# Elderly attitude: "If I die, I die"



## Sunny (Jul 11, 2020)

From today's paper:

The effects of covid-19 are most devastating for older people, with a 30 percent death rate among people over 85 in the United States who develop it. Many in that age group are sheltering in place and skipping social events in an effort to avoid the virus that causes the disease, and younger family members have often stayed away or gotten coronavirus tests before seeing them, to protect them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...0aa6e8-bd7b-11ea-bdaf-a129f921026f_story.html


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## garyt1957 (Jul 11, 2020)

After a certain age, I get it. You've lived your life and now at an advanced age you're stuck in the house. Lots of older folks have no family around and they shouldn't be visiting anyway. It's not much of a life and they may feel the loss isn't that great. My Dad is 96. Used to go to the senior center to play cards, the casino and bingo. All that's shut down. He hasn't been out of the house more than 3-4 times in 4 months. He's bored to death. If something was open he'd risk it and I can't say I blame him.


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## Red Cinders (Jul 11, 2020)

I can't read the article because of a paywall, but the link is self-explanatory.  I do worry a little about my 83-year-old mother.  After home for about 3 weeks at the beginning, she started going out again most days.  She wears her mask, but sometimes she tells me a store has been crowded. Fortunately, she is in exceptional health and gets around like a much younger woman.  The way she sees it, at her age, she doesn't know how long she has left on this earth and doesn't want to spend it all locked up at her home.  She has surprised me because she has always been on the scary side.


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## Robert59 (Jul 11, 2020)

This girlfriend of mine goes out in public  without a mask most of the time and been everywhere here lately. Manic high. What I fear is she will get the virus and bring it home. In her mind she can do anything. She can't sit still and she's 68 years old.


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## chic (Jul 11, 2020)

I have a ninety year old relative who is talking about self deliverance because his life has lost all meaning in these past few months. I can't blame him or comfort him. At his age, one deserves better and everything he enjoyed doing he can't do because of the virus.


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## win231 (Jul 11, 2020)

Many people consider humans to be the most precious thing on the planet & as such, we're not supposed to ever die, so we react with shock & surprise when an elderly person (or a younger person who is suffering) says, "I've had enough."
We don't let our pets suffer, but we think we should - to our last breath.  We're not designed to live forever.  Nothing is.


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## PopsnTuff (Jul 11, 2020)

I've said it many times before here and on other forums.....legalize euthanasia without all the restrictions and not only for terminally ill folks.


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## Butterfly (Jul 11, 2020)

I can't read the article either because of the paywall.

As I see it, if these elder folks are not cooperating with restrictions and get sick because of it, they are not the only ones who will pay for their carelessness.  They could take the virus to their families, their caretakers, etc.  Though I strongly believe we do have the right to end our lives as we see fit, I don't believe we have the right to endanger others as we do so.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 11, 2020)

Anyone that says I have lived long enough so screw this virus needs to talk to a medical worker that has watched how grotesque the virus dying process is. I believe in avoiding misery in living as well as in dying. We don't have to be young to be stupid.


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## Pepper (Jul 11, 2020)

Red Cinders said:


> She has surprised me because she has always been on the scary side.


Now that's interesting.  How so?


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## Sunny (Jul 11, 2020)

Sorry about that, I forgot about their paywall. Here's the article, which I copied and pasted, minus the headline and pictures, which were too big.

Tara Bahrampour

July 10, 2020 at 6:02 p.m. ED

When the pandemic began, Darcy Scott worried most about her parents, who are in their 80s and among the most vulnerable to the coronavirus. To keep them safe, her brother drove them 27 hours from Kerrville, Tex., to Churchton, Md., where Scott and her husband were hunkered down.

But after a couple of months, Texas started to open up and her parents wanted to go home. Scott’s brother drove them back, and since then, she has watched with growing dread as her parents have resumed many of their regular activities even as the infection rates there have climbed.

“Mom went back to the gym, to aqua aerobics. Dad went out to pick up the recycling around town,” Scott said. “So there you go, we expended 11 weeks of our lives, and now our parents are wading around in a cesspool of germs.”

The effects of covid-19 are most devastating for older people, with a 30 percent death rate among people over 85 in the United States who develop it. Many in that age group are sheltering in place and skipping social events in an effort to avoid the virus that causes the disease, and younger family members have often stayed away or gotten coronavirus tests before seeing them, to protect them.

