# Are there ANGELS?



## Vedaarya (Feb 1, 2017)

Everyone must have had experiences which might have adversely changed the path of their life if it not had been for the help from......HEAVEN?


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## Wilberforce (Feb 1, 2017)

yes


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## bluesunflower (Feb 1, 2017)

Vedaarya said:


> Everyone must have had experiences which might have adversely changed the path of their life if it not had been for the help from......HEAVEN?



I don't believe in external entities like angels or gods.


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 1, 2017)

Neither do I.


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## HazyDavey (Feb 1, 2017)

I believe there is..


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## exwisehe (Feb 1, 2017)

There are absolutely angels. I've been saved three times in my life when I was in great danger.  I attribute each one to my guardian angel.
The last was my bicycle accident in August.  I've already written about it on here.
I missed a concrete buffer by ONE foot. (an image flashed in my mind, while unconscious, that I HAD to miss it, so I must have)
I was out for an hour.  I don't know who reported me lying in the bushes, or how I got to the ER, but I'm thankful.
(the other 2 incidents are just as profound, but too much detail would be needed to relate them).  My daughter tells me she has seen an angel in her bedroom
She can describe it.  Very tall (about 8 ft) white, neither male nor female, but a very "inviting" being that was full of love.


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## RubyK (Feb 1, 2017)

Yes. I believe there are angels.


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## Falcon (Feb 1, 2017)

If it gives you comfort believing in them,  then, go for it.

I don't.


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## farmchild (Feb 1, 2017)

I haven't "seen" any physical appearance of an angel but I believe I have received the blessing of their intervention from time to time.  Sometimes I will be doing something and on accident I will do it in an uncustomary way...or I will accidently make a mistake in some process and notice the mistake after-the-fact and discover that the mistake actually brought about a quite improved result - it feels like an intervention, like something (outside of my own consciousness)  has "helped" me.  It's sort of AWESOME, hope it happens to you sometime.


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## jujube (Feb 1, 2017)

I'm pretty sure  my guardian angel looks like this a lot....


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 1, 2017)

Farmchild, that's not an Angel - it's serendipity.


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## maggiemae (Feb 1, 2017)

I like to think there is someone watching over you.


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## Stormy (Feb 1, 2017)

I haven't had any experiences or feelings of angels or spirits but I keep an open mind and hope to have contact with a departed loved one someday, so far nothing, not a believer yet


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## Dennis K (Feb 1, 2017)

Of late I have been taking the "Agnostic" attitude on such matters. Until proven to be,  I cannot believe, but on the other hand, until proven not to be, keep an open mind.


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## bluesunflower (Feb 2, 2017)

I am of the opinion humans are the real angels, gods and devils.


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## angelica (Feb 2, 2017)

Yes I believe in Angels!:love_heart: The ones I met had a look like ,you and me':angel:


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## Aurora (Feb 2, 2017)

In Catholic theology/philosophy from St. Thomas, angels exist in Heaven and they do not travel to earth
to visit. This is movie lore like It's A Wonderful Life. I don't know of any serious religion that claims that
angels travel to earth and visit people. Do you?
  Thought you'd like to know.


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## jerry old (Oct 12, 2019)

Interesting, valid vs invalid-we do have opinions, don't we.


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## Liberty (Oct 12, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> Interesting, valid vs invalid-we do have opinions, don't we.


Yes, in the Bible New Testament it says “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” Hmmm.


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## Mike (Oct 12, 2019)

I have heard that a fallen white feather is
an Angel who has come to look over you
and is telling you that he/she is there.

Mike.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Yes, in the Bible New Testament it says “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” Hmmm.


And in the Old Testament Abram and Sarai were visited by an angel with good news for them from God. In this context an angel is a messenger from God but otherwise indistinguishable from an ordinary person. Somehow they convey an important message that brings hope; hope that changes lives. Angels are heralds bearing personal messages and require no mediums to assist them.


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## norman (Oct 12, 2019)

I have experienced the spiritual presents of guardian angels.  If they did not exist I surely would be dead, of course I did a lot of things that could get you killed, not on purpose just stuff that happens in life.  I never have been aware of a physical presence, always a spiritual experience when I mentally was aware of possible death and made a frantic mental request for help, just glad that someone is watching over me.


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## Liberty (Oct 12, 2019)

Stormy said:


> I haven't had any experiences or feelings of angels or spirits but I keep an open mind and hope to have contact with a departed loved one someday, so far nothing, not a believer yet


Think it can be good to be a "healthy skeptic."


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2019)

When I was about six or seven I lived in a small apartment building with steps on the outside and an inside hallway with a staircase that had a door at at the bottom which was just about always open.

One day I was walking down that inside staircase and tripped and fell about half way down. I was pretty shaken up at the bottom when a dog came inside from the open door and came up to me and I hugged that sweet dog and when I felt better I let him go and he walked away. I  had never seen that dog before and never since although I spent a lot of time in that neighborhood. No one will ever convince me that that dog was not an angel with fur. It was such an emotional event that I'll never forget it.


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## RadishRose (Oct 12, 2019)

Alongside archangel Michael, Gabriel is described as the guardian angel of Israel, defending this people against the angels of the other nations.  The Gospel of Luke relates the stories of the Annunciation , in which the angel Gabriel appears to Zechariah and the Virgin Mary , foretelling the births of John the Baptist and Jesus ...


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## Gary O' (Oct 12, 2019)

Yes, I have a guardian angel

...and what a job he's had


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## Gary O' (Oct 12, 2019)

Olivia said:


> One day I was walking down that inside staircase and tripped and fell about half way down. I was pretty shaken up at the bottom when a dog came inside from the open door and came up to me and I hugged that sweet dog and when I felt better I let him go and he walked away. I had never seen that dog before and never since although I spent a lot of time in that neighborhood. No one will ever convince me that that dog was not an angel with fur. It was such an emotional event that I'll never forget it.



Reminds me of a like event.

When the boys were small, they and their mom would walk thru town to a friend's place.
One time they were walking back, by the laundromat when a strange man approached them, asked where the laundromat was.
They pointed, kept walking.
He followed them.
They passed a house that had a huge St Bernard sleeping on the porch.
When my wife and kids walked by, he raised his head, came out the gate and followed them, about a mile, between them and the stranger...all the way home.

Then turned and walked away.

Dogs don't just do that.


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## Keesha (Oct 12, 2019)

Of course


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Reminds me of a like event.
> 
> When the boys were small, they and their mom would walk thru town to a friend's place.
> One time they were walking back, by the laundromat when a strange man approached them, asked where the laundromat was.
> ...



Gives me goosebumps. For sure a fur angel in disguise.


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## toffee (Oct 13, 2019)

love the thread -and I truly believe in them 'they come in all shapes even a animal ...the closest I got to one nxt to me --was driving to my sis in the nxt county - not much on the road 'was doing about 50mph- then wham the car stopped dead in front of me 'knew for split second iam going to be dead or injured ' then felt like I was asleep and woke' the car in front that stopped was far up the road nearly out of sight -weird' but I knew someone was nxt to me that day!


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## terry123 (Oct 13, 2019)

Mike said:


> I have heard that a fallen white feather is
> an Angel who has come to look over you
> and is telling you that he/she is there.
> 
> Mike.


I believe it also.  Its a part of me just knowing that angels are watching over me, guiding me and helping me on this journey.


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## Liberty (Oct 13, 2019)

toffee said:


> love the thread -and I truly believe in them 'they come in all shapes even a animal ...the closest I got to one nxt to me --was driving to my sis in the nxt county - not much on the road 'was doing about 50mph- then wham the car stopped dead in front of me 'knew for split second iam going to be dead or injured ' then felt like I was asleep and woke' the car in front that stopped was far up the road nearly out of sight -weird' but I knew someone was nxt to me that day!


Toffee...one day my hub, and our business partner were driving out for lunch.  The partner was driving and I was sitting in the front seat beside him.  For some reason, I felt someone take my arm - like a reflex action - and fling it across his chest, which made him immediately slow down and almost stop.  

We were coming up to a traffic light and had the green light.
Flying thru the intersection on his right was a driver that had ran thru the red light going very fast.  If I hadn't done that he would have t-boned us on the driver's side.  He looked at me and I shrugged.  Now there's where your personal angel really comes in handy!


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## RadishRose (Oct 13, 2019)

Keesha said:


> View attachment 78072Of course


Perfect! What a cute caricature!


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## StarSong (Oct 13, 2019)

I don't believe nor disbelieve, but do have to wonder at how these stories spin out, human nature being what it is.  When people claim to be "saved" by God's blessings, divine providence, angels, etc., they loudly proclaim it and give the glory to God.  I get that.  As a frail species we are well aware of the mortal dangers that lurk around every corner and are enormously relieved when we think we've cheated fate.    

But what about the children who don't have dogs or humans suddenly intervene, and meet terrible endings at the hands of those evil strangers? 
What about the freak accidents that would have resulted in a survivable injury instead of blindness, full paralysis, or death, if only a few seconds or millimeters difference had occurred? 
What about the victims who didn't manage to escape the bullets of those mass shooters? 
What about the people who showed up to work on time and went down in the World Trade Center, or boarded those planes? 

Were their angels taking the day off? Did God opt to not shed His blessings on them because he didn't care or love them as much? 

Aye, there's the rub.


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## Liberty (Oct 13, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I don't believe nor disbelieve, but do have to wonder at how these stories spin out, human nature being what it is.  When people claim to be "saved" by God's blessings, divine providence, angels, etc., they loudly proclaim it and give the glory to God.  I get that.  As a frail species we are well aware of the mortal dangers that lurk around every corner and are enormously relieved when we think we've cheated fate.
> 
> But what about the children who don't have dogs or humans suddenly intervene, and meet terrible endings at the hands of those evil strangers?
> What about the freak accidents that would have resulted in a survivable injury instead of blindness, full paralysis, or death, if only a few seconds or millimeters difference had occurred?
> ...


My take...its Karma with a capitol K.  We are here for different reasons and timeframes and challenges. If you don't believe than you just don't believe. Its always your call.  Went through those questions many years ago and the answers that came to me in dreams and mental visions were so profound it completely changed my life.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 13, 2019)

Well put StarSong.  If you believe in a god, then you must accept that they are responsible for the bad things as well as the good.


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## CarolfromTX (Oct 13, 2019)

I've heard too many stories like some of the ones here not to believe. I have myself experienced moments when I listened to that still small voice in my head, and in doing so, avoided some bad things. And if I'm wrong, where's the harm? And if I'm right, and angels do exist, how cool is that?!


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## Gary O' (Oct 13, 2019)

StarSong said:


> What about the victims who didn't manage to escape the bullets of those mass shooters?
> What about the people who showed up to work on time and went down in the World Trade Center, or boarded those planes?
> 
> Were their angels taking the day off? Did God opt to not shed His blessings on them because he didn't care or love them as much?


I tend to look at it from another angle.

Life on this planet is a bitch
Stuff happens
Horrible stuff
Nobody is spared
*'he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust'*

When he intervenes, I believe it to be for a reason.....beyond being spared that day...way beyond


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## Catlady (Oct 13, 2019)

A guy I once dated told me that after we grow up and realize that our parents are not infallible or invincible, we have a need to believe in another protector and therefore invented ''God" (and his assistants, the angels).


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## squatting dog (Oct 13, 2019)

Pretty sure if I have one, they look like this.


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## Liberty (Oct 13, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I've heard too many stories like some of the ones here not to believe. I have myself experienced moments when I listened to that still small voice in my head, and in doing so, avoided some bad things. And if I'm wrong, where's the harm? And if I'm right, and angels do exist, how cool is that?!


It is said when you get a thought that feels like its just been "dropped" into you head, where guidance or understanding  is concerned, its the angels speaking.


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## Catlady (Oct 13, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Well put StarSong.  If you believe in a god, then you must accept that they are responsible for the bad things as well as the good.


I was raised as a Catholic, read about other religions, became an Agnostic, then became an Atheist but decided that the human body and the whole Universe is too complex to have just ''happened''.  So then read about Deism and am now firmly ensconced as a Deist.  It's the only ''religion'' that explains the fact of why there is so much beauty and goodness and so much pain and crimes and disasters in the world.  Our founding fathers were mostly Deists.

DEISM =  belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism). belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it  (that God created the universe and then walked away and let them be).


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## Lara (Oct 13, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Yes, in the Bible New Testament it says “Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” Hmmm.


Most of my life I've said from time to time, "Hmm maybe that was an angel", knowing that they look like ordinary human beings. But 3 months ago, for the first time, I was absolutely positive, without a doubt that I encountered 3 Angels, one female and 2 males...all on the same day, 7/11/2019. All at different times of the day and 3 different locations. All looking like regular human beings.

I had prayed 1 or 2 days before, "God, show me your presence in a BIG way so that I will know for sure you're really with me." I forgot about my prayer until 1 or 2 days later 7/11/19 after I encountered 3 angels.

1. The first angel was at 8:30am (I'm using age and race in descriptions of all 3 angels because I think the diversity of the angels is significant in knowing God loves us all equally and unconditionally...angels aren't all white with wings). I had never seen "Robin" before at our local grocery store (name was on her name tag) but the 30something pretty black female cashier, during checkout, said something to me that was a reminder of how God wants me to think always and forever.

I was so upset about a big tall strong muscular fit young man who had parked in a handicapped spot with no handicapped stickers on his high-off-the-ground shiny black truck. He checked out in front of me, then when I checked out, I ranted to Robin, the cashier, about the man. She smiled and calmly said, "Well, I just say God bless him. God is watching him so I don't have to. He's watching me, and you, and everyone." I said "Yes, and Lord knows I've done a few wrong things in my life." Robin said, "There you go, haven't we all." I said, "Thank you for the reminder". And she smiled that pretty smile and said, "We all need to remind each other don't we". I didn't remember my prayer from 1 or 2 days earlier.

2. The second angel at noon was a white male senior with faded jeans, plaid shirt, and mussed white hair, who came to me in the middle of a large store to say "Is this your money?" Unbeknownst to me, my purse was unzipped when I got out of my car in the big parking lot and it all fell to the ground. He had no cart and not holding any items to purchase. Then he disappeared before I could get his name. I still didn't remember my prayer from 1 to 2 days earlier.

3. The third angel at 4pm saved my life. Same day. I took 4 dogs to an old fenced-in track & field that was hidden and abandoned behind a closed school. It couldn't be seen from the road. I saw an old car parked near the field but no one inside. I scanned the fenced in field and not a soul was around (sometimes others run, walk dogs, etc) so I let all the dogs off their leashes, shut the fence gate, then ran and played ball with the dogs. Still not seeing anyone around.

It was 90 degrees and humid. The asphalt track was about 6" higher than the grass field so I tripped over the asphalt edge while running fast and my whole body fell hard onto the asphalt...flat on my face. I had a very painful broken shoulder, black eye, cut lip and elbow, blood and bruises all over, 2 hurt knees, ...and I couldn't move. My phone was in the car at the other end of the track & field. All of a sudden a man sat up who was laying on his back in the grass (even with the sun beating down and 90 degrees). He was maybe from a Caribbean island, maybe Trinidad. He had brown skin, a Jamaican type accent, very thin but firm muscle definition like a runner and dressed like a runner. He was gentle, kind, and that same beautiful smile that Robin, the cashier, had in the morning encounter. I told him he couldn't lift me because of my broken arm. He said, "That's no problem for me" and he took my good arm and pulled me up. I didn't feel it and I felt light as a feather while he pulled me up. I stared at my good arm in amazement that I didn't feel him pulling me up.

He said "I can do anything for you, just ask me". I couldn't drive. I couldn't gather up all the dogs. I could barely walk. He offered to drive me home in my car, and then walk himself 2 miles back to the track in the 90 degree heat. He said, "That's no problem for me." Finally, I said if you can get the dogs in the car, I will try to drive one-handed while you follow behind me in your car in case I can't drive (yes that old car was his). He did. I trusted him completely which surprised me. When we got to my house I asked him to get the 4 dogs in the house for me. He did but was careful not to enter further than the doorway. He was leaving when I offered him money. He laughed (as if that was a preposterous idea) while shaking his head no. I asked him for his name and he only said his first name. I only knew Robins first name too. All of a sudden, I remembered my prayer from 1 or 2 days ago.

Yes, I've heard people say, "Be careful what you pray for" but I'm grateful for the pain and suffering becuase I've experience God's presence and my relationship is stronger for it. For the next 2 months God has repeatedly shown me His presence while helping me and teaching me, but I won't go on and on. Or is it too late for that


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## terry123 (Oct 13, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I don't believe nor disbelieve, but do have to wonder at how these stories spin out, human nature being what it is.  When people claim to be "saved" by God's blessings, divine providence, angels, etc., they loudly proclaim it and give the glory to God.  I get that.  As a frail species we are well aware of the mortal dangers that lurk around every corner and are enormously relieved when we think we've cheated fate.
> 
> But what about the children who don't have dogs or humans suddenly intervene, and meet terrible endings at the hands of those evil strangers?
> What about the freak accidents that would have resulted in a survivable injury instead of blindness, full paralysis, or death, if only a few seconds or millimeters difference had occurred?
> ...


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## terry123 (Oct 13, 2019)

squatting dog said:


> Pretty sure if I have one, they look like this.
> 
> View attachment 78086


Still love that movie!!! One of my favorite angels!


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## Butterfly (Oct 13, 2019)

terry123 said:


> Still love that movie!!! One of my favorite angels!



Me, too!


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## terry123 (Oct 13, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I don't believe nor disbelieve, but do have to wonder at how these stories spin out, human nature being what it is.  When people claim to be "saved" by God's blessings, divine providence, angels, etc., they loudly proclaim it and give the glory to God.  I get that.  As a frail species we are well aware of the mortal dangers that lurk around every corner and are enormously relieved when we think we've cheated fate.
> 
> But what about the children who don't have dogs or humans suddenly intervene, and meet terrible endings at the hands of those evil strangers?
> What about the freak accidents that would have resulted in a survivable injury instead of blindness, full paralysis, or death, if only a few seconds or millimeters difference had occurred?
> ...


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## AZ Jim (Oct 13, 2019)

I believe in angels.  My sweet wife (RIP) is one.  How spooky life would be without the belief in a hereafter.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> God created the universe and then walked away and let them be.



Seems to me not all that different to Atheism.  The point of difference being what started off the creation of the universe in the first place.   If you say "God", then what created God and so on _in absurdum._


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## Mike (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Most of my life I've said from time to time, "Hmm maybe that was an angel", knowing that they look like ordinary human beings. But 3 months ago, for the first time, I was absolutely positive, without a doubt that I encountered 3 Angels, one female and 2 males...all on the same day, 7/11/2019. All at different times of the day and 3 different locations. All looking like regular human beings.
> 
> I had prayed 1 or 2 days before, "God, show me your presence in a BIG way so that I will know for sure you're really with me." I forgot about my prayer until 1 or 2 days later 7/11/19 after I encountered 3 angels.
> 
> ...


Wow Lara, those are some experiences, you have been very lucky
and learned something, I don't think that I ever met an Angel, yet
I still believe that they are watching over all of us.

There are many examples quoted, but you are the nearest to someone
that I know, even only on the internet, that has had such strong examples.

Mike.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Seems to me not all that different to Atheism.  The point of difference being what started off the creation of the universe in the first place.   If you say "God", then what created God and so on _in absurdum._


I agree with "what created God is absurd" since God wasn't created. He was, He is, and always will be. Words like "Infinity" and "eternal" are impossible to fathom with our finite minds. That's where faith steps in.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Most of my life I've said from time to time, "Hmm maybe that was an angel", knowing that they look like ordinary human beings. But 3 months ago, for the first time, I was absolutely positive, without a doubt that I encountered 3 Angels, one female and 2 males...all on the same day, 7/11/2019. All at different times of the day and 3 different locations. All looking like regular human beings.
> 
> I had prayed 1 or 2 days before, "God, show me your presence in a BIG way so that I will know for sure you're really with me." I forgot about my prayer until 1 or 2 days later 7/11/19 after I encountered 3 angels.
> 
> ...





Mike said:


> Wow Lara, those are some experiences, you have been very lucky
> and learned something, I don't think that I ever met an Angel, yet
> I still believe that they are watching over all of us.
> 
> ...


This is the first time in my life that I have had such a strong confirmation that there are angels walking among us. It's also the first time I've prayed beforehand for God to make His presence known to me in a BIG way. I sincerely prayed it from deep within me. If it had been just one angel that day I would have wondered if it was just a coincidence and not an angel. But there were *three *angels. Now that I think of it, "*3* times" the Bible indicates emphasis...

"The number *3* biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If there ever was a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number *3* was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject." 

Like when Jesus was with His disciples and told Simon Peter *3 *times to go and feed the sheep (sheep meaning Jesus' followers...in other words go and teach God's people) in John 21 15-17. Again in Acts 10:16 "and this happened *3* times".


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Most of my life I've said from time to time, "Hmm maybe that was an angel", knowing that they look like ordinary human beings. But 3 months ago, for the first time, I was absolutely positive, without a doubt that I encountered 3 Angels, one female and 2 males...all on the same day, 7/11/2019. All at different times of the day and 3 different locations. All looking like regular human beings.
> 
> I had prayed 1 or 2 days before, "God, show me your presence in a BIG way so that I will know for sure you're really with me." I forgot about my prayer until 1 or 2 days later 7/11/19 after I encountered 3 angels.
> 
> ...


Lara, that's a wonderful story, and yes, God does listen to you and give you reassurance. How fantastic to have 3 angels in your life in one day...the last one being your real "guardian" angel.  This keeps you in God's healing light.  Bet you felt that heavenly "glow" for days afterward and its something you will never forget for the rest of your life.  God bless!


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Thank you Liberty, and yes I still feel that glow and He's still showing me His presence. It's never happened like this in my life. That's why I've become annoying to the non-believers here in SF. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just can't stop talking about it. My relationship with God is so close that it permeates my every thought.

I thought about leaving SF because of the ugly backlashes I've received from one member. God bless her (sincerely). Another Christian member just left. But I enjoying on-topic sharing in appropriate threads so I'm staying for now. Thank you to those members who are annoyed with me but have chosen to ignore me vs anger and have allowed me freedom of speech and religion. I know there are quite a few and I've noticed you're leaving me be. Thank you.


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## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

bluesunflower said:


> I don't believe in external entities like angels or gods.




 Agree here.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Thank you Liberty, and yes I still feel that glow and He's still showing me His presence. It's never happened like this in my life. That's why I've become annoying to the non-believers here in SF. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just can't stop talking about it. My relationship with God is so close that it permeates my every thought.
> 
> I thought about leaving SF because of the ugly backlashes I've received from one member. God bless her (sincerely). Another Christian member just left. But I enjoying on-topic sharing in appropriate threads so I'm staying for now. Thank you to those members who are annoyed with me but have chosen to ignore me vs anger and have allowed me freedom of speech and religion. I know there are quite a few and I've noticed you're leaving me be. Thank you.


Lara, I also suspect there are lots of "believers" here on the forum that may be shy or just not feel comfortable in voicing their opinions.  Never let anyone "run you out of Dodge"...lol.  Especially not for simply being a kind and open with your beliefs.  After all, that's what this country is about, and its definitely an asset in communication!


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## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I don't believe nor disbelieve, but do have to wonder at how these stories spin out, human nature being what it is.  When people claim to be "saved" by God's blessings, divine providence, angels, etc., they loudly proclaim it and give the glory to God.  I get that.  As a frail species we are well aware of the mortal dangers that lurk around every corner and are enormously relieved when we think we've cheated fate.
> 
> But what about the children who don't have dogs or humans suddenly intervene, and meet terrible endings at the hands of those evil strangers?
> What about the freak accidents that would have resulted in a survivable injury instead of blindness, full paralysis, or death, if only a few seconds or millimeters difference had occurred?
> ...




  I have to shake my head when , after a storm or ?? when survivors are interviewed on the news and say things like , thank god we're alive, I thank god that my family was spared, etc. & so-on

  Well then do these same people also thank god for the people the next street over that were killed? 

Seems to me if he did some, he did it all.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> I have to shake my head when , after a storm or ?? when survivors are interviewed on the news and say things like , thank god we're alive, I thank god that my family was spared, etc. & so-on
> 
> Well then do these same people also thank god for the people the next street over that were killed?
> 
> Seems to me if he did some, he did it all.


There are a lot of things that don't make sense down here in the gross dense matter, lol. Yet we always want to think we completely understand everything, in order to make human judgments.

With that said, being thankful is a basic part of human consciousness.  Hopefully, we will understand all the whys and hows and wherefores on the other side.  Until then, its like Jack
Nicholson said "its all gravy from now on".  Enjoy as best we can.


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## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Lara, I also suspect there are lots of "believers" here on the forum that may be shy or just not feel comfortable in voicing their opinions.  Never let anyone "run you out of Dodge"...lol.  Especially not for simply being a kind and open with your beliefs.  After all, that's what this country is about, and its definitely an asset in communication!


Don't assume it's only "believers here on the forum that may be shy or just not feel comfortable in voicing their opinions."  Many folks are shy for many reasons to express beliefs of all kinds.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> I agree with "what created God is absurd" since God wasn't created. He was, He is, and always will be.


Logically, anything that exists must have had a beginning, so if something didn't have a beginning, it can't exist.  That's where logic and faith part company.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Don't assume it's only "believers here on the forum that may be shy or just not feel comfortable in voicing their opinions."  Many folks are shy for many reasons to express beliefs of all kinds.


You are so right, Pepper.  Of course that is a fact, and to each his or her own.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Logically, anything that exists must have had a beginning, so if something didn't have a beginning, it can't exist.  That's where logic and faith part company.


You don't think that the Almighty Creator of the Universe and Earth and all that's within it, the Intelligent Designer,  cannot do anything beyond man's logic?


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## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

There is only one thing, One Thing, that annoys me about in-depth spiritual discussions, and that is the notion that American Christians are a persecuted class.  Except for that, everything's on my table and Anything Goes!  

These discussions can be truly fascinating.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Pepper said:


> There is only one thing, One Thing, that annoys me about in-depth spiritual discussions, and that is the notion that American Christians are a persecuted class.  Except for that, everything's on my table and Anything Goes!
> 
> These discussions can be truly fascinating.


Yes, the discussions can be very enlightening.  So many times, being open to new understanding is a creating process. Like my dad said "if you keep an open mind, then something new might just drop in!


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## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Seems to me not all that different to Atheism.  The point of difference being what started off the creation of the universe in the first place.   If you say "God",* then what created God and so on *_*in absurdum*._



THAT is the main reason why I rejected Atheism and embraced Deism, it's the only religion that makes any kind of sense.  Perhaps it's only my puny human mind, but I cannot comprehend what is beyond the beginning and the end of the universe in time and in space.  There must also be a reason so much violence and disasters are allowed without God's intervention.   A paradise or hell after death is only a human theory, we do NOT know for sure.  Free will?  Perhaps it's the free will of the perpetrator of a violent act, but is it the free will of their victim also to be victimized?  Does a child or innocent person deserve to be tortured or starved or burned or left in hot cars like in so many stories in the news.  So where is God during all these horrible acts?  If he is protecting the right of ''free will'' of the perpetrator, what about the right of the victim to not be victimized?


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> ...where is God during all these horrible acts?  If he is protecting the right of ''free will'' of the perpetrator, what about the right of the victim to not be victimized?


I posted in another thread about why God allows good people to suffer so I apologize for any repetition. Here's the thing; regarding death, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing...even for children. The world is full of sin. To take a child out of this sinful world and bring her Home is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond.

Regarding suffering, I don't know all the answers but there are over a hundred different reasons listed in the Bible as to why good people suffer. Sometimes human suffering is a result of natural consequences ie. man's own bad health choices. Or, sometimes it's like when God allowed my accident to happen so he could humble me in order to get my attention as He began to show my His presence in my life in a big way...which is exactly what I prayed for 1 or 2 days before...and He is still showing me and teaching me for which I'm grateful. But my suffering was nothing like suffering that you mentioned. I don't understand that either.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> THAT is the main reason why I rejected Atheism and embraced Deism, it's the only religion that makes any kind of sense.  Perhaps it's only my puny human mind, but I cannot comprehend what is beyond the beginning and the end of the universe in time and in space.  There must also be a reason so much violence and disasters are allowed without God's intervention.   A paradise or hell after death is only a human theory, we do NOT know for sure.  Free will?  Perhaps it's the free will of the perpetrator of a violent act, but is it the free will of their victim also to be victimized?  Does a child or innocent person deserve to be tortured or starved or burned or left in hot cars like in so many stories in the news.  So where is God during all these horrible acts?  If he is protecting the right of ''free will'' of the perpetrator, what about the right of the victim to not be victimized?


Think we love to not believe but still to have God to kick around and blame when things we do not understand happen.  Human beings take no blame?  God always must intervene or there is "no" God


PVC said:


> THAT is the main reason why I rejected Atheism and embraced Deism, it's the only religion that makes any kind of sense.  Perhaps it's only my puny human mind, but I cannot comprehend what is beyond the beginning and the end of the universe in time and in space.  There must also be a reason so much violence and disasters are allowed without God's intervention.   A paradise or hell after death is only a human theory, we do NOT know for sure.  Free will?  Perhaps it's the free will of the perpetrator of a violent act, but is it the free will of their victim also to be victimized?  Does a child or innocent person deserve to be tortured or starved or burned or left in hot cars like in so many stories in the news.  So where is God during all these horrible acts?  If he is protecting the right of ''free will'' of the perpetrator, what about the right of the victim to not be victimized?


Yes, isn't it convenient that we always have God to blame and kick around...perhaps that's how football was invented.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> I posted in another thread about why God allows good people to suffer so I apologize for any repetition. Here's the thing; regarding death, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing...even for children. The world is full of sin. To take a child out of this sinful world and bring her Home is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond.
> 
> Regarding suffering, I don't know all the answers but there are over a hundred different reasons listed in the Bible as to why good people suffer. Sometimes human suffering is a result of natural consequences ie. man's own bad health choices. Or, sometimes it's like when God allowed my accident to happen so he could humble me in order to get my attention as He began to show my His presence in my life in a big way...which is exactly what I prayed for 1 or 2 days before...and He is still showing me and teaching me for which I'm grateful. But my suffering was nothing like suffering that you mentioned. I don't understand that either.


Yep, like it or not, suffering often makes us stronger.  So many things we don't understand, but lets "keep on keeping on".  A couple hundred years ago they didn't believe in anything they couldn't see.  We are inching higher, by pure faith.


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## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Think we love to not believe but still to have God to kick around and blame when things we do not understand happen.  Human beings take no blame?  God always must intervene or there is "no" God.  Yes, isn't it convenient that we always have God to blame and kick around...perhaps that's how football was invented.



So, it's okay to praise and thank him when things are good but not alright to blame him when things are bad?  He's either responsible for both or not responsible for either good or bad.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> So, it's okay to praise and thank him when things are good but not alright to blame him when things are bad?  He's either responsible for both or not responsible for either good or bad.


No. Actually, Satan is responsible for all the bad. God has power over Satan but sometimes God chooses to allow it for purposes according to His perfect plan which we may not understand now but in time we will. And in time all things will turn out fair and according to His divine plan.


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> So, it's okay to praise and thank him when things are good but not alright to blame him when things are bad?  He's either responsible for both or not responsible for either good or bad.


How about simply celebrating life?  How about just not judging?  How about realizing how lacking we are in patience, each and every day.  Who among us can do that?


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## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Since this thread is "Are There Angels", want to share a quick story with you all.   My husband and I have enjoyed several decades of married bliss.  Its as though we are "soulmates" with a couple small exceptions. He's and engineer and an introvert and I'm more outgoing.  He did not warm up to "angels".  

