# What am I spiritually??



## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

I have changed my mind a few times over the years but the last few years I have pretty much settled as somewhere between agnostic and atheist.  I am not even remotely interested in any organized religion.  I don't mind that others have religions but I do wish they didn't have to be so damn mean with it in many cases.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 16, 2015)

I'm firmly in the agnostic camp..   I don't know if there is a GOD... and I don't know if there isn't one.  Perhaps I lean a bit more toward being an atheist,  but I have had my children baptized..   I do pray when things get really horrific... and I say the Lords Prayer every time I take off in an airplane... JUST IN CASE.   

I do however believe in KARMA...  not sure what that makes me spiritually... but I've seen "what goes around, comes around" too many times to discount it.   Even been on the receiving end a few times..


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## Debby (Aug 16, 2015)

After reading a definition of paganism from Paganism International, I'd have to say I'm more in that category (although I used to think that Buddhism sounded about right for me). 

Now though, paganism seems closer to my philosophy and mostly because I think that at a level far beyond this material reality, I think that we and everything in this world, are connected, as in 'all one'.  In fact, I think we are all small segments or 'individuations' of whatever great, organizing energy that is the source of this amazing universe.  That being said, I did start out as a sort of Mennonite, then chose to be Baptist and then moved on to the SDA church for quite a number of years.  So it's not like I'm 'making up my mind' in a vacuum is it?


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I have changed my mind a few times over the years but the last few years I have pretty much settled as somewhere between agnostic and atheist.  I am not even remotely interested in any organized religion.  I don't mind that others have religions but I do wish they didn't have to be so damn mean with it in many cases.



I don't know what you are, but I'm guessing you aren't a seeker.


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## Bullie76 (Aug 16, 2015)

I have my religious beliefs, but can't say I go to church regularly. I had a guy ask me just the other day if I had a church I attended. This guy is an older gentlemen and he has become very religious late in life. And that is fine, but he was a 'player' in his younger days and it just seems a little strange coming from him. I don't know.......I guess I'm just generally uncomfortable with those questions.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> What Am I Spiritually?



Evidently confused.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

I also believe in Karma, and to some extent adopt the First People's proverb, "a religious person is afraid of Hell, a spiritual person has been there." I in no way mean by this that I frown on religion, just that this seeker does not thrive in organized religion. Too many rules, not enough love.


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## Lon (Aug 16, 2015)

Jim----This might be just right for you.           American Humanist Association


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Lon, I don't need a self adoration society.


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## ndynt (Aug 16, 2015)

I lean towards deism.  Studied and tried just about every religion. Though some ritualistic Catholic roots are still there...have never found a religion that fit. Although, I do believe in a supreme being and pray.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

ndynt said:


> I lean towards deism.  Studied and tried just about every religion. Though some ritualistic Catholic roots are still there...have never found a religion that fit. Although, I do believe in a supreme being and pray.



I spent a couple of years in Catholic school.  I never could buy into it.  Many things about it bother me (assuming I was a believer to begin with).  I don't like the idea of "original sin" (I had a baby cousin die he wasn't baptized and could not be buried in the family plot in a Catholic cemetery), Confession, The idea that the Vatican is one of the wealthiest places yet it goes to the poorest of poor asking them to contribute the little they have to their coffers.  Several other issues.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Evidently confused.


  Maybe a little but clearly Agnostic leaning toward Atheist.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

Many here are kicking around the phrase "I believe in Karma". The question of the thread concerns spirituality, but "Karma" is not necessarily spiritual unless you believe in reincarnation as in #1 of the three definitions of Karma and apply it to Buddhism etc. #2 is not related to reincarnation but is related to eternal life in biblical scripture. #3 is not spiritual (and thus is off-topic to the OP question).



(Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism) *The sum total *of a person's actions, which determine the person's next incarnation in samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth.
A force orlaw of nature which causes one to* reap what one sows*; destiny; fate.
(uncommon) A distinctive feeling, aura, or atmosphere.

So, to answer the question of the OP, What am I spiritually, you must leave karma out unless you're a believer of Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.


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## Lon (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Lon, I don't need a self adoration society.



Now you are being nasty. That's not very Christian/Agnostic/Atheist/ Humanistic/Pagan/ etc. Repent you!!


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

I don't recall saying anything about Karma Lara.  However, if you look at the results of what is usually referred to as "Karma", I do believe "what goes around, comes around".


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Lon said:


> Now you are being nasty. That's not very Christian/Agnostic/Atheist/ Humanistic/Pagan/ etc. Repent you!!



Actually, I am merely being honest.


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## Lon (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Actually, I am merely being honest.



