# Male and Female



## Gaer (Nov 9, 2020)

I always thought the sexes were male and female.  Now the school systems are teaching there are six sexes, not two.  Can anyone clarify this?  Who thought this up?  Why was this inagurated in the school system?  Why are the schools perpetuating this bombast?
Forgive my ignorance in this matter but, what's going on?


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## Ferocious (Nov 9, 2020)

*Hmmm........I've spent my entire life trying to figure out one sex, females, so, by my 480th birthday, I may have some sort of answer for you, Gaer. 
Have we been invaded by, Martians, or Venusians I wonder, it could be so, seeing as how I blink sometimes. *


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## Rosemarie (Nov 9, 2020)

There are two genders...male and female. A persons ****** preference does not always fit their gender, but it doesn't alter it.
That is how I see it. 
Children must be very confused by all this obsession with sex...what are the long term effects of all this going to be?


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## Wren (Nov 9, 2020)

Don’t get me started Gaer, in my opinion life is hard enough for kids without confusing them even more,  God help them all.......


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## Lewkat (Nov 9, 2020)

What the teachers are teaching is false.  Even with surgical changes, there, in reality, are two genders only.  You are male or female.  Don't believe me?  I'll invite anyone into a delivery room and prove it to you.


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## Aunt Marg (Nov 9, 2020)

Gaer said:


> I always thought the sexes were male and female.  Now the school systems are teaching there are six sexes, not two.  Can anyone clarify this?  Who thought this up?  Why was this inagurated in the school system?  Why are the schools perpetuating this bombast?
> Forgive my ignorance in this matter but, what's going on?


This is the first I have heard of such, but the ridiculousness that plagues modern day society today, more often than not, leaves me lost for words, and this is no exception.


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## Pappy (Nov 9, 2020)

A lot less sex, and a lot more history of our country. And spelling, and math, and literature. We didn’t, and don’t  need this type of teaching in our schools. Let these kids be kids and learn the things they will need in their future lives.


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## Liberty (Nov 9, 2020)

DUH?  What gives here...where did the other 4 come from?  Not Adam and Eve for sure...lol.


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## Fyrefox (Nov 9, 2020)

My own personal belief is that there are indeed two genders, but that their rendition and expression may be more distributed and shaded along a continuum scale than rendered starkly in a black-and-white polar extreme.  For this, we may be grateful as we only need so many caveman brutes and frail-and-fainting females...


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## MarciKS (Nov 9, 2020)

The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans

*The Six Most Common Karyotypes*


X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s )
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter)
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births
When you consider that there are 7,000,000,000 alive on the planet, there are almost assuredly tens of millions of people who are not male or female.   Many times, these people are unaware of their true sex.  It’s interesting to note that everyone assumes that they, personally, are XY or XX.  One study in Great Britain showed that 97 out of 100 people who were XYY had no idea.  They thought they were a traditional male and had few signs otherwise.


_I think what they're doing is trying to tell the kids if they have a man's body but feel like a woman that they are a different sex. Based on these karyotypes. I really don't think these kids need to know that crap. I think this is what's leading to all these people getting sex changes. If God had intended Bruce Jenner to be a woman I would think he would've made him into one in the beginning._


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## Packerjohn (Nov 9, 2020)

This is silly & rather stupid.  I, for one, am sick & tired of these nilly willy politically correct people.  Remember who is spreading this Corvid-19.  It's the young people.  The young people that have gone to a school system where everyone is passed regardless of how little they learn.  The education system has become a feel good place for all the kids.  When these kids grew up, they only understand the concept of "me, me, me".  So they do not listen to medical advice nor do they care that older people might become infected.  Why should they?  They only care for themselves.  So if you shut the bars, there are still house parties & they just love to give the "High Five" and spread the virus around.  Watch any TV show these days & you nothing but "High Fives" going around with the younger generation.  The education system has failed to bring good citizens into this country.  All voluntary organizations are desperate for new members & they are not getting them.  Sorry, but you reap what you sow!


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## Aunt Marg (Nov 9, 2020)

Packerjohn said:


> This is silly & rather stupid.  *I, for one, am sick & tired of these nilly willy politically correct people*.  Remember who is spreading this Corvid-19.  It's the young people.  The young people that have gone to a school system where everyone is passed regardless of how little they learn.  The education system has become a feel good place for all the kids.  When these kids grew up, they only understand the concept of "me, me, me".  So they do not listen to medical advice nor do they care that older people might become infected.  Why should they?  They only care for themselves.  So if you shut the bars, there are still house parties & they just love to give the "High Five" and spread the virus around.  Watch any TV show these days & you nothing but "High Fives" going around with the younger generation.  The education system has failed to bring good citizens into this country.  All voluntary organizations are desperate for new members & they are not getting them.  Sorry, but you reap what you sow!


My sentiment to a T!


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## Geezerette (Nov 9, 2020)

I’m not going to jump on the bandwagon until I hear exactly which schools, where and for how long. I think there have always been people who feel “different” and try to handle it the best they can. I don’t think that today’s youth are any more self centered and abhorrent than any other generations. 
I do feel that education systems overall have gone down hill by cutting back on studies like history, literature, language and civics and over emphasis on athletics.


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## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

www.teentalk.ca/learn-about/gender-identity/


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Gaer said:


> I always thought the sexes were male and female.  Now the school systems are teaching there are six sexes, not two.  Can anyone clarify this?  Who thought this up?  Why was this inagurated in the school system?  Why are the schools perpetuating this bombast?
> Forgive my ignorance in this matter but, what's going on?



Do you have any examples of what is being taught or links to information about what is being taught?  It would be nice to know what we're commenting on.

It would also be nice to know at what level this is being taught.  My reaction would be different if this was being taught in a high school AP Biology class as opposed to anything below 8th grade.

The bottom line however is that there is more than male and female.  There are lots of great articles and book chapters explaining why our concept of there being just two sexes or genders is incorrect.  If you really want to learn more about why this is the case there are lots of resources to do so.  I've read a number of them myself, but it didn't really strike me as anything particularly extraordinary so I didn't really commit any of the details to memory.


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## Gaer (Nov 9, 2020)

Thank you  Marciks, and Fast Trax for explaining that.  
I agree with Pappy on this!
I think all this ( I'm trying to think of a nice word for crap) is a desire deviation for what is considered normal on the Earth. 
Yes, I'm probably considered  old fashioned for still believing there are only two ****** genders. 
I think this might even be dangerous for impressionable children to experiment with crossdressing, transgender identities.  
Like Pappy says, teach the children more history of our nation, spelling, math, literature; knowledge to lift and enhance their quality of thought and reach their full potential.  This, IMO, does the opposite!
And, like Packer John said, "This is silly and rather stupid." 
Thank you all for answering my question, but now I'm even more strongly against it.  I think it perpetuates deviant behavior.


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## Knight (Nov 9, 2020)

I wonder what's next. Science tracking down the different X's & Y's to use some kind of algebraic formula so they can make designer  humans.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

Unfortunately, welcome to the New Age! I don't like it either, but we sure can't change it. 

Actually, this thread is why we like to, when we can, stick around farm/ranch people. Don't have to think about "what sex is that person?" at a livestock auction!


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## StarSong (Nov 9, 2020)

Gaer said:


> But now I'm even more strongly against it. I think it perpetuates deviant behavior.


What deviant behavior do you think it might perpetuate?


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## Don M. (Nov 9, 2020)

I'm probably too "old fashioned" to understand all the bi-******, trans-gender, etc., stuff.  To me, there are 2 sexes, and anything else is a sign of some form of mental illness.


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## Rosemarie (Nov 9, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Unfortunately, welcome to the New Age! I don't like it either, but we sure can't change it.
> 
> Actually, this thread is why we like to, when we can, stick around farm/ranch people. Don't have to think about "what sex is that person?" at a livestock auction!


There's no mystery about it. We only have to look at a person to see which gender they are. There are many other differences between males and females besides the genitals. This is why a person can live as the opposite sex, but they can't change from one to the other.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

My perspective is this. All too often over the years, I have comforted grieving families who lost a loved one to gender dysphoria or other anguishing states of being because societal norms made

few allowances for ****** differences outside very narrow parameters. Some died by their own hand, others were murdered. People are who they are, all deserve respect whether or not you agree with their perspective on their ****** identity. I have known four trans persons who have been murdered, their killers remain at large. Either all of us matter, or none of us do. As for promoting deviancy, in many places there are still laws on the books which prohibit oral and anal  sex even among partners.


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

For those who wish to educate themselves more about this topic here are a couple of articles.

This one is intended to be useful for teens.
https://teentalk.ca/learn-about/gender-identity/

Here's one from Scientific American titled Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/


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## Liberty (Nov 9, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Thank you  Marciks, and Fast Trax for explaining that.
> I agree with Pappy on this!
> I think all this ( I'm trying to think of a nice word for crap) is a desire deviation for what is considered normal on the Earth.
> Yes, I'm probably considered  old fashioned for still believing there are only two ****** genders.
> ...


Confusion on a lower level...lol.  Kids sure don't need that today- hey, they've got "social" media!


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Don M. said:


> I'm probably too "old fashioned" to understand all the bi-******, trans-gender, etc., stuff.  To me, there are 2 sexes, and anything else is a sign of some form of mental illness.


Within my mother’s lifetime, women who regularly experienced orgasms, even in a marital context,  were often considered to be nymphomaniacs, a form of mental illness.


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## Jules (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> People are who they are, all deserve respect whether or not you agree with their perspective on their ****** identity.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

Another thing about this thread, it can separate the "open minded" folks, that really don't care and those that are only partially-to-not at all "open minded" and really dislike it. 

Wife and I have a major tendency to be "not" open minded. To much weird stuff goes on today.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Thank you  Marciks, and Fast Trax for explaining that.
> I agree with Pappy on this!
> I think all this ( I'm trying to think of a nice word for crap) is a desire deviation for what is considered normal on the Earth.
> Yes, I'm probably considered  old fashioned for still believing there are only two ****** genders.
> ...


There is nothing silly or stupid about twelve year old children committing suicide because they are forced to be something they firmly believe they are not.  This is the brutal reality behind a refusal to deal with the situation in a kind and loving manner.  I pray that their better angels teach those in authority a better way, I have been to far too many funerals over the years. Fortunately, Canada now makes accommodations for such differences.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

Jules said:


>



Most definitely "open minded".


