# Ghislaine Maxwell found guilty of supplying girls for financier Jeffrey Epstein



## Bretrick (Dec 29, 2021)

She was convicted of conspiracy to entice a minor to travel to engage in secs (my word) acts, conspiracy to transport a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, conspiracy to commit illegal secs trafficking of minors and secs trafficking of minors, the last of which carries a statutory maximum of 40 years in prison.


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## hollydolly (Dec 29, 2021)

Bretrick said:


> She was convicted of conspiracy to entice a minor to travel to engage in secs (my word) acts, conspiracy to transport a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, conspiracy to commit illegal secs trafficking of minors and secs trafficking of minors, the last of which carries a statutory maximum of 40 years in prison.


..in our media it states she's facing up to 60 years...

_Ghislaine Maxwell has been found guilty of sex trafficking and other charges. After six days of deliberation, a jury of six men and six women found the British socialite guilty on five of six counts - all except enticing an individual under the age of 17 to travel to with intent to engage in illegal sex acts. She faces a maximum sentence of 60 years in prison. It was a sensational trial filled with tearful testimony, a trove of never-before-seen photos submitted into evidence, and shocking claims that the British socialite was a 'sophisticated predator'. From the beginning of the trial that kicked off on November 29, Maxwell remained relaxed and confident, giving hugs to her lawyers or waving to her sister Isabel in the public gallery. She wore a series of turtleneck sweaters and was noticeably tactile with her attorneys, often putting her arm around them in a gesture they reciprocated. Maxwell barely reacted when her accusers took the stand to testify of the horrific abuse at the hands of her and Jeffrey Epstein

Maxwell did not appear to react to the verdict and after they were read out by Judge Alison Nathan she calmly opened a bottle of water and poured herself a glass.





_


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## mellowyellow (Dec 29, 2021)

Great news, now we need to nail Randy Andy.


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## Pepper (Dec 29, 2021)

Why the hell did she come to this country in the first place?  I mean when she was arrested in New Hampshire.  Never did understand this.


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## Bretrick (Dec 29, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ..in our media it states she's facing up to 60 years...
> 
> _Ghislaine Maxwell has been found guilty of sex trafficking and other charges. After six days of deliberation, a jury of six men and six women found the British socialite guilty on five of six counts - all except enticing an individual under the age of 17 to travel to with intent to engage in illegal sex acts. She faces a maximum sentence of 60 years in prison. It was a sensational trial filled with tearful testimony, a trove of never-before-seen photos submitted into evidence, and shocking claims that the British socialite was a 'sophisticated predator'. From the beginning of the trial that kicked off on November 29, Maxwell remained relaxed and confident, giving hugs to her lawyers or waving to her sister Isabel in the public gallery. She wore a series of turtleneck sweaters and was noticeably tactile with her attorneys, often putting her arm around them in a gesture they reciprocated. Maxwell barely reacted when her accusers took the stand to testify of the horrific abuse at the hands of her and Jeffrey Epstein_


secs trafficking of minors, this charge alone carries a statutory maximum of 40 years in prison.


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## oldpeculier (Dec 29, 2021)

A legal pundit was just commenting that it's like convicting the get away driver but not the bank robbers.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm shocked!

Sounds like the legal system worked, at least this once.  However it ain't over yet, lots of appeals and deals to come.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 29, 2021)

oldpeculier said:


> A legal pundit was just commenting that it's like convicting the get away driver but not the bank robbers.


Not as satisfying as a conviction of what's his name would have been.  However sounds like she was a lot more than the get away driver...


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## oldpeculier (Dec 29, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Not as satisfying as a conviction of what's his name would have been.  However sounds like she was a lot more than the get away driver...


Agree.


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## horseless carriage (Dec 29, 2021)

Was it murder? Suicide? Or just an accident? Almost 30 years before Jeffrey Epstein’s demise, Ghislaine Maxwell was caught up in another shocking and scandal-ridden mystery. 
At one time, everyone knew where to find Ghislaine Maxwell. The former aide-de-camp of the disgraced, now deceased, billionaire Jeffrey Epstein was a fixture in Manhattan’s most fashionable salons. With an impressive list of contacts, including Prince Andrew and Chelsea Clinton, she was a regular at fundraisers, book launches and society weddings.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...well-and-how-it-shaped-his-daughter-ghislaine


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## Alligatorob (Dec 29, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Was it murder? Suicide? Or just an accident?


Interesting question, but one we will likely never have a satisfying answer to.  I tend to believe it was suicide, but get the point, he could have hurt a lot of powerful people.  Guess another one for the conspiracy theorists to make hay over.


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## terry123 (Dec 29, 2021)

oldpeculier said:


> Agree.


Me too!


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## WhatInThe (Dec 29, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Not as satisfying as a conviction of what's his name would have been.  However sounds like she was a lot more than the get away driver...


Sounds like an empowered employee in Epstein's criminal organization.

I too wonder if she has more information to trade for a lighter sentence. One thing that I haven't seen much on other the Epstein was a fund manager is information on his finances. Did they follow the money in all directions.


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## hawkdon (Dec 29, 2021)

Kharma is a      bbbbbb   for her!!! He had all his fun and
"left" her holding the bag!!!!!


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## Irwin (Dec 29, 2021)

Every time I see her picture, I feel like I should wash my hands or something. It's like the feeling you get when you turn over a rock and see all the bugs and worms that were under it.


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## Jeni (Dec 29, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Sounds like an empowered employee in Epstein's criminal organization.
> 
> I too wonder if she has more information to trade for a lighter sentence. One thing that I haven't seen much on other the Epstein was a fund manager is information on his finances. Did they follow the money in all directions.


there is far more information someone had to have uncovered in this whole debacle.  Why have some of the famous who hung around this group been condemned and others people seem to ignore......

 I hope this woman does spill all names after all what does she have to lose at this point unless she mysteriously commits suicide wink wink. I would think these victims would know some names of those men  who were there .... but they seem quiet on that. 

the list will include famous people that should be facing the music but the public has seemed to give them a pass.


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## CarolfromTX (Dec 29, 2021)

Good. Hope she rots behind bars. Maybe she could commit “suicide” like Epstein.


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## dseag2 (Dec 29, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Good. Hope she rots behind bars. Maybe she could commit “suicide” like Epstein.


Harsh, but I agree.  What she subjected these young girls to will no doubt stay with them for the rest of their lives.


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## hollydolly (Dec 29, 2021)

hawkdon said:


> Kharma is a      bbbbbb   for her!!! He had all his fun and
> "left" her holding the bag!!!!!


not true... she was  often having sex _with_ him in front of these young girls...


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## hollydolly (Dec 29, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Every time I see her picture, I feel like I should wash my hands or something. It's like the feeling you get when you turn over a rock and see all the bugs and worms that were under it.


the whole family are like that especially and including the late scumbag of a father ( who also died mysteriously before he had to stand trial )   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell


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## hollydolly (Dec 29, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Good. Hope she rots behind bars. Maybe she could commit “suicide” like Epstein.


I don't believe that will ever happen. She's a complete narcissist . In court it was stated she was relaxed throughout the whole procedure, while  physically and literally cuddling up to her defence team, and waving to her family in the court... and looked nonchalant when her accusers took the stand to describe their horrifying experiences


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## mellowyellow (Dec 30, 2021)

Ghislaine Maxwell and Kevin Spacey sitting on thrones belonging to Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip at Buckingham Palace during a visit with Bill Clinton in 2002.


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## Alice November (Dec 30, 2021)

She is completely disgusting. I hope they throw the book at her or worse.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 30, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> she was often having sex _with_ him in front of these young girls


A detail I could have happily gone through life without knowing...


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 30, 2021)

Epstein:  Suicide or murder?  I'm not into conspiracy theories but this one is pretty fishy.


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## rgp (Dec 30, 2021)

If she is guilty ? ....... which apparently the jury believed, then I suppose she will meet her fate. 

But ..... What about all the celebrities and politicians said to have visited the island / flew on the plane ? Shouldn't they too face some sort of prosecution ?

And no, I do not think Epstein committed suicide. IMO he was slienced.


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## Lewkat (Dec 30, 2021)

Now, she will probably name names to get her sentence reduced.


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## timoc (Dec 30, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Now, she will probably name names to get her sentence reduced.


A rat, ratting on all the other rats. I can't wait to see that outcome, but I'll bet more than a few so called celebrities are starting to get nervous.


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## hollydolly (Dec 30, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Now, she will probably name names to get her sentence reduced.


this is what the press are saying..however..I think she's now caught between a rock and a hard place..  if she grasses on others , someone will arrange for her to go the way of her boyfriend  when she gets out or even before.. or conversely   she doesn't name anyone and relies on her very expensive lawyers to get her the minimum time....

 I think she'll wait to see what her sentence will be.. if she gets less than 10 years, she'll be out in 4 or 5.. and she won't name anyone... if she gets the full 9 yards.. then she may agree to co-operate at her first appeal ..

