# There are two basics facts which need to be accepted.



## Lavinia (Mar 26, 2022)

1) You cannot change the gender you are born with.

2) You cannot change your ethnicity.

If everyone just accepted those two biological facts and got on with their lives in the body that nature gave them, life would be much less complicated and confusing for all of us.


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## win231 (Mar 26, 2022)

Well.......I agree about not changing ethnicity, but I'm not so sure about gender.


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 26, 2022)

1. True.  Even if you change your appearance, your body does not fully function in a different gender.
2. It doesn't really matter where you were born, it's where you call home that matters.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> There are two basics facts which need to be accepted.​


Not sure I completely agree.

#1 - of course you cannot change your genetics, you will always be XX or XY.  However I have no problem with people who want to be viewed as a gender different from their genetics.  Not something I really understand, but I am happy to live and let live.  I know it does raise some problems when it comes to sports, no idea how that should be resolved.

#2 - Same thing, you can't change your genetics, but  you certainly can change your home and place of allegiance.  I consider people like Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, Alexander Hamilton, Levi Strauss, and Madeleine Albright to have been Americans...  Guess it kind of depends on how you define ethnicity.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

While I respect your opinion, the fact is that a person _can _change their gender; many, many have and more continue to do so. (I'm not using the more appropriate "sex" here because a person cannot change their chromosomes.) Not simply for those who were, as it is said, "born in the wrong body," but those born, for example, hermaphrodites or intersex.  What are they supposed to do?  Ignore the fact they can be helped (if they choose to) in favor of "nature?"  I mean, that _is _or _those are_ the sex(s) they were born with.

A person cannot change their chromosones, but they can certainly change their gender.  And why shouldn't they?  Every person has the right to feel comfortable and happy in their own skin.


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## hollydolly (Mar 26, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> 1. True.  Even if you change your appearance, your body does not fully function in a different gender.
> 2. *It doesn't really matter where you were born, it's where you call home that matters.*


true, being born in a stable doesn't make you a donkey


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Not sure I completely agree.
> 
> #1 - of course you cannot change your genetics, you will always be XX or XY.  However I have no problem with people who want to be viewed as a gender different from their genetics.  Not something I really understand, but I am happy to live and let live.  I know it does raise some problems when it comes to sports, no idea how that should be resolved.
> 
> #2 - Same thing, you can't change your genetics, but  you certainly can change your home and place of allegiance.  I certainly consider people like Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, Levi Strauss, and Madeleine Albright Americans...  Guess it kind of depends on how you define ethnicity.


Our posts popped up at nearly the same time here, @Alligatorob.

This is from dictionairy.com (which I normally avoid - dictionairies defs. I mean, because I'm descriptive as opposed to prescriptive and understand the fluidity of language, but I like the way this particular definition acknowledges this.

_An ethnicity is a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, or language. It also refers to a person's ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association. Like race, the meaning and use of the word ethnicity has changed over the last few centuries.Jul 31, 2020_

It seems similar to gender in that you can probably change it, change all the trappings, including physically altering your body, but of course, cannot change your genetics.


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## Ronni (Mar 26, 2022)

I disagree.

 There’s a vast difference between chromosomal distribution, and gender identity 

Similar vast differences between the geographical location in which you were born/social group you were born into, and one’s allegiances or practices.

One’s ****** organs or chromosomes don’t define gender any more than skin color or facial features defines ethnicity.

These are surface trappings. It’s like saying all vegetables that are green must be broccoli and all fruits that are orange must be carrots.

Have you (the general you not the OP specifically) never felt comfortable in your own skin? I most certainly have, for example when I was 40 pounds heavier than I am now. When I was living by my ex’s strict rules and edicts and made to confirm to a behavior and lifestyle that was foreign to me.  At those times in my life, there was a constant low hum of thought, a repeating refrain of “this is not who I am, who is this person I’ve become?” etc. 

I realize this is different from the gender and ethnicity questions, but there are enough similarities (to me anyway) that they may spark some additional conversation.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

Medusa said:


> An ethnicity is a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, or language. It also refers to a person's ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association. Like race, the meaning and use of the word ethnicity has changed over the last few centuries.Jul 31, 2020


Thanks @Medusa, that is helpful.  If we defined ethnicity by genetics then there really are no Americans, we all came from somewhere else.  Even the Native Americans, just further into the past.  I know my origins are Irish/Scottish/English, and so on.  However I certainly consider myself American ethnically.  Genetics have nothing to do with it...


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 26, 2022)

I don't have to understand it.
All I have to do is accept it.

_"It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are." _- e.e. cummings


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## oldpeculier (Mar 26, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Not sure I completely agree.
> 
> #1 - of course you cannot change your genetics, you will always be XX or XY.  However I have no problem with people who want to be viewed as a gender different from their genetics.  Not something I really understand, but I am happy to live and let live. * I know it does raise some problems when it comes to sports, no idea how that should be resolved.*


One often hears the word "fair" these days. Males that for whatever reason, or way, now declaring to be female should not be allowed to compete in female sports, IMO. 

Suggest competition to exist exclusively between and against those who view their gender different from their genetics. That would be fair.


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## fuzzybuddy (Mar 26, 2022)

It depends on how you look at what is a "male" and what is a "female". It's very simple if you only check between the legs. But humans aren't simple. We come with all kinds of gender self-identification processes, just as determining as gon
There are facts, but the interpretation of those facts is altered by understanding other facts, and their relationship to one another.
And if sports competitions are segregating by " male", and "female", they should determine exactly what they mean by that


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## Nathan (Mar 26, 2022)

A common google search result is: "The brain is our biggest sex organ". So what the brain has detected as it's gender identification or preference *matters *a lot, irregardless of actual genetic attributes.  Both males and females have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, in varying amounts.  The fetus starts as a "generic", "blank" until a second X or a Y chromosome is attached.  Ever wonder why males have nipples?  
Yes, the primary reason creatures(and plants!) have a gender is for procreation, but in higher developed species like humans, the mind has a major role in the administration of it's gender identification.   Studies have suggested that in times of stress(environmental, food availability, species over-population) a portion of in utero embryos acquire a greater leaning toward becoming homo ******, thus reducing the breading population.


