# Massive Protest Against Vaccine Mandate By NYC Police & Firefighters



## OneEyedDiva (Nov 3, 2021)

From what I've come across in my search engine, I see that similar protests have taken place in San Diego and Seattle. As of November 1st, 2,300 NYC firefighters called in sick and 9,000 city employees were on unpaid leave due to choosing not to get vaccinated.
https://www.rt.com/usa/538780-nyc-firefighters-police-protest/


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 3, 2021)

The numbers sound big until you realize that the city of New York employs approx. 330,000 people of which approx. 17,000 are employed by the fire department.

I hope that the various governments and businesses stick to the vaccine mandate.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

Sooner or later, the "Mandators," Controllers & Sheepherders will learn the cost of going too far.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 3, 2021)

Sadly, we’ve already learned the cost of not going far enough.


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## Packerjohn (Nov 3, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> Sadly, we’ve already learned the cost of not going far enough.


How far should we go?  Should we shot the people who are anti-vaxers?  There has to be a point where we stop. In case anyone remembers we were told that we live in a free country.  Now, no one remembers this.  The current trend seems to be forcing everyone to follow the politically correct.  Oh, I have both of my shots  but I miss the days when I lived in a free country!  We were told that the Canada-US border is the world's longest undefended border.  Just try to cross it and you will find out how undefended it is.  There are a lot of people who want to shut everything down if the government is going to give them "free" money.  That is too bad as there are many really poor people around the world who depend on income that is generated by the tourist trade.  We are in a mess and it will take some time to fix this economic mess.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> How far should we go?  Should we shot the people who are anti-vaxers?  There has to be a point where we stop. In case anyone remembers we were told that we live in a free country.  Now, no one remembers this.  The current trend seems to be forcing everyone to follow the politically correct.  Oh, I have both of my shots  but I miss the days when I lived in a free country!  We were told that the Canada-US border is the world's longest undefended border.  Just try to cross it and you will find out how undefended it is.  There are a lot of people who want to shut everything down if the government is going to give them "free" money.  That is too bad as there are many really poor people around the world who depend on income that is generated by the tourist trade.  We are in a mess and it will take some time to fix this economic mess.


And we were told, "Just get vaccinated so we can get back to normal."
At my doctor's visit a year ago, he said,  "Well, when we're all vaccinated, we can stop wearing these stupid masks & live normally again."


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## suds00 (Nov 3, 2021)

no one was vaccinated a year ago.no " normal" doctor would have said that one year ago .maybe some "quack"


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## chic (Nov 3, 2021)

win231 said:


> Sooner or later, the "Mandators," Controllers & Sheepherders will learn the cost of going too far.



I think they already have in Virginia.


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## chic (Nov 3, 2021)

suds00 said:


> no one was vaccinated a year ago.no " normal" doctor would have said that one year ago .maybe some "quack"


He said to them "when we all get vaccinated". What makes him a quack for believing, a year ago, getting vaxxed would get a person out of a mask?It's what the CDC and the government said. Explain this please?


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

suds00 said:


> no one was vaccinated a year ago.no " normal" doctor would have said that one year ago .maybe some "quack"


Uh....maybe re-read?  I didn't say anyone was vaccinated a year ago.


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## retiredtraveler (Nov 3, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> How far should we go?  Should we shot the people who are anti-vaxers?  There has to be a point where we stop. In case anyone remembers we were told that we live in a free country.  Now, no one remembers this.  The current trend seems to be forcing everyone to follow the politically correct.  Oh, I have both of my shots  but I miss the days when I lived in a free country!  We were told that the Canada-US border is the world's longest undefended border.  Just try to cross it and you will find out how undefended it is.  There are a lot of people who want to shut everything down if the government is going to give them "free" money.  That is too bad as there are many really poor people around the world who depend on income that is generated by the tourist trade.  We are in a mess and it will take some time to fix this economic mess.


I have never understood this 'free country' crappola. You have rules and regs on everything in your daily life. Osha governs the workplace with thousands of regs. You have traffic laws, mandatory schooling up to a certain age. People have to be licensed or certified to perform hundreds of different jobs. You have to pay taxes. You have laws that force you to mow your lawn in certain locales.   
    What in God's name is different about vaccine mandates????


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## kssf (Nov 3, 2021)

I put in a request when my dr gets back tomorrow to have a blood test to see what number my antibodies are.  I hope he calls in the order as the lab said they can do that test and found out my ins will pay for it.  I had a very light case of covid but got both shots - moderna - the first shot felt funny for 12 hours but the second shot had 101 fever.  Covid didn't make me that sick - anyway, I think it is worth to get this blood test so you can decide whether to get the booster or not - NOT the government.


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## retiredtraveler (Nov 3, 2021)

kssf said:


> I put in a request when my dr gets back tomorrow to have a blood test to see what number my antibodies are.  I hope he calls in the order as the lab said they can do that test and found out my ins will pay for it.  I had a very light case of covid but got both shots - moderna - the first shot felt funny for 12 hours but the second shot had 101 fever.  Covid didn't make me that sick - anyway, I think it is worth to get this blood test so you can decide whether to get the booster or not - NOT the government.


No. Getting the blood test won't help the decision. Why? Because no one knows what 'number' you have to have as far as antibodies to be 'reasonably protected'. The data isn't there. You'll get a nice piece of paper showing your test results, but no one can tell you how well covered you are.


