# Covid - We blew it



## Sunny

There is nothing to argue about; we have passed the point of no return, it seems.




*'We blew it': U.S. reaches 'explosive' COVID-19 spread as virus is nearly impossible to control, experts say*



Abby Haglage
Fri, November 13, 2020, 4:09 PM EST


With COVID-19 cases increasing in 46 states, 10 of which broke single-day records for new cases on Thursday, America has officially entered what experts refer to as the “exponential” phase of spread — a rapid multiplying of cases that can’t be contained through traditional measures. On Thursday alone, the U.S. saw 160,000 new cases of the virus, more than any day since the pandemic began.
In California, the second state to surpass 1 million cases, thousands of people in cars lined up at Dodger Stadium on Thursday to get tested; in parts of Washington state, individuals waited four to five hours.
*Related: Restrictions grow as pandemic rages in the U.S.*

The current spike in cases — which some states are calling a third wave — has brought more than 100,000 new cases a day since Nov. 4. But that’s not counting those that may be going undetected. “We have widespread, uncontrolled COVID-19 in many parts of the country,” says Dr. Amesh Adalja, senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security. “And we know the cases reported are an underestimate of what is out there ... we’re missing many cases because people aren’t getting tested. So the true number is much higher than what we’re actually seeing.”


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## gennie

For the past 7 days, Florida has averaged 5,400+ new cases daily.  I'd say we've blown it.


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## Aunt Marg

I can't say I'm at all surprised.


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## AnnieA

So sad.   Europe too.    It's heartbreaking to see deaths spiking in Italy after all they went through in the spring.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/11/13...-here-s-what-s-happening-across-the-continent

.


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## ManjaroKDE

Report from one of my former 'snowbird' neighbors, in SW AZ the Canadians are not coming this winter.  With national health care the Canadian government has told them that they will not have health care coverage if they travel to the US.  Their benefits are invalid at the border, good luck with the costly healthcare options if available.


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## Aunt Marg

ManjaroKDE said:


> Report from one of my former 'snowbird' neighbors, in SW AZ the Canadians are not coming this winter.  With national health care the Canadian government has told them that they will not have health care coverage if they travel to the US.  Their benefits are invalid at the border, good luck with the costly healthcare options if available down there.


Canada has locked it's borders to all unessential travel (USofA) coming in or out.


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## AnnieA

ManjaroKDE said:


> Report from one of my former 'snowbird' neighbors, in SW AZ the Canadians are not coming this winter.  With national health care the Canadian government has told them that they will not have health care coverage if they travel to the US.  Their benefits are invalid at the border, good luck with the costly healthcare options if available.






Aunt Marg said:


> Canada has locked it's borders to all unessential travel (USofA) coming in or out.



Wise moves.


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## Aunt Marg

AnnieA said:


> Wise moves.


Annie. I wish more countries were doing it.


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## Jules

Our national medical coverage doesn’t apply out-of-country at any time.  Some private companies are offering coverage, cost unknown, and lots of fine print.  

We can fly into the US.  Most are choosing not to anyway.  Upon return, you must quarantine for 14 days.  Short term southern destinations are really hurting.  No one goes to Vegas or Disneyland for 4 days to return home to quarantine for 14.


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## AnnieA

Aunt Marg said:


> Annie. I wish more countries were doing it.



It's weird that border control hasn't given consistent results.  Israel, New Zealand and Singapore have been aggressive with border crossings from the first and Israel's deaths per 100,000 are at 296 yet NZ and Singapore's are at 5 per 100,000.  Vastly different results.  The only thing I can think of is that Israel's population is much more diverse and it may be that the impact of religious beliefs such as in the Hasidic Jewish denomination are skewing Israel's mortality rate in the wrong direction.  I picked those three because their numbers are likely fairly trustworthy and they're small nations which allows for better control.  Obviously New Zealand and Singapore being islands helps with border control.


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## Aunt Marg

AnnieA said:


> It's weird that border control hasn't given consistent results.  Israel, New Zealand and Singapore have been aggressive with border crossings from the first and Israel's deaths per 100,000 are at 296 yet NZ and Singapore's are at 5 per 100,000.  Vastly different results.  The only thing I can think of is that Israel's population is much more diverse and it may be that the impact of religious beliefs such as in the Hasidic Jewish denomination are skewing Israel's mortality rate in the wrong direction.  I picked those three because their numbers are likely fairly trustworthy and they're small nations which allows for better control.  Obviously New Zealand and Singapore being islands helps with border control.


I, too, have given thought to skewed stats, etc, Annie.

One thing that I do believe, is European countries that are enjoying lower rates are more in tune with respecting guidelines more so than the west, but all in all I'm left scratching my head from day to day as more and more reports sift in as to out of control numbers.


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## Tish

Aunt Marg said:


> Canada has locked it's borders to all unessential travel (USofA) coming in or out.


Same here in Australia.


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## Aunt Marg

Tish said:


> Same here in Australia.


Just like Wilford Brimley, used to say... "_it's the right thing to do_".


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## AnnieA

Aunt Marg said:


> I, too, have given thought to skewed stats, etc, Annie.
> 
> One thing that I do believe, is European countries that are enjoying lower rates are more in tune with respecting guidelines more so than the west, but all in all I'm left scratching my head from day to day as more and more reports sift in as to out of control numbers.



Scandinavian countries, with the exception of Sweden, are faring much better than the UK, US and several European nations.


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## Marie5656

*True. I was watching the Monroe County Executive do a press conference the other day. That is the county where I lived before moving here. He was having the press call in questions.  Now our Governor has limited private gatherings to less than 10, and bars and restaurants to limit patrons.
Anyway, a reporter called in to report he saw an ad from a Rochester area restaurant that was offering a 25% discount for Christmas parties of 25 or more people.*


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## Aunt Marg

AnnieA said:


> Scandinavian countries, with the exception of Sweden, are faring much better than the UK, US and several European nations.


It definitely opens up the idea that there's some learning to do from such countries, doesn't it, Annie?


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## StarSong

AnnieA said:


> *It's weird that border control hasn't given consistent results.*  Israel, New Zealand and Singapore have been aggressive with border crossings from the first and Israel's deaths per 100,000 are at 296 yet NZ and Singapore's are at 5 per 100,000.  Vastly different results.  The only thing I can think of is that Israel's population is much more diverse and it may be that the impact of religious beliefs such as in the Hasidic Jewish denomination are skewing Israel's mortality rate in the wrong direction.  I picked those three because their numbers are likely fairly trustworthy and they're small nations which allows for better control.  Obviously New Zealand and Singapore being islands helps with border control.


