# I had a Black Dog - His name was Depression!



## Michael. (Feb 7, 2014)

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Millions of people around the world live with depression and have to take Tricyclic antidepressants 




At its worst, it can be a frightening, debilitating condition. 

Recognizing depression and seeking help is the first and most critical towards recovery. 

This is an amazing presentation 


http://tinyurl.com/p3tqomb


.


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

It's a very good and simple explanation of how it feels Michael, well found.'

I had a milder than many get brush with it about 15 years ago when my life was a deep hole and I toyed with burning the house down just to get out... but it never went past the plotting and fantasizing stage.  I was depressed but had good reason to be so perhaps it's different to what many suffer, or not as deep an 'episode' of it.    

The description in that clip nails it.  You don't feel sad, just empty.  Nothing looks right.  The world appeared to me like an old sepia photograph, everything real had gone and I was living in the shell of it.  Nothing really mattered to me.  I wasn't suicidal but if someone had pointed a shotty at me I wouldn't have given a toss if they pulled the trigger or not.

... and that was the key.. for me.  The realisation that I didn't care freed me to some extent. 
 I looked at things differently, I stopped worrying about anything, stopped planning things to get disappointed about, stopped giving a toss what anyone said or did, stopped trying to cover the blues up,  and just rode out the few days at a time when the world was shite and thought about how to live through the present a day at a time and to hell with appearances and the old rules.

 I didn't fight it, just waited for it to pass.  I was already cynical so being depressed wasn't a big change to me anyway really.  Long story short, it gradually receeded in frequency and it's gone, but sorry, it didn't take the cynicism with it.  

I didn't take anti-depressants as I felt that would be feeding it.  It may have been a poor decision but it was how I handled it. I like to be in control, never got drunk and wasn't letting some drug mess with my mind either, I had a vague idea of how it all worked and how to cope with it without the dope.  Just went with the flow.

BUT.. that's just me, I only had it 'mild' and any who do feel they're in a hole should at least talk about it to someone who won't say "oh, what have you got to be depressed about, you're better off than some!"  ... they may be right, always someone worse off, but they don't 'get' it.   
I found a GP who did get it and was a damned good psychologist as a few sentences from him put me on different track of thinking.  He left it up to me to decide if I needed to take the dope or not.  Good man.

What puzzles me is the confused messages that we get about depression.  Some things we read contend that it's a chemical imbalance in the brain over which we have no control.  If that is 'true' depression then that's not what I had, even though the symptoms are identical.  I had good enough reason to be depressed, I was trapped in a lifestyle I didn't want to be in, it was prison like, so who wouldn't get depressed about that?  You'd have to be nuts not to be wouldn't you?

So, does the 'chemical imbalance' cause the mental depression,  or does the mental attitude trigger the 'chemical depression reaction'???

Discounting those on the dole with 'professional' depression I wonder how many really have that 'chemical' depression?
Certainly not the farmers who hang themselves in the tractor shed.  God knows the way their lives have gone is depressing just to read about, let alone live with.  But they still need to talk about it if only to sort it out for themselves why they feel as they do.  
When you hear of rich, or young people with a future suffering from it then you do have to wonder if that is the chemical type. it's every bit as real to them.   But that's what shrinks are for I guess.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

I daren't watch it At the moment; my hole is too deep.

I have had to take anti-depressants for many years; dose goes up, dose goes down.

I have an extremely good doctor, who specialised in psychiatry, so is helpful, not dismissive.

I have often had no reason for this that anybody can put their finger on; so a chemical imbalance it is then, for me.

Keep taking the tablets..


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

Yep, we do what we have to Jen, no rights and wrongs.  Sorry you're going through it and I hope like mine it'll eventually pass.  My circumstances changed and that more than anything led to being free of it now, lucky I guess.  You're not alone though, remember that.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2014)

Diwundrin said:


> ...  But they still need to talk about it if only to sort it out for themselves why they feel as they do ...



And then of course there are those for whom "talking it out" is either not possible or not wanted.

I've never been one to discuss emotional problems with another person, even a family member or spouse. It just doesn't work that way for me. I have to go inside myself and do some exploring, some chipping-away at the faults that I find. It isn't always a 100% process, in fact it rarely is, but it gets me back on track. 

It's the way I was trained, it avoids the dicey drugs and it has the bonus of feeding my ego when it works.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

I am not very good at that Phil; tends to send me down, not up.......so I have to be well first!

I am learning to recognise the signs , so I can stop myself falling too far; takes so long to get out then.

At the moment I a wandering about in the middle somewhere....it will improve when spring comes I know.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2014)

I was lucky in that I was taught meditation and self-healing at a young age. I realize most people are not that lucky. 

Recognizing the symptoms is indeed a wonderful and essential first step - congratulations!


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

That's how I was too, I didn't ask the Doctor, he asked me if I felt depressed so I told yes of course I was bloody depressed why wouldn't I be and we took it from there.  I never spoke of it to the family except Mum who I mentioned it to, which brought the above response. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...and yes I guess it fed my ego a bit too that I took my own road with it.  Not a bad thing though as it was pretty much outa gas by then anyway.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2014)

I find that having an over-arcing life philosophy is an essential tool in fighting depression. It fuels whatever I do to balance-out my manic-depressive mood swings, and without it I would probably be lost at sea, or at least reduced to finding a new method. 