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## horseless carriage (Mar 26, 2022)

Ronni said:


> I disagree.
> 
> There’s a vast difference between chromosomal distribution, and gender identity
> 
> ...


Quite right Ronni, nature can be unforgiving at times, A hermaphrodite is a person (or plant or animal) that has both male and female ****** organs. Hermaphrodites are rare. It's an unusual word for an unusual condition: The term derives from the Latin: hermaphroditus, from Ancient Greek: hermaphroditos, the son of Hermes and Aphrodite in Greek mythology. This happens to a small number of people who have the reproductive organs of both men and women.


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## Chet (Mar 26, 2022)

If you are born with a womb you are a woman, and a male with a male member. It's not complicated, but who knows what's going on in a person's mind anymore with the proliferation of drugs.


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## win231 (Mar 26, 2022)

Chet said:


> If you are born with a womb you are a woman, and a male with a male member. It's not complicated.


That's right.  The only thing that can be changed is the appearance.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's right. The only thing that can be changed is the appearance.


Yep, someone could identify as a grapefruit, but the surgery would be more difficult...


No disrespect meant, I will use whatever pronoun people want and not be judgmental about it.


Aunt Bea said:


> I don't have to understand it.
> All I have to do is accept it.


Well said!


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## Don M. (Mar 26, 2022)

Transgender Men competing in Women's sports is becoming a concern....and rightly so, IMO.  

https://news.yahoo.com/women-apos-group-ceo-dissects-182252197.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall


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## horseless carriage (Mar 26, 2022)

Read this story, about a spitfire pilot who became a woman and fell in love with a woman who was once a man. 

Think I need to go and have a lay down.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 26, 2022)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't have to understand it.
> All I have to do is accept it.
> 
> _"It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are." _- e.e. cummings


 Aunt Bea, I agree with you 100%


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2022)

Of course you can change your ethnicity. People do it all the time, when they change their allegiance from one country to another, and become citizens of a different place.

Gender?  I have problems accepting that. And the sports question is a doozy.  Should a big, huge, powerful man who transitions into a "woman" be allowed to compete in women's sports?

Maybe there should be a third type of team that permits male, female, or transitioned (in either direction) people to compete.


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## OneEyedDiva (Mar 26, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> It depends on how you look at what is a "male" and what is a "female". It's very simple if you only check between the legs. But humans aren't simple. We come with all kinds of gender self-identification processes, just as determining as gon
> There are facts, but the interpretation of those facts is altered by understanding other facts, and their relationship to one another.
> And if sports competitions are segregating by " male", and "female", they should determine exactly what they mean by that


What if someone has both genitalia between his/her legs? I have a friend who is intersex (the old term is hermaphrodite). It took her mother a long time to tell her that. Perhaps the male part of her anatomy wasn't that pronounced or perhaps she didn't realize everyone wasn't built like her. But the catalyst that triggered her finding out was her wondering why she couldn't have children. Also she had been married. Although we are friends, I never asked how her ex-husband responded to her anatomical anomaly. @Chet

BTW there are others out there in my friend's situation. When my son was in the hospital about 46 years ago, there was a baby there who was a hermaphrodite. I heard the nurses talking about it. Also a couple of decades ago, I saw a special about it. Parents have the right to choose which gender they want their child to be and surgeries are performed when the child is young. Some on the special program I saw felt their parents made the wrong choice and they suffered for it.
@Pecos


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Should a big, huge, powerful man who transitions into a "woman" be allowed to compete in women's sports?


Probably not, it is interesting that we all focus on this problem.  Only a small percentage of transgender people are active in sports at a level high enough for it to matter.

The gym I go to has a clientele of about 80% young women.  Watching them and comparing makes it pretty clear that should I decide to identify as one of them they'd be quite safe, I can't keep up, LOL!  

I've been weigh lifting pretty consistently for a couple of years now and feel like I have really improved, and I have.  I can tell you that many of the young ladies, who do not look at all muscular, can out lift me on many things.  Other exercises I fair even worse.  When it comes to the occasional yoga class I go to it's embarrassing, I mostly serve the purpose of being someone others can compare to and feel good about themselves...  

On the other hand they are all quite friendly and nice to me, don't know where else I can go and have so many pretty ladies who know my name and seem to be happy to see me.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> A common google search result is: "The brain is our biggest sex organ". So what the brain has detected as it's gender identification or preference *matters *a lot, irregardless of actual genetic attributes.  Both males and females have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, in varying amounts.  The fetus starts as a "generic", "blank" until a second X or a Y chromosome is attached.  Ever wonder why males have nipples?
> Yes, the primary reason creatures(and plants!) have a gender is for procreation, but in higher developed species like humans, the mind has a major role in the administration of it's gender identification.   Studies have suggested that in times of stress(environmental, food availability, species over-population) a portion of in utero embryos acquire a greater leaning toward becoming homo ******, thus reducing the breading population.


_Studies have suggested that in times of stress(environmental, food availability, species over-population) a portion of in utero embryos acquire a greater leaning toward becoming homo ******, thus reducing the breading population._

@Nathan, I would love to read that as it sounds fascinating.  Would you mind sending me a link (here or my profile) if you still have it, please?


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> What if someone has both genitalia between his/her legs? I have a friend who is intersex (the old term is hermaphrodite). It took her mother a long time to tell her that. Perhaps the male part of her anatomy wasn't that pronounced or perhaps she didn't realize everyone wasn't built like her. But the catalyst that triggered her finding out was her wondering why she couldn't have children. Also she had been married. Although we are friends, I never asked how her ex-husband responded to her anatomical anomaly.


I'm not sure of the solidness of this source, but I did find this explanaton interesting:

_Main Difference – Hermaphrodite vs Intersex
Hermaphrodite and intersex are two conditions where an organism displays both male and female characteristics. The main difference between hermaphrodite and intersex is that hermaphrodite is an organism possessing both types of gonads whereas intersex is an organism possessing several sex characteristics of both male and females such as chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones or genitals. Though the two terms, hermaphrodite and intersex are used synonymously in the last century, intersex is nowadays preferred over hermaphrodite. _
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-hermaphrodite-and-intersex/

I like your term, "anatomical anomaly."  It's softer and more inclusive.