I told him that perhaps sometime he would have a more realistic view of them.  He ask why and I said, just keep an open mind.  Not too long ago, I was outside in the garden and he came downstairs after doing the laundry (yes, aren't I lucky).  He had a funny look on his face and I ask him what was up.  He said  the hairs on the back of his neck had stood up, as he'd just met the "spook"...lol.  

Now that "spook" has been around this house and property for many years.  So glad they finally met.  The point here is, until it happens to YOU, its just hearsay.  Keep an open mind, and maybe you'll get "up close and personal" with your angel.  Then you will "know".


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 14, 2019)

This is a continuation of the "There is a God" debate. Those, who believe, believe. Their "proof" is their belief. Those, who don't believe, see no proof of a deity's existence. As long as one's beliefs are not foisted on others, the debate should go on.


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## Gary O' (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Words like "Infinity" and "eternal" are impossible to fathom with our finite minds. That's where faith steps in


It's funny, we tend to not be taken in by a nice story (the gospel) because we put a lot of trust in our limited intellect.
I know this, been there, many years.
I mean I can fathom forever 'unending existence' on the back end, but no beginning?
Thinking too much on that sends me to a nip or long pull of single malt.

If one truly desires to know if someone is runnin' things, it's all there, in The Book.
Daniel and The Revelation contains enough proof, and they are substantiated thru out the rest of The Book.
*"Come let us reason'*

But, it takes some study...and time

Most are not willing  

It's a power of choice thing


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## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Seeing is believing and I ain't seen any.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> ...As long as one's beliefs are not foisted on others, the debate should go on.


Could you please expound on that thought? I mean how would we know how the other member will take our posts and feel "foisted upon" until after it's posted and read? Doesn't it depend on how the posts are received by the other member reading it? Some members "Like" in agreement with someone's belief and unfortunately others take offense.


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## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara, I believe that you are really sincere and appreciate your faith. But, to me,what you're doing now is not about your faith, but about convincing others why they should follow yours. That's not what these forums are all about. Same with politics.


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## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> Could you please you expound on that thought? I mean how would we know how the other member will take our posts and feel "foisted upon" until after it's posted and read? Doesn't it depend on how the posts are received by the other member reading it? Some members "Like" in agreement with someone's belief and unfortunately others take offense.
> 
> I never feel I'm "foisting my belief on others" but I'm sure those who disagree with my belief and can't articulate why, feel frustrated and in extreme cases don't like me for it. I think it's their responsibility to disengage themselves when that happens to them. No?



"don't like me for it."

 Quite the opposite here......I admire you for your 'stick-with-it-ness'  You have strong faith/belief....Hang in there ! I just happen to disagree with you but..........who knows, someday I may be proven wrong.


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## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> Seeing is believing and I ain't seen any.



You've never heard of angels unaware?


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## Gary O' (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> "don't like me for it."
> 
> Quite the opposite here......I admire you for your 'stick-with-it-ness' You have strong faith/belief....Hang in there ! I just happen to disagree with you but..........who knows, someday I may be proven wrong.



I most  like this statement

rgp, whatever conclusion you end up with, that thought is commendable


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## AZ Jim (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You've never heard of angels unaware?


Angels Unaware is a Organization founded by Roy and Dale rogers.  As I recall it would have been founded in the very early 40's.  They had a little daughter named Robin who had Down's Syndrome.  Robin only lived 2.5 years and was the reason for the Rogers founded "Angels Unaware".


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## healthfreak (Oct 14, 2019)

Vedaarya said:


> Everyone must have had experiences which might have adversely changed the path of their life if it not had been for the help from......HEAVEN?




I have had a very early experience with an angel as a child. But life-changing? I will not claim that.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> Lara, I believe that you are really sincere and appreciate your faith. But, to me,what you're doing now is not about your faith, but about convincing others why they should follow yours. That's not what these forums are all about. Same with politics.


I'm not surprised that you have judged me in this way since you also mentioned politics as well...yes I'm aware there is a clique of gals who hate me for my conservative opinions as well as my faith. But that politics forum has been closed for a long time and yet they still haven't buried the hatchet. They just want to think the worst of my intentions. Holding grudges, denying freedom of speech and religion is why there is so much hatred in our country.

I do appreciate your transparency with me though. And I appreciate that you were more polite about it than the others. I'm aware of the other forum and the thread they started titled "Lara" where they roasted me. A couple of guys stood up for me and I thank them for their courage to be different in the crowd.

To say that "what I'm doing is not about my faith" is really odd though...because that's all it's about...my faith and nothing else. I am not trying to "convince others to follow me". That is totally against God's Word. He says, if they don't want to listen walk away. I feel there are at least a handful here who do want to listen so I won't walk away but i encourage you to walk away from me and my posts...put me on ignore so you won't be tempted to read them. I don't hold any animosity toward you for being open with me. I'm only disappointed that you don't know me very well. thank you for letting me know.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> "don't like me for it."....Quite the opposite here......I admire you for your 'stick-with-it-ness'  You have strong faith/belief....Hang in there ! I just happen to disagree with you but..........who knows, someday I may be proven wrong.


Thank you for this supportive post. I really appreciate your courage to speak up. Your reaction to heated Forum Discussions is a healthy approach that I also share.


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## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Judgment cuts both ways.

I just like if politics is not allowed because of the rancor it generates, then why not religion, too? You don't agree that it generates that? If not, just read this thread.


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2019)

This thread is about angels and personal beliefs. If that does not open the door to personal expressions of faith and religion they I don't see what does. Such expressions are legitimate in this context. Rancor has no place here.


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## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

And I hate myself for continuing this thread. It seems like if you're any kind of believer you have to keep pounding at other people to believe as you do. It turns people off, way more than it brings you converts. Okay, I get it. When you die and get to heaven, you can tell how you tried to best to get all the other sinners to heaven.


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## Gary O' (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> I just don't like if politics is not allowed because of the rancor it generates, then why not religion, too?



I sure can't argue with that

Most all us here, having lived 50 or more years, have beliefs or opinions set in concrete


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

I


Olivia said:


> I just like if politics is not allowed because of the rancor it generates, then why not religion, too? You don't agree that it generates that? If not, just read this thread.


I've read and participated in this thread. Yes, I have noticed that some seem agitated to read discussions debates and opposing opinions of others but it's how we learn...it's interesting and I love learning more and growing. We don't have to agree on everything. Trade and I don't agree on anything...absolutely nothing...so we just keep our distance and scroll on by. I respect him for doing that and I do it too. We get along great at a distance Do you really want everyone to agree in discussions? What's there to discuss then?


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## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> I
> I've read and participated in this thread. Yes, I have noticed that some seem agitated to read discussions debates and opposing opinions of others but it's how we learn...it's interesting and I love learning more and growing. We don't have to agree on everything. Trade and I don't agree on anything so we just keep our distance and scroll on by. I respect him for doing that and I do it too. We get along great at a distance Do you really want everyone to agree in discussions? What's there to discuss then?



This is nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing. The point is the topic itself. And you know it. Who you agree with or don't at a distance is your problem, not mine. It has nothing to do with anything other then your insistence or proselytizing.


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## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm sorry Olivia


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## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You've never heard of angels unaware?


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## drifter (Oct 14, 2019)

I don't know. Don't think I've had any help from an angel lately, but I did see one this morning., I think I did!
View attachment 78218


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## drifter (Oct 15, 2019)

But, I think I saw one this morning. I think I did!


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2019)

Drifter, that's not an angel; that is a fairy.
You see fairies after indulging in too much moonshine.


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## Knight (Oct 15, 2019)

Quite a unique idea that there are angels that seem to pop up when needed.
There probably are angels in these cities but I wonder what determines who gets that help. 
25 Most Dangerous Cities In The US In 2019
https://www.escapehere.com/destination/25-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-us-in-2019/
Kind of puzzling. Children being innocent one would think would get preference. Susan Smith's three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alexander, or the 5 Yates children could have used an angel or two.

@79 I haven't experienced any contact in my life with an angel, I'm just hopeful that I qualify for one if  situation happens that could use one.


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## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Knight said:


> Kind of puzzling. Children being innocent one would think would get preference. Susan Smith's three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alexander, or the 5 Yates children could have used an angel or two.
> 
> @79 I haven't experienced any contact in my life with an angel, I'm just hopeful that I qualify for one if  situation happens that could use one.


I definitely don't believe in angels, just humans who help their fellow men.   I've read many times where there is a horrific accident of some sort and someone risks their life to help the victim(s) and when the victim wants to thank them they have disappeared and no one knows their name or even what they looked like.


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## CarolfromTX (Oct 15, 2019)

Olivia said:


> This is nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing. The point is the topic itself. And you know it. Who you agree with or don't at a distance is your problem, not mine. It has nothing to do with anything other then your insistence or proselytizing.



And the folks who don't believe in angels, aren't they sort of proselytizing too? And aren't you being insistent as well?  I think so. And I don't care. Asking whether one believes in angels is a pretty innocent question, IMO. If it turns ugly, then that's on whoever posts the ugliness. Otherwise, it's harmless enough.


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## Sasha5113 (Oct 15, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> I sure can't argue with that
> 
> Most all us here, having lived 50 or more years, have beliefs or opinions set in concrete


Isn’t it frustrating that just as we’re old enough to argue intelligently, we lose that ability!


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## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Even though I don't believe in angels, I enjoy watching the tv show ''Highway to Heaven'' once in a while.  It's a quality show and I've always been a fan of Michael Landon.   And the weirdest thing is that he reminds me so much physically of my ex-husband when he was younger and whom I've never regretted divorcing.  Life is strange.


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## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Sasha5113 said:


> Isn’t it frustrating that just as we’re old enough to argue intelligently, we lose that ability!


I don't know what you're trying to say.  All of us, including my opponents, have debated (or argued), intelligently and civilly on this thread.  Please quote where any of us have been insulting or disrespectful.    We just disagree on this subject and that is what debating is all about.


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## Mrs. Robinson (Oct 15, 2019)

My close friend since high school is a veterinarian,and she always says,when she has to euthanize a pet,that the angels come for them.I always thought she just said that,until the other day,when she said that in vet school they had to euthanize a horse,and she clearly saw 3 angels come for him. She is Catholic,so she must not know of the St.Thomas philosophy-or doesn`t believe it!

As far as the white feather falling? I only heard of this a couple of years ago and have seen so many instances of this that it`s difficult for me not to believe. The most recent one was on another forum where I have been for 13ish years....we lost one of our "girls" to cancer last year and she was a very talented crafter. One of the girls was getting married and was asking if anyone knew where she could get "decorated" ballerina slippers. Well,Tonya said that she could make her some,to just send her the slippers. She decorated a beautiful pair of slippers for her. A couple of months after her passing,Kate walked into her closet and there was a white feather laying on top of the slippers. She had no feathers (that she knew of) in her closet.


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## Sasha5113 (Oct 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say.


Sorry. I have a bad case of foot in mouth disease, which crops up every time I try to be funny. Had no intention of riling.


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## drifter (Oct 15, 2019)

Dang, those wings fool me every time. No, I don't believe in angels.


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## chic (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm not certain, but I think you have to believe in God first to receive angel experiences, and once you do, you can never forget them. Angels are kindly and helpful. They stand out, but look like humans. You can only tell they're angels because they can just vanish at will which is an extraordinary thing to behold. I haven't seen one in many many years and I do miss them. They are a comfort.


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2019)

Sasha5113 said:


> Sorry. I have a bad case of foot in mouth disease, which crops up every time I try to be funny. Had no intention of riling.


Don't give it a second thought. It happens all the time on the net. It's hard to read a person's intention without seeing their face. Tho' everything in large upper case text is a bit of a giveaway.   

I added the smilie to express my mood and to avoid any misunderstanding.


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## Barneyhill (Oct 15, 2019)

Vedaarya said:


> Everyone must have had experiences which might have adversely changed the path of their life if it not had been for the help from......HEAVEN?


  Yes I believe there are beings that watch over us especially in time of personal peril. What really convince me of this was an experience my children and I had in October 2001. My daughter was a paper carrier she became a papergirl to make extra money for her upcoming college years. She didn't have a driver's license so I drove her out each morning. This particular morning the printing presses broke down so we were later than usual for delivery. It was between 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. when we arrived at the home this particular of a customer.
 He was in his 80's and he didn't burn any front porch lights. We had to walk up in the dark and drop his paper into a box by the door because someone on his street would steal his newspaper if it was tossed by his front door. 

I was helping my daughter with delivery that morning as I walked away from this customer's house a man approached me from the side of the house his face was partially covered with a scarf and he was holding a gun.
He told me to walk into the alley in back of our customer's house. About that same time a car turned the corner on this street and the bright lights  hit this thug. The headlights frightened him and he turned and ran away.

I look back at that terrible incident and always say God sent angel from heaven in the form of a driver of a car. This person will never know that particular turn he or she made was timed and he or she saved my life. Their bright car  headlights were the eyes of an angel that scared away a terrible and evil man.
Yes I believe angels are real!  Very real!


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## Knight (Oct 16, 2019)

Some really nice stories throughout this thread. With a little over 7 billion people on our planet I wonder what the selection process is for help from angels?


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 16, 2019)

There isn't one.  Our lives are punctuated by random and unpredictable events.  If something bad happens we were unlucky, or in the wrong place at the wrong time.  If something good happens, it was because of good luck or an angel or a god.  Yeah, sure.   Things just happen.  Someone wins the lottery - hundreds of thousands get nothing.  Guess their angel was on vacation when the numbers were drawn.  
There re no angels, but there are good people out there.


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## fmdog44 (Oct 16, 2019)

Watch little children at play. There is your answer.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm amazed about why religion keeps cropping up in these threads. Why do those, who believe, have the need for everybody else to believe what they do? I'm an atheist, and I could care less if you think like me. Yet, these religious themed threads are always posed by believers. Why?


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## Repondering (Oct 17, 2019)

When my mother was dying 9 months ago she claimed there were "Beings" in the room beckoning to her, beings who "shined".  I was there and didn't see them but I don't disbelieve her.  Hypothetically, if there were angels welcoming her to the next life then they weren't there for me and didn't show themselves to me.  It's possible Mom was hallucinating too.  I'm suspending my judgment until I see them myself someday.  Although I do like the idea of entities from the other side shepherding across.....call them angels if you wish.


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## Gary O' (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Yet, these religious themed threads are always posed by believers. Why?


Why not?
Most of us here tend to share the good things in their lives.
Kids, puppies, cats. mates, travel, garden, funny things.
If one believes in God, well it's usually a good thing too.

Beats hell outa reading someone moaning about their ills.
Shit, we've all got those.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm so happy with my god that I just have to tell you about my god. My god gives me comfort. My god is not your god. My god is so much better that what you believe. I just have to share how wonderful, my god is, not your beliefs though. I believe my god is the best, so unless you believe in my god, your beliefs aren't the best. I believe my god is better that anything you believe in, and because I believe, I can say you are going to hell if you don't belief in what I believe in. If you don't believe in my god, your daughters will be prostitutes  (Yes, someone, stood in my doorway and shouted that at me.) My personal religion is so wonderful , I have to impose my beliefs on you, without regard for any religious  views you may have. My god is so much better than your poor  beliefs, so that gives me the right to wail about it over, and over, and over,.  without any regard or respect for your. beliefs. My belief is so strong, you have to believe what I believe-that is my gift to you. What you believe is wrong, only what I believe is correct.


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## Gary O' (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm so happy with my god that I just have to tell you about my god........


So, this atheism gig..... *where do I sign up???!!!*


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

Sorry, Gary,  Unlike some Christians, who cannot tolerate alternative beliefs, you will have to construct your own religious ideation. I don't impose my personal beliefs on anyone. Nor do I intrude and rudely preach about my belief.  I respect your right to believe what you want,, as long as you don't impose your religious beliefs on me.


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm amazed about why religion keeps cropping up in these threads. Why do those, who believe, have the need for everybody else to believe what they do? I'm an atheist, and I could care less if you think like me. Yet, these religious themed threads are always posed by believers. Why?


I think the bigger question is why do self proclaimed atheists as yourself repeatedly participate in threads about religion and then complain we have a "religious thread" in the forum? Just because a person discusses their faith doesn't mean they are out to convert you or anyone else in the thread. Are you maybe a bit paranoid?

Or they don't have anything to say on topic so they whine in order to join the thread? I'm not trying to be mean, I sincerely don't understand it. And it only creates trouble.

No one is imposing anything on you because you have a choice to spend your time in the gazillion other threads here that aren't about religion. When you point your finger, 3 fingers point back at you.


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## Gary O' (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Sorry, Gary,.....



No worries

I get it

I thought agnosticism was precarious

I'll tell ya, this believing in God thing can be a bitch

Hell, if I were god, I'd have cleaned the slate, take up sumpm else


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## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Everyone likes to talk about interesting stuff.  And, like it or not, religion is interesting stuff because it is so important to the history of mankind, the actions we took and why.  I did not raise my child religiously, BUT, I certainly did inform about the various religions, stories, characters, etc.  Did not want my child to be ignorant of that which so many are aware.


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## Liberty (Oct 17, 2019)

chic said:


> I'm not certain, but I think you have to believe in God first to receive angel experiences, and once you do, you can never forget them. Angels are kindly and helpful. They stand out, but look like humans. You can only tell they're angels because they can just vanish at will which is an extraordinary thing to behold. I haven't seen one in many many years and I do miss them. They are a comfort.


This post so reminds me of an experience I had many years ago.  God wasn't an "issue" with me, but honestly couldn't seem to "wrap my head" around angels.  I started meditation in my 20's and have kept it as a daily practice all these years.  One day, the 90's, in deep meditation an angel appeared to me out of the blue.  It was the most innocent looking thing I'd ever seen, much more than a baby even.  Can't explain that right so won't try.

I'd been doing quite a bit of TV and radio interviewing during this period and one day, was on the "wait" line feed for on the air (radio).  When you are on this feed, you can hear the guest in front of you - hear their whole segment, and I was fascinated, as this was an "angel expert", so they said.  I ask the moderator if I could ask her a question and she cut me in, as it was a "call in" program.  

Related the tale of seeing the angel  to her (on the air, lol) and she said "oh, you saw the Hummingbird Angel, the wings moved very fast, like with the colors of the rainbow, right?  Yes, I got a bit excited that she knew exactly what I'd seen. She said "that angel will bring other angels.  The reason you saw it, is its a Cherub and you were near the throne." 

Later on, at home I was looking through art books and all at once, there was Rubens Cherub paintings.  OMG.  Now don't get me wrong...the one dimensional Cherubs didn't or couldn't look exactly like what I'd seen, as this was from the higher dimensions and so fantastically multi-structured compared to a  single medium painting rendering, but it was so close, remember thinking, "he must have seen them too, to be able to portray such a likeness in the flesh".


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## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

chic said:


> I'm not certain, but I think you have to believe in God first to receive angel experiences........


What if.................these experiences we are speculating upon have no reliance to a god?  What if they exist without this presence, just because they DO.?


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

Why is it that  some Christians are so deaf as to their proselytizing? Why do some Christians believe it is their right to prattle on about their faith? Why do they join nonreligious forums, and repeatedly interject their Christian theology into threads? Why is it some Christians ignore, and disrespect the religious views of others, who are also using this forum. Why can't some Christians understand others are disrespected by intrusion of their  Christian religious views?
When some Christians in this forum, are quoting Biblical scripture and  Christian theological ideation, it is proselytizing.


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## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Why is it that  some Christians are so deaf as to their proselytizing? Why do some Christians believe it is their right to prattle on about their faith? Why do they join nonreligious forums, and repeatedly interject their Christian theology into threads? Why is it some Christians ignore, and disrespect the religious views of others, who are also using this forum. Why can't some Christians understand others are disrespected by intrusion of their  Christian religious views?


Because..............they were all taught to spread the Gospel, the Good News................that's the basic of their faith, so in reality, they can't shut up!


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## Knight (Oct 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Why is it that  some Christians are so deaf as to their proselytizing? Why do some Christians believe it is their right to prattle on about their faith? Why do they join nonreligious forums, and repeatedly interject their Christian theology into threads? Why is it some Christians ignore, and disrespect the religious views of others, who are also using this forum. Why can't some Christians understand others are disrespected by intrusion of their  Christian religious views?



fuzzybuddy IMO this particular thread is religious in nature in the sense that it's about belief in angels. Angels being part of the US that a supernatural being supposedly made humans in his image. Between Neanderthal species & the 25,000 year old skeletal remains & the early Upper Paleolithic human skeleton from the Abrigo do Lagar Velho (Portugal) and modern human emergence in Iberia https://www.pnas.org/content/96/13/7604 the image might not be what angels look like. 

I've always wondered. If that supernatural being was so angry with his 1st. shot at creating man in his image [whatever that might be] that he murdered all but Noah & his family. Why not kill them too and start over? Wouldn't it make sense the murders that take place daily around the world since that family was saved be because of the original creator/murderer


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Knight said:


> ...this particular thread is religious in nature in the sense that it's about belief in angels. I've always wondered. If that supernatural being was so angry with his 1st. shot at creating man in his image [whatever that might be]Why not...start over?


Because God isn't a quitter. He had a perfect plan and finally came to forgive man from His sin without punishment but with love if man so chooses. I'm just answering your question...not trying to convert anyone.


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## Knight (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Because God isn't a quitter. He had a perfect plan and finally came to forgive man from His sin without punishment but with love if man so chooses. I'm just answering your question...not trying to convert anyone.


That sounds good until murdering all humans except Noah & his family is thought about.  Then there is the death of all the other life forms except those on the arc.  As plans go that sounds pretty horrible to me.


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## Liberty (Oct 17, 2019)

Knight said:


> That sounds good until murdering all humans except Noah & his family is thought about.  Then there is the death of all the other life forms except those on the arc.  As plans go that sounds pretty horrible to me.


What if death in the physical sense was actually a "healing"...to all.


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Because God isn't a quitter. He had a perfect plan and finally came to forgive man from His sin without punishment but with love if man so chooses. I'm just answering your question...not trying to convert anyone.



If God was not a quitter, why punish everyone but Noah and his family?  He could have asked ''saintly'' Noah to help the others become more saintly instead of wiping them out.  And since the others were being punished for having ''sensual desires'', didn't Noah and his family also have sensual desires since they did ''procreate"?  And the world has ALWAYS been corrupt and filled with violence, that wipeout has not solved anything.  And why punish all the animals not on Noah's ark because of man's "immoral excesses"?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Noah was a righteous man and walked with God. Seeing that the earth was corrupt and filled with violence, God instructed Noah to build an ark in which he, his sons, and their wives, together with male and female of all living creatures, would be saved from the waters. Noah entered the ark in his six hundredth year, and on the 17th day of the second month of that year "the fountains of the Great Deep burst apart and the floodgates of heaven broke open" and rain fell for forty days and forty nights until the highest mountains were covered 15 cubits, and all earth-based life perished except Noah and those with him in the ark.

In Jewish legend, the kind of water that was pouring to the earth for forty days is not the common, but God bade each drop pass through Hell of Gehenna before it fell to earth, and the 'hot rain' scalded the skin of the sinners. The punishment that overtook them was befitting their crime. As their sensual desires had made them hot, and inflamed them to immoral excesses, so they were chastised by means of heated water.[18]

*


 

1896 illustration of the symbol of the rainbow, which God created as a sign of the covenant

After 150 days, "God remembered Noah ... and  the waters subsided" until the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat. On the 27th day of the second month of Noah's six hundred and first year the earth was dry. Then Noah built an altar and made a sacrifice, and God made a covenant with Noah that man would be allowed to eat every living thing but not its blood, and that God would never again destroy all life by a flood.


*


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Knight...I agree that all the violence in the Old Testament makes me uncomfortable too. It definitely was horrible. I don't spend as much time in the OT as I do in the NT for that reason, but that's not to say I don't believe it. I do. And this is the best reasoning I can come up with...

1. man had turned their backs on God except Noah and obedience, honor, respect, following God is a big deal to God 
2. God's whole purpose of creating man was for man to love Him and to fellowship with Him 
3. God tried to get their attention but man chose to continue to sin
4. God doesn't look at death as bad. Suffering is another thing. There are more reasons for suffering than we can fathom.
5. I agree with Liberty's post above
6. As I've said before we are only passing through this life in a blink and then Home for eternity.
There are more reasons...again, too many to fathom.


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## Knight (Oct 17, 2019)

Liberty said:


> What if death in the physical sense was actually a "healing"...to all.


What if's are great. What if God's plan was for mankind to invent weapons to kill innocents to heal them? As population increased could the plan include mankind getting better at inventions to increase healing. Like wars, mass shootings, daily murders.  Lesser part of the healing plan biological weapons less brutal but just as effective. 

Were the angels present during all those healing deaths ?


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## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Knight said:


> What if's are great.


All this speculation is reminding me of my college days, about 50 years ago.  A BS session.  All that's missing is the booze and the weed.  Good to see we haven't matured much since then.


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> If God was not a quitter, why punish everyone...wiping them out?...And the world has ALWAYS been corrupt and filled with violence, that wipeout has not solved anything....God made a covenant with Noah that...God would never again destroy all life by a flood


Correct He will never flood the earth again. I don't mean to sound as though I'm being light when I say...according to prophecy, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. And of all the prophecies that have already been filled, none have been wrong. You're seeing the world going down the tubes with all the hatred, violence, disrespect for our environment, chaos, etc....and it's going to get worse but the Book of Daniel and Revelations tells us what's going to happen eventually...and finally.


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## Olivia (Oct 17, 2019)

The Plague killed 50 million people in the 14th century, or 60 percent of Europe's entire population.

I guess God didn't love the other 40 percent.


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Olivia, that's not how God works. He loves everyone and loved us while we were still in the womb He says. How else is God going to bring His children home if they never have a physical death? Talk about overpopulation. I don't think you mean "killed". I think you mean "suffered" and I have gone over that previously.

Knight, you are forgetting about Satan who is responsible for Evil. But God could stop him is he wanted to or was answering prayer. Yes, God allows Satan to do evil sometimes.


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## Knight (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara how can we relate this to angels? 

1. man had turned their backs on God except Noah and obedience, honor, respect, following God is a big deal to God
2. God's whole purpose of creating man was for man to love Him and to fellowship with Him
3. God tried to get their attention but man chose to continue to sin
4. God doesn't look at death as bad. Suffering is another thing. There are more reasons for suffering than we can fathom.

Maybe the angel Satan? 

If so, then if killing all but Noah was the answer wouldn't killing that rogue angel be more effective? Wouldn't it be reasonable for an all powerful creator capable of doing what is described be able to cleanse his creation to return to his original concept/plan.


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## Olivia (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Olivia, that's not how God works. He loves everyone and loved us while we were still in the womb He says. How else is God going to bring His children home if they never have a physical death?



God only knows, and Lara does, too.  It seems she knows everything for anybody else. A belief is just that, a belief. And so, see how that sounds? Like I know what everyone else believes about beliefs?  So I change it to say that my belief is my own. Not a fact. That's all I've been trying to say. Presenting as undisputed facts is to me, the problem with some of the religious posts here.


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

I know very little in comparison. When I post, I post what I've read in God's Word...the Bible. If you don't like how I'm presenting God's answers then don't read my posts...it's that simple


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Knight said:


> Lara how can we relate this to angels?
> 
> 1. man had turned their backs on God except Noah and obedience, honor, respect, following God is a big deal to God
> 2. God's whole purpose of creating man was for man to love Him and to fellowship with Him
> ...


Satan is a FALLEN angel and the leader of the Demons of the Underworld of all Evil.
God will not kill Satan (although He could). God's plan includes good and evil because He didn't want to create Robots. He created man to be able to choose between good and evil. And to choose to turn away from temptations in order to be obedient to God, to choose to love God, and fellowship with God.


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## Olivia (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> I know very little in comparison. When I post, I post what I've read in God's Word...the Bible. If you don't like how I'm presenting God's answers then don't read my posts...it's that simple



Oh, does that say that in the Bible, too?  I just hope people don't think Christianity is how you present it. Fundamentalism turns a lot of people off. To me that's your version of Christianity. But nevertheless, you have a right to post that here. I just disagree with posting about religion that one's religion or version of religion is the only valid one on the planet. It is not!


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## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

I let you have the last word again Olivia...we are two very different people.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 17, 2019)

When people talk of man being 'created', just what to they mean?   The earth came into existence  approx 4.5 billion years ago, with hominoids evolving over around 6 million years to arrive at early _homo sapiens_ around 160,000 years ago.  Just a mere click of the fingers in cosmological time.   Man did not just suddenly appear and research shows that modern humans are genetically inconsistent with having arisen from a single pair.  

I think that if you are to read the bible, you must do so with the belief that it was written by people who did not have the same knowledge as we have today. I can understand this and it is why I feel that while the Bible is an interesting historical text, it simply should not be taken literally.


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

The Old Testament is the bible of the Jews, Muslims, and Christians.  The New Testament was embellished and toned down and humanized to please the followers of Jesus.  They were both written by men, not God.


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## gennie (Oct 17, 2019)

I have an open mind to the possibility but am ambiguous about actual physical existence of angels but I have a question to put to this discussion.  Over the past year, several extremely unusual/unlikely but very  serendipitous events have happened in my life.  Unplanned. unlikely, no human intervention sort of things that presented situations that called for an unusual course of action that simply seemed 'right' at the time.   Angel intervention or ??????


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> When people talk of man being 'created', just what to they mean?



I'm a Deist.  To me, creation means that God created the universe, all its planets and stars and the inhabitants of those planets, and then watched them but did not interfere.  It is the only thing that makes sense why there is so much violence and cruelty and he does nothing to punish the perpetrators.  Since we humans cannot fathom anything without a beginning and an end, Deism also explains eternity.  Only that creator knows and understands what lies beyond our human understanding of the visible universe.  I also believe it's egotistical that we believe we were "made in the image of God'' (how narcissistic).  There must be other life among the planets, do they all look like us (and God)?  God is more than likely without form, just an energy being, everywhere and aware of everything and everyone.


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## 1955er (Oct 17, 2019)

I was raised Frisbeeterian. We don't believe in death, you just end up stuck on a roof somewhere.


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## Invictus (Oct 17, 2019)

As an intelligent logically thinking man I can't possibly believe in this supposedly omnipotent benevolent Hebrew deity who also condoned slavery, rape, murder, and even killed innocent babies and children...Seems like primitive people always created deities that conveniently shared all their sick twisted morals and practices.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

About angels. As an atheist, well,............ But one thing has amazed me is if you go back in history way before the birth of man, there's no God. It is a purely natural world. Plants don't need a God. Animals don't need a God. Dirt, rocks, sky, etc.-don't need a god. There's a purely natural way the universe was formed. We have plausable evidence of that formation. Nobody can point to any physical evidence of a deity. Then later,  when man arrived, there was a concept of deities, so did man create gods?  I have railed against some preaching and proselytizing their Christian beliefs in this forum. But the concept of a deity, as expressed in this forum has been only a Christian one.  But Christianity is not the only concept of a deity on this planet. How do you reconcile all those gods and opposing religious ideologies? They can't all be right. Which leads me back to angels. If you believe in them, then you believe in them.  But your belief is no better than anyone elses, no matter how many biblical verses or theology one can spout.


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## chic (Oct 17, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> There isn't one.  Our lives are punctuated by random and unpredictable events.  If something bad happens we were unlucky, or in the wrong place at the wrong time.  If something good happens, it was because of good luck or an angel or a god.  Yeah, sure.   Things just happen.  Someone wins the lottery - hundreds of thousands get nothing.  Guess their angel was on vacation when the numbers were drawn.
> There re no angels, but there are good people out there.