For me it's Taoist philosophy that does the trick. It isn't a magical cure - nothing magical about it, it's just a world-view. It's a tool, and tools come in all shapes and sizes. Religion does it for some. Drugs for others. But the good thing, for me, about this philosophy is that unlike the other two it doesn't come with dogma and it isn't soul-destroying. 

In general, I believe that a wider view of life is healthier than focusing upon single incidents. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle - if you spend too much time looking at a single piece you'll never perceive the clues that looking at the box-top offers. You have to fit that single piece into the whole, and you can only do that by _seeing_ the whole.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Quite correct Phil.....one reason why I started yoga. I needed the excercise, but the relaxation helps too...


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## rt3 (Feb 7, 2014)

Depression is so debilitating, and wide spread, the us medical community makes wide use of meds. simply because the medical system cannot handle the volume in a clinical setting. We have a sickcare system not a healthcare system. A lot of depression comes from recognizing the things that cause it, but the start of release is to realizes the things you can't do anything about. Do as Slim did in "City Slickers"  "just one thing" take control. Consider what you eat for lunch. Its really all you have control over. Plan your lunch, whole rye bread, smoked, peppered turkey, muenster cheese, avocado. Take time to enjoy every mouthful. Eat slowly letting that large muscle your stomach get all the oxygen it needs, let it starve your brain for oxygen for a few mins. If you can't control lunch what can you control? Ever try to herd cats or put socks on a rooster?


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2014)

rt3 said:


> Depression is so debilitating, and wide spread, the us medical community makes wide use of meds. simply because the medical system cannot handle the volume in a clinical setting ...



... or, they have CREATED the illusion that depression is widespread, _convinced_ the public that they have it and conveniently came up with meds to "cure" it ...


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

It is such a hard thing to define...are you miserable or really depressed ?
will you be better in 3 weeks, or not?
will talking therapy help?
do you need to change something fairly fundamental in your life?
that takes courage.....and a lot of rational thinking.

Or is it really a chemical imbalance in that particular individual, that needs a helping hand, with vigilance from a doctor?


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

I remember when every female over the age of 15 had a scrip for Valium thrust on them.  Apparently females were suffering a pandemic of anxiety or something back then.  These ailments get trendy, then suddenly everybody's got it or are told that they have.  Right about the profits the 'health' fads turn over.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Diwundrin said:


> I remember when every female over the age of 15 had a scrip for Valium thrust on them.  Apparently females were suffering a pandemic of anxiety or something back then.  These ailments get trendy, then suddenly everybody's got it or are told that they have.  Right about the profits the 'health' fads turn over.



Anti-depressants and the valiums of this world are completely different though.
valium numbs you, and can be addictive.
Anti-depressants, the more modern ones anyway, do not sedate you in the same way at all, and enable you to think more rationally again...

I hear rt3 creeping up behind me at this point!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2014)

To be fair it isn't entirely the medical / pharmaceutical industries' fault - they're just filling the public need (want) for instant results.

Two possible reasons for the massive employment of mind drugs: non-drug psychiatric therapy doesn't work, and if it does it puts too much of an onus upon the patient for self-healing. Second reason: people are in a hurry. They want results yesterday.

So much easier to believe that taking a pill will cure your ills, and in many cases it does. 

Just not ALL cases.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

True, Phil, and not instantly either.
i am really lucky; my doctor knows me well medically; so will always spend time with me, and suggest different strategies.
just giving me a tablet, and telling me to go away wouldn't solve anything.


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## rt3 (Feb 7, 2014)

regardless of the cause, the US doesn't have enough hospital beds to treat physical illness and mental illness. both the gov. and medical community rubber stamp use of drugs for this reason. If the US had the hospital beds to accommodate mental stuff they would do it simply because there is more money in it. 

Just here to back you up Vivjen, tried/loved Yoga, but I keep falling over. No knee cap passengers side, rheumatoid arthritis drivers side. 

valium--- that is nothing compared to the common practice of hysterectomies from the 70 thru the 90.  a gynecologists bread and butter.

it is more of a nutritional imbalance-- serotonin levels can be easily raised with a little work without drugs.  http://www.amazon.com/Clean-Gut-Breakthrough-Eliminating-Revolutionizing/dp/0062075861


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## rt3 (Feb 7, 2014)

long time fan of Yogi Bera here, not baseball but the man,  probably the premier oxymoronic ever existed

when you come to the fork in the road, take it
its not over till its over
I love little league baseball, it keeps the kids out of the house in the summer

who would of thought a book could have such wisdom in it, with a picture of a baseball player on the cover.


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## That Guy (Feb 7, 2014)

While in therapy through the VA, they kept pushing me to gobble Prozac.  I resisted and resisted and resisted until finally giving in just to get things moving along because all I really wanted was to talk to somebody and they weren't gonna give me a chance until I shut 'em up with the drug pushing stuff.  Read EVERYTHING I could find at the local library; the good, the bad, the ugly.  It didn't do a thing except for two of the popular side effects; insomnia and constipation.  One fine day, the shrink asks how I'm doin' on the pills and I was happy to report, "Well, Doc, I lie awake at night wishing I could take a decent shit."  Their brilliant deduction was to finally take me off the junk.

