that there are some religious groups that believe that Mary was the prophet. It was something my husband told me. He said that a university group discovered old artifacts  that suggests this. I personally don’t know anything about it but mentioned it just to show the full diversity of beliefs.
> 
> Methology isn’t something I know anything about either so can’t contribute there either no do I really understand the connection so can’t contribute in fact I’m just more confused. Lol



Of course you're confused. That's the whole point of how whole groups of people are taken in. Study and educate yourself. I personally have a ton of skepticism about anything.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

H





Olivia said:


> No, you're talking about Christians, not religious people. There are many kinds of Christian denominations. There are the extreme conservatives and the liberals. They have very different beliefs. Evolution does not discount belief in a creator and how creation happened.


Yes but Christianity covers many dominations. That would also mean disbelief in dinosaurs. 
Another thing my husband said before he left was that they don’t believe in homosexuality. They believe that if someone is homosexual that it’s the devil in them. What happens if one of their children is? 
Do they get abandoned? And if that’s the case then what about the golden rule of treat others how you’d like to be treated?
I’m not trying to be difficult. My husband is STILL laughing at me. 



Olivia said:


> Of course you're confused. That's the whole point of how whole groups of people are taken in. Study and educate yourself. I personally have a ton of skepticism about anything.


I studied evolution as part of my biology course but I wish I had studied religion at some point. It actually makes sense from things that otherwise didn’t. 

You had a Christian mother and Buddhist father. How did they make their marriage work without going into details. 

I know one of my BIL’s married a Catholic so switched religions. It worked for them. 
I’ve got a lot of skepticism about about most things. I don’t have any blind faith. For myself I HAVE to understand but I DO have faith; it’s at a different level I suppose.
Clearly I need to educate myself more in this area.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha. Are you taking me in anyway seriously? Why am I even bothering here? There are homosexual ministers that most of you don't care to know about. I will. be no longer wasting my time on this topic.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

They didn't switched religions. They just accepted each the were they were. Pretty weird. yeah?


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

I’ve decided to study historical Jesus to start with for a different point of view about the sane prophet. 
Yes I know many people have a problem with homosexuality. I just didn’t realize how much of a sin it is in the eyes of the bible. That would be a difficult thing to deal with if you came from a very religious family.


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## RadishRose (Apr 23, 2019)

J'ever think the Big Bang Theory was the way God created everything?


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I’ve decided to study historical Jesus to start with for a different point of view about the sane prophet.
> Yes I know many people have a problem with homosexuality. I just didn’t realize how much of a sin it is in the eyes of the bible. That would be a difficult thing to deal with if you came from a very religious family.



In that case, you might want to start with Rev.John Shelby Spong. 




> John Shelby "Jack" Spong is a retired bishop of the Episcopal Church. From 1979 to 2000, he was the Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. A liberal Christian theologian, religion commentator and author, he calls for a fundamental rethinking of Christian belief away from theism and traditional doctrines.
> 
> *Born: *June 16, 1931 (age 87 years), Charlotte, NC


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Yes I have considered it. 
I’ll stop there. :lol:


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Olivia said:


> In that case, you might want to start with Rev.John Shelby Spong.


Perfect. Thank you very much. A retired bishop theologist. 
Cool.


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## Garydavid (Apr 23, 2019)

If.we dont look out thats how God will make everything dissapear.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

It’s interesting that I start a thread about god, and the gods over time, and most everyone mentions religion.  It’s hard for people to separate the two.  Yet, they are separate matters.

Greek mythology included tales of Sinbad.  I’m sure you’ve seen the movies, Keesha.  If you are going to start from the beginning then, as I said, the Old Testament is the beginning.  You could get a child’s/teenagers version of the Bible stories to start from the library.  It will give you a sense of the stories.  These are the same stories, just written for ease of reading.

The Old and New Testament should, IMO, be read in the original, King James Version.  When translated into American English, words change and the meanings seem to be changed.  But you do as you like.  If you start a thread in the groups thread, I will respond there (if I can find it) and we can have discussions.  Lol, I must have a bible around here somewhere.

I just gave my childhood bible to my granddaughter.  I can go buy another, no big deal.  I am no bible expert, but I’d enjoy the discussions, the questioning of what is written, and the confusion of it all.  Others probably would as well.  Let us know.


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## Olivia (Apr 23, 2019)

> It’s interesting that I start a thread about god, and the gods over time, and most everyone mentions religion. It’s hard for people to separate the two. Yet, they are separate matters.



In Pantheism, the creator and the creation are one. So, there is no separate "God" to worship. So, yes, there is such a thing.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

I think the first post covered so many topics which included words such as Jesus, Old Testament, God, Zeus, Greek methology, Mary as the prophet that it’s quite easy to assume that it’s about religion and I think if mainstream has been studying this same subject for years which their ‘faith’ is based on then why would they want to have their minds changed? That’s what blind faith is about so I do understand that part. Most people who are into their religion are into it passionately. 
Somebody told me I should stick to what I know so I think I will do that. I’m going to read about historical Jesus only because I’m fascinated with him as a good, humble man. I’m sure there must be documented studies of his life without studying the bible. 

To be honest this topic as is might be too overwhelming for me to participate in. 
I’m sure there will be others who will join in. My spirit soars studying enlightenment. 
It’s a gentler, softer study.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 23, 2019)

Why contemplate the concept of a God when the sanswer is guaranteed to us all when we die?


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Why contemplate the concept of a God when the sanswer is guaranteed to us all when we die?


Because it’s a discussion board. It’s made specifically for discussing.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2019)

I believe this forum's ban on politics is a prudent one. I suggest the we add religion to that ban. I don't think a supposedly secular forum is the right arena for members to opine about their religious ideation. It is inevitable in these discussions that one viewpoint is ridiculed by some, As this one already has. No one's religious ideation is any greater than anybody elses.  The fact that one fervently believes does not make it so. I resent being told that if I feel offended don't read this thread.  I suggest that one does not knowingly post threads, which are disruptive, and do offend others. I would put a ban on religious discussions.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Is the answer guaranteed to us all?  Idk.  There is freedom of choice.  A non-believers freedom of choice would/might extend past his death, and, therefore, the answer would not be known to that individual.  That individual would be denied an afterlife because he did not believe in an afterlife.  Food for thought.

Keesha was JC humble?  I don’t think so, he displayed a certain arrogance when his parents, Joseph and Mary, searched for him.  Upon asking him where he had been he replies something to the effect that he “was about his father’s business.”  Was he our definition of a good man.  Perhaps no.  He did destroy a church.

When Mary bought oil and, I think Judas objected or whoever, saying the money could be used to feed the poor; JC responded that he should have the comfort of the oil on his feet.  Cause there will “always be poor among us.”  Well, he nailed that one.  I don’t have blind faith.  JC was a man.  He had the flaws of a man-that was the whole point-the lack of perfection.

When he ascended to heaven, he became the Christian God.  One assumes a lesser God since he is not God the father, or the Holy Ghost now known as the Holy Spirit.   It’s all speculation.  As for sticking with what you know, you know as much as anyone else, and as little.  The Bible was written by men, it’s stories of a past time, faded memories, and a leap of faith.

Enjoy your studies.


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I believe this forum's ban on politics is a prudent one. I suggest the we add religion to that ban. I don't think a supposedly secular forum is the right arena for members to opine about their religious ideation. It is inevitable in these discussions that one viewpoint is ridiculed by some, As this one already has. No one's religious ideation is any greater than anybody elses.  The fact that one fervently believes does not make it so. I resent being told that if I feel offended don't read this thread.  I suggest that one does not knowingly post threads, which are disruptive, and do offend others. I would put a ban on religious discussions.



I will admit at this time I have not had time to read this whole thread...

That being said..I don't understand why you would suggest that a thread YOU don't particularly want to participate in be banned....

If you want to start a forum of your own, then you will have control over what is banned and what is allowed.


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## Falcon (Apr 23, 2019)

Well said  Seeker !    :applause2:


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

Fuzzybuddy

The problem is that someone is always going to be offended by something on every single thread that is written.  If you tried to have a thread that offended no one, than you couldn’t have a forum.  I think you are more offended that someone told you or suggested to you what you should do, than offended by this discussion which is not about religious ideation.

I may not know what you mean by religion ideation anyway.  Your comment does remind me of someone who complains about a TV show and how it shouldn’t be on when all they have to do is change the channel.  Then it wouldn’t be on for them.  It’s a simple fix.

I think this discussion has been and is extremely interesting.  I appreciate everyone’s view point, yours included.  It’s up to you to continue reading, or not.  A ban is not necessary, IMO.  Common sense, good manners, and kindergarten rules might be.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2019)

As far a belief in gods is concerned, do you really believe that Osiris lost his penis? There are texts all over Egypt, which tell of the divine tale. Are we supposed to take it as fact?  Or is it merely an immortality ideation? It is strange that most of the world's gods and religions are initially proposed by a human.  Is this man's desire to live past death, or his fear of it. Yes, Osiris's lost penis is figurative of most gods. It is a magical tale of overcoming death. It is amazing that most gods have also a magical birth. Thousands of years ago, magical births were not so infrequent. Virgin births or god inseminated births were common for kings/royalty. Most rulers had some type of magical birth- Caesar , Alexander, kings, prophets and  emperors. There is evidence that humans use gods as a source of great magic to change their life's situation. Most areas had a local god, which had great magic, who protected its worshipers. In Greece, gods could be bribed. Again, most gods had very human traits, such as envy, hatred, etc. So, did Osiris lose his penis. I guess that depends if you believe he had one.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

I don’t know Osiris so don’t know whether or not he had a penis.


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## RadishRose (Apr 23, 2019)

I heard he lost it in a poker game. 

Lorena Bobbit was dealing.


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

RadishRose said:


> I heard he lost it in a poker game.



:lofl:


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I don’t know Osiris so don’t know whether or not he had a penis.



There ya go now I gotta go look up this guy.....


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 23, 2019)

I’m with radishrose (great minds think alike, lol).  Was Osiris related to John Bobbitt?  Was Lorena one of his partners?


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> There ya go now I gotta go look up this guy.....



I dunno. Do you see a difference?


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

It’s hard to tell whether there’s a penis or not. :shrug:


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I dunno. Do you see a difference?
> 
> View attachment 64773



Was this picture "taken" before or after the poker game?:lofl:


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## Falcon (Apr 23, 2019)

:lol1:


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2019)

The reason for banning religion form this forum is that I don't want to be proselytized by an over religious Christian,  who assumes that any other belief is to be ridiculed and discounted. If you want to discuss your personal Christian beliefs there is a section to do so. The fact that some keep putting articles of faith in the secular sections is affront to those who are do not share your veiled attemps at proselytizing, and belittling me and my beliefs.


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

Nobody belittled you based on your secular beliefs...at least I didn't see it.

You are the one that decided the thread should be banned based on "YOUR' beliefs.....


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## Warrigal (Apr 23, 2019)

My eyes aren't functioning too well at the moment and I haven't taken the time to read this whole thread. 
Apologies if I am totally out of step with the discussion. What follows are my own thoughts.

Pre the common era, the gods were either powerful deities that needed to be appeased lest they take their revenge or they were lesser spirits to whom people could pray for help. Gods were located in their own spaces. There were the household gods and the woodland gods, gods of the sea and  the sky and so many that people felt sometimes that they needed to selectively worship the one(s) that might be most profitable as protector. Cults, as in the cult of ISIS, Zeus, Poseidon, Hera etc were supported with temples and rituals. 

The ancient Hebrews were  a wandering people, crossing the land with their flocks looking for good pastures. Somewhere in this fluid time the idea of a single creator god arose, a god that created the land, sea and sky and all creatures  found in this realm. This god seemed close on the tops of mountains but was mostly a terrifying presence, judging humanity, giving and taking on a grand scale. His name was a secret, to look upon him was death. A set of rules (the Law) developed (or adopted - Hammurabi?) to allow humanity to coexist with the deity without causing relentless punishment. The Law is still the foundation of Jewish religious practice.

The idea of God the Father seems to have caught on (it may have been there earlier in some cults) in Jesus' time. He encouraged his followers to pray using the word Abba which in Aramaic is very similar to Daddy. It is a term used in families, not temples. It certainly strengthened his message of acceptance and love of all because if we are all children of the creator god, then we are all one family - the family of man and all connected to each other. The parable of the prodigal son depicts God as a loving and forgiving father who does not punish his sinful son. Contrast this idea with the earlier image of a god who wipes out armies and kings and who destroys sinners on a grand scale. 

Later, Jesus followers extended this idea to accommodate the idea of a creator god, a god who is both companion and friend and an invisible presence in all things. The result was the rather incomprehensible idea of a triune god which we  call the Trinity. As far as I know, this is a concept unique to Christianity.

I am a follower of The Way which means that I try to model my behaviour towards my fellow man on  the teachings of Jesus. I am not a great prayer but like the ancient Hebrews, when I do feel the need to pray, the location is irrelevant. I need no mountain top, no temple, no cathedral nor any church building. How do I address the deity? It hardly matters. I can say Loving God or Our Father or Spirit of God or Sweet Jesus but it is the image in my head that helps me to pray. If I see God as  a companion walking with me on my life's journey I may appeal or share my thoughts with Jesus. If I am feeling bad about myself for something I have done or not done, if I am ashamed of myself I may seek solace, forgiveness and strength to do better from Father God. I have no idea how prayer works to benefit us personally or collectively but Jesus encouraged it, and as I said above, I am a follower of his teachings. This is where faith steps in to fill a lack of understanding. That said, when I have asked for a fish, I have never been given  a snake. 

People of faith have very different images of deity that they find helpful. Some have no need of such images at all. 
If the goal is to find a way to live a morally good life then I suppose the test we must apply is does the image assist us to achieve our goal.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2019)

Bgcdcgfv


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## Keesha (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker said:


> Was this picture "taken" before or after the poker game?:lofl:



:lol1:


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> No Seeker, I have been belittled. I am not a Christian. So, this what is written in this thread.
> I have only heard of God having one child-Jesus Christ.
> It is as if the non-believers have a more complicated belief system  than the believers and force themselves to deny a deity’s existent in  order to account for the lack of interest the deity has in them.



I was saying that I didn't see it in this thread..I'm not saying you have never been.

Have you ever heard that God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit?

How complicated is that for a believer?

If your waiting for a deity to intervene and perform a miracle in your life..you are asking for proof...Which has nothing to do with having faith.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeker, I have respect for your religious beliefs. As I have said, in the forum for years, is no ones religious ideation is more valid or better in any way. than anyone elses. So, explain to me why there are threads in this forum, which proselytized Christianity, under the guise of religious discussions. Ya know maybe I don't want to read about god's one true son Jesus Christ.  The WAY. ETC, ETC, Nor do I want to believe in Mary, or any Christian icons. I don't have to hear about the "momentous" events of Easter" I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!! What gives Christians the right to babble on about the tenets of their religion? And why am I supposed to believe in only one god? Furthermore I don't want to be called a sinner.   This forum is not  a  Christian Sunday school. 
  







   							 						 					 					 						And when atheists talk about religion, there get the very "Christian" response of shut up, go away, " if you feel offended don't read it".


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## Seeker (Apr 23, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Seeker, I have respect for your religious beliefs. As I have said, in the forum for years, is no ones religious ideation is more valid or better in any way. than anyone elses. So, explain to me why there are threads in this forum, which proselytized Christianity, under the guise of religious discussions. Ya know maybe I don't want to read about god's one true son Jesus Christ.  The WAY. ETC, ETC, Nor do I want to believe in Mary, or any Christian icons. I don't have to hear about the "momentous" events of Easter" I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!! What gives Christians the right to babble on about the tenets of their religion? And why am I supposed to believe in only one god? Furthermore I don't want to be called a sinner.   This forum is not  a  Christian Sunday school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I appreciate that you have respect for my beliefs..although I don’t consider them religious…


I am in no way prosecuting you for your beliefs..We all have free will. Most times we prosecute ourselves.


If you don’t want to read about God’s son then you don’t have to, but if you do and strike up a conversation then you are there…


Christians have the same rights as anyone else to  post. Color me stupid but I have yet to find a thread that an Atheist was shut down because they professed to be so.


Why would be being called a sinner bother you if you don’t believe?


I’m not asking you to shut up and go away..Actually I’m enjoying our conversation…


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## Capt Lightning (Apr 24, 2019)

I've often thought one of the best and passionate responses to this came from Stephen Fry in an interview on Irish TV.

The following is a transcription of a notably controversial passage of dialogue from Gay Byrne's interview on Irish TV, specifically from an episode of a 'The Meaning of Life' series, where Stephen Fry was the guest of the day.
It was uploaded to Youtube by the Irish public service televion RTÉ, and received more than two million on-line viewings, prior to actual broadcasting on Sunday, 1 February 2015. 

Gay Byrne:
... suppose it's all true and you walk up to the pearly gates and you are confronted by God. What would Stephen Fry say to him, her or it? 
Stephen Fry:
_I will basically (it's known as theodicy I think) I'll say, "Bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you! How dare you create a world where there is such misery that is not our fault! It's not right. It is utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I'd say._​And you think you're going to get in?_Oh, but I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to get in on his terms. They're wrong.

Now, if I died and it was Pluto, Hades and if it were the twelve Greek gods, then I'd have more truck with it because the Greeks didn't pretend not to be human in their appetites, and in their capriciousness and their unreasonableness; they didn't present themselves as being all-seeing, all-wise, all-kind, all-munificent; because the god who created this universe (if it was created by God) is, quite clearly, a maniac - utter maniac, totally selfish.

We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him? What kind of god would do that?

Yes, the world is very splendid, but it also has in it insects whose whole life-cycle is to burrow into the eyes of children and make them blind. They eat outwards from the eyes. Why did you do that? Why? Why did you do that to us? You could easily have made a creation where that didn't exist. It is simply not acceptable.

So, you know, atheism is not just about not believing there's a god - but, on the assumption there is one, what kind of god is it? It's perfectly apparent that he is monstrous, utterly monstrous, and deserves no respect whatsoever. The moment you banish him your life becomes simpler, purer, cleaner - more worth living in my opinion.

_​That sure is the longest answer to that question I've ever had in this entire series. Thank you so much Stephen. 


(Although not present on the Youtube clip from Irish TV it is, perhaps, interesting that the dialogue continues with the following sentence):- 
_Well, there wasn't a thunderbolt was there?



_Perhaps a more measured response was from Sir David Attenborough.

“Every society in the world has found it necessary to produce a story to account for the fact that humanity is on earth,” he said. “The Australian Aboriginals think that the first humans were regurgitated by a great rainbow serpent in the sky, the people in Thailand think the beginning of the world was a huge pool of milk and a snake was pulled by demons, and the milk coagulated and that formed human beings; and there was a time, two and a half to three thousand years ago, when people on the east end of the Mediterranean thought woman was made from the rib of the first man.
“If somebody says to me I believe every word of the Bible is true, you can’t argue against that degree of irrationality… there is actually a way of looking at the natural world and seeing the evidence and it’s all there. And what’s more it’s the same evidence whether it’s in Australia or Northern Europe or wherever. It’s all the same — it all produces the same answer and you can all see the evidence — if you reject that then there’s nothing I can say.”​​


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> The reason for banning religion form this forum is that I don't want to be proselytized by an over religious Christian,  who assumes that any other belief is to be ridiculed and discounted. If you want to discuss your personal Christian beliefs there is a section to do so. The fact that some keep putting articles of faith in the secular sections is affront to those who are do not share your veiled attemps at proselytizing, and belittling me and my beliefs.


