# US accuses Israel of spying on Iran nuclear talks



## Jackie22 (Mar 24, 2015)

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]US accuses Israel of spying on Iran nuclear talks [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The US has accused Israel of spying on international negotiations over Iran’s nuclear programme [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and using the intelligence gathered to persuade Congress to undermine the talks, according to a report on Tuesday. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Wall Street Journal cited senior administration officials as saying the Israeli espionage operation began soon after the US opened up a secret channel of communications with Tehran in 2012, aimed at resolving the decade-long standoff over Iran’s nuclear aspirations. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The apparent decision by the White House to leak the allegations is the latest symptom of the growing gulf between Barack Obama’s administration and Binyamin Netanyahu’s government over the Iran talks, in which the Israeli leader suspects US officials of being ready to make too many concessions at the expense of Israeli security. Intelligence analysts suggested that the leak reflects the degree of anger in Washington at Netanyahu’s actions, and could mark a more serious blow to the already tottering relationship. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The leak has come exactly a week before a deadline for the US-Iranian negotiations in Lausanne to produce a framework agreement. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The rest: [/FONT]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/24/israel-spied-on-us-over-iran-nuclear-talks?CMP=ema_565


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The President has called a news conference for today, probably about this.[/FONT]*


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't think the problem is so much the spying... heck everyone spies on everyone else..   BUT revealing the gathered intelligence to Congress and who knows who else in order to sway the outcome and to influence is beyond the pale.    There will certainly be a price for this..


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## Davey Jones (Mar 24, 2015)

re:US accuses Israel of spying on Iran nuclear talks.

Does anybody really give a damn,I don't.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm in favor of anything that makes Netanyahu look like the A$$ he is., and his boyfriend Boehner look like a schmuck.


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## Josiah (Mar 24, 2015)

I think Secretary Kerry and President Obama are trying their level best to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. I use to think that the Republicans also felt this way, that is until they decided that a treaty would be viewed as a successful part of Obama's legacy, then suddenly they were against it. Why Israel is against it baffles me. I guess they want to goad us into fighting a war with Iran. Oh and for what it matters, I give a damn.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

Well, you know what they say.. anything Obama is for, they are against.   I just wish that Obama would come out in favor of breathing.


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## Jackie22 (Mar 24, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I think Secretary Kerry and President Obama are trying their level best to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons. I use to think that the Republicans also felt this way, that is until they decided that a treaty would be viewed as a successful part of Obama's legacy, then suddenly they were against it. Why Israel is against it baffles me. I guess they want to goad us into fighting a war with Iran. Oh and for what it matters, I give a damn.



Nicely put, Josiah, no matter if its this nuclear deal, health care or measures to help the economy, Republicans will fight anything President Obama tries to accomplish.....as QS said that would make him look good and they can not have that no matter the outcome for the people in this country....


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Nicely put, Josiah, no matter if its this nuclear deal, health care or measures to help the economy, Republicans will fight anything President Obama tries to accomplish.....as QS said that would make him look good and they can not have that no matter the outcome for the people in this country....



You have to really wonder about the pathology of it all.   The hatred of this President is greater than the desire for this country to survive..  It's really got to be a mental illness.


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## Debby (Mar 24, 2015)

Mass mental illness?  What's in your water?  Actually that wouldn't work would it because it would have to be person specific.  Okay, how about a genetic anomaly that has a 'combo-gene' that causes the individual to go crazy as they are mentally compelled to become politicians?  Do you think?  Maybe someone should develop a test for the markers and whichever children are 'doomed' to become crazy politicians can be locked up before they affect society.  Pre-emptive strike......wasn't there a science fiction crime thriller with Tom Cruise in it that was sort of like that?


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## AZ Jim (Mar 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm in favor of anything that makes Netanyahu look like the A$$ he is., and his boyfriend Boehner look like a schmuck.



Then you're home free on both counts.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 24, 2015)

Debby said:


> Mass mental illness?  What's in your water?  Actually that wouldn't work would it because it would have to be person specific.  Okay, how about a genetic anomaly that has a 'combo-gene' that causes the individual to go crazy as they are mentally compelled to become politicians?  Do you think?  Maybe someone should develop a test for the markers and whichever children are 'doomed' to become crazy politicians can be locked up before they affect society.  Pre-emptive strike......wasn't there a science fiction crime thriller with Tom Cruise in it that was sort of like that?



Problem.  We have had some great politicians.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

Here's a question for everyone.  IF Israel WAS spying on the USA..  and told the US congress what it learned in order to undermine the ongoing negotions.  AND the Republicans did not tell the Administration about it... which apparently they didn't..    What is that called?  Doesn't that cause their national loyalty to be questioned?  If the Letter to Iran did not trigger a Justice department investigation. perhaps this is should.


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## Josiah (Mar 24, 2015)

Treason?


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## Debby (Mar 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Problem.  We have had some great politicians.




Well then a couple of must have been the exception to the rule .


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

Never found a bash she didn't like...  DO you have an alarm go off to alert you when you can jump in and throw a dig at the US?


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## BobF (Mar 24, 2015)

Nobody needs an alarm at all.   Just listen to all the lefties braying into the wind and you hear lots of noise but nothing of value.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

BobF said:


> Nobody needs an alarm at all.   Just listen to all the lefties braying into the wind and you hear lots of noise but nothing of value.



So I take it you approve of what Netanyahu has done... and approve of Republicans not telling the Administration they were being spied on by a foreign power?


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## BobF (Mar 24, 2015)

First is that you must prove to the Republicans that the Jewish had been snooping on the US.