I am sure you will be pleased, but we're done Jimbo.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 16, 2015)

I have to think of myself as an agnostic.  I was raised Catholic and spent 8 yrs. in Catholic school, almost every day of the week in church for one reason or another.  When I became an adult, I had no need or desire to be involved with any organized religions.  I was born with a good heart, and raised by my parents to respect and be kind to other people and animals.  I believe in karma to a great degree, but sometimes see that with evil people who kill and torture, that they don't always get what's coming to them, in other words, what goes around doesn't always come around in those instances.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

Lara said:


> Many here are kicking around the phrase "I believe in Karma". The question of the thread concerns spirituality, but "Karma" is not necessarily spiritual unless you believe in reincarnation as in #1 of the three definitions of Karma and apply it to Buddhism etc. Number #2 is not related to reincarnation but does refer to biblical scripture. #3 is not spiritual (and thus is off-topic to the OP question).
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				AZJim said:
			
		

> don't recall saying anything about Karma Lara. However, if you look at the results of what is usually referred to as "Karma", I do believe "what goes around, comes around".​


*
Jim*, I didn't point any finger at you nor anyone else. I specifically said "many here"

.​


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## Meanderer (Aug 16, 2015)

I believe that we are an eternal spirit, that lives in a mortal body.  Where we spend eternity depends on our relationship with God.  The Bible says that what we sow, so shall we reap.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

Meanderer said:


> I believe that we are an eternal spirit, that lives in a mortal body.  Where we spend eternity depends on our relationship with God.  The Bible says that what we sow, so shall we reap.


Well said, meanderer.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Meanderer said:


> I believe that we are an eternal spirit, that lives in a mortal body.  Where we spend eternity depends on our relationship with God.  The Bible says that what we sow, so shall we reap.


  The problem I have with all thing Biblical is you must believe it all on none.  According to it, we would do some evil things to others.  According to the bible, as punishment god commanded death to babies and all manner of brutal acts.  Google gives the passages that show the brutal portions of the bible.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 16, 2015)

I feel the belief in Karma is VERY spiritual..  or even humanistic.   IF you believe your actions will affect you in the future or how you treat people will come back to bite you... that's pretty spiritual in my book... or maybe I just don't think of spirituality the same way others do.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The problem I have with all thing Biblical is you must believe it all on none.  According to it, we would do some evil things to others.  According to the bible, as punishment god commanded death to babies and all manner of brutal acts.  Google gives the passages that show the brutal portions of the bible.



That's true.. and those that don't buy into all of it are accused of being a "salad bar" Christian.. picking and choosing what you like and don't like..


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## RadishRose (Aug 16, 2015)

My father advised me when I was pretty young:

"Never discuss religion or politics unless it's with family or very close friends, and even then- be very careful not to hurt anyone's feelings; you must be tolerant."

I can see how right he was!


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Yes, it does take thick skin to discuss either one.  Obviously your father didn't know my family, we would fight almost to the death on the issue of politics.


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> you must believe it all or none.



Well that would depend on what you think the scriptures are - they are _writings_ (Latin: scripto - I write) that are found in a collection of _books_ (Greek: biblos - a scroll, book) that we know as the Old and New Testaments.

Given that the books were written separately and often contain discrepancies and contradictions it is impossible to "believe" it all but that does not mean that there is no value in studying the texts in context to understand what the writer is trying to convey.

Shakespeare's plays contain many anachronisms but that does not diminish their value as great art. All or nothing is a very simplistic approach to anything , especially something as complex as bible study.


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## Meanderer (Aug 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I feel the belief in Karma is VERY spiritual..  or even humanistic.   IF you believe your actions will affect you in the future or how you treat people will come back to bite you... that's pretty spiritual in my book... or maybe I just don't think of spirituality the same way others do.


I think the verse about reaping what you sow is saying the same thing.


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## RadishRose (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Yes, it does take thick skin to discuss either one.  Obviously your father didn't know my family, we would fight almost to the death on the issue of politics.




WHY should it take "a thick skin"?


Of course my father couldn't possibly have known your family but its obvious he knew others like you described, which is why he gave me that advice in the first place! There is no need to " fight almost to the death".

Peace, Jim.... No further comment here from me.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> …[The Bible] often contains discrepancies and contradictions...


Can you back up your claim with one example?