Some fear covid-19's emotional trauma will have lasting effects for health-care workers
Health-care workers said they're experiencing feelings of despair fighting the novel coronavirus. Mental health experts fear they could suffer "moral injury." (Whitney Leaming, Jorge Ribas/The Washington Post)

But others have taken a more relaxed attitude, engaging in behavior that fills their middle-aged children with terror, for both their parents’ health and their own.

Various factors are contributing to this generational divide. Older people in the United States are statistically more likely than younger generations to listen to conservative media and to politicians who have played down the dangers of the virus, and some may have followed their lead. Others may be well aware of the risks but have weighed them against the mental and physical benefits of maintaining exercise and social routines.

(To be continued)


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## Sunny (Jul 11, 2020)

Whatever the reasons, the dynamic can leave middle-aged people, many of whom may already be worried about their adult children going to protests or beach gatherings, feeling that they must also parent their parents.

“They were thinking about coming up north for the summer, and they told me they were going to fly, and I told them I thought that was a bad idea,” said New York City resident Karyn Grossman Gershon, 58, whose 88- and 85-year-old parents were in Florida when the country shut down. They ended up driving to the New York area.

“I then heard that my mother has been getting her hair done, and that made me crazy. She said, ‘The [hairstylist] is healthy, and I’m healthy, and all the people he’s seeing are healthy.’ ”



That didn’t reassure Grossman Gershon, who along with her partner has strictly limited social contacts and trips to the grocery store.

Millions of U.S. grandparents care for young kids - and are high risk for covid-19



W.J. and Betty Scott watch television during their stay with their daughter Darcy Scott at her Churchton, Md., home during the pandemic.

Scott, in Maryland, worries her parents don’t see themselves as vulnerable.

“They don’t believe the virus doesn’t exist, they just don’t believe it will happen to them,” she said. “It’s that sense of invincibility that I think people who make it into their 80s get — ‘I’ve made it this far when people around me have dropped like flies.’ ”


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## Sunny (Jul 11, 2020)

Her father, W.J. Scott, 80, said he appreciates his daughter’s concern but thinks she’s being “a little bit of a mother hen.

“Let’s face it, I’m 80 years old and I don’t have a whole lot to lose in the end anyway. It’s just at what level you’re willing to take your edge. I’m a Marine. I was in Vietnam, people shot at me, so this isn’t that much more dangerous than that, I don’t think.”

Even when older people do understand the risks, it may not terrify them as much, said Laura Carstensen, director of the Stanford Center on Longevity. “Older people in general experience less stress in everyday life,” she said, adding that surveys show that older people are doing just as well now as in pre-coronavirus times.

“They absolutely see themselves at risk, [but] there is lots of evidence that as people come to the end of their life, they come to live in the present and they stop worrying about the what-ifs,” she said.

Worried about a second wave of coronavirus? We’re still in the first.

As states reopen and more tests are conducted, coronavirus cases continue to ravage the U.S. The Post spoke with experts to determine what wave we’re in. (Video: Adriana Usero, Allie Caren/Photo: Sarah Hashemi/The Washington Post)

Bill Thomas, a geriatrician and founder of ChangingAging.org, agreed, saying he has seen many examples of this kind of intergenerational conflict over covid-19 precautions and thinks it’s not so much because older people feel invincible but rather the opposite.

“As we get older, we are more likely to lose the illusion of immortality compared to younger people,” he said. “Older people are more likely to be living with the awareness that they are in fact mortal and they have a limited amount of time left. Many older people are more conscious of weighing the risk-benefit based on the knowledge that they’re not going to be around much longer. So you make some different calculations than younger people.”

People in their 50s and 60s tend to still be invested in maximizing their life span, Thomas said. “The 80-plus, they’re the real lions of the human race. They’ve seen more, done more, and a lot of times may be more realistic about their end-of-life prospects.”

JoAnn Schaffer, 89, of Shaker Heights, Ohio, dons masks when she goes out and avoids in-person shopping, but she recently had her hairdresser come to her house and hosted a bridge party on her patio — much to her 62-year-old daughter’s chagrin.

“I have a different perspective,” she said. “I’m old, and if I die, I die. If it’s going to kill someone, let it happen to the older people. I’ve lived my life.”

