# Another ethics question - the death of Cecil the Lion



## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

An American dentist, an avid game hunter has killed a much loved lion in Zimbabwe.
He has been pilloried on social media.

Some background reading - there's plenty more on the net - before you rush to comment.



> The US hunter who killed Cecil the lion, has issued an apology stating that he "deeply regrets" his actions and did not realise the majestic animal was so revered.
> 
> The 13-year-old prized lion was lured from Hwange National Park, a Zimbabwean nature reserve, on 1 July. He was shot with a crossbow, before being tracked for 40 hours and then shot with a rifle. The lion was then decapitated and skinned for trophies.
> 
> ...





> Until two days ago, Walter Palmer was a "very private" man living in Eden Prairie, Minnesota with his wife and two children. He practised general and cosmetic dentistry from a red brick surgery in nearby Bloomington and hunted animals with a bow and arrow for leisure.
> 
> Then Zimbabwean conservationists named him at a press conference on Tuesday as the killer of Cecil, a beloved lion and prime tourist attraction at the Hwange National Park. That was the moment the dentist's old life ended. If precedents are a guide, he will never get it back.
> 
> ...



There's more here, including a number of tweets:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/...-of-an-online-hate-storm-20150729-gimo7h.html

Your thoughts on the ethics of hunting and public shaming on social media. How does actual jail sentences for the Zimbabweans compare with social shaming for the dentist.

Just a reminder, a good place to start discussing is to select one or more of these principles and apply them to this situation

*Ethical principles include:
*


Beneficence - to do good.
Non-maleficence - to do no harm.
Respect for Autonomy.
Fairness.
Truthfulness.
Justice.


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## merlin (Jul 29, 2015)

Well as I said in another thread, things happen in the universe and there are consequences. Walter Palmer brought some of his primitive hunter gatherer instincts into the 21st century and turned them into a leisure pursuit, presumably he got some adrenaline rush or another survival instinct reward. Its not right or wrong, but there are now consequences, the majority of the population suppress their primitive instincts, so he will be vilified for not doing so.


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## Linda (Jul 29, 2015)

To me, the fact that it was Cecil is beside the point.  I don't think trophy hunting should be legal anywhere in the world.  And morally I don't see how anyone could think it's OK.  How can that man look at himself in the mirror every morning as he shaves?  I had a low opinion of Roy Rogers for the same reason.  I have helped my dad kill chickens and rabbits to eat before but I don't think it's ok to just kill for the fun of it.  I could say more about why that dentist might want to kill large virile animals but it might get me kicked off from here so I'll just keep it to myself.  (Or post it over on Facebook)


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## Ameriscot (Jul 29, 2015)

It's disgusting that anyone gets pleasure out of killing wildlife for sport. What kind of person enjoys that??!! I didn't even know you could legally still do that.

I'm shocked at the number of people who still think African safaris still mean killing wildlife. I've been on many safaris but these are for photographic or simply enjoying watching them.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

I'm going to start with the Zimbabweans, Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter and guide and Honest Trymore Ndlovu, a land owner and professional hunter

From the story I deduce the following:

_"The professional hunters scented the area by dragging a dead animal" _They knew that the lion was not available for hunting in the national park so they lured it onto private property.

_"the land owner was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015"  T_here was no legal permit for this kill.

They have both been charged with poaching, for which the maximum penalty is 15 years. 
Are they being treated with justice, and is it fair that the dentist is not also on trial?


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## mitchezz (Jul 29, 2015)

I can never understand why hunters think it's a manly pursuit or a fair fight. Arm the animals and see how brave these guys are. What happens when all the wildlife is gone? What or who will be fair game then?


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## Ameriscot (Jul 29, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> I can never understand why hunters think it's a manly pursuit or a fair fight. Arm the animals and see how brave these guys are. What happens when all the wildlife is gone? What or who will be fair game then?



There are so many endangered species now and many are now extinct.  And I think most of this is due to poaching or legal/illegal game hunting.  Look at the elephants who are killed for ivory.  Infuriates me!


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

Wild lions are now less numerous than captive ones. They are in trouble as a species.


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## Debby (Jul 29, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I'm going to start with the Zimbabweans, Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter and guide and Honest Trymore Ndlovu, a land owner and professional hunter
> 
> From the story I deduce the following:
> 
> ...




What's that saying, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'?  That dentist was a participant in an illegal act, and apparently after the cat was butchered they tried to cut the collar off of it!  So he's involved, he's guilty.

And aside from that, bow hunting?!!!!  For forty hours that poor animal wandered through the bush with an arrow stuck in his body!  Can you imagine how he suffered?  Personally, I hope his practise dies as surely as his victims do.  And maybe his kids will learn something from this experience, that 'your meanest, cruelest actions have consequences that are far from pleasant'.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 29, 2015)

Debby said:


> What's that saying, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'?  That dentist was a participant in an illegal act, and apparently after the cat was butchered they tried to cut the collar off of it!  So he's involved, he's guilty.
> 
> And aside from that, bow hunting?!!!!  For forty hours that poor animal wandered through the bush with an arrow stuck in his body!  Can you imagine how he suffered?  Personally, I hope his practise dies as surely as his victims do.  And maybe his kids will learn something from this experience, that 'your meanest, cruelest actions have consequences that are far from pleasant'.



Agree!


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## Jackie22 (Jul 29, 2015)

*In 2008, Palmer pleaded guilty in federal court in Wisconsin to misleading a federal agent in connection with the hunting of a black bear. Two years earlier, Palmer killed a bear near Phillips, in Price County. That location was 40 miles outside where he held a permit to hunt bear.* 

Palmer and others transported the bear carcass to a registration station inside the allowed hunting zone. At the station, he falsely certified that the bear had been killed in the legal zone. He then brought the bear to Minnesota. 

Twice, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service agent interviewed Palmer, who said he believed he killed the bear legally. 

Facing a maximum penalty of five years in prison, Palmer was sentenced to one year’s probation and fined nearly $3,000. 

*Trouble also has found Palmer away from his hunting expeditions. 

In 2009, he and the Minnesota Board of Dentistry agreed to a settlement involving allegations that he sexually harassed a receptionist. She alleged that Palmer made comments about her breasts, buttocks and genitalia. 

Without admitting guilt, Palmer settled and paid $127,500 to the woman, who also was his patient. The settlement included references to his bear-hunting conviction and “substandard record keeping.”*


*THE REST*: 

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-23972-Lion killer a convicted poacher in the US/news.aspx


What a creep!  I agree with Linda, trophy hunting should be illegal.

On my facebook, there is a person that post pictures of their very young daughter in a small room with all the complete body stuffed animal trophies.....disgusting.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

No Debby, I was looking at the elements one by one. I haven't started on the dentist yet.

If the Walter Palmer was before me as a juror I would be looking at his background to determine how reasonable it is that he claims that he thought everything was being done legally.

_"Palmer's profile lists 43 kills including caribou, deer, buffalo, moose and a polar bear"._  Palmer is an experienced hunter. He knows that there are laws and that the laws vary from country to country and state to state. Experienced hunters talk to each other and discuss these things. Why didn't he ask to see the paperwork? 

_"In 2003 he was fined for fishing without a licence" _and_ "He was convicted in 2008 in relation to the poaching of a black bear" in Wisconsin in 2006. _Palmer has a history of not bothering with the laws and regulations when he wants a trophy. 

