# What went wrong?



## Ronni (Feb 11, 2021)

Our generation and current generation.


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## hollydolly (Feb 11, 2021)

Ronni said:


> Our generation can current generation.
> View attachment 149195


sometimes I wonder who stole all the 'men'


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## Ruth n Jersey (Feb 11, 2021)

Yes, such a difference in generations today, yet back in George Washington's day men wore little tight pants and frilly shirts.  What goes around comes around I guess. I don't have to like it though.


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## Irwin (Feb 11, 2021)

Why is James Dean straddling the front fender of his motorcycle? That's a bit weird, too!  

It seems like there was more respect for the working class back in the 50s. And bikers back then were nonconformists rebelling against societal norms. Today's nonconformists run tech companies.


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## JustBonee (Feb 11, 2021)

My take on it ....   the   people  of the   world seem to be slowly transitioning to  gender neutral.


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## IrisSenior (Feb 11, 2021)

Nothing went wrong - reducing pollution is always good - right?


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## IrisSenior (Feb 11, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Why is James Dean straddling the front fender of his motorcycle? That's a bit weird, too!
> 
> It seems like there was more respect for the working class back in the 50s. And bikers back then were nonconformists rebelling against societal norms. Today's nonconformists run tech companies.


Dean is trying to be cool?


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Pure sissification.

Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.

Fast-forward a few decades, somewhere along the way, wives/mothers/homemakers took on a whine and b*tc# about their husbands not doing enough. Seemed it was no longer good enough for the man to bring home the bacon and the wife to fry it up in a pan, thus change was born, literally.

Women wanted their husbands to "pull the load"... so many hours spent in the kitchen, so many hours a week taking care of the kids, so many hours a week cleaning the house.

Something had to give, and this is the give that we're witnessing and seeing today.

Personally (please read... personally, as in my opinion), all of the women's-lib/feminist movement/equality, that's being spun and woven today has done our world and society no favours.

Men should have been left alone to be men, and women should of got off their lazy a$$es and pulled the load on their end, without complaining and always needing their hands held.


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 11, 2021)

James Dean was in the movies, where image is everything. "Cool" guys don't do laundry.  Also, I believe Irwin was correct when he pointed out that Dean on his bike was considered a troubled, almost hoodlum  youth . He was not a hero type. All the electrical machines relieved women of the sheer drudgery of maintaining a home. And then women had to work outside of the home, because a two income family was necessary. It's a fun idea, but I don't think either of these men represent normal males.


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## StarSong (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...



The women's movement provided choices to females.  You want to be a stay at full-time stay at home mother and homemaker?  Go for it.  Nobody's stopping you.  

Women who make other choices likewise shouldn't be prevented or derided from doing so.  

p.s. Of course most men were thrilled with the old arrangement. They held all the power. Why wouldn't they love it?


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

StarSong said:


> The women's movement provided choices to females.  You want to be a stay at full-time stay at home mother and homemaker?  Go for it.  Nobody's stopping you.
> 
> Women who make other choices likewise shouldn't be prevented or derided from doing so.
> 
> p.s. Of course most men were thrilled with the old arrangement. *They held all the power. Why wouldn't they love it?*


Exactly, and looking back on it in retrospect, I think it made for better marriages and relationships.

And no, men didn't hold all the power, because my dad was a dictator, but he knew his place when he'd overstep his boundaries and ruffle moms feathers, and reality tells me our home wasn't the only home where such applied.

Courtesy of all the women's-lib BS, women today want to be able to walk around shirtless (like men), they want to smoke cigars (like men), ride motorcycles (like men), and whatever else they can do to act and look like men.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Bonnie said:


> My take on it ....   the   people  of the   world seem to be slowly transitioning to  gender neutral.


I couldn't have said it better if I wanted to!


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## win231 (Feb 11, 2021)

LOL.  Real men smoke & don't wear motorcycle helmets.    

And real men know how to drive, too.



James Deans Wrecked Porsche​


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## Sassycakes (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


  I agree with you 100%. I am married to a real man. I was a stay at home Mom and I loved it. When we needed more money my Husband would work a second job. I think about a neighbor I had. She wasn't content staying home and raising her kids. She said she wanted to get a job so that she could enjoy the company of other adults, relax and have lunch with friends. They didn't need the money but she got a job. Sad to say but her kids didn't grow up well. I often wondered if they would have grown up better if their Mom had put them first.


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## StarSong (Feb 11, 2021)

Why shouldn't women smoke cigars or ride motorcycles if they so desire.? Haven't seen any conversations about women (in the US, at least) wanting to go shirtless.  Perhaps that's a Canadian issue. 

I think marriages are stronger when partners have equal power throughout.  That's how my and my children's marriages are structured and we're managing just fine.  The women and the men pull equal weight.  

Marriage isn't the default answer for everyone. I know more than a few women who are much happier living solo. And plenty of men who feel the same.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Sassycakes said:


> I agree with you 100%. I am married to a real man. I was a stay at home Mom and I loved it. When we needed more money my Husband would work a second job. I think about a neighbor I had. She wasn't content staying home and raising her kids. She said she wanted to get a job so that she could enjoy the company of other adults, relax and have lunch with friends. They didn't need the money but she got a job. Sad to say but her kids didn't grow up well. I often wondered if they would have grown up better if their Mom had put them first.


I agree with you on all, Sas!

Well said!


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## JonDouglas (Feb 11, 2021)

What went wrong was an unholy mix of learned fear, risk aversion, entitlement and political, rather than action/results-oriented, behavior.


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## Packerjohn (Feb 11, 2021)

I wouldn't get into this "little chat" regarding men/women/past/present.  But I will say this.  I was married to a real lady for many years.  Should I ever want to date a lady again, I would like to date a lady; not a lady that looks & acts like a man.  By the way, I am for total equality.  I was very happy to help around the home when my wife was still living.  She loved to buy clothes, do her makeup & enjoyed her hobbies.  I never wanted her to act, dress, think or pretend to be some sort of tough Butch man.   At my age, I think that men should act like gentlemen & women should act like ladies.  Of course, the way things are today, I suppose I am rather old fashioned.  By the way, I don't smoke nor do I curse so I expect a lady to do likewise.  Am I asking too much?


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## Pepper (Feb 11, 2021)

James Dean was born 1931, I wouldn't call him our generation; maybe the Beat Generation.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> I wouldn't get into this "little chat" regarding men/women/past/present.  But I will say this.  I was married to a real lady for many years.  Should I ever want to date a lady again, I would like to date a lady; not a lady that looks & acts like a man.  By the way, I am for total equality.  I was very happy to help around the home when my wife was still living.  She loved to buy clothes, do her makeup & enjoyed her hobbies.  I never wanted her to act, dress, think or pretend to be some sort of tough Butch man.   At my age, I think that men should act like gentlemen & women should act like ladies.  Of course, the way things are today, I suppose I am rather old fashioned.  By the way, I don't smoke nor do I curse so I expect a lady to do likewise.  Am I asking too much?


I'm old-fashioned, too, Packer, and no, you are definitely not asking for too much.


