# The Inevitable Take Over Of Taiwan By China.



## fmdog44 (Apr 25, 2021)

I just read an article of the coming threat of China's pledge/destiny to rule all of the Asian continent with eyes set on Taiwan and how difficult the odds are of an American victory over China in their backyard. I have to agree we have no chance of a shooting war with China and this country would never support such an effort. WWI & II & Viet Nam and Iraq were not in favor of American involvement with the exception of the attack on Pearl Harbor and even after 911 the Iraq War was viewed as a hopeless blunder. The only solution to stopping China is a united effort by all Asian countries to stop their concept of expansion.


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## Tish (Apr 25, 2021)

I agree with you, a united Asian front could very well stop it, but how do stop Russia from getting involved? And once Russia starts raising its head The U.S. will have to take notice and/or act.

Of course, the moment the U.S. gets involved, all Hell will break loose in the Middle East.
The whole thing sounds like a very sticky situation and a no-win one.


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## Gardenlover (Apr 25, 2021)

fmdog44 - I just stared reading "Asia's New Geopolitics: Essays on Reshaping the Indo-Pacific" and I believe the threat is real and not just for Asia.


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## jujube (Apr 25, 2021)

I sure hope China doesn't take over. My nephew lives there and plans to stay permanently. He moved there after being expelled from China.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 27, 2021)

Tish said:


> I agree with you, a united Asian front could very well stop it, but how do stop Russia from getting involved? And once Russia starts raising its head The U.S. will have to take notice and/or act.
> 
> Of course, the moment the U.S. gets involved, all Hell will break loose in the Middle East.
> The whole thing sounds like a very sticky situation and a no-win one.


Yeah, I think making some sort of deal with Russia would be one of the first priorities. I actually think that's doable if the right strategists get seats in the think tank.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 27, 2021)

Sad the longer we live on the planet the closer we become to melting it. Anyone heard of the Dead Hand Buzz from Russia heard  on a radio frequency for about 40 years?


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## SetWave (Apr 27, 2021)




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## Gaer (Apr 27, 2021)

You might not realize it right now but Communist Chine is at war with us RIGHT NOW!https://bitterwinter.org/tag/re-edu...MIh4W-lomn7wIVV8DICh1QbwQ5EAAYAiAAEgKeyPD_BwE


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## Murrmurr (Apr 27, 2021)

Gaer said:


> You might not realize it right now but Communist Chine is at war with us RIGHT NOW!https://bitterwinter.org/tag/re-edu...MIh4W-lomn7wIVV8DICh1QbwQ5EAAYAiAAEgKeyPD_BwE


Clearly. And they are the greatest threat to the US on the planet. Again, I don't think it's _impossible_ to make a deal with Russia. It would be costly, and even worse, tentative, but could at least buy us some time and possibly a slight strategic advantage, either of which could be precious.

Just my opinion based on some reading.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 28, 2021)

The Chinese know how to play the long game.

Follow the progress of China's One Belt One Road initiative.  All of the improvements in infrastructure/shipping that they are investing in can be used to carry troops just as easily as they carry trade goods.







https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...-OBOR-from-2020-2030---ResearchAndMarkets.com


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## Murrmurr (Apr 28, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The Chinese know how to play the long game.
> 
> Follow the progress of China's One Belt One Road initiative.  All of the improvements in infrastructure/shipping that they are investing in can be used to carry troops just as easily as they carry trade goods.
> 
> ...


There's no doubt they not only have the infrastructure, they're well-fortified and their technology is first-rate. They have a sure-fire method for getting their best minds on every project - "Come up with something exceptional, or die." Doesn't mean they don't have any weak spots, though, and "our guys" have been planning for decades. You know our former president gave the military nearly a $750-billion budget not too long ago. There's no doubt in my mind it'll be well-spent.


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## Gaer (Apr 28, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The Chinese know how to play the long game.
> 
> Follow the progress of China's One Belt One Road initiative.  All of the improvements in infrastructure/shipping that they are investing in can be used to carry troops just as easily as they carry trade goods.
> 
> ...


Aunt Bea, This is interesting, and scary!  Did you discover this?  Wow!
Maybe it's time we boycott Communist China goods!


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 28, 2021)

Gaer said:


> Aunt Bea, This is interesting, and scary!  Did you discover this?  Wow!
> Maybe it's time we boycott Communist China goods!


Haha!

I didn’t discover it China has been working on it for years.

IMO a boycott or trade war with China would do us more harm than good.

My only point was that we tend to look at the future in four year increments while the Chinese look at the future over generations.


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## Pepper (Apr 28, 2021)

Here's how it's gonna wind up (IMO):  China gets Asia, U.S. gets the Americas and Russia takes Europe and I don't know about Australia.


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## Keesha (Apr 28, 2021)

Noooooooooooo!


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## fmdog44 (Apr 29, 2021)

China has patience and Americans do not. Big difference.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 29, 2021)

jujube said:


> I sure hope China doesn't take over. My nephew lives there and plans to stay permanently. He moved there after being expelled from China.


Tell him not to worry but keep one bag packed at all times.


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The Chinese know how to play the long game.
> 
> Follow the progress of China's One Belt One Road initiative.  All of the improvements in infrastructure/shipping that they are investing in can be used to carry troops just as easily as they carry trade goods.
> 
> ...


China made empty promises about the One Belt One Road initiative that got the other countries and regions involved extremely ticked-off. China's CCP played a game of smoke and mirrors that's destined to backfire.


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Here's how it's gonna wind up (IMO):  China gets Asia, U.S. gets the Americas and Russia takes Europe and I don't know about Australia.


I think you're wrong, Pepper. China is bordered by 14 countries that despise the CCP. And even though their politics are fundamentally similar (except not so much recently), Russia has zero respect for China. Russia scoffs at China. And Australia aint havin' none of it from China.


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## Pepper (May 1, 2021)

I want to be wrong @Murrmurr.


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## Lara (May 1, 2021)

One day in the future, there will be one Ruler for the whole world. Modern technology for a one world government economy is already in place with Credit Cards, Online Banking, and exchange of money on the internet for purchases.

But anyone can get around the Internet rules, say, on the Black Market. So instead we will end up with a cashless society so every transaction can be controlled by the one and only global government run by this one ruler.

"Cashless" will possibly be via a mark on or under our skin much like the Credit Card Chip or the Barcode on products that can be scanned or a Dog chip under their skin that is scanned for identification. If someone refuses this mark they won't survive because they won't be able to buy anything.

We saw this in all the European countries with the colonization of their own separate currencies folding into one currency with the Euro.


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## fmdog44 (May 1, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I think you're wrong, Pepper. China is bordered by 14 countries that despise the CCP. And even though their politics are fundamentally similar (except not so much recently), Russia has zero respect for China. Russia scoffs at China. And Australia aint havin' none of it from China.


Recall the border skirmishes between the two back in the 70's.


