# Why is estrangement always the parents fault?" - (not my words)



## grahamg (Jun 25, 2020)

A professional in psychotherapy has on her website a discussion on the thread title topic, taken from a message received someone who contacted her.

Here is their questions to the psychotherapist, and the website link where this all comes from, plus a further question/story and the experts response:
https://tinagilbertson.com/estrangement-parents-fault/

Quote:
_“I have the same question as I have with all other articles I read:  why is it that the parents have to acknowledge and profess blame for everything?  Why do they have to accept as true whatever the child says or believes, and has to learn the error of their ways?  Yet, the child does not have to undergo any introspection into the reality of their beliefs?

“Maybe that’s why they are the way they are – narcissistic spoiled brats who think they are always right and refuse to accept that maybe their view of their parent is not reality.  Why isn’t the parent’s view of the situation reality? Isn’t it possible that there is some truth to both parties’ views, and that to have a true healthy relationship they both need to acknowledge that and say ‘I’m sorry’ and forgive?  Maybe the child needs to accept that whatever faults a parent might have, there is such a thing as FORGIVENESS?”_

Expert response:
"Whose view of reality is the correct one (and I’m not convinced there is such a thing as a correct view, let alone “reality,” when any two people get together) is irrelevant when you’ve been rejected.

*If someone – anyone – cuts you out of their lives, you lose the luxury of demanding fairness*."

Break

Second message:
"I read your articles and my heart remains broken. My 27 year old son will have no contact with me for the past year since his graduation from university and then two years prior to that. No arguments, no fights, just silence. No way to contact him. I have apologized for whatever I have done but no response. Just silence. I have started counselling to try to deal with my pain of rejection and to learn how to keep my heart open but move on with my life. It is so hard. I think about him every day. Every night. I love him very much and I want to apologize for whatever I have done to so deeply hurt him. But how? No contact. I try to stay hopeful, but I just don’t know what to do."

Expert response:

I am so very sorry for your pain. You may or may not have anything to apologize for; sometimes young people create distance from parents in order to make their passage into adulthood easier (see my posts on Differentiation).
If you have apologized well (see How to Apologize for tips) for anything you feel the need to apologize for, he may just need more time. The hard part you’ve done all you can, and the only thing left to do is grieve and take stock of where you are.
No article will mend a broken heart. Only time, understanding and compassion can do that.
I wish you peace. Thanks so much for sharing your comment.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 25, 2020)

Trust me estrangement is not only the parents fault
I did everything humanly possible for my 2 children except I divorced their father 
Now I am estranged from my 2 adult children
"How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to *have a thankless child*!"
From King Lear


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## Keesha (Jun 25, 2020)

There’s two sides to every story.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 25, 2020)

Keesha said:


> There’s two sides to every story.


There is but my children do not want to listen so over the years I do not try any more
My ex-husband was abusive and I figured I had given enough of my life to him after 37 years
Once my 2 kids had left home I decided I did not want to live that way any more so I divorced him


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## grahamg (Jun 25, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> There is but my children do not want to listen so over the years I do not try any more
> My ex-husband was abusive and I figured I had given enough of my life to him after 37 years
> Once my 2 kids had left home I decided I did not want to live that way any more so I divorced him


I believe you, and I can recommend a book written by Penny Cross called "Lost children" detailing the way she lost contact with all four of her children following a difficult separation and divorce, and went on to help others in a similar situation.


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## jujube (Jun 25, 2020)

Keesha said:


> There’s two sides to every story.



Usually there are three sides: my side, your side, and what _actually _happened.


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## Keesha (Jun 25, 2020)

jujube said:


> Usually there are three sides: my side, your side, and what _actually _happened.


Yes but whose version of ‘what actually happened ?’ are you going to accept? Every person has their own perception and no two perceptions are exactly the same. Nobody is completely unbiased.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 25, 2020)

I can ONLY accept my version because I am the one who lived my life as lousy as it may be to someone else


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## peramangkelder (Jun 25, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I believe you, and I can recommend a book written by Penny Cross called "Lost children" detailing the way she lost contact with all four of her children following a difficult separation and divorce, and went on to help others in a similar situation.


Thank you @grahamg


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 25, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> I can ONLY accept my version because I am the one who lived my life as lousy as it may be to someone else


When my daughter was 18 I spoke to her about divorcing her dad.  She said if I did she would never speak to me again.  One of the many reasons I am still married.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 25, 2020)

My children were both in their mid 30's so I did not have to ask their permission


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## Lizzie00 (Jun 25, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Every person has their own perception and no two perceptions are exactly the same.