..all that said... if these particular celebrities, royals ( from several countries).. and politicians haven't been named during Maxwells' trial by the _victims_.. then it would be very difficult for the prosecution to prove that these others were involved in any way, so I can't imagine that she will get any reduction for naming others...it also means that if she doesn't.. it wil suit her , because she can continue to stay in that secret paedophile, circle.. when she is released....because for sure, she's going to be rotten meat by any of the upper social echelon to which she's been used to being a part of all of her life..


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## rgp (Dec 30, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Now, she will probably name names to get her sentence reduced.




Perhaps, *If* ......... she too isn't silenced !


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## Alligatorob (Dec 30, 2021)

rgp said:


> What about all the celebrities and politicians said to have visited the island / flew on the plane ? Shouldn't they too face some sort of prosecution ?


If they did anything illegal certainly.  But I would not hold my breath on that one...


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## Alligatorob (Dec 30, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Now, she will probably name names to get her sentence reduced.


I hope so, the name names part anyway.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 30, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ..in our media it states she's facing up to 60 years...
> 
> _Ghislaine Maxwell has been found guilty of sex trafficking and other charges. After six days of deliberation, a jury of six men and six women found the British socialite guilty on five of six counts - all except enticing an individual under the age of 17 to travel to with intent to engage in illegal sex acts. She faces a maximum sentence of 60 years in prison. It was a sensational trial filled with tearful testimony, a trove of never-before-seen photos submitted into evidence, and shocking claims that the British socialite was a 'sophisticated predator'. From the beginning of the trial that kicked off on November 29, Maxwell remained relaxed and confident, giving hugs to her lawyers or waving to her sister Isabel in the public gallery. She wore a series of turtleneck sweaters and was noticeably tactile with her attorneys, often putting her arm around them in a gesture they reciprocated. Maxwell barely reacted when her accusers took the stand to testify of the horrific abuse at the hands of her and Jeffrey Epstein
> 
> ...


I don't understand why she was found not guilty of Count 2. Anyway...that she was found guilty on the other charges....


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 30, 2021)

The verdict does lend credibility to claims of underage ****** trafficking, and being trafficked as a known minor.


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## hollydolly (Dec 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I don't understand why she was found not guilty of Count 2. Anyway...that she was found guilty on the other charges....
> 
> View attachment 201385


No me neither..it's a pity the cameras weren't permitted access to the court... hopefully tho' the media will explain all...


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## Alligatorob (Dec 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I don't understand why she was found not guilty of Count 2


I don't either, but I suspect the jury did not believe sufficient evidence was presented in that one case.  

Actually I think it gives the other guilty verdicts more credibility.  It appears the jury held the prosecution to a high standard... and still found her guilty of 5 charges.


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## ohioboy (Dec 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I don't understand why she was found not guilty of Count 2. Anyway...that she was found guilty on the other charges....
> 
> View attachment 201385


Counts 2 and 4 are concerning the complainant known as Jane _only_. Count 2 concerns the criminal element of Enticing, not guilty. Count 4 concerns the criminal element  of Transportation, guilty. *Every* element of an offense must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You notice each charge concerns only conduct of Maxwell between 1994-1997. Let us assume that Count could not be proven within that time frame, but after or before!! That could be 1 reason of aquittal? Others being the element itself was not proven!


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## Jeni (Dec 30, 2021)

I saw a story on this the women was hidden and voice altered but the whole thing had a few red flags... think of these girls 14-17 years of age

The girl said she was approached by Ms Maxwell in a car that pulled over on side of road....... guess there was a pitch as if she was being recruited for a modeling job.... promising big money
Girl was invited to some party and by end of evening was asked to massage Epstein in his underwear... left with $300 or so ...she was re-invited for the next weekend and asked to bring her sister... 
Then the next part of the "modeling ruse' they flew to a private island for long weekends .....
 where were parents who would let girls go into this un-escorted if they too bought the modeling bit. 

Maybe i am just more skeptical but i see red flags all over this as in many many kids in trouble situations.


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## hollydolly (Dec 31, 2021)

Snippet...from this mornings' media..

_“Whereas Epstein brought the cash, Maxwell brought the contacts.


“She opened up a world to her then-lover he could only have dreamt of.


“Epstein was socially awkward. Some say inept. He didn’t mix well.


“But with Maxwell by his side, she gave him cover and credibility with the rich and famous.


“He was accepted into their world not because of money but because of her.


“She provided most of the numbers in their book.

“Prosecutors in the US have made countless mistakes before where Maxwell and Epstein are concerned. Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI, has vowed that those who committed a crime with them will not escape justice under his watch.”


During Maxwell’s four-week trial in New York, the book including the names and addresses of nearly 2,000 world leaders, sportsmen, royalty, celebrities and alleged victims remained secret.


The contacts contained within it allowed Maxwell and Epstein to flourish in the world’s most elite circles.


For decades, important, influential, serious people attended their dinner parties, rode his private ‘Lolita Express’ jet, and furthered the fiction they were New York’s power couple.


During her trial, however, the disgraced socialite’s defence attorneys agreed with prosecutors not to release the 97-page directory to the public.


But it was made available in a previous civil case involving Andrew’s rape accuser Virginia Giuffre. The book was filled with contact details of Maxwell and Epstein’s famous friends, including the Duke and former U.S. leader Bill Clinton and Donald Trump but was only mentioned sporadically during her sex-trafficking trial._
*The so-called little black book contained 301 Brits listing more than 1,000 numbers and dozens of email addresses between them.*


*They included countless celebrities including Mick Jagger, Simon Le Bon, Phil Collins, the late Sir David Frost, Richard Branson, Naomi Campbell, Tamara Beckwith, Jonathan Dimbleby, Lloyd Grossman and numerous lords and ladies.*


_*Ex-British Prime Minister Tony Blair is recorded once, while his former cabinet minister Lord Peter Mandelson has ten numbers, including one marked ‘direct line’, one marked ‘home’ and one marked ‘country home’.


Princess Diana’s brother, Charles Spencer, also features.*_


There are 16 separate phone numbers for Prince Andrew, including a mobile phone number, one marked Palace ex-directory, one for Balmoral, the Queen’s private retreat in Scotland where the Prince invited Epstein, and one marked Sand, which appears to be Sandringham, the other royal retreat where he spent time.


Details of the book came out in court documents through litigation from Virginia Giuffre against Maxwell during their civil libel case although it had been published in the media prior to that.


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## Jeni (Dec 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Snippet...from this mornings' media..
> 
> _“Whereas Epstein brought the cash, Maxwell brought the contacts.
> 
> ...


There are many elites and famous  and i think this should be released ... 
It was mentioned as one of the reasons Melinda Gates.... used in her divorce from Bill Gates

people should Know just how sick some of these people are.... and they do not even blink an eye because they know money and the elite club will protect their own.


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Jeni said:


> I saw a story on this the women was hidden and voice altered but the whole thing had a few red flags... think of these girls 14-17 years of age
> 
> The girl said she was approached by Ms Maxwell in a car that pulled over on side of road....... guess there was a pitch as if she was being recruited for a modeling job.... promising big money
> Girl was invited to some party and by end of evening was asked to massage Epstein in his underwear... left with $300 or so ...she was re-invited for the next weekend and asked to bring her sister...
> ...




   Agree here .


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Jeni said:


> There are many elites and famous  and i think this should be released ...
> It was mentioned as one of the reasons Melinda Gates.... used in her divorce from Bill Gates
> 
> people should Know just how sick some of these people are.... and they do not even blink an eye because they know money and the elite club will protect their own.



  Agree here as well.


fuzzybuddy said:


> The verdict does lend credibility to claims of underage ****** trafficking, and being trafficked as a known minor.




 Not sure I follow you here ?


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## WhatInThe (Dec 31, 2021)

The day after the Maxwell verdict it was announced it was decided that the jail guards that were supposedly guarding a high profile suicidal prisoner Jeffery Epstein who was eventually found dead will not face federal charges.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/30/us/jeffrey-epstein-officers-dismissed-charges/index.html

Just a coincidence and random chance...

Keep in mind this was announced during a holiday week when most don't care about following the news.  I guess they have to make sure they're available to 'guard' Maxwell.


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## Vida May (Dec 31, 2021)

I am shocked!  I thought we were glad to get away from Puritanism?  I remember growing up with strict rules and I accepted those rules were made so we could protect ourselves.  Then we threw away all the rules and had "****** freedom".  That made life very confusing and now we are prosecuting people?! Excuse me, what happened to the rules and personal responsibility?


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Vida May said:


> I am shocked!  I thought we were glad to get away from Puritanism?  I remember growing up with strict rules and I accepted those rules were made so we could protect ourselves.  Then we threw away all the rules and had "****** freedom".  That made life very confusing and now we are prosecuting people?! Excuse me, what happened to the rules and personal responsibility?




 I agree ........... and wow I hate to say this but. Every photo & video clip that I saw of the "victims" back in the day, appear to be smiling / laughing / posing etc .......... I have to wonder, just how forced coerced were they ?

Is there money involved ? As in civil lawsuits , fortified by the legal outcome ? ....... Follow the money.


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## Devi (Dec 31, 2021)

Vida May said:


> I am shocked!  I thought we were glad to get away from Puritanism?  I remember growing up with strict rules and I accepted those rules were made so we could protect ourselves.  Then we threw away all the rules and had "****** freedom".  That made life very confusing and now we are prosecuting people?! Excuse me, what happened to the rules and personal responsibility?


