# Punishment is it enough,



## whisteria (Jun 13, 2015)

Hello folks,
Ive been reading the bbc news ref all sorts of crimes  and im wondering if the punishment is far to soft?
It's an old saying crime does'nt pay "But" is crime really a no go area as it once was?

It seems no problem or embarrassment to return to prison "infact people on verious tv shows dont turn a cheek to say while i was in prison such & such happend

Should it be that once anyone is in prison they never want to have a second term ever again.


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## Warrigal (Jun 13, 2015)

Punishment is the left hand of justice but rehabilitation is the right.
If gaol simply institutionalises someone, it has failed.
Recidivism is the inevitable result.


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## oakapple (Jun 13, 2015)

Sometimes it does seem that the punishment is too lenient, but we don't have all the knowledge that the judge has about an offender, they take certain things into consideration before a sentence.There has to be some sort of less time served also for good behaviour, otherwise prisoners would be rioting all the time. true, we want everyone to not ever want a second time in prison but as DW says in her post above, rehabilitation is also needed or they will re-offend.


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## 911 (Jun 13, 2015)

I have mixed feelings about such things. What I don't like are some of the "deals" that are cut between prosecutors and a defendant's attorney.I also notice that a lot of judges do not hand out sentences fairly. Some sentences seemed to be based on social class, money, gender and race. Thomas Jefferson made the statement that "All men are created equal." What he should have added is that "All men should be treated equal."  

Just my opinion.


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## whisteria (Jun 13, 2015)

Firstly good morning to one and all and im hoping your all having a nice day,

Ive read all the comments and thoughts on the subject and ive one or two things to talk about here,

(1) we keep hearing and seeing on the verious news stations and in the press that when  (and this is the important part) someone is found tobe guilty they are given a sentence "but" they dont go to gaol "but are given suspended sentences,!!!!

Whats the good in such a sentence? how did the offender get to have their daily life upset or changed?  How will such a sentence make any other person think twice before they go out and do the same "CRIME" and lets face it these are "Crimes" and the victim has already suffered 'they didnt get their part suspended'

It can't be a good or satisficing thing to know or see the person who committed some really evil crimes walking the streets or even able to see them walking past their front doors.

(2)Being locked up,
 From the amount of reoffenders that keep going back to gaol time and time again and to a life of pool tables, tv in cells and infact able to have the time and meanes to contact the outside world and continue to do deals with people outside of gaol !!!!!!!
Should'nt gaol be the last place on earth you 'd ever want to be in?

Whats happend to if you commit the crime you do the time? Whats happend to knowing right from wrong????

Ive read about a gang of youths who urinated on graves, "Now they didn't know  anyone in those graves" it was just something to do, a laugh.
WHAT DID THEY GET????? Community service,

To me thats the Laughable part of the sentence, 
Anyone can make a mistake "but" to do something illegal a second time or a third or to make a life of crime then that becomes something that if the first punishment didn't work we only have the system to blame.

I think one question should be asked here, if you we're asked what countries prison you wouldnt like to spend any time in what country would it be ??? And why?


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## chic (Jun 14, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Punishment is the left hand of justice but rehabilitation is the right.
> If gaol simply institutionalises someone, it has failed.
> Recidivism is the inevitable result.



Very true. Rehabilitation, education, preparation for life as a responsible citizen should be the goal of prison and if it isn't the system fails.


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## mitchezz (Jun 14, 2015)

I know someone who is a Prison Guard. He said that being too severe and harsh makes prisoners very resentful and that resentment often spills over into violence against both prison guards and other prisoners. I'm not suggesting that prisoners be pampered but I agree that rehabilitation is just as important as punishment.


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

The easiest way I can respond to your post is to insert my thoughts in blue. Hope this is OK with you.



whisteria said:


> Firstly good morning to one and all and im hoping your all having a nice day,
> 
> Ive read all the comments and thoughts on the subject and ive one or two things to talk about here,
> 
> ...


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## Laurie (Jun 14, 2015)

Any noncom will tell you the way to make people fight is to make them more scared of you than they are of the enemy!