Not sure at all that any of that talk was true.

http://www.jta.org/2015/03/24/news-...ny-report-that-israel-spied-on-u-s-iran-talks

 									 										News Brief 									
 									[h=1]Israeli officials deny report that Israel spied on U.S.-Iran talks[/h] 																	 								 									March 24, 2015 8:44am


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## Debby (Mar 24, 2015)

As I was reading through the comments there was a nagging tickle in my brain that I'd heard something that paralleled this situation and after doing a bit of bookmark browsing, I finally remembered and it was the following story in the Wall Street Journal:

By MATTHEW KARNITSCHNIG

Updated Feb. 9, 2014 4:17 p.m. ET
'BERLIN—A furor in Europe over new reports of National Security Agency surveillance is undermining U.S. efforts to move beyond the affair and has thrown plans for a trans-Atlantic trade agreement into question just weeks before talks are scheduled to resume.......Officials on both sides of the Atlantic say privately the NSA spying dispute in particular is weighing heavily on the already complicated negotiations over a trans-Atlantic trade deal, known officially as the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, or TTIP....'
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303874504579372832399168684

Sounds a little like 'the pot calling the kettle black'.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 24, 2015)

As I said... everyone spies on everyone... That is not the problem..   The problem is that the Republicans in the US Congress KNEW Israel was spying on the negotiations.. and did not tell the Administration about it... leaving in question where their loyalty lies..  with the USA or with a foreign country..


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## BobF (Mar 24, 2015)

You still have not read the article I posted for all to read.   In the article it says Israel got its information from other sources and not from US direct.   You just love to bash the Republicans for some reason even when there is no reason to do so.  Try reading the article I posted above and see what I am talking about.   It is not a long read.

*Israeli officials told The Wall Street Journal that the country’s  intelligence services did not spy directly on the American negotiators,  but rather that they found the information through surveillance of Iran  and other world powers involved in the negotiations, as well as from  some of the world powers themselves.*


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

Oh. Of course Bob...  "Israel TOLD the WSJ it didn't spy"   Well...  there ya go...  It's settled!  lol!!


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm kind of in agreement with QuickSilver Bob.  If the Republicans knew 'their own country's negotiations' were being spied on through whatever means and did nothing to tell the 'White House' that it was happening, they failed the country. 

And you're right QS that everyone spies on everyone else, but it does seem to me that if I call you friend and you likewise call me friend, you have a moral obligation to have my back or at least respect my sovereignty and not spy on me and vice versa.  Seems to me that the USA has exhibited a lapse in judgement in that regard when it comes to the spying the administration has done on 'friends'.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

Debby said:


> I'm kind of in agreement with QuickSilver Bob.  If the Republicans knew 'their own country's negotiations' were being spied on through whatever means and did nothing to tell the 'White House' that it was happening, they failed the country.
> 
> And you're right QS that everyone spies on everyone else, but it does seem to me that if I call you friend and you likewise call me friend, you have a moral obligation to have my back or at least respect my sovereignty and not spy on me and vice versa.  Seems to me that the USA has exhibited a lapse in judgement in that regard when it comes to the spying the administration has done on 'friends'.



As apparently has every other nation... It is very easy to want to equate Nations as being people..  They are not.. A nation exists for the benefit and welfare of itself..  It is not fair to say that the USA is somehow morally deficient in this respect when it goes on all over the world.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

As you folks seem to think, I see nothing wrong with what Israel said about how they got the information.  If you two just hate the Republicans so badly, that is your problem, not mine.   The current government has really gotten the US into some very bad situations.   Lucky we only have another year and a half with what we have.   Then  maybe we will have a decent Democrat or Republican government to replace this current way far far far left government we have today.

Either party and what we need is a President that will listen to the Congress and allow the people to decide how the government should run.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

BobF said:


> As you folks seem to think, I see nothing wrong with what Israel said about how they got the information.  If you two just hate the Republicans so badly, that is your problem, not mine.   The current government has really gotten the US into some very bad situations.   Lucky we only have another year and a half with what we have.   Then  maybe we will have a decent Democrat or Republican government to replace this current way far far far left government we have today.
> 
> Either party and what we need is a President that will listen to the Congress and allow the people to decide how the government should run.



Except we already DID.... we elected President Obama TWICE by a large majority...  Why is that always ignored by Republicans..   As for me hating Republicans... If I do, then you certainly are a prime example of why..  So totally eaten up with Obama Derangement Syndrome you are irrational, as most in Congress are.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Obama's wins were not that big as you claim them to be.   And his second was less than his first, as he was losing the Congress more and more to the Republicans.   If he acted like a President should be acting he would be listening to the Congress more and less of his own mistaken ways be getting imposed.   It will be nice to once again have a real Democrat back in the Presidents seat who will allow the Congress to have a say about how this country should be run.   We do not have that now and have not had that for over 6 years now.   Congress is where the government is supposed to be run from, not the Presidents ideas only without using the Congress.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

Thanks.... for proving my point.  lol!!


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Thanks.... for proving my point.  lol!!



I never proved that Obama has led us well at all.   We are living in a growing disaster by his own hand.    We need s real Democrat or Republican to try to pull this country back to the people where it should be.   No more of these dictator types of governments for the US.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

NO bob...  For proving the point that you have Obama Derangement Syndrome.... and have become blinded by irrational hatred..  The one note tone of ALL your posts proves that you are incapable of discussing any political situation without injecting this pathology.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Talk about someone not thinking, best talk about the one in the mirror you see.   Obama has failed to lead this country by the Constitution ways, therefore he is wrong.   Even many Democrats have seen this problem and will go against Obama when they can.   Big problem with Obama is that he does not take things to the Congress, he does his thing through his self arranged groups and committees he has had set up.   The big problem for the US is trying to get rid of his personal style of government and get back to allowing the Congress to make the working solutions as they should.   That can happen with a real Democrat party or Republican party helping to lead this country.   Further on would be if most of the people would vote independent and no longer allow Republican or Democrat party lead this country.   As it was originally planned to be run.    Representatives from districts and states.   No more of these political groups of minority membership, 30% or less for both the Democrats or Republicans, leading this country as is being done in recent years.   You may think minority leadership is OK.   But a lot of the people in the US do not.   It should go back to the way this country was designed.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

blah blah blah Obama blah blah blah constitution blah blah Lefties blah blah Obama  blah blah blah.   Always the same song with you.  

