# Thinking of divorce but holding back?



## SeaRaven (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm FINALLY separated after 40+  years.  This should have happened years ago and not after retirement but I can't change that. 
I'm truly happy now that he lives an hour away and I don't see him or deal with him.  When we went to counseling, he refused to talk and just stared at the floor.  I knew it was over.
How many of you are out there and you want OUT of a long- standing marriage? How many of you have had these thoughts for YEARS but have only confided in a few people or no one at all? 
 "Gray divorce" will only continue to climb; the last of the Boomers turn 65 in 2030.    In other words, there are lots of us out there and this type of divorce will become normal.  
( no offense to those of you with awesome marriages but please don't reply here, start your own thread of "Best.Marriage.Ever.")


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## Alligatorob (Dec 15, 2021)

Hope it works out for you!  You already sound happier.


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## Pepper (Dec 15, 2021)

I love the area that you live in.  I know it well.


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## SeaRaven (Dec 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I love the area that you live in.  I know it well.


Turned out that I needed the ocean more than I needed a husband.


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## hollydolly (Dec 15, 2021)

Congratulations... may you live your best life from now on...


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## Packerjohn (Dec 15, 2021)

I had a wonderful marriage so as requested I wouldn't and actually can't comment here.  Good luck to ya all!


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## Sachet (Dec 15, 2021)

SeaRaven said:


> I'm FINALLY separated after 40+  years.  This should have happened years ago and not after retirement but I can't change that.
> I'm truly happy now that he lives an hour away and I don't see him or deal with him.  When we went to counseling, he refused to talk and just stared at the floor.  I knew it was over.
> How many of you are out there and you want OUT of a long- standing marriage? How many of you have had these thoughts for YEARS but have only confided in a few people or no one at all?
> "Gray divorce" will only continue to climb; the last of the Boomers turn 65 in 2030.    In other words, there are lots of us out there and this type of divorce will become normal.
> ( no offense to those of you with awesome marriages but please don't reply here, start your own thread of "Best.Marriage.Ever.")


I think there are many of us.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Dec 15, 2021)

Wow! Stagnant/stale marriages! So many want to get out of a marriage that has ran it course. Someone once said that marriages should be like leasing a car. Maybe a 5 year contract to start (no more of the archaic "until death do us part"). As the initial period is concluding, the couple would sit down and decide if it's necessary to renew the contract. 

Life is too short to hang around waiting and hoping.


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## SeaRaven (Dec 15, 2021)

Sachet said:


> I think there are many of us.


There are many of us and will be many more in the future according to statistics.    Do you have anything you'd like to share?


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## Ruthanne (Dec 15, 2021)

I just give my support to those who feel they need to divorce.  I was never in that position, personally, so I have no other comment.


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## grahamg (Dec 16, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> I had a wonderful marriage so as requested I wouldn't and actually can't comment here.  Good luck to ya all!


My marriage was best brought to an end, (even though I didn't think so at the time), but I still admire those whose marriages have lasted generally, and haven't thought how many of them are like the one described in the OP.

I have a funny thing to say though, and it is something my patents used to say, "Least said soonest mended", (I do think sometimes expecting to be able to talk out every problem is a mistake, and can become overbearing behaviour).


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## Bellbird (Dec 16, 2021)

In the 1970’s when I wanted to get a divorce,Social Welfare was not available, there were no support groups, family support was not around,I certainly didn’t have the finances to support myself or my kids,  so as was the saying at the time, make the best of what you have. .


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## hollydolly (Dec 16, 2021)

Bellbird said:


> In the 1970’s when I wanted to get a divorce,Social Welfare was not available, there were no support groups, family support was not around,I certainly didn’t have the finances to support myself or my kids,  so as was the saying at the time, make the best of what you have. .


Which is exactly the problem my mother had in the 60's and 70's . She wanted desperately to leave my father,, but there was nowhere she could take children, and no social welfare to help, even if she could have found somewhere to rent with 4 kids... ... so she left a couple of times alone and found a little bedsit , and left us with him  , but he always found her and brought her back...


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## IFortuna (Dec 22, 2021)

As I have written before, there are some serious problems with aging for some people,  For instance, if your mate was not a communicator to begin with it may only get worse with aging.  Unfortunately, some if not all of those aging get brain deterioration and may have what are known as plaques.  This can cause impairment in behavior and the thought process of the individual.  

Of course, you cannot force someone to get help and some men and women have a very hard time verbalizing their feelings or medical needs.
If a spouse is feeling upset by coping with a loved one, perhaps it is time to get them the help they need.
After 40 or 50 years together, I hate to see people give up.  And, if the other spouse has health issue themselves, it is even more difficult.  

Some couples in this situation may be able to get visiting nurses or the like to come in and help if possible.  I believe Medicare covers this option.
If a person believes there is no way to salvage the marriage then it may be impossible to continue under the circumstances.

These are just my opinions and suggestions.  I hope it helps.  
It seems like a very difficult position to be in.  You have my sympathy and well wishes.


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## horseless carriage (Dec 22, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I have a funny thing to say though, and it is something my patents used to say, "Least said soonest mended", (I do think sometimes expecting to be able to talk out every problem is a mistake, and can become overbearing behaviour).


Your parents were onto something there. My wife and I were given similar advice: "No matter what the spat, always be friends by bedtime." It was sound advice, going to sleep in 'no talking,' mode can only allow the row to fester. We have lost so many good friends through divorce, but as SeaRaven asked for, best not to comment. Divorce is a bitter pill that we have never had to swallow.


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 22, 2021)

Years ago, divorce was a sign of failure, and tragedy. Today, I believe most people realize that all marriages are not made in heaven. And there is no reason to continue to live unhappily ever after. And to be honest, when some of my friend's announced their divorce, it really wasn't a total shock.


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## Wren (Dec 22, 2021)

I absolutely agree with a five year marriage contract, the key word in my opinion, is happiness

We only have one life, if you’re not making each other happy, time to call it a day


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## officerripley (Dec 22, 2021)

IFortuna said:


> If a spouse is feeling upset by coping with a loved one, perhaps it is time to get them the help they need.
> After 40 or 50 years together, I hate to see people give up. And, if the other spouse has health issue themselves, it is even more difficult.
> 
> Some couples in this situation may be able to get visiting nurses or the like to come in and help if possible. I believe Medicare covers this option.


A couple who are friends of ours are starting to move into this territory; the husband is the one with the health issues (many!) but the wife is becoming exhausted, partly because the doctors don't seem to have a clue how to help the huzz (severe pain, speech slurring, muscle spasms and none of the numerous scans show anything); and after giving up on the doctors here, they drove 2 hours to a university med center, one that's supposed to be excellent; welp, they haven't been any help either. And unfortunately, I think the only thing Medicare covers is 3 months of being in a skilled nursing facility. I think the only time visiting nurses are covered for any length of time is if you're far enough down the economic ladder to qualify for Medic-Aid (in this state anyway) which they aren't; otherwise it's cash on the barrel head as they say to cover the visiting nurses.

I'm worried about them. (And I was already worried about when this day comes for Huzz and me! Ain't getting old great?


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## grahamg (Dec 22, 2021)

Wren said:


> I absolutely agree with a five year marriage contract, the key word in my opinion, is happiness
> We only have one life, if you’re not making each other happy, time to call it a day


Best not to get married at perhaps, (save your money, and kidding folks or yourself?)!


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## grahamg (Dec 22, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Years ago, divorce was a sign of failure, and tragedy. Today, I believe most people realize that all marriages are not made in heaven. And there is no reason to continue to live unhappily ever after. And to be honest, when some of my friend's announced their divorce, it really wasn't a total shock.


If something can't survive tough times was it really worth much in the first place, (my ex. claimed our seven year marriage was a mistake, and it hard to argue against that in almost any way, funny thing is though she's managed two more "mistakes" since then!)?


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## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2021)

officerripley said:


> A couple who are friends of ours are starting to move into this territory; the husband is the one with the health issues (many!) but the wife is becoming exhausted, partly because the doctors don't seem to have a clue how to help the huzz (severe pain, speech slurring, muscle spasms and none of the numerous scans show anything); and after giving up on the doctors here, they drove 2 hours to a university med center, one that's supposed to be excellent; welp, they haven't been any help either. And unfortunately, I think the only thing Medicare covers is 3 months of being in a skilled nursing facility. I think the only time visiting nurses are covered for any length of time is if you're far enough down the economic ladder to qualify for Medic-Aid (in this state anyway) which they aren't; otherwise it's cash on the barrel head as they say to cover the visiting nurses.
> 
> I'm worried about them. (And I was already worried about when this day comes for Huzz and me! Ain't getting old great?


It will be fantastic when imaging technology improves (and becomes cheaper, ergo, more accessible).

The only way my spine specialist realized my problem was the nerves and not the bones is that he spotted it during a surgery. Most of your nerves are super tiny, and don't show up in most types of imaging, plus most doctors aren't even looking at the nerves, because when you complain of back pain you're sent to an osteo/bone specialist.

(sorry, @SeaRaven , for going off-topic)


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## IFortuna (Dec 22, 2021)

officerripley said:


> A couple who are friends of ours are starting to move into this territory; the husband is the one with the health issues (many!) but the wife is becoming exhausted, partly because the doctors don't seem to have a clue how to help the huzz (severe pain, speech slurring, muscle spasms and none of the numerous scans show anything); and after giving up on the doctors here, they drove 2 hours to a university med center, one that's supposed to be excellent; welp, they haven't been any help either. And unfortunately, I think the only thing Medicare covers is 3 months of being in a skilled nursing facility. I think the only time visiting nurses are covered for any length of time is if you're far enough down the economic ladder to qualify for Medic-Aid (in this state anyway) which they aren't; otherwise it's cash on the barrel head as they say to cover the visiting nurses.
> 
> I'm worried about them. (And I was already worried about when this day comes for Huzz and me! Ain't getting old great?


