# Tertiary Education and Student Loans



## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

This is very topical in Australia ATM because our government is trying to cut funding to universities, deregulate fees and convert our reasonably affordable Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) to student loans at the government bond rate. They are also planning to extend the student loans to our trade colleges (TAFE) which is our cheapest trade training system.

This is John Oliver on the US system. He's very funny but the issue is serious. Student debt in America is more than total credit card debt and second only to mortgage debt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8pjd1QEA0c

Any comments from your experience with the children and grandchildren?


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Kids can still live at home and commute to college and work to avoid deep debt...


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## JustQuinn (Sep 9, 2014)

but you are talking about  community  colleges  arent you ralphy?  (similar to our  TAFEs)  rather than  what is  generally   accepted  by "university"


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Kids can still live at home and commute to college and work to avoid deep debt...



Australian tertiary students are more likely to do this than reside at the universities than US students. Even so, the fees, unless subsidised, are quite heavy and they are going up as the government reduces funding.


What did you think about the predatory practices of some private colleges as they recruit clients?


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

No, there are enough tech schools, community colleges, colleges and universities available, at least in many states, to make this feasible.  Most of my friends, relatives and myself are products of these systems (don't try to read too much into that)...


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## JustQuinn (Sep 9, 2014)

ralphy  as an  example  the  cost of a  Government  subsidised  medical  degree in Australia  is at the moment  $36000.  (in total)    .  How  much  would  an American  pay  for  a  simlilar  qualification in USA.?    I  am  assuming that  a  qualification likethat  would  not  be  offered  at  the  local  community  college.
DW    even if  Joe  succeeds  in deregulating  Uni  costs   I  doubt  that  they will  climb  to anything  like  the  Costs  in America.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

To go all the way thru medical school and maybe gaining a specialty after that would be beyond the means of most but those coming from families that are well off.  For those just going for four years there are combinations of Pell grants, scholarships, loans, family support, and work that put the average kid thru...


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

JustQuinn said:


> ralphy  as an  example  the  cost of a  Government  subsidised  medical  degree in Australia  is at the moment  $36000.  (in total)    .  How  much  would  an American  pay  for  a  simlilar  qualification in USA.?    I  am  assuming that  a  qualification likethat  would  not  be  offered  at  the  local  community  college.
> DW    even if  Joe  succeeds  in deregulating  Uni  costs   I  doubt  that  they will  climb  to anything  like  the  Costs  in America.


It's more what will happen to TAFE that worries ne. Private VET schools are being advanced at the expense of TAFE funding. Think about the design school that Frances Abbott attended. Very expensive, soon to be issuing degrees but ATM not part of HECS. Once they are, poorer students will enrol and get no more than they would at a TAFE course but be saddled with a heavy student loan at compound interest.

Four of my grandkids left school and did TAFE studies before going to Uni. Even the HECS fees were then too much to risk enrolling before knowing which course they really wanted to follow. One is intellectually disabled and did a supported apprenticeship at TAFE. She has no debt which is just as well because she is not having any luck getting and holding a job.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Hope your disabled grandkid finds a job soon...


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

She's working on it but she's 27 yo and the longer she's out of work the less likely it is.
She's already deskilled with regard to her apprenticeship.

Fortunately for her the disability is genetic and is never going to improve so she is entitled to a disability pension which is enough (just) for her to live independently in a rented granny flat.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

That is unfortunate as far as a job goes and good that she can live independently...


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

Unfortunately she has a boyfriend and they seem to be a compatible couple.  They would like to set up a joint household but that would mean the loss of her disability pension. He has work but he doesn't earn enough to support a wife.

It's a shame that two people cannot marry for lack of work when both are wanting to have employment.

I should explain that GD had triple X syndrome (normal females are XX but she is XXX) and is only slightly intellectually disabled but there are other health defiicits that go with it.


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## Geezerette (Sep 9, 2014)

Seems to me that my parents' generation, that got thru the Depression& WW II made it a priority to save what they could for their kids education, even if it meant going without luxuries. seems like now, a lot of middle class families are just spending on anything they and/or their kids want, & figure they'll worry about cobbling together college tuition somehow when the time comes. I've seen tho, how the private for profit colleges & tech schools are generating big bills & loans &generating false   hopes for a lot of adult learners hoping to better their employment prospects.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

That is a difficult situation.  Perhaps they could spend weekends together someplace, visit during the week and not do a formal wedding, but what would having children or not having children bring to the equation...


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

They have sleepovers but do not live as a couple. IMO they could form a stable union but for the financial problems.

Having children is not an issue ATM because of a contraceptive implant. Before having children there would need to be genetic counselling and possibly invitro fertilisation. Half of her ova would be normal (X) and the other half would be XX and should be avoided. The future problem with having children is not that they might be disabled but that they could be very intelligent. Her brother is extremely bright, learnt to read by himself before starting school, excellent at maths and a musician. He is now a qualified sound engineer. She could have children that she won't know how to parent but as long as her mother and I are alive, she will have help. However, she is very good with little children and does get a bit of babysitting work. It's the teenage years that will be the most difficult.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Seems like she has a good support network but it could be an unsustainable struggle with children involved as we all know how difficult parenting can be under the best of circumstances...


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

She has a good support network but parenting can be difficult under the best of circumstances...


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

A dratted double post!  Sometimes the forum does not show a reply right away...


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

She also has two sisters and a brother and her boyfriend has a mother but his father died just over a year ago. 
What we are trying to do is help her to learn how she can access help as needed.
She loves op shops and I've taught her to shop economically for food like an old lady.
She has a drivers' licence but can't afford to run a car and her apprenticeship was in hospitality kitchen  operations so she can cook, and as I said, she has a way with little children.

