# Illegal Immigration



## Don M. (Mar 1, 2016)

Illegal Immigration is one of the many problems this nation has to deal with.  Here is an article/editorial that puts this problem in perspective better than anything coming from our politicians.

http://www.goall.com/article/lets-say-i-break-into-your-house.html


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## Warrigal (Mar 2, 2016)

That "article/editorial" contains material plagiarised from a book titled "Soundoff" by I.S. Petteice

Other titles from this author include _Legacy: The True Inglorious History of President Obama, The Lyin Kings _(about Hillary and Obama ?) and _Sell Your Soul _(about the second amendment)

Clearly she has a political agenda and anyone who wishes can search for her work here at Amazon Books http://www.amazon.com/I.-S.-Petteice/e/B00IYZPW8S

I have a different perspective on immigration. It is that none of us owns the earth, not even the corner on which we live. In the history of every nation state is a story of dispossession of an earlier nation/race/civilisation. At best we are stewards of our homeland and stewardship does not mean we build a fence around our borders to deny entry to people desperately in need of a homeland or a chance to provide for their families as long as they come in peace. Those who come on warships armed with guns, bombs and drones are not welcome and will be resisted because invasion is not the polite way to knock on anyone's front door.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> ... Those who come on warships armed with guns, bombs and drones are not welcome and will be resisted because invasion is not the polite way to knock on anyone's front door.



And what of those who knock on the door wearing a sheep's costume, but are actually wolves?

THAT is the main problem the U.S. has. We welcome honest, hard-working immigrants who will be a credit to the country - we don't really favor the trouble-makers. But how to tell them apart?


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## Shalimar (Mar 2, 2016)

We seem to be managing. Currently we have 25,ooo carefully  vetted Syrian refugees, comprised of women, children, families.
No young single men at this time. Canada deems them to be safe and welcome additions to our diverse Canadian multicultural family, rather than potential threats.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> And what of those who knock on the door wearing a sheep's costume, but are actually wolves?
> 
> THAT is the main problem the U.S. has. We welcome honest, hard-working immigrants who will be a credit to the country - we don't really favor the trouble-makers. But how to tell them apart?



If you're going to be totally paranoid why not just ban everybody from coming in - tourists, immigrants, and those doing business with the US? 

Plenty of home grown troublemakers already living there.


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## Ralphy1 (Mar 2, 2016)

Furriners can be such a bother...


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> We seem to be managing. Currently we have 25,ooo carefully  vetted Syrian refugees, comprised of women, children, families.
> No young single men at this time. Canada deems them to be safe and welcome additions to our diverse Canadian multicultural family, rather than potential threats.



That might be the answer - women and children only. 



Ameriscot said:


> If you're going to be totally paranoid why not just ban everybody from coming in - tourists, immigrants, and those doing business with the US?
> 
> Plenty of home grown troublemakers already living there.



We have reasons to be paranoid - 2,977 of them at Ground Zero, 125 at the Pentagon plus a sprinkling of other killings since then.  Then of course we have the loss of jobs to illegals.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> That might be the answer - women and children only.
> 
> 
> 
> We have reasons to be paranoid - 2,977 of them at Ground Zero, 125 at the Pentagon plus a sprinkling of other killings since then.  Then of course we have the loss of jobs to illegals.



How about a count of who is killing the 10,000+ per year, every year??  How many of those are illegals?  Nope, those are just the guy next door who seemed so nice and was quiet.  How many times do you hear that?


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> How about a count of who is killing the 10,000+ per year, every year??  How many of those are illegals?  Nope, those are just the guy next door who seemed so nice and was quiet.  How many times do you hear that?



I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about - could you clarify, please? Are you referring to the homicide rate in the U.S.?


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## Don M. (Mar 2, 2016)

Unchecked and Uncontrolled immigration can have a major impact on a nation.  Consider what happened to the Native American Indian populations when the European migration hit this nation...by the end of the 19th Century, the Native Indian cultures were pretty much wiped out.  If present trends continue, the U.S. will experience another major demographic change by the end of this 21st century.  The Syrian refugee crisis currently engulfing much of Europe is going to have major, and increasing consequences for those nations.  

