# Religion



## Lon (Jul 4, 2014)

Much, if not all of the current world problems seem to revolve around religion and it's individual beliefs. . The problem is RELIGION itself, and those that  refuse to face real world reality and instead wish to believe in  supernatural unrealistic myth and superstition and totally ignore logic. Current domestic and political problems in the U.S. have come about because of religious thinking.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 4, 2014)

I agree that religion is behind many arguments and wars, and religious people usually have very little tolerance of other people's beliefs (or non-beliefs).


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## SifuPhil (Jul 4, 2014)

Although I'm not normally a fan of organized religion I would have to say that the blame for MOST domestic and international problems comes _not_ from religion but from the greed and avarice and materialism of humans. 

Money and power - those are the catalysts.

Religion is just the mask, the disguise that is used to _justify_ their actions.


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## Falcon (Jul 4, 2014)

And it's STILL a big problem.  Think Islam against all others....the infidels.

Imagine, a religion that advocates killing anybody who isn't a Muslim.

 This is why I'm not a religious person.  I've lived a good, happy, satisfied life without it.


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## Bettyann (Jul 4, 2014)

Falcon, Christians hold the honors for more killing than any other religion...beginning with the Crusades. And still, to this day, people in the military are justified in killing because they 'serve God and Country'... 
All of our 'big wars' have been fought in the name of religion, used as an excuse. Well, they need some 'justification' or otherwise they probably couldn't go through with all the slaughtering. That includes Christian countries fighting each other. I agree about money and power... but many have used religion as a cover.


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## Warrigal (Jul 4, 2014)

> religious people usually have very little tolerance of other people's beliefs (or non-beliefs).


Does that include Richard Dawkins?


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## Justme (Jul 5, 2014)

Falcon said:


> And it's STILL a big problem.  Think Islam against all others....the infidels.
> 
> Imagine, a religion that advocates killing anybody who isn't a Muslim.
> 
> This is why I'm not a religious person.  I've lived a good, happy, satisfied life without it.



Not all Muslims advocate killing non Muslims by any means, so please don't tar them all with the extremist brush. There are plenty of Christian nutters out their too, especially the, 'you must be 'saved' or go to hell' crazy loons!


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## Fern (Jul 5, 2014)

Bettyann said:


> Falcon, Christians hold the honors for more killing than any other religion...beginning with the Crusades. And still, to this day, people in the military are justified in killing because they 'serve God and Country'...
> All of our 'big wars' have been fought in the name of religion, used as an excuse. Well, they need some 'justification' or otherwise they probably couldn't go through with all the slaughtering. That includes Christian countries fighting each other. I agree about money and power... but many have used religion as a cover.


You say that 'all of our big wars have been fought in the name of religion'. How so?.


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## Misty (Jul 5, 2014)

I am a Catholic Christian. So far, I haven't tried to kill anyone, yet.  I don't try to recruit people to my religion, it's private to me, and have always respected everyone's right to their religion or not.

I do have a big problem with Sharia law....involving the killing of those that don't believe in it, or go against their rules. I remember a muslim couple some time ago, that started a television station to show everyone how peaceful muslims are in their lives. Not too long after.....the wife wanted a divorce and he cut her head off...and he is in prison. I would imagine Sharia Law was involved.


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## romfty (Jul 6, 2014)

Could'nt agree with the original post more...........all our troubles stem from tribal prejudices , call it religion or what you will, just old wives tales embleished over the years by sad old men.


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## Misty (Jul 7, 2014)

Lon said:


> Much, if not all of the current world problems seem to revolve around religion and it's individual beliefs. . The problem is RELIGION itself, and those that refuse to face real world reality and instead wish to believe in supernatural unrealistic myth and superstition and totally ignore logic. Current domestic and political problems in the U.S. have come about because of religious thinking.



Not to be disrespectful, Lon, but isn't it possible you could be wrong, and those who believe and are Christians can be respectable people and not idiots? Do you have positive proof there is no God?


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## Meanderer (Jul 7, 2014)

I agree with Misty, why must the world be tolerant of every one's beliefs except Christians?  Tolerance is not a one way street.


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## Davey Jones (Jul 7, 2014)

Gee, not one word about that guy in his kingdom up there and his not to bright son.

Dont those 2 two share all the religious mess on this planet too?


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## Meanderer (Jul 7, 2014)

So that's where  That Guy went!


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## Lon (Jul 7, 2014)

Misty said:


> Not to be disrespectful, Lon, but isn't it possible you could be wrong, and those who believe and are Christians can be respectable people and not idiots? Do you have positive proof there is no God?



You are not being disrespectful, you are simply stating your opinion and there is nothing wrong with that. Secondly, of course Christians can be respectful people and not idiots, and many can and are deceitful, mean, arrogant, violent,hateful. Now you will probably say that well, they are not really Christians if they act that way. Finally, I just plain don't believe and don't have to prove or disprove anything because I am not trying to convert you or any one else to my way of thinking


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## Warrigal (Jul 7, 2014)

Lon, can you unpack this sentence for me a little more? 



> Current domestic and political problems in the U.S. have come about because of religious thinking.



As an Australian (and a Christian to boot), I've always noticed that the level of religiosity in your country is a lot more evident than it is over here but how does that translate into "domestic and political problems"? 

By the way, I'm not trying to convert you and I know that your OP was not an attempt to convert me, so can were actually talk about issues as sensible equals?


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## Lon (Jul 7, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Lon, can you unpack this sentence for me a little more?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The right wing in the U.S. is for the most part Fundamentalist  Christian. It's quite obvious as you watch TV news broadcasts. Their  views on everything from abortion to Public Education to the Immigration  problems have fundamentalist over tones and of course clash  dramatically with the left and more liberal and non religious ideology.
Both  groups in my view are full of crap. And then you have people like me  who are pretty libertarian, and we're full of crap too.


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## Warrigal (Jul 7, 2014)

:lol: It sure is a crappy world, isn't it?

I never argue with fundamentalists of any stripe because it is a pointless exercise but while they are a noisy bunch, they are in no means the majority.

Since writing this post I've been looking at some quotes on this subject.
I think you'll like this one from a very famous American



> “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
> ―     Thomas Jefferson



Perhaps you might like to comment in the light of the recent decision to allow some employers to exclude certain contraceptive measures from the health care plans of their employees on the grounds of the religious beliefs of the employer.


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## Warrigal (Jul 7, 2014)

Since this topic is titled Religion I hope this is not taking us too far off topic



> “If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.”
> ―     Stephen Colbert



It's amazing how insightful comedians can be on serious topics.

One doesn't need to believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazarus to take his teachings seriously but if one does take them seriously, they call for change - change of heart and change in one's actions. There are a lot of people who think they are acting in his name but who do not allow any change to their thinking or lifestyle. Then there are others who behave as if they were disciples of Christ who have never read the Christian bible. In the end, the tree is known by its fruit, not by some label nailed to its trunk.


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## Lon (Jul 7, 2014)




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## Warrigal (Jul 8, 2014)

Seriously, Lon, is that your guru? George Carlin? 

I can put you on to some far more intelligent atheists than that.
Bertrand Russell - “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence”  

Albert Einstein - “I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.”  

Epicurus -“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? 
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”  

Carl Sagan - “In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”
​Unless you can do better than your last clip, I think I can argue the atheist position better than you can and like Kaya I will depart the field too. As I said earlier, I find fundamentalists very hard to engage in a real discussion.


