# COVID-19 Vaccine math... Are my numbers wrong?



## StarSong (Aug 11, 2020)

I've spent a couple of hours this morning trying to figure out how long COVID is going to be center stage in our lives.  I've looked at vaccines, herd immunity, and coronavirus behaviors.

Here's what I've come up with.

To paraphrase T.S. Eliot, COVID-19 will almost certainly end with a whimper not a bang. It will most likely recede over a long period of time, either by vaccination (which will take many, many months in the US alone, never mind the entire planet), or when so many humans contract it that herd immunity develops (even longer), or its RNA gradually mutates into less dangerous or less contagious forms (hard to say how long that will take because it's planet-wide).
Or some combination of these.

I'll talk about the US, but presume these numbers are appropriate for most of the rest of the world.

The FDA is willing to drop its typical vaccine efficacy requirements down to 50% for a COVID vaccine, meaning a vaccine will only have to provide immunity to 50% of the people inoculated. The unlucky 50% who don't get immunity? Apparently it will be like rolling up one's sleeve for a placebo.

To be clear, they're not saying 50% of the entire population will be immune, they're saying only 50% of those who opt to take the vaccine will be.

Further whittling the odds, right now roughly half of the US population says they'll get vaccinated.  So 50% get vaccinated and 50% of those vaccines are effective.  Now we're at  25% with vaccine immunity plus perhaps another 15% who've developed immunity by already getting COVID (most undiagnosed - less than 2% of the US population has tested positive).

Problem is, those who had symptom-less COVID or were positive but tested negative, have no idea that they might have antibodies and therefore must assume they're vulnerable. And then there are those who tested positive but are concerned the iffy tests were false positives.

In addition, if the vaccine is only 50% effective, how confident can people be that their shot "took"?

People who shun the vaccines entirely will have to rely on the insufficient herd immunity of the people listed above to protect them. While obviously better than what we have now, these are still pretty lousy odds.

For comparison: seasonal flu vaccines vary from 10% - 60% effective, depending on how well the vaccine matches up with the flu virus that happens to be circulating that year. Mumps and pertussis are about 80% effective. Most other vaccines have 90% - 95% effectiveness.

From where I sit, it looks like we have a long while to go with COVID-19.

Thoughts?


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## Sunny (Aug 11, 2020)

And, to further add to the dismal outlook,

1. How do we know that antibodies confer immunity?  Are the antibodies that are naturally produced when a person actually has the disease the same as whatever goes into the vaccine?  In other words, the vaccines could work 50% of the time, and the natural antibodies not at all. If so, even those who have had the disease still need the vaccine.

2. I wonder what will happen diagnostically speaking when flu season begins. The symptoms are similar.


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## Butterfly (Aug 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> And, to further add to the dismal outlook,
> 
> 1. How do we know that antibodies confer immunity?  Are the antibodies that are naturally produced when a person actually has the disease the same as whatever goes into the vaccine?  In other words, the vaccines could work 50% of the time, and the natural antibodies not at all. If so, even those who have had the disease still need the vaccine.
> 
> 2. I wonder what will happen diagnostically speaking when flu season begins. The symptoms are similar.




As to your item #2, if I understand it correctly, there are tests that can tell the difference between influenza and covid-19.


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## Knight (Aug 11, 2020)

or its RNA gradually mutates into less dangerous or less contagious forms (hard to say how long that will take because it's planet-wide).
Don't like gloom & doom but since there are other virus under the same category

 mutate to a more lethal virus.


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## gennie (Aug 11, 2020)

And if you like to read books that can scare the bejesus out of you, look for "Stations Eleven" by Emily St John Mandel. 

 It's a fictionalized account of a world-wide fast spreading pandemic called the Georgia Viirus and how a small group of people lived through it.

I had to look for publish date as I first thought someone fast with words had scarfed up the current virus and decided to make a buck on it.  Not so.  Publish date Sep. 2014.


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## StarSong (Aug 11, 2020)

@gennie, non-fiction is plenty scary for me.  Rightn now I'm reading _Deadliest Enemy_ by Micahel T. Osterholm, a leading epidemiologist.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 11, 2020)

Covid-19 is here to stay, just like the rest of the viruses (colds, flu, etc.)   Any vaccine will have a percentage effectiveness just like the current flu vaccine.   (I don't take flu shots and I will not be taking the Covid-19 vaccine.)

I am weary of all this hoopla and honestly am beginning to wonder why the panic started in the first place.   Politics???


