# Well, pat my back and call me a conspiracy nut.



## squatting dog

We “paranoid conspiracy nut's” have been warning that this would happen for the past year and a half. People who refuse to convert to the new official ideology and get the experimental jab are now being segregated, stripped of their jobs, banned from attending schools, denied medical treatment, and otherwise persecuted.


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## Gaer

Yup!


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## chic

squatting dog said:


> We “paranoid conspiracy nut's” have been warning that this would happen for the past year and a half. People who refuse to convert to the new official ideology and get the experimental jab are now being segregated, stripped of their jobs, banned from attending schools, denied medical treatment, and otherwise persecuted.


What? Has something else happened I'm not aware of? I'm not playing "covid" anymore. I'm tired of this and will just live my life and dare to enjoy it. People can call me whatever they wish.


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## squatting dog

chic said:


> What? Has something else happened I'm not aware of? I'm not playing "covid" anymore. I'm tired of this and will just live my life and dare to enjoy it.


Sadly, the time is coming where you won't be able to just live your life, much less enjoy it. 
There isn't a day goes by that you won't here of someone, somewhere losing their job, banned from schooling, and worse yet, denied medical care. Of course, mainstream pravda... I mean media will never let the truth be known.
For example, kind of like this supposed government mandate that really doesn't exist. There is no official Govt. mandate, but, try telling that to the stupids that believe everything the boob tube tells them. smh.


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## Packerjohn

I am sick and tired of the media and those stupid photos of those long sticks being shoved up people's noses.  This has been going on now for pretty well 20 months.  When I see those daily titles in the media:  "Coronavirus: What's Happening in Canada and the world" I never read them.  I wish those 20/30 year old would stop trying to look sexy behind the masks and do some good in this world like figure out how to stop climate change.  I got my passport, I'm moving to a new apartment at the end of next month and the best of all, I GOT A LIFE.  I don't need media "doom and gloom".


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## Pepper

You're a conspiracy nut and if we were in the same room I'd pat your back.  Well, you asked!


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## chic

squatting dog said:


> Sadly, the time is coming where you won't be able to just live your life, much less enjoy it.
> There isn't a day goes by that you won't here of someone, somewhere losing their job, banned from schooling, and worse yet, denied medical care. Of course, mainstream pravda... I mean media will never let the truth be known.
> For example, kind of like this supposed government mandate that really doesn't exist. There is no official Govt. mandate, but, try telling that to the stupids that believe everything the boob tube tells them.


There are "emergency" mandates which is why the govt. keeps extending the state of emergency because a mandate is NOT a law. For mandates to be law it would take legislation from congress. So this govt. really has no right to be to be forcing its citizens to take an experimental drug or lose this or that. Most people comply to make their lives easier. I'm sticking to my principles.


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## Shero

Well, I have mentally "patted your back" and called you the name you called yourself  and I feel good about it.

What's new in Australia? The government is mandating at a fast rate. In some parts of Australia it has been mandated that if employers do not make sure their workers are vaccinated they pay a fine of $100,000 and for each worker it is $20, 000. Saw on  the news last night, footballers have to be vaccinated in this country or they are sacked!
Je t’aime Australia


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## MrPants

Everyone wants to make their own choice on this issue because there's no clear and absolute right choice that fits everyone. Along with that freedom of choice comes the consequences of making your choice.

Those who choose to be vaccinated may suffer horrible reactions to the vaccine immediately or at some point in the future. They made their choice so don't complain if things go off the rails.

Those who choose to be unvaccinated may suffer the consequences of limited freedom of movement in pubic and/or employment opportunities. They made their choice so don't complain if that's the way things go.

The only difference is, those that are unvaccinated can still change their mind. Not so much with those who are already vaccinated.


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## Shero

MrPants said:


> Everyone wants to make their own choice on this issue because there's no clear and absolute right choice that fits everyone. Along with that freedom of choice comes the consequences of making your choice.
> 
> Those who choose to be vaccinated may suffer horrible reactions to the vaccine immediately or at some point in the future. They made their choice so don't complain if things go off the rails.
> 
> Those who choose to be unvaccinated may suffer the consequences of limited freedom of movement in pubic and/or employment opportunities. They made their choice so don't complain if that's the way things go.
> 
> The only difference is, those that are unvaccinated can still change their mind. Not so much with those who are already vaccinated.


Lord give me patience!


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## chic

MrPants said:


> Everyone wants to make their own choice on this issue because there's no clear and absolute right choice that fits everyone. Along with that freedom of choice comes the consequences of making your choice.
> 
> Those who choose to be vaccinated may suffer horrible reactions to the vaccine immediately or at some point in the future. They made their choice so don't complain if things go off the rails.
> 
> Those who choose to be unvaccinated may suffer the consequences of limited freedom of movement in pubic and/or employment opportunities. They made their choice so don't complain if that's the way things go.
> 
> The only difference is, those that are unvaccinated can still change their mind. Not so much with those who are already vaccinated.


What about the poor innocent children they want to jab. They're not making any decision yet may suffer for the government's decision for them.


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## Becky1951

chic said:


> What about the poor innocent children they want to jab. They're not making any decision yet may suffer for the government's decision for them.


Protests in CA by parents and teachers over the vaccine mandate of children. 

Pretty much the same story by different news outlets, some differ in details.

Parents Protest California COVID Vaccine Mandate for Kids
https://www.usnews.com › ... › California News



3 days ago — Newsom's _mandate_, announced earlier this month, made _California_ the first state in the country to say it will require the COVID-19 _vaccine_ for ...

Over 1000 protest California's COVID-19 mandate for students​https://www.sacbee.com › education › article254689552



2 days ago — Over 1,000 people attend rally _protesting California's vaccine mandate_ for _children_. By Sawsan Morrar. Updated October 19, 2021 6:46 PM.

Parents keep kids home from school to protest ... - KTLA​https://ktla.com › news › local-news › california-parents...



3 days ago — Parents keep _kids_ home from school to _protest California_ COVID _vaccine mandate_ ... Across _California_, some parents kept their _children_ home from ...

Parents protest California student COVID-19 vaccine mandate​https://www.latimes.com › california › story › california...



3 days ago — Adults and _kids_ hold signs at a street corner against COVID _vaccine mandates_. Parents and students hold signs and shout at a _protest_ Monday ...

Parents not happy with California student vaccine mandate ...​https://www.kcra.com › article › california-student-vacc...



2 days ago — _California_ parents against the _mandate_ were also expected to keep their _kids_ home from school as part of the _protest_. Advertisement. The _mandate_ ...

Parents Protest California COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate for Kids​https://www.nbcbayarea.com › news › coronavirus › pa...



3 days ago — More than a thousand people crowded the front steps of the _California_ Capitol on Monday to _protest_ Gov. Gavin Newsom's decision to require all ...


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## MrPants

Shero said:


> Well, I have mentally "patted your back" and called you the name you called yourself  and I feel good about it.
> 
> What's new in Australia? The government is mandating at a fast rate. In some parts of Australia it has been mandated that if employers do not make sure their workers are vaccinated they pay a fine of $100,000 and for each worker it is $20, 000. Saw on  the news last night, footballers have to be vaccinated in this country or they are sacked!
> Je t’aime Australia


I believe Canada is even further advanced than Australia in terms of Vaccine mandates for employment & restriction of movement in public for those who are unvaccinated.
Myself, and any other vaccinated person, require a vaccine passport to access pretty much any indoor public place and some outdoor places such as concerts or sports venues. It's an image you download and is tied to one's health card ID. It has a QR code image that is scanned at the entrance to any non-essential public place. The list of places that require this is huge. Pretty much everywhere other than healthcare facility, food store or pharmacy (drug store). The facility scans your QR code and it's either a green checkmark or a red X. (Red X & you're barred from entry).

Starting Oct. 30th here's the next Federal mandate that comes into effect:
Mandatory vaccination to board​Vaccination is one of the most effective ways to fight COVID-19 and the Government of Canada is taking action to better protect the health and safety of travellers and to increase travel safety. It will also help to get as many Canadians vaccinated as possible.

*Starting October 30, 2021*: if you are 12 years of age or older, you will need to be fully vaccinated in order to board:

domestic or international flights departing from airports in Canada
VIA Rail and Rocky Mountaineer trains
non-essential passenger vessels, such as cruise ships, on voyages of 24 hours or more departing from ports in Canada, once voyages resume
The point of my original post is that heavy handed restrictions for those who remain unvaccinated are coming (worldwide I believe). People can still choose to be unvaccinated but that choice will come with serious consequences, like it or not.
On the other hand, those that have chosen to be vaccinate may learn 2 years from now that there's some kind of delayed serious health issue due to the vaccine they received. I don't believe that will happen but no one can say assuredly that something won't crop up down the road. That too would be a serious consequence.


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> Lord give me patience!


I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?

Oh wait....that could work!


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## Becky1951

MrPants said:


> I believe Canada is even further advanced than Australia in terms of Vaccine mandates for employment & restriction of movement in public for those who are unvaccinated.
> Myself, and any other vaccinated person, require a vaccine passport to access pretty much any indoor public place and some outdoor places such as concerts or sports venues. It's an image you download and is tied to one's health card ID. It has a QR code image that is scanned at the entrance to any non-essential public place. The list of places that require this is huge. Pretty much everywhere other than healthcare facility, food store or pharmacy (drug store). The facility scans your QR code and it's either a green checkmark or a red X. (Red X & you're barred from entry).
> 
> Starting Oct. 30th here's the next Federal mandate that comes into effect:
> Mandatory vaccination to board​Vaccination is one of the most effective ways to fight COVID-19 and the Government of Canada is taking action to better protect the health and safety of travellers and to increase travel safety. It will also help to get as many Canadians vaccinated as possible.
> 
> *Starting October 30, 2021*: if you are 12 years of age or older, you will need to be fully vaccinated in order to board:
> 
> domestic or international flights departing from airports in Canada
> VIA Rail and Rocky Mountaineer trains
> non-essential passenger vessels, such as cruise ships, on voyages of 24 hours or more departing from ports in Canada, once voyages resume
> The point of my original post is that heavy handed restrictions for those who remain unvaccinated are coming (worldwide I believe). People can still choose to be unvaccinated but that choice will come with serious consequences, like it or not.
> On the other hand, those that have chosen to be vaccinate may learn 2 years from now that there's some kind of delayed serious health issue due to the vaccine they received. I don't believe that will happen but no one can say assuredly that something won't crop up down the road. That too would be a serious consequence.


"I don't believe that will happen but no one can say assuredly that something won't crop up down the road. That too would be a serious consequence."

And if it did, think of all the currently vaccinated people needing medical care. All the unvaccinated medical professionals would be called into service and they would be overwhelmed by the numbers of patients. And what of the costs of those high numbers of those needing medical care?


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?
> 
> Oh wait....that could work!



Why the tragique outburst? Very unnecessary since I was addressing a post by Mr Pants (whom I like by the way) not you. I did not want to upset him by replying that I disagreed with much of his post. Would you like to apologise to me? Here is the thing: I am a US citizen, BUT I do not make any laws, I follow them!


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## Shero

MrPants said:


> I believe Canada is even further advanced than Australia in terms of Vaccine mandates for employment & restriction of movement in public for those who are unvaccinated.
> Myself, and any other vaccinated person, require a vaccine passport to access pretty much any indoor public place and some outdoor places such as concerts or sports venues. It's an image you download and is tied to one's health card ID. It has a QR code image that is scanned at the entrance to any non-essential public place. The list of places that require this is huge. Pretty much everywhere other than healthcare facility, food store or pharmacy (drug store). The facility scans your QR code and it's either a green checkmark or a red X. (Red X & you're barred from entry).
> 
> Starting Oct. 30th here's the next Federal mandate that comes into effect:
> Mandatory vaccination to board​Vaccination is one of the most effective ways to fight COVID-19 and the Government of Canada is taking action to better protect the health and safety of travellers and to increase travel safety. It will also help to get as many Canadians vaccinated as possible.
> 
> *Starting October 30, 2021*: if you are 12 years of age or older, you will need to be fully vaccinated in order to board:
> 
> domestic or international flights departing from airports in Canada
> VIA Rail and Rocky Mountaineer trains
> non-essential passenger vessels, such as cruise ships, on voyages of 24 hours or more departing from ports in Canada, once voyages resume
> The point of my original post is that heavy handed restrictions for those who remain unvaccinated are coming (worldwide I believe). People can still choose to be unvaccinated but that choice will come with serious consequences, like it or not.
> On the other hand, those that have chosen to be vaccinate may learn 2 years from now that there's some kind of delayed serious health issue due to the vaccine they received. I don't believe that will happen but no one can say assuredly that something won't crop up down the road. That too would be a serious consequence.


Perhaps. But it is a chance we have to take. To me the way is either I double vax and have a booster (also my family) or face death if I have covid. I choose the former.


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## Ruthanne

Here we go again....this is getting old.


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## Becky1951

Murrmurr said:


> I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?
> 
> Oh wait....that could work!


Of course this is only geared towards the homeless....... for now.

Operational Considerations for Humanitarian Settings
Updated July 26, 2020

This document presents considerations from the perspective of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) for implementing the shielding approach in humanitarian settings as outlined in guidance documents focused on camps, displaced populations and low-resource settings.*1,2 *This approach has never been documented and has raised questions and concerns among humanitarian partners who support response activities in these settings. The purpose of this document is to highlight potential implementation challenges of the shielding approach from CDC’s perspective and guide thinking around implementation in the absence of empirical data. Considerations are based on current evidence known about the transmission and severity of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) and may need to be revised as more information becomes available. Please check the CDC website periodically for updates.
What is the Shielding Approach1?​The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting.*1,2 *They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.
Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19.*3 *In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population.*4,5 * For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.
In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence*1,6,7*, to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.
A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See _Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings_* 1,2* for full details.
*Table 1: Summary of the Shielding Approach1
Level
Movement/ Interactions
Household (HH) Level:*
A specific room/area designated for high-risk individuals who are physically isolated from other HH members.
Low-risk HH members should not enter the green zone. If entry is necessary, it should be done only by healthy individuals after washing hands and using face coverings. Interactions should be at a safe distance (approx. 2 meters). Minimum movement of high-risk individuals outside the green zone. Low-risk HH members continue to follow social distancing and hygiene practices outside the house.
*Neighborhood Level:*
A designated shelter/group of shelters (max 5-10 households), within a small camp or area where high-risk members are grouped together. Neighbors “swap” households to accommodate high-risk individuals.
Same as above
*Camp/Sector Level:*
A group of shelters such as schools, community buildings within a camp/sector (max 50 high-risk individuals per single green zone) where high-risk individuals are physically isolated together.
One entry point is used for exchange of food, supplies, etc. A meeting area is used for residents and visitors to interact while practicing physical distancing (2 meters). No movement into or outside the green zone.

Operational Considerations​The shielding approach requires several prerequisites for effective implementation. Several are addressed, including access to healthcare and provision of food. However, there are several prerequisites which require additional considerations. Table 2 presents the prerequisites or suggestions as stated in the shielding guidance document (column 1) and CDC presents additional questions and considerations alongside these prerequisites (column 2).
*Table 2: Suggested Prerequisites per the shielding documents and CDC’s Operational Considerations for Implementation
Suggested Prerequisites
*As stated in the shielding document*
Considerations as suggested by CDC*

Each green zone has a dedicated latrine/bathing facility for high-risk individuals

The shielding approach advises against any new facility construction to establish green zones; however, few settings will have existing shelters or communal facilities with designated latrines/bathing facilities to accommodate high-risk individuals. In these settings, most latrines used by HHs are located outside the home and often shared by multiple HHs.
If dedicated facilities are available, ensure safety measures such as proper lighting, handwashing/hygiene infrastructure, maintenance and disinfection of latrines.
Ensure facilities can accommodate high-risk individuals with disabilities, children and separate genders at the neighborhood/camp-level.

To minimize external contact, each green zone should include able-bodied high-risk individuals capable of caring for residents who have disabilities or are less mobile.  Otherwise, designate low-risk individuals for these tasks, preferably who have recovered from confirmed COVID-19 and are assumed to be immune.

This may be difficult to sustain, especially if the caregivers are also high risk. As caregivers may often will be family members, ensure that this strategy is socially or culturally acceptable.
Currently, we do not know if prior infection confers immunity.

The green zone and living areas for high-risk residents should be aligned with minimum humanitarian (SPHERE) standards.*6*

The shielding approach requires strict adherence to infection, prevention and control (IPC) measures. They require, uninterrupted availability of soap, water, hygiene/cleaning supplies, masks or cloth face coverings, etc. for all individuals in green zones. Thus, it is necessary to ensure minimum public health standards*6* are maintained and possibly supplemented to decrease the risk of other outbreaks outside of COVID-19. Attaining and maintaining minimum SPHERE*6 *standards is difficult in these settings for the general population.*8,9,10* Users should consider that provision of services and supplies to high risk individuals could be at the expense of low-risk residents, putting them at increased risk for other outbreaks.

Monitor and evaluate the implementation of the shielding approach.

Monitoring protocols will need to be developed for each type of green zone.
Dedicated staff need to be identified to monitor each green zone. Monitoring includes both adherence to protocols and potential adverse effects or outcomes due to isolation and stigma. It may be necessary to assign someone within the green zone, if feasible, to minimize movement in/out of green zones.

Men and women, and individuals with tuberculosis (TB), severe immunodeficiencies, or dementia should be isolated separately

Multiple green zones would be needed to achieve this level of separation, each requiring additional inputs/resources. Further considerations include challenges of accommodating different ethnicities, socio-cultural groups, or religions within one setting.

Community acceptance and involvement in the design and implementation

Even with community involvement, there may be a risk of stigmatization.*11,12* Isolation/separation from family members, loss of freedom and personal interactions may require additional psychosocial support structures/systems. See section on additional considerations below.

High-risk minors should be accompanied into isolation by a single caregiver who will also be considered a green zone resident in terms of movements and contacts with those outside the green zone.

