# E=mc2....the laws of physics....consciousness



## hangover (Nov 15, 2015)

So here it is eleven pm, and this stuff is keeping me awake. I'll start with a quote from Einstein..."Once you realize that everything that exists, come from nothing, that is something, that is nothing....It's easy to wear stripes with plaid."

Is E=mc2 relative if there is no consciousness? Is there time without consciousness? How can there be laws of physics without consciousness? How can there be any laws of anything without a god to make those laws? How can there be any order without laws?

The opposite of order is chaos...correct? Nothing from nothing is nothing. 

Without the laws of physics, there wouldn't be any order in anyone's body. No veins, no organs, no life.

Well, I've already admitted to being a nut job...this pretty much proves it. But it's impossible to sleep, when this stuff is always in my head. 

Any contributions will be appreciated.


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## imp (Nov 15, 2015)

hangover said:


> So here it is eleven pm, and this stuff is keeping me awake. I'll start with a quote from Einstein..."Once you realize that everything that exists, come from nothing, that is something, that is nothing....It's easy to wear stripes with plaid."
> 
> Is E=mc2 relative if there is no consciousness? Is there time without consciousness? How can there be laws of physics without consciousness? How can there be any laws of anything without a god to make those laws? How can there be any order without laws?
> 
> ...



I'll Bite! Remember Billy Joel's line, "I just may be the looonatic you're lookin' for"...?

Can't sleep thinking about what? The abstract?

E=mc2 defines the amount of energy present if a mass m is converted entirely to energy. It's a f*&k of a lot! The connections to physiology you mention, elude me.

Chaotic motion of say millions of like particles might be definitive of Atrial Fibrillation (AFIB, as shown in the damned T-V commercials). The waving of millions of stalks of grain in a field due to the wind is thought to be semi-chaotic. 

Picture a billion muscle cells packed closely together in a bunch, having a few hollow spaces within, each cell contracting in particular time with it's neighbor to produce sufficient force to "squeeze" blood cells away from them, through a valve, into the next chamber, or out to the lungs or into the Aorta, and you get (maybe) the scene showing how the heart performs it's miracle. 

Muscle cells can only impart force in one direction, as they contract. The ones that drag your wrist towards your chest must be acted upon  by others, which drag the wrist back away, perhaps to allow scratching some offending spot elsewhere. Muscle cell motion is thought to be a type of controlled chaos. 

Now it's time to rest.   imp


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## Underock1 (Nov 15, 2015)

Its the tree in the forest thing. Of course it makes a noise, whether you hear it or not. We all perceive reality differently and certainly differently than other life forms, but there _is _a reality, consciously perceived or not. 
As far as something from nothing. That may not be the case. There may have always been something. Both concepts are almost impossible to imagine for us poor humans as everything we experience has a beginning and an end.
As for an intentional planned order for the universe, I do not see it. I certainly don't picture a God sitting down at a drafting table and saying, "Let me see, If I put the Earth in this exact spot..." I see it as totally random chance. Just a never ending chain reaction of forces acting on other forces. Kind of like a never ending game of billiards. I have been fortunate to ricochet  
off of some wonderful people in my life. 

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no credentials to back up the above. Just my personal observations and conclusions after bouncing off the bumpers for 83 years.:shrug:


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## Linda (Nov 15, 2015)

Well, you 3 sit up tonight and ponder all of this.  I'm afraid most of it is over my head.


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## Karen99 (Nov 16, 2015)

I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from.  I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things.  Remember that song..Dust In The Wind?  I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why.  Oh my...must be a billion answers.  

I respect the science that brings us some of the answers.  When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been.  Everyone is.  I believe it's all woven into something that matters.  I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.  

It was fun sharing my thoughts. Thanks for listening.:2cents:


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## Underock1 (Nov 16, 2015)

Linda said:


> Well, you 3 sit up tonight and ponder all of this.  I'm afraid most of it is over my head.



I:shussh:  Its way over mine too.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 16, 2015)

My husband has a degree in physics. He says he sometimes dreams about formulas etc. He tries to explain it to me but I tell him my brain is full!


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## Underock1 (Nov 16, 2015)

Karen99 said:


> I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from.  I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things.  Remember that song..Dust In The Wind?  I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why.  Oh my...must be a billion answers.
> 
> I respect the science that brings us some of the answers.  When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been.  Everyone is.  I believe it's all woven into something that matters.  I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.
> 
> It was fun sharing my thoughts. Thanks for listening.:2cents:



I think you've got it figured out pretty good there, Karen. Thoughts worth sharing. Don't have to be a physicist. Just pay attention to what you observe.:jumelles:


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## chic (Nov 16, 2015)

The opposite of order is not chaos, it's randomness. Is randomness chaotic? No. It's just less predictable. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly. 