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## StarSong (Aug 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Covid-19 is here to stay, just like the rest of the viruses (colds, flu, etc.)   Any vaccine will have a percentage effectiveness just like the current flu vaccine.   (I don't take flu shots and I will not be taking the Covid-19 vaccine.)
> 
> I am weary of all this hoopla and honestly am beginning to wonder why the panic started in the first place.  I* have read that Covid-19 deaths have yet to reach the H1N1 numbers*, but we didn't bring down the world economy back then. Politics???



Under 14,000 US deaths from H1N1 in a full year and 165,000 from COVID-19 in six months.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html


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## Keesha (Aug 11, 2020)

Oh my head.  lol


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## win231 (Aug 11, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> As to your item #2, if I understand it correctly, there are tests that can tell the difference between influenza and covid-19.


No, they can't.  Coronavirus is a _group _of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses.  That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless.  Almost all colds are viruses; that's why there is no cure for the common cold.  A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.
Ever wonder why people (like Ohio's Governor, for example) tested positive for Covid, then later tested negative?
Same with that actor - Nick Cordero.


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## Treacle (Aug 11, 2020)

Just to add to the   

A friend came to visit yesterday (masks, social distancing) and she said her doctor friend says the virus has mutated and it's here for the long haul.

BBC news notes that Putin  has said that a vaccine has approval and mass vaccination will begin in October. This, after 2months of testing on humans. He said his daughter had had the vaccine  (ooh I think I see pigs flying)!!!!!

An 'action' group calling themselves StandUpX were outside a store (South London) urging customers( and probably intimidating them) to remove the facial coverings because they are 'bad for you'

It has been suggested by scientists that secondary school children ( 11-16)can transmit as easily as adults.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Under 14,000 US deaths from H1N1 in a full year and 165,000 from COVID-19 in six months.
> https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html


The reason I edited my post was because I don't remember where I read it and I don't want to get into a "QUOTE YOUR SOURCE!!!" argument.   I'll just say that no one will convince me that ANY "numbers" are anywhere nearly accurate, no matter the source.


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## MarciKS (Aug 11, 2020)

@StarSong they're not even sure the vaccine will work. Mainly cuz they rushed it. This morning they said Russia is going ahead with vaccines even though they haven't tested them properly. So there's that. Have a good afternoon!

Forgot to add this info was from the Huffington post.


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## Treacle (Aug 11, 2020)

@C'est Moi 

There is an expression which you probably know but I don't know where it originated from Lies, Damned lies and Statistics - Just saying  ☺


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## StarSong (Aug 11, 2020)

win231 said:


> No, they can't.  Coronavirus is a _group _of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses.  That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless.  Almost all colds are viruses; that's why there is no cure for the common cold.  *A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.*
> Ever wonder why people (like Ohio's Governor, for example) tested positive for Covid, then later tested negative?
> Same with that actor - Nick Cordero.


You've written this before but haven't cited any credible sources. I've yet to hear of it anywhere but on your posts. Not saying you're incorrect, only that I can't verify it anywhere.

Influenza is not a corona virus. Whole different virus.
The key difference between coronavirus and influenza is that *coronavirus is positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus* that causes illnesses ranging from common cold and pneumonia  to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) *while influenza virus is a negative-sense single-stranded RNA virus* that causes seasonal flu epidemics each year.

Yeah, our testing tends to be less than accurate and the rapid tests are especially so. Doesn't make this a nonexistent threat. It only means this is one more area in which the US government has failed its people.


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## Treacle (Aug 11, 2020)

@MarciKS  see #11 - supports what you have written


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## Sunny (Aug 11, 2020)

> No, they can't.  Coronavirus is a _group _of viruses that also cause the common cold as well as flu & other illnesses.  That's what makes all these "Positive" cases meaningless.  Almost all colds are viruses; that's
> why there is no cure for the common cold.  A positive test means someone had a cold or any virus at one time, which is just about everybody.



Win, why do you keep repeating such complete and utter nonsense? It would almost be funny if it weren't so potentially dangerous, if anyone actually believed you.

Starsong addressed some of the areas where you are totally wrong... except she is more polite about it than I am. 

True, almost all colds are viruses. So what does that prove?  It doesn't mean the common cold virus is the same one that the coronavirus is.  That's like saying all dogs are animals; therefore, all animals are dogs.

All I know about the test for coronavirus is what I read in the papers and hear on the news, the same as pretty much everybody else except the professionals. But even I know that the test doesn't tell you whether you've ever had a cold or any virus at any time in your life!  If that were true, literally everyone would test positive!

