# Brexit??



## Don M. (Jun 8, 2016)

I've been reading some articles about an upcoming referendum on June 23rd, where the people of the U.K. will be voting on whether or not to stay in the EU.  Do any of our U.K posters have any information or opinions on this subject?


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## Guitarist (Jun 8, 2016)

I think there's a thread about this somewhere on this board.  The debate has been going on for quite some time.


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## Don M. (Jun 8, 2016)

AH, Yes...I searched on this topic and found 2 or 3 threads from earlier in the year....I guess I didn't pay attention before.  However, now that this vote is only a couple of weeks away, I am curious to hear what some of this forums members, who live in the U.K. are thinking, and what their local polls might be saying.


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## Goldfynche (Jun 8, 2016)

I voted no, way back when we were asked "should we join" and l shall be voting to leave, in a few days time. We don't need it and there are only a greedy minority that really benefit from it.


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## Don M. (Jun 8, 2016)

Goldfynche said:


> I voted no, way back when we were asked "should we join" and l shall be voting to leave, in a few days time. We don't need it and there are only a greedy minority that really benefit from it.



Thanks for your response.  I am curious about this issue, because of the potential for this vote to upset the global financial markets.  I'm sure the people of the U.K. have valid reasons, both Pro and Con, about this issue, and although it would have little bearing on the US populace, Anything that upsets the Status Quo seems to have "ripple effects".  I will be watching BBC news, etc., on TV closely in coming days.


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## Guitarist (Jun 8, 2016)

Don M. said:


> Thanks for your response.  I am curious about this issue, because of the potential for this vote to upset the global financial markets.  I'm sure the people of the U.K. have valid reasons, both Pro and Con, about this issue, and although it would have little bearing on the US populace, Anything that upsets the Status Quo seems to have "ripple effects".  I will be watching BBC news, etc., on TV closely in coming days.



It could have quite some bearing on the US populace if the US carries out what some UK member of this BB posted about what might have been considered a "threat" from Obama if Britain pulls out.  That's the thread I was thinking of.  

If I believed in conspiracy theories I could wonder about this referendum taking place at the same time as   the run-up to a US presidential election, but I don't. Could be a sea change, though. A paradigm shift.


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## Don M. (Jun 8, 2016)

Guitarist said:


> It could have quite some bearing on the US populace if the US carries out what some UK member of this BB posted about what might have been considered a "threat" from Obama if Britain pulls out.  That's the thread I was thinking of.
> 
> If I believed in conspiracy theories I could wonder about this referendum taking place at the same time as   the run-up to a US presidential election, but I don't. Could be a sea change, though. A paradigm shift.



Yeah, between the marvelous "Choices" we have in this upcoming Presidential election, and if the EU were to go into any major disarray, I can visualize all sorts of problems cropping up....especially to global financial markets.  It's not that long ago that the mess in Greece turned the markets upside down for several weeks....and Greece is just a minor footnote compared to the U.K.


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## ossian (Jun 9, 2016)

I voted to remain in. 

The EU provides much in the way of human rights and employment protection that the UK would love to ignore. Furthermore, to increase barriers with Europe makes no sense in a world that is becoming smaller by the day. There is no hiding the fact, that the whole exit issue was kicked off by those on the right of the political spectrum for purely selfish reasons. Mostly because they find that poorer countries are now joining the EU and don't see why we should be part of a union that may expect us to support them. 

Yes, there are some things that could be handled better by Europe, but over all, it makes more sense to be a part of that Union than to break from it. As for immigration. Scotland is a mix of many peoples. Possibly the largest group coming from England who have invested well, mostly in the Highlands. We have a valuable Polish community established here now. And, of course, the invaluable Indian/Pakistani immigration of the 50s that has now become such a colourful part of our culture. My own ancestry, indeed, reaches back to Ireland. So, 'immigration is' not all bad!

What some outside the UK may not know, is that should the UK vote to leave the EU, then this could spark a further Scottish Independence referendum as the preference here is more pro-Europe than elsewhere in the UK. Now that may be interesting.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 9, 2016)

I'll be voting to LEAVE. We've had to fight to preserve our freedom in many wars, and now some people just want to roll over and allow ourselves to be a part of a united Europe.  Being on good terms with our old enemies and having trading agreements is one thing, but being slaves is another.


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## Warrigal (Jun 9, 2016)

Why are Americans upset about the UK contemplating withdrawal from the EU? 
I keep hearing lots of complaints on this forum about trade agreements in general and how the US should get out of them. 

As a member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, I felt alienation when Britain joined the Common Market, to which we were excluded, but over the years I got used to it. If they leave now, things will not go back to what they were before, because we Australians have moved on.

In my mind as a colonial with British roots I have never really considered the British Isles to be part of Europe, but then again, I have never lived the life of a Briton. In the end, the decision is up to the British, and to them alone.


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## Butterfly (Jun 9, 2016)

I don't think Americans are upset, just interested, as others are interested in and comment on our politics, too.


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## Bee (Jun 9, 2016)

ossian said:


> I voted to remain in.
> 
> The EU provides much in the way of human rights and employment protection that the UK would love to ignore. Furthermore, to increase barriers with Europe makes no sense in a world that is becoming smaller by the day. There is no hiding the fact, that the whole exit issue was kicked off by those on the right of the political spectrum for purely selfish reasons. Mostly because they find that poorer countries are now joining the EU and don't see why we should be part of a union that may expect us to support them.
> 
> ...



I am with you Ossian..........I had never thought of it before but I suppose I could call my father an immigrant to England as he originated from Edinburgh.

Apart from human rights and employment protection I worry that if we come out, those on the leave campaign will mess with the NHS and we may possibly lose it...............there are so many things to consider for staying in and coming out but overall I believe we will be better off staying in the E.U.


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## ossian (Jun 9, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> I'll be voting to LEAVE. We've had to fight to preserve our freedom in many wars, and now some people just want to roll over and allow ourselves to be a part of a united Europe.  Being on good terms with our old enemies and having trading agreements is one thing, but being slaves is another.


Good grief!

I think that is a nonsense, Capt. We are certainly not slaves to Europe any more than we are slaves to the US or any other allies. The wars are in the past and the EU, if anything, has ensured peace in Europe between nations.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 9, 2016)

Ossian, if you want our laws, our imigration policies, our weights and measures, our fishing industry etc.... all dictated to by Brussels, then fine, vote to stay in.  If you want Britain to maintain what it's got left of its sovereignty and decide how we should be governed , then let's get OUT while we can.  As for various laws that the scaremongers feel would be repealed,  people have the right to vote for the party who will put in place the best laws for Britain.

Regarding and independent Scotland (which I voted against) applying to join the EU,  I think I'd  keep the options to return to England open.

BTW, where's Ameriscot these days?  She's a pro EU and independent Scotland voter.


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## Meringue (Jun 9, 2016)

I've already sent in my postal vote, to LEAVE.   Enough said


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## ossian (Jun 9, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Ossian, if you want our laws, our imigration policies, our weights and measures, our fishing industry etc.... all dictated to by Brussels, then fine, vote to stay in.  If you want Britain to maintain what it's got left of its sovereignty and decide how we should be governed , then let's get OUT while we can.  As for various laws that the scaremongers feel would be repealed,  people have the right to vote for the party who will put in place the best laws for Britain.
> 
> Regarding and independent Scotland (which I voted against) applying to join the EU,  I think I'd  keep the options to return to England open.
> 
> BTW, where's Ameriscot these days?  She's a pro EU and independent Scotland voter.


I welcome the EU influencing many of our laws. Without their controls, the Westminster Government cannot be trusted to protect employment legislation, employee rights and social welfare. One of the main drivers to exit the EU is to enable the UK to compete better with Asia. Not Europe! And how do you think they will do that?

As for Scottish Independence. Ameriscot has always impressed me as a very perceptive and wise individual. What you have told me simply confirms this. And should we ever achieve that independence, there would be absolutely no barrier to you exercising your right to return to England. However, then as a non-EU member, you may not find it so easy to return here again, remember. 

And here endeth my subscription to this topic.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 9, 2016)

Ossian, we elect our government.   If we don't trust them, we can vote  for another party.  The 'Stay' supporters seem very keen to suggest that the UK government would repeal many of the employment laws, but I doubt if that would sit well with the electorate.  We shall see what happens.  Depending on the result, I will do what I think is best.  I've lived and worked in several countries but I'm getting a bit crumbly to keep moving around.   Maybe there should be a country comparison site- we could call it "uFlit".  

A final thought..  if an independent Scotland joined the EU, would we have wine and beer at continental prices? That might swing it.


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## senile1 (Jun 9, 2016)

My other 2 groups are predominantly European, so I've witnessed these discussions(pro & con) time and again. I know everyone remembers the panic when the year 2000 dawned, everyone believed computers were going to shut down.... bla ...bla .... The Uk has never relinquished it's monetary system, so they were never 100% in the EU. There will be no monetary conversion, they have one of the strongest and fastest growing economies , as well militaries, in Europe. Their proximity to their West European  neighbors make them vital to  trade, business , as well, the security of Western Europe.  I have always felt The UK gave more to the EU than they received in return. As far as the USA is concerned, my belief, Obama was merely bowing to EU pressure to attempt to sway the UK into staying. The UK is the USA's closet and strongest ally, to think the UK's leaving or staying in the EU will effect in anyway US and the UK's relationship is completely preposterous, no matter what an American President says; the US Congress would never allow it.