What has helped over the years has been simply a conscious choice to look for the good things in the light rather than get dragged down by the bad things in the dark.  It's a constant struggle but well worth the effort.  Just the other day, awoke to thinking, "Hooray, it's Wednesday!  Darn, it's only Wednesday."  I live for the weekends . . .    So . . . allow me to say, "Hooray it's FRIDAY!"


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

You are all so wise....I have been on here a month now.....thanks all.

I agreeTG; I can do that sometimes....but not always!
i have never been on Prozac, I don't altogether trust it!


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

I have had bouts of depression all my life. Dr.'s have prescribed everything from valium to alprazolam, at one time demirol (?), since I fell and received a blood clot on my frontal lobe at seven years old. I was hospitalized for nine months. So, I don't know which came first, the drugs, or the depression. :dunno:


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Not an easy one that Ina..
i think it is easier to deal with in some ways if there is a reason...


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

Hi Viv, It has never been as bad as it is right now, I'm fighting suicide as hard as I can. That is the first time I've written/said that word. I'm taking a big deep breath right now. I going to just watch this site for today and do nothing else. So, I'll be around "listening".  :dontworry:


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## rt3 (Feb 7, 2014)

com'on Ina I bet you got some really good Texas jokes.  Lets hear them.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Have you talked to your doctor?
tried the Phil method?
DON'T do anything, things do get better...including the weather.
the drugs you have mentioned won't help you much.....in my opinion...and you need some sun. It helps your serotonin levels
look at the picture of the statue on here.....don't give up.


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Don't forget....we missed you earlier...we are watching you....:bighug:


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

I tries the clinic, they sent me to Women's mental Health Association, they have at least a six month waiting list. We don't have any extra money. I do take vitamin D. Here's a joke, I was diagnosed with Sun Poisoning at 25, and now 30 minutes, even with Sun screen, makes me sick for 2 or 3 days. My immune system has been compromised since birth. I tried stopping the drugs several times, and always end up in the hospital. This is the most I've talked about this to anyone, my family run when I try. :trolls:


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

That is what we are here for.....because we don't 'know' you; it doesn't matter.
look what you guys did for me last week.
so, if you want...let rip; or watch.
and sit in the shade, with a hat; it will help....


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## rt3 (Feb 7, 2014)

help me out Ina, "You know your in Texas when"...............


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

rt3, You know your in Texas when, the good guy rides into town on Friday, and ride out three days later on Friday.  ??? :doh:


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## That Guy (Feb 7, 2014)

Ina!  After surviving Vietnam, I came home and wanted to commit suicide.  But, one fine day, after actually planning it, came to the brilliant realization that I'm gonna die someday anyway and should stick around to see what happens until then.  Have had some very beautiful and maybe not so great things happen in my life since then that I would have missed.

Stay with us.  There's always another day.  Suicide is no answer, my friend, no answer at all.


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## That Guy (Feb 7, 2014)

Let them go, Ina.  Believe me, I've had major disappointment with family!  Let them go and move on.


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

When it gets really bad, I remember that I still have to help my hubby. I don't want to leave him in the family's clutches. Although  Marine, he is a woos, and will just give up. So each time my mind gets into this frame, I remember just what could become of him. But, it is getting worse as my pain grows. :hide:


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## That Guy (Feb 7, 2014)

There ya go, Ina.  Your husband needs you and that's a good reason to stay with us.


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks TG, Generally I try to find something that I can look forward to in the future. Some times it is hard for me to see.:yoda:


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## Jambi (Feb 7, 2014)

Ina said:


> Hi Viv, It has never been as bad as it is right now, I'm fighting suicide as hard as I can. That is the first time I've written/said that word. I'm taking a big deep breath right now. I going to just watch this site for today and do nothing else. So, I'll be around "listening".  :dontworry:




If another person I'm close to commits suicide, I will need my other hand to count with.

Not like I have a ton of insight or solutions, but I would like to offer this; We all go in the end, that is guaranteed, so why not hang on and enjoy the ride while it lasts?


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

Hi Jambi, The only thing worse than my depression is the physical pain of my body. I've been dealing with the physical pain since I was 10, and broke my back. I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at 25, and spinal stenosis for the last ten. I do what I can with exercises,diet, and the Dr.'s put me on pain pills to lower my blood pressure. He said the pain was driving the BP. I really am not a coward. Just some days are harder than others. When asked if it will get any better, they just remind me that it is a progressive condition. :blah:


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## Vivjen (Feb 7, 2014)

Hi, I am back. See Ina, I know it is tough....much tougher for you than me.....hang on in there..


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## Michael. (Feb 7, 2014)

I worked for a time in the Medical Research Council Neuropsychiatry Unit and we specialised in the treatment of Affective Disorders

All the patients were female and we used a wide variety of medication to try and relieve the symptoms.

We also relied heavily on the use of ECT (Electro Convulsive Treatment) and I was sad to learn that this treatment is no longer widely available in Psychiatric Establishments.

I witnessed many patients returning to a relatively normal state using ECT two to three times weekly. (Many people still believe that the treatment was barbaric)


Brain Serotonin

We also used a drug called Tryptophan on many of the patients. ( Since my time many new additional medications are now prescribed to treat depression)

Serotonin is a hormone, (often abbreviated to as 5-HT.)

