# How do you feel about abortion?



## Glinda (May 28, 2015)

How do you feel about abortion?  Do you agree that it should be legal during the first trimester of pregnancy?  Should the law be more restrictive?  Less restrictive?  Do you feel morally compelled to decide this issue for someone else?  Or only for yourself?  Have your views on this subject changed over the years?  Are your views dictated by your religion?  Are there other aspects of the issue you'd like to discuss?


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## QuickSilver (May 28, 2015)

I feel the same as I've always felt..  It's a legal procedure.. and should be only between a woman and her doctor.  I also feel that it there should be no questions asked up until the time of viability.  After that only to protect the life of the Mother or to alleviate the pain of carrying a nonviable or dead fetus..  Late term abortions are so incredibly rare anyway unless for that reason.    To hear the Right talk,  thousands of 7 and 8 month pregnant women are waddling into an abortion clinic and saying "Dang! I knew there was something I was meaning to do.. but just didn't get around to it until now"....   That is ridiculous.


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## Ameriscot (May 28, 2015)

I support a woman's right to choose.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Abortion under any condition should be absolutely legal and without constraint by any local or state laws.  If the patient is under 18 a parent or guardian should be a party to the decision.  There are far too many unwanted and uncared for children in the world.


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## Josiah (May 28, 2015)

My feelings are exactly the same as QuickSilver's.


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## Falcon (May 28, 2015)

In the 1st place, it should NEVER be used as a means of birth control !
Otherwise, Advice should be given to a girl/woman who doesn't understand all the ramifications of the procedure.
If a woman with long term plans for her life has made a "mistake" and becomes pregnant it may be used to prevent those plans.
One more thing (And I may be taken to task to mention this); IF it can be determined that the fetus is not developing normally
and will be born with a SEVERE  physical  or mental handicap it should be aborted. Why would you bring a child into the world like that?

Under NO circumstances should it be used in LATE pregnancies. If the mother's health and survival is concerned, it should be done.


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## Lon (May 28, 2015)

I feel it's a choice for the pregnant female to make.


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## QuickSilver (May 28, 2015)

Falcon said:


> In the 1st place, it should NEVER be used as a means of birth control !
> Otherwise, Advice should be given to a girl/woman who doesn't understand all the ramifications of the procedure.
> If a woman with long term plans for her life has made a "mistake" and becomes pregnant it may be used to prevent those plans.
> One more thing (And I may be taken to task to mention this); IF it can be determined that the fetus is not developing normally
> ...




Ahhhhh.... poor stupid women must be schooled on what it means to be pregnant or exactly what having an abortion means.   How in the world would we ever be able to function if there were no men to teach us..   Seriously...

As for using an abortion as birth control?   Another Right wing mythology.   Have you ever HAD an abortion?  I have had to have D&C's and Uterine biopsies, and believe me those are no walk in the park... I imagine an abortion to be much the same procedure.   Plus abortions are not free... nor are they cheap...  they are painful... and they are expensive for most women..  But then again... most of us are to stupid to realize that.


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## Josiah (May 28, 2015)

What follows is the summary of an article

When Pregnancies are Unwanted
By Nancy Felipe Russo, Ph.D., Arizona State University and Henry P. David, Ph.D., Transnational Family Research Institute
3/05/02

In summary, there is a substantial literature that documents the serious health, social, psychological, and economic consequences of unintended and unwanted childbearing. These consequences can include increased maternal and infant death and illness, unstable marriages, and the restriction of educational and occupational opportunities leading to poverty and limited roles for women. These adverse effects are not shared equally by all segments of society, and in the United States fall more heavily on those who are poor, young, or members of an ethnic minority group. Further, evidence suggests that even in advantageous social and economic circumstances, when a pregnancy is unwanted and the women requests an abortion, to deny it forces her to bear a child at risk for psychological problems that are long lasting. In this context, the watchword of the family planning movement - 'Every Child a Wanted Child' has particular meaning for health professionals.


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## Falcon (May 28, 2015)

Oh crap. As usual, politics creeps into every thread.

And NO! I have never had an abortion; wrong gender.

Having been a medical photographer for many years, I know a lot about abortions and D&Cs.

As a nurse, you should know (As I do) how many abortions are performed in hospitals. (Daily, weekly etc.)


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## QuickSilver (May 28, 2015)

Falcon said:


> Oh crap. As usual, politics creeps into every thread.
> 
> And NO! I have never had an abortion; wrong gender.
> 
> ...



How would I know?   I was a cardiac nurse... and Now, I review Medicare charts.. Not many abortions in the 65+ set.    

And why do you think I brought politics into it?   Is it political to take offense to the inference that women need to be taught about the ramifications of abortion?  AND by who?   Women are well aware what having an abortion means..  we don't need to have men tell us.  I can't help it if it's predominantly the Repubican party that thinks we need guidance..


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## Falcon (May 28, 2015)

Don't get your undies in a twist.  I'm only answering Glinda's query;  "What are your thoughts re: abortion?"


