# Computer tips



## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

Anyone got any computer advice? Everyday is like a struggle, have been searching for something I can relate to, but when they start of with 'go int settings' I'm outa there!


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## Nathan (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> Anyone got any computer advice?


Computer & technology has been my hobby for the last 20+ years.  Do you have specific questions?
My advice: Don't expect instant knowledge, get familiar with your computer's operating system, use Google to search for answers.


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## HoneyNut (Feb 18, 2021)

I struggle all the time.  I usually find YouTube or just searching the web is the key for me to figure out my problem.  For problems I don't seem able to remember how to resolve, I keep a little file on my desktop with the instructions.  I had to do that with the steps to get pictures off the phone I used to use.  Seems that my current phone uploads my pictures all by itself, but I have no idea how to find them on Google or wherever they back themselves up to.  The most frequent words spoken in my house are 'Hey Google, how do I ...' (in my daughter's house it is 'Siri, how do I ...')


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

Thanks Nathan, I guess I should take some REAL courses - every day more quesions  I learned how to type in high school, am at least quick at that. I subscribed for windows365 so im hoping to dive into that soon.


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## Nathan (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry, when I got my first computer got stuck on some issue, I asked a co-worker how I should learn about everything- he said "just play with it".   The internet is a valuable source for learning, I always look for multiple sources to make sure I'm getting legitimate,current information.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> Thanks Nathan, I guess I should take some REAL courses - every day more quesions  I learned how to type in high school, am at least quick at that. I subscribed for windows365 so im hoping to dive into that soon.


There are real courses on youtube. Courses on computers as well as Word and W-365, various photoshops, camera/phone/TV-to-PC, etc.


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## Geezerette (Feb 18, 2021)

Since nothing seems to come with manuals any more, what I did in the past was go to a really big good bookstore (I used Barnes and Noble, not intending to give an ad or testimonial  here) and they have shelves of all kinds of manuals for every kind of device, from very basic to high tech. When. I acquired a used laptop, I got a manual for Windows 7, and later one for iPad . Sometimes they don’t match up perfectly to your particular device gives a pretty good roadmap. And improves your knowledge enough to at least have a better idea of what questions to ask. They are also available on line to order and purchase.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

Whenever I sort out a problem for myself, my wife, the office computer for our association, or for other people in our condo building, I am constantly wondering how people deal with these issues if they are not well versed in how computers work and the problem solving step at a time mind set.  Most people I observe seem to jump around willy-nilly hoping to land on a solution.  Sometimes they do, but most of the time they get all tangled up.  It takes informed discipline to go one tiny step at a time, eliminating variables until the solution reveals itself.  Remember that trouble shooting is mostly a process of eliminating variables.

What I think many people don't realize when first getting a computer is that they have to be their own IT department unless they can enlist the help of a more knowledgeable friend.  The risk there is burning that bridge by wearing out one's welcome after a while.  I see again and again, how desperate and focused on the computer problem at hand people become, so that they often don't even bother with any sort of greeting, and simply dump their problem on that friend as soon as they see him or her.  I have been on the receiving end of that far too many times.

1. As already suggested, take courses - informative courses that focus on real world issues and solutions.  One older couple in our condo association took a couple of community course and they rarely had to bother me about their computer.  If they did, it was usually a real problem such as replacing a power supply or performing some upgrade.

2. Read informative books on the subject and experiment, learning from your mistakes and your successes.  This is what hobbyists do.  I was a hobbyist well before getting my degree and getting into engineering.  I would suggest that for this route, you get another computer to experiment on and leave your main computer alone as long as it is working properly.   

3. Join one or more computer-centric forums where you can ask questions and get solutions.  Most of us will use google to quickly determine who else has had this problem and what the solution(s) are.  Over time, you become adept at sorting the BS from the solid information.

4. I don't know if computer clubs still exist.  If they do, that is a wonderful place to learn directly from other folks' experiences.  As a bonus, as you learn, you get to give back by helping new members.

5. Whatever you do, don't get caught up with other folks in computer "religious wars" (i.e. this OS sucks, this one is better...).  I always appreciated when I worked at Cisco Systems their idea of "no technology religion".  We each have our own needs for a computer and should make our own informed choices.