When serotonin levels are low, people often experience depression, anxiety and insomnia.

The amino acid tryptophan is needed to produce serotonin in the body. 

While foods contain some tryptophan, the diet may not provide enough tryptophan to make adequate amounts of serotonin. 

Additionally, enzymes that are influenced by inflammation and aging can break down tryptophan before it converts to serotonin.

Since my time in the Health Service treatments have changed and the large drug companies are continually developing new drugs and encouraging medical staff to prescribe their brands.

Research into the Affective Disorders continues and I hope that so called addictive designer drugs like *Prozac and Valium *will fall by the wayside.

It is a serious illness and many people continue to suffer. 

Early referral is very important and treatment needs to be monitored and reviewed on a regular basis.

One of the best free treatments is regular exercise outside. 

*If you are able* to take a 15 to 30 minute walk in the fresh air it will help. (With this illness motivation can be a major handicap)


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

Jambi said:


> If another person I'm close to commits suicide, I will need my other hand to count with.
> 
> Not like I have a ton of insight or solutions, but I would like to offer this; *We all go in the end, that is guaranteed, so why not hang on and enjoy the ride while it lasts?*



That is exactly the 'philosophy' I arrived at Jambi.  Procrastination has it's good points.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Looking at what affects our lives from the viewpoint of a disconnected spectator puts a whole different perspective on things.  It actually becomes interesting to watch *how* things are affecting us even if we can't change them by doing so.  Instead of* allowing *what a situation is doing to us to rule our decisions and attitudes to life, investigating *why they affect us so much* can be a damned interesting exercise.  

Take the time to study why they hold such power over us and they lose it.  Accepting a situation for exactly what it is, allows us to cope with it better than fighting to 'change' it. Knowing the enemy is half the battle.  I think deep down most know what 'it' is that depresses us, we shouldn't try to ignore it's true nature but  plunge in and have a really good hard look at it and get to know it better.

We don't have to meet it head on, we don't even have to 'beat' it,  we can recognise and respect it's presence while living around it. *Not in it*!
Learn about how it works on us and use it to stand on to get a better view of the rest of the circus out there.

Adjust to treating it as a colossal roadblock that we have to plot and plan to get around. We don't have to move it, just live around it.  Sometimes it shrinks of it's own accord, if not then we can keep getting around it. It's digging our hole but it *isn't all there is. 
*Even if we can't seem to 'get around it'... we're still alive and there's always something else going on somewhere that we can watch.

Adapt to what we can't change, accept it as an unalterable fact of life and adjust to coping with living with it.  Wishing it away sure won't work and trying to fight it, or changing our thinking with drugs to try and 'forget' it is giving it even more power over us.  Everyone has a different reason, but there is a reason, be it attitude, chemical or just a particularly sh*tty run of bad luck.  Can you change it? yes = do that. no? make it live with you, don't let it make you live to it's terms.

Give it a try, after all we're all going the same way to the same destination eventually, there's absolutely nothing to lose in using the time to try it and it helps to pass the time.    'Enjoy the ride.'


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## drifter (Feb 7, 2014)

I don't want to talk about it.


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## Diwundrin (Feb 7, 2014)

I've fallen behind a few posts so my little offering is just the way I handled it, it won't be everyone's path to justify hanging around.



> Michael wrote:   Additionally, enzymes that are influenced by inflammation and aging can break down tryptophan before it converts to serotonin.



I took Tryptophan many many years ago to head off the tension headaches I used to get at work and found it far preferrable to Valium etc and it worked with no discernible side affects on my part at all.  Then the Government banned it. Bugger!  Now it's back in another form so it makes you wonder doesn't it?

That's interesting that rheumatoid factors etc can break it down and that it also affects serotonin levels, hadn't heard that before.  
A lot of my family have been virtual lab rats for an astonishing array of different arthritis drugs over the years and that may explain why different ones had such vastly different results from each of them.  No magic bullet for all when it came to R.A.  I only got the 'Fibromyalgia' (nerve system) form of it but it does explain that it may be more than just pain that gets me down and cranky when the inflammation episodes are on.  Long term pain causes chemical changes in the brain too I'm told... but is that 'clinical depression?'  ...  gets complicated don't it?


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## Ina (Feb 7, 2014)

Sure does Di.  :iagree:


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## Jambi (Feb 7, 2014)

Michael. said:


> The amino acid tryptophan is needed to produce serotonin in the body.
> 
> While foods contain some tryptophan, the diet may not provide enough tryptophan to make adequate amounts of serotonin.




Interesting process;



> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Vitamin B-3 is made in the body from the amino acid tryptophan. On the average 1 mg of vitamin B-3 is made from 60 mg of tryptophan, about 1.5% Since it is made in the body it does not meet the definition of a vitamin; these are defined as substances that can not be made. It should have been classified with the amino acids, but long usage of the term vitamin has given it permanent status as a vitamin. The 1.5% conversion rate is a compromise based upon the conversion of tryptophan to N-methyl nicotinamide and its metabolites in human subjects. I suspect that one day in the far distant future none of the tryptophan will be converted into vitamin B-3 and it then will truly be a vitamin. According to Horwitt [1], the amount converted is not inflexible but varies with patients and conditions. For example, women pregnant in their last three months convert tryptophan to niacin metabolites three times as efficiently as in non-pregnant females. Also there is evidence that contraceptive steroids, estrogens, stimulate tryptophan oxygenase, the enzyme that converts the tryptophan into niacin.[/FONT]



Not a good bargain converting tryptophan to niacin. Niacin suppliments are cheap, allowing us to spare ouror tryptophan.