I am so sorry for this predicament for your friends. Please take heart as their situation may likely not be your fate. Waiting for there to be news is very hard.  My prayers for all of you.


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## officerripley (Dec 22, 2021)

IFortuna said:


> I am so sorry for this predicament for your friends. Please take heart as their situation may likely not be your fate. Waiting for there to be news is very hard.  My prayers for all of you.


Thank for the good thoughts. One thing about our friends: they have grown children who I think might be stepping in soon to help. I am afraid though that their situation or something like it will indeed be my fate since my Huzz and I have never had children; I'm just hoping that I get Alzheimers or dementia before he does since he's a foot taller and 100 lb. heavier than I; I can just see me trying to stop him from driving, wandering around all night, trying to go outside unclothed, etc...yeah, right; he's stubborn now and that only gets worse as these old men get older--proven to me by my grandfather, father and stepfather--even before they get Alzheimers. I guess some guys hate getting older even more than women do.


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## Skyking (Dec 22, 2021)

As I get older it seems peace is what I desire most. The 'so much younger wife' is sadly oblivious to this. Mind you, she's a beautiful spirit, but she just doesn't get me. I don't even get me, but this I know, peace is what I desire most.


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## IFortuna (Dec 22, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Thank for the good thoughts. One thing about our friends: they have grown children who I think might be stepping in soon to help. I am afraid though that their situation or something like it will indeed be my fate since my Huzz and I have never had children; I'm just hoping that I get Alzheimers or dementia before he does since he's a foot taller and 100 lb. heavier than I; I can just see me trying to stop him from driving, wandering around all night, trying to go outside unclothed, etc...yeah, right; he's stubborn now and that only gets worse as these old men get older--proven to me by my grandfather, father and stepfather--even before they get Alzheimers. I guess some guys hate getting older even more than women do.


 I have no children either  so I will have to tough it out.  However, things always seem worse in my imagination than they turn out to be in real life.  My brain exaggerates just about everything so I have to keep it in check. Also, by the same token, I love intensely and may need to be content to love from afar if I must.  Nothing is impossible. Yes, some guys are stubborn. It is a matter of perceived manhood I guess.  When the body starts breaking down, men feel less manly and women may feel less sexy. LOL It is humbling isn't it. So, I live in the moment and cross my fingers. LOL  My best to you and your hubby.


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## mellowyellow (Dec 22, 2021)

Sad to say but I think it's all about the finances.


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## SeaRaven (Dec 24, 2021)

grahamg said:


> , "Least said soonest mended", (I do think sometimes expecting to be able to talk out every problem is a mistake, and can become overbearing behaviour).


Here's the cliche' I like , "A WOMAN NEEDS A MAN LIKE A FISH NEEDS A BICYCLE".


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## grahamg (Dec 25, 2021)

SeaRaven said:


> Here's the cliche' I like , "A WOMAN NEEDS A MAN LIKE A FISH NEEDS A BICYCLE".


I can see why you added the caveat "cliche", because of course if all men, (or women!), were the same then there would be no need for dating agencies listing an individuals characteristics, no need for elaborate courtships and weddings, nowt like that is necessary because in a sense " you can't go wrong", nor indeed can you find the perfect partner either!


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## katlupe (Dec 25, 2021)

As I have told many times on various threads here, I dreamed constantly of leaving my husband for about ten years or so. I thought I could not due to not having a job or my own money. I made money selling online but it always went to bills and other things.......like gas, credit card bills or food (in that order). After I started getting my social security, I left within 3 years. It was my third marriage. And the last. Technically still married. On paper.

What I wanted to say was that each time I got married, I was madly in love. I thought this was it. My last marriage lasted for 24 years, 4 of those years in the beginning we were not married. Things were great all that time. What wore me down was when we moved to an off-the-grid homestead. No conveniences like normal people have every day. Then we had 3 horses and they are expensive. I love horses but that was a stupid thing to do. The house needed a lot of work but never seemed to get it done. To this day it has no running water and a sawdust toilet. I had no money for groceries. I had to sell something on eBay to be able to get some food. Not really blaming him because I wanted to move there just as much as he did.

He had bad anger issues. Always mad. Always throwing or breaking things. Not at me directly. If it was snowing or raining or the horses needed hay and he had to go pick it up he was extremely angry. I was walking on eggshells 24 hours a day. I cried every night. I had health issues and no health insurance. He had the VA and I had nothing. The last 6 months of living there, I never left even to go to the store. I felt trapped. It was a lot of work living there. I prayed and prayed for some way to get out (not dying of course). Every evening when it started to get dark, he would turn off our power. Kerosene lamps. Sitting in the dark. I thank God for the Kindle! Sure beat using a flashlight to read. 

My advice to women in miserable marriages is to get out no matter what you have to do. If you have to swallow your pride and apply for social benefits available, then do so. Life is too short to spend it being miserable. I believe if you live in stressful situations you will die sooner than you would have if you were happy.


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## Blessed (May 16, 2022)

Marriage, I was married for 31 years with and we dated for 5 years prior.  Even at a young age I knew being madly in love did not always count.  We had many challenges, ups and downs, I did not expect us to be silly teenagers all our lives.  I think we got through the hard times because we both had the same values, taught to us by our parents.  You have to work at it, make decisions together. Be committed to the vows you made.  These days it seems our younger generation just throw in the towel if a problem comes up.  You have to be prepared to work through things. Most of us have had to do that at work, with relatives and friends, even our children. Why we would think we don't have to work to have a good relationship with our spouse.


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## JonSR77 (May 16, 2022)

you guys can go your way, but my cat and I are NEVER going to divorce!  Not ever!

Best Friends Forever!!


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## JonSR77 (May 16, 2022)

I am a child of divorce.  My parents HATED each other.  And I mean HATED each other!

Sometimes, you just have to part ways...


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## JonSR77 (May 16, 2022)

SeaRaven said:


> Here's the cliche' I like , "A WOMAN NEEDS A MAN LIKE A FISH NEEDS A BICYCLE".



Why do female spiders, murder their husbands right after the wedding night?

Answer:  They are trying to stop the snoring before it starts...


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## Blessed (May 16, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> I am a child of divorce.  My parents HATED each other.  And I mean HATED each other!
> 
> Sometimes, you just have to part ways...


They must have had some reason they married I realize there are some things you can't fix or ignore.  There is no other choice.  The problem I have is when people marry that have not taken the time to really know each other.  To get to know the others family.  That you both know what is important to each other. If you do this, you can have a good marriage.


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## JonSR77 (May 16, 2022)

Blessed said:


> They must have had some reason they married I realize there are some things you can't fix or ignore.  There is no other choice.  The problem I have is when people marry that have not taken the time to really know each other.  To get to know the others family.  That you both know what is important to each other. If you do this, you can have a good marriage.



I was never privy to the reasons. My parents were married for 8 years before they had my brother, for 10 years before they had me.

I think money was one issue, but probably not the whole thing.

My Dad had depression, possibly also PTSD from WWII.

My mom is a full blown nutcase. So, who knows what happened.

I am sure that, in the beginning, they loved each other a lot. I think, maybe, if only one of them had problems, it might have worked out.


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## Blessed (May 16, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> I was never privy to the reasons. My parents were married for 8 years before they had my brother, for 10 years before they had me.
> 
> I think money was one issue, but probably not the whole thing.
> 
> ...


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## officerripley (May 16, 2022)

Another thing that makes it hard to try to work things out and stay in a marriage is if one spouse (in my parents' case, the husband) sees no reason that they have to be faithful, that being faithful is an "unnatural" constraint to put on someone and the other spouse is heartbroken by it.


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## jujube (May 16, 2022)

My parents got divorced after 37 years of marriage.  They remarried less than two years later.  We all just pretended that "the incident" never happened and went back to celebrating their original wedding anniversary.


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## Blessed (May 16, 2022)

That must have been hard for you.  The money thing, never been rich, always had a home, car, job. We could do what we wanted but would have to save to purchase big things or travel.  I can still do that, I have a good retirement but I am thrifty by nature. 

My mother was married 3 times, first husband, a closet drinker, divorce.  Second husband, my Dad, everything good, he had a massive heart attack and died at 36.  Third husband, stepdad, loved him but had a step brother that got into drugs.  Step dad took his boys and left when Mom said he could not be around the little kids. I understood both their reasons, was not angry or upset with either of them.


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## JonSR77 (May 16, 2022)

Blessed said:


> That must have been hard for you.  The money thing, never been rich, always had a home, car, job. We could do what we wanted but would have to save to purchase big things or travel.  I can still do that, I have a good retirement but I am thrifty by nature.
> 
> My mother was married 3 times, first husband, a closet drinker, divorce.  Second husband, my Dad, everything good, he had a massive heart attack and died at 36.  Third husband, stepdad, loved him but had a step brother that got into drugs.  Step dad took his boys and left when Mom said he could not be around the little kids. I understood both their reasons, was not angry or upset with either of them.



so sorry about the difficulties.

I am barely scratching the surface of what went on. I remember being in court, in a judge's chamber, when I was 8. Some kind of battle between the two of them.

I think my Dad had a paternity suit going. I think he knew I was his kid, I think it was just his attempt for the court to maybe see exactly how nuts my mother really was. She basically never got caught and just spewed misery through a lot of lives...

Very intelligent and incredibly creative...she just scammed everybody. She is not alone. I have a feeling that Amber Heard is another one, like my mom. If so, maybe this court case will expose and catch her. Not saying I know she is that...but maybe...

You know, to this day Joan Crawford has defenders who believe the daughter lied. So much of that case resonates with my own personal experience. I don't think you can make up things like that. 

I once caught my mother on the phone, talking to someone with a real criminal past. I yelled at her not to get involved in any kind of business with that person. Mommie's response? She called the cops on me!!! Kind of an evil genius thing that...getting close to being caught, she turned the tables and went after me...for trying to STOP criminal activity!


