# What's With All This ****** Harassment Stuff Going On?



## Lon (Nov 22, 2017)

Is it like a contagious disease?Or did some one just start the thought and others picked up on it. I really can't believe it's to the extent that we are reading about in the press.


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## applecruncher (Nov 22, 2017)

The press isn't 'inventing' ****** harassment stories - they don't need to. Many of the men have admitted what they were accused of.  I think what's being reported is the tip of the iceberg......it's much worse and always has been.


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## CindyLouWho (Nov 22, 2017)

Well, I believe "Harvey" started the whole domino effect....since other women or men then felt  they could tell their stories .....strength in numbers.


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## applecruncher (Nov 22, 2017)

CindyLouWho said:


> Well, I believe "Harvey" started the whole domino effect....since other women or men then felt  they could tell their stories .....strength in numbers.



Actually Cosby accusers came out before Weinstein.


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## Falcon (Nov 22, 2017)

It's not new Lon.  Been going on for years and years.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 22, 2017)

Given how much ****** harassment I've personally seen or know about, I think this is only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Lon (Nov 22, 2017)

I know it's been going on for years and will continue as long as there are men and women on this planet but what good is it to have the media continue to hype it? It was only yesterday that I had some lady pinch my butt in the elevator. What should I do?


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 22, 2017)

It's interesting to see the wide variety of things that are being reported and considered ****** harassment.

It makes me think back to some of the inappropriate things that used to happen in our work group.  We would have all been fired if our comments and behavior was looked at in the same way as some of the recently reported incidents.  I think that we each need to decide for ourselves what is an inappropriate ****** advance and have the confidence to stand up and call the person out or report them when such advances are made to us or in our presence.

It will be interesting to see if any lasting changes come out of these high profile media reports.  My fear is that it will just be another case of knocking down some high profile people and after they hit bottom watching the media cover the comeback and redemption.


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## IKE (Nov 22, 2017)

Lon said:


> It was only yesterday that I had some lady pinch my butt in the elevator. What should I do ?



Just enjoy the moment and spend more time riding elevators.


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## Kadee (Nov 22, 2017)

Wonder how much it has to do with $$$$$$$$ Don’t get me wrong SH is totally unacceptable in my eyes 
and it all go’s as far back as the Kennedy family from my memory


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## Sassycakes (Nov 22, 2017)

I knew there was always some sort of ****** advances because Men always held the higher position and Women were afraid to report it for fear of losing their jobs. I have not heard so many Women coming out before. Of course I had never heard about ****** abuse by Priests until many years after it was going on. We live in a crazy world.


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## applecruncher (Nov 22, 2017)

Kadee46 said:


> Wonder how much it has to do with $$$$$$$$ Don’t get me wrong SH is totally unacceptable in my eyes
> and it all go’s as far back as the Kennedy family from my memory



Not sure what you mean or what you've heard/read about the Kennedys but they certainly didn't start ****** harassment so let's not point the finger at them.  Inappropriate ****** behavior went on for many generations -_ inside and outside the USA _- prior to anyone knowing about the Kennedys.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 22, 2017)

Lon said:


> I know it's been going on for years and will continue as long as there are men and women on this planet but what good is it to have the media continue to hype it? It was only yesterday that I had some lady pinch my butt in the elevator. What should I do?



Do you work for her?

I don't think the media is the problem.


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## tnthomas (Nov 22, 2017)

Lon said:


> It was only yesterday that I had some lady pinch my butt in the elevator. What should I do?



You should slap yourself because I think you were dreamin'!


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## Kadee (Nov 22, 2017)

Your correct AC I know little about the Kennedy family only what was reported on TV in Australia over many years, .May  I ask just how far back do the kennedy’s go I’m not sure with asking Mr Google ...?
 We have had several mini series on TV about the scandals that inflicted the family, so that’s all I have to,go on along with TV reports


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## debbie in seattle (Nov 22, 2017)

Bunch of old men who have power and have never have been made responsible for their actions.


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## applecruncher (Nov 22, 2017)

Kadee46 said:


> Your correct AC I know little about the Kennedy family only what was reported on TV in Australia over many years, .May  I ask just how far back do the kennedy’s go I’m not sure with asking Mr Google ...?
> We have had several mini series on TV about the scandals that inflicted the family, so that’s all I have to,go on along with TV reports



I don't think the Kennedys are the issue or even relevant to the topic.  My point is there has been inappropriate ****** behavior for centuries.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 22, 2017)

I worked with a pervert who was supposedly acting crazy because he was going through male menopause or some equally feeble excuse. He sat in his office playing with sex toys all day. None of the women who worked there were safe around him because he thought we existed for him to grab us; the men who owned and ran the company had been enabling the jerk for years.

I warned him if he ever put his hands on me again I was calling the law, but one day I was using the photocopier and he came up behind me and grabbed my breasts. I got away from him, walked over to the phone and called the police. I knew they wouldn't do anything about the ongoing ****** harassment because as we all know boys will be boys, but I knew someone putting his hands on me was assault and I pushed for him to be charged. The cops arrested him and there was quite a kerfuffle with my boss trying to talk me out of it, but I stood my ground. The perv ended up with a record for assault and was given a fairly long probation with the requirement that he undergo intensive therapy. If he reoffended he was headed for jail. I was surprised at the judge because he wasn't into the theory of boys will be boys and made sure the guy adhered to the terms of his probation.

After the arrest I found another job because I realized I hated all of those men for letting him get by with that for years.


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## Butterfly (Nov 23, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Given how much ****** harassment I've personally seen or know about, I think this is only the tip of the iceberg.



I agree, Jane.  It has always been epidemic in the workplace, but most women (and men) were reluctant to say anything about it out of fear for their jobs, or their careers, or that it would be made to look like it was all their fault, or worse.  

Anyone who hasn't seen it hasn't been paying attention.


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## Butterfly (Nov 23, 2017)

It certainly didn't start with the Kennedys -- it's been going on for hundreds of years.  Look at the behavior of the European aristocracy towards their "inferiors."  Of course, it wasn't called ****** harrassment back then, but a rose by any other name . . . .

Men, old or young, with power (real or assumed) have always preyed on women without it.


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## Kaya (Nov 23, 2017)

ike said:


> just enjoy the moment and spend more time riding elevators.



hahahahaha!!!!


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I agree, Jane.  It has always been epidemic in the workplace, but most women (and men) were reluctant to say anything about it out of fear for their jobs, or their careers, or that it would be made to look like it was all their fault, or worse.
> 
> Anyone who hasn't seen it hasn't been paying attention.


Absolutely. I was one of those women. Professor/mentor in grad school raped me.  If I had said anything, I would have lost my place at a prestigious university, been blackballed elsewhere, no PhD possible. I was one of many.


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## terry123 (Nov 23, 2017)

I know when I worked it happened some and management took it seriously.  We knew who did it and we looked out for it and tried to stay away from those men.  But we knew if there were a problem to report it.  I always encouraged my ladies to let me know if there was a problem and I would take care of it in a minute.  It was known that I did not put up with any bad behavior towards the ladies in the corporate office.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

It's all part of rape culture, the belief that men are superior to women and therefore have a right and perhaps even an obligation to prove their superiority. In the workplace, it's ****** harassment. In the streets and on college campuses, it's rape. Victim-blaming is part of rape culture and it's pervasive. I've read some truly despicable things on social media, some of it supposedly written by women.


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

This touching and whatever by horny men is never the blame for the ladies that dress in seductive clothing and make up and act in teasing ways.   Short and too tight skirts and crossed legs when sitting.   Blouses that are cut all the way to the belt line.   Baiting the males with dress and comments then crying to the management about comments and whistles and touching.   As has recently turned out for one TV broadcaster it seemed almost to be a one way trip to being a millionaire.   

In politics it has been used to reduce one parities strength in the Congress.   Recently the opposing party has had a run on some of their Congressional persons.   So now I expect that political tool for running 'bad' guys out of their jobs may have run its road and will now end.

Folks that have read my posts in the past know that I want 'parties' to be ignored in our Congress and make the elected use the Constitutions rules of electing as your electors have wanted.   There is nothing in the Constitution that supports the party to be our directors at all.

Bottom line is that as long as their are seductive women and horny men there will be some not so nice things happening.

This is not saying that the courts should not protect the ladies from out of line men's actions or of allowing ladies to try to turn their efforts into dressing and acting such that men's actions do get aroused.   This out of line activity does have more than just men chasing powerless women as some want to portray it.   But that is also one way these things do happen.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> It's all part of rape culture, the belief that men are superior to women and therefore have a right and perhaps even an obligation to prove their superiority. In the workplace, it's ****** harassment. In the streets and on college campuses, it's rape. Victim-blaming is part of rape culture and it's pervasive. I've read some truly despicable things on social media, some of it supposedly written by women.


I know! I yearn for the day when a true sisterhood among women replaces the atmosphere of competition and disdain which still poisons the attitudes many women hold toward each other.


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## debbie in seattle (Nov 23, 2017)

How about if the female population starts punching the old perverts when they want to act (and think it’s their ‘right’) that way?    Priceless!


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## Sunny (Nov 23, 2017)

> This is not saying that the courts should not protect the ladies from  out of line men's actions or of allowing ladies to try to turn their  efforts into dressing and acting such that men's actions do get aroused.    This out of line activity does have more than just men chasing  powerless women as some want to portray it.   But that is also one way  these things do happen.



Hey Bob, you trying to start a fight here? 

Just in case you're serious, no this behavior is not provoked by the way women dress.  I very much doubt that all the thousands of women reporting being touched (or worse) inappropriately were really dressed like hookers
at work.

And even if they were, what's wrong with the men exercising a bit of self-control?  Are they human beings, or horny apes?


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

I think we're overlooking the fact that in certain jobs, TV newscasting for example, women are required to dress like BobF described. 

I worked for a law firm where a woman was seriously injured because she was wearing stilettos (her husband thought they were sexy). The firm made a dress code rule that prohibited heels more than 1-1/2 inches high. Because I never wore heels, I didn't realize how unusual that was until they did it.

I've heard too many women say if they wanted to be promoted, they had to dress seductively.

Edited to add: Who is requiring women to dress seductively at work? Those same dirty old men who blame women when they drool all over them.

I can't help laughing at the thought of Charlie Rose sitting around naked around his female employees apparently thinking any woman who saw that would desperately want some of it. Rolling my eyes at the delusion.

Time to learn to keep your hands to yourself and act respectfully toward others.


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## Knight (Nov 23, 2017)

WHEW!!! I think I dodged a bullet on this harrassment thing.


I don't live in the seniors community close to where I live but do have friends there. Being an "outsider" one of my friends asked me to judge a wet T shirt contest they were going to have in the community center. I guess the thought was because I didn't live in the community I'd be fair & impartial,


As you all may know size, shape, fullness are criteria for judging. I declined judging because lifting those breasts to check could easily cause me to be accused of fondling. 


Anyone take notice the men accused all seem to be a 2 or less on the scale of being good looking?


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

Yes, Knight. Like all the women I know would line up to have sex with handsome Harvey Weinstein.


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

It's been going one since forever! Kings, emperors, landlords, teachers, clergymen, anyone at any time in the world's history that had an advantage to help a woman, has used that position to force himself upon her. 

Agree, only the tip of the iceberg.


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Hey Bob, you trying to start a fight here?
> 
> Just in case you're serious, no this behavior is not provoked by the way women dress.  I very much doubt that all the thousands of women reporting being touched (or worse) inappropriately were really dressed like hookers
> at work.
> ...



My response to your point is that maybe it is also time for some women to start showing some self control when dressing.  

I worked for a very large corporation for most of my work years and their public image during those years was nice and conservative.   Not so these days.   Clothing for all was conservative.   Men wore business suits or more casual dress jackets and and all with ties.   Ladies were also considered to dress conservative.   I doubt that today's fashions would be allowed with that management of those days.

Not saying that some men just have less than conservative ideas as do some of our women.   It is not a men only problem.  

Today it is OK for two folks to just agree to live together and then split and go their own ways.   I am not a church goer but do see some good thinking from many that do follow religious ideas.

If we are just talking about rape, no problem.   Call the COP's.   Being whistled at and hearing suggestive comments is just the way some folks are looking for by the way they are dressing and acting themselves.

It is not just a bunch of bad men on the prowl.


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

If a man can't keep his hands to himself however she is dressed or undressed, he should not be allowed out of the house without a caretaker.

A man should be able and IS able to control himself. No more of this "boys will be boys" crap.


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> If a man can't keep his hands to himself however she is dressed or undressed, he should not be allowed out of the house without a caretaker.
> 
> A man should be able and IS able to control himself. No more of this "boys will be boys" crap.



Does this mean a man should not admire a lady for looking good and stylish?    A whistle or a comment for example.   No hands on or efforts to cause submission?    Where is the line?


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

delete


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

BobF said:


> Does this mean a man should not admire a lady for looking good and stylish?    A whistle or a comment for example.   No hands on or efforts to cause submission?    Where is the line?



It means what I wrote.

I said nothing about admiration. That is not the topic.   

I don't believe you don't know the difference.


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## Butterfly (Nov 23, 2017)

Knight said:


> WHEW!!! I think I dodged a bullet on this harrassment thing.
> 
> 
> I don't live in the seniors community close to where I live but do have friends there. Being an "outsider" one of my friends asked me to judge a wet T shirt contest they were going to have in the community center. I guess the thought was because I didn't live in the community I'd be fair & impartial,
> ...



Yup, I'd sooner kiss a warthog than that Weinstein guy.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

A warthog is prettier. (And probably has nicer breath.)


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## Butterfly (Nov 23, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Hey Bob, you trying to start a fight here?
> 
> Just in case you're serious, no this behavior is not provoked by the way women dress.  I very much doubt that all the thousands of women reporting being touched (or worse) inappropriately were really dressed like hookers
> at work.
> ...



It's the ago-old excuse "I just couldn't help myself."  Horsepuckey!!  NO matter what a woman is wearing, it doesn't make her fair game -- EVER!  If a woman sees you have a big fat wallet , does it give her the right to steal it?  No.  Same goes.  Geez!


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> It's the ago-old excuse "I just couldn't help myself."  Horsepuckey!!  NO matter what a woman is wearing, it doesn't make her fair game -- EVER!  If a woman sees you have a big fat wallet , does it give her the right to steal it?  No.  Same goes.  Geez!



I want all others to be proud of how I look in our latest fashions, the girl tells herself.   But if someone whistles or others start saying things about how I look, then I am being harassed unfairly and want them arrested.  Or if you prefer, just buy me off with a few million dollars and I will go somewhere else.   This is what it appears to have happened at one of our leading TV broadcasters.  One after another suddenly gone, and some were pretty good announcers too.   We now have an almost knew bunch leading the programs.   Those accused are still claiming to have done nothing personal or wrong.    No rapes claimed, just harassed. 

Time to end so much of this nonsense and just blaming the men.   If there were no women wanting to look good there would be no men telling them so.

Folks with claims and justification seem to be OK while it seems many are just fence sitters trying to make an issue with no justifications.

