# If we have terrible suffering, should we exit life or stay alive to the last breath?



## Mitch86 (Feb 4, 2022)

I believe now that no matter how much pain and suffering one has, he should stay alive to the last breath.  Life exists only once and, when we die, we totally cease to exist.  Thus, we should tolerate unlimited pain and suffering with full knowledge that there are times in everyone's life where we actually enjoy our life no matter how we suffered for most days.  Even if we are in a coma, we can still enjoy our thoughts.

Finally, pain is really a matter of the mind's perception.  If I have terrible pain, I play Civilization VI on my PC and get totally absorbed and all the pain goes  away.

Distraction is the best cure for pain and it cannot kill you.


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## C50 (Feb 5, 2022)

I disagree.  I think when we want out of life it's time to go.  My biggest concern is not being given the opportunity to exit on my terms and being forced to endure when I don't want to,  I've seen that scenario to often.


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## rgp (Feb 5, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> I believe now that no matter how much pain and suffering one has, he should stay alive to the last breath.  Life exists only once and, when we die, we totally cease to exist.  Thus, we should tolerate unlimited pain and suffering with full knowledge that there are times in everyone's life where we actually enjoy our life no matter how we suffered for most days.  Even if we are in a coma, we can still enjoy our thoughts.
> 
> Finally, pain is really a matter of the mind's perception.  If I have terrible pain, I play Civilization VI on my PC and get totally absorbed and all the pain goes  away.
> 
> Distraction is the best cure for pain and it cannot kill you.




  Sorry Mitch but , ... if you can ignore pain ? and make it go away / mask it ? It is not severe pain. If that were the case IMO ... then I should be able to absorb myself in a project , and feel no pain.
That doesn't work !

I also believe that if we want/choose to exit life , we should have a say as to when & how ....... so long as we harm no others in the process.


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## RFW (Feb 5, 2022)

If I had a terminal illness and someone wanted me to keep on living, I would.
On a side note, have you tried Humankind? It's like CIV VI but new.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 5, 2022)

I don't think many people _can_ tolerate unlimited pain and suffering. I know I couldn't.

I'll hang in here for as long as I can, but if I ever have intolerable, unlimited pain, I'll check-out.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 5, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> ... pain is really a matter of the mind's perception.  If I have terrible pain, I play Civilization VI on my PC and get totally absorbed and all the pain goes  away.


That's awesome, Mitch!


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## OneEyedDiva (Feb 5, 2022)

Muslims believe suicide is a big sin. I feel so bad for those who have great pain and suffering. In the wake of a society where physician assisted suicide (considered different from euthanasia) is legal in 10 U.S. states and elsewhere I still have to agree with you Mitch. BTW Mitch...I keep you in prayer...that your chronic pain will be eased.


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## Pepper (Feb 5, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> Finally, pain is really a matter of the mind's perception.  If I have *terrible pain*, I play Civilization VI on my PC and get totally absorbed and all the pain goes  away.
> 
> Distraction is the best cure for pain and it cannot kill you.


I don't believe for one second your pain is TERRIBLE if you can distract yourself so easily.  Of course, my perception of terrible pain is probably much different than yours.  You know how the docs ask which pain are you?  Number 1 to 10?

For me, 10 is hard labor or waking up after a third of my lung was cut out.  Pain where you can do nothing else but be in pain.  No distractions.


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## Lavinia (Feb 5, 2022)

If you are suffering and you know that there is no chance of a cure....why prolong it needlessly?


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 5, 2022)

I believe that we all have the choice to leave this world when we feel that we are ready.

IMO the thing missing is a legal and humane method to do that.


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## hollydolly (Feb 5, 2022)

Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that we all have the choice to leave this world when we feel that we are ready.
> 
> IMO the thing missing is a legal and humane method to do that.


well of course there's always dignitas in Switzerland ..and assisted suicides in some places..Spain, Belgium, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Switzerland and some states of the USA. It's not ideal, it comes with certain stipulations, and cost.. but at least it's there for those who satisfy the criteria.

For me , if they don't allow assisted suicide in the Uk, and  if I'm suffering terminal pain and I'm unable to travel to another country to be euthanized  , I will find my own very fast  method...

I will never suffer unbearable pain where there's no hope of relief or cure.. if I have it in my power to put an end to it  myself.


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## Trish (Feb 5, 2022)

Whatever works for you Mitch  although I do not entirely agree.  If I am honest, I do not know what decision I would make if I were in intolerable pain or suffering from an illness which rendered my life unbearable but, I believe I would likely make the decision to leave. Whatever choice we make though, it should be our right to have that choice and either way, there is no right or wrong.


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## charry (Feb 5, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> well of course there's always dignitas in Switzerland ..and assisted suicides in some places..Spain, Belgium, Canada, Australia, Netherlands, Switzerland and some states of the USA. It's not ideal, it comes with certain stipulations, and cost.. but at least it's there for those who satisfy the criteria.
> 
> For me , if they don't allow assisted suicide in the Uk, and  if I'm suffering terminal pain and I'm unable to travel to another country to be euthanized  , I will find my own very fast  method...
> 
> I will never suffer unbearable pain where there's no hope of relief or cure.. if I have it in my power to put an end to it  myself.


But that cost thousands holly !,


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## Ronni (Feb 5, 2022)

Your question is disingenuous because there isn’t a black/white, yes/no, Boolean logic answer to it. It’s a nuanced and complex subject and there is simply no one size fits all or correct answer to your question.

End of life decisions depend on a dizzying array of factors extending far beyond the person themselves and their level of pain. Even if someone in great pain wants to end their life for example, but can’t do it alone, and they live in a state where that is illegal, it requires the involvement of family or friends who are then culpable and can potentially be prosecuted for their involvement.

