# This is murder



## mitchezz (Dec 30, 2015)

Who shoots at someone before knowing who it is? At the very least she should have given a warning before shooting. 


http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...d/news-story/2c2fa137f061129adc65918040d7be6f


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## fureverywhere (Dec 30, 2015)

My grandfather always had a legal " Saturday Night Special" in his dining room drawer. One night my family came by on a regular visit to clean his home. He was maybe in his late 80's and met us at the door gun drawn. Fortunately my Dad got him in touch with who we were. Sold that gun some time later. Do you see the problem there?


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## Warrigal (Dec 30, 2015)

I've just found the Gun Violence Archive on the link in the OP.

This statistic hit me in the eye



> There were 27 people killed and 63 injured in shooting incidents on Christmas Day.



Intrigued I went to the Gun Violence Archive (http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/) and found this mission statement



> The Gun Violence Archive is an online archive of gun violence incidents collected from over 1,200 media, government and commercial sources daily in an effort to provide  near-real time data about the results of gun violence.
> 
> *Mission Statement*
> 
> ...


Since this is not an advocacy group it is reasonable to trust the data and with this in mind please note the following statistics

*2015 Gun Violence Archive
*Number of deaths 13,253
Number of injuries 26,756
Number of children (0-11) Killed/injured 693
Number of teens (12-17) Killed/injured 2,668
Mass shooting incidents 329
Officer involved incident 4,335
Home invasion incident 4,335
Defensive use incident 1,258
Accidental shooting incident 1,927​ 
Date validated Dec 13 2013
To compare with 2014 see here: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

It is interesting to try to draw conclusions from the raw data but that would be a mistake IMO.

For example - there were only 319 mass shooting incidents in 2015 so that's not too bad is it? 
Not too bad until we realise that this is equivalent to one for every day over a ten month period. 
In that light it is not that good is it?

There were 4,335 home invasion incidents and 1,258 defensive use incidents. 
Some of those defensive use incidents may have been in the context of home invasion but it would be necessary to look at each incident to see how many home invasions were successfully defended. 
Or how many attempted robberies on the street were avoided.

Still it would be interesting to trawl through the data because it would seem to be verified with references.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

One of the more interesting - and rarely remarked upon - aspects of gun ownership is that one cannot count the number of times a home invasion, robbery, mugging, etc. has been averted just by a show of force - by bringing out the weapon and intimidating the perp into fleeing. These incidents are not usually reported.


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## mitchezz (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> One of the more interesting - and rarely remarked upon - aspects of gun ownership is that one cannot count the number of times a home invasion, robbery, mugging, etc. has been averted just by a show of force - by bringing out the weapon and intimidating the perp into fleeing. These incidents are not usually reported.



If they're not reported how can you know they're happening?


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> If they're not reported how can you know they're happening?



Exactly - or NOT happening.

Data is only useful as far as it can be collected.


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## Warrigal (Dec 31, 2015)

You mean the home owner doesn't bother to notify the police?
I find that hard to believe, Mr Smart.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

Well, I don't have figures - of course not! - but you might be surprised at how many times there are incidents that are not reported. 

"Mr. Smart"?!?


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> One of the more interesting - and rarely remarked upon - aspects of gun ownership is that one cannot count the number of times a home invasion, robbery, mugging, etc. has been averted just by a show of force - by bringing out the weapon and intimidating the perp into fleeing. These incidents are not usually reported.



We just had one here in Albuquerque this last weekend that WAS reported.  A young girl, home alone with her younger sister, scared an intruder off with her BB gun.


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## Laurie (Dec 31, 2015)

"Who shoots at someone before knowing who it is"

.Oscar Pistorius, that's who!


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> You mean the home owner doesn't bother to notify the police?
> I find that hard to believe, Mr Smart.



Everything reported to police does not make the news, at least no here.  I think he meant it didn't make the news.  And I, also, believe they happen quite frequently and do not make the news because they are not spectacular enough -- no blood or violence.  The Albuquerque incident made the news because it was a 13 year old girl home alone with her younger sister, who foiled the intruder.


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "Who shoots at someone before knowing who it is"
> 
> .Oscar Pistorius, that's who!