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## Ruby Rose (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


Your very first paragraph...'back in the day etc...is where I beg to differ as not all marriages are like that. Take my late husband for instance, seeing that I was qualified in a certain field, his wish was that I continue work in and out of the house and simply arrange for a sitter. I dug my heels in, I am afraid, and stated that children needed their mother at home during their developmental stages and seeing it was not necessary for me to return to work...I said NO. As for household duties to include cleaning, cooking, etc etc, he did not believe that he should 'share the load' so to speak and I never asked him too.
Well, I had better stop writing on this topic as it has always riled me up.


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## Ruby Rose (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Exactly, and looking back on it in retrospect, I think it made for better marriages and relationships.
> 
> And no, men didn't hold all the power, because my dad was a dictator, but he knew his place when he'd overstep his boundaries and ruffle moms feathers, and reality tells me our home wasn't the only home where such applied.
> 
> Courtesy of all the women's-lib BS, women today want to be able to walk around shirtless (like men), they want to smoke cigars (like men), ride motorcycles (like men), and whatever else they can do to act and look like men.


there has to be equality in a marriage...otherwise, I don't see it working


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## Gaer (Feb 11, 2021)

"Boy the way Glenn Miller played
songs that made the Hit Parade
guys like me we had it made
Those were the days.
Everybody pulled his weight
Gee our old La Salle ran great
Those were the days.
And you knew who you were then
GIRLS WERE GIRLS AND MEN WERE MEN
Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.
People seemed to be content
fifty dollars paid the rent
F--s were in the circus tent
Those were the days
Take a little Sunday spin
Go to watch the Dodgers win
Have yourself a dandy day that cost you under a fin
Hair was short and skirts were long
Kate Smith really sold a song
I don't know just what went wrong
Those were the days."


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## Pepper (Feb 11, 2021)

No thanks for Herbert Hoover @Gaer!!


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


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## squatting dog (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Personally (please read... personally, as in my opinion), all of the women's-lib/feminist movement/equality, that's being spun and woven today has done our world and society no favours.
> 
> Men should have been left alone to be men, and women should of got off their lazy a$$es and pulled the load on their end, without complaining and always needing their hands held.



I'm one of the lucky ones. No matter what we do, we do it together. My wife would never think to have me get someone else to help me when she is perfectly able to.


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## squatting dog (Feb 11, 2021)




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## Pepper (Feb 11, 2021)

@Aunt Marg: 
"Personally (please read... personally, as in my opinion), all of the women's-lib/feminist movement/equality, that's being spun and woven today has done our world and society no favours.

Men should have been left alone to be men, and women should of got off their lazy a$$es and pulled the load on their end, without complaining and always needing their hands held."

* Reactions:**squatting dog, Packerjohn and hawkdon*

_I thought it was funny how happy your post made these three *men* feel._


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> Your very first paragraph...'back in the day etc...is where I beg to differ as not all marriages are like that. Take my late husband for instance, seeing that I was qualified in a certain field, his wish was that I continue work in and out of the house and simply arrange for a sitter. I dug my heels in, I am afraid, and stated that children needed their mother at home during their developmental stages and seeing it was not necessary for me to return to work...I said NO. As for household duties to include cleaning, cooking, etc etc, he did not believe that he should 'share the load' so to speak and I never asked him too.
> Well, I had better stop writing on this topic as it has always riled me up.


I would have supported your choice and decision to stay home and see to it that your children were raised properly and with love, 100%. I was the same. Too bad society has gotten away from that.

As for my sheer repugnance over families that have children only to look to some daycare and/or stranger to raise them, I best not even get started on that, because none of what I have to say related to is nice.

Been married for the better part of 40 years now, and not once did I ever expect hubby to arrive home from work and start washing dishes, preparing meals, washing floors, doing laundry, or changing diapers, that was my job. 

Hubby had his job, I had mine.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 11, 2021)

A "real man" is not somebody trying to look cool by wearing a leather jacket and having a cigarette hanging out of his mouth (do women REALLY want to kiss an ashtray????).  Instead, a "real man" is one who steps up to his responsibilities, walks the talk, and gets the job done.  People can depend on him to do the right thing.  He supports his wife in the things she wants to accomplish in her life, provides security to their home, and is dedicated to his home life instead of whining about how things should be (e.g. the so-called "rebel"), and does no have one eye out looking for that "piece on the side".  His wife can depend on him being there 5, 10, and many more years from now.  A real man doesn't bolt the minute there is a problem such as the wife having health issues.  He can be depended on.

A home that includes a "real man" shouldn't need women's lib because the wife is an equal partner and shouldn't need permission or having to throw a hissy fit to be free to do what she needs to find accomplishment and purpose.

It seems to me that Hollywood got it all wrong and those who buy into that image of the "tough guy rebel" being the real man ought to rethink their value systems.

Tony


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## Gaer (Feb 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> No thanks for Herbert Hoover @Gaer!!


Pepper, These are the lyrics to an old hit song.


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## Pepper (Feb 11, 2021)

I KNOW! @Gaer
All in the Family theme


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## Sassycakes (Feb 11, 2021)

Gaer said:


> "Boy the way Glenn Miller played
> songs that made the Hit Parade
> guys like me we had it made
> Those were the days.
> ...


That's one of the things I loved about "All in the Family" I can sing every word in that song, even though I wasn't around when Herbert Hoover was President!


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> there has to be equality in a marriage...otherwise, I don't see it working


After almost 40 years, dear husband and I are equal, lived in an equally divided house, where chores, jobs, and tasks were specific to our situation, and it made for the best balance I could ever have dreamed of.


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. I am a great believer in choice. Being a stay at home mother is as valuable career/vocation  as any other. But it should be a choice, and as a feminist person who believes in equal rights for all, I take exception to being castigated and de-feminized because I





Shalimar said:


> chose to work, and expected my partner and father of my son, to share the chores etc. I am an exceptionally feminine woman, by my own definition, which is the one that matters to me, equally comfortable in dresses and heels or jeans and sandals. If I chose to smoke a cigar, I would do so. Lol. Independence is not only a masculine trait, nor are household duties necessarily gender based. I don‘t want






Shalimar said:


> Gary Cooper as a romantic partner, emotionally unavailable men do not interest me. To me, a real man is an equal partner in all ways, masculinity is fluid, not a stereotype, and I have no wish to emulate June Cleaver.


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

apologies, I am having trouble with my computer today


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> A "real man" is not somebody trying to look cool by wearing a leather jacket and having a cigarette hanging out of his mouth (do women REALLY want to kiss an ashtray????).  Instead, a "real man" is one who steps up to his responsibilities, walks the talk, and gets the job done.  People can depend on him to do the right thing.  He supports his wife in the things she wants to accomplish in her life, provides security to their home, and is dedicated to his home life instead of whining about how things should be (e.g. the so-called "rebel"), and does no have one eye out looking for that "piece on the side".  His wife can depend on him being there 5, 10, and many more years from now.  A real man doesn't bolt the minute there is a problem such as the wife having health issues.  He can be depended on.
> 
> A home that includes a "real man" shouldn't need women's lib because the wife is an equal partner and shouldn't need permission or having to throw a hissy fit to be free to do what she needs to find accomplishment and purpose.
> 
> ...