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## Nathan (Nov 3, 2021)

retiredtraveler said:


> I have never understood this 'free country' crappola. You have rules and regs on everything in your daily life. Osha governs the workplace with thousands of regs. You have traffic laws, mandatory schooling up to a certain age. People have to be licensed or certified to perform hundreds of different jobs. You have to pay taxes. You have laws that force you to mow your lawn in certain locales.
> What in God's name is different about vaccine mandates????


Thank you.      Certain people don't understand how societies and civilization work, they think (like spoiled, undisciplined children) that they don't have to tow the line, or do anything that doesn't benefit only themselves.     The internet has given such spoiled, undisciplined children the ability to ban together and get loud and unruly, and to share and cultivate their spoiled, undisciplined attitudes.


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## Shero (Nov 3, 2021)

All the protests will be to NO avail.  The world is gripped in a pandemic. Those who refuse to comply will have a few surprises.  Soon there will be no choice, everywhere it is get vaccined or.......
.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

Shero said:


> All the protests will be to NO avail.  The world is gripped in a pandemic. Those who refuse to comply will have a few surprises.  Soon there will be no choice, everywhere it is get vaccined or.......
> .


Get "Vaccined" or be locked in a room with Shero until you do.

Mon Dieu!!


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## dseag2 (Nov 3, 2021)

retiredtraveler said:


> I have never understood this 'free country' crappola. You have rules and regs on everything in your daily life. Osha governs the workplace with thousands of regs. You have traffic laws, mandatory schooling up to a certain age. People have to be licensed or certified to perform hundreds of different jobs. You have to pay taxes. You have laws that force you to mow your lawn in certain locales.
> What in God's name is different about vaccine mandates????


Best post yet in all the back-and-forth on vaccine mandates!


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## chic (Nov 4, 2021)

retiredtraveler said:


> I have never understood this 'free country' crappola. You have rules and regs on everything in your daily life. Osha governs the workplace with thousands of regs. You have traffic laws, mandatory schooling up to a certain age. People have to be licensed or certified to perform hundreds of different jobs. You have to pay taxes. You have laws that force you to mow your lawn in certain locales.
> What in God's name is different about vaccine mandates????


It's experimental. 
It's being forced on people or they will lose their jobs.
A person's religious objections have no bearing. 
But worst of all- There Is No Product Liability for these vaccines until 2025!


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## chic (Nov 4, 2021)

win231 said:


> Get "Vaccined" or be locked in a room with Shero until you do.
> 
> Mon Dieu!!


Be careful @win231 she might like that.


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## Shero (Nov 4, 2021)

chic said:


> Be careful @win231 she might like that.


Non, I would like to get him on my boat, throw him overboard and watch the frail little thing do a belly flap (bet he can’t swim), before feeding him to the sharks who won’t want him anyway


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## Judycat (Nov 4, 2021)

You'd think people who order others around for a living wouldn't be bothered by a vaccine mandate. I guess unless they are in charge of the mandate, they will protest having to follow it.


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## Pepper (Nov 4, 2021)

I can report the sounds of sirens has gone down considerably.  I live not far from fire & police stations.  Monday and Tuesday I heard NO SIRENS AT ALL, which I never thought would happen.  I hate those constant sirens, all day long.  Now, nothing or almost none.  There must be a connection, right?


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## Judycat (Nov 4, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I can report the sounds of sirens has gone down considerably.  I live not far from fire & police stations.  Monday and Tuesday I heard NO SIRENS AT ALL, which I never thought would happen.  I hate those constant sirens, all day long.  Now, nothing or almost none.  There must be a connection, right?


Maybe they have turned them off and enjoy taking their time getting to a fire or crime scene now.


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 4, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The numbers sound big until you realize that the city of New York employs approx. 330,000 people of which approx. 17,000 are employed by the fire department.
> 
> I hope that the various governments and businesses stick to the vaccine mandate.


I don't believe in the mandate. But I don't say that people who want to shouldn't get vaccinated (eg: I'm not an anti-vaxer). Regardless of the percentage of municipal workers, including fire and police officers, less is less. I doubt NYC can afford to have less of those critical jobs staffed. As @Pepper noted, already she's gone from hearing sirens and more sirens to hearing none. Some places have instituted a mandatory weekly COVID test for those who are not vaccinated. I like that option better. And as @chic pointed out...drug companies may be off the hook for being sued in case there are any adverse reactions to the vaccine, although I thought once the vaccines were approved, that would change immediately and not a wait until 2025.

An additional slap in the face is if an employer mandates an employee to get vaccinated and said employee has a severe adverse reaction, the company can't be sued either. There is no liability. And how much you wanna bet, the company may even penalize the employee who winds up having to take time off because of it (?).


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## chic (Nov 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> Non, I would like to get him on my boat, throw him overboard and watch the frail little thing do a belly flap (bet he can’t swim), before feeding him to the sharks who won’t want him anyway


That's contempt. Contempt for one another should have no place in friendly discussion forum.


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## chic (Nov 4, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I don't believe in the mandate. But I don't say that people who want to shouldn't get vaccinated (eg: I'm not an anti-vaxer). Regardless of the percentage of municipal workers, including fire and police officers, less is less. I doubt NYC can afford to have less of those critical jobs staffed. As @Pepper noted, already she's gone from hearing sirens and more sirens to hearing none. Some places have instituted a mandatory COVID test for those who are not vaccinated. I like that option better. And as @chic pointed out...drug companies may be off the hook for being sued in case there are any adverse reactions to the vaccine, although I thought once the vaccines were approved, that would change immediately and not a wait until 2025.
> 
> An additional slap in the face is if an employer mandates an employee to get vaccinated and said employee has a severe adverse reaction, the company can't be sued either. There is no liability. And how much you wanna bet, the company may even penalize the employee who winds up having to take time off because of it (?).


