# Guns- Putting it in perspective in my real world.



## Underock1 (Oct 3, 2015)

Not changing my anti-gun view a bit. What's going on here is a horror. If I was all powerful, I would wave my wand and make them all disappear. 
Just trying to give the non-US folk a view from my own experience. I, personally, in almost 83 years in the US, have never heard a shot fired in anger. Although I'm sure I must have met people who have had people in their lives murdered, no one I have ever known personally, nor any of my relatives has ever mentioned experiencing a gun incident of any kind.
My brother was into hunting responsibly for a few years, but I don't think he ever shot anything. I fired his rifles and pistols on a target range once with the whole family. That's about it.
I just want to clarify that bullets aren't flying everywhere in the US. It depends on where you live. I spent the first 35 years of my life in a working class neighborhood in the Bronx, and the rest in a NW NJ suburb. There are of course murders every day in the ghettos across the country. The real gun culture is in the rural and sub-rural areas, where giving your kids a gun and teaching them to hunt is a normal rite of passage.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 3, 2015)

The urban areas can be pretty sad too. There was a civil service group in Newark that made an announcement. They wanted everyone to support " Black Lives Matter" and just for one day no violence, no death. The first victim was at 9 am and the second at noon. Twenty four hours and they just couldn't do it...give them credit for trying.

I know about rural. When we lived in PA we were friendly with this preteen who helped in the family store. One day he was looking a bit tired. He said he was 14 and finally old enough to go out hunting deer with his Dad's friends. Putting a rifle in a fourteen year olds hands, I don't understand hunting anyways but taking a child is even worse.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 3, 2015)

I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger either Underock, and I am pro-gun.  We have guns in the house, and when we go camping in the wilderness, we take with us a pistol and a rifle.  We'll do some target practice, and have some protection if we need it against an aggressive animal or human.  Neither of us conceal carry.

  Neither of us are hunters, but we have a friend who is.  These shootings make headlines that stay in place for weeks on end, then every year the news media reviews the shooting over and over.  I really think this is making people even more fearful and paranoid.  I go out wherever I want to and am not afraid.

  Although I have a loaded gun at the ready in my home, in all my years I've never had to use it for self defense, but I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.  My sister's husband was a hunter, and had various guns in their home, they also had two children who were taught to respect them, never an incident at all.

  You're right about the real gun culture, for many years those in rural areas had guns for various reasons, their kids were taught how to use them, clean them safely and respect them.  My parents never had a gun in the house when I was growing up, we lived in the city.

  I believe the inner cities with the strictest gun laws have the most gun crime, because of the gangs and the criminals who blow each other away on a daily basis....don't hear much about them on the national news, not sensational enough.

  Most of these mass shootings are done by people who are mentally ill.  Many times they state their intentions on social media, but nobody learns to pay attention before the crime is committed.  The majority of them are on prescription drugs for anxiety, depression, etc., and those pharmaceuticals have side effects of wanting to commit homicide or suicide, another thing nobody pays attention to.  Instead they start young school kids on these mind altering medications for no valid reason at all.

 Many shootings take place in gun-free zones, but the latest college shooting wasn't technically gun-free.  But the security guard had nothing but a can of mace.  If these guards had weapons, many lives could be saved in each instance, but nobody pays attention.  What's going on here is a horror, but many components are ignored, just the gun itself is condemned, not the crazy hateful suicidal person using it.


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## imp (Oct 3, 2015)

*Murderous Mentality*

It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.

Does real life work that way?   imp


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2015)

imp said:


> It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.
> 
> Does real life work that way?   imp



Yes, imp, sometimes it does work that way. 
Not every homicide is premeditated and people do cool off.
But you are right in that people acting out of rage and hatred can and do use other weapons.

However, what is clear is that it is very hard to single handedly commit a massacre without a gun, especially one capable of rapid fire without reloading.


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## imp (Oct 3, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Yes, imp, sometimes it does work that way.
> Not every homicide is premeditated and people do cool off.
> But you are right in that people acting out of rage and hatred can and do use other weapons.
> 
> However, what is clear is that it is very hard to single handedly commit a massacre without a gun, especially one capable of rapid fire without reloading.



My point is that, unless clear and factual data be presented showing homicides committed, let's say, using other than a firearm as a lethal device, the mere presence of firearms does not cause murder.    imp


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## Shalimar (Oct 3, 2015)

Imp, straw man argument my friend.


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## Underock1 (Oct 3, 2015)

Thank you for your post, SeaBreeze, You contributed a lot towards the intent of my OP. I hope that together we have given a clearer picture of the reality of things for those looking at things from the outside.
I think its interesting that we are both pretty much describing the same picture from opposite positions with regard to the question.


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## imp (Oct 3, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Imp, straw man argument my friend.



Please, a more directly understandable rebuttal, if that is what it constitutes? I need substance beyond vacuous words.   imp


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## Underock1 (Oct 3, 2015)

imp, Do you really think there would be 9 dead and 9 wounded if the Oregon killer used a knife? He could have been fought off with three students swinging book bags! Is that enough substance?


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## Warrigal (Oct 3, 2015)

I think we should remember that all dangerous weapons need to be confiscated from dangerous people, not just guns, 
and it should be made very hard for them to be replaced.



> *Guns, axe, knife seized by ACT Policing from home in Red Hill in Canberra's south*
> 
> Posted      Sun 4 Oct 2015
> 
> ...



My question, what are replica shotguns and are they capable of being fired?


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## Butterfly (Oct 3, 2015)

imp said:


> It seems to be generally believed by the anti-gun following that an individual having murderous intent will NOT go ahead and commit the crime, if he/she is not in possession of a gun. Just forgets all about it, cools off, and life/lives are spared.
> 
> Does real life work that way?   imp



No, it doesn't.  They just go home and make bombs, like those kids  did at Columbine.  BTW, it still boggles my mind that those boys were making bombs in their garages, and the parents had no idea, or so they said.  If you are paying any attention at all, how can you not know your kids are making bombs in your garage??  And if you're not paying enough attention to know that, why in blazes not?


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## Underock1 (Oct 4, 2015)

I just checked it out Warri. Yes they are shootable. I presume there may be some that are not, but apparently its the re-enactor kind of thing. People interested in the old West, etc.


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

Imp, my words are not vacuous. I just don't believe that any argument I present will make the slightest bit of difference. In future, could we avoid personal remarks? After all we are friends.


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## Butterfly (Oct 4, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger either Underock, and I am pro-gun.  We have guns in the house, and when we go camping in the wilderness, we take with us a pistol and a rifle.  We'll do some target practice, and have some protection if we need it against an aggressive animal or human.  Neither of us conceal carry.
> 
> Neither of us are hunters, but we have a friend who is.  These shootings make headlines that stay in place for weeks on end, then every year the news media reviews the shooting over and over.  I really think this is making people even more fearful and paranoid.  I go out wherever I want to and am not afraid.
> 
> ...




I absolutely agree with all you said here.  I agree that though rural areas may have more of a "gun culture" in the sense of hunting and protection, the real problem is the cities where guns are used to "solve" the slightest of disagreements.  I grew up with guns and was taught at a very young age that they were not toys, but weapons that could kill, and that dead is forever.  I was also taught the proper use and handling of weapons and that mistakes or stupidity or showing off were inexcusable when it came to weapons. 

I was appalled when I worked as a paralegal in criminal appeals that most perpetrators saw nothing wrong in what they did.  "He looked at my girlfriend" was a common thing, and they really and truly didn't see a problem with shooting someone in response to that.   One guy killed three people in a car and crippled a third because they had driven onto his property and he said to me "What's the problem with that?  They came on my property."  It didn't matter at all to him that he shot at them when they were actually leaving his property, having evidently come onto it in error because they were lost.

 THAT's the biggest problem, not the gun itself, but that taking a life is seen as OK in response to a slight or an insult, or getting one's feelings hurt, or because you are pissed off at the world in general.  We don't seem to be teaching the value of life itself, or the idea that you're not always going to like what other people do, but that that's no excuse for taking a life, whether it be with a gun or a machete or a bomb, and that taking lives does not make you a big shot.

I keep a loaded weapon in my home, also, and always will.

I will now get off my soapbox.


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2015)

> THAT's the biggest problem, not the gun itself, but that taking a life is seen as OK in response to a slight or an insult, or getting one's feelings hurt, or because you are pissed off at the world in general.  We don't seem to be teaching the value of life itself, or the idea that you're not always going to like what other people do, but that that's no excuse for taking a life, whether it be with a gun or a machete or a bomb, and that taking lives does not make you a big shot.



Are you saying that the root cause is that "life is cheap" today? Is that the real problem?


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## chic (Oct 4, 2015)

Guns have been around for a few hundred years now, while these outrageous shootings of children and teachers in schools is much more recent - 20 years or so.  This problem is not with the weapon itself, which is an inanimate thing, but lies in the warped mind of the shooter as I see it. How to solve this problem to everyone's protection and satisfaction is beyond me at the moment.


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## Underock1 (Oct 4, 2015)

chic said:


> Guns have been around for a few hundred years now, while these outrageous shootings of children and teachers in schools is much more recent - 20 years or so.  This problem is not with the weapon itself, which is an inanimate thing, but lies in the warped mind of the shooter as I see it. How to solve this problem to everyone's protection and satisfaction is beyond me at the moment.



You are not alone.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 4, 2015)

I am anti-gun but will not debate it.  It's pointless as no one wins.  As far as I know, none of my family (in the US) owns a gun, although it's possible the sole right winger in the family might.  Never think about guns here in Scotland.  Not an issue.

I did have a gun stuck in my face in the US back in the 80's.  Drug addict or alcoholic obviously as the guy had very yellow eyes.  On our recent trip there were a couple of times when I was tempted to give an idiotic driver the finger when he made a really stupid move.  But nobody with any sense does that any more in the US due to possible road rage from a driver with a gun.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

I have experienced gun horror.   When my son was 10 years old he was shot in the face by another 10 year old who go ahold of his mother's loaded gun.     SO now you know someone who has been affected Underock..

Before anyone starts with the... it was the mother's fault not the gun... or the two littly boys faults... i warn you...  DO NOT GO THERE with me.. K?


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## Debby (Oct 4, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have never personally heard a shot fired in anger .......
> 
> I believe* the inner cities with the strictest gun laws* have the most gun crime, because of the gangs and the criminals who blow each other away on a daily basis....don't hear much about them on the national news, not sensational enough.
> 
> Most of these mass shootings are done by people who are mentally ill.........




What kind of gun laws do you have?  If your gun laws are so strict, why are mentally ill people getting them?

In Canada, the RCMP call my references  and question them in depth as to the kind of person I am and my state of mind if I apply for a gun license.  I have to go through a gun safety course over the course of a couple weekends before I can even apply for a license and I'm required to maintain a membership in a local gun club throughout my ownership of it.  And as far as I know, we don't have gun shows that 'unknowns' can easily go in and buy a gun the same day.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> What kind of gun laws do you have?  If your gun laws are so strict, why are mentally ill people getting them?
> 
> In Canada, the RCMP call my references  and question them in depth as to the kind of person I am and my state of mind if I apply for a gun license.  I have to go through a gun safety course over the course of a couple weekends before I can even apply for a license and I'm required to maintain a membership in a local gun club throughout my ownership of it.  And as far as I know, we don't have gun shows that 'unknowns' can easily go in and buy a gun the same day.



I believe that's what is being argued for.  Yes.. there are background checks...but NOT at gun shows and online purchases.. That is a loophole that needs to be closed and is being fought against.... 

 ALSO.... I believe that anyone who gives their gun to someone who commits a crime with it..or allows  someone access to their gun and they commit a crime should be prosecuted.    That means having guns in your house that your crazy nephew or son can get his hands on will cost you money or jail time.


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

2013. 131 people killed by firearms in Canada.


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## BobF (Oct 4, 2015)

Again I repeat that for some of these mental cases our courts will not allow this knowledge out to the gun registration folks.   It is against the law to do so.   That needs to be changed in some way so the knowledge can be used.   I think that issue was posted recently when saying the health information request was OK by they buyer, this being the buyers permission being mandatory, thus going around the legal restriction of medical research about a person being illegal.

Also agree with QuickSilver that these personal sales should also be required to have gun registration first.


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## Debby (Oct 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I believe that's what is being argued for.  Yes.. there are background checks...but NOT at gun shows and online purchases.. That is a loophole that needs to be closed and is being fought against....
> 
> ALSO.... I believe that anyone who gives their gun to someone who commits a crime with it..or allows  someone access to their gun and they commit a crime should be prosecuted.    That means having guns in your house that your crazy nephew or son can get his hands on will cost you money or jail time.




That's what I think too when I hear about the mass killings in the USA.  I also think that anyone who argues against the sorts of gun laws that Canada has is as guilty as those killers because their support would go a long way towards saving lives, but apparently they don't care enough about the lives of people.  Their opposition only shows them to be thoughtless and lacking in empathy quite frankly.  

I don't like guns, I think they are an accident waiting to happen but I can accept that some people want them.  But surround them with regulations that make it a real supreme effort to own them!  Gun owners should have to jump through hoops because we're not talking about something to make peeling potatoes easier, these are weapons designed in truth, for one thing only and that is to take a life.

As to the mentally ill Bob, doctors might not be able to say anything about their illnesses, but references might and they aren't given an opportunity to possibly be the brake in the system because there is no checking.  In Canada, our police departments look at the statements of references prior to deciding.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 4, 2015)

Lock down drills for 4 and 5 year olds.  FFS. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rehearsing-for-death-a-pre-k-teacher-on-the-trouble-with-lockdown-drills/2014/10/28/4ab456ea-5eb2-11e4-9f3a-7e28799e0549_story.html


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## Jackie22 (Oct 4, 2015)

imp said:


> My point is that, unless clear and factual data be presented showing homicides committed, let's say, using other than a firearm as a lethal device, the mere presence of firearms does not cause murder.    imp



There is no gun data because the NRA lobbyist and the ringwing congress voted against it

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/o...0140318&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=31465010&_r=1

Our country's violent deaths by guns problem is caused by the ready AVAILABILITY of guns.

This latest shooter had THIRTEEN guns!

The argument that cities with the strictest gun control has more deaths will not wash as the gun control laws are not universal, anyone wanting a gun only has to drive 20 miles down the road to buy them.


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## Warrigal (Oct 4, 2015)

As a teacher I cannot begin to imagine the scenario of rehearsing a lockdown with school children.
We did regularly rehearse safe evacuation in the event of fire, but never gunfire.

From Ameriscot's these last couple of paragraphs stand out for me (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rehearsing-for-death-a-pre-k-teacher-on-the-trouble-with-lockdown-drills/2014/10/28/4ab456ea-5eb2-11e4-9f3a-7e28799e0549_story.html)



> I teach in a country awash in weaponry. Maybe that moment I stood alone in my classroom was when I was closest to the truth. In 13 minutes, according to my gruesome and involuntary mental calculus, a single gunman with his effortlessly obtained XM15-E2S rifle and 26 rounds in each of two additional magazines could potentially kill 78 of us. Even considering the time it takes to calmly reload.
> 
> Instead of controlling guns and inconveniencing those who would use them, we are rounding up and silencing a generation of schoolchildren, and terrifying those who care for them. We are giving away precious time to teach and learn while we cower in fear.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

Well the obvious answer according to the NRA is for all teachers to be armed and trained..


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## Ameriscot (Oct 4, 2015)

My 5 year old granddaughter just started school.  She doesn't really know why they do it, just that it's part of school.  The 10 year old said she is given many reasons for doing it.  Didn't get any other details.


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## Butterfly (Oct 4, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Are you saying that the root cause is that "life is cheap" today? Is that the real problem?




No.  Life is the most precious thing we have, and it is never cheap.

The problem is the perception by many of the disaffected that life is cheap.  Or that other people's lives are cheaper than their own.  And the perception by many that they are entitled to what they want when they want it, and if they don't get it is someone else's (or society's) fault they don't get it.  And that if they don't get it the reasonable response is to hurt or killto "teach them a lesson" or "express themselves."  And the perception that they have the right to live a life where nothing offends them or "dis-es" them -- of you don't get that, then kill the offender.