Anyway, that is just off the top of my head for this morning.

Tony


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## Chet (Feb 18, 2021)

Nathan said:


> 65nspry, when I got my first computer got stuck on some issue, I asked a co-worker how I should learn about everything- he said* "just play with it"*.   The internet is a valuable source for learning, I always look for multiple sources to make sure I'm getting legitimate,current information.


*Just play with it* is good advice. You can't break anything. Mostly, there is more than one way to do what you want to do. You will get used to the frustration to the point where you are not frustrated anymore. Expect it.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

Be careful when you play with it.  You CAN mess something up if you don't know what you are doing.  I have had to fix things that people messed up on many occasions.  The safest way to approach "just playing with it" is to do a bit of google legwork and/or get a good book on how to get around in your operating system (i.e. such as one of those Windows tell all type books) and read about the things to be careful of when you do start digging around on your computer.  

The most common ways people break something is to change some setting or delete some file that other software may be dependent on.  Breaking something in most cases on a computer means to cause software to no longer function properly, and that software can include the operating system environment itself.  Usually, breaking something doesn't mean physically breaking the computer, though I suppose that is possible with some effort. 

Tony


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Be careful when you play with it.  You CAN mess something up if you don't know what you are doing.  I have had to fix things that people messed up on many occasions.  The safest way to approach "just playing with it" is to do a bit of google legwork and/or get a good book on how to get around in your operating system (i.e. such as one of those Windows tell all type books) and read about the things to be careful of when you do start digging around on your computer.
> 
> The most common ways people break something is to change some setting or delete some file that other software may be dependent on.  Breaking something in most cases on a computer means to cause software to no longer function properly, and that software can include the operating system environment itself.  Usually, breaking something doesn't mean physically breaking the computer, though I suppose that is possible with some effort.
> 
> Tony


Well, I do have a big hammer, just in case


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Whenever I sort out a problem for myself, my wife, the office computer for our association, or for other people in our condo building, I am constantly wondering how people deal with these issues if they are not well versed in how computers work and the problem solving step at a time mind set.  Most people I observe seem to jump around willy-nilly hoping to land on a solution.  Sometimes they do, but most of the time they get all tangled up.  It takes informed discipline to go one tiny step at a time, eliminating variables until the solution reveals itself.  Remember that trouble shooting is mostly a process of eliminating variables.
> 
> What I think many people don't realize when first getting a computer is that they have to be their own IT department unless they can enlist the help of a more knowledgeable friend.  The risk there is burning that bridge by wearing out one's welcome after a while.  I see again and again, how desperate and focused on the computer problem at hand people become, so that they often don't even bother with any sort of greeting, and simply dump their problem on that friend as soon as they see him or her.  I have been on the receiving end of that far too many times.
> 
> ...


That's some great advice! Yes, I've aleady heard that Windows 7 is better than 10 and 'why didn't you get an apple'


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## squatting dog (Feb 18, 2021)

Nathan said:


> 65nspry, when I got my first computer got stuck on some issue, I asked a co-worker how I should learn about everything- he said "just play with it".   The internet is a valuable source for learning, I always look for multiple sources to make sure I'm getting legitimate,current information.



Sounds good until you end up with the dreaded blue screen.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> Well, I do have a big hammer, just in case


Yes!  The BFH is always a good last resort.   

Tony


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Yes!  The BFH is always a good last resort.
> 
> Tony


What kind of music do you play? I'm a songwriter from way back never had anything hit yet, but NEVER GIVE UP!


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> What kind of music do you play? I'm a songwriter from way back never had anything hit yet, but NEVER GIVE UP!


Country is my genre


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## debodun (Feb 18, 2021)

What galls me is always having to keep up with the frequently advancing technology. It seems new software is on a geometric curve. You buy a system and by the time it's delivered, it's obsolete. You have to keep up or get left behind which means frequent updating . This is a slippery slope for me. I like to learn a system, then stay with it. I'd still be using Windows 95 if it was compatible with my ISP.


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

debodun said:


> What galls me is always having to keep up with the frequently advancing technology. It seems new software is on a geometric curve. You buy a system and by the time it's delivered, it's obsolete. You have to keep up or get left behind which means frequent updating . This is a slippery slope for me. I like to learn a system, then stay with it. I'd still be using Windows 95 if it was compatible with my ISP.


