# Social Conditioning: The Enemy of Relationships



## SifuPhil

We all are subjected, to a greater or lesser degree, to social conditioning from the moment we are born. It is maintained and re-enforced as we grow older through the schools, the corporate world and the media that we grow to depend upon. I believe that rigid adherence to this conditioning results in stunted emotional growth, leading to many if not all of our relationship problems.

​
Let me 'splain...

*The Carrot and The Stick*

We're taught that our lives should follow a certain narrowly-defined path in order to be “successful”. Early on, we're told to “be good” and “pay attention” in school. If we do, we get warm strokes from our teachers and parents.

But if we don't?

If we don't follow their rules, we're given labels - “unfocused”, “scattered”, “disruptive”, “ADHD”. We're lectured that we won't grow up to be firemen and ballerinas if we don't pay attention and follow the rules. We have to be “good little boys and girls”.

This conditioning continues throughout elementary, middle and high school and on into college. Most colleges now are not seats of higher learning - they don't give students a well-rounded general education to prepare them for life or instill in them an appreciation for the finer arts. Instead, they have become job-preparation services - students as far back as middle school are being lectured about choosing their college and their life-path. All college does in this situation is give the finishing control commands to those eager young minds, in preparation for their corporate dronedom.

*Failures?*

And yes, there will be those who don't take to the college experience - once again, they're often viewed by society as “failures”. Maybe they just saw the situation from a fresh perspective, a more wide-ranging, all-encompassing perspective and decided to get off the train before it arrived at its final destination.

Good for them.

The corporate world merely makes reality out of the theory that was brainwashed into the students in college. They're told they have to be team players, keep their noses to the grindstone, sacrifice constantly now for the future. They have to bear their suffering like good troupers, keep a stiff upper-lip and take one for the team.

Well, the recent spate of layoffs, firings and “down-sizings” puts the lie to that approach. What did all of their suffering and dedication bring them but heartache, fear and stress? They made the mistake of buying into the Machine - of believing what the radio and cable TV and Internet told them to believe. They chased the dragon, thinking that materialistic achievements were the only worthwhile scorecards available. They were good little boys and girls, and what was their reward?

*The Rewards*

They lost their jobs, got into fights with their spouses, developed sarcastic, pessimistic outlooks on life, probably started developing stress-related habits and medical conditions, kicked their dogs, etc. Hardly an enviable reward for all their goodness.

In the realm of interpersonal relationships, this social conditioning is especially limiting to spiritual and emotional growth and well-being. We're taught to associate only with those at an equal social level or higher; we turn a blind eye to anyone below our “stations” in life. Our perspectives were fitted with collar and chain, and then we wonder why we didn't see what was really important in life.


​
Our choice of relationship partners is a direct result of the sum total of all of our social conditioning. Little wonder that the divorce rates are so high, that both physical and mental abuse are so rampant, and that we are stuck on a merry-go-round that is going faster and faster with no more rings to grab. We think we know the problem, because it's been diagnosed for us by the media. Our teeth aren't white enough, our clothes aren't fashionable enough, our man-parts aren't stiff enough. So we attempt to buy our way out of our problems, thus remaining firmly entrenched in the vicious cycle.

Only a few lucky souls have the ability to step back, take a deep breath and see the situation from a more universal perspective. They realize that material toys don't really matter; that we don't need to have the latest, greatest vehicle to be happy; that we don't really need that trophy wife or young stud companion just for the sake of appearances. They make the spiritual leap into the realization that everyone, everywhere is connected; that we don't so much make new acquaintances as renew old ones that we didn't even know existed.

Rare indeed is the individual who can escape the shackles of social conditioning. Rarer still is the individual who doesn't feel at least some pangs of loss, emptiness and apathy once they do. But eventually, your life becomes a much more sane and comfortable affair. You'll look into your past and wonder how you ever survived, and you'll enter into new relationships a more balanced, self-contained, phobia-free person.


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## Diwundrin

I agree that we're creatures of the 'social machine.'  In some primitive form or other we always were.  Just about every creature above reptile is.  It is a necessary prerequisite to produce the protocols to which we attach acceptable behaviour.

  It forms the basis that prevents each creature wiping out everything else it can before it's taken down itself or had the chance to breed.  It's the machinery of protocol that prevents us being sharks.

The 'machine' must exist, but it is our level of personal adherence, and ever growing reliance on it that seems to be the problem.

Over millenia it's design has been tweaked, tinkered with, and changed to suit the desired outcome of the mechanic.
Many of the changes appear to be shiny new improvements and we attach ourselves ever closer to the perceived benefits without realising that the new innovation is just a fancier nozzle on the power enhanced vaccuum cleaner that is designed to suck us in faster. 