I think the issue was not that there was sex at all, but that the girls were underage.


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## Vida May (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> I agree ........... and wow I hate to say this but. Every photo & video clip that I saw of the "victims" back in the day, appear to be smiling / laughing / posing etc .......... I have to wonder, just how forced coerced were they ?
> 
> Is there money involved ? As in civil lawsuits , fortified by the legal outcome ? ....... Follow the money.


 Thank you.  I was bracing myself for an attack because of what I said, but it burns my soul that these girls were out for a good time and enjoyed the ride, and now they will get rich by claiming to be victims.  

More concerning is the witch hunt we are on and our enjoyment of this. I am not saying the sexism of Mash, Gomer Pyle, the Carol Burnett show are right, but at least then we laughed about it, and we were not burning with anger and wanting to get revenge on people.  

Let me be clear.  I did not like the unwanted advances and the work problems.  I am just saying I have concerns about what is happening now and how this will turn out.


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## Vida May (Dec 31, 2021)

Devi said:


> I think the issue was not that there was sex at all, but that the girls were underage.


I think their ages are only a legal technicality.  Back in the day it was said good girls didn't do it and bad girls did.  The girls were old enough to understand that concept and they chose to do it.


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## Pepper (Dec 31, 2021)

Should we ban songs like Sweet Little Sixteen; 16 Candles; You're 16, You're beautiful, and you're MINE; and a lyric like Well, she was just seventeen; you know what I mean


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## hollydolly (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Should we ban songs like Sweet Little Sixteen; 16 Candles; You're 16, You're beautiful, and you're MINE; and a lyric like Well, she was just seventeen; you know what I mean


16 is a legal age , some of these girls were just 14 years old....


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## Pepper (Dec 31, 2021)

14 is too young.  What about those insane parents who let their little boys have pajama parties with Michael Jackson?  Think these girls had similar parenting.


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> 16 is a legal age , some of these girls were just 14 years old....



 Were they upfront about their ages @ the time ?

 When I was 26 I took a young [19yr/old] woman/girl on a date ......... a movie & drinks after. The drinks, we had in a bar .......... she had a Vodka Gimllet , I had a beer.

Found out later ........ she was only 16 ...... lived next door to a guy I worked with.


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## Vida May (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Should we ban songs like Sweet Little Sixteen; 16 Candles; You're 16, You're beautiful, and you're MINE; and a lyric like Well, she was just seventeen; you know what I mean


 Ah, Thank you!  This is a cultural matter and our culture got very loose and the media did promote what we have made illegal.  And I wonder how much of what is happening now is wanting revenge on rich people?  

What is going on in our own hearts?  Jesus said let the person who has not sinned throw the first stone, and what I see is an excited mob with pockets full of stones, ready to throw them.  

For me, this is all about culture.  I wish all men and women were loving and committed to being better people and family values.  That is not what our culture is promoting.


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## hollydolly (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> Were they upfront about their ages @ the time ?
> 
> When I was 26 I took a young [19yr/old] woman/girl on a date ......... a movie & drinks after. The drinks, we had in a bar .......... she had a Vodka Gimllet , I had a beer.
> 
> Found out later ........ she was only 16 ...... lived next door to a guy I worked with.


I'll say it again.. 16 in many places is a legal consenting age...14 is not!!


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Vida May said:


> Ah, Thank you!  This is a cultural matter and our culture got very loose and the media did promote what we have made illegal.  And I wonder how much of what is happening now is wanting revenge on rich people?
> 
> What is going on in our own hearts?  Jesus said let the person who has not sinned throw the first stone, and what I see is an excited mob with pockets full of stones, ready to throw them.
> 
> For me, this is all about culture.  I wish all men and women were loving and committed to being better people and family values.  That is not what our culture is promoting.




   "And I wonder how much of what is happening now is wanting revenge on rich people?"

  I know several folks that are extremely hatefull concerning the wealthy. 

  Some of them think I'm "rollin-in-it" [I'm not] because I am single and they think I have it so much beeter than they do ......... [I don't know, nor care] how we compare.

 A woman I know works data entry for a bank. One of her bosses retired ........ she actually believes his retirement package was too much ........ and should have been divvied up among the employees shuch as herself.

 She said, that's too much, he has too much........ I said well ....... somewhere tonight there is a guy going to sleep in a cardboard box under a bridge ......... who thinks *you* have too much. How much are you willing to give back ?? ..........No answer.


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> I'll say it again.. 16 in many places is a legal consenting age...14 is not!!




 I agree but ......... How does one know the age ......... if the girl in question lies ?

 14 can look like 16 ......... just like 16 can look like 19.


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## Pepper (Dec 31, 2021)

Ignorance is no excuse under the law.


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## hollydolly (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> I agree but ......... How does one know the age ......... if the girl in question lies ?
> 
> 14 can look like 16 ......... just like 16 can look like 19.


who said they lied?... in fact most of them said that Maxwell knew very well how old they were when they took them under her wing and acted like a 'big sister' to them....at first


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Ignorance is no excuse under the law.



 Are you saying I was ignorant ..... because she lied ?


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## Pepper (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> Are you saying I was ignorant ..... because she lied ?


Absolutely not.  In fact, I have sympathy for men who have been genuinely hoodwinked.  It is the law which says not knowing the girl's true age when she lies about it are guilty anyway as ignorance is no excuse.


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> who said they lied?... in fact most of them said that Maxwell knew very well how old they were when they took them under her wing and acted like a 'big sister' to them....at first




 First of all ...... of course they would say that ....... it fortifies their case . I never said they lied, I asked if their actual ages were actually known.


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## rgp (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Absolutely not.  In fact, I have sympathy for men who have been genuinely hoodwinked.  It is the law which says not knowing the girl's true age when she lies about it are guilty anyway as ignorance is no excuse.



 Well, having been there - done that ...... I think ignorance of the *facts* ....... should be an excuse if the *facts* are fudged.


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## Jeni (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> I agree ........... and wow I hate to say this but. Every photo & video clip that I saw of the "victims" back in the day, appear to be smiling / laughing / posing etc .......... I have to wonder, just how forced coerced were they ?
> 
> Is there money involved ? As in civil lawsuits , fortified by the legal outcome ? ....... Follow the money.


There is *always* money or promise of career or advancement like every workplace ****** harassment .....
the fact is the *age* thing and *traveling* across state lines / flying out of country
If creative they could have gone after tax evasion......... as girls had cash payouts not W2 

It is dismissed as blame the victim and people who admit they see it are scolded .......but if they are participating in hopes of a modeling or acting career. Sooner or later even the most naive girl should have Woke up to what was really happening.

So they were doing what they thought to get the job.... when UNDERAGE where are parent or guardian like any working child actor for example who often had parents as agents...most all have guardians present at jobs.

Funny people want to question this.......... but it seems to be a case of workplace harassment everyone is to be believed
Why did people jump on bandwagons when  adult actresses Knew / heard about Harvey Weinstien but went to his hotel room .......but it is a career move.
For many they did not get the career advancement they thought they would perhaps why it took 15-20 years to bring it up.

I myself am just curious as to why some famous got a pass in media for being involved and others need to be... scorned.

If they go after average person for underage  and just  SOME of the folks that have been rumored to have participated

but some others get "oh no i was on vacation there I had NO idea what was going on" and people say he said wrong place wrong time ... he or she is good. To me sounds as if those paid to keep it quiet and they knew what was happening


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 31, 2021)

rgp said:


> Agree here as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure I follow you here ?


I was thinking of the claims of alleged ****** contact with a minor by Prince Andrew.


----------



## Packerjohn (Dec 31, 2021)

If I had my way, she should be locked up and they should "throw the key away."  Another spoiled, high rolling celebrity that needs to be cut down to the ground.  Totally disgusting woman!


----------



## ohioboy (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Absolutely not.  In fact, I have sympathy for men who have been genuinely hoodwinked.  It is the law which says not knowing the girl's true age when she lies about it are guilty anyway as ignorance is no excuse.


Here is the charge in Count 4 concerning Transportation. As far as 2423 is concerned, we note the below defense of mistaken age, however, the burden shifts to the defendant as to proof, not the Govt. However, as you stated, in general rape cases, mistake of age is not a defense in most jurisdictions, not only that, an affirmative defense is just that, a defense, a question for the trier of fact to decide, it is absolutely not a winning pass. However, in her case, the ages were well known, no mistakes.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2423

(g)Defense.— (f 2 concerns Coercion) my note
In a prosecution under this section based on illicit ****** conduct as defined in subsection (f)(2), it is a defense, which the defendant must establish by clear and convincing evidence, that the defendant reasonably believed that the person with whom the defendant engaged in the commercial sex act had attained the age of 18 years.