Protection measures are critical to implementation. Ensure there is appropriate, adequate, and acceptable care of other minors or individuals with disabilities or mental health conditions who remain in the HH if separated from their primary caregiver.

Green zone shelters should always be kept clean. Residents should be provided with the necessary cleaning products and materials to clean their living spaces.

High-risk individuals will be responsible for cleaning and maintaining their own living space and facilities. This may not be feasible for persons with disabilities or decreased mobility.*11* Maintaining hygiene conditions in communal facilities is difficult during non-outbreak settings.*7,8,9* consequently it may be necessary to provide additional human resource support.

Green zones should be more spacious in terms of shelter area per capita than the surrounding camp/sector, even at the cost of greater crowding of low-risk people.

Ensure that targeting high-risk individuals does not negate mitigation measures among low-risk individuals (physical distancing in markets or water points, where feasible, etc.). Differences in space based on risk status may increase the potential risk of exposure among the rest of the low-risk residents and may be unacceptable or impracticable, considering space limitations and overcrowding in many settings.

Additional Considerations​The shielding approach outlines the general “logistics” of implementation –who, what, where, how. However, there may be additional logistical challenges to implementing these strategies as a result of unavailable commodities, transport restrictions, limited staff capacity and availability to meet the increased needs. The approach does not address the potential emotional, social/cultural, psychological impact for separated individuals nor for the households with separated members. Additional considerations to address these challenges are presented below.
_Population characteristics and demographics_​Consideration: The number of green zones required may be greater than anticipated, as they are based on the total number of high-risk individuals, disease categories, and the socio-demographics of the area and not just the proportion of elderly population.
Explanation: Older adults represent a small percentage of the population in many camps in humanitarian settings (approximately 3-5%*4,5*), however in some humanitarian settings more than one quarter of the population may fall under high risk categories*13,14,15* based on underlying medical conditions which may increase a person’s risk for severe COVID-19 illness which include chronic kidney disease, obesity, serious heart conditions, sickle cell disease, and type 2 diabetes. Additionally, many camps and settlements host multiple nationalities which may require additional separation, for example, Kakuma Refugee Camp in Kenya accommodates refugees from 19 countries.*16*
_Timeline considerations_​Consideration: Plan for an extended duration of implementation time, at least 6 months.
Explanation: The shielding approach proposes that green zones be maintained until one of the following circumstances arises: (i) sufficient hospitalization capacity is established; (ii) effective vaccine or therapeutic options become widely available; or (iii) the COVID-19 epidemic affecting the population subsides.
Given the limited resources and healthcare available to populations in humanitarian settings prior to the pandemic, it is unlikely sufficient hospitalization capacity (beds, personal protective equipment, ventilators, and staff) will be achievable during widespread transmission. The national capacity in many of the countries where these settings are located (e.g., Chad, Myanmar, and Syria) is limited. Resources may become quickly overwhelmed during the peak of transmission and may not be accessible to the emergency affected populations.
Vaccine trials are underway, but with no definite timeline. Reaching the suppression phase where the epidemic subsides can take several months and cases may resurge in a second or even third wave. Herd immunity (the depletion of susceptible people) for COVID-19 has not been demonstrated to date. It is also unclear if an infected person develops immunity and the duration of potential immunity is unknown. Thus, contingency plans to account for a possibly extended operational timeline are critical.
Other logistical considerations​Consideration: Plan to identify additional resources and outline supply chain mechanisms to support green zones.
Explanation: The implementation and operation of green zones requires strong coordination among several sectors which may require substantial additional resources:  supplies and staff to maintain these spaces – shelters, IPC, water, sanitation, and hygiene (WASH), non-food items (NFIs) (beds, linens, dishes/utensils, water containers), psychosocial support, monitors/supervisors, caretakers/attendants, risk communication and community engagement, security, etc. Considering global reductions in commodity shortages,*17* movement restrictions, border closures, and decreased trucking and flights, it is important to outline what additional resources will be needed and how they will be procured.
_Protection_​Consideration: Ensure safe and protective environments for all individuals, including minors and individuals who require additional care whether they are in the green zone or remain in a household after the primary caregiver or income provider has moved to the green zone.
Explanation: Separating families and disrupting and deconstructing multigenerational households may have long-term negative consequences. Shielding strategies need to consider sociocultural gender norms in order to adequately assess and address risks to individuals, particularly women and girls. *18,19,20* Restrictive gender norms may be exacerbated by isolation strategies such as shielding. At the household level, isolating individuals and limiting their interaction, compounded with social and economic disruption has raised concerns of potential increased risk of partner violence. Households participating in house swaps or sector-wide cohorting are at particular risk for gender-based violence, harassment, abuse, and exploitation as remaining household members may not be decision-makers or responsible for households needs.*18,19,20*
_Social/Cultural/Religious Practices_​Consideration: Plan for potential disruption of social networks.
Explanation: Community celebrations (religious holidays), bereavement (funerals) and other rites of passage are cornerstones of many societies. Proactive planning ahead of time, including strong community engagement and risk communication is needed to better understand the issues and concerns of restricting individuals from participating in communal practices because they are being shielded. Failure to do so could lead to both interpersonal and communal violence.*21,22*
_Mental Health_​Consideration: Ensure mental health and psychosocial support*,*23 *structures are in place to address increased stress and anxiety.
Explanation: Additional stress and worry are common during any epidemic and may be more pronounced with COVID-19 due to the novelty of the disease and increased fear of infection, increased childcare responsibilities due to school closures, and loss of livelihoods. Thus, in addition to the risk of stigmatization and feeling of isolation, this shielding approach may have an important psychological impact and may lead to significant emotional distress, exacerbate existing mental illness or contribute to anxiety, depression, helplessness, grief, substance abuse, or thoughts of suicide among those who are separated or have been left behind. Shielded individuals with concurrent severe mental health conditions should not be left alone. There must be a caregiver allocated to them to prevent further protection risks such as neglect and abuse.
Summary​The shielding approach is an ambitious undertaking, which may prove effective in preventing COVID-19 infection among high-risk populations if well managed. While the premise is based on mitigation strategies used in the United Kingdom,*24,25* there is no empirical evidence whether this approach will increase, decrease or have no effect on morbidity and mortality during the COVID-19 epidemic in various humanitarian settings. This document highlights a) risks and challenges of implementing this approach, b) need for additional resources in areas with limited or reduced capacity, c) indefinite timeline, and d) possible short-term and long-term adverse consequences.
Public health not only focuses on the eradication of disease but addresses the entire spectrum of health and wellbeing. Populations displaced, due to natural disasters or war and, conflict are already fragile and have experienced increased mental, physical and/or emotional trauma. While the shielding approach is not meant to be coercive, it may appear forced or be misunderstood in humanitarian settings. As with many community interventions meant to decrease COVID-19 morbidity and mortality, compliance and behavior change are the primary rate-limiting steps and may be driven by social and emotional factors. These changes are difficult in developed, stable settings; thus, they may be particularly challenging in humanitarian settings which bring their own set of multi-faceted challenges that need to be taken into account.
Household-level shielding seems to be the most feasible and dignified as it allows for the least disruption to family structure and lifestyle, critical components to maintaining compliance. However, it is most susceptible to the introduction of a virus due to necessary movement or interaction outside the green zone, less oversight, and often large household sizes. It may be less feasible in settings where family shelters are small and do not have multiple compartments. In humanitarian settings, small village, sector/block, or camp-level shielding may allow for greater adherence to proposed protocol, but at the expense of longer-term social impacts triggered by separation from friends and family, feelings of isolation, and stigmatization. Most importantly, accidental introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission and increased morbidity and mortality as observed in assisted care facilities in the US.*26*
The shielding approach is intended to alleviate stress on the healthcare system and circumvent the negative economic consequences of long-term containment measures and lockdowns by protecting the most vulnerable.*1,24,25* Implementation of this approach will involve careful planning, additional resources, strict adherence and strong multi-sector coordination, requiring agencies to consider the potential repercussion among populations that have collectively experienced physical and psychological trauma which makes them more vulnerable to adverse psychosocial consequences.  In addition, thoughtful consideration of the potential benefit versus the social and financial cost of implementation will be needed in humanitarian settings.
***Specific psychosocial support guidance during COVID-19 as specific subject areas are beyond the scope of this document.

References​
Favas, C. Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in camps and camp-like settings pdf icon[465 KB, 15 pages]external icon. London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, 31 March 2020.
Maysoon, D, Zandvoort K, Flasche S, et al. COVID-19 control in low-income settings and displaced populations: what can realistically be done?external icon. 2020. London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Groups at Higher Risk for Severe Illness. Content source: National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases (NCIRD), Division of Viral Diseases. Last content review 14 May 2020.
UNHCR Statistical Yearbook 2016external icon.
UNHCR -Rohingya Refugee Response/Bangladesh-Joint Government of Bangladesh-UNHCR, Population Factsheet. Annex I and II. March 31,2020. Sent by email.
The Sphere Handbook. Humanitarian Charter and Minimum Standards in Humanitarian Response, 2018 editionexternal icon.
Butler, N., Tulloch. O. Anthrologica, 2020. Social Sciences in Humanitarian Action pdf icon[275 KB, 8 pages]external icon.
Blum, L.S., Yemweni, A., Trinies, V. _et al._ Programmatic implications for promotion of handwashing behavior in an internally displaced persons camp in North Kivu, Democratic Republic of Congo. _Confl Health_ *13, *54 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1186/s13031-019-0225-xexternal icon.
Cronin AA, Shrestha D, Cornier N, Abdalla F, Ezard N, Aramburu C. A review of water and sanitation provision in refugee camps in association with selected health and nutrition indicators–the need for integrated service provisionexternal icon. J Water Health. 2008;6(1):1-13. doi:10.2166/wh.2007.019.
Nyoka R, Foote AM, Woods E, et al. Sanitation practices and perceptions in Kakuma refugee camp, Kenya: Comparing the status quo with a novel service-based approachexternal icon. [published correction appears in PLoS One. 2017 Dec 19;12 (12 ):e0190129]. PLoS One. 2017;12(7):e0180864. Published 2017 Jul 13.
Working with Persons with Disabilities in Forced Displacement pdf icon[343 KB, 28 pages]external icon: Need to Know Guidance 1. 2019.
IFRC, UNICEF and WHO. Social Stigma Associated with COVID-19: A guide to preventing and addressing social stigma associated with COVID-19external icon.
Sethi S, Jonsson R, Skaff R, Tyler F. Community-Based Noncommunicable Disease Care for Syrian Refugees in Lebanonexternal icon. Glob Health Sci Pract. 2017;5(3):495-506. Published 2017 Sep 28. doi:10.9745/GHSP-D-17-00043.
Akik C, Ghattas H, Mesmar S, Rabkin M, El-Sadr WM, Fouad FM. Host country responses to non-communicable diseases amongst Syrian refugees: a reviewexternal icon. Confl Health. 2019;13:8. Published 2019 Mar 22. doi:10.1186/s13031-019-0192-2.
Rehr M, Shoaib M, Ellithy S, et al. Prevalence of non-communicable diseases and access to care among non-camp Syrian refugees in northern Jordan. Confl Healthexternal icon. 2018;12:33. Published 2018 Jul 11. doi:10.1186/s13031-018-0168-7.
UNHCR, Kakuma camp and Kalobeyei Settlement Visitors Guide pdf icon[5.7 MB, 10 pages]external icon.
World Health Organization. COVID-19 Supply Chain System, Requesting and Receiving Suppliesexternal icon.
UNFPA: COVID-19, A Gender Lens: Protecting ****** and reproductive health and rights and promoting gender equality.
IFRC, Prevention and Response to ****** and Gender-Based Violence in COVID-19, A protection, Gender and Inclusion PGI Technical guidance note pdf icon[560 KB, 12 pages]external icon.
Inter-agency Standing Committee Interim guidance -Technical note. Protection from ****** exploitation and abuse (PSEA) during COVID-19 response. Version 1.
Rashad, M, Farrell, S. April 24, 2020. Reuters, Islam’s holiest sites emptied by coronavirus crisis as Ramadhan beginsexternal icon.
ABP News Bureau, April 24, 2020. Pakistani Imams Overrule Lockdown for Ramadan, 253 Healthcare Workers get Infected with COVID-19external icon.
Operational considerations for multisectoral mental health and psychosocial support programmes during the COVID-19 pandemic, Version 1.1pdf iconexternal icon.
Public Health England: Guidance on Shielding and Protecting People Who are Clinically Extremely Vulnerable from COVID-19external icon.
Van Bunnik, Bram A.D., Morgan, L.K., et a. Segmentation and shielding of the most vulnerable members elements of an exit strategy from COVID-19external icon. University of Edinburg.
Michael TM, Clark S, Pogosjans S, et al. COVID-19 in a Long-Term Care Facility — King County, Washington, February 27–March 9, 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2020; 69:339-342. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.15585/mmwr.mm6912e1

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html


----------



## MrPants

Becky1951 said:


> "I don't believe that will happen but no one can say assuredly that something won't crop up down the road. That too would be a serious consequence."
> 
> And if it did, think of all the currently vaccinated people needing medical care. All the unvaccinated medical professionals would be called into service and they would be overwhelmed by the numbers of patients. And what of the costs of those high numbers of those needing medical care?


You are most correct on that Becky! It would be a disaster of biblical proportions if some widespread serious medical event related to the vaccines cropped up. It's almost unimaginable yet, who'd have thought 2 years ago there would be virus that would change the world as we once knew it? I know it never crossed my mind


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## Becky1951

Ruthanne said:


> Here we go again....this is getting old.


Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand. If this and other discussions are getting old, why follow them and reply? Wouldn't it be easier to ignore them?


----------



## MrPants

Becky1951 said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand. If this and other discussions are getting old, why follow them and reply? Wouldn't it be easier to ignore them?


I agree. Healthy exchange of viewpoints is good and interesting at times because there is NO manual on this Covid thing or the vaccines. It's the mud-slinging that puts the conversation in the toilet. That's when I bug out!


----------



## Murrmurr

Becky1951 said:


> Of course this is only geared towards the homeless....... for now.
> 
> Operational Considerations for Humanitarian Settings
> Updated July 26, 2020
> 
> This document presents considerations from the perspective of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) for implementing the shielding approach in humanitarian settings as outlined in guidance documents focused on camps, displaced populations and low-resource settings.*1,2 *This approach has never been documented and has raised questions and concerns among humanitarian partners who support response activities in these settings. The purpose of this document is to highlight potential implementation challenges of the shielding approach from CDC’s perspective and guide thinking around implementation in the absence of empirical data. Considerations are based on current evidence known about the transmission and severity of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) and may need to be revised as more information becomes available. Please check the CDC website periodically for updates.
> What is the Shielding Approach1?​The shielding approach aims to reduce the number of severe COVID-19 cases by limiting contact between individuals at higher risk of developing severe disease (“high-risk”) and the general population (“low-risk”). High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting.*1,2 *They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents.
> Current evidence indicates that older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19.*3 *In most humanitarian settings, older population groups make up a small percentage of the total population.*4,5 * For this reason, the shielding approach suggests physically separating high-risk individuals from the general population to prioritize the use of the limited available resources and avoid implementing long-term containment measures among the general population.
> In theory, shielding may serve its objective to protect high-risk populations from disease and death. However, implementation of the approach necessitates strict adherence*1,6,7*, to protocol. Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect.
> A summary of the shielding approach described by Favas is shown in Table 1. See _Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in low-resource, displaced and camp and camp-like settings_* 1,2* for full details.
> *Table 1: Summary of the Shielding Approach1
> Level
> Movement/ Interactions
> Household (HH) Level:*
> A specific room/area designated for high-risk individuals who are physically isolated from other HH members.
> Low-risk HH members should not enter the green zone. If entry is necessary, it should be done only by healthy individuals after washing hands and using face coverings. Interactions should be at a safe distance (approx. 2 meters). Minimum movement of high-risk individuals outside the green zone. Low-risk HH members continue to follow social distancing and hygiene practices outside the house.
> *Neighborhood Level:*
> A designated shelter/group of shelters (max 5-10 households), within a small camp or area where high-risk members are grouped together. Neighbors “swap” households to accommodate high-risk individuals.
> Same as above
> *Camp/Sector Level:*
> A group of shelters such as schools, community buildings within a camp/sector (max 50 high-risk individuals per single green zone) where high-risk individuals are physically isolated together.
> One entry point is used for exchange of food, supplies, etc. A meeting area is used for residents and visitors to interact while practicing physical distancing (2 meters). No movement into or outside the green zone.
> 
> Operational Considerations​The shielding approach requires several prerequisites for effective implementation. Several are addressed, including access to healthcare and provision of food. However, there are several prerequisites which require additional considerations. Table 2 presents the prerequisites or suggestions as stated in the shielding guidance document (column 1) and CDC presents additional questions and considerations alongside these prerequisites (column 2).
> *Table 2: Suggested Prerequisites per the shielding documents and CDC’s Operational Considerations for Implementation
> Suggested Prerequisites
> *As stated in the shielding document*
> Considerations as suggested by CDC*
> 
> Each green zone has a dedicated latrine/bathing facility for high-risk individuals
> The shielding approach advises against any new facility construction to establish green zones; however, few settings will have existing shelters or communal facilities with designated latrines/bathing facilities to accommodate high-risk individuals. In these settings, most latrines used by HHs are located outside the home and often shared by multiple HHs.
> If dedicated facilities are available, ensure safety measures such as proper lighting, handwashing/hygiene infrastructure, maintenance and disinfection of latrines.
> Ensure facilities can accommodate high-risk individuals with disabilities, children and separate genders at the neighborhood/camp-level.
> To minimize external contact, each green zone should include able-bodied high-risk individuals capable of caring for residents who have disabilities or are less mobile.  Otherwise, designate low-risk individuals for these tasks, preferably who have recovered from confirmed COVID-19 and are assumed to be immune.
> This may be difficult to sustain, especially if the caregivers are also high risk. As caregivers may often will be family members, ensure that this strategy is socially or culturally acceptable.
> Currently, we do not know if prior infection confers immunity.
> The green zone and living areas for high-risk residents should be aligned with minimum humanitarian (SPHERE) standards.*6*
> The shielding approach requires strict adherence to infection, prevention and control (IPC) measures. They require, uninterrupted availability of soap, water, hygiene/cleaning supplies, masks or cloth face coverings, etc. for all individuals in green zones. Thus, it is necessary to ensure minimum public health standards*6* are maintained and possibly supplemented to decrease the risk of other outbreaks outside of COVID-19. Attaining and maintaining minimum SPHERE*6 *standards is difficult in these settings for the general population.*8,9,10* Users should consider that provision of services and supplies to high risk individuals could be at the expense of low-risk residents, putting them at increased risk for other outbreaks.
> Monitor and evaluate the implementation of the shielding approach.
> Monitoring protocols will need to be developed for each type of green zone.
> Dedicated staff need to be identified to monitor each green zone. Monitoring includes both adherence to protocols and potential adverse effects or outcomes due to isolation and stigma. It may be necessary to assign someone within the green zone, if feasible, to minimize movement in/out of green zones.
> Men and women, and individuals with tuberculosis (TB), severe immunodeficiencies, or dementia should be isolated separately
> Multiple green zones would be needed to achieve this level of separation, each requiring additional inputs/resources. Further considerations include challenges of accommodating different ethnicities, socio-cultural groups, or religions within one setting.
> Community acceptance and involvement in the design and implementation
> Even with community involvement, there may be a risk of stigmatization.*11,12* Isolation/separation from family members, loss of freedom and personal interactions may require additional psychosocial support structures/systems. See section on additional considerations below.
> High-risk minors should be accompanied into isolation by a single caregiver who will also be considered a green zone resident in terms of movements and contacts with those outside the green zone.
> Protection measures are critical to implementation. Ensure there is appropriate, adequate, and acceptable care of other minors or individuals with disabilities or mental health conditions who remain in the HH if separated from their primary caregiver.
> Green zone shelters should always be kept clean. Residents should be provided with the necessary cleaning products and materials to clean their living spaces.
> High-risk individuals will be responsible for cleaning and maintaining their own living space and facilities. This may not be feasible for persons with disabilities or decreased mobility.*11* Maintaining hygiene conditions in communal facilities is difficult during non-outbreak settings.*7,8,9* consequently it may be necessary to provide additional human resource support.
> Green zones should be more spacious in terms of shelter area per capita than the surrounding camp/sector, even at the cost of greater crowding of low-risk people.
> Ensure that targeting high-risk individuals does not negate mitigation measures among low-risk individuals (physical distancing in markets or water points, where feasible, etc.). Differences in space based on risk status may increase the potential risk of exposure among the rest of the low-risk residents and may be unacceptable or impracticable, considering space limitations and overcrowding in many settings.
> 
> Additional Considerations​The shielding approach outlines the general “logistics” of implementation –who, what, where, how. However, there may be additional logistical challenges to implementing these strategies as a result of unavailable commodities, transport restrictions, limited staff capacity and availability to meet the increased needs. The approach does not address the potential emotional, social/cultural, psychological impact for separated individuals nor for the households with separated members. Additional considerations to address these challenges are presented below.
> _Population characteristics and demographics_​Consideration: The number of green zones required may be greater than anticipated, as they are based on the total number of high-risk individuals, disease categories, and the socio-demographics of the area and not just the proportion of elderly population.
> Explanation: Older adults represent a small percentage of the population in many camps in humanitarian settings (approximately 3-5%*4,5*), however in some humanitarian settings more than one quarter of the population may fall under high risk categories*13,14,15* based on underlying medical conditions which may increase a person’s risk for severe COVID-19 illness which include chronic kidney disease, obesity, serious heart conditions, sickle cell disease, and type 2 diabetes. Additionally, many camps and settlements host multiple nationalities which may require additional separation, for example, Kakuma Refugee Camp in Kenya accommodates refugees from 19 countries.*16*
> _Timeline considerations_​Consideration: Plan for an extended duration of implementation time, at least 6 months.
> Explanation: The shielding approach proposes that green zones be maintained until one of the following circumstances arises: (i) sufficient hospitalization capacity is established; (ii) effective vaccine or therapeutic options become widely available; or (iii) the COVID-19 epidemic affecting the population subsides.
> Given the limited resources and healthcare available to populations in humanitarian settings prior to the pandemic, it is unlikely sufficient hospitalization capacity (beds, personal protective equipment, ventilators, and staff) will be achievable during widespread transmission. The national capacity in many of the countries where these settings are located (e.g., Chad, Myanmar, and Syria) is limited. Resources may become quickly overwhelmed during the peak of transmission and may not be accessible to the emergency affected populations.
> Vaccine trials are underway, but with no definite timeline. Reaching the suppression phase where the epidemic subsides can take several months and cases may resurge in a second or even third wave. Herd immunity (the depletion of susceptible people) for COVID-19 has not been demonstrated to date. It is also unclear if an infected person develops immunity and the duration of potential immunity is unknown. Thus, contingency plans to account for a possibly extended operational timeline are critical.
> Other logistical considerations​Consideration: Plan to identify additional resources and outline supply chain mechanisms to support green zones.
> Explanation: The implementation and operation of green zones requires strong coordination among several sectors which may require substantial additional resources:  supplies and staff to maintain these spaces – shelters, IPC, water, sanitation, and hygiene (WASH), non-food items (NFIs) (beds, linens, dishes/utensils, water containers), psychosocial support, monitors/supervisors, caretakers/attendants, risk communication and community engagement, security, etc. Considering global reductions in commodity shortages,*17* movement restrictions, border closures, and decreased trucking and flights, it is important to outline what additional resources will be needed and how they will be procured.
> _Protection_​Consideration: Ensure safe and protective environments for all individuals, including minors and individuals who require additional care whether they are in the green zone or remain in a household after the primary caregiver or income provider has moved to the green zone.
> Explanation: Separating families and disrupting and deconstructing multigenerational households may have long-term negative consequences. Shielding strategies need to consider sociocultural gender norms in order to adequately assess and address risks to individuals, particularly women and girls. *18,19,20* Restrictive gender norms may be exacerbated by isolation strategies such as shielding. At the household level, isolating individuals and limiting their interaction, compounded with social and economic disruption has raised concerns of potential increased risk of partner violence. Households participating in house swaps or sector-wide cohorting are at particular risk for gender-based violence, harassment, abuse, and exploitation as remaining household members may not be decision-makers or responsible for households needs.*18,19,20*
> _Social/Cultural/Religious Practices_​Consideration: Plan for potential disruption of social networks.
> Explanation: Community celebrations (religious holidays), bereavement (funerals) and other rites of passage are cornerstones of many societies. Proactive planning ahead of time, including strong community engagement and risk communication is needed to better understand the issues and concerns of restricting individuals from participating in communal practices because they are being shielded. Failure to do so could lead to both interpersonal and communal violence.*21,22*
> _Mental Health_​Consideration: Ensure mental health and psychosocial support*,*23 *structures are in place to address increased stress and anxiety.
> Explanation: Additional stress and worry are common during any epidemic and may be more pronounced with COVID-19 due to the novelty of the disease and increased fear of infection, increased childcare responsibilities due to school closures, and loss of livelihoods. Thus, in addition to the risk of stigmatization and feeling of isolation, this shielding approach may have an important psychological impact and may lead to significant emotional distress, exacerbate existing mental illness or contribute to anxiety, depression, helplessness, grief, substance abuse, or thoughts of suicide among those who are separated or have been left behind. Shielded individuals with concurrent severe mental health conditions should not be left alone. There must be a caregiver allocated to them to prevent further protection risks such as neglect and abuse.
> Summary​The shielding approach is an ambitious undertaking, which may prove effective in preventing COVID-19 infection among high-risk populations if well managed. While the premise is based on mitigation strategies used in the United Kingdom,*24,25* there is no empirical evidence whether this approach will increase, decrease or have no effect on morbidity and mortality during the COVID-19 epidemic in various humanitarian settings. This document highlights a) risks and challenges of implementing this approach, b) need for additional resources in areas with limited or reduced capacity, c) indefinite timeline, and d) possible short-term and long-term adverse consequences.
> Public health not only focuses on the eradication of disease but addresses the entire spectrum of health and wellbeing. Populations displaced, due to natural disasters or war and, conflict are already fragile and have experienced increased mental, physical and/or emotional trauma. While the shielding approach is not meant to be coercive, it may appear forced or be misunderstood in humanitarian settings. As with many community interventions meant to decrease COVID-19 morbidity and mortality, compliance and behavior change are the primary rate-limiting steps and may be driven by social and emotional factors. These changes are difficult in developed, stable settings; thus, they may be particularly challenging in humanitarian settings which bring their own set of multi-faceted challenges that need to be taken into account.
> Household-level shielding seems to be the most feasible and dignified as it allows for the least disruption to family structure and lifestyle, critical components to maintaining compliance. However, it is most susceptible to the introduction of a virus due to necessary movement or interaction outside the green zone, less oversight, and often large household sizes. It may be less feasible in settings where family shelters are small and do not have multiple compartments. In humanitarian settings, small village, sector/block, or camp-level shielding may allow for greater adherence to proposed protocol, but at the expense of longer-term social impacts triggered by separation from friends and family, feelings of isolation, and stigmatization. Most importantly, accidental introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission and increased morbidity and mortality as observed in assisted care facilities in the US.*26*
> The shielding approach is intended to alleviate stress on the healthcare system and circumvent the negative economic consequences of long-term containment measures and lockdowns by protecting the most vulnerable.*1,24,25* Implementation of this approach will involve careful planning, additional resources, strict adherence and strong multi-sector coordination, requiring agencies to consider the potential repercussion among populations that have collectively experienced physical and psychological trauma which makes them more vulnerable to adverse psychosocial consequences.  In addition, thoughtful consideration of the potential benefit versus the social and financial cost of implementation will be needed in humanitarian settings.
> ***Specific psychosocial support guidance during COVID-19 as specific subject areas are beyond the scope of this document.
> 
> References​
> Favas, C. Guidance for the prevention of COVID-19 infections among high-risk individuals in camps and camp-like settings pdf icon[465 KB, 15 pages]external icon. London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, 31 March 2020.
> Maysoon, D, Zandvoort K, Flasche S, et al. COVID-19 control in low-income settings and displaced populations: what can realistically be done?external icon. 2020. London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
> Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Groups at Higher Risk for Severe Illness. Content source: National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases (NCIRD), Division of Viral Diseases. Last content review 14 May 2020.
> UNHCR Statistical Yearbook 2016external icon.
> UNHCR -Rohingya Refugee Response/Bangladesh-Joint Government of Bangladesh-UNHCR, Population Factsheet. Annex I and II. March 31,2020. Sent by email.
> The Sphere Handbook. Humanitarian Charter and Minimum Standards in Humanitarian Response, 2018 editionexternal icon.
> Butler, N., Tulloch. O. Anthrologica, 2020. Social Sciences in Humanitarian Action pdf icon[275 KB, 8 pages]external icon.
> Blum, L.S., Yemweni, A., Trinies, V. _et al._ Programmatic implications for promotion of handwashing behavior in an internally displaced persons camp in North Kivu, Democratic Republic of Congo. _Confl Health_ *13, *54 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1186/s13031-019-0225-xexternal icon.
> Cronin AA, Shrestha D, Cornier N, Abdalla F, Ezard N, Aramburu C. A review of water and sanitation provision in refugee camps in association with selected health and nutrition indicators–the need for integrated service provisionexternal icon. J Water Health. 2008;6(1):1-13. doi:10.2166/wh.2007.019.
> Nyoka R, Foote AM, Woods E, et al. Sanitation practices and perceptions in Kakuma refugee camp, Kenya: Comparing the status quo with a novel service-based approachexternal icon. [published correction appears in PLoS One. 2017 Dec 19;12 (12 ):e0190129]. PLoS One. 2017;12(7):e0180864. Published 2017 Jul 13.
> Working with Persons with Disabilities in Forced Displacement pdf icon[343 KB, 28 pages]external icon: Need to Know Guidance 1. 2019.
> IFRC, UNICEF and WHO. Social Stigma Associated with COVID-19: A guide to preventing and addressing social stigma associated with COVID-19external icon.
> Sethi S, Jonsson R, Skaff R, Tyler F. Community-Based Noncommunicable Disease Care for Syrian Refugees in Lebanonexternal icon. Glob Health Sci Pract. 2017;5(3):495-506. Published 2017 Sep 28. doi:10.9745/GHSP-D-17-00043.
> Akik C, Ghattas H, Mesmar S, Rabkin M, El-Sadr WM, Fouad FM. Host country responses to non-communicable diseases amongst Syrian refugees: a reviewexternal icon. Confl Health. 2019;13:8. Published 2019 Mar 22. doi:10.1186/s13031-019-0192-2.
> Rehr M, Shoaib M, Ellithy S, et al. Prevalence of non-communicable diseases and access to care among non-camp Syrian refugees in northern Jordan. Confl Healthexternal icon. 2018;12:33. Published 2018 Jul 11. doi:10.1186/s13031-018-0168-7.
> UNHCR, Kakuma camp and Kalobeyei Settlement Visitors Guide pdf icon[5.7 MB, 10 pages]external icon.
> World Health Organization. COVID-19 Supply Chain System, Requesting and Receiving Suppliesexternal icon.
> UNFPA: COVID-19, A Gender Lens: Protecting ****** and reproductive health and rights and promoting gender equality.
> IFRC, Prevention and Response to ****** and Gender-Based Violence in COVID-19, A protection, Gender and Inclusion PGI Technical guidance note pdf icon[560 KB, 12 pages]external icon.
> Inter-agency Standing Committee Interim guidance -Technical note. Protection from ****** exploitation and abuse (PSEA) during COVID-19 response. Version 1.
> Rashad, M, Farrell, S. April 24, 2020. Reuters, Islam’s holiest sites emptied by coronavirus crisis as Ramadhan beginsexternal icon.
> ABP News Bureau, April 24, 2020. Pakistani Imams Overrule Lockdown for Ramadan, 253 Healthcare Workers get Infected with COVID-19external icon.
> Operational considerations for multisectoral mental health and psychosocial support programmes during the COVID-19 pandemic, Version 1.1pdf iconexternal icon.
> Public Health England: Guidance on Shielding and Protecting People Who are Clinically Extremely Vulnerable from COVID-19external icon.
> Van Bunnik, Bram A.D., Morgan, L.K., et a. Segmentation and shielding of the most vulnerable members elements of an exit strategy from COVID-19external icon. University of Edinburg.
> Michael TM, Clark S, Pogosjans S, et al. COVID-19 in a Long-Term Care Facility — King County, Washington, February 27–March 9, 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2020; 69:339-342. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.15585/mmwr.mm6912e1
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/global-covid-19/shielding-approach-humanitarian.html


Notice two key words featured, Consideration and Humanitarian, and an impressively long list of accredited, (seemingly) important people who are obviously (by the looks of it) on board with the idea. And, yes, it is standard practice to start out by targeting a group that is truly in need but also happens to be offensive. Not that we'll ever use that word. Not initially, certainly, and absolutely not publicly....at least not until enough people are desensitized, in agreement, and think of it as sort of a new normal.


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> Why the tragique outburst? Very unnecessary since I was addressing a post by Mr Pants (whom I like by the way) not you. I did not want to upset him by replying that I disagreed with much of his post. Would you like to apologise to me? Here is the thing: I am a US citizen, BUT I do not make any laws, I follow them!


I'm glad you feel that the thinly veiled point of my comment is tragic.
I'm sorry you took it personally.


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## chic

Murrmurr said:


> I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?
> 
> Oh wait....that could work!


Let's put them in jail. Let them sit and think for thirty days about what THEY are doing to the rest of us. If they still won't get with the program and take the jab, then they'll have to be separated from the rest of decent society. As my favorite Australian has said, "we can't just let the unavaccinated run around wherever they want." Yes, let's bring that forward thinking to America. Of course, Americans are armed and Australians are not so that might be a tiny problem. But it comes down to this : we cannot allow these dangerous, disease spreading, unvaccinated cretans to mingle with the rest of us. They have NO excuses and only themselves to blame. Tongue very much in cheek. What kind of an excuse for a human being actually says this stuff and means it.


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## Sassycakes

Everytime I hear someone say they refuse to get vaccinated, I think about when I was young and they came out with the Polio Vaccine. I still remember being given a cube of sugar with the vaccine on it. No one I knew refused the vaccine and Polio disappeared. And other kinds of vaccines protected us from other diseases. So I think people should get vaccinated.


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I'm glad you feel that the thinly veiled point of my comment is tragic.
> I'm sorry you took it personally.



Aha! so you mix up my words to your advantage! No your outburst towards me is tragic. I took it both personally and impersonally.

Now you should consider this:  you say you are involved with the homeless? okay, if one day or night you arrived where they hang out and covid has swept through their ranks and the possibility of saving them is NIL,  how would you feel. Answer s’il vous plaît.

I doubt very much anyone who is "considerate"and "humanitarian" would not cry and say:  if only they had the vaccine!!!


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## Nathan

squatting dog said:


> Well, pat my back and call me a conspiracy nut.



LOL, congratulations!


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## Geezerette

As of right now I’m not going to read anything more the ant vaxxers have to say. I’m very happy with all the different vaxs I’ve had, my adult children are happy with theirs and passing it on.
It’s an imposition on the vaxxers that the  non vaxxers are out there passing it around to each other and making the healthcare workers exhausted trying to save you.


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> Aha! so you mix up my words to your advantage! No your outburst towards me is tragic. I took it both personally and impersonally.
> 
> Now you should consider this:  you say you are involved with the homeless? okay, if one day or night you arrived where they hang out and covid has swept through their ranks and the possibility of saving them is NIL,  how would you feel. Answer s’il vous plaît.
> 
> I doubt very much anyone who is "considerate"and "humanitarian" would not cry and say:  if only they had the vaccine!!!