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## Blessed (May 16, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> so sorry about the difficulties.
> 
> I am barely scratching the surface of what went on. I remember being in court, in a judge's chamber, when I was 8. Some kind of battle between the two of them.
> 
> ...


I guess I have been sheltered, I have only met a handful of people like that.  Once I figured out they had issues I cut the relationship.  You had a rough time but sound like you came through it. All we can do is live and learn.  Decide what we want for our lives.


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## Nathan (May 16, 2022)

> Thinking of divorce but holding back?


Been there / done that.   My present marriage is not "perfect" but I'm giving it 100%.


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## Macfan (May 16, 2022)

No. My wife and I will celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary next month and I expect to finish our journey here together. I admit it hasn't all been smooth sailing but I can also say without hesitation, it's been well worth it in my opinion and I think, and hope, she would say the same. Side note: Not sure if this is relevant or not but neither of us had a prior marriage. Don...


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## OneEyedDiva (May 16, 2022)

I loved my husband but was thinking about divorcing him for a couple of years at least. Irreconcilable differences is a real thing. He was a good, patient man but had ways that made me crazy. When his health started to fail, I knew I couldn't do it then. I stuck by him, took care of him and when he was hospitalized and/or in rehab I visited him daily and made sure he was well taken care of until he passed away.

Good for you for getting out of a marriage that wasn't working! Now you can focus on what makes you happy. Regarding your "but" when "thinking about divorce", keep in mind that if you live in a community property state, if he accrues a lot of debt while you are still legally married, you'd likely be responsible for paying those debts if he doesn't. Check with an attorney about that and if that is the case..file those papers!


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## Teacher Terry (May 25, 2022)

I found out 2 days before Xmas in 2020 that my third husband was cheating again. We lived together for 6 years and married for 17. I was really committed trying to make it work but I am happier without him. Things are tight financially but I have peace and so much less work not having to do everything. He had taken laziness to a art form.


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## WheatenLover (May 26, 2022)

I thought about divorce for decades, but finances and other considerations prevented it. 

When my mother died, I inherited enough money to leave, but Covid and cancer came along. My husband didn't want to follow Covid guidelines (washing hands, wearing masks, etc.), or to help me in any way, so I moved out. That was one huge stress reliever!

We are still married, and we are still friendly. But nothing has changed as far as his attitude toward me in concerned. He wants me to move back in with him, but that is solely for his benefit -- for me it would be moving back in to the pit of hell.


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## JonSR77 (May 26, 2022)

Blessed said:


> I guess I have been sheltered, I have only met a handful of people like that.  Once I figured out they had issues I cut the relationship.  You had a rough time but sound like you came through it. All we can do is live and learn.  Decide what we want for our lives.


I wish I could say that is the case.  I did not come through intact.  I wish I had, but no.


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## JonSR77 (May 26, 2022)

WheatenLover said:


> I thought about divorce for decades, but finances and other considerations prevented it.
> 
> When my mother died, I inherited enough money to leave, but Covid and cancer came along. My husband didn't want to follow Covid guidelines (washing hands, wearing masks, etc.), or to help me in any way, so I moved out. That was one huge stress reliever!
> 
> We are still married, and we are still friendly. But nothing has changed as far as his attitude toward me in concerned. He wants me to move back in with him, but that is solely for his benefit -- for me it would be moving back in to the pit of hell.



very sorry about your experiences.

by all means, stay safe...

take care.


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## JustDave (May 26, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Years ago, divorce was a sign of failure, and tragedy. Today, I believe most people realize that all marriages are not made in heaven. And there is no reason to continue to live unhappily ever after. And to be honest, when some of my friend's announced their divorce, it really wasn't a total shock.


There is nothing wrong with divorce.  I enjoyed my divorce, and my ex did too.  I will admit to a vague feeling of having failed, but that was caused more by the perception society taught me to feel.  Yes, my marriage failed, but my life took a giant leap forward, and I accomplished goals that marriage would not have allowed.  I'm an advocate of divorce.  I also applaud great marriages.  I even envy them.


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## JonSR77 (May 26, 2022)

This morning I saw a man walking a corgie.  I love corgies.  They are just total fun and a nice little ball of crazy.  I stopped the guy and said (which is true), "My ex had a Corgie.  When I left her, the only thing I missed...was the Corgie..."


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## glofran (Jun 11, 2022)

SeaRaven said:


> I'm FINALLY separated after 40+  years.  This should have happened years ago and not after retirement but I can't change that.
> I'm truly happy now that he lives an hour away and I don't see him or deal with him.  When we went to counseling, he refused to talk and just stared at the floor.  I knew it was over.
> How many of you are out there and you want OUT of a long- standing marriage? How many of you have had these thoughts for YEARS but have only confided in a few people or no one at all?
> "Gray divorce" will only continue to climb; the last of the Boomers turn 65 in 2030.    In other words, there are lots of us out there and this type of divorce will become normal.
> ( no offense to those of you with awesome marriages but please don't reply here, start your own thread of "Best.Marriage.Ever.")


I can relate to this in a way. My husband recently told me he wants to move to Italy ( he has some family relatives there.) He has talked about this on and off for several years.) We have been married for almost 40 years. H told me he wasn't happy living here (in the USA. I agreed with him--if he is not happy here, he should find a place to be happy. We only get one chance to live a happy life.
Our marriage has been stale for many years, so time to move on.


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2022)

glofran said:


> I can relate to this in a way. My husband recently told me he wants to move to Italy ( he has some family relatives there.) He has talked about this on and off for several years.) We have been married for almost 40 years. H told me he wasn't happy living here (in the USA. I agreed with him--if he is not happy here, he should find a place to be happy. We only get one chance to live a happy life.
> Our marriage has been stale for many years, so time to move on.


do you think if you moved to Italy with him, it would add some sparkle back into your marriage ?


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## JonSR77 (Jun 11, 2022)

Before divorcing, I do think couples should give it one last shot in couples counseling.  See if that makes a difference.  Just a short delay before that final decision.

Sorry for all the problems and heartache folks endure.

Wishing the best for everyone.


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## bowmore (Jun 11, 2022)

Counseling only works if both partners want it.


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## JonSR77 (Jun 11, 2022)

bowmore said:


> Counseling only works if both partners want it.



sure, makes sense...


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## grahamg (Jun 12, 2022)

Some professional help here, (albeit religious too):
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/cherish-your-spouse-videos-588501/

Quote:
"What does it mean to cherish your spouse?

God created everyone different – this includes you and your spouse. He created each of us to have unique characteristics as part of his grand design and plan. When we cherish our spouse, we appreciate and treasure those unique characteristics and can love them and our Creator in a more meaningful way."


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## C50 (Jun 12, 2022)

I can say while married I lost sight of myself, I was stressed, frustrated, angry all the time, basically very unhappy.  

I swear to you, the very day my then wife moved out it was as if someone flipped a switch in me and let the old me back.  I knew I was unhappy but truly didn't realize the level of despair I was in, until I wasn't.  It's just awful to think how another person can end up making us miserable.

Bless those of us who can find peace and happiness in our later years


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## JustDave (Jun 12, 2022)

Divorce can be a very freeing experience.  Well, it can be any kind of experience I guess.


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## glofran (Jun 13, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> do you think if you moved to Italy with him, it would add some sparkle back into your marriage ?


I cannot make a move move like this. I have several health issues that would not allow me to do this.


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## StarSong (Jun 13, 2022)

Blessed said:


> These days it seems our younger generation just throw in the towel if a problem comes up.


That was said about our generation by our parents and grandparents.  Although I've never needed to be divorced myself, I've observed numerous cases where divorce was a far bigger blessing to the two parties than marriage ever was.  

Marriage shouldn't be considered a lifetime sentence with no chance for parole.


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## grahamg (Jun 13, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Marriage, I was married for 31 years with and we dated for 5 years prior.  Even at a young age I knew being madly in love did not always count.  We had many challenges, ups and downs, I did not expect us to be silly teenagers all our lives.  I think we got through the hard times because we both had the same values, taught to us by our parents.  You have to work at it, make decisions together. Be committed to the vows you made.  These days it seems our younger generation just throw in the towel if a problem comes up.  You have to be prepared to work through things. Most of us have had to do that at work, with relatives and friends, even our children. Why we would think we don't have to work to have a good relationship with our spouse.


Just to be clear, attitudes to divorce have undoubtedly changed enormously in our lifetime, no one can argue against that fact, (no matter whether someone thinks this a good thing or not!).
No fault divorce today means the state no longer sees the behaviour of either parent relevant, and no one can be guilty of anything, (adultery, mental cruelty, abandonment, none of these things are thought important!).
However, in my experience those people observing infidelity in someones partner, especially someone cheating on a friend of theirs, do not think them small matters at all, (all good grounds for divorce under laws going back a few generations too!).
Listening to someone who can present an opinion based upon winning through even difficult times, to enjoy a long and happy marriage should be taken notice of and lauded therefore, (not criticised because they have views differing from what you believe is an infallible position you hold).


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## StarSong (Jun 13, 2022)

grahamg said:


> No fault divorce today means the state no longer sees the behaviour of either parent relevant, and no one can be guilty of anything, (adultery, mental cruelty, abandonment, none of these things are thought important!).


I don't know that the state considers these issues unimportant.  More likely they've learned that it's none of their business why people want to split.  Court cases that require finger pointing and blame laying doesn't work to anyone's benefit, particularly not children and and other parties close to the couple.  

One of my sons and a deeply beloved DIL broke up after 9 years of dating and less than 2 years of marriage.  I still don't know the details but the split was amicable and wanted by both parties.  It's neither my business nor my right to know any more than that.  

They've remarried to spouses who I now realize suit each of them far better.

When a marriage is a poor match, there doesn't need to be a victim and a villain.  Each partner has usually played both roles more than once anyway.


