# Shooting in Vegas



## chic (Oct 2, 2017)

There was a shooting at the Harvest Country Music Festival in Vegas. Two people are dead, and 26& injured from gunshots fired from an assailant with an automatic weapon. Assailant not captured as I write this.


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## terry123 (Oct 2, 2017)

Its up to 20 dead now and 100 injured.  They are looking for the shooter's live in companion now for more info!  Can't believe this is happening!!!


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## beneDictus (Oct 2, 2017)

A question for the Governor of Nevada...what is he going to do about the gun laws in his state...?


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## dpwspringer (Oct 2, 2017)

Saying up to 50 killed now...


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## Pappy (Oct 2, 2017)

Shooter was 64 years old...this is crazy.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 2, 2017)

Pappy said:


> Shooter was 64 years old...this is crazy.



Wow - that doesn't fit the usual profile.


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## Dragon (Oct 2, 2017)

The report just keep coming so do the Totals Killed and wounded, They said the Shooter was in his 60's, was this a bizarre Suicide by Cop? Unsure more info keeps coming in.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2017)

beneDictus said:


> A question for the Governor of Nevada...what is he going to do about the gun laws in his state...?



No reason to change their laws.   The AUTOMATIC MACHINE GUN USED is already illegal in most states, actually all of the US.   The user must know how to return the gun to automatic from single shot status.


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## hollydolly (Oct 2, 2017)

According to the live news feed we're getting here in London from Vegas...

50 confirmed Dead... over 200 seriously wounded.

The strip has been closed completely... the hospitals are overwhelmed... 

64 year old white, local man, named Stephen Paddock ... a female is believed to have been his accomplice... 

they are saying that it's not clear whether the police shot him dead...or if he shot himself as the police burst into the room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay  hotel... 

This is a complete an utter massacre... I sincerely  hope no-one on this forum has any family or friends  who have been affected by these horrible, senseless killings 


R.I.P.. to all those innocents who died in Las  Vegas, Nevada, USA...  1st October 2017


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## Buckeye (Oct 2, 2017)

beneDictus said:


> A question for the Governor of Nevada...what is he going to do about the gun laws in his state...?



I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that it is already against the law in Nevada to shoot people.

Prayers for all the victims and their families.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

beneDictus said:


> A question for the Governor of Nevada...what is he going to do about the gun laws in his state...?



Nothing. How can you get the guns back that are already out there?

Pandora's box has been opened.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

BobF said:


> No reason to change their laws.   The AUTOMATIC MACHINE GUN USED is already illegal in most states, actually all of the US.   The user must know how to return the gun to automatic from single shot status.



Well no.  Semi Automatics are legal.  Just keep pulling the trigger.  Automatics, just hold the trigger.

Plenty of mass murders have been done with the semi-automatics which are legal.


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## hollydolly (Oct 2, 2017)

Now 406...confirmed seriously injured....


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## Trade (Oct 2, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well no.  Semi Automatics are legal.  Just keep pulling the trigger.  Automatics, just hold the trigger.
> 
> Plenty of mass murders have been done with the semi-automatics which are legal.



You can have a full auto legally. But it's expensive. You need is a pre-1986 sear which will cost you 10-15 grand and a more expensive license. I know of a Doctor back in Florida (he did one of my colonoscopies in fact) that bought 14 of those sears a few years ago for $50,000 as an investment.  They are probably worth about three times that much now on the gun nut market. 






http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/21/machine-guns-legal-practical-guide-full-auto/


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## NancyNGA (Oct 2, 2017)

First I heard of this is right this minute, thanks to SF.  Normally I turn the TV on first thing.  Makes me feel kind of bad about joking around this morning.


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## Don M. (Oct 2, 2017)

We just got off the phone with our Niece in Las Vegas....she and her husband are big country music fans...and we were worried that they may have been there....luckily they didn't go there, and are OK.  She said Las Vegas is in turmoil, and sirens are still going off all over town...the hospitals are swamped.  We've been to Mandalay Bay several times, over the years, and I cannot fathom how someone could do something like this.  It's far too early to know any of the details about the shooters motives and how he got hold of such weapons, and how he managed to set up a "shooting platform" in the hotel without raising some suspicions.  There are a lot of questions that will have to be answered in coming days.


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## applecruncher (Oct 2, 2017)

The report I'm listening to now says the woman was not involved - he had no accomplice.


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## chic (Oct 2, 2017)

There are over 20 dead and 200& injured. Lone shooter, 64 yrs old, was either taken out by police or killed himself. He fired automatic weapons from the top floor of a hotel in which he was staying. 

Condolences to the wounded and families and friends of the slain.


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## RadishRose (Oct 2, 2017)

I just found out!  CBS says 50+ dead, 400+ hospitalized. What horror!


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## chic (Oct 2, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> I just found out!  CBS says 50+ dead, 400+ hospitalized. What horror!



The news says this is the worst mass shooting in U.S. History.


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## hollydolly (Oct 2, 2017)

chic said:


> The news says this is the worst mass shooting in U.S. History.




It seems that the woman wasn't involved with this evil man after all..I suspect the police are suspicious of everyone who was near him...and rightly so of course..


This is the face of Evil ,  the  man who has caused the single worst mass shooting in US history... by a lone gunman.


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## Lara (Oct 2, 2017)

I watched this on the news at 8am. Hearing the pop pop pop of gunshots, innocent people dropping, people running for their lives. I cried. Turned it off. Bawled like a baby. I can't watch it. I can't look at his picture. I'm literally sick to my stomach. Who in the world was standing there calmly videotaping it while everyone else was scattering in a panic?


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 2, 2017)

Horrific news, very sad.  May the dead rest peacefully, condolences to the victim's families.  Wishing the best for the wounded.


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## Trade (Oct 2, 2017)

applecruncher said:


> The report I'm listening to now says the woman was not involved - he had no accomplice.



I was reading some of the comments on yahoo. Lot's of racist remarks about her because she is Asian. You would have thought she was the shooter instead of the old white guy. There are some seriously sick people out there.


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## Falcon (Oct 2, 2017)

A sad day indeed.    Best advice:  STAY  OUT  OF  CROWDS !

Also,  teach your kids to stay out of crowds !


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## hollydolly (Oct 2, 2017)

Good advice Falcon, however it doesn't always work that way.... remember the Paris Cafe shooting in 2015 ( jeez I can hardly believe it was 2 years ago)  ?... a tiny little place , no crowds there, but it was a target for murderers.......there's many other instances, but of course you're perfectly correct, large crowded places are a very easy target for these murdering scum... but what are we all to do?...we'll all end up being afraid to go out _anywhere. _


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ys-caf-bullets-victim-escaped-gun-jammed.html


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

NancyNGA said:


> First I heard of this is right this minute, thanks to SF.  Normally I turn the TV on first thing.  Makes me feel kind of bad about joking around this morning.



I understand.  Me too. It's a sad day and it's not over yet.


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## Trade (Oct 2, 2017)

Falcon said:


> Best advice:  STAY  OUT  OF  CROWDS !



I guess that's one advantage that I have as an introvert. I avoid crowds like the plague.


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## tnthomas (Oct 2, 2017)

Looks like the shooter hated crowds too.


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## applecruncher (Oct 2, 2017)

Trade said:


> I was reading some of the comments on yahoo. Lot's of racist remarks about her because she is Asian. You would have thought she was the shooter instead of the old white guy. There are some seriously sick people out there.



Unfortunately this doesn't surprise me. Seriously sick indeed. I even saw a comment on one site that said OJ probably had something to do with it - I guess that's supposed to be funny.  Makes me wanna puke.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 2, 2017)

Or it could just be one lone guy with major mental illness ...


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## helenbacque (Oct 2, 2017)

And Wayne Lapierre (NRA) does his happy dance.  Product advertisement is good.


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## RadishRose (Oct 2, 2017)

I heard his father was once on the FBI's most wanted list after escaping prison after bank robberies.  Was diagnosed as psychotic and suicidal.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 2, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> I heard his father was once on the FBI's most wanted list after escaping prison after bank robberies.  Was diagnosed as psychotic and suicidal.



That's what the shooter's brother said earlier today. He described their father as a psychopath. He also said he feels like an asteroid fell on him. He had no idea anything was going on with his brother (who did not have all of those weapons when he helped him move recently). I can't imagine how he must feel about his brother.

I'm impressed with the openness of the sheriiff, but they're saying so far they have no idea what was going on with the shooter. They seem to be hoping when the girlfriend or roommate or whatever she was to him gets back into the country, they can get some answers.

My sister has lived in Las Vegas for many years. She and her husband thought about going to the concert but they changed their minds. They rarely go anywhere near the Strip and decided they didn't want to get into the traffic nightmare. Good thing for them, but she described them as being in shock today.


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## RadishRose (Oct 2, 2017)

My goodness Jane, thankfully they did not go!


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 2, 2017)

I was relieved they weren't there but they know people who were and some who were injured. The authorities haven't released the identity of the fatalities so far. My sister's neighbor is an R.N. at University Hospital, the only trauma center in the area, so they got the most seriously injured. She said some of the wounded are not expected to live so the count will continue to rise.


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## tnthomas (Oct 2, 2017)

Just talked to my daughter who lives and works in the area, she was up all last night but is O.K.  3 people she knows were killed in the shooting, the chaos throughout LV and surrounding areas has affected everyone greatly.


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## Buckeye (Oct 2, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Just talked to my daughter who lives and works in the area, she was up all last night but is O.K.  3 people she knows were killed in the shooting, the chaos throughout LV and surrounding areas has affected everyone greatly.



So sorry to hear of your daughter's loss of 3 friends.  This is all just too tragic.


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## Big Horn (Oct 2, 2017)

P.A. Luty, British animal rights advocate and environmentalist, spent his last years assembling weapons, including a home-made submachinegun, to provide a apodictic proof that gun prohibitions can never be effective.  There's a great deal of information about both the man and his guns on his memorial website.  He was a fine man.

http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/

Note: if anyone contests my, along with _Merriam-Webster's _and_ Oxford's_, spelling of _apodictic_ as opposed to _apodeictic, _I shall happily provide the clear etymological path.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 2, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Just talked to my daughter who lives and works in the area, she was up all last night but is O.K.  3 people she knows were killed in the shooting, the chaos throughout LV and surrounding areas has affected everyone greatly.



How awful for your daughter. Three people are a big loss.


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2017)

Falcon said:


> A sad day indeed.    Best advice:  STAY  OUT  OF  CROWDS !
> 
> Also,  teach your kids to stay out of crowds !


The freedom of the many must give way to the freedom of the few?

This 64 year old man had ten weapons with him and several more at home IN HIS RETIREMENT VILLAGE ?

Better think twice before buying into one of these places in future.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> The freedom of the many must give way to the freedom of the few?
> 
> This 64 year old man had ten weapons with him and several more at home IN HIS RETIREMENT VILLAGE ?
> 
> Better think twice before buying into one of these places in future.



My understanding is that he was a multi millionaire from real estate dealings.  He was a former accountant.

His brother said he never had any weapons when he helped him move.


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## tnthomas (Oct 2, 2017)

There have been stories online reporting that ISIS has taken responsibility for the Las Vegas shooting.

The FBI responds with a press conference.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 2, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Just talked to my daughter who lives and works in the area, she was up all last night but is O.K.  3 people she knows were killed in the shooting, the chaos throughout LV and surrounding areas has affected everyone greatly.



Sorry to hear that, my condolences, may they rest in peace.


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## applecruncher (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> The freedom of the many must give way to the freedom of the few?
> 
> This 64 year old man had ten weapons with him and several more at home IN HIS RETIREMENT VILLAGE ?
> 
> Better think twice before buying into one of these places in future.





I don't think it's fair to point the finger at retirement villages.  He could just as easily stored weapons in an upscale suburban home or the basement of a daycare center. There have been mass shootings at schools, churches, movie theatres, restaurants....we can't all avoid those places.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well no.  Semi Automatics are legal.  Just keep pulling the trigger.  Automatics, just hold the trigger.
> 
> Plenty of mass murders have been done with the semi-automatics which are legal.



My comment was that AUTOMATICS are illegal.   The semi automatics are OK in many states and maybe all states as they do not just keep shooting if you hold the trigger back.


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2017)

This is a new world that we live in where human beings can become shooting gallery targets. Killing in a war is inevitable but this kind of peace time carnage within the homeland is horrific. 

I understand about the horror everyone is feeling right now. I still remember how I felt while the gunman was on the loose shooting people at Port Arthur (1996) and how I felt after learning about the small children shot to pieces at Sandy Hook (2012).

 I am not insensitive of everyone's feelings right now but seriously, this is what the future holds unless the people of America decide to address the problem. Falcon is right. Everyone's life is at risk in any venue while ever it is just so easy to amass a private arsenal.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

BobF said:


> My comment was that AUTOMATICS are illegal.   The semi automatics are OK in many states and maybe all states as they do not just keep shooting if you hold the trigger back.



BobF.  My point was that the semi-automatics are just as deadly as the automatics and have been responsible for just about all the record mass murders to date except this one.

So you have to keep pulling the trigger in a crowd like that one attending the concert.  So what?


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> This is a new world that we live in where human beings can become shooting gallery targets. Killing in a war is inevitable but this kind of peace time carnage within the homeland is horrific.
> 
> I understand about the horror everyone is feeling right now. I still remember how I felt while the gunman was on the loose shooting people at Port Arthur (1996) and how I felt after learning about the small children shot to pieces at Sandy Hook (2012).
> 
> I am not insensitive of everyone's feelings right now but seriously, this is what the future holds unless the people of America decide to address the problem. Falcon is right. Everyone's life is at risk in any venue while ever it is just so easy to amass a private arsenal.



The problem has been addressed.  It's the Constitution in the United States.  There's no way they will do what they did in Australia in the United States.


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2017)

applecruncher said:


> I don't think it's fair to point the finger at retirement villages.  He could just as easily stored weapons in an upscale suburban home or the basement of a daycare center. There have been mass shootings at schools, churches, movie theatres, restaurants....we can't all avoid those places.