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## Autumn (Nov 9, 2020)

This is a quote from the program that will be taught - "However, gender isn't about someone's anatomy, it is about who they know them self to be. "

The genders being taught are as follows -

Male: born with male parts, thinks they are male
Female: born with female parts, thinks they are female
Transgender: Those who cross over or challenge common gender roles but don't necessarily get surgery.
Transsexual: Typically identifies as the opposite gender, and usually gets surgery to realign their outward gender with what they believe they are.
Two-spirited: Native American catch-all term for those who don't fulfill typical gender roles
Intersex: Someone who is of ambigous gender. Medically, this involves mixing of male and female genetalia as well as chromosomal combinations beyond simple XY or XX.


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Another thing about this thread, it can separate the "open minded" folks, that really don't care and those that are only partially-to-not at all "open minded" and really dislike it.
> 
> Wife and I have a major tendency to be "not" open minded. To much weird stuff goes on today.



I think of it more as being informed and uninformed.  If you are informed and disagree that's one thing but if you disagree without being informed you have formed your opinion in ignorance as opposed to with knowledge.


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Autumn said:


> This is a quote from the program that will be taught - "However, gender isn't about someone's anatomy, it is about who they know them self to be. "



Do you know at what age this will be taught?


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I think of it more as being informed and uninformed.  If you are informed and disagree that's one thing but if you disagree without being informed you have formed your opinion in ignorance as opposed to with knowledge.



Well, there must be a whole lot of what you call "ignorant" folks out there! Like us, they don't care about "being informed", they just don't like it!


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## fmdog44 (Nov 9, 2020)

I think it might be sick sex taught in our schools now not six sex.


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## DaveA (Nov 9, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, there must be a whole lot of what you call "ignorant" folks out there! Like us, they don't care about "being informed", they just don't like it!





ClassicRockr said:


> Unfortunately, welcome to the New Age! I don't like it either, but we sure can't change it.
> 
> Actually, this thread is why we like to, when we can, stick around farm/ranch people. Don't have to think about "what sex is that person?" at a livestock auction!



Just so you don't go off the deep end and  find yourself  "behind the barn" at the wrong rodeo.   

*International Gay Rodeo Association - Wikipedia*


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> I think it might be sick sex taught in our schools now not six sex.


Somehow, I suspect we have very different opinions on what constitutes healthy sex.


DaveA said:


> Just to help you out so you don't end up "behind the barn" at the wrong rodeo.
> 
> *International Gay Rodeo Association - Wikipedia*


Oh my, Dave, that is awesome!


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## Pinky (Nov 9, 2020)

People are people, no matter what gender. I've lost gay friends to suicide - gentle, lovely people who had every right to live and love as openly as I do. 

It saddens me that there is still so much homophobia in the world.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Pinky said:


> People are people, no matter what gender. I've lost gay friends to suicide - gentle, lovely people who had every right to live and love as openly as I do.
> 
> It saddens me that there is still so much homophobia in the world.


Oh, Pinky  I am so sorry.


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## Jules (Nov 9, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Most definitely "open minded".



Thank you.


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, there must be a whole lot of what you call "ignorant" folks out there! Like us, they don't care about "being informed", they just don't like it!



I'm definitely ignorant in many areas myself and see it as a condition that can be corrected rather than a value judgement.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> What the teachers are teaching is false.  Even with surgical changes, there, in reality, are two genders only.  You are male or female.  Don't believe me?  I'll invite anyone into a delivery room and prove it to you.


Medically speaking a baby can be born with both genitalia.  I suppose, medically speaking, there are 3 genders, although the third is rare.  It used to be that parents were encouraged to raise the child as a girl and the excess parts were surgically removed.  I think now, it’s better to wait, and see which way the child is orientated.


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## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Medically speaking a baby can be born with both genitalia.  I suppose, medically speaking, there are 3 genders, although the third is rare.  It used to be that parents were encouraged to raise the child as a girl and the excess parts were surgically removed.  I think now, it’s better to wait, and see which way the child is orientated.



Another thing that can happen is that the child can be born with genitalia that does not match it's genetic gender.  There's more about this in the Scientific American article I posted.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

I am completely open minded, as are my children.  It is not about who you love, it’s about the fact that you are loved.

My whole life my mother blamed me for being kidnapped and raped, “I must have flirted with the man”.  I was 7.  I did not know what the word flirt meant.  In the not so old days, women, who were raped, were blamed, in court, because their clothing enticed a man to commit the act.  Men who were raped never came forward.(A lot still don’t.)

A closed judgmental mind, IMO, allows horrific crimes to be committed, often in the name of God. Yet, we can not read God‘s mind and the Bible says, in many ways, in many places JUDGE NOT LESS YOU BE JUDGED.

Children need to be taught the differences in ****** orientation so they can avoid a closed mind; and understand that when they see two people kissing it’s because they love each other.  Gender has nothing to do with love.  IMO.


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## Lewkat (Nov 9, 2020)

Yes, when this happens, and it is so rare as to be almost non existent, the gonads are what determine the gender of the baby.  If there are ovaries it is a female, if there are testes, it is a male.  Androgynous types usually have an impaired chromosome so that one can look like either gender on the surface.  Princess Stephanie of Monaco is an example.


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## StarSong (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I am completely open minded, as are my children.  It is not about who you love, it’s about the fact that you are loved.
> 
> My whole life my mother blamed me for being kidnapped and raped, “I must have flirted with the man”.  I was 7.  I did not know what the word flirt meant.  In the not so old days, women, who were raped, were blamed, in court, because their clothing enticed a man to commit the act.  Men who were raped never came forward.(A lot still don’t.)
> 
> ...


As I read your post I felt a range or emotions from agreement to outrage to sadness, to agreement, to love. 

Your closing sentence says it all, "Gender has nothing to do with love."


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## Lewkat (Nov 9, 2020)

I don't think this thread was referring to one's preference as to whom they are in love with.  This isn't about gays, it is about the number of genders people supposedly want to define themselves as.  Fine, but, don't teach kids that there are several genders.  Not a fact at all.  1 per individual, male or female.  Genetics occasionally has to determine which is which, but again there are only 2 kinds.


Aneeda72 said:


> I am completely open minded, as are my children.  It is not about who you love, it’s about the fact that you are loved.
> 
> My whole life my mother blamed me for being kidnapped and raped, “I must have flirted with the man”.  I was 7.  I did not know what the word flirt meant.  In the not so old days, women, who were raped, were blamed, in court, because their clothing enticed a man to commit the act.  Men who were raped never came forward.(A lot still don’t.)
> 
> ...


That is horrible, Aneeda.  Good lord, you were only 7, how in heaven's name could your mother come to such a conclusion.  Mine would have castrated the S.O.B. and then called the cops.  So very sorry this happened to you.  What a trauma.


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## Lewkat (Nov 9, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans
> 
> *The Six Most Common Karyotypes*
> 
> ...


Again, if one is born with testes, it is a male and if ovaries, it is female.  To assign different genders is wrong.  Chromosomes are flawed and one appear androgynous.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I don't think this thread was referring to one's preference as to whom they are in love with.  This isn't about gays, it is about the number of genders people supposedly want to define themselves as.  Fine, but, don't teach kids that there are several genders.  Not a fact at all.  1 per individual, male or female.  Genetics occasionally has to determine which is which, but again there are only 2 kinds.
> 
> That is horrible, Aneeda.  Good lord, you were only 7, how in heaven's name could your mother come to such a conclusion.  Mine would have castrated the S.O.B. and then called the cops.  So very sorry this happened to you.  What a trauma.


Thanks.  Even though my mother noticed I was gone, she never looked for me.  When I didn’t appear for dinner, my dad was beyond angry thinking I was out playing.  He found me locked in a rabbit skinning shed owned by the local handman.  Police were not called.  I was not taken to the doctor.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 9, 2020)

To be honest, I don't understand much about the variations of the sex chromosome. I doubt many people do. But that is science. Some think all you have to do is look between the legs to determine what gender a person is. It's not that simple. What do you do when you look  and there's both. So what is it, male or female?  Everybody says they know. It is a complicated process involving genes and hormones.  And there aren't always easy answers. As far as karyotypes , if anybody can see them in a microscope, it doesn't matter if we never heard about them, in school, 40 years ago; they exist. Teaching the science of  chromosome research in school is where its supposed to be taught. Plus, some of the terms are confusing- gender vs sex. We have a lot of bugaboos about sex, and gender, And I would have to say that most of my generation are not well informed about ****** matters. My 11 year old classmate seemed to know all the facts.


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## Autumn (Nov 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Do you know at what age this will be taught?


In Ontario, it was originally slated for 6th grade, but then raised to 8th grade.


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## Autumn (Nov 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I think of it more as being informed and uninformed.  If you are informed and disagree that's one thing but if you disagree without being informed you have formed your opinion in ignorance as opposed to with knowledge.


Thank you, this is a very thoughtful and wise reply.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I am completely open minded, as are my children.  It is not about who you love, it’s about the fact that you are loved.
> 
> My whole life my mother blamed me for being kidnapped and raped, “I must have flirted with the man”.  I was 7.  I did not know what the word flirt meant.  In the not so old days, women, who were raped, were blamed, in court, because their clothing enticed a man to commit the act.  Men who were raped never came forward.(A lot still don’t.)
> 
> ...


Oh, my dear, I weep for the child you were, such horror, then to be met with further abuse from those who should have reacted with love and nurtured your spirit, ensured that man was charged.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Thanks.  Even though my mother noticed I was gone, she never looked for me.  When I didn’t appear for dinner, my dad was beyond angry thinking I was out playing.  He found me locked in a rabbit skinning shed owned by the local handman.  Police were not called.  I was not taken to the doctor.


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## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


>


Sending you all my love.


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## 911 (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> There is nothing silly or stupid about twelve year old children committing suicide because they are forced to be something they firmly believe they are not.  This is the brutal reality behind a refusal to deal with the situation in a kind and loving manner.  I pray that their better angels teach those in authority a better way, I have been to far too many funerals over the years. Fortunately, Canada now makes accommodations for such differences.


I strongly disagree, but I do not want to start a 12 page thread. 

What you can do is to answer the following question for me: *"How did we get to where we are?"* 

Here is my point using analogies: If a 12 y/o commits a murder, he will generally serve time in a youth development home and then be released back into society. There are cases where a 10-12 y/o will get prison time, but those are the exceptions. The usually defense for these kids that murder is that the brain is not fully developed and they don't understand about the consequences and yadda, yadda, yadda. 