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## jrfromafar (Feb 8, 2014)

To anyone who faces depression - to the point of contemplating suicide:

I know that to some people, life can be so painful that they just want it to end. 


Years ago I had a business and a man became my partner in the business. We became very good friends. Eventually I got out of the business, but my partner and I remained very  good friends.  He had three grown children - over the years I knew them fairly well. A few years ago one of his sons died in a car accident. I remember my former partner bearing this horrible grief. 


Then just recently he told me that his 26 year old daughter was extremely depressed because her romance with her fiancé ended and she no longer wanted to live. I never spoke directly to his daughter about her situation but through her dad, I tried to give some advice and ways to encourage her. Her problem was more severe than anyone knew. Just before Christmas I heard the news that she committed suicide. 


At first I was so angry at her for what she did to the ones around her that loved her. How could she do this to her parents and her friends? How could she be so self centered that she no longer thought about how they would hurt if she killed herself? 


I then began to realize that she was dealing with, as the video named, a big black dog, that had taken control of her mind and blinded her of anything worth living for. Yes, blinded her. She was so blind that she did not see her parent's grief.  She was so blind that she could not see past her present situation of being dumped in a relationship. She could not see any beauty - or value - in anything. Of course she would want to kill herself - not because there was no beauty or value, but because she was blinded.


Blind - not able to see, is like being deceived. 


My advice for anyone so blinded that they can no longer see the beauty - the value in living is, don't allow your blindness to deceive you into believing this beauty and value and good - in life does not exist. You may not be able to see it, but it's there. It may be hidden by a fog or black cloud, but it is there.  Do NOT give up believing it exists. If you feel you are at the edge of this deception, go to ER - or get to someone who can help you immediately WITHOUT FAIL. what you DON'T want to do is commit some damage to yourself that is irreversible, because the day will come - you WILL see again, and everything will be all right.


_Renaissance_

_Stark reality sought me out_
_And woke me from my dream_
_I found myself engulfed in doubt_
_And jarred from life serene_

_I gazed upward to the open sky_
_That ever was so blue_
_But through the tears that filled my eyes_
_It turned a faded hue_
_And all about me where beauty was_
_I saw was jaded too_

_But from my world of broken rubble_
_Among the ruin and debris_
_Rose a will to face the struggle_
_That was resident in me_

_A spirit that persisted_
_That I never knew existed_
_Evermore my heart uplifted_
_Until defeat had been resisted..._

_Now the sky again I see..._
_As if I'd never known the color blue!_
_Oh the beauty surrounding me..._
_That gushes forth anew!_

_A rebirth and renewal_
_That I'd hoped for came at last_
_For I found that life is fertile_
_Among the ashes of the past~_


- yours, because I've been there.


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## Jillaroo (Feb 8, 2014)

_After my husband died in a car accident i was so full of grief i nearly took my life 3 times, just the thought of what i was doing to my daughters kept me from doing it_


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## jrfromafar (Feb 8, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _After my husband died in a car accident i was so full of grief i nearly took my life 3 times, just the thought of what i was doing to my daughters kept me from doing it_



 That's good - you did not allow your grief or depression to distort all of your good judgment. That saved your life!


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## Judi.D (Feb 9, 2014)

Ina, I know that on here in many ways we do not really know each other, but I think we can can have a lot of insight. Through a lot of your posts you have told us a lot about your life. I see you as an unbelievable SURVIVOR. You have to be such a strong person and a real fighter. I am not sure I could have survived what you have. Your stories have helped me put things in my life in perspective. Sometimes we don't realize how we can unknowingly impact other peoples lives in such a positive way. Di is right you have to learn to live with it not so immersed in it you can't see the sunrise.

You suffer from chronic pain which can be very difficult and depressing. Only people who do, can truly understand. I too have spinal stenosis, 6 herniated discs, bad knees and arthritis. Fortunately years ago I was sent to a pain clinic that helped me enormously. They taught me things to do which really help which have decreased the amount of medication I need. If you have it available where you are I would definitely recommend it. They taught me meditation, biofeedback, diet, and a lot of other very helpful things. Listen to the people here they have a lot of good insight and advice.

If you give up now you will simply be remember as someone who committed suicide instead of the fighter and survivor I see and others do.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 9, 2014)

I just saw a blurb on CNN about a large group of California doctors that refused to sign the health network papers. They had to bring in lawyers and it cost them a bundle, but they just didn't want to join.

So now I guess you'd have to pay cash to see them? Or your insurance policy would have to recognize them independently?


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## Rainee (Feb 10, 2014)

I once heard a song sung by a friend of mine .. it went like this .. where are you going sir with your black dog.. .. I thought he was really going for a walk with his black dog meaning a labrador or something till I was told he was going to be quiet by himself and breathe the fresh air ... Depression is hard. It's hard work. It's genetic and chemical.

