# Government Break Down: What Would You Do?



## SifuPhil (May 29, 2013)

I haven't been active in the field lately, but for several years I was big into survivalist / preparationist thinking. I visited forums, wrote articles and changed a few things in my life as a result of the ideas generated.

One of the favorite scenarios of these folks was the partial or total break-down of society - it might start, according to them, as a small riot stemming from an unpopular law being passed; it might be from a terrorist attack; it might even be a result of too many people losing their jobs at one time and deciding to do something about it.

Whatever the cause, these scenarios paint a fairly grim picture of what would happen. Law enforcement is soon overwhelmed by the volume of calls, the local government isn't equipped to handle the mobs and the State is forced to call in the National Guard. Ultimately these scenarios end with the Guard itself calling in the military for assistance.

Whether or not this is at all possible or even probable, it DOES serve as a wake-up call for us to re-evaluate how dependent we are on the government. Do you receive Social Security benefits? Medical benefits? Welfare? Any form of government-funded assistance? If so, and those very programs should be discontinued for whatever reason, would you be able to survive?

This isn't an exercise you can play with for 5 minutes and come up with a valid answer, either - you'll see all the almost-invisible connections, the web that society has created for itself (or allowed to be created around it) that nurtures so many of us throughout our lives, and you'll see how important that web has become. 

Could you survive without any help, in _any_ form, from your government?


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## That Guy (May 29, 2013)

I came home from the Vietnam War in 1970 and was very paranoid about the collapse of society.  Everywhere I looked I saw the coming disaster and felt as though the war had followed me home.  Was on the road to becoming a serious survivalist when I just stopped.  Since then, things may be going downhill but it ain't over yet and I enjoyed life a lot more after that.  If and when it all fails, I will just struggle and die along with the rest of 'em.  Nothin' lasts forever...  F it!


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## janfromflorida (May 29, 2013)

Well, with Russian now arming the Syrians we may not have to worry about destruction coming from within!  And if it is society which declines, history has shown that most do.  As with the person who once snubbed a homeless person, karma may get people, but it gets nations, too!


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## R. Zimm (May 29, 2013)

These are things that many folks are thinking about these days. I for one think there is more chance of an economic collapse or at least major depression that could have similar results. Not sure what I'd do as I do not have the resources to prep like I'd like to.


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## That Guy (May 29, 2013)




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## Happyflowerlady (May 30, 2013)

When I was just a small child, my mother convinced me that we lived in the "End Times", and that the Tribulation would happen during our lifetime. She also had gone through the great depression, and so she and my father did not waste anything, and she had food and clothes set aside for when this event happened. 
I eventually grew up, got married, and started my own collection of "stuff" to make it through the end times. Unfortunately, we also moved a LOT, and it was impossible to keep packing all that stuff along, although over the years , I made a lot of tries at being prepared.
Now, I am way too old to even try to make a run for the hills, (as the plan used to go) so I either make it here with what we have, or I don't. I think if everything crashes all at once, there is no way I can survive, I am too dependent on stores, and SS is my only income source. 
I am growing a little garden, and setting aside some food, but that doesn't last forever, and there would be marauders out to take whatever they can scavenge from people like me, in any case. I have given it a lot of thought, and am pretty much resigned to the fact that I am not prepared for survival, and just hoping that the world will hold together for a while longer yet. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy life to the best of my ability, do the best I can to be prepared for hard times, and not worry about something I cannot change.


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## janfromflorida (May 30, 2013)

*Agree totally*





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_*King James Version (KJV)*by Public Domain
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Romans 8:28 in all English translations





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I couldn't agree more.  I trust in Romans8:28 

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.




Happyflowerlady said:


> When I was just a small child, my mother convinced me that we lived in the "End Times", and that the Tribulation would happen during our lifetime. She also had gone through the great depression, and so she and my father did not waste anything, and she had food and clothes set aside for when this event happened.
> I eventually grew up, got married, and started my own collection of "stuff" to make it through the end times. Unfortunately, we also moved a LOT, and it was impossible to keep packing all that stuff along, although over the years , I made a lot of tries at being prepared.
> Now, I am way too old to even try to make a run for the hills, (as the plan used to go) so I either make it here with what we have, or I don't. I think if everything crashes all at once, there is no way I can survive, I am too dependent on stores, and SS is my only income source.
> I am growing a little garden, and setting aside some food, but that doesn't last forever, and there would be marauders out to take whatever they can scavenge from people like me, in any case. I have given it a lot of thought, and am pretty much resigned to the fact that I am not prepared for survival, and just hoping that the world will hold together for a while longer yet. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy life to the best of my ability, do the best I can to be prepared for hard times, and not worry about something I cannot change.