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## fuzzybuddy (Mar 26, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> What if someone has both genitalia between his/her legs? I have a friend who is intersex (the old term is hermaphrodite). It took her mother a long time to tell her that. Perhaps the male part of her anatomy wasn't that pronounced or perhaps she didn't realize everyone wasn't built like her. But the catalyst that triggered her finding out was her wondering why she couldn't have children. Also she had been married. Although we are friends, I never asked how her ex-husband responded to her anatomical anomaly.


I'm not sure what you're commenting on. Being both sexes, or which sex you are for a male/female segregated competition.
In my little brain, I think a sex is like a computer. Genitals are the hard wired part, and software is the emotional, self aware part. Plus, this is a biological process, there will be a continuum of outcomes from X to Y, with about 80% falling in between. This goes for shoe sizes to being male/female.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's right.  The only thing that can be changed is the appearance.


Well... wombs, breasts and penises can be removed and changed.  It really comes down to chromosomes.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 26, 2022)

Can't change bone structure bone, muscle or tendon density nor hormone levels unless artificially medicating them.

This is why this transitioned female fighters can beat their opponents and break their bones.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/new...r-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight


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## win231 (Mar 26, 2022)

Don M. said:


> Transgender Men competing in Women's sports is becoming a concern....and rightly so, IMO.
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/women-apos-group-ceo-dissects-182252197.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall


There will always be people who try to get away with an unfair advantage.
Surprising that some even try.  There are separate world records for men & women for a reason.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

WhatInThe said:


> Can't change bone structure bone, muscle or tendon density nor hormone levels unless artificially medicating them.
> 
> This is why this transitioned female fighters can beat their opponents and break their bones.
> 
> https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/new...r-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight


You know that's an interesting aspect of the subject.  I wonder if it would be considering doping because of the hormones that are needed to make the transition.


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## Jeni (Mar 26, 2022)

The whole process.... if they are trying to change is not as easy or simple as they try to suggest.

I recently had the opportunity to read/ hear the story of a young woman.
She was in her words  confused and mentally distressed .... she began the process and had her breasts removed..... started taking the hormone regimen and that is when the trouble began ........
Many end up with severe heart/ kidney and liver issues from taking the opposite hormones...... this is true of almost all people starting to take the opposite sex hormones.
Having to stop the drugs she found counseling and now is hoping to recover her health enough to get implants to correct this as she put NIGHTMARE.   
 She begged anyone who listens to make sure if they know someone to get serious mental health help before making the errors she did... 
Never had it been so clear as to why so many attempt or even succeed committing suicide.


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## Nathan (Mar 26, 2022)

Medusa said:


> _Studies have suggested that in times of stress(environmental, food availability, species over-population) a portion of in utero embryos acquire a greater leaning toward becoming homo ******, thus reducing the breading population._
> I would love to read that as it sounds fascinating.  Would you mind sending me a link (here or my profile) if you still have it, please?


I had read that many years ago, I'll search for any follow-up studies.


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## john19485 (Mar 26, 2022)

I don't mind what people change in their life, Just quit trying to push into my life , where you have no bussiness.


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## Nathan (Mar 26, 2022)

Medusa said:


> _Studies have suggested that in times of stress(environmental, food availability, species over-population) a portion of in utero embryos acquire a greater leaning toward becoming homo ******, thus reducing the breading population._
> I would love to read that as it sounds fascinating.  Would you mind sending me a link (here or my profile) if you still have it, please?


Here's what I'm finding, so far:


> From a strictly Darwinian viewpoint, homosexuality shouldn't still be around. It isn't the best way to pass along one's genes, and to complicate the     picture further, no "gay genes" have even been identified.* According to a newly released hypothesis, the explanation may not lie in DNA itself. Instead, as an embryo develops, sex-related genes are turned on and off in response to fluctuating levels of hormones in the womb, produced by both mother and child.*     This tug of war benefits the unborn child, keeping male or female development on a steady course even amid spikes in hormones. But if these so-called     epigenetic changes persist once the child is born and has children of its own, some of those offspring may be homosexual, the study proposes.


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## Packerjohn (Mar 26, 2022)

And to think that Canada spent millions of dollars on building "gender neutral" toilets.  I don't know about you guys and gals, but when I go to the "little boy's room" I sure as hack don't try to peek over the stall to see what gender the next person to me is that is making all those awful noises.  Good Grief!

As for me, I have absolutely no problem with gender.  When I look for a bathroom, I look for the sign that says, MEN.  When in Mexico I always used the door that said, "Hombres."  Sometimes, in Mexico or Spain, I would see a sign that said, CABALLERO.  Boy, did I ever feel special and proud to enter that door.  That is because a Caballero is a Spanish knight, a gentleman and even a cavalier!  But I don't know what the Spanish for "gender neutral" would be?  Maybe down in sunny Mexico they don't worry abot such things.  Only in Canada; a pity!


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

john19485 said:


> I don't mind what people change in their life, Just quit trying to push into my life , where you have no bussiness.


Has that happened to you?


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> I don't know what the Spanish for "gender neutral" would be? Maybe down in sunny Mexico they don't worry abot such things.


Don't know the word either, but I had an interesting, kind of related, experience.

When I was young I used to travel in Mexico a lot, an interesting close by place that was very inexpensive.  I was in a bar one night, I was the only American in the place.  People were very nice to me by the way, I really enjoyed it. 

At that time the only women who went into bars like this one were prostitutes.  The "_bathroom_" consisted of a wall at the far end of the bar that you could urinate against. 

A person dressed as a woman, who I had assumed was a woman, walked up next to me at the wall/urinal, raised her skirt, and underneath she was no woman.  The guy on the other side of me saw my shock.  He poked me in the ribs and say laughingly "_un queer_". 

Not sure that was real Spanish, or quite what the lady/man considered her/himself.  What I did notice was that the folks in the bar were much more accepting of the person than we'd have been in the US.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> I had read that many years ago, I'll search for any follow-up studies.


I don't want to put you to any trouble over it; I just thought if you'd just read it and still had ready access.  No worries.  And thank you.


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## JonSR77 (Mar 26, 2022)

I remember a comedian talking about the right for gay people to be married.

He said, "I don't understand these people who hate gay folks and don't want them to be married.  If they REALLY hate them, they should LET them get married...then they will know what real torture is truly like!!!"