That's only if you believe he didn't know who it was.  I've had very few intruders in my bathroom.


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> Who shoots at someone before knowing who it is? At the very least she should have given a warning before shooting.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...d/news-story/2c2fa137f061129adc65918040d7be6f




Well -- since I live alone, and anybody -- family, or friends -- who knows me would know to holler "Hey, it's me" if they came into my dark house at 3:00 AM, and since if it were cops or fire personnel they'd verbally identify themselves,  and since only two other people on the planet have an key and they both know I keep a gun near my bed and would definitely holler out, and if somebody unexpected was coming down my back hall toward my bedroom silently at 3:00 AM . . . .


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Well -- since I live alone, and anybody -- family, or friends -- who knows me would know to holler "Hey, it's me" if they came into my dark house at 3:00 AM, and since if it were cops or fire personnel they'd verbally identify themselves,  and since only two other people on the planet have an key and they both know I keep a gun near my bed and would definitely holler out, and if somebody unexpected was coming down my back hall toward my bedroom silently at 3:00 AM . . . .



Well, there goes the New Years surprise I had planned ... 

Just having worked as a bouncer I can attest to how many incidents are not reported nor placed in the media.


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

Sorry I wrecked your surprise, Phil -- just remember to holler out!  I'd hate to mess up your happy new year banner.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

LOL what a visual!

Hey, I heard someone in NM won the $10,000/wk for life Publisher's Clearing House contest - was it you? Buddy? Pal? Friend?


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## Warrigal (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Well, I don't have figures - of course not! - but you might be surprised at how many times there are incidents that are not reported.
> 
> "Mr. Smart"?!?



Agent 86.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 31, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> You mean the home owner doesn't bother to notify the police?
> I find that hard to believe, Mr Smart.



Nah...  Here they shoot 'em and bury them in the back yard....  then tic another notch in their gun handle..  lol!!


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## QuickSilver (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Well, I don't have figures - of course not! - but you might be surprised at how many times there are incidents that are not reported.
> 
> "Mr. Smart"?!?



So someone breaks into your home..  you shoot them.. or just scare them away and you wouldn't call the cops?   Seriously?.....


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So someone breaks into your home..  you shoot them.. or just scare them away and you wouldn't call the cops?   Seriously?.....



It all depends.


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## Don M. (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> One of the more interesting - and rarely remarked upon - aspects of gun ownership is that one cannot count the number of times a home invasion, robbery, mugging, etc. has been averted just by a show of force - by bringing out the weapon and intimidating the perp into fleeing. These incidents are not usually reported.



There are any number of reports that show evidence of armed citizens protecting themselves or their property.  However, the media never reports on these incidents.  Here is one such report that claims that armed citizens stop as many as 2.5 million crimes each year.  I think that number may be a bit optimistic, but for anyone who wants to do the research, this report contains several footnotes where its data can be verified.

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm


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## Falcon (Dec 31, 2015)

Sometimes reporting leads to more complications than NOT reporting.

So, sit down and think about it before doing something rash.


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## 911 (Dec 31, 2015)

Some of you people scare me.

I think some people have the laws a bit misconstrued. Reading laws, interpreting laws and then adjudicating the laws are sometimes done by people that just think they know what they're talking about. 

You can be 100% right according to a law and still be found guilty. A person may also be acquitted or found innocent, but be a huge loser in civil court. 

Am I being vague enough? Well, some laws are also vague and really don't mean what some people think they mean.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 31, 2015)

If someone were breaking into my house.... even if I scared him away... I would call the police.. at least to alert them someone like that is on the prowl in my neighborhood..  I can't begin to understand who wouldn't...  unless of course they were breaking the law themselves..


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## applecruncher (Dec 31, 2015)

911 said:


> *Some of you people scare me.
> 
> *I think some people have the laws a bit misconstrued. Reading laws, interpreting laws and then adjudicating the laws are sometimes done by people that just think they know what they're talking about.
> 
> ...



:lofl:


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

Boy, if I can scare a PA trooper I'm pretty darn scary!


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## applecruncher (Dec 31, 2015)

By the way,,,re: "This is murder" thread title:

Murder Iin the US) = the unlawful *premeditated *killing of one human being by another.