Palmer has said "_To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted." 
_It is hard to believe that an experienced "hunter" wouldn't smell a rat when he was taken to a place where a magnificent male lion was feasting on prey just 500 metres outside the perimeter of a national park, just waiting to be shot with a cross bow. A novice might think this was just a lucky co-incidence but an experienced hunter would know exactly what was happening here. 

Looking at the justice principle I think his behaviour warrants criminal charges and a trial. I don't think he will be brought to justice though.


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## Happyflowerlady (Jul 29, 2015)

From what has been said about Palmer; it certainly sounds like doing things legally was not always part of his considerations, since he was charged with illegal killing of animals before. 
According to the story about the bear, they dragged it into the area where it would have been legal, but he was obviously hunting where he knew he should not have been hunting, and that didn't stop him. 
So, it certainly sounds like he also knew that he would be shooting a lion off of the preserve, and probably paid extra to get one from there. 
What they did not expect was that the lion would have a collar and be tracked, so they would be caught in the act of doing this. 
I think that he was probably as responsible for what happened as the guides were, and maybe even more, although they all knew they were conducting an illegal hunt.


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Disgusting, this lowlife should be charged!


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

Would the US consent to an extradition order from Zimbabwe? 
There would have to be a treaty/agreement and I doubt that there would be one.


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## Misty (Jul 29, 2015)

So Very, Very, sad! I Loved the video that showed Cecil being raised by two young men, and Cecil still remembered them years later, when they came to the nature reserve, and they got to see his family. I have the book about his life too. This dentist deserves to be sent to prison!  From his criminal background, he seems to think he can do anything he wants....he is a lowlife!

i was mistaken....the lion I mentioned was Christian, not Cecil. Just saw a video of Cecil, and he was a beauty, had a family, and he was a revered part of the park for 13 years. He and his family would be seen walking in the park every day.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 29, 2015)

This sounds like one of those "canned" hunts to me, where the animals are basically fenced in on someone's property so they have nowhere to run to escape the hunter.  Those types of hunts should be outlawed everywhere.  It's a shame about that particular lion, but as Linda already mentioned, no lions or any other animals should be killed like that, just so some rich hunter can have a trophy to gloat about.  Killing animals for food is one thing, this senseless killing to boost the egos of weak men (and women) should be banned.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Debby said:


> What's that saying, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'?  That dentist was a participant in an illegal act, and apparently after the cat was butchered they tried to cut the collar off of it!  So he's involved, he's guilty.
> 
> And aside from that, bow hunting?!!!!  For forty hours that poor animal wandered through the bush with an arrow stuck in his body!  Can you imagine how he suffered?  Personally, I hope his practise dies as surely as his victims do.  And maybe his kids will learn something from this experience, that 'your meanest, cruelest actions have consequences that are far from pleasant'.



Well said Debby, I wish the bastard all the bad luck he has earned.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

If you look up this morons dental site, here's the reviews he's getting now!!!!

https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=utf...s&lrd=0x87f622d6f87e6c4b:0x55f47b8884252a04,1


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## Kitties (Jul 29, 2015)

Jump to conclusions. I'm disgusted. I saw this on CNN last night and had to change the channel. I'm still ill inside. This is sick what someone does with their money. This is what gives someone pleasure? What happens to this person I have no control over. I think they are gross. I hope many stop going to his practice. I sure would.

This isn't sport.


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## AprilT (Jul 29, 2015)

Everytime I see this guy's pictures, I just think of those kids who grew up to be serial killers, you know the ones who got a kick out of killing people's pets.  Not saying that's one of his hidden sports, but, just a vibe I get when I look into that face and faces of people who have such smiles of those who kill for sport.  I've been so completely horrified ever since seeing and hearing all the stories about this hunt and others like it, but especially this one of late.  Unfortunately, there are many in his camp who see no problem with doing such things and worse; it is in their nature right or wrong depending on one's perspective.


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## Butterfly (Jul 30, 2015)

I, also, strongly condemn killing for sport.  Legal or not, IMHO killing that animal as a trophy was a despicable act.  There is nothing ethical about killing for the fun of it.  Period.


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## chic (Jul 30, 2015)

Big game hunting should be a thing of the past along with circuses. It's hard to believe intelligent educated people still do this and that such a beautiful animal could be executed in such a way. Perhaps the negative publicity will diminish this dentist's practice. I wouldn't go to him after learning this. Would you?


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## mitchezz (Jul 30, 2015)

I so want to see this boofhead punished with gaol time. The more I read the angrier I get.


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## RadishRose (Jul 30, 2015)

The killer-dentist has gone into hiding says the news this morning. He sent an email to his patients explaining something about the business being interrupted.

How does it feel to be hunted Dr. Palmer?


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## QuickSilver (Jul 30, 2015)

It is heartening to see the HUGE public outrage against this moron.  Hopefully he will never be able to show his disgusting face in public.. or practice dentistry again. That would be the very least of a punishment..  I'm hoping he is put in jail, or extradited back to Africa to stand trial.


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## Debby (Jul 30, 2015)

Kitties said:


> Jump to conclusions. I'm disgusted. I saw this on CNN last night and had to change the channel. I'm still ill inside. This is sick what someone does with their money. This is what gives someone pleasure? What happens to this person I have no control over. I think they are gross. I hope many stop going to his practice. I sure would.
> 
> This isn't sport.





I agree with you Kitties, and what burns every time I hear about this story, they frame it within the context of 'trophy hunting'.  This morning a guy said '....people enjoy trophy hunting....' when what they should be saying is 'some people enjoy killing things'.  Because they aren't doing it to survive (heads and skins only is their 'trophy') and if it was about 'honing' their accuracy with their weapon of choice, they'd be shooting at targets.  But no, it's a living creature, that suffers, bleeds and dies.  

In my opinion, trophy hunters are serial killers, same motivations, same methods, same result.


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## Debby (Jul 30, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> The killer-dentist has gone into hiding says the news this morning. He sent an email to his patients explaining something about the business being interrupted.
> 
> *How does it feel to be hunted Dr. Palmer*?




Love, love, love your comment RadishRose!


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## RadishRose (Jul 30, 2015)

Debby said:


> I agree with you Kitties, and what burns every time I hear about this story, they
> within the context of 'trophy hunting'.  This morning a guy said '....people enjoy trophy hunting....' when what they should be saying is 'some people enjoy killing things'.  Because they aren't doing it to survive (heads and skins only is their 'trophy') and if it was about 'honing' their accuracy with their weapon of choice, they'd be shooting at targets.  But no, it's a living creature, that suffers, bleeds and dies.
> 
> In my opinion, trophy hunters are serial killers, same motivations, same methods, same result.



I also love yours, Debby. So true.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 30, 2015)

Debby said:


> What's that saying, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'?  That dentist was a participant in an illegal act, and apparently after the cat was butchered they tried to cut the collar off of it!  So he's involved, he's guilty.
> 
> And aside from that, bow hunting?!!!!  For forty hours that poor animal wandered through the bush with an arrow stuck in his body!  Can you imagine how he suffered?  Personally, I hope his practise dies as surely as his victims do.  And maybe his kids will learn something from this experience, that 'your meanest, cruelest actions have consequences that are far from pleasant'.



The guide was the one who should've kept him legal regardless and he did not.  Although as much hunting as this guy has done he should be able to distinguish things like boundaries and no kill areas. The fact that they even baited/lured the lion to make it legal should have rang bells in his head. 