Closing borders only works for countries that have already controlled the virus WITHIN their countries, have rigorous contact tracing, sufficient testing, strong leadership, and a committed population. 

Singapore, NZ and Australia did all of these things from the get-go.


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## Lakeland living

Today a new record for Ontario Canada, 1581 new cases, with 20 dead. 
 New reports expecting to climb quickly to about 6000 by mid December.


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## asp3

AnnieA said:


> It's weird that border control hasn't given consistent results.  Israel, New Zealand and Singapore have been aggressive with border crossings from the first and Israel's deaths per 100,000 are at 296 yet NZ and Singapore's are at 5 per 100,000.  Vastly different results.  The only thing I can think of is that Israel's population is much more diverse and it may be that the impact of religious beliefs such as in the Hasidic Jewish denomination are skewing Israel's mortality rate in the wrong direction.  I picked those three because their numbers are likely fairly trustworthy and they're small nations which allows for better control.  Obviously New Zealand and Singapore being islands helps with border control.



One thing I think might be part of the difference is that many Asian countries already had a culture that included mask wearing when sick.  So I think one of the reasons that Asian countries have tended to better than non-Asian countries is that they already had some of the culture in place needed to battle the virus more effectively.  However I have no concrete evidence to back up my opinion, so I'm pretty much just presenting conjecture.


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## Sunny

Not only when they're sick, asp3. I've seen lots of pictures of crowded Asian cities with nearly everyone in the streets wearing masks. One reason may be their poor air quality. But you make an interesting point: for whatever reason, they are apparently resisting the idea of wearing a mask a lot less than we do. They are probably accepting it as more normal.


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## Pinky

We have a large Asian community in my city. Mask wearing is common here, especially in the colder months, and especially in the clinic waiting rooms at any time of year.


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## StarSong

This terrible scenario is playing out exactly as we were warned unless we changed our behavior.  Dr. Fauci and the vast majority of medical personnel, epidemiologists, virologists, and related professionals couldn't have been clearer a few months ago.  

@Pinky, Los Angeles likewise has a large Asian community and masks have been common sight for many years here, too. They also often (quite wisely) wear loose, lightweight long sleeved shirts, long pants and head coverings, no matter how warm the day is, to protect their skin from the sun.

I salute other cultures' non-politicization of health precautions.


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## gennie

The key to controlling this is not in government regulations.  It's in everyone taking personal responsibility for their own safety and that of their neighbor.

Learn the *facts* about your own village/community/town - the space you move about in. Determine your own susceptibility and level of comfort. 

Then use common sense and do the right thing.


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## asp3

gennie said:


> The key to controlling this is not in government regulations.  It's in everyone taking personal responsibility for their own safety and that of their neighbor.
> 
> Learn the *facts* about your own village/community/town - the space you move about in. Determine your own susceptibility and level of comfort.
> 
> Then use common sense and do the right thing.



I've got to disagree here, the areas where the government has stepped in and regulated behavior have done the best once the first wave was completed.  I'm afraid that people are not responsible and do not really consider how their actions potentially impact others.

I'm of the opinion that if we had started with very restrictive regulations, built up robust contact tracing, developed quick, effective testing, strict quarantine for those who travel from region to region and made it easier for infected people to quarantine themselves without infecting their families we'd be in the same place as Taiwan is.  They're basically open for business as usual and didn't have any local transmission (all their cases came in from outside of an area) for over 200 days.


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## Camper6

ManjaroKDE said:


> Report from one of my former 'snowbird' neighbors, in SW AZ the Canadians are not coming this winter.  With national health care the Canadian government has told them that they will not have health care coverage if they travel to the US.  Their benefits are invalid at the border, good luck with the costly healthcare options if available.


Oh the Canadians are still going. My niece and husband have a home in Arizona. 

They can't drive but can fly.   They need to self isolate when they get there and self isolate when they get back and must wear masks on the plane.

But it's worth it because the winters here are brutal.  They really enjoy themselves in Arizona.  Tennis everyday and golf and gardening  add years off your life.

When Canadians go to the U.S. the national health care doesn't cover them in the U.S.

They have to buy a separate insurance package like they have in the U.S.

And it's the same old story.  You can get it, but previous conditions are not covered.

I asked the insurance agent, what is not covered for previous conditions.  He said whatever pills you are taking and they can get information from your doctor.


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## Camper6

Tish said:


> Same here in Australia.


For driving.  But transports still cross.

You can fly but you can't drive your car in.


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## gennie

asp3, that was then (Feb/Mar) and this is now.  A totally different world. 

 I agree, early containment and distribution of accurate information would have probably meant a much different 'now'.  But who knows.

Regulations are only as effective as the policing.  Who is stopping the blatant disregard of them.


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## asp3

gennie said:


> asp3, that was then (Feb/Mar) and this is now.  A totally different world.
> 
> I agree, early containment and distribution of accurate information would have probably meant a much different 'now'.  But who knows.
> 
> Regulations are only as effective as the policing.  Who is stopping the blatant disregard of them.



I agree that it's a totally different world, but Taiwan has been able to navigate it successfully.  We could to if we could just get people to follow some strict guidelines for 1 to 2 months.  It will be painful, but which is more painful one strict, effective lock down or prolonged months of partial restrictions with many deaths and much longer disruption?

We already know that people will not self regulate.

The who knows are the people of Taiwan and other Asian countries who have had much more success in containing and restricting the spread of the virus and who have economies which have been much less disrupted than our own.  So I think we do have excellent examples of what early containment and distribution of accurate information accomplishes.


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## Granny B.

I totally agree with you, asp3. If we would have had a nation-wide shutdown when this first started, with all the tracing, testing, and quarantining you mention, we would be in a much better situation now.  What a mess!

Here's our local situation (and many schools are still open, including the one where I work):


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## AnnieA

asp3 said:


> I'm of the opinion that if we had started with very restrictive regulations, built up robust contact tracing, developed quick, effective testing, strict quarantine for those who travel from region to region and made it easier for infected people to quarantine themselves without infecting their families we'd be in the same place as Taiwan is.  They're basically open for business as usual and didn't have any local transmission (all their cases came in from outside of an area) for over 200 days.




You're right, but the US early response was flubbed on so many levels.

Early response timeline with hyperlinks:

*21 Jan 2020*  CDC confirmed the first case of coronavirus in the United States.