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## bulgyone (Jul 8, 2014)

All the various religious groups are ok, each to their own, the problems are caused by some of the idiots who are in them, and I can't see it ever changing


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## Lon (Jul 8, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Seriously, Lon, is that your guru? George Carlin?
> 
> I can put you on to some far more intelligent atheists than that.Bertrand Russell - “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence”
> 
> ...



No nice lady Dame, he is not my Guru, just my favorite comedian who has done many stand up bits on many subjects. Check out You Tube for George Carlin. As for atheists, how about Dawkins?


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## Mirabilis (Jul 8, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Although I'm not normally a fan of organized religion I would have to say that the blame for MOST domestic and international problems comes _not_ from religion but from the greed and avarice and materialism of humans.
> 
> Money and power - those are the catalysts.
> 
> Religion is just the mask, the disguise that is used to _justify_ their actions.



I couldn't have said it better.  Phil for President!


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## Warrigal (Jul 8, 2014)

> No nice lady Dame, he is not my Guru, just my favorite comedian who has done many stand up bits on many subjects. Check out You Tube for George Carlin. As for atheists, how about Dawkins?



 Precisely, Lon, George Carlin is a comedian of the modern group who go out of their way to be as offensive as possible through the use of profanities and by attacking groups of people who are not likely to be present in his audience. People who like him find him funny and witty but he is still a comedian, not a profound scholar nor a respected philosopher. I found references to George Carlin on the site where I found the quotes that I posted earlier. He was by no means the best among them.

Dawkins is different. He has spent years refining his secular philosophy and like him, I too am opposed to the kind of Christian fundamentalism that is anti science  and anti common sense. Unlike him, I do not throw out the baby with the bath water. I do not consider it to be child abuse to teach children the basics of their parents' faith. I am opposed to indoctrination whether it is in the form of religious dogma or political dogma. Teaching involves raising questions. Indoctrination suppresses them. Dawkins doesn't allow for that difference.

If you are interested in the religion quotes, there are over 4000 here: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/religion

They represent a variety of positions and they range from historical to contemporary.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 8, 2014)

Opinion article on Christianity and hell...http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/why-has-the-idea-of-hell-survived-so-long/


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## Warrigal (Jul 9, 2014)

SeaBreeze, I haven't read every word of that article because something clicked in my brain that said you can go mad trying to make sense of this sort of discussion. It's a bit like trying to understand then explain the Epicurean paradox about the problem of evil which I referred to earlier. It goes like this



> If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to then He is not omnipotent.
> If He is able, but not willing then He is malevolent.
> If He is both able and willing then whence cometh evil.
> If He is neither able nor willing then why call Him God?



I was once asked to study this riddle/paradox as part of the only theology course I ever signed up for. None of the attempts to solve the conundrum made any sense to me at all, least of all the idea of original sin from Genesis. As I was wrestling with it, an idea popped into my head (revelation ?) that said "This is the wrong question. The more important question is 'Who is my neighbour' ? ". This is the opening question to the parable of the Good Samaritan, a story so simple that even a little child can understand it, but the moral message takes a lifetime for us to be able to apply it unconditionally to all of humanity.

To me, it is a similar waste of time to bother thinking about Heaven and Hell. This is the imagery of the three tiered universe which we know is nothing like the reality of the observed universe. It is a lot more profitable to accept that human beings are flawed creatures who have been given the keys to unlock our own moral advancement. We make mistakes, we sin, and instead of worrying about how God will punish us, it is better to learn from our transgressions so that we move forward and upward. One of the things we need to learn is to seek and accept forgiveness, to forgive ourselves for not being perfect, and from this experience, be prepared to extend forgiveness to others. There would be a lot less Hell on Earth if we could learn to forgive.

If I was on my death bed and wanted to leave behind a message for my children and their children, I wouldn't talk about Hell. I'd talk about the power of forgiveness.


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## Steve (Jul 9, 2014)

Moses .....  The law is everything 
Jesus ......  Love is everything 
Marx .......  Money is everything 
Freud ......  Sex is everything 
Einstein ...  Everything is relative 

These are 5 Jews that changed the world .........


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## Warrigal (Jul 9, 2014)

I don't think this fellow is necessarily Jewish but I do like the way he expresses this self evident truth



> “A miraculous healing awaits this planet once we accept our new responsibility to collectively tend the Garden rather than fight over the turf.” ~Bruce H. Lipton, Ph.D.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 9, 2014)

Mirabilis said:


> I couldn't have said it better.  Phil for President!




"I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected."
~_William Tecumseh Sherman_

I would turn down any offer to be President, but I _would_ entertain offers for the office of Dictator for Life ... irate:


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## SifuPhil (Jul 9, 2014)

*Long-Lived Dictators*


*Yahya Abdul-Azziz Jemus Junkung Diliu Jammeh* - Gambia - in power since 1994 
*Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko* - Belarus - in power since 1994 
*Islam Abdug‘aniyevich Karimov* - Uzbekistan - since 1990 
*Idriss Déby Itno* - Chad - since 1990 
*Omar Hasan Ahmad al-Bashir* - Sudan - since 1989 
*Paul Biya - *Cameroon - since 1982 
*Robert Mugabe* - Zimbabwe - since 1980 
*José Eduardo dos Santos* - Angola - since 1979 
*Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo* - Equatorial Guinea - since 1979 

Together, just these nine dictators hold sway over *150 million* people ...


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## Ina (Jul 9, 2014)

You could start by giving us seniors a nice raise. raying:


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## SifuPhil (Jul 9, 2014)

Ina said:


> You could start by giving us seniors a nice raise. raying:



Okay ... all seniors will now move to the top of the closest mountain!


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## pteacher (Jul 11, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> SeaBreeze, I haven't read every word of that article because something clicked in my brain that said you can go mad trying to make sense of this sort of discussion. It's a bit like trying to understand then explain the Epicurean paradox about the problem of evil which I referred to earlier. It goes like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for your posts.  I have trouble putting my thoughts into words and you seem like a extremely educated woman who can do just that.  I, too, am a Christian and will not apologize or stoop to being called an "idiot".


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## birdman (Feb 6, 2015)

Wow! Interesting perspectives! 

Me thinks the facts rarely reflect the honest-to-God truth. You have to dig down a little deeper to find that.

Just for the record, i believe there is a kind, benevolent God that has our best interest at heart, unlike the way most folks who suspect He might exist, tend to think of Him.

I wouldn't try to answer naysayers questions. Some things have to be believed, in order to be experienced.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Although I'm not normally a fan of organized religion I would have to say that the blame for MOST domestic and international problems comes _not_ from religion but from the greed and avarice and materialism of humans.
> 
> Money and power - those are the catalysts.
> 
> Religion is just the mask, the disguise that is used to _justify_ their actions.



Religion has ALWAYS been about money and power.  That's what spurred the development of organized religion.  Some really smart folks figured out that if you could scare the crap out of people and keep them toeing the mark in hopes of some mystical magical reward... they would be happy to fill your coffers and keep you in luxury.


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## Butterfly (Feb 6, 2015)

I agree with Phil.  "religious" wars don't have much to do with religion -- its' more about power, money, greed, and wanting what the other guy has, all cloaked in the excuse of religion.