You got that right! I've been looking through youtube, there's a lot of good stuff in there, but way over my head. I'm from one of them-there fly-over states  and you know how "smort" we are!


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 18, 2021)

Years ago, I was one of the first to get a computer. In those days, if you wanted to add a printer, it took a weekend. job And you had to enter long lines of code like, "<a>///.drkn^^/\\.5sd<a2;-(6h2>>........................................................................................." WITHOUT A MISTAKE. Now, I have a hard time finding the 'on' switch. But, while my computer literacy is still pretty much in the "Dick & Jane" stage, hey, I'm online and doing everything I need to get buy. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! It's one of those things where you just have to go and DO stuff, to learn how.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> What kind of music do you play? I'm a songwriter from way back never had anything hit yet, but NEVER GIVE UP!


For some time I played solo fingerstyle guitar.  This is essentially similar to classical guitar except that the music consists of pop tunes and standards arranged for solo instrumental fingerstyle playing.  I have been tending more toward jazz chord melody because, instead of having to memorize a piece, you play it how you want to, which can be different every time.  You learn the vocabulary, much like learning any language, and then use it as we are doing here.

I never developed an interest in singing.  Most people, when they see you with a guitar, ask why I don't sing.  Or if I do play a tune, wonder why I didn't sing.  So I finally gave up on that and just do it for my own enjoyment.  Back in the late 70s, I did play professionally full time in a trio that played supper clubs, resorts, and Holiday Inn type hotels.  That was a union (AF of M) job and I did it for about 2 years until deciding that I wanted to settle down in one place.

What genre(s) do you play and write for?

Edit: I just saw your post with the answer to my question.

Tony


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Sounds good until you end up with the dreaded blue screen.


I still remember learning how to read the "blue screen of death".  Unfortunately, the information captured (stack traces, memory dumps, registers) has some delay so that it rarely points to exactly what happened, but does provide clues as to where to look.

Tony


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Years ago, I was one of the first to get a computer. In those days, if you wanted to add a printer, it took a weekend. job And you had to enter long lines of code like, "<a>///.drkn^^/\\.5sd<a2;-(6h2>>........................................................................................." WITHOUT A MISTAKE. Now, I have a hard time finding the 'on' switch. But, while my computer literacy is still pretty much in the "Dick & Jane" stage, hey, I'm online and doing everything I need to get buy. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!


I can definitely relate to that!


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## squatting dog (Feb 18, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I still remember learning how to read the "blue screen of death".  Unfortunately, the information captured (stack traces, memory dumps, registers) has some delay so that it rarely points to exactly what happened, but does provide clues as to where to look.
> 
> Tony


We've had computers since the days of 5 1/2 floppy disc. I may still have leisure suit Larry on a floppy somewhere.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

My (now) wife had an Apple II+ back in the early 80s.  I built my own first computer from scratch around 1980 or 1981.  A year or two later, I got a complete S-100 system really, really cheap as a computer store was going out of business and just dumping the stuff.

Tony


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> We've had computers since the days of 5 1/2 floppy disc. I may still have leisure suit Larry on a floppy somewhere.


I remember buying a pair of 8" floppy drives out at a computer flea market in Half Moon Bay (Bay area) once when I was out there for a class at Intel.  I used these on my S-100 system that consisted of a box full of S-100 cards and a terminal.  5 1/4" floppies came along a bit later  for me.  At that time, my wife and I were just friends.  I thought her Apple II+ was pretty cool for games, but I was more interested in programming and building stuff.  My S-100 system had an EPROM burner card and I had one of those EPROM eraser lights.  I wrote my own firmware in assembler for the Z-80 processor and programmed my own EPROMs.  That was much more fun for me than the games on her Apple.

Tony


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## debodun (Feb 18, 2021)

My first computer was a Zenith desktop tower and it had a 10MB drive and ran Windows 2.1. That was a good system in the 1980s. Two 5 inch floppy drives, too.