  QFT


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

I must admit, though, the idea of being perceived as a “butch belly dancer” gives me the giggles. Should I dance in Dr. Denton’s?


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## Oris Borloff (Feb 11, 2021)

The part about women wanting to go around topless reminded me of a news story from the early '70's.  One of those human interest pieces they would end the local news with. 

 In southern California ( maybe L.A.?) there  was a bank robbery, the perp was a young woman wearing a see through blouse, but no mask. 
According to police, no one in the bank could give a description of her face.


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## win231 (Feb 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> No thanks for Herbert Hoover @Gaer!!


I never cared for Herbert Hoover.  He reminded me of a vacuum cleaner, & not just from his name.
He made lots of noise & spent half his life in the closet.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> A "real man" is not somebody trying to look cool by wearing a leather jacket and having a cigarette hanging out of his mouth (do women REALLY want to kiss an ashtray????).  Instead, a "real man" is one who steps up to his responsibilities, walks the talk, and gets the job done.  People can depend on him to do the right thing.  He supports his wife in the things she wants to accomplish in her life, provides security to their home, and is dedicated to his home life instead of whining about how things should be (e.g. the so-called "rebel"), and does no have one eye out looking for that "piece on the side".  His wife can depend on him being there 5, 10, and many more years from now.  A real man doesn't bolt the minute there is a problem such as the wife having health issues.  He can be depended on.
> 
> A home that includes a "real man" shouldn't need women's lib because the wife is an equal partner and shouldn't need permission or having to throw a hissy fit to be free to do what she needs to find accomplishment and purpose.
> 
> ...


Well said, Tony, and the same applies to a real woman.

A real woman doesn't spend her days gallivanting around town dressed and acting like a tramp with all hanging out for the world to see while her husband is at work, nor does a real woman park her lazy butt down on the couch first thing in the morning as soon as her eyes open, sitting watching Soaps and tapping the keys on her cellphone hour after hour, day by day, and a real woman takes pride in her appearance.

A real woman doesn't leave the house in shambles, dressed in sloppy looking sweat pants with her hair looking like a birds-nest, pushing a two year old baby in a stroller who still has raspberry jam from breakfast stuck to the front of his or her shirt and food stains around their mouth.

A real woman who embarks upon a marriage or a relationship, displays maturity, responsibility, and a sense of commitment, and she applies herself accordingly, stepping up to the plate to tackle all that relates to her order of business in the relationship, so if she's a stay-at-home housewife, she sees to it that all that needs doing on the home-front is done (and without belly-aching about it), and she's there for her husband through thick-and-thin, and when times get tough, she stands by her man (hello Dolly Parton).

A real woman is a master of her domain, meaning all that applies to being a homemaker, she has under control.

Hollywood definitely got the real woman wrong, in portraying a real woman as something of the Kardashians, where jet-setting around the world dressed in Gucci, is the norm, and where spending money is all in a day's work, and where no responsibility is tied to their lifestyle.


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## 911 (Feb 11, 2021)

My dad was a manly man. He didn't put up with any crap and he carried his own load. He had the best work ethic that I ever knew of any other man to have. Honest as the day is long, sincere and hard working. Dad was a blue collar worker and proud to be a member of the Steelworker's union. My best friend.


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

I am reminded of the challenges I faced when I first became a practicing psychologist. A decade of university, accompanied by a PhD, meant little when confronted with the standard prejudices of the day. I can’t recall how often I was told my career was “unsuitable for a woman.” Apparently, I lacked the strength and resilience, “manly qualities”

necessary to function in such an Uber stressful career. Of course, no vet would respect me, or want to share vulnerabilities with a woman. I was also too small, too pretty, too fragile, my figure was distracting, blah blah blah.

Some comments I refuse to post. Some of these comments came from women, but the more virulent ones came from the male professors and psychologists I encountered during those early years. Had I been less feminine, more in

line with their pseudo masculine bs about women in the sciences, their anger and unease would have been lessened. In their minds I would also leave my career and find a good husband to take care of me, once my frilly little self

shattered under the pressure of trying to make it in a man’s world. They were incapable of understanding the benefits of soft power, the holistic value of a feminine and nurturing approach to supporting those damaged by PTSD etc. It

was because I was soft, feminine, non threatening, non judgemental, that my clients were comfortable with me. They soon learned, however, there was steel beneath my softness, and not to push my limits. I was the only female

therapist I knew at that time. Even now, the women who do what I do are few and far between. I am grateful for the gradual change in people’s attitudes, and I pray for the day when capability not gender becomes the benchmark. Now some of the greatest champions of female therapists are men. I count my vets among that number.  In closing,

one of the male therapists I respect most, and a veteran of multiple deployments, uses many of the same   techniques in helping traumatised vets that I do. I have seen him consoling an enormous weeping man, holding him in his arms, and rocking him back and forth. Now that is a masculine man in all his glory.


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## StarSong (Feb 11, 2021)

Through pure happenstance I found my way to the apparel industry, which was then dominated by Jewish people.  

Such a lucky break for me, because their tradition is to respect bright, capable women in business, work with them, pay them well and promote them, and to presume that they can balance their home and business lives. Which I could and did. 

My husband changed plenty of diapers and he never minded a bit. After all, they were his children, too. 

The motto in our house was if you smell it, you own it!


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## Ruby Rose (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> After almost 40 years, dear husband and I are equal, lived in an equally divided house, where chores, jobs, and tasks were specific to our situation, and it made for the best balance I could ever have dreamed of.


You are one lucky woman!


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## peramangkelder (Feb 11, 2021)

I have noticed in our Media here in Australia women seem to be wanting to become more masculine
While men are told to 'get in touch with their feminine side'
With people wanting role reversals it has become apparent no-one knows who they are any more
Maybe a little to do with Gender Diversification but that is my opinion ONLY
As Robin Williams said in "Good Morning Vietnam"
'You're going to go straight to Hell for that one'


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## officerripley (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


I, and more than a few friends, experienced just the opposite back in the day (in our case growing up in the 50s and 60s): fathers who moaned about the fact that their wives wouldn't "get off her lazy a$$" & bring home a paycheck, or if she was working outside the home, why doesn't she earn more $$ to make it easier "to keep up with the Joneses" [remember that phrase?]. And in that case the dads expected the moms to still do all the housework and (as much as possible, i.e. not much) be a supermom raising those kids.

A "fond" memory: when I was about 8 or 9, I did happen to have 1 or 2 friends whose mothers didn't work outside the home and at 1 of my dad's & stepmother #2's cocktail parties, I was trotted out to say hello and 1 of my dad's male coworkers asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. Having recently heard this reply at 1 of the friends with the stay-at-home mom's house, I said "A housewife." (Or maybe I said "homemaker", can't remember which.) Anyhoo, I can see over the guy's shoulder my dad glaring daggers at me, the guy who asked me frowned & said, "Oh, c'mon now! Don't you want to be something better than that?!" And then, of course, after everybody went home I got a real dressing-down from dad ("Don't you ever, ever embarrass me like that again! What the hell's wrong with you?!")

So, you know, hard for me to get on board about how much better men were back then. The older I get, the more I agree with Carl Sandburg, "I tell you the past is a bucket of ashes."


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> You are one lucky woman!