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## Josiah (May 28, 2015)

How about a comment from the OPer?


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## Cookie (May 28, 2015)

I am pro choice.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

I am also pro choice. My sixteen year old friend in high school almost died from an illegal abortion. It left her sterile, and she was never the same. She died of alcoholism related illness at the age of forty-five.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> I have to agree with you Falcon. Many women using this as birth control, instead of using proper birth control methods.
> 
> I just read on F/B were a baby was aborted and was born alive and breathing, the nurses cleaned it up and were in the process of taking care of it, when the doctor returned and chocked the baby to death.



That I would take with a grain of salt.  Highly unbelievable.


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## Falcon (May 28, 2015)

Thanks Mickey.  I knew you would. We think alike, don't we?  Glad to see you here.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> There is always a doubter. Check it out before you comment.



What would I check Mickey?  Do you have a credible link.  A third person facebook statement isn't credible.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

When oh when will this insulting paternalism end? Thank you so much, Jim for getting it. We appreciate you.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> When oh when will this insulting paternalism end? Thank you so much, Jim for getting it. We appreciate you.



You are welcome Mermaid lady.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

Thanks also to the other gentlemen on this thread who voiced their support.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> A smart man like you should not need any help to check it out. And I am SURE that this post was credible ..



Thank you for the link.  I'll read it.  OKay.  Thank you.  So in the 1970's a Canadian doctor committed what would be legally a homicide in the United States..  It was a horrible thing to do.  I see he was acquitted which in my mind is as bad  ad the act it's self.  Mickey, next time if you post the link with your post it might be a lot better for the reader to believe and become familiar with the facts.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

There will always be bad apples. I fail to see how  the horrendous actions of one Canadian doctor impact the concept of abortion as a viable alternative for women.


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## AprilT (May 28, 2015)

From reading this article I've just read in addition to the posted one, it wasn't so cut and dry, as far as I see it.  Quite terrible what happened, but, more to it than and evil doctor committing homicide, more like mercy killing, maybe, at the point of which he may have stepped in, still a horrific act, but, I'm not so sure, I would have labeled him a monster without really trying to finding out more.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-02/news/vw-1024_1_orange-county

Either way as others have said, hardly a reason to use this case to show as an example to take away a woman's rights to choose what she does with her body.


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## QuickSilver (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> There is always a doubter. Check it out before you comment.



If you are going to post this nonsense... then you need to provide a credible link... and not some one sided anti-abortion propaganda rag.  As said.. there was much more to it.. and shouldn't have been spun the way it was.


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## QuickSilver (May 28, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> When oh when will this insulting paternalism end? Thank you so much, Jim for getting it. We appreciate you.



You know what IMMEDIATELY makes me stop paying attention?  When a MAN decides HE is going to lecture on this topic.  Makes me sick.


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## Kitties (May 28, 2015)

Like there are not enough people on the planet? I don't care if someone gets an abortion.

Quicksilver, completely off topic but I applied for a medicare review job and just got an email stating I would not be considered. Figured I didn't qualify but I'm still a little bummed. I'll keep looking.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> I
> 
> If you do not wish to have a child, than use birth control. DON'T make the rest of us pay for your pleasure.....



Has this cost you personally Mickey?  Are you simply against the idea of pregnancy termination?  Remember, you are Canadian and this forum has members all over the world.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

Really, Mickey? What about rape? Stop blaming women, men have as responsibility to use birth control as women. No glove, no love.


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## AprilT (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> I
> 
> If you do not wish to have a child, than use birth control. DON'T make the rest of us pay for your pleasure.....



If I?  Do tell, how often have you been at my past GYN appointments to have such intell?  If I did, would or wouldn't, I wouldn't share such info with you.  I'm sure you have a number of life issues the rest of humanity would like not to finance l, imagine.   

Long time poster with a new name I imagine, I wonder which one.  OOPS!  Didn't mean to say that out loud.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

AprilT said:


> If I?  Do tell, how often have you been at my past GYN appointments to have such intell?  If I did, would or wouldn't, I wouldn't share such info with you.  I'm sure you have a number of life issues the rest of humanity would like not to finance l, imagine.
> 
> Long time poster with a new name I imagine, I wonder which one.



I think you are on it April.  No new member comes on willing to insult like this person has.


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## Susie (May 28, 2015)

Abortion may be absolutely legal, but "I feel", it's morally despicable.
If you don't want or like children, take the necessary precautions or totally abstain.
But as 'Falcon' already explained, it's different if the fetus is not developing normally.
To me children will always be the most precious living beings in our world.
They are not "throw-away" items!!


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

I have my doubts this individual is Canadian, as well. In this country, abortion has been available since I was in my twenties. The majority of Canucks don't foam at the mouth like this person. I sense hostility and fanaticism. Who is behind the smoke and mirrors, I wonder?