Consciousness is not necessary for the passage of time to occur, only one's awareness that time is passing. I agree with Underock1. It's the tree in the forest question again and of course the tree makes a sound because the laws of physics are not subject to the presence or absence of man. It would be pompous to think so.

Good thread though.


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## Underock1 (Nov 16, 2015)

chic said:


> The opposite of order is not chaos, it's randomness. Is randomness chaotic? No. It's just less predictable. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.
> 
> Consciousness is not necessary for the passage of time to occur, only one's awareness that time is passing. I agree with Underock1. It's the tree in the forest question again and of course the tree makes a sound because the laws of physics are not subject to the presence or absence of man. It would be pompous to think so.
> 
> Good thread though.



No shortage of Pompous human beings though. :iamking:


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## Karen99 (Nov 16, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I think you've got it figured out pretty good there, Karen. Thoughts worth sharing. Don't have to be a physicist. Just pay attention to what you observe.:jumelles:



Thanks, Underock..I agree about the paying attention.  I just know time goes by way too fast now. . I remember when I was a kid waiting for Christmas it seemed to nearly stand still...yet it's always the same 24 hours.


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## Karen99 (Nov 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> My husband has a degree in physics. He says he sometimes dreams about formulas etc. He tries to explain it to me but I tell him my brain is full!



I'm with you on that one but wow..if you ever want to learn you have an expert tutor right there.  :wink1:


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 16, 2015)

As Waylon Jennings sang it, "I may be crazy but it keeps me from going insane...."


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

We perceive reality, but it probably doesn't need us to exist. We will never know, will we? If we are not conscious then time - and pretty much our lives - cease to exist.

For _us_.

I spent many years studying metaphysics and I'm still as confused as ever. I like to take Underock's line - that we're all just freak accidents and should just enjoy the ride. This simplifies my life without needing to fall back on myths and legends, or alternately becoming a slave to science.

Einstein was a punk. layful:


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## Underock1 (Nov 16, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> We perceive reality, but it probably doesn't need us to exist. We will never know, will we? If we are not conscious then time - and pretty much our lives - cease to exist.
> 
> For _us_.
> 
> ...



"This simplifies my life.." Oh _doesn't _it though?! It's so freeing once you _accept _it. No more worrying about getting into Heaven or going to Hell. What is God's plan? Why are we here? What is the _meaning _of life? Why do bad things happen to good people? 
Because* that's just the way it is.* Everything in life makes sense as soon as you accept that there's no sense to it. :devil:

( You didn't have to make me a "freak" accident, though.)


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 16, 2015)

Omar figured that out a long time ago and settled for some wine and the enjoyment of a woman...


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> ( You didn't have to make me a "freak" accident, though.)



Sorry - personally I like to fly my freak flag high!


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Omar figured that out a long time ago and settled for some wine and the enjoyment of a woman...



He rocked for a scientist.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 16, 2015)

Karen99 said:


> I'm with you on that one but wow..if you ever want to learn you have an expert tutor right there.  :wink1:



Yes, and in the beginning of his career he was a physics teacher, and by all accounts, a really good one. He was shocked to learn that physics was not a required subject in US high schools.


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## hangover (Nov 16, 2015)

Wow! Looks like there is a lot of interest in the stuff that fills my head. I really don't know which to respond to. i finally got to sleep about 12:30 and woke up at 3:30 thinking about whether it's more dangerous to be stupid or smart. I'm uneducated so that puts me in the stupid category. But Trump for instance, thinks he has all the answers.

And science is supposed to be smart...they're the ones that came up with E=mc2...and that lead to building the nuclear bomb....smart? When they made the bomb, they really didn't know what would happen when they set it off...they thought it might ignite all the atoms on the planet...but what the hell, let's see what happens.

Nixon was going to nuke the moon...that's smart, huh.

Now they've built the "Super collider" that smashes particles together at nearly the speed of light, to try to find God. They said they found him...or her...or them....they call it the god particle.

But my question still hasn't been answered, concerning "laws" and "time". Without consciousness, there can't be either. Unless there were other conscious life forms before humans, laws and time could not have existed, because they only matter to a conscious mind.

