# Where We Are Today is because of Choices



## Lon (May 12, 2018)

Irrespective of whether we grew up rich or poor or some where in between we are all in our present state of living because of choices that we have made in the past. We made a choice of a spouse, to smoke or not smoke, to drink or not drink, to save/invest/ or to spend, I am very fortunate to have made many more correct decisions during my life time than poor ones. I maintain that even in the present world in which we live, the unemployed, homeless, the incarcerated,poverty stricken all had choices to make and that their present state is possibly due to choices that they made or didn't make.


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## Capt Lightning (May 12, 2018)

I'm inclined to agree that the condition we find ourself in is largely the result of the choices we make.  My mother believed in people being lucky or unlucky, but I argued that luck or lack of it was down to the decisions we make when faced with any particular situation.  Life is full of random and unpredictable events and how we handle them determines our future.


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## Buckeye (May 12, 2018)

Maybe, but some folks had more/better opportunities than others.  So I'm not so quick to cast a shadow on those who are less fortunate.  We have no idea what choices they had.  For example, growing up in America in the 50s was great if you were white, male and heterosexual.  If you weren't all three of these, then you had fewer choices.  

As for the homeless, I gather that about 1/3 of them have mental health issues (is that a choice?), another 1/3 have substance abuse issues (there is a large biological component to substance abuse, so it may or may not be the result of a choice) and the last 1/3 are just temporarily in a bad spot but will recover.


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## helenbacque (May 12, 2018)

Sometimes being in the right place at the right time - or luck - has bearing on the outcome but personal choice is the main factor.  

I believe life is a test.  Winning isn't about the cards we're dealt but how we played the game.


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## Falcon (May 12, 2018)

Never knew the lifetime choices I  made would add up to where I am today, but glad they did.

Financially  comfortable and  physically  healthy.


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## AZ Jim (May 12, 2018)

I absolutely disagree.  None of us are born with the same opportunities.  Each of us are treated different by circumstance.  Do you mean someone struck with terrible misfortune (health or otherwise) got there by "choice".  I say you have been damned lucky Lon.  I am happy for your luck but let's not suggest, as you have, that we fully control our destiny.


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## Keesha (May 12, 2018)

I agree with Hoot and Jim that not everyone has the save opportunities.  
I also agree that life is about learning lessons and we aren’t all here to learn all the same lessons. 
Its not the hand we are dealt as much as how we play the game that matters.
Some people turn lemons into lemonade and others just complain


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## Jackie22 (May 12, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> Maybe, but some folks had more/better opportunities than others.  So I'm not so quick to cast a shadow on those who are less fortunate.  We have no idea what choices they had.  For example, growing up in America in the 50s was great if you were white, male and heterosexual.  If you weren't all three of these, then you had fewer choices.
> 
> As for the homeless, I gather that about 1/3 of them have mental health issues (is that a choice?), another 1/3 have substance abuse issues (there is a large biological component to substance abuse, so it may or may not be the result of a choice) and the last 1/3 are just temporarily in a bad spot but will recover.



I agree with this.


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## Aunt Bea (May 12, 2018)

I'm thankful and a little bit surprised at how my life has turned out but I know how quickly that could all change on the way to the finish line. 

_“Win without boasting. Lose without excuse.”_― Albert Payson Terhune


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## Lon (May 12, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> I absolutely disagree.  None of us are born with the same opportunities.  Each of us are treated different by circumstance.  Do you mean someone struck with terrible misfortune (health or otherwise) got there by "choice".  I say you have been damned lucky Lon.  I am happy for your luck but let's not suggest, as you have, that we fully control our destiny.



Sorry Jim---Here again. I disagree. For example: I am a Prostate Cancer Survivor and a Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma Survivor. The big choices that I had to make re: each disease had a determining factor on where I am today.


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## C'est Moi (May 12, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> I absolutely disagree.  None of us are born with the same opportunities.  Each of us are treated different by circumstance.  Do you mean someone struck with terrible misfortune (health or otherwise) got there by "choice".  I say you have been damned lucky Lon.  I am happy for your luck but let's not suggest, as you have, that we fully control our destiny.



^^  This.