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## janfromflorida (May 30, 2013)

My apologies for the ads that came along with that Bible quote.  I copied the quote from a website and the ads didn't appear.  That was sneaky of them.  All I wanted to copy and post was the quote.


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## SifuPhil (May 30, 2013)

That Guy said:


> ...  Was on the road to becoming a serious survivalist when I just stopped.  Since then, things may be going downhill but it ain't over yet and I enjoyed life a lot more after that.  If and when it all fails, I will just struggle and die along with the rest of 'em.  Nothin' lasts forever...  F it!



That's pretty much my outlook these days as well. Like HappyFlowerLady I had a lot of "stuff" at one point, and a tough old Ford Bronco to haul it around so that I was always ready. Now that I've given up driving and lost or gave away most of the "stuff" I'll just SIP - survive-in-place - until I can't do it anymore. 



janfromflorida said:


> Well, with Russian now arming the Syrians we may not have to worry about destruction coming from within!  And if it is society which declines, history has shown that most do.  As with the person who once snubbed a homeless person, karma may get people, but it gets nations, too!



History does indeed show that all societies fall sooner or later. I would just hope that ours, with a track record of only a little over 200 years, will be around a bit longer. 



R. Zimm said:


> These are things that many folks are thinking about these days. I for one think there is more chance of an economic collapse or at least major depression that could have similar results. Not sure what I'd do as I do not have the resources to prep like I'd like to.



I agree that an economic scenario is very likely. I've seen people flocking to buy gold and silver but I wonder how valuable that will be if society doesn't come back for a while. Me, I can't afford to buy precious metals so I invest in ammo  it's just as expensive and hard-to-get as gold now. 



Happyflowerlady said:


> When I was just a small child, my mother convinced me that we lived in the "End Times", and that the Tribulation would happen during our lifetime. She also had gone through the great depression, and so she and my father did not waste anything, and she had food and clothes set aside for when this event happened.
> I eventually grew up, got married, and started my own collection of "stuff" to make it through the end times. Unfortunately, we also moved a LOT, and it was impossible to keep packing all that stuff along, although over the years , I made a lot of tries at being prepared.
> Now, I am way too old to even try to make a run for the hills, (as the plan used to go) so I either make it here with what we have, or I don't. I think if everything crashes all at once, there is no way I can survive, I am too dependent on stores, and SS is my only income source.
> I am growing a little garden, and setting aside some food, but that doesn't last forever, and there would be marauders out to take whatever they can scavenge from people like me, in any case. I have given it a lot of thought, and am pretty much resigned to the fact that I am not prepared for survival, and just hoping that the world will hold together for a while longer yet. In the meantime, I intend to enjoy life to the best of my ability, do the best I can to be prepared for hard times, and not worry about something I cannot change.



Well said! As I replied to That Guy my plan is also to just do what I can for as long as I can - I've lived a long-enough life, I won't mind going. 



janfromflorida said:


> My apologies for the ads that came along with that Bible quote.  I copied the quote from a website and the ads didn't appear.  That was sneaky of them.  All I wanted to copy and post was the quote.



Be ye separate, rise from among them and touch not the unclean thing. 

Gotta' make money for those gilded temples!


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## Ozarkgal (May 30, 2013)

There is a great interest in preparedness in these hills.  There are many places offering classes and a store opened up last year, practically in the middle of no where that offers survival provisions, ammo, books and has classes on survival techniques such as canning and gardening.

Me, I vasillate between being really pissed off about having to think about the way this once wonderful country is being pillaged by corporations, corrupt politicians, bloated government and illegal invaders sucking it dry, and trying to stick my head in the sand, trying to ignore it and hope it holds together at least until we are gone..Selfish I know, but the reality is,  despite the constitution, there is really nothing the citizen minions can do about it.  Government and giant corporations are corrupt with greed and have gained the upper hand.