Spouting this kind of nonsense is an insult to our intelligence! Do you really believe it yourself, or are you playing some little game with us?


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## win231 (Aug 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Win, why do you keep repeating such complete and utter nonsense? It would almost be funny if it weren't so potentially dangerous, if anyone actually believed you.
> 
> Starsong addressed some of the areas where you are totally wrong... except she is more polite about it than I am.
> 
> ...


No one can insult your intelligence.
Something has to exist before it can be insulted.


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## MarciKS (Aug 11, 2020)

Sunny you could always put him on ignore. That's what I did.


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## win231 (Aug 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Sunny you could always put him on ignore. That's what I did.


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## Keesha (Aug 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> You've written this before but haven't cited any credible sources. I've yet to hear of it anywhere but on your posts. Not saying you're incorrect, only that I can't verify it anywhere.
> 
> Influenza is not a corona virus. Whole different virus.
> The key difference between coronavirus and influenza is that *coronavirus is positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus* that causes illnesses ranging from common cold and pneumonia  to severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) *while influenza virus is a negative-sense single-stranded RNA virus* that causes seasonal flu epidemics each year.
> ...


This is some great info Starsong which I had no idea about. Unfortunately there’s too much math in this thread for me. My least favourite subject


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## win231 (Aug 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Sunny you could always put him on ignore. That's what I did.


Ooooo.......the pain.  The hurt.  You'll never know............


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## fmdog44 (Aug 11, 2020)

This virus is just another flu some say. Right now 20,126,452 cases and 737,285 dead in the world. In The U.S. 5,098,452 cases with 737,285 dead.


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## MarciKS (Aug 11, 2020)

It's just so sad that things have come to this all over masks & pride. I simply don't understand what is so hard about following a few simple regulations to help us get rid of something that has the potential to kill all of us eventually. I don't understand how people can be so selfish & so hateful.


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## C'est Moi (Aug 11, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> This virus is just another flu some say. Right now 20,126,452 cases and 737,285 dead in the world. In The U.S. 5,098,452 cases with 737,285 dead.


So the USA has all the deaths in the world??


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## StarSong (Aug 12, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> So the USA has all the deaths in the world??


US deaths are somewhere above 165,000 right now.  @fmdog44 picked up the the wrong number for US deaths.


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2020)

For those who suggest that I use the "ignore" feature, I never put anybody on ignore. If anyone is making up complete nonsense about a life-threatening subject like this, I want to know about it. Not answering it just leaves the field open for more nonsense, and where does that end?

And also, by my nature, I am interested in scientific findings, and the evolution of knowledge.  Remaining silent to utter claptrap just leaves the field open to anyone making stuff up, or quoting very "dubious" authorities.  Or habitually posting sneering insults about hightly respected professionals who are knocking themselves out to try to solve a devastating health crisis. Anyone constantly doing that is _inviting_ others to answer.

However, I do have my own mental "ignore" button, which sometimes gets triggered. In other words, I just skip over some of the entries at times, but I like to be in control of what I do or do not read.  (I know that at times, some of these extreme points of view are deliberately being planted as "bait." So what?  They still need to be answered.)


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> So the USA has all the deaths in the world??



Copied and pasted from the CNN website (I don't know how to change the font size):
*The US has 4% of the world's population but 25% of its coronavirus cases.*


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> For those who suggest that I use the "ignore" feature, I never put anybody on ignore. If anyone is making up complete nonsense about a life-threatening subject like this, I want to know about it. Not answering it just leaves the field open for more nonsense, and where does that end?
> 
> And also, by my nature, I am interested in scientific findings, and the evolution of knowledge.  Remaining silent to utter claptrap just leaves the field open to anyone making stuff up, or quoting very "dubious" authorities.  Or habitually posting sneering insults about hightly respected professionals who are knocking themselves out to try to solve a devastating health crisis. Anyone constantly doing that is _inviting_ others to answer.
> 
> However, I do have my own mental "ignore" button, which sometimes gets triggered. In other words, I just skip over some of the entries at times, but I like to be in control of what I do or do not read.  (I know that at times, some of these extreme points of view are deliberately being planted as "bait." So what?  They still need to be answered.)


I only put people on ignore when I get overly frustrated and then take then off after I’ve regained my mind with one exception.  Win asked me to put him on ignore and I refused.  I like what he has to say sometimes. And, I’m sorry, but his insults are sometimes funny and witty.