By the way...  Minority leadership was just okie dokie when Republicans were in the minority...  right?


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> blah blah blah Obama blah blah blah constitution blah blah Lefties blah blah Obama  blah blah blah.   Always the same song with you.
> 
> By the way...  Minority leadership was just okie dokie when Republicans were in the minority...  right?



Always the same song with me, likely because it is so true.

Republicans only had minority leadership by name.    As long as the Democrats held the Senate, nothing got done at all.

For you, it is always the same song as well.   You are stuck outside the Constitution and unwilling to re enter the Constitution for continuing our government the way it was designed to be run, by the Congress.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> As apparently has every other nation... It is very easy to want to equate Nations as being people..  They are not.. A nation exists for the benefit and welfare of itself..  It is not fair to say that the USA is somehow morally deficient in this respect when it goes on all over the world.




Getting caught up in semantics doesn't change the fact that a country that calls another country 'friend' disrespected them and spied on that country's leaders personal phone (and whatever else they got caught doing in this regard).    And believe me, I'm not pointing only at the USA in this regard.  Have you ever heard of the Five Eyes Intelligence Community?  It is a coalition of five countries, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the USA who have an agreement to share any information that they get via 'spying'.  So these guys are working together, they are 'friends' and yet it has been shown that this group doesn't answer to the known laws of it's own countries and that they are all spying on one anthers citizens and sharing that info in order to get around any and all domestic regulations on domestic spying.  Canada is just as guilty, as is ! 

In the case I noted previously, the USA was found to have been spying on the other participants in the discussion on a trade deal so my point is, that they really have no right to bitch and complain because they are not innocent themselves.  And take note, I said 'they' as in the Administration, not you as in it's you personally who are to blame.....and I brought up without waiting for you to bring it up that Canada is equally culpable of bad acts in this regard.  I've said it before, I'll say it again, governments are corrupt and they are using all of us little peons to play games of power and wealth.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

Debby said:


> Getting caught up in semantics doesn't change the fact that a country that calls another country 'friend' disrespected them and spied on that country's leaders personal phone (and whatever else they got caught doing in this regard).    And believe me, I'm not pointing only at the USA in this regard.  Have you ever heard of the Five Eyes Intelligence Community?  It is a coalition of five countries, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the USA who have an agreement to share any information that they get via 'spying'.  So these guys are working together, they are 'friends' and yet it has been shown that this group doesn't answer to the known laws of it's own countries and that they are all spying on one anthers citizens and sharing that info in order to get around any and all domestic regulations on domestic spying.  Canada is just as guilty, as is !
> 
> In the case I noted previously, the USA was found to have been spying on the other participants in the discussion on a trade deal so my point is, that they really have no right to bitch and complain because they are not innocent themselves.  And take note, I said 'they' as in the Administration, not you as in it's you personally who are to blame.....and I brought up without waiting for you to bring it up that Canada is equally culpable of bad acts in this regard.  I've said it before, I'll say it again, governments are corrupt and they are using all of us little peons to play games of power and wealth.



So your point?   You are SOOOO caught up in this USA is a big bad ole nasty meanie mantra.. ..  that you again miss the point I was trying to make.  You and Bob need to get your "one note" posts in harmony... that at least might make for pleasant listening.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Well, in a way I agree with our Canadian friend.   Until the US gets past this very far left government we have now, we are not a friendly nation that we were before.   Obama has let the US down in many ways and has spent us into a long term poverty.   We had helped some Arab folks along toward real freedom and Obama pulled our influence away.   Now they all are living in fear of a very terrible type of government.   One that demands and if not followed, off with your head.   Leadership by fear.   Not a good government for anyone, Arab or otherwise.

Less than two years to go and then hopefully we will have a good government that will operate as the Constitution say our government should run.


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## Davey Jones (Mar 25, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Well, you know what they say.. anything Obama is for, they are against.   I just wish that Obama would come out in favor of breathing.



Im holding my breath for that one.(g)


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## QuickSilver (Mar 25, 2015)

:banghead:   because it feels so good when I stop!   :laugh:


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## Josiah (Mar 25, 2015)

The Obama team’s best argument for doing this deal with Iran is that, in time, it could be “transformational.” That is, the ending of sanctions could open Iran to the world and bring in enough fresh air — Iran has been deliberately isolated since 1979 by its ayatollahs and Revolutionary Guard Corps — to gradually move Iran from being a revolutionary state to a normal one, and one less inclined to threaten Israel. If one assumes that Iran already has the know-how and tools to build a nuclear weapon, changing the character of its regime is the only way it becomes less threatening.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

Sorry Bob, you and I are on different pages.  The past 25 years has seen the US embark on numerous offensives in countries around the world.  There have been Democratic and Republican governments by turn in those 25 years.  Bush's bunch insisted that Iraq was going to launch WMD any day and look how that turned out.   Somebody shared a graphic that showed up on my FB timeline and while I can't seem to figure out how to link it, here's the text:

OMG, Saddam Hussein killed 50,000 Iraqi's.  We must go in there and stop him.  (attributed to George Bush whose photo appears there)

So we went in there and killed 200,000 Iraqi's
5,000 dead Americans
1,000,000 injured Americans
Now we owe $6 trill and Cheney made $39 trill.
ISIS wants to kill us
GOP:  It's all Obama's fault
GOP:  Let's do it all again.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Many of those trips to war were at the call of the UN to help others gain safety and freedom.   Not at all sure about your numbers you quoted, some seem OK and others are way out of line for Iraq operations.   Especially those numbers of Iraqi killed.  Those killed were not because of the UN forces in there at all.   The Iraqi folks were split between the Sunni and Shiite types busy killing each other.   Not because of any US, or English, or other nations sharing the job of keeping the people safe and helping them to get food, medical, housing, in spite of the often created war times from themselves against themselves.

