# Is Your Doctor Getting Kickbacks from the Pharmaceutical Companies?



## SeaBreeze (Mar 5, 2015)

This site is supposed to tell you whether he is or not...https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/


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## Don M. (Mar 5, 2015)

Propublica.org has been tracking this ripoff for the past few years, and the number of doctors "on the take", and the amount of money...and perks...the drug companies lavish on these doctors is substantial.  

https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

Our health Care Industry is not in the business of curing, or preventing illness....rather it is all about making money.  Needless tests, excessive surgeries, and prescribing expensive drugs is their main objectives.  But, then, with millions of our people abusing their health with bad habits and lifestyles, there is no shortage of prospective customers for these "Quacks".  The endless "Ask Your Doctor" commercials on TV have convinced our BrainDead population into thinking that there is a Magic Pill for every conceivable condition.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 6, 2015)

Funny.... all the docs I know personally have said they are not even allowed to accept any gift over $50 from a drug representative.  Some in large medical groups aren't even allowed that much due to the policy of their company...  I KNOW the docs that work for our hospital aren't allowed to.. because that is a policy of our company also.  It's against Federal Law..

https://www.whistleblowerattorneys.com/medicare-fraud/pharmaceutical-qui-tam




> Federal law prohibits pharmaceutical companies from offering doctors any form of compensation in exchange for prescribing the company’s drugs. In addition to prohibiting outright bribes or rebate programs for a particular drug, federal law also prohibits other forms of direct and indirect payments to doctors for prescribing certain drugs.




I just wanted to add that while I am sure, as with any demographic, there are law breakers out there.  Docs are certainly no exception.. However,  the report makes it seem like ALL.. or a vast majority take kickbacks... THEY DO NOT...  Most obey the law.    

As for the commercials.. Of course the drug companies are trying to sell product.. that's what all Corporations exist for... maximizing profits for shareholders... that's Capitalism..  It's up to the consumer to educate themselves.. and for the Docs to ultimately decide what their patient needs.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 6, 2015)

From what I understand, some doctors are pressured into writing scripts, if they don't push enough drugs in their office, there is a problem.  The TV ads are really bad, when I hear the laundry list of side effects, I think the one for bipolar called something like Latuda, has effects much worse than the depression it's supposed to treat.  I use those commercials to know what to definitely refuse from my doctor if he ever tries to shove that drug at me.  Luckily I rarely see a doctor, and don't take any meds, but if I had to, I'd be doing my homework on what kind of garbage they want me to put in my body, that's for sure!


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## QuickSilver (Mar 6, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> From what I understand, some doctors are pressured into writing scripts, if they don't push enough drugs in their office, there is a problem.  The TV ads are really bad, when I hear the laundry list of side effects, I think the one for bipolar called something like Latuda, has effects much worse than the depression it's supposed to treat.  I use those commercials to know what to definitely refuse from my doctor if he ever tries to shove that drug at me.  Luckily I rarely see a doctor, and don't take any meds, but if I had to, I'd be doing my homework on what kind of garbage they want me to put in my body, that's for sure!



A problem?  With who?  They aren't obligated by the drug companies to write scripts. Why would they be? Especially since they are not allowed to take money.. 

 NOW I know there is a problem with patients DEMANDING prescriptions.. particularly antibiotics.. erroneously believing they need them when they get a cold.  

But I've never had a doctor push any drug on me..  He has suggested a medication, but never forced any on me..  I decide what I want to take and he respects my decision.


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## Don M. (Mar 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Funny.... all the docs I know personally have said they are not even allowed to accept any gift over $50 from a drug representative.  Some in large medical groups aren't even allowed that much due to the policy of their company...  I KNOW the docs that work for our hospital aren't allowed to.. because that is a policy of our company also.  It's against Federal Law..
> 
> https://www.whistleblowerattorneys.com/medicare-fraud/pharmaceutical-qui-tam
> 
> ...



Yup, there are probably any number of "regulations" controlling prescriptions...but, like anything else, the "cheats" quickly figure out ways around them.  If you reference the Propublica site I referenced, they have found 4 billion dollars in kickbacks to various doctors....$135 million in Illinois alone...not exactly "chump change".  That same site allows you to key in a doctor or hospital name, and state, and see what they have received. 

I have a Nephew in Colorado who is a doctor, and he said a substantial amount of time in school is devoted to memorizing symptoms, and related drugs, to make it quicker and easier to run the patients through quickly and get on to the next one.  I went to a doctor a couple of years ago for some hip pain, and she said it was arthritis, and prescribed some Oxycodone.  She was married to her laptop, and just spent a few minutes on the keyboard to make her "diagnosis".  I went to a different doctor for a second opinion, and he took his time and determined it was Sciatica...due to a couple of dislocated vertebrae...and he recommended I try a chiropractor to get the bones aligned, then come back for a Cortisone shot.  Getting the bones back in alignment, getting the shot, and following some exercises the 2nd doctor recommended, seems to have pretty well fixed me up.  The first doctor I went to showed a fair amount of interaction with the drug companies on Propublica.  Needless to say, I never went back to that 1st Quack.  If I ever need to change doctors, you can be sure that I will be checking their name at Propublica.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 6, 2015)

Docs have a lot to lose by breaking the law..  For one thing their licenses.. and way of making a living.  Of course there will be cheats.. but that is true in any walk of life.  My contention is that it's not all that wide spread amongst doctors as some would have us believe.   How does this site KNOW what the $$ amounts are.  I wouldn't think if a doctor was on the take he would be very forthcoming to having it publicized... would he?