This forum is called "Hot Topics" so it seems like an appropriate place for this thread since there isn't a forum called "Articles of Faith".

The fact that you feel belittled for your beliefs here is unfortunate but it's not really about you. It's about a group of members seeking the truth. Do you feel ridiculed if someone is genuinely curious as to how an atheist might answer questions like, "what do you do with your guilt?", "where did the universe come from?" and "can you prove there is no God?".

I Peter 3:15 says "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." No one gets argued into heaven so the conversation is best left up to God.

Personally, I believe in God, the creator of all things. If by some bizarre chance I'm wrong then I've lost nothing. In fact I've gained because at least it made me a happier person on many levels. On the flip side, if a non-believer is wrong then they lose everything. They lose any future beyond this world and apart from God. I would never ever ever want to chance that. 

It's not out of fear that I believe though. I believe because of the joy and peace God has given me. And because of the things God has taken me through. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for my faith in God.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

I have not heard of followers of “The Way”, but Warrigal’s description of it seems very in line with my personal belief system so thanks for posting the information.  At some point in time, I’ll have to learn more about this, but I am never in a rush to do anything.

I see no one proselytizing their religion especially since the thread is not about religion.  Talking about one’s belief is not proselytizing, no one is attempting to turn anyone into a Christian or any other religion.  No one is trying to get anyone else to believe in a deity called God.  God forbid that should happen, lol.  Believe or don’t believe, up to you.

Eat your veggies or don’t.  No one, on this forum, is going to pick up a green bean and started forcing it into your mouth.  We might talk about green beans, we might love green beans, we might grow green beans, we might sell green beans.  But, if someone doesn’t like green beans, we might suggest that someone leave the green bean discussion to those that do like green beans; and want to discuss how many varieties of green beans there are.

The off topic comments widen the discussion and that’s great.  It makes us think.  This isn’t a Sunday school of 8 year olds.  It’s a senior forum of older folk who are growing closer, every day, to finding the answers we have sought our entire lives.  The discussion might bring some comfort and greater understanding to others.  Or it might not.

There is NO HARM being done here.  There is no need to be defensive about anyone’s beliefs or non-beliefs.


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## Warrigal (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda, Christianity did not spring fully formed from the base of the Cross. It began as a movement within Judaism when Jewish followers of Jesus referred to themselves as 'The Way' probably coming from Isaiah 40:3, "prepare the way of the Lord." The word Christian was first recorded around 100AD in Antioch (modern Turkey). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

A modern comparison would be the emergence of Methodism from within the Church of England. The Wesley brothers developed a simple 'method' of living out their Christian faith and attracted other worshipers and converts to them. This holiness movement within the English church became known as the Methodists. It was a much simpler, stripped down version of Christianity without a lot of the pomp that had accumulated and in time, just as the early disciples of Jesus became separate from their Jewish roots, so too the Methodists left the traditional structures of Anglicanism.


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## Nihil (Apr 24, 2019)

Camper6 said:


> Here's the way I look at it.
> 
> It's a tough world out there so whatever it takes to get through it go for it.
> 
> Whatever you think.  Go for it. Where's the harm?



You're right. It's safer for an observer to let these games play out and not get involved. If I talked about the problems religion causes, the religious might say I'm persecuting them. People who take advantage of the religious might say I'm persecuting them. 

BTW, on what island are we meeting for cocktails today?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

Warrigal,

I read the article, not a deep read, but I read it, so thanks.  It was interesting.  I didn’t realize how many “split offs” there were from the Jewish faith in early times, or that some of those split offsdied out early.  (I also remember hearing the Isaiah quote from my younger days.)

Our family, through my mother, is of Irish decent.  I often wondered if that had some vague influence on why I decided to be baptized catholic instead of southern Baptist except for my great respect of Mother Mary and the role she played.  I have never been able to overcome some of my early Baptist beliefs which I keep solely to myself.  I view those beliefs as rather too harsh for today’s world.  They were probably too harsh for yesterday’s world.  This is my opinion, not a judgement.

The Jewish faith, or race, interest me as (as other wandering races such as Gypsies) in a limited way.  I’ve never understood if early wandering people were a religious group, a race, or both.  I still don’t know.  I am speaking historically.  I know the Jewish people believed in the God of the Old Testament.  What early god did Gypsies believe in?

My family stories indicated that some German Jews, through my father’s line, were in our genealogy.  Interestingly enough, my nephew, raised Christian, married a Jewish woman and converted to the Jewish faith.  His children are, of course, Jewish.  I often think the children, grandchildren of farmers are drawn to the land even if they have never seen or been on a farm.

American Indians have close ties to the land as well.  I love to raise veggies, flowers, work in the dirt.  Is this a product of my grandparents being farmers? Or does this intense connection to the land come from my now very watered down American Indian blood?  (One percent American Indian according to testing.  Kick A Poo according to mom and an aunt.)  Perhaps some ancient American Indian deity influences?

So my question, for everyone would be, is there some genetic, spiritual, unknown pull that draws us to certain deities, religions, and the earth itself in terms of our belief systems?


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 24, 2019)

So my question, for everyone would be, is there some genetic, spiritual,  unknown pull that draws us to certain deities, religions, and the earth  itself in terms of our belief systems? 
*No. All religions are death ideation.*


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 24, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Seeker, I have respect for your religious beliefs. As I have said, in the forum for years, is no ones religious ideation is more valid or better in any way. than anyone elses. So, explain to me why there are threads in this forum, which proselytized Christianity, under the guise of religious discussions. Ya know maybe I don't want to read about god's one true son Jesus Christ.  The WAY. ETC, ETC, Nor do I want to believe in Mary, or any Christian icons. I don't have to hear about the "momentous" events of Easter" I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN!!!!! What gives Christians the right to babble on about the tenets of their religion? And why am I supposed to believe in only one god? Furthermore I don't want to be called a sinner.   This forum is not  a  Christian Sunday school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The basic idea of any forum is that people have conversations about a variety of topics, especially on a Seniors’ Forum like this one. Obviously, there will be topics that we are interested in, and topics that we are not going to be interested in, and there is NO requirement to participate in every discussion if you have nothing to impart to that topic. 

As an example, I could care less about any kind of sports, so I don’t even look at sports threads when there are any. Let the people who have some knowledge and interest participate. 

People who have a belief in God, like to discuss this topic, and there is no reason why it can’t be done on the forum, just like cooking, or financial investments, or any other topic. 
  Since you stated that you have no interest in even reading about anything concerning religion, it completely baffles me as to WHY you (and other atheists) are here protesting a thread just because it does not interest you personally ?? ?


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## Sunny (Apr 24, 2019)

Very interesting thread!

Captain Lightning, thanks for the Stephen Fry interview. That pretty much summarizes my take on the subject also. It has occurred to me many times that if there really was a deity "up there" somewhere who fits the description in human prayer and in "sacred texts,"  he/she/it would be the worst depiction of a human tyrant. Cruel, capricious, playing favorites, narcicisstic, demanding constant pledges of loyalty and love for himself...  what human being would we like or respect who acted like that?  And Fry's mention of those terrible childhood diseases is just the tip of the iceberg. Why is God always given the credit when someone is saved from a disaster, but not the blame when all those innocent people are not saved?

Aneeda 72,



> Eat your veggies or don’t.  No one, on this forum, is going to pick up a  green bean and started forcing it into your mouth.  We might talk about  green beans, we might love green beans, we might grow green beans, we  might sell green beans.  But, if someone doesn’t like green beans, we  might suggest that someone leave the green bean discussion to those that  do like green beans; and want to discuss how many varieties of green  beans there are.



Leave the green bean discussion to those who like green beans, eh?  How about people knocking on your door giving you the "good news" about green beans?  What about the incessant drumbeat from many of the faithful green bean lovers, to have everybody else come around to their opinion of this vegetable, and smugly insisting that theirs is the only choice of vegetable that is valid?

Those who keep rattling on about how wonderful green beans are must be prepared to hear the opinions of those who differ.


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## Warrigal (Apr 24, 2019)

Aleeda, I have a few thoughts but no answers to your question.

When I contemplate the variety and complexities of life on this planet I surmise that the creative force responsible must love diversity. I don't wonder that different people and different cultures respond to the idea of a spiritual dimension in different ways. The common theme IMO is a search for meaning and we find meaning when something within us responds with faith to some thing outside of ourselves. 

I'm not expressing myself very clearly. I am not a theologian but I think I am talking about the spirit of God being within us and outside us. The spirit outside is responded to by the spirit inside. Whatever happens, I don't think many of us respond intellectually. We respond to a  call, a note as it were that we hear in our heart. It is a resonance that is different and unique to each of us.

Does this help? I'm sorry that I don't have better words.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

I’d like to clarify that I am NOT here seeking ‘THE’ TRUTH since and I don’t believe there is only ONE TRUTH. That would make us all clones and we aren’t.  I’m here more out of curiosity. I already know MY own truth and feel everyone has their own truth. What I was missing was that I wasn’t in touch with with that inner truth and wasn’t putting my faith of what I knew and understood into practice. Lately I’ve had an inner tugging which I’ve ignored in favour of entertaining myself. 
Someone here that knows me better than I realized told me to go with what I know and for me , that’s an inner journey. 

The conversation on this discussion board is an interesting read though. I appreciate all the diverse opinions. That’s what makes life interesting.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

I’d like to learn about others peoples truth without losing my own.


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## MannyGT (Apr 24, 2019)

Lara said:


> Personally, I believe in God, the creator of all things. If by some bizarre chance I'm wrong then I've lost nothing. In fact I've gained because at least it made me a happier person on many levels. On the flip side, if a non-believer is wrong then they lose everything. They lose any future beyond this world and apart from God. I would never ever ever want to chance that.
> 
> It's not out of fear that I believe though. I believe because of the joy and peace God has given me. And because of the things God has taken me though. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for my faith in God.



Freedom means living our lives as we please, so long as it does not infringe upon the beliefs of others. Because believing, for some bizarre reason, that you could
be wrong; indicates your strong belief in a God. People are just as happy as all others, when they strongly believe in themselves for whatever reason(s). 

You say it's not out of fear that you believe, but if a non-believer (in religion) happened to be wrong then in your opinion they would lose everything; and of course you would 
never ever ever want to chance that. Okay, but that is still a form of fear in which all of us deal with in different ways


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## Nihil (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> So my question, for everyone would be, is there some genetic, spiritual, unknown pull that draws us to certain deities, religions, and the earth itself in terms of our belief systems?



Our evolutionary path has favored brains over extras like fur and claws. When mortality salience kicked in for humanity, we had more questions than answers. We needed a primate smart enough to answer the questions we were smart enough to ask. We eventually answer our own questions. However, knowing that our death is coming up shortly, we'd like life to work sooner rather than later.


Our earliest religion was Animism. We saw intelligent life hiding in everything. Perhaps we had a hunch that since everything is decaying, everything produces energy. Also, other animals have the ability to communicate and discuss the process of being alive. They naturally share this with humans they find receptive. 


We like to listen to what we want to hear instead of each other. Media figured this out a while back and probably hooked someone into that religion. We have an insecurity being so aware, caring, and vulnerable. We have to put on fur and claws. We are aware of the petty social chain developed by powerful con artists, yet we succumb to the Stockholm syndrome, because we need the company. Who else would take a broken primate?


Humanity is both compassionate and cold. We've developed the compassion that other mammals feel. We've even learned how to celebrate warmth and keep the light on. However, we also have the ability to diminish that feeling. That is the devil. It is what we do to ourselves in the midst of honest insanity to separate us from each other. We have the ability to con ourselves into becoming con artists. Society even encourages it.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

Manny, I agree with your post as far as everyone's freedom of choice. Yes, God created us all with a choice, otherwise we'd have all been robots. You'll notice, upfront, I clarified my own belief by saying, "I personally believe". I didn't ask anyone else to believe that way.

Regarding fear, I have no fear because I'm comfortable with my choice of eternal life. There is another type of fear mentioned in the Bible and that is a fear that is much like a child has for their father as far as obedience and respect goes.


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## Knight (Apr 24, 2019)

Religion like politics is a touchy topic. 


To question Adam & Eve as the beginning of mankind, a popular story leaves out how the variety of cultures happened. Or how prehistoric creatures existed then didn't. Were Adam & Eve the basis for all mankind. If so then what explains this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan.


Not questioning the story of Noah and the fury of a benevolent God always interested me. Killing all of mankind & leaving one family alive to repopulate the earth doesn't make sense to me. If God was all knowing then surely birth defects by inbreeding would not be something an all knowing God would do. 


The time line of the beginning has the explanation of one day in God's time could be millions of years. The earth & universe over 3 1/2 billion years and God still exists. How? 


Those examples are only a few of what I question.


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## Trade (Apr 24, 2019)

God is a white Caucasian male. Six feet four inches tall and weighing in at a lean muscular 190 lbs. He has semi long white hair and a long white flowing beard. He always dresses in a long white robe with leather sandals. If God were to play Jesus Christ in Tennis God would win in straights sets, 6-2, 6-0, 6-1. 

  Jesus Christ is also a white Caucasian male who stands six feet tall and weighs in at a lean muscular 170 lbs. He has dark shoulder length hair and is clean shaven. He dresses in a white linen loincloth and leather sandals.  If Jesus Christ were to play Roger Federer in Tennis Jesus would win 6-0, 6-2, 6-1. 

  If God were to play Roger Federer in Tennis God would prevail 6-0, 6-0, 6-0.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> Our evolutionary path has favored brains over extras like fur and claws. When mortality salience kicked in for humanity, we had more questions than answers. We needed a primate smart enough to answer the questions we were smart enough to ask. We eventually answer our own questions. However, knowing that our death is coming up shortly, we'd like life to work sooner rather than later.
> 
> 
> Our earliest religion was Animism. We saw intelligent life hiding in everything. Perhaps we had a hunch that since everything is decaying, everything produces energy. Also, other animals have the ability to communicate and discuss the process of being alive. They naturally share this with humans they find receptive.
> ...


This is truly a brilliant post. Very interesting , informative and well written. 
Why humanity needed religion to begin with I find fascinating. Where did it start? Why did it start? How did it branch off and why?

The other day my husband was talking about religion he studied as well as history . On Easter Sunday as we ate our Chinese food and Dairy Queen ice cream cake he explained about the history and evolution of religion in factual context that made perfect sense and was totally interesting. He says society wouldn’t be the way it is without religion and there are even private groups such as the Masonaries who will accept any religion  except the Catholics. They have their own group but I forget what it’s called. 

For me I think I find the historical facts about religion far more interesting than discussing whether or not there is a God however religion is about discussing God and the way God is discussed clashes so much with common knowledge about our world and evolution that I can’t rationalize it or make sense of it. Many organized religions have the same types of hypocritical inconsistencies. 

Thats not meant to dissuade anyone whatsoever from the conversation. I very much enjoy people sharing their beliefs and how they came to believe them as well as the posters who don’t believe and why they don’t. 
It makes interesting reading.


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## Nihil (Apr 24, 2019)

Keesha said:


> For or me I think I find the historical facts about religion far more interesting



The power struggles are mind blowing.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> The power struggles are mind blowing.


I know. It’s speaks volumes about mankind which I find fascinating. :yes:


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## chic (Apr 24, 2019)

In college I wrote a thesis Man's Concept of Divinity as Represented in Art. I had to. It was part of the course and I followed it from prehistoric man to Christianity. Neanderthals drew pictures on the walls of caves depicting things like shooting stars, something that could have been angels, etc. As man became more sophisticated, so did his concept of divinity. Basically, people find power and the inexplicable impressive. And their art would revolve around these things until Christianity when the collective conscious shifted to a more humane interpretation. Every culture views what is God differently, and is, I believe, a reflection of what attributes they value most.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

Sunny,

Any forum about any topic is not in the “real world”.  No one from the forum is going to come to your house, knock on your door, and shove a green bean or anything else down your throat or anyone’s throat.  It’s like the option to turn off the TV or the option to not answer your door.  Or the option to answer your door and shut it.

It amazes me that people respond to this thread and then state they are not interested in the thread.  It’s like someone who hates green beans, buys green beans, cooks green beans; and then packs them up and returns them to the store.  Because they want the store, and the world, to know that they hate green beans.  Lol.  Why waste the time?

I am fine, as I have said repeatedly, with any thing any one wants to say.  Sigh.  Your take on god, IMO, spot on for the god of the Old Testament.  As for why isn’t God blamed for the bad in the world?  Satan is blamed.  Fallen angels are blamed.  Evil is blamed.   Mother Nature is blamed.  I think, the saving god, the good god, is perceived as JC.

After all, he died for us.  It’s polite to thank him.

To change the subject.  As far as the flood, Noah, different races, and all that, I did say the thread was about the gods. If you accept the story of Adam and Eve, and read it closely, which I haven’t done in a while, another race of humans outside the Garden is mentioned.  Yup, another race of man.  Someone more interested in the Bible might comment on this.

Could we actually have several genetic variations of human beings created by several different gods, who throughout the ages, grew more similar?  Until there are now few differences?  People with Down’s syndrome (and I have a son with Down’s syndrome) are genetically different.  Food for thought.

Keesha,

I have no clue what you mean by you know your truth, or how you didn’t want your truth to be changed by someone.  I also don’t understand how these statements relate to this thread.  You can PM me and explain if you want. I am a tad slow, lol.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

Warrigal,

I always have felt a connection to the earth.  I never liked to play in dirt or be dirty.  I always wanted to plant things and raise things.  So, yes, I felt calling.  I just don’t know why.  The calling I felt to join the army was understood. I can trace our families’ service to our country back to the revolutionary war.   Maybe we were all just farmers/soldiers, lol.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I’d like to clarify that I am NOT here seeking ‘THE’ TRUTH since and I don’t believe there is only ONE TRUTH. That would make us all clones and we aren’t.  I’m here more out of curiosity. I already know MY own truth and feel everyone has their own truth. What I was missing was that I wasn’t in touch with with that inner truth and wasn’t putting my faith of what I knew and understood into practice. Lately I’ve had an inner tugging which I’ve ignored in favour of entertaining myself.
> Someone here that knows me better than I realized told me to go with what I know and for me , that’s an inner journey.
> 
> The conversation on this discussion board is an interesting read though. I appreciate all the diverse opinions. That’s what makes life interesting.





Aneeda72 said:


> Keesha,
> 
> I have no clue what you mean by you know your truth, or how you didn’t want your truth to be changed by someone.  I also don’t understand how these statements relate to this thread.  You can PM me and explain if you want. I am a tad slow, lol.



Hi Aneeda,
That isn’t actually what I said. Nowhere did I state that I didn’t want my truth to be changed by anyone. 
The reason why I stated that I already know my own truth is because a poster mentioned that we are all here in search of ‘the truth’ like there was only one. That’s all. I have a way of turning a simple sentence into a complicated paragraph. :laugh:
No worries. I’m slow too.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

chic said:


> In college I wrote a thesis Man's Concept of Divinity as Represented in Art. I had to. It was part of the course and I followed it from prehistoric man to Christianity. Neanderthals drew pictures on the walls of caves depicting things like shooting stars, something that could have been angels, etc. As man became more sophisticated, so did his concept of divinity. Basically, people find power and the inexplicable impressive. And their art would revolve around these things until Christianity when the collective conscious shifted to a more humane interpretation. Every culture views what is God differently, and is, I believe, a reflection of what attributes they value most.