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## 65nspry (Feb 18, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I still remember learning how to read the "blue screen of death".  Unfortunately, the information captured (stack traces, memory dumps, registers) has some delay so that it rarely points to exactly what happened, but does provide clues as to where to look.
> 
> Tony


Y, I always listened to rock-n-roll, but for some reason only write country  ... I guess it's in my blood.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 18, 2021)

65nspry said:


> Y, I always listened to rock-n-roll, but for some reason only write country  ... I guess it's in my blood.


Well since the 80s, Country seems more like rock than Country to me.  It now has all the distorted guitars and pounding that had otherwise been the hallmark of rock music.

Also, it is not at all uncommon for musicians to prefer to listen to music outside their own art form.  A well known (in jazz circles) jazz guitarist that I know, prefers to listen to 60s rock, for example.

Tony


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## shedevil7953 (Feb 18, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Years ago, I was one of the first to get a computer. In those days, if you wanted to add a printer, it took a weekend. job And you had to enter long lines of code like, "<a>///.drkn^^/\\.5sd<a2;-(6h2>>........................................................................................." WITHOUT A MISTAKE. Now, I have a hard time finding the 'on' switch. But, while my computer literacy is still pretty much in the "Dick & Jane" stage, hey, I'm online and doing everything I need to get buy. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!! It's one of those things where you just have to go and DO stuff, to learn how.


I understand exactly what you mean!  I recently had to replace my 10 year old printer and was so amazed at how basically it's a 'plug & play'!  It rather did everything for me!


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## bowmore (Feb 18, 2021)

My first computer was a Corona "portable" that came with no hard drive. I had to buy a 20MB "hard card" and more memory. It zipped along at 4.7 MHz. I used it with Lotus.


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## 65nspry (Feb 20, 2021)

Well, I felt the need to share this: I started learning spreadsheets last night (I never was one to start anything at the beginning , even learned how to create a formula (kinda), not sure if I'll ever use the newly acquired skill, but it's been fun to learn. I was talking to a friend yesterday (he knows how illiterate I am) and he sent me a few youtube videos, the one I like most is a strange method of teaching but must say it was fun ... didn't even set out to learn how to make a spreadsheet but it was there and my computer came with office already on it (keeps popping up that it's a trial - I guess Microsoft doesn't have enough money :-()! Anyway, that's where I've been most of last night all morning Honestly, I'm not so social online but I do like this forum, lots of good stuff!


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## tbeltrans (Feb 20, 2021)

65nspry said:


> Well, I felt the need to share this: I started learning spreadsheets last night (I never was one to start anything at the beginning , even learned how to create a formula (kinda), not sure if I'll ever use the newly acquired skill, but it's been fun to learn. I was talking to a friend yesterday (he knows how illiterate I am) and he sent me a few youtube videos, the one I like most is a strange method of teaching but must say it was fun ... didn't even set out to learn how to make a spreadsheet but it was there and my computer came with office already on it (keeps popping up that it's a trial - I guess Microsoft doesn't have enough money :-()! Anyway, that's where I've been most of last night all morning Honestly, I'm not so social online but I do like this forum, lots of good stuff!


Instead of Microsoft Office, why not try the Open Source Libre Office?  It is largely compatible with the files created with Microsoft Office and doesn't cost anything.  I have been using it, and Open Office before that, for years.  I do the various notices, documents, and the spreadsheet we use for our condo association roster with it, and have never had a problem with compatibility exchanging files with our management company or other board members.

Just download it from the official site and install:

https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download/

Tony


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## Chet (Feb 20, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Instead of Microsoft Office, why not try the Open Source Libre Office?  It is largely compatible with the files created with Microsoft Office and doesn't cost anything.  I have been using it, and Open Office before that, for years.  I do the various notices, documents, and the spreadsheet we use for our condo association roster with it, and have never had a problem with compatibility exchanging files with our management company or other board members.
> 
> Just download it from the official site and install:
> 
> ...


There is also Google Sheets, and for word processing, Google Docs.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 20, 2021)

Chet said:


> There is also Google Sheets, and for word processing, Google Docs.


Yes, though in good conscience, I can't recommend (or not) either of these since I have no experience with them.  I sincerely hope, for the sake of those who read these posts and recommendations that people with real experience with the things being discussed make the recommendations.

Maybe you can address how compatible these are with their Microsoft counterparts.  I cited my real world experience over many years with Libre Office in my recommendation.