I am a Lutheran.  I don't have a problem with anybody else's religion, as long as they don't try to ram it down my throat or go around burning people alive to prove their piety, or power, or whatever.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I agree with Phil.  "religious" wars don't have much to do with religion -- its' more about power, money, greed, and wanting what the other guy has, all cloaked in the excuse of religion.
> 
> I am a Lutheran.  I don't have a problem with anybody else's religion, as long as they don't try to ram it down my throat or go around burning people alive to prove their piety, or power, or whatever.



I was raised Lutheran....Missouri Synod.   AKA... Catholic light


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## Ameriscot (Feb 6, 2015)

Misty said:


> Not to be disrespectful, Lon, but isn't it possible you could be wrong, and those who believe and are Christians can be respectable people and not idiots? *Do you have positive proof there is no God*?



Not meaning disrespect, but I find this argument funny whenever I hear it.  How can anyone prove something does not exist?  Can you prove faeries, trolls, leprachauns, little green men don't exist?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Meanderer said:


> I agree with Misty, why must the world be tolerant of every one's beliefs except Christians?  Tolerance is not a one way street.



I would venture to guess it's because so many are sanctimonious..


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## birdman (Feb 6, 2015)

The absence of evidence does not disprove existence. Or more accurately ... the absence of perceived evidence does not disprove existence. A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well, than a fool can from a mountaintop.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

birdman said:


> The absence of evidence does not disprove existence. Or more accurately ... the absence of perceived evidence does not disprove existence. A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well, than a fool can from a mountaintop.



Is it possible to PROVE there is a God?


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## birdman (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Is it possible to PROVE there is a God?


Nope - not in general - not in my mind. That's why they call it "Faith".


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## Denise1952 (Feb 6, 2015)

There's only one thing wrong with our world, people, end of discussion, LOL!!:hiteachother:


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

birdman said:


> Nope - not in general - not in my mind. That's why they call it "Faith".



That's exactly right..  Religious beliefs are based on faith... not fact.


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## birdman (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That's exactly right..  Religious beliefs are based on faith... not fact.


Correct! - Time will surely tell.
Peace


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

birdman said:


> Correct! - Time will surely tell.
> Peace




Let's put it this way... some folks are going to be in for a surprise..


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 6, 2015)

Wife and I are "Believers" as well as have "Faith". I remember back in the mid 90's, I tried to relocate twice. Once was to Sheridan, Wyoming and the other was to Billings, MT.. Neither time worked, but each morning, before leaving my motel room to do more driving, I prayed to keep myself safe. Must have worked, I'm here today! 

Now, what REALLY shocked/sort of scared both of us was watching the movie, Left Behind with Nicholas Cage. It was a movie, but wife and I will continue to be good Christians and "Believe" and keep the "Faith".


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## Cookie (Feb 6, 2015)

I wonder if religious people actually believe all the doctrine they are taught, or are they just going along with it because they were born into it and that is the way they have been trained and taught from early childhood and it is part of their upbringing and social group. It becomes part of  their identity like coming from a certain cultural background. 

Even though some may participate in study groups to discuss their beliefs, other than monks and clerics, most are not religious scholars, just laypeople who are too busy working and dealing with daily life and probably only  think about it except for a few hours a week in church.  If they talk about it it's mostly not based on personal experience, but parroting what they have been taught or memorized. 

For many to believe in some kind of religion is preferable than not, which would be is too frightening. So they join a church from one of the many spiritual supermarkets, buy the product and pay the price (tithe) and feel safer.


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## oakapple (Feb 6, 2015)

Hmmn, you could say that, Cookie [and indeed you have done.]There is a lot of truth in it.We don't know what comes after death though [if anything] or why we are here, or what is out there and what created it, universes beyond universes.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Is it possible to PROVE there is a God?



No but one may experience the presence of God.


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## Cookie (Feb 6, 2015)

If that is how you want to define the experience.  But it is still an unknown, because the mind will make up an explanation.  It is unclear what an exalted or altered state actually is and although it might be euphoric at the time, it could also be caused by something physiological.

Then organizations go about making up all kinds of philosophies and rules around these experiences, which might be something completely natural.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> No but one may experience the presence of God.



How can you be certain that that is what you experienced?  I mean CERTAIN... and not just conjecture?

Another person may have the same experience and come to a different conclusion.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> How can you be certain that that is what you experienced?  I mean CERTAIN... and not just conjecture?
> 
> Another person may have the same experience and come to a different conclusion.



Of course. I myself could have come to a different conclusion and dismissed the experience using reason and pop psychology.
At times like this the modern, rational person comes to a fork in the road.

The mind points one way but something deeper down inside is calling you to take the other road, as Scott Beck puts it, "the road less travelled". Once this road is taken the mind opens to new and surprising perceptions of reality. Like dark matter and dark energy, there is an unseen presence that pervades the universe. It goes by many different names. God is one appellation, love is another. Both exist within us and about us. 

Scientists try to explain both using what we know about brain chemistry. I don't really care about the rational attempts to explain God/faith and love. I have experienced both and am grateful. My life is richer because of the experience.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 6, 2015)

All I can say to this is..........THANK YOU and two BIG :thumbsup1:



Dame Warrigal said:


> Of course. I myself could have come to a different conclusion and dismissed the experience using reason and pop psychology.
> At times like this the modern, rational person comes to a fork in the road.
> 
> The mind points one way but something deeper down inside is calling you to take the other road, as Scott Beck puts it, "the road less travelled". Once this road is taken the mind opens to new and surprising perceptions of reality. Like dark matter and dark energy, there is an unseen presence that pervades the universe. It goes by many different names. God is one appellation, love is another. Both exist within us and about us.
> ...


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## darroll (Feb 6, 2015)

I went  in to my think tank and studied religion.
I can accept us swinging from trees (tail bone)
When I got to the big bang, I figured someone had to excite a molecule to start the big bang.
Space is absolute zero and a lone atom had to get warmed up to be of any good.
Maybe Buddha did it?


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

Darroll, does any of that matter at all when it comes to making your daily moral decisions ?
Does any of it inform your understanding of the nature of what philosophers call "the good life"?

PS IMO, your understanding of the physics of the big bang is somewhat eccentric but that doesn't matter either.


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## darroll (Feb 6, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Darroll, does any of that matter at all when it comes to making your daily moral decisions ?
> Does any of it inform your understanding of the nature of what philosophers call "the good life"?
> 
> PS IMO, your understanding of the physics of the big bang is somewhat eccentric but that doesn't matter either.



None of this affects my decisions.
No I still have a good life.
The big bang doesn't matter either.
The reason I looked into religion was there are so many holes in the Bible.

Garner Ted Armstrong preached the bible had much incorrect translation. 
He asked for a review and no-one listened because Garner liked his gals and got into trouble with the church.
I'm not trying to change any ones thinking, this is what I did to answer my own questions.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

I've never had any time for tele-evangelists.

As a young person I agonised over the impossible questions all the time. That is what young people do.

 Now that I am older I don't waste my time on these questions.
 For me there is only one question from the Bible that is really important most of the time.
 That question*** is "Who is my neighbour?" I'm still working on understanding and living the answer.

 ***The question is the prelude to the parable of the good Samaritan.


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## darroll (Feb 6, 2015)

The only reason for my post was people that believe in God are dumb. (Or something like that)

One thing I learned about war was a high level person asked a foreign leader why he can't control his people with religion? This question was hushed up.

People will not believe things that they cannot see and I don't blame them.
I stumbled with the question that who created God. Then I realized nothing is impossible.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

darroll said:


> The only reason for my post was people that believe in God are dumb. (Or something like that)



Well  :thanks: Darroll, for that very insightful post.