My education also included some of this but unfortunately I forget much of it. Oddly enough studying religion and history I avoided until much later. I wish I had studied these two subjects more. Every culture does view God differently which is most interesting. Clearly your study was Art.


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## Sunny (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda, the history of mankind is jam-packed with people who not only knock on doors selling their religion, but who have slaughtered, tortured, and imprisoned people in the millions who did not accept their opinion that
green beans are the best vegetable. Many pretended to like green beans, just in order to survive.  (I never said the people on this forum are doing the proselytizing. But good heavens, are you that unaware of the amount of green bean shoving that has gone on in the two millenia since JC?)  So, if people have been behaving badly in such numbers, because they believe their religion calls upon them to do so (and this happens in the name of many religions, BTW), and other people on a forum bring up the subject of green beans, they have to expect some kind of answers, both from those who agree with them and those who don't.

OK, I personally have had enough of green beans. To answer your change of subject to Adam and Eve, I don't know what you mean by "if you accept the story of Adam and Eve."  What does accept mean?  I accept the fact that someone wrote a fascinating myth, symbolically explaining why there is good and evil in the world. But if it means accept as literal truth, come on, now!

Although you may have a point about another race, or another group of humans outside the Garden.  When Cain killed his brother Abel (supposedly wiping out 25%  of the earth's population, which was 4), God punished him by telling him that from then on, his crops would fail. Cain protested that now he would have to become a wanderer, and whoever found him would kill him.  (Whoever?)  So God put a mark on Cain to protect him from harm. And Cain ended up in the land of Nod, where he married and begat sons, who also found wives who mysteriously turned up, and the multiplying began. Whole groups of people suddenly appeared.

Sorry, but the Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman on earth.  So, the only conclusion I can come to is that this book needed a good editor.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

Yes, sunny, you make my point.  There was another race, of people, outside the garden.  Lots of people accept the Bible as it is.  What I was/am saying is read this section closer.  Whatever deity anyone attributes to the making of Adam and Eve should realize that Adam and Eve were not alone in the world.  They were just alone in the Garden.

Where did the others come from?  Who made them?  And, as sunny stated, Cain married and begat children, human children.  The Bible is the story of JC.  It concentrates on his life and his message.  A lot of people take the Bible as literal truth.  I do not.  I repeatedly refer to the books in the Bible as stories.  The stories, of these other people, are missing.

I read it as the Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman on the earth made by this god.  There have been lots of gods over the history of humankind and I, suspect, lots of other types of humans.  But, I don’t know.  Can anyone explain the other people?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

Keesha, 

And I have a way of not understanding.  Lol.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

Knight said:


> ...Adam & Eve as the beginning of mankind, a popular story leaves out how the variety of cultures happened...
> ...Killing all of mankind & leaving one family alive to repopulate the earth doesn't make sense to me.


[SUB]Believers acknowledge that God is the almighty, all powerful, creator of heaven and earth so anything is possible with God at any time in history and He can make alterations to his original creation without compromising the base. The Bible doesn't give the origins of the different races or skin color from one couple. But there's only one race and that's the Human Race.

God confused languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) causing humanity to segregate linguistically. It's possible God made genetic changes so humanity could adapt and survive in their different environments thus creating racial differences depending on where they settled. 

But, like I said, the Bible doesn't say there was a link between the confusion of language and racial diversity. It makes sense though that specific groups split due to same language so that the gene pool then shrank and closer inbreeding occurred causing certain features to change. These changes were all in their genetic code already. As the gene pool got smaller over generations then one language family all had similar features.[/SUB]

It's also possible that Adam & Eve had the genes to produce various skin colors, just like mixed race colors produce children of various colors. Obviously God wanted humanity to be diverse. So, we are all the same race, the human race, created by God, for the same purpose...to believe in him, love him, trust him, and obey him and to love one another.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Another consideration is that the bible was written some 2,000 years ago when little  was known about evolution or the beginning of humanity.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

I am not so sure.  He gave us free will, so the obey thing is iffy.  Plus please clarify-are you talking about the god of the Old Testament or JC?  Either way, we have free will.  Any god throughout time wanted people to obey and believe.  When they stop, well, it seems that god ceases to be a god.

Trust is the key, IMO.  Trust that the deity you believe in is the One that will see you through this life and the next.  It has worked so far for me.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:
			
		

> He gave us free will, so the obey thing is iffy


As you know, free will has limitations such as thou shalt not kill.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

But we do kill.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Isn’t free will the very reason humanity does less than humane things like killing?
Even bad choices is still our choice of practising free will.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

I must be particularly tired today, my brain function is less.

Thou shall not kill.  One of the Ten Commandments, written according to the story by the god on the mountain.  I believe this is the Old Testament god.  I don’t know why this is a subject for this thread.  But here’s my issue, it’s vague.  Thou shall not kill-what?  Other people?  Animals?  Plants?  I don’t know, he didn’t say.  Some killings are humane-says the person who doesn’t want to linger in a vegetative state.

Another command went something like thou shall have no other gods before me.   Seems like an acknowledgement that there were other gods and he wanted to be the main god of the time.  We pretty much have free will due the laws of god and man.  We choose what we will do with that free will.

As to why humanity acts less than human, the influence of evil in the world.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:
			
		

> I don’t know why this is a subject for this thread. But here’s my issue, it’s vague. Thou shall not kill-what?





			
				Keesha said:
			
		

> Isn’t free will the very reason humanity does less than humane things like killing?
> Even bad choices is still our choice of practising free will.


Free will to make good vs evil choices...and that's called sin which is the very reason why humanity needs a Savior. And needing to be saved from sin was Christ's very purpose. His death and resurrection was taking our punishment so that we can also have life after death. And that's what the belief in Christianity is about in a nutshell.

Why is this the subject of this thread? Because the thread title asks "Who is God the father". Christ is the son of God. God is the Father.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

But then you have to define sin.  To define sin, you have to judge.  It is clear, in scripture, “judge not, less you be judged.”  This scripture stuck to me more than any other from my childhood readings.  It caused me problems.  I didn’t want to be judged by anyone.  When someone would tell me how nice I looked today, I wondered, how did I look yesterday?

Lol, IMO we don’t need to be saved from sin. If we ask forgiveness, it is given.  We need to be saved from judgement.  I find it impossible not to judge, although I try hard not to; so I end up in an endless cycle of judgement and forgiveness.  One of the many reasons I am not active in my church of choice.  It just gets to be overwhelming.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:
			
		

> To define sin, you have to judge. It is clear, in scripture, “judge not, less you be judged.” This scripture stuck to me more than any other from my childhood readings. It caused me problems. I didn’t want to be judged by anyone. When someone would tell me how nice I looked today, I wondered, how did I look yesterday?
> 
> Lol, IMO we don’t need to be saved from sin. If we ask forgiveness, it is given. We need to be saved from judgement. I find it impossible not to judge, although I try hard not to; so I end up in an endless cycle of judgement and forgiveness. One of the many reasons I am not active in my church of choice. It just gets to be overwhelming.


The scripture, "judge not lest you be judged" is talking about judging whether someone is a true believer or not. Only God knows who is truly a believer and who is not. However, God does say, "By their fruits you will know them". The word "fruits" refers to the results of your belief...the things you do to please God.

"we don't need to be saved from sin" is, yes, your opinion. But it's not God's opinion. He forgives believers when they ask for forgiveness and repent only when they believe in the suffering his son Jesus Christ did to take the place of our punishment for our sins.


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## chic (Apr 24, 2019)

This thread seems to be subverted from what/who is God to analysis of the Bible which not everyone accepts as factual.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

chic said:
			
		

> his thread seems to be subverted from what/who is God to analysis of the Bible which not everyone accepts as factual.


The thread is titled, "Who is God The Father?" Then it lists choices for you.The only God the Father I know is the Father of the "Son of God" who is Jesus Christ in the Bible. If you have a different God the Father to discuss then we are all ears. I've just been answering members questions as best as I know how. Also, no one has to accept everything anyone believes is "factual". No?


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

It may have been I who took the thread off course :wiggle:


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2019)

I simply accept that Jesus Christ is God, Lord Almighty.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Perhaps I’m daft here but I was under the impression that Jesus was the ‘son’ of God.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

AZJim said:
			
		

> I simply accept that Jesus christ is God, Lord almighty.





			
				Keesha said:
			
		

> Perhaps I’m daft here but I was under the impression that Jesus was the ‘son’ of God.


You're definitely not daft lol. The "Holy Trinity" is a concept that is hard to understand. It's hard for many to get their head wrapped around it. 

It's God in three forms...each form serving a different purpose but is all God. 
Three in One. Like an egg (yolk, white, shell =1 egg/each with a separate purpose)

1. God the Father - Creator of the Universe

2. God the Son - Jesus Christ (the Messiah and Savior of man's sin)

3. God the Holy Spirit - our Helper


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Lara said:


> You're definitely not daft lol. The "Holy Trinity" is a concept that is hard to understand. It's hard for many to get their head wrapped around it.
> 
> It's God in three forms...each form serving a different purpose but is all God.
> Three in One. Like an egg (yolk, white, shell =1 egg/each with a separate purpose)
> ...


Thank you. :sunshine: 
A three in one :laugh:


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

I believe I stated that I believe the Bible contains stories not carved in stone fact.  Many people believe the Bible word for word, many don’t.  Of course, many people who are not Christians are not even aware of the Bible.  They have a different god.  Having said that, chic, I note your concern.  But I view it differently.

In order to know who someone is, anyone including various gods, you know them by their words and deeds.  Even if those words are written by a historian.  Writers of the Bible, a book, were historians.  The Bible can be considered many things including a historical novel-full of rich and wonderful stories.  I want to better understand aspects of those stories, as do others.

Our discussion doesn’t even come close to an analysis of the Bible as a factual “holy book”, IMO.  I appreciate Lara’s clarification more than she knows.  Plus, it makes sense.  Again, I read the Bible as a child, lol, a southern Baptist child.  As a child, I believed it.  As a child, it kept me alive. I am no longer a child.  As to the rest, Lara and I have our own personal beliefs.  I respect what she says.  

The Romans crucified lots of people.  Therefore, IMO, the crucifixion cannot be the suffering.  It wasn’t special.  It didn’t separate JC from the masses.  JC had to die to ascend, to become a god.  Was the dying about him or us?  I am not sure.  Then he had to return.

To me, the return is the sacrifice.  To me, the return was for us.  Should there be a heaven, should I get into heaven, it would be a sacrifice to leave.  Would I leave?  Yes, but I wouldn’t be happy to do so.  But if my child required it of me, I would leave willingly, as would many.  But, I wouldn’t be happy.

Still I appreciate everyone’s opinions.  Feel free, chic and everyone, to add your opinions.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 24, 2019)

I might be daft for starting this post, lol.


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## Lara (Apr 24, 2019)

It's a good thread you've posted Aneeda because there are lots of thought-provoking diverse questions and everyone is being respectful. It's deep which is a diversion from the lighter threads...a nice balance for our forum. And thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I've appreciated your's as well.

Regarding the way Jesus suffered and died just exactly like the criminals on either side of Him suffered and died, is because Jesus had to take on the identity of humanity in order to suffer humanity's punishment for their sins. What set Him apart from the criminals is that He died, was buried, and then rose again on the 3rd day. Alive. He then ascended to heaven because his purpose was done here on earth. The many prophesies of the Messiah coming (from the Old Testament) had all been fulfilled flawlessly...a real miracle. His life on earth was the beginning of the New Testament.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

That’s what I said to her also. 
The thread offers thought provoking topics that get people thinking and talking. The responses with interestingly diverse and people were respectfully civil. 

You can’t really expect better.
Its s great thread.


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## Warrigal (Apr 24, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> I might be daft for starting this post, lol.



Not at all. You have raised some very interesting and important ideas.
I don't have answers, just my own thoughts, some picked up from more learned sources and some from my own life's experiences.

I am particularly intrigued your thoughts on resurrection. It displays an unusual level of empathy.



> To me, the return is the sacrifice.  To me, the return was for us.  Should there be a heaven, should I get into heaven, it would be a sacrifice to leave.  Would I leave?  Yes, but I wouldn’t be happy to do so.  But if my child required it of me, I would leave willingly, as would many.  But, I wouldn’t be happy.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Lara said:


> You're definitely not daft lol. The "Holy Trinity" is a concept that is hard to understand. It's hard for many to get their head wrapped around it.
> 
> It's God in three forms...each form serving a different purpose but is all God.
> Three in One. Like an egg (yolk, white, shell =1 egg/each with a separate purpose)
> ...


And would this be what is considered the father , the son and the Holy Ghost cause I hear that a lot?


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2019)

Another thing that puzzles me is that if life is eternal that would make our universe infinite. Infinite meaning there is no beginning and no end. Doesn’t this leave the Big Bang Theory as the beginning not fit into that externity thing. 

The oposing viewpoint would be if our universe is infinite then that means infinite possibilities. Not accepting that there is a beginning in an infinite world isn’t accepting infinite possibilities so once again they cancell each other out. 
Of course I complicate things is an understatement. :laugh:


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## Warrigal (Apr 24, 2019)

I wouldn't worry about any of that Keesha. 
If your goal is to find some guidance on how to live a good life, then you need to be looking elsewhere.

I quite enjoy thinking about various models of the universe, or multiverse, and the possibilities and implications of more dimensions that mathematics suggests are part of the space time continuum but I find such intellectual pursuits useless on the level of interpersonal relationships and obligations.

Some time ago I decided to concentrate on the answer to the question asked of Jesus by a young man. The question was "Who is my neighbour", and Jesus responded by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan. The meaning and relevance we extract from such an answer will be different according to what concept of God each of us has, including non acceptance of God. 

If we believe that God is a creator god and that we are all children of God, then by extension every human being is not only our neighbour. He or she is also brother or sister. Digesting that idea takes some time and even more time to absorb it into our moral framework. It certainly makes a mockery of the concept of race. That is where I stand at the moment. I wasn't always here but I am growing wiser the longer I concentrate on this one lesson.

Of course, other people can come to the same conclusion from totally different spiritual or philosophical pathways, but that is my journey.

Digressing a bit - I sometimes wonder whether God has properties like the wormhole entities in Deep Space 9. They were not bound by the constraints of time and space. They were non linear, non corporeal beings who could reach across time and space to interact with humanity. Science Fiction, of course, but an interesting concept. Perhaps that is what life after death is like - non corporeal and non linear with respect to time. I think I would like that but I don't spend much time with such thoughts. My neighbours need me.


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## Keesha (Apr 25, 2019)

It’s very late here for me so I’m only running on a few cylinders but I would like to comment in more detail to this thread and respond to more posts later.  

There is more that I do connect with than I don’t. I definitely believe we have guidance from a higher power that’s in us and everything else in our world and universe but I do believe our universe is infinite so has no beginning or ending. 

Another belief I have is that we get reincarnated and I know that doesn’t fit in with Christianity. I’ve had experiences that point in that direction. 

Like chic I see divinity in Nature, do believe in something greater than ourselves but can’t make heads or tails from studying the bible and I’ve tried many times. 

Warrigal. I really like how you state that this is your journey. For myself , (your personal ) journey and (your personal) truth are synonymous. 
Chat more later. 
Need sleep bad.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 25, 2019)

Something we have to bear in mind, is that a lot of what we are taught as children comes from the established church. The church leaders decided what we should believe in, so much of it is selected.  There are other books beside the Bible, which include teaching which is not included in the New Testament. It was kept as simple as possible so that common, uneducated folk would accept it. Jesus spent a lot of time in Egypt and Persia, learning a lot of mystical stuff which is not included in Christianity.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 25, 2019)

Thanks Keesha and Lara.

Rosemarie, I agree.  As far as I know, the Catholic Church still does not encourage its members to read the Bible.  But the southern Baptist sect I grew up in did.  It was mandatory.  There were tests.  You were put downstairs in a small basement room, alone, and tested on your knowledge of last weeks lessons.  They took God seriously.

The revivals my grandmother took me to were joyous occasions.   Those people, known as Bible thumpers, were filled with the spirit of their God.  During the services, they held their well read bibles in one hand and repeatedly emphasized the preachers words by hitting their bibles with the fist of the other hand.  There were come to Jesus moments, healings, and repenting.

The variety of ways to worship the god of your choice is amazing.


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## Sunny (Apr 25, 2019)

> Digressing a bit - I sometimes wonder whether God has properties like  the wormhole entities in Deep Space 9. They were not bound by the  constraints of time and space. They were non linear, non corporeal  beings who could reach across time and space to interact with humanity.  Science Fiction, of course, but an interesting concept. Perhaps that is  what life after death is like - nor corporeal and non linear with  respect to time.



I don't think you're digressing at all with that thought, Warrigal; it sums things up beautifully.  If there is such an entity as "God," he/she/it would be better defined as an entity beyond time and space, rather than as a "heavenly father," which just turns him/her/it into a powerful human being. Using the human pronoun "He" humanizes God. Using "It" does not. But for those stuck in the terminology of the Bible, this sounds shocking.

For those familiar with Beethoven's magnificent 9th Symphony, where the words of Schiller's Ode to Joy are sung, there is one line that always resonated with me:  Uber Sternen muss Er Wohnen. (Above the stars he must live.)  Above the stars?!  What does that mean?  The more you think about it, the more profound it gets.


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## Keesha (Apr 25, 2019)

Me neither. I thought defining God as beyond time and space was brilliantly stated. 
For myself, God is beyond time & space. I even go as far as to say God created everything included the good, the bad and the ugly. I view humanity as the ones who created evil. We designated a label for things we perceived as bad because we didn’t like the way they felt or didn’t understand them so perceived them to be evil and still do to this day. The yin and the yang. In other religions they are to be accepted the same. 

I cant wrap my head around the belief that God believes homosexuals are the making of the devil. In fact I don’t believe anybody is born evil. It is just mans way of disregarding things it doesn’t accept and labelling them. If this GOD is so magnificent then this can’t possibly be true.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

If you want to live a good life, don't involve yourself with bad influences. We're highly trainable animals. We can train ourselves to be destructive or productive. We can give in to base desires and make them all we are, or we can see what this Homo sapiens can do. Our minds have moved past the basics. We're not stuck with bathroom humor. We can determine what is keeping us from living in a utopia and attempt to correct the problems at their roots. Our species loves detective work, so I'm sure we can figure out how to make Earth a paradise, if we really want to.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 25, 2019)

Warrigal brings up so many interesting points.  I always felt that since we are imbued with the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) or what belief system equivalent someone has, the raising up at the end of the world was of our non corporeal spirit.  I mean there must be people who believe our actual bodies will be restored, but I am not one of them.

Also, the near death experiences that people report about mansions in heaven and streets paved in gold?  I can’t believe this is true.  What need of those mundane objects unless it’s actually hell?  Stuck in a never ending cycle of materialistic chaos would truly be hell.

As for us all being related in some ways, surely we are.  But I always get confused between skin color differences and races.  Nationalities, I get nationalities.  What does color have to do with race?  And, then, the races are mixed throughout the history of the world.  I venture not many people are of pure blood.  Perhaps some American Indians.

The romans recognized this as they allowed their men to mix with (ok, rape mostly) the populations in order to mix the races and cement their hold on certain areas.  (I think I have this right.).   The gods of those times also got mixed, spawning new gods.  So, if God the father, created it all then he allowed these lesser gods.