None of us should have left when we did if we wanted peace to evenutually take hold down there.    Look what the governments did for Europe after WWII.   We kept plenty of troops in place and helped hold the peace until the new governments  had time to take hold and maintain themselves.   Peace in Europe has held for many more years than any time prior.   Wars in Europe for centuries, one after another, till after WWII.   Peace held as the countries like US, England, and other countries held troops in Europe and especially in Berlin area where Russia had threatened to take over.   Our combined military's held the line and slowly peace kind of soaked in to the mind set.   That is what should have happened to the Iraq situation.   Not just hit and run, the old way of pretending to win but losing in the long term.

We still keep troops in Korea to help hold the truce line.    We kept troops in Japan for many years after WWII.   Peace is hard to win and ending hostilities is not peace itself.    Peace only comes after years of being occupied and the ideas of peace can be taught to those who have traditionally carried hate for each other.    A spell of peace helps people to learn they can live together.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

Here is a list* of the countries bombed by the United States since the end of the Second World War:  http://www.maurer.ca/USBombing.html
Afghanistan 1998, 2001- 
Bosnia 1994, 1995 
Cambodia 1969-70 
China 1945-46 
Congo 1964 
Cuba 1959-1961 
El Salvador 1980s 
Korea 1950-53
Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69
Indonesia 1958Laos 1964-73
Grenada 1983 
Iraq 1991-2000s 
Iran 1987
Korea 1950-53 
Kuwait 1991 
Lebanon 1983, 1984
Libya 1986, 2011 
Nicaragua 1980s
Pakistan 2003, 2006-Palestine 2010 
Panama 1989 
Peru 1965 
Somalia 1993, 2007-08, 2010- 
Sudan 1998 
Syria 2014
Vietnam 1961-73 
Yemen 2002, 2009- 
Yugoslavia 1999
Note that these countries represent roughly one-third of the people on earth.


And here we have the complete list of which parties were in power at the time:  http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm



_Updated 5 January 2009_

YearCongressPresidentSenate (100)House (435)2009111thDD - 55***D - 2562007110thRD - 51**D - 2332005109thRR - 55R - 2322003108thRR - 51R - 2292001107thRD*R - 2211999106thDR - 55R - 2231997105thDR - 55R - 2281995104thDR - 52R - 2301993103rdDD - 57D - 2581991102ndRD - 56D - 2671989101stRD - 55D - 2601987100thRD - 55D - 258198599thRR - 53D - 253198398thRR - 54D - 269198197thRR - 53D - 242197996thDD - 58D - 277197795thDD - 61D - 292197594thRD - 60D -291197393rdRD - 56D - 242197192ndRD - 54D - 255196991stRD - 57D - 243196790thDD - 64D - 247196589thDD - 68D - 295196388thDD - 66D - 259196187thDD - 64D - 263195986thRD - 65D -283195785thRD - 49D - 232195584thRD - 48D - 232195383rdRR - 48D - 221195182ndDD - 49D - 235194981stDD - 54D - 263194780thDR - 51R - 246194579thDD - 57D - 242

*
Yellow years mark Presidential inauguration.


*
Because I'm babysitting at my daughter's house and I have nothing else to do while the kids are playing a video game,  I went through the list and checked which 'party' was in the oval office at the time and here's how it looks:




Afgh.        1998, 2001          D, R
Bosnia        1994, 1995        D
Cambodia      1969-70            R
China          1945-46            D
Congo           1964                 D
Cuba           1959-1961            R
El Salvador    1980’s            R
Korea        1950-53            D/R
Guatemala    1954,60, 1967-69    R/D/D/R
Indonesia        1958            R
Laos            1964-73            D/R
Grenada        1983            R
Iraq            1991-2000’s        R/D/R
Iran            1987            R
Korea        1950-53            D/R
Kuwait        1991            R
Lebanon        1983-84            R
Libya        1986, 2001,2009    R/R/D
Nicaragua    1980            D/R
Pakistan        2003, 2006…        R/R/D
Panama        1989            R
Peru            1965            D
Somalia        1993, 2007-08,2010    D/R/D
Sudan        1998            D
Syria        2014            D
Vietnam        1961-73            D/R
Yemen        2002,2009-        R/D
Yugoslavia    1999            D            

So it looks like both parties have been busy not being friendly.  Years since WW2 that the US has been bombing somewhere:  1945,46,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,80-89,90-2009, etc.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Your words are a bit exaggerated to say the least.   No way has the US bombed all those countries as you said.

Nor have you pointed out which efforts were solely US activated.   How many were related to joint efforts or UN efforts.   How many of those actions were actually wars and not just police actions or defensive actions.   You are really twisted and incomplete with this post.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

BobF said:


> Many of those trips to war were at the call of the UN to help others gain safety and freedom.   Not at all sure about your numbers you quoted, some seem OK and others are way out of line for Iraq operations.   Especially those numbers of Iraqi killed.  Those killed were not because of the UN forces in there at all.   The Iraqi folks were split between the Sunni and Shiite types busy killing each other.   Not because of any US, or English, or other nations sharing the job of keeping the people safe and helping them to get food, medical, housing, in spite of the often created war times from themselves against themselves.
> 
> None of us should have left when we did if we wanted peace to evenutually take hold down there.    Look what the governments did for Europe after WWII.   We kept plenty of troops in place and helped hold the peace until the new governments  had time to take hold and maintain themselves.   Peace in Europe has held for many more years than any time prior.   Wars in Europe for centuries, one after another, till after WWII.   Peace held as the countries like US, England, and other countries held troops in Europe and especially in Berlin area where Russia had threatened to take over.   Our combined military's held the line and slowly peace kind of soaked in to the mind set.   That is what should have happened to the Iraq situation.   Not just hit and run, the old way of pretending to win but losing in the long term.
> 
> We still keep troops in Korea to help hold the truce line.    We kept troops in Japan for many years after WWII.   Peace is hard to win and ending hostilities is not peace itself.    Peace only comes after years of being occupied and the ideas of peace can be taught to those who have traditionally carried hate for each other.    A spell of peace helps people to learn they can live together.




http://www.informationclearinghouse.info 

That site also gives 'numbers' with reference to Iraq.  And sure, there might be a few too many or maybe not even all that should be there, but when all is said and done, they're dead or injured and it's neither here nor there whether they were Sunni or Shiite.  The point is that if the US wasn't there, had stayed home, this discussion wouldn't even be going on.  