Yeah.
Two different perceptions are two different takes on reality.
And we each think what we think.
Oh, well.


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## win231 (Jun 25, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> There is but my children do not want to listen so over the years I do not try any more
> My ex-husband was abusive and I figured I had given enough of my life to him after 37 years
> Once my 2 kids had left home I decided I did not want to live that way any more so I divorced him


He was probably abusive to you _and your kids._  When the kids grew up, they may have resented you for your choice of him & also your choice to stay with him.
I had similar thoughts; my mother was abusive & I had some resentment for my father for allowing her to abuse us.  She'd threaten to leave him & that was enough to let her do whatever she wanted.   Consequently, we had little respect for our father.  A real father doesn't allow _*anyone *_to abuse his kids.  And that includes the woman he's sleeping with.


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

jujube said:


> Usually there are three sides: my side, your side, and what _actually _happened.


Those words condemn the one out of the three, who might be telling the truth, (or more likely to try to tell the truth), equally to any one of the other two who believes telling the truth is a mugs game!    .


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

win231 said:


> He was probably abusive to you _and your kids._  When the kids grew up, they may have resented you for your choice of him & also your choice to stay with him.
> I had similar thoughts; my mother was abusive & I had some resentment for my father for allowing her to abuse us.  She'd threaten to leave him & that was enough to let her do whatever she wanted.   Consequently, we had little respect for our father.  A real father doesn't allow _*anyone *_to abuse his kids.


We've learnt on another thread, (and some of us in their own lives), that the words "*real father" *can mean whoever anyone wishes to apply it to.

Putting that to one side, w(hilst just quickly adding how easy it is to condemn a parent in some peoples eyes, we haven't for example seen any evidence the husband of thirty seven years, to our forum friend, abused his children at all have we?), it is the expert featured in the OP, it is her job to put forward the notion parents can seek advice and thereby overcome problems. This can happen, or there would be no need for counselling, but it can't provide an automatic solution, or all counsellors/teachers and the like would enjoy perfect relationships with their children.

However, I have one more difficulty with the OP expert, and I'll try to explain it.

My difficulty with the OP view, is the idea close interpersonal relationships each of us seek in general, and particularly concerning our own children, those close relationships are "unique" if they are anything. Training parents has this inherent flaw, if you follow a "formula" for a successful relationship with your child, you deny them, and yourself, as an inevitable consequence, a "unique" loving relationship.  Its not ever going to be unique, if you start to think you've learned your parenting skills, or interpersonal skills, from a book, or a counsellor.  .


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## jerry old (Jun 26, 2020)

Therapist are just as prone to error as plumbers.
When a plumber screws up, you smell it.
Therapist errors may never be detected.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 26, 2020)

You know @jerry old you're right because most Marriage Guidance Counsellors are divorced at least once


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 26, 2020)

win231 said:


> He was probably abusive to you _and your kids._  When the kids grew up, they may have resented you for your choice of him & also your choice to stay with him.
> I had similar thoughts; my mother was abusive & I had some resentment for my father for allowing her to abuse us.  She'd threaten to leave him & that was enough to let her do whatever she wanted.   Consequently, we had little respect for our father.  A real father doesn't allow _*anyone *_to abuse his kids.  And that includes the woman he's sleeping with.


You are right in this.  Although my mother was my main abuser, I resented her even more for not stopping my father when he beat me.  I remember one really severe beating from him where he closed the bedroom door and she stood outside listening.  As a child, I hated her for not at least opening the door and telling him to stop.


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## win231 (Jun 26, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> You are right in this.  Although my mother was my main abuser, I resented her even more for not stopping my father when he beat me.  I remember one really severe beating from him where he closed the bedroom door and she stood outside listening.  As a child, I hated her for not at least opening the door and telling him to stop.


Frequently, when the man is the main abuser, the woman doesn't intervene because she doesn't want him to leave her due to insecurity, low self esteem or financial reasons, especially if he's the main source of income.  The wife is willing to sacrifice her children's well being rather than risk losing her "man."
When the woman is the abuser, she'll threaten to leave the man if he intervenes, & if he has low self esteem (like my father did), he won't risk losing her because he thinks no one else would want him.  He'd rather sacrifice his children's well being than risk losing his woman.


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

Lizzie00 said:


> Yeah.
> Two different perceptions are two different takes on reality.
> And we each think what we think.
> Oh, well.


There are occasionally fathers out there, not prepared to accept the argument "there are two different perspectives on reality".