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## JonSR77 (Mar 26, 2022)

I wish I could say I understand the transgender issue, I don't. 

But this much I know...our entire society is WAY too fixated on sexuality.

Doesn't matter what your sexuality is, no matter what, it can only be a very small percentage of what makes your life worthwhile.

It seems like people think if they suddenly discover that they are a man or a woman, that is going to solve all their problems.

If you are a woman, who wants to become a man....I am already a man. Let me tell you the 9000 ways that being a man is no picnic, whatsoever.

I have no clue why someone would want to invest so much, in something that can only provide a bit of identity.


If you want real happiness in life...that goes to peace inside. And learning how to be happy and fulfilled. You can get some of that through counseling and through a spiritual search. But surgery is not going to provide that.

I never had those feelings. I don't know what that means. I want to be sympathetic to everyone. But I do know, that just becoming a man or just becoming a woman, is hardly going to solve all our life problems.


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## Medusa (Mar 26, 2022)

Jeni said:


> The whole process.... if they are trying to change is not as easy or simple as they try to suggest.
> 
> I recently had the opportunity to read/ hear the story of a young woman.
> She was in her words  confused and mentally distressed .... she began the process and had her breasts removed..... started taking the hormone regimen and that is when the trouble began ........
> ...


_"...this is true of almost all people starting to take the opposite sex hormones."_

This is true of_ anyone _taking hormone therapy, including the current 22% of postmenopausal women on HRT Therapy who must be more carefully monitored for breast and cervical cancers, increased risk of heart attack and stroke. etc. That's what medical monitoring is for.

I'm sorry for this poor confused woman, but it hardly speaks to an entire group of individuals.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> I wish I could say I understand the transgender issue, I don't.


I agree, but I did have a recent experience that has made me more accepting.

I grew up in the Bible Belt South (US) and learned that homosexuality was a prevision and evil, did not know transgender even existed until years later.  Its hard to shake the things you learn growing up. I am probably still not 100% comfortable with homosexuality.  However I do now know that's my problem not someone else's.  One thing that has helped is meeting gay people or finding out people I already knew were gay.  A quick and effective way to learn that they are just people like the rest of us.

Transgender is another thing, never really knew one, until recently.   A good friend of mine has/had a son, Charles.  I liked Charles but he was always withdrawn and not very communicative.  A couple of years ago  my friend called to tell me that she and her son would be passing by and wanted to come visit. 

My friend warned me that Charles was now Caz, a woman, and mostly done with the transition.  Have to say I was a bit shocked and apprehensive about the visit.  When they got here I found Caz a much more confident and communicative person than Charles ever was.  Actually someone I liked.  And she was pretty open in talking about the difficulties she had growing up in a small town in Wyoming.  An interesting person.

Same lesson again, just getting to know people like Caz makes a big difference in how I feel about it all.  Still harbor a bit of discomfort with the idea, though not with Caz.  Guess the thoughts of what the operation might do to someone like me are hard to shake, LOL.


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## Jules (Mar 26, 2022)

Jeni said:


> to get serious mental health help before making the errors she did...


Not sure how long ago this person was starting to transition, lots of counselling is required here before the doctors will accept you.  One of the grandkids is transitioning and seems very confident in the choice.  All the family can do is to give support or, as a minimum, not be negative.  There was a bit of that in the beginning.


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## Nathan (Mar 26, 2022)

Medusa said:


> I don't want to put you to any trouble over it; I just thought if you'd just read it and still had ready access.  No worries.  And thank you.


Not a problem, always interested in current genetics research.


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## Nathan (Mar 26, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> And to think that Canada spent millions of dollars on building "gender neutral" toilets.


As a former building maintenance mechanic I gotta say- "good riddance to urinals!"  Put a toilet in a little room, women can use it with the seat down, men can use it with the seat up(or down).  Case closed!


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## JonSR77 (Mar 26, 2022)

whatever is going on, these people do suffer quite a bit.  and that is enormously disturbing...


Transgender people and suicide

Transgender (trans) people face unique stressors, including the stress some trans people experience when their gender identity is not affirmed. Trans people also experience higher rates of discrimination and harassment than their cisgender counterparts and, as a result, experience poorer mental health outcomes. They are also at a greater risk for suicide as they are twice as likely to think about and attempt suicide than LGB people (Haas et al., 2011; McNeill et al., 2017; Irwin et al., 2014).

https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/trans-fact-sheet/​


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## JonSR77 (Mar 26, 2022)

PFLAG - Counseling for the LGBTQ+ community (by the LGBTQ+ community)...

*PFLAG* is the United States' first and largest organization uniting parents, families, and allies with people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ+). PFLAG National is the national organization, which provides support to the PFLAG network of local chapters. PFLAG has over 400 chapters across the United States, with more than 200,000 members and supporters.

https://pflag.org/

PFLAG does also have some international chapters:

https://pflag.org/intlfamilygroups


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## Alligatorob (Mar 26, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> Trans people also experience higher rates of discrimination and harassment than their cisgender counterparts and, as a result, experience poorer mental health outcomes. They are also at a greater risk for suicide as they are twice as likely to think about and attempt suicide than LGB people


Interesting study.  

Do you suppose those who have the feelings but don't make the transitions fare any better.  Denying yourself is pretty stressful as well.  I think it would be a useful statistic for anyone contemplating the transition.  Is it likely to make me better or worse.

As I said I don't understand this much at all, but reading this thread has helped, a little anyway.


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## Jeni (Mar 26, 2022)

Jules said:


> Not sure how long ago this person was starting to transition, lots of counselling is required here before the doctors will accept you.  One of the grandkids is transitioning and seems very confident in the choice.  All the family can do is to give support or, as a minimum, not be negative.  There was a bit of that in the beginning.


she is in Finland but this was within last 18 months........... People in her words did not provide the counseling i always thought was part of the plan..as well from her standpoint to many just cheerleaders in process not making the person look deeper.
Wish i could find a way to copy her story to share as it was alarming.
Makes me wonder ...because this would NOT be the first time ...the process did not work as it is suppose to.