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

Walking on eggs topic. Baptized Methodist. Confirmed Congregationalist. Churched on again, off again until 14. Very active then. Choir, Church newspaper, Senior deacon.Moved to suburbs at about 35. Dropped church in favor of family time.
Complete non-believer now. Never was what I would call "spiritual", even during my most religious period. Humanism, and Buddhism light, have some appeal. Respect to other's beliefs. My own current ones; Nothing is "supernatural", _everything_ is connected. We are all "star stuff". Being "One with the Universe" is good enough for me.
Looking forward to a long nap.fftobed:


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have to think of myself as an agnostic.  I was raised Catholic and spent 8 yrs. in Catholic school, almost every day of the week in church for one reason or another.  When I became an adult, I had no need or desire to be involved with any organized religions.  I was born with a good heart, and raised by my parents to respect and be kind to other people and animals.  I believe in karma to a great degree, but sometimes see that with evil people who kill and torture, that they don't always get what's coming to them, in other words, what goes around doesn't always come around in those instances.



Absolutely. Hitler had everything his own way for over four years, and popped a pill at the end. The Universe does not care in the least.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Lara, I can.  "Love your enemies" from Matthews 5:44 and "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand  for a hand, a foot for a foot"  from Exodus 21:24...That sound like love?


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

We all have our beliefs.  I respect yours.  I only expect the same.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Lara, I can.  "Love your enemies" from Matthews 5:44 and "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand  for a hand, a foot for a foot"  from Exodus 21:24...That sound like love?


That is not a contradiction but thank you for trying to post a contradiction, Jim. Exodus 21:24 was a figurative command in the old testament…not literal. it means that secular justice is suppose to be equal…not too harsh, not too lenient. There is no maiming going on in this passage. 

If you look, in context, in Exodus 18: 13-26, just before God said this you will find that He had just established a judicial system to hear claims and to determine penalties. If "eye for an eye" was meant to be literal then there wouldn't have been any reason for that system to be set up by God in Ex 18. Besides, typically, payment in goods was usually the penalty in the OT.

Feel free to post another contradiction, Jim and Dame Warrigal


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

Off the top of my head, Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis. 

Read each one carefully and draw a time line of the creation.

Some people, who have a literal approach to scripture try to reconcile the two accounts and end up tying themselves in knots. It isn't necessary to do this. Each story has its own message.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Re Karma. Many of us attach different meanings to this concept. For me it implies learning, ie life is school. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. Hopefully we learn to be kind and loving people. As my son says, these are the things I teach myself until I get it right. For some, this learning curve is specific to a particular religion/religions, for others, myself included, it is the highest spiritual/evolutionary path. That is my take on reincarnation/karma/learning curve.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Off the top of my head, Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis.
> 
> Read each one carefully and draw a time line of the creation.


Thank you for trying to post an example of a contradiction but I have to ask, you want me to do all the work to find out for you what you may or may not find to be a discrepancy or contradiction?  I say all this with a tone of humble helpfulness but not wanting to make guesses as to what your questions might be. I can assure you that I won't find any contradictions.

I have an idea, how about if you "read Chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Genesis carefully", and you _"_draw a timeline", and then let me know if you _"_find any discrepancies or contradictions", and then I'll give you my opinion.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

I believe that reaping what you sow has a different connotation depending on whether one espouses fundamentalist Christianity with it's Hellfire forever concept, or Karma which, although similar, speaks to a gradual deepening and progression in a soul's journey toward a higher consciousness. Not punishment, learning. Everybody gets there, just at their own pace. I know what works for me, but respect other's beliefs also.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

I am out. Lara, I can go into a deep search and find other contradictions I am sure but I take what the bible says literally.  If we are going to dismiss the finding with our "interpretations" then any argument can be rendered moot without documentation.  I am not going to bother that being the case.  I respect your opinion.  Peace.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Re Jim being labeled as spiritually confused, and not a seeker? I thought denying absolutism, paint by number beliefs, in favour of the painful inner  struggle to find a set of beliefs/principals that resonated with one's sense of personal ethics truly defined the essence of a seeker with or without a label. It certainly is spiritual enough for me.


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## Meanderer (Aug 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I believe that reaping what you sow has a different connotation depending on whether one espouses fundamentalist Christianity with it's Hellfire forever concept, or Karma which, although similar, speaks to a gradual deepening and progression in a soul's journey toward a higher consciousness. Not punishment, learning. Everybody gets there, just at their own pace. I know what works for me, but respect other's beliefs also.


I was referring to the "what goes around, comes around" remark.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Thank you Meanderer, if I misunderstood, I apologise.


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## Lara (Aug 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I am out. Lara, I can go into a deep search and find other contradictions I am sure but I take what the bible says literally.  If we are going to dismiss the finding with our "interpretations" then any argument can be rendered moot without documentation.  I am not going to bother that being the case.  I respect your opinion.  Peace.


I did not "dismiss the finding with interpretation and without documentation". My documentation was a previous chapter (Exodus 18:13-26) that put your alleged contradiction of Exodus21:24 in context. It's all about context Jim. You may review my post #35 to see that if you wish. No problem if you don't want to "go into a deep search to find other contradictions". I understand. Peace to you as well, my friend.