During my fathers rights campaigning days, a group of us went to Somerton, in Devon, UK, (or was it Somerset?, it matters not!). Anyway, after we'd done our protest or picket, we decided to go to the local pub, to take advantage of the local attraction, or a amenities.

When asked by the landlord what we'd been doing, he chose to explain his situation. I think it safe to say the man did bear a grudge, or refuse to be had for a fool, which are two sides of the same coin aren't they(?). He said he'd refused to have anything to do with any of his four children, after they'd sided with their mother, against him, and the courts had fleeced him. When he complained to the judge he'd been unfairly treated, the judge told him, "You're a capable man, you'll get back on your feet" as justification, (hence he was descriminated against for being hardworking and enterprising).

Two of his sons decided to try to get in touch years later, but he wouldn't tolerate any of them, or give in.

A friend of mine said he wouldn't have tolerated the way I was treated during gmy divorce, years of manipulation going on behind the scenes, those in positions of power chose to ignore etc., but as I've said, we're all different, and being "unique, or believing you're unique as a parent", isnt something you should give up lightly. Others take a more be!ligerant view, and counsellors can look elsewhere for someone to pay them fo their advice.   .


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## Pepper (Jun 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Two of his sons decided to try to get in touch years later, but he wouldn't tolerate any of them, *or give in.*


No fool like an old fool and a bitter one at that.  Sad to hear of someone so unforgiving.  Wouldn't be surprised to learn he's a lonely old goat.

"or give in."  Gee, a real man, hey?  Yup.  Sad.


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## JaniceM (Jun 26, 2020)

win231 said:


> Frequently, when the man is the main abuser, the woman doesn't intervene because she doesn't want him to leave her due to insecurity, low self esteem or financial reasons, especially if he's the main source of income.  The wife is willing to sacrifice her children's well being rather than risk losing her "man."
> When the woman is the abuser, she'll threaten to leave the man if he intervenes, & if he has low self esteem (like my father did), he won't risk losing her because he thinks no one else would want him.  He'd rather sacrifice his children's well being than risk losing his woman.


It's one of the many subjects I've thought of in recent years for which I'll never know because there's no one left to ask..  but I've wondered if the reason- or at least a reason- that my father never left 'her' was possibly because of the laws of the times:  it was virtually impossible for a father to gain custody of the kids, no matter how unfit the mother was.  In other words, if he left 'her,' it would have amounted to leaving 'us,' too.


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## Judycat (Jun 26, 2020)

Ah let the kids go and get on with your life.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 26, 2020)

Judycat said:


> Ah let the kids go and get on with your life.


The problem is, is most people simply cannot let it go.  I know I couldn‘t/can’t, as far as my parents are concerned.  But I am very close with my children.  I could never let my children go.


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## Judycat (Jun 26, 2020)

If you are close that's ok but if your kids continue to estrange themselves let them go. If they come around again great. If they don't, get on with your life and quit beating yourself up.


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## Judycat (Jun 26, 2020)

I live where parents are being ripped off by not only their adult children, but the grandchildren as well. The adult children live nearby and threaten to move if they don't get what they want. Mine have their own lives. This is an oddity among the people in my area. I am relieved mine are doing well and are able to take care of their families. We aren't estranged but we aren't daily involved with each other either. Well one text in the evening from me to my youngest son to let him know I'm still alive.


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

Pepper said:


> No fool like an old fool and a bitter one at that.  Sad to hear of someone so unforgiving.  Wouldn't be surprised to learn he's a lonely old goat.
> 
> "or give in."  Gee, a real man, hey?  Yup.  Sad.


You can say, or think whatever you wish, but the judge he came in front of thought him no fool did he, and they're not all stupid. The man pulled himself up by his bootlaces, and that's to be admired, and he didn't look like a man incapable of making his own decisions about his own private life.

"It wouldn't do for everyone to think alike" as someone close to me used to say.    .


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## jerry old (Jun 26, 2020)

It would help to know if your parent was insane.   
(I'm not addressing any particular post.)

I am not speaking in the vernacular, I mean truly insane-what we would
legally term insane.
How is a kid to determine if a parent is insane?

The other parent usually knows his spouse is insane,
but covers for her.
What occurs in the home is hidden.

If the kid knew a parent was insane, would it help?
It helps greatly, once the child becomes an adult, but while
their living it as a kid-no.


If outsiders (relatives...) visit the insane parent can hold it
together until they leave.

This post is not an opinion.


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

jerry old said:


> It would help to know if your parent was insane.
> (I'm not addressing any particular post.)
> Break
> This post is not an opinion.


Your post is a bit of a surprise, (but that's fine, I like surprises most of the time?)!     .