And seriously, if you still think this was all about 'spreading democracy' then you have swallowed the Kool-ade.  If Saddam Hussein hadn't been trying to bypass the dollar and sell his oil, accepting euros instead, I seriously doubt if America would have fomented the lie of WMD.  Same with Gaddafi.  If he hadn't been planning on selling his oil and bypassing the American dollar and accepting gold instead, America wouldn't have bothered.  This is strictly about control and power of position.  Hit and run isn't exactly what I would call ten years in Iraq.  

America brought down the Soviet Union via oil price manipulation, was happy to 'aid' Russia when they were facing food lines and empty shelves but as Russia became stronger and began to stand on their own two feet and opt for their own sovereignty,  the animosity towards that nation resurfaced and has now bubbled over again.  And in part the fact that Russia is moving away from the use of the American dollar has only added fuel to the fire.  If Russia had bowed to their 'saviour', none of this would be going on, NATO would be surrounding them and America would be continuing to rake in the power and finances that comes from being the holder of the reserve currency.  By means of that status and no gold standard, America can print money ad nauseum and to the detriment of the finances of your country.

According to http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/government-debt-to-gdp, Russia's debt to GDP in 2014 was 13.41.
According to http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-debt-to-gdp  America's debt to GDP in 2014 was 101.53

Russia has maintained a gold standard despite everything, they bought 55 tonnes of gold last year and they are either beginning to or planning to sell their oil for either rubbles or yuan.  Their overall financial picture is better than America's despite the USA having the worlds reserve currency.  If America were to loose that status, it would seriously impinge on your ability to borrow (budget crisis anyone?), your ability to continue printing money, to maintain your standard of living, support an enormous military......

Interesting note here, came across this article:  http://rt.com/business/243129-russian-economy-markets-recovery/
that is saying the Russia is doing not so bad right now economically and it has a short commentary by your own economist Dr. Paul Craig Roberts.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

BobF said:


> Your words are a bit exaggerated to say the least.   No way has the US bombed all those countries as you said.
> 
> Nor have you pointed out which efforts were solely US activated.   How many were related to joint efforts or UN efforts.   How many of those actions were actually wars and not just police actions or defensive actions.   You are really twisted and incomplete with this post.




You're right, I haven't had time to go through all of them to figure out if the US instigated solely for the purpose of their own agenda or at the behest of the UN.  However, having watched lately how the American administration has strong armed various EU countries into going along with them and having done some reading on some of those instances, I have no doubt that while some 'decisions' may have come through the UN, many of them were 'suggested and pushed for' by the US.  Let us not forget how many years the Americans supported the murderous Khmer Rouge seats in the UN despite their bloody record of murder so suggesting that the US couldn't pressure anyone is ignoring obvious and historical facts.

France had a contract with Russia to build two Mistral warships that were supposed to be delivered in November 2014 and America pressured France to renege on that signed and paid for contract so now France is facing penalties and repayment totalling $3 bn.  And to top it off, several of your senators made the dubious(ridiculous) suggestion that NATO should buy those ships from France who in turn would have to pay that money to Russia for the penalties they owe for screwing the deal. France of course only reneged because of pressure from America to turn their back on a signed and paid for contract.  http://www.globalresearch.ca/france...to-russia-president-francois-hollande/5416822

And personally, you can play with the words, war, police actions or whatever, the fact remains, that the USA has caused chaos across the globe but amazingly you people haven't had to suffer from any of it save burying your soldiers when they come home.  Everywhere else though, ruins, death and destruction.  In Hillary Clintons own words, 'we saw, we came, (they) died' spoken when Gaddafi was brutally slaughtered during an illegal conflict (I won't call it war so that should make you feel better).



And by the way, it wasn't me who compiled that list of countries that the US has bombed.  So your argument there is with somebody else on that score.  Why don't you satisfy your curiosity and Google them and see if they don't belong on that list.


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## BobF (Mar 25, 2015)

Well, not to please you, I have been reading some of that garbage you have posted.   Very little truth in some of them and others are much ado about nothing.   Many of them are truly UN efforts to try to bring justice to situations.  I guess you don't count that at all and just love to point the finger at the US.   Have a ball with that.   It is your privilege, as wrong as it may be in some cases.   You have just babbled on about all the evils but have no real proofs at all.   Most of what I find is from those peace type groups that bundle and bunch data so that it looks like those that have been trying to help others to stay free of communism are the bad ones.   But our histories show us over and over that it is the communist and far left socialist that are really keeping people from having real freedom.   Yes I am reading the list you posted and of the top 8, 5 are UN driven and the other three were 1. part of Vietnam war   2.  Not sure of any China war   I could not find a record of such.    3.  Not a war with Cuba as you seem to think.   There was an attack attempted by Cuban citizens, not a war by US declaration.

Your list of wars is not at all true all along the list.


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## Debby (Mar 25, 2015)

Your perspective, your opinion.  And everyone is entitled to one.  

I will say this, I was looking at a list of global conflicts in general and in black and white, America isn't the only country that has behaved badly.  I became interested in foreign affairs about two years ago as a result of reading about a Palestinian Knesset MP walk out on a speech by my Prime Minister.  Out of a desire to understand why, I began reading all sorts of reports (UN, humanitarian, their local papers, a couple history books and so on) and naturally because of America's support of what I now view as a violent and abusive government, I began taking note of the effect that your country has on the world.  