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## mrstime (Jun 13, 2022)

jujube said:


> My parents got divorced after 37 years of marriage.  They remarried less than two years later.  We all just pretended that "the incident" never happened and went back to celebrating their original wedding anniversary.


When I hear about couples who divorce each other then remarry the same spouse, I always say it was a real expensive spat.


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## Gaer (Jun 13, 2022)

Unless it's a 
MAD,
PASSIONATE,
EXTRAORDINARY
LOVE,
it's a waste of time.
There are too many 
mediocre things in life.
LOVE 
should not be one of them.


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## grahamg (Jun 13, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I don't know that the state considers these issues unimportant.  More likely they've learned that it's none of their business why people want to split.  Court cases that require finger pointing and blame laying doesn't work to anyone's benefit, particularly not children and and other parties close to the couple.
> 
> One of my sons and a deeply beloved DIL broke up after 9 years of dating and less than 2 years of marriage.  I still don't know the details but the split was amicable and wanted by both parties.  It's neither my business nor my right to know any more than that.
> 
> ...


You suggest our government has decided its no business of theirs to make a judgement as to where fault lay when a marriage fails, whilst at the very same time our governments have laws denying privacy to anyone between them and their children, (so quite a contrast there!).
It doesn't matter how cruel a husband might have been let's say, but the most innocent mother or father, "and we've got to enquire into everything", (and according to Goldwater, a lady from Canada who is a leading lawyer, "privacy is necessary in close personal relationships"!).


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## StarSong (Jun 13, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You suggest our government has decided its no business of theirs to make a judgement as to where fault lay when a marriage fails, whilst at the very same time our governments have laws denying privacy to anyone between them and their children, (so quite a contrast there!).
> It doesn't matter how cruel a husband might have been let's say, but the most innocent mother or father, "and we've got to enquire into everything", (and according to Goldwater, a lady from Canada who is a leading lawyer, "privacy is necessary in close personal relationships"!).


These are separate matters despite the fact that minor children are often part of marital and divorce landscapes. 

Children are essentially powerless and therefore need protection.  If credible allegations of cruelty, abuse, other crimes or dereliction against minors are reported it is appropriate that they are investigated.  

If two adults change their minds about spending the rest of their lives together, the government shouldn't waste time or resources on the who-shot-John saga of a marriage's deterioration. 

I don't know how it works in the UK, but joint custody is the gold standard in the US unless there are the types of problems I described above, or the child vehemently objects, or the parents work out a different arrangement that the courts approve.


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## grahamg (Jun 13, 2022)

StarSong said:


> These are separate matters despite the fact that minor children are often part of marital and divorce landscapes.
> Children are essentially powerless and therefore need protection.  If credible allegations of cruelty, abuse, other crimes or dereliction against minors are reported it is appropriate that they are investigated.
> If two adults change their minds about spending the rest of their lives together, the government shouldn't waste time or resources on the who-shot-John saga of a marriage's deterioration.
> I don't know how it works in the UK, but joint custody is the gold standard in the US unless there are the types of problems I described above, or the child vehemently objects, or the parents work out a different arrangement that the courts approve.


You state the issues are different, but if the Canadian lady lawyer Goldwater is correct, there is a need for privacy in close personal relationships regardless of anything else, (where there are no child protection issues being raised by anyone at least).
I agree our UK system is different than what happens in the USA, and your individual states have their own statures or rules, (some states including statements about the need for "love" to be shown - a word non existent in any UK legislation of rules, and Sir Bob Geldof when going through his divorce many years ago now was told by his legal tea not to mention the word for fear the judge would interpret what he said in a negative way, and of course \Bob completely ignored him and stated both he and Paula Yates loved their children!).


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## StarSong (Jun 14, 2022)

I can't comment further because I successfully evaded that particular adventure in this lifetime.  My second hand experience comes from friends and relatives who are divorced.  For the most part, their child custody arrangements went smoothly.  Yes, a few hiccups, but not too bad.  It sometimes got rough when one of the parents developed new love interests.  

By my observations, the most successful co-parents broke up their marriages well before reaching the point of detesting the sight of one another.  They're more likely to remain civil (and sometimes friendly) and aren't strongly focused on punishing each other.  

Bad or deteriorating matches - whether marriages, jobs, houses, neighborhoods, home decor, autos, clothing, shoes, whatever, almost never improve over time.  Our resentment only increases.


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## grahamg (Jun 14, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I can't comment further because I successfully evaded that particular adventure in this lifetime.  My second hand experience comes from friends and relatives who are divorced.  For the most part, their child custody arrangements went smoothly.  Yes, a few hiccups, but not too bad.  It sometimes got rough when one of the parents developed new love interests.
> 
> By my observations, the most successful co-parents broke up their marriages well before reaching the point of detesting the sight of one another.  They're more likely to remain civil (and sometimes friendly) and aren't strongly focused on punishing each other.
> 
> Bad or deteriorating matches - whether marriages, jobs, houses, neighborhoods, home decor, autos, clothing, shoes, whatever, almost never improve over time.  Our resentment only increases.


The woman running the creche or Sunday school at our local church told me she would feel threatened if she saw her child hugging the dad, after she had divorced or split from him.
If she right, and I've no reason to doubt her word, then my argument in favour oof giving decent parents in the UK some legal tights, (as in statute rights), becomes stronger in my view.
It staggers me that we look very in a modern, sophisticated country, and yet deny all parental rights and no one seems to think they or their neighbours deserve them!


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## Jeni (Jun 14, 2022)

I have spoke and observed many older long term married couples and most IMO are not happy but institutionalized....
They know they could file for divorce but with freedom comes maybe financial difficulty and other items they may not see right away when thinking of divorce. 
So they stay the course........ smile for the family photos and play the part .... It is a miserable existence....


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## grahamg (Jun 14, 2022)

Jeni said:


> I have spoke and observed many older long term married couples and most IMO are not happy but institutionalized....
> They know they could file for divorce but with freedom comes maybe financial difficulty and other items they may not see right away when thinking of divorce.
> So they stay the course........ smile for the family photos and play the part .... It is a miserable existence....


My guru on this subject is called Desmond Morris, the author of many books on the subject of human behaviour and he has always taken a very different view to the one you're promulgating.


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## Jeni (Jun 14, 2022)

grahamg said:


> My guru on this subject is called Desmond Morris, the author of many books on the subject of human behaviour and he has always taken a very different view to the one you're promulgating.


i am just noting observations both close family and many many friends .......


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## grahamg (Jun 14, 2022)

Jeni said:


> i am just noting observations both close family and many many friends .......


Just in case it is of interest here is a link to an article mentioning Desmond Morris's views on divorce etc., (apologies this one is quite long).:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232565747.pdf

Here are some quotes taken from a website where Desmond Morris was being interviewed:
http://www.cosmoetica.com/DSI8.htm

"I was trained as a zoologist studying animal behaviour, so when I turned my attention to the human animal I used the same observational methods. I watched what people do rather than listened to what they say. The book was unusual because it was a zoology of human beings, rather than a psychology. I deliberately ignored the ways in which human beings are different from other animals and concentrated just on those aspects that we share with other animals- mating, feeding, aggression, play, sleep, etc., Darwin said humans were descended from animals, but I was saying, no, we are just animals, and no more than animals. But a very remarkable species, all the same.

*Interviewer: That’s an excellent point, that we are not ‘descended from animals,’ but ARE ‘animals.’ Can you tell me how your subsequent fame from it affected later works? And what things in the book have held up the best against subsequent decades’ research, and what aspects of the book look hopelessly dated?*

DM: When I was asked to revise the book, the only thing that I felt was dated was the population figure for the human species. When I wrote the book 40 years ago the world population stood at about 3000 million. Today it is over 6000 million. Apart from that, I thought that the book had stood the test of time remarkably well. In fact, since it was written, there has been a much greater acceptance of genetic factors influencing human behaviour. At the time I wrote the book that idea was revolutionary, but today it is not."

Break

I was unusually lucky with my mother who always encouraged me to do whatever I was passionate about. In this world there are ‘no’ mothers and ‘yes’ mothers. The ‘no’ mothers keep on saying ‘stop that,’ ‘don't do that,’ while the ‘yes’ mothers say (regardless of their true feelings) ‘how interesting, dear.’ During her entire 98 years of life, I don’t recall my own mother ever criticizing anything I had done, even when, occasionally, I suspect she was not entirely happy about something."


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## grahamg (Jun 14, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Just in case it is of interest here is a link to an article mentioning Desmond Morris's views on divorce etc., (apologies this one is quite long).:
> https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232565747.pdf
> 
> Here are some quotes taken from a website where Desmond Morris was being interviewed:
> ...


BTW the relevance of Desmond Morris to the question of divorce, and the relaxation of divorce rules removing any questions about fault, even where there might have been unbelievable cruelty perpetrated by one or other spouses, is that Desmond Morris stated when all these laws were being relaxed was that it "would lead to a generation of heart broken people, because in evolutionary terms forming lifelong bonds had been essential to the survival of any off spring or children, due to their prolonged adolescence in the human species, and human nature is something that doesn't easily change over millennia", (or words to that effect!).


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## Teacher Terry (Jun 15, 2022)

Jeni said:


> i am just noting observations both close family and many many friends .......


I totally agree Jeni as I have seen very few couples that are happy in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I totally agree Jeni as I have seen very few couples that are happy in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


Well then you're in disagreement with my "guru" Desmond Morris too, but never mind hey!

There are still many countries where divorce laws remain harsh, or for cultural reasons marriages last, and I'm told in some of them illnesses such as Alzheimers is unheard of, so one would imagine they are happy enough about that fact!


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## Trish (Jun 15, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I totally agree Jeni as *I have seen very few couples that are happy *in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


So have I, including folk who didn't want to retire because they dreaded spending more time with their partner!  But, at the same time I have known many single people who are unhappy and miss having a partner so, I just wonder whether, especially as we get older, there is a feeling of disappointment however our lives have worked out?