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## AZ Jim (May 12, 2018)

Lon said:


> Sorry Jim---Here again. I disagree. For example: I am a Prostate Cancer Survivor and a Non Hodgkin's Lymphoma Survivor. The big choices that I had to make re: each disease had a determining factor on where I am today.


You just don't get it Lon.  Not everyone gets the same cards in this game of life.  I could go into great detail about how things might have gone differently for you and things gone different but I shall not.  But just consider all the many things that can boost some of us and destroy others.  Fortune is NOT all choice...


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## hollydolly (May 12, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> You just don't get it Lon.  Not everyone gets the same cards in this game of life.  I could go into great detail about how things might have gone differently for you and things gone different but I shall not.  But just consider all the many things that can boost some of us and destroy others.  Fortune is NOT all choice...



I absolutely agree!!!


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## Capt Lightning (May 12, 2018)

I think Keesha is correct - It's not the cards we are dealt, but the way we play them.  As I said, life is full of random and unpredictable events.  It's how we respond to those events that matters.


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## ProsperosDaughter (May 12, 2018)

hoot n annie said:


> maybe, but some folks had more/better opportunities than others.  So i'm not so quick to cast a shadow on those who are less fortunate.  We have no idea what choices they had.  For example, growing up in america in the 50s was great if you were white, male and heterosexual.  If you weren't all three of these, then you had fewer choices.
> 
> As for the homeless, i gather that about 1/3 of them have mental health issues (is that a choice?), another 1/3 have substance abuse issues (there is a large biological component to substance abuse, so it may or may not be the result of a choice) and the last 1/3 are just temporarily in a bad spot but will recover.



i agree


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## Shalimar (May 12, 2018)

Lon said:


> Irrespective of whether we grew up rich or poor or some where in between we are all in our present state of living because of choices that we have made in the past. We made a choice of a spouse, to smoke or not smoke, to drink or not drink, to save/invest/ or to spend, I am very fortunate to have made many more correct decisions during my life time than poor ones. I maintain that even in the present world in which we live, the unemployed, homeless, the incarcerated,poverty stricken all had choices to make and that their present state is possibly due to choices that they made or didn't make.



My goodness. What about children who were abused sexually, physically, and/or emotionally for years? That level of trauma has life long effects. Even counselling has limits.  Many damaged children turn to substance abuse in their adult years as an attempt to cope with unimaginable pain, as do the mentally ill, vets suffering from PTSD. Often this can lead to homelessness, 

incarceration, etc. Not all the homeless, vets, children, mentally ill etc, are substance abusers, some have no place to go. Also, the intellectually and physically challenged have stumbling blocks as well. Sometimes they fall through the cracks, I have a good friend, IQ 160+, sixteen years of university. He is on disability because his mental illness is too severe for him to hold a job. Otherwise, he would be a CEO of a fortune fIve hundred company. Many damaged individuals are house bound, not drugged out or drunk, just unable to cope with the outside world. 

 I applaud the fact that your life permitted you to make the right choices, and that you had the skills, opportunities, and stability to achieve the American Dream. Not everyone is as fortunate. Making good choices is often predicated on the ability to do so, rather than a conscious choice to live a marginal and broken life.


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## Lon (May 12, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> My goodness. What about children who were abused sexually, physically, and/or emotionally for years? That level of trauma has life long effects. Even counselling has limits.  Many damaged children turn to substance abuse in their adult years as an attempt to cope with unimaginable pain, as do the mentally ill, vets suffering from PTSD. Often this can lead to homelessness,
> 
> incarceration, etc. Not all the homeless, vets, children, mentally ill etc, are substance abusers, some have no place to go. Also, the intellectually and physically challenged have stumbling blocks as well. Sometimes they fall through the cracks, I have a good friend, IQ 160+, sixteen years of university. He is on disability because his mental illness is too severe for him to hold a job. Otherwise, he would be a CEO of a fortune fIve hundred company. Many damaged individuals are house bound, not drugged out or drunk, just unable to cope with the outside world.
> 
> I applaud the fact that your life permitted you to make the right choices, and that you had the skills, opportunities, and stability to achieve the American Dream. Not everyone is as fortunate. Making good choices is often predicated on the ability to do so, rather than a conscious choice to live a marginal and broken life.




Shali says--My goodness. What about children who were abused sexually, physically, and/or emotionally for years? That level of trauma has life long effects. ​They still must go on and make choices for the rest of their lives Their abuse will not take that away.


