# Learning to negotiate things on my own..to avoid being taken advantage of



## Marie5656 (May 30, 2019)

*I am planning to have a small porch rebuilt on my house.  Steps and an 8x8 deck.  working with a friend of Ricks who does handy work, and helped us build the ramp on the front of the house.

Here is my delema, He showed me two quoted prices for the materials.  Lowest was about $850 which I am told is reasonable, as highest was over $1100.  I am going with them to buy the supplies, and to pay for them.  Want to assure they are not buying more than is needed.  Advocating for myself.

I have a pretty strict budget, now than I am alone.  I know what I can afford to pay for the labor.  I am also having the guys brother help me clean out our shed, get rid of stuff, and to stain the ramp.  
Here is my issue.  The friend wants to charge me $3500 for all the work. Building the deck and steps, and for his brother to help with the two other tasks.  The deck should not take more than 2-3 days of work. The shed and staining ramp, a half day.


I called my brother, who has been helping me negotiate my new normal. He has been a good help with major financial decisions.  He blew a gasket at the quoted price as he feels it is way too much.  I tend to agree, and feel I am being taken advantage of.  This guy was a friend of Rick's for about 30 years, and I think Rick was an easy touch, and would agree to most quoted prices.

I do not have the money to pay $3500 PLUS the cost of materials.  Now I need to learn to be more assertive and let them know that their quote price is out of the question.  Thing is, I think the friend feels my brother will help me out with paying, as he paid for the ramp.  My brother has the financial resources, and has offered to help me whenever needed.  But he said that since I am wanting to do this on my own, without his help I need to really let them know I cannot pay their price.

The friend said he wants to do job during June as they are going on vacation in July.  He as much as said that it is partly due to the fact he needs the $$ for the vacation to Florida to visit his daughter.  I want to pay a fair price, but do NOT want to finance his trip...when I would like to take my own vacation.

I have $3000 set aside to pay extra bills over the next couple months..and this would include paying him.  How do I get the nerve to just say no??  How unreasonable am I being if I say I cannot afford him?   My brother said to say that if he wants that price, then I cannot afford to do the job, and say I am calling it off.  
*


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## RadishRose (May 30, 2019)

I agree your brother is right about being honest enough to reject the friend's estimate. I don't know what is fair, but if you feel the price is not, just tell him no. Don;t worry about being pressured due to his vacation in July. It's no crime to be getting other estimates.

Before that, get a copy of the plans he drew, go to a lumber yard and ask for a "Lumber List" with estimated cost of materials. Ask if they have any (insured) carpenters who would be interested in bidding for the job.

Good luck.


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## Aunt Bea (May 30, 2019)

Just be honest and tell him that it's more money than you are comfortable spending.

Saying *no* only feels strange the first few times but once you get the hang of it you won't think twice! layful:nthego:

Good luck!


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## Marie5656 (May 30, 2019)

*Thanks, ladies.* *I have been told that sometimes I am just too nice for my own good.  I feel I can be honest here. This past month has been expensive for me.  And emotionally draining.  I had to pay considerable money for the funeral.  And that took away from my other routine bills.  I have invested most of the insurance money, but saved out some to pay bills this next month, until I am financially back on a more normal track.  Once I get through these next few weeks of my regular bills, I will back to my regular bill paying schedule.  Does that make sense?

My monthly income has been cut in half, but my expenses have stayed the same.  It has taken me years to learn to manage my money well, before I met Rick, I was awful. He helped me a lot to learn to be more adult and mature about finances.  Sadly, I never learned this growing up.  I had to learn fast.

I know that once I get through this conversation, it will go better.  This friend will not just back off if I tell him I cannot afford his quote.  But I have to stop being so nice and learning that saying no will not be the end of the world.  

I will have a bit of money coming in from the sale of a small piece of land.  But that will just break me even from funeral expenses.  And I do not even know what I am doing about medical expenses!!!  His assets will not cover a fraction of those!!

I do not want this to seem as if I am whining.  I am just needing to express my inner thoughts and vent some.  Everyone here has give such good advice to others here.  Thanks.
*


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## terry123 (May 30, 2019)

What RR and Aunt Bea said. Get estimates and go to Lowes and Home Depot for recommendations for carpenters, etc.


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## Keesha (May 30, 2019)

First off you aren’t whining. 
Secondly, you ARE too nice for your own good. 
Thirdly, I couldn’t offer better info than you have  been given. 

For some reason women have been conditioned that we have to be NICE unconditionally.
Why? :shrug: 

Maria. If you should feel any type of emotion right now, it should be anger and you should have no problem telling this so called friend, that you’ve decided against it. You don’t have to give a reason. Even if he brought the price down I wouldn’t give it a second thought. 