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Trish said:


> So have I, including folk who didn't want to retire because they dreaded spending more time with their partner!  But, at the same time I have known many single people who are unhappy and miss having a partner so, I just wonder whether, especially as we get older, there is a feeling of disappointment however our lives have worked out?


The truth is as social beings having a partner is 100% better than loneliness, (even negative relationships are said to be better than none in most cases I believe, but I would suggest lets allow the "current orthodoxy", attacking all kinds of institutions carry on unabated, as all kinds of indicators continue to show the harm being done!
(I'll try to come back to you with some examples of the things I'm talking about, before anyone jumps on the bandwagon of suggesting I'm just choosing to run down the young, or whoever else it is I'm supposed to be condemning to an unhappy life, whilst they seek the "universal good" of divorce (as they see it!).


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## Trish (Jun 15, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The truth is as social beings having a partner is 100% better than loneliness, (even negative relationships are said to be better than none in most cases I believe, but I would suggest lets allow the "current orthodoxy", attacking all kinds of institutions carry on unabated, as all kinds of indicators continue to show the harm being done!
> (I'll try to come back to you with some examples of the things I'm talking about, before anyone jumps on the bandwagon of suggesting I'm just choosing to run down the young, or whoever else it is I'm supposed to be condemning to an unhappy life, whilst they seek the "universal good" of divorce (as they see it!).



People can of course be lonely with or without a partner and, I think, that being in a negative relationship can be altogether more lonely than living solo.


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## katlupe (Jun 15, 2022)

Trish said:


> People can of course be lonely with or without a partner and, I think, that being in a negative relationship can be altogether more lonely than living solo.


Exactly!


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## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The truth is as social beings having a partner is 100% better than loneliness, even negative relationships are said to be better than none in most cases.


I have no idea why I should believe that to be the truth.


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

JustDave said:


> I have no idea why I should believe that to be the truth.


If you become aware of "transactional analysis", (a way of looking at human relations developed by a US psychologist I believe), you'll learn this is one of the tenets of this very well recognised system, and used by professionals of all kinds and widely taught across the world, then you will know why "negative" is better than "nothing"!


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Trish said:


> People can of course be lonely with or without a partner and, I think, that being in a negative relationship can be altogether more lonely than living solo.


If there is no love shown, or no love left between the couple, it can all become a perfect hell, I'll certainly agree with that view.

Observing couples who fall out all the time, thus seem unhappy or ready for a divorce can be misleading I believe, hence the comments above can mean nothing or be very unreliable at least!

Oprah Winfrey and Phil the psychologist famously helped couples realise they'd allowed their partners to slip in their list of priorities, when they'd become completely unable to appreciate the "negative ways in which they'd started acting towards their spouses", (putting all sorts of things in front of the ones they once loved, and could do again!).


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2022)

Can't imagine people staying together when they're miserable.  

It seems to me that most people in my life and on these boards who've stayed in long term marriages (including those who are now widowed) describe happy marriages.  

Yes, there are a few here who say they're stuck in bad marriages, but the vast majority who've stayed for the long term did so because they're happy with their spouses.


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## Don M. (Jun 15, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Can't imagine people staying together when they're miserable.
> 
> It seems to me that most people in my life and on these boards who've stayed in long term marriages (including those who are now widowed) describe happy marriages.
> 
> Yes, there are a few here who say they're stuck in bad marriages, but the vast majority who've stayed for the long term did so because they're happy with their spouses.



Long term marriage, IMO, requires the "ability" to "adapt"....by Both members.  We've been together, for so long, that the days when we used to 'cuddle" are pretty much in the past.  We each have our favorite interests and hobbies, and spend much of our time doing that.  We give each other any support that is needed, yet give each other plenty of "space".  So far, things are going well.  

I haven't seen any "statistics" regarding the financial impact that divorce has on people, but I suspect that divorce is one of the biggest reasons why so many are living in, or near poverty.  After all, just the cost of maintaining two households substantially reduces the chances of being able to save for a nice retirement.


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Can't imagine people staying together when they're miserable.
> It seems to me that most people in my life and on these boards who've stayed in long term marriages (including those who are now widowed) describe happy marriages.
> Yes, there are a few here who say they're stuck in bad marriages, but the vast majority who've stayed for the long term did so because they're happy with their spouses.


Would you still be content, should the number of divorces equal the number of marriages, (so that statistically 100% of marriages will fail you could say), so long as you, and the individuals, or each one of those former couples declare how much happier they are?
Why have such a thing as marriage in those circumstances so many appear to argue for nowadays?


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## Blessed (Jun 15, 2022)

Come on Graham, that is not a question that makes any sense.  If two are happy in their marriage, that is not something that would happen.

If my husband could come back from the dead, the only reason I would divorce him would guarantee he would survive cancer.  I will go further and say, if he could find that bargain, had to marry a beautiful 29 year old to be saved.  I would be fine, at least he would be here.  I could at least have the joy to see him and his son together.


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Would you still be content, *should the number of divorces equal the number of marriages, (so that statistically 100% of marriages will fail you could say*s), so long as you, and the individuals, or each one of those former couples declare how much happier they are?
> Why have such a thing as marriage in those circumstances so many appear to argue for nowadays?


Your bitterness shapes your perspective on marriages, child custody laws and family courts.  Please understand that your bad experiences aren't necessarily the norm and that many people have had good marriages.  Among those who haven't, many have found divorce laws, child custody settlements, and family courts reasonably fair and accommodating.  

Since statistically nowhere near 100% of marriages fail, I'm not going to bother punching through the straw man argument you've postulated.


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## Happy Heart (Jun 15, 2022)

officerripley said:


> Thank for the good thoughts. One thing about our friends: they have grown children who I think might be stepping in soon to help. I am afraid though that their situation or something like it will indeed be my fate since my Huzz and I have never had children; I'm just hoping that I get Alzheimers or dementia before he does since he's a foot taller and 100 lb. heavier than I; I can just see me trying to stop him from driving, wandering around all night, trying to go outside unclothed, etc...yeah, right; he's stubborn now and that only gets worse as these old men get older--proven to me by my grandfather, father and stepfather--even before they get Alzheimers. I guess some guys hate getting older even more than women do.


Women are stronger which why we have the babies!


----------



## Jeni (Jun 15, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I totally agree Jeni as I have seen very few couples that are happy in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


I find many who simply do not want to see it..... they want to believe mom/ dad or grandpa and grandma are happy so they ignore the signs
Many senior couples i know "pretend" fairly well.......
one lady i walk with creates these elaborate stories of how "happy" they are................... after her husband already told the neighbors he can not stand her. She has be clueless that most KNOW his true feelings ...... why he finds anything to do to be away from her. 

retirement funds and savings split is a REAL concern.... maybe one spouse had a better plan at work etc ...some get angry the other person does not want to pretend and really want to fight over every last dime ...
for many at a certain age people do not want to find a part time job or item to have income.....
Many do not want to chance being poor in their golden years.



Trish said:


> People can of course be lonely with or without a partner and, I think, that being in a negative relationship can be altogether more lonely than living solo.


i have seen this too...... it is sad but true.


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## Jules (Jun 15, 2022)

For those who think that some people are putting on an elaborate ruse of having a happy marriage, maybe they just don’t want to air their grievances or dirty laundry in public for everyone.


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Come on Graham, that is not a question that makes any sense.  If two are happy in their marriage, that is not something that would happen.
> If my husband could come back from the dead, the only reason I would divorce him would guarantee he would survive cancer.  I will go further and say, if he could find that bargain, had to marry a beautiful 29 year old to be saved.  I would be fine, at least he would be here.  I could at least have the joy to see him and his son together.


The question is still fair whether it is rhetorical or ever likely to happen, (and there was leeway in the manner it was framed to take account of the "happy couples who will never miss to divorce", or "those couples happy enough with their choices to stick to their public commitment to their spouse and the person they once thought they loved enough to have a child with them, and work through any problems"!).


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Jules said:


> For those who think that some people are putting on an elaborate ruse of having a happy marriage, maybe they just don’t want to air their grievances or dirty laundry in public for everyone.


There may be all sorts of reasons why people say and do anything, most especially related to divorce or separation from a partner they once thought they loved and loved them, (admitting fault to oneself and/or others can be high on impossible very often for many folks I suspect).


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Your bitterness shapes your perspective on marriages, child custody laws and family courts.  Please understand that your bad experiences aren't necessarily the norm and that many people have had good marriages.  Among those who haven't, many have found divorce laws, child custody settlements, and family courts reasonably fair and accommodating.
> Since statistically nowhere near 100% of marriages fail, I'm not going to bother punching through the straw man argument you've postulated.


Never mind punching anything, because nothing so many pro, or ultra pro divorce people ever say, or  have ever posted on this thread ever shows any inclination to worry at all about the undermining of the institution of marriage, (every country on the planet refusing to accept the liberation of divorce laws to the extent our countries have done do not necessarily have to be wrong and people almost willing divorce upon others right, or at least telling them how good it will be for them and society - "even the children"!).


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Happy Heart said:


> Women are stronger which why we have the babies!


My old boss said "one man in a hundred is a leader of men, the other 99% are followers of women"!, (so I suspect he'd have agreed with you to that extent, as would I too, though don't kid yourself it applies all the time!   ).


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

Jeni said:


> I find many who simply do not want to see it..... they want to believe mom/ dad or grandpa and grandma are happy so they ignore the signs
> Many senior couples i know "pretend" fairly well.......
> one lady i walk with creates these elaborate stories of how "happy" they are................... after her husband already told the neighbors he can not stand her. She has be clueless that most KNOW his true feelings ...... why he finds anything to do to be away from her.
> retirement funds and savings split is a REAL concern.... maybe one spouse had a better plan at work etc ...some get angry the other person does not want to pretend and really want to fight over every last dime ...
> ...