I thought so too once they received FDA approval but the whole thing just makes me wonder even more about this whole thing.


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## suds00 (Nov 4, 2021)

no doctor would call masks stupid. .the doctor would not have initiated a conversation about an new vaccine before it was approved by the fda. the vaccine is experimental only in that it is new and the fda doesn't normally go further when approving new drugs. these are "special" times and a vaccine was desperately needed ,hence the quick approval .millions have received the vaccine. it has proven safe and effective in most cases .i have no contempt for no other poster .i vehemently disagree with those who have decided that this is a political issue and not a disease that only science can eradicate. this is not business as usual.


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## win231 (Nov 4, 2021)

suds00 said:


> no doctor would call masks stupid. .the doctor would not have initiated a conversation about an new vaccine before it was approved by the fda. the vaccine is experimental only in that it is new and the fda doesn't normally go further when approving new drugs. these are "special" times and a vaccine was desperately needed ,hence the quick approval .millions have received the vaccine. it has proven safe and effective in most cases .i have no contempt for no other poster .i vehemently disagree with those who have decided that this is a political issue and not a disease that only science can eradicate. this is not business as usual.


Uh....OK, so I must be makin' the whole conversation up & you know that 'cuz you were in the room with us.


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## suds00 (Nov 4, 2021)

you had the alleged conversation .i doubt that a doctor would make a oft-handed comment about a vaccine before it was even approved.


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## win231 (Nov 4, 2021)

suds00 said:


> you had the alleged conversation .i doubt that a doctor would make a oft-handed comment about a vaccine before it was even approved.


When the doctor said _"Stupid Masks,"_ he may not have meant masks were useless; he may have been complaining about having to wear a mask all the time & he thought the upcoming vaccine would fix that by making masks unnecessary.   Which it didn't......


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## suds00 (Nov 4, 2021)

that's because everyone didn't get the vaccine and the delta variant came to the us. you're still better of with the vaccine.


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## win231 (Nov 4, 2021)

suds00 said:


> that's because everyone didn't get the vaccine and the delta variant came to the us. you're still better of with the vaccine.


If that was true, there wouldn't be so many breakthrough cases.
We didn't hear about breakthrough cases with smallpox & polio vaccines - which took the required many years to develop.
"Delta Variant?"  Why were there no variants with smallpox & polio viruses?


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## MrPants (Nov 4, 2021)

win231 said:


> If that was true, there wouldn't be so many breakthrough cases.
> We didn't hear about breakthrough cases with smallpox & polio vaccines - which took the required many years to develop.
> "Delta Variant?"  Why were there no variants with smallpox & polio viruses?


Polio had 3 variants and smallpox had 2 variants.


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## dseag2 (Nov 4, 2021)

I believe I saw today that 91% of NYPD officers have now been vaccinated, so whether one thinks it's right or wrong the mandate is working.


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## palides2021 (Nov 4, 2021)

Merck has come out with an antiviral for covid19. The UK is going to be using it. Are they smarter than us?


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## win231 (Nov 4, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I believe I saw today that 91% of NYPD officers have now been vaccinated, so whether one thinks it's right or wrong the mandate is working.


Assuming that figure is accurate (which it likely isn't), that's not the case in other departments.  Only 51% vaccinated here:

The Sheriff's Department is the largest in the country. Of its 16,084 sworn and civilian personnel, 51% — 8,180 — are fully vaccinated, according to data provided by the county CEO's office. There are at least 2,327 unvaccinated employees and 1,843 seeking a religious or medical exemption. Twenty-one percent — 3,444 — are yet to register their vaccination status with the county.
https://laist.com/news/criminal-jus...s-because-of-vaccine-mandate-villanueva-covid


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## dseag2 (Nov 4, 2021)

palides2021 said:


> Merck has come out with an antiviral for covid19. The UK is going to be using it. Are they smarter than us?


Probably not smarter, just more responsive.


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

win231 said:


> If that was true, there wouldn't be so many breakthrough cases.
> We didn't hear about breakthrough cases with smallpox & polio vaccines - which took the required many years to develop.
> "Delta Variant?"  Why were there no variants with smallpox & polio viruses?


there are breakthrough cases because many don't get vaccinated.. there are fewer cases amongst the vaccinated .more people trusted the science with the other viruses you named. smallpox was vaccinated against hundreds of years ago with vaccine made from cowpox. .there are different variants because the virus has mutated. the vaccine works well over 90% of the time as opposed to not getting the vaccine.


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## win231 (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> there are breakthrough cases because many don't get vaccinated.. there are fewer cases amongst the vaccinated .more people trusted the science with the other viruses you named. smallpox was vaccinated against hundreds of years ago with vaccine made from cowpox. .there are different variants because the virus has mutated. the vaccine works well over 90% of the time as opposed to not getting the vaccine.


Smallpox & Polio vaccines were developed over 10-15 years - the time required for study, testing & research.  Not 10 months like the Covid vaccine.  That's why it's not working.

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635?

"Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. *Paul D Thacker* reports
In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open letter to the billions of people around the world who were investing their hopes in a safe and effective covid-19 vaccine to end the pandemic. “As I’ve said before, we are operating at the speed of science,” Bourla wrote, explaining to the public when they could expect a Pfizer vaccine to be authorised in the United States.1

But, for researchers who were testing Pfizer’s vaccine at several sites in Texas during that autumn, speed may have come at the cost of data integrity and patient safety. A regional director who was employed at the research organisation Ventavia Research Group has told _The BMJ_ that the company falsified data, unblinded patients, employed inadequately trained vaccinators, and was slow to follow up on adverse events reported in Pfizer’s pivotal phase III trial. Staff who conducted quality control checks were overwhelmed by the volume of problems they were finding. After repeatedly notifying Ventavia of these problems, the regional director, Brook Jackson, emailed a complaint to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Ventavia fired her later the same day. Jackson has provided _The BMJ_ with dozens of internal company documents, photos, audio recordings, and emails.