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## Nathan (May 1, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Clearly. And they are the greatest threat to the US on the planet. Again, I don't think it's _impossible_ to make a deal with Russia. It would be costly, and even worse, tentative, but could at least buy us some time and possibly a slight strategic advantage, either of which could be precious.
> 
> Just my opinion based on some reading.


I don't trust Russia any further than I can spit.   Russia meddling in U.S. elections:   for slow learners- Russia is not our friends


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Recall the border skirmishes between the two back in the 70's.


And the current CCP leader (Xi) is a throwback to the 60-70s. And nobody (who realizes that) likes it.


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I don't trust Russia any further than I can spit.   Russia meddling in U.S. elections:   for slow learners- Russia is not our friends


They're no friend of China either, no matter how it appears. They like trade, they throw a few bones, but Russia lost its *iron* grip, and a little bit of capitalism and a bit more freedom seeped in, and they like it. Russia looks down on China, believe me. There's no mutual affection or respect between the two.


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## Tish (May 1, 2021)

Gaer said:


> You might not realize it right now but Communist Chine is at war with us RIGHT NOW!https://bitterwinter.org/tag/re-edu...MIh4W-lomn7wIVV8DICh1QbwQ5EAAYAiAAEgKeyPD_BwE


They certainly are with herein Australia, they are screwing over our farmers and now they are thinking of sending all their foreign students to New Zealand. And all of this is happening because our Government wants to investigate the origins of their biological warfare.(Covid)


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> There's no doubt* they not only have the infrastructure*, they're well-fortified and *their technology is first-rate*. They have a sure-fire method for getting their best minds on every project - "Come up with something exceptional, or die." Doesn't mean they don't have any weak spots, though, and "our guys" have been planning for decades. You know our former president gave the military nearly a $750-billion budget not too long ago. There's no doubt in my mind it'll be well-spent.


After some digging last night I learned the CCP outright lied about those highlighted bits. Their technology is second-rate at best, and they're backward in their use of it. Internet access is extremely limited for the citizens, of course. 

And their "best minds" lie to the CCP and "fake it" in order to stay alive and out of the concentration camps, so there's that too.


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## Murrmurr (May 1, 2021)

Tish said:


> They certainly are with herein Australia, they are screwing over our farmers and now they are thinking of sending all their foreign students to New Zealand. And all of this is happening because our Government wants to investigate the origins of their biological warfare.(Covid)


Remember when WHO investigated the Wuhan Lab? It came a whole year after the first covid cases and lasted 3 hours. A 3 hour investigation in a spotless lab one full year after *possibly* the worst *alleged* biological crime in recent history.

And WHO said "Nothing to see here."


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## Tish (May 2, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Remember when WHO investigated the Wuhan Lab? It came a whole year after the first covid cases and lasted 3 hours. A 3 hour investigation in a spotless lab one full year after *possibly* the worst *alleged* biological crime in recent history.
> 
> And WHO said "Nothing to see here."


I have no respect for the credibility of The WHO especially since it is being run by Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the very same man that stated the Cholera epidemic in Ethiopia was just a few cases of Diarrhea. Yeah right. 
 Like he is not on the take, lining his pockets with blood money.


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## JimBob1952 (May 3, 2021)

This was mentioned on 60 Minutes last night in two different contexts:  First in an interview with Secretary of State Tony Blinken (who I find very impressive btw) and second in a story on the global chip shortage.  The ability to make top quality, highly advanced semiconductors is something Taiwan has and China wants.  

The long and short of it is that the EU, US, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, ANZ must all stand up to China if it makes a play to take over Taiwan.  No one country is strong enough to do it but it's in everyone's interest to stand fast.


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## Don M. (May 3, 2021)

China is rapidly moving towards becoming the world's largest economy.....by maximizing the use of low wage labor, and hacking the technology of other nations, and corporations moving their production to that nation so as to enhance their profits. 

The Best, and perhaps Only ploy a consumer can do, is research anything we buy, and if it's made in China, and there is any other alternative, buy the alternative. 

What I would like to see is a huge tariff applied to any US branded product that is being made in China, AND a good tax break for any US company that brings its manufacturing back the the U.S.  Paying a bit more for a product made here is a far better alternative, IMO, than allowing these corporations to pad their profits at the expense of US workers.


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## Tish (May 3, 2021)

Don M. said:


> China is rapidly moving towards becoming the world's largest economy.....by maximizing the use of low wage labor, and hacking the technology of other nations, and corporations moving their production to that nation so as to enhance their profits.
> 
> The Best, and perhaps Only ploy a consumer can do, is research anything we buy, and if it's made in China, and there is any other alternative, buy the alternative.
> 
> What I would like to see is a huge tariff applied to any US branded product that is being made in India, AND a good tax break for any US company that brings its manufacturing back the the U.S.  Paying a bit more for a product made here is a far better alternative, IMO, than allowing these corporations to pad their profits at the expense of US workers.


Totally agree with you, I have been boycotting anything made in China, I always try to buy Australian-made products.


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## Murrmurr (May 3, 2021)

Don M. said:


> China is rapidly moving towards becoming the world's largest economy.....by maximizing the use of low wage labor, and hacking the technology of other nations, and corporations moving their production to that nation so as to enhance their profits.
> 
> The Best, and perhaps Only ploy a consumer can do, is research anything we buy, and if it's made in China, and there is any other alternative, buy the alternative.
> 
> *What I would like to see is a huge tariff applied to any US branded product that is being made in China, AND a good tax break for any US company that brings its manufacturing back the the U.S.*  Paying a bit more for a product made here is a far better alternative, IMO, than allowing these corporations to pad their profits at the expense of US workers.


There is a problem there, though....their workforce is aging. Thanks to the One-Child rule, within 15 years China won't have enough laborers to maintain the levels of production they've enjoyed for the past 50+, and today's laborers in China (a _huge_ number of people, average age 40) will be retiring and becoming an economic drain. Might be one reason why they seem in a rush to make something happen right now.

*I totally agree!*


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## Murrmurr (May 3, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> This was mentioned on 60 Minutes last night in two different contexts:  First in an interview with Secretary of State Tony Blinken (who I find very impressive btw) and second in a story on the global chip shortage.  The ability to make top quality, highly advanced semiconductors is something Taiwan has and China wants.
> 
> The long and short of it is that the EU, US, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, ANZ must all stand up to China if it makes a play to take over Taiwan.  No one country is strong enough to do it but it's in everyone's interest to stand fast.


British Royal Navy is on their way to the China Sea as we speak. US Navy personnel and heavy equipment is going along "for the ride".

Video:


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## Gaer (May 3, 2021)

Western China stil lhas DEATH CAMPS!
We better wake up and start being AWARE of the threats from Communist China!
I'm not kidding!


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## Murrmurr (May 3, 2021)

Gaer said:


> Western China stil lhas DEATH CAMPS!
> We better wake up and start being AWARE of the threats from Communist China!
> I'm not kidding!