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> Thank you, I am a new member,but as such I still can have my say regarding this situation..
> I see that some of  you get a little grumpy when challenged by someone who does have the information needed to discuss this subject.
> 
> That said as my mom used to say (If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen)..
> ...




If you are suggesting I leave this forum for MY opinions, it isn't gonna happen.  Your Mom was correct however.  Mickey, we have all sorts of opinions here.  Yours are as welcome as anyones.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

We women tend to get grumpy when a man attempts to tell us what to do with our bodies. Honestly, are you really a Canadian? Please say it isn't so. Lol. I assure you, my American, British, and Australian friends, this individual does not reflect the opinions held by the majority of Canucks. I suspect we may have a troll in our midst. Call out the dogs, Jim, lol.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

This post is one, like the others that we can walk away having had our say and not harbor any animosity toward one another.  I, for one shall do just that.  Peace.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> Me as well, but I will keep a keen eye on you...



You do that.  You may learn something.


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## Warrigal (May 28, 2015)

Settle down gentlemen. This is primarily an issue for women because for too long men had all the say about it.

IMO the only thing I want to hear from men is how they have felt if they have had to suffer the loss of one of their unborn children.

I contemplated having a abortion when I was 19 years old and unmarried. I am glad that at that time it was illegal and my then boyfriend and I decided to marry and face the responsibility of raising our child. She is now one of our greatest blessings and I am very glad that she was not terminated just because she was inconvenient. 

That said, I make no judgement on any woman who decides to seek a termination. Women don't choose abortion IMO. Sometimes it is the only choice available in their particular circumstances. They decide to have one but would prefer to have better choices.


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## Glinda (May 28, 2015)

Josiah said:


> How about a comment from the OPer?



Yes, I'm happy to provide my opinion.  I am pro-choice.  But I tried to frame the issue with several questions because I think it's more complex than just "for" or "against".

Here are some (certainly not all) of the other issues and my opinion:

Do males have the right to dictate this policy for females?  From one perspective, it is frustrating and perhaps infuriating that official U.S. policy has been formed largely by males.  And yet, it was an all male Supreme Court that decided Roe v. Wade, a decision I support.  There will always be some males who make a genuine effort to empathize.  There will also be those who use the issue as yet another way to exercise power over women.

Should there be an assumption that women must be scolded and lectured about "using abortion for birth control"?  I believe the percentage of women who will act irresponsibly in this manner is so low, it is truly insulting to make this assumption.

Should someone else's moral compulsion, perhaps motivated by their religion, be permitted to dictate my personal, private decision to obtain an abortion?  Absolutely not.  Those who are against abortion are free to follow their own doctrine or beliefs.  Likewise, I will follow mine, not theirs.

Should a woman's decision to have an abortion be kept between herself, her doctor and, if married, her husband?  Yes.  

Thank you all for expressing your opinions, whether you agree with me or not.  I have to confess that I looked at the various threads this morning and decided we needed a really controversial thread to liven things up today.  Did I succeed??


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## Louis (May 28, 2015)

The choice is between the woman and her doctor. Although do I detest people who use abortion as a means of birth control.

Can't we ever shed these archaic laws? If men could get pregnant...abortion would not even be an issue.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

Glinda, you certainly livened things up!


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Is mickey male or female?  The profile is blank.


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## Debby (May 28, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Ahhhhh.... poor stupid women must be schooled on what it means to be pregnant or exactly what having an abortion means.   How in the world would we ever be able to function if there were no men to teach us..   Seriously...
> 
> As for using an abortion as birth control?   Another Right wing mythology.   Have you ever HAD an abortion?  I have had to have D&C's and Uterine biopsies, and believe me those are no walk in the park... I imagine an abortion to be much the same procedure.   Plus abortions are not free... nor are they cheap...  they are painful... and they are expensive for most women..  But then again... most of us are to stupid to realize that.




Do you remember when that woman Sherry Shepherd used to be on the View?  I believe she has admitted to 'more abortions than she would like to count' and somewhere I've heard the number being seven,  which would suggest that some women do use abortions as a birth control method.


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## mitchezz (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> Here is my final say on this matter!
> 
> 
> I am not against abortions for rape/ incest/ etc. These women deserve our compassion and help, god bless them.



So you're not actually against abortion but rather you're against the idea that women choose for themselves whether to abort or not.


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## AZ Jim (May 28, 2015)

Mickey of Canada said:


> why are you horny ??? Lol



You know. you're getting on my last nerve.  I am putting you on ignore.


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## mitchezz (May 28, 2015)

I'm very fortunate that I have never had an unwanted pregnancy. However, several women near and dear to me have had abortions and I can assure you that none of them took the decision lightly and they certainly didn't regard it as a convenient method of birth control.


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

I also pay taxes which support our health care system, but do not feel the need to discriminate towards any group of individuals who may need care. Clearly, for some, women are still second class citizens, too weak, lustful, or stupid to control their own bodies. Fortunately, this attitude is in the minority, at least in my country. As for the uncalled comments re 'horny', that indicates a tendency toward misogyny, and a willingness to reduce this thread to a base common denominator. On behalf of my sisters, ick!