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## Don M. (Jun 9, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> Why are Americans upset about the UK contemplating withdrawal from the EU?
> 
> I don't think many Americans are "Upset" about the UK and its relationship with the EU...certainly nowhere near as "upset" as some in other countries seem to be about US Gun laws.  Speaking personally, I watch International news and events because of the potential impact global events can have on my investments and retirement funding.  With the globalization of most of our corporations and industries, what happens halfway around the world can have an impact on my bottom line...and I don't want to take a hit on my IRA, etc., because of events I have no control over.  Therefore, it is only Prudent to seek out ideas and opinions from those who might be directly involved, so I can be prepared for any eventuality.  In that regard, I thank the UK posters who have responded to my concerns, and I'm sure that the people of the UK will make the correct decisions.


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## Laurie (Jun 9, 2016)

I have moved 180 degrees.  I was one a full federalist, hoping to see Team Euro marching at the Olympics, but now I'n for out.

It's simply become too big, trying to be all things to all nations but being nothing to most.

I have no illusions.  If we leave we will have a ten or  fifteen year economic freeze, bur we will ultimately end up stronger, though not in my lifetime.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 9, 2016)

Laurie said:


> .........
> 
> It's simply become too big, trying to be all things to all nations but being nothing to most.
> ......



And that sums it up best. They say one size does not fit all. I think that applies to the EU. 

Doesn't stop individual treaties, agreements or unofficially honoring certain practices. The sky will not fall.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 21, 2016)

Brexit vote this week. Thursday

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buckle-volatility-seen-lasting-thursdays-185540922.html

Will the sky fall?


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## senile1 (Jun 21, 2016)

ossian said:


> Good grief!
> 
> I think that is a nonsense, Capt. We are certainly not slaves to Europe any more than we are slaves to the US or any other allies. The wars are in the past and the EU, if anything, has ensured peace in Europe between nations.




My thoughts, as stated in an earlier comment, is the UK offers more to the EU than it receives in return. I do believe no matter the path it chooses; the UK will be ok.


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## senile1 (Jun 21, 2016)

Don M. said:


> Warrigal said:
> 
> 
> > Why are Americans upset about the UK contemplating withdrawal from the EU?
> ...


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## Bobw235 (Jun 21, 2016)

Someone had asked about financial market impacts resulting from the vote and I found this from earlier this afternoon.  

Here's a brief intro for anyone interested:

"So will there be market mayhem?


In the immediate term, an intense burst of volatility in financial markets on Thursday night and Friday morning is more or less assured, regardless of the outcome of the referendum vote. The outcome of the plebiscite is the dominant issue in the minds of traders and asset managers in the City of London and, increasingly, in other financial centres around the world. Various indexes of expected market volatility have been rising in recent weeks.


Who will be trading?


Some financial players, such as hedge funds, will be speculating on the outcome (or more precisely market movements in response to the outcome) with their own money. Other players, traders working for banks, will be anticipating a rush of orders from corporate customers for various assets in response to the outcome and they will be looking to position themselves to make a profit by making a market for these clients. There is expected to a be a frenzy of action in the spread-betting markets too on the value of currencies, as there usually is for high-profile political events with economic implications (such as general elections)."


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## Laurie (Jun 21, 2016)

People have forgotten there was life before we joined in 1975, and there will be life after we leave (if we do),


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## Meringue (Jun 21, 2016)

Well, I sincerely hope we do leave, however with all the scaremongering, I very much doubt it.


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## Don M. (Jun 21, 2016)

Bobw235 said:


> Someone had asked about financial market impacts resulting from the vote and I found this from earlier this afternoon.
> 
> Here's a brief intro for anyone interested:
> 
> "So will there be market mayhem?."



It appears that global markets have settled down.  A few days ago, there was quite a bit of speculation about the U.K. leaving the EU, and it had some segments of the markets upset.  However, in recent days, the volatility has decreased and the markets seem to be betting that the U.K. will stay put....for now.


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## Goldfynche (Jun 21, 2016)

_o u t_


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 22, 2016)

Tomorrow may be our last chance to save what remains of the UK..

LEAVE while we have that chance.


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## Laurie (Jun 22, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Tomorrow may be our last chance to save what remains of the UK..
> 
> LEAVE while we have that chance.



You're wasting your breath.  If we leave Nicola will take us back in!


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes Laurie, that point has not escaped me.  I voted for Scotland to stay part of the UK, but I am also voting to leave the EU.
If we did leave the EU, the 'Red Queen' as I refer to her, will doubtless want to put us through yet another referendum for independence.  I do believe at times her obsession with independence is more to spite Westminster and especially the Tories, than it is for the benefit of Scotland.


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## Laurie (Jun 22, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Yes Laurie, that point has not escaped me.  I voted for Scotland to stay part of the UK, but I am also voting to leave the EU.
> If we did leave the EU, the 'Red Queen' as I refer to her, will doubtless want to put us through yet another referendum for independence.  I do believe at times her obsession with independence is more to spite Westminster and especially the Tories, than it is for the benefit of Scotland.



To be air, her obsession has been with her since she was about eight years old and had been her life's work.

I voted to leave both the British and European Unions but when (not if!) independence comes, I will vote to join the EU.  Scotland wikk need protection from her bullying neighbour.  

As I've said before, I first came to Scotland in 1957, but I'm still and incomer and when independence comes I will have to apply for a residency permit, but I will have to wait and see how the administration shakes out.

I couldn't live under an SNP administration, but I'm hoping that once the reason for their very existence disappears they will lose support, otherwise I will have to back to a country I left more than half a century ago, and which I have not even visited for twenty years!  As I will be eighty by then it's a big step.

Apologies to our US friends, but this  is reality for us, not pundits sounding off!


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 22, 2016)

Laurie, as a resident of Scotland, you are entitled to vote for independence, so they can hardly deny you the right to stay if it comes round!
I do agree that the SNP's reason for being would largely disappear with independence.  However I would question why you would prefer to be 'bullied' by Brussels rather than London.  As a part of the UK, Scottish MPs can have influence in Westminster.  As part of the EU, Scotland will just be another  little country having to do what it's told.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 22, 2016)

Here's some more info on Brexit. Full story HERE. 




> *Brexit Anyone? Why the US Should Care About Thursday’s Vote in the UK*


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## Don M. (Jun 22, 2016)

The World will be watching what happens in this vote tomorrow....the stakes are high for Everyone in the Western World.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 22, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> Here's some more info on Brexit. Full story HERE.



The picture says it all.


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## Bee (Jun 22, 2016)

Why does the picture says it all WhatinThe???

I have read and seen videos of WW2 veterans voting to stay _*in*_ the E.U.

In my opinion we have been fed a lot of crap by both sides of the campaign and they have a lot of the public confused as to the best way to vote.


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## Shalimar (Jun 23, 2016)

I think it is difficult for many outside the UK to understand the issues facing the Brits over the EU vote.


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## Bee (Jun 23, 2016)

It is difficult for many _*inside*_ the U.K. to understand the ramifications of whether we stay or leave let alone those outside of the U.K.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 23, 2016)

Bee said:


> Why does the picture says it all WhatinThe???
> 
> I have read and seen videos of WW2 veterans voting to stay _*in*_ the E.U.
> 
> In my opinion we have been fed a lot of crap by sides of the campaign and they have a lot of the public confused as to the best way to vote.


 
Citizens in a lot of countries feel they have lost control of their country to professional politicians, radical legislation, over whelming numbers of immigrants, greed, foreign influences,  etc.


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## Bee (Jun 23, 2016)

That depends on who you believe, the only person that influence me......... is me.


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## Laurie (Jun 23, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Laurie, as a resident of Scotland, you are entitled to vote for independence, so they can hardly deny you the right to stay if it comes round!
> I do agree that the SNP's reason for being would largely disappear with independence.  However I would question why you would prefer to be 'bullied' by Brussels rather than London.  As a part of the UK, Scottish MPs can have influence in Westminster.  As part of the EU, Scotland will just be another  little country having to do what it's told.



Having experienced Scottish hospitality for  nigh on sixty years I have no qualms about being any less welcome after independence!

The reason I would prefer to be ruled from (not by!) Brussels is that it is a conglomeration of nations with equal rights.  The British Union is entirely ruled by the English vote, simply because there are more of them than all the others pit together.  That is not a moan.  That is democracy, we all have a vote.

Scottish MPs have no influence at Westminster, except insofar as allowed by the English  elected  government.  Every Scottish MP except one is SNP, but they are all totally ignored by Cameron.

Sorry, I'd sooner be dominated by France and Germany than England.  After all, France is the Auld Alliance, we all know who the Auld Enemy is, and  Blucher and his Prussians fought alongside the Highland Div at Waterloo to save the day for the English!