In reality, I know that despite having some weaponry and ammo, when they come down that driveway or through the woods for what we have, they will get it.  I believe anarchy is coming, just how soon is the question.


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## SifuPhil (May 30, 2013)

Beautiful reply!



Ozarkgal said:


> In reality, I know that despite having some weaponry and ammo, when they come down that driveway or through the woods for what we have, they will get it.  I believe anarchy is coming, just how soon is the question.



They might eventually get it, but if you're skilled enough you might make them pay a steep price for what they get ...

A lot of misconceptions I had about survivalism / preparationism disappeared after I did a bit of research. For example, the idea of us city boys coming out to the country to pillage and burn ... that really doesn't make much sense. We aren't skilled in country ways, we'd get lost on the way when our GPS died, we'd be terrified by owls and mosquitoes and frogs and such ...

No, especially if you're a ways out, I don't think you need to worry too much about city boys - we'll just all kill each other on the pavement and never get close to your place!


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## That Guy (May 30, 2013)

My dad, commenting on the state of the state, would often just say, "Rise and fall of the empire..."


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## Ozarkgal (May 30, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Beautiful, especially if you're a ways out, I don't think you need to worry too much about city boys - we'll just all kill each other on the pavement and never get close to your place!




Phil...it's not you city boys that I would worry about...if you made it past my neighbor at the top of the road, who has innumerable firearms and a room full of ammo (God forbid his house ever catches fire, you would see the explosion for three counties) and definitely knows how to use them, you'd get half way down my road and be afraid your city cars wouldn't make it over the 500 feet of shale rock and probably abandon the whole idea.

No, it's the deep backwoods boys that I would worry about...you know the ones that have names like  Bubba, Stump, Junior Man and Big Tiny.  They  have dental and body hygiene issues and grew up eating possum stew and fried squirrels, that they killed before breakfast.  They are armed, and love their family  almost as much as they love their weapons.  Maneuvering through the woods on 4 wheelers is a past time for them..Believe me, they do exist out here and could be as much of a predator as a wolf or bear.  I personally know of some that live completely off the grid, so far back in that you are not going to visit without a four wheel drive vehicle.  No electricity and rain barrel and spring water, wood for heat and cooking.

These, and the government troops are the ones to be reckoned with.


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## SifuPhil (May 30, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> Phil...it's not you city boys that I would worry about...if you made it past my neighbor at the top of the road, who has innumerable firearms and a room full of ammo (God forbid his house ever catches fire, you would see the explosion for three counties) and definitely knows how to use them, you'd get half way down my road and be afraid your city cars wouldn't make it over the 500 feet of shale rock and probably abandon the whole idea.
> 
> No, it's the deep backwoods boys that I would worry about...you know the ones that have names like  Bubba, Stump, Junior Man and Big Tiny.  They  have dental and body hygiene issues and grew up eating possum stew and fried squirrels, that they killed before breakfast.  They are armed, and love their family  almost as much as they love their weapons.  Maneuvering through the woods on 4 wheelers is a past time for them..Believe me, they do exist out here and could be as much of a predator as a wolf or bear.  I personally know of some that live completely off the grid, so far back in that you are not going to visit without a four wheel drive vehicle.  No electricity and rain barrel and spring water, wood for heat and cooking.
> 
> These, and the government troops are the ones to be reckoned with.



I love those names!

But why would you be concerned about them, if they already have everything they need? I'm talking about the folks who are starving or looting for the sake of looting, and it doesn't sound as if you live in an area where police are much of a presence to start with, so if Bubba & Co. are so bad why haven't they made a run on you already? 

In the cities the only thing - and it's a very weak thing - holding us together is the cops, more specifically the fear OF them. Eliminate that fear, that idea that you'll be caught, and even church-going Chuck is going to think about busting a window or two on a shop just to see what he can get away with.

I'm firmly convinced there's a dark side to everyone, no matter how much they swear that they're 100% angel. That dark side comes out when there are no consequences involved in doing bad things. 

As for the government ... why would they want your land all of a sudden? If they really wanted it they would have had it by now. I don't see how an emergency would suddenly drive them to eminent domain your land, unless you're sitting on top of some valuable resources or your land is strategically located ...


