# Pfizer scientists off the record:  Natural immunity better than vaccine.



## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

Went searching for follow up on Israel's recent data showing the superiority of natural immunity and found the link below on an Israeli news site.

Pfizer scientists were filmed by an undercover journalist at a social event and explain to the journalist why natural immunity is better and how they're forbidden to make the info public.

The scientists proved clear explanations of how natural antibodies are better and one states that people who have them should be allowed to prove they do.   "Logically though, like, if you have antibodies built up ...like you should be able to prove that you have those built up."

https://www.projectveritas.com/news...ies-are-probably-better-than-the-vaccination/

I've been saying for months that people with test results showing antibodies should have an immunity passport in lieu of a vaccination card ...feel even more strongly about that now.  It makes sense scientifically.


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## Pepper (Oct 8, 2021)

Why is it that every complaint re:  being vaccinated is linked with rabidly right wing sites like the one directly above?  Why @AnnieA are you getting your "information" from James O'Keefe?  Good grief, what is happening to us as a nation?  There is no common ground.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Why is it that every complaint re:  being vaccinated is linked with rabidly right wing sites like the one directly above?  Why @AnnieA are you getting your "information" from James O'Keefe?  Good grief, what is happening to us as a nation?  There is no common ground.




Yes.  I know they're controversial.   I watched the video and cannot at all see how this one was twisted to deceive.   The Pfizer scientists are quite clear and the fact that natural immunity is better than vaccine induced immunity has already been noted by researchers outside the pharmaceutical industry.

Since we're doing *BOLD* ...

*If you've read any of my posts about US news sources, you know I read from both teams, trust none at face value and look for independent sources to confirm or disprove information.   

There are no unbiased news sources in the US. *


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## Pepper (Oct 8, 2021)

Hi, I should have changed the Bold.  I copied & pasted & did no editing but will in future.  I wasn't yelling at you, I'm just frustrated, @AnnieA.  I found this particular link as one that will never give a truthful story.  I know his work.  I just want more cooperation between the citizens of this nation.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Hi, I should have changed the Bold.  I copied & pasted & did no editing but will in future.  I wasn't yelling at you, I'm just frustrated, @AnnieA.  I found this particular link as one that will never give a truthful story.  I know his work.  I just want more cooperation between the citizens of this nation.



Did you watch this video?   Wish you would and tell me if you think this one is false other than the surreptitious filming.  Does it contain false information?



> I just want more cooperation between the citizens of this nation.



That would be wonderful but isn't going to happen with the two biased sides of our media and our polarized politicians.  It will only happen if people start trying to independently  dig for the truth in the pile of  we're fed.

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## feywon (Oct 8, 2021)

Natural Immunity sounds good till you consider the fact that first you have survive the illness, and the odds of being a 'long hauler' dealing with the effects for perhaps rest of your life.  

i do think people should decide for themselves, and there are medical reason that contraindicate certain vaccines--i delayed my own vaccination by a couple of months looking at info from various sources and weighing the options. 

But at least take other precautions to minimize spread should you be exposed. And there's the rub because the same frame of mind that leads *some* to reject vaccines without looking into specifics and considering their own medical issues is often the same POV that is still *dismissing* the seriousness of this pandemic.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

feywon said:


> Natural Immunity sounds good till you consider the fact that first you have survive the illness, and the odds of being a 'long hauler' dealing with the effects for perhaps rest of your life.
> 
> ...



My focus is on people who have _already_ survived and can get antibodies tested now for an antibody passport in lieu of the vaccine card. If they're tested and don't have antibodies, then the vaccine comes into play.


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## feywon (Oct 8, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> My focus is on people who have _already_ survived and can get antibodies tested now for an antibody passport in lieu of the vaccine card. If they're tested and don't have antibodies, then the vaccine comes into play.


That makes sense, especially since i seem to recall reading that not every survivor develops antibodies.  i remember because it seemed a distinctive feature of this virus.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

feywon said:


> That makes sense, especially since i seem to recall reading that not every survivor develops antibodies.  i remember because it seemed a distinctive feature of this virus.



Yes.  Research shows that those with asymptomatic or very mild cases produce fewer antibodies which makes perfect sense in that the immune system of people with mild cases didn't have to mount a strong level of defense.


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## Sunny (Oct 8, 2021)

This is what happens when politics gets mixed in with medical science.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

Sunny said:


> This is what happens when politics gets mixed in with medical science.



Politics only gets into play if you let it. 