There's a difference between good luck, even extreme luck like winning mills in the lottery, and an angel experience. When you've had an angel experience you're never the same. It helped me to understand a bit about what some of the biblical characters felt after an angel encounter. It's very real and has the power to change your life.


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

chic said:


> When you've had an angel experience you're never the same. It helped me to understand a bit about what


Of the examples of ''angel experiences'' that I've read, like Lara's way back on this thread, the experiences are about people that have been kind to you or said something nice or happened to be around to help you in some way.  Those are kind and helpful people, even people who put their life on the line to save you from disaster, like that ranger on the news yesterday who pulled this guy from a car seconds before a train hit his car.  Yet, religious people call them angels.  Are your angel experience about good humans trying to help?  I've met many of them but never thought of them as ''angels''.  I would believe them as angels if I see them disappear into air after they help me, only then.


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## Warrigal (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> All this speculation is reminding me of my college days, about 50 years ago.  A BS session.  All that's missing is the booze and the weed.  Good to see we haven't matured much since then.


This thread does seem to have left the planet.


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## Sunny (Oct 18, 2019)

> And the folks who don't believe in angels, aren't they sort of proselytizing too?



I don't think so, Carol. My understanding of "proselytizing" is trying to convert someone else to one's religious beliefs.  Saying you do not share those beliefs to someone who is proclaiming them to be the truth is not proselytizing, it's just expressing skepticism.

Otherwise, someone could say the tooth fairy really exists, and if you say, "No, she doesn't," you are proselytizing.


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## rgp (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> I don't think so, Carol. My understanding of "proselytizing" is trying to convert someone else to one's religious beliefs.  Saying you do not share those beliefs to someone who is proclaiming them to be the truth is not proselytizing, it's just expressing skepticism.
> 
> Otherwise, someone could say the tooth fairy really exists, and if you say, "No, she doesn't," you are proselytizing.



 Isn't your last sentence just denying ? There is no hint of trying to convert/persuade..........

From Wiki..........

{ Proselytizing }
 "_the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another."_


   Yeah I know........fighting with everyone....LOL!!


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## Knight (Oct 18, 2019)

Lara said:


> Satan is a FALLEN angel and the leader of the Demons of the Underworld of all Evil.
> God will not kill Satan (although He could). God's plan includes good and evil because He didn't want to create Robots. He created man to be able to choose between good and evil. And to choose to turn away from temptations in order to be obedient to God, to choose to love God, and fellowship with God.


Are you sure that was the plan? I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree.  By choosing to eat that tells me there was a flaw in a perfect creation.  Why would a being supposedly capable of creating a universe and humans fail to create something with no flaws? Maybe even more puzzling. Why continue to keeping alive the very beings he was so angry with?  Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.


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## chic (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> Of the examples of ''angel experiences'' that I've read, like Lara's way back on this thread, the experiences are about people that have been kind to you or said something nice or happened to be around to help you in some way.  Those are kind and helpful people, even people who put their life on the line to save you from disaster, like that ranger on the news yesterday who pulled this guy from a car seconds before a train hit his car.  Yet, religious people call them angels.  Are your angel experience about good humans trying to help?  I've met many of them but never thought of them as ''angels''.  I would believe them as angels if I see them disappear into air after they help me, only then.ave had



Yes, and that's what I did see and I wasn't stoned or drunk at the time. My life was not in danger, but I was alone and in serious distress and the person did disappear without a trace or footprints in the snow, which there would have had to have been if the being who helped me was 100% human in the sense we know it. Give me a scientific explanation of how a human could not leave footprints in freshly fallen snow?


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

chic said:


> Yes, and that's what I did see and I wasn't stoned or drunk at the time. My life was not in danger, but I was alone and in serious distress and the person did disappear without a trace or footprints in the snow, which there would have had to have been if the being who helped me was 100% human in the sense we know it. Give me a scientific explanation of how a human could not leave footprints in freshly fallen snow?


I would like more information, it's severely lacking in your post, perhaps you don't want to say because of privacy.  That's okay if you don't, but I can't have an opinion if I don't know all/most of the facts.

Why were you in distress?  How did the angel appear, did it walk through the door or appear out of thin air? What did it look like?   Did it communicate and how, verbally or with ESP?  How did it help you with your problem?  How long was it there?  All in all, it was either a true angel or you imagined it since you were in distress and since it did not leave footprints in the snow.

Again, you don't have to answer any of my questions, but for me to believe it was a "real angel'' I would need more info than you supplied.


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Knight said:


> I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree.
> 
> Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.


I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''.  Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general?  If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with ****** organs?  I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame.   If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available?  Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.

The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel.   Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional.  Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife.  When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.


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## Liberty (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''.  Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general?  If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with ****** organs?  I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame.   If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available?  Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.
> 
> The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel.   Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional.  Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife.  When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.


You know, I've wondered why Eve just didn't kill the darn snake.


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Liberty said:


> You know, I've wondered why Eve just didn't kill the darn snake.


Ah, the poor snake, blamed for all the world's ills because it was an unwitting imaginary actor in the bible.  Just like the goats personify Satan with cloven hooves.  The ancient Jews even had a ritual where they abandoned a goat in the desert to die, carrying the sins of the village, that's how we got the word ''scapegoat''.


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## Liberty (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> Ah, the poor snake, blamed for all the world's ills because it was an unwitting imaginary actor in the bible.  Just like the goats personify Satan with cloven hooves.  The ancient Jews even had a ritual where they abandoned a goat in the desert to die, carrying the sins of the village, that's how we got the word ''scapegoat''.


Now that "scapegoat" thing is really interesting...right up there with the virgins being tossed into the volcano's to appease the "volcano gods".


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## Sunny (Oct 18, 2019)

Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise."  In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.

PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.

Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge."  Some things never change.


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## rgp (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise."  In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.
> 
> PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.
> 
> Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge."  Some things never change.




  I miss understood......my bad !

  LOL, about the snake...I have a friend...[yeah believe it or not it's true]  that will not kill a snake. Not due to their place in nature, bug/rodent eaters , and such.......But it having something to do with the religious aspect of it ???


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.



I once worked with Robert, a really nice young guy that I respected and admired because of his great work ethics.  He was also very religious, and of course, we got into that discussion.   I asked him how the original two men and one woman managed to multiply, was it incest?  He didn't know, said he would ask his pastor.  The answer was that it WAS incest but the taboo against incest came much later when the dangers of inbreeding were discovered.  You would think that God would have foreseen that problem. 

 When I asked Robert that question I had not yet read that item about the nearby village.  I have read the bible here and there and now and then and always put it away in cynicism.   I also can't remember if only Cain or he and Abel went looking for a wife at that village.  I believe that Adam lived to be 900 years and his sons were up there in years before they wanted a wife but can't remember how old they were.


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## Gary O' (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> Adam lived to be 900 years and his sons were up there in years before they wanted a wife but can't remember how old they were.


Dang, that a l-o-n-g time, considering the good ol' USA is not even 300 years old...and we're up there with over 3 million folks.

Interesting dialogue


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## Liberty (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, I agree with you on this. My last sentence that you were referring to begins with "Otherwise."  In other words, I was saying that denying or doubting someone else's assertions is not the same thing as proselytizing. Carol implied that it was.
> 
> PVC, that question about how Cain managed to find a wife, since the only woman alive on the planet at that time was his mother, is one that humorously comes up in religious classes and discussion groups all the time. Obviously, the authors needed a better editor. They could have put in a sentence saying that a nearby village somehow magically appeared.
> 
> Liberty, about the snake, he sounds to me like an early personification of the modern con man. "Psst, the rich guys don't want you to know this, but just take a bite of this apple here (subscribe to my service, etc.) and you will be one of the insiders with secret knowledge."  Some things never change.


you know Sunny...it has been said the snake was a actually a  beautiful visual , not like what we think of as snakes, and it was only after that @#$% apple eating binge that the snake became the snake we know today, so you may very well be spot on!


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

Knight said:


> Are you sure that was the plan? I remember Adam & Eve were not supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge. No choice between good & evil just a directive not to eat from one particular tree.  By choosing to eat that tells me there was a flaw in a perfect creation.  Why would a being supposedly capable of creating a universe and humans fail to create something with no flaws?W Maybe even more puzzling. Why continue to keeping alive the very beings he was so angry with?  Seems obvious the evil was still there in the family that was left.


Not for you Knight but for the highly irritated unbelievers....Disclaimer: Must I preface my every post with "I'm answering questions and confusions about God/Bible by using God's own words in the Bible? I'm not trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. I'm not even giving my opinion. I'm giving God's opinion from His Word to questions asked. If you don't want answers direct from the source/God, then don't ask. I would post corresponding scripture but it's time consuming and not appreciated by the tough crowd usually.

Yes God directed Adam & Eve not to eat the apple...but the Snake/Satan/Evil/Sin tempted Eve to eat it. Eve therefore made a choice between Good & Evil/Sin....Satan IS the Snake. Satan is a Fallen Angel....whereas God is the Father for man and creator. He wants to be respected, obeyed, and loved as a Father. There was no flaw in creation because God wanted both Good & Evil so man had to be able to choose between Good/Love/God...and Evil/Satan/RejectingGod. Without choice man would be incapable of showing love for God or anyone. God didn't create the Universe with flaws. It was His plan. And God is not the author of confusion.

Your last question Knight..."why did He keep man alive when He was so angry with them?" Just like an earthly Father loves his children but can still be angry when they choose what they know to be wrong. Don't forget he free gift of forgiveness for those who believe in the New Testament that wasn't in place in the Old Testament. And don't forget the difference between physical death and spiritual death.


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## Warrigal (Oct 18, 2019)

rgp said:


> Isn't your last sentence just denying ? There is no hint of trying to convert/persuade..........
> 
> From Wiki..........
> 
> ...


Snap. I was about to post the same definition.


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## Sunny (Oct 18, 2019)

> The answer was that it WAS incest but the taboo against incest came much later when the dangers of inbreeding were discovered.  You would think that God would have foreseen that problem.



PVC, yeah, you would think!  

About whether Cain went alone to the village looking for a wife, or if Abel went with him, wasn't Abel dead by then?  I think Cain killed him before that.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 18, 2019)

Sorry , Lara, you said, "I'm not trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. I'm not even giving my opinion. I'm giving God's opinion from His Word to questions asked.". Yes, you are trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. You are giving your opinion about God and His Word. That is your interpretation, your opinion, and your belief. Your interpretation, your opinion, and your belief are yours, and not anymore valid than anyone else's.   You stated, " If you don't want answers direct from the source/God, then don't ask". You are not God.


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> I've always had a problem with that ''tree of knowledge''.  Was that knowledge about sex or knowledge in general?  If God didn't want them to have sex, why make them with ****** organs?  I think it had to do with sex because after eating the applle they were made to wear clothes and knew the feeling of shame.   If it was general knowledge, why have a ''tree with the knowledge" available?  Sounds like he was playing mind games with them.
> 
> The evil was there in the family that was left, since Cain killed Abel.   Sounds like that ''first family'' instead of being perfect was quite dysfunctional.  Also, they were supposed to be the first created yet when Cain was ready for a family he went to some town and found a wife.  When the hell were THOSE people created, no mention of them until that trip.


God made man to procreate so yes he wanted them to have sex. But "tree of knowledge" wasn't sex knowledge. It was God's omniscient all-knowing knowledge. God didn't play "mind games" but created the mind so man could choose to be for Him or against Him.


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> ...you are trying to change minds/convert/proselytize. You are giving your opinion about God and His Word...You are not God.


I agree that I'm not God . I am posting answers from the Bible. Have you read the Bible? If not then how do you know the answers aren't in there?


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

Regarding Cain likely marrying his sister or niece or great-niece but God did not forbid this until much later.
The short answer is:
The human genetic code has become increasingly “polluted” over the centuries as genetic defects are multiplied, amplified, and passed down from generation to generation. Adam and Eve did not have any genetic defects, and that enabled them and the first few generations of their descendants to have a far greater quality of health than we do now. Adam and Eve’s children had few, if any, genetic defects. As a result, it was safe for them to intermarry. And therefore not frowned on.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 18, 2019)

I would still come back to the "creation" of "man".  If we thought that Adam & Eve could understand God's instruction, then they were presumably Homo Sapiens..  However accepted knowledge is that they were not uniquely created, but evolved over millions of years from early hominoids.  

Oh I just give up...  Let me quote some words of Sir David Attenburough ....
"If somebody says to me I believe every word of the Bible is true, *you can’t argue against that degree of irrationality*…"


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

CaptLightning said:
			
		

> Oh I just give up... Let me quote some words of Sir David Attenburough..."If somebody says to me I believe every word of the Bible is true, you can’t argue against that degree of irrationality…"


Every unbeliever says that. No surprise there.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 18, 2019)

Lara, Your beliefs are yours,  as my beliefs are mine.  You are not God. Your interpretation of the bible is exactly what it is , *your interpretation.*  That is what *you* believe. You can spout verse and theology, but it all comes down to that is what *you *believe. The fact that you hold those beliefs doesn't mean that I have to believe them. Nor does it mean that yours is the *only* interpretation of the bible. Nor does it mean others can;t have opposing theories, and interpretations. You may have read the bible, but you are not God.


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

Of course you don't have to believe me. God gave you a mind to make your own choices...I've said that over and over. Who do you think I am...Jim Jones shoving Kool-Aid down your throat saying follow me? Do you really believe I want to control you? I don't even know you. Are you telling me I haven't got the right to share anything I'm thinking or have read? Do you believe in free speech? Do you believe in freedom of religion? Do you believe I have any rights?  To tell me I think I'm God because I've read the Bible sounds like something a kid on a playground would say. Why do you waste your time reading my posts when you don't give a rats ass what I have to say? I certainly don't care if you ignore my posts. Please do.

Sorry, I think I just lost my cool here.


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

I just found an article about Adam and Eve and the possibility of incest and the answer is yes.  About the town where Cain found a wife, biblical scholars believe that's where Cain found his wife because the bible says after Abel's murder:   "Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."  However, the bible only mentions his wife once after the birth of their first son, Enoch, and does not say who the wife was, it's assumed she was one of his sisters.

https://aleteia.org/2019/03/11/how-did-cain-find-a-wife/


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## Warrigal (Oct 18, 2019)

Lara said:


> Every unbeliever says that. No surprise there.


Lara, not every Christian holds your view of biblical literacy. I host a weekly bible study at home and our minister is someone who takes the bible and biblical scholarship very seriously. None of us take the view that every word in the bible represents literal truth. For example, the Genesis stories are accepted as mythological or allegorical texts so most of the arguments that have been raging seem rather pointless to us. We reflect on the meaning and look for truths within the stories that can help up chart our course in modern times. Nevertheless we are all committed followers of Jesus.  We believe in him and the gospel teachings.

Last Sunday one of our hymns began with the opening lines

_We limit not the truth of God
To our poor reach of mind,_

and the repeated refrain after each verse is

_The Lord hath yet more light and truth
  To break forth from His Word._

This is an old hymn, written in 1835, that acknowledges that we may think we understand everything but the truth is that, as Paul said in his letter to the church at Corinth, we see life through a darkened glass and will never know it all in our life time but we all understand what love is and that is our mission.

Reflecting on the parable of the sower - perhaps it is time to leave the stony ground and find more receptive soil for the seed ?


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## Sassycakes (Oct 18, 2019)

*I believe in Angels . Some that you can't see and some that are human beings but do things that make me feel they are angels also. I realized just today that a woman that is a friend of my nieces goes to my older Sister's house everyday to help my Sister care for her son who is on Hospice at home. The woman has a hard life herself yet she spends hours everyday helping my sister. She never asks for anything she does everything out of the goodness of her heart. To me she is an Angel.*


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 18, 2019)

Lara, Please do not leave. Of course, I don't believe in the bible, I'm an atheist. But I do feel that you use this forum to propagate your religious views. And you believe, that what you believe is the whole truth;, and you are going to tell the world about. Read your posts. It's hard to know who is speaking you, or God. You have never said, this is what I believe. You state things as fact-but they are your beliefs. I don't think you are aware of how abrasive that sounds. I may be overly sensitive, but I don't like being dismissed as some jackass nonbeliever.


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## Liberty (Oct 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> I just found an article about Adam and Eve and the possibility of incest and the answer is yes.  About the town where Cain found a wife, biblical scholars believe that's where Cain found his wife because the bible says after Abel's murder:   "Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."  However, the bible only mentions his wife once after the birth of their first son, Enoch, and does not say who the wife was, it's assumed she was one of his sisters.
> 
> https://aleteia.org/2019/03/11/how-did-cain-find-a-wife/


Ok, who were the "daughters of men" in the Bible?  The sons of God looked upon the "daughters of men...".


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Ok, who were the "daughters of men" in the Bible?  The sons of God looked upon the "daughters of men...".


Yes, that really grabbed me, I have no idea what it means. 

It sounds like something out of the Greek Mythology, or the Mesopotamiam religion, or the Anunnaki the ancient gods of the Sumerians, or even the rogue planet of Nibiru.   I strongly believe that the Sumerian religion inspired the writing of the bible.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also the writings of Zecharia Sitchin which are regarded as ''pseudohistory'':
Zecharia Sitchin claimed that the Anunnaki were actually a race of extraterrestrial beings from the undiscovered planet Nibiru, who came to Earth around 500,000 years ago in order to mine gold.[72][73][74] According to Sitchin, the Anunnaki genetically engineered _homo erectus_ to create modern humans to work as their slaves.[72][73][74] Sitchin claimed that the Anunnaki were forced to leave Earth when Antarctic glaciers melted, causing the Flood of Noah,[75] which also destroyed the Anunnaki's bases on Earth.[75] These had to be rebuilt and the Nephilim, needing more humans to help in this massive effort, taught them agriculture.[75] Ronald H. Fritze writes that, according to Sitchin, "the Annunaki built the pyramids and all the other monumental structures from around the world that ancient astronaut theorists consider so impossible to build without highly advanced technologies."[72] Sitchin also claimed that the Anunnaki had left behind human-alien hybrids, some of whom may still be alive today, unaware of their alien ancestry. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki


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## RadishRose (Oct 18, 2019)

Some one told me once that angels mated with the daughters of men (human women) producing giants.


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## Lara (Oct 18, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Lara, Please do not leave. Of course, I don't believe in the bible, I'm an atheist. But I do feel that you use this forum to propagate your religious views. And you believe, that what you believe is the whole truth;, and you are going to tell the world about. Read your posts. It's hard to know who is speaking you, or God. You have never said, this is what I believe. You state things as fact-but they are your beliefs. I don't think you are aware of how abrasive that sounds. I may be overly sensitive, but I don't like being dismissed as some jackass nonbeliever.


I never said I was "leaving"...but it's not out of the question. I never "propagate my religious views" in threads but I do share my religious views in the threads about something religious...like angels. If I can't post my views then you can't either. Yes. I believe that what I believe is the truth. Why would I post things I don't believe and are false? Why shouldn't I "tell about it". It's funny that you said to me "It's hard to know who is speaking you, or God" because I often pray and ask God to give me the right words at the right time". Sorry but that accusation gives me great joy. And you can't tell that what I say is what I believe? Do you seriously want me to post "this is what I believe"every time??? I assumed you could figure that out. And I never called you a "jackass nonbeliever". I would never do that. I respect other people's religions...even your atheist religion. Anybody else want to kick me around before I go have dinner with my daughter?

I'm sorry to be so firm but some of you must admit you've been mean and one person's thread was removed because of it. I'm no Angel (keeping on topic) but I'm not the zealot you make me out to be. I just love God and Jesus and I'm unapologetic. I won't mask who I am. So scroll on by if you wish.


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Sons of God and the daughters of men = from the Hebrew Bible:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
— Genesis 6:1–4, 

This passage has had two interpretations in Judaism, (Seth is the third son of Adam, after Abel got killed)

Offspring of Seth: The first references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain are found in Christian and rabbinic literature from the second century CE onwards e.g. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. In Judaism "Sons of God" usually refers to the righteous, i.e. the children of Seth.
Angels: All of the earliest sources interpret the "sons of God" as angels. From the third century BCE onwards, references are found in the Enochic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls (the Genesis Apocryphon, the Damascus Document, 4Q180), Jubilees, the Testament of Reuben, 2 Baruch, Josephus, and the book of Jude (compare with 2 Peter 2). This is also the meaning of the only two identical occurrences of bene ha elohim in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6 and 2:1), and of the most closely related expressions (refer to the list above). In the Septuagint, the interpretive reading "angels" is found in Codex Alexandrinus, one of four main witnesses to the Greek text.
Rabbinic Judaism traditionally adheres to the first interpretation, with some exceptions, and modern Jewish translations may translate bnei elohim as "sons of rulers" rather than "sons of God". Regardless, the second interpretation (sons of angels or other divine beings) is nonexistent in modern Judaism. This is reflected by the rejection of Enoch and other Apocrypha supporting the second interpretation from the Hebrew Bible Canon.


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## peppermint (Oct 18, 2019)

I believe in God...My Father almighty....I don't go to church most anymore....But I pray every night and pray for all that have gone in my life...
God know's my plight....


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## Sunny (Oct 18, 2019)

Time for a little music.
"Methuselah lived nine hundred years
Methuselah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin'
When no gal will give in
To no man what's nine hundred years?"
    From the song It Ain't Necessarily So, in Porgy and Bess

Obviously, years were counted differently back then.  Or maybe they had some secret vitamin that we just don't know about?
To get to a serious question, since incest had to take place within the world of Biblical stories, I wonder when the prohibition against it started?
I can't think of anything I've ever heard of in the Bible prohibiting a man from lying, say, with hi sister. It might have been perfectly normal thousands of years ago.  So then, when did the prohibition start, and why?


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> To get to a serious question, since incest had to take place within the world of Biblical stories, I wonder when the prohibition against it started?
> I can't think of anything I've ever heard of in the Bible prohibiting a man from lying, say, with hi sister. It might have been perfectly normal thousands of years ago.  *So then, when did the prohibition start, and why?*



After Moses =
It seems that, by the time of Moses, the human genetic code had become polluted enough that close intermarriage was no longer safe. So, God commanded against ****** relations with siblings, half-siblings, parents, and aunts/uncles (Genesis 2:24 seems to indicate that marriage and ****** relations between parents and children were never allowed by God). It was not until many centuries later that humanity discovered the genetic reason that incest is unsafe and unwise. Genetics was not an issue in the early centuries of humanity, and the marriages that occurred between Adam and Eve’s children, Abraham and Sarah, and Amram and Jochebed were not selfish pursuits of ****** gratification or abuses of authority; accordingly, those relationships should not be viewed as incestuous. The key is that ****** relations between close relatives were viewed differently pre-Law and post-Law. It did not become “incest” until God commanded against it.


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Re the ages :

Adam was 930, nothing said about Eve, Seth lived to 912, Noah to 950 and was 600 when he made the ark.  Cain's lineage died during the flood and Noah, Seth's descendant was the last one to live to close to 1000.  From then on it went down hill until Moses at only 120.

I find it hard to believe those ages, though, after all there were no birth certificates issued.  And who ever met all those people before Noah or even after?  Life expectancies are now increasing, not decreasing.

Not long ago there was one guy in Pakistan claim to be 150 but he had no proof of the date of his birth.  According to Guinnes, the *longest human* lifespan is that of Jeanne Calment of France (1875–1997), who lived to *age* 122 years, 164 days. And there is even some dispute about that, they claim that Calment assumed her mother’s identity to avoid inheritance taxes in the 1930s. If true, Yvonne Calment would’ve been 99 if she died in 1997. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...r-age-when-she-died-one-researcher-thinks-so/


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## Catlady (Oct 18, 2019)

Jeanne Calment


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## Sunny (Oct 19, 2019)

I'm sure the realization of genetics and disease had a lot to do with the prohibition. Even long before anyone knew anything about genes and heredity, they must have noticed that families that were breeding among themselves were much more prone to getting certain diseases.

There are even indications of that in the modern world. Within religious and cultural groups that marry and breed among themselves, there is a high prevalence of certain diseases. I guess it wasn't rocket science to come to the obvious conclusion. (And put in a prohibition by "God," of course.)


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 19, 2019)

Lara.  You pride yourself on your interpretation of the bible. Please use those skills to interpret your recent comment to me. You stated, "I respect other people's religions...even your atheist religion."   *"even your atheist religion"?* That statement is what upsets me. It's your  condescending attitude and disregard for the religious beliefs of others. You aren't discussing angels, you are proselytizing And if others are offended by your overzealous religiosity, it's screw you. You're here to spread the Word of God., as you see it. If I disagree  with you, you tell me not to participate.  Don't read it. Go someplace else. I have every right to  respectfully comment as you do. I have never berated anyone's religious beliefs, nor do I berate yours. Lara, you know the difference between discussing religion and proselytizing. May I ask you to please not proselytize as many of us feel alienated, disrespected, and frankly annoyed.
BTW Yes, I realize that my faults are just as bad, and more probably, worse than yours.


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## RadishRose (Oct 19, 2019)

I can't wrap my head around why people read what they don't like.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 19, 2019)

I read something I did not like, because I can. I have the freedon to read whatever is on this forum and to respectfully comment on that. Apparently, I feel I'm not allowed to do that.


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Sunny said:


> There are even indications of that in the modern world. Within religious and cultural groups that marry and breed among themselves, there is a high prevalence of certain diseases. I guess it wasn't rocket science to come to the obvious conclusion. (And put in a prohibition by "God," of course.)


The people of Appalachia in western Virginia and eastern Kentucky come to mind.  They used to be isolated, but things are improving, I hope.  I learned about them after I watched the movie ''Deliverance'' with Burt Reynolds.


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## Knight (Oct 19, 2019)

I have to admit the bible does have some humor. Supposedly a supernatural being created the universe & earth. Then created Adam & Eve. Eve knowing she screwed up talked Adam into hiding. This is where the humor is.

Genesis 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

To funny. A supernatural being able to create the universe, earth, humans, land & water animals, insects can't find Adam & Eve in the garden he made. 

Recognized in the bible.
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

Not really humorous just one of those verses that shows the creator was a hypocrit. Made in his image then wants to kill what was made.


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Knight said:


> Genesis 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
> And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
> To funny. A supernatural being able to create the universe, earth, humans, land & water animals, insects *can't find Adam & Eve in the garden he made.*


I thought that was funny, too.   Proof that the bible was written by men, not God like religious people like to say.   "The word of God'',  "God told him",  "It's God's wish".  You'd think that the author would have remembered that a diety with so much power of creation could find a pebble anywhere and everywhere.


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## Lara (Oct 19, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Lara.  You pride yourself on your interpretation of the bible. Please use those skills to interpret your recent comment to me. You stated, "I respect other people's religions...even your atheist religion."   *"even your atheist religion"?* That statement is what upsets me. It's your  condescending attitude and disregard for the religious beliefs of others. You aren't discussing angels, you are proselytizing And if others are offended by your overzealous religiosity, it's screw you. You're here to spread the Word of God., as you see it. If I disagree  with you, you tell me not to participate.  Don't read it. Go someplace else. I have every right to  respectfully comment as you do. I have never berated anyone's religious beliefs, nor do I berate yours. Lara, you know the difference between discussing religion and proselytizing. May I ask you to please not proselytize as many of us feel alienated, disrespected, and frankly annoyed.
> BTW Yes, I realize that my faults are just as bad, and more probably, worse than yours.


We've both been members here since 2015, yet this is our first conversation with one another and you obviously don't know me. Pity isn't it as it's riddled with insults that aren't worth the time to address...but I will.

No, I'm not "prideful" of my interpretation of the Bible. I pray before reading and ask God to show me His truth. When He does I'm excited and full of joy to learn something new and want to share it so others may also be happy to learn something too.

Atheism is a belief without proof that God doesn't exist. Just like Christianity is a belief without proof that God does exist. When you call mine "religion" I disagree because I believe mine is a Relationship that brings me a friend in Jesus, love, joy, and peace in knowing what my purpose is in life and why. When I call yours a "religion" with the belief that God doesn't exist you are just "upset".

No I'm not "condescending" regarding other religions. I am "comfortable" in my own belief and am not afraid to glow about it. And "glow" was not a typo. As I mentioned in my post #183, I respect anyone's right to their own religion including your atheist religion...except the religion that requires beheading if you don't believe theirs. Be glad I'm not that of that persuasion or you'd be a little more than "upset".

You said if someone disagrees with me I would say "screw you" (that's so not me and everyone knows it) and then you said you "respectfully comment" to me in the very next sentence??? Make up your mind.

No I'm not "over zealous"....but I see I taught you a new word in my post#183 when you accused me of proselytizing and I responded, I'm not a zealot.

I have been nothing but civil and respectful in this thread and others...until now. I won't be a doormat.

Whoever feels "alienated, disrespected, and frankly annoyed" by me, as you say, are either not feeling comfortable in their "own skin" or perhaps still bitter over the now defunct political thread. They hated my conservative Christian views. Then left to start their own forum where the clique  banned together to roast me in a thread they named "Lara". Then many came back because the other forum had all like thinkers and no one to bully.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 19, 2019)

Lara, I think you know I don't wish you any ill will. We are not enemies. But I'm quite aware you are intelligent enough to realize the difference in religious discussion, and evangelism.


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## Trade (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> The people of Appalachia in western Virginia and eastern Kentucky come to mind.  They used to be isolated, but things are improving, I hope.  I learned about them after I watched the movie ''Deliverance'' with Burt Reynolds.



Now squeal like a pig.


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## Pepper (Oct 19, 2019)

What "other" forum?  Can someone please pm to me with this information?  Don't know why it can't be shared here, publicly, but it appears it can't?


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> Atheism is a belief without proof that God doesn't exist. Just like Christianity is a belief without proof that God does exist.



I agree.  NO ONE has any proof whether there is a god or not, all we can do is speculate.  I choose to believe in a ''creator'' (somehow that sounds more logical than ''god'', don't ask me why) because the living body and the universe is too complex to have arisen out of nothing.

I used to have a penpal who was religious and not only a faithful church attendant, but was also the guy that locks the church doors etc (whatever they're called).  He's the one who told me I would not go to heaven even if I was a good person unless I went to church.  When I asked him what proof did he have that there was a hereafter, he said he didn't have any proof but went to church to ''cover his bases'' in case he was right.  I call that being cautious.   I haven't been to church since Feb 1992, for my mother's funeral.


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## Pepper (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> I agree.  NO ONE has any proof whether there is a god or not, all we can do is speculate.  I choose to believe in a ''creator'' (somehow that sounds more logical than ''god'', don't ask me why) because the living body and the *universe is too complex to have arisen out of nothing.*


Are you an astro or theoretical physicist?  Nope, didn't think so.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 19, 2019)

Vedaarya said:


> Everyone must have had experiences which might have adversely changed the path of their life if it not had been for the help from......HEAVEN?


There is a very reliable book that says there are angels put in charge of us.  So, yes, there are definitely angels. I have never seen one, however, there is some that say that there are angels among us while we are unaware that they are there with us.  Keep your mind open to this, it is real.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> I agree.  NO ONE has any proof whether there is a god or not, all we can do is speculate.  I choose to believe in a ''creator'' (somehow that sounds more logical than ''god'', don't ask me why) because the living body and the universe is too complex to have arisen out of nothing.
> 
> I used to have a penpal who was religious and not only a faithful church attendant, but was also the guy that locks the church doors etc (whatever they're called).  He's the one who told me I would not go to heaven even if I was a good person unless I went to church.  When I asked him what proof did he have that there was a hereafter, he said he didn't have any proof but went to church to ''cover his bases'' in case he was right.  I call that being cautious.   I haven't been to church since Feb 1992, for my mother's funeral.