But really, there are no contradictions, no flaws, in the Bible. I can prove it if anyone else wants to post an alleged contradiction.


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## Meanderer (Aug 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Thank you Meanderer, if I misunderstood, I apologise.


Not necessary, Shali, I respect your beliefs and appreciate your sharing them.


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Re Jim being labeled as spiritually confused, and not a seeker? I thought denying absolutism, paint by number beliefs, in favour of the painful inner  struggle to find a set of beliefs/principals that resonated with one's sense of personal ethics truly defined the essence of a seeker with or without a label. It certainly is spiritual enough for me.



I have never thought of Jim as confused about anything. I think Jim knows exactly who Jim is. Can not be said about everybody. Bible interpretation discussions never end well.


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

Lara said:


> Thank you for trying to post an example of a contradiction but I have to ask, you want me to do all the work to find out for you what you may or may not find to be a discrepancy or contradiction?  I say all this with a tone of humble helpfulness but not wanting to make guesses as to what your questions might be. I can assure you that I won't find any contradictions.
> 
> I have an idea, how about if you "read Chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Genesis carefully", and you _"_draw a timeline", and then let me know if you _"_find any discrepancies or contradictions", and then I'll give you my opinion.



I'm in hospital atm after a hip replacement. I could look for a commentary that will do the same thing but it is an exercise best done by yourself if you want to see what I mean by discrepancies.


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## ndynt (Aug 16, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I have never thought of Jim as confused about anything. I think Jim knows exactly who Jim is. Can not be said about everybody. Bible interpretation discussions never end well.


For it is almost always just that....interpretations.


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

Here you are Lara. This is a commentary, not necessarily the best one, that looks at Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis and talks about the differences.



> Rowley, in his discussion of the contradiction between the two chapters, stated:
> 
> “The first two chapters of the Bible contain two irreconcilable accounts of the Creation. According to the first account, a man and woman were together as the crown and climax of creation, after the birds and animals, whereas according to the second account the creation of man preceded the creation of the animals and birds while the creation of woman followed their creation.” (31/18)
> 
> ...




The differences are only really a problem for people who insist that every word of scripture must be taken literally even when translated into English from the original ancient languages. 

This site puts it all into some perspective: http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2716/differences-in-genesis-creation-stories


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I'm in hospital atm after a hip replacement. I could look for a commentary that will do the same thing but it is an exercise best done by yourself if you want to see what I mean by discrepancies.



Hope the replacement went well, DW. I have heard good things from people who have had it.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Best wishes for your speedy recovery Warri. Pleased you feel well enough to post. Surgery/post op certainly has not affected your intelligence. Sigh.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Interesting discussion.  I am glad we can have this exchange of ideas without being personal or offending.  Each of us has a belief system of one kind or another and airing them with friends is a good exercise in communication with respect for each others viewpoint.  It's all a matter of taste said the old farmer as he kissed his cow.


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

Thanks for the well wishes re my operation.
My recovery is well advanced now - I'm in a rehab hospital - and I have been keeping people up to date on my progress here : https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/15805-Hip-replacement-soon


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Thanks for the well wishes re my operation.
> My recovery is well advanced now - I'm in a rehab hospital - and I have been keeping people up to date on my progress here : https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/15805-Hip-replacement-soon



You'll be out running around like a young colt before long I bet.  Cheers.


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## Warrigal (Aug 16, 2015)

I certainly feel rejuvenated already. I'm hurting a bit from muscles that have long been idle suddenly being called into action. The hydrotherapy feels wonderful but the gym work hurts the knees as it strengthens the muscles around the hips. Still, no pain no gain and we are taking things in small increments.


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## Linda (Aug 17, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Thanks for the well wishes re my operation.
> My recovery is well advanced now - I'm in a rehab hospital - and I have been keeping people up to date on my progress here : https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/15805-Hip-replacement-soon




Thanks for sharing this with us Dame Warrigal.  This might be me one of these days.


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

That's why I have shared the experience, Linda.

I had heard that hip operations are generally beneficial and not too complicated.
My experience is that this is the case.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Goodo on your recovery!  Now to my spirituality, I wondered and wandered like Omar and have found myself, like him, a confirmed Hedonist...


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

:lofl: and a confirmed idiot.


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## Lara (Aug 17, 2015)

Dame Warrigal, I'm happy to hear that your recovery is coming along very well. I'll check out the link you posted for your updates. 