Loved ones may be grasping at every last bit of time with the terminal family member who chooses to continue on in pain for their sake.

I’ve heard of family who have challenged the authenticity or veracity of a DNR order put in place by their aged loved one, for personal gain because they wanted the will changed before the family member passed on. So many scenarios. 

My personal opinion is that I should have a right to choose when I’m done. I should be able to say when the pain is too much or my quality of life has dwindled to the point that I don’t want to live it any more. I should be assisted respectfully and with compassion, and without a bunch of complications and issues, to end my life if I so choose.

Perhaps by the time I’m at that point myself if I don’t die in my sleep like I want to, I’ll have that choice. Guess we’ll see.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 5, 2022)

Stay till the last breath because, there's an end to everything.  Really.  Some things just take longer, and some are harder and more painful, but stick it out cause you have in you what it takes to go through it.  And when it is all over, you will be more thankful for the good times.


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## Tom 86 (Feb 5, 2022)

While in the hospital I was watching one of their health channels.   I saw a  young woman that never gave up hope that her husband would recover.  He was on a breathing machine for 5 years. They kept after her to unplug the unit.  

  Finally, 5 years later he woke up & said to her "I love you" He is recovering & learning how to walk again.

  God had a plan for him.


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## Snow74 (Feb 5, 2022)

In 2011. January 22 to be exact,I was sitting in my lazy boy chatting with my daughter…without any warning or pain,I had turned blue…Complete Cardiac Arrest…put in induced coma…implanted defibrillator….had my daughter not been there,I would have missed so many years…so many friendships found..the only thing I fret about is the defibrillator zapping life into me when my heart does not respond to the brain’s command..(my problem was electrical,) I have read where a person who was shot,the defibrillator kept zapping and zapping…I have no choice in removing it..anyway…I will leave this earth when God sees fit..because my energy will come back…


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 5, 2022)

Whether there is severe pain or not, I think we all have the right to end our lives when we feel it's time.  I'm completely for dying with dignity or assisted suicide if that is readily available to the person.  Having said that, this is a very personal decision that each of us have to make for ourselves, @Mitch86  I have no doubt you are in bad pain, I respect your decision and wish you well.


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## feywon (Feb 5, 2022)

Tom 86 said:


> While in the hospital I was watching one of their health channels.   I saw a  young woman that never gave up hope that her husband would recover.  He was on a breathing machine for 5 years. They kept after her to unplug the unit.
> 
> Finally, 5 years later he woke up & said to her "I love you" He is recovering & learning how to walk again.
> 
> God had a plan for him.


But that is not the most common outcome of such scenarios. If it were it wouldn't be a news story when it happens. 
I have talked to my children about what i consider an acceptable quality of life.  Being hooked up to machines and not mentally present enough to physically converse with them is not acceptable to me. Because of our relationships i trust them to know if my consciousness is just on walkabout giving my body time to heal or if i'm ready to transition. But that is something for each person to determine and work out with their family.


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## feywon (Feb 5, 2022)

It is up to the individual. @Ronni Touched on a lot of my thoughts about it. 

I respect each person's right to make their choice, but don't feel we are entitled to dictate to others.  

I could write volumes about the subjectivity of not just physical pain but the emotional suffering that can result from it. i know for me from experience that physical pain  is actually more easily managed with distraction and/or meditative techniques than emotional pain.

I could also relate stories of people i knew who hung on beyond any reasonable quality of life, those who decided on palliative care only and people like my Dad who wanted to end his suffering with a gun. When i told him i couldn't  do that, but i believed it was between him and whatever he conceives God to be, that he could choose to let go of this life. He was totally bedridden in a week, and a week later after some goodbyes with family/friends via long distance phone calls he died peacefully in my arms at home.

But this indeed a complex matter with factors that always come back to being questions of personal beliefs, standards and choices. The main thing i object to is those who want to pass judgement on those who see it differently than they do.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 5, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> If we have terrible suffering, should we exit life or stay alive to the last breath?


Good question.

Right now, being well and healthy, I believe I would prefer to die rather than suffer like that.  And am even thinking about how I can make that happen.

However, it is hard to know what I will think when the time comes, people change their minds all the time.

I certainly believe we ought to have the right to make that decision, no matter what it is.


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## Jules (Feb 5, 2022)

Ronni said:


> My personal opinion is that I should have a right to choose when I’m done. I should be able to say when the pain is too much or my quality of life has dwindled to the point that I don’t want to live it any more. I should be assisted respectfully and with compassion, and without a bunch of complications and issues, to end my life if I so choose


This is my hope too.  


feywon said:


> But this indeed a complex matter with factors that always come back to being questions of personal beliefs, standards and choices. The main thing i object to is those who want to pass judgement on those who see it differently than they do.


Agreed.  Worse are those who interfere with plans of the person who has requested to leave.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 5, 2022)

Tom 86 said:


> While in the hospital I was watching one of their health channels.   I saw a  young woman that never gave up hope that her husband would recover.  He was on a breathing machine for 5 years. They kept after her to unplug the unit.
> 
> Finally, 5 years later he woke up & said to her "I love you" He is recovering & learning how to walk again.
> 
> God had a plan for him.


Exactly, the end of whatever it is will come when it is supposed to.  But, on the other hand, hope can be hard to keep sometimes and prayers sometimes don't seem to be answered.  Not our way thought.  The outcome will be better if we leave it up to God.