Well, going to church won't get you into heaven.  There are other things, requirements, that you must do to get to heaven.  Going to church keeps you in fellowship with fellow believers, you receive teaching, and your spirit gets fed.  Of course, he didn't have proof of that, cause he knew that what he said had no foundational truth.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 19, 2019)

Interesting..  I was reading an article today about the possibility of the universe spontaneously coming from nothing  13.5 billion years ago.  Our solar system which is only one of billions, was formed approx 4.5 billion years ago.  Life was not just created - it evolved over millions of years on Earth.  The evidence is there and  and it  seems absolutely ridiculous to suggest that it didn't also evolve elsewhere.


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## Silverfox (Oct 19, 2019)

I think it all comes down to personal faith. It doesn't matter how many times per year you attend church on Sunday. It is your own personal spiritual relationship you have. I consider myself a person of faith and go about that in my own way that I find fulfilling for my spiritual needs. That is all I need.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 19, 2019)

Stormy said:


> I haven't had any experiences or feelings of angels or spirits but I keep an open mind and hope to have contact with a departed loved one someday, so far nothing, not a believer yet


You don't need proof of angels or anything like that to become a believer, it is like when you are a baby you know nothing about walking then you try it out and practice it and before you know it you are walking and running.  Same principle, just try it out, find a church that appeals to you, then before you know it, you will get it.  You will understand it, there are others there that will help you, sometimes they have been where you are.


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> I was reading an article today about the possibility of the *universe spontaneously coming from nothing  13.5 billion years ago*.


And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.


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## Olivia (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.



There is really no empirical answer to that kind of question. Which is why I believe that each individual's answers to those questions is finally based on one's philosophy of life, whether that be a religious belief or just about any thing else. I personally lean more to the Buddhist philosophy, about no birth, no death, although I don't really see where one kind of belief negates any other. I believe that we can learn so much from each other. We're really just one species of human being if we can only understand that. We each may just have a part of the truth, whatever that truth may be.


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## Pepper (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.


A void seeks to be filled.  The lack of comprehension is filled by God(s).  That doesn't make them real.  It consumes the vacuum.  Not having an answer doesn't mean it is a god.  Just means you don't have the answer, whether 'yet' or 'never.'  It's actually lazy.


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## Olivia (Oct 19, 2019)

Pepper said:


> A void seeks to be filled.  The lack of comprehension is filled by God(s).  That doesn't make them real.  It consumes the vacuum.  Not having an answer doesn't mean it is a god.  Just means you don't have the answer, whether 'yet' or 'never.'  It's actually lazy.



There's only a void if you perceive it to be.

See how philosophical I can be? LOL


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## norman (Oct 19, 2019)

Trade said:


> Seeing is believing and I ain't seen any.


You won't see anything, but you become aware mentally and spiritually at the right time, any how that is it happened to me.


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## Gary O' (Oct 19, 2019)

Well now....all this mentally stimulating dialogue brings a poster of mine to mind;


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## norman (Oct 19, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Are you an astro or theoretical physicist?  Nope, didn't think so.


Pepper, just curious do you lean toward Atheism rather than the existence of a supreme being or higher power?  Don't reply if your answer is nunyaFB.


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## Sunny (Oct 19, 2019)

> And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.



PVC, that comment explains a lot about religion. You are right, we can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end (though a Mobius strip comes to mind, that's probably the closest I can come, or maybe a circle), and so we have invented supreme beings to reassure us that there's "something" there. But who says there is, just because we can't comprehend the void?

What is real in this universe may be far beyond the comprehension of us poor, feeble human beings.  Astrophysicists have told us that the universe exploded from a tiny speck, and some day will all collapse back into another tiny speck. Can we really imagine that? I know I can't. But it strikes me as more real than imaginary stories about ghosts, goblins, angels, demons, and whatever else our fertile human imaginations have come up with. At least there is some evidence of truth in the scientific findings.


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## Warrigal (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.


Your can drive yourself crazy trying to get your head around some big questions like what was it like before the beginning of time and space. I don't have enough years left, or enough grey matter still firing to indulge on these conundrums. 

I prefer to reflect on deeper and more ancient questions like" what is the purpose of life  and what does it mean to live a good life". These questions are inherently religious and most systems of religion focus on both of these questions. Often they come up with similar answers.

People of faith and of none tend to settle on their own personal answers which are influenced by culture, education and personality. Discourse and dialogue present opportunities to learn and expand our horizons of thought and are fruitful only as long as we are prepared to listen to the thoughts of others.


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## Pepper (Oct 19, 2019)

norman said:


> Pepper, just curious do you lean toward Atheism rather than the existence of a supreme being or higher power?  Don't reply if your answer is nunyaFB.


Depends on the day of the week or the hour of the day.


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Sunny said:


> PVC, that comment explains a lot about religion. You are right, we can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end (though a Mobius strip comes to mind, that's probably the closest I can come, or maybe a circle), and so we have invented supreme beings to reassure us that there's "something" there. But who says there is, just because we can't comprehend the void?
> 
> What is real in this universe may be far beyond the comprehension of us poor, feeble human beings.  Astrophysicists have told us that the universe exploded from a tiny speck, and some day will all collapse back into another tiny speck. Can we really imagine that? I know I can't. But it strikes me as more real than imaginary stories about ghosts, goblins, angels, demons, and whatever else our fertile human imaginations have come up with. At least there is some evidence of truth in the scientific findings.


Yes, there are too many mysteries out there, the Big Bang and the black holes etc.   But the biggest mystery of all is what is beyond ''reality'', what was there before the beginning of time and space?   The answer seems to be spherical, since everything in the universe seems to be spherical (the planets and the galaxies and even the movement of all celestial bodies) but even that does not answer what is beyond the (finite) globe of the universe.  I just don't understand infinity, I guess, and THAT is what makes me believe in a creator.   I don't believe in ghosts, and angels, and heaven and hell, those are just human inventions trying to make sense of our existence. 

I am also amazed at how complex the living body is, and it all comes to be from a tiny egg and sperm invisible to the human eye.  When you think about it, that is similar to what the astrophysicists said *"that the universe exploded from a tiny speck, and some day will all collapse back into another tiny speck."* And then comes death and all of that marvelous machinery decomposes and goes to waste, like an exercise in futility.  There MUST be some sense to that futility, that waste of creation.  Why would the creator or whoever go to all that trouble to create something only to destroy it?   And these are not the musings of an old woman near the end of life, I have always asked these questions since I was at least a teenager.  And what is sad is that I will never find out the answer, because I truly don't believe in that mythical afterlife.


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## Trade (Oct 19, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> I prefer to reflect on deeper and more ancient questions like" what is the purpose of life  and what does it mean to live a good life".



Why does there even have to be a purpose?

Couldn't it just be that "Shit happens"?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit happens


> Taoism: Shit Happens.
> Hinduism: This shit happened before.
> Islam: If shit happens, take hostages.
> Buddhism: If shit happens is it really shit?
> ...


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## Gary O' (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> NO ONE has any proof whether there is a god or not, all we can do is speculate


Well, hell, I gotta respond

There IS proof
in the Bible itself

It does take study
But not all that much

The prophecies in the book of Daniel alone are so precise
There's other places, but if one is truly looking, it's there 

I hope to hell this isn't considered proselyting, or soliciting some sorta conversion, 'cause it ain't 
I could give a rip less.

Screw 'belief'.
It's just something I know

I'd hate to go more into detail, and imagine nobody here cares to put up with that (I wouldn't)
but
if yer truly interested
it's there


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## Warrigal (Oct 19, 2019)

> Couldn't it just be that "Shit happens"?



That is one response and is more glib than thought-filled. The ancient Greek philosophers did take a bit more time to think about the deeper questions of life.


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Trade said:


> Why does there even have to be a purpose?
> 
> Couldn't it just be that "Shit happens"?
> 
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shit happens


LOL  There is a lot of shit going on in this world.  This is my favorite =  Buddhism: If shit happens is it really shit?


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## Trade (Oct 19, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> That is one response and is more glib than thought-filled.



Hey!

I resemble that remark!


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## Catlady (Oct 19, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> There IS proof
> in the Bible itself
> It does take study
> But not all that much
> ...


The bible is not PROOF, it was written by human writers.

No, you are not proselyting, this is just a discussion/debate about what we believe about religion.  As long as no one tells me "YOU MUST agree with my beliefs" I am fine with people disagreeing with me.  It would be very boring if we all agreed, there would be no seed planted for thought.
.


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## Olivia (Oct 19, 2019)

I hate to admit it, but there is one response that either goes from my mind but comes out of my lips and that is "Oh shit".  I wasn't brought up that way.


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## Gary O' (Oct 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> No, you are not proselyting, this is just a discussion/debate about what we believe about religion


Thanks, fine lady


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## norman (Oct 20, 2019)

This subject is tooooo heavy, going fishing and will be back next week or when ever I (we) run out of money or the fish stop biting on the OHIO RIVER..    I want to take my laptop, but I think I have to make a choice of... Sweetie or the laptop.


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## rgp (Oct 20, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Well, going to church won't get you into heaven.  There are other things, requirements, that you must do to get to heaven.  Going to church keeps you in fellowship with fellow believers, you receive teaching, and your spirit gets fed.  Of course, he didn't have proof of that, cause he knew that what he said had no foundational truth.




  I'd like to know just how, someone?? digs us out of the ground  [without making a mess] opens the casket , and reassembles our bones, then sends us to this heaven ?

 If all this happens ? Why do they put us in the box in the first place?

 And of course this reassemble guy really has his work cutout for him in the case of cremation.....


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## rgp (Oct 20, 2019)

PVC said:


> The bible is not PROOF, it was written by human writers.
> 
> No, you are not proselyting, this is just a discussion/debate about what we believe about religion.  As long as no one tells me "YOU MUST agree with my beliefs" I am fine with people disagreeing with me.  It would be very boring if we all agreed, there would be no seed planted for thought.
> .




 The bible is NOT PROOF....._because_ it was written by humans.


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## Gary O' (Oct 20, 2019)

rgp said:


> I'd like to know just how, someone?? digs us out of the ground [without making a mess] opens the casket , and reassembles our bones, then sends us to this heaven ?





rgp said:


> The bible is NOT PROOF....._because_ it was written by humans




rgp, if I were ever in charge of a formal debate team, I'd elect you as a member......of the opposing team


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## Sunny (Oct 20, 2019)

"Are you collapsing, millions?
Do you sense the creator, world?
Seek him above the starry canopy!
_Above the stars must He dwell._ "

This is a very awkward translation from the German of Schiller's famous poem, Ode to Joy. We are all familiar with it, from the stirring music Beethoven set these words to, in his 9th Symphony.  Those words have always made me wonder: what is meant by "above the stars?"  How  can anything be above the stars?

It could mean that Schiller thought the night sky was like a flat ceiling, with shiny stars painted on it. But I think he was better than that. He probably meant "above and beyond.... beyond the beyond, beyond anything we can possibly imagine."  

The poem asks that we celebrate joy, peace, and brotherhood.  It says, "All men are brothers."  Great words, and the "above the stars" part of it really makes us think! And that is as close as I come to religion.


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## rgp (Oct 20, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> rgp, if I were ever in charge of a formal debate team, I'd elect you as a member......of the opposing team




 Meaning ?


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## Gary O' (Oct 20, 2019)

to wit


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## Warrigal (Oct 20, 2019)

Above the stars must he dwell, in German - Über den Sternen muss er wohnen. "
Schiller was a poet. This is the language of poetry.

Our last minister took similar poetic licence when conducting a funeral. Very aware that the assembled people included non christians and non believers, he tended to keep the God talk to a minimum. When at the end of the service it was time for the committal he would say, "And now we commit his/her spirit to the Star Maker." People were free to interpret this sentence in any way that was personally meaningful and no-one needed to feel alienated by the imagery.

Much of the bible is written in poetic language. Most religious texts employ similar devices to speak to the listening audience. Remember that written texts came long after most stories had been transmitted orally, usually in family or tribal groups. They were never intended to be scientific treatises. People who insist on looking for science will find only nonsense but those who are attuned to poetry may find meaning and wisdom.


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## Trade (Oct 20, 2019)

Olivia said:


> I hate to admit it, but there is one response that either goes from my mind but comes out of my lips and that is "Oh shit".  I wasn't brought up that way.



But I like it when you talk dirty.


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## Trade (Oct 20, 2019)

I read the Bible cover to cover back about 25 years ago. Wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. To me it's a story book, and quite frankly I've read better ones. Stephen King's tome "The Stand" is one that comes to mind.


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## Catlady (Oct 20, 2019)

Honestly people, I am NOT obsessed with religion.  My proof is that if you check my posting history I am all over the place on this forum, except for Games, not into it.  But here I go again about religion.

The Jewish, Christian, and Islam religion ALL have their origins from the Old Testament, yet look at how different all three are and how they all disdain and are at war with each other.  And the Old Testament was derived from the Dead Sea Scrolls and they in turn got their inspirations and ideas from the Sumerians.  Religions are like a net that grows wider and wider, one feeding on the other and changing all the time.

For example, Martin Luther started the Lutheran religion because he did not like the Catholic church selling indulgences.  And thereby was born the Protestant religion and they in time split into many other versions because of disagreements.  That is why we have so many religions in the world, you can't please everyone.  I agree with Luther, the Catholics were greedy and their popes lived and still live extravagant lifestyles.  But all the the other religions have their faults and abuse of power, too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{{Although reformers had many complaints about the Catholic Church of the 16th century, the practice of selling "indulgences" raised the most opposition. An indulgence was a payment to the Catholic Church that purchased an exemption from punishment (penance) for some types of sins. }}

*

*


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## Liberty (Oct 20, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Above the stars must he dwell, in German - Über den Sternen muss er wohnen. "
> Schiller was a poet. This is the language of poetry.
> 
> Our last minister took similar poetic licence when conducting a funeral. Very aware that the assembled people included non christians and non believers, he tended to keep the God talk to a minimum. When at the end of the service it was time for the committal he would say, "And now we commit his/her spirit to the Star Maker." People were free to interpret this sentence in any way that was personally meaningful and no-one needed to feel alienated by the imagery.
> ...


The time has come,' the Walrus said,
      To talk of many things:
Of shoes — and ships — and sealing-wax —
      Of cabbages — and kings —
And why the sea is boiling hot —
      And whether pigs have wings.'


----------



## Pepper (Oct 20, 2019)

PVC said:


> Honestly people, I am NOT obsessed with religion.  My proof is that if you check my posting history I am all over the place on this forum, except for Games, not into it.  But here I go again about religion.


Mmmmmm, was wondering "Is PVC obsessed with religion or is she just investigating to see whether the ancient Hebrews abhorred compliments?"    Just kidding.


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## chic (Oct 20, 2019)

Trade said:


> I read the Bible cover to cover back about 25 years ago. Wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. To me it's a story book, and quite frankly I've read better ones. Stephen King's tome "The Stand" is one that comes to mind.



I read the bible cover to cover several times during my college years. One thing that stands out is almost nothing good is said about women. Women are the cause of all evil, which led me to suspect the bible was written by men eager to subjugate women. Then the entire book seemed to be about subjugating others whose views differed from the author's.

What happened to the conversation about angels? If we argue theology, we'll be here forever and solve nothing.


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## Sunny (Oct 20, 2019)

And you expect a discussion about whether there are angels to solve anything?


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## Catlady (Oct 20, 2019)

chic said:


> I read the bible cover to cover several times during my college years. One thing that stands out is almost nothing good is said about women. Women are the cause of all evil, which led me to suspect the bible was written by men eager to subjugate women. Then the entire book seemed to be about subjugating others whose views differed from the author's.
> 
> What happened to the conversation about angels? If we argue theology, we'll be here forever and solve nothing.


I bought a bible so I could read it, but I was only able to read it in bits and pieces.  It was useless, the writing is so repetitive and archaic and I found many passages that angered me.   Yes, the women were treated as possessions, Eve was blamed for eating the ''apple'' and Adam was just her "innocent victim", God's favorites had hundreds of wives without the sting of adultery but it was okay to stone to death an adulterous wife.

This thread turned into theology because angels  are part of the religious beliefs.  Anyone is welcome to redirect the thread to angels, no one is stopping anyone from doing so.


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## Pepper (Oct 20, 2019)

I got all my bibles from hotel/motel rooms.


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## Catlady (Oct 20, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I got all my bibles from hotel/motel rooms.


You thief!  That's it, you're going to hell!


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## Pepper (Oct 20, 2019)

Naw, you got it backwards.  It's "Placed by the Gideons" and will be RE-placed by the Gideons.  They want you to take it, learn from it, live it.  JC died between 2 thieves and one of them was my great great great great.........Uncle Schlomo.


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## Catlady (Oct 20, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Naw, you got it backwards.  It's "Placed by the Gideons" and will be RE-placed by the Gideons.  They want you to take it, learn from it, live it.  JC died between 2 thieves and one of them was my great great great great.........Uncle Schlomo.


Hmmm, I had no idea they were free to take, just to read while staying there.


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## Pepper (Oct 20, 2019)

Not only are they free to take, as I said, they WANT you to take.  Then read it, learn it, live it.


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## rgp (Oct 20, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I got all my bibles from hotel/motel rooms.




  friend of mine, found one in a room way-back...it was cut-out, there was someone's pot stash in the cutout....


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## Pepper (Oct 20, 2019)

Heavenly!


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## Catlady (Oct 20, 2019)

rgp said:


> friend of mine, found one in a room way-back...it was cut-out, there was someone's pot stash in the cutout....


I never read my bible anymore, maybe I should cut it out and stash my cash in there.  But, knowing my luck, my house invader will be the religious type and will take the bible home.  I think the cash is safer in the freezer and labeled "Tofu".


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 20, 2019)

To be totally correct, the question is, does a deity exist? It's impossible to prove it does not.  It's a negative. That's what all the theoretical people say. And, in all honestly, there is no physical proof of a deity.  You can't point to it. Science is coming closer and closer to a plausible explanation of the Universe, without a deity. Humans have a history of believing in gods. Most believe because they believe, and that is satisfying for them. Yet, that same hunam history has many gods. The most powerful  ancient Egyptian god, Osiris, was worshiped for over 2,000 years. We still have remnants of his temples. He was worshiped until the 4th century AD, when Christians slaughtered those, who worshiped the "pagan" god. Today, Osisis is considered a myth; but to those ,who chose to die for their belief, he was a god. Most of the comments about a deity here, have been concerned with a Christian ideation of a deity. I think those, who advocate the existence of a deity, also have offer  evidense of what is the true deity.


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## rgp (Oct 20, 2019)

PVC said:


> I never read my bible anymore, maybe I should cut it out and stash my cash in there.  But, knowing my luck, my house invader will be the religious type and will take the bible home.  I think the cash is safer in the freezer and labeled "Tofu".




  Hope there are no Vegan burglars.........


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## Liberty (Oct 20, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> To be totally correct, the question is, does a deity exist? It's impossible to prove it does not.  It's a negative. That's what all the theoretical people say. And, in all honestly, there is no physical proof of a deity.  You can't point to it. Science is coming closer and closer to a plausible explanation of the Universe, without a deity. Humans have a history of believing in gods. Most believe because they believe, and that is satisfying for them. Yet, that same hunam history has many gods. The most powerful  ancient Egyptian god, Osiris, was worshiped for over 2,000 years. We still have remnants of his temples. He was worshiped until the 4th century AD, when Christians slaughtered those, who worshiped the "pagan" god. Today, Osisis is considered a myth; but to those ,who chose to die for their belief, he was a god. Most of the comments about a deity here, have been concerned with a Christian ideation of a deity. I think those, who advocate the existence of a deity, also have offer  evidense of what is the true deity.


fuzzy...have you ever visited Egypt?


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## Warrigal (Oct 20, 2019)

Liberty said:


> The time has come,' the Walrus said,
> To talk of many things:
> Of shoes — and ships — and sealing-wax —
> Of cabbages — and kings —
> ...


One of my Lewis Carroll favourites. The other is Jabberwocky.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 20, 2019)

PVC said:


> And what was there before nothing?  I can't comprehend anything without a beginning and an end, that is why I believe in a creator, because I have no answer to that question.


It is very hard to comprehend that, but there has always been faith.  Believing without seeing.  Trying something new without knowing how it will end is about the same thing.  Whether it turns out good or bad.


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## Sunny (Oct 20, 2019)

I wonder how many hotel visitors ever actually read any part of those Bibles.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 20, 2019)

No, Liberty, It has always been my fondest wish to see the pyramids.  Why did you ask?


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## Trade (Oct 21, 2019)

PVC said:


> I never read my bible anymore, maybe I should cut it out and stash my cash in there.  But, knowing my luck, my house invader will be the religious type and will take the bible home.  I think the cash is safer in the freezer and labeled "Tofu".



*That is NOT what a Bible is for PVC!

This is what a Bible is for:*


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## Liberty (Oct 21, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> No, Liberty, It has always been my fondest wish to see the pyramids.  Why did you ask?


Well you were talking about Osiris and his sister, who reassembled him.  If you had been to Karnak or the V of K, then you would have seen the glyphs chiseled into the massive temples regarding "the fish"...lol.

The oldest cross I ever saw was in the Medicine Temple - known as the Crocodile Temple on the Nile, and it was a fascinating place.  We meditated often in the king's chamber of the great pyramid and spent some time between the two front forepaws of the Sphinx.

The "eye of Horus" also called the Eye of Jesus is a fascinating link to our own endocrine gland system and the "single eye" of the human body.  The Rosetta stone was the secret to understanding the temple glyphs.  Being an anthropolgy student, I couldn't help but become fascinated. Was there last in the late 90's. Everything old is new again.:

http://www.spiritofthescripture.com/id923-Jesus-jacob-and-the-eye-of-horus.html


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## Sunny (Oct 21, 2019)

We don't have to travel all the way to Egypt!  That creepy "eye of God" is present on our dollar bills, right at the top of a pyramid. The best I can learn about it is that it has something to do with the Founding Fathers being Masons, and it's a Masonic symbol.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 21, 2019)

Back to the angels.....In order to have angels, there must be a deity , which created them. And that leads back to the debate over the existence of a deity. In my opinion, I believe the atheists have an easier row to hoe. There is no physical proof of a deity. You can't point and say there is God. Those, who say there is a deity, have to offer proof of its existence. Then, they have  to offer proof which of the many gods is the true God. And since God is a sentient entity, they have to offer a reason for the act of creation. It gets  complicated with a deity. If you say a deity created mankind, well that same deity created cancer, and schizophrenia. ?? That is the theoretical debate about supernatural existence. I don't think we check off a list of proofs for, or against  a deity's existence. It is something felt and believed, or it is not.


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## Liberty (Oct 21, 2019)

Sunny said:


> View attachment 78619
> 
> We don't have to travel all the way to Egypt!  That creepy "eye of God" is present on our dollar bills, right at the top of a pyramid. The best I can learn about it is that it has something to do with the Founding Fathers being Masons, and it's a Masonic symbol.


Not the same thing, Sunny...lol.  That's just an eyeball.  And travelling to Egypt was great!


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## Liberty (Oct 21, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Back to the angels.....In order to have angels, there must be a deity , which created them. And that leads back to the debate over the existence of a deity. I believe the atheists have an easier row to hoe. There is no physical proof of a deity. You can't point and say there is God. Those, who say there is a deity, have to offer proof of its existence. Then, they have  to offer proof which of the many gods is the true God. And since God is a sentient entity, they have to offer a reason for the act of creation. It gets  complicated with a deity. If you say a deity created mankind, well that same deity created cancer, and schizophrenia. ?? That is the theoretical debate about supernatural existence. I don't think we check off a list of proofs for, or against  a deity's existence. It is something felt and believed, or it is not.


If you are an atheists then you have to prove there isn't a God...lol.  

Look at the crap man has created, speaking of creating bad stuff.  

Mox nix.


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## Pepper (Oct 21, 2019)

No such thing as supernatural.  Whatever actually exists is natural.  Nothing super about it.


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## drifter (Oct 21, 2019)

No, I think not.


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## Pepper (Oct 21, 2019)

You think not what?


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 22, 2019)

Of course there are angels.  Satan took some with him when God casts them into hell, and kept the ones that served and praised Him.  So, the Bible speaks of angels that hearken to the voice of God's Word.  If they are mentioned, they are real and present and at work.  Yes they exist.  Now, to those that want to argue, you are entitled to your choice of belief, and those that question the Bible, it has never changed it's message, it is the truth, and what you choose to do with it is your prerogative.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 22, 2019)

Then I shall exercise my prerogative and say that I believe that there is no God, no Satan, no angels, no demons, no heaven and no hell (although some places come close to it).

If people want to believe what's written in the Bible, that's up to them.


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## rgp (Oct 22, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Then I shall exercise my prerogative and say that I believe that there is no God, no Satan, no angels, no demons, no heaven and no hell (although some places come close to it).
> 
> If people want to believe what's written in the Bible, that's up to them.




 Agree here.


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## Sunny (Oct 22, 2019)

Amen, brother!


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 23, 2019)

I choose to believe in the Word of God, the Bible.


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## rgp (Oct 23, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I choose to believe in the Word of God, the Bible.




  But the bible is God's word.......written by men , is it not? 

  Is it accurate to God's word ?


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## Sunny (Oct 23, 2019)

The wonderful thing about the Internet is that we can use this amazing electronic method to encounter some of the greatest minds of the 13th century!


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## Pepper (Oct 23, 2019)

Sunny said:


> The wonderful thing about the Internet is that we can use this amazing electronic method to encounter some of the greatest minds of the 13th century!


And Beyond!


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> To be totally correct, the question is, does a deity exist? It's impossible to prove it does not.  It's a negative. That's what all the theoretical people say. And, in all honestly, there is no physical proof of a deity.  You can't point to it. Science is coming closer and closer to a plausible explanation of the Universe, without a deity. Humans have a history of believing in gods. Most believe because they believe, and that is satisfying for them. Yet, that same hunam history has many gods. The most powerful  ancient Egyptian god, Osiris, was worshiped for over 2,000 years. We still have remnants of his temples. He was worshiped until the 4th century AD, when Christians slaughtered those, who worshiped the "pagan" god. Today, Osisis is considered a myth; but to those ,who chose to die for their belief, he was a god. Most of the comments about a deity here, have been concerned with a Christian ideation of a deity. I think those, who advocate the existence of a deity, also have offer  evidense of what is the true deity.


Evidence is creation itself, all creatures of foul, fish, human, etc, universe, planets, and anything else you can think of.  There is nothing created or not created that God did not make-He made it all.  Yes, He really, really exists.  There are other gods that are created by mankind, and they are not living and perish over time.  God is living and powerful and will never perish. Just my personal input.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Back to the angels.....In order to have angels, there must be a deity , which created them. And that leads back to the debate over the existence of a deity. In my opinion, I believe the atheists have an easier row to hoe. There is no physical proof of a deity. You can't point and say there is God. Those, who say there is a deity, have to offer proof of its existence. Then, they have  to offer proof which of the many gods is the true God. And since God is a sentient entity, they have to offer a reason for the act of creation. It gets  complicated with a deity. If you say a deity created mankind, well that same deity created cancer, and schizophrenia. ?? That is the theoretical debate about supernatural existence. I don't think we check off a list of proofs for, or against  a deity's existence. It is something felt and believed, or it is not.


Just the fact that some say there is no God, or deity, you are admitting to the fact that you know that He exists.  Once said by a confirmed athiest who set out to prove there is no God.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

rgp said:


> But the bible is God's word.......written by men , is it not?
> 
> Is it accurate to God's word ?


The only words in the Bible were spoken to men by God himself.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Then I shall exercise my prerogative and say that I believe that there is no God, no Satan, no angels, no demons, no heaven and no hell (although some places come close to it).
> 
> If people want to believe what's written in the Bible, that's up to them.


Ok, just read a book named 23 minutes in Hell and then say you want to continue being an unbeliever.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 25, 2019)

The claims in Wiese's book have received sardonic reactions from some writers, both in the Christian and secular press. Rob Moll of _Christianity Today_, noting Wiese's statement that hell "was hot – far beyond any possibility of sustaining life", commented, "Thankfully, it being hell, everyone but Wiese had already died." John Sutherland, writing about Wiese's book in the _New Statesman_, remarked that Wiese "rather lamely" describes the sound of billions of people screaming as "annoying".
Other writers have expressed even harsher views. Steven Wells wrote in the _Philadelphia Weekly_ that "Wiese is either wrong or he's right. And if he's right, then God is an insane tyrant."A writer for the _Northern Iowan_, a student newspaper at the University of Northern Iowa, described the book as "23 minutes of nonsense" and portrayed the book's success as a sign of the faults of Christianity and religion in general.

Tell you what - I'll take my chances.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 25, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> The only words in the Bible were spoken to men by God himself.


Those words were WRITTEN by humans, how do we know they are not creative imagination or dreams or hallucinations from drug use?  I could come up with some idea or story and claim that ''God spoke to me and told me this''.  I would have no way to prove what I speak of and others would have no proof that I am lying.  Most of the bible was written by the Essenes, a jewish tribe, and their beliefs were based on the Sumerian religions.  Most say that Moses wrote the bible, but the general belief is that he wrote only the first five chapters (if that).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{{Mosaic authorship is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim tradition that *Moses* was the author of the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew *Bible*/Old Testament. }}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{{ Another important issue concerning the writing of the Book of Genesis concerns when it was written. If Moses was the author or compiler of the events in Genesis then the book was written during his lifetime. Moses lived during a period of time that is known as the Late Bronze Age (about 1550 to 1200 B.C).

*Area Of Dispute *
The exact dates when Moses lived are still a matter of controversy. The reason is that the precise date of the Exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt is still debated. Two different dates, 1445 B.C. or 1290 B.C., are put forward to be the date of the Exodus. }}

They are not even sure when Moses, a very important character in the bible, actually existed.


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## Catlady (Oct 25, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> The claims in Wiese's book have received sardonic reactions from some writers, both in the Christian and secular press. Rob Moll of _Christianity Today_, noting Wiese's statement that hell "was hot – far beyond any possibility of sustaining life", commented, "Thankfully, it being hell, everyone but Wiese had already died." John Sutherland, writing about Wiese's book in the _New Statesman_, remarked that Wiese "rather lamely" describes the sound of billions of people screaming as "annoying".
> Other writers have expressed even harsher views. Steven Wells wrote in the _Philadelphia Weekly_ that "Wiese is either wrong or he's right. And if he's right, then God is an insane tyrant."A writer for the _Northern Iowan_, a student newspaper at the University of Northern Iowa, described the book as "23 minutes of nonsense" and portrayed the book's success as a sign of the faults of Christianity and religion in general.
> 
> Tell you what - I'll take my chances.


I had a gullible friend who told me she read an article that claimed there was a hot hole in the ground somewhere in Russia and someone heard voices shouting ''HELP!"  I just walked away from her.  She probably read it in the Enquirer.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> The claims in Wiese's book have received sardonic reactions from some writers, both in the Christian and secular press. Rob Moll of _Christianity Today_, noting Wiese's statement that hell "was hot – far beyond any possibility of sustaining life", commented, "Thankfully, it being hell, everyone but Wiese had already died." John Sutherland, writing about Wiese's book in the _New Statesman_, remarked that Wiese "rather lamely" describes the sound of billions of people screaming as "annoying".
> Other writers have expressed even harsher views. Steven Wells wrote in the _Philadelphia Weekly_ that "Wiese is either wrong or he's right. And if he's right, then God is an insane tyrant."A writer for the _Northern Iowan_, a student newspaper at the University of Northern Iowa, described the book as "23 minutes of nonsense" and portrayed the book's success as a sign of the faults of Christianity and religion in general.
> 
> Tell you what - I'll take my chances.