When you say insane, can you explain the use of the word a little more, for example do you mean temporarily insane, or just full of a range of psychological problems, or "certifiably insane"?  .


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## Pepper (Jun 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You can say, or think whatever you wish, but the judge he came in front of thought him no fool did he, and they're not all stupid. The man pulled himself up by his bootlaces, and that's to be admired, and he didn't look like a man incapable of making his own decisions about his own private life.
> 
> "*It wouldn't do for everyone to think alike*" as someone close to me used to say.    .


And his sons, the ones who sought reunification, they were responsible for what a judge decreed?  I'm so glad I don't think like you, dear.


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## jerry old (Jun 26, 2020)

Straight out of the DSM, there are psychotics, severe paranoids and every other type of crazed  parents  out there  imprinting their children.  The other household adult members do nothing to alter the dynamics.
Why?
Economics is the primary reason:

We can agree, a raving lunatic is not helpful to child rearing.

However, it is the insidious, biting and demeaning comments of an emotionally
damaged parent that destroys a child.  The constant barrage of 'your worthless.'
statements issued by the parent forms the child's world view.  
It is doubtful this child after fifteen years of destruction will ever become a 'normal' member of society.
(Assaults upon children are covered in the post above)

Moreover, she/he   use many of the same techniques learned in his/her home of
origin to 'discipline' his own children. 

I must mention assaults that destroy the spirit-the parent that makes the child become a participating member of their own assault is a monster.
"You get out there and cut me a good stout switch, if it ain't stout enough I've wear it out on you and then get me a good switch."


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

Pepper said:


> And his sons, the ones who sought reunification, they were responsible for what a judge decreed?  I'm so glad I don't think like you, dear.


You've perhaps misunderstood the landlord we're arguing about here. The issue he had with his four children was their siding with their mother against him, not whatever the judge said making his decisions about the man's finances he felt was unjust, (that's a peripheral issue, nothing to do with his holding a grudge against his own children). I know and totally accept the guy was being harsh with his own flesh and blood you could say, and my own dad fell out with my grandfather in connection with an issue over money, and both thought the world of the other. In their case a friend of my grandfather told him off for being intransigent, and my father said his dad went back to being as he always had been before as a result, (no split loyalties or divorce to cause any trouble there though).    .
(BTW Its still absolutely fine by the way neither of us wishes to think like the other).


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Straight out of the DSM, there are psychotics, severe paranoids and every other type of crazed  parents  out there  imprinting their children.  The other household adult members do nothing to alter the dynamics. Why? Economics is the primary reason: We can agree, a raving lunatic is not helpful to child rearing. However, it is the insidious, biting and demeaning comments of an emotionally damaged parent that destroys a child.  The constant barrage of 'your worthless.' statements issued by the parent forms the child's world view.
> It is doubtful this child after fifteen years of destruction will ever become a 'normal' member of society. (Assaults upon children are covered in the post above) Moreover, she/he   use many of the same techniques learned in his/her home of origin to 'discipline' his own children.
> I must mention assaults that destroy the spirit-the parent that makes the child become a participating member of their own assault is a monster.
> "You get out there and cut me a good stout switch, if it ain't stout enough I've wear it out on you and then get me a good switch."


I think I'm with you now, and agree much damage is done just as you describe.  .


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## Pepper (Jun 26, 2020)

@grahamg
 OK


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

Here are some controversial views on parenting I found a day or two ago, (apologies if I've posted some of this before?):

*PARENTS?”*

https://markmanson.net/parents

"Obviously abusive parents _damage_ their kids up. But that’s likely due to the fact that they give the kids traumatic experiences, not because there’s anything special to do with them being a parent. Childhood traumas are childhood traumas whether they are caused by a parent, a teacher, a bully at school, or an attack by angry velociraptors.

It used to be thought that a child’s ability to form intimate relationships was determined by its relationship to its parents as an infant. But it has since been found that it is determined by a child’s relationship to _any caregiver_ as an infant, whether that caregiver is a parent, an aunt, a family friend, the milkman, or Charlie Sheen. In fact, a lot of research suggests that outside of major traumas, our peer group and social life as a child has _far more_ influence on our self-perception, our self-worth, and who we eventually become than our parents do.