If you read all sources with skepticism, then look for verifying data to disprove or support content,  you're exercising your intelligence and independence against political herding.  If you have a list of 'reputable sources' or 'disreputable sources' you are letting intellectually laziness herd you into a polarized position.


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## win231 (Oct 8, 2021)

Natural Immunity = No profit.
Selling vaccines = Big profit.
Wherever there is profit, we can't expect honesty.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

The most important direct quote from the video by Nick Karl, biochemist.  Content is consistent with recent Israeli findings:

"Because what the vaccine is--is like I said that protein--that's just on the outside.  So it's just one antibody against one specific part of the virus. When you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against, like, multiple pieces of the virus--and not only just like that outside portion, like, the inside portion, the actual virus.  So your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."​​​This is why previously infected people with antibodies as determined by a blood test should be accorded the same rights as people who have been vaccinated.

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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

"Fact checker" linked below who bungles horribly by editing pertinent info from the direct quote above and can only manage to deflect by attacking the source since what is said in the quote above can't be disproved scientifically.   Herding at its worst.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/project-veritas-and-nick-karl-from-pfizer/

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## WhatInThe (Oct 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Why is it that every complaint re:  being vaccinated is linked with rabidly right wing sites like the one directly above?  Why @AnnieA are you getting your "information" from James O'Keefe?  Good grief, what is happening to us as a nation?  There is no common ground.
> 
> Project Veritas​projectveritas.com​Description​Project Veritas is an American far-right activist group founded by James O'Keefe in 2010. The group produces deceptively edited videos of its undercover operations, which use secret recordings in an effort to discredit mainstream media organizations and progressive groups. Wikipedia


I try to focus on the message not the messenger. Broken clocks are right twice a day. Only need one. Alot of media sources are like top 40 radio on any side ie only popular stories with the same slant.


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## Pepper (Oct 8, 2021)

If the messenger is a liar, that makes the message a lie, too.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> If the messenger is a liar, that makes the message a lie, too.


Should be easy to verify. I'm not a fan of video citations especially when the poster doesn't give a summary but videos like this put in context and/or summarized like AnnieA did are a huge start. Veritas is old school gotcha journalism I get that. But did they catch a truth or lie?

Did the messenger lie in this case. Did Pfizer actually issue a denial that this was their employee? Is the message wrong. The virus and vax are only about 2 years old information is changing simply because now there has been time for some study and analyisis.


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## AnnieA (Oct 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> If the messenger is a liar, that makes the message a lie, too.



I don't know or care who sets up the clandestine filming or care about any commentary from the host. Never knew a name behind PV until you posted it and care a big fat zero about his personal spin.

 What I care about is what the Pfizer scientist--Nick Karl-- in the video said as quoted above. The content of his portion of the video is consistent with recent data independent of Pfizer.


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## Lethe200 (Oct 8, 2021)

The problem is that your "natural immunity" is better ONLY against the original coronavirus. That is the Alpha variant.

Unfortunately, the greatest number of COVID infections are NOT from Alpha. They are from the Delta variant -- and your Alpha immunity WILL NOT HELP you against the Delta variant. 

This is why, for example, Ravens QB Lamar Jackson got COVID not just once....but twice. "...As COVID-19 continues to mutate, people may find themselves sick with different strains, Adalja said, a phenomenon that could continue until more people are vaccinated." Lamar Jackson reinfected with COVID 19

This is the problem with coronaviruses. They are aggressive infectors. They will chemically alter themselves into a form (aka variant) that will better infect the victim. Delta, for example, is much more infectious than Alpha COVID-19, both in spreading infection and rapid intensity of symptoms.

Which is why, with each new variant that comes out, the current COVID vaccines are re-tested to see if they will still protect against the newer forms. So far, so good - but eventually like flu vaccines, they will probably need to be "tweaked" to remain effective.


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> I don't know or care who sets up the clandestine filming or care about any commentary from the host. Never knew a name behind PV until you posted it and care a big fat zero about his personal spin.
> 
> What I care about is what the Pfizer scientist--Nick Karl-- in the video said as quoted above. The content of his portion of the video is consistent with recent data independent of Pfizer.


.
* Nick Karl Does NOT Work With COVID-19 Vaccines*

Project Veritas claimed that Nick is a scientist “_who is directly involved in the production of Pfizer’s COVID vaccine_“. *That’s a lie that can be easily proven.*

Nick Karl in the Project Veritas video is actually *Nicholas Karl*, a biochemist who works at Pfizer’s Pearl River R&D facility.