I don't construe it as luck.

It was the exact same in my childhood home, and I remember it being the same in the homes of immediate and extended family, granted, I come from a European background, so possibly that played a big part in the difference in my childhood home and the homes of family, as compared to many homes today.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a man pitching-in when an extra set of hands is needed, that's what marriage is, the union of two, and the same goes for a woman pitching in to help her SO (significant other) out, however, a number of years ago I started seeing an imbalance taking hold, where some fulltime homemakers were doing little, and where the men in those homes were not only pulling their weight from day-to-day holding down fulltime jobs, they would then have to come home and pull double-duty, and that's just wrong and it's unacceptable.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I, and more than a few friends, experienced just the opposite back in the day (in our case growing up in the 50s and 60s): fathers who moaned about the fact that their wives wouldn't "get off her lazy a$$" & bring home a paycheck, or if she was working outside the home, why doesn't she earn more $$ to make it easier "*to keep up with the Joneses" [remember that phrase*?]. And in that case the dads expected the moms to still do all the housework and (as much as possible, i.e. not much) be a supermom raising those kids.
> 
> A "fond" memory: when I was about 8 or 9, I did happen to have 1 or 2 friends whose mothers didn't work outside the home and at 1 of my dad's & stepmother #2's cocktail parties, I was trotted out to say hello and 1 of my dad's male coworkers asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. Having recently heard this reply at 1 of the friends with the stay-at-home mom's house, I said "A housewife." (Or maybe I said "homemaker", can't remember which.) Anyhoo, I can see over the guy's shoulder my dad glaring daggers at me, the guy who asked me frowned & said, "Oh, c'mon now! Don't you want to be something better than that?!" And then, of course, after everybody went home I got a real dressing-down from dad ("Don't you ever, ever embarrass me like that again! What the hell's wrong with you?!")
> 
> So, you know, hard for me to get on board about how much better men were back then. The older I get, the more I agree with Carl Sandburg, "I tell you the past is a bucket of ashes."


I remember the phrase well, though it didn't apply in my childhood home, as mom and dad had a hard enough time just _keeping up_, never mind keeping up with anyone else.

I never would have guessed that such abhorrence existed in relation to homemakers.


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## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I remember the phrase well, though it didn't apply in my childhood home, as mom and dad had a hard enough time just _keeping up_, never mind keeping up with anyone else.
> 
> I never would have guessed that such abhorrence existed in relation to homemakers.


Sadly, I believe that such abhorrence truly existed in relation to women. Nothing they could have done would ever have been sufficient to men of that ilk, who viewed women as possessions not people.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Sadly, I believe that such abhorrence truly existed in relation to women. Nothing they could have done would ever have been sufficient to men of that ilk, who viewed women as possessions not people.


I'm glad to say such didn't exist in our family.

The men (back in the day) would have liked to believe they were in charge, but when momma cracked the wooden spoon, the men quickly tucked their tails between their legs and made themselves scarce.

In other words, the men knew exactly who was boss and in charge.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 11, 2021)

What went wrong?

Additives containing hormones in the food chain?


----------



## horseless carriage (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.


Sissification! Brilliant, I am going to steal that. 
I do like Gaer's comment: "GIRLS WERE GIRLS AND MEN WERE MEN."
Do we qualify?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Sissification! Brilliant, I am going to steal that.
> I do like Gaer's comment: "GIRLS WERE GIRLS AND MEN WERE MEN."
> Do we qualify?
> View attachment 149261


ROFLMAO!

I love your humour, Horseless!

Oh, you know how I feel about the way you carry yourself and dress, and you wife is equally as classy!

Boy, do you two ever make for a beautiful couple.


----------



## horseless carriage (Feb 11, 2021)

And you are cracking me up with Sissification.


----------



## Keesha (Feb 11, 2021)

win231 said:


> I never cared for Herbert Hoover.  He reminded me of a vacuum cleaner, & not just from his name.
> He made lots of noise & spent half his life in the closet.


ROFL!!! That’s pretty funny.


----------



## Devi (Feb 11, 2021)

I dunno. Why does one have to be "the boss" and the other not?


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 11, 2021)

Panzyitis attacks with sissification. Recall not too many years ago when the "new thing" was men's_ feminine _side!? It was all over the news and on every single talk show and we had to watch hosts ask "regular guys" if they had one and because it was the latest fashion thing they all said yes. I wanted to scream and often did. I am somewhat open minded but last time I checked I'm a man. I also love dogs but I am not one.


----------



## Keesha (Feb 11, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Why shouldn't women smoke cigars or ride motorcycles if they so desire.? Haven't seen any conversations about women (in the US, at least) wanting to go shirtless.  Perhaps that's a Canadian issue.
> 
> I think marriages are stronger when partners have equal power throughout.  That's how my and my children's marriages are structured and we're managing just fine.  The women and the men pull equal weight.
> 
> Marriage isn't the default answer for everyone. I know more than a few women who are much happier living solo. And plenty of men who feel the same.


I rode motorcycles and smoked joints and while we didn’t have children, my husband preferred me to stay home and look after our dogs. 
My man is amazing. Like 911 says about his father, my man’s work ethics are impeccable. In 27 years he hardly missed a day. He does anything for his family. I wish I could say I was just as good at being a housewife but I can’t. He truly IS my better half.  He’s a real man to me.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

The most masculine man I know is gay, married to a cardiac surgeon.  Former Special Forces. Multiple deployments to who knows where. I invite anyone to call him a “pansy.” Lmao. ps He wept at his own wedding. “Sissification?”


----------



## Dana (Feb 11, 2021)

well, some of these posts belong in the Museum of Humanity!
The question asked is "What went wrong?". Nothing, went wrong, people have evolved that's all and it's a great thing.

To be a "man" does not mean keeper of the keys. It means being in touch with and accepting your strengths and weaknesses. It's all right for a man to cry, to respect women and their needs, to have a vested interest in bringing up the children. 

By the same token, it is all right for a woman to be soft and feminine and also strong to make her own decisions, to be able to rely on her own resources, be equal to a man. In fact a marriage in my opinion where equality, respect and room for growth is not present - is no marriage.

No one has to be a boss man or boss lady - it's all about partnership and love


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Dana said:


> well, some of these posts belong in the Museum of Humanity!
> The question asked is "What went wrong?". Nothing, went wrong, people have evolved that's all and it's a great thing.
> 
> To be a "man" does not mean keeper of the keys. It means being in touch with and accepting your strengths and weaknesses. It's all right for a man to cry, to respect women and their needs, to have a vested interest in bringing up the children.
> ...


 Qft.


----------



## Keesha (Feb 11, 2021)

Dana said:


> well, some of these posts belong in the Museum of Humanity!
> The question asked is "What went wrong?". Nothing, went wrong, people have evolved that's all and it's a great thing.
> 
> To be a "man" does not mean keeper of the keys. It means being in touch with and accepting your strengths and weaknesses. It's all right for a man to cry, to respect women and their needs, to have a vested interest in bringing up the children.
> ...


That’s a GREAT post! Well articulated.


----------



## tbeltrans (Feb 11, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Sissification! Brilliant, I am going to steal that.
> I do like Gaer's comment: "GIRLS WERE GIRLS AND MEN WERE MEN."
> Do we qualify?
> View attachment 149261


Classy!