Yes, I understand now that he did not have all of these guns when he moved in. I'm not blaming the retirement village. It is just that the very idea of guns in retirement homes came as a complete shock to me. But I live in Australia and we have a lot less guns around. We've just concluded our latest amnesty period when weapons can be handed in to the police with no questions asked. They are then destroyed to avoid them being sold on the black market. It is voluntary and does not remove all illegal guns but it helps.

I know I risk offending people who are in shock by even talking about guns now but ever since Sandy Hook the catch cry has been, "Now is not the time to talk about this". However that was nearly 5 years ago. When will it be time to be serious about this monstrous problem? Camper has said that the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back. That is pessimistic thinking in my opinion. An optimist looks at a difficult problem and asks "How can we make things better?". Then looks for practical approaches to that end.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Yes, I understand now that he did not have all of these guns when he moved in. I'm not blaming the retirement village. It is just that the very idea of guns in retirement homes came as a complete shock to me. But I live in Australia and we have a lot less guns around. We've just concluded our latest amnesty period when weapons can be handed in to the police with no questions asked. They are then destroyed to avoid them being sold on the black market. It is voluntary and does not remove all illegal guns but it helps.
> 
> I know I risk offending people who are in shock by even talking about guns now but ever since Sandy Hook the catch cry has been, "Now is not the time to talk about this". However that was nearly 5 years ago. When will it be time to be serious about this monstrous problem? Camper has said that the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back. That is pessimistic thinking in my opinion. An optimist looks at a difficult problem and asks "How can we make things better?". Then looks for practical approaches to that end.



Compared to the number of guns already out there and each state having their own laws and the Constitution.

Australia getting amnesty on guns was a piece of cake.



> I understand now that he did not have all of these guns when he moved  in. I'm not blaming the retirement village. It is just that the very  idea of guns in retirement homes came as a complete shock to me



It's not a shock to me.  He lives in Nevada.


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> The problem has been addressed.  It's the Constitution in the United States.  There's no way they will do what they did in Australia in the United States.



IMO the Constitution is not the problem. It is the interpretation of its intent that is. If the people who framed it were alive today, do you really suppose that they would look upon recent massacres calmly, or would they seek to amend the wording of the second amendment to clarify their intent?

Each nation must find its own solutions to problems. Doing nothing rarely solves anything.
Australia is different to America for many reasons, including history and geography. 
What works for us will not necessarily work elsewhere. 
Step one is always to recognise that there is a problem and to examine it rationally.


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## Sunny (Oct 2, 2017)

I don't understand why the news media keep emphasizing that he was a multimillionaire. So what?  His bank account seems totally irrelevant to me. Nut cases come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, with all sorts of bank balances.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

> Warrigal said:
> 
> 
> > IMO the Constitution is not the problem. It is the interpretation of its intent that is. If the people who framed it were alive today, do you really suppose that they would look upon recent massacres calmly, or would they seek to amend the wording of the second amendment to clarify their intent?
> ...



Trust me. They recognize the problem.   Have you ever heard of the NRA? You sound like a school teacher.  To examine it rationally.?  It has been examined to death.  Read up on it.


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2017)

a) I have heard of the NRA and really don't need to read up about them, 
b) I *am* a school teacher which is why Sandy Hook affected me so acutely and 
c) the problem needs to be addressed further by people who have the wisdom and the courage to take action.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 2, 2017)

Sunny said:


> I don't understand why the news media keep emphasizing that he was a multimillionaire. So what?  His bank account seems totally irrelevant to me. Nut cases come in all sizes, shapes, and colors, with all sorts of bank balances.



I wondered the same thing, but maybe it's because he can't claim he was economically oppressed by any group or faction. So far we've been told he was a lone wolf and not affiliated with any political group, and that he was wealthy. He doesn't seem to fit any of the demographics we usually expect for terrorists. These lone shooters are scary because they are so unexpected and unpredictable.

The photos I saw of the place where he lived didn't look like a retirement village, not any that I've ever known. He lived in an individual home and it looked like all of his neighbors did too. It actually looked like a regular neighborhood.

His brother said when he helped him move in, he had maybe one or two long rifles, not that arsenal he took to the city.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> a) I have heard of the NRA and really don't need to read up about them,
> b) I *am* a school teacher which is why Sandy Hook affected me so acutely and
> c) the problem needs to be addressed further by people who have the wisdom and the courage to take action.



It's like in Canada.  Inquiry after inquiry.  Recommendations after recommendations and nothing changes. 

What you don't get is that the problem has been addressed hundreds if not thousands of times.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I wondered the same thing, but maybe it's because he can't claim he was economically oppressed by any group or faction. So far we've been told he was a lone wolf and not affiliated with any political group, and that he was wealthy. He doesn't seem to fit any of the demographics we usually expect for terrorists. These lone shooters are scary because they are so unexpected and unpredictable.
> 
> The photos I saw of the place where he lived didn't look like a retirement village, not any that I've ever known. He lived in an individual home and it looked like all of his neighbors did too. It actually looked like a regular neighborhood.
> 
> His brother said when he helped him move in, he had maybe one or two long rifles, not that arsenal he took to the city.



He was a multimillionaire.  As such he could afford to buy all the weapons he ever wanted and any type he wanted.


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## NancyNGA (Oct 2, 2017)

It looks like one little thing they could at least do is start using collapsible fences around concerts.  All day long I've heard horror stories about not being able to get over "the fence," or putting ramps up to get over the fence, not being able to find the gate.  I know that's treating a symptom, not the disease, but just a thought...


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## Falcon (Oct 2, 2017)

If  somebody wants a gun  (of ANY kind) ; they're going to get one,  one way or another; buy it; steal it, or even MAKE  it.

MY concern is to protect  MY kids from being a target, as I mentioned in another thread.  And  I  iterate;  Stay out of crowds.

It seems that todays kids think it's fun to  get into a mosh pit  under a stage  where their  "idols"  are  "entertaining".

I'm sure you've seen the pictures;  There's  NO  means of escape  if trouble  arises!  Maybe  this why so many  people died

in Las Vegas.  Trade is right; he said that he'd never put himself in that kind of a situation.

But todays'  kids think of following  the crowd  regardless of the outcome.

End of rant #2.


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## Big Horn (Oct 2, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> He was a multimillionaire.  As such he could afford to buy all the weapons he ever wanted and any type he wanted.


I wish.  Not since 1934.


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## maxHR (Oct 2, 2017)

If Sandy Hook could not result in change nothing ever will.
Americans will just keep shooting each other til they are all dead and the country is destroyed.


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## Don M. (Oct 2, 2017)

So far, this Las Vegas shooting makes absolutely no sense.  This shooter doesn't appear to fall into Any category that one would suspect might lead to trouble....and That is the really scary part of this tragedy.  I hope in coming days, the authorities can find some reason behind this lunatics actions....if not, we are entering a new realm of potential mayhem.


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## helenbacque (Oct 2, 2017)

A brain tumor was found on autopsy of Charles Whitman, the shooter in the 1966 U. of TX Tower mass shootings.  He was another 'could be your next door neighbor' type.  Wonder if ..............


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 2, 2017)

Don M. said:


> So far, this Las Vegas shooting makes absolutely no sense.  This shooter doesn't appear to fall into Any category that one would suspect might lead to trouble....and That is the really scary part of this tragedy.  I hope in coming days, the authorities can find some reason behind this lunatics actions....if not, we are entering a new realm of potential mayhem.



I thought the same thing when Elliott Rodger killed 6 people in Isla Vista CA because the kind of beautiful girls he wanted weren't interested in him. Before he went on his killing spree, Rodger created a YouTube  channel titled "Why do girls hate me so much?"in which he asked, "I don't  know why you girls are so repulsed by me. It doesn't make sense," Rodger  said. "I do everything I can to appear attractive to you. I dress nice,  I'm sophisticated. I'm magnificent. I have a nice car, a BMW. Well,  it's nicer than 90 percent of the people in my college."

It obviously doesn't take much to set these guys off. Makes me wonder if they all have some form of CTE.


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> I wish.  Not since 1934.



Just because there is a law against automatic weapons? They are available for the military and the black market and the old ones are still o.k.

And from other countries .


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## Camper6 (Oct 2, 2017)

NancyNGA said:


> It looks like one little thing they could at least do is start using collapsible fences around concerts.  All day long I've heard horror stories about not being able to get over "the fence," or putting ramps up to get over the fence, not being able to find the gate.  I know that's treating a symptom, not the disease, but just a thought...


There were fences. They got pushed down and trampled over in the escape.
Now you have to worry about the copy cats .


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## Big Horn (Oct 2, 2017)

*ISIS Claims Him As One of Their Own*

"The Islamic State Group said the worst mass shooting in recent US history was perpetrated by one of its "soldiers," claiming that Paddock had converted to Islam in recent weeks and carried out the attack in its name."

It's difficult to believe that ISIS would lie about something that would destroy their credibility if it were exposed.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/stephen-paddock-retired-accountant-vegas-gunman-150558606.html


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2017)

It will be interesting to hear what his girlfriend has to say about his recent behaviour.

She is overseas and I am wondering whether she left him and that is what  set him off.

Whatever it was, he must have been brewing for some time to amass his arsenal. That alone indicates planning.


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## beneDictus (Oct 3, 2017)

With the sheer number of fatalities, and wounded....the perp must have been just blazing away uninterrupted for several minutes, from his vantage point. Ex cop, or ex military...maybe having been in possession of the weapon for some considerable time, as he certainly knew exactly how to use it. With an autopsy, i hope that they will be able to determine whether he was under the influence of some particular drug. Perhaps because of psychiatric problems...


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## dpwspringer (Oct 3, 2017)

It is unbelievable that no motive has surfaced. This guy put a LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT into this, had no plan to survive it, and he was obviously intelligent... and he didn't leave behind any clue as to why or what he was thinking? How can that be so?


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2017)

Yes, Springer, I think this puts paid to the ISIS theory because new converts tend to be zealous and boast about their actions. It will be interesting to find out what his computer reveals.


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## Dragon (Oct 3, 2017)

Are they including skint knees and sprains among the injury's attributed to this because it sure seems like an awful lot. Not much on details, just that over 500 injured. Or are all these gunshot victims?


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2017)

Maybe not all gunshot wounds but in the panic some will have been crushed and some may even have had heart attacks. One report did say that the death toll will rise because some of the injured are critical.


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## Mike (Oct 3, 2017)

This is very bad and sadly a thread like this one appears
every few months and yet your Government does not one
thing to try and change things.

Why don't they steer the companies that make guns to
make something different and only make guns for the
military when they need new ones, stop all retail sales
to the general public.

I know that a lot of you will not agree with me and I can
see your point, weapons have been part of your life all of
your life. Still something needs doing and doing fast.

It is bad enough here having violence sent to us ordered
in another country, but your problem is worse as it is all
internal, another American killing Americans.

Please get some sense.

R.I.P. the dead, my condolences to the living.

Mike.


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## Camper6 (Oct 3, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> "The Islamic State Group said the worst mass shooting in recent US history was perpetrated by one of its "soldiers," claiming that Paddock had converted to Islam in recent weeks and carried out the attack in its name."
> 
> It's difficult to believe that ISIS would lie about something that would destroy their credibility if it were exposed.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/stephen-paddock-retired-accountant-vegas-gunman-150558606.html



ISIS always makes this type of claim.  There's no evidence that he was Islamic or a 'soldier' of ISIS.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 3, 2017)

Early reports are indicating that this shooter modified his weapons to fire virtually automatic.  Last night I looked up the info on a couple of these after market modifications...Bump Fire, and Slide Fire...and it appears that for a couple hundred dollars, and a few minutes work, an AR-15 or AK-47 can be modified to fire as many as 800 rounds per minute.  Now, I am generally an advocate for maintaining the 2nd Amendment, but I see NO reason why such devices should be readily available to the general public.  Interestingly enough, this morning, those manufacturers web sites seem to be down....but here are some examples of these modifications being sold today.  

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=bump+fire


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 3, 2017)

Is it the guns, or our people?

Pasted from-  http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

*Gun Ownership in Switzerland*

*Switzerland issues firearms to adult men and provides training in their use?*


                                                                        14K                                                                      
*Claim:*   Switzerland issues firearms to adult men and provides training in their use.
 





*TRUE*
  *Examples:* _[Collected via e-mail, July  2012]_

Someone on FB has shared a post that claims Switzerland provides each of  its citizens a sig550 assault rifle and provides training in use of  this weapon. Surely this isn’t true!?

 Switzerland issues every adult a gun and trains them how to use it:  Switzerland has lowest gun-related crime rate in the civilized world.



*Origins:*    As noted on Wikipedia,  Swiss men between the ages of 20 and 30 are typically expected to  undergo militia training, a program which includes the issuance of and  instruction in the use of firearms.  



The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly  respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to  undergo basic military training, usually at age 20, after which Swiss  men remain part of the “militia” in reserve capacity until age 30 (or  age 34 for officers). Each such individual is required to keep his  army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, medical and postal personnel) at home.

  When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of  keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their  equipment. In cases of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons  factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then  returned to the discharged owner as a semi-automatic or self-loading  rifle.

 To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is  a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue  personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a permit, which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.


----------



## Knight (Oct 3, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> He was a multimillionaire.  As such he could afford to buy all the weapons he ever wanted and any type he wanted.




I don't get the hysteria over owning a gun, a gun does nothing until it's picked up by someone. There is no way I know of to know beforehand what the intention will be,



To your point few remember the gun running scheme called fast & furious where guns were supposed to be tracked. The guns were lost and wound up being used with horrible consequences. The guns lost in that fast & furious scheme were used to kill countless Mexicans & one US border patrol agent. You probably think as I do, if the U S  government can't get it right, how would more legislation make a difference? 

More to the point if a person with bad intent wants guns they will find a way.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 3, 2017)

Knight said:


> I don't get the hysteria over owning a gun, a gun does nothing until it's picked up by someone. There is no way I know of to know beforehand what the intention will be,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely.  But you should still try to make it a tough way to get a weapon.  At least if it's illegal you could send the guy to jail.  Not so much with a legal weapon.