Did anybody actually get the meat other than nature?


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2015)

Cecil's bones will be used in some kind of memorial but right now they are lying out in the open, being consumed by natural consumer organisms.

I once watched a kangaroo carcase reduced to bare bones in a week, mainly due to the action of ants and flies.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 30, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Would the US consent to an extradition order from Zimbabwe?
> There would have to be a treaty/agreement and I doubt that there would be one.



I read that there is a petition out with over 100,000 signatures to do this.


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## RadishRose (Jul 30, 2015)

I would like to sign that petition.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 30, 2015)

Hi RR....here is a link to the petition, it is now over 800,000 signatures...

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/821/738/351/demand-justice-for-cecil-the-lion-in-zimbambwe/


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## AZ Jim (Jul 30, 2015)

The dentist has new trouble....

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/obama-wildlife-agency-wants-to-speak-with-cecil-125445431606.html


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## QuickSilver (Jul 30, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Hi RR....here is a link to the petition, it is now over 800,000 signatures...
> 
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/821/738/351/demand-justice-for-cecil-the-lion-in-zimbambwe/



I signed it yesterday


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## RadishRose (Jul 30, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Hi RR....here is a link to the petition, it is now over 800,000 signatures...
> 
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/821/738/351/demand-justice-for-cecil-the-lion-in-zimbambwe/



Thanks Jackie! I have signed it.


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## Butterfly (Jul 30, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> The guide was the one who should've kept him legal regardless and he did not.  Although as much hunting as this guy has done he should be able to distinguish things like boundaries and no kill areas. The fact that they even baited/lured the lion to make it legal should have rang bells in his head.
> 
> Did anybody actually get the meat other than nature?



Legal or not, IMHO it is a morally reprehensible act to kill for "fun."   I can't even express how disgusted I am that people pay/take money to kill a beautiful wild beast just for fun.


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## Glinda (Jul 30, 2015)

Palmer must be extradited and made to pay for this outrageous crime but, more importantly, this disgusting practice of "trophy hunting" must stop.  It's sickening and infuriating beyond words.


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## Butterfly (Jul 30, 2015)

Glinda said:


> Palmer must be extradited and made to pay for this outrageous crime but, more importantly, this disgusting practice of "trophy hunting" must stop.  It's sickening and infuriating beyond words.



Absolutely agree!!!  I realize we can't control what other countries make legal, but the US should somehow make it illegal for its citizens to participate in such practices and illegal to bring such "trophies" into the US.


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## chic (Jul 31, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> The killer-dentist has gone into hiding says the news this morning. He sent an email to his patients explaining something about the business being interrupted.
> 
> How does it feel to be hunted Dr. Palmer?



So true. Now he knows first hand what it feels like to be "the hunted". Not a nice feeling for sure. The lion may be dead, but he wins this round.


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## chic (Jul 31, 2015)

Some closing observations on the death of Cecil. Why do some educated successful wealthy men feel it necessary to hunt, kill and maim a large predator? I say SOME men, because I know most men here would never do this. What satisfaction can there be? What purpose does it serve? Wouldn't it have been better for Dr. Palmer to use his wealth to learn photography, travel to Africa ( or wherever ) and capture some unforgettable shots of the wildlife there that everyone could marvel at and appreciate for all time?

I simply do not understand some men's need to kill like this.


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## Kitties (Jul 31, 2015)

Glinda said:


> Palmer must be extradited and made to pay for this outrageous crime but, more importantly, this disgusting practice of "trophy hunting" must stop.  It's sickening and infuriating beyond words.



I agree. I'm still trying to deal with my anger. I haven't eaten meat in almost 25 years. I don't use eggs or dairy. I've been in bed thinking of animals being killed in slaughter houses, but this sadness and anger, I don't know what to do with. Right now I'm mad at the world and everyone in it. Including myself I should add.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 31, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> I read that there is a petition out with over 100,000 signatures to do this.


There is one on the White House petition site which I signed.


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## fishfulthinking (Jul 31, 2015)

Lets call a UN meeting with all the animals to see who wants to go toe to toe with this idiot.  I choose the polar bear and lion to take him on.  What a creeep


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## doat (Jul 31, 2015)

With all the years of big game poaching going on in Africa, they are making a issue about an old lion.  Wonder if this is some kind of vendetta?


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 31, 2015)

Looks like The Donald Jr. gets his jollies like this.

*6. Eric Trump & Donald Trump Jr.*








The trump sons, Donald Trump Jr., left, with his brother, Eric, carrying their trophy kill, a wild leopard. Photo Credit: 2oceansvibe.com

​In 2012, Donald Trump’s sons, Donald Jr. and Eric, received their five minutes of fame after pictures surfaced of the two posing with dead wild animals. Among the animals killed were an elephant, kudu, civet cat, crocodile, and waterbuck. When activists voiced their outrage, Don Jr. pretentiously replied that his kills were feeding a village. 

For someone who considers himself a businessman—_meaning he works at daddy’s firm—Don seemed to be missing the bigger picture. For example, villagers would have been better served with resources to set up non-hunting wild safaris that would not only help their economy for years, but also assist in preserving their most precious resource, the wildlife—instead of only feeding villagers for a few days.

 This is a case of two entitled apples not falling far from the moronic tree. Hey boys, here’s an idea: spend daddy’s money on something helpful instead of destroying the world’s natural heritage.
_
_- See more at: http://www.globalanimal.org/2015/07/30/animal-cruelty-hall-of-shame/#sthash.7upr7TCA.dpuf_


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## AZ Jim (Jul 31, 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33733722

The doc has a date in Africa and it's official.


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## oakapple (Jul 31, 2015)

Linda said:


> To me, the fact that it was Cecil is beside the point.  I don't think trophy hunting should be legal anywhere in the world.  And morally I don't see how anyone could think it's OK.  How can that man look at himself in the mirror every morning as he shaves?  I had a low opinion of Roy Rogers for the same reason.  I have helped my dad kill chickens and rabbits to eat before but I don't think it's ok to just kill for the fun of it.  I could say more about why that dentist might want to kill large virile animals but it might get me kicked off from here so I'll just keep it to myself.  (Or post it over on Facebook)


I think exactly the same as you Linda.


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## oakapple (Jul 31, 2015)

But I would also add..... To anyone who says ' he should never  have a dental practice again etc.' This is his livelihood  and he has every right to be a dentist, his family would suffer otherwise, not just him.There is too much hate out there.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 31, 2015)

Roy Rogers?


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## oakapple (Jul 31, 2015)

With any luck, this will bring all the hunting of big game into the spotlight.