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## birdman (Feb 6, 2015)

Conventional wisdom says "Time heals all wounds."  but wise people say "Time wounds all heels."

We are talking mysteries (hidden to some).

When it comes to, "is there a God?" 

I submit to you that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Same is true in science as the spirit realm. Dig deeper!


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## Denise1952 (Feb 6, 2015)

Darroll, really, LOL!!  People believe in all kinds of things, including things they can't see.  If it brings them peace and joy, why not be happy for them.  If you don't like what someone is preaching then who is twisting your arm to listen


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## SifuPhil (Feb 6, 2015)

nwlady said:


> ...  People believe in all kinds of things, including things they can't see ...





I believe I'm going to die someday, but I can't quite see how
I believe that people are basically good but I sure as heck don't see that in the news
I believe it WAS the dog who farted, but still I can't see it
I believe in peanut butter, so I gotta' believe in Peter Pan


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## ~Lenore (Feb 6, 2015)

*It takes faith to believe in God.  
In my estimation it takes more faith to insist there isn't.
I was an atheist for many years, 
it never bothered me then that others believed in god.

I have never understood why it bothers atheists so much these days. 
It seems they are intent or trying to convince us believers
 we are idiots and dumb so we can get "smart" and join them.
I suspect they fear believers might be right.  

If my faith in God is wrong what does it cost me?
If I am right, it gives me much peace and comfort. 
*


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## Denise1952 (Feb 6, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I believe I'm going to die someday, but I can't quite see how
> I believe that people are basically good but I sure as heck don't see that in the news
> I believe it WAS the dog who farted, but still I can't see it
> I believe in peanut butter, so I gotta' believe in Peter Pan



I believe you are a figment of my imagination but you do keep showing up  So you're like a multiple figment!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 6, 2015)

~Lenore said:


> *...
> If my faith in God is wrong what does it cost me?
> If I am right, it gives me much peace and comfort.
> *



What does it cost you?

It costs a life spent believing in something false. It costs all those Sundays, all those donations, all those guilt trips. It costs you waiting around for someone else to do what needs to be done. It costs you to overlook reality.

If I do not believe in God yet live an exemplary life, would He not accept me into Heaven? 

Yes, I know, I have to accept Jesus as my Savior. But do you mean to tell me that if I am such a good person I make Mother Theresa look like Sandra Bernhard, I still won't get into Heaven because I _don't_ accept Him?

There's something basically wrong with a system like that.


----------



## Butterfly (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I was raised Lutheran....Missouri Synod.   AKA... Catholic light



I'm also Missouri Synod.
I've only heard that designation (Catholic light) a couple of times before -- I think it is apt, though.  
quite


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I believe I'm going to die someday, but I can't quite see how
> I believe that people are basically good but I sure as heck don't see that in the news
> I believe it WAS the dog who farted, but still I can't see it
> I believe in peanut butter, so I gotta' believe in Peter Pan


I place my faith in Wendy.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 6, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I place my faith in Wendy.



Well, now, see, we can have a dialogue about that, discuss our similarities and differences, compare and contrast.

I bet we both fear Capt. Hook, though ...


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm not a believer but that anyone else is bothers me not at all.  I think the thrust of the criticism here is the harm done in the name of religion.  All faiths have or have had a hand in that over the eons.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 7, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I'm also Missouri Synod.
> I've only heard that designation (Catholic light) a couple of times before -- I think it is apt, though.
> quite



OH.. yes... absolutely..  When I was in 6th grade, all the Catholic kids in my class got to go to the Catholic church for special masses... SOOO... not wanting to miss anything.. and wanting to get out of class for the afternoon.. I went with them..   I was amazed that other than a few little things.. like all the kneeling and the genuflecting, I was able to follow along with the liturgy.. most of the words were the same..  the Priest dressed exactly like my Pastor.. It was all very familiar.   Of course there are some dogma differences I could list... hence the word "light"  But growing up Missouri Synod.. it hardly seemed "light" at the time.  I've got all the guilt that my Catholic friends have... lol!!


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## Ameriscot (Feb 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> OH.. yes... absolutely..  When I was in 6th grade, all the Catholic kids in my class got to go to the Catholic church for special masses... SOOO... not wanting to miss anything.. and wanting to get out of class for the afternoon.. I went with them..   I was amazed that other than a few little things.. like all the kneeling and the genuflecting, I was able to follow along with the litergy.. most of the words were the same..  the Priest dressed exactly like my Pastor.. It was all very familar.   Of course there are some dogma differences I could list... hence the word "light"  But growing up Missouri Synod.. it hardly seemed "light" at the time.  I've got all the guilt that my Catholic friends have... lol!!



I grew up a guilty little catholic girl with a fear of burning forever in hell.  I loved all the rituals with the genuflecting, blessing yourself with holy water, rosaries, etc.  That turned around when I discovered the tale of fire in hell was just something all the sheepies were told to keep them afraid. Got married, moved out, end of catholicism for me.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I grew up a guilty little catholic girl with a fear of burning forever in hell.  I loved all the rituals with the genuflecting, blessing yourself with holy water, rosaries, etc.  That turned around when I discovered the tale of fire in hell was just something all the sheepies were told to keep them afraid. Got married, moved out, end of catholicism for me.



I agree... We were fed that "burning in Hell" garbage..  Our Pastor had all of us so afraid of even THINKING differently than what was being taught.  I just couldn't wrap my mind around all the dogma and fairytales..   So I had this horrible fear and guilt all the time.   I think this is what makes me an Agnostic rather than an Atheist.  I don't seem to have the ability to completely shake what was so deeply indoctrinated... yet as a rational adult.. I just can't believe it.


----------



## Ameriscot (Feb 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I agree... We were fed that "burning in Hell" garbage..  Our Pastor had all of us so afraid of even THINKING differently than what was being taught.  I just couldn't wrap my mind around all the dogma and fairytales..   So I had this horrible fear and guilt all the time.   I think this is waht makes me an Agnostic rather than an Atheist.  I don't seem to have the ability to completely shake what was so deeply indoctrinated... yet as a rational adult.. I just can't believe it.



It's very hard to shake all that propaganda drummed into us in childhood.  And being catholic meant confession and having to keep 'track' of my sins. I'm not atheist, I'm open-minded and have no idea what is true and what isn't.  I enjoy Buddhist practices, and I also still feel a bit of a pagan with a connection to nature and mythology.  I really have my own belief system that is impossible to label. 

I have a feeling though if I was in plane which was about to crash I'd start saying Hail Marys.


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## Cookie (Feb 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It's very hard to shake all that propaganda drummed into us in childhood.  And being catholic meant confession and having to keep 'track' of my sins. I'm not atheist, I'm open-minded and have no idea what is true and what isn't.  I enjoy Buddhist practices, and I also still feel a bit of a pagan with a connection to nature and mythology.  I really have my own belief system that is impossible to label.
> 
> I have a feeling though if I was in plane which was about to crash I'd start saying Hail Marys.



I agree, it's hard to shake all the ingrained childhood indoctrination about religion.  I do the same as you though AS, I have my own belief system, which is a kind of mix of many things what work for me, bits of different things I've tried.