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

the covid vaccine was in development since the sars epidemic.it is working ,as advertised. you can quote any questionable source you want to back up your arguments. i've never heard of them aside from the bmj  .take the vaccination .don't take the vaccination .i'm done arguing .it's tiresome.


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## Pepper (Nov 5, 2021)

Still No Sirens!  None all week of any kind.  Did see an ambulance out my window, but it did not use it's sirens.  Ahhhhhh, Peace.

I don't believe it!  When I typed Peace I heard my first siren in a week.  Oh no.  They're baaaaaaaaack.


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> the covid vaccine was in development since the sars epidemic.it is working ,as advertised. you can quote any questionable source you want to back up your arguments. i've never heard of them aside from the bmj  .take the vaccination .don't take the vaccination .i'm done arguing .it's tiresome.


one more thing .despite the issues cited in the article. the fda approved pfizer's  application for the vaccine .the study may have shown sloppy practises but the vaccine was approved for general use .the majority of people in this country have gotten at least one shot and millions have gotten two, as well as a boosters ;with the vast majority not having unmanageable side effects or breakthrough cases. fin


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## Murrmurr (Nov 5, 2021)

retiredtraveler said:


> I have never understood this 'free country' crappola. You have rules and regs on everything in your daily life. Osha governs the workplace with thousands of regs. You have traffic laws, mandatory schooling up to a certain age. People have to be licensed or certified to perform hundreds of different jobs. You have to pay taxes. You have laws that force you to mow your lawn in certain locales.
> What in God's name is different about vaccine mandates????


Safety regulations and mowing your lawn are entirely different from a gov't and employers demanding people put a substance in their body.

The original idea was that if a percentage of the population got vaccinated (I think it was 65% or 70%), we would reach herd immunity. That made sense; vaccine plus natural immunity. Why was natural immunity dropped from the equation? I suggest the reason is profits, corruption and greed.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Nov 5, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Safety regulations and mowing your lawn are entirely different from a gov't and employers demanding people put a substance in their body.
> 
> The original idea was that if a percentage of the population got vaccinated (I think it was 65% or 70%), we would reach herd immunity. That made sense; vaccine plus natural immunity. Why was natural immunity dropped from the equation? I suggest the reason is profits, corruption and greed.


"Yes—but “herd immunity to COVID-19” does not mean that we will soon achieve a level of immunity in the population, like what we see with measles, and coronavirus will be “over.” Returning to life as it was before the pandemic, without seeing large coronavirus outbreaks, is unlikely to happen for several years, for a few reasons.

First, it has proven much harder to get people vaccinated against COVID-19 than against measles. As of September 2021, just over half of the US population was fully vaccinated against COVID-19—even though we know that the FDA-approved vaccines are extremely safe and have remained highly effective, even against new variants like the delta variant. 

Second, young children are still not eligible for the vaccine, and new children (who are susceptible to COVID-19) are born every day. So, until we get vaccines that are approved for use in all ages, there is likely to be ongoing transmission of the coronavirus in kids, who will in turn be able to infect adults, especially unvaccinated ones.

Third, while our vaccines against COVID-19 are very effective and dramatically reduce the risk of infection, they do not reduce that risk to zero. People who have gotten vaccinated can still become infected (so-called breakthrough infections), and some people who have had COVID-19 can get it again. This means that we would need an even higher level of vaccination against COVID-19 to achieve herd immunity. 

For all these reasons, it will be very challenging to get to the level of population immunity against COVID-19 that we have seen with measles in the U.S. We should therefore expect to see some level of ongoing coronavirus transmission in our population for many years (if not forever). But as we build immunity to SARS-CoV-2, the risk of severe illness will decrease, and future waves of infection won’t be as disruptive."

https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/what-is-herd-immunity-and-how-can-we-achieve-it-with-covid-19


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Safety regulations and mowing your lawn are entirely different from a gov't and employers demanding people put a substance in their body.
> 
> The original idea was that if a percentage of the population got vaccinated (I think it was 65% or 70%), we would reach herd immunity. That made sense; vaccine plus natural immunity. Why was natural immunity dropped from the equation? I suggest the reason is profits, corruption and greed.


immunity from vaccination has been found to be superior to natural immunity. also, you can die if you get covid 19 natural immunity only kicks in if you survive the disease. the substance you put in your body is the only thing currently available that can save you from getting the disease.


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## Pepper (Nov 5, 2021)

Since hearing one siren at 130pm I have since heard two more, though very short.  They are warming back up to speed.  The noise, the noise, the constant noise.  However, this is NYC and my "rent" is cheap!


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

that means people are working i believe.


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## win231 (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> one more thing .despite the issues cited in the article. the fda approved pfizer's  application for the vaccine .the study may have shown sloppy practises but the vaccine was approved for general use .the majority of people in this country have gotten at least one shot and millions have gotten two, as well as a boosters ;with the vast majority not having unmanageable side effects or breakthrough cases. fin


_"i'm done arguing .it's tiresome."_
Obviously, it's not tiresome enough.