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## Shalimar (May 28, 2015)

Thank you, Mitchezz, that has been my experience as well.


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## Butterfly (May 28, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I feel the same as I've always felt..  It's a legal procedure.. and should be only between a woman and her doctor.  I also feel that it there should be no questions asked up until the time of viability.  After that only to protect the life of the Mother or to alleviate the pain of carrying a nonviable or dead fetus..  Late term abortions are so incredibly rare anyway unless for that reason.    To hear the Right talk,  thousands of 7 and 8 month pregnant women are waddling into an abortion clinic and saying "Dang! I knew there was something I was meaning to do.. but just didn't get around to it until now"....   That is ridiculous.



I agree completely.  It's a private decision and one the government has no business sticking its nose into.

I also agree that the anti-abortionists vastly inflate the number of late term abortions.  Why would a woman wait so long to decide?  It just makes it a bigger procedure, and I would imagine it is harder for the body to adjust afterwards.  To my knowledge, most women I know who have decided on abortion have it done before anyone else even knows they are pregnant.   I'm sure it is not an easy decision to make, and I'm grateful I never faced that decision.  I understand it is not the most pleasant procedure, either.

As to using it as a regular form of birth control, why would a woman put herself through that when all she has to do is take pills or utilize one of the various forms of birth control on the market?  Makes no sense at all.


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## QuickSilver (May 29, 2015)

Debby said:


> Do you remember when that woman Sherry Shepherd used to be on the View?  I believe she has admitted to 'more abortions than she would like to count' and somewhere I've heard the number being seven,  which would suggest that some women do use abortions as a birth control method.




Oh well then.... since SHERRY SHEPHERD is irresponisble....  let's take the choice away from ALL women..  makes perfect sense..   May I ask why it's anyone's business what Sherry Shepherd did?   OR why you even care?


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## Ralphy1 (May 29, 2015)

My, my, I agree, like freedom of speech, choice is paramount...


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## Warrigal (May 29, 2015)

Except when it's Hobson's choice.


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## Ralphy1 (May 29, 2015)

Yes, and that certainly applied to the draft in my youth, nobody thought of going to Canada in those days...


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## Shalimar (May 29, 2015)

Please, what is Hobson's choice?


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## Warrigal (May 29, 2015)

Hobson's choice is really no choice at all. At best it is take it or leave it.


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## Robusta (May 29, 2015)

When I become a 16 year old poverty stricken pregnant girl, I will have an opinion that worth listening to!
As I am likely to remain an elderly middle class white guy,I have no basis on which to form a valid opinion.
Suffice to say if the RTL party endorses your candidacy ,you will not be receiving my vote,no matter how attractive you may be otherwise.


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## Shalimar (May 29, 2015)

Thank you Robusta!


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## applecruncher (May 31, 2015)

Debby said:


> Do you remember when that woman Sherry Shepherd used to be on the View? I believe she has admitted to 'more abortions than she would like to count' and somewhere I've heard the number being seven, which would suggest that some women do use abortions as a birth control method.




Sherri Shepherd is an idiot.  I remember her flapping has jaws about all her abortions and about a lot of other nonsense that she would have been better off not talking about.  She is hardly representative of......well, anybody or anything.


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## QuickSilver (May 31, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> Sherri Shepherd is an idiot.  I remember her flapping has jaws about all her abortions and about a lot of other nonsense that she would have been better off not talking about.  She is hardly representative of......well, anybody or anything.



What is unfortunate is that she gives the fuel for the anti-choice crowd... who will hold her up as an example, when she is hardly representative of the vast majority of women.   She just needs to STFU.


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## Butterfly (Jun 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I feel the same as I've always felt..  It's a legal procedure.. and should be only between a woman and her doctor.  I also feel that it there should be no questions asked up until the time of viability.  After that only to protect the life of the Mother or to alleviate the pain of carrying a nonviable or dead fetus..  Late term abortions are so incredibly rare anyway unless for that reason.    To hear the Right talk,  thousands of 7 and 8 month pregnant women are waddling into an abortion clinic and saying "Dang! I knew there was something I was meaning to do.. but just didn't get around to it until now"....   That is ridiculous.



QS I just saw on a news program (sorry, but don't have a good cite) that less than 1.5 percent of abortions are late term, and of those the vast majority are of those are undertaken because of something terribly wrong with the fetus that wasn't discovered until late in the pregnancy.  Additionally, there are VERY few clinics in the US that actually DO late term abortion (only a handful, less than 5), they are very expensive, and even at those clinics who do, doctors don't just agree to do them on someone who walks in and says "I've decided I don't want this baby."    SO, as you said, the Right is greatly exaggerating the number of these that are actually occurring.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 3, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> QS I just saw on a news program (sorry, but don't have a good cite) that less than 1.5 percent of abortions are late term, and of those the vast majority are of those are undertaken because of something terribly wrong with the fetus that wasn't discovered until late in the pregnancy.  Additionally, there are VERY few clinics in the US that actually DO late term abortion (only a handful, less than 5), they are very expensive, and even at those clinics who do, doctors don't just agree to do them on someone who walks in and says "I've decided I don't want this baby."    SO, as you said, the Right is greatly exaggerating the number of these that are actually occurring.