Regarding post #49, I don't ever read commentaries of the Bible because they are just someones observation minus God. I just pray before I read biblical scripture and ask God that the truth be revealed to me and that works well for me. There is a truthful and understandable explanation with evidence to all that you copied and pasted but way too much for me to post here in this thread so I will answer a copy/paste with a copy/paste if you don't mind. 

The two chapters in Genesis actually compliment each other rather than contradict. They are written to be seen as a unit for better understanding. The first is an introduction and outlines the broad process of creation of a world as fashioned for Adam & Eve to occupy. The second one pays greater attention to man and his setting. Genesis 1 covers 6 days of creation whereas Genesis 2 only covers one day, the 6th. And there are no contradictions.
______________________________
Here are 2 examples by Lee Strobel in "The Case for the Creator" and Logos Bible Software (but, again, I looked this up for you and copied and pasted to save time because you asked for so much…I personally just use God's Word):

1. There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man.

2. The second claimed contradiction is in regard to animal life. Genesis 1:24-25 records God creating animal life on the sixth day, before He created man. Genesis 2:19, in some translations, seems to record God creating the animals after He had created man. However, a good and plausible translation of Genesis 2:19-20 reads, “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.” The text does not say that God created man, then created the animals, and then brought the animals to the man. Rather, the text says, “Now the LORD God had [already] created all the animals.” There is no contradiction. On the sixth day, God created the animals, then created man, and then brought the animals to the man, allowing the man to name the animals.
________________________________

For all your answers to post #49, Josh McDowell who wrote "Evidence Demands a Verdict" explains Genesis 1 & 2 to the critics here in this link:
http://www.josh.org/resources/study...2-contain-contradictory-accounts-of-creation/


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

For me it all comes down to living the most authentic life possible, within my belief system. I leave theology to the theologians, who often spend lifetimes arguing on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Lol. I need something more 
substantive, I choose compassion, mindfulness, attempting to manifest in some small way that love is a verb, and that in the final analysis, only kindness matters. For this woman, there is a sense of pattern, order, a silent hum, if will, that connects us all. Beautiful.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Dame, this is like showdown poker, and I'm calling you to show me your cards revealing an afterlife...


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

I have no problem with the approach that recognises complimentary accounts but if they don't fit neatly together, it doesn't matter all that much. 

 I am not a learned scholar of Old Testament writings but I do know that there are a number of different traditions or strands that emphasise different things. One is the Yahwistic Tradition (J) where God is referred to as Yahweh and this is different to the Elohistic Tradition (E) where Elohim is used to denote God. When reading in English this difference is not clearly apparent. Also there is the Deuteronomistic (D) and Priestly (P) Traditions. All four are collected into the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible) which many people believe were all written by Moses but for a number of reasons this is not possible.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i... testament two traditions differences&f=false


It's all very complicated, which is the point that I was making. Bible study is both simple and difficult. My approach is to read some text and then reflect on it. Sometimes it speaks to me very meaningfully and at other time it seems completely opaque to me. I don't worry about that because as I have grown older and richer in life experience I find that I do have a greater capacity to derive meaning from the stories and lessons. I do listen to other people's insights though, especially those who have been trained in exegesis.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Omar listened to all of them and said that he came away with no better explanation than before he queried them, so exegesis didn't work for him, and I take his word for it.  Better to spend my time musing over a chess board or a good martini...


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

Some people find cosmological meaning in the bottom of a glass.
Most however, just find intoxication. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Winston Churchill said that he got more good from alcohol than bad...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 17, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Maybe a little but clearly Agnostic leaning toward Atheist.



Well, *od bless your little soul! 

I tend to follow philosophical Taoism (NOT the religious version).


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## Lara (Aug 17, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Interesting discussion.  I am glad we can have this exchange of ideas without being personal or offending.  Each of us has a belief system of one kind or another and airing them with friends is a good exercise in communication with respect for each others viewpoint.  It's all a matter of taste said the old farmer as he kissed his cow.


Amen.:thumbsup:


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## Glinda (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Re Jim being labeled as spiritually confused, and not a seeker? I thought denying absolutism, paint by number beliefs, in favour of the painful inner  struggle to find a set of beliefs/principals that resonated with one's sense of personal ethics truly defined the essence of a seeker with or without a label. It certainly is spiritual enough for me.



I agree, Shali.  My parents were so-called "born again" Christians and disappointed that I didn't get myself "saved."  By the age of 12, I had decided that organized religion was not for me.  I do not consider the bible or any other supposed holy book sacred.  I'm more of the Jiminy Cricket school of thought - Always let your conscience be your guide.  As for the existence of God or a god-like entity, I stop short of calling myself an atheist because I've had experiences that science can't explain and would call "supernatural."  Others would call them "spiritual."  I just say hmmm . . .  . . . and continue to observe and question.