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

as you wish


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## win231 (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> immunity from vaccination has been found to be superior to natural immunity. also, you can die if you get covid 19 natural immunity only kicks in if you survive the disease. the substance you put in your body is the only thing currently available that can save you from getting the disease.


Ya know which type of immunity (natural or the vaccine) is superior?  The type you chose.


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## Ladybj (Nov 5, 2021)

kssf said:


> I put in a request when my dr gets back tomorrow to have a blood test to see what number my antibodies are.  I hope he calls in the order as the lab said they can do that test and found out my ins will pay for it.  I had a very light case of covid but got both shots - moderna - the first shot felt funny for 12 hours but the second shot had 101 fever.  Covid didn't make me that sick - anyway, I think it is worth to get this blood test so you can decide whether to get the booster or not - NOT the government.


Checking your antibodies before getting the booster shot is a very smart thing to do.  I was reading something regarding people with high antibodies taking the booster dose.  However, as I always state, people do what is best for them.  I have a friend that regrets taking the booster.  My hubby was on board but changed his mind due to his antibodies being high.  He will be taking the flu shot but will verify with his doctor first.  Hope you feel better.


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## Murrmurr (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> immunity from vaccination has been found to be superior to natural immunity. also, you can die if you get covid 19 natural immunity only kicks in if you survive the disease. the substance you put in your body is the only thing currently available that can save you from getting the disease.


Natural immunity has been shown to remain robust longer than vaccine immunity. It's also been shown that neither one can "save you from getting the disease."


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## Pepper (Nov 5, 2021)

suds00 said:


> that means people are working i believe.


Yes, I always try to remember the cops are out to help; the EMT's are there to help; the fire folks are out to help.


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## Murrmurr (Nov 5, 2021)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> "Yes—but “herd immunity to COVID-19” does not mean that we will soon achieve a level of immunity in the population, like what we see with measles, and coronavirus will be “over.” Returning to life as it was before the pandemic, without seeing large coronavirus outbreaks, is unlikely to happen for several years, for a few reasons.


That's true. Herd immunity means greatly reduced serious illness and deaths, and covid becoming endemic rather than pandemic.


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

win231 said:


> Ya know which type of immunity (natural or the vaccine) is superior?  The type you chose.


you've chosen your type


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## suds00 (Nov 5, 2021)

the vaccine results in fewer deaths.


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## Ladybj (Nov 9, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> That's true. Herd immunity means greatly reduced serious illness and deaths, and covid becoming endemic rather than pandemic.


It will soon become endemic.  If there are currently thousands in the football stadiums...


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 10, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I believe I saw today that 91% of NYPD officers have now been vaccinated, so whether one thinks it's right or wrong the mandate is working.


Wrong.  I think lots of folks, like myself, are perfectly willing to be vaccinated. That’s what is working, not the damn mandates. We are NOT in favor of forcing people to have a medical procedure against their will.  It’s government overreach at its worst.  Perhaps you also think any sort of coercion is ok, you know, as long as it’s a cause you believe in.   Coercion often works, but that doesn’t make it right.


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## Macfan (Nov 10, 2021)

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated." 'Tis true, tis true, oh how I wish it were not so. Don...


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## win231 (Nov 10, 2021)

chic said:


> That's contempt. Contempt for one another should have no place in friendly discussion forum.


Perhaps it's more fantasy than contempt.


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## Ladybj (Nov 10, 2021)

suds00 said:


> the vaccine results in fewer deaths.


And you know this because.........????


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## win231 (Nov 10, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> And you know this because.........????


Because vaccine ads on TV say so.


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## suds00 (Nov 11, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> And you know this because.........????


how are you sure of how many deaths occur in the non-vaccinated. oh! look at the statistics compiled.same for the vaccinated.


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## Ladybj (Nov 12, 2021)

suds00 said:


> how are you sure of how many deaths occur in the non-vaccinated. oh! look at the statistics compiled.same for the vaccinated.


No disrespect to you but how do you know the number of deaths are from covid and non vaccinated are accurate? Just because we are told through media sources does not make it true.. its a belief handed to us.  Belief and knowing are two different things.  I know I can ride a bike and roller skate but some beliefs were handed to me.  As I grew older - I learned the difference.  However, we all have a right to our perception.  Bottom line, not sure about you but I will admit, I don't know a lot of things - especially when it comes to Covid.


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## Judycat (Nov 13, 2021)

Trust nothing but what's in your own mind, it would seem.  I hear circus music playing and see Homer Simpson giving a lecture.


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## win231 (Nov 13, 2021)

Judycat said:


> Trust nothing but what's in your own mind, it would seem.  I hear circus music playing and see Homer Simpson giving a lecture.


Depends on whether or not what's in your own mind makes more sense than what we're being told.


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## Ladybj (Nov 13, 2021)

win231 said:


> Depends on whether or not what's in your own mind makes more sense than what we're being told.


Win I agree.  This is a quote I came across many years ago:

"We create what we Fear".   

This is sooo true.  What we fear in our mind, we create in our body.  I always wondered years ago when I was going through a rough time in my life and I saw several doctors, why they did not find anything.  Long story short, it was more mental than physical - I was very stressed which caused physical pain/problems.  My body is still healing from years of stress. I know it will take some time but I am definitely getting there.  In a much better place.  I don't sweat the small stuff anymore.


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## Shero (Nov 14, 2021)

.





_ 

God bless our wonderful ICU nurses_


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## ManjaroKDE (Nov 14, 2021)

> Vaccine mandates are causing teachers who *DON'T* believe in science to quit, nurses who *DON'T* believe in medicine to quit and police/firefighters who *DON'T* believe in public safety to quit.


