# Speakin'a the school shooting



## rgp (Feb 15, 2018)

Would you be in favor of modifying/lessening, the protection of patient/doctor privilege, as an attempt to better limit the chances of those on the 'edge' from being able to buy a weapon/some particular weapons ?

Listening to much of the talk surrounding this latest shooting [and others]...there are those that feel, that it is imperative in removing the threat to the masses , from those that are having some emotional issues.

One expert even said that it is more of a 'pressing' issue among teens. He went on to say it is due to the sheer fact that their minds are still developing , and in many cases they harbor increased anger...often misunderstood, even unnoticed anger. 

I support the second amendment fully, but I believe this is a separate issue.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 15, 2018)

But wouldn't that only work on potential shooters who are actually _seeing_ a doctor? How many is that?


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 15, 2018)

It might help if they expanded the mandatory reporting used to protect vulnerable people from abuse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_reporting_in_the_United_States


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## rgp (Feb 15, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> But wouldn't that only work on potential shooters who are actually _seeing_ a doctor? How many is that?



Many of these shooters seem to be in that group, @ one point or another. And maybe it's a _start ?_


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## Camper6 (Feb 15, 2018)

Why does anyone need an AR-15 weapon designed for the military and is the weapon of choice for mass murders.?


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## Knight (Feb 15, 2018)

Shootings have been happening for over a century. 
http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states


The differance is IMO the quantity of those killed at one time has significantly increased. The loss of life of one or many is the tradgety. 


Given the way things are now it wouldn't surprise me if people began posting weird stuff about killing and hate on social media just to provoke a response. To "test" reporting them. 


Take away guns that can kill one or many at one time, other methods would surely be used. Having doctors identify patients with mental problems violates the patients rights. I'm guessing some would want a national mental health registry so crossing state lines would be followed. Hacking that registry then what?  Monitoring social media for whacko detection, as I posted the potential for false input would be a problem. 


Is there a solution to the mass murders? Seems simple enough ban all automatic & semi automatic firearms. That won't stop murders but should help eliminate the amount killed at one time. Is that progress? One life or many as I posted in the 1st paragragph. The loss of life of one or many is the tradgety. 


So what is my solution? I don't have one. I think history shows us that this has always been a part of our society. The increase in population IMO increased the incidence rate and isn't likely to stop.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 15, 2018)

These mass shootings shootings appear to be some sort of perfect storm confluence.

It starts with a disenfranchised, mentally unstable male who wants to go out in a dramatic blaze of glory like his favorite action heroes. Add the availability of military weapons that don't belong in the hands of the public and schools that require vulnerable people to be assembled without genuine protection.

If there were armed guards present at the school, I would be interested in hearing where they were located. They don't appear to have been stationed at the entrances to the school, as common sense would seem to require.


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## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> Would you be in favor of modifying/lessening, the protection of patient/doctor privilege, as an attempt to better limit the chances of those on the 'edge' from being able to buy a weapon/some particular weapons ?
> 
> .





No

It's not good to enact laws that negatively affect the law-abiding majority because of the actions of a criminal minority.

There should be stricter criminal laws to punish those who actually commit the crimes.

School officials should be armed and trained how to use the weapons in an emergency.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2018)

I think part of the issue in this case was/is the suspect is 19 year old young adult. This was not a 16 year old student being picked on. He should not have been afforded any protections or consideration a minor would get. I think when the authorities including school officials and law enforcement disciplined or investigated him he was viewed as a typical high school student making threats, not an adult.


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## Sunny (Feb 15, 2018)

When he was being investigated, maybe he still was a minor.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2018)

Sunny said:


> When he was being investigated, maybe he still was a minor.



They say he was investigated as late as last September which means he still would've been 18, a young adult, not a minor. But they hear high school student subconscientiously  they're dealing with a minor.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 15, 2018)

If it's true that our brains continue to develop well into our 20s, I can't see how it would make much difference if they envisioned him as a high school student or as an adult. He seems to have lacked impulse control and that's why he was expelled from school.

I tend to question the quality of these FBI investigations. The gunman who killed two students at Aztec High School in New Mexico was investigated shortly before he committed his crime. I admit I haven't been impressed with the FBI agents I've known. As an example, an agent came to my home early one morning years ago to gather information about a friend who had been kidnapped. He was livid at me and spent most of the time ranting because I was not at home the night before (a far more respectful agent called me later that morning and conducted an actual interview). From what I've seen since then, many agents have too many preconceptions and they are far too arrogant to learn anything. I wonder if agents are taking these investigations seriously enough.


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## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Why does anyone need an AR-15 weapon designed for the military and is the weapon of choice for mass murders.?


The answer is that no-one does need one. 
People with a gun fetish think they need one, or two, or three ... and so they are still on sale and easy to get.

Is anyone asking how this teenager was able to get his hands on one?


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## CindyLouWho (Feb 15, 2018)

The suspect in a Florida school shooting bought the AR-15-style rifle used in the attack legally a year ago, authorities said Thursday.
Nikolas Cruz, 19, is charged with murdering 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where he had been expelled for fighting, according to authorities.
Cruz legally bought the semiautomatic rifle at a Broward County gun shop last February, law enforcement officials who weren’t authorized to discuss the matter publicly told the Associated Press. The gun, a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 .223, was purchased at Sunrise Tactical Supply, according to AP.
Federal law allows people 18 and older to legally purchase long guns, including this kind of assault weapon. With no criminal record, Cruz cleared an instant background check via the FBI criminal database.
If somebody is adjudicated mentally defective or has been committed to a mental institution, he is prohibited from possessing a firearm under federal law.
Florida Gov. Rick Scott said at a news conference Thursday that he would discuss with the Legislature next week increasing funding for mental-health services and keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.
“If somebody is mentally ill, they can’t have access to a gun,” Scott said.
Melisa McNeill, his public defender, described Cruz in his initial court appearance Thursday as a "broken child" who suffered brain-development problems and depression.



Gun buyers are seldom turned down because of mental illness. From 1998 to 2014, the FBI rejected 16,669 potential gun buyers because a background check found a mental health adjudication, about 1.4% of the roughly 1.2 million background checks that resulted in a denial.

(This is per USA Today)


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## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

.

Was "Nikolas" Cruz adopted from Russia  ??
Russians are infamous for alcohol problems.


" Cruz was adopted at birth, along with his biological brother Zachary, by loving older couple Roger and Lynda Cruz, after the couple moved from Long Island in New York to Broward County. Roger died several years ago from a heart attack. 

*It's unclear if he was adopted from the U.S. or aboard. Adopted children from abroad sometimes have issues adjusting due to neglect in their orphanages, especially children from Russia*. "

*

" Another classmate, Emily Sucher, 16, remembered Cruz as an 'off kid' who would 'smile weirdly, make weird comments.'

In the hours since the shooting, *there has been speculation Cruz may have fetal alcohol syndrome - a congenital condition which causes developmental and behavioral issues - given his facial features - a low nasal bridge, small eyes and thin upper lip - and behavior*."

more at link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5393601/Instagram-school-shooters-guns-violence-hurting-animals.html

.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 15, 2018)

KingsX said:


> No
> 
> It's not good to enact laws that negatively affect the law-abiding majority because of the actions of a criminal minority.
> 
> ...


I agree. Most mentally ill are not dangerous.  Those that flip out and harm others (like 3%) are the minority and people need to know that.  I bet that many people who do these shootings have never got any kind of help, too.  In addition many who commit crimes are on something at the time like in the case of the murder of a young girl that was on the news.  The man who raped and tortured and killed her was on crack cocaine.


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## Camper6 (Feb 15, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> The answer is that no-one does need one.
> People with a gun fetish think they need one, or two, or three ... and so they are still on sale and easy to get.
> 
> Is anyone asking how this teenager was able to get his hands on one?



He passed a background check and bought it legally.


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## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

And that is the problem. It is an insane situation that allows him, or anyone else, to buy such a gun. 
Also, the background check must be just a meaningless exercise in box ticking.

For me to get approval to work with children as a volunteer on a management committee it took several weeks for the police to check me out. Then I had to present myself with photo ID before I received an identification number that I must present to any situation where I might be in contact with children. I am now listed on a state data base and if I am even complained about it will be noted on my record. Every 5 years I have to repeat the procedure.

Please tell me that the background check for gun ownership is at least this rigorous.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 15, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> And that is the problem. It is an insane situation that allows him, or anyone else, to buy such a gun.
> Also, the background check must be just a meaningless exercise in box ticking.
> 
> For me to get approval to work with children as a volunteer on a management committee it took several weeks for the police to check me out. Then I had to present myself with photo ID before I received an identification number that I must present to any situation where I might be in contact with children. I am now listed on a state data base and if I am even complained about it will be noted on my record. Every 5 years I have to repeat the procedure.
> ...


I will tell you that it is not.


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## KingsX (Feb 15, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> And that is the problem. It is an insane situation that allows him, or anyone else, to buy such a gun.




I'm sure there are plenty of places where citizens owning guns is illegal.
You might feel safe there.  But don't come to Texas;  we have open carry.


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## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2018)

Thanks for the tip, KingsX. I did spend some time in US in 1985, in western states and in NY city. The only guns I laid my eyes on were in the possession of police officers and the guards at military properties. This to me was as things should be and I never felt unsafe whether we were driving on  desert roads or walking around SF and NY. I really have no desire to visit any place where civilians have a gun in the purse or strapped to the hip. As for people walking around carrying semi automatic rifles?  Yoiks! 

I felt safe enough in PNG even though the local men walk around carrying nasty looking machetes. The reason is that the machete has other uses besides killing people. A semi automatic rifle is unlikely to used to cut back weeds in the community garden. It has only one purpose and that is not target practice nor vermin control. It is designed to kill people - lots of people.


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## KingsX (Feb 16, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks for the tip, KingsX. I did spend some time in US in 1985, in western states and in NY city. The only guns I laid my eyes on were in the possession of police officers and the guards at military properties. This to me was as things should be and I never felt unsafe whether we were driving on  desert roads or walking around SF and NY. I really have no desire to visit any place where civilians have a gun in the purse or strapped to the hip. As for people walking around carrying semi automatic rifles?  Yoiks!
> 
> I felt safe enough in PNG even though the local men walk around carrying nasty looking machetes. The reason is that the machete has other uses besides killing people. A semi automatic rifle is unlikely to used to cut back weeds in the community garden. It has only one purpose and that is not target practice nor vermin control. It is designed to kill people - lots of people.




I don't know the crime rate where you live.  But in many American cities it is high and it is getting worse.

If you are a woman living in such a city and criminals invade your home,  you could hide in a closet,  call 911
and hope the police get to you before the criminals. Here in Texas,  women are given another choice = self-protection.


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## Butterfly (Feb 16, 2018)

One thing I have been wondering -- it seems to me that schools should consider locking doors (allowing people to get OUT of the building, but not IN) during school hours and requiring anyone who needed to enter to have some kind of key card or requiring some other kind of school identification or be recognized and invited in by admin.  This would be a big hassle, but surely less than the awfulness of having somebody come in off the street and shoot people.  I would also advocate for metal detectors in every school at every point of entry.  Sad that it has come to this, but surely that would help some.


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## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2018)

We have crime. Sydney is a big city.

Not far from where I live in the suburbs a man was recently murdered by a gunman while he was sitting in a café. The police have tracked down the culprit and arrested him. Yesterday a known criminal was assassinated in his car by two masked gunmen. They got away. The murdered man had served time for killing a man at Sydney airport by smashing his head in with a bollard. This was during a fight between two bikie gangs.

Today the news was of a would be jihadist being arrested before he could carry out his plan. Our police and security people do their job well.

We have drug dealers and armed holdups but the criminals mostly go to war with each other. Home invasions are usually targeted. Random home invasions are rare. 

My home has very little security. We have no front fence and the side gate leading to the back of the house has no lock. When someone knocks on my front door and I open it there is nothing between me and the person outside except an unlocked screen door.

If I felt threatened I would get a dog, not a gun.


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## Camper6 (Feb 16, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> One thing I have been wondering -- it seems to me that schools should consider locking doors (allowing people to get OUT of the building, but not IN) during school hours and requiring anyone who needed to enter to have some kind of key card or requiring some other kind of school identification or be recognized and invited in by admin.  This would be a big hassle, but surely less than the awfulness of having somebody come in off the street and shoot people.  I would also advocate for metal detectors in every school at every point of entry.  Sad that it has come to this, but surely that would help some.



He got in through some stairwell.


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## Sunny (Feb 16, 2018)

Before you can enter a museum or any government building in Washington, DC, you have to pass a security inspection of your clothes, anything you are carrying, etc., similar to airport security. I think the schools should start that kind of inspection too, maybe not for the little kids, but for anyone else, including teenagers.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 16, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> One thing I have been wondering -- it seems to me that schools should consider locking doors (allowing people to get OUT of the building, but not IN) during school hours and requiring anyone who needed to enter to have some kind of key card or requiring some other kind of school identification or be recognized and invited in by admin.  This would be a big hassle, but surely less than the awfulness of having somebody come in off the street and shoot people.  I would also advocate for metal detectors in every school at every point of entry.  Sad that it has come to this, but surely that would help some.



I think that's why he waited until the afternoon closer to quit/let out time. School security and staff would probably be more vigilante the first half of the day worried about what students are bringing into school. One of the first eyewitness interviews was that of a recent graduate that was there to visit a teacher. I think people knew getting into the school towards closing was pretty easy.


