# When Children Abandon Their Parents - Sensitive



## Warrigal

This seems to be a growing problem. I have known several women who have become estranged from their daughters and it is a source of deep sadness.

This article set me to thinking about this modern phenomenon. Or is it so modern? Has this been something that has always happened to some parents? For example, migration to the other side of the world is a form of separation but not necessarily abandonment. Is moving to the other side of the continent part of the problem. It isn't always the children who move away. Quite often it is the parents.

What do you think, but try not to be judgmental because we haven't all walked in these moccassins.



> *When children abandon their parents*
> 
> *Posted By Kate Chaundy | Dec 01, 2013*
> 
> “I haven’t heard from your brother in months… again,” sighed my mother.
> “I have been trying to find out if he will be coming over on Christmas day but he just ignores my calls as usual”.
> “Have you heard from him? Is he okay? I just don’t know what I have done?” she asks.
> 
> This is a regular occurrence for mum. Luckily she has two other children my younger brother and I who do stay in contact regularly and will be coming home for Christmas. But I can see the heartbreak in her eyes when she speaks about her always absent first-born son.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are so many similar stories of this epidemic… Children who abandon their parents in later life…
> 
> Judy is a 67-year-old widower with three children, five grandchildren but hasn’t seen any of them for years.
> “I gave birth to three children, but now they are strangers to me. I breaks my heart and I miss them terribly.”
> “I have racked my mind to try to work out what I have done that could have justified the abandonment. I am at a loss to what I’ve done or said.”
> 
> Judy has now given up trying to contact her children but sill diligently sends presents each year to the grandchildren on their birthday.
> 
> Recently a newspaper columnist wrote about a mother’s isolation from her adult children. There was an overwhelming response across Australia from older parents. They said that they were both bewildered and saddened by the strained relations with their adult children who they brought up as best they could.
> 
> So what is the reason for this epidemic? Does it stem from a specific incident, an argument, a criticism taken the wrong way, the disapproval of a new partner, or perhaps it can be from some unresolved tensions from earlier years?
> Or perhaps expectations of parenting have expanded dramatically. Today we see images of perfect families in advertising and these could lead to envy and deprivation if childhood memories do not live up to these ideals. Perhaps the new generation has become too self involved…
> 
> Jane who grew up in the 60s jokes “we were grateful if our parents fed, sheltered us and sent us to school, our kids got everything and yet they still want more”.
> 
> One father of three children tells of how he and his wife have been cut off and ignored by their eldest son who is now a highly successful businessman. On mother’s day he refused to visit, “We received an hour-long rant on all the things we’d done wrong as parents, including once driving away from him when he was naughty. We did this to all of our children at one stage or another and was quite effective. It taught them a lesson and made them behave better. They turned out ok and we were just trying to do the best we could as parents at the time”.
> 
> Some mothers think that childcare might have impacted early bonding. According to my mum “I put him in daycare when he was two and I think he resented that. I will never forget the image of looking out of the train window an seeing my son grasping at the fence of the childcare centre watching my train pull away, it broke my heart”.
> 
> Perhaps it has to do with today’s society, which is busier than ever before, and the shifting dynamic of the family unit. Families are now no longer based on biological connections and we now have more mixed and blended families, gay parenting and friendship groups that converge to become todays family unit.
> 
> The tradition of going home for a Sunday roast and other rituals seems to be dissipating in this time of loosening family bonds.
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the way we handle conflict? How many criticisms and arguments are held in family units with so many things unresolved, left to stew with resentment over the years.
> 
> I have an aunt who had the responsibility of looking after my late grandmothers incredibly rare and sentimental jewellery including all of my grandfathers war medals. One night, her second level, inner city unit was broken into and all the items were stolen. Her daughter (my cousin) who had continually been asking her mother to buy a safe to put the items in, or let somebody else look after them with a more secure home was livid and a massive argument followed. The argument questioned her parenting and brought up years of unresolved conflict. Today their relationship is incredibly strained and my aunt rarely gets to see her grandchildren.
> 
> For whatever reason this lack of interest from some children in reaching out to their parents is having a real impact. Some mothers  feel a lack of identity when abandoned by their children. Motherhood was such a large part of their lives and when it is gone there is a big hole.
> 
> Ruby who has also had also been abandoned by her daughter has decided to give up contacting her children and grandchildren. “I just started to feel like a stalker and have now decided to get on with my life. Of course it still hurts, but I keep myself busy. I have joined a quilt club and practice yoga and dancing,” she said.
> 
> Ruby recalls with angst her own mother who she left in England to migrate to Australia.
> “I used to receive letters from her all the time, letting me know how much she missed me and how sad she was not seeing the children grow up. I now know how she feels”.
> 
> “Sometimes that is just the way life turns out and we just have to make the most of what we have,” she said.
> 
> http://www.startsatsixty.com.au/blogs/kate-chaundy/when-children-abandon-their-parents


----------



## SeaBreeze

Even if the children move far away, they could and should always keep contact with their parents.  When my mother lived on her own, and started to deteriorating health due to aging, diabetes, etc., my sister insisted on moving her to another state, so she could live with her husband and daughter.  My mother didn't want to be a burden on her family, and she also wanted to remain independent.  Since that wasn't an option in her case, my sister insisted, and my mother spend her remaining years being cared for in my sister's home.  That's the way it should be.

When my husbands parent's fell ill, we moved both of them in with us.  Before that we kept in constant contact, and saw them frequently to help with shopping, chores, repairs and doctor visits.  I don't think this is a new thing, I believe a lot of older parents are left alone and neglected by their children, they must feel very sad about that situation to be sure.  Many of them sacrifice so much for their children, only to be tossed aside when they need them most.


----------



## Diwundrin

Is this really anything new?  How far back would you like to go?  History is full of infanticides and fratricides deadly family feuds etc and bad blood between siblings over parent's favouritism started with Kane 'n Abel.  Then there's the Prodigal Son yarn, that was all a good while ago now.

I can remember old men and women who used to talk all the time about their children whom they hadn't seen or heard from for decades when I was just a kid.  I didn't think much of it until I heard some of their stories being discussed among my own family and then the sadness of it hit me.  For one old girl it was perfectly understandable as even her neighbours wouldn't speak to her, but of the others there didn't seem to be anything different about them that would chase kids away.  Some of course had moved overseas, but still, a letter wouldn't have killed them to write.

I still keep meeting, women mainly, in that position, and it's always a similar story of not knowing why. That is what haunts them.
 Sometimes it's obvious that the 'child's'  husband or wife has caused the rift, usually disguised to the older person but open to others who see it happening.  

A close friend cried often that while her son came by to visit whenever he could it was obvious that he was sneaking the visit in unbenownst to his wife.  She flatly refused to have anything to do with our friends and they *never* saw their grandchildren.  
They were the nicest couple, their daughter still lived near them as she didn't want to lose contact, their son too loved them but there was no answer as to what was going on in the DIL's head and he was too frightened to over rule her openly as she would have kept the kids from him too.    No fights with his parents, nothing to explain it at all.  After the wedding she just told them she wouldn't be visiting their home again and would appreciate them not visiting hers and stalked off with no explanation.  I do hope her kids abandon her.

Then there's  the case  of the Mother from Hell  who was owed nothing from her kids for the rotten lives she'd handed them.  The hidings, the locking them in the car in the dark street while she dallied with a boyfriend when their father was at work, the burning of their favourite toys as punishment, and shooting the dog in front of them because it answered her son's call and not hers. The other general all round lack of any semblance of what is expected of mothers gave her no call on their mercies at all.  

Yet when she got cancer one took her in to his and his wife's home, ran her around for appointments, fed and nursed her.  The other sorted all her paperwork out and paid off all her debts for money she'd borrowed to feed through the poker machines and paid for specialist medical attention and paid for the funeral as she requested it.  One child had the money and the other had the time and they both treated her way better than she deserved.  Neither loved her, they both detested her, but she was their mother and they did what their consciences demanded kids do for parents.   I wouldn't have been so kind I'm afraid.

What makes those kind of kids tick?  It's still as big a mystery to me as to what makes the abandoners tick.  Just dunno.


----------



## Warrigal

> After the wedding she just told them she wouldn't be visiting their home again and would appreciate them not visiting hers and stalked off with no explanation.  I do hope her kids abandon her.


I find this interesting. Seeing your parents look after their parents and in turn your children seeing you care for yours is the kind of modelling that probably means that your children will follow suit. Of course there are no guarantees.

When families are fractured by distance the children may not be so aware that their parents are still in contact with, and caring for their grandparents. My son is in Albury, not that far away really (6-8 hours driving) but I probably only see him every two years. We do talk on the telephone quite often. However, his two sons are with their mother in the mountains west of Sydney and we are not that close anymore. No animosity, but she has moved on after remarrying and then burying her second husband. How close will the boys be to either of their parents later? I don't know but if their wives are part of a close-knit family group, then my son and ex DIL might get a lot less attention, especially if they move interstate.


----------



## Diwundrin

No life doesn't come with guarantees.  It started me wondering what kind of relationship that DIL had with her own parents.  I never heard anything about that, probably neither did our friends.  

Started me thinking about a friend I knew in Singleton, she was into her 80s and getting rickety. Her daughter was a care worker in the 'other' aged hostel, not sure if she was a nurse or just carer staff though.  

She would call in on her mother at least a few times a week.  Chat with her on the phone etc but she never actually ever *did* anything for her.  Her mother's friends between us would cart her around to appointments and take her washing home when she was sick, which got more often as the years went by,  and shop or tidy the house for her. 

 The old dear would mention that her daughter had been to see her that morning, but that was all she did. Never even washed the coffee cups. She seemed to think it was enough to see her mother and talk  to her, but went home and left her to fend for herself.  I was often glad she didn't work in the hostel Mum was in, I hate to think how much care she must have lavished on her patients.  

I was told there was a townwaking barney put on after I left down there when the remainder of our group ganged up on the daughter and gave her a detailed account of her shortcomings.  Sorry I missed that.    It's all blown over now but guess what?  The mother took the daughter's side.   

Is it any wonder that I prefer being up here on my own and out of the looney bin that the rest of us seem to live in?



'Familial duty' loomed fairly large through Mum's family although there are a few that shirked their responsibilities, there was always a sibling to take the load though.  Dad's family were more 'make your own arrangements and devil take the hindmost' though.  They never did more for each other than they had to and then under protest.  Maybe it is an attitude handed down through nurture but then that doesn't account for 'black sheep' does it?

Still dunno.


----------



## Warrigal

I made friends with an old dear while my mother was still alive. She was legally blind but lived in her own small house with her little yap dog (no, that's not a spelling mistake). A member of our congregation asked if we could get her out of the house so I began picking her up for the fortnightly Coffee and Chat session, along with my mum who was getting quite demented.

The pair of them sat together and chatted away and even though Mum was off with the pixies quite a lot, Norma was very patient and seemed to enjoy her company. She was quite the extrovert and loved company.

Then she disappeared and her house was sold. We didn't know where she moved to but it turned out that her daughter and son in law combined the proceeds of the sale with their own capital to build a new two storey house not too far away. She made contact again after a while and by this time Mum was gone so I was happy to fetch Norma and take her to socials, dinners with the ladies and to church on Sundays. She was not happy at the new house because her daughter and SIL were very controlling but did little for her. The daughter, who did not work, spent about three days a week on the golf course and she refused to take the old woman to her medical appointments because "I didn't leave work to drive you everywhere". Luckily Norma had a Gold Card and was able to access a helper to drive her and stay with her but it hurt her a lot.

I don't know what became of Norma because one day when I called to take her to a social, the daughter met me at the door and announced that she wouldn't be coming out with us any more. The next day Norma phoned and said the same thing but I felt that she was under some duress. We haven't heard from her since. 

If Norma is still alive I reckon she is now in a nursing home and rather lonely, and her daughter has a nice big house to live in. Abandonment can happen even when you are living in the same house. It still hurts.


----------



## Diwundrin

More so.


----------



## SifuPhil

Certainly a part of the problem is our advanced technology.

Whether it be the proliferation of electronic communications or the ease of leaving the family "compound" and moving hours away we are experts at achieving our freedom, in the process often forgetting that isolation can be just one of the drawbacks of that freedom.

I think also that it is the focus upon children as something _other_ than children - as being little adults - has harmed familial ties irreparably. We didn't allow them a childhood; rather, we enrolled them in advanced-placement kindergarten, gave them computers before their first Dr. Seuss book and bragged to our peers when precocious little Johnny was cussing at the dog when he was just 5 years old. 

Johnny, that is - the dog was 12 at the time, old enough to take a bit of verbal abuse.

Finally, I believe the "Me First" mindset that has been foisted upon us by the media has taken a firm grip on younger minds, giving them - in their minds, anyway - not only the option but the _right_ to ignore everyone but their own fine selves.


----------



## Vivjen

[QUOTE

Finally, I believe the "Me First" mindset that has been foisted upon us by the media has taken a firm grip on younger minds, giving them - in their minds, anyway - not only the option but the _right_ to ignore everyone but their own fine selves.[/QUOTE]
Actions without consequences again.

I have been thinking about this; I think it can be quite easy when bringing up one's own family to start to ignore one's elders.
everybody is so busy; living a long way away; working; etc,
i found though, that as the kids grew up, I was more interested and thoughtful towards Mum and Dad, and the older generation of the extended family. Perhaps that is why I am so interested in family history too.
now my children visit my parents, and want to go..which is great.

I do find it difficult to understand why people completely ignore their parents; most of them did try hard after all.
Even if, for any reason, you detest them, surely you should give your own children a chance to make their own minds up?


----------



## Diwundrin

Technology doesn't account for the long history of it being done Phil.  It's 60 years since I was a 'kid' and it happened then too.

Our culture isn't as ancestor focused as some and perhaps when it's not considered quite as mandatory as in other cultures then those who feel less obligated have the freedom to drift off with little or no social ramifications to give them pause.  The pension etc seems to have replaced the necessity of offspring's support in old age too.  Those countries with less welfare but not at famine level seem more likely to encompass the oldies into the extended family unit.

I guess it beats the old ways of some cultures which entailed being thrown out into the snow so there's more food to go around the grandkids when times are tough. 