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 3, 2017)

I've seen a lot of coverage about the Las Vegas shootings and not once have I heard that the shooter was a millionaire.

That aside, sociopaths, drug dealers, people with an axe to grind, disgruntled ex-employees, angry spouses............they ignore the laws and somehow get all the guns they want.


----------



## CeeCee (Oct 3, 2017)

His brother said he was a millionaire.


----------



## Lara (Oct 3, 2017)

applecruncher said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of coverage about the Las Vegas shootings and not once have I heard that the shooter was a millionaire.


I've avoided seeing very much of the news coverage on this but I turned on CBS this morning and they were saying he was a gambler and a multi-millionaire. The news could be wrong, as we all know happens, but I did hear them say it.


----------



## CeeCee (Oct 3, 2017)

Lara said:


> [/FONT][/COLOR]I've avoided seeing very much of the news coverage on this but I turned on CBS this morning and they were saying he was a gambler and a multi-millionaire. The news could be wrong, as we all know happens, but I did hear them say it.




I did hear on one of the press briefings that he had placed a few $25,000 bets recently in a casino but didn't say if he won or lost.

Seems he was a high roller at the casinos and maybe that's why it wasn't noticed that he was bringing suitcases to his room in those few days prior to the shooting.

Probably treat the high rollers slightly different or better in those hotels....I'm just guessing and it's only an opinion.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 3, 2017)

Mike said:


> This is very bad and sadly a thread like this one appears
> every few months and yet your Government does not one
> thing to try and change things.
> 
> ...


People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  Are you familiar with Glasgow?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-europe.html


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 3, 2017)

^^ :clap:


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 3, 2017)

Well, I just found that two of my former fellow San Bernardino County co-workers were victims in the LV shooting.

New story.

Dana Gardner was killed in the shooting.  I did not know her personally, but had seen her on numerous occasions.

Sgt. Brad Powers,  he was a fellow Sheriff's Dept. employee, again- did not know him personally but had seen him around.


I hate this senseless violence!


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 3, 2017)

That's awful, tnthomas.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 3, 2017)

So sorry, Thomas.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 3, 2017)

Why is it that the Swiss are armed to the teeth yet don't shoot each other like we do?

Is it the guns or is there something wrong with our society? With us?

I really don't know, but compared to Switzerland with all their guns something seems wrong.

I have no desire to debate here, just want to hear some opinion on that.  Thanks.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 3, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> Why is it that the Swiss are armed to the teeth yet don't shoot each other like we do?
> 
> Is it the guns or is there something wrong with our society? With us?
> 
> ...


Swiss society is different from ours in many ways.  Can you imagine sales on trust in most places?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3cJbst45zQ


----------



## BobF (Oct 3, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> BobF.  My point was that the semi-automatics are just as deadly as the automatics and have been responsible for just about all the record mass murders to date except this one.
> 
> So you have to keep pulling the trigger in a crowd like that one attending the concert.  So what?



A pistol is also a semi automatic as are rifles.   It is the speed and accuracy of the rifles used yesterday.   How they got converted to automatic yesterday is something nobody has talked of yet.    To have automatic firing weapons in the US is illegal in all states for the normal weapon buyer.


----------



## BobF (Oct 3, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> a) I have heard of the NRA and really don't need to read up about them,
> b) I *am* a school teacher which is why Sandy Hook affected me so acutely and
> c) the problem needs to be addressed further by people who have the wisdom and the courage to take action.



NRA is a group of folks believing in the right to have arms in person and at home as well.    It has been addressed further, and will, but the end will not be the end of arms in the US.   There is no reason to at all.

How about the Swiss.   They have had arms in the home for hundreds of years.   They still do and now they are not swords or pikes as they are now rifles and pistols similar to what the US has these days.

How we got one disjointed person to have so many weapons and have them converted into auto fired with out pulling the trigger for each shot is amazing.   He knew he was a loser as he ended his life when the police were near to raiding his hotel room.

Really want to help hundreds and maybe thousands you should come up with a way to end N Korea's ideas with nuclear weapons and rockets.  That would really be something that most in the world will appreciate.


----------



## Buckeye (Oct 3, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Well, I just found that two of my former fellow San Bernardino County co-workers were victims in the LV shooting.
> 
> New story.
> 
> ...



My condolences on the loss of your coworkers.


----------



## BobF (Oct 3, 2017)

BobF said:


> NRA is a group of folks believing in the right to have arms in person and at home as well.    It has been addressed further, and will, but the end will not be the end of arms in the US.   There is no reason to at all.
> 
> How about the Swiss.   They have had arms in the home for hundreds of years.   They still do and now they are not swords or pikes as they are now rifles and pistols similar to what the US has these days.
> 
> ...



One thing that is getting pretty obvious in the US is a lack of consideration for others ideas and the implementation of rules and regulations.

When I was a kid I grew up during our national economy defeat of the 1930's.    I saw how the non workers would do just about anything to earn a meal.   We had the homeless come to ask for a place to sleep and others wanting a meal.   Mother never let them in the house but had them sit on the back steps and she would put together something for them to eat.   Then as I grew older I saw our teachers taken from authority and told to stand and watch.   Teachers at one time would walk along and slap a students hands with a ruler.   Some teachers, men or women, would physically challenge a student to settle down and allow others to read, respond to the teachers requests, sit up straight, respect others, and not be a disturbance.

Now nothing allowed in our schools that amount to much at all.   Disrespect is allowed from grade school right on up into college levels.   We raise far too many spoiled brats these days.   Look to the violent riots that take place if one person speaks differently from another person.   It is considered a right by some who decide to pummel the other for speaking freely.   The US is generally out of control completely.

Not sure what the Swiss have done but do know they must teach some basics about trust and how to earn it.   They do put guns in the hands of children at early ages.   This is an example of how they teach them how and why to have weapons.   Come of adult age they are for some years considered to be part of their standby army.   When all folks know what the weapons can do and why they are kept at home, then much of this confusion about the US wanting guns at home and wanting most of us to remain as loyal military capable folks, even when no longer of military age.   We should follow what the Swiss have done for so many hundreds of years.

It is not the guns that is the problem ever.    It is the untrained and  undisciplined people that are the main problem.   A loaded gun on the table is no threat to anyone till some untrained or twisted minded on picks it up from the table and start pointing and pulling the trigger.


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 3, 2017)

I think I read that paddock rented two hotel rooms.


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 3, 2017)

applecruncher said:


> I've seen a lot of coverage about the Las Vegas shootings and not once have I heard that the shooter was a millionaire.
> 
> That aside, sociopaths, drug dealers, people with an axe to grind, disgruntled ex-employees, angry spouses............they ignore the laws and somehow get all the guns they want.



On another note, there was a flurry of the fake news variety, insisting that the shooter was an ISIS convert.

Yea, right.  :shrug:


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 3, 2017)

Today for the first time I did hear a reporter say he was a multi-millionaire.  To me doesn't matter.


----------



## chic (Oct 3, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Well, I just found that two of my former fellow San Bernardino County co-workers were victims in the LV shooting.
> 
> New story.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you lost people you knew. My condolences.


----------



## BobF (Oct 3, 2017)

applecruncher said:


> I think I read that paddock rented two hotel rooms.



That was true and it was obvious on views of the hotel.   Looking toward the top area and you could see curtains flying out through the broken windows.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 3, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Well, I just found that two of my former fellow San Bernardino County co-workers were victims in the LV shooting.
> 
> New story.
> 
> ...


Oh, Tn, I am so sorry.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 3, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> Swiss society is different from ours in many ways.  Can you imagine sales on trust in most places?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3cJbst45zQ



That's  heartening. We have many "trust" farm stands for produce here too. Doesn't help with the matter at hand unless the message is "trust your fellow man not to shoot you in the head" which, if that IS the message, doesn't seem to exist here a great deal. Can only wish.

Thanks, I subscribed to the YT site.