E=mc2 is physics because it's matter...and time...which equals energy. Now science says the universe is mostly "dark matter" and "dark energy". It seems the more you know, the more you don't. Remember when the earth was flat, and the center of the universe?

Keep those opinions coming, they're great.


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## Underock1 (Nov 16, 2015)

hangover said:


> Wow! Looks like there is a lot of interest in the stuff that fills my head. I really don't know which to respond to. i finally got to sleep about 12:30 and woke up at 3:30 thinking about whether it's more dangerous to be stupid or smart. I'm uneducated so that puts me in the stupid category. But Trump for instance, thinks he has all the answers.
> 
> And science is supposed to be smart...they're the ones that came up with E=mc2...and that lead to building the nuclear bomb....smart? When they made the bomb, they really didn't know what would happen when they set it off...they thought it might ignite all the atoms on the planet...but what the hell, let's see what happens.
> 
> ...



You may not be formally educated. Neither am I. That does not mean you are stupid. I only see one point that seems to bother you, and I go back to that, and repeat my previous thought. Because we poor mortal beings are not conscious of something, does not mean it doesn't exist. Laws and time exist, whether or not humans do or not. Look at some of the Hubble telescope photos. Then the famous photo and "Pale Blue Dot" commentary of Sagan's and realize how incredibly insignificant 
human beings are to the universe. We couldn't even be classified as cosmic bacteria. That being said; I am quite content to be
returned to that grand, unknowable universe as star stuff.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

Look at the dinosaurs - they were subject to physical laws and time long before human consciousness existed. 

"And science is supposed to be smart ..." ... it _is_. It's the _application_ of it, by man, that is so often stupid.


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## hangover (Nov 16, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Look at the dinosaurs - they were subject to physical laws and time long before human consciousness existed.
> 
> "And science is supposed to be smart ..." ... it _is_. It's the _application_ of it, by man, that is so often stupid.



Not "physical laws"..."laws of physics"...I don't think the dinosaurs had any consciousness of them...or time.


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

Linda said:


> Well, you 3 sit up tonight and ponder all of this.  I'm afraid most of it is over my head.



And fortunate you are for that fact, good lady! Be not distressed by this nonsense.   imp


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

Karen99 said:


> I never took physics but as far as I know nobody has figured out where everything came from.  I pretty much see myself as this speck of sand ..if that...in the scheme of things.  Remember that song..Dust In The Wind?  I think what you're asking is the BIG question..where did everything come from and why.  Oh my...must be a billion answers.
> 
> I respect the science that brings us some of the answers.  When I walk down a beach on a starry night I'm just glad I'm here. I'm part of something big and always have been.  Everyone is.  I believe it's all woven into something that matters.  I do understand questioning the whys of everything...but I'd need a few more lifetimes and at least a physics course for me to try and sort out the tiny details.
> 
> It was fun sharing my thoughts. *Thanks for listening*.:2cents:



Such good, sensible thought put forth, is always well-worth listening to! Thank _you _for writing it!    imp


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> My husband has a degree in physics. He says he sometimes dreams about formulas etc. He tries to explain it to me but I tell him my brain is full!



Glad to learn a bit more about him. Was he perhaps your reason for living over there? No prying, mind you, curious, but none of my business (or anyone else's). I would like to ask him if he has considered the physics of the activity going on during the fermentation within those beer kegs!    imp


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

chic said:


> The opposite of order is not chaos, it's randomness. Is randomness chaotic? No. It's just less predictable. What is normal to the spider is chaos to the fly.
> 
> Consciousness is not necessary for the passage of time to occur, only one's awareness that time is passing. I agree with Underock1. It's the tree in the forest question again and of course the tree makes a sound because the laws of physics are not subject to the presence or absence of man. It would be pompous to think so.
> 
> Good thread though.



Chic, chaos, per se, is no longer the single-definition concept we once thought it was. Chaos theory is now successfully used to study and define, of all things, the movement of those individual muscle cells in the human heart, as I mentioned. The result? New understanding of Atrial Fibrillation, or uncontrolled fluttering of the heart muscle. Science finds a way.......imp


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Sorry - personally I like to fly my freak flag high!
> 
> View attachment 23994



As both a lunatic (deserving of special consideration), and deranged (entitled nowadays to free help), I COULD be offended by this.    