Yes.. this is true...  but that doesn't make good press for the anti-choice crowd..  They don't want abortion at ANY stage of pregnancy to be legal.. so to make people think there are lines of women with viable normal babies having them diced up and extracted makes their case so much more intense.   When.. it simply isn't true.   Like anything else, one can site one or two cases of women abusing the right... Like Sherri Shephard  and make it seem like hoards of women are having monthy abortions, when it simply isn't happening.

The fact remains... although some of our male lawmakers haven't caught on....   that women are really pretty savvy on pregnancy... We understand our bodies... we understand what it means to be pregnant and we really DO know what an abortion does..  We also know about birth control and how to prevent pregnancy, but sometimes despite all precautions, things fail and we become pregnant.or we are raped, or the baby not viable.    It insults he holy hell out of me to have male legislators imply that we are all a bunch of morons who have no ability to get a grasp on this whole process.   It's so completely condescending that it makes me sick.


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## Debby (Jun 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh well then.... since SHERRY SHEPHERD is irresponisble....  let's take the choice away from ALL women..  makes perfect sense..   May I ask why it's anyone's business what Sherry Shepherd did?   OR why you even care?




Did I say take 'choice' away?  No.  I simply replied to your statement that no one uses abortion as a birth control method.  And frankly, if there's one, there's more.  And if Ms. Shepherd goes public with that info, then it's there to quote in a discussion.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> Did I say take 'choice' away?  No.  I simply replied to your statement that no one uses abortion as a birth control method.  And frankly, if there's one, there's more.  And if Ms. Shepherd goes public with that info, then it's there to quote in a discussion.



So then what point was there to bring up Sherry Shepherd?  She is hardly the norm is she.


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## Debby (Jun 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> We women tend to get grumpy when a man attempts to tell us what to do with our bodies. Honestly, are you really a Canadian? Please say it isn't so. Lol. I assure you, my American, British, and Australian friends, this individual does not reflect the opinions held by the majority of Canucks. I suspect we may have a troll in our midst. Call out the dogs, Jim, lol.




He's entitled to hold a different opinion and I think deserves the same respect that we would ask for if our opinions didn't match up with everyone else's.  

As a matter of fact, I used to be actively against all abortion but that changed (with exceptions) when I found out that prior to about 24-26 weeks, the nervous system isn't functional.  My original fear was that there would be horrendous pain and suffering involved.  But apparently that isn't the case until you get past the point when the nervous system is functional.  So early abortions, if needed, but late term, no.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> He's entitled to hold a different opinion and I think deserves the same respect that we would ask for if our opinions didn't match up with everyone else's.



That's true... but since it's a discussion forum, how do we let you know when you opinions are wrong?  lol!


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## Shalimar (Jun 4, 2015)

Actually, Debby, I believe he has been banned.


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## Debby (Jun 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So then what point was there to bring up Sherry Shepherd?  She is hardly the norm is she.




Because you said 'nobody uses it as a birth control' and because even just one person shows that statement is incorrect.  And because I used it as a birth control method once but it was in the first few weeks.


Qhote= 'That's true... but since it's a discussion forum, how do we let you know when you opinions are wrong? lol!'     We can disagree politely and not get hostile.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Actually, Debby, I believe he has been banned.




Ahhhh  that's right.. that one....  Many spotted him for a previous member coming back with a new name.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> Because you said 'nobody uses it as a birth control' and because even just one person shows that statement is incorrect.  And because I used it as a birth control method once but it was in the first few weeks.
> 
> 
> 'That's true... but since it's a discussion forum, how do we let you know when you opinions are wrong? lol!'    We can disagree politely and not get hostile.



Seriously Debby..  You have not seen me hostile.


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## Shalimar (Jun 4, 2015)

QS, out of curiosity, did anyone know who he really was?


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## Debby (Jun 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Actually, Debby, I believe he has been banned.




Well here's hoping he wasn't banned because his opinion was different or because he was a man who had an opinion on abortion that didn't match the majority.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> QS, out of curiosity, did anyone know who he really was?



No, I never found out..   I think his IP address matched and he was caught.


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## Shalimar (Jun 4, 2015)

Debby, I believe he was banned for being rude to members, something quite different.


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## Shalimar (Jun 4, 2015)

Thanks, QS, all I knew was that he certainly wasn't a Canuck. Wrong speech patterns. I wonder who his sidekick was? I guess we will never know. Lol.


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## Debby (Jun 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Debby, I believe he was banned for being rude to members, something quite different.