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## Shalimar (May 12, 2018)

Lon said:


> Shali says--My goodness. What about children who were abused sexually, physically, and/or emotionally for years? That level of trauma has life long effects. ​They still must go on and make choices for the rest of their lives Their abuse will not take that away.


Agreed, Lon. However, my point is, such heavily scarred minds are compromised. It can be  difficult, or impossible,  to make the best choices under those conditions.


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## helenbacque (May 12, 2018)

In reading this thread, Stephen Hawking comes to mind.


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## Don M. (May 12, 2018)

For me, success has been the ability to NOT make the same mistakes...TWICE.


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## Buckeye (May 12, 2018)

Don M. said:


> For me, success has been the ability to NOT make the same mistakes...TWICE.



lol - not me!  I make 'em 2 or 3 times just to be sure I was doing the wrong thing.......


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## SeaBreeze (May 12, 2018)

Lon said:


> Irrespective of whether we grew up rich or poor or some where in between we are all in our present state of living because of choices that we have made in the past.



I think that's true to a certain degree.  If you choose to drink or gamble out of control, bounce from job to job all your life, or don't work at all, throw your earnings out the window instead of putting some away into savings, etc., those negative choice will come back to bite you in the end. 

 If you work, save, invest wisely, and manage the money you do have in a responsible way, then you'll be better off.  But, a poor person for example, may not have all the opportunities afforded to someone who is born into a rich family.   Also, in my opinion, not only our choices molded our present state of living, there are outside factors that may be out of our control, that dictate how well or how poorly our current state is.

  I'm lucky to have shared my life with a responsible man who joined me in saving and preparing for our present life, and not being negatively affected by outside influences.  We didn't have any tragedies, destruction of property, bad health expenses, etc. to set us back....but all that may have happened through no choice of our own.  We are neither rich or poor.


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## Shalimar (May 12, 2018)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think that's true to a certain degree.  If you choose to drink or gamble out of control, bounce from job to job all your life, or don't work at all, throw your earnings out the window instead of putting some away into savings, etc., those negative choice will come back to bite you in the end.
> 
> If you work, save, invest wisely, and manage the money you do have in a responsible way, then you'll be better off.  But, a poor person for example, may not have all the opportunities afforded to someone who is born into a rich family.   Also, in my opinion, not only our choices molded our present state of living, there are outside factors that may be out of our control, that dictate how well or how poorly our current state is.
> 
> I'm lucky to have shared my life with a responsible man who joined me in saving and preparing for our present life, and not being negatively affected by outside influences.  We didn't have any tragedies, destruction of property, bad health expenses, etc. to set us back....but all that may have happened through no choice of our own.  We are neither rich or poor.


Excellent post.


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## Shalimar (May 12, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> lol - not me!  I make 'em 2 or 3 times just to be sure I was doing the wrong thing.......


I hear you! Most of the important lessons I have learned skiing on my nose in the gravel.


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## jujube (May 12, 2018)

I learned one of my best lessons after drinking several sloe gin fizzes one night in college:  DON'T DRINK SLOE GIN FIZZES.


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## AZ Jim (May 12, 2018)

jujube said:


> I learned one of my best lessons after drinking several sloe gin fizzes one night in college:  DON'T DRINK SLOE GIN FIZZES.


OR Tequila sunrises.


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## Ruthanne (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> Irrespective of whether we grew up rich or poor or some where in between we are all in our present state of living because of choices that we have made in the past. We made a choice of a spouse, to smoke or not smoke, to drink or not drink, to save/invest/ or to spend, I am very fortunate to have made many more correct decisions during my life time than poor ones. I maintain that even in the present world in which we live, the unemployed, homeless, the incarcerated,poverty stricken all had choices to make and that their present state is possibly due to choices that they made or didn't make.


I disagree somewhat.  People who acquire many disabilities didn't have a choice much of the time.


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## Lon (May 13, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> You just don't get it Lon.  Not everyone gets the same cards in this game of life.  I could go into great detail about how things might have gone differently for you and things gone different but I shall not.  But just consider all the many things that can boost some of us and destroy others.  Fortune is NOT all choice...



What I do get friend Jim is your willingness to make excuses for people.