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## Camper6 (Feb 16, 2018)

All this concentration on mental illness and parenting as the cause is just window dressing for the stance of keeping the status quo for gun owners who want to keep the real cause sacred. Gun ownership and especially weapons designed for war.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Before you can enter a museum or any government building in Washington, DC, you have to pass a security inspection of your clothes, anything you are carrying, etc., similar to airport security. I think the schools should start that kind of inspection too, maybe not for the little kids, but for anyone else, including teenagers.



This level of security will be expensive. The cost should not come out of existing education budgets. Taxes will need to be raised or a levy placed on certain industries. Which industries do you think should be in the cross hairs?


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> All this concentration on mental illness and parenting as the cause is just window dressing for the stance of keeping the status quo for gun owners who want to keep the real cause sacred. Gun ownership and especially weapons designed for war.




There will be war if you try to take the guns of law-aiding citizens.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> All this concentration on mental illness and parenting as the cause is just window dressing for the stance of keeping the status quo for gun owners who want to keep the real cause sacred. Gun ownership and especially weapons designed for war.




There will be war if you try to take the guns of law-aiding citizens.





Warrigal said:


> This level of security will be expensive. The cost should not come out of existing education budgets. *Taxes will need to be raised* or a levy placed on certain industries. Which industries do you think should be in the cross hairs?




Another war in the making.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

And the casualties of that war will be the children.


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## Butterfly (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> This level of security will be expensive. The cost should not come out of existing education budgets. Taxes will need to be raised or a levy placed on certain industries. Which industries do you think should be in the cross hairs?



Funerals for children are expensive, too.  And any attempt to remove guns from the possession of law abiding citizens would be expensive as well.


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## Camper6 (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> There will be war if you try to take the guns of law-aiding citizens.



Ask the survivors of the latest school shootings and their parents.

Check to see what these students have to say.  They say enough talk.  We are going to do something about it.

Taking all the guns of law abiding citizens is not the issue here.  The weapon of choice is the issue.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Taking all the guns of law abiding citizens is not the issue here.  The weapon of choice is the issue.




You are of a different mindset. But many others like me know if there is another revolution or civil war,
it will be when the state tries to take  guns away from law-abiding citizens. Because once that happens, 
the last chance to stop an intrusive, draconian, oppressive, totalitarian government  has come and gone.


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## Shalimar (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> And the casualties of that war will be the children.


Agreed. I find all this talk of war very disturbing, particularly given the context. That speaks to societal ills. In the interests of peace, due to sensitive content, I will refrain from any further comments on that subject.


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## TonyK (Feb 17, 2018)

On April 20, 2018 high school students in the US are planning on boycotting school on the anniversary of the Columbine school massacre. They won't return until laws are enacted to protect them in their classrooms. Kudos to them.


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## CindyLouWho (Feb 17, 2018)

Good for them! They deserve better than what they feel is being done to protect them, which is nothing but lip service right now. They need to have the freedom to sit in a classroom and learn, not have a monkey on their backs,  being in fear for their safety, their lives. I sure hope their message gets heard and understood. God bless our youth.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 17, 2018)

TonyK said:


> On April 20, 2018 high school students in the US are planning on boycotting school on the anniversary of the Columbine school massacre. They won't return until laws are enacted to protect them in their classrooms. Kudos to them.



That's brilliant. I hope it's widespread and they're able to accomplish something.

Metal detectors and improved security at schools would be a good start. 

Better trained FBI agents would help. The killer at the Aztec high school in New Mexico was interviewed by the FBI shortly before his rampage. The FBI looked at this Parkland killer and determined he wasn't interesting enough to investigate.


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## Camper6 (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> You are of a different mindset. But many others like me know if there is another revolution or civil war,
> it will be when the state tries to take  guns away from law-abiding citizens. Because once that happens,
> the last chance to stop an intrusive, draconian, oppressive, totalitarian government  has come and gone.



Thats a reason? You are going to take on the armed forces and the National Guard?

Who is going to lead this revolution and organize homeowners with their weapons.

You are talking about third world countries not a democracy with a constitution.

Have you ever heard of treason? It's in the Constitution.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Thats a reason? You are going to take on the armed forces and the National Guard?
> 
> Who is going to lead this revolution and organize homeowners with their weapons.
> 
> ...




Speaking of the Constitution... Thomas Jefferson said this:

" God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion."

" What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? "

" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "

more at link

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-12-02-0348

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/presidents/thomas-jefferson/letters-of-thomas-jefferson/jefl64.php


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Whose side was Jefferson on, the rebels or the tyrants?

I ask because students in Florida are calling for change or rebellion. 
They want change to gun legislation and are prepared to rebel to get it.
They want to end the killings. Perhaps they are the true patriots.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/17/us/florida-student-emma-gonzalez-speech/index.html


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## fmdog44 (Feb 17, 2018)

I grew up with TV and movies neither of which contained the extreme violence and graphic horror killing in todays' film and TV. Add to that the sick violent videos and games kids stare at for 12+ hours per day. School shootings are done by kids unlike the Vegas country music slaughter. I went to a highschool from 1962 to 1966 and never heard a whisper of a gun or knife and the school was in a pretty rough area. We had fights after school occasionally but fists only. Our kids are going to doctors who medicate them in to zombies before they are teenagers. Look at the murder rates amongst gangs at times the body count per week is greater than current wars. Only a fool would believe taking assault style rifles away is the answer. I am all for much more stringent background checks but how many Americans own this weapons versus how many go out to kill people with them? More people are buying weapons than ever before in our history. Our society is crumbling brick by brick and no leader exists that is willing to try to fix it.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Whose side was Jefferson on, the rebels or the tyrants?
> 
> I ask because students in Florida are calling for change or rebellion.




As he says himself,  Jefferson was on the side of the people to rebel with force if necessary to keep an out of control government in line.

The civil war was the last time this happened.  Unfortunately,  the result of that rebellion was an even more draconian American empire.

We are long past due for this to happen again.


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## fmdog44 (Feb 17, 2018)

The murder rate in Russia is greater than Americas and they cannot own guns.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

That is true, but how many school massacres occur in Russia?


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> The murder rate in Russia is greater than Americas and they cannot own guns.




Speaking of Russia...

Russia had a deadly three day school invasion by armed terrorists in September 2004
which ended in over 300 people, including 186 children,  being killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Please explain to me how the US government was out of control before the outbreak of the first American Civil War. 
I know the war was not about slavery to begin with. What was it about? What caused the rebellion initially?

I am puzzled by your reference to an American Empire. As someone living in a country that was once part of the British Empire I cannot easily equate US overseas territories with The British Raj.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Speaking of Russia...
> 
> Russia had a deadly three day school invasion by armed terrorists in September 2004
> which ended in over 300 people, including 186 children,  being killed.
> ...



Thank you. I had forgotten about Beslan. It was terrible.


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## fmdog44 (Feb 17, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Speaking of Russia...
> 
> Russia had a deadly three day school invasion by armed terrorists in September 2004
> which ended in over 300 people, including 186 children,  being killed.
> ...



Correct but the terrorists paid the price for that one.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Please explain to me how the US government was out of control before the outbreak of the first American Civil War.
> I know the war was not about slavery to begin with. What was it about? What caused the rebellion initially?
> 
> I am puzzled by your reference to an American Empire. As someone living in a country that was once part of the British Empire I cannot easily equate US overseas territories with The British Raj.





First of all,  the North was notably Puritan Republican while the South was heavily settled by Scots,  Jacobites and Cavaliers which is why some historians believe the American civil war was a continuation of the English civil wars.  In some Confederate war poetry,  Yankees are referred to as Puritans and Southerners as Cavaliers. 

Second, the initial animosity between North and South was economic.

Southerners produced raw materials which were sent to Northern factories to manufacture into finished goods.  The US government  placed high tariff taxes on foreign made goods.  However, foreign raw materials were free of tariffs.  Thus Northern industry enjoyed tariff protection for Northern finished goods... while Southerners struggled with foreign raw material competition.  The South either imported finished goods or had them shipped from the North.  Because import tariff taxes were cheaper than shipping costs from the North,  *Southerners actually paid most of the tariff tax money coming into the federal government coffers [90% of US government revenue at the time.]  The federal government used that Southern paid tariff tax money to benefit the North by building more Northern infrastructure [roads, railroads, canals, etc.]   Southerners rightly believed they were being intentionally economically exploited by the North. *   The irony is... economic exploitation by the North on the South  extended to Southern slaves.

Third,  the civil war was a fight over individual states rights versus a strong centralized  US government.  Many Southerners share my belief that the American republic died in the civil war and the American empire was born.  This is primarily because the individual states lost much of their power and are now ruled over and dictated too by a strong central government.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Thank you KingsX. I found some details hard to follow but I think this explanation, although very simplified, seems in agreement with your post. Do you agree?

https://www.ducksters.com/history/civil_war/causes_of_the_civil_war.php


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

.

The tariff issue might be difficult to understand but it was a major factor.  Bottom-line, the South paid most of the tariff taxes
which funded 90% the US government... but the US government turned around and spent the tax money to benefit the North.

Ironically,  when Lincoln "freed the slaves" in his Emancipation Proclamation, it only symbolically "freed slaves" in Southern states
who had already seceded from the Union. The US government had no control over those slaves. In other words, it was merely a 
propaganda war tactic.  Northern slaves were not freed until after the war.  The 13th amendment, which abolished slavery in the
 USA, was not passed until six months after the war ended.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

Interesting. I have watched the TV documentary series The Civil War and I got the impression that the "free states" had already emancipated their slaves.


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## KingsX (Feb 17, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Interesting. I have watched the TV documentary series The Civil War and I got the impression that the "free states" had already emancipated their slaves.




You are thinking of the Northern states as one unit.  Before the civil war,  individual states had varying laws on slavery.
That is how the civil war birthed the American empire... via a victorious strong central federal government taking away 
much of former state sovereignty [ie, states rights.]


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2018)

I am on  a learning curve here. I've just revisited that education (for dummies) site and found the part about the Emancipation Proclamation (executive order) and some reference to loyal (to the Union) states that were not covered by the proclamation. I haven't found anything yet about the issue of tariffs but I will keep looking for a simple text. I am something of an economic illiterate.

Found what I am looking for and understand the issue now.

http://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/


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## Camper6 (Feb 18, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Funerals for children are expensive, too.  And any attempt to remove guns from the possession of law abiding citizens would be expensive as well.



But we are not talking about taking all guns away are we.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Whose side was Jefferson on, the rebels or the tyrants?
> 
> I ask because students in Florida are calling for change or rebellion.
> They want change to gun legislation and are prepared to rebel to get it.
> ...



This won't be a very popular post ...

How are they rebelling? By staying home on 4/20, oddly enough the national Marijuana Day. Tell me that didn't cross their minds during the planning phase. They're high school kids. 

I see staying out of school for one day as being the equivalent of lighting candles at memorial services - it might make the participants feel better but doesn't chnge a thing in the real world. 

Mindless rebellion is worse than no rebellion at all.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

Like most student rebellions it is probably futile but  if they become a rallying point for a more general protest, change may be possible.
That is happened in Australia at the Eureka Stockade. In that case it was miners, not students. Although defeated by the government troops, the miners did achieve all their demands which were later legislated by the Victorian government. 

https://www.britannica.com/event/Eureka-Stockade

https://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.php?storyid=86


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## SifuPhil (Feb 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Like most student rebellions it is probably futile but if they become a rallying point for a more general protest, change may be possible.



Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.



> That is happened in Australia at the Eureka Stockade. In that case it was miners, not students. Although defeated by the government troops, the miners did achieve all their demands which were later legislated by the Victorian government.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/event/Eureka-Stockade
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/gold/story.php?storyid=86



Interesting history - thanks again.


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## 911 (Feb 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> The answer is that no-one does need one.
> People with a gun fetish think they need one, or two, or three ... and so they are still on sale and easy to get.
> 
> Is anyone asking how this teenager was able to get his hands on one?



The AR-15 is fun to shoot while at the range. I don’t own one, but my son does. If nothing else, the rifle itself is a great intimidator. It’s like if someone pointed a .44 magnum at your head with a 10 inch barrel and had a tactical light mounted on it. If I would have a handgun like that and pointed it at someone and they kept coming at me, I would assume that they are a nut job. 

We we have a nice selection of AR-15s in the Barracks, among other more sophisticated arms, but if I was going to shoot at someone close range, I would prefer a 12-gauge shotgun.


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## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> But we are not talking about taking all guns away are we.




Like the famous analogy of boiling the frog... eroding gun rights leading to total gun confiscation would be incremental.
Protesting the loss of liberty in small increments should began with the first loss.


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## Camper6 (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Like the famous analogy of boiling the frog... eroding gun rights leading to total gun confiscation would be incremental.
> Protesting the loss of liberty in small increments should began with the first loss.



There are already laws on the books prohibiting weapons.  It hasn't had a major impact on the ownership of guns in the country has it.?

I really think this worrying that the government is going to confiscate everyone's guns in the U.S. is a crock.


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## rgp (Feb 18, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> There are already laws on the books prohibiting weapons.  It hasn't had a major impact on the ownership of guns in the country has it.?
> 
> I really think this worrying that the government is going to confiscate everyone's guns in the U.S. is a crock.




 A crock ?..I dunno, but what I do believe could happen is.....after they approach the first household [to] confiscate ,...all the others might just 'rise-up' . Then we will be in deep doo-doo.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

This same sort of talk occurred in Australia in 1996. 

"They're coming to take away our guns" "Over my dead body, they will" etc etc.