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## Goldfynche (Jun 23, 2016)

Just got back from voting. We'll just have to see now.


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## Meringue (Jun 23, 2016)

Ah well fingers crossed that the LEAVE contingent win, but being the pessimist that I am, I doubt it sadly.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 23, 2016)

Sad to say, but you might be right.  As I understand things,  when both sides are neck and neck,  the undecided voters tend to go with the _status quo_.  The only benefit of that, and it could be a significant one, is that it might put back the SNP case for another independence referendum.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 23, 2016)

Ballots to be marked in pencil? Thought I saw reports telling voters to bring a pen.


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## Don M. (Jun 23, 2016)

Just checked...the global stock markets are mostly hovering in the "green".  It appears that the sentiment is more towards the UK staying put.


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## Debby (Jun 23, 2016)

12:06 Atlantic time and the leaves are ahead 51.6% and Nigel Farage is sounding pretty pumped.


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## Don M. (Jun 23, 2016)

Debby said:


> 12:06 Atlantic time and the leaves are ahead 51.6% and Nigel Farage is sounding pretty pumped.



Yup, the global stock market futures are headed for the ditch...investors are bailing out in Asia, and the US market futures are dropping rapidly.  The EU markets will most likely be down 2 to 5 % at their open.


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## NancyNGA (Jun 23, 2016)

Been watching coverage on CNN, since just after the election was called (for exit).  First, I confess to complete ignorance, so please don't clobber me, but this sounds like a disaster!  They've been discussing the ramifications... oh my!


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## Warrigal (Jun 23, 2016)

It seems it's all over bar the shouting now.

Britain will leave the EU and Scotland may demand independence again because they want to remain.
There may also be renewed calls for a unified Ireland.

It will be some time before all the dust thrown up by this decision of the people will finally settle.


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## ossian (Jun 24, 2016)

I have just wakened and heard the result. I am worried and troubled by this. 

Worried because already the pound has fallen sharply and it seems inevitable that we will lose our AAA credit rating. It seems that our economy is in for a very, very rocky time and, of course, that will put intense pressure on our public services.

Troubled because it makes us appear insular in the eyes of the world and I feel that this decision has been made by voters who are more concerned in narrow minded, almost racist reasons. 

I do not yet draw a state pension but worry like hell about the affect this decision will have on that in the future. I also worry for my family, all of whom work in public services. And, in general, I worry about the working conditions and pay of most will suffer.

This is a dreadful day for the UK.

As for a further Scottish Independence referendum. I feel that it is too soon for that. Far too soon and do not think that the people would welcome that. Personally, the sooner it happens, the better. Scotland voted 63% to remain. That shows clearly what we think about Europe. I am a Scot, I am European and no vote will change that!


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## Bee (Jun 24, 2016)

ossian said:


> I have just wakened and heard the result. I am worried and troubled by this.
> 
> Worried because already the pound has fallen sharply and it seems inevitable that we will lose our AAA credit rating. It seems that our economy is in for a very, very rocky time and, of course, that will put intense pressure on our public services.
> 
> ...



I couldn't have put it better myself ossian.........I do receive the state pension and wondering what this will now mean in terms of the pound tumbling to a 35 year low, does this mean the cost of living will go up??.........a sad sad day for the U.K. in every way.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 24, 2016)

YES!!!!!  Independence day has arrived. We have voted off the shackles of Brussels and hopefully we can start to put the 'Great' back into Great Britain.  Yes, it's going to be hard, yes there will be uncertainty, but hopefully there will be a better future at the end.   I note that already there are calls from other European countries for their own exit referendum.  Maybe we are seeing the demise of the monster that is the EU.

Doubtless there will be a second Scottish independence referendum, but I think people are tired of uncertainty and debate and will need a while to settle down before that happens.


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2016)

Cameron has resigned. 
No-one has any idea what the new relationship between Britain and the EU should look like.


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## Meringue (Jun 24, 2016)

YES, my worries were unfounded, what a result !!  LEAVE.  This has given the political elite a "kick in the teeth".  Now onwards and upwards !


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## Laurie (Jun 24, 2016)

Forget the doom and gloom.  It's over, a  new beginning.

Don't look back.  Dark days ahead but sunnier ones to follow.

I've got my head up looking out for them.


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## oldman (Jun 24, 2016)

It looks like the "leave" camp is going to win this win. However, if the less than 2% difference stands up, I would expect to see this issue revisited somewhere down the road, maybe even 6 months from now. The U.S. stock markets will surely take a hit today because Wall Street was predicting that the voters would vote to stay with the EU. I am also reading that Britain's PM will be resigning. Geo-political unrest is never good news for the markets. It will be a  slow recovery this time and may even effect the election here in the U.S. because Wall Street does not like being disappointed and when they are, they look for someone to blame, no matter if they had a hand in it or not. Wall Street predicted that the voters would vote to stay and now they are embarrassed that they were wrong, so someone will have to pay. Wall Streeters do not accept personal responsibility. 

Can you imagine all of the financial planners and advisors that will get phone calls today. Most of them were in a buying frenzy the past few days, expecting the EU to stay put. So many of their clients went along with their financial planners and advisors recommendations to stay in the market and even buy and now this.


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## Debby (Jun 24, 2016)

Well personally, right now, we are smiling over the Brexit.  It did amazing things for our gold investments.  Mind you, I was slightly disappointed because I actually had a dream that the price of gold had gone up to $1500 so waking up to a $69 price jump was not as exciting as my dreamlayful: but it did do wonderful things for our main holding  (which had just increased its distribution 100%) so I won't 'look a gift horse in the mouth' that's for sure.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2016)

My main concern?   what is it going to do to MY retirement funds??


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## oldman (Jun 24, 2016)

Yeah, I love panic selling. One philosophy I have always agreed with is never to buy stocks when the price is on the way down. However, when it's due to panic selling, I over-ride that thinking and look at this as a buying opportunity. Just like in 2009 and 2010, I did very well then and I will do very well this time. 

By the way, my Newmont Mining (NEM) is doing very well this a.m. Could sell this stock today. 

I just hope that the Europeans thought this through very carefully.


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## NancyNGA (Jun 24, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> It will be some time before all the dust thrown up by this decision of the people will finally settle.



Do you think all the hand-wringing last night might have been over-reaction?


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2016)

Some people will be discomfited but the world will not end because of this decision.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2016)

oldman said:


> Yeah, I love panic selling. One philosophy I have always agreed with is never to buy stocks when the price is on the way down. However, when it's due to panic selling, I over-ride that thinking and look at this as a buying opportunity. Just like in 2009 and 2010, I did very well then and I will do very well this time.
> 
> By the way, my Newmont Mining (NEM) is doing very well this a.m. Could sell this stock today.
> 
> I just hope that the Europeans thought this through very carefully.



Market is up 230 points from yesterday...  waiting for today


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## senile1 (Jun 24, 2016)

Initial reactions aside, the people have spoken, the Uk has opened it's doors to a new tomorrow. A tomorrow where the people , via their votes, will govern the United Kingdom free of outside interference. Last week  the UK was a major player in  Europe, today the UK is a major player in  Europe, tomorrow the UK will be a major player in  Europe. The fact Prime Minister David Cameron chose to step down , in the stead of leading a "free" UK into the future, a future determined by the will of the people, proves him a most incapable leader, thus the UK will be stronger and more confident without him. A winner never quits, but then; such is politics.


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## Sunny (Jun 24, 2016)

Warrigal, while this is definitely not the business of us Americans, it could very much affect the "business" of Americans. I heard an analyst yesterday say that the global economy
could be knocked for a loop, which affects everybody.


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## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

Well...thanks a lot to you LEAVE voters.   The value of the pound is at a 30 year low and could go as low as $1.20.  A stock fund I set up for my granddaughters in the US have taken a nosedive.  Recession is imminent.  Wonder if this means all the Brits who retired to Spain and France will get kicked out?  They won't get free healthcare there any more, they will have to buy insurance.  If they are allowed to stay.

On a good note...Cameron is quitting.  Ireland will likely have a vote to reunite with NI.  There will be another referendum on independence for Scotland - I'm betting next year.  The vote will most likely be YES this time.  

Capt, have you started looking for a house to move to in England yet?

My husband and two of my friends are applying for their Irish passports so they'll still be EU citizens.

Could be Black Friday on Wall Street.  http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/24/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2016)

market plummeted bun now is inching up again.  was down 500.. but back up to 372


----------



## Don M. (Jun 24, 2016)

As expected, the global financial markets are, and will be, in a period of turmoil, over this referendum.  However, this appears to just be the first step for the UK to establish its independence...parliament must still act, and any final moves could take months, perhaps a couple of years.  I wish the people of the UK well, no matter what the final decision is...and in the interim, investors should be Closely monitoring their holdings.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 24, 2016)

And *this *is why I have someone managing my retirement funds.  He bought gold shares in an ETF the other day as a hedge against this, and has limited our exposure to stocks.  Has been waiting for an opportunity to buy stocks at lower prices and has us more in bond funds with limited international exposure.  I'm sure we'll take a hit today, but it hopefully won't be as bad as it could have been.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2016)

Personally, I know nothing about managing my funds.. that's also why I pay someone else to and he believes in spreading out the risk.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 24, 2016)

Ameriscot, I wondered where you had got to....  It's such a shame that Scotland want's to throw away the chance to determine its own destiny and throw its lot in with Brussels.  At times it  seems more like spite than anything else.