The movements of large quantities of people Always results in major social issues.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about - could you clarify, please? Are you referring to the homicide rate in the U.S.?



You are worried about illegals killing Americans, but you forget about the Americans killing other Americans at an exponentially higher rate.


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## Don M. (Mar 2, 2016)

If you are "worried" about the U.S. homicide rates, the U.S. ranks well below many of the less developed nations.  This chart, for example, ranks the U.S. as the 91st most "dangerous" nation.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

While the media reports extensively on the occasional mass murders...usually committed by some deranged individual...it ignores the daily murders that take place in the inner cities, which are generally committed by those in the drug and street gangs...and which account for the majority of violent acts.

This Murder Rate has little to do with Immigration....most of the individuals responsible are "citizens".


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> You are worried about illegals killing Americans, but you forget about the Americans killing other Americans at an exponentially higher rate.



Don's last line in his response is pretty much how I see that problem. Homicides and acts of terror are often two different problems. 



Don M. said:


> If you are "worried" about the U.S. homicide rates, the U.S. ranks well below many of the less developed nations.  This chart, for example, ranks the U.S. as the 91st most "dangerous" nation.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
> 
> ...


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## Karen99 (Mar 2, 2016)

Let's see..this thread is about the immigrant problem...well I agree it's a problem with our southern border left open..with apparently no end in sight.  I have no idea why this is ok and I'd love to hear why it shouldn't be closed..should Mexico and the USA just become one big huge country?  

The other issue I guess is Syrian refugees/immigrants..well I know there are real fears there so that's why things are where they are now.  I don't think it's islamaphobic or any other long words.  It's about wondering how this is going to play out over time.  Not all Americans are that worried, but we are embroiled in an election year with emotions running high over many issues.  It's a shame many of Syria's own ME neighbors have taken in zero refugees..and so they are pretty much flooding out the neighbor's who will take them and Europe.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

Don M. said:


> If you are "worried" about the U.S. homicide rates, the U.S. ranks well below many of the less developed nations.  This chart, for example, ranks the U.S. as the 91st most "dangerous" nation.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
> 
> ...



What's the point of comparing the US to developing countries.  It should only be compared with other developed 'rich' countries.  And the US is by far number one in that category.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

Don M. said:


> If you are "worried" about the U.S. homicide rates, the U.S. ranks well below many of the less developed nations.  This chart, for example, ranks the U.S. as the 91st most "dangerous" nation.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
> 
> ...



You are worried about the wrong people.  You should be worried about your neighbours, not a few thousand migrants.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> You are worried about the wrong people.  You should be worried about your neighbours, not a few thousand migrants.



Have you ever tried to mop up a water leak without first turning off the water?


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Have you ever tried to mop up a water leak without first turning off the water?



Excuse me while I go bash my head against a brick wall.....


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## BobF (Mar 2, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> What's the point of comparing the US to developing countries.  It should only be compared with other developed 'rich' countries.  And the US is by far number one in that category.



Stacking the deck to try to make an impression.    Other developed and rich countries end up higher and lower on those lists.


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## Don M. (Mar 2, 2016)

Ameriscot said:


> What's the point of comparing the US to developing countries.  It should only be compared with other developed 'rich' countries.  And the US is by far number one in that category.



Well, I initiated this thread with a comment I found regarding illegal immigration.  You, however, chose to "divert" it to a topic on homicides.  If you feel strongly on that subject, you can start a thread on that issue.  

I am Not against Legal Immigration, there are thousands of people waiting patiently as they go through the process of applying for entry into nations they want to go to.  However, I have minimal sympathy for those whose first action on their "new" nations soil is to violate the law.  Either we have laws, or we don't...and responsible people don't pick and chose which laws they decide to obey.


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## Butterfly (Mar 2, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> Let's see..this thread is about the immigrant problem...well I agree it's a problem with our southern border left open..with apparently no end in sight.  I have no idea why this is ok and I'd love to hear why it shouldn't be closed..should Mexico and the USA just become one big huge country?
> 
> The other issue I guess is Syrian refugees/immigrants..well I know there are real fears there so that's why things are where they are now.  I don't think it's islamaphobic or any other long words.  It's about wondering how this is going to play out over time.  Not all Americans are that worried, but we are embroiled in an election year with emotions running high over many issues.  It's a shame many of Syria's own ME neighbors have taken in zero refugees..and so they are pretty much flooding out the neighbor's who will take them and Europe.



