# Hands up 'Who goes to church?'



## toffee (Jan 12, 2020)

*Last time I went was my sisters funeral' few years now -never been keen on weddings -
and so i dont really go unless really called too...i have nothing against the church'  i do
find them rather calming when iam in there ...

So do go often especially on a Sunday ' or did you stop attending for a reason .*


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 12, 2020)

I usually say that "the last time I went to church, they called me names and threw water at me."   As a child I was dragged to church by Scottish Presbyterian parents and I hated it.  I never had any real belief in religion.

I only got married in church because there was not the broad choice of venues that there are today.  In Scotland, Humanist weddings now outnumber all others.  My children have never been baptised and since getting married (46 years ago) I've only been to church for a couple of weddings and funerals.

I'm only aware of one person in the village who attends church regularly. The village church closed many years ago. The nearest village has both Church of Scotland and Episcopal  churches.  I don't think they have big congregations.


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## moviequeen1 (Jan 12, 2020)

I  usually go every Sun {weather permitting} to our early service which starts at 8:15
Its held in our chapel,we have communion each wk,no choir the service is over around 9


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## rkunsaw (Jan 12, 2020)

I never go to church. I didn't go often growing up and always hated it.


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## treeguy64 (Jan 12, 2020)

As a ULC Ordained Minister, I'm good at carrying on my own services, right at home, when the spirit hits me.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 12, 2020)

I religiously avoid church services.

I grew up in a church-going family and attended regularly until I was old enough to make up my own mind about such things.

When I was a tweenager, I remember having to put green stamps in books for my mother on those Sundays when I didn't go to church with her.  I never told my mother that instead of licking them I used a sponge to wet them.

I think the last time I was in a church was for a funeral in the late 80s early 90s.

I have nothing against attending church or those that get some comfort from it, it's just not for me and my personal beliefs.


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## Gary O' (Jan 12, 2020)

At times, I think about it

At times I go

....then remember why I don't


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## Ronni (Jan 12, 2020)

Nope.

I was raised Catholic, and attended church every Sunday with my parents. Once I left home I never went back.  I've been in churches over the years, for weddings, baptisms, funerals etc., but don't go to routine services.

While I am not particularly religious, I am very spiritual.


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## Ronni (Jan 12, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> As a ULC Ordained Minister, I'm good at carrying on my own services, right at home, when the spirit hits me.



No disrespect intended @treeguy64, just a question.  Was this an online certification?  

I have several friends who became ordained through online certifications, and now, at least in Tennessee (I have no idea if this is a State or Federal mandate) those certifications are no longer valid.  The marriages they performed were legal, they just can't perform them anymore.  At least not legally.


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## 911 (Jan 12, 2020)

Usually, we go on Saturday night to mass, but if my wife gets up in time, I enjoy the 6:00 a.m. Sunday morning mass the best. The Sunday choir is better than the Saturday evening choir. I truly enjoy and am inspired by our choir singing the music that I haven’t heard, especially at Christmas time.


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 12, 2020)

A young boy was staring at the pictures of veterans on the wall outside of church..The pastor saw him and asked the boy what he was staring at? The boy asked "who are these men in the picture?" The pastor replied that they where men who had died during the service. Then the boy asked "8:00AM or 10:00AM Serivce"?


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 12, 2020)

Sounds like the minister whose sermon went on for ages, when he suddenly stopped and said, "sorry my watch seems to have stopped".  The organist looked up and said, "No problem Reverend,  there's a calendar in the vestry".


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 12, 2020)

I was raised Catholic and because the school was close to where we live, my mother sent me to Catholic school for 8 years.  During that time I was in church for one reason or another 7 days a week.  Luckily my parents weren't very religious so I didn't grow up in a house like that.  Once I went to public high school, I left organized religion behind and never looked back.  I understand that some need or want that in their lives, that's their choice and I respect it, but no, it's not for me.  Years back when my sister came to visit, I took her to church a couple of times on Sunday, she still is a practicing Catholic.  We were married by a justice of the peace, not in a church, by choice.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

Go to Bible Church: Preacher reads straight from the bible--not his opinion, rather what the bible says.
He will attempt to explain difficult passages, but immediately returns to the bible.
I do not go to church to hears opinions, I go to hear the 'word.'

I know all about sin, really difficult to live spiritually, but I feel a bit cleaner when I go to church.


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## rgp (Jan 12, 2020)

I can count on one hand +/- the number of times I have been in church. Don't see me starting anytime soon.


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## StarSong (Jan 12, 2020)

I went to church regularly during my youth, stepped away for about 15 years, then returned for at least 20 years.  After a time I became very disillusioned with organized religion and left it altogether.  Hubby and I miss our friends terribly, but not enough to sit through an hour of exclusionary messages that we simply don't believe.


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## win231 (Jan 12, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I religiously avoid church services.
> 
> I grew up in a church-going family and attended regularly until I was old enough to make up my own mind about such things.
> 
> ...


Nor mine.  What you describe is probably the case with most people; they'll participate in religious activities because they were brought up that way, then they'll do what they want when they get older.
My parents were Jewish.  They were not especially religious; they liked the "cultural" aspect of it.  My mom was a Hebrew school teacher & I frequently heard Rabbis scolding her for "not giving her children a Jewish upbringing."  It always made me laugh.
The couple of times I was taken to synagogue, I was amused at how many people were napping during the Rabbi's sermon, but how quickly they woke up when refreshments were served.
There is nothing wrong with people doing whatever gives them comfort.


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## twinkles (Jan 12, 2020)

i use to go to church all the time when i was younger---
i went a couple of times here in georgia they greeted you real nice then the next time you went they acted like they didnt know you-- the next day their knocking on your door


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## CinnamonSugar (Jan 12, 2020)

“Re-verted” to the Catholic Church about 14 yrs ago.  Grateful to be able to receive communion, find peace after a busy week, and enjoy the beautiful music


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## Ruthanne (Jan 12, 2020)

I haven't been to church since some time in the 90s when a minister friend invited me to his church.  Haven't been there since that one time.

I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic school for the first four grades of school.  I really couldn't stand the church services and it was torture sitting through them because they were in Latin and lasted for 2 hours or so.  

I decided church is not for me.


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## Knight (Jan 12, 2020)

I don't go to a church that is associated with a religion. On Sundays the casinos have champagne brunch. Many people eat then go pray their wagers will produce heavenly results.  Could that be considered belief in something not visible ?


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## fuzzybuddy (Jan 12, 2020)

I'm an atheist so..........


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## Lc jones (Jan 12, 2020)

No longer, but I am a Christian, read the Bible daily and watch Dr. Charles Stanley almost every Sunday. He’s a wonderful pastor/teacher of the Word.


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## gennie (Jan 12, 2020)

I went regularly for many years but stopped when the hypocrisy became too much.  Modern religion has little to do with faith.


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## Manatee (Jan 12, 2020)

The last wedding we went to was on the beach.  It could not have been better.
About 30 years ago we attended 2 different weddings in a county park.  They were under the trees overlooking Old Tampa Bay.  Very nice.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

Unfortunately, there is a lot of validity in genie's post but- it is not the church, it's those in the church.
Bible study in private is sometimes the best route.


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## win231 (Jan 12, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I religiously avoid church services.
> 
> I grew up in a church-going family and attended regularly until I was old enough to make up my own mind about such things.
> 
> ...


Great pun!


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## DaveA (Jan 12, 2020)

Like many here, I attended church regularly as a youth, when possible during military service, and when I met and married my wife.  We attended fairly regularly when the kids were growing up.  Sunday school and some summer activities.

As the kids grew and became young adults, we all drifted away from regular attendance. None of us had any bitter feelings towards our little church and still don't today. Of our 4 kids and 13 grandkids, only one grand-daughter is closely aligned with a church and she, her husband, and their 3 little ones are quite active in their church.  When we visit them a few times each year, in Connecticut, we attend church with them.

We always enjoy the service and the music but not enough to take up regular attendance here at home.  To each his own but I have no criticism of churches and those who derive comfort from them.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

Sidebar-off topic, I suppose
Turner Classic Films: "Black Narcissus" 1947, Story of Nuns in Himalayan Mission.  
Hollywood and religion do not mix.; however, some of the epic films are good-Mel Gibson's effort is well worth the watch.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

As a child church attendance mandatory-ug!
age 20-30, raise hell
age 40--50 wonder?
There has to be something I'm missing?  Maybe, just maybe...


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## CrackerJack (Jan 12, 2020)

gennie said:


> I went regularly for many years but stopped when the hypocrisy became too much.  *Modern religion has little to do with faith.*




 I do agree to a point. Organised religion is man made and to me is a crutch, a pillar of support to one's personal faith and in Christianity, God as  they see and believe in a Diety. I do feel that religion as we know it is flawed and by human beings, who put many dictates into the religion they profess to follow. Religious doctrines can and do cause dissention and hatred and misunderstanding imo.


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## Butterfly (Jan 12, 2020)

I am a practicing Lutheran.


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## PopsnTuff (Jan 12, 2020)

Its been 20 years ago in the Methodist sect but was raised Catholic....no more religious belief for me.....very spiritual tho....there's a big difference....


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 12, 2020)

I'm a Humanist.  Is that a religion these days ?


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## 911 (Jan 12, 2020)

jerry r. garner said:


> Unfortunately, there is a lot of validity in genie's post but- it is not the church, it's those in the church.
> Bible study in private is sometimes the best route.


You are pretty close to what our Priest just talked about before Christmas. He was speaking about “the church” and he told us to keep in mind that “the church” is just another building. People “are” the church, not the building.

As for Bible study, those of us that are Catholic know that Bible study inside the church is available 2-3 times per week. Each week, we get a list of passages to read for the week. I am not exactly a true believer in the Old Testament, but the New Testament has many more scriptures in it that I can believe in. I do believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I do believe that he created miracles. 

It never hurts for any of us to believe. It doesn’t take any effort, money or even your attendance in church. All you need to do is to say to yourself, “I believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as my Savior.”


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## Judycat (Jan 12, 2020)

I think when you notice too much repetition in the service and the message it is time to move on.


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## 911 (Jan 12, 2020)

CrackerJack said:


> I do agree to a point. Organised religion is man made and to me is a crutch, a pillar of support to one's personal faith and in Christianity, God as  they see and believe in a Diety. I do feel that religion as we know it is flawed and by human beings, who put many dictates into the religion they profess to follow. Religious doctrines can and do cause dissention and hatred and misunderstanding imo.


Each one of us decides for ourself if we are going to follow that path.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

Churches can be way off center.
Congregations  can be off center
But, here's the rub: Paul states, 'Do not forsake the assembly.'
Keep looking till you find a church you can agree with, if they get weird, look further.


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## 911 (Jan 12, 2020)

Judycat said:


> I think when you notice too much repetition in the service and the message it is time to move on.


I have never noticed this in our church. We have a really good man for our Priest. He really knows how to hold your attention. He is different than most Priests. He doesn’t just read out of the Bible and pray. Our service is not quite what I would call a conventional service. He came to us over 25 years ago and we were his first parish. He has even condemned other Priests who have been found guilty of child molestation, which is something that most Dioceses has directed their Priests to avoid mentioning. 

Our Priest also does community service work. He told us that he loves making his mother’s recipe for homemade ham and bean soup for the local volunteer fire company’s annual rummage, soup and bake sale. Let me tell you, his soup is grrreat! He also holds a golf tournament benefit with the proceeds going to the local food bank.


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## Warrigal (Jan 12, 2020)

From my late teens to age 33 I was an atheist, then one day I was not. It took me another two years before I ventured inside a church. I found a home there and stayed. 

I take the children out with me during the grown up part of the Sunday service and, if they are old enough, I educate them. If not, I care for them while their parents are in church. 

I host a weekly bible study in my home and we have a progressive view of the scriptures. Our minister is able to shed light on historical background and Jewish culture that help us to understand the meaning and intent of the writings. We are in no way fundamentalists.

I also serve on the management committee of our church sponsored long day care centre which is run on a not for profit basis. Twice a week I volunteer at the church run playgroup. I provide and serve morning tea for the children and their parents or other carers.  I love doing this.

For me the most important bible story is the one that follows immediately after the question, "Who is my neighbour  ?". My personal aim is to serve God by serving people. I am very happy in the service.

Church is not a building and service is not something that happens inside a building every Sunday.


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## ronaldj (Jan 12, 2020)

attend regular and work in sunday school with children every week.


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## C'est Moi (Jan 12, 2020)

I am not a church-goer, and I don't see the need to insult those who are.   That was really tacky.

ETA--I see the post I quoted has been removed, so now this doesn't even make sense.


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## Repondering (Jan 12, 2020)

I was raised in a church going family but immediately lapsed when I left for college.  At age 52 I wanted to be part of the church community again and joined the local Presbyterian Church.  I've been an active member these last 15 years.  They're good people there, the church has multiple public service missions, our pastor is the right guy in the right job, I attend every Sunday and being part of the congregation is an important part of my life.


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## chic (Jan 12, 2020)

I was sent to parochial school for 8 years and they scared me to death with all the talk of sin, sudden death and the devil. I left weekly services at age 16. It was much more peaceful for me to spend time in nature where my idea of what God was actually existed. 

Now I go to weddings and lots of funerals but no more weekly services. Worship is a private thing to me.


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## jerry old (Jan 12, 2020)

*                    Some keep the Sabbath going to Church – (236)                *

                                                   By Emily Dickinson 

Some keep the Sabbath going to Church –
I keep it, staying at Home –
With a Bobolink for a Chorister –
And an Orchard, for a Dome –

Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice –
I, just wear my Wings –
And instead of tolling the Bell, for Church,
Our little Sexton – sings.

God preaches, a noted Clergyman –
And the sermon is never long,
So instead of getting to Heaven, at last –
I’m going, all along.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Emily was a strange girl, very strange.  Her father was the treasurer in their church; everyone in the house went to church
except Emily.  No One quite knew to do with this strange girl.
Later in life she changed her opinions, but had become a recluse unable to leave her house.