What I mean is, on average, statistics show: _poor_ parents in a good environment are better than good parents in a _poor_ environment. Environment simply matters more. A lot of this isn’t easy to read. If you had particularly _poor_ parents and you’ve held onto the belief that your life’s problems come from how your parents mistreated you, your stomach may be rolling right now. Or you may already be halfway through sending me a hate email telling me how wrong I am (notice all of the footnotes with research, they’re there for a reason). And you may be even more _upset_ if you’re a parent and you’ve spent years planning how little Junior is going to get EVERYTHING HE NEEDS NO MATTER WHAT EVEN IF I HAVE TO PUT HIM ON A LEASH AND VIDEOTAPE HIM 24 HOURS A DAY.
Break
Because this is the whole thing: it’s not about mom and dad. Mom and dad are actually just one piece of a larger equation here. This is both frightening and liberating. It’s impossible to ever completely screw your kid up. But it’s impossible to make them perfect too."


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## JaniceM (Jun 26, 2020)

Or, as I eventually came to describe it:  _"In desperation, there is Quicksand"... _


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## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Or, as I eventually came to describe it:  _"In desperation, there is Quicksand"... _


I do know many parents probably do feel desperate, whether it be caused by strain in their relationship, or financial pressures, or just living up to expectations placed upon them to behave as though they can " make them perfect", (or their children perfect, to quote the last line written by the controversial guy above).
I guess the "quicksand" comments refers to the situation facing the child, but returning to the above controversial bloke, his thinking he says, is based upon the research and expertise found in many government funded and authoritative social science papers, listed in the bibliography.    .


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## peramangkelder (Jun 27, 2020)

So many opinions which I applaud about parenting etc
When I was a child a female cat would have made a better mother than mine
My mother was ALWAYS negative to me and I can never remember her hugging me or praising me
She told me it was my fault she had to marry dad....yes she was pregnant when they married
My father was not much better because he had done 2 stints in prison for embezzlement
I became my sister's carer when I was 8 years old and she was 5
We always came home to a cold house and I got both of us bathed and ready for bed and evening
meal started before my mother came home from work
I vowed and declared I would be a 'stay at home mum' for my children....and I was which I enjoyed
I did not know at the time we married but my ex-husband was a compulsive gambler....I can sure pick'em hey
Once the children were at school I got a part time job to help pay the mortgage on our home
Ex almost bankrupted us twice and asked me to sign over my share of the house so he could use it for a bet
I could NOT believe what I was hearing but I refused
I asked him what would happen to the kids and me if he lost the house
He said and I quote "I would go live with Mum and you 3 could live in the car"
I doubt anyone here now would blame me for eventually divorcing him
However our two 30+ adult kids blamed me for everything....go figure????
There were two people in my life who meant the world to me....my paternal grandparents
They taught me how to behave and gave me their lifetime of experiences and I loved them dearly
Nothing was ever too much trouble for them and I think of them every day and still miss them terribly


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## JaniceM (Jun 27, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I do know many parents probably do feel desperate, whether it be caused by strain in their relationship, or financial pressures, or just living up to expectations placed upon them to behave as though they can " make them perfect", (or their children perfect, to quote the last line written by the controversial guy above).
> I guess the "quicksand" comments refers to the situation facing the child, but returning to the above controversial bloke, his thinking he says, is based upon the research and expertise found in many government funded and authoritative social science papers, listed in the bibliography.    .



If a person is both knowledgeable and truthful, he (or she) will state that all he can relate from are his own personal experience, _theories _from others, or a combination of both.  

I've heard it said topics pertaining to kids-  child-care, child-raising, etc. etc.-  are among the "most, and most ongoing" topics... generational differences, cultural differences, and so forth.  I suppose it's because most people have children, so every time you turn around there's another 'expert' putting in what really amounts to his 'two cents.'  As only one example:  mothers in the distant past were told to never pick up their babies except to feed/change them;  more recently, they were told to not only wear their babies but to sleep with them.  
At least the guy you quoted from stated on his website that he's "Just some guy who reads a lot."  

If you place stock in so-called experts, perhaps you're not familiar with what happened to this young woman and her family:  https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-...cia-Burgus-and-Multiple-Personality-Disorder/
And to update:  after the state yanked Braun's medical license, he "snuck off" to another state and started practicing there.  

As for me, I speak from personal experience-  and then back it up with 'this is what various others say about these things.'  'Others' were as diverse as average individuals who had similar experiences to those who have done plenty of research in their particular fields.  

When I started my first writing gig, the company owner asked "So, what topics are you an expert on?"  My immediate reaction:  "Define 'expert.'"  Personal experiences alone do not necessarily make a person an expert-  except on his own personal experiences.  There's much so-called 'self-help' material that proves this.
However-  even a license does not guarantee an individual is an 'expert' either-  as proven by Braun, and, even more notably, the "counselor"/social worker who started Mrs. Burgus's nightmare.  Too often it all goes on trends-  later shown to be invalid.