*Not only is Pfizer Pearl River NOT involved in the production of the COVID-19 vaccine, Nick himself is also NOT involved in the production of Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine.*

His (now deleted) LinkedIn profile shows that he is part of the Pfizer team developing the direct Luminex assay for COVID-19 and E. coli vaccines.

In other words, his work involves developing and qualifying a test to *detect the quantity of antibodies* that SARS-CoV-2 and E. coli vaccines produce.

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## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Did you watch this video?   Wish you would and tell me if you think this one is false other than the surreptitious filming.  Does it contain false information?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched the video and looked around on the website. I would not trust that source to provide reliable reporting. I agree that the video appears to be heavily edited. In particular I find the bit about the notion about natural immunity against the inside and the outside of the virus to be rather odd because I don't think that is how immunity works.

I am double vaxxed with AstraZenica and even so, while this pandemic lasts I will still be very cautious when out and about. As soon as our government gets around to it, I will carry a certificate of vaccination to save arguments about whether or not I can enter certain premises. It will just be a matter of showing some ID and the certificate on the iPhone. Hubby doesn't have a smart phone so he will need a paper copy.

I don't mind this minor inconvenience if it helps to keep down the infection rate.


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Went searching for follow up on Israel's recent data showing the superiority of natural immunity and found the link below on an Israeli news site.
> 
> Pfizer scientists were filmed by an undercover journalist at a social event and explain to the journalist why natural immunity is better and how they're forbidden to make the info public.
> 
> ...


Project Veritas lied!!! having a wide range of antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 does not mean that the immunity is better. 

That’s why Nick actually said “*not better, but more antibodies*“.

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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Shero said:


> ...In other words, his work involves developing and qualifying a test to *detect the quantity of antibodies* that SARS-CoV-2 and E. coli vaccines produce.
> 
> .



Then Nick Karl--the biochemist who works (possibly past tense now) at Pfizer’s Pearl River R&D facility-- has exceptional understanding of immunity and antibodies since he is/was developing testing for them for a major pharmaceutical company.  Hope the fact that his LinkedIn profile is down doesn't mean Pfizer fired him for the conversation in the video, but I imagine he violated a non-disclosure agreement.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Lethe200 said:


> The problem is that your "natural immunity" is better ONLY against the original coronavirus. That is the Alpha variant.
> 
> Unfortunately, the greatest number of COVID infections are NOT from Alpha. They are from the Delta variant -- and your Alpha immunity WILL NOT HELP you against the Delta variant.
> 
> ...




Real world data of 16,000 people followed in Israel show natural immunity is more protective than vaccines against the delta variant.  Previously infected study subjects were ill prior to 28 Feb 2021 -- months before delta infections were common.

Here's a good explaination of the findings in laymen's terms.    Link to thread with more information about the Israeli data. Here's the link to the study:  full text pdf

Excerpts:

The results indicate that those who were previously infected by the novel coronavirus had developed better immunity and also faced reduced risk of reinfection, symptomatic disease and hospitalisation due to an infection of the delta variant – versus people who had received both doses of the Pfizer vaccine but hadn’t had COVID-19.​
“... those vaccinated are still at a 5.96-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection and at a 7.13-fold increased risk for symptomatic disease compared to those previously infected. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalisation compared to those who were previously infected.”​​An addition to the quoted findings above the study also found previous infection followed by one dose of the Pfizer vaccine to be very protective against delta.
​


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Shero said:


> ...having a wide range of antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 does not mean that the immunity is better. ...



It appears to to be.  Excerpt of the discussion section at the conclusion of the Israeli study of 16,000 people referenced above.

Excerpt:

The advantageous protection afforded by natural immunity that this analysis demonstrates could be explained by the more extensive immune response to the SARS-CoV-2 proteins than that generated by the anti-spike protein immune activation conferred by the vaccine. However, as a correlate of protection is yet to be proven including the role of B-Cell2and T-cell immunity, this remains a hypothesis.​​​Natural immunity confers protection beyond the one spike protein targeted by mRNA vaccines.  

@Warrigal  ...you questioned the "inside of the virus" bit from the biochemist above.  That's the B-Cell and T-Cell immunity referenced in the indented section above which goes beyond the current outside spike protein focus.  B-Cell and T-Cell immunity are hypothetical only because these researches haven't studied them in this population.  It's a sound premise backed by other recent research findings. A good research study will always conclude with suggestions for further study.


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## Brookswood (Oct 9, 2021)

I'll stick with the two initial shots and the booster shot.

The problem with natural immunity is that one has to risk getting seriously ill to get that immunity, (assuming it is that much better than vaccine immunity).