Her hairdresser wore a mask, and they opened the windows. As for the bridge players, “we took our masks off. There was a beautiful breeze. These are people I’ve known for 30 years, and they’re clean.”


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## Sunny (Jul 11, 2020)

Her daughter, Ann Schaffer Shirreffs of Cleveland, said she knows she can’t tell her mother what to do: “At this point, she’s almost 90 years old, and if she wants to get together with three other ladies and sit less than six feet from each other and handle the cards, what can I say? There’s nothing I can say.” Still, she said, “I lose sleep over it.”

Thomas cautioned against young people trying to change older parents’ activities: “It’s a really ageist presumption on the part of these 60-year-old children that they get to tell their parents what to do. They get to do whatever they want. My message to the 60-year-olds is: Get over it. Let them live their life. Part of being an adult or a grown-up is you have the right to do stupid things . . . but that person has to accept the consequences — young people aren’t going to want to be around you.”

A health commissioner's fight to help his county and his own family

Health commissioner Roland Walker of Gary, Ind., found himself struggling to get coronavirus tests for his county, then his own parents fell ill. (Zoeann Murphy, Ashleigh Joplin/The Washington Post)

But Sepideh Sedghi, 51, of Beverly Hills, Calif., can’t avoid her parents — she lives with them in a condominium building — and she has underlying health concerns of her own.

“I think they were more paranoid in the beginning and now have become more lax,” she said. “There’s been this desire to maybe play backgammon or cards with one of our neighbors. My mom has been saying, why don’t we go somewhere for Fourth of July? And I’ve had to explain that even though much of the country is opening up, they’re older. . . . So every day is an explanation of how and why and why not.

“My dad has this attitude of he survived World War II, cholera, typhus epidemic, the Islamic revolution, and he’s not going to be taken down by corona,” she added.

For isolated older people, pandemic is a ‘cruel event at this time in our lives’

In some cases, adult children have come to a kind of peace with their parents’ relative lack of concern.



Jane Daych is the reigning cornhole champion at her assisted-living facility, the Hearth at Tuxis Pond, in Madison, Conn. (Kathy True)

Dana Faulkner of Chevy Chase, Md., realizes that, thanks to the pandemic, she may not see her mother again. Her mother, whom Faulkner describes as “an outdoors person,” is 92 and in an assisted-living facility in Connecticut. Faulkner recently returned from a trip there during which she was able to visit her mother, Jane Daych, by waving up to her third-floor window.The facility was barring visitors and prohibiting outings off-site aside from essential medical appointments, but her mother “instantly takes the mask off whenever she can, though the aide tries to get her to wear it.” She also walks through common areas of her building to go out for daily walks on the grounds, a level of risk some in the facility aren’t taking.

Faulkner has a background in public health and knows that if her mother developed covid-19, there would be a good chance she would not survive: “At her age and as a diabetic, her risk factors are off the charts in a facility where there have been confirmed cases of the virus.”

But the last time they saw each other before Faulkner returned to Maryland, her mother insisted on a hug.

Faulkner hesitated, then hugged her mother.

“Afterward, I was like, ‘Oh, my God, this was really a transgression,’ ” she said.

Then she thought about it some more. If this was going to be her mother’s last summer on earth, maybe the most important thing to her was to get out and breathe the fresh air.

“I would say her impulse to be outside and to enjoy the world while she has it is instinctive rather than analytical,” she said. “There isn’t a big fear factor going on — she seems to be pretty calm about the whole thing. . . . She said she had a dream in which the Lord was holding the door open for her, saying, ‘Jane, I’m here, the door’s open whenever you’re ready.’ ”

Is Faulkner glad they hugged?

“I am,” she said. “I am.”

(End of article)


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> These are people I’ve known for 30 years, and they’re clean.”



I know many people that believe in the above statement or something very similar and IMO that type of thinking can get you or the people you love killed.


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## Red Cinders (Jul 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Now that's interesting.  How so?


Pepper, she has always been very scared that someone would break into the house.  She was the same even when my father was alive.  It has never happened and she has always lived in safe rural areas.  If she hears of one bad freaky criminal incident, she takes it to heart.