Which is why one of the ten commands says something to the effect that you shall have no other gods before me.  They did and that caused issues for Moses.  Now follow my logic and hopefully Lara will explain the biblical version.

The Jewish God of the Old Testament wanted to be the main God.  It is this Jewish God who is the father of JC.  Then the Jewish people rejected JC; except for the ones that left the Jewish faith.  Those Jews believed in JC as the son of God, and the Christian religion was born.  The trinity comes into being.

God the father, JC the son, and the Holy Spirit formerly known as the Holy Ghost.  So here’s my question, when we pray to God the father, as Christians, aren’t we praying to the Jewish God of the Old Testament?  Since we know JC didn’t start creation (he wasn’t born till later), and some want to attribute everything to one god, the father of JC;  aren’t all us Christians both Jewish and Christian?

Food for thought.  Anyone?


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## Keesha (Apr 25, 2019)

Here’s some food for thought. Since I know little to nothing about religion I figured I’d do some research on this; not about religion but the fundamental belief in God. 


According to research people in western society in general are becoming less religious and more spiritual. In a recent pole 89% of the population admitted to believing in God yet the theological complexity is vastly diverse. 


The opinions about what God is are all so different yet acceptable. Some believe in a personal intervening God that is defined by religion. Others believe in a deist God, a cosmic watchmaker who wound up the universe and stepped back. Still, others accept God as a cosmic force, as nature personified. 


The fact that 89% of the population in the Western Hemisphere believes in some type of God is inspiring. If all of them are using the term God then it’s misleading to group them all together like they believe the same thing. 


Even amongst organized religion there’s a vast spectrum of opinions about how to deal with our wants and desires, from liberal to ultra conservative and everything in between. Some religious dominations support marriage equality others won’t permit women to be clergy. 


This same division can be seen in regards to abortion, stem cell research, blood transfusions, environmental protection, war verses pacifism, economic inequality etc., 
Since religious views aren’t based of evidence but on conflicting claims of unprovable revelation then confusion and debate is to be expected however it appears that with every faith, even those rigid, dogmatic ones , there’s even a vast diversity of clashing beliefs. 


These debates and dissension within conventional religions show that traditional models are faith are diminishing. The time when a religious authority could issue an order and expect it to be obeyed are quickly passing. People are becoming more educated and aware of the ways in which religion has manipulated mankind using shame and guilt so perhaps branched off and created their own beliefs 


From this research it appears that more and more people are making up their own minds apart from religious tradition and authority.
People are becoming less afraid to ask questions and come up with their own conclusions even if these conflict with the dogmatic groups. 


According to this survey it concludes that a wider diversity of faiths helps ‘everybody’ appreciate the importance of secularism and church state separation. This will ensure that nobody has the power to impose ‘their’ doctrine on others. 


This information is inspiring. It means that the majority of people  still believe. They are just customizing their beliefs to suite them. Curbing wants and desires seems to be key  as well as  living a simple lifestyle, all of which I do. No alcohol, no cigarettes, no wild parties but I’m still a rebel at heart which I don’t hide but probably should. Lol 


Sorry Aneeda, I don’t have an answer to your question.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Also, the near death experiences that people report about mansions in heaven and streets paved in gold?  I can’t believe this is true.  What need of those mundane objects unless it’s actually hell?  Stuck in a never ending cycle of materialistic chaos would truly be hell.



If a brain thinks it's dying, it floods itself with DMT. We're looking out for our own well being even in death.

We also get some of that homemade DMT while we're asleep. We've divided our thoughts into a subconscious and a conscious to protect ourselves from the knowledge of our mortality and other less than savory truths. Dreams are an attempt to bridge that gap and make us one with ourselves.


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## Falcon (Apr 25, 2019)

A member  asked  me WHY  I  became  an  atheist.  My answer  is  due to almost ALL  of this  threads  posts.

Simply stated:  WAY  TOO  many  "Ifs"  Not  enough  TRUE  ANSWERS.

MAN  made  god;  NOT  the  other way around.  Who,  or  WHAT  is  "God"  Has anybody  ever  seen  him/her/it ?

Is  God a  human being or  only exists  in people's  imagination?   Help !


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## Keesha (Apr 25, 2019)

That was me that asked. That’s fair enough. 
Im participating in this thread because I was interested in what others had to say about the subject but also because I told Aneeda I would support her if she started a thread about God and why we believe. 

Since I can’t seem to participate in the same language I researched an article that I thought explained some logical reasons why. Some is from the article with my own words added. 

If this thread is upsetting a lot of people then I will end my participation since that wasn’t my intention. I merely found the topic interesting and thought I was being respectful in my responses.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 25, 2019)

It’s a good thing to believe in a god who matches your core beliefs rather than have a ready made one shoved down your face by others.  Whose to say this isn’t how it is supposed to be?  Humans have invented their gods from the beginning of time and then we conformed.

In today’s world we can still have our basic faith in whatever faith we chose, and still question.  We can, lol, due to free will, have the freedom to not conform to a book written long ago by a people who wrote on walls, sheepskins, and parchments with birds feathers.  It’s an amazing time to research the facts about the gods, Christianity, and the rest.

No harm, insult, or offense is meant or implied in this thread.

Nihil,

But some people just see the light.  I believe in the light thing, not the other.  When I die I am heading for the light, not streets of gold.  I feel death is like conscious sedation.  One minute you are there, the next you are not.  It simply lacks the wake up portion.  If there is an afterlife, you will know.  If there is not an afterlife, you won’t know.  Either way, it works for me.

Falcon,

Yup, lots of questions, and we are free to ask, research, and question.  As children, of the 1950’s, we had no choice.  Now we do.  And you are free not to believe.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 25, 2019)

Keesha,

I don’t think you have a problem with participation in this thread.  You are respectful.  If someone wants to get upset, they can get upset with me.  I’ll stand in front of you when the rotten tomatoes start to fly.  But, I don’t think Falcon is upset.  He’s just saying why he’s atheist, and we aren’t trying to change his mind on that.

Also, Falcon, while I have not seen god, or any of the gods, my dead grandmother did appear to me when I was in a horrendous amount of pain last year.  The doctors said I had an hallucination.  They are probably right.  Grandma was no god, didn’t even come close.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> He’s just saying why he’s atheist, and we aren’t trying to change his mind on that.



In the past, Christians have gotten violently angry with my logic. I'm glad you're OK with me trying to strip away your god concept.

EDIT: Sorry, my mind clearly saw "aren't we". Anyway, I'm glad I could poke the discussion.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 25, 2019)

I think people who get crazed when their beliefs are questioned are insecure about those beliefs.  It always surprises me when people get angry.  Your points and concerns are just as valid as mine; and just as welcome.  My beliefs, as well, sometimes depart from scripture.  Strip away, lol, because we really don’t know who god is.


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## Seeker (Apr 25, 2019)

> Since we know JC didn’t start creation (he wasn’t born till later)
> 
> 
> Food for thought. Anyone?



Here's my food for thought....Just throwing it out there.....




John 1:1  King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.






John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


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## RadishRose (Apr 25, 2019)

Nihil said:


> In the past, Christians have gotten violently angry with my logic. I'm glad you're OK with me trying to strip away your god concept.



Nihil, I wasn't aware you were "*trying to stri**p away* god concepts", I just thought you had interesting ideas.

We are open for discussion, *not for or efforts to change anyone *or to proselytize.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

RadishRose said:


> Nihil, I wasn't aware you were "*trying to stri**p away* god concepts", I just thought you had interesting ideas.
> 
> We are open for discussion, *not for or efforts to change anyone *or to proselytize.



I was calling out Aneeda72. I'm always trying to strip away the god concept. It's natural for me. I haven't been all out in this thread, because feelers.


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## RadishRose (Apr 25, 2019)

Aneeda,  





> So here’s my question, when we pray to God the father, as Christians,  aren’t we praying to the Jewish God of the Old Testament?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you speaking of the Judeo-Christian traditions? That's a vast study, but here's just a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian



> Since we know  JC didn’t start creation


Some people believe the Father and the Son *are the same*, as well as the Spirit. So, we don't really "know".

This theory was common, thousands of years ago.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

Nihil said:


> I was calling out Aneeda72. I'm always trying to strip away the god concept. It's natural for me. I haven't been all out in this thread, because feelers.



Oops. My mind clearly saw "aren't we" and not "we aren't".


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## Lara (Apr 25, 2019)

Falcon said:


> WHY  I  became  an  atheist....WAY  TOO  many  "Ifs"  Not  enough  TRUE  ANSWERS...Who,  or  WHAT  is  "God"  Has anybody  ever  seen  him/her/it ?...Is  God a  human being or  only exists  in people's  imagination?   Help !


If we knew all the answers then we wouldn't need "beliefs" and "faith"...nor a brain even...just a file cabinet on our shoulders to store all the knowledge that everyone already knows and agrees on. There would be no pondering, no philosophy,* no Studies*, no investigations, no interesting forums, etc etc. We'd be robots. How boring for us. How boring for our Creator.

2Timothy 2:13 God said "*Study* to show yourself approved unto God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 

I mean, obviously there is something greater than us going on. Our Creator wanted a humanity that He could fellowship with that could think, could love, could feel. Why isn't He here with us then you ask? He IS here for those who are open to Him.


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## Warrigal (Apr 25, 2019)

Nihil said:


> If you want to live a good life, don't involve yourself with bad influences. We're highly trainable animals. We can train ourselves to be destructive or productive. We can give in to base desires and make them all we are, or we can see what this Homo sapiens can do. Our minds have moved past the basics. We're not stuck with bathroom humor. We can determine what is keeping us from living in a utopia and attempt to correct the problems at their roots. Our species loves detective work, so I'm sure we can figure out how to make Earth a paradise, if we really want to.



Paradise on earth is a laudable goal and it begins with sharing. Christians talk about building the kingdom of Heaven on earth and look to the teachings of Jesus for the plans. Rather than some place far away with jewel encrusted buildings and pavements, the Kingdom is a place of peace and true justice. This earth has resources enough for everyone to live a decent life but we squander resources on conflict and extravagance when we could be caring for the least among us in every corner. I'm babbling a bit but you get the drift. Until we give up war mongering we will never achieve paradise on earth.

We can however build little pockets of peace and justice by our actions in our homes and in our neighbourhood.


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## Nihil (Apr 25, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Paradise on earth is a laudable goal and it begins with sharing. Christians talk about building the kingdom of Heaven on earth and look to the teachings of Jesus for the plans. Rather than some place far away with jewel encrusted buildings and pavements, the Kingdom is a place of peace and true justice. This earth has resources enough for everyone to live a decent life but we squander resources on conflict and extravagance when we could be caring for the least among us in every corner. I'm babbling a bit but you get the drift. Until we give up war mongering we will never achieve paradise on earth.



Amen to that.



Warrigal said:


> We can however build little pockets of peace and justice by our actions in our homes and in our neighbourhood.



I'm too much of a dropout to be taken seriously. Everything I know is wrong. I don't mesh with society anymore. I need to be put on an island of new age hippies.


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## Warrigal (Apr 25, 2019)

Falcon said:


> A member  asked  me WHY  I  became  an  atheist.  My answer  is  due to almost ALL  of this  threads  posts.
> 
> Simply stated:  WAY  TOO  many  "Ifs"  Not  enough  TRUE  ANSWERS.
> 
> ...



 I think I can help by sharing a bit of my story. 

I had a minimalist Christian education as a child - Sunday school and school scripture lessons. Ours was not a church going family but nominally Christian. I was baptised Methodist and attended Baptist Sunday school. Scripture lessons were various because I went wherever my girlfriends went.

In my late teens, fascinated by science (it was the late 50s, an amazing time of discovery and progress) I decided that God was superfluous and became an atheist. Not an aggressive one but one convinced that mankind had outgrown the need for deities. 

I married and had children and life went on just fine until my father died suddenly one night. As a child I had always been shielded from deaths in the family. Never went to a funeral or stood at someone's death bed. I was absolutely shattered and held my grief inside like a true Briton. Publicly I was OK but inside part of me was broken. Then my only sister delivered her first baby but it had died in the womb. Again, I discovered that I was not the strong person I imagined myself to be. I had no words of comfort to offer my sister. I just stood silently in her hospital room, conscious that she had lost her baby and I still had my two healthy children. Knowing the science of it all didn't seem to help either of us.

Then her second baby was born extremely early (28 weeks) and it was touch and go whether she would survive. A priest came to baptise her in the hospital and a nurse took the holy water and poured it into the humidicrib apparatus. Children at a local catholic school prayed for her, and although I though this to be mere superstition I was pleased about it because I could not pray. All I could do was cross all of my fingers while urging my niece to hang in there. She did and is now an amazing woman in her fifties.

Still I held to my atheistic non beliefs but funny things do happen. A co-incidence perhaps or perhaps not, I ended up getting a job at the same school where prayers were said for my niece. I was not catholic, had never met  a nun in my life and  was a product of the secular state  system and did not believe in any god or gods. Yet they employed me to teach science and maths and after the first year they promoted me to head of the mathematics department. In my second year I was promoted to the position of vice principal.

Throughout this time I watched the religious ways of the school community - the prayers, the liturgies, the way the school was organised to meet the needs of the students and staff rather than the system in  the state schools where efficiency was more important than people. I admired their faith and ways of doing things but I still thought that they were mistaken, somewhat misguided and I was sure that I was the sole keeper of truth in the school. I did nothing to disillusion them because they seemed happy. How's that for arrogance?

Then the inexplicable happened. I was sent on a week long pastoral care course. It was a secular course but during one of  the exercises called a guided reflection a voice broke through my intellectual defences in a very personal way. It was disturbing, to say the least. I came from within me but it was not of me. I could not rationalise it away. Then, soon after, I was woken from sleep by hearing my name called in my dream. It sounded like my mother's voice calling me to wake as she did when I was a child. Something inside me recognised the voice of God and I responded with an audible "Yes, Lord".

Immediately I was filled with an euphoric happiness that lasted quite some months. I began to pray, always silently and always expressing my gratitude and happiness. I had a lot bottled up that needed to come out. I surrendered my life's ambitions, my frustrations, my anger and my guilts and in so doing I did become a new person. 

I am still a person of scientific thinking. I am still a flawed human being. I still doubt many conventional doctrines but I am no longer  an atheist.  

 I am an elder of my church community. I teach Sunday School and serve on the committee that manages a long day care centre associated with our church. I chose not to join the catholic church but I remain very appreciative of my time working beside the nuns. That time lasted 25 years and taught me so much about unconditional love, inclusivity and social justice.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 26, 2019)

Warrigal,

Thank you so much for sharing this experience.  We are all flawed human beings.  It’s so easy to forget we are a community of people trying to make it through life together.  I have heard of people having very similar experiences as this but in a different context, so to me, your experience is very believable.

My experience was visiting my great grandmother’s grave which is in a different state.  Once I found it, and was beside her grave, I was given the greatest feeling of peace, and knowledge that things would be alright now that we had connected.  It was as if she was waiting for me and I was finally home.  Hard to explain.

I have read that other people, researching their genealogy, have had experiences such as these as well.  As Lara said, you have to be open to the experience, and accept it for what it is.

Don’t worry, Nihil, still not trying to convert you, lol.  But your island ideal, hmm, I might be safer with you on that island since you want to “call me out”.  As for new age hippies, lol, they would probably all be spiritualists,  not your cup of tea at all.


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## Nihil (Apr 26, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Don’t worry, Nihil, still not trying to convert you, lol.  But your island ideal, hmm, I might be safer with you on that island since you want to “call me out”.  As for new age hippies, lol, they would probably all be spiritualists,  not your cup of tea at all.



I don't mind spiritual hippies. A lot of what they practice is closer to what's scientifically best for us. Their practices have emerged from experimentation. That's an interesting quality of spirituality. I'm listening to some fantastic ambient I made with Paulstretch and Oxygene4 while enjoying the vibes surrounding me. That's not new age hippie at all.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 26, 2019)

With this discussion of spirituality, it seems that some have overlooked the significance of the real world. We are composed of matter. We exist in a universe, governed  by scientific laws. Our very being is ordered by DNA. Our lives are programmed by it. What we call "life"  is nothing more than our bodies functioning according to biological principles, honed over eons of evolution. The stages of our lives are set in hormones. It is no coincidence that most of us seek out mates at generally the same time in life. Most of us have an innate human sense of justice, honor, and  the need for human interaction. We live by natural laws. For instance, nations with the highest median age are the most stable, nations with the lowest are the most volatile, plagued with  armed conflict. We do have an intellect , which is capable of civilization or Auschwitz. Our feelings are the reaction to sensory input. Human emotions are a complex mix of bodily needs, feelings, hormones, DNA and human interaction. As a species, we have thrived for tens of thousands of years. We can't divorce ourselves from the reality of our nature. Death is an aspect of that reality. Spirituality, if it exists, is a human tool to achieve immortality. The reality of our being colors all aspects of our life. Our concepts of gods, the after life, etc. are tethered to a hard reality


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## Rosemarie (Apr 26, 2019)

It's very selfish of those who try to prove that God exists only in Man's imagination. Don't these smug people realise that mankind invented 'God' because they need to believe that there is a mastermind behind our existence? The thought that life is totally random, our planet is floating helplessly in space..that there is no masterplan, no-one in control...is too much for most people to cope with. So they have invented someone to make them feel secure...big daddy God is up there, looking after us.


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## Lara (Apr 27, 2019)

Rosemarie said:


> It's very selfish of those who try to prove that God exists only in Man's imagination. Don't these smug people realise that mankind invented 'God'...


"Selfish"? "Smug"? I see you are new here. Welcome to our friendly senior forum. Just a friendly tip...notice that most of us here don't insult others for their beliefs. You can post your opinion without insults and it will have better results.


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## Pepper (Apr 27, 2019)

Lara said:


> "Selfish"? "Smug"? I see you are new here. Welcome to our friendly senior forum. Just a friendly tip...notice that most of us here don't insult others for their beliefs. You can post your opinion without insults and it will have better results.



Thank you Lara.  Personally, I was tongue-tied so I appreciate you speaking for me.


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## Sunny (Apr 27, 2019)

I've reread Rosemarie's note several times over, and am having trouble understanding her point.  First, she says it's selfish to try to prove that God exists only in Man's imagination. A couple of sentences later, she says people have invented God to make them feel secure.

Can you clarify, Rosemarie?


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## Capt Lightning (Apr 27, 2019)

Other that a little confusion, I don't take any issue with Rosemarie's post and I certainly don't consider there is anything intentionally insulting in it.   With 279 posts, she is hardly a 'newbie' and obviously feels passionately about the subject.

I agree with the gist of her post.  I believe 'God' is simply an attempt by man to explain a whole lot of unknowns.


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## Sunny (Apr 27, 2019)

I'm in the middle of watching an interesting movie, streaming on Netflix.  It's called An Interview With God, and that's exactly what it is.  A writer who does a religious column for a science magazine gets an assignment to interview God. He thinks it's some sort of stunt but goes along with it.

They meet in a local park and sit at a chess table for their conversation. God is played by the excellent David Straithern, looking like a very ordinary 60-year-old accountant or something. He is kind and gentle, and explains that he is God, with a perfectly straight face.  The reporter "humors" him with standard questions, but is beginning to wonder what's going on. His assignment is to do 3 interviews, each 30 minutes long. I've watched the first 30 minutes. So far, it's fascinating. I hope the second 2/3 will be just as good.