The same should apply to prison.  We used to have something called "Preventative Detention" when a judge could decide that a recidivist  would continue to offend any time they were free, and should therefore be locked up to "prevent" them doing so.

Thus you could have twenty years for a simple bit of shoplifting.  The ungodly were terrified of it!

We also used to have something called "Hard Labour".  A bit of that wouldn't come amiss.  

The right hand of justice may be rehabilitation, but the hand should wear a chainmail  gauntlet!


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## LinuxFan (Jun 14, 2015)

Sending some offenders to jail can be just plain crazy and a waste of expensive resources. In some cases the conviction is purely vindictive ¨society revenge¨ and nothing to do with rehabilitation. At the moment in the UK we are banging up old men in their eighties for sex offences dating back fifty or so years. Where´s the rehab in that? Why not get them to pay cash compensation to the victims? Many of them are quite wealthy. What is the point of jailing someone so old? They´ll probably spend most of the time in the hospital wing due to physical frailty.
 Jailing youths tends to turn them into hardened criminals, as ¨rehabilitation¨ usually depends on a job on release, and jobs aren´t easy to come by for the law-abiding never mind an ex con. The system is archaic, and needs a top to bottom rethink. Don´t hold your breath though.


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## Shalimar (Jun 14, 2015)

Laurie, "ungodly?"


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

Laurie, perhaps you forget that my country was built on the labour of convicted felons. 
When their sentences were over, most stayed on and became productive farmers, builders, architects, even a surgeon. 

Even in those days you only got 7 years for theft or forgery. Don't you think 20 years for shoplifting is a bit over the top?


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## whisteria (Jun 14, 2015)

Then why is it that child sex abusers are known to fear gaol because of the hidings given out to them?

Then person that killed "APRIL JONES" from mid wales has been beaten and cut by other inmates,
Are you saying such a beast should be reformed to walk the streets again?
Should people that really are evil and commit evil things to others enjoy the luxury life style a lot of prisoners get?


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

Whisteria, you are all over the shop. Are we talking about child sex abusers or shoplifters? 

I don't hold out much hope for reformation of paedophiles. I had a friend who was a prison psychologist specialising in these types of offenders and he was quite clear about this bleak outlook. Career criminals are also hard to reform. 

Gaol is perfectly appropriate for men and women who are a serious threat to the public. For young offenders who commit crimes against property it is my opinion that they can be redeemed if handled well. If at all possible they should be kept away from the hard men who will suck them into a life of perpetual criminality.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 14, 2015)

Don't want to do the time then don't do the crime. I have absolutely no sympathy for any guilty person put in jail.
There is no such thing as "life in prison", they get out eventually to kill again.


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## whisteria (Jun 14, 2015)

Hello Dame,
Firstly Im not all over the shop at all
the thread is about crime, any crime,
If for instance an old couple are beated up by youths who knocked on their front door one evening , this is a crime against a couple minding their own business in their own home and here in the uk this very crime happend last week both people are in their 80's and 90's And now they are scared to death everytime someone knocks on the door.

We have care-workers stealing their patients money while they are to old to know whats going on (cctv cameras have been installed by the patients children to catch these people, 
But its still theft,
Can you tell me why you think these people should not go to goal? 

And on an other scale a young man has taken his own life because he was bullied and just couldnt cope,
are you telling me these two very different crimes are not as serious to those who suffered the outcome of both crimes? And their loved ones?
It was a case of black-mail ref the lad who took his own life, whats your idea ref the bullies who pushed him to far?

Or if someone thieves from your home "your" goods you've worked hard for "but the thief didnt kill you" that these sorts of crimes are not to be delt with to hard a punishment "incase these sort of people can become an icon in the future?

Ive never committed any of the crimes we are talking about "but ive been the victim of theft,
 I got no reward for being the said victim and the person who did thieve from myself was infact one of the many repeat crime people, 

No i can assure you im not going all over the shop, to me crime is crime and if you decide to break the law no matter if it be driving offence or rape or murder, once found guilty then you should be delt with in such away that you think twice should you have not learnt your lesson the first time and if you "DO" decided to continue to break the Law after the first offence then perhaps a much harder time inside may make you think "IS Crime really worth while" 
But the important thing is this the normal everyday person who has not committed any crime has a right to be able to walk the street or answer a knock on the without fear And as long as the people who do want to continue to commit crime feel gaol isn't that bad (ive been there before) then it's no wonder crime is on the increase.