I have used the term "neutered male" to describe what I think "sissification" might refer to.  To me, these men are so wrapped up in political correctness that they forgot what it means to be a man.  If a man is as I described in my previous post, he should never need to walk around apologizing for his mere existence, trying so hard to not offend everybody.  The male who does that is "male", but no longer "man".

To me, it doesn't work well to have the courts decide how people should treat each other because then we have people trying to grab power by lording over another group of people, using these laws as baseball bats to beat these other groups up with.  Then, we have those now being beat up, getting the courts to install still more laws to protect them from those doing the beating.  It never ends, and after a while, everybody is so hog-tied with the laws that nobody can do anything without offending somebody and getting into legal trouble.  It seems to me we are there now.  

Common human decency and respect for one another ought to be sufficient and really is the easiest and simplest solution.  With this solution, we ALL become a part of the solution instead of constantly contributing to the problem.

Tony


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Neither should a woman feel the need to defend her femininity  for being strong, independent, and  not succumbing to other’s ideas of what constitutes a “real woman.”


----------



## officerripley (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I remember the phrase well, though it didn't apply in my childhood home, as mom and dad had a hard enough time just _keeping up_, never mind keeping up with anyone else.
> 
> I never would have guessed that such abhorrence existed in relation to homemakers.


Oh, it existed all right, all over. As someone said above, you were very lucky in your situation. And as you said above, maybe it was because of the European background in your family; that could well be. I've read a lot of history and it seems like the happy background situation you experienced has never been really prevalent in the U.S.; a lot of the letters, diaries & journals from the beginning of this country seem to feature a (maybe American) preoccupation with money, money, money.

So that kind of sit-com, 50s-early 60s, everybody being happy with mom staying home with the kids was a 20-some-year aberration. Up 'till about the time the Indus. Revol. was really taking a hold in the U.S., women of course didn't work outside the home but they were mostly farm women who reeeealy worked their butts off (still do the few who still exist) or else rich women. And what I and many others have experienced of what happened to women who because of money had to work outside the home (and therefore added everything they were doing before, all the housework, in addition to now working outside the home), I don't think very many women at all did it just because of women's lib. They may have said that to make themselves (or their husbands, gotta remember that male ego) feel better about the fact that he didn't make enough $$ for her to stay home. 

So the that time period of the happy, stay-at-home mom was such a small amount of time--ask any historian; they laugh their butts off at a measly 20-year time frame for anything--that I don't think it should ever be counted on as coming back again. I think that probably the worst thing you could do to a daughter is get her hopes up for that kind of life when she most likely would never get it; maybe sad (to some) but true.


----------



## Dana (Feb 11, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Neither should a woman feel the need to defend her femininity  for being strong, independent, and  not succumbing to other’s ideas of what constitutes a “real woman.”



Precisely... and feminists do wear pink and use


----------



## tbeltrans (Feb 11, 2021)

Tony


----------



## Gaer (Feb 11, 2021)

To all of you who are admonishing me for "Herbert Hoover".  I did not write this song.  This song, "Those were the Days" was written by Gene Raskin and first recorded in 1962 by the Limelighters.  Please notice the quote marks around the song.

When i was growing up in Montana, they used to say, "Montana is where men are men and women are damn glad of it!"
Yes, Men are now much more effiminate and it's sad.

I should add: IMO


----------



## tbeltrans (Feb 11, 2021)

Gaer said:


> To all of you who are admonishing me for "Herbert Hoover".  I did not write this song.  This song was written by Gene raskin and first recorded in 1962 by the Limelighters.  Please notice the quote marks around the song.
> 
> When i was growing up in Montana, they used to say, "Montana is where men are men and women are damn glad of it!"


In the Army, there was some catchy phrase for every state.  For Montana it was "the land where the women are scarce and the sheep are shy".

To be fair, I spent a fair amount of time in Montana when I got back from Vietnam and I liked it out there.  After the Army, when back to civilian life, Montana was known as "big sky country".  Back then, I think even the Montana license plates had that on them.  That WAS (and still is) an accurate depiction.  The sky was huge and full of stars at night.  Besides, I really didn't see many (or any) sheep while I was there.  But then I didn't spend much time in western Montana.

Tony


----------



## Ronni (Feb 11, 2021)




----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Dana said:


> Precisely... and feminists do wear pink and use


Yes, we do.


----------



## officerripley (Feb 11, 2021)

Ronni said:


> View attachment 149273


Betcha the guys on the scooter have lower cholesterol and stay in better contact with their mothers than the guys above did even when they were younger.


----------



## officerripley (Feb 11, 2021)

Dana said:


> Precisely... and feminists do wear pink and use


Would wearing red and using Chapstik count?


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Would wearing red and using Chapstik count?


Absolutely! Hahahaha


----------



## Aunt Marg (Feb 11, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Oh, it existed all right, all over. As someone said above, you were very lucky in your situation. And as you said above, maybe it was because of the European background in your family; that could well be. I've read a lot of history and it seems like the happy background situation you experienced has never been really prevalent in the U.S.; a lot of the letters, diaries & journals from the beginning of this country seem to feature a (maybe American) preoccupation with money, money, money.
> 
> So that kind of sit-com, 50s-early 60s, everybody being happy with mom staying home with the kids was a 20-some-year aberration. Up 'till about the time the Indus. Revol. was really taking a hold in the U.S., women of course didn't work outside the home but they were mostly farm women who reeeealy worked their butts off (still do the few who still exist) or else rich women. And what I and many others have experienced of what happened to women who because of money had to work outside the home (and therefore added everything they were doing before, all the housework, in addition to now working outside the home), I don't think very many women at all did it just because of women's lib. They may have said that to make themselves (or their husbands, gotta remember that male ego) feel better about the fact that he didn't make enough $$ for her to stay home.
> 
> So the that time period of the happy, stay-at-home mom was such a small amount of time--ask any historian; they laugh their butts off at a measly 20-year time frame for anything--that I don't think it should ever be counted on as coming back again. I think that probably the worst thing you could do to a daughter is get her hopes up for that kind of life when she most likely would never get it; maybe sad (to some) but true.


I've always been aware of certain differences between us here in Canada vs those in the USofA, and your post confirms one more I can add to my list.


----------



## win231 (Feb 11, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Sissification! Brilliant, I am going to steal that.
> I do like Gaer's comment: "GIRLS WERE GIRLS AND MEN WERE MEN."
> Do we qualify?
> View attachment 149261


I like the shoes.  Warren Beatty wore those on "Bonnie & Clyde."


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2021)

StarSong said:


> My husband changed plenty of diapers and he never minded a bit. After all, they were his children, too.


I have yet to change wunna those things with pins or tape or poop and tiny wiggly legs

....just worked
day and night

'Equal'?
Don't know or care what equal is, or was

My lady and I have yet to out work each other, but we keep tryin'

Share the load, in any way you can (just not the diaper load)

Guess I'm ol' fashioned that way


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 11, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


So are you suggesting a woman's place is in the home doing boring housework, cooking, etc. instead of being able to follow her passions either as a business owner or in a career? Many men who "brought home the bacon" felt they could behave in any manner they chose and their wives were supposed to take it. And the women did take it because they had no money except the allowance their husband's provided. So yes, they stayed in their (sometimes unhappy) marriages.