Also, being a millionaire doesn't mean much no, except for the huge cost of automatic weapons pre-1986 in NV, I read can go for up to 50K apiece, he had 18 in the room and some at home, too.  

~~~Another thing I noticed about Paddock is back when "slip and fall" claims were abundant in some Vegas casinos and hotels, he claimed this kind of injury. For awhile, cameras were not placed in a lot of out of the way or little used corridors, until thieves-at-heart began to catch on.

I actually saw  CCTV footage where a man, alone in a small corridor looked all around, saw no one, then sat down, then lay down and began moaning as if he fell. Fell over what, anyway? It doesn't matter, casinos paid off  smaller amounts in some thousands in order to settle out of court.

I do not know how Paddock's "slip & fall" claim resulted.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 3, 2017)

BobF said:


> Not sure what the Swiss have done but do know they must teach some basics about trust and how to earn it.   They do put guns in the hands of children at early ages.   This is an example of how they teach them how and why to have weapons.   Come of adult age they are for some years considered to be part of their standby army.   When all folks know what the weapons can do and why they are kept at home, then much of this confusion about the US wanting guns at home and wanting most of us to remain as loyal military capable folks, even when no longer of military age.   We should follow what the Swiss have done for so many hundreds of years.
> 
> It is not the guns that is the problem ever.    It is the untrained and  undisciplined people that are the main problem.   A loaded gun on the table is no threat to anyone till some untrained or twisted minded on picks it up from the table and start pointing and pulling the trigger.



Bob, you have a good point-


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> Why is it that the Swiss are armed to the teeth yet don't shoot each other like we do?
> 
> Is it the guns or is there something wrong with our society? With us?
> 
> ...



I hesitate to answer but I do think that many in the US do love violence if the movies are anything to go by. Even, or especially old cowboy movies have sound tracks with lots of gunshots. I used not to notice but lately I think that there must be some sort of addiction to the adrenalin rush of gunfire and explosions. I think it is worse now thanks to special effects.


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 3, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I hesitate to answer but I do think that many in the US do love violence if the movies are anything to go by. Even, or especially old cowboy movies have sound tracks with lots of gunshots. I used not to notice but lately I think that there must be some sort of addiction to the adrenalin rush of gunfire and explosions. I think it is worse now thanks to special effects.



I think that you're getting closer to the root of the problem, it's more of a *cultural *issue, rather than "gun control" related.   I think that's why the gun control measures implemented in Australia work, but would not work in America.  

 Same could be said for the example of Switzerland.

There are less unifying threads running through U.S. society, than say, Switzerland or Australia's,Maybe?  

America's success at attaining_ ultimate_ individual freedom may be it's _ultimate_ downfall. 

At this rate, in 20 years America will either cease to exist, or it will resemble East Germany of the 1960s.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 3, 2017)

Warrigall: Your quote.



> Guns rarely kill people - bullets do.



What? If you don't think guns kill people you are missing the point.  That's fallacious.  

I hope you didn't teach that in school.  That's rifle club mottos.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 3, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> That's  heartening. We have many "trust" farm stands for produce here too. Doesn't help with the matter at hand unless the message is "trust your fellow man not to shoot you in the head" which, if that IS the message, doesn't seem to exist here a great deal. Can only wish.
> 
> Thanks, I subscribed to the YT site.


No, my post has nothing to do with shooting.  I wished to illustrate that in Switzerland it's common to assume honesty and civilized conduct.  Both of these traits are sorely lacking in this and most other countries.  To put it a different way: the Swiss are civilized.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Oct 3, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> That's  heartening. We have many "trust" farm stands for produce here too. Doesn't help with the matter at hand unless the message is "trust your fellow man not to shoot you in the head" which, if that IS the message, doesn't seem to exist here a great deal. Can only wish.
> 
> ~~~Another thing I noticed about Paddock is back when "slip and fall" claims were abundant in some Vegas casinos and hotels, he claimed this kind of injury. For awhile, cameras were not placed in a lot of out of the way or little used corridors, until thieves-at-heart began to catch on.
> 
> I do not know how Paddock's "slip & fall" claim resulted.



I saw videotape of Paddock's slip and fall from several different angles today. It was obvious he took a very bad fall. One camera angle clearly shows him doing the splits, which must have resulted in some injury.

His case went to arbitration and was dismissed as having no merit. I wonder if, at least in part, that's what set him off.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Warrigal: Your quote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Respectfully, Camper, it is you who is missing the point. My reference to bullets killing rather than guns was an entrée suggestion that if guns could not be restricted, then maybe the answer is to restrict ammunition.

 I'm beginning to think that you read posts not with the intention of understanding the content but of searching the content for some little thing that you can start an argument about.

 I suggest you think deeply about the lock/hinge analogy to understand why I included those words.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 3, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Respectfully, Camper, it is you who is missing the point. My reference to bullets killing rather than guns was an entrée a suggestion that if guns could not be restricted, then maybe the answer is to restrict ammunition.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that you read posts not with the intention of understanding the content but of searching the content for some little thing that you can start an argument about.
> 
> I suggest you think deeply about the lock/hinge analogy to understand why I included those words.



Respectfully they do restrict ammunition but not in all states. See you just have to go to another state to get them.

And then there is the reloading.  You can pack your own bullets.  

I suggest you are the one who made the statement and it's fallacious.  What you are saying then is that you can't stop the sale of guns but you can stop the sale of ammunition?  

What is really required is Federal Laws in the U.S. not state laws and that's never going to happen because of the Constitution.

And how are you going to stop the manufacture of bullets in Canada right next door? Or even Mexico.

When I was working we put in a bid to supply 2 million bullets to the U.S. Army.  

And guns seized at the Canadian border.?  The Customs in Canada auctioned them off and you could bid on them.  We lowballed and won some bids on rifles, not revolvers.

Guns, ammunition, etc. are a global market.  It only takes one guy like this one with money.


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 4, 2017)

Personally, I suspect this man had serious mental health issues. He was at least a verbal abuser of his girl friend (maybe a physical abuser behind closed doors) This country has a terrible record when it comes to caring for the mentally ill. His brother was shocked, but said he's had little contact with the shooter for 10 years, so he wouldn't have known about subtle personality and mental deterioration and some are quite good at pretending normalcy for short periods.
As for guns, blaming them makes about as much sense as blaming the auto that kills someone in the course of an accident. Do we ban all cars? No one needs an automatic rifle for hunting  - or anything else. but rifles and pistols can be used for a variety of legal activities. I am a gun owner and have been for many years. The only thing I have ever "killed" were targets. I don't hunt - don't even like the idea of hurting a fellow creature. Unfortunately we do have a past history laced with violence and there has been an increased acceptance of violence in recent months as a means of dealing with a variety of issues


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2017)

My thoughts in blue.



Camper6 said:


> Respectfully they do restrict ammunition but not in all states. See you just have to go to another state to get them.
> Then here is a starting point. Encourage the states to adopt uniform reasonable restrictions. A really good leader might be able to do this. John Howard managed it and he was certainly not charismatic.
> 
> And then there is the reloading.  You can pack your own bullets. ??? This is over my head.
> ...


----------



## chic (Oct 4, 2017)

Dragonlady said:


> Personally, I suspect this man had serious mental health issues. He was
> 
> at least a verbal abuser of his girl friend (maybe a physical abuser behind closed doors) This country has a terrible record when it comes to caring for the mentally ill. His brother was shocked, but said he's had little contact with the shooter for 10 years, so he wouldn't have known about subtle personality and mental deterioration and some are quite good at pretending normalcy for short periods.
> As for guns, blaming them makes about as much sense as blaming the auto that kills someone in the course of an accident. Do we ban all cars? No one needs an automatic rifle for hunting  - or anything else. but rifles and pistols can be used for a variety of legal activities. I am a gun owner and have been for many years. The only thing I have ever "killed" were targets. I don't hunt - don't even like the idea of hurting a fellow creature. Unfortunately we do have a past history laced with violence and there has been an increased acceptance of violence in recent months as a means of dealing with a variety of issues



I agree. I know others will disagree and wish to ban all guns, but I think not allowing civilians to purchase rapid repeating assault weapons could be solution to this problem? The only reason for a civilian to purchase such a weapon would be to harm others, I think.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 4, 2017)

chic said:


> I agree. I know others will disagree and wish to ban all guns, but I think not allowing civilians to purchase rapid repeating assault weapons could be solution to this problem? The only reason for a civilian to purchase such a weapon would be to harm others, I think.


It's sometimes necessary to harm others in order to protect self, family, and country.


----------



## dpwspringer (Oct 4, 2017)

Don M. said:


> Early reports are indicating that this shooter modified his weapons to fire virtually automatic.  Last night I looked up the info on a couple of these after market modifications...Bump Fire, and Slide Fire...and it appears that for a couple hundred dollars, and a few minutes work, an AR-15 or AK-47 can be modified to fire as many as 800 rounds per minute.  Now, I am generally an advocate for maintaining the 2nd Amendment, but I see NO reason why such devices should be readily available to the general public.  Interestingly enough, this morning, those manufacturers web sites seem to be down....but here are some examples of these modifications being sold today.
> 
> http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=bump+fire



It is easy to see why those web sites seem to be down... like cockroaches they are scurring for cover after the lights have been switched on. They have to be afraid of lawsuits and/or targeted legislation. They are likely out of that business.


----------



## dpwspringer (Oct 4, 2017)

With that cache of guns and ammo and two windows shot from... are we sure he acted alone... or that he wasn't expecting others to join him? 

We will have to wait for the investigation to play out and see what they can make of it. It is probably best to ignore all the speculative news reports for the most part.


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 4, 2017)

My first thought was, didn't anyone_ at all_ see him bringing all those rifles into the hotel???    


 Video security is quite heavy in LV, surely there was a glimpse of 'something' out of the ordinary....


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 4, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> My thoughts in blue.


You are a school teacher .  As such it's your way or the highway.  That's been my experience anyway.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 4, 2017)

Oh Puleeze!


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 4, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> My first thought was, didn't anyone_ at all_ see him bringing all those rifles into the hotel???
> 
> 
> Video security is quite heavy in LV, surely there was a glimpse of 'something' out of the ordinary....



Not really. Luggage is normal stuff. Once you check in who bothers with you again.?


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2017)

chic said:


> I agree. I know others will disagree and wish to ban all guns, but I think not allowing civilians to purchase rapid repeating assault weapons could be solution to this problem? The only reason for a civilian to purchase such a weapon would be to harm others, I think.



There is no complete solution. All you can hope for is to make improvements i.e. less massacres and less lives lost.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 4, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> No, my post has nothing to do with shooting.  I wished to illustrate that in Switzerland it's common to assume honesty and civilized conduct.  Both of these traits are sorely lacking in this and most other countries.  To put it a different way: the Swiss are civilized.



Oh, I see what you mean, thanks.


----------



## BobF (Oct 4, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> No, my post has nothing to do with shooting.  I wished to illustrate that in Switzerland it's common to assume honesty and civilized conduct.  Both of these traits are sorely lacking in this and most other countries.  To put it a different way: the Swiss are civilized.



And why were discipline by teachers taken from the US schools from grades to universities.    Why are we no longer allowed to make sure the kids do get trained in discipline and fairness as they once were.   Should we just end our public school system and make it all private and away from the minds of the no discipline folks.


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 4, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I saw videotape of Paddock's slip and fall from several different angles today. It was obvious he took a very bad fall. One camera angle clearly shows him doing the splits, which must have resulted in some injury.
> 
> His case went to arbitration and was dismissed as having no merit. I wonder if, at least in part, that's what set him off.



Thanks Jane, you saw it and it was real. How odd they felt his case had no merit unless there was no actual injury.


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2017)

As a side note, if you wish to understand why Australians (and perhaps other nationalities) will never understand America's obsession with guns, just read this short article and pay attention to the three graphics embedded in it. 

http://www.smh.com.au/world/heres-w...e-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 4, 2017)

So, people ask "why" did this guy do what he did.   It's been reported that:



> The father, Benjamin Paddock, was a convicted bank robber who was on the FBI's Most Wanted list in 1969 and described as a suicidal psychopath.



Might not have had such a _warm & fuzzy_ upbringing, or maybe he picked up some of his pappy's genes.

I can't help but recall the University of Texas tower shooting, where Charles Whitman shot and killed 15 people including one unborn child and injured 31 others.

Whether not not the brain tumor that Charles Whitman had played any role in precipitating his deadly shooting spree, is still a matter of contention.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Oct 4, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> Thanks Jane, you saw it and it was real. How odd they felt his case had no merit unless there was no actual injury.



The report I watched said he had been treated for injuries and there were medical expenses involved. It didn't go into any detail so I don't know anything beyond that.

The reason people dislike binding arbitration clauses in contracts is that arbitration is not a fair and open process. If you were suing a wealthy corporation that hired an arbitrator to judge your case, how much weight would automatically fall on the side of the company that is paying the arbitrator? There's enough prejudice against an individual suing a corporation in a regular court; arbitration is far worse.


----------



## Big Horn (Oct 4, 2017)

BobF said:


> And why were discipline by teachers taken from the US schools from grades to universities.    Why are we no longer allowed to make sure the kids do get trained in discipline and fairness as they once were.   Should we just end out public school system and make it all private and away from the minds of the no discipline folks.


That's my opinion.  Graduates of private schools and home schools simply receive a better education.  Requirements are far more demanding and teachers teach real academic material.  I attended private schools from grammar schools to university.  Discipline was never an issue because as soon as they were old enough, students were treated as adults and responded as adults.  Younger children were never exposed to classroom anarchy.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 4, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> That's my opinion.  Graduates of private schools and home schools simply receive a better education.  Requirements are far more demanding and teachers teach real academic material.  I attended private schools from grammar schools to university.  Discipline was never an issue because as soon as they were old enough, students were treated as adults and responded as adults.  Younger children were never exposed to classroom anarchy.



I tend to agree, though I don't want to sound like another old lady complaining about the younger generation.  There appears to be no discipline at all taught to children anymore, and the fault is as much in the home as in the schools.   I personally know three teachers who quit teaching because they were actually afraid of some of their students (and their parents).  I live fairly close to a middle school, and the language I hear when passing the schoolground would make the proverbial sailor blush. And we have younger and younger children committing worse and worse crimes.  Last week here a group of 12 and 13 year olds carjacked a woman and drove the car out of state because they wanted to run away together.  We have teenagers killing one another right and left.    Scary stuff.  There seems to be no respect for others, or empathy, or self-respect or any kind of discipline at all being taught to many children nowdays.


----------



## dpwspringer (Oct 5, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I tend to agree, though I don't want to sound like another old lady complaining about the younger generation.  There appears to be no discipline at all taught to children anymore, and the fault is as much in the home as in the schools.   I personally know three teachers who quit teaching because they were actually afraid of some of their students (and their parents).  I live fairly close to a middle school, and the language I hear when passing the schoolground would make the proverbial sailor blush. And we have younger and younger children committing worse and worse crimes.  Last week here a group of 12 and 13 year olds carjacked a woman and drove the car out of state because they wanted to run away together.  We have teenagers killing one another right and left.    Scary stuff.  There seems to be no respect for others, or empathy, or self-respect or any kind of discipline at all being taught to many children nowdays.



I see the same thing. Life is a whole different now that everything is more liberal and not as restrictive as back in the day. I think it goes back to freedom versus security/restrictions... or how ever you want to phrase things. Remember the censorship on over-the-air tv broadcast where a man and a woman could not be on the same bed without at least one foot on the floor? When I grew up it was like sex didn't exist and was why Heffner and his Playboy magazine was like some kind of A-bomb in the reactions it got.


----------