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## TICA (May 31, 2013)

I'm just hoping to have my vegie garden and be as self sufficient as possible.  My horse is big enough he could plow the fields and I have enough wood on the land to heat the house for years.  I've made wine in the past so I'll make some again, get a cow and hope I'll survive.  The big worry is gas for the vehicles, but who knows if we would even be able to go anywhere.   Anyone with a tent can pitch it in the forest.   This reminds me of the post on Co-op housing.  If everyone contributes something, survival is possible.   I don't think we would have people stealing things as I'd be willing to share what I have.  Having said all of that - I doubt if I'll see the collapse of society in my lifetime so am not going to fret about it!


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2013)

TICA said:


> ...   I don't think we would have people stealing things as I'd be willing to share what I have.



You're _such_ an optimist! 

Remember back in elementary school, there was always the one kid who never shared - he/she just took everything you had?

Imagine them all grown up now and carrying an assault rifle. 




> Having said all of that - I doubt if I'll see the collapse of society in my lifetime so am not going to fret about it!



We never see the disasters coming until they're on top of us. Not that I _wish_ it would happen, but I like to think I'm enough of a realist to acknowledge that it _could_ happen. Prepping isn't just about end-time scenarios, either - it's about living your life being prepared to deal with ANYTHING that comes along. It's a mindset as much as it is buying silver and gold bars and stocking up on food and ammo.

I used to teach my students to perform "what-if" drills wherever they went. Basically they had to imagine that a certain person in a certain place was attacking them, and figure out what their response would be. This got them away from some of the stiff and sterile movements they learned in class; they could see how a certain technique would or would not work in the real world. 

And, they developed a more confident, more positive mindset. They learned to read situations before they developed and how to avoid them whenever possible, and their alertness levels went up considerably. All in all a bargain, considering how easy the exercises were.


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## TICA (May 31, 2013)

I am an optimist!!  I agree that it is always good to be prepared, however.....we can't live our lives wondering "what if".  People would never have any peace or serenity in their lives which is what we should be striving for.   I could be broke but if I'm at peace, then I'm OK.   I refuse to believe that most of the population is out to get me or cause havoc.  Sure, there are a lot out there that will cause trouble, but I'm a firm believer in karma and what you give is what you will get back (in most cases).  If we all go about our days looking for the negative, then sure as heck, you'll find it.  Personally, I'd rather look for the positives.


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2013)

TICA said:


> I am an optimist!!  I agree that it is always good to be prepared, however.....we can't live our lives wondering "what if".  People would never have any peace or serenity in their lives which is what we should be striving for.   I could be broke but if I'm at peace, then I'm OK.   I refuse to believe that most of the population is out to get me or cause havoc.  Sure, there are a lot out there that will cause trouble, but I'm a firm believer in karma and what you give is what you will get back (in most cases).  If we all go about our days looking for the negative, then sure as heck, you'll find it.  Personally, I'd rather look for the positives.



Ah, now, see, we find ourselves strolling down the rocky path of life philosophy! 

If you are broke, then technically you cannot be totally at peace. It's the whole mind/body thing. 

Being at peace, with both yourself and the world, is a wonderful goal. But that peace can be interrupted very easily, especially in today's world of interconnectedness and distractions. To think that you can both achieve and maintain peace without effort is a mistake. Both Gandhi and King, among many others, believed in peace and love overcoming all ... see where THEY ended up?

Being prepared and becoming a psychotic paranoid are two very different things; excess in ANY endeavor will produce negative results. I've known people that go through life blocking out any negative thought, refusing to read or watch bad news and generally acting as if everything is rainbows, unicorns and skittles. 

Now THAT is psychotic, and you'll often see them as the victims in any media story. But it isn't even about being a victim all the time - it's about awareness of your environment. So many people these days are caught up in their own problems, their own mistakes, their own little worlds, that they fail to see the REAL world all around them. 

THAT is a sin - a sin of omission, a sin of not experiencing everything the world has to offer.   

It isn't about _looking_ for the negative - it's about acknowledging that the negative _exists_ and planning what you'll do about it, because as the old saying goes "those who fail to plan should plan to fail". 

Oh, and _karma_? That misinterpreted, over-used word from the mysterious Far East? Don't count on it saving your bacon, _if_ it even exists, because the concept of karma isn't just "what goes around comes around" - it's a LOT more complex than that little sound-bite, and I've never known karma to help the families and friends of the dearly departed. Dead is dead, and that universal balancing system won't do you any good once you're gone.