Today we are saying: "Well, if my 12 y/o son thinks he is a girl, then so-be-it, I will do what I can to make that happen." My question is, "How does he know he wants to be a girl?" His brain isn't fully developed and maybe when he turns 20, he will think, "Boy, did I ever screw up."


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

DaveA said:


> Just so you don't go off the deep end and  find yourself  "behind the barn" at the wrong rodeo.
> 
> *International Gay Rodeo Association - Wikipedia*



I know about this association and many regular rodeo contestants and fans think it's absolutely stupid. But, that is our opinion.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

911 said:


> I strongly disagree, but I do not want to start a 12 page thread.
> 
> What you can do is to answer the following question for me: *"How did we get to where we are?"*
> 
> ...


Well, if she/he turns 20 and decides he/she screwed up then he/she can switch and date the opposite sex.  A 12 year old is not getting a sex change operation.  Both my granddaughters dated girls in high school.  Both swore they were lesbians.  Ok, fine, we don’t care.  Both went to the prom with girls as dates.  One wore a tux. 

Fast forward, and by 19 one is living with a guy and has a baby.  The other is living with a guy.  What you think you are at 12 is not written in stone.  What you think are at 74 is not written in stone.  Only the Ten Commandments were written in stone and we lost the dang stone.  Humans are stupid people.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, if she/he turns 20 and decides he/she screwed up then he/she can switch and date the opposite sex.  A 12 year old is not getting a sex change operation.  Both my granddaughters dated girls in high school.  Both swore they were lesbians.  Ok, fine, we don’t care.  Both went to the prom with girls as dates.  One wore a tux.
> 
> Fast forward, and by 19 one is living with a guy and has a baby.  The other is living with a guy.  What you think you are at 12 is not written in stone.  What you think are at 74 is not written in stone.  Only the Ten Commandments were written in stone and we lost the dang stone.  Humans are stupid people.



How very true in many respects (in red above).


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## 911 (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, if she/he turns 20 and decides he/she screwed up then he/she can switch and date the opposite sex.  A 12 year old is not getting a sex change operation.  Both my granddaughters dated girls in high school.  Both swore they were lesbians.  Ok, fine, we don’t care.  Both went to the prom with girls as dates.  One wore a tux.
> 
> Fast forward, and by 19 one is living with a guy and has a baby.  The other is living with a guy.  What you think you are at 12 is not written in stone.  What you think are at 74 is not written in stone.  Only the Ten Commandments were written in stone and we lost the dang stone.  Humans are stupid people.


But, my point is that I have read that 12 y/o are having sex changes. I don't believe it was in this country, although I do know that the process can start when the child is 12 y/o. I think they use something called a puberty blocker, whatever that is.

I could tell you a story of what I walked into one early morning during my patrol, but it would make you gag.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

A lot of folks aren't bothered by this, while there are lots of folks that are. Have to "try" and respect both sides.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 9, 2020)

911 said:


> But, my point is that I have read that 12 y/o are having sex changes. I don't believe it was in this country, although I do know that the process can start when the child is 12 y/o. I think they use something called a puberty blocker, whatever that is.
> 
> I could tell you a story of what I walked into one early morning during my patrol, but it would make you gag.



I totally understand. Remember, I use to work alongside law enforcement in both Los Angeles and Orange County California as an EMT. What a person can see when doing that job!


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 9, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans
> 
> *The Six Most Common Karyotypes*
> 
> ...



I can add another variation - XXX - one of my grand daughters has this chromosome combination. Clearly she is female but she also has a range of characteristics caused by this accident of conception. 

As a former science teacher I would explain to my class that some babies are born with indeterminant gender due to poorly developed genitalia or are hermaphrodites. In the past the doctors would choose a gender and perform surgery to remove what they considered the easiest to deal with. The child would then be raised as the assigned gender even if psychologically they identified with the opposite sex.

I think it reasonable to teach that gender is not a binary proposition and to encourage acceptance of intersex children.


----------



## Lakeland living (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, if she/he turns 20 and decides he/she screwed up then he/she can switch and date the opposite sex.  A 12 year old is not getting a sex change operation.  Both my granddaughters dated girls in high school.  Both swore they were lesbians.  Ok, fine, we don’t care.  Both went to the prom with girls as dates.  One wore a tux.
> 
> Fast forward, and by 19 one is living with a guy and has a baby.  The other is living with a guy.  What you think you are at 12 is not written in stone.  What you think are at 74 is not written in stone.  Only the Ten Commandments were written in stone and we lost the dang stone.  Humans are stupid people.


I agree there some incredibly stupid people out there. Picking dining instead of health, either yourself or  someone else close to you??


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

A lot of today’s children decide not to decide what ****** orientation they will have till later and explore all their options which is fine.  It is their life and they can choose their ****** orientation and change it as they wish.  It is a new world.  I certainly would not lose a child because I did not like their ****** orientation.  Really not my business.

I have said this before, parents have one main job, to love their children unconditionally.  Yet so many parents muck it up.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Oh, my dear, I weep for the child you were, such horror, then to be met with further abuse from those who should have reacted with love and nurtured your spirit, ensured that man was charged.


It was the early 1950’s.  If there was a rape, it was the females fault, no matter what the age, and the female was ruined from that moment on.  Rapes were hidden, the shame of it Caused many a death.  We forget what the 1950’s were like for woman.  They really were not the good old days.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> It was the early 1950’s.  If there was a rape, it was the females fault, no matter what the age, and the female was ruined from that moment on.  Rapes were hidden, the shame of it Caused many a death.  We forget what the 1950’s were like for woman.  They really were not the good old days.


No, they weren’t, unless you were very fortunate.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 9, 2020)

When we were young our parents were aghast at their children not remaining virgins before marrying, serial monogamy, living with someone without marrying, interracial relationships, and so much more that now seems commonplace. 

No matter how much that generation clutched their pearls, it was our world, our choice.

People in their teens and twenties view gender and sexuality as somewhat fluid. It's their world, their choice. I let go of my pearls a long time ago.


----------



## officerripley (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> No, they weren’t, unless you were very fortunate.


Or your skin was the "right" color and you p**d standing up.


----------



## Manatee (Nov 9, 2020)

It is called brainwashing.  It is a step toward authoritarianism.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Manatee said:


> It is called brainwashing.  It is a step toward authoritarianism.



Are you saying that teaching people the scientific findings about gender is a step towards authoritarianism or were you referring to something else in the thread?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Are you saying that teaching people the scientific findings about gender is a step towards authoritarianism or were you referring to something else in the thread?


Yeah, I did not understand either.


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 9, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Within my mother’s lifetime, women who regularly experienced orgasms, even in a marital context, were often considered to be nymphomaniacs


No wonder I was always exhausted in my late teens
All my dates were nymphomaniacs


----------



## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> No wonder I was always exhausted in my late teens
> All my dates were nymphomaniacs



Yes Yes Yes....................I could only wish!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 9, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> Yes Yes Yes


Yup.....that's nympho speak


----------



## Nathan (Nov 9, 2020)

Just for the record:  you can't "catch" gay....people are what they are.  Students should know about the differences in people, not kept in the dark to make assumptions based on hate and fear.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 9, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> I can add another variation - XXX - one of my grand daughters has this chromosome combination. Clearly she is female but she also has a range of characteristics caused by this accident of conception.
> 
> As a former science teacher I would explain to my class that some babies are born with indeterminant gender due to poorly developed genitalia or are hermaphrodites. In the past the doctors would choose a gender and perform surgery to remove what they considered the easiest to deal with. The child would then be raised as the assigned gender even if psychologically they identified with the opposite sex.
> 
> I think it reasonable to teach that gender is not a binary proposition and to encourage acceptance of intersex children.


no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something. if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars? 

just for the record, i'm not mad, please don't get all up in arms. this is just an opinion. i'm not out to offend anyone or make anyone mad.


----------



## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something.
> 
> 
> 
> **********************if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars?***************************


----------



## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

Now how did I screw that up?


----------



## Warrigal (Nov 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something. if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars?
> 
> just for the record, i'm not mad, please don't get all up in arms. this is just an opinion. i'm not out to offend anyone or make anyone mad.


No offence taken. I was teaching science to Year 10 classes (15 - 16 year olds) in the late 70s in an Australian Catholic High School. Reproduction was just one topic in the state curriculum and all lessons were factual and about the science. Cell division and genetics was also part of the syllabus. We did not enter into areas that were about social issues.


----------



## Chet (Nov 10, 2020)

When I was kid we had a woman across the street everyone referred to as Jim. We never thought about it and to everybody she was just Jim. She gravitated to Jim of her own choosing in a time when the public wasn't being bombarded with information and mis-information by the blathering media looking for "content". Today it's different. Young kids still in a stage of development think that how they pee doesn't determine who they are. So sorry for them. Like they need more pressure growing up.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something. if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars?
> 
> just for the record, i'm not mad, please don't get all up in arms. this is just an opinion. i'm not out to offend anyone or make anyone mad.


Imagine being a young girl and your mother, a total witch who never cared anything for you and beat you like a dog, never taught you girl biological.  Imagine such biology was taught in school but you needed your parents permission to attend which they did not give.  Imagine standing up one day, in class, soaked in blood.

Just for the record, just an opinion, all these issues need to be taught in school where most children feel safe enough to have the ability to understand what is being said to them.  What kind of behavior did you think I EXHIBITED when I thought I was bleeding to death?

I will tell you.  I ran and hid.  I was terrified and I ran and hid.  Then, when the bell rang to return to class, I left school, ran home, and hid in my closet.  The unknown can frighten children no matter what their age.  I am not mad, but most people have no ideal what a great many children go through.

Teaching children how the world around them works, teaching children what their at home normal should be, teaching children about where they can get fed, teaching children about hygiene, teaching children about where they are safe, teaching children how to care for themselves is far more important then teaching children some useless sport.  IMO.


----------



## Ronni (Nov 10, 2020)

I am good friends with two women who have children who were not comfortable with their female gender from a very early age. I knew these women well and listened to each of their stories with interest and compassion, because frankly I just can't imagine anything worse than not being able to identify with or relate to your biological gender.     What a wretched thing.

So much of our identity, for right or for wrong, is defined by our gender, and yes, far less in this current time than ever before, but still.  The stories these women told me were gut wrenching.  By age 3 in the one case and 5 in the other, each of these kids were spurning the traditional gender roles, and rebelling against wearing dresses, the color pink, playing with dolls, having long hair etc....some very obvious things that were expected of girls 30-40 years ago.  The Moms were sympathetic and flexible but the Dad in one case REFUSED to condone or allow ANY behavior, dress, play, that wasn't "appropriately" gender based.  The dad in the other was less dogmatic, but still disturbed by the preferred choices of his daughter.