## BobF (Oct 5, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I wondered the same thing, but maybe it's because he can't claim he was economically oppressed by any group or faction. So far we've been told he was a lone wolf and not affiliated with any political group, and that he was wealthy. He doesn't seem to fit any of the demographics we usually expect for terrorists. These lone shooters are scary because they are so unexpected and unpredictable.
> 
> The photos I saw of the place where he lived didn't look like a retirement village, not any that I've ever known. He lived in an individual home and it looked like all of his neighbors did too. It actually looked like a regular neighborhood.
> 
> His brother said when he helped him move in, he had maybe one or two long rifles, not that arsenal he took to the city.



Retirement villages are of many types.   They are for those wanting a retired lifestyle and most that I have looked into required the owner to be at least 45 years old in order to buy in.   It was looking for a more adult life style and fewer children allowed.

The least expensive were made of trailer homes and clustered into neighborhoods and with many other buildings also for crafts, hobbies, dances and meetings.   I also looked into some where there were condo's or homes to purchase.   The one that claimed he owned a retirement home looked like the more costly ones with private land about the house and likely also included a golf coarse and other public buildings like restaurants, hair, fitness areas, libraries.   

All the ones I saw were in Arizona near Phoenix, Casa Grande, Tucson.

 As we get older we end up in senior care places, but not retirement towns.


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## BobF (Oct 5, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> As a side note, if you wish to understand why Australians (and perhaps other nationalities) will never understand America's obsession with guns, just read this short article and pay attention to the three graphics embedded in it.
> 
> http://www.smh.com.au/world/heres-w...e-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html



Well, there is far too much emphasis by some from other countries on why the US acts as it does.   No consideration that most of those folks were always raised in monarchies and had no real way of doing things but the way the monarchs determined.

The US started out as one of those areas but soon they did come up with the 'Declaration of Independence' and the 'Constitution of the United States'.   Now we have a completely different way of leading the country by putting so much power in the hands of the people.   We also have much of the designed power in the states and not in the federal government.

We, the USA, is different than all the others and for reasons.   We should not be asked to revert to federal controlled everything and go backwards a few hundred years.

Guns is OK in places like Switzerland but not OK in the US?    What is the justification?    The lack of training of the young folks as they grow up?   The lack of training in our schools and universities?    Too much looking away by the folks and our police and jailers?    It should not take too long to re educate our people and bring real care and concern back into the lives of our young ones and return the nation back to one of sincerity, honesty, willingness to wear the uniforms and fight for the US.   Maybe a return of punishment of various forms would be good incentive for some to behave.   It is not the guns that is the problem.    It is the people and their ways of thinking only they are important and the rest 'just need taking care of'.

I don't know but I am sure disappointed by the way our US folks do not care at all about others rights or privileges.   Far too much of this hateful way of never sharing.    We have the makings of a much greater nation.   One where all are willing to work and never wanting to surrender to welfare.   We once were that way, why not again.


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## Camper6 (Oct 5, 2017)

> Well, there is far too much emphasis by some from other countries on why  the US acts as it does.   No consideration that most of those folks  were always raised in monarchies and had no real way of doing things but  the way the monarchs determined.



Well BobF I live next door in Canada and have family living in the U.S. so everything that happens in the U.S. is of interest.

Frankly we just are appalled at what is happening there with mass murders.  It's sad to watch.

Switzerland is a different story altogether.  My understanding is that military service in Switzerland is mandatory for all males of a certain age.  They have the choice of keeping their rifle at home after their tour of duty is over.

They are part of the militia of Switzerland.  They are on call.

Do you have a civilian militia in the United States.?  You have already stated you don't like government mandates.

I'm sorry Bob but I don't think you can teach morals.

I belong to another forum and if I said there what I said here I would be jumped on from all sides and called a troll and have no business commenting on the U.S. as a foreigner.  All that while touting the Freedom of Speech.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Oct 5, 2017)

I think the concept of _you're not the only one in the room with rights_ has to be taught before a kid goes to school. That's part of early childhood learning.

The guy who got upset because hot babes ignored him is the one who bothers me most. That has to be the epitome of _the world owes me_ attitude. His parents spent ridiculous amounts of money keeping him in luxury cars and the right wardrobe so on some level they must have agreed he was somehow entitled and that his narcissism was deserved.

Adam Lanza could not have been a surprise to those who knew him. That he chose an elementary school as his killing field is the unbelievable part but that was probably about making a statement (whatever depraved message that might have been) and knowing there was no one there to stop him.

Kids who are bullied or belittled in high school who bring guns to settle the score are no surprise. High school kids are brutal. It's a wonder it doesn't happen more often.

I wonder if we'll ever find out the inspiration behind this latest loser. I'm kind of doubting that will ever happen.


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## chic (Oct 6, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> So, people ask "why" did this guy do what he did.   It's been reported that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've thought of that same thing. There has been no autopsy report released to the public so I wonder if in killing himself he literally blew his own head off so we'll never know perhaps if he had a brain tumor??


----------



## BobF (Oct 6, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well BobF I live next door in Canada and have family living in the U.S. so everything that happens in the U.S. is of interest.
> 
> Frankly we just are appalled at what is happening there with mass murders.  It's sad to watch.
> 
> ...



Not sure where you are coming from as I considered my post to be answering a comment made by others.



> Switzerland is a different story altogether.  My understanding is that  military service in Switzerland is mandatory for all males of a certain  age.  They have the choice of keeping their rifle at home after their  tour of duty is over.



Until about the 1960's we also had a full draft for all services.   Fill by volunteers or get some draftee's for the job.   Then they changed to using only volunteers, which included national guard or reservist.   We still have the sign on and possible use of draft but it just has not been used for many years now.

To me that is best for the active military as they are all volunteers and willing.   But also unfair for the rest as there is no threat for drafting those not willing to volunteer.    Shortage of teaching how to do as told with no bitching or grumbling.   We do have women in the active military that do get to go into military areas and get shot at.   My daughter was one of those volunteers and did her year plus in Iraq shortly after the first assaults were ended.   When her 8 years enlistment ended she went back to civilian life style.

Hard to teach morals is true.   Best way is to have to live with morals but little of that going on these days in the US.   We have loosened up all of our laws on drugs, drinking, living styles.   We have old time crime groups re emerging in our political world and nothing done by courts to get them to settle down at all.   Criminals leading our political parties from inside and outside.   How can these groups have riots with the police, burn cars, trash out buildings, and use these protests to demonstrate against legally elected government officials and not get punished.   We have courts that are gutless and see no crimes.

The US has plenty of problems to work out.   And as long as we have people that do not care about the Constitution, our 'flag', the 'national anthem',
loyalties to their heritage or the country in general; we have plenty to work out yet.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 6, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  Are you familiar with Glasgow?
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html
> 
> http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-europe.html



This is from one of your quoted sources:



> The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
> ​



Canada has more than TWICE the number of violent crimes per 100k as the U.S.?

I highly doubt those figures.


----------



## Camper6 (Oct 6, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> This is from one of your quoted sources:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Statistics.?  Let's put it this way.  You count the entire population? Children? People in jail, etc. and come up with a number?

I have another way of doing it.

Count only the male population age 15 to 50. Then do a comparison.  Then you might have a significant meaningful number.


----------



## SifuPhil (Oct 6, 2017)

Massaging stats has always been a favorite activity for people trying to make a point, much more so now with the advent of the 'Net. 

... at least, that's what 20 out of 10 Americans think ...


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## Butterfly (Oct 6, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> *I think the concept of you're not the only one in the room with rights has to be taught before a kid goes to school. That's part of early childhood learning.*
> 
> The guy who got upset because hot babes ignored him is the one who bothers me most. That has to be the epitome of _the world owes me_ attitude. His parents spent ridiculous amounts of money keeping him in luxury cars and the right wardrobe so on some level they must have agreed he was somehow entitled and that his narcissism was deserved.
> 
> ...



I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with your "not the only one in the room with rights" statement.  I think it actually is the basis of having a "civilized" society.  

I got this message loud and clear from an early age, though not in those precise words.  It's a concept that needs to be taught again, loud and clear.  Another one that seems to have fallen through the cracks is "the universe does not revolve around you."  And, one of my mother's favorites, "who ever told you the world is fair?"


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with your "not the only one in the room with rights" statement.  I think it actually is the basis of having a "civilized" society.
> 
> I got this message loud and clear from an early age, though not in those precise words.  It's a concept that needs to be taught again, loud and clear.  Another one that seems to have fallen through the cracks is "the universe does not revolve around you."  And, one of my mother's favorites, "who ever told you the world is fair?"


"The universe does not revolve around you" is a good one. I remember something similar being said about a young woman along the lines of "She was in need of a Copernican revolution".

I instilled into my children that they were important but not more important than other people.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 6, 2017)

Charles Whitman had an important brain anomaly. The two hemispheres of his brain were not connected, not unheard of but quite rare. For a time researchers wondered if that led to his single act of violence, but they later determined it was not a cause.

He was probably more like the Vegas shooter than the others because no one who knew him expected him to do what he did. By all accounts, he was a pleasant, mild-mannered young man. Not sure the pleasant mild-mannered part applied to Stephen Paddock, but his girl friend is claiming he treated her well. There have been conflicting reports from people who saw him being verbally abusive to her, but that's all part of what will come out as the investigation continues.


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## Camper6 (Oct 6, 2017)

Here's the thinking now.

They are trying to find something wrong with Stephen Paddock because they cannot believe, he's just your average type of guy who just likes to collect guns.  

So there's no excuse for him to go on a shooting rampage.


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.

It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.

My mind is full of questions for which I can find no satisfactory answers. 

Why is it still legal to buy an unlimited number of guns? 
Why is there no national register to see who is amassing an arsenal? 
Why is the right to own a gun more important to the right to life? 
Why don't people want to talk about this very serious development that was not this bad just 50 years ago? 
Has it not occurred to anyone that in another 50 years things will be even worse.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.
> 
> It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.
> 
> ...



I don't know because the information hasn't been released so far, but it seems likely that some or most of those guns were not purchased legally. His brother and his girlfriend both said they didn't even know he had an arsenal. It's unfortunate, but there are gun sellers who, for a price, will sell you anything you want to buy. That covers your first two questions. Illegal gun sales are not recorded so no way to monitor them.

As for the third, right to life only refers to the unborn.

I think we all know this is a rapidly deteriorating situation that will only get worse. What we don't know is what to do about it.

As for the ultimate high, killing humans, that was the mentality in our local police department that brought in the Department of Justice who are now overseeing police hiring, training and retraining programs. They're trying to weed out those who joined the force to kill people. I've pretty much heard everything but I was shocked a few years ago when a group of my male hospital co-workers were talking about the son of one of the doctors graduating from the Police Academy. Proud papa said Junior could not wait to make his first kill. When my jaw dropped, the guys all told me that was the only reason anyone would want to join the police force. Fast-forward a few years and the DOJ finally noticed how many of the city's most vulnerable, i.e. the homeless, were being killed routinely by police officers. Heck, one of our finest was shot several times by another police officer while he sat in the front seat of a police car, so it definitely wasn't a case of mistaken identity. The cop survived, but true to the police department's tradition of transparency, the reason for the shooting was never made public who ultimately foot the bill for that mess. Everyone I know figured there was a wife or girlfriend involved but it got hushed up muy pronto.

You can't ask killers to monitor killers and not expect mayhem to ensue.


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> You can't ask killers to monitor killers and not expect mayhem to ensue.


I was thinking of "_Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". _Is this just meaningless rhetoric?

I am horrified by the last part of your post. I do not believe that attitude is rife in the NSW Police Force. At least, I hope not.


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## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Here's the thinking now.
> 
> They are trying to find something wrong with Stephen Paddock because they cannot believe, he's just your average type of guy who just likes to collect guns.
> 
> So there's no excuse for him to go on a shooting rampage.


Some people like to kill. For them, it is the ultimate expression of power.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 7, 2017)

My heart goes out to all those affected by this terrible happening, RIP to all the poor souls who died. 
Another massacre behind you America, now we wait for the next. When will you learn? How many more of your innocent men, women and children must die before you stand tall and say enough is enough?


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## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I agree with Camper. There is a certain desperation in the search for a reason for this and other massacres that is not a function of virtual unlimited access to as many high powered guns as the perp can afford. Any collector could be another Paddock waiting in the wings.
> 
> It appears that there are some people for whom the ultimate high is hunting human beings. Some do it in a forest, or the Australian outback and, with increasing frequency, some do it is a crowded public place where targets are plentiful.
> 
> ...


Can it get much worse?


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## Sunny (Oct 7, 2017)

I wonder if the NRA is having its own internal debate right now. People are so horrified, terrified, grief-stricken, etc., that it's hard to believe that organization will just continue with business as usual. Are they really happy seeing this kind of insane slaughter?

I think there is a small ray of hope; they actually came out against that gizmo, I think called a stock, that boosts an ordinary gun into an assault weapon. (I know very little about guns, so I may be getting the details wrong.) We can only hope that saner heads will prevail.If not, it will become a hated terrorist organization.


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## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

Sunny said:


> I wonder if the NRA is having its own internal debate right now. People are so horrified, terrified, grief-stricken, etc., that it's hard to believe that organization will just continue with business as usual. Are they really happy seeing this kind of insane slaughter?
> 
> I think there is a small ray of hope; they actually came out against that gizmo, I think called a stock, that boosts an ordinary gun into an assault weapon. (I know very little about guns, so I may be getting the details wrong.) We can only hope that saner heads will prevail.If not, it will become a hated terrorist organization.



The semi-automatic rifle fires every time you pull the trigger.
The automatic rifle fires continuously by holding the trigger down.
The bump stock augments the the trigger pull in the semi-automatic so it imitates the automatic rifle.  It's an add on.

But.  The semi-automatic can do a lot of damage by itself and that's what was used in the previous mass murders.

The NRA is passing the buck. They haven't come out fully against it.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 7, 2017)

The National Rifle Association made its first comments about the Las Vegas massacre on Thursday night when its chief lobbyist, Chris W. Cox, spoke to Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson on his prime time program. *Cox said that the best way to keep people safe from mass shootings like the one that took place in Las Vegas on Sunday night was to loosen, not strengthen, gun laws.
*
I'm sorry US, but in my humble opinion, as long as you have this sort of thinking at the top, it's just a case of sit back and wait for the next massacre to moan and weep about, for there surely will be one!


----------



## NancyNGA (Oct 7, 2017)

With the NRA just follow the money $$$$$.   My father was a long time member of the NRA until he saw pictures of the fancy headquarters they built in Maryland.   He dropped membership, but they bugged him with propaganda literature the rest of his life.


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## exwisehe (Oct 7, 2017)

Sen. Feinstein introduced the first bill Wednesday to outlaw bump stocks and other devices for rapid fire of semi-automatic weapons. The bill, dubbed the Automatic Gun Fire Prevention Act, had 24 co-sponsors from the Senate Democratic Conference.

The bill would ban any adaption that increases a legal weapon’s rate of fire.

Of course, the media talk of this ban will cause gun owners to flock to stores to stock up (no pun intended) on these “bump stocks” while they can get them. This bill will make such devices unlawful and I believe it will pass, even if the NRA objects. Surely common sense will prevail and all of us will support it even if it remains to be seen if it helps any. But surely if lawmakers, police force, military personnel all are in favor of it, why not support it, notwithstanding the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] amendment, as probably all (or most) of us support.