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## nan (Jan 12, 2020)

No, religion is too confusing.


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## Gary O' (Jan 12, 2020)

jerry r. garner said:


> Churches can be way off center.
> Congregations can be off center
> But, here's the rub: Paul states, 'Do not forsake the assembly.'
> Keep looking till you find a church you can agree with, if they get weird, look further.


There is joy there...some

a little story; 


A while back, wife and I went to church

It’s refreshing, sometimes, to attend a church

Sometimes

Anyway, there was a song service
I don’t sing
Can’t
Tried
It’s not considered singing
So, there I was, mouthing the words.

A few rows back, a middle aged gentleman was singing his heart out.
A tenor, I believe.
I also believe he was a butcher by trade.
Cause he was doin’ a job of it on that song.
His voice, his voice literally hurt my good ear.

Seems there are several stanzas to ‘He Lives’.
He got louder with each one.
At the last of the chorus to the last stanza I looked back...

Had to

There he was, tears streaming down his face.

Yet,
His face....beaming

He wasn’t a good looking guy

He literally wrecked the hymn




I’ve seen a lot of beauty
A lot
In nature, mostly

But this

Was the most beautiful thing

I have ever seen


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## Warrigal (Jan 12, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> There is joy there...some
> 
> a little story;
> 
> ...



 Church is the only place where I feel entitled to sing, despite all my musical limitations.
I am encouraged by this song by Bill Staines. Sung by Celtic Thunder


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## Wren (Jan 13, 2020)

I’m not particularly religious, and don’t attend church services but occasionally  I visit a simple little church to light a candle or just sit alone for a while, I find the atmosphere calming


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## terry123 (Jan 13, 2020)

Love the Episcopal services and attend as much as I can.  When I cannot attend I follow the services online and feel like I am there.  About once a month I do confession.  I get great peace from the services.  During Lent I try to give up some habit that is not good for me.  Love morning prayer and communion services.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 13, 2020)

In spite of not attending church services, I do like seeing old churches for their history and architecture. There were several old ones near where I lived in Hampshire.  A couple were literally in the middle of fields.  One , St.Huberts, dated from the 11th. century and has wall paintings from the 14th century..


A few miles away is the church of St.Martin,  still as far as I know, lit by candles.

But when it comes to viewing Architecture, Mrs.L and daughter were reused entry to one church in Bologna (purely to see the architecture) because the weren't "properly" dressed.  I wonder if Jesus had a dress code and turned people away?   No problem at other churches in the city.


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## StarSong (Jan 13, 2020)

I would go to a church that emphasized Jesus' messages of kindness, humility, service, acceptance and caring for one another, rather than Paul's words, or most modern religion's laser focus: Bring _your money_, and your friends and _their money_ to our church (the only one true church) lest ye be damned. Give till it hurts, then give some more. After all, the Lord loves a cheerful giver. As does Joel Osteen and his ilk.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 13, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I would go to a church that emphasized Jesus' messages of kindness, humility, service, acceptance and caring for one another, rather than Paul or most modern religion's laser focus: Bring _your money_, and your friends and _their money_ to our church (the only one true church) lest ye be damned. Give till it hurts, then give some more. After all, the Lord loves a cheerful giver. As does Joel Osteen and his ilk.


I agree I would consider attending a church with a strong sense of community among its members.

I have a family member that is an assistant pastor in a mega-church and it amuses me when I go to look at one of their online sermons the pop-up asking for a donation appears before I can access it and it only allows one view before it blocks you from watching another sermon.

I understand both sides of the coin but it does seem to be more about donations and market share over the message or inclusion as a member of the church.


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## jerry old (Jan 13, 2020)

STAR:
Cute
You mentioned a guy so transparent that I have to believe we are a nation of dummies.
Tammy Fay in a suit...
Direct TV has several TV preachers in an area clumped together-I define them as 'the send me money group.'
Mr. Osteen belongs in this group.

(Please note there are_ some sincere folks _in this group, but they are a minority-the 'send me money' far outnumber the sincere evangelist.)


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## toffee (Jan 13, 2020)

Prettiest church I have been in was in Cyprus many years ago..
iam not a church goer but like sitting and looking at the lovely stained glass pics ..
very calming places for most ...


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 13, 2020)

The most magnificent church that I visited was the "Church of our Saviour" in Copenhagen.
It has a most amazing church organ dating from 1698.  It is carved from lime wood and supported on two elephants.  The spire of the church has an external helical staircase.


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## Butterfly (Jan 13, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> In spite of not attending church services, I do like seeing old churches for their history and architecture. There were several old ones near where I lived in Hampshire.  A couple were literally in the middle of fields.  One , St.Huberts, dated from the 11th. century and has wall paintings from the 14th century..
> View attachment 87528
> 
> A few miles away is the church of St.Martin,  still as far as I know, lit by candles.
> ...



When we were in Italy, many of the churches and cathedrals had a sort of dress code.  Mostly simple stuff -- no shorts, no sleeveless or revealing tops, no very short skirts, no flip flops.  I can't remember for sure, but I think St. Peter's at the Vatican required something over ladies' hair (nothing drastic, just a bit of lace or hanky pinned on top of the hair).  I believe the dress codes are to reflect respect for the house of God, whether you believe in Him or not.

I asked at one place about the flip flops (I never wear them, but I was curious) and the guide said too many people had fallen because the plastic bottoms somehow caught on the floors.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 13, 2020)

Where did the idea of church buildings originate and need they be so ornate?

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”


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## Catlady (Jan 13, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> required *something over ladies' hair (nothing drastic, just a bit of lace or hanky pinned on top of the hair*).  I believe the dress codes are to reflect respect for the house of God, whether you believe in Him or not.



I think it's weird how men are asked to take off their hats and women are asked to put one on (or a covering).  I never understood why the difference, women and men both have hair, why is one supposed to cover it and the other one to show it?


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## Manatee (Jan 13, 2020)

Wife goes, I don't, it has been that way for 60 years.  Works for us.


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## Pepper (Jan 13, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I think it's weird how men are asked to take off their hats and women are asked to put one on (or a covering).  I never understood why the difference, women and men both have hair, why is one supposed to cover it and the other one to show it?


Because the sight of a woman's hair can drive men insane with desire.  Actually, though, in many religions a man must also wear a head covering to show piety.


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## win231 (Jan 13, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I think it's weird how men are asked to take off their hats and women are asked to put one on (or a covering).  I never understood why the difference, women and men both have hair, why is one supposed to cover it and the other one to show it?


LOL.  I attended a 1-year memorial for a friend's mother at a synagogue.  I didn't understand why the room was divided into two sections, so I asked the Rabbi.  He explained that men & women have to be separated to avoid "distractions."
When I was through laughing, I sat in the back row of the men's section & moved my chair next to the partition so I could still be distracted....by the women.  That was more entertaining than the praying..... although religion does amuse & entertain me.


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## Warrigal (Jan 13, 2020)

Men are so easily distracted, aren't they?
When I was studying to become a teacher we were advised not to wear red clothing because red inflamed the passions of menfolk.

Guess what my favourite colour is?


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## Catlady (Jan 13, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Men are so easily distracted, aren't they?
> When I was studying to become a teacher we were advised not to wear red clothing because red inflamed the passions of menfolk.
> Guess what my favourite colour is?


Seems that the more ''religious'' men are, the more easily they get ''distracted''.  LOL  I think the more you forbid something, the more it's desired.

My favorite colors are blue and purple, but at my age I don't have to worry about distracting any men.  When in my 20's they used to whistle and howl, but that was back when it wasn't considered se*xual harassment.


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## Tommy (Jan 14, 2020)

I am a Christian believer.  I am involved with my church.  The two are directly related; cause and effect.

Christianity as not about buildings or personalities or sermons or music or organizational hierarchies or customs or rules created by men.  It's about belief in God, belief in the scriptures, belief in salvation ... and immense gratitude.  Without belief, I would think "church" would be tedious and a rather poor form of entertainment.

I fully understand that not all will be able to believe.

I continually pray for the souls of those who feel they cannot.


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## oldman (Jan 14, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Church is the only place where I feel entitled to sing, despite all my musical limitations.
> I am encouraged by this song by Bill Staines. Sung by Celtic Thunder


And here is the song that gives me inspiration.


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## oldman (Jan 14, 2020)

The fiddle player looks like the same girl that plays for Jeff Lynee (ELO).


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## StarSong (Jan 15, 2020)

oldman said:


> The fiddle player looks like the same girl that plays for Jeff Lynee (ELO).


Just saw ELO last year.  Great show.  New violinist.


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## charry (Jan 15, 2020)

im an Atheist so, never......
i was sent to sunday school, at the city mission ,when i a kid....but only went for the glass of orange and biscuit....


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## pleinmont (Jan 15, 2020)

I was forced to attend church as a young person, which put me off for life. I don't attend weddings or funerals.


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## Rojo (Jan 15, 2020)

Twice on Sunday and every Wednesday evening.


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## 911 (Jan 18, 2020)

Another very inspiring song.


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## win231 (Jan 18, 2020)

charry said:


> im an Atheist so, never......
> i was sent to sunday school, at the city mission ,when i a kid....but only went for the glass of orange and biscuit....


LOL.  Me, too.  You really earned that snack.


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## win231 (Jan 18, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I think it's weird how men are asked to take off their hats and women are asked to put one on (or a covering).  I never understood why the difference, women and men both have hair, why is one supposed to cover it and the other one to show it?


That's one of the religious practices that really makes me laugh.  A friend of my sister's is orthodox.  I wanted to learn a few things about her standards....rules....whatever (to find more things that amuse me) so I did some research.  Among other nonsense about what she couldn't do on the Sabbath, I learned that orthodox women are not allowed to touch men who are not orthodox - that includes shaking hands.  And they aren't allowed to ever be alone with men who aren't relatives.  That's really funny, because every time she saw me, she hugged me.  And, she asked me to help her move furniture in her house.  I teased her about it; I told her she had to see her Rabbi & beg forgiveness for her sins.
Teehee, I guess she found me so irresistible, she couldn't help it.


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## Grampa Don (Jan 18, 2020)

My Dad's folks were devout Mormons, but the only time I saw him in church was at his funeral.  My Mom never talked about her religion, but she took us to Methodist services a couple times.  They both considered themselves Christians.  I was never baptized.   I still have the bible my Mom gave me.

My wife's folks were active Baptists and forced her to attend every Sunday.  When we were dating, I went with her.  I almost joined.  We were married in her sister's living room by a Baptist minister who was a friend of her family.

After we were married, I offered to continue attending with her, but she was burned out and hasn't been back since.  But, there is a picture of Jesus in our living room.  We have never pushed anything on our sons, and neither one is a church goer.

I have read much of the Bible, but consider myself an agnostic.  But, if people find comfort in whatever their beliefs are,  I'm fine with that as long as they don't try to force it on others.  I'm even nice to the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door regularly.

Don


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## Catlady (Jan 18, 2020)

Grampa Don said:


> I have read much of the Bible, but consider myself an agnostic.  But, if people find comfort in whatever their beliefs are, * I'm fine with that as long as they don't try to force it on others. * I'm even nice to the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door regularly.



That is the way everyone should be.  I'm fine with and respect everybody's religion as long as they don't try to force it on me or do blood sacrifices.  Those are my only two "dont's".  I don't answer the door to the JW's, in this day of newspapers and internet we have all the info we need or want.  What they do, knock on doors, is what they did before people knew how to read or had options for reading.


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## Grampa Don (Jan 18, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I don't answer the door to the JW's, in this day of newspapers and internet we have all the info we need or want.  What they do, knock on doors, is what they did before people knew how to read or had options for reading.



Well, I feel their intentions are good even if I can't accept what they are preaching.  None of them have asked me for money yet.

Don


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## pleinmont (Jan 19, 2020)

When our adopted Down's Syndrome son, then a baby, required a lifesaving blood transfusion, a couple of JWs turned up at our home. Normally I would politely tell them I wasn't interested in what they had to say, and shut the door on them. But on that occasion I asked them for their opinion on the topic of blood transfusions. I was told it would have been best if our boy had died rather than accept blood from another. I was so angry I frogmarched them off our property, telling them in no uncertain terms what I thought of their ghastly religion!


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## Grampa Don (Jan 19, 2020)

@ Pleinmont --  I sure can't blame you.  They have some weird, to my mind, beliefs.  So, I never get into a discussion with them.

Don


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## Sunny (Jan 19, 2020)

Never.


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## Pepper (Jan 19, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> When our adopted Down's Syndrome son, then a baby, required a lifesaving blood transfusion, a couple of JWs turned up at our home. Normally I would politely tell them I wasn't interested in what they had to say, and shut the door on them. But on that occasion I asked them for their opinion on the topic of blood transfusions. I was told it would have been best if our boy had died rather than accept blood from another. I was so angry I frogmarched them off our property, telling them in no uncertain terms what I thought of their ghastly religion!


What prompted you to ask their opinion?  Most folks already know what it would be.  And............they didn't say that because boy has DS, they would have said that for anyone.  Also............they usually say stuff like "god will answer sincere prayers" or somesuch.  They weren't too skilled at being JW's.


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2020)

Jan 26 is Australia day. The date is controversial because it falls on the day that Capt. Arthur Phillip raised British flag in Sydney Cove and began the process of colonisation. Yesterday in church we observed a day of mourning in solidarity with our dispossessed indigenous peoples to remind us why our Aborigines refer to this day as Invasion Day. It was a powerful yet gentle lesson of song and story telling as we attempted to let their pain and grief seep into our consciousness.


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## win231 (Jan 19, 2020)

I just came home from my walk around a nearby lake.  Sometimes people hold religious services there - it's a nice park.  Frequently Jehovah's Witnesses have their area; there is lots of literature about what's wrong with the world & what the answers & solutions are...
Today, a guy approached me & said, "Can I talk to you about Jesus, my friend?"  I said, "Maybe tomorrow."  (I won't be there tomorrow).
That made my day; I was laughing all the way home.