Abandonment is  more hurtful  than  harmful in our society now.


----------



## SifuPhil

Diwundrin said:


> Technology doesn't account for the long history of it being done Phil.  It's 60 years since I was a 'kid' and it happened then too.



... and automobiles weren't around in 1954? Televisions? Airplanes? 



> Our culture isn't as ancestor focused as some and perhaps when it's not considered quite as mandatory as in other cultures then those who feel less obligated have the freedom to drift off with little or no social ramifications to give them pause.  The pension etc seems to have replaced the necessity of offspring's support in old age too.  Those countries with less welfare but not at famine level seem more likely to encompass the oldies into the extended family unit.



China is one of those countries where the elderly used to be considered demi-gods. It was unheard of to shoo them out to fend for themselves - you would have been an outcast not only from your own family but from the entire town. 

Less welfare? Certainly the case in China, which would explain the practice.

Yet, there has been a recent trend developing there where elders are being placed into homes, because the children are too busy with their ultra-urban lifestyles and Westernized ways to bother taking care of Mom and Dad. If you were to graph this activity you might see that it keeps pace with the influx of modern tech.



> I guess it beats the old ways of some cultures which entailed being thrown out into the snow so there's more food to go around the grandkids when times are tough.



But that certainly helped deal with the overpopulation problems ...



> Abandonment is  more hurtful  than  harmful in our society now.



You think so? I think if I were on the receiving end of that sort of treatment it would be equally both.


----------



## Fern

> Finally, I believe the "Me First" mindset that has been foisted upon us  by the media has taken a firm grip on younger minds, giving them - in  their minds, anyway - not only the option but the _right_ to ignore everyone but their own fine selves


That is soo right in many cases. I experienced it myself for years, through the one sidedness of everything my family went their own way for years, I never saw or heard from them. These days things have improved, (thank goodness for some maturity,) but too many times there is still that me,me me. Consequently the grand kids believe the same.


----------



## Justme

Whilst my siblings and myself ensured our late mother wanted for nothing, and had the best of care homes, we didn't get on with her and had a feeling of relief when she died a year ago.


----------



## Lynda

I am relieved that my daughter and her children are no longer in my life.  I no longer have to walk on egg shells worrying that something I say be taken the wrong way.  I_ would not want this daughter to take care of me if I become unable to take care of myself.  I think I would be abused.  I don't really know what I did that was so wrong, but I don't really care anymore.  I don't have the time or the energy to worry about it.  I'm fine with who I am and have no need for the drama.  I am happy that we both can have a sense of relief now and not have to wait until I die.  Sometimes I think our culture puts to much pressure on us to like our children/parents.  I don't like my daughter and she doesn't like me.  It's okay.  We are better off to acknowledge it and get on with our lives with those with which we have positive relationships.  

_


----------



## Capt Lightning

I loved my parents in law, but after FiL died,  MiL, seemed to think that we should abandon our lives, jobs, the childens' education and friends to look after her.  We said "no", she could come to us, but nobody should ask us to sacrifice everything we had worked for.  As it happened, she stayed in her own home, and we kept in touch and visited as often as we could.

What do you do if the choice is between your parents and your own family?  To my mind your duty is to your family.  It is not abandoning your parents - it is looking after their grandchildren.


----------



## BDBoop

I have been estranged from my parents more often than not. They are both mentally ill, to some degree. Or were. My mother passed from dementia in February, 2011. When she visits in my dreams, she is her 'sane' self. 

The subject of children abandoning their parents isn't as clear as all that. If they had a good relationship all along, that's one thing. If the parent got marginalized to nothing, then no, really; that's not okay. 

A few years back, I woke up on my daughter's couch, after spending the night crying, and asked her (on Mother's Day, no less) why. "Why do I never see my grandbabies. I was at their birth, and now when I say I can hear her, can I talk to her, you say no? Why!?! It HURTS!!" **Do not ask me why I wait until things are unbearable before I react. I have no idea**

That was a major wake-up call for my daughter, I am happy to say. She could have just said "You know what, thanks for the memories, but I have enough on my plate."

Capt Lightning, I am glad you said no. Maybe she was speaking out of grief, or maybe she is incredibly selfish but it is good that you did not do as asked.


----------



## Kaya

I abandoned my mother when I was 17, after my father died. She didn't care. Nor did I. I had good reason to. She was insane, evil, cruel and an abuser. She died a few years ago. Big whoop.


----------



## BDBoop

I would be devastated if my daughter abandoned me. She does have an incredibly busy life - and I am grateful for Facebook and other social sites that keep us in closer contact than if we didn't have any of them.


----------



## CPA-Kim

Being single, with no children and both parents dead, I would love to have children or grandchildren to share my life with.  I'm content living alone and happy but I would like a family to be part of my life.  I feel very sorry for any family that is torn apart for whatever reason.


----------



## BDBoop

CPA-Kim said:


> Being single, with no children and both parents dead, I would love to have children or grandchildren to share my life with.  I'm content living alone and happy but I would like a family to be part of my life.  I feel very sorry for any family that is torn apart for whatever reason.



I bet there are families that could use a 'foster grandma' to fill empty shoes.  I think our society needs to do a better job of connecting people. Even just one generation removed. I miss my mom. Not as much as my sister does, [bad memories inserted here] but I do miss her. I gravitate towards 'women of a certain age' because that's how old my mom would be now. And oh look, I am crying. Bleep.

But anyway. You seem like a lovely woman, Kim and I can understand that sense of "It's just me, now" that you are dealing with.


----------



## BDBoop

My best friend never married, she's 60 now. Never had children. She does have two siblings, but they are male and oh what can I say.  Anyway, she and I (and several other friends as well) are happy on the singles bench. I will say though, she has a godson who is pretty much her "Son from another mother" because they are SO much alike.


----------



## Kathryn

I guess to me it no longer matters why or if there is a certain trend in the past or always will be.  To me all I can think of or think matters is how awful it feels to be completely alone at times when a loving interested caring simple phone call would make the difference between wanting to or caring to carve out a life for ones self.   I am not talking thinking about ending ones life but just not caring anymore if your life continues.  As I've aged I'm not in perfect health but I've worked hard to be healthy enough to be independent yet I'm not well enough to be hugely active so this limits my capabilities and financially I'm not able to supplement a fixed income.  All this is restricting in abilities to get involved in many things but nevertheless to just be tossed aside...never contacted...not cared about when sick or in distress or even under threat makes one wonder why keep trying.  I realize one should have a healthy self love but to never be hugged...touched..spoke to...sat with...How does one fund reason to keep fighting.  If your own children don't show when you face life and death or life threatening situations....why bother?  I'm m sorry .  I'm writing this for the same reason I sought this site out...I'm at the end of my rope today.  To judge if a person deserves to have caring by their performance in life is cold and cruel.  I would not treat a stranger who asked for help in horrible circumstances that would only take a bit of time by ignoring it the way it's been these last year's.   Its a big world and I feel as important as an ant one sees scurry on the sidewalk right now.  We're it not knowing I am important with some purpose for being here as God's child idk if I could hang on anymore and it doesn't matter to a soul.  Not one person that would even come in an emergency.   How does one find purpose in that? 
.


----------



## fureverywhere

For some of us, certainly not everyone. There is a site called "Estranged Stories". There can be much comfort there, jus' sayin'.


----------



## Kathryn

Thank you.  I did look it up and in doing so saw a site for the children who have estranged and inadvertently scanned a few threads because I did not understand the anagrams nor did I bother to further research.  It was fairly evident that they were children who have estranged their parents and seeking support.  What has this world come to that things like this even go on.  I couldn't stand reading it.  I felt like any one of those could have come from my children.  I hate the level of bitterness and cruelty in this world between people who are connected as so called family.   I'll search another time when I'm not so sensitive.  Thank you for the suggestion.  They even had something there that do not give out our link (yet that specific instruction was the link I found right under the one for Estranged Stories) to ES......estranged stories....... or it could be a disaster.  This sounds like some cruel war.  Again thanks for the referral to the group estranged stories.


----------



## fureverywhere

It's also for parents with estranged children and grandchildren as well.

I don't share this with too many sites. My oldest daughter? I was separated from her Dad when she was fourteen. Always an impulsive kid. She didn't want to move with me. Her boyfriend...and the pregnancy I found out about later. Okay, fine go back with your Dad. Not only did she manipulate her sister long distance...she wouldn't listen to Dad either. My husband really was there for her and still she refused any discipline. He set her to his brother in VA. Sociopath, drunk and ex-junkie...perfect guardian and I couldn't afford a lawyer to fight it.

At the time they could go before a judge and say I was dead or out of contact. His brother became her legal frickin' guardian. Then she turned on her Dad and me together...Stockholm Syndrome much? Her sister was an honor student. How do you tell a judge you want to block visitation because her sister is the kind of influence you want to protect her from? You can't...and everyone loses in the end. I know some parents are truly evil...but sometimes it's not on us. We did what we could with what we knew at the time. I realize her and her sister are out of my life. Little ******* will probably be crying loudest at the funeral and did Mami leave anything of value?


----------



## Kathryn

I'm sorry.  I wasn't clear.  I Googled estranged stories and right under their link was the the one for children who have estranged saying Do NOT go to estranged stories so I looked at it.  I guess I'm way too sensitive right now cuz what I saw when I looked was children saying awful things about their parents.   Its a separate group not connected with this one.  It doesn't take much for me right now to be triggered to hurt but I didn't want I to think you'd bern thought to give out wrong info.   I remember feeling like this before and calling a distress line that only wanted to go aftery children like that would help but that's how upset I am so I hope u understand I was talking about a different group than this one.


----------



## fureverywhere

Kathryn, really...no matter where you are there are folks on ES who have been there too. Your heart shatters, but my Dad kind of framed it one night. We write chapters of our lives. Some books you might reread and some you might not. Estrangement means our kids are writing their chapters without us. We have to pick up and write our chapters without them. That's really it. I tossed all the pictures...hurt like Hell but yeah...really go back to ES when you're ready.


----------



## Kadee

I ( we) recently changed our wills,we have it with a company run by a group of solicitors ,due to the fact my husband of 30 years ,ex can apparently put in a claim on our estate if something happen to us together,   We have also cut his two children aged 39 and 43 out COMPLETLY ..The lady who handles our wills said its a common thing now days for elderly parents/ grown children to be estranged ..I recently cut my eldest Grandaughter out COMPLETLY after her unwarranted treatment of us by not inviting us to her wedding ....


----------



## Shalimar

At one point, my son's thoughtless cruelty literally broke me, as nothing in my past ever had. He went through me with a verbal buzz saw.  I was in pieces for two years. He has no idea what he did. Young, stupid, lashing out. Found out years later, 

it was about his disappointment re being unable to attend grad school?? It is better now, but there is a distance. I find it difficult to trust him. I know I cannot ask him for any emotional support, or probably much of anything else either. He wants a loving supportive mother, he does not want to be a son. He is thirty four, married, no kids yet.


----------



## debbie in seattle

My oldest daughter has separated from our family.   It hurts like hell.   Last weekend was my birthday.  While my husband tried to make the day special for me, all I could do is hope for a card, an email.   We went to dinner and as nice as our meal was, all I could think of is my daughter lives only 3-5 miles from where I was sitting.   My other daughter tries so hard to make up for the absence of her sister, it's so wrong.    She no longer has a relationship with her sister.   Why?  No one knows.    My husband sees our daughter maybe once or twice a year.  If he wants to see her, she makes him (at the age of 70 and is as deaf as one can get) drive to downtown Seattle. It's always near her birthday and Christmas.     Mothers Day is the worst for me.   We go to brunch and I just see all these families together and it kills me (my other daughter lives in Az).   Last year at brunch, I cried the entire time.   My poor husband acted like all was good.   I just couldn't stop crying.  Folks walking by our table probably thought my husband was some wife abuser or something.....mascara running down my face, eyes all red, it was terrible.  I'm just shocked one of my children would turn out to be such a selfish, cruel person.


----------



## fureverywhere

Don't make it public but on ES I am Paul, change gender and what have you but yeah that's me.


----------



## vickyNightowl

Really sad stories,especially for the parents who don't know the answer to 'why'. 


My mom passed away when I was 7.my father remarried a year later.she was abusive to me and I had a bad childhood.

I tried for years to keep in touch in my adult married life,visiting them in Maryland etc. A few years back,the last phonecall to  them,my stepmom was cold on the phone,I was shocked asked what was wrong and she told me her dad passed away and ii didn't call her for the condolences. I don't know how I was suppposed to know.
Anyways,lol I had a meltown,breakdown,I don't know what it was,(my dad always took her side,the pu''y that he was)
She remained upset and I got tired of puting in the effort to try and stay close for my dads sake.
I cut off ties from the abuse that had gone from physical to emotional.

I  haven't spoken to them since and I have learned to disenstiize myself to remaiin sane.

Now,my maternal grandmother who I lived with in Greece,I loved her so much that I even changed her diapers in the months before she passed.

I would do the same for my MIL.she was an amazing woman.

My children,son is 25 and lives on his own since he was 20.he comes up every weekend cause he lives and works in the city and we are texting all the time but I would never want to burden them at my old age.my son tells me he will take care of me and my dauughter tells me to pick an old peeps home,lmao I have to remind her that she is living in MY home and her 18th bbirthday is around the corner,lol

We do our best .damn if you do and damn if you don't sometimes.


----------



## Lynda

I don't think the distance has much to do with it based upon the fact that I got along with my daughter when we were 1800 miles apart. I am now  30 miles away from her.  We did not talk for past 2 years.  Recently we reconnected through the death of her oldest daughter, with whom I was close.  We will see how it goes. It will require work on both sides.  We have both made mistakes along the way.  It is too easy to forget our own omissions.

A great read which has a lot of insight into our ageing relationships is OLIVE KITTERIDGE by Elizabeth Strout.


----------



## vickyNightowl

Lynda,I'm sorry about your grandaughter.


----------



## Shalimar

My deepest sympathy Lynda.


----------



## nitelite

I am so amazed and saddened by many of these stories. I have many friends, myself included, who's children have become estranged and not one has an answer as to *why*? I was only hearing from my grown children when they needed something from me. When I started to refuse their requests their contact with me diminished. It hurts most because I do not know the reason *why*?