These charges need to be brought up in court if really wanting changes made.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

BobF said:


> I want all others to be proud of how I look in out latest fashions, the girl tells herself.   But if someone whistles or others start saying things about how I look, then I am being harassed unfairly and want them arrested.  Or if you prefer, just buy me off with a few million dollars and I will go somewhere else.   This is what it appears to have happened at one of our leading TV broadcasters.  One after another suddenly gone, and some were pretty good announcers too.   We now have an almost knew bunch leading the programs.   Those accused are still claiming to have done nothing personal or wrong.    No rapes claimed, just harassed.
> 
> Time to end so much of this nonsense and just blaming the men.   If there were no women wanting to look good there would be no men telling them so.
> 
> ...



Bob, please stop trivializing ****** harassment.


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## tnthomas (Nov 23, 2017)

Lon said:


> Is it like a contagious disease?Or did some one just start the thought and others picked up on it. I really can't believe it's to the extent that we are reading about in the press.




Way-to-go Lon, you really know how to p!$$ off the women here, and make all the men look like idiots.

...like throwing Molotov cocktails into a crowded street, then sitting back and watching chaos ensue...


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

BobF,

"If there were no women wanting to_* look good there would be no men telling them so."
*_*
Bob, This is not the issue!!!* 

Read from the beginning and stop deliberately trying to twist the issue into something else. Or start another thread.


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Way-to-go Lon, you really know how to p!$$ off the women here, and make all the men look like idiots.
> 
> ...like throwing Molotov cocktails into a crowded street, then sitting back and watching chaos ensue...



Thomas, that's our Lon; a self-admitted pot-stirrer and very well practiced at it. We all bite. LOL, he's like a drop of tabasco on the eggs, in case things get dull...

 Hey, maybe BobF is, too.. argument for argument's sake. That's ok, we are all of our own minds in the end. Not ALL men are idiots, just......many. But times, they are a-changing. Someday, women will even take back the night!


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> BobF,
> 
> "If there were no women wanting to_* look good there would be no men telling them so."
> *_*
> ...



So far you have avoided the issue entirely.   It is about false claims against many folks but no charges filed in the courts.   Sounds a lot like a big fraud going on.

If forceful sex or rape then get the police involved.   If no charges that can go to court then no reason for all this repeating nonsense over and over.   Find a real cause and let this phony one go, or find some real charges and get the police and courts involved.   

Look now, even a bunch of Democrats involved.   No longer just a one sided political battle.   Now both sides are involved.    If some of the accusers can bring some folks into court we can discuss them for sure.   For all those that can't or won't bring issues into the courts, then who is lieing and who might be telling the truth. 

Fairness is the claim.   I agree, the men need just as much fairness as the ladies do.


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## RadishRose (Nov 23, 2017)

The police don't always get involved, Bob. The great majority of female victims have been too frightened to stand up.

"get the police and courts involved.   " ? The courts with mostly male judges, of the "boys will be boys" genre? Like Judge "Can't- Blame- A- Guy- For- Trying" Pickett of CT? Yes he really said that.

These "boys" need to act like adults finally, or serve time. But since I don't wish to bang my head on the keyboard Bob, I'll agree to disagree. I'll say no more of this to you, and Happy Thanksgiving.


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## BobF (Nov 23, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> The police don't always get involved, Bob. The great majority of female victims have been too frightened to stand up.
> 
> "get the police and courts involved.   " ? The courts with mostly male judges, of the "boys will be boys" genre? Like Judge "Can't- Blame- A- Guy- For- Trying" Pickett of CT? Yes he really said that.
> 
> These "boys" need to act like adults finally, or serve time. But since I don't wish to bang my head on the keyboard Bob, I'll agree to disagree. I'll say no more of this to you, and Happy Thanksgiving.



And you still have not really faced the issues at all.   If no charges can be made then they did not happen.   Period.   It is not boys out of control anymore than girls out of control.   All of this hateful evil men nonsense should end.   Get the ladies to bring charges and then you will be able to say who is wrong and why.   Till then there is no bad men to be afraid of.   I consider following today's fashions to be bad for the ladies if those fashions lead to unwanted harassment.   Maybe a bit of conservatism might help those easy to offend ladies.

I hope this is just about the end of the press making such big deals out of nothing and we get back into fairness for all.   That would be a real experience for many of us in the US.

Your comments about the judges would likely be true if they are mostly of the liberal thinking types.   We need more and better judges than what we have in some of our courts.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 23, 2017)

BobF said:


> And you still have not really faced the issues at all.   If no charges can be made then they did not happen.   Period.   It is not boys out of control anymore than girls out of control.   All of this hateful evil men nonsense should end.   Get the ladies to bring charges and then you will be able to say who is wrong and why.   Till then there is no bad men to be afraid of.   I consider following today's fashions to be bad for the ladies if those fashions lead to unwanted harassment.   Maybe a bit of conservatism might help those easy to offend ladies.
> 
> I hope this is just about the end of the press making such big deals out of nothing and we get back into fairness for all.   That would be a real experience for many of us in the US.
> 
> Your comments about the judges would likely be true if they are mostly of the liberal thinking types.   We need more and better judges than what we have in some of our courts.


It's not about fashion.  It takes a *certain kind of man* to sexually harass and rape.  It's about *power* for those men.  Many women and girls are afraid to report it at the time.  They are traumatized and sometimes cannot even function after it happens!  For a long time, too, sometimes most of the rest of their life.  Many of them have to have counseling for  a real long time and some never get it because they feel so ashamed of what happened to them and blame themselves.  It is *not* their fault, though, at all!!  Most of them get PTSD and that's just how bad it is!


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> It's not about fashion.  It takes a *certain kind of man* to sexually harass and rape.  It's about *power* for those men.  Many women and girls are afraid to report it at the time.  They are traumatized and sometimes cannot even function after it happens!  For a long time, too, sometimes most of the rest of their life.  Many of them have to have counseling for  a real long time and some never get it because they feel so ashamed of what happened to them and blame themselves.  It is *not* their fault, though, at all!!  Most of them get PTSD and that's just how bad it is!


Yes. Yes. Yes. I have seen so many lives crippled/destroyed by this type of violence.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 23, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Yes. Yes. Yes. I have seen so many lives crippled/destroyed by this type of violence.


Yes, it does that definitely.  It's such a personal violation!


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## Butterfly (Nov 24, 2017)

BobF said:


> *And you still have not really faced the issues at all.   If no charges can be made then they did not happen.   Period.   It is not boys out of control anymore than girls out of control.   All of this hateful evil men nonsense should end.   Get the ladies to bring charges and then you will be able to say who is wrong and why.   Till then there is no bad men to be afraid of.   I consider following today's fashions to be bad for the ladies if those fashions lead to unwanted harassment.   Maybe a bit of conservatism might help those easy to offend ladies.
> *
> I hope this is just about the end of the press making such big deals out of nothing and we get back into fairness for all.   That would be a real experience for many of us in the US.
> 
> Your comments about the judges would likely be true if they are mostly of the liberal thinking types.   We need more and better judges than what we have in some of our courts.



You live in a very strange world, Bob.  You probably think Bill Cosby is a nice guy, too.


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## BobF (Nov 24, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> You live in a very strange world, Bob.  You probably think Bill Cosby is a nice guy, too.



It all comes down to provable charges.    Destroying political lives or men's careers with no proofs at all is criminal in itself.  We do have a legal system in the US and it should be used.   No reason those younger women can not be trained to call the police and end this unfounded search for guilty.   If folks do not like the judges on the bench then work to get new judges elected or anointed.   Stand by what is right by our Constitution and legal system.   No need for all this unproven nonsense.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 24, 2017)

How unusual. An enabling male has decided to dominate the thread. Welcome to the world of male domination, BobF.


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## BobF (Nov 24, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> How unusual. An enabling male has decided to dominate the thread. Welcome to the world of male domination, BobF.



Since when has wanting to use our forces, police and judges and honesty, been determined to be dominating the thread.   Nobody, young or old need to put up with all this ****** nonsense and the way to stop it is to bring in the authorities and end all this false accusations.   It is truth and facts and not lies and false accusations that will fix the problem.


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## Warrigal (Nov 24, 2017)

Bobf, with due respect, you have never had to face this problem personally. I'm assuming that as a boy you were not molested and that you yourself are not a ****** predator. However, I truly doubt that the females in your family have all gotten off scot free.

I have not had any psychologically scarring experiences either but my intellectually disabled grand daughter has. There are plenty of opportunistic men, sometimes as in my GD's case, assisted by a female partner, who take advantage of vulnerability of young women. When the man is in a position of power over the young women, e.g. a Hollywood producer, some of them behave as if the woman is theirs for the taking. And not just young women either. It is less common but young men are preyed on too.

In my GD's case, her mother took her to the police who advised that the chance of obtaining a conviction was very low. They did visit the perp's house and questioned both people. The police were satisfied that a crime had been committed but lack of evidence was the problem.


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## JaniceM (Nov 24, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Bobf, with due respect, you have never had to face this problem personally. I'm assuming that as a boy you were not molested and that you yourself are not a ****** predator. However, I truly doubt that the females in your family have all gotten off scot free.
> 
> I have not had any psychologically scarring experiences either but my intellectually disabled grand daughter has. There are plenty of opportunistic men, sometimes as in my GD's case, assisted by a female partner, who take advantage of vulnerability of young women. When the man is in a position of power over the young women, e.g. a Hollywood producer, *some of them behave as is the woman is theirs for the taking.* And not just young women either. It is less common but young men are preyed on too.



And another word that applies:  _entitlement.  _


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## applecruncher (Nov 24, 2017)

From the TV show "Mad Men"......this scene would be 1961. (But I remember crap similar to this in offices in the early-mid 70s)


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## Camper6 (Nov 24, 2017)

Lon said:


> I know it's been going on for years and will continue as long as there are men and women on this planet but what good is it to have the media continue to hype it? It was only yesterday that I had some lady pinch my butt in the elevator. What should I do?



Smile.


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## Warrigal (Nov 24, 2017)

You all know that I don't like guns but this is one situation I endorse concealed carry. A small but deadly derringer would do. Or a taser.


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## applecruncher (Nov 24, 2017)

*1971 *- I worked in Personnel (before "HR") in a very large corporation. "Jokes" such a the following were common, experially when walking from the office thru the factory (to get to the cafeteria):

_Knock-knock
Me: Who's there?
Emerson
Me: Emerson who?
Emersome nice boobs ya got. _

*1973*:  Worked at an architectural firm.  Some of the men had nude female calendars on walls of their cubicles.

_"Hey, AC. If I told you that you had a great body would you hold it against me?" _

*1977 - *went to work for state govt....the atmosphere changed.  There might have been ****** comments, but I didn't hear about it.

*1991 - *The Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill hearings.  Things change a lot, but maybe people were just more careful.


OTOH, I also remember this case.  An executive was fired for retelling a racy Seinfeld scene. He sued and won $26M.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/16/business/fi-13074


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## BobF (Nov 24, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Bobf, with due respect, you have never had to face this problem personally. I'm assuming that as a boy you were not molested and that you yourself are not a ****** predator. However, I truly doubt that the females in your family have all gotten off scot free.
> 
> I have not had any psychologically scarring experiences either but my intellectually disabled grand daughter has. There are plenty of opportunistic men, sometimes as in my GD's case, assisted by a female partner, who take advantage of vulnerability of young women. When the man is in a position of power over the young women, e.g. a Hollywood producer, some of them behave as if the woman is theirs for the taking. And not just young women either. It is less common but young men are preyed on too.
> 
> In my GD's case, her mother took her to the police who advised that the chance of obtaining a conviction was very low. They did visit the perp's house and questioned both people. The police were satisfied that a crime had been committed but lack of evidence was the problem.



One thing I do dislike and I have made my point several times now.   Making charges with no evidence is also a wrong thing to do.   And that is what I keep posting about.   Have no proofs, then hold your hateful tongue and hope the guilty will be caught some day.    Destroying a politicians career or by posting things that can not be proven about some one is *WRONG.   *So first make sure you prove what you post and be ready to go to court to help the innocent ones get protection in the future.

For my family I believe all have survived and any that messed with my daughter may now wish he had not.    She sure did get some special training while in the service.   I have never heard her complain about anyone, male or female, when sex could be the topic.   I believe she would make the offenders very sorry for attempting to push her on sex.

With out proofs nothing should change hands publicly.   Tell the police as you have done.   That is likely to become part of a police record and in future it will add up to evidence of the persons wrong doing.

We do hope that more folks will learn to carry arms for self defense.   Similar to the Baptist church shootings, if any carried inside they did not show it but armed neighbor came after the shooter and at least drove him away from the church.

Now the Vegas shooter had all legal guns as they would not shoot at machine gun rates as long as he held the trigger back.   They had been set to fire only each time the trigger is pulled.   But he knew of a way to trick the gun so that the recoil would push the gun back and the recovery would also pull the trigger and much faster than a person could pull the trigger and have the strength to do so.   I am assuming the gun control folks in the Congress will see that those attachments will be declared illegal also.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 24, 2017)

An extremely sharp but narrow and thin blade would work well in the situation. Slide it in between two ribs, and you're free from harassment.

I'm thinking something on the order of a dagger, but maybe a switchblade would be better in terms of convenience.


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## Warrigal (Nov 24, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> An extremely sharp but narrow and thin blade would work well in the situation. Slide it in between two ribs, and you're free from harassment.
> 
> I'm thinking something on the order of a dagger, but maybe a switchblade would be better in terms of convenience.



:lol: The worst I ever had to cope with was the eager attentions of a few teenage boys who like to grab girls from behind, pinning our arms to our sides. It was pretty harmless but a stiletto heel was sufficient to discourage any repeats.

As an adult woman I was fortunately never in the position of having an male employer who had any power over me. For casual encounters with lecherous men, which were few, a steely death stare seemed to suffice. BUT I WAS VERY FORTUNATE. Many women has a very different history and as they begin to open up we see another world, a world of humiliation and pain. That world is very real. A lesser number of men know the same pain and humiliation and are now feeling empowered to speak out  as well.



> Bobf wrote: Have no proofs, then hold your hateful tongue and hope the guilty will be caught some day



Bobf, this is, in your words, a hateful attitude. A person who is injured but cannot prove who did it to the level of beyond all reasonable doubt is a person for whom there is no available justice. To tell them to "hold their hateful tongue" is at best insensitive and  at worst quite cruel.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 24, 2017)

Warrigal, I was responding to a post that got erased. I was in joking mode, as was the other poster.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Nov 24, 2017)

IMO the person with no proof should be encouraged to come forward and report situations where they felt threatened or uncomfortable.  Coming forward in those situations may not and probably should not result in any sort of disciplinary action towards the accused but it does document a potential problem with that individual.  It also gives the management of a company the opportunity get a feel for the size of the problem in their organization and do some additional training on the topic.


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## Butterfly (Nov 24, 2017)

BobF said:


> Since when has wanting to use our forces, police and judges and honesty, been determined to be dominating the thread.   Nobody, young or old need to put up with all this ****** nonsense and the way to stop it is to bring in the authorities and end all this false accusations.   It is truth and facts and not lies and false accusations that will fix the problem.