You stand tall, look him straight in the eye and say NO you have changed your mind. Say it like you don’t wish to discuss it or negotiate the situation. 

Im with Aunt Bea here. The first few times you say no might feel odd. Every time after that the clouds will part and the angels will sing and rejoice. It can be really fun. :grin:

We will give you lessons so nobody takes advantage of you.


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## AprilSun (May 31, 2019)

Marie, you remind me of a friend of mine. She can not say no if her life depended on it. Because of this and the fact that people knows she won't say no, they take advantage of her and she lets them. Those prices sound high to me but I don't know that much about building anything today. What I do when I'm not sure about anything, is ask my brother. He will tell me right quick if the price is too much and what I need to do. Just tell your friend that's more than you can pay and then don't worry about it. It's your money and your decision. You're not whining so don't worry about that either. Like you, after my husband passed away, I was not used to being in charge of projects such as this because he did it all. I was having to ask for advice very often. It is all a learning experience so don't worry about asking for advice.


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## Geezerette (May 31, 2019)

If I would put one saying on a t shirt to describe my current old lady attitude its " I used to be nice but I got over it!" 
I Was one of those "you're too nice!" People.

Lots of good advice above. If I was in your situation I'd postpone the porch fixing altogether until all those other matters are taken care of. There are many months of good weather for outdoor work ahead & you'd have more time to research contractors & material costs.Good luck!


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## Marie5656 (May 31, 2019)

*I just got another quote for the work, for about $1500 less than what they quoted me.  So, I am now armed and ready to fight this battle.  I am going to bring out my inner bitch.*


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## Keesha (May 31, 2019)

Marie5656 said:


> *I just got another quote for the work, for about $1500 less than what they quoted me.  So, I am now armed and ready to fight this battle.  I am going to bring out my inner bitch.*


That is how you do it. 
I KNEW you had it in you. :clap:
Good for you. You might actually like this new change. :yes:


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## johndoe (May 31, 2019)

Marie5656 said:


> *I just got another quote for the work, for about $1500 less than what they quoted me.  So, I am now armed and ready to fight this battle.  I am going to bring out my inner bitch.*


Way to go Marie. I was going to suggest getting more quotes to create competition, but you beat me to it. If there is a local seniors organization where you live, hang out and ask around if anyone is satisfied with work they had done.


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## Geezerette (May 31, 2019)

aAnother suggestion: get references from each bidder to see if their customers had been happy with the work they did.


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## AZ Jim (May 31, 2019)

You can put off the job until YOU are satisfied with the whole deal.  That $3500 for three days work is sky high.


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## Aunt Bea (May 31, 2019)

Great news on the lower quote.

I would still be careful not to go with a Joe six-pack guy that will tear your porch apart and then begin needing a little more time, a little more money, etc...  Get everything in writing so there will be no misunderstandings and so you will have documentation if you end up in small claims court.

I agree with others about checking references and also checking with the owners of the park where you live to see if they have a qualified contractor that they use.

Good luck!!!


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## Marie5656 (May 31, 2019)

*I plan to get the quote in writing and to let them know my counter offer, once agreed upon is non negotiable, and will not be changed or added to.  I have also told them We will be getting ALL needed materials at once.  No multiple trips and they best have all the tools they need, or plan to buy them on their own.  I will not be buying tools they need.  Between my husband's tools and thiers, there should be no need to purchase more.

I have been told to get an itemization of labor charges.  What are they charging me to build the deck (including taking down old steps), what is charge for staining ramp, taking out bushy weeds in back of house and what is fee for cleaning out the shed and hauling off what I want gotten rid of.

No more Ms. Nice Guy.
*


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## C'est Moi (May 31, 2019)

Good for you, Marie.   You might include in the deal that you will pay a portion when they start work and the balance when they FINISH.


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## Marie5656 (May 31, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> Good for you, Marie.   You might include in the deal that you will pay a portion when they start work and the balance when they FINISH.



Had thought of that option.  But want the work actually started before I pay anything.


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## Wild1 (Jun 10, 2019)

Marie5656 said:


> *I am planning to have a small porch rebuilt on my house.  Steps and an 8x8 deck.  working with a friend of Ricks who does handy work, and helped us build the ramp on the front of the house.
> 
> Here is my delema, He showed me two quoted prices for the materials.  Lowest was about $850 which I am told is reasonable, as highest was over $1100.  I am going with them to buy the supplies, and to pay for them.  Want to assure they are not buying more than is needed.  Advocating for myself.
> 
> ...



Nice job finding another quote! That is so often the most important aspect - creating competition. (Also shows you who is innately trustworthy, and who you know you need to watch). 

I do this stuff for a living (albeit on an industrial scale) and I feel like despite not being elderly or disabled I get taken advantage of by contractors when were talking my own house and not work. Part of it at least for me too, is I don't like having strangers around! So I get really stressed when the first quote doesn't work!!