Instead of it being a lighthouse to give orientation  to steer our lives by, we've all tied ourselves to it by shorter and shorter moorings.  We've allowed it to become the centre and reason for our lives.  We are living to serve it, instead of using it to serve us.

Where I diverge in opinion is with early education.  I'll put it in my usual convoluted terms.   

To escape the machine we must know how it works.  To learn how it works we must learn as much about it as we can. All things we learn  pertain in some part to keeping it running.  From maths to history it's all about human interaction with the machine of civilization.  To understand fully how it works on us we need to be able to see the whole picture, the blueprints!
No kid who refused to learn what they didn't like ever came out with a more 'enlightened' attitude to life.  They come out dolo's, cult leaders, thugs or junkies. That's how the machine works!  Fighting it too early in life is self defeating.

 The ones who do escape it are those who look deeper into the lessons, put them together in the right pattern and gain an understanding of how and WHY it works on us, and use their knowledge to further their own futures.  

I never made a million 'cos I wasn't a good li'l girl, I spent half my school hours standing at the headmistress' door!  I left my real education way too late in life.  If I'd put half the brainpower into studying that I spent on devious schemes to beat City Hall I might have made a better pathway in life, but then who knows?  Personality is it's own handicap too.  That's another point that sinks the theories.  

One size will never fit all in the brains department.  Not just IQ is involved, but basic personalities.  A broad curriculum is all we can do to teach masses of children to the same basic starting level.  What they can do with what they've learned will differ from child to child.

To take a kid who is a latent math wizz from school and home school him/her in intensive sustainable hydroponic farming to suit the goals of a 'spiritually enlightened' parent is not only a waste of grey matter but a cruel fate for the child.

Just as cruel as forcing a dreamer to be a Dr or worse, Lawyer, to suit the status of the parents.  Humanity mightn't benefit much from the majority of dreamers,  but that's preferable to turning out embittered vengeful professionals on the unsuspecting public.

I saw a Maths Professor vehemently urging more maths time for every student. They must be forced to learn maths at costs.  It's crucual to their futures.  ... Rubbish...  That man would still be trying to teach me maths, not everyone is wired for it.  ... and who wants to live in a world full of number crunchers??

I agree that the curriculum could tiedied up.  Too much 'social study' time is wasted. It's too easily turned into the dogma of the day to suit the agenda of whatever and whoever is in charge.  Kids come out of high school unable to string a sentence together longer than a Twit limit but have their heads full of junk science and opinions on how the world should be run gleaned from overenthused teachers and great minds like pop singers. 
 Forget that crap and teach them language skills so they can impart any ideas they do have in easily understood terms to others, (and maths  :yuk  and most importantly, does any teacher these days teach a child how to learn?  Google I guess, but not just the answers, do they learn how to find the reasons for the answers? siiiiigh.

I'm all for the old aptitude tests they used to do here when I was still in school.  But unless different education pathways to follow the aptitude can be offered to polish each child's talent there is little point.  There simply isn't enough money to go round for running specialist subject schools.  It's a logistical nightmare.

 They shouldn't be for what a child 'wants' to be so much as what they are suited to be become.  But when is that evident?  At what age is it too soon, or too late?  My 'aptitudes' were almost equally Science and Journalism.  I did neither, I wasn't smart enough or pushy enough.  But I've always retained an interest in both so it wasn't too far off the mark just not attainable.  We're not all winners despite all the best intentions of 'equality.'  

Sure it's all very fine to exhibit a free thinking rebellion, but at what cost to self and to others who actually do want to learn how to beat the machine from the inside, and not just thrash it with a stick?

How much leeway should a disruptive 'free thinker' be given?  Who chooses to let them sink the aspirations of others in the class who are interested in learning something?  Who has the most 'rights?'   
Not all of those kids are incipient philosophers, most of them are just plain sociopaths who don't give a hoot about anything or anybody else.  Is every teacher expected to psychoanalyze and adjudicate the best treatment for each one?

I was allowed to rebel at leisure  without disruption to others, by being turfed out into the corridor and left to stand there and think up ways of getting chucked out again in future.  That was great plan looking back on it... not. layful:

So, it's fine to distance ourselves from the machinery of society as much as we can, but none can live totally without contact with it in some form.   Also the further we live from it the more cut off from any benefit it does bestow we become.  It may work well for some who are fit to enjoy the 'freedom' but eventually we find we need to crawl back into it's shelter to survive at all.  (dammit.)

Those rich bastards that everyone hates seem to be the resident mechanics of the 'social machine' now. 
 Yet they all learned from the same curriculum that we did.  They just used their education better to enable them to drive the damned thing, instead of feeding it, like the rest of us, with Twitter trends and McMansion mortgages.