By the way Dame Warrigal "Have you been the victim of any crime's"?


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## whisteria (Jun 14, 2015)

Davy Jones,
Very well said, 
When i stop and consider "what is the most important thing in my life i'd hate to have taken away from me, It's not the property we own, or our pets, or even my luxury car,
All these things can be replaced,
But if i lost my wife due to crime!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im not sure i'd want to go on, but if i found the person who caused this loss was in a few years walking the streets !!!

I'd be a changed man and i fear not a very nice one.

I agree 100% of what you've said and i'll add this  "if some of these people who put so much thought into crime put just a fraction of the same effort into making a legal living "they'd be free  and enjoy a good living,
 "but they'd have only one worry in life, " (who's going to steal their hard earned cash) It' s what we call turniing the tables around.

Well said DAVEY  JONES.


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## Laurie (Jun 14, 2015)

"Don't you think 20 years for shoplifting is a bit over the top?"

No.  If someone has 150 or more convictions and steals to order, as a way of life, there is only one way of  stopping them.  They are never going to be rehabilitated, so lock them up.


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## whisteria (Jun 14, 2015)

Ok folks we've talked about theft/murder/rape and how prison should help these poor lost souls,

One more crime and then i'll say no more,

On the BBC forum news a few weeks ago was about a dog, shot through th neck with a cross bow, 
Now do you think the person wh o did this crime to get rid of the animal should be given another chance?  After all's said and done he had to get the weapon !!! and the dog !!!
find a nice out of the way spot to commit this crime and then when his deed was done he had to get himself home without being seen,

"OH" almost forgot,  The dog, it didn't die no it was found two days later "still with the bolt sticking out of it's neck " wondering around a woods,
He was found by a couple out walking,
the vet said if the bolt would have been a few centimeters closer to the dogs spine it would have died,

The dog was later shown on the tv, its got new owners and they've said he's so friendly its just not true, he really is a fantastic loving dog.

CRUEL' CRUEL' CRUEL'  No other words can describe such a person or is willing to do such acts.

Now would you like to leave your animal or child with such a person?


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## oakapple (Jun 14, 2015)

There is such a thing as 'life' here, for certain murderers, they will never get out but die in prison, and quite right too.


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## Shalimar (Jun 14, 2015)

Oakapple, the same applies here in Canada.


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## oakapple (Jun 14, 2015)

People become criminals for different reasons.Some have every good thing in life but still turn to crime, others have terrible childhoods and are either drawn into crime by others or perhaps become drug users.That's why judges and magistrates take background into consideration before they sentence anyone.I don't believe anyone thinks prisoners should be having a soft or easy time at the victim's expense, and mostly this doesn't happen anyway.


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## Shalimar (Jun 14, 2015)

Our famous serial killers, Williams, Picton, Bernardo, will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Clifford Olson died there.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 14, 2015)

So many issues and possibilities here. But one thing as a society that could be done is reward good behavior. Certain things in life should be for those who fulfilled a requirement of good behavior. An example would be a police job. If one of the requirements to be a cop is not only working in a dfwp/drug free work place but no uses of illegal or intoxicating drugs as adult then so be it. There are some police departments that allow 4-16 uses of an illegal drug like pot for applicants and academy candidates. Why should a 21 year old be excused for committing a known crime no matter how minor get the same privileges as another 21 year who used no illegal drugs or the last time they did it was as a 17 year old juvenile. They should be able to allow none if it's known to be a cop in that community is that they don't want previous or recent illegal drug users. Same for any job. In some respects I think we let kids/young adults get too old before we hold them responsible. They think when they decide to turn the switch of adult responsibility on is when life starts. Too many second, third and fourth chances even before something becomes criminal. This is just one possibility but the rewarding of good behavior would be a start.