Note the graph below where people with no vaccine have a higher risk of death from Covid.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Brookswood said:


> I'll stick with the two initial shots and the booster shot.
> 
> The problem with natural immunity is that one has to risk getting seriously ill to get that immunity, (assuming it is that much better than vaccine immunity).
> 
> Note the graph below where people with no vaccine have a higher risk of death from Covid.



I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies.  You're correct ...there's too much risk.

My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does.


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## ManjaroKDE (Oct 9, 2021)

1-  Get the shots.
    (You've probably already had the mumps/measles/rubella/polio/shingles/pneumonia,,,etc. over time.)
2-  If you get Covid it may be milder and not as deadly.
3.  You may end up with natural immunity.
4.  If you don't get Covid, great!
5.  You still have a valid shot card to show around.  
(You can get a cool laminated wallet size for $.39 at Staples.)
6.  You may be protecting others including your children.
7.  Wear your mask, Wash your hands. Stay out of crowds. Good common sense.
8.  Your hay fever may be less taxing and you're not breathing in all that foul polluted air.

Or is that near to impossible task to display your shot card that gets you?
Think of it nothing more than you would showing your driver's license, and how hard is that?
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

ManjaroKDE said:


> Try this again.


What?    Sifting through biased sand to find a flake of gold that's back up by research? I enjoy it and most certainly will again.


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## ManjaroKDE (Oct 9, 2021)

Sorry lost the original you can remove your above 'like' now.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

ManjaroKDE said:


> Sorry lost the original you can remove your above 'like' now.



Your original 'lost' post #28 that only said _"Try this again."_ is quoted in #29 so you'll be happy to know it's not lost, lol.

Your original "Try this again." post is what I 'laughed emojie' reacted to  and replied to ....not your edited version to which I'd already provided an answer for in a reply to another in post #27 that it appears you must have missed.   If you'd read through a thread rather than doing drive by snark, it would save you time in having to delete and rewrite your posts.

In response to your edited post #28:  (copied and pasted from my answer from post #27)

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies. You're correct ...there's too much risk, My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."​​


> Or is that near to impossible task to display your shot card that gets you?
> Think of it nothing more than you would showing your driver's license, and how hard is that.



It's just as easy to produce an antibody test showing protection as it is to produce a vaccine card.


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

.

*Fact #1 : Project Veritas Videos Are Always Misleading*

It is a hallmark of Project Veritas videos that they are secretly recorded, and then *heavily edited* to cast a misleading angle in the story, or to push misinformation. *In other words – propaganda.*

You can watch the video they have been sharing, which we added a *Misleading* overlay to prevent abuse, to see for yourself.

You could find yourself agreeing with them that they “exposed” Nick Karl, but I will show you why it’s just a sleight of hand and why the video is not only misleading, it doesn’t change anything.


*Fact #2 : The Project Veritas Video Was Heavily Edited*

The viral video shows Nick Karl (Nicholas Karl) dining with a lady (from Project Veritas) in a social setting, saying :

_When somebody is naturally immune, like, they got COVID, they probably have better, like, not better, but more antibodies against the virus.

So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination._

Wow, that sounds like an admission that natural immunity is better than vaccination, doesn’t it?

However, Project Veritas edited this part out of the original Nick Karl video :

_Because what the vaccine is – is, like I said, that protein – that’s just on the outside. So it’s just one antibody against one specific part of the virus.

When you actually get the virus, you’re going to start producing antibodies against, like, multiple pieces of virus and not only just like that outside portion, like the inside portion, the actual virus._

*So you have to ask yourself – what else did Project Veritas edit out of the full Nick Karl video?*

No one knows because Project Veritas did not release the full, unedited video.


*Fact #3 : Nothing Nick Said Are Secrets*

At the end of the video, Project Veritas cuts to Nick saying, “_I specifically have, like… Oh God, I signed NDAs against this._”

Sounds incriminating, but we don’t actually know what he’s referring to because … Project Veritas heavily-edited the video and removed all context!

But what may not seem obvious at first glance is this – whatever he said in that video is not exactly correct, and is really not a secret. *It’s just basic virology and vaccine science, so why would he need to sign an NDA?*

Could it be possible he wanted to impress the lady and cooked up that NDA story to make him sound more important? Who knows? Because Project Veritas edited out all context!



*Fact #4 : Antibodies Are Produced Against EXTERNAL Virus Surfaces*

Nick Karl was only partly correct in his explanation in that video.