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## 911 (Jul 11, 2020)

I once thought like many of you do, but I was younger. Then, my favorite uncle came down with IBM disease, or Inclusion Body Myositis. He wasn’t taking his medicine regularly, so I would give him hell. He was 81 when he got it and his viewpoint was, “If I die, I die. I’ve lived a good life and am ready to move on.”

I told him, “Well, what about me, your wife and kids and other friends and relatives?” He asked what about them. I had to tell him that we would all miss him. I, we, need you here with us. He finally began taking his medicine regularly for the next 3 years, but then the disease advanced. He couldn’t swallow food, so he had a feeding tube. He couldn’t walk and had to take his scooter everywhere he went.

I went home after our last visit. I thought and thought about it. It was a really bad day. I finally agreed with him. It was time to let go. 4 months later, he died.


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## Robert59 (Jul 11, 2020)

It's not dying that is bad it's the way people die from the virus.  Been told by a doctor the virus makes people bleed out of nose and they can't breath.


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## Warrigal (Jul 11, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I can't read the article either because of the paywall.
> 
> As I see it, if these elder folks are not cooperating with restrictions and get sick because of it, they are not the only ones who will pay for their carelessness.  They could take the virus to their families, their caretakers, etc.  Though I strongly believe we do have the right to end our lives as we see fit, I don't believe we have the right to endanger others as we do so.



This is my thinking too. At 77, if I catch the virus it would probably be the end of me and in any case I think I would refuse heroic efforts to prolong my life. However, if I should get it then most likely my husband would also become infected and we would die separately and alone. Our families would feel this terribly and some of them may also become sick. Responsibility for the welfare of others doesn't leave us just because we have grown old.


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## Judycat (Jul 11, 2020)

That's fine as long as they aren't shoving their way into the ER demanding care when they can't catch their breath.


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## Kayelle (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm 76, and Bowmore is 83. The way I see it, I'm not afraid of death but I'm indeed afraid of suffering while I die. Given a choice, I'd like to go to sleep after my nightly prayers and just not wake up. Since I think I'm a reasonable person with some brains I will do everything in my power to keep from getting this curse and dying a miserable death trying to breathe.  I'm banking on science having a vaccine before I die of something else, because we both still have a heck of a lot of living to do.


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## Kayelle (Jul 12, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> This is my thinking too. At 77, if I catch the virus it would probably be the end of me and in any case I think I would refuse heroic efforts to prolong my life. However, if I should get it then most likely my husband would also become infected and we would die separately and alone. Our families would feel this terribly and some of them may also become sick.* Responsibility for the welfare of others doesn't leave us just because we have grown old.*



Very well said, and I would add that all of us taught our children from the start to be responsible and accountable for their actions. We stop being parents now and eat our words to them? That's not how I want them to remember me for sure.


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## StarSong (Jul 12, 2020)

Judycat said:


> That's fine as long as they aren't shoving their way into the ER demanding care when they can't catch their breath.


I was thinking the same thing.  It's easy to say that you're ok with dying from this virus, but when confronted with the agony of being unable to breathe it's another matter entirely.


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## Sunny (Jul 12, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I know many people that believe in the above statement or something very similar and IMO that type of thinking can get you or the people you love killed.



Yes, the insidious thing about this awful disease is that people can be carriers, spreading it around to one and all, without having a single symptom.

I was invited by some neighbors to join them in a bridge game. I love playing bridge and really miss it, but I politely declined. So they look healthy? So what? For that matter, how do I know that I am not carrying the virus?

But it is a miserable choice. For people in, say, their 90's, the way we are forced to live now may be all the "living" they will have from now on.  That's a hard fact to swallow.


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## rgp (Jul 12, 2020)

win231 said:


> Many people consider humans to be the most precious thing on the planet & as such, we're not supposed to ever die, so we react with shock & surprise when an elderly person (or a younger person who is suffering) says, "I've had enough."
> We don't let our pets suffer, but we think we should - to our last breath.  We're not designed to live forever.  Nothing is.




   Ah ... for once we agree !! First Keesha, now you....


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## rgp (Jul 12, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> I've said it many times before here and on other forums.....legalize euthanasia without all the restrictions and not only for terminally ill folks.




  I agree


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## Kayelle (Jul 12, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> This girlfriend of mine goes out in public  without a mask most of the time and been everywhere here lately. Manic high. What I fear is she will get the virus and bring it home. In her mind she can do anything. She can't sit still and she's 68 years old.