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## Vardon (Feb 7, 2015)

I try to live my life each day to the best of my ability. I try to be loving,kind and forgiving. 
And if that is not going to get me past those Pearly Gates, then i guess I am going to the basement. At least i can discard the heavy weather gear


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## Warrigal (Feb 7, 2015)

What if there is no heaven or Hell? Does that mean that all morality goes out the window?
Surely the life that is well lived is it's own reward for the individual and those around him.
What need is there for more?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 7, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It's very hard to shake all that propaganda drummed into us in childhood.  And being catholic meant confession and having to keep 'track' of my sins. I'm not atheist, I'm open-minded and have no idea what is true and what isn't.  I enjoy Buddhist practices, and I also still feel a bit of a pagan with a connection to nature and mythology.  I really have my own belief system that is impossible to label.
> 
> I have a feeling though if I was in plane which was about to crash I'd start saying Hail Marys.



Then you are Agostic... like me.    I confess to saying the Lord's Prayor whenever I take off in an airplane..  Or saying "Thank you Jesus"  when receiving a good result to a bad situation.  However, I don't really believe it... but then again, I don't NOT believe it.

I have looked into the Universal  Unitarian Church.  They are God or Spirit centered... however they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.. nor do they believe in the Trinity.  They believe in ONE Creator or God.. It was attractive because it allowed me to be spiritual and have a belief system, without the Dogma of Christianity.... BUT..... true to my Agnostic self..  I still cannot completely shake the Jesus thing either...  such is my dilema.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Then you are Agostic... like me.    I confess to saying the Lord's Prayor whenever I take off in an airplane..  Or saying "Thank you Jesus"  when receiving a good result to a bad situation.  However, I don't really believe it... but then again, I don't NOT believe it.
> 
> I have looked into the Universal  Unitarian Church.  They are God or Spirit centered... however they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.. nor do they believe in the Trinity.  They believe in ONE Creator or God.. It was attractive because it allowed me to be spiritual and have a belief system, without the Dogma of Christianity.... BUT..... true to my Agnostic self..  I still cannot completely shake the Jesus thing either...  such is my dilema.



I think there probably was a Jesus and he was a good guy, a prophet.  But nothing more.  Today he would be a liberal which makes it funny that all the fundamentalists are right wing. 

I believe there is 'something' but more like the spirits of all living things together are what is 'god/ess'.  I believe in karma and that maybe you get what you deserve in this life or in maybe a reincarnation into the next. I'm open.


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## avrp (Feb 7, 2015)

Why do people care if we believe that Jesus is the way? It seems that some people take offense to it and preach louder and longer than any evangelist.
I don't understand it. I am not offended by the beliefs of others. I'm not a judge. I don't push my faith on anyone..instead, I try to live my life in a way that shines. I mean...actions speak louder than words.
Everyone has the right to believe the way they wish.
Why can't people live their own lives without being criticized for what they believe in. 
Well, I don't think that's going to happen...and that's why there are wars and fighting around the globe.


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## darroll (Feb 7, 2015)

I don't have any guilt. Not that I don't help people, I do.
I went to the Baptist church almost all my life.
The preacher would leave you shaking in your boots (when I was a kid) for a few hours.
I was looking at a girl walking down the street and our preacher said to quit looking at her with lust in your eye's.
I started seeing thru this. I didn't rebel, just took it like a grain of salt.
I also thought about my switching the duck and chicken eggs on the farm. I sinned and are going to hell. Hell is going to be full.
Oh: the baby ducks and chickens figured out who their parents were after the momma duck tried to take a baby chick swimming.
My poor parents.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2015)

You are a naughty one Darroll, yes, your poor parents, LOL!!


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## Raven (Feb 7, 2015)

I always wonder why atheists feel the need to make known their non-beliefs and lack of Faith.
I believe in a higher power, which to me is God, but I would never start a topic on a forum about
religion.  It is personal and private for me.
I don't try to change anyone's mind so why do atheists?
They can believe whatever they wish.

Calling someone  a name like idiot because they have faith is rude and uncalled for.

We lost our youngest son, and that is a wound that never heals and a pain that never 
goes away.
If  believing he is in a better place and at peace helps to keep me somewhat sane and able
to go on each day how does that concern anyone else?

When people are in trouble or danger they want help from God but only until everything is
fine again.  
All of us stumble around and do things that are wrong at times, caused by our choices in life.
Very few people are perfect, at least I don't know any.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2015)

Raven said:


> I always wonder why atheists feel the need to make known their non-beliefs and lack of Faith.



Probably for the same reasons that believers make known _their_ beliefs. 



> I believe in a higher power, which to me is God, but I would never start a topic on a forum about
> religion.  It is personal and private for me.



As long as that works for you, that's fine. Some others feel the need to broadcast their (non-) beliefs.



> I don't try to change anyone's mind so why do atheists?
> They can believe whatever they wish.



But you're comparing one person - yourself - with an entire group of people.



> Calling someone  a name like idiot because they have faith is rude and uncalled for.



Agreed.



> We lost our youngest son, and that is a wound that never heals and a pain that never
> goes away.
> If  believing he is in a better place and at peace helps to keep me somewhat sane and able
> to go on each day how does that concern anyone else?



It doesn't.



> When people are in trouble or danger they want help from God but only until everything is
> fine again.



Funny how that goes, isn't it? 



> All of us stumble around and do things that are wrong at times, caused by our choices in life.
> Very few people are perfect, at least I don't know any.



Well, now you know _me_.


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## Debby (Feb 8, 2015)

Lon said:


> You are not being disrespectful, you are simply stating your opinion and there is nothing wrong with that. Secondly, of course Christians can be respectful people and not idiots, and many can and are deceitful, mean, arrogant, violent,hateful. Now you will probably say that well, they are not really Christians if they act that way. Finally, I just plain don't believe and don't have to prove or disprove anything because I am not trying to convert you or any one else to my way of thinking




Lon, I don't think Misty was at all disrespectful.  She asked a question and suggested that not all Christians are horrible people.  I have lots of Christian Mennonite family members who are lovely people that would be more than willing to help you if you were in a hard place.  And they are farmers and hardworking people and have all managed to raise families with no aid from anyone, so definitely not idiots.  They simply have a different belief system.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 8, 2015)

Debby said:


> Lon, I don't think Misty was at all disrespectful.  She asked a question and suggested that not all Christians are horrible people.  I have lots of Christian Mennonite family members who are lovely people that would be more than willing to help you if you were in a hard place.  And they are farmers and hardworking people and have all managed to raise families with no aid from anyone, so definitely not idiots.  They simply have a different belief system.



By the same token.... this goes for people in ALL belief systems.. There is no corner on the "goodness" market.   The problem arises with so many veiled statements that somehow... "it's just better to be Christian"....


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## darroll (Feb 8, 2015)

A person has to believe in something.... even if it's yourself.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

darroll said:


> A person has to believe in something.... even if it's yourself.



 You are very right there Darroll except that I would have worded it about faith rather than belief.

 Everyone places their faith and trust in something, whether that be money in the bank, in the goodness of mankind, some higher power, scientific knowledge or in your (our) own ability to manage one's own life and protect our families.

 Belief is about facts we are convinced are true, with or without supporting facts. Examples include believing in the truth of various conspiracy theories, that President Obama was born in Kenya, the Virgin birth of Jesus and the moral superiority of one's own nation compared to others.

Faith can shift it's foundation. We call that conversion or losing one's faith (in the religious sense) but everyone anchors their faith to something. Beliefs are more like stories we tell ourselves are true.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 8, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> ... Belief is about facts we are convinced are true, with or without supporting facts. Examples include believing in the truth of various conspiracy theories, that President Obama was born in Kenya, the Virgin birth of Jesus and the moral superiority of one's own nation compared to others.