I agree -- I live in a state which has been very negatively impacted by illegal  immigration from both Mexico and Central and South America.  

As to the refugees, I am  still waiting for someone in the government to explain how we are going to meaningfully "vet" people who come from a country whose infrastructure has collapsed, many of whom have no papers at all and cannot even begin to prove who they are.


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## boozercruiser (Mar 2, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> I agree -- I live in a state which has been very negatively impacted by illegal  immigration from both Mexico and Central and South America.
> 
> As to the refugees, I am  still waiting for someone in the government to explain how we are going to meaningfully "vet" people who come from a country whose infrastructure has collapsed, many of whom have no papers at all and cannot even begin to prove who they are.



It sounds like your country is having exactly the same problems as the UK Butterfly.
The whole situation is an ongoing nightmare which useless politicians haven't a clue what to do about.

But one way and another, the quicker the drawbridge is pulled up the better, for both countries.

If I were American, I would be saying, bring on Trump's wall!


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## FazeFour (Mar 2, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> ... I have a different perspective on immigration...



Just want to point out; the topic is _illegal_ immigration. America welcomes immigrants from all over, but there are legal steps required to becoming a long-term or permanent resident.

When the gov't merged the INS with Homeland Security, the path to citizenship went totally tits-up, and the country lost reliable oversight over the flow of immigrants. It shouldn't take ten to fifteen years to become a citizen, for cripe's sake. And with these two departments working together, why are there even border leaks? Clearly, something's totally whacked.


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## Butterfly (Mar 2, 2016)

boozercruiser said:


> It sounds like your country is having exactly the same problems as the UK Butterfly.
> The whole situation is an ongoing nightmare which useless politicians haven't a clue what to do about.
> 
> But one way and another, the quicker the drawbridge is pulled up the better, for both countries.
> ...



I am actually IN America.  My state is New Mexico, and we have a border with Mexico and have an ongoing problem with illegal immigration -- last year it was a LOT worse than usual.


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## tnthomas (Mar 2, 2016)

Illegal immigration is on the delcine, but  politicians that seek to make illegal immigration an 'issue' in this election evidently have a better grasp on rhetoric than they do with facts.

I personally agree that border security is important, but more so to deter terrorism than dealing with poor people seeking work.


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## Manatee (Mar 2, 2016)

The American Indians were unable to control immigration and became relegated to the lesser parts of the nation.  They didn't get citizenship until the 1920s.
We as a nation need to learn from that, before it is too late.


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## Butterfly (Mar 2, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> Illegal immigration is on the delcine, but  politicians that seek to make illegal immigration an 'issue' in this election evidently have a better grasp on rhetoric than they do with facts.
> 
> I personally agree that border security is important, but more so to deter terrorism than dealing with poor people seeking work.



It certainly isn't on the decline in the Southwest US.  

[h=1]Illegal Immigration Surge: 106% More Unaccompanied Minors, 173% More 'Family Units' Apprehended[/h]                    By Penny Starr | December 28, 2015 | 3:30 PM EST 

(*CNSNews.com*) – The latest U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) statistics show that illegal immigration by unaccompanied minors and family units surged during the first two months of FY2016 compared to the same period in FY2015.


According to CPB, 106 percent more unaccompanied alien children (UAC) under the age of 17 were apprehended illegally crossing the southern border of the U.S. between Oct. 1 and Nov. 30, 2015 than during the same time a year ago.


Statistics released by the federal agency show that 10,588 UACs were apprehended at the nation’s southern border with Mexico compared to the first two months of FY2015, when 5,129 UACs were taken into custody.


The surge in unaccompanied minors was concentrated in two sectors – Big Bend in Texas and Yuma in Arizona– which both saw a more than 500 percent increase in the number of UACs crossing into the U.S. illegally. The El Paso sector was next, reporting a 250 percent increase.