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## tnthomas (Oct 4, 2015)

I don't mind the 'anti-gun' view, to each their own.    Guns have protected my life, I have protected others with guns as well.    

 Here on the edge of civilization the police cannot provide protection, like in the city.  

 If someone invades your castle, the neighbors will not know...unless they hear gunshots.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 4, 2015)

Good points Thomas, I agree.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 4, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> imp, Do you really think there would be 9 dead and 9 wounded if the Oregon killer used a knife? He could have been fought off with three students swinging book bags! Is that enough substance?



I could take out at least that many. Bookbags wouldn't stop me.


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## imp (Oct 4, 2015)

*"This latest shooter had THIRTEEN guns!"


*Seems pretty silly to me that the NUMBER of firearms owned by an individual should be of such grievous concern. Only one may be used at one time, no? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of firearms collectors who own numbers of guns that would no doubt frighten the wits out of you. It is estimated that 40 to 60 MILLION handguns are privately owned in the State of Texas. That number would amount to over two handguns for every man, woman, and child, given Texas' 2014 population of 27 million persons.    imp


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

And the beat goes on.....


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

QS, let's work in tandem. I will treat the rampant denial so prevalent on this site, and you can play Florence Nightingale to all the wounds caused by the rest of us beating our heads against the wall, again and again and again. Lol.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

Did you have any doubt that this mass shooting wouldn't be any different from the hundreds of others?   A million excuses why there should be no control over guns... the same old tired talking points bought and paid for by the NRA....  Then silence... until the NEXT mass shooting  only to be taken out and dusted off again..   NOTHING is EVER going to change.


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

QS I hope you are wrong. I hope the younger generations will see things differently. We know what will happen if things continue down this path. For the millions of Americans who feel as you do, the despair must be palpable. I am so sorry  that 
things seem so hopeless.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 4, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> QS I hope you are wrong. I hope the younger generations will see things differently. We know what will happen if things continue down this path. For the millions of Americans who feel as you do, the despair must be palpable. I am so sorry  that
> things seem so hopeless.



Oh, please, Shali ... "palpable despair", "hopeless" ...

The first time QS is saved by someone with a gun she'll be singing their praises. It's the people who have never been in a situation that protest the loudest. 

Guns HAVE helped save my life, on more than one occasion - I won't speak against them.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Oh, please, Shali ... "palpable despair", "hopeless" ...
> 
> The first time QS is saved by someone with a gun she'll be singing their praises. It's the people who have never been in a situation that protest the loudest.
> 
> Guns HAVE helped save my life, on more than one occasion - I won't speak against them.



Never BEEN in the.situation????    ..  I almost lost a child to gun violence... and DON'T you DARE minimize that with your flippant remark.....   By the way PHIL... Have you ever seen YOUR child with a HOLE in his face???   Bleeding to death??? He was TEN years old.


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

With respect, Phil, I have been in many such situations. I did not have a conventional childhood. I was raped, tortured, beaten, confined, sold multiple times for years and years and years. Please do not treat me with condescension. Forcibly taught to use a gun during human chess matches. I was threatened more than once with being shot because of my attempts to protect other children. Creased three times.  If I had not been seen as breeding stock, I would have died along with so many others. I learned how to use throwing knives also. Learned how to incapacitate other children. Out of fifteen child slaves/child whores, this woman, once known as "the doll," is the only survivor. There is more than one kind of strength Phil. Disagree with me if you will, Phil, but I deserve your respect. Pax.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

I think it's PHIL that hasn't really been in any real life situations... Talks a mighty fine game.... all bravado...  and a lot of talk... but never has really lived the real deal.

I should have never shared my experience.    I am sitting here seeing my baby with his face blow open..... I am in a really bad place now and PHIL.... You haven't helped...  Although I suppose your EASTERN philosophy will place the blame on my 10 year old child... won't it.... ?  Come on Phil... bring it ON!!!


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

> It's the people who have never been in a situation that protest the loudest.



Are you there phil???    Anymore remarks about how I've never been in the situation???    Come on big guy... Let's hear it!


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

Hey QS. Take heart, flashbacks are hell. I do understand. I commend your courage in speaking your truth, and remaining steadfast in your beliefs regardless of personal cost. Some will not hear you, regardless, but some will. One less child/woman/man/group of people injured or killed makes what we endured/endure manageable--most of the time.  If you need to talk I will listen.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

It's just that it's so easy for some to talk a big talk...Stand on the 2nd amendment and their constitutional rights..   Unless someone has seen their loved one, particularly their child shot and bleeding... THEN they can tell me how they feel about guns..  Until then... They simply have no credibility in my book..  I pity them for their lack of  humaneness


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 4, 2015)

Quicksilver, I'm very sorry about what happened to your son, I can't imagine how you felt at the time and are still feeling today.  Although I am pro-gun, I completely understand your strong feelings against them.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 4, 2015)

Thank you SB.....


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## Shalimar (Oct 4, 2015)

Anger is easy if one has been a victim of horror. The rage never leaves you. Some of us live lives of constant vigilance, with dragons in boxes, straining to be released. It would be cathartic to open the cage, and let the firestorm begin, join the Apocalypse, erupt in violence of all kinds. Ohhhh, the Power! I choose not to live that way. Destruction is easy. I choose positive strength and nurturing instead.  I walk the high wire between humanity and pathology, open, loving, compassionate, and vulnerable to the best of my ability. Forever broken also. There is no cure for PTSD. Remission, only. Ultimately, the pit is your true home, though furloughs are frequent. But, my spirit endures. I will not embrace violence, only healthy vulnerability. I will serve as a wounded healer wherever possible. . I will never carry a gun. I will stand witness for those innocents who have been, or will be victimised, or die in the attempt. I refuse to be afraid. I refuse to hate. I refuse to hide. I will put my body and my mind out there for what I believe. In the end, there is only kindness.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 5, 2015)

I would like to apologize to the group for losing my temper on this topic... it's a hot button topic for me as you can see..   I normally never speak of it when involved in a "gun" debate.. and will, in the future keep to that rule..


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

No need, QuickSilver. I think everyone understands, even though most of us have never had similar experiences. :bighug:


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## mitchezz (Oct 5, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I would like to apologize to the group for losing my temper on this topic... it's a hot button topic for me as you can see..   I normally never speak of it when involved in a "gun" debate.. and will, in the future keep to that rule..



Please don't apologise QS. From an outsider's perspective I think America needs a lot more people angry about the harm guns do to effect any real change.


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## mitchezz (Oct 5, 2015)

*Boy, 11, charged with murder after he 'killed his eight-year-old girl neighbor with his dad's shot-gun in a fight over a puppy'*



*The victim has been identified as Maykayla Dyer, age eight *
*The third grader was reportedly shot dead by an 11-year-old neighbor after she refused to let him see her puppy on Saturday *
*The boy was taken into custody and charged with first-degree murder *
*Dyer's mother says the boy had a history of bullying her daughter  *
By Ashley Collman For Dailymail.com 
An 11-year-old boy used his father's shot-gun to shoot dead an eight-year-old girl neighbor this weekend, in a fight over a puppy.
The fifth-grade boy who carried out the tragic shooting was taken into custody and charged with first-degree murder on Saturday. 
Authorities in White Pine, Tennessee have not officially identified the shooter or his victim, but family have identified Maykayla Dyer as the girl killed. 












Too young: Maykayla Dyer, age eight, was shot dead on Saturday by an eleven-year-old neighbor after telling the boy he couldn't see her puppy






In mourning: Maykayla's mother Latasha Dyer (in red) broke down in tears as she spoke about her daughter's murder this weekend

Police were called to the trailer park on Robin Road around 7:30pm after calls about a shooting, and found Dyer on the ground suffering from a gunshot wound to the chest. 
She was rushed to Morristown-Hamblen Hospital where she was later pronounced dead. 
Sheriff Bud McCoig says Dyer attended White Pine Elementary School where her shooter was also a student. He reportedly used his father's 12-gauge shotgun to carry out the shooting.  
Authorities have not released details on what spurred the shooting, but neighbors and Maykayla's family say the shots rang out after a fight about a puppy. 

The boy allegedly shot her from his home shortly after that exchange. 
'Watching the Tennessee football game, heard the bang,' neighbor Chasity Arwood told WBIR. 'And then everybody screaming that he shot her baby girl.'
On Sunday, Maykayla's mother Latasha  Dyer broke down in tears as she described how her 'mommy's girl' had been bullied by her shooter.



​

Shattered glass: The boy who carried out the shooting reportedly fired the gun from inside his home. He was taken into custody and charged with first-degree murder 






Mommy's girl: Maykayla Dyer pictured above with her mother Latasha. Latasha Dyer says that her daughter's alleged killer had a history of bullying her

'When we first moved to White Pine, the little boy was bullying McKayla,' Dyer told WATE. 'He was making fun of her, calling her names just being mean to her, I had to go the principal about him and he quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her.'
'I want her back in my arms, this is not fair, hold and kiss you’re babies every night because you’re never promised the next day with them. I hope the little boy learned his lesson because he took my baby’s life and I can’t get her back,' Dyer added. 
The boy has been charged with first-degree murder and is currently in custody. He is set to appear before a judge at 11am on Monday for a detention hearing. A judge will later determine whether the child should be charged as an adult. 
The boy reportedly came from a family of six children. It's unclear whether he had any mental health issues, but the Department of Child Services is investigating the possibility. 
A man who says he is Maykayla's uncle has set up a Go Fund Me page to raise funds for the girl's funeral.   


Read more:   

Sheriff: 5th grade boy kills 8-year-old neighbor with shotgun
.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

How can you try an 11 year old as an adult?
Try him for murder by all means but as a child, not an adult.

 What about the adults who had an unsecured shotgun and ammunition?


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

QS. No need to apologise. So sorry for your pain.


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

Try him as a child. Try his parents also. They are complicit in this horror. Rest in peace  Maykayla.


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

Perhaps I should apologise also, for bringing too much gritty ugliness to the board. Perhaps I overshared. If I caused unnecessary upset I am sorry.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

On another tack, it is said that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. So it is with gun safety and gun legislation.

It's 20 years since Australia brought in uniform national legislation to control/prohibit certain categories of firearms.
There are signs that vested interests are working to undermine them.



> *After 20 years, Australia's gun control debate is igniting once again*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

Also putting things into perspective - this article was written by a US writer in August, after the shooting in Virginia of the news presenter and the cameraman. It contains some very poignant and prescient paragraphs.



> The blasé acceptance that, yes, you might well get shot some day is as much of a facet of American life in 2015 as it was in 2002. We are as desensitized now as we were were in 1993, when Colin Ferguson shot up a Long Island Railroad train car of commuters and in 1984, when James Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California. The shooting at the University of Albany, in upstate New York (1994) didn’t change anything. Columbine (1999) didn’t change anything. The Lancaster, Pennsylvania Amish schoolhouse shooting (2006) didn’t change anything.
> 
> Nothing changed for Americans because our political leaders didn’t change anything. Instead, a nation ducked.





> Is it still shocking that there are legally-armed Americans killing innocent strangers?
> 
> The Washington Post points out that *there’s been more than one mass shooting per day in 2015*(my bold)(that is, shooting incidents in which more than four people were injured). The Centers for Disease Control statistics show that more than 33,000 people will have fatal encounters with guns in a given year.
> 
> When gun violence happens every day, it’s hard to be shocked; fatal shootings are, at this point, a given of American life, whether we like to admit it or not.





> There will be another mass shooting soon enough, of course. There will be another period of mourning in which any talk of doing something about just how many guns we have will be shushed by conservatives eager to not politicize the deaths of some new number of innocents.



And of course she was right. Nothing did change and there has been another mass shooting. Possibly more than one since the Virginia shootings.

Full article here: http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...you-might-get-shot-is-a-fact-of-american-life


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## Butterfly (Oct 5, 2015)

IMHO, in this case, the parents of the boy were grossly negligent in leaving a shotgun where their son, known to be a bully, could get his hands on it.  Bullying should be addressed when it starts, not after something like this happens.

Another case of a young person feeling entitled to get what he wanted when he wanted it, not being able to accept NO and feeling like he was entitled to "get even" with anyone who said NO.  When are we going to decide to deal with stuff like bullying when it starts and not wait until it explodes into fatal violence??

Terribly sad.


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## Underock1 (Oct 5, 2015)

My heart felt sympathy to all those who have suffered such horrible tragedies. My admiration for being the loving, caring people I know you to be from your posts in spite of all of that. I have to leave this thread. My frustration with the ignorance, stupidity and cold heartedness of my fellow human (?) beings has reached its limits.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 6, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> My heart felt sympathy to all those who have suffered such horrible tragedies. My admiration for being the loving, caring people I know you to be from your posts in spite of all of that. I have to leave this thread. My frustration with the ignorance, stupidity and cold heartedness of my fellow human (?) beings has reached its limits.



I feel the same....my heart goes out to QS and Shali.


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## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2015)

Thank you Jackie. It makes me a better therapist I think.:love_heart:


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## Davey Jones (Oct 6, 2015)

Guns? This Says It All. Money,who has it and who they give it to.And to think you people keep re-electing the same ones over and over and over...........


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## Ken N Tx (Oct 6, 2015)

*The Story of My Gun
*


Today,  I swung my front door wide open and placed my Remington 30.06 right in  the doorway.  I left 6 cartridges beside it, then left it alone and went  about my business.
While I was gone, the mailman delivered my mail, the neighbor boy across  the street mowed the yard, a girl walked her dog down the street, and  quite a few cars stopped at the stop sign near the front of my house
After about an hour, I checked on the gun.  It was still sitting there,  right where I had left it.  It hadn't moved itself outside.  It  certainly hadn't killed anyone, even with the numerous opportunities it  had presented to do so.  In fact, it hadn't even loaded itself. 

Well you can imagine my surprise, with all the hype by the Left and the  Media about how dangerous guns are and how they kill people.  Either the  media is wrong or I'm in possession of the laziest gun in the world. 

The United States is 3rd in Murders throughout the World.  But if you  take out just 4 cities: Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC and New Orleans,  the United States is *4th from the bottom*, in the entire world, for  Murders. These 4 Cities also have the toughest Gun Control Laws in the  U.S.  

It would be absurd to draw any conclusions from this data - right?


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## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2015)

This does not take into account the continual massacres.


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## Davey Jones (Oct 6, 2015)

If I may. Just what do you intend to do with an empty rifle by the front door?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 6, 2015)




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## QuickSilver (Oct 6, 2015)

Ken N Tx said:


> *The Story of My Gun
> *
> 
> 
> ...




Actually Ken...  You are right... Your gun didn't load itself and go and commit a crime...  However, if by putting your gun and ammo out for the taking and unattended... had it been stolen and someone KILLLED someone with it... YOU should be held liable and fined or sentenced to prison time..   That would be the stricter negligence penalties talked about in my post above..


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## Vivjen (Oct 6, 2015)

So how do you explain the 11year old boy who shot an 8 year old girl from inside his home with a 12 gauge shotgun?
hardly self-defence....so why is the gun lying about in a house.
i just don't get it.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 6, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> So how do you explain the 11year old boy who shot an 8 year old girl from inside his home with a 12 gauge shotgun?
> hardly self-defence....so why is the gun lying about in a house.
> i just don't get it.




And his parents should be prosecuted along with him.   Just like the mother of the boy who shot my son..  She left a loaded gun in her nightstand and the boy got a hold of it..   Now according to the mother, she and her boyfriend had lectured the boy on guns and the proper handing and how to never touch it..  See how well that worked.   Kids are kids and  boys certainly will be boys.. That woman should have had some penalty.  a fine.. community service... or maybe if things had turned out worse.. prison time.


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## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2015)

> The United States is 3rd in Murders throughout the World.  But if you  take out just 4 cities: Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC and New Orleans,  the United States is *4th from the bottom*, in the entire world, for  Murders. These 4 Cities also have the toughest Gun Control Laws in the  U.S.



Data please. Easy to make and repeat this statement but is it even true. For example, when deleting the murders from the four cities, did they also delete the population of those cities? If not the reduction in the murder rate is mathematically incorrect.