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## Mitch86 (Feb 5, 2022)

It should be noted that every state in the USA allows any individual to create a Living Will and Advanced Directive whereby one can refuse all medication including nutrition and hydration.  Of course, relatives could block that but one must discuss it all with relatives and get their consent before it becomes necessary.  An attorney is required to draw up those documents and requirements may differ in each state.  It takes just two weeks to die using that legal method.

For me I will try and hold out even in a coma.  By the way, my severe pain in legs and feet was caused by arthritis of the spine combined with one doctor inflicting pain on my feet since he was going through a bitter divorce and the second doctor hitting my feet with his fists since I had squealed to the police and the Dept. of Public Health.

By the way, no penalties were imposed on the doctors since in my State of CT, it is policy never to prosecute doctors as long as their maimings and murders are confined to a hospital or their office.

However, I look back to Christ, the MAN, who took more pain than anyone on His Cross and never complained but accepted his fate.  I frequently go back to this Serenity prayer: "God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."

Finally, posting here also alleviates my pain.


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## RFW (Feb 5, 2022)

I must say, Mitch, that is pretty heavy stuff and I'm sorry you had to go through that.


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## bingo (Feb 5, 2022)

i like your courage and where it comes from


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## Giantsfan1954 (Feb 5, 2022)

Morphine is generally put to good use when this time arrives.
My husband had lung cancer with brain metastasis before it was discovered.
He survived 3 weeks from diagnosis and the last week was bad, not so much pain as combativeness.
I signed the DNR as well as the permission to switch from morphine injections to the IV drip, having worked in healthcare I knew it hastens the inevitable.


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## Chet (Feb 5, 2022)

By now we should have seen what condition others had been in before the end came. Those of my parent's were not nice to observe therefore I would like to avoid that for myself in some way but the question is how and when.


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## Nathan (Feb 5, 2022)

The flippin' Big Pharma companies could make trillions of $$ if they could develop....are-you-ready.....a PAIN medication that works!

Yes, a PAIN medication that works...what a concept!!!   A PAIN medication that works, that doesn't *kill* you are make you hopelessly *addicted*.


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## win231 (Feb 5, 2022)

Nathan said:


> The flippin' Big Pharma companies could make trillions of $$ if they could develop....are-you-ready.....a PAIN medication that works!
> 
> Yes, a PAIN medication that works...what a concept!!!   A PAIN medication that works, that doesn't *kill* you are make you hopelessly *addicted*.


I thought Opioids did that?


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## win231 (Feb 5, 2022)

Everyone who hasn't been there finds it easy to say, "I would never end my life or want to end my life."
The reason they can say that is because they haven't been there; they only _think _they've been there.  They can only go by the worst pain & the longest duration of pain they've suffered _so far._
The word _"Severe_" covers a wide range of severity.  And everyone has different pain tolerance levels.


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## Ladybj (Feb 5, 2022)

C50 said:


> I disagree.  I think when we want out of life it's time to go.  My biggest concern is not being given the opportunity to exit on my terms and being forced to endure when I don't want to,  I've seen that scenario to often.


I agree  I want to go on my terms. I do not want to suffer til the end... I want to go out gracefully on my terms.


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## Nathan (Feb 5, 2022)

win231 said:


> I thought Opioids did that?


Opioids are the only effective pain reliever, but can't be used without the risk of addiction and/or death.


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## dseag2 (Feb 5, 2022)

rgp said:


> Sorry Mitch but , ... if you can ignore pain ? and make it go away / mask it ? It is not severe pain. If that were the case IMO ... then I should be able to absorb myself in a project , and feel no pain.
> That doesn't work !
> 
> I also believe that if we want/choose to exit life , we should have a say as to when & how ....... so long as we harm no others in the process.


I saw my mother go through tremendous pain and suffering for the last 28 days of her life, and I completely agree.  She passed away of congestive heart failure on November 9, so it is still quite fresh in my mind.  With all the medication they gave her in hospice she was still unable to sleep at night and was still very uncomfortable during the day.  She also hallucinated due to her body shutting down, even though she did not have dementia.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone else.  Yes, we should have a say as to when and how.


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## dseag2 (Feb 5, 2022)

charry said:


> But that cost thousands holly !,


If I have money left at that point in my life it won't matter how much I pay.  My partner will still get the house.


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## charry (Feb 6, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> If I have money left at that point in my life it won't matter how much I pay.  My partner will still get the house.


Yes but if you havnt got that much money left ? What happens then ? 
live a life of inhumanity


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## C50 (Feb 6, 2022)

I actually have a fear of a traumatic health event sending me to the hospital and then straight to a nursing home, at that point my freedom of choice is gone.  I have told both my kids if that ever happens sign me out for a picnic and take me to a national forest and let me wander away.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 6, 2022)

win231 said:


> Everyone who hasn't been there finds it easy to say, "I would never end my life or want to end my life."


I am sure that is true, and maybe the other way round for some.  It is hard to know what we will really be thinking until the time comes...


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## Snow74 (Feb 6, 2022)

I realize that there is quite a difference between an animal and a human, yet it is considered inhumane to let an animal suffer ( I have never let any of my pets suffer once the Vet said they were beyond saving) so why would I watch a loved one suffer knowing their end is unpreventable and they would want their pain to end? Why are some humans left to vegetate for years? Can we not have a say as to when enough is enough?
PS ….I myself would make such a fuss nurses and Docs would be only too happy to send me to the promised land..


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## Alligatorob (Feb 6, 2022)

Snow74 said:


> I realize that there is quite a difference between an animal and a human, yet it is considered inhumane to let an animal suffer ( I have never let any of my pets suffer once the Vet said they were beyond saving) so why would I watch a loved one suffer knowing their end is unpreventable and they would want their pain to end? Why are some humans left to vegetate for years? Can we not have a say as to when enough is enough?