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## JaniceM (Jun 27, 2020)

jerry old said:


> It would help to know if your parent was insane.
> (I'm not addressing any particular post.)
> _It's said Cluster B Personality Disorders-  in this case NPD-  do not meet the criteria for 'insane.'  https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/M'Naghten+Rule  because a person knows exactly what they are doing, and that it's wrong.  _
> 
> ...


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## grahamg (Jun 27, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> If a person is both knowledgeable and truthful, he (or she) will state that all he can relate from are his own personal experience, _theories _from others, or a combination of both.
> 
> I've heard it said topics pertaining to kids-  child-care, child-raising, etc. etc.-  are among the "most, and most ongoing" topics... generational differences, cultural differences, and so forth.  I suppose it's because most people have children, so every time you turn around there's another 'expert' putting in what really amounts to his 'two cents.'  As only one example:  mothers in the distant past were told to never pick up their babies except to feed/change them;  more recently, they were told to not only wear their babies but to sleep with them.
> At least the guy you quoted from stated on his website that he's "Just some guy who reads a lot."
> ...


Thanks for finding the guy I quoted claims just to read a lot, there is too much information to pick out everything he's said, but I'm surprised his website came so high up on the google search first page(?).

I've probably repeated everything I have to say too many times now to be worth repeating, or boring everyone with again. The " obvious thing", though, is if you "knew", or even thought there was a strong possibility you'd be rejected or excluded as a parent, then this would inevitably influence the way you behaved towards your own child. If this is so, as I believe it is, and all the fathers rights campaigning, listening to so many opinions hasn't convinced me otherwise, its a cruel affair in my view.

Do your best, and its never good enough, and all you're doing is being made a mug of, even by your own child I'm afraid.   .


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## Sassycakes (Jun 28, 2020)

*I only know about my Dad's mother and how she treated her children. At one time or another she turned against all of her 8 children. My Dad she turned against him and my Mom and then my brother ,sister and me. She continued to do it to each child of hers for different reasons. How she acted even passed down to her grandchildren and now in each family one sibling turned against their brother or sister. Luckily me,my sister and brother never followed the trend*


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## grahamg (Jun 28, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *I only know about my Dad's mother and how she treated her children. At one time or another she turned against all of her 8 children. My Dad she turned against him and my Mom and then my brother ,sister and me. She continued to do it to each child of hers for different reasons. How she acted even passed down to her grandchildren and now in each family one sibling turned against their brother or sister. Luckily me,my sister and brother never followed the trend*


I admire your attitude, but there is something very odd in the behaviour of my own mother, who had eight children who lived, (her first dying at five minutes old, born at home). My mother was very hard to understand or cope with, so much so I admit I was very defensive in the way I behaved towards her, and I used to say, and truly believe, "she would haunt me from the grave"! 
My mother died ten years ago, and far from being haunted I'm really comforted by thoughts of my mother, I just didn't understand her when she said, " I've done my best", when I criticised her over and over, and probably just as important, I did not know or understand what she had to face.    .


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 10, 2020)

I was the one, who broke off all relationship with most of my family, and primarily my mother. I could write down all the things that I believe where I was wronged. They could be true, exaggerated,  or false. But the real reason is that my life was so much better, if they were  totally out of the picture.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jul 19, 2020)

I feel so bad for parent(s) who are estranged from their children. I have a friend who's in that situation right now. She adopted the boy when he was a baby. I recognized that he was going to be trouble when he was a little boy. He got to be a teenager and hooked up with a slightly older girl who's whack. She influences him to do some crazy things. They tried staying with my friend for awhile but completely disrespected her. Then they moved to Florida and seem to be back and forth between there, where her mother lives and Jersey. Sometimes it's months before my friend hears from her son and then there's usually some drama.


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## grahamg (Jul 29, 2020)

It may be useful to give a few details about the way one parent was treated by the authorities.
In this case the views of the child were sought. Those views confirmed the arguments put forward by the parent they resided with most of the time. The father asserted he thought his child was saying what they did because of the pressure exerted upon them. The father asserted he believed his child enjoyed contact. The child said, "You know that's not true"! The father did not wish to argue with his child further in front of strangers. The two trained, court appointed officials stated within five minutes, " We can see there is no positive relationship between you!"
All those two knew was what they'd gleaned from statements a few pages long presented by either side without professional assistance, and an earlier meeting with both patents to hear their arguments. They formed their view without speaking to other family me!here who might have informed them whether the relationship with the father had any merit, (like the grandparents from either side). In accepting the view the father did not make contact with his child enjoyable, they refused to even look at photographic evidence showing a happy child.