----------



## vickyNightowl

There is a saying and I will try to translate it from Greek:
'Where you are,I was,where I am,you are coming'

When these kids get old and are treated this way,maybe they will realise what they did.


----------



## Kitties

It can go all ways. My mother stopped talking to my oldest brother when I was in high school. He is 11 years older than me. She never spoke to him again. I think it was inevitable but in the end it was something I did that was the final thing. I didn't do anything wrong, I know. What my mother could not stand was that my oldest brother stayed in contact with our biological father. Now I haven't spoken to my oldest brother since I was 24.

My other brother has asked me why I don't talk to him. I told him a couple of reasons once and he said "I didn't know that"


----------



## fureverywhere

Worst thing I FB'd to the oldest. One day you might have a child like you...heaven forbid but it would serve you right. No you're just my birth mother, for fourteen ****ing years you were clueless". What can you do? They're writing they're life past you...get over it...breaks your heart in a million pieces...but yeah go on or off yourself.


----------



## jujube

I'm not "estranged" from my daughter.....it's just that I don't seem to have any relevance in her life.  If I want to see her, I have to call and ask her to go to lunch.  Maybe she's too busy, maybe she can fit me in.  She doesn't call me and say, "Mother, I haven't seen you for a while; let's meet for lunch."  

If we're both in town, we'll have Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner.

There has never been any harsh words between us or any big blow-ups.  As I said before, it's like I'm an aunt that you like but don't see any need to see much of.  

A lot of it is her present husband; he's controlling and has done his best to split her from the family.  He's done a pretty good job. He tried to keep my granddaughter away as much as possible but wasn't successful. 

It is what it is.  I doubt it will ever change.


----------



## jujube

I'm not "estranged" from my daughter.....it's just that I don't seem to have any relevance in her life.  If I want to see her, I have to call and ask her to go to lunch.  Maybe she's too busy, maybe she can fit me in.  She doesn't call me and say, "Mother, I haven't seen you for a while; let's meet for lunch."  

If we're both in town, we'll have Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner.

There has never been any harsh words between us or any big blow-ups.  As I said before, it's like I'm an aunt that she likes but don't see any need to see much of.  

A lot of it is her present husband; he's controlling and has done his best to split her from the family.  He's done a pretty good job. He tried to keep my granddaughter away as much as possible but wasn't successful. 

It is what it is.  I doubt it will ever change.


----------



## awfultimeforwind

This is perverse:  "One father of three children tells of how he and his wife have been cut off and ignored by their eldest son who is now a highly successful businessman. On mother’s day he refused to visit, *“We received an hour-long rant on all the things we’d done wrong as parents, including once driving away from him when he was naughty. We did this to all of our children at one stage or another and was quite effective. It taught them a lesson and made them behave better. They turned out ok and we were just trying to do the best we could as parents at the time”."  *I mean, truly sadistic and pathological.  What child would want to have any contact with these diseased parents.  And, after all this time, they continue to believe they were right in doing this.  Pathology at its grandest and most soul-destroying.


----------



## awfultimeforwind

This is why we need our own lives, completely independent from our children.  In my case, I see the estrangement is technology-based.  It has changed my offspring completely, just as the internet, etc., is rewiring all our brains in ways that are not good.  My daughter will send an email, and not telephone.  She thinks I know things that she has not told me because she has written about them elsewhere.  I feel like - and know I am - living in a completely different universe.  (But most all email communication is evil).  I will discontinue use of the internet entirely as soon as I can figure out how to construct an environment without it.  I do not have a cell phone.  Landlines are being discontinued.  I'm not about to live without electricity, etc.  

How did I come to this forum?  There is no one, other than strangers, to whom I dare speak one word that sounds like, or is, a criticism of my daughter.  She and I have had one of the best mother-daughter relationships she has ever heard about or experienced, so she tells me.  I've never thought much of my contributions as a parent, other than to make sure that there was as much constancy as possible, and to assist when needed.  (I swear I am not putting myself down.  It's just true.  Not everyone should become a mother or parent).  I don't like it that my daughter is so changed, nor that there is nothing I can do about the use of technology for just about everything, nor how it has changed the way we think and interact.  ("We" meaning everyone).  I feel as if the pod people have taken over the universe.  However, I know there are people out there who do not utilize technology to the extent that it has effected their brains and the way they interact.

In some ways, it is going to take having a kind of "cold" heart, at least to begin with, in order to release from the bonds of "mother."  I see no other way around it for now.  I don't want the drama.  My health can't take the drama.  My daughter doesn't need the drama.  BUT have you ever noticed that, almost the moment you have that thought, the daughter, (or son?) will contact you and want you to BE the Mother?  It's a similar phenomena to guys not being interested in a woman until she's become truly independent.  This is all too much in too short a lifetime.  

Would you agree that it is time to close the book on making these attempts.  I'm at that point.  I can't - I refuse to - be destroyed because of any of this sort of thing.


----------



## awfultimeforwind

Maybe it's due to the idiotic "happy family" enculturalization, and that's that.  Maybe, and I think this is true now, this is the way it is supposed to be.  Maybe it is past time to close the book and not be involved.  I don't know about you, but I've never cared about having grandchildren, for example, and there won't be any.  I have never been one to talk about my child at work, or at social events, etc.  That sets me apart and places me in a group that I haven't figured out how to find.  If you don't want to talk babies and grandchildren, that makes you odd, right?  I say, good for you that you stopped responding to your children's requests.  Maybe we should just look on the relationships as strictly a business arrangement.  Sentiment, otherwise, can be deadly.  "Love stinks?"


----------



## Carla

Estrangement in any family can be very painful. If the reasons are understood, then maybe dialogue can help construct a form of bridge to help families to reunite and even heal. Forgiveness can go a long way to create peace in our lives. Abandonment can often lead to regret. Even if a parent is guilty of poor parenting skills, sometimes it's best to air these feelings and let it go. I was raised during the days when spanking was socially acceptable, not beating or abusing but as a way of controlling children when they misbehave. It left no emotional scars on myself, my siblings or any other neighborhood kids. It did not teach us to hit or be violent with others or our own children. Schools also used it as a tool for grade school children and believe me, when I was in school children behaved pretty well.

It isn't easy to figure these things out because if it's only one child, say, out of a brood of five, you could scratch your head and wonder why. I have a neighbor in her eighties, widowed, who had four children--three of which visit her all the time. When her husband passed, I noticed the name of another daughter that I had never met. Innocently, I said to her, "oh I didn't know you had two girls, does she live far away?" To which she said something like, no, she lives a couple miles away, we are estranged but I have no idea why. Ouch. I didn't know what else to say but I wasn't trying to be nosy, and I am very sorry to hear that. Last week, I visited this lady and she told me how bad her year had been. She lost a dear daughter-in-law, her sister and her estranged daughter! How painful that must be.

I look at things differently, maybe, than some people. We have the ability as adults, to maintain boundaries. If the problem is with a parent that is intrusive or demanding, limit your exposure. You can get your point across without being indifferent. Keep phone calls brief, send a card. Encourage children to have a relationship if possible, allow them to get to know their grandparents despite the relationship of the parents.(unless, of course the kids protest) Grit your teeth and visit once in a while, you can keep visits brief too. Just try not to eliminate them from your life completely unless circumstances are so terribly bad you cannot find it in your heart to do this.

My older brother and sister had an estrangement with my Mother, for a couple reasons I fully understood. A couple years before she passed, amends were made and I for one, so glad. They had her to their homes for extended visits and that is all she talked about for those two years. I don't know if they ever trully forgave her but what they did was get passed it. We cannot change our pasts but we can either chose to forgive or try to let it stay in the past and move on. It requires one to first extend that olive branch. It may be "freeing". Life is short.


----------



## oldman

My s-i-l is in a home for older adults that can no longer take care of themselves or who have issues, such as dementia, which is her case. My wife and another of her sisters goes to visit her every Monday. She has four boys, (one deceased). Only one of the three visits her once every other month. The other two are waiting for her to die, so they can collect their inheritance. The oldest boy told me that a few years ago. All three of them are in for a big surprise. She left all of her estate to various charities and the three boys each get only $500.00.


----------



## fureverywhere

" Estranged Stories" is a comfort for anyone and everyone with estrangement issues of any kind.


----------



## Brookswood

My ex is about 85% estranged from our daughters.  What it comes down to is that other things are more important to mom than her children - church groups, work, the new husband (whom she broke up our family for to be with), travel, etc.


----------



## peramangkelder

Lynda said:


> I am relieved that my daughter and her children are no longer in my life.  I no longer have to walk on egg shells worrying that something I say be taken the wrong way.  I_ would not want this daughter to take care of me if I become unable to take care of myself.  I think I would be abused.  I don't really know what I did that was so wrong, but I don't really care anymore.  I don't have the time or the energy to worry about it.  I'm fine with who I am and have no need for the drama.  I am happy that we both can have a sense of relief now and not have to wait until I die.  Sometimes I think our culture puts to much pressure on us to like our children/parents.  I don't like my daughter and she doesn't like me.  It's okay.  We are better off to acknowledge it and get on with our lives with those with which we have positive relationships.
> 
> _


Lynda I could not believe what I was reading in your post because it is exactly like me and my daughter. 
It is a relief that my daughter and her children are not in my life any more.
We don't like each other either and looking back our relationship was always stressful so it was bound to turn out this way right from the start.
Nice to know it's okay not to like your realtives and your relatives don't have to like you either.


----------



## Brookswood

There are  Crazy Makers in all of our lives.  When they are from our own family it is especially sad. But, they are who they are. And the #1 rule of life I have learned after all these years is "You can't control other people".   (Well you can try, the government does it sometimes with concrete walls, bars on the windows and big guards with guns.)    We can only be the best we can be and, when necessary, protect ourselves from the CM's even if, sadly, they are family.


----------



## Debby

I've skimmed through this thread rather quickly but a couple points caught my eye:

Like Brookswood said, 'you can't control other people'  (in other words, if you expect something from someone, you're open to being disappointed)
Someone else said something along the lines of there being no rule that children and parents will like each other and sometimes life is more peaceful if you aren't inflicting yourselves on each other.

Ten years ago, I left my mother behind and moved across the country.  Our relationship has always been tense, not unfriendly but just tense even when it's 'good'.  Next spring, I will be moving back to within an hour of my mother's home.  She is 81 and her health could change suddenly and then I'll be close enough to get to her as needed.

I'm not thrilled about having to be close and helping her but I'm doing it because I would feel guiltier for not being there for her, than I will feel miserable because I have no choice but to spend time with her.  The real tragedy is that I'm going to be leaving behind my two grandchildren who adore me so that I can be there to help my mom who has never seemed to like me since I hit puberty.  (they adore me because I'm the grandma who wrestles with Liam, plays computer games with him and plays 'kitty' with Elsa in the blanket fort that we make out of the couch cushions ).  

If parents are wondering why their kids don't return or keep in touch, maybe they need to consider how they talk to those wayward adult children.  Do they respect them enough to let them finish sentences, listen to their ideas and thoughts even when they're different than 'mom/dad's' thinking or do they slip into the 'I'm the mother/father and I know what's right and you must listen to me and go along with my ideas'.  Do they interfere with how the kids are brought up, over ride mommies decisions or support them, or are they openly critical whenever they do visit.  That's what my mother does all the time to me and seriously, if I wasn't the kind of person who feels the guilt of my own decisions, I'd probably be a lot happier if I only phoned once every six months or variations thereof.


----------



## Brookswood

A lot has been written about parents who have to deal with 'strong willed' children.  But, children often have to deal with 'strong willed' parents, and often it is not fun.    While these parents often rebelled against their own parents so that they could live their own lives, they seem to not want their children to have the same option. Rather, the children, like most of the rest of the world, must conform to their views on how things should be done, etc.     

Like I said earlier " you can't control other people' and the attempts to do so usually only create stress, mostly for the person who want to control others and their immediate family.   If you have a parent or child who is difficult, beware the 'covert contract' you may make with them " I will be a good child/parent, not cause trouble, strive to please you in every way, and in return you will be a good child/parent."  Unfortunately, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS ABOUT THE CONTRACT.  So the other parties does not honor it, and that causes even more stress in hour life.


----------



## Debby

Couldn't have said it better Brookswood.  It's not fair to the 'kids' who don't keep in touch or don't want to spend time with aging parents, to always blame them for that absence.  It takes two to tango even in the parent/child relationship.


----------



## Shalimar

Tough predicament to be in. Sometimes parents are responsible for strained relations with their adult offspring, just as often they aren't. Usually society tends to blame the parents. Double whammy.


----------



## Debby

In my experience it's more usual that  society casts shame at the 'children who never visit' when it's an old person.  Oh poor Gertrude her kids never visit, poor Andy he's all alone even though he's got kids, they never come and visit him, etc.  In the case of my mom and I, well oil and water. What else can I say.  

On the other hand, shame is usually cast at the parents when their younger kids get in trouble and the refrain in that instance being 'what kind of rotten parents did that one have, really taught THAT one manners didn't they?, etc....'.


----------



## Shalimar

Debby said:


> In my experience it's more usual that  society casts shame at the 'children who never visit' when it's an old person.  Oh poor Gertrude her kids never visit, poor Andy he's all alone even though he's got kids, they never come and visit him, etc.  In the case of my mom and I, well oil and water. What else can I say.
> 
> On the other hand, shame is usually cast at the parents when their younger kids get in trouble and the refrain in that instance being 'what kind of rotten parents did that one have, really taught THAT one manners didn't they?, etc....'.


Hmmm. I guess we have different experiences around this one Debby.


----------



## Aunt Bea

This is a very tough subject, lots of baggage on both sides.  IMO you should do everything you can to stay above the fray, keep in contact and assist aging parents.  Parents are people and all people are flawed in some way, accept that fact and do the best you can.  The knowledge that you did your best, where your parents are concerned, will give you great comfort in later years.


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

My daughter has spent the last 10 years nursing a grudge and won't have anything to do with her brother. It's like having two separate families, and it's neither fun nor comfortable. My granny flat is attached to daughter's house, and I live a miserable 30-mile drive on two very busy interstates from my son. 