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## Rocky (Aug 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I tend to follow philosophical Taoism (NOT the religious version).



_Exactly how I describe myself, SP.  You are the first soul I've run into to describe himself in that way.  _

_Earlier there was this post: _ Now though, paganism seems closer to my philosophy and mostly because I  think that at a level far beyond this material reality, I think that we  and everything in this world, are connected, as in 'all one'.  In fact, I  think we are all small segments or 'individuations' of whatever great,  organizing energy that is the source of this amazing universe.  

_The "all that is" as the Taoist writings tell us. And "That which cannot be known"._


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## Cookie (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't have any belief system down in stone, or follow any particular school of thought or dogma. I also try to keep an open mind and do what feels right to me in a relaxed intuitive manner, without getting too rigid or excited about it.  As a young person I considered myself to be on what is known as 'the path of enlightenment' but since then have stepped on and off and on again more than a few times. One thing I have learned about religion and many other things is that 'it's all in the mind'.


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## Underock1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I don't have any belief system down in stone, or follow any particular school of thought or dogma. I also try to keep an open mind and do what feels right to me in a relaxed intuitive manner, without getting too rigid or excited about it.  As a young person I considered myself to be on what is known as 'the path of enlightenment' but since then have stepped on and off and on again more than a few times. One thing I have learned about religion and many other things is that 'it's all in the mind'.



Absolutely. The last place people seem to look for it. I discovered Buddha, the man, just a few years ago. The religion doesn't interest me at all, but many of the sayings _attributed _to Buddha resonate with me. Accept life for what it is. Most of all, be kind.


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## Davey Jones (Aug 17, 2015)

I gave up on all religions after losing the wife 8 years ago and 32 year old daughter 6 years ago, I hated it when people say to me "it was Gods will". BS


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

I am sorry for your losses Davey. It certainly wasn't about any God's will.


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I don't have any belief system down in stone, or follow any particular school of thought or dogma. I also try to keep an open mind and do what feels right to me in a relaxed intuitive manner, without getting too rigid or excited about it.  As a young person I considered myself to be on what is known as 'the path of enlightenment' but since then have stepped on and off and on again more than a few times. One thing I have learned about religion and many other things is that 'it's all in the mind'.




I don't think any of us every step off that path to enlightenment Cookie.  I think even those times when we're not actively aiming for that goal, we're progressing towards it because those bad times teach us stuff which we simply don't understand until after we've gone through it.  It's all part of an immense process that goes on forever.  

Even involvement in any of the religions or lack of involvement is part of that process.


And Davey, religion is only one of man's attempt to explain things they don't understand and to bring meaning into our lives.  But there's other ways too and from all the reading that I've done and talked about a while back, I have no doubt that you and your wife and daughter will see each other again.  You've travelled through eternity together, why should that change?  For you it's been years, but for them hardly a moment and then you'll be together again and it will be a fabulous reunion!


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## SifuPhil (Aug 17, 2015)

Cookie said:


> ...  As a young person I considered myself to be on what is known as 'the path of enlightenment' but since then have stepped on and off and on again more than a few times ...



Well do I know the feeling - my own high-traction path was jack-hammered out from under me and replaced with a sheet of ice.

Paths shouldn't be followed mindlessly anyway.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Hmm. Except for a few, I thought that most of us learn/earn our enlightenment through repeated skiing on our nose in the gravel.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm. Except for a few, I thought that most of us learn/earn our enlightenment through repeated skiing on our nose in the gravel.



I'm not so sure. I've met a few people that have never faced a challenge to their belief system, and as a result I don't know if it would support them in times of stress. It's always the crucible-fired sword that proves its hardness in battle ...


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

I hear you Phil. I can only speak to my own experience where everything I learned was acquired the hard way.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I hear you Phil. I can only speak to my own experience where everything I learned was acquired the hard way.



Pretty much the same here.  Except I was lucky enough to have a little formal training to boot ...


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## AZ Jim (Aug 17, 2015)

Contradictions in the bible? *Yes* to those who take the literal word as written.  *No* to those who rationalize all of them by their definitions of what the words _really_ mean.  Believe it or don't, it's your choice but I'm betting I won't be smitten for not buying it.