Their 'personalities' drove them to succeed at something most of us never even thought to try.  Why aren't we all millionaires?  Because we didn't really ever want to be, just as most of us don't espouse the 'survivalist' existence in a bark hut in the wilderness to satisfy a need to 'live off the grid'.   Hell, there's no TV off the grid! :laugh:


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## Happyflowerlady

I think there has to be more to having a meaningful relationship with the people we have in our lives , than just how we were programmed as a child, at least to some extent.  There are people who are happily successful in both their life, and their work, as well as in their personal relationships. 
And there are ones who only care about success and having more money, and these are the ones who haven't found the "connection" you mentioned, Sifu.

I am trying to reflect back on my own life and upbringing, and I don't remember ever being told that I needed to become successful, or have trendy things. My folks had old cars, and even though my dad had a steady job as a lineman, we lived a very modest lifestyle. 
I was preached to, certainly, that I needed to be respectful to adults, behave at home, and in school or other public places. I was taught that caring about other people was the first importance in life, and this was demonstrated constantly by both my mother and my father, in the way they lived their lives.  

Daddy was often gone for days, fixing power lines, so people could have their lights back on, and came home exhausted and hungry; but never complaining, just glad that he had done his job.
Mom had rentals, and it seemed like there was always someone needing help, and she did her best to help these people. She kept money in her Bible for when someone needed financial help, and when she couldn't help the person, she would find someone that could.

I was a reader, didn't watch tv, and was pretty much a loner ; so I missed all of the social-status stuff from tv and school.
There were the rewards for good behavior that you talked about, and I did try to learn everything in school, but math was certainly not one of my good subjects either.

I think it might have been better if I had been more motivated for success in life, at least to some extent. Living at the bottom of the ladder is not much fun either, but still, I would not have wanted success, if it came at another person's expense.

So, somewhere in there, must be the middle ground, where we can learn from our early social programming, have at least a moderately successful life; without losing sight of the people, while looking at the glitz and gadgets.


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## SifuPhil

Diwundrin said:


> The 'machine' must exist, but it is our level of personal adherence, and ever growing reliance on it that seems to be the problem.



But the _form_ that it takes is, or should be, variable. The blueprint can remain the same but the methods of construction can differ. 



> Where I diverge in opinion is with early education.  I'll put it in my usual convoluted terms.



But they're such _wonderful_ terms ... 



> The ones who do escape it are those who look deeper into the lessons, put them together in the right pattern and gain an understanding of how and WHY it works on us, and use their knowledge to further their own futures.



It's tough to take advantage of something that you're not aware exists. 



> I never made a million 'cos I wasn't a good li'l girl, I spent half my school hours standing at the headmistress' door!  I left my real education way too late in life.  If I'd put half the brainpower into studying that I spent on devious schemes to beat City Hall I might have made a better pathway in life, but then who knows?  Personality is it's own handicap too.  That's another point that sinks the theories.



I think there are two separate things going on in early education. You have the surface studies, the math, science, etc. All very above-board. 

But then you have the sub-text, the deadly rolling of he waves beneath the surface. That's where the brainwashing resides. It's the Devil, in Prada.



> I saw a Maths Professor vehemently urging more maths time for every student. They must be forced to learn maths at costs.  It's crucual to their futures.  ... Rubbish...  That man would still be trying to teach me maths, not everyone is wired for it.  ... and who wants to live in a world full of number crunchers??



Well, I push martial arts on everyone I meet with a zeal that is downright evangelical. Doesn't mean everyone is suited for it - in fact, very few are. But that doesn't stop me from trying. 



> Forget that crap and teach them language skills so they can impart any ideas they do have in easily understood terms to others, (and maths  :yuk  and most importantly, does any teacher these days teach a child how to learn?  Google I guess, but not just the answers, do they learn how to find the reasons for the answers? siiiiigh.



I agree - that's one huge hole in the typical education nowadays - critical thinking. That's in large part what I'm getting at here. We're taught facts and figures (at least, the facts and figures that are currently popular and accepted, such as Chris Columbus being a freakin' hero) but we're not taught what to DO with them. 



> I'm all for the old aptitude tests they used to do here when I was still in school.  But unless different education pathways to follow the aptitude can be offered to polish each child's talent there is little point.  There simply isn't enough money to go round for running specialist subject schools.  It's a logistical nightmare.
> 
> They shouldn't be for what a child 'wants' to be so much as what they are suited to be become.  But when is that evident?  At what age is it too soon, or too late?  My 'aptitudes' were almost equally Science and Journalism.  I did neither, I wasn't smart enough or pushy enough.  But I've always retained an interest in both so it wasn't too far off the mark just not attainable.  We're not all winners despite all the best intentions of 'equality.'