Also, why not support background checks, passing safety courses, and getting a license - once you have done all that, have retesting at set periods. A firearm is just as deadly as a car, which you have to learn to use in all states by a test. Couldn’t we treat firearms the same?  And I’m aware of the argument that if good people who have no desire to use the weapon the wrong way, then only criminals will obtain them and use them the wrong way.  I’m tired of hearing that argument.

Also, it may not have made any difference in 948 casualties (includes the LV tragedy) in mass shootings since Whitman climbed a 27-story tower at the U. of Texas and killed 16 people before police shot him to death. (mass shooting defined to be those such as 131 events so far, in which 4+ people were killed by a lone shooter) But something has got to be done, and this is a start. 

Don't you think so?


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## Jackie22 (Oct 7, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> The National Rifle Association made its first comments about the Las Vegas massacre on Thursday night when its chief lobbyist, Chris W. Cox, spoke to Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson on his prime time program. *Cox said that the best way to keep people safe from mass shootings like the one that took place in Las Vegas on Sunday night was to loosen, not strengthen, gun laws.
> 
> 
> *
> I'm sorry US, but in my humble opinion, as long as you have this sort of thinking at the top, it's just a case of sit back and wait for the next massacre to moan and weep about, for there surely will be one!



Sad, but true.


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## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

exwisehe said:


> Sen. Feinstein introduced the first bill Wednesday to outlaw bump stocks and other devices for rapid fire of semi-automatic weapons. The bill, dubbed the Automatic Gun Fire Prevention Act, had 24 co-sponsors from the Senate Democratic Conference.
> 
> The bill would ban any adaption that increases a legal weapon’s rate of fire.
> 
> ...



I really don't get all this safety training stuff.  In Canada you have to take the training course to get a gun license.  However, the ones that are getting the training are not the ones that cause the damage.

I think a lot of it is brain damage.


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2017)

NRA has been against the stock item since the awareness of what happened in Las Vegas.   If part of the Congress is going to start a movement then it should be from both sides if to have any real meaning.


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## chic (Oct 7, 2017)

MA legislators are passing a law to outlaw bump stocks which is a small start, but at least it's something.


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## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

chic said:


> MA legislators are passing a law to outlaw bump stocks which is a small start, but at least it's something.



They outlaw the bump stocks and something else will be introduced.  I'm hearing a glove that will pull the trigger.  It's that insatiable demand for more power.


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## CeeCee (Oct 7, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> They outlaw the bump stocks and something else will be introduced.  I'm hearing a glove that will pull the trigger.  It's that insatiable demand for more power.




Ive heard that almost anybody can make one and also that most don't even care about them because they make the guns less accurate.

Only useful in a situation like the one in Vegas.


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## Ruthanne (Oct 7, 2017)

I watched this special on CNN yesterday.


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## Camper6 (Oct 7, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> I watched this special on CNN yesterday.



Can you give us a  summary. My hearing is bad and my computer is old and terribly slow on videos.


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## Ruthanne (Oct 7, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Can you give us a  summary. My hearing is bad and my computer is old and terribly slow on videos.


Sorry but it is a memorial piece about each one of the victims.  Their families made comments about them.  Apparently they were all very very nice people who wouldn't hurt a soul.  I can't recall all 58 of the comments but that is the gist of it.


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## dpwspringer (Oct 8, 2017)

I don't in my current situation but some people actually have a good reason/need to have a gun (but none of them should have a fully automatic weapon). I don't begrudge them for having a gun. Some people also have a need for a heavy duty box/moving truck and I don't begrudge them either... until they misuse it, especially the ones that have used them to run down people in an act of terrorism. We don't condemn trucks when they are misused by terrorists because we recognize there is a need for trucks and the truck itself wasn't the problem, only the tool.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 8, 2017)

"some people actually have a good reason/need to have a gun"? Who? What good reason? The police, maybe, the military, of course, but why everybody else? Because every body else has one, it's a vicious circle! Over the centuries the US have created a culture of fear, where everybody thinks they need a gun because everybody else has one. If nobody had one, nobody would need one. To own one based on the outdated 2nd. Amendment is just ridiculous IMO. We're talking 1791 for heavens sake, when civil war was rife between states and people had to defend themselves and the state/county. "*A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

*


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## Camper6 (Oct 8, 2017)

One of the neighbors of Paddock in Mesquite Nevada was being interviewed.

He had guns as well.

When asked why he needed guns, his answer was.

*It's in our culture.*


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 8, 2017)

What more can one say! I rest my case - sadly!


----------



## RadishRose (Oct 8, 2017)




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## Camper6 (Oct 8, 2017)

So what do you have to say about that?


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 8, 2017)

Sad!


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## SifuPhil (Oct 8, 2017)

I _had_ a Tommy Burst! 

But it's okay - I only used it for playing "War".


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## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2017)

Eek.


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

The gun owners say they need a gun to protect themselves from home invasions, etc.

What happens though is a lot of the home owners guns are stolen and used by criminals.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 9, 2017)

Why are they not forced to have secure storage for their guns? Here, even for a shotgun you have to show the police that you have two separate, secure storage for the gun and for the ammunition. They must not be kept together and ideally the amo storage is hidden, under the floor or similar. And that's just for a shotgun. There is no way one can get a licence for a military type gun or pistol of any kind unless you are a member of a shooting club and then the guns have to be kept at the club, not at home.
I wonder why so many people think their home will be "invaded"?? By whom?


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## dpwspringer (Oct 9, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> "some people actually have a good reason/need to have a gun"? Who? What good reason? The police, maybe, the military, of course, but why everybody else? Because every body else has one, it's a vicious circle! Over the centuries the US have created a culture of fear, where everybody thinks they need a gun because everybody else has one. If nobody had one, nobody would need one. To own one based on the outdated 2nd. Amendment is just ridiculous IMO. We're talking 1791 for heavens sake, when civil war was rife between states and people had to defend themselves and the state/county. "*A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> 
> *


Are you seriously asking why someone would have a good reason/need to have a gun? Literally I am shocked at that question and figure it wouldn't do any good to answer you anyway since you proceeded to answer for me and then mock the ridiculous answer "you used for me". Normally I don't waste my time dealing with kind of foolishness because it is almost always a waste of time trying to deal with folks of that mind set. But I'll try to ignore that and ask if you have ever considered what small business owners that deal with cash have to worry about for one. I'll give you a clue, often they are struggling to make ends meet and can't afford to pay for security guards, etc and not only have to worry about being held up inside their business but also have to worry about getting from their business with that cash to a bank or deposit box.


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

I live in Canada.  I have a gun but it's a gas powered pellet gun.  It looks like a Luger.  Holds 50 shots.  Might be a deterrent.  I don't know.  Haven't had to use it once.  But I like target shooting.

If I lived in the U.S. I would definitely be a gun owner.  A handgun.  Too many others around packing them to be comfortable without one.

The argument though seems to be around guns like the AR-15 which is the source of mass shootings.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> I wonder why so many people think their home will be "invaded"?? By whom?



Please tell me you're joking and that you're not a troll. In the U.S., people's homes are being invaded by gangs of armed thugs. After they kick in windows or doors to gain access, they take anything of value, often beating the owners of the properties (knowing the police won't investigate as thoroughly if they don't kill). They prey on the elderly and others who can't defend themselves.

We have no idea where you live, so any reference you make to "here" means absolutely nothing. Your avatar is the St. George flag, so an assumption could be made that you're English. That's only an assumption. Why would you pretend to expertise on anything happening in the U.S. when it's obvious you don't have the most basic clue?


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Please tell me you're joking and that you're not a troll. In the U.S., people's homes are being invaded by gangs of armed thugs. After they kick in windows or doors to gain access, they take anything of value, often beating the owners of the properties (knowing the police won't investigate as thoroughly if they don't kill). They prey on the elderly and others who can't defend themselves.
> 
> We have no idea where you live, so any reference you make to "here" means absolutely nothing. Your avatar is the St. George flag, so an assumption could be made that you're English. That's only an assumption. Why would you pretend to expertise on anything happening in the U.S. when it's obvious you don't have the most basic clue?



I get the same argument that I don't live there so I don't know what I am talking about.

However, this is an international forum and is open to all comments.

And in my case.  I live in Canada.  We get all the news from the U.S. on our cable. I have family living there.  And I do have a clue. 

As far as home invasions go.?  Smart thieves wait till no one is home. And they steal the weapons.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 9, 2017)

Yes I am in England, thank goodness Smiling Jane.
The picture you paint of life in the US is horrific! I do not pretend to anything, I just read the papers and listen to the tragic news almost daily from the US.
When I read that there are 12,000 gun homicides every year in the US, I despair.
How much longer are the American people going to put up with this slaughter? How many more have to die? I just don't understand how you can all live with this.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

In all of the recent home invasions in my area, the elderly victims were at home when the invasions took place. When you prey on the elderly, they're likely to be home except for errands and appointments. The perpetrators know the best time to invade a home is between shift changes at the police department. From about 10:00 to 11:00 p.m., chaos reigns. The thieves aren't only there to steal people's possessions, they take cash, jewelry and credit cards, those things people are likely to have in their possession when they go out.

You might want to go back and read the post by Cap'n Mike that I objected to. He questioned the existence of home invasions, which led me to believe he's clueless. Just because such a phenomenon does not occur where you live, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I have never questioned your right to post or your knowledge about subject matter, so leave me out of the group against whom you feel required to defend yourself.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 9, 2017)

Eh? I don't follow you? I have never questioned your obvious knowledge of what goes on in your area, why should I, I am just horrified by it all and I have certainly never questioned your right to post either! Where do you get that from???
 Jeeees, I though this was a friendly forum, guess I was wrong. Keep smiling Jane!


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## Shalimar (Oct 9, 2017)

As a Canuck, I can understand why people from other countries are sometimes puzzled by certain aspects of American culture. Perhaps we view bearing arms in a different light, and many of us don't understand the escalating level of violence and mass 

shootings that occur. I don't believe that makes us clueless, but we have different culture norms, and many of us worry about the good people of America. I certainly do. I think I understand Cap'n Mike's point of view, and I don't believe for a moment he is a troll. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding?


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 9, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Eh? I don't follow you? I have never questioned your obvious knowledge of what goes on in your area, why should I, I am just horrified by it all and I have certainly never questioned your right to post either! Where do you get that from???
> Jeeees, I though this was a friendly forum, guess I was wrong. Keep smiling Jane!



I understand the point that you were trying to make and I tend to agree.  It reminds me of the Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss, if you have a gun, I need a bigger gun, and so it goes.








We have home invasions from time to time but I have never heard of a case, in my area, where the people did not know each other or have some sort of criminal enterprise in common.  Last night we had four shootings in my city all within five miles of my apartment and all involving people who knew each other.  I still do not feel that owning a gun would make me safer or offer any real protection.  I put my faith in good locks and a very low key lifestyle.

I support the constitutional right of Americans to own and bear arms with some exceptions and controls, the old slippery slope.

Stick around and get to know us a little better before you write us off.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 9, 2017)

Hey Shalimar, Aunt Bea. Thanks. The good citizens of the US must realise that it is a very foreign culture to anybody who wasn't borne and bred American. I just find it heartbreaking to continually read about innocent people getting killed for usually, no good reason. Yes we've had the occasional nut case with suicide bombs but very few and far between thank goodness. We get stabbings now and then and of course the latest terror tactic is to drive a vehicle onto the pavement and try to kill people.


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## Don M. (Oct 9, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Why are they not forced to have secure storage for their guns? Here, even for a shotgun you have to show the police that you have two separate, secure storage for the gun and for the ammunition. They must not be kept together and ideally the amo storage is hidden, under the floor or similar. And that's just for a shotgun. There is no way one can get a licence for a military type gun or pistol of any kind unless you are a member of a shooting club and then the guns have to be kept at the club, not at home.  wonder why so many people think their home will be "invaded"?? By whom?



Mike...There is increasingly TWO America's.  One is fairly safe and stable, with a low amount of crime...and that is the majority.  Then, there is the Other America...mostly located in and around the inner cities, where the Real Authority is the Street and Drug gangs.  It is a rare day when there aren't shootings and murders reported in those areas.  The honest people living in those areas have to constantly fear being mugged or robbed by the scumbags who will go to any lengths to support their illegal drug addictions.  Then, there are incidents such as this recent Las Vegas slaughter that makes absolutely no sense....even after a week, the police have no idea what set this lunatic off.  

It's easy to blame guns for this havoc, but the real reasons go far beyond just guns.  We have millions of people who are unemployed, or underemployed, and many millions who believe that the world owes them a living.  We have Latino drug gangs such as MS-13 that totally rule their "jurisdictions", and the people who live there are scared to even talk to the police, for fear that they will be murdered for doing so.  

Guns are the "tool of choice" for these thugs, but the vast majority of gun owners will never use their weapons in an illegal manner.  Millions of us love to hunt, and that is the only time our weapons see any use.  The area we live in is very rural, and it is the rare household that Does Not have firearms....but the Only murder that has taken place within 50 miles of us, over the past 15 years, was when some lady shot her abusive husband...and the jury ruled it justified.  If any of this Inner City Trash ever tried to come into this area and cause problems, they would be committing suicide.  

If you are from England, you have no idea of what it would be like to live in some of our cities.  England, after all, is almost 95% of European ethnicity, populated by people who have centuries of civility to draw upon.  Perhaps, if England, and Europe continues to invite millions of Middle East refugees into it's midst, you may someday gain an understanding of what it is like to have a major share of your population which does Not share your values.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 9, 2017)

Many thanks Don M, most informative. 
This is what I was hoping to get from the forum, a better understanding of just what the hell is going on in the world from the people who live there.
We are definitely somewhat cocooned in the UK and can only go by what we read, and of course that will always be the bad stuff, good stuff isn't news!


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

Don M. said:


> Mike...There is increasingly TWO America's.  One is fairly safe and stable, with a low amount of crime...and that is the majority.  Then, there is the Other America...mostly located in and around the inner cities, where the Real Authority is the Street and Drug gangs.  It is a rare day when there aren't shootings and murders reported in those areas.  The honest people living in those areas have to constantly fear being mugged or robbed by the scumbags who will go to any lengths to support their illegal drug addictions.



I live in Albuquerque, a city that because of its proximity to Los Angeles, has for a long time been inundated with a series of increasingly violent LA street gangs. Because of our proximity to Mexico and its drug cartels, this city has become a hub for illegal drugs. I don't live in the inner city, but you don't have to be an inner-city dweller to be a victim of either kind of gang violence. These groups prey on any vulnerable group of people. We have lots of vulnerable people, partly because many people choose to retire here.

Another factor is meth, which has created enormous problems for those who live in this city. 

When the freeway system was created, it was seen as a good thing with no drawbacks. I see it as a major drawback because it allows easy access to those areas that are being targeted by the gangs. Not only does it provide criminals with access, it makes it much easier for them to evade the police after their crimes. All they have to do is steal a car and they can go anywhere they want without little threat of detection, then they ditch the stolen car when they're finished with it.

Now that it is becoming more difficult for people to get prescription opioids, I can only imagine the repercussions we'll see from people stealing to keep their opioid addictions going.


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

I post on another forum. All politics. I find out that the gun owners don't want to be told about any problems arising from guns.