I've tried to tell here, whoever might read this what could happen to other parents, or members of our wider family and friends, should they encounter those in authority charged with the responsibility for essentially, "intrusively delving into the relationship between a parent and their child, even where no child abuse is suspected"!     .

Things may be different where you live, your laws subtely different, the training of your court officials differ, the wider cultural aspects and attitudes in your country may be different, and this can affect decisions made by the courts, and I hope they are too.       !


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## win231 (Jul 29, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *I only know about my Dad's mother and how she treated her children. At one time or another she turned against all of her 8 children. My Dad she turned against him and my Mom and then my brother ,sister and me. She continued to do it to each child of hers for different reasons. How she acted even passed down to her grandchildren and now in each family one sibling turned against their brother or sister. Luckily me,my sister and brother never followed the trend*


Interesting how that works - some kids absorbing their parents' bad characteristics.
I made it a point to be nothing like my mom who was a raging psycho who should have never had kids; she had four.  But my sister picked up some of her bad traits, to the point where her son & daughter didn't speak to her for 2 years, then she made some changes.  Not enough, but she's getting better.  Losing her son and daughter was what it took.


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## grahamg (Aug 3, 2020)

I'm not sure if this post fits in here, but maybe it isn't worth its own thread so here goes, (sorry a bit long!):-

Here are some of his comments about the current family law situation in the UK, and the policy of the Fathers 4 Justice group today, following their high profile stunts and marches of the past leading them to becoming the third largest voluntary organisation of protest group in the country with 90,000 members.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/ju...world-in-three-years

Quote:
"Matt O’Connor, who founded the group after a bitter dispute over access to his own sons 14 years ago, admits that they hated his activism when they were younger, “and I don’t think they’ve warmed to it – Dad’s never hip, never, so it’s put your heads down and don’t mention it”.

But there was a moment when it looked as though O’Connor’s campaign of direct action, begun in 2002, might get results. Politicians expressed sympathy, not for the law-breaking protesters but for the issues they raised; so did public figures, including Bob Geldof (who fought a custody battle with Paula Yates over their three daughters). The “secrecy” of the family courts – one of the group’s angriest complaints – began to be questioned. So did the behaviour of mothers who flout court orders allowing contact between children and fathers, and in 2004 a woman was jailed for three months for refusing her ex-partner access to their son.

Break
O’Connor and his second wife, Nadine, who came along to a Fathers4Justice meeting and soon joined him at the campaign’s helm, hoped so. But four (now nine) years ago, Fathers4Justice received what it felt to be a slap in the face. David Cameron made a speech to mark Father’s Day calling for “runaway dads” to be stigmatised like drunk drivers. O’Connor was so angry he went on an eight-day hunger strike.

Break

But Fathers4Justice wants to tone things down. “I’ve got to try to win people like you over,” he says. “I was a huge fan but then I became very anti-Guardian because of its hostility to dads’ issues. But now I think we have to try to persuade people.” This shift is partly because Fathers4Justice has failed. O’Connor says he was once a naive idealist who marched for CND and against apartheid. “When I started I thought I could change the world in three years, which shows what a bloody idiot I am,” he says. “I am profoundly disappointed that we have not achieved our aims. I am more in touch with my own mortality now I am getting towards 50 and I really want this to work. Not for me, really – I’m out of it – but for my children. I don’t want my boys to go through what I did.”

Break

.... he thinks the tide has turned against him and that no new legislation will be passed before 2020 – which is why his campaign’s focus has switched to pastoral support and a new helpline, which is being launched this weekend.

From his own experience of going to court about once a month as a McKenzie friend – or lay assistant to a litigant – O’Connor knows the situation of those caught up in such cases has been made harder by legal-aid cuts. When he says the result is a “blood bath … wholly out of control … it’s legalised cage fighting for parents”, his choice of words may be over the top – but even those who reject his emphasis on fathers as victims agree he has a point.

“We’ve had so many people coming to us, this Siberia of the broken, people who are clinging by their fingertips to the edge of humanity,” he says.

Break

Reading through the transcript of our interview I stopped counting the number of times I disagreed with O’Connor. He is glib about the effects on children of residency being passed from parent to parent as courts dish out penalties for flouted orders, and says moving homes or schools is no big deal. Meanwhile, he uses the most extreme language to talk about adult experiences, at one point comparing separation from children to the death penalty. He appears to ignore the views of charities and professionals about the importance of privacy in family law.