I _hate_ it, and there's not a thing in the world I can do about it. Can't afford to move into a place that's really my own. Believe me, I would if I could. Better yet, I'd move back to my home town in Michigan. If wishes were horses, my first wish would be to not have had kids...


----------



## Carla

GeorgiaXplant said:


> My daughter has spent the last 10 years nursing a grudge and won't have anything to do with her brother. It's like having two separate families, and it's neither fun nor comfortable. My granny flat is attached to daughter's house, and I live a miserable 30-mile drive on two very busy interstates from my son.
> 
> I _hate_ it, and there's not a thing in the world I can do about it. Can't afford to move into a place that's really my own. Believe me, I would if I could. Better yet, I'd move back to my home town in Michigan. If wishes were horses, my first wish would be to not have had kids...



That's both sad and very unfortunate, Georgia. They are being unfair to you too, it must be very hurtful. Grudges and estrangements tear families apart. It proves nothing, no one wins and it often affects children and other innocent family members. I really hope someday they will both realize how much it is hurting you before the grudge turns into regrets.


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

It's not my son who has a problem. It's my daughter; she has blocked his phone and email. She is blind to the hurt it causes me (and him) or maybe she just doesn't give a rat's rear. Who knows? She's so wrapped up in her kids that nothing else is of much importance to her.

Done whining.


----------



## fureverywhere

It takes a lot of time sometimes. I still get nightmares where I'm naked and the older girls are trying to take every scrap I own. There's a lot of meaning there. But after close to a decade of sobbing my heart out for them I've come to accept the estrangement enough to live with it. An innocent question that can leave you reeling early on..." Oh and how many children do you have?". 

Let's see the eldest is 34, then 26,23, 21, and fifteen. Then lets move the conversation to my perfect grandbaby...


----------



## Debby

GeorgiaXplant said:


> It's not my son who has a problem. It's my daughter; she has blocked his phone and email. She is blind to the hurt it causes me (and him) or maybe she just doesn't give a rat's rear. Who knows? She's so wrapped up in her kids that nothing else is of much importance to her.
> 
> Done whining.




I'm sure sorry to hear that you're in such a tough spot Georgia.  It's an unfortunate fact of life that we 'need' family and yet they can be the biggest source of pain.  If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have kids either but not for the same reasons as you.  I hate continuing to worry that their lives are difficult, scary, that they might be hurt by life events.......


----------



## grannyjo

I'm pretty much in the same boat.  Daughter I chose to have no further contact with,  because she would phone anytime,  day or night and abuse me.  She was either drunk,  or drug affected at the time.  I had to call the police to have her stopped.

Last time I saw my son,  in February,  we had a disagreement regarding phone calls,  of all things.  Why I didn't phone him frequently enough.  He gets his free,  I have to pay for mine.

He walked out the door,  and as he was going,  he said I had no family left now.

We have had no contact since then.

At first,  I was truly upset,  but soon realised that I was better off emotionally.

I wasn't being lectured,  told that I was doing things wrong during each phone call.  I wasn't being told that I had been a dreadful mother,  that I could have done better.

If I could have my time over again,  I certainly would not have had children.


----------



## Debby

Family can be the biggest pain in the butt sometimes can't they?  I'm sure sorry that your kids are difficult grannyjo and hope that you have friendships that make up for their 'absence'. 

 My husbands mother was like your daughter and she would do the same kind of thing to her other son and his wife.  Nasty, nasty phone calls.  She got banned too.  I guess that's something that is required with some people yeah?  You have to decide if you want that kind of toxicity in your life.


----------



## fureverywhere

My oldest girl? Her birthday was some few weeks ago. I tried last year to connect again through FaceBook. Maybe you're a bit older? A bit wiser? Nahh, her aunt is her "real" maternal figure? Okay baby, I gave you life...you figure it out on your own beeyatch. I surrender...really you have to reach that point or they eat you alive. When I die my niece has my Grandmothers earrings, daughter in law has my mother's anniversary band. Nothing of value left...go the %^&$ away.


----------



## grahamg

Warrigal started this thread with these lines:
"This seems to be a growing problem. I have known several women who have become estranged from their daughters and it is a source of deep sadness."

I am effectively totally estranged from my daughter, having not seen her at all for eight years and then she brought her husband and her six month old son to see my father, so the little boys great granddad. After some discussion, where my daughter's husband encouraged my daughter to allow me to be present, I did see her for an hour or so. There has been no further visits to my home, and I am not permitted to know where she lives, other than the name of the town, with the exception of a couple of text messages which came to an abrupt end, and then she attended her grandfather's funeral in June, and chose to sit next to me in church, and was very pleasant and behaved as though there had never been any estrangement between us (though no hugs or demonstrations of affection you understand ).

So, I think this is a very important topic, and I agree with all those saying something similar on the thread obviously, and I feel for all those affected in some way. When religion mattered we used to say "Honour thy father and thy mother......." in a prayer didn't we, but I guess so few children will be having that thought instilled in them now (apparently my ex.'s new husband was described as my daughter's "real dad" whilst I was demoted to "biological father" - however, now my ex. has left him, who she had two more daughters with, I am not sure the status he is granted in my child's family or whether he has become described as a "biological dad" to his own children?).

Those who have said on the thread that maybe there are reasons why children disown parents are of course right, but I would suggest that a lack of heart is often being shown or lack of compassion. My own child must be tough to do the job she does, and emotionally she is strong and she has her own priorities - I was told by a former brother in law I remain in contact with that the reason my daughter did not choose to try to see her granddad during the last eighteen months of his life "because as a doctor she couldn't get herself involved" or some such thinking. That's a bit hard on her part if it is indeed true. 

I have no doubt the person who used to tell my daughter that "she knew everything my daughter was thinking, and what she would do before she did it" will be getting very different treatment - and I will leave you to guess who that might be


----------



## happytime

I'am ,it woulld seem am very lucky///My daughter in law is a shrink so she chooses to talk thing out an get along. Every Wed I spend 3 to 4 hours wiht my G/daughter.
They have never used her against me ...we get together atleast 2 maybe 3 times a week on the wkends....Alexandra an I have so much fun on Wed....we olay whatever 
SHE wants an enjoy h=just being together.....I'am so happy with our realationships....an more G/parents should have this conection. I'am blessed. My Mom an I lived 
together for the last 23 years of her life an I would NOT have chg that for anything...she was so great an took care of us kids up until the day she dies....I was so lucky an 
I still miss her to this day...She died on her 99th birthday an it was such a sad day for me an always will be.


----------



## fureverywhere

But we're blessed for sites like this one and Estranged Stories too. Before the internet we would have thought we were the only ones. I for one know I shouldn't have had human kids. Maybe the oldest one several years later but no more. Dogs I understand now. I am the almighty food giver person. Make me happy and treats and tushy rubs will rain from the sky.

Make me unhappy and I will scrunch up my face and curse like Joe Pesci. You don't want to even imagine what could happen there...no you really don't. My dogs will stand on their heads if I say it the right way. Human kids I just didn't know.


----------



## Debby

grahamg said:


> Warrigal started this thread with these lines:
> "This seems to be a growing problem. I have known several women who have become estranged from their daughters and it is a source of deep sadness."
> 
> I am effectively totally estranged from my daughter, having not seen her at all for eight years and then she brought her husband and her six month old son to see my father, so the little boys great granddad. After some discussion, where my daughter's husband encouraged my daughter to allow me to be present, I did see her for an hour or so. There has been no further visits to my home, and I am not permitted to know where she lives, other than the name of the town, with the exception of a couple of text messages which came to an abrupt end, and then she attended her grandfather's funeral in June, and chose to sit next to me in church, and was very pleasant and behaved as though there had never been any estrangement between us (though no hugs or demonstrations of affection you understand ).
> 
> So, I think this is a very important topic, and I agree with all those saying something similar on the thread obviously, and I feel for all those affected in some way. When religion mattered we used to say "Honour thy father and thy mother......." in a prayer didn't we, but I guess so few children will be having that thought instilled in them now (apparently my ex.'s new husband was described as my daughter's "real dad" whilst I was demoted to "biological father" - however, now my ex. has left him, who she had two more daughters with, I am not sure the status he is granted in my child's family or whether he has become described as a "biological dad" to his own children?).
> 
> Those who have said on the thread that maybe there are reasons why children disown parents are of course right, but I would suggest that a lack of heart is often being shown or lack of compassion. My own child must be tough to do the job she does, and emotionally she is strong and she has her own priorities - I was told by a former brother in law I remain in contact with that the reason my daughter did not choose to try to see her granddad during the last eighteen months of his life "because as a doctor she couldn't get herself involved" or some such thinking. That's a bit hard on her part if it is indeed true.
> 
> I have no doubt the person who used to tell my daughter that "she knew everything my daughter was thinking, and what she would do before she did it" will be getting very different treatment - and I will leave you to guess who that might be




I'm ever the cynic and to be honest, trust people very little, so I would say that the excuse about your daughter not getting involved with her grandad because 'as a doctor she couldn't get herself involved' sounds like a bit of a crock.  From what you've said graham, your daughter sounds like she's just not very interested in anyone who isn't useful to her.  But you know, in all honesty, it's not fair to hold stuff like that against people.  We all just can't help ourselves.  We all have fears and phobias and we're all wired differently and in the final analysis, we're all just trying to get through this life.

And being related to someone means absolutely nothing.  Remember, we chose our friends but family is what we're stuck with.  The hard thing is that when we get old, we are too often forced to rely on family and in an uncomfortable situation like the one you describe, I don't know what the answer is.

I wonder sometimes what lone seniors do in those last years/months when trying to organize care for themselves when there is no family to step in?  Does anybody know?  Do you approach Social Services or something to be the stand in and how much good can that do considering that you continually hear about monstrous case loads.


----------



## Aunt Bea

It has been my experience that nothing is done until they experience an "event" that lands them in the hospital.  If they have a little money then usually a relative turns up and takes over their affairs.  If they are essentially broke then a social worker is assigned and they get sent to the least desirable nursing home available because they do not have an advocate to protest the placement.  When I get to that point please call one of Kevorkian's disciples and send me on my way!


----------



## grahamg

*Thanks for the response*



Debby said:


> I'm ever the cynic and to be honest, trust people very little, so I would say that the excuse about your daughter not getting involved with her grandad because 'as a doctor she couldn't get herself involved' sounds like a bit of a crock.  From what you've said graham, your daughter sounds like she's just not very interested in anyone who isn't useful to her.  But you know, in all honesty, it's not fair to hold stuff like that against people.  We all just can't help ourselves.  We all have fears and phobias and we're all wired differently and in the final analysis, we're all just trying to get through this life.
> 
> And being related to someone means absolutely nothing.  Remember, we chose our friends but family is what we're stuck with.  The hard thing is that when we get old, we are too often forced to rely on family and in an uncomfortable situation like the one you describe, I don't know what the answer is.
> 
> I wonder sometimes what lone seniors do in those last years/months when trying to organize care for themselves when there is no family to step in?  Does anybody know?  Do you approach Social Services or something to be the stand in and how much good can that do considering that you continually hear about monstrous case loads.



Dear Debby,
thank you for the response to my post.

I cannot argue really with anything you've said inspite of my trying to avoid too much cynicism generally, and I would like to think family matters more than you've stated viz a viz friends but some extremely unpleasant events regarding three of my own sisters (out of five sisters, so not all of them thankfully) means I now feel more like you do than was previously the case. My large, extended family, cousins, uncles and so on remain a great asset to me though.

I teased forum members with this last line concerning an "important person" in my daughter's life:
"I have no doubt the person who used to tell my daughter that "she knew everything my daughter was thinking, and what she would do before she did it" will be getting very different treatment - and I will leave you to guess who that might be  "

As no one has ventured a guess I will tell you it is my ex. - my daughter's mother (if it wasn't so obvious no one bothered to respond). My ex. was a good mother to our child, and the better parent to be quite honest (our child told me how caring she was too, if I needed telling). However, like all those who wish to be "the best ever parent" if we agree for now that was her aim, it can go too far can't it, and into an area where "mind control" of the child takes over, similar to some aspects of our religions. That is where I remember hearing something along the lines of "knowing what you think and what you will do before you do it" - that is said to be what God does according to my religious education teachers I think it was, and I think I've heard it said in church too, many times (though the old mind isn't what it was when I was confirmed in the church at 13/14 yrs of age). My ex. by the way, is very anti religion, and said I was being cruel taking our child to church "against her wishes." Hence her own parents, who sent her to Sunday school were equally cruel, you'd have to assume even though my ex. enjoyed an extremely close relationship with her father, (something that made her mother "jealous" possibly, or at least my ex.'s mother said after her husband died aged fifty that he had spoilt my ex.).

I am aware my argument there is getting a bit too convoluted, so I will leave it and thank you again for your interest and I hope I haven't taken the thread too much off topic.


----------



## Butterfly

grahamg said:


> Dear Debby,
> thank you for the response to my post.
> 
> I cannot argue really with anything you've said inspite of my trying to avoid too much cynicism generally, and I would like to think family matters more than you've stated viz a viz friends but some extremely unpleasant events regarding three of my own sisters (out of five sisters, so not all of them thankfully) means I now feel more like you do than was previously the case. My large, extended family, cousins, uncles and so on remain a great asset to me though.
> 
> I teased forum members with this last line concerning an "important person" in my daughter's life:
> "I have no doubt the person who used to tell my daughter that "she knew everything my daughter was thinking, and what she would do before she did it" will be getting very different treatment - and I will leave you to guess who that might be  "
> 
> As no one has ventured a guess I will tell you it is my ex. - my daughter's mother (if it wasn't so obvious no one bothered to respond). My ex. was a good mother to our child, and the better parent to be quite honest (our child told me how caring she was too, if I needed telling). However, like all those who wish to be "the best ever parent" if we agree for now that was her aim, it can go too far can't it, and into an area where "mind control" of the child takes over, similar to some aspects of our religions. That is where I remember hearing something along the lines of "knowing what you think and what you will do before you do it" - that is said to be what God does according to my religious education teachers I think it was, and I think I've heard it said in church too, many times (though the old mind isn't what it was when I was confirmed in the church at 13/14 yrs of age). My ex. by the way, is very anti religion, and said I was being cruel taking our child to church "against her wishes." Hence her own parents, who sent her to Sunday school were equally cruel, you'd have to assume even though my ex. enjoyed an extremely close relationship with her father, (something that made her mother "jealous" possibly, or at least my ex.'s mother said after her husband died aged fifty that he had spoilt my ex.).
> 
> I am aware my argument there is getting a bit too convoluted, so I will leave it and thank you again for your interest and I hope I haven't taken the thread too much off topic.