Tony


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## Chet (Feb 20, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Yes, though in good conscience, I can't recommend (or not) either of these since I have no experience with them.  I sincerely hope, for the sake of those who read these posts and recommendations that people with real experience with the things being discussed make the recommendations.
> 
> Maybe you can address how compatible these are with their Microsoft counterparts.  I cited my real world experience over many years with Libre Office in my recommendation.
> 
> Tony



They work and they are free. Not everyone requires compatibility with Microsoft like myself and perhaps the OP. Most casual users would not.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 20, 2021)

Chet said:


> They work and they are free. Not everyone requires compatibility with Microsoft like myself and perhaps the OP. Most casual users would not.


The original post was unintentionally forceful, so I am rewording it to reflect my true intentions...

From what I have observed among non-tech people I know, they seem to increasingly use office-type software for exchanging files of one kind or another.   Therefore, it would be difficult to determine what a "casual user" actually is.  My sister-in-law might type up a recipe or make a birthday card and attach it as an email to send to the rest of the family, for example.  So knowing that the office software a person is considering is compatible with what other people typically use may be more important than you might think.

Anyway, just something to consider...

Tony


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## 65nspry (Feb 20, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> The original post was unintentionally forceful, so I am rewording it to reflect my true intentions...
> 
> From what I have observed among non-tech people I know, they seem to increasingly use office-type software for exchanging files of one kind or another.   Therefore, it would be difficult to determine what a "casual user" actually is.  My sister-in-law might type up a recipe or make a birthday card and attach it as an email to send to the rest of the family, for example.  So knowing that the office software a person is considering is compatible with what other people typically use may be more important than you might think.
> 
> ...


I must say I agree with you Tony, I guess it mainly depends on if you use MS products at work or if you're a casual user, that would be my opinion with my very limited experience/knowledge, but it was good learning spreadsheets (or beginning to learn), I'm still learning, the site has a lot of lessons, the way it teaches is more my speed, I would say it's a 'different' way to approach learning (kinda goofy actually, but seems to work for me). I opened up spreadsheets in google today too just to check it and it would probably be good enough for me but as long as I have the free trial I will probaly use MS  and after that, I'll see, I don't mind spending the money if it's better... I think it said it's $99 a year plus it seems to have a LOT of storage space with it.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 20, 2021)

65nspry said:


> I must say I agree with you Tony, I guess it mainly depends on if you use MS products at work or if you're a casual user, that would be my opinion with my very limited experience/knowledge, but it was good learning spreadsheets (or beginning to learn), I'm still learning, the site has a lot of lessons, the way it teaches is more my speed, I would say it's a 'different' way to approach learning (kinda goofy actually, but seems to work for me). I opened up spreadsheets in google today too just to check it and it would probably be good enough for me but as long as I have the free trial I will probaly use MS  and after that, I'll see, I don't mind spending the money if it's better... I think it said it's $99 a year plus it seems to have a LOT of storage space with it.


I would say to use whatever you are most comfortable with, but know ahead of time what its advantages and disadvantages may be so that you don't paste yourself into a corner later on.

Libre Office is actively supported and developed.  It branched from the Open Office source tree, but Open Office does not seem to have such active support anymore.  There is absolutely NO cost with Libre Office, no $99 a year or anything remotely involving cost unless you choose to donate to the project.  There is no requirement at all to do that.  Your storage is all local, rather than on a cloud.  There are active forums that will provide answers to whatever questions you may have when using it and if you were able to do so, you could volunteer to help with the continuing development of the Libre Office project such as writing code, writing documentation, being a beta tester, etc.  Libre Office is built for Windows, Linux and (I think) Mac.  Also, this project is VERY mature, having been around for many years.

Also, from the same download site, you can choose to download the help files so you don't need an internet connection to access the quite generous amount of help available showing you how to do most anything you wish to do with Libre Office.  When it downloads, it is available via the typical F1 help key.

Other than knowing of its existence, I don't know anything about the Google Office products.  Therefore, I can comment on Libre Office only.  I can't make any comparisons, so please don't interpret what I am saying about Libre Office as being any sort of comparison saying it is better than whatever else is available.  Libre Office is very good and stable, but so might be all the other similar office type packages.