The ideal job for her would be working in the kitchen of an aged care nursing home, as long as she was just a kitchen hand and not the primary cook. She trained in a residential facility for people with disabilities and they churned out 900 meals per day. She working on her job readiness at a special agency but she's done this before without getting a suitable opportunity.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Couldn't a government agency help her find a job?  I worked for awhile as a vocational rehab counselor with the visually impaired and blind and there were other programs that dealt with situations like hers...?


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

The government subsidises private providers. That's as far as they are prepared to go because we are now in the era of small government and outsourcing of government agencies.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Yes, and it seems like that may be in our future if it is not happening now.  It makes one wonder what happens to those with physical and mental problems in so many poor parts of the world.  Warehoused at best I guess...


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 9, 2014)

Here in the U.S. we've gone thorugh more than two generation cycles of telling kids they MUST have a college degree to have a career.  We have sold the U.S. corporate world on human resourse software that will kick out job applications if there is no college degree listed.  The result is that we have lost our trades and crafts.  No one knows how... or wants to... get their hands dirty.  They want to sit in cube, operate computers, and become the next Fortune 500 CEO.  
With the "forced" education, kids are running up horrendous student loan debt.  I've seen kids come out of graduate school... with degrees in fields where there is zero demand... oweing over $100,000.  What the colleges don't teach is this.  What will you make in an entry level position?  What will you be forced to pay towards college loans from that salary.  If an entry level job pays $40,000 and in ten years the person might be making $80,000, can he/she afford $10,000/year to pay off the college loans in those same 10 years?  Do they understand whatever they must pay back in loans is the same as drawing that much less salary??

If we transition to a "cash" basis for college, only the privileged will become educated and now we further the divide between classes.  I would be in favor of this.  Upon graduation from high school, you have the choice of finding a job or going to college.  If you enter the workforce and are gainfully employed for 5 years, you will have government subsidized college available.  That way, more would find a field they like and want to excell in.  Their college could be more tailored to be a benefit in that field.


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## Susie (Sep 9, 2014)

Interesting video, Warrigal!
Many of us were lucky enough to receive a "free education" (I could barely afford 2nd hand books at the time).
But should uni be entirely free for young people who feel 'entitled' to only the best? Shouldn't at some point these spoiled young people be made responsible for their actions (refers to middle class).
(Some countries, e.g. Denmark, pay students to study for their PHD at their uni).
However, as you pointed out, Grumpy Ol' Man, should a young person be lumbered with a $100,000 debt for ten years?
And what chance does a bright, gifted young person have from a working class background?


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## Warrigal (Sep 9, 2014)

> And what chance does a bright, gifted young person have from a working class background?


or from a large family?

I went to uni the first time around on a teachers' scholarship. It paid my tuition and a living at home allowance and for that I was obligated to teach in the public school system for five years and go where I was appointed. Without that my parents could not have afforded the fees and I was academically bright so I would have been wasted working in the public service as a filing clerk.

Unfortunately I was very young, just 17 yo for my first year and I crashed badly in the second year. I could not repeat on the scholarship so I quit uni and moved to the Teachers' College to finish off as a junior high school teacher.

Later, when my children were finishing their schooling I returned to university studies while working full time as an assistant principal and studied more education, sciences and mathematics and refreshed my teaching so that I was more effective at handling children with learning difficulties and also gifted and talented students. At that time university tuition was fully paid for by the government and all I had to pay were the admin charges. This situation allowed young mothers to use their time out of the workforce to prepare for careers once the children were less dependent. It also helped capable single mothers to become self supporting. It helped everyone in fact. Second degrees were not included in this scheme.

I received no extra pay for the extra study but the students benefited enormously. Education is not just a private good. It can be a public good to which it is reasonable to ask the taxpayer to make a contribution. It is stupid policy to price bright, gifted students for working class backgrounds out of careers that will allow them to contribute their gifts to society.

That system is now long gone.


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## JustQuinn (Sep 9, 2014)

I  received   a  totally free  university  education  both undergraduate and post  graduate  degrees  (only had to pay student union  fees  )as a  gift  from the  Australian labor party  under the  Prime Ministership of  Gough Whitlam.  Like  DW  says   that  system has long gone.  While it was with us  ,  it  enabled  students  of  poor  backgrounds  to  educate themselves ...and  , of  course    we had  the  pick of jobs  when we  graduated.


Our  children  have not  been so lucky.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 10, 2014)

My university education was partially funded by what was known as National Defense loans and you only had to pay half of them back if you prepared to teach (Russia was ahead of us in the space race and our govt thought we needed better education to catch up).  I also had 75% of tuition paid for courses I took while in the service in the Philippines and in Texas.  And later on I received one graduate degree in counseling completely free during LBJ's Great Society.  Whether these programs exist today I do not know.  More likely they have been replaced with Pell grants, veterans benefits, etc....


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## JustQuinn (Sep 10, 2014)

Difference  is , Ralphy   everyone  who got the marks qualified for  a  free university  education over  here...you didnt need to be a  veteran.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 10, 2014)

No, I wasn't using veteran benefits as I was in service between them.  The programs I used were govt programs that were available under certain conditions, especially graduate degrees in certain areas that would enhance your skills while working in govt sponsored programs...


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## JustQuinn (Sep 10, 2014)

yes, and we  could  get a  free education for any degree of our chosing   with  no  fees  whatsoever...but it is  all academic  now  as those  days have  now passed...just makes  me  feel  that  being a  baby  boomer  born in Australia     I  won the  lottery of life.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 10, 2014)

You sure did.  I went to graduate school in history as an independent student and managed a year before my resources ran out and got a job for the govt that wasn't interested in people pursuing advanced degrees in history.  They were interested in  people who wanted to pursue counseling degrees, however and paid the way making my life much easier...


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