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## Kadee (Jan 19, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> When our adopted Down's Syndrome son, then a baby, required a lifesaving blood transfusion, a couple of JWs turned up at our home. Normally I would politely tell them I wasn't interested in what they had to say, and shut the door on them. But on that occasion I asked them for their opinion on the topic of blood transfusions. I was told it would have been best if our boy had died rather than accept blood from another. I was so angry I frogmarched them off our property, telling them in no uncertain terms what I thought of their ghastly religion!


I could write a book on JW org ...my ex husband joined them after we got married
( Ex died about 20 yrs)
we Spilt up in 1975 when my then 6 month old son was seriously ill and he told Drs he didn’t want them to
treat my son because  jehova would  take care of him  

My son is now a happy healthy 47 year old due to me refusing to “obey the head of the house“


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## peppermint (Jan 19, 2020)

I was brought up Roman Catholic....Anyway, as a young girl I did what my parents told me to do...I made my Holy Communion and went to 
Church and made my Confirmation....I was a teen....After that I still had to attend classes....That's when I stopped going to classes....I had a job
in High School and when I graduated from High School I went to work.....
When I married my husband I didn't get married in a Roman Catholic Church...Mom was mad but Dad told her that he is giving our blessings
for our daughter to marry herr fiancé ..(After that they were OK)...They loved my husband and just didn't make a big deal of not going to
a Roman Catholic Church....So anyway, 
We all love each other!!!!!  That's all that matter's....(My parents are gone many years ago)….We still go to the Roman Catholic Cematery
to take care of the stone drawers....My brother is buried along side of my parents..


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## Lakeland living (Jan 19, 2020)

I don't discuss religion or politics.
Yes, spiritual..


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## pleinmont (Jan 20, 2020)

Pepper said:


> What prompted you to ask their opinion?  Most folks already know what it would be.  And............they didn't say that because boy has DS, they would have said that for anyone.  Also............they usually say stuff like "god will answer sincere prayers" or somesuch.  They weren't too skilled at being JW's.



I just wanted to see how those crazy loons would react.


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## Edna 25 (Jan 23, 2020)

Have only attended church a handful of times in last 15 yrs. The 10 before that i went more often. My spouse and i watch Charles Stanley or Winning Walk every Sunday morning and we do pray often. I try to live by Christ's example but fall short too much of the time. I have a bit of an anxiety disorder and that is the main reason i stay home.


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## Rojo (Jan 23, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I would go to a church that emphasized Jesus' messages of kindness, humility, service, acceptance and caring for one another, rather than Paul's words, or most modern religion's laser focus: Bring _your money_, and your friends and _their money_ to our church (the only one true church) lest ye be damned. Give till it hurts, then give some more. After all, the Lord loves a cheerful giver. As does Joel Osteen and his ilk.



Joel Olsteen and those like him, are scammers. The Bible does address tithing though. It is to be used to support the church, workers and ministries.


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## Sunny (Jan 23, 2020)

I've never had any religious evangelists knock on my door.  Should I feel offended?


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## Keesha (Jan 23, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> At times, I think about it
> 
> At times I go
> 
> ....then remember why I don't


Ditto!


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## Keesha (Jan 23, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I've never had any religious evangelists knock on my door.  Should I feel offended?


No just lucky.


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## pleinmont (Jan 23, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I've never had any religious evangelists knock on my door.  Should I feel offended?



Lucky you.


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> When our adopted Down's Syndrome son, then a baby, required a lifesaving blood transfusion, a couple of JWs turned up at our home. Normally I would politely tell them I wasn't interested in what they had to say, and shut the door on them. But on that occasion I asked them for their opinion on the topic of blood transfusions. I was told it would have been best if our boy had died rather than accept blood from another. I was so angry I frogmarched them off our property, telling them in no uncertain terms what I thought of their ghastly religion!






so sad about your son , but you also have to respect their religion pleinmont......


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## pleinmont (Jan 23, 2020)

charry said:


> so sad about your son , but you also have to respect their religion pleinmont......



I have absolutely no respect for their religion, which has no doubt killed many of their believers.


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## CrackerJack (Jan 23, 2020)

StarSong said:


> *I would go to a church that emphasized Jesus' messages of kindness, humility, service, acceptance and caring for one another, r*ather than Paul's words, or most modern religion's laser focus: Bring _your money_, and your friends and _their money_ to our church (the only one true church) lest ye be damned. Give till it hurts, then give some more. After all, the Lord loves a cheerful giver. As does Joel Osteen and his ilk.


 
This is the simple message for anyone to understand impo.


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## Pecos (Jan 23, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I've never had any religious evangelists knock on my door.  Should I feel offended?


Send some of that Karma my way. They can be a pest around here.

.... and no, I don't go to church except for weddings and funerals.


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## Pepper (Jan 23, 2020)

charry said:


> so sad about your son , but you also *have to* respect their religion pleinmont......


Why?


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Why?




because its their belief pepper......would you want to be questioned about any of your beliefs ...?


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I have absolutely no respect for their religion, which has no doubt killed many of their believers.





thats down to you....i guess that shows your true character......we are all different , and we should show respect !,!


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## pleinmont (Jan 23, 2020)

charry said:


> thats down to you....i guess that shows your true character......we are all different , and we should show respect !,!



Why should anyone show respect for an evil religion, which is very damaging to its acolytes?


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> Why should anyone show respect for an evil religion, which is very damaging to its acolytes?




please yourself ......im not arguing with you.!.....


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## Grampa Don (Jan 23, 2020)

I don't think folks having strange beliefs makes them bad people.  Misled or confused maybe.  I once worked with a guy who was a Jehovah's Witness, and he was very likable.  He did invite me to one of his meetings once, but when I declined he never brought it up again.

Like I wrote, my Grandparents were devout Mormons.  My Granddad did missionary duty.  A lot of people think they're a cult, and the book of Mormon is pretty hard to swallow.  I've read some of it.  But, you won't meet nicer people than my relatives on my Dad's side.

I'm not really religious at all.  But hey, if you dance around a bonfire at night yelling boojah boojah and worship snakes, and it makes you happy, we can still be friends.

Don


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## pleinmont (Jan 23, 2020)

I had the Christian extremist, 'you must be saved or else', garbage forced down my throat as a kid, which wasn't pleasant, that is abusive, imo.


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## Wren (Jan 23, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I just wanted to see how those crazy loons would react.


Would it not occurred to you, as this site has members from all over the world and all walks of life, there may be some Jehovah Witnesses among us ? They are entitled to their beliefs as are the rest of us and, just because you do not agree with them, it dosn’t make them ‘crazy loons’

Incidentally  I’m not rising to your bait, I’ve seen you and your provocative, repetitive posts on other  sites over the years, including  this one


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## pleinmont (Jan 23, 2020)

I haven't a clue who you are and care even less!


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## win231 (Jan 23, 2020)

Rojo said:


> Joel Olsteen and those like him, are scammers. The Bible does address tithing though. It is to be used to support the church, workers and ministries.


Yeah, but Osteen is fun to watch.  My ex girlfriend said he's good looking.  My sister said he looks like a rabbit.


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## Pink Biz (Jan 23, 2020)

Wren said:


> Incidentally  I’m not rising to your bait, I’ve seen you and your provocative, repetitive posts on other  sites over the years, including  this one.



*Ditto!*


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## win231 (Jan 23, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I have absolutely no respect for their religion, which has no doubt killed many of their believers.


B-B-B-B-BUT it's "God's will."  Or so say religious wackos.


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

Wren said:


> Would it not occurred to you, as this site has members from all over the world and all walks of life, there may be some Jehovah Witnesses among us ? They are entitled to their beliefs as are the rest of us and, just because you do not agree with them, it dosn’t make them ‘crazy loons’
> 
> Incidentally  I’m not rising to your bait, I’ve seen you and your provocative, repetitive posts on other  sites over the years, including  this one





you took the words right out of my mouth wren .......i think ignore is in order !!


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## charry (Jan 23, 2020)

Pink Biz said:


> *Ditto!*


DITTO...


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## exwisehe (Jan 23, 2020)

Very rarely miss a Sunday at church, as has been my practice for 75 years.

Church is everything to me.  I've been an usher, SS secretary, sub teacher, on the drama team, wheelchair ministry, visitation team, prayer partner, and on several missionary trips, including visits to prisons, hospitals, schools, universities, county fairs in order to pass out bibles. That's just a few.


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## Keesha (Jan 23, 2020)

Keesha said:


> No just lucky.


For the record, I get JW come to my door at least once a year and while I don’t follow their beliefs, I respect their right to believe in whatever they like.

Im not crazy about getting unexpected visitors but I usually talk with them and have always found them to be very polite and respectful so do open my door when they show up

Not going to church is more due to my own issues than not being a believer. I prefer more spiritual inspiration than organized religion


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## Pepper (Jan 23, 2020)

Wren said:


> Would it not occurred to you, as this site has members from all over the world and all walks of life, there may be some Jehovah Witnesses among us ? *They are entitled to their beliefs as are the rest of us and, just because you do not agree with them, it dosn’t make them ‘crazy loons’*


So, then, why is she not entitled to *her *belief that they are crazy loons, especially since they might believe that those who don't follow *them *are evil and will wind up in hell?  Why isn't her belief respected too?


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## Rosemarie (Jan 23, 2020)

No, I don't go to church, but I respect those that do. Let's be thankful we are no longer forced to attend, and can make a free choice.


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## Pepper (Jan 23, 2020)

Keesha said:


> *Not going to church is more due to my own issues* than not being a believer. I prefer more spiritual inspiration than organized religion


Hey, that makes it sound like you're blaming yourself or are deficient in some way for not going.  Don't do that, it isn't true.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 23, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Hey, that makes it sound like you're blaming yourself or are deficient in some way for not going.  Don't do that, it isn't true.


What happened to "Peace Now"? [poke, duck, poke, duck]


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## Pepper (Jan 23, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> What happened to "Peace Now"? [poke, duck, poke, duck]


Silly man.  You're old enough to remember what that refers to.


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## Ladybj (Jan 23, 2020)

This is a great post.  I bypassed it a few times because I do not like discussing religion nor politics..  touchy subjects.  However, I decided to read some of the post.  I use to go to Church almost every Sunday at one point..which was years ago.. then I went periodically. I have nothing against Church, however, this new age modern religion, money making religion, is not for me.  I love God, and very Spiritual. There are so many man made rules when it comes to religion.  When my brother passed away I tried to get a minister from the Church I attended to preach at my brothers funeral...long story short, no one returned my call.  I had another situation occur and no return call.  I could go on but will stop here.  

I have been looking for another Home Church but for now, God and I are fine where ever I pray and thank him.  I have to keep in mind, when/if I decide to find a Church home, I am not going for the Pastor, (because no Church is perfect) I am going to give God praise.  I do miss the Choir.  I may visit there again soon.  God Bless and each person has their own beliefs, etc.


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## Keesha (Jan 23, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Hey, that makes it sound like you're blaming yourself or are deficient in some way for not going.  Don't do that, it isn't true.


No! That’s not what I mean. 
I actually enjoy some aspects of going to church like singing hymns with others. The songs are inspirational and up lifting.

 I’ve met many really wonderful religious people and I think for the most part religion was invented to help give  people some type of moral compass to help navigate people throughout their lives. 

Unfortunately there are those who take every scripture literally and judge others by them so I’m not actually blaming myself for not going. I fully understand that it’s my own choice.


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## peppermint (Jan 23, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> Very rarely miss a Sunday at church, as has been my practice for 75 years.
> 
> Church is everything to me.  I've been an usher, SS secretary, sub teacher, on the drama team, wheelchair ministry, visitation team, prayer partner, and on several missionary trips, including visits to prisons, hospitals, schools, universities, county fairs in order to pass out bibles. That's just a few.


Very nice exwisehe….I never condone any one's religion.....Be Well....Most of my family are religious....No matter what religion they believe in
it's OK with me....


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## peppermint (Jan 23, 2020)

CinnamonSugar said:


> “Re-verted” to the Catholic Church about 14 yrs ago.  Grateful to be able to receive communion, find peace after a busy week, and enjoy the beautiful music


Nice, Cinnamon....Most of my family are Catholic...So I go to a lot of wedding's, Baptisim's and other things my family goes to...
I also will take communion...(I asked a priest one time)… I asked him if it is OK to still take the host, cause I was a Roman Catholic before
I got married....He said, anyone can take the sacrament....It's not a sin if you are not a Roman Catholic anymore....He did say, just believe in God..


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## Warrigal (Jan 23, 2020)

When I am participating in a service from a different tradition to my home church I respect any rules they may have regarding sacraments and am respectful of the cultural traditions. Personally I have no qualms about receiving the eucharist wherever I am welcome. I have partaken of  this sacrament in Roman Catholic, Anglican (Episcopalian) and various non conformist Protestant churches. It is a sign that I am connected to a tradition that goes all the way back to the living Jesus. Not every tradition is good or valuable but  prayerful reflection while participating in an ancient ritual can be very uplifting.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 24, 2020)

Religious belief and church attendance (or not) seems to depend a lot on your parents...  Philip Larkin put it beautifully...

They **** you up, your mum and dad.  
    They may not mean to, but they do.  
They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were ****ed up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,  
Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another’s throats.

I was dragged to church by parents who could never explain why they or I should go.  You simply had to because they had to...  They weren't the thinking type.
My own children were never baptised or taken to church, and they never showed any desire to go.   I strongly suspect that church and its rituals were in many cases designed to preserve the elite status of the clergy and keep the 'commoners' in their place.


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## pleinmont (Jan 24, 2020)

We let our own children decide for themselves about religion. They are Christians, but moderate in their views and definitely not biblical literalists, even the eldest girl who is an Anglican priest.