What would the pope say to you about this, or the Dalai Lama, or any great or notable thinker, would all take your view, when around us all there are so many signs of distress often contributed to by broken marriages or relationships, (childhood obesity, type 2 diabetes rates in young people here soaring, so much breakdown between fathers and their children one imagines no one truly can love those children as they should be loved, "be I bitter or not, it ain't a good record for anyone with any sense to survey"!).


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Never mind punching anything, because nothing so many pro, or ultra pro divorce people ever say, or  have ever posted on this thread ever shows any inclination to worry at all about the undermining of the institution of marriage, (every country on the planet refusing to accept the liberation of divorce laws to the extent our countries have done do not necessarily have to be wrong and people almost willing divorce upon others right, or at least telling them how good it will be for them and society - "even the children"!).





grahamg said:


> What would the pope say to you about this, or the Dalai Lama, or any great or notable thinker, would all take your view, when around us all there are so many signs of distress often contributed to by broken marriages or relationships, (childhood obesity, type 2 diabetes rates in young people here soaring, so much breakdown between fathers and their children one imagines no one truly can love those children as they should be life bed, "be I bitter or not, it ain't a good record for anyone with any sense to survey"!).



There's a difference between being "pro or ultra pro divorce" (which I'm not) and being in favor of healthy, happy relationships (which I am).   A government or culture that forces people to remain together when they're in misery does nobody any good, including and especially the offspring of that relationship.   

I've yet to meet a child of an unhappy marriage that stayed together who thought it worked out well for the children.   Myself included.


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## grahamg (Jun 15, 2022)

StarSong said:


> There's a difference between being "pro or ultra pro divorce" (which I'm not) and being in favor of healthy, happy relationships (which I am).   A government or culture that forces people to remain together when they're in misery does nobody any good, including and especially the offspring of that relationship.
> I've yet to meet a child of an unhappy marriage that stayed together who thought it worked out well for the children.   Myself included.


How would you really know when you say "I've yet to meet a child,...., etc., etc., etc.," whether you knew everything there was to know, or might need to know, in order to form a fair opinion?

To do so you'd need to violate the Canadian lawyers Goldwater statement or view that privacy in close personal relationships is necessary, to start with, but there's far more to worry anyone interested in the truth, (and the "whole truth" especially!).

Julia Tugenhat wrote a book about the way children and young people felt about their fathers, or not seeing their fathers, (succeeding in doing this despite of opposition from the authorities, or at least without their support, though she still managed to investigate about twenty cases).

Why should she be opposed is a first question, and then her findings showed just how far some of those children went to hide their true feeling about being excluded from their dads lives for whatever reason, and the only way Julia managed to discover what they really thought was when the children had enough confidence in her to know whatever they said would go no further, (certainly not back to their mothers or other family members).

Then there are the fathers rights groups like Fathers 4 Justice who routinely tell dads to falsely declare whatever the courts or court system wishes to hear, including admitting to causing abuse of some kind, just so that in doing so those in authority become satisfied, and allow them contact with their kids again in whatever circumstances demanded, (contact centres being one possibility, so similar in style to prison visits with the same level of supervision and lack of privacy). How can a legal system redeem itself if at least one party, or even whole section of the community,( i.e. the dads), routinely lie, and give false tales, and what cynicism it shows about the legal system, those who work in it, and the law in this country, on behalf of so many!

I could go on further, but I notice many folks in this argument refuse to concede any points, (like the need for privacy etc.), so I'll save my breath, and content myself that some feel so convinced they're right and know everything about me, or sufficient anyway, that I can be labelled "bitter" so easily, (proving again to me the need for a modest change in our family laws in order to try to protect decent parents from unjust accusations and assertions, of this and similar kinds!).


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## Teacher Terry (Jun 16, 2022)

There was a time when to death do us part was probably 20 years at the most. People are living so much longer that it’s difficult but not impossible for people to be happily married for life. I stayed with my second husband until all 3 kids were adults because I believed it was best for my family. I dragged him to therapy many times trying to make it work. With my first marriage we were both just too young.  I was happy for many years in marriage # 3. When things changed for the worse I hung in there trying to make it work. I would have stayed forever had he not been a serial cheater and brought home 2 stds during Covid.  This was before the vaccine and I was in a high risk group. That’s the end and surprisingly I am happier although poorer.


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> There was a time when to death do us part was probably 20 years at the most. People are living so much longer that it’s difficult but not impossible for people to be happily married for life. I stayed with my second husband until all 3 kids were adults because I believed it was best for my family. I dragged him to therapy many times trying to make it work. With my first marriage we were both just too young.  I was happy for many years in marriage # 3. When things changed for the worse I hung in there trying to make it work. I would have stayed forever had he not been a serial cheater and brought home 2 stds during Covid.  This was before the vaccine and I was in a high risk group. That’s the end and surprisingly I am happier although poorer.


You've made some very good arguments there, and I can say that as a divorced person myself, who feels my life has undoubtedly benefitted from no longer being in that marriage regardless of the less beneficial consequences going with it, (so if my views on divorce don't sound sufficiently nuanced, that is my failure to articulate everything as well as I might have done).

When your views are under incessant attack from those who appear to think they have all the answers, is my excuse, and whether they like it or not, or my saying it or not, would not worry or wish to change the system if divorce rates became equal to the numbers marrying, (and regardless of all the other things I keep trying to raise with them, or anyone interested).


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

This article by Libby Purves who writes regularly for The Times newspaper vaguely relates to the thread topic:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/people-will-hurt-your-feelings-deal-with-it-6hkxtj67r

"Reflecting on this painfully acquired adult skill of emotion management and "getting over yourself" reminded me of something else: last week's pharmaceutical neuro-scientific news from Oxford University's Dr Anna Machin. She roams "the frontiers of love research" and the chemistry of attraction.

Apparently a dose of MDMA (Ecstasy) has been used in marriage guidance to make couples fonder.

And within a decade, she tells us, people looking for love and connection will "squirt oxytocin up their nose before they go out on a Saturday night, at the same time as having a glass of prosecco",

Hideous. Given the existing Gadarene rush towards drunken binges, party drugs and instant hook-ups with a swipe-right stranger, followed by betrayal, ghosting, emotional dismay and even violence, it doesn't feel quite the moment to layer on more psychoactive drugs and dependencies. Not that the meds won't work: they probably will, on their own terms. Few modems reach my time of life without experiencing at least a spell on antidepressants (a useful crutch, but no way to live) or some weird paranoid reaction to a prescription-opioid: yes, emotions are influenceable, all right.

So there will be a clamour for artificial dopamine and endorphins, *because the peacetime West suffers several delusions: that everyone deserves unbroken happy mental "wellness" in a grievous world, that ****** passion is irresistible ("bigger than both of us"), and that a domestic partnership must be calmly harmonious for decades, and promptly binned if it isn't. *These superhuman demands will make over-the-counter happy pills demanded as a "human right" in no time.

That may suit governments. Ninety years ago, in _Brave New World, _Aldous Huxley predicted a population drugged on "soma", happily promiscuous and emotionally null, unlikely to carve out - either in sex or friendship - the gritty reality of fidelity, intellectual connection and the commitment that sparks independent thought, hence dissent.

Squirt oxytocin up your nose. Couple and giggle, never scale the difficult emotional steps of humiliation, self-doubt, grief, yearning and frustration. It's probably coming. And who knows? This brave-new-world delegation of human feelings to pharmaceuticals might even enable theatres to pump a dense oxytocin mist into the auditorium, making critics feel love and eloquent adoration, bypassing the higher brain functions. The plays might get worse, mind you, but troublesome critics will have gone the way Of the smallpox virus.""


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## StarSong (Jun 16, 2022)

grahamg said:


> How would you really know when you say "I've yet to meet a child,...., etc., etc., etc.," whether you knew everything there was to know, or might need to know, in order to form a fair opinion?


I apologize for not being clear.  I was referring to children of bad marriages who were adults by the time I met them or it came up for discussion.  As an adult, I would never discuss parents' marriage with an underage child.  

Adults often describe their childhoods to each other. Those who were the product of a bad marriage or a marriage that frayed badly over the years speak of what that tension was like and how they'd prayed their parents would divorce. More than one admitted wishing one parent would die so that the rest of the family could have some peace.


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

Grahamg wrote:
"How would you really know when you say "I've yet to meet a child,...., etc., etc., etc.," whether you knew everything there was to know, or might need to know, in order to form a fair opinion?"


StarSong said:


> I apologize for not being clear.  I was referring to children of bad marriages who were adults by the time I met them or it came up for discussion.  As an adult, I would never discuss parents' marriage with an underage child.
> Adults often describe their childhoods to each other. Those who were the product of a bad marriage or a marriage that frayed badly over the years speak of what that tension was like and how they'd prayed their parents would divorce. More than one admitted wishing one parent would die so that the rest of the family could have some peace.


Although we could discuss anecdotes till the cows come home I'd still believe there would be another way of looking at whatever any child, (or child of a divorced family, or a family they believe it would have been better for them had their parents divorced who is now an adult) had to say.

However, "using one case I am familiar with to a fairly large extent", it is true those court appointed officials called to comment upon the behaviour of the estranged spouses, (and other aspects), chose to ignore one of the former partners deliberately lying to them, and made no mention of it in their report, (though they seemed very annoyed at the time).

The lesson a child in these circumstances might reasonably have learned from this is that it is okay to lie in family proceedings, (or for one party to lie). Presumably they learn too it is okay for them to lie, (is this an important/desirable lesson in life, or can it be negative for society as a whole?).

The child learns too that being unfaithful to a partner, or multiple partners, can mean you gain more control over your family/children, and it can help ensure no former partner can "threaten" or even "moderate" the behaviour of the "winning spouse", (the one the court appointed officials chose to support).

Then there is all this business I keep raising about "who loves those children", those whose experiences due to divorce seem to be highly prejudicial to them, and their well being? 