Anyway, he makes things interesting as do others on the forum.  There are people who do not appreciate my comments and opinions as well.  As sunny says, just read them and move on; or don’t read them and move on.  It’s not like we live next door to each other.


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Copied and pasted from the CNN website (I don't know how to change the font size):
> *The US has 4% of the world's population but 25% of its coronavirus cases.*


That’s truly horrible statistics.
Speaking of worry, I worry for the U.S.
There’s so much tragedy happened lately


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## 911 (Aug 12, 2020)

Keesha said:


> That’s truly horrible statistics.
> Speaking of worry, I worry for the U.S.
> There’s so much tragedy happened lately


How do we know this to be true? Yes, we have 4% of the world’s population, but not everyone in the U.S. has been tested, so how do we know that we have 25% of the cases?


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2020)

911 said:


> How do we know this to be true? Yes, we have 4% of the world’s population, but not everyone in the U.S. has been tested, so how do we know that we have 25% of the cases?


We don’t . I didn’t write it. All I did was offer empathy if I was.


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## win231 (Aug 12, 2020)

911 said:


> How do we know this to be true? Yes, we have 4% of the world’s population, but not everyone in the U.S. has been tested, so how do we know that we have 25% of the cases?


 Because they'd never tell us anything that wasn't true.  That would be dishonest.  
And I want you to listen to me because I'm going to say this just once:  "I did _not_...._have_....._sex_....with that woman."


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## 911 (Aug 12, 2020)

win231 said:


> Because they'd never tell us anything that wasn't true.  That would be dishonest.
> And I want you to listen to me because I'm going to say this just once:  "I did _not_...._have_....._sex_....with that woman."


OK, I believe you. I have always been gullible.


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 12, 2020)

win231 said:


> Because they'd never tell us anything that wasn't true.  That would be dishonest.
> And I want you to listen to me because I'm going to say this just once:  "I did _not_...._have_....._sex_....with that woman."


I believe you too win, but what was the name of the woman you did not have sex with and is there a video?


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## C'est Moi (Aug 12, 2020)

StarSong said:


> US deaths are somewhere above 165,000 right now.  @fmdog44 *picked up the the wrong number for US deaths.*


That was precisely my point.   

I remain unconvinced that any of the reported "statistics" are valid.


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## peramangkelder (Aug 12, 2020)

We would need approx. 8 Billion doses of Covid 19 vaccine worldwide to vaccinate every man, woman and child


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 12, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> We would need approx. 8 Billion doses of Covid 19 vaccine worldwide to vaccinate every man, woman and child


Well, my dose will be available for a long time.  I am not in a rush.


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## win231 (Aug 12, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I believe you too win, but what was the name of the woman you did not have sex with and is there a video?


Well, since she's not a politician, it's probably OK to say her name - Monica Lewinsky.  No video, but she was in a video when she became a spokesperson for Weight Watchers.
She said, "I lost 40 lbs. on Weight Watchers.  Now, I can fit under a desk again."


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2020)

911 said:


> How do we know this to be true? Yes, we have 4% of the world’s population, but not everyone in the U.S. has been tested, so how do we know that we have 25% of the cases?



911, the 25% statistic is based on the number of cases that are known about so far. It's at least 25% of the world total, could be higher as the testing continues. But of course these figures are approximate. Every person on earth has not been tested, and never will.

It you google "Number of coronavirus cases worldwide," you will see a chart that tells you that the current number worldwide is 20.4.  The current U.S. number is 5.26.  In other words, approximately 25%.


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## squatting dog (Aug 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Win, why do you keep repeating such complete and utter nonsense? It would almost be funny if it weren't so potentially dangerous, if anyone actually believed you.
> 
> Starsong addressed some of the areas where you are totally wrong... except she is more polite about it than I am.
> 
> ...



 Straight from the John Hopkins site............. Interesting read when you scroll through it entirely.
*Differential diagnosis*


COVID-19 cannot be easily distinguished from other causes of a viral respiratory infection such as influenza, RSV, other respiratory viruses or community-acquired pneumonia based only on clinical grounds.
Also, consider pulmonary embolus, acute myocardial infection, chest crisis (sickle cell disease), etc.
Full page here.
https://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopki.../540747/all/Coronavirus_COVID_19__SARS_CoV_2_


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## squatting dog (Aug 13, 2020)

Perhaps the most egregious misrepresentation of reality is the media’s conflating a positive test result with the actual disease, COVID-19. These tests only test for the virus directly (PCR tests) or antibodies to the virus. COVID-19 is NOT a positive test; it is a clinical diagnosis of someone infected with SARS-COV-2 exhibiting severe respiratory illness characterized by fever, coughing and shortness of breath.