So we should just silence those accusers who were afraid to speak out earlier?  Clearly, you have absolutely no idea  of the social and other forces that existed to keep women quiet in the past.  Powerful male harrassers could jeopardize your job, your career, your reputation and even your personal safety.  And the authorities tended to trivialize the accusations, just like you are doing.  "There, there, dear, that man didn't put his hand up your skirt on purpose -- it was an accident or you imagined it or you are making it up.  A man like Mr. Big would never do such a thing."   And the said Mr. Big would come along and say you were just saying these things and you were a slut anyway.  And you'd go back to work and find a pink slip on your desk and soon find out that no one in town would hire a slut that had made such terrible accusations against such a good and philanthropic family man.  And Mr. Big and his enablers would go out to some bar and drink a buncha scotch and laugh about it all.

And as to your preoccupation with the way women dress -- we are not complaining about someone saying we look nice today; it is crude comments and innuendo we are speaking of.  Should we all adopt the burka as a way of dressing just so men don't have to learn any manners or how to be respectful of women?


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## Ruthanne (Nov 24, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> :lol: The worst I ever had to cope with was the eager attentions of a few teenage boys who like to grab girls from behind, pinning our arms to our sides. It was pretty harmless but a stiletto heel was sufficient to discourage any repeats.
> 
> As an adult woman I was fortunately never in the position of having an male employer who had any power over me. For casual encounters with lecherous men, which were few, a steely death stare seemed to suffice. BUT I WAS VERY FORTUNATE. Many women has a very different history and as they begin to open up we see another world, a world of humiliation and pain. That world is very real. A lesser number of men know the same pain and humiliation and are now feeling empowered to speak out  as well.
> 
> ...


Hateful attitude?  I agree Warri, what was he thinking?


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## JaniceM (Nov 24, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> So we should just silence those accusers who were afraid to speak out earlier?  Clearly, you have absolutely no idea  of the social and other forces that existed to keep women quiet in the past.  Powerful male harrassers could jeopardize your job, your career, your reputation and even your personal safety.  And the authorities tended to trivialize the accusations, just like you are doing.  "There, there, dear, that man didn't put his hand up your skirt on purpose -- it was an accident or you imagined it or you are making it up.  A man like Mr. Big would never do such a thing."   And the said Mr. Big would come along and say you were just saying these things and you were a slut anyway.  And you'd go back to work and find a pink slip on your desk and soon find out that no one in town would hire a slut that had made such terrible accusations against such a good and philanthropic family man.  And Mr. Big and his enablers would go out to some bar and drink a buncha scotch and laugh about it all.
> 
> And as to your preoccupation with the way women dress -- we are not complaining about someone saying we look nice today; it is crude comments and innuendo we are speaking of.  Should we all adopt the burka as a way of dressing just so men don't have to learn any manners or how to be respectful of women?



But it's not only a 'past' issue-  as a lot of the negativity here and other forum should show, it can make speaking up 'these days' difficult, too...


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## Ruthanne (Nov 24, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> You all know that I don't like guns but this is one situation I endorse concealed carry. A small but deadly derringer would do. Or a taser.


NM. No one cares anyways.


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## Butterfly (Nov 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO the person with no proof should be encouraged to come forward and report situations where they felt threatened or uncomfortable.  Coming forward in those situations may not and probably should not result in any sort of disciplinary action towards the accused but it does document a potential problem with that individual.  It also gives the management of a company the opportunity get a feel for the size of the problem in their organization and do some additional training on the topic.



Any my question is that what exactly kind of proof would a person have that she/he had been groped?  Or grabbed, or sexually threatened?  Or even raped if the abuser uses a condom and or says the whole thing was consensual and the woman just has morning-after remorse?  It's not like these acts are committed out in public.  Or should a woman have to incur physical serious injuries to prove she has been mistreated?  

In the case of Weinstein, for instance, 60 (SIXTY) women have  come forward.  That's enough for me to be pretty damned sure something has gone on, whether each individual woman has incontrovertible proof or not.


----------



## BobF (Nov 25, 2017)

Again, a number of posters twisting what I have posted and attempting to make it seem I am guilty of ignoring the stress and pain of ****** problems.   That is not so as what I am protesting is the spreading of unproven claims that can destroy a mans life and future career.   Broadcasting unproven and possibly wrong ideas is wrong in itself.

What I have also posted is trying to get the police involved.   Get a start on the records for certain ones that seem to be a problem.   Let those afraid of being 'used' know that others do care and are wanting all the oppressed to stand up and tell the police, or other authorities, know of the stresses and concerns involved.

Those are good ideas and will lead to ending a persons will over another.   A beginning of a truth to prevent future events.   Telling lies or repeating others lies as truth is wrong.   Hearsay is never considered to be truth.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Nov 25, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Any my question is that what exactly kind of proof would a person have that she/he had been groped?  Or grabbed, or sexually threatened?  Or even raped if the abuser uses a condom and or says the whole thing was consensual and the woman just has morning-after remorse?  It's not like these acts are committed out in public.  Or should a woman have to incur physical serious injuries to prove she has been mistreated?
> 
> In the case of Weinstein, for instance, 60 (SIXTY) women have  come forward.  That's enough for me to be pretty damned sure something has gone on, whether each individual woman has incontrovertible proof or not.



I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me out for my comment but here is a little more information for you.  If you have another opinion or point of view on the topic that is fine.

There are three sides to every story and it is not unheard of for a person to claim that they have been groped or molested to make trouble for another person.  I do not feel comfortable with taking the word of one person, with no other evidence, to fire a person or ruin their career.  If multiple people come forward with the same claims and those claims can be investigated then I feel that some punitive action should be taken against the person.  I guess I still believe in the tired old phrase _innocent until proven guilty_.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> But it's not only a 'past' issue-  as a lot of the negativity here and other forum should show, it can make speaking up 'these days' difficult, too...


Yes. Old attitudes die hard.


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## BobF (Nov 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> :lol: The worst I ever had to cope with was the eager attentions of a few teenage boys who like to grab girls from behind, pinning our arms to our sides. It was pretty harmless but a stiletto heel was sufficient to discourage any repeats.
> 
> As an adult woman I was fortunately never in the position of having an male employer who had any power over me. For casual encounters with lecherous men, which were few, a steely death stare seemed to suffice. BUT I WAS VERY FORTUNATE. Many women has a very different history and as they begin to open up we see another world, a world of humiliation and pain. That world is very real. A lesser number of men know the same pain and humiliation and are now feeling empowered to speak out  as well.
> 
> ...



You have misquoted my statement as I am saying 'No proofs.'    Then hold your comments.    Hearsay is never considered to be truth.

At best it is rephrasing possible lies, unproven charges, by another person.

The concerned must be protected by the aware and make sure the police are aware of the concerns.    One effort may not be enough but future efforts, if protested to the police, will bring closer looks down on the suspected guilty one.


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## BobF (Nov 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me out for my comment but here is a little more information for you.  If you have another opinion or point of view on the topic that is fine.
> 
> There are three sides to every story and it is not unheard of for a person to claim that they have been groped or molested to make trouble for another person.  I do not feel comfortable with taking the word of one person, with no other evidence, to fire a person or ruin their career.  If multiple people come forward with the same claims and those claims can be investigated then I feel that some punitive action should be taken against the person.  I guess I still believe in the tired old phrase _innocent until proven guilty_.



Thank you Aunt Bea.   Nice to hear that at least one other than me can see the situation similar to mine.

What is being charged is most serious but no real solution can be found with out the proper authorities helping to find the truth.

I enjoyed reading your post.


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## Sunny (Nov 25, 2017)

> If a man can't keep his hands to himself however she is dressed or  undressed, he should not be allowed out of the house without a  caretaker.



Amen, Radish!

Bob, here's one problem with your readiness to blame the actions of out-of-control men on their victims. Who is to say what is going to turn anyone on?  Maybe for one guy it's women wearing conservative pants suits, sort of like the ones Hilary Clinton prefers?  For another jerk, he was turned on early in life by pictures of Marilyn Monroe in a polka dotted dress; therefore, any woman wearing a garment with polka dots is fair game.

One way to be safe is to require all women in the workplace to wear old-fashioned nuns' habits, but then, there was Sister Philomena back in parochial school....


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

I was just reading on the CBC network (Canada). The Russians think the latest on ****** harassment in the U.S. is a joke.  They have a talk show and they make fun of it.

Even the women think it's a joke.  

I'll try to get a link.


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## RadishRose (Nov 25, 2017)

But she's in trouble if a guy has a foot fetish. Her fault; the burka should have been longer.

If pretty eyes are the fetish, her fault; she should have stayed in the house or worn a blindfold and used a guide dog.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

I was just reading on the CBC network (Canada). The Russians think the  latest on ****** harassment in the U.S. is a joke.  They have a talk  show and they make fun of it.

Even the women think it's a joke.  

I'll try to get a link.

 Dmitry Kiselyov, the Kremlin-friendly  host of a highly watched Sunday night talk show in Russia, recently  suggested the parade of Western women coming forward with allegations  against famous men represents 'an explosive mix of political  correctness' and 'hypocrisy.' (Sergei Karpukhin/Reuters) 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-******-harassment-1.4418275


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## IKE (Nov 25, 2017)

RadishRose.....But she's in trouble if a guy has a foot fetish.[IMG said:
			
		

> https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.simple-dress.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2FS%2FD%2FSDCGC-0023.jpg&f=1[/IMG]


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 25, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Any my question is that what exactly kind of proof would a person have that she/he had been groped?  Or grabbed, or sexually threatened?  Or even raped if the abuser uses a condom and or says the whole thing was consensual and the woman just has morning-after remorse?  It's not like these acts are committed out in public.  Or should a woman have to incur physical serious injuries to prove she has been mistreated?
> 
> In the case of Weinstein, for instance, 60 (SIXTY) women have  come forward.  That's enough for me to be pretty damned sure something has gone on, whether each individual woman has incontrovertible proof or not.



The Weinstein reveal started with a few women no one believed, among them Ashley Judd and Rose McGowan. His behavior continued for decades after he was first reported; for a very long time he had been paying out cash settlements to get rid of his accusers.   

I worked in an office where the women employees were expected to service the men, and they didn't last through their probation period if they refused. It was all part of the corporate culture of aging frat boys. The manager serially slept with his secretaries, making sure his wife found out when he wanted a new secretary to bed. The salesmen and sales managers all did the same thing. The manager, his male employee/friends and the women employees they were having sex with at the time frequently got drunk and had parties in the office during working hours. I was lucky enough to be exempt because I was married at the time, and because the man I worked for was respectful toward women and wasn't part of the culture. He didn't golf with them or drink with them or have sex with the women at work, so they pretty much ignored him. We were more productive than the other departments, so we were allowed to quietly occupy our little corner without being part of what went on around us. That job taught me a lot, mostly about what I would never do. I became adept at spotting frat boy culture in workplaces so I could avoid taking those jobs.

HR was located in a different city, several states away. We never met anyone from that department nor was there any direct communication. The only corporate interface we ever had went through our manager, who was the piggy kind of man I always went out of my way to avoid. When people came to visit from corporate headquarters, we never met them. They played golf with the men from our office, and they were wined and dined away from us. Most of the time they never made an appearance in our office.

It was a long and ongoing pattern, and I'm not sure how any woman who felt harassed would have found a way to make a report.


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## JaniceM (Nov 25, 2017)

IKE said:


> RadishRose.....But she's in trouble if a guy has a foot fetish.[IMG said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 25, 2017)

Photo of woman making sure she isn't responsible for causing men to have impure thoughts.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

When the male members of our species cease to admire the female members of our species , our species will cease to exist.


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## RadishRose (Nov 25, 2017)

The issue is not admiration, nor appreciation, or thoughts.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 25, 2017)

I admire the heck out of some people. That doesn't mean I think I have to grope them, fondle them or talk dirty to them.


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## BobF (Nov 25, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Amen, Radish!
> 
> Bob, here's one problem with your readiness to blame the actions of out-of-control men on their victims. Who is to say what is going to turn anyone on?  Maybe for one guy it's women wearing conservative pants suits, sort of like the ones Hilary Clinton prefers?  For another jerk, he was turned on early in life by pictures of Marilyn Monroe in a polka dotted dress; therefore, any woman wearing a garment with polka dots is fair game.
> 
> One way to be safe is to require all women in the workplace to wear old-fashioned nuns' habits, but then, there was Sister Philomena back in parochial school....



You certainly do not read my posts at all.   Or you would not be posting this nonsense above.

I am not saying that any one claiming to be sexually physically or mentally harassed.

I am saying that spreading lies is wrong and not necessary at all.    Read my recent posts in #62, 72, 75.    I am saying the injured needs to open up, talk to police, get help from those that know how strong truth is and just how dangerous it is for spreading lies about others.    None of my posts have ever blamed the victims not have I reduced the responsibility to put the guilty ones into controlling hands.   

Far too much effort going into false and unproven accusations.     Spreading unproven things to be facts is nothing but lies repeated again and again.


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## Butterfly (Nov 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I'm not sure why you feel the need to call me out for my comment but here is a little more information for you.  If you have another opinion or point of view on the topic that is fine.
> 
> There are three sides to every story and it is not unheard of for a person to claim that they have been groped or molested to make trouble for another person.  I do not feel comfortable with taking the word of one person, with no other evidence, to fire a person or ruin their career.  If multiple people come forward with the same claims and those claims can be investigated then I feel that some punitive action should be taken against the person.  I guess I still believe in the tired old phrase _innocent until proven guilty_.



I didn't mean to call you out, Aunt Bea.  I must have posted the post as a reply to the wrong post.  I meant to take issue with Bob F's apparent idea that women should not speak unless they had incontrovertible proof.  I am sorry I screwed this up.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> The issue is not admiration, nor appreciation, or thoughts.



Well...it is actually. The down side is some just go about it poorly. But it still starts with the attraction . If a man makes / made an unwanted approach, making an issue out of it years later, IMO diminishes the seriousness of an actual offence @ the time....of the offence. 

Instead of sensationalizing these he "offended me" "he disrespected me" 10 years ago, etc. Let's support those actually assaulted when it happens, no matter how influential the offender may be.


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## Butterfly (Nov 25, 2017)

BobF said:


> You certainly do not read my posts at all.   Or you would not be posting this nonsense above.
> 
> I am not saying that any one claiming to be sexually physically or mentally harassed.
> 
> ...


*
*
The problem, Bob, is that you assume the accusers are spreading "lies."  The very great majority of the accusers have absolutely no reason to lie especially at this late date -- the statutes of limitation have long since run on their claims for either criminal or civil action, and once they have gone public they are certainly not able to blackmail the accused.  

And I would point out that "unproven things" are not necessarily lies, as you seem to believe.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Hey Bob, you trying to start a fight here?
> 
> Just in case you're serious, no this behavior is not provoked by the way women dress.  I very much doubt that all the thousands of women reporting being touched (or worse) inappropriately were really dressed like hookers
> at work.
> ...




You are missing the point.  Can you tell me what is the point of dressing that way if they are not trying to attract attention?


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## Warrigal (Nov 25, 2017)

This topic is on the continuum that leads at one end leads to physical violence against women right up to domestic murder of women.
The President of France has apologised for France's shame of one woman being killed every three days. I think the rate in Australia is just about one per day, and we have a much smaller population than France.

Awareness campaigns in Australia send out the message that disrespect for women and girls begins in boyhood and is facilitated by women who tell their daughters that that is just how boys are, and that they don't really mean it. The underlying message is that disrespect doesn't always lead to violence but all violence against women begins with disrespect.