Fast forward to these kids 20 years later.  Both were still adamantly opposed to behaving/dressing/acting in a way typical for being female.  Both were doing everything they could to appear male, even though they were biologically female.  The hardships both these kids endured from well meaning family members, school peers and officials, even strangers, was just so heartbreaking. 

Thankfully, in both cases, the kids were put into intensive therapy, and both were able to deal with the disconnect they were feeling with their bodies vs who they felt they were.  Ultimately both opted for gender reassignment therapy, which was a long process, not just because of the surgery, but even more so because of the evaluations, therapy, counseling, testing that they were subjected to before they were allowed to begin the transition.   Doctors don't treat gender reassignment surgery as just some kind of a "whee!!! OK then let's chop off this, and add that, and drug you up so you can grow a beard and develop muscles."   It's a grueling emotional process for the kid as they're tested and evaluated and dealing with all of the questions and examinations from professionals whose job it is to ensure that the person knows just what they're doing before the surgeons and doctors are allowed to take the next step, and all the while the "patient" just wants to finally feel comfortable in their own skin!

My friends kids are enjoying life now as males.  They look amazing!! They have girlfriends, and friends, good jobs, and are finally, in their mid-late 30's, beginning to live the life they feel they were meant to.   They are surrounded by people who have supported them, not judged them, been willing to see them as people first, not just a gender....and no, almost all of these folks are not themselves gender challenged, gay or otherwise involved in alternative life styles.  They, too, are just people, enjoying their friendships and living their lives without judgment or being judged.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

One thing for sure, until any of you, except 911 and myself (that I know of), have worked in either or both EMS and law enforcement, you, most likely, won't understand where either of us come from with this subject. 

But, then again, my wife has never worked in either and she totally understands how I feel about the subject.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

Chet said:


> When I was kid we had a woman across the street everyone referred to as Jim. We never thought about it and to everybody she was just Jim. She gravitated to Jim of her own choosing in a time when the public wasn't being bombarded with information and mis-information by the blathering media looking for "content". Today it's different. Young kids still in a stage of development think that how they pee doesn't determine who they are. So sorry for them. Like they need more pressure growing up.



I don't think today's kids or anyone else needs the suggestion that they may not be who God made them to be. We have a kid a work with Autism who is very easily influenced by surrounding environment and ideas. He sees something somewhere and because he thinks a particular man is cute...and he likes girls he's now convinced he's bi-******. If that crap wasn't being toted around in the media like mugs of coffee I doubt he'd have any issue there. 

It's this kind of mental influence isn't good for people. I'm not saying that gender or sex related issues don't exist. I just think that them flaunting it all over the media is giving people stupid ideas that don't know any better.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

911 said:


> I strongly disagree, but I do not want to start a 12 page thread.
> 
> What you can do is to answer the following question for me: *"How did we get to where we are?"*
> 
> ...


Exactly!


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Just for the record: you can't "catch" gay....people are what they are. Students should know about the differences in people, not kept in the dark to make assumptions based on hate and fear.


Heh, I'm pretty sure students today know all about most everything waaaaay before the classroom 

As for me, I didn't know all that much

Still don't

So, got to reading

Mostly about lesbianism, and how they think

I......I.....I think I'm a lesbian


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Just for the record:  you can't "catch" gay....people are what they are.  Students should know about the differences in people, not kept in the dark to make assumptions based on hate and fear.


You know it's interesting that you should say this. I'm certain I had some classmates that were gay but back then this stuff wasn't out there being pushed by the media and creating the hate that we see now. The media is responsible for a lot of what's wrong with society today as a whole I think. 

The reason I made that last remark about the media is because for years they wanted people with Tourette Syndrome to make people aware that it's out there. Ok so now that people are aware of it now everyone thinks they have it or we've become the butt of jokes. I frankly would rather have people unaware. Ignorance can truly be bliss at times.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

God I would love to stay and continue this discussion but I have to go to work. You all have a great day!!


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I don't think today's kids or anyone else needs the suggestion that they may not be who God made them to be. We have a kid a work with Autism who is very easily influenced by surrounding environment and ideas. He sees something somewhere and because he thinks a particular man is cute...and he likes girls he's now convinced he's bi-******. If that crap wasn't being toted around in the media like mugs of coffee I doubt he'd have any issue there.
> 
> It's this kind of mental influence isn't good for people. I'm not saying that gender or sex related issues don't exist. I just think that them flaunting it all over the media is giving people stupid ideas that don't know any better.


God, IMO, supplies our souls which drive us to be male or female, inside our minds.  Mother Nature, makes our bodies.  Mother Nature often mucks it up.  So, while God, supplies a male soul, nature can supply a female body.

Otherwise, due to the wide range of birth defects in newborn children, we would have to assume that God makes a lot of mistakes.  I prefer to assume Mother Nature is to blame.

Edited to add:  We become who we become though a wide variety of choices made through out our lives by us.  God gave us free choice.  God doesn’t make serial killers, God doesn’t make child abusers, the list is endless of the types of people God did/does not make.  We make ourselves while being influenced by others.  We must take personal responsibility for who we are.


----------



## Sunny (Nov 10, 2020)

I admittedly know practically nothing about this subject. I did find this, however, which I found fascinating.

https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I don't think today's kids or anyone else needs the suggestion that they may not be who God made them to be. We have a kid a work with Autism who is very easily influenced by surrounding environment and ideas. He sees something somewhere and because he thinks a particular man is cute...and he likes girls he's now convinced he's bi-******. If that crap wasn't being toted around in the media like mugs of coffee I doubt he'd have any issue there.
> 
> It's this kind of mental influence isn't good for people. I'm not saying that gender or sex related issues don't exist. I just think that them flaunting it all over the media is giving people stupid ideas that don't know any better.


Or he just might be bi-******.

A woman, with Down’s syndrome, was recently moved to my sons all male group home from the all female group home.  Why?  Because she identifies as male, not female.  The guys accept her as male.  She/he is happier.  I doubt the media influenced him/her.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Heh, I'm pretty sure students today know all about most everything waaaaay before the classroom
> 
> As for me, I didn't know all that much
> 
> ...


You would be surprised and shocked about how much children don’t know or are confused about. As to your being a lesbian, sorry you are not, but a cross dresser, hmm.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

Common sense and rational observation would indicate that some people are not comfortable with the gender they were born into or "assigned."

Obviously, those people should be treated with decency and respect, and should be welcomed into society.  

Common sense does not indicate that everyone is "gender fluid" and should be encouraged to experiment with gender identities.   That way lies madness.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

As my children were growing up and I got to know their friends and classmates, it was fairly easy from very early years (sometimes preschool) to realize some were gay.  They weren't influenced by the media - it was how they were wired.

To me, the classes we're discussing help validate the kids who feel "other" when it comes to their gender, and equally importantly, it teaches their classmates that these kids aren't freaks, nor do they have something wrong with them. When lights are shone on a subject the fear and ignorance disappear.

Of course, the primary reason parents don't want their children exposed to this information is that they're terrified their children will be inspired and "turned" gay or bi.

p.s.  I did know kids who committed suicide in HS.  Was it because they realized they were gay?  Perhaps.  They took their secrets with them to the grave so I'll never know.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something. if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars?
> 
> just for the record, i'm not mad, please don't get all up in arms. this is just an opinion. i'm not out to offend anyone or make anyone mad.



It's most likely that when you were in school homosexuality was still considered a form of mental illness.

We can't be sure that anyone who committed suicide before we had the vocabulary of gender awareness didn't commit suicide for those reasons but wasn't able to express them because they didn't know how to describe what they were experiencing.  It might be that they described themselves as being crazy because they didn't feel like they were supposed to feel.  Thus your "not in their right minds" might have been a term to describe non-conventional gender awareness.

I do agree that awareness might lead some people to try things they might not have chosen to try in an earlier time period.  However I don't see that as a bad thing.  If they are aware that they have some interest in something that isn't "normal" as long as it isn't harmful to themselves or others I think they should be able to investigate their interests.


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> You would be surprised and shocked about how much children don’t know or are confused about.


Well, I've been shocked at what they *DO* know
Talking 6-8 and 12 yr olds

But, yeah, the little ones....I imagine they could be very confused


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> As my children were growing up and I got to know their friends and classmates, it was fairly easy from very early years (sometimes preschool) to realize some were gay.  They weren't influenced by the media - it was how they were wired.
> 
> To me, the classes we're discussing help validate the kids who feel "other" when it comes to their gender, and equally importantly, it teaches their classmates that these kids aren't freaks, nor do they have something wrong with them. When lights are shone on a subject the fear and ignorance disappear.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree with you but there is a big difference between thinking you might be gay and thinking you might want to change genders, especially with the help of drugs and/or surgery.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

Big issues include:

Do biological boys-identifying-as-women get to play on young women's sports teams?  

Do biological boys-identifying-as-women get to shower with young women?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Big issues include:
> 
> Do biological boys-identifying-as-women get to play on young women's sports teams?
> 
> Do biological boys-identifying-as-women get to shower with young women?


I think showers are going by the way side in many schools, but a boy identified as a girl would shower separate if the school still had showers and the same for the other.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...horia/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

This is a great Mayo Clinic article about pubertal blockers, what they are, what they do and steps needed for them to be given to children.  I'm not sure if there are actual laws regarding their use but the article does say that the parents or other caretakers or guardians have to consent to the treatment.  Here are the requirements listed for a child to get the pubertal blockers:

To begin using pubertal blockers, a child must:

Show a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria
Have gender dysphoria that began or worsened at the start of puberty
Address any psychological, medical or social problems that could interfere with treatment
Provide informed consent


----------



## gennie (Nov 10, 2020)

Maybe one day scientists will be able to determine what is hard-wired at conception, what is determined by mother's actions during pregnancy and (for reincarnation believers) what is pre-determined or is a soul imprint.  

Until then, the best we can do is continue to learn and be open to fact-based progress in education.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Absolutely agree with you but there is a big difference between thinking you might be gay and thinking you might want to change genders, especially with the help of drugs and/or surgery.


I know someone who transgendered from female to male.  It wasn't an easy process; it included years of therapy and evaluation, hormone therapy with often unpleasant side-effects.  The docs are pretty good at weeding out the faint of heart and the dilettantes who are dabbling in the latest craze.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

gennie said:


> what is determined by mother's actions during pregnancy


What are you getting at here?  I'm mystified.


