# Indonesia executes drug smugglers!  Is this a good thing?



## Ralphy1 (Apr 29, 2015)

I know that some of you are against any form of capital punishment but I think that it sends a strong message not to mess with this activity or face a firing squad.  As, after all, the drugs you smuggle ruin or end lives.  Can we agree?  Probably not...


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## mitchezz (Apr 29, 2015)

These two men were totally rehabilitated and prepared to serve a life sentence and had shown remorse for their crime. The Mr Big who orchestrated this crime has long found new couriers. The Australian Police know who he is but the two men executed refused to testify against him for fear of reprisals against their families. Their murder serves no purpose.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 29, 2015)

But it does serve a purpose, it sends a message...


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## Pam (Apr 29, 2015)

With you on this one, mitchezz!


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## Phantom (Apr 29, 2015)

I don't believe it was murder Their country Their rules They knew the full consequences of their actions when they arrived 

I don't believe in the media hype though Showing the crosses and coffins then taping the gunshots.I feel for their families



Had they not been caught I wonder how many lives would have been lost due to drug abuse etc. 
  Food for thought ...............................What is done is done Their law barbaric yes Don't like it ? Stay way Or at least enjoy your stay without interfering with their custom

This debate could go on for years to come


WORTH A READ


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-year-old-mule-Hong-Kong-jail-mouth-shut.html


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## QuickSilver (Apr 29, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> But it does serve a purpose, it sends a message...



Since when has capital punishment EVER sent a message?  It's simply NOT a crime deterrent.  It's not even punishment... It's revenge.


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## Shalimar (Apr 29, 2015)

Legalized murder is still murder. Capital punishment is an abomination. Revenge is not civilized. Indonesia is one of the most corrupt nations on earth.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 29, 2015)

The law is the law.  Violate it at your own peril, even to forfeiting your life...


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## Warrigal (Apr 29, 2015)

At the time the drug smugglers were arrested and tried, I was hostile towards them because they were planning to bring heroin into Australia.
Now I am much less so. They have, over the last 10 years in prison, changed for the better and have rehabilitated themselves to the point that they are both now an asset to the prison system.

Execution surely means that a person is beyond reform, is too dangerous to ever be set free and that their life is without value. None of these ideas apply now to Chan and Sukumaran. The executions were pointless except for the purpose of proving a political point.

I hope that both men were able to die with their dignity intact. 

Six others were executed with them, all before the same firing squad - four Nigerians, a Brazilian and an Indonesian man. A Philippine woman was granted a reprieve while further investigation of her case takes place.

Our Ambassador to Indonesia has been recalled and certain high level meetings have been cancelled.


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## Glinda (Apr 29, 2015)

I believe capital punishment should be used sparingly and only in cases of murder.  To say these guys indirectly murdered people is stretching it.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 29, 2015)

Your PM is a jerk, but you know that...


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## Shalimar (Apr 29, 2015)

Do you know history Ralphy? Time was one could be hung for stealing a loaf of bread, even a child. In modern times guilty until proven rich is the norm. Bad  laws are not to be respected. I do not wish to live in a totalitarian society. My country does not endorse capital punishment.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 29, 2015)

Glinda said:


> I believe capital punishment should be used sparingly and only in cases of murder.  To say these guys indirectly murdered people is stretching it.



and only in cases of murder with irrefutable DNA evidence.  Too many people are found to be innocent of crimes after spending 30 years in prison.  I shudder to think how many innocent people have be executed.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 29, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The law is the law.  Violate it at your own peril, even to forfeiting your life...



What's with the blood thirst Ralphy?


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## Shalimar (Apr 29, 2015)

QS I think Ralphy is pot stirring as usual.who knows what he really believes?


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## Glinda (Apr 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> and only in cases of murder with irrefutable DNA evidence.  Too many people are found to be innocent of crimes after spending 30 years in prison.  I shudder to think how many innocent people have be executed.