Glad to hear that it was a personality issue because if it was a difference of opinions, I'd likely have to consider my days here numbered  based on some of my comments in the past.


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## Shalimar (Jun 4, 2015)

Debby, re banned over opinions, I think you would have to wait in line for that one. Many, many posters ahead of you, IMHO.lol.


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## LynnD (Jun 4, 2015)

I'm pro choice, doesn't mean that I would have one.....I don't know because it was never an issue for me, I had 2 children and then used birth control.

but I'm glad I had the choice if I needed it.  I believe in doing whatever I want with my body as long as I don't hurt others and that includes assisted suicide if I would ever be terminal and in severe pain.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 5, 2015)

LynnD,

That's the big problem ,why is it always women that have to use birth control?


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## LynnD (Jun 5, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> LynnD,
> 
> That's the big problem ,why is it always women that have to use birth control?



I agree Davey, but that's the way my husband was.  I did get my tubes tied later because no way would he get a vasectomy.


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## Cookie (Jun 5, 2015)

Women end up holding the bag, so to speak, on the birth control issue, as many men are reluctant or unwilling to take any responsibility in that department, although when it comes to protecting themselves from STD, they will certainly take the trouble.  Its an age old problem, as women are the ones who carry the child and certain men will simply walk away from the problem, leaving the pregnant girl to cope.


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## Glinda (Jun 5, 2015)

Fortunately the issue of pregnancy is in the past for me.  But I would not have trusted any man to be responsible for birth control even if they'd had a pill for men.  Same goes for those who claim to have had a vasectomy.  I protect myself.  I do not rely on someone else who is  probably thinking with an organ other than his brain.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 5, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> LynnD,
> 
> That's the big problem ,why is it always women that have to use birth control?




Because women have the biggest investment in procreation.. we have the most to lose... so the smart woman relies on herself to protect herself.


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## Shalimar (Jun 5, 2015)

Most of the men in my life were fine with using birth control. I chose to be responsible for my own body. Ultimately, I became allergic to all forms of birth control except condoms, so it was quite simple.


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## LynnD (Jun 5, 2015)

You were lucky...I didn't do well on the pill and that's why I chose tubal ligation after my second child...didn't want more children anyway.


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## Cookie (Jun 5, 2015)

But I'm curious, how did our mothers do it, they often only had 1 or 2 kids?  Abstaining? I think not.


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## LynnD (Jun 5, 2015)

My mom had 4 but with many years in between.  I'm the oldest and the youngest is 49.

i have no idea, I know the pill wasn't around....abortion was illegal.....condoms I'm guessing.


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## Josiah (Jun 5, 2015)

Hey what's this beating up on men about not being responsible for birth control? We had a thread a while back about vasectomies and a large proportion of the active male members of this forum had had their tubes tied.


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## Falcon (Jun 5, 2015)

We had two girls.  When our identical twin boys were born, I had a vasectomy.  From then on we had GREAT sex; no more condoms, diaphragms, pills,
coitus interruptus or any other contraceptive means.  Just great sex and....NO  MORE  KIDS !


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## Shalimar (Jun 5, 2015)

Josiah, while I applaud the men on this forum who have had vasectomies, there are many men whose masculinity/virility is connected to their capacity to father children regardless of their circumstances. It may seem incomprehensible to someone of your progressive views, but they are out there in droves. One of my former clients broke up his marriage primarily over this issue.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 5, 2015)

I've always had great sex.  Someday I want to try it when I'm not alone.  layful:


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## LynnD (Jun 5, 2015)

I'm afraid to reply to that......


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## AZ Jim (Jun 5, 2015)

LynnD said:


> I'm afraid to reply to that......



No, you're just too discreet.


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## Falcon (Jun 5, 2015)

You should Jim.  It's much better.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 5, 2015)

:thumbsup1:


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## Cookie (Jun 5, 2015)

Josiah, and any other men who are feeling picked on, I am not slamming all men about birth control responsibility, just some or certain men, as you will notice if you re-read my post. Nevertheless, men were not trained in this way, as in your youth as in my own there was no sex-ed in schools and women had not yet been liberated and of course no pill yet.  There were diaphrams, but it was usually only married women who could get them from their doctors.   

In fact, I doubt if men in general used birth control all that much (some kind of condoms existed I believe) in our parents generation or had vasectomies and I doubt if there are all that many who have them (vasectomies) in this day and age either. It has always been women's problem, hence so many children in Catholic families and perhaps no children (due to no sex perhaps?) in Protestant.  Heck, I don't really know, I can only guess, but surely the info is out there in cyberspace.


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## LynnD (Jun 5, 2015)

Although I loved my husband dearly and miss him still, he was old school when it came to things like birth control and are you kidding...him getting a vasectomy...never in a million years.


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## applecruncher (Jun 5, 2015)

Re: vasectomies

Some guys are skittish or for whatever reason just plain refuse to get a vasectomy.