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## Jeni (Dec 31, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2423
> 
> (g)Defense.—
> In a prosecution under this section based on illicit ****** conduct as defined in subsection (f)(2), it is a defense, which the defendant must establish by clear and convincing evidence, that the defendant reasonably believed that the person with whom the defendant engaged in the commercial sex act had attained the age of 18 years.



so commercial sex  act is 18 ..... but age of consent for amateur  status can vary by state ........
i needed to laugh today


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## ohioboy (Dec 31, 2021)

Jeni said:


> so commercial sex  act is 18 ..... but age of consent for amateur  status can vary by state ........
> i needed to laugh today


She was charged with federal crimes, state provisions are totally irrelevant.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jan 1, 2022)

Jeni said:


> There are many elites and famous  and i think this should be released ...
> It was mentioned as one of the reasons Melinda Gates.... used in her divorce from Bill Gates
> 
> people should Know just how sick some of these people are.... and they do not even blink an eye because they know money and the elite club will protect their own.


I agree Jeni. But being rich and powerful, they will probably remain protected. I'm sure many palms have been and will continue to be crossed (with money) to help keep the little black book secret.
@ohioboy Thank you for breaking it down for me.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 1, 2022)

While I watched a show about Mae West last night, I made a note of something said in the show.  Believing women do not enjoy sex makes women victims.  I do not believe the molested girls were victims.  I believe they were consenting and enjoying what they were engaged with, and they could have walked away from it whenever they wanted to.  The problem is not that being ****** harms young women once they have entered puberty and are consenting, but our Puritanical society makes women who enjoy sex victims of a Puritanical judgment against them.   That is where the shame comes in, our judgment of it being shameful to enjoy our sexuality.  Mae West enjoyed her sexuality and I can relate to that, while also being strongly inhibited by the Puritan mentality that became a part of who I am when I was very young.


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## Devi (Jan 1, 2022)

Points taken, @Vida May. However, the issue here is what the law says.


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## Vida May (Jan 1, 2022)

Devi said:


> Points taken, @Vida May. However, the issue here is what the law says.


 I know less about the law than I know of my heart. How aware we are of what Christianity has to do with our laws and our sometimes very harsh judgments and criminal justice system?


----------



## ohioboy (Jan 1, 2022)

Devi said:


> Points taken, @Vida May. However, the issue here is what the law says.


Correct. Age laws have always been a part of criminal jurisprudence. For example, even if a State has no specific Statutory age to charge a person with a crime, charging a 5 year old with murder won't cut it, and I believe in Ohio there is no "specific" statutory age. I remember in one State a person under 10 years old is incapable of committing any crime?


----------



## Alligatorob (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I have sympathy for men who have been genuinely hoodwinked. It is the law which says not knowing the girl's true age when she lies about it are guilty anyway as ignorance is no excuse.


This is a hard thing, having physical relations with underaged people is never good, on the other hand sometimes finding out ages can be hard.  Not sure I agree with the law on this, but it is what it is.

When I was 20 I knew a girl who looked all of 20 to me, and she acted it.  Found out she was 13, I was shocked.  Thankfully her mother told me before I got into trouble.

In this case I have no sympathy for Maxwell or Epstein, they actively recruited these girls and if they did not know the ages they had the resources to figure it out.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 1, 2022)

My great-grandson age 13 was molested by a female classmate and then charged with rape.  When it came out she had been molested by a family member, my great-grandson's explanation of being molested by her was accepted as the truth.  In truth is it often the young female who initiates sex, and I think we are being sexist in assuming it is always the male who advances on the female.   The matter is hormonal and I wish we were more tolerant.

After my great-grandson was accused of rape, I realized sex education may neglect to explain the statutory law.  He was victimized by the girl and the consequences of her accusing him of rape were socially and emotionally traumatic.  But who wants to start sex education with an explanation of statutory rape?

I want to clarify, it was the ****** experience that harmed him, but the reaction of adults and his peers.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 1, 2022)

rgp said:


> "And I wonder how much of what is happening now is wanting revenge on rich people?"
> 
> I know several folks that are extremely hatefull concerning the wealthy.
> 
> ...



That has also become an international concern.  We are challenged to re-evaluate our values and what is moral and possible how to a more just social/economic order?


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## Alligatorob (Jan 1, 2022)

Vida May said:


> My great-grandson age 13 was molested by a female classmate and then charged with rape.


I did not know that if both were underage charges were possible...  Surprising.

No matter, I am sorry this happened to your great-grandson and hope that both he and the girl are ok now.


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

Vida May said:


> That has also become an international concern.  We are challenged to re-evaluate our values and what is moral and possible how to a more just social/economic order?


No....the rise and fall of powerful people has been a running theme for thousands of years.  We humans take delight in seeing someone rise and then come down with a crash.  Shakespeare highlighted this in many a play; Herodotus had fun with it too; Samuel refers to the mighty falling (Saul & kin) in OT.  Saul earned bad luck by not welcoming David.  This theme as common as the written word.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 1, 2022)

Were these girls on any kind of payroll even if a known lie? What are 15 years doing signing any kind of contract even if on paper supposedly on staff as servers or dishwashers. Aren't there minimum ages in some states to sign or make a contract?


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

WhatInThe said:


> Were these girls on any kind of payroll even if a known lie? What are 15 years doing signing any kind of contract even if on paper supposedly on staff as servers or dishwashers. Aren't there minimum ages in some states to sign or make a contract?


A minor can't be held to a contract they signed themselves, or to an agreement verbally made by themselves.


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## ohioboy (Jan 1, 2022)

WhatInThe said:


> Were these girls on any kind of payroll even if a known lie? What are 15 years doing signing any kind of contract even if on paper supposedly on staff as servers or dishwashers. Aren't there minimum ages in some states to sign or make a contract?


While Employment can be referred to as a contract between parties, unless the law requires parental permission under a certain age, it is simply employment, employment is offered, and it is accepted, (offer and acceptance).


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## Jeni (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> A minor can't be held to a contract they signed themselves, or to an agreement verbally made by themselves.


exactly....... which is why i ask again where were parents or guardians ?    

parents had to be aware of something even if they bought the weak modeling career thing..... 
who else does not know where their 15 yr old is for long weekends in other states or on a private island........
Some of these "victims" recruited friends or others when will their trial be held?


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

The minor isn't seen as being an accomplice in their own misdeeds as the legality says they can't know any better; the adult in the situation should know better and is taking advantage.  Civil, not criminal law.


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## Jules (Jan 1, 2022)

There are many very young teens who consider themselves very grown up.  They could easily be recruited by the likes of Maxwell & Epstein.  

Listening to podcasts with some well-known celebrities, I’m shocked by the early age they became adventurous. I won’t use the word promiscuous because that should apply to the young men too.


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## mellowyellow (Jan 1, 2022)

I was so pleased when she was found guilty, I thought her friends in high places could have wangled her a ‘not guilty’ verdict. It’s doubtful she will get serious jail time but we can live in hope. She only came to America to escape the shame of her crooked father who after racking up huge debts, robbed the pension fund of one of his businesses. There were conspiracy theories about how he died, was it an accident or was he murdered.


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## Jeni (Jan 1, 2022)

Jules said:


> There are many very young teens who consider themselves very grown up.  They could easily be recruited by the likes of Maxwell & Epstein.
> 
> Listening to podcasts with some well-known celebrities, I’m shocked by the early age they became adventurous. I won’t use the word promiscuous because that should apply to the young men too.


it is common i think in hollywood for even child actors/ actress to learn what the casting couch is.

A well known former child actor went public during the Harvey Weinstein trial about this has happened to males too.... but it did not seem to go far on who did what to the males....


----------



## rgp (Jan 1, 2022)

Jeni said:


> it is common i think in hollywood for even child actors/ actress to learn what the casting couch is.
> 
> A well known former child actor went public during the Harvey Weinstein trial about this has happened to males too.... but it did not seem to go far on who did what to the males....




 I asked my Mother one time ...... why she quit singing when she did. Her 'hay-day' was mid-30's till about the start of the war. She stumbled over the casting couch explanation .... I was young @ the time. Later, when i was a young man the subject came up again, and she explained it again ...... and said 'in-a-nut-shell' she refused to go that route.

She said that many that did 'play-along' were hired by the better known orchestras & appeared at the better venues.

 Point being ........ that sort of thing goes way back ......... and according to my mother ........ they weren't shy about expecting it.

Shame really ........ a persons talent / ability should be enough to carry them. But maybe that is being just too naive


----------



## Trish (Jan 1, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I think their ages are only a legal technicality.  Back in the day it was said good girls didn't do it and bad girls did.  The girls were old enough to understand that concept and they chose to do it.


Back in the day, girls were labelled "good" or "bad" and boys were boys and rarely held accountable. 

The girls concerned were all under 18 years old and appeared to be without the protection of appropriately concerned parents. The modus operandi seems to have been to entrap teenage girls into a seemingly glamorous lifestyle.  We are not in a position to judge whether any of the girls were old enough or smart enough to understand much less choose to be sexually exploited and in some cases trafficked to other countries by rich, powerful people. 

I am grateful that the law at least recognises that it is the predator and not the victim who should rightly be held accountable, regardless of who they are and what status or power they currently enjoy.


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## Warrigal (Jan 1, 2022)

Some of the girls were groomed from the age of 14.

As a former teacher of girls that age, I can say with confidence that their capacity for making good choices is quite underdeveloped. My own daughter had a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences.

Any woman (or man) who scouts around for vulnerable teenagers to groom and then serves them up on a massage table to middle aged men is not a victim. She (he) is an enabler and an accomplice to crime.