Yes, you can see them on google earth! NW China


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## Don M. (May 3, 2021)

China is NOT our friend....I put them in the same boat with North Korea and Iran.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 4, 2021)

I don't foresee a military take over of Taiwan. I agree that China is in it for the long time. Maybe 20-30  years from now, a big PR campaign to "unite"  * ALL * Chinese.   For those on the continent to embrace their brothers with their brothers on Taiwan,  and vice versa .etc


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## Murrmurr (May 4, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I don't foresee a military take over of Taiwan. I agree that China is in it for the long time. Maybe 20-30  years from now, a big PR campaign to "unite"  * ALL * Chinese.   For those on the continent to embrace their brothers with their brothers on Taiwan,  and vice versa .etc


I think maybe China feels pressured to act quicker than 20-30 years because its losing its middle class/production/military force....its population is aging because they failed to think ahead when they made that stupid One-Child law 3 or 4 generations ago.

I don't think we're going to see much embracing going on as long as the CCP remains extremely suppressive.


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## fmdog44 (May 22, 2021)

We are at the point where we can't go to war over atrocities or invasions by Russia or China simply because what would be the limitations of a declaration of war? Does one country send hundreds of thousands of troops to die when you can attack with atomic bombs? The destructive power of modern weapons changes everything. For example Russia invades Ukraine in an all or nothing war what does America do? China invades Taiwan to rule it what does America do? How many of our troops would die before we go nuclear? Add, why did we wait so long to go nuclear? Maybe nukes truly are preventing another world war.


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## Aunt Bea (May 22, 2021)

IMO it has more to do with money, corporate investment, and global markets than military might.


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## fmdog44 (May 22, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it has more to do with money, corporate investment, and global markets than military might.


You would be correct


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## Murrmurr (May 22, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> We are at the point where we can't go to war over atrocities or invasions by Russia or China simply because what would be the limitations of a declaration of war? Does one country send hundreds of thousands of troops to die when you can attack with atomic bombs? The destructive power of modern weapons changes everything. For example Russia invades Ukraine in an all or nothing war what does America do? China invades Taiwan to rule it what does America do? How many of our troops would die before we go nuclear? Add, why did we wait so long to go nuclear? Maybe nukes truly are preventing another world war.


I suppose that's why we engage in political and economical warfare; sanctions, boycotts public embarrassment, etc.

China's all butthurt because Nike and other big brands stopped buying their cotton after they found out it's harvested by slave labor. The CCP _hates_ to "lose face".


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## Murrmurr (May 22, 2021)

@fmdog44 - "Maybe nukes truly are preventing another world war."

I believe so.


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## Nathan (May 22, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it has more to do with money, corporate investment, and global markets than military might.


Yes, and I think all the major players understand this.     Force + Force= no winners.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 22, 2021)

I thought we aren't supposed to talk politics on this forum? Or is that only American politics?!


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## Murrmurr (May 23, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it has more to do with *money, corporate investment*, and global markets than military might.


US Dept of Homeland Security just suspended and are denying US visas for a bunch of CCP officials and businessmen and their families, including their kids attending universities here. The DHS is also talking about freezing the assets of the ones who have holdings in the US, and levying fines. Plus there was a sudden rise in the price of raw materials imported to China, i.e. cooking oil and construction materials, some prices doubling, leading to a sharp price increase on goods and commodities for Chinese citizens. Some businesses are slowing production to save costs, and some are closing.


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## fmdog44 (May 24, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I thought we aren't supposed to talk politics on this forum? Or is that only American politics?!


It is military not politics.


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## Nathan (May 24, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> It is military not politics.


Well I think it's safe to say that "military" is the strong-arm of politics.


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## Murrmurr (May 24, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> It is military not politics.


It's world news; a significant event on the world stage.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 25, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> It is military not politics.


A very fine line. I agree with @Nathan's last reply. The military gets orders from presidents, heads of state, Kings, Queens or whoever heads that nation even if those orders have gone through some channels first.


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## fmdog44 (May 31, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Well I think it's safe to say that "military" is the strong-arm of politics.


If there is one thing on top of the military list of things they hate it would politicians.


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## Murrmurr (May 31, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> If there is one thing on top of the military list of things they hate it would politicians.


That's so true.


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## Nathan (May 31, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> If there is one thing on top of the military list of things they hate it would politicians.


Probably, but ultimately it's the politician's that tell the military what to do.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I just read an article of the coming threat of China's pledge/destiny to rule all of the Asian continent with eyes set on Taiwan and how difficult the odds are of an American victory over China in their backyard. I have to agree we have no chance of a shooting war with China and this country would never support such an effort. WWI & II & Viet Nam and Iraq were not in favor of American involvement with the exception of the attack on Pearl Harbor and even after 911 the Iraq War was viewed as a hopeless blunder. The only solution to stopping China is a united effort by all Asian countries to stop their concept of expansion.






The Chinese do not view this as expansion since Taiwan's population is Chinese.  It's the equivalent of South Carolina claiming the right of secession in 1860 while the government refused to recognize that declaration.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The Chinese do not view this as expansion since Taiwan's population is Chinese.  It's the equivalent of South Carolina claiming the right of secession in 1860 while the government refused to recognize that declaration.


I believe fmdog44 meant expansion into all of Asia, not Taiwan specifically.

We and most of our allies have already vowed military support and protection to all Asian countries that the CCP has its eyes on. I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures. I think they believe their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunifying and expanding through less obvious means.


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## Pepper (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I believe fmdog44 meant expansion into all of Asia, not Taiwan specifically.
> 
> We and most of our allies have already vowed military support and protection to all Asian countries that the CCP has its eyes on. I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures. I think they believe their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunifying and expanding through less obvious means.


Poor forgotten Tibet which isn't even Tibetan anymore as the Chinese basically colonized it & deported and/or outnumbered native Tibetans.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Poor forgotten Tibet which isn't even Tibetan anymore as the Chinese basically colonized it & deported and/or outnumbered native Tibetans.


The CCP is not fond of "tribes" and "cults". They're too self-governing and individualistic. In other words, too Western.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I believe fmdog44 meant expansion into all of Asia, not Taiwan specifically.
> 
> We and most of our allies have already vowed military support and protection to all Asian countries that the CCP has its eyes on. I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures. I think they believe their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunifying and expanding through less obvious means.





For decades we have been hearing rumors that China was about to conquer Asia but such myths only serve to guarantee government contracts for the military industrial complex.  Beijing has many allies all over the continent including Cambodia, Iraq, Kuwait, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and much of Eastern Europe including Turkey. It has other allies world wide.  The only country in the world that has launched foreign invasions, deposed democratically elected governments,   killed hundreds of thousands of innocents, and ruthlessly exploited conquered lands is the USA.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Clearly, China is planning to take over the entire area. Hong Kong is now, in effect, a part of the Chinese mainland. The South China Sea is being inundated with Chinese man-made islands. It’s only a matter of time until they go after Taiwan. I figure they’ll finish what they’re doing in the South China Sea and then set their sights on Taiwan.