The law and the legal system can destroy loving relationships, but cannot make them develop or recreate them when its done so much damage, so it is highly likely I'd say a majority of children lose out in terms of who loves them after divorce. In the case I'm familiar with it is true the child tried to discourage their non resident parent from even telling them they were loved, because they knew the parent they lived with did not like this to happen, (or felt threatened by it).

Finally referring to this same case I believe the child's view was that her upbringing was "okay", but not as good (or at least certainly not better), than if their parents had been able to live together.


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

Another great thinker from the past (Sir Thomas More), described marriage in the following way in the book Utopia:
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literat...-the-discourse-on-utopia-marriage-and-divorce

An extract from Utopia, (to scare all you strongly pro divorce folks with - think yourselves lucky you were not born 500 years ago):

_"Their women are not allowed to marry before eighteen, and their men not before twenty-two. If any of them be guilty of unlawful intercourse before marriage, they are severely punished, and they are not allowed to marry unless they can obtain an especial warrant from the prince. Such disorderly conduct also bringeth a severe reproach on the master and mistress of the family in which it happened; for it is concluded that they have been negligent in their duty. Their reason for punishing this so severely is, because they think, were they not strictly restrained from all vagrant appetites, very few would engage in a state, in which they hazard the peace of their whole lives by being tied to one person, and are obliged to endure all the inconveniencies with which that state is accompanied.

In matching, they adopt a plan which appears to us very extravagant, yet is constantly observed among them and accounted very wise. Before marriage, a grave matron presenteth the bride (be she virgin or widow) naked, to the bridegroom; and after that, some grave man presenteth the bridegroom naked to the bride. We laughed at this, and condemned it as very indecent. They, on the other hand, wondered at the folly of mankind in all other countries; who, if they buy but an inferior horse, examine him all over and take off his trappings; yet a wife, on whom dependeth the happiness of the remainder of life, they take upon trust, regarding only her face, and leaving the rest of her body covered, where contagious and loathsome disorders may lie concealed. All men are not so wise as to choose a woman only for her good qualities; and even the wise consider the body as adding not a little to the mind. It is certain the clothes may conceal some deformity which may alienate a man from his wife when it is too late to part with her. If such a thing be discovered after marriage, he hath no remedy but patience. They therefore think it reasonable, that good care should be taken to guard against such mischievous deception.

There was the more reason for this regulation among them, because they are the only people of those parts who allow not polygamy or divorce, except in case of adultery or insufferable perverseness. In these cases the senate dissolveth the marriage, and granteth the injured leave to marry again; but the guilty are made infamous and never allowed the privilege of a second marriage. No one is suffered to put away his wife against her inclination, on account of any misfortune which may have befallen her person. They esteem it the height of cruelty and treachery to abandon either of the married pair, when they most need the tenderness of their partner; especially in the case of old age, which bringeth many diseases with it, and is itself a disease. But it often happens, that, when a married pair do not agree, they separate by mutual consent, and find others with whom they hope to live more happily. Yet this is not done without leave from the senate, which never alloweth a divorce without a strict inquiry, by the senators and their wives, into the grounds on which it is desired. Even when they are satisfied as to the reasons of it, the matter proceedeth but slowly, for they are persuaded that a too ready permission of new marriages, would greatly impair the kind intercourse of the married.

 They severely punish those who defile the marriage-bed. If both the offenders be married, they are divorced, and the injured may intermarry, or with whom else they please; but the adulterer and adultress are condemned to slavery. Yet if the injured cannot conquer the love of the offender, they may still live together, the partner following to the labour to which the slave is condemned; and sometimes the repentance of the condemned, and the unaltered kindness of the injured, have prevailed with the prince to take off the sentence. But who relapse after they are once pardoned, are punished with death."_


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## Michael Z (Jun 16, 2022)

I will leave my wife. In a box. That was the agreement 32 years ago.


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## Geezer Garage (Jun 16, 2022)

Please wait until she's dead. 



Michael Z said:


> I will leave my wife. In a box. That was the agreement 32 years ago.


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## JustDave (Jun 16, 2022)

grahamg said:


> If you become aware of "transactional analysis", (a way of looking at human relations developed by a US psychologist I believe), you'll learn this is one of the tenets of this very well recognised system, and used by professionals of all kinds and widely taught across the world, then you will know why "negative" is better than "nothing"!


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Grahamg wrote: "If you become aware of "transactional analysis", (a way of looking at human relations developed by a US psychologist I believe), you'll learn this is one of the tenets of this very well recognised system, and used by professionals of all kinds and widely taught across the world, then you will know why "negative" is better than "nothing"!"


You'll find this website on another section of the forum, but for your convenience I'm posting it here as well.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/transactional-analysis

Quote:
"Transactional analysis believes that *adult to adult communication/ transactions leads to the most effective and healthy communication thus relationships with others*. The different types of transactions below explain how interactions from the different ego states interact with each other."

"When this theory is applied to adults, theorizing that men and women experience recognition-hunger and a need for strokes. However, while infants may desire strokes that are primarily physical, an adult may be contented with other forms of recognition, such as nods, winks, or smiles."

"While strokes may be positive or negative, it is theorized that it is better to receive a negative stroke than no stroke at all. When one person asks another out on a date, for example, and receives a flat refusal, that person may find the refusal to be less damaging than a complete lack of acknowledgment."


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## C50 (Jun 16, 2022)

Happy Heart said:


> Women are stronger which why we have the babies!


That's not true, they do it so they can demand pampering for nine months!  I always say if guys could do it we would get in done in a couple of weeks, tops!
(don't be hating on me now)


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## Blessed (Jun 16, 2022)

Give me a break, women work a full time job, Keep up with the house, cleaning, laundry, ironing, cooking, grocery shopping. I did not ask or expect to be pampered.  

You do not know how it is to pregnant, the fatique, the morning sickness, the backaches.  Let alone push something 8 or 10 pounds out of your  pe***.  
When you can do all those things, feel free to speak up.

Sorry, don't speak of things you have not done or can't ever do.


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Give me a break, women work a full time job, Keep up with the house, cleaning, laundry, ironing, cooking, grocery shopping. I did not ask or expect to be pampered.
> You do not know how it is to pregnant, the fatique, the morning sickness, the backaches.  Let alone push something 8 or 10 pounds out of your  pe***.
> When you can do all those things, feel free to speak up.
> Sorry, don't speak of things you have not done or can't ever do.


Mmmmmmm, yes, of course, of course, 100%, yes!
(he was joking though you know?!  )


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## Blessed (Jun 16, 2022)

No, I did not know he was joking. Not something I would think one would joke about.  If so, forgive my over reaction.  
Either way, just so all the guys know, it is a lot of hard work to bring a child into the world.


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## grahamg (Jun 16, 2022)

Blessed said:


> No, I did not know he was joking. Not something I would think one would joke about.  If so, forgive my over reaction.
> Either way, just so all the guys know, it is a lot of hard work to bring a child into the world.


My own father used to say if he had to give birth  (or men like him had to give birth), "there would be a lot less children in the world"!

This is maybe because he kind of witnessed what my mother went through on her first pregnancy, a home birth where the child sadly didn't survive, (due to complications that may have been possible to rectify in hospital, but our health services post WWII were probably inadequate, though they did all they could for my mother during her six subsequent pregnancies, all successful including a set of twins).


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## JustDave (Jun 16, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You'll find this website on another section of the forum, but for your convenience I'm posting it here as well.
> https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/types/transactional-analysis
> 
> Quote:
> ...


Thanks, I've read the book and have been aware of Transactional Analysis since the early 70s.


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## grahamg (Jun 17, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Thanks, I've read the book and have been aware of Transactional Analysis since the early 70s.


So we wont argue that at least some experts feel "negative strokes" can be more beneficial than being ignored etc.


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## grahamg (Jun 17, 2022)

C50 said:


> That's not true, they do it so they can demand pampering for nine months!  I always say if guys could do it we would get in done in a couple of weeks, tops!
> (don't be hating on me now)


Have you any more observations about child birth to impart, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them,  (..., did someone suggest its like passing a coconut sized poo!)?


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## C50 (Jun 17, 2022)

Blessed said:


> No, I did not know he was joking. Not something I would think one would joke about.  If so, forgive my over reaction.
> Either way, just so all the guys know, it is a lot of hard work to bring a child into the world.


Blessed and Grahamg, good gosh I didn't mean to upset anyone, I certainly apologize if you found my post offensive,  I was 100% joking.  I have a great deal of respect for women,  more than I could articulate with my limited writing skills.

Mea culpa


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## Blessed (Jun 17, 2022)

C50 said:


> Blessed and Grahamg, good gosh I didn't mean to upset anyone, I certainly apologize if you found my post offensive,  I was 100% joking.  I have a great deal of respect for women,  more than I could articulate with my limited writing skills.
> 
> Mea culpa


Forgive my rather harsh reply, I did not know you were joking. I don't think you upset Graham, I think his reply is just to keep the thread interesting.


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## grahamg (Jun 17, 2022)

C50 said:


> Blessed and Grahamg, good gosh I didn't mean to upset anyone, I certainly apologize if you found my post offensive,  I was 100% joking.  I have a great deal of respect for women,  more than I could articulate with my limited writing skills.
> Mea culpa


Definitely no offence whatsoever here either, (and apologies for my brusque style quoting your post, not intended to do anything other than encourage you to come up with more jokes "I'm sure we'll all appreciate", ..., and if you dont I'll se if I can find some!  ).


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## grahamg (Jun 17, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Thanks, I've read the book and have been aware of Transactional Analysis since the early 70s.


Use it much btw?


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## grahamg (Jun 17, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Another great thinker from the past (Sir Thomas More), described marriage in the following way in the book Utopia:
> https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literat...-the-discourse-on-utopia-marriage-and-divorce
> 
> An extract from Utopia, (to scare all you strongly pro divorce folks with - think yourselves lucky you were not born 500 years ago):
> ...