----------



## Shero (Jan 1, 2022)

I hope this woman gets what she deserves.  She took young, vulnerable girls, girls who obviously came from broken homes. She chose carefully. She waited for them like a vulture. She shamed them for life. Regardless of their ages, she is a monster.

One would imagine a woman would have motherly instincts but instead, she had the instincts of a harpy.  I hope her sentence and this case, serves as a precedent to all the brothel madames who entice young destitute girls to be their slaves.
.


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## ohioboy (Jan 1, 2022)

Last Oct. there was a Major trafficking bust of over 200 people in NE Ohio, real quality mug shots, upstanding citzens, NOT.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/10...ng-including-arrests-portage-summit-counties/


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## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

Trish said:


> Back in the day, girls were labelled "good" or "bad" and boys were boys and rarely held accountable.
> 
> The girls concerned were all under 18 years old and appeared to be without the protection of appropriately concerned parents. The modus operandi seems to have been to entrap teenage girls into a seemingly glamorous lifestyle.  We are not in a position to judge whether any of the girls were old enough or smart enough to understand much less choose to be sexually exploited and in some cases trafficked to other countries by rich, powerful people.
> 
> I am grateful that the law at least recognises that it is the predator and not the victim who should rightly be held accountable, regardless of who they are and what status or power they currently enjoy.


 I am thinking this is not a safe subject to talk about.  I am afraid if I continue to do so, I will make enemies and it might even be too late for me to prevent the problem.  

What really hurt Mae West is people began doing pageants with young girls dressed up like Mae West and acting like her.  May west lost her contract with one of the production companies and things were so bad the people concerned with protecting children from her bad influence began attacking the Jews in the industry who did not have the same bias against sexuality.  

I do not know how anyone thinks the girls were hurt?  When it comes to exploiting people, our industry has a history of exploiting people.  People had to unionize to get safer working conditions and better wages.  The history of the coal miners fighting for decent lives is really sad and a coal company was willing to kill the coal miners before increasing their wages.  

The girls were willing and they got the benefits of money, and if they were living in poverty that would be about much more than money.  It is also about self-confidence and being cultured.  I hope people don't hate me because I have a different point of view but I can see how Ghislaine Maxwell thought she was doing something good by bringing girls into her world.  A way of life she wanted.    

And I was not taking this side of the argument before seeing the Mae West show and seeing film clips parading around like Mae West.  I was horrified, by her influence on young girls but it happens all the time- parents dress their little girls up like adults and put them in pageants not as little girls but as sexy adults.  I can see both sides.


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## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

ohioboy said:


> Last Oct. there was a Major trafficking bust of over 200 people in NE Ohio, real quality mug shots, upstanding citzens, NOT.
> 
> https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/10...ng-including-arrests-portage-summit-counties/


 I think that is different from the case we are discussing?  There is a level of sex trafficking that clearly victimizes females.  Just as there is a difference between low wages and slavery.  I don't think Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell saw themselves as lowly sex traffickers with no human morals.  They probably thought they were benefactors in the case being discussed.  If we do not think young people should engage in sex, what is the wrong?

It seems obvious the mug shots are men without much to offer and the potential to force women to do something they don't want to do with no concern for the women.   I think that is different and I hate what I have read about that kind of sex trafficking.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Some of the girls were groomed from the age of 14.
> 
> As a former teacher of girls that age, I can say with confidence that their capacity for making good choices is quite underdeveloped. My own daughter had a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences.
> 
> Any woman (or man) who scouts around for vulnerable teenagers to groom and then serves them up on a massage table to middle aged men is not a victim. She (he) is an enabler and an accomplice to crime.



Nicely said, "a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences".  I would not want my daughter to be one of those girls, but as someone said earlier, where were the parents?!  What is the harm if no one is aware of the harm?  Does it appear the girl's parents were consenting?   Or were the girls were very rebellious?


----------



## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

rgp said:


> I asked my Mother one time ...... why she quit singing when she did. Her 'hay-day' was mid-30's till about the start of the war. She stumbled over the casting couch explanation .... I was young @ the time. Later, when i was a young man the subject came up again, and she explained it again ...... and said 'in-a-nut-shell' she refused to go that route.
> 
> She said that many that did 'play-along' were hired by the better known orchestras & appeared at the better venues.
> 
> ...


My mother too.  She sang for USO shows.  When my parents divorced my mother moved my sister and me to Hollywood, California.   She had high hopes, but was not willing to do the casting couch.  Until the day she died she want to be on the stage or in the movies because she loved making people happy by entertaining like Bob Hope and his peers.  I really like the changes that better protect women.


----------



## Trish (Jan 2, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I am thinking this is not a safe subject to talk about.  I am afraid if I continue to do so, I will make enemies and it might even be too late for me to prevent the problem.
> 
> What really hurt Mae West is people began doing pageants with young girls dressed up like Mae West and acting like her.  May west lost her contract with one of the production companies and things were so bad the people concerned with protecting children from her bad influence began attacking the Jews in the industry who did not have the same bias against sexuality.
> 
> ...



I was not and will never hold anyone's opinion against them, no matter how much I may disagree.  Our individual lives and experience shape our view of the world and, I believe, we would be a lot poorer for it if anyone were to feel that they could not give their honest view.  When you think about it, a conversation would get pretty boring very quickly if everyone had the same opinion.

I do not believe for one minute that Maxwell ever had any good will towards the girls she helped recruit and, it is alleged, herself assaulted but, that is my belief and you are of course entitled to yours and I hope you will continue to be true to yourself.


----------



## Jeni (Jan 2, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Nicely said, "a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences".  I would not want my daughter to be one of those girls, but as someone said earlier, where were the parents?!  What is the harm if no one is aware of the harm?  Does it appear the girl's parents were consenting?   Or were the girls were very rebellious?


Not sure where all these folks took the girls...... but seemed too easy to have a private island and plane ....
 if you were leaving the country on a commercial flight or real country that would require PASSPORT...... 

We do not have all the info but perhaps if girls are from poor families ........the parents might have consented to travel etc.  
The red flags in this whole situation are obvious.... but the details matter and we do not have those.

As for harm ... yes many women regret/ feel awful/ have mental issues about any encounter like this ..... 
maybe they resort to alcohol/ pills to forget... 
I just think many would have a better closure if not waiting close to 20 yrs to get it.   

Same goes for people going after celebrities for alleged events 15-20 yrs ago.......maybe is is going after rich/ famous   this does not happen to an average Joe .... without more proof then she said / he said 

 Maybe with 20/20 hindsight the amount they were paid  was not good enough.......was simply not enough to be groped etc by older weird guys...

How many who did casting couch but did NOT get part ....feel disgusted and mad/ betrayed  by what happened.....    yet so many do not say anything until they jump on bandwagon or person is dead 

Some say no thanks and walk away perhaps not working in field again.... maybe some regret that....

I have NOT walked in those shoes ........maybe i would see differently if I had lived through that. 
but life does not have a Do-Over button.

In court to prosecute on a theory it is all the defendants issue ......


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## hollydolly (Jan 2, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Not sure where all these folks took the girls...... but seemed too easy to have a private island and plane ....
> if you were leaving the country on a commercial flight or real country that would require PASSPORT......
> 
> *We do not have all the info but perhaps if girls are from poor families ........the parents might have consented to travel etc.
> ...


My bold above...

It seems that the majority of these girls were from broken or poverty stricken homes from what I've read. One mother said that she was informed by her 14 year old who was at that time being abused by both Maxwell and Epstein.. that she employed as their  cleaner.. and was earning $300...


----------



## Jeni (Jan 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> My bold above...
> 
> It seems that the majority of these girls were from broken or poverty stricken homes from what I've read. One mother said that she was informed by her 14 year old who was at that time being abused by both Maxwell and Epstein.. that she employed as their  cleaner.. and was earning $300...


I had not seen that but there seems to be bits and pieces .. 
i saw a interview with one of the girls and she did not say her family was poor... but was very happy about 300 to go to party and at first being taught to massage Epstein.... brought her sister next time.

I understand being poor but would not look the other way if my daughter was involved....


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

............Everybody's looking for something.................
Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to get used by you. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused
_Sweet Dreams_ by Eurythmics


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## Jeni (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> ............Everybody's looking for something.................
> Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to get used by you. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused
> _Sweet Dreams_ by Eurythmics


exactly....


----------



## garyt1957 (Jan 2, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> She was convicted of conspiracy to entice a minor to travel to engage in secs (my word) acts, conspiracy to transport a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal secs activity, conspiracy to commit illegal secs trafficking of minors and secs trafficking of minors, the last of which carries a statutory maximum of 40 years in prison.