*I'm failing to see the downside to this.*

(Edited for offensive words and copied from HCA.)


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## chic (Nov 16, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> And you know this because.........????


He believes it because the government tells him so. Maybe?


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## suds00 (Nov 16, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> No disrespect to you but how do you know the number of deaths are from covid and non vaccinated are accurate? Just because we are told through media sources does not make it true.. its a belief handed to us.  Belief and knowing are two different things.  I know I can ride a bike and roller skate but some beliefs were handed to me.  As I grew older - I learned the difference.  However, we all have a right to our perception.  Bottom line, not sure about you but I will admit, I don't know a lot of things - especially when it comes to Covid.


 i don't know much .i rely on the cdc and other agencies


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## suds00 (Nov 16, 2021)

suds00 said:


> i don't know much .i rely on the cdc and other agencies


as always,thanks


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## Ladybj (Nov 18, 2021)

suds00 said:


> i don't know much .i rely on the cdc and other agencies


I may be wrong but that is what "they" are counting on.  At least you were honest... that speaks volumes.  When you think you know, you find out, you don't know too much after all. Speaking mainly of myself.


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## suds00 (Nov 19, 2021)

i want to hear from a knowledgeable source.


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 19, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> Checking your antibodies before getting the booster shot is a very smart thing to do.  I was reading something regarding people with high antibodies taking the booster dose.  However, as I always state, people do what is best for them.  I have a friend that regrets taking the booster.  My hubby was on board but changed his mind due to his antibodies being high.  He will be taking the flu shot but will verify with his doctor first.  Hope you feel better.


My BFF told me her brother's doctor told him he doesn't need a booster at this time and advised against it due to his antibody level.


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## Ladybj (Nov 19, 2021)

suds00 said:


> i want to hear from a knowledgeable source.


Same here...  I have a feeling we will at some point.


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## Murrmurr (Nov 19, 2021)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> "Yes—but “herd immunity to COVID-19” does not mean that we will soon achieve a level of immunity in the population, like what we see with measles, and coronavirus will be “over.” Returning to life as it was before the pandemic, without seeing large coronavirus outbreaks, is unlikely to happen for several years, for a few reasons.
> 
> First, it has proven much harder to get people vaccinated against COVID-19 than against measles. As of September 2021, just over half of the US population was fully vaccinated against COVID-19—even though we know that the FDA-approved vaccines are extremely safe and have remained highly effective, even against new variants like the delta variant.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of that.

But a very interesting study came out of Sweden recently and a lot of medical PhDs/MDs are talking about it. It showed evidence that a SARS-CoV 2 protein in both the vaccine and the virus itself has the ability to enter any human cell and replicate uncontrollably. They think this could be what's causing reinfection and Long Covid.

This was an in vitro lab study, and those don't always translate to "real life" outcomes, so follow-up studies are in progress now, including a major one in Japan. I can only find discussions and lectures at this time but I'm keeping an eye on it.

If the study proves true, then the vaccine would need to be tweaked and/or be given with an additional medication. So, not the end of the world.


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## chic (Nov 19, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I agree with most of that.
> 
> But a very interesting study came out of Sweden recently and a lot of medical PhDs/MDs are talking about it. It showed evidence that a SARS-CoV 2 protein in both the vaccine and the virus itself has the ability to enter any human cell and replicate uncontrollably. They think this could be what's causing reinfection and Long Covid.
> 
> ...


The Swedish study revealed that the spike proteins can penetrate the nucleus of the cell and interfere with DNA's ability to repair itself which could be causing/contributing to reinfection and recurrence of cancers in people previously in remission but more research needs to be done which is hard because the official narrative is just to shut up and get vaccinated even though the most vaccinated countries are doing the worst in controlling covid whereas Sweden and Africa are doing better. 

There needs to be more open discussion and transparency to know more.


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## oldiebutgoody (Nov 19, 2021)

Lots of people refusing to vax.  Many of them dying.  I'm sure there's something to be said about life's little choices.


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## chic (Nov 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Lots of people refusing to vax.  Many of them dying.  I'm sure there's something to be said about life's little choices.


You can die or become seriously disabled getting vaxxed for a virus that has a 99+% survival rate. That's hardly a "little thing" to many. It isn't even a vaccine in the true sense of the word. This is an "experimental drug" promoted as a vaccine released on an emergency measure basis. It has No product liability.


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## oldiebutgoody (Nov 20, 2021)

chic said:


> You can die or become seriously disabled getting vaxxed for a virus that has a 99+% survival rate.




and are likelier to do without such a vax as shown in the daily headlines:  Unvaccinated hospitalized patients say they regret not getting the shot (nbcnews.com)


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## chic (Nov 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> and are likelier to do without such a vax as shown in the daily headlines:   Unvaccinated hospitalized patients say they regret not getting the shot (nbcnews.com)


All many pro vaccine people do is delegitimize valid concerns by endlessly regurgitating government propaganda. Do you have an original thought on the subject?


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## win231 (Nov 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Lots of people refusing to vax.  Many of them dying.  I'm sure there's something to be said about life's little choices.


There's something to be said about turning people into programmed robots.


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## oldiebutgoody (Nov 20, 2021)

chic said:


> All many pro vaccine people do is delegitimize valid concerns by endlessly regurgitating government propaganda. Do you have an original thought on the subject?





Can you present any evidence that promoting vaccination and public safety constitutes "government propaganda"?

I'll wait ...


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## suds00 (Nov 20, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> Same here...  I have a feeling we will at some point.


i believe that we've already heard from knowledgeable medical people who have been working with similar viruses for years and those individuals have fund that the current treatment regimens ;including the vaccine and newly developed anti-  virals; are safe and effective.