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## Don M. (Jul 31, 2015)

I have hunted for decades....primarily for the meat...venison is one of the tastiest and healthiest meats a person can eat.  However, I have never understood the desire to kill just for sport, and having some animals mounted head hanging on the wall.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 31, 2015)

*Sen. Bob Menendez intros CECIL Act to restrict big-game hunting*

By ADAM B. LERNER
7/31/15 1:11 PM EDT
Updated 7/31/15 2:09 PM EDT


Sen. Bob Menendez has introduced legislation to curb trophy hunting of endangered and threatened species after the demise of Cecil, an African lion whose death at the hands of an American hunter touched off a social media firestorm.
The Conserving Ecosystems by Ceasing the Importation of Large Animal Trophies Act would extend restrictions on the import and export of animals that are being considered for inclusion under the Endangered Species Act. Currently, the restrictions apply only to animals already on the list.
Story Continued Below


The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service had suggested the African lion be listed as “threatened” in October, but has yet to confirm the listing.
“Let’s not be cowardly lions when it comes to trophy killings,” said Menendez, a new Jersey Democrat. “Cecil’s death was a preventable tragedy that highlights the need to extend the protections of the Endangered Species Act. When we have enough concern about the future of a species to propose it for listing, we should not be killing it for sport.”
Sens. Cory Booker (D-N.J.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.) have all signed on as co-sponsors of the legislation.
Cecil, a male African lion who was well known around Zimbabwe for a friendly demeanor and participation in a study that tracked his movements by GPS, was killed by a Minnesota dentist earlier this month. Zimbabwe’s government has reportedly requested the extradition of Cecil’s alleged killer, Walter Palmer, who had plead guilty to a felony charge in the U.S. for shooting a black bear in Wisconsin in 2006.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...ting-africa-species-120857.html#ixzz3hVPmX9wQ


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2015)

If Cecil was human, he might be considered to be a martyr for the survival of his species.

Let's hope his death brings some lasting benefits for endangered species.
It's not only hunting/poaching that is the problem; loss of habitat is even more serious.


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## Don M. (Jul 31, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> If Cecil was human, he might be considered to be a martyr for the survival of his species.
> 
> Let's hope his death brings some lasting benefits for endangered species.
> It's not only hunting/poaching that is the problem; loss of habitat is even more serious.



I read a report a few weeks ago that said Earth is losing over 300 species of animal and plant life every year....much of that due to human encroachment and pollution.


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## Debby (Aug 1, 2015)

oakapple said:


> But I would also add..... To anyone who says ' he should never  have a dental practice again etc.' This is his livelihood  and he has every right to be a dentist, his family would suffer otherwise, not just him.There is too much hate out there.




You're right, we 'hate' that Cecil died so that somebody who doesn't care how much animals suffer, could hang his head on their wall.  If this had been about a man who was hunting to feed his family, most of the world would have said absolutely nothing.  Even I as a vegan would have been silent because I figure, at least a hunted wild animal has a better life than any of the animals that society customarily eats these days.  But this guy likes killing animals, he does it with a bow so often times I'm sure, like Cecil did, they suffer for hours before they are finally killed. 

That guy is like a serial killer but his victims are animals.  He goes out, kills them for fun, and then takes their heads as souvenirs.  Sounds like a serial killer to me.  And he potentially trains his children to grow up by their proximity to his lifestyle, to be serial killers too.  And if he loses his practice, then it's a resounding statement by the public that what he does is intolerable and he's brought it on himself.  I don't feel the least bit sorry for him and I hope that he gets to spend a year in a Zimbabwe jail thinking about Cecil, Cecil's cubs that will in all likelihood be dead soon.....and how he got himself there.

As for his family, well, that's too bad, but if that bum could blow $50,000.00 on this one hunt (and think about all the other times he's done that) than I'm sure they've got some savings they can live on til they get themselves going again.  And they can learn a lesson from this too.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 1, 2015)

That ass didn't think about Cecil and his Pride with 24 cubs...when he slaughtered him.   It was a concern that other males would move in to take over the Pride of females and kill all of Cecil's cubs..   Fortunately I understand that Cecil's brother has stepped in and is protecting the cubs..  

I have no concern for the Murderer's family..   They'll figure it out... who cares.


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## Debby (Aug 1, 2015)

doat said:


> With all the years of big game poaching going on in Africa, they are making a issue about an old lion.  Wonder if this is some kind of vendetta?



I think what you're seeing is the collective outrage of the world at how a self-important man get's his jollies by firstly causing great suffering and then killing an animal that was protected by law.  The only vendetta is all of us wanting justice for that animal.  It's no different than if I lure your cat or dog out of your yard and then torture it and kill it.


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## Debby (Aug 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That ass didn't think about Cecil and his Pride with 24 cubs...when he slaughtered him.   It was a concern that other males would move in to take over the Pride of females and kill all of Cecil's cubs..   Fortunately I understand that Cecil's brother has stepped in and is protecting the cubs..
> 
> I have no concern for the Murderer's family..   They'll figure it out... who cares.




Sure hope you're right about the other lion taking over as a protective leader QS and I'm with you on the rest.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 1, 2015)

Animal abuse is one of my hot buttons..  I don't think much makes me angrier or enrages me more.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2015)

Debby said:


> Sure hope you're right about the other lion taking over as a protective leader QS and I'm with you on the rest.


I hope so too.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 1, 2015)

http://www.inquisitr.com/2298189/cecil-the-lions-brother-is-protecting-his-cubs/




> It now appears that





> Cecil’s cubs are unlikely to suffer that fate. Though the research team from Oxford University’s Wildlife Conservation Unit feared that the next animal in the hierarchy, Jericho, may kill the cubs, they note that he is instead safeguarding them. That assessment was echoed by Johnny Rodrigues, Chairman of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, as the _Daily Mail_ reports.
> Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2298189/cecil-the-lions-brother-is-protecting-his-cubs/#U3XUJoF70uK0o8YE.99


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2015)

So the lion is behaving more ethically than the poacher ? 
Noble lion, ignoble man. Why do I now feel ashamed ?


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## QuickSilver (Aug 1, 2015)

Yes... Jericho is Cecil's brother.. and he is a noble animal.. isn't he..  He was next in line but is honoring his brother.  He didn't have to..


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## Misty (Aug 1, 2015)

BREAKING NEWS: Cecil the lion's brother Jericho shot dead by poachers in Zimbabwean park
By WILLS ROBINSON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 12:55 EST, 1 August 2015 | UPDATED: 13:33 EST, 1 August 2015

Cecil the lion's brother Jericho has been shot dead by poachers in a park in Zimbabwe. 
The animal was protecting Cecil's lion cubs after he was shot dead by Minnesota dentist, Walter Palmer earlier this month, sparking outrage around the world.  
Johnny Rodrigues, Chairman for Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, said in a statement: 'It is with great sadness and regret that we report that Jericho was shot dead at 4pm this afternoon. 
'We are absolutely heartbroken. We have no further details but will advise as soon as we know more.' 


Before his death there had been concerns Jericho would not be able to hold the territory of Cecil's cubs alone and could be chased away by rival lions. 
Unprotected, the lionesses and cubs are now under threat and also move away or be killed.
Last week Mr Rodrigues, told the Daily Mail Online Jericho was keeping the cubs safe from any rival males.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-poachers-Zimbabwean-park.html#ixzz3haeXX0My 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## RadishRose (Aug 1, 2015)

I read more about this Dr. Palmer. I'm not really familiar with UK's Daily Mail, but thought it insteresting to check this out:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-killed-Cecil-lion-speaks-vilified-world.html

*Tammy Brevik sued Dr Walter Palmer claiming he sexually harassed her when she worked for Minneapolis dentist from 1999 to 2005*
*She received $127,500 settlement after lawsuit and he had to undergo ethics training*


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lion-speaks-vilified-world.html#ixzz3halM5aEV 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

If this actually happened, he's absolutely pond scum!​


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## AZ Jim (Aug 1, 2015)

It sure did happen and he is pond scum.  His extradition back to Zimbabwe has been requested by officials there.