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## chic (Mar 27, 2022)

The gender issue is becoming an albatross. If our chromosomes don't determine our sex I don't know what does.  I'm XX. This makes me a woman and no one, no matter how much they might wish to be XX can be a woman if they were born XY. They are biological males.


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## old medic (Mar 27, 2022)

john19485 said:


> I don't mind what people change in their life, Just quit trying to push into my life , where you have no bussiness.


Well said, I just hope you dont offend anyone


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## ronaldj (Mar 27, 2022)

"they plucked their eyebrows and shaved their legs and he was a she and said, hey, babe take a walk on the wild side., and the colored girls said do ta do do ta doodoo dootoadootoa..

or


I not dumb but I can't understand why she walks like a woman and talks like a man, said my Lola,L O L A Lola...


sorry my head is full of old odd rock songs...


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## squatting dog (Mar 27, 2022)




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## drifter (Mar 27, 2022)

I was all prepared to slap my answer down and move on, but after reading some of your answers
I decided to hold off writing my answer, that the question was not so simple and probably over my head.


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## Leann (Mar 27, 2022)

Until recently I hadn't considered the concept of changing one's ethnicity. But I read about several people that strongly identified to ethnicities to which they did not belong.

As to changing one's gender, I have a sense of compassion for those who feel they were born to the wrong gender. Genotypically (at the level of our genes), gender change can't occur. However, phenotypically (how we look) can change.


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## Remy (Mar 27, 2022)

Jeni said:


> The whole process.... if they are trying to change is not as easy or simple as they try to suggest.
> 
> I recently had the opportunity to read/ hear the story of a young woman.
> She was in her words  confused and mentally distressed .... she began the process and had her breasts removed..... started taking the hormone regimen and that is when the trouble began ........
> ...


I was thinking along this line for some. I don't think it speaks for all. I started watching a channel on YouTube started by a guy who was at Evergreen State College in Olympia WA when they had those student "protests." (hive mentality break with reality IMO) but anyway, for some reason he has also interviewed people who have been trans and de-transitioned. I really really feel bad for the ones who had taken hormones. It appears to have permanently changed their bodies and voices.

One woman who gratefully didn't take hormones but started to identify as male had been sexually abused as a child. Some of these people need extensive counseling but it appears some just want to do the virtue signaling support and not look at possible underlying causes.

I don't think this is true for all of coarse but for some.


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## dseag2 (Mar 27, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> 1) You cannot change the gender you are born with.
> 
> 2) You cannot change your ethnicity.
> 
> If everyone just accepted those two biological facts and got on with their lives in the body that nature gave them, life would be much less complicated and confusing for all of us.


Others have been very courteous in their responses re: your claim in #1.  I will not be so courteous.  Every post from you is negative and offensive and I will gladly challenge you re: changing gender.  There are many who feel they are born in the wrong body and see the need to change gender to feel better about themselves.  Good for them.

Between your disparaging comments about America and now this, I will continue to call you out on your posts.  They are only meant to create controversy.


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## Shalimar (Mar 27, 2022)

*Many times I have sat in my office trying to console family members or friends who have lost a transgender person to suicide, or, occasionally, to homicide. This world can be very cruel, (although Canada is less transphobic than most countries.) Breaks my heart, and fills me with outrage every single time. *


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 27, 2022)

What’s the downside if these “two basic facts that _need_ to be accepted” are not accepted? Also, who needs to accept them and why? There are people who don’t accept that the earth is a sphere. Look up The Flat Earth Society. Good luck convincing others that they need to accept anything at all. I’d be interested to know how that works out. I may change my species identity from porcine to bovine just because I can. And if I do, you don’t have to accept it but that doesn’t make it any less real to me. I’d love to change the world but I don’t know what to do. I just know how to change me. Moo!  ~


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## mrstime (Mar 27, 2022)

Don M. said:


> Transgender Men competing in Women's sports is becoming a concern....and rightly so, IMO.
> 
> https://news.yahoo.com/women-apos-group-ceo-dissects-182252197.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall


When men are given large amounts of female hormones they lose muscle mass and strength. So it doesn't bother me when a trans competes in women's sports.


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## win231 (Mar 28, 2022)

mrstime said:


> When men are given large amounts of female hormones they lose muscle mass and strength. So it doesn't bother me when a trans competes in women's sports.


But the amount of muscle & strength they lose can vary with the doses of female hormones they take.  They can appear female & they would still have an unfair advantage.


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## chic (Mar 28, 2022)

win231 said:


> But the amount of muscle & strength they lose can vary with the doses of female hormones they take.  They can appear female & they would still have an unfair advantage.


I agree and they don't really "appear" female either. This problem of allowing biological males who identify as female freedom to compete in female sports could destroy said sports. If a man goes through puberty as a biological male, his bones will be longer and denser and his upper body strength could still overwhelm a female even if he is on hormone therapy. He will also be taller, very likely, especially if he is an athlete.

It sounds to me as though some men who fail in sports when competing against other men, have found a way to claim fame and wealth by growing their hair long, saying they are trans and competing with biological female in women's sports where they will always have an advantage. This does not make them female and I wish those with the authority to prevent this abuse would do so.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 28, 2022)

Don M. said:


> Transgender Men competing in Women's sports is becoming a concern...


If this were the only problem we'd be pretty close to ok.  It does not effect many people, most don't compete in sports at a level for it to matter.  

Seems to me to just be an easy target for attack and makes good press.  

The simplest thing would just be to define, for highly competitive sports only, gender by XX or XY, and then focus on the many more important issues.


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## Pepper (Mar 28, 2022)

chic said:


> It sounds to me as though some men who fail in sports when competing against other men, have found a way to claim fame and wealth by growing their hair long, saying they are trans and competing with biological female in women's sports where they will always have an advantage. This does not make them female and I wish those with the authority to prevent this abuse would do so.


If you're saying a man would cut off his best friend to win at sports you must be wrong.  It is deeper than that, for goodness sake.


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## Silent Rose (Mar 28, 2022)

As for the claim about changing ethnicity surely someone cannot change where there heritage is from, but certainly they can and have all the right to do as much research on a heritage if they please if that interests them to become a part of that heritage if they want. In my opinion that is really not hurting anyone and people should be more accepting to those things.