I wouldn't bother with going to the store with them. IMO that is micromanaging in the wrong areas. Have them itemize time and materials. Look up online (even if it's not the same store your local Menards/Home Depot should not be more unless he is staing mat's marked up). Look up templates for contracts online and then tailor something up for him to sign off on if you fel you need to. 

Lastly have a conversation about the quote. If you find the price is different for the lumber, make sure you are talking apples to apples and assuming the same things. Like maybe he is quoting cedar and you are looking at prices for treated pine. Maybe you are assuming direct replacement/rebuild for your current structure; maybe you just hav it on above grade blocks; well now maybe the building code says you gotta put in concrete pier footings down 60". Maybe everyone on their uncle at City Hall has to sign off on the permit, who knows. But a reputable and honest contractor will be able to answer those questions appropriately and easily without taking offense.

Lastly, make sure they are bonded/insured, and for a good amount of money. Unless this is someone you really trust. For example if tying deck into your house, if they supposed to do concrete footings buried 60" into the ground and it's a hard freeze and the guy takes a shortcut and buried them 18", well, that deck could take your whole house for a ride and go all kiddywompus on you! Not good! Or if they start don't finish, etc. 

As you can imagine a lot of the things have potential to drive up cost bigtime and the contractors still has to make money, but a lot of time it's BS, that's why you gotta question it! 

IF you did a progress payment sort of thing I would do it ONLY for materials, and only for a


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## AZ Jim (Jul 5, 2019)

I know how that living on income that was suddenly cut in half.  When I lost my wife this year and notified Social Security it only took them a couple of days to not only cut off her payment but notify me that I needed to refund to them her last payment which came shortly before her passing.


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## Marie5656 (Jul 6, 2019)

*Another day or two and it will be done    *


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## Keesha (Jul 6, 2019)

Looking good Marie. You are managing just fine. 
I’m so happy & proud of you. You’ve got this.


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## StarSong (Jul 6, 2019)

You've got to feel good about how you managed this, Marie.  Well done!


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## Marie5656 (Jul 6, 2019)

*I have been sitting out there already. If you look close, you can see my chair. I have a second chair and a small patio table I am going to put out there.  Tomorrow the guys are coming to work again.  One of them is working on painting the ramp I have out front.  I feel kind of bad, as he has been having some issues working out in the hot direct sunlight due to some medication he is on..  I suggested they wait until  late afternoon to come as the ramp will be in shade.  So they will not be out until 2 or 3 PM. 
Not sure why they did not think of that before.*


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 6, 2019)

It's looking great Marie and I'm glad you have some support from your brother and are taking charge.  Always remember, you're not being a bitch, it's you who is having the work done and it's you who is having to put up the cash.  Rick's 'friend' was taking advantage of him because he was an easy touch, it's up to you to stop the abuse now that Rick has passed on.

I'm like you, too nice to people sometimes, but I learned in my younger years that people will use you as a doormat if you let them.  As I got older, I found it much easier to say no.  If it has to do with me personally or my finances, it's not only my right but my obligation to say no if it's something that will be a disadvantage. 

 I always worked hard for my money, I did not inherit anything from rich relatives, I refuse to throw money out the window.  It is uncomfortable sometimes to tell someone no, especially a friend of the family, but it gets easier over time.  Sometimes you have to put your feelings before others, that also has to be learned and practiced.  You're doing just fine.


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## Marie5656 (Jul 7, 2019)

*Thanks, @SeaBreeze  . Yes, my brother has been a support, but he is not just writing checks willy nilly. He has helped in the past, and will in the future.  But he reminds me I need to stand on my own two feet, financially as well
The guys are really hinting about wanting the rest of the labor payment.  So, I said then finish the job!!  I told them I want the deck done and the ramp painted by Thursday, as I am having friends over for lunch, and want the place presentable.  There is still on more job in the contract, removing some overgrown brush in the back of the house.  But I said that can wait until other work is done.  I am done being nice.*


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 7, 2019)

@Marie5656 , that sounds good!  I meant that your brother is there for your emotional support through all this, that's so important especially now that you're on your own.  I admire you for handling things as well as you have, you've been thrown some curveballs for sure!  There are times for 'nice' and times for firmness, I think you got this down!


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## Marie5656 (Jul 7, 2019)

*@SeaBreeze. I get it.  I have had people just assume I have it made because of my brother.  He HAS be a great support, you are right. And he helped me negotiate all the stuff I needed to negotiate.  I still find it hard to believe it has JUST been a bit over 3 months since Rick left.  Seems like forever, I have been through so much.*


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## Getyoung (Jul 8, 2019)

It is looking great, and absolutely correct.......no pay until it is done to your agreed upon specifications!


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