I personally knew a couple who thought the government wanted to take away the rifles they used for 'roo shooting. They vowed to bury them under the house as the Scots did with their claymores centuries ago.

It was all unnecessary steam. The government offered an amnesty and time for illegal guns to be handed in. There was also a buy back scheme to reduce the total number of guns in circulation. Also a proper registration scheme was introduced which was a great help to police who happened to be called out to domestic violence incidents.

No authority ever went into homes looking for firearms unless they were after criminals, so all of the "law abiding gun owners" were quite safe. When raiding the houses of known criminals the police always assume that firearms will be present, registration or not.

In the end, certain categories of firearms are tightly restricted, others less so. Some are prohibited altogether. People can still train for the Olympics, shoot feral pigs etc and have firearms necessary for self protection if their work requires them to carry large sums of money. Not being a gun owner I would have to look up the regulations but they are perfectly consistent with balancing public safety against personal need.

Our government, while often inept, is not tyrannical. In reality they are shit scared of the voters.


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## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

rgp said:


> A crock ?..I dunno, but what I do believe could happen is.....after they approach the first household [to] confiscate ,...all the others might just 'rise-up' . Then we will be in deep doo-doo.





In 1831 the Anglo settlers of Gonzales, Texas asked for a cannon to protect them from hostile Indians.
The Mexican government provided a cannon but said it reserved the right to take it back at anytime.

In 1835 Mexican soldiers were sent to Gonzales to confiscate the cannon.  The Gonzales settlers sent back 
notice that they were keeping both the cannon and the soldiers [as POWs.]   

So the Mexican government sent over a hundred troops to confiscate the cannon.  

Gonzales Anglo settlers along with a militia company of thirty mounted Indian fighters prepared the cannon
for battle.  Their ladies made a flag for the battle, an image of the cannon and the words:  "Come and Take It"

http://www.usflags.com/images/thumbs/0000731.jpeg


The battle of Gonzales is considered to be the first battle of the Texas Revolution. 

"Come and Take It"  became one of the rallying cries of the Texas Revolution.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

1831 eh? 
And now the cannon is pointing directly at the US government?


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## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

.

Ahhh... the 1830s, when men were men and ladies were thankful of it.


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## Shalimar (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Ahhh... the 1830s, when men were men and ladies were thankful of it.


Hmmm. Grateful to have been spared the majority of my children dying before they reached maturity, grateful to not have died of childbirth complications.  Appreciate the opportunity to easily own property, a bank account, have a rewarding career, to vote, not to be viewed as a chattel. Love manly men, yes, that is you, Philly, but as their equal partner, not their pet.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

A lesson from history - the Rum Rebellion of 1808.

On 26th January 1808, officers and men of the New South Wales Corps marched to Government House in Sydney in an act of rebellion against Governor William Bligh. Bligh was arrested and the colony was placed under military rule. This was the only successful armed takeover of government in Australian history.

The NSW Corps was corrupt, having gained control over imported rum, which became the effective currency in the fledgling colony. Accordingly they were referred to as the Rum Corps.

In cahoots with the corrupt officers was a wealthy landowner, one John MacArthur, who had a monopoly over sheep and was keeping the price of mutton high to the detriment of other settlers struggling to eke out a living north of Sydney. Macarthur had arrived with the New South Wales Corps in 1790 as a lieutenant, and by 1805 he had substantial farming and commercial interests in the colony. He had quarrelled with Bligh's predecessor governors and had fought three duels. Bligh and Macarthur's interests clashed in a number of ways. Bligh stopped Macarthur from cheaply distributing large quantities of rum into the Corps. He also halted Macarthur's illegal importation of stills.

Bligh, under instructions from the Colonial Office, attempted to normalise trading conditions in the colony by prohibiting the use of spirits as payment for commodities. Members of the Rum Corps refused to follow Bligh's orders and on Jan 26. 1808, the Corps, with full band and colours, marched to Government House to arrest Bligh. They were hindered by Bligh's daughter and her parasol but Bligh was finally found, in full dress uniform, behind his bed where he claimed he was hiding papers. Bligh returned to England and was exonerated of all wrong doing.

The colony was now in the hands of corrupt men and remained so for the next two years until the arrival of Governor Lachlan Macquarie who dismissed the entire Rum Corps and sent them back to England in disgrace. He replaced them with a regiment loyal to himself and a new era of progress and enlightenment began. 

As with the story of the purloined Mexican cannon, the moral of this story is not immediately obvious. I would suggest that one version might be that only a well regulated and highly disciplined militia should be trusted with firearms.


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## KingsX (Feb 18, 2018)

.

As I understand your history... Australia was once used as an Anglo penal colony.


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## Camper6 (Feb 18, 2018)

rgp said:


> A crock ?..I dunno, but what I do believe could happen is.....after they approach the first household [to] confiscate ,...all the others might just 'rise-up' . Then we will be in deep doo-doo.


That's a really highly unlikely scenario. It's a fabrication perpetuated by the gun lobby to maintain the status quo.
I cannot think of one instance where a weapon has been confiscated without a crime being committed.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> As I understand your history... Australia was once used as an Anglo penal colony.


It was. After the American War of Independence England had nowhere to transport convicts that it had previously dumped on the 13 American colonies so a settlement was begun at Port Jackson (now Sydney Harbour). As well as the convicts there was a regiment and civil servants to administer the colony and over time free settlers arrived and convicts who had completed their sentences stayed on, mostly as farmers but also as architects and builders. One was even a doctor. All transportation ended in the mid 19th Century. By then the Australian gold rush was on and immigration was at a high level.


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## rgp (Feb 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> That's a really highly unlikely scenario. It's a fabrication perpetuated by the gun lobby to maintain the status quo.
> I cannot think of one instance where a weapon has been confiscated without a crime being committed.



Under current law you are correct...but the anti-gun lobby keeps pushing , and I believe gaining some strength . All it would take to become viable is for a change in the law, and that only takes enough votes, and a pen.


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## Sunny (Feb 19, 2018)

> but the anti-gun lobby keeps pushing ,



And who exactly is the "anti-gun lobby," rpg?  The vast majority of U.S. citizens? The people who have seen more than enough slaughter of innocents for one lifetime?  I have never heard this
ridiculous term used before.  There is a gun lobby, aka the NRA, but an _anti _gun lobby?  That refers to nearly everyone!

I haven't heard any government plots to break into law-abiding people's homes and remove their guns. That's complete NRA paranoia, which works with their naive, angry, and not-too-intelligent followers. There is no truth to it, it's just another right-wing scare tactic.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> ... That's complete NRA paranoia, which works with their naive, angry, and not-too-intelligent followers. There is no truth to it, it's just another right-wing scare tactic.



20% of all U.S. Presidents have been members of the NRA. I would hardly call them "naive" or "not-too-intelligent".

"Angry", maybe a few of them ...


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## rgp (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said....

  "And who exactly is the "anti-gun lobby," rpg? 

   They are exactly that....those that protest against guns / lobby for more strict gun laws.


 "The vast majority of U.S. citizens?"

  You say majority?..I disagree. I say the 'silent majority' are the gun owners.

   You say..."I have never heard this ridiculous term used before."

  Ridiculous term ?...I think not.... hear it all the time.

  You say...."but an _anti gun lobby? That refers to nearly everyone!"

_   That is a false statement that has no merit.

   Keep in mind, one of the cities / states that have some of the most strict gun laws in the nation are Chicago , Illinois.. have you looked at the gun death rate there lately ? One of the highest [if not THE highest] in the country.


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## KingsX (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> And who exactly is the "anti-gun lobby,"




Cultural Marxists and their "useful ......"


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## KingsX (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I haven't heard any government plots to break into law-abiding people's homes and remove their guns.
> 
> .




Have you heard of  Mt Carmel ??

.


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## rgp (Feb 19, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Have you heard of  Mt Carmel ??
> 
> .



   Ruby Ridge ?.......


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> And who exactly is the "anti-gun lobby," rpg?  The vast majority of U.S. citizens? The people who have seen more than enough slaughter of innocents for one lifetime?  I have never heard this
> ridiculous term used before.  There is a gun lobby, aka the NRA, but an _anti _gun lobby?  That refers to nearly everyone!
> 
> I haven't heard any government plots to break into law-abiding people's homes and remove their guns. That's complete NRA paranoia, which works with their naive, angry, and not-too-intelligent followers. There is no truth to it, it's just another right-wing scare tactic.


==========================================================================================


The thin end of the wedge, like so many other tactics of the wacko leftist, is just the starting point. Once that thin end of the wedge is started, they will absolutely keep hammering away until they have totally destroyed any aspect of the culture that *THEY *deem to be undesirable .

The wacko leftists , aka cultural Marxists, are suffering under the delusion that *THEY*, and *THEY *alone, are somehow gifted with a superior morality AND that they have an absolute right to dictate what is, and is not, politically correct.  God forbid that anyone dare to open his/her mouth to challenge anything the cultural Marxists believe in.

Anti-gun lobby is nearly everyone ? Well, perhaps that is true within certain circles of wacko leftists, but the rest of the country happens to believe in the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION ie The 2nd Amendment.


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> That's a really highly unlikely scenario. It's a fabrication perpetuated by the gun lobby to maintain the status quo.
> I cannot think of one instance where a weapon has been confiscated without a crime being committed.


=========================================================================================


As mentioned above, two of the most notorious examples of extreme leftist action, Ruby Ridge and Mt. Carmel (Waco, Texas), the minions of the Clinton administration, not only confiscated guns in private homes but cold bloodedly murdered 80+ people in the process. I suggest that you do your own research. Pay particular attention to how the ATF thugs (at Ruby Ridge) shot and killed an unarmed woman who was standing on her porch with a baby in her arms. The murderous rifle shot, passed through the baby and then the mother. There Sunny, are but 2 examples of guns being confiscated, without any crime having been committed.


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## Olivia (Feb 19, 2018)

What happened to NO POLITICS???  Once that kind of theme is started, other posters are going to want to defend their politics. And so it goes..............


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Right-wing scare tactics ? This is exactly what we are afraid of.  And i might add the government knew full well that there were no guns in the house.  Take a look at the terror on elian gonzalez's face. This raid was ordered by Janet Reno, Head of the Justice Dept (Clinton Admin) in order to hand the child back into the hands of a communist country (Cuba).


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

Olivia said:


> What happened to NO POLITICS???  Once that kind of theme is started, other posters are going to want to defend their politics. And so it goes..............



I think Olivia makes a valid point. Terms like "wacko leftist" and "cultural Marxist", thrown out as barbs against other posters does seem to be extremely political and invite response.

I am now reviewing my posts to see whether I have been guilty of similar posts.


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## KingsX (Feb 19, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I think Olivia makes a valid point. Terms like "wacko leftist" and "cultural Marxist", thrown out as barbs against other posters does seem to be extremely political and invite response.
> 
> I am now reviewing my posts to see whether I have been guilty of similar posts.




I used the term,  "cultural marxist",  after being labeled a "right-winger."
I also gave an historic example of cultural marxism, the social agenda
of the Marxist Bolsheviks after they took over Russia. In today's USA,
many liberals promote a similar "cultural marxist" social agenda.


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

Correct, KingsX, but the tone has gone south in recent posts.

I have now learned what the term means and that it has become a pejorative label used by one side of politics against the other side. It has become inflammatory but not as much as the words "wacko leftists". Since the mods have asked us to refrain from politics, I think a step backwards is a good idea.


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> And who exactly is the "anti-gun lobby," rpg?  The vast majority of U.S. citizens? The people who have seen more than enough slaughter of innocents for one lifetime?  I have never heard this
> ridiculous term used before.  There is a gun lobby, aka the NRA, but an _anti _gun lobby?  That refers to nearly everyone!
> 
> I haven't heard any government plots to break into law-abiding people's homes and remove their guns. That's complete NRA paranoia, which works with their naive, angry, and not-too-intelligent followers. There is no truth to it, it's just another right-wing scare tactic.






Warrigal said:


> I think Olivia makes a valid point. Terms like "wacko leftist" and "cultural Marxist", thrown out as barbs against other posters does seem to be extremely political and invite response.
> 
> I am now reviewing my posts to see whether I have been guilty of similar posts.




I think I should point out that I did not make any negative comments about any other members.  All I did was point out that, in America, there are Leftist wackos and cultural Marxists who are working over-time to force their agendas on everyone else. 

And I did respond to the following: "I haven't heard of any government plots to break into law-abiding peoples home's and remove their guns. That's complete NRA paranoia, which works with their *naïve, angry and not-to-intelligent* followers. There is no truth to it, it's just another *right-wing scare tactic*".

Such a statement requires a response.  I'm sure Sunny did not mean anyone on this site, just as I did not mean anyone on this site.


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2018)

Still, I think we are on a slippery slope here. I'm backing away.


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## Sunny (Feb 19, 2018)

What on earth does Elien Gonzalez have to do with this discussion?  I thought we were talking about government agents breaking into people's homes to confiscate their legally acquired guns, or some other scare story from the far right?  And the best you can come up with is Elien Gonzales in 2000?

Speaking of which, here's what Wikipedia has to say about him.*  It sounds to me like justice was done in this unfortunate story, as the child was returned to his father. Isn't that more important to a 5-year-old than what political system is in power in that country?  He wasn't returned to Fidel Castro, he was returned to his own home and immediate family.

* In 2015, González was studying to be an industrial engineer, and hoped to marry his high school sweetheart and fiancée, Ilianet Escaño, after finishing college. He stated that although 
he did not regret returning to Cuba, he would like to travel to the United States one day "to give my love to the American people".