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## rt3 (Aug 1, 2015)

There is no ethic questions here, simply a bunch of folks ignorant about what is really going on in the world and taken up with their own hypocrisy. 
Next time you set down to a meat meal think about it, your so pathetic you have to have someone make the kill for you. Jericho was holding the territory etc. if you believe that your as naive as --- well it is obvious you never hunted cats.

Zimbabwe doesn't have the gov. Set up to extradite anybody. In the rest of the world this is a non event. Compared to the poaching that goes on in Zimbabwe and Africa in general this makes the death of Mickey Mouse overdue. But I did hear that 10,000 of the petition signers were up for charges for wearing poached ivory, and wearing blood diamonds. 
My  hunting  friend in SA says the natives are partying because they will lose less cattle and will not need to poach so much. He says the genetic pool for that area needed changing anyway, as Cecil and the other Disneyfied animals in the particular area were past the prime reproductive years. 
As for the dentist, him and a Bill Clinton probably share the same escort list. The dentist was a good bow hunter and 40 hours to die is anti hunting propaganda.


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## rt3 (Aug 1, 2015)

Unable to post pic. But it says

"thank goodness Cecil is dead"

"Zebra lives do matter"


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## AZ Jim (Aug 1, 2015)

People who hunt for bragging rights or trophies are the lowest form of humanity.  When I lived in the mountains of Idaho, I was hiking and came upon a freshly killed Elk with no head.  Left to rot by the jerk who killed it.  Nature is cruel but no match for those of use who "bravely" go into the wilds "merely" armed with high power rifles with telescopic sights  or Bows.  Then to make sure the odds are ALL on these jerks side set up at a bait station or water hole knowing that hapless animal will fall victim to their arrogance.  As to the 40 hours to die, I'll take the word of the coward who shot the Lion who reported it himself.

I guess I am one of the "ignorant" people as you call us, but at least I'm man enough not to have to go out and kill innocent animals to show how superior I am.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 1, 2015)

rt3 said:


> There is no ethic questions here, simply a bunch of folks ignorant about what is really going on in the world and taken up with their own hypocrisy.
> Next time you set down to a meat meal think about it, your so pathetic you have to have someone make the kill for you. Jericho was holding the territory etc. if you believe that your as naive as --- well it is obvious you never hunted cats.
> 
> Zimbabwe doesn't have the gov. Set up to extradite anybody. In the rest of the world this is a non event. Compared to the poaching that goes on in Zimbabwe and Africa in general this makes the death of Mickey Mouse overdue. But I did hear that 10,000 of ythe petition signers were up for charges for wearing poached ivory, and wearing blood diamonds.
> ...



I don't think it's ignorance but it is misplaced priority. Yes poaching is a criminal act but it is worthy of the lynch mob mentality on this issue alone-no. The issues of recreational game have been there and still will be there after the dust has settled. It is frustrating is that the only one to get the meat was nature. It should've been butchered and given to a village of poor for a couple of meals.

 It is also frustrating to see all those who now want to ban hunting period. Not only does hunting serve a purpose if done responsibly it is hypocritical of those to complain about hunting especially if they buy store prepared meat where the animal was caged and killed in a slaughterhouse production line style. Hey I want to see free range farms and good treatment while alive but there is still space and reasons for hunting in today's society.

The killing of this lion was a crime and a shame but it is not worth all the attention it is currently getting. It deserves some attention but when I see a 'breaking news' flash on CNN that Cecil's brother was killed this story has surpassed way out of proportion.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 1, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> ... It deserves some attention but when I see a 'breaking news' flash on CNN that Cecil's brother was killed this story has surpassed way out of proportion.



I heard his sister has postponed her wedding to Simba ...


----------



## Falcon (Aug 1, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> People who hunt for bragging rights or trophies are the lowest form of humanity.  When I lived in the mountains of Idaho, I was hiking and came upon a freshly killed Elk with no head.  Left to rot by the jerk who killed it.  Nature is cruel but no match for those of use who "bravely" go into the wilds "merely" armed with high power rifles with telescopic sights  or Bows.  Then to make sure the odds are ALL on these jerks side set up at a bait station or water hole knowing that hapless animal will fall victim to their arrogance.  As to the 40 hours to die, I'll take the word of the coward who shot the Lion who reported it himself.
> 
> I guess I am one of the "ignorant" people as you call us, but at least I'm man enough not to have to go out and kill innocent animals to show how superior I am.



 Well said Jim.  I agree with you.     (This time anyway.)


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## rt3 (Aug 1, 2015)

You don't really know how long the lion took to die, depends on wound area, need t o track. If shot in the butt, maybe longer, but that's ok go sing the Lion King song and pretend some more. No doubt more will come out of this, especially the vague hunting laws in Zimbabwe. It's not like Jellystone, regulated and they don't have state wild life divisions etc, but then the Internet doesn't lie and of course you have been there.  A crime may have been committed by a zim official in taking the money, but this has been going on for decades. The only thing this episode does is inform the ignorant. Crime is something that has a legal definition, with penalty. It can be a moral construct, which means nothin more than pick a side.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 1, 2015)

Weak but what the hell, when you don't  have the aces or face cards, play the deuces and treys and pray.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 1, 2015)

Misty said:


> BREAKING NEWS: Cecil the lion's brother Jericho shot dead by poachers in Zimbabwean park
> By WILLS ROBINSON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
> PUBLISHED: 12:55 EST, 1 August 2015 | UPDATED: 13:33 EST, 1 August 2015
> 
> ...



Just a rumor.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lion-brother-jericho_55bd1261e4b0d4f33a030d2b?


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## Misty (Aug 1, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Just a rumor.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lion-brother-jericho_55bd1261e4b0d4f33a030d2b?



Very Good news, SeaBreeze.....thanks for the information.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2015)

Pleased to hear it but not pleased about this bit:



> An unidentified foreign hunter killed the second lion (not Jericho) illegally on July 3, a park official told Reuters.



Presumably some hunting is legalised and controlled to prevent lions and other species fro becoming more threatened than they already are. The illegal hunters/poachers are undermining these aims.

One can sympathise with the locals who need bush meat but who eats big cats?


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Weak but what the hell, when you don't  have the aces or face cards, play the deuces and treys and pray.



Don't you have anything but "straw man" arguements?


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## AZ Jim (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Don't you have anything but "straw man" arguements?



I made my "argument" in my earlier post.  I need nothing more to dispose of the position that trophy hunters are "sportsmen".  They are wasteful, wanton killers of animals to satisfy their own failures in the other aspects of their lives by hanging a animal head on their walls and bragging about their "death defying" killing of the beast.  You, on the other hand have no credible defense for your own "bravery".


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

People hunting animals for sport and pleasure are murderers..  Men that practice bestiality are rapists..  Period.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> People hunting animals for sport and pleasure are murderers..  Men that practice bestiality are rapists..  Period.



I don't want to detract from this "Cecil" post but I will say women also use animals for perverted pleasure.  I'll concede the majority are probable men but whether male or female they are all perverts and rapists.  Now, back to trophy hunters.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I don't want to detract from this "Cecil" post but I will say women also use animals for perverted pleasure.  I'll concede the majority are probable men but whether male or female they are all perverts and rapists.  Now, back to trophy hunters.



Yes... that happens too.. and they are perverts..  I don't and depending on your definition of "rape" are also rapists.. as an animal cannot consent to ****** contact with a human.