Also, why not take out the 4 hotspots from countries like Egypt, Mexico, Russia and South Africa and see how their rates improve. 
I know numbers and statistics and this is an example of the abuse of statistics to back up a weak or false argument.


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## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2015)

Straw argument for sure. Massacres are epidemic in America, this is a fact. They are escalating. This is a fact also. Imagine,if in Canada that young man who stabbed those people to death at a party. Horrible. What could he have accomplished with  firearms????


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## Jackie22 (Oct 6, 2015)

[h=1]Congressman Who Restricted Gun Violence Research Has Regrets[/h]



*The Congressman Who Restricted Gun Violence Research Has Regrets 
Rep. Jay Dickey (R-Ark.) authored the controversial 1996 amendment that remains in place. He wishes Congress would change it.* 



............... 

At first, the House tried to close down the CDC's entire, $46 million National Center for Injury Prevention. When that failed, Dickey stepped in with an alternative: strip $2.6 million that the agency had spent on gun studies that year. The money would eventually be re-appropriated for studies unrelated to guns. But the far more damaging inclusion was language that stated, _“None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”_ 

*Dickey proclaimed victory -- an end, he said at the time, to the CDC's attempts "to raise emotional sympathy" around gun violence. But the agency spent the subsequent years petrified of doing any research on gun violence, making the costs of the amendment cleareeven to Dickey himself.* 

*He said the law was over-interpreted*. Now, he looks at simple advances in highway safety -- safety barriers, for example -- and wonders what could have been done for guns. 

_"If we had somehow gotten the research going, we could have somehow found a solution to the gun violence without there being any restrictions on the Second Amendment,"_ Dickey said. _"We could have used that all these years to develop the equivalent of that little small fence."_ 



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry..._561333d7e4b022a4ce5f45bf?utm_hp_ref=politics


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## Bobw235 (Oct 6, 2015)

I thought this column by Nicholas Kristof in Sunday's NY Times was spot on.  It makes common sense arguments in favor of ways we might begin to address what's obviously a problem with guns in this country.  I personally don't own a gun, but have no desire to have one in my home.  I grew up with guns, had one as a kid (a .22 rifle) and took lessons in how to shoot it from the local gun club.  I don't have anything against a law abiding citizen acquiring a gun, provided he/she can pass a sensible background check.  I support the collection of data on gun violence and feel that there should be limits on the types of weapons that a person can purchase.  Anyway, take a look at this article.  It just resonates with me as logical and in the best interests of beginning to curb our problem with guns.  It's not offering any quick fixes.  This is going to take time.  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/o...n=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection


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## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2015)

There are no quick fixes. It will take decades of small incremental measures to bring gun violence down to less horrific levels. 
Doing nothing won't change anything and the biggest change needs to be in the mindset of the people. They have to want things to improve.


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## Susie (Oct 6, 2015)

Doesn't anyone ever get tired of discussing this topic over and over again?
So tiresome!
It simply will NOT eradicate an entrenched gun culture!
(Of course, it also provides a convenient way of venting anger, envy, and BIAS against the U.S.!


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## Bobw235 (Oct 6, 2015)

Susie said:


> Doesn't anyone ever get tired of discussing this topic over and over again?
> So tiresome!
> It simply will NOT eradicate an entrenched gun culture!
> (Of course, it also provides a convenient way of venting anger, envy, and BIAS against the U.S.!


Absolutely!  Beyond the insanity surrounding the whole debate around the 2nd amendment, what I find most troubling is the unwillingness of our legislators to do ANYTHING that would even begin to address our culture of gun violence in this country.  They are self-serving cowards, most of them, only interested in preserving their jobs.


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## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2015)

Susie said:


> Doesn't anyone ever get tired of discussing this topic over and over again?
> So tiresome!
> It simply will NOT eradicate an entrenched gun culture!
> (Of course, it also provides a convenient way of venting anger, envy, and BIAS against the U.S.!



Reform of any kind begins with consciousness raising. 
Think civil rights, women's emancipation, same sex marriage and add to that changes to gun culture. 
To not talk about it is to sweep the problem under the carpet.

No-one is forced to enter the conversation. The ostrich approach is always an option.


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## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2015)

Envy? hardly. Why would people envy a gun culture that perpetuates this madness? Not everyone wishes to be an American. Some of us are quite happy with our country of origin. The truth is not bias, sailing the "Good Ship Ostrich" down denial, is not working. Many Americans recognise this, and  are working hard from within to change things. Anger, you bet! We all should be angry at the repeated massacres of the innocent. The xenophobic, outside malcontent argument is a straw one, and does a huge disservice to those Americans who are crying out in the wilderness, trying desperately to halt this epidemic.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 6, 2015)

The list below shows the congressmen that have received the most from gun lobbyist in the last 6 years...all republicans..


Money and Politics: Illuminating the ConnectionSign in | Register Search MapLight: 
Search MapLight
U.S. CongressChange
GuideBillsLegislatorsInterest GroupsContributionsCompaniesTopics
Pro-Guns
ContributionsBills supported and opposed


Top Senate Recipients Funded


Recipient    Amount
Cory Gardner    $92,934
Ted Cruz    $89,329
John Cornyn    $82,475
Marco Rubio    $76,089
Mitch McConnell    $72,300
Dean Heller    $71,556
Steve Daines    $70,680
Patrick J. Toomey    $66,360
Tom Cotton    $56,340
Bill Cassidy    $50,303




Top House Recipients Funded


Recipient    Amount
John A. Boehner    $57,790
Paul Ryan    $49,700
Ken Buck    $41,858
Kevin McCarthy    $26,400
Alexander X. Mooney    $25,591
Ken Calvert    $25,000
Mike Coffman    $24,800
Martha McSally    $21,232
Jody B. Hice    $20,882
Michael K. Simpson    $20,450

http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/J6200


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## Shalimar (Oct 6, 2015)

Speaks for itself doesn't it? Sooo many pieces of silver. Hmm. So this is the cost of carnage.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 6, 2015)

This people have blood on their hands.


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

How much effort, time and money is being allocated to fighting terrorism? Enough? Too much? Too little?

Consider your answer in the light of this graphic that show terrorism deaths in the US from 1970 to 2014 and gun deaths in USA so far in 2015.



How much effort, time, money is being allocated to minimising gun deaths? Enough?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

Yeah... and people here are so concerned about taking in a few Syrian families....   Absolutely makes me laugh.


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

Terrorism deaths are expected to be low as we have our police all on enhanced types of watch.   Our airports are really locked down compared to free as they once were.   Our ports, railways, subways, public transportation are all heavily watched.   We have undisclosed folks that ride on our airplanes, and other public transportation to watch for terror types of events.  Hopefully our efforts to quell these foreign driven attacks will remain successful.

Gun deaths in the US.   We are not the worst on a 'per capita' basis at all and are slowly improving in spite of the way our news folks report things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Links to this source and the chart will  have all countries listed alphabetically.   Click on the title 'Homicide' and the chart will reorganize and by per capita the US move up quite a bit.   With many other large and small countries worse than the US.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

Debating this with you Bob will be as hopeless as the "Socialism" thread...    Just believe what you wish..


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

And here is another way to look at it.    This time by murders, regardless of guns or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Again, you can see it in alphabetical order of click on the heading 'Rate' to see how they all line up.   In this case the US is 108 and Australia is 34.   So once again the US is not the worst in the world at all.


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Debating this with you Bob will be as hopeless as the "Socialism" thread...    Just believe what you wish..



It all depends on the receiver of my posts has an open mind or locked image of what is right or wrong.

It appears that for some reason you can not even open a dictionary to see what socialism really is.   Pick any dictionary.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

I think the WRITER of the post has the real problem with that... not the receiver.  As I said bob.... believe what you which... even if it's wrong...


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think the WRITER of the post has the real problem with that... not the receiver.  As I said bob.... believe what you which... even if it's wrong...



I am not debating at all.   It is you who has no courage to open a dictionary and see what socialism is and it is not what the US is doing at all.   This post is about murder, no questions here but how some determine to think about it when stats show different results.   The US is not the worst in the world with guns or just plain murder.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

You keep blathering on and on about the dictionary when we are NOT debating the definition of Socialism... only stating that the US has a lot of socialist programs.  That's it... plain and simple bob..   Now I am done with the conversation.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 7, 2015)

As I have posted before, Arizona has the most liberal gun laws in the US, but does that translate to higher murder rates?  The answer is a resounding YES!  Here is some data:

http://www.12news.com/story/news/lo...un-homicide-rate-highest-in-arizona/70947402/


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## WhatInThe (Oct 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> As I have posted before, Arizona has the most liberal gun laws in the US, but does that translate to higher murder rates?  The answer is a resounding YES!  Here is some data:
> 
> http://www.12news.com/story/news/lo...un-homicide-rate-highest-in-arizona/70947402/



Big difference there is that Arizona doesn't require those with a restraining order against them to turn in their gun, that's not just a 'gun' loophole that's poor domestic abuse control.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

Oh what the heck..... it's mostly only women they're stalking...  who cares...


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## Bobw235 (Oct 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Big difference there is that Arizona doesn't require those with a restraining order against them to turn in their gun, that's not just a 'gun' loophole that's poor domestic abuse control.



No doubt the NRA logic there is that the woman should also have a gun to protect herself (he said with his tongue planted firmly in his cheek).  Because the only thing that stops a stalker with a gun, is a stalkee with a gun.  

Never forget that the NRA first and foremost is a lobbying organization for gun manufacturers.  Their job is to do whatever it takes to further the business interests of gun manufacturers.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 7, 2015)

Bobw235 said:


> No doubt the NRA logic there is that the woman should also have a gun to protect herself (he said with his tongue planted firmly in his cheek).  Because the only thing that stops a stalker with a gun, is a stalkee with a gun.
> 
> Never forget that the NRA first and foremost is a lobbying organization for gun manufacturers.  Their job is to do whatever it takes to further the business interests of gun manufacturers.



And the more profit the Gun industry makes the more they can contribute to the NRA... and the more the NRA can contribute to the campaign funds of the legislatures voting against gun control..


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

BobF said:


> And here is another way to look at it.    This time by murders, regardless of guns or not.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
> 
> Again, you can see it in alphabetical order of click on the heading 'Rate' to see how they all line up.   In this case the US is 108 and Australia is 34.   So once again the US is not the worst in the world at all.



It's not a competition Bob. The US homicide rate is 4.7 per 100.000. The UK rate is 1.0 per 100,000. To me  this says that the US is a much more violent society than Britain. Nearly 5 times as many people are intentionally killed in the US than is England, Wales etc. Are you content with this situation? Would you like it to be less violent?

Or are you just feeling smug because Russia is so much worse?


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 7, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> The US homicide rate is 4.7 per 100.000. The UK rate is 1.0 per 100,000. To me  this says that the US is a much more violent society than Britain.



I wonder if the way the homicides in the UK are reported makes a difference?  It seems like only homicides where the killer was convicted, etc. are reported, is that true?  http://crimeresearch.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/


*UK* — Homicides in England and Wales are not counted the same as in other countries.  Their homicide numbers “exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise” (Report to Parliament).  The problem isn’t just that it reduces the recorded homicide rate in England and Wales, but what would a similar reduction mean for the US.






If taken literally, and there is significant evidence that in practice the actual adjustment is no where near this large, a simple comparison can be made. 

 In 2012, the US murder rate was 4.7 per 100,000, a total of 14,827.  Arrests amounted to only 7,133.  Using only people who were arrested (not just convicted) would lower the US murder rate to 2.26 per 100,000. 

More information on the adjustment for England and Wales is available here and it suggests that while many homicides are excluded it isn’t as large as it would appear (in 1997, the downward adjustment would be about 12 percent).


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

So the other people didn't really die?

Convictions often lag the event by several years. Eventually they must appear in the statistics of another year.

Still, to address the point you have made, SeaBreeze, the discrepancy in the UK figures caused by not including deaths without a conviction  is 13 - 15 %, which means that the UK figure could be taken as 1.15 instead of 1.0. Comparing that with 4.7 for the US, I think my point about the relative levels of deadly violence still stands. 

The biggest problem we have over here is women (and sometimes children) being killed by their intimate partners or ex partners. We are seeing a surge in these killings and the rate is now roughly two women killed each week (2015). Money and resources have been allocated to addressing the problem. Not enough - it is only 100 million which is less than 11 days of bombing operations in the Middle East - but it is a start. 

Domestic violence has gone from being something that no-one talked about to being something that everyone is aware of and wanting something to be done to prevent it. Our previous PM cut the budgets for women's refuges and support for domestic violence sufferers but the new one is much more receptive. I do believe that there comes a moment in time when entrenched problems can be addressed, but before that happens, a lot of talking has to occur. The problem must be recognised and named. And owned.

This past year, the Australian of the Year is a woman whose husband beat their son to death in front of her using a cricket bat. This happened in a public park in front of all the other children at cricket practice. Rosie Batty has done nothing else but talk about domestic violence this year and people have listened to her. That is the other end of the equation - there must be people who speak out but there must also be ears, minds and hearts open to hearing the message.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Batty


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> It's not a competition Bob. The US homicide rate is 4.7 per 100.000. The UK rate is 1.0 per 100,000. To me  this says that the US is a much more violent society than Britain. Nearly 5 times as many people are intentionally killed in the US than is England, Wales etc. Are you content with this situation? Would you like it to be less violent?
> 
> Or are you just feeling smug because Russia is so much worse?



Warrigal, there have been many comments about the US being the worst in the world and I am just trying to put that idea to shame.   The US is not the worst in the world or anywhere near so.   What is somewhat comforting is that in recent years our problems have been recorded as lowering.   I like that over the powerful screeching of some that we are the worst in the world.


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

The US is not the only country where the intentional homicide rate is reducing over time. I have no idea why this is happening.

This graph covers the years 2000 - 2011. I selected the countries and you are right, the US is not top of the list.
There are plenty of other countries where the line would be above the US - South Africa, Russia, countries in the Middle East and South America...

I've never said that the US is worst in the world for murder or crime, but you do have a very high rate of mass murder by shooting.
I think this is what people focus on. I think it is something Americans should focus on.

What are you going to do about it? 
When might you even think about doing something about it?


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## BobF (Oct 7, 2015)

Gun crime stats have lowered in recent years in spite of the unreal comments that get posted.   To me this says we seem to be doing something right.

I don't know where you got your chart so will go with it anyway.   I posted the gun stats tables this morning or late yesterday evening.   They were reasonably safe to use.   Most of the stats on the web are truly OK but still not really reliable as they are open for modification most of the time.    But I like the government ones for accuracy and the web selections for their variety and ways of posting data differently than stuffy government controlled outputs.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?iid=4616&ty=pbdetail

Firearm Violence, 1993-2011                                    Michael Planty, Ph.D., Jennifer L. Truman, Ph.D.
          May 7, 2013    NCJ 241730
                            Presents trends on the number and rate of fatal and nonfatal  firearm violence from 1993 to 2011. The report examines incident and  victim demographic characteristics of firearm violence, including the  type of firearm used; victim's race, age, and sex; and incident  location. The report also examines changes over time in the percentages  of nonfatal firearm crimes by injury, reporting to the police, and the  use of firearms in self-defense. Information on homicide was obtained  primarily from the Centers for Disease Control's (CDC) National Vital  Statistics System. Nonfatal firearm violence data are from the National  Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which collects information on  nonfatal crimes reported and not reported to the police against persons  age 12 or older from a nationally representative sample of U.S.  households.
 Highlights:


Firearm-related homicides declined 39%, from 18,253 in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011. 
Nonfatal firearm crimes declined 69%, from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 victimizations in 2011. 
Firearm violence accounted for about 70% of all homicides and less than 10% of all nonfatal violent crime from 1993 to 2011. 
From 1993 to 2011, about 70% to 80% of firearm homicides and 90%  of nonfatal firearm victimizations were committed with a handgun. 
Males, blacks, and persons ages 18 to 24 had the highest rates of firearm homicide from 1993 to 2010. 
About 61% of nonfatal firearm violence was reported to the police in 2007-11.