As for the second claim, I feel there are many people who feel they were born into this world as the wrong gender and this circumstance has made life for these people quite difficult to live an enjoyable life. This being said, I feel everyone has the right to live out their lives the way that they feel will make them happy. Whether that be changing ones gender then that is what it will be. I myself, don't fully understand that because my mindset has never felt dissatisfied about the gender I am. That is certainly not the case for many people.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Not a problem, always interested in current genetics research.


That, in and of itself, is an interesting sentence.  LOL  

I saw a post wherein you'd found some information and I meant to go back and read it, but the day took a downturn and now I've lost it and am not savvy enough with the SF controls. When you have a moment, @Nathan, would you mind sending it to my profile, pretty please? And thank you. 

Genetics, eugenics... cannabalism, et al, interests me as well.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

chic said:


> The gender issue is becoming an albatross. If our chromosomes don't determine our sex I don't know what does.  I'm XX. This makes me a woman and no one, no matter how much they might wish to be XX can be a woman if they were born XY. They are biological males.


While I agree with you and you're absolutely right, you're talking about a person's sex, not gender.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

john19485 said:


> I don't mind what people change in their life, Just quit trying to push into my life , where you have no bussiness.


I'm asking this with respect and out of sheer curiosity, but who/where/how is this happening to you, people trying to push their personal changes into your life?


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Here's what I'm finding, so far:


Found it.  And found it enlightenting.  Thank you. 

Isn't there something somewhere about a rise in homosexual behavior in primates when the populations get too high? Or did I dream that? LOL I'll look into it when I'm feeling better. -- Well, what's a quick Google search going to cost me in energy?

This is thought-provoking:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/1500-animal-species-practice-homosexuality.aspx
but doesn't speak to homosexuality for the purpose of population control.  

And of course, there's always Bonobos to consider, but it seems they use sex as a means of keeping the group unified and congenieal.


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## helenbacque (Mar 28, 2022)

I believe that future research will prove that the chemical, BPA, can affect the development and genetic makeup of a fetus and perhaps even young children as they are developing.   It was originally developed as a hormone replacement/artificial estrogen.  Whoever thought putting it into the food chain was a good idea?


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> If this were the only problem we'd be pretty close to ok.  It does not effect many people, most don't compete in sports at a level for it to matter.
> 
> Seems to me to just be an easy target for attack and makes good press.
> 
> The simplest thing would just be to define, for highly competitive sports only, gender by XX or XY, and then focus on the many more important issues.


Actually, @Alligatorob, that could work; I mean that seems like a sensible, viable solution to what, I agree, is at present a very small aspect of the whole, but still... good idea.


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## senior chef (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> While I respect your opinion, the fact is that a person _can _change their gender; many, many have and more continue to do so. (I'm not using the more appropriate "sex" here because a person cannot change their chromosomes.) Not simply for those who were, as it is said, "born in the wrong body," but those born, for example, hermaphrodites or intersex.  What are they supposed to do?  Ignore the fact they can be helped (if they choose to) in favor of "nature?"  I mean, that _is _or _those are_ the sex(s) they were born with.
> 
> A person cannot change their chromosones, but they can certainly change their gender.  And why shouldn't they?  Every person has the right to feel comfortable and happy in their own skin.


I strongly disagree. A person can not change their gender. 
Yes, you can chop body parts off, but the a persons gender will ALWAYS be the same as that which they were born with. 
Yes, a person may be convinced they were born with the wrong body, but that does not change the chromosomes XX or XY and chromosomes are the ONLY determining factor in identifying gender.

Look at it this way. A man may be convinced he is Napoleon, but does that mean he IS Napoleon ?


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

senior chef said:


> I strongly disagree. A person can not change their gender.
> Yes, you can chop body parts off, but the a persons gender will ALWAYS be the same as that which they were born with.
> Yes, a person may be convinced they were born with the wrong body, but that does not change the chromosomes XX or XY and chromosomes are the ONLY determining factor in identifying gender.
> 
> Look at it this way. A man may be convinced he is Napoleon, but does that mean he IS Napoleon ?


I respect your opinion, but again, you are referring to sex here, not gender.


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## Pepper (Mar 28, 2022)

Are sex and gender the same?

Summary. *Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably*. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and *gender as a social construct* that is an *internal sense of self*, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity.Feb 21, 2019
What is the difference between sex and gender? - Office for ...​https://www.ons.gov.uk › economy › articles › whatisth...


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## oldpeculier (Mar 28, 2022)

Questions About Sex in Sport and Sports Policies​These data and comparisons explain why competitive sport has traditionally separated biological males (people with male bodies) from biological females (people with female bodies), and also why legal measures like Title IX in the United States require institutions to set aside and protect separate and equal funding, facilities, and opportunities for women and girls.

Still, society is being pushed in this period to reconsider both importance of separate sport compared to other values, and the way the girls’ and women’s category is protected.  As a result, the conversation includes four general categories of policy options:

1. Keeping girls’ and/or women’s sport only for females. 

2. Keeping the two categories but allowing males to compete in girls’ and women’s events (a) where they identify as girls and women, and/or (b) because they want the opportunity for some other reason, e.g., they are swimmers and their high school has a girls’ but not a boys’ swim team.

3. Keeping the two categories but allowing males to compete in girls’ and women’s events only if they identify as such and they transition their testosterone levels to within the female – ovarian – range.

4. Erasing the categories – no divisions by “male” and “female” however these are defined – and featuring only “open” sports and events where everyone competes together, or else in sports and events based on different classifications like height or weight.

Our goal in developing and presenting the data and comparisons in TABLES 1- 4 is to provide some of the facts necessary to evaluate these options and to help answer the overarching question: what would happen if we stopped classifying athletes on the basis of sex or else allowed exceptions to that rule?  More specifically, we hope that the data and comparisons are useful as people think about the following questions:

How important is sport, its particular events, and goals?

Should societies and sports governing authorities continue to be committed to equal sports events and opportunities for boys and girls, men and women?

Are there good reasons to ensure that biological females (people with female bodies) are included and visible in competitive sport, and if so, does it matter how they are visible?  For example, is it enough that they are given an opportunity to participate at some point in development sport, or is it important that they are competitive for the win so that we see them in championships and on the podium?