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Correct, KingsX, but the tone has gone south in recent posts.
> 
> I have now learned what the term means and that it has become a pejorative label used by one side of politics against the other side. It has become inflammatory but not as much as the words "wacko leftists". Since the mods have asked us to refrain from politics, I think a step backwards is a good idea.



A step back may be in order, as you suggested. I would point out, however, that you did refer to a "WILD WEST MENTALITY". That also is inflammatory, particularly in light of the fact that you live half a world away and you don't live with the kind of problems faced every day by many Americans.  
Have a nice day.


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## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> What on earth does Elien Gonzalez have to do with this discussion?  I thought we were talking about government agents breaking into people's homes to confiscate their legally acquired guns, or some other scare story from the far right?  And the best you can come up with is Elien Gonzales in 2000?




The Elian Gonzales story is but one example of government agents breaking into totally innocent peoples homes. We have been talking about guns and some people's desire to usurp the United States Constitution. If you had taken the time to read my 2 previous posts you would have noticed that I directly addressed the issue of government agents breaking into peoples homes to take their guns away, AND in the process murder 80+ innocent people. 

You and several others have made direct reference to "THE FAR RIGHT".   There can be no denying that the 2 events I mentioned actually happened. When such things happen in America, the people SHOULD BE SCARED. It is hardly paranoia to take note and to remember just how far a leftist government is willing to go in the furtherance of their agenda,


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## SifuPhil (Feb 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> A step back may be in order, as you suggested. I would point out, however, that you did refer to a "WILD WEST MENTALITY". That also is inflammatory, particularly in light of the fact that you live half a world away and you don't live with the kind of problems faced every day by many Americans.
> Have a nice day.



Have to stick the needle in one final time, huh?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> A step back may be in order, as you suggested. I would point out, however, that you did refer to a "WILD WEST MENTALITY". That also is inflammatory, particularly in light of the fact that you live half a world away and you don't live with the kind of problems faced every day by many Americans.
> Have a nice day.





SifuPhil said:


> Have to stick the needle in one final time, huh?





Did I say anything untrue ?  Sometimes , Phil, the truth can be a real BIT*H !


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 19, 2018)

Seventeen children have died, fighting amongst each other would seem to be a poor way to honour them. Rest In Peace, pauvre petits.


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## Traveler (Feb 20, 2018)

Let me be clear about one thing. I do not support the selling or owning of assault rifles. I am not a member of the NRA, nor do I support them. And I do not own any guns. However...

It seems to me that since any 18 year old can buy such a weapon, only a very few actually buy them, and even fewer commit these horrible crimes against their fellow students. Therefore, I am convinced that the reason for school shootings MUST lie else where. 

In my opinion we must ask our selves one question. Why are these young men so angry ?


----------



## Sunny (Feb 21, 2018)

Young men and their anger have been well-known down through the centuries. (Just see a performance of Les Miz, although some might say that in that case their anger was justified!)  The problem is allowing absolutely everybody access to guns.  A two-year-old having a tantrum is also angry.  Should we make assault rifles available to them?

Of course, there is a difference between a Les Miz type of political rebellion and a random shooter killing everyone within range, without rhyme or reason.  

Today's newspaper has another frightening story, this time near here. A student at Clarksburg High School in suburban Maryland has twice brought a loaded gun to school. He had a list of grievances against
fellow students. Thank God someone was tipped off in time to prevent tragedy.  The strange thing is that this was not a "troubled teenager" from a broken home, or someone who had ever been in trouble. He
is an honor student, American-born, Chinese parents, no past history of problems.  The guns belonged to someone living in his home, the article didn't say who.

So much for all the facile explanations involving single-parent homes and mental illness.  The problem, as usual, was guns.  And I'm afraid that even if all guns were banned tomorrow, it would be too late. It's locking
the barn door after the horse is gone.


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## KingsX (Feb 21, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Young men and their anger have been well-known down through the centuries. (Just see a performance of Les Miz, although some might say that in that case their anger was justified!)  The problem is allowing absolutely everybody access to guns.  A two-year-old having a tantrum is also angry.  Should we make assault rifles available to them?
> 
> Of course, there is a difference between a Les Miz type of political rebellion and a random shooter killing everyone within range, without rhyme or reason.
> 
> ...




You may have overlooked something in his story that was important. "American-born of Chinese parents."   
He was estranged from his racial roots, At the same time, he might have been under parental pressure 
to excel in their adopted culture [lots of pressure put on immigrant children to excel, especially Asians.]

Guns are not the problem. Failure to address the underlying social issues is the problem that will not go away.

Many people have killed entire families and scores of strangers using other types of weapons.


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## Camper6 (Feb 21, 2018)

When all is said and done you cannot ignore the proximate cause of suicides which the easy availability of a gun.


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## Traveler (Feb 21, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Young men and their anger have been well-known down through the centuries. (Just see a performance of Les Miz, although some might say that in that case their anger was justified!)  The problem is allowing absolutely everybody access to guns. * A two-year-old* *having a tantrum is also angry*. * Should we make assault rifles available to them?*
> 
> Of course, there is a difference between a Les Miz type of political rebellion and a random shooter killing everyone within range, *without* *rhyme or reason.*
> 
> ...




Two year olds having a 10 minute temper tantrum?  What has that to do with angry teenagers ?  Absolutely nothing ! The point I have been making all along is that when an adolescent withdraws from society, and from the family, and when that adolescent is not properly supervised, big trouble is on the horizon.  Some people may deny this simple truth, but, until we, as a society, begin to understand the main cause of why an adolescent picks up that gun and kills, then society is doomed to endure continued school shootings.

Without rhyme or reason ? What is he ? A robot ? Of course there is a reason. That reason is anger. The anger, the emotion, MUST precede the act. No-one commits a violent action without a reason. The reason may not be rational, but the thought ALWAYS precedes the act.


He had a list of grievances against fellow students.  Sounds pretty angry to me. 

Millions of homes , across America, have guns. Millions of those homes that have guns, also have teenagers . *A happy, healthy, well* *supervised teenager does not pickup a gun and start to kill. 
*


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## Camper6 (Feb 21, 2018)

Millions of kids have anger problems.  

They don't kill anyone else.

The problem is the easy access to a gun.


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## 911 (Feb 21, 2018)

Our local schools are shut down due to threats:

http://www.wgal.com/article/central...sses-for-wednesday-after-new-threats/18379204


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## KingsX (Feb 21, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Millions of kids have anger problems.
> 
> They don't kill anyone else.
> 
> The problem is the easy access to a gun.




Millions of people own guns and don't commit crimes.

It's the person who commits the crime, not the gun.

Ban all guns and criminals will still have illegal guns to use against a defenseless law-abiding citizenry.

Criminals also use many other types of weapons to commit crimes.


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## Warrigal (Feb 21, 2018)

911 said:


> Our local schools are shut down due to threats:
> 
> http://www.wgal.com/article/central...sses-for-wednesday-after-new-threats/18379204



That is very alarming 911. I hope law enforcement can identify and eliminate the threat ASAP.


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## RadishRose (Feb 21, 2018)

How do any of us know he was NOT a troubled teenager?
How do we know he was NOT mentally ill?

None of us know anything valuable about this boy. If he meant to perform a mass murder, it's a pretty good bet he IS mentally ill.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 21, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Millions of people own guns and don't commit crimes.
> 
> It's the person who commits the crime, not the gun.
> 
> ...



Yes we know. But just check out the last three mass murders and what was used.

Without the gun the crime is vacant.

Take the keys away from a drunk and he can't drive.

Theres no objection from me to have a handgun but why a weapon of war?

This is getting political now and I can sense where it is heading so I am bowing out.


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## Sunny (Feb 21, 2018)

Radish, if you're referring to the boy in Clarksburg, no one has (yet) said he intended to commit mass murder. "All" he did was bring a loaded gun to school, the article said nothing about his intention to use it. But it was a stupid enough thing to do, especially right now, to get him arrested.

The article did furnish enough about his family and his home life to contradict many of the gun-lovers' assertions about what's wrong in the case of mass murderers. He certainly doesn't fit the usual pattern.

https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/...rning-signs-student-would-be-armed-in-school/.


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## Warrigal (Feb 21, 2018)

Instead of focussing on the actual weapon, let us look more deeply into the mind of the killers. We seldom hear too much about them and since most end up dying with their victims the chance to examine them closely often dies with them. The Parkland shooter is still alive, as is the Port Arthur killer, Martin Bryant.  Martin Bryant was assessed before and after the shooting and in the end he was not considered to be mentally ill but there were problems evident from an early age. He was judged fit to stand trial and is currently serving 35 life sentences plus 1,035 years without parole in Hobart's Risdon Prison.



> Martin Bryant was born on 7 May 1967 at the Queen Alexandria Hospital in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia[SUP].[/SUP] In a 2011 interview, his mother recalls that she would often find his toys broken at a very young age, and said he was an "annoying" and "different" child. A psychologist's view was that he would never hold down a job as he would aggravate people to such an extent that he would always be in trouble.
> 
> Other cases that locals can recall include that he had pulled the snorkel from another boy while diving and had once cut down trees on a neighbour's property. He was described by teachers as being distant from reality and unemotional. At school he was a disruptive and sometimes violent child who suffered severe bullying by other children.
> 
> ...



There is a lot more about his odd behaviour here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant 

On the day of the massacre he had a  Colt AR-15 SP1 Carbine (semi-automatic rifle) but when the police searched his home they found  an arsenal of weapons. He had inherited quite a lot of money from a family friend.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 21, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Theres no objection from me to have a handgun but why a weapon of war?




The US constitution was created by patriot founders who had just conducted 
and won a revolution against government tyranny.

The second amendment giving the people the right to keep and bear arms
protects the people's ability to defend themselves from all enemies, including 
oppressive government.

Thomas Jefferson said:

" God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion."

" What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? "

" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. "

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-12-02-0348


In the 1836 Texas Declaration of Independence, Texans list many oppressions 
imposed by the Mexican government against Texas citizens.

Here is one of them:

*"It has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defence,
the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments."*

https://www.tsl.texas.gov/treasures/republic/declaration.html

The first battle of the Texas revolution against Mexico began when the Mexican
government tired to confiscate a "weapon of war" [a cannon] from Anglo Texans.

http://www.comeandtakeit.com/txhist.html


----------



## 911 (Feb 21, 2018)

911 said:


> Our local schools are shut down due to threats:
> 
> http://www.wgal.com/article/central...sses-for-wednesday-after-new-threats/18379204



Just announced...No school again tomorrow.


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 21, 2018)

These young people will vote soon. It is blatantly obvious the scum in Washington are bought and paid for. If it did not happen after Sandy Hook it will never happen. This is merely proof the power is in the money chest not in the will of the people. A line from the song "Blowin' In The Wind", "how long will it take before we know too many people have died".  Is it sane to suggest teachers arm themselves? If they do then we can stop all the talk about military style assault weapons? Would you face a nut with an AR15 with a hand gun? I have used my handgun in defense of myself against a violent home invasion but did not have to fire. Trust me I did not need an assault rifle to convince my invader to stop in his tracks


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 21, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Radish, if you're referring to the boy in Clarksburg, no one has (yet) said he intended to commit mass murder. "All" he did was bring a loaded gun to school, the article said nothing about his intention to use it. But it was a stupid enough thing to do, especially right now, to get him arrested.
> 
> The article did furnish enough about his family and his home life to contradict many of the gun-lovers' assertions about what's wrong in the case of mass murderers. He certainly doesn't fit the usual pattern.
> 
> https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/...rning-signs-student-would-be-armed-in-school/.



Yep, per the article and those that spoke about him I couldn't see any danger signals either. (other than bringing a loaded gun to school)

Maybe he just decided to break the law and face multiple charges, including possession of a firearm by a  person under 21 and possession of a firearm on school property.  For no reason. A prank. Right after a mass murder. 

A gun is used for killing, so why would he bring it?

Outsiders don't usually have all the facts. I just can't help but feel there's more to his story.  Let's just hope he used poor judgement in thinking he was being funny?

Seriously Sunny, why do *you* think he brought a loaded gun to school?  Thanks for your input.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 21, 2018)

911 said:


> Just announced...No school again tomorrow.



This is terrible. The school is being taunted, like a cat prior to killing the mouse. Disgusting. I pray the police get to this person quickly!


----------



## KingsX (Feb 21, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> This is terrible. The school is being taunted, like a cat prior to killing the mouse. Disgusting. I pray the police get to this person quickly!




Ironic that government schools are defenseless "gun-free zones"
and armed shooters are like bullies who target someone weaker.

If school authorities had guns to defend themselves the threats 
and shootings would stop.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWYLeZZWAAA_GI_.jpg


----------



## Olivia (Feb 21, 2018)

Funny, we didn't have mass shootings when I went to school. I wonder why?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 21, 2018)

Nor me and in the decades of my teaching career I never heard of one in Australia, and none in the 20 years since I retired. 
I wonder why?

Yesterday while I was at our church helping out at the play group I looked at the front door and realised that we have absolutely no security to protect us. We have a fence designed to keep the little children from running out onto the road and the gates are as secure as those around a home swimming pool. They are never locked. The front door was wide open  and the doors have safety glass, not bullet proof glass.

Am I worried? Not a bit. I suppose a nutter could come in and shoot us all but it would be a first.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 21, 2018)

No security here, either. Most people don’t lock their houses during the day if they are at home.