I am very thankful that my father in law made sure his sons always showed respect for women. If the men who are currently facing complaints of past ****** harassment or ****** abuse really had any respect for women they would not be in so much hot water today.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> [/B]
> The problem, Bob, is that you assume the accusers are spreading "lies."  The very great majority of the accusers have absolutely no reason to lie especially at this late date -- the statutes of limitation have long since run on their claims for either criminal or civil action, and once they have gone public they are certainly not able to blackmail the accused.
> 
> And I would point out that "unproven things" are not necessarily lies, as you seem to believe.





 Lie or not..."unproven" means no proof / evidence. And in our judicial system , be it criminal or civil , both are required to some degree to come to prosecution , and result in a finding of guilt or innocence. And again all these "claims" that have no substance , result in the next one going largely ignored. And [that] may be the one that [has] substance / merit. 

I read in one of the other posts about what the Russians think.....sadly i tend to agree with them.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> If a man can't keep his hands to himself however she is dressed or undressed, he should not be allowed out of the house without a caretaker.
> 
> A man should be able and IS able to control himself. No more of this "boys will be boys" crap.



You haven't a clue because you are not a male.  And I don't have a clue because I am not a woman.

However, it's the way nature intended or the human race would have died out years ago.

That's why harems had eunuchs.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You are missing the point.  Can you tell me what is the point of dressing that way if they are not trying to attract attention?





Exactly!   And the attention  they attract may not be from those they [want] to attract......If say Clooney notices / responds...great!....but if it's the ugly fat guy....not so great, and suddenly they [the women] are offended.


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## Warrigal (Nov 25, 2017)

This woman while young was not above enjoying the form of a well proportioned male. I made sure my appreciative gaze (called perving over here) went unnoticed and I kept my hands to myself. A sinewy forearm or a firm jawline was sufficient to capture my attention. 

I imagine every man has similar reactions to a well formed female and modest clothing cannot turn off all interest. All that is being asked is that men refrain from unwanted touching. Leering is not acceptable either and embarrassing comments and catcalls are a big No No. These guidelines underpin respectful relationships between the sexes at work and at social events. Is it too much to ask of men?


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> This woman while young was not above enjoying the form of a well proportioned male. I made sure my appreciative gaze (called perving over here) went unnoticed and I kept my hands to myself. A sinewy forearm or a firm jawline was sufficient to capture my attention.
> 
> I imagine every man has similar reactions to a well formed female and modest clothing cannot turn off all interest. All that is being asked is that men refrain from unwanted touching. Leering is not acceptable either and embarrassing comments and catcalls are a big No No. These guidelines underpin respectful relationships between the sexes at work and at social events. Is it too much to ask of men?




   A woman cannot dictate how a man will react...and women in general have no right to lay down the rules. "Unwanted touching" is indeed assault AT THE TIME of the assault....not ten years later. "leering" and "commenting" in what ever manner is nothing more than perhaps boorish behavior not criminal....or against any rules.


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## tnthomas (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> Exactly!   And the attention  they attract may not be from those they [want] to attract......If say Clooney notices / responds...great!....but if it's the ugly fat guy....not so great, and suddenly they [the women] are offended.



What ugly & fat guy???

Oh yea,

Harvey Weinstein




...the dude has to sneak up on a glass of water!


----------



## AZ Jim (Nov 25, 2017)

BobF represents a view that unfortunately has come to reflect all men's opinions and nothing could be further from the truth.  It is a view that I hope is in it's death throes.  I have more I want to say but I also do not want the ban hammer so I'll leave it at that.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 25, 2017)

I believe that people have the right to lay down the rules.  IMO we need to remove sex and ****** innuendo from advertising, we need to rethink the objectification and display of little girls and young women, we need to have age appropriate sex education in schools that goes well beyond the mechanics of sex and deals with relationships what is and isn't appropriate, etc...

I think it will take a generation or two and millions of funerals before any lasting changes can be made in this area.

After all what can you really do to change a 93 year old bottom pinching President like George H.W. Bush, it's who he is.  Lord knows we all have one in the family that makes a fool of themselves at family gatherings.  Hopefully they will all be replaced with better educated more respectful young people.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

I don’t buy for a moment that men are undisciplined apes, caught in perpetual servitude to raging testosterone. Inappropriate behaviour is a choice, a very poor one. A real man, according to my Sifu, takes responsibility for his actions, and treats women with respect regardless of their apparel. I couldn’t agree more. As for the Russians, they recently passed a law stating that domestic violence toward women no longer exists. Yikes. Putin has been very frank regarding his opinion regarding the 

“weakness” of women. Society has rules regarding behaviour. Some of these rules are set down in the criminal code. They apply to men and women. Men and women both have a right to “lay down the rules” where it pertains to their safety, as well as an expectation of being treated with respect. Men also suffer abuse. Interesting that those who call women out for expecting men to adhere to a certain standard are often quick to invoke widespread blame towards female victims. Why it is so difficult to 

grasp that victims of either gender are reluctant to come forward at the time of abuse when the power dynamic is what it is, is boggling. It reeks of entitlement. If that attitude remains entrenched among the general populace, imagine the narcissism rife among the rich and powerful?


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## tnthomas (Nov 25, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> BobF represents a view that unfortunately has come to reflect all men's opinions and nothing could be further from the truth.  It is a view that I hope is in it's death throes.  I have more I want to say but I also do not want the ban hammer so I'll leave it at that.



Thank you.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that people have the right to lay down the rules.  IMO we need to remove sex and ****** innuendo from advertising, we need to rethink the objectification and display of little girls and young women, we need to have age appropriate sex education in schools that goes well beyond the mechanics of sex and deals with relationships what is and isn't appropriate, etc...
> 
> I think it will take a generation or two and millions of funerals before any lasting changes can be made in this area.
> 
> After all what can you really do to change a 93 year old bottom pinching President like George H.W. Bush, it's who he is.  Lord knows we all have one in the family that makes a fool of themselves at family gatherings.  Hopefully they will all be replaced with better educated more respectful young people.




Yes! My son, 35, would never behave in such a fashion toward any woman, nor would his friends. He is married to a lawyer, very strong lady. He has always treated women as equals rather than sex objects. I think it is important to recognise that many men, not just young men, have the greatest respect toward women.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> A woman cannot dictate how a man will react...and women in general have no right to lay down the rules. "Unwanted touching" is indeed assault AT THE TIME of the assault....not ten years later. "leering" and "commenting" in what ever manner is nothing more than perhaps boorish behavior not criminal....or against any rules.


I have every right to lay down rules about how men will interact with me. That is how a man knows my boundaries and what is unwanted touching. I'm not talking about criminality because the law covers that. I am talking about day to day interactions between the sexes.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You are missing the point.  Can you tell me what is the point of dressing that way if they are not trying to attract attention?


I shall tell you a little secret about women. Sometimes, we dress for ourselves, to celebrate our femininity. It isn’t always about men.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 25, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that people have the right to lay down the rules.  IMO we need to remove sex and ****** innuendo from advertising, we need to rethink the objectification and display of little girls and young women, we need to have age appropriate sex education in schools that goes well beyond the mechanics of sex and deals with relationships what is and isn't appropriate, etc...
> 
> I think it will take a generation or two and millions of funerals before any lasting changes can be made in this area.
> 
> After all what can you really do to change a 93 year old bottom pinching President like George H.W. Bush, it's who he is.  Lord knows we all have one in the family that makes a fool of themselves at family gatherings.  Hopefully they will all be replaced with better educated more respectful young people.



Aunt Bea, I hope you're aware that George H.W. Bush had a number of quite public affairs, and he was known to reward the women afterward with excellent public sector jobs. His bottom-pinching didn't suddenly begin when he was 93.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I have every right to lay down rules about how men will interact with me. That is how a man knows my boundaries and what is unwanted touching. I'm not talking about criminality because the law covers that. I am talking about day to day interactions between the sexes.


I concur.


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## RadishRose (Nov 25, 2017)

*Regarding Al Franken*

[url]https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/us/politics/al-franken-******-harassment-groping-forcible-kissing.html






[/URL]


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I concur.



Me too. I wouldn't dream of touching a man without his permission and I demand the same respect.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Me too. I wouldn't dream of touching a man without his permission and I demand the same respect.


I don’t touch anyone other than those close to me without asking permission.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I shall tell you a little secret about women. Sometimes, we dress for ourselves, to celebrate our femininity. It isn’t always about men.



Well thanks for that. In a female only society.

Anyway.  All I'm trying to find out is at what stage I am no longer funny and become a pig.

I could never figure that out.  One guy tells a joke and the girls all laugh.   Another guy tells the same joke and he's a pig.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well thanks for that. In a female only society.
> 
> Anyway.  All I'm trying to find out is at what stage I am no longer funny and become a pig.
> 
> I could never figure that out.  One guy tells a joke and the girls all laugh.   Another guy tells the same joke and he's a pig.


Regarding humour, perhaps it depends on the company one keeps. Many times, women prefer to keep a low profile and laugh at inappropriate jokes rather than stir the pot and risk censure. “In a female only society.” I don’t see the relevance —women can celebrate their femininity regardless of the gender of other people. It is about our sovereignty as human beings which is not dependent on the opinion of men. Our self esteem is not predicated on male acceptance.


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## Sunny (Nov 25, 2017)

> You are missing the point.  Can you tell me what is the point of dressing that way if they are not trying to attract attention?



Camper, I am afraid it is you who are missing the point. As I pointed out above, who is to say what mode of dress is going to turn some guy on?  At one time, skirts shorter than ankle length were considered shockingly
improper. Where do we draw the line, and who gets to decide when the line has been crossed?  You, Camper?  Or do we assign a Clothing Propriety Police Squad?

I agree that dressing like a hooker, in extremely provocative clothing, is in ridiculously bad taste. I can even imagine that it might result in a woman being passed up for promotion, if she dresses that way all the time. But it is
NEVER an excuse for ****** assault (verbal or physical) against the woman.  That is just blaming the victim.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I have every right to lay down rules about how men will interact with me. That is how a man knows my boundaries and what is unwanted touching. I'm not talking about criminality because the law covers that. I am talking about day to day interactions between the sexes.





   "I have every right to lay down rules about how men will interact with me. "

   True, when it is physical.....


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> "I have every right to lay down rules about how men will interact with me. "
> 
> True, when it is physical.....


There are guidelines for speech as well, verbal abuse is not acceptable for either sex.


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Camper, I am afraid it is you who are missing the point. As I pointed out above, who is to say what mode of dress is going to turn some guy on?  At one time, skirts shorter than ankle length were considered shockingly
> improper. Where do we draw the line, and who gets to decide when the line has been crossed?  You, Camper?  Or do we assign a Clothing Propriety Police Squad?
> 
> I agree that dressing like a hooker, in extremely provocative clothing, is in ridiculously bad taste. I can even imagine that it might result in a woman being passed up for promotion, if she dresses that way all the time. But it is
> NEVER an excuse for ****** assault (verbal or physical) against the woman.  That is just blaming the victim.


Absolutely.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I shall tell you a little secret about women. Sometimes, we dress for ourselves, to celebrate our femininity. It isn’t always about men.




 That is fine but......no matter the reason for the attire...any red-blooded American man is likely to notice...and  admire at some  level.

 He may not be the one you want to notice, and he my be the buffoon that behaves badly....but that's just life. Holding your collective breath & stamping your feet will never change that.

 Women as a whole need to remember one thing...they are no longer daddy's little girl, and as such, they do not always get their way.


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> There are guidelines for speech as well, verbal abuse is not acceptable for either sex.



So who decides what  "verbal abuse" is ?

If a man says,.. my she has a nice smile...that's OK ? But if he say's damn she has a nice set of boobs...he's a jerk?.....Both remarks are after all compliments. 

And trust me...many / most women would not be offended if George Clooney noticed their boobs.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Anyway.  All I'm trying to find out is at what stage I am no longer funny and become a pig.
> 
> I could never figure that out.  One guy tells a joke and the girls all laugh.   Another guy tells the same joke and he's a pig.



I think we have all had those moments and the best policy is to keep our bawdy jokes, stories and observations to ourselves.

“It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”     - Mark Twain


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Camper, I am afraid it is you who are missing the point. As I pointed out above, who is to say what mode of dress is going to turn some guy on?  At one time, skirts shorter than ankle length were considered shockingly
> improper. Where do we draw the line, and who gets to decide when the line has been crossed?  You, Camper?  Or do we assign a Clothing Propriety Police Squad?
> 
> I agree that dressing like a hooker, in extremely provocative clothing, is in ridiculously bad taste. I can even imagine that it might result in a woman being passed up for promotion, if she dresses that way all the time. But it is
> NEVER an excuse for ****** assault (verbal or physical) against the woman.  That is just blaming the victim.



I'm not talking about ****** assault. And I'm not missing the point either. I'm talking about the message being sent and then don't like the results.

What mode? Females set the mode. Posing for sexy advertising and then complain about it? It's hypocritical.


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## Sassycakes (Nov 25, 2017)

BobF said:


> This touching and whatever by horny men is never the blame for the ladies that dress in seductive clothing and make up and act in teasing ways.   Short and too tight skirts and crossed legs when sitting.   Blouses that are cut all the way to the belt line.   Baiting the males with dress and comments then crying to the management about comments and whistles and touching.   As has recently turned out for one TV broadcaster it seemed almost to be a one way trip to being a millionaire.
> 
> In politics it has been used to reduce one parities strength in the Congress.   Recently the opposing party has had a run on some of their Congressional persons.   So now I expect that political tool for running 'bad' guys out of their jobs may have run its road and will now end.
> 
> ...




I was just wondering if you think it's alright for a man to grope or have a young girl in a room with him while he is naked. If of course she had a very short skirt on and a tight blouse. Would that give him permission because she was dressed provocatively


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> So who decides what  "verbal abuse" is ?
> 
> If a man says,.. my she has a nice smile...that's OK ? But if he say's damn she has a nice set of boobs...he's a jerk?.....Both remarks are after all compliments.
> 
> And trust me...many / most women would not be offended if George Clooney noticed their boobs.



Noticing breasts is one thing, unwarranted personal comments is another.  They are disrespectful. Complimenting a smile is not. Huge difference. As for “verbal abuse,” this goes to both personal boundaries and 


courtesy, rule of thumb, don’t make ****** comments to any woman in a public place, or in private without her permission. Verbal belittling, swearing, etc is unacceptable anywhere. If you are unsure of a woman’s boundaries, ask, she will respect you for it. I recall one of our male sf posters who altered his opinion of what constitutes abuse, spoke up, and earned the respect of many members, both male and female.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Sassycakes said:


> I was just wondering if you think it's alright for a man to grope or have a young girl in a room with him while he is naked. If of course she had a very short skirt on and a tight blouse. Would that give him permission because she was dressed provocatively



I was reading about the same type of setting in one of the cases. She was 16 and said she was o.k. with sex but her objection was that he invited another guy.

So it depends on the circumstances.

No guy should force himself under any circumstances.


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## Warrigal (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Well thanks for that. In a female only society.
> 
> Anyway.  All I'm trying to find out is at what stage I am no longer funny and become a pig.
> 
> I could never figure that out.  One guy tells a joke and the girls all laugh.   Another guy tells the same joke and he's a pig.


Some people are seen as 'creepy' and no-one wants to encourage them by laughing at their blue jokes. And perhaps they aren't really funny or they have been told too often to raise a laugh any more.