*14 Feb 2020 * CDC Testing Announcement: THE CDC HAS BEGUN WORKING WITH FIVE PUBLIC HEALTH LABS TO CONDUCT COMMUNITY BASED INFLUENZA BASED SURVEILLANCE SO WE CAN TEST THOSE WITH FLU LIKE SYMPTOMS FOR NOVEL CORONAVIRUS. THOSE PUBLIC HEALTH LABS ARE IN LOS ANGELES, SAN FRANCISCO, SEATTLE, CHICAGO AND NEW YORK CITY

*17 Feb 2020 * Top disease official [FAUCI]: Risk of coronavirus in USA is 'minuscule'; skip mask and wash hands

though Reuters had reported on *6 Feb 2020* that    Nearly 230 cases have been reported in 27 other countries and regions outside mainland China, according to a Reuters tally based on official statements.

Dr.  Fauci surely knew the 6 Feb world count when he made the 17 Feb comments.  How he thought the US was somehow not at risk given modern international travel, I do not understand.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will be testing for the coronavirus in people in five major cities who show up at clinics with flu-like symptoms but who test negative for the seasonal varieties.​​If that testing shows the virus has slipped into the country in places federal officials don't know about, "we've got a problem," Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told USA TODAY's Editorial Board Monday.​​Short of that, Fauci says skip the masks unless you are contagious, don't worry about catching anything from Chinese products and certainly don't avoid Chinese people or restaurants.​​"Whenever you have the threat of a transmissible infection, there are varying degrees from understandable to outlandish extrapolations of fear," Fauci said.​​* 28 Feb 2020* The United States badly bungled coronavirus testing—but things may soon improve

The World Health Organization (WHO) has shipped testing kits to 57 countries. China had five commercial tests on the market 1 month ago and can now do up to 1.6 million tests a week; South Korea has tested 65,000 people so far. The U. S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), in contrast, has done only 459 tests since the epidemic began. The rollout of a CDC-designed test kit to state and local labs has become a fiasco because it contained a faulty reagent. Labs around the country eager to test more suspected cases—and test them faster—have been unable to do so. No commercial or state labs have the approval to use their own tests.​​Then there are the gawdawful federal 'leadership' 'hoaxes'/fiascos that I can't go into here.

From the very beginning, US response has been abysmal.

.


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## Lakeland living

gennie said:


> The key to controlling this is not in government regulations.  It's in everyone taking personal responsibility for their own safety and that of their neighbor.
> 
> Learn the *facts* about your own village/community/town - the space you move about in. Determine your own susceptibility and level of comfort.
> 
> Then use common sense and do the right thing.


Could not have said it better myself. It is exactly as we are living these days.


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## fmdog44

Yesterday I saw a news piece where four young people maybe in their mid 20's were sitting outside and one of them said he thought the whole thing is a hoax. Hard to believe anyone is that stupid but then when you look at how obesity is also rampaging stupid is now the norm.


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## garyt1957

ManjaroKDE said:


> Report from one of my former 'snowbird' neighbors, in SW AZ the Canadians are not coming this winter.  With national health care the Canadian government has told them that they will not have health care coverage if they travel to the US.  Their benefits are invalid at the border, good luck with the costly healthcare options if available.


Canadians aren't coming because the borders are closed, pure and simple.


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## garyt1957

Jules said:


> No one goes to Vegas or Disneyland for 4 days to return home to quarantine for 14.


Anybody going to Vegas or Disneyworld right now is an idiot.


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## Sassycakes

gennie said:


> The key to controlling this is not in government regulations.  It's in everyone taking personal responsibility for their own safety and that of their neighbor.
> 
> Learn the *facts* about your own village/community/town - the space you move about in. Determine your own susceptibility and level of comfort.
> 
> Then use common sense and do the right thing.



*You are so correct gennie, the people are responsible
for their safety and the safety of others. My granddaughter caught the covid last week because she was invited to an outdoor birthday party for a school friend Only 5 children were supposed to be there. My granddaughter even had her mask on. One of the children that was also there had been exposed to a friend who had the covid yet her Mom made her attend the party anyway. My daughter found out that 2 of the other kids at the party also have the covid now. My daughter had stayed at the party to help the Mom so my daughter is getting tested tomorrow.*


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## garyt1957

The teenage daughter of my wife's friend from work tested positive. My wife's friend got tested but her test came back as tainted, so no result , she got tested again but hasn't gotten results yet. She had symptoms, telling my wife she felt like someone was sitting on her chest. So wasn't my wife surprised to see a FB post from her at a bar taking a cheek to cheek selfie with a friend with no masks!  That is why we'll never beat this thing without a vaccine, because people are stupid.


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## Jules

garyt1957 said:


> because people are stupid


You’re being polite with that description.


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## Jules

garyt1957 said:


> Anybody going to *Vegas* or Disneyworld right now is an idiot.


I agree. They’re flooding in every weekend from Southern CA.


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## DaveA

StarSong said:


> Closing borders only works for countries that have already controlled the virus WITHIN their countries, have rigorous contact tracing, sufficient testing, strong leadership, and a committed population.
> 
> Singapore, NZ and Australia did all of these things from the get-go.


And we have had or have none of the above.  No wonder we've been behind the "eight-ball' from day one.  Canada is closing the door on us and it's surprising that Mexico hasn't done the same.  

Hopefully, a proven, working vaccine will come along sooner rather than later and save us from this slide into oblivion.


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## asp3

AnnieA said:


> You're right, but the US early response was flubbed on so many levels.



I agree completely.  Without trying to be political the correct response was inconvenient for those in power.


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## StarSong

garyt1957 said:


> Anybody going to Vegas or Disneyworld right now is an idiot.





Jules said:


> I agree. They’re flooding in every weekend from Southern CA.


California's Disneyland has been closed since mid-March and is unlikely to be cleared for reopening anytime soon (much to Disney's dismay).

Las Vegas is in Nevada, not Southern CA.
Just keepin' it real.


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## garyt1957

StarSong said:


> California's Disneyland has been closed since mid-March and is unlikely to be cleared for reopening anytime soon (much to Disney's dismay).
> 
> Las Vegas is in Nevada, not Southern CA.
> Just keepin' it real.


Just to keep it really real, Jules didn't say LV was in Southern California, she said people from Southern Cal are flocking into Vegas.