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## Ladybj (Jan 24, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> Religious belief and church attendance (or not) seems to depend a lot on your parents...  Philip Larkin put it beautifully...
> 
> They **** you up, your mum and dad.
> They may not mean to, but they do.
> ...


Your post is deep. I respect the way you feel and in my opinion, I agree with some of what you stated. I went to church with my mom  a few times as a little girl.. as I became an adult, I visited different churches with friends..some churches I will not visit again..some were ok.  Now at 60 I have always had a personal relationship with God.. I can thank him and praise him where ever I am.. in my house, in the car, etc.  I took my daughter to church a few times but I allowed her to make the decision as to if she wanted to continue to go. She did not..however, she attended a Christian College.  I agree, we teach our children what was taught to us. However as adults we gain more knowledge and pass it on to our children.


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## Keesha (Jan 24, 2020)

My parents weren’t/ aren’t the least bit religious and never instilled the fear of God on us which I’m thankful for.  They instilled the fear of them which was enough. They made us go to Sunday School since it was considered free child care. It was easier than being home with them in our younger years. Later they went away on weekends; sometimes I went to church but it was my own choice and I enjoyed it back then.


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## Linda (Jan 24, 2020)

No, I don't go to church at all.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 24, 2020)

toffee said:


> *Last time I went was my sisters funeral' few years now -never been keen on weddings -
> and so i dont really go unless really called too...i have nothing against the church'  i do
> find them rather calming when iam in there ...
> 
> So do go often especially on a Sunday ' or did you stop attending for a reason .*




Greeting 
Some people go to church on holidays, and weddings but a funeral is not the end of life, but a new beginning just like a wedding, so the church is what I want to be For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."


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## pleinmont (Jan 25, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> Greeting
> Some people go to church on holidays, and weddings but a funeral is not the end of life, but a new beginning just like a wedding, so the church is what I want to be For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."



Fine if you wish to believe  that to be true. I hope when I die that is it end of the story I have no wish of an afterlife, especially one with the Biblical god if it exists.


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## oldman (Jan 25, 2020)

oldman said:


> The fiddle player looks like the same girl that plays for Jeff Lynee (ELO).


This is Rosie Langley. Her sister, Amy also played in ELO as a cello (?) player. ELO would use a different lead violinist from time to time depending on who was available during their concerts.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 26, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I've never had any religious evangelists knock on my door.  Should I feel offended?


Nooo...you are blessed or lucky... or you DO something to keep religious proselytizing  and threatening you with hell away .... Hang garlic around your neck? Carry a spike and hammer?


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## Keesha (Jan 26, 2020)

Hang garlic ‘round your neck?
They aren’t  Vampires  lol


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 26, 2020)

Rojo said:


> Joel Olsteen and those like him, are scammers. The Bible does address tithing though. It is to be used to support the church, workers and ministries.


Read the Bible very carefully...tithing was ONLY the Israelites. The non-Israelite members of their households did not. Grain, oil, goats etc. were given to the temple. They NEVER gave money even though money existed.

The one and ONLY time Abraham gave a tithe was 10% of the spoils that he had taken from his enemies that he destroyed. HE did this ONE time only to thank God for him winning the fight..

There were grain/oil/sheep/goat tithes also taken to some of their festivals (I don't recall which ones and it is to late to look it up) they would bring it as a sacrifice but then after the ceremony they would eat it during the feast. It was just a big celebration meal. They were told if the location was very far away from their home they would just take enough money with them to PURCHASE the food items for the tithe when they arrived at the feast location. (They did not give the money!)

Tithes were NOT given of their yearly Gross like it is taught in the churches. It was 10% of the INCREASE from the previous year. Think of like our pay raises. If you got a pay raise 0f $3000 for 2019 you would tithe 10% of the $3000 Increase. JUST the one time, that one year, that you got that raise. You would not tithe on that 3K every year until you died. And you did Not tithe 10% of your 60K income.

In their terms...they had 200 sheep at the end of 2018. At end of 2019 they had 190 sheep left over after some died, traded some for money and they fed their family sheep all year long. So even though several sheep were born that year there was no increase. NO tithe required.
At the end of 2020 after some died, they traded some for money and fed their family sheep all year  they had 290 sheep. They tithed 10% of the 100 sheep increase. The same applied to vats of oil and bushels of grain etc.

The 10% of our GROSS income EVERY year is a scam to support deacons, bishops, priests , popes, reverends, preachers, fathers, evangelists, the church support staff, expensive cathedrals and church buildings, that sit empty 90% of the time, because clergy only want to make a speech 1 or 2 times a week instead of get a real job.


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## Warrigal (Jan 26, 2020)

Interesting, Homeschoolie. This is not something I have heard about before. Human nature being what it is, I can envisage some sharp practices developing to minimise the religious obligation. I hope I am wrong about this.

Interestingly our bible study class recently looked at the story of Zaccheus and at his formula for putting things right. Righteousness does seem to be directly connected to social justice or as we say in OZ, everyone having a fair go.


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## pleinmont (Jan 27, 2020)

It should be a crime for people to proselytise.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 27, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> It should be a crime for people to proselytise.



The various versions of Christian religions are the only ones who proselytize....

Jews, (not sure if Messianic Jews do or not), Satanists, Buddhists, New Agers, Pagans, Deists, Wiccans, American Indians, Hindus, Jains, Shinto, Taoism, Krishna's, Druids and the numerous other spiritual beliefs never do. They are totally happy and content. No need to try to dominate, oppress and control the world with what they believe.

The Abrahamic religions are blackmailed/oppressed with fear of hell and fear of pissing off their deity so he wont answer their prayers if they don't.  So they do. They have no choice. Others in these religions are arrogant and think they are superior and they must save all the lesser folks!

Jim Jones, Ghana, drink the cool aid or else, pops into my head whenever I think about this.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 27, 2020)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
For educational and enlightenment purposes read this list. Really read it and think about it. If you will, you will see how fascinating it is.

No wonder the world is in a mess. This many beliefs. They ALL can't be right. But they ALL can be wrong!
Each and every one was started by a person. The originator of Scientology openly admitted he needed some way to make a living and noticed the leaders of religions were wealthy.  He summized that to get rich just start a religion. He did, and he did!

When you get way down the list it has some of the most recent and most fascinating ones.
Humm... God-Building, Church of Divine Science, Wiccan Christianity, Yoga, Kabbalah and so many others.

UPDATE: Love this list. So many intriguing and interesting beliefs.
I read the list and down towards the bottom is this:
The *Prince Philip Movement* is a religious sect followed by the Kastom people around Yaohnanen village on the southern island of Tanna in Vanuatu. It is a cargo cult of the Yaohnanen tribe, who believe that Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the consort to Queen Elizabeth II, is a divine being.


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## peppermint (Jan 27, 2020)

Grampa Don said:


> I don't think folks having strange beliefs makes them bad people.  Misled or confused maybe.  I once worked with a guy who was a Jehovah's Witness, and he was very likable.  He did invite me to one of his meetings once, but when I declined he never brought it up again.
> 
> Like I wrote, my Grandparents were devout Mormons.  My Granddad did missionary duty.  A lot of people think they're a cult, and the book of Mormon is pretty hard to swallow.  I've read some of it.  But, you won't meet nicer people than my relatives on my Dad's side.
> 
> ...


I had an Aunt that was a Jehova witness...  She was born a Roman Catholic but decided she liked the (Witness's)….I still loved her...
My Dad would visit his Sister, but he told her when he brings his kids to visit he didn't want her to engage in (Silly Talk) when the kids
are around...
Her husband (second husband) was born in another country, we never could understand him....He would take out his wine and ask us
if we want a drink...My Dad always got mad, cause we were under the age to drink alcohol....My Dad had 5 sister's and 4 brother's....
Most were Roman Catholic....


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## peppermint (Jan 27, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> Nooo...you are blessed or lucky... or you DO something to keep religious proselytizing  and threatening you with hell away .... Hang garlic around your neck? Carry a spike and hammer?


I answer the door when a religious person or whatever they are....I telll them I'm not interested..."That's All"....close the door or don't answer the door....It seems we haven't seen people come around anymore....Don't know why!!!


----------



## Homeschoolie (Jan 27, 2020)

peppermint said:


> I answer the door when a religious person or whatever they are....I telll them I'm not interested..."That's All"....close the door or don't answer the door....It seems we haven't seen people come around anymore....Don't know why!!!



Just a thought : Answering the door in our undies  will insure they don't return to our houses again!


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## jerry old (Jan 27, 2020)

Post 136 & 140
Christian's are under an obligation to proselytize- quickly tell them your not interested.
(as you did.)


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 27, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> Fine if you wish to believe  that to be true. I hope when I die that is it end of the story I have no wish of an afterlife, especially one with the Biblical god if it exists.



Hello
Why do you feel this way who hurt you?


----------



## Butterfly (Jan 27, 2020)

peppermint said:


> I answer the door when a religious person or whatever they are....I telll them I'm not interested..."That's All"....close the door or don't answer the door....It seems we haven't seen people come around anymore....Don't know why!!!



Pretty much nobody does door-to-door stuff anymore here, probably because people nowdays will not open their doors to anyone they don't know.


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## Keesha (Jan 27, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Pretty much nobody does door-to-door stuff anymore here, probably because people nowdays will not open their doors to anyone they don't know.


They still do where we live.


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## pleinmont (Jan 28, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> Hello
> Why do you feel this way who hurt you?



I was brought up to believe in the highly unpleasant, 'you must be born again or burn in hell' dogma. I even did the 'born again' thing when I was 11. But throughout my teenage years the doubts grew far too many to ignore, I lost my faith by the time I was 19. Besides which, many of the extreme Christians I knew,  who believed in that nonsense, were not good people. I have read the Bible many times over the years and the more I read the more convinced I am that it is a work of fiction. I sincerely hope that is true, the god character is evil.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 28, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I have read the Bible many times over the years and the more I read the more convinced I am that it is a work of fiction. I sincerely hope that is true, the god character is evil.


I could have written this. Most "Christians" I know never read the bible. They keep quoting the same  few phrases and ignore the rest. There is no point trying to have a discussion with them.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 28, 2020)

rkunsaw said:


> I could have written this. Most "Christians" I know never read the bible. They keep quoting the same  few phrases and ignore the rest. There is no point trying to have a discussion with them.


They are lazy and live in constant fear. They just quote over and over what the guy standing in front or the TV show idiot or one of the million Xian books being written (with just the opinion of the author and rehashing the same ole stuff) preached at them over and over.
If they would read the Nag Hammadi/dead sea scrolls, the *at least 130 *earliest Xian, Gnostic, Jewish, Essenes etc writings they would know the truth. Opening eyes, minds and ears is taught to be doubt... doubt is their worst enemy because those who think a real thought of their own will suffer for doing so. This is the definition of a Cult.


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## Pecos (Jan 28, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> They are lazy and live in constant fear. They just quote over and over what the guy standing in front or the TV show idiot or one of the million Xian books being written (with just the opinion of the author and rehashing the same ole stuff) preached at them over and over.
> If they would read the Nag Hammadi/dead sea scrolls, the *at least 130 *earliest Xian, Gnostic, Jewish, Essenes etc writings they would know the truth. Opening eyes, minds and ears is taught to be doubt... doubt is their worst enemy because those who think a real thought of their own will suffer for doing so. This is the definition of a Cult.


Or to quote Senator Daniel Moynihan:
"Ideological certainty easily degenerates into an insistence upon ignorance."


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 28, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I have read the Bible many times over the years and the more I read the more convinced I am that it is a work of fiction. I sincerely hope that is true, the god character is evil.



You are not alone. Those who have read the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Sanskrit etc.  writings we now have and compared every writing we have from ancient times with the current bible translations have come to the same conclusion.

When using the original bible words used in other languages, and their meaning then and now, if there is a spiritual entity that is the "good guy" it isn't the Bible God. The bible god and satan are the same guy. In addition, Satan did not show up as the  evil dude until late in the game. The ancient Jews also did not believe in or teach Satan or heaven or hell until late in the game. Each "rewrite" changed drastically.

Which makes a lot more sense when you look at all of the hate,  bellowing,  blustering, bragging and threats spewing from bible god. And mans attempt to make god a good guy with Bible 2.0.


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## DaveA (Jan 28, 2020)

It is fun to listen to some of our non-religious friends.  I can only picture them, red-faced, bellowing, with spittle flying from their mouths.  I'm also impressed with how many so called "non-believers" have made such careful studies of the Bible.  Must have spent  many hours in what I consider pretty "dry' reading with a subject of which they have (or express that they have) little interest.

It puzzles me as to why anyone gets so frazzled over something that they don't practice, believe in, or encounter.  If one doesn't enjoy, let's say "dancing", should they verbally attack any and everyone who professes to enjoy it?

Let the dancers enjoy their day and enjoy yours in any manner that pleases you ( and hope that the dancers don't bad-mouth you for your choice).


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## win231 (Jan 28, 2020)

DaveA said:


> It is fun to listen to some of our non-religious friends.  I can only picture them, red-faced, bellowing, with spittle flying from their mouths.  I'm also impressed with how many so called "non-believers" have made such careful studies of the Bible.  Must have spent  many hours in what I consider pretty "dry' reading with a subject of which they have (or express that they have) little interest.
> 
> It puzzles me as to why anyone gets so frazzled over something that they don't practice, believe in, or encounter.  If one doesn't enjoy, let's say "dancing", should they verbally attack any and everyone who professes to enjoy it?
> 
> Let the dancers enjoy their day and enjoy yours in any manner that pleases you ( and hope that the dancers don't bad-mouth you for your choice).