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## Shalimar (Jun 14, 2015)

No intoxicating drugs at all? Alcohol falls within those parameters, I fear if that were in place, it would be very difficult to find sufficient applicants for law enforcement jobs.


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

> By the way Dame Warrigal "Have you been the victim of any crime"?



Admittedly, I have not but I am still capable of drawing distinctions between levels of harm to society of different crimes.

I have always understood that a principle of what we refer to as British justice is that the punishment for serious crimes is the loss of liberty for a set period of time. Gaol is not meant to be more than that. That is why we have abolished flogging and other forms of physical punishment for prisoners.

Custodial sentences are expensive and where the offender can be dealt with by some other means I believe it is worthwhile exploring the other options. 

I have only known one person who did time. He was an accountant with a gambling problem who was found guilty of defrauding his employer of some thousands of dollars. He served one year in prison which shamed him and his entirely innocent wife and family. It was served at a prison farm rather than a high security prison and it was sufficient to ensure that he never contemplated reoffending. He also received help to deal with his gambling addiction. However, he had to live with the shame of a criminal record for the rest of his life.

I think he was treated appropriately by the justice system, just as I think it appropriate that Ivan Milat, the backpacker serial murderer, will never be released from his maximum security cell. All crimes are not equal and not everyone can be redeemed, but a lot can be.

I am against mandatory sentencing although I approve of guidelines for judges when delivering their judgements. It's easy to get outraged when reading newspaper reports of trials but it is the judge who hears all the evidence.


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## tnthomas (Jun 14, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> I know someone who is a Prison Guard. He said that being too severe and harsh makes prisoners very resentful and that resentment often spills over into violence against both prison guards and other prisoners. I'm not suggesting that prisoners be pampered but I agree that rehabilitation is just as important as punishment.



I work in a state prison and can tell you that the staff are *not* present to punish the inmate, that's the Court's jurisdiction.   Educational programs are available, rehabilitating the inmate for [successful]re-entry to society being the goal.


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm very pleased to hear that, tnthomas.


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## Butterfly (Jun 14, 2015)

Well, here this last week we just had a person picked up for burglary on a motor vehicle.  He had just bonded out three days before from a similar crime.  AND, when he committed the similar crime, he was on probation from committing yet another similar crime.

If they let him bond out again, he'll do it again.  Why in the world can't they just put him in jail and keep him there for a while???


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## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2015)

Has he been convicted yet? If not I would think that the prosecution/police should ask that bail*** be revoked immediately. It sounds to me like they would have a strong case.

*** I'm assuming that being bonded means the same as being out on bail, pending trial.


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## chic (Jun 15, 2015)

Punishment/incarceration have existed for millenia and do not deter crime. Maybe it's time society gets to the root of what causes people to turn to crime in the first place, like poverty, lack of education, negative home environment, physical and psychological abuse, or peer pressure. If we could solve these problems people may not turn to crime at all. I know that presently this is over simplying a serious problem, but I hope someday inroads are made and crime stats begin to dwindle as a result. It's possible.


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## mitchezz (Jun 15, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> I work in a state prison and can tell you that the staff are *not* present to punish the inmate, that's the Court's jurisdiction.   Educational programs are available, rehabilitating the inmate for [successful]re-entry to society being the goal.



I was speaking more of severely restricting priviliges such as tv, music, books etc would cause resentment.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 15, 2015)

Society seems to swing back and forth on this issue.  "Three Strikes and You are Out" was very popular in this country when it looked like the drug culture would do us in until overcrowding caused a look at rehabilitation rather than incarceration being the way to go.  Just a tangent on my part, I know, but I thought that this "horse" had been beaten to death, evidently not so...


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## WhatInThe (Jun 15, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> No intoxicating drugs at all? Alcohol falls within those parameters, I fear if that were in place, it would be very difficult to find sufficient applicants for law enforcement jobs.



Alcohol might be intoxicating but it is legal for starters. If an applicant had a dui I wouldn't take him. Lets face it, most can handle a beer or two better than a couple lines of cocaine or couple joints of pot.

Many jobs that a DFWP test you for alcohol also ask you when your last drink was at the time of testing. So if you come up positive for alcohol and you lie your job chances die which is fair.


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