I'm sorry, I don't see any sort of outburst in my comment. In my head, I said it calmly and without malice, I was simply making a point for all to consider, not only you.

I don't know one homeless person who can afford a vaccine, or who has a current ID to get vaccinated for free. I know 4 who have a Medical card, and who happen to be camped directly across from a Rite-Aid pharmacy, so they were able to be vaccinated.


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I'm sorry, I don't see any sort of outburst in my comment. In my head, I said it calmly and without malice, I was simply making a point for all to consider, not only you.
> 
> I don't know one homeless person who can afford a vaccine, or who has a current ID to get vaccinated for free. I know 4 who have a Medical card, and who happen to be camped directly across from a Rite-Aid pharmacy, so they were able to be vaccinated.



_Murmur said : ‘I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?_’

You call that calm? And then you addressed that as a reply to my post when all I said was “Lord have patience” to someone else. Anyway, no hard feelings on my part, I am over this.

If you get on to the right people, I believe you will find your assumption is incorrect. Homeless people may have the vaccine in the US with or without money or ID. Something for you to investigate. I am not going to do it for you.
Bonne journée!


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## Nathan

Murrmurr said:


> I don't know one homeless person who can afford a vaccine, or who has a current ID to get vaccinated for free. I know 4 who have a Medical card, and who happen to be camped directly across from a Rite-Aid pharmacy, so they were able to be vaccinated.



COVID-19 Vaccines Are Free to the Public


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## Becky1951

chic said:


> Let's put them in jail. Let them sit and think for thirty days about what THEY are doing to the rest of us. If they still won't get with the program and take the jab, then they'll have to be separated from the rest of decent society. As my favorite Australian has said, "we can't just let the unavaccinated run around wherever they want." Yes, let's bring that forward thinking to America. Of course, Americans are armed and Australians are not so that might be a tiny problem. But it comes down to this : we cannot allow these dangerous, disease spreading, unvaccinated cretans to mingle with the rest of us. They have NO excuses and only themselves to blame. Tongue very much in cheek. What kind of an excuse for a human being actually says this stuff and means it.
> 
> View attachment 190423


"What kind of an excuse for a human being actually says this stuff and means it."

Ha! Seriously you ask?  There are a few right here in this forum.


----------



## Murrmurr

Nathan said:


> COVID-19 Vaccines Are Free to the Public


Yeah, they have to get to the vaccine stations. Unfortunately, there are only 3 in my city and they're not in the areas where they're needed most. The homeless rarely travel out of their territory, and they do have definite territories. I'm not sure why they don't like to, but probably has to do with losing a good sleeping spot that they're accustomed to, and maybe losing the stuff that they can't or won't take with them.


----------



## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> _Murmur said : ‘I know, what are we going to do with all those murdering anti-vaxxers? Segregate them? Round 'em up and move them to a camp or a ghetto or something?_’
> 
> You call that calm? And then you addressed that as a reply to my post when all I said was “Lord have patience” to someone else. Anyway, no hard feelings on my part, I am over this.
> 
> If you get on to the right people, I believe you will find your assumption is incorrect. Homeless people may have the vaccine in the US with or without money or ID. Something for you to investigate. I am not going to do it for you.
> Bonne journée!


See post #34.


----------



## CarolfromTX

Government overreach pure and simple. Time people took a stand. Let’s go Brandon!


----------



## Nathan

Sassycakes said:


> Everytime I hear someone say they refuse to get vaccinated, I think about when I was young and they came out with the Polio Vaccine. I still remember being given a cube of sugar with the vaccine on it. No one I knew refused the vaccine and Polio disappeared. And other kinds of vaccines protected us from other diseases. So I think people should get vaccinated.


Intelligent decisions were easier to come by back then, with today's influence of online hucksters impressionable people are manipulated into abandoning common sense and duped into thinking that they are taking some kind of "stand" against some kind of imaginary usurpation of their personal freedoms.  smh


----------



## Butterfly

Murrmurr said:


> Yeah, they have to get to the vaccine stations. Unfortunately, there are only 3 in my city and they're not in the areas where they're needed most. The homeless rarely travel out of their territory, and they do have definite territories. I'm not sure why they don't like to, but probably has to do with losing a good sleeping spot that they're accustomed to, and maybe losing the stuff that they can't or won't take with them.


Aren't they giving vaccines at pharmacies in Sacramento?  Here you can get the vaccine almost anywhere.


----------



## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> See post #34.



If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain. That is exactly what is happening in Oakland and Berkeley, California, one clinic is working with local officials to bring Covid-19 vaccines directly to unhoused people. Setting up mobile clinics. Other countries are doing this also. Maybe something for you to consider approaching various authorities in your area?


----------



## SeaBreeze

Pepper said:


> You're a conspiracy nut and if we were in the same room I'd pat your back.  Well, you asked!


I'll get in line.


----------



## oldpop

squatting dog said:


> We “paranoid conspiracy nut's” have been warning that this would happen for the past year and a half. People who refuse to convert to the new official ideology and get the experimental jab are now being segregated, stripped of their jobs, banned from attending schools, denied medical treatment, and otherwise persecuted.


Hold on to your socks the best is yet to come.......


----------



## SeaBreeze

Ruthanne said:


> Here we go again....this is getting old.


Those boogey men are still hiding under their beds.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand. If this and other discussions are getting old, why follow them and reply? Wouldn't it be easier to ignore them?


No.  Then the complainers would have nothing to complain about & no one to ridicule.  And no way to feel.....intelligent.


----------



## SeaBreeze

MrPants said:


> Those who choose to be vaccinated may suffer horrible reactions to the vaccine immediately or at some point in the future. They made their choice so don't complain if things go off the rails.
> 
> Those who choose to be unvaccinated may suffer the consequences of limited freedom of movement in pubic and/or employment opportunities. They made their choice so don't complain if that's the way things go.


Well, look at it this way.  First of all, someone who is vaccinated having "horrible reactions" is very rare, I know of nobody, including myself and my husband who had more than mild side effects which is a normal reaction from the immune system.  In fact, my husband had no side effects at all with the J&J vaccine.  

We both intend to get our booster shots and are glad to have a life saving vaccine available during a deadly worldwide pandemic.  If I have a horrible reaction, it will affect only me.  

This is now the pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It is the unvaccinated who are overflowing our hospitals, affecting the health and well being of our medical workers, and dying in hospitals hooked up to ventilators.  Unvaccinated people are most likely to spread the virus to others and make opening up and living normally much harder to do.

Vaccine mandates for employment is the wise thing to do, since there are so many irresponsible people around.  If they get the vaccine to keep their job, it may also save their lives in the end.  The majority of dead Americans, over 700,000 were unvaccinated.

My taking the vaccine does not affect you or other citizens in a negative way.  Your refusing to take the vaccine affects your community, neighbors and our country as a whole.  The only valid reason someone should not get the vaccine is a medical reason from their doctor, allergy to ingredients, etc.  Many who can't take the COVID19 vaccine also can't take other vaccines either.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Nathan said:


> Intelligent decisions were easier to come by back then, with today's influence of online hucksters impressionable people are manipulated into abandoning common sense and duped into thinking that they are taking some kind of "stand" against some kind of imaginary usurpation of their personal freedoms.  smh


Well said, that is exactly what is happening.


----------



## oldpop

It is very hard for me to not believe that something is going on behind all the mess that has been going on for the last few years. It seems to be some new type of negativity everyday. Maybe it is a conspiracy of some sorts. Maybe it is a money grab. Could be aliens from another dimension or hey it could be God. I do not know but something is definitely going on. Just to many things going wrong. I will say it again. I am preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. That is about the only thing I have any control over at the moment. Peace of mind is all I wanted.

If I wanted to I could go off grid and rarely see another human being and deal with only what is in my little sphere of existence. Plenty of wild edible plants and game around my place. I have been going hunting since I was 4 years old. Got my first shotgun when I was eight and my first rifle when I was twelve. When I was in my twenties I spent a lot of time learning about wild edible plants and their medicinal value. I could survive pretty well until I have to leave the planet.

Knowing how to survive for a while and being prepared is how I get some peace of mind these days and it keeps my mind occupied. It is not like I have my whole life ahead of me. I will say this. Life is to dang short to live in anger and negativity. I have found that if I carry it around with me it will devour me from the inside out. Take that for what it's worth I guess. And now back to the regularly scheduled program "How It Is And How It Was"......


----------



## oldpop

Butterfly said:


> Aren't they giving vaccines at pharmacies in Sacramento?  Here you can get the vaccine almost anywhere.


You can get them at pharmacies here. Even at Wally World.


----------



## MrPants

SeaBreeze said:


> Well, look at it this way.  First of all, someone who is vaccinated having "horrible reactions" is very rare, I know of nobody, including myself and my husband who had more than mild side effects which is a normal reaction from the immune system.  In fact, my husband had no side effects at all with the J&J vaccine.
> 
> We both intend to get our booster shots and are glad to have a life saving vaccine available during a deadly worldwide pandemic.  If I have a horrible reaction, it will affect only me.
> 
> This is now the pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It is the unvaccinated who are overflowing our hospitals, affecting the health and well being of our medical workers, and dying in hospitals hooked up to ventilators.  Unvaccinated people are most likely to spread the virus to others and make opening up and living normally much harder to do.
> 
> Vaccine mandates for employment is the wise thing to do, since there are so many irresponsible people around.  If they get the vaccine to keep their job, it may also save their lives in the end.  The majority of dead Americans, over 700,000 were unvaccinated.
> 
> My taking the vaccine does not affect you or other citizens in a negative way.  Your refusing to take the vaccine affects your community, neighbors and our country as a whole.  The only valid reason someone should not get the vaccine is a medical reason from their doctor, allergy to ingredients, etc.  Many who can't take the COVID19 vaccine also can't take other vaccines either.


I don't disagree with anything you say but I stop short of wanting people to be forced to choose vaccination or any other choice that affects them personally. The mandates currently being instituted (at least here in Canada) are rather draconian but designed to make it very uncomfortable to remain unvaccinated. But, there is still technically a choice for everyone. 

And guess what? The mandates and passport requirements are working! The population of the province I'm in right now is approaching 85% fully vaxxed and our case counts are dropping like a rock so yeah, high vaccination levels really do work! I expect we'll reach around 90% here in the near future and hopefully that will keep things in a good position. At 90% vax rate that still means there will be 1.4 million people in this province alone who still choose to remain unvaccinated. Those people will be basically unemployed shut-ins. Will they still be happy with their choice? Don't know but their ability to encourage propagation of the virus or it's variants will be almost nonexistent.


----------



## Warrigal

Shero said:


> Well, I have mentally "patted your back" and called you the name you called yourself  and I feel good about it.
> 
> What's new in Australia? The government is mandating at a fast rate. In some parts of Australia it has been mandated that if employers do not make sure their workers are vaccinated they pay a fine of $100,000 and for each worker it is $20, 000. Saw on  the news last night, footballers have to be vaccinated in this country or they are sacked!
> Je t’aime Australia


The governments (plural) Shero. We are federation of states, remember?

The Australian Open requires proof of vaccination of all the players and their teams or they cannot compete. This is not a government requirement. The tennis association is insisting on it. No exceptions including last year's champion, Djokovic.

I am currently experiencing pain in my right leg caused by a worn hip joint and I will need a hip replacement fairly soon. I would like to know that the surgeon, his assisant, the anaesthetist, the theatre nurses and the catering staff are all fully vaccinated. I'm sure they would all prefer me to be vaccinated too so I plan to have a booster before booking my hospital stay.

Then I hope that the people looking after me in rehab are also fully immunised. I still want to live to see more great grandchildren arrive.


----------



## Warrigal

Murrmurr said:


> I'm sorry, I don't see any sort of outburst in my comment. In my head, I said it calmly and without malice, I was simply making a point for all to consider, not only you.
> 
> I don't know one homeless person who can afford a vaccine, or who has a current ID to get vaccinated for free. I know 4 who have a Medical card, and who happen to be camped directly across from a Rite-Aid pharmacy, so they were able to be vaccinated.


Covid tests and vaccinations are free to everyone in Australia. Everyone has access.


----------



## Shero

Warrigal said:


> The governments (plural) Shero. We are federation of states, remember?
> 
> The Australian Open requires proof of vaccination of all the players and their teams or they cannot compete. This is not a government requirement. The tennis association is insisting on it. No exceptions including last year's champion, Djokovic.
> 
> I am currently experiencing pain in my right leg caused by a worn hip joint and I will need a hip replacement fairly soon. I would like to know that the surgeon, his assisant, the anaesthetist, the theatre nurses and the catering staff are all fully vaccinated. I'm sure they would all prefer me to be vaccinated too so I plan to have a booster before booking my hospital stay.
> 
> Then I hope that the people looking after me in rehab are also fully immunised. I still want to live to see more great grandchildren arrive.



Because I am not familiar with these terms. I investigated and it appears I am not incorrect at all since the government of Australia is referred to as the *'Australian Government*', not government*s* of Australia. You should know that!

Secondly, I was not speaking of tennis, I was speaking of football and according to the ABC News: the Victorian government has requirements for a range of workers, including *footballers*, who must be vaccinated. Okay?

.


----------



## Murrmurr

Warrigal said:


> Covid tests and vaccinations are free to everyone in Australia. Everyone has access.


Same here, But like I said earlier, the vaccine stations are few and far between, and worst of all, quite a distance from a majority of our homeless camps, especially the larger ones. Also, I mentioned that I know a handful of folks who live in a homeless camp right across from a pharmacy that gives free vaccines; they went there and were vaccinated. But you have to realize, most of these people focus on finding their next meal, or getting a few bucks together for food or alcohol or weed, and just keeping their shoes, jackets and other stuff from getting stolen. Their lives are not at all like yours and mine.

Judging by what they tell me, if the city would go to where they are and set up a vaccine station, they'd line up. Of course, like 50% of them would be turned away for being under the influence of a substance, and some would walk away if they're asked their name and/or date of birth, but still, I think the city should do it. I mean, 45% to 50% is pretty good.


----------



## chic

Becky1951 said:


> "What kind of an excuse for a human being actually says this stuff and means it."
> 
> Ha! Seriously you ask?  There are a few right here in this forum.



Yes, there are. More than a few I'd say. Don't let it scare you, Becky, this is just to enlighten the rest of us to our reality. I remember as a kid reading books and watching war movies where people turned their neighbors in and I wondered, "How could anybody do that to their own?" Now we know.


----------



## Warrigal

Shero said:


> Because I am not familiar with these terms. I investigated and it appears I am not incorrect at all since the government of Australia is referred to as the *'Australian Government*', not government*s* of Australia. You should know that!
> 
> Secondly, I was not speaking of tennis, I was speaking of football and according to the ABC News: the Victorian government has requirements for a range of workers, including *footballers*, who must be vaccinated. Okay?
> 
> .


My point was that there are multiple governments in Australia issuing their own rules about vaccines. In some states, but not all, there are different quarantine requirements for fully vaccinated people (7 days) and for unvaccinated people (14 days). There are also certain occupations where vaccination is mandated and depending on whether they are governed by the states e.g. health and education, or by the commonwealth, the mandates can vary considerably.

In addition, non government agencies and commercial enterprises can require vaccination as a condition of employment as a duty of care for all of their employees.

My state, NSW, currently requires that places of worship can only permit fully vaccinated people to participate so my church has decided that we will not reopen until everyone can enter our building. In the meantime we are making do with online services. We are not prepared to ask people for proof of vaccination to worship and partake in the sacraments. It is unthinkable but unfortunately some places of worship have been a problem by defying the covid safe rules and have been the source of new clusters of infection.


----------



## Tom 86

I see a lot of crap on TV about how nurses & Drs are now being fired because of not getting the shot. Nowadays, the hospitals are crying because they do not have enough help. 

What happened to all these Drs & nurses that have been in the hospital since day one in 2020 fighting to keep people alive. Of course, they never had any shots back then.  But it was ok with the hospitals for them to work.  Did the dictator over in DC make them change??


----------



## Shero

Warrigal said:


> My point was that there are multiple governments in Australia issuing their own rules about vaccines. In some states, but not all, there are different quarantine requirements for fully vaccinated people (7 days) and for unvaccinated people (14 days). There are also certain occupations where vaccination is mandated and depending on whether they are governed by the states e.g. health and education, or by the commonwealth, the mandates can vary considerably.
> 
> In addition, non government agencies and commercial enterprises can require vaccination as a condition of employment as a duty of care for all of their employees.
> 
> My state, NSW, currently requires that places of worship can only permit fully vaccinated people to participate so my church has decided that we will not reopen until everyone can enter our building. In the meantime we are making do with online services. We are not prepared to ask people for proof of vaccination to worship and partake in the sacraments. It is unthinkable but unfortunately some places of worship have been a problem by defying the covid safe rules and have been the source of new clusters of infection.



Not a problem Warrigal


----------



## Aneeda72

squatting dog said:


> We “paranoid conspiracy nut's” have been warning that this would happen for the past year and a half. People who refuse to convert to the new official ideology and get the experimental jab are now being segregated, stripped of their jobs, banned from attending schools, denied medical treatment, and otherwise persecuted.


I disagree  I said long ago that this would happen and I am not a conspiracy nut, but a realistic person


----------



## Aneeda72

Packerjohn said:


> I am sick and tired of the media and those stupid photos of those long sticks being shoved up people's noses.  This has been going on now for pretty well 20 months.  When I see those daily titles in the media:  "Coronavirus: What's Happening in Canada and the world" I never read them.  I wish those 20/30 year old would stop trying to look sexy behind the masks and do some good in this world like figure out how to stop climate change.  I got my passport, I'm moving to a new apartment at the end of next month and the best of all, I GOT A LIFE.  I don't need media "doom and gloom".