----------



## Sunny (Nov 10, 2020)

gennie said:


> Maybe one day scientists will be able to determine what is hard-wired at conception, what is determined by mother's actions during pregnancy and (for reincarnation believers) what is pre-determined or is a soul imprint.
> 
> Until then, the best we can do is continue to learn and be open to fact-based progress in education.



Gennie, no scientist I've ever heard of is concerned with" pre-determined reincarnation" or a "soul imprint."

Scientists may be able to determine what is hard-wired at conception, but I even doubt that. The whole subject is much too complicated for such simple answers.  And I also wonder, as StarSong does, what you are referring to by "mother's actions during pregnancy."

Please clarify.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

After two very short marriages to Army dudes, which one was annulled and the other ?, our great niece is now married to a lesbian. She met one guy before she went into the Army and the other, while in the Army. Not a single sign of "lesbian" thinking/actions before the Army. But, she did tell her mom, during last Leave from the Army, that she thought she was bi-******. So, apparently, sometime towards the end of her Army hitch, she was with a woman. They had a Facebook page, where our great niece's girlfriend, before marrying, called the great niece "Beautiful" all the time. So much that I "unfriended" them. Just didn't like seeing it. They were told to take down the Facebook page by my wife's sister, the niece's grandmother. 

The niece's grandmother, my wife's sister, is very "Christian" like, but knows she has to accept her or not have her in her life. As for us, we have talked to both great niece and her so-called "husband" on Zoom, but it was a "family" Zoom. Other than that, no communication at all. My wife's sister will tell us what the two are up to.

Our thinking, our great niece was manipulated into the lesbian thing by this other girl. Something happened!


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Our thinking, our great niece was manipulated into the lesbian thing by this other girl. Something happened!



You might consider reaching out to your niece and asking her about it.  She may have a different perspective because she lived through her experiences.

I have known several women who were successfully and seemingly happily married to men and had children but later in life realized they were lesbians or at least more attracted to women emotionally and/or physically.

It's possible that your niece is bi-****** and just more attracted to women either on the Kinsey scale or emotionally.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

I just bought a Subaru.  I'm attracted to women.  I like flannel shirts.  I may have to come to grips with the fact I'm a lesbian.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

BTW if anyone is curious to hear how some teens go through the awakening of their orientation I'd recommend reading High School by Tegan and Sara, the pop stars.  They wrote about early relationships and relationship issues in the book.  One of them dated a guy for a while before discovering or acknowledging her true orientation.

Besides being an interesting book about their high school years it also covers what


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> I just bought a Subaru.  I'm attracted to women.  I like flannel shirts.  I may have to come to grips with the fact I'm a lesbian.



No, you're just someone who likes to stereotype people or continue to promote stereotypes.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> What are you getting at here?  I'm mystified.


Just speaking for my self, I took that comment to mean drug usage etc.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> After two very short marriages to Army dudes, which one was annulled and the other ?, our great niece is now married to a lesbian. She met one guy before she went into the Army and the other, while in the Army. Not a single sign of "lesbian" thinking/actions before the Army. But, she did tell her mom, during last Leave from the Army, that she thought she was bi-******. So, apparently, sometime towards the end of her Army hitch, she was with a woman. They had a Facebook page, where our great niece's girlfriend, before marrying, called the great niece "Beautiful" all the time. So much that I "unfriended" them. Just didn't like seeing it. They were told to take down the Facebook page by my wife's sister, the niece's grandmother.
> 
> The niece's grandmother, my wife's sister, is very "Christian" like, but knows she has to accept her or not have her in her life. As for us, we have talked to both great niece and her so-called "husband" on Zoom, but it was a "family" Zoom. Other than that, no communication at all. My wife's sister will tell us what the two are up to.
> 
> Our thinking, our great niece was manipulated into the lesbian thing by this other girl. Something happened!


I agree, something happened.  Your great niece fell in love.  You should be happy for her.  IMO.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 said:


> BTW if anyone is curious to hear how some teens go through the awakening of their orientation I'd recommend reading High School by Tegan and Sara, the pop stars.  They wrote about early relationships and relationship issues in the book.  One of them dated a guy for a while before discovering or acknowledging her true orientation.
> 
> Besides being an interesting book about their high school years it also covers what


This is what happened with my two granddaughters, dated girls for 3 years, then realized they were heterosexual and like men.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 said:


> No, you're just someone who likes to stereotype people or continue to promote stereotypes.



Guess, just like us. So, does that mean "911" is doing that also. Remember, he is a retired law enforcement officer!


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 said:


> You might consider reaching out to your niece and asking her about it.  She may have a different perspective because she lived through her experiences.
> 
> I have known several women who were successfully and seemingly happily married to men and had children but later in life realized they were lesbians or at least more attracted to women emotionally and/or physically.
> 
> It's possible that your niece is bi-****** and just more attracted to women either on the Kinsey scale or emotionally.



Nope! Ever since I've tried talking to my wife's sister about how she acts, I'm completely done in the "reaching out" thing.........except for my wife, if needed. LOL


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I agree, something happened.  Your great niece fell in love.  You should be happy for her.  IMO.



Well, she fell in love with both of her previous husbands. So...........
Happy for her? Not us! We believe in what the Bible says about this.........man and woman "thing".


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, she fell in love with both of her previous husbands. So...........
> Happy for her? Not us! We believe in what the Bible says about this.........man and woman "thing".


What about the ”judge not lest you be judged“ thing?


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Guess, just like us. So, does that mean "911" is doing that also. Remember, he is a retired law enforcement officer!



My comment was about JimBob1952's attempt at humor.

I can't see anything that you or 911 have posted here that indicated you like to stereotype people or to promote stereotypes.  You have both indicated that you experienced things that have affected your views on this issue.  I wasn't questioning that.


----------



## gennie (Nov 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Gennie, no scientist I've ever heard of is concerned with" pre-determined reincarnation" or a "soul imprint."
> 
> Scientists may be able to determine what is hard-wired at conception, but I even doubt that. The whole subject is much too complicated for such simple answers.  And I also wonder, as StarSong does, what you are referring to by "mother's actions during pregnancy."
> 
> Please clarify.


Perhaps 'mother's actions' was poorly worded.  What I meant was all that happened during the pregnancy - her environment, what she ingested, what she inhaled, her mental state, her overall health, everything - the good, the bad and the seemingly inconsequential.

I carried my babies in the late 50s early 60s.  Very little was known at the time about how our actions affected our fetus.  The general consensus was that I did my thing and it did its.  As long as it was protected from injury and I stayed in good health, all was good.

We've since learned much about the interaction between mother and fetus but there is still a lot to learn.  Today's  average mother-to-be encounters far more man made substances just in everyday life.  Some good, some bad and some that no one either knows or care how their use might affect a fetus.

For instance: the casual use of plastics that leach a chemical called BPA into an ingested substance.  BPA is an artificial estrogen, an endocrine disrupter.  I'm certain there are studies about how it affects a fetus but no way to have an definitive answer based on fact. Who is to know how an estrogen overload might affect a fetus?


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 said:


> No, you're just someone who likes to stereotype people or continue to promote stereotypes.



Ouch.  Just a harmless joke.   I actually did just buy a Subaru and have received some good natured kidding about it.  I'll call those folks back and tell them not to traffic in stereotypes.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Ouch.  Just a harmless joke.   I actually did just buy a Subaru and have received some good natured kidding about it.  I'll call those folks back and tell them not to traffic in stereotypes.



I don't think that your joke was cruel but just a joke has been used to justify cruel comments for a long time.

If you're interested in learning about the power of stereotypes, here's an interesting article which was published in response to a piece published in Nature that some readers found objectionable.  The article contains the results of some studies of how female stereotypes in the field of math affect females even without them being directly brought up.  https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/the-joke-isnt-funny-its-harmful/

I try to avoid stereotyping people or promoting stereotypes, but I know I fail to do so some times.  So it's an easy trap to fall into since our society tends to promote stereotypes.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

I remember when Anne Heche broke up with Ellen Degeneris in 2000 and ended up marrying a man not long afterwards.  There was quite a media storm over whether she was straight or gay.  She responded by saying that she wasn't in love with a particular gender.  She had been in love with Ellen, who happened to be a woman, and now she was in love with her husband, who happened to be a man.


----------



## Sunny (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> I just bought a Subaru.  I'm attracted to women.  I like flannel shirts.  I may have to come to grips with the fact I'm a lesbian.


OMG, I drive a Subaru!  Does that mean....?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I remember when Anne Heche broke up with Ellen Degeneris in 2000 and ended up marrying a man not long afterwards.  There was quite a media storm over whether she was straight or gay.  She responded by saying that she wasn't in love with a particular gender.  She had been in love with Ellen, who happened to be a woman, and now she was in love with her husband, who happened to be a man.


How absolutely off the wall is that!

Let's all marry, divorce, and remarry again, and different sexes while we're at it. Today I love women, but tomorrow I'm going to love men better.

Boy, is our world ever screwed up!


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> What about the ”judge not lest you be judged“ thing?



Actually, Shalimar, we ALL judge others, one way or another. Those that say they don't, well, they do. They just don't want to admit it. 
I was "judged" for years for being in rodeo, until I finally moved somewhere that wouldn't happen.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I remember when Anne Heche broke up with Ellen Degeneris in 2000 and ended up marrying a man not long afterwards.  There was quite a media storm over whether she was straight or gay.  She responded by saying that she wasn't in love with a particular gender.  She had been in love with Ellen, who happened to be a woman, and now she was in love with her husband, who happened to be a man.



She also stated, when competing on DWTS, that she took Ellen to the Premier of Volcano, that her and Tommy Lee Jones starred in. The Studio was stunned that she showed up with a woman and she stated, "that night pretty much, if not completely, ended my acting career."


----------



## JimBob1952 (Nov 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> OMG, I drive a Subaru!  Does that mean....?



Stereotypes aside, Subaru does actively market its cars to gay women.  

And that's my last word on the subject, lest I be accused of bigotry and homophobia.  

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...-came-to-be-seen-as-cars-for-lesbians/488042/


----------



## Sunny (Nov 10, 2020)

Gaer said:


> I always thought the sexes were male and female.  Now the school systems are teaching there are six sexes, not two.  Can anyone clarify this?  Who thought this up?  Why was this inagurated in the school system?  Why are the schools perpetuating this bombast?
> Forgive my ignorance in this matter but, what's going on?