ROFLOL!!  "Red-faced, bellowing pretty much describes TV ministers.  They're fun to watch.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 28, 2020)

DaveA said:


> It is fun to listen to some of our non-religious friends.  I can only picture them, red-faced, bellowing, with spittle flying from their mouths.  I'm also impressed with how many so called "non-believers" have made such careful studies of the Bible.  Must have spent  many hours in what I consider pretty "dry' reading with a subject of which they have (or express that they have) little interest.
> 
> It puzzles me as to why anyone gets so frazzled over something that they don't practice, believe in, or encounter.  If one doesn't enjoy, let's say "dancing", should they verbally attack any and everyone who professes to enjoy it?
> 
> Let the dancers enjoy their day and enjoy yours in any manner that pleases you ( and hope that the dancers don't bad-mouth you for your choice).


Profound and enlightening. I wish everyone had this mindset.


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## Gardenlover (Jan 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> ROFLOL!!  "Red-faced, bellowing pretty much describes TV ministers.  They're fun to watch.


I think it describes both sides of the aisle pretty accurately. We play so many foolish games.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 28, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I was brought up to believe in the highly unpleasant, 'you must be born again or burn in hell' dogma. I even did the 'born again' thing when I was 11. But throughout my teenage years the doubts grew far too many to ignore, I lost my faith by the time I was 19. Besides which, many of the extreme Christians I knew,  who believed in that nonsense, were not good people. I have read the Bible many times over the years and the more I read the more convinced I am that it is a work of fiction. I sincerely hope that is true, the god character is evil.



To be born again this mean, this is called a new birth or the new birth a new beginning the old ways will be no more.
born again means the one that is chosen, will be gathered and will be with Christ, in heaven, theses chosen, will die and will be born again in a new life, these people are unknown to us.

In *Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This means that you must be reading the Bible or someone is reading the Scripture. As you are reading the Bible the Holy Spirit will apply the word in your heart by removing your heart, and by giving you a new heart this, in turn, will give you the ability to confess to God all of your sins.* 

Ezekiel 36: 26 *A New Heart also I will give you, and A New Spirit will I put within you, and I will take away thy stony Heart out of your body and I will give you a Heart of Spirit.
*(*A Spiritual Heart*)

Ezekiel 36: 27 *And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My Laws, and do them.
*I John 3:9* Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remained in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This is how God saves an individual. Once a person is saved, the Holy Spirit steals him as the son of God, then this person can enter the kingdom of God, without the Holy Spirit and no one can enter the kingdom of God also the child God has the authority to bring an individual to the presence of the Holy Spirit so that he makes can be saved if it is God’s will. 
But it is up to God himself you must satisfy the Lord, and wait for him to answer you as he sends you the Holy Spirit to steal your faith.
*Romans 9: 15*   15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

*Revelation 21: 4-5 *And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
The testing read Matthews 24: 1 – 51, this will give a little understanding of what is happening and what will happen


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## win231 (Jan 28, 2020)

The "Born Again" thing really tickles me.  I've known several people who were born again.
One friend of a friend was an alcoholic with 6 DUI's.  She frequently preached & tried to interest me in religion & being born again & "Accepting the Lord."  When I reminded her that it wasn't helping her, she blamed "The Devil."

Two born again co-workers embezzled more than $80,000.00 from the owner - who liked them & tried to help them.  When the owner found out, she was in her office.  I heard her crying.  I stuck my head in & asked, "Are you OK?"  She responded, "I can't believe they did this to me after all the help I gave them, and they're both reborn Christians."  I just shook my & said to myself, "She's as wacko as they are."

Another friend of a friend was married 5 times & cheated on all 5 of his wives.  He was the ultimate hippocrite.  When I was going through my divorce, he offered to counsel me!  (I'm still chuckling at that - 37 years later)

One of my favorites:  Bill Clinton, (after notifying the news media) walking into church, clutching his bible - right after his deposition.  He needed to ask forgiveness after all that lying.

Well, they really needed to be born again.....many times over.  They figured each time they were born again, the slate was wiped clean.  LOL!


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## Pepper (Jan 28, 2020)

You have a weird avatar, @TheWordIsOne, since Spock was logical.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 28, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You have a weird avatar, @TheWordIsOne, since Spock was logical.



thank you its logical to be different


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## Pepper (Jan 28, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> thank you its logical to be different


How are you different?


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 28, 2020)

they say that I have a mysterious  nature and a peculiar smile


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## Keesha (Jan 28, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> they say that I have a mysterious  nature and a peculiar smile


Hey! Me too!


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 28, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Hey! Me too!



ok


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## Keesha (Jan 28, 2020)

Oh! 
I was just kidding and being silly. 
Everyone is as different and unique as each snowflake including you. 

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. I’m kinda of goofy that way some how.


----------



## Giantsfan1954 (Jan 28, 2020)

911 said:


> Another very inspiring song.


His background is so much more impactful than religion in that song...


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## C'est Moi (Jan 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> The "Born Again" thing really tickles me.  I've known several people who were born again.
> One friend of a friend was an alcoholic with 6 DUI's.  She frequently preached & tried to interest me in religion & being born again & "Accepting the Lord."  When I reminded her that it wasn't helping her, she blamed "The Devil."
> 
> Two born again co-workers embezzled more than $80,000.00 from the owner - who liked them & tried to help them.  When the owner found out, she was in her office.  I heard her crying.  I stuck my head in & asked, "Are you OK?"  She responded, "I can't believe they did this to me after all the help I gave them, and they're both reborn Christians."  I just shook my & said to myself, "She's as wacko as they are."
> ...


Why so nasty?   Live and let live.


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## Warrigal (Jan 28, 2020)

Don't worry about negative posts, C'est Moi.

It always happens whenever a thread is started that invites people to declare their faith. For that reason I hesitate to participate but then I think, why not?  I am not ashamed to admit that I am a church going Christian and that I am committed to contributing to the life of my local congregation.

If anyone wants to indirectly label me a fool or a hypocrite I take no notice. I know who and what I am, I know my personal history and why I have arrived at this place. I don't have to convince anyone of my spiritual/religious viewpoint.

Most of the online negativity stems from painful negative experiences that are hard to put behind us. Some of it is because in this age of reason (something we could definitely argue about at great length) there is no room for faith or mystery. Whatever the reason, at our age thought patterns and personal beliefs tend to be set in stone. That is OK with me because the earth continues to spin on its axis, day follows night and there is always hope ahead.


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## win231 (Jan 28, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Why so nasty?   Live and let live.


You are reading things into my post that aren't there.  I said these things tickle me & make me laugh.  That's not being nasty; that's laughing at something that amuses me.  Laughter is the best medicine.
By the way, your post also tickles me.


----------



## win231 (Jan 28, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Don't worry about negative posts, C'est Moi.
> 
> It always happens whenever a thread is started that invites people to declare their faith. For that reason I hesitate to participate but then I think, why not?  I am not ashamed to admit that I am a church going Christian and that I am committed to contributing to the life of my local congregation.
> 
> ...


Who's labeling _you_ a hypocrite?  I only labeled the religious people _I know _to be hypocrites.   Where did I say _all_ Christians or all religious people are hypocrites?
See how some overly-sensitive religious people jump to conclusions?


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## Warrigal (Jan 29, 2020)

> Who's labeling _you_ a hypocrite?



Not you, Win 231. 

That was a general observation from me that somewhere along the line when a thread asking people to identify themselves as people of faith is started, it will inevitably attract general accusations of stupidity and/or hypocrisy. Sometimes directly, but more often indirectly. People who have revealed themselves as Christians do tend to feel that the accusation is directed at them. They take it personally. I don't, and I was talking directly to C'est Moi, not you. I was suggesting that she not take such comments personally. I offer you the same advice. Don't take my post to C'est Moi personally. It was not meant aimed at you.


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## pleinmont (Jan 29, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> To be born again this mean, this is called a new birth or the new birth a new beginning the old ways will be no more.
> born again means the one that is chosen, will be gathered and will be with Christ, in heaven, theses chosen, will die and will be born again in a new life, these people are unknown to us.
> 
> In *Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This means that you must be reading the Bible or someone is reading the Scripture. As you are reading the Bible the Holy Spirit will apply the word in your heart by removing your heart, and by giving you a new heart this, in turn, will give you the ability to confess to God all of your sins.*
> ...



I am so glad I got unborn again, I hope when I die I stay dead. The idea of being in heaven with the evil Bible god is not my idea of fun.


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## C'est Moi (Jan 29, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Not you, Win 231.
> 
> That was a general observation from me that somewhere along the line when a thread asking people to identify themselves as people of faith is started, it will inevitably attract general accusations of stupidity and/or hypocrisy. Sometimes directly, but more often indirectly. People who have revealed themselves as Christians do tend to feel that the accusation is directed at them. They take it personally. I don't, and I was talking directly to C'est Moi, not you. I was suggesting that she not take such comments personally. I offer you the same advice. Don't take my post to C'est Moi personally. It was not meant aimed at you.



I do not take the comments personally, Warri.   I am not a believer so truly have no dog in this fight.   But I will never understand people who can't make their point in any conversation without being nasty or putting others down, then slamming a "smilie face" on it like they are fooling anyone.    "When someone shows you who they are, believe them."


----------



## C'est Moi (Jan 29, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I am so glad I got unborn again, I hope when I die I stay dead. The idea of being in heaven with the evil Bible god is not my idea of fun.


Well we hope you get what you wish for.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 29, 2020)

DaveA said:


> It is fun to listen to some of our non-religious friends.  I can only picture them, red-faced, bellowing, with spittle flying from their mouths.  I'm also impressed with how many so called "non-believers" have made such careful studies of the Bible.  Must have spent  many hours in what I consider pretty "dry' reading with a subject of which they have (or express that they have) little interest.
> 
> It puzzles me as to why anyone gets so frazzled over something that they don't practice, believe in, or encounter.  If one doesn't enjoy, let's say "dancing", should they verbally attack any and everyone who professes to enjoy it?
> 
> Let the dancers enjoy their day and enjoy yours in any manner that pleases you ( and hope that the dancers don't bad-mouth you for your choice).



It is called living an "intelligent life". You and ALL self proclaimed " believers" should try it sometime. Listening to  Preachers  (who have no clue) telling believers what to believe and only reading one pared down, reworded dozens of times, book does nothing to improve understanding, find the truth or help to improve life's circumstances.

There are no red faces, bellowing, spittle flying or negative emotions of any kind.  No one is frazzled.

Those who research thoroughly and diligently are seekers of truth
.
Most of them also take a  very intelligent detailed look at all scientific, archeological, medical discoveries and  theories as well.

For the same reason, seeking the truth, better understanding  and improvement of life circumstances.

If there were no seekers to examine and pursue EVERYTHING, all of the scientific discoveries, material possessions and medical/dental help that you take for granted and get to enjoy would not even exist.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 29, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> , at our age thought patterns and personal beliefs tend to be set in stone.



Not always true. The numbers of people who are opening their eyes and minds and willing to question religious and spiritual beliefs is staggering. At all age groups, But especially the senior population. I am amazed at how many that were a member of the clergy (all faith flavors) and those who were Christian believers for a life time that are finally waking up and paying attention to the facts and truth, not just what they were told to believe. People are hurting and wanting to find something that actually does as advertised and improves life. They realize that  a lifetime of Christianity wasn't it.


----------



## C'est Moi (Jan 29, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> Not always true. The numbers of people who are opening their eyes and minds and willing to question religious and spiritual beliefs is staggering. At all age groups, But especially the senior population. I am amazed at how many that were a member of the clergy (all faith flavors) and those who were Christian believers for a life time that are finally waking up and paying attention to the facts and truth, not just what they were told to believe. People are hurting and wanting to find something that actually does as advertised and improves life. They realize that  a lifetime of Christianity wasn't it.


I think you should speak for yourself and let other people do the same.   There is no broad brush and I imagine that most people just keep their beliefs to themselves to avoid dust-ups like this thread.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I am so glad I got unborn again, I hope when I die I stay dead. The idea of being in heaven with the evil Bible god is not my idea of fun.



Greeting
Everybody has an eternal soul

We read in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole *spirit, soul, and body* be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here in 1 Peter 2:24-25 (NKJV)  who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

The Phrase having died to sins, meaning the mortal body our flash is a state of sin, no one is forced to go the our heavenly father, the God that creates humanity 

Genesis 1:26-27 (NKJV) Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
So God created man in His _own_ image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

You say that God is evil

We read in John 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Isaiah 53:5-6 (NKJV) But He _was_ wounded for our transgressions, _He was_ bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace _was_ upon Him, And by His stripes, we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, everyone, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

*Not perish from what your evil sins, he made a way for you and anyone*

We read in Romans 6:20-23 (NKJV) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things _is_ death.
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
For the wages of sin _is_ death, but the gift of God _is_ eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

*What did the Lord see in as he looks upon the evil part of man?*

We in Psalm 53:2-3 (NKJV) God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are _any_ who understand, who seek God.
Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; _There is_ none who does good, No, not one.
Genesis 6:11-13 (NKJV) The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

*What happen to a unborn corrupt person, Purgatory, this a state of perdition, eternal perdition separated of all that is good, remember the body has an eternal soul, the soul of person is in the image of the true God, our God is the God of Israel is also is the God of the gentile 
But before all this happens the Lord is a sovereign God, this means that you may confess your sin and ask for forgiveness*

Romans 10:8-11 (NKJV) But what does it say? _"The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"_ (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, _"Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

*Everyone has a choice, make it a good one
*_


----------



## Gardenlover (Jan 29, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> Not always true. The numbers of people who are opening their eyes and minds and willing to question religious and spiritual beliefs is staggering. At all age groups, But especially the senior population. I am amazed at how many that were a member of the clergy (all faith flavors) and those who were Christian believers for a life time that are finally waking up and paying attention to the facts and truth, not just what they were told to believe. People are hurting and wanting to find something that actually does as advertised and improves life. They realize that  a lifetime of Christianity wasn't it.


These types of discussions are a bit like statistics. Results vary depending on the sample data collected and generally tend to be skewed towards the particular outcome the person wishes to embrace. Without cited references it's next to impossible to know if the data is accurate, from a reputable source, or just the babbling of a mad man. As others have pointed out why not let others have their beliefs and go your way in peace? Is it a matter of ego, doubt, fear or something else that keeps the argument going?