You are behind the times, you now spit in a tube and avoid stick, up the nose that is.  Men are good at spitting, they do it everywhere


----------



## Shero

.
Over 3,000 health workers in France were suspended because they have not been vaccinated against Covid-19. A new rule came into force made vaccination mandatory for the country's 2.7 million health, care home and fire service staff.
Many are now agreeing to get jabbed because they see that the vaccination mandate is a reality. The rule applies to all doctors, nurses, office staff and volunteers.

After President Macron’s announcement in September, Doctolib, the website people use to book their jabs, crashed as so many people tried to secure appointments.
.


----------



## Aneeda72

chic said:


> What about the poor innocent children they want to jab. They're not making any decision yet may suffer for the government's decision for them.


Parents make decision for their children.  It has always been this way, always will be this way.  Btw, children in this day and age in the so called advanced countries are not innocent.  Even my son Joey who has Down Syndrome and an IQ of 53, realized that having Covid-19 and being admitted to the hospital could be a death sentence.


----------



## win231

Tom 86 said:


> I see a lot of crap on TV about how nurses & Drs are now being fired because of not getting the shot. Nowadays, the hospitals are crying because they do not have enough help.
> 
> What happened to all these Drs & nurses that have been in the hospital since day one in 2020 fighting to keep people alive. Of course, they never had any shots back then.  But it was ok with the hospitals for them to work.  Did the dictator over in DC make them change??


Yeah, we're supposed to believe there is a "Shortage" of doctors & nurses, but let's fire them if they don't want to risk their health with an experimental vaccine.
One of many things that don't add up - along with letting unvaccinated illegals in by the hundreds............


----------



## Aneeda72

chic said:


> Let's put them in jail. Let them sit and think for thirty days about what THEY are doing to the rest of us. If they still won't get with the program and take the jab, then they'll have to be separated from the rest of decent society. As my favorite Australian has said, "we can't just let the unavaccinated run around wherever they want." Yes, let's bring that forward thinking to America. Of course, Americans are armed and Australians are not so that might be a tiny problem. But it comes down to this : we cannot allow these dangerous, disease spreading, unvaccinated cretans to mingle with the rest of us. They have NO excuses and only themselves to blame. Tongue very much in cheek. What kind of an excuse for a human being actually says this stuff and means it.
> 
> View attachment 190423


Delta has changed everything.  I no longer think vaccinated or unvaccinated matters at all.  What matters is finding a way to stay alive.


----------



## Aneeda72

Butterfly said:


> Aren't they giving vaccines at pharmacies in Sacramento?  Here you can get the vaccine almost anywhere.


Here as well


----------



## Aneeda72

SeaBreeze said:


> Well, look at it this way.  First of all, someone who is vaccinated having "horrible reactions" is very rare, I know of nobody, including myself and my husband who had more than mild side effects which is a normal reaction from the immune system.  In fact, my husband had no side effects at all with the J&J vaccine.
> 
> We both intend to get our booster shots and are glad to have a life saving vaccine available during a deadly worldwide pandemic.  If I have a horrible reaction, it will affect only me.
> 
> This is now the pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It is the unvaccinated who are overflowing our hospitals, affecting the health and well being of our medical workers, and dying in hospitals hooked up to ventilators.  Unvaccinated people are most likely to spread the virus to others and make opening up and living normally much harder to do.
> 
> Vaccine mandates for employment is the wise thing to do, since there are so many irresponsible people around.  If they get the vaccine to keep their job, it may also save their lives in the end.  The majority of dead Americans, over 700,000 were unvaccinated.
> 
> My taking the vaccine does not affect you or other citizens in a negative way.  Your refusing to take the vaccine affects your community, neighbors and our country as a whole.  The only valid reason someone should not get the vaccine is a medical reason from their doctor, allergy to ingredients, etc.  Many who can't take the COVID19 vaccine also can't take other vaccines either.


I too thought this had become a pamdemic of the unvaccinated until my fully vaccinated son caught covid from his fully vaccinated friend at the sheltered workshop where everyone is fully vaccinated; and which is now shut down due to all the clients, who are fully vaccinated that have caught Covid.  

*It is rare that I give advice, but here is my advice.  Get the booster, wear your mask, worry less about the unvaccinated and more about the vaccinated who are catching Covid and passing it along.

Delta is a game changer.*


----------



## Aneeda72

Warrigal said:


> The governments (plural) Shero. We are federation of states, remember?
> 
> The Australian Open requires proof of vaccination of all the players and their teams or they cannot compete. This is not a government requirement. The tennis association is insisting on it. No exceptions including last year's champion, Djokovic.
> 
> I am currently experiencing pain in my right leg caused by a worn hip joint and I will need a hip replacement fairly soon. I would like to know that the surgeon, his assisant, the anaesthetist, the theatre nurses and the catering staff are all fully vaccinated. I'm sure they would all prefer me to be vaccinated too so I plan to have a booster before booking my hospital stay.
> 
> Then I hope that the people looking after me in rehab are also fully immunised. I still want to live to see more great grandchildren arrive.


You go to rehab after a replacement?  Here, we just go home.


----------



## squatting dog

Sassycakes said:


> Everytime I hear someone say they refuse to get vaccinated, I think about when I was young and they came out with the Polio Vaccine. I still remember being given a cube of sugar with the vaccine on it. No one I knew refused the vaccine and Polio disappeared. And other kinds of vaccines protected us from other diseases. So I think people should get vaccinated.


Kind of surprised that you don't seem to remember the disaster "Cutter Incident" from their experimental polio vaccine, or the fact that polio vaccines were first tried in the 1930's and it wasn't until the 50's that the vaccine became commonplace. So, that vaccine took years, not months to perfect.


----------



## squatting dog

Nathan said:


> LOL, congratulations!
> View attachment 190428


Back to you. LOL


----------



## Warrigal

Aneeda72 said:


> You go to rehab after a replacement?  Here, we just go home.


It's an optional extra. Two weeks in a cottage hospital devoted to rehab for people who have mostly had knee and hip replacements. It is pure luxury - a single room, great meals, physios who bring you forward gradually - not too slow and not too fast - a heated swimming pool and a small gym. There are nurses and doctors available. After the two weeks as an inpatient there is an outpatient program of physio involving two sessions of gym and pool over 4 weeks.

I have private health insurance and I am fully covered for this program. It has certainly helped my recovery from previous joint surgeries. I should have frequent flyer points by now. Given that this will be my 4th replacement surgery with the same surgeon I might suggest a discount for his services.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Aneeda72 said:


> I too thought this had become a pamdemic of the unvaccinated until my fully vaccinated son caught covid from his fully vaccinated friend at the sheltered workshop where everyone is fully vaccinated; and which is now shut down due to all the clients, who are fully vaccinated that have caught Covid.
> 
> *It is rare that I give advice, but here is my advice.  Get the booster, wear your mask, worry less about the unvaccinated and more about the vaccinated who are catching Covid and passing it along.
> 
> Delta is a game changer.*


Aneeda, I'm very sorry about your son and wish him the best.  You are right about Delta being a game changer, but it's still a fact that unvaccinated people are more likely to spread the virus, and more likely to be hospitalized and die from it.  Hopefully a new variant won't come into play and make things worse.  Good advice about boosters and masks, thank you.


----------



## Judycat

Ah believe what you want. It's a free country still. I never believed I'd be immune to catching Covid. It is a corona virus, the common cold is a corona virus. The common cold virus has many variants this is why there has never been a cure for it. The flu is a virus that also has many variants. Every year a new flu shot is necessary. It's the idiotic conspiracy stuff like, when they inject the vaccine, they inject an egg that hatches  a parasite inside you, or you become magnetic, you get a tracking chip the Mark of the Beast or other stupid damn crap that I find irritating. I tend to lump you all in the same pile of dumb then. Sheesh. But please Don't let me interrupt...


----------



## chic

win231 said:


> Yeah, we're supposed to believe there is a "Shortage" of doctors & nurses, but let's fire them if they don't want to risk their health with an experimental vaccine.
> One of many things that don't add up - along with letting unvaccinated illegals in by the hundreds............


I agree. If, in reality, it was that bad they wouldn't be doing this. It's suspicious.


----------



## chic

squatting dog said:


> Kind of surprised that you don't seem to remember the disaster "Cutter Incident" from their experimental polio vaccine, or the fact that polio vaccines were first tried in the 1930's and it wasn't until the 50's that the vaccine became commonplace. So, that vaccine took years, not months to perfect.


Most vaccines do which is another thing that makes THIS vaccine particularly suspicious. I mean you can get covid, transmit it, be hospitalized with it and die from it just like the unvaxxed so why are the unvaxxed being vilified and losing their jobs?


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> Delta has changed everything.  I no longer think vaccinated or unvaccinated matters at all.  What matters is finding a way to stay alive.


You have learned what the "Experts" & the vaccine pushers don't want to admit.


----------



## Nathan

Tom 86 said:


> I see a lot of crap on TV about how nurses & Drs are now being fired because of not getting the shot. Nowadays, the hospitals are crying because they do not have enough help.
> 
> What happened to all these Drs & nurses that have been in the hospital since day one in 2020 fighting to keep people alive. Of course, they never had any shots back then.  But it was ok with the hospitals for them to work.  *Did the dictator over in DC make them change??*


The dictator is gone, the grown-ups are back in charge now.


----------



## Nathan

squatting dog said:


> Back to you. LOL


Smooth comeback.

I love your sig: "There are no "Anti-Vaxxers"...
Just normal people and vaccine cultists."       

 Pretty much reflects the alternate universe view of reality.


----------



## win231

squatting dog said:


> Kind of surprised that you don't seem to remember the disaster "Cutter Incident" from their experimental polio vaccine, or the fact that polio vaccines were first tried in the 1930's and it wasn't until the 50's that the vaccine became commonplace. So, that vaccine took years, not months to perfect.


Fools who want to play the "Covid Blame Game" only remember what fits their narrative & doesn't interfere with their need to feel good about themselves.


----------



## Nathan

win231 said:


> Fools who want to play the "Covid Blame Game" only remember what fits their narrative & doesn't interfere with their need to feel good about themselves.


Fear is a strong tool for manipulation which the conspiracy peddlers use with great precision.


----------



## ManjaroKDE

squatting dog said:


> Kind of surprised that you don't seem to remember the disaster "Cutter Incident" from their experimental polio vaccine, or the fact that polio vaccines were first tried in the 1930's and it wasn't until the 50's that the vaccine became commonplace. So, that vaccine took years, not months to perfect.


Science and research has surely improved in the last 100 years.  They used to think that bloodletting was the answer.


----------



## Pepper

Ugh.  Leeches are still used in medicine for certain conditions.  Ugh.


----------



## oldpop

On the lighter side here is another conspiracy theory to ponder. Maybe _they _seeded the clouds with a mindless idiot powder and that is what is causing all the brouhaha?...............


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> You have learned what the "Experts" & the vaccine pushers don't want to admit.


I kind of agree with you @win231 and @Becky1951 who wrote, I think, a long ago about the fact that the unvaccinated breakthrough cases were being underreported.  After being told by the director of the group homes that she was unaware of the cases of Covid in the sheltered workshop, well, dang.

Had those cases been reported or shared with that director my son might not have gotten Covid.  He certainly would have been tested, if they had known Erika, to see if he had Covid.  He could have gotten treatment sooner and avoided, perhaps, hospitalization.

My older son, exposed to delta by his brother, went today and got tested.  He tested negative but you really need to wait a full 7 days after exposure.  In any event, the health department did not tell him to quarantine, as they had in the past.

I believe the “hidden” information is, you either get it or you don’t.


----------



## Sassycakes

It's funny I had to go to Urgent Care yesterday and I was talking to a lady that was there. She mentioned her son and said he was on a trip. She said he didn't believe in getting vaccinated but since he was going on a plane he was worried so he got a fake vaccination card, stating he was vaccinated. I thought OMG I don't know how he did it. People can be weird.


----------



## win231

Pepper said:


> Ugh.  Leeches are still used in medicine for certain conditions.  Ugh.


The Leeches that are used medically are not just collected from swamps.  They are raised in a sterile environment for that purpose.  I have seen interesting documentaries on their use.  They have saved legs & arms that were scheduled for amputation due to blood clots & other conditions.
Medically-raised Maggots are also used for that purpose.  Maggots only eat decaying tissue, so they have been used to consume gangrene-type infection in a severe wound.


----------



## AnnieA

If proof of immunity were accepted, the prohibitions would make more sense.

More and more hard science  including recent Israeli and even more recent British data show antibodies of those previously infected are as protective as vaccine mediated ones.

Proof of immunity is easily obtained by an antibody titer blood test.

At one of the long term care facilities I consult for,  three nurses are tracking their antibodies.  All three contracted Covid in 2020.  Two were fully vaccinated in April 2021, the third is not vaccinated.  The nurse with the highest antibody levels is recovered and vaccinated.   In second place is the recovered, unvaccinated nurse and the lowest (adequate titers still) is recovered and vaccinated.   All three should be able to present their most recent antibody titer results to go anywhere they choose.


----------



## Butterfly

SeaBreeze said:


> Well, look at it this way.  First of all, someone who is vaccinated having "horrible reactions" is very rare, I know of nobody, including myself and my husband who had more than mild side effects which is a normal reaction from the immune system.  In fact, my husband had no side effects at all with the J&J vaccine.
> 
> We both intend to get our booster shots and are glad to have a life saving vaccine available during a deadly worldwide pandemic.  If I have a horrible reaction, it will affect only me.
> 
> This is now the pandemic of the unvaccinated.  It is the unvaccinated who are overflowing our hospitals, affecting the health and well being of our medical workers, and dying in hospitals hooked up to ventilators.  Unvaccinated people are most likely to spread the virus to others and make opening up and living normally much harder to do.
> 
> Vaccine mandates for employment is the wise thing to do, since there are so many irresponsible people around.  If they get the vaccine to keep their job, it may also save their lives in the end.  The majority of dead Americans, over 700,000 were unvaccinated.
> 
> My taking the vaccine does not affect you or other citizens in a negative way.  Your refusing to take the vaccine affects your community, neighbors and our country as a whole.  The only valid reason someone should not get the vaccine is a medical reason from their doctor, allergy to ingredients, etc.  Many who can't take the COVID19 vaccine also can't take other vaccines either.


Well said, SeaBreeze!   Neither I, nor anybody I discuss such things with, know anyone who has had any "horrible reactions" to the vaccine.  But we DO know people who have become very sick and/or died of covid.


----------



## Warrigal

According to something I heard yesterday, a recent survey indicates that one in five Americans knows someone who had died of Covid - either a family member or close acquaintance. I have no details however. Anyone else heard this statistic?


----------



## Buckeye

Warrigal said:


> According to something I heard yesterday, a recent survey indicates that one in five Americans knows someone who had died of Covid - either a family member or close acquaintance. I have no details however. Anyone else heard this statistic?


Sounds reasonable.  330 million Americans divided by 700 thousands Covid deaths => 1 in every 472 of Americans died from Covid.  I've read the average person knows 600 other people.  I've lost a cousin and her husband to Covid

OTOH I do not know anyone who has had a issue with getting vaccinated.


----------



## Warrigal

I don't personally know anyone who has died from covid although several of the elderly people that I know have died recently from other causes and we were unable to attend their funerals due to restrictions on indoor gatherings. For the same reason we were unable to attend our niece's wedding last year.

I know of just one person who has had Covid and had to be hospitalised. Happily she has recovered but the hospital experience was not good. 

I only know one person who has not taken advantage of vaccination. He is a mature age university student who wants to be a physiotherapist. If he doesn't get vaccinated he might be excluded from face to face lectures and may need to study by distance education. That will disadvantage him against the other students, especially with regard to practical work. I expect that by next year it won't matter. It all depends on what the virus throws at us next.


----------



## chic

Warrigal said:


> According to something I heard yesterday, a recent survey indicates that one in five Americans knows someone who had died of Covid - either a family member or close acquaintance. I have no details however. Anyone else heard this statistic?


I don't know anyone who has died of covid. I don't even know of anyone who has been hospitalized with it. I must be one of the four. But I do know @Gary O's son died from the vaccine.


----------



## garyt1957

Warrigal said:


> According to something I heard yesterday, a recent survey indicates that one in five Americans knows someone who had died of Covid - either a family member or close acquaintance. I have no details however. Anyone else heard this statistic?


I know 5 who died, 3 of which I saw pretty regularly.


----------



## Jackie23

I live in a small town rural area, I know of 4 people that have died of COVID, none were vaccinated.


----------



## ManjaroKDE

My neighbor in AZ passed away from an embolism brought on by Covid before any vaccines were approved.  He was the one I bought my 5th Wheel from, he was a year older than I and looked in perfect health, later his wife said he had heart problems.


----------



## Packerjohn

Shero said:


> Well, I have mentally "patted your back" and called you the name you called yourself  and I feel good about it.
> 
> What's new in Australia? The government is mandating at a fast rate. In some parts of Australia it has been mandated that if employers do not make sure their workers are vaccinated they pay a fine of $100,000 and for each worker it is $20, 000. Saw on  the news last night, footballers have to be vaccinated in this country or they are sacked!
> Je t’aime Australia


WOW!  If Hitler and Stalin were alive they would give a "high five" at the news from Australia!


----------



## RadishRose

Sassycakes said:


> since he was going on a plane he was worried so he got a fake vaccination card, stating he was vaccinated.


He could have killed people!
Weird? No, damn selfish. He should be locked up!


----------



## win231

Sassycakes said:


> It's funny I had to go to Urgent Care yesterday and I was talking to a lady that was there. She mentioned her son and said he was on a trip. She said he didn't believe in getting vaccinated but since he was going on a plane he was worried so he got a fake vaccination card, stating he was vaccinated. I thought OMG I don't know how he did it. People can be weird.


Vaccination cards are sold online.


----------



## HoneyNut

Buckeye said:


> Sounds reasonable. 330 million Americans divided by 700 thousands Covid deaths => 1 in every 472 of Americans died from Covid. I've read the average person knows 600 other people. I've lost a cousin and her husband to Covid
> 
> OTOH I do not know anyone who has had a issue with getting vaccinated.