A house in England?  Well I always keep an eye on the housing market, but as a former colleague put it,  "I'm more loyal to the half-crown than the crown".  In other words, irrespective of how things go,  I will do whatever is best for myself and my family.

I'm glad to see Cameron go too.  He was a weak leader who failed to secure a good deal for the UK.  If he had, the result might have been different.  Hope Osborne goes too.

Still, the markets seem to be recovering somewhat after the knee-jerk reactions.  Hopefully things will settle down soon.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2016)

Sunny said:


> Warrigal, while this is definitely not the business of us Americans, it could very much affect the "business" of Americans. I heard an analyst yesterday say that the global economy
> could be knocked for a loop, which affects everybody.


Well it's all swings and roundabouts. The last catastrophic global recession was started in the US.

Remember that the Chinese symbol for crisis can also mean opportunity. Australians have been lining up today to buy UK currency cheaply. They plan to use them when they visit Britain.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Ameriscot, I wondered where you had got to....  It's such a shame that Scotland want's to throw away the chance to determine its own destiny and throw its lot in with Brussels.  At times it  seems more like spite than anything else.
> 
> A house in England?  Well I always keep an eye on the housing market, but as a former colleague put it,  "I'm more loyal to the half-crown than the crown".  In other words, irrespective of how things go,  I will do whatever is best for myself and my family.
> 
> ...



I was taking a break.  Had sister visiting Scotland and now we are visiting Michigan.

You did say if Scotland leaves the UK you'd move back to England.

62% of Scotland voted to Remain.  Most of us would rather have Brussels than London.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

Don M. said:


> As expected, the global financial markets are, and will be, in a period of turmoil, over this referendum.  However, this appears to just be the first step for the UK to establish its independence...parliament must still act, and any final moves could take months, perhaps a couple of years.  I wish the people of the UK well, no matter what the final decision is...and in the interim, investors should be Closely monitoring their holdings.



News is saying 2 years to actually split, but EU leaders are saying for us to get out as soon as possible.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 24, 2016)

It's interesting to read the reactions by readers of Roger Cohen's column in today's NY Times.  

*From a reader in Paris*: "An utterly catastrophic decision, one of those rare instances when there is no discernible silver lining to mitigate the disaster. 

A sad day for Europe, but a terrible one for the UK -- in particular for the almost-majority who saw this coming, did what they could to avoid it, and will now have to live with the consequences of their fellow citizens' moment of temporary insanity."

Someone commenting on *what this may mean in terms of our election this Fall*.  "Trump believes the vote to exit the EU was a "great thing." Sarah Palin "welcomed the good news." Chaos and uncertainty and plunging markets are rarely a great thing. The world-wide spread of xenophobia is not good news.


The UK vote would appear to strengthen Trump's chances in November. Trump thrives on fear-mongering and demonization of minorities. His election would be a disaster for the United State and the world. The only "good news" from the vote is that US citizens have been put on notice that a Trump presidency is indeed possible. We must do everything possible to avoid that catastrophe."

*From a reader in London:  *This is a disaster, but it will be a hard lesson to learn for the brexiteers. The reaction from the market is strong but contained as expected. Business and investors are now collectively holding their breath to see what will happen. 


Here is my prediction. In the days to come EU leaders will meet and despite the doom and gloom prediction will offer britain a norway style deal to stay in the EEC. The deal will be that we obey freedom of movement and contribute to the EU budget like before. 


Boris after much "agonizing" will accept. This will signal a return to the status quo. Scotland may remain in the UK, but that is not certain. 


The alternative, which I consider extremely unlikely is that Boris will say no and britain will get no access to the european market at all. This will spark market panic, a scotland exit and a long recession until a new equllibrium on trade is achieved and we settle down to being a lot poorer and with slightly less immigration. 


There are other possibilities that I consider politically untenable, such as unilaterally abolishing all Tarrifs, removing all worker protections, reducing the minimum wage, importing cheap labour from the commonwealth and turning ourselves into a mini-china. I am not certain this will work economically, but politically it is all but impossible. 


If I was a betting man, I would bet good money on Norway-style.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 24, 2016)

"Wonder if this means all the Brits who retired to Spain and France will get kicked out? They won't get free healthcare there any more, they will have to buy insurance. If they are allowed to stay."

More scaremongering, Ameriscot? I thought better of you!

Brits were living in Spain, and elsewhere, long before the Common Market and reciprocal health care arrangement's exist outside the EU, and existed before the Eu was formed.

We've only been in the EU for forty years;  there was life before the EU!


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2016)

oldman said:


> Yeah, I love panic selling. One philosophy I have always agreed with is never to buy stocks when the price is on the way down. However, when it's due to panic selling, I over-ride that thinking and look at this as a buying opportunity. Just like in 2009 and 2010, I did very well then and I will do very well this time.
> 
> By the way, my Newmont Mining (NEM) is doing very well this a.m. Could sell this stock today.
> 
> I just hope that the Europeans thought this through very carefully.



Buy low sell high. They say telecoms and utilities are the only sectors doing well. Not in my portfolio. They made huge gains this spring but today down. Airline stocks aren't doing well either, I guess fear of less travel? 

What's with the PM Cameron resigning. Even media was caught off guard by that. From an outsider standpoint it's looks like a person didn't their way and is saying screw you. If nothing else I would've stayed to get any input I could into the new environment. I guess he is an idealog first and politician/public servant second.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 24, 2016)

What I think I've consistently said was....  



Capt Lightning said:


> Regarding and independent Scotland (which I voted against) applying to join the EU,  I think I'd  keep the options to return to England open.



If Scotland gains independence,  then that still stands.
Have you ever been to Brussels?  Apart from the area round the centre, it's a soul-less dump.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2016)

The EU told the UK get packing. And reminded them until they are gone they are under EU law. oooooo,shiver shiver. To me this is another indicator of why they voted to leave.

http://www.news24.com/World/News/br...itain-must-leave-as-soon-as-possible-20160624


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> What I think I've consistently said was....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What has Brussels being soulless got to do with anything?  I don't want to live there.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "Wonder if this means all the Brits who retired to Spain and France will get kicked out? They won't get free healthcare there any more, they will have to buy insurance. If they are allowed to stay."
> 
> More scaremongering, Ameriscot? I thought better of you!
> 
> ...



If the UK is going to kick out EU immigrants, then it should work both ways.  

Too late to call it scaremongering.  Vote is done.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> Buy low sell high. They say telecoms and utilities are the only sectors doing well. Not in my portfolio. They made huge gains this spring but today down. Airline stocks aren't doing well either, I guess fear of less travel?
> 
> What's with the PM Cameron resigning. Even media was caught off guard by that. From an outsider standpoint it's looks like a person didn't their way and is saying screw you. If nothing else I would've stayed to get any input I could into the new environment. I guess he is an idealog first and politician/public servant second.



This is Cameron's mess for holding a referendum.  So he needs to go.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> This is Cameron's mess for holding a referendum.  So he needs to go.



If he was pro EU wouldn't he have more influence or better working relationships to help with the 'leave' negotiations and subsequent agreements & treaties? The fact there was even a call for a referendum indicates there were enough people that wanted out and the issue needed addressing somehow.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 24, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> If he was pro EU wouldn't he have more influence or better working relationships to help with the 'leave' negotiations and subsequent agreements & treaties? The fact there was even a call for a referendum indicates there were enough people that wanted out and the issue needed addressing somehow.



It was his choice to hold the referendum.  He did not expect a Leave vote.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> It was his choice to hold the referendum.  He did not expect a Leave vote.



Then that shows how out of touch he was. Probably relied on the same pollsters that predicted a stay.

 Also sounds like he probably made some promises to some VIPs in the EU and is no longer in a position to keep them. Still, it seems like he is answering to someone else other than the citizens of the UK.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 24, 2016)

I don't think many people expected a 'Leave' vote,  but I feel that Cameron failed to get a good enough deal to convince the majority to stay.   I also see that there is call for a vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn.  Seems that some people feel he was less than effective at influencing Labour voters.


----------



## Bobw235 (Jun 24, 2016)

And there's this from our esteemed Mr. Trump, (proving his ignorance 140 characters at a time) who Tweeted the following upon landing in Scotland:

"Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No games!"

He was immediately ridiculed by others on Twitter, who pointed out that Scotland voted to "remain".

Part of an article from today's Times:
"AYRSHIRE, Scotland — Donald J. Trump arrived in Scotland just as Britain was deciding to leave the European Union, and proclaimed the momentous departure “a great thing” and the subsequent decline of the British pound good for local companies — including his own Turnberry golf course.