Yes, I agree DNA evidence is important but I'm not sure that it should be mandatory.  I'll have to think about that.  Also, I agree that the death penalty is sometimes applied unfairly with regard to race and monetary status.  QS, does Illinois still have a moratorium on the death penalty?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 29, 2015)

Glinda said:


> Yes, I agree DNA evidence is important but I'm not sure that it should be mandatory.  I'll have to think about that.  Also, I agree that the death penalty is sometimes applied unfairly with regard to race and monetary status.  QS, does Illinois still have a moratorium on the death penalty?



Not a moratorium...  It was abolished in 2011 by Governor Quin.


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## Cookie (Apr 29, 2015)

I too am disappointed that the smugglers were executed, but not  surprised as I have seen other examples on news documentaries of Indonesia's barbaric laws. I would never vacation there, and this may even negatively affect their tourist industry. As for the death penalty in general, I am completely against it.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> and only in cases of murder with irrefutable DNA evidence.  Too many people are found to be innocent of crimes after spending 30 years in prison.  I shudder to think how many innocent people have be executed.



That's one reason I'm opposed.  Hate to think how many innocent people were wrongly executed.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm sure there have been many.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I too am disappointed that the smugglers were executed, but not  surprised as I have seen other examples on news documentaries of Indonesia's barbaric laws. I would never vacation there, and this may even negatively affect their tourist industry. As for the death penalty in general, I am completely against it.



I doubt this will affect the tourism industry.


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## Cookie (Apr 29, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I doubt this will affect the tourism industry.



Too bad, because I would like to see them get some message that their actions are unacceptable.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Too bad, because I would like to see them get some message that their actions are unacceptable.



Many foreign countries don't care what other countries think of them though.  The only thing that really stops tourism is if you feel you'll be in danger if you go.  If you don't break the law you usually have nothing to fear, or if they are rioting or overthrowing the government. 

Thailand has some strange laws but doesn't keep me from going.  You risk 15 years in prison if you say anything disrespectful about the king or deface his image.  You can be deported for having a tattoo of the Buddha.  So I won't do either of those things.


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## Cookie (Apr 29, 2015)

Exactly, tourists are there for their pleasure and are usually very respected and welcomed, especially those with more money.  I agree, unless there is a travel ban the tourist trade will flourish. My sister and BIL have been all over the world to some places I would really hesitate to go. This fall, they are planning a trip to India, which I think might be a mistake, especially for them, who are used to luxury, and we'll see how that goes.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 29, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Many foreign countries don't care what other countries think of them though.  The only thing that really stops tourism is if you feel you'll be in danger if you go.  If you don't break the law you usually have nothing to fear, or if they are rioting or overthrowing the government.
> 
> Thailand has some strange laws but doesn't keep me from going.  You risk 15 years in prison if you say anything disrespectful about the king or deface his image.  You can be deported for having a tattoo of the Buddha.  So I won't do either of those things.


I think it would be fun to tattoo a Buddha on your butt so you could walk around smiling knowing you got 'em!! After you left you could take a pic of just your tattoo and send it back to the police chief!!


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I think it would be fun to tattoo a Buddha on your butt so you could walk around smiling knowing you got 'em!! After you left you could take a pic of just your tattoo and send it back to the police chief!!



LOL!  Such a rebel!  Problem is we want to keep returning.  We did see a guy with a Buddha tattoo on his arm but don't know if he got caught.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Exactly, tourists are there for their pleasure and are usually very respected and welcomed, especially those with more money.  I agree, unless there is a travel ban the tourist trade will flourish. My sister and BIL have been all over the world to some places I would really hesitate to go. This fall, they are planning a trip to India, which I think might be a mistake, especially for them, who are used to luxury, and we'll see how that goes.



We are very well treated there and Thais are too polite to tell you when you've insulted them (not knowingly).  I would like to go India and Merlin here loves visiting.  Ask what he thinks.  

African countries still do well with tourists who mainly want to go on safaris and I'm quite sure they don't agree with many of their laws.  Uganda nearly passed a law where gays could get the death sentence if they are seen as 'promoting' homosexuality.  The pressure put on them wasn't by tourists, it was by aid agencies who said they'd withdraw their funding.


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## Glinda (Apr 29, 2015)

Annie, are you sure you don't want a Buddha tattoo on your butt?!  Think about how much fun it would be!!!