Tony


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## Chet (Feb 21, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> The original post was unintentionally forceful, so I am rewording it to reflect my true intentions...
> 
> From what I have observed among non-tech people I know, they seem to increasingly use office-type software for exchanging files of one kind or another.   Therefore, it would be difficult to determine what a "casual user" actually is.  My sister-in-law might type up a recipe or make a birthday card and attach it as an email to send to the rest of the family, for example.  So knowing that the office software a person is considering is compatible with what other people typically use may be more important than you might think.
> 
> ...


Libre was recommended by Kim Komando so I did consider it, however, being not just a casual user but a conservative one, I was not eager to click away and download something just because it's free. Who knows what else goes with it? I once got burned downloading some planetarium software only to find out it was not compatible with what I had on my computer. As for a recommendation by Kim Komando, she once announced that she had gotten hacked and she is an expert.

My original spreadsheet usage was back before I retired using MS Works. I recorded my expected income after retirement and current financial needs at the time and charted them. After a year I found expenditures were less than expected income, so things looked good finacially.

I chart my blood pressure readings now before doctor visits and it's interesting to see how it fluctuates so you need to take an average. I think I even impressed a former doctor I had when I printed out the results and brought it in with the visit.

I am the epitome of a casual user. My interests lie outdoors. When the sun is shining and the birds are chirping, I'm outa here.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

Chet said:


> Libre was recommended by Kim Komando so I did consider it, however, being not just a casual user but a conservative one, I was not eager to click away and download something just because it's free. Who knows what else goes with it? I once got burned downloading some planetarium software only to find out it was not compatible with what I had on my computer. As for a recommendation by Kim Komando, she once announced that she had gotten hacked and she is an expert.
> 
> My original spreadsheet usage was back before I retired using MS Works. I recorded my expected income after retirement and current financial needs at the time and charted them. After a year I found expenditures were less than expected income, so things looked good finacially.
> 
> ...


Nothing else comes down with Libre Office or any other Open Source project.  These people are volunteers from all over the world and they have nothing to sell, nor are they involved in any kind of trickery.  It really is as simple and straightforward as that.

Edit: This "casual user" thing is starting to sound sillier all the time.  What does going outside when the weather is nice have to do with it?  In my career as a software engineer, I worked with people who had all manner of outdoor hobbies - one guy spent his vacations deep sea diving at spots around the world.  Others owned cabins on lakes and spent weekends and summer vacations there.  I could go on, but my point is that you lost me with that one.  If you think that for a person to be something other than whatever "casual user" is, s/he must spend his or her entire time inside huddled in front of a computer, think again.

Tony


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## hollydolly (Feb 21, 2021)

HoneyNut said:


> I struggle all the time.  I usually find YouTube or just searching the web is the key for me to figure out my problem.  For problems I don't seem able to remember how to resolve, I keep a little file on my desktop with the instructions.  I had to do that with the steps to get pictures off the phone I used to use.  *Seems that my current phone uploads my pictures all by itself, but I have no idea how to find them on Google or wherever they back themselves up to. *


They should just be in your ''pictures''...


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## hollydolly (Feb 21, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I still remember learning how to read the "blue screen of death".  Unfortunately, the information captured (stack traces, memory dumps, registers) has some delay so that it rarely points to exactly what happened, but does provide clues as to where to look.
> 
> Tony


ooooh that gives me the shudders remembering that damn BSOD... it really was the catalyst that made change from Windows to Apple


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ooooh that gives me the shudders remembering that damn BSOD... it really was the catalyst that made change from Windows to Apple


Though I never got involved in Apple's ecosystem, among the non technical computer users I know outside the workplace, as a group, the Apple users seem much happier with their computers than do the Windows folks.  From what I understand IF you stay inside Apple's ecosystem and buy your software from Apple's store (i.e. assuming it has been tested for compatibility), you have a smoother computing experience.

That description tells the difference between an Apple platform and a non-Apple platform.  In the Windows PC environment, you are picking products from whatever you want, but it all comes from different places and is not necessarily tested for compatibility with everything else you are using, or with whatever hardware you happen to have installed in your computer.  You, therefore, become the tester.