Touching down in Scotland on Friday morning to visit his luxury resort and golf course, Mr. Trump, who in the run-up to the “Brexit” vote had suggested that Britain leave the European Union, took a victory lap of sorts, landing in his “G-TRMP” helicopter and proclaiming, “I said this was going to happen, and I think that it’s a great thing.”


“Basically they took back their country,” Mr. Trump said.


And amid global panic over Britain’s divorce from the European Union, Mr. Trump reacted with celebration and self-interest on a Trump-branded golf course, predicting it would benefit his business and declaring that President Obama contributed to the outcome."


----------



## Laurie (Jun 24, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> What I think I've consistently said was....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Been to Brussels many times.

It's lovely, and its inhabitants, like all the Belgians I have ever met, absolutely charming.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 24, 2016)

Laurie, when it comes to cities, Brussels is way down my list of nice ones.  Round the "Grand Place" is very nice with some great architecture and restaurants, but as you move away, it turns into a  unattractive  sprawl.  My daughter was there recently for a meeting at the EU and expressed similar opinions.  If I wanted a beautiful Belgium city (and I do like Belgium), I'd say Bruges, although Ypres is my all time favourite Belgian town.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 25, 2016)

It's not the cities which are the problem in Belgium nut the countryside!

I don't know what they spread on their fields, but is smells worse than the most malodorous souk I have ever been in!

On a hot summers day you feel like you're eating it.


----------



## oldman (Jun 25, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> My main concern?   what is it going to do to MY retirement funds??



Like everyone else in the markets, your funds will take a hit. However, if there is one lesson that was learned from the crash of 2010 is that the markets are incredibly resilient. We went down all the way to the 6000 level in 2010 and then bounced back to above the 18,000 level. The problem that the U.S. has at the moment is that unlike the crash of '10, we can't spend our way back to recovery. This one is out of our hands. 

I am no longer in a 401k, but if I was, I would review it and make sure that my portfolio is diversified. IOW, don't put all of your eggs in one basket. I would still have maybe 50% in an index fund and then divide the other 50% with the other funds, including a small amount into an emerging market fund and of course, if offered, a precious metals fund. 

Keep in mind, it may take up to two years before the U.K. leaves the EU, so why the panic, I do not know. After all, for the meantime, the U.K is going nowhere.


----------



## Don M. (Jun 25, 2016)

Laurie said:


> It's not the cities which are the problem in Belgium nut the countryside!
> 
> I don't know what they spread on their fields, but is smells worse than the most malodorous souk I have ever been in!
> 
> On a hot summers day you feel like you're eating it.



I remember when I was in Germany, in the 1960's.  In the Summer you could smell the farming areas from quite a distance.  The farmers gathered the animal waste, and spread it across their fields...we called their carts "Honey Wagons".  Such practices have been around forever, and continue even today.  However, given some of the issues with artificial fertilizers, etc., these "natural" means of fertilization are probably better...both for the environment, and the consumers.


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## Don M. (Jun 25, 2016)

oldman said:


> Like everyone else in the markets, your funds will take a hit. Keep in mind, it may take up to two years before the U.K. leaves the EU, so why the panic, I do not know. After all, for the meantime, the U.K is going nowhere.



True.  This Brexit issue, coming from a nation that is such an important global player, was bound to upset the stock markets.  If there is any good thing about the market reaction, it is the fact that it happened on a Friday.  Perhaps, over the weekend, as investors have some time to mull this all over, and realize that this is Not the end of the world, the markets will react in a more positive manner in coming days...I hope.  This vote is just the first small step in what will be a long process before the EU can finally cut its ties to Brussels.  All the ordinary investor can do is stay diversified, and ride it out.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 25, 2016)

Don M. said:


> True.  This Brexit issue, coming from a nation that is such an important global player, was bound to upset the stock markets.  If there is any good thing about the market reaction, it is the fact that it happened on a Friday.  Perhaps, over the weekend, as investors have some time to mull this all over, and realize that this is Not the end of the world, the markets will react in a more positive manner in coming days...I hope.  This vote is just the first small step in what will be a long process before the EU can finally cut its ties to Brussels.  All the ordinary investor can do is stay diversified, and ride it out.



My thoughts as well. First never panic sell.

 Have to be very careful about listening to commentators and following the results/statistics. The market dropped but those who actually lost money or had to sell at a loss is a different matter. It was a loss in potential value/profit as much as anything. Some of the big firms and banks who trade the same stock daily are the ones that took most of the losses. That will come back on fund values. Yes if one needs to pull/sell for cash over the next couple of weeks the vote might be an issue. I still have stuff I can sell at a profit and will sell for more than it did last month. This is one reason why diversification is so critical.

Keep in mind many in the markets weren't in the markets for the 2008 or 1987 crash. This is their first big down cycle or high profile event/day on the markets. Same for many commentators especially in social media. The sky is not falling, yet. 

Also with the Brexit and voters & vote. I don't think many realize how influential the EU had become or how deep it got into domestic economies. But it is one reason the Brexit vote was correct because in a sense the EU has become one of those 'too big too fail' entities. The Greek bailout was an example of that. They/the EU doesn't have to be bailed out but the scope of their policy made them no better than the banks and insurance companies during mortgage meltdown.


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## Laurie (Jun 25, 2016)

"The farmers gathered the animal waste, and spread it across their fields."

  Still wifely used here, and I passed a huge steaming heap yesterday weathering before spreading, and quite used to keeping the widows shut for a day when the do the field opposite!

It's something else in Belgium.


----------



## senile1 (Jun 25, 2016)

www.eutruth.org.uk


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

Hmmm. My family have been Freemasons for generations. Certainly not controlled by anyone.


----------



## senile1 (Jun 26, 2016)

senile1 said:


> www.eutruth.org.uk





This above link is an example of the types of articles anyone can get online to support any subject.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 26, 2016)

Thanks Senile1.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 26, 2016)

The point not much mentioned is that the result of the referendum is merely advisory, not legally binding.  Parliament could simply ignore it or vote not to implement it.


----------



## Meringue (Jun 26, 2016)

Unbelievable the arrogance of the "sore losers", not respecting the will of the people. And this farce of a petition against the Brexit result.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 26, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> The point not much mentioned is that the result of the referendum is merely advisory, not legally binding.  Parliament could simply ignore it or vote not to implement it.



True it is not legally binding but can you imagine what would happen if the government went against what the people voted?  What if that happened after the independence vote in 2014?


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 26, 2016)

Meringue said:


> Unbelievable the arrogance of the "sore losers", not respecting the will of the people. And this farce of a petition against the Brexit result.



Iit appears an anti brexit movement is being jump started by ginning up the stay crowd with the negative news of ONE day. A lot of these people don't understand the markets or things take time. I know the PM over promised but Cameron resigning still puzzles me. Too many petitions or referendums could turn into mob rule real fast. They need to put that effort what they want to see in the EU free era.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 26, 2016)

I did not sign the petition for a second referendum, and won't.  I'm cutting way down on my moaning about this and looking forward to casting my second YES vote for Scottish independence.  The UK could end up consisting of England and Wales only while Scotland and NI leave the UK and both are in the EU again.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 26, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> True it is not legally binding but can you imagine what would happen if the government went against what the people voted?  What if that happened after the independence vote in 2014?



It might not be up to the government.

If the opposition parties combined with a few Tory rebels, and they're not hard to find,  they could vote it down.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 26, 2016)

Laurie said:


> It might not be up to the government.
> 
> If the opposition parties combined with a few Tory rebels, and they're not hard to find,  they could vote it down.



Wouldn't that cause more political turmoil by ignoring the voters will. Still would have half the country divided.

Are there any EU practices or agreements that would or could remain?


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 26, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> True it is not legally binding but can you imagine what would happen if the government went against what the people voted?  What if that happened after the independence vote in 2014?



I merely wondered what the legal position of the referendum was.   

I disagree with your thought that N.Ireland would leave the UK, especially if it meant a united Ireland. That would not sit well with the Loyalist community.


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 26, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> I merely wondered what the legal position of the referendum was.
> 
> I disagree with your thought that N.Ireland would leave the UK, especially if it meant a united Ireland. That would not sit well with the Loyalist community.



Agree that it would be very messy to try to reunite Ireland and NI, but Scotland's divorce would be bloodless.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 26, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> The point not much mentioned is that the result of the referendum is merely advisory, not legally binding.  Parliament could simply ignore it or vote not to implement it.



Interesting.  I did not know that.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 26, 2016)

One thing I wondered -- whilst reading the BBC online news last night, there was mention of a "shadow cabinet."  What's that?


----------



## Ameriscot (Jun 26, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> One thing I wondered -- whilst reading the BBC online news last night, there was mention of a "shadow cabinet."  What's that?



The Shadow Cabinet is made up of the leaders of the opposition party.  It is currently the Labour Party.


----------



## Fern (Jun 26, 2016)

> As a member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, I felt alienation  when Britain joined the Common Market, to which we were excluded, but  over the years I got used to it. If they leave now, things will not go  back to what they were before, because we Australians have moved on.


Same goes for New Zealand.