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## Keesha (Apr 27, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> As far a belief in gods is concerned, do you really believe that Osiris lost his penis? There are texts all over Egypt, which tell of the divine tale. Are we supposed to take it as fact?  Or is it merely an immortality ideation? It is strange that most of the world's gods and religions are initially proposed by a human.  Is this man's desire to live past death, or his fear of it. Yes, Osiris's lost penis is figurative of most gods. It is a magical tale of overcoming death. It is amazing that most gods have also a magical birth. Thousands of years ago, magical births were not so infrequent. Virgin births or god inseminated births were common for kings/royalty. Most rulers had some type of magical birth- Caesar , Alexander, kings, prophets and  emperors. There is evidence that humans use gods as a source of great magic to change their life's situation. Most areas had a local god, which had great magic, who protected its worshipers. In Greece, gods could be bribed. Again, most gods had very human traits, such as envy, hatred, etc. So, did Osiris lose his penis. I guess that depends if you believe he had one.


I said I wouldn’t post in here again but I need to add this. 

You stated in another post that people were being disrespectful of your posts and you are right. I was. 
When you posted this I considered it as a derailment and a way to try and intimidate the women here talking about religion so my response was completely inappropriate especially considering the context of the subject matter. 

Also it’s not anything I would ever say in person so I apologize to you and the others by posting the cartoon as I did.  
It was very rude and inconsiderate of me. 
No response is required.


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## Lara (Apr 27, 2019)

Random thoughts: 

There is both good vs evil in our world. There is both God and Satan. Some forget about the Power of Evil on earth completely and blame bad things on God. 

Sometimes man's sin has natural consequences such as drunk driving accidents or lung cancer from smoking, then other times bad things happen to good people, even the youngest for many reasons (at least 100 of those reasons are listed in the NT)...not for punishment.  

Satan is working overtime. He's responsible for the evil in the world. Also when people die, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. They are laid to rest in his loving arms and given new life.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 27, 2019)

Well, I had a very rough doctor’s appointment Friday, my stress level is super high, I’m physically ill and on an antibiotic.  I can not throw myself a pity party cause I’m sick.  My comprehension is in the toilet but huh?  Sunny, I don’t quite get what Rosemarie meant either.  But calling people you have not met in person and do not know smug, is silly.

Since I started this thread, I will apologize to anyone who was offended by this comment, but defend Rosemarie’s right to make the comment.  Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

Keesha, I didn’t look to remind myself what cartoon you are talking about, but please post on the thread if you want.

Lara, I am confused by your post as well.  Are you saying smoking is a sin?  If so, please let me know the scripture that’s supports that viewpoint.  I believe the connection between smoking and cancer began to be establish in 1962 in England.  Maybe you are not aware that our troops were given free cigarettes by our military at least through the Vietnam conflict.

This is where many of our young men got hooked, including my husband.  When I married him, 47 years ago, I insisted he stop drinking and smoking.  The drinking stopped, but I suspected he kept smoking although he denied it.  He did eventually stop, but it was too late.  He was diagnosed with lung cancer in January and is being followed by a cancer doctor as it is a complicated situation.  His cancer could be from Agent Orange exposure.

As for drinking, which can result in drunk driving, are you saying drinking is a sin?  Cause it’s actually an illness.  I just have to disagree with you on these issues.  I was raised to believe dancing was a sin; and if you wore make-up you were a whore,lol, a sin as well.  Neither of these behaviors are sinful.

I believe in Satan.  I believe he is working overtime.  We all have sinned, we all continue to make mistakes, we all are flawed human beings.  And, yes, death is not a bad thing, IMO.  As I have said before, I am DNR/DNI.  But linking the word sin to an illness is not something I would agree with ever.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 27, 2019)

I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my last post, it wasn't my intention. I was actually expecting people to point out the obvious and tell me that I am one of those smug, selfish people by declaring that God was invented by the needy. Funnily enough, no-one did.


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## Warrigal (Apr 28, 2019)

:lol: when we yank a chain, we don't always know exactly what is going to drop on our head.
Don't worry about it Rosemarie. Smugness isn't a mortal sin or the worst forum gaffe we have seen.


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## Lara (Apr 28, 2019)

Aneeda, thank you for the opportunity to clarify my previous post. Drinking in moderation and drunk driving are two very different things. I used the words "drunk driving" in my post. I said "bad things sometimes happen to good people because of natural consequences" and gave drunk driving and smoking enough to cause lung cancer as an example. In fact too much of anything usually has bad consequences. I will add that drinking too much can cause liver damage leading to cancer and colon cancer.

I see how you misunderstood because I did link sin to overindulgence and thus suffering at our own hands. 
The Bible answers "Is getting drunk a sin": https://www.gotquestions.org/is-getting-drunk-a-sin.html


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## Rosemarie (Apr 28, 2019)

I'm searching for the truth, the same as everyone else is. These days, we have all this technology and yet we are still trying to figure out whether there is a God. One thing is for sure, 'God' was a mathematician. All of nature is based on maths.
However, to return to the original question....it does seem as though the Gods of Olympus were based on real people. If you read all the various myths and legends from around the world, it seems the Earth was visited by beings from other worlds, many eons ago. They had a falling out, which resulted in a war between them. There is evidence of nuclear explosions and stories of fantastic weapons being used. This could explain Thor and his hammer, Zeus and his thunderbolts etc. 
The big question is...is there a spiritual-type God masterminding everything, or are we on our own? It could be said that God embodies all that is good in humans, and Satan embodies all that is bad...just as Father Christmas represents all that benevolence that we feel at Christmastime.


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## Keesha (Apr 28, 2019)

Rosemarie said:


> These days, we have all this technology


Yes but technology has surpassed our basic moral compass


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 28, 2019)

Wow, Lara, extremely interesting read in many ways, thanks a lot!

I was thinking as I read it then why the heck do most of the Christian Religions use wine as a representation of the blood of Christ?  Then I read the question section where it asked about JC turning the water into wine at the wedding feast as in did he turn it into wine or grape juice.  It was wine.

As usual, the writers of the Bible seem to disagree-which is what drives people crazy, lol.  But it is the degree of drinking that is the key.  I have never drank.  Lol, some people have actually considered me smug when I say that, but I simply cannot stand the taste.  Like coffee and bananas, it’s awful.  The priest even asked me once why I didn’t take the wine.

I didn’t see anything on smoking so I assume that’s not a sin?  Lots of things cause liver damage besides drinking.  It’s important to note that, to me, as I have a damaged liver and as I stated other things cause lung cancer.  I’ve had a rare blood pre-cancer thing since I was 19.  I think it’s related to agent orange as well, but can’t prove it.

What also caught my attention was the bit about hating your mother, father, children etc.  Keesha did you catch that?  I think hate might be too hard a word but rather a strong dislike.  I’ve always felt you could “honor your father and mother” while disliking them a lot.  The bit about needing your own cross to bear in order to follow JC was surprising and enlightening.

Lara does this link to JC saying the “my god why have thou forsaken me” bit?  Seems like that section is saying you must have suffered to understand my suffering.  What human being has not suffered?  At least we all qualify in that area.

Rosemarie I think some of the gods were invented by “the needy”, in terms of the corrupt needy wanting to grab money from the actual needy.  The early Catholic Church had a lot of corruption in it, as I understand.  In fact, it still does.  I believe the church still has World War II belongings given to it for safe keeping which it refuses to return to heirs.

Wherever men are involved their will be corruption.  I haven’t slept tonight.  Perhaps I should give myself permission to dislike my daughter a great deal for moving away in one more week.  Sigh.  Now I’m being silly.


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## Keesha (Apr 28, 2019)

No Aneeda, Hate IS definitely too strong a word. I’ve never hated my parents. ( never really hated anyone. I don’t do hate )
There have been times when I’ve strongly disliked them but I actually love them very much. It’s a frustrating love only because they don’t know how to love back. They don’t know what love is , which I find the saddest thing about them.
 Only when they pass will they know how deeply I’ve loved them.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 28, 2019)

Hmm, I don’t know if I love my mother or not. I don’t like her, and while I never hated her, or anyone else I suspect it’s more because I’m a very laid back person.  I don’t get riled up very often toward people.  I do get very hurt.  There have been times when I’ve really disliked my mother, how could I not?  Currently, I’ve no strong feeling towards her at all.

Still, it’s a really interesting piece of scripture.


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## Warrigal (Apr 28, 2019)

Honour thy father and they mother is an interesting commandment when read in context. Honouring the father is not unusual but mothers in ancient times did not automatically receive respect. Men had all of the power and all of the respect because they had the power of life and death over everyone in the household, including their wives and children. It paid to be on their good side. Mothers not so much..


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## Sunny (Apr 28, 2019)

Well, I finished watching the movie "An Interview With God" yesterday. For all those posting in this thread, I recommend it. It's basically a religious film, produced by a Christian film company, which normally would be enough to discourage me from watching it, but I did out of curiosity, and found it very well done. (And incredibly well acted!) The movie could have lots of different meanings, including a modern retelling of the story of Jesus Christ, or a retelling of God's answer to Job in the Bible. It certainly inspires a lot of thought, even for a nonbeliever. 

If you get Netflix, take a look at this film. I think most people would enjoy it.


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## Knight (Apr 28, 2019)

Lara said:


> Random thoughts:
> 
> There is both good vs evil in our world. There is both God and Satan. Some forget about the Power of Evil on earth completely and blame bad things on God.
> 
> ...


I've never understood that concept. That God & Satan both have power to control what mankind does or doesn't do. How is that control decided? I understand free will is supposed to be the gift but why would a benevolent merciful God want or allow Satan to be the victor of that free will?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 28, 2019)

Because of free will,  neither chooses to control humankind.  Rather humankind chooses to be good, evil, or a balance of both.   It also depends on which god you are believing in and referring too.  The God of the Old Testament was not merciful and I am not sure JC is merciful.  I think JC is forgiving when we ask for mercy, but we must fulfill our duty to him, or so it seems.

It seems to be getting more complicated rather than less, lol.  As for Satan, he is not a victor if someone commits an evil act.  Neither is god the loser.  It simply is what is it is, IMO.


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## Lara (Apr 28, 2019)

Knight said:


> I've never understood that concept. That God & Satan both have power to control what mankind does or doesn't do. How is that control decided? I understand free will is supposed to be the gift but why would a benevolent merciful God want or allow Satan to be the victor of that free will?


I hear you Knight. Well, here's my best shot according to scripture...God is more powerful than Satan but sometimes God doesn't intervene to stop his evil for many many reasons according to God's plan...his perfect plan even. 

I mentioned before about the 100 reason's mentioned in the Bible. One is to teach us to be more empathetic toward others because it's all about love and reaching out to help others. We can't be empathetic if we've never experienced pain. Another is to teach us to trust and lean on God and seek him first in all things. 

Another is to teach us patience, tolerance, self-control.  Another is to humble us because some of us need to be "broken" (because we can be so self-centered, strong-willed, defiant, egotistical)  before we can rise up to be our best selves and productive in society and do God's will. There's more in the New Testament. 

It's not about punishment. It's about love and polishing our rough edges as we grow closer to perfection like Jesus is. Of course we'll never reach perfection but we'll grow closer and closer.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 28, 2019)

I never understood the concept of Satan. Is man responsible for his  own sins? If man is indeed responsible for what he does, then what role does Satan play? If man is not totally responsible for his actions, what is sin anyway?


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## Lara (Apr 28, 2019)

Man is absolutely responsible for his sins. He either pays the punishment for them in Satan's hell or confesses them to God, repents, and is forgiven because Jesus paid the punishment. Satan's job is to tempt humanity to disobey God as was the case in the Garden of Eden where sin began. Satan wants nothing more than to win us over to Evil and turn our backs on God.


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## Capt Lightning (Apr 28, 2019)

There is just no way you can argue against that degree of irrationality.  There is no god and no satan. When we banish these fictional characters from our lives and realise that we as humans must work together to solve our problems, then life will be a lot better.


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## Sunny (Apr 28, 2019)

Amen to that, Capt Lightning!


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## Falcon (Apr 28, 2019)

Ditto.      :applause2:


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 28, 2019)

Banish religion?

Ban the bible, what else should we ban in a free society?


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## Lara (Apr 28, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> ...we as humans must work together to solve our problems, then life will be a lot better.


You just quoted scripture...
3 John 1:8 "We ought therefore show hospitality...so that we may work together for the truth 
Ecclesiastes 4:29-12 "Two are better off than one, because if they work together they can work more effectively"
1Peter 4:8-10 "Each of you...must use the gift that God has given to you to serve others.

I'm not sure if your aware of the many Christians working tirelessly right now as we speak "to solve our problems". For example Samaritan's Purse is scattered across the globe in oppressed countries building hospitals and schools, teaching them farming skills while bringing them seeds, livestock, and equipment. They are bringing in clear fresh well water systems so that the people don't have to carry buckets from polluted rivers up mountainous paths. Teaching hygiene. 

They are also providing blankets, food, medical assistance, prenatal care, eyeglasses, teachers, school materials, vaccines, diapers and other baby supplies. They are there in natural disasters delivering supplies, repairing damage, cleaning up debris, and helping in any way they can. They have a program called "Heal our Patriots"

Franklin Graham's "Samaritan's Purse" does all of the above. They're also equipped with cargo planes and semi tractor trailers for transporting supplies. Go to their website and click on "What We Do" and Videos at the top of the page.
Water Link: https://www.samaritanspurse.org/what-we-do/water/
Main Page: https://www.samaritanspurse.org/what-we-do/franklin-graham/#

Volunteers pay all their own expenses to get there and back.


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## Warrigal (Apr 28, 2019)

Knight said:


> I've never understood that concept. That God & Satan both have power to control what mankind does or doesn't do. How is that control decided? I understand free will is supposed to be the gift but why would a benevolent merciful God want or allow Satan to be the victor of that free will?



A question that plagued theologians for centuries. If God is all powerful and all good but does nothing to eliminate evil that exists in the world how can God be all powerful? Or all good? 

I once enrolled in one semester at a theological college and we looked at this dilemma. The biblical explanation is found in the second chapter of Genesis where mankind brings evil into the world by disobeying the Creator. I have thought this creation myth to have a serious flaw. I mean, really? Two ingenues are created and left alone with temptation? No further guidance? What was to be expected?

I must not be alone because there are many different approaches to explaining the dilemma. It is a theological area known as theodicy. Every attempt at rationalising the dilemma made my head spin. They all needed the Occam's razor treatment. 

While I was agonising over this subject a thought sprang into my head as if an answer to my situation. It was a very simple one and passed Occam's test. This is the wrong question to spend so much time on. The real question is, "Who is my Neighbour?"

Of course I recognised that question. It is the question asked of Jesus by a some teachers of the law, and Jesus answers them by telling the parable of the good Samaritan.

I no longer worry about inconsistencies in different parts of the bible, or about why the world isn't a perfect paradise, or why humans can be both kind and cruel. I just try to understand my neighbour and to respond where I can to his/her suffering. I have come to understand that my neighbour doesn't have to be near by. Someone living in poverty on the other side of the world can be my neighbour which is why I have chosen to donate monthly to Medicins sans Frontiers. It is why I help out at a playgroup two mornings a week because parents and grandparents need some place to come with little children where they can find friendship and mutual support. The last thing they need is a treatise on the struggle of good and evil for the soul of mankind. Sometimes they need a shoulder to cry on but mostly they need laughter and encouragement. My contribution? I buy and prepare a lovely morning tea for the children and adults because they are my neighbours.


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## Olivia (Apr 28, 2019)

The answer is that woman was created out one of the man's ribs. So what could you expect? And then after the man egged on the woman to eat of the apple from the forbidden tree (which he knew what that was all about--don't kid yourself--blamed it on the snake) he pretended to know that each of them was naked (he knew that already--he just wanted the woman to think it was her idea) And that's how it all began--the Tree of Knowledge was all about sex--the original sin. So next time you eat an apple--think on that.

I mean seriously, if you're going to take the story of the creation literally, why not my take on it?  So, where is you missing rib, sir? There are many ways to take the Bible in other ways. Just google it.  Although frankly, I prefer my sexy version.  :badgirl: How else to explain the population since then if God didn't want it that way? "Go out and be fruitful and multiply".  That's how we have the Duggars.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 29, 2019)

The be fruitful and multiply scripture-was that Old Testament or new?  Does it go along with the bit about not spilling ones seed on the ground?  (Obviously, applies to men.).  I think these are both Old Testament as is the garden of eden.  IMO, it’s important to clarify if posting individuals are speaking of the Old Testament or the new.

Otherwise, we are posting about two different types of bible stories-old testament and new.  Two different gods-the Old Testament God of the Jewish faith and JC, the son and God of the Christian faith.  Also two different religions-the Christian faith and the Jewish faith.  These things are not interchangeable.  It’s confusing enough without trying to mix these together.

So for the non-believers who talk about getting along without a god or a Satan, just skating along doing their own thing.  Believing in just supporting their neighbors to improve the conditions of the world; what are the organizations throughout the world that you contribute to that are similar to the religious organizations who do “good works”.

If you don’t contribute to an organization, and I don’t, what do you do improve the life of a neighbor or a complete stranger.  I think I mentioned how we bought groceries for a younger mother and her child with a sign saying they need help.  We have also contributed to the support of a family for a few months when a parent was unable to work.  Provided money for a bus ticket for someone trying to get back home.  Nothing big, but it made a difference to that individual.

I knew of a person, who when her neighbor’s water was turned off, ran a hose to their house to provide water for that family for more than two years.  Another neighbor who was a bus mechanic and helped neighbors fix their cars.  Shoveling someone’s walk.  Easing the burden of others lives for no reason except god’s grace.  I could go on and on.

How does a non-believer decide to help his fellow man without the teachings of a religion to guide him to the right decisions?  Is it just from childhood lessons, friendship, the examples of others? I am really curious.


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## rkunsaw (Apr 29, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> There is just no way you can argue against that degree of irrationality.  There is no god and no satan. When we banish these fictional characters from our lives and realise that we as humans must work together to solve our problems, then life will be a lot better.


I totally agree


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## Lara (Apr 29, 2019)

The thread title is "Who is God the father". I respectfully have a question. One member repeatedly posts in the forum that "There is no God" and members post their agreement with him with nothing to add. No surprise there because there are many who don't believe in a God. 

That's fine with me but I'm curious, why are you "wasting" your time in this thread? Apparently you're reading the thread (not a waste). Why are you interested?  Christians often see this as the Holy Spirit convicting the unbelievers to stay and read it. That's a valid reason to stay for sure! So I'm glad you're still here. I hope my difference of opinion isn't irritating you though. Is it? That's not my intention at all.

*Aneeda*, I always come from the New Testament because a lot changed after Jesus came. He fulfilled all of the MANY Old Testament prophesies of the coming of the Messiah (Savior of our sins). An awesome historical fact!


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## Sunny (Apr 29, 2019)

Just plain old curiosity, Lara, to see how other people think. There is no "Holy Spirit" guiding what we read on the Internet. If there were, we would solve all computer glitches by praying.

And speaking for myself, I don't find you irritating, though your point of view is somewhat fascinating.

Aneeda, why in the world do you think that all the worthy causes, charitable organizations, etc. are functions of religion?  Some of them are; many are not. The desire to help the less fortunate is a function of morality, kindness, common decency... none of which require the fairy tales of ancient religions to be acted upon. And there are humanistic religions, whose main focus is on being decent to other people and to the
planet, without requiring people to twist their minds around a lot of Biblical tales.

