# Judge admonished me to not use the term “young lady”.



## Islandgypsy (Jan 6, 2020)

I’m 73. Was questioning an insurance employee who appeared by “telephone witnessing”. I assumed she was young but judge told me to never use that derogatory term in his court room.????


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## Mrs. Robinson (Jan 6, 2020)

For some reason,the term "young lady" sounds kind of condescending to me. And you never know anyway-up until a couple of years ago,when we gave up our landline,I would frequently get calls asking if my mother was there. Not just from telemarketers,even from friends-even though they knew my kids don`t live here anymore lol.


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## hollydolly (Jan 6, 2020)

I wouldn't call it derogatory...how is either ''young'' or ''lady'' derogatory? ( rhetorical question obvs)  however I could see him thinking it might be patronising


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## Mrs. Robinson (Jan 6, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I wouldn't call it derogatory...how is either ''young'' or ''lady'' derogatory? ( rhetorical question obvs)  however I could see him thinking it might be patronising



Patronizing is the word I was looking for lol.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> Patronizing is the word I was looking for lol.


It would be patronizing if calling someone over 40-50 ''young lady'',  calling someone younger "that" is, IMO, just "old fashioned".  I never call anyone young lady or young man or call someone ''son'' (he's not my son).


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## JustBonee (Jan 6, 2020)

It just seems to have the tone of 'scolding'   for some reason ...


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## jerry old (Jan 6, 2020)

Derogatory?  Horse feathers!
It is close to be a complimentary form of address.
('Young lady, I'm an old fart, how about explaining this form to me?"
Also, young man, or young fella.

I've been called 'Young Man,' often, I certainly don't think of it as a derogatory statement.)

Bet'cha the judge is a young fella, lot's of space in his brain for knowledge and wisdom.


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## Sassycakes (Jan 6, 2020)

I miss the days when I was called Young Lady. I do not find it offensive in any way.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 6, 2020)

I guess it's akin to being call old man or old woman and depends on the tone and nonverbal aspects in which it's delivered.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I guess it's akin to *being call old man or old woman *and depends on the tone and nonverbal aspects in which it's delivered.


That's on the opposite end, and still insulting or more so.  Unless you're describing for the cops or a story, there's no need to say it.

On the other hand, I knew this guy who called old women ''young lady'', some smiled with pleasure, most of them acted uncomfortable and gave him the side-eye.  He sounded so hypocritical and condescending, but in his mind he was being charming.


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## win231 (Jan 6, 2020)

Some people may interpret "Young Lady" as a mother scolding her teen-age daughter for staying out too late or something.


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## CrackerJack (Jan 6, 2020)

I resent being asked if I mind being called by my Forename. I say no please use my Mrs xxxxx and they do of course. Maybe I'm old fashioned


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## Gardenlover (Jan 6, 2020)

True story, just happened. I was strolling home from the corner pub after having a pint or two. A young gentleman approached from the opposite direction walking his dog,  as we crossed paths he said, "Good evening sir." I looked around for my father, but he was no where to be seen. We spoke for a few minutes about his dog. When we parted company he said, "Have a great evening sir." 

Very polite, but it still gave me the impression that he thought "I" was an old geezer. How could that be?


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## Pepper (Jan 6, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I never call anyone young lady or young man or call someone ''son'' (he's not my son).


Yeah, and I hate it when people call me "Mama."  I ain't your mama!  I find it particularly offensive when it's a woman in her fifties.  I find it least offensive when it's a young, cute, Hispanic (etc.) male.  It's a cultural thing, and they say it with affection.  Glad to be their mama, glad.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 6, 2020)

Of course, I don't mind when they call me honey.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> True story, just happened. I was strolling home from the corner pub after having a pint or two. A young gentleman approached from the opposite direction walking his dog,  as we crossed paths he said, "Good evening sir." I looked around for my father, but he was no where to be seen. We spoke for a few minutes about his dog. When we parted company he said, "Have a great evening sir."
> 
> Very polite, but it still gave me the *impression that he thought "I" was an old geezer*. How could that be?