Thinkin' about it, anyway, ......imp


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## imp (Nov 16, 2015)

*Unprecedented Proof of my Deranged position*

Never was moved to answer so many posts fueled by only one beer, er.....coffee. The references to "time" got me whirling. We all know that a given event occurring at a given place, is a discrete thing happening during the passing of "time", like a guy filling his gas tank on the corner of Las Vegas Blvd. and Sahara Ave. 

Science is now real close to proving that under certain circumstances the exact same given event can be occurring _simultaneously _at two locations far apart from each other, even millions of light-years apart in time. 

It's called "Worm Hole Theory".   (Gulp).    :lost:


imp


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

imp said:


> As both a lunatic (deserving of special consideration), and deranged (entitled nowadays to free help), I COULD be offended by this.
> 
> Thinkin' about it, anyway, ......imp



And exactly HOW would you be offended? 

Lunatics are no longer placed in asylums, so no special consideration. Deranged? I had that for breakfast.

Sorry - my flag remains at full staff.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2015)

imp said:


> Chic, chaos, per se, is no longer the single-definition concept we once thought it was. Chaos theory is now successfully used to study and define, of all things, the movement of those individual muscle cells in the human heart, as I mentioned. The result? New understanding of Atrial Fibrillation, or uncontrolled fluttering of the heart muscle. Science finds a way.......imp



One of my favorite models is Brownian movements - like when you watch dust motes in a sunny windows. They dance!

But not totally chaotically - they have a rhythm, if only you can discern it.


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## Ameriscot (Nov 16, 2015)

imp said:


> Glad to learn a bit more about him. Was he perhaps your reason for living over there? No prying, mind you, curious, but none of my business (or anyone else's). I would like to ask him if he has considered the physics of the activity going on during the fermentation within those beer kegs!    imp



I don't mind sharing.  I met him online in 1999 and married him in 2000.  I had an interest in living in Ireland or UK and got very lucky to meet the right man.  

He says he doesn't think so much about the physics of the brewing but the biology of the yeast and the oxygen and the sugars, etc.


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## chic (Nov 17, 2015)

Einstein said time was the 4th dimension, so could conscious humans aware of the passage of time and the 4th dimesnsion reverse time through metaphysics?
Sadly Einstein, who believed the universe was losing order to randomness, died before he could expound on the dimension of time except to conclude that if a human travels at the speed of light, time stands still for that individual.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

I believe the current thinking is that people can travel _back_ in time but not _forward_ - the science escapes me but I'm pretty sure that's what I read.


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## Shalimar (Nov 17, 2015)

I love the dance--everything changes into something else.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

chic said:


> Einstein said time was the 4th dimension, so could conscious humans aware of the passage of time and the 4th dimesnsion reverse time through metaphysics?
> Sadly Einstein, who believed the universe was losing order to randomness, died before he could expound on the dimension of time except to conclude that if a human travels at the speed of light, time stands still for that individual.



I am not a fan of metaphysics or even philosophy for that matter. Way too much time spent trying to define the meanings of words. The brain is truly amazing and mental processes are still largely unknown but, Yuri Geller not withstanding, I do not see it capable of moving a physical body through thought. I don't think anyone's going anywhere.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I believe the current thinking is that people can travel _back_ in time but not _forward_ - the science escapes me but I'm pretty sure that's what I read.



I used to think that you could _look _back into the past if you could get to a point where the light given off from an event had not yet traveled. I think that idea may have been discredited now. Should check some of this stuff out, but getting lazy in my old age.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I am not a fan of metaphysics or even philosophy for that matter. Way too much time spent trying to define the meanings of words. The brain is truly amazing and mental processes are still largely unknown but, Yuri Geller not withstanding, *I do not see it capable of moving a physical body through thought.* I don't think anyone's going anywhere.



Perhaps not in the way you envision, but it HAS been scientifically proven that a person can regulate certain physiological functions - breathing, pulse, blood pressure, etc. - by mind alone. 

If you think metaphysics is hung up on words you should take a gander at a scientific paper or two - they're positively OCD compared to metaphysics.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

hangover said:


> Not "physical laws"..."laws of physics"...I don't think the dinosaurs had any consciousness of them...or time.



Physical laws ARE the laws of physics, are they not?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I used to think that you could _look _back into the past if you could get to a point where the light given off from an event had not yet traveled. I think that idea may have been discredited now. Should check some of this stuff out, but getting lazy in my old age.



Such as looking at stars?


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Star light, star bright, wonder what you are tonight...  (Or something like that.)


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Imagine looking through a telescope and seeing this:


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 17, 2015)

After a third martini I probably would...