You make a really good point.  I know I let a few pets linger too long, now I don't.  In some ways this could be applied to humans, except that we can ask people, or some anyway, what they want.


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## Snow74 (Feb 6, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> You make a really good point.  I know I let a few pets linger too long, now I don't.  In some ways this could be applied to humans, except that we can ask people, or some anyway, what they want.


Yes…but..the question is who will comply to your wishes?


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 6, 2022)

A very personnel choice. No right or wrong here. I hope to be aware on my way out, but time alone will tell. Mike


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## Alligatorob (Feb 6, 2022)

Snow74 said:


> the question is who will comply to your wishes?


In the US,  unless we change the law, probably nobody...


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## Murrmurr (Feb 6, 2022)

Nathan said:


> The flippin' Big Pharma companies could make trillions of $$ if they could develop....are-you-ready.....a PAIN medication that works!
> 
> Yes, a PAIN medication that works...what a concept!!!   A PAIN medication that works, that doesn't *kill* you are make you hopelessly *addicted*.





win231 said:


> I thought Opioids did that?


Effectiveness depends on the severity of the pain. I've had pain in the past that the hydrocodone I take now wouldn't touch. There's a difference between an opiate such as morphine and an opioid such as Vicodin/hydrocodone. Morphine is an actual pain-killer. It got me through the first several months after I broke my back. Initially the dose was so high, I was in la-la land most of the time, so opver those several months the dosage was very gradually decreased, and then I was put on hydrocodone. Without the morphine I wouldn't have been able to tolerate the therapies or even walking to the bathroom or sitting up in my hospital bed, but if I'd stayed on morphine I'd probably be a drooling, demented couch potato now.

Opioids like hydrocodone only reduce pain to a tolerable level, they don't really ever stop it, and they have no effective on truly severe pain. I was told opioids are just as addictive as opiates, but that wasn't my experience. It was a challenge when my morphine was reduced, but I have no trouble whatsoever cutting back on the hydrocodone whenever I want. On days when my pain isn't so bad, I take less and it's no problem. 

I think opiates work great for pain but are more addictive and opioids are more damaging to your organs while just being "ok" at managing (but not eliminating) pain.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 6, 2022)

Snow74 said:


> Yes…but..the question is who will comply to your wishes?





Alligatorob said:


> In the US,  unless we change the law, probably nobody...


My kids are all in agreement: if I have pain so bad that I can't go on, they won't interfere with my decisions in any way, and they won't let my doctors interfere either. Interference by medical staff is an issue. That's when you need your formal directives in place and the laws that protect your right to make those decisions.


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## Lakeland living (Feb 6, 2022)

I am going to say, it is up to the individual, having had to live in pain for many years I know how that feels.
Luckily for me, natural oils and other things worked for me.


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## feywon (Feb 6, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Opioids are the only effective pain reliever, but can't be used without the risk of addiction and/or death.


Exactly, like many  addictive substances we tend to build tolerance to opiods that make large doses necessary to block pain and too much (various factors in what is too much for specific individuals) causes death.


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## Don M. (Feb 6, 2022)

I think it's important for a person to make their wishes known, well in advance, and to have the legal documents....DNR, etc. prepared, AND have the family members in agreement.  

I would hate to be stuck in a hospital for weeks/months with a condition where there is virtually No hope for recovery.  All that does is pad the profits of our Health Care Industry, and increase the stress on the family.  

IF/When such a time arrives for me, unplug the machines, dope me up to the maximum, and let nature do its thing.


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## win231 (Feb 6, 2022)

C50 said:


> I actually have a fear of a traumatic health event sending me to the hospital and then straight to a nursing home, at that point my freedom of choice is gone.  I have told both my kids if that ever happens sign me out for a picnic and take me to a national forest and let me wander away.


Unfortunately, if they did that, or assisted in a suicide in any way, they would be charged with a crime.


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## Pepper (Feb 6, 2022)

win231 said:


> Unfortunately, if they did that, or assisted in a suicide in any way, they would be charged with a crime.


I had decided to take that risk anyway when it came to my mother.  I was determined no way would I ever let her suffer.  She had asked me not to let that happen and she had my assurance it wouldn't.  It was taken out of my hands as a driver mowed her down, before her time, while she was still healthy & active.


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## palides2021 (Feb 6, 2022)

I am like Mitch, I want to stay here as long as I can. Besides, my orthodox religion doesn't allow us to end our lives, and I don't intend to, no matter the pain. God put me here for a reason, and I'm not going to take His decision into my hands. I know we have free will, but I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Mitch's mind-over-body thinking is refreshing and I like the idea of playing games to alleviate pain, although I don't know how successful it would be for very intense pain.

My father had tremendous pain in his last few months with prostate cancer that had spread to his spine, and he was on painkillers to the very end. I pray no one ever experiences that! But he never decided to end it. Hospice took care of that.

One final thought, as long as I breathe, and medicine and technology is available to help me live a few days, months, or years longer, I will opt for that. Once I give out my last breath, there's no returning, and I've forfeited my chance to life or to better health, or to be with my family, even if it might be painful. These are my thoughts, and I respect your thoughts also. Have a wonderful day!


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## feywon (Feb 6, 2022)

C50 said:


> I actually have a fear of a traumatic health event sending me to the hospital and then straight to a nursing home, at that point my freedom of choice is gone.  I have told both my kids if that ever happens sign me out for a picnic and take me to a national forest and let me wander away.



I have actually told my daughter the same thing, tho we have more rational plans in place.

Hell, we live so rural, i could  'wander way' easily from home, but if i had my senses too much still i'd feel guilty about squandering peoples' time searching for me.