I know of some guys who got vasectomies in their 30s or 40s once they were certain they either didn’t want children at all, OR that they/their wife didn’t want any more children.

I also know of guys who had a child/children, didn’t particularly want any more, but refused to get a vasectomy and they weren’t careful about other birth control…….it was left up to the woman 100%. (I was involved with such a man and we were in our mid 30s.)  I don't know when vasectomies became available, but I was seeing someone in 1970 who'd had one.

But cases such as John Edwards/Rielle Hunter puzzle me. He was having an affair (probably not the first), not using birth control, got the woman pregnant (which resulted in her being set for life). He was 54, she was in her mid 40s. Why the heck didn’t John Edwards ever get a vasectomy? :shrug: He had several children, and such a scandal could and DID end his political career. :wtf: 

Arnold Schwarzenegger fathered his household employee's child when he was 50. He would have been another good candidate for a vasectomy.

Stupid!


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## Louis (Jun 5, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I've always had great sex.  Someday I want to try it when I'm not alone.  layful:


:lofl:

Hey Jim, when our sexy little Canuck mermaid sees your new swimming avatar she's gonna be migrating south...heading for Arizona.


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## Shalimar (Jun 5, 2015)

Louis!!


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## Butterfly (Jun 5, 2015)

Men just don't seem to worry much about unwanted pregnancy (at least not like women do!).   I always took care of myself, because I didn't trust men to take responsibility for birth control.  Although of course it is no longer a problem for me, I still wouldn't trust a man to do it.  There is just SO much more at stake for a woman.  A man can just walk away, a woman can't.


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## Robusta (Jun 6, 2015)

Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.


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## AprilT (Jun 6, 2015)

Robusta said:


> Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
> Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.



Fair or not, I'm sure some men who are paying exorbitant child support payments might beg to differ after some cute little bundle of joy appeared at their door some nine months later or even 1-15 later from a one night stand or other encounter.  Court imposed payments happen all the time.  So, you surely just as much will be getting pregnant.


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## Shalimar (Jun 6, 2015)

Ah, April, the voice of reality/sanity. Too bad guys. No glove, no love. Rrrraaassppberry. I have no sympathy for men who do not take precautions. My son had a box of condoms(bought by me) in his room at sixteen. That way, if he was ever accused of impregnating anyone, pfuilll. He knew his childhood would end if he became a father. He was and is highly responsible. Besides, guys, remember Aids?


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## Shalimar (Jun 6, 2015)

If a man is not prepared to accept the consequences of unprotected sex, then he should embrace masturbation or celibacy. The days of a free ride are gone.


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## Cookie (Jun 6, 2015)

Robusta said:


> Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
> Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.



True, you won't be the one getting pregnant, but it is your body part that entered into the equation, remember?  Either take responsibility or don't throw your sperm around.


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## Jackie22 (Jun 6, 2015)

Robusta said:


> Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
> Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.



LOL....unbelievable.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 6, 2015)

Robusta said:


> Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
> Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.




HAHAHAHA..   Until that court Summons appears on your doorstep... then let's talk "responsibility"   That DNA proves you are the daddy... better be ready to pay for 18 years and beyond if the kid wants to go to college..


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## Shalimar (Jun 6, 2015)

Honestly, Even if some men still feel this way, normally they are savvy enough to hide it. Wow, hello, the nineteen fifties would like their attitude back. Lol.


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## Robusta (Jun 6, 2015)

I knew that would hit the fan!
But seriously,When you are ultimately the one that has the biological capability of giving birth to another living being,why oh why, would you, under any circumstance relinquish your control of that function?
 Like I said right,  wrong, morality, fairness, social norms and expectations are constructs having nothing to do with the reality of being faced with the fact that you, not him, is pregnant.


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## merlin (Jun 7, 2015)

Robusta said:


> Ok,Just back up a second!  Why the hell should the responsibility for birth control fall on me or any man?
> Just for practicality sakes, MY God I am not the one getting pregnant. Sure it would be nice if your prospective stud was considerate,but! Plain and simple the ultimate responsibility falls on the woman. Fair, right, wrong, has nothing to do with it.



Yes I agree a woman should take care of herself in this area, but what modern self respecting woman, would want to be involved sexually with the type of man you describe?


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## merlin (Jun 7, 2015)

I am a bit late coming to this thread, but to give another perspective, in Russia abortion was the main form of birth control during the Soviet era. The majority of women had several abortions during their life. Many of Lisa's friends had in excess of twenty. The other interesting thing is that there is in general no emotion attached to the abortion, the woman sees it as a fact of life and has no regrets. This implies that an emotional reaction to having an abortion is a learned cultural response?

The current problem here is the Orthodox church is gradually taking over state moral affairs, with Putin's blessing. They are bringing in laws to charge heavily for abortions which will affect poor people of course. They have already censored the theatre and cinema, where all swear words are removed, its going back a century in many ways. The gay community doesn't stand a chance at all.