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## TICA (May 31, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Ah, now, see, we find ourselves strolling down the rocky path of life philosophy!
> 
> Nothing wrong with a good chat about life philosophy!
> 
> ...



I'm sure you have a whole lot of knowledge on karma and I wasn't trying to sound like I was an expert.  In a nut shell, I believe that "what comes around - goes around";  "do unto others as you would have them do unto you";  "it takes more effort to frown than to smile"; "make every day count as it might be your last";  "try to see both sides of the story"; "acknowledge that every person has an opinion and it may not be the same as mine, but that doesn't mean it is wrong"  etc etc.  You get the picture.


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## TICA (May 31, 2013)

Sorry, I am having problems with the quote business so some of my statements show up in your original.  Another view is "s**t happens".


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2013)

TICA said:


> Sorry, I am having problems with the quote business so some of my statements show up in your original.  Another view is "s**t happens".



THAT'S true! And no problem about the quotes ... 



> Not sure what you mean by that statement?



Well, whether you meant "broke" as in "broken" or as in "not having a lot of Loonies",    it is an extreme  - it isn't balanced - and if you aren't balanced in any one area that tends to pull you away from peace.



> Never said it didn't take effort - it takes a great deal of effort.



And yet ... it can also be the simplest thing in the world, because it is mainly a _subtractive_, not an _additive_, process; we achieve peace by getting rid of things that _detract_ from it, not by adding things that may _enhance_ it. 



> That's not me - I'm always up on the news, specifically the political  news.  Here in Canada it is quite depressing news regarding the  government but I watch it, have opinions about it and ensure that I'm  fully informed and vote according to my views.



Good for you! Now see, that's two different approaches right there - you get involved with your politics; I totally shun mine. Your process is additive - mine subtractive. 



> I'm sure you have a whole lot of knowledge on karma and I wasn't trying  to sound like I was an expert.  In a nut shell, I believe that "what  comes around - goes around";  "do unto others as you would have them do  unto you";  "it takes more effort to frown than to smile"; "make every  day count as it might be your last";  "try to see both sides of the  story"; "acknowledge that every person has an opinion and it may not be  the same as mine, but that doesn't mean it is wrong"  etc etc.  You get  the picture.



I do indeed, and thank you for presenting it to me - I've enjoyed our little chat.


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## TICA (May 31, 2013)

Me too!  Now it must be time for you post another "what is it???"


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## SifuPhil (May 31, 2013)

TICA said:


> Me too!  Now it must be time for you post another "what is it???"



I think you're right - I got so caught up talking about invading aliens I forgot about the simple pleasures of life.

I'll get right on it!


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## FíorFinné (Jun 4, 2013)

*Calm down and get serious!*

The notion of a government breakdown, whatever that might actually mean, seems, at best, ludicrous.

We are a nation of fast-food-eating shopaholics, doting grandparents, confused grocery shoppers, erratic drivers, and nostalgia-fueled storytellers, not a nation of potential freedom fighters.

I’m sure it’s very romantic to think we’d erect bulwarks and ramparts, man them with gun-totin’ disaffected, arthritic, sometimes confused and sleepy seniors, and bellow that “blood will run in the streets if we don’t get our cost-of-living increase next year,” but I can’t see that happening.

Collectively, like the rest of our fellow citizens, very, very few of us have a real or accurate understanding of our government, our economics, our history, our legal system, or our social fabric.  We each live in our own little worlds, i.e., our family, our friends, our colleagues, and our acquaintances.  We take the very limited experience and knowledge we acquire from our very, very small worlds and project what we falsely think we then know about all mankind onto the greater society around us.

Society is not going to break down and we don’t have to prepare for it.  If those concerned about the possibility of societal breakdown really understood the society in which they’re a part, they’d soon realize that they’re on the bottom, that, because of their utter lack of understanding what they’re a part of, they’re incapable of initiating change, and that, in our serf-lord society, only something equal to the Black Plague can cause change.  It will not come from within.

The only change that could ever come about would be change wrought by an outside force, _e.g._, a rogue nuclear state instigating a nuclear war, an asteroid hurtling toward Earth and wreaking so much environmental damage that mankind would barely survive and, even if it survived, it would be so changed as to be almost unrecognizable, or a pandemic that would kill so many people that industrialized societies would be thrown back to the pre-industrial, agricultural age.