In other words, belief in the literal truth of the Bible (either testament, Aneeda) has absolutely nothing to do with human kindness. Yes, there are religion-based charitable organizations. And the Spanish Inquisition, puritanism, and all manner of cruelty toward one's fellow man have also been based on literal belief in the Bible.  If you're going to give the Bible credit for all the good deeds in the world, you've got to also give it the blame for all the evil it has inspired.

P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true?  Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis?  It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.


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## Nihil (Apr 29, 2019)

Sunny said:


> P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true?  Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis?  It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.



I've learned from modern clergy that they now take everything in The Bible as allegory except the divinity of Christ. The internet has helped a lot of people see through mystical nonsense and drop superstition. The clergy realize they don't have much credibility left. Of course, this is something they don't advertise. However, I've found them to be honest about this new approach if you confront them.


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## Warrigal (Apr 29, 2019)

Sunny said:


> P.S. I always understood that the Christian belief was in both Testaments. You seem to be trying to eliminate the Old Testament from Christian belief. But is this true?  Do Christians reject the stories of the Old Testament and believe only in Jesus and his apostles? That is what you are saying, but what about all the Christian fundamentalists who are always quoting the Old Testament prophets and believe in the Old Testament story of Genesis?  It seems to me you are picking and choosing, trying to create a starry-eyed version of a Christianity based entirely on one part of the Bible, and giving Christianity the credit for all acts of human decency. That's a very narrow point of view.



Speaking entirely for myself, and not disagreeing with the parts of your post that I have omitted, I would point out that modern bible scholarship is a bit more sophisticated than literal acceptance of every word notwithstanding  the various translations that are in common use. Christians do not reject the Old Testament but it must be read in historical, social and literary context. You need to understand that some parts are myth or legend. Other parts are oral histories that have been written down after many generations of story telling. IMO the book of Job is a theological debate on the subject of human suffering and should not be read as history. The creation myths Gen 1 and 2 are not intended to be scientific texts. They are there to explain the relationship of mankind to the earth, each other and to God. Gen 2 attempts to rationalise the dual nature of humans as well as death, pain and suffering.

I am currently hosting a weekly bible study group led by our minister who is a keen biblical scholar. He is well versed in the historical and social context of the ancient world and he has helped us to see the subtle undercurrents in the words of Jesus. It is possible to read both testaments of the bible and look into the stories with different eyes. A biblical fundamentalist takes the position that every word is literally true ( the inerrant, unalterable word of God) but (so called) progressive Christians read the same book looking for understanding and relevance to modern life without needing to marry together inconsistencies and contradictions. Catholics and Protestants have always had different attitudes to the bible but since Vatican II they are much closer together. However within each church (or churches) there are huge differences in how the texts are regarded.


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## Lara (Apr 29, 2019)

Sunny, you said you were "somewhat fascinated" when I spoke of the Holy Spirit: 

The Holy Spirit's role is the believer's Helper in many ways (I'll get to what he does for unbelievers in a sec), like indwelling believers and protecting their salvation, giving them wisdom, assisting with our prayers when we don't have the right words or there is an unspoken prayer request, and he comforts us and gives us peace and joy with overflowing hope as we navigate this hostile world. 

But the Bible also states this regarding unbelievers: 

"The Holy Spirit also does work among unbelievers. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8, ESV). The Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26), pointing people to the Lord. Currently, the Holy Spirit is also restraining sin and combatting “the secret power of lawlessness” in the world. This action keeps the rise of the Antichrist at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10)."

So yes, the Holy Spirit might be convicting the unbelievers who are "somewhat fascinated" by what believers have posted in this thread but I don't know that for sure...only the Holy Spirit knows that.


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## Knight (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm not a man that has studied the bible I'm recalling popular storys that I heard when I went to sunday school. 


The recent posts by Sunny & Warrigal seem to point to religious leaders looking more closely to the storys in the bible as ways to explain what wasn't know about the origin of mankind. Questioning the storys makes sense to me. Unlike modern day documentation with the ability to provide visual proof of events, relying on what is written is open to be questioned. 


The bible as a referance puts the earth & galaxy at 6000 years, science puts it at 3 &1/2 billion plus. Made in his Image without a visual other than what man has written how is it known the allued to sentient being is male?  Made in his Image Neanderthals & Cro-Magnons are a fact with  Neanderthals pre dating Cro-Magnons. The story that Adam & Eve are the origin doesn't explain the 4 DNA bases & possibly 8 as science uncovers more. Noah and the animals saved yet there are https://themysteriousworld.com/animals-found-only-in-madagascar/. 


Attributing only good to God.
God is recorded in the Bible as having personally killed a large number of people.[note 1] While the majority of the divine assassinations certainly took place during God's time as the notoriously vengeful deity in the Old Testament, a few instances are also recorded in the (just slightly) more peaceful New Testament. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people


If there is a God that killed then why not kill Satan. That should remove the evil that is attributed to Satan. 


Questioning IMO isn't wrong, not questioning is.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 29, 2019)

Sorry, the full title of this thread is:
[h=1]Who is God the Father?  Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the great “I AM”, or the man in the moon[/h]Atheists come under the man in the moon part. If you wanted only theistic responses, this thread probably should not have been in the general "Current News And Hot Topics" section. Maybe in the Spirituality section.? I don't think it's appropriate to have a thread with only one viewpoint, and then to tell others, with differing ideas to get bent." If this offends you, don't read it", type responses that I read. WE are all members of this forum. Again if you post threads, where you only want one side, maybe posting them in the general arena, isn't the best way.


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## Sunny (Apr 29, 2019)

> ]"The Holy  Spirit also does work among unbelievers. Jesus promised that He would  send the Holy Spirit to “convict the world concerning sin and  righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8, ESV). The Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26),  pointing people to the Lord. Currently, the Holy Spirit is also  restraining sin and combatting “the secret power of lawlessness” in the  world. This action keeps the rise of the Antichrist at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10
> 
> So   yes, the Holy Spirit might be convicting the unbelievers who are   "somewhat fascinated" by what believers have posted in this thread but I   don't know that for sure...only the Holy Spirit knows that.




If by "convicting" you mean convincing (I've never heard the word convicting used like that), I could make an equal case for the anti-Holy Spirit convicting all those millions of people who say, "I used to be a Christian but no longer believe any of that nonsense."  I've known a lot more lapsed Catholics than people who were "convicted" by the Holy Spirit while reading online discussions just because they were interested.

My interest is not a theological one, Lara. It's more a human psychology one. We are capable of convincing ourselves of just about anything apparently, if it serves our psychological needs.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 29, 2019)

Everyone, I have talked about the Bible mostly in relationship to bits and pieces of scripture that Lara has quoted and questions of mine she has answered.  I have made it very clear, I thought, that I believe the Bible is a collection of fact based stories-a historical novel.  I do not believe in the Bible word for word.

I have not tried to put my beliefs on anyone else, nor has anyone else done this.  Believe, don’t believe-whatever floats your boat.  Join the discussion or not.  As I understand it, Lara is simply curious as to why people who agree with non-believers don’t state why they don’t believe.  I think Lara is curious as to why if you think the world is flat you would waste time with people who believe who believe the world is round.  There can be no meeting of the minds.

However, we all agree to observe kindergarten rules and be kind, decent people to each other in this discussion.  Both believers and non-believers can believe in being civil.

Sunny, I didn’t say all charitable organizations were religious.  I asked which ones weren’t or at least tried to.  If the desire to help the less fortunate is based on the mortality of the people involved, and the people involved are not religious in any way, then where and how did they learn what was moral and what was not?  Curious, I am.

It it is my understanding that the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible.  The New Testament is Christian.  That is the difference in my understanding and explains the difference between the heavy handed God who killed millions and JC.  You need to address your questions to Lara or Warrigal who are knowledgeable about the Bible.  I am not.

Knight, I did mention there were other races at the time of Adam and Eve, even the Bible makes this clear.  Thus the discussion about the gods and not just one in particular.  Although, most have settled on one in this discussion.

fuzzybear, I think the discussion is in the right place.  Everyone is welcome to disagree and comment.  Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.  Everyone is welcome to agree and comment.  Everyone is welcome to read and not comment.  But it is frustrating when someone agrees with someone else’s opinion instead of voicing their own opinion.

There are many sides discussed in this thread, not just one.  It is very interesting and I, for one, am learning a lot.  As for the discussions about Satan and the Holy Spirit, they are on their own.  God is confusing enough for me.  Lol.


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## Lara (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm learning a lot too Aneeda. And you are correct that I'm just curious. I do not feel anyone should be excluded from the thread because they're atheist. I never said that. I only asked why someone feels compelled to say there is no God in a thread that asks "Who is God". It does't ask "Is There a God". I'm just curious why non-believers don't start their own thread and name it "Is There a God", not "Who is God" since that's what they want to talk about. Or maybe they don't. They surely don't want to add anything about who God is. 

Maybe they like to argue? Seriously. I don't know. But the rest of the posters are not arguing at all. We don't agree on everything but we're all moving in the same direction in finding clarity on the who what when why where of God.

The thread title seems to me to assume there is a God and beckons a discussion on who he is exactly. Like what you think God's Bio is, so to speak. Although his birth and death will be a challenge since he always was and always will be. Infinity. No beginning and no end.

But that's just my opinion. Apparently others think the thread is about who God isn't. 

Also, I don't dismiss the Old Testament. I just enjoy talking about the New Testament because of the messages of new life, forgiveness, grace, hope, eternal life, and how we should live our lives in the present, reaching out, helping one another, letting our light shine, love, peace, patience kindness, self control, gratefulness, letting go of our burdens, and letting God. I like dwelling in the positive. It makes me happy and I believe what Jesus said when he arrived in the New Testament.


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## Nihil (Apr 29, 2019)

God is a tool for fear. Through vague and callous rule books, we are kept confused and paranoid. God prevents us form understanding our species, because the rule books define our species. People use this power for control and manipulation through fear and guilt. The scam of religion is even used for murder. Religion is a useful tool for conquers.


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## Seeker (Apr 29, 2019)

> [FONT=&quot]Also, I don't dismiss the Old Testament. I just enjoy talking about the New Testament because of the messages of new life, forgiveness, grace, hope, eternal life, and how we should live our lives in the present, reaching out, helping one another, letting our light shine, love, peace, patience kindness, self control, gratefulness, letting go of our burdens, and letting God. I like dwelling in the positive. It makes me happy.[/FONT]



Here's my thought on the Old testament...

The Old testament was for those under the law...the new testament is just what it says, a "New" testament. Not just a book of more chapters.

Jesus nailed the law to the cross...so that we can have eternal life.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 29, 2019)

Lara, I also like the Old Testament stories except for the so and so be got so and so, lol.  I think non-believers simply don’t know the difference between the two Testaments, and the two gods, and often speak from a point of no knowledge.  I think if you are going to be a non-believer you should have a basic knowledge of what it is you don’t believe in.

Generalizations are not helpful.  It is true some people just like to argue, but how can you argue from a point of ignorance?  It’s beyond my understanding.  You are right, the discussion does drift around.  It was meant to be a discussion about the gods, and who they are, how they came about.  After all some people worship money, so money is their god.

But all in all, I thank everyone who joins in.  It’s very interesting, and helps me make it through the day.  As my life is very complicated right now and it’s one of those times where there is only one set of footprints in the sand.


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## Lara (Apr 29, 2019)

Seeker said:


> Here's my thought on the Old testament...
> 
> The Old testament was for those under the law...the new testament is just what it says, a "New" testament. Not just a book of more chapters.
> 
> Jesus nailed the law to the cross...so that we can have eternal life.


Exactly Seeker 



			
				Nihil said:
			
		

> God prevents us from understanding


God is not the author of confusion. In fact, there are no contradictions in the Bible as some think. Sometimes what is said is taken out of context making it look like a contradiction. But with that said, it is true that all the answers are not in the Bible. God did that on purpose because he wants us to study his Word, the Bible, to show ourselves approved of God.

*Aneeda, *When you say "2 Gods", I assume you mean God the Father and God the Son. Actually God the Father is just as much a part of the New Testament as the Old Testament. The thing that changed in the New Testament is the coming of Jesus (God in the likeness of Man) to save humanity from their sins.

*Sunny*, When I said "convicted", I did not mean "convincing". The Holy Spirit does not "cause" nor "persuade" anyone to believe. But he does cause a conviction in some unbelievers to seek the truth on their own if he feels it's worth the effort (in my words lol). God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all want the same thing...for man to make his own choice to believe or not to believe.


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## Sunny (Apr 29, 2019)

'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.

Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)

What I like about it is that it's written in modern English without all the thee's, thou's, unto's, etc. It's a lot better and easier to read than the very archiac old version. But it's still just as full of contradictions, nonsense, and whoppers. And some of the stories in the Old Testament are wonderful. My favorite is the book of Joseph, which is a marvelously human story, with no supernatural beings at all.

The thing is, to me it's just a book, full of ancient philosophy.

To get back to your original note, Aneeda, what would you define as a miracle?


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## Seeker (Apr 29, 2019)

> Religion is a useful tool for conquers.




It can be if that is your interpretation of religion…I feel Christianity is more than a religion.


It‘s a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.


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## Lara (Apr 29, 2019)

I agree Seeker.

Sunny, you have an excellent Bible. I stand by my word, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Let's try something. You pick out a contradiction in the New Testament (because I enjoy discussing the NT. I have discussed the OT elsewhere lately and I need a break from it) and I will explain why it's not a contradiction. The OT doesn't have any contradictions either.

But right now I'm going to bed fftobed:  Goodnight. I'll check back when I wake up.


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## Warrigal (Apr 29, 2019)

Sunny said:


> 'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.
> 
> Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)
> 
> ...



No arguments with the main thrust of your arguments Sunny but I've never heard of the Book of Joseph. It that the correct name?


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## Warrigal (Apr 29, 2019)

Sunny said:


> 'No contradictions in the Bible'.... wow. Entire volumes, not to mention the Talmud, have been filled with analyses and discussions of the hundreds of contradictions.
> 
> Aneeda, my Bible is called the Holy Bible, and it's the New International Version. (Lara would say the Holy Spirit made me get it down off the shelf.) It is both the Old and the New Testament. It is not the Jewish or the Christian Bible, it's just the Bible. (Although my understanding is that the Jewish religion generally stops at the end of the book of Malachi, which is the end of the Old Testament. The Christian faiths use both testaments.)
> 
> ...



 No arguments with the main thrust of your arguments Sunny but I've never heard of the Book of Joseph. It that the correct name?
Do you mean the story of Joseph in Genesis?


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

There is much to learn from the story of Joseph but one thing is right on topic for this thread!...Who is God. It gives us a clear example of why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

Joseph’s story presents amazing insight into how God works to overcome evil and bring about His perfect plan. After all of Joseph's ordeals, he was able to see God’s hand at work. As he addressed his brother's attempts to kill him and sell him out of jealousy, Joseph spoke of their sin this way: “Do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. . . . It was not you who sent me here, but God” (Genesis 45:5,8). Later, Joseph again reassured his brothers, offering forgiveness and saying, “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good” (Genesis 50:20). Man’s or satan's most wicked deeds can never change the perfect plan of God.

You can see in this story how many people were taught about forgiveness, about who God is, how he works, and how he used Joseph's trials and tribulations to save lives.


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## JimW (Apr 30, 2019)

My religious philosophy is "to each his own". I was born and raised in an Italian Catholic family. From my experiences Italian Catholicism and Catholicism in general is a fear based practice. Catholicism, like other dieties, teaches it's followers to fear Almighty God and if you don't do as God wants, you will burn in hell for all eternity. Catholicism uses religion as a manipulation tool to "do as I say", but most often "not as I do". I have seen both the good and the bad sides of religion. I have witnessed people do good deeds in the name of God and I have seen people do evil things in the name of God. 

I was an Altar Boy for 3 years. I went to Sunday School as a kid and got my knuckles smacked with rulers by the Nuns, some of the time I deserved it, other times I did not. I made all of my required sacraments. All the while, I never liked it or truly believed in it. For me there were just too many far fetched stories that are the basis for all religion. When I made my Confirmation in the 7th grade, my parents told me that it was up to me from this point forward if I wanted to continue with religion in my life. It took me all of 2 seconds to declare "I'm out"! I simply do not have the want or the faith required to follow down this path. I have never looked back and have never given a second thought as to whether I should go back, it's simply not for me. 

My personal take on religion is that it was invented by man to be used as a manipulation tool on other men and to gain riches. That being said, I don't look down my nose at those who do believe. Religion does a lot of good in this world where there is so much evil, there are certainly much worse things a person could believe in. I have made my personal choice as a non-believer and everyone else is free to make theirs.


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2019)

JimW:  "I have made my personal choice as a non-believer and everyone else is free to make theirs."  If only.  The problem begins when the religious do not agree that everyone else is free to make theirs.  i.e. the push for prayer in public schools and the anti-choice agenda.  I won't bother to go into history where one could be tortured and die for not believing a certain way; that's history.  My beef is with the present.


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## JimW (Apr 30, 2019)

Pepper said:


> JimW:  "I have made my personal choice as a non-believer and everyone else is free to make theirs."  If only.  The problem begins when the religious do not agree that everyone else is free to make theirs.  i.e. the push for prayer in public schools and the anti-choice agenda.  I won't bother to go into history where one could be tortured and die for not believing a certain way; that's history.  My beef is with the present.



My comment was directed towards us as adults in a free country and the choice we have whether to believe in God or not. No one forces an adult in a free country whether or not to believe in God, we are free to make that choice on our own. I believe in the separation of church and state, but I think we're going way off topic with that.


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2019)

Just responding to the quote I highlighted.  Others don't believe in the free choice you adhere to, and certainly children don't have the choice yet, and a lifetime of brainwashing is a big hill to climb.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Who is God...God is the One who created us to have the ability to choose. He, more than anyone else wants their faith to be a personal choice. But He also wants his believers to vocalize and express their faith...even to go out into the world and let their light shine and love everyone with his love. That's when the problems begin :laugh:


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## Sunny (Apr 30, 2019)

You are right, Warrigal, and I apologize for the error.  There is no book of Joseph, but several chapters of Genesis, starting with Chapter 37, tell the story of Joseph and his brothers, his captivity in Egypt, his success there working for the Pharoah, and his eventual forgiveness of the brothers who tried to kill him.  It's a wonderful story, with no good guys and bad guys, just a lovely fable (and who knows, maybe it's true?) about human traits in all their complexity.  

For a fun look at this story, listen to the wonderful rock production of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. It's moving, funny, wonderful entertainment, and sticks pretty closely to the version in the Bible. I think it's written by the same people who wrote Jesus Christ, Superstar. Here's the whole production, starring Donny Osmond and Maria Friedman, unfortunately with ads, but you can click past them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnPClWznEY4


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## JimW (Apr 30, 2019)

Lara said:


> Who is God...God is the One who created us to have the ability to choose. He, more than anyone else wants their faith to be a personal choice. But He also wants his believers to vocalize and express their faith...even to go out into the world and let their light shine and love everyone with his love. That's when the problems begin :laugh:



Hey now, you just keep all those shiny lights and all that love to yourself or we're gonna have problems. j/k  :laugh:


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

:lofl:  Jim


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 30, 2019)

I think I have answered the miracle thing question in this post and others.  Honestly, I think we are surrounded by miracles every day, but we have to open our eyes and see them.


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## Keesha (Apr 30, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> I think I have answered the miracle thing question in this post and others.  Honestly, I think we are surrounded by miracles every day, but we have to open our eyes and see them.