Are you afraid or embarrassed to write "sex"?  Just curious.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> this is what the press are saying..however..I think she's now caught between a rock and a hard place..  if she grasses on others , someone will arrange for her to go the way of her boyfriend  when she gets out or even before.. or conversely   she doesn't name anyone and relies on her very expensive lawyers to get her the minimum time....
> 
> I think she'll wait to see what her sentence will be.. if she gets less than 10 years, she'll be out in 4 or 5.. and she won't name anyone... if she gets the full 9 yards.. then she may agree to co-operate at her first appeal ..
> 
> ..all that said... if these particular celebrities, royals ( from several countries).. and politicians haven't been named during Maxwells' trial by the _victims_.. then it would be very difficult for the prosecution to prove that these others were involved in any way, so I can't imagine that she will get any reduction for naming others...it also means that if she doesn't.. it wil suit her , because she can continue to stay in that secret paedophile, circle.. when she is released....because for sure, she's going to be rotten meat by any of the upper social echelon to which she's been used to being a part of all of her life..


Good point, why don't the victims out the people involved?


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

How did Epstein make his money?  Hedge funds?  How?  Who backed him?  I don't think he was born rich, was he?


----------



## Jeni (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> How did Epstein make his money?  Hedge funds?  How?  Who backed him?  I don't think he was born rich, was he?


he did have some legit business dealings but from articles at the time of his death most speculated that his dealings did not show enough $$$ to support this operation and lifestyle. 
 I know he liked to surround himself with rich and famous and some said they vacationed on island so was there a charge or was it like inviting friends over....


----------



## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

Jeni said:


> he did have some legit business dealings but from articles at the time of his death most speculated that *his dealings did not show enough $$$ to support this operation and lifestyle.*
> I know he liked to surround himself with rich and famous and some said they vacationed on island so was there a charge or was it like inviting friends over....


Then how did he do it?  By leveraging his debts?  Maybe someone was backing him.  What was his estate like?  Did he have more than he owed?  I really don't expect you to do all the work in finding out!!!  But........how?  Who?


----------



## Jeni (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Then how did he do it?  By leveraging his debts?  Maybe someone was backing him.  What was his estate like?  Did he have more than he owed?  I really don't expect you to do all the work in finding out!!!  But........how?  Who?


my guess is those guests were clients who paid  ... 
maybe his "friends" picked up costs  ... maybe a club with membership  Dues ........   
The attempts to read more about it were never clear as to where the money was from or where it went.

 i do not think he was a host.... there had to be  something in it for him ..... 

What i find surprising anymore is in stories media wants to cover they dissect everything in some dig up  ... simply leave the reader to speculate...
Big secrets were kept .... not just girls but other staff many have not named we saw X,Y,  Z there .....

 why so much loyalty to keep quiet....... even big bucks fade after awhile how many past employees of rich/famous or infamous have spilled the beans after a certain time......
Once out of job ......him dead.. her in prison ......where is the pilots/ drivers / house staff .... or those who would love an expose story to make money on.


----------



## Tish (Jan 2, 2022)

I truly believe that they made good with Prince Andrew, who by the way has been asked to present medical evidence that he does not sweat.
To gain access to the Royal residences and other royals.


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## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Not sure where all these folks took the girls...... but seemed too easy to have a private island and plane ....
> if you were leaving the country on a commercial flight or real country that would require PASSPORT......
> 
> We do not have all the info but perhaps if girls are from poor families ........the parents might have consented to travel etc.
> ...



That is wise to question if what you think would be different if you had a different experience.   Because I live with a notion of a past life, a completely different consciousness than the consciousness I have now, I am really hung up on the notion that what we think and do is really about our circumstances and experiences.  

While I love protecting men and women against ****** harassment, and ****** discrimination, I also feel sorry for the men who are getting into so much trouble for just touching a woman or saying the wrong thing, years after the fact or even it happens today.  It seems like suddenly instead of laughing as we did when watching Mash, we are now calling for revenge on those terrible ****** preditors.  

How we think about our sexuality has changed and I think we live in very confusing times!   Given that, I don't think it is exactly fair to judge people for what they did in the past, with today's sensitivities.  And in Maxwell's case, things are pretty complicated.  I think she was trying to please her man.  I would feel better about persecuting him than her. But as you said, we really don't know enough. And what of the girls' parents and the morals they learned.

Puritanism was very harmful to women.  Has it raised its ugly head again?  Why do we feel shame if it is not because of society?  Mae West and prostitutes have argued for a different standard.  Are we right to deny them their different understanding of what should be acceptable?
Are the girls victims of ****** experience or society's judgment?


----------



## Vida May (Jan 2, 2022)

Jeni said:


> I had not seen that but there seems to be bits and pieces ..
> i saw a interview with one of the girls and she did not say her family was poor... but was very happy about 300 to go to party and at first being taught to massage Epstein.... brought her sister next time.
> 
> I understand being poor but would not look the other way if my daughter was involved....


There was a song about a mother telling her daughter to be nice to men.


----------



## Trish (Jan 2, 2022)

Vida May said:


> That is wise to question if what you think would be different if you had a different experience.   Because I live with a notion of a past life, a completely different consciousness than the consciousness I have now, I am really hung up on the notion that what we think and do is really about our circumstances and experiences.
> 
> While I love protecting men and women against ****** harassment, and ****** discrimination, I also feel sorry for the men who are getting into so much trouble for just touching a woman or saying the wrong thing, years after the fact or even it happens today.  It seems like suddenly instead of laughing as we did when watching Mash, we are now calling for revenge on those terrible ****** preditors.
> 
> ...


The bit I have emboldened is such an interesting question Vida.

I would say neither.  

The girls are victims of ****** exploitation but also of the times they lived in when those who should have protected them, did not.  Instead they took the view that the victims were complicit, even deserving, of the abuse they suffered.  I believe that it is a change in attitude towards ****** exploitation which has helped victims to now seek justice.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 2, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Puritanism was very harmful to women. Has it raised its ugly head again?


That is a good point.  We will always have grey areas between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and some need to draw bright lines somewhere in that grey.   Things like the age of consent are a good example, the day before that birthday it would be a felony to have sex with an older person, the day after its fine.  As we navigate all this we need to do the best we can.

However it seems to me that Maxwell and Epstein were well out of that grey area, no question to me that what they did should be illegal.


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## Shalimar (Jan 2, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Some of the girls were groomed from the age of 14.
> 
> As a former teacher of girls that age, I can say with confidence that their capacity for making good choices is quite underdeveloped. My own daughter had a tendency to decide in the moment without much regard to the consequences.
> 
> Any woman (or man) who scouts around for vulnerable teenagers to groom and then serves them up on a massage table to middle aged men is not a victim. She (he) is an enabler and an accomplice to crime.


QFT


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## mellowyellow (Jan 2, 2022)

The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.


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## Ruthanne (Jan 2, 2022)

I didn't follow the trial because it hits close to home as to what I went through as a very young girl. 

But as to what I gathered from the news and that there were accusers that were sexually abused and exploited--I find her disgusting and hope she gets enough time to think about and regret what she did and what she contributed to.


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## Trish (Jan 3, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.


Apparently all records (even trivia stuff) are kept for prosperity.  I would be very surprised if he had gone anywhere without security especially somewhere as public as Pizza Express.


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

Trish said:


> Apparently all records (even trivia stuff) are kept for prosperity.  I would be very surprised if he had gone anywhere without security especially somewhere as public as Pizza Express.


The hosts of the pizza party which was for a fellow pupil of Beatrice... stated that Beatrice did attend , but no-one has any recollection of PA being there..... 
There's no way that anyone is going to forget that a Major Royal has dropped their kid off at your private party held in a pizza hut...


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## Butterfly (Jan 3, 2022)

Trish said:


> I was not and will never hold anyone's opinion against them, no matter how much I may disagree.  Our individual lives and experience shape our view of the world and, I believe, we would be a lot poorer for it if anyone were to feel that they could not give their honest view.  When you think about it, a conversation would get pretty boring very quickly if everyone had the same opinion.
> 
> I do not believe for one minute that Maxwell ever had any good will towards the girls she helped recruit and, it is alleged, herself assaulted but, that is my belief and you are of course entitled to yours and I hope you will continue to be true to yourself.


I agree.


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## Butterfly (Jan 3, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> The hosts of the pizza party which was for a fellow pupil of Beatrice... stated that Beatrice did attend , but no-one has any recollection of PA being there.....
> There's no way that anyone is going to forget that a Major Royal has dropped their kid off at your private party held in a pizza hut...


What country is the Pizza Express in?


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

Butterfly said:


> What country is the Pizza Express in?


the particular one that the party was in was in Woking  Surrey ...25 miles SW of Central London


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## ohioboy (Jan 3, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> the particular one that the party was in was in Woking  Surrey ...25 miles SW of Central London


And what a stunning coincidence that happens to be when a molestation took place?? Gee, the Prince has a good memory!!


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

ohioboy said:


> And what a stunning coincidence that happens to be when a molestation took place?? Gee, the Prince has a good memory!!


oh yes it's very common for senior members of the royal family  to drop their child off at a party in a lowly Pizza express....dontchaknow.....


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## Trish (Jan 3, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> oh yes it's very common for senior members of the royal family  to drop their child off at a party in a lowly Pizza express....dontchaknow.....


I may be wrong of course but he doesn't strike me as a humble chap, gosh he doesn't even sweat ... #dontchaknow ... #tooposhtosweat


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## Vida May (Jan 3, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> That is a good point.  We will always have grey areas between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and some need to draw bright lines somewhere in that grey.   Things like the age of consent are a good example, the day before that birthday it would be a felony to have sex with an older person, the day after its fine.  As we navigate all this we need to do the best we can.
> 
> However it seems to me that Maxwell and Epstein were well out of that grey area, no question to me that what they did should be illegal.