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## StarSong

garyt1957 said:


> Just to keep it really real, Jules didn't say LV was in Southern California, she said people from Southern Cal are flocking into Vegas.


Thanks for the clarification.  I completely misinterpreted his/her statement to mean that they were flooding into Canada after visits to DL & LV.  

Not sure who's going to Las Vegas these days but would agree that it sure isn't a smart move.


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## Sunny

Las Vegas exists in its own universe, at least the tourist part of it does. It's kind of a denial of reality. 

I once read that gambling casinos never have clocks on the wall, because clocks serve as a reminder that maybe it's time to leave. They want their patrons to forget that there is an outside world, that adults are supposed to behave responsibly, etc.

So why wouldn't it be a hotbed of this disease?


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## StarSong

Sunny said:


> Las Vegas exists in its own universe, at least the tourist part of it does. It's kind of a denial of reality.
> 
> I once read that gambling casinos never have clocks on the wall, because clocks serve as a reminder that maybe it's time to leave. They want their patrons to forget that there is an outside world, that adults are supposed to behave responsibly, etc.
> 
> So why wouldn't it be a hotbed of this disease?


That's true about clocks.  Casino lighting and temperature remain the same, 24/7/365.  Alcohol is served around the clock.  Ditto breakfast, lunch and dinner foods.  

The big casinos have constructed huge fantasy worlds within that contains hotel rooms, restaurants, all kinds of entertainment, shops, shows, babysitters on call, some contain movie theaters and bowling alleys, and so much more. They don't want you to leave - or to take your money elsewhere.


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## CarolfromTX

And so please tell me what nation handled this better? And how, exactly? Island nations excepted.


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## Aunt Marg

CarolfromTX said:


> And so please tell me what nation handled this better? And how, exactly? Island nations excepted.


Canada for one, and here's just one of _many_ examples.


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## asp3

CarolfromTX said:


> And so please tell me what nation handled this better? And how, exactly? Island nations excepted.



Thailand has done much better than we have.  Here is an article on how they did it.  https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/08/1069191

For European countries both Norway and Finland at 54.23 and 66.6 deaths per million people have done better than we did.  In between them both Sweden which didn't do much initially is at 610.34 deaths per million.  We're at 743.83 deaths per million.

I got the numbers for the above at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data .  It looks like it's updated daily so the numbers you see might be different.


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## Sunny

CarolfromTX said:


> And so please tell me what nation handled this better? And how, exactly? Island nations excepted.


All of them, Carol.


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## garyt1957

Sunny said:


> All of them, Carol.


Simply not true.


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## tbeltrans

I think it is a bit late for finger pointing, but I do hope that we collectively learn from this go-round and are better prepared for the next one.  I suppose that reviewing what happened and went wrong can be a good thing if it helps us understand how to improve our response to the next virus pandemic.  In engineering, we typically would hold what we called a "post mortem" at the end of a project to determine how well we handled situations that came up and what we could do to handle it better and more efficiently the next time.  These were not finger pointing sessions, but instead constructive means of learning from our mistakes.

The VA called me today to follow up on some things.  They said that I should not come in because they have so many COVID-19 patients, but rather they have their own zoom type application and I can visit with a doctor using it.  The person I talked to said that our VA has 9 beds set aside for civilians because of the sheer number of COVID-19 patients the civilian hospitals around our area are having to handle.  He said that all 9 beds are full, and that this COVID-19 situation is far more serious than many people seem to understand.

Tony


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## garyt1957

Personally, I'm not sure that death per million is a legitimate way of deciding how the virus has been handled. We have no idea how other countries are determining a death a covid death. Heck we don't know how the US is determining a covid death. And frankly, comparing the US to island nations or even Asian nations doesn't make much sense. Andorra (where in H is Andorra?) is way worse than we are. Who cares?  I'm not even sure comparing us to South American countries is fair. Argentina. Peru, Chile, Brazil are all worse than the US and Ecuador is basically the the same. Again, so what?
   I'd be most likely inclined to compare the US to European nations where the lifestyle and healthcare are more similar. UK, Belgium, and Spain are worse than the US and France is just marginally better. Germany is way better. 
   There are too many other factors like culture, climate, and even the strain of virus etc that effect the numbers to really say who's "doing better".


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## asp3

garyt1957 said:


> Simply not true.



Agreed, but "most countries have done better than we have" would be an accurate statement.

It's also difficult to assess how well or poorly countries have done because they each had their own initial exposure date.  Also we have to take into account the medical infrastructure in each country.  Is it fair to say a country did better than another simply because it has enough medical resources to prevent people from dying?  

However if we just go by deaths per million based on the info at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data the following countries have done worse than we have.  In a list of 200 countries we are the 13th worst country

Belgium - 1248.01
San Marino - 1237.55
Peru - 1069.73
Andorra - 983.63
Spain - 882.23
Argentina - 790.09
Brazil - 781.02
Chile - 777.51
U.K. - 768.16
Mexico - 766.76
Bolivia - 758.07
Italy - 756.39

USA - 746.86


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## Sunny

Gary, we are leading in the number of deaths. Doesn't that tell you something?  There is absolutely no justification or excuse for that.


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## Liberty

How about using this great German ad to help:

https://watch.thewest.com.au/show/387185


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## garyt1957

Sunny said:


> Gary, we are leading in the number of deaths. Doesn't that tell you something?  There is absolutely no justification or excuse for that.


Because we have a huge population. As Joe would say "C'mon Man!" That means nothing. At the very least you have to go by per capita deaths. Your going to compare the number of deaths in the US with 330million people to Canada with 30 million people? And yes I know Canada is better in per capita also. The US could have one tenth the death rate we currently have now, which would be amongst the lowest in the world and we would still have more total deaths than Canada.


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## garyt1957

asp3 said:


> It's also difficult to assess how well or poorly countries have done because they each had their own initial exposure date.  Also we have to take into account the medical infrastructure in each country.  Is it fair to say a country did better than another simply because it has enough medical resources to prevent people from dying?


Which is basically what I said in the post above yours.


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## asp3

garyt1957 said:


> Which is basically what I said in the post above yours.



I agree, I was typing in my post while you posted yours so I didn't see it until after I had finished mine.


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## garyt1957

asp3 said:


> I agree, I was typing in my post while you posted yours so I didn't see it until after I had finished mine.


Just too many variables to really determine who's doing better in controlling the virus. California supposedly got the less lethal strain from China while NY got the more deadly strain from Italy. CA had less deaths but did they really do a better job or did they get lucky? Were there even two different strains or was that conjecture? Who knows? I tend to agree that our individualism has hurt us in regards to fighting this thing. I'm not into the blame game, I want to know how we best proceed going forward.