I always thought that belief without facts was faith ...  



> Faith can shift it's foundation. We call that conversion or losing one's faith (in the religious sense) *but everyone anchors their faith to something*. Beliefs are more like stories we tell ourselves are true.



The anchor you speak of could be as useless as a buoy in a rough sea. I think most people anchor their faith on belief.


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

I see in dictionary definitions that belief and faith mean the same thing and are interchangeable.  

i.e. people have faith in their belief, or people believe in their faith.  There are no facts and there is no anchor - it's all theory and a product of the mind - someone's mind.  Philosophy and religion are merely assortments of ideas.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I see in dictionary definitions that belief and faith mean the same thing and are interchangeable.
> 
> i.e. people have faith in their belief, or people believe in their faith.  There are no facts and there is no anchor - it's all theory and a product of the mind - someone's mind.  Philosophy and religion are merely assortments of ideas.



Reading your post Cookie I surmise that you put your *faith* (aka trust) in dictionaries and that you *believe* that philosophy and religion are analogous concepts.

My statement is based on a hunch, not facts, and I wouldn't bet my house on being correct. I don't *believe* that my statement is correct but I think that there is a possibility that it might be. Cookie may choose to confirm or refute my statement and I may then change my mind.


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

Not trying to change your mind  - dictionaries and reference books are as good as anything, but I don't take them too seriously, as definitions vary.

Since philosophy and religion are products of the human mind I would call them systems of belief which are like a language with it's own alphabet and vocabulary or dogma. That is different from _knowing. _You don't need a religion or faith or belief to know something.  You just do. e.g. "this is sweet, or this is wet".  I know I am breathing, I don't need to believe it.  So I guess I would put belief and faith and trust into the same barrel as the word religion.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Not trying to change your mind  - dictionaries and reference books are as good as anything, but I don't take them too seriously, as definitions vary.
> 
> Since philosophy and religion are products of the human mind I would call them systems of belief which are like a language with it's own alphabet and vocabulary or dogma. That is different from _knowing. _You don't need a religion or faith or belief to know something.  You just do. e.g. "this is sweet, or this is wet".  I know I am breathing, I don't need to believe it.  So I guess I would put belief and faith and trust into the same barrel as the word religion.



I'm playing with words, Cookie. I'm not trying to change your mind either, just exploring ideas.

*Believing* as you do that "philosophy and religion are products of the human mind" you go on to deduce or extrapolate that religion is something that encompasses the concepts of "belief and faith and trust". I would agree with this statement but I *believe* that the same three concepts exist outside of religious systems too. 

You seem to suggest that "knowing" is about things that can be demonstrated or proven. Knowledge is rooted in the senses? What about logic and reasoning?


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

I agree that of course those three concepts exist outside religious systems. The closest thing I can think of is that knowing is based on _direct personal experience._ Eg. I know that I am looking at a bottle of water.  I don't need to think about it. It's there - so yes, the sense of sight. Or when you burn a piece of paper.  You reason that if you do it again, under the same conditions, the paper will burn. That is your logical conclusion.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

You are saying that knowledge is largely based on experience?
What if I say that I have had experiences that inform my faith?

Bali out anytime you think that this dialogue is getting ridiculous. 
It's just a thought experiment and not a debate.


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

It must be.  Since everything we read or learn is based on another person's experience, is written about in textbooks or experiments. I would call it information, not knowledge. We can choose to believe that information (which may or may not be true) or not. Some sources can be trusted or are reputable, others not. 

In the case of medicine, we trust our doctor and believe in western medicine, we have faith in the drug, but we won't actually know if it works until we are cured.
We know the environment is getting ruined because we see the devastation on the beaches with our own eyes and breathe the smog into our lungs.


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> What if I say that I have had experiences that inform my faith?



I'm unfamiliar with this expression. Could you give a short explanation?


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

I prefer not to at length, at least not here, but there is a kind of knowing that seems to come from within, that is unconnected to our belief systems and which is totally surprising and counter intuitive. It rocks the foundations of our certainties.

I was an atheist at one time. I put my faith in science and believed that science would eventually unravel all the mysteries of life, the universe and everything. I argued this position to anyone who would listen to me. One day, at an inservice training session for school counsellors I had an internal experience that spun me around 540o anticlockwise. I was 33 years old at the time.

I am still a person with high regard for science and the scientific method but now I am also a person who puts her faith in the way of life taught by Jesus of Nazareth. That does not mean that I believe everything that I read in the scriptures nor does it mean that I have parked my mind on the steps outside my church. I think for myself and follow my own conscience, which at my age, I hope is an informed one.

I am still the person that I always was but life is brighter and richer now and I believe in the brotherhood/sisterhood of all of humanity. Science and the book of Genesis are in agreement on that point.


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## Cookie (Feb 8, 2015)

I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you for sharing that with me.  I'm glad your faith stems from personal experience and you are an independent thinker.  
I'm not an atheist, nor am I a religious person in that I don't go in for church services, doctrine or scriptures but have in the past been involved in eastern spirituality. I think you are very fortunate to know where you are on this subject and are enjoying a better life because of it. I've enjoyed our discussion and hope it wasn't turning into a debate.  Maybe to continue another time.


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## John C (Feb 8, 2015)

The only thing that bothers me is that Christians are fair game for any criticism, satire, cartoon or anything else that would be forbidden for other religions.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

Read the Beatitudes, John C. 
Christians are told to expect persecution. 
I hardly think that criticism, satire and cartoons count as unbearable assaults.

People in other parts of the world are suffering much worse than these tribulations for being visible Christians.
It is more unbearable to me when people professing to be Christians persecute others who are of a different faith.


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## BobF (Feb 8, 2015)

And for me, I consider that to be a good situation.    All those religions with such criminal outputs just tell me not good for me and not good for most folks.

I was raised as a Christian in a family, my mothers side, that had three generations of ministers as I was first in the family.   Every meal was a time for prayers.   Much longer than a simple thank you.  I and my family did church until in my later days of high school when I started to change churches or skip.   By the time I was in military I was no longer going to church at all.

I have no rage or anger to those that do go to church, it is there choice.   I do think most folks around the world are far too easy on those that over love their religion and kill others that don't practice just the way they think is right.   Too bad so much of that is going on.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 8, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I see in dictionary definitions that belief and faith mean the same thing and are interchangeable.
> 
> i.e. people have faith in their belief, or people believe in their faith.  There are no facts and there is no anchor - it's all theory and a product of the mind - someone's mind.  Philosophy and religion are merely assortments of ideas.



Dictionaries are necessarily limited by their authors' experiences and education and yes, beliefs.

I believe that I have 5 fingers on my right hand, because I can see and feel them. I don't _need_ to have faith that they're there.


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## rt3 (Feb 8, 2015)

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement, but the opposite of a profound truth may well  be another profound truth.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2015)

rt3, you surprise me. Your statement is profound. 
I just don't know exactly what you mean, so it must be very deep indeed. :help1:


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## John C (Feb 8, 2015)

I am humbled by the limitations of the human mind which has enormous capability in the ways and means of survival but is so lacking in understanding when it comes to the mystical and the spiritual.  There are things that the most brilliant intellectuals just can't comprehend because their minds are human and therefore, limited.  When the mind begins trying to comprehend the vastness of space, it just shuts down because astronomers are now talking about such things as an infinite number of universes.  The human mind just cannot grasp the concept of infinity.  Neither can it comprehend everything that belongs to the mystical and spiritual.