I don’t see that any coalition in that area will do much of anything; if they were going to stand up to China, they’d already have done so over the South China Sea. Russia seems to be looking for confrontation involving the West, not China; so, there’s probably going to be no help there. And the U.S. and Europe certainly are not going to get into a shooting war with China over Taiwan; I believe that would be the only way we might possibly make a difference as China seems to be pretty much oblivious to diplomatic and economic dealings from the West.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Hong Kong always was a part of China until the British imperialists decided to impose a mandatory loan of that land mass via a lease that expired a few years ago.  Hong Kong like Taiwan are, always have been, and always will be part of China.  
The government is only claiming what is rightfully theirs just like the USA did with South Carolina and the rest of the secessionists in the 1860s.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

True, Oldie, Hong Kong was always a part of China.  However, there's a treaty that's supposed to have lasted much longer than it did.  So,_ in my opinion_, China has taken over what it wasn't their legal right to take over _at this time_.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

By terms of the imperialistically imposed treaty, its expiration date was 1997:

https://www.google.com/search?q=tre...ome..69i57.10822j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



Had it not been for the imperialistic actions of the British navy and the genocidal Queen Victoria China would never have signed that treaty.


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## mellowyellow (Jun 7, 2021)

I think an important question needs to be asked - is the US prepared to go to war with China over Taiwan?  I sincerely hope not.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

And the opium wars and the whole bit, Oldie.   However, we're not talking here about how Britain got control of Hong Kong, but rather about how it's relinquished that control.

"In 1984, the U.K. and China signed the Sino-British Joint Declaration outlining their plan for Hong Kong.

"This declaration stipulated that Hong Kong would become a part of China on July 1, 1997, but that the 'current social and economic systems' and 'life-style' in Hong Kong would remain the same for 50 years. In this 'one country, two systems' arrangement, Hong Kong would continue operating in a capitalist economy, and residents would continue to have rights to speech, press, assembly and religious belief, among others—at least until 2047."

https://www.history.com/news/hong-kong-china-great-britain


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

I've replied to you, Oldie.  However, for some reason, my reply is awaiting moderator approval.  Hopefully, you'll get to see my quotations and citation.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> True, Oldie, Hong Kong was always a part of China.  However, there's a treaty that's supposed to have lasted much longer than it did.  So,_ in my opinion_, China has taken over what it wasn't their legal right to take over _at this time_.


Hong Kong didn't want a CCP takeover. There's horrible things happening to the people of Hong Kong now.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I think an important question needs to be asked - is the US prepared to go to war with China over Taiwan?  I sincerely hope not.





Exactly.  The USA has no special interest there at all so there is no reason to be involved.  We have enough problems in the USA with the police created holocaust in our streets. Let's solve problems like those here at home first before we become involved internationally.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Hong Kong didn't want a CCP takeover. There's horrible things happening to the people of Hong Kong now.





History shows the people in South Carolina did not want Washington DC to determine their fate but it got what was lawful.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Could you please explain your statement about South Carolina and Washington, D.C., Oldie?


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## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> History shows the people in South Carolina did not want Washington DC to determine their fate but it got what was lawful.


Why are we talking about events from 300 years ago? I just don't see the relevance.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

I don't believe the U.S. is prepared to go to war with anyone at this point.  We're getting out of Afghanistan and haven't gone into places like the eastern part of Ukraine even though we were signatories to the Budapest Memorandum:

"In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine' and 'to refrain from the threat or use of force' against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads."

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/orde...re-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/


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## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Could you please explain your statement about South Carolina and Washington, D.C., Oldie?


The people of the state of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the federal government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the states, fully justified this state in then withdrawing from the federal Union


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I don't believe the U.S. is prepared to go to war with anyone at this point.  We're getting out of Afghanistan and haven't gone into places like the eastern part of Ukraine even though we were signatories to the Budapest Memorandum:
> 
> "In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine' and 'to refrain from the threat or use of force' against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads."
> 
> https://www.brookings.edu/blog/orde...re-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/


We are prepared, but we'd rather not. We will if we have to; if Taiwan requests military support. The US and Britain already have ships there and more en route. We've sent diplomats and a military advisor to Taiwan and plan to send a higher ranking military advisor very soon.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Why are we talking about events from 300 years ago? I just don't see the relevance.






Because the Treaty between England and China (1840s) pre dates the Civil war (1860s).


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Thanks, Murrmurr.  Yikes!  I never thought about going back that far.

Oldie, the whole mess with Britain and China started a very long time ago; however, we're discussing what happened in 1997 and afterward.  As I see it, if we want to, we can go back to the unification of China and Britain; but _I believe _that at some point we have to deal with what's going on in the present and its proximate causes.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

That doesn't mean we'll go to war, Murrmurr.  We have ships in the South China Sea and aren't going to war over what China's doing there.  Besides, we don't go to war with the big powers; we hold proxy wars.


Murrmurr said:


> We are prepared, but we'd rather not. We will if we have to; if Taiwan requests military support. The US and Britain already have ships there and more en route. We've sent diplomats and a military advisor to Taiwan and plan to send a higher ranking military advisor very soon.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The people of the state of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the federal government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the states, fully justified this state in then withdrawing from the federal Union





And in 1869 the US Supreme Court ruled in *Texas v White* that secession was unconstitutional.

Texas v. White | law case | Britannica


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Thanks, Murrmurr.  Yikes!  I never thought about going back that far.
> 
> Oldie, the whole mess with Britain and China started a very long time ago; however, we're discussing what happened in 1997 and afterward.  As I see it, if we want to, we can go back to the unification of China and Britain; but _I believe _that at some point we have to deal with what's going on in the present and its proximate causes.





The events that occurred in 1997 were fully predicated upon the events that took place in the 1840s when the British navy forced the Chinese government with the threat of imperialistic war if it did not acceded to its colonialist plans. If the imperialists under genocidal Queen Victoria had not undertaken such proto Hitlerian depredations we would not be having such a discussion in the first place.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The events that occurred in 1997 were fully predicated upon the events that took place in the 1840s when the British navy forced the Chinese government with the threat of imperialistic war if it did not acceded to its colonialist plans. If the imperialists under genocidal Queen Victoria had not undertaken such proto Hitlerian depredations we would not be having such a discussion in the first place.


And if the Hans hadn't taken over China, none of that would have happened.  As I said previously, at some point we need to look at proximal causes.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> That doesn't mean we'll go to war, Murrmurr.  We have ships in the South China Sea and aren't going to war over what China's doing there.  Besides, we don't go to war with the big powers; we hold proxy wars.


It doesn't mean we won't, either. But like I said earlier; regarding Taiwan, particularly, I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures, believing their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunification and expansion through less obvious means.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> It doesn't mean we won't, either. But like I said earlier; regarding Taiwan, particularly, I don't think China will do much more than make threatening gestures, believing their military threats are a brilliant distraction while they work on reunification and expansion through less obvious means.


Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr?  I don't understand.  They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it.  That seems awfully obvious to me!

When was the last time we went to war with a strong country?  I believe it was WWII.  Everything since then has been proxy wars.  China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr?  I don't understand.  They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it.  That seems awfully obvious to me!
> 
> When was the last time we went to war with a strong country?  I believe it was WWII.  Everything since then has been proxy wars.  China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.