When the immune system recognises the SARS-CoV-2 virus as foreign, it produces antibodies that attach to the virus surface, blocking it from infecting cells, and flagging it for macrophages to eat and destroy (phagocytosis).

Because the immune system can only see the *EXTERNAL* virus surfaces, it only produces antibodies against the *EXTERNAL* virus surfaces.

Your immune system doesn’t have x-ray vision, and thus cannot produce antibodies against the internal part of the virus – its RNA. Even if it could, the antibodies cannot penetrate the virus to attach to the RNA.


*Fact #5 : More Antibodies Doesn’t Mean Better Immunity*

Nick Karl is correct that your immune system will produce more antibodies because the SARS-CoV-2 virus offers a “complete” range of surfaces for different antibodies to be designed and produced.

However, having a wide range of antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 does not mean that the immunity is better. That’s why Nick actually said “*not better, but more antibodies*“.

In fact, inactivated virus vaccines like the *Sinovac CoronaVac* vaccine are *LESS EFFECTIVE* than mRNA vaccines, even though they offer the complete SARS-CoV-2 virus surface to the immune system.

Antibodies against envelope proteins, for example, may attach to the virus but not prevent it from infecting cells.

That’s why most COVID-19 vaccines target the *spike protein* that the virus uses to infect our cells. Their antibodies will attach to the spike proteins, physically preventing the virus from attaching to our cells.

*We do not just want MORE antibodies, we want MORE antibodies of the RIGHT KIND.


Fact #6 : Natural Immunity Is NOT Robust*

Irrespective of what Nick Karl may have said, and all the videos that Project Veritas may produce, they will not change the fact that *natural immunity to COVID-19 is NOT robust*.

On 10 May 2021, the WHO released a scientific brief on COVID-19 natural immunity, which points out that :

90-99% of infected individuals develop neutralising antibodies within 2-4 weeks of the infection.

1-10% of infected individuals do NOT develop neutralising antibodies at all.

Individuals with *mild / asymptomatic* infection produce LOWER antibodies than those with severe COVID-19.

Natural immunity appears to offer 80-90% protection against reinfection for up to 7 months, but only 50% for people over 65 years old.

Because reinfections (sometimes twice!) have been reported even in younger adults with natural immunity, the WHO and all major health authorities recommend that even people who survive COVID-19 should get vaccinated.



*Fact #7 : Natural Immunity Is Risky*

What Project Veritas does not mention is that for you to gain “natural immunity”, you must first put your life at risk by getting infected with COVID-19.

The risk of dying from COVID-19 ranges from 0.25% to 10%, depending on whether there is ready access to an ICU and ventilator. And even if you do survive, you may have to live with the long COVID.

Vaccines offer a safer way to attain immunity against COVID-19. They are essentially *self-defence classes* that teach our own immune system to identify and create antibodies against COVID-19.


*Choosing to risk your life with a “natural” COVID-19 infection instead of a vaccine, is like refusing to undergo military training before going to battle.
.
.*


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

_Please do not bother to reply to my post AnnieA - nothing you can add is valid.
._


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Shero said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above.  In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.


Once again, as I stated in post #27:

"I'm definitely not advocating passing up on the vaccine to catch Covid for the antibodies.  You're correct ...there's too much risk.  My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."

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## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Real world data of 16,000 people followed in Israel show natural immunity is more protective than vaccines against the delta variant.  Previously infected study subjects were ill prior to 28 Feb 2021 -- months before delta infections were common.
> 
> Here's a good explaination of the findings in laymen's terms.    Link to thread with more information about the Israeli data. Here's the link to the study:  full text pdf
> 
> ...


Thank you Annie. That is certainly a better link than your original one. I will give it due consideration.


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## Warrigal (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above.  In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.
> 
> 
> Once again, as I stated in post #27:
> ...


I think that maybe the problem is one of logistics. As I indicated in my earlier post, I can easily get proof of my vaccination status. It will cost me nothing but how does a person who has had Covid prove the level of their antibodies? Do they submit proof of a previous Covid infection or an antibody test with the date, or is their word good enough for the man on the door or at the airline desk? My health record shows my two vaccination dates and the particular vaccine given. It is very clear cut.


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> If you'll read the September Israeli study linked above that validates Nick Karl's direct words, you'll see that much has been learned from the info you posted from May. The pdf for the Israeli data showing the superiority of natural immunity out of a pool of 16,000 people is linked above.  In the crises of a fast moving pandemic, information is quickly expanded upon or superseded.
> 
> 
> Once again, as I stated in post #27:
> ...