If you don't want to be labelled a pig, tread softly and take in the vibes. Self reflection will guide you.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> So who decides what  "verbal abuse" is ?
> 
> If a man says,.. my she has a nice smile...that's OK ? But if he say's damn she has a nice set of boobs...he's a jerk?.....Both remarks are after all compliments.
> 
> And trust me...many / most women would not be offended if George Clooney noticed their boobs.


*eyes roll*


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## rgp (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Noticing breasts is one thing, unwarranted personal comments is another.  They are disrespectful. Complimenting a smile is not. Huge difference. As for “verbal abuse,” this goes to both personal boundaries and
> 
> 
> courtesy, rule of thumb, don’t make ****** comments to any woman in a public place, or in private without her permission. Verbal belittling, swearing, etc is unacceptable anywhere. If you are unsure of a woman’s boundaries, ask, she will respect you for it. I recall one of our male sf posters who altered his opinion of what constitutes abuse, spoke up, and earned the respect of many members, both male and female.




  So now you want to control freedom of speech ? [He] has every right to say what he likes [she] has every right to like it or not....and that is pretty much where it ends.

Women just luv to send mixed messages..I remember when i was a teen, I asked a girl if I could kiss her. She said never ask, just  kiss. Now in light of all this,... the demand is always ask .....so which is it ?

Later on in adult life I dated a woman [30 ish] that wanted to play pretend rape, nearly every time we ..[well you know]. I tried, but it just wasn't {me} . We broke up , because of that....she said that I was boring. So just how the heck does a guy know what is acceptable as a pass, until he makes the pass, &  she responds? 

If a guy makes an unwanted advance ?...tell him no. If he stops ?...turn the page , go on with your life. If he doesn't ?...whole new situation.


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## Sunny (Nov 25, 2017)

> If a man says,.. my she has a nice smile...that's OK ?



Not really, unless she's working as a model for toothpaste commercials. I don't think remarks about a co-worker's personal appearance are really appropriate, and I don't think women come to work in order to hear
that they have a cute nose.

Probably the way for a man to judge if he's being offensive is to ask himself if this would be an appropriate comment to make to another man at work.  If not, it's not appropriate for a women either.


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## tnthomas (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> So now you want to control freedom of speech ? [He] has every right to say what he likes [she] has every right to like it or not....and that is pretty much where it ends.
> 
> Women just luv to send mixed messages..I remember when i was a teen, I asked a girl if I could kiss her. She said never ask, just  kiss. Now in light of all this,... the demand is always ask .....so which is it ?
> 
> ...



Get serious.   First of all, real adult men understand that their rights end where another person's begins.  

 How about if she kicks you in the groin, I guess that you have the right to "like it, or not".


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

rgp said:


> So now you want to control freedom of speech ? [He] has every right to say what he likes [she] has every right to like it or not....and that is pretty much where it ends.
> 
> Women just luv to send mixed messages..I remember when i was a teen, I asked a girl if I could kiss her. She said never ask, just  kiss. Now in light of all this,... the demand is always ask .....so which is it ?
> 
> ...



Freedom without accountability seems perilously close to anarchy. In a civilised society, respect is paramount. I can’t speak for everyone, but I don’t have verbally abusive people in my life. As for mixed messages, I think in present day, many unpleasant situations can be avoided if a person asks permission before making a pass of any kind. Protects both parties involved. As for the pretend rape stuff, I don’t think you were boring at all. She was into kink, you weren’t.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> View attachment 45135
> 
> Photo of woman making sure she isn't responsible for causing men to have impure thoughts.


That's the exact reason for that outfit. Check it out.


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## JaniceM (Nov 25, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Get serious.   First of all, real adult men understand that their rights end where another person's begins.
> 
> How about if she kicks you in the groin, I guess that you have the right to "like it, or not".



That's one thing I'd been thinking since this topic came up (before here)-  hesitating to comment, because in general I oppose violence, but I'd bet a big reason this is so common these days is because the skuzzier members of the male population (the minority, I believe) KNOW women no longer have the prerogative of standing up for themselves (ourselves).  It's like pushing as far as one can get, with 'heh, there's nothing you can do about it.
It came to mind awhile back when channel-surfing, happened to see a few of those very old black&white classic movies-  if a guy 'got fresh' the women would simply slap him one.  Do that these days and would be looking at handcuffs.  

Personally I'm having an awful time because I don't know what to do-  have been tolerating LANDLORD's 'behaviors' and the behaviors have been ESCALATING.  So 'powerlessness' in this situation extends to the concern that if I take any action I'd end up without a place to live.


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## Camper6 (Nov 25, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Some people are seen as 'creepy' and no-one wants to encourage them by laughing at their blue jokes. And perhaps they aren't really funny or they have been told too often to raise a laugh any more.
> 
> If you don't want to be labelled a pig, tread softly and take in the vibes. Self reflection will guide you.



Really?  I was an office manager and we had very nice female staff.

My friend worked with me for the same firm.

We were at a party.  I remarked that no one at our company ever made passes at the female staff.

His wife replied.  "How boring".

See what I mean?


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> That's one thing I'd been thinking since this topic came up (before here)-  hesitating to comment, because in general I oppose violence, but I'd bet a big reason this is so common these days is because the skuzzier members of the male population (the minority, I believe) KNOW women no longer have the prerogative of standing up for themselves (ourselves).  It's like pushing as far as one can get, with 'heh, there's nothing you can do about it.
> It came to mind awhile back when channel-surfing, happened to see a few of those very old black&white classic movies-  if a guy 'got fresh' the women would simply slap him one.  Do that these days and would be looking at handcuffs.
> 
> Personally I'm having an awful time because I don't know what to do-  have been tolerating LANDLORD's 'behaviors' and the behaviors have been ESCALATING.  So 'powerlessness' in this situation extends to the concern that if I take any action I'd end up without a place to live.



How awful for you! Is moving at some point an option? Is it possible to access some free legal advice on what exactly your rights are?


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## Shalimar (Nov 25, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> That's the exact reason for that outfit. Check it out.


Lmao.


----------



## Ruthanne (Nov 25, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I shall tell you a little secret about women. Sometimes, we dress for ourselves, to celebrate our femininity. It isn’t always about men.


Yes, that's so true!  I wore hot pants at one time and liked the look.
What about nudist colonies?  They don't rape each other there to my knowledge.  It's the culture they like.


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## Warrigal (Nov 25, 2017)

How long ago did that woman make that facetious remark?

I wouldn't take it as either encouragement or a serious response if I were you.


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## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> Yes, that's so true!  I wore hot pants at one time and liked the look.
> What about nudist colonies?  They don't rape each other there to my knowledge.  It's the culture they like.


Rape is about violence and control, not sex.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 26, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Rape is about violence and control, not sex.


I know.  My comment was kind of scattered and it's hard for me to explain what I meant entirely.


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## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> I know.  My comment was kind of scattered and it's hard for me to explain what I meant entirely.


No worries. This subject is a trigger for many.


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## BobF (Nov 26, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> BobF represents a view that unfortunately has come to reflect all men's opinions and nothing could be further from the truth.  It is a view that I hope is in it's death throes.  I have more I want to say but I also do not want the ban hammer so I'll leave it at that.



I am asking that all such offenses be brought to the police and reported.   That in itself will start to make a case.   Proofs will only come from those investigations and not from others restating those undocumented and unrecognized to be crimes, there fore lies about other folks.   It seems to be starting to happen. 

From these few wins I would hope the women will learn that as soon as such happens they will get the authorities into the stream of knowledge and not think they are hiding by not talking for 20 or 30 years while the guilty keep on taking advantage of others. 

I certainly hope my ideas are kept and used by others as well.

Say something for real and honest and you won't have to worry about the 'ban hammer'.


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## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

BobF.  You know they don't report the cases until their careers are established.

Then they hold it as an insurance policy.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Really?  I was an office manager and we had very nice female staff.
> 
> My friend worked with me for the same firm.
> 
> ...



You are using one probably drunk and likely to have been joking woman as proof that's what all women want?

Surely even you realize you are being disingenuous.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> No worries. This subject is a trigger for many.



This subject is only a trigger for misogynists. 

Normal people, those of us who are not misogynists, are thinking these guys like Weinstein and Rose are finally getting what they've deserved for a long time. They knew they were out of line all along but they probably thought they could continue to get away with it.


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## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Get serious.   First of all, real adult men understand that their rights end where another person's begins.
> 
> How about if she kicks you in the groin, I guess that you have the right to "like it, or not".



Sorry, you're wrong...You are comparing speech, a comment....to a physical attack.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with what you say to me or I say back to you.

Freedom of speech is about the government not being allowed to censor the speech of individuals and the press, or to prohibit public gatherings. Even that has limitations because we have laws against some forms of speech.

I'll quote Wikipedia, which has a pretty good freedom of speech entry:



> Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as  being absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in _On Liberty_,  which suggests that: "the only purpose for which power can be  rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against  his will, is to prevent harm to others.[SUP]"[/SUP]  The idea of the "offense principle" is also used in the justification  of speech limitations, describing the restriction on forms of expression  deemed offensive to society, considering factors such as extent,  duration, motives of the speaker, and ease with which it could be  avoided.


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## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Freedom of speech has nothing to do with what you say to me or I say back to you.
> 
> Freedom of speech is about the government not being allowed to censor the speech of individuals and the press, or to prohibit public gatherings. Even that has limitations because we have laws against some forms of speech.
> 
> I'll quote Wikipedia, which has a pretty good freedom of speech entry:




 If your addressing me?...I really don't care what wiki says....a comment & a physical attack are two entirely different things.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> So now you want to control freedom of speech ? [He] has every right to say what he likes [she] has every right to like it or not....and that is pretty much where it ends.



Silly me. I thought you might remember your own words.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

There are many forms of abuse. Physical, ******, emotional/verbal. Many of my clients tell me that emotional abuse, expressed in the form of words has every bit as much a traumatic effect on them as other forms. Words have power. They can be used to frighten, demean, humiliate, steal a person’s self esteem, their capacity to make healthy choices, make them doubt their reality/sanity. In extreme forms, brainwashing can occur.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> Sorry, you're wrong...You are comparing speech, a comment....to a physical attack.


Mine if I ask your age?


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> You are using one probably drunk and likely to have been joking woman as proof that's what all women want?
> 
> Surely even you realize you are being disingenuous.



No. You can try to slough it off if you want but she doesn't drink and she was dead serious and I was shocked.

Oh by the way.  Her husband worked with me and I kept telling him not to put any hands on the staff.

He was fond of going up behind them and giving them a neck massage.

Now let me ask you a question.  

That famous picture of the sailor kissing the nurse when the Japanese won the war.

He just grabbed her and kissed her.  Is that ****** harassment?

We might even have had a thread on it before.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> No. You can try to slough it off if you want but she doesn't drink and she was dead serious and I was shocked.
> 
> Oh by the way.  Her husband worked with me and I kept telling him not to put any hands on the staff.
> 
> ...



Your co-workers wife was obviously not very bright, or maybe she lived in a cave.

If the nurse had minded and brought charges, it could have been considered assault. Those were special circumstances, but I would bet if he tried that on another day in her workplace, he would have walked away with a broken nose.

Why do you guys keep digging up weird scenarios to justify your cro-magnon attitudes?


----------



## tnthomas (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> Sorry, you're wrong...You are comparing speech, a comment....to a physical attack.



Not comparing those two actions, I'm trying to get your attention so that you might be able to put yourself "in their shoes", and illustrate the crass nature of your "like it, or not" comment.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> BobF.  You know they don't report the cases until their careers are established.
> 
> Then they hold it as an insurance policy.


Wow, just wow.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Your co-workers wife was obviously not very bright, or maybe she lived in a cave.
> 
> If the nurse had minded and brought charges, it could have been considered assault. Those were special circumstances, but I would bet if he tried that on another day in her workplace, he would have walked away with a broken nose.
> 
> Why do you guys keep digging up weird scenarios to justify your cro-magnon attitudes?



Glad you asked. Because we can't figure woman out and we still have the cro magnon in our genes.

If the girl had minded? Now that's what I can't figure out. It's o.k. to try? Just take a chance? 

Oh oh the wife was bright. Don't try to excuse it. Plenty of women think the same way.

The guy kissing the nurse. ? A pig taking advantage of the situation. All kinds of guys do that.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Wow, just wow.



Sure seems like it doesn't it?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Not comparing those two actions, I'm trying to get your attention so that you might be able to put yourself "in their shoes", and illustrate the crass nature of your "like it, or not" comment.




 Well,....you did make that comparison , and the two do not compare. 

 OK, I'm crass in your opinion. So what...it is still like it or not. Thanks for proving my point, your comment doesn't matter to me . I don't like or dislike it, it just doesn't matter. 

Some people can be crass as you suggest I am, but some can also be overly sensitive as well.


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> Mine if I ask your age?



68....why?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Silly me. I thought you might remember your own words.



Explain please....?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

From another N/G I follow..........

   ""You do realize we're being played both ways by the feminist ladies, right? One day, they're daring hedonists and pioneering ****** adventurers, able to kick ass with any man. The next day, they're fragile prudes who are permanently traumatized by a pat on the ass. This is called a scam."

- Stephen Thomas


----------



## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2017)

Something the Red Pill boys need to remember ...

These women have fathers, brothers, boyfriends, husbands, and friends that might just decide to take the law into their own hands, and have the means to do so.


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Something the Red Pill boys need to remember ...
> 
> These women have fathers, brothers, boyfriends, husbands, and friends that might just decide to take the law into their own hands, and have the means to do so.



 And the [offender] may be good at [defense] as well ?...


----------



## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> And the [offender] may be good at [defense] as well ?...



The point is, men who do these kinds of things are generally weaklings. They can't stand up to a _real_ motivated man. Sure, they might be celebs, they might inspire awe in their underlings, but put them up against a p-d-off guy, and they'll wilt.


----------



## SifuPhil (Nov 26, 2017)

Besides ... 

... they might not see you coming.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> Explain please....?



I quoted you in the post you now want me to explain. Good grief.


----------



## AZ Jim (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> 68....why?


You reflect attitude usually seen on much younger and immature men.  My opinion of course.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

To be honest, we don't know if it's male. No disclosure of any kind in its profile.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 26, 2017)

Today a story has broken that a popular Australian TV presenter from earlier times  repeatedly harassed female staffers with his hands and ****** innuendo.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...of-******-harassment-indecent-assault/9188070

 It was an open secret in the industry, the women did complain but he was earning the network big dollars. They received no support back then but they have not forgotten the humiliation. Now they are being vocal, not because they are conniving feminists, but because, as Shakespeare put it -



> There is a tide in the affairs of men,
> which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.



In short, now is the time to speak up because people are listening right now. 
The tide has risen for many women in the western countries.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> To be honest, we don't know if it's male. No disclosure of any kind in its profile.
> 
> View attachment 45197



The picture?  The gender?   What has that picture got to do with anything at all?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I quoted you in the post you now want me to explain. Good grief.




   Well good grief I didn't notice the  quote.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Today a story has broken that a popular Australian TV presenter from earlier times  repeatedly harassed female staffers with his hands and ****** innuendo.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-...of-******-harassment-indecent-assault/9188070
> 
> ...