Ok, take your chances.  But, know this:  that taking your chances while alive and able to make choices is not the same in the "hereafter" when all is said and done.  No going back.


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## Pepper (Oct 25, 2019)

I want to say very rude things (but I won't) to fancicoffee13, not because of her beliefs (which I can respect) but because of her tedious redundancy.  I feel pity for anyone out of her circle who is forced to know her.  As she herself said "Just my personal input."  Was hoping that was the last, but alas, no.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 25, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Ok, take your chances.  But, know this:  that taking your chances while alive and able to make choices is not the same in the "hereafter" when all is said and done.  No going back.


So let me get this right..  Your god created man (somewhat ignoring the evidence of evolution) and gave him / her the ability to think rationally...  BUT  if he / she didn't come to the same conclusions as this (allegedly good merciful and forgiving)  god, they would be condemned to eternal damnation.

Well that sort of evil, cruel, demanding, capricious god who presides over unspeakable pain and misery  is not exactly the sort any rational person would worship.  
Oh, and there are no angels.


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## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I want to say very rude things (but I won't) to fancicoffee13, not because of her beliefs (which I can respect) but because of her tedious redundancy.  I feel pity for anyone out of her circle who is forced to know her.  As she herself said "Just my personal input."  Was hoping that was the last, but alas, no.


Why would you want to say rude things to me, afterall, this is a board to talk about things.  And no one is ever forced to know me, and if this is not the last, is there more?  Please accept my apologies for my "redundancy".


----------



## Olivia (Oct 25, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> Well that sort of evil, cruel, demanding, capricious god who presides over unspeakable pain and misery  is not exactly the sort any rational person would worship.
> Oh, and there are no angels.



It's interesting how some people can get so worked up about someone who they believe doesn't exist, Or get so worked up about someone who doesn't disbelief the same as they do. What is it exactly?


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Oct 25, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> So let me get this right..  Your god created man (somewhat ignoring the evidence of evolution) and gave him / her the ability to think rationally...  BUT  if he / she didn't come to the same conclusions as this (allegedly good merciful and forgiving)  god, they would be condemned to eternal damnation.
> 
> Well that sort of evil, cruel, demanding, capricious god who presides over unspeakable pain and misery  is not exactly the sort any rational person would worship.
> Oh, and there are no angels.


Well, you got the description of my God down right.  And you are entitled to your choices.  Have a good day.


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## Pepper (Oct 25, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Why would you want to say rude things to me, afterall, this is a board to talk about things.  And no one is ever forced to know me, and if this is not the last, is there more?  Please accept my apologies for my "redundancy".


I accept your apologies and offer my own to you for my whatever it is.  Maybe I'm hungry and should eat.


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## rgp (Oct 25, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> The only words in the Bible were spoken to men by God himself.





 Really ? Were you there ? Just as you are so emphatic regarding his existence , i am about his non existence ....... as are many others I believe.


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## Olivia (Oct 25, 2019)

rgp said:


> Really ? Were you there ? Just as you are so emphatic regarding his existence , i am about his non existence ....... as are many others I believe.



If you had to be there where anything happened, there is really not much you can actually believe in, can you?


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## rgp (Oct 25, 2019)

Olivia said:


> If you had to be there where anything happened, there is really not much you can actually believe in, can you?



 You are right , but those so zealous about it , imply that it is fact. It is not, as you noted in the use of the word believe .

 I respect those that believe, as I do not _know._ But I find very few of _them,_ that respect my non-belief. So often they go into I will burn in hell, etc. I just wish that when they are speaking of it, they would include a line or two about it being belief/their belief, and admit that they do no _know _either. And drop the attitude of it being fact.


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## Olivia (Oct 25, 2019)

Underneath it all is the question about what is Truth. If anyone could point to Truth and everyone could see it, then that would solve everything.


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## Gary O' (Oct 25, 2019)

Olivia said:


> It's interesting how some people can get so worked up about someone who they believe doesn't exist, Or get so worked up about someone who doesn't disbelief the same as they do. *What is it exactly?*


Lack of confidence in one's beliefs/surmisings
Especially after believing something for a very long time 
It's unsettling, so snide insults get hurled

Too bad, too
Disagreeing agreeably seems a lost art


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## Gary O' (Oct 25, 2019)

Heh, having been steeped in agnosticism for decades was pretty frustrating
Bible thumpers in my face did nothing but piss me off

...until this one quiet kindly man

Not pressing
Just being there
Reasoning with me
Putting up with my incredulously snide remarks
Feeding me
One bite at a time

Didn't know how hungry I was

Turns out, if yer not hungry, you could give a rat's pooper about what's laid on the table

But, dammit, that banquet is a feast beyond understanding
Nourishing my innermost soul

Now? It'd take more faith for me to be an atheist than believing in The Creator





I love how He starts my day



And turns the lights low when evening comes



Sorry

Don't wish to offend anyone


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## Trade (Oct 26, 2019)

Deleted


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## Doomp (Nov 15, 2019)

I definitely believe in angels. I believe at least two gigantic ones saved me from flipping over when my car went over an embankment. I was completely uninjured (can't say as much for the car). I also came home one night to find several of them watching my puppy in her dog run. I didn't see them, but I felt them, sensed their color and their height (gigantic). I think they were both protecting and admiring my dog.


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 15, 2019)

Lara said:


> Thank you Liberty, and yes I still feel that glow and He's still showing me His presence. It's never happened like this in my life. That's why I've become annoying to the non-believers here in SF. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just can't stop talking about it. My relationship with God is so close that it permeates my every thought.
> 
> I thought about leaving SF because of the ugly backlashes I've received from one member. God bless her (sincerely). Another Christian member just left. But I enjoying on-topic sharing in appropriate threads so I'm staying for now. Thank you to those members who are annoyed with me but have chosen to ignore me vs anger and have allowed me freedom of speech and religion. I know there are quite a few and I've noticed you're leaving me be. Thank you.



WHooa, wait a minute, ...and this "Loving" Heavenly Father God allowed you to be, or he himself, slammed to the ground, inflicting MULTIPLE very painful potentially permanent Injuries to prove to you that he exists and show you how much he "loves" you....No thank you! I will pass on worshipping and following someone or something who shows its love and care for me with physical harm and suffering. 

Did you show YOUR children how much you "loved" them by physically damaging them?

There are millions of positive loving ways to prove love and existence!


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## norman (Nov 15, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> WHooa, wait a minute, ...and this "Loving" Heavenly Father God allowed you to be, or he himself, slammed to the ground, inflicting MULTIPLE very painful potentially permanent Injuries to prove to you that he exists and show you how much he "loves" you....No thank you! I will pass on worshipping and following someone or something who shows its love and care for me with physical harm and suffering.
> 
> Did you show YOUR children how much you "loved" them by physically damaging them?
> 
> There are millions of positive loving ways to prove love and existence!


Just curious are you an atheist which  is okay, one of my friends is, I don't  try to change his belief and he has no interested in mine.  Over the years I have discover that his IQ is superior and he would rather talk about science than the bible.  He has an explanation for religion, but only theory as an explanation of science, on the other side of the coin, I can't prove there is an higher power.


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## Victor (Nov 15, 2019)

It is totally impossible to know if angels exist--unless you are in heaven and meet one. St. Thomas Aquinas who some Catholics say is an authority, believed strongly in angels that are in heaven near Jesus and God---but they are not intended to travel to earth
and be with humans. That's in the movies and television. No angels among us, as the song goes: do not depend on one to protect you.


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## Lara (Nov 15, 2019)

Welcome to SF Homeschoolie 
`


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## Lara (Nov 15, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> WHooa, wait a minute, ...and this "Loving" Heavenly Father God allowed you to be, or he himself, slammed to the ground, inflicting MULTIPLE very painful...injuries to prove to you that he exists and show you how much he "loves" you....No thank you! I will pass on worshipping and following someone or something who shows its love and care for me with physical harm and suffering.


I'm not afraid of pain and suffering when I know God is using it to get my attention and using it for a meaningful higher purpose, which begins in my post #43. The blessing I've received has been well worth it. Immeasurable.

It's been 4 months since my fall and I'm very different now. I have more love, faithfulness, gratitude, patience, peace, joy, kindness, forgiveness, self-control, and understanding. I have a renewed interest in taking better care of my health too and my priorities have changed as well. To witness His presence so strongly is powerful. I'm so grateful.

I'm looking forward to my future because soon I will be strong and healthy enough to do something very meaningful. I don't know what that is exactly yet but it will be clear when I'm ready. I know it.

*Disclaimer:* You may call this post proselytizing but it's no more proselytizing than atheists, agnostics, and general naysayers posting their opinions, thoughts, and beliefs to readers of a different persuasion. I have no interest in changing minds of those who don't want it. But I do have an interest in my freedoms of speech and religion.

`


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## norman (Nov 15, 2019)

I believe very strongly in the existence of Guardian Angels.    ✝


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 15, 2019)

Lara said:


> "I'm very different now. I have more love, faithfulness, gratitude, patience, peace, joy, kindness, forgiveness, self-control, and understanding. I have a renewed interest in taking better care of my health too and my priorities have changed as well.



*Ouch !! *It is  very harsh and barbaric  to be hurt in order to make those changes....many non-abrahamic religion people change *every* way you mentioned above without being harmed first. The motivation is because we realize what we are saying, doing, believing, not doing etc is not the best way to be or it is creating/causing negative and/or harm within our own lives or the lives of others or the world we live in.


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## Gary O' (Nov 15, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> many non-abrahamic religion people change *every* way you mentioned above without being harmed first. The motivation is because we realize what we are saying, doing, believing, not doing etc is not the best way to be or it is creating/causing negative and/or harm within our own lives or the lives of others or the world we live in.



Soooo, Homeschoolie, you seem an interesting person, how's about putting some of yerself into yer profile, so we can kinda know who we're talking to.


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## Lara (Nov 15, 2019)

🕊 @Homeschoolie , what is Abrahamic religion? I never heard of that. What does your avatar mean? It looks like someone lost and lonely in the universe. Is it?


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Lara said:


> 🕊 @Homeschoolie , *what is Abrahamic religion? I never heard of that*. What does your avatar mean? It looks like someone lost and lonely in the universe. Is it?



Google = {{An *Abrahamic religion* is a *religion* whose followers believe in the prophet Abraham and his descendants to hold an important role in human spiritual development. The best known *Abrahamic religions* are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. }}

Depending on the quality of their teachers, homeschooled kids are much more advanced than their public schooled peers.


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## win231 (Nov 15, 2019)

bluesunflower said:


> I don't believe in external entities like angels or gods.


Me neither.  But....whatever makes people feel good is OK with me.


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

win231 said:


> Me neither.  But....whatever makes people feel good is OK with me.


I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.  

There are supposedly 4200 religions in the world.  When Jehovah Witnesses expect a ''rapture'' they believe only 144,000 of their people will go to heaven, all the other members will live in a paradise on earth.  Their membership is about 9 million, so that means lots of them will end up second-class citizens and the rest of humanity will be destroyed.


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## Lara (Nov 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> "An Abrahamic religion...believe in the prophet Abraham and his descendants to hold an important role in human spiritual development...Judaism, Christianity and Islam" Depending on the quality of their teachers, homeschooled kids are much more advanced than their public schooled peers.


I'm a Christian but Abraham doesn't hold any important role in my spiritual development. Not at all. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible play an important role in my spiritual development...as well as my Trust, Faith, and Obedience. Schooling isn't necessary either for spiritual development...just a small New Testament Bible and the ability to read will do it.


			
				PVC said:
			
		

> I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.


My mother was a Christian but didn't believe that non-believers would all go to hell. It's not a requirement to believe that. As far as what I believe...it's not for me to decide. It's totally up to God.


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Lara said:


> I'm a Christian but Abraham doesn't hold any important role in my spiritual development. Not at all. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible play an important role in my spiritual development...as well as my Trust, Faith, and Obedience. Schooling isn't necessary either for spiritual development...*just the New Testament Bible and the ability to read.*
> My mother was a Christian but didn't believe that non-believers would all go to hell. It's not a requirement to believe belief that.


You feel that only the New Testament Bible is worth reading?  You have an obsessive vision of life.


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## Lara (Nov 15, 2019)

PVC said:
			
		

> You feel that only the New Testament Bible is worth reading? You have an obsessive vision of life.


Whoa. No. You're taking what I said out of context. With regard to one's spiritual development as a Christian I believe all one needs is a small NT Bible, the ability to read, and God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who is our helper in understanding it's truth.

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

`


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## Lc jones (Nov 15, 2019)

Please keep in mind that I share this with everyone on the forum with love and without judgement. Please forgive me if you consider this preaching but it is time for me to share my experience with all of the wonderful people on this forum:

I now know that The Bible is where we can all find answers to why suffering exists and every other question we might have that dear God wants us to know.  Without this guidance we are walking in the dark as the Bible is the Word of God and God is the only true light. But here’s the only way to truly understand The Bible. We must accept Christ as the Son of God and if we do so with a contrite heart this action will open your mind and soul as the Holy Spirit will then dwell within you. (this is the real deal, it has happened to me) For my entire life I was an unbeliever and a true skeptic. During this period of time multiple crisis/tragedies occurred in my life. Though it took six years (I was a tough nut to crack) I finally accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, repented of my sins (wrong behavior according to Gods law) and decided to follow Him completely as He had given His life for me. Since that moment that I truly accepted Him through the workings of the Holy Spirit when I read Holy Scripture it is as though one of my best friends is reading it to me with clarity. In the past as an unbeliever I would’ve scoffed and called this utter nonsense, but I am living proof that in fact it is true and I thank God every day that He led me to come to know Christ and have the privilege of living in eternity with our dear Savior. I wish the same for everyone and all of you are the much loved children of God. He wants all of us to have His peace but He is not going to force you, the choice is yours to make. I think preachers call this type of narrative a testimony, I just call it the truth according to the Bible and my own experience. God love and bless you always. ❤❤


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## Gary O' (Nov 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.


I had that same problem.
Until studying 'Hell'
Unlike the popular vision of hell (burning forever), it's just the absence of God....death

Many Christian religions (and I do hate the term 'religion') know there will be just as many or many more non denominational folks in the new earth than those in a given denomination.

At least that's been my experience


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Lara said:


> Whoa. No. You're taking what I said out of context. *With regard to one's spiritual development as a Christian* I believe all one needs is a small NT Bible, the ability to read, and God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who is our helper in understanding it's truth.  Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.`



I apologize, I misunderstood.


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 15, 2019)

norman said:


> Just curious are you an atheist which  is okay, one of my friends is, I don't  try to change his belief and he has no interested in mine.  Over the years I have discover that his IQ is superior and he would rather talk about science than the bible.  He has an explanation for religion, but only theory as an explanation of science, on the other side of the coin, I can't prove there is an higher power.


I don't put a label on me but if I did Agnostic would be the closest.
I spent 40 years diligently and thoroughly researching almost all spiritual beliefs : Christianity, Ancient Greek and Egyptian beliefs, Catholicism, Judaism , Islam, Indian Shamanism, Kabbalah, Hinduism, Jainism, Satanism, Atheism, Deism,  All the variations of New Age, Zoroastrian, Buddhism and more.
I have studied the History of Civilizations, Archaeology, Sociology, Anthropology, and Physics and have read many of the ancient writings as close to the original sources as I could. Compared numerous translations of each. 

Many of the man-made spiritual beliefs and practices are based on fear.  Most have grains of truth and provide some good guidance on how to conduct ourselves in life.

What really helps put reality to the false beliefs, is when I study Physics, Astral Physics and the most current up-to-date research by medical doctors, Neurologists, Psychiatrists and Scientists.  Using science to detect and measure what happens in and around the brain and body during illness, physical healing, near death, after death, during the numerous types of meditation, prayer, church services, seances, people who claim to talk with and hear from spiritual entities, when Christians and Energy Healers  touch people to heal them. And more.

Just one of my own experiments in search of the truth. When I was a Christian I  heard what I believed to be God and Satan.  I took very inexpensive small dosage Lithium mineral supplements (not the Pharmaceutical Grade Lithium) for just a few weeks and now the only voices I hear are just me. There are numerous testimonies and controlled research that have shown when brain diseases/disorders, neurotransmitter, electrical, energy and chemical imbalances are fixed all God voices stop.

One scientist put people in a totally dark and completely silent room, hooked brain sensors to their head and asked them to meditate. They were from numerous beliefs including Atheists. Some were experienced, some never had tried meditation. On some he gently stimulated just one tiny part of their brain (don't remember which part) with a very low electrical current. They didn't feel it or know he had done this. They all had God experiences where they believed that a spiritual entity/strong presence was in the room with them. Some said it talked to them. The non-stimulated group did not have this experience.


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## Gary O' (Nov 15, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> Just one of my own experiments in search of the truth. When I was a Christian I heard what I believed to be God and Satan. I took very inexpensive small dosage Lithium mineral supplements (not the Pharmaceutical Grade Lithium) for just a few weeks and now the only voices I hear are just me. There are numerous testimonies and controlled research that have shown when brain diseases/disorders, neurotransmitter, electrical, energy and chemical imbalances are fixed all God voices stop.


My schizophrenic son has had that same experience (being dead serious here)


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## win231 (Nov 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.
> 
> There are supposedly 4200 religions in the world.  When Jehovah Witnesses expect a ''rapture'' they believe only 144,000 of their people will go to heaven, all the other members will live in a paradise on earth.  Their membership is about 9 million, so that means lots of them will end up second-class citizens and the rest of humanity will be destroyed.



^^^^ Nailed it!  And nothing amuses & entertains me more than hearing someone say that.


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> On some he gently *stimulated just one tiny part of their brain* (don't remember which part) with a very low electrical current. They didn't feel it or know he had done this. They all had God experiences where they believed that a spiritual entity/strong presence was in the room with them. Some said it talked to them. The non-stimulated group did not have this experience.



Schizophrenics hear ''voices'', and to them those voices are REAL.  It only proves that reality to people is mainly what their brain perceives, and the brain is mainly a electrical organ that can and does go haywire.

By the way, I was raised a Catholic, became an Agnostic, turned to Atheism, and am presently a Deist.  It's the only ''religion'' that makes any sense to ME.


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## Gary O' (Nov 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> the brain is mainly a electrical organ that can and does go haywire.


Heh, that brings a farside 'toon to mind 

(sorry...voices told me to post this)


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Speaking of Schizophrenia and "hearing voices'', I suffer from musical ''earworm'' and for a while I was wondering if I was going insane.  I  "hear" orchestra music (no singing) and it comes unbidden and auto-select.  I asked my ear doctor and he gave it the name as ''earworm".  Since I have become deaf (had chronic masteoiditis since age 5), the following makes sense.  It's yet another way the brain can go haywire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Auditory hallucinations are so common because of the very reason that *Musical* Ear Syndrome develops. It is a result of hearing loss, where the *brain* notices a lack of auditory stimulation and reacts by “filling in the blanks,” or providing stimuli where there is none.


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> I had that same problem.
> Until studying 'Hell'
> Unlike the popular *vision of hell (burning forever), it's just the absence of God..*..death



I went to a Catholic school and hated most of the nuns, but there was one that I liked.  She said things that surprised me coming from a nun.  One of the things she said was like you said above in bold, that there is no physical fire in "hell'', just the torture of never being able to meet God.

Of course, remember, I believed that in my past life as a Catholic, I no longer believe in a hereafter.  I believe that we come from a microscopic union of two cells and end up a pile of bones, if that.  It may sound morbid, but it doesn't bother me, once the brain dies consciousness also dies.


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## Gary O' (Nov 15, 2019)

After reading the dialogue in this thread, and it evolving into is there a god, and on to hearing voices and the application of lithium, it so reminded me of something I posted in wunna my threads....

Sorry for posting again, but I need it fresh in my own mind from time to time


seems I first wrote this eons ago now, but only 20 some years ago;


I just watched the movie 'Shine' last night

.....reminded me of my eldest son

was hard to hold emotion thru some parts

was much harder for my Lady

but we remained

riveted

My son
Excelled in academics
Skipped grades
Won awards
Became somewhat sought after
Mensa
Artistic things hung in municipal halls
Life for him was just too slow apace
Stayed up for days at a time
He’d regurgitate all his thoughts to his mother and I
It was a bit suffocating

Then one day he came to me in my shop
....and began crying, telling me he felt he was going crazy,
but unable to put his feelings into words
I hugged him
Told him all kids go thru puberty and change
‘this too shall pass’ kinda thing

The next years are a blur
I guess maybe I never have wished to dwell on the events in those years

I’ll try to piece some together on my own, as I know better than to ask my lady


He ended up in prison
At 19
Advancing from a minimum security facility to OSP
And on to ‘thunderdome’
Where nobody wants to go

Tried to arrange visits
Rejected countless times
Talked to OSP counselors
‘forget your son, concentrate on your other children’

We got a call
OSP does not call anyone
‘You need to see your son’

The visiting area was like a staging zone for zoo critters
Steel tables, benches, cemented in
Chain link walls and doors
He was led in by guards
Shackled head to toe
Made to sit
Unseeing eyes
No recognition
Indistinguishable utterances
He stunk to high heaven
Never looked our way

On the way home I had to pull over, off the freeway
I don’t remember the last time I cried
Maybe as a small child...
But
Never wept like that in my life
And have yet too since
Bitter
Helpless
Godless
Utter hopelessness

A week (?) later we got another call
He was being transferred to the psych ward across the street
Where ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’ was filmed

We were told he had quit eating entirely
Weighed 90 lbs
A guard carried him in his arms across the street

We were led to the visiting area
Typical booth like situation for visitors
Only, the other side of the glass was something from a zombie movie
We got to watch him attempt to drink milk and cry

My lady had a very hard time
I went alone
Weeks of visiting later, he was released
Just like that

After 7 years of maximum security 

to us

I do not do well when cleaning up men with uncontrolled body functions

Triage
Nut bins
Meds

It’s all a blur

Somewhere in there, when he was still cognizant, I did a bit of a fraught thing…

We talked about his options
He wanted to go camping

So

Him and I packed his meager belongings

Bought him some basic camp stuff

Drove him to the Trask river area


And dropped him off

while it began to rain

Ever do something that gave you immediate relief, knowing the end result would probably not be optimal? 

On the way back home, I tried not to think.

Still

Thoughts crept in

Maybe he’d just lie there curled in his sleeping bag
Inert
Oblivious
Until days later large birds of prey would dine on his remains

It’s all a blur

They found him 300 miles south
Incoherent

The Tillamook women’s mental health facility asked us to take him back 'he can't stay here'

More triage

Got him hooked up with a place called Luke-Dorf

General population nut bin for semi-functional goofballs
Then what they call the quad
Then paired up in a shared apartment
And now
On his own
On a budget

I figger the tax payer’s dollars for this are from this tax payer

During these times he’d ever so often not take his meds
Sometimes it was because they changed colors or shapes and he didn’t think they were right
Sometimes it was just because he thought he no longer needed them
Always ended with me going over there, reattaching his phone, and fishing his glasses outa the toilet.

He’s as functional now as you and me, first look.

As long as he takes his meds.

Sorry
This is jumbled time line mess
My lady can recite the events like they happened yesterday
7 or more years of them
I will not take her there


Thing is...today, he's a Christian

Not some goofball religious freak...just knows God...and at peace

I consider it a bit of a miracle

And I do believe in angels...in spite of ourselves


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

@Gary O' =  We all must find our own personal Shangri la, the place where we feel safe and happy.  Your son's a belief in God.  It's all well and good. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My son
 Excelled in academics
 Skipped grades
 Won awards
 Became somewhat sought after
 Mensa 

They say there's a thin line between genius and insanity, just like there's a thin line between laughing and crying.  Hope your son stays well.

Two of my favorite TV characters had Schizophrenia and feared madness.  Dr. Spencer Reid in "Criminal Minds'' and Det. Robert Goren in "Law & Order: Criminal Intent", they were/are both geniuses.


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## Knight (Nov 16, 2019)

norman said:


> I believe very strongly in the existence of Guardian Angels.    ✝


With 7.7 billion people on earth how does that work? Does everyone get a guardian angel?
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/


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## Trade (Nov 16, 2019)




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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

RE: "hearing voices"...God doesn't speak in an audible voice, at least not to me.....it's a much clearer voice than that. It's so clear and so right-on, precise, and pure in the message, perfect in the timing, and the power of it. It's also something that I clearly wouldn't have come up with on my own. And is always what's best for me. Only then do I know for sure it's from God.

It doesn't happen often...not every week, nor every month even...not to me anyway. It sometimes happens to me just after a deeply sincere heartfelt prayer, or a profound moment in life. And always when my relationship is close with Him. If I'm in a state of disobedience, not reading scripture, not prayerful, or not seeking Him first in all things, then I hear nothing. And that happens because I'm not perfect.

*Disclaimer:* You may call this post proselytizing but it's no more proselytizing than atheists, agnostics, and general naysayers  posting their opinions, thoughts, and beliefs to readers of a different persuasion. I have no interest in changing minds of those who don't want it. But I do have an interest in my freedoms of speech and religion.

`


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## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2019)

> God doesn't speak in an audible voice



Very true in my experience but there are times when God breaks through into our consciousness. There is no mistaking it when it happens yet we have a choice. We can listen or we can rationalise it away and go on our way as if it never happened.


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## treeguy64 (Nov 16, 2019)

I know Angels exist because I've worked with them, and see them, very often, around town: Angel Hernandez, Angel Garza, Angel Cavazos.........


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## RadishRose (Nov 16, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> *Ouch !! *It is  very harsh and barbaric  to be hurt in order to make those changes....many non-abrahamic religion people change *every* way you mentioned above without being harmed first. The motivation is because we realize what we are saying, doing, believing, not doing etc is not the best way to be or it is creating/causing negative and/or harm within our own lives or the lives of others or the world we live in.


 delete


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 16, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> WHooa, wait a minute, ...and this "Loving" Heavenly Father God allowed you to be, or he himself, slammed to the ground, inflicting MULTIPLE very painful potentially permanent Injuries to prove to you that he exists and show you how much he "loves" you....No thank you! I will pass on worshipping and following someone or something who shows its love and care for me with physical harm and suffering.
> 
> Did you show YOUR children how much you "loved" them by physically damaging them?
> 
> There are millions of positive loving ways to prove love and existence!


God is a loving Father, and He cares for each one of His children.  He is NOT going to slam to the ground or inflict multiple stuff on His children.  He is a healer, provider, protector and much, much more.  And God does not have to prove His love to anyone, it is ready and available to be chosen at any time.  I am hearing in your statements, anger, hurt and a lot of emotions.  Never rely or put your trust in your emotions.  They are so temporary.  Sure, bad things happen, but they are also temporary and miracles do happen.


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> My schizophrenic son has had that same experience (being dead serious here)



So Sorry for you and your sons suffering. I was lucky mine was just a temporary imbalance with just one bottle of Lithium minerals  I was cured. Boy was I glad! I


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 16, 2019)

A lot of this reminds me of my mother who, when something bad happened, would say that it was just God's way.  Then again, she was never able to explain why she believed that.
I'll stick to my own beliefs - there is no God, no Satan and no Angels - only the ones we imagine in our own minds.


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

treeguy64 said:


> I know Angels exist because I've worked with them, and see them, very often, around town: Angel Hernandez, Angel Garza, Angel Cavazos.........


Treeguy, you're sexist.  You didn't mention any Angelicas.  Argh!


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God is a loving Father, and He cares for each one of His children.  He is NOT going to slam to the ground or inflict multiple stuff on His children.  He is a healer, provider, protector and much, much more.  And God does not have to prove His love to anyone, it is ready and available to be chosen at any time.  I am hearing in your statements, anger, hurt and a lot of emotions.  Never rely or put your trust in your emotions.  They are so temporary.  Sure, bad things happen, but they are also temporary and miracles do happen.



Nope no anger, hurt etc. If there is any emotion it is that people still peddle false hope, false promises but their God never shows up and does as promised. This causes even more pain, hurt and suffering for people.  Just looking at facts, truth and the reality of life: I Extensively researched proclaimed Miracles. Me, and everyone else who has tried, have found little or no documented proof, just hearsay most of the time. Only things that are stated to be miracles and that have any documented proof are the "soft" healings that the human body and/or immune system is able to heal and does so for people of every spiritual practice and belief. Even Satanists and Atheists experience the "Soft" healings. 

Science is a better God then God is. Especially now with Stem Cell technology. The other is determining how to turn on the creation switch in the body. Our bodies know how to create whatever is needed. It did it when we were in the womb. It can do it again. The day is coming when we will be able to regrow teeth, eyes, cartilage, human organs etc.  I just hope they hurry up and I live long enough to be here when this is a reality to help end human suffering.


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> A lot of this reminds me of my mother who, when something bad happened, would say that it was just God's way.  Then again, she was never able to explain why she believed that.



I totally get your mother (no surprise there lol). If believers in God had to explain why they believe then it wouldn't be called "believing"...it would be called "knowing".

As you know, we only use a small portion of what our minds are capable of, and even if we used them to full capacity, how could it ever match the Creator of the Universe & all Living Matter? Think a perfect ginormous complicated web of plans that overlap, perfectly timed, etc etc. Sometimes, with patience, we eventually see why.

@Homeschoolie ....who created science? Who created the researchers of stem cell technology?

`


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

Angels do exist. If that is the label chosen to describe waves of energy, energy fields. Other labels given to the various types of energy that is in and all around us is Great Spirit, Animal Guides, Spirit Guides, Life Force Energy, Demons, Devils, Satan, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Thor, Osiris, Reiki and dozens of others. Lots of different ways to describe/label it.  Everything and everyone has energy waves/fields. This energy manifests in numerous ways. So, yep there are angels.


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## Knight (Nov 16, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God is a loving Father, and He cares for each one of His children.  He is NOT going to slam to the ground or inflict multiple stuff on His children.  He is a healer, provider, protector and much, much more.  And God does not have to prove His love to anyone, it is ready and available to be chosen at any time.  I am hearing in your statements, anger, hurt and a lot of emotions.  Never rely or put your trust in your emotions.  They are so temporary.  Sure, bad things happen, but they are also temporary and miracles do happen.


How does that idea that 
Quote
"He is NOT going to slam to the ground or inflict multiple stuff on His children. He is a healer, provider, protector and much, much more. "
match what took place at Sandy Hook elementary school where "his children" were slaughtered?


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

@Homeschoolie...Who created energy?

`


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> If there is any emotion it is that people still peddle false hope, false promises but their God never shows up and does as promised.



I wish religious people would explain why their wonderful God would allow this below.  What is the purpose of making these people suffer by being freaks of nature?


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

@Knight, there will always be Good and Evil because we were created with the ability to choose between the two. God wanted us to choose Good but unfortunately the world has turned their back on God. So heinous crimes are the result. As for the children who died. You may have heard me say this before, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.

PVC, God doesn't look at them as freaks like many do. He loves them the same as He loves you. The problem lies with those who don't accept them as beautiful souls...and looking beyond what's "normal".

`


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> @Knight, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.
> 
> PVC, God doesn't look at them as freaks like many do. He loves them the same as He loves you. The problem lies with those who don't accept them as beautiful souls...and looking beyond what's "normal".


Why let them be born in the first place, he could have kept them in ''heaven'' and not subjected them to the pain and terror inflicted by the killer.

MOST of the world sees them as freaks.  *You've NEVER stared at someone with a gross physical defect?*  WHY make them different, what did they do to him, they were born that way as infants BEFORE they even were able to commit a sin?