In general, the goals of the identity movement are to ensure that people who are trans and intersex are fully and equally included in society’s important institutions on the basis of their identity, not their (reproductive) biology.  In cases of conflict between the goals of the identity movement and sports’ traditional goals for girls’ and women’s sport, what should our priority be:  equal opportunity in sport for girls and women or the ability of each individual to participate in sports on their own terms? 

Should our priorities depend on the sporting context, for example, is or should the priority be different in elementary school, junior high school, high school, college, and professional sport?

If we want to have it all – to respect everyone’s gender identity and still to support girls’ and women’s sport by making a place for athletes with female bodies in competition – what’s the best way forward?  What’s the best compromise position?  Ultimately, this is the most important question for sports policymakers in this period.

A. Is it acceptable to include everyone but still to classify on the basis of sex, like we do already on the basis of weight in wrestling and boxing? For example, could the Olympic Committee have required Bruce Jenner - before he became Caitlyn and transitioned physically - to compete as a man in the men’s decathlon?

B. Would it have been more or less acceptable to have required Jenner to compete in the men’s decathlon, but not to prescribe how she expresses her identity as a woman?

C. If Jenner before her physical transition had wanted to compete in the women’s heptathlon, would it have been acceptable for the Olympic Committee to have required her first to transition physically, at least her testosterone levels, so that – although she would still be competing with a lot of developed male traits useful for athletics – all competitors would compete on equal footing in terms of steroid levels?

D. If none of these options strikes the right balance between the two important competing interests, is there another option that does?

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Are sex and gender the same?
> 
> Summary. *Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably*. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and *gender as a social construct* that is an *internal sense of self*, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity.Feb 21, 2019
> What is the difference between sex and gender? - Office for ...​https://www.ons.gov.uk › economy › articles › whatisth...


(I've just reread my post and it's coming out a little sharp, which I don't intend.  Apologies for that, @Pepper.)

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363#sex
Above is a very thorough explanation on this subject.  To wit: 

_"People often use the terms “sex” and “gender” interchangeably, but this is incorrect. Sex and gender are different, and it is crucial to understand why.

“Sex” refers to the physical differences between people who are male, female, or intersex. A person typically has their sex assigned at birth based on physiological characteristics, including their genitalia and chromosome composition. This assigned sex is called a person’s “natal sex.”

Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely.

People may identify with genders that are different from their natal sex or with none at all. These identities may include transgender, nonbinary, or gender-neutral. There are many other ways in which a person may define their own gender.

Gender also exists as social constructs — as gender “roles” or “norms.” These are definedTrusted Source as the socially constructed roles, behaviors, and attributes that a society considers appropriate for men and women."  _


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## chic (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> While I agree with you and you're absolutely right, you're talking about a person's sex, not gender.


That's true. But a biological male should not be allowed to compete against biological women in sports no matter how much we relate to his plight.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

chic said:


> That's true. But a biological male should not be allowed to compete against biological women in sports no matter how much we relate to his plight.


That _is _a conundrum. I like the solution @Alligatorob came up with regarding bringing the question of who competes against whom down to the xx, xy level. It seems cold in some sense but also clean and fair. 

Further, (I've already mentioned this I know), there's the question of whether hormone therapy would be considered doping in sports.


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## StarSong (Mar 28, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> 1) You cannot change the gender you are born with.


I disagree vehemently, having had a friend who transitioned from female to male.


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## senior chef (Mar 28, 2022)

Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?
It seems to me that gender identification is a mental construct.  Everyone knows full well that some people have serious mental issues. A persons belief is not necessarily correct.


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## Silent Rose (Mar 28, 2022)

senior chef said:


> Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
> Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?


I understand where you are coming from, but I would hope after all the genetic tests were completed and the identity of the said person was made that the next of kin would have been contacted and they would clear all of that up and whatever the wishes of the deceased person would be granted.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

senior chef said:


> Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.
> Look at this way. Just suppose a XY male believes himself to be female. One day he is out hiking in a wilderness area and he trips and falls off a cliff. His body is not found for several decades. The coroner eventually gets the body and in an attempt to identify him, the coroner runs a genetic test. The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?


We have covered this issue quite thoroughly; gender can and often is changed, sex, down to the chromosomel level, cannot be changed.

As regards your example scenario... who cares? The person is dead. Unless, as @Silent Rose mentions, there is an issue with family and I agree with her in that that would be cleared up by them.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but truly want to understand what are you trying to add to the conversation with this? What is the point you are driving at here?


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## senior chef (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> We have covered this issue quite thoroughly; gender can and often is changed, sex, down to the chromosomel level, cannot be changed.
> 
> As regards your example scenario... who cares? The person is dead. Unless, as @Silent Rose mentions, there is an issue with family and I agree with her in that that would be cleared up by them.
> 
> I don't want to be disrespectful, but truly want to understand what are you trying to add to the conversation with this? What is the point you are driving at here?


My point is quite simple. An XY person is MALE. Period ! No matter what he may think.
A XX person is FEMALE. Period ! No matter what she thinks.


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## Pepper (Mar 28, 2022)

I see your point @senior chef


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

senior chef said:


> It is quite common for people to think, and truly believe that they are absolutely correct in their thinking.
> However,
> 
> My point is quite simple. An XY person is MALE. Period ! No matter what he may think.
> A XX person is female. Period ! No matter what she thinks.


Yes, as I've mentioned, we've covered that here quite thoroughly.  That's why I asked; I was wondering if there was some further point your were trying to make.  The chromosome issue has been accepted within the conversation.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 28, 2022)

chic said:


> a biological male should not be allowed to compete against biological women in sports no matter how much we relate to his plight.


I think there are lots of sports where mixing sexes would not be a problem.  We should probably do more of it.

There are lots of genetically based physical reasons why some of us are better at athletic games than others.  For example at 5' 7" I never had a shot at being in the NBA, fair?  Maybe not but no one expects this to be corrected.  Don't see Olympic or professional leagues for the short...


Medusa said:


> I like the solution @Alligatorob came up with regarding bringing the question of who competes against whom down to the xx, xy level. It seems cold in some sense but also clean and fair.


Thanks Medusa, but I believe there are similar fairly simple solutions to a lot of our political issues.  It just requires compromise, both side accepting somethings they don't want to get somethings they do.  Problem is few people support these compromises as they don't fully satisfy either side.


senior chef said:


> Life is complicated enough without adding the confusing notion of a person who is XY thinking he is truly a female.