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## Ameriscot (Apr 29, 2015)

Glinda said:


> Annie, are you sure you don't want a Buddha tattoo on your butt?!  Think about how much fun it would be!!!



NO, I do not want a Buddha tattoo on my butt.  I don't want a tattoo anywhere!  layful:


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## AZ Jim (Apr 29, 2015)

Ooops


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## Warrigal (Apr 29, 2015)

The death penalty does not seem to deter drug smugglers. Asian countries are known to be tough on drugs and there are notices at the airports for all to see. In the past we have had a number of Australian nationals executed for drug smuggling (hanged in Malaysia 1986) and Van Nguyen  (hanged in Singapore 2002 ). There have been others sentenced to death who have had their sentences commuted. 

Even so, they keep offending and getting caught. The latest tried to smuggle methamphetamine out of China.

*Sydney man's death penalty drug case fast-tracked in China*








Peter Gardner will go on trial in China for allegedly attempting to export 30kg of methamphetamine. Partner Kalynda Davis was released. (Supplied)

A Sydney man detained in China on suspicion of smuggling drugs has had his death penalty case pushed forward six months. 
Peter Gardner, 25, was arrested last November in Guangzhou, where local police claim he tried to smuggle 40kg of methamphetamines out of China. 
After several months in detention, Gardner will now face trial on May 7, News.com.au reports. 

His lawyer, Craig Tuck, said the reason the trial has been brought forward is unknown. 
Gardner could face death by firing squad if found guilty. 

At least a dozen foreigners have been executed in China in the past 15 years, according to Amnesty International. 
In China's legal system, once cases like Gardener's pass to the courts, conviction rates reportedly are 99 percent. 

Gardner's travelling partner, Sydney woman Kalynda Davis, 22, was released without charge in December after a month in custody. 
The pair apparently met on an online dating site, just weeks before the arrest, and arranged to travel to Guangzhou, in China's southern region, for three days. 
The pair was on their way home on November 8 when they were stopped at airport security screening after checks revealed something unusual inside Gardner's bags. 

A search allegedly revealed the drugs concealed within 60 vacuum-sealed bags inside two cases. 

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/...as-drug-case-fast-tracked#ssLz1kDKKxxvbbvw.99


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## Kadee (Apr 29, 2015)

One of the Bali Bommers is free on bail for killing people ,(I don't remember if Australians were killed or injured) ....The two  Australians that have been  excuted , didn't directly kill anyone .....Don't get me wrong I throughly dislike how drugs are effecting our lifestyles , by being afraid in our own homes ,with ever increasing home invasions, ( Its not unusual to hear of a drug related home invasion on the daily news) as well as road rage as a result of drugs..
I'm disappointed the two men from Australia were excuted while the Big boys are still out there running their drug businesses ......


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## Susie (Apr 29, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> I know that some of you are against any form of capital punishment but I think that it sends a strong message not to mess with this activity or face a firing squad.  As, after all, the drugs you smuggle ruin or end lives.  Can we agree?  Probably not...


Totally agree.
Death by hanging or firing squad seems barbaric.
But not so when you consider the 1000's of young people hooked on drugs, whose  lives are permanently affected by addiction.
Have you ever experienced an entire student body drugged to the gills on a Friday afternoon? (Calif. 1971)


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## Shalimar (Apr 29, 2015)

What about the deleterious effects of our favourite drug alcohol? Legal certainly, but responsible for so much pain, suffering and death when misused.Alcoholism is  every bit as toxic as the illegal drugs.


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## Kadee (Apr 30, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What about the deleterious effects of our favourite drug alcohol? Legal certainly, but responsible for so much pain, suffering and death when misused.Alcoholism is  every bit as toxic as the illegal drugs.



I agree with you Shalimar ..
I see Alcohol being promoted on cooking shows, and advertised on TV during sports matches, Alcohol is advertised as essential to have with for a good meal ....I ask how many violent crimes/ murders are committed, on both men and women due to Alcohol ...................SO WHY with all the trouble that alcohol causes,without mentioning health problems, are TV stations and billboards still pemited to advertise/ promote it...I'm not talking about something I know nothing about .. I won't go into the details but let me say,I was the eldest of eight children who including myself suffered, from starvation, neglect and abuse as a result of parents being Alcoholics.....As a result I have never touched drink ...
Smoking has been banned almost everywhere , however I have never smoked and I was pleased to be able to go out for a meal without having the toxic effect of others smoking effect my lungs, but I don't know of anyone who was murdered or had acts of violence against them as a result of smoking tobacco Compaired to alcohol ......