Thats how I feel Aneeda. To me , life itself is a miracle and everything in it.


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## CeeCee (Apr 30, 2019)

Lara, I was hoping you’d answer Knight’s question...that’s where I get hung up.

I can believe in a creator or a force but I also believe in the Big Bang and evolution.


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## Sunny (Apr 30, 2019)

I googled the word "miracle" and several very different definitions popped up:

_noun_
_noun: *miracle**; plural noun: miracles*_
​

_*a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.*_
_*"the miracle of rising from the grave"

synonyms:supernatural phenomenon, mystery, prodigy, sign "his first miracle was to turn water into wine"




*_

_*a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.*_
_*"it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed or injured"
*_


_*an amazing product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something.*_
_*"a machine which was a miracle of design"

synonyms:wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, astonishing feat, amazing achievement "Germany's economic miracle"




*_






So... the word can mean pretty much whatever you want it to mean. The first definition is meaningless to me; the fact that something is not explicable to us at this moment in time does not provide any proof of "a divine agency."
It just means we do not yet have an explanation for it.   Before the time of Columbus, the fact that sailors did not fall off the edge of the flat earth would have been considered a miracle.

The second and third definitions really mean that a miracle is something wonderful and amazing, no problem there.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

CeeCee said:


> Lara, I was hoping you’d answer Knight’s question...that’s where I get hung up.
> 
> I can believe in a creator or a force but I also believe in the Big Bang and evolution.


I'm not sure what question of Knight's you're referring to that I haven't already addressed. Let me know. 

Regarding your other statement, the problem with the Big Bang theory is that creating something out of chaos (who created the chaos? the big bang? the mud puddle? the scientific elements to make it all happen?) makes a lot less sense than God's creation story. There needs to be an intelligent designer far greater than us to come up with the complexities that make up our world and our existence. 

I believe in evolution within species for adaptation to environments but not evolution that creates a whole other species completely...like from chimpanzee to man. I agree the DNA is close but close is not 100%. Believing in God is based on faith. All I've personally read and experienced results in a 100% assurance for me though. And God has given me plenty of experiences. That's just me exercising my God given ability to choose. I'm not debating it or pushing it.

And who created LOVE? Did the Big Bang create love?


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## CeeCee (Apr 30, 2019)

Knight said:


> I'm not a man that has studied the bible I'm recalling popular storys that I heard when I went to sunday school.
> 
> 
> The recent posts by Sunny & Warrigal seem to point to religious leaders looking more closely to the storys in the bible as ways to explain what wasn't know about the origin of mankind. Questioning the storys makes sense to me. Unlike modern day documentation with the ability to provide visual proof of events, relying on what is written is open to be questioned.
> ...



Lara, I was talking about this post....maybe it wasn’t a question but how does the Bible reply to what Knight posted.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Knight asked, "If there is a God that killed then why not kill Satan. That should remove the evil." 
I've answered that somewhere (maybe before Knight's post). 

The more powerful God could certainly stop Satan but God's perfect plan allows Satan's evil temptations, pain, and suffering for two reasons:

1. Temptations: God did not want to create robots but rather Humans and therefore gave us the ability to choose between good & evil, between right & wrong, and to choose to believe in him and his Word (the Bible) or not...despite temptation. 

2. Pain & Suffering: It's all about teaching, polishing our rough edges, and preparing us for eternal life in God's Kingdom. 
God uses suffering to teach us a myriad of things such as empathy (you can't have empathy without ever having experienced pain). He want's  us to love others by using empathy. He wants us to develop patience, kindness, self-control, etc There are 100+ reasons in the Bible why good people suffer....none for punishment.

Knight also mentioned time of Creation. I don't really care how long ago scientists think the earth was created. God had a different reference to "time" but I'll come back and explain. I've got a man here to fix my garage door lol. 

I explained in an earlier post about DNA changes. I'll have to go find it.

Regarding "killing people", I also explained that in an earlier post. That was in the Old Testament before Jesus came in the NT to take the punishment for Man's sins.


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## Keesha (Apr 30, 2019)

JimW said:


> Hey now, you just keep all those shiny lights and all that love to yourself or we're gonna have problems. j/k  :laugh:


She’s a true gem ain’t she. :sunshine:


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## Knight (Apr 30, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Knight, I did mention there were other races at the time of Adam and Eve, even the Bible makes this clear.  Thus the discussion about the gods and not just one in particular.  Although, most have settled on one in this discussion.


I don't have a bible let alone different versions. I had some time this morning so I Googled different races in the bible & found this. 

Bible Verses About Different Races
Bible verses related to Different Races from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order 

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 10:35 - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 - Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.   (Read More...)

Revelation 7:9-10 - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;   (Read More...)

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Different-Races/

I interpret all those to represent what was taking place once history was being recorded. How does describing races after the supposed creation of mankind being Adam & then Eve explain the different DNA? 

I could be wrong but I think Deuteronomy 7:4 pretty along with a lot of other references much sets the tone for fear based belief. 
Deuteronomy 7:4 King James Version (KJV)
 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

I think there could have been an unpaid someone that walked around trying to get people to be at peace with each other. Unfortunately that has changed. Massive money making church organizations fill the need for people calm their fear of not getting into heaven.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Lara said:


> [SUB]Believers acknowledge that God is the almighty, all powerful, creator of heaven and earth so anything is possible with God at any time in history and He can make alterations to his original creation without compromising the base. The Bible doesn't give the origins of the different races or skin color from one couple. [/SUB]*[SUB]But there's only one race and that's the Human Race.
> [/SUB]*[SUB]
> God confused languages at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) causing humanity to segregate linguistically.[/SUB][SUB] [/SUB]*[SUB]It's possible God made genetic changes so humanity could adapt and survive in their different environments thus creating racial differences depending on where they settled.
> [/SUB]*[SUB][/SUB][SUB]
> ...


Regarding how our "different races" and genetic code changed since Adam & Eve from my post #95


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## JimW (Apr 30, 2019)

Keesha said:


> She’s a true gem ain’t she. :sunshine:



Yes, Lara rocks!   :happy:


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## Nihil (Apr 30, 2019)

Knight said:


> fear based belief




The overall lesson of Jesus is, question the status quo, get nailed to a cross


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Thank you Keesha and Jim...I'm sure you meant "rocks" as in rocking chair lol. That's about my speed today :thumbsup:


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## fmdog44 (Apr 30, 2019)

I am always puzzled as to the logic behind referencing the bible as a source of factual information when it is nothing more than pages of gossip rumors and here say.


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> I am always puzzled as to the logic behind referencing the bible as a source of factual information when it is nothing more than pages of gossip rumors and here say.



What people believe to be true is considered fact for them without evidence or based on rumors they wish to believe.  No politics allowed, I know, but you can see examples of this in present day society.


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2019)

Pepper said:


> What people believe to be true is considered fact for them without evidence or based on rumors they wish to believe.  No politics allowed, I know, but you can see examples of this in present day society.



In FACT, Paul said (Heb. 11:1):  Now *faith* is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of *things not seen.

*That may be fine in one circumstance only, but ignorant for everything else.  Society's problems arise in using that standard for everyday logic.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 30, 2019)

Well, sunny, you can deny that miracles exist, according to the first definition, but you can’t prove that they don’t exist.

As for sailors falling off the edge of the earth, they can, after all, fall off the edge of a wave and drown, or break their necks, or disappear into the ocean forever so it might as well be the edge of the earth.  All things are possible .


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## Sunny (Apr 30, 2019)

Aneeda, now really. Falling off the edge of a wave and drowning means the same thing to you as falling off the edge of the earth?! 

And about the fact that somebody can tell a big whopper of a lie, and I can't prove that that lie ISN'T true, what a leap of logic. The burden of proof is always on the person who makes a statement that
something is true... not on all the people listening to that statement and going, "Huh?"  

OK, I believe in the Tooth Fairy. It says she is real in a book somewhere. So now, go ahead and prove that she does not exist.

(Although maybe you believe that she does?) After all, she left a shiny new quarter under your pillow when you were 6.


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## Knight (Apr 30, 2019)

I went to your post #95 & have more questions.




Lara said:


> Believers acknowledge that God is the almighty, all powerful, creator of heaven and earth so anything is possible with God at any time in history and He can make alterations to his original creation without compromising the base. The Bible doesn't give the origins of the different races or skin color from one couple. But there's only one race and that's the Human Race.
> ---------------------------------------------
> One Race? If that is true there is only one race then why is there a distinction between
> Homo sapiens & Homo sapiens sapiens.
> ...




As you can see I'm asking questions trying to understand blind faith & using the bible as the source of faith. The possibility you suggest about Adam & Eve should disappear since the story of Noah and his family of one genetic strain & not being described as diverse and the sole survivors of a flood that wiped out those that angered "GOD". <----------- How is that possible?


I hope your garage door was repaired right and didn't cost a lot.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Knight said:


> As you can see I'm asking questions trying to understand blind faith & using the bible as the source of faith. The possibility you suggest about Adam & Eve should disappear since the story of Noah and his family of one genetic strain & not being described as diverse and the sole survivors of a flood that wiped out those that angered "GOD". <----------- How is that possible? I hope your garage door was repaired right and didn't cost a lot.


Noah, his wife, their 3 sons and their wives were the only survivors of the flood (8 in all). The daughters-in-law could have been from different races. It's even possible that Noah's wife was a different race. Maybe all 8 possessed genetics to produce children of different races. The most important part of your question though is that we're all part of the Human Race, all created by the same God, all for the same purpose...to believe in God.

You have asked many good questions. I applaud your depth of creative thinking and challenges. You're the kind of person that would be  an interesting conversationalist over dinner. Anyway, let me see if there are any I can answer since I'm not an evolutionist as you may have guessed. I'm more comfortable with creationism. 

I can only say there are still questions that evolutionists have like who our direct evolutionary ancestor was (although some paleoanthropologists think it's Hilde-something lol...or was it another species). They still don't know how much inbreeding there was between our species and Neanderthals. And they don't know how we're going to evolve from here.

Oh, and "Garage Door Mike" fixed my door with flying colors for $80. Since I was originally just going to replace it with a new one for $2000, I was quite happy to pay the $80, ice water for the crew, and a tip. It's been a good day in NC :thumbsup:


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 30, 2019)

Sunny,

Well, that’s my point isn’t it?  You can’t prove the non-existence of something.

My other point is it doesn’t matter what you call what you fall off of-dead is dead.

Who says the burden of proof is on the person who makes the statement? It’s not. I have nothing to prove to anyone.  Proof would only matter if I really wanted someone to believe in the tooth fairy.  I don’t.  Remember, believe or don’t believe.  It’s a matter of faith, no proof required.  It is a mistake to assume that anyone cares if someone believes them or not.  

In the house I grew up in, there was no tooth fairy, no quarters under the pillow, and survival was a challenge.  This is what happens when you assume certain unknown facts from a position of complete ignorance.  You say silly things.


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## Warrigal (Apr 30, 2019)

This tread is starting to illustrate the futility of this kind of discussion: many people spending a lot of time and energy attempting to reconcile diametrically opposite ideas and opinions. Sooner or later several people get very frustrated and then the discussion begins to heat up.

It is good to explore different ideas and beliefs but sooner or later a point is reached where it has bogged down and going nowhere. It is then time for everyone to get on with living out their principles and beliefs in real life. Believer or atheist, if we all do that, together we can make a difference in this world. We can come together for the good of our neighbours.


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## Lara (Apr 30, 2019)

Really Warrigal? I didn't see that one coming. I think it's an excellent thread with almost 3,000 Views and 230 Replies...and it's only been a week! I just walk away from "the heat" and use my time where discussion is of interest to me...and there's plenty of that in this thread in my opinion.


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## Gary O' (Apr 30, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> This tread is starting to illustrate the futility of this kind of discussion: many people spending a lot of time and energy attempting to reconcile diametrically opposite ideas and opinions.  .



We’re all of the age here where our personal beliefs are quite set….like etched….in stone.

The Bible does look to be a nice story, some seemingly infantile in places, some rather farfetched.

But

If yer lookin’, and wondering

The prophecies are irrefutable 
So precise, there is no argument

The well-known one, in the book of Daniel, interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is a prime example.

It made things very actual (note to self; hey this shit is real) for this foul creature 

But, that’s just me

Not here to convert anyone

I’ve heard all the arguments pro and con
Too many times

There’s just never enough beer for such debates



Please continue, though

Just try not to be vile about it

Especially about The One still trying to save this gnarly ass in spite of himself 

Tends to piss me off


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## fmdog44 (Apr 30, 2019)

Pepper said:


> What people believe to be true is considered fact for them without evidence or based on rumors they wish to believe.  No politics allowed, I know, but you can see examples of this in present day society.


You are defining "faith", the opposite of fact. All religion mold followers in to believing what they throw at them and keep throwing at them until they concede.


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## Gary O' (Apr 30, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> You are defining "faith", the opposite of fact. All religion mold followers in to believing what they throw at them and keep throwing at them until they concede.



Not necessarily 

‘Faith’ is not blind, as often stated, even by well-meaning Christians
Just the opposite

‘Faith’ can see things that are not ‘there’

It just takes experience

And knowledge 

Like right now, you have faith in what you actually don’t see

You have faith that you have a front door, even though you’re on the back porch
You know its color, shape, and function
You can ‘see’ it

Understanding the written Word is like that
But you have to have the knowledge
And experience

It takes study

Not many are willing to study that Book

Sadly, many of those of religion work it all like a surgeon
Reaping monetary rewards

I do hate 'religion' for that
It fosters the opposite of everything good
And exemplified in the Gospels when The Lord rebuked the Pharisees


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## Sunny (May 1, 2019)

OK, so I looked up definitions of "faith," and as usual, got several different points of view. Some of them just pretty much said it is belief in something. Others were along the line of:

"firm belief in something for which there is no proof" (Merriam Webster).

These are two very different concepts. If to you it means the belief that you have a front door, that is just a belief in reality, something that can be proven, which is based on the evidence of your
own senses. And it is not a stubborn insistence that you have a front door; what if you were living in a war zone and heard a loud bang from the direction of your front door? You might _hope _that your front door is still there, but you probably wouldn't have _faith _that it is. (Let's hope that none of us ever have to have that kind of faith in our life!)

The second definition is the problematic one. Anyone can say he/she believes that something or someone exists, based on "faith." That immediately shuts the door on any rational discourse. Yes, Aneeda, I can keep insisting that there is a Tooth Fairy, because I "just know" she is there. (Whether or not you believed in her as a child is not the point; I didn't either, that was just an example of belief in an imaginary being.)  And a psychotic can keep insisting that a boogeyman is lurking in his closet, though he can't prove it. 

You can believe that black cats and broken mirrors bring bad luck, and throwing salt over your shoulder brings good luck. Those superstitiions are also based on "faith" for those who believe in them.
Whether I believe there is any validity to those beliefs, in the absence of any evidence, is of course up to me.




> Well, that’s my point isn’t it?  You can’t prove the non-existence of something.
> 
> My other point is it doesn’t matter what you call what you fall off of-dead is dead.
> 
> Who says the burden of proof is on the person who makes the statement? It’s not.




1. I repeat, I don't _have to _prove the non-existence of something. In the absence of evidence. If there is no evidence, it's all just conjecture, not fact.
2. Yes, "dead is dead."  So, falling off a wave and dying is the same thing as proving that the earth is flat?  Wow, where to even begin answering that one?
3. Yes, no matter how many times you try denying it, the burden of proof is always on the one making an assertion, not to those hearing their assertion. This is true for absolutely every idea which is supposedly fact (not opinion) that has ever been offered by anybody. Otherwise, you are just stubbornly repeating, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."​


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## Knight (May 1, 2019)

Looking for proof & questioning various points has brought me to looking up the definitions of fact & fiction. While reading the definitions I came across a reference to a well researched source. I googeled this 


http://www.archive.org/stream/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft_djvu.txt


Full text of "Bible myths and their parallels in other religions : being a comparison of the Old and New Testament myths and miracles with those of heathen nations of antiquity, considering also their origin and meaning"


It's extremely long so taking time to read it will not be done today. But as I understand the definitions of and fiction the bible is fiction. That doesn't mean those that believe are being fooled it just means science and proving various events to have a factual explanation works for me. 

Thanks for the comment Lara I don't want to come across as antagonistic.


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## Keesha (May 1, 2019)

Knight said:


> Looking for proof & questioning various points has brought me to looking up the definitions of fact & fiction. While reading the definitions I came across a reference to a well researched source. I googeled this
> 
> 
> http://www.archive.org/stream/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft_djvu.txt
> ...


What an excellent post. :clap:


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## Keesha (May 1, 2019)

It’s refreshing to see a thread on such a controversial topic get discussed so respectfully. 
People are being open minded enough to consider other people’s points of view. 
Most threads I’ve seen on this topic aren’t usually this civil. 
Its a nice read.


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## Aneeda72 (May 1, 2019)

I would point out, again, that the thread is not about the Bible, the tooth fairy, or weather or not the earth is flat.  The thread is not about religion.  Due to the make up of the members of the forum the thread does seem to concentrate mostly on the Christian gods-whether they exist or don’t.

It seems that most of the believers, believe in God the Father which does not exclude the Big Bang theory, IMO.  JC as the son of god; but what about all the other religious great men who are prophets of god.  What god are they a prophet of?  What about preachers who claim when they die they will sit at the right hand of god?

Not to mention reincarnation.  I would like to believe in reincarnation, return to this life in a better healthier body.  Who knows about this?  Let’s widen the discussion to other sons of gods, those known as prophets.


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## Lara (May 1, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> I would point out, again, that the thread is not about the Bible, the tooth fairy, or weather or not the earth is flat.  The thread is not about religion.  Due to the make up of the members of the forum the thread does seem to concentrate mostly on the Christian gods-whether they exist or don’t....what about all the other religious great men who are prophets of god.  What god are they a prophet of?  What about preachers who claim when they die they will sit at the right hand of god?...Let’s widen the discussion to other sons of gods, those known as prophets.


You say this thread is not about the Bible...but rather "Who is God"...but the Bible is God's Word that tells who he is (and also tells us that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God). Btw, Christians only believe in one God and one Son of God*. I hope I've helped to explain Who God Is from a Christian perspective.
So I will quietly move to the back of the room :wave: Do I hear clapping in the rafters?:applause2::laugh:  

Enjoy, and thank you for having me in the thread for at least awhile. I enjoyed everyone. I know it was hard for some. I understand.

_*One God in 3 forms (Father, Son, and spirit) with 3 separate functions, purposes
_


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## fmdog44 (May 1, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Not necessarily
> 
> ‘Faith’ is not blind, as often stated, even by well-meaning Christians
> Just the opposite
> ...



Faith on knowing the status of a door is hardly comparable to that of millions of people all over the world on creation of life. Note also there are episodes of the faithful "seeing" angels and other deities. These visions or miracles are tied to faith. Also, faith dictates human behavior in the critical areas of our lives and those are the areas I find deplorable. The history of worshiping a God is not a pretty one to put it mildly.


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## Aneeda72 (May 1, 2019)

Lara,

Stay in the front of the room.  This thread needs you.  It seems, and I could be wrong, that at times the thread is in danger of becoming a bible study group.  This would be fine if everyone weren’t not so rusty, except you and a few others, on the Bible.  Do not make me read my Bible, lol.  I actually found a copy.  The one that weights five pounds.  How could I misplace that?