I also don't understand why a person would want to do that, but the people who are involved do.  And I don't see it as much of my business to get involved with someone else's desires.  Not so long as they don't hurt other people.


senior chef said:


> The results come back as MALE. So, who is right ? The coroner or the dead man who once identified himself as female ?


Who cares?


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## John cycling (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> _Gender, on the other hand, involves how a person identifies. Unlike natal sex, gender is not made up of binary forms. Instead, gender is a broad spectrum. A person may identify at any point within this spectrum or outside of it entirely._



A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.

Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females. 
XY males should NOT be allowed to compete with females, not ever, regardless whatever delusions they have.
A person might change their gender, but that doesn't change what they are, and it doesn't change what I think they are.

@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves.  Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them.  Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings.


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## Alligatorob (Mar 28, 2022)

John cycling said:


> A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.


I think a lot of this argument seems to come down to semantics, not a lot of disagreement on biology here, just what to call people.


John cycling said:


> XY males should NOT be allowed to compete with females, not ever


Bobby Riggs should have taken that position... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

John cycling said:


> A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
> A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.
> 
> Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females.
> ...


We've been over this.  You're late to the party.  

I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.

(I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I think a lot of this argument seems to come down to semantics, not a lot of disagreement on biology here, just what to call people.
> 
> Bobby Riggs should have taken that position... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)


I remember seeing a movie about the match between Billie Jean King and Bobbi Riggs.  Great story.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

_@Alligatorob said, "Thanks Medusa, but I believe there are similar fairly simple solutions to a lot of our political issues. It just requires compromise, both side accepting somethings they don't want to get somethings they do. Problem is few people support these compromises as they don't fully satisfy either side."_

This called to mind a line from a political negotiations scene from Star Trek Enterprise, which so as not to side track the conversation, while it's a struggle, I will spare you all.


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## Silent Rose (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> We've been over this.  You're late to the party.
> 
> *I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.*
> 
> (I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)


That is the thing. People who go through gender transition have very strong feelings about who they feel they are and also go through a lot of therapy as well before they complete the transitioning process. So you are 100% correct that they do not care that others may think that a trans person actually is not who they say they really are.


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## StarSong (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> We've been over this.  You're late to the party.
> 
> I doubt the people to whom you are referring care what you think they are.
> 
> (I do like the terms "XY Males" and "XX Females," however. It would seem they might be useful if the need to differentiate to that level became necessary, as in cases like the sports situation or even @senior chef's, analogy. It lends respect to the feelings and position of the transgender person, taking into account that they are/identify as, say, a female, but are technically an XY Male.)


The scientific community has known since at least 1959 that there are more gender determinant chromosomal patterns than XY and XX, plus some babies are born with ambiguous genitalia.    
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-mixed-sex-biology/ 

IMHO, people should be free to claim the gender they're comfortable with. That's not to say it would be fair for them to choose a gender for sports competitions.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

John cycling said:


> A pear might think it's an apple, but a pear is a pear, not an apple.
> A male might think he's a female, but that doesn't change that he's a male, not a female.
> 
> Only completely XX females should be allowed to compete with other XX females.
> ...


"_@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings._ "

I'm going to respond to this and then let it drop because it's coming periously close to personal attack and I'm not going there.  To that end, I did not mean to offend you and if I have, I apologize.

As regards this: "..._of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women._..."
No one said that "they" don't care about anyone else or about women. I don't know where you're getting this. It doesn't even make sense, to be honest.

And this, "_And because of that, I don't care about them._" Again, I doubt they are concerned.

What you can do about my postings is not read them. As we are so far apart on this subject, I will do you the same courtesy and in doing so hopefully avoid any unnecessary, unkind words exchanged in future.


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## oldpop (Mar 28, 2022)

I say live and let live. There are many things I just do not need to know. All I really need to know is how someone is going to proceed from this point forward.


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## dseag2 (Mar 28, 2022)

I have seen a few documentaries about transexual people who have gone from male to female.  Even after hormone replacement therapy and facial reconstruction, many of them still look very manly and are constantly bullied for that, but they have said they still feel better about themselves than they did prior to the transition.  I may not understand it, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who feels strongly enough about something to make a decision that may affect them for the rest of their lives.  For those who are interested, here is a clip of celebrities who have transitioned.  Some look amazing.


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## Medusa (Mar 28, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> I have seen a few documentaries about transexual people who have gone from male to female.  Even after hormone replacement therapy and facial reconstruction, many of them still look very manly and are constantly bullied for that, but they have said they still feel better about themselves than they did prior to the transition.  I may not understand it, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who feels strongly enough about something to make a decision that may affect them for the rest of their lives.  For those who are interested, here is a clip of celebrities who have transitioned.  Some look amazing.


I had no idea there were that many transgender celebs and some of them have made *amazing *transformations!  As long as they're happy; which they have every right to be.


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## Jan14 (Mar 28, 2022)

I wonder how many people that have a hard time accepting that some people have gender/ethnicity issues, may become a whole lot more understand IF it were their child or grandchild.  Things become real when it’s someone you love.


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## dseag2 (Mar 28, 2022)

Medusa said:


> "_@Medusa, of course they don't care about anyone else but themselves. Especially they don't care about women.
> And because of that, I don't care about them. Late to the party, are you afraid I missed one of your numerous postings._ "
> 
> I'm going to respond to this and then let it drop because it's coming periously close to personal attack and I'm not going there.  To that end, I did not mean to offend you and if I have, I apologize.
> ...


You are so kind.  I would have had a different response.   Yes, best not to read any of his posts.  At least I got his political post deleted (which he said wasn't political) so there's one less nasty post to create arguments in the forum.

Hope all is okay with you these days.  I've been thinking about you!


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## dseag2 (Mar 28, 2022)

Jan14 said:


> I wonder how many people that have a hard time accepting that some people have gender/ethnicity issues, may become a whole lot more understand IF it were their child or grandchild.  Things become real when it’s someone you love.


Great point.  That is pretty much the case with everything... race, religion, ****** preference, etc.  There is always prejudice until you actually get to know someone or have them in your family.


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