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## Knight (Feb 6, 2022)

Tom 86 said:


> While in the hospital I was watching one of their health channels.   I saw a  young woman that never gave up hope that her husband would recover.  He was on a breathing machine for 5 years. They kept after her to unplug the unit.
> 
> Finally, 5 years later he woke up & said to her "I love you" He is recovering & learning how to walk again.
> 
> God had a plan for him.


So the cost to keep her husband on life support for 5 years & her suffering all that time was a plan devised by God?

Would that be one of those mysterious ways?


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## Irwin (Feb 6, 2022)

I'd call it quits if my wife and my dog didn't need me. I'm a frickin' caregiver to them.


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## Chet (Feb 6, 2022)

If I was going to do a “do it yourself” job on myself I have thought of doing it in spectacular fashion like a high speed crash on a motorcycle. May as well have that be one last thrill.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> I believe now that no matter how much pain and suffering one has, he should stay alive to the last breath.  Life exists only once and, when we die, we totally cease to exist.  Thus, we should tolerate unlimited pain and suffering with full knowledge that there are times in everyone's life where we actually enjoy our life no matter how we suffered for most days.  Even if we are in a coma, we can still enjoy our thoughts.
> 
> Finally, pain is really a matter of the mind's perception.  If I have terrible pain, I play Civilization VI on my PC and get totally absorbed and all the pain goes  away.
> 
> Distraction is the best cure for pain and it cannot kill you.


I do agree, we should hang tough and hang through until the end.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Muslims believe suicide is a big sin. I feel so bad for those who have great pain and suffering. In the wake of a society where physician assisted suicide (considered different from euthanasia) is legal in 10 U.S. states and elsewhere I still have to agree with you Mitch. BTW Mitch...I keep you in prayer...that your chronic pain will be eased.


I hold to this opinion as well.  And all the world's major religions oppose suicide.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

One thing I would say...no matter what, don't make a decision while in pain, physically or emotionally.  At least wait until you are calmer and more stable and able to reflect deeply.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

My uncle took his life in 1987.  It was a horror show...for everyone.  A COMPLETE HORROR SHOW.  Talk to some survivors of suicide.  You do not want to do that to your surviving family and friends.

I understand the pain.  I was a violent crime victim.  In 1983 and 1984 I was profoundly suicidal.  I saw no hope. ZERO.  Somehow, I survived.  I am glad I did.


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## OneEyedDiva (Feb 6, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> One thing I would say...no matter what, don't make a decision while in pain, physically or emotionally.  At least wait until you are calmer and more stable and able to reflect deeply.


Problem is...some people and I assume it would be the people who are thinking about assisted suicide are in constant pain unless they are morphined up. My youngest grandson was diagnosed with figromyalgia about a year and a half ago. He was in such pain all over his body for months that he missed school. He had to be hospitalized a couple of times and all kinds of tests were run. That's an ailment that sometimes is helped by pain management...sometimes not. My grandson has learned to live with it and is trying to do his best to help his own condition. My DIL suffered from it too and now my middle grandson has been diagnosed. Then of course there are the cancer patients who are wracked with pain.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Problem is...some people and I assume it would be the people who are thinking about assisted suicide are in constant pain unless they are morphined up. My youngest grandson was diagnosed with figromyalgia about a year and a half ago. He was in such pain all over his body for months that he missed school. He had to be hospitalized a couple of times and all kinds of tests were run. That's an ailment that sometimes is helped by pain management...sometimes not. My grandson has learned to live with it and is trying to do his best to help his own condition. My DIL suffered from it too and now my middle grandson has been diagnosed. Then of course there are the cancer patients who are wracked with pain.


I live in very very severe chronic pain.  I still do not believe in suicide.  It is hard to comment further, because I really don't want to offend those who are not religious.

So, for the religious...

The standard teaching in all the world's major religions is that suicide is an extreme sin, an extreme defiance of God. And rather than suicide releasing someone from pain, they enter a state in the afterlife where the pain levels are beyond description.

I have a specific reference for this, from the teachings of three different saints. And from other sources as well.


If you are not religious, please do not be offended by my comments.


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## RFW (Feb 6, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> My uncle took his life in 1987.  It was a horror show...for everyone.  A COMPLETE HORROR SHOW.  Talk to some survivors of suicide.  You do not want to do that to your surviving family and friends.
> 
> I understand the pain.  I was a violent crime victim.  In 1983 and 1984 I was profoundly suicidal.  I saw no hope. ZERO.  Somehow, I survived.  I am glad I did.


We did a welfare check one time for a elderly man who lived alone and found his lifeless body and a gun. Not a good sight to see and glad the family weren't there to see it.


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## JonSR77 (Feb 6, 2022)

RFW said:


> We did a welfare check one time for a elderly man who lived alone and found his lifeless body and a gun. Not a good sight to see and glad the family weren't there to see it.


very sorry that you had that experience.  Must have been horrible.  I assume those scenes are not like in the movies.  Far, far, far worse.

I met some firemen who worked at 9/11 Ground Zero.  What they told me was worse than any horror movie ever made.


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## OneEyedDiva (Feb 6, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> I live in very very severe chronic pain.  I still do not believe in suicide.  It is hard to comment further, because I really don't want to offend those who are not religious.
> 
> So, for the religious...
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you..just pointing out that for some it would be hard to find a time to make a decision when they are not in pain. I'm sorry that you are in constant pain. It is obvious you are religious, so I feel safe in saying I will pray for you. I mentioned my grandsons. I don't think the youngest one ever considered suicide, in fact the medical staff at the hospital remarked on how surprised they were by his positive attitude in pushing through the pain. The middle one made a half a*s attempt a few years ago but that was due to his depression (hadn't had the fibromyalgia symptoms yet). He has studied Christianity, Islam and Judaism...ultimately accepted Islam and has been in a much better state of mind since.