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## AnnieA

Sunny said:


> Gary, we are leading in the number of deaths. Doesn't that tell you something?  There is absolutely no justification or excuse for that.



Did you see asp3's post 53?   It's deaths* per % population* that you use when comparing rates between nations of vastly different numbers of citizens.


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## Don M.

About the ONLY information we get with regard to this pandemic is the Sheer Numbers.  I would like to see a breakdown of Just Who is more likely to contract this illness.  There is strong evidence that Seniors living in crowded care facilities are at greater risk, but WHAT about the rest of the populations?  
What is the age of those getting this virus?
What are the living conditions...large numbers living in crowded households or apartment complexes?
What is the financial status....living in or near poverty, or reasonably well off?
Ethnicity....are there minorities who are at greater risk?
Pre-existing Conditions...diabetes, obesity, etc.?

There are just more questions than answers with the information that the media is reporting, IMO.  The Mask and Distancing mandates are certainly a help, but it seems to me that if any "groups" could be identified who might be at greater risk, and efforts taken to reduce the risks among those people, we would be far more likely to get a reduction in numbers.


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## JimBob1952

Sunny said:


> Gary, we are leading in the number of deaths. Doesn't that tell you something?  There is absolutely no justification or excuse for that.




In terms of deaths per 100,000 of population, we rank 14th.  That tells me something, but I'm not sure what.  

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


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## asp3

@Don M. - I've seen the information you seek spread throughout various articles and TV news reports I've read and heard but I haven't seen a comprehensive article covering all of your questions.  Here are the answers I have based on what I've read and heard.  I don't have sources to back up my answers but I could probably find some.

People who have to congregate with others either in transportation or through their work places (healthcare workers, meat processing plants, grocery stores, etc...) have higher chances of being infected than others.

People who attend large gatherings both indoors or outdoors (weddings, official government events, church services, etc...) are also getting infected more than those who don't.  They have also been able to trace further infections of others to those events even though they didn't attend them.

There have been some dorms where students didn't socially distance and/or gathered in larger than recommended or allowed numbers passed it to one another.

The age of those getting the virus here in the US has gone down over time with older people getting it more often at first (probably due to nursing home infections) and then getting younger as more young people are exposed through increased exposure or through their own behavior.

I haven't heard about apartment complexes, but folks who live in larger groups have been more affected and as pointed out above students in dorms have been affected.

You have to dig through the info that's there to find these things but the info is there.

People living in the lower economic groups have been affected more than those in higher economic groups but that is most likely due to the ability of higher earning people having more choices about how the travel and how they live.

Covid-19 has been more deadly to minorities, but that may be due to the fact that the incidence of conditions that lead to higher mortality rates (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure and other conditions) are more prevalent in those groups.


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## AnnieA

asp3 said:


> Agreed, but "most countries have done better than we have" would be an accurate statement.
> 
> It's also difficult to assess how well or poorly countries have done because they each had their own initial exposure date.  Also we have to take into account the medical infrastructure in each country.  Is it fair to say a country did better than another simply because it has enough medical resources to prevent people from dying?
> 
> However if we just go by deaths per million based on the info at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data the following countries have done worse than we have.  In a list of 200 countries we are the 13th worst country
> 
> Belgium - 1248.01
> San Marino - 1237.55
> Peru - 1069.73
> Andorra - 983.63
> Spain - 882.23
> Argentina - 790.09
> Brazil - 781.02
> Chile - 777.51
> U.K. - 768.16
> Mexico - 766.76
> Bolivia - 758.07
> Italy - 756.39
> 
> USA - 746.86



You also have to consider testing per population and accuracy of reporting.  Of the countries in your list, Belgium, the UK, the US and Spain are close in testing and I'd imagine close as well in reliability.   There are so many nations we know that do not have the health infrastructure to test or track that are much higher in deaths per million than those listed above (much of the Africa, the Middle East, parts of South America).  Then there are the liars.

You can get a partial guesstimate of this by flipping the selection criteria to show lowest testing per 1M which gives you a Top 18 of countries that don't even register enough testing to report even with millions+ population. Then you get Yemen, South Sudan, Niger, Haiti, Madagascar, Afghanistan, etc.  You have to go all the way to country #117 (Morocco) to get to even 100,000/1M.  China's testing rate is only 111,163/1M and I don't for a minute believe that they have *3*/1M deaths ...yep 3 ...not a typo.

Tests per 1 million population from the list above:

UK ------- 576,119/1M
US ------- 516,562/1M
Belgium - 473, 787/1M
Spain ---- 443,569/1M


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## Liberty

Skyped with my good friend in Geneva, who works in WHO...she said in Belgium they classified about every  death as covid, no matter what they died from.  Long story...seems in France it was about the opposite so honestly, don't know how we could trust the death ratio numbers, period.


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## Aunt Marg

Liberty said:


> Skyped with my good friend in Geneva, who works in WHO...she said in Belgium they classified about every  death as covid, no matter what they died from.  Long story...seems in France it was about the opposite so honestly, don't know how we could trust the death ratio numbers, period.


I haven't trusted Covid-19, death numbers from day one, and I'm even less trusting of them now.


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## Liberty

Aunt Marg said:


> I haven't trusted Covid-19, death numbers from day one, and I'm even less trusting of them now.


Yes, seems in some countries, they classified people that couldn't get in the hospitals and died as automatically having covid.  They didn't even test or have tests widely available in some countries.   My friend told me the stories and she is in a position to know - she has worked for WHO for many years. It shouldn't surprise us, should it.


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## Aunt Marg

Liberty said:


> Yes, seems in some countries, they classified people that couldn't get in the hospitals and died as automatically having covid.  They didn't even test or have tests widely available in some countries.   My friend told me the stories and she is in a position to know - she has worked for WHO for many years. It shouldn't surprise us, should it.


I agree, Liberty.

Numbers (I believe) are skewed _and being skewed_, and as you say there are certain countries... _questionable countries, _that I trust nothing about or anything that they say.


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## Liberty

Aunt Marg said:


> I agree, Liberty.
> 
> Numbers (I believe) are skewed _and being skewed_, and as you say there are certain countries... _questionable countries, _that I trust nothing about or anything that they say.