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## Warrigal (Oct 7, 2015)

Bob, I've posted this graph before in another thread.
With it I posted a link to the stats I used to prepare it.

I'll search my posts to try to find the link for you to examine.

Edit - here you are Bob. It was in the People are Violent topic and it looks like I dug down into one of the links that you provided  on intentional homicide rates.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade#2000s

I copied selected data onto a spreadsheet and then constructed the graph. I could not graph all of the data at once because the result was a total jumble - hence the reason for selecting less countries.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 8, 2015)

Bobw235 said:


> No doubt the NRA logic there is that the woman should also have a gun to protect herself (he said with his tongue planted firmly in his cheek).  Because the only thing that stops a stalker with a gun, is a stalkee with a gun.
> 
> Never forget that the NRA first and foremost is a lobbying organization for gun manufacturers.  Their job is to do whatever it takes to further the business interests of gun manufacturers.



I keep on hearing the tag line NRA lobbying(among other industries) but is it really the NRA that causes others to go out en mass after a shooting and MASSIVE saturation news coverage and wait in line to buy a gun? Or people really fear there will be no guns to buy. I haven't seen NRA commercials and promotions right after a shooting yet I frequently see stories of gun sale surges to which even Obama commented on. This and others are so called hot button issues are there because they are a raw nerve and if it is hit all heck breaks lose. Same for abortion, drugs, scandals etc. People have a sincere interest in these topics for a reason-they follow them and do have opinions about them. Too much credit is being given to marketing and not enough credit given to the public that is reacting & thinking on their own.

People complain about Big Pharma lobbying which is "a" problem but there are a whole lot of people that want a pill for what ails them, not regime, routine, diet, exercise they want a quick fix. Big Pharma works because they know people want a pill fix, they are not selling a specific drug they are selling cure in a bottle, ez peezeee. If nothing else the NRA knows the public and not just existing gun owners.


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## Bobw235 (Oct 8, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> I keep on hearing the tag line NRA lobbying(among other industries) but is it really the NRA that causes others to go out en mass after a shooting and MASSIVE saturation news coverage and wait in line to buy a gun? Or people really fear there will be no guns to buy. I haven't seen NRA commercials and promotions right after a shooting yet I frequently see stories of gun sale surges to which even Obama commented on. This and others are so called hot button issues are there because they are a raw nerve and if it is hit all heck breaks lose. Same for abortion, drugs, scandals etc. People have a sincere interest in these topics for a reason-they follow them and do have opinions about them. Too much credit is being given to marketing and not enough credit given to the public that is reacting & thinking on their own.
> 
> People complain about Big Pharma lobbying which is "a" problem but there are a whole lot of people that want a pill for what ails them, not regime, routine, diet, exercise they want a quick fix. Big Pharma works because they know people want a pill fix, they are not selling a specific drug they are selling cure in a bottle, ez peezeee. If nothing else the NRA knows the public and not just existing gun owners.



I think you make a good point here.  My original comment about the NRA is a reaction to what we've seen them do over the years, which is to captitalize on the fear created by such events and to stymie efforts to put restrictions on, or even study guns and the health consequences of loose gun laws.  They have in the past attempted to play on the fears that gun sales might be tightened, especially in the wake of such horrible tragedies.  I cringe every time I see Wayne Lapierre on the news.  But you're right that the NRA reallly does know its target audience, which really is all of us.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 8, 2015)

Personally... I think the shootings and mass murders fill the NRA with glee...  It's making more and more people terrified and they are buying guns..  Nothing could be sweeter for the bottom line of their donors... the Gun Industry.


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## BobF (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Bob, I've posted this graph before in another thread.
> With it I posted a link to the stats I used to prepare it.
> 
> I'll search my posts to try to find the link for you to examine.
> ...



OK Warrigal, I prefer stats over graphs if I can find it.   That is what I was trying to say in my post.   Graphs are fine for a quick overview, but little else.


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## Warrigal (Oct 8, 2015)

They do show a tendency for the rates to be diminishing slightly in a number of countries, not just the US.
Did you notice Japan?


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## BobF (Oct 8, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> They do show a tendency for the rates to be diminishing slightly in a number of countries, not just the US.
> Did you notice Japan?



No, I did not notice Japan.   My interest was in showing how the US was not the worst in the world as too many anti gun folks claim.   It just is not so and the rates are slowly falling over the years.   The US is doing better and that was my point only.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 8, 2015)

BobF said:


> No, I did not notice Japan.   My interest was in showing how the US was not the worst in the world as too many anti gun folks claim.   It just is not so and the rates are slowly falling over the years.   The US is doing better and that was my point only.




Just how many gun deaths would YOU consider to be acceptable Bob?


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## BobF (Oct 8, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Just how many gun deaths would YOU consider to be acceptable Bob?



Not what I was pointing out.   We are not the worst nation in the world and the numbers, rates, are dropping.  Isn't that what you are looking forward too?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 8, 2015)

BobF said:


> Not what I was pointing out.   We are not the worst nation in the world and the numbers, rates, are dropping.  Isn't that what you are looking forward too?




So we aren't the worst in your opinion...  so what?... do we want to be even 2nd.. or third?   or even 10th..  as I asked..  how many deaths are ok..?


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## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2015)

Sometimes thinking about countries other than one's own can be beneficial. It broadens  outlook, giving a clearer perspective about things at home and abroad. In an increasingly global society, this can be important.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 8, 2015)

wow... talk about timely.   We just had a "CODE SILVER"  at work.   Everyone was asking what the heck that was... It's means a SHOOTER... So everyone had to lock and barricade the door and turn out the lights and be quiet.  Never in my 40 years of working have I ever had that code called..  Fortunately it was only a drill... but still a testimony to the world we live in.   How sad


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## Falcon (Oct 11, 2015)

_[FONT="color:#002060]Please go all the way down the list for the "bottom line". . .[/FONT]_[FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]This is FASCINATING !! [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]WORLD MURDER STATISTICS [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]From the World Health Organization [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]The latest Murder Statistics for the world: [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Murders per 100,000 citizens per year. [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]Honduras 91.6 (WOW!!) [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]El Salvador 69.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Cote d'lvoire 56.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Jamaica 52.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Venezuela 45.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Belize 41.4 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]US Virgin Islands 39.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Guatemala 38.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Zambia 38.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Uganda 36.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Malawi 36.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Lesotho 35.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Colombia 33.4 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]South Africa 31.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Congo 30.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Central African Republic 29.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Bahamas 27.4 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Puerto Rico 26.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Saint Lucia 25.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Dominican Republic 25.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Tanzania 24.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Sudan 24.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Ethiopia 22.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Guinea 22.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Dominica 22.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Burundi 21.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Panama 21.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Brazil 21.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Equatorial Guinea 20.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Guinea-Bissau 20.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Kenya 20.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Kyrgyzstan 20.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Cameroon 19.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Montserrat 19.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Greenland 19.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Angola 19.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Guyana 18.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Burkina Faso 18.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Eritrea 17.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Namibia 17.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Rwanda 17.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Mexico 16.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Chad 15.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Ghana 15.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Ecuador 15.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]North Korea 15.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Benin 15.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Sierra Leone 14.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Mauritania 14.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Botswana 14.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Zimbabwe 14.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Gabon 13.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Nicaragua 13.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]French Guiana 13.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Papua New Guinea 13.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Swaziland 12.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Bermuda 12.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Comoros 12.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Nigeria 12.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Cape Verde 11.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Grenada 11.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Paraguay 11.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Barbados 11.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Togo 10.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Gambia 10.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Peru 10.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Myanmar 10.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Russia 10.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Liberia 10.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Costa Rica 10..0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Nauru 9.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Bolivia 8.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Mozambique 8.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Kazakhstan 8.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Senegal 8.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Mongolia 8.7 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]British Virgin Islands 8.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Cayman Islands 8.4 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Seychelles 8.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Madagascar 8.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Indonesia 8.1 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Mali 8.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Pakistan 7.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Moldova 7.5 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Kiribati 7.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Guadeloupe 7.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Haiti 6.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Timor-Leste 6.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Anguilla 6.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Lithuania 6.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Uruguay 5.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Philippines 5.4 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Ukraine 5.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Estonia 5.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Cuba 5.0 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Belarus 4.9 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Thailand 4.8 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Suriname 4.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Laos 4.6 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Georgia 4.3 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Martinique 4.2 [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]And ........................................... [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:red]The[/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#002060] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:white]United [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#0070C0]States[/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#002060] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#002060]4.2 !!!!!!!!!!!! [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]ALL (109) of the countries above America have [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:red]100% gun bans[/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#002060]. [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:#002060]It might be of interest to note that SWITZERLAND is not shown on this list because it has [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]NO MURDER OCCURRENCE! [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

*[FONT="color:red]However, SWITZERLAND 'S law requires that EVERYONE: [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:red]1. Own a gun. [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:red]2. Maintain Marksman qualifications .... regularly . [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
_[FONT="color:#002060]  [/FONT]_[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]Didja learn anything from this?? [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
_[FONT="color:#002060]  [/FONT]_[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]I think the message is - loud and clear - that gun bans and restrictions [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]
*[FONT="color:#002060]DO NOT [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]*[FONT="color:#002060]work! [/FONT]*[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]​[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

[FONT="color:black]  [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

[FONT="color:black] [/FONT][FONT="color:black][/FONT]

[FONT="color:black] [/FONT]


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

Falcon, your post is showing up as unintelligible code.


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## Falcon (Oct 11, 2015)

Sorry for the extraneous wording but the last words tell the story.  banning firearms doesn't work.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 11, 2015)

Falcon said:


> Sorry for the extraneous wording but the last words tell the story.  banning firearms doesn't work.



But banning birth control, banning gay marriage, and banning abortion does?


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

Switzerland has no murder occurrence?

From Wikipedia



> In 2014, There were a total of 41 murders in Switzerland and had a murder rate of 0.49 per 100,000 population



This was the lowest rate in 41 years. Previous years 2005: 93, 2006: 95, 2007: 93,  2008: 95, 2009: 84.

Rather than assuming that gun control doesn't work, perhaps the question needs to be asked "What are the Swiss doing that is so effective?" 
Dig deeper for a solution.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

Switzerland has no murder occurrence?

 From Wikipedia



> In 2014, There were a total of 41 murders in Switzerland and had a murder rate of 0.49 per 100,000 population



 This was the lowest rate in 41 years. Previous years 2005: 93, 2006: 95, 2007: 93,  2008: 95, 2009: 84.

 Rather than assuming that gun control doesn't work, perhaps the question needs to be asked "What are the Swiss doing that is so effective?" 

Would the same approach work in another country/society?


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## fureverywhere (Oct 11, 2015)

In 2014, There were a total of 41 murders in Switzerland and had a murder rate of 0.49 per 100,000 population 
_Newark, New Jersey has one of the highest homicide rates  in the US. In 2012 there were 92 murders in Newark with a rate of 33.1 murders  for every 100,000 citizens

92 murders in a year in ONE American city.

_


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## BobF (Oct 11, 2015)

I think your are on to something there Warrigal.    I have posted the same observation on different forums and different times.   That is a good question for all to look at.

Guns are really part of their lives and have been for hundreds of years.   Not just guns but weapons and defensive postures against other peoples attempting to take away their lands and government style.

Right now they have two sources of guns in their lives.   One is for those military years, the other is for personal choice and that may even be the military weapon they keep after the military service ends.   Guns too are part of their entertainment times as they have gun shoot trials periodically.    Sort of like a gun fair for all to attend and show their skills if they wish.   I have read where on those gun days they carry their weapons with them on the trolley's and buses and into restaurants when they have meals.   Seems as though the gun is more an object of pride than something to be feared and to be hidden.   I would like to see the US get away from this constant fear and teach the people that it is criminal to use a gun against others of the community.   

Not sure how we will ever be able to teach the criminals or the drug and mental problems living in our society.    Mental problems seem to be somehow kept from the gun controllers so guns do get sold to the ones needing watched.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

> I would like to see the US get away from this constant fear and teach the people that it is criminal to use a gun against others of the community.



That would be a good start. "Thou shalt not kill" is a fairly ancient dictum that still has value in the present.


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## BobF (Oct 11, 2015)

That would be only one small part of the changes needed.   How do we get the people in the US to be as accepting and willing to have guns and gun days as the Swiss do?    Likely only happen after we somehow back off on this anti gun stuff we are getting jammed on us by a minority of the government and population.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

I think you are trying to swallow the wrong end of the pineapple, Bob.

How about getting the people to recognise that too many people are being shot to death or maimed and to start a sensible conversation to address the problem? I don't think that Switzerland has a low murder rate because they have guns and gun days. If the US simply decides that this will be the saving solution, I don't think the death toll will suddenly be halved. It will take a lot more that this.

When the death toll is brought down to less horrific rates, then gun days could possibly become a feasible option.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 11, 2015)

It can't happen now ...maybe future generations will eventually be enlightened enough to do something drastic. Until then nothing will change. If anything it will get far worse. I sometimes will read both sides of an issue just to get an idea what the other side is thinking. If you read the thinking behind gun culture it's so ingrained it can't be moved...such people can look at dead kids in an elementary school and think if the teachers and principal were armed it wouldn't have happened. The college shootings could have been stopped if more people were armed...and/or everybody had tossed heavy objects at the shooter...THEE most hare-brained thing I've heard yet.


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## BobF (Oct 11, 2015)

OK, then you tell me just what is the Swiss answer to your concern.   How to they keep guns and still have a rather nonchalant population.   

The US rates are far from the worst in the world and the rates over many recent years have been falling.  We are constantly being told we must get rid of our guns.   That is not a fact or truth but the minority of the government and our populatin sure do try to make it our first thing to do.   Where is the problem?   How do the Swiss do it?   They too have had some problems with the outside type thinking that they should not have guns at home.   History has shown that they have had little problems with weapons in homes.


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## Warrigal (Oct 11, 2015)

My thoughts in blue.



BobF said:


> OK, then you tell me just what is the Swiss answer to your concern.   How to they keep guns and still have a rather nonchalant population.
> 
> I have no idea other than it would seem that as a people they are a lot less hot headed than some others. I'd need to see the level of road rage, domestic violence, assault and public disorder before I could venture an opinion. I'm not Swiss and I've never been to Switzerland but I'm guessing that in temperament they are rather like the Dutch or the Scandinavians. They are a rather calm people. Someone please tell me if I've got this wrong.
> 
> ...


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## fureverywhere (Oct 11, 2015)

You want to know how bad it is? Sometimes my kid will tell me to beep my horn if somebody cuts me off in traffic. I have seen people stop their cars and brawl because someone beeped or was just a lousy driver. If they had guns too?...great, what could possibly go wrong? I do not beep.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Hasn't anyone noticed that the "gun culture" has become worse and more vocal since President Obama took office?   Seriously..  IMO this has been fueled by Right Wing media and the constant drum beat fueling the fear that "Obama is coming for your guns".     There actually are people that truly believe there is a plan to confiscate everyone's firearms... with the intention of preventing a revolution when Obama decides he is going to stay in office for a third term or possibly forever.   There really ARE people that believe this nonsense..  

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewi...elieve-conspiracy-theories-on-guns-sharia-law

http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/03/25/no-surprise-that-harris-poll-finds-republicans/162266


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## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

One thing I do notice, many Americans seem to be obsessed with personal safety in a manner that we Canucks are not.
Does this type of vigilance perhaps pave the way for a tunnel vision view of an America where The OK Corral approach is the 

only defence against any and all societal ills? It seems to this outsider, that there is so much barely contained rage and fear among certain segments of the population. What will happen if right wing gun mania becomes so prevalent that not only the 

anti gun proponents, but the responsible gun owners, are ostracised by the extremists? How do you maintain a society under those circumstances? I find this more terrifying than the lone gun crazies. A paranoid society is capable of scary things. 

Revolution? That is beyond horrific. Truly, I applaud those Americans struggling to help their country during these turbulent times.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

I sense the same paranoia. My personal safely rarely causes me any worry. I'm not silly enough to venture into lonely dark places at night but in daylight hours I go wherever I want, by myself, without any feelings of fear, or even unease. 