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## Warrigal (Apr 30, 2015)

One of the men executed yesterday was a schizophrenic man from Brazil



> *'Am I being executed?' Schizophrenic Brazilian did not realise he was about to die*
> 
> April 30, 2015
> (29)
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 30, 2015)

Only the Shadow knows...nthego:


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## koala (Apr 30, 2015)

Kadee46 said:


> I agree with you Shalimar ..
> I see Alcohol being promoted on cooking shows, and advertised on TV during sports matches, Alcohol is advertised as essential to have with for a good meal ....I ask how many violent crimes/ murders are committed, on both men and women due to Alcohol ...................SO WHY with all the trouble that alcohol causes,without mentioning health problems, are TV stations and billboards still pemited to advertise/ promote it...I'm not talking about something I know nothing about .. I won't go into the details but let me say,I was the eldest of eight children who including myself suffered, from starvation, neglect and abuse as a result of parents being Alcoholics.....As a result I have never touched drink ...
> Smoking has been banned almost everywhere , however I have never smoked and I was pleased to be able to go out for a meal without having the toxic effect of others smoking effect my lungs, but I don't know of anyone who was murdered or had acts of violence against them as a result of smoking tobacco Compaired to alcohol ......



Kadee without any actual evidence on any of the following, IMHO I feel that legal alcohol and smoking has a much more wide spread effect on the human race than drugs. I also feel that the actual costs to the health system is massive due to the effects of alcohol and smoking. You could also add to that the wide spread effects of legal gambling to the families and community.


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## Susie (Apr 30, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What about the deleterious effects of our favourite drug alcohol? Legal certainly, but responsible for so much pain, suffering and death when misused.Alcoholism is  every bit as toxic as the illegal drugs.


So true, Shalimar.
Started thinking about the 'causes' of alcohol, drug, and gambling addiction and found the following site, don't know how 'valid' some of the assertions are, but it does make one think:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/addiction/


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 30, 2015)

The U.S. tried prohibition but the American public would rather imbibe than abide...


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## Ameriscot (Apr 30, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The U.S. tried prohibition but the American public would rather imbibe than abide...



Watched a PBS programme on prohibition which was really, really interesting.  Learned many things about it that I didn't know.


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## Warrigal (Apr 30, 2015)

Back to the Indonesian executions

All of the men facing the firing squad refused a blindfold and died with their faces to their executioners.
They had prepared themselves by singing together.

*Doomed men sang hymns in the face of death
*
10:58am, Apr 29, 2015
Jackson Stiles Advisor Editor

_ 
Chan and Sukumaran reportedly died with the words of a famous song of redemption on their lips.
Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran sang Christian hymns with their fellow inmates moments before bullets ended all their lives, a witness has claimed. The singing was “breathtaking”, said Pastor Karina de Vega, who provided spiritual guidance to Brazilian man Rodrigo Gularte.
“They were praising their God,” the religious leader told local media.

• *The ‘inspirational’ lives of Chan and Sukumaran*

“It was breathtaking. This was the first time I witnessed someone so excited to meet their God.
“They sang a few songs together, like in a choir. The non-Christian I believe also sang from his heart. It was such an experience.”

Amazing Grace was reportedly one of the hymns. It includes the lyrics:“Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come.
“Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far and Grace will lead me home.
“Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease, I shall possess within the veil a life of joy and peace.”​Outside the compound on Indonesia’s notorious ‘death island’, family members and friends were also heard singing. At 3:30am, gunfire rang out across the island, reportedly turning the singing of loved ones to hysterical tears.

Outside the Indonesian embassy in Canberra, there was only eery silence, save for the sounding of a few car horns. The night before, candlelight vigils were held across Australia in protest, and in fading hope of mercy.

As Australians woke to the news, flowers and angry messages gathered outside the Indonesian consulate in Sydney.

