# Vaccination is optional, but mandatory.



## Becky1951 (Sep 26, 2021)

This was in another forum. I thought sums up the confusion pretty well.   

Vaccination is optional, but mandatory, although voluntary, but you cannot refuse, more precisely you can, but you can be fired, although it is illegal, but the judge decided it is not.
No revaccination needed, although it might be required, but not necessarily, since the vaccine protects for 2 years, but the antibody count will be too low in six months, however you will have some antibodies, but they won't help against the new variants, nonetheless another jab will help grow new antibodies, but we are not sure if that will be the case.
Get vaccinated and you won’t get sick, although you may get sick later, but it won't be as severe, although there are new variants, but you should not get sick, however there is a lot of patients with the antibodies, but you are immune if you already had the disease or were vaccinated, but we are not sure of that, therefore get vaccinated, which is optional, but is going to be mandatory.


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## oldman (Sep 26, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> This was in another forum. I thought sums up the confusion pretty well.
> 
> Vaccination is optional, but mandatory, although voluntary, but you cannot refuse, more precisely you can, but you can be fired, although it is illegal, but the judge decided it is not.
> No revaccination needed, although it might be required, but not necessarily, since the vaccine protects for 2 years, but the antibody count will be too low in six months, however you will have some antibodies, but they won't help against the new variants, nonetheless another jab will help grow new antibodies, but we are not sure if that will be the case.
> Get vaccinated and you won’t get sick, although you may get sick later, but it won't be as severe, although there are new variants, but you should not get sick, however there is a lot of patients with the antibodies, but you are immune if you already had the disease or were vaccinated, but we are not sure of that, therefore get vaccinated, which is optional, but is going to be mandatory.


Wait a minute. I read somewhere (and will search for it) that anyone that had COVID (natural immunity) would be protected against the Delta variant.


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## oldman (Sep 26, 2021)

I did find this: "This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer-lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.”

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ainst-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx


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## suds00 (Sep 26, 2021)

so the answer is to get the disease and hope that you're not hospitalized or worse. then you may have a strong antibody response. most vaccines require a booster. unless you're planning to get sick it's wise to get the series of vaccinations.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 26, 2021)

oldman said:


> I did find this: "This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer-lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.”
> 
> https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...ainst-the-Delta-variant-than-vaccination.aspx


Yes it does, which is why those with natural immunity shouldn't be forced to have the vaccine in order to keep their jobs. 

My post was about the zig zagging information and the vaccine mandate.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 26, 2021)

oldman said:


> Wait a minute. I read somewhere (and will search for it) that anyone that had COVID (natural immunity) would be protected against the Delta variant.


Natural immunity is all over the map ….it is very inconsistent..so much so that the Red Cross will not take convalescing plasma from you if it is more than 6 months from covid .plus they test it with a very complex anti body neutralizing test .

that is not the simple , cheap antibody test we get that just confirms contact with the virus.

most labs cannot do the actual immunity testing nor will most insurers pay for it since it is quite expensive


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## oldman (Sep 26, 2021)

mathjak107 said:


> Natural immunity is all over the map ….it is very inconsistent..so much so that the Red Cross will not take convalescing plasma from you if it is more than 6 months from covid .plus they test it with a very complex anti body neutralizing test .
> 
> that is not the simple , cheap antibody test we get that just confirms contact with the virus


OK, I see you are alive. I read John's post and I thought maybe you had past away. You are alive, right?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 26, 2021)

Sure am ….still have some  long lasting covid effects but back  to running and the gym.
it took 8 months to be able to run again


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## oldman (Sep 26, 2021)

mathjak107 said:


> Natural immunity is all over the map ….it is very inconsistent..so much so that the Red Cross will not take convalescing plasma from you if it is more than 6 months from covid .plus they test it with a very complex anti body neutralizing test .
> 
> that is not the simple , cheap antibody test we get that just confirms contact with the virus.
> 
> most labs cannot do the actual immunity testing nor will most insurers pay for it since it is quite expensive