Gaer, where are the school systems teaching that there are six sexes?  How do you know this?

I ask because it sounds pretty wacko to me, and at best is probably a gross oversimplification of what is actually being taught.  There are two genders, male and female. But there is an enormous number of "proclivities" that people have, way more than you are probably aware of, if you think there are only six.  So, this can't really be intelligently discussed until we have an agreement of what a "sex" is, and what a "gender" is.

A person can be biologically male and be sexually attracted to:
Only females
Only females with certain characteristics (tall, short, thin, fat, blond, brunette, blue eyes, Nordic looking, Mediterranean looking, etc.)
Any and all females
Only males, all of them
Only males with some of the distinctions listed above
Both males and females
Males or females of a certain age (or, unfortunately, sometimes a very young age)
Cruelty, sadism, masochism, mind games, etc.
All kinds of bizarre fetishes, some guys aren't interested in women or men, but are in love with their toaster

And so on. See how complicated it gets? Why limit it to six sexes? And what, exactly, is a "sex?"


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Stereotypes aside, Subaru does actively market its cars to gay women.
> 
> And that's my last word on the subject, lest I be accused of bigotry and homophobia.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...-came-to-be-seen-as-cars-for-lesbians/488042/



Thank you, I stand corrected.  I had never heard about that marketing campaign.  You have helped me shed some of my ignorance.


----------



## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> As for us, we have talked to both great niece and her so-called "husband" on Zoom,


They are both wives, there is no husband.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> She also stated, when competing on DWTS, that she took Ellen to the Premier of Volcano, that her and Tommy Lee Jones starred in. The Studio was stunned that she showed up with a woman and she stated, "that night pretty much, if not completely, ended my acting career."


Thank heavens things have changed A LOT in twenty years!


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> How absolutely off the wall is that!
> 
> Let's all marry, divorce, and remarry again, and different sexes while we're at it. Today I love women, but tomorrow I'm going to love men better.
> 
> Boy, is our world ever screwed up!


Ms. Heche's point was that she had loved two different people, one happened to be female and another happened to be male.  Gender wasn't a be-all end-all for her.  It might have been for her partners, but it wasn't for her.

I know a woman in a female-female marriage.  She doesn't describe herself as a lesbian and had previous romantic relationships with men.  She doesn't see either kind of relationship as defining her sexuality.  She just happened to fall in love with a woman.  

Over thousands of years there have been plenty of "gay for the stay" relationships.  Prisons, military situations, ships (particularly when/where women weren't permitted), and other situations where typically heterosexual people have been segregated from the opposite sex and engaged in homosexual acts rather than doing without.  Love the one you're with kinda thing.     

I don't see how that points to a screwed up world.  It might not be everyone's preference, but that doesn't mean others shouldn't partake if they so desire.


----------



## Sunny (Nov 10, 2020)

That thing about Subaru marketing to gay women was a surprise to me. My (very definitely straight) son has been a Subaru owner for many years; he loves the car, and highly recommends it. So, 3 years ago, when I decided I was tired of driving my 18-year-old Toyota Camry, I decided to give Subaru a try. At the time, I got the definite feeling that Subaru was the car of choice for young, active families. Their ads always showed families with happy kids, etc. going on a camping trip in their Subaru SUV.  So here I am, long past my days as part of a young, active family, happily cruising along in my car. I thought that was kind of funny.  I have never heard that "lesbian" thing anywhere else. Guess you learn something new every day!


----------



## win231 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> No wonder I was always exhausted in my late teens
> All my dates were nymphomaniacs


Teehee.  When my sister & I were around 19, I overheard my mom yelling at my sister, You have to learn to control your desires."
Later, I asked my mom, "Were you referring to sex?"
She said, "Yes.  She can't control her ****** desires."
I said, "Well, neither can most girls I've met.....and I'm glad they can't."
She said, "Oh.....go to hell."    
My mom was quite the hypocrite; She only married my dad after he got her pregnant.......


----------



## win231 (Nov 10, 2020)

Autumn said:


> This is a quote from the program that will be taught - "However, gender isn't about someone's anatomy, it is about who they know them self to be. "
> 
> The genders being taught are as follows -
> 
> ...


I have a non-fiction movie:  "Boys Don't Cry." Hilary Swank did a superb job playing the person.  A pretty sad story about a transgender woman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena


----------



## Ronni (Nov 10, 2020)

One of my boys dated a lovely girl and though I'd hoped it would become permanent, after a couple of years they amicably parted ways, but still remain in touch on facebook.  She and I are also in touch, probably more than my son because I'm on fb more lol!  

She dated a couple of men after my son, and then I started seeing pictures of her with a woman, whom she ultimately married.  That was 4-5 years ago, and they seem so lovely together and very happy.  When I asked my son if the question of bi-sexuality ever came up between them he said yup, that she'd told him very matter of factly that she was drawn to people rather than sexes, and had dated both men and women.  It didn't bother him at all.


----------



## RadishRose (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Heh, I'm pretty sure students today know all about most everything waaaaay before the classroom
> 
> As for me, I didn't know all that much
> 
> ...


Everytime you do this I laugh out loud. I never expect it and suddenly,,,bam- there they are!


----------



## Meanderer (Nov 10, 2020)




----------



## DaveA (Nov 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> OMG, I drive a Subaru!  Does that mean....?


I'd have to see your wardrobe to make a judgement - - - -a lot of flannels?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> That thing about Subaru marketing to gay women was a surprise to me. My (very definitely straight) son has been a Subaru owner for many years; he loves the car, and highly recommends it. So, 3 years ago, when I decided I was tired of driving my 18-year-old Toyota Camry, I decided to give Subaru a try. At the time, I got the definite feeling that Subaru was the car of choice for young, active families. Their ads always showed families with happy kids, etc. going on a camping trip in their Subaru SUV.  So here I am, long past my days as part of a young, active family, happily cruising along in my car. I thought that was kind of funny.  I have never heard that "lesbian" thing anywhere else. Guess you learn something new every day!


I/we also have a Subaru.  I am not a lesbian and my husband says he is not a lesbian either.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I/we also have a Subaru.  I am not a lesbian and my husband says he is not a lesbian either.


Yes, but does he like flannel?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Yes, but does he like flannel?


I don’t think they make flannel in 5x.  Is flannel stretchy?


----------



## asp3 (Nov 10, 2020)

Meanderer said:


>



You obviously haven't read the thread very carefully as there have been mentions of XXX, XXY and others.  Also there are people who are XX with male genitalia and XY  with female genitalia.  If you read the article I posted you are going to learn of a woman who has one side of her body XX and the other side XY.  So it isn't as simple and definite as you want it to be and that is real biology instead of incomplete knowledge of biology.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, she fell in love with both of her previous husbands. So...........
> Happy for her? Not us! We believe in what the Bible says about this.........man and woman "thing".


Which is fine, belief in the Bible.

I believe somewhat in the Bible.  But, I am aware that the Bible was written by old jewish, by birth, men.  Men, who had they known Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ was pregnant out of wedlock, would have stoned her to death without a second thought.  Had that happened, JC would never have been born, and the Christian religion would not exists.  Then, no Bible to believe in.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t think they make flannel in 5x.  Is flannel stretchy?


Hahahaha


----------



## Ronni (Nov 10, 2020)

Y'know, I have to say, taking opinions completely out of the mix, and just looking at simply the physiology of human bodies, the way they replicate the human genome....essentially the pure science....and I have to laugh.

The human body is amazing.  The design is impeccable.  However we got here, whether it's God's creation, or rising up out of the mud, or alien invasion or any other theory you might want to posit, the end result is a species capable of withstanding the enormous stressors and capriciousness of the earth and mother nature, and arriving where we are today.

The replication of humans isn't perfect. There are all manner of things that can happen, that DO happen, during that replication process, that result in .... I don't even know what word to use, because they are all so fraught these days with political correctness, efforts to not insult, to not infer inferiority or damage or imperfection.  So I'll just say that the replication process doesn't always produce the exact result that the blueprint of our DNA would expect us to produce.  We have dwarfism, and Downs Syndrome, and anomalies with organs and limbs and brains.  We have kids born with holes in their hearts, and spina bifida and blood abnormalities and the countless other differences that our replication process produces.  Children with such differences aren't condemned because they're "different."  On the contrary there are countless organizations and hospitals and support groups and everything else dedicated to supporting these kids and their families, to make life as easy as possible for them.

Why, then, should a gender dysmorphia be any different? How come it's fine to support and encourage and empathize with the families who are dealing with all those situations I mentioned with their kids, but let a child be born with the physiological equipment that determines that they're of one sex, but their brains and hearts and minds all let them know in every possible way that they're NOT that...how come they are marginalized, ridiculed, preached to, condemned for that?

How come THOSE kids are looked upon as abnormal, sinful, damaged, when their counterparts with the deformed limbs, the heart holes, the spinal abnormalities, the countless other maladies that wrench our hearts and our sympathies, how come THEY deserve our compassion while the gender issues are condemned.  It's just one more way that the human genome isn't typical, doesn't follow an a - b path, isn't absolutely perfect.

We treasure and support and fund raise and empathize with all those other imperfections.  Why not gender dysmorphia?  WHY?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> How absolutely off the wall is that!
> 
> Let's all marry, divorce, and remarry again, and different sexes while we're at it. Today I love women, but tomorrow I'm going to love men better.
> 
> Boy, is our world ever screwed up!


No, it’s not.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> They are both wives, there is no husband.


I think both are women.  How they define themselves is up to them.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y'know, I have to say, taking opinions completely out of the mix, and just looking at simply the physiology of human bodies, the way they replicate the human genome....essentially the pure science....and I have to laugh.
> 
> The human body is amazing.  The design is impeccable.  However we got here, whether it's God's creation, or rising up out of the mud, or alien invasion or any other theory you might want to posit, the end result is a species capable of withstanding the enormous stressors and capriciousness of the earth and mother nature, and arriving where we are today.
> 
> ...


WHAT?  Wow, you are terribly out of touch with the life of a disabled person.  I am sorry, you are wrong wrong wrong.  Children and adults with disabilities are marginalized, ridiculed, bullied, pushed to the side of our society, and killed before and after birth.

I have seen disabled children and adults abused by the people who are paid to care for them, just as the elderly are.  The majority of the disabled are poor, uncared for, and dumped into group homes, nursing homes, state hospitals, jails, and prisons on a daily basis.  In many of those facilities they are abused, stolen from, raped, starved, and live in constant fear.