By less obvious I mean non-military; "Grey War".


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> And if the Hans hadn't taken over China, none of that would have happened.  As I said previously, at some point we need to look at proximal causes.





The Han conquest  pre dates Christianity. Of course, we could also say that if Anglo Saxons had stayed in Europe the Civil war would not have happened.  But more to the point is that the real cause of the issue at hand here is the imperialism that took place in the 1840s with China claiming what is rightfully theirs.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> By less obvious I mean non-military; "Grey War".


There's no question but that they're doing that.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The Han conquest  pre dates Christianity. Of course, we could also say that if Anglo Saxons had stayed in Europe the Civil war would not have happened.  But more to the point is that the real cause of the issue at hand here is the imperialism that took place in the 1840s with China claiming what is rightfully theirs.


My point is that the Chinese and the British signed an agreement in 1997.  The British were to return Hong Kong and Hong Kong would remain a democracy for 50 years.  The Chinese could have refused; they could have negotiated something different as Hong Kong was going back to them one way or another.  However, what _probably _happened (just my thoughts) is that the Chinese decided it was in their best interests to keep Hong Kong the way it was because of its being their financial interface with the rest of the world.  That changed and they didn't need it to play that role any longer.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> There's no question but that they're doing that.


Yes, but we aint seen nothin yet, imo. Up till now they've just been tinkering. They're capable of a whole lot more in that arena.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Yes, but we aint seen nothin yet, imo. Up till now they've just been tinkering. They're capable of a whole lot more in that arena.


Ohhhhh, you're so right!


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

At present Hong Kong has a legislature elected every 4 fours with an independent supreme court.  

GovHK: Residents (Homepage) (www.gov.hk)


That's as free as any country can get.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> At present Hong Kong has a legislature elected every 4 fours with an independent supreme court.
> 
> GovHK: Residents (Homepage) (www.gov.hk)
> 
> ...


And all of their pro-Democracy legislators are either in prison or in exile or keeping quiet.  I, personally, don't call that free.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> At present Hong Kong has a legislature elected every 4 fours with an independent supreme court.
> 
> GovHK: Residents (Homepage) (www.gov.hk)
> 
> ...


They certainly are not as free as any country can get. The CCP is arresting people in Hong Kong left and right, squelching peaceful protests, and disallowing a variety of annual celebrations and commemorations. And they've just started.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Expansion through less obvious means, Murrmurr?  I don't understand.  They're building islands in the South China Sea and doing their best to keep everyone else out of it.  That seems awfully obvious to me!
> 
> When was the last time we went to war with a strong country?  I believe it was WWII.  Everything since then has been proxy wars.  China is now too strong; if anything, we'll be in proxy wars against them.


According to The National Interest, those islands aren't holding up so well.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ds-are-falling-apart-and-sinking-ocean-132047


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> According to The National Interest, those islands aren't holding up so well.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ds-are-falling-apart-and-sinking-ocean-132047


Whether or not they are, the Chinese are still keeping shipping, etc. out.  As far as they're concerned, it's all Chinese territory.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> They certainly are not as free as any country can get. The CCP is arresting people in Hong Kong left and right, squelching peaceful protests, and disallowing a variety of annual celebrations and commemorations. And they've just started.




We've had similar government misconduct in Minneapolis and in other cities such as Portland, NYC, and Brooklyn. Police gassed innocent bystanders, slashed tires of automobiles, attacked reporters, and brutalized people who were exercising their constitutional rights.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> We've had similar government misconduct in Minneapolis and in other cities such as Portland, NYC, and Brooklyn. Police gassed innocent bystanders, slashed tires of automobiles, attacked reporters, and brutalized people who were exercising their constitutional rights.


Yes, but the protestors aren't getting jailed en masse for a possible lifetime sentence.  I'm not saying that what's going on here is a good thing, but it doesn't compare to what's happening in Hong Kong (although DeSantis and the Florida legislature would probably like it to).  I need to stop this or I'll probably get blocked for being political.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 7, 2021)

I'm in Florida and it's time for me to hit the sack.  Thank you for some good conversation.  Maybe it will continue tomorrow.  Good night!


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action.  In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights.  It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action.  In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights.  It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.


You won't get an argument on the facts from me, Oldie.  However, my opinion is that what's come of both of them is that the Hong Kong people are in a much less democratic situation than are the U.S. ones.  That said, the new law in Florida says that if _three _or more people congregate and there's _any_ violence (not defined) coming from _anywhere_, all are breaking the law; further, the punishments have been hardened.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> People will view things differently but as far as I'm concerned the government is more suppressive here. In Hong Kong the protests went on for months before the police took action.  In the USA, people were attacked by the government within hours for using their constitutional rights.  It's not a political statement but a fact that anyone can see from watching TV.


In the USA people _have_ constitutional rights, including the right to effect change in government and even civil services.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> In the USA people _have_ constitutional rights, including the right to effect change in government and even civil services.





This may be so in theory, in other words _de jure_ rights as opposed to _de facto_ . But in actual practice, such "rights" are often mythical. I would post videos of police brutality this past summer from youtube just to prove a point  but the admin/mods here would view them as political so it's best that I not post them.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> This may be so in theory, in other words _de jure_ rights as opposed to _de facto_ . But in actual practice, such "rights" are often mythical. *I would post videos of police brutality this past summer from youtube just to prove a point*  but the admin/mods here would view them as political so it's best that I not post them.


I wouldn't be impressed, anyway, as I could cite as many videos of dangerous and deadly assaults on police as well.

People who live in democratic/republics have rights they don't use, are too lazy to invoke, and some are just too set in their ways to vote for change or whatever. The facts is, we have the right and the power to make our country better. That's what sets us and other democracies apart from non-democratic countries.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> This may be so in theory, in other words _de jure_ rights as opposed to _de facto_ . But in actual practice, such "rights" are often mythical. I would post videos of police brutality this past summer from youtube just to prove a point  but the admin/mods here would view them as political so it's best that I not post them.


I don't think either of us who are posting would disagree with you, Oldie, that there's plenty of police brutality in the U.S.  I, for one, don't need convincing.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The facts is, we have the right and the power to make our country better. That's what sets us and other democracies apart from non-democratic countries.





Decades of vote suppression and gerrymandering minimize any such efforts especially in the south.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I don't think either of us who are posting would disagree with you, Oldie, that there's plenty of police brutality in the U.S.  I, for one, don't need convincing.




Unfortunately, many still do despite all the videos on YT and the books written on the subject.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Decades of vote suppression and gerrymandering minimize any such efforts especially in the south.


How true!  And we're now going backward.  (sigh)


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Unfortunately, many still do despite all the videos on YT and the books written on the subject.


I know.    So many people nowadays live in their information bubbles for one thing and can't live with cognitive dissonance for another.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Decades of vote suppression and gerrymandering minimize any such efforts especially in the south.


Which doesn't change the fact that people have the right to effect change.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Which doesn't change the fact that people have the right to effect change.