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I don't want to detract from this "Cecil" post but I will say women also use animals for perverted pleasure.  I'll concede the majority are probable men but whether male or female they are all perverts and rapists.  Now, back to trophy hunters.


Just another one of your straw man arguements Jim, either in your presentation or rebuttal. You show no correlation and ssume causality even if you did the plural of antidote is not data.
but let's talk about a society that Disneyfies ( gives anthropomorphic behavior) to animals puts them in zoos and when something goes wrong, stands with there hand on their hips and shakes their finger, because they are control freaks. Same folks have their air conditioning going all night, all year swimming pools, and cause irreparable ecological and habit damage so they can be comfortable. Same folks that live in suburban area of large metro,areas so they don't have to deal with the crime and loss of control in the inner cities. Same folk who been to Idaho, were I grew up, for tourist season, Did you know the largest number of auto claims are from deer road kills in Idaho, Utah and Wyoming, but that's ok it part of 
same folks that hide behind the Internet And call other people cowards. Do you know how much money goes to the public school system in Idaho from those nasty trophy hunters? Or ther public works in other states? So caught up in self righteousness you forgot the rest of the story. Who are the real cowards?
So the next time you watch the elephants at the zoo, since I doubt you will ever participate in their native world, don't be suprized when they turn around and point at you when they take a dump because that's what they think of you.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Just another one of your straw man arguements Jim, either in your presentation or rebuttal. You show no correlation and ssume causality even if you did the plural of antidote is not data.
> but let's talk about a society that Disneyfies ( gives anthropomorphic behavior) to animals puts them in zoos and when something goes wrong, stands with there hand on their hips and shakes their finger, because they are control freaks. Same folks have their air conditioning going all night, all year swimming pools, and cause irreparable ecological and habit damage so they can be comfortable. Same folks that live in suburban area of large metro,areas so they don't have to deal with the crime and loss of control in the inner cities. Same folk who been to Idaho, were I grew up, for tourist season, Did you know the largest number of auto claims are from deer road kills in Idaho, Utah and Wyoming, but that's ok it part of
> same folks that hide behind the Internet And call other people cowards. Do you know how much money goes to the public school system in Idaho from those nasty trophy hunters? Or ther public works in other states? So caught up in self righteousness you forgot the rest of the story. Who are the real cowards?
> So the next time you watch the elephants at the zoo, since I doubt you will ever participate in their native world, don't be suprized when they turn around and point at you when they take a dump because that's what they think of you.



So Rt...  do you want to tell us WHY you think it's OK for humans to hunt and kill animals for trophies and pleasure?


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## Kitties (Aug 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That ass didn't think about Cecil and his Pride with 24 cubs...when he slaughtered him.   It was a concern that other males would move in to take over the Pride of females and kill all of Cecil's cubs..   Fortunately I understand that Cecil's brother has stepped in and is protecting the cubs..
> 
> I have no concern for the Murderer's family..   They'll figure it out... who cares.


I absolutely agree with you. I know nothing of this individual's family situation. If he has a spouse, she knew what he was up to. The kids, if any, no it's not their fault. I'd hope he never has a client again but from some comments I've read and heard, there could be enough to that would still go to him. My hope is he'd have to get a job as the dentist in some prison someplace.


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Pleased to hear it but not pleased about this bit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



older big cats get very mean lost teeth, can't poop etc. Females make most of the kills and feed the big guys because they can't stand his nagging. If either the females or males become isolated they will pick the easiest kill.
it takes a lot of meat to feed each progressive animal that's higher on the food chain. 
the ratio of trophy lions to total male lion depends on the definition of trophy. There is no Boone and Crockett as such. The term trophy used here simply means highly regarded. 
The term illegal is also bandied about here having no real meaning. All it means is that I can't hop on a jet go there shoot, come home. Some official has has to be paid. If that offends anyone, then welcome to the real world.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

My fantasy is that he'd have to experience the fear exactly how cecil  did.... but on the Southeast side of Chicago...


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

Kitties said:


> I absolutely agree with you. I know nothing of this individual's family situation. If he has a spouse, she knew what he was up to. The kids, if any, no it's not their fault. I'd hope he never has a client again but from some comments I've read and heard, there could be enough to that would still go to him. My hope is he'd have to get a job as the dentist in some prison someplace.


im sure that the hunters etc. will take care of the guy etc. the only the crime here is in your head


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> My fantasy is that he'd have to experience the fear exactly how cecil  did.... but on the Southeast side of Chicago...


im sure the guy can take care of himself. You on the other hand hmmmmm.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> im sure that the hunters etc. will take care of the guy etc. the only the crime here is in your head



If not... WHY...  Is it NOT a moral crime?


----------



## AZ Jim (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Just another one of your straw man arguements Jim, either in your presentation or rebuttal. You show no correlation and ssume causality even if you did the plural of antidote is not data.
> but let's talk about a society that Disneyfies ( gives anthropomorphic behavior) to animals puts them in zoos and when something goes wrong, stands with there hand on their hips and shakes their finger, because they are control freaks. Same folks have their air conditioning going all night, all year swimming pools, and cause irreparable ecological and habit damage so they can be comfortable. Same folks that live in suburban area of large metro,areas so they don't have to deal with the crime and loss of control in the inner cities. Same folk who been to Idaho, were I grew up, for tourist season, Did you know the largest number of auto claims are from deer road kills in Idaho, Utah and Wyoming, but that's ok it part of
> same folks that hide behind the Internet And call other people cowards. Do you know how much money goes to the public school system in Idaho from those nasty trophy hunters? Or ther public works in other states? So caught up in self righteousness you forgot the rest of the story. Who are the real cowards?
> So the next time you watch the elephants at the zoo, since I doubt you will ever participate in their native world, don't be suprized when they turn around and point at you when they take a dump because that's what they think of you.





Ok...you've gone into a rant craze now.  Zoos, air conditions, swimming pools, ecological damage, crime, inner cities, auto claims, road accidents etal.  Who are the cowards?  They are the people with their high power rifles and scopes or compound bows and arrows who spotlight (in many cases) animals in the wild for the thrill or trophy.  Your anger at the world in general in no way supports your puny arguments in support of this barbaric and cowardly action.  What a way to try and prove your manhood or maybe make up for some inadequacy. Either make a good argument to support this asinine action of back off because all your red herrings don't fool anyone.


----------



## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> im sure the guy can take care of himself. You on the other hand hmmmmm.



Me?   What does that have to do with the conversation?


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

No, your definition of morals is just that -- yours. hunting in the USA is regulated. I don't like poachers either. Most of the poaching in Africa is done by what we would call gang bangers in the U.S. They use semi automatic military weapons with armour piercing type bullets and riddle the animal. As they are only after the ivory the body doesn't matter. Lions are seldom hunted by this group. What I would like to see is the local government put an ok on trophy hunters hunting them. Trophy hunters would come from all over the world
lion or big game culling is different, because USD will buy/feed/ so many in that part of the world. It is difficult to know how the trophy fee will be divided, but you can bet it gets passed around on a cat. Elephant will feed an entire village.
the current outrage is directed at the wrong group, getting facts is like reading 3 different Indian news papers.
when a big elk such as Jim describes is left, you must remember there is no waste in nature.,it feed 43 crows, seven coyotes, 115 magpies, 2 million flies etc. I can guarantee that the elk would prefer this than feeding some human.
a real waste is that the fish and game departments in most states will not let people pick up road kill deer and use it. It's good that predators eat a lot of it, but in most cases it is taken to a dump by a state highway official.