"Aptitude" is another of those dangerous words - it can mean many things to many people. Just because you display an aptitude for something, an ability, it doesn't necessarily follow that you should DO that thing. I might have displayed a certain knack for stomping on earthworms as a child - doesn't mean the teachers should encourage me to go pro. 

Yet that is what they all too often do. 

I was told from an early age that I should be a scientist. I listened to "them" and even developed a love of science, but by the time I was graduating from high school - 12 years worth of indoctrination - I discovered that I didn't want to do it as a living. They hadn't taken into account my desires, my _changing_ desires as I grew into adulthood - instead they stuck me in a box and set me on the path that THEY thought I should follow. I was locked-in, and it took a lot of worry and uncertainty on my part to break out.



> Sure it's all very fine to exhibit a free thinking rebellion, but at what cost to self and to others who actually do want to learn how to beat the machine from the inside, and not just thrash it with a stick?



You can _understand_ a thing, and therefore it's overthrow, without becoming a _part_ of that thing. That's what I think the revolution should teach our kids. 




> So, it's fine to distance ourselves from the machinery of society as much as we can, but none can live totally without contact with it in some form.   Also the further we live from it the more cut off from any benefit it does bestow we become.  It may work well for some who are fit to enjoy the 'freedom' but eventually we find we need to crawl back into it's shelter to survive at all.  (dammit.)



Not always. I think it depends upon what kind of "stuff" you're made of. That's another thing that needs to be taught - self-reliance and self-determination, but then that would be going against The Machine. We aren't supposed to be capable of independent thought - we're supposed to be engaged in that lock-step toward what society as a whole deems "successful". 



> Those rich bastards that everyone hates seem to be the resident mechanics of the 'social machine' now.
> Yet they all learned from the same curriculum that we did.  They just used their education better to enable them to drive the damned thing, instead of feeding it, like the rest of us, with Twitter trends and McMansion mortgages.



I'm not sure they were taught from the same book. With wealth comes privileges, better schools, private tutors, Skull & Crossbones societies ... they have at least a few layers of illusion stripped away during their education.



> Their 'personalities' drove them to succeed at something most of us never even thought to try.  Why aren't we all millionaires?  Because we didn't really ever want to be, just as most of us don't espouse the 'survivalist' existence in a bark hut in the wilderness to satisfy a need to 'live off the grid'.   Hell, there's no TV off the grid! :laugh:



Certainly personality has a lot to do with it - that's just another reason why it's so dangerous, and non-productive *for us*, to follow a one-size-fits-all agenda.


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## Diwundrin

> The  ones who do escape it are those who look deeper into the lessons, put  them together in the right pattern and gain an understanding of how and  WHY it works on us, and use their knowledge to further their own  futures.
> 
> It's tough to take advantage of something that you're not aware exists.



No not as kids still learning, but using it later in life as a template comes in useful.  I've found the most trivial of things picked up when even I didn't know I was paying attention has been the key to understanding how other seemingly disparate things fit together.



> I'm not sure they were taught from the same book. With wealth comes  privileges, better schools, private tutors, Skull & Crossbones  societies ... they have at least a few layers of illusion stripped away  during their education.



Certainly not when it comes to higher education,  but up to around 10-12 they are all getting much the same basics to build on.

Not all millionaires were born that way, many out here started with nothing  but what they carried in their heads.  They're not all saints, nor are they all particularly bad people, just like the rest of us.  But I admire their ability to live 'outside the machine' as much as you admire the more (sorry) drop-out, off the grid, types.


Otherwise I can't find we have much to argue about.  siiiigh.:whome::laugh:


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## SifuPhil

> Otherwise I can't find we have much to argue about.  siiiigh.:whome::laugh:



Oh, I'm sure we can find ...

HEY! YOU STOLE MY WHISTLY FACE!!! :rofl:



Diwundrin said:


> No not as kids still learning, but using it later in life as a template comes in useful.  I've found the most trivial of things picked up when even I didn't know I was paying attention has been the key to understanding how other seemingly disparate things fit together.



But isn't later in life TOO late? We are formed largely in our youth - only discovering The Secret in our adulthood is like finding out your spouse forgot to pack water for that trip across the desert. 




> Certainly not when it comes to higher education,  but up to around 10-12 they are all getting much the same basics to build on.



And are being brainwashed in the process ... 



> Not all millionaires were born that way, many out here started with nothing  but what they carried in their heads.  They're not all saints, nor are they all particularly bad people, just like the rest of us.  But I admire their ability to live 'outside the machine' as much as you admire the more (sorry) drop-out, off the grid, types.



Money doesn't make them any fundamentally different - it just changes their focus. I just choose not to focus on money, but on life.


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## SifuPhil

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think there has to be more to having a meaningful relationship with the people we have in our lives , than just how we were programmed as a child, at least to some extent.  There are people who are happily successful in both their life, and their work, as well as in their personal relationships.