They get very defensive and abusive. Even on this forum the political forum has been dropped.

what can I say. If you are happy with your system keep on trucking.

I just don't understand how you put up with it. My family lives there so I'm keenly interested in developments.

if I lived in the U.S. I would definitely have a gun to protect myself.

Frontier mentality. If I said that on the other forum I belong to I would be raked over the coals.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I post on another forum. All politics. I find out that the gun owners don't want to be told about any problems arising from guns.
> 
> They get very defensive and abusive. Even on this forum the political forum has been dropped.
> 
> ...



Please provide specific instructions to change our system.

Much obliged.


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## Big Horn (Oct 9, 2017)

I do not understand what makes gun violence so bad, but violence with knives, clubs, fists, etc. is so civilized.  Yes, I posted this link earlier.  They just said that it couldn't be true—but it is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html


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## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2017)

We have home invasions in Sydney from time to time but mostly the homes are not chosen at random. Elderly people often make the mistake of keeping a lot of cash at home and are sometimes indiscreet about who they tell about it. Also when a woman has a lot of expensive jewellery the home is more likely to be a target. Otherwise, most of the home invasions that occur are gang related, at both ends. The same for drive by shooting at houses. There are gang members inside the house and inside the car.

I was once waiting to be empanelled in a jury for a home invasion case (but my number was not called out). The victims were two young women. The perp held them up with a replica gun, stole money and jewellery but did not harm them in any way. They were shocked and frightened, no doubt.

Reading the above, you can get an idea why I don't want a gun for self protection. The harm that could occur from having one in the house far outweighs the likelihood of my ever needing one.

I am not the only person who thinks this way.

This article in The Atlantic makes the same point.

https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...-the-irrational-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/

These paragraphs in particular make the point that deaths by gun, including suicides, far surpass homicides from home invasions.



> You mentioned the risk of home invasion, and the realistic fear that the cops just wouldn't get there in time. That's obviously a primeval motive to have a gun by the bedside or whatever.
> 
> But the fear is also easily out of proportion to the threat. I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious.
> 
> ...


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Please provide specific instructions to change our system.
> 
> Much obliged.



See what I mean.?


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

Warrigal, if you would like, I could post a string of articles about home invasions that apparently only exist in our minds. In browsing, I notice the local newspaper and TV stations don't report home invasions unless there are more exciting elements, like fatalities or SWAT stand-offs. Home invasions are apparently not dramatic enough to suit the commercial interests served by the media.

I hope you realize Chicago is over 1,000 miles away from where I live and NYC may as well be another country in terms of how different life is there. Both of those cities have a police presence that would be unheard of in most U.S. communities, and people in those cities live behind reinforced doors with multiple locks and windows covered with burglar bars. We didn't have to live like that until recently but the times they are a-changing.

I own a handgun and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I've won trophies for marksmanship so I'm not concerned about hitting my target. I'm not suicidal, my gun has a good trigger guard and there are no children in or around my home. I've been shot and I don't want to recreate that experience.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> See what I mean.?



I'm saying don't tell people to change their system without being willing to provide information to help us do it. Don't you think if we knew how, we would have done it before now?


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## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Please provide specific instructions to change our system.
> 
> Much obliged.



Only Americans can change the American system but first they must want to change it.

When people like me post on this topic we are merely attempting to say that it doesn't have to be this way. The number of unnecessary deaths from firearms could be lowered. We point to an obvious problem, back up by global statistics, that in US there are an extraordinary number of guns in civilian hands and a corresponding number of deaths by firearms, including military style weapons.

But to answer your challenge about providing instructions.

First, acknowledge that there is a problem, then start a national conversation about solving it in a way that Americans can live with. Apply these four steps. On the other hand, if the number of deaths annually is acceptable to Americans there is no problem so be happy that the US is world leader in yet another field. After all, think of how many jobs it generates.



> *In problem solving, there are four basic steps.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 9, 2017)

We've talked this to death. I honestly don't see any way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those who are wealthy enough to buy them on the black market. Who could have predicted this latest massacre? A lone gunman, armed to the teeth, with no history that would make him a person of interest? No way. This many days later the police still don't know why he did it, so how could it have been predicted?


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## Camper6 (Oct 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> We've talked this to death. I honestly don't see any way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those who are wealthy enough to buy them on the black market. Who could have predicted this latest massacre? A lone gunman, armed to the teeth, with no history that would make him a person of interest? No way. This many days later the police still don't know why he did it, so how could it have been predicted?



You are correct. He had a hidden life. You can't predict it but now that it has happened you can learn from it.

I'm sure there will be scrutiny in the future or steps taken of some sort to mitigate the chance of it happening again in a similar arena.

I'm pretty sure there will be marksmen posted to fire on anyone shooting from a height like this guy did. That's the only thing that could have stopped him.  He probably researched that as well.

I doubt anything will be done to prevent people from buying a semi automatic legally.  That's what was used in previous mass murders.


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## Butterfly (Oct 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> In all of the recent home invasions in my area, the elderly victims were at home when the invasions took place. When you prey on the elderly, they're likely to be home except for errands and appointments. The perpetrators know the best time to invade a home is between shift changes at the police department. From about 10:00 to 11:00 p.m., chaos reigns. The thieves aren't only there to steal people's possessions, they take cash, jewelry and credit cards, those things people are likely to have in their possession when they go out.
> 
> You might want to go back and read the post by Cap'n Mike that I objected to. He questioned the existence of home invasions, which led me to believe he's clueless. Just because such a phenomenon does not occur where you live, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> 
> I have never questioned your right to post or your knowledge about subject matter, so leave me out of the group against whom you feel required to defend yourself.



I agree with Jane.  I live in the same city and home invasions ARE a problem here -- one of the reasons I have a firearm.


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## Butterfly (Oct 9, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Hey Shalimar, Aunt Bea. Thanks. The good citizens of the US must realise that it is a very foreign culture to anybody who wasn't borne and bred American. I just find it heartbreaking to continually read about innocent people getting killed for usually, no good reason. Yes we've had the occasional nut case with suicide bombs but very few and far between thank goodness. We get stabbings now and then and of course the latest terror tactic is to drive a vehicle onto the pavement and try to kill people.



Don't forget the acid attacks I've read about lately.


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## Butterfly (Oct 9, 2017)

I've heard many opinions expressed that we need to just get the guns out of our culture, as if we could just so "OK, now, everybody turn in your firearms" and the problem would solve itself.  In the first place, I do not believe the law-abiding public would comply (I, for one, would not).  Secondly, in the unlikely scenario that law-abiding citizens would comply, does anyone REALLY think that the violent street gangs, drug dealers and assorted other members of the criminal world would just peaceably give up their weapons?  If you do, you are living in some kind of alternate reality wherein pigs fly.


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## chic (Oct 10, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Don't forget the acid attacks I've read about lately.



Yes, in Marseilles. And I thought the south of France would be safe.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 10, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I've heard many opinions expressed that we need to just get the guns out of our culture, as if we could just so "OK, now, everybody turn in your firearms" and the problem would solve itself.  In the first place, I do not believe the law-abiding public would comply (I, for one, would not).  Secondly, in the unlikely scenario that law-abiding citizens would comply, does anyone REALLY think that the violent street gangs, drug dealers and assorted other members of the criminal world would just peaceably give up their weapons?  If you do, you are living in some kind of alternate reality wherein pigs fly.



The phrase "sitting ducks" comes to mind. I didn't go out and buy a gun because I felt safe, and I'm not someone who is given to unreasonable fear. The home of an old couple very close to where I live was invaded and they were bludgeoned nearly to death before I decided I needed to protect myself. The attacks are so random, the police cannot possibly prevent the invasions from happening. I had an excellent protection dog (although I didn't realize he was a trained protection dog when I adopted him), but he died recently and I haven't replaced him. The gangs who are invading people's homes keep getting better and more efficient at what they do, and I don't believe a dog would help beyond sounding an alarm. One of the first things the invaders do is kill the family dog to get it out of their way. They beat the old people when they didn't find enough valuables, trying to get them to say where they hid their money.

It's easy to say get the guns out of our culture, but that doesn't take into account all of the years the bad guys and so-called gun enthusiasts have been stockpiling arsenals of assault rifles and other paraphernalia. Back in the 70s I knew a guy who was sure there was a race war coming. He owned hand grenades, actual machine guns and mortar. He was part of a group who were all armed to the teeth. Those weapons didn't poof and go away in the 40 years since then; they're still out there.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 10, 2017)

chic said:


> Yes, in Marseilles. And I thought the south of France would be safe.



I might have thought that before the attack in Nice.


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## Camper6 (Oct 10, 2017)

It has become a way of life.  They know exactly what is going to happen and when.  They won't be kept in jail.  Even in Canada now there are home invasions.

A bike? No matter what you do. They will steal it if they want it.

They know nothing will be done.  I have yet to see anyone charged with theft of a bike.  They get used to getting away with stuff and it becomes a way of life.  Buy nothing.  If you want something, steal it.  That's the way it is now.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 10, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You are correct. He had a hidden life. You can't predict it but now that it has happened you can learn from it.
> 
> I'm sure there will be scrutiny in the future or steps taken of some sort to mitigate the chance of it happening again in a similar arena.
> 
> ...



I see that possibility coming. I once flew to Venezuela back in the late 70s - my lady and I considering places to retire to early and cheaply - and was surprised to see armed militia all over the airport. I think about that every time one of these mass shootings occur. I envision armed militia, National Guard units, posted around our schools, shopping centers, sports arenas, etc, and our neighborhoods becoming fenced-off grids with armed gate-keepers and their own patrolling police units. Not pretty, but pretty safe.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 10, 2017)

Come to rural England and retire in peace! No guns, no militia, just tranquil countryside and the occasional drunk local on a tractor


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 10, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Come to rural England and retire in peace! No guns, no militia, just tranquil countryside and the occasional drunk local on a tractor



Careful, Mike. If even half of us did that, it wouldn't be very rural.


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## Camper6 (Oct 10, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Come to rural England and retire in peace! No guns, no militia, just tranquil countryside and the occasional drunk local on a tractor



Except for London? And have we forgotten about the "troubles" already?


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## Camper6 (Oct 10, 2017)

You will never see an outdoor concert in Vegas without armed security present. Same as a presidential visit.


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## grahamg (Oct 11, 2017)

*False dichotomy*



Smiling Jane said:


> We've talked this to death. I honestly don't see any way to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those who are wealthy enough to buy them on the black market. Who could have predicted this latest massacre? A lone gunman, armed to the teeth, with no history that would make him a person of interest? No way. This many days later the police still don't know why he did it, so how could it have been predicted?




I think I understand the feeling you've said everything you can on a terrible subject like this one, and got to that point myself during similar discussions "elsewhere". Whilst admitting I couldn't see a way forward, given the implacable views against "anything" being done so far as legislation as a result of this atrocity, I asked the question as to whether the views I was reading were representative of the views of US citizens generally?

Immediately someone came forward to suggest we were all being given a false impression, by a vocal minority, and I'm still unsure if that is so or not. However the next point you make about what can be done to stop another massacre in similar circumstances, or saying "nothing can be done", is maybe where you are creating a false dichotomy. The same person who came forward to suggest we were being given a false picture as to US public opinion went on to list a fairly impressive list of measures the US government could introduce which might well help. They may not help as you assert, but there is always going to be a degree of doubt or risk in anything the US authorities might do, and one way I'd suggest taking a modest step might help is that the loved ones of those killed might feel their terrible losses have been taken into consideration, and thought worth the effort to legislate.

The last point about false dichotomy, is that the police don't have to be able to predict how a single US citizen might behave in order to justify the introduction of laws which might make their actions in obtaining assault weaponry more difficult. If it is made more difficult there has to be a chance those supplying the arms illegally could be watched and men with this mindset uncovered during that operation.


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## chic (Oct 11, 2017)

I think things have gotten out of hand fairly recently with these mass shootings. People had guns when I was growing up, and long before. No one behaved like this, shooting masses of innocent unsuspecting people in public places. This is a form of terrorism IMHO, and it needs to be approached that way and solved that way.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 11, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You will never see an outdoor concert in Vegas without armed security present. Same as a presidential visit.



My wife went to see Lady Antebellum at the Birmingham Arena on Monday night with our son. Good security, full body search at entrance, no bags or any carry in items allowed but not a gun to be seen.

For those who don't know, Lady Antebellum are an American country pop band from Nashville, Tennessee, featuring Hillary Scott, Charles Kelley and Dave Haywood. They have won seven Grammys, had nine chart topping singles and three platinum selling albums.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 11, 2017)

grahamg said:


> I think I understand the feeling you've said everything you can on a terrible subject like this one, and got to that point myself during similar discussions "elsewhere". Whilst admitting I couldn't see a way forward, given the implacable views against "anything" being done so far as legislation as a result of this atrocity, I asked the question as to whether the views I was reading were representative of the views of US citizens generally?
> 
> Immediately someone came forward to suggest we were all being given a false impression, by a vocal minority, and I'm still unsure if that is so or not. However the next point you make about what can be done to stop another massacre in similar circumstances, or saying "nothing can be done", is maybe where you are creating a false dichotomy. The same person who came forward to suggest we were being given a false picture as to US public opinion went on to list a fairly impressive list of measures the US government could introduce which might well help. They may not help as you assert, but there is always going to be a degree of doubt or risk in anything the US authorities might do, and one way I'd suggest taking a modest step might help is that the loved ones of those killed might feel their terrible losses have been taken into consideration, and thought worth the effort to legislate.
> 
> The last point about false dichotomy, is that the police don't have to be able to predict how a single US citizen might behave in order to justify the introduction of laws which might make their actions in obtaining assault weaponry more difficult. If it is made more difficult there has to be a chance those supplying the arms illegally could be watched and men with this mindset uncovered during that operation.



I've seen no inclination that anyone who can is likely to do anything to protect regular everyday people like those who were killed in Vegas or the children at Sandy Hook or any of the other mass shootings. If you have seen any sign of positive change in the works, good for you. I'm so jaded I suspect we've set the fox to guard the henhouse, and those who are supposed to be watching out for us are profiting mightily by selling us down the river.

I don't clap for Tinkerbell, gave that up a long time ago.

I've read the NRA has said it's willing to look at getting rid of bump-stocks. I'll believe that when I see it. Talk is cheap. They figure we'll forget bump-stocks as soon as there's another mass shooting using a different kind of implement.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 11, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I've read the NRA has said it's willing to look at getting rid of bump-stocks. I'll believe that when I see it. Talk is cheap. They figure we'll forget bump-stocks as soon as there's another mass shooting using a different kind of implement.



Just a slight correction, Smiley; that would be up to the Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), not the NRA. The NRA is the National Rifleman's Association; in essence, a gun-owners guild, in rather the same way that a vintage car-collectors guild would be to vintage car-collectors; where the ATF is a government bureau that (among other things) investigates criminal activity and enforces laws regarding the unlawful possession, manufacture, use, and misuse of firearms and explosives.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 11, 2017)