 I do read news reports of road rage and I try to be a very courteous driver. I believe that is a better defence than a loaded gun in the glove box.

 Right now, hubby and I are sitting in our front room and the front door is wide open because it is a hot evening. The wire door is closed but unlocked. Same at the back door. The side gates do not have a lock and the back door of the garage is always open unless we go away on vacation.

 If my neighbourhood in a major Australian city is so unthreatening, why would I even think of carrying a gun or keep one in my house? No-one in my family for generations past and present has ever felt the need to arm themselves with anything more deadly  than a rolling pin.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Have you seen the signs that are being put out in neighborhoods... by the GUN FOLKS???







If this isn't one of the most disgusting things that can be done, I don't know what is.   It's like guns are being forced down every American's throats whether we want to own one or not..  Talk about imposing ones views...  huh?   What would you do if a sign like this appeared on your neighbor's lawn?


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## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Wow! What rage. Certainly puts a target on that house. I would take it down. Here it would be illegal anyway, even if a homeowner received permission to have firearms in his home, posting such a sign contravenes responsible speech laws, and endangers others.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> One thing I do notice, many Americans seem to be obsessed with personal safety in a manner that we Canucks are not.
> Does this type of vigilance perhaps pave the way for a tunnel vision view of an America where The OK Corral approach is the
> 
> only defence against any and all societal ills? It seems to this outsider, that there is so much barely contained rage and fear among certain segments of the population. What will happen if right wing gun mania becomes so prevalent that not only the
> ...



This is exactly what is happening in our country and it is indeed scary, the extremists have created a paranoid society.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

And I might add... all based on falsehoods and fears propagated by Right Wing Media.. and of course.. the NRA


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

> Have you seen the signs that are being put out in neighborhoods... by the GUN FOLKS???
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'd like to erect a counter sign saying that 



> My neighbour is a compulsive liar.
> In any case he couldn't hit a barn door at 10 paces.
> And he's always out on (insert time of his lodge meeting here)



Just joking, but it would be fun to do it.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> One thing I do notice, many Americans seem to be obsessed with personal safety in a manner that we Canucks are not.
> Does this type of vigilance perhaps pave the way for a tunnel vision view of an America where The OK Corral approach is the
> 
> only defence against any and all societal ills? It seems to this outsider, that there is so much barely contained rage and fear among certain segments of the population. What will happen if right wing gun mania becomes so prevalent that not only the
> ...



It is a truly paranoid society.  People who don't have guns are deemed idiots and potential victims.  It's not like this in the UK either. I never worry. We don't even lock our doors half the time.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> I'd like to erect a counter sign saying that
> 
> 
> 
> Just joking, but it would be fun to do it.



I think if a neighbor had the balls to put up a sign like that.. YOUR sign would be totally appropriate.. tit for tat as they say.


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## BobF (Oct 12, 2015)

And in reading the above posts I see several errors being used against the US people, by the gun haters.

First is that it is not the far right folks making big fuss about needing guns.   Remember Harry Reid, leader of our Senate till a year ago?    He is one of Obama's party and is one that believes in the US has the right to own guns.

Also, our gun use rates are going down so the current gun laws are working.   Not fast enough but working.

We get lots of extremist creating these nasty situations.   To me the extremist are the far far left folks that want to change the US ways without following the Constitutional ways of having our representatives do all the debating and voting.   All these anti gun nonsense does is keep enraging those that prefer our national ways.

I don't see how Obama has caused the gun owners to be worse than before.   If rates continue to be going down then Obama is not a problem at all.   He does say he wishes for fewer deaths from guns.   And so do most of the gun owners.   Why can't our gun laws do the job?    There seems to be no way for the laws to not allow mental type's from getting guns as the mental state is protected by medical laws that will not allow that information to be given.

Paranoia is started and maintained by the anti gun groups and their blind idea that all these attacks on the US ways will fix the problem.   It will not work as the way to change things in the US is to start a Constitutional Amendment campaign and have the privileges modified or removed.   First would be to amend the 2nd amendment and I believe that some say also the 10th amendment.   Not sure about that amendment but definitely one of the newer ones.

A big problem with doing the amendment is that requires a strong majority of the Congress, about 2/3 majority.    And also about 2/3 of the states also supporting the amendment.    That means that if the gun haters are a minority they will never get the amendment through so they continue with their emotional fits and nothing gets done but keep folks all riled up.    We do not have these majority numbers for the anti gun folks to depend on.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

> Paranoia is started and maintained by the anti gun groups and their blind idea that all these attacks on the US ways will fix the problem



Sorry Bob, but I cannot agree. IMO paranoia (irrational fear) is fostered by the industry that makes and sells firearms. It's a selling point.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

Here is an interesting twist.

What if the sellers of firearms were held responsible for their stock being sold to straw buyers who on sell to people who shouldn't have guns?

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/wisconsin/trial-against-wisconsin-gun-shop-enters-final-week.html


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Or how about.. if you sell your gun to someone and they commit a murder... OR you are negligent and allow your gun to get into the hands of a crazy son or nephew and HE commits a murder... you are held liable and can face fines or prison time.?


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

Yes, but more effective if the sellers are reduced in number because they can't afford the fallout of their negligence.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Yes, but more effective if the sellers are reduced in number because they can't afford the fallout of their negligence.



Of course the sellers should be held liable... as well as the gun manufacturers.  It's the only industry that is immune from legal action for injury or death due to their products.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 12, 2015)

My neighbour is a compulsive liar. 
 In any case he couldn't hit a barn door at 10 paces. 
 And he's always out on (insert time of his lodge meeting here) 

In the name of being a good neighbor, I would try to work with this clown. If they take down the sign we can reach an agreement. If a prowler comes by the first defense is the truly frightening howls of my dogs. If that doesn't deter the individual then have a field day with your weapon. However if you miss and hit one of my dogs I will beat you to death with your sign.


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## imp (Oct 12, 2015)

*"I live in Sydney, the capital of drive by shootings at houses. Rarely does an innocent get hit although they don't seem to have any honour with regard to each others  families."

*(Posted elsewhere by Warrigal)

You mean that houses are being shot at by folks passing in cars? Those shooters are, then, guilty of several firearms violations, are they not? Possession, first, discharge of a firearm within a municipality, wanton disregard for public safety, etc.

Where do those folks obtain their guns?    imp


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## BobF (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Here is an interesting twist.
> 
> What if the sellers of firearms were held responsible for their stock being sold to straw buyers who on sell to people who shouldn't have guns?
> 
> http://www.wisconsingazette.com/wisconsin/trial-against-wisconsin-gun-shop-enters-final-week.html



It is in the courts and if found guilty they should lose their business and do some resting in the jail too.   If not guilty, that is hard to believe it would happen.    But it is up to the courts to determine.


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## applecruncher (Oct 12, 2015)

Ken N Tx said:


> *The Story of My Gun
> *
> 
> 
> ...



Very interesting, Ken. (especially the part I highlighted in red)


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

My responses in blue.


imp said:


> *"I live in Sydney, the capital of drive by shootings at houses. Rarely does an innocent get hit although they don't seem to have any honour with regard to each others  families."
> 
> *(Posted elsewhere by Warrigal)
> 
> ...


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

BobF said:


> It is in the courts and if found guilty they should lose their business and do some resting in the jail too.   If not guilty, that is hard to believe it would happen.    But it is up to the courts to determine.


It's a civil court case, Bob. I wouldn't think that there would be any jail time, just monetary damages.


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## applecruncher (Oct 12, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It is a truly paranoid society. People who don't have guns are deemed idiots and potential victims. It's not like this in the UK either. I never worry. We don't even lock our doors half the time.



Ameriscot, Shalimar - *We get it.* You hate the United States. Fine, that's your prerogative. :shrug: It's just as well that neither or you live here.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 12, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> Ameriscot, Shalimar - *We get it.* You hate the United States. Fine, that's your prerpgative. :shrug: It's just as well that neither or you live here.



I don't think this comment was called for......No one here hates the United States, to point out our failings is not hating the country.


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## BobF (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> It's a civil court case, Bob. I wouldn't think that there would be any jail time, just monetary damages.



News to me that civil court don't do jail time.   That court lady in Kentucky was jailed for not following court rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_court

[h=3]United States[/h] Under the United States jurisprudence,  acts of contempt are divided into direct or indirect and civil or  criminal. Direct contempt occurs in the presence of a judge; civil  contempt is "coercive and remedial" as opposed to punitive. In the  United States, relevant statutes include 18 U.S.C. §§ 401–403 and Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 42.[SUP][15][/SUP]


*Direct contempt* is that which occurs in the presence of the presiding judge (_in facie curiae_)  and may be dealt with summarily: the judge notifies the offending party  that he or she has acted in a manner which disrupts the tribunal and  prejudices the administration of justice. After giving the person the  opportunity to respond, the judge may impose the sanction immediately.
*Indirect contempt* occurs outside the immediate presence of  the court and consists of disobedience of a court's prior order.  Generally a party will be accused of indirect contempt by the party for  whose benefit the order was entered. A person cited for indirect  contempt is entitled to notice of the charge and an opportunity for  hearing of the evidence of contempt and, since there is no written  procedure, may or may not be allowed to present evidence in rebuttal.
 Contempt of court in a civil suit  is generally not considered to be a criminal offense, with the party  benefiting from the order also holding responsibility for the  enforcement of the order. However, some cases of civil contempt have  been perceived as intending to harm the reputation of the plaintiff, or  to a lesser degree, the judge or the court.
 Sanctions for contempt may be criminal or civil. If a person is to be  punished criminally, then the contempt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but once the charge is proven, then punishment (such as a fine  or, in more serious cases, imprisonment) is imposed unconditionally.  The civil sanction for contempt (which is typically incarceration in the  custody of the sheriff  or similar court officer) is limited in its imposition for so long as  the disobedience to the court's order continues: once the party complies  with the court's order, the sanction is lifted. The imposed party is  said to "hold the keys" to his or her own cell, thus conventional due process is not required.
...............................

So in some cases jail can be for civil problems.


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## applecruncher (Oct 12, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> I don't think this comment was called for......No one here hates the United States, to point out our failings is not hating the country.



And I don't think the constant USA bashing on this site from people living in other countries is "called for".


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## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Really, AC? I recall occasions when you certainly were not reticent in expressing opinions regarding the Canadians. Not our government, which is fair game, but us as a people. Hmmm. One might think you did not like us.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 12, 2015)

[h=1]The Culture of Guns and Misinformation[/h]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/walker-bragman/guns-misinformation_b_2553021.html 

- Snip - 

The recent string of mass shootings, including Sandy Hook, the second deadliest attack by a single shooter in U.S. history, have put gun control at the forefront of the national dialog. Unfortunately, there is no issue more bogged down by falsity. The situation is especially complicated because one side is decidedly more powerful than the other; the NRA outspends the entire gun control lobby by a ratio of 9.5-to-1. *Through lobbying they've even managed to end federal funding for firearms research. For these reasons the internet contains a virtual echo chamber of pro gun websites claiming that gun laws do not work; that more guns lead to lower crime rates as indicated by research from Professor Gary Kleck and author of More Guns, Less Crime, John Lott Jr*. These sites claim that such laws have no effect because statistics indicate that the 1994 assault weapons ban had little impact on gun violence as assault weapons are rarely used in crimes, and because "Chicago/Detroit is more violent than Houston." Chicago's gun laws are stricter than Houston's and Michigan's gun laws are stricter than Texas', depending on which argument is said. *What's more, the pro gun echo chamber asserts, "legal gun owners are not the people committing crimes."* 

*These arguments have been thoroughly debunked. Peer review has refuted both Kleck and Lott's research*. Multiple studies including several by Harvard University found they both overestimate of defensive gun use. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) confirmed these findings and discovered that recreation is the most commonly cited reason for owning a gun. Would that not make guns just like any other recreational vice that has the potential to be destructive? *Studies also indicate a direct correlation between high gun ownership and high levels of violence*. The Washington Post revealed that since the late 1970s violent crime has been declining with gun ownership. Mother Jones, the independent investigative journal found that the number of mass shootings has increased, most dramatically since 2007. *The majority of the guns used in these shootings have been legally purchased which speaks volumes about America's "responsible gun owners*." 

- Snip - 

So how does one measure? There are a few ways. One is to look at violence by region. Another is to see how the U.S. ranks when compared to all of Europe. These statistics paint a picture: *The South has the most guns per capita and the loosest laws. It is by far the most violent region in the country*. Moreover, the U.S. has the loosest gun laws in the first world, the highest number of guns per capita, and the highest rates of gun violence, boasting 15 of the 25 worst mass shootings in the past half century. Another fact to consider is that three of the recent shootings, including Sandy Hook were committed with an AR-15 rifle which was illegal under the now expired '94 Assault Weapons Ban. It is also worth noting the extremely low number of automatic weapons used in crimes as automatic weapons are highly regulated. 

*Of course, today one can simply refuse to acknowledge the evidence, claim conspiracy, and still be taken seriously. Gun rights advocates are prime examples of the power of cognitive dissonance*. Kleck himself responded to criticisms of his research by claiming that all his academic critics letting personal bias cloud their interpretation of the numbers. *Similar claims have been repeated countless times by gun rights advocates nationwide, including conspiracy theorist, Alex Jones, who accuse the media of having an anti-gun agenda*. There are even those who claim that Sandy Hook was a staged event by the government and the media to take away the guns. 

- Snip -


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

You are mistaken AC. There is no hatred of the United States. People like myself and others simply cannot understand the mindset that relies on carrying a gun for personal safety. There are places in this world where people don't feel the need to lock our doors because the risk of not doing so is minimal.

Personally, I refuse to live in fear and I also refuse to live by the gun. I also reject the label 'sheeple' as if I am some kind of prey waiting to be harvested. 

In my world 'stand your ground' means drawing myself up to my full height of 5'1", glaring at someone full in the face and refusing to yield on a matter of principle. It has nothing to do with killing someone who might be wanting to steal my TV. 

Why do we continue to post on this subject? Well, in my case it is because there are so many posts that seem blind to the problem that the US is struggling with - the number and frequency of multiple shootings and other instances of avoidable deaths by gunfire. To us, both the problem and the cause are blindingly obvious - it is the fact that there are just too many firearms in America and there is so little control over who gets their hands on them and what they do with them. Also we cannot understand the mindset that believes that the only way to protect children in the schools is to arm the school teachers. This is so alien to our societies that I for one am unable to remain silent when I hear this people advocating such dystopia.

Surely you don't subscribe to turning teachers into armed body guards? Can't you see that this is a symptom of a society that is losing it's way?

I've visited America and Canada and I didn't feel unsafe anywhere. Everyone we came across was civil and helpful whether we were in a big city or driving through some lonelier regions in some western states. I loved everything that I saw and experienced and I certainly don't hate the United States. If I didn't feel warmly towards your country I would write you off and disengage.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Really, AC? I recall occasions when you certainly were not reticent in expressing opinions regarding the Canadians. Not our government, which is fair game, but us as a people. Hmmm. One might think you did not like us.



Ah, yes but AC will see that differently.  It's okay to bash every other country, just not her country.  There are few people she likes anyway.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> You are mistaken AC. There is no hatred of the United States. People like myself and others simply cannot understand the mindset that relies on carrying a gun for personal safety. There are places in this world where people don't feel the need to lock our doors because the risk of not doing so is minimal.
> 
> Personally, I refuse to live in fear and I also refuse to live by the gun. I also reject the label 'sheeple' as if I am some kind of prey waiting to be harvested.
> 
> ...



Well said, Warrigal!


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## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

When I lived in a house, we never locked our doors during the day. No one but law enforcement  carried hand guns. Few houses had alarms either, except in some of the larger cities.


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## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Annie, if I did not care about the welfare of the American people, I would be silent, rather than set myself up for censure on this forum. I am deeply saddened by the events taking place across the border. Good people should not be forced to live this way.


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## NancyNGA (Oct 12, 2015)

My house doesn't have an alarm system and I often forget to lock the door at night.  It has a tendency to not latch too well so I *try* not to forget.  One morning I found it wide open.  Burglars would have been afraid to enter probably---figuring it was a booby trap.  I did have someone put a key in the lock and try to open it once late on a Saturday night. That was a little frightening at the moment, but by morning I figured it was someone who had a little too much hard cider and went to the wrong house.   If anyone actually ever broke in, I'd probably be more careful from then on, but it hasn't happened yet.