Same here, nobody where I work has died, but about one in ten have had Covid, and two lost family members to Covid (and one person's friend's mom died of covid).  Nobody who has gotten vaccinated has had a serious issue, just sore arms and sometimes a crummy day with a fever (tho one person's elderly husband had a rather high fever for three days).
We just got informed this past week that vaccines are mandated for our jobs.  I think it is great, but there is one person who will probably quit because she doesn't believe she should have to get vaccinated since 'only' 1% of people die (her stat is low), but I continue to feel quite shocked how cheap other peoples lives are to some people who I has assumed were 'good' people.  I can sympathize with young people who didn't want to go fight and die in a foreign war that seemed to just be a game for politicians, but that people won't even submit to a vaccination to help protect people they live among is just really causing me to feel such disappointment and sorrow about the coldness of humans.


----------



## win231

HoneyNut said:


> Same here, nobody where I work has died, but about one in ten have had Covid, and two lost family members to Covid (and one person's friend's mom died of covid).  Nobody who has gotten vaccinated has had a serious issue, just sore arms and sometimes a crummy day with a fever (tho one person's elderly husband had a rather high fever for three days).
> We just got informed this past week that vaccines are mandated for our jobs.  I think it is great, but there is one person who will probably quit because she doesn't believe she should have to get vaccinated since 'only' 1% of people die (her stat is low), but I continue to feel quite shocked how cheap other peoples lives are to some people who I has assumed were 'good' people.  I can sympathize with young people who didn't want to go fight and die in a foreign war that seemed to just be a game for politicians, but that people won't even submit to a vaccination to help protect people they live among is just really causing me to feel such disappointment and sorrow about the coldness of humans.


Yessir, anybody who doesn't submit to a vaccine, drug, or medical test or procedure is selfish, inconsiderate, cold & cruel.  And they don't care about others - 'cuz you say so.
By the way, when was your last TB test? Tuberculosis is airborne.  If you don't get one every time you leave your house, you are selfish, cold & cruel.  And you're spreading a deadly disease.
How about your Smallpox booster?
Meningitis Vaccine?
Here's a partial list of highly-contagious diseases you could be spreading to others due to your selfishness & refusal to get tested & vaccinated:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacci... and serious,, tuberculosis, and yellow fever.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Yessir, anybody who doesn't submit to a vaccine, drug, or medical test or procedure is selfish, inconsiderate, cold & cruel.  And they don't care about others - 'cuz you say so.
> By the way, when was your last TB test? Tuberculosis is airborne.  If you don't get one every time you leave your house, you are selfish, cold & cruel.  And you're spreading a deadly disease.
> How about your Smallpox booster?
> Meningitis Vaccine?
> Here's a partial list of highly-contagious diseases you could be spreading to others due to your selfishness & refusal to get tested & vaccinated:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-preventable_diseases#:~:text=The most common and serious,, tuberculosis, and yellow fever.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


>


LOL - you have no comment on my post, so........unhappy faces will just have to suffice.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> LOL - you have no comment on my post, so........unhappy faces will just have to suffice.


I commented


----------



## Pepper

Aneeda72 said:


> I commented


A picture can be worth a thousand words!


----------



## Jules

win231 said:


> Vaccination cards are sold online.


A card isn’t good enough here because they can be faked.  As of today we have to have download proof of our second shot. It can be to your photo or to paper.  The QR code is unique to you and your NAME is on the top. Businesses that are required to scan the code and check that your name matches.


----------



## win231

Pepper said:


> A picture can be worth a thousand words!


It certainly can.
When you've got nothing better.


----------



## Pepper

Just a lame attempt to be cheerful, @win231   Not working I guess, I'm new to the cheerful game.


----------



## Murrmurr

I know one person who died of covid who was vaccinated; my mom. She was 89.
I know 1 guy who had very serious complications from the vaccine; Josh, a friend of mine who races bicycles and teaches bike racing. He's 29.

Age is an important factor. 

Also, about 30 seconds after Josh got his 2nd vaccination he said he got this odd metallic taste in his mouth. According to his PCP, you get that taste when the nurse fails to aspirate the needle, causing the vaccine to get in your blood. So that's another important factor.


----------



## win231

Pepper said:


> Just a lame attempt to be cheerful, @win231   Not working I guess, I'm new to the cheerful game.


^^^ Another case in point; Nothing better.


----------



## Shero

Packerjohn said:


> WOW!  If Hitler and Stalin were alive they would give a "high five" at the news from Australia!



Is that so? Well Australia does not have the death rate like the US and even the American President is taking note of what the Australians are doing. 
Put that in your clay pipe and smoke it pardner 
.


----------



## Aneeda72

Shero said:


> Is that so? Well Australia does not have the death rate like the US and even the American President is taking note of what the Australians are doing.
> Put that in your clay pipe and smoke it pardner
> .


From the very beginning most Americans have preferred to risk death rather than isolate.  We continue to have that mind set.  Also, each individual is very independent, too many cowboys movies in our childhood, too many guns, too many stand your ground laws.

Utah never really shut down.  While we remember watching the pictures of isolation wards in NYC, and relatives visiting Covid patients by iPad, due to the vaccines, things have changed.  I was able to visit my son with Covid wearing only a face mask.

Our President may take note of what the Australians are doing, the American people would rebel.


----------



## chic

Murrmurr said:


> I know one person who died of covid who was vaccinated; my mom. She was 89.
> I know 1 guy who had very serious complications from the vaccine; Josh, a friend of mine who races bicycles and teaches bike racing. He's 29.
> 
> Age is an important factor.
> 
> Also, about 30 seconds after Josh got his 2nd vaccination he said he got this odd metallic taste in his mouth. According to his PCP, you get that taste when the nurse fails to aspirate the needle, causing the vaccine to get in your blood. So that's another important factor.


Is he the mountain biker who's made some videos about his experience? If so, I've watched him and have been impressed by his story. French tennis player Jeremy Chardy has had a similar negative experience with the vaccine. I'm grateful for these rational people speaking out, otherwise the whole world would label this a conspiracy theory. It's not. Adverse reactions do exist. My condolences about your Mom.


----------



## Buckeye

Murrmurr said:


> I know one person who died of covid who was vaccinated; my mom. She was 89.
> I know 1 guy who had very serious complications from the vaccine; Josh, a friend of mine who races bicycles and teaches bike racing. He's 29.
> 
> Age is an important factor.
> 
> Also, about 30 seconds after Josh got his 2nd vaccination he said he got this odd metallic taste in his mouth. According to his PCP, you get that taste when the nurse fails to aspirate the needle, causing the vaccine to get in your blood. So that's another important factor.


My condolences for the loss of your mother.  My mother is 98, fully vaxxed, and was able to get through a bout of Covid with no ill affects.

As of today, almost 414 million doses of vaccine has been administered in the US.  96.3% of us seniors have had at least one jab.  I'm sorry to hear of your friend's issues, but let's keep it in perspective.


----------



## Packerjohn

Yap!  Almost 20 months of this Covid fighting going on.  I do believe that I don't know of one person that has Covid or those "variants of interest".  Neither do I know 1 person that has died from this disease.  The only people I heard that have it or are dead from it are on the news.  I guess I'm pretty lucky to live out here "in God's Country."  I'm no medical doctor but I believe that many things that happen to you are just the way the dice roll or the way that the cards are stacked.  Some stacked in your favour.  Others are stacked against you.  However, washing your hands often and keeping away from sick people helps the cards or those dice to be in your favour!


----------



## Aneeda72

Packerjohn said:


> Yap!  Almost 20 months of this Covid fighting going on.  I do believe that I don't know of one person that has Covid or those "variants of interest".  Neither do I know 1 person that has died from this disease.  The only people I heard that have it or are dead from it are on the news.  I guess I'm pretty lucky to live out here "in God's Country."  I'm no medical doctor but I believe that many things that happen to you are just the way the dice roll or the way that the cards are stacked.  Some stacked in your favour.  Others are stacked against you.  However, washing your hands often and keeping away from sick people helps the cards or those dice to be in your favour!


Many people on senior forum have had it or their relatives have had it.  Seems like me, you might not know many people.


----------



## John cycling

Packerjohn said:


> Yap!  Almost 20 months of this Covid fighting going on.  I do believe that I don't know of one person that has Covid or those "variants of interest".  Neither do I know 1 person that has died from this disease.  The only people I heard that have it or are dead from it are on the news.



I don't know of anyone who's died from it either.
No one that I know of who hasn't been shot with the poisons has even been sick.
Conversely, everyone that I know of who's been shot with the poisons has been sick, and many of them are already dead.
Plus a lot of people have been dying in hospitals from their treatments, such as being paralyzed, poisoned and choked to death.

The basic truth is that *a covid19 virus has never been isolated.  *
The statement on virus isolation, <--
A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and the lack of virus isolation.

Personally, I've not worn a mask at all for the last two years, except once when renewing my drivers license 14 months ago which they still haven't sent to me.  I haven't changed much at all from two years ago, except for getting healthier and in better condition.  Why?   Because I've never been shot with any of the poisonous petroleum concoctions since almost dying from them as a child.  Since then I have stayed far, far away from the dangerously ignorant people who push the petroleum-chemical poisons, *and I have kept getting healther and in better condition.*

P.S.  To the rude ignorant people like @garyt1957 - newspaper articles are not facts, and they don't "refute" anything.


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

@squatting dog Okay. I'll call you a conspiracy nut, but I sure as heck won't pat your back. You're a conspiracy nut. Feel better now?

And BTW @Packerjohn and @John cycling, my brother died of covid. Neither my brother nor my DSIL have been in the news.

My DSIL had covid and was lucky to get the monoclonal antibody infusion. He's recovered now and counting the days when he can get the vaccine. Once you've had the infusion, you can't get the vaccine for 90 days. Is he sorry he didn't get the vaccine? Ya, you betcha. Fortunately for the rest of us, we were all fully vaccinated when he got sick. He works with the public (masked), and when he got sick it finally registered with him that somebody else who wouldn't get vaccinated passed covid along to him. One of his employees? One of his customers? We'll never know. We are, and he is, glad he's alive.

It's as much about _*protecting others*_ as it is about protecting yourself. People who refuse the vaccine for various and sundry stupid reasons are selfish and unconcerned about not just their health but the health and welfare of everybody else.

Have you had smallpox? Polio? No? I rest my case.


----------



## Ruthanne

GeorgiaXplant said:


> @squatting dog Okay. I'll call you a conspiracy nut, but I sure as heck won't pat your back. You're a conspiracy nut. Feel better now?
> 
> And BTW @Packerjohn and @John cycling, my brother died of covid. Neither my brother nor my DSIL have been in the news.
> 
> My DSIL had covid and was lucky to get the monoclonal antibody infusion. He's recovered now and counting the days when he can get the vaccine. Once you've had the infusion, you can't get the vaccine for 90 days. Is he sorry he didn't get the vaccine? Ya, you betcha. Fortunately for the rest of us, we were all fully vaccinated when he got sick. He works with the public (masked), and when he got sick it finally registered with him that somebody else who wouldn't get vaccinated passed covid along to him. One of his employees? One of his customers? We'll never know. We are, and he is, glad he's alive.
> 
> It's as much about _*protecting others*_ as it is about protecting yourself. People who refuse the vaccine for various and sundry stupid reasons are selfish and unconcerned about not just their health but the health and welfare of everybody else.
> 
> Have you had smallpox? Polio? No? I rest my case.


I'm very sorry you lost your brother


----------



## Purwell

@John cycling please stay away from me as well.


----------



## SeaBreeze

GeorgiaXplant said:


> @squatting dog Okay. I'll call you a conspiracy nut, but I sure as heck won't pat your back. You're a conspiracy nut. Feel better now?
> 
> And BTW @Packerjohn and @John cycling, my brother died of covid. Neither my brother nor my DSIL have been in the news.
> 
> My DSIL had covid and was lucky to get the monoclonal antibody infusion. He's recovered now and counting the days when he can get the vaccine. Once you've had the infusion, you can't get the vaccine for 90 days. Is he sorry he didn't get the vaccine? Ya, you betcha. Fortunately for the rest of us, we were all fully vaccinated when he got sick. He works with the public (masked), and when he got sick it finally registered with him that somebody else who wouldn't get vaccinated passed covid along to him. One of his employees? One of his customers? We'll never know. We are, and he is, glad he's alive.
> 
> It's as much about _*protecting others*_ as it is about protecting yourself. People who refuse the vaccine for various and sundry stupid reasons are selfish and unconcerned about not just their health but the health and welfare of everybody else.
> 
> Have you had smallpox? Polio? No? I rest my case.


Well said Georgia, and point well taken.  My condolences for the loss of your brother, may he rest peacefully.  I'm glad your DSIL has recovered and looking forward to the day when he can get the vaccine.  Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us, an eye opener to the reality of this deadly virus.  Hopefully some will wake up and listen before it's too late.  My sister's husband's brother is the only one I know who has died from a COVID-19 infection, it was before the vaccine was readily available yet.


----------



## WheatenLover

I've had 4 people I know get Covid. Two were fully vaccinated and recovered quickly from light cases.

One was my best friend, who worked in a nursing home, but there was no vaccine available in Jan 2020.

One was my ex-husband, who has two major underlying health conditions, is unvaccinated, and is in a nursing home for rehab.

All four survived, thank goodness, and none had to be intubated.


----------



## Warrigal

win231 said:


> Yessir, anybody who doesn't submit to a vaccine, drug, or medical test or procedure is selfish, inconsiderate, cold & cruel.  And they don't care about others - 'cuz you say so.
> By the way, when was your last TB test? Tuberculosis is airborne.  If you don't get one every time you leave your house, you are selfish, cold & cruel.  And you're spreading a deadly disease.
> How about your Smallpox booster?
> Meningitis Vaccine?
> Here's a partial list of highly-contagious diseases you could be spreading to others due to your selfishness & refusal to get tested & vaccinated:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-preventable_diseases#:~:text=The most common and serious,, tuberculosis, and yellow fever.


Win, you are being deliberately obtuse but I will answer your question in case you are being serious.

I was regularly skin tested for TB as a child and received the BCG serum to immunise me. At that time TB was making a comeback in Australia and my grandfather had it. TB has since disappeared in my country thanks to those public health measures.

Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide because of global efforts and mass immunisation in places where it was endemic. However, a small pox scar on the arm was commonly seen when I was young. It was a requirement for people who travelled overseas.

Meningitis vaccine? I was vaccinated for this in 2000 when we travelled in Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Kenya because it was not uncommon that people flying to Australia were carriers and then all of the other passengers were at risk. We decided that vaccination was a good idea, not just for ourselves but for family members, friends and neighbours and anyone else we might possibly infect. Going into quarantine was not an attractive proposition either.

Yellow fever? Is that a problem in US? It is not something we have to deal with in Australia. I was not advised to vaccinate for yellow fever when we travelled around the western states in 1985. However, if I were needing to travel to places where it was endemic I would certainly investigate any measures that would offer me some protection. When we visited Kenya were took precautions to avoid being bitten by mosquitoes carrying malaria but at that time there was no vaccine available. We used tropical strength insect repellent, wore long sleeves and took some tablets that the doctor prescribed. Our bed has a net strung to keep the insects out. Anything to lessen the risk. Looking back, these measures were very similar to using hand sanitiser, masks and maintaining social distancing against Covid. If I was travelling today I would consider vaccination against malaria and dengue fever if I to certain countries.

I drive a car. Every time I do this I take a greater risk of becoming maimed or worse in a traffic accident than I ever do by getting vaccinated. I choose to accept both risks because the benefits outweigh them by many orders of magnitude. Some people are too afraid to drive and others are too afraid to be vaccinated and they should not be ridiculed for their fear but I get angry when people deliberately spread fear with exaggerated stories of the risks involved. Death is not a small risk but the risk of death from diseases like TB, malaria, meningitis and Covid is much more than the risk of the vaccines.


----------



## Buckeye

I stole this from a facebook friend.  The moral of the story is that the anti-vaxx folks will always insist that the grass is blue, no matter what facts are given to them. 

The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue."
The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"
The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue."
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."
The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..."
The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"
The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."
The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?"
The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. _There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t. _
*When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.*

Consequently I'm moving on.  And the anti-vaxx folks can continue to bray.

Have a great day!


----------



## Warrigal

Aneeda72 said:


> From the very beginning most Americans have preferred to risk death rather than isolate.  We continue to have that mind set.  Also, each individual is very independent, too many cowboys movies in our childhood, too many guns, too many stand your ground laws.
> 
> Utah never really shut down.  While we remember watching the pictures of isolation wards in NYC, and relatives visiting Covid patients by iPad, due to the vaccines, things have changed.  I was able to visit my son with Covid wearing only a face mask.
> 
> Our President may take note of what the Australians are doing, the American people would rebel.


Never a truer word was written. When Americans look at Australia and think that we are just like Americans they are not seeing who we really are. We are different but we are not a down trodden population unable to resist a tyrannical government. Comparisons with Hitler's Germany or Stalin's USSR would be offensive if they were not so ridiculous.


----------



## Shero

Buckeye said:


> I stole this from a facebook friend.  The moral of the story is that the anti-vaxx folks will always insist that the grass is blue, no matter what facts are given to them.
> 
> The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue."
> The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."
> The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
> As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"
> The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue."
> The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."
> The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."
> The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..."
> The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"
> The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."
> The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?"
> The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"
> The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. _There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t. _
> *When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.*
> 
> Consequently I'm moving on.  And they anti-vaxx folks can continue to bray.
> 
> Have a great day!


Great Post  and like you, I am no longer interested in the rantings of the members of the unvaccinated pandemic.

Life is too short, and theirs may prove even shorter. I leave it to governments of the world to do their job and keep them away from me!
.