----------



## Homeschoolie (Jan 29, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> These types of discussions are a bit like statistics. Results vary depending on the sample data collected and generally tend to be skewed towards the particular outcome the person wishes to embrace. Without cited references it's next to impossible to know if the data is accurate, from a reputable source, or just the babbling of a mad man. As others have pointed out why not let others have their beliefs and go your way in peace? Is it a matter of ego, doubt, fear or something else that keeps the argument going? View attachment 89515



What statistics? This was not taken from statistics, but the large numbers of people who are writing about this on ex Christian and other subject matter forums and magazine articles.. And openly speaking to people around them  letting others know about their frustration, hurt, pain and much more. Especially how they are angry for being duped. How the whole belief system hurt and in some cases ruined their lives. There may be research polls with statistics. But what people are saying and feeling and have experienced is what matters.


----------



## Gardenlover (Jan 29, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> What statistics? This was not taken from statistics, but the large numbers of people who are writing about this on ex Christian and other subject matter forums and magazine articles.. And openly speaking to people around them  letting others know about their frustration, hurt, pain and much more. Especially how they are angry for being duped. How the whole belief system hurt and in some cases ruined their lives. There may be research polls with statistics. But what people are saying and feeling and have experienced is what matters.


Blah blah blah - so YOU say, nothing ever cited - all hearsay and thus thrown out. I'm not eating a piece of your garbage cake. I believe in unicorns - everyone is talking about them so they have to be real. Serious question - why do you or anyone else care what others believe, unless it's to start a war. Chill out already. I'm done with this particular conversation. It's egotistical and quite pointless and infringes on my happy go lucky spirit. Love ya - go in peace.


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## jerry old (Jan 29, 2020)

This thread is not going to alter anyone's stance: Then why do we keep posting words
that others disagree with?
As a believer, I need to remind myself-this is frivolous behavior on my part; yet, I continue to be involved.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

jerry r. garner said:


> This thread is not going to alter anyone's stance: Then why do we keep posting words
> that others disagree with?
> As a believer, I need to remind myself-this is frivolous behavior on my part; yet, I continue to be involved.



Yes your right if anything it to informs or to enlighten one's belief it is said one can agree and disagree, but respect each other, we all hope, we all love and we always want the best for everyone we are Americans land of the Brave


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## DaveA (Jan 29, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> For the same reason, seeking the truth, better understanding  and improvement of life circumstances.



Haha - -You just keep on seeking and condense your findings for those of us who don't find this "believe it or not" subject terribly important. 

You'll enjoy the search and it'll save the rest of us, who are evidently wandering through a meaningless life, a lot of dreary reading.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

non-believers only strengthen the faith of a believer' does the truth knows the truth?


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## Keesha (Jan 29, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> we are Americans land of the Brave
> View attachment 89543



Not all of us are.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Not all of us are.



are Americans against Americans?


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## Keesha (Jan 29, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> are Americans against Americans?


I don’t know. I’m not American. That’s all I’m saying. 
Perhaps a tad nit picky on my behalf?


----------



## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I don’t know. I’m not American. That’s all I’m saying.
> Perhaps a tad nit picky?



are  their human against  human


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## Keesha (Jan 29, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> are  their human against  human


I honestly don’t understand your question. 
I’m not against anything here. I’m just saying that we aren’t all American. It’s not a criticism


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Canada an extent, the UK is the fraternal twin of America


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I honestly don’t understand your question.
> I’m not against anything here. I’m just saying that we aren’t all American. It’s not a criticism



enjoy


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## Keesha (Jan 29, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> Canada an extent, the UK is the fraternal twin of America
> View attachment 89552


Awwww.... why thank you. 
Canadian   here


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)




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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Awwww.... why thank you. ❤
> Canadian   here


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## Floridatennisplayer (Jan 29, 2020)

I read my Bible every day. Not out of service but out of the joy I get from it.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)

Floridatennisplayer said:


> I read my Bible every day. Not out of service but out of the joy I get from it.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 29, 2020)




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## Capt Lightning (Jan 30, 2020)

I like the old Dave Allen joke about the priest and the atheist having an argument..
Priest: You're like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.
Atheist : You too are like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there -
               Only you found it !


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## pleinmont (Jan 30, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> Greeting
> Everybody has an eternal soul
> 
> We read in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole *spirit, soul, and body* be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> ...



The Bible is no sort of evidence for anything, imo.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 30, 2020)

Hominids first appeared around 5 million years ago.  They evolved through several sub species, ending up with Homo Sapiens, the first being about 200,000 years ago.  
Why ? did God not get it right first time?  Why did he kill off the dinosaurs?  Why wait until 2000 years ago for an itinerant preacher (allegedly the son of God) to appear?   Why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?  I don't mean man-made events such as war, but innocent children dying of terrible diseases?  What's this "benevolent" god doing about it?  Expecting us to fall on our knees and worship it?

Sorry folks, we're here as the end product of millions of years of evolution.  We are here once and it is for us to work together to make the world a good place to live in.  There's no god - It's all down to us.


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## pleinmont (Jan 30, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> Hominids first appeared around 5 million years ago.  They evolved through several sub species, ending up with Homo Sapiens, the first being about 200,000 years ago.
> Why ? did God not get it right first time?  Why did he kill off the dinosaurs?  Why wait until 2000 years ago for an itinerant preacher (allegedly the son of God) to appear?   Why is there so much pain and suffering in the world?  I don't mean man-made events such as war, but innocent children dying of terrible diseases?  What's this "benevolent" god doing about it?  Expecting us to fall on our knees and worship it?
> 
> Sorry folks, we're here as the end product of millions of years of evolution.  We are here once and it is for us to work together to make the world a good place to live in.  There's no god - It's all down to us.



That is how I see it. If a god exists why does it stay hidden and its existence a matter of faith?


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## Keesha (Jan 30, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> That is how I see it. If a god exists why does it stay hidden and its existence a matter of faith?


Who says it’s hidden?


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## pleinmont (Jan 30, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Who says it’s hidden?


I have never seen it, nor have others, those who claim to have done so have an overactive imagination, imo.


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## Keesha (Jan 30, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> I have never seen it, nor have others, those who claim to have done so have an overactive imagination, imo.


And of course you are entitled to your opinion. 
Reality IS individual perspective after all.


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## pleinmont (Jan 30, 2020)

Keesha said:


> And of course you are entitled to your opinion.
> Reality IS individual perspective after all.


 If god exists and reveals itself to some but not to others, why play stupid games and not make its presence known to all in a way which is clear to all?


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## Keesha (Jan 30, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> If god exists and reveals itself to some but not to others, why play stupid games and not make its presence known to all in a way which is clear to all?


Sorry but I do not have an answer to that.


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## pleinmont (Jan 30, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Sorry but I do not have an answer to that.



If the Biblical god character exists and the deeds attributed to it are factual, it would appear to get a kick out of human suffering.


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## Pecos (Jan 30, 2020)

I think I need to start using the ignor function.


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## Homeschoolie (Jan 30, 2020)

Floridatennisplayer said:


> I read my Bible every day. Not out of service but out of the joy I get from it.



But here is part of the problem Which bible?

The ancient early Greek and Christians writings before they were labeled Christians.
The Pauline version, the Essenes, the Zealots, the Jewish multiple versions, the Gnostics versions, the Sadducees and Pharisees versions.
The, early and later, Popes versions before they were called Catholics.
Constantine's version.
The King James rewrite by a poet to make it sound pretty.
The Koran, Mormon, Catholic bibles. Then of course the LDS, Nag Hammadi/Dead Sea Scrolls and many others.
Then there are the 3 dozen modern rewrites to browse through.
Then there are the 130 writings/books that were purposely left out of the bible.
Accuracy and consistency just does not exist. Your choices are numerous.
Every version leaves out whole passages, whole books, numerous verses; and adds others in just for fun
They all use different words with very different meanings. Numerous words meant one thing long ago and the same word means something totally different later on and again a different meaning in our times. 
The meaning of a word in Greek, Aramaic, English, Hebrew can be and often is different
Every version rewrite puts their own spin/angle on what is being taught/emphasized and for different reasons!


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## Pepper (Jan 30, 2020)

Pecos said:


> I think I need to start using the ignor function.


You are a grown up man and do not need a button or function to ignore.  You can do that all on your own.


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## win231 (Jan 30, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> That is how I see it. If a god exists why does it stay hidden and its existence a matter of faith?


Religious Faith:  A belief in something that your common sense tells you it couldn't possibly have happened.
I recall an episode of "Three's Company."  "Chrissy" - the blonde played by Suzanne Sommers was getting a visit from her father, who was a minister.  Chrissy didn't want her father to know that she & another female roommate were living with a man (John Ritter) because he wouldn't approve.  When her father found out, he threw a fit, but after he met the guy & was reassured that there was no sex going on, he was OK with it. 

Someone asked him if he really believed nothing was going on.  He said, "Of course I believe it.  I also believe in the parting of the Red Sea."


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## Pecos (Jan 30, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You are a grown up man and do not need a button or function to ignore.  You can do that all on your own.


You are right, of course, I was probably expressing a degree of dismay about some of the absolute views on this thread.


----------



## win231 (Jan 30, 2020)

Pecos said:


> You are right, of course, I was probably expressing a degree of dismay about some of the absolute views on this thread.


What do you expect?  It's a religious discussion.


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## Keesha (Jan 30, 2020)

Pecos said:


> You are right, of course, I was probably expressing a degree of dismay about some of the absolute views on this thread.


Well how dare you. 

Just kidding.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 30, 2020)

pleinmont said:


> That is how I see it. If a god exists why does it stay hidden and its existence a matter of faith?
> 
> *The question, why does God not exists in my life, or hidden from me*
> To everything_ there is_ a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
> ...


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 30, 2020)

Do I believe in God? Not in the same way that I believe that the earth's atmosphere is roughly 80% oxygen and 20% oxygen but I choose to place my trust and faith in a benevolent presence that I have experienced personally. I can tell you that that experience shook me to my core although it was in no way threatening or frightening. 

Occasionally I voice my thoughts to the presence and it matters not to me that this is irrational. My image of God transcends all religious dogma but it is in the teachings of one Jesus of Nazareth that I find inspiration and a reason to commit to something much bigger than myself.


----------



## drifter (Jan 30, 2020)

I haven’t been to a church service many years. I have always enjoyed what is referred to in my part of the world as Gospel music. The type bill Gaither has been known for. I grew up with that type of church music and I still know many of those old songs. they were the first and easiest I learned to play on a harmonica. i used to attend gospel singings and have been to some of Gaithers sing-songs. i lov that music but I differentiate it from church services. maybe I’m an oddball.


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## Keesha (Jan 30, 2020)

drifter said:


> I haven’t been to a church service many years. I have always enjoyed what is referred to in my part of the world as Gospel music. The type bill Gaither has been known for. I grew up with that type of church music and I still know many of those old songs. they were the first and easiest I learned to play on a harmonica. i used to attend gospel singings and have been to some of Gaithers sing-songs. i lov that music but I differentiate it from church services. maybe I’m an oddball.


Not odd at all.
 I enjoy gospel music also. 
It’s joyous & up lifting.


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## pleinmont (Jan 31, 2020)

A belief only, not a fact.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jan 31, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> but it is in the teachings of one Jesus of Nazareth that I find inspiration and a reason to commit to something much bigger than myself.



In the absence of a god, are the teachings of Jesus any less relevant?


----------



## pleinmont (Jan 31, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> In the absence of a god, are the teachings of Jesus any less relevant?



There is no evidence god exists let alone had intercourse with Mary to produce Jesus. Jesus said some sensible things, and some which weren't at all. But if he actually existed and was not a just created by the gospel writers, he was no more perfect than the rest of us.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 31, 2020)

Taking us off the beaten track now, for which I apologise in advance.

How do you describe mathematics - belief or fact? I'm talking about numbers of every category beyond the elementary counting numbers that we can picture as sets of stones or other concrete objects. Do we believe in irrational numbers such as pi and e because we have definitions that describe them? What about complex numbers? Can you even picture them in your mind? Do they even exist anywhere other than in our imaginations? 

Yet, as difficult it is to imagine such strange, nonmaterial entities, we re happy to believe in their existence and  we depend on them as we apply mathematics to the real and natural world. We have faith in the fruits of mathematics that we don't even fully understand because we experience the fruits.

It could be said that we humans created mathematics but I prefer to say numbers and mathematics has always existed because maths in the language (code) from which the universe was created and which determines everything we know about it. So, do we have faith in  mathematics or do we think of it as a fact which exists whether we believe or not. Is the word mathematics a concrete or abstract noun?

To the ancient Pythagoreans numbers were divine. They worshiped them as perfect entities and sought to discover their secrets. They were fascinated by prime numbers, squares and cubes and sets of numbers that we know today as Pythagorean triads. Needless to say ancient Greeks who worshipped the Olympians found the Pythagoreans to be deluded and heretical. After all their gods were just like us only more powerful. You could easily imagine them, depict them in art and sculpture, sing songs about them and tell their stories. Their gods were much more appealing and much sexier than numbers. Pythagoreans were the weirdos and they ended up being expelled from Greece. The religion died away, but the numbers lived on. 

This what happens in every religion. Something transcendent is sensed but it is indescribable. Indescribable, yet humans always try to convey the experience to others. Every religion has at its core an intangible mystery. Then, being homo sapiens, we try explain that mystery with story telling, art, music, literature  and ritual. And rules, lots of rules. We codify mystery to the point of absurdity. 

However, the eternal question can never be satisfactorily answered by reason alone. It can only be experienced, entered into and, like complex mathematics, accepted for the purpose of moving forward to a deeper understanding. We cannot progress very far in maths if we quickly announce it a load of bollocks and have no further interest.