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## BobF (Oct 12, 2015)

I don't have a gun.   For those that don't want a gun, don't buy a gun.   As long as our rate of gun incidents is dropping we are doing OK.   So far, most of the gun incidents were from mental problems, not from rational folks with their registered arms.   

It seems that many of our gun incidents, robberies, gang shootings, and others, are done by the criminal elements that will never stop shooting and killing, just like those house shooters in Australia.   They use stolen or otherwise gotten weapons.   

So this major drive by some gun haters is not going to change a thing at all.   It is the US Constitution that needs to be changed.   Not enough persons or legislators interested in doing that.   If does not matter if you are citizen or visitor to this US discussion.   It will not get changed till the legislature gets interested in it and until enough voters agree, there won't be enough legislatures elected.   

This is truly an overworked discussion and not gaining any real gains in the public.   But of course it is fun to call those uninterested in this anti gun nonsense to be stupid, ignorant, crazy, and all the other hateful word that some love to use.


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## RadishRose (Oct 12, 2015)

I never lock my door either during the day. Sometimes we forget at night, too. I never feel afraid.


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## imp (Oct 12, 2015)

*No Intent of "Stirring" the Soup*

*"It has nothing to do with killing someone who might be wanting to steal my TV"
*
Those of us who have thought through the possibility of a violent confrontation, and studied the intricacies of self defense know that theft cannot be dealt with lethally.
*
**
"Can't you see that this is a symptom of a society that is losing it's way?"

*No doubt about it! However, while an entire country's society is at stake, statistics taken from elsewhere regarding violence fail to address the intangible factor of cultural difference, basic mores, which are at work. Thus, I cannot yield away from my own stance of never relinquishing my right to defend myself or my loved ones, by using the best tools at hand.
*

"If I didn't feel warmly towards your country I would write you off and disengage."

*I truly believe you here. Evidence enough has shone through the arguments and my own hard-headedness, that you are always capable of weighing the issues carefully.    imp


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## Underock1 (Oct 12, 2015)

One of the main attractions of this forum for me is getting the views of people outside of my own country, whether approving or disapproving. So call 'em as you see 'em. Please! I wish we had more countries represented here.
Having lived in the US for 82 years, I have never witnessed a gun incident or had a friend or family member become a victim. 
Still; looking at a number of seemingly untouchable cultural attitudes here, it is my considered opinion that taken as a whole, we _are _nuts!


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

Each country and society is nuts in uniquely different ways.

After the Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race, this is our most famous regatta - the Henley on Todd held annually in Alice Springs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWC6jxbNGzc


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## Underock1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Each country and society is nuts in uniquely different ways.
> 
> After the Sydney to Hobart Yacht Race, this is our most famous regatta - the Henley on Todd held annually in Alice Springs.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWC6jxbNGzc



 :jumelles:  Thanks Warri. I enjoyed that. I have always enjoyed the Australian sense of humor. Loved Paul Hogan. Love this. I'll take this kind of nuttiness anytime. Definitely the type of humor that went on in our family over the years.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> :jumelles:  Thanks Warri. I enjoyed that. I have always enjoyed the Australian sense of humor. Loved Paul Hogan. Love this. I'll take this kind of nuttiness anytime. Definitely the type of humor that went on in our family over the years.



I did think it might be time to wind this thread up on a lighter note but given that we are now up to 12 pages it might not be so easy to let it go.

For those who have the stomach for it, I have started a new related topic. https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...neration-that-has-Never-Known-a-Mass-Shooting


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## Butterfly (Oct 12, 2015)

BobF said:


> News to me that civil court don't do jail time.   That court lady in Kentucky was jailed for not following court rules.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_court
> 
> ...



Only for contempt.  The clerk was jailed for her contempt of court.   Courts in the US cannot order jail time or "fines" in response to civil litigation. They can only award damages or order someone to do something like repair something or replace something or quit doing something.

I also note that the rules you quote above are Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and only hold true in federal courts.  State Rules of Civil Procedure vary from state to state.


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## Underock1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> I did think it might be time to wind this thread up on a lighter note but given that we are now up to 12 pages it might not be so easy to let it go.
> 
> For those who have the stomach for it, I have started a new related topic. https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...neration-that-has-Never-Known-a-Mass-Shooting



Well I'm done here, and I started this thread. Do I have the right to close it?  :stop: *Stop! Stop, I say!*


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## imp (Oct 12, 2015)

Never say "never"!   imp


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## imp (Oct 12, 2015)

*"Each country and society is nuts"......

*Warri, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing your use of this phrase, and got to wondering: did you "adopt" it from elsewhere in the thread for use here, or is such usage general over there? It's an old, old phrase here in America, having several somewhat differing connotations. Usually, it equates to "somewhat imbalanced", or "uniquely different", sometimes it infers reference to the fruit of trees: 

* At one critical junction in history, Leo Szilard, the first physicist to see the possibility of fission chain reactions and hence practical nuclear weapons, was trying to persuade Enrico Fermi to take the issue seriously, in the company of a more prestigious friend, Isidor Rabi:**I said to him:  "Did you talk to Fermi?"  Rabi said, "Yes, I did."  I said, "What did Fermi say?"  Rabi said, "Fermi said 'Nuts!'"  So I said, "Why did he say 'Nuts!'?" and Rabi said, "Well, I don't know, but he is in and we can ask him." So we went over to Fermi's office, and Rabi said to Fermi, "Look, Fermi, I told you what Szilard thought and you said ‘Nuts!' and Szilard wants to know why you said ‘Nuts!'" So Fermi said, "Well… there is the remote possibility that neutrons may be emitted in the fission of uranium and then of course perhaps a chain reaction can be made." Rabi said, "What do you mean by ‘remote possibility'?" and Fermi said, "Well, ten per cent." Rabi said, "Ten per cent is not a remote possibility if it means that we may die of it.  If I have pneumonia and the doctor tells me that there is a remote possibility that I might die, and it's ten percent, I get excited about it."  (Quoted in 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb' by Richard Rhodes.)*


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Annie, if I did not care about the welfare of the American people, I would be silent, rather than set myself up for censure on this forum. I am deeply saddened by the events taking place across the border. Good people should not be forced to live this way.



I know you do. It makes me very sad as well as it is, after all, my home country and where all my family live. I don't remember it being like this when I lived there. Has it changed that much in 15 years or did I have blinders on before?


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> I never lock my door either during the day. Sometimes we forget at night, too. I never feel afraid.



Same here. No reason to worry due to the area I live in. It would be different if I was in a big city.

In the US my sister and at least two of her kids have alarm systems on their houses. And they live in suburbs, not a big city. I doubt any have guns.


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## Warrigal (Oct 13, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Well I'm done here, and I started this thread. Do I have the right to close it?  :stop: *Stop! Stop, I say!*



:grin: You can try Underock but once started these topics tend to develop a will of their own, like rogue robots. They can ignore their creator, even turn on him with ferocious intent.


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## Underock1 (Oct 13, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> :grin: You can try Underock but once started these topics tend to develop a will of their own, like rogue robots. They can ignore their creator, even turn on him with ferocious intent.




:wave: Have fun! I'm outta' here.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I know you do. It makes me very sad as well as it is, after all, my home country and where all my family live. I don't remember it being like this when I lived there. Has it changed that much in 15 years or did I have blinders on before?



Yes... I agree... the last 15 years  and particularly the last 8.... It seems like the combination punch of 9/11 and the election of a Black president really did some damage to our national psyche  for some reason...


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

Yes, 9/11 was about 18 months after I'd moved away.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, 9/11 was about 18 months after I'd moved away.



So let's examine that for a minute..   9/11 was the first time the US was attacked in on our own soil.  At least such a major attack.  Other countries, particularly Europe understood more what that is like..   SO... it was the first time that many Americans realized that we were hated so much by a culture.. ie.... Islamic extremists.  Up until that time.. the vast majority believed the entire world adored us.. and wanted to be just like us... and envied us... and so on.   It was a rude awakening to be sure.    To top that off.. these people were "different"... they had an "odd" religion and odd names.. They weren't "like" us.   and they used methods of warfare that was completely foreign to us..  Sneak attacks and covert operations..  Odd weapons too...  airplanes.. or who knew what else.   So.. Americans had the option of arming themselves and they did... paranoia set in.. How could our huge military protect us from THAT?  

Enter Barack HUSEIN Obama...   Not only was his name odd...  he was BLACK!!   OMG... two of White America's biggest fears rolled into one.   Not only did racism come into play... but Islamophobia... because anyone with a name like that simply had to be one of "Them"...  So started the campaign to paint Obama in that light.  One of "THEM"....  Black..... Muslim.... was is a surprise that people believed he was coming to get them?   Coming to take their guns for whatever nefarious reasons..  Conspiracy theories sprung up like mushrooms and gun sales skyrocketed.. Of course none of that was or is true.. but in reality something like 62% of republicans believe some of it, or all of it. .    Is it a wonder that the crazies are feeding into this national psychosis and acting out?  Particularly with the easy availability of guns.. ?


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

QS, that's it in a nutshell.  I've been accused here of being anti-American. But if I still lived there I'd be allowed to say the same things. I was a blind patriot when I lived there, but the blinders came off when I moved across the pond. I'm not anti US but anti all the crap that has and is going on there.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> QS, that's it in a nutshell.  I've been accused here of being anti-American. But if I still lived there I'd be allowed to say the same things. I was a blind patriot when I lived there, but the blinders came off when I moved across the pond. I'm not anti US but anti all the crap that has and is going on there.



It embarrasses me as well...  In fact.. I've been told on this forum that I should perhaps leave the US if I hated it so...  Fact is... I LOVE my country and would like to see her be better..  That's not hating America... that's loving it.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> It embarrasses me as well...  In fact.. I've been told on this forum that I should perhaps leave the US if I hated it so...  Fact is... I LOVE my country and would like to see her be better..  That's not hating America... that's loving it.



Ditto. Same here. I hate what is happening to it and want to be a great country again.


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## BobF (Oct 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So let's examine that for a minute..   9/11 was the first time the US was attacked in on our own soil.  At least such a major attack.  Other countries, particularly Europe understood more what that is like..   SO... it was the first time that many Americans realized that we were hated so much by a culture.. ie.... Islamic extremists.  Up until that time.. the vast majority believed the entire world adored us.. and wanted to be just like us... and envied us... and so on.   It was a rude awakening to be sure.    To top that off.. these people were "different"... they had an "odd" religion and odd names.. They weren't "like" us.   and they used methods of warfare that was completely foreign to us..  Sneak attacks and covert operations..  Odd weapons too...  airplanes.. or who knew what else.   So.. Americans had the option of arming themselves and they did... paranoia set in.. How could our huge military protect us from THAT?
> 
> Enter Barack HUSEIN Obama...   Not only was his name odd...  he was BLACK!!   OMG... two of White America's biggest fears rolled into one.   Not only did racism come into play... but Islamophobia... because anyone with a name like that simply had to be one of "Them"...  So started the campaign to paint Obama in that light.  One of "THEM"....  Black..... Muslim.... was is a surprise that people believed he was coming to get them?   Coming to take their guns for whatever nefarious reasons..  Conspiracy theories sprung up like mushrooms and gun sales skyrocketed.. Of course none of that was or is true.. but in reality something like 62% of republicans believe some of it, or all of it. .    Is it a wonder that the crazies are feeding into this national psychosis and acting out?  Particularly with the easy availability of guns.. ?



For my perspective, it is not Obama the 'black man' that is the problem at all.   Race has not been a problem since he arrived.   

But the way he has run our government with not much done through the Congress and the ever increasing debts that so many see and worry about.   His mishandling of our Constitution and the ways we are supposed to be living within the US.   Those are some of the problems that have folks ready for someone less ready to destroy what over 200 years of experience have brought us.   Some of Obama's ideas run from the federal government are supposed to have been run by the states if they wanted them, or ignored by the states.   

So it is not that he is a 'black man' at all, just the way he is operating outside the limits of the Constitution.    He has shown himself to be a poor leader for the US.

Looking forward to next year and the election as then, hopefully, we will have a real leader for the US take over.   Either party will do, just as long as they take us back into the Constitutional ways that helped the US to stay strong for over 200 years.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

Bob, race is not a problem??!! It has gotten worse. Get your head out of the sand!


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## BobF (Oct 13, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Bob, race is not a problem??!! It has gotten worse. Get your head out of the sand!



If you believe that race is worse now than it was before Obama became President, you have a twisted mind for sure.


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## Jackie22 (Oct 13, 2015)

Just the fact that President Obama is not given credit for his accomplishments by so many is due to simple racism...IMO.


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## BobF (Oct 13, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Just the fact that President Obama is not given credit for his accomplishments by so many is due to simple racism...IMO.



He does get credit for what he has done correctly.   He does also get blamed for his poor attention to the budget and the gross debt he has allowed to develop, as the public does give credit or blame to all politicians in this country.

It is not racist at all.


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2015)

Not wishing to further stir the pot, but purely in the interest of fairness, I would like to remind certain recent posters that shortly after the Phil/Shali/QS/ upset on this thread, QS posted an apology. I also apologise for any hurt my words may have caused. In the heat  of the moment, none of us are perfect. Pax, and let us try for a new understanding among friends.:love_heart:


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Not wishing to further stir the pot, but purely in the interest of fairness, I would like to remind certain recent posters that shortly after the Phil/Shali/QS/ upset on this thread, QS posted an apology. I also apologise for any hurt my words may have caused. In the heat  of the moment, none of us are perfect. Pax, and let us try for a new understanding among friends.:love_heart:




Thank you Shali....   I really don't know why some are so eager to stir up trouble...  Boring lives perhaps...    So again I apologize for having lost my temper... We all have our sensitive issues... that is mine... I will try in the future to not let that color my responses..

In addition, anyone speaking to our friend Phil.... tell him I shall be happy to accept HIS apology and will gladly re-extend mine..


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

BobF said:


> If you believe that race is worse now than it was before Obama became President, you have a twisted mind for sure.


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2015)

Jeez, even in the isolated Great White North, we come out of our igloos, mush the dogs, and marvel in the dark at how having a black President illustrates just how close to the surface racism lurks among certain segments of America.


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## Hanfonius (Oct 13, 2015)

Will I ever press the 'Send' button at the end of these words?

.... the answer turns out to be NO...

Instead of the words I wanted to say,  let me say this.

Since 1998,  my wife and I have spent six months each year living in the States,  and we love the country and the people.
We tried to take up citizenship,  but because we are white Europeans,  this is not possible.
...   Had we been off-white,  things would have been so much easier.

Yes,  there are some things wrong with the States,  but you are a democratic country that shines a bright light around the world.   You are an example of what can be achieved with your national pride.

You are a proud nation.   Never allow anybody to take away that pride or your freedom.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

The fact that we can have these debates and are free to speak our minds is part of the greatness...  We are after all one big dysfunctional family..


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2015)

You bet, QS, with foreign relations. Lolololol.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 13, 2015)

LOL.  True QS and Shali.


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## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2015)

Hey, we are mixed nuts, in a good way. Lolololol.


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## Misty (Oct 13, 2015)

Good Post, Hanfonius.  In my opinion, I think the anti gun group are the ones spreading paranoia, such as  gun owners are killers waiting to happen, because they are following their constitutional right to own guns. Most gun owners are law abiding citizens....it's the criminals that need to be stopped. Gun free zones are turning into kill zones. They are letting criminals and mentally unbalanced people know there are vulnerable people inside. How many people would post a sign outside their home advertising it's a gun free zone?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

I kind of like my Constitutional RIGHT to not be shot while going about my business... shopping... working.... watching a movie...etc...  AND the last thing we need is everyone and their brother shooting in every direction to "protect" us...   I see a whole lot more people killed that way..     Imagine if people were armed in that darkened movie theater..  How many more would have been killed by "friendly fire".     It would be pure bedlam...   I prefer to take my chances in being hit by a madman than having two dozen well meaning "marksmen" firing randomly in any direction they THINK the shots are coming from..  I imagine them all shooting one another.. and a few innocent people as collateral damage.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 13, 2015)

Misty said:


> In my opinion, I think the anti gun group are the ones spreading paranoia, such as  gun owners are killers waiting to happen, because they are following their constitutional right to own guns. Most gun owners are law abiding citizens....it's the criminals that need to be stopped. Gun free zones are turning into kill zones. They are letting criminals and mentally unbalanced people know there are vulnerable people inside.