But O’Connor is right that some men become very vulnerable following family breakdown, and right to point to suicide, along with homelessness, as problems that affect men disproportionately. He answers honestly when asked how divorce affected his first two sons – that he doesn’t know.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 15, 2020)

True the parents hold a lot of the responsibility early on in life but as both parent and child age they should be progressing or gaining wisdom on their own and should they have a better handle on their emotions. I think too many rely or assume one's childhood controls fate period. It doesn't. It takes work to become one's own person, cut their own path or do things their way etc. This is also why many children devolve ie drugs, crime etc because they go they go their own way without knowledge, wisdom, experience etc. So people have control especially in adulthood. 

It's just like academic knowledge for many. They assume high school or a college degree is all one needs but one must learn and adapt their entire life. This is nature. Those that continuously adapt tend to survive the longest.

Familys or groups stuck together or tolerated crap for centuries out of need, strength in numbers thing. Now with all the choices, diversity etc that's not even possible in some cases.

Look and move forward even if you have to learn how to do it. Fate was not set in stone a half century ago.


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## grahamg (Aug 15, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> True the parents hold a lot of the responsibility early on in life but as both parent and child age they should be progressing or gaining wisdom on their own and should they have a better handle on their emotions. I think too many rely or assume one's childhood controls fate period. It doesn't. It takes work to become one's own person, cut their own path or do things their way etc. This is also why many children devolve ie drugs, crime etc because they go they go their own way without knowledge, wisdom, experience etc. So people have control especially in adulthood.
> 
> It's just like academic knowledge for many. They assume high school or a college degree is all one needs but one must learn and adapt their entire life. This is nature. Those that continuously adapt tend to survive the longest.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find those who believe in fate, "do think its set in stone, now and however long ago", (apologies, I'm being pedantic. !).
I'd agree, its always been a cruel life at times, and if you want to go back a few millennia, loyalty between couples, or families, was all important in whether a child got raised successfully, and didn't starve to death!
I'm told momentous atrocities such as the holocaust are justified by perpetrators on the basis that one person is of less value than another, or their interests are of lesser importance, (philosophically speaking). That being the case, having a child condemn a loving parent because someone thinks it in the child's interests to do so, is a small step!     .


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## JaniceM (Aug 20, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I'm not sure if this post fits in here, but maybe it isn't worth its own thread so here goes, (sorry a bit long!):-
> 
> Here are some of his comments about the current family law situation in the UK, and the policy of the Fathers 4 Justice group today, following their high profile stunts and marches of the past leading them to becoming the third largest voluntary organisation of protest group in the country with 90,000 members.
> 
> ...


I'll start with this:  I'm not 100% certain but I think that's the group you mentioned a few years ago...  if they're entirely legitimate, why do they hide some parts of their website, such as the forum?????


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## grahamg (Aug 20, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I'll start with this:  I'm not 100% certain but I think that's the group you mentioned a few years ago...  if they're entirely legitimate, why do they hide some parts of their website, such as the forum?????


I'm not entirely sure, but it may be a historical thing, when of course there were times F4J engaged in acts you could say were deliberate attempts to get themselves arrested, (well, couldn't be anything else really, "dressing up as batman and robin, then finding a weak spot in Buckingham palaces security, so they could access the plinth leading to the famous balcony, has no other justification than generated publicity by breaking the law, obviously!).
When dressed as Santa Claus, with fifty others, we approached a family court welfare office building in our open topped bus, we were given the option of staying outside, thus a legal protest or picket, or entering the building and demanding to meet the boss, (I waited outside, while just over half, men and women went in to sing and shout their demands). A plain clothes police officer got there first, and asked one of the organisers what was going on, whilst calling for back up, and eventually all was resolved without any arrests, as one of the bosses of the government body did come down to listen to the leaders of F4J tell them their views!
They/we have all got too old for this kind of thing, so some of the fun, and heat has gone out of the movement, but the exclusion of such legions of dads continues, "okay, some don't care, are idiots, and deserve all they get". However, yesterday I sat in a restaurant in Chester, and the organiser happened to ask about my daughter, and I related how I'm estranged, prompting him to tell me he no longer has contact with his two daughters, doesn't know where they or his ex lives, and its been so long since this happened, he would not recognise his own daughters if he met them in the street, (I can appreciate the truth of this, because I didn't recognise my own child in a school photo once!). Therefore the cases are out there, " estrangement on a vast scale", and ultimately no one cares enough to tackle those behind the treatment of just ordinary guys, in most cases, having the dirty done on them/us!   .


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