----------



## win231

Warrigal said:


> Win, you are being deliberately obtuse but I will answer your question in case you are being serious.
> 
> I was regularly skin tested for TB as a child and received the BCG serum to immunise me. At that time TB was making a comeback in Australia and my grandfather had it. TB has since disappeared in my country thanks to those public health measures.
> 
> Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide because of global efforts and mass immunisation in places where it was endemic. However, a small pox scar on the arm was commonly seen when I was young. It was a requirement for people who travelled overseas.
> 
> Meningitis vaccine? I was vaccinated for this in 2000 when we travelled in Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Kenya because it was not uncommon that people flying to Australia were carriers and then all of the other passengers were at risk. We decided that vaccination was a good idea, not just for ourselves but for family members, friends and neighbours and anyone else we might possibly infect. Going into quarantine was not an attractive proposition either.
> 
> Yellow fever? Is that a problem in US? It is not something we have to deal with in Australia. I was not advised to vaccinate for yellow fever when we travelled around the western states in 1985. However, if I were needing to travel to places where it was endemic I would certainly investigate any measures that would offer me some protection. When we visited Kenya were took precautions to avoid being bitten by mosquitoes carrying malaria but at that time there was no vaccine available. We used tropical strength insect repellent, wore long sleeves and took some tablets that the doctor prescribed. Our bed has a net strung to keep the insects out. Anything to lessen the risk. Looking back, these measures were very similar to using hand sanitiser, masks and maintaining social distancing against Covid. If I was travelling today I would consider vaccination against malaria and dengue fever if I to certain countries.
> 
> I drive a car. Every time I do this I take a greater risk of becoming maimed or worse in a traffic accident than I ever do by getting vaccinated. I choose to accept both risks because the benefits outweigh them by many orders of magnitude. Some people are too afraid to drive and others are too afraid to be vaccinated and they should not be ridiculed for their fear but I get angry when people deliberately spread fear with exaggerated stories of the risks involved. Death is not a small risk but the risk of death from diseases like TB, malaria, meningitis and Covid is much more than the risk of the vaccines.


You are assuming that I have spread fear, which is a gross misinterpretation.
Just saying I don't want a Covid vaccine is not spreading fear.
Saying I don't trust the safety of an experimental vaccine is not spreading fear; it's simply explaining why I don't want it.
Saying I think infection & mortality rates of Covid are exaggerated is not spreading fear.
"Spreading Fear" is _your _misinterpretation.

BTW, when are you getting _boosters _for all the above contagious diseases? (to show you care about others)


----------



## Murrmurr

Buckeye said:


> My condolences for the loss of your mother.  My mother is 98, fully vaxxed, and was able to get through a bout of Covid with no ill affects.
> 
> As of today, almost 414 million doses of vaccine has been administered in the US.  96.3% of us seniors have had at least one jab.  I'm sorry to hear of your friend's issues, but let's keep it in perspective.


Yes, I was talking about perspective. Death by covid among the vaccinated and severe reactions to the vaccine aren't just random events; there are causes. Age, comorbidity, and hitting a vein while administering the vaccine are 3 very common ones. And indeed, in relation to the numbers, these events are pretty rare.


----------



## Warrigal

win231 said:


> You are assuming that I have spread fear, which is a gross misinterpretation.
> Just saying I don't want a Covid vaccine is not spreading fear.
> Saying I don't trust the safety of an experimental vaccine is not spreading fear; it's simply explaining why I don't want it.
> Saying I think infection & mortality rates of Covid are exaggerated is not spreading fear.
> "Spreading Fear" is _your _misinterpretation.
> 
> BTW, when are you getting _boosters _for all the above contagious diseases? (to show you care about others)


I assume nothing about you personally but you cannot deny that certain media personalities are using alarmism about vaccines to gain attention. Expressing your opinion is no different to me expressing mine. Neither of us are experts in the field of pandemics or epidemics but both of us are old enough to have seen and experienced things over our lifetimes.

In my case, living in Australia, which has the wonderful advantage of being a large island, we are very fortunate to have avoided many of the infectious diseases that are common elsewhere. For example we have no rabies but we do have tetanus. Children are routinely immunised for tetanus and it is not the problem today that it was in the past when one of my grandmother's brothers, a farm worker, died of lockjaw at the age of 22. Today that doesn't happen because of a vaccine. I used to get regular boosters for tetanus but today I am hardly at risk any more. However, if I did suffer a deep puncture wound in the garden I would seek treatment and a tetanus shot.

I do have a 'flu shot before each Winter and a pneumonia shot every five years. I have had a booster shot for shingles because I did have chicken pox as a child (same virus  - herpes zoster). Shingles doesn't kill you but it is very painful and can cause damage to the nerves. My sister in law got it and it affected the sight in one eye. I requested the vaccine.

Before my little grandson was born I asked for a whooping cough booster to make sure I would not be a threat to him while he was too young to be immunised for this dreadful disease that can affect adults as well as babies. So yes, to answer your last sentence, sometimes I do get boosters for the sake of others but mostly the benefit is mine. When it comes to Covid the benefit is personal, to my family and on a larger plane, it benefits small businesses and the economy at large. Australia has now exceeded 80% double vaxxed for all people over 12 years and is rapidly approaching 90%. As a result, restrictions on businesses, entertainments and travel are being rolled back and by Christmas things will be pretty much back to normal without resulting in a surge of deaths and hospitalisations. For this I give credit to all the people who have complied with health orders and who have lined up for vaccines as soon as they became eligible. In particular, I am very grateful to the doctors, nurses, hospital administrators and public health officials who have had a very rough time of it for nearly two years. They are quite worn out. They do not deserve to be abused or threatened and they certainly do no deserve to have their motives questioned as if they are participating in a malignant conspiracy to harm us. What they ask of us is our co-operation and they will always have mine.

And no @win231, I am not referring to you personally in any of the above. I am just talking about what I have seen and what I think about vaccination.


----------



## Furryanimal

Here in the UK....two parts of the mainland -Scotland and Wales-still have mask use but more importantly the vaccine passport which you need to get into certain events.That scenario was the only reason I got vaccinated.I have mine and think I will need to use it soon.
But in England they are considering making the vaccine compulsory for NHS workers.Guessing that means
you won’t have a job if you refuse.
update...i have read this will not be the case in Wales but at this weeks review they may extend the use of vaccine passports.


----------



## Warrigal

Nothing new about that. My daughter is a registered nurse and she has always been required to have certain vaccinations as a condition of employment. Hepatitis is one of the mandatory ones and possibly golden staph (?) 

The child care workers at the church long day care centre are also required to be vaccinated against Covid to work with the children. It's an occupational health and safety measure.


----------



## win231

Warrigal said:


> I assume nothing about you personally but you cannot deny that certain media personalities are using alarmism about vaccines to gain attention. Expressing your opinion is no different to me expressing mine. Neither of us are experts in the field of pandemics or epidemics but both of us are old enough to have seen and experienced things over our lifetimes.
> 
> In my case, living in Australia, which has the wonderful advantage of being a large island, we are very fortunate to have avoided many of the infectious diseases that are common elsewhere. For example we have no rabies but we do have tetanus. Children are routinely immunised for tetanus and it is not the problem today that it was in the past when one of my grandmother's brothers, a farm worker, died of lockjaw at the age of 22. Today that doesn't happen because of a vaccine. I used to get regular boosters for tetanus but today I am hardly at risk any more. However, if I did suffer a deep puncture wound in the garden I would seek treatment and a tetanus shot.
> 
> I do have a 'flu shot before each Winter and a pneumonia shot every five years. I have had a booster shot for shingles because I did have chicken pox as a child (same virus  - herpes zoster). Shingles doesn't kill you but it is very painful and can cause damage to the nerves. My sister in law got it and it affected the sight in one eye. I requested the vaccine.
> 
> Before my little grandson was born I asked for a whooping cough booster to make sure I would not be a threat to him while he was too young to be immunised for this dreadful disease that can affect adults as well as babies. So yes, to answer your last sentence, sometimes I do get boosters for the sake of others but mostly the benefit is mine. When it comes to Covid the benefit is personal, to my family and on a larger plane, it benefits small businesses and the economy at large. Australia has now exceeded 80% double vaxxed for all people over 12 years and is rapidly approaching 90%. As a result, restrictions on businesses, entertainments and travel are being rolled back and by Christmas things will be pretty much back to normal without resulting in a surge of deaths and hospitalisations. For this I give credit to all the people who have complied with health orders and who have lined up for vaccines as soon as they became eligible. In particular, I am very grateful to the doctors, nurses, hospital administrators and public health officials who have had a very rough time of it for nearly two years. They are quite worn out. They do not deserve to be abused or threatened and they certainly do no deserve to have their motives questioned as if they are participating in a malignant conspiracy to harm us. What they ask of us is our co-operation and they will always have mine.
> 
> And no @win231, I am not referring to you personally in any of the above. I am just talking about what I have seen and what I think about vaccination.


_*"Certain media personalities"*_ have nothing whatsoever to do with me.
And in Post #119, in response to my post, you said:  _"I get angry when *people *deliberately spread fear with exaggerated stories of the risks involved"    _"People?"  Since you were responding to my post, you seemed to be referring to me.


----------



## Butterfly

Warrigal said:


> Win, you are being deliberately obtuse but I will answer your question in case you are being serious.
> 
> I was regularly skin tested for TB as a child and received the BCG serum to immunise me. At that time TB was making a comeback in Australia and my grandfather had it. TB has since disappeared in my country thanks to those public health measures.
> 
> Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide because of global efforts and mass immunisation in places where it was endemic. However, a small pox scar on the arm was commonly seen when I was young. It was a requirement for people who travelled overseas.
> 
> Meningitis vaccine? I was vaccinated for this in 2000 when we travelled in Egypt, Turkey, Greece and Kenya because it was not uncommon that people flying to Australia were carriers and then all of the other passengers were at risk. We decided that vaccination was a good idea, not just for ourselves but for family members, friends and neighbours and anyone else we might possibly infect. Going into quarantine was not an attractive proposition either.
> 
> Yellow fever? Is that a problem in US? It is not something we have to deal with in Australia. I was not advised to vaccinate for yellow fever when we travelled around the western states in 1985. However, if I were needing to travel to places where it was endemic I would certainly investigate any measures that would offer me some protection. When we visited Kenya were took precautions to avoid being bitten by mosquitoes carrying malaria but at that time there was no vaccine available. We used tropical strength insect repellent, wore long sleeves and took some tablets that the doctor prescribed. Our bed has a net strung to keep the insects out. Anything to lessen the risk. Looking back, these measures were very similar to using hand sanitiser, masks and maintaining social distancing against Covid. If I was travelling today I would consider vaccination against malaria and dengue fever if I to certain countries.
> 
> I drive a car. Every time I do this I take a greater risk of becoming maimed or worse in a traffic accident than I ever do by getting vaccinated. I choose to accept both risks because the benefits outweigh them by many orders of magnitude. Some people are too afraid to drive and others are too afraid to be vaccinated and they should not be ridiculed for their fear but I get angry when people deliberately spread fear with exaggerated stories of the risks involved. Death is not a small risk but the risk of death from diseases like TB, malaria, meningitis and Covid is much more than the risk of the vaccines.


Well said, Warri.  Like you, I've been vaccinated against all sorts of things, especially when  I was a military wife and we were transferred to assorted overseas places.  Of course my husband was vaccinated against more diseases than I was, because he was deployed at times to combat zones.  The only vaccine he ever had any trouble with was the one against bubonic and pneumonic plague; that one made him feel lousy for a couple of days, but that was all.

I am a firm believer in taking advantage of whatever protections are available against whatever diseases might threaten my health.  IMHO it is foolish not to do so.


----------



## chic

GeorgiaXplant said:


> @squatting dog Okay. I'll call you a conspiracy nut, but I sure as heck won't pat your back. You're a conspiracy nut. Feel better now?
> 
> And BTW @Packerjohn and @John cycling, my brother died of covid. Neither my brother nor my DSIL have been in the news.
> 
> My DSIL had covid and was lucky to get the monoclonal antibody infusion. He's recovered now and counting the days when he can get the vaccine. Once you've had the infusion, you can't get the vaccine for 90 days. Is he sorry he didn't get the vaccine? Ya, you betcha. Fortunately for the rest of us, we were all fully vaccinated when he got sick. He works with the public (masked), and when he got sick it finally registered with him that somebody else who wouldn't get vaccinated passed covid along to him. One of his employees? One of his customers? We'll never know. We are, and he is, glad he's alive.
> 
> It's as much about _*protecting others*_ as it is about protecting yourself. People who refuse the vaccine for various and sundry stupid reasons are selfish and unconcerned about not just their health but the health and welfare of everybody else.
> 
> Have you had smallpox? Polio? No? I rest my case.


Sorry about your brother and thank you for sharing this with the rest of us.

Small pox and polio were stable viruses so a vaccine would protect the inoculated from catching and transmitting the disease. This is obviously not the case with covid. Fully vaccinated people still catch, transmit, are hospitalized from, and die from this virus. So your "case", as you call it, is demolished. I don't recall ever hearing of breakthrough cases of polio or small pox. One shot and you were protected from the disease. If I am wrong about this please list the breakthrough cases of polio and smallpox for me.

The defense rests.


----------



## Warrigal

win231 said:


> _*"Certain media personalities"*_ have nothing whatsoever to do with me.
> And in Post #119, in response to my post, you said:  _"I get angry when *people *deliberately spread fear with exaggerated stories of the risks involved"    _"People?"  Since you were responding to my post, you seemed to be referring to me.


I assure you that I was not. If I wanted to refer to you personally I would have used the second person pronoun. I apologise for not being more specific.


----------



## garyt1957

win231 said:


> BTW, when are you getting _boosters _for all the above contagious diseases? (to show you care about others)


Do they recommend boosters for those diseases? Why would you get one?


----------



## garyt1957

John cycling said:


> Conversely, everyone that I know of who's been shot with the poisons has been sick, and many of them are already dead.


You know "many" people who have died from the vaccine? Yea right.


John cycling said:


> The basic truth is that *a covid19 virus has never been isolated.  *
> The statement on virus isolation, <--
> A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and the lack of virus isolation.


You keep posting this lie time and again, it's been refuted many times here already.


----------



## Aneeda72

garyt1957 said:


> Do they recommend boosters for those diseases? Why would you get one?


The new shingles vaccine, which was two painful shots, could be considered a booster for the first outdated shingle shot.  The new pneumonia shots could be considered a booster for the outdated pneumonia shot.  I got all the new shots as well.

I am fully boosted.


----------



## Packerjohn

Here in Canada they are now jabbing the young kiddies.  I remember 1.5 years ago when the authorities were telling us that all seniors are in danger and there is absolutely no danger to young healthy kids.  I guess they changed their minds?


----------



## Packerjohn

Now, I am trying to erase this duplicate posting but it wouldn't allow me!  Please ignore this posting.


----------



## Aneeda72

Packerjohn said:


> Here in Canada they are now jabbing the young kiddies.  I remember 1.5 years ago when the authorities were telling us that all seniors are in danger and there is absolutely no danger to young healthy kids.  I guess they changed their minds?


It’s because of Delta Covid, the young ones get it


----------



## Giants fan1954

ManjaroKDE said:


> My neighbor in AZ passed away from an embolism brought on by Covid before any vaccines were approved.  He was the one I bought my 5th Wheel from, he was a year older than I and looked in perfect health, later his wife said he had heart problems.


I know of 3 people that have it just within the last month.
2 are husband and wife, both vaccinated, he was given the monoclonal(?) antibodies in the hospital.
The other is in her early 30s, I don't know if she's vaccinated, she works with the developmentally disabled, don't know if that's a factor.
I got my Moderna booster yesterday, felt a little "off" earlier today.


----------



## chic

Murrmurr said:


> Yes, I was talking about perspective. Death by covid among the vaccinated and severe reactions to the vaccine aren't just random events; there are causes. Age, comorbidity, and hitting a vein while administering the vaccine are 3 very common ones. And indeed, in relation to the numbers, these events are pretty rare.


And what if you're one of those unlucky people who gets a vein hit and dies or worse?  

I don't think it's worth it.


garyt1957 said:


> You know "many" people who have died from the vaccine? Yea right.
> 
> You keep posting this lie time and again, it's been refuted many times here already.





Packerjohn said:


> Here in Canada they are now jabbing the young kiddies.  I remember 1.5 years ago when the authorities were telling us that all seniors are in danger and there is absolutely no danger to young healthy kids.  I guess they changed their minds?


They're going to do that in the U.S. also. Parents are fighting against it, but we'll see what happens. The FDA approved the vaccine for use in 5-11 year olds 17-0! They said, " We have to test it. You don't know how a vaccine works until you test it." Isn't that what clinical trials are supposed to be for? So they're going to inject children without knowing fully what will happen. Sounds dangerous. And you can call me stupid, I don't care.


----------



## Murrmurr

Packerjohn said:


> Here in Canada they are now jabbing the young kiddies.  I remember 1.5 years ago when the authorities were telling us that all seniors are in danger and there is absolutely no danger to young healthy kids.  I guess they changed their minds?


If the child has diabetes or some other comorbidity, then a parent should consider it, otherwise the benefit to kids getting the jab does not outweigh the risk.

The jab for kids 5 to 11 should absolutely not be mandated.

It's estimated that (in the US) at least 40% of children under 12 have had covid. Since many (if not the majority) were a-symptomatic, the figure could be as high as 55%-60%. They may be naturally immune or at least resistant. It would be a greater benefit to children to have their immunity levels tested than to give them a vaccine that is known to cause cardiac disease and with unknown impact on their health in the future.


----------



## Murrmurr

chic said:


> They're going to do that in the U.S. also. Parents are fighting against it, but we'll see what happens. The FDA approved the vaccine for use in 5-11 year olds 17-0! They said, " We have to test it. You don't know how a vaccine works until you test it." Isn't that what clinical trials are supposed to be for? So they're going to inject children without knowing fully what will happen. Sounds dangerous. And you can call me stupid, I don't care.