The stories I could tell.  Disabled people don’t need or want sympathy.  @Ronni

Here‘s is one.  A beautiful baby boy born at the university hospital.  He was born dead.  He had an extremely large head, a commonly known condition know as water on the brain, sorry forget the medical name.  His mother had to have a c section, baby's head was so large.

The doctor was supposed to leave him dead.  The parents were clear.  The doctor resuscitated the baby.  Now the parents have a live baby.  Immediately, the baby is put up for adoption.  Immediately, the parents sue that doctor for wrongful life.  They won.  Where was that wonderful support you speak of?  Where was he treasured?

Turns out that baby was a brain stem baby.  Matthew Frank was born without a brain, just a fluid filled skull.  He was born only with a brain stem.  Early on it was discovered, in the hospital, that he had had a gram negative infection which harmed the brain stem.

Without a brain he could not hear or see or comprehend, with a damaged brain stem things were grim.  But even with a large head and tiny body he was beautiful.  Blonde hair and blue eyes and I remember when the adoption agency called and asked if we would take him.  Sure.  We named him Matthew Frank.  We never finalized the adoption.  He died at 12 months.  He was greatly loved.

The disability is called hydrocephalus, remembered the word this morning.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 the things is...before the media started getting so involved in all this stuff...i don't recall seeing that much stereotyping. now that the media is shouting this crap from every source possible...there's stereotyping and hate crimes galore. 

i agree that if the kids feel different they should explore it. but thinking and knowing are two different things. just because they think they might be gay or might be a girl doesn't mean their parents should go running to the nearest book store for information on it for them. they could be thinking they might be gay because of outside influence. media or otherwise.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

BTW would someone please explain the *subaru *reference because i have no idea what yall are talking about.


----------



## Ellen Marie (Nov 10, 2020)

I love all these new ideas.... particular, I love gender reveal parties young couple have to reveal the sex of unborn child.   It is pink for a girl, and blue for a boy.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 10, 2020)

asp3 said:


> It's most likely that when you were in school homosexuality was still considered a form of mental illness.
> 
> We can't be sure that anyone who committed suicide before we had the vocabulary of gender awareness didn't commit suicide for those reasons but wasn't able to express them because they didn't know how to describe what they were experiencing.  It might be that they described themselves as being crazy because they didn't feel like they were supposed to feel.  Thus your "not in their right minds" might have been a term to describe non-conventional gender awareness.
> 
> I do agree that awareness might lead some people to try things they might not have chosen to try in an earlier time period.  However I don't see that as a bad thing.  If they are aware that they have some interest in something that isn't "normal" as long as it isn't harmful to themselves or others I think they should be able to investigate their interests.


Tourette Syndrome was also considered mental illness back in the early days. Now it's a neurological disorder and the minute someone cusses someone else pops off and says "oh you must have Tourette's." and everyone has a good laugh. so i understand about stereotyping and i know what it's like to be bullied and made fun of your whole life. raising awareness hasn't done anything except make matters worse. there's just times when some things should be left alone and times when some things should be handled in private. and johnny and jane should be taught to be nice to others regardless of how they are different. that should have been done since the beginning of time. we wouldn't be in this pickle of hate crimes and stereotyping if our mothers would've told us to shut up and play nice as kids. again...jmo.

when i said not in their right minds i meant that they would commit suicide if not in their right minds but that i hadn't heard of anyone killing themselves because they weren't in the right body.


----------



## Sunny (Nov 11, 2020)

This is a teeny bit off the subject, but think how much easier it would be if we just got rid of the archaic terms "husband" and "wife," and just said, "spouse" for both genders. I mean everybody, not just people in gay marriages.  

Husband and Wife were pretty hip in Shakespeare's time; it's time to give those terms a rest.


----------



## Ronni (Nov 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> WHAT?  Wow, you are terribly out of touch with the life of a disabled person.  I am sorry, you are wrong wrong wrong.  Children and adults with disabilities are marginalized, ridiculed, bullied, pushed to the side of our society, and killed before and after birth.
> 
> I have seen disabled children and adults abused by the people who are paid to care for them, just as the elderly are.  The majority of the disabled are poor, uncared for, and dumped into group homes, nursing homes, state hospitals, jails, and prisons on a daily basis.  In many of those facilities they are abused, stolen from, raped, starved, and live in constant fear.
> 
> ...


.........aaaaand you completely missed the entire point of my post. 

Maybe because I didn't make it very well. 

Society at large accepts kids born with physical or mental disabilities.  Depending on one's life view, they're part of God's plan or the biology went wrong somewhere, or they the Mom ate the wrong things while she was pregnant....whatever.  The FACT of those disabilities are accepted as an anomaly of one kind or another in the human genome.  And there are countless easily recognized organizations to support those kids and families. March of Dimes, Special Olympics, Ronald McDonald, Make a Wish....there are just a few I can think of without even trying. 

On the OTHER hand, children born with gender dysmorphia are too often ridiculed, marginalized, treated with disgust, disrespected.....I mean, look at some of the comments on this thread alone.  This forum is a well represented microcosm of the macrocosm of society, and represents the divergence of views in society, on ANY subject. 

There is very little societal acceptance of gender dysmorphia as simply one more disability, not the way there is of many other children's disabilities, which are supported by well known organizations like the ones I've mentioned above, plus many others.


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> This is a teeny bit off the subject, but think how much easier it would be if we just got rid of the archaic terms "husband" and "wife," and just said, "spouse" for both genders. I mean everybody, not just people in gay marriages.
> 
> Husband and Wife were pretty hip in Shakespeare's time; it's time to give those terms a rest.


so now you want them to say i now pronounce you spouse and spouse at the wedding?


----------



## MarciKS (Nov 11, 2020)

Ronni said:


> .........aaaaand you completely missed the entire point of my post.
> 
> Maybe because I didn't make it very well.
> 
> ...


Ronni i also don't recall seeing a lot of media on all this either. yes I've seen the March of Dimes and all that but the media hasn't made it into a spectacle. A freak show if you will. now a days the media latches on to just about everything and tries to present it to the public as awareness but i think what it does is it adds fuel to the fire.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 11, 2020)

Ellen Marie said:


> I love all these new ideas.... particular, I love gender reveal parties young couple have to reveal the sex of unborn child.   It is pink for a girl, and blue for a boy.


Well, it was a gender reveal party that set California on fire so people should tone it down.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 11, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Why, then, should a gender dysmorphia be any different? How come it's fine to support and encourage and empathize with the families who are dealing with all those situations I mentioned with their kids, but let a child be born with the physiological equipment that determines that they're of one sex, but their brains and hearts and minds all let them know in every possible way that they're NOT that...how come they are marginalized, ridiculed, preached to, condemned for that?


Why is it different?  Fear.  Because a lot of people are secretly terrified that it defines themselves.   

So many preachers and government leaders who've made "deviant" ****** behavior the cornerstone of their platforms are then caught engaging in the very kind of behavior they've loudly railed against as sinful. (Of course, they follow up with tearful apologies, beg God's and the public's forgiveness while blaming Satan...)

The more publicly homophobic a person is, the more I suspect that person is nursing, hiding, or denying that very proclivity. "Me thinks thou doth protest too" much kind of thing.


----------



## asp3 (Nov 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> johnny and jane should be taught to be nice to others regardless of how they are different.
> 
> when i said not in their right minds i meant that they would commit suicide if not in their right minds but that i hadn't heard of anyone killing themselves because they weren't in the right body.



I agree completely we should be teaching more acceptance and understanding at all levels of children getting direction from adults.  The adults should also be showing more acceptance and understanding to be good examples for their children.  When a parent, teacher, religious leader or political leader denigrates, teases or talks negatively about others based on their orientation, race, religion, country of origin, etc... they are giving their children an example of thinking less of others and not showing acceptance and understanding.

The point I was trying to make about "in their right minds" was that without the context of knowing that some people do not feel like they are in the right body or they didn't know that sometimes people are physically attracted to members of their own sex the people might have felt they were in their right minds and that might have driven them to suicide.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 11, 2020)

Ronni said:


> .........aaaaand you completely missed the entire point of my post.
> 
> Maybe because I didn't make it very well.
> 
> ...


No, I understood your point.  That’s why I said you are wrong, and you are still wrong.  Society, in general, does not include people with disabilities.  The organizations you speak of are supported and pretty much run by people who have disabilities or disabled family members.

How many disabled people do you see working at Walmart?  Or your local grocery store?  At the movie theater?  Vs how many non disabled people in your area or places you vacation?  How many did you see working on your honeymoon?  How many disabled people do you personally know?  If they disabled have main stream jobs, they are for the most part, working in the back rooms not in the front.

Have you ever been to a restaurant where a disabled person, in a wheelchair, is seating and the waitress is yelling at him or any elderly person.  Because it is assumed these people can not hear.  I hear fine, btw.  I am sorry but you simply do not know what you are talking about.  IMO, of course.  You know, I am the person who has 4 living disabled children and 3 dead disabled children.

Another story which represents society‘s view of a disabled baby:  I lived one mile from where this event happened.

Their baby was born with Downs Syndrome.  They claimed he was hard to feed and when found he was pretty much starved.  I guess they got tired of his crying, due to hunger and on trash collection day they threw him, alive, into the trash can.

A neighbor took her trash can to the curb.  She heard a soft mewing sound and thought someone had thrown a kitten away.  She opened the lid, thinking to rescue the kitten.  She found a starving baby.  .  The baby died.

The parents were charged with murder.  They were not convicted.  Some of what the judge said was that the parents had “suffered enough”.  I suppose having a disabled child is a great burden to some.  The thing is children with Down’s syndrome are highly sought after in the adoption community.  I would have adopted that baby.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> so now you want them to say i now pronounce you spouse and spouse at the wedding?


I would think they would use their names.  More modern.


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## StarSong (Nov 11, 2020)

Having been to a few gay weddings, nobody was offended by "I now pronounce you wife and wife" or "husband and husband."


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## Sunny (Nov 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> so now you want them to say i now pronounce you spouse and spouse at the wedding?


Well, spouse and spouse sounds silly, but how about "I now pronounce you spouses?"


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## StarSong (Nov 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, spouse and spouse sounds silly, but how about "I now pronounce you spouses?"


Do you think people are uncomfortable with husband and husband, wife and wife, or husband and wife?