The media is intentionally confusing a positive test result with COVID-19 to deliberately mislead the public into believing the disease is far more serious than it is. They know better but consciously choose this despicable practice. A recent example would be CNN’s article, “Florida Has More COVID-19 Than Most Countries in the World.”4

They refer to the positive test as a “case.” This is beyond stretching reality to suit their nefarious purposes. A case is NOT a positive test result but, rather, a person that has a positive test result and is seriously ill. But you would never know it by reading their article.

Further down in their fear-mongering article is a subhead, “Florida Has Surpassed Italy in COVID-19 Cases, Too.” But at the very end of the article they finally admit the truth: Even though Florida surpassed Italy in “cases,” they had nearly 90% FEWER deaths — the metric that really counts, unless your goal is to perpetuate needless fear into the population.


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## StarSong (Aug 13, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> We would need approx. 8 Billion doses of Covid 19 vaccine worldwide to vaccinate every man, woman and child


And that's presuming each person needs only one dose rather than a series.


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## MarciKS (Aug 13, 2020)

*And in another thread this morning they're already discussing the face that we may need one every few months. *


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## StarSong (Aug 13, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Straight from the John Hopkins site............. Interesting read when you scroll through it entirely.
> *Differential diagnosis*
> 
> *COVID-19 cannot be easily distinguished from other causes of a viral respiratory infection such as influenza, RSV, other respiratory viruses or community-acquired pneumonia based only on clinical grounds.*
> ...


Precisely. Some of the symptoms are similar, which is why "clinical grounds" (observed) are insufficient.
It doesn't state that a positive COVID laboratory test could instead be showing flu, RSV, pneumonia, etc.


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## Keesha (Aug 13, 2020)

911 said:


> How do we know this to be true? Yes, we have 4% of the world’s population, but not everyone in the U.S. has been tested, so how do we know that we have 25% of the cases?





Sunny said:


> 911, the 25% statistic is based on the number of cases that are known about so far. It's at least 25% of the world total, could be higher as the testing continues. But of course these figures are approximate. Every person on earth has not been tested, and never will.
> 
> It you google "Number of coronavirus cases worldwide," you will see a chart that tells you that the current number worldwide is 20.4.  The current U.S. number is 5.26.  In other words, approximately 25%.


There you go @911. Get the answer from the person who originally posted it.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 15, 2020)

There seems to little uniformity for being tested. So unless any statistic is put in proper context it's basically meaningless. That includes who and when those are tested. Some places offer testing to ever wants it others have to be an essential worker or ill.

Personally I the virus is a look more prevelent than most think as are many other diseases, viruses etc. Testing is only validation not a full count.


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## win231 (Aug 15, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Perhaps the most egregious misrepresentation of reality is the media’s conflating a positive test result with the actual disease, COVID-19. These tests only test for the virus directly (PCR tests) or antibodies to the virus. COVID-19 is NOT a positive test; it is a clinical diagnosis of someone infected with SARS-COV-2 exhibiting severe respiratory illness characterized by fever, coughing and shortness of breath.
> 
> The media is intentionally confusing a positive test result with COVID-19 to deliberately mislead the public into believing the disease is far more serious than it is. They know better but consciously choose this despicable practice. A recent example would be CNN’s article, “Florida Has More COVID-19 Than Most Countries in the World.”4
> 
> ...



    Encouraging to read a post from a thinking person instead of a programmed robot.


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## gennie (Aug 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> Because they'd never tell us anything that wasn't true.  That would be dishonest.
> And I want you to listen to me because I'm going to say this just once:  "I did _not_...._have_....._sex_....with that woman."


Name me a man - any man - who will not lie about an extramarital affair.  It is coded into the male DNA.


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## hellomimi (Aug 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> No one can insult your intelligence.
> Something has to exist before it can be insulted.


Quote of the day from SF bad boy! 
Hey! that wasn't necessary


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## hellomimi (Aug 15, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I only put people on ignore when I get overly frustrated and then take then off after I’ve regained my mind with one exception.  Win asked me to put him on ignore and I refused.  I like what he has to say sometimes. And, I’m sorry, but his insults are sometimes funny and witty.
> 
> Anyway, he makes things interesting as do others on the forum.  There are people who do not appreciate my comments and opinions as well.  As sunny says, just read them and move on; or don’t read them and move on.  It’s not like we live next door to each other.