This is not to say that one environment is necessarily better than the other.  Instead, they are different.  Apparently, the PC Windows environment is much more of a DIY environment so that you become responsible for insuring that whatever you add to your system, whether hardware or software, is compatible, or at least won't interfere, with everything already installed.

This reminds me of the days of stereo equipment.  You could mix and match components or, you could buy a complete MacIntosh system and just take it home and plop it down in your living room and have an excellent setup.  Of course, you paid dearly for that convenience.  For somebody who had more money than time (i.e. professionals such as doctors and lawyers), a MacIntosh stereo system could be ideal.

For those unfamiliar, and therefore confusing MacIntosh stereo with Apple's McIntosh:

The stereo equipment -

https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/

The Apple products -

https://www.apple.com/mac/

I never got into the Apple ecosystem because I never used these anywhere such as at work or in any computer club, so I just never got involved in that world.  I am sure it is as great as its adherents say it is, if evidenced by the experiences that my non technical friends seem to have.

By the way, outside of the workplace, I really don't hang out with "computer people", so I suppose most everybody I know outside work might qualify as a "casual user" (?).

Tony


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## hollydolly (Feb 21, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> They should just be in your ''pictures''...


I'm actually serious... they go into the cloud and also simply into your 'pictures''


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## Nathan (Feb 21, 2021)

...my 2 cents:   I recommended Libreoffice and also Google Sheets, which  is available on any device you might be logged into your google account on, since it is _in the cloud_.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

Nathan said:


> ...my 2 cents:   I recommended Libreoffice and also Google Sheets, which  is available on any device you might be logged into your google account on, since it is _in the cloud_.


This is a trend that, other than possible security issues, has long seemed to me to be a good solution for non-technical computer users - the cloud.  A user could conceivably have a computer that is little more than an appliance like a toaster - no need to install software or perform local backups, nothing to crash or go wrong other than a hardware failure (like a toaster).  All the software and data would be kept on the cloud by a subscription service that is essentially your IT department, handling software upgrades, data backup, and (hopefully) security.  

I said this years ago, and Google seems to be stepping up to provide that service.  In fact, back around 2000, I did some work with a company that was building application accelerator network appliances for providing just such a service.  Unfortunately, it was not until just a few years ago that this idea started to catch on with Google's cloud offerings.  For most people I know, this would be the ideal solution, assuming that Google provides real security for your data.

Tony


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## Nathan (Feb 21, 2021)

I used to shun "the cloud", considered it to be a huge security issue plus an erosion of individual data _ownership_.   But nowadays it's just handy to use Gmail, Google Drive, Photos, Docs, Sheets etc.

BTW, someone was wondering where their Photos and Contacts were for their phone....if your phone is an Android you really need a Gmail account, once logged in your Photos and Contacts will be available to your phone through those respective apps.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I used to shun "the cloud", considered it to be a huge security issue plus an erosion of individual data _ownership_.   But nowadays it's just handy to use Gmail, Google Drive, Photos, Docs, Sheets etc.
> 
> BTW, someone was wondering where their Photos and Contacts were for their phone....if your phone is an Android you really need a Gmail account, once logged in your Photos and Contacts will be available to your phone through those respective apps.


There will probably always be some security risk however small, if only by virtue of the fact that the cloud is a server farm connected to the internet.  We have all heard about the massive hacks that occur from time to time.  If it is on the internet, it has at least some vulnerability.

Given that, each individual must weigh the risk factor against the convenience.  Just as we have various pieces of information we are comfortable keeping at home and other pieces of information we choose to keep in a safe and/or safety deposit box, so it is with our data.

To me, it seems for day to day use, having a subscription with a provider that makes both the cloud data storage and the applications you would use to create and maintain that data content, would make a lot of sense for most people these days.

Tony


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## Irwin (Feb 21, 2021)

I trust Google with my information less than I trust Microsoft, which is very little, so I don't use their Docs for anything other than notes and backups. 