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## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2015)

Merlin, bravo, I cannot imagine any woman of my acquaintance wanting any ****** involvement with a man who espoused such an antideluvian perspective re ******/reproductive responsibility. This attitude goes far beyond a woman taking care of herself. Stud, indeed. Creeps me out, therapist that I am.


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## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2015)

Merlin, fascinating sociological slant on guilt as a learned response to abortion. Interesting also that Putin, former KGB thug,supports many of the Orthodox teachings. I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that the Russian priests tended to be arrogant, why do you think that is?


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## Butterfly (Jun 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> HAHAHAHA..   Until that court Summons appears on your doorstep... then let's talk "responsibility"   That DNA proves you are the daddy... better be ready to pay for 18 years and beyond if the kid wants to go to college..



Yup!  Geez, it's not like the woman gets herself pregnant -- ultimate responsibility on the woman, my rear end!  I doubt child support is very pleasant to cough up ever month just because you can't be bothered about birth control.   If I were a male, I'd be being VERY careful.   I believe it is the moral (and legal) responsibility of both parties, but I just never trusted the man to do it.  Still wouldn't.


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## merlin (Jun 7, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Merlin, fascinating sociological slant on guilt as a learned response to abortion. Interesting also that Putin, former KGB thug,supports many of the Orthodox teachings. I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that the Russian priests tended to be arrogant, why do you think that is?



Its about control Shali, the Orthodox church here has a great deal of power it being such a religious country, Putin is basically a weak man inside, and is terrified of losing power/control, (as most leaders are) so he hitches a ride on the church. There is a video clip somewhere that Lisa showed me a while ago which shows a priest going up to Putin to kiss his hand, and Putin hastily pulls his hand away in disgust.


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## koala (Jun 7, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Settle down gentlemen. This is primarily an issue for women because for too long men had all the say about it.
> 
> IMO the only thing I want to hear from men is how they have felt if they have had to suffer the loss of one of their unborn children.
> 
> ...



Dame Warrigal,IMHO, that is not quite right about it being "primarily an issue for women". It takes 2 to tango and the man has some rights when the question is raised about aborting the child, his child also.
2 people were a part of the act,2 people were unprotected, a baby is formed so both people have the right to make the decision, not just the women.


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## koala (Jun 7, 2015)

merlin said:


> Yes I agree a woman should take care of herself in this area, but what modern self respecting woman, would want to be involved sexually with the type of man you describe?



Merlin very well said. 
Some thought has to be put in train before 2 humans climb into a bed as to the end result. Both must think before the next day when it is all over and too late.


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## Shalimar (Jun 7, 2015)

Well put Koala.


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## Warrigal (Jun 7, 2015)

koala said:


> Dame Warrigal,IMHO, that is not quite right about it being "primarily an issue for women". It takes 2 to tango and the man has some rights when the question is raised about aborting the child, his child also.
> 2 people were a part of the act,2 people were unprotected, a baby is formed so both people have the right to make the decision, not just the women.



I think I covered the feeling of the man who loses his unborn child. Grandparents, if they are aware of the pregnancy, also feel that they have lost something. However, at the last post, the woman must have the final say. Forcing her to carry a baby to full term has, too often in the past, been used to subjugate women.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 7, 2015)

merlin said:


> Its about control Shali, the Orthodox church here has a great deal of power it being such a religious country, Putin is basically a weak man inside, and is terrified of losing power/control, (as most leaders are) so he hitches a ride on the church. There is a video clip somewhere that Lisa showed me a while ago which shows a priest going up to Putin to kiss his hand, and Putin hastily pulls his hand away in disgust.



Could it be Putin has learned from the USA?  He sees how easy it is to control people by dragging religeon into politics?


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## Warrigal (Jun 7, 2015)

Just my opinion but the Russian Orthodox Church was once the state religion of Russia. It was a symbol of the Russian nation and supported the Czars and the nobility. After the revolution it was abolished because the new regime didn't trust it. Since Glasnost it has gradually emerged from the shadows but is threatened by the encroachment of other faiths such as Roman Catholicism and evangelical Protestantism. I suspect a deal between Putin and the Orthodox leadership. He is effectively the new czar and the church is supporting him. At least, that is how I see it.


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## merlin (Jun 7, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Just my opinion but the Russian Orthodox Church was once the state religion of Russia. It was a symbol of the Russian nation and supported the Czars and the nobility. After the revolution it was abolished because the new regime didn't trust it. Since Glasnost it has gradually emerged from the shadows but is threatened by the encroachment of other faiths such as Roman Catholicism and evangelical Protestantism.* I suspect a deal between Putin and the Orthodox leadership. He is effectively the new czar and the church is supporting him. At least, that is how I see it.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Yes Dame I have just asked Lisa's opinion and she strongly agrees with the latter highlighted comment, (and probably the history but that is relying on history books), but says there is very little support for Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, though possibly Islam could become a threat in the future.
> 
> Putin uses "God" a lot in his recent speeches, and they sound to me, a bit like some of the George Bush speeches about doing God's work.


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