Cap'nSacto said:


> Just a slight correction, Smiley; that would be up to the Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), not the NRA. The NRA is the National Rifleman's Association; in essence, a gun-owners guild, in rather the same way that a vintage car-collectors guild would be to vintage car-collectors; where the ATF is a government bureau that (among other things) investigates criminal activity and enforces laws regarding the unlawful possession, manufacture, use, and misuse of firearms and explosives.



I agree, Cap'n, but that's what the NRA said. I figure they have more power than ATF does.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 11, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I agree, Cap'n, but that's what the NRA said. I figure they have more power than ATF does.



Ah. hmm...I wonder if they mean they'll look into no longer sanctioning them.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 11, 2017)

They were probably implying they won't fight any proposed legislation against the bump-stocks.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 11, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> They were probably implying they won't fight any proposed legislation against the bump-stocks.



Yeah, that sounds about right.


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## Camper6 (Oct 11, 2017)

The Bumb Stocks won't make any difference.  You can make one in your garage.  That's how it got started.

You still can do a lot of damage with an AR-15 semi automatic.

That's what was used at Sandy Hook and his mother bought him the gun.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2017)

Camper is right. Semi automatic weapons are also a menace to public safety.
This class of firearm should be more tightly controlled.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 11, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Camper is right. Semi automatic weapons are also a menace to public safety.
> This class of firearm should be more tightly controlled.



The only control over semi's is at the point of sale. There's a bunch of paperwork and a background check. There is no control over the weapon after the purchaser takes ownership.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2017)

I know that this information will not meet the US 2nd Amendment test but I'm posting it anyway for everyone's information. In Australia's case, a lot of control begins at the border but in US it would have to begin with the manufacturers. 

The following is part of the National Firearms Agreement 2017 between the Australian Government and the states. 

Category C includes semi automatics and pump action long guns. 



> 6. Jurisdictions will ban the sale, resale, transfer, possession, manufacture and use of those semi-automatic long arms and pump action shotguns included in Licence Category C and D other than in the following exceptional circumstances: (a) military use
> 
> (b) police or other government purposes
> 
> ...



The full agreement is here: https://www.ag.gov.au/LegalSystem/Firearms/Documents/2017-national-firearms-agreement.pdf


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## RadishRose (Oct 11, 2017)

chic said:


> I think things have gotten out of hand fairly recently with these mass shootings. People had guns when I was growing up, and long before. No one behaved like this, shooting masses of innocent unsuspecting people in public places. This is a form of terrorism IMHO, and it needs to be approached that way and solved that way.



I agree. There's a lot more than owning guns going on here. There's something very wrong, but I can't figure out what it is.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 11, 2017)

chic said:


> I think things have gotten out of hand fairly recently with these mass shootings. People had guns when I was growing up, and long before. No one behaved like this, shooting masses of innocent unsuspecting people in public places. This is a form of terrorism IMHO, and it needs to be approached that way and solved that way.



I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but of course it is terrorism. If someone from a foreign country came here and did the same thing, there would be no hesitation in labelling the shooter as a terrorist.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 11, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> I agree. There's a lot more than owning guns going on here. There's something very wrong, but I can't figure out what it is.



Did it start with Columbine and how much media attention was given to that incident? After that the loonies came out of the woodwork and decided to have a contest to see who could get the most attention by killing the most people.

I think the mistake I make is in trying to look at this totally irrational behavior in a rational context. It's never going to work and in the meantime I'll drive myself crazy.


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## Knight (Oct 11, 2017)

The mix of laws from state to state doesn't help. This reference does a decent job of explaining why IMO a set of laws developed by the federal government should be the law of the land.  




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state


But as we all know, laws are only as good as the people that obey them. Is it realistic to think it's possible to solve the why of a person deciding to kill one or many?  

To Warrigal's post about the border.

The idea is nice but when millions of illegals have entered & drugs & guns are brought across our border daily I don't have much faith in border security stopping anything


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 11, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I know that this information will not meet the US 2nd Amendment test but I'm posting it anyway for everyone's information. In Australia's case, a lot of control begins at the border but in US it would have to begin with the manufacturers.
> 
> The following is part of the National Firearms Agreement 2017 between the Australian Government and the states.
> 
> ...



You're on an island. Granted, it's a huge one, but it is an island.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 11, 2017)

Cap'nSacto said:


> You're on an island. Granted, it's a huge one, but it is an island.



But if you're referring to border control, I though Oz had porous borders the same as we do ...


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2017)

It is easier when your nation is an island, with no land borders. 

Our customs people do a pretty good job and the police follow up. The principal importers of illegal firearms have been the bikers and we have laws that ban rogue clubs. They have been raided and contraband has been confiscated - drugs and firearms mostly.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 12, 2017)

This is doing the rounds on Facebook over here - from a non American point of view well worth a watch.

Is this Philip Van Cleave a "typical" American? Heaven help you, no wonder you can't have any control!

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1726743230752057/


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## Knight (Oct 12, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> This is doing the rounds on Facebook over here - from a non American point of view well worth a watch.
> 
> Is this Philip Van Cleave a "typical" American? Heaven help you, no wonder you can't have any control!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1726743230752057/


I don't think Philip Van Cleave could be considered a "typical" representative of an American. All you have to do is read the posts here to understand that pro gun control is preferred is to read the posts. It's the laws that are so varied that enforcing them from state to state can be difficult.

Read Warrigals post # 229 then consider America has  2 land [border] accesses and multiple port access to monitor. If Australia still has problems with gangs try to imagine the gang activity in America. Instead of that this should help.

Some 33,000 violent street gangs, motorcycle gangs, and prison gangs with about 1.4 million members are criminally active in the U.S. and Puerto Rico today. Many are sophisticated and well organized; all use violence to control neighborhoods and boost their illegal money-making activities, which include robbery, drug and gun trafficking, prostitution and human trafficking, and fraud. Many gang members continue to commit crimes even after being sent to jail.
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/violent-crime/gangs

Laws are only as good as the people that obey them. Where it gets sticky is when a non gang person decides to kill like the man did in Las Vegas. 

There should be a distinction between gun laws & gun control.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shootings/?utm_term=.1ed3d88ce189

I favor gun control then uniform gun laws. Reduction in death to an innocent person whether one or 100 might eventually be achieved.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 12, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I own a handgun and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon.



Meant to ask when you posted this, so do you actually carry this gun around with you, all the time?


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 12, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> Meant to ask when you posted this, so do you actually carry this gun around with you, all the time?



Not 100% of the time, but I often carry it. I'm a walker, and most of the time it's safe but sometimes it simply isn't. I got my permit when I worked nights in a building that was deserted at night and I had to go outside to get in my car. 

I was in a Walmart a few years ago when a female employee was about to be murdered by her boyfriend when a customer pulled out his gun and killed the creep. There's a culture here of violence against women, and the perpetrators are almost never punished to the degree one would expect.

The Mexican cartels have discovered they can make some extra pocket money by kidnapping people in the U.S. and holding them for ransom. Women who are walking or running are easy prey.

It's probably difficult for anyone who doesn't live around here to comprehend the random, almost casual violence we've come to expect.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/opinion/sunday/goodbye-albuquerque-land-of-violence.html


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 12, 2017)

It has gotten much worse in the past few years. It never used to be this bad. I blame a lot of it on meth, a drug that totally dehumanizes its users.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 12, 2017)

[FONT=&quot]A recent Home Office survey of drug use in England and Wales estimated that in the last year, just over two million people used cannabis, three quarters of a million people used cocaine, half a million people used ecstasy, whereas only 25,000 used methamphetamine so it's not a huge problem here, yet!
I don't think "Breaking bad" has helped as it introduced tens of thousands of people to it who otherwise would have no idea it existed![/FONT]


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## Big Horn (Oct 12, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I own a handgun and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I've won trophies for marksmanship so I'm not concerned about hitting my target. I'm not suicidal, my gun has a good trigger guard and there are no children in or around my home. I've been shot and I don't want to recreate that experience.


I apparently missed this post before.  I'm wondering what you carry as well as what method you use: holster, purse, something else?  Lots of folks like to get new ideas.

I love the fact that women are the fastest growing group of gun buyers.  Years ago, the only woman whom I normally saw at gun shows was my late wife and, of course, the wives of dealers.  My wife was knowledgeable about the subject: something that surprised many men at the time.  Today, there are many women who know guns.  We need to see more.


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## Cap'nSacto (Oct 12, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> This is doing the rounds on Facebook over here - from a non American point of view well worth a watch.
> 
> Is this Philip Van Cleave a "typical" American? Heaven help you, no wonder you can't have any control!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/1726743230752057/



By "control", I'm taking for granted you are referring specifically to guns. I watched as much of that video as I could stand. I've never heard of Phillip Van Cleave, but he did at least try to point out that our constitution states that our right to bear arms, to own guns/weapons, can not be infringed. I think what a lot of people forget is that both our constitution and our bill of rights tell our government what can and cannot be done, not the other way around. Therefore, when elected officials and law-enforcement agencies and departments take an oath to uphold and protect these documents, they are promising to not only obey the list of rules, if you will, that we set down for _them_, they also promise to kill any bill or proposals that would infringe on the rights that we set forth.  

It's a shame that Van Cleave didn't immediately explain this point.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 12, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> I apparently missed this post before.  I'm wondering what you carry as well as what method you use: holster, purse, something else?  Lots of folks like to get new ideas.
> 
> I love the fact that women are the fastest growing group of gun buyers.  Years ago, the only woman whom I normally saw at gun shows was my late wife and, of course, the wives of dealers.  My wife was knowledgeable about the subject: something that surprised many men at the time.  Today, there are many women who know guns.  We need to see more.



I currently have a Ruger LC9, one of a class of handguns called pocket pistols. I wear it in a belly band holster so it's on my person and quite comfortable except in the hottest part of summer (I'm in New Mexico). During the summer I wear a tank top with the belly band over it and a looser shirt over that. I'm shopping for a belly band that isn't black and that's more comfortable against my skin.

I grew up hunting with my older brother and his friends from an early age and in high school I began shooting competitively. I've always been comfortable with guns. One of my friends is a gun dealer who sells at gun shows. He's very helpful, kind of my gun maven. If he doesn't know, he steers me to someone who does.


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 13, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> I love the fact that women are the fastest growing group of gun buyers.



REALLY? Next it'll be everybody over the age of 10  And so it propagates! The more the merrier.
Sorry, I just cannot get my mind round this obsession, almost pride that you are all prepared to kill someone.


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## chic (Oct 13, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> REALLY? Next it'll be everybody over the age of 10  And so it propagates! The more the merrier.
> Sorry, I just cannot get my mind round this obsession, almost pride that you are all prepared to kill someone.



It's not pride that one is prepared to kill someone else, but rather to defend oneself from predators. If you'd ever been a victim or near victim of violence, you'd probably understand it better.


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## Big Horn (Oct 13, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> REALLY? Next it'll be everybody over the age of 10  And so it propagates! The more the merrier.
> Sorry, I just cannot get my mind round this obsession, almost pride that you are all prepared to kill someone.


This is how you respond to my praise for women who purchase guns in order that they may defend themselves.  Women are not second class citizens in this country.


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 13, 2017)

Cap'n Mike said:


> REALLY? Next it'll be everybody over the age of 10  And so it propagates! The more the merrier.
> Sorry, I just cannot get my mind round this obsession, almost pride that you are all prepared to kill someone.



There's a world of difference between "pride that you are all prepared to kill someone" and being willing to protect ourselves from the thugs, drug addicts, drug cartels and gang-bangers around us. You've admitted you didn't realize how bad it is in the U.S. and in the next breath you're comdemning us for taking up arms to protect ourselves. Make up your mind and land somewhere.

In a mugging for drug money, I was shot directly in the chest at point-blank range. I won't allow anything like that to happen to me again if there is anything I can do to prevent it. 

I don't care if that bothers you because you aren't here to protect me, are you?

Talk is cheap. Buy a vowel and spare me from your judgment.


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## Big Horn (Oct 13, 2017)

This is the official British position on self-defense as well as carrying a knife and a stun gun.  I had more freedom in America when I was seven years old.

The video is funny.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q337.htm

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q509.htm

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtct-z9JS8
[/URL]


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## Smiling Jane (Oct 13, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> This is the official British position on self-defense.
> 
> https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm



Impressive. In other words, don't do anything because you may be the one who goes to jail, even if you only hit him with your silk scarf. I'd like to see them try that in Baltimore or Chicago.

Always look on the bright side of life. Too funny. I enjoy watching the British pretend they're civilized after all those years of subjugating other countries and stealing their wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2017)

Mr. Horn. Canucks don't carry handguns either, however, at present, we feel quite free. We aren't really worried about being killed, you see. With a homicide rate averaging about 550 people per year, including all form of homicide not just gunshot fatalities , among approx 36 million people, we don't really feel our defence rights are being violated.


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> This is how you respond to my praise for women who purchase guns in order that they may defend themselves.  Women are not second class citizens in this country.


One moment please, I am a Canadian woman, and I am not a second class citizen. Everyone who is not in agreement with your position on a subject does not deserve to be castigated. Canadian women do not carry handguns, and I assure you, we 

experience far less violence per capita than the lovely American ladies. As do the Brits for that matter. I think we should confine ourselves to debate rather than trashing each other's countries. Given the cultural divide, it would be odd if we did not find certain aspects of accepted custom in different countries puzzling.


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## Warrigal (Oct 13, 2017)

At 1.7 deaths per million annually, Australians have roughly the same chance of being shot to death as American have of falling from a structure or high building.

The Japanese die from gunshot as frequently as Americans are struck by lightning (0.1 in 1 million)

In the United States, the death rate from gun homicides is about 31 per million people — the equivalent of 27 people shot dead every day of the year.

Read the article, look at the graphs and think about the differences.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/...ath-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html


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## Camper6 (Oct 13, 2017)

chic said:


> It's not pride that one is prepared to kill someone else, but rather to defend oneself from predators. If you'd ever been a victim or near victim of violence, you'd probably understand it better.



I can understand having to defend yourself from predators.

What I cannot understand is that someone like Paddock needs all those weapons and ammunition and enhancements to 'protect' himself.

I think allowing that type of arsenal to a civilian is a bit of overkill don't you think?


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## Cap'n Mike (Oct 13, 2017)

Quite agree Camper6, ONE MAN, ONE GUN - why would you need any more?

Remember this? NINE YEAR OLD girl kills instructor with an UZI SUB MACHINE GUN! REALLY?? What the **** does a nine year old girl need to learn to shoot (and obviously fail) a bloody Uzi submachine gum??

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oting-instructor-with-Uzi-submachine-gun.html


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## Matrix (Oct 13, 2017)

I'm closing this thread. 

I strongly suggest non-US members stay out of gun related discussions, it never ends well.


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