 It's not the same as being depressed that- you lost your job, you have no money for bills, or you lost the  love of your life.. . It's inside you, a feeling, a hurt, a pain. Even when you have a reason to be happy- you aren't. Bottling it up inside will cause it to come exploding out of you. You need to talk to people who are positive. Get out and exercise. Eat healthy foods.

 A healthy body and spirit can do wonders for emotional health., while I have never suffered depression and am very placid by nature I have had some very bad situations in my life where I could have gone this way.. amazing I didn`t as I immediately thought of other people or try too .. ... not easy for some to do.. but for others who are really depressed like our son Mark or my stepson who died 5 years ago at 45 , he had huntingtons disease inherited from his mother and he felt like the whole world was against him .. he tried many times to end his lfe.. and he did in the end... was so sad.my husband found him and that has ruined his life too in a way.. .

 I tried all I could to help Mark  but he couldn`t be helped , wouldn`t listen  to any one.. but I used to say to him.. Mark please you need to realize you are not alone.. even when it feels like you are.. people all around the world , probably people close to you have even experienced the same thing.. please talk about it , don`t feel ashamed., don`t hide behind false emotions , because chances are when you let people in they can help and heal you , and you can help heal them.. he used to stagger all over when he walked and people were  so unkind,,yelling out to him ohh ! go on have another drink one more won`t hurt..so Mark was a lovely lad.. had the world at his feet he travelled the world before he was diagnosed with his disease to program  computers even in Hawaii and also California

.. he was so gifted but when he got diagnosed he just gave up to the monster like you say Black Dog which got him in the end.. so please if your prone to this sad illness seek help any way you can , there are others who can help and with out drugging you to the eyeballs.. sorry if I rambled on but this is so dear to my heart as having lived through it ..


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

The positive company may work for one type of depression Rainee but there is more than one.

Depression due to a miserable situation, pain, loss, feelings of inadequacy in short that having a recognizable reason, is a little (or lot) different to what is termed the 'the Black Dog' type which really has no good discernible reason to be found.    A chin-up, smile and hug to someone who is suffering loss may bolster their spirits but, and this just amateur opinion, trying to jolly up someone who doesn't know why they feel so desolate can have the opposite effect.  
It could just make them feel more guilty about being like that.  It gives them the impression that no one understands just how they really feel at all and are making light of it.  That what they feel is unacceptable to those they love most and as they can't help being like that they would be better off out of the way.
A depressed farmer on the brink of losing everything might be turned around overnight with a lotto win, but someone with 'chemical depression' won't be.  

I could be 180 degrees wrong on this but it seem to me that letting them explain it, without trying to argue with them, or being patronising about how they feel, and helping them to accept it for what it is,  and work around it at least initially would have more positive effect in supporting and persuading them to get professional help.

*The 'art of positive thinking' simply doesn't apply to someone incapable of it.*  That is the whole problem!  There's no logic involved in it.

They don't need sunshine and kind words, they want understanding and acceptance and an honestly interested ear.  You don't have to agree with their 'plans', just accept their word when they describe how they feel. Give them the dignity of believing them.  Giving them a lifeline of someone non judgemental to talk to about it may be the very thing that will change their 'plans.'  Just as negotiators talk suicides down off buildings with nothing but a few words of understanding.  They don't go out there and tell potential jumpers that they're stupid for jumping because they're young and healthy and have no reason that the negiator approves of to do it.  It's insulting.  I'd jump just to nark the pompous b*!   (kidding)


The last thing someone with a broken leg wants to hear is "oh that's nothing to worry about, think of all the other things you can still do, just get some crutches and go for a walk in the sunshine that'll cure it." It may be meant well but it can be construed as rather demeaning to the real predicament.   Doesn't anyone else think that sending get well soon cards to terminal patients is a little cruel at best and downright insulting to their intelligence overall?   

Depressed people aren't idiots.  They know exactly all the good things they have on offer, they just don't care about or value them, and feel guilty that they don't.  Pointing those wonderful things out to them just exacerbates the guilt and depression.  *Why* they don't value the good things in their life is their problem. 

That is how I see the 'chemical' black dog.  But I'm just basing this opinion on the type I had, which did have an underlying reason.  When I pinned down the reason and 'filed' it where it belonged the 'dog' shrank.   It must be pure hell to not find that reason. 
Don't downplay that with empty platitudes.  They need empathy, not sympathy and certainly not to be told cheerfully that a long walk will cure them.


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## Vivjen (Feb 10, 2014)

:iagree:

The black dog also makes you feel guilty for feeling as you do; when you appear to have everything going for you.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 10, 2014)

Ina, as I read about all your experiences that you've shared with us, I thought of the saying that whatever doesn't kill us, just makes us stronger.  I admire your strength, your resilience after all your hardships, your kind and loving character.  Say the word, and write it over and over if you wish, but please never do it.  I know you're still suffering with dark thoughts and physical pains, but you will get through it, things will get better.  You are surrounded by love and those who care, in your home, and right here.  Hugs to you dear Ina, have a lovely day. :girl_hug: :glittered:


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## Ina (Feb 10, 2014)

Hi Sea, My mind is strong, just not so much my body. Oh well, that's the breaks as they say. I shouldn't have said anything. I know this  forum is for up-lifting people, not the opposite. Thank you for all the encouragement. :cart:


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## Vivjen (Feb 10, 2014)

What do you mean; you shouldn't have said anything?
why not?
if you can't let rip on here, where can you?