I signed a release at the hospital when I left that gave them permission to take blood from me. They only took a half of a pint.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 26, 2021)

The Red Cross stopped the convalescing  plama program …they have more plasma then they can use.

the problem is it is only good in the early stages of covid .

the early stages generally are nothing you would even treat .

my wife and I said the first week of covid that if this is covid we had worse colds .

about the 10th day in all hell broke loose …. I was brought in by ambulance and she followed in three days later .

the hospital said most of us show up 8-12 days in when it really replicates and gets in to the cells .

so by the time you know you are really getting it good it is to late for using the plasma …so at this point they are not taking donors


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## Jules (Sep 26, 2021)

@mathjak107   Glad that you and your wife made it.  It sounds like a long, long haul.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 26, 2021)

Covid effects so many organs .
Both of us out of no where have high blood pressure now and never had it pre covid .

my sugar has been very high …pre covid  one milligram a day of glimpride had me at prediabetic levels . Now I have been up again .

I go Tuesday for my A1c


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## Alligatorob (Sep 26, 2021)

mathjak107 said:


> Natural immunity is all over the map ….it is very inconsistent


Is there a reliable way to measure immunity or natural immunity?  

If so it would seem reasonable to treat those with natural immunity that is as good or better than the vaccinated as if they had been vaccinated.

I read the Israeli study and it was pretty convincing on the value of natural immunity.

I got my immunity from the vaccine, and highly recommend that others do as well.  Much better than getting the virus.  

However if someone has had Covid and acquired natural immunity that should be recognized.  If there is a reliable way to do it.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 26, 2021)

mathjak107 said:


> Covid effects so many organs .
> Both of us out of no where have high blood pressure now and never had it pre covid .
> 
> my sugar has been very high …pre covid  one milligram a day of glimpride had me at prediabetic levels . Now I have been up again .
> ...


There probably is no study on it, but wondering if those who were vaccinated and still caught Covid had any of those or other after effects.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 26, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> wondering if those who were vaccinated and still caught Covid had any of those or other after effects.


Good question.  My wife (and maybe myself) are in that position.  Feeling well recovered now.  

Months after getting the Pfizer vaccines we both got the Covid symptoms.  She tested positive, twice, so we are pretty sure she had it.  On the other hand I tested negative, twice also, so I don't know.  My symptoms were very mild and only lasted a few days.  Her symptoms were worse, but still mild compared to a lot of people, no more than a mild case of the flu.  However her sense of taste and odor are only now coming back, several weeks after the other symptoms disappeared.  I never completely lost taste and odor, but for a few days they were mostly gone.  Hope we are now in the clear...


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## Lawrence00 (Sep 26, 2021)

I was fortunate to have had the Red Cross test my blood twice, for free, for the full set of antibodies, because I donated twice. I was full positive both times, and the last time was June 2021, which was 18 months after I had covid.

They still test all blood donors for full natural sets of antibodies, but don't inform the donor anymore of the results. I expect because of political pressure.


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## Jules (Sep 26, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> However if someone has had Covid and acquired natural immunity that should be recognized. If there is a reliable way to do it.


And is there a reliable way to predict how long natural immunity will last?


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## Lawrence00 (Sep 26, 2021)

Jules said:


> And is there a reliable way to predict how long natural immunity will last?



They can test me today. And both the existence of, and the density of my full set of antibodies, can be determined. Thousands of years of evolution has made this possible. It is my firm belief that worldwide testing of antibodies has been suppressed, because of corporations fighting each other for profits, not the common human good.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 26, 2021)

Jules said:


> And is there a reliable way to predict how long natural immunity will last?


I doubt any predictions like this, neither for natural immunity or vaccine immunity exist with any accuracy.  Only testing and time will tell.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 27, 2021)

Jules said:


> And is there a reliable way to predict how long natural immunity will last?