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## Underock1 (Aug 17, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> I gave up on all religions after losing the wife 8 years ago and 32 year old daughter 6 years ago, I hated it when people say to me "it was Gods will". BS



I hear you, Davey. Lost my 40 year old son, and my wife of 56 years just this past year. Non-believers. Tough to listen to all of the "God's plan", "She's in Heaven with Mom and Barbara now." "You'll meet again someday" and "Our prayers are with you" stuff. "Sorry for your loss" would have been quite sufficient. Its particularly hard, because I know the words are sincerely meant as a source of comfort. I really care about the people making the comments, so I responded with a polite "Thank you for your thoughts." While trying to have my final moments with my wife, I had to be interrupted to fend off the "help" offered by the hospital priest.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I hear you, Davey. Lost my 40 year old son, and my wife of 56 years just this past year. Non-believers. Tough to listen to all of the "God's plan", "She's in Heaven with Mom and Barbara now." "You'll meet again someday" and "Our prayers are with you" stuff. "Sorry for your loss" would have been quite sufficient. Its particularly hard, because I know the words are sincerely meant as a source of comfort. I really care about the people making the comments, so I responded with a polite "Thank you for your thoughts." While trying to have my final moments with my wife, I had to be interrupted to fend off the "help" offered by the hospital priest.



You know, my friend, we know so little about our end here and what it means.  I do not buy into religion but I am open to other ideas.  We may never know.  Our last breath may be the last thing we know, but maybe not.  One life may, in fact, not be our end.  I understand your loss.


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## Davey Jones (Aug 17, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I hear you, Davey. Lost my 40 year old son, and my wife of 56 years just this past year. Non-believers. Tough to listen to all of the "God's plan", "She's in Heaven with Mom and Barbara now." "You'll meet again someday" and "Our prayers are with you" stuff. "Sorry for your loss" would have been quite sufficient. Its particularly hard, because I know the words are sincerely meant as a source of comfort. I really care about the people making the comments, so I responded with a polite "Thank you for your thoughts." While trying to have my final moments with my wife, I had to be interrupted to fend off the "help" offered by the hospital priest.




I really hate it when they say that "You will meet again someday".  Simply saying "sorry for you loss" is good enough for me.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 17, 2015)

Davey, I also know that kind of loss and know what you mean.  I am truly sorry about your loss and mine too.


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## hollydolly (Aug 17, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have to think of myself as an agnostic.  I was raised Catholic and spent 8 yrs. in Catholic school, almost every day of the week in church for one reason or another.  When I became an adult, I had no need or desire to be involved with any organized religions.  I was born with a good heart, and raised by my parents to respect and be kind to other people and animals. * I believe in karma to a great degree, but sometimes see that with evil people who kill and torture, that they don't always get what's coming to them, in other words, what goes around doesn't always come around in those instance*s.



I agree with every word you've written there SB... I have said so many times in my life exactly the same thing!! Regularly  I'll read or hear people talking on the subject of Karma saying how they believe what goes around come around etc and those who have caused others to suffer should receive bad karma in return..irony at it's best because they are usually the ones who have been causing unnecessary suffering to others in one way or another.


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> I really hate it when they say that "You will meet again someday".  Simply saying "sorry for you loss" is good enough for me.




Sorry, didn't mean to offend.  I'll keep that in mind for future reference.


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## Linda (Aug 17, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> I really hate it when they say that "You will meet again someday".  Simply saying "sorry for you loss" is good enough for me.




I know what you mean Davey.  The ones I hate the most are "It is God's will" or "God needed another flower in his garden" or something like that!!!  I would prefer people just say "I am sorry for your loss" and that is what most people say in the circle of people I know.   I see a lot of us on this forum have lost one or more of our children and of course several a spouse.  We are all in this together and sometimes we are just numb with pain and have to try and force one foot in front of the other.   This forum is great because it's a good place to go and just talk about this and that or laugh or even disagree about something, and escape from our troubles for awhile.


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## Linda (Aug 17, 2015)

Debby said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to offend.  I'll keep that in mind for future reference.



Debby, I personally don't mind "You will meet again someday" because I *HOPE* it's true.  But I sure understand why others don't want to be told that.  One of my friends sent me a privet message on FB and all it said was "My heart breaks for you".  That is a good one for a close friend or neighbor.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

For many, the belief in Karma exists side by side with a belief in reincarnation. With that in mind, there is no time limit on justice.


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## Linda (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> For many, the belief in Karma exists side by side with a belief in reincarnation. With that in mind, there is no time limit on justice.




I think I am one of those "many" you speak of.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 17, 2015)

The "best" response - and the one that sent me on my search for a belief system that worked for me - was the one I received from a Catholic priest when I was 12 years old.

My sister had died by a drunk driver on the night of her nursing school graduation, and one month later my father died from a gangrene infection in the intestines. At the funeral, I managed to corner the priest and ask him why this had to happen.

"God wanted them more than you, son" was his answer.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Phil, ouch!