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## hangover (Nov 17, 2015)

_Scientific proof of God

E=MC[SUP]2[/SUP]_

This most cited and powerful equation is also, ironically, one that  causes all of G_d's earthly creation to be seconds away from complete  annihilation at any moment in time, as it was the source of the secret  of the power of the atom and the development of the atomic bomb.

Here's the E=MC[SUP]2[/SUP] math and the Theology, all rolled up into one:

Step One:  Add all of the matter on Earth and contained in the rest of  G_d's creation, 100 billion galaxies, each with about 100 billion stars,  Step Two:  Multiply that amount of Matter by the speed of light, 
Step Three:  Square _that_ number ...

and then understand that _every_ gram of that incalculable amount of matter has the energy of a Hiroshima nuclear bomb. 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-greene/albert-einstein-and-the-s_b_800936.html


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm one step away from annihilation regardless. Don't need 100 billion galaxies. Just have to stub my toe and hit my head on the floor. Oh well.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Such as looking at stars?



Exactly. That was what put the idea in my head originally a _long _time ago.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 17, 2015)

So you so you had better let the good times roll while you can, just don't walk on uneven surfaces...


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Perhaps not in the way you envision, but it HAS been scientifically proven that a person can regulate certain physiological functions - breathing, pulse, blood pressure, etc. - by mind alone.
> 
> If you think metaphysics is hung up on words you should take a gander at a scientific paper or two - they're positively OCD compared to metaphysics.



The mind can do amazing things. The brain and body are inextricably connected, each affecting each other in many ways. No doubt about it. I know that there is much debate over what constitutes thought, consciousness, mind, etc. I see them all as being purely physical processes or the result of physical processes. I grant you that scientific papers are saturated with multi syllabic words, mostly in Latin or German making them inaccessible in many cases. They do have exact meanings related to measurable physical processes. Metaphysics and philosophy are dealing with much more nebulous subjects difficult to describe so the discussions tend to get bogged down in disagreeing over what a particular word means.
I expected a bigger blow back from you, Phil. I know metaphysics is or at some point has been a big thing to you.
Its not for me, but I must qualify that by saying I have only looked at it from the outside.


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## hangover (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I am not a fan of metaphysics or even philosophy for that matter. Way too much time spent trying to define the meanings of words. The brain is truly amazing and mental processes are still largely unknown but, Yuri Geller not withstanding, I do not see it capable of moving a physical body through thought. I don't think anyone's going anywhere.


Oh, everybody is gong somewhere...Even standing still, you're traveling at a mind boggling speed. The earth spins at 1,500 kilometers per hour...it goes around the sun at 100,000 kilometers per hour...and our solar system travels through the galaxy at 500,000,000 miles per hour. Is it any wonder everybody is so dizzy?

I like your comment on the brain...I think our thoughts travel at the speed of light....and once we are able to use the full potential of our brain, I think we may be able to line up all our atoms on a thought beam, and transport ourselves where ever we want to be in an instant. That may be the answer to time travel.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> So you so you had better let the good times roll while you can, just don't walk on uneven surfaces...



Every step is an adventure, but I do have wall to wall carpeting. I think the good times rolled under the bed some where and I can't get down there to find them.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

hangover said:


> Oh, everybody is gong somewhere...Even standing still, you're traveling at a mind boggling speed. The earth spins at 1,500 kilometers per hour...it goes around the sun at 100,000 kilometers per hour...and our solar system travels through the galaxy at 500,000,000 miles per hour. Is it any wonder everybody is so dizzy?
> 
> I like your comment on the brain...I think our thoughts travel at the speed of light....and once we are able to use the full potential of our brain, I think we may be able to line up all our atoms on a thought beam, and transport ourselves where ever we want to be in an instant. That may be the answer to time travel.


 
Nah. opcorn:


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## imp (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And exactly HOW would you be offended?
> 
> Lunatics are no longer placed in asylums, so no special consideration. Deranged? I had that for breakfast.
> 
> Sorry - my flag remains at full staff.



Come on! I "qualified" it with "COULD".......to indicate facetiousness!   imp


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## imp (Nov 17, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I don't mind sharing.  I met him online in 1999 and married him in 2000.  I had an interest in living in Ireland or UK and got very lucky to meet the right man.
> 
> He says he doesn't think so much about the physics of the brewing but the biology of the yeast and the oxygen and the sugars, etc.