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## Shalimar (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> What I do get friend Jim is your willingness to make excuses for people.


I think that sometimes when a person has not experienced disability or extreme trauma, it can be difficult to comprehend the deleterious long term effects. To label such as excuses imho is inaccurate.


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## hollydolly (May 13, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I think that sometimes when a person has not experienced disability or extreme trauma, it can be difficult to comprehend the deleterious long term effects. To label such as excuses imho is inaccurate.




Couldn't agree more!!


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## Lon (May 13, 2018)

hollydolly said:


> Couldn't agree more!!




How do we account then for the many people that have experienced extreme trauma and or disability and beat what could have been deleterious effects? Is it just possible that they made some individual right choices?


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## jujube (May 13, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> OR Tequila sunrises.



But when you're "worshiping the porcelain God" (and note that I say WHEN and not IF.....it's a given there will be a WHEN...) at 2:00 a.m., sloe gin fizzes are so much more spectacular...


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## Ruthanne (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> How do we account then for the many people that have experienced extreme trauma and or disability and beat what could have been deleterious effects? Is it just possible that they made some individual right choices?


Trauma is from others and not the self thus no choice in the matter.


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## Lethe200 (May 13, 2018)

My mother was an alcoholic. That's a choice she made.

My sister died of ovarian cancer at age 38. That's not a choice.


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## Lon (May 13, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> Trauma is from others and not the self thus no choice in the matter.



The source of the trauma makes no difference.


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## C'est Moi (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> The source of the trauma makes no difference.



How absurd.   Many times in life things happen to people, both good and bad, that are entirely beyond their control.   No matter how much you plan or how hard you work, you can't avoid fate.   A tragic accident, a devastating illness, or a stock market dump can change a person's life forever.


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## Shalimar (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> The source of the trauma makes no difference.


That is simply not true.


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## Ruthanne (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> The source of the trauma makes no difference.


Yes it does!


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## Shalimar (May 13, 2018)

It is heartrending enough to have one’s life shattered by events beyond one’s control without the spectre of being judged weak, or lacking in good judgement because the severity of the situation curtails one’s choices. No one should feel shamed by such, sadly, many do. Some of them end up in my office, far more end up dead. Often, the greatest obstacle  lies not within  the damaged person, but with those who seek only to condemn rather than understand. Judgement kills.


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## treeguy64 (May 13, 2018)

Lon, I don't like to get into name calling, but you really tempt me.  I believe you fit, to a t, the expression, "There are none so blind as them who will not see."  That's all I'll write, here.


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## Keesha (May 13, 2018)

Lon, 
I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way at all but in this particular topic, I think your stance is far too narrow. 

Sure you are entitled to your opinion but in my opinion you are over simplifying trauma. Trauma is  far more complex than you are indicating. 


Ultimately how we feel about trauma is our choice but there’s also a ‘time’ factor to consider along with many other factors. 


If you were suddenly attacked and and were in a coma and became permanently paralyzed, would you be upset? 


Yes you have a choice as to how you feel about this but , for most people, it takes stages of recovery to get there. 


Not everyone has the same opportunities so how do we compare apples to oranges?


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## Keesha (May 13, 2018)

Lon said:


> The source of the trauma makes no difference.



THIS ^^^^
The source of trauma makes a HUGE difference.


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## Kitties (May 13, 2018)

It's that old saying if you could go back again and do things differently. But not everyone is given a good and stable base in life. An 18 year old who grew up in an abusive house may as well be a newborn at that age. They have to go and start figuring it all out from that time forward and may be way behind everyone else. If they can survive at all.

A bit of empathy goes a long way.


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## Shalimar (May 13, 2018)

Kitties said:


> It's that old saying if you could go back again and do things differently. But not everyone is given a good and stable base in life. An 18 year old who grew up in an abusive house may as well be a newborn at that age. They have to go and start figuring it all out from that time forward and may be way behind everyone else. If they can survive at all.
> 
> A bit of empathy goes a long way.


Qft.


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## Shalimar (May 13, 2018)

Kitties said:


> It's that old saying if you could go back again and do things differently. But not everyone is given a good and stable base in life. An 18 year old who grew up in an abusive house may as well be a newborn at that age. They have to go and start figuring it all out from that time forward and may be way behind everyone else. If they can survive at all.
> 
> A bit of empathy goes a long way.


