# Nature is cruel (part one)



## chic (Jul 11, 2015)

Do you agree with the above statement? Disagree?

While watching a nature documentary, it impressed me that nature is essentially cruel. The stong prey upon the weak. The large prey upon the small. The swift prey upon the slow. And everything preys upon the cripple, blind and the aged or anything within their own species that looks different.

It's even worse for humans who learn sometime during childhood that they are not immortal and will one day die.

Just my thought for the day.

Opinions? Comments?


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## Falcon (Jul 11, 2015)

Some people call it "The survival of the fittest."


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## AZ Jim (Jul 11, 2015)

Regardless of what it's called the OP is absolutely correct.  Nature is cruel.  Is it the absence of conscience?


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## imp (Jul 11, 2015)

*Could it be any Different?*



chic said:


> Do you agree with the above statement? Disagree?
> 
> While watching a nature documentary, it impressed me that nature is essentially cruel. The stong prey upon the weak. The large prey upon the small. The swift prey upon the slow. And everything preys upon the cripple, blind and the aged or anything within their own species that looks different.
> 
> ...



A bunch, if you don't mind! Your post delves deeply into a personal pool of questions within me, all of a vein similar to the facts you wrote. IMO, I think the word "cruel" is less descriptive of nature than "ruthless". We watch large numbers of Gambel's Quail here daily, feeding them seed every morning. Their babies are the cutest thing to observe, running along with their momma and papa, who usually stands and watches for trouble. We do not know if the young are fed in the nest at all, as some we've seen running about have bodies only slightly larger than golf balls. These birds can fly prodigiously, but seem to prefer not to except in time of emergency. They are undoubtedly easy fodder for the large flying predatory birds. Yesterday my wife "ran off" a malingering cat, which no doubt would devour a bird, could it catch one.




Male Gambel's Quail in Joshua Tree National Park

Of all places to call home, this bleak desert is a curious place to imagine as home for these quail, but surprisingly, they are classed as desert dwellers.  The quail we had in Missouri were definitely another kind, much more prone to flight. People (?) eat quail, as a delicacy!

Children becoming aware of their mortality is a fact of life, no? I always say, despite the strong survival instinct present in animal species of all kinds, none except the human, are aware of the inevitability of eventual death. That awareness among us makes for a philosophical outlook upon which may be built hypotheses about why humans wage war, kill lesser species for "sport" (?!), attempt foolhardy pursuits which can result in death, commit suicide. I cannot think of any living thing other than humans that commits purposeful suicide.

Regarding preying upon the lesser-strong, a parallel exists in human history where political "leaders", Joseph Stalin, for example, strengthened his society by destroying foodstuffs rather than allowing it's distribution, thereby creating intended famine. This "cleansed" his country of those most susceptible (and least productive): the aged, the sick, the already impoverished, succumbed first, leaving the strong (and therefore the most productive) alive. Estimated numbers dead run from 20 to 40 million! A perverse face of "nature"?     imp


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## Lon (Jul 11, 2015)

No it is not cruel as you choose to call it, but it is necessary.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 11, 2015)

imp said:


> A bunch, if you don't mind! Your post delves deeply into a personal pool of questions within me, all of a vein similar to the facts you wrote. IMO, I think the word "cruel" is less descriptive of nature than "ruthless". We watch large numbers of Gambel's Quail here daily, feeding them seed every morning. Their babies are the cutest thing to observe, running along with their momma and papa, who usually stands and watches for trouble. We do not know if the young are fed in the nest at all, as some we've seen running about have bodies only slightly larger than golf balls. These birds can fly prodigiously, but seem to prefer not to except in time of emergency. They are undoubtedly easy fodder for the large flying predatory birds. Yesterday my wife "ran off" a malingering cat, which no doubt would devour a bird, could it catch one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feed about 10 a day,some since they were chicks.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 11, 2015)

Lon said:


> No it is not cruel as you choose to call it, but it is necessary.



Agree, and would add that it is as it has been since the beginning of life. That is just the Way. It's just that we humans start to think that we're above it all ...


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 11, 2015)

Cruel, but with a purpose?


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## Cookie (Jul 11, 2015)

Absolutely very cruel - the animal kingdom is a horror show.  The natural world is very dangerous, we shouldn't be fooled by the beauty.  I don't think there's any more purpose to nature as there is to the universe in general.  It just is - that's all we know for sure.