Are there? I don't encounter many of them - I suppose I ought to stop hanging around in sleazy bars ... 




> I am trying to reflect back on my own life and upbringing, and I don't remember ever being told that I needed to become successful, or have trendy things.



One of the signs of successful indoctrination is that the subject does not _remember_ the indoctrination ... 




> My folks had old cars, and even though my dad had a steady job as a lineman, we lived a very modest lifestyle.



That was a balancing factor ... 



> I was preached to, certainly, that I needed to be respectful to adults, behave at home, and in school or other public places. I was taught that caring about other people was the first importance in life, and this was demonstrated constantly by both my mother and my father, in the way they lived their lives.



Granted I'm probably taking you too literally and I don't mean to disrespect your parents, but I see many holes in that type of thinking in today's world. I too was taught to always be respectful to adults, but you have to admit that there are some adults that don't DESERVE respect. 

"Behave" - could mean many things to many people. I got into trouble a lot as a kid - nothing major, but Dennis-The-Menace-style trouble. Yet here I am, not a bad guy as guys go - what would have happened if I followed their rules to the letter? Is there not a possibility I would be an empty shell right now?

Caring for others being the most important? I don't buy that. Without caring for YOURSELF you won't be around to care for OTHERS. The whole martyr thing is, in my opinion, overdone. The problem is that in our society the smallest sign of taking care of yourself before others is seen as egotism and narcissism, but a certain amount of self-love is necessary to survive.



> I was a reader, didn't watch tv, and was pretty much a loner ; so I missed all of the social-status stuff from tv and school.



Yet another bullet dodged - congratulations! 



> There were the rewards for good behavior that you talked about, and I did try to learn everything in school, but math was certainly not one of my good subjects either.



Rewards for what THEY considered good behavior, yes ... 



> I think it might have been better if I had been more motivated for success in life, at least to some extent. Living at the bottom of the ladder is not much fun either, but still, I would not have wanted success, if it came at another person's expense.



_Everything_ we do is at the expense of someone else, when you think about it. Even the "good deeds" that we believe we are performing altruistically for others are dis-empowering those people - you are giving them a crutch. When we eat a Big Mac we are removing that sandwich from someone else's menu. We hold a door open for someone and, do it enough times, they'll start to expect it, only to have their hopes dashed when you aren't there. The entire business world is based upon a "I Win - You Lose" mentality, a mentality drummed into us early in our lives. 



> So, somewhere in there, must be the middle ground, where we can learn from our early social programming, have at least a moderately successful life; without losing sight of the people, while looking at the glitz and gadgets.



Agreed. We just need to learn to stand OUTSIDE of that programming, in order to see it for what it really is.


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## 0020Mariah

I can relate to what *Happyflowerlady* wrote. It reflects my own upbringing. Values like honesty and tolerance were common topic of conversation at home. I think it had to do with Dad not being the religious type but allowed his wife for christian upbringing of their children. 

Very early in life (as a teenager), I learned we lived in a "controlled mind" society. I learn Education Programs were specilly made up for that purpose. We did attend school, but education was completed at home; I didn't know at the time, but Dad was kind of an anarquist living in a "consumer" oriented society, where people are taught to believe that "success" meant going to University, having a big house, late model cars in front of it, a big Bank Account and going on vacation every summer. 

I was taught to appreciate what was FREE in life. Admire and take care of living beings on Earth, respecting Nature. Mom taught her children they were like the fingers of a hand; together can make a fist and have power, meaning that's how they should help each other; the hand is family. My own children were brought up this same way, and so are my grandchildren now. Some has gone to higher education, but that's not as important and has to do with "personal choices", respect for them and support from family. Tolerance for other's ideas and ways of life, were very clear to all of us. 

Have a nice day,
Mariah.


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## Denise1952

SifuPhil said:


> We all are subjected, to a greater or lesser degree, to social conditioning from the moment we are born. It is maintained and re-enforced as we grow older through the schools, the corporate world and the media that we grow to depend upon. I believe that rigid adherence to this conditioning results in stunted emotional growth, leading to many if not all of our relationship problems.
> 
> View attachment 5141​
> Let me 'splain...
> 
> *The Carrot and The Stick*
> 
> We're taught that our lives should follow a certain narrowly-defined path in order to be “successful”. Early on, we're told to “be good” and “pay attention” in school. If we do, we get warm strokes from our teachers and parents.
> 
> But if we don't?
> 
> If we don't follow their rules, we're given labels - “unfocused”, “scattered”, “disruptive”, “ADHD”. We're lectured that we won't grow up to be firemen and ballerinas if we don't pay attention and follow the rules. We have to be “good little boys and girls”.
> 
> This conditioning continues throughout elementary, middle and high school and on into college. Most colleges now are not seats of higher learning - they don't give students a well-rounded general education to prepare them for life or instill in them an appreciation for the finer arts. Instead, they have become job-preparation services - students as far back as middle school are being lectured about choosing their college and their life-path. All college does in this situation is give the finishing control commands to those eager young minds, in preparation for their corporate dronedom.
> 
> *Failures?*
> 
> And yes, there will be those who don't take to the college experience - once again, they're often viewed by society as “failures”. Maybe they just saw the situation from a fresh perspective, a more wide-ranging, all-encompassing perspective and decided to get off the train before it arrived at its final destination.
> 
> Good for them.
> 
> The corporate world merely makes reality out of the theory that was brainwashed into the students in college. They're told they have to be team players, keep their noses to the grindstone, sacrifice constantly now for the future. They have to bear their suffering like good troupers, keep a stiff upper-lip and take one for the team.
> 
> Well, the recent spate of layoffs, firings and “down-sizings” puts the lie to that approach. What did all of their suffering and dedication bring them but heartache, fear and stress? They made the mistake of buying into the Machine - of believing what the radio and cable TV and Internet told them to believe. They chased the dragon, thinking that materialistic achievements were the only worthwhile scorecards available. They were good little boys and girls, and what was their reward?
> 
> *The Rewards*
> 
> They lost their jobs, got into fights with their spouses, developed sarcastic, pessimistic outlooks on life, probably started developing stress-related habits and medical conditions, kicked their dogs, etc. Hardly an enviable reward for all their goodness.
> 
> In the realm of interpersonal relationships, this social conditioning is especially limiting to spiritual and emotional growth and well-being. We're taught to associate only with those at an equal social level or higher; we turn a blind eye to anyone below our “stations” in life. Our perspectives were fitted with collar and chain, and then we wonder why we didn't see what was really important in life.
> 
> View attachment 5143
> ​
> Our choice of relationship partners is a direct result of the sum total of all of our social conditioning. Little wonder that the divorce rates are so high, that both physical and mental abuse are so rampant, and that we are stuck on a merry-go-round that is going faster and faster with no more rings to grab. We think we know the problem, because it's been diagnosed for us by the media. Our teeth aren't white enough, our clothes aren't fashionable enough, our man-parts aren't stiff enough. So we attempt to buy our way out of our problems, thus remaining firmly entrenched in the vicious cycle.
> 
> Only a few lucky souls have the ability to step back, take a deep breath and see the situation from a more universal perspective. They realize that material toys don't really matter; that we don't need to have the latest, greatest vehicle to be happy; that we don't really need that trophy wife or young stud companion just for the sake of appearances. They make the spiritual leap into the realization that everyone, everywhere is connected; that we don't so much make new acquaintances as renew old ones that we didn't even know existed.
> 
> Rare indeed is the individual who can escape the shackles of social conditioning. Rarer still is the individual who doesn't feel at least some pangs of loss, emptiness and apathy once they do. But eventually, your life becomes a much more sane and comfortable affair. You'll look into your past and wonder how you ever survived, and you'll enter into new relationships a more balanced, self-contained, phobia-free person.



This was a very good read for me Phil, thank you.  I believe every word of this to be true, not that I want to play any blame game, because I simply don't blame ignorance.  Those that have pushed this thought they knew what they were doing.  For me personally, there was never any other choice, I knew I did not fit into the "normal" flow of things.  I didn't rebel as much as I just wouldn't participate.

Because of that lack of participation I missed out on the good teachings I might have been able to sift out of the garbage.  The good thing for me, is I have learned what is important for my life now.  For so long I did feel like the failure much of the world saw me as, even my "hard-driving" older brother that made it all to clear to people around him, he was ashamed of his little sister.  The hardest times were when I thought I was a failure.  I know in my head I am not, not to say I haven't failed at things, but that is not who I am, it is what I have attempted, or sadly, sometimes not even attempted because something said I would fail anyway.

I could go on but who cares really.  The point is, those that go before us, raise us up to be adults, those productive members of society (and like you said, productive as they see productive) for the most part (I sincerely hope so) have our best interest at heart.

I believe each man and woman will have it revealed to them at some point or other, that they were wrong about certain things.  They can admit it or deny, maybe that will determine if they every find true peace, if there is such a thing.  I hope to reach a point of true humility one day, whether it's before I die, or someplace after.  I think that is where true peace is.