“I pity your heart Joko,” said one note to the country’s president.

Two long-stemmed flowers, with a poignant quote from Nelson Mandela, were tied to the gate.
“You will achieve more in this world through acts of mercy than you will with acts of retribution”, the message said.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015...0&spJobID=543007019&spReportId=NTQzMDA3MDE5S0


_


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## Kadee (Apr 30, 2015)

koala said:


> Kadee without any actual evidence on any of the following, IMHO I feel that legal alcohol and smoking has a much more wide spread effect on the human race than drugs. I also feel that the actual costs to the health system is massive due to the effects of alcohol and smoking. You could also add to that the wide spread effects of legal gambling to the families and community.


We have evidence in Australia of the effects of  Alcohol, smoking and drugs. On families ...The Australian goverment is giving some families who spend all their Centerlink ( welfare system) payments on Alcohol, smoking, drugs instead of feeding children/ themselfs a card system which their rent, utilities , and food can be paid from the card with no cash, to enable any person on the card system to buy drugs etc...... I cannot give the exact details I'm only quoting what I have read in the newspapers.However when I was working with disabled people I seen many who were being taken down by dishonest family members using the disabled persons pension to buy ciggaretes and  alcohol.


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## Shalimar (Apr 30, 2015)

In Canada cigarettes cost at least ten dollars a pack, perhaps more. A moderate smoker goes through a pack a day, that is almost three hundred dollars a month. Even if you buy tobacco and roll your own, there goes one humdred fifty dollars per month. IF two parents smoke, double the cost. Who is wealthy enough to absorb that expense without a negative financial  effect on their family? This does not even address obvious health issues regulated to exposure to cigarette smoke.


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## Susie (Apr 30, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> One of the men executed yesterday was a schizophrenic man from Brazil


who tried to smuggle 6 kilograms of cocaine into Indonesia.
Realizing that "Barmherzigkeit" 'mercy' is here the Christian motto, I wonder how this same "Barmherzigkeit" helps neglected, mistreated children of parents addicted to cocaine?
Either family or social services must step in and remove these poor children from a dangerous, horrible environment
I feel offending dealers and parents do not deserve "Barmherzifkeit".
If not a death sentence, then they should be institutionalized and re-educated for a lengthy period of time.
Instead children are being institutionalized , sent to orphanages and similar places.


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## Warrigal (Apr 30, 2015)

Mercy is not earned. It is given to the undeserving as well as the deserving.

Shakespeare explained it well over 400 years ago.



> The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene I
> The quality of mercy is not strained;
> It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
> Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
> ...


None of us shall see salvation without mercy. All we will receive is justice. 
IMO, now that the drug smugglers have forfeited their lives we have no further reason to condemn them.
They have received justice although there is still a cloud over that justice, and now they await the mercy of God.


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## Warrigal (Apr 30, 2015)

Here's another one. This time in Malaysia, a country that executes drug smugglers.
Why do they take the risk?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-...e-death-penalty-after-chemists-report/6435410


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## koala (Apr 30, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> One of the men executed yesterday was a schizophrenic man from Brazil



DW there has been talk that he was not schizophrenic and it was reported as an act ???????


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## WhatInThe (May 1, 2015)

Old saying-If you can't do the time don't do the crime. In Indonesia the penalty could be eternity.

 I'm not the biggest fan of the death penalty but this is another country with their own laws. These criminals decided to go to Indonesia. These criminals decided to go into the illegal drug smuggling business. Were these criminals friends & family protesting Indonesia's drug laws prior to being arrested or seeing other drug smugglers being executed?


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## Warrigal (May 1, 2015)

koala said:


> DW there has been talk that he was not schizophrenic and it was reported as an act ???????



Talk? I would expect some of that but is it well founded ? 

His medical records suggest a long term problem 



> His lawyer, Ricky Gunawan, lodged a request for a judicial review into his case on Monday and an appeal in the Administrative Court on Tuesday.
> His legal team have 22 documents relating to his mental illness and are baffled that this was not brought up by his previous lawyers during Gularte's trial.



Do records exist showing that he has not been diagnosed/treated for mental problems since his arrest? I wouldn't be too quick to listen to talk back radio on this one.


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