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## Tish (Feb 6, 2022)

To each their own.


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## Irwin (Feb 6, 2022)

Chet said:


> If I was going to do a “do it yourself” job on myself I have thought of doing it in spectacular fashion like a high speed crash on a motorcycle. May as well have that be one last thrill.


That could be extremely painful, and you might wind up in a vegetative state, hanging on only through the use of machines pumping your heart for you and your brain slowly atrophies until all you can do is lie in bed watching reality TV shows. That would be horrible.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 6, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> It should be noted that every state in the USA allows any individual to create a Living Will and Advanced Directive whereby one can refuse all medication including nutrition and hydration.  Of course, relatives could block that but one must discuss it all with relatives and get their consent before it becomes necessary.  An attorney is required to draw up those documents and requirements may differ in each state.  It takes just two weeks to die using that legal method.
> 
> For me I will try and hold out even in a coma.  By the way, my severe pain in legs and feet was caused by arthritis of the spine combined with one doctor inflicting pain on my feet since he was going through a bitter divorce and the second doctor hitting my feet with his fists since I had squealed to the police and the Dept. of Public Health.
> 
> ...


WWWWHHHHHAAaaattt???????!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mizmo (Feb 6, 2022)

Just something to lighten the subject...

A few years ago when I was quite  a bit  younger, friends and I would get into  discussions about how we would die if given a 'terminal'  notice.
My story was that I would buy a large bottle of vodka , drive my car down to the lake, sit in for a while listening to my fav classical music meantime getting drunker by the minute with the straight vodka, then take what was left and just walk into the lake and let it take me wherever.
 We all agreed that was a good way to go and had a good laugh too.

Well about 5 years ago, early morning news  on TV was that the body of an elderly  unidentified  lady had washed up on to the beach. I lived across from that particular area and saw the fire engines etc., along the beachfront. I didn't think much about it til my phone started ringing. It  rang about fifteen times that morning......you can guess why...

Yes friends thought I had 'been and gone and done it'.     Hahaha..never told that story again.

I have provided my daughter with living will and all the necessary boxes are ticked for a neat wrap up when the time comes. 
No hanging around waiting...well, maybe a few shots o vodka would help


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## Cornfused (Feb 6, 2022)

Very subjective topic, I think it’s up to the person. I do think it would be nice to have the option to leave, but to some life is so dear they simply can’t, and for others there religious implications.


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## Shero (Feb 6, 2022)

I believe that God does not want us to suffer terrible, unbearable pain.
Personally, although I totally disapprove of suicide for a healthy person. one must think of what severe depression does to some people.

However, euthanasia is a different thing. Extreme pain, your suffering and the suffering of your family, watching you slowly die. I know, this is not what I want for my family to witness, if I am ever in that situation. So regardless of religion, I already know what I would do.

I must say I respect anyone's belief or decisions made. That is their choice.


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## Shero (Feb 6, 2022)

Many devout Muslims believe that Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) orders represent a soft form of euthanasia which is strictly forbidden in Islam.* Muslims cannot kill, or be complicit in the killing of another, except in the interests of justice.*

However, the Islamic Code of Medical Ethics states "it is futile to diligently keep the patient in a vegetative state by heroic means... It is the process of life that the doctor aims to maintain and not the process of dying". This means doctors can stop trying to prolong life in cases where there is no hope of a cure.

According to the Islamic Medical Association of America (IMANA) "When death becomes inevitable, as determined by physicians taking care of terminally ill patients, the patient should be allowed to die without unnecessary procedures."

IMANA say that turning off life support for patients deemed to be in a persistent vegetative state is permissible. This is because they consider all mechanical life support procedures as temporary measures.

While turning off a life-support is allowed, hastening death with the use of certain pain-killing drugs is not allowed as this would equate to euthanasia.

My PS:

I have highlighted a sentence in the 1st paragraph, because I ask when is it* just* to kill? Is it when someone does not carry out the king’s law as in Saudi Arabia? This hypocritical attitude makes me mad!


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 9, 2022)

It's rude to leave a mess for someone else to clean up. The problem lies in that those who are suicidal have often reached a point, that they are so immersed in their own misery, the outside world doesn't really exist for them.  Mike

Quote: We did a welfare check one time for a elderly man who lived alone and found his lifeless body and a gun. Not a good sight to see and glad the family weren't there to see it.


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## Fyrefox (Feb 12, 2022)

When healthy my father made it clear that he believed in euthanasia, commenting that we do it for animals but not people.  In the end stages of Parkinson’s disease, my father during a lucid moment begged my sister to bring him poison.  Of course, she could not do that.  As he deteriorated further and lost the ability to communicate and then swallow, the family was faced with the decision of whether to install a feeding tube, which would have been against his wishes.  Fortunately we didn’t have to make that decision as in his weakened state he died within days of refusing to attempt food ingestion on his own.  I believe that he found an option, and took back control of his life in this final decision…


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## RFW (Feb 12, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> It's rude to leave a mess for someone else to clean up. The problem lies in that those who are suicidal have often reached a point, that they are so immersed in their own misery, the outside world doesn't really exist for them.  Mike
> 
> Quote: We did a welfare check one time for a elderly man who lived alone and found his lifeless body and a gun. Not a good sight to see and glad the family weren't there to see it.