Thanks again Phil, Denise


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## Ina

Denise, WELL SAID. I wish I had the ability You, Phil, HFL, and so many have with the written word. (Thanks you spell checker). :hatoff:


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## Denise1952

Ina said:


> Denise, WELL SAID. I wish I had the ability You, Phil, HFL, and so many have with the written word. (Thanks you spell checker). :hatoff:



You have a wonderful ability Ina, you have written some things that are very profound, and you have helped me so much Denise


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## Ina

Thanks Denise, Did ya see? We made you one of quads. IF not - go see. (((Hugs)))


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## Ina

Phil, I agree with, "The Carrot and the Stick". I was pulled out of school in the 5th. grade when I was 11. No middle school or high school. But at 35, I went and took the entrance exam for college, and passed with a 98% score. Now as you can see, I'm just not that intelligent. But, I was running circles around "high School graduates. That shouldn't have been. After 19 years of college, I came out with  4. GPA, and I made top ten nationally, two years in a row in the United Achievement Academy 1995 & 1996 Collegiate Directory.
That felt good, but I knew our kids were just not being taught what they should have been. That's :sosad:


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## Denise1952

Ina said:


> Phil, I agree with, "The Carrot and the Stick". I was pulled out of school in the 5th. grade when I was 11. No middle school or high school. But at 35, I went and took the entrance exam for college, and passed with a 98% score. Now as you can see, I'm just not that intelligent. But, I was running circles around "high School graduates. That shouldn't have been. After 19 years of college, I came out with  4. GPA, and I made top ten nationally, two years in a row in the United Achievement Academy 1995 & 1996 Collegiate Directory.
> That felt good, but I knew our kids were just not being taught what they should have been. That's :sosad:



Wow Ina, that is wonderful! Bless your pea-pickin heart:clap:That's me in during your graduation ceremony!!


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## Denise1952

Just sayin said:


> Absolutely agree with the initial post. Society precedes the individual and rather than change the impossible, its for us as individuals to see through the materialistic aspects and focus on changing ourselves. Knowledge is power and all that.



I agree, the buck does stop with me.  I'm so overwhelmed if I am focused on what is wrong "out there" but when I take even a baby-step toward making some little thing, within my power, better, then it's been a good day


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## SifuPhil

Ina said:


> Phil, I agree with, "The Carrot and the Stick". I was pulled out of school in the 5th. grade when I was 11. No middle school or high school. But at 35, I went and took the entrance exam for college, and passed with a 98% score. *Now as you can see, I'm just not that intelligent.* But, I was running circles around "high School graduates. That shouldn't have been. After 19 years of college, I came out with  4. GPA, and I made top ten nationally, two years in a row in the United Achievement Academy 1995 & 1996 Collegiate Directory.
> That felt good, but I knew our kids were just not being taught what they should have been. That's :sosad:



Good on you, Ina!

As for the highlighted phrase, I don't believe that for a second. You're just trying to be humble. 



Just sayin said:


> Absolutely agree with the initial post. Society precedes the individual and rather than change the impossible, its for us as individuals to see through the materialistic aspects and focus on changing ourselves. Knowledge is power and all that.



Nice to see that we agree on SOME things anyway, JS! :encouragement:


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## Ina

Denise, WHAT did you study in college. I Studied Horticulture, Sociology, Psychology, Pottery, Mathematics, English Literature, and Art. As you can see I changed my major often. I was't interested in a degree. I just want a good education and I loved to study. IF I could afford it, I would still be going up and down those halls.


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## Denise1952

I only had 6 terms as of late, and I did similar to you in that I took what I wanted to, didn't stick to their programs, and so, I didn't get a degree.  But I learned more of what I wanted to know.  I took Ecommerce, Business classes, lots of Math because I love it. I'll tell you more in a private message


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## SifuPhil

nwlady said:


> ... I'll tell you more in a private message



Did I ever show you my paper "_Private Messaging: The Enemy of Relationships_"? :hypnotysed:


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## Denise1952

well I didn't want to hijack your thread, and I do hope you are wearing something under that armor, it's positively nerve-racking wondering if a gust of wind is going to catch your "skirt"


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## Ina

Oh, I forgot Business and Accounting. I DIDN't want a degree, because to me it meant I would be through. And I wasn't trying looking for a career. I was already an accountant and payroll officer, and making a very good wage. Since I paid cash for my tuition, the college couldn't't force me into graduate program.


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## Ina

Denise, Did you find where we made you a quad?


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## Ina

It,is under the old photos thread.


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## Ina

Welcome back Warrigal, we missed you. :hatoff:


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## That Guy

It is clear to all that the animal organism is a highly complex system consisting of an almost infinite series of parts connected both with one another and, as a total complex, with the surrounding world, with which it is in a state of equilibrium.
Ivan Pavlov


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## Denise1952

That Guy said:


> It is clear to all that the animal organism is a highly complex system consisting of an almost infinite series of parts connected both with one another and, as a total complex, with the surrounding world, with which it is in a state of equilibrium.
> Ivan Pavlov



I'm way to under-educated to get this but no matter, when I don't get something I just laugh out loud:lofl:


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## Ina

Denise, You shouldn't fib, I've seen how well you write when your excited about a  subject. :hide:


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## That Guy

nwlady said:


> I'm way to under-educated to get this but no matter, when I don't get something I just laugh out loud:lofl:



Often, such heady thoughts are best digested one word at a time and it all comes together.  But, laughing is fine with me as I'm all about laughter.