Thank you for asking him! I had a book when I first considered trying brewing, which showed the reactions as the yeasties "ate" sugar: amazingly complicated with lots of steps. Actually, I suppose, Physics would not apply directly to a single process, like fermentation, unless the Math behind it was being considered. Gettin' to deep, here, for me, this early in  the morning!    imp


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## imp (Nov 17, 2015)

chic said:


> Einstein said time was the 4th dimension, so could conscious humans aware of the passage of time and the 4th dimesnsion reverse time through metaphysics?
> Sadly Einstein, who believed the universe was losing order to randomness, died before he could expound on the dimension of time except to conclude that if a human travels at the speed of light, time stands still for that individual.



Chic, don't leave out the fact that the quick individual would gain infinite weight, while becoming infinitely small. Now, the Physicists are talking about _exceeding _the speed of light! imp


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## Ameriscot (Nov 17, 2015)

imp said:


> Thank you for asking him! I had a book when I first considered trying brewing, which showed the reactions as the yeasties "ate" sugar: amazingly complicated with lots of steps. Actually, I suppose, Physics would not apply directly to a single process, like fermentation, unless the Math behind it was being considered. Gettin' to deep, here, for me, this early in  the morning!    imp



A book hubby bought:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Brew-Ev...86243&sr=8-1&keywords=john+palmer+how+to+brew


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## hossthehermit (Nov 17, 2015)

I recommend cannabis for sleeplessness .............. edibles in particular


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## imp (Nov 17, 2015)

"Annihilation". 50 or so years ago, an "Anti-electron" was proven to exist. As soon as it encountered a normal electron, POOF, cloud of energy, both masses disappeared! They named this process "Pair Annihilation"  Trouble was, there are so many plain old electrons everywhere, the lonely "Positron" as it's called, lasted for only millionths of a second, before encountering an electron and disappearing.

How far we've come: Today, "PET scans" are one of the most definitive (and expensive) medical diagnostic procedures. They have actually harnessed the Positron! *P*ositron *E*mission *T*omography.

Or something like that. Truly amazing advances in Science, while lots of folks still go about killing each other. Some things I don't understand at all.    

imp


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> The mind can do amazing things. The brain and body are inextricably connected, each affecting each other in many ways. No doubt about it. I know that there is much debate over what constitutes thought, consciousness, mind, etc. I see them all as being purely physical processes or the result of physical processes. I grant you that scientific papers are saturated with multi syllabic words, mostly in Latin or German making them inaccessible in many cases. They do have exact meanings related to measurable physical processes. Metaphysics and philosophy are dealing with much more nebulous subjects difficult to describe so the discussions tend to get bogged down in disagreeing over what a particular word means.



I guess it depends upon what "type" of person you are. For example, my son is a math wiz - when he gets into it with me my eyes start glazing over. But then I pull out my trump card - Bugs Bunny / Looney Toons trivia! 



> I expected a bigger blow back from you, Phil. I know metaphysics is or at some point has been a big thing to you.



I don't want to show off. ride:

No, seriously ... I'm trying to moderate my responses on this forum these days. I'm not always successful, but I try to avoid anything with even a hint of controversy or passion. It always gets me in trouble. 

I'm staying vanilla.



> Its not for me, but I must qualify that by saying I have only looked at it from the outside.



That's probably the best place to look at it - at least science has a definite end point.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

imp said:


> Come on! I "qualified" it with "COULD".......to indicate facetiousness!   imp



I am as serious as a midget in a nudist colony.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

hangover said:


> I like your comment on the brain...I think our thoughts travel at the speed of light....



Our innate reflexes travel faster.

Witness what happens when we stick our hand on a hot stove. That hands flies away before the brain even knows what's going on. 

That's coincidentally how I taught self-defense classes - if you wait for the brain to come up with a solution you're in trouble. You have to train those super-fast, automatic reflexes to do what you want.




> ... and once we are able to use the full potential of our brain, I think we may be able to line up all our atoms on a thought beam, and transport ourselves where ever we want to be in an instant. That may be the answer to time travel.



Whenever winter sets in here in PA I point all my atoms toward Tahiti. 

...

My butt still gets cold, though ...


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

"Some things I don't understand at all."  A sign of mental health despite some of your occasional wackiness. :smug1:


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> "Some things I don't understand at all."  A sign of mental health despite some of your occasional wackiness. :smug1:



Occasional?

OCCASIONAL?!?!

I'm working full-time here - you mean I'm only funny once in a while?

Maybe my wackiness is traveling at sub-light speeds ...