I appreciate your level headed views @Aneeda. You're right, we don't have to like each other all the time, but the way we react to posts online reveal our personalities. It is who we are. Let's live n let live.

P.S. Your jellybean story remains my favorite post to this date. ☺


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## win231 (Aug 15, 2020)

hellomimi said:


> Quote of the day from SF bad boy!
> Hey! that wasn't necessary


Thanks for the compliment.
And, yes, it _was_ necessary.  To _get _respect, you have to _give_ respect - whether or not you agree with someone.


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## win231 (Aug 15, 2020)

gennie said:


> Name me a man - any man - who will not lie about an extramarital affair.  It is coded into the male DNA.


Uh.....yeah.  Of course women _never _lie about an extramarital affair.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

C'est Moi said:


> I am weary of all this hoopla and honestly am beginning to wonder why the panic started in the first place. Politics???


How about M O N E Y ?   The latest I saw on the news was many trillions of dollars - enough to buy most of the governments/ officials/ politicians in the world easily.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Sunny said:


> And also, by my nature, I am interested in scientific findings


This will be seen I guess..  sooner or later.
For instance,   did you see the scientific findings of the virologists - you know the scientists/doctors who specialize in viruses ?   
Or the micro-biologists ?    Worldwide, btw.
Those who by the scientific methods that have been adopted and used for decades or longer,  who showed that the "virus theory" has been scientifically debunked/ proven wrong ?   
Or,  without those facts that have been published for years,  
do you only take an interest in what is 'politically correct' ,  thus risking a great deal for what might be the world's biggest scandal/ coverup ?


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Knight said:


> or its RNA gradually mutates into less dangerous or less contagious forms (hard to say how long that will take because it's planet-wide).
> Don't like gloom & doom but since there are other virus under the same category
> 
> mutate to a more lethal virus.


On a much happier and hopeful note,   if it is still available online,  see if it's possible to read the PDF "Dismantling the Virus Theory"  by doctors/scientists including microscopic photographs of macro-phages, etc, showing what is actually happening in the cells and so forth.


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## Blessed (Jun 9, 2022)

You only you, can review, the information that is available.  You and only you can decide what is the action you  need to take.  When it comes down to it is your choice.  I don' see it as a reason to argue.  Just do what you think is best for you.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Yes, of course.   And when life-saving information is available readily,  freely for all practical and pertinent purposes, to do and be aware of instead of very expensive much more dangerous and erroneous claims from those who are profiting greatly ,  then what ?    It is best for everyone to seek and learn and know the truth in life experientially,  to be and to remain healthy naturally,  and not to be tricked into choosing very harmful endeavors, right ?


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## Blessed (Jun 9, 2022)

I don't worry about what others do. It is my responsibity to be informed what is right for me.  I don't feel the need to advise what others should do because that is their decision to make.  We all have our choices, I would never make a descion based on anything I heard on an internet forum. I don't think you would, is that not true for you? I like to read and learn from others but I don't think of those things of the absolute truth.   You have to check all information from all the information relayed from the medical arena.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

And if the medical arena is, as is the case,  the foxes guarding the hen house ? 
Unless those smaller groups of doctors are included in the 'medical arena' who do tell the truth as much as they are able/ allowed to,  then good - test, test, test.

Yes, do not trust anything nor anyone on the internet UNTIL after you have verified, verified, verified/ tested and proven something. 

Trusting those who have misled many people is not a good idea - 

The so-called medical arena is just that -  officially and for the most part very unreliable, for half a century or more.  I learned this not from any internet source, or any book,  but from them themselves,  from their own mouths,  in their own words.
Not what anyone published or said about them.  Ask them, as many as might answer at all,  if they believe it is okay to conceal the proven cures.  When I did, they immediately answered yes.   When asked why,  they all , exactly the same no matter where they came from in the usa,  answered "because we cannot patent it".

The honest truthful doctors who actually heal or healed people all along for the last century often were or get silenced, blacklisted, or worse.  Anyone can believe them if they choose to, but it doesn't help to believe someone after it has been shown that they were not truthful so often. Be becoming informed ,  find out what doctors are and have a track history of being truthful and honest,  and which ones are just in it for the money.  
Look up , for example, the exposes on the fda and the cdc.   Think they tell the truth ? Find out. Find out if possible from their own documents/ publications.


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