LibreOffice is pretty good, or OpenOffice from which LibreOffice branched, which is now owned by Oracle, so you don't know if you can trust them or not. They're both open source, but since OpenOffice is owned by Oracle, developers are reluctant to maintain it. Who wants to work without pay for a multi-billion dollar company? So bug and security fixes have been slow. That's not the case with LibreOffice.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I trust Google with my information less than I trust Microsoft, which is very little, so I don't use their Docs for anything other than notes and backups.
> 
> LibreOffice is pretty good, or OpenOffice from which LibreOffice branched, which is now owned by Oracle, so you don't know if you can trust them or not. They're both open source, but since OpenOffice is owned by Oracle, developers are reluctant to maintain it. Who wants to work without pay for a multi-billion dollar company? So bug and security fixes have been slow. That's not the case with LibreOffice.


So, in the end, what it comes down to is what an individual is most comfortable with.  Personally, I am most comfortable with Libre Office, and have been using it for some time now as I have stated in previous posts.  For others, the risks involved in keeping their data on a cloud and using cloud applications, might be outweighed by the convenience of not having to maintain their own backups and application.  For still others, having a subscription to Microsoft Office might be a better fit.

Tony


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## Chet (Feb 21, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Nothing else comes down with Libre Office or any other Open Source project.  These people are volunteers from all over the world and they have nothing to sell, nor are they involved in any kind of trickery.  It really is as simple and straightforward as that.
> 
> Edit: This "casual user" thing is starting to sound sillier all the time.  What does going outside when the weather is nice have to do with it?  In my career as a software engineer, I worked with people who had all manner of outdoor hobbies - one guy spent his vacations deep sea diving at spots around the world.  Others owned cabins on lakes and spent weekends and summer vacations there.  *I could go on, but my point is that you lost me with that one.  If you think that for a person to be something other than whatever "casual user" is, s/he must spend his or her entire time inside huddled in front of a computer, think again.*
> 
> Tony


Maybe not the entire time but a lot more time. I suppose you could define *casual user *as a non-geek who is not into 'puters as much as someone who made a living at it.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 21, 2021)

Chet said:


> Maybe not the entire time but a lot more time. I suppose you could define *casual user *as a non-geek who is not into 'puters as much as someone who made a living at it.


Yes, that makes sense to me.  I just wanted to be clear that technical people who work with computers such as engineers and programmers have normal lives and outside interests like everybody else.  Any profession will demand more time than somebody who punches a clock at the end of an 8 hour day, though I can remember quite a bit of overtime when I worked as a machinist in the AFL-CIO back in the 70s before I got the job as a full time musician.

Tony


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## Irwin (Feb 21, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> So, in the end, what it comes down to is what an individual is most comfortable with.  Personally, I am most comfortable with Libre Office, and have been using it for some time now as I have stated in previous posts.  For others, the risks involved in keeping their data on a cloud and using cloud applications, might be outweighed by the convenience of not having to maintain their own backups and application.  For still others, having a subscription to Microsoft Office might be a better fit.
> 
> Tony


I just found this out, but with LibreOffice, you can save directly to Google Drive by setting up file services, so you can save your files directly to the cloud. You need an Authentication code, and it's not readily apparent how to obtain that, but that's typical of Google; their documentation sucks. But whatdyawant for nothin'?    Plus, they give you a full gig of storage for free.

I'm not currently doing any office stuff and don't feel like researching it, but if somebody else figures it out, please post your solution.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I just found this out, but with LibreOffice, you can save directly to Google Drive by setting up file services, so you can save your files directly to the cloud. You need an Authentication code, and it's not readily apparent how to obtain that, but that's typical of Google; their documentation sucks. But whatdyawant for nothin'?    Plus, they give you a full gig of storage for free.
> 
> I'm not currently doing any office stuff and don't feel like researching it, but if somebody else figures it out, please post your solution.


Thanks for the info, Irwin.  I will continue to do things as I have, since I am comfortable managing my own data.  However, this might well be useful to others here.

By the way, aside from your post...

Somebody in this thread mentioned trust regarding downloading an Oracle application.  I have been using Oracle's Virtual Box VM for some time now without issue.  It is a virtual machine that allows me to run another OS environment within Windows.  I run Ubuntu Linux in it.  If security is an issue, I run a modified version of the Tails secure distribution booted from a USB flash drive and hosted entirely on that drive.  Its communication with the outside world is completely through the Tor protocol, the same protocol that the Tor network (what some call the Dark Net) uses.

Tony


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