Archimedes is supposed to have had a flash of insight while taking a bath. So exciting was this revelation that he ran naked through the streets of Athens shouting "Eureka" which means "I have it". The story is certainly apocryphal but the same ecstatic reaction occurs in us when we experience for ourselves the mystery at the core of the universe. Some call it God, others science and mathematics, and some of us know it as perfect love or peace and justice. All of the nouns in the latter sentence are abstract nouns that describe intangible things that we have experienced as real.

I find it valuable to keep an open mind and an open heart.


----------



## pleinmont (Jan 31, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Taking us off the beaten track now, for which I apologise in advance.
> 
> How do you describe mathematics - belief or fact? I'm talking about numbers of every category beyond the elementary counting numbers that we can picture as sets of stones or other concrete objects. Do we believe in irrational numbers such as pi and e because we have definitions that describe them? What about complex numbers? Can you even picture them in your mind? Do they even exist anywhere other than in our imaginations?
> 
> ...



I really don't think you can put maths and religion in the same category. Maths makes much more sense, imo.


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## Sunny (Jan 31, 2020)

Interesting conjecture, Warrigal. But are religion and math really comparable?

Math is borne out by the evidence. It does not involve "codifying mystery to the point of absurdity."


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## Keesha (Jan 31, 2020)

It might not make sense to us but it does to her and I happen to appreciate her loyal dedication to her faith. It’s admirable and isn’t hurting anyone.


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## pleinmont (Jan 31, 2020)

Keesha said:


> It might not make sense to us but it does to her and I happen to appreciate her loyal dedication to her faith. It’s admirable and isn’t hurting anyone.


Hmmmmmmmmmmm!


----------



## C'est Moi (Jan 31, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> I find it valuable to keep an open mind and an open heart.


Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case for many of the posters here.   I will admit that I feel envy when I meet someone with pure faith; it's something I have never been able to understand but I keep searching.


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## Warrigal (Jan 31, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Interesting conjecture, Warrigal. But are religion and math really comparable?
> 
> Math is borne out by the evidence. It does not involve "codifying mystery to the point of absurdity."


All mathematics begins with an assumption, a premise. Take for example the idea that there exist numbers that are negative, that negative three is a real thing. We are happy to assume this much, and then we go on to imagine that there is some other number that when multiplied by itself will produce negative three as the answer. We call that number "imaginary". Does the square root of negative three actually exist? Or is it made up in our minds? It is of any use? Can we live without knowing whether it exists in the real world or not? Does it matter whether we have ever encountered this idea or not? If I reject the premise of a negative number or a number that is unreal does it matter to a serious mathematician?

The parallel with religious faith is strong here if you but think about it for a few minutes.
All religion probably began with primitive man living close to nature, observing the natural world, the rhythm of life, birth and death. The assumption made was that there was some purpose in all of it, that it was not just random happenstance. Does it matter if some people believe that our existence is the accumulation of untold billions of random events going back billions of years and that others see the guiding hand of something that is infinite and eternal? Something from which we inherit our best quality, the ability to love, to sacrifice ourselves for the good of others. Is there not mystery here? Is it not logical to try to discover more about that source? Does it matter if we never really know all the answers? Can we not build on the premise of divine love and seek to apply it, just as we apply mathematics, to our daily living?

Mastery of mathematics, of logic, and of rational thinking has resulted in the technological world we inhabit in the 21sr century. It has allowed us to find cures and vaccines for diseases that didn't even exist for primitive people. It has carried some of us to the Moon and back. It has also allowed us to kill one another on an industrial scale, weaponise diseases such anthrax and harness the energy of the core of the building blocks of our planet, the atomic nucleus, to threaten other nations and bend them to our will lest they try to do the same to us. Logic and mathematics has made us more powerful but it has not improved humanity all that much. We still face the same dilemma that the cave people faced. Why is there good and evil in this world? Is it something born in us? Can we overcome our worst nature and if we did, how would life be different?

Does it really matter that we do not all agree on the answers? Must we attack each other to assert our own beliefs over the convictions of others?


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 31, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case for many of the posters here.   I will admit that I feel envy when I meet someone with pure faith; it's something I have never been able to understand but I keep searching.



don't be fool by happiness or sadness, you are not alone, faith is what you want it to be, just as anybody 
There no such thing as a social faith club


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 31, 2020)

*Isaiah 55:1-3 (NKJV) *Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price.
Why do you spend money for _what is_ not bread, And your wages for _what_ does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat _what is_ good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you-- The sure mercies of David.
*Isaiah 55:6-7 (NKJV) *Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him or my daughters; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
*Revelation 3:20 (NKJV) *Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with Me.


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 31, 2020)

*What he did for us* 
*John 17:1-26 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven*, and said: "Father, *the hour has come*. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 
as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 

*The Trial*
Matt 27:1-27 When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. 
And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 
Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "*I have sinned by betraying innocent blood*." And they said, "What _is that_ to us? You see _to it!"_ 
Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. 

Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 
For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy. 
While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, "Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him." 
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 
The governor answered and said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" They said, "Barabbas!" 
Pilate said to them, "What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" _They_ all said to him, "*Let Him be crucified!"* 
Then the governor said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they cried out all the more, saying, *"Let Him be crucified!" *
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather _that_ a tumult was rising, he took water and washed _his_ hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see _to it."_ 
And all the people answered and said, "*His blood be on us and on our children."* 
Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered _Him_ to be crucified.

*The Crucifixion
Four aspects of Christ and his suffering; 
(1)* physical suffering by the hands of men tied Jesus to post and whipped down and scorn by men for six hours non-stop after they fashion a crown and trusted upon his head, then tried by his people, and sentenced to death, he carry his cross about 3 hours across a road call by Via Dolorosa (Latin for Way of Grief or Way of Suffering) at 9 am begin to put him on the cross.

*(2)* physical suffering, at stretched him on the cross, drove stakes into his hands and feet and then crucifixion, was a death of slow suffocation, every time he wanted to breathe the pain in his wrist and hands, then his feet once he could no longer use the wrist and hands. From the tip of his fingers to the tip of his toes and all in between, he felt the horrible pain of crucifixion at 12 noon.

* (3)* All the guilt for all the sin of all his elect, God the Father said, he bore our sin in his body and said this that Jesus Christ on the cross became the object of God’s judgment and punishment. On top of that, he took our shame, guilt, sins, complaints, selfishness, pride and every drop of our faults, we are just one of these persons, multiply the guilt, shame, sins, etc. by a billion people, you and I could never begin to acknowledge it.  The crucifixion was not just a man dying, it was the son of God, which hated sin, had no part of sin, which was bearing the guilt, the awesome powerful weight of all of the elect.

* (4)* part of his suffering was the fact that those he loved, the disciples which he ate, slept and taught with, he shared the revelation of the truth of God with them, things no one had ever heard, here he was crying out to His Father on the toughest night if it be you will let this cup pass over me, the disciples fell asleep in his moment of need.                                                                                                                       When he was hanging on the cross, he said 12 hours my God, my God why have you forsaken me, and 3 hours in hell, it was bad enough he was abandoned by his friends, but abandoned by his heavenly father, my God, my God why have you forsaken me. He knew why he came, to give his life for a ransom for many and brought up those in hell.                                                                                                           When God saw him he saw him as sin, the sin-bearer.                                                                                                               
All the judgment of God came upon Jesus.                                                                                                                          
All that God saw in Jesus was pure sin.                                                                                                                                                       
All the judgment of God came on sin that he had hated so much; the wickedness of sin poured down his fury came upon him.                     The object of God’s hatred and animosity.

* (5)* All the sin stored up all those years from time pass to the very president, and the future God in all his fury and hatred of sin came upon the Lord Jesus Christ, he punished Jesus for your sin and my sin.                                                                                                                   Everything God the Father hated about the sin he punished Jesus with, wave after wave of God’s wrath, wave after wave of God’s judgment, then it subsided and Jesus said it was finished.                                                                                                                                     The final sacrifice, the atonement of the son of the elect, Suddenly it was over and then Jesus said, into thy hands I commend my spirit, there is no death like the death of Jesus, cause no one ever bore the weight of our sin or the wrath of God as he did.                                     The grace of God the Father. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


----------



## Murphy (Jan 31, 2020)

I dont go and haven't been for many many years after realising in my youth he wasn't listening to me. 
Good luck to those who choose to believe, but DON'T dare to ever force your beliefs on me
Both my former wives were religious, but when the proverbial hit the fan they turned out to be the nastiest, heartless, vindictive, cold-blooded creatures I have ever encountered in my life


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## TheWordIsOne (Jan 31, 2020)

Murphy said:


> I dont go and haven't been for many many years after realising in my youth he wasn't listening to me.
> Good luck to those who choose to believe, but DON'T dare to ever force your beliefs on me
> Both my former wives were religious, but when the proverbial hit the fan they turned out to be the nastiest, heartless, vindictive, cold-blooded creatures I have ever encountered in my life



*Greeting I know the feeling, you are not alone 
John 10:10-16 (NKJV) *The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have _it_ more abundantly. 
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 
But a hireling, _he who is_ not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 
The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 
I am the good shepherd, and I know My _sheep_ and am known by My own. 
As the Father knows Me, even so, I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice, and there will be one flock _and_ one shepherd.


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## Homeschoolie (Feb 1, 2020)

Feeling or seeing the presence of spiritual beings and hearing voices is a result of triggering a couple of small areas of the brain. Scientists create the God and Devil experience with tiny, undetectable to the recipient, electric currents to stimulate these areas. Medications, hormone and chemical imbalances also provide the same result. Especially the brain chemicals/neurotransmitters.
I saw life size standing in front of me (and heard loudly and clearly) God and the Devil when I took Advil. They looked like they were  real, solid, flesh and blood.
My body is allergic to something in that particular formulation. After it happened a couple times never took another one and never had that experience again.
Some have the God experience leave them and never return with just a small, short term, dose of Lithium Mineral Supplement.
There are other brain transmitter chemicals that when unbalanced cause the same phenomena.


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## win231 (Feb 1, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> Feeling or seeing the presence of spiritual beings and hearing voices is a result of triggering a couple of small areas of the brain. Scientists create the God and Devil experience with tiny, undetectable to the recipient, electric currents to stimulate these areas. Medications, hormone and chemical imbalances also provide the same result. Especially the brain chemicals/neurotransmitters.
> I saw life size standing in front of me (and heard loudly and clearly) God and the Devil when I took Advil. They looked like they real, solid, flesh and blood.
> My body is allergic to something in that particular formulation. After it happened a couple times never took another one and never had that experience again.
> Some have the God experience leave them and never return with just a small, short term, dose of Lithium Mineral Supplement.
> There are other brain transmitter chemicals that when unbalanced cause the same phenomena.


Wow, that's like....far out, man....


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## Butterfly (Feb 1, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> All mathematics begins with an assumption, a premise. Take for example the idea that there exist numbers that are negative, that negative three is a real thing. We are happy to assume this much, and then we go on to imagine that there is some other number that when multiplied by itself will produce negative three as the answer. We call that number "imaginary". Does the square root of negative three actually exist? Or is it made up in our minds? It is of any use? Can we live without knowing whether it exists in the real world or not? Does it matter whether we have ever encountered this idea or not? If I reject the premise of a negative number or a number that is unreal does it matter to a serious mathematician?
> 
> The parallel with religious faith is strong here if you but think about it for a few minutes.
> All religion probably began with primitive man living close to nature, observing the natural world, the rhythm of life, birth and death. The assumption made was that there was some purpose in all of it, that it was not just random happenstance. Does it matter if some people believe that our existence is the accumulation of untold billions of random events going back billions of years and that others see the guiding hand of something that is infinite and eternal? Something from which we inherit our best quality, the ability to love, to sacrifice ourselves for the good of others. Is there not mystery here? Is it not logical to try to discover more about that source? Does it matter if we never really know all the answers? Can we not build on the premise of divine love and seek to apply it, just as we apply mathematics, to our daily living?
> ...



Warri, I agree.  I believe we all have the right to our own beliefs, no matter how irrational those beliefs may sound to others.  I also strongly feel that we all  have the right to hold those beliefs without being attacked because of them or have said beliefs belittled and mocked unless we are trying to cram said beliefs down the throat of another, i.e., I believe I have the right to assert that I am a Christian without someone else stating that I must be dimwitted or deluded for believing as I do.


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## Warrigal (Feb 2, 2020)

I'll match my IQ against anyone who calls me deluded. What an intelligent person should be asking me is why an intelligent atheist like me did a 180 degree turnaround at the age of 33 and hasn't looked back with regret since then.


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## Homeschoolie (Feb 2, 2020)

I want to hear every detail and am totally interested.....What people are leaving in droves and don't want to have in their face anymore is the No show, Do nothing (as promised in the Bible), Help no one, bible gods.  And weary from all of the harm, pain, despair, suffering done to peoples lives by their religions.

I am very interested in any encounter with some form of energy/spirit being....most people of any belief are! Most who have left, or never believed in, the God religions are still openly searching for the truth of who/what really does exist.


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## Warrigal (Feb 2, 2020)

I'll talk about my wake up call as a side conversation but not today because I'm about to become very busy.


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## Pepper (Feb 2, 2020)

@TheWordIsOne 
Do you know how to express yourself without cutting & pasting?


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 2, 2020)

Pepper said:


> @TheWordIsOne
> Do you know how to express yourself without cutting & pasting?



yes just ask me an honest question I give you my best answer, I express myself in many ways with love


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 2, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> I want to hear every detail and am totally interested.....What people are leaving in droves and don't want to have in their face anymore is the No show, Do nothing (as promised in the Bible), Help no one, bible gods.  And weary from all of the harm, pain, despair, suffering done to peoples lives by their religions.
> 
> I am very interested in any encounter with some form of energy/spirit being....most people of any belief are! Most who have left, or never believed in, the God religions are still openly searching for the truth of who/what really does exist.