----------



## BobF (Feb 22, 2018)

If that gun seller was following the Federal Gun laws then the rifle was a non military weapon that was able to fire only as a SEMI AUTOMATIC weapon.  This needs to be known by all.   Let us put an end to the confusion of the weapons abilities by calling it a war weapon.   Military weapons these days are FULLY AUTOMATIC.   The SEMI AUTOMATIC system was over 100 years old, M1 and WWII days.   No problems with the weapons of the past.   Blame the problem on the operators, not the guns themselves.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 22, 2018)

> Outsiders don't usually have all the facts. I just can't help but feel there's more to his story.  Let's just hope he used poor judgement in thinking he was being funny?
> 
> Seriously Sunny, why do ​*you think he brought a loaded gun to school?  Thanks for your input.​*



Obviously, I have no idea why. The media so far have not provided enough information to allow us to reach any conclusions. 

I think we can see that there is something clearly wrong with this kid. And why were the guns so accessible to him? There is probably plenty of blame to go around, starting with the proliferation of guns.

It will be interesting to see what comes to light as this story develops.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

BobF said:


> If that gun seller was following the Federal Gun laws then the rifle was a non military weapon that was able to fire only as a SEMI AUTOMATIC weapon.  This needs to be known by all.   Let us put an end to the confusion of the weapons abilities by calling it a war weapon.   Military weapons these days are FULLY AUTOMATIC.   The SEMI AUTOMATIC system was over 100 years old, M1 and WWII days.   No problems with the weapons of the past.   Blame the problem on the operators, not the guns themselves.




Exactly correct. Most people who advocate banning the AR-15 don't have the first clue that that rifle is NOT a military weapon. In any event, even if the AR-15 was banned, there are dozens of other types of weapons capable doing just as much damage. Even a quick look at all of the school shootings will reveal that most of the killers used pistols.

Unfortunately, there are some people who don't want to look at the mindset of the killers . I can't mention what groups I'm talking about because that would be political, but suffice to say it would threaten their cherished ideologies.


----------



## 911 (Feb 22, 2018)

And it continues.............

http://www.wgal.com/article/central...sses-for-wednesday-after-new-threats/18379204


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

911 said:


> And it continues.............
> 
> http://www.wgal.com/article/central...sses-for-wednesday-after-new-threats/18379204




In the past,  there have been incidents of fake threats for the sole purpose of shutting down the schools.

Here is another recent example:

*Suspect May Face Charges After Fake School Threats Posted As ‘Joke’*

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2018/02/20/jeffco-public-schools-threat-columbine/


Ironically,  the push may now be to ban both guns and internet free speech.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2018)

This may result in a boost in homeschooling.

Then again, with the number of single-parent and two-income families today, maybe not.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 22, 2018)

Remember America when we went to an airplane without being searched, had no weapons check at schools, courtrooms etc.? There were no school shootings, no airplane bombings.  Where did it all go wrong?  We are self destructing.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 22, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Remember America when we went to an airplane without being searched, had no weapons check at schools, courtrooms etc.? There were no school shootings, no airplane bombings.  Where did it all go wrong?  We are self destructing.



And remember all the respect for each other and threads were not closed?


----------



## Sunny (Feb 22, 2018)

> I can't mention what groups I'm talking about because that would be  political, but suffice to say it would threaten their cherished  ideologies.



Ah yes, "cherished ideologies," such as cherishing the right to live over the right to own guns.

E.J. Dionne Jr. has a brilliant article in today's Washington Post.  Read it, Traveler. Your nitpicking over precisely what type of weapon a particular gun is sounds like a frantic attempt
to divert attention from the horrifying turn of events in this country, and the heroic reaction of those young people who are telling us they've had enough.  As Dionne says, "No wonder the foes of gun sanity are worried."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...76b4fe57ff7_story.html?utm_term=.8f73ef864561


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Remember America when we went to an airplane without being searched, had no weapons check at schools, courtrooms etc.? There were no school shootings, no airplane bombings.  Where did it all go wrong?  We are self destructing.




The self-destructing began to happen  incrementally after WW2...  and went into high gear after 9-11.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Ah yes, "cherished ideologies," such as cherishing the right to live over the right to own guns.




"right to live"... does that include innocent unborn babies ??


----------



## twinkles (Feb 22, 2018)

i agree


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2018)

KingsX said:


> "right to live"... does that include innocent unborn babies ??



Charming, but what does it have to do with the OP?


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 22, 2018)

BobF said:


> If that gun seller was following the Federal Gun laws then the rifle was a non military weapon that was able to fire only as a SEMI AUTOMATIC weapon.  This needs to be known by all.   Let us put an end to the confusion of the weapons abilities by calling it a war weapon.   Military weapons these days are FULLY AUTOMATIC.   The SEMI AUTOMATIC system was over 100 years old, M1 and WWII days.   No problems with the weapons of the past.   Blame the problem on the operators, not the guns themselves.



Your post is correct I would add that the walls of guns stores are lined with weapons that look like military weapons to lure the google eyed customers. When have you watched a movie where the shooters are holding anything other than the military styles. It is marketing. Me, I don't wish to be hit my an M1 rifle or a 30-06 Winchester. The nuts are nuts because they're nuts.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2018)

I'm not a gun owner but I _have_ fired .38s, .45s, 12- and 20-gauge shotguns, 30-06s, even a Thompson submachine gun once.

What I don't understand is, especially in regard to these school shootings -what is the difference between a semi-and full-auto? 

Sure, you can spray-and-pray with an auto, but you can also rack up a formidable body count with a semi-automatic. The dead will still be dead.

I think the dialogue needs to leave the semi-auto area and get into guns in general. A .38 with a speed loader is still a very lethal weapon, but I haven't heard much talk about restricting those.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 22, 2018)

Yes, it has been pointed out many times by now (but some are slow to get the point) that the gun lobby's concern for the right to life extends only to the lives of those not yet born.  After that, the guns get all the devotion; the lives of the victims, not so much.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Remember America when we went to an airplane without being searched, had no weapons check at schools, courtrooms etc.? There were no school shootings, no airplane bombings.  Where did it all go wrong?  We are self destructing.




I agree.  When we turn every aspect of our culture on it's ear, the result is bound to have a profoundly negative impact.  Pandora's box has not just been opened, it's been destroyed.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Yes, it has been pointed out many times by now (but some are slow to get the point) that the gun lobby's concern for the right to life extends only to the lives of those not yet born.  After that, the guns get all the devotion; the lives of the victims, not so much.




First of all,  I am not a member of a "gun lobby."

Second... I care about all innocent life... so much so, that I support capital punishment for ALL convicted murderers.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Yes, it has been pointed out many times by now (but some are slow to get the point) that the gun lobby's concern for the right to life extends only to the lives of those not yet born.  After that, the guns get all the devotion; the lives of the victims, not so much.




And others are slow to get the point that society has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Change how children are raised and supervised, and the school shootings will stop.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 22, 2018)

*Security issues add to confluence and combination of events*

School security video on a 20 minute delay. Took first responders a while to realize that. Said the delayed slowed the apprehension of killer but not getting to victims.

http://www.wktv.com/content/national/474850633.html

School resource officer purposely stayed outside for 4-6 minutes chosing not to engage the shooter. He has since resigned.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sherif...went-in-to-building-in-florida-mass-shooting/

In this case in particular since the killer wanted to get away. I think just confronting him would've halted the attack. Regardless he should've at least pursued or confronted the killer.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 22, 2018)

I feel for that deputy. He was outside the school and heard shooting but did he have any idea where the shooter was, or how many there were? I'm not sure what a deputy is or what training they have so I will not judge him.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 22, 2018)

This brought tears to my eyes. It should be converted to a large oil painting and preserved forever in a Washington art gallery.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 22, 2018)

> First of all,  I am not a member of a "gun lobby."
> 
> Second... I care about all innocent life... so much so, that I support capital punishment for ALL convicted murderers.



First: Why so defensive, KingsX?  Where did anyone say that YOU are a member of the gun lobby?  My note referred to a recognizable group of people, I was not referring to you. Although you are certainly promoting their ideas on this bb.

Second:  Innocent life, eh?  So, how about all those people who were incarcerated on death row in your state until DNA testing proved them to be innocent, and they were let go.  Yet, they were "convicted murderers."  Where does your concern for innocent life fit in for them?

Oh, it doesn't, as they were born already.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 22, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I feel for that deputy. He was outside the school and heard shooting but did he have any idea where the shooter was, or how many there were? I'm not sure what a deputy is or what training they have so I will not judge him.



One of the primary strategies or lines of thinking is engage the shooter as soon as possible which is a lesson from Columbine. If he worked for the Sherrif's Dept or county and was armed he can't picture him not getting active shooter training even if a class.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

Sunny said:


> KingsX?  Where did anyone say that YOU are a member of the gun lobby?  My note referred to a recognizable group of people, I was not referring to you. Although you are certainly promoting their ideas on this bb.




I could use the term,  anti-gun lobbyists... but their destructive social agenda goes far beyond banning guns.
So I prefer to use the more appropriate term,  "cultural marxists."   Vladimir Putin is right about one thing...
Communists did indeed win WW2... and now cultural marxists are poised to win the culture war.


----------



## scdawson (Feb 22, 2018)

I found this article interesting about Israeli security and deterrents.  I am for raising the age to obtain a weapon and securing our schools better.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/0...ngs-are-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-common/


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I could use the term,  anti-gun lobbyists... but their destructive social agenda goes far beyond banning guns.
> So I prefer to use the more appropriate term,  "cultural marxists."   Vladimir Putin is right about one thing...
> Communists did indeed win WW2... and now cultural marxists are poised to win the culture war.




Boy, that sure is the truth.  Between the news media, Hollywood, the music industry, the ultra-violent electronic games industry, the readily available violence and porn on the internet, all controlled by cultural Marxists and little to no proper parental supervision, it's a miracle that ANY kid is normal.


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 22, 2018)

Well there was an armed officer that refused to go in and shoot the shooter. God luck to him finding a job. The Red Badge of Courage.


----------



## BobF (Feb 22, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I'm not a gun owner but I _have_ fired .38s, .45s, 12- and 20-gauge shotguns, 30-06s, even a Thompson submachine gun once.
> 
> What I don't understand is, especially in regard to these school shootings -what is the difference between a semi-and full-auto?
> 
> ...



A *FULL AUTOMATIC* rifle will clear itself of old shells, replace a fresh shell in the chamber and fire the bullet.   This will repeat as long as the trigger is held back.  *It is illegal for the gun shops to sell this type of weapon. *  It is also the way military guns do operate.

A *SEMI AUTOMATIC* weapon requires the shooter to repeat the trigger pull for each and every shot.   All other operations, clearing the chamber and positioning the new bullet will take place but no shots fired till the weapon owner pulls the trigger once again.   No repeating of shots if the trigger is not pulled again.   This is the legal way for gun shops to sell guns.

It is not the problem of guns as it will sit on the shelf for months and do nothing.   It is the strange minded people that decide to kill with a gun.    We as a people need to defend ourselves and our children by being ready to kill the potential, or active, killers.   For what ever reason it is now the schools that have become the targets.   It was airplanes till we started to fight back.   It was in random locations like parades or theaters, but most recently is has been in schools.   We need to make sure the possible killers know that attacking a school means death to them, during or after killings end.

It comes down to punishing the killers on the  job or as soon as possible afterwards.   There is no reason for not punishing these random killers.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2018)

scdawson said:


> I found this article interesting about Israeli security and deterrents.  I am for raising the age to obtain a weapon and securing our schools better.
> https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/0...ngs-are-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-common/



I think this is a must-read.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 22, 2018)

BobF said:


> A *FULL AUTOMATIC* rifle will clear itself of old shells, replace a fresh shell in the chamber and fire the bullet.   This will repeat as long as the trigger is held back.  *It is illegal for the gun shops to sell this type of weapon. *  It is also the way military guns do operate.
> 
> A *SEMI AUTOMATIC* weapon requires the shooter to repeat the trigger pull for each and every shot.   All other operations, clearing the chamber and positioning the new bullet will take place but no shots fired till the weapon owner pulls the trigger once again.   No repeating of shots if the trigger is not pulled again.   This is the legal way for gun shops to sell guns.
> 
> ...



I will ask you a question Bob.  If you cross the border into Canada you have to leave your weapons behind.

Would you feel safe in Canada?


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I could use the term,  anti-gun lobbyists... but their destructive social agenda goes far beyond banning guns.
> So I prefer to use the more appropriate term,  "cultural marxists."   Vladimir Putin is right about one thing...
> Communists did indeed win WW2... and now cultural marxists are poised to win the culture war.


Hmmm. By your definition, we Canucks are cultural Marxists, millions of Canadians would take exception to that.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 22, 2018)

Not to mention a few million Aussies too.

IMO the term is a meaningless slur.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. By your definition, we Canucks are cultural Marxists, millions of Canadians would take exception to that.




What happens in other countries does not concern me too much. Your country, your business. Certainly none of my business. 




Warrigal said:


> Not to mention a few million Aussies too.
> 
> IMO the term is a meaningless slur.




If the term is *MEANINGLESS *, then don't worry about it. If the tern is *MEANINGLESS *then there is no reason to become defensive.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Well there was an armed officer that refused to go in and shoot the shooter. God luck to him finding a job. The Red Badge of Courage.


I refuse to judge him without hearing the whole story. Courage takes many forms.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2018)

Traveler said:


> What happens in other countries does not concern me too much. Your country, your business. Certainly none of my business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective, insularity versus a more inclusive approach. In my view, “no man is an island.”