As they did in Georgia last November.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 8, 2021)

Odd, I thought this thread was about; 
The Inevitable Take Over Of Taiwan By China.​I had a few thoughts on the subject, but it'd be strangely off topic of the off topic....


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> As they did in Georgia last November.





Which is why the legislature is changing the law to insure it won't happen again thereby suppressing the rights of that state's majority voters.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Which is why the legislature is changing the law to insure it won't happen again thereby suppressing the rights of that state's majority voters.


And why it's happening in many states.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> And why it's happening in many states.





Interestingly, many in the USA clamor for our government to intervene in foreign affairs so as to insure that people retain their rights. Meantime, those same critics remain silent when pols work to insure that our domestic rights are restricted such as in those states.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Interestingly, many in the USA clamor for our government to intervene in foreign affairs so as to insure that people retain their rights. Meantime, those same critics remain silent when pols work to insure that our domestic rights are restricted such as in those states.


I know.  It's very sad.  And what hypocracy!


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Odd, I thought this thread was about;
> The Inevitable Take Over Of Taiwan By China.​I had a few thoughts on the subject, but it'd be strangely off topic of the off topic....


Bring it back around if you want, Gary. It'd be a breath of fresh air.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

> The Inevitable Take Over Of Taiwan By China​






> Bring it back around if you want​




OK.  I'll do it.  

Re the inevitable takeover ~ good.  Finally some small degree of justice for the people of China. Now let's have the British pay back reparations for the damage they did during those and the subsequent wars it imposed on that land.


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> OK.  I'll do it.
> 
> Re the inevitable takeover ~ good.  Finally some small degree of justice for the people of China. Now let's have the British pay back reparations for the damage they did during those and the subsequent wars it imposed on that land.


Why stop with the British and China?  Let's look at all of the imperialistic countries including the U.S.  Look what we did to the Native Americans and Hawaiians in addition to the Blacks, etc.  Look what the various European countries did all over the world.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Why stop with the British and China?  Let's look at all of the imperialistic countries including the U.S.  Look what we did to the Native Americans and Hawaiians in addition to the Blacks, etc.  Look what the various European countries did all over the world.


But why stop there? How 'bout we start bashing the Romans? The Huns? Muslims got away with quite a bit of conquering. Pretty sure there's a few dozen Nazis left.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> OK.  I'll do it.
> 
> Re the inevitable takeover ~ good.  Finally some small degree of justice for the people of China. Now let's have the British pay back reparations for the damage they did during those and the subsequent wars it imposed on that land.


I think you've been listening to some White Monkeys, oldie. But you're certainly welcome to your own opinion no matter who helped form it. It's a free country, after all.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 8, 2021)

Damn those Romans!


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Damn those Romans!


They owe just about everyone!


----------



## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> But why stop there? How 'bout we start bashing the Romans? The Huns? Muslims got away with quite a bit of conquering. Pretty sure there's a few dozen Nazis left.


My point exactly, Murrmurr.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Why stop with the British and China?  Let's look at all of the imperialistic countries including the U.S.  Look what we did to the Native Americans and Hawaiians in addition to the Blacks, etc.  Look what the various European countries did all over the world.





Yeah, why not?  Some Native American  tribes have pending lawsuits demanding that treaties be honored by the government.  After all, it's the law.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I think you've been listening to some White Monkeys, oldie. But you're certainly welcome to your own opinion no matter who helped form it. It's a free country, after all.





Didn't need any help.  It's just common sense.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 8, 2021)

This reminds me a bit of Vietnam, when they asked the US for help.   And look what happened.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> This reminds me a bit of Vietnam, when they asked the US for help.   And look what happened.


What happened was the people and leadership aligning with Ho Chi Min's ideology after they'd grown weary of foreign political interference, the US and allied forces destroying their country, and too much "collateral damage". We airlifted as many asylum-seeking Vietnamese citizens as we could, and we left. True, they asked for help, but after 20 years and a change in leadership, they chose the CCP.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

> mellowyellow said:
> This reminds me a bit of Vietnam, when they asked the US for help. And look what happened.





History shows that the people of Indochina resisted the imperialistic French forces that were hellbent on perpetuating their colonization of that country since the middle 1800s. The only people who asked for "help" from the USA were the puppet regime installed by the imperialists.  Funny how the USA joined the war in Europe to stop Nazi depredations in France and elsewhere but then it supported France  in its invasion of  Indochina and imposed Nazi style depredations on those people. 

Neither France nor the USA had any business invading or colonizing Indochina nor did it ever have any right to imposed Nazi style depredations like they did.  Supporting such imperialistic invasions in tantamount to supporting 20 or more attacks such as 9/11.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> History shows that the people of Indochina resisted the imperialistic French forces that were hellbent on perpetuating their colonization of that country since the middle 1800s. The only people who asked for "help" from the USA were the puppet regime installed by the imperialists.  Funny how the USA joined the war in Europe to stop Nazi depredations in France and elsewhere but then it supported France  in its invasion of  Indochina and imposed Nazi style depredations on those people.
> 
> Neither France nor the USA had any business invading or colonizing Indochina nor did it ever have any right to imposed Nazi style depredations like they did.  Supporting such imperialistic invasions in tantamount to supporting 20 or more attacks such as 9/11.


Assuming you live in the US, I hope you realize how fortunate you are that you can openly complain about the government and military as vehemently as you feel it deserves, without applying for permission and without fear of imprisonment and/or torture and/or death. 
Citizens of China, for example, and even their foreign visitors, do not enjoy that freedom.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Assuming you live in the US, I hope you realize how fortunate you are that you can openly complain about the government and military as vehemently as you feel it deserves, without applying for permission and without fear of imprisonment and/or torture and/or death.
> Citizens of China, for example, and even their foreign visitors, do not enjoy that freedom.




In a democracy it is government by the people.  Just in case you forgot, there is a Constitution whose birth was guaranteed by our Founding Fathers who voluntarily shed their blood to insure we would have such rights.  In their time, they did not envision invading foreign countries.  In fact they condemned standing armies and foreign interventionism. Nothing in the historical record would suggest that they would intervene in any way in Vietnam or Iraq.  On the contrary they would agree with everything I wrote.  Anyone who denies that doesn't know their history.


----------



## ohioboy (Jun 8, 2021)

The Monroe doctrine: Don't call us it's a toll call, iow, do not invade the Western Hemisphere. He should be alive to set straight China.


----------



## ohioboy (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> And in 1869 the US Supreme Court ruled in *Texas v White* that secession was unconstitutional.
> 
> Texas v. White | law case | Britannica


Post Civil War, if a State voted to do so, what do you think would have been the Fed's action?


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> The Monroe doctrine: Don't call us it's a toll call, iow, do not invade the Western Hemisphere. He should be alive to set straight China.





Monroe Doctrine - largely drawn by John Quincy Adams and intended to keep foreigners out of our territory.  Nothing in it to show our Founders approved of foreign invasion. By the way, it was endorsed by England.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 8, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Post Civil War, if a State voted to do so, what do you think would have been the Fed's action?