According to a poll done by Gallup International, the US is considered the largest threat to world peace today or at least that what was believed in 2013.  http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008    So I'm not the only one who is apprehensive about the heavy footprint of our country.


And now I read and I watch all sorts of credible information that isn't getting onto CNN and their sort or if it is, it's skewed, and about the Russian/European/Ukrainian situation and I'm amazed at how much manipulation of the truth is going on.  It's truly fascinating, like something out of a John Grisham novel or something.  So it's not really personal although maybe you feel as though it is.  I feel the same way sort of about my own government at this point except I think Harper is kind of a wannabe.  He wants to be the tough guy of a big country, but he's stuck with Canada so he struts and puffs.

I think if we could get over our pathological need to be defensive when somebody points out truths (like the US armed al Quaeda in Syria, or helped eliminate a democratic government in Ukraine, etc) and be honest about the failings of our governments and demand better, then we might have a chance of surviving the next 25 years.  The way it looks though is that your country's leaders are hell bent on pushing Russia until they feel they have to protect themselves from America's bellicosity and then WW3 begins.  And they've used Ukraine to do it in the hope that Russia will buckle and bow.  And I don't get the impression that that's the Russian way.

Anyway, it's really late and I'm off to bed.  Have a good night eh.  Been interesting.


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## BobF (Mar 26, 2015)

Interesting in your posted comments is that most of those folks that claimed the US was most dangerous also said the US was the first place they would like to move to if they could.   Middle east was where most said the US was bad?   Those folks say what they are told to say and little else where they live.

Your post does not say anything about why the US goes where they go with their military and fights for the UN in mass with other countries.   This article you are following does not speak well of the US but it also does does not show why the US does go where it goes and what it is often doing.   Working for the UN wishes as other countries are doing.

You seem to have a US HATE problem that to me is your problem and not going to be part of my problem.   One measure for the US that to me shows the level of loyalty in the US to our government is the fact that our military is filled by volunteers.   We have not had a draft in the US for many years now.   I volunteered, my son and daughter both volunteered, after completing college.   Many folks in the US do volunteer for what the country or UN decides to do.  

Live your life as you see fit and I hope the US continues to help itself, the UN, and other countries to live safer and with out fear of being over run by out of control governments.


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## drifter (Mar 26, 2015)

A freedom of speech thing, bashing the USA. We're still the proclaimed Number 1 super power, so that entitles us to some bashing. I did read somewhere else in one of the  national publications, was it a United Nations Report, the greatest danger to world peace is the United States, so a number of people worldwide hold that opinion and there is some validity to the report. A substantial number in the US Congress are what we refer dot as hawks (warmongers is another word for it) we have one of the largest military forces in the world and the military industrial complex which presumably would  include those hawks in Congress, provide   all the grownup military toys the military needs and wants. And those ideas produced in the Pentagon have to be tested somewhere, so what better place than a small war. We are a warlike nation and we demonstrate that over and over. So in addition to a freedom of speech thing, the writer might actually be right. Just saying.


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## BobF (Mar 26, 2015)

If that was in the UN report, I wonder why?   For many years now we are the major country answering the UN's cries for military help for this country or that country in various parts of the world.   I believe our first, and one of the biggest in cost of lives, was Korea.   Since then we have had many other goes for the UN's pleasure.   Maybe the US should just stop trying to bring peace to this world as the UN demands.   The US has never taken anything from those adventures in the form of adopted lands.   Nor has the US forced any type of government or religion on those lands we helped protect to the UN's pleasure.

We are not a war like nation for our pleasure, but we do often try to help other countries hold their way when attacked by others.   One place we should have intervened in was Cuba.   At first we allowed their revolution to take place but then in response. Cuba has rejected the US and had Russia come in and build rocket bases against the US.   Good old Jack Kennedy, Democrat, stood up to Cuba and Russia and as a result, Russia pulled its rockets and left Cuba to stand alone if wanting to attack the US.   There are times when the US does stand alone against possible threats to our way of life.    But more likely we will do UN types of work to protect countries from hateful dictators or attacks from outside.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 27, 2015)

US accuses Israel of spying on Iran talks then "releases" a secret study on the Israel nuclear program only redacting for NATO allies and not Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193175#.VRV7luGM6Xg


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## QuickSilver (Mar 27, 2015)

I think Netanyahu is beginning to pay the price for his stupidity..   More is sure to come.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think Netanyahu is beginning to pay the price for his stupidity..   More is sure to come.



Including releases or leaks of Israeli intelligence on the US. A small proxy war shooting top secret leaks of information instead of bullets.


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## Debby (Mar 27, 2015)

BobF said:


> Interesting in your posted comments is that most of those folks that claimed the US was most dangerous also said the US was the first place they would like to move to if they could.....
> Live your life as you see fit and I hope the US continues to help itself, the UN, and other countries to live safer and with out fear of being over run by out of control governments.





Phrasing is everything.  The poll said the majority think the US is the ‘greatest threat to world peace’, not 'the most dangerous’ and keeping in mind that a huge number of countries have- in the street' violence and property destruction and high unemployment rates, America looks like paradise by comparison.   And with the US pushing and goading Russia right now and with both countries having nuclear weapons, that 'greatest threat' could be sooner than you think.  There are certainly any number of experts, ex-military, ex-government and political journalists who have that same concern.


You want to know why the US goes to war?   Because it’s big money to people who lobby your government and for the sake of control.   United States Marine Corps Major General Smedley D. Butler got it right in his retirement speech in the 30’s when he titled it ‘War is a Racket’.  