I don't agree.  You said he was young and ''very polite'' and you're 60, he was respecting you as an older man.  Remember, "Sir'' is the way superiors are called in the armed forces and what staff calls their patrons, or how some fathers expect to be called, especially in the old days.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

CrackerJack said:


> I resent being asked if I mind being called by my Forename. I say no please use my Mrs xxxxx and they do of course. Maybe im old fashioned


I look at it another way.  I am a ''mild feminist'', though, you may be traditional.  I think that it's bad enough that women are required to assume the name of heir husband and give up their maiden name (most do it, some don't anymore), but it's even worse to give up their individuality by being known as Mrs John Smith instead of Mrs Joan Smith (not as bad).  I would rather be called Joan Smith, and use the Mrs only when necessary for some reason.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 6, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I don't agree.  You said he was young and ''very polite'' and you're 60, he was respecting you as an older man.  Remember, "Sir'' is the way superiors are called in the armed forces and what staff calls their patrons, or how some fathers expect to be called, especially in the old days.


In that case, I should have told him to drop and give me twenty.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Yeah, and I hate it when people call me "Mama."  I ain't your mama!  I find it particularly offensive when it's a woman in her fifties. * I find it least offensive when it's a young, cute, Hispanic (etc.) male.  It's a cultural thing, and they say it with affection*.  Glad to be their mama, glad.


LOL, that reminds me.  In Venezuela, my mother and older sister were walking, my sister was about 13 or so and very pretty.  She reminded me of a young Sophia Loren (where's @Gary O' ?).  Anyway, the Hispanics like the younger girls.  A group of young guys saw my sister and one of them fell on his knees in front of my mother and in a praying stance said to her,  "Bendicion, mamacita!"  (Bless me, mommy).  My mother, who was quite a prude, couldn't help laughing.


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## win231 (Jan 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> True story, just happened. I was strolling home from the corner pub after having a pint or two. A young gentleman approached from the opposite direction walking his dog,  as we crossed paths he said, "Good evening sir." I looked around for my father, but he was no where to be seen. We spoke for a few minutes about his dog. When we parted company he said, "Have a great evening sir."
> 
> Very polite, but it still gave me the impression that he thought "I" was an old geezer. How could that be?


When I turned 30 (37 years ago), I thought, Wow....I could be somebody's father!


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> In that case, I should have told him to drop and give me twenty.


That young guy probably was or is in the military.  Or maybe he was brought up to respect his elders.

I'm old and when I need to approach a man I don't know to ask a question or something I always address him as ''Sir'', I can't say "Hey, you".  Now you got me worried that maybe they felt offended by my salutation.  Say it ain't so!


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## Gardenlover (Jan 6, 2020)

Catlady said:


> That young guy probably was or is in the military.  Or maybe he was brought up to respect his elders.
> 
> I'm old and when I need to approach a man I don't know to ask a question or something I always address him as ''Sir'', I can't say "Hey, you".  Now you got me worried that maybe they felt offended by my salutation.  Say it ain't so!


It ain't so.


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## Catlady (Jan 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> When I turned 30 (37 years ago), I thought, Wow....I could be somebody's father!



A boy can impregnate a female at the average age of 13, so at 30 he can technically be a grandfather.


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## Ruthanne (Jan 7, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> It just seems to have the tone of 'scolding'   for some reason ...


I agree.  I was chatting with a guy on a dating site recently and he called me young lady.  I told him not to call me that because it sounded reprimanding.


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## Butterfly (Jan 7, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Yeah, and I hate it when people call me "Mama."  I ain't your mama!  I find it particularly offensive when it's a woman in her fifties.  I find it least offensive when it's a young, cute, Hispanic (etc.) male.  It's a cultural thing, and they say it with affection.  Glad to be their mama, glad.



I don't care how cultural it is  or whose culture it is or whether or not it is said with affection -- it is offensive and patronizing.


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## Gary O' (Jan 7, 2020)

Catlady said:


> She reminded me of a young Sophia Loren (where's @Gary O' ?).


Right where I need to be

(she can call me young man, sir, ol' fart* 'Boy on a Dolphin'*.....all OK by me)


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## Ferocious (Jan 7, 2020)

*I am astonished to hear that some of the lovely 'young ladies' on SF are upset about being referred to as 'Young Ladies'. I have called some of the young ladies hereabouts 'Young Lady, with the friendliest intention and tone, with no sarcasm or condescending meaning whatsoever. All my life there were some females known as 'tramps' because of their no so nice lifestyle, but decent, nice females were referred to as 'ladies', and, considering the vast amounts of money that some females spend attempting to look like young ladies, I would have thought that if an older gent such as I politely called them, 'Young Lady', then the young lady would take the remark as a compliment, so, I suppose there is no pleasing some young ladies, but hopefully the majority of young ladies reading this will know that I hold young ladies in high regard......
OK, 'Young Lady'? ☺*


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## StarSong (Jan 7, 2020)

"Young lady" is both condescending AND patronizing.  The correct form of address would be Miss (for a young girl or teen), Ma'am for an adult or the person's name with the appropriate salutation.  How would you have felt if she replied, "Well, I'm not sure, Old Man, let me try to recall what happened that day."  