No , there is no way to tell..they can do a complex , expensive test that will show up to that moment but that is as far as it goes .

but like I sad most labs can not do that testing nor will insurers cover it without good reason .


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## mathjak107 (Sep 27, 2021)

Lawrence00 said:


> I was fortunate to have had the Red Cross test my blood twice, for free, for the full set of antibodies, because I donated twice. I was full positive both times, and the last time was June 2021, which was 18 months after I had covid.
> 
> They still test all blood donors for full natural sets of antibodies, but don't inform the donor anymore of the results. I expect because of political pressure.


They do not take donors for convalescing plasma anymore ….nor do they do the neutralizing  anti body test …..the only antibody  tests done routinely  now are the antibody binding tests which are the routine ones we get that show you had contacts with the virus but they tell you nothing about how effective your immunity is


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## chic (Sep 27, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> This was in another forum. I thought sums up the confusion pretty well.
> 
> Vaccination is optional, but mandatory, although voluntary, but you cannot refuse, more precisely you can, but you can be fired, although it is illegal, but the judge decided it is not.
> No revaccination needed, although it might be required, but not necessarily, since the vaccine protects for 2 years, but the antibody count will be too low in six months, however you will have some antibodies, but they won't help against the new variants, nonetheless another jab will help grow new antibodies, but we are not sure if that will be the case.
> Get vaccinated and you won’t get sick, although you may get sick later, but it won't be as severe, although there are new variants, but you should not get sick, however there is a lot of patients with the antibodies, but you are immune if you already had the disease or were vaccinated, but we are not sure of that, therefore get vaccinated, which is optional, but is going to be mandatory.


This would be hilarious were it not so true and so divisive. People are seriously hating others over this issue. The unvaccinated are becoming a target for future genocide though those who would promote it will be the first to deny it. It's so crazy I can't believe I'm living through such a time as this.


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## Pink Biz (Sep 27, 2021)

chic said:


> This would be hilarious were it not so true and so divisive. People are seriously hating others over this issue. *The unvaccinated are becoming a target for future genocide* though those who would promote it will be the first to deny it. It's so crazy I can't believe I'm living through such a time as this.


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## Pepper (Sep 27, 2021)

chic said:


> This would be hilarious were it not so true and so divisive. People are seriously hating others over this issue. The *unvaccinated are becoming a target for future genocide* though those who would promote it will be the first to deny it. It's so crazy I can't believe I'm living through such a time as this.


If they can catch you to kill you, you could be caught & vaccinated.  No need for genocides, how silly, sorry.


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## win231 (Sep 27, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> This was in another forum. I thought sums up the confusion pretty well.
> 
> Vaccination is optional, but mandatory, although voluntary, but you cannot refuse, more precisely you can, but you can be fired, although it is illegal, but the judge decided it is not.
> No revaccination needed, although it might be required, but not necessarily, since the vaccine protects for 2 years, but the antibody count will be too low in six months, however you will have some antibodies, but they won't help against the new variants, nonetheless another jab will help grow new antibodies, but we are not sure if that will be the case.
> Get vaccinated and you won’t get sick, although you may get sick later, but it won't be as severe, although there are new variants, but you should not get sick, however there is a lot of patients with the antibodies, but you are immune if you already had the disease or were vaccinated, but we are not sure of that, therefore get vaccinated, which is optional, but is going to be mandatory.


_"Masks are useless; don't bother with them," _(said Dr. Fauci).
_"Masks offer the best protectio_n," (said Dr. Fauci later, when he was told to say that)


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## suds00 (Sep 28, 2021)

win231 said:


> _"Masks are useless; don't bother with them," _(said Dr. Fauci).
> _"Masks offer the best protectio_n," (said Dr. Fauci later, when he was told to say that)


he reconsidered his stance as more information became available. it's a new virus. approaches to it's control change in time.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 28, 2021)

suds00 said:


> he reconsidered his stance as more information became available.* it's a new virus. approaches to it's control change in time.*


The bolded is something people always need to be reminded of, thanks suds00.