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## Gary O' (Nov 16, 2019)

Hey, this planet is effed up.
Been that way for a very long time.
It's all the results of godlessness.
Our freedom of choice.
We've not been very good with our choices.

We do still get a glimpse from time to time.





Looking forward to the new earth


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC...To answer your first question. Yes, God could have kept them in heaven and never born. God could have done that with all of us for that matter because we all suffer to one degree or another. But then there would be no reason for creating Earth at all if there was no one to live here to enjoy the flora and fauna, to learn lessons, to feel love and joy, to reach out and help our fellow man, to grow in many ways, to love our neighbor as we want to be loved, etc etc.

Your second question, you wanted God to make us all look beautiful? all look the same? 
all have no trials nothing to learn? Nothing to teach us anything? We'd all be a bunch of shallow robots. That wasn't God's plan.


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Soooo, Homeschoolie, you seem an interesting person, how's about putting some of yerself into yer profile, so we can kinda know who we're talking to.



Gary O updated my profile for you! Gotta go now...we love shopping and getting our fresh veggies, Saturday and Sunday Lunches and Dinners at our local Farmers Market!


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> Your second question, you wanted God to make us all look beautiful? all look the same?
> all have no trials nothing to learn? *Nothing to teach us anything?* We'd all be a bunch of shallow robots. That wasn't God's plan.


Not beautiful, just normal, like everyone else.  What exactly is God teaching those poor people above?  They didn't do anything wrong when they were born, they didn't commit any sins or refuse to love him.   You say we're born with free will, was it those people's ''free will'' to be born that way?


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## Gary O' (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> Not beautiful, just normal, like everyone else. What exactly is God teaching those poor people above? They didn't do anything wrong when they were born, they didn't commit any sins or refuse to love him. You say we're born with free will, was it those people's ''free will'' to be born that way?


It's just the results
Damn hard lesson


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC..."Free Will" comes after birth.

Look up the life of Andrea Bocelli. As you know, he's blind and one of the best singers on the planet. His mother was told to have an abortion because he would never be "normal". She refused (obviously) but she had to fight for him. What a talented beautiful blessing he has been to so many. He's showered with love and you can see he's happy. There are many heartwarming stories like his.

Those with down-syndrome used to be looked upon so negatively and also mothers were told to abort those children. But as we've all learned, they are the most loving, sweet, kind, precious souls that ever walked the planet. They are also talented and able to hold jobs quite well. They have genuine joy and lots of friends. God is watching who loves them and who doesn't.

America's Got Talent is full of talented children with handicaps. The last one I watched was an accomplished pianist and won the competition and the joy he felt just lit the whole place up. And the mother was right by his side the whole time and never stopped smiling...beaming from ear to ear. It was beautiful. God is watching. He is pleased.

Let's not forget Stephen Hawking...a genius and nothing held him back and highly respected, appreciated, and loved by many.


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> PVC..."Free Will" comes after birth.
> 
> Look up the life of Andrea Bocelli. As you know, he's blind and one of the best singers on the planet. His mother was told to have an abortion because he would never be "normal". She refused (obviously) but she had to fight for him. What a talented beautiful blessing he has been to so many. He's showered with love and *you can see he's happy*. There are many heartwarming stories like his.
> 
> ...


I didn't ask if these people adapt to their handicap.  Survival is our strongest instinct and we try to make do against all odds.  All those people may look ''happy'' in public, but I'm sure they suffer because of their disabilities and their feelings of being ''different''.  I know Bocelli has a beautiful voice, but only he knows his silent agonies of being blind.

Down-syndrome people can function if they're almost average intelligence, many are like babies and cannot work or care for themselves.

I asked why did God punish these people by making them different or disabled, WHAT is he teaching them, that suffering is a requisite of getting his love?


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## Sunny (Nov 16, 2019)

Fancicoffee, you are not offering any proof whatsoever. You are just repeating the ancient assertions of those who made up a deity to terrify people into following the religion they represented.  The amazing thing to me is that people in the modern world believe that the fact that someone many centuries ago claimed something was true constitutes "evidence."

As fuzzybuddy said, it is impossible to prove that something is _not _true. Let's say I believe that the tooth fairy is real. You claim that she isn't, she is just a fairy tale creature made up for little children. But can you prove that she isn't real? I insist that she is. She really, really exists. (I can add a few more "really's")

So who has the burden of proof, me or you?  I say something without any evidence whatever is true.  Because that's what I was taught as a little kid. You say no, it isn't.  I'd be the one who has to offer some proof, right?

And your repeated use of the word "created" comes right out of the Christian rule book. Science offers other evidence of its truth, evidence that _can _be proven. I prefer to go with that, as I live in the 21st century, not (as I said) in the 13th.


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> Let's not forget Stephen Hawking...a genius and nothing held him back and highly respected, appreciated, and loved by many.



And after a lifetime of research and study with a Genius mind he declared that there is no God.


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## Olivia (Nov 16, 2019)

I don't understand why anyone has to prove anything to anybody else. We only live once and as long as we do no harm why can't we just believe the way we want to?


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

Yes, I knew that Homeschoolie...God still loved him.

PVC...Possible answers to your question are limitless. What if all the severely handicapped people are really Angels?
Hebrews 13:2 says "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares". Angels look like any one of us.

We just don't know because the possibilities are endless.

I've said all I can say. I'm not saying it's not hard. God never said it would be easy either. He said we will all go through trials and tribulations. But life here and now is just a blink in the whole picture. We all just need to unselfishly do our very best that we can and look for the blessings all around us. And help others, give and receive love, and help our planet in whatever way we can.


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## Doomp (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> I think the BIGGEST problem I have with religion is that each religion believes they alone will go to ''heaven'' and everyone else will go to "hell''.



I'm Christian. I don't believe in Hell. A lot of us are open-minded.


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> ...studying 'Hell'...Unlike the popular vision of hell (burning forever), it's just the absence of God....death


Gary is right. Hell is the absence of God...death (I'll add spiritual death. We all have physical death)

`


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Olivia said:


> I don't understand why *anyone has to prove anything to anybody else*. We only live once and as long as we do no harm why can't we just believe the way we want to?


Olivia, no one here on this thread is saying that the others have to believe what we believe, this is just a DEBATE. 

Lara and I are at opposite ends of the debate, and so far neither of us is disrespecting the other by calling them a ''fool, stupid, ignorant'' etc.  As long as the dialogue is civil, I want to and even enjoy the back and forth.  It's doubtful that either of us will change our mind.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall said to describe the principle of free speech :
*"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" *
It has been erroneously attributed to Voltaire, when she wrote his biography under the pseudonym of S. G. Tallentyre


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> I've said all I can say. I'm not saying it's not hard. God never said it would be easy either. He said we will all go through trials and tribulations.



He also said "I am the Lord God Who HEALS Thee", "Ask and you will receive, give and it shall be given to you, pressed down and running over", "He (jesus) healed ALL who came to him", "He (jesus) healed ALL their diseases and infirmities", "I am coming back soon" and thousands of other Promises that just are not true.
Millions of people have wasted lifetimes with unwavering, deep, unquestioning, strong, laser beam focused faith, lived excellent loving, giving, compassionate lives and the God of the bible never showed up for them.

He ignores all of his promises so can't be trusted to show up for people at end of life!
Since he cant be trusted to do what he says now he can't be trusted to show up for us at the end.

It doesn't matter that I paraphrased from memory so these don't say exactly what YOUR version says since there are hundreds of translations of the bible saying these differently!


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> Yes, I knew that Homeschoolie...God still loved him.


You're saying that God loved Hawking by giving him that devastating disease starting at age 29 or so?  Do you know how he died?  His ALS eventually paralyzed his muscles until he was unable to breathe.  He suffocated to death.  Some loving!


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## Olivia (Nov 16, 2019)

That is what I was saying. Why does it even have to be a debate? And I'm talking about all sides with their beliefs. But, hey, that's human beings, So what the heck am I expecting. However as an individual I can do that. We do everything possible it seems. to separate ourselves. And to think all humans dead and alive today all came our of Africa and look how diverse we've become to the extent of killing each other because of our differences.  We'll keep doing that until the end of days, whether that be a giant sun burning our planet to a crisp or our version of God coming back down to earth to correct things. Take you choice.


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## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2019)

This discussion is taking some interesting turns. Two issues have recently been raised: suffering and difference. It brings to mind a book I read in my teens - Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Huxley was from a renowned scientific family and he depicted a godless Utopia where Science had created a perfect society and perfect humans using selective breeding of people ex utero. Nurtured in "test tubes" people were programmed for their role in life by careful indoctrination even before they became sentient. Disease was conquered because for every disease there was an inoculation and suffering was eliminated by the plentiful availability of a psychotropic drug that produced euphoric feelings without side effects.

In this brave new world, without the need for women to bear children, there is no need for marriage and sex is freely available to all, in fact it is considered rude to refuse it to anyone seeking congress. There is no need of any god and the only obligation of people is to stay within their biologically ordained strata of society and to be happy.

In contrast Huxley introduces a character who is primitive, a savage in the eyes of members of this society. He had been raised away from this society because his mother was an outcast for having allowed herself to become pregnant with him. His education was gained from two books - the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible. His head is filled with dangerous ideas of love, morality and sinfulness.

This book had a profound effect on me. It made me realise that to be fully human we need to embrace a world in which we experience pain and disappointment, grapple with right and wrong and allow ourselves and others the freedom to be different. It is also a world where we can feel joy and ecstasy in nature and human interaction but where despair and misery is the other side of that coin. This is the world created for us and there is wisdom and compassion in the design. Any world created by humankind, designed to eliminate all misery, is inferior to the one we are born into. Life in all its fulness is what Jesus offered to humanity. He did not serve it up fully cooked on a plate. We have to be co-creators of our world and Jesus pointed to the best way to do this.

At the time I read this book I was a science student and an atheist. Looking back I think I can see what Huxley was wrestling with. They are the same things mankind has always struggled to understand, and always will. This struggle is the basis of all religions and is why our species is so different to all else on this planet. We are not just flesh and blood - we are also spirit.


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> This book had a profound effect on me. It made me realise that to be fully human we need to embrace a world in which we experience pain and disappointment, grapple with right and wrong and allow ourselves and others the freedom to be different. It is also a world where we can feel joy and ecstasy in nature and human interaction but where despair and misery is the other side of that coin. This is the world created for us and there is wisdom and compassion in the design.* Any world created by humankind, designed to eliminate all misery, is inferior to the one we are born into.* Life in all its fulness is what Jesus offered to humanity. He did not serve it up fully cooked on a plate. We have to be co-creators of our world and Jesus pointed to the best way to do this.



I disagree with your bolded statement above.

Brave New World sounds like a Utopia to me.  Eventually, when humans have used and abused the earth's resources and those resources, like drinking water, have become scarce, the only solution is to choose the best of the best of humans to be able to survive on *this planet*.  Not in our lifetime, but it will happen.

Something similar, but not as restrictive, is the movie  "Gattaca'' where the same thing is done, but in Gattaca the ''inferior and imperfect'' are just saddled with the menial jobs.


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Olivia said:


> That is what I was saying. *Why does it even have to be a debate?* And I'm talking about all sides with their beliefs. But, hey, that's human beings, So what the heck am I expecting. However as an individual I can do that. We do everything possible it seems. to separate ourselves. And to think all humans dead and alive today all came our of Africa and look how diverse we've become to the extent of killing each other because of our differences.  We'll keep doing that until the end of days, whether that be a giant sun burning our planet to a crisp or our version of God coming back down to earth to correct things. Take you choice.



If debates make you uncomfortable, you don't have to participate or even read the thread.  Ignore us.

Some people actually enjoy debates.  They even have courses in school and college where they encourage debate.  We humans are very different in our reasonings, that is why there are thousands of religions and thousands of political differences and thousands of different lifestyles.  Like the French say,  "_Vive la difference_!"


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## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> I disagree with your bolded statement above.
> 
> Brave New World sounds like a Utopia to me.  Eventually, when humans have used and abused the earth's resources and those resources, like drinking water, have become scarce, the only solution is to choose the best of the best of humans to be able to survive on *this planet*.  Not in our lifetime, but it will happen.
> 
> Something similar, but not as restrictive, is the movie  "Gattaca'' where the same thing is done, but in Gattaca the ''inferior and imperfect'' are just saddled with the menial jobs.


Yes, I have seen the movie Gattaca. I think in the movie and in Huxley's book the point is made that to create any form of Utopia there must be restrictions on freedom and/or diversity. Eventually all that is created is dystopia. Humanity does not do well without freedom and something to strive for. We are not automatons, thank God.


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## Olivia (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> If debates make you uncomfortable, you don't have to participate or even read the thread.  Ignore us.
> 
> Some people actually enjoy debates.  They even have courses in school and college where they encourage debate.  We humans are very different in our reasonings, that is why there are thousands of religions and thousands of political differences and thousands of different lifestyles.  Like the French say,  "_Vive la difference_!"



You are totally misunderstanding me. I have been on debate boards for a couple of decades. 

No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?: What is the purpose?


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You are totally misunderstanding me. I have been on debate boards for a couple of decades.
> 
> No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?: What is the purpose?


Debates have nothing to do with ''harm being done'', they're about differences of opinion.

I don't care if people are religious.  The only religions I condemn are those that inflict pain or slavery or forbid freedom of choice.  That is one of MANY reasons why I love the US, freedom to be what I want to be as long as I obey the laws of the country.


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## Knight (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> @Knight, there will always be Good and Evil because we were created with the ability to choose between the two. God wanted us to choose Good but unfortunately the world has turned their back on God. So heinous crimes are the result. As for the children who died. You may have heard me say this before, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.


@Knight, there will always be Good and Evil because we were created with the ability to choose between the two. God wanted us to choose Good but unfortunately the world has turned their back on God. So heinous crimes are the result. As for the children who died. You may have heard me say this before, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He took those children home and surrounded them with perfect love and security.

Obviously evil people were part of the origin & using a fallen angel "Satan" as an excuse or scapegoat for what was inherit in the supposed creation is somehow ignored. 

 Genesis 1:26 New Living Translation (NLT)
26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth,* and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1:26&version=NLT
Then to further the truth that evil was part of the loving God the bible has a lot of references to the loving God killing kids. Really strange to me is the story of Noah & the logic of killing all living things except for Noah & his family. That would have been the prime time to rid earth of those that choose to be evil. Why would that loving supernatural being want to continue what was an error?

http://commontruth.com/ChildrenKilled.html*


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## Olivia (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> Debates have nothing to do with ''harm being done'', they're about differences of opinion.
> 
> I don't care if people are religious.  The only religions I condemn are those that inflict pain or slavery or forbid freedom of choice.  That is one of MANY reasons why I love the US, freedom to be what I want to be as long as I obey the laws of the country.



This is going round in circles. You're the one who said this is a debate and some people like it, 

I don't even understand your answer, So your argument is against religions that restrict freedom or cause pain or suffering. Where in this thread have you encountered that kind of belief be promulgated?


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## Lc jones (Nov 16, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> After reading the dialogue in this thread, and it evolving into is there a god, and on to hearing voices and the application of lithium, it so reminded me of something I posted in wunna my threads....
> 
> Sorry for posting again, but I need it fresh in my own mind from time to time
> 
> ...


Hooray!!!!!!


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

Olivia said:


> This is going round in circles. You're the one who said this is a debate and some people like it,
> 
> I don't even understand your answer, *So your argument is against religions that restrict freedom or cause pain or suffering*. Where in this thread have you encountered that kind of belief be promulgated?


Sorry for not being clear.  I was trying to say that it doesn't matter to me what religious people believe as long as ^ ^ ^ ^ .  The religion(s) on this thread do not do the above in bold.  We're just debating the differences in philosophy regarding religion and the belief in God and Angels.  Hope I made myself clear this time.


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## Olivia (Nov 16, 2019)

I agree with you about philosophy being the crux of the matter as to explaining beliefs vis a vis religion and to other ways of looking at life as to who are we and what are we doing here and why. Atheism and agnosticism do the same and find purpose in Humanism and/or making one's own purpose such as in Existentialism.


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 16, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> Nope no anger, hurt etc. If there is any emotion it is that people still peddle false hope, false promises but their God never shows up and does as promised. This causes even more pain, hurt and suffering for people.  Just looking at facts, truth and the reality of life: I Extensively researched proclaimed Miracles. Me, and everyone else who has tried, have found little or no documented proof, just hearsay most of the time. Only things that are stated to be miracles and that have any documented proof are the "soft" healings that the human body and/or immune system is able to heal and does so for people of every spiritual practice and belief. Even Satanists and Atheists experience the "Soft" healings.
> 
> Science is a better God then God is. Especially now with Stem Cell technology. The other is determining how to turn on the creation switch in the body. Our bodies know how to create whatever is needed. It did it when we were in the womb. It can do it again. The day is coming when we will be able to regrow teeth, eyes, cartilage, human organs etc.  I just hope they hurry up and I live long enough to be here when this is a reality to help end human suffering.


I am sorry you believe this way.  When a baby is born, that is a miracle, when the sun shines, that is a miracle, when you take your next breath that is a miracle.  There are so many miracles out there, small and big that you don't even begin to be able to count them.  I believe different.  I believe in God as my heavenly Father and He works miracles all the time all around me.  Besides the miracle thing, God is the one allowing mankind to discover stem cell research in the time He wants us to.  All things, are created for His good purpose at His timing.  All things.  Sure, there is human suffering.  Always has been.  But, God placed the stars in the sky, too numerous to count for a purpose, and He takes care of His creation all the time.  Check it out.  Set out to prove there is no God.  Try it.  Many atheists have done it.


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## treeguy64 (Nov 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> Treeguy, you're sexist.  You didn't mention any Angelicas.  Argh!


No, I never worked with any. I did tattoo an Angelina, though.


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## Keesha (Nov 16, 2019)

I see miracles daily. ❤
note: however I am not religious.


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## Catlady (Nov 16, 2019)

treeguy64 said:


> No, I never worked with any. I did tattoo an Angelina, though.


Okay, you're off the hook.  Angelina qualifies.


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## Ladybj (Nov 16, 2019)

I DEFINITELY believe in a higher Power - God/Universe/Angels.  Long story short, this is soooo true.  When my hubby and I were going through a very rough patch.. I had a dream I was walking with God and he told me (not verbatim) that I will be going through a hard time and don't worry because I will be ok.  And YES.. I went through a very rough period and I am ok.  Hubby and I were a week away from Divorce but we end up getting back together and now we get along SO MUCH better.... 35 years married and still a work in progress but so far, so GOOD!!


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I am sorry you believe this way.  When a baby is born, that is a miracle, when the sun shines, that is a miracle, when you take your next breath that is a miracle.  There are so many miracles out there, small and big that you don't even begin to be able to count them.  I believe different.  I believe in God as my heavenly Father and He works miracles all the time all around me.  Besides the miracle thing, God is the one allowing mankind to discover stem cell research in the time He wants us to.  All things, are created for His good purpose at His timing.  All things.  Sure, there is human suffering.  Always has been.  But, God placed the stars in the sky, too numerous to count for a purpose, and He takes care of His creation all the time.  Check it out.  Set out to prove there is no God.  Try it.  Many atheists have done it.


Me and millions of others already have...never showed up ....guess he is to busy holding up stars and taking care of the rest of his creation


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 16, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I am sorry you believe this way.  When a baby is born, that is a miracle, when the sun shines, that is a miracle, when you take your next breath that is a miracle.



No, No and No.  When a baby is born, that is a part of natural reproduction.  When the sun (one of billions in the known universe) shines, that is nuclear fusion and the next time you take a breath is respiration.  These things have evolved over billions of years.  They may appear 'miraculous', but they're not miracles.


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

Ruh Roh...let's not let this discussion evolve into evolution 
We've all probably been there done that over and over.


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## Lara (Nov 16, 2019)

Homeschoolie said:


> [God]never showed up ....guess he is to busy holding up stars and taking care of the rest of his creation


"He never showed up" for you but that doesn't mean He never showed up.

These scripture verses express that when someone becomes a believer he/she sees clearly the things that unbelievers are blinded to. That's why we will always disagree on spiritual matters. And I know you disagree with this☺

John 3:3.....Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

2 Corinthians 3:16.....but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away

John 9:25.....I was blind and now I see

Ephesians 5:8.....For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

`


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## Homeschoolie (Nov 16, 2019)

I  was a 100% sincerely all-in, lived it, felt it, loved it, believed it, walked the walk not just talk the talk,  had unwavering faith and no doubt no matter what for several decades.

It isn't just me, the Trinity has dismally failed and hundreds of thousands are taking off the blinders, detoxing from the indoctrination and brainwashing because we have sincerely given God our all; our hearts,  love, our trust,  time, money, dedication and service, literally our lives...but have found it is just not true!

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results...


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## Lc jones (Nov 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> "He never showed up" for you but that doesn't mean He never showed up.
> 
> These scripture verses express that when someone becomes a believer he/she sees clearly the things that unbelievers are blinded to. That's why we will always disagree on spiritual matters. And I know you disagree with this☺
> 
> ...


T


Lara said:


> "He never showed up" for you but that doesn't mean He never showed up.
> 
> These scripture verses express that when someone becomes a believer he/she sees clearly the things that unbelievers are blinded to. That's why we will always disagree on spiritual matters. And I know you disagree with this☺
> 
> ...


Exactly true!


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## norman (Nov 16, 2019)

Knight said:


> With 7.7 billion people on earth how does that work? Does everyone get a guardian angel?
> https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/


    Knight. first you must have a need for help, it is not a requirement that you believe they exist or are just hanging around until someone needs assistance.  God accepts everyone and if you will read the book (Bible) with the thought of seeking a path to understanding and enlightenment.  It was once explained to me that a spiritual soul dwells within our mind and body throughout our consciousness existence on Earth.  Gods (Higher Power) presence is within each 7.7 billion as individuals.  p.s. I also believe in aliens and like God there is no physical proof, but the Milky Way is estimated to contain over 100 billion stars.     I dunno.


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## Knight (Nov 16, 2019)

Norman

"Knight. first you must have a need for help, it is not a requirement that you believe they exist or are just hanging around until someone needs assistance." 

Sounds good until you think about the thousands of homeless people if not millions world wide .  Sure there is that saying God helps those that help themselves. Then we know there are millions that don't have the mental or physical capacity to help themselves. Why is that?


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## norman (Nov 16, 2019)

Knight said:


> Norman
> 
> "Knight. first you must have a need for help, it is not a requirement that you believe they exist or are just hanging around until someone needs assistance."
> 
> Sounds good until you think about the thousands of homeless people if not millions world wide .  Sure there is that saying God helps those that help themselves. Then we know there are millions that don't have the mental or physical capacity to help themselves. Why is that?


I hear you,  a few years ago I was witness to a wreck on the highway outside of Las Vegas when a guy lost control of his truck it turned over threw him out on the highway and a semi ran over him. I stopped and along with others said a prayer for him.   (Where was his Guardian Angel? )  I have witnessed many persons at the time of their final demise and my thoughts are:  Within that body and (brain) a spiritual soul that has been imprisoned and has now been released from a physical body, the same as you and I are imprisoned in our physical body and  our soul will be released at the time of our demise.   I have experienced being saved from death by a Guardian Angel and have experienced a spiritual visit from a deceased person..    I know this is heavy and I am not out to change any ones belief, be at peace with what makes you happy.  Sometime it is what it is even tho educated thinking and reasoning will cause a headache.


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## win231 (Nov 16, 2019)

I usually avoid such discussions because (as an atheist), I feel like I'm taking candy from a baby.
I overheard a similar discussion several years ago.  A non believer was in a group of mostly-religious people at a table next to me.  The non believer commented, "When the Federal building in Oklahoma was bombed, why did God make sure the day-care center on the first floor had 25 children who died in the explosion?"  The other people at the table stormed off in a huff.

My mom sometimes made me LOL.  When someone she hated died, she'd say "God took care of them."  But I'd make her really angry when I would mention someone she liked who died.


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## Gary O' (Nov 16, 2019)

win231 said:


> I usually avoid such discussions because (as an atheist), I feel like I'm taking candy from a baby


Yeah, I no longer debate with baby Christians either

The simplistic thought process is excruciating

Heh, baby atheists are even worse


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 17, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> No, No and No.  When a baby is born, that is a part of natural reproduction.  When the sun (one of billions in the known universe) shines, that is nuclear fusion and the next time you take a breath is respiration.  These things have evolved over billions of years.  They may appear 'miraculous', but they're not miracles.


Just look at Lara's post.  It is so true.


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## Gary O' (Nov 17, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> When a baby is born, that is a part of natural reproduction. When the sun (one of billions in the known universe) shines, that is nuclear fusion and the next time you take a breath is respiration. These things have evolved over billions of years. They may appear 'miraculous', but they're not miracles.


Too funny

Billions, trillions, quadrillions

Gotta add the years to make it feasible, don't we

Here's a thought;

Take the pieces to a basic watch
Put 'em all in a bag
Shake it a while......a loooong while
How long would it take for a functioning watch to happen?

I'll wait here


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## ronaldj (Nov 17, 2019)

the Bible says you might encounter angels unaware.......or as one five year old put it in a Christmas program...."angles in their underwear."


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## Gary O' (Nov 17, 2019)

Y'know, it's been mentioned several times here, that deaths of innocent babies, and other horrible things cannot possibly happen if there was a god of love, or even a god, any god

Thing is, this world has been screwed up
The results are horrible
He told us about it
...and made provision

_*“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man*_
*The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”*

Many a martyr knew this


Sure, some miracles, wonderful events happen
But, there's a purpose for those, beyond hope for this decrepit earth


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 17, 2019)

I wonder if Win231 has ever had the "there is no God" discussion with a Muslim. I'd pay money to watch that! It's hard for me to believe that this world, in all it's amazing diversity, is just a accident.


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## rgp (Nov 17, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I wonder if Win231 has ever had the "there is no God" discussion with a Muslim. I'd pay money to watch that! It's hard for me to believe that this world, in all it's amazing diversity, is just a accident.




  Well, can't speak for Win231 but I have had that discussion with a muslim.....It ended when I told him to pack his crap, and go back to Jordan......Oddly enough about two months later he did. Running from an ex wife , the law & the tax man.......LOL


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## Sunny (Nov 17, 2019)

"No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?"

Olivia, it's the "no harm is being done" that probably triggers off a lot of the debating.  When people are so sure that their beliefs are true that they are constantly stepping outside of their own boundaries to try to impose them on others, they definitely are doing harm. It may not be physical harm, or even an infringement on civil rights (though we all know religion has been both, and often continues to be), it also inflicts the harm of guilt, shame, making people feel inadequate because they don't accept someone else's "proof" (which is never really any proof at all), etc.

Reading this thread from the beginning, some members of this forum have an irritating (or amusing) smugness about being "right."  While this probably doesn't really inflict any harm on those of us who are mentally healthy, it is at best an annoying throwback to outdated religious beliefs, often delivered in an oh-so-holy, condescending manner. It not only invites "debate," it demands it.


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## Sunny (Nov 17, 2019)

> “Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves.”  Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer"


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## Knight (Nov 17, 2019)

At post # 394 The pro/ con needle hasn't moved.


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## win231 (Nov 17, 2019)

Sunny said:


> "No, what I am saying is that why do people have to argue each other about their beliefs in the first place if no harm is being done by these beliefs?"
> 
> Olivia, it's the "no harm is being done" that probably triggers off a lot of the debating.  When people are so sure that their beliefs are true that they are constantly stepping outside of their own boundaries to try to impose them on others, they definitely are doing harm. It may not be physical harm, or even an infringement on civil rights (though we all know religion has been both, and often continues to be), it also inflicts the harm of guilt, shame, making people feel inadequate because they don't accept someone else's "proof" (which is never really any proof at all), etc.
> 
> Reading this thread from the beginning, some members of this forum have an irritating (or amusing) smugness about being "right."  While this probably doesn't really inflict any harm on those of us who are mentally healthy, it is at best an annoying throwback to outdated religious beliefs, often delivered in an oh-so-holy, condescending manner. It not only invites "debate," it demands it.


I agree that no one should argue about their religious beliefs.  But, ya know, non believers are not the problem.  The problem is when religious people tell others, "You're going to hell because....."


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 17, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Take the pieces to a basic watch
> Put 'em all in a bag
> Shake it a while......a loooong while
> How long would it take for a functioning watch to happen?



That is a totally illogical question.
A watch is just that - a watch.  It is not a living organism that has the capacity to evolve.  
You can wait as long as you want.  The watch won't change, but living organisms probably will.  They have done for billions of years.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 17, 2019)

Believers believe. They don't need proof. As an Atheist, I could care less what you believe, as long as your beliefs  don't impinge on my life. But I can't say most believers are content with that. I have found that believers are intent on spreading their own particular brand of belief. And because they "believe", they feel that gives them the right to proselytize, to insist that I conform to their particular morality, and to berate my beliefs. And quite frankly, what you believe, no matter how fervently you believe; does not make it so for me.


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## Knight (Nov 17, 2019)

Belief that there are angels showing up to help in dire situations for some  but somehow don't for others is a mystery to me. The most often used phrases for any event are free will or man's choice. IMO those don't apply. If either of those apply would someone explain how. 

Another often used phrase is. It's God's plan. Why would a God want harm in any form to be foisted on some & not others. Attributing horrible happenings to Satan doesn't seem reasonable. Satan supposedly tempted Eve so why not try to sway humans to his side by providing good experiences? 

I really don't understand how only good is attributed to supernatural beings.


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

win231 said:


> My mom sometimes made me LOL.  When someone she hated died, she'd say "God took care of them."  But* I'd make her really angry when I would mention someone she liked who died.*



They say that we should be glad when we die because we'll get to be with God ("we" as in religious people).  Yet, your mother didn't seem to feel that way about her friends.  She wanted them to stay alive and not "meet God".


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## Gary O' (Nov 17, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> The watch won't change, but *living* organisms *probably* will. They have done for* billions *of years


...and their *life* came from....


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

I've noticed when posters here give an example of having seen an angel, they give examples where someone has been kind to them or said something sweet or done them a favor.  I've done ALL of those things for others and I can assure you that I am no angel.

The only time I would believe it was an angel is if it acted like the old guy on the bridge in "It's a wonderful life".  He appeared out of nowhere and disappeared instantly.  Now THAT would make me a believer in Angels!


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## Gary O' (Nov 17, 2019)

This discussion, debate, argument is a bit of a tired one.
Age old questions, age old answers

Somebody poke me when sumpm new is bantered around.

All you guys are lovable, no matter yer positions on this subject 

..and that's key, in this life, and whatever comes after

Seniors do rock


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> *This discussion, debate, argument is a bit of a tired one.*
> Age old questions, age old answers
> 
> Somebody poke me when sumpm new is bantered around.
> ...


I don't do croswords puzzles, am not smart enough and don't have the patience.  I use debates as my ''mind stimulators'', they keep my gray matter stimulated and young, just like Gary in that photo.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

This thread gets "curiouser and curiouser" as Alice would say. The ones who hate religion and hate debating are the ones who continue to post repeats of their own belief about why there are no angels or no God and continue calling the other side proselytizers when in fact they are the ones hell-bent on changing the minds of the believers. And the thread goes on and on and on.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> This thread gets "curiouser and curiouser" as Alice would say. The ones who hate religion and hate debating are the ones who continue to post repeats of their own belief about why there are no angels or no God and continue calling the other side proselytizers when in fact they are the ones hell-bent on changing the minds of the believers. And the thread goes on and on and on.