I'm rarely a stickler for these kinds of things, but remember when I was in my late 40s and making a deposit at the bank branch I'd used for years. There was a new, very young teller who asked for my ID, then a second ID, both of which she scrutinized closely before proceeding with my transaction. At the end of the transaction she breezily said, "Thank you, StarSong," having gleaned my first name during the transaction. 

I was a bit irritated by then at the amount of time this simple deposit had taken- and was so shocked by her sudden familiarity that I let loose with, "Please don't address me by my first name. You OBVIOUSLY don't know me and we're not friends." Poor girl was stunned. I doubt she had to learn that lesson twice. 

My kids happened to be with me and were a bit shocked by my out-of-character reaction. I told that when working in retail it is appropriate to address customers as Sir or Ma'am unless invited to do otherwise, particularly if they are much older than you, it's the first time you've dealt with them, and you just spent a great deal of time checking their IDs.


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## Llynn (Jan 7, 2020)

Well now, I have learned something. I frequently address the obviously youngish women I encounter with the sobriquet "young lady" ,especially if they have done me a service in a store or other business. I thought young women liked to have their youth recognized...they will certainly spend enough money on keeping such appearance in the years ahead.

I have never had one woman complain about my use of the term. Perhaps it is because I have reached the grandfatherly cute old man stage, I have no authority over any one now days, or I say it kindly. I suppose that is one more once considered gentlemanly show of respect to the fairer sex that I will have to let go. So instead of "thank you young lady" from now on it will be "thank you fellow human"....wait that might offend a female human who is identifying as an ant eater that day. I hate the 21st Century!

I can see how a judge might fluff his feathers and put on a show about such an issue. He or she is the head monkey in that circus and even appointed judges are politicians.


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## Catlady (Jan 7, 2020)

StarSong said:


> At the end of the transaction she breezily said, "Thank you, StarSong," having gleaned my first name during the transaction.



There have been a few times when I'm emailing a business and they have a box that says  ''How do you wish to be addressed?"  How people call me has never bothered me, as long as they don't call me a bitch or something derogatory (only I can call myself a bitch), so I usually click on the first name choice.  In your situation you were not given an option and she should have been professional and called you Mrs so-so or Ma'am.


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## Catlady (Jan 7, 2020)

Llynn said:


> So instead of "thank you young lady" from now on it will be "thank you fellow human"....wait that might offend a female human who is identifying as an ant eater that day. I hate the 21st Century!



Just say "Thank you!", no need for anything else.  Unless it's your child or grandchild, then if you say,  "Thank you, honey", then the familiarity is fine and appropriate.


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## gennie (Jan 7, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Right where I need to be
> 
> (she can call me young man, sir, ol' fart* 'Boy on a Dolphin'*.....all OK by me)
> 
> View attachment 86955


Dreamer!


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## gennie (Jan 7, 2020)

What is a universally acceptable term of address if name is not known.

 My children were raised to address their elders as Sir or M'am.  We moved to another part of the country and they addressed their teacher as they had been taught and were reprimanded..  Teachers were offended.


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## Judycat (Jan 7, 2020)

Sorry Ma'am. Sorry Madam. Sorry Lady. Sorry You Old BAG!


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## Ferocious (Jan 7, 2020)

#28
*"Well, I'm not sure, Old Man, let me try to recall what happened that day." 

That would not offend me in any way, I'm not bothered what people call me as long as it's not 'Young Lady', but  'young man'....I'd be really chuffed if a lady (young or old) called me that. *


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## Butterfly (Jan 7, 2020)

Llynn said:


> Well now, I have learned something. I frequently address the obviously youngish women I encounter with the sobriquet "young lady" ,especially if they have done me a service in a store or other business. I thought young women liked to have their youth recognized...they will certainly spend enough money on keeping such appearance in the years ahead.
> 
> I have never had one woman complain about my use of the term. Perhaps it is because I have reached the grandfatherly cute old man stage, I have no authority over any one now days, or I say it kindly. I suppose that is one more once considered gentlemanly show of respect to the fairer sex that I will have to let go. So instead of "thank you young lady" from now on it will be "thank you fellow human"....wait that might offend a female human who is identifying as an ant eater that day. I hate the 21st Century!
> 
> I can see how a judge might fluff his feathers and put on a show about such an issue. He or she is the head monkey in that circus and even appointed judges are politicians.