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## John C (Jul 11, 2015)

I used to think Lemmings committed suicide, but I was wrong.  I found this statement on the internet:

Lemmings do not commit mass suicide. It's a myth, but it's remarkable how many people believe it. Ask a few.
"It's  a complete urban legend," said state wildlife biologist Thomas  McDonough. "I think it blew out of proportion based on a Disney  documentary in the '50s, and that brought it to the mainstream."


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## imp (Jul 11, 2015)

*"The natural world is very dangerous, we shouldn't be fooled by the beauty"

*How, then, may it be termed "natural"? Would an "unnatural" world not be even more dangerous? But, you are right. Beauty is, as beauty can detriment. Oleanders, beautiful colorful blossoms, green leaves the year 'round, poisonous as hell! 

The beautiful Periwinkle! A type of Vinca, from which is extracted a _plant alkaloid _known as Vincristine. It is a potent, dangerous, and deadly chemo-therapeutic drug.

Rhubarb! Often made by my Mother into a tasty sauce-like porridge, scrumptious to a little kid. "Rhubarb leaves contain poisonous substances, including oxalic acid, which is a nephrotoxic and corrosive acid that is present in many plants. Humans have been poisoned after ingesting the leaves. Such poisoning was a particular problem in World War I, when *the leaves were recommended as a food source in Britain!    * imp


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## Laurie (Jul 12, 2015)

No.  Cruelty is an entirely human trait.

No other species  inflicts pain for pleasure, only from fear, hunger, rivalry or teaching young.


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## chic (Jul 12, 2015)

Laurie said:


> No. Cruelty is an entirely human trait.
> 
> No other species inflicts pain for pleasure, only from fear, hunger, rivalry or teaching young.



Yes exactly and are not humans part of the natural world?? I believe they are.

Okay. Nature is cruel but is that efficient? I saw a PBS special about a young couple travelling through Idaho to study and film the lives of wolves. The wolves had isolated an injured adult female elk on a craigy hill, waiting for sunset to attack and kill her. The injured elk could not go back down because the footing was trecherous and she was too injured. She couldn't go forward because she's head right into the wolves. Suddenly another adult female elk climbed the craig and placed herself between the injured elk and the wolves. The wolves, not wanting to risk injury confronting two elks in the winter, decided to back off. It was one of the most interesting moments in a nature tv show I've ever seen. Makes me wonder why more animals don't do the same?


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## John C (Jul 12, 2015)

I always feel good when I hear a story like this.  Thanks.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 12, 2015)

Animals that kill from packs like wolves I have no respect for.  A helpless animal trapped by them is doomed due to the way they circle and kill.


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## Cookie (Jul 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Animals that kill from packs like wolves I have no respect for.  A helpless animal trapped by them is doomed due to the way they circle and kill.



That is exactly what a pack of humans (the meat industry) does when they kill animals.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 12, 2015)

Nature is cruel...  but I also agree that it's necessary....  however that doesn't make me want to see it..   I quickly change TV channels when something is chasing and killing something else..  Not want I consider entertainment.. no matter how natural


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## AZ Jim (Jul 12, 2015)

I turn channels when that sad music comes on and shows the hungry and abused animals.  I give to several animal rescue operations but what can I do better by seeing those poor sad animals.  I wish to hell people would spay and neuter their pets.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I turn channels when that sad music comes on and shows the hungry and abused animals.  I give to several animal rescue operations but what can I do better by seeing those poor sad animals.  I wish to hell people would spay and neuter their pets.



You and me both Jim...   I support my local shelter...  I donate food, blankets, towels... anything they may be able to use...  I also sponsor a "Cage" every year..   So I donate what the shelter feels it needs on average to support animals in a single "cage" for a year..  I am attending the gala for the shelter in September...    But I cannot look at the abuse... it tears me up..
"


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## AZ Jim (Jul 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You and me both Jim...   I support my local shelter...  I donate food, blankets, towels... anything they may be able to use...  I also sponsor a "Cage" every year..   So I donate what the shelter feels it needs on average to support animals in a single "cage" for a year..  I am attending the gala for the shelter in September...    But I cannot look at the abuse... it tears me up..
> "




It would be different if we could stop it, but sadly we cannot.  People say "they are _only_ animals!"  Yes, but given the choice between animals and humans, I say I trust animals more than many people.  I do not think of us as superior to them, we all share life.