What does anybody expect when they post their opinions on a posting forum? There will be those that agree and those that don't. It's best not to post something that's going to hurt your feelings when you know that a controversial topic is going to do that.  No one can just post something like that and not expect to elicit other maybe really mean responses.. Did Jesus bash people's opinions when they didn't agree with his? No, he lived his belief. He showed by his actions who he was and what he believed. He didn't curse those who nailed him to the cross. He asked his Father to forgive them because they know not what they do.


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## rgp (Nov 17, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Believers believe. They don't need proof. As an Atheist, I could care less what you believe, as long as your beliefs  don't impinge on my life. But I can't say most believers are content with that. I have found that believers are intent on spreading their own particular brand of belief. And because they "believe", they feel that gives them the right to proselytize, to insist that I conform to their particular morality, and to berate my beliefs. And quite frankly, what you believe, no matter how fervently you believe; does not make it so for me.



   "as long as your beliefs  don't impinge on my life. "

 And there's my rub........their belief does , their organizations pay no tax. That means the rest of us must make up the difference , and it's huge..........there's the impingement.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> "as long as your beliefs  don't impinge on my life. "
> 
> And there's my rub........their belief does , their organizations pay no tax. That means the rest of us must make up the difference , and it's huge..........there's the impingement.



You are wrong. Churches do pay taxes, but hell if I'm going to do your research work for you.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> ...Did Jesus bash people's opinions when they didn't agree with his? No, he lived his belief.


Well, Jesus did knock over the money-changer's tables in the synagogue and called them a den of thieves because they didn't agree with Him that it was a house of prayer...Matthew 21:12


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Well, He did knock over the money-changer's tables in the synagogue and called them a den of thieves...Matthew 21:12



When someone said that a person can be one's own worst enemy, I think that would describe what you just posted. Jesus is love which is not the way you're been describing him. It seems more like you want to push people away.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> When someone said that a person can be one's own worst enemy, I think that would describe what you just posted. Jesus is love which is not the way you're been describing him. It seems more like you want to push people away.


"It’s always good to remember the Lord’s purpose for what He makes. Whether it’s the temple, the church, marriage, the family, or life itself, we should follow God’s design and seek to honor Him. Any twisting or perverting of God’s design for selfish purposes will draw the Lord’s righteous anger."

I think you should familiarize yourself with the Bible story before accusing others of "pushing people away or being their own worst enemy". After all, you did say, ".Did Jesus bash people's opinions when they didn't agree with his? No, he lived his belief." And I gave you the biblical answer.

Or if you don't have a Bible you could read this: https://www.gotquestions.org/house-prayer-den-thieves.html


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Jesus loves you, Lara. And that's what matters because it's love that God created people for--to love him and one another. Words are just words unless you live them. 

_1 Corinthians 13:1 
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal._


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

When you said "words are just words unless you live them" is condescending. Are you directing them toward Jesus or toward me? Or both? If it's both then I guess I'm in good company


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

God speaks to those will listen. God spoke to me in my heart to tell you that love is everything. However you take it is up to you.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia, you said earlier that you lean toward Buddhism which is a religion that doesn't believe in God. But now you are saying you believe in God and are "counseling" me using Biblical scripture and even conversing with God. Are you a Christian now?


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

I lean toward Buddhism in philosophy. My dad is a Japanese Buddhist. I do believe in God, but I also believe that God is a creator over all, however people believe in him. Yes, I am a Christian. Take that as you wish.


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You are wrong. Churches do pay taxes, but hell if I'm going to do your research work for you.


I just googled it =  They pay some but not property taxes or income taxes, which would be pretty hefty:
*Churches do* not *pay* property *taxes* or basic income *taxes*. But *churches do pay* the employer portion of federal social security (FICA) *taxes* for their non-clergy employees. *Churches* also often *pay* or collect state sales *taxes* on the tangible personal property they sell or purchase.
https://blog.oup.com/2018/09/does-tcja-tax-churches/


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> I believe that each individual's answer...is finally based on one's philosophy of life, whether that be a religious belief or just about any thing else. I personally lean more to the Buddhist philosophy, about no birth, no death, although I don't really see where one kind of belief negates any other.





			
				Olivia said:
			
		

> I am a Christian


How do you define "Christian"?


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

The following was in response to PVC's post up above. 

Why are you sorry? It says that churches do pay taxes. And ALSO property taxes. I worked for a mainline Christian church for eight years before I retired. And property taxes were paid for properties that were not used for a church purpose. I worked in the property management department of the church.

And also why do people not understand that there are many denominations for Christianity and not all are far right fundamentalist? That's why I hate religion being debated on a forum such as this one. Each person thinks they know about everything about anything. I don't like posting about this kind of stuff but sometimes you just have to. It makes me feel like looking for some other kind of forum, or better yet, none at all because no matter where, one just can't get away from this kind of crap.

Is that really right? Is that really? And so I should keep my mouth shut. I have up to now, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> How do you define Christianity?



Loving God and Jesus Christ.

And people whatever religion they are.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Why do you love Jesus?


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> It makes me feel like looking for some other kind of forum, or better yet, none at all because no matter where, one just can't get away from this kind of crap.  Is that really right? Is that really? And so I should keep my mouth shut. I have up to now, but I just couldn't stand it anymore.


Hey, we humans are like snowflakes, not ONE of us is exactly alike.  So, if you want to avoid people who disagree with you, you might as well become a hermit in some mountain cave and avoid seeing other humans.  This here is just a debate, and like *Knight said in post #394 =  "At post # 394 The pro/ con needle hasn't moved. "* LOL It's true, we believe what we believe.


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Why do you love Jesus?


Oh hell, I could start another debate about JESUS, but I'll try not to.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

It's been done anyway, PVC. I'm just confused about Olivia's posts.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

I said what I said, and that's all I'm saying. You can like it or not, but I'm not a donkey following your carrots.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

It's not up to me to like it or not. I carry no carrot. You haven't said anything yet anyway. I'm just confused about your previous posts. Maybe your confused. I don't know. Peace.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> It's been done anyway, PVC. I'm just confused about Olivia's convictions.



In spite of your confusion, God still loves you, which shows he has the patience of Job.


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## Sunny (Nov 17, 2019)

Their life came from the same place that everything else came from, Gary. It's a force of nature. There's nothing magic about life, it just _is. _


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia, no need to get hostile.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Olivia, no need to get hostile.



God loves you Lara, in spite of yourself.


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## Lara (Nov 17, 2019)

Now, you're repeating yourself. I guess you don't know the answer to my question in post #420. I'll drop it there.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

Oh sweet Lara. Just wants to be friendly I appreciate that.


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## Pepper (Nov 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Why do you love Jesus? I'm just asking because the Jews love Jesus too but don't believe He was who He said He was.


You don't know what you're talking about here, Lara.  Leave it alone, please.


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## win231 (Nov 17, 2019)

Somehow, I just knew I'd be ROFLOL'ing at these posts....sooner or later.

At one place I worked, I also had a good laugh.  My supervisor who was Philippine was having a conversation with an outside sales rep who was Jamaican.  I walked into the office after my lunch break & heard her saying, "No....Jesus is Lord."  Then I heard my supervisor say, "No, Buddha is Lord." After they went back & forth a few times, I couldn't resist.  I said, "Satan is Lord....I worship Satan."  She looked at me, her eyes got real big & she let out a scream & ran out of the room.  My supervisor & I & everyone else in the office laughed so hard we had tears rolling down our cheeks.


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You are wrong. Churches do pay taxes, but hell if I'm going to do your research work for you.


Olivia is correct. Having been congregation treasurer and also treasurer for a not for profit long day care centre I can assert that there are some taxes that congregations must pay and some that they are exempt from because there are not for profit enterprises. If a church is selling anything and making profit, it must pay appropriate tax, probably at corporate rates but I could not say because we never made much of a surplus, let alone any profit.

Just as some corporations structure their finances to avoid paying taxes I do not doubt that some mega churches do the same thing. In both cases the laws should be changed to prevent this happening. However the idea that all churches are draining the public purse is false and it doesn't take into account money, time and effort that members of the church contribute to the community.

I have just returned from helping out at our church playgroup. We run it with two volunteers and one paid worker. Her pay does not come out of the church budget because we don't have enough money.  We are supported by a local licenced workers' club. They distribute grants to community groups that they approve of because that is a condition of their gambling licence. Most years we have been successful in our grant application for $5,000. When we are not, we run it with just two volunteers. I do the morning tea twice a week and I bear the cost of most of it. The parents contribute a piece of fruit. They also pay $5 per visit if they have it. That money goes to buy new toys, replace children's size  furniture when it wears out and buy craft materials. The congregation bears the cost of electricity etc and there is no rental charge for using church premises.

Last Friday evening we put on a kiddie disco in the church and supplied a light supper of fruit, sausage sizzle and chocolate cake for all. At no charge.

I can assure you that we give more to that group of parents, grandparents and children much more than we ask from them. Hardly any of them are members of our church but that does not matter.


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## Catlady (Nov 17, 2019)

@Warrigal
According to my link on post #416,  "*Churches do* not *pay* property *taxes* or basic income *taxes*.''   They do pay taxes on other things, which is minor compared to the taxes they save on property and income.


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## Olivia (Nov 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> @Warrigal
> According to my link on post #416,  "*Churches do* not *pay* property *taxes* or basic income *taxes*.''   They do pay taxes on other things, which is minor compared to the taxes they save on property and income.



I don't want to argue anymore, but churches do pay property taxes and income taxes. It's on non church use properties and non-clergy employees.


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2019)

As far as Australia goes you are correct but for one item. Income tax is paid for both clergy and non clergy employees. Technically the church isn't paying the tax, the employee is and the church is just forwarding it on to the taxation department. We had to pay Goods and Services Tax if we rented out the church and on any other income derived from trading but we could balance that against GST we paid on any items we bought for the purpose of worship. In other words, there was no difference to the way value added tax was calculated for a church or a business.  Contributions from the congregation were neither tax exempt nor subject to tax because they are all personal donations after the appropriate personal income has been paid. Contrary to popular belief, money placed in the plate cannot be used as a tax deduction (except sometimes if it is designated for a building fund or a war memorial).

Like all matters of taxation, the situation can be very confusing but the heart of the matter is that churches are usually treated like all other non profit organisations. If they start making profits then taxation applies for those activities that are profitable..


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## Invictus (Nov 18, 2019)

There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence to prove the existence of angels, spirits, or any gods, and there is also absolutely no objective verifiable evidence to prove that they don't exist...No one knows either way with any absolute certainty...It all comes down to what each person chooses to believe and what not to believe in.


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## Trade (Nov 18, 2019)




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## rgp (Nov 18, 2019)

*Churches* and religious organizations are generally exempt from income *tax* and receive other favorable treatment under the *tax* law; however, certain income of a *church* or religious organization may be subject to *tax*, such as income from an unrelated business.


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## Sunny (Nov 18, 2019)

Interesting how this thread has morphed from belief in angels to the details of tax law! ( Good way to get me out of a conversation in a hurry.)  

Anyway, to get back to the "angels" question, let me share an event that happened to me a while back. Due to a combination of medications for heart and blood pressure issues, one morning I woke up to see a kindly woman standing at the foot of my bed. She was not anyone I knew, but I knew she was kind and was watching over me. She was not dressed like an "angel," just wearing ordinary clothes, appeared somewhere in her 40's or so, and looked motherly, although she was not my mother either.

I was not dreaming, I was wide awake, and wondered who she was, and why she was standing by my bed.  This illusion lasted probably for just a few seconds, then she went away.  Afterwards, I googled the medications, and found that visual hallucinations were indeed one of the possible side effects of one of them. I called my doctor and made an adjustment; it's never happened again.

So.... what if, due to my early training, I was inclined to believe she was an angel?  I would probably be arguing that this was "proof" that angels really do exist.  I wonder how many religious miracles stemmed from the effects of various chemicals, food, alcohol, whatever on our brains!


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

There are no angels.  The Bible was written by MEN about 1500 years before they figured out that the earth wasn't flat.  I believe that it is a collection of stories and explanations written by ignorant (not stupid) people in an effort to explain what they were unable to understand.  (Belief in Noah's Ark pushes the limit of my tolerance for gullibility.)  I'm still trying to figure out how there can be a "version" (King James) of the word of God.  Religion, ANY religion, is for the comfort of those who need it and to offer some type of explanation as to the purpose/meaning of life, however implausable.   Religion is, at best, merely organized wishful-thinking...at worst, big business.  I believe that man created God.


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## Catlady (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> I was not dreaming, *I was wide awake, and wondered who she was*, and why she was standing by my bed.  This illusion lasted probably for just a few seconds, then she went away.  Afterwards, I googled the medications, and found that visual hallucinations were indeed one of the possible side effects of one of them. I called my doctor and made an adjustment; it's never happened again.
> 
> So.... what if, due to my early training, I was inclined to believe she was an angel? * I would probably be arguing that this was "proof" that angels really do exist.*  I wonder how many religious miracles stemmed from the effects of various chemicals, food, alcohol, whatever on our brains!


Very interesting story.  Funny that the woman was someone you never met before.  Sometimes I remember my dreams and always wonder why I dream of people I have never met.  Does your ''angel'' or the people in my dream even exist?

I had to have my first dog, Ginger, euthanized after an expensive surgery and after her pancreas cancer returned.  I was very upset about it for many days.  I was working at my computer one night and at the side of my eyes I ''saw'' her walking, then I saw her looking back at me and then disappear.  I looked and she was not there.   The whole thing only lasted a few seconds.   I KNOW it was just an illusion, probably my mind trying to get me to accept her death.  I did feel better after that.  The brain is our most complex and mysterious organ.


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Having suffered an aortic aneurysm, my father "died" for three minutes while in helicopter transit to the hospital.  When we told him about it later, his response was, "I guess that was my big chance to have an out of body experience but it didn't happen...nothing.  That really pisses me off."  You had to know my father to appreciate that statement.  He wanted an answer and got nothing...because there IS nothing.  That's proof enough for me.


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## Catlady (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Having suffered an aortic aneurysm, my father "died" for three minutes while in helicopter transit to the hospital.  When we told him about it later, his response was, "I guess that was my big chance to have an out of body experience but it didn't happen...nothing.  That really pisses me off."  You had to know my father to appreciate that statement.  He wanted an answer and got nothing...because there IS nothing.  That's proof enough for me.


Maybe when people die they're forced to sign an NDA by St Peter before passing through the golden gate?  We never hear what really happens after we ''go home''


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

"Home" sounds boring as hell to me.  (mixed metaphor)  Is it some kind of ethereal existance without substance or meaning? What exactly does one DO for eternity? I'd ask them to send me back at age 18, retaining all the knowledge I've accumulated.  (I wouldn't want to miss that blind date on which I met my wife.) Now THAT would be heaven to me!


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> Maybe when people die they're forced to sign an NDA by St Peter before passing through the golden gate?  We never hear what really happens after we ''go home''


That's why it's called a near death experience....we come back to tell about what happened before actually dying. Once we're dead we don't come back to earth to talk about life after death. We won't want to come back!


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Lara said:


> That's why it's called a near death experience....we come back to tell about what happened before actually dying. Once we're dead we don't come back to earth to talk about life after death.


Once we're dead, we don't come back to earth for the simple reason that we didn't go anywhere.  We're dead.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Once we're dead, we don't come back to earth for the simple reason that we didn't go anywhere.  We're dead.


I agree. You will be dead because that's what you believe. I will be alive because that's what I believe.


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Believing, wishing and hoping will not make it so.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:
			
		

> Believing, wishing and hoping will not make it so.


Not for you it won't. Believing will make it so for me. You are you. I am I. We will be treated as individuals.


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Treated by whom?  That's the real underlying question.  Is there a "whom?...the basic crux of religion.


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## Olivia (Nov 18, 2019)

For myself I have no interest in what happens after death.  But it seems to be an obsession with some people who you would think wouldn't care either.  I'm more concerned in what happens in the living years


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:
			
		

> Treated by whom? Is there a whom?


I believe God has already written me in His Book of Life. I will meet Him and Jesus as we review my earthly life. Jesus will be my advocate in front of God (like a lawyer would in court so to speak). I believe this because it says this in the Bible...and I'm a Bible believer


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## Sunny (Nov 18, 2019)

So then, Lara, why do you have this need to keep repeating your belief in all this nonsense, over and over, on this forum?  Clearly, you haven't convinced anyone.  If I believed in the kind of deity you believe in, and "knew" what that deity is doing, has done, how he/she/it feels about me, and felt secure that I had the ultimate truth of the universe in my brain, because somebody wrote it in a book thousands of years ago... well, I'd be quiet and content with that knowledge.

It's beginning to sound to me like you are trying very hard to convince yourself. ("Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain,"  the man in this case being the voice of rational truth?)

"I'm a Bible believer?"  Really?  Including chopping off hands of thieves, executing those who violate the rules of the Sabbath, not eating pork or shellfish, not mixing certain materials in your clothing, saying that honoring your father and mother (no matter what they do) is on the same level as telling people not to kill, the earth is a little over 5,000 years old no matter what science tells us, following one's ****** proclivities or thinking for oneself are punishable offenses....  that Bible?


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Because she has free will and a right to


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Clearly, you haven't convinced anyone.


That's where you're confused. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm answering some good questions that Nautilus has intelligently and thoughtfully asked me personally. And I have respectfully answered them for him. It would be nice if you could also show respect for others who thoughtfully post.


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## Catlady (Nov 18, 2019)

Lara said:


> That's why it's called a near death experience....we come back to tell about what happened before actually dying. *Once we're dead we don't come back to earth to talk about life after death.* We won't want to come back!



Why not?  It would be great PR.  If they would come visit us and tell us about that great heaven and how happy they are there, earthlings would have proof of a hereafter and would want to live a good life to be able to qualify for that heaven.  Crime and violence on Earth would be almost non-existent.  That would be a great way for God to get us to behave.  But, I'm sure you will tell us that he would rather we find out the hard way.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> Why not?  It would be great PR.  If they would come visit us and tell us about that great heaven and how happy they are there, earthlings would have proof of a hereafter and would want to live a good life to be able to qualify for that heaven.  Crime and violence on Earth would be almost non-existent.  That would be a great way for God to get us to behave.  But, I'm sure you will tell us that he would rather we find out the hard way.


Good question. "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God". If God did away with faith and choice by proving everything visually to us then He would have a bunch of robots instead of a relationship with those who have faith in Him, love Him, trust Him, and obey Him because they have read and studied His Word. He wanted a relationship with those who believe by faith and choose to love Him. That's what it says in the Bible.


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## win231 (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Believing, wishing and hoping will not make it so.


And, according to Dionne Warwick & Dusty Springfield, it won't get me into your arms.


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## Olivia (Nov 18, 2019)

win231 said:


> And, according to Dionne Warwick, it won't get me into your arms.



No, that was Dusty Springfield.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

win231 said:


> And, according to Dionne Warwick, it won't get me into your arms.


haha...that's funny but believing will get you into Jesus arms.


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## win231 (Nov 18, 2019)

Olivia said:


> No, that was Dusty Springfield.


Yes, she also recorded that song.  I have both Dionne's & Dusty's versions.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 18, 2019)

Lara said, "
That's where you're confused. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm answering some good questions that Nautilus has intelligently and thoughtfully posted. And I have respectfully answered them for him. It would be nice if you could also show respect for others who thoughtfully post."
 Sorry Lara, nobody is buying that. You're  here to preach your version of your religious belief. I don't remember this forum getting a Biblical Expert on staff. As I have said, what you believe is what you believe, as long as it does doesn't impede on me. Yet, someone's religious belief does not entitle anyone to question another beliefs. Nor does it entitle anyone to belittle others in this forum.
Maybe if some practiced what Christ said, rather than merely read it.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Fuzzy says...Sorry Lara, nobody is buying that.
Assuming you're correct and all-knowing, that is their choice.
I applaud free choice. God created them to have free choice

Fuzzy says...You're  here to preach your version of your religious belief. 
I agree! Viva la Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion!

Fuzzy says...I don't remember this forum getting a Biblical Expert on staff. I agree! No one is a Biblical expert. It's still available to be read and studied by anyone who wants to until He calls us Home.

Fuzzy says...As I have said, what you believe is what you believe, as long as it does doesn't impede on me. I can't control what you read but you surely can. I know you're stronger than to feel forced to read my posts and feeling all impeded upon. Just as I don't have to read your posts or give a wit.

Fuzzy says...Yet, someone's religious belief does not entitle anyone to question another beliefs. Nor does it entitle anyone to belittle others in this forum. Are you talking about what you are doing right now to me? I certainly haven't belittled anyone. Maybe you have something going on that is causing you to take online forum posts personally. We're just a bunch of old seniors having fun debating and sharing. Let your guard down and enjoy yourself.

Fuzzy says...Maybe if some practiced what Christ said, rather than merely read it. Yes you and I and everyone on the planet should try our best to do just that at all times.

Peace, Love, Dove


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

I submit these posts only as "think pieces."  I have no intention to be critical, only skeptical.  I have alway wondered why the Bible only addresses events in the Middle East.  Several little things have been omitted...like North, South and Central America, the Far East, Australia, about 98% of Africa, etc....the residences of probably about 95% of the world population.  Could it be that the MEN in the Middle East who wrote the Bible were only aware of the existance of their particular geographical area?  God would have known better and "commissioned" Bibles to be written in all languages for reading in all points of the globe.  Salvation was only offered to the residents of the Middle East?  Billions have died without having been given the opportunity to know Jesus?  That's God's plan?  If any of this makes sense, it's beyond my comprehension.


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## Sunny (Nov 18, 2019)

> believing will get you into Jesus arms.



Oh, brother.  What a perfect line for any demagogue selling any line of crapola. Plus a pretty good country/western line.

Keesha, how would you equate the above statement of Lara's with your belief that we have free will?  Can we really say that being dictated to, as to what our beliefs should be, fits in with free will?  Isn't that a bit like a tyrannical parent saying, "Well, it's your choice. It's entirely up to you. Either you behave as I tell you to, and you think and believe as I tell you to, or you go sit in the corner for several hours, or lose your allowance for a month, or submit to any physical punishment I care to inflict on you."  That is not free will in my book!

Lara is not demonstrating free will.  She is acting like someone who is terrified of doubting anything in the Bible.


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## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> I submit these posts only as "think pieces." I have no intention to be critical


Same here. As far as the rest of your post about the middle east, I'll have to get back to you later. It's another great question.


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> That is not free will in my book!
> 
> Lara is not demonstrating free will.  She is acting like someone who is terrified of doubting anything in the Bible.


Well Sunny, debating religion really isn’t my thing since I’m not the least but religious BUT since being on this forum I have always seen Lara committed and loyal to her beliefs to the this point and I happen to admire her dedication.

I don’t have to agree with what she’s saying but she has JUST as much RIGHT to state HER beliefs as YOU do to oppose them. Its called ‘free will.’

Nobody forced her to post her thoughts. She did it with her ‘free will,’ just as you opposed her comments with YOUR ‘free will.’ Nobody forced you to post. It was YOUR choice or decision.

Also, nobody is forced to read these posts. You ALL do so at your own ‘free will.’


----------



## Trade (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Plus a pretty good country/western line.


----------



## Pepper (Nov 18, 2019)

Trade, lately you are using media to speak for you!  This would make a good game..........no talking unless you're quoting!


----------



## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Lara:  To me, Christian responses to my inquiries (concerning the Middle East, Noah's Ark, how the earth was propagated with Eve being the only woman, etc.) is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes.  When it becomes obvious that the pegs aren't going to fit, they play the "you must have faith" card.  Noah gathered two kangaroos, pandas and Galopagos tortoises?  Two of every insect on the planet?  Two of every dinosaur species...as is propounded by "The Ark Encounter?"  It would seem to me that belief in the Bible needs to be an all or nothing proposition.  If one aspect is questioned, isn't it all to be suspect?  Wouldn't Biblical examination come under the heading of free will?  I would hope so.


----------



## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Lara:  To me, Christian responses to my inquiries (concerning the Middle East, Noah's Ark, how the earth was propagated with Eve being the only woman, etc.) is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes.  When it becomes obvious that the pegs aren't going to fit, they play the "you must have faith" card.  Noah gathered two kangaroos, pandas and Galopagos tortoises?  Two of every insect on the planet?  Two of every dinosaur species...as is propounded by "The Ark Encounter?"  It would seem to me that belief in the Bible needs to be an all or nothing proposition.  If one aspect is questioned, isn't it all to be suspect?  Wouldn't Biblical examination come under the heading of free will?  I would hope so.


That’s a GREAT post.


----------



## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> I submit these posts only as "think pieces."  I have no intention to be critical, only skeptical.  I have alway wondered why the Bible only addresses events in the Middle East.  Several little things have been omitted...like North, South and Central America, the Far East, Australia, about 98% of Africa, etc....the residences of probably about 95% of the world population.  Could it be that the MEN in the Middle East who wrote the Bible were only aware of the existance of their particular geographical area?  God would have known better and "commissioned" Bibles to be written in all languages for reading in all points of the globe.  Salvation was only offered to the residents of the Middle East?  Billions have died without having been given the opportunity to know Jesus?  That's God's plan?  If any of this makes sense, it's beyond my comprehension.


This should be a lengthy answer but there's no way I could post it all here...nor are lengthy posts popular. And I'd rather a biblical scholar go into that for you since prophesy is complicated. But the short answer is that the Middle East is where the Holy Lands are, due to the OT prophesies leading there. Jesus Christ's birth was foretold (the coming of the Messiah) and prophesy was fulfilled as Christ was a descendent from the Jews in an extensive genealogy.

Salvation wasn't "only offered to the residents of the Middle East". It's offered worldwide but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days. It was prophesied in the Old Testament that in the future (which is now with the internet and tv) that communication around the world would be fast and far reaching. Now it is. There are still pockets of areas (like remote tribes) who have not heard the gospel....and as you say, billions more. The Bible says those people will not be held accountable for what they have never heard. Those who have heard (or read), will be held accountable. Children under the age of reason will also not be held accountable.


----------



## Lara (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Lara:  To me, Christian responses to my inquiries (concerning the Middle East, Noah's Ark, how the earth was propagated with Eve being the only woman, etc.) is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes.  When it becomes obvious that the pegs aren't going to fit, they play the "you must have faith" card.  Noah gathered two kangaroos, pandas and Galopagos tortoises?  Two of every insect on the planet?  Two of every dinosaur species...as is propounded by "The Ark Encounter?"  It would seem to me that belief in the Bible needs to be an all or nothing proposition.  If one aspect is questioned, isn't it all to be suspect?  Wouldn't Biblical examination come under the heading of free will?  I would hope so.


There is an answer about procreating with Eve being the only woman. I answered that recently in some thread somewhere which I'll try to find to save me having to do it again. But aside from that, what you have brought up is a biblical difficulty with many because on one hand it says in the Bible that we are to believe all of it or none of it. Yet we have to have the gift of discernment to suss out when some scriptures are just parables, figures of speech, metaphors etc.

So I always pray before I start reading that the Holy Spirit will show me the truth while I read. That helps a lot. Also the Bible is meant to speak to some personally one way and to others another way because we are to have a personal relationship with God and Jesus. But the fundamental truths never change...like John 3:16. The fundamentals will remain clear and the same to all because God is not the author of confusion....yet He does want there to be some reasons to need to study it and discuss it in fellowship with other believers and in prayer.


----------



## drifter (Nov 18, 2019)

Are there Angels? I don't know but I hope there are, out and about, doing the Boss's business.


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 18, 2019)

I have read all these posts and respect each ones's right to believe as you want.  I however, believe in God and His son, Jesus Christ.  I start my day everyday by listening to Joel Osteen on TBN and then read a devotional.  I choose to do this and I believe there are huge blessings, protections, and favor from God because I read His Word, the Bible, and believe me, when I chose to make this a daily habit and other habits among this choice, I have seen miracles, blessings and much more in my life!  Really.  So, I like this forum for seniors and am sometimes amazed, enlightened and more.


----------



## rgp (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Interesting how this thread has morphed from belief in angels to the details of tax law! ( Good way to get me out of a conversation in a hurry.)
> 
> Anyway, to get back to the "angels" question, let me share an event that happened to me a while back. Due to a combination of medications for heart and blood pressure issues, one morning I woke up to see a kindly woman standing at the foot of my bed. She was not anyone I knew, but I knew she was kind and was watching over me. She was not dressed like an "angel," just wearing ordinary clothes, appeared somewhere in her 40's or so, and looked motherly, although she was not my mother either.
> 
> ...




"Interesting how this thread has morphed from belief in angels to the details of tax law! ( Good way to get me out of a conversation in a hurry.) "


 ...............that's because since angles do not exist, there is little to no point discussing them. But since churches dodge every tax they possibly can, and leave it to us to make up the difference.....there's a time worthy discussion.


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## norman (Nov 18, 2019)

PONDER THIS....Time on Earth had ended and all humanity has ceased to exist and all believer of  Christianity,  Catholicism,  Judaism,  Hinduism,  Islam,  Buddhism,  Confucianism , Atheists, etc. and they *each* stand at *a solid golden door with their chosen belief clearly marked* on each passage from life to death .. each opened their respective door and passed threw and they were all in the same place..Shangri-La...   Just sayin..


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## Pepper (Nov 18, 2019)

Sounds like something pondered 50 years ago, while drinking, smoking with college friends.  Far Out!


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## Marie5656 (Nov 18, 2019)

*While I am not certain about "Guardian Angels" I am one who believe that those who have moved on do try and reach out to us.  I mean people talk of seeing cardinals (the bird, not the Catholic hierarchy) and other things as visits from loved ones.  I dreamt once, a few months after my brother died, that he came to visit. Sat by my bed and told me he was "doing OK".  maybe my subconscious, wishful thinking, I do not know.
I have dreamt often of my husband.  But, again, probably subconscious.   For me, faith is believing in what gives us comfort.  Do we go "somewhere" after death?  Who knows. But is it wrong to believe that maybe we do? So long as we do not try to push this thought on someone who does not believe.*


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## Sunny (Nov 18, 2019)

Trade, about the Drop Kick Me, Jesus link,  !!!

Keesha, calm down. Nobody is saying that Lara doesn't have the right to post anything she pleases. I was not questioning her right to do so, I was questioning your statement that she is exhibiting free will. I don't believe she is.  And that is MY right!  It's based on reading umpteen posts declaring that Lara has some inside track as to what God wants, what Jesus wants, etc., just reciting the official party line of fundamentalist religion. And that is not free will. It's brain washing.

Marie, I just saw your post, so I'm adding this: I agree with you.  It's the pushing, not the believing, that I object to.


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## Knight (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Noah gathered two kangaroos, pandas and Galopagos tortoises?  Two of every insect on the planet?  Two of every dinosaur species...as is propounded by "The Ark Encounter?"



Hate to edit but when it comes to blind faith the story about Noah & animals goes a step beyond belief. The arc size to accommodate food, separation of species & births,  for the estimated 371 days afloat needs some explaining by bible scholars .

CLASSIFICATION.....NO. OF KNOWN SPECIES.....PROBABLE NO. ON ARK
Mammals................................3,700..................................<3,700
Birds.........................................8,600.................................<8,600
Reptiles....................................6,300.................................<6,300
Amphibians.............................2,500..................................<2,500
Fishes....................................20,600...........................................0
Tunicates.................................1,400...........................................0
Echinoderms...........................6,000...........................................0
Arthropods..........................838,500...........................................0
Mollusks..............................107,250...........................................0
Worms...................................34,700...........................................0
Coelenterates et al..................9,600...........................................0
Sponges...................................4,800...........................................0
Protozoans.............................28,350..........................................0
Total # of Species.............1,072,300.................................21,100

For fairness, in this hypothetical worst-case scenario of species on the Ark, we should add extinct species, bringing the (generous) rough approximation to 25,000 or so. Double this number to account for both genders and you arrive at only about 50,000 animals for the Ark’s passenger list.