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 11, 2020)

I have a friend who is intersex (used to be termed hermaphrodite).  Her mother never told her and i don't know if surgery was done when she was a child but she found out after trying to have children that she was born with two sets of genitals.  In those cases, usually the parents choose what sex and surgery is performed a young age. So would she have been considered the 3rd sex?  When my son was about 8 (44 years ago), he had to have minor surgery and was in the pediatric ward. There was a baby who was born with two sets of genitals; I heard the nurses talking about it.


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## StarSong (Nov 11, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I have a friend who is intersex (used to be termed hermaphrodite).  Her mother never told her and i don't know if surgery was done when she was a child but she found out after trying to have children that she was born with two sets of genitals.  In those cases, usually the parents choose what sex and surgery is performed a young age. So would she have been considered the 3rd sex?  When my son was about 8 (44 years ago), he had to have minor surgery and was in the pediatric ward. There was a baby who was born with two sets of genitals; I heard the nurses talking about it.


What a dilemma for parents. Can't even imagine trying to figure out the best path to choose.


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## asp3 (Nov 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> What a dilemma for parents. Can't even imagine trying to figure out the best path to choose.



One of the articles I posted earlier said that the suggested course of action these days is to let the child grow up as they are until they start showing behavior consistent with one sex or the other.


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## Jules (Nov 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, spouse and spouse sounds silly, but how about "I now pronounce you spouses?"



Or, I now pronounce you legally wed.  

Really, does the officiant have to _pronounce_ anything?  There can be a variety of things to say at the end of the ceremony.


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## win231 (Nov 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Having been to a few gay weddings, nobody was offended by "I now pronounce you wife and wife" or "husband and husband."


I wouldn't be offended, but it would sound weird to me.  And it still does.


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## Sunny (Nov 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Do you think people are uncomfortable with husband and husband, wife and wife, or husband and wife?



I am uncomfortable with "husband" in general, though in my 54 years of marriage, of course that was how I referred to my er, spouse. The word means "master of the house" and has connotations of being frugal with resources, or animal husbandry. It just has an archaic sound to it.

So it isn't the "husband and husband" part of it, it's the word itself. I like Jules' suggestion in #168.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 11, 2020)

Funny, but wife and I both think of each other as the "in-charge" person. There are those that wonder why my wife has to be on our boat when it goes out on the water or why she has to be with me whenever I go to the shooting range. Well, she is a very good boat person, helps launch/retrieve it. As far as the range goes, she has her own S&M 9mm handgun and Ruger .22 rifle that she loves shooting. 

I'm her husband and she is my wife.


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## StarSong (Nov 11, 2020)

Interesting, @Sunny, I never thought of my sweetie's title of husband in that way.


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## gennie (Nov 11, 2020)

Bottom line is - it's a title and we are each allowed to call ourselves whatever we wish as long as it doesn't harm or infringe on the rights of others.


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## Sunny (Nov 11, 2020)

Actually, we made kind of a joke out of the word. Once, I accidentally mispronounced it as "hubsin," and from then on, whenever the word came up, we would say it that way.

But of course, that isn't what this thread is about, is it? The OP is bemoaning the fact that schools (what grade, what kind of schools?) are supposedly teaching that there are six sexes. As I pointed out above, there are two genders, other than biological abnormalities, but many more than six ****** orientations. 

The rabbis who wrote the Old Testament did their best, but that was thousands of years ago, and a lot less was known about the human condition. The fact that something was not mentioned in the Bible does not mean it doesn't exist.


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## Ronni (Nov 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> No, I understood your point.  That’s why I said you are wrong, and you are still wrong.  Stop drinking the PR Kool aid.  Society, in general, does not include people with disabilities.  The organizations you speak of are supported and pretty much run by people who have disabilities or disabled family members.
> 
> How many disabled people do you see working at Walmart?  Or your local grocery store?  At the movie theater?  Vs how many non disabled people in your area or places you vacation?  How many did you see working on your honeymoon?  How many disabled people do you personally know?  If they disabled have main stream jobs, they are for the most part, working in the back rooms not in the front.
> 
> ...


No, you're the one who didn't understand. But I'll attribute that to my inability to make my point.  I'll take another run at it when I'm not so tired.  

Please.  Don't insult me with the KoolAid comment.  I don't deserve it.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 11, 2020)

Ronni said:


> No, you're the one who didn't understand. But I'll attribute that to my inability to make my point.  I'll take another run at it when I'm not so tired.
> 
> Please.  Don't insult me with the KoolAid comment.  I don't deserve it.


Ok I removed the kool aid comment since you felt it was insulting.  Whether you deserve it or not is a matter of opinion.  In return, I expect you to stop insulting ME with your I don’t understand the point you are trying to make.  It’s not a question if understand, I understand, I understand you are wrong.  Accept that you are wrong.

Now try and listen.  Please either answer my questions about your contact with disabled people over the years, and/or educate yourself better as to the blight the disabled.  The other alternative stop saying, to a mother who has raised four disabled children to adulthood that she “doesn’t understand” and you understand better, YOU DON”T.  You never will.

As I have mentioned, I have two granddaughters who dated girls for 3 years, one crossed dressed. They were certain they were lesbians, they discovered they were wrong.  How many of your relatives date the same sex or cross dress?  Please, do answer the question.  My granddaughters would never compare their challenges to the challenges of a disabled person.


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## Warrigal (Nov 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, spouse and spouse sounds silly, but how about "I now pronounce you spouses?"


Or I now proclaim you legally wed,  each to the other?


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## StarSong (Nov 12, 2020)

I don't understand the attempts to maneuver around "wife & wife" or "husband & husband," which is the way most married gay couples refer to themselves.  Why would others find that so problematic?


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## Pepper (Nov 12, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I don't understand the attempts to maneuver around "wife & wife" or "husband & husband," which is the way most married gay couples refer to themselves.  *Why would others find that so problematic*?


It's their way or the highway.  Can't MTOB.


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## Sunny (Nov 12, 2020)

> How many disabled people do you see working at Walmart?  Or your local grocery store?



Until pretty recently, my local supermarket had a fellow, obviously with Downs syndrome, bagging groceries. He was pleasant and efficient, and did his job well.

However, in recent months, of course they don't have anyone bagging groceries. You have to do it yourself. I hope he didn't lose his job (probably did.)


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Until pretty recently, my local supermarket had a fellow, obviously with Downs syndrome, bagging groceries. He was pleasant and efficient, and did his job well.
> 
> However, in recent months, of course they don't have anyone bagging groceries. You have to do it yourself. I hope he didn't lose his job (probably did.)


People with Downs syndrome and other disabilities are, in most states, in quarantine for protection from the virus, because of preexisting conditions.  He can probably have the job back when the virus is over and he is vaccinated.

My son worked at a restaurant wrapping forks and spoons in a napkin and putting butter in a dish. He really needed the money he made and he can not get unemployment.  It was great when his group home got a fourth roommate to help split the bills.


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## Pecos (Nov 15, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans
> 
> *The Six Most Common Karyotypes*
> 
> ...


Very interesting thread on a subject where I am completely ignorant. Some of the views and comments were particularly revealing. 

I do have a couple of quick questions in case anyone knows:
1. Would I be correct in assuming that this distribution in common across the globe and all cultures?
2. Does a similar pattern exist among other mammals?


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## Elsie (Nov 15, 2020)

Male, or female, what else is there?  Outer space alien?
Could be that when a child has an emotional & ****** desire for one of their same gender , it could be they were born with a hormonal, neurological mishap.  That does not make them less able to(as many have proven) to do well in life.
I do not believe homosexuality is fine and dandy, nor should it be condemned.  However, male and female DNA is still a part of them, they are not a 'third' sex.


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## Elsie (Nov 15, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> no offense but this kind of thing was never discussed or taught in school. and i never saw anyone kill themselves because they weren't in their right body. not in their right minds maybe. i just find it odd how society is always latching on to the next new hip thing. everyone suddenly thinks they have a disability or they suddenly think their gay or transgendered. it's always something. if some goof ball turned around tomorrow and said we came from cats and not apes like they originally thought, what kind of behavior do you think people would exhibit then? swapping out protein bars with catnip bars and licking their hands and wearing collars?
> 
> just for the record, i'm not mad, please don't get all up in arms. this is just an opinion. i'm not out to offend anyone or make anyone mad.


Love it.


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## Elsie (Nov 15, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y'know, I have to say, taking opinions completely out of the mix, and just looking at simply the physiology of human bodies, the way they replicate the human genome....essentially the pure science....and I have to laugh.
> 
> The human body is amazing.  The design is impeccable.  However we got here, whether it's God's creation, or rising up out of the mud, or alien invasion or any other theory you might want to posit, the end result is a species capable of withstanding the enormous stressors and capriciousness of the earth and mother nature, and arriving where we are today.
> 
> ...


Excellent and so true.  I've personal experience with "Why are you shaking!?"  Essential Tremor disorder.


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## Elsie (Nov 15, 2020)

Elsie said:


> Excellent and so true.  I've personal experience with "Why are you shaking!?"  Essential Tremor disorder.


Sorry you have E T.  It's so much fun when people see you shaking they right away think alcohol or drug abuse or you 
area nervous wreck.     sheesh.


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## asp3 (Nov 15, 2020)

Elsie said:


> Male, or female, what else is there?  Outer space alien?
> Could be that when a child has an emotional & ****** desire for one of their same gender , it could be they were born with a hormonal, neurological mishap.  That does not make them less able to(as many have proven) to do well in life.
> I do not believe homosexuality is fine and dandy, nor should it be condemned.  However, male and female DNA is still a part of them, they are not a 'third' sex.



Please read the article on two genders is not correct that I posted earlier.  They explain it more accurately than I could ever try to do.  The information is out there one only needs to read it and agree, disagree or accept that there is more to the view than they had considered and realize they need to learn more to form an opinion.


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## asp3 (Nov 15, 2020)

Pecos said:


> Very interesting thread on a subject where I am completely ignorant. Some of the views and comments were particularly revealing.
> 
> I do have a couple of quick questions in case anyone knows:
> 1. Would I be correct in assuming that this distribution in common across the globe and all cultures?
> 2. Does a similar pattern exist among other mammals?



Great questions!  I'll have to look to find out if I can see if there are answers to them.

We know that there are non biological pairings that occur in nature (female-female parings in seagulls and male-male pairings in penguins) but I'm not aware of it happening in mammals.  However we do know that female bonobos do form bonds or have ****** relations to strengthen their relationships.


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## win231 (Nov 15, 2020)

It's all Caitlyn Jenner's fault.


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