It's up to the CDC now to decide if children SHOULD get it. It would be extremely unwise for them to say every child _should_. But I think they will decide to make it available for children who need it; diabetics, children w/severe asthma, obese, etc.


----------



## Murrmurr

I saw a thing on TV a couple days ago that Pfiser wants to produce a veterinary covid vaccine and call for a mandate to vaccinate all pets.

I'm serious.

People are already vaccinating their horses and cows. Can you imagine the money Pfiser could make off beef cattle and race-horses?


----------



## Packerjohn

I remember the news 1.5 years ago.  They said that the immune system gets weaker and weaker as people age.  Therefore, seniors have a much weaken immune system.  They said the young kids have a very strong immune system and there is absolutely no reason to innoculate them.  So the wheel goes round and round.  You might say that there theory has evolved!


----------



## Murrmurr

Packerjohn said:


> I remember the news 1.5 years ago.  They said that the immune system gets weaker and weaker as people age.  Therefore, seniors have a much weaken immune system.  They said the young kids have a very strong immune system and there is absolutely no reason to innoculate them.  So the wheel goes round and round.  You might say that there theory has evolved!


If you "follow the science" rather than the money, nothing has changed. Kids still have a very robust immune system.

It's also known (to science) that vaccine protection wanes in the elderly more quickly than in younger people. That's why we're encouraged to get an annual flu shot.


----------



## JimBob1952

Packerjohn said:


> I remember the news 1.5 years ago.  They said that the immune system gets weaker and weaker as people age.  Therefore, seniors have a much weaken immune system.  They said the young kids have a very strong immune system and there is absolutely no reason to innoculate them.  So the wheel goes round and round.  You might say that there theory has evolved!




The theory hasn't evolved, but the disease has.  The Delta variant is much more likely to affect children.  

I really don't understand this "controversy."  Everybody goes to school, and all schools require polio and other vaccines.   Get vaccinated and stop being a yo-yo.


----------



## Murrmurr

Packerjohn said:


> I remember the news 1.5 years ago.  They said that the immune system gets weaker and weaker as people age.  Therefore, seniors have a much weaken immune system.  They said the young kids have a very strong immune system and there is absolutely no reason to innoculate them.  So the wheel goes round and round.  You might say that there theory has evolved!


While my little part-time foster son is a ward of the state, the state will decide if he gets a covid vaccine or not. That troubles me.


----------



## Packerjohn

Murrmurr said:


> I saw a thing on TV a couple days ago that Pfiser wants to produce a veterinary covid vaccine and call for a mandate to vaccinate all pets.
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> People are already vaccinating their horses and cows. Can you imagine the money Pfiser could make off beef cattle and race-horses?


I laughed when I read your posting, Murrmurr but maybe I should not laugh.  I was thinking a few days ago that the world has gone mad.  Now, you have given me proof!  A vaccine for dogs and cats and cows and horses.  If this continues they will be catching the squirrels in the parks, the rabbits in the bush and the gophers on the prairies.  I wish them luck with the moose and deer.  Perhaps shot a Pfiser from your rifle.  Anyway, if this madness continues Pfiser will be richer than Bill Gates and that Jeff Bozer of Amazon (Sorry for the spelling).  Oh, don't forget the elephants and tigers and those lovely puffins and penguins!


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> The theory hasn't evolved, but the disease has.  The Delta variant is much more likely to affect children.
> 
> I really don't understand this "controversy."  Everybody goes to school, and all schools require polio and other vaccines.   Get vaccinated and stop being a yo-yo.


Children are more likely to get symptomatic covid with the Delta variant, but it is no more likely to kill them than the original strain.


----------



## Murrmurr

Packerjohn said:


> I laughed when I read your posting, Murrmurr but maybe I should not laugh.  I was thinking a few days ago that the world has gone mad.  Now, you have given me proof!  A vaccine for dogs and cats and cows and horses.  If this continues they will be catching the squirrels in the parks, the rabbits in the bush and the gophers on the prairies.  I wish them luck with the moose and deer.  Perhaps shot a Pfiser from your rifle.  Anyway, if this madness continues Pfiser will be richer than Bill Gates and that Jeff Bozer of Amazon (Sorry for the spelling).  Oh, don't forget the elephants and tigers and those lovely puffins and penguins!


Oh yes, can't forget the zoo animals....and everything at Sea World.


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> The theory hasn't evolved, but the disease has.  The Delta variant is much more likely to affect children.
> 
> I really don't understand this "controversy."  Everybody goes to school, and all schools require polio and other vaccines.   Get vaccinated and stop being a yo-yo.


To better understand the controversy, I suggest you read articles or watch videos by actual doctors instead of news reporters and politicians.

I'm serious. There are some very good sources of trustworthy information available online.


----------



## David777

There has always been a manipulative vocal minority on both sides of the issue that has used the pandemic for political reasons and their targets tend to be a general audience of those unable to understand the science or its interpretation on their own so look to their leaders to guide them.  Note I've been a moderate for a long time disgusted with both political parties, prefer to avoid politics, have a science background able to read bio technical papers, and have received 3 Pfizer shots.

That noted, there are also significant numbers of those not wanting vaccinations that actually don't ever get any vaccinations because they are *needle phobic*. Many are not strongly so but rather have avoided ever getting flu shots much like many people avoid ever going to the dentist by simply immediately ignoring advice to do so, putting it out of their mind. Media has been generally afraid to bring up this subject because they do not want to publicly *embarrass* those that are and instead coerce them in other ways. Such people will use any other popular excuse they read about on the web to not be vaccinated instead of admitting the embarrassing truth.  The more they are pressured by the rest of us, the more they become stubbornly hardened into their position, especially given the name calling and shaming so many tend to use. 

That worked until as recent data has shown once vaccination became available earlier this year of 2021, a sharp difference arose between severe cases for those vaccinated versus those not, so they have tended to move away from older arguments like "_its not yet proven..._" towards arguments that forcing vaccinations is "_un-American against their freedoms..._"  Of course the media political manipulators are the loudest in moving their followers that way.  Another tactic is to encourage those unvaccinated who do come down with COVID-19 to make public claims they were vaccinated since that is the most damaging narrative to their cause and spouting so casually cannot be verified.

It is true that those vaccinated can indeed still catch the disease because many ordinary simple people don't understand one is still likely to become sick if they breathe in excessive amounts of the virus beyond what their improved immune systems can handle.  Thus being vaccinated is not a ticket to engage in many pre-pandemic social behaviors.   Close contact with a contagious person for hours in an enclosed environment is a recipe for getting sick just as such has been always been the case with airborne infectious diseases.

The majority of *needle phobic* are not seniors because we seniors were brought up during a Cold War and earlier era when all children received several vaccinations and no one protested but rather vaccines were proclaimed wonders of modern medicine. Instead most are from following generations with the recent decade's avoidance of measles vaccination where much of the current pandemic resistance started from especially with the advent of Internet social media that gave them power.


----------



## JimBob1952

Murrmurr said:


> To better understand the controversy, I suggest you read articles or watch videos by actual doctors instead of news reporters and politicians.
> 
> I'm serious. There are some very good sources of trustworthy information available online.



I don't have time to waste on this.  I got the shots, I'm getting the booster next week.  If I die I'll let you know.


----------



## win231

Packerjohn said:


> I remember the news 1.5 years ago.  They said that the immune system gets weaker and weaker as people age.  Therefore, seniors have a much weaken immune system.  They said the young kids have a very strong immune system and there is absolutely no reason to innoculate them.  So the wheel goes round and round.  You might say that there theory has evolved!


Follow the money; that's where theories evolve.  

A few weeks ago, I was watching HSN; they were advertising a Keurig Coffeemaker on sale.
Part of the pitch was:  _"The Keurig heats the water up to the ideal temperature for brewing coffee - 165 - 185 degrees."_
Uh.......that's a lie.  Coffee connoisseurs know that the ideal brewing temperature is 195 - 205 degrees.
Of course, they want to sell the product, so they change the information to match what they're selling.


----------



## Aneeda72

Murrmurr said:


> I saw a thing on TV a couple days ago that Pfiser wants to produce a veterinary covid vaccine and call for a mandate to vaccinate all pets.
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> People are already vaccinating their horses and cows. Can you imagine the money Pfiser could make off beef cattle and race-horses?


I vaccinate my dogs for the flu, so yes, I’d vaccinate my puppy for Covid.


----------



## JimBob1952

squatting dog said:


> Kind of surprised that you don't seem to remember the disaster "Cutter Incident" from their experimental polio vaccine, or the fact that polio vaccines were first tried in the 1930's and it wasn't until the 50's that the vaccine became commonplace. So, that vaccine took years, not months to perfect.



All in a time before high powered computing as well as understanding of the genome and RNA made rapid development and testing possible.  I'm sure Edward Jenner's smallpox inoculation took a while to perfect, as well.  

The vaccines are far from perfect, but they're pretty darn good, which is good enough for me.


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## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> I don't have time to waste on this.  I got the shots, I'm getting the booster next week.  If I die I'll let you know.


You're not likely to die before your time, JB. But when it IS your time, hearing from you will be very interesting to say the least!


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## JimBob1952

Murrmurr said:


> You're not likely to die before your time, JB. But when it IS your time, hearing from you will be very interesting to say the least!




Maybe I can figure out a way to leave an automated post-mortem post on SF?  Or ask my wife (who will live to be 110, I'm sure) to post it for me.


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## chic

Murrmurr said:


> I saw a thing on TV a couple days ago that Pfiser wants to produce a veterinary covid vaccine and call for a mandate to vaccinate all pets.
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> People are already vaccinating their horses and cows. Can you imagine the money Pfiser could make off beef cattle and race-horses?


Animals for human consumption too?


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I saw a thing on TV a couple days ago that Pfiser wants to produce a veterinary covid vaccine and call for a mandate to vaccinate all pets.
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> People are already vaccinating their horses and cows. Can you imagine the money Pfiser could make off beef cattle and race-horses?



Murmur:  have been around horses at all? Do you know anything about horses? Well I have.  Long before covid, horses have to be vaccinated against many diseases each year. Other animals in close association with humans have to also,
so, it is natural for these animals to be protected also against covid. Stop being such an alarmist, do some research please!
.


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> Murmur:  have been around horses at all? Do you know anything about horses? Well I have.  Long before covid, horses have to be vaccinated against many diseases each year. Other animals in close association with humans have to also,
> so, it is natural for these animals to be protected also against covid. Stop being such an alarmist, do some research please!
> .


I wasn't being an alarmist. Why do you insist on characterizing me as something I'm not?

I grew up on a farm with cows, horses, and pigs, and yeah, the local veterinarian came out seasonally and whenever new livestock arrived.


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I wasn't being an alarmist. Why do you insist on characterizing me as something I'm not?
> 
> I grew up on a farm with cows, horses, and pigs, and yeah, the local veterinarian came out seasonally and whenever new livestock arrived.


If you grew up on a farm, then you must know vaccinations are necessary, right?


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> If you grew up on a farm, then you must know vaccinations are necessary, right?


I didn't say they weren't.

I don't know what to tell you....maybe read my post again? I was taking a jab at Pfizer, not animals or veterinarians or horses in particular.


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## Shero

Murrmurr said:


> I didn't say they weren't.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you....maybe read my post again? I was taking a jab at Pfizer, not animals or veterinarians or horses in particular.


It's okay Murmur, do not want to argue with you. I think you are a nice guy though.


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## Butterfly

Aneeda72 said:


> I vaccinate my dogs for the flu, so yes, I’d vaccinate my puppy for Covid.


If my vet recommended it, I would, too -- same as any other recommended dog vaccination.


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## Murrmurr

Shero said:


> It's okay Murmur, do not want to argue with you.


Let me know if you change your mind.


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## Chris P Bacon

*Here's why disease outbreaks create perfect conditions for the rise of conspiracy theories*

A short but interesting read


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## dseag2

Chris P Bacon said:


> *Here's why disease outbreaks create perfect conditions for the rise of conspiracy theories*
> 
> A short but interesting read


Great post!


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## chic

It's only a conspiracy until you see it actually happening all around you.


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## oldiebutgoody

Delusional conspiracy believer dies of covid:



Washington state Sen. Doug Ericksen dies after battle with COVID​

State Sen. Doug Ericksen, a stalwart conservative voice in the Legislature, former leader of Donald Trump's campaign in Washington and an outspoken critic of COVID-19 emergency orders, has died, his family said Saturday. He was 52.

Ericksen said last month that he had tested positive for the coronavirus while on a trip to El Salvador, although his cause of death was not immediately confirmed this weekend.



https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...n-doug-ericksen-dies-after-battle-with-covid/


It's a good bet he and his pals don't believe covid is just a hoax anymore.


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## fmdog44

Like the flu this virus will never go away so get used to it.


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## Aunt Bea

fmdog44 said:


> Like the flu this virus will never go away so get used to it.


I agree.

We need to accept and use all of the resources at our disposal to live our best lives and minimize the impact of the virus.


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## win231

oldiebutgoody said:


> Delusional conspiracy believer dies of covid:
> 
> 
> 
> Washington state Sen. Doug Ericksen dies after battle with COVID​
> 
> State Sen. Doug Ericksen, a stalwart conservative voice in the Legislature, former leader of Donald Trump's campaign in Washington and an outspoken critic of COVID-19 emergency orders, has died, his family said Saturday. He was 52.
> 
> Ericksen said last month that he had tested positive for the coronavirus while on a trip to El Salvador, although his cause of death was not immediately confirmed this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...n-doug-ericksen-dies-after-battle-with-covid/
> 
> 
> It's a good bet he and his pals don't believe covid is just a hoax anymore.


You are mistaken.  I read an article about it this morning.  It said _"It is unclear whether he was vaccinated."_  If he was not vaccinated, the media would have jumped on it, since the whole idea is to sell vaccines.  When they say "It is unclear," it usually means he _*was*_ vaccinated; they don't want to hurt sales by having people think the vaccine is useless.  Besides, most of us know the vaccine is required for foreign travel.
My apologies for disappointing the "Blame Gamers" on this forum.


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## suds00

MrPants said:


> Everyone wants to make their own choice on this issue because there's no clear and absolute right choice that fits everyone. Along with that freedom of choice comes the consequences of making your choice.
> 
> Those who choose to be vaccinated may suffer horrible reactions to the vaccine immediately or at some point in the future. They made their choice so don't complain if things go off the rails.
> 
> Those who choose to be unvaccinated may suffer the consequences of limited freedom of movement in pubic and/or employment opportunities. They made their choice so don't complain if that's the way things go.
> 
> The only difference is, those that are unvaccinated can still change their mind. Not so much with those who are already vaccinated.


you'll have to live [or not] with your decision. the difference is those vaccinated have scientific support ;that has been peer-reviewed, showing the efficacy of the vaccine comes from  the fda and a host of medical institutions[virtually all] that do not consider the vaccines to be a bad thing. sure something could happen to the millions who have gotten the vaccine but it's more likely something bad could happen to those who don't and probably won't. the pandemic is occurring right now and the vaccines offer the best protection that we currently have.


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## suds00

Becky1951 said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to understand. If this and other discussions are getting old, why follow them and reply? Wouldn't it be easier to ignore them?


that advice goes both ways. please don't take offense but somehow the argument and thinly veiled name calling has to end. a truce would be nice. everyone has already made up their own mind.


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## Becky1951

suds00 said:


> that advice goes both ways. please don't take offense but somehow the argument and thinly veiled name calling has to end. a truce would be nice. everyone has already made up their own mind.


Please take the time to check who is doing all the name calling. I have never called anyone stupid, idiot, uneducated, non caring, unpatriotic, just to name a few.


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## Sunny

To get back to the original title of this thread, I wouldn't dream of patting your back, Squatting Dog. It's probably a minefield.

Becky, are you personally being blamed for name calling?  If not, why all the defensiveness?


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## win231

suds00 said:


> that advice goes both ways. please don't take offense but somehow the argument and thinly veiled name calling has to end. a truce would be nice. everyone has already made up their own mind.


You would be wise to ask yourself who starts the name calling.


----------



## oldiebutgoody

win231 said:


> You are mistaken.  I read an article about it this morning.  It said _"It is unclear whether he was vaccinated."_  If he was not vaccinated, the media would have jumped on it, since the whole idea is to sell vaccines.  When they say "It is unclear," it usually means he _*was*_ vaccinated; they don't want to hurt sales by having people think the vaccine is useless.  Besides, most of us know the vaccine is required for foreign travel.
> My apologies for disappointing the "Blame Gamers" on this forum.




While the vax is advisable it is not the only means of preventing contagion.  I have seen many Eriksen photos and he almost never appeared in public with a mask on. Take the vax, wear a mask, wash your hands, and keep a reasonable social distancing.  That will help keep cynics like him alive.


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## suds00

i haven't either .but some have.


----------



## suds00

Becky1951 said:


> Please take the time to check who is doing all the name calling. I have never called anyone stupid, idiot, uneducated, non caring, unpatriotic, just to name a few.


i haven't either but some have.


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> To get back to the original title of this thread, I wouldn't dream of patting your back, Squatting Dog. It's probably a minefield.
> 
> Becky, are you personally being blamed for name calling?  If not, why all the defensiveness?


Considering I was replying to this that was commented *to me, *it certainly sounded like it. "that advice goes both ways. please don't take offense but somehow the argument and thinly veiled *name calling* has to end. a truce would be nice. everyone has already made up their own mind."


----------



## dseag2

No worries.  We are thinning out the species and creating herd immunity as more Covid deniers and anti-vaxxers get the disease.


----------



## Devi

dseag2 said:


> No worries.  We are thinning out the species and creating herd immunity as more Covid deniers and anti-vaxxers get the disease.



My husband and I have natural immunity because we _had_ Covid.

But it's illuminating to learn from you that you're happy to rid the planet of anyone who doesn't take the vaccines. Wow. How heartwarming and gracious of you. As I said, illuminating.

You do know, do you not, that the vaccines don't prevent _you_ from getting Covid, or spreading it?

This is too ugly for me. Time to ignore.


----------