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Ok...you've gone into a rant craze now.  Zoos, air conditions, swimming pools, ecological damage, crime, inner cities, auto claims, road accidents etal.  Who are the cowards?  They are the people with their high power rifles and scopes or compound bows and arrows who spotlight (in many cases) animals in the wild for the thrill or trophy.  Your anger at the world in general in no way supports your puny arguments in support of this barbaric and cowardly action.  What a way to try and prove your manhood or maybe make up for some inadequacy. Either make a good argument to support this asinine action of back off because all your red herrings don't fool anyone.


jim you are not in control


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## rt3 (Aug 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Me?   What does that have to do with the conversation?


You introduced the topic by bringing up south Chicago . You assume the guy suffers from you insecurities.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

> a real waste is that the fish and game departments in most states will not let people pick up road kill deer and use it. It's good that predators eat a lot of it, but in most cases it is taken to a dump by a state highway official.



That is absolutely not true...  When we hit a deer last year, the police had a call list of hunters that would come and either track down the wounded animal for meat OR take the carcass and use it for meat..   When we went past the site where we killed the deer the next morning it was gone.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> No, your definition of morals is just that -- yours. hunting in the USA is regulated. I don't like poachers either. Most of the poaching in Africa is done by what we would call gang bangers in the U.S. They use semi automatic military weapons with armour piercing type bullets and riddle the animal. As they are only after the ivory the body doesn't matter. Lions are seldom hunted by this group. What I would like to see is the local government put an ok on trophy hunters hunting them. Trophy hunters would come from all over the world
> lion or big game culling is different, because USD will buy/feed/ so many in that part of the world. It is difficult to know how the trophy fee will be divided, but you can bet it gets passed around on a cat. Elephant will feed an entire village.
> the current outrage is directed at the wrong group, getting facts is like reading 3 different Indian news papers.
> when a big elk such as Jim describes is left, you must remember there is no waste in nature.,it feed 43 crows, seven coyotes, 115 magpies, 2 million flies etc. I can guarantee that the elk would prefer this than feeding some human.
> a real waste is that the fish and game departments in most states will not let people pick up road kill deer and use it. It's good that predators eat a lot of it, but in most cases it is taken to a dump by a state highway official.



In Idaho (I KNOW) a deer, less frequently elk or moose, id immediately collected by the sheriff or state trooper and a local butcher prepares it and it is distributed to the county residents who need food.  Now, that is not a waste and the animal didn't die to go on a wall in someones game room.  Most western states and South Dakota also salvage road killed game.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> You introduced the topic by bringing up south Chicago . You assume the guy suffers from you insecurities.



Not me.... I'm pretty street wise.  I know where not to go...   I would like to see him there...


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## AZ Jim (Aug 2, 2015)

Since I have no fear of dying, I am not afraid of a damn thing.


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## Kitties (Aug 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> im sure that the hunters etc. will take care of the guy etc. the only the crime here is in your head



What's in my head is the suffering and death of this magnificent animal for nothing.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 2, 2015)

Kitties said:


> What's in my head is the suffering and death of this magnificent animal for nothing.



For absolutely nothing except for the ego and satisfaction of the murderer.


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## Don M. (Aug 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> In Idaho (I KNOW) a deer, less frequently elk or moose, id immediately collected by the sheriff or state trooper and a local butcher prepares it and it is distributed to the county residents who need food.  Now, that is not a waste and the animal didn't die to go on a wall in someones game room.  Most western states and South Dakota also salvage road killed game.



A few months ago, as I was eating breakfast, I heard the neighbors beagle barking at something near the house.  I looked out the kitchen window and saw she was interested at something near the road.  After breakfast, I went out and found a young doe that had been hit by a car, was still alive, and managed to crawl up our slope.  I called the local police, and asked them what is the policy in such a thing, and they said I could take it.  So, I got one of my pistols, and put it out of its misery.  I got about 50 lbs. of good venison.  In Missouri, there are more deer killed by cars than hunters.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2015)

Don, as I see it the difference is that deer are not endangered animals. They are in fact herd animals, and in the absence of predators their numbers are likely to get out of hand. That is why the hunting of top order predators is very problematic. Also hunting animals in your own country or neighbourhood is likely to be more sustainable than travelling overseas and paying obscene amounts of money to take exotic animals in another country.

There is currently debate over here about whether trophy hunting of crocodiles should be allowed for economic reasons. Crocodiles were once on the way out but protections laws have seen their numbers rise and they can be a problem in the Top End in the more populated areas. The dangerous ones are shot by rangers in the interest of public safety. This poses no threat to overall numbers and tourism surrounding wild crocs is booming. I've been up there myself and seen them in their natural habitat. Awesome.

Australians generally don't want to see trophy hunting introduced. It just seems wrong somehow.


----------



## Don M. (Aug 2, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Don, as I see it the difference is that deer are not endangered animals. They are in fact herd animals, and in the absence of predators their numbers are likely to get out of hand. That is why the hunting of top order predators is very problematic. Also hunting animals in your own country or neighbourhood is likely to be more sustainable than travelling overseas and paying obscene amounts of money to take exotic animals in another country.
> 
> There is currently debate over here about whether trophy hunting of crocodiles should be allowed for economic reasons. Crocodiles were once on the way out but protections laws have seen their numbers rise and they can be a problem in the Top End in the more populated areas. The dangerous ones are shot by rangers in the interest of public safety. This poses no threat to overall numbers and tourism surrounding wild crocs is booming. I've been up there myself and seen them in their natural habitat. Awesome.
> 
> Australians generally don't want to see trophy hunting introduced. It just seems wrong somehow.



Yes, in the absence of any natural predators, the deer populations have soared.  Were it not for hunters and cars, large numbers of them would probably starve to death every Winter.  Around here, there aren't any predators left, other than a few coyotes, so the only limiting factor on the deer is "people".  We have had as many as 14 or 15 in our yard on a couple of occasions. 

I've seen some of these alligators/crocodiles on a couple of trips down to New Orleans...taking a boat excursion out into the swamps.  That's about as close to those things as I would want to get.  

I'm not much on "trophies".  I did keep a big 48 inch Muskellunge I caught while fishing a few years ago. It had swallowed the lure so deep that it was bleeding badly from its gills...so rather than just letting it rot, I had it mounted.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 3, 2015)

I cannot fathom why anyone would argue that it was OK for that dentist to shoot that lion..    I simply cannot see a "pro" side to the debate.


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## Jackie22 (Aug 3, 2015)

Good news......

[h=1]Cecil the lion: big game hunting banned in Zimbabwe as outrage grows over animal killing[/h]Source: *Mirror*

Big game hunting has been BANNED in Zimbabwe following the global disgust at the slaughter of Cecil the lion by a US dentist. 

Authorities in the south African country announced the move after it emerged a second American hunter is wanted for allegedly killing a different lion in April. 

According to the Daily Record, bow hunting has also been suspended. 

Zimbabwean officials want to extradite 55-year-old dentist Palmer from Minnesota. He is reported to have paid £32,000 to hunt and kill Cecil, one of the best known lions in Africa.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/cecil-lion-big-game-hunting-6185351


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## Misty (Aug 3, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Good news......
> 
> *Cecil the lion: big game hunting banned in Zimbabwe as outrage grows over animal killing*
> 
> ...