----------



## NancyM (Jun 27, 2016)

To me it seems strange to vote again. There were just two options, all people who wanted to vote did it


----------



## senile1 (Jun 27, 2016)

NancyM said:


> To me it seems strange to vote again. There were just two options, all people who wanted to vote did it




Tis the future of the Democratic process, if you receive the desired results, keeping voting till you do.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 27, 2016)

NancyM said:


> To me it seems strange to vote again. There were just two options, all people who wanted to vote did it



Except that the leading google search in the UK the day after was "the EU".   Many of those interviewed had no clue what they were voting for, or if they did stated that they were casting a protest vote with no chance of it passing.  It appears there is a lot of buyers remorse happening there.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 27, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> Except that the leading google search in the UK the day after was "the EU".   Many of those interviewed had no clue what they were voting for, or if they did stated that they were casting a protest vote with no chance of it passing.  It appears there is a lot of buyers remorse happening there.



Appears to whom?

Not to anybody I've spoken to.  Believe me, anyone who took the trouble to get out and vote knew exactly what they were voting for.

Yes it was protest vote, a protest about not being in charge of our own affairs.
Hoe would you feel in the States about the Supreme Court was overruled by a Pan-American court, whose proceedings weren't even conducted in your own language?

Yes, it was protest vote, too damn right it was a protest vote!


----------



## Don M. (Jun 27, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Appears to whom?  Not to anybody I've spoken to.  Believe me, anyone who took the trouble to get out and vote knew exactly what they were voting for.  Yes it was protest vote, a protest about not being in charge of our own affairs.  Hoe would you feel in the States about the Supreme Court was overruled by a Pan-American court, whose proceedings weren't even conducted in your own language?  Yes, it was protest vote, too damn right it was a protest vote!



For the most part, I can understand the outcome of this vote, and the desire of the people in the UK to have more control over their own lives.  Much the same attitude exists in many of the people in the U.S., who feel that Washington is overstepping its boundaries.  Our government is being highly secretive about the negotiations taking place with this TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership), which could ultimately lead to some "international tribunal" overriding the wishes of our own people.  Without proper checks and balances, government always tends to assume more power than it should have.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 27, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Appears to whom?
> 
> Not to anybody I've spoken to.  Believe me, anyone who took the trouble to get out and vote knew exactly what they were voting for.
> 
> ...



Well... now you will have to live with it... whatever the ramifications will be.

I guess we here in the States will have to also... as the market is nose diving again today...  Love seeing my retirement savings pissed away on a protest vote.


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 27, 2016)

Apparently there is some fraud with the petition for a second vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407

Sore loser syndrome or organized effort?

I did here one of the commentators point out that many of the older voters either saw what the UK was before the EU and/or voted for/advocated  joining the EU. So I think it's fitting that that bracket voters with first hand picture of before/after EU membership had an influence on the brexit vote.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 27, 2016)

"government always tends to assume more power than it should have."

It's not about a government assuming more power, but about a government giving up ever more power, to an organisation whose own auditors have found ""significant errors" since 1995.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 27, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> Well... now you will have to live with it... whatever the ramifications will be.
> 
> I guess we here in the States will have to also... as the market is nose diving again today...  Love seeing my retirement savings pissed away on a protest vote.



Don't blame us, blame those who invested your funds in volatile world markets in pursuit of a quick buck.

That's exactly why we voted "Out", to take back control of our own affairs.

If it's any consolation, my retirement income will suffer a lot more that yous!


----------



## WhatInThe (Jun 27, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> Well... now you will have to live with it... whatever the ramifications will be.
> 
> I guess we here in the States will have to also... as the market is nose diving again today...  Love seeing my retirement savings pissed away on a protest vote.



That's a voluntary market reaction by panic sellers. I don't think there is one post UK free EU policy in place yet. It's still mostly speculative trading. Until one actually sells at a loss or gain the ups and downs are on potential paper value. Yeh if one actually had to make a sale now they might lose, especially if they bought recently. Some firms who trade the same stock a thousands of times a day will lose which carries over to funds. But profits can come back just as quick. 

Buy Low Sell High still applies


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 27, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> That's a voluntary market reaction by panic sellers. I don't think there is one post UK free EU policy in place yet. It's still mostly speculative trading. Until one actually sells at a loss or gain the ups and downs are on potential paper value. Yeh if one actually had to make a sale now they might lose, especially if they bought recently. Some firms who trade the same stock a thousands of times a day will lose which carries over to funds. But profits can come back just as quick.
> 
> Buy Low Sell High still applies



I know what this market downturn is... I lived through the 2008 fiasco and came out for the better...   But I agree... we don't know what post free EU policy will bring, however,  we will have to see what happens AND we are all going to have to live with the outcome..  good OR bad.


----------



## Laurie (Jun 27, 2016)

One aspect of Brexit which has not yet received comment is the fact that now we British can no longer blame the EU for everything from the weather to the price of haggis, we will have to go back to the traditional favourites, the Americans!


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 28, 2016)

I  love this comment for its Jane Austen references.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jun 28, 2016)

Laurie said:


> One aspect of Brexit which has not yet received comment is the fact that now we British can no longer blame the EU for everything from the weather to the price of haggis, we will have to go back to the traditional favourites, the Americans!



Yes... We've noticed...


----------



## Don M. (Jun 28, 2016)

Laurie said:


> One aspect of Brexit which has not yet received comment is the fact that now we British can no longer blame the EU for everything from the weather to the price of haggis, we will have to go back to the traditional favourites, the Americans!



I hope the UK can work through this, and come out of it with some positive results, however, I can't help thinking about the old saying "Be careful of what you wish for...you might just get it".


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## QuickSilver (Jun 28, 2016)

Don M. said:


> I hope the UK can work through this, and come out of it with some positive results, however, I can't help thinking about the old saying "Be careful of what you wish for...you might just get it".



My feelings too...  I really don't care what the UK does or what "union" it's in.. so long as it doesn't negatively impact us.. BUT of course in a global market.. it will...  Certainly not as much as it's going to impact them.. but it will have some ramifications.


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 28, 2016)

We mightn't have cared much about your Subprime mortgage crisis if it hadn't impacted on us, BUT of course in a global market.. it did!  Certainly not as much as it impacted on you.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 28, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> We mightn't have cared much about your Subprime mortgage crisis if it hadn't impacted on us, BUT of course in a global market.. it did!  Certainly not as much as it impacted on you.



Then you know how we feel.... and we now know how you felt.....  You didn't do this to teach us a lesson did you?  lol!!


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2016)

The EU now considers the UK the black sheep of the family and NO ONE is to talk to them without "official" notification(article 50 I believe). No preliminary talks, feelers, informal/unofficial meetings which probably would speed up the process. Instead cry baby EU now whipping out the rule book to exercise what ever power they have over the UK one last time.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/na...fab9b3829e452989a81955faa5a1b1-384647181.html

And yet they are  already trying to dictate terms by emphasizing formal negotiations and "no cherry picking", this IS how YOU WILL negotiate. I don't know how the UK and other countries tolerated the EU and what ever they call leaders/leadership.


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## Bee (Jun 28, 2016)

The normal procedure for Britain to leave the E.U. could take up to 2 years, which Cameron knew.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/f

As far as I am concerned we will be worse off leaving the E.U.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

Brexit gained popularity particularly since Merkel shot herself in the foot. Damned idiot! Germany and France are the originateurs of the EU so you would think Merkel had more brains. Nope! Her country was on the ground floor to a good idea ..... and it's her country that will destroy it.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2016)

I never realized how entrenched the EU had become until the last couple of years. I thought the EU was to help regulate the currency(the euro) and SOME economic policy for trading purposes only. It's one thing to give EU approved goods & carriers easy access to a country but stuff like open borders for non commerce or having to bailout another country because they didn't control their spending?


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## Laurie (Jun 28, 2016)

"he normal procedure for Britain to leave the E.U."

Yet more nonsense.

What "normal procedure"?

It's a unique process which has never taken place before!


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## Shalimar (Jun 28, 2016)

Veri, would you please clarify what you mean around Angela Merkel?


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## Bee (Jun 28, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "he normal procedure for Britain to leave the E.U."
> 
> Yet more nonsense.
> 
> ...



OK I worded it wrongly but you knew what I mean't.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "he normal procedure for Britain to leave the E.U."
> 
> Yet more nonsense.
> 
> ...



That's part of the arrogance of the EU assuming it would never happen with any country. Also confusing as to why the EU is insisting on doing by the book what ever that is. If all the details were worked out in advance(informal off the record discussion) then presented formally to the EU & UK wouldn't that actually be quicker? If nothing else if the UK and EU were presented with the details of exiting in off the record the talks that might change both their minds on their stances. This looks like a divorce that can only be worked out in court.


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## Cookie (Jun 28, 2016)

From my recent reading, it seems the likelihood of it being implemented is slim.  It might take years, if at all.


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## senile1 (Jun 28, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> That's part of the arrogance of the EU assuming it would never happen with any country. Also confusing as to why the EU is insisting on doing by the book what ever that is. If all the details were worked out in advance(informal off the record discussion) then presented formally to the EU & UK wouldn't that actually be quicker? If nothing else if the UK and EU were presented with the details of exiting in off the record the talks that might change both their minds on their stances. This looks like a divorce that can only be worked out in court.