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## Glinda (Jul 12, 2015)

Cookie said:


> That is exactly what a pack of humans (the meat industry) does when they kill animals.



You're so right, Cookie!


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 12, 2015)

chic said:


> Okay. Nature is cruel but is that efficient? I saw a PBS special about a young couple travelling through Idaho to study and film the lives of wolves. The wolves had isolated an injured adult female elk on a craigy hill, waiting for sunset to attack and kill her. The injured elk could not go back down because the footing was trecherous and she was too injured. She couldn't go forward because she's head right into the wolves. Suddenly another adult female elk climbed the craig and placed herself between the injured elk and the wolves. The wolves, not wanting to risk injury confronting two elks in the winter, decided to back off. It was one of the most interesting moments in a nature tv show I've ever seen. Makes me wonder why more animals don't do the same?



I've watched a lot of these films, and I get very emotional for the animals, as I hate to see them attacked and killed by others, tissues are always handy.  Unfortunately, chances are good that the injured elk wasn't going to survive anyway, the death could be slow and drawn out or made quicker.  If they can't get around as nature intended, they will perish one way or another.

I think it's great that the other elk was protective, and I'm sure that happens quite a bit out in the wild, but the results are likely short term.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 12, 2015)

How do you know the injured elk wouldn't survive?


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 12, 2015)

I don't know that, I just said that chances are good, animals injured in the wild rarely survive if they can't even navigate their terrain.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 12, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I don't know that, I just said that chances are good, animals injured in the wild rarely survive if they can't even navigate their terrain.



Until we know I prefer to think the injured animal was spared a death by a mauling pack of wolves.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 12, 2015)

I prefer to think that too, but from all I've seen in nature films, that is not the reality.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 12, 2015)

That's why I don't watch these nature shows...   I know that this exists.. and I know that it's necessary... I just don't want to see it..


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 13, 2015)

Nature is cruel and if you believe in God then he or she is cruel too...


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## chic (Jul 13, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I turn channels when that sad music comes on and shows the hungry and abused animals. I give to several animal rescue operations but what can I do better by seeing those poor sad animals. I wish to hell people would spay and neuter their pets.



I can't watch those either Jim. But if more people fostered pets for the SPCA it would really help fewer animals requiring euthanasia.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 13, 2015)

chic said:


> I can't watch those either Jim. But if more people fostered pets for the SPCA it would really help fewer animals requiring euthanasia.



And if the ASPCA would cut their adoption fees they'd adopt out a lot more animals rather than euthanizing them ...



> Cats over 3 years of age: FREE
> Cats age 4 months –3 years: $75.00
> Kittens up to 4 months: $125.00
> Dogs:  $75 to $200* (smaller and younger dogs have higher adoption fees);  mandatory obedience classes for puppies are $50.00 for 5 classes. NYC  residents will need to pay $8.50 for the DOH dog license.


ASPCA


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## Laurie (Jul 14, 2015)

"Animals that kill from packs like wolves I have no respect for."

A great pity.  We should have respect for all living things.  They are only doing what hature intended.

Wolves need to survive too.

"How do you know the injured elk wouldn't survive?"

Because injured and weak species in the wild are killed so that others may live.

We may not like survival of the fittest, or practise it (I hope) in human society, but that's the way it is.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 14, 2015)

Yup, but couldn't have Mommy Nature come up with a better plan?  Or, if you prefer, God?


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## SifuPhil (Jul 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Yup, but couldn't have Mommy Nature come up with a better plan?  Or, if you prefer, God?



Maybe that IS the better plan - otherwise you'd have weaklings running the world.

Oh, wait, we _do_ ...


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 14, 2015)

It is a cruel and evil plan no matter who or what authored it...


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## SifuPhil (Jul 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> It is a cruel and evil plan no matter who or what authored it...



Maybe there WAS no author ... 

... maybe we're all just ghostwritten.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 14, 2015)

All that exists is in one's mind so maybe we are all the authors of our unique universes...


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## SifuPhil (Jul 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> All that exists is in one's mind so maybe we are all the authors of our unique universes...



My universe has a Sonic every 3 parsecs.


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 14, 2015)

Whatever that is keep it to yourself...


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