----------



## Lc jones (Nov 18, 2019)

Knight said:


> Hate to edit but when it comes to blind faith the story about Noah & animals goes a step beyond belief. The arc size to accommodate food, separation of species & births,  for the estimated 371 days afloat needs some explaining by bible scholars .
> 
> CLASSIFICATION.....NO. OF KNOWN SPECIES.....PROBABLE NO. ON ARK
> Mammals................................3,700..................................<3,700
> ...


With God all things are possible!


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## Catlady (Nov 18, 2019)

Knight said:


> Hate to edit but when it comes to blind faith the story about Noah & animals goes a step beyond belief. The arc size to accommodate food, separation of species & births,  for the estimated 371 days afloat needs some explaining by bible scholars .



I asked once how did Noah manage to keep the carnivores from eating the other animals and they told me that God pacified them.  So, what did they eat, air?

One odd thing, though, they claim that very heavy planks of wood have been found at the top of Mt Ararat, where the bible claims his ark rested at the end of the flood.  Seems that global warming melted the snow that were covering them.  I need to google what is new with that story.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=wood+planks+on+mt+ararat


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Trade, about the Drop Kick Me, Jesus link,  !!!
> 
> Keesha, calm down. Nobody is saying that Lara doesn't have the right to post anything she pleases. I was not questioning her right to do so, I was questioning your statement that she is exhibiting free will. I don't believe she is.  And that is MY right!  It's based on reading umpteen posts declaring that Lara has some inside track as to what God wants, what Jesus wants, etc., just reciting the official party line of fundamentalist religion. And that is not free will. It's brain washing.
> 
> Marie, I just saw your post, so I'm adding this: I agree with you.  It's the pushing, not the believing, that I object to.


Sunny! What makes you think I wasn’t calm. I merely stated that every member has a right to speak their mind including Lara. Yes of course you have a right to disagree and I’m ok with that also.
Lara happens to be a friend so I was offering support. That’s it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 I don’t feel the least bit brain washed but if that’s how you feel then that’s how you feel. 
If you are that negatively affected there’s always the ‘report’ button.

Note to self. Never get in the middle of a religious debate for the sole reason of moral support.


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

And for the record, I’m NOT in this debate.
Im not interested in proving or disproving anything.
Period.


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## Olivia (Nov 18, 2019)

The sure fire way to have peace on earth is to discuss religion on an internet forum. It works every time. Don't let anyone tell you differently.


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## Catlady (Nov 18, 2019)

I found this below in the comments section of the ark story in the Daily Mail =
{{Nickolas, Ontario, Canada, 10 years ago

Fundamental belief systems are comfortable allowing anomolies. In this case, God could do anything He wanted, so a regional, 4km deep Great Flood could be possible, because it is what He wanted. To the commentators above: no matter what you might say about the physical, scientific impossibility of the existence of Noah's Ark, no matter how logical and measurable it might be, what you say will be by some rejected, with facility. Faith is absolute in the fundamentalist mind. It must be this way. There is no room for questioning a fundamental belief, for the very act of questioning is in itself a betrayal of Faith in God. When you believe, you believe completely and anything anyone says to you that impugns or otherwise diminishes that belief is just plain wrong.  If only people could just think things out a little more, we could get all this nonsense behind us and really start to evolve intellectually as a species.}}

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269165/Noahs-Ark-remains-discovered-mountain-Turkey.html


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

norman said:


> PONDER THIS....Time on Earth had ended and all humanity has ceased to exist and all believer of  Christianity,  Catholicism,  Judaism,  Hinduism,  Islam,  Buddhism,  Confucianism , Atheists, etc. and they *each* stand at *a solid golden door with their chosen belief clearly marked* on each passage from life to death .. each opened their respective door and passed threw and they were all in the same place..Shangri-La...   Just sayin..


...and they were all in the same place...Walmart.


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## jerry old (Nov 18, 2019)

The yammering makes my brain hurt. 
You believe because you have 'faith;' faith is the topic, not incidents of this and that.
If you have faith, you believe; if you don't, you have no benchmark to grasp
what is being said.
Your not going to convince anyone unless they have a 'spark' of faith.
We all wonder, search for an answer, those who have made up their mind.
one way or the other remain firm in their opinion.
Trying to prove an article of faith, ain't gonn'a happen.


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

I have faith 
I believe in God 
I just don’t believe it in the way the bible dictates but the bible is man made.


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## peppermint (Nov 18, 2019)

Victor said:


> It is totally impossible to know if angels exist--unless you are in heaven and meet one. St. Thomas Aquinas who some Catholics say is an authority, believed strongly in angels that are in heaven near Jesus and God---but they are not intended to travel to earth
> and be with humans. That's in the movies and television. No angels among us, as the song goes: do not depend on one to protect you.


Who Said!


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I have read all these posts and respect each ones's right to believe as you want.  I however, believe in God and His son, Jesus Christ.  I start my day everyday by listening to Joel Osteen on TBN and then read a devotional.  I choose to do this and I believe there are huge blessings, protections, and favor from God because I read His Word, the Bible, and believe me, when I chose to make this a daily habit and other habits among this choice, I have seen miracles, blessings and much more in my life!  Really.  So, I like this forum for seniors and am sometimes amazed, enlightened and more.


"Royalties from Joel Osteen's book sales, radio show, public speaking fees, and church collection reportedly generate $55 million per year. He and his wife, co-pastor Victoria Osteen, live with their two kids in a $10.5 million mansion in the Houston suburbs. Osteen's net worth is reported as $40 million."
ALL true servants of God deserve a $10.5 million mansion...and a $54 million private jet.

"Kiss the relics and loosen up your purse." - The Pardoner, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, circa 1380 A.D.

"Salvation:  The world's 2nd oldest profession...and no more reputable than the 1st." - Jan Stephen Hadley


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## Warrigal (Nov 18, 2019)

It sounds like Mr & Mrs Joel Osteen hardly qualify as angels. 
I'm not even sure they make it as small s saints.


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## Pepper (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> "Kiss the relics and loosen up your purse." - The Pardoner, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, circa 1380 A.D.


Anyone who quotes Chaucer is a swell person.


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## Warrigal (Nov 18, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Anyone who quotes Chaucer is a swell person.



  Doesn't always mean that the text has been read.
The internet helps me to appear more erudite than I really am.


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## norman (Nov 18, 2019)

deleted because I am tired  and sleepy.


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

My mother was an English literature teacher.  While you guys were playing sandlot baseball, I had to watch "The Tempest" on the Hallmark Hall of Fame, read the abridged version of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (I particularly liked The Pardoner's Tale)and was introduced at a young age to Ayn Rand via Atlas Shrugged.  The rest of my "formal education" has been self-taught.  "Education is your life long personal responsibility." - Mom...who red-penciled corrections on every note I ever wrote.


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Doesn't always mean that the text has been read.
> The internet helps me to appear more erudite than I really am.


Say what?


----------



## Sunny (Nov 18, 2019)

> I don’t feel the least bit brain washed but if that’s how you feel then that’s how you feel.


Keesha, I never said I felt brain washed. I said I thought Lara's reasoning sounds like SHE has been brain washed (as opposed to exhibiting free will). Just to clarify.


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## Keesha (Nov 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Keesha, I never said I felt brain washed. I said I thought Lara's reasoning sounds like SHE has been brain washed (as opposed to exhibiting free will). Just to clarify.


Ok! My mistake.


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## Warrigal (Nov 18, 2019)

Keesha said:


> Say what?



Erudite - educated, knowledgeable, learned, lettered, literate, scholarly, well-read. 

I have never read Chaucer but I just googled 'Chaucer quotes' and could take my pick of them.
I chose this one:



> “No empty handed man can lure a bird”
> ―       Geoffrey Chaucer,        The Canterbury Tales



Now I'm wondering about the context. Is he saying that poor men cannot attract women? 
Because I haven't read the text, I cannot know exactly what the quote means.

Sorry about taking the thread down a side alley.


----------



## jerry old (Nov 18, 2019)

PVC said:


> I found this below in the comments section of the ark story in the Daily Mail =
> {{Nickolas, Ontario, Canada, 10 years ago
> 
> Fundamental belief systems are comfortable allowing anomolies. In this case, God could do anything He wanted, so a regional, 4km deep Great Flood could be possible, because it is what He wanted. To the commentators above: no matter what you might say about the physical, scientific impossibility of the existence of Noah's Ark, no matter how logical and measurable it might be, what you say will be by some rejected, with facility. Faith is absolute in the fundamentalist mind. It must be this way. There is no room for questioning a fundamental belief, for the very act of questioning is in itself a betrayal of Faith in God. When you believe, you believe completely and anything anyone says to you that impugns or otherwise diminishes that belief is just plain wrong.  If only people could just think things out a little more, we could get all this nonsense behind us and really start to evolve intellectually as a species
> ...


----------



## win231 (Nov 18, 2019)

Well, I sure chuckled when I read about Adam & Eve.
Especially when Adam said, "Stay back, Eve.  I don't know how big this thing's gonna get."


----------



## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

Jerry:  You object to objectivism?  That's blasphemy!  What does it all mean?  What if there were no rhetorical questions?  Who is John Galt?


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 18, 2019)

Well, if anything, this thread has made me a true believer


in evolution

Angels to what's next, Aristotle?

I'll be outside

Got humans to see to


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## jerry old (Nov 18, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Jerry:  You object to objectivism?  That's blasphemy!  What does it all mean?  What if there were no rhetorical questions?  Who is John Galt?


Galt is a critter lodging in the mind of a peculiar person.
Saw Rand interview, was worse than I knew.
Objective carried to it's zenith degree is the same as any other philosophy or ideology-dangerous.
Rhetorical-you know the definition, folks like Rand do not, it is inconceivable
that she could err. She would state: they are unclean, non-thinking or worse.

God help us, well  Rand had no use for any belief system except hers.
So,  our yammering will not alter, change,  or modify the other's  belief system.


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## Nautilus (Nov 18, 2019)

It's Rand's basic premise regarding creativity and social non-conformity to which I subscribe but then I have always been a loner with authority issues.  As for her personally, I don't give a damn about her one way or the other.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara, exactly what passage , chapter and verse, in the Bible states "Salvation wasn't "only offered to the residents of the Middle East". It's offered worldwide but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days. ".


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Lara, exactly what passage , chapter and verse, in the Bible states "Salvation wasn't "only offered to the residents of the Middle East". It's offered worldwide but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days. "


My post #474 was quoting Nautilus's hypothetical question...not the Bible. Nautilus questioned, "Salvation was only offered to the Middle East?"

Then my answer was that back then they didn't have the capability of Worldwide communication. BUT...

There was a Prophesy in Matthew 24:14 that has been fulfilled today with Internet, Smartphones, TV, radio etc...so now Salvation IS offered worldwide. Here's the quote from the Bible:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world 
as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
_~ Matthew 24:14 (a fulfilled prophesy with the coming of technology)_

Those who have not heard the gospel, back then and today...are not held accountable. In other words they receive eternal life. And children under the age of reason are not held responsible.


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## Knight (Nov 19, 2019)

win231 said:


> Well, I sure chuckled when I read about Adam & Eve.
> Especially when Adam said, "Stay back, Eve.  I don't know how big this thing's gonna get."


Another chuckle

It begins
Genesis 3:8

Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 

Then gets really funny with

Genisis 3.9

Genesis 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

I'm trying to imagine a supernatural being that created heaven & earth. mankind, all the plants & animals needing to ask Where art thou?


----------



## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

Knight said:


> Genesis 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
> And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
> 
> I'm trying to imagine a supernatural being that created heaven & earth. mankind, all the plants & animals needing to ask Where art thou?


Because the Lord God wanted Adam & Eve to admit they they were hiding and to make them aware that it was because they disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and now knew of, and hid, their nakedness.


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## Knight (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> Because the Lord God wanted Adam & Eve to admit they they were hiding and to make them aware that it was because they disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge and now knew of, and hid, their nakedness.


your interpretation or is there a bible verse explaining that?


----------



## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

When I read your post I opened my Bible and
read the previous and subsequent verses to get the context.
That adds clarity. He wanted them to confess their sin.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara.perhaps you did not understand my question. You stated , ""Salvation wasn't "only offered to the residents of the Middle East". It's offered worldwide but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days. "  What exact passage of the Bible states that God did offer salvation, " but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days.".   Your answer does bring up another question.  You stated,'Those who have not heard the gospel, back then and today...are not held accountable. "  So, then, there are two ways of attaining salvation? One of them is being Biblically illiterate. Doesn't that call into question the validity of the other?


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> What exact passage of the Bible states that God did offer salvation, " but the problem back then was reaching the world. The problem was communication in those days.".





Lara said:


> And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world
> as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
> _~ Matthew 24:14 (a fulfilled prophesy with the coming of technology like TV, Internet, Radio)_





			
				fuzzybuddy said:
			
		

> You stated,'Those who have not heard the gospel, back then and today...are not held accountable." Doesn't that call into question the validity of the other?


No. Apples and Oranges...
people who have not heard the Gospel (the Good News of salvation if one believes) and people who have.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> "Royalties from Joel Osteen's book sales, radio show, public speaking fees, and church collection reportedly generate $55 million per year. He and his wife, co-pastor Victoria Osteen, live with their two kids in a $10.5 million mansion in the Houston suburbs. Osteen's net worth is reported as $40 million."
> ALL true servants of God deserve a $10.5 million mansion...and a $54 million private jet.
> 
> "Kiss the relics and loosen up your purse." - The Pardoner, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, circa 1380 A.D.
> ...


I have also, at one time or another, looked up their net worth and their income.  Granted, I think they should live more moderately and spend the other part on their profession. But, that is not my concern, and there really is no telling on what they spend it on.  You only know what you find in the reports on Google.  So, if you look up how much they spend in the 3rd world countries, etc.  Maybe that would balance out.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> No. Apples and Oranges...
> people who have not heard the Gospel (the Good News of salvation if one believes) and people who have.


Not a person created is left out!  There comes a time when everyone knows there is a supreme something/someone.  They may not know his name, or what he is, but He makes Himself known to all.


----------



## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

He's a mystery to me.  If God made me and I am unable to comprehend his existance then I figure it's His fault and I'm off the hook.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

rgp said:


> "Interesting how this thread has morphed from belief in angels to the details of tax law! ( Good way to get me out of a conversation in a hurry.) "
> 
> 
> ...............that's because since angles do not exist, there is little to no point discussing them. But since churches dodge every tax they possibly can, and leave it to us to make up the difference.....there's a time worthy discussion.


I am voicing my belief that indeed, this woman was an angel sent for to bring you comfort, she was a kindly looking motherly figure.  That, in itself, tells me that she was there to let you know you would be alright.  Sometimes there are angels about us and we are unaware.  But, it also appears to me that your first guess was she was an angel.


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## win231 (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> "Royalties from Joel Osteen's book sales, radio show, public speaking fees, and church collection reportedly generate $55 million per year. He and his wife, co-pastor Victoria Osteen, live with their two kids in a $10.5 million mansion in the Houston suburbs. Osteen's net worth is reported as $40 million."
> ALL true servants of God deserve a $10.5 million mansion...and a $54 million private jet.
> 
> "Kiss the relics and loosen up your purse." - The Pardoner, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, circa 1380 A.D.
> ...


And don't forget Victoria's miracle face creams & skin care products - they makes her look so young.....they work because they're blessed, not because of genetics.....   
I actually used to watch Joel because I found him entertaining & his previous sermons were not so religion based; they were more like talking about doing what's right (which I liked).  But then he received criticism & his sermons were modified to include more God & Jesus.  That's when I lost interest.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)




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## Capt Lightning (Nov 19, 2019)

"This sketch is getting very silly."   Monty Python (_a fulfilled prophesy with the coming of technology like TV, Internet, Senior Forums)_


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

You may not use my posts in whole nor in part without quotation marks and you should have enough integrity not to add mockery. It doesn't even make sense.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> You may not use my posts in whole nor in part without quotation marks and you should have enough integrity not to add mockery. It doesn't even make sense.


Who are you referring to Lara?


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm referring to Post #524....He took my words in part of my previous post #517, "_a fulfilled prophesy with the coming of technology like TV, Internet" _and added his own to it for laughs but it doesn't make sense anyway.


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 19, 2019)

Sorry, I didn't realise that they were for your exclusive use.  I shall modify it appropriately...

"This sketch is getting very silly." Monty Python as seen on "_technology like TV and Internet,"_

Do you ever watch Monty Python.  When a sketch continued with no obvious end, someone would comment that "This sketch is getting very silly".

There are times when posts on this forum do seem rather "Pythonesque"


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## charry (Nov 19, 2019)

Are there Angels ? 

yep, there is  one ,sitting right opposite me now....


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## Knight (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> When I read your post I opened my Bible and
> read the previous and subsequent verses to get the context.
> That adds clarity. He wanted them to confess their sin.


Would have been nice if you would have posted the previous and subsequent verses.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

Ok. I’m guilty of adding my own humour to otherwise humourless threads.
It seems like it needed some comic relief and I’m even guilty of laughing too.


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> He's a mystery to me.  If God made me and I am unable to comprehend his existance then I figure it's His fault and I'm off the hook.


No, you are not off the hook--for what?  Understanding Him?  Well, there are ways to get to know God.  The Bible is a wonderful way, if you don't like reading the whole thing, just read Genisis and Exodus.  Read books by authors that know Him.  There is a whole host of them out there.  I am saying this because when you want to know how to do something, you might buy a book that would tell you how, or a couple and then take your choice.  Check out Lee Strobbel.  A Case for Christ.  He puts it a way you would understand. He was an athiest.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Everyone seems to be skirting the real question here:  Is there sex after death?  Assuming I make it to heaven, will all hot chicks be available on a "look but don't touch" basis?  That would be hell, not heaven, making the Good News fake news.


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

win231 said:


> And don't forget Victoria's miracle face creams & skin care products - they makes her look so young.....they work because they're blessed, not because of genetics.....
> I actually used to watch Joel because I found him entertaining & his previous sermons were not so religion based; they were more like talking about doing what's right (which I liked).  But then he received criticism & his sermons were modified to include more God & Jesus.  That's when I lost interest.


I like Joel and listening to his encouraging words with a "little something funny" to start off with, very interesting.  I love getting all the encouragement I can at the very beginning of my day.  I also like John Hagee, Charles Stanley and Joyce Meyers and Robert Morris.


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## fancicoffee13 (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Everyone seems to be skirting the real question here:  Is there sex after death?  Assuming I make it to heaven, will all hot chicks be available on a "look but don't touch" basis?  That would be hell, not heaven, making the Good News fake news.


I'll answer you, No.  No sex after death.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

I don’t think so Nautilus. Not according to the bible. Unless people are conceiving children sex is deemed sinful.
Silly!


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I'll answer you, No.  No sex after death.


How do you know? Have you died before?


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I'll answer you, No.  No sex after death.


No sex after death; no sex for all eternity?  That's heaven?  That's hell.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

No wonder people are living longer.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I don’t think so Nautilus. Not according to the bible. Unless people are conceiving children sex is deemed sinful.
> Silly!


Conception?  Well I'd certainly be willing to do my half in order to stay within Biblical edicts.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> Conception?  Well I'd certainly be willing to do my half in order to stay within Biblical edicts.


They want their subjects to have more children so that there will be more donations for them in the future.   With 7.7 billions in the world already, we really need a reversal of the number of ''conceptions''.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> They want their subjects to have more children so that there will be more donations for them in the future.   With 7.7 billions in the world already, we really need a reversal of the number of ''conceptions''.


I meant in Heaven where, apparently, sex will be forbidden unless conception is the object.


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

Matthew 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Marriage is a relationship to be enjoyed in this life, but it will not carry forward into the next life", according to Jesus. Angels are sexless.

We do not lose our identity in heaven it says in Luke 16:23. But our relationships on earth are different than we'll have beyond. Since there is no marriage in heaven, that probably means there will be no procreation in heaven. Also there will be no death, so there's no reason to procreate the race. The appetites and desires of this world will give way to higher and infinitely more gratifying delights in the world to come.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> I meant in Heaven where, apparently, sex will be forbidden unless conception is the object.


 I wasn’t talking about heaven. I’m talking about the biblical rules concerning sex here on earth according to the bible. We aren’t supposed to enjoy it. It’s meant for child bearing only.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I wasn’t talking about heaven. I’m talking about the biblical rules concerning sex here on earth according to the bible. We aren’t supposed to enjoy it. It’s meant for child bearing only.


I hate it...OFTEN!


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> I hate it...OFTEN!


That’s the ticket.
You’re a good man Nautilus. lol


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## Trade (Nov 19, 2019)

Knight said:


> I'm trying to imagine a supernatural being that created heaven & earth. mankind, all the plants & animals needing to ask Where art thou?



Shouldn't that be *wherefore* are thou?


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## Trade (Nov 19, 2019)

Keesha said:


> I wasn’t talking about heaven. I’m talking about the biblical rules concerning sex here on earth according to the bible. We aren’t supposed to enjoy it. It’s meant for child bearing only.



https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/508980-life-in-lubbock-texas-taught-me-two-things-one-is
_“Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth, and you should save it for someone you love.”_
_
― Butch Hancock _


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> Matthew 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Marriage is a relationship to be enjoyed in this life, but it will not carry forward into the next life", according to Jesus. Angels are sexless.
> 
> We do not lose our identity in heaven it says in Luke 16:23. But our relationships on earth are different than we'll have beyond. Since there is no marriage in heaven, that probably means there will be no procreation in heaven. Also there will be no death, so there's no reason to procreate the race. The appetites and desires of this world will give way to higher and infinitely more gratifying delights in the world to come.


You have been indoctrinated since childhood.  You obey the Bible and regard it as the ONLY source anyone needs.  You eschew all questions that intelligence, logic and common sense would generate and you are blind to the hypocrisy of televangelists.  Fortunately,  your family members were not also flat earthers.  A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste.


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

Knight said:


> Would have been nice if you would have posted the previous and subsequent verses.


I'm sorry, Knight. Since you were the one that posted the scripture reference of Genesis 3:9 in your post #513, I thought you knew where it was. If you don't have a Bible ou must be familiar with google. Just google "Genesis 3" and it will post the whole chapter which isn't very long. Any time you want a scripture verse just google what you want and add the word scripture. Quick and easy. Try googling Genesis 3:6-12.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

"How do I know there's a God?  Because I've seen the devil plenty of times!" - Elmer Gantry


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

We should probably abandon this thread.  Can I get an Amen?


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## Lara (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:
			
		

> You have been indoctrinated since childhood. You obey the Bible and regard it as the ONLY source anyone needs. You eschew all questions that intelligence, logic and common sense would generate and you are blind to the hypocrisy of televangelists. Fortunately, your family members were not also flat earthers. A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste.


Nautilus, you sure think you know a lot about me and my family and you just joined the forum 4 days ago. And what's that about me and televangelists? I don't watch them but I know about their hypocrisy.

But there is one pastor named Dr. Charles Stanley on TV, In Touch Ministries, who is very very different. He has preached at the same church for 50 years and said from day one that he would never ask for money. He hasn't sent around a collection plate even to this day. He's 89 now. He has made his money by hosting trips and cruises such as to Alaska and has sold some of his books and personal photography of flowers, birds, and landscapes...but never talks about any of that during the 1/2 hour sermon.

And you said my family are not flat earthers??? How random! I've never said that nor discussed flat earthers. Are you trying to investigate me and my family? You're sound creepy.

@PVC , I'm shocked that you gave this member a like on his post. Why in the world.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> We should probably abandon this thread.  Can I get an Amen?


Amen!

It's interesting that the OP @Vedaarya started this thread on 2/1/17 and stopped posting on 7/9/17.  Her post has had a life of it's own since she left.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Thank you, Jesus!


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## rgp (Nov 19, 2019)

Always it seems easy to get folks to debate/argue religion.......I break my own rule all the time, never argue religion       cuz I doubt seriously any ones mind will ever change anyway.....and does it really need too ?

I have my own thought on the subject,[which I won't go into again] but I try too keep in mind that at any minute I could be proven wrong........hence my mind would be changed.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> @PVC , I'm shocked that you gave this member a like on his post. Why in the world.


I gave Nautilus a like because he said:
"You obey the Bible and regard it as the ONLY source anyone needs.  *You eschew all questions that intelligence, logic and common sense *would generate and you are blind to the hypocrisy of televangelists".

I feel that you follow the bible blindly, claiming it is the ''word of God'' even though it was the ''word of men''.  The Essenes,* a radical sect of Jews*, wrote the first five chapters of the bible (but they were attributed to Moses) and the rest were written by others and the apostles after Jesus. And even those apostles could not make up their mind about what Jesus said or did, they each had their own versions about his life and teachings. I was also shocked to find out recently that Jesus only taught less than a year or less than 3 years (depending on the sources). In fact, even his birth and death dates are in dispute. Few people knew of him at the time.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

rgp said:


> Always it seems easy to get folks to debate/argue religion.......I break my own rule all the time, never argue religion     cuz I doubt seriously any ones mind will ever change anyway.....and does it really need too ? I have my own thought on the subject,[which I won't go into again] but I try too *keep in mind that at any minute I could be proven wrong*........hence my mind would be changed.


I consider myself to have a very OPEN mind.  If/when anyone can prove something, I will be the first to admit that I was wrong.  I would LOVE for there to be a heaven and a God (the merciful one, not the cruel one).  I simply believe that religion was invented to explain that which we are not able to explain.


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> You have been indoctrinated since childhood.  You obey the Bible and regard it as the ONLY source anyone needs.  You eschew all questions that intelligence, logic and common sense would generate and you are blind to the hypocrisy of televangelists.  Fortunately,  your family members were not also flat earthers.  A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste.


This post is totally unnecessary.  Makes you sound like a bully.  Like a bully with a closed mind.  You're not, so why behave like you are?


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> We should probably abandon this thread.  Can I get an Amen?


You can abandon it by leaving it.


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> The Essenes,* a radical sect of Jews*, wrote the first five chapters of the bible


I wish you goyim would stop blabbing about what you don't know but have read in a speculative book and you liked it.


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## rgp (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> I consider myself to have a very OPEN mind.  If/when anyone can prove something, I will be the first to admit that I was wrong.  I would LOVE for there to be a heaven and a God (the merciful one, not the cruel one).  I simply believe that religion was invented to explain that which we are not able to explain.




   Agree completely !


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## Knight (Nov 19, 2019)

Lara said:


> I'm sorry, Knight. Since you were the one that posted the scripture reference of Genesis 3:9 in your post #513, I thought you knew where it was. If you don't have a Bible ou must be familiar with google. Just google "Genesis 3" and it will post the whole chapter which isn't very long. Any time you want a scripture verse just google what you want and add the word scripture. Quick and easy. Try googling Genesis 3:6-12.


Don't have a bible so did as you suggested Googled.

3 but God said, You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

SAY WHAT?  they didn't die.

Then

 11 He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” 12 The man said, d“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, e“The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

The all knowing supernatural being still asking questions. And for you that translates into God knew and was testing? I take it as written the all knowing didn't know. 

The serpent said 
4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 

No mystery there. They didn't die so the serpent was right & God lied. 

16 To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be contrary to your husband,  <----- and so woman gets to enjoy multiple orgasms

but he shall rule over you.” <---- That one went off the rails long ago.

All in all a nice story but so are the Harry Potter stories.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I wish you goyim would stop blabbing about what you don't know but have read in a speculative book and you liked it.


Like you always ask of me, ''link'?  Where does it say that it's not true that the Essenes wrote the first five chapters?


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> Like you always ask of me, ''link'?  Where does it say that it's not true that the Essenes wrote the first five chapters?


How ridiculous.  You are the one who made the original claim.  It is up to you to provide that it is true.


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

Ps--
"Like you *always* ask of me, ''link'?" 
I asked you ONE time!


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## CrackerJack (Nov 19, 2019)

I very good Thread indeed. I am not sure about angels but don't discount their existence.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Pepper said:


> You can abandon it by leaving it.


As can you.


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## Catlady (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> Like you always ask of me, ''link'?  Where does it say that it's not true that the Essenes wrote the first five chapters?


*I've got a headache, Pepper*.  There is so much controversy in religion that *no one agrees with anything, not even the experts*.  Here's some info I found.  The Essenes supposedly wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls.  I'm done with this and *am out of this thread*.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_authorshipBy the 1st century CE it was already common practice to refer to the five books as the "Law of Moses", but the first unequivocal expression of the idea that this meant authorship appears in the Babylonian Talmud, an encyclopedia of Jewish tradition and scholarship composed between 200–500 CE.[6][7] There the rabbis noticed and addressed such issues as how Moses had received the divine revelation,[8] how it was curated and transmitted to later generations, and how difficult passages such as the last verses of Deuteronomy, which describe his death, were to be explained.[9] This culminated in the 8th of Maimonides' 13 Principles of Faith, establishing belief in Mosaic authorship as an article of Jewish belief.[10]
Mosaic authorship of the Torah was unquestioned by both Jews and Christians until the European Enlightenment, when the systematic study of the five books led the *majority of scholars to conclude that they are the product of many hands and many centuries*.[11] Despite this, the role of Moses is an article of faith in traditional Jewish circles and for some Christian Evangelical scholars, for whom it remains crucial to their understanding of the unity and authority of Scripture.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/7/100727-who-wrote-dead-sea-scrolls-bible-science-tv/*The conventional wisdom is that a breakaway Jewish sect called the Essenes—thought to have occupied Qumran during the first centuries B.C. and A.D.—wrote all the parchment and papyrus scrolls.*
According to an emerging theory, the Essenes may have actually been Jerusalem Temple priests who went into self-imposed exile in the second century B.C., after kings unlawfully assumed the role of high priest.
This group of rebel priests may have escaped to Qumran to worship God in their own way. While there, *they may have written some of the texts that would come to be known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.*


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

Nautilus said:


> As can you.


As can anyone!


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

PVC said:


> *I've got a headache, Pepper*.  There is so much controversy in religion that *no one agrees with anything, not even the experts*..........I'm done with this and *am out of this thread*.


Aw, then how are you going to see my answer?  Which is, basically, it's all theoretical and can only be stated as such, without the definite certainty you projected at first.


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## jerry old (Nov 19, 2019)

I am not going to be involved in this discussion.  
I am not going to be involved in this discussion, no I am not.
I am not.....


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## Pepper (Nov 19, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> I am not going to be involved in this discussion.
> I am not going to be involved in this discussion, no I am not.
> I am not.....


What's the big deal?  Just yakking & sharing, that's all.


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## win231 (Nov 19, 2019)

Teehee.  Happens every time.  Talk of religion, God, Jesus (and who killed him), angels, etc.  Sooner or later the believers will be angry.
Why?
Because they, themselves have doubts & they don't like non believers reinforcing those doubts.


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## Nautilus (Nov 19, 2019)

Pepper bitch-slapped me so hard that I am now in therapy and no longer mentally able to contribute to this discussion.


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## Keesha (Nov 19, 2019)

Isn’t that why the saying goes ‘never talk about politics or religion.’ They are two topics that people can be exceptionally passionate about and two I know next to nothing about.

Oddly enough , it seems that the people who claim to know the most about religion , get the most frustrated when questioned and when they aren’t believed do get angry but I don’t think it’s because they have doubts. In fact, these people have such faith and belief that there are zero doubts even if you present documented evidence that evolution existed, that contradicts the bible. Some people have been raised religious so it’s become part of their lifestyle. They read and learn scriptures in their churches which they faithfully use in their daily lives and it becomes sacred to them to the point that they defend their right to believe.


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