In losing the UK, the EU has lost one of it's  more stable members. With members such as Sweden , Germany, and Denmark possibly considering leaving, the EU wants to make an example of the UK. This dog is going to return to bite them(the EU). The UK's economical and military capabilities are vital to the security of Eastern Europe, which the EU wells knows and at this time, are attempting using scare tactics to preserve the EU. The UK never converted to the Euro, so their leaving will not have the long term economical effects the naysayers predict. One major result of leaving the EU will be safer borders and more control of anyone entering / leaving the UK. As I felt all along, the UK will ok, economically and with regaining control of it's borders; more secure.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "he normal procedure for Britain to leave the E.U."
> 
> Yet more nonsense.
> 
> ...



Normal, Democratic/Political Process. They don't implement the guillotine and install a new entity the moment the head hits the basket.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Veri, would you please clarify what you mean around Angela Merkel?


I mean that anyone who thought it was worth keeping the EU "as is" (by counting the blessings and balancing out the negative aspects) woke up pretty damned quickly when Merkel opened the floodgates and individual, respective national leaders agreed to it. I am from Sweden. What my country and Germany did affected every EU member state by way of the Schengen Agreement.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> That's part of the arrogance of the EU assuming it would never happen with any country. Also confusing as to why the EU is insisting on doing by the book what ever that is. If all the details were worked out in advance(informal off the record discussion) then presented formally to the EU & UK wouldn't that actually be quicker? If nothing else if the UK and EU were presented with the details of exiting in off the record the talks that might change both their minds on their stances. This looks like a divorce that can only be worked out in court.


We no longer live in the Democratic 60's. The Americans illegally invaded Irak on an obvious lie and fabrication of "proof" of WMD's, tortured and murdered a million innocent men, women, and children ......... and got away with it .... the consequences to the Middle East is irreversible. Merkel acted on her own, allowing millions (?) of "illegal" migrants to storm into (and occupy) western Europe. So far she's got away with it and the consequences for Europe are irreversible. 

Now, what were you saying about "working out details in advance" ..... "informal off the record discussions" ...... and "changing minds" THAT WAY? We are losing faith in the power of Democracy in the face of Fascist impunity. Right or wrong (wrong of course) we cannot turn the other cheek, no matter the weather.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

senile1 said:


> In losing the UK, the EU has lost one of it's  more stable members. With members such as Sweden , Germany, and Denmark possibly considering leaving ...... *The UK never converted to the Euro*, so their leaving will not have the long term economical effects .....


Neither has Denmark or Sweden.


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## Shalimar (Jun 28, 2016)

Sadly, I have my doubts that democracy was ever viable given the need to preserve power by any and all means necessary--behind the scenes at least.


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Sadly, I have my doubts that democracy was ever viable given the need to preserve power by any and all means necessary--behind the scenes at least.


There's a thought that needs much discussion.


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## Shalimar (Jun 28, 2016)

I am ever an optimistic realist, and no, I  am not suffering from cognitive dissonance. layful:


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

*"Hope dies last**"
Alexander Dubcek*


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## senile1 (Jun 28, 2016)

Verisure said:


> *"Hope dies last**"
> Alexander Dubcek*




Au contraire, Hope never dies, people just surrender.


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## Shalimar (Jun 28, 2016)

En garde!


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## Verisure (Jun 28, 2016)

senile1 said:


> Au contraire, Hope never dies, *people just surrender*.


That is exactly what the death of hope is.


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## senile1 (Jun 29, 2016)

Verisure said:


> That is exactly what the death of hope is.





As long as just I person believes, hope will never die.


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## Laurie (Jun 29, 2016)

Verisure said:


> Normal, Democratic/Political Process. They don't implement the guillotine and install a new entity the moment the head hits the basket.



Democratic? In the EU?

If I knew how to post a hollow laugh I would do so!


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## Verisure (Jun 29, 2016)

senile1 said:


> As long as just I person believes, hope will never die.


I am certain that Alexander Dubček meant personal hopes and dreams.



Laurie said:


> Democratic? In the EU?
> If I knew how to post a hollow laugh I would do so!


Bee was speaking on Britain's behalf .... not the EU. But maybe we should ask her first.


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## Bee (Jun 29, 2016)

Yes my post was referring to the procedure of Britain leaving the E.U., hence the link I posted.


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## Bobw235 (Jun 29, 2016)

And for a more _light-hearted_ look at a post-Brexit Britain, I offer up today's Frank Bruni column.  He touches on Canada, Australia and a number of other countries in a very tongue-in-cheek column.  Some may enjoy this after so much (well-deserved) serious discussion on this thread.

A sample from the column: 
*A Bachelor Named Britain, Looking for Love

*It has been forever since Britain was single, and there will be many lonesome and disorienting nights ahead.


Maybe we should fix it up with Switzerland.


Not immediately, of course. The divorce from the European Union was just announced. The paperwork hasn’t been filed. There could be a loss of nerve, a relaxing of conjugal rules, tulips from Holland, chocolates from Belgium. Greece and Portugal could promise to stop leaving dirty dishes in the sink, Germany to quit hogging the remote.


But as things stand now, Britain will soon stand apart, and we all know how that goes: exhilaration, followed by panic, leading to an age-inappropriate Tinder account. Oh, look, here’s Iceland, flashing its most voluptuous volcanoes. Nah, too stony and lugubrious, and you can listen to only so much Björk. Swipe left.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 30, 2016)

They said this divorce could get even messier if Scotland declares independence. Who gets the nuclear submarine base, subs and nukes- Joint custody?


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## Capt Lightning (Jun 30, 2016)

Nobody.  The 'Red queen' is very left-wing and obsessively anti-nuclear weapons. She appears more than happy to deprive the UK of it's defence facitities. If she had any sense, she'd rent the facilities back to the UK as Scotland would need the money.
 Of course in the  event of nuclear war, the SNP could pass a law that fallout had to  stop at the border and so Scotland wouldn't be affected.


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## Shalimar (Jun 30, 2016)

Capt, "fallout had to stop at the border," hahahahahahahaha!


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## senile1 (Jun 30, 2016)

I have always felt that the results of leaving the EU would have minimal effects on the UK economically, and would actually result in a more secure country, as the UK would better able to control who's allowed into the country.

[h=3]The bright side of Brexit? A U.S.-U.K. trade deal - POLITICO[/h]www.politico.com/story/2016/06/brexit-us-*britain*-*trade*-*deal*-224776


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## senile1 (Jun 30, 2016)

[h=1]11 Countries Gearing Up to Strike Trade Deals With Britain[/h]http://heatst.com/uk/11-countries-ge...-with-britain/


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## Laurie (Jun 30, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> They said this divorce could get even messier if Scotland declares independence. Who gets the nuclear submarine base, subs and nukes- Joint custody?



Stays with the rump UK.

Simply becomes a sovereign base and remains UK territory, same as Guantanamo is US territory.


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## Fern (Jun 30, 2016)

Seems to me Scotland wants things both ways. They voted not to leave Britain,now they are looking at independence. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.


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## senile1 (Jun 30, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Stays with the rump UK.
> 
> Simply becomes a sovereign base and remains UK territory, same as Guantanamo is US territory.





As there are countries(including EU and USA) lining up to negotiate  economic and/or trade treaties with the UK, upon it's departure from the EU; the driving force on whether Scotland votes to stay or leave the UK will be largely determined most by Scotland's desire to be an independent nation. As there will appear new markets, along with old markets  willing to trade and / or do business with the UK , it's economic and trade future appears to be brightening. As I have always maintained , the UK is vital to the economical health and security of Eastern Europe


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## Ameriscot (Jul 1, 2016)

Fern said:


> Seems to me Scotland wants things both ways. They voted not to leave Britain,now they are looking at independence. Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.



Scotland voted on independence from the UK in 2014.  The vote was 55% to stay (not my vote).  They warned that if the UK voted to leave the EU that there would be another independence vote as 62% don't want out of the EU.  

How that having your cake and eating it too?


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## Bonzo (Jul 5, 2016)

I voted leave 
We got our country back
that my father and grandfather  
died fighting for in the war


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## WhatInThe (Jul 5, 2016)

Bonzo said:


> I voted leave
> We got our country back
> that my father and grandfather
> died fighting for in the war



See you have an actual perspective and know what was, is and can now be. It looks like a lot of the kids or young ones don't want to leave probably because they don't know any different.


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## Bee (Jul 5, 2016)

Veterans against Brexit.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm sure there were some WWII veterans and era voters wanting to stay but over all it appears the kids wanted to stay.

http://time.com/4381878/brexit-generation-gap-older-younger-voters/


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## Bee (Jul 6, 2016)

Before the vote I watched a TV programme where the audience consisted of students and other youngsters, listening to them speaking about the reasons for staying in the E.U., in my opinion they made a lot more sense for staying in the E.U. than the older generation did that wanted to leave.