I thought this "dry old book", (as my then wife called it!), would generate more interest here,...., those were the days hey, "during the patriarchy"!


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 18, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I totally agree Jeni as I have seen very few couples that are happy in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


And @Jeni  I knew two people who divorced but still lived in the same house as their exes. One was a constituent with whom I had to call possible case to or receive them from him. We were in different parts of the state and developed a friendly working relationship over the phone. I used to tease him asking what his dates thought of his arrangement...did they think he was lying to them? He never seemed to have a problem in that area.

Another was a co-worker. She openly dated someone else and her ex and children were (or seemed to be) fine with it. She said she still cared for her ex, he was a good man but the had irreconcilable differences. She said they got along better after the divorce. Eventually he moved out. I'm pretty sure in each case financial issues had something to do with it.


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## JustDave (Jun 18, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Use it much btw?


Never.  There are so many more effective theories of self growth available.  The popularity of the book was derived from a bit of an over simplification of communication, but a very clever theory.  Like everyone else, I enjoyed the buzz it created throughout the personal growth community in the 1970s with its unique explanation of communication types, and for a while, I went around observing the various transactions in my personal environment, but it ends there for me, and I think for most others.  Once your own transaction types are identified, there are any number of methods to deal with them, and this is where the real growth takes place.  I have no doubt Transactional Aanalysis has value to certain people, because we are all different.  Clever, but not my cup of tea.


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## JustDave (Jun 18, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> And @Jeni  I knew two people who divorced but still lived in the same house as their exes. One was a constituent with whom I had to call possible case to or receive them from him. We were in different parts of the state and developed a friendly working relationship over the phone. I used to tease him asking what his dates thought of his arrangement...did they think he was lying to them? He never seemed to have a problem in that area.
> 
> Another was a co-worker. She openly dated someone else and her ex and children were (or seemed to be) fine with it. She said she still cared for her ex, he was a good man but the had irreconcilable differences. She said they got along better after the divorce. Eventually he moved out. I'm pretty sure in each case financial issues had something to do with it.


When I got divorced we lived in the same house while we both looked for new quarters.  One of us would keep the house when the other found another house to buy.  I knew that would be me, but my wife did look too.  This arrangement lasted for a month, maybe two, and when we finally met with a lawyer, he was taking down personal information.  He asked my wife for her address, and she said, "I'll be staying in our house."  Then he asked me for my address, and I said it was the same place.  The lawyer looked taken aback, and my wife said, "If he doesn't move out pretty soon, we will be Common Law."  We all laughed.  I did find a nice place which I lived in for a year, and then sold while I was building another house farther out of town in the woods.


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## JustDave (Jun 18, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I totally agree Jeni as I have seen very few couples that are happy in their senior years. Many will even say that they can’t afford to split. On another retirement forum it was eye opening to read the responses of people to a similar thread that were in long term marriages.


Back in my going out to dinner years, I used to see a lot of old couples going out to eat.  I thought maybe it was one of the few things both were still capable of doing.  I constantly noticed couples who would eat, probably enjoying their meal, but not talking.  They didn't seem happy. Mostly, I was aware of empty faces just getting through the meal.  I mentioned to my cousin and his wife that old people in restaurants didn't look happy.  We were even in a restaurant at the time.  My cousin said he didn't think that was the case, but then my cousin and his wife were both very talkative, if mostly argumentative, but they were happy together.  I passed it off as him not being very observant.


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## grahamg (Jun 18, 2022)

What the "Brave New World" looks like so far as relationships goes:
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/16/...spects-of-******-deviation-by-dr-eustace.html

"In the 1950's when I was a virgin, there was only one book around that was really informative about sex: “Love Without Fear” by Eustace Chesser. I and my similarly inexperienced cohorts pored over that book as rabbinical students pore over the Tal mud. One section in particular was the focus of our studies: In a chap entitled “How to Manage the Sex Act” there was a four‐page section which graphically described 11 positions of intercourse. Actually described them. Told you what to put where and everything. Incredible. Well, we all owe Dr. Chesser an eternal debt of

gratitude, and the fact that it took several years from the time most of us memorized his 11 positions to the time we actually got around to trying them out is certainly not his fault.

The Human Aspects of ****** Deviation. By Dr. Eustace Chesser.

And so one decade cross‐dissolves into the next, and the next, and suddenly here I am, poring over another book by Dr. Chesser, only now I am 35 and married and the reason I am poring over “Strange Loves” is not to memorize it but to review it. I see Dr. Chesser has not been idle. “Strange Loves” is his 29th book. I've just hunted down my old paperback copy of “Love Without Fear,” found its pages browned by the slow burn of age, the special four‐page section crumbling away a bit worse than the rest, and all of a sudden I notice something that I've never really noticed in all the times I've looked at it: Dr. Chesser has gone and labelled the missionary position the “Normal Position.” I don't mean to suggest the the good doctor truly felt that the other 10 he described were abnormal positions. Still, one wonders: Could the appellation have been entirely devoid of editorial comment?

Well, what the hell. Over 20 years and three and a half million copies have passed since he first wrote that book, and an awful lot has happened since, what with the ****** Revolu tion, Masters and Johnson, Dr. David Reuben, “The Sensuous Woman” and all. So it's not surprising to find Dr. Chesser in his new book speaking of a wide range of ****** deviations with something less than censure. He investigates fetishism, transvestism and trans‐sexualism, homosexual ity and lesbianism, voyeurism and exhibitionism, sadism and masochism, nymphomania and satyriasis, and the tone throughout is commonsense and gentle

He also lets us in on some fairly interesting little titbits along the way. Like: “The philosopher Descartes was fascinated all his life by women with a squint.” And like: Dr. Desmond Morris, author of “The Human Zoo,” was once the recipient of ****** advances from a giant pan da. (“It occurred in Moscow,” Morris explains, “where I had arranged for her to be mated with the only giant panda outside China. She ignored his persistent ****** attentions, but when I put my hand through the bars and patted her back, she responded by raising her tail and direct ing a full ****** invitation posture at me.” Dr. Morris doesn't say what his hand was doing there between the bars, patting the back of a female panda he'd escorted to Moscow. In stead he attempts to toss it all aside by focusing on the pandas' behavior: the male panda, he says, “had matured as a panda's panda, but she was now a people's panda.”)

Dr. Chesser examines the case against pornography and finds, along with most sexologists, that pornography is pretty harmless stuff. “There is no campaign to ban roman tic fiction because it may lead to disillusionment,” he says; “but if pornography is condemned because of its supposed harmful consequences we must call attention to the social harm of a class of fantasy which is mistakenly regarded as innocent. ****** fantasies are at least free from hypocrisy. … Perhaps more harm is done by fostering illusions about marriage than by exciting ****** desire.”

Dr. Chesser feels that “to call behavior abnormal may be no more than a way of saying that you disap prove of it. … It has now become clear to me,” he says, “that the only rational and human line to draw in passing judgment on any sort of con duct is between what is antisocial and what harms no one. … That any unusual relationship between consenting adults is not only lawful, it is right for them.”

Desmond Morris's behavior with giant pandas aside, I quite agree.

In fact, I agree with practically every thing that Dr. Chesser says in “Strange Loves.” Everything but one small point. On page 117 he says: “Only a bisexual novelist could enter the state of mind of a man or a wo man character, as the case may be.” Well, I've written several novels, have entered the states of mind not only of men and women but of a German shepherd and three elephants, and if that makes me bisexual then I'm also semi‐canine and quasi‐elephan tine well.

All right, enough nit‐picking. I close the book and compare the photo of Dr. Chesser on the back of his latest book to the one on “Love Without Fear” and I see that he, like me, is losing a bit of his hair in the front and is going to grey, and I feel suddenly very warm toward this man whom I have never met but who has had such a profound influence on my private life. I want to thank him for “Love Without Fear” on behalf of a whole generation of fearful virgins who are baffled by and envious of the apparent ease with which kids copulate today, and I want to say that I think “Strange Loves” is a valuable book too, and one much needed by a society which keeps trying to tell us what to do with our own bodies on our own time in the privacy of our own homes. I think, along with Eustace Chesser, that we should be permitted to do whatever we like on such occasions. Except tease pandas, that is.


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## FastTrax (Jul 3, 2022)




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## Patricia (Jul 3, 2022)

Bellbird said:


> In the 1970’s when I wanted to get a divorce,Social Welfare was not available, there were no support groups, family support was not around,I certainly didn’t have the finances to support myself or my kids,  so as was the saying at the time, make the best of what you have. .


Also, to think the grass is greener somewhere else and the next one can be more trouble than the first.


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## grahamg (Jul 3, 2022)

Patricia said:


> Also, to think the grass is greener somewhere else and the next one can be more trouble than the first.


The man my wife left me for stayed with him for about twenty years, so having told me before she left me she "knew he wasn't perfect", that's not too bad going  ! She then moved on to another man, so her choice to break up that marriage too I believe.

I'd always thought the two of them were well enough suited, (when I came across him the odd time during the ten years or so I had to visit their house to maintain contact with my "biological child" to use their words, as they had characterised me as being merely the "biological father"!).

They were similarly orientated people I believe,...., my ex describing herself as a "warrior", whilst I was a "peasant" was the inference there), and that man married again a year or two after she left, so I'm unsure just how heartbroken he was to see the back of her, so he was pretty tough psychologically perhaps(?).

They had two children to remind each of the other, (if it matters to people who believe "if you're not happy get a divorce"). The man is on to wife number four, so no holding him back, and the woman he's moved on to looks perfectly respectable,......., (odd these days that without looking you get to see pictures of their marriage on social media without looking!). 

Dr. Eustace Chesser who I quoted above, (writing fifty odd years ago or more), seems to have got what he wished to see happen so far a marriage goes in this country, (though he's long gone so not here to witness the mayhem he helped to create   !).


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