No, society is not going to breakdown.  Indeed, before any of us have a chance to participate in a rebellion, much less a revolution, we’d be more likely to die of a lightning strike while standing in an open field, holding a one iron up to the sky during a thunder storm.  Even God can’t hit a one iron.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 4, 2013)

That's an interesting - and very self-assured - response. And, might I add, very well-written. 

But given the history of the world - the revolutions, the wars, the societal break-downs - I'm truly mystified as to how you can be so certain that it could never happen _here_. The example you used - “blood will run in the streets if we don’t get our cost-of-living increase next year,” - was, I'm sure, meant to be a parody of my own points, since such an incident, based solely upon such a minor point, _would_ probably never happen.




> Society is not going to break down and we don’t have to prepare for it.




You know this as a _fact_? What _powers_ you must have, to be able to tell the future! MY original post only hypothesized one of a thousand possible futures, but YOU boldly proclaim the one-and-only true course of all succeeding generations! 

Impressive! 

In fact, your theory that change can / will only occur at the instigation of external forces is the theory that_ I _would call ludicrous. The enemy within is SO much more powerful, and can deal so much more damage, than any far-flung chance of global thermonuclear war. Look at it this way: how many atomic bombs have been used in anger? Now, how many social revolutions have occurred throughout history? 

Asteroids? Pandemics? Can we not count the number of these events upon the fingers of two hands and perhaps half of a foot? Pit that against the number of riots, government overthrows, underground movements ...

Your method of debate is intelligent and your writing style wonderful, I'll grant ... but you're proceeding from a false assumption. I find it hard to believe that you could be a "Head-In-The-Sand" type, yet that's precisely what your argument implies ...


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## That Guy (Jun 4, 2013)




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## That Guy (Jun 4, 2013)

Head in the sand?


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## SifuPhil (Jun 4, 2013)

Polish metal detecting.


HEY! I'm quarter Polish too! layful:


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## FíorFinné (Jun 4, 2013)

We are too lazy, too complacent, and too confused to rise up.  Also, the insidiousness of the wealthy has more or less deluded us into thinking we're in charge already.  Who's going to have the charisma to rouse us from our ignorant lethargy?  You can park rabble-rousers and demagogues on soapboxes on every major street corner in the country, but no one will heed them.  The people all have mortgages, kids who need braces or piano lessons or soccer equipment.  They're lumbered with debt and looking at even more debt if their kids get into college.  The refrigerator needs to be replaced, the car’s air conditioning stopped working, and the neighbor’s fence is falling over into their yard.  There are far, far too many pesky things with which most folks need to deal to allow them to put their lives on hold to set the government right.  Remember, _we all think we really are running things_.  To awake from that delusion isn’t enough.  We simply wouldn’t believe the truth because then we’d have to admit to having been snookered all our lives and we’d rather keep our smug pride than be exposed as long-term, willing dupes.

Don’t twist my words or my meaning.  I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I do know what’s not going to happen.  There’s a difference.  Yes, if change is to come, it will have to be triggered by an outside force so that people don’t have a choice.  My examples of outside triggers are valid and, while they’re remote, they’re not utterly impossible.  As for my proceeding from a false assumption, I’m at a loss to know the assumption to which you’re referring.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 4, 2013)

FíorFinné said:


> We are too lazy, too complacent, and too confused to rise up.




Is that the Royal We, or just the general populace We? Again, you seem to employ a very broad brush.



> Also, the insidiousness of the wealthy has more or less deluded us into thinking we're in charge already.  Who's going to have the charisma to rouse us from our ignorant lethargy?  You can park rabble-rousers and demagogues on soapboxes on every major street corner in the country, but no one will heed them.  The people all have mortgages, kids who need braces or piano lessons or soccer equipment.  They're lumbered with debt and looking at even more debt if their kids get into college.  The refrigerator needs to be replaced, the car’s air conditioning stopped working, and the neighbor’s fence is falling over into their yard.  There are far, far too many pesky things with which most folks need to deal to allow them to put their lives on hold to set the government right.



And yet ... there are people such as myself who are not so materialistically-oriented. We don't HAVE a car, OR a house; our kids are grown and gone; we have no debt because we never bought into the whole "debt is good" lie in the _first_ place. What about us?