I'm not seeing that (based on the information reported thus far).





QuickSilver said:


> If someone were breaking into my house.... even if I scared him away... I would call the police.. at least to alert them someone like that is on the prowl in my neighborhood.. I can't begin to understand who wouldn't... unless of course they were breaking the law themselves..



Yeah, I agree.


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## mitchezz (Dec 31, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> By the way,,,re: "This is murder" thread title:
> 
> Murder Iin the US) = the unlawful *premeditated *killing of one human being by another.
> 
> I'm not seeing that (based on the information reported thus far).



I'm pretty sure she knew before she fired the gun that bullets can and do kill. I guess it depends on your definition of premeditation......thanks, I have my own dictionary.


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## imp (Dec 31, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> If someone were breaking into my house.... even if I scared him away... I would call the police.. at least to alert them someone like that is on the prowl in my neighborhood.. * I can't begin to understand who wouldn't*...  unless of course they were breaking the law themselves..



Mr. 911  might be able to corroborate, or deny, that it just might be a violation of the law to NOT call the Police after an incident of the nature which you describe. Might depend on the jurisdiction; "failure  to report a criminal act".      imp


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## Butterfly (Dec 31, 2015)

I still thought we were talking about incidents "reported" by the press, NOT about crimes "reported" to the police.  Of course people report things like that to the police (most do, anyway), but the media doesn't pick up and "report" them, because there's no splash usually.  None of us civilians know how many things are "reported" to the police that we never hear about; only what's "reported" in the media.

My dog (RIP) took a chunk out of of the south end of a bad guy breaking into my house years ago.  I duly "reported" it to the police, but it was of course never reported in the news.  Just because you don't see something in the news doesn't mean it didn't happen!!  Geez!


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## tnthomas (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> One of the more interesting - and rarely remarked upon - aspects of gun ownership is that one cannot count the number of times a home invasion, robbery, mugging, etc. has been averted just by a show of force - by bringing out the weapon and intimidating the perp into fleeing. These incidents are not usually reported.



I can vouch for one such incident.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> I can vouch for one such incident.



I think anyone who opens their eyes - and their mind - will see at least that many incidents in their life, but there is a large contingent of System-indoctrinated robots who nay-say any possibility of this happening.


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## Warrigal (Dec 31, 2015)

Reporting to the police is very important even if nothing comes of it. 
Police stations keep a book of such phone reports and they can be important intel later.


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## mitchezz (Dec 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I think anyone who opens their eyes - and their mind - will see at least that many incidents in their life, but there is a large contingent of System-indoctrinated robots who nay-say any possibility of this happening.



Well I'm no robot and I can honestly say that at 61 I have never known anyone who was an intended victim of a crime and saved themselves by having a gun. Could it happen?....of course it could. Could a meteor land on me?.....of course it could.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Reporting to the police is very important even if nothing comes of it.
> Police stations keep a book of such phone reports and they can be important intel later.



What about all those domestic abuse cases that go unreported? That's bad enough, but when you are constantly reporting the abuse and they say "Well, we didn't catch him in the act", then you file a Protection from Abuse order and a week later they find it pinned to your chest by a knife? (True story)



			
				mitchezz said:
			
		

> Well I'm no robot and I can honestly say that at 61 I have never known  anyone who was an intended victim of a crime and saved themselves by  having a gun. Could it happen?....of course it could. Could a meteor  land on me?.....of course it could.



Well, I was of course excluding the millions of people who luckily go through life without being exposed to such shenanigans. Congratulations!

The "robots" I was referring to have a philosophical view that, no matter what, they WILL report every misdeed they come across. _That's_ scary. Let them take a ride on pretty much any public street - are they going to report all the speeding, tail-gating, etc. that goes on? No. Let them ride a public bus - will they report the intimidation or the loud music playing? Of course not. 

There are _levels_, and you don't necessarily report all of them. In my bouncing days I had a few knives pulled on me. Did I report them? No. I would lose time from work and mess up the life of a guy who just had a little too much to drink. He was easily handled and the knife taken away from him. But if he had actually _cut_ me? I'd probably report it, but more for medical coverage reasons than entering his name on some dubious official list.