Over 1500 years ago, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advised men to help their wives around the house and be involved with the raising of their children although most of the men were the breadwinners back then therefore considered the heads of the households. We know that women work(ed) as hard in the home (especially if there are many children) as some men work(ed) on their jobs. Back then I'm sure it was much harder for women than it is now.  BTW...my husband and many men would agree with your comment I'm sure. But my husband soon found out...I'm *not the one* (to be tied down to "traditional" female roles like that).

As for the OP: That man is considered a "metro-******" I believe. The term actually has nothing to do with his sexuality but his style. Hell men back in the day not only wore frilly shirts, they wore these elaborate wigs with waves and curls.  LOL


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 11, 2021)

Love that word 'sissification', it should be added to the Scrabble dictionary.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> So are you suggesting a woman's place is in the home doing boring housework, cooking, etc. instead of being able to follow her passions either as a business owner or in a career? Many men who "brought home the bacon" felt they could behave in any manner they chose and their wives were supposed to take it. And the women did take it because they had no money except the allowance their husband's provided. So yes, they stayed in their (unhappy) marriages.
> 
> Over 1500 years ago, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advised men to help their wives around the house and be involved with the raising of their children although most of the men were the breadwinners back then and were considered the heads of the households. We know that women work(ed) as hard in the home (especially if there are many children) as some men work(ed) on their jobs. Back then I'm sure it was much harder for women than it is now.  BTW...my husband and many men would agree with your comment I'm sure. But my husband soon found out...I'm *not the one* (to be tied down to "traditional" female roles like that).
> 
> As for the OP: That man is considered a "metro-******" I believe. The term actually has nothing to do with his sexuality but his style. Hell men back in the day not only wore frilly shirts, they wore these elaborate wigs with waves and curls.  LOL


Indeed, and many of them fought duels while wearing tight breeches and shoes with sizeable heels.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 11, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Indeed, and many of them fought duels while wearing tight breeches and shoes with sizeable heels.


But I bet their shoes weren't like this Shalimar.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

A friend of mine, a skilled seamstress, once made me a British morning suit, complete with top hat. I felt very elegant, with my heels and my long hair in an intricate knot. Made quite a stir at the formal function my plus one and I attended. I felt deliciously feminine, and rather outre. Sigh, this ipad does not speak proper French. Misses the accents on most of the words. I love male cutaway tuxedo fashion.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> But I bet their shoes weren't like this Shalimar.
> View attachment 149342


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> But I bet their shoes weren't like this Shalimar.
> View attachment 149342





OneEyedDiva said:


> But I bet their shoes weren't like this Shalimar.
> View attachment 149342





Shalimar said:


> You are so right! Lol


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2021)

Having trouble with my iPad again.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Having trouble with my iPad again.


Sounds like its time to change pads

(Just had to say that.....I love being on ignore)


----------



## Rosemarie (Feb 12, 2021)

Bonnie said:


> My take on it ....   the   people  of the   world seem to be slowly transitioning to  gender neutral.


Correction.....men are becoming more like women....women haven't changed.


----------



## Rosemarie (Feb 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Pure sissification.
> 
> Back in the day, I never once heard of a single story related to a working man complaining about his wife being a stay-at-home mom/fulltime homemaker. Men were thrilled and quite satisfied with the arrangement.
> 
> ...


I think it all starts with the fact that men are raised by women. A woman attends to their every need, making sure they are fed, clothed and have all they need. When men grow up, they expect a woman to carry on where their mothers left off, but with free sex thrown in.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 12, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Why is James Dean straddling the front fender of his motorcycle? That's a bit weird, too!
> 
> It seems like there was more respect for the working class back in the 50s. And bikers back then were nonconformists rebelling against societal norms. Today's nonconformists run tech companies.


He was a movie actor. It is all make believe.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 12, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Sadly, I believe that such abhorrence truly existed in relation to women. Nothing they could have done would ever have been sufficient to men of that ilk, who viewed women as possessions not people.


Sadly such women were often discarded when the children were raised and they had grown dowdy without an income of their own to buy new dresses or fashionable shoes, and to visit the hairdresser. The husband, now more successful in his career, took a younger, more comely wife.

The wife who had expended her youth raising his children and tending his house was left with very little. Her options? To clean other people's houses and take in their laundry. No wonder the daughters of such women decided to get an education and some vocational qualifications.


----------



## horseless carriage (Feb 12, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I think it all starts with the fact that men are raised by women. A woman attends to their every need, making sure they are fed, clothed and have all they need. When men grow up, they expect a woman to carry on where their mothers left off, but with free sex thrown in.


Your free sex is debatable, although I do take your point. As for the rest of your post, that certainly is valid, it also made me understand why domesticity is no big deal. Being raised in a single family along with three siblings, following mother's early death, we quickly learned that if we wanted a clean and tidy home we had to do something about it. Father had to work, when he lost his wife his motivation went too, so after work the domestic chores must have seemed like a mountain. However, his four children learned how to take the washing to the launderette, in the days before we could afford a washing machine, that was my task. My sisters aired and ironed the clean laundry and younger brother was tasked with storing the freshly ironed sheets in the airing cupboard. He was so small he had to stand on a stool.
At weekends we all chipped in to vacuum, dust and polish our home. We all did that, week in and week out. It became second nature.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I think it all starts with the fact that men are raised by women. A woman attends to their every need, making sure they are fed, clothed and have all they need. When men grow up, they expect a woman to carry on where their mothers left off, but with free sex thrown in.


I think that's what went wrong for me
Mom and my brother were tight
Me? I identified with Dad

aaaand....I left home too early
I left then he did
Leaving my fat little brother with Mom

Still looking for that free sex
(sex is costly....they want yer soul)


----------



## JonDouglas (Feb 12, 2021)

Another thing that went wrong:  the drug culture.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 12, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> A friend of mine, a skilled seamstress, once made me a British morning suit, complete with top hat. I felt very elegant, with my heels and my long hair in an intricate knot. Made quite a stir at the formal function my plus one and I attended. I felt deliciously feminine, and rather outre. Sigh, this ipad does not speak proper French. Misses the accents on most of the words. I love male cutaway tuxedo fashion.


Do you have any pictures of that Shalimar?  Don't feel bad...my smart phone does fine with speech to text but it seems my tablet is not as smart as my phone. I hate using the text to speech on the tablet because it gets half the words wrong! Very annoying. Both devices are Samsung too.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Feb 12, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I think it all starts with the fact that men are raised by women. A woman attends to their every need, making sure they are fed, clothed and have all they need. When men grow up, they expect a woman to carry on where their mothers left off, but with free sex thrown in.


Boy, did you nail it dead on, Rosemarie!

I've met more than a few in my day, and we even have a few in the family.


----------



## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> I have yet to change wunna those things with pins or tape or poop and tiny wiggly legs
> 
> ....just worked
> day and night
> ...


Let’s hope when your time comes and your adult diapers need changing that whoever’s around won’t be too “old fashioned” to do it.