Hey, Grahamg -- doesn't seem off-topic to me.  I think it is very sad that many families no longer feel obligated to step in and help older relatives, especially when there's no money involved.  I remember my grandparents and parents and aunts and uncles always felt that family ties trumped just about everything else (unless maybe you were a serial killer) and they felt it was a family duty to help the others.  Of course, that was before the days of so many fragmented families and people moving away all over the country and getting divorced and remarried right and left.  I think my grandparents and great-grandparents (and to some extent my parents) were the last generations to value and nurture cohesive multi-generational extensive family.  Sad, really that we've lost that.


----------



## Debby

Aunt Bea said:


> It has been my experience that nothing is done until they experience an "event" that lands them in the hospital.  If they have a little money then usually a relative turns up and takes over their affairs.  If they are essentially broke then a social worker is assigned and they get sent to the least desirable nursing home available because they do not have an advocate to protest the placement.  When I get to that point please call one of Kevorkian's disciples and send me on my way!




As I read your probably very accurate comment, I'm feeling very sad for people in that position.  Yucch is all I can say.  

Do you think that all of what you've said here would be helped if (you had enough money of course) you made a point of registering at a residence well in advance of needing it, and then when you got to the top of the list, just turned it down a few times as you felt able too?  I've thought of doing that in the event that my husband dies first and that way avoiding getting stuck somewhere just because thats all that's open.


----------



## Debby

Butterfly said:


> Hey, Grahamg -- doesn't seem off-topic to me.  I think it is very sad that many families no longer feel obligated to step in and help older relatives, especially when there's no money involved.  I remember my grandparents and parents and aunts and uncles always felt that family ties trumped just about everything else (unless maybe you were a serial killer) and they felt it was a family duty to help the others.  Of course, that was before the days of so many fragmented families and people moving away all over the country and getting divorced and remarried right and left.  I think my grandparents and great-grandparents (and to some extent my parents) were the last generations to value and nurture cohesive multi-generational extensive family.  Sad, really that we've lost that.




I think that many families still do the 'obligatory care of the aging parents',  we just don't hear about them much.  Most of them don't talk about it maybe.  I'm doing the 'obligatory' thing.  I'll be moving back across the country next summer because my mom is turning 81 in December.  Her and I are like oil and water, always have been, but she's my mom and I'll learn to bite my tongue and smile and nod.

But sometimes doing the obligatory thing is so hard it's almost impossible.  My husbands mother was an alcoholic and his brother lived in the same city and she telephoned constantly when deep in her cups and vented her spleen as they say, on Bob and his wife.  She was a horror story in motion that way.  He used to wish he was an orphan and when she had a stroke and couldn't communicate anymore and got sent to a residence for her last year and a half, he was grateful.  How we end up in our last days is a complex issue and I'm sure there were people who worked at my MIL's hospital who felt bad for Grace that no one came to see her regularly, but they didn't know the woman who came before that stroke victim senior.  Sometimes there are legitimate reasons why no one shows up.  Maybe they killed the love.

I think one thing you said Butterfly has a lot of importance, and that's that people move now whereas in the olden days, stayed in the same city, town or village, people stayed and often from birth to death.  Times have certainly changed.


----------



## Aunt Bea

Debby said:


> As I read your probably very accurate comment, I'm feeling very sad for people in that position.  Yucch is all I can say.
> 
> Do you think that all of what you've said here would be helped if (you had enough money of course) you made a point of registering at a residence well in advance of needing it, and then when you got to the top of the list, just turned it down a few times as you felt able too?  I've thought of doing that in the event that my husband dies first and that way avoiding getting stuck somewhere just because thats all that's open.



I don't know how it works in Canada but my experience in the United States is that when the need for a facility comes up you are handed a list of the local nursing homes and asked to pick three, a hospital social worker checks availability and tries to get you into the facility of your choice.  If you demonstrate an ability to pay on your own it definitely helps.  Once in the facility if your money runs out the facilities that accept medicaid will allow you to stay, often times requiring you to move to a shared room, and if they don't accept medicaid you are handed a list of facilities that do and you pick three again, the social worker checks to see if they have room, if they don't you take what is available.


----------



## WhatInThe

Too many issues with no one single answer. And actually there should be little surprise. The seeds for this result were planted long ago and the signs were there if one thinks about them. That doesn't mean a family relationship can't become practical but there are reasons for sayings like "the point of no return" or "it's as good as it's going to get".


----------



## Fyrefox

My late mother was a narcissist who was verbally abusive to my father, my sister, and myself.  A visit home was like taking a bath in battery acid, but my sister and myself always maintained contact with our parents due to love for our father and a sense of obligation to both parents.  A degree of physical separation was necessary, however, in order to ensure our psychological survival as adults against our mother's damaging predations and constant efforts to control and rule our lives.  Family dynamics vary greatly, and it's up to every adult child to determine what they can weather and endure when they have a toxic parent.


----------



## grahamg

*I know what you mean but.....*



Fyrefox said:


> My late mother was a narcissist who was verbally abusive to my father, my sister, and myself.  A visit home was like taking a bath in battery acid, but my sister and myself always maintained contact with our parents due to love for our father and a sense of obligation to both parents.  A degree of physical separation was necessary, however, in order to ensure our psychological survival as adults against our mother's damaging predations and constant efforts to control and rule our lives.  Family dynamics vary greatly, and it's up to every adult child to determine what they can weather and endure when they have a toxic parent.



I think I know what you mean, and my own mother was certainly a difficult person to live with and she did try to take over your life sometimes. However, especially since she's died ironically I have come to understand what she faced, and the pressures other members of the family placed upon her (who you couldn't call narcissistic).

I doubt my daughter could say I was a narcissistic person, maybe she doesn't know me really, so little has she had to do with me over the last twenty years, but what she has said (as a young girl/young woman) is that I "ruined the first twelve years of her life"! So, there are so many things causing relationship breakdown, and I guess most observers would say or think that as my daughter is obviously happy and successful that is all that really matters. Important as it is that she's happy cutting me totally out of her life and as a consequence my grandson's life is a bit tough (I may have said this before   )


----------



## Debby

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't know how it works in Canada but my experience in the United States is that when the need for a facility comes up you are handed a list of the local nursing homes and asked to pick three, a hospital social worker checks availability and tries to get you into the facility of your choice.  If you demonstrate an ability to pay on your own it definitely helps.  Once in the facility if your money runs out the facilities that accept medicaid will allow you to stay, often times requiring you to move to a shared room, and if they don't accept medicaid you are handed a list of facilities that do and you pick three again, the social worker checks to see if they have room, if they don't you take what is available.




My one aunt wanted to be in Menno Home so she put her name in but then turned down a room three times over the space of several years because she was still able to be in her apartment.  The last time they called, she was ready.  And because she'd been a stay at home mom all her life, she had limited finances, but our government covered a good portion of her costs via government pensions.  She was lucky because she had a nice little one bedroom suite.  Tiny but it had a kitchenette and her separate bedroom.

Another aunt of mine didn't plan in advance and then when she was sick, the family scrambled to find a bed somewhere and she spent the next nine years feeling unhappy.  She was stuck in a single room with it's own bathroom.  I've decided that when I get settled and I'm closer to that point in life, I'm going to follow my first aunts example.  I'd like to have a little say in how things go.

It sounds like your system is like ours in that it depends on how much money you have personally.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

I know people in my other networking sites who do not have good relationships with their children and have not seen them in a long time. Some have no hopes of seeing them anytime soon. It IS very sad. I don't know if it's a product of how they were raised: Did they feel they didn't get enough love, were they mistreated or did they have major disagreements that couldn't be resolved. My father and I had a major blow-out when I was 21 and I moved out and stayed with a co-worker until I found a place. But we made up and I remained close to my parents who wound up being a tremendous help with my son. Some young people want to prove they can make it on their own, so they move away. Some may be chasing a dream. Some are so busy trying to live their lives, to survive in this hectic, expensive world that they lose focus on everything other than their personal circumstances.


----------



## peramangkelder

'Someone else said something along the lines of there being no rule that  children and parents will like each other and sometimes life is more  peaceful if you aren't inflicting yourselves on each other'.
Thank you Debby this is absolutely correct and exactly how my daughter and I live our lives. BTW I do like your Groucho Marx disguise


----------



## Dragonlady

Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him  - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought. 
We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
 As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.


----------



## grahamg

Dragonlady said:


> Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him  - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought.
> We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
> As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.



Dear Dragonlady,
I liked your very honest post and assessment of your own life very much (BTW elsewhere I have met a guy calling himself "Dragon" - you're not related are you - just joking these as per a satirical UK magazine called private eye).

If you don't mind I will bore you with some details of another discussion I've initiated "elsewhere" regarding father's rights, where the views of a particular professor called Akira Morita from Tokyo university chime with my own very much (all presented at a "World Family Policy Forum" held in 2000 at Brigham Young University, Utah. Before I do that though, may I say you sound like you did your very best in what must have been a pretty tough start to life. My own parents fell out all the time, but successfully reared seven children and we all had a great sense of security on the farm in Cheshire where I grew up and am now sitting (though I get evicted in a months time due to three sisters manipulating my 95yr old father, who died this year - still that's another story).



http://www.law2.byu.edu/wfpc/forum/2000/WFPF2000.pdf





 Here I would like to point out only that the United States, as the pioneer of the development of children’s law in the twentieth century, is the very country that has experienced most intensively the significance and gravity of the conflict between organic human relations and right based relations. I would like to quote a passage from a dissertation written in 1992 by legal scholar Dr James Lucier that provided a theoretical foundation for the anti-ratification movement: What is missing in the Convention is the underlying idea of rights for families. . . . By endowing the child with legal autonomy, that is to say, enjoying rights independently of the family, the new doctrine puts the family in the position of mere care-givers, bound to the observance of the child’s rights. Every child becomes the adversary of the parents, at least in the potential, and the adversary of brothers and sisters in competition for rights. . . . By destroying the human factor in human relationships, the advocate of autonomy, especially the autonomy of children, will create a society which lacks the principles of cohesiveness and common purpose necessary to its common existence.4 


Break

I do not wish to be understood as suggesting that the concept of children’s rights in itself is completely meaningless. The reality is that within the increasing complexity of modern society, parental authority has become dysfunctional and abusive, and we must recognize that there are many cases in which the child’s right to protection is compelled to take on the role of an emergency fire brigade. Even in such cases, however, we need to remember the words of Josef Goldstein, that “law [and rights] may be able to destroy human relationships, but it does not have the power to compel them to develop.”10 In other words, rights cannot be an Aladdin’s lamp that brings happiness. What children need most is the relationship itself, not an isolated benefit conferred in the name of rights. If we forget that law and rights have such limitations and think of the “Convention on the Rights of the Child” and its catalogue as a “magna carta for children,”11 we will be walking into the myth and fantasy of twentieth century that children’s rights constitute.

Conclusion We have taken a look at two aspects of the paradoxes raised today by the concept of children’s rights. What should we look for in order to head off the dangers pregnant in such paradoxes? I want to conclude by searching for clues in terms of a reassessment of the image of modern man that lies behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy. As I have mentioned, behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy is the surrealistic view of the child as “a little acorn that grows up autonomously.” It soon becomes plain to anyone that this view, when illuminated by the light of ordinary everyday experience, is lacking in realism. It is no more than an idealization and romanticization of autonomy. Nevertheless, why is this concept so highly contagious that it is becoming a fixture in today’s international conventions and conquering the western world? When we get to the bottom of the matter, we arrive at the modernistic image of man, dating from the eighteenth century onward, that regards complete autonomy in itself as a legitimate possibility and holds it up as the ultimate ideal. That is, the ideal depicts the individual as the “lone rights-bearer” who has cast off all restrictions and connections and is self determining and self-contained. What props up this ideal is a passion for emancipation—to throw off the shackles that bind and thereby gain freedom. The appearance of the child’s right to autonomy that we are witnessing today is none other than a symbolic event that tells us that this ideal of modern man has finally reached down, two hundred years after the French Revolution, to the intermediating body positioned as the very basis of society—the family. 
WORLD FAMILY POLICY FORUM 2000


----------



## peramangkelder

My daughter is the personification of Evil pure and simple. 
I do not like her and she does not like me and we are way better living far away from each other with no contact.
Just because she is my child and I am her mother does not mean we must like each other or enjoy each other's company.
We never got on when she was growing up and the situation has only gotten worse.


----------



## grahamg

*Sorry to hear that, as all forum members will be*



peramangkelder said:


> My daughter is the personification of Evil pure and simple.
> I do not like her and she does not like me and we are way better living far away from each other with no contact.
> Just because she is my child and I am her mother does not mean we must like each other or enjoy each other's company.
> We never got on when she was growing up and the situation has only gotten worse.



Dear peramangkelder,
I am sure I speak for all forum members when I say how sorry I am to hear that, and how difficult it must have been for you both.

Its not the best thing to hear when the New Year is upon us all, but your honesty is laudable.

Graham


----------



## peramangkelder

Thank you Graham.