Repeat offenders? I kept a bag of lime in the trunk ...


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## Warrigal (Dec 31, 2015)

After much publicity on the anniversary some people reported seeing a couple of cars parked in an unusual position not far from the home.
 It might have made some difference if the report was made when the newspapers were full of the disappearance. 
 Or it might not, but at least there would be no regrets about not reporting.

 Domestic violence should be reported as it happens. I nearly made such a report when I heard a child screaming in the house opposite but then the fight spilled out onto the street and I could see that the grandfather was out of control and his son was trying to subdue him. The grandchild was screaming because he was upset by the fight. I decided to mind my own business at that  stage but the police arrived anyway and everything calmed down.

 I did report the time my 12 year old daughter was on her way home from school and was lured to a car by a man wanting directions. When she approached she saw that he was exposed and masturbating. 
 She was able to give a reasonable description of the man and the car but unfortunately not the number plate. Even though he would have been long gone by the time she came home we made a report to let the police know that a pervert was active in that area targeting school children.

 My mum always said that reporting such incidents is important, especially if it prevents a future crime. 
 If waving a gun at someone is protective, then surely reporting dangerous people is also protective.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 31, 2015)

As I said earlier, it all depends. Some incidents, it may be better to report. Some not. You yourself said, in the incident with the screaming child, you decided not to call the police - because you had the time to observe the incident and judge what was really going on. Yes, the police arrived eventually but you didn't KNOW that they would.

How many times do people receive a nick on their auto and money exchanges hands, instead of reporting it to the insurance company? That's a very minor form of larceny that probably happens every day, and most people will just wink at it. Yet isn't that technically against the law? 

Cars down the street in front of the church are parked illegally every Sunday, yet no one say anything. Illegal. 

Attempted child abduction? Certainly it should be reported. 

It all depends.


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## Warrigal (Jan 1, 2016)

Attempted home invasion? Certainly it should be reported.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 1, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> Attempted home invasion? Certainly it should be reported.



Not so sure on that one. Depends how far inside they get and what happens. 

You have to remember I look at things differently. I'm not as physically capable now (although still dangerous enough), but in the "old days" a good thrashing of a would-be criminal would do far more for the recidivism rate than calling the cops. Of course not everybody has that ability, so I understand the reliance upon The System to protect them.


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## Butterfly (Jan 1, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Boy, if I can scare a PA trooper I'm pretty darn scary!



You ARE pretty scary, Phil.  I think it's the New Year's hat.


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## Butterfly (Jan 1, 2016)

Hey, Phil, can older people whose joints may not be what they used to be learn effective self-defense skills like you talk about? And use them without winding up in traction?


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## SifuPhil (Jan 1, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> You ARE pretty scary, Phil.  I think it's the New Year's hat.



Darn - I was hoping it was my diaper, and the cavalier way I wear my banner ... 

Seriously - PA troopers always scared me, even if I wasn't doing anything wrong. I think they grow them in a secret place with lot of steroids, because every one I've ever known has been over 7' tall, 300 pounds of muscle with mirror sunglasses.

Many nights I slept with my light on.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 1, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> Hey, Phil, can older people whose joints may not be what they used to be learn effective self-defense skills like you talk about? And use them without winding up in traction?



It's usually harder to get started later of course, but you can still learn some things that would help in a hand-to-hand scenario. Weight, strength and size of your attacker will be more important at this point than when you're younger, but overall the more you train the more flexible, fast and level-headed you can become.

It's true that a lot of martial arts is as much mind as it is body. 

You have to remember that I've been doing this pretty much full time since I was 12 - almost 46 years - and even with my now-gimpy leg I do my 2-hour workouts each day and teach my private student roughly 6 hours a week. Not everyone has that kind of time, granted, but like I said every little bit helps.

A good "style" for older folks might be something called Krav Maga - it is a fairly simple, no-nonsense martial art for self-defense. The problem is that there are not a lot of Krav Maga teachers in this country. 

This guy is crazy good - he's a top-level practitioner of Krav Maga - and though a lot of this clip is choreographed and I wouldn't recommend the "leaping-up-on-their-back" moves there are many moves, such as the joint locks, that you can fairly easily learn that would help.