I agree with you Misty.  I've said many times before that the majority of gun owners in America are responsible law-abiding citizens.  Gun-free zones are definitely the targets in many of these shootings done by mentally disturbed people, many of whom are on harmful pharmaceuticals for anxiety or depression, which have side effects of wanting to commit homicide or suicide.  But nobody learns from this, that's why it will happen again and again.  Then on the anniversary of each incident, the media will revive the fear by covering the incident again, for another week or so, very similar to brainwashing.

 The positive news about guns don't make the headlines, lucky if there's a tiny blurb in the newspaper about it.  I know the mainstream media loves to run with any of these shooting stories, to put fear into the hearts of the public, and promote their agenda, and it's working like a charm.  

The criminals on the streets, especially gangs, do most of the killing.  They all get their guns off the streets illegally, and will continue to do so regardless of any new gun laws.  When the death numbers rise due to _those _killings, it doesn't make the headlines, wonder why the government doesn't focus in on that.  If they get a handle on the street/gang crime, the numbers of homicides would drop dramatically.  Those in power prefer not to do anything about the criminal element in the United States, they'd rather target the average American citizen instead.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

Except.. as I stated above... it takes a whole lot of skill to assess a shooting situation and determine what to shoot back at..   This is a skill that most ordinary gun owners simply do not have.  Can you imagine a shooter being fired at by someone.. and ANOTHER someone comes along and is not sure WHICH shooter to fire at?  Then an a few dozen more...  Owning and shooting a gun is one thing... Shooting and hitting the right target quite another... 

As for the old saw... "Only the criminals will have guns".... well Duh..... that's why they are called criminals... They don't obey ANY laws anyway.. so maybe we should do away with all laws... I mean.. since criminals are going to break them...


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## Misty (Oct 13, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree with you Misty.  I've said many times before that the majority of gun owners in America are responsible law-abiding citizens.  Gun-free zones are definitely the targets in many of these shootings done by mentally disturbed people, many of whom are on harmful pharmaceuticals for anxiety or depression, which have side effects of wanting to commit homicide or suicide.  But nobody learns from this, that's why it will happen again and again.  Then on the anniversary of each incident, the media will revive the fear by covering the incident again, for another week or so, very similar to brainwashing.
> 
> The positive news about guns don't make the headlines, lucky if there's a tiny blurb in the newspaper about it.  I know the mainstream media loves to run with any of these shooting stories, to put fear into the hearts of the public, and promote their agenda, and it's working like a charm.
> 
> The criminals on the streets, especially gangs, do most of the killing.  They all get their guns off the streets illegally, and will continue to do so regardless of any new gun laws.  When the death numbers rise due to _those _killings, it doesn't make the headlines, wonder why the government doesn't focus in on that.  If they get a handle on the street/gang crime, the numbers of homicides would drop dramatically.  Those in power prefer not to do anything about the criminal element in the United States, they'd rather target the average American citizen instead.



So true, Seabreeze, about the young mentally ill, who are going into schools, and killing students. They have been on antidepressants, which you mentioned the side effects of those, and also they have been playing video games. Many of the video games today are so violent and so life like, and they show killing and killing police officers etc. When I went to school, there were many gun owners and there were never any school shootings. There were not any violent video games or very violent movies as there are today either. Why are these not being investigated and stopped? They could have a big influence on the mindset of the killers in the mass murders happening today. Where is the media outrage against these?


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## oldman (Oct 13, 2015)

I have guns in my home and from time to time, my son and I will go to the range and try to outdo the other. I was given the opportunity to have a handgun in the cockpit when I flew for United. I generally flew coast to coast, meaning that I had a lot of fuel on-board and that made my plane a pretty big bomb if it were to be used to fly into a building. I declined. Too many hoops to jump through and besides, with the new cockpit doors that were put on all aircraft (and not to mention the air marshals), I felt very secure.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 13, 2015)

We have guns too oldman, and get out in the woods a couple of times a year for some fun target practice.  I don't conceal carry, but would someday if I felt the need to, haven't had a desire to yet.


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## BobF (Oct 13, 2015)

For those afraid to go anywhere in the US because of gun ownership for regular citizens.    You can go just about anywhere you want and be perfectly safe.   Most of us do this everyday with no problems at all.   It has become a way over hyped idea that the US is unsafe all the time and everywhere.    

I have stayed in Chicago, some years back, visiting my wife's family.    When we would leave a house, say north Chicago suburbs and head south to other family members, we were told by a cousin then a Chicago policeman, to be aware of suspicious actions, leave space between us and the car ahead so we can turn and get gone.   Especially important at stop lights.   Don't get trapped so you can not maneuver and run away if someone tries to break into the car while waiting for the light.

Anyway, none of the times when visiting the Chicago area were we in trouble.   We did see drug selling going on.   We did apply our cousins advice at stop signs and traffic lights.   We visited lots of Chicago's high lights by also having to drive through some low light areas.   It can be done everyday and is done everyday by thousands of folks.   

We are in general a very safe place to live and visit if from out of town or from another country.


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## Linda (Oct 13, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> One of the main attractions of this forum for me is getting the views of people outside of my own country, whether approving or disapproving. So call 'em as you see 'em. Please! I wish we had more countries represented here.
> Having lived in the US for 82 years, I have never witnessed a gun incident or had a friend or family member become a victim.
> Still; looking at a number of seemingly untouchable cultural attitudes here, it is my considered opinion that taken as a whole, we _are _nuts!


I wish we had more countries represented on this forum too.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 13, 2015)

BobF said:


> For those afraid to go anywhere in the US because of gun ownership for regular citizens.    You can go just about anywhere you want and be perfectly safe.   Most of us do this everyday with no problems at all.   It has become a way over hyped idea that the US is unsafe all the time and everywhere.
> 
> I have stayed in Chicago, some years back, visiting my wife's family.    When we would leave a house, say north Chicago suburbs and head south to other family members, we were told by a cousin then a Chicago policeman, to be aware of suspicious actions, leave space between us and the car ahead so we can turn and get gone.   Especially important at stop lights.   Don't get trapped so you can not maneuver and run away if someone tries to break into the car while waiting for the light.
> 
> ...



Chicago is no different or worse than other large metropolitan area..   There are inner city neighborhoods where poverty is rampant... inviting drug dealing and gangs..  As a native of a large city, you learn what areas are and are not advisable to visit.. and if you have to ... you learn when go, what time of day,  and how to stay safe.   Generally, gangs have no interest in passers by...  They are concerned with other gangs and protecting their turf and selling drugs..  unfortunately...( and you can ask any Chicago cop, and I know quite a few,) gang members are notoriously BAD shots... they aim one way and shoot another.. this is why they end up hitting unintended targets..


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## Linda (Oct 13, 2015)

oldman said:


> I have guns in my home and from time to time, my son and I will go to the range and try to outdo the other. I was given the opportunity to have a handgun in the cockpit when I flew for United. I generally flew coast to coast, meaning that I had a lot of fuel on-board and that made my plane a pretty big bomb if it were to be used to fly into a building. I declined. Too many hoops to jump through and besides, with the new cockpit doors that were put on all aircraft (and not to mention the air marshals), I felt very secure.


 Glad you posted that oldman, you answered some things I've been wondering about.  I especially like the idea of air marshals on board.  Did you happen to see the movie Bridesmaids?  It has a very funny scene between Melissa McCarthy and (her real life husband) an air marshal.


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## tnthomas (Oct 14, 2015)

quicksilver said:


>



+1 q.f.t.


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Here is an interesting twist.
> 
> What if the sellers of firearms were held responsible for their stock being sold to straw buyers who on sell to people who shouldn't have guns?
> 
> http://www.wisconsingazette.com/wisconsin/trial-against-wisconsin-gun-shop-enters-final-week.html



The court has decided against the gun sellers. I'm sure there will be an appeal.



> *Gun Control Advocates Eye a New Strategy: Taking Firearms Dealers to Court*
> 
> Josh Sanburn
> Oct. 14, 2015
> ...



The jury awarded the wounded officers nearly $6 million in compensatory and punitive damages. There will be an appeal.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wa...adger-guns-lawsuit-b99596217z1-332567372.html


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Putting it in perspective... I think this opinion piece does just that. It is from a newish publication - Huffington Post Australia http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dale-hansen/nra-isnt-serious-about-st_b_8295770.html?ir=Australia

I think the writer counters many of the NRA's arguments with logic and some pertinent statistics. I have not checked the validity of those stats but they seem to be in accordance with stats I have looked up previously. The one about 133 of 166 mass shootings occurring the US since the turn of the century being disproportionate to the US population is new to me.

Bobf, please pay attention to the argument about Switzerland and the low rate of gun violence. Perhaps you could find out exactly what the Swiss restrictions are and consider whether they might be beneficial in the US to reduce the number of mass shootings.



> *NRA Isn't Serious About Stopping Gun Violence*
> 
> Posted:             15/10/2015
> 
> ...


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## BobF (Oct 15, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Bobf, please pay attention to the argument about Switzerland and the low rate of gun violence. Perhaps you could find out exactly what the Swiss restrictions are and consider whether they might be beneficial in the US to reduce the number of mass shootings.



 A few years back I was watching the Swiss guns and ways with them.   Maybe they have changed by now.   Back then they had no problems with guns in the homes.    Many were of military assigned but they could also have personal guns, and many of those would be the ones the military might sell to them after their service was done.   There were no problems with them having weapons visible while riding public transportation or when entering restaurants for meals.   The communities held gun days and everyone that wanted to would show up for gun matches.

I will have to relook at the Swiss ways with weapons, they may have changed.    But in two years or so, I doubt it would be much.   In the US it is not big deal for anyone but the dedicated anti gun folks and there are some of those.    But not enough to make it an issue in our Congress.   Even many of our legislators are gun collectors and shooters.

And as I keep saying, in the US our gun problems are reducing in rates, so we must be on the right track.


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Your rate of mass shootings is certainly not falling. It's getting worse over time.
This is the problem that really needs some serious consideration IMO. 
For this issue I do not think you can say that you are on the right track.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 15, 2015)

Yeah... just like two freight trains rushing toward each other are on the right track


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## imp (Oct 15, 2015)

*Firearms Dealers vs. Private Sales*

Perhaps many gun dealers will cease doing business after precedence is set as outlined above.

We (friends, relatives) have always made it a point when purchasing a firearm of doing so via private transaction. That particular act is not illegal, and may never be made so, according to some experts. There is risk inherent in such buying. An arm obtained privately _might _have been stolen, or used in the commission of a crime. OTOH, police routinely run serial number checks of firearms in use at sporting events, private target shoots, and at shooting ranges. The arms they check are in the hands of private individuals; presumably, used guns offered for sale by dealers have already been thusly checked.

Now, once back outside of Phoenix, a friend and I were target shooting at the base of Carver Mountain, about 1/2 mile from my home. A County cop drove up from the road below, and told us a call had been made complaining of shooting. I pointed out to him that the closest inhabited dwelling was farther away than 1/4 mile, the specific legal call-out in State Law. He agreed we were not breaking the law, but required us to allow him to run our serial numbers. 

The problem with that is this: What if? What if he lies, or mistakenly enters digits incorrectly, and claims my gun had been reported stolen at some point in time? He then has recourse to, minimally, confiscate, maximally, charge me with a crime. OTOH, let's say I bought my gun from an individual whom I did not know, and HE had obtained it through theft. What makes that particular gun any different from one I bought from a dealer? If thieves stole, let's say, your PIANO, while you were away on vacation, would as large a fuss be raised as would have, had a gun been stolen? Probably not.

As far as I can tell, the issues with firearms will NEVER be resolved. This belief is supported by having learned that in non-gun Australia, hooligans are still in possession, and use them to shoot at buildings.   imp


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

QS, what is your assessment of the HuffPost article? 
Is it a fair representation of the NRA arguments?


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## Susie (Oct 15, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Your rate of mass shootings is certainly not falling. It's getting worse over time.
> This is the problem that really needs some serious consideration IMO.
> For this issue I do not think you can say that you are on the right track.


I aint reedin this stuff about guns no more--it's for Americans ONLY, not OUTSIDERS!


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Susie I applaud your decision not to read any more but I disagree with your restriction on posters.



Christopher Lane was an outsider but he was still shot in the back while jogging in Duncan, Oklahoma by three "bored" teenagers who decided to kill someone for fun. He's just as dead an American victims.


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## BobF (Oct 15, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Your rate of mass shootings is certainly not falling. It's getting worse over time.
> This is the problem that really needs some serious consideration IMO.
> For this issue I do not think you can say that you are on the right track.



Show me proof of that and I will look for the stats I was referring too.


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## BobF (Oct 15, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Susie I applaud your decision not to read any more but I disagree with your restriction on posters.
> 
> View attachment 22836
> 
> Christopher Lane was an outsider but he was still shot in the back while jogging in Duncan, Oklahoma by three "bored" teenagers who decided to kill someone for fun. He's just as dead an American victims.



When did this happen?


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

In 2013. The boys were charged and have been tried.

You wouldn't remember because he was just another victim out of so many but we remember because he was one of ours and was showing so much promise as an athlete and sportsman. Also, he was a lovely young man. And it was so senseless.


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## BobF (Oct 15, 2015)

OK, here is the link I was remembering.    It summarizes up through 2010, I think.    It was published in 21013.    Rate is going down and has for years.

I really don't expect you to believe it as you have definitely shown a hard headed hate guns attitude.   That is bad for rational thinking about guns.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

       [h=1]Rate Of U.S. Gun Violence Has Fallen Since 1993, Study Says[/h]             
                       May 07, 2013 5:06 PM ET    
              Bill Chappell


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

BobF said:


> Show me proof of that and I will look for the stats I was referring too.



Challenge accepted. As I look around I'll post anything of interest I come across.

Here is the first bit. It indicates the proportion of guns used in mass shootings (usually defined as 4 or more victims) that were obtained legally. I haven't seen this before so I'm sharing it.

Overwhelmingly the majority of guns used in mass shootings were legally obtained.



Still looking for the stats you were asking about.


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

I've found a site that details mass shootings (as distinct from mass murders) but it only begins for 2013.

This is the site http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 and from the downloaded spreadsheets here is a summary:

2013: Number of mass shootings 363number dead 502 and number injured 1266
2014: Number of mass shootings 336, number dead 383 and number injured 1239
2015 (to Oct 10) Number of mass shootings 300, number dead 381 and number injured 1109

There is insufficient data to support or refute the claim that that frequency/rate of mass shootings is in decline, especially as we are only in October for 2015.

Remember that to qualify for this data base there must be 4 or more victims killed or injured. Chris Lane wouldn't count because he was the only one to die or be injured in that shooting.


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Bob, I'm about to give up for a while because I getting dozy but you might be interested in this FBI report into another category - 'active shooter' events. 
 I haven't read it all but it looks interesting.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...r-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013


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## fureverywhere (Oct 15, 2015)

It boils down to one of my bumper stickers..."Gun nuts, are keeping us from protecting ourselves from Nuts with guns"


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## imp (Oct 15, 2015)

Interesting chart, Warri. The green portion, then, would presumably include guns obtained outside of dealer-purchased channels, such as bought from strangers, inherited, stolen, borrowed, home-made, etc. I'm just deliberating here on the probable definitions in use. 

If indeed the majority of guns used in mass killings were "obtained legally", then clearly the route of purchase is being used to pursue illegal use. Now, if we could take the total numbers of firearms legally purchased during the period of stats being considered, my _guess _would be that during the 30-year interval considered, at _least 20 million, _very likely much more that even, firearms were purchased in America legally. You studied statistics. 50 mass killing usages in 30 years, considering ONLY the numbers of arms purchased during that time interval, and NOT considering the 100 million or more already having been legally purchased, one should be able to predict that few arms should be so used in the future. Yet, it DON'T work that way.