I am aware that Christians believe in one god and that JC is the son.  I believe this.  But there must be non-Christian believers, who believe in god, who could share their beliefs as well.  I am just inviting others to participate.  All views are welcome.

Knight made an interesting point in his genesis scripture (can’t figure out the quote thing) 11-9 quote about “let us go down”.  Whose is the “let us”?


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## Keesha (May 1, 2019)

Just when I thought all perspectives were being taken into account equally. 
Perhaps that was wishful thinking on my part. 
Its always been my understanding that the bible is an interpretation of how our religious  God became. 
It’s been interesting reading all the different perspectives on the same subject. 
It shows how diverse our understanding of it is and yet none are wrong; just different.


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## Lara (May 1, 2019)

Thank you Aneeda but it's time for me to observe and enjoy from a distance. I agree with you that others may like to see less "Bible Study" and rather see more non-christians sharing about their idea of God or Gods. For me to step back perhaps will make them more comfortable to participate. I'll be interested and will continue following the thread


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## CeeCee (May 1, 2019)

Keesha said:


> Just when I thought all perspectives were being taken into account equally.
> Perhaps that was wishful thinking on my part.
> Its always been my understanding that the bible is an interpretation of how our religious  God became.
> It’s been interesting reading all the different perspectives on the same subject.
> It shows how diverse our understanding of it is and yet none are wrong; just different.



None are wrong about their understanding and NONE are right...nobody knows for sure....nobody. 

We might get an answer when we die but we might not.


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## Keesha (May 1, 2019)

CeeCee said:


> None are wrong about their understanding and NONE are right...nobody knows for sure....nobody.
> 
> We might get an answer when we die but we might not.


I agree or we might get an answer after we die. :shrug:


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## Sunny (May 1, 2019)

So in other words, we really "don't know nuthin."  Which is what I've been saying. Not about what happens after we die, at any rate.

In my case, the more I learn about the universe, mostly from the brilliant videos available on TV, the more I realize how little any of us know. Example below:

Just thinking about numbers like that takes my breath away. So to me, it makes absolutely no sense to take seriously the concepts of "God the father" made up millenia ago by people who were trying to understand, but who lived in a much smaller, narrower universe than we do, people who believed the earth was a little over 5,000 years old, etc.  And who had no concept of the vastness of what is out there.

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwi...r-of-sand-grains-on-earth-or-stars-in-the-sky


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## Warrigal (May 1, 2019)

This topic seems to have morphed a little. It started out as Who is God? and has moved into What is Faith?
This is an interesting question and some of the posts I have read seem to equate faith with belief but they are not the same concept.

IMO faith is more linked to trust than belief. Faith is something innate in humans. In infants it seems to be intuitive and as the child grows their faith grows and matures through stages. It is not necessarily religious faith. Everyone places their faith in something. Some trust science, some money and others trust power. Some put their faith in the rule of law and rules to live by. To give an example of the faith of a child - when a father holds out his arms to a child standing on top of the closet and says "Jump", the child doesn't hesitate, he happily jumps, confident that he will be safe. He has faith in his parent.

If anyone is interested in looking into the nature of faith and how it develops as we mature, I recommend a book by Fowler titled Stages of Faith. It is about faith as a general concept and also how it exhibits in the context of the secular as well as religion. Anyone familiar with the work of Bruner, Piaget or Kohlberg will find this book informative.


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## Gary O' (May 1, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Faith on knowing the status of a door is hardly comparable to that of millions of people all over the world on creation of life. Note also there are episodes of the faithful "seeing" angels and other deities. These visions or miracles are tied to faith. Also, faith dictates human behavior in the critical areas of our lives and those are the areas I find deplorable. The history of worshiping a God is not a pretty one to put it mildly.



To each his own

I fully understand


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

Warrigal,

An interesting concept not only faith vs. belief, but how the thread has changed into different things for different people.  How most of us view what the discussion is about in different ways.  No wonder the human race cannot come to a meeting of the minds in general, let alone on this thread, on agreeing who god is or was.  God had to evolve as we evolved.

Unfortunately, I must disagree on your take of faith vs belief.  Yes, children learn to trust through their interactions with their parents.  They also learn to distrust.  Had my father put me on a high dresser and told me to jump, I would have jumped-out of fear of my father.  Better to hit the floor when he stepped back and refused to catch me, then endure the beating for not obeying his command.

In a way, surprisingly, this makes Sunny’s, and others, point.  People worshiped god in early times not necessarily because of a belief in god,  but a belief in what would happen due to non-belief.  The herd mentality was even stronger in those days.  Follow the popular beliefs or be kicked out of the herd.  Wanton woman were stoned to death.

Which makes the bravery of the early Christians even more amazing, especially the bravery of Mary, the mother of JC who has not been discussed on this thread.  While the thread hasn’t talked about fate, fate plays a large role as well.  If at any step in the process someone had failed or refused to fulfill their part in the drama of the accession of JC, then his godhood would have/might have failed.

Hand if fate?  Hand of God?  Who wants/can explain the difference?  Is there a difference?


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## Knight (May 2, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Knight made an interesting point in his genesis scripture (can’t figure out the quote thing) 11-9 quote about “let us go down”.  Whose is the “let us”?


 The use of us appears again in  Genesis 3:22. 

There is a variety of interpretations at this web site.

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/3-22.htm

No matter what the various interpretations are,  it seems to me "GOD" is implying there are more that have equal standing. I put "GOD"  in quotes because that is the theme of this thread. Given the reference to us & the theme includes other potentials.   What do you think about us being used ?


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## sarnialass (May 2, 2019)

I am of the opinion all gods are human creations.


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

Knight,

Well, yes, which is why I said gods in the title-there has to be more than one, IMO.  I was surprised that no one on the forum has yet brought up another god.  The LDS faith/religion in the world is huge and growing.  They use the Book of Mormon not the Bible.  They worship God the Father.  But is this the same God the father the Christian and Jewish religions worship?

As for “us” gaining knowledge and living forever that’s really interesting.  Does this passage refer to the entire human race living forever and not the individuals who make up the human race?  (The human race would live forever as we procreate.).  The afterlife could simply mean the children who live after us, therefore, we-the human race-lives forever.

The other human races, such as humans of the Big Bang, descendent of apes, or whatever, either die off or mingle with the humans of the creations of gods and become one human race which lives forever through their children.  This lets both believers and non-believers be right and wrong together.  Lol.

My son with Down syndrome is genetically different from humans without DS.  But all people with Down’s syndrome have this genetic difference, the same basic features, and look very much alike.  It is not hard to believe that they were a different race in the beginning.

It just gets more and more interesting.


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## Keesha (May 2, 2019)

sarnialass said:


> I am of the opinion all gods are human creations.


I prefer ‘goddess’ thank you. :yes:


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## fmdog44 (May 2, 2019)

I believe there is a creator and what was created on this planet was dinosaurs that existed for millions of years. After they were destroyed man evolved. The Earth created in just a few days?! How can anyone believe such nonsense? Man was given a brain to use to reason and question. Religion does not allow either.


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

Sigh.  Fmdog44, how can you question the existence of god and religion, then squeeze yourself in a tiny little box and declare earth couldn’t be created in just a few days?  How long were the days during the time of creation?  When were the sun and moon created?-our current method of marking time.

Plus, if man was “given” a brain to reason and question, who gave him the brain?  A, hmm, GOD?  LOL, sorry couldn’t resist.  Forgive me, my joke could have been so much worst.  Really, a lot worst.  I keep myself to kindergarten rules as well.

We have a brain to love, laugh, grieve, see, hear, and experience the world with joy and sorrow in our hearts and souls.  One of my to be adopted sons was born with a brain stem, and a fluid filled sack in his head-hydrocephalus- a very extreme case.  No brain to interpret the world around him.  He lived one year.

While some of us are able to reason and question, many cannot.  Think of all the mentally retarded and mentally impaired millions in the world who cannot, for several reasons, reason in the way you mean.  Let alone question why they go hungry and die with only God by their side for without God they would be truly alone.  Do we condemn them to a world of non-belief?

Keep in mind, that I agree with you about many religions.  Some religions do not allow the freedom to question, to inquire, to dislike in any way of their required systems of belief.  But some do.  Everyone chooses the religion that suits their needs the most. But, as I keep saying, the gods, or God, is NOT a religion.  While you may discuss religion here, this is not a discussion about religion.  This is a discussion about who are the gods?


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## Sunny (May 2, 2019)

I kind of like the Greek/Roman cast of characters. An interesting, lively bunch.


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## RadishRose (May 2, 2019)

I go with the Nordic bunch....I've always had a crush on Thor!


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## fmdog44 (May 2, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Sigh.  Fmdog44, how can you question the existence of god and religion, then squeeze yourself in a tiny little box and declare earth couldn’t be created in just a few days?  How long were the days during the time of creation?  When were the sun and moon created?-our current method of marking time.
> 
> Plus, if man was “given” a brain to reason and question, who gave him the brain?  A, hmm, GOD?  LOL, sorry couldn’t resist.  Forgive me, my joke could have been so much worst.  Really, a lot worst.  I keep myself to kindergarten rules as well.
> 
> ...


And mankind decides what is God? Sorry, but the roast does not make the chef. You have not the slightest clue about the creator rather only what like followers tell you on Sunday. You must never dictate to others about what you think.


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## Olivia (May 2, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> You must never dictate to others about what you think.



Said the kettle to the pot.


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

Fmdog44,

I was not dictating.  You are not a captive audience tied to a chair in a dark dank room hanging on my every word for a bowl of cold nasty soup.  Lol.  You are free to read or not to read what I write, as is everyone else.  Nor did I accuse you of dictating your opinion.  As I am free to read or not read it; respond or not respond.  We are simply sharing our opinions.

I don’t go to church, as I have said I am a non-practicing Catholic.  As to my not having the slightest clue as to who the creator is, was, or might be, yup, you nailed it-I don’t.  I am old, but not that old.  I was not there when the earth was created.  I did not observe the Big Bang or any other form of creation, except you know, I was there when I got pregnant.  But, hmm, I wasn’t an observer. 

Does mankind decide what or who is god?  A interesting question and IMO, yes.  Historically, mankind has decided what is god and who is god.   IMO, mankind still does decide this.  After all, it was a segment of mankind that decided to crucify JC.  Another segment of mankind did the deed.  (There was a choice between JC and one other guy).

Two different religious groups, The Romans and the Jews, conspired to end the life of JC.  Had JC not died, he wouldn’t have ascended.  Had he not ascended; he would not have achieved godhood.  Had JC not achieved godhood; the Christian religion would not have been born.  Fate or the hand of god the father?  Another thing I just don’t know.

One of my sons, who has an IQ of 53, believes in god.  He never attends church, but he believes in god.  He doesn’t read so no bible.  He doesn’t go to church so no learning there.  Basically, he learned about god from movies and tv.  When he is sick, he asks me to pray for him.  I’m am believer, I pray for him.  He is a true believer with a pure soul, his belief is blind faith.

He doesn’t know who or what god is.  He doesn’t question like we do.  A non-believer could not convince him, or anyone like him, that there is no god.  Although, I will not be there he will not die alone.


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## Warrigal (May 2, 2019)

> He is a true believer with a pure soul, his belief is blind faith.



He is an intuitive faith, in some ways the purest kind.


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

Thanks Warrigal.

I googled intuitive faith.  Apparently there is research on this and the results say ones belief is not influenced by IQ.  It was really interesting.


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## Pepper (May 2, 2019)

Aneeda72 said:


> Two different religious groups, The Romans and the *Jews*, conspired to end the life of JC.
> *
> Today is Holocaust Remembrance Day.*​
> "There is no basis in the scripture for the argument that the Jewish people were responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. That's the declaration made by Pope Benedict the sixteenth, in his forthcoming book, "Jesus of Nazareth, Part II"."
> https://www.npr.org/2011/03/04/134264425/Pope-Jews-Are-Not-Responsible-For-Killing-Jesus


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## Aneeda72 (May 2, 2019)

I did not say that the Jewish people were responsible for the death of Christ.  I did not say that the Romans were responsible for the death of Christ.  Please do not put words in my mouth.

In fact, it’s a non point that you have made, IMO.  The responsibility, for the death of JC, rest solely with the father of JC, and JC himself.  I believe I mentioned that.  Both of the mentioned groups were there.  Both of the mentioned groups wanted JC dead, both of the groups talked together about it (conspired), and, IMO, both groups figured out how to accomplish the deed.  I could be wrong.  It’s my opinion, not a craved in stone pronouncement.  Again, I wasn’t there.

But neither of the groups I mentioned or groups that might have been there and I didn’t mention matter.  JC had to die.  The key to the whole thing is that   Jesus Christ  had   to   die.  He could have been bitten by a infected bat, during a sermon, and died in full view of his followers.  Would have worked just as well as far as I am concerned.  Being crucified wasn’t special.

(As a side note, I don’t mean to be insensitive , but I have no ideal what the Holocaust has to do with this thread.)


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## Pepper (May 3, 2019)

"As a side note, I don’t mean to be insensitive , but I have no ideal what the Holocaust has to do with this thread."

I was reacting to a quote by you, *in this thread*, that was copied verbatim.  Doesn't hurt to remember those who died as a direct result of that quote (*in this thread*) throughout history, especially as yesterday actually was Holocaust Remembrance Day.  No need to get defensive.


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## Gary O' (May 3, 2019)

Uh, I think we're all pretty responsible


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## Aneeda72 (May 3, 2019)

Pepper,

Off topic, but I want to respond.  It always amazes when people who don’t know you pass judgement on how they think you feel.  I’ve noticed this happens quite a bit in real life and on forms.  This is only the second forum I’ve been on but I notice a certain tendency towards judgement by a certain few people.  I judge people as well.

You either misread what I wrote, misunderstood what I wrote, or simply didn’t care what I wrote since you had your own agenda.  You, after all, did not include anything concerning my comment about the Romans in your comments.  Apparently, you are not a fan of the Romans of biblical times, and the gods they worshiped.

Obviously, your posting had nothing to do with this thread, and that’s fine.  However, if you are Jewish I would like you to join the discussion on this thread, and add information about the god/gods you believe in, a god I know only through the Old Testament and, yup, Jewish relatives.  As for my being defensive, I’m not.

The person who died as a direct result of my quote was Jesus Christ.  JC had nothing to do with the death of anyone but himself.

My suggestion is you could start a remembrance thread.  You could post a remembrance for our troops who died when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.  I lost quite a few family members to WWII.  How about a remembrance for those how died when we dropped two big nasty bombs on Japan.

A remembrance for when the Germans killed a massive amount of other innocent people.  Let’s not focus on just one group.  Let’s not blame JC for all those WWII deaths caused by an insane fool named HILTER.

Yup, you caught me at a bad moment.  Daughter and family moving out of state, husband dying of lung cancer, having to sell my house, and downsize.  Wondering how I will survive it all, and explain it all to my two mentally retarded sons.  Yup, a truly crappy time in my life.  Defensive?  Nope. Just really pissed off at the world.  Pardon my language.   Done venting.  Start your own thread, I promise to make random nonsensical comments on it.

Apparently, I am not done venting after all, lol.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2019)

I am drawn to the feminine face of the divine, in whatever manifestation that may be. A loving, nurturing being. Call her what you will.


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## Warrigal (May 3, 2019)

Proverbs Ch 8 is a very poetic description of Wisdom. 
Wisdom is personified as female and is given divine attributes.
Worth a read and a few minutes reflection.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Proverbs Ch 8 is a very poetic description of Wisdom.
> Wisdom is personified as female and is given divine attributes.
> Worth a read and a few minutes reflection.


Thanks Warri, I will check it out.


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## Lara (May 3, 2019)

Shalimar said:


> I am drawn to the feminine face of the divine, in whatever manifestation that may be. A loving, nurturing being. Call her what you will.


Will the Greek Goddess of Love do?


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2019)

I respect your opinion, Lara, but I have a different perspective here.
oops, just read your adjusted post. No, not really, the love I referenced was not an earthly love.


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## Sunny (May 3, 2019)

So, this has apparently morphed into a discussion of Greek gods and goddesses (I was kidding when I wrote my comment in #256), and poetic rhapsodies about wisdom, etc.  Boy, we've come a long way in this thread!

Here's a serious question, on the level:  why do so many humans seem to need gods and goddesses?  Belief in supernatural beings has been with us down through the ages. Gods, goddesses, ogres, witches, goblins, devils, imps, gnomes,spirits, fairies, you name it.  We humans seem to be so frustrated with our own limitations that we keep inventing creatures who can do the things we cannot.

But to an educated mind, ALL of the supernatural creatures we have dreamed up are imaginary.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2019)

With respect, Sunny, I have an educated mind, others here also. We may simply see things differently.


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## Lara (May 3, 2019)

Just to clarify the scripture in Proverbs 8 that Warrigal referred to...the personification of both wisdom and folly in the two different women is used for the purpose to present the benefits and judgement of both wisdom and folly. A woman of wisdom benefits her husband just as a woman of folly (flirtatious) destroys him. These words were written as a father to son using a powerful method to illustrate God's wisdom.

Reading these words in context provides a deeper understanding and application for life today. In chapter 9 it says to flee from folly and embrace wisdom.


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2019)

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Lara.


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## Warrigal (May 3, 2019)

Sunny said:


> So, this has apparently morphed into a discussion of Greek gods and goddesses (I was kidding when I wrote my comment in #256), and poetic rhapsodies about wisdom, etc.  Boy, we've come a long way in this thread!
> 
> Here's a serious question, on the level:  why do so many humans seem to need gods and goddesses?  Belief in supernatural beings has been with us down through the ages. Gods, goddesses, ogres, witches, goblins, devils, imps, gnomes,spirits, fairies, you name it.  We humans seem to be so frustrated with our own limitations that we keep inventing creatures who can do the things we cannot.
> 
> But to an educated mind, ALL of the supernatural creatures we have dreamed up are imaginary.



Funny you should refer to the imaginary. The Pythagoreans worshipped numbers. They never did discover or dream up the set of imaginary numbers that we refer to as complex numbers but they were always seeking numbers with unusual properties such as triangular, square and cubic numbers, and of course, the primes. People see the divine in all sort of things.


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## Nihil (May 3, 2019)

Sunny said:


> why do so many humans seem to need gods and goddesses?



Our big brains gave us more questions than we could answer. Humans can be frightened of the unknown.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 4, 2019)

Some have asked for an atheist's opinion of gods.  If one does not believe in the supernatural, how does one explain the human belief in gods. As you examine the long list of historical gods, there is one significant trait. They all fulfill a human need.  There are countless "gods of ----", war, cure, rain, crops, love, home, death, birth, the list goes on and on .Gods serve a human purpose. They have some magical powers to alter human events.  Humans appeal to gods  as  tools to elicit changes in human lives. Gods have human emotions-lust, anger, love, even jealousy. Also all gods require some form of tribute. Certain prayers, rituals, offerings of all types from food to human sacrifice.  Another important trait of gods is that they are extremely concerned with human events, and human interactions. Another trait of gods is that monotheism is extremely rare. While there may be a central divinity, it will be accompanied by numerous other divine figures. These figures generally will serve specific human need.  Much like "Saints" in Catholicism and the 33 million gods of Hinduism. An atheist will view gods as human inventions used to fulfill human wants and needs.


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## Olivia (May 4, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Some have asked for an atheist's opinion of gods.  If one does not believe in the supernatural, how does one explain the human belief in gods.



Lol. . . didn't you just do that?


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