I am a little oonfused. which link?  what you are not getting Annie, is the video you are seeing is missing most of what is said, because Veritas edited out most of it. See below for a more valid study done in Israel.


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## Shero (Oct 9, 2021)

For Annie:

A new Israeli study has found the risk of heart inflammation as a result of Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine to be *exceedingly low and eminently treatable.*

A link has been seen in recent months between coronavirus vaccines using mRNA technology and very rare cases of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining around the heart).

Research conducted by Israel’s largest healthcare provider, Clalit, along with Beilinson Medical Center, published Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine, examined data on 2.5 million vaccinated Israelis, 94 percent of whom had received two doses of the vaccine.

You can read the rest by following this link:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/major...art-inflammation-after-covid-shots-is-minute/


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I think that maybe the problem is one of logistics. As I indicated in my earlier post, I can easily get proof of my vaccination status. It will cost me nothing but how does a person who has had Covid prove the level of their antibodies? Do they submit proof of a previous Covid infection or an antibody test with the date, or is their word good enough for the man on the door or at the airline desk? My health record shows my two vaccination dates and the particular vaccine given. It is very clear cut.



It would certainly involve more work for the person who chooses to go that route.  Antibody tests with a date would be optimal.  There are a subset of people who don't develop antibodies to infection or vaccines.  People with prior asymptomatic or very mild infection might not have adequate levels as well.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

Shero said:


> I am a little oonfused. which link?  what you are not getting Annie, is the video you are seeing is missing most of what is said, because Veritas edited out most of it. See below for a more valid study done in Israel.



If you've been following the thread, you would've seen the link.  It wasn't in answer to you, but my responses aren't all about you.   You would also know the thread isn't about myocarditis as you posted in #38 ...that one came out of left field lol.

The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity is as good as--if not superior to--vaccine induced immunity.  We have a biochemist who works with antibody testing stating it, and September 2021 data from 16,000  subjects corroborating his statements.

Knowing that, the real world logical progression is that previously infected individuals with lab results indicating adequate antibodies can forgo the vaccine if they wish and present their antibody results anywhere vaccine proof is required.

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## John cycling (Oct 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does."



Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the poisonous clot shots <-- should *not be required* to have a lab test nor any other type of draconian restrictions or mandates.


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## AnnieA (Oct 9, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the *poisonous clot shots <--* should *not be required* to have a lab test nor any other draconian restrictions or mandates.



Your leadoff is bizarre...  I'm not interested in fantastical superpowers, but in science. If a business requires proof of immunity, then people should be able to show it by antibody test levels or vaccination cards.
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## Brookswood (Oct 10, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> My point in a lot of threads on SF is that unvaccinated, previously infected people who have a lab test showing adequate antibodies should be able go and work anywhere a person with a vaccine card does.
> 
> 
> .


That's a valid point.


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## Brookswood (Oct 10, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Healthy people like me who are naturally immune to all viruses and who haven't been injected with the poisonous clot shots <-- should *not be required* to have a lab test nor any other type of draconian restrictions or mandates.


Here's a quote from the _poisonous clot shot_ reference above:



> After the GENOCIDE: Will there be enough VACCINE SURVIVORS to rebuild civilization?





> Hospitals are now being labeled the "killing fields" of the pandemic, with hospital doctors, nurses and administrators openly conspiring to mass murder those who are unvaccinated while covering up the deaths of those who took the jab:





> Furthermore, it looks to me like *the total extermination of human civilization is the goal of the globalists*. They are preparing Earth for a post-human future. There is no plan for human beings to exist in any sustainable form whatsoever. This is why they don't care if they're risking the credibility of "science" or "medicine" or even government itself. If their own plans are successful, there won't be anyone left alive to matter.



I know a lot of people who work in those hospitals at a variety of jobs, and not a one is involved in an conspiracy to mass murder anybody, nor do they see any evidence that such a conspiracy is in play.   IMO, the article is pure ignorant nonsense at best, and a intentional attempt to deceive people at the worst.   Read the article yourself and make up your own mind.


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## Shero (Oct 10, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Then Nick Karl--the biochemist who works (possibly past tense now) at Pfizer’s Pearl River R&D facility-- has exceptional understanding of immunity and antibodies since he is/was developing testing for them for a major pharmaceutical company.  Hope the fact that his LinkedIn profile is down doesn't mean Pfizer fired him for the conversation in the video, but I imagine he violated a non-disclosure agreement.



Nick Karl violated nothing. He said nothing of any significance!!!