You exist and you are unique you deserve the truth, but also remember the truth is God the Father he does exist, religion only separates people, but love is true


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## Nautilus (Feb 2, 2020)

911 said:


> It never hurts for any of us to believe. It doesn’t take any effort, money or even your attendance in church. All you need to do is to say to yourself, “I believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as my Savior.”


That's just not true.  A person cannot suddenly believe something by choice.  A belief is the result of processing information and reaching a conclusion.  Saying something does not make it so.  If that were true, you could say, "I do NOT believe in Jesus Christ and I do NOT accept him as my savior."  Would that change your belief?  Of course not.


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## Lc jones (Feb 3, 2020)

I have no problem with a difference of opinion....., but there is a difference between mature discourse and mud slinging/name calling.


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## Pepper (Feb 3, 2020)

Some folks are so hyper sensitive that they view any opposition as mud slinging/name calling.


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

In my experience, the very religious Christians are either those who were raised that way from birth or who have had a traumatic experience they just can't handle, hence they turn the paths of their lives over to Jesus.  Neither will listen to logic, reason or common sense.  Then there are those who begin sentences with, "What God meant was..." or "What Jesus meant was..."  How arrogant.  They have a Biblical answer for everything. However, the Bible is so full of contradictions, any point of view can be justified by "the righteous."  I still haven't figured out how there can be a version (King James) of the word of God.

Ever wonder why the Bible omits so many little things...like North and South America, Asia, Australia and the better part of Africa?  Simple.  The Bible was written by ignorant men, 1,500 years before they figured out that the world isn't flat, who had no idea that those continents existed.  God would know.

There are roughly two million animal species on earth.  Two of each makes four million.  How about those dinosaurs aboard the Ark Encounter?  Two apatosaurus would weigh right around 100,000 lbs.  At the figure of 880 lbs/day of puzzlegrass each, scientists have estimated that Noah would have had to load over 70,000 lbs. in order to feed them for 40 days and 40 nights... and that only covers how long it rained.  It doesn't account for all the time it took for the water to recede.  After gathering 70,000 lbs of puzzlegrass, Noah only needed to gather food for the remaining 3,999,998 animals.  Problems with waste disposal come to mind.  Now refresh my memory...how many cubits was the ark?

If a school with 100 children catches fire and only five survive, the Christians thank God for saving them.  Predictably, God never gets the blame for the ninety five children were burned alive.  Isn't everything that happens the will of God?  "God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform." - William Cowper   Well, William...it's all a mystery to me.

Intelligence can be a real burden at times but I'm not really worried.  If God made me and I just don't "get it," I figure it's His fault.


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## Homeschoolie (Feb 3, 2020)

I stopped going to church because:

Even if I could ignore the amount of human suffering and death because the Bible Gods wont answer even one unwavering faith filled prayer for physical healing made by kind, loving,100% walking the walk not just talking the talk believers .... especially the babies, people who lose eyes, are seriously crippled/mutilated etc. These break my heart beyond words.

There is the Bible 2.0 barbaric, bloody sacrifice, blood atonement, eating flesh and drinking blood that we must believe in, worship, praise, LOVE and be grateful for or we aren't saved.

EEEwwwww! That should cause any rational thinking human to run like hell in the opposite direction! I did.

An awesome omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent, all power, LOVING God has absolutely no need to have a human being savagely beaten, so much that he wasn't recognizable as a man, and hung up on a cross to die, because he is powerless to save us any other way! (this mode of killing was very common and was done to thousands of people...are they ALL our savior too?)

Yet Christians dismiss every other religion or spiritual belief as wicked, evil, pagan, of the devil,  evil spirits, scary and dangerous.

The bloody human sacrifice story is much more pagan, barbaric, evil and scary then anything that every other belief system I have studied, teaches and does. Weelll , with the exception of a very few extremist Satanists/wiccans/others and just a few small tribal religions...but they at least only kill animals and then eat them as a meal after the ceremony!


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

Homeschoolie said:


> An awesome omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent, all power, LOVING God has absolutely no need to have a human being savagely beaten, so much that he wasn't recognizable as a man, and hung up on a cross to die, because he is powerless to save us any other way! (this mode of killing was very common and was done to thousands of people...are they ALL our savior too?)



How is creating a son and then torturing/killing him a way to remove sin?  It absolutely makes no sense.  I suppose only all the previous sin was removed because ever since Jesus was crucified, there's been a hell of a lot of sinners...nearly 2,000 years worth...the same length of time people have been predicting his return.

Religion controls and seperates people...for a price.  No taxes. Can I get an amen?


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 3, 2020)

Can somebody please tell me what is this "sin" that Jesus is supposed to have died for?  
Was it something fundamental of a collection of minor disgressions ?  Since I do not believe in the existence of 'God', Jesus cannot be the son of God.  As I see it, he was little more than a deluded itinerant preacher who became so popular that the authorities felt threatened and decided to get rid of him.   However, the PR machine swung into action and he ended up more famous dead than when he was alive.  A rather simplistic view, but I think it fits the bill.


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## Homeschoolie (Feb 3, 2020)

Nautilus said:


> How is creating a son and then torturing/killing him a way to remove sin?  It absolutely makes no sense.  I suppose only all the previous sin was removed because ever since Jesus was crucified, there's been a hell of a lot of sinners...nearly 2,000 years worth...the same length of time people have been predicting his return.
> 
> Religion controls and seperates people...for a price.  No taxes. Can I get an amen?


Amen. And more then just no taxes....easy, do almost nothing for their money, job. And the congregation pays for their 4-6 kids (you notice almost all clergy (except Catholics of course) have that many kids) to go to Oral Roberts/other expensive universities. While the congregations kids can't afford to go or  need to get jobs to work their way through. Often when the clergies kids graduate they just join daddies church/ministry or start their own and never get a real job.


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## Pepper (Feb 3, 2020)

@Capt Lightning 
I've always blamed Constantine, and especially his mother.


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> Can somebody please tell me what is this "sin" that Jesus is supposed to have died for?
> Was it something fundamental of a collection of minor disgressions ?  Since I do not believe in the existence of 'God', Jesus cannot be the son of God.  As I see it, he was little more than a deluded itinerant preacher who became so popular that the authorities felt threatened and decided to get rid of him.   However, the PR machine swung into action and he ended up more famous dead than when he was alive.  A rather simplistic view, but I think it fits the bill.



The sin is "original sin," all brought down upon us by Eve, who seduced Adam with the forbidden fruit.

(An aside:  Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel.  Cain killed Abel . That left Adam, Cain and mom.  From there the earth was populated? We're all the product of incest?  Maybe that's the original sin...Eve's sin, that bitch!  Also, Cain was banished to the land of Nod where he fathered decendants...with whom?  The Bible doesn't seem to concern itself with details.  Just shut up and believe!)

Concerning Jesus, I think you pretty much nailed it.


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Testing if God is truth and omnipotent
What does it me to believe if what one said to me about an invisible God?
Cannot see him or her, nor hear this person even if it is a person, what or how do I begin, the all time challenge of my life, my soul.

Fist you ask many questions, I find books about the subject, I go to many different culture to ask what they believe in, seek the finest mind in this subject, evaluate all the amount of information of all I gathered, take note of everyone opinion always have an open mind about everything, do not despise anyone believe, who if there is a true God from the information of all I gathered, many say He is watching and waiting.

Now as I seek truth and gathered much information, and it took a very long time, what I do next?   
I test everything, even God himself. I do something unusual something unique because I’m looking for truth.
All this depends rather I believe in something or not, my choice? Or will to believe.

 I am a skeptic, I believe in facts, not theory substance, if a God does exist, I test the theory or the formula. This is the mind of men or women.
There is a history of our human experience, our past, that reflects our future, one ripple in time affects the other, one person belief affects the other, test the theory whether God exists or not? I do something unusual or something unique to get God’s attention, I challenge him or her.
Now I look into the past to meet this challenge, what it says? I know if God does exists he or she will eventually find me as I do the same.

*Testing if God is truth and omnipotent
Num 14:22 (NKJV) *because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,)

*Judges 6:39 (NKJV)* Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me, but let me speak just once more: Let me test, I pray, just once more with the fleece; let it now be dry only on the fleece, but on all the ground let there be dew."

*Psalm 95:9 (NKJV) *When your fathers tested Me; They tried Me, though they saw My work.

*Psalm 78:18 (NKJV) *And they tested God in their heart By asking for the food of their fancy.

*Acts 5:9 (NKJV) * Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband _are_ at the door, and they will carry you out."

*Deuteronomy 6:16 (NKJV) *"You shall not tempt the LORD your God as you tempted _Him_ in Massah.

*Matthew 4:7 (NKJV) *Jesus said to him, "It is written again, _'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' "_

*Hebrews 3:9 (NKJV) *_Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,_ _And saw My works forty years._

*Exodus 17:2 (NKJV) *Therefore the people contended with Moses, and said, "Give us water, that we may drink." And Moses said to them, "Why do you contend with me? Why do you tempt the LORD?"
*All that texting and challenge Wow! what do you think?*
*Jeremiah 33:3 (NKJV) * 'Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.'
*Malachi 3:10 (NKJV) *Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you _such_ blessing That _there will_ not _be room_ enough _to receive it._


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## exwisehe (Feb 3, 2020)

Why don't you, personally, alone and in your room or private place, make a test of God?
Do this: open your bible, say to the gospel of John, and pray a prayer like this:
Dear God,
  I am searching with a pure mind and heart, honestly seeking You.  If You are real, speak to me and let me know it.
I stand ready to receive You. Thank You for loving me.  Amen


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> Why don't you, personally, alone and in your room or private place, make a test of God?
> Do this: open your bible, say to the gospel of John, and pray a prayer like this:
> Dear God,
> I am searching with a pure mind and heart, honestly seeking You.  If You are real, speak to me and let me know it.
> I stand ready to receive You. Thank You for loving me.  Amen



t*he test is for those yet have doubt, but as for me, this what I do every day, and I miss a few days, he is always with me 
What is a true Christian?*

John 14:15 (NKJV) "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Luke 21:36 (NKJV) Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Luke 10:27 (NKJV) So he answered and said, "_' You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,'_ and _'your neighbor as yourself.' "_
Luke 10:27 (NKJV) So he answered and said, "_' You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,'_ and _'your neighbor as yourself.' "_
1 John 3:9 (NKJV) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone _is_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

*The Testimony of a true Christia*n
Romans 10:10 (NKJV) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13 (NKJV) For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

*Lukewarm Christian, One that says I am but I am not*
James 3:10-12 (NKJV) Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.
Does a spring send forth fresh _water_ and bitter from the same opening?
Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both saltwater and fresh.
1 Corinthians 9:26-27 (NKJV) Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as _one who_ beats the air.
But I discipline my body and bring _it_ into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
2 Corinthians 7:1 (NKJV) Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

*The condition of a promise and a miracle*
Mark 13:33 (NKJV) Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.
Luke 21:36 (NKJV) Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Hebrews 9:28 (NKJV) Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.                                    
To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Remember their two levels of his return, He will appear a second time in the heavens, the last is when he comes down to earth
2 Corinthians 7:1-2 (NKJV) Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh, and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God
Open _your hearts_ to us, We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, and we have cheated no one.
Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares _us,_ and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Revelation 21:7 (NKJV) He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Philippians 2:5-8 (NKJV)  Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, _and_ coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to _the point of_ death, even the death of the cross.
Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV) "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Now five of them were wise, and five _were_ foolish.
Those who _were_ foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight a cry was _heard:_ 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us _some_ of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
But the wise answered, saying, '_No,_ lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
Afterward, the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

TheWordIsOne:  I think you may be on the wrong forum.  To have an opinion is one thing but preaching and sermonizing is quite another.  Be content in your belief but please refrain from posting as a self-styled missionary.  It's presumptuous.


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Nautilus said:


> TheWordIsOne:  I think you may be on the wrong forum.  To have an opinion is one thing but preaching and sermonizing is quite another.  Be content in your belief but please refrain from posting as a self-styled missionary.  It's presumptuous.



the best thing in life is to do others wishes you not to do it call freedom


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## Pepper (Feb 3, 2020)

Enigmatic, yet ponderously pestiferous.


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Enigmatic, yet ponderously pestiferous.


Very incisive. I wish I had said that.


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Enigmatic, yet ponderously pestiferous.



Enigmatic yes but  pestiferous be careful and ponderously yes people are very hard of hearing, to know thyself is to know others


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> Enigmatic yes but  pestiferous be careful and ponderously yes people are very hard of hearing, to know thyself is to know others


How about a little punctuation in the future.  Reading your posts is like trying to break a code.


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Nautilus said:


> How about a little punctuation in the future.  Reading your posts is like trying to break a code.



exactly


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

TheWordIsOne said:


> exactly


STOP! Just stop.  Enough already.


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Nautilus said:


> STOP! Just stop.  Enough already.



then why are you responding I see a conscience


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Enigmatic, yet ponderously pestiferous.



still waiting for that honest question or people are just Enigmatic, yet ponderously pestiferous.


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## Pepper (Feb 3, 2020)

You won't be getting any questions from me.  I find you to be a tedious provocateur.  In other words, yawn.

eta
Also, a plagiarist, as you don't quote your sources when you lift their work, i.e. post 258.


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You won't be getting any questions from me.  I find you to be a tedious provocateur.  In other words, yawn.


"Here's lookin' at you, kid!" - Richard Blaine


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You won't be getting any questions from me.  I find you to be a tedious provocateur.  In other words, yawn.
> 
> eta
> Also, a plagiarist, as you don't quote your sources when you lift their work, i.e. post 258.



that was an honest question, in any case, words are effective you understood my language, but I see you as a provocateur, your word show it, at less your friend have a conscience


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## TheWordIsOne (Feb 3, 2020)

Nautilus said:


> "Here's lookin' at you, kid!" - Richard Blaine




Richard Blaine
Elvis Presley


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## Nautilus (Feb 3, 2020)

Someone needs to stop this.


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