Yes. Someone tells me he wants to just walk into traffic, I say you're just gonna end up taking somebody else with him. How would your family feel? You jump off a bridge and drown, sooner or later, somebody is going to find your bloated body. Won't be an open casket for you.


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## garyt1957 (Feb 12, 2022)

win231 said:


> Everyone who hasn't been there finds it easy to say, "I would never end my life or want to end my life."
> The reason they can say that is because they haven't been there; they only _think _they've been there.  They can only go by the worst pain & the longest duration of pain they've suffered _so far._
> The word _"Severe_" covers a wide range of severity.  And everyone has different pain tolerance levels.


I tend to agree, but the same goes for the people ( like me) who say when the time comes sign me up for assisted suicide, or give me a gun and I'll kill myself. You may think that way now, but you won't really know till the time comes.


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 12, 2022)

I have been pretty damn sick through Chemo and I do remember times laying in bed when I lost a lot of weight just staring at my son who was at my bedside and thinking this is it. I consider myself a fighter though and I will always fight til the end no matter how down I am. So til the end I will go.


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## win231 (Feb 12, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> I tend to agree, but the same goes for the people ( like me) who say when the time comes sign me up for assisted suicide, or give me a gun and I'll kill myself. You may think that way now, but you won't really know till the time comes.


Good perspective from the other side of the coin!


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## Mitch86 (Feb 12, 2022)

When the time comes, only what is practical can be done.  Best to just play games to distract oneself when pain is severe. I play Civilization VI and somehow never die from it but it distracts me from all pain.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

palides2021 said:


> One final thought, as long as I breathe, and medicine and technology is available to help me live a few days, months, or years longer, I will opt for that. Once I give out my last breath, there's no returning, and I've forfeited my chance to life or to better health, or to be with my family, even if it might be painful. These are my thoughts, and I respect your thoughts also. Have a wonderful day!


Shalom today to you and your household.
One more thought that many people over the years have found very interesting at least, and often helpful -
besides drugs,  there are many simple helps to alleviate almost any pain.  This is not accepted nor authorized under the legal medical system in the usa and likely not in many other countries also,  but can still be found , hopefully,  without too much difficulty and at a very low price,  and no toxicity, no side effects as an extra benefit/incentive to find out.    Seek out and Read as much as you can find ,  and talk with other people or even support groups if you can find one that utilizes grandma's old remedies and /or alternative directions from what is officially allowed.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 13, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Shalom today to you and your household.
> One more thought that many people over the years have found very interesting at least, and often helpful -
> besides drugs,  there are many simple helps to alleviate almost any pain.  This is not accepted nor authorized under the legal medical system in the usa and likely not in many other countries also,  but can still be found , hopefully,  without too much difficulty and at a very low price,  and no toxicity, no side effects as an extra benefit/incentive to find out.    Seek out and Read as much as you can find ,  and talk with other people or even support groups if you can find one that utilizes grandma's old remedies and /or alternative directions from what is officially allowed.


You and my son are on the same page Jeff. I'm sure if I'm ever suffering due to pain, he would try seek out holistic methods for me. Sometimes it will come up in passing about different health issues. 

@palides2021 @JonSR77  Like both of you, assisted suicide would be out of the question for me too because suicide is considered a major sin in Islam. I would hope pain management techniques would work very well.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> You and my son are on the same page Jeff. I'm sure if I'm ever suffering due to pain, he would try seek out holistic methods for me. Sometimes it will come up in passing about different health issues.


COOL!    Today is the day to find out - tomorrow or next week, next month, or next year it may be banned by then, and/or too late.


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## WheatenLover (Jun 13, 2022)

My mother was in terrible pain before she died. Morphine would not touch it, so the doctor kept increasing the dose until it worked. Before she went into hospice, my mother, sister, and I had to agree that the doctors could give her even a lethal dose, if that is what her pain level required. We all readily agreed. And that is what happened.

My plan is to exit life when it becomes warranted:  pain and being put into a nursing home are the two factors I will consider. I expect that my life, should that time arise, will be near the end anyway.


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## JonSR77 (Jun 13, 2022)

I think we should fight until the last breath.

My uncle took his life in 1987.

I have had problems with depression.

Violent crime victim in 1982. Was very suicidal in 1983 and 1984.

From my own experiences, yes, I think we should fight until the last breath.


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## JonSR77 (Jun 13, 2022)

Suicide Resources


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
Hours: Available 24 hours. Languages: English, Spanish.
800-273-8255

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
We can all help prevent suicide. The Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.
1-800-273-8255

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

++++++++++++++++

International Suicide Hotlines

https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

++++


From NAMI

How to Talk (and Listen) to Someone Experiencing Suicidal Thoughts


https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/September-2021/How-to-Talk-(and-Listen)-to-Someone-Experiencing-Suicidal-Thoughts

+++++++++++++++


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## Murrmurr (Jun 13, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> Suicide Resources
> 
> 
> National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
> ...


There are resources for assisted suicide as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24182377/


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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 13, 2022)

If you are a Christian, you cannot take your own life.  My mother suffered with lung disease for over 12 years.  In her late stage she asked to be put in hospice.  Up until then she really was not in physical pain, but great discomfort, not being able to get her breath.  Hospice kept he comfortable and stopped her from being in any pain.  They gave her morphine when she needed it, one night around 3am she quietly passed away. She did not suffer any pain, she just passed in her sleep.


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## Mr. Ed (Jun 13, 2022)

If we have terrible suffering, should we exit life or stay alive to the last breath?​I have looked forward to death nearly all of my life


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## win231 (Jun 13, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> It's rude to leave a mess for someone else to clean up. The problem lies in that those who are suicidal have often reached a point, that they are so immersed in their own misery, the outside world doesn't really exist for them.  Mike
> 
> Quote: We did a welfare check one time for a elderly man who lived alone and found his lifeless body and a gun. Not a good sight to see and glad the family weren't there to see it.