I took a peek at the Propublica site... It appears that most of the so called "kickbacks" were not monetary, but were for meals and travel, or speaking.. And they were for very small amounts..  So no one getting hundreds of thousands of dollars for prescribing a certain med.


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## Don M. (Mar 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Docs have a lot to lose by breaking the law..  For one thing their licenses.. and way of making a living.  Of course there will be cheats.. but that is true in any walk of life.  My contention is that it's not all that wide spread amongst doctors as some would have us believe.   How does this site KNOW what the $$ amounts are.  I wouldn't think if a doctor was on the take he would be very forthcoming to having it publicized... would he?
> 
> I took a peek at the Propublica site... It appears that most of the so called "kickbacks" were not monetary, but were for meals and travel, or speaking.. And they were for very small amounts..  So no one getting hundreds of thousands of dollars for prescribing a certain med.



That's right...there doesn't appear to be a great deal of "cash flow" to these doctors and hospitals.  But, the Health Care Industry is treating many of the doctors the same way the Lobbyists treat our politicians...they lavish all sorts of perks and privileges on these doctors, WITH the "inferred" understanding that the doctors will give their Drugs a preferential treatment when dealing with the patient.  Given the billions of dollars that flow through these drug companies, they are creating a base of "salesmen" among our doctors to insure their continuing and growing profits.  It takes more than a "peek" on Propublica to get the big picture.  This site has been gathering data for 3 or 4 years, and it can take hours to pour through all their various reports.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 6, 2015)

Don M. said:


> That's right...there doesn't appear to be a great deal of "cash flow" to these doctors and hospitals.  But, the Health Care Industry is treating many of the doctors the same way the Lobbyists treat our politicians...they lavish all sorts of perks and privileges on these doctors, WITH the "inferred" understanding that the doctors will give their Drugs a preferential treatment when dealing with the patient.  Given the billions of dollars that flow through these drug companies, they are creating a base of "salesmen" among our doctors to insure their continuing and growing profits.



I agree, that's the way I'm seeing it too from everything I've heard or read.  
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalearcher/2013/12/26/the-dark-side-of-big-pharma-2/


"As a doctor who, in the past, has been on the receiving end of an occasional perk, let me go on the record by saying, “It’s time!” Most of us in the medical profession have long felt a bit squeamish about the way drug companies have been doing business.

Back when I was practicing psychiatry full time, not a day went by when I didn’t see someone, usually a charismatic, attractive person, stopping by with a briefcase full of their latest products and gifts. The sales reps were constantly in our offices, giving out free samples, setting up promotional material in our waiting rooms, and “building relationships.”

While some among us have benefited from the dinners and paid conferences, we always knew that, on some level, it was wrong, even when we told ourselves that the freebies would in no way influence our judgment as doctors or dictate what we prescribed. 

We all took an oath to protect our patients and put their needs first. But the line between what’s best for the patient, and what’s new, shiny and expensively promoted, has blurred."





QuickSilver said:


> A problem?  With who?  They aren't obligated by the drug companies to write scripts. Why would they be? Especially since they are not allowed to take money..



If their patients aren't happy receiving enough prescriptions drugs from doctors, they review them poorly on the patient surveys.  These surveys can effect the doctor's career.


"Such patient satisfaction data are playing an increasing role in a number of important healthcare decisions.

 For one thing, physicians can be hired, fired, promoted, and compensated based in part on their patient satisfaction scores. Increasingly, these scores also determine how hospitals are ranked and paid. The Center of Medicare and Medicaid Services has been publishing this data and has begun distributing funds to hospitals based in part on patient satisfaction.

Such patient satisfaction data are playing an increasing role in a number of important healthcare decisions. For one thing, physicians can be hired, fired, promoted, and compensated based in part on their patient satisfaction scores. 

Increasingly, these scores also determine how hospitals are ranked and paid. The Center of Medicare and Medicaid Services has been publishing this data and has begun distributing funds to hospitals based in part on patient satisfaction.

From one perspective, the effort to take patient satisfaction into account in allocating healthcare dollars is a welcome change. For many years, private and public health payers compensated physicians and hospitals based almost solely on the quantity of care they provided, essentially ignoring quality.

 The more patients they cared for and the more they did for each patient, the more revenue they generated. Now quality, defined in part by patient satisfaction, is playing a greater role."

...http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...se-they-refuse-to-prescribe-narcotics/280995/


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## QuickSilver (Mar 6, 2015)

So is that a Doctor problem... or a patient problem?


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 6, 2015)

If it affects the doctor's being hired for new positions, being promoted or their wages, then it's the doctor's problem.  The patient can always go to the next doctor who is hot to write scripts and get good patient reviews, plenty of those around.


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## d0ug (Mar 7, 2015)

I was on a drive trip to Bonair and on that trip there where many doctors so between dives I asked them how did all of you get this time off. They told me it was a pay holiday by the drug company to introduce a new drug and give a seminar. How long was the seminar well it is half an hour per day. The rest of the day was skin diving and laying in the sun. They where there for a week.


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## Shirley (Mar 7, 2015)

My primary care doctor is a balding, overweight man. All the drug reps I see