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## Sunny (Sep 28, 2021)

Exactly. It's truly amazing how many people in this day and age still don't understand this basic fact about science.  Nothing is carved in stone; research keeps revealing new or more refined facts, and all we can count on are the latest, *scientifically proven, *facts.  When new findings indicate a change, they are revealed, not showing that the scientists are "wrong," but just that new evidence has turned up. Or maybe just that the virus has evolved.

So, at first we were advised to keep washing everything all the time. I wore plastic gloves when I made my masked shopping trips to buy groceries. Then, more research showed that the virus doesn't really hang out on hard surfaces, not for long, anyway. We are much less likely to catch it from touching items in a grocery store than from going unmasked, because the virus mostly spreads through the air from one person to another. So I stopped using the gloves, but still wear a mask. And I still wash my hands as soon as I return home.

This doesn't prove that the scientists didn't know what they were talking about. At the beginning of the pandemic, it was just good common sense to try to sanitize everything. Then, more findings taught us more about how the virus spreads. That is how science is supposed to work.

If the vaccine isn't 100% effective, but research discovered that over 99% of those who have received both doses are protected from severe, fatal cases of the disease, the public was told that. And if a new vaccine turns out to be even better than that, it will be a blessing to tell the public about the latest findings. Not a basis for adolescent snickering from those who are still living in the dark ages, or are just stubbornly clinging to opinions that were appropriate a year ago, but no longer are.

Weirdly, the anti-vaxxer movement has become political, and has caused thousands of horrifying and unnecessary deaths. All caused by turning  "scientist" into a form of insult.


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## win231 (Sep 28, 2021)

suds00 said:


> he reconsidered his stance as more information became available. it's a new virus. approaches to it's control change in time.


ROFLOL.  A "Highly-Respected" medical expert needed more information about something he learned in 1st-grade medical school - whether viruses go through a cheap paper mask.


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## suds00 (Sep 28, 2021)

at the time everyone in the us thought that that persons wearing a mask were more at risk from air-borne virus particles ;including 1 st year med students .the masks were not made of cheap paper. science evolves.


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## Butterfly (Sep 28, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> This was in another forum. I thought sums up the confusion pretty well.
> 
> Vaccination is optional, but mandatory, although voluntary, but you cannot refuse, more precisely you can, but you can be fired, although it is illegal, but the judge decided it is not.
> No revaccination needed, although it might be required, but not necessarily, since the vaccine protects for 2 years, but the antibody count will be too low in six months, however you will have some antibodies, but they won't help against the new variants, nonetheless another jab will help grow new antibodies, but we are not sure if that will be the case.
> Get vaccinated and you won’t get sick, although you may get sick later, but it won't be as severe, although there are new variants, but you should not get sick, however there is a lot of patients with the antibodies, but you are immune if you already had the disease or were vaccinated, but we are not sure of that, therefore get vaccinated, which is optional, but is going to be mandatory.



The truth of the matter is that employers have the right to set work requirements for employees, particularly in the area of health and safety, whether it be protective clothing or shoes or vaccines.  This is nothing new.   Some places I've worked have
required flu vaccines to work there.  Several vaccines are required for children to attend public schools.  Many vaccines are required for travel into some foreign countries.  The armed forces have always required members to have many vaccines.

And the vaccines aren't mandatory, nobody is going to strap you down and vaccinate you; however, if you want to work for Joe's Plumbing you have to be vaccinated,  If not, you can go work somewhere else.