> Remember, _we all think we really are running things_.  To awake from that delusion isn’t enough.  We simply wouldn’t believe the truth because then we’d have to admit to having been snookered all our lives and we’d rather keep our smug pride than be exposed as long-term, willing dupes.



I've never labored under the illusion that I am running things; in fact I despise the very thought of being in charge. I think what you're referring to are the masses of good little citizens who bought into the System and never left it. The ones with egos as big as their debt.

I freely admit that at various times in the past I was snookered. I will NOT so freely acknowledge that I am as gullible now - with experience comes wisdom. My cynicism, pessimism and downright distrust of human creatures helps keep me from harm in that regard.



> Don’t twist my words or my meaning.  I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I do know what’s not going to happen.  There’s a difference.  Yes, if change is to come, it will have to be triggered by an outside force so that people don’t have a choice.  My examples of outside triggers are valid and, while they’re remote, they’re not utterly impossible.  As for my proceeding from a false assumption, I’m at a loss to know the assumption to which you’re referring.



Knowing what is NOT going to happen is just as impressive a feat as knowing what _will_. 

You speak of people not having a choice - what about when the laws become so restrictive, the food so poisoned, the crime wave so tidal, the cost of merely surviving so unattainably expensive that the only two choices left are to fight or die? Does that still qualify as a choice?


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## TICA (Jun 4, 2013)

Gotta love a good debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FíorFinné (Jun 4, 2013)

Phil,

I think this topic can be interesting, but I’m put off by your wandering off the topic and making what you seem to think are arch comments, _e.g._, “royal we,” “broad brush,” etc.  Can we just stick to the topic without resorting to comments best left on the middle-school playground, please?

That said, I don’t believe that you are a candidate for the yet-to-be-formed neo-Weather Underground Organization.  Since, as you say, you never “. . . bought into the whole ‘debt is good’ lie . . . ,” you don’t really have a dog in this fight, do you?  If you did rise up against our putative masters, your opposition would be strictly philosophical rather than based on any economic interest, wouldn’t it?  While I might be wrong, your disdain for the “. . . masses of good little citizens . . .” seems to confirm that and, on that point, I agree wholeheartedly with you, although I prefer to term them the “willfully ignorant,” aka “stupid,” people.

As for your pooh-poohing my knack for prescience, you’re still wrong.  I know many things that aren’t going to happen.  For example, I will never be an astronaut and you will never win a seat as a U.S. Senator from Maine.  I also know that Americans are so damned complacent that they will never, ever rebel or revolt of their own volition.  If there’s a revolution, it will be sparked by an outside event that will give them no choice but to take matters into their own hands.


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## That Guy (Jun 4, 2013)




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## SifuPhil (Jun 4, 2013)

FíorFinné said:


> Phil,
> 
> I think this topic can be interesting, but I’m put off by your wandering off the topic and making what you seem to think are arch comments, _e.g._, “royal we,” “broad brush,” etc.  Can we just stick to the topic without resorting to comments best left on the middle-school playground, please?



Sorry, I flunked out after 7th grade.

You might want to brush up on what constitutes a modern forum discussion.


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## FíorFinné (Jun 4, 2013)

A forum discussion is a discussion that takes place on an internet forum.  A topic is on the table, various participants comment on that topic, promoting their own opinions and questioning the opinions of others, either with an eye for learning something or for finding a flaw in opposing arguments.  I apologize for having taxed your abilities.  It wasn't my intent.  Best wishes.


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## Anne (Jun 4, 2013)

FíorFinné said:


> A forum discussion is a discussion that takes place on an internet forum.  A topic is on the table, various participants comment on that topic, promoting their own opinions and questioning the opinions of others, either with an eye for learning something or for finding a flaw in opposing arguments.



Which is usually done politely, imo.....


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## FíorFinné (Jun 4, 2013)

Anne, your opinion is quite correct, but you must bear in mind that serious discussions are robust.  Brusque comments are part and parcel of intellectual exchange.  The politeness of a dinner party is entirely different from the give-and-take of a debate.  Ideas and opinions are on the table, not Royal Doulton China.  Also, there is a tremendous difference between what might be deemed impolite and downright rudeness.  Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to be more solicitous lest the oversensitive among us take offense.