Good grief Robert, didn't you say that she will be soon having surgery and you're planning on helping her recover? If I were you, I'd never be around her again.  Her behavior would be absolute deal breaker for me.


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## LindaB (Jul 12, 2020)

My sister who is 65 lives in one of the current "hotspots" in Florida. She doesn't use a mask and pooh-poohs anyone who does. Yesterday she went out to eat with 3 friends to a Chinese BUFFET no less! Smh.


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## Kayelle (Jul 12, 2020)

rgp said:


> I agree





PopsnTuff said:


> I've said it many times before here and on other forums.....legalize euthanasia without all the restrictions and not only for terminally ill folks.


I'm sure that many of us have a multitude of reasons to just as passionately disagree with you. I speak from experience from loosing someone very dear to me by self inflicted euthanasia.  I think the subject may deserve a thread of it's own, not related to the current topic . But that's just me.


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## Pappy (Jul 12, 2020)

I am 82 and not ready to say this. If I die, I die. Crap, I’m going to fight it as long as can. I’m having too much of a good time to feel like that.


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## 911 (Jul 12, 2020)

My sister died while having an asthma attack. I was with her at the time. I was trained in resuscitation and CPR, but could not save her. It took the EMS about 12 minutes to arrive, but she had been without oxygen for approximately 9 minutes. The EMS tech was able to insert a tracheal tube and get oxygen flowing, but she had gone into cardiac arrest and then needed shocked. There was more that went on, but the ultimate conclusion was that she did not survive.

My point is, if you have never seen a person struggle to get a breath of air, it’s a horrible thing to watch. While trying to grasp for air, she slowly began to turn blue. Thankfully, our mother wasn’t there to witness it.

I can only imagine what it’s like with this virus.


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## Pepper (Jul 12, 2020)

Kayelle said:


> I'm sure that many of us have multitude reasons to just as passionately disagree with you. I speak from experience from loosing someone very dear to me by *self inflicted euthanasia*.  I think the subject may deserve a thread of it's own, not related to the current topic . But that's just me.


Does that mean suicide?


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## Pappy (Jul 12, 2020)

911 said:


> My sister died while having an asthma attack. I was with her at the time. I was trained in resuscitation and CPR, but could not save her. It took the EMS about 12 minutes to arrive, but she had been without oxygen for approximately 9 minutes. The EMS tech was able to insert a tracheal tube and get oxygen flowing, but she had gone into cardiac arrest and then needed shocked. There was more that went on, but the ultimate conclusion was that she did not survive.
> 
> My point is, if you have never seen a person struggle to get a breath of air, it’s a horrible thing to watch. While trying to grasp for air, she slowly began to turn blue. Thankfully, our mother wasn’t there to witness it.
> 
> I can only imagine what it’s like with this virus.



If I have to give into fear, COPD is it. I’ve had it for several years and it gets worst over time. I watched my mom struggle to breath and it’s a scary thing. That’s why I’ll do every thing I can to prevent this virus, even if it means wearing a pail over my head. In short, if I catch it, it’s a death sentence for me. Getting morbid, aren’t I?


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## Pepper (Jul 12, 2020)

Pappy said:


> Getting morbid, aren’t I?


Yes, you are.  I've heard stories of people over 100 who beat this thing so cheer up!


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## Becky1951 (Jul 12, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Yes, you are.  I've heard stories of people over 100 who beat this thing so cheer up!


But did they have any preexisting health disorders?


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## Pepper (Jul 12, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> But did they have any preexisting health disorders?


Besides being over 100?


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## Kayelle (Jul 14, 2020)

Pappy said:


> If I have to give into fear, COPD is it. I’ve had it for several years and it gets worst over time. I watched my mom struggle to breath and it’s a scary thing. That’s why I’ll do every thing I can to prevent this virus, even if it means wearing a pail over my head. In short, if I catch it, it’s a death sentence for me. Getting morbid, aren’t I?


I understand completely what Pappy is saying. No you are not getting morbid, but just telling it like it is. Morbid would be if you didn't want to fight for your life.
I also have COPD and a heart condition, so I do everything within my power to keep from getting this. This means not being able to see and be close to my family in person. That hurts my heart big time. The only people who I know what they are doing all the time is Bowmore and me.


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