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Interesting perspective, insularity versus a more inclusive approach. In my view, “no man is an island.”





Ah, but we tried inclusive. Look where it got us. Half of an entire country gone nuts.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 22, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Well there was an armed officer that refused to go in and shoot the shooter. God luck to him finding a job.
> 
> *The Red Badge of Courage*.




No such thing as "coincidence."


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Ah, but we tried inclusive. Look where it got us. Half of an entire country gone nuts.


Interesting. An inclusive approach works for Canucks. Imperfectly, we are only human, but it works.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I refuse to judge him without hearing the whole story. Courage takes many forms.




You are correct. Courage does, indeed, take many forms. What was needed that day was physical courage and self-sacrifice for the protection of the children. If he couldn't, or wouldn't, do his job, then he should not have been there. I'm not a cop but I think I can guarantee that every good cop would have laid down his life for the kids.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Interesting. An inclusive approach works for Canucks. Imperfectly, we are only human, but it works.




That would depend on how one defines "works". There are cultural Marxists, here in America, who think things are "working" just fine. From the perspective of others, it seems like "crazy" has no limits.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2018)

Traveler said:


> That would depend on how one defines "works". There are cultural Marxists, here in America, who think things are "working" just fine. From the perspective of others, it seems like "crazy" has no limits.


Hmmm. So, reality is perception after all? Lol.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. So, reality is perception after all? Lol.




My answer would be WAY, WAY too political. So, I'll pass on that.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. So, reality is perception after all? Lol.




Now that I've had a few minutes to think about it, I will answer after all.

Yes, I do believe perception is reality.  Example:  When I was in 4th grade my step-father began to lock me up, stark naked, in a closet for 3 days at a time. My reality was pain and humiliation. That was my perception.  My step-father, however, had a different perception and reality. He thought, or so he said, that he was teaching me to obey. 

To this day, I still believe that my perception WAS reality.

Incidentally, it became a contest. He said "You will obey, or I will break you".  I thought, but never dared to say, "No! You will never break me".


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 22, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Now that I've had a few minutes to think about it, I will answer after all.
> 
> Yes, I do believe perception is reality.  Example:  When I was in 4th grade my step-father began to lock me up, stark naked, in a closet for 3 days at a time. My reality was pain and humiliation. That was my perception.  My step-father, however, had a different perception and reality. He thought, or so he said, that he was teaching me to obey.
> 
> ...



What were you doing that he thought was so bad to merit such terrible punishment.?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 22, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> What were you doing that he thought was so bad to merit such terrible punishment.?




I was, even then, a free-spirit. I would just take off and spend the day riding my bicycle miles and miles from home. I can't remember for sure, but it is likely that I neglected my chores. I do remember him saying something about "giving me a taste of jail".

Odd how memory works. I remember as clearly as if it happened yesterday, my 2 little sisters poking corn flakes under the closet door and me licking them up with my tongue.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 23, 2018)

Deputy who resigned didn't go in for 6 minutes was making $75,000 a year and made $101,000 with overtime in 2016. He was well liked. He started in 1985.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html

He was a clock puncher at this point in his career and probably knew it. Might have had ambition and motivation early in his career but that job was nothing but a paycheck this late in his career. Sad and infuriating  because every industry winds up with slugs but they just cost the company money and their fellow employees more work, not people's lives. To top it off in Florida his salary is gold which is probably why he stayed so long.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> What were you doing that he thought was so bad to merit such terrible punishment.?


A sadist metes out punishment because he/she enjoys it.


----------



## BobF (Feb 23, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I will ask you a question Bob.  If you cross the border into Canada you have to leave your weapons behind.
> 
> Would you feel safe in Canada?



I have been to  Canada many timess and never had problems.   Always met by the border patrols as I entered.   They searched my van, opened tool boxes, asked lots of questions.   I knew they were serious and tried to be open and serious with them.   

How many millions of illegal, unregistered folks does Canada have living there.   We have plenty here and more each day.   Those folks have no respect for our government and the laws we are supposed to live with, or they would respect our Constitution and our laws and enter the US legally rather than by sneaking in illegally and never registering.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler, that is child abuse of the worst order. He should have been reported to the authorities, and IMO belonged in prison.


----------



## BobF (Feb 23, 2018)

In the US if more folks and politicians at work would read the Constitution there would be a lot less of the socialist and communist stuff going on.    The US is made of hard work, not waiting for the government hand outs as many do.   Our welfare system had turned into a hand full of money to the lazy and non working.   This is not to happen if our folks were actually expected to work for housing and such.

Look around the world and you will find the countries that maintain a lot of socialist and communist ways are also some of the poorest nations of the world and their citizens do need to live a lot poorer than the US folks do.

Typical housing in many countries is smaller than 1,000 sq ft.   And in some countries that includes the current family and alll elders they can include as part of the housing load on such a small area.

 While in the US it is closer to 1,400 sq ft for the smaller housing and one family usually all involved.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 23, 2018)

BobF said:


> ... Typical housing in many countries is smaller than 1,000 sq ft. And in some countries that includes the current family and alll elders they can include as part of the housing load on such a small area.
> 
> While in the US it is closer to 1,400 sq ft for the smaller housing and one family usually all involved.



Bigger is not necessarily better.

Bigger space also means bigger utility bills, bigger maintenance costs and bigger insurance. 

Want to tie yourself to life-long debt? Get a big house. 

But of course, this is America, where big=better.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 23, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Bigger is not necessarily better.



I agree, millions of kids grew up in little Cape Cod or ranch style homes in a world where smaller was better.  The family gathered in the living room to watch Bonanza or The Wonderful World of Disney together.  They ate meals together, stood in line to use the bathroom and got along fine with just one car, television, etc...







For many kids today living in a spacious home with nothing to keep them company but a computer or a cell phone is a lonely and dangerous place to be.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 23, 2018)

... and couldn't wait to escape from that "better" lifestyle! 

Aunt Bea, you have a starry-eyed view of the past.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> ... and couldn't wait to escape from that "better" lifestyle!
> 
> Aunt Bea, you have a starry-eyed view of the past.



That's one way to look at it.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> ... and couldn't wait to escape from that "better" lifestyle!
> 
> Aunt Bea, you have a starry-eyed view of the past.



Again, a question of proportion.

Growing up in a one-room dirt-floor shack? Yeah, bigger is better.

Growing up in Mater and Pater's 6,000 SF Scarsdale McMansion? Downsizing would probably be a plus.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 23, 2018)

BobF said:


> I have been to  Canada many timess and never had problems.   Always met by the border patrols as I entered.   They searched my van, opened tool boxes, asked lots of questions.   I knew they were serious and tried to be open and serious with them.
> 
> How many millions of illegal, unregistered folks does Canada have living there.   We have plenty here and more each day.   *Those folks have no respect for our government and the laws we are supposed to live with, or they would respect our Constitution and our laws and enter the US legally rather than by sneaking in illegally and never registering*.



I have many good friends, work associates, relatives, that are here 'illegally'
Much like our forefathers 
fleeing oppression
not scamming our government
just trying for a better life

very hard workers
doing things most of us won't

the media doesn't mention them much


----------



## Sunny (Feb 23, 2018)

Well put, Gary O!

Aunt Bea, probably the answer is somewhere in between the nostalgia for the good old days and the mistaken belief that bigger and bigger and bigger is always better. I don't think, for instance, that the whole family lining up to use the bathroom was so wonderful. Most people would consider having 2 bathrooms in the house a lot better. But do we need 5?

One car may have sufficed when Mom was home most of the time, and often didn't even know how to drive. But really, would it be enough for today's families?  OTOH, I don't believe that every teenager really needs his/her own vehicle.

About the TV set, well, that whole concept is kind of obsolete. Most of the young people use other devices to watch TV. They seem to like the smaller screens, or maybe they like the privacy of being able to watch whatever they want without parental supervision. But even with only one TV set in the house, I doubt that whole families would sit clustered around it watching Sesame Street, like that family in the charming picture you posted.

Some things have improved, some have not. IMO, simply saying that the good old days were better is overly simplistic, and is generalizing some issues that are more complicated than that.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Well put, Gary O!
> 
> Aunt Bea, probably the answer is somewhere in between the nostalgia for the good old days and the mistaken belief that bigger and bigger and bigger is always better. I don't think, for instance, that the whole family lining up to use the bathroom was so wonderful. Most people would consider having 2 bathrooms in the house a lot better. But do we need 5?
> 
> ...



Thank you for telling me where the answer lies!

The point that I was trying to make in my earlier post is that when kids grew up in smaller homes with limited consumer goods it helped them to develop various life skills that hopefully make them better adults.  Things like patience, negotiating skills, sharing, empathy, etc...


----------



## hearlady (Feb 23, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree, millions of kids grew up in little Cape Cod or ranch style homes in a world where smaller was better.  The family gathered in the living room to watch Bonanza or The Wonderful World of Disney together.  They ate meals together, stood in line to use the bathroom and got along fine with just one car, television, etc...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was when all this new technology starting was supposed to make our lives better but we've become slaves to it in a way. The vision was a four day work week so families had more time together but people work more and more hours nowadays.
Yes, kids at home with the vast amount of sensory overload is dangerous.
BTW we had 8 kids, one bathroom. That was just wonderful!


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 23, 2018)

BobF said:


> I have been to  Canada many timess and never had problems.   Always met by the border patrols as I entered.   They searched my van, opened tool boxes, asked lots of questions.   I knew they were serious and tried to be open and serious with them.
> 
> How many millions of illegal, unregistered folks does Canada have living there.   We have plenty here and more each day.   Those folks have no respect for our government and the laws we are supposed to live with, or they would respect our Constitution and our laws and enter the US legally rather than by sneaking in illegally and never registering.



It's not millilons of illegal, unregistered folks that is the problem.

It's the millions of illegal unregistered  guns that are the problem.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> ... and couldn't wait to escape from that "better" lifestyle!
> 
> Aunt Bea, you have a starry-eyed view of the past.




Aunt Bea has an accurate view of the past for the majority of baby boomers.
This is how I grew up... in a 1000 sq ft house with my parents and two siblings.
My parents were family-oriented and our family did everything together... holidays,
vacations, drive-in movies, and the rare times we ate out.  My father was the sole
breadwinner... yet he was able to buy a house and we lived comfortably.  Like most
mothers of that time, my mother was a homemaker.  I used to walk home from
elementary school to eat  lunch my mother made for me.  My mother was also 
Girl Scout leader.  Btw... also like most families,  my father kept guns in the house
and carried a gun with him when we went on weekend road trips and camping vacations.
The gun was mainly to shoot rattlesnakes [I was born in west Texas]... nowadays,
there are much more dangerous snakes that are allowed to roam and prey on society.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

The past is dead and the future is as yet unborn. It is the present that must be addressed.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> It's not millilons of illegal, unregistered folks that is the problem.
> 
> It's the millions of illegal unregistered  guns that are the problem.





I wonder... is there any part of cultural marxism  [which espouses open border globalist internationalism] that liberals don't embrace ??


----------



## Olivia (Feb 23, 2018)

When you have to argue politics, you know you're losing the argument.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 23, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I wonder... is there any part of cultural marxism  [which espouses open border globalist internationalism] that liberals don't embrace ??


It would be prudent to NOT discuss your particular brand of politics here as we have been warned not to do.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> The past is dead and the future is as yet unborn. It is the present that must be addressed.





It's prudent to learn from history... both the good and the evil... otherwise you might repeat the evil.

Which brings me back to cultural marxism... the evil social agenda of the Marxist-Leninist Bolsheviks that they used to intentionally destroy Christian Russia and the foundation of Western Christian civilization, the family.  

Ironically,  Communist cultural marxists also worked overtime to destroy post-WW1 German society which accounts for the evil depraved degeneracy of the Weimar Republic.  Hitler came to power because he vowed to destroy the Communist cultural marxists.  

Vladimir Putin is right when he keeps saying over and over that Communists won WW2. Since the end of WW2, there has been little resistance to the ever progressing cultural marxist agenda that is now poised to destroy all nations.


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 23, 2018)

KingsX said:


> I wonder... is there any part of cultural marxism  [which espouses open border globalist internationalism] that liberals don't embrace ??


Suppose you tell us?


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

The link did not work


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Suppose you tell us?




The same ideology Marxist-Leninist Bolsheviks forced on Russia is being promoted by cultural marxists today.

The Boksheviks overtly admitted their intent was to destroy religious and moral foundations of the country which ultimately resulted in the destruction of the family, destruction of thousands of churches and the mass murder of millions of Christians.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> It would be prudent to NOT discuss your particular brand of politics here as we have been warned not to do.




Reminds me of a Bible verse that says out of fear the people did not speak openly about Jesus.
Jerusalem at the time was occupied and ruled by the enemy.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 23, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Reminds me of a Bible verse that says out of fear the people did not speak openly about Jesus.
> Jerusalem at the time was occupied and ruled by the enemy.


I'm not talking about your religious talk, but rather your political views about liberals,etc.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 23, 2018)

911 said:


> Just announced...No school again tomorrow.



What the hey is going on in PA? Two more schools closed, a student shot himself in the bathoom, another "sleepwalked' 4 miles and entered his school in  the middle of the night!

https://www.ydr.com/story/news/educ...after-shooting-threat-social-media/366229002/



Central York threats: Schools closed for Friday, the third day in a row
Red Lion shooting survivor on Central York threats: 'It's not funny. It's terrifying'
Central York school threats: 'Someone out there, someone's child knows who sent this'
York County schools bring in extra police, battle rumors in wake of threats, Fla. shooting
No threat to Southern Middle School after social media post investigated, police say
Hanover-Adams school threats: Social media rumors 'wreaking havoc at this point'
Teen arrested, charged for threats against Hanover High School
South Western High School student threatened to 'shoot up the school,' police say


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> I'm not talking about your religious talk, but rather your political views about liberals,etc.