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## Butterfly (Feb 8, 2015)

Like Dame Warrigal, I have found what is true for me, and don't feel the need to cram it down anybody else's throat.  It's true for me, and it works for me.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 9, 2015)

rt3 said:


> The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement,



They aren't opposites - they're complementaries. 



> ...but the opposite of a profound truth may well  be another profound truth.



It may also be a profound falsehood.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

Now this is profound. I read it in The Female Eunuch. I think Germaine Greer was quoting John Stuart Mill.



> Everything that is, could be otherwise.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

My head is ready to explode after reading this thread...


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

Your mind is expanding.
Just blow your nose and everything will be OK.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Well, I would but I am afraid of losing some grey matter and I have very little left...


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> They aren't opposites - they're complementaries.
> 
> 
> 
> It may also be a profound falsehood.


all conjectures contain their own inverse function.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

Oooh... I love it when you talk mathematical. :bigwink:


----------



## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

John C said:


> I am humbled by the limitations of the human mind which has enormous capability in the ways and means of survival but is so lacking in understanding when it comes to the mystical and the spiritual.  There are things that the most brilliant intellectuals just can't comprehend because their minds are human and therefore, limited.  When the mind begins trying to comprehend the vastness of space, it just shuts down because astronomers are now talking about such things as an infinite number of universes.  The human mind just cannot grasp the concept of infinity.  Neither can it comprehend everything that belongs to the mystical and spiritual.


There is no limitation to the human mind. The consious looked at itself and created matter. The limitations are that materialism 
' in the philosphy sense, Mills, Plato, Aquinas, has replaced idealism. We worship technology and replace science with what we know to be true.
s


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Now my head is pounding...


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

You need a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down.
Works wonders.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

A Bex?


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

An APC powder that destroyed the kidneys.
Popular with housewives in the 50s and 60s.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks, I'll stick to gin, always good for any complaint...


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

It was the phenacetin that did the kidneys, just take Tylenol.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks to you, too, but the gin tastes better and can bring a smile that these other remedies can't...


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Agreed, especially when infused thru coriander, juniper, rose petals, just enough Vermouth to spoil, and shaken at least 2 mins, (allows the carbon dioxide to go into the alcohol just enough to allow the bubbles to rise )


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Agreed, especially when infused thru coriander, juniper, rose petals, just enough Vermouth to spoil, and shaken at least 2 mins, (allows the carbon dioxide to go into the alcohol just enough to allow the bubbles to rise )



You can wait 2 minutes to drink it??


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Well now that's made we can relax and look at infinity.

No, really. Current concepts of infinity originate from either the material world or the idealism world. 
Take the number line move in either direction until you reach the end add a number, you can never reach the end. this is a take off from Zenos paradox.
Define a function such that for any value in x there exits a y value. Because of the above statement the function is defined as continuous, and goes on until,  wait for it, infinity. 
This is a take of from Euclidian geometry. 
Consider two functions, such that movement along their number lines converge. Wow imaginary numbers what a concept!  Now divide one by the other with no number a zero. Wow a Möbius strip. iteration of rational functions! 
We have moved from Arisotle to Euler. Let's get crazy now and look at Cantor sets.
but these are just continious algebras you protest, what about discontinuous algebras and regardless of how hard infinity is to prove,  I haven't proven -1 times 1 is a negative number, or its converse -1 times -1 is a positive number. Ok, ok but that will take some Ring theory and Topology. I'll pretend you are ready for this . Back to Euler (Einstein was nothing) imagine (a dirty word) a something having no outside or inside a characteristic of 0, an algebraic extension of the möbius, a Klein bottle. Move now to a characteristic or manifold of two and you can morph a coffee cup into a doughnut. Let's move characteristic 11. 

We have now gone from Euler to Hawking and string theory.

to understand infinity in the universe of ideas is to listen to a Bach Canon, an opera of Mozart, an Escher print, anything by Picasso, or watch ants build a bridge , so easy.

finishing the drink now, hope you google some of this stuff.


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## John C (Feb 9, 2015)

Very mature words to live by.  Thanks.


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

You're talking maths again.
Naughty boy, I'm steaming up!

Please talk about the way that some infinite sets are bigger than other infinite sets, because, as we all know, size matters.


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Oboy set theory one of my favorites. Sets, infinite or otherwise, include groups that are part of that group,or not. This "hard" set definition was established by Bertrand Russell, who,by the way scripted an outstanding text science and religion if anyone is listening. Thus sets contain elements by groupings that may be a "union" or an "intersection " 
(oh your bad). However this membership function is interruptus by slight characteristics belong to each group. This logic approach is "soft" in that it ask exactly when does it become a member of that set. Mark Koch (koosh, not the other one ) at Cal. tech and some others have termed this Fuzzy logic, and allows burned computer chips to learn by artificial intelligence how to think. This allows cars to drive themselves, etc, and machines to become sentient. Elon Musk and Hawkings can see, Bill Gates can now see it. So , bend over and kiss humanity, and arguements about religion and such goodbye.


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

:lofl: You win.


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Math is your friend.


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## Debby (Feb 9, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Math is your friend.




Not mine.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 9, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Please talk about the way that some infinite sets are bigger than other infinite sets, because, as we all know, size matters.



How can one infinity be larger or smaller than another infinity? They're both infinite ...


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## Warrigal (Feb 9, 2015)

There are an infinite number of whole numbers (integers) on the number line.

There are also an infinite number of other numbers (fractions) between each whole number.

Think about that. Both sets contain an infinite number of elements but the set of fractions is a more dense set than the set of integers.
We could say that this infinity is greater than the infinity of the set of whole numbers.

When we start talking about concepts like infinity, normal logic becomes rather difficult to follow.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> There are an infinite number of whole numbers (integers) on the number line.
> 
> There are also an infinite number of other numbers (fractions) between each whole number.
> 
> ...



That doesn't make sense - an infinity is an infinity, nothing to do with how dense it is. Maybe it's just that I'm a word person, not a math person.

... although this might explain some of the behaviors of my son, the Master's Math geek ...


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## Ameriscot (Feb 10, 2015)

Okay.  I haven't look at this thread for a while.  And talking about math makes my head hurt.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 10, 2015)

I've always liked the dropped ball theory about infinite numbers. In case you're not familiar it goes like this:

If you drop a ball from any height, before it can reach the floor it first must reach a point halfway from that height to the floor. From this halfway point, to reach the floor, the ball must again reach a point halfway between that point and the floor. As the ball continues falling, the halfway points keep getting smaller but from every point, no matter how small, there is an infinite number of halfway points the ball must reach before it can hit the floor. Therefore the ball will keep falling for an infinite amount of time and will never reach the floor.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I've always liked the dropped ball theory about infinite numbers. In case you're not familiar it goes like this:
> 
> If you drop a ball from any height, before it can reach the floor it first must reach a point halfway from that height to the floor. From this halfway point, to reach the floor, the ball must again reach a point halfway between that point and the floor. As the ball continues falling, the halfway points keep getting smaller but from every point, no matter how small, there is an infinite number of halfway points the ball must reach before it can hit the floor. Therefore the ball will keep falling for an infinite amount of time and will never reach the floor.



have you ever dropped a ball?  Does it ever hit the floor?


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## rkunsaw (Feb 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> have you ever dropped a ball?  Does it ever hit the floor?