There are ten companies listed on the following link that make billions from war and they spend hundreds of millions on lobbyists to approach politicians and they donate to election funds and there is a revolving door between lobbyists and politicians who all work to support the game that they are also invested in.   Where do you think those profits are going but straight into the pockets of shareholders who happen to be lobbyists/politicians!  Did you know that in the past 50 years, shares in the military industry have gone up 27,699% and that's compared to only 6,777% for the rest of the market!   They need for war to continue anywhere because it's the Golden Goose and their sons and daughters will be safe so they whisper and cajole and make bellicose statements and inspire fear and or greed.......And the war drums continue to pound. 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/blood-...ple-make-billions-of-dollars-from-war/5438657
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-so...-soaring-costs-of-military-casualties/5388393


No Bob, I don’t hate anybody, really I don’t.  But I do hate suffering, pain, greed, theft, destruction and the idea that people just like my family are being made to cower and hide from the bombs of the super wealthy who come with excuses is dreadful.  And by openly looking at that list of companies, complete with the millions and billions of dollars involved, if you were really honest you would see what you are really fighting for.  How many of the countries in that list a couple of posts back have actually come to your shores and bombed neighbourhoods?  And when I think of your own Major Wesley Clark admitting that in 1991, your Pentagon made the decision to destabilize the ME and then I think of the thousands who have suffered and died because of that decision, I can only wonder why the lesson of the Vietnam War didn’t sink in collectively.

And lest you think that I am picking on the USA only, I don't hold my own country sacred, nor any other.  If we screw up I'll be the first the declare the horror.  Like when the USA kidnapped a popular president from Haiti, Jean Paul Aristede, Canada played security guard in Haiti at the request of your country.  I'm not proud of that at all, nor am I proud of the fact that Canadian companies made a couple billion off supplying the chemicals and weapons and such for your use in the Vietnam War.  


Sometimes it is necessary to go to the aid of another, and when ANY country does that, it’s a good thing.  But when money and weapons go to terrorist or fascist organizations who’s sole interest is power and control at the expense of civilians (as in Ukraine), or when lies are told to achieve public support of others violence, or any number of other 'wrongs',  then the protestations of 'spreading democracy' become so thin as to be invisible.  

It's all about the money.


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## Debby (Mar 27, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> US accuses Israel of spying on Iran talks then "releases" a secret study on the Israel nuclear program only redacting for NATO allies and not Israel.
> 
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193175#.VRV7luGM6Xg




As if no one knew!  What is really frightening is that their 'new' technology (1980's) is apparently more powerful than a plain ole atom bomb.    Thanks for the link.


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## BobF (Mar 27, 2015)

Sorry, but you are so twisted in your thinking that we should all just sit around till those crazies of where ever just walk in and tell us to leave our homes or die on the spot.   I guess we should all just expect to live like they have had to in communist China, before the hard headed communist left and modern life and jobs appeared for them to live with and profit from.   Wonderful how our current government is letting all our efforts of many years, since WWII, go to waste and watch the killers of the Arab countries to take over and destroy all the efforts that the UN and the helpful countries had helped the natives to put in place, democracies of their design for better lives.

Just do not see where you think the countries of the world are wrong when they decide to fight for freedoms and the rights to live their ways without the killers being in charge.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 27, 2015)

*a sentence vs pages of information*



Debby said:


> As if no one knew!  What is really frightening is that their 'new' technology (1980's) is apparently more powerful than a plain ole atom bomb.    Thanks for the link.



There's a big difference in the sentence "Israel has the bomb" and a 386 page report that details the development of their nuclear program which includes the listing of facilities.

I'm sure most intelligence agencies knew this but again this could turn into a little proxy war with Israel releasing it's secret information on the US.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 27, 2015)

I believe Israel better think it over.....


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## WhatInThe (Mar 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I believe Israel better think it over.....



Other than current sensitive information if Israel decided to release something like Cold War information from the 1980s how could the US get upset to the point of action/reaction? Obama and Netanyahu are using PR departments and intelligence agencies for their spat. Hopefully both understand one upsmanship vs escalation.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 27, 2015)

The only thing the US need to do  to Israel is to STOP standing in the way of a UN resolution to insist on a two state solution to the Israeli/Palistinian problem.   This is what Israel fears... and the US with our veto power has stopped that from happening.......................................until  now..   Netanyahu better kiss some butt.


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## BobF (Mar 27, 2015)

Interesting comments here.   I did not know that the US was blocking any form of peace agreement in Israel or neighboring territories.   They were almost signed on different occasions and it was the coastal Palestinians under Iranian control that always caused the settlements to fail.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 27, 2015)

Number of Palestinians killed by Israelis reaches a 50 Year High.  http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/03/27/3640165/israel-palestine-accountability/





> Israel killed 2,314 Palestinians in 2014, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. That’s more than any year since 1967 when Israel defeated pro-Palestinian forces to wrest control of all of Jerusalem and other land then held by Arab countries.
> 
> Many of the deaths last year were a result of an Israeli military operation in the Palestinian-controlled Gaza Strip, which left at least 11,000 injured and 500,000 internally displaced.“Israel, the occupying power, must fulfill its primary obligations to protect the Palestinian civilian population, and ensure that people’s basic needs and human rights are met,” the U.N. stated in a report documenting Israeli treatment of Palestinians. “This would include taking action to secure the physical protection of Palestinian civilians, cease their displacement, ensure accountability for violence and abuse, and lift restrictions on the movement of people and goods, as well as on access to land and resources.”
> 
> ...


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## QuickSilver (Mar 28, 2015)

BobF said:


> Interesting comments here.   I did not know that the US was blocking any form of peace agreement in Israel or neighboring territories.   They were almost signed on different occasions and it was the coastal Palestinians under Iranian control that always caused the settlements to fail.