----------



## StarSong (Feb 12, 2021)

Dana said:


> well, some of these posts belong in the Museum of Humanity!
> The question asked is "What went wrong?". Nothing, went wrong, people have evolved that's all and it's a great thing.
> 
> To be a "man" does not mean keeper of the keys. It means being in touch with and accepting your strengths and weaknesses. It's all right for a man to cry, to respect women and their needs, to have a vested interest in bringing up the children.
> ...


Beautifully said.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Feb 12, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> *So are you suggesting a woman's place is in the home doing boring housework, cooking, etc. instead of being able to follow her passions either as a business owner or in a career?* Many men who "brought home the bacon" felt they could behave in any manner they chose and their wives were supposed to take it. And the women did take it because they had no money except the allowance their husband's provided. So yes, they stayed in their (sometimes unhappy) marriages.
> 
> Over 1500 years ago, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) advised men to help their wives around the house and be involved with the raising of their children although most of the men were the breadwinners back then therefore considered the heads of the households. We know that women work(ed) as hard in the home (especially if there are many children) as some men work(ed) on their jobs. Back then I'm sure it was much harder for women than it is now.  BTW...my husband and many men would agree with your comment I'm sure. But my husband soon found out...I'm *not the one* (to be tied down to "traditional" female roles like that).
> 
> As for the OP: That man is considered a "metro-******" I believe. The term actually has nothing to do with his sexuality but his style. Hell men back in the day not only wore frilly shirts, they wore these elaborate wigs with waves and curls.  LOL


My OP does not reflect such.


----------



## StarSong (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> So the that time period of the happy, stay-at-home mom was such a small amount of time--ask any historian; they laugh their butts off at a measly 20-year time frame for anything--that I don't think it should ever be counted on as coming back again. I think that probably the worst thing you could do to a daughter is get her hopes up for that kind of life when she most likely would never get it; maybe sad (to some) but true.


For economic reasons my mother remained trapped in a terrible marriage.  The irony was that she waitressed to put my father through college so he could earn a great living.  She didn't focus on a career or college education because they were "a team."  (Some team... my father was Don Draper personified.)  An all too familiar 20th century story.   

She ensured that all of her daughters took typing classes ("something to fall back on"), got ourselves educated and onto good career paths so we could support ourselves.  Most of us were fortunate enough to be able to stay home with our children during their very early years, but by the time they were in school we were more than ready to rejoin the working force.

My children were raised to want rewarding relationships and careers, and that their spouses (if they chose to marry) should be likewise fulfilled.  Happy to say they're all following that pathway.        

As for the offensive term, "sissification," I'll take a man with a soft, gentle, empathetic temperament over John Wayne any day of the week.


----------



## Jeni (Feb 12, 2021)

What went wrong.........
what did not........ people men and women expected to do it all ..... 

People say it is their choice but if a women wants to be a homemaker not  chasing some career...... she is often treated differently.   
I do not think it is one way OR the other ... 
IMO being happy with your choice and division of household or wage earning  items regardless of what media/ or others tell you .....is key.  

 It is what is portrayed on media or pushed by PC warriors etc...... funny thing is we have been lectured on the need for males to embrace their female side ..... 
then you read surveys or articles saying the women are not interested in dating those and are looking for more older version man's man.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Let’s hope when your time comes and your adult diapers need changing that whoever’s around won’t be too “old fashioned” to do it.


My hope is, I'll either be long gone, or my mind will


----------



## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> My hope is, I'll either be long gone, or my mind will


Yeah, that's most people's hope but the sad reality is (at least in this country that has no national health service which when it works efficiently, lets old people stay in their own homes longer than in the U.S.) that if you live long enough (especially if you don't have kids that can/will help), you're gonna wind up in a nursing home for at least a few days before you die. Sad but that's just reality.


----------



## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

StarSong said:


> For economic reasons my mother remained trapped in a terrible marriage.  The irony was that she waitressed to put my father through college so he could earn a great living.  She didn't focus on a career or college education because they were "a team."  (Some team... my father was Don Draper personified.)  An all too familiar 20th century story.
> 
> She ensured that all of her daughters took typing classes ("something to fall back on"), got ourselves educated and onto good career paths so we could support ourselves.  Most of us were fortunate enough to be able to stay home with our children during their very early years, but by the time they were in school we were more than ready to rejoin the working force.
> 
> ...


This!


----------



## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

Jeni said:


> What went wrong.........
> what did not........ people men and women expected to do it all .....
> 
> People say it is their choice but if a women wants to be a homemaker not  chasing some career...... she is often treated differently.
> ...


Then again, you have the other side--conservatives or non-PC-warriors--also pushing, such as Phyllis Schafly who back in the day railed against "women's lib" saying that women who wanted to work outside the home were hurting their families (the kids especially) by leaving their "poor children in the care of nannies." Welp. Read an article a year or so ago written by 1 of Schafly's nieces who said that she (or some other family member) said at the time something like, "But Auntie; you leave your kids with a nanny when you go on the lecture circuit." And Schafly frowned and said, "Oh, no, I don't! I just have my college gals who help me out from time-to-time; that's different." "From time-to-time": uh huh; I guess Schafley was on the road lecturing close to about 200 days outa the year. Whatever, Mrs. S.


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## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Yeah, that's most people's hope but the sad reality is (at least in this country that has no national health service which when it works efficiently, lets old people stay in their own homes longer than in the U.S.) that if you live long enough (especially if you don't have kids that can/will help), you're gonna wind up in a nursing home for at least a few days before you die. Sad but that's just reality.


Well, if I will still have a brain, I'll pick who gets to tend me


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## StarSong (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Phyllis Schafly who back in the day railed against "women's lib"


In my estimation, she was the ultimate hypocrite.  She took full advantage of the many trails blazed by women who came before her, including being able to go to law school and sit for the bar, a process started by several women in 1869.

Schlafly's own mother worked during the Depression to support the family (librarian and school teacher) because her father was unemployed. 

After using it to her advantage, she railed against feminism.  Talk about, "Whew!  I'm saved from drowning and have safely climbed aboard the rescue ship.  Quick, pull up the ladder so no one else can get on."  

Ugh...


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## Pepper (Feb 12, 2021)

Opportunist, that's another word to describe Phyllis Schafly


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## Shalimar (Feb 12, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Do you have any pictures of that Shalimar?  Don't feel bad...my smart phone does fine with speech to text but it seems my tablet is not as smart as my phone. I hate using the text to speech on the tablet because it gets half the words wrong! Very annoying. Both devices are Samsung too.


  Diva, I am sorry I don’t. I think my son has them. It is my new iPad that is behaving badly, I don’t have a smart phone. Mobile rates very high in Canuckistan.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 12, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Love that word 'sissification', it should be added to the Scrabble dictionary.


Never mind Scrabble, Mellow, should be added to today's modern dictionary. 

And while I'm at it, I would love to see FM's, word... "panzyitis" added to the same dictionary as well!