It's not that they're "rude" or "don't care."  It's that they have no other option.
Anyone who has good reason to commit suicide would much rather go to have it nicely & neatly done legally.  But what are they to do without that option?
And why do we have that option for our beloved pets & not humans?


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

I want to die happy.  I would not be happy if I was mentally or physically incapacitated.  I miss Dr. Kevorkian.


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## win231 (Jun 13, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I want to die happy.  I would not be happy if I was mentally or physically incapacitated.  I miss Dr. Kevorkian.


Big difference.  Dr. Kevorkian got in trouble because he made a spectacle of himself - videotaping it publicly & he also seemed to enjoy killing & he enjoyed the attention.
Some of the people he killed needed psychotherapy; not a lethal injection.  Some were just unhappy.
Before killing, he would tape interviews with his "patients."  He asked them leading questions that hinted at encouraging them to want to die.
I saw an interview after he taped the killing of a woman who was unhappy about being overweight.
The interviewer asked Dr. Kevorkian, "Why didn't you suggest healthier eating & some exercise?"
Dr. Kevorkian replied, _"Exercise?  She weighed 211 pounds."_
Quite telling.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

win231 said:


> Big difference.  Dr. Kevorkian got in trouble because he made a spectacle of himself - videotaping it publicly & he also seemed to enjoy killing & he enjoyed the attention.
> Some of the people he killed needed psychotherapy; not a lethal injection.  Some were just unhappy.
> Before killing, he would tape interviews with his "patients."  He asked them leading questions that hinted at encouraging them to want to die.
> I saw an interview after he taped the killing of a woman who was unhappy about being overweight.
> ...


Perhaps I will edit the last part out.  But Dr. Kevorkian was the first person I heard of who spoke of assisted suicide - the first person to go against the idea of "life at all costs."  Speaking of costs, it is highly profitable to keep the incapacitated alive for as long as possible.  (I worked in nursing homes and have horror stories on victims patients.)  I want the right to die.


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## dseag2 (Jun 13, 2022)

My mother was in hospice and on oxygen for over a year due to her heart.  During most of it, she was comfortable but no longer mobile.  She had been using a walker prior, but that was no longer an option.  She would sit in her recliner chair when I visited her and say to me "the physical therapist says he can help me walk again".  I knew that wasn't going to happen, and it would break my heart.

A month prior to her passing, she was sitting in her recliner chair and had been extremely ill the night before.  At that point, she became completely bedridden.  She would often plead to get out of the bed and back into her chair.  She became very fidgety and cried out to "go back home" or she said "please get me out of here".  She was in tremendous pain and mental distress as her organs shut down and she stopped eating.  It was terrible to see.  She was lucid for the most part, and I would just go visit and tell her I loved her.  She could sleep during the day but not at night.  She was on Morphine, but anyone who says this is the answer is simply doesn't care.

So, long story short, I do believe assisted suicide should be available.  I've seen someone die, and no one should have to go through this type of agony.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

win231 said:


> Anyone who has good reason to commit suicide would much rather go to have it nicely & neatly done legally.  But what are they to do without that option?


Exactly.  I want to go out in a fashion similar to the death scene in Soylent Green:







win231 said:


> And why do we have that option for our beloved pets & not human?


Isn't it amazing that most of us won't let our animals suffer, so we do the_* humane*_ thing - but with our family members, we are forced to let them linger in prolonged agony until their final, painful deaths, even when they have expressed the desire to die ?  Ridiculous.


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## Mitch86 (Jun 14, 2022)

There is a legal option to Exit in every state of the USA. It is called the Living Will and Advanced Directive.  One should have those documents drawn up by an attorney.  I have them. They allow anyone to refuse all medications including nutrition and hydration. One dies in 2 to 3 weeks after one goes down that road.  It is called "VSED" meaning Voluntary Stopping Eating and Drinking.  One should alert all relatives of one's choice and give close relatives a copy.

If one is forced to go to a Nursing Home, one should retain an Elder Law Attorney to make sure that he will use the courts if anyone tries to interfere including relatives.  Of course, one must pay that attorney and the indigent do NOT have that option.

I keep a copy on a bureau right next to my bed just in case.  I am 87.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> There is a legal option to Exit in every state of the USA. It is called the Living Will and Advanced Directive.  One should have those documents drawn up by an attorney.  I have them. They allow anyone to refuse all medications including nutrition and hydration. One dies in 2 to 3 weeks after one goes down that road.  It is called "VSED" meaning Voluntary Stopping Eating and Drinking.  One should alert all relatives of one's choice and give close relatives a copy.
> 
> If one is forced to go to a Nursing Home, one should retain an Elder Law Attorney to make sure that he will use the courts if anyone tries to interfere including relatives.  Of course, one must pay that attorney and the indigent do NOT have that option.
> 
> I keep a copy on a bureau right next to my bed just in case.  I am 87.


Hi Mitch.  Unfortunately, the conditions under which those documents take effect vary by state. I do have both and they are filed in my daughter's safe and my medical provider's office.  The forms Ohio uses are no where near as comprehensive in nature as another state's documents I found, thanks to an EMT on this site, so I filled out those also, just to make sure that I have my bases covered. i.e. my wishes are clear.

I know that some patients were given nutrition and hydration under the guise of "pain relief."  Wording is important.

Quality of life is far more important to me than duration.  I know some folks try to cling to every possible breathe, but I  want to have a quality life until the day I die. 

Best of health to you.  ~ Em


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