 
Aaargh! One of the complainers is posing in a picture with him, she is sitting on his lap and he has his hand on her thigh.

She has a big smile on her face.  Please give me a break.  The time to speak up was then not now.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 26, 2017)

You've never heard of putting on a brave face?
Is that one photo all that you absorbed from the article?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> You reflect attitude usually seen on much younger and immature men.  My opinion of course.



Attitude...?....my attitude is only that women wanted women's lib, be treated equally to men...now they are, and they whine about that.

I used to be very careful with my language around women...but now I don't really care. They wanted to be treated equally to a man, they started cussing like a San Diego sailor on shore leave...great, I'll say what I please...if it offends them?....so be it.

A few years ago I approached a neighbor [female] about 60ish approx my age about a couple of houses recently selling on the street....first thing I heard was well I hope those fu**ing teenagers are gone...and it didn't stop there . So after our conversation, before i walked on I said BTW you have a nice fu**in' lawn...she didn't bat an eye...said thanks......LOL


----------



## AZ Jim (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> Attitude...?....my attitude is only that women wanted women's lib, be treated equally to men...now they are, and they whine about that.
> 
> I used to be very careful with my language around women...but now I don't really care. They wanted to be treated equally to a man, they started cussing like a San Diego sailor on shore leave...great, I'll say what I please...if it offends them?....so be it.
> 
> A few years ago I approached a neighbor [female] about 60ish approx my age about a couple of houses recently selling on the street....first thing I heard was well I hope those fu**ing teenagers are gone...and it didn't stop there . So after our conversation, before i walked on I said BTW you have a nice fu**in' lawn...she didn't bat an eye...said thanks......LOL


Yeah?  Ok....


----------



## Smiling Jane (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> Well good grief I didn't notice the  quote.



Normal people apologize when they're wrong instead of acting like butts.


----------



## Falcon (Nov 26, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> No. You can try to slough it off if you want but she doesn't drink and she was dead serious and I was shocked.
> 
> Oh by the way.  Her husband worked with me and I kept telling him not to put any hands on the staff.
> 
> ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 That famous picture of the sailor kissing the nurse when the Japanese won the war.

Please tell me  which war was that ?


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

Falcon said:


> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> That famous picture of the sailor kissing the nurse when the Japanese won the war.
> 
> Please tell me  which war was that ?


I wondered the same thing, Falcon.


----------



## RadishRose (Nov 26, 2017)




----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> You've never heard of putting on a brave face?
> Is that one photo all that you absorbed from the article?



Nonsense talk . The smile is too genuine and indicates approval. Why do make excuses like that.?

You are just proving my point. The other picture was blocked out.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> View attachment 45199




It it was a long time ago. When Japan beat Russia. :love_heart:


----------



## Falcon (Nov 26, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> It it was a long time ago. When Japan beat Russia. :love_heart:



  And a sailor  kissed a nurse  in THAT war also?   Will wonders never cease.?


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Falcon said:


> And a sailor  kissed a nurse  in THAT war also?   Will wonders never cease.?



That was the first documented incident of time travelnthego:


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

Just wondering. Is a wolf whistle harassment or is it protected under the First Amendment ?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Normal people apologize when they're wrong instead of acting like butts.



OK, fine...one more time....show me the quote, and where I'm wrong. If you can I will admit it.

"acting like butts." So now you want to start with personal attacks? Insults ?....and yet you want to scold "men" for their remarks...interesting.


----------



## JaniceM (Nov 26, 2017)

rgp said:


> OK, fine...one more time....show me the quote, and where I'm wrong. If you can I will admit it.
> 
> "acting like butts." So now you want to start with personal attacks? Insults ?....*and yet you want to scold "men" for their remarks...interesting.*



Is that any worse or different than you blaming _all_ women because _some_ (from one of your previous posts) talk with their vocal-chords dragging in the gutter?


----------



## rgp (Nov 26, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> Is that any worse or different than you blaming _all_ women because _some_ (from one of your previous posts) talk with their vocal-chords dragging in the gutter?



Yes, I never made any personal attacks. jane is bitching about comments made by men to women...then she calls me a butt....

And doesn't her assertion of off color comments [by men] have an _all _men connotation to it as well ?


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

I find it appalling and amazing that all the blame here goes to males and that females don't share part of the blame even if it's just a tiny part?

When I point out some examples I get excuses like putting on a good face?

Are we that naive?


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 26, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> The point is, men who do these kinds of things are generally weaklings. They can't stand up to a _real_ motivated man. Sure, they might be celebs, they might inspire awe in their underlings, but put them up against a p-d-off guy, and they'll wilt.



Why would they have to do that?

The women don't complain until twenty years later.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 26, 2017)

Why would the negative behaviour of a few, reflect badly on all men? Many males are wonderful individuals who treat women with respect. My fiancé, Sifuphil, comes to mind, some others on this site: Pappy, Amomaly, Tnthomas, Bob from Ma. Others abound, this is just a sampling of the awesome guys on SF.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Nonsense talk . The smile is too genuine and indicates approval. Why do make excuses like that.?
> 
> You are just proving my point. The other picture was blocked out.



The smile is for the camera. The eyes tell a different story. They are not smiling. They indicate embarrassment.
Also, look at the tension in her right leg. She is trying not to sit her full weight on him. 
My guess she couldn't wait to get off him.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> The smile is for the camera. The eyes tell a different story. They are not smiling. They indicate embarrassment.
> Also, look at the tension in her right leg. She is trying not to sit her full weight on him.
> My guess she couldn't wait to get off him.


I agree. The “tells” are there if a person chooses to look.


----------



## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Why would they have to do that?



Why would _who_ have to do _what_? 



> The women don't complain until twenty years later.



Because many women have been gaslighted to a fair-thee-well.


----------



## BobF (Nov 27, 2017)

Just came from an  Australian forum and they think the folks in the US are strange, and increasingly so.



> More and more men are being named and perhaps shamed. Really I feel the whole subject is just getting way out of hand.
> 
> Hands up all those men who have  draped an arm on some females  shoulders, stroked their hand,patted their back, or bottom, touched  their knees, etc, look out you may be next on the list for Harassment.
> That’s how stupid I think it is getting, what with Richard Branson,  now Don Bourke, next it will  be one of our Politicians. I can’t help  but feel these women are  naming men   hoping for some financial  handout.





> I could  be next,  I’ve put my arms round girls when I was young,   Every saturday night at the “Palais du danse”,  they never complained at  the time though,  I even took a few home and kissed them on the way.  I  must be a sex mad pervert and should be gaoled.  On the other hand they  won’t bother suing me,  I’ve no money
> 
> You are quite right betty,  they way they are carrying on is ridiculous,
> Once many years ago i was shopping for crockery in a market,   opposite the pots and pans stall was a greengrocers,  three young women  were walking past and the greengrocer held up a cucumber and said  “What  about one of these girls?”  They all laughed,  one of the girls said  “cheeky sod”  they all laughed again and went on their way.  I bet  nowadays a bloke couldn’t even hold a cucumber to sell to a customer  without the screams and threats





> Rediculous isn’t a strong enough word but it iss the best I can conjure  up without swearing horribly Of course there would be some tast went to  far  too far ,but I seriously doubt that most had evil intentionsRediculous isn’t a strong enough word but it is the best I can conjure  up without swearing horribly Of course there would be some tast went to  far  too far ,but I seriously doubt that most had evil intentions Rediculous isn’t a strong enough word but it is the best I can conjure  up without swearing horribly Of course there would be some tast went to  far  too far ,but I seriously doubt that most had evil intentions





> A close friend told me a few years ago of an incident with a tv person.  At the time I dismissed it as a rumour but today in the paper is the  same info. Unfortunately there are scumbags out there and at last they  will be stopped. My daughter worked once with a man who made loud  moo-ing sounds every time he passed her desk. After some time of this  she spoke quietly to HR but nothing was done. Eventually one of the  oldest employees saw what was happening and spoke to him outside work  and it never happened again. I don’t mean this was anything ****** but  it was distressing in the end and should have been stopped sooner



I do agree with those folks.   This has gone far to far and has become very ridiculous.    The way all these confessions are popping up at inopportune times is enough to make one wonder.    I am glad to see that others do see the US efforts to be a bit funny and out of line.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> The smile is for the camera. The eyes tell a different story. They are not smiling. They indicate embarrassment.
> Also, look at the tension in her right leg. She is trying not to sit her full weight on him.
> My guess she couldn't wait to get off him.



I doubt a jury would see it the way you do.  You are making up stories.  She had no obligation to sit there in the first place.  That's not an advertising picture.  That's an informal photo.

And by the way.  I can't find the pictures anymore.  They must have been deleted.


----------



## Knight (Nov 27, 2017)

Work place ****** harrassment is not new just the amount of people coming forward now way beyond the time frame in the EEO guidelines for filing a complaint. Their motives/choice like their original motives/choice are like most things in life they change over time. 

Condemning the person that made a choice to not file a complaint in a timely manner wrongly places blame. The perpetrator is and always will be the person to blame. I suppose an arguement could be made that if a complaint was filed by the 1st. person that might have stopped future incidents. Key word is might. Weighing proving and losing against what happens if you lose is a choice each person makes for their own welfare. Future incidents then become 1st. person each time. 


Will ****** harrassment ever be stopped? The EEOC guidelines were put in place in 1964 and there are lawyers dedicated to filing cases. I think history shows it's on the side of not stopping.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Why would _who_ have to do _what_?
> 
> 
> 
> Because many women have been gaslighted to a fair-thee-well.



Care to expound on that?  I'm not familiar with the words you are using.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Knight said:


> Work place ****** harrassment is not new just the amount of people coming forward now way beyond the time frame in the EEO guidelines for filing a complaint. Their motives/choice like their original motives/choice are like most things in life they change over time.
> 
> Condemning the person that made a choice to not file a complaint in a timely manner wrongly places blame. The perpetrator is and always will be the person to blame. I suppose an arguement could be made that if a complaint was filed by the 1st. person that might have stopped future incidents. Key word is might. Weighing proving and losing against what happens if you lose is a choice each person makes for their own welfare. Future incidents then become 1st. person each time.
> 
> ...



But they are not laying charges.  They are merely complaining now.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Care to expound on that?  I'm not familiar with the words you are using.


Warrigal started a thread re gaslighting.


----------



## rgp (Nov 27, 2017)

Knight said:


> Work place ****** harrassment is not new just the amount of people coming forward now way beyond the time frame in the EEO guidelines for filing a complaint. Their motives/choice like their original motives/choice are like most things in life they change over time.
> 
> Condemning the person that made a choice to not file a complaint in a timely manner wrongly places blame. The perpetrator is and always will be the person to blame. I suppose an arguement could be made that if a complaint was filed by the 1st. person that might have stopped future incidents. Key word is might. Weighing proving and losing against what happens if you lose is a choice each person makes for their own welfare. Future incidents then become 1st. person each time.
> 
> ...



 The reason ****** harassment  [what ever it is] will never stop is due to the fact that what ever it is, is different too everyone. And it leaves behind _NO_ proof......Particularly after many years have passed.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I agree. The “tells” are there if a person chooses to look.



This is what women come up with for proof?  

The eyes are not smiling?  Post the picture again.  I'll enlarge it.  Admit the truth.  She was doing it willingly.  

I'm sorry Shalimar men are not good at 'tells' if that's what you are depending on.

It's kind of gobbledegook science.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Warrigal started a thread re gaslighting.



Why? Just give me a simple explanation.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Guess what.  I think some of these complaints are politically motivated.  They come out at a time when an election is being held.

But no.  That would be fudging the issue.  No woman would ever do that.


----------



## AZ Jim (Nov 27, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> Why would the negative behaviour of a few, reflect badly on all men? Many males are wonderful individuals who treat women with respect. My fiancé, Sifuphil, comes to mind, some others on this site: Pappy, Amomaly, Tnthomas, Bob from Ma. Others abound, this is just a sampling of the awesome guys on SF.


Hey!  You forget anyone?


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> When I point out some examples I get excuses like putting on a good face?
> 
> Are we that naive?



Yes, Pet, you are. It is a good sign. Your innocence becomes you.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Care to expound on that?  I'm not familiar with the words you are using.


I was unfamiliar too but I found an article that explains 'gaslighting' and have posted it as a new thread.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/33116-Gaslighting-how-it-works


----------



## Knight (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> But they are not laying charges.  They are merely complaining now.



HUH ? No mention of charges in my post so what are you trying to say? 

I think the process is a person has to file a complaint within a certain time frame. The complaint is investigated. Filing charges comes after "IF" the allegation is proven to be true. 

I don't know what motivates all of them now. Easy though to suspect the motivation  when politicians are  being identified.  

About the sailor after Japan lost the war. Times square wasn't the nurses work place.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

I agree  that men are not good at reading female body language. All too often they miss cues that signal a negative reaction and take silence as consent or a smile as encouragement. Never having been socialised the way little girls have been, they misread women, even after years of living with one.

Women, on the other hand can read women very well. We recognise hidden emotion because we have all been there. Trust me.

I'll look for the photo again but I did enlarge it myself. That is when I picked up the tension in her leg. In that position myself I would have been rigid as a board.


----------



## SifuPhil (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> It's kind of gobbledegook science.



Ask any professional poker player, "cold reading" magician or martial artist about that.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Knight said:


> HUH ? No mention of charges in my post so what are you trying to say?
> 
> I think the process is a person has to file a complaint within a certain time frame. The complaint is investigated. Filing charges comes after "IF" the allegation is proven to be true.
> 
> ...



Neither was it his. So are you saying nurses out of the workplace are fair game?


----------



## rgp (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> This is what women come up with for proof?
> 
> The eyes are not smiling?  Post the picture again.  I'll enlarge it.  Admit the truth.  She was doing it willingly.
> 
> ...




 What picture is it you all are talking about ?


----------



## tnthomas (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> This is what women come up with for proof?
> 
> The eyes are not smiling?  Post the picture again.  I'll enlarge it.  Admit the truth.  She was doing it willingly.
> 
> ...



"Some" men may not be, but some are.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

I think the exuberant sailor kissing a nurse in the euphoria of the declaration pf peace is a total red herring. He might just as likely have grabbed an old lady and swung her off the ground in a circle. Neither act would be held against him at that moment but a week later he might have been arrested for doing the same thing.

The sailor and the dancing man in this footage are expressing the same relief and joy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij9LkYCSujg


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> This is what women come up with for proof?
> 
> The eyes are not smiling?  Post the picture again.  I'll enlarge it.  Admit the truth.  She was doing it willingly.
> 
> ...


I sincerely hope you are not suggesting to a psychologist who has worked as a profiler in the past, that her science is gobbledegook science? As for your opinion re the inability of men to read tells, I beg to differ. The profiler who trained me was male.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

This is for Camper.

The man in this photo has his hand on a woman and her eyes and body say that it is more than OK.







She is however a little uneasy about the cameras.
His open hand is sending a message to the photographer(s) and his face shows he is ready to defend the lady if necessary.

What do you see?


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I doubt a jury would see it the way you do.  You are making up stories.  She had no obligation to sit there in the first place.  That's not an advertising picture.  That's an informal photo.
> 
> And by the way.  I can't find the pictures anymore.  They must have been deleted.


 Here is the one you are looking for






What do you make of the older woman's expression?


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

What do I make of the older woman's expression?