The federal government would have sent in "Buffalo Soldiers" to quell any insurrection.


----------



## ohioboy (Jun 8, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The federal government would have sent in "Buffalo Soldiers" to quell any insurrection.


Like they say on Family Fued, "Good answer, good answer".


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 9, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> In a democracy it is government by the people.  Just in case you forgot, there is a Constitution whose birth was guaranteed by our Founding Fathers who voluntarily shed their blood to insure we would have such rights.  In their time, they did not envision invading foreign countries.  In fact they condemned standing armies and foreign interventionism. Nothing in the historical record would suggest that they would intervene in any way in Vietnam or Iraq.  On the contrary they would agree with everything I wrote.  Anyone who denies that doesn't know their history.


And yet, here we are. And it would probably be courteous to stick to the OP's topic.

A couple of points, though; I think it's fair to say our Forefathers could not have imagined strategies of aggression involving computer technology, international extortion, biological warfare, etc. 

And according to Maritime Law, an attack on an American ship, whether merchant, cruise, or military, is the same as an attack on American soil. Just in case you forgot, that's what prompted the US to enter WWI and make changes in policy re:foreign wars and foreign affairs.

Anyway, after this, I'm going to be courteous to the OP.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 9, 2021)

^The USA was attacked in WW I + WWII thereby justifying retaliation. But this did not happen in Vietnam or Iraq so that the prolonged wars which generated multiple billions in war profits were not justified.


----------



## cdestroyer (Jun 9, 2021)

well I am debating whether to enter into this discussion or not...cause the facts are in error!
well okay here goes......wwi. the united states violated the nutrality agreements by sending military supplies to europe on a civilian ship..wwii and this is a biggie and I know will bring out a lot of backlash to me....first let me ask a question? why on earth would the president send the navy fleet from protecting the state of california and the west of america to a mere possesion thousands of miles away?...second question? why would hitler enlist the aid of the japanese to attack hawaii, what purpose would it serve japan thousands of miles away? and lastly I think this is all in the realm of politics and not allowed here but then yall brought up things posted above!!!!


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 9, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> well I am debating whether to enter into this discussion or not...cause the facts are in error!
> well okay here goes......wwi. the united states violated the nutrality agreements by sending military supplies to europe on a civilian ship..wwii and this is a biggie and I know will bring out a lot of backlash to me....first let me ask a question? why on earth would the president send the navy fleet from protecting the state of california and the west of america to a mere possesion thousands of miles away?...second question? why would hitler enlist the aid of the japanese to attack hawaii, what purpose would it serve japan thousands of miles away? and lastly I think this is all in the realm of politics and not allowed here but then yall brought up things posted above!!!!


Facts *as we know them* are often in error.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 9, 2021)

I'm wondering what will happen when Taiwan asks for help from the US.  The events of history will hopefully be foremost in his mind.


----------



## cdestroyer (Jun 9, 2021)

I guess it might come to a shooting sea battle between large fleets, china and the us and maybe a couple of the other countries in that region involved...could last a couple of years or be over in a flash!


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 9, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I'm wondering what will happen when Taiwan asks for help from the US.  The events of history will hopefully be foremost in his mind.


Taiwan has already asked for help - or maybe we offered it first - and they said they can handle it, but gladly accepted.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 9, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> I guess it might come to a shooting sea battle between large fleets, china and the us and maybe a couple of the other countries in that region involved...could last a couple of years or be over in a flash!


A HUGE flash, right?

But I honestly don't think it'll come to that. I think there'll be intense aggression from all sides (2, anyway) on a different front.


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## cdestroyer (Jun 9, 2021)

doesnt have to be a HUGE flash a couple of small ones should settle the matter rather quickly I would think!


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## Murrmurr (Jun 9, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> doesnt have to be a HUGE flash a couple of small ones should settle the matter rather quickly I would think!


That's quite possible. And probably not unlikely, come to think of it.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 9, 2021)

Flash?  Heck, if China does send in troops, all Taiwan need do is to say "we surrender".  End of the story.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2021)

It think there is a sticking point. Taiwan was considered a part of China. Chinese Nationalists fled China to Taiwan, and claimed it for themselves.  I I don't think it's naked aggression on the part of China to want its island back . They view Taiwan as a bastion of rebels, stealing their islands. I don't expect war, but humans have never been noted for their aversion to war. The diplomatic trick is to cede Taiwan to the Chinese, but not cede  Taiwan to the Chinese.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> It think there is a sticking point. Taiwan was considered a part of China. Chinese Nationalists fled China to Taiwan, and claimed it for themselves.  I I don't think it's naked aggression on the part of China to want its island back . They view Taiwan as a bastion of rebels, stealing their islands. I don't expect war, but humans have never been noted for their aversion to war. The diplomatic trick is to cede Taiwan to the Chinese, but not cede  Taiwan to the Chinese.


China considers Taiwan as China. The people of Taiwan consider themselves Chinese living in their own separate nation. Sadly, they've never been given that distinction officially, only in the eyes of a few country's governments, including the US gov't, and it's only an honorary distinction, basically.

Taiwan governs itself as a democracy. They have an elected government, a constitution, they have immigration laws and services, celebrate their own national holidays and so forth. The Chinese Nationalist Party leaders escaped from China to Taiwan to avoid their inevitable execution after the Chinese Communist Party brutally took over the country, and many thousand Chinese citizens escaped with them.

imo, Taiwan deserves to be recognized as a separate nation.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> China considers Taiwan as China. The people of Taiwan consider themselves Chinese living in their own separate nation. Sadly, they've never been given that distinction officially, only in the eyes of a few country's governments, including the US gov't, and it's only an honorary distinction, basically.
> 
> Taiwan governs itself as a democracy. They have an elected government, a constitution, they have immigration laws and services, celebrate their own national holidays and so forth. The Chinese Nationalist Party leaders escaped from China to Taiwan to avoid their inevitable execution after the Chinese Communist Party brutally took over the country, and many thousand Chinese citizens escaped with them.
> 
> imo, Taiwan deserves to be recognized as a separate nation.


There was a time when Taiwan was considered by the world to be China; the Chinese seat on the U.N. Security Council was theirs.  One never knows what the future will bring.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

Something interesting that you might already know @fuzzybuddy ; The CCP brags all the time (especially to the citizens of China) about how they raised China out of poverty. Well, first of all, the CCP was the _cause_ of their devastating poverty. They turned China into an agricultural nation, forcing successful businessmen/women, professors, doctors, etc, to become farmers, and then exporting more food than they kept to feed their own people. Tens of thousands starved to death or died of disease. 

What actually raised people out of poverty was the CCP's "experiment" in capitalism.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> There was a time when Taiwan was considered by the world to be China; the Chinese seat on the U.N. Security Council was theirs.  One never knows what the future will bring.


It gets so confusing (for me, anyway). Mainland China is governed by the communist party of China, the CCP, and is recognized as the people's republic of China, the PRC, while Taiwan is known as the Republic of China, the ROC.