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Our innate reflexes travel faster.
> 
> Witness what happens when we stick our hand on a hot stove. That hands flies away before the brain even knows what's going on.
> 
> ...



Phil, I gotta' say I am enjoying your posts more and more. I should probably start a separate thread here. The brain has been one of my central interests from as far back as I can remember. Probably started in my teens. I feel fortunate to have lived to see many of my independent conclusions being verified by modern science. I had known of the recent experiments indicating that the brain makes decisions a few seconds before you are aware of it, but I saw a really impressive experiment on a documentary the other day.
I can't recall the title of the show. Its a new PBS by a Dr Eagleman? At any rate, they set out four stacks of cards with monetary rewards on them. Two of the decks paid off much better than the others. They had subjects turn over the cards one by one. It took the individuals about twenty minutes to decide which were the better decks. Brain monitoring showed that their brains had already made their decisions _ten minutes _earlier.


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## imp (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I am as serious as a midget in a nudist colony.



Well, .....I'm almost a midget......

Hey! Just occurred to me: is it acceptable nowadays to say "midget"?    imp


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Phil, I gotta' say I am enjoying your posts more and more.



Like chocolate and heroin, I'm addictive. 



> The brain has been one of my central interests from as far back as I can remember. Probably started in my teens. I feel fortunate to have lived to see many of my independent conclusions being verified by modern science. I had known of the recent experiments indicating that the brain makes decisions a few seconds before you are aware of it, but I saw a really impressive experiment on a documentary the other day.
> I can't recall the title of the show. Its a new PBS by a Dr Eagleman? At any rate, they set out four stacks of cards with monetary rewards on them. Two of the decks paid off much better than the others. They had subjects turn over the cards one by one. It took the individuals about twenty minutes to decide which were the better decks. Brain monitoring showed that their brains had already made their decisions _ten minutes _earlier.



I saw that show - excellent. I have to admit I didn't quite understand what they were going for with that experiment. To me the repetition aspect killed any idea of the brain being faster. In other words, it was learned behavior - different than actual brain speed.

I've always looked at it this way: Jack Benny is walking down the street when a mugger points a gun at him. "Your money or your life", he say. Benny takes a loooong pause while his brain is working.

"Well?" says the mugger.

"I'm thinking, I'm thinking" is Benny's reply.

Classic bit o' Benny. 

But seriously, folks ... the experiment on that documentary really didn't prove much to me. Gamblers regularly play hunches, but those too are learned behaviors, not instantaneous decisions. 

In other words, to me, at least, the experimental design was flawed. That, or I'm just too stupid to understand what they were going for.


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## Debby (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> *We perceive reality, but it probably doesn't need us to exist. *We will never know, will we? If we are not conscious then time - and pretty much our lives - cease to exist.
> 
> For _us_.
> 
> ...




I think there's an experiment that would say your statement is not correct Phil.  It's called the Double Slit Experiment and in a nutshell, here it is.

Everything is made up of particles.  As long as no one watches, the particles that make up atoms behave like waves and have no particular locations.  But the minute they are observed (by the eye or by a camera or some other measurement device) they behave like particles.  If everything is made up of particles, who is it that has observed the 'waves' to cause them to behave like particles.  Our reality which is made up of particles of energy must be perceived.....in order for it to exist.


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Yes. That Jack Benny bit was and is still funny. The point that I got out of the experiment was that the brain had it figured out and _had made_ the decision _ten minutes before the individual was aware of it_ and consciously made it. So who's in charge here?


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## Underock1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Debby said:


> I think there's an experiment that would say your statement is not correct Phil.  It's called the Double Slit Experiment and in a nutshell, here it is.
> 
> Everything is made up of particles.  As long as no one watches, the particles that make up atoms behave like waves and have no particular locations.  But the minute they are observed (by the eye or by a camera or some other measurement device) they behave like particles.  If everything is made up of particles, who is it that has observed the 'waves' to cause them to behave like particles.  Our reality which is made up of particles of energy must be perceived.....in order for it to exist.



Thank you for that, Debby. One of the best experimental explanations  I have seen. I have to confess its a bit over my head. My gut reaction is that simply observing matter can not affect it. There is no force involved in the process that I know of. I think its a flaw in human perception causing an apparent result. So here I am. Arguing with the world's greatest physicists and standing my ground. To do otherwise would make me crazy. I don't swallow the Schrodinger's cat thing either. So there!:wiggle:


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## chic (Nov 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Perhaps not in the way you envision, but it HAS been scientifically proven that a person can regulate certain physiological functions - breathing, pulse, blood pressure, etc. - by mind alone.
> 
> If you think metaphysics is hung up on words you should take a gander at a scientific paper or two - they're positively OCD compared to metaphysics.