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## Shero (Oct 10, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> If you've been following the thread, you would've seen the link.  It wasn't in answer to you, but my responses aren't all about you.   You would also know the thread isn't about myocarditis as you posted in #38 ...that one came out of left field lol.
> 
> The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity is as good as--if not superior to--vaccine induced immunity.  We have a biochemist who works with antibody testing stating it, and September 2021 data from 16,000  subjects corroborating his statements.
> 
> ...


You are right, I do not fully read the anti-vaxxer threads because they are almost always the same ad give me a mal de tête!

you say “ natural immunity as good as--if not superior to having the vaccine” beurk!   So, you would prefer people to enter death’s door to find that out??? Because that is what they have to do. That is complete madness !

You say you like science, then how do you not know and accept that anti bodies change over tme ? How?


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2021)

Shero said:


> You are right, I do not fully read the anti-vaxxer threads because they are almost always the same ad give me a mal de tête!
> 
> you say “ natural immunity as good as--if not superior to having the vaccine” beurk!   So, you would prefer people to enter death’s door to find that out??? Because that is what they have to do. That is complete madness !
> 
> You say you like science, then how do you not know and accept that anti bodies change over tme ? How?



The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity's equivalence and possible superiority to vaccine acquired immunity ...not anti-vaxx. The Nick Karl video was a lead-in to that.  If you had kept up with the thread, you would know that it isn't anti-vaxx and see that I have never advocated anyone go out and catch the virus for natural immunity.     Arguing without reading is ignorant but by all means continue in that vein if you enjoy looking a fool.   We have a saying down here about people who listen with their mouths instead of their ears.... that's a good descriptor for people who post in threads without reading them.

Again.  The point is that people who have _previously_ been infected and have current lab tests showing adequate antibody titers should be able to go or work anywhere that requires a vaccine record. I'm willing to keep typing that until you get it ...not that I have much hope for you...  And measuring antibody titers encompasses antibody changes over time.


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## Shero (Oct 10, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> The ultimate point of the thread is that natural immunity's equivalence and possible superiority to vaccine acquired immunity ...not anti-vaxx. The Nick Karl video was a lead-in to that.  If you had kept up with the thread, you would know that it isn't anti-vaxx and see that I have never advocated anyone go out and catch the virus for natural immunity.     Arguing without reading is ignorant but by all means continue in that vein if you enjoy looking a fool.   We have a saying down here about people who listen with their mouths instead of their ears.... that's a good descriptor for people who post in threads without reading them.
> 
> Again.  The point is that people who have _previously_ been infected and have current lab tests showing adequate antibody titers should be able to go or work anywhere that requires a vaccine record. I'm willing to keep typing that until you get it ...not that I have much hope for you...  And measuring antibody titers encompasses antibody changes over time.



Please do not trouble yourself further: you make no sense and are tying yourself in knots. Just because you want something to be, does not mean it will be! Great medical minds are working on this, and yours is not one of them.
La fin!


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## Shero (Oct 10, 2021)

For interested parties: 

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety


*Top 3 questions:*


Can I get an antibody test once I have received a COVID-19 vaccine?
Will I test positive for COVID-19 once I have received the vaccine?
What are some of the COVIDSafe things you need to remember if you plan to travel this year?

https://www.health.gov.au/news/top-...ng-positive-for-covid-19-and-covidsafe-travel

.


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2021)

Shero said:


> For interested parties:
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices...mmunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety
> 
> ...



That has nothing to do with convalescent immunity antibody titers.


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2021)

Shero said:


> Please do not trouble yourself further: you make no sense...



What isn't sensible about lab verified antibodies for previously infected individuals confirming their adequate immunity?


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## Ladybj (Oct 10, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Yes.  I know they're controversial.   I watched the video and cannot at all see how this one was twisted to deceive.   The Pfizer scientists are quite clear and the fact that natural immunity is better than vaccine induced immunity has already been noted by researchers outside the pharmaceutical industry.
> 
> Since we're doing *BOLD* ...
> 
> ...


And this is why if some people get Covid that has not been vaccinated - it is very mild.


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## chic (Oct 11, 2021)




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## Shero (Oct 11, 2021)

chic said:


> View attachment 188617


Oui!  the undertakers get rich!


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## Pepper (Oct 11, 2021)

The ones who are getting richer are the ones already rich.


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## AnnieA (Oct 11, 2021)

chic said:


> View attachment 188617





> @Pepper  The ones who are getting richer are the ones already rich.



If lab tests showing adequate antibody titers for the previously ill are allowed in lieu of vaccine cards, the pharmaceutical companies that make the lab tests will still get $.   They can raise the price to exploitive levels like the EpiPen.