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## Jeni (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Then again, you have the other side--conservatives or non-PC-warriors--also pushing, such as Phyllis Schafly who back in the day railed against "women's lib" saying that women who wanted to work outside the home were hurting their families (the kids especially) by leaving their "poor children in the care of nannies." Welp. Read an article a year or so ago written by 1 of Schafly's nieces who said that she (or some other family member) said at the time something like, "But Auntie; you leave your kids with a nanny when you go on the lecture circuit." And Schafly frowned and said, "Oh, no, I don't! I just have my college gals who help me out from time-to-time; that's different." "From time-to-time": uh huh; I guess Schafley was on the road lecturing close to about 200 days outa the year. Whatever, Mrs. S.


I never said I agreed with either side if you want to frame it that way................. 
 I just see a disconnect on so many levels...
I worked most all the time but looking back I wish i had taken more time off etc......  no one has it all something is sacrificed ........ regardless if a person sees it at the moment or not.
 I think there are so many mixed messages out there for both sexes and frankly have seen both success and failure regardless what path was taken.


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## Shalimar (Feb 12, 2021)

I understand that people sometimes use words that many others find offensive as a form of humour, often not realising the demeaning effect such pejorative language can have on their intended targets. Human beings are sensitive, self esteem fragile enough without having their masculinity brought into question or being slammed with 

homophobic slurs. It isn’t funny when young people crumble under such, and the end result is suicide. Too many times I have comforted parents over the loss of their children. Words have power. Cruelty can hound vulnerable people to death.


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## Irwin (Feb 12, 2021)

Speaking of Phyllis Schlafly, a miniseries was made about her called Mrs. America. It was pretty highly rated, but the only place I could find it was on Amazon, and you have to pay for it, even with Prime. 

Has anybody seen it?


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## mellowyellow (Feb 12, 2021)

These girls are doing just fine 



Wendy Rexon left and her daughter Kelly Rexon piloted a Delta 757


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## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Well, if I will still have a brain, I'll pick who gets to tend me
> 
> View attachment 149409


Not if you're on Medic-Aid, you won't. Even if you're rich enough to afford one of those high-faluting, cash-only kind of places--they start at about $6,000/month around here--you still won't have much choice unless you got a family member who shows up at the place all the time trying to make sure they take halfway-good care of you. Just the facts (my nephew & niece-in-law work in elder care, that & the fact that I went through it with 5 elder parents is where I get my knowledge of this from.)


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## officerripley (Feb 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Never mind Scrabble, Mellow, should be added to today's modern dictionary.
> 
> And while I'm at it, I would love to see FM's, word... "panzyitis" added to the same dictionary as well!


Yowzer, talk about the "Devil's Dictionary"!


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## Dana (Feb 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Never mind Scrabble, Mellow, should be added to today's modern dictionary.
> 
> And while I'm at it, I would love to see FM's, word... "panzyitis" added to the same dictionary as well!


**********
_*No* ... the derogatory words "sissification" and "panzyitis" should not be added anywhere or used to describe anyone. They are disgusting words and are only meant to hurt homosexuals.

What right has anyone to  stand in judgement over any human being who does not fit their so called "norms." Shameful !!!! 

I believe people who use these words should examine their own sexuality before casting a stone 

**********_


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## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Not if you're on Medic-Aid, you won't. Even if you're rich enough to afford one of those high-faluting, cash-only kind of places--they start at about $6,000/month around here--you still won't have much choice unless you got a family member who shows up at the place all the time trying to make sure they take halfway-good care of you. Just the facts (my nephew & niece-in-law work in elder care, that & the fact that I went through it with 5 elder parents is where I get my knowledge of this from.)


Yeah, my wife did assisted care for about ten years
So did a half dozen relatives
I do know the abuse and neglect first hand
Latest was the treatment of my schizophrenic son

I generally keep things light
I can get heavy.....but there's plenty of heavy without my contribution
So.....I keep it light

Get's down to it, and I gotta be put in a home, I'll tap my little brother
He owns a couple high end adult care places
Several local celebs reside there

But, as I said, I tend to keep things light
So, you go ahead and pound away 
It'll even out

(Note to self;* SHEESH!*)


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 12, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, my wife did assisted care for about ten years
> So did a half dozen relatives
> I do know the abuse and neglect first hand
> Latest was the treatment of my schizophrenic son
> ...


Hey, Gary, any room on the "SHEESH box" for me?


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## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Hey, Gary, any room on the "SHEESH box" for me?


Plenty of room at the moment, but it may get crowded 
(some lifeless folks just gotta get some personal pointy point across....not sure why the burden)


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 12, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Plenty of room at the moment, but it may get crowded
> (some lifeless folks just gotta get some personal pointy point across....not sure why the *burden*)


Like those masses of burrs one occasionally walks into while out and about in the wilderness, _nasty little buggers they are... _and a real pain to remove, too, depending on where one get's one, and no sooner you remove the one, you got another.


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## Gary O' (Feb 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Like those masses of burrs one occasionally walks into


Yup
Been awhile for me here on SF
But, guess they're there

Why some folks can't let something go is a mystery
Gotta be miserable 
The again, some get off on stuff like that


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## Dana (Feb 12, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> I understand that people sometimes use words that many others find offensive as a form of humour, often not realising the demeaning effect such pejorative language can have on their intended targets. Human beings are sensitive, self esteem fragile enough without having their masculinity brought into question or being slammed with
> 
> homophobic slurs. It isn’t funny when young people crumble under such, and the end result is suicide. Too many times I have comforted parents over the loss of their children. Words have power. Cruelty can hound vulnerable people to death.


****
_Well said Shalimar ... in my profession I have seen people suicide because the mindless morons among us will not let them live. If a person is happy and comfortable in their own skin, they have no need to point the finger._


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## Shalimar (Feb 12, 2021)

Dana said:


> ****
> _Well said Shalimar ... in my profession I have seen people suicide because the mindless morons among us will not let them live. If a person is happy and comfortable in their own skin, they have no need to point the finger._


it is something we in the helping professions never become accustomed to. All those young lives destroyed needlessly, families left to grieve forever.


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 19, 2021)

I have noticed how romantic and inviting the past is in comparison to today. The pic of James Dean, in a leather jacket ( which only hoodlums wore in the 50-60s, same with those 'jeans'- (only degenerates and "JD's" wore those.) Then there's pic of some fop on a scooter. And ""what went wrong?"   There was nothing that went wrong. The Dean pic was an aberration of society of that era. Very few were walking around dressed like that, and on a motorcycle. It's like taking a pic of astronauts on the moon as  normal, and portraying it as the average American. Same a with the pic of the fop. It's just two pics, and someone's version of events. I don't believe there is any real change in our selves. This is just internet hype.


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## Lewkat (Feb 19, 2021)

I have learned early on, never judge a book by its cover.


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## Hapiguy (Feb 20, 2021)




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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 20, 2021)

I don't believe there's anything wrong with younger people. To them , the year is 2021, not 1952. It's the old fogeys, who go, "Tsk. Tsk, Well, In my day.." I don't believe the children of the 1940s, 50s  & 60s were somehow genetically superior to kids today. Old Greeks thousands of years ago 'bitched'  'about the younger generation. One thing we know for sure,  someday, today's kids are going to be complaining about the newest generation.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 20, 2021)

You know you are getting old when the phrase "kids these days..." begins to show up in your vocabulary.   

Tony


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