For me... this is not "politics"... it's my religion... and I don't compromise.

I think of it this way: Jesus told His disciples to travel to many different towns with the truth.
But if one town refuses that truth... to not waste their time... but to dust off their feet and
move on to the next town. I think of forums as virtual towns. Like Jesus' disciples, I have
been virtually mocked, attacked and killed [ie, banned]... but that does not keep me from
going to the next town [forum] with the truth. Jesus also said, those towns who reject
the truth will be punished. Ironically, Jesus also told His disciples, they will not be able
to travel to all towns before His second coming.
.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

I keep repeating that there is something fundamentally wrong with the "newer" ways of raising a family. 

Where were the parents of the florida killer ? Why did they not see what was happening under their very noses ?
Why were they not more involved with him? 

Time and again we hear that the parents, of the various school shooters, were "shocked".

If the parents had been much more involved with their own children, and had been loving, concerned, active parents, these killings would never have happened.


----------



## rgp (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I keep repeating that there is something fundamentally wrong with the "newer" ways of raising a family.
> 
> Where were the parents of the florida killer ? Why did they not see what was happening under their very noses ?
> Why were they not more involved with him?
> ...




    Weren't the 'parents' actually dead ?...I believe he was in the custody of foster parents ?


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 23, 2018)

He and his brother were adopted as babies by nice people. The father died when Cruz was 9. The mother fought an uphill battle trying to help this kid. She called the police something like 20 times to try to talk to the boy. He had medication and counseling.  So you don't need to repeat yourself anymore. 

When she died last Nov, the State placed him and his natural younger brother with this lady in a trailer, who threw him out over the gun. After that, I don't know.


----------



## SifuPhil (Feb 23, 2018)

KingsX said:


> ... Hitler came to power because he vowed to destroy the Communist cultural marxists ...



So ...

People that want to eliminate cultural Marxism should be associated with Hitler?

Got it.


----------



## BobF (Feb 23, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Bigger is not necessarily better.
> 
> Bigger space also means bigger utility bills, bigger maintenance costs and bigger insurance.
> 
> ...



It is not a rule for all of us to live in larger houses but it sure is a nice possibility that is not available in many of our European or other countries.   Shoe horn living is mandated by their leadership and budgets.   In the US many do choose to live in smaller housing for various living choices.   But most in the US do choose the larger housing.   And it all depends on where you live too.   I know live in a  1,400 sq ft house with a market value of a bit over $100,000.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I keep repeating that there is something fundamentally wrong with the "newer" ways of raising a family.
> 
> Where were the parents of the florida killer ? Why did they not see what was happening under their very noses ?
> Why were they not more involved with him?
> ...






There are many school shooters. The most recent is but one example of many.  Unless I am mistaken the Sandy Hook shooter's mother bought him his guns. How about the parents of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the Colombine killers? 

In any event, nice, decent, well supervised, kids don't just wake up one morning and decide to kill. The process takes time. I just want to know where the parents were during that time ?  Where was the supervision ?

The parents of our generations watched us like hawks.  If we were caught smoking cigarettes we were in big troubles. Not, today !  Many of today's kids go unsupervised, free to do anything they please.  School shootings are the price to be paid for this new style of parenting.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 23, 2018)

KingsX said:


> For me... this is not "politics"... it's my religion... and I don't compromise.
> 
> I think of it this way: Jesus told His disciples to travel to many different towns with the truth.
> But if one town refuses that truth... to not waste their time... but to dust off their feet and
> ...



This isn't anything new. Atheist/Skeptics would go around to Christian forums and mock and challenge them. That's how I got on one of those skeptic boards, and not just me (except that I was on a grief board) wanting to go there and complain. Except that I ended up staying for 17 years and still going. In time the group has shrunken and the difference is that we who stayed hadn't changed our minds, but learned to live with each other's differences. It's not impossible.

I don't know if you meant it that way, but the U.S. is not a theocracy and that's actually what the first settlers and founding fathers were wanting to get away from. We can still live together in peace in spite of our differences if we really truly want to.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I keep repeating that there is something fundamentally wrong with the "newer" ways of raising a family.
> 
> Where were the parents of the florida killer ? Why did they not see what was happening under their very noses ?
> Why were they not more involved with him?
> ...


By this reasoning alone, never mind the ****** slavery which defined my childhood, I should be a mass murderer several times over. I walk a different path. Yet, on the outside, my childhood did not mirror the horror which lurked within.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

.

I posted many facts from history. 
 But as usual,  very few learn from history.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> By this reasoning alone, never mind the ****** slavery which defined my childhood, I should be a mass murderer several times over. I walk a different path. Yet, on the outside, my childhood did not mirror the horror which lurked within.




Yes, I understand. I also walk a different path from the horror which lurked within. But, you, above all other people, know full well that people react differently to any event or series of events. Who can say what other factors played a part in keeping us from becoming mass murderers ? 

Most kids who are not loved and supervised by their parents do not commit mass murder or go on to commit other types of violent crimes.   But enough kids do commit those types of crimes that we should be *very *concerned about lack of supervision.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Yes, I understand. I also walk a different path from the horror which lurked within. But, you, above all other people, know full well that people react differently to any event or series of events. Who can say what other factors played a part in keeping us from becoming mass murderers ?
> 
> Most kids who are not loved and supervised by their parents do not commit mass murder or go on to commit other types of violent crimes.   But enough kids do commit those types of crimes that we should be *very *concerned about lack of supervision.


While I do believe in appropriate parenting, I feel it is simplistic to draw a parallel between mass shootings and modern parenting. Fact is, we don’t really know why these kids snap.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> While I do believe in appropriate parenting, I feel it is simplistic to draw a parallel between mass shootings and modern parenting. Fact is, we don’t really know why these kids snap.




True enough. We do not know with 100% certainty.  But something does cause the kid to snap. Is it so unreasonable to consider lack of proper parental supervision, as *one *very important determining factor ?


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> So ...
> 
> People that want to eliminate cultural Marxism should be associated with Hitler?
> 
> Got it.



Apparently we have a choice of being cultural Marxists or cultureless Fascists. I know which side I'm taking.


----------



## Sunny (Feb 23, 2018)

"If you liberals keep getting your way, we're all gonna hear one loud flush.  The sound of the U.S. of A. going straight down the terlet."  - Archie Bunker, about 45 years ago


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

Lotsa Archie Bunkers around these parts.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> True enough. We do not know with 100% certainty.  But something does cause the kid to snap. Is it so unreasonable to consider lack of proper parental supervision, as *one *very important determining factor ?


Unreasonable, no, not enough data yet to calculate the probability of a causal link to the shootings.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Apparently we have a choice of being cultural Marxists or cultureless Fascists. I know which side I'm taking.




We have a clear choice.

Option #1:  If it feels good, do it. Anything goes. Get as weird as we like. No morality. No discipline. No concern for anyone except ourselves

Option #2:  Teach delayed gratification, manners, work ethic, moral strength, self discipline, fortitude and respect.

I know which option  I believe in.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> "If you liberals keep getting your way, we're all gonna hear one loud flush.  The sound of the U.S. of A. going straight down the terlet."  - Archie Bunker, about 45 years ago




Insert loud sound of terlet flushing!  Insert sound of cultural Marxists cheering.


----------



## Olivia (Feb 23, 2018)

> We have a clear choice.
> 
> Option #1: If it feels good, do it. Anything goes. Get as weird as we like. No morality. No discipline. No concern for anyone except ourselves
> 
> ...



Logical fallacy: false dichotomy.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We have a clear choice.
> 
> Option #1:  If it feels good, do it. Anything goes. Get as weird as we like. No morality. No discipline. No concern for anyone except ourselves
> 
> ...



Good grief. You really think that's the definition of Marxism and fascism? The educational system in this country has let us down terribly.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Logical fallacy: false dichotomy.




Well, well, well. Look who popped up. The gal who said she would never again have anything to do with me.  :biggrin-new:


----------



## Camper6 (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I keep repeating that there is something fundamentally wrong with the "newer" ways of raising a family.
> 
> Where were the parents of the florida killer ? Why did they not see what was happening under their very noses ?
> Why were they not more involved with him?
> ...


His parents were dead.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We have a clear choice.
> 
> Option #1:  If it feels good, do it. Anything goes. Get as weird as we like. No morality. No discipline. No concern for anyone except ourselves
> 
> ...


I believe in option #2, I raised my children to believe likewise. However, I am able to do so and still remain a liberal without experiencing any cognitive dissonance whatsoever. Being an honourable person speaks to character, it is not automatically tied to one’s political affiliation. I have seen the deleterious effects of an overly regimented lifestyle. Every bit as damaging as one wthout social responsibility. In fact, an overly rigid mindset all too often lends itself to fanaticism. That is scary.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> .... an overly rigid mindset all too often lends itself to fanaticism. That is scary.




I totally agree. Cultural Marxism is very scary.


----------



## Butterfly (Feb 23, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> His parents were dead.



And he wasn't in state foster care, either.  At 18, he aged out of any state foster care placement.  He was crashing at the house of a friend, whose parents allowed him to stay there.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I totally agree. Cultural Marxism is very scary.


All forms of fanaticism are scary. All too often, labels, particularly pejorative ones, divide people unnecessarily.


----------



## KingsX (Feb 23, 2018)

.

Feb 23, 2018

*Some Stockton students become violent during anti-gun protest*

" STOCKTON, Calif. (KCRA) —

At least five students were arrested Friday as hundreds of others from several Stockton high schools walked out of classes in protest of gun violence after last week's deadly shooting at a Florida high school.

Students at Stagg, Edison, Chavez, Lincoln and Village Oak high schools were walking along streets, creating traffic problems in the area as streets were blocked off.

Stockton police said some students threw rocks and damaged both police and citizen vehicles.

Five arrests were made, including charges of battery on an officer, resisting arrest, taking an officer's baton and vandalizing vehicles, including patrol vehicles, Stockton police said.

Those arrested ranged from 14-years-old to 18-years-old. The 18-year-old was booked into the San Joaquin County Jail and the juveniles were cited to their parents, according to Stockton Police. "

more at link

http://www.kcra.com/article/some-stockton-students-become-violent-during-anti-gun-protest-1/18698723


----------



## Olivia (Feb 23, 2018)

Just to be clear, I referenced a logical fallacy in this thread. It didn't matter to me who wrote it. It could have been the tooth fairy for all I care.

The logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (or dilemma) is when there are two options and the thinking process is that the choice has to be either all one or all the other. Real life doesn't work that way. And if a person really thinks that way, it makes life very hard, for oneself and other people. It's faulty thinking, period.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Unreasonable, no, not enough data yet to calculate the probability of a causal link to the shootings.



Some kids who are odd are constantly shunned by their peers. Who knows how long someone can take constant rejection and alienation before snapping? I think the movie Carrie, while utter nonsense, was pointing to this emotional pain.

It was certainly the case with Martin Bryant, the Port Arthur shooter.  He certainly was a very isolated and lonely individual. He had money and liked to fly a lot because the person seated next to him could not get away for the duration of the flight.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Some kids who are odd are constantly shunned by their peers. Who knows how long someone can take constant rejection and alienation before snapping? I think the movie Carrie, while utter nonsense, was pointing to this emotional pain.
> 
> It was certainly the case with Martin Bryant, the Port Arthur shooter.  He certainly was a very isolated and lonely individual. He had money and liked to fly a lot because the person seated next to him could not get away for the duration of the flight.



I hear you, and a firm link may yet be made.


----------



## Ruthanne (Feb 23, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> All forms of fanaticism are scary. All too often, labels, particularly pejorative ones, divide people unnecessarily.


Yes, that is for sure!


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

Most of the people who commit mass murder by gun are either shot or commit suicide. 
Capturing them alive gives us the best chance to learn more about how they came to this point.

An opportunity has been presented. I hope it is followed up.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Just to be clear, I referenced a logical fallacy in this thread. It didn't matter to me who wrote it. It could have been the tooth fairy for all I care.
> 
> The logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (or dilemma) is when there *are two options and the thinking process is that the choice has to be* *either all one or all the other*. *Real life doesn't work that way.* *And if a person really thinks that way, it* *makes life very hard, for oneself and other* *people. It's faulty thinking, period. *




You couldn't be more wrong. 

A recovering alcoholic is either clean and sober or he/she isn't. There is no middle ground

A women is either pregnant or she is not. There is no such thing as a little bit pregnant. Again, no middle ground.

A man either respects women or he doesn't.  No middle ground.

A person is either a liar or not. There is no middle ground

A person is either a racist or he is not.  Once again, no middle ground.

A person is either honest or he is not. No middle ground.

An Amish person either follows the dictates of his/her religion or not.  If he/she does not, they are shunned. No middle ground.

I could cite a hundred examples of situations that are either black or white.