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## Ozarkgal (Jun 4, 2013)

FíorFinné said:


> If there’s a revolution, it will be sparked by an outside event that will give them no choice but to take matters into their own hands.



Isn't that what usually triggers a revolution?

Also, I have to say for a new member you really made quite an introduction by picking the hottest, most debatable forum topic, and going on the attack...I think it's called trolling.


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## Anne (Jun 4, 2013)

(snip)  





FíorFinné said:


> Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to be more solicitous lest the oversensitive among us take offense.



Oversensitive?  Really??  It might be worth it to consider entering into a friendly discussion on a new forum, before jumping into a debate that could obviously get a bit tense, I should think.


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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)




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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)




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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)




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## Ozarkgal (Jun 5, 2013)

Took my dog in this fight home...think I'll just enjoy the show from here on out.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*That Guy*..you do come up with some doozies.


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## FíorFinné (Jun 5, 2013)

Anne said:


> (snip)
> 
> Oversensitive?  Really??  It might be worth it to consider entering into a friendly discussion on a new forum, before jumping into a debate that could obviously get a bit tense, I should think.



Anne, if a discussion about whether or not the government will break down is deemed to be a hot topic, then a lot of people have no concept of what's going on in the world.  Our discussion of this topic will have no effect whatsoever on the real world; our comments are mere conjecture.  How could the possible collapse of the government be a hot topic?  It has no more bearing on reality than conjecture about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, whether or not you admit not only the existence of angels, but also of dancing angels who can be cajoled into dancing on a pinhead.  If people get exercised about whether or not the government will collapse, I have to question their grasp of reality.

No, my comments are not "trolling."  They're based on the merit of the argument as I see it and, frankly, I think it has no merit whatsoever; that, however, doesn't preclude my weighing in with my 2¢.

Your comment implies that, regardless of my opinion of the basic merit of the discussion, I should treat it as a valid and reasonable subject and that's not in the cards.  If a foolish proposition is on the table, its foolishness has to be pointed out; the alternative is the basis of the Hans Christian Andersen short tale, _The Emperor's New Clothes_.


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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)




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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)




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## Happyflowerlady (Jun 5, 2013)

FiorFinne, as Phil said, you have posted several well-written thoughts into the forum topic. 

Your views may even have merit, although you claim the topic is not worth discussing, so it doesn't really matter if you are right or not.
What  DOES matter, is that this forum is a group of friendly older  folks who ENJOY their discussions, regardless of the topic, and furthermore, we all enjoy each other....... We are FRIENDS, even though only Internet friends.  We do our best to express ourselves to one another, and do it in a kind and caring way, not to just pick apart what the other person think, feels, or believes. 
We respect each other as a unique human being, not as a lower life form, as you seem to address everyone. Your statement, as follows, pretty well sums up your opinion of everyone here : 

While I might be wrong, your disdain for the “. . . masses of good little citizens . . .” seems to confirm that and, on that point, I agree wholeheartedly with you, although I prefer to term them the “willfully ignorant,” aka “stupid,” people.

That you even include Phil as believing the same thing as you is SO wrong, as to be totally ludicrous, which you would have realized, had you bothered to read through some of our other discussions in this forum, and you would have found that Phil is a kind and caring person, who has tried to uplift his fellow man, not degrade them, as you do.

If you are ever going to be a real part of this group, then be someone who values the people here. If you just want to be in a debate, there are a lot of other forums dedicated to that. The choice is up to you.


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## That Guy (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks, HFL!  I enjoy the people and the vibe here which why I keep coming back.  I can always go elsewhere for snippy comments and abuse.  We've certainly had our differences here which is to be expected.  But, we've always handled them in a warm and friendly way and I cherish that.


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## TICA (Jun 6, 2013)

Totally agree with you both HFL and TG!!  I've been on other forums (not senior ones)  where you hold your breath when you post because someone will stomp on you with both feet.  Not everyone knows everything and I like the way this forum is friendly with lots of helpful suggestions and provides information on what matters to the majority of the members.  The combination of serious discussion and the humor is just right and I look forward everyday to see who has posted what.  Debate is great, but keep it respectful and don't bash someone personally if they don't hold the same view as you.

Rant finished......


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## rkunsaw (Jun 6, 2013)

Well said Happyflowerlady.


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