I actually agree with you.  I detest sex trafficking!   

But I am not sure the girls were unwilling victims?   It is a matter of degree.  I have heard sex trafficking stories that are truly tragedic. Clearly forcing young men and women to be sex slaves.  I just don't think that is the case with Maxwell and Epstein.  What they did is wrong, and I guess many rich and powerful men were involved.  That may be different from the sex trafficking that denies the victim human rights?  

I am more concerned with the possible Puritanical nature that denies female sexuality *and responsibility*.  

How about this if a teenager kills someone, the teenager is treated as an adult.  I think that is totally wrong.   If we are going to treat the ones who kill like adults, why not the ones who consent to ****** behavior?   The difference for me is who is consenting and who is not.


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## Vida May (Jan 3, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> The Duke of York cannot provide documentary evidence that he has the “inability to sweat”, his lawyers have said, Prince Andrew is also unable to name any witnesses to support his alibi that he was in Pizza Express in Woking on the night he was accused of having sex with Virginia Roberts, now Giuffre, in 2001 when she was 17.



What relevance would not being able to sweat have?   Is it supposed to prove something?


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## Devi (Jan 3, 2022)

@Vida May, I don't think anyone is arguing against female sexuality, or claiming that (young) females don't have ****** feelings, etc. What the issue is is that *the girls were underage*. And thus protected by law. We're talking pedophiles.


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## Jeni (Jan 3, 2022)

Devi said:


> @Vida May, I don't think anyone is arguing against female sexuality, or claiming that (young) females don't have ****** feelings, etc. What the issue is is that *the girls were underage*. And thus protected by law. We're talking pedophiles.


Just as a matter of the different ideas out there .... A professor at a university  I am trying to find which one..... i believe it was in California 

They suggest that Pedophiles have become a toxic word and some want to be referred to as M.A.P. or minor attracted person.
Yes that is how crazy discussions have become.


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

Those who are attracted sexually to young  teens ( around the age of 14-15) rather than children  are known as ephebophiles


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## Devi (Jan 3, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Just as a matter of the different ideas out there .... A professor at a university  I am trying to find which one..... i believe it was in California
> 
> They suggest that Pedophiles have become a toxic word and some want to be referred to as M.A.P. or minor attracted person.
> Yes that is how crazy discussions have become.


I read that, too. Well, they can call it whatever they like, if they're so sensitive about it or don't like the public's vision of what they are. They're just trying to make it sound better than it is. They're still pedophiles.

Point taken, @hollydolly.


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## Tish (Jan 3, 2022)

And now all the elite out there are shaking in their boots, there is no way she won't be dropping names to reduce her sentence.
Buckle up folks things are going to get very interesting and bumpy.


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## Devi (Jan 3, 2022)

Tish said:


> And now all the elite out there are shaking in their boots, there is no way she won't be dropping names to reduce her sentence.
> Buckle up folks things are going to get very interesting and bumpy.


I have to wonder — will she drop names to help herself, or will she not because dropping (big) names will bring threats to her?


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

Tish said:


> And now all the elite out there are shaking in their boots, there is no way she won't be dropping names to reduce her sentence.
> Buckle up folks things are going to get very interesting and bumpy.


I bluddy hope so


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## ohioboy (Jan 3, 2022)

Vida May said:


> How about this if a teenager kills someone, the teenager is treated as an adult.


Being tried as an adult is very State specific, and not always the case.


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

Devi said:


> I have to wonder — will she drop names to help herself, or will she not because dropping (big) names will bring threats to her?


that's _my _opinion. I feel if she's to get a long sentence she will name names.. but if as I suspect.. she gets a short sentence of under 10 years and out in 1/2 of that or less she will protect her own life and the chance she might be the next to be bumped off.. by keeping her mouth firmly shut. However I don't doubt that word has already got to her to keep quiet or suffer the consequences


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## Alligatorob (Jan 3, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I am more concerned with the possible Puritanical nature that denies female sexuality *and responsibility*.


I understand, and I do think there should be a difference between how we treat forced or coerced rape and consensual sex.  The punishment for the first should be much harsher than the second.  However I also believe there is some age below which even consensual sex with an older person should be prohibited.   I don't believe young people, men or women, can make those decisions well.  I am not sure what that age should be, outside of my expertise.

I know this more often involves a younger woman and an older man, but the other way round does happen.  Both situations should be treated the same.

The issue of teenage murder is somewhat different.  I do think youth should be taken into account in charging and sentencing.  However so should the likelihood of the perpetrator doing it again.  I believe society needs protection from likely repeat offenders, no matter the age.


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## Vida May (Jan 3, 2022)

Devi said:


> @Vida May, I don't think anyone is arguing against female sexuality, or claiming that (young) females don't have ****** feelings, etc. What the issue is is that *the girls were underage*. And thus protected by law. We're talking pedophiles.


 The age for ****** consent in Britain is 16.   In Denmark, it is 14.  In many countries, it is age 15.   



> France statutory rape law is violated when an individual has consensual ****** intercourse with a person under age 15. The age of consent rises to age 18 when the older party is an ascedant or a person having legal or factual authority over the victim, or when the offender is abusing the authority conferred by his functions.



https://www.ageofconsent.net/world/france

We know a 17-year-old brought in her 14-year-old sister but was she a year older before she was deflowered?  

I do not mean to defend sex trafficking, but if a citizen in Britain is involved does the US law apply to him?  

By the way, does anyone remember the Disney movie Fantasia?  It seems to sanction pedophilia.


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## Pepper (Jan 3, 2022)

Vida May said:


> By the way, does anyone remember the Disney movie Fantasia?  It seems to sanction pedophilia.


What scenes are you referencing in Fantasia?  Thanks.

Also, re: Prince A.
Didn't the event happen here in the U.S.?  We have extradition treaties with Britain, and he is being accused criminally I think?

Sex with a teenager, particularly 17, is in no way pedophilia.  I find when an important word is misused & abused it loses it's power.  Words & their definitions are important, IMO


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## ohioboy (Jan 3, 2022)

Pepper, he is being Sued, no criminal charge as of yet!


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## mellowyellow (Jan 3, 2022)

Vida May said:


> What relevance would not being able to sweat have?   Is it supposed to prove something?



Hi Vida May,
In an interview Virginia Giuffre said “He is the most hideous dancer I've ever seen in my life. I mean it was horrible and this guy was sweating all over me, like his sweat was, like it was raining basically everywhere.”


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## Jeni (Jan 3, 2022)

https://filmdaily.co/news/jeffrey-epstein-island-secrets/

This link is an overview of the Island.... pictures included.
I was curious but island is part of the U.S. virgin islands.  article say passports were confiscated ...but i am  not sure you need a passport to go to a U.S. territory if a U.S. citizen at least.

From the article i guess boat or helicopter was only access.


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## Pepper (Jan 3, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> Hi Vida May,
> In an interview Virginia Giuffre said “He is the most hideous dancer I've ever seen in my life. I mean it was horrible and this guy was sweating all over me, like his sweat was, like it was raining basically everywhere.”


According to this the Prince has the opposite problem, hyperhidrosis.


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## hollydolly (Jan 3, 2022)

_Legal documents Prince Andrew's lawyer believes will stop the civil sex lawsuit against him have been unsealed and made public.


Virginia Guiffre, also known as Roberts, is suing the 61-year-old royal for alleged ****** assault dating back to when she was a teenager.



But the Duke of York's lawyer Andrew B Brettler had argued the settlement agreement she entered into in 2009 with Andrew's pal and convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein would bring any dispute to an end.


The papers - made public today ( 3rd January 2022) by a New York court - state Ms Giuffre had agreed not to sue anyone connected to Epstein who could be described as a "potential defendant" - though doesn't name the prince directly.


They reveal the financier paid her $500,000 (£371,000) to end her claim.







And add such an agreement would "remise, release, acquit, satisfy, and forever discharge the said Second Parties and any other person or entity who could have been included as a potential defendant from all, and all manner of action and actions of Virginia Roberts".


Mr Brettler had previously told the New York hearing the agreement "releases Prince Andrew and others from any purported liability arising from the claims Ms Giuffre asserted against Prince Andrew here".


US District Judge Lewis A Kaplan, who is presiding over the civil case, is due to hold a video teleconference on Tuesday when a request by the Duke's legal team to dismiss the case will be heard.
Ms Giuffre is suing the Queen's son for allegedly sexually assaulting her when she was a teenager - saying she had been trafficked.


She is seeking unspecified damages, but there is speculation the sum could be in the millions of dollars.


She claims she was trafficked by disgraced financier Epstein to have sex with Andrew when she was aged 17 and a minor under US law._

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-prince-andrew-accuser-virginia-25840715


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## Vida May (Jan 4, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What scenes are you referencing in Fantasia?  Thanks.
> 
> Also, re: Prince A.
> Didn't the event happen here in the U.S.?  We have extradition treaties with Britain, and he is being accused criminally I think?
> ...