Absolutely agree.  Think we just have to each one of us assess our own risks, keep safe and keep on keeping on for the present.  She also said that many countries are working on vaccines and was skeptical about the efficacy of same.  Personally, I'll be really scrutinizing the side effects data of the vaccines that will be available here in America.


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## Aunt Marg

Liberty said:


> Absolutely agree.  Think we just have to each one of us assess our own risks, keep safe and keep on keeping on for the present.  She also said that many countries are working on vaccines and was skeptical about the efficacy of same.  Personally, I'll be really scrutinizing the side effects data of the vaccines that will be available here in America.


I'll be right there with you regarding scrutinizing the side-effects of any/all vaccines.

To be perfectly honest, I refuse to trust anything related to any Covid-19 vaccine drug that comes out, because as far as I'm concerned it's being pushed and developed too fast. I don't believe any of the trials whatsoever. Nothing but lip-service IMO.

I just heard in the news this morning, Canada is looking to close all travel to and from the Island (Vancouver Island) account the rise in Covid cases and deaths.

I had a feeling things were going to take a grim turn this fall, and my hunch is coming true.


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## peramangkelder

This from an Australian News Source 18th November
'The South Australian government has announced an immediate six-day lockdown followed by a further 
week of tough restrictions as the state scrambles to avoid a second wave of coronavirus infections.'


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## Liberty

And people are waiting in long lines to get tested so they can have Thanksgiving dinners together...like that makes much difference.  Please, the false negatives on those tests are so high and even if you'd get a true negative, you are still getting together with others that could be carriers of the virus.

Its like we just are fighting against the facts. Yesterday a nurse told about how some were dying and saying they couldn't have the virus, that it was a "hoax"....those  words were a patient of hers - last words.


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## Aunt Marg

Liberty said:


> And people are waiting in long lines to get tested so they can have Thanksgiving dinners together...like that makes much difference.  Please, the false negatives on those tests are so high and even if you'd get a true negative, you are still getting together with others that could be carriers of the virus.
> 
> Its like we just are fighting against the facts. Yesterday a nurse told about how some were dying and saying they couldn't have the virus, that it was a "hoax"....those  words were a patient of hers - last words.


You said it, Liberty, and so very well!

I have been limiting my outings to once a week for months now, and with the fall season upon us and reports of Covid cases spiking, I've been buying more when I shop in order to try and extend my outings a few days longer.

Anything to be away and stay away from others at this time.


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## Aunt Marg

peramangkelder said:


> This from an Australian News Source 18th November
> 'The South Australian government has announced an immediate six-day lockdown followed by a further
> week of tough restrictions as the state scrambles to avoid a second wave of coronavirus infections.'


All I can say is, take care of yourself, Peram.


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## kburra

We had a long lockdown from March, but now our State Victoria (Australia) *NO New cases and NO deaths for the last 18 days, *this Sunday most restrictions will be lifted!!


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## Treacle

We are in lockdown until December 2nd. Ministers are working on a common approach throughout the UK that will allow families to meet up at Christmas. But, as the article notes, there will be consequences. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54998436


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## hollydolly

peramangkelder said:


> This from an Australian News Source 18th November
> 'The South Australian government has announced an immediate six-day lockdown followed by a further
> week of tough restrictions as the state scrambles to avoid a second wave of coronavirus infections.'


6 days ?... I know a second lockdown is rotten.. but 6 days ?... I wonder how they think that short time will make any difference. 

Currently we're half way through a second lockdown of  almost 4 weeks


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## Liberty

hollydolly said:


> 6 days ?... I know a second lockdown is rotten.. but 6 days ?... I wonder how they think that short time will make any difference.
> 
> Currently we're half way through a second lockdown of  almost 4 weeks


Is there a holiday  that comes up within that time or special event they are trying to stem the tide from?  Some places I heard here in America ordered a 2 week "stay at home" ...probably due to Thanksgiving being next Thursday.  Of course, to do that to Americans is like trying to herd cats or nail jello!


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## hollydolly

Liberty said:


> Is there a holiday  that comes up within that time or special event they are trying to stem the tide from?  Some places I heard here in America ordered a 2 week "stay at home" ...probably due to Thanksgiving being next Thursday.  Of course, to do that to Americans is like trying to herd cats or nail jello!


No holiday...the next holiday is Christmas


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## Liberty

hollydolly said:


> No holiday...the next holiday is Christmas


Hmmm.  Wonder why 2 weeks then.  Any guesses?


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## hollydolly

Liberty said:


> Hmmm.  Wonder why 2 weeks then.  Any guesses?


it's 4 weeks


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## tbeltrans

Our state is now tightening also.  As of tomorrow (11/20) restaurants will be only able to offer take out and bars will be closed along with many other types of businesses and schools.  No social gatherings except small gatherings of immediate family.  This will apparently be in force for a month, though with caveats that it could be extended depending on how the numbers look at that time.

While I can see attempting to slow the spread of the virus since local hospitals are being overrun with patients and the death toll is high around here these days, the temporary lock down reminds me of a school kid being picked on by bullies.  The kid runs home while the bullies wait outside on the street for the kid to come out.  If he never comes out, the bullies can't get to him, but as soon as he does come out, there they are ready and waiting.  So even if the temporary lock down does slow the spread of the virus (assuming everybody complies), as soon as the lock down is lifted, here we go again, as we have already seen since March.

The only solution I see is a medical one, some sort of vaccine or other means of alleviating the symptoms so that it is less harmful when people do get the virus.  So do we lock down until such a medical solution is provided?  This could be a ways away yet even though advancements are being bandied about in the media, but the economic suffering on the part of businesses and individuals who lose jobs continues to worsen.  The government can't dole out billions in relief packages to help everybody out forever (and it can't not do that either), so at some point there will be some sort of reckoning on all this, bringing it all to a head.

In short, I don't have an answer but I don't see any from anyone else either.  Personally, I am fine in the lock down but am also aware that many folks aren't for a variety of reasons.  It all seems like a no-win situation and I would not want to be the one making these decisions that affect millions of people.

Tony


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## garyt1957

tbeltrans said:


> In short, I don't have an answer but I don't see any from anyone else either.  Personally, I am fine in the lock down but am also aware that many folks aren't for a variety of reasons.  It all seems like a no-win situation and I would not want to be the one making these decisions that affect millions of people.
> 
> Tony


Actually there are plenty of people with answers. Are they good answers? Who knows? Some people want to more or less go about our business and protect the most vulnerable and keep the economy afloat. Others want a near complete lockdown. Which is the more appropriate response? Like you, I wouldn't want to be the one making those choices, especially in this environment where somebody's going to try and blame any deaths on you personally for any choices you make.