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## Becky1951 (Oct 12, 2021)

They just announced on the radio here that the antibodies test is 85.00 at our Healthcare clinic.


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## AnnieA (Oct 12, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> They just announced on the radio here that the antibodies test is 85.00 at our Healthcare clinic.


Wow.  That's the highest I've heard. The test is $50 here ...think $50 is what the feds pay for a vaccine dose.   Big Pharma will bump up the price so that they'll make money if it becomes a valid choice for those previously infected that have adequate convalescent antibodies.


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## oldman (Oct 13, 2021)

Sorry, I didn't read all of the posts, so this may be redundant. I think I read that the Israel testing of the vaccines showed that natural immunity through having the Virus gave that person 43% more antibodies than the vaccines.


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## palides2021 (Oct 17, 2021)

I am hoping that the COVID-19 will mutate out of existence. That's what happened years ago to the SARS virus!

Also, has anyone thought about the process of vaccinating people? I mean these vials of vaccines have to be handled a certain way, and the  vaccine needs to be diluted with saline solution, and the temperature has to be room temperature, and can only sit outside for so many hours. I think one vial of vaccine can be diluted/used for 10 people. Are the techs or people who are injecting these vaccines doing it properly? I worked in a biology lab for many years, and I had to train people to use the lab equipment, etc. I saw a lot of mistakes happening. Just recently, I learned in the news about a CVS tech injecting a whole vial of the vaccine into a  young girl's arm. I don't know what happened, but I cringed when I read it. Who knows what is happening, especially if these people are not properly trained or there is no oversight.
-Trisha


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## Alizerine (Oct 18, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Went searching for follow up on Israel's recent data showing the superiority of natural immunity and found the link below on an Israeli news site.
> 
> Pfizer scientists were filmed by an undercover journalist at a social event and explain to the journalist why natural immunity is better and how they're forbidden to make the info public.
> 
> ...


I trust nothing from Veritas.


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## Pepper (Oct 18, 2021)

Alizerine said:


> I trust nothing from Veritas.


 
ME TOO!!!


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## Alizerine (Oct 18, 2021)

oldman said:


> Sorry, I didn't read all of the posts, so this may be redundant. I think I read that the Israel testing of the vaccines showed that natural immunity through having the Virus gave that person 43% more antibodies than the vaccines.


Natural immunity might be "better" for those who live to see it but must we lose well over 700,000 fellow Americans while waiting?


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## PamfromTx (Oct 18, 2021)

Shero said:


> _Please do not bother to reply to my post AnnieA - nothing you can add is valid.
> ._


 You crack me up, @Shero.  In a good way.


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## ManjaroKDE (Oct 18, 2021)

I don't imagine that the below reference is for me,but if it is please delete this post


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## Becky1951 (Oct 18, 2021)

I don't understand how most all commenters have missed the point of this thread, this is what Annie was referring to and yet people keep thinking she means getting the virus is better.   

*"I've been saying for months that people with test results showing antibodies should have an immunity passport in lieu of a vaccination card."*


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## win231 (Oct 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> I don't understand how most all commenters have missed the point of this thread, this is what Annie was referring to and yet people keep thinking she means getting the virus is better.
> 
> *"I've been saying for months that people with test results showing antibodies should have an immunity passport in lieu of a vaccination card."*


They'll defend that vaccine to the death!


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## AnnieA (Oct 19, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> I don't understand how most all commenters have missed the point of this thread, this is what Annie was referring to and yet people keep thinking she means getting the virus is better.
> 
> *"I've been saying for months that people with test results showing antibodies should have an immunity passport in lieu of a vaccination card."*



I think a good many aren't reading content but and are responding from places that negatively impact reading comprehension such as emotion at a sketchy source rather than the verifiable content within it, bias ...some just aren't reading other posts than the OP and answers to their own posts.  

I'm certainly not advocating someone go out and seek infection in order to get them. Hence the phrase *"previously infected" *that I've used throughout the thread. 

Antibodies = immunity regardless of how they're generated. Very basic medical science.

Those "previously infected" should be able to produce serum antibody titer reports as proof of immunity.


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## Alizerine (Oct 19, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> I don't understand how most all commenters have missed the point of this thread, this is what Annie was referring to and yet people keep thinking she means getting the virus is better.
> 
> *"I've been saying for months that people with test results showing antibodies should have an immunity passport in lieu of a vaccination card."*


A friend who had the monoclonal antibodies was told to wait 90 days and get the vaccine. That was back in the spring. Not sure if anything has changed.


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