The Republic of China's (Taiwan's) most recent request for admission to the UN was turned down in 2007, but a number of European governments (led by the US) protested to the UN, asking that it's legal body stop using the phrase "Taiwan is a part of China".

It will be very interesting to see what the future will bring.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> It gets so confusing (for me, anyway). Mainland China is governed by the communist party of China, the CCP, and is recognized as the people's republic of China, the PRC, while Taiwan is known as the Republic of China, the ROC.
> 
> The Republic of China's (Taiwan's) most recent request for admission to the UN was turned down in 2007, but a number of European governments (led by the US) protested to the UN, asking that it's legal body stop using the phrase "Taiwan is a part of China".
> 
> It will be very interesting to see what the future will bring.


So much in politics is constantly in flux.  I could go on about this, but I'd be blocked.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> It think there is a sticking point. Taiwan was considered a part of China. Chinese Nationalists fled China to Taiwan, and claimed it for themselves.  I I don't think it's naked aggression on the part of China to want its island back . *They view Taiwan as a bastion of rebels, stealing their islands.* I don't expect war, but humans have never been noted for their aversion to war. The diplomatic trick is to cede Taiwan to the Chinese, but not cede  Taiwan to the Chinese.





As I've said all along, China views Taiwan precisely like the USA viewed South Carolina in 1860.  There simply is no difference whatsoever.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> As I've said all along, China views Taiwan precisely like the USA viewed South Carolina in 1860.  There simply is no difference whatsoever.


I disagree with the Chinese view -- assuming this is the case.  South Carolina was a settled land in a country with a political system of which it was a part.  Taiwan and China had a different history.  China went through a revolution and became a country with a political system that previously hadn't existed there; the Taiwanese left their areas of settlement to gain refuge.  The people in South Carolina never left their homes.  They seceded from their country which hadn't changed its political system.  The war started not because the slaves in South Carolina were to be freed (which wasn't the case), but rather because of the tension between the North and South over whether or not the new states would be slave or free.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> As I've said all along, China views Taiwan precisely like the USA viewed South Carolina in 1860.  There simply is no difference whatsoever.


Ok, let's go there. If SoCarolina had successfully suceeded from the Union, and 300 years later (in that case), the US federal gov't forced SoCarolina to reunite with the union, claiming that it's sucession was never recognized, would that be fair to SoCarolina?


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Ok, let's go there. If SoCarolina had successfully suceeded from the Union, and 300 years later (in that case), the US federal gov't forced SoCarolina to reunite with the union, claiming that it's sucession was never recognized, would that be fair to SoCarolina?





Question is moot since secession was declared illegal.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Question is moot since secession was declared illegal.


China and Taiwan are literally living that scenario. You asked that people on this thread consider the comparison to SoCarolina, saying "There simply is no difference whatsoever"...now you're saying it's a moot point. 
I'm done.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I disagree with the Chinese view -- assuming this is the case.  South Carolina was a settled land in a country with a political system of which it was a part.  Taiwan and China had a different history.  China went through a revolution and became a country with a political system that previously hadn't existed there; the Taiwanese left their areas of settlement to gain refuge.  The people in South Carolina never left their homes.  They seceded from their country which hadn't changed its political system.  The war started not because the slaves in South Carolina were to be freed (which wasn't the case), but rather because of the tension between the North and South over whether or not the new states would be slave or free.






History shows Chiang Kai Shek fled China, annexed Taiwan, and proclaimed it to be the Republic of China.  He took what wasn't his. Therefore, he had no right to the land or to claim that his government represented China.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> China and Taiwan are literally living that scenario. You asked that people on this thread consider the comparison to SoCarolina, saying "There simply is no difference whatsoever"...now you're saying it's a moot point.
> I'm done.




Moot because it had no right to secede.  It was the Supreme Court that said there is no right to secession.  In your question you ask that an assumption be made that secession was recognized.  That is a legal impossibility.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> History shows Chiang Kai Shek fled China, annexed Taiwan, and proclaimed it to be the Republic of China.  He took what wasn't his. Therefore, he had no right to the land or to claim that his government represented China.


Whether he had a right or not isn't the discussion.  This was a reply to your statement:  "As I've said all along, China views Taiwan precisely like the USA viewed South Carolina in 1860.  There simply is no difference whatsoever."


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Whether he had a right or not isn't the discussion.  This was a reply to your statement:  "As I've said all along, China views Taiwan precisely like the USA viewed South Carolina in 1860.  There simply is no difference whatsoever."





I stand by what I said - there simply is no right of secession. When Madrid sent in its troops to stop Catalonian secessionists nobody in Washington DC raised even the slightest objection.  This despite the fact that Catalonia existed as a civilization long before Spain did. If the USA is obligated in some way to defend Taiwan from Beijing then it is equally obligated to scream *Catalunya Lliure *and to defend its secession as well.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I stand by what I said - there simply is no right of secession. When Madrid sent in its troops to stop Catalonian secessionists nobody in Washington DC raised even the slightest objection.  This despite the fact that Catalonia existed as a civilization long before Spain did. If the USA is obligated in some way to defend Taiwan from Beijing then it is equally obligated to scream *Catalunya Lliure *and to defend its secession as well.


I think it _probably _has something to do with treaties.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I think it _probably _has something to do with treaties.





I would like to see a treaty between Beijing and Washington DC which mentions the topic.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I would like to see a treaty between Beijing and Washington DC which mentions the topic.


I'm talking about the U.S. and Taiwan.  I don't know for sure (the reason I said "probably"), but I believe there is one concerning Taiwan's defense.


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## Pepper (Jun 10, 2021)

If Beijing takes Taiwan there is nothing any country can or will do about it.  There will be squawking at first then it will die down.  It's not in China's best interests for now.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

Pepper said:


> If Beijing takes Taiwan there is nothing any country can or will do about it.  There will be squawking at first then it will die down.  It's not in China's best interests for now.


True.  The same thing happened in Crimea.


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## mellowyellow (Jun 10, 2021)

I feel sorry for the Taiwanese people, like the citizens of Hong Kong, they have experienced the freedom of democracy and don’t want to give it up, it would break your heart, but like Hong Kong, Taiwan belongs to China IMO.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 10, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I'm talking about the U.S. and Taiwan.  I don't know for sure (the reason I said "probably"), but I believe there is one concerning Taiwan's defense.





The USA is a member of the UN which only recognizes Beijing as the exclusive government of all of China.  The UN does not recognize Taiwan nor should it or anyone else do so.  On that basis any "treaty" between Washington DC and Taipei is illegitimate.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The USA is a member of the UN which only recognizes Beijing as the exclusive government of all of China.  The UN does not recognize Taiwan nor should it or anyone else do so.  On that basis any "treaty" between Washington DC and Taipei is illegitimate.


All of the countries of the world do illegitimate things.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 18, 2021)

Only a NATO force could be effective but I am not sure sure NATO would want to. It is not just Taiwan China sees themselves as the master of all of Asia.


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