(Turn down your speakers - some obnoxious music ahead!)


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## Pappy (Jan 1, 2016)

Being short of breath, due to my abuse to my lungs, I would stand no chance in a fight, unless I got a very lucky first punch on my opponent. However, I might be able to hold my own in this type of warfare.


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## 911 (Jan 1, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Darn - I was hoping it was my diaper, and the cavalier way I wear my banner ...
> 
> Seriously - PA troopers always scared me, even if I wasn't doing anything wrong. I think they grow them in a secret place with lot of steroids, because every one I've ever known has been over 7' tall, 300 pounds of muscle with mirror sunglasses.
> 
> Many nights I slept with my light on.




C'mon, Phil. We are not all Shaquille O'Neals. I am only 6 ft. 2 in. and weigh between 220 and 230. Not very intimidating at all and my sunglasses are Oakley Flak Jackets (Sort of fits the uniform.). Maybe it's the .45 that I carry, but I have found that the Taser worries more people than the handgun, at least that's what people tell me. I was Taser'd once and I think maybe they are onto something. It was a good thing that I had two guys to catch me or I would have put a hole in the floor the way I went down. 50,000 volts gets the heart pumping.


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## Shalimar (Jan 1, 2016)

911, only 6'2", and around 230lbs? Not intimidating? I guess that depends on the person. At 5'2" 120lbs, it certainly is intimidating enough for me, even without the sunglasses. Lolol. You could hold me in midair with one hand! Lolol.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 1, 2016)

911 said:


> C'mon, Phil. We are not all Shaquille O'Neals. I am only 6 ft. 2 in. and weigh between 220 and 230. Not very intimidating at all and my sunglasses are Oakley Flak Jackets (Sort of fits the uniform.). Maybe it's the .45 that I carry, but I have found that the Taser worries more people than the handgun, at least that's what people tell me. I was Taser'd once and I think maybe they are onto something. It was a good thing that I had two guys to catch me or I would have put a hole in the floor the way I went down. 50,000 volts gets the heart pumping.



Like Shali said, "only" 6'2" / 220? That's nightmare enough even for me.

Maybe it's something they teach you guys in school - "presence" or "command posture"? I don't know - I just know that with city cops I'm cool, rarely intimidated, but Staties? Even back in New York my brother was best friends with a State cop, and even when he came over to our house there was something that inspired awe and not a little fear.

Thank you for you service, BTW.

As for gun vs. Taser - I agree. I think the same way with knife vs. gun - I'd rather get shot in an arm or leg than get stabbed. It just seems like a "cleaner" wound.


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## Misty (Jan 1, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> 911, only 6'2", and around 230lbs? Not intimidating? I guess that depends on the person. At 5'2" 120lbs, it certainly is intimidating enough for me, even without the sunglasses. Lolol. You could hold me in midair with one hand! Lolol.



At 5'2" and 105 pounds, he could juggle me with the other hand, Shali


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## 911 (Jan 13, 2016)

Sorry I am late acknowledging your comments. Thanks for the comments. I don't see myself in the same light as others and I never heard any of my brethren talking about their intimidating actions either. I like to think that the state police of any state is respected. We try our best to earn respect by showing respect and being a good listener and not being confrontational. It's all part of the training that starts when we are at the Academy. Every state cop that I know tries their best to be professional when doing their job. 

I made friends with a few Texas Rangers (not baseball players) years back. I respect them to the hilt with what they have to contend with down there and along the border.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 13, 2016)

Real intimidators usually don't talk about it - they just _are_.  

Texas Rangers have a long, colorful history, don't they?


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## Pappy (Jan 13, 2016)

When the NYS troopers came to our high school to talk to us guys, I had wanted to become a trooper but, back then, you had to be at least six foot tall and have 20/20 vision. I failed this on both counts. I went in the Army. Back then they weren't fussy about who joined.


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 14, 2016)

mitchezz said:


> Who shoots at someone before knowing who it is? At the very least she should have given a warning before shooting.
> 
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...d/news-story/2c2fa137f061129adc65918040d7be6f




In the UK you would definitely be prosecuted for shooting someone as guns for protection are ILLEGAL, thank goodness.


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