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## MarciKS

tbeltrans said:


> Our state is now tightening also.  As of tomorrow (11/20) restaurants will be only able to offer take out and bars will be closed along with many other types of businesses and schools.  No social gatherings except small gatherings of immediate family.  This will apparently be in force for a month, though with caveats that it could be extended depending on how the numbers look at that time.
> 
> While I can see attempting to slow the spread of the virus since local hospitals are being overrun with patients and the death toll is high around here these days, the temporary lock down reminds me of a school kid being picked on by bullies.  The kid runs home while the bullies wait outside on the street for the kid to come out.  If he never comes out, the bullies can't get to him, but as soon as he does come out, there they are ready and waiting.  So even if the temporary lock down does slow the spread of the virus (assuming everybody complies), as soon as the lock down is lifted, here we go again, as we have already seen since March.
> 
> The only solution I see is a medical one, some sort of vaccine or other means of alleviating the symptoms so that it is less harmful when people do get the virus.  So do we lock down until such a medical solution is provided?  This could be a ways away yet even though advancements are being bandied about in the media, but the economic suffering on the part of businesses and individuals who lose jobs continues to worsen.  The government can't dole out billions in relief packages to help everybody out forever (and it can't not do that either), so at some point there will be some sort of reckoning on all this, bringing it all to a head.
> 
> In short, I don't have an answer but I don't see any from anyone else either.  Personally, I am fine in the lock down but am also aware that many folks aren't for a variety of reasons.  It all seems like a no-win situation and I would not want to be the one making these decisions that affect millions of people.
> 
> Tony


We all are hoping for that but until then we have to do something since people refuse to cooperate. And frankly it's not fair to healthcare workers to be this overwhelmed because people won't even try to stay home and protect themselves and others. Because they are selfish. They want their way. Now they're getting it and people are dying because of it. That's BS in my book.


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## doat

Waiting for our do nothing, know nothing congress to act on bringing back PPE production, bring back the manufacturing of all pharmaceuticals.


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## Aneeda72

fmdog44 said:


> Yesterday I saw a news piece where four young people maybe in their mid 20's were sitting outside and one of them said he thought the whole thing is a hoax. Hard to believe anyone is that stupid but then when you look at how obesity is also rampaging stupid is now the norm.


There are many reasons that people have a problem with obesity.  Please do not compare this issue to the virus.  It’s like apples and tomatoes, both a fruit but very very different.


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## gennie

Only someone who does not keep up with current events could still believe the virus is a hoax.  Or someone who relies on a dodgy irresponsible news source.


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## gennie

My state had 9,085 new positive cases yesterday and 7,925 the day before. By the end of the month, we will no doubt pass 1,000,000.   Blew it for sure.


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## garyt1957

gennie said:


> Only someone who does not keep up with current events could still believe the virus is a hoax.  Or someone who relies on a dodgy irresponsible news source.


I haven't seen any news source suggest this virus is a hoax. None. And I watch them from all sides of the aisle. There seems to be a group of people who see themselves as smarter than anybody else, hence only they realize the virus is a hoax, masks are useless, it's only a cold,etc.


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## Irwin

garyt1957 said:


> I haven't seen any news source suggest this virus is a hoax. None. And I watch them from all sides of the aisle. There seems to be a group of people who see themselves as smarter than anybody else, hence only they realize the virus is a hoax, masks are useless, it's only a cold,etc.



That's a good example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. These people only get information from sources that reinforce their beliefs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


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## tbeltrans

The virus IS a hoax...(runs for cover...).   

Earlier this morning I went grocery shopping.  This was during the time for vulnerable people, us old farts.  Everybody I saw in the store was wearing a mask and observing social distancing.  This seems typical of older folks around my area.  It seems that among the younger crowd, there is a mix of those who observe distancing and wearing a mask, and those who ignore these things.

Tony


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## Irwin

tbeltrans said:


> The virus IS a hoax...(runs for cover...).
> 
> Earlier this morning I went grocery shopping.  This was during the time for vulnerable people, us old farts.  Everybody I saw in the store was wearing a mask and observing social distancing.  This seems typical of older folks around my area.  It seems that among the younger crowd, there is a mix of those who observe distancing and wearing a mask, and those who ignore these things.
> 
> Tony



When you're young, you think you're invincible. I see shirtless young men in shorts playing Frisbee football at the park when it's below freezing out. I used to do things like that when I was young, although Frisbee football had yet to be invented.

Add to that the stigma conservatives have associated with wearing a mask, and the result is the disaster our country is currently experiencing.


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## Remy

gennie said:


> The key to controlling this is not in government regulations.  It's in everyone taking personal responsibility for their own safety and that of their neighbor.
> 
> Learn the *facts* about your own village/community/town - the space you move about in. Determine your own susceptibility and level of comfort.
> 
> Then use common sense and do the right thing.


I agree with your post. But the reality is, people are just not going to do this. Or maybe too many are just not smart enough. I don't know what the problem is but something is wrong. People can live without getting together for the holidays for one year but too many won't take that step. I hear people talking.


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## Don M.

For most of the Summer and Fall, most of the people in our area were wearing masks at the stores.  In recent weeks, that number seems to have dropped substantially.  The numbers in our State keep going up, but it seems that fewer people are taking precautions.  With the holidays quickly approaching, and no cure in sight, I expect the numbers to go substantially higher in January, after all the family gatherings.


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## Ruthanne

Given that only 80% get seriously sick or die from it it seems as common as the common cold of which it is a relative.  Seems they are causing so much anxiety in so many of us with this statistic reporting every day.  I know very well of all the complications of it and who is most vulnerable already and frankly am sick to death of the reports of all the millions of cases.  I think they are just making money on reporting it *4 times a day or so *along with all their commercial sponsors trying to sell their goods and paying the tv networks a very good dollar for it.

So, I for one will just enjoy my Spotify music and stay away from crowds, wear a mask and wash my hands like we were told 8 mos. ago and I have not forgot after being reminded 99 times.  In my county we are now told to stay home because of the prevalence of virus.