:rofl: you just ruined my theory.  Of course that theory is just an example to show that theories that appear correct on paper need to be tested.


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## Vivjen (Feb 10, 2015)

But when the ball hits the floor; it is the effect of gravity ; it is not due to infinity theory; a different force, surely?!


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2015)

Infinity is not a number like all other numbers.
For example - can we say that it is odd or even? Prime or composite? Real or complex? We cannot.

We can't place it on the number line. All we can do is use an arrow to indicate it's direction, not it's location.
The algebra of infinity doesn't make much sense either.

Infinity squared = what? infinity?
Infinity minus 1 does not equal infinity, or does it?


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## rt3 (Feb 10, 2015)

Both of these examples are different forms of Zeno's paradox. All come from an area of math called Number theory. To define a point in 3D space needs 6 points. Must stop thinking of infinity as a place. Won't work, so vectors are needed, new algebra, sort of a combination of an algebra and a geometry was made called Topology., Banach and Hilbert spaces. Relativity  and an insight to infinity was actually solved by Minkowski and a thing called The Lorentz Transform.
transforms, Laplace, Fourier etc transform data in one group of math, to another group without loosing the information.


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## rt3 (Feb 10, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> But when the ball hits the floor; it is the effect of gravity ; it is not due to infinity theory; a different force, surely?!


Not so much as one would think. Infinity is an event, and in the words of Hawking, "There are no black holes". At this point gravity does not allow any information transfer to the outside observer (relativity). This has been termed an event horizon. This forms one of the foundations of string theory.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

My head!  My head!  Owwwwwwwwwwwww why did I open this thread?  I understand waterfalls, breezes, hummingbirds, puppies, why should In deal with this!


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## Falcon (Feb 10, 2015)

It's similar to show what critical mass is. Goes like this:  Let's say you have an enclosed gymnasium floor (say) and fill the floor
with mouse traps, set with a ping pong ball on each trap.  Then, you toss in a ping pong ball.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

Falcon said:


> It's similar to show what critical mass is. Goes like this:  Let's say you have an enclosed gymnasium floor (say) and fill the floor
> with mouse traps, set with a ping pong ball on each trap.  Then, you toss in a ping pong ball.



I saw the video. A Pepsi commercial.


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## rt3 (Feb 10, 2015)

The chain reaction or sustained critical mass is how stars create the matter we see in the Periodic table. What does all this have to do with string theory (quantum mechanic), The Grand Unification Theory and religion (faith)? Quantum reality.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> My head!  My head!  Owwwwwwwwwwwww why did I open this thread?  I understand waterfalls, breezes, hummingbirds, puppies, why should I deal with this!



Because if you take the square root of the number of waterfalls, factor in the square of breezes, take hummingbirds to the 9th exponential and multiply by Puppies! (= puppies factorial)(not puppy _factory_), then you have the Golden Mean, which, as any Mason can tell you, is of the highest importance ...


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

That commercial was interesting as well. Loved the synthesizer background music.

But I get the feeling that it's merely a tribute to the excess sugar energy Pepsi gives you, that you would spend the time and energy setting up something like this. 

If that's how the universe began then God must have been a Pepsi addict.


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## Cookie (Feb 10, 2015)

If you sit inside a wooden pyramid shaped frame for exactly 20 minutes while reciting the words to your favorite rock song backwards, your gonna reach nirvana - but be careful, you might catch fire, so have a bucket of water handy before you go in.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

Ugh, I remember back in the '70's when those little pyramids became popular and seemingly everyone was buying one and sitting in it. Even _Mother Earth News_ was pushing them to raise rabbits!


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## Cookie (Feb 10, 2015)

I remember people would put plants in them or gem stones which were used for 'healing'.  Did the rabbits levitate?  LOL


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2015)

Cookie said:


> If you sit inside a wooden pyramid shaped frame for exactly 20 minutes while reciting the words to your favorite rock song backwards, your gonna reach nirvana - but be careful, you might catch fire, so have a bucket of water handy before you go in.



:lofl: Given that most of these wacky ideas originate in the US, usually California, I deduce that the set of sane Americans is a null set.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> :lofl: Given that most of these wacky ideas originate in the US, usually California, I deduce that the set of sane Americans is a null set.



I don't know any of that stuff... BUT we DID learn from our British friends that you played Revolution 9 from the White Album?  PAUL IS DEAD...


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2015)

Well, that reference went straight through to the keeper.
I have no idea what you are talking about. :dunno:


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## Cookie (Feb 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Given that most of these wacky ideas originate in the US, usually California, I deduce that the set of sane Americans is a null set.



Woah ...... just pulling your leg with a little mocking  ..


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## Meanderer (Feb 10, 2015)

Cookie said:


> If you sit inside a wooden pyramid shaped frame for exactly 20 minutes while reciting the words to your favorite rock song backwards, your gonna reach nirvana - but be careful, you might catch fire, so have a bucket of water handy before you go in.



When you got a minute...
http://www.phoenixinstituteonline.com/2013/08/the-one-minute-pyramid/

THE ONE MINUTE PYRAMID


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Woah ...... just pulling your leg with a little mocking  ..



 :grin: So was I


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## Cookie (Feb 10, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Ugh, I remember back in the '70's when those little pyramids became popular and seemingly everyone was buying one and sitting in it. Even _Mother Earth News_ was pushing them to raise rabbits!



Well, I'm not a complete skeptic, and have actually been in one - so why not?


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

Meanderer said:


> When you got a minute...
> http://www.phoenixinstituteonline.com/2013/08/the-one-minute-pyramid/
> 
> THE ONE MINUTE PYRAMID



Took a lot longer than one minute to read his instructions. Basically you hold a bunch of bamboo poles together with twine and rubber bands. 



Cookie said:


> Well, I'm not a complete skeptic, and have actually been in one - so why not?



As with so many things that Westerners have co-opted from other times and other cultures, I fear that the majority of users are using them wrong, usually because they buy into the over-simplification of them. 

Granted a pyramid has a certain geometric precision and that in itself has a certain power, but I severely doubt that my wearing a pyramid hat will increase my connection with the cosmos. 

Besides, I do MUCH better in circles!


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## Cookie (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh, now that's cute.  Are you using the force, Luke? LOL :yoda:


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## SifuPhil (Feb 10, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Oh, now that's cute.  Are you using the force, Luke? LOL :yoda:



No, I just responded to a Craigslist ad looking for "circle jerks" ... :cower:


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## John C (Feb 11, 2015)

The posts on the subject of infinity are very thought provoking and show that the human mind is resourceful in understanding difficult concepts. Infinity can, in a way, be imagined.  But, if you try to imagine an infinite number of universes, the mind faces overload.


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

That's where science fiction kicks in.


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## rt3 (Feb 11, 2015)

Research Hilbert spaces, Bell paradox, and early Christian esoteric concepts of re-incarnation.


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

I rather think (not believe) that if there is an afterlife it must be something like the wormhole in Deep Space Nine. It would have to be in some realm that is independent of time and space. In other words an existence that is "non linear, non corporeal".

IMO this is also a pretty good metaphor for that which we call God.


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## rt3 (Feb 11, 2015)

Why stop there?

How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? (Aquinas)

how long can a string with no width be to fit inside a circle? (Feynman)

how many iterations in a cantor set to make an image? (Cantor)

how many re-incarnations does it take to create a reality (Enoch)


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## SifuPhil (Feb 12, 2015)

I think I'll take up religion - a lot less thought involved.


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