Bingo. That's what meditation's all about. But that's not metaphysics really. Not from my perspective anyway.


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## Debby (Nov 18, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Thank you for that, Debby. One of the best experimental explanations  I have seen. I have to confess its a bit over my head. My gut reaction is that simply observing matter can not affect it. There is no force involved in the process that I know of. I think its a flaw in human perception causing an apparent result. So here I am. Arguing with the world's greatest physicists and standing my ground. To do otherwise would make me crazy. I don't swallow the Schrodinger's cat thing either. So there!:wiggle:





Well there are still people that think the world is only 6000 years old so all I can say is that you've every right to argue your opinion with anyone, including the scientists who study this stuff .


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## SifuPhil (Nov 18, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Yes. That Jack Benny bit was and is still funny. The point that I got out of the experiment was that the brain had it figured out and _had made_ the decision _ten minutes before the individual was aware of it_ and consciously made it. So who's in charge here?



That's the brain - I was referring to the body.

The brain has its own agenda, it seems - independent of the body.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 18, 2015)

Debby said:


> I think there's an experiment that would say your statement is not correct Phil.  It's called the Double Slit Experiment and in a nutshell, here it is.
> 
> Everything is made up of particles.  As long as no one watches, the particles that make up atoms behave like waves and have no particular locations.  But the minute they are observed (by the eye or by a camera or some other measurement device) they behave like particles.  If everything is made up of particles, who is it that has observed the 'waves' to cause them to behave like particles.  Our reality which is made up of particles of energy must be perceived.....in order for it to exist.



What you're referring to is called the Copenhagen Interpretation or, more commonly, Schroedinger's Cat or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It concerns itself with the effect of observation upon an action, but it is still a random quantum physics entity. Even physicists aren't sure whether the observer can be a human, a machine or an animal, and what exactly the effects of observation are.

In other words, it's a dice roll. It's Schroedinger's cat in the box with the deadly particle - you don't know whether he's alive or dead until you open the box (observing him).

Reality _may_ or _may not_ exist until we observe it. That's why I said it _probably_ doesn't need us to exist - I put my money on the _does not_ side.


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## Underock1 (Nov 18, 2015)

The BIG question. Why does Schroedinger hate cats?  :why:


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## SifuPhil (Nov 18, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> The BIG question. Why does Schroedinger hate cats?  :why:


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## imp (Nov 18, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Thank you for that, Debby. One of the best experimental explanations  I have seen. I have to confess its a bit over my head. My gut reaction is that simply observing matter can not affect it. There is no force involved in the process that I know of. I think its a flaw in human perception causing an apparent result. So here I am. Arguing with the world's greatest physicists and standing my ground. To do otherwise would make me crazy. I don't swallow the Schrodinger's cat thing either. So there!:wiggle:



Under, it's here:   *Heisenberg's uncertainty principle     imp*


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## joan321 (Nov 18, 2015)

*consienciousness*



hangover said:


> So here it is eleven pm, and this stuff is keeping me awake. I'll start with a quote from Einstein..."Once you realize that everything that exists, come from nothing, that is something, that is nothing....It's easy to wear stripes with plaid."
> 
> Is E=mc2 relative if there is no consciousness? Is there time without consciousness? How can there be laws of physics without consciousness? How can there be any laws of anything without a god to make those laws? How can there be any order without laws?
> 
> ...



I know just what you mean.  YOu have a very active mind and it is really hard to settle it down, like trying to control a wagonload of monkeys.  I just loved it when I read Einstein's theories because he turned all known theories upside down and where are you - nothing comes from nothing.  Actually he also said that we are all vibrating molecules of energy, even though objects seem solid, they are actually vibrating at different frequencies.  It make you wonder how we can all agree that a table is a table or that we are indeed what we ourselves are, except of course, for the term ashes to ashes and dust to dust.  From dust we come and to dust we return.  Confucius said "Too much thinking drives one mad", so try to settle down, not watch tv and do some deep breathing.  The best way to settle down at bedtime is to read - something boring, and I promise you, you will soon fall asleep.  Good luck, hope to hear from you again.  Bye


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## Underock1 (Nov 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> View attachment 24068



Very good. I like it.


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