Thus, is the mindset of the American public becoming les and less hospitable toward itself? Everyday folks have guns. Too many are today using them egregiously. "Mass killing"  seems to have come about full-circle during a span covering less than my lifetime. Yet, I suspect the percentage of Americans possessing firearms is no greater today than say, in 1950. 

You feel, then, that restricting the ability of all civilians to legally purchase firearms, will quell this killing trend? What if it doesn't? Do you feel that if the purchase of firearms in your country were to become legal, murders would skyrocket?  Just wondering.    imp


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

imp said:


> Do you feel that if the purchase of firearms in your country were to become legal, murders would skyrocket?  Just wondering.    imp



I can't answer that question but I can point to something that is currently in the news.

Recently a 15 year old Muslim boy, armed with a revolver, went to the local police station intending to kill a policeman. When a target didn't present itself outside the building he approached a police worker from behind and killed him with one shot. The man was an accountant in his fifties. Then two special police constables came out and the boy was killed in an exchange of gunfire.

The Federal police raided the local mosque, several homes and other buildings and rounded up some men and boys suspected of having a part in this incident. Two have now been charged with terrorism related offences because apart from this incident, they appear to have been recruiting more boys and planning further attacks.

But the significant point is that they have been having great difficulty sourcing another gun. The first was obtained from a ME gang but they have been trying to get another one since January. It's impossible to anonymously obtain a legal gun in Australia and not terribly easy to get an illegal one either.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...tis-cheng-murder/story-fnitcyla-1227570238260


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Imp, the chart I posted earlier was found on a Mother Jones site, whatever that is.
You might find explanation about the data that it represents here http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map


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## imp (Oct 15, 2015)

*"It's impossible to anonymously obtain a legal gun in Australia and not terribly easy to get an illegal one either."

*But not impossible to obtain a gun legally, then sell it to another individual? Foolish act, as when the gun happens to be used illicitly, it traces back to the jerk who bought and then sold it.

What about legal purchase using fraudulent ID? We have a rash of Identity Theft going on here the last few years, involving not only personal ID (Social Security Numbers), but also credit cards. My own ID (SS #) employed by an individual 4  states away, who filed with IRS for a Tax Refund, using MY NAME & NUMBER! How obtained, no clues. 2 credit cards have  been DUPLICATED, somehow, and used for frivolous, everyday purchases, gasoline, hamburgers, thousands of miles away from the card nestled in my hip pocket! 

Obviously, one having ability to duplicate plastic cards accurately, would not personally use them, but rather sell them to miscreants who have no wherewithal of their own.  Very few retailers ask to compare name on card to ID name.   imp


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

imp said:


> *"It's impossible to anonymously obtain a legal gun in Australia and not terribly easy to get an illegal one either."
> 
> *But not impossible to obtain a gun legally, then sell it to another individual? Foolish act, as when the gun happens to be used illicitly, it traces back to the jerk who bought and then sold it. Yes, the guns are registered to the person with the licence.
> 
> ...



In the case of the would be terrorists, several of them were on a watch list and even entering a gun shop might have set off alarms. I have no idea how the surveillance is carried out. The gun was transferred to the boy at the mosque but even there, there are CCTV cameras. The men entered the women's area to make the transfer because there are no cameras there.


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## Warrigal (Oct 15, 2015)

Imp, since I really don't know what the regulations are I've found a reliablel source.



> [h=3]How easy is it to get a firearm in Australia?[/h]A spokeswoman for the Australian Institute of Criminology told SBS a person looking to own a firearm in this country needs both a licence and a permit. To obtain a licence, they must be:
> 
> 
> 18 years or over
> ...



There are quite a few firearms stolen each year - mostly rifles and shotguns. Details at the link.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 16, 2015)

Good video:


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## BobF (Oct 16, 2015)

Warrigal, I depend on the data that was claimed to be government records.    That is really the only type of data I will look at.   All these other some one sources mean nothing but that someone is trying to make a point.   Spot incidents do not make any trend at all.    I have posted this list of government sources before with no challenges from anyone that I remember.   To me they are much more reliable than any of these twisted minds of the anti gun folks out trying to make an issue.


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## oldman (Oct 16, 2015)

16 pages of comments and no real solutions. The only real answer is to disarm America and if or when that would come about, I will be making reservations to be out of the country. After all, even attempting to scale down to who can and who cannot own guns is a risk that I would not want to take as a politician. Going forward, we may be able to do something by limiting who can and who cannot own a weapon, but everyone else will have to be Grandfathered under the old rules, unless we want to go through another Civil War.

As for me and my guns, I would not want to give them up, but certainly would to comply, if that would be the law. However, I would still rather see us that have guns now be Grandfathered and those coming under any new laws be made to comply. I said this before, maybe in another thread, that I am aware of some people that I know that owns multitudes of guns. One fellow in particular owns 92 rifles and handguns. He says he is a collector, but only maybe 4 or 5 have any actual value as being a collectible gun. We have numerous gun raffles year round here to take a chance on winning new guns. This has been going on for decades. Some guys just keep on winning and stockpiling weapons. I do believe that some rationing of ammo is still in effect, is it not?


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2015)

Law enforcement has some ideas - more effective checks on people wanting to buy guns.



> *Law enforcement coalition calls on Congress to bolster background checks*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## QuickSilver (Oct 27, 2015)

Interesting side note..  We had a shooting and killing of 3 people at a factory just a few blocks from here yesterday..  Just a big Yawn....  the next one will be bigger and better.  /sarcasm


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2015)

BobF said:


> Warrigal, I depend on the data that was claimed to be government records.    That is really the only type of data I will look at.   All these other some one sources mean nothing but that someone is trying to make a point.   Spot incidents do not make any trend at all.    I have posted this list of government sources before with no challenges from anyone that I remember.   To me they are much more reliable than any of these twisted minds of the anti gun folks out trying to make an issue.




You know what Bob.  I think that your comment about people who don't like guns and want them regulated, 'having twisted minds' is kind of offensive!  Seriously, you're the one who wants to hang onto something that has a primary purpose of taking lives away......people like me and a bunch of others here are simply the other side of the story and want to SAVE lives.  

I watched a news magazine show this morning and they were talking about guns in Canada.  A woman did a documentary that's apparently outstanding and spent a couple years talking to both sides.  She even let Canada's top 'gun enthusiast' teach her to shoot so that she would know his side of the discussion from a personal standpoint.  And she looked at the statistics that are provided by both your government and ours.

According to her research which she based on some US study, there are ten states which are primarily responsible (due to lax/non-existent gun laws) for the weapons that are used in violent crimes.  And while Toronto has seen the use of American guns in criminal acts, drop from 70% to 50%, in some cities apparently the rate is 90%.

Later in the program, I was listening to some criminologist in the US being interviewed and he said there is empirical evidence that there are higher rates of death among the population that own guns.....than among the population that don't own guns.  So if that is the case, it would appear that the bleating of the NRA about how you need guns to keep you safe from crime, is nonsense......but it's nonsense that's been bought by the public.

The documentary by the way, is called 'Up In Arms' and while I know I can view it in Canada, I don't know if you can in the US.  I did find it though and you could try the link:

[video]http://upinarms.ca/#[/video]


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## QuickSilver (Oct 27, 2015)

> Later in the program, I was listening to some criminologist in the US being interviewed and he said there is empirical evidence that there are higher rates of death among the population that own guns.....than among the population that don't own guns.  So if that is the case, it would appear that the bleating of the NRA about how you need guns to keep you safe from crime, is nonsense......but it's nonsense that's been bought by the public.



Of course there is a higher gun death rate for gun owners.  If there is a gun in the house and there is a domestic dispute.. someone, if they are so inclined will pick up the gun and shoot someone in a rage, and more than likely, that person would die.. as opposed to being stabbed with a knife or hit over the head with a frying pan.    AND it goes without saying that the rate of accidental gun homicides is higher in homes with guns.. Also, people would be more inclined to commit suicide with a gun if it was available.   Yes.. more gun owners die from guns than non-gun owners..  It does make sense when you think about it.


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## BobF (Oct 27, 2015)

Debby, I just tried to start it and it did come up with a map and instructions to click on a city and then options showed.    I backed out as right now I  have other interests to work with.    Some stuff you posted is just pure  nonsense.   We have city with some of the most strict gun laws and they are also one of our biggest sources for gun shooting and killings.   Mostly criminal.   Dumb comments like this from some who claim to be experts is why I say we stick with the more boring government data sets.    Most anyone with the ability twist data can make them say what they want to hear.

Big problem for you and a number of other folks is not recognizing our government type and the crossing the border to raise nonsense is not well liked.

Our government type is Republic, not just a Democracy as many folks countries are.   A Republic and a Democracy have some fine differences.

A Republic has the power over the government in the hands of the people and a Democracy actually has the government having power over the people.   Both have voting power for the people, but there it seems to end.

Crossing borders is not a good thing to do if complaining.   It just stirs up a lot of resentment to the folks that don't respect our country and its laws.  

After finishing some other items I may come back and look into some of the comments in the link you posted.    I hope your government does maintain as you like it and for now our government is maintaining as the *majority* wants it.


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## Butterfly (Oct 27, 2015)

oldman said:


> 16 pages of comments and no real solutions. The only real answer is to disarm America and if or when that would come about, I will be making reservations to be out of the country. After all, even attempting to scale down to who can and who cannot own guns is a risk that I would not want to take as a politician. Going forward, we may be able to do something by limiting who can and who cannot own a weapon, but everyone else will have to be Grandfathered under the old rules, unless we want to go through another Civil War.
> 
> As for me and my guns, I would not want to give them up, but certainly would to comply, if that would be the law. However, I would still rather see us that have guns now be Grandfathered and those coming under any new laws be made to comply. I said this before, maybe in another thread, that I am aware of some people that I know that owns multitudes of guns. One fellow in particular owns 92 rifles and handguns. He says he is a collector, but only maybe 4 or 5 have any actual value as being a collectible gun. We have numerous gun raffles year round here to take a chance on winning new guns. This has been going on for decades. Some guys just keep on winning and stockpiling weapons. I do believe that some rationing of ammo is still in effect, is it not?



I would not comply, if that meant surrendering my weapons.  If someone could PROVE to me that the bad guys no longer had weapons, I might consider it -- but until then, no.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 27, 2015)

[video]http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/powerful-anti-gun-ad-panics-gun-rights-groups-416162371569[/video]


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 27, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I would not comply, if that meant surrendering my weapons.  If someone could PROVE to me that the bad guys no longer had weapons, I might consider it -- but until then, no.



That would never happen, the criminals and gangs will always have their weapons no matter how hard they try to crack down on the responsible American gun owners...so I wouldn't comply either.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2015)

BobF said:


> Debby, I just tried to start it and it did come up with a map and instructions to click on a city and then options showed.    I backed out as right now I  have other interests to work with.    Some stuff you posted is just pure  nonsense.   We have city with some of the most strict gun laws and they are also one of our biggest sources for gun shooting and killings.   Mostly criminal.   Dumb comments like this from some who claim to be experts is why I say we stick with the more boring government data sets.    Most anyone with the ability twist data can make them say what they want to hear.
> 
> Big problem for you and a number of other folks is not recognizing our government type and the crossing the border to raise nonsense is not well liked.
> 
> ...




The information in my post was not my own.  It was pulled together by people who've researched and come to those conclusions as well as the criminologist out of the US who talked about the empirical evidence.  So if you don't want to accept it, well that's your right, but your 'opinion' isn't really in the same league is it?  And note Bob, I said the documentary producer didn't say all states are to blame for guns pouring across the states and into Canada, she mentioned that there are 'ten'.  So certainly most of the US is functioning pretty well but there are ten states that are not.

Your problem really is that you don't like to have 'your' failures pointed out Bob.  Fair enough because nobody likes to be criticized but it's only by acknowledging failure and learning from it that you can improve the situation.  And I'm sorry if it botherss you that I'm criticizing but you're right next door and your criminal element is affecting my country's safety by bringing in illegal guns.  Besides, I've indicated numerous times that I recognize that Canada isn't above criticism and especially in the last ten years, we've lots to make up for.  And I promise to accept said critique in the same spirit that it's given.

I haven't got a big problem with people who want to own guns and go target shooting, etc.  But there are ten states in your country apparently who have dreadful laws and regulations and those laws need to be tightened up and regulated so that it's harder for the criminal element to get hold of weapons to sell and harder even more, for people with all sorts of mental problems from resorting to guns to solve the issues that bug them in their lives.  See, you can't even accuse me of wanting to 'take all your guns away'!

So let's see some of your boring old government data that says weak laws and poor regulatory processes are not letting those ten states (I'm going to have to watch this documentary I think so that I can name the names) enable violent gun crime in the rest of your country and mine.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2015)

I found a Youtube link to the news program that I watched about the documentary.  Maybe this one will work better:  






and here is the portion of that same show where Mr. Paiken talked to the criminologist out of the Indiana University, who talked about the empirical studies that show that gun owners are more likely to die from violent crime than non gun owners.


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## BobF (Oct 27, 2015)

Debby said:


> The information in my post was not my own.  It was pulled together by people who've researched and come to those conclusions as well as the criminologist out of the US who talked about the empirical evidence.  So if you don't want to accept it, well that's your right, but your 'opinion' isn't really in the same league is it?  And note Bob, I said the documentary producer didn't say all states are to blame for guns pouring across the states and into Canada, she mentioned that there are 'ten'.  So certainly most of the US is functioning pretty well but there are ten states that are not.
> 
> Your problem really is that you don't like to have 'your' failures pointed out Bob.  Fair enough because nobody likes to be criticized but it's only by acknowledging failure and learning from it that you can improve the situation.  And I'm sorry if it botherss you that I'm criticizing but you're right next door and your criminal element is affecting my country's safety by bringing in illegal guns.  Besides, I've indicated numerous times that I recognize that Canada isn't above criticism and especially in the last ten years, we've lots to make up for.  And I promise to accept said critique in the same spirit that it's given.
> 
> ...



I am saying that those other people can adapt their data to fit their dreams.    I prefer our government data for it more comprehensive accuracy from one report to another.    Ten states.    Unnamed so I can not challenge that.    Not in the government data either so check off equals zero.   One of our most crime fill cities is also one of our tougher laws cities too.   So tight laws and improved safety just do not go hand in hand.   Look to Chicago for their laws and stats.    So I am not defending from failures but from some radical ones that insist they are right about the US gun data but it does not fit with the government data.   Too bad for them.

The data I like, government run, says the USA rate of incidents has been going down for some years now.   Not a failure.

I don't care how Canada handles its gun situation one way or the other.   I do care how the US handle our gun situation and to me they are doing quite well if the score keeps going down for the rate of incidents.   There are some conflicting laws that need corrected.    One being medical records are locked so no checks on sanity, mental health, drugs being used, and such never reached the gun controlling area for new owners or previous registered users that my have changed.   Personal privacy does need to be protected, but that one seems to be one that needs exception when registering for gun ownership.


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## BobF (Oct 27, 2015)

Also, I just checked those two links you posted and neither one will work.   I get voices but no video.   That is what is happening all the time now.   Those video links would work but  now they don't.   Not sure if it is a Win 10 problem or just that type of link.   Your original link still works, sort of.    I guess it is some sort of guessing game as it asks for me to pick a subject and click on a city, or some such thing.   May try that tomorrow.

I have been reading about things but this Win 10 is sure confusing to me.    Once I wrote code but as it got more developed I had to leave it to others.   But in the Win 10 information stuff, lower left corner of the screen, I can't even walk my way along and understand what is happening.   I don't know which product I should challenge or which area to select for help or support.   

Windows has pretty much taken control of the market and I think they are soon going to want to ask for rent for using their products.    How else will they get income to pay for all the employees and their needs.   We all got, or will get, a free copy of Win 10 and they will soon need real income to stay in existence.   I am thinking of going back to Linux products or maybe to one of the other PC products.    I sure don't like Windows any more.


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