Proper etiquette in the courtroom is a BIG deal and most judges will not tolerate deviance from it.  It isn't fluffing feathers, it is
about dignity, respect and tradition and treating all people as equals. There's one judge here that will fine you for improperly addressing a witness.


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## jerry old (Jan 8, 2020)

Yea, the military teaches you how to say sir, (You better learn)
Also, police depts. (until you get surly) in large cities, and all fed. law enforcement ages, it becomes second nature after a few years....

Always, the exception, I got pulled over in a tiny town, cop said, "get on outt'a that car booooy."

Butterfly, where you sign up for some of this patronizing, it is so easy to turn the behavior back on the speaker by numberous verbal devises.
My favorite is   'Huh', delivered with a blank face.  Then fulfill their opinion by acting as stupid as the situation-you know like a clerk at Wal-marts.
On the judges: I've know several that cuss worse than sailors once they get you in chambers.  So I don't but that court room demeanor.


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## Butterfly (Jan 8, 2020)

jerry r. garner said:


> Yea, the military teaches you how to say sir, (You better learn)
> Also, police depts. (until you get surly) in large cities, and all fed. law enforcement ages, it becomes second nature after a few years....
> 
> Always, the exception, I got pulled over in a tiny town, cop said, "get on outt'a that car booooy."
> ...



I didn't ever say judges are blameless, or that they are saints.  I said they will not accept anything less than proper decorum and etiquette in their courtrooms.  It is not the same thing at all.  

Having spent a work lifetime working in the legal field, I agree that there is more blue language flying around in their offices and chambers than in many other professions; however, NEVER in front of a client or in a courtroom.

Part of the reason for the strict rules in the courtroom is that the entire proceeding is being taped, videotaped, or stenographically recorded for appeals and posterity in general.

I don't know what those highlighted sentences mean.


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## Pepper (Jan 8, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I don't care how cultural it is  or whose culture it is or whether or not it is said with affection -- it is offensive and patronizing.


Just thinking about you Butterfly.  Was shopping in my neighborhood and this Jamaican woman in her mid-fifties calls me 'Mama'.  I'm NOT YOUR MAMA, I say.  Well.  She goes NUTS and starts screaming at me that *I* am being disrespectful and in her culture saying 'Mama' to a person such as me is being respectful. She goes on and on, then walks off, telling people how rude I am.  I'm lucky she didn't punch me out. Judging by when I got my first period, there is no way I could have been her mama.  So, when a sweet young man says it, it doesn't bother me.  Butterfly, this was my first encounter today.  I'm sick to my stomach.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 8, 2020)

I would say 'young man' or 'young lady' if I was telling someone off....because there is something demeaning about it.


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## Butterfly (Jan 9, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Just thinking about you Butterfly.  Was shopping in my neighborhood and this Jamaican woman in her mid-fifties calls me 'Mama'.  I'm NOT YOUR MAMA, I say.  Well.  She goes NUTS and starts screaming at me that *I* am being disrespectful and in her culture saying 'Mama' to a person such as me is being respectful. She goes on and on, then walks off, telling people how rude I am.  I'm lucky she didn't punch me out. Judging by when I got my first period, there is no way I could have been her mama.  So, when a sweet young man says it, it doesn't bother me.  Butterfly, this was my first encounter today.  I'm sick to my stomach.



I'm sorry this happened to you.  How upsetting!

Isn't it funny that people expect you to know and understand what may or may not be respectful in THEIR culture, but cannot be bothered to figure out what is or is not respectful in YOUR culture?


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## Butterfly (Jan 9, 2020)

Speaking of forms of address . . . back in the early 80s, I was working for an attorney who had been practicing for 50-some-oddyears and was a stodgy dyed-in-the-wool southern gentleman.  He really had a hard time coping with the new "Ms." form of address for women.  I remember him saying "You're either Miss or Mrs., married or unmarried -- how in thunderation can there be a third choice?" He grudgingly got with the program, though, but he didn't like it one bit.


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## Linda (Jan 10, 2020)

I've been busy paying my bills online and trying to watch a movie so I really don't have the time to read every word of every post on this thread.  But I will say, I am 71 years old and if any man refers to me as "young lady", I might not say it, but I'm going to think to myself that the guy is an assh***.