 I do not remember Fantasia that well, I just remember a friend and I were surprised.  Vaguely I remember something like Pan beings chasing after what looked more like female girls than female women.  It was not something that caught our attention before and we didn't think children would pick up on the ****** innuendo.  

I agree there is a problem with saying ****** interest in a 17-year-old is pedophilia.  Even by age 14 girls are coming into their sexuality.  That is why it was custom to marry them off at age 14 in some rural areas where life was difficult.  That is a totally different story but I mention it for perspective.  An Oregon man interviewed pioneers and wrote a book.  That is when I learned some of these women strongly resented the big fuss over slavery when their own slavery was ignored because we called it "marriage" when they were forced to marry an older man who wanted someone to clean and cook for him.  I have known older women, who are long dead now, who hated their husbands and were very glad when their husbands died.  The world was not always as it is today and marriage was not always about love.  It was about survival and getting rid of the daughter before she got pregnant.


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## Vida May (Jan 4, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> _Legal documents Prince Andrew's lawyer believes will stop the civil sex lawsuit against him have been unsealed and made public.
> 
> 
> Virginia Guiffre, also known as Roberts, is suing the 61-year-old royal for alleged ****** assault dating back to when she was a teenager.
> ...


 Thank you.  I heard something about that in the news but my hearing isn't good enough so I didn't understand what was being said.  I am seriously considering getting a hearing aid.


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## Vida May (Jan 4, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> Hi Vida May,
> In an interview Virginia Giuffre said “He is the most hideous dancer I've ever seen in my life. I mean it was horrible and this guy was sweating all over me, like his sweat was, like it was raining basically everywhere.”


Oh, thank you!  I have a strong curiosity and really wanted to know why sweat would have anything to do with anything.  It seemed a really weird thing to talk about.  

I looked up not being able to sweat and it is a real condition with several causes.  Surely if he has the condition a medical record would clarify that point.


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## Vida May (Jan 4, 2022)

Jeni said:


> https://filmdaily.co/news/jeffrey-epstein-island-secrets/
> 
> This link is an overview of the Island.... pictures included.
> I was curious but island is part of the U.S. virgin islands.  article say passports were confiscated ...but i am  not sure you need a passport to go to a U.S. territory if a U.S. citizen at least.
> ...


Thank you.  I was curious about the island being under US jurisdiction or not.   


ohioboy said:


> Pepper, he is being Sued, no criminal charge as of yet!


 Thank you for that clarification.  As I already said, my hearing isn't good, so I am not understanding audio information very well.


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## Tish (Jan 5, 2022)

I knew this would happen, and you can bet your bottom $$$ that she will start naming people.
Ghislaine Maxwell lawyers will ask for a new trial after learning TWO jurors disclosed their history of ****** abuse during deliberations and 'helped convince other jury members to convict'​
Full Story


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## RFW (Jan 5, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Just as a matter of the different ideas out there .... A professor at a university  I am trying to find which one..... i believe it was in California
> 
> They suggest that Pedophiles have become a toxic word and some want to be referred to as M.A.P. or minor attracted person.
> Yes that is how crazy discussions have become.


It's like they care so much that it hurts pedophiles' feelings when they themselves don't care one bit about the victims'.


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## Jeni (Jan 6, 2022)

RFW said:


> It's like they care so much that it hurts pedophiles' feelings when they themselves don't care one bit about the victims'.


Some people IMO are trying to normalize relationships with minors and most are not talking teens......
I often wondered if it is a person with no or low self esteem that in order to feel in interesting or in control they target children as age appropriate partners would find them immature and uninteresting intellectually.


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## gwowt (Jan 18, 2022)

The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's.  

The term "underage" used in the context of this atrocious activity of adults manipulating young girls 
and boys who have not yet gained the experience/ wisdom to "know better" is beyond despicable.
ANY person who puts their hands on and/ or coerces in ANY manner, forcing upon other persons who 
do not fully understand their situation, those who are unable to give knowledgeable "consent"; 
should IMO, burn alive.

Victim shaming young women who became vulnerable to the promises of these monsters is unforgivably disgusting.
The "law" gives these young inexperienced and easily malleable children a "legal age" status prior to their developing
 the ability to fully discern 'right from wrong'. sigh.

I really wish I'd not ventured into this area of the site.  I discovered here that there are very few who grasp what is 
truly happening with human trafficking and just how these CHILDREN are coerced into activities as the 'adults' will 
dangle that proverbial "carrot" of being 'loved' (creating confusion between sex/ love), $, fame, fortune etc., 
manipulating these CHILDREN into doing things that are simply inexcusable.  

Stating the victims could not really have been victimized because they were 'smiling' in pix??? smh.

It became apparent to me from reading this and the other thread about this trial that there are far too many 
here that are so out of touch with reality on the issue of child abuse, child trafficking, cyclic narcissistic abuse
and all the numerous remaining aspects thereof.  I find this thought process/ behavior, inexcusable.  
Put down the news and volunteer at a local non profit for child trafficking... that'll maybe open your minds?

Stop for just a moment and consider:  If these were *your* children at this age... how would you then 'think'
about child trafficking and victim shaming/ blaming?

Thank you folks for the enlightenment I've just gained here.
I am not willing to hang about with folks so far out of touch and exceedingly closed minded.

I will now, kindly show myself the door.


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## Trish (Jan 18, 2022)

gwowt said:


> The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's.
> 
> The term "underage" used in the context of this atrocious activity of adults manipulating young girls
> and boys who have not yet gained the experience/ wisdom to "know better" is beyond despicable.
> ...


Before you go, ponder this.  Despite your dismay you choose to judge and leave, you choose to close your mind against the possibility that you might stay, converse and possibly enlighten those who you believe to be out of touch and "exceedingly close minded".


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## rgp (Jan 18, 2022)

gwowt said:


> The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's.
> 
> The term "underage" used in the context of this atrocious activity of adults manipulating young girls
> and boys who have not yet gained the experience/ wisdom to "know better" is beyond despicable.
> ...




    "The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's."

  I disagree ...... to a point. By that I mean alot of it dependes on the "brain" .

 I know 50 yr/olds that are very immature , almost adolescent . And yet there are sometimes adolescent geniuses noted everyday. Again, how well do we know these "victims" and who may be behind them / coaching them ?

 And my standing thought ......... where is the [any] evidence ?

 Just imagine ...... any loved one in your family being accused of this heinous act ...... without any sort of evidence 20 years after the alledged incident . Facing a possible long term prison sentence . 

 This happened to a good friend of mine yesrs back . He thought for sure he was going to prison .......even making arrangments in his personal / financial life for it.

  He was exonerated completely ..... when the "girl" in question, broke down in court/on the witness stand , and stated it was all lies ...... dreamed up by her mother ..... just because my friend would not marry the mother. 

My friend was just retired at the time ....... and spent $58,000 on his defence ..... which he will never recover, as the mother had no assets for a law suit.


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## Trish (Jan 18, 2022)

rgp said:


> "The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's."
> 
> I disagree ...... to a point. By that I mean alot of it dependes on the "brain" .
> 
> ...


Apologies for being so pedantic but, being a genius does not make you streetwise or particularly bright in other subjects other than the area which you excel in.


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## Pepper (Jan 18, 2022)

I found this gwowt person to be smugly sanctimonious and self righteous.  In it's intro this person, who I must refer to as 'they' declared they have been watching the site for months & just couldn't think of a name to use.  Duh.  Guess they didn't read too carefully.  They doesn't allow people to look at they's profile.

I will not miss they and they pissed me off.  So there.


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## rgp (Jan 18, 2022)

Trish said:


> Apologies for being so pedantic but, being a genius does not make you streetwise or particularly bright in other subjects other than the area which you excel in.


 I never said it did .......... I am merely pointing out that the blanket statement .......""The human brain does not fully develop until the mid 20's."" simply isn't so for everyone.


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## rgp (Jan 18, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I found this gwowt person to be smugly sanctimonious and self righteous.  In it's intro this person, who I must refer to as 'they' declared they have been watching the site for months & just couldn't think of a name to use.  Duh.  Guess they didn't read too carefully.  They doesn't allow people to look at they's profile.
> 
> I will not miss they and they pissed me off.  So there.



 Can you explain this post/reply ?

 And, what is a gwowt person ??


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## Pepper (Jan 18, 2022)

rgp said:


> Can you explain this post/reply ?
> 
> And, what is a gwowt person ??


See post #150.  Self explanatory.  IMO.


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## hollydolly (Jan 18, 2022)

So finally we get to see more the house  in Belgravia London..owned by Maxwell where the infamous picture of PA and the victim was taken on the upstairs landing...Maxwell put it up for sale for a Million and a half to pay for her legal fees..last year, and less than a year later ( 7 months) the new owners have put it up for sale for £2.5 million ..untouched aside from a little outdoor paint


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## hollydolly (Jan 18, 2022)




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## Pepper (Jan 18, 2022)

Randy Andy.  Looks positively lecherous in that pic.


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## rgp (Jan 18, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Randy Andy.  Looks positively lecherous in that pic.




 And I'll add ........ the "girl" ........ looks more like a young "woman" in that pic as well.


----------