How's this." I wish those two would quit fooling around and let me finish what I was working on"

And as far as your claim of her eyes?  Puhleese.  I enlarged it.  There's nothing there that I can see what you are claiming.

And as far as claiming she is being forced or harassed?  If you can see that, you're a better man than I am Gunga Din.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> "Some" men may not be, but some are.



A rare breed on the verge of extinction. Anyone that can tell what is on a woman's mind is a genius.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

What do I see? He is wearing his watch on his right hand so he is left handed.

Black tie with a blue suit. Gauche. 

She has a dark complexions so I'm thinking she is saying Ciao?:anyone:


----------



## Knight (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Neither was it his. So are you saying nurses out of the workplace are fair game?



Neither was it his? Explain who the "his" is and which post you are referring to so I can make sense out of what you posted.

As for the nurse. You do know this is about work place ****** harassment. The three areas being posted about have been.  Entertainment, politics. and general work places.  I don't know if she filed a civil complaint with the police do you?


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I sincerely hope you are not suggesting to a psychologist who has worked as a profiler in the past, that her science is gobbledegook science? As for your opinion re the inability of men to read tells, I beg to differ. The profiler who trained me was male.



Snicker. Men can't even tell when a woman is faking it, if you get my drift. layful:


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Here is the one you are looking for
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To me, the woman looks like she wants to get back to work.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Knight said:


> Neither was it his? Explain who the "his" is and which post you are referring to so I can make sense out of what you posted.
> 
> As for the nurse. You do know this is about work place ****** harassment. The three areas being posted about have been.  Entertainment, politics. and general work places.  I don't know if she filed a civil complaint with the police do you?



He's a sailor. His workplace is on a ship. The picture is famous. Ask Falcon.

And the the armed forces still overseas were not happy with what went on at home with the celebrations.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Kaya said:


> To me, the woman looks like she wants to get back to work.



How did the picture get blurred out? This is insane.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> This is for Camper.
> 
> The man in this photo has his hand on a woman and her eyes and body say that it is more than OK.
> 
> ...



Ah for craps sakes they are either waving hello or goodbye.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

Wait. You guys are talking about the youngish woman sitting on the mans lap??? I confess I have not read the whole thread because it irritates me this new trend of yelling about something that happened 30/40 years ago and now all of a sudden they speak up. Bullcrap, says I.

Anyway...the gal sitting on the guys lap looks like a gal sitting on a guys lap..smiling at the camera. No hidden fears or whatnot. Just smiling. His hand on her thigh. Ok. Leg loose and down. Ok. Guy looks like a guy happy a gal is sitting on his lap. Lady in front looks like she is bored and wants to go back to work.

So..from what little I have read, the young lady in the pic is now screeching the guy sexually harassed her back in 1960 or something? Why didn't she speak up then??? All this is ridiculous. If you are sexually harassed, DO SOMETHING. 
Well, unless you want your academy award first, or accepted $$$$ to shut up about it back then. Then it's all just AOK, right? Later on, after half a century, THEN you can scream about it with no proof but you can damn sure ruin someone's career because you kept your mouth shut.

*You as in general you*

But, I am speaking my own opinion with my own personality. Some guy did that to me, he would be talking in a girly voice. And $$$ or statues would not shut me up. But that's me.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

I also want to reiterate that I am not ignoring what others think or believe. I am just expressing my own opinion, from my perspective, which is affected by my personality.

All this stuff going on got me really riled awhile back. That Rose McGowan woman drove me nuts over on twitter. She, with an avie of herself and pics she posts of her as some wonder woman warrior out to get justice and calling her battle ROSEARMY when this all started in Hollyweird. She took hush money but didn't bother to tell her recruits. I enlightened them. Her army fell apart. Then she was all in the news about having a warrant for drug possession. So much for her ridiculous RoseArmy. Pfffffffffffft.

Now I take it all with a grain of salt.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

SPEAKING OF....did you folks know Wonder Woman was created by a perv? Look it up. He was into bondage sex. He wanted his bondage lover to join the family, and his wife said why not and they all lived happily ever after. One wife had 2 kids, the other 3 kids. And Wonder Woman was in the comics being tied up with a ball or stick in her mouth..A LOT. Bondage. Sex. Spread it to the kiddies!

Meh.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I agree  that men are not good at reading female body language. All too often they miss cues that signal a negative reaction and take silence as consent or a smile as encouragement. Never having been socialised the way little girls have been, they misread women, even after years of living with one.
> 
> Women, on the other hand can read women very well. We recognise hidden emotion because we have all been there. Trust me.
> 
> I'll look for the photo again but I did enlarge it myself. That is when I picked up the tension in her leg. In that position myself I would have been rigid as a board.


 
She slipped her shoe off. That's what people do when they are relaxed.  Some tension.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I think the exuberant sailor kissing a nurse in the euphoria of the declaration pf peace is a total red herring. He might just as likely have grabbed an old lady and swung her off the ground in a circle. Neither act would be held against him at that moment but a week later he might have been arrested for doing the same thing.
> 
> The sailor and the dancing man in this footage are expressing the same relief and joy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij9LkYCSujg



If I was her husband and that was my wife, I would have kicked him in the family jewels celebration or no celebration.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> I sincerely hope you are not suggesting to a psychologist who has worked as a profiler in the past, that her science is gobbledegook science? As for your opinion re the inability of men to read tells, I beg to differ. The profiler who trained me was male.



I'm not suggesting that at all.  I am saying it.  It's gobbledegook science, something like taking horoscopes seriously.

I don't need a psychologist to tell me what a snarling dog is thinking of.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

_*hands out the chill pills*

_:angel:


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

This is the claim. From Warrigal. 
_
The smile is for the camera. The eyes tell a different story. They are not smiling. They indicate embarrassment.
Also, look at the tension in her right leg. She is trying not to sit her full weight on him. 
My guess she couldn't wait to get off him. 				

:yeahright:
_


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> What do I make of the older woman's expression?
> 
> How's this." I wish those two would quit fooling around and let me finish what I was working on"
> 
> ...



That's odd. The older woman's face was not blurred in the original, nor was it when I posted it. The young woman's right foot is chooped off too but not is the original. I give up.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

I am not going to debate Warrigal for what she sees. I am just saying I myself don't see that at all. She doesn't look rigid or upset, nor anxious. TO ME, anyway.


----------



## Kaya (Nov 27, 2017)

I feel really old. I was surprised that someone..can't remember who...in this thread, didn't immediately connect the description of a post of a man in navy uniform kissing a woman nurse. Popped right into my head, it did. Yes. I am OLD.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

Kaya said:


> I feel really old. I was surprised that someone..can't remember who...in this thread, didn't immediately connect the description of a post of a man in navy uniform kissing a woman nurse. Popped right into my head, it did. Yes. I am OLD.



Compared to me you are probably still in the cradle.

I'm X rated.  LXXXIV


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 27, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not suggesting that at all.  I am saying it.  It's gobbledegook science, something like taking horoscopes seriously.
> 
> I don't need a psychologist to tell me what a snarling dog is thinking of.


Hmmm. So much anger.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 27, 2017)

That is what the dog is telling me.


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## Stormy (Nov 28, 2017)

Men should never force themselves physically on women. Men should never touch or mention a womans personal parts unless they are in a relationship. Men should never show their personal parts to a woman unless hes in a relationship or a hospital or doctor's office. Women should never sell their bodies to advance their careers. Woman should never dress and speak in a sexually provocative way to tease a man and only expect the one shes flirting with to react. Women can wear what they want but should not be teases and use ****** innuendos unless she wants sex. When women get raped or groped by an authority figure or workmate they should report it when it happens not decades later.There are a lot of good men and women on earth but the problems continue if the above examples continue. The woman on the lap in the picture doesn't look uncomfortable to me her smile is sincere and she is slipping off her shoe in the earlier picture. The blur faced woman in the chair looks like she want to tell them to get a room.  The prince and his fiancé look like a giddy happy couple, they are far away from the press across the pool so saying Harry is trying to protect her from them or somebody like her is camera shy is hard to believe


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 28, 2017)

Camera shy?
 She's an actor.


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 28, 2017)

Just responding with a few thoughts in blue



Stormy said:


> Men should never force themselves physically on women.
> Agreed, not even within marriage. The Pauline teaching that man has headship over his wife has caused a lot of trouble over the centuries. Women must have absolute right to be in charge of their own bodies.
> 
> Men should never touch or mention a womans personal parts unless they are in a relationship. Men should never show their personal parts to a woman unless hes in a relationship or a hospital or doctor's office.
> ...


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 28, 2017)

Starting a new thread about why women are speaking out now when they appear to have been silent in the past.


----------



## Camper6 (Nov 29, 2017)

I'm speaking for myself. This thread has left me more confused than ever.


----------



## JaniceM (Dec 1, 2017)

Thought this might be an interesting contribution to this thread:
http://www.kcci.com/article/1-in-4-...tutes-******-harassment-survey-finds/13991846


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 1, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> Thought this might be an interesting contribution to this thread:
> http://www.kcci.com/article/1-in-4-...tutes-******-harassment-survey-finds/13991846



1 in 4 men?  I have to ask the question?  Are they pornstars?


----------



## ray188 (Dec 2, 2017)

It's nothing new. As a retired fed, I had to take the ****** harassment class. And here (honestly) is a potential scenario. 
I find the woman in the next cubicle attractive. I stop by and ask if she'd like to go for a drink after work. 
Part one - three possibilities - 1) She says yes and we do; 2) She says no and we don't; 3) She files a complaint.  
Part two - the guy in the next cubicle over has also asked her out and she refused. To get even, he files a "hostile environment" complaint against both of us complaining he was offended by exchange. 
Part 3 - 1) neither of us is bothered by it; 2) the next guy over isn't interested; 3) BUT, a supervisor happens to be walking by and he knows that if a complaint is filed and it says he heard the invite and did nothing, he will be in trouble. So he takes action.
And that was 30 years ago......


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## Sunny (Dec 2, 2017)

I don't get it. Why would inviting a woman to go out for a drink be ****** harassment?

Of course, if he was wiggling his eyebrows like Groucho Marx while he said it....


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 2, 2017)

Sunny said:


> I don't get it. Why would inviting a woman to go out for a drink be ****** harassment?
> 
> Of course, if he was wiggling his eyebrows like Groucho Marx while he said it....



I don't get it, either, Sunny, unless the person asking her wields great power over whether or not she keeps her job.  Of course there is the argument that social stuff doesn't belong in the workplace -- maybe the man in Ray's scenario should ask the woman outside the office?  I dunno.


----------



## rgp (Dec 2, 2017)

What it boils down to is....His approach, & her reception of it...And let's be honest, none of us know what either is. We only know what they claim it to be. 

I was interested in a woman at work years ago. I was younger, [40 years] things were different. But I was still very discrete in my approach . Our dating went fine, our split went fine, no trouble with work...just some teasing from those who knew.......BTW, she is the one that i perhaps should have held on too.

But....I have heard a few [at work] stories that went really bad .


----------



## ray188 (Dec 2, 2017)

Sunny said:


> I don't get it. Why would inviting a woman to go out for a drink be ****** harassment?
> 
> Of course, if he was wiggling his eyebrows like Groucho Marx while he said it....



Well, we are talking about the federal government where one size fits all.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 2, 2017)

I didn't realize the feds went that far, but they were probably seeing or had seen enough cases to nip it in the bud.

I've always figured best practice was not to troll for sex among one's co-workers.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 2, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I didn't realize the feds went that far, but they were probably seeing or had seen enough cases to nip it in the bud.
> 
> I've always figured best practice was not to troll for sex among one's co-workers.



Me, too.  Too awkward, especially when the job outlasts the interest.


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## Smiling Jane (Dec 3, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Me, too.  Too awkward, especially when the job outlasts the interest.



It's like the nepotism rules. I always thought they made sense too, especially after I saw some terrible examples.


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 3, 2017)

Re ****** harrassment.

I am organizing a boycott in town.

I want all males to boycott strip tease joints, fashion shows, and anything where women tease men by displaying their wares for money.

Teach them a lesson.  You can't tease men and then claim ****** harassment and exploitation.  It's the other way around.

I know I am a controversial  s.o.b. so don't tell me about it.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 3, 2017)

"Controversial" is not the word that came to mind, Camper6.

You go to many fashion shows?


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## Camper6 (Dec 3, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> "Controversial" is not the word that came to mind, Camper6.
> 
> You go to many fashion shows?



No. Only the ones where they are displaying lingerie like Victoria's Secrets.

As far as I am concerned.  The secret is out of the bag.


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 3, 2017)

Now on a serious note.  Do you see where women are exploiting men?


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 3, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> No. Only the ones where they are displaying lingerie like Victoria's Secrets.
> 
> As far as I am concerned.  The secret is out of the bag.



I would hope at your age you're figured out that one.

I also hope you know that boycotting strip clubs and Victoria's Secrets tacky underwear shows will hurt men more than women because guess who owns those businesses.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/26/investing/l-brands-victorias-secret/index.html


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## Camper6 (Dec 3, 2017)

I want it to hit home.  In the pocketbook.  Excuse me.  Purse.

It's not going to hurt men more than women.  It's going to send a lesson.

If you play with the bull you get the horn.


----------



## ray188 (Dec 4, 2017)

While the camper comment may not be PC, it has merit. While I do not condone the Hollywood moguls taking advantage of their positions to get sex, we cannot forget that women have been known to use the "casting couch" to get what they want. The same can be seen in the workplace.


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 4, 2017)

Some people use blackmail to get what they want. Others use force or rank.
None of the above is OK.


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## Camper6 (Dec 4, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Some people use blackmail to get what they want. Others use force or rank.
> None of the above is OK.



And others use feminine wiles to get what they want and no force us used at all.


----------



## MarkinPhx (Dec 4, 2017)

ray188 said:


> While the camper comment may not be PC, it has merit. While I do not condone the Hollywood moguls taking advantage of their positions to get sex, we cannot forget that women have been known to use the "casting couch" to get what they want. The same can be seen in the workplace.



Maybe I am missing something here but isn't that the crux of the issue ? A woman shouldn't have to make such a choice to advance her career.  I have never been put in that situation so I don't think I have the right to judge a woman who makes the decision to do what it takes to advance in her field. If she "consents" to the casting couch it is still ****** harassment in my eyes. The harassment isn't based on a choice made but the fact that there was a choice to be made in the first place.


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 4, 2017)

Camper, your statement about using feminine wiles to  get something from a man is a bit too broad to allow a judgement call. 

If she wants all of his money, and he gives it to her, that is most probably wrong. 
 If she just wants a compliment then it is trivial and not worth a comment. 
 In between? Depends on the circumstances. 
 Remember that he is still a free agent and can refuse. Many do. 
 Others sense that they can negotiate i.e. trade and the result may be mutually satisfactory.

 I find it hard to equate the fluttering of eyelashes or the use of inviting body language in any way equivalent to leering, groping or forcing a young woman to perform a sex act against her will.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 4, 2017)

OTOH, Minnesota Public Radio immediately fired Garrison Keillor and have banished him to the land of disgrace, after a 40-year career on that network, and being probably their most beloved performer. One woman made a complaint about him inappropriately putting his hand on her bare back. He apologized, and there have been no other complaints about him, at least not on this subject. Wasn't this just a wee bit over the top?  They treated his offense more like rape than inappropriate touching. (Unless there is more to the story than that; he might have a long history as a womanizer, which has been kept under wraps because he was such a popular performer?)