Don't ever underestimate youngsters just because they haven't lived as long as the older generation.


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## Shalimar (Jul 6, 2016)

Well said Bee.


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## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

Bonzo said:


> I voted leave
> We got our country back
> that my father and grandfather
> died fighting for in the war



Good God, that was 75 years ago. Move on.   As well say stay in because the Germans saved us at Waterloo.

I voted "Leave" too nut not for such a daft reason as that!


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 6, 2016)

Having voted to leave, all we seem to have is hostility from the rest of Europe, especially the French.  Nobody seems to be saying, "Please reconsider, I'm sure we can negociate terms".  No, It's all "Pack you bags and go".

Well, if that's what they're going to be like, let's get out and start rebuilding Britain again.


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## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

" especially the French. "

So what else is new?

They've been the same ever since Agincourt!


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## oakapple (Jul 9, 2016)

I would like to see some sort of American style optimism and can do spirit now that we are leaving the EU, instead of all the typical whinging we seem to go in for here!raying:


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## WhatInThe (Jul 9, 2016)

It looks official-no re-do. A second vote will not take place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/british-...ng-second-eu-referendum-115450393.html?ref=gs


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## Laurie (Jul 9, 2016)

"I would like to see some sort of American style optimism "

Don't depend on it too much.

I've got a friend in San Antone who's talking about Texit!


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## Fern (Jul 9, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> It looks official-no re-do. A second vote will not take place.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/british-...ng-second-eu-referendum-115450393.html?ref=gs


And rightly so. 



> Having voted to leave, all we seem to have is hostility from the rest of  Europe, especially the French.  Nobody seems to be saying, "Please  reconsider, I'm sure we can negociate terms".  No, It's all "Pack you  bags and go".
> 
> Well, if that's what they're going to be like, let's get out and start rebuilding Britain again.


The way I saw it Britain lost it's identity by joining the EU. Rule Britannia.


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## Laurie (Jul 10, 2016)

"The way I saw it Britain lost it's identity by joining the EU. Rule Britannia."

Not when we joined, it was an excellent trading union, long overdue, but we certainly lost our identity as it got so big and cumbersome, which is why I turned full circle and opted for out.

No-one has yet explained to me why Slovakia, with no coastline, gets to vote on how many days Scottish fishermen can spend at sea.

The days of Rule Britannia have long gone, and we can no longer exploit the world, but at least we should be in charge of our own destiny.


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## oakapple (Jul 10, 2016)

Well said Laurie, I agree with that.
I had a laugh with the Texit joke ( or was it?) The French are discussing Frexit.


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## Dupe Murkland (Jul 10, 2016)

Laurie said:


> No-one has yet explained to me why Slovakia, with no coastline, gets to vote on how many days Scottish fishermen can spend at sea.



Yeah... that _was_ weird.  Britain could've voted that Slovakia restrict traditional folk-dancing to *one* festival per-Summer.  Not every weekend.  And make sure the handicrafts were actually crafted by-hand.  No technological shortcuts.  

_That's_ where the EU is headed-to.  I'm glad you guys walked-out.


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## Laurie (Jul 10, 2016)

oakapple said:


> Well said Laurie, I agree with that.
> I had a laugh with the Texit joke ( or was it?) The French are discussing Frexit.



Not a joke.  The guy is a vet and not only told me about it but  expressed his full support!

" Britain could've voted "

Yes, Britain, meaning England, could have voted, but the EU will not admit a member of the constitutional and democratically elected Scottish Government into the fishing quota talks  even as an observer.


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## Fern (Jul 10, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "The way I saw it Britain lost it's identity by joining the EU. Rule Britannia."
> 
> Not when we joined, it was an excellent trading union, long overdue, but we certainly lost our identity as it got so big and cumbersome, which is why I turned full circle and opted for out.
> 
> ...


The rule Britannia was said with tongue in cheek.  While it may have been  an 'excellent trading union', in doing so Britain threw it's long time trading partner/s to the wolves.


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## senile1 (Jul 10, 2016)

Fern said:


> The rule Britannia was said with tongue in cheek.  While it may have been  an 'excellent trading union', in doing so Britain threw it's long time trading partner/s to the wolves.




As expected, upon Great Britain's departure from the EU, there will be much change; mostly for the good. Countries are lining up to sign new trade and commerce treaties, and many of those are EU countries, as well the USA and even markets previously unavailable to them. Great Britain's economy and military strength will always make them a major player in the security and business/ commerce of Western Europe.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 11, 2016)

Excuse me, but many of you keep saying 'Great Britain' is leaving the EU.  The UK voted to leave, not just Great Britain.  Northern Ireland is include in this deal.


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 11, 2016)

As Ameriscot rightly points out,  N.Ireland   is also part of the UK.
Some of the Islands, notably the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, are not  part of the UK or EU, but are 'Crown dependancies'.
These islands take part in the EU freedom of movement of goods but not people, services or capital.


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## Warrigal (Jul 11, 2016)

Sorry but the complicated nomenclature for the old country is more than I can get my head around when I'm posting.
I have no idea why such a small geographic area has so many different countries with different currencies even.
Do the rest of us a favour and unify or federate. :hide:


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## Laurie (Jul 11, 2016)

Fern said:


> The rule Britannia was said with tongue in cheek.  While it may have been  an 'excellent trading union', in doing so Britain threw it's long time trading partner/s to the wolves.



I won't argue with that.

I said from the first that the Commonwealth, by it's very diversity, was a major player.

"Sorry but the complicated nomenclature for the old country is more than I can get my head around when I'm posting."

The British Isles includes all the islands, including the whole of Ireland.  the United Kingdom includes most of the islands but not the Irish Republic (and maybe not Scotland soon, but that's another thread!), Great Britain is the main island only and excludes all the smaller islands.

Speaking personally, I try not to post about anything "I can't  get my head around" (though not always succeeding!).


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## Ameriscot (Jul 11, 2016)

Laurie said:


> I won't argue with that.
> 
> I said from the first that the Commonwealth, by it's very diversity, was a major player.
> 
> ...




And British Isles is a geographic term only, not political.


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## Meringue (Jul 11, 2016)

Laurie said:


> I won't argue with that.
> 
> I said from the first that the Commonwealth, by it's very diversity, was a major player.
> 
> ...



The British Isles does NOT include the whole of Ireland, just  Northern Ireland.   Ireland (meaning the Irish Republic) is a separate entity.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 11, 2016)

Meringue said:


> The British Isles does NOT include the whole of Ireland, just  Northern Ireland.   Ireland (meaning the Irish Republic) is a separate entity.



As I said, British Isles is a *geographic* term and does include all of Ireland including the republic.  Just google it.

Here is one of many websites that will explain it:

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/


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## Laurie (Jul 11, 2016)

"Ireland (meaning the Irish Republic) is a separate entity."

It cannot be a separate entity in the word "Isles" since it is not an island!


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## oakapple (Jul 11, 2016)

Ameriscot is correct.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 11, 2016)

A EU trade commissioner is basically saying the voters or populist movements don't know what they are doing citing trade issues, the US & Trump as an example along with 'elsewhere' meaning the UK but being in Europe she probably didn't want to insult the UK voters.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters...vements-can-bring-isolation--failure/42287230


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## Laurie (Jul 12, 2016)

"voters or populist movements don't know what they are doing citing trade issues"

Of course they don't, that's not insulting.

I have no idea how our trade with Cameroon will be affected by our exit vote, that's why  we elect governments, and newspapers and news channels employ analysts and commentators.

Cameron had a momentous decision to take and he bottled out, just as he bottled out of minority government.

I'd like to say he's now getting what he deserves, but he isn't, mot with a fabulous life pension, a lucrative lecture tour and numerous well paid directorships.

We'll have a new Prime Minister tomorrow, but many, including me, think she may just be a stalking horse!

Tory party plots make the Borgias look like rank amateurs!


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## Ameriscot (Jul 12, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "voters or populist movements don't know what they are doing citing trade issues"
> 
> Of course they don't, that's not insulting.
> 
> ...



So, still want Scotland to stay in the UK?


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## Warrigal (Jul 12, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Speaking personally, I try not to post about anything "I can't  get my head around" (though not always succeeding!).



But, but, but.... If I don't risk making mistakes, I'll never learn anything.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 12, 2016)

Yes, you are a good student...&#55358;&#56595;


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## Laurie (Jul 12, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> So, still want Scotland to stay in the UK?



Don't know where you got that idea.

I voted for independence and I haven't changed my mind, even if I might have to leave the country.


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## Ameriscot (Jul 12, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Don't know where you got that idea.
> 
> I voted for independence and I haven't changed my mind, even if I might have to leave the country.



Sorry. I thought I was the only one here that voted Yes. The Capt voted No and I thought you had as well.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 12, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "voters or populist movements don't know what they are doing citing trade issues"
> 
> Of course they don't, that's not insulting.
> 
> ...



But it is insulting when politicians say there are jobs there or that shouldn't be when the voter's job was outsourced, downsized or eliminated. The politicians are there to prevent and/or fix that and they haven't in more than one country.


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