As to the changing conventional wisdom about how much vaccines help which people, it changes as we learn more, and of course recommendations change as knowledge increases or changes.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 28, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> The truth of the matter is that employers have the right to set work requirements for employees, particularly in the area of health and safety, whether it be protective clothing or shoes or vaccines.  This is nothing new.   Some places I've worked have
> required flu vaccines to work there.  Several vaccines are required for children to attend public schools.  Many vaccines are required for travel into some foreign countries.  The armed forces have always required members to have many vaccines.
> 
> And the vaccines aren't mandatory, nobody is going to strap you down and vaccinate you; however, if you want to work for Joe's Plumbing you have to be vaccinated,  If not, you can go work somewhere else.
> ...


Good post Butterfly thanks.  I never use kennels, but if you want your dog to stay in a kennel while you're on vacation, most of them demand that he has a Bordetella vaccination.  You either get your dog the shot and proof of vaccination, or leave him with a neighbor or family member.  The establishment has the right to set their own health guidelines, you can comply or go elsewhere.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 29, 2021)

The problem we are running in to is when the original precedents were set by the court back in the 1900s for the ability of states to set mandates , we had no such things as the ada ,health information acts and religious exemptions .

so this is all uncharted territory


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## oldman (Oct 2, 2021)

suds00 said:


> so the answer is to get the disease and hope that you're not hospitalized or worse. then you may have a strong antibody response. most vaccines require a booster. unless you're planning to get sick it's wise to get the series of vaccinations.


As stupid as that sounds, it may not be such a bad idea. I had my antibodies checked in the hospital when I had COVID, but I never knew what that was all about, so I never asked any questions, like; how long will the immunity last? I don't know.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 2, 2021)

oldman said:


> As stupid as that sounds, it may not be such a bad idea. I had my antibodies checked in the hospital when I had COVID, but I never knew what that was all about, so I never asked any questions, like; how long will the immunity last? I don't know.


They can’t tell you how long it can last .

the proper testing can only tell you where you stand that point in time


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## oldman (Oct 2, 2021)

mathjak107 said:


> They can’t tell you how long it can last .
> 
> the proper testing can only tell you where you stand that point in time


Back in January, I knew very little about the virus, so it never crossed my mind to ask about antibodies. Today, however, I would like to know if I still have antibodies. I did read somewhere that antibodies (in general) can last a lifetime, like the polio vaccine does.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 2, 2021)

oldman said:


> Back in January, I knew very little about the virus, so it never crossed my mind to ask about antibodies. Today, however, I would like to know if I still have antibodies. I did read somewhere that antibodies (in general) can last a lifetime, like the polio vaccine does.


there is not enough history on these vaccines to know how long .

flu shots have to be done yearly as immunity to that virus is poor .

the chicken pox virus is no longer contained by the body as we age which is what shingles are


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## Don M. (Oct 2, 2021)

Perhaps, 10 years from now, we will have a better idea of just What this virus is, and how to control it.  Presently, the data is changing at a pace that makes any "certainty" almost impossible.  If masks, vaccinations, and social distancing can reduce the chances of infection, that is about all that people can do to avoid the spread/growth of this disease.


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## suds00 (Oct 3, 2021)

oldman said:


> As stupid as that sounds, it may not be such a bad idea. I had my antibodies checked in the hospital when I had COVID, but I never knew what that was all about, so I never asked any questions, like; how long will the immunity last? I don't know.


that was sarcasm


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## win231 (Oct 3, 2021)

_"Despite having the highest vaccination rates in the country, there are constant reminders for most New England states of just how vicious the delta variant of COVID-19 is.
Hospitals across the region are seeing full intensive care units and staff shortages are starting to affect care. Public officials are pleading with the unvaccinated to get the shots. Health care workers are coping with pent-up demand for other kinds of care that had been delayed by the pandemic."_

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrgDuljv1lhMm8ALmBXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1633300452/RO=10/RU=https://apnews.com/d25aae90b2dda65b3d1c2c0d5d00156c/RK=2/RS=jhAhPGDM6zkP77PBDtfiOfFr_mA-

There's a....contradiction in there, somewhere.
_"Hospitals are full of vaccinated people with Covid."
"Public officials are pleading with the unvaccinated to get the shots."      _


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