Yes.... because until recently, I guess we thought Israel was an allie.   Bibi and the Republicans stopped that silly thought..  Watch the US stop protecting them in the UN.   We have been using our veto power..  Like I said  Bibi made a big mistake. 

http://www.juancole.com/2015/03/resolutions-netanyahu-palestinian.html


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## BobF (Mar 28, 2015)

> Israel killed





> 2,314 Palestinians in 2014, according to the United Nations Office for  the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. That’s more than any year  since 1967 when Israel defeated pro-Palestinian forces to wrest control of all of Jerusalem and other land then held by Arab countries.
> 
> *Many of the deaths last year were a result of an Israeli military  operation in the Palestinian-controlled Gaza Strip, which left at least  11,000 injured and 500,000 internally displaced.**“Israel,  the occupying power, must fulfill its primary obligations to protect  the Palestinian civilian population, and ensure that people’s basic  needs and human rights are met,” the U.N. stated in a report documenting  Israeli treatment of Palestinians. “This would include taking action to  secure the physical protection of Palestinian civilians, cease their  displacement, ensure accountability for violence and abuse, and lift  restrictions on the movement of people and goods, as well as on access  to land and resources.” *




(So blame the Hamas and Iran for these nasty invasions and killings of Jewish.)

*



			Israeli  military officials have said that so Palestinian civilians were killed,  in part, because they were used as human shields by Hamas. Lt. Col.  Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said the bombing of a  U.N. school “a true tragedy” but that Palestinian forces hid munitions  in schools and hospitals.
		
Click to expand...

*


> The U.N.  maintained nonetheless that Israel violated international law, the  international organization isn’t very likely to hold Israel accountable  for its failures to protect — or even kill — Palestinian civilians. Even  if U.N. officials themselves are at the forefront of the call for  justice.
> 
> *“[W]e cannot  allow impunity, we cannot allow this lack of accountability to go on,”  Navi Pillay, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, said in July  after claiming that Israel’s attacks on homes, schools, and hospitals in  Gaza pointed appeared to be at odds with the rules of war outlined by  the Geneva Convention.*
> 
> ...




(Under Obama's direction?  True!)




> In a  remarkable shift to unwavering American support of Israel, President  Barack Obama said last week that he would “reassess” aspects of the  U.S.-Israeli relationship after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin  Netanyahu announced support for a one-state solution, and then walked  back that claim after he was re-elected. *Netanyahu’s controversial  speech before Congress further degraded his relationship with Obama.*


(So why was Obama so disinterested in hearing from Israels leader?    Made lots of folks wonder about Obama's actions.)




> That means  that recognition of a Palestinian state — and accountability from Israel  for human rights violations — may be closer than ever before. On  Friday, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius announced that they will  call for a resolution to recognize a Palestinian state in the coming  weeks.





> *“Today  nothing has moved forward, still development of settlements, the  Palestinians are in a more and more difficult situation and we cannot  stay like that,” he said. *




(Why is this so.   Certainly not because of Gaza's actions could it?    There has been no solidarity in that area due to Iran's support of Hamas in Gaza.  They are the reasons that nothing is getting done.   The inland section of Palestinians has not been causing death and destruction as the Gaza bunch (with Hamas and Iran helping) has been doing for years now.   Time to start putting the blame where it really belongs, not use political reasons.
..........................

These victims of Israels fight to end the rockets and car bombs came because the Hamas that had instructions and help from Iran to overwhelm the Gaza section.   This was happening in Obama's term, as well as previous Presidents.   Some really twisted logic flowing in these comments.   Nothing so confused as thinking all UN comments are without question and need be followed.   The UN is a largely political body and full of its own mistakes and personal types of decisions.   The UN is not an infallible unit to be treated as such.


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## Debby (Mar 28, 2015)

We mustn't ignore the fact that Israel has no interest in a peaceful solution if it includes sharing the land with Palestinian people and allowing the refugees to return.  It seems to me that if they truly did want peace, wherever there were pockets of peaceful folks living, the sensible thing to do would be to offer small rewards in the way of improved housing or water access or less IDF aggression, etc., by way of encouraging a growth in peace and security and that has never been the case.  In fact there are a couple of Palestinian areas where the folks take their safety into their own hands and actually hold peace marches weekly and they are invariably met with tear gas and rubber bullets.  Netanyahu was for once honest in that moment when he stated that he wouldn't allow a two state solution nor quit building settlements.

There are numerous reports of the horrible existence of the Palestinian people, written by both Jewish and other humanitarian groups (B'tselem and Red Cross to name two) as well as a report by the UN which focuses on the problems of both food and water deprivation for all Palestinian people.


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## BobF (Mar 28, 2015)

Israel has always allowed Palestinian folks to live in its lands in addition to allowing the Palestinian territories to be allowed to freely live.   It has been only those lands along the coast, Gaza, where the Hamas supported by Iran, have settled and completely taken over for the Palestinians living there originally.   No peace will be allowed as long as Iran is doing its thing about destroying Israel completely.   We really need to somehow get Iran to settle down and behave itself first, but that seems to be a near impossible thing to do.   I don't  believe it is all Palestinian people as some live directly in Israel and some in the Gaza district where most of the problem exist and others in West Bank area where not much has been happening like the fighting in the Gaza area.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 28, 2015)

The other side of the story?

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/dear-nick-kristof-your-palestinian-gandhis-are-already-here


http://electronicintifada.net/conte...raeli-palestinian-conflict-coverage-task/5037


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## BobF (Mar 28, 2015)

A big problem with this ongoing problem has been going on for many years now with different nations bringing on the promise of peace and shared lands and proper governments.   I believe it was Norway that twice brought the two sides to agreement, only to have it torn apart by the Palestinian leadership shortly after the meetings with Norway.   I believe it was the Palestinian leader who caused these failures to happen, twice.

Then we had a try by Pres Clinton as he had Palestinian and Jewish leaders to the US.    Once again we had wonderful news of agreements for peace between those two groups.   Once again we had the Palestinian leader break off the talks when back home.

Now we have Israel and Palestinian agreements for peace and separate governments, except this time it is Iran making the "destroy Israel" noises and stopping any real success for the Palestinians and Israel.   No success till Iran and the Hamas leave Gaza and allow the peace process to succeed.


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