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## oldiebutgoody (Nov 27, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Can you present any evidence that promoting vaccination and public safety constitutes "government propaganda"?
> 
> I'll wait ...




am still waiting in case anyone thinks only programmed robots think that preventive medicine is best ...


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## John cycling (Nov 27, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Can you present any evidence that promoting vaccination and public safety constitutes "government propaganda"?



That you're admitting they're doing it but still want evidence that they're doing it is your evidence.


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## oldiebutgoody (Nov 27, 2021)

John cycling said:


> That you're admitting they're doing it but still want evidence that they're doing it is your evidence.




The fact that you fail to back up your claims with clear and convincing evidence is proof of your failings.  Try again.


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## Shero (Nov 27, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The fact that you fail to back up your claims with clear and convincing evidence is proof of your failings.  Try again.


.
Well said


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## Ladybj (Nov 28, 2021)

suds00 said:


> i believe that we've already heard from knowledgeable medical people who have been working with similar viruses for years and those individuals have fund that the current treatment regimens ;including the vaccine and newly developed anti-  virals; are safe and effective.


You think that the current vaccines will protect the new variants that are on the horizon?  Will there be another vaccine in the future for the new variants.  I'm asking because I am a bit confused?


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## chic (Nov 29, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> You think that the current vaccines will protect the new variants that are on the horizon?  Will there be another vaccine in the future for the new variants.  I'm asking because I am a bit confused?


Didn't Pfizer say if the current vaccine proves ineffective against the Omicron (spelling) variant, they will have a new vaccine ready for distribution within 100 days. Leave it to Pfizer if there's money to be made. And how safe will this new vaccine be? Ready in 100 days? Either they planned, oops, prepared for this or...?


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## Knight (Nov 29, 2021)

I'm curious about what the death rate world wide would have been if no vaccine was developed .


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## squatting dog (Nov 30, 2021)

A vaccine mandate is your employer’s way of informing you they own you, like chattel slavery, 24/7. If you are lucky, they will give you enough for a roof and food (just like antebellum slaves). They will "doctor you" as though by veterinary care, as an animal, with no say over drugs administered you.
It’s is their way of declaring *ownership* over the bodies of their slaves, and a declaration that they are no longer an employer, but a slave-master.


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## Knight (Nov 30, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> A vaccine mandate is your employer’s way of informing you they own you, like chattel slavery, 24/7. If you are lucky, they will give you enough for a roof and food (just like antebellum slaves). They will "doctor you" as though by veterinary care, as an animal, with no say over drugs administered you.
> It’s is their way of declaring *ownership* over the bodies of their slaves, and a declaration that they are no longer an employer, but a slave-master.


A good way to beat that is to use all your expertise & start your own business.


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## chic (Nov 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> A good way to beat that is to use all your expertise & start your own business.


Too many restrictions to comply with to become successful going down that road. No one is getting around the vaccine mandate Permanently, that I have seen. We Are owned, at the moment.


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## Pepper (Nov 30, 2021)

chic said:


> Too many restrictions to comply with to become successful going down that road. No one is getting around the vaccine mandate Permanently, that I have seen. We Are owned, at the moment.


You're always owned, at any moment.  The powers that be........


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## Knight (Nov 30, 2021)

chic said:


> Too many restrictions to comply with to become successful going down that road. No one is getting around the vaccine mandate Permanently, that I have seen. We Are owned, at the moment.


In the News: First Generation Immigrants Make up 1 in 5 US Business Owners
Published: Jul 9, 2021 by Small Business Editor In Small Business News


It has been said the U.S. is the land of opportunity, and according to Score’s, The Megaphone of Main Street: Unsung Entrepreneurs, it still holds true. The report in this week’s roundup reveals 20% of All US Business Owners are First-Generation Immigrants. And when you take into account only 13% of the U.S. population are first-generation immigrants, it is impressive. 

Another group that dominates business ownership in the U.S. is people over the age of 55. Even though this group makes up 21% of the population, they account for more than half, or 50.9% of business owners. Veterans are also well represented, making up 9% of business owners while representing 7.6% of the U.S. population.

https://smallbiztrends.com/2021/07/small-business-news-roundup-july-9-2021.html

As of July 9, this year. Now we know who is to blame for those still working as slaves. Darn seniors & 1st. generation Immigrants. 

With some effort it's possible to overcome restrictions to become the "masters".


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## AnnieA (Nov 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> In the News: First Generation Immigrants Make up 1 in 5 US Business Owners
> Published: Jul 9, 2021 by Small Business Editor In Small Business News
> 
> 
> ...



Check back in 2023 after the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021 goes into effect in 2022. 1099 IRS reporting changes in the bill will knock a lot of the smallest of the small out.


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## win231 (Nov 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> A good way to beat that is to use all your expertise & start your own business.


How would owning your own business help?  You would still have to make sure your employees comply with vaccine mandates.


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## Knight (Nov 30, 2021)

win231 said:


> How would owning your own business help?  You would still have to make sure your employees comply with vaccine mandates.


You wouldn't be owned or be the "slave". Your business wouldn't necessarily mean that you employ people.


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## squatting dog (Nov 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> You wouldn't be owned or be the "slave". Your business wouldn't necessarily mean that you employ people.