----------



## ray188 (Dec 4, 2017)

Sunny said:


> OTOH, Minnesota Public Radio immediately fired Garrison Keillor and have banished him to the land of disgrace, after a 40-year career on that network, and being probably their most beloved performer. One woman made a complaint about him inappropriately putting his hand on her bare back. He apologized, and there have been no other complaints about him, at least not on this subject. Wasn't this just a wee bit over the top?  They treated his offense more like rape than inappropriate touching. (Unless there is more to the story than that; he might have a long history as a womanizer, which has been kept under wraps because he was such a popular performer?)


I agree - over the top. That is the PC world we live in. As I heard the story he was consoling here (I don't have the details). Bottom line - he didn't bare her back, she did. There are pictures of Obama hugging Bowe Bergdahl's mother. Is he guilty of "inappropriate touching"?


----------



## ray188 (Dec 4, 2017)

MarkinPhx said:


> Maybe I am missing something here but isn't that the crux of the issue ? A woman shouldn't have to make such a choice to advance her career.  I have never been put in that situation so I don't think I have the right to judge a woman who makes the decision to do what it takes to advance in her field. If she "consents" to the casting couch it is still ****** harassment in my eyes. The harassment isn't based on a choice made but the fact that there was a choice to be made in the first place.


O.K. she shouldn't have to but if she opts to....???? It does give the good looking woman an advantage over one less so and that too could be considered unfair. But, life ain't fair and there is no way to make it so.

I recall once being at a meeting in Dallas involving men and women. As the meeting was breaking up, I said, "Hey Guys (to the locals) where are we going two-stepping tonight?". Two of the women who had come from DC in our group opined agreement. The locals were shocked. Apparently they had recently gotten their seminar. Bottom line, several of us went, had a great time, and no one has yet complained. 

Maybe I better never run for office - who knows what could be claimed.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 4, 2017)

Sunny said:


> OTOH, Minnesota Public Radio immediately fired Garrison Keillor and have banished him to the land of disgrace, after a 40-year career on that network, and being probably their most beloved performer. One woman made a complaint about him inappropriately putting his hand on her bare back. He apologized, and there have been no other complaints about him, at least not on this subject. Wasn't this just a wee bit over the top?  They treated his offense more like rape than inappropriate touching. (Unless there is more to the story than that; he might have a long history as a womanizer, which has been kept under wraps because he was such a popular performer?)



Garrison Keillor was a notorious groper, a fact that was well known among women who worked with him. I figure if a little old lady in Albuquerque knew about the problems with Keillor's hands, it was known throughout his industry.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Dec 4, 2017)

I'm not a female. I've never groped anybody.  If you are a young, "cute" female, do you pawed by men? Most of my female friends  would have belted some guy acting like that.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 4, 2017)

I got my groper arrested, fuzzybuddy.

Thing is, I wasn't involved in a high stakes game like trying to make it in movies or TV. That's a much tougher life.


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 4, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Garrison Keillor was a notorious groper, a fact that was well known among women who worked with him. I figure if a little old lady in Albuquerque knew about the problems with Keillor's hands, it was known throughout his industry.


Of course he wasn't fired for putting his hand on a woman's bare back. Use your common sense everybody.
Where was that unlikely version of events published?


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Dec 4, 2017)

Smiling Jane, I'm happy you did.


----------



## JayBird (Dec 9, 2017)

Just finished reading through this thread (slow snowy afternoon).  What an EYEOPENER!  I appreciate all the intelligent female commentaries on the subject. I am disappointed there aren't more men posting that understand women.  I know they exist and am thankful to have them in my life.  After a 35 year career in a mostly male dominated field I have had my fill of jerks.  

Could women in business dress more conservative?  Possibly.  Should it make ANY difference in how they are treated as a woman.  No. 

To the one with the quote below I call BS.  You have no clue how this works.  Most of these guys are ****** bullies. Workplaces don't do much with bullies (****** or not).  HR is not there for the people, it is there to protect the company.  Most women know that bringing charges of any kind will cost them their job at a minimum and possibly career.  This stance does not take feelings into account at all.  With Bill Cosby, women came forward and were laughed at because of his 'stellar' reputation.  Same goes for Jerry Sandusky, but his attacks were not on women.  

_Folks with claims and justification seem to be OK while it seems many are just fence sitters trying to make an issue with no justifications._

_These charges need to be brought up in court if really wanting changes made._​How long did it take those attacked by priests to come forward?  Not being believed at best, ridiculed or losing everything due to 'coming out' is terrifying.  Women in high profile cases are risking a great deal and lying is rare. 

I think most decent men understand the boundaries and where they are crossed.  It should not take 6-12-30 or 60 women to be attacked in some way for society to deal with the problem.  

To the poster of the quote above..  how many courts would charge a case of unwanted kiss forced on a woman, a case of lewd jokes and pictures being shared in the attempt to intimidate, a case of a person that keeps talking about ****** dreams they have about you, or for that matter any case that doesn't have hard and fast evidence to convict of a crime?  Law enforcement and the courts do nothing. It is very difficult to even get a rape conviction these days. 
_And lastly, the number of cases coming forward are causing a lot of good to happen.  People are talking!  We are finding out how women are silenced with payouts, while the abuser continues to abuse other women (without any warning about the behavior). This has to stop.  
_
Another question I have heard is Why now?  Obviously the election split the question wide open and opened a lot of wounds.  The more victims hear men in power deny MULTIPLE accusers, especially if they are victims of the same abuser, they are getting angry.  They are speaking up about their experiences.  I have talked about events with people that haven't been discussed in over 30 years. 

I think we have only hit the tip of the iceberg. The more that come out, the more victims that will have buried feelings resurface and want justice of some sort.  Calling them all liars without any type of investigation makes you a part of the problem.  "There are two sides!"


----------



## RadishRose (Dec 9, 2017)

Thanks for speaking out, Jaybird.


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 9, 2017)

Just finished reading through this thread (slow snowy afternoon).  What  an EYEOPENER!  I appreciate all the intelligent female commentaries on  the subject. I am disappointed there aren't more men posting that  understand women.  I know they exist and am thankful to have them in my  life.  After a 35 year career in a mostly male dominated field I have  had my fill of jerks.  

There aren't more men posting that understand women because there simply isn't any.:dunno:

For instance Garrison Kieler was a known groper.

So? You all knew that and you put up with it?

That's what I don't understand.  You knew it but did nothing about it until now.?   WHY? WHY? WHY?

Here's the way I look at it.  Call me on it.

You put up with it and then wait until your career is furthered and complain about it now?

Forgive me but that's almost like prostitution  in another form.

I'm going to be raked over the coals for this but I don't care.  That's the the way I feel about all these revelations now instead of then.

Faked outrage.


----------



## rgp (Dec 9, 2017)

"Calling them all liars without any type of investigation makes you a part of the problem. "There are two sides!" "

   And believing ALL the accusers , without same investigation....leading to any sort of evidence/proof .....solves the problem ?

  Show me proof, & or an admission of guilt & for sure I'd say punish them accordingly,.. Without that? it is just fodder for the tabloids.

If it is a legal charge ? Investigation is the decision of the prosecutor , if he/she sees no evidence? of a crime, tax-payer dollars are better spent elsewhere.

If it is a work site incident ? company management may well choose to continue with the business at hand. And that is their call.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 9, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Just finished reading through this thread (slow snowy afternoon).  What  an EYEOPENER!  I appreciate all the intelligent female commentaries on  the subject. I am disappointed there aren't more men posting that  understand women.  I know they exist and am thankful to have them in my  life.  After a 35 year career in a mostly male dominated field I have  had my fill of jerks.
> 
> There aren't more men posting that understand women because there simply isn't any.:dunno:
> 
> ...


Power dynamics are at work, pun intended. In many cases, the improper behaviour was carried out by powerful figures, often abetted by underlings. Fear is a powerful motivator to keep silent. Ridicule, loss of job, being blackballed, shame, disbelief, these are things which many victims face. I know from personal experience. I spent almost a decade striving for a PhD in my chosen profession. One word from my “mentor, aka violator,” would have trashed that completely. You bet, I chose to remain silent.


----------



## rgp (Dec 9, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Just finished reading through this thread (slow snowy afternoon).  What  an EYEOPENER!  I appreciate all the intelligent female commentaries on  the subject. I am disappointed there aren't more men posting that  understand women.  I know they exist and am thankful to have them in my  life.  After a 35 year career in a mostly male dominated field I have  had my fill of jerks.
> 
> There aren't more men posting that understand women because there simply isn't any.:dunno:
> 
> ...




    Agreed !


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 9, 2017)

Interesting thread. I hadn't visited it for some time until today.

It's almost a microcosm of how abuse works, with mostly women talking about what it's like to live with abuse and oppression, and a couple of men trying to control the narrative and make sure everyone thinks everything is just peachy keen, there is no abuse and women are imagining everything.


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Interesting thread. I hadn't visited it for some time until today.
> 
> It's almost a microcosm of how abuse works, with mostly women talking about what it's like to live with abuse and oppression, and a couple of men trying to control the narrative and make sure everyone thinks everything is just peachy keen, there is no abuse and women are imagining everything.



I dont see it that way. It s all one sided.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Dec 9, 2017)

What ever happened years ago comes down to a he said/she said. When you have multiple "she saids", it does change the equation. So, what do we do, now ?  Where is the line? Keeping in mind, there will be workplace sex. I once attended a meeting with six members. Four of those members were having affairs.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Interesting thread. I hadn't visited it for some time until today.
> 
> It's almost a microcosm of how abuse works, with mostly women talking about what it's like to live with abuse and oppression, and a couple of men trying to control the narrative and make sure everyone thinks everything is just peachy keen, there is no abuse and women are imagining everything.


Absolutely.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 9, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I dont see it that way. It s all one sided.



I would expect nothing different from you. How can the narrative be one-sided when you've been all over this thread with MRA bs?


----------



## Camper6 (Dec 9, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I would expect nothing different from you. How can the narrative be one-sided when you've been all over this thread with MRA bs?



It's called the First Amendment. I don't even know what MRA is.

I have every right to voice my opinion just like you.

I really don't care what you "expect".


----------



## ray188 (Dec 10, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Interesting thread. I hadn't visited it for some time until today.
> 
> It's almost a microcosm of how abuse works, with mostly women talking about what it's like to live with abuse and oppression, and a couple of men trying to control the narrative and make sure everyone thinks everything is just peachy keen, there is no abuse and women are imagining everything.


Another way of looking at the above - offering an alternative view is labeled "trying to control the narrative". And offer things in absolute terms while being accusatory towards anyone not accepting the absolute.

Yes, men will use their position to "get some". and women will use their feminine ways to advance themselves. Right?? Nope - but real, on both sides.


----------



## Smiling Jane (Dec 10, 2017)

I dated a guy years ago who was a clinical psychologist. He always refuted any argument that involved requiring legal proof, saying that stuff belonged to the courts, not human interactions. I had spent too much time around lawyers and had begun to think that legal proof was some fundamental part of belief, but it isn't.

These guys who assault women at work don't call in a team of videographers to record it. Unless they rape her, there's not likely to be any physical evidence, DNA or whatever. So let's happily pretend it never happened because there isn't any proof.

The constant _there's no proof_ litany plays a very large part in controlling the narrative. I believe many things about which I have no proof, and I'm sure you do too. Why draw the line here? Why not say you're never going to believe anything unless you see proof. That should make for an interesting life. 

When you go out to get in your car tomorrow and discover someone smashed it during the night, just remember there's no damage because there's no proof. I like it. Works for me.


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## Camper6 (Dec 10, 2017)

Unfortunately when you try to prosecute you have to produce evidence and proof.

Otherwise it's hearsay evidence.

The damage to your car is visible evidence and proof.

You are confusing the law.


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## ray188 (Dec 10, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I dated a guy years ago who was a clinical psychologist. He always refuted any argument that involved requiring legal proof, saying that stuff belonged to the courts, not human interactions. I had spent too much time around lawyers and had begun to think that legal proof was some fundamental part of belief, but it isn't.
> 
> These guys who assault women at work don't call in a team of videographers to record it. Unless they rape her, there's not likely to be any physical evidence, DNA or whatever. So let's happily pretend it never happened because there isn't any proof.
> 
> ...


Would you prefer that if a woman claims it and a man denies it - she is right? Let's reverse that, he says "She asked for it"; she says, "No I didn't" - ergo, she did.

See what I mean, proof is a useful tool.


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## rgp (Dec 10, 2017)

"These guys who assault women at work don't call in a team of videographers to record it. Unless they rape her, there's not likely to be any physical evidence, DNA or whatever. So let's happily pretend it never happened because there isn't any proof."

So then conversely we should what ? Assume / pretend that it did....just on accusation alone ?

"When you go out to get in your car tomorrow and discover someone smashed it during the night, just remember there's no damage because there's no proof. I like it. Works for me."

   That doesn't even make sense ! The damage IS proof....of it being 'smashed' anyway....no proof of who did it however.


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## Sunny (Dec 10, 2017)

About Garrison Keillor being a "known groper," maybe my friends and I are a bit dim, but we were all genuinely shocked when we saw the accusations against him. The universal response was, "Garrison KEILLOR?" We all pretty much bought into his kindly uncle persona.


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## Camper6 (Dec 10, 2017)

Sunny said:


> About Garrison Keillor being a "known groper," maybe my friends and I are a bit dim, but we were all genuinely shocked when we saw the accusations against him. The universal response was, "Garrison KEILLOR?" We all pretty much bought into his kindly uncle persona.



Lake Woe be gone.


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## Warrigal (Dec 10, 2017)

Sunny said:


> About Garrison Keillor being a "known groper," maybe my friends and I are a bit dim, but we were all genuinely shocked when we saw the accusations against him. The universal response was, "Garrison KEILLOR?" We all pretty much bought into his kindly uncle persona.



I can relate to that. I happened to catch a few of his folksy stories and I loved them. 
However, I am not of a mind to grant licence to talented individuals.
When I hear, for example, that a favourite writer is a pederast, I stop reading his work.
Same goes for favourite entertainers. 
If they use their popularity to treat unsuspecting women as object, I am glad when they are exposed.
Glad but disappointed at the same time.


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## RadishRose (Dec 11, 2017)

[h=1]Celebrity Chef Mario Batali Will 'Step Away' From Company After ****** Misconduct Allegations[/h]
Mario admits and apologizes:

“Although the identities of most of the individuals mentioned in these stories have not been revealed to me, much of the behavior described does, in fact, match up with ways I have acted. That behavior was wrong and there are no excuses. I take full responsibility and am deeply sorry for any pain, humiliation or discomfort I have caused to my peers, employees, customers, friends and family,” Batali told Eater. “We built these restaurants so that our guests could have fun and indulge, but I took that too far in my own behavior. I won’t make that mistake again. I want any place I am associated with to feel comfortable and safe for the people who work or dine there.”

http://time.com/5058284/mario-batali-******-misconduct-allegations/

I read ABC has asked him to leave the program "ABC's The Chew". I thought he was a great host there and feel sad about this.


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## Camper6 (Dec 11, 2017)

I think all these guys admitting it are proud of it.


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