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## Denise1952

Ina said:


> Denise, You shouldn't fib, I've seen how well you write when your excited about a  subject. :hide:



Well, it's sort of scarey though Ina, things come out of my head, then my mouth and I know little of their origin:saywhat:


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## That Guy

nwlady said:


> Well, it's sort of scarey though Ina, things come out of my head, then my mouth and I know little of their origin:saywhat:



Free verse, stream of consciousness!  The best.


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## Denise1952

That Guy said:


> Often, such heady thoughts are best digested one word at a time and it all comes together.  But, laughing is fine with me as I'm all about laughter.



Well that was some deep stuff TGOne word at a time? Ok, I'll give'er a go  You do realize I'm not laughing at you, it's a nervous laugh that screams 'splain it to me, LOL!!


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## Denise1952

That Guy said:


> Free verse, stream of consciousness!  The best.



Really?? Are you saying jus let'er rip then?:cool1:


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## SifuPhil

That Guy said:


> It is clear to all that the animal organism is a highly complex system consisting of an almost infinite series of parts connected both with one another and, as a total complex, with the surrounding world, with which it is in a state of equilibrium.
> Ivan Pavlov




This made me drool ...


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## Denise1952

I think I want to know why Phil?  Kind of nervous to ask, but what the heck!!:wink:


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## Vivjen

SifuPhil said:


> This made me drool ...



Very good; Phil!


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## SifuPhil

=Vivjen said:
			
		

> Very good; Phil!



Thank you, m'Lady - glad to see all that time spent in college did SOMETHING for me. 




nwlady said:


> I think I want to know why Phil?  Kind of nervous to ask, but what the heck!!:wink:



LOL!

See: Pavlov's Dogs


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## Falcon

I hope that guy stops ringing that friggin' bell SOON !  My feet are drowning in spit !


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## Denise1952

Ok, fine, there's always google, but I am pretty sure I had this in psychology 101, so I'll go see if I'm right:tongue:


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## Denise1952

Ok, I got it  All the education in the world is useless unless I can retain it, LOL!!


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## SifuPhil

nwlady said:


> Ok, fine, there's always google, but I am pretty sure I had this in psychology 101, so I'll go see if I'm right:tongue:



Well, I gave you a link - what more do you want? 

Must I take you by the hand
And explain to you the gland
That's responsible for all my nasty spit?

When you ring the little bell
My response, as you can tell,
Is to get excited and to drool a bit.


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## Denise1952

SifuPhil said:


> Well, I gave you a link - what more do you want?
> 
> Must I take you by the hand
> And explain to you the gland
> That's responsible for all my nasty spit?
> 
> When you ring the little bell
> My response, as you can tell,
> Is to get excited and to drool a bit.



I know, I missed the little, blue link in front of my face!


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## Denise1952

there's a study, do we see what we want, or expect, or do we see what is actually there, lol


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## That Guy

Falcon said:


> I hope that guy stops ringing that friggin' bell SOON !


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## That Guy

nwlady said:


> there's a study, do we see what we want, or expect, or do we see what is actually there, lol


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## Falcon

:lol1:


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## Denise1952

That Guy said:


>



:lofl:quazimoto no stop drooling, hehehe! Thlurp!


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## Denise1952

That Guy said:


>



Geesh, good-lookin and smart


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## SifuPhil

nwlady said:


> Geesh, good-lookin and smart



_Brave New World_ (1931) - he called the shots for the future, far better I think than Orwell's _1984_.


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## Denise1952

I'd heard of him but never have known much about him.  Maybe I will find what wiki has on him, better yet, get hold of the book, thanks Phil.


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## Denise1952

SifuPhil said:


> _Brave New World_ (1931) - he called the shots for the future, far better I think than Orwell's _1984_.



Found quite a bit on him, no surprise.  Didn't realize he, JFK, and CS Lewis died about the same time.  Someone wrote a book about their supposed meeting after death.  Can't remember the book now but I'd like to read that one for sure!


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## SifuPhil

nwlady said:


> Found quite a bit on him, no surprise.  Didn't realize he, JFK, and CS Lewis died about the same time.  Someone wrote a book about their supposed meeting after death.  Can't remember the book now but I'd like to read that one for sure!



Here it is at Amazon:

Between Heaven and Hell

It's a very good read - I'd recommend it. :encouragement:


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## Denise1952

k, got it Phil, ty again


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