Sometimes owning your own business can be just as bad. Red tape galore don't you know. Heck, After I retired, I ran 2 business's. One, ended up to be a large headache because of the need to have employee's. (ever try finding someone qualified, honest, and willing to work? a near impossibility). the second one was when the mayor of our small city asked me to run a wrecker for them as the nearest large wrecker service was some 40 miles away and our city was on a major state highway and couldn't afford to be blocked and shut down for any length of time. So, I went into the wrecker business. First came the expense of the truck, then came the wrecker business license, $$$,  then came the whopper... Insurance. $$$$ Had to carry a major liability insurance for the truck, separate insurance for whatever was on the hook, (or wheel lift), a policy for the impound-storage yard, (plus the mandatory 6" triple barb wire fence around it), and then, another policy (had to be bonded for this one) for the separate building to store and hold drug seizure vehicles in. Here's a good one, If I kept watch dogs in the yard and building, the insurance rates went up, because, are you ready for this, the chance of a criminal suing you increase's when dogs are involved.  
So, Lot's of red tape, criminal background check, and plenty of govt. intervention and $$$$'s  involved in what seemed like a fairly simple task Ehhh?


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## Ladybj (Nov 30, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Sometimes owning your own business can be just as bad. Red tape galore don't you know. Heck, After I retired, I ran 2 business's. One, ended up to be a large headache because of the need to have employee's. (ever try finding someone qualified, honest, and willing to work? a near impossibility). the second one was when the mayor of our small city asked me to run a wrecker for them as the nearest large wrecker service was some 40 miles away and our city was on a major state highway and couldn't afford to be blocked and shut down for any length of time. So, I went into the wrecker business. First came the expense of the truck, then came the wrecker business license, $$$,  then came the whopper... Insurance. $$$$ Had to carry a major liability insurance for the truck, separate insurance for whatever was on the hook, (or wheel lift), a policy for the impound-storage yard, (plus the mandatory 6" triple barb wire fence around it), and then, another policy (had to be bonded for this one) for the separate building to store and hold drug seizure vehicles in. Here's a good one, If I kept watch dogs in the yard and building, the insurance rates went up, because, are you ready for this, the chance of a criminal suing you increase's when dogs are involved.
> So, Lot's of red tape, criminal background check, and plenty of govt. intervention and $$$$'s  involved in what seemed like a fairly simple task Ehhh?


I agree.. owning a business is a headache within itself...tooo much Red Tape.


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## Knight (Nov 30, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Sometimes owning your own business can be just as bad. Red tape galore don't you know. Heck, After I retired, I ran 2 business's. One, ended up to be a large headache because of the need to have employee's. (ever try finding someone qualified, honest, and willing to work? a near impossibility). the second one was when the mayor of our small city asked me to run a wrecker for them as the nearest large wrecker service was some 40 miles away and our city was on a major state highway and couldn't afford to be blocked and shut down for any length of time. So, I went into the wrecker business. First came the expense of the truck, then came the wrecker business license, $$$,  then came the whopper... Insurance. $$$$ Had to carry a major liability insurance for the truck, separate insurance for whatever was on the hook, (or wheel lift), a policy for the impound-storage yard, (plus the mandatory 6" triple barb wire fence around it), and then, another policy (had to be bonded for this one) for the separate building to store and hold drug seizure vehicles in. Here's a good one, If I kept watch dogs in the yard and building, the insurance rates went up, because, are you ready for this, the chance of a criminal suing you increase's when dogs are involved.
> So, Lot's of red tape, criminal background check, and plenty of govt. intervention and $$$$'s  involved in what seemed like a fairly simple task Ehhh?


Strange that the percent of immigrants succeeding hasn't deterred them.  From my #97. 
Quote
"The report in this week’s roundup reveals 20% of All US Business Owners are First-Generation Immigrants."

You were asked not forced to run the wrecker business. I can appreciate that red tape is a factor but if a person feels that they are slaves then the only option IMO is to be a business owner. 

I have never owned a business but never felt I was a slave. The reason -- I applied for the job opening and accepted the conditions within. I moved on to higher better paying jobs & always left with knowing that I could ask for & receive a good recommendation. I feel sorry for people that have no way to change their situation.


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## Ladybj (Nov 30, 2021)

There are a few employees in my area that protested again company Mandates and won.  One large company lifted the Mandate. There may be more to follow.


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## squatting dog (Nov 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> Strange that the percent of immigrants succeeding hasn't deterred them.  From my #97.
> Quote
> "The report in this week’s roundup reveals 20% of All US Business Owners are First-Generation Immigrants."
> 
> ...


Don't mis-understand me, I retired from a great job. (high paying and more importantly, I loved it). I was just showing that something as mundane as a wrecker business can lead to all kinds of pitfalls. 
Another thing often overlooked when discussing Immigrant business owners is a lot of the time it involves the entire family and no outside employees. That makes it 100% easier to operate.


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## Pepper (Nov 30, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Another thing often overlooked when discussing Immigrant business owners is a lot of the time it involves the entire family and no outside employees. That makes it 100% easier to operate.


Very true.  Not only that, relatives come in on tourist visas and go home for awhile and come back to work.  Plenty of convenience stores in particular have this system.


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## win231 (Nov 30, 2021)

Shero said:


> Non, I would like to get him on my boat, throw him overboard and watch the frail little thing do a belly flap (bet he can’t swim), before feeding him to the sharks who won’t want him anyway


I think you mean "Belly _Flop_."


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## suds00 (Nov 30, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> You think that the current vaccines will protect the new variants that are on the horizon?  Will there be another vaccine in the future for the new variants.  I'm asking because I am a bit confused?


the doctors are saying that we have to wait to see if the vaccines are effective with the omicron variant. it may take 2 weeks to find out .pfizer states that they are working on a vaccine for omicron.


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