In the case of an Amish person, *IT IS ALL OR NOTHING.* And, it does not make the lives of the Amish very hard for themselves, or other people.
*Their* *thinking is certainly not faulty, period.*


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2018)

During my lengthy career, one of the lessons which has repeatedly smacked me across the face is this, human beings are complex, the human mind incredibly so. One size fits all answers rarely work because of this. Black and white thinking may appear to be applicable in small doses when dealing with some issues, but, overall, it almost invariably 
fails to deal with the whole problem. Complex problems require complex solutions. We are not Pavlov’s dogs. Critical thinking 

begets questions, questions beget the capacity to think independently, often, out of this process, a new mindset appears, one which embraces tolerance and moderation, rather than a rigid groupthink, my way or the highway philosophy. It takes courage to leave the herdmind behind and risk thinking for oneself. That way can lead to enlightenment if one pursues it with a loving heart, and an earnest desire to grow, and to serve humanity. My lengthy sojourn in Hell taught me that compassion  is the greatest force of all.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> During my lengthy career, one of the lessons which has repeatedly smacked me across the face is this, human beings are complex, the human mind incredibly so. Two dimensional, one size fits all answers rarely work because of this. Black and white thinking may appear to work in small doses when dealing with some issues, but, overall, it almost invariably fails to deal with the whole problem. Complex problems require complex solutions. We are not Pavlov’s dogs.



What are you trying to say, that we don't get to blame the shooters' mothers? That's so wrong. This is the U.S., where women are to blame for everything.


----------



## Traveler (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> All forms of fanaticism are scary. All too often, labels, particularly pejorative ones, divide people unnecessarily.




Based on the some of posts in this thread, as well as other threads, I fail to see how people could possibly be MORE divided. Some of the more vitriolic posts have been deleted but the people who posted them do not appear the least bit interested in hearing anyone else's opinions. Sauce for the goose.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Based on the some of posts in this thread, as well as other threads, I fail to see how people could possibly be MORE divided. Some of the more vitriolic posts have been deleted but the people who posted them do not appear the least bit interested in hearing anyone else's opinions. Sauce for the goose.


Hopefully, the death of seventeen innocents merits better treatment than the possible devolution of this thread into a  primate show of dominance. That only serves to exacerbate the problem, while disrespecting the dead.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hopefully, the death of seventeen innocents merits better treatment than the possible devolution of this thread into a  primate show of dominance. That only serves to exacerbate the problem, while disrespecting the dead.



Not to mention, we already know some posters' opinions without having to read them. I can relate to Charlie Brown when an adult is talking down to him.

The death of 17 people is the perfect occasion for a pi**ing contest, no?


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## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

I think that,  sometimes, people may struggle to maintain humility when they are certain they are right. Sometimes, not.


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

.

Secular humanists do not believe in absolute truth.  They preach what is called, "consensus truth."  They think "truths" to govern society can and should be debated,  rationalized and compromised until there is a majority consensus that determines  "truth."   But this humanistic "truth" is not written in stone.  It is fluid and changeable at the whim of the  majority.   Democracy is perfect for this secular humanist process. Anything... no matter how immoral, degenerate and destructive... can be debated and legalized according to the popular public opinion of the time [which can and is manipulated by masters of propaganda.]

Cultural marxists are also atheists who oppose [sometimes violently as in Bolshevik Russia] true believers in religions that teach absolute truth. The irony with cultural marxism... it too has a litany of core beliefs shared by most other cultural marxists... so it also borders on a religion.  Like secular humanists,  cultural marxists will preach tolerance and compromise to others as a way to weaken and destroy their enemies.


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## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Secular humanists do not believe in absolute truth.  They preach what is called, "consensus truth."  They think "truths" to govern society can and should be debated,  rationalized and compromised until there is a majority consensus that determines  "truth."   But this humanistic "truth" is not written in stone.  It is fluid and changeable at the whim of the  majority.   Democracy is perfect for this secular humanist process. Anything... no matter how immoral, degenerate and destructive... can be debated and legalized according to the popular public opinion of the time [which can and is manipulated by masters of propaganda.]
> 
> Cultural marxists are also atheists who oppose [sometimes violently as in Bolshevik Russia] true believers in religions that teach absolute truth. The irony with cultural marxism... it too has a litany of core beliefs shared by most other cultural marxists... so it also borders on a religion.  Like secular humanists,  cultural marxists will preach tolerance and compromise to others as a way to weaken and destroy their enemies.



I don’t understand what this has to do with the subject at hand. Do I misunderstand you, or you suggesting that all liberal  thinking individuals automatically wish to destroy those who espouse a different viewpoint by  pretending to be compassionate and reasonable? That we are fakes and sabateurs? That all of us are atheists? I assure you, that is not the case. I have devoted 

myself to serving those who are emotionally broken, because I survived, and every person I can assist brings some justice to those whom as a child I could not save. I support vets, with hugely debilitating CPTSD, and other clients who have been shattered by horrendous experiences. This gives my life purpose and meaning. I am honoured to be of service. Compassion is the public face of my religion, 

although I am not an atheist. I serve the Divine Feminine in whatever form it takes. Love and kindness are the benchmarks of my morality. I work with a diverse group of colleagues of all colours and creeds who share the same vision. We are not a threat to society, we nurture it.


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

.

In the Bible,  during an evil time,  there is a verse that says...
"In those days there was no king" [in other words, no absolute]
"so every man did whatever he thought was right."


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## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

“Love one another.”


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> “Love one another.”



I would say that _John 13:34_ trumps _Judges 17:6_.


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## Traveler (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I serve the *Divine Feminine* in whatever form it takes. Love and kindness are the benchmarks of my morality. I work with a diverse group of colleagues of all colours and creeds who share the same vision. We are not a threat to society, we nurture it.




WOW ! This is the first time I have read that feminists are actually, literally, Gods. 

I do NOT say this to you personally but...

I have known, much to my grief, some very angry militant feminists. Of one thing I can assure you, they do not nurture men. They hate men with a purple passion and do everything in their power to destroy men. They will attempt to utterly destroy his self-worth and walk away with no more concern for his feelings than if they had stepped on a cockroach.


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I would say that _John 13:34_ trumps _Judges 17:6_.




YOU would say ?

Ironically,  by saying that, you share the mentality in Judges 17:6


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

KingsX said:


> YOU would say ?
> 
> Ironically, by saying that, you share the mentality in Judges 17:6



Yes, *I* would say and in fact just _did_.

Now we're not permitted to comment on Biblical verse? 

Wow, such a cultural Marxist atmosphere around here ...


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## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> WOW ! This is the first time I have read that feminists are actually, literally, Gods.
> 
> I do NOT say this to you personally but...
> 
> I have known, much to my grief, some very angry militant feminists. Of one thing I can assure you, they do not nurture men. They hate men with a purple passion and do everything in their power to destroy men. They will attempt to utterly destroy his self-worth and walk away with no more concern for his feelings than if they had stepped on a cockroach.



Excuse me, my post had absolutely nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with a feminine aspect of God. I am referring to that aspect which is motherly and nurturing. I grew up in Christian church where God was equally referred to as he or she.


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## Traveler (Feb 24, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Not to mention, *we already know some posters' opinions without having to read them*.




I suspected that some people do not even bother to read some peoples posts, but until now I had no confirmation. So, much for the so-called "inclusion".  To the leftist, inclusion means, "Accept him as long as his ideas align with your own".


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## Shalimar (Feb 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I suspected that some people do not even bother to read some peoples posts, but until now I had no confirmation. So, much for the so-called "inclusion".  To the leftist, inclusion means, "Accept him as long as his ideas align with your own".


To me, there are no enemies here, merely people expressing disparate views. I am one of those leftists, yet you are not my enemy.


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## Traveler (Feb 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> To me, there are no enemies here, merely people expressing disparate views. I am one of those leftists, yet you are not my enemy.




Nor are you my enemy but...
I wish you could have read some of the things people posted before they got deleted.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I suspected that some people do not even bother to read some peoples posts, but until now I had no confirmation. So, much for the so-called "inclusion". To the leftist, inclusion means, "Accept him as long as his ideas align with your own".



Amazing how he put me on Ignore yet has the stones to post this.


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I wish you could have read some of the things people posted before they got deleted.




Who/what was deleted ??


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## Traveler (Feb 24, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Who/what was deleted ??




Best to let sleeping dogs lie.  Have a pleasant week-end.


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

.


*Lawmaker asks Gov. Scott to remove Broward Sheriff Scott Israel after Parkland shooting*


" BOCA RATON, Fla. (CBS12)  

*Rep. Bill Hager (Boca Raton), the chairman of the Florida House of Justice Appropriations, has called on Gov. Rick Scott to remove Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel - a power the governor has under Florida law - from his post for neglect of duty and incompetence in regards to the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.*

In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

more at link

http://cbs12.com/news/local/lawmake...-sheriff-scott-israel-after-parkland-shooting


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

The cowardly killer suspect inherited 800,000 dollars and will probably have to pay for his own lawyers now. sniff sniff

https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/florida-shooter-inheritance/2018/02/21/id/844508/

If his current lawyers are smart I'd start spending money on shrinks right away to prep for an insanity defense because high profile cases mean high profile and expensive lawyers which means there won't be much left over for the courtroom after the docs.


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## Stormy (Feb 25, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> We have crime. Sydney is a big city.
> 
> Not far from where I live in the suburbs a man was recently murdered by a gunman while he was sitting in a café. The police have tracked down the culprit and arrested him. Yesterday a known criminal was assassinated in his car by two masked gunmen. They got away. The murdered man had served time for killing a man at Sydney airport by smashing his head in with a bollard. This was during a fight between two bikie gangs.
> 
> ...



I wish people would stop comparing places like Australia to the United States of America, apples to oranges in many respects. Here's one article is it a lie?

"Australia only has 23 million people living in it (with a large amount of those very spread out). But let’s just stick to quantity and not density. The United States has nearly 14 times as many people, at nearly 320 million. 

So if you compare apples to apples, if Australia had as many people as the United States and the ratio of mass killings to total populace remained the same, Australia would have 42 mass killings compared to 29 in the United States. That is 13 more!

Finally, if someone really wants to kill someone, they will find a way. Let’s look at the recent Cairns child killings in Australia where someone killed 8 children with a knife. 

Or the Quaker Hill Nursing home arson in Australia that killed 11 by fire. 

Or the Lin killings, also in Australia, that killed 5 with a hammer.

The facts are this: gun control doesn’t work, and pointing towards programs on other countries that are statistically manipulative does not solve the problem. Bad people will still find a way to get guns or kill by other methods. 

I would much rather people have the right to own a gun and give them the capacity to defend themselves than take away that right and leave them defenseless from those that will kill or harm regardless."

https://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2016/06/no-mass-shootings-the-myth-of-australia-gun-control-policy/


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## Olivia (Feb 25, 2018)

> I would much rather people have the right to own a gun and give them the capacity to defend themselves than take away that right and leave them defenseless from those that will kill or harm regardless."



So far I haven't seen anyone describing what it would take to repeal the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2018)

Stormy said:


> I wish people would stop comparing places like Australia to the United States of America, apples to oranges in many respects. Here's one article is it a lie?
> 
> "Australia only has 23 million people living in it (with a large amount of those very spread out). But let’s just stick to quantity and not density. The United States has nearly 14 times as many people, at nearly 320 million.
> 
> ...



Stormy, I agree that Australia has an advantage by being underpopulated for the area of the land mass. We are also fortunate in that we don't share a land border with any other country which make border control a bit more effective than otherwise.

However, speaking of being statistically manipulative, you cannot simply compare mass shootings in US with total mass murders in Australia and say that is comparing apples with apples. What about adding in non gun related mass murders in US as well. 

Also, given that crime statistics are usually presented as a rate (usually per 100,000), it is simply wrong to scale up the rate by multiplying by a number such as 14. That is a mathematical error.

Finally, over what time period are you comparing the two sets of figures? One year, a decade? It makes a big difference if we aren't comparing stats from the same times. Before 1996 our figures were shockingly bad. In colonial times massacres of indigenous groups was common although not always recorded. 

Since 1996 things have been a lot better although the rate of domestic violence murders is still a big problem, as is indicated by your post. The Cairns killings were carried out by the mother who was deranged and the Lin killings were by an uncle who was sexually fixated on a niece. We have a lot of work still to do in the field of domestic violence but we are working on it.

I've looked at the link and see that it is for a time period 2011 - 2014. I also note that a couple of Australian mass murders, usually involving arson, have been omitted.

This link is to a complete list going back to 1828 and finishing at January 2017. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

I would very much like to see a similar list for US mass murders by any method to be able to compare the two.


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## win231 (May 8, 2019)

Murder is a matter of _will_, not the availability of weapons.  Looking for a simple solution (it's those damn guns) won't solve the problem.

As for "Evil Assault Weapons" enabling the killing of more people, consider the number of victims in the worst mass shootings in America.

The Las Vegas shooting?  52 victims.
The nightclub in Florida?  50 victims.

How many were killed in the Federal building in Oklahoma without a firearm being used? 185 were killed in less than one second. Should we blame the availability of fertilizer & diesel fuel used by Timothy McVeigh to make the bomb?  How many were killed on 9-11 without a firearm being used?  3,000.

In Nice, France in 2016, a truck driven by a terrorist was used to kill 86 people.  Truck ban?
And this happened in 1927:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster   Again, no firearm used.

If I thought it would help, I'd support banning all firearms, even though I am a gun owner.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 8, 2019)

If you did away completely with the doctor/pt. privilege, would that stop somebody from privately selling  a AR- 15, to a KNOWN deranged killer?
Nope.


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## Butterfly (May 8, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If you did away completely with the doctor/pt. privilege, would that stop somebody from privately selling  a AR- 15, to a KNOWN deranged killer?
> Nope.



Besides which, if the privilege were removed, does anybody think for a minute that crazies are going to be honest with their doctors and admit they are having homicidal thoughts?  Nope.


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