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 10, 2014)

Ina said:


> Hi Sea, My mind is strong, just not so much my body. Oh well, that's the breaks as they say. I shouldn't have said anything. I know this  forum is for up-lifting people, not the opposite.



This forum is for seniors to discuss real life experiences and share opinions on everything, whether it is happy or sad.  I wouldn't be on a forum that only sugar-coated everything for a "feel good" appearance, how fake is that?  Besides, extremely on topic for this particular thread anyway.  Don't stop sharing Ina, we all benefit from it.


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## That Guy (Feb 10, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> What do you mean; you shouldn't have said anything?
> why not?
> if you can't let rip on here, where can you?



My thoughts exactly.


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## That Guy (Feb 10, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> This forum is for seniors to discuss real life experiences and share opinions on everything, whether it is happy or sad.  I wouldn't be on a forum that only sugar-coated everything for a "feel good" appearance, how fake is that?  Besides, extremely on topic for this particular thread anyway.  Don't stop sharing Ina, we all benefit from it.



What she said.


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## Ina (Feb 10, 2014)

Sea, Viv, Cee, Di, Rainie, & Judi.D, I just got through reading your posts of yesterday and today, and I thank all of you for your words of encouragement. I don't think things have been right for me since I received the blood clot to my frontal lobe at seven. I was "raised" to be a self contained individual, (developed in foster homes and hospitals),  and nothing else was acceptable. I spent most of my life trying to being the strength that my family needed. And it work so well that now that same family will not accept me as I am now. They got use to a smiling face, and an easy shoulder to lean on. I have always denied my physical short comings to myself and them, so what can I expect now. 
I do go to a pain clinic, at a monthly $500. cash lay-out for the prescriptions alone. I only take about half the recommended dosage so I can control the aggressive need to use more.
Your friendships have helped me tremendously. You help me see some light. But, you make it hard for me to hide my feelings from myself and others. THANKS AGAIN!! Laughter really is the best medicine. IT's hard to cry when your laughing. :cart:


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## Vivjen (Feb 10, 2014)

Stop hiding all those feelings.

I don't care if you swear, shout, cry or laugh, or anything else at us.

On this forum I have sworn at it, laughed and cried; all in one night.

So......don't hide if you don't want to.


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## Ina (Feb 10, 2014)

Viv, Old habits die hard. But I can,learn. :hit:  :cart:


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## Vivjen (Feb 10, 2014)

I know, Ina; I still find it very hard....somebody else always has to start the conversation, and I never join in until I am feeling reasonable.
you don't have to join in...only if you want to, after all..; then let Phil tell you a story!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> ... then let Phil tell you a story!


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

Ina said:


> Sea, Viv, Cee, Di, Rainie, & Judi.D, I just got through reading your posts of yesterday and today, and I thank all of you for your words of encouragement. I don't think things have been right for me since I received the blood clot to my frontal lobe at seven. I was "raised" to be a self contained individual, (developed in foster homes and hospitals),  and nothing else was acceptable. I spent most of my life trying to being the strength that my family needed. And it work so well that now that same family will not accept me as I am now. They got use to a smiling face, and an easy shoulder to lean on. I have always denied my physical short comings to myself and them, so what can I expect now.
> I do go to a pain clinic, at a monthly $500. cash lay-out for the prescriptions alone. I only take about half the recommended dosage so I can control the aggressive need to use more.
> Your friendships have helped me tremendously. You help me see some light. But, you make it hard for me to hide my feelings from myself and others. THANKS AGAIN!! Laughter really is the best medicine. IT's hard to cry when your laughing. :cart:



Ina, my problems never held a candle to yours but that scenario is eerily familiar.  It wasn't until I worked out that I was living 'their' life to 'their' expectations, and not mine, that things started falling into place.  Once I realized that my position was one I had allowed myself to be put in, and stopped laying all the blame on 'them' and 'owned' the reason for the depression it was easier to cope with somehow. I made some wrong decisions for all the right reasons and instead of regretting them, just accepted that they were a good idea at the time.  It was my decision to 'do my duty' they just expected it, they didn't force me.  I didn't regret the duty itself, just never took into the account the length of time I was committing to.  No crystal ball.

Once I was freed of the self imposed duty to the 'needy' I just packed up and moved,  distanced myself from all other expectations. it was too late to live the life I wanted to, but I was free of others' expectations for the best 3 years of my life.    Strangely I get on with them better over the phone than in person.  That's all good.  They are the very best of people but they are younger, healthier active people who expected more from me than I could produce and made me feel guilty that I couldn't manage to do the things that were so easy for them.

Now that they are reaching the 'age of doom' and going down with the family curse of RA themselves I'm getting sympathetic phone calls. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Too late, but kind of smugly satisfying.  'Walk in the shoes' applies.

SB and Jen are spot on... letting rip is what the forum is for.  We can't support each other if we don't know what the problem is.  
If we just want to ignore the pains of life we can go  some schmaltzy chat site.  
We're experienced adults with little else to do but extend understanding and hopefully a bit of advice and support to each other.  
Having a laugh about some of it is a tremendous bonus, but that's not the main reason for the forum's value.

We don't all have to be Pollyanna, even gallows humour has it's therapeutic benefits.