----------



## Debby

Dragonlady said:


> Quite honestly I didn't like my father very much; my mother was hospitalized when I was a little over 4 and died there. I was fostered out to multiple homes until age 13 when he found a home where I was virtually an indentured servant. I rarely saw him  - even tho he lived only 12 miles away when I was in the last home. Nothing I ever did was good enough; when I got A's he complained if I got B's in deportment. Why didn't I get A's, etc. etc. When I did see him he punished me for some sin I'd committed weeks before. The last time he took a belt to me and left welts on my legs. I was 13 - just before he moved me in with the last family I stayed with. When I graduated from High School, I bought my first car - he refused to speak to me for 2 years because he disapproved of the model I bought.
> We kind of patched it up when I got married, but I still saw him rarely. I had started college and completed 2 years when I had to drop out to have my first child. His "I told you so" (never complete the program) didn't sit too well with me. "I will will finish" (he poo pooed me) I did finish - albeit 15 years later. By then I was living on the west coast - 3000 mi away. The only time he ever showed any approval was oddly enough something really weird. In my late 40's I got into motorcycling and I took a solo trip back to New York. He was blown away! I saw him one last time about a year before he died (at age 90). My eldest son went back with me. Dad didn't even recognize him and barely did me. It took me many years to figure out how I really felt about my father, but I felt more comfortable once I did.
> As to my own children, one of my daughters lives with me - as does her only son and his son. The two adults both work but rents in this area are so outrageous neither can afford to live away - and I like the company. Two sons live in Calif. and we are on good terms. We accept what each chooses to give. My second daughter, who also lives in Calif.) is a schizophrenic who blames me for all her misfortunes (even the ones I had nothing remotely to do with). I realize I wasn't the best of mothers (didn't have too many good role models), but I have done my best to atone and am on good terms with the rest of the family. Tho 80, I'm still pretty active and don't depend on them to entertain me or provide for all my social needs.




I think that all we can do is our best and the rest of the world are just going to have to accept it.  And many are still not going to accept you, your efforts or your intentions because their perceptions are skewed for whatever reason.

My mom is like that.  My daughter once said to me, when she had her migraines when a child, she always loved it when I would sit on the edge of her bed with a cold damp cloth for her forehead and talk softly to her in the darkened room and just make her feel safe even though her head hurt so badly.  When I mentioned that, my mom said, 'isn't it too bad that she had to go through that just to feel loved by you'.  Yep, that's what she said.  Keep in mind that my daughter and I have a lovely relationship, have always had a lovely relationship.  

So you can be the best person in the world and there will always be people who will disrespect you in spite of it.  I guess we should just enjoy the ones we feel good with and ignore the other bozo's.


----------



## Brookswood

Debby said:


> My mom is like that.  My daughter once said to me, when she had her migraines when a child, she always loved it when I would sit on the edge of her bed with a cold damp cloth for her forehead and talk softly to her in the darkened room and just make her feel safe even though her head hurt so badly.  When I mentioned that, my mom said, 'isn't it too bad that she had to go through that just to feel loved by you'.  Yep, that's what she said.  Keep in mind that my daughter and I have a lovely relationship, have always had a lovely relationship.



No doubt the psychologists have a word for that attitude.

IMHO, her comment says a lot more about her than you.   Some people have the attitude "Look for the worst in in any situation and magnify it". Very sad. They are their own worst enemy.


----------



## Cookie

I think many people our age were brought up by parents who did not easily express love and affection and were sometimes very strict and even abusive. Strict religious families would not be very much fun to live in. People who went through WWII in Europe sometimes were left with PTSD and suffered from emotional problems, bitterness, anger and violent tempers.  Then there was the depression.  So it wasn't exactly a bowl of cherries for some people. 

Nowadays with movies and the media as well as psychotherapy we have better tools for communicating and interacting with others.  Unfortunately, there are still many negative feelings remaining in children of parents who were not nice to them, some overly critical controlling parents end up alone or neglected with minimal care when they are old.  If a grown child remembers how mean and abusive a parent was when they were a kid, its understandable to me that they would want very little to do with them, especially if that parent is still nasty. Does that child have a duty to care for that parent?  Good question.  That's probably why these old people are left in nursing homes to die alone. Of course that's the extreme.


----------



## Sassycakes

My Parents had 3 children and I was the youngest. My sister was 2 yrs older then me and my brother was 13 yrs older then me. My Parents were the best. Right after my brother got married he was drafted into the army. His wife lived with us until my brother was located at a Base about 2 hours from our home.My Dad would drive all of us to the Base every Friday after work. He would bring money to my brother,bought him a car and when my brother was able to get housing on the base his wife moved in with him and we would still go every week to bring them groceries and other things. When he got out of the army they lived with us for 4 yrs,and had 2 son's while they lived with us. My parents paid for everything they needed even the baby food. My Mom did all the laundry and everything else . After they moved my Dad took them on a 2 week vacation for years.If my Dad bought anything for himself like a TV or dishwasher  He bought the same thing for my brother and his wife. Once the kids were old enough not to need my parents help my brother stopped bothering with my parents ,me and my sister. He very seldom called,sent them a birthday card etc. After my parents passed I tried to keep in touch with my brother ,but he never did the same. He is gone now and so is his wife. When he passed he left all his belongings,house,stocks etc.to one of his boys and cut off the other. I will never understand how he could have treated my parents like that and then turning against his own son. It makes me sad to think of what my parents had to go through, They didn't deserve it.


----------



## Cookie

A sad story, Sassycakes, and very strange behavior on the part of your brother.  Could there be some early family history that you might not know about, perhaps he had psychological problems.


----------



## Dragonlady

It's very hard to know what goes on between individuals when you're on the outside looking in. To the person looking on it may seem there's no understandable reason for certain behaviors. My cousin (my paternal uncle's daughter) thought I was the scum of the earth because I didn't jettison my kids and my job to move back east when my father started failing. She was devoted to her father and virtually gave up her life to care for him; she lived in the same area. My Dad made sure I had little to no contact with any of my family so they were totally unaware of the nature of our relationship (and the cousin had always had a major crush on my Dad, so she was more than a little biased). My step mother's family undertook my Dad's care so I knew he's be well cared for. At the time, I was in my late 50's, recovering from lung cancer and had a good pension I didn't want to lose. Had my step mom's family not stepped in I would have brought him out here. They ultimately had to put him in a nursing home due to his mental status.
Family relationships can be very convoluted - there are all kinds of resentments, jealousy and grudges barely below the surface as well as feelings of favoritism. Just because siblings are born to the same parents, doesn't mean they will like and trust each other as they grow up. They are all different enough to react to the same thing differently. Families can be really nice and supportive - and they can be hell on wheels


----------



## Shalimar

Ooh. Some of these stories made me cry. My heart goes out to you. I have a sad story too. After years of a rocky relationship with my son, I recently asked him to leave me alone until/unless he wants a "real" mother, and to please stop breaking my heart. This followed my ending up sitting in the office of a colleague just before the Xmas break, sitting on his lap, bawling my eyes out. Some 

therapist I am! Lol. He is an older man, Québécois, with eight kids, zillions of grandchildren etc. He picked me up out of my chair, and rocked me back and forth like a child. It was lovely. Once I was calm, he let me have it. "Shalimar, I have known you for twenty five years, your son also. He is perpetuating the toxic family dynamic instituted by your family of origin, and upheld by his father, Peter 


Pan. You were/are a "good enough" mother. Perfect ones don't exist. Warm, loving, supportive, generous---ten grand so his wife could keep her place at law school etc. That should be more than enough. Face it, he enjoys playing  the Victorian father, 

and  holding his mother  to account for every infraction, real or imagined, while being virtually immune from any personal accountability re his behaviour toward you. Nothing you do is ever good enough, he is
ashamed of growing up "poor" in his eyes, unlike his wife who grew up privileged. He is a class whore, who worships Mammon. 

Let him go before this destroys you." Ouch, but Didier is right. I have tried everything I know to find a way to have a healthy relationship with my son. I can't. I concede defeat. I hope someday to be able to release my feelings that somehow I failed him.

It is a terrible thing to realise that you no longer like your son, and haven't for several years.


----------



## Sassycakes

Cookie said:


> A sad story, Sassycakes, and very strange behavior on the part of your brother.  Could there be some early family history that you might not know about, perhaps he had psychological problems.



Truthfully I believe it had something to do with his wife. When they got married she broke all ties with her family and didn't talk to them for many years. After they didn't need my parents help anymore,I believe little by little she turned him against our family. She always picked on my sister and hated my sisters husband. The only time she would be nice to me was when she needed someone to do things for her children. Her favorite phrase was "Go ask Auntie,she'll do it for you". Her oldest child was only 8 yrs younger than I was and he sent me letters all the time after she stopped contact with us. He still calls me a lot and was heartbroken when my parents passed away.


----------



## Aunt Bea

Shalimar said:


> It is a terrible thing to realise that you no longer like your son, and haven't for several years.



When it comes to family, _"You have to love them but you don't have to like them!", o_nce I realized that everything seemed better.


----------



## Shalimar

Aunt Bea said:


> When it comes to family, _"You have to love them but you don't have to like them!", o_nce I realized that everything seemed better.


You are so right.


----------



## grahamg

I was about to start a new thread but if no one minds (obviously too late if someone does but you know what I mean) I will post it here, as it has to do with the topic and is taken from the "World family policy forum" 2000, Brigham Young University, Utah.

I wonder whether anyone will engage with the arguments put forward by Professor Akira Morita of Tokyo University for me? Quote:

www.law2.byu.edu/wfpc/forum/2000/WFPF2000.pdf



Brief extracts:
 "Here I would like to point out only that the United States, as the pioneer of the development of children’s law in the twentieth century, is the very country that has experienced most intensively the significance and gravity of the conflict between organic human relations and right based relations. I would like to quote a passage from a dissertation written in 1992 by legal scholar Dr James Lucier that provided a theoretical foundation for the anti-ratification movement: What is missing in the Convention is the underlying idea of rights for families. . . . By endowing the child with legal autonomy, that is to say, enjoying rights independently of the family, the new doctrine puts the family in the position of mere care-givers, bound to the observance of the child’s rights. Every child becomes the adversary of the parents, at least in the potential, and the adversary of brothers and sisters in competition for rights. . . . By destroying the human factor in human relationships, the advocate of autonomy, especially the autonomy of children, will create a society which lacks the principles of cohesiveness and common purpose necessary to its common existence.

 Break

 I do not wish to be understood as suggesting that the concept of children’s rights in itself is completely meaningless. The reality is that within the increasing complexity of modern society, parental authority has become dysfunctional and abusive, and we must recognize that there are many cases in which the child’s right to protection is compelled to take on the role of an emergency fire brigade. Even in such cases, however, we need to remember the words of Josef Goldstein, that “law [and rights] may be able to destroy human relationships, but it does not have the power to compel them to develop.”10 In other words, rights cannot be an Aladdin’s lamp that brings happiness. What children need most is the relationship itself, not an isolated benefit conferred in the name of rights. If we forget that law and rights have such limitations and think of the “Convention on the Rights of the Child” and its catalogue as a “magna carta for children,”11 we will be walking into the myth and fantasy of twentieth century that children’s rights constitute.


 Abridged Conclusion
 We have taken a look at two aspects of the paradoxes raised today by the concept of children’s rights. What should we look for in order to head off the dangers pregnant in such paradoxes? I want to conclude by searching for clues in terms of a reassessment of the image of modern man that lies behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy. As I have mentioned, behind the concept of the child’s right to autonomy is the surrealistic view of the child as “a little acorn that grows up autonomously.” It soon becomes plain to anyone that this view, when illuminated by the light of ordinary everyday experience, is lacking in realism. It is no more than an idealization and romanticization of autonomy. Nevertheless, why is this concept so highly contagious that it is becoming a fixture in today’s international conventions and conquering the western world? When we get to the bottom of the matter, we arrive at the modernistic image of man, dating from the eighteenth century onward, that regards complete autonomy in itself as a legitimate possibility and holds it up as the ultimate ideal. That is, the ideal depicts the individual as the “lone rights-bearer” who has cast off all restrictions and connections and is self determining and self-contained. What props up this ideal is a passion for emancipation—to throw off the shackles that bind and thereby gain freedom. The appearance of the child’s right to autonomy that we are witnessing today is none other than a symbolic event that tells us that this ideal of modern man has finally reached down, two hundred years after the French Revolution, to the intermediating body positioned as the very basis of society—the family."
 WORLD FAMILY POLICY FORUM 2000, Brigham Young University, Utah.


----------



## Cookie

Shalimar, sorry things are rough for you and your son right now and hope things smooth out.  I brought up my son on my own too and we've had plenty of ups and downs.  I find what we seem to need and what gets us through is to admit our vulnerabilities, admit our mistakes and apologize, even when we are not really to blame, for things that happened years ago, like bad choices, all kinds of things. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us.


----------



## Shalimar

Cookie said:


> Shalimar, sorry things are rough for you and your son right now and hope things smooth out.  I brought up my son on my own too and we've had plenty of ups and downs.  I find what we seem to need and what gets us through is to admit our vulnerabilities, admit our mistakes and apologize, even when we are not really to blame, for things that happened years ago, like bad choices, all kinds of things. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it works for us.


Thanks Cookie. I agree wholeheartedly. I have done my best to stand accountable/apologise, it just never seemed to be enough, and it is one sided.


----------



## Butterfly

Shali, I'm sorry you are going through such a heartbreaking thing.  I'm sending kind and healing thoughts to you!


----------



## Debby

Shalimar said:


> Thanks Cookie. I agree wholeheartedly. I have done my best to stand accountable/apologise, it just never seemed to be enough, and it is one sided.




There are some people in a family that you will never be able to please.  Sometimes they're open about their disdain, sometimes it's more subtle........'family' doesn't always mean 'friend'.  I'm sure sorry too that that's part of your life Shalimar.  I think your therapist friend is exactly right when he says that there isn't a perfect mother anywhere so the person who expects one is expecting the impossible.  

Actually I think most mothers do the best they can.  We each have strengths and limitations and that's just the way it is.  Problem is when those grown kids like in your situation, are still not wise enough to understand that or even to see his own 'limitations' that make him the kind of person that his own mother is willing to leave out of her life, everyone involved winds up unhappy.  So sad for both of you, but from a purely 'happiness' perspective, probably the best thing to do.