Sometimes all we learn from our parents is who not to be.


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## Don M. (May 14, 2018)

I tend to agree....to a minor degree....with Lon, and his assumption that many Seniors are in financial duress due to poor financial decisions they made during their working years.  However, there is, IMO, an even larger reason for Seniors living with little financial security....which has NOT been mentioned in this discussion.  That reason is DIVORCE.  Unless both spouses are lucky enough to have good paying jobs when they decide to divorce, they quickly find that they are both taking a huge "pay cut" by divorcing.  Then, if there are children involved, the child support funding, and the need to maintain two households, etc., quickly puts both parties into a "minimum wage" situation....with little hope for building up any reserves for their retirement years.  

Marriage, and the ability to remain so, is often the most stressful experience in most peoples lives.  Two people cannot live together peacefully, for decades, without having some "eruptions".  Choosing a good "life mate", and being able to work through the issues that develop, over the years, is becoming increasingly uncommon.  Present statistics indicate that over 40% of today's marriages end in divorce, and I would submit that many of those people are headed for a lifetime of financial problems.


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## Kitties (May 14, 2018)

Don M, the thought of divorce also came to my mind but I didn't post it. I also think some people will forget how lucky they are. I posted this on another senior forum that my own mother snickered that there were people living in their nice adult mobile community on social security only. She seemed to forget, even with her own background, that her income was less than 600 dollars a month. Their comfortable retirement was all from my stepfather's social security and county pension. 

I also think people forget that their lives go on with services provided by people who make low wages and work at menial jobs. For example there are people at Lon's nice assisted living who clean and do the dishes. Their services help make his life what it is. Are they lesser people?


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## Lon (May 14, 2018)

Kitties said:


> Don M, the thought of divorce also came to my mind but I didn't post it. I also think some people will forget how lucky they are. I posted this on another senior forum that my own mother snickered that there were people living in their nice adult mobile community on social security only. She seemed to forget, even with her own background, that her income was less than 600 dollars a month. Their comfortable retirement was all from my stepfather's social security and county pension.
> 
> I also think people forget that their lives go on with services provided by people who make low wages and work at menial jobs. For example there are people at Lon's nice assisted living who clean and do the dishes. Their services help make his life what it is. Are they lesser people?



Of course they are not lesser people but I know for a fact what staff and workers at my facility earn and it's much more than minimum wage nor is it menial work.  Regardless, their working here is by CHOICE.


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## Kitties (May 14, 2018)

Sorry Lon as some have pointed out, you just will not get it. There is no use trying to discuss further.


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## CarolfromTX (May 14, 2018)

On the last day of school, (I was a teacher) I used to give my kids a pep talk -- the choices you make determine the life you lead. Mostly I wanted them to do the right thing, don't smoke, don't have kids too young, and acquire a skill so they could get a good paying job. I always emphasized that a skill didn't always mean a college degree. if you get all the truly important things right, then it's easier to weather the storms of life. I also told them that in life the playing field wasn't ever level, but hard work can go a long way. 

As for the Hubs and myself, we saved for our retirement since we were 25. I give all the credit to him for that. We paid attention in school, showed up on time, worked hard, lived within our income, and stayed married. Neither of us were born to privilege, not even close. Were we just lucky? A little. But we also made a long series of good decisions.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 19, 2018)

Some yes...others not at all. Some people did everything right but fell on hard times due to unexpected job loss, chronic medical issues that insurance stopped paying for (either themselves or their children). Some people work three jobs but still can't make it in this expensive environment. I read about a homeless couple in my state who lived with several others in a tent city that the city was getting ready to demolish so the people would have to move on. They both had high paying careers and in fact had become millionaires. I believe they were self employed so I imagine either they were under insured or their insurance dropped them when her husband had a catastrophic medical issue. Another man I read about was also a millionaire...forgot what happened...he wound up living with his father. Some people had been living the American dream. Good jobs, nice cars, beautiful homes and along comes a natural disaster which wipes them out. In the case here in N.J. several homeowners are still not back in their homes 5-1/2 years after Superstorm Sandy and the money promised to them by insurance companies and the Gov. Christie has not been forthcoming. So I agree with what others have said about it not always being a case of the choices we make.


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