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## Mat

I don't plan on skipping this vaccine when it is released.  Not that I am afraid,  but I want to remain immune from all the wannabe Kings and Queens that become the vaccine police.  This dirty old paper mask I have now is falling apart and I ask about buying one at the gas station where I bought this one, they stopped selling the low cost cheap ones and now are asking a ransom for some fancy sewn mask that is about as effective as a gag.  I already have heart problems and loss of breath and can't breathe when wearing that paper mask, worse I wear my glasses to shop and when I breathe in the cold store air my glasses fog up due to wearing the mask.  I would rather the stores be forced to take the temperatures at the door rather than doing something un natural like wearing a mask.  It reminds me of the last part of the movie Night of The Living Dead, the last guy alive and he looks out the window and catches one between the eyes.  Some poor fool will walk into a 7/11 and get shot one day for entering the store wearing a mask.


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## Pink Biz

DaveA said:


> And we have had or have none of the above.  No wonder we've been behind the "eight-ball' from day one.  *Canada is closing the door on us and it's surprising that Mexico hasn't done the same. *
> 
> Hopefully, a proven, working vaccine will come along sooner rather than later and save us from this slide into oblivion.


Actually, Mexico has restricted _land_ travel from USA since March, but air travel is not restricted.

https://www.mexperience.com/mexico-land-border-restrictions-closure-covid-19/


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## peramangkelder

The 'Circuit Breaker Lockdown' ended in South Australia at midnight last night
This from our local newspaper The Sunday Mail

Now nobody knows if they are 'Arthur or Martha'


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## Aneeda72

Ruthanne said:


> Given that only 80% get seriously sick or die from it it seems as common as the common cold of which it is a relative.  Seems they are causing so much anxiety in so many of us with this statistic reporting every day.  I know very well of all the complications of it and who is most vulnerable already and frankly am sick to death of the reports of all the millions of cases.  I think they are just making money on reporting it *4 times a day or so *along with all their commercial sponsors trying to sell their goods and paying the tv networks a very good dollar for it.
> 
> So, I for one will just enjoy my Spotify music and stay away from crowds, wear a mask and wash my hands like we were told 8 mos. ago and I have not forgot after being reminded 99 times.  In my county we are now told to stay home because of the prevalence of virus.


I wonder about the people who were not already washing their hands several times a day.  What’s up with that?  I mean, for adults, washing your hands, several times a day, should be second nature.


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## Aneeda72

Mat said:


> I don't plan on skipping this vaccine when it is released.  Not that I am afraid,  but I want to remain immune from all the wannabe Kings and Queens that become the vaccine police.  This dirty old paper mask I have now is falling apart and I ask about buying one at the gas station where I bought this one, they stopped selling the low cost cheap ones and now are asking a ransom for some fancy sewn mask that is about as effective as a gag.  I already have heart problems and loss of breath and can't breathe when wearing that paper mask, worse I wear my glasses to shop and when I breathe in the cold store air my glasses fog up due to wearing the mask.  I would rather the stores be forced to take the temperatures at the door rather than doing something un natural like wearing a mask.  It reminds me of the last part of the movie Night of The Living Dead, the last guy alive and he looks out the window and catches one between the eyes.  Some poor fool will walk into a 7/11 and get shot one day for entering the store wearing a mask.


You can buy 50 paper masks on Amazon for about 15 dollars or at Lowe’s or at Home Depot or at many different places.  Wearing a dirty, falling apart mask is not only unsightly, but I doubt it offers much protection, and it’s probably loaded with virus.  Catching the virus, is about virus load, the amount you are exposed to.

I would not recommend reusing a paper mask without wiping it down with a wipe.   I’ve seen people wearing dirty paper masks.  It’s like someone never washing their face, IMO.  With your conditions it is best to be more careful and always wear a new clean paper mask.  Many people do not run a fever when they have the virus.  Stay safe.


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## StarSong

Aneeda72 said:


> I wonder about the people who were not already washing their hands several times a day.  What’s up with that?  I mean, for adults, washing your hands, several times a day, should be second nature.


I think most adults washed our hands several times a day, but how many of us did so thoroughly when returning home from an errand, after putting away groceries, or having other contact with the outside world? 

I virtually never used hand sanitizer before last February - other than on cruise ships.  Now I keep a little refillable bottle in my purse and use it every time I'm about to get into my car while out running errands.


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## Liberty

Earlier this fall it occurred to me that even though the experts were saying the flu season would be a bad one, if we were getting shots, wearing masks, social distancing  and washing our hands, wouldn't that make it much less able to be transferred, like covid?  That would prevent a lot of flu germs from spreading I'd think.

When we flew a lot for business, I was always washing my hands - often would get some kind of "pip" after coming back home...but honestly never did use hand sanitizers - just lotions to help cracked hands- as a result of excess washing in the winter.


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## MarciKS

they're keeping everything open here with a gathering limit of 15 with distancing. at work they think it's ok for 8 people to sit together at the same table with no distancing. cuz their tards. that's all they did was limit the number of people for gatherings. i don't know wth our governor is thinking but whatever.


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## StarSong

Liberty said:


> Earlier this fall it occurred to me that even though the experts were saying the flu season would be a bad one, if we were getting shots, wearing masks, social distancing and washing our hands, wouldn't that make it much less able to be transferred, like covid? That would prevent a lot of flu germs from spreading I'd think.


I agree completely.  DH & I typically get several colds every year because our daughter & SIL are both teachers and they've got two elementary aged kids - so someone's sniffling with something in their house at least every other month.  

Since March they've been doing online school and we all follow the precautions you mentioned.  Not one of the six of us has been sick with anything since early March.  

It's hard to imagine the flu will get a foothold this year.


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## Aneeda72

MarciKS said:


> they're keeping everything open here with a gathering limit of 15 with distancing. at work they think it's ok for 8 people to sit together at the same table with no distancing. cuz their tards. that's all they did was limit the number of people for gatherings. i don't know wth our governor is thinking but whatever.


I guess he’s thinking that the adults will make the right decisions and he wants to be re elected.  He obviously stupid.


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## MickaC

A very strict code red lockdown for us.
Only essentials are allowed to be sold.
Several businesses are closed till December 12, from there, we don't know.
Grocery store, pharmacy are open to full shopping.
Home Hardware, and another hardware stores sign says open......don't know what restrictions entail.
Clothing and footwear stores are closed.
Bank is open.
One small toy type store is open for curbside only.
Red Apple store is open........but........only food and health items are allowed to be bought...........everything else in the store is sectioned off.......with police type tape used that says.....Do Not Enter, Restricted Area.
When i went into Red Apple.......a very odd feeling came over me......somewhat scary, and sad.


----------