Very Good News! Thanks for posting the article, Jackie....Very Interesting!


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## Don M. (Aug 3, 2015)

I could Not believe the reports that this Ditz shot that lion with a Bow and Arrow.  That is Beyond Stupid!  In my years of hunting, I have come across several deer who have been shot with an arrow, then ran far enough away from the bow hunters such that they did not find the animal.  Unless an archer is skilled enough to make a clean heart or lung shot, the animal can run and live for hours...even days...before they succumb to loss of blood, etc.  To think that anyone could make a quick and clean kill on a lion with an arrow is wishful thinking.  That alone, would convince me that this guy deserves little sympathy no matter what the future holds for him.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 3, 2015)

Don M. said:


> I could Not believe the reports that this Ditz shot that lion with a Bow and Arrow.  That is Beyond Stupid!  In my years of hunting, I have come across several deer who have been shot with an arrow, then ran far enough away from the bow hunters such that they did not find the animal.  Unless an archer is skilled enough to make a clean heart or lung shot, the animal can run and live for hours...even days...before they succumb to loss of blood, etc.  To think that anyone could make a quick and clean kill on a lion with an arrow is wishful thinking.  That alone, would convince me that this guy deserves little sympathy no matter what the future holds for him.


  I absolutely agree but the good of this is they have stopped big game hunting including Bow/arrow hunting.  Hopefully that will last and make it easier to focus on poachers.


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## Kitties (Aug 3, 2015)

It makes me ill to use the word "good" but perhaps something positive will happen from this. 

CNN just had some jerk on who paid 350 grand to shoot an endangered Black Rhino. I wish someone could explain the justification. He was defending that hunting helps animal preservation. I'm getting sicker and sicker.

I'm going to make a couple of donations that help big cats. I'm doing some research on the internet. I don't know what else to do.


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## Butterfly (Aug 3, 2015)

Kitties said:


> It makes me ill to use the word "good" but perhaps something positive will happen from this.
> 
> CNN just had some jerk on who paid 350 grand to shoot an endangered Black Rhino. I wish someone could explain the justification. He was defending that hunting helps animal preservation. I'm getting sicker and sicker.
> 
> I'm going to make a couple of donations that help big cats. I'm doing some research on the internet. I don't know what else to do.




How can that idiot say that killing an ENDANGERED rhino helps animal preservation??  What absolute, unmitigated crap!!

And to pay $350,000 to kill an animal for fun?  Surely the sadistic SOB can find something better to do with his money!  Absolutely disgusting.


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## chic (Aug 4, 2015)

Don M. said:


> I could Not believe the reports that this Ditz shot that lion with a Bow and Arrow. That is Beyond Stupid! In my years of hunting, I have come across several deer who have been shot with an arrow, then ran far enough away from the bow hunters such that they did not find the animal. Unless an archer is skilled enough to make a clean heart or lung shot, the animal can run and live for hours...even days...before they succumb to loss of blood, etc. To think that anyone could make a quick and clean kill on a lion with an arrow is wishful thinking. That alone, would convince me that this guy deserves little sympathy no matter what the future holds for him.



You must have come from a family of "hunters" like I did? What you say is so true. Taking out an animal with a bow and arrow is beyond cruel. They usually do survive, are not caught and suffer unspeakably. 

I'm not going to judge Dr. Palmer because enough people are already doing that. It's good to know that Zimbabwe has now outlawed big game hunting. One good thng has come out of this tragedy.


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## applecruncher (Aug 14, 2015)

ABC _20/20 _tonight will be about this incident. (10 pm Eastern Time)


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## Linda (Aug 14, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Roy Rogers?



Yes Jim,  Roy Rogers went all over the world trophy hunting.  He had all sorts of the trophies in his museum at Victorville, CA.  I think they closed that down a few years ago.  They were selling the items off but I heard they didn't sell too well.  I'm not sure what finally happened to all that stuff.  I should google and see where Trigger finally wound up.


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## rt3 (Aug 14, 2015)

Road kill is not very often processed and distributed in any of the western states, contrary to the reports here. If police get involved it has something more to do with a traffic hazard. It may get more attention in the Midwest, because of heavier traffic congestion.
the higher on the food chain the more endangered the animal, except humans.
If you don't think a good compound bow can take out any animal you haven't hunted much. Wounded game animals can be found during any hunting season with guns.
the arrows used in hunting are more lethal and have more knock down than a lot of rifle bullets. They are ,made of graphite or metal and have razor sharp blades usually 3 inches long and about 2 in. Wide. On entry they cut the veins and arteries cause death by blood loss. The 600 gr arrow can shoot completely thru a cat. The animal usually drops in its tracks.  Big cats are thinned skin, but the problem is they can cover the 100 yards between you and them in seconds. 
Zimbabwe has reopened game and lion hunting except on the "farms" (Antoinette I think). Which is were Ces and the Disneyland crowd go.

in the U.S. Big cats are hunted with dogs, the cat is cornered and shot with a lowly 22lr. Which causes the animal to bleed out. If shot with a "big gun" it ruins the pelt, and the usually fall out of the tree and take a couple of dogs with them.

two very large collections, Rogers and the Skaggs collection were purchased for large sums of money by private hunters. The funds were distributed to the purchase of private lands that have been set aside for all to enjoy and are not for sale. Some were bought by Ted Turner on his private ranch in Montana.


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## rt3 (Aug 14, 2015)

Kitties said:


> It makes me ill to use the word "good" but perhaps something positive will happen from this.
> 
> CNN just had some jerk on who paid 350 grand to shoot an endangered Black Rhino. I wish someone could explain the justification. He was defending that hunting helps animal preservation. I'm getting sicker and sicker.
> 
> I'm going to make a couple of donations that help big cats. I'm doing some research on the internet. I don't know what else to do.



your donations would be put to better use to a local animal shelter. The money bid for the Rhino fed a large portion of a country whose only natural resource is their animals. Your money will be wasted by an anti hunting group,that will pay for TV time against a country they have no say.


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## Kitties (Aug 14, 2015)

rt3 said:


> your donations would be put to better use to a local animal shelter. The money bid for the Rhino fed a large portion of a country whose only natural resource is their animals. Your money will be wasted by an anti hunting group,that will pay for TV time against a country they have no say.



You don't know anything about how or who I donate to. I am worried about donating for the animals in Africa because I do worry about where the money will go. I have so far donated to one big cat sanctuary here in the U.S.. I did some research on them and they are not open to the public. I liked that because I don't believe these animals exist for us to go and stare at them.

I also donate to a local small all volunteer cat shelter. I used to donate for farm animals but that movement doesn't seem to accept me.

It's my money and I'll donate as I want.


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## rt3 (Aug 14, 2015)

Great, stick to your guns. There are quite a few big shelters in the U.S. That take in abandoned Cougars. Kansas and Washington I think. The private ones are the best, no Disney for them.


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## applecruncher (Aug 14, 2015)

I believe actress Tippi Hedren (Hitchcock's "The Birds", also Melanie Griffith's mother) own's and runs a big cat sanctuary.  I've seen her on TV in interviews talking about it.


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## chic (Aug 16, 2015)

Adopt a Tiger - several sites available - offers opportunities for "adopting" and helping large cats through contributions.


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## Ruthanne (Aug 17, 2015)

I think it was plain wrong!!  Find a better hobby and let the animals alone!


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