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## Glinda (Aug 17, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> The "best" response - and the one that sent me on my search for a belief system that worked for me - was the one I received from a Catholic priest when I was 12 years old.
> 
> My sister had died by a drunk driver on the night of her nursing school graduation, and one month later my father died from a gangrene infection in the intestines. At the funeral, I managed to corner the priest and ask him why this had to happen.
> 
> "God wanted them more than you, son" was his answer.



Phil, that must have been really rough for you - and only 12 years old - I'm so sorry.


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

Life is like an English sentence. It has a beginning and an end. The part between the capital letter and the full stop is what really matters. It may be short and meaningful or much longer, full of beauty and harmony. We only have partial control of the content of the sentence but if we could have full control, I wonder what we would write.

I'd like mine to say "Over time she became ever more loving." In the end, I believe that nothing matters more than this.

My mother's life sentence must surely read "She was always laughing and would give you her last shilling if you needed it."


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Warri, I would have loved to meet your mother. I think your epitaph (if you have one,) should include " she aspired, successfully, to live a life grounded in integrity and kindness." I wonder if you realise the impact you have? I suspect you are far too modest. People such as you, give the walking wounded such as myself, hope.  Unknowingly, you provide balance. Oh, boy, choking up.


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## Shirley (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> For me it all comes down to living the most authentic life possible, within my belief system. I leave theology to the theologians, who often spend lifetimes arguing on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Lol. I need something more
> substantive, "I choose compassion, mindfulness, attempting to manifest in some small way that love is a verb, and that in the final analysis, only kindness matters". For this woman, there is a sense of pattern, order, a silent hum, if will, that connects us all. Beautiful.



Then you are Christlike. That is what he tried to teach us. If we could leave all the trappings and get back to what He taught, the earth would be a wonderful place.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Wow, Shirley, that stopped me in my tracks. I am touched beyond measure by your words. However, this broken being hardly merits standing in that presence. That said, my humanity is all I truly own, and I will not forfeit it for anything.


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## Shirley (Aug 17, 2015)

Well, you're still a pretty good ol' gal. (In spite of your humanity.)


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Gosh, Shirley, I like you too.:love_heart:


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Warri, I would have loved to meet your mother. I think your epitaph (if you have one,) should include " she aspired, successfully, to live a life grounded in integrity and kindness." I wonder if you realise the impact you have? I suspect you are far too modest. People such as you, give the walking wounded such as myself, hope.  Unknowingly, you provide balance. Oh, boy, choking up.



Thanks for the compliment Shalimar, but you haven't seen the full picture. I have had to deal with my own judgmental streak, one that was once worthy of Oliver Cromwell and  a reticence to show emotion that caused me to present as cold. 

When people talk about being born again and becoming a new creation it is a mistake to think that this is an instantaneous transformation. It is but the beginning of a new journey, down a path not travelled before. It leads to an unexpected destination - letting go of emotional shackles and becoming more fully human than before.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Umm Warri? Perhaps I may be just a tad perceptive enough to see beyond some of  that stuff. Not attempting to attach a halo 
here, just recognise what I see. We are all under construction, that is the point I think. Aspiring to be better people. It is important to honour our journey, fragmented though it is.


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## Ruthanne (Aug 17, 2015)

Spiritually I'm not sure what I am any more.  I have to say I am agnostic.  I was raised Catholic and after that I ran away from the church long ago.  Over the years I have looked into different things, ways of being, try to be my best but often fall short.


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## Butterfly (Aug 18, 2015)

I am a Lutheran, which I kind of stumbled upon after being away from religion for years.  I had been seriously soured by the fundamentalist fire and brimstone of my childhood.  Lutheranism spoke to me on a deep level at a very low point in my life, particularly the concept of the "Grace that sets you free."


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## Debby (Aug 18, 2015)

Linda said:


> Debby, I personally don't mind "You will meet again someday" because I *HOPE* it's true.  But I sure understand why others don't want to be told that.  One of my friends sent me a privet message on FB and all it said was "My heart breaks for you".  That is a good one for a close friend or neighbor.




A couple months ago I was having a breakdown in my doctors office because I was going to euthanize my old horses and all it took was him putting his hand over mine and giving it a little squeeze (and then a prescription for Ativan!)  Just knowing someone, for a moment, recognizes your hurt is often enough.


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## Linda (Aug 18, 2015)

Debby said:


> A couple months ago I was having a breakdown in my doctors office because I was going to euthanize my old horses and all it took was him putting his hand over mine and giving it a little squeeze (and then a prescription for Ativan!)  Just knowing someone, for a moment, recognizes your hurt is often enough.




Sounds like you have a good Dr.  I'm very sorry you had to have your horses euthanized.    Do you have any other pets now?  I think you said on another thread that you don't.


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