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> View attachment 4969



Anyone remember this old song?  Can't find it on Youtube.

*Song Lyrics:* 		 			[Junior:]
Tell me story, tell me story
Tell me story, remember what you said
You promised me you said you would
You got to give in so I'll be good
Tell me a story, then I'll go to bed

[Father:]
Oh, worry, worry, weary ends my day
Time to go home without my raise in pay
Home by the fire where a man can just relax
Sippers there by the chair, not a worry, not a care
Along comes Junior swinging his little axe

[Junior:]
Tell me a story, tell me a story
Tell me a story, remember what you said
Tell me about the birds and bees
How do you make a chicken sneeze
Tell me a story, then I'll go to bed

[Father:]
Came home so late one evening last July
Played a little poker the time had passed me by
Shoes in my hand and my darlin' wife in bed
Up the stairs sayin' a prayer
Then a voice comes through the air ....

[Junior:]
Hi you there, Daddy
Remember what you said

Tell me a story, tell me a story
Tell me a story, remember what you said
Tell me how your eye got black
Because the doorway hit you back
Tell me a story, then I'll go to bed

[Father:]
Once upon a time I remember long ago

[Junior:]
Don't go back in history
Your memory's kinda slow

[Father:]
Stop your noisy talkin'
Until I finish with my tale
Once upon a...

[Junior:]
Upon a what...

[Father:]
Upon your back you'll get a swat

[Junior:]
Tell me about the fish you caught
That's was bigger than a whale

[Junior:]
Tell me a story, tell me a story
Tell me a story, remember what you said
You promised me, you said you would
You gotta give in so I'll be good

[Father:]
Here's a tale you'll never forget
(Tap, tap, tap)

[Junior:]
Ouch
My tails all red

[Father:]
And now get up to bed

[Junior:]
Ha, ha come on Daddy
Tell me a story
Hee, hee
 (Hatman)


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## Ina (Feb 10, 2014)

Sorry Phil, I guess I was being childish, but I wanted to see you in action, so to speak. :cart:


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2014)

Ina said:


> Sorry Phil, I guess I was being childish, but I wanted to see you in action, so to speak.



That's what SHE said!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2014)

Diwundrin said:


> Anyone remember this old song?  Can't find it on Youtube.



You've got me stumped on that one - never heard it before. 

But I like it!


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## Ina (Feb 10, 2014)

Di, we do seem to have some similarities. I did come to the realization that I too was living their lives, and not my own. I don't blame my family, because I never told them or anyone else my history, and very little to my husband Michael. Starting adult life at 13, then motherhood at 14, had not allowed me enough time to develope a self. At the time I had only two selves, a sexually abused child, which started at 4, and the book world I lived in as much as possible. Books taught me my basic values, and they can set some rather high standards.
I accept that what happened in my own home was my own fault, but I didn't want what happened to me to effect those around me. Plus, I had never had the time to figure out who I was, until they all left. Instead of the adult advice most people get, I read more books, and tried to be like what I found in them. Now my body has changed my abilities, and most of my family haven't a clue why I can't be as before, and I don't have them to even be that old person with anymore. I have not a clue how to straighten it out. And here I don't want ya'll to think of me as one of those sad sacks. :dontworry:  :cart:


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

I'm sure it was Frankie Laine and someone did the version I remember, might have been a little early for you Phil..


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 10, 2014)

Sad sack never did and never will cross my mind Ina!  Looks to me like your straightening things out in your own special way....Kudos for that! k:


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2014)

Diwundrin said:


> I'm sure it was Frankie Laine and someone did the version I remember, might have been a little early for you Phil..



Probably was.

I DID find this, though ...


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

> And here I don't want ya'll to think of me as one of those sad sacks.



Can't say 'sad sack' was the impression I got, the opposite in fact.  A strong character doing the best she can with what she's got, nothing 'sad' about that attitude Ina.

Do we have to 'sort it out' entirely though?  You have the gist of it, the cause of it, and that's the bit we have to live with.  The solution is something to be hoped for but not necessary to negotiate our way around the problem itself.  I can't ever 'solve' my problems, they went with the people that caused them who really probably never realised that they were the problem anyway.  Different situation to yours but I got it 'pegged' and that was enough.  

My 'anthem'  is "Nothing I Can Do About Now."  " ...._  and I know what I would change, if I went back in time somehow, ...I've forgiven everything that forgiveness will allow,.... and there's nothing I can do about it now."_

I read somewhere that mostly sadness stems from the failure to have things go as we want them to. True enough I guess.

Write off the wishes and druthers, we can't change the past, just learn how to live with it, 'file' it to look at when we need to, but keep it from interfering with today. We can't do much about our physical predicaments either, just live with 'em for want of other option.
 I'm making some new history, it's not exciting,  but at least it's not just living the old one over and over.


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

That's it Phil!! 
 Earworm???  You'll replay it in your head every time someone wants a story now. Bwaaahahahaha


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## Jillaroo (Feb 10, 2014)

:holymoly:  _*I haven't heard that song since i was a little girl, i used to sing it all the time and thought i did a damn good job to boot, the other i used to sing was How much is that doggie in the window, ahh the memories*_:neat:


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## Diwundrin (Feb 10, 2014)

Yeah, well remember the doggie in the window too Jilly.


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