The statistics also show an even larger surge in the number of family units apprehended at the border - a 173 percent increase so far in the first two months of FY2016.
According to statistics from FY2015 (Oct. 1 to Nov. 30, 2014) 4,577 family units were apprehended at the southwest border, compared to 12,505 during the same period in FY2016.
Three sectors – Big Bend, El Paso in Texas, and Yuma – saw more than a 500 percent increase in family unit apprehensions.


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## Karen99 (Mar 2, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> Illegal immigration is on the delcine, but  politicians that seek to make illegal immigration an 'issue' in this election evidently have a better grasp on rhetoric than they do with facts.
> 
> I personally agree that border security is important, but more so to deter terrorism than dealing with poor people seeking work.



I am not sure how 11 million illegal immigrants is not an "issue"..which is a conservative estimate.  I feel the reason there are less coming is because jobs are increasingly scarce here and all the border states are overloaded with workers who can't find work..above or under the table.  

"Poor people seeking work" would include Americans like the 1400 recently who Carrier let go so they could relocate to Mexico..which would obviously create more jobs for the labor force there.  

Why bother having immigration laws if they don't apply to people coming here from Mexico and South America..etc. through our southern border...why not just set a quota and have a raffle for who gets to cross the border in a given year.


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## Butterfly (Mar 3, 2016)

There are NOT fewer coming in -- there are MORE.  See the CBS news post above.  Illegal immigration is a huge issue in the southwest.  I don't know where tnthomas got the idea illegal immigration is decreasing!


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## Karen99 (Mar 3, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> There are NOT fewer coming in -- there are MORE.  See the CBS news post above.  Illegal immigration is a huge issue in the southwest.  I don't know where tnthomas got the idea illegal immigration is decreasing!



Well Butterfly, I live in CA..and we boast the most illegals..and from what I can gather via Internet that's about 25% of all.  I honestly see articles claiming it's more or less..but not significantly and its noted it's usually about how well things are going in the economy.  I'm no expert on anything..but I see the problems in my own state.  The latest thing was a campaign to fund health care for all illegals. kind of ironic many Americans slip across the border for cheaper medications.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 3, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> Illegal immigration is on the delcine, but  politicians that seek to make illegal immigration an 'issue' in this election evidently have a better grasp on rhetoric than they do with facts.
> 
> I personally agree that border security is important, but more so to deter terrorism than dealing with poor people seeking work.



Illegal immigration from Mexico might have declined but from personal experience living in a high immigrant/illegal immigrant area, especially during the time of that study there is no way that illegal immigration in those areas has declined. 

There always has been under reporting from the Caribbean countries, the Islands and South America. The number that might be usable are visa or passport over stays. But I've worked with many new citizens and they all seem to have stories from when they "weren't legal". The very nature of ILLEGAL or 'undocumented' makes an accurate count tough. Especially when relying on census numbers which is a survey requiring honesty for accuracy by those harboring illegals. A common complaint is those caught sneak right back in. I've read too many stories especially from sanctuary cites where and illegal immigrant criminal has a record of deportations/apprehensions.

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/the-pitfalls-of-counting-illegal-immigrants-937/

My biggest thing is just let the Border Patrol do their job to the fullest, eliminate sanctuary cites, follow up on deportations & hearings and make becoming a legal resident a faster but not easier. Invest more in the LEGAL PROCESS, that could mean more courts & staff . That also means if the process says the illegal immigrant can't stay so be it.  You don't need or won't have storm trooper raids hunting illegals but they need to be served with deportation orders/court order just like a non violent criminal or civil litigant. And if they are considered dangerous or a felon yes a swat team maybe necessary.


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## tnthomas (Mar 3, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> My biggest thing is just let the Border Patrol do their job to the fullest, eliminate sanctuary cites, follow up on deportations & hearings and make becoming a legal resident a faster but not easier. Invest more in the LEGAL PROCESS, that could mean more courts & staff . That also means if the process says the illegal immigrant can't stay so be it.  You don't need or won't have storm trooper raids hunting illegals but they need to be served with deportation orders/court order just like a non violent criminal or civil litigant. And if they are considered dangerous or a felon yes a swat team maybe necessary.




Agreed.


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