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## JaniceM (Feb 19, 2020)

CrackerJack said:


> I resent being asked if I mind being called by my Forename. I say no please use my Mrs xxxxx and they do of course. Maybe I'm old fashioned



Well, if you're old-fashioned, then so am I.  I was brought up to address individuals as Mr./Mrs., and still have difficulty with the more casual approach.  Old-fashioned or not, courtesy is not a bad thing!!


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## JaniceM (Feb 19, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I don't care how cultural it is  or whose culture it is or whether or not it is said with affection -- it is offensive and patronizing.


And so is the "trend" of addressing total strangers as honey, sweetie, sweetheart, etc. 
At first I thought it was just another local oddity, but noticed people complaining about it all over the www since around a decade ago.  I understand these terms are common in the South, but this isn't the South.  I went as far as to stop shopping at one local store because I was continuously getting this from teenage and young-adult cashiers.


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## Gaer (Feb 19, 2020)

I call every lady "Miss"; it doesn't matter if she's 20 years old or 98 years old.  Too many ladies are offended by "Ma-am" , especially if it's said in a derogatory way or if they even percieve it as such.  If you call them "Miss", they usually smile at you!


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## Autumn72 (Apr 19, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I guess it's akin to being call old man or old woman and depends on the tone and nonverbal aspects in which it's delivered.


i feel it's about that generation where everyone was closer as in family


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## Autumn72 (Apr 19, 2020)

Ferocious said:


> *I am astonished to hear that some of the lovely 'young ladies' on SF are upset about being referred to as 'Young Ladies'. I have called some of the young ladies hereabouts 'Young Lady, with the friendliest intention and tone, with no sarcasm or condescending meaning whatsoever. All my life there were some females known as 'tramps' because of their no so nice lifestyle, but decent, nice females were referred to as 'ladies', and, considering the vast amounts of money that some females spend attempting to look like young ladies, I would have thought that if an older gent such as I politely called them, 'Young Lady', then the young lady would take the remark as a compliment, so, I suppose there is no pleasing some young ladies, but hopefully the majority of young ladies reading this will know that I hold young ladies in high regard......
> OK, 'Young Lady'? ☺*


Yes I agree back on the old days it was a compliment. Yet some angry person used it as a way to disipline


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 21, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> True story, just happened. I was strolling home from the corner pub after having a pint or two. A young gentleman approached from the opposite direction walking his dog,  as we crossed paths he said, "Good evening sir." I looked around for my father, but he was no where to be seen. We spoke for a few minutes about his dog. When we parted company he said, "Have a great evening sir."
> 
> Very polite, but it still gave me the impression that he thought "I" was an old geezer. How could that be?


Well shut my mouth and call me old-fashioned.  I promise to _try_ and stop saying that!


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## Camper6 (Apr 23, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> It just seems to have the tone of 'scolding'   for some reason ...


Of course. I just bristle when someone says 'now listen young man' but maybe should have said young voice instead of young lady?


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## Camper6 (Apr 23, 2020)

StarSong said:


> "Young lady" is both condescending AND patronizing.  The correct form of address would be Miss (for a young girl or teen), Ma'am for an adult or the person's name with the appropriate salutation.  How would you have felt if she replied, "Well, I'm not sure, Old Man, let me try to recall what happened that day."
> 
> I'm rarely a stickler for these kinds of things, but remember when I was in my late 40s and making a deposit at the bank branch I'd used for years. There was a new, very young teller who asked for my ID, then a second ID, both of which she scrutinized closely before proceeding with my transaction. At the end of the transaction she breezily said, "Thank you, StarSong," having gleaned my first name during the transaction.
> 
> ...


I would never call anyone Ma'am because that stands for Madam .


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## win231 (Apr 23, 2020)

When I was 16, I got a ticket for getting into a left-turn lane before the painted opening.  Back then, a judge could suspend a kid's driver's license for 2 weeks for a simple violation.  And an appearance was required; couldn't just pay a fine.
I was already mad when I had to sit in the courtroom & wait for 20 other cases to be heard.
I could tell the judge didn't like my shoulder-length hair & he asked me in an unfriendly voice: "Son, have you even been up before me?"
I said, "I don't know, sir.  What time do you get up?"

The people in the courtroom started chuckling & the judge yelled, "Order."  He took lots of pleasure in saying, "I am suspending your license for 14 days & I don't want to see you again."
I was tempted to say, "Neither do I," but I didn't.


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