----------



## Shalimar

Debby said:


> There are some people in a family that you will never be able to please.  Sometimes they're open about their disdain, sometimes it's more subtle........'family' doesn't always mean 'friend'.  I'm sure sorry too that that's part of your life Shalimar.  I think your therapist friend is exactly right when he says that there isn't a perfect mother anywhere so the person who expects one is expecting the impossible.
> 
> Actually I think most mothers do the best they can.  We each have strengths and limitations and that's just the way it is.  Problem is when those grown kids like in your situation, are still not wise enough to understand that or even to see his own 'limitations' that make him the kind of person that his own mother is will to leave out of her life, everyone involved winds up unhappy.  So sad for both of you, but from a purely 'happiness' perspective, probably the best thing to do.


Thanks Debby, I think you are right.


----------



## Shalimar

Butterfly said:


> Shali, I'm sorry you are going through such a heartbreaking thing.  I'm sending kind and healing thoughts to you!


Thanks, Butterfly. It would be so much easier to bear if I truly understood the cause. I feel as if he stole my last unicorn, the one bright innocent thing of my life. I thought I had done the  work necessary in order to build a solid relationship for the future. Ooh, it is hard to let go of that.


----------



## Cookie

Shalimar, never give up hope that things will work out, maybe not right now, but someday, as long as he knows you will always love him, no matter what. Meanwhile keep being the good person that you are.  :love_heart:


----------



## Shalimar

Cookie said:


> Shalimar, never give up hope that things will work out, maybe not right now, but someday, as long as he knows you will always love him, no matter what. Meanwhile keep being the good person that you are.  :love_heart:


Awww. Thanks Cookie. I feel guilty for shutting him out, but I was going to lose it if I didn't. Sigh. I hope things are resolved sometime in the future. :love_heart:


----------



## BlondieBoomer

Cookie said:


> Shalimar, never give up hope that things will work out, maybe not right now, but someday, as long as he knows you will always love him, no matter what. Meanwhile keep being the good person that you are.  :love_heart:



I agree. Relationships change over time. The good news is they can change back in the other direction too. Sons and daughters mature as they go through their own life experiences and your son may see things differently in a year or two. You just do the best you can and realize that there are things you just can't control.


----------



## Shalimar

BlondieBoomer said:


> I agree. Relationships change over time. The good news is they can change back in the other direction too. Sons and daughters mature as they go through their own life experiences and your son may see things differently in a year or two. You just do the best you can and realize that there are things you just can't control.


Thanks Blondie. Time to embrace the Tao, I guess.


----------



## Debby

Time to embrace the Tao?  Are you meaning 'be open to change'?


----------



## Debby

Shalimar said:


> Thanks, Butterfly. It would be so much easier to bear if I truly understood the cause. I feel as if he stole my last unicorn, the one bright innocent thing of my life. I thought I had done the  work necessary in order to build a solid relationship for the future. Ooh, it is hard to let go of that.




Chalk it up to 'bad wiring' on his part.  Not your fault, you put in the time and the work, but you were dealing with a little gizmo that had a 'spark plug' that wasn't quite right or a weak transistor or something.  Or it's like when you order a piece of furniture that you have to put together but it's missing one bolt or bracket.  Doesn't stop you from putting the thing together, but it's got a wobble forever after that makes you nervous every time you sit down.


----------



## Shalimar

Debby said:


> Time to embrace the Tao?  Are you meaning 'be open to change'?


Yes.


----------



## grahamg

*I can relate to your story*



Sassycakes said:


> Truthfully I believe it had something to do with his wife. When they got married she broke all ties with her family and didn't talk to them for many years. After they didn't need my parents help anymore,I believe little by little she turned him against our family. She always picked on my sister and hated my sisters husband. The only time she would be nice to me was when she needed someone to do things for her children. Her favorite phrase was "Go ask Auntie,she'll do it for you". Her oldest child was only 8 yrs younger than I was and he sent me letters all the time after she stopped contact with us. He still calls me a lot and was heartbroken when my parents passed away.




I apologise for not picking up on your post and story earlier but I can relate to it very much, especially the line "I believe little by little she turned him against our family."


I think that happens in more cases than anyone is prepared to admit, and is obviously reprehensible behaviour


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

fureverywhere said:


> It's also for parents with estranged children and grandchildren as well.
> 
> I don't share this with too many sites. My oldest daughter? I was separated from her Dad when she was fourteen. Always an impulsive kid. She didn't want to move with me. Her boyfriend...and the pregnancy I found out about later. Okay, fine go back with your Dad. Not only did she manipulate her sister long distance...she wouldn't listen to Dad either. My husband really was there for her and still she refused any discipline. He set her to his brother in VA. Sociopath, drunk and ex-junkie...perfect guardian and I couldn't afford a lawyer to fight it.
> 
> At the time they could go before a judge and say I was dead or out of contact. His brother became her legal frickin' guardian. Then she turned on her Dad and me together...Stockholm Syndrome much? Her sister was an honor student. How do you tell a judge you want to block visitation because her sister is the kind of influence you want to protect her from? You can't...and everyone loses in the end. I know some parents are truly evil...but sometimes it's not on us. We did what we could with what we knew at the time. I realize her and her sister are out of my life. Little ******* will probably be crying loudest at the funeral and did Mami leave anything of value?



This stuck in my head from way back when it was posted in March last year and was on my mind all day yesterday. It makes me want to cry. RIP, Leslie.


----------



## WhatInThe

I recently heard a story from someone in which the grandchild got his own mother written out of her dad's will. If the children don't abandon you they will try to manipulate you especially if they see not even weakness but a softy shall we say. At a certain point I think children in particular don't give a hoot especially if life isn't turning out the way they wanted, not what they need but what they want.


----------



## Dragonlady

WhatInThe said:


> I recently heard a story from someone in which the grandchild got his own mother written out of her dad's will. If the children don't abandon you they will try to manipulate you especially if they see not even weakness but a softy shall we say. At a certain point I think children in particular don't give a hoot especially if life isn't turning out the way they wanted, not what they need but what they want.



I suspect the interaction between parents, children and grandparents depends on many things; first their DNA (i.e. their predetermined basic personalities), then the kind of parenting done by each generation (which can determine alterations in basic personalitie's direction) and add to that the culture in which each generation is raised. Most of us try our best with our children, but there are parents out there who should have been born permanently sterile and they contaminate future generations in that family.


----------



## DaveA

I found the opposite to be true of many of our acquaintances.  They glibly announced, after taking an early retirement, that they were off for Florida or Arizona, or some other happy spot for old people.  Most of them had young children, some of them married with kids, but they felt no compulsion about leaving, whether the kids were struggling or not.  Very proud to announce that they had raised them and now were washing their hands of the whole process - - -it was time for them to enjoy life.  We were even chided at times for being concerned about our kids, when they hit a bump or two in the road.  So be it - - - everyone to their own choice.

Now, 20 or so years later, some of these same folks are whining about their children not showing proper concerns for their parents problems.  Health problems, disabilities, death of a husband or wife, and are appalled when the kids don't drop everything and run to their aid.  Family life is a two way street and if you choose to take another street, you do so knowing that it may not lead back to the place where you started.

As I said - - -the choice is ours, but once we make it, we have to live with that choice.  Once made, our family has become the group of old people who we live among and we are no longer a "hands on" member of our real family.  JMHO


----------



## patcaf

I did not have a good relationship with my mother or father and rarely saw them. Many reasons for this but basically there was no love between us although I have younger siblings who did not feel this way. My wife and her mother do not get on. Her mother is 90 and my wife arranges for meals to be delivered, carers to come in etc and does visit three times a year. However it is done out of duty , not out of love. We have a close relationship with our children but they are scattered around the world and we rarely see them or the grandchildren although we speak regularly. That is life. We brought them up to be independent and they have busy successful lives themselves. Will they look after us when we are old? No chance and we do not want them to. I have seen too many lives and relationships ruined by the sheer work involved in looking after older parents. We intend to move to another country shortly. Have we considered our children in this? No we are still in our sixties and have many years of life ahead of us and we will do what we want. Selfish perhaps but life is too short. At one point we uprooted our whole lives to look after our daughter who was seriously ill at the time and we have helped all of them with money etc. We would do it all again but we did not expect anything in return; we did it because we love them. You cannot ruin your children's lives or expect sacrifices from them just because you get old.


----------



## Debby

[I suspect the interaction between parents, children and grandparents depends on many things; first their DNA (i.e. their predetermined basic personalities), then the kind of parenting done by each generation (which can determine alterations in basic personalitie's direction) and add to that the culture in which each generation is raised. Most of us try our best with our children, but there are parents out there who should have been born permanently sterile and they contaminate future generations in that family.]

Good points Dragonlady and I find some of the points that Dave's friends made attractive too.  Unfortunately for me, my own personal sense of guilt wouldn't let me get away with it and it would ruin the fun.  I can also relate to some of the things Pat said.

Aren't we humans a total pain in the ***?


----------



## Dragonlady

Never having had a mother since the age of 4 or 5, I am interested in why many of you have a non-relationship with your mother. When did your negative feelings begin - as a child (age?), a teen-ager or an adult. I had some problems relationship wise when my youngest daughter was a teen, but over the years it has improved. She will probably be the one administering end of life support; therefore I am doing everything I can to take care of myself. I'm doing my best to leave her with as little baggage as possible - up to and including funeral arrangements, and to stay as healthy as possible as long as possible.


----------



## Vega_Lyra

[h=1][/h][FONT=&quot]" Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them. "
  Oscar Wilde[/FONT]


----------



## maplebeez

I learned this weekend, it's not only children abandoning their elderly parents. After hearing from my lovely aunt, by marriage, whom I've stayed in contact with, after she moved to an assisted living facility across the state, calling to tell me she's been diagnosed with terminal cancer.  I immediately contacted her great niece, but before I could finish telling her about Auntie's diagnosis she started yelling that she & her cousins are still angry at Auntie (the last living member of her father's family) for slighting their grandmother, years ago & they refuse to contact her now. The loving Aunt who attended family functions throughout the years & was always generous to them at Christmas, graduations , weddings & on their birthdays. As the old saying goes: May G-d Forgive her......because I can't.


----------



## Debby

That's really sad that other people decided to pick up someone else's 'fight' and embrace it even until the end.  I've spent decades learning how to not hold grudges because they just aren't worth it and in my opinion, the grudge holder loses out as well.  Not only do they deprive themselves of knowing that other person, but mention them and they go into 'fight' mode and suffer all the physical and psychological effects of being angry.  I'm so glad that I can think of my own dad (and look forward to chatting with him on the other side)without getting as angry as I did when I was in my mid twenty's and had just had my first baby(his first grandchild) despite him having walked out on us when I was a kid.


----------



## grannyjo

I am finding it very difficult to re-connect with my son after his tirade.

I was backed up into a corner of the kitchen,  faced with a white faced raging male,  who I was frightened was going to hit me.

Who then said I would never see or hear from him again in my lifetime.

I had accepted that.  I never really expected to hear from him again.

He and I left it for 10 months.  Then he phoned me - told me that he couldn't believe that I didn't come crawling back.

The hurts he hurled at me were just too much for me to take.

He told me that he was sick and tired of hearing about my volunteer job,  my friends,  my family and what I had done with them.  

That's my life -  I go out to do volunteer work - I have friends,  or those with whom I have social interaction,  and I have family,  with whom he has had no contact.

Our three phone calls have been rather stilted,  as you may imagine.

I don't mention my friends,  I don't mention my volunteer job and and I certainly don't mention any member of my family.

I've sort of resorted to discussing the weather,  or the weather where he lives.  He's about 500 k away from where I live.

I'm rather lost at the moment.  I don't really know where to go.


----------



## Warrigal

Oh Dear, Granny, that sounds really awful.

Is there some contributing factor to this behaviour? Alcohol? Some kind of mental illness like bipolar?

As to where to go, I'd make sure that whatever you do or say, make sure that you stay safe.
Who can you talk to about this for some informed advice?


----------



## Shalimar

Granny, how terrible. Of course, I can't diagnose someone I have never met, but that behaviour was not normal. His "excuses" for his behaviour, his resentment you didn't  come crawling back, not normal either. That level of rage is very scary. No remorse, putting it all on you? Whew my psychologist buttons go off big time. Please be very wary of this individual.


----------



## grannyjo

Unfortunately,  it's not only me he has done this to.  He raged at his wife's twin sister when she was visiting,  and she was frightened of him too -  she left and has never gone back to visit her sister.

He has caused a big rift in the relationship between his wife and her parents.

I spoke with his mother-in-law a couple of weeks ago,  and they have had no contact for over 15 months now with their daughter/his wife.  Something they did or said upset him.

He doesn't drink,  he doesn't use drugs.

I do believe he does display some characteristics  of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  He is always right,  anyone who doesn't agree with him is dumb.  He is better than anyone else at whatever he does - in fact he is better than his bosses and can't understand how they hold their job down - he would be better at it than they.  He has no friends because he puts people down by pointing out to them how wrong/ignorant they are if they don't agree with him.

He has the memory of an elephant.  He'll bring up about something that happened 30 or more years ago to try to prove a point.

He is financially secure - he does have a very well paying job and he owns his own home.

It is just that he has such a nasty sort of personality.


----------



## Shalimar

Whew grannyjo, he sounds very difficult indeed. I feel for all of you. I can't imagine his wife is very happy being cut off from members of her family.


----------



## Wilberforce

Sounds to me like this is someone to be very careful of, I cannot advise you bu t if it were me I think I would be seriously considering  letting well alone. I would be worried as I got older how would he be if in my life. Family is family of course but now and again there are some folks who need a wide berth.

Take care of you Granny
XX Jeannine


----------



## grahamg

*My guess is there are more of these types than we think*



grannyjo said:


> Unfortunately,  it's not only me he has done this to.  He raged at his wife's twin sister when she was visiting,  and she was frightened of him too -  she left and has never gone back to visit her sister.
> 
> He has caused a big rift in the relationship between his wife and her parents.
> 
> I spoke with his mother-in-law a couple of weeks ago,  and they have had no contact for over 15 months now with their daughter/his wife.  Something they did or said upset him.
> 
> He doesn't drink,  he doesn't use drugs.
> 
> I do believe he does display some characteristics  of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  He is always right,  anyone who doesn't agree with him is dumb.  He is better than anyone else at whatever he does - in fact he is better than his bosses and can't understand how they hold their job down - he would be better at it than they.  He has no friends because he puts people down by pointing out to them how wrong/ignorant they are if they don't agree with him.
> 
> He has the memory of an elephant.  He'll bring up about something that happened 30 or more years ago to try to prove a point.
> 
> He is financially secure - he does have a very well paying job and he owns his own home.
> 
> It is just that he has such a nasty sort of personality.



My guess would be that there are more of these types of men (and maybe women) than people appreciate.

I once met a very nice lady through a dance class, who relayed a particularly odd and perplexing story concerning her son, and though not quite the same as your situation is maybe worth mentioning here. Her son married a Lebanese Christian woman, and at the marriage ceremony would you believe the lady and her friends/rest of her/her son's side of the family present at the wedding, made a "faut pas" you could say. Instead of remaining wherever the bride was enjoying her wedding after the ceremony or the main room in the hotel, they went into another room, or to another bar in the hotel - I dont think it was an exodus you understand just an "exploration of the hotel" and certainly not intended to cause offence. However, the bride took this move as being totally unacceptable and from that day on she has kept her new husband's mother (this lady I'm talking about) and all the rest of his family from seeing him again. Hard to believe, and why the man doesn't put his foot down and defy her I dont know, but unless the culture in Lebanon gives some kind of explanation of the bride's behaviour (I dont know, maybe it would be widely seen as an horrific act to leave the room where the bride is?), it is a stark example of destructive and intolerant behaviour. I could call it "unchristian" behaviour but I doubt religion has anything to do with it, and more likely the "spoilt madam" this lady's son chose to marry is the simple reason behind it.


----------



## Debby

grannyjo said:


> I am finding it very difficult to re-connect with my son after his tirade.
> 
> I was backed up into a corner of the kitchen,  faced with a white faced raging male,  who I was frightened was going to hit me.
> Who then said I would never see or hear from him again in my lifetime.
> ..............
> Our three phone calls have been rather stilted,  as you may imagine.
> I don't mention my friends,  I don't mention my volunteer job and and I certainly don't mention any member of my family.
> I've sort of resorted to discussing the weather,  or the weather where he lives.  He's about 500 k away from where I live.
> I'm rather lost at the moment.  I don't really know where to go.




I'm so sorry for you that this is part of your life!  How sad for you!  Family can be wonderful and family can be terrible.   I do feel bad for you!  And as someone else here said, be careful of this person, he does sound very violent.

Due to a problem with someone else (a third party in the family) my mother once said the same thing to me and it left me in complete shock.  I remember the wobbly knees and walking home and not even really being aware of the walk because I just was shocked so I understand how you feel.....and while we didn't speak for over a year, now we are again for a few years already but there were lots of conversations about weather too.  I can totally relate!  

It will get better if you give it enough time and if you want it to.  You just have to be patient (but also be careful).


----------



## WhatInThe

I try to avoid family disputes especially if I'm not directly involved. I know people who think they should get involved, say something, hold a grudge etc but the second one chooses a side that battle is on your family and/or friend friend resume forever. Some want that but some don't.

And I try telling people it takes to two to tango shall we say. More than likely one only gets part of the story. If you think in detail about the individuals involved even if you don't see or discover the cause it's still pretty easy to see a why a dispute, grudge or "war" can go on without end.


----------



## lakshmi

jujube said:


> I'm not "estranged" from my daughter.....it's just that I don't seem to have any relevance in her life.  If I want to see her, I have to call and ask her to go to lunch.  Maybe she's too busy, maybe she can fit me in.  She doesn't call me and say, "Mother, I haven't seen you for a while; let's meet for lunch."
> 
> If we're both in town, we'll have Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner.
> 
> There has never been any harsh words between us or any big blow-ups.  As I said before, it's like I'm an aunt that you like but don't see any need to see much of.
> 
> A lot of it is her present husband; he's controlling and has done his best to split her from the family.  He's done a pretty good job. He tried to keep my granddaughter away as much as possible but wasn't successful.
> 
> It is what it is.  I doubt it will ever change.







You hit the nail on the head.


Busy.  Busy .  Busy. Busy. Busy. In a child centered world.


it used to be "children should be seen and not heard"

Then it became more balanced.


Now the children's schedule rules their life.  Sports  practice during the week, and games on the weekend.
Saturday, morning, afternoon, and evening,'
And even Sunday,  morning , afternoon, and evening.

the only friends I know who see their grandchildren are those who are willing to babysit all day (after they raised their own children) ,'at least a few days a week, or make the grand children's sports the center of their lives.

Remember when we were young? All of the stores were closed on Sunday.  No sports games were scheduled on Sunday, 
so Mom made an early Sunday dinner and we all got together to socialize.

I think sports are good in their place, but I'd like to smack the sports nut who got a whole generation of kids playing sports every day of the week, even on Sunday.


----------



## lakshmi

grannyjo said:


> I am finding it very difficult to re-connect with my son after his tirade.
> 
> I was backed up into a corner of the kitchen,  faced with a white faced raging male,  who I was frightened was going to hit me.
> 
> Who then said I would never see or hear from him again in my lifetime.
> 
> I had accepted that.  I never really expected to hear from him again.
> 
> He and I left it for 10 months.  Then he phoned me - told me that he couldn't believe that I didn't come crawling back.
> 
> The hurts he hurled at me were just too much for me to take.
> 
> He told me that he was sick and tired of hearing about my volunteer job,  my friends,  my family and what I had done with them.
> 
> That's my life -  I go out to do volunteer work - I have friends,  or those with whom I have social interaction,  and I have family,  with whom he has had no contact.
> 
> Our three phone calls have been rather stilted,  as you may imagine.
> 
> I don't mention my friends,  I don't mention my volunteer job and and I certainly don't mention any member of my family.
> 
> I've sort of resorted to discussing the weather,  or the weather where he lives.  He's about 500 k away from where I live.
> 
> I'm rather lost at the moment.  I don't really know where to go.






I know what you mean.
My son has been unbelievably cruel to me, so I just let him go.
It also doesn't help being the poor Grandmother, while his in laws are stinking rich with a 
big house where they can stay when they come to town.    I have a very nice apartment now, but he doesn't even 
think of coming here,  



I don't call any of my children, because they never answer their phone.
If you text them , they might text you back in a few days, or not.

So I see them at group events like holidays and birthdays.

They are really hurting their children.
I was seeing one of my daughter's girls more frequently , but now that the oldest started
school, they are busier than ever.
  And the little one really needs her grandmother ,. I am just about 20 minutes away.
  I used to stay overnight and the first thing she said when she got up is
"Where's Grandma?  Where's Grandma?"

They put her in nursery school 3 mornings in a row.  She is having tantrums,  kicking the teacher, 
and was sent home 3 times.

i never had that problem when raising my kids.  They got more attention.


----------



## grannyjo

Even now,  I find it very it very difficult to talk to my son.

We have had a few phone calls,  where I have been very circumspect.  Never mentioned any of the usual things I thought we used to discuss.

The latest development is that he doesn't phone me,  he sends a text message.

I think he has found it just as difficult to talk to me,  as I have found it difficult to talk to him.  Lots of gaps in any conversation.

I truly doubt I will ever see him again.

I certainly wouldn't welcome him into my house again.  Nor would I visit him in his.


----------



## maplebeez

Had a nice visit with our family's Estranged Auntie. Still at 90 the lovely, outgoing lady, I remember. She keeps busy socializing with new friends & participating in various activities offered at her assisted living facility. Over lunch she was happy hearing the latest news about my niece, her dad & her husband; we talked about the "old days," she teased me about "pestering," her with phone calls, gifts & greeting cards, and when the name of my niece's grudge-holding aunt came up, EE said "That girl has run hot & cold, her entire life......you can't change how people feel about one another and I'm sure, at my funeral, she will be the loudest mourner." Auntie is a treasure who didn't deserve being abandoned by her relatives, because of some long forgotten slight, so if they choose not having contact with her......it's their loss.


----------



## Vega_Lyra

maplebeez said:


> I learned this weekend, it's not only children abandoning their elderly parents. After hearing from my lovely aunt, by marriage, whom I've stayed in contact with, after she moved to an assisted living facility across the state, calling to tell me she's been diagnosed with terminal cancer.  I immediately contacted her great niece, but before I could finish telling her about Auntie's diagnosis she started yelling that she & her cousins are still angry at Auntie (the last living member of her father's family) for slighting their grandmother, years ago & they refuse to contact her now. The loving Aunt who attended family functions throughout the years & was always generous to them at Christmas, graduations , weddings & on their birthdays. As the old saying goes: May G-d Forgive her......because I can't.


----------



## WhatInThe

maplebeez said:


> Had a nice visit with our family's Estranged Auntie. Still at 90 the lovely, outgoing lady, I remember. She keeps busy socializing with new friends & participating in various activities offered at her assisted living facility. Over lunch she was happy hearing the latest news about my niece, her dad & her husband; we talked about the "old days," she teased me about "pestering," her with phone calls, gifts & greeting cards, and when the name of my niece's grudge-holding aunt came up, EE said "That girl has run hot & cold, her entire life......you can't change how people feel about one another and I'm sure, at my funeral, she will be the loudest mourner." Auntie is a treasure who didn't deserve being abandoned by her relatives, because of some long forgotten slight, so if they choose not having contact with her......it's their loss.



I know someone like that and one of their kids might see them once a year with some phone contact. They've had debilitating injury and need with their kid a no show. Big holiday blowout years ago which was nothing but a 1/2 century of history and/or issues coming to the surface. Other family wonders why no true reconciliation and I try to tell them it takes two to tango, you don't know the whole story etc. Certain combinations of people including family simply don't mix, won't mix and will hold a grudge frequently justified. Some say I should have more interest in the feud and/or try to "fix" it. It's not my business and the combatants must want to "fix" things.

Over the last few months I seen them in other than formal settings and if their behavior & moods are an indicator I see why a child might want as little to do them as possible. I try to avoid family disputes but if you look at the relationship and people hard enough you can see why. But 'why' doesn't matter. If one treats me good that's all that matters. It's not my job let alone decision to attempt to broker a peace.


----------



## joel0711

Finally, I believe the "Me First" mindset that has been foisted upon us  by the media has taken a firm grip on younger minds, giving them - in  their minds, anyway - not only the option but the _right_ to ignore everyone but their own fine selves.[/QUOTE]
Actions without consequences again.--------

Gotta agree---- daughter is approx 3 miles from us and we're having to evict her for non-payment of house,,,,,AND OF COURSE it's all our fault....


----------



## Shalimar

Sadly the me first attitude can go both ways. My mother who was a professional, was totally absorbed in herself and her  career. Being a parent was a hideous inconvenience, this never changed even after I became an adult. I found it impossible to love her.


----------



## WhatInThe

joel0711 said:


> Finally, I believe the "Me First" mindset that has been foisted upon us  by the media has taken a firm grip on younger minds, giving them - in  their minds, anyway - not only the option but the _right_ to ignore everyone but their own fine selves.


Actions without consequences again.--------

Gotta agree---- daughter is approx 3 miles from us and we're having to evict her for non-payment of house,,,,,AND OF COURSE it's all our fault....[/QUOTE]

It's never their 'fault'. Then they would have to admit they screwed up instead it's just one of those things, bad luck, hard times etc. Those gosh darn pesky house payments.


----------



## helenbacque

Reading this entire thread was painful.  I sincerely hope that the passage of a little time has eased some of the hurt. 

My 2 cents ......  I've always thought that it was entirely possible to love someone but not like them very much and that's sometimes the case in families.  And that's OK.  It's also OK  to let self-preservation by separation step in when dealing with a toxic person, be it parent, child or otherwise.


----------



## JaniceM

Having existed for multiple decades, it seems to me there's been one issue after another that's contributed to the entire concept of FAMILY breaking apart;  and on this particular aspect of the problem, for quite some time there have been 'pop psych' and 'self-help' individuals telling young people _"All families are DYSFUNCTIONAL!  You don't need THOSE PEOPLE!  Get NEW FAMILIES!"  _Most recently, I even read it in a Dear Abby column (written by the original columnist's daughter), and- get this-  in a so-called Mothers Day article in a local newspaper.  

From my viewpoint, if parents are truly abusive/neglectful/etc., adult-aged kids 'owe' them nothing...  but if parents did what they could to be good parents, adult-aged kids 'owe' them basic respect and a continued relationship.  
I'm more than steamed over these authors and columnists insisting parents must have made some mistakes, so throw them away and get new ones.


----------



## joel0711

We are going thru this at present----- We feel for anyone in this situation!!


----------



## LouieLouie

Mom. What can I say? 
My mom cut ties with me several times and then I got 'the talk' from my brother about not trying to get back together with my mom. After 6 years the first time, we got back together. I had grand kids and she wanted to see them.
The next time she cut me off for 13 years. Over a disagreement about a dog.
We got back together. I'd visit often from 4 hrs away.

Then my husband got cancer and I had to put priorities first. Hubby needed care and not I couldn't visit mom.
She got angry and told me my husband should just die and then I'd have more time for her. 

I still tried to be there for her. When I called she'd get angry because I wasn't there when she got sick. I asked her why my sister hadn't told me or perhaps why her neighbor hadn't called. After all, everyone has my numbers in case of an emergency. 

The drama needs to be on her time and with her as the centerpiece. So why doesn't this daughter call? 60+ years of self centered drama is done.


----------



## Cffortin

I have 3 daughters. Only one speaks to me.  Two oldest are mad at me and won't talk to me.  Sonething I said and/or did.  Cslled them and apologized but not good enough.  One is absent for almost 5 years and other almost 10 months.  Sometimes I'm glad because they are both a bit unusual.  Their father was from first marriage.  Father had schizophrenic. I think they may have inhereted a few of his genetics that make them that way.  this was passed down from the fathers family. Martied at 17 and first child at 18.  WAY too young.  Wish I could do my life over!


----------



## Cffortin

I know how you feel.  Same way with me
  Thanks very much for not feeling guilty not wanting to see 2 of my three girls.


----------



## Shalimar

Cffortin said:


> I know how you feel.  Same way with me
> Thanks very much for not feeling guilty not wanting to see 2 of my three girls.


Just because we are blood relations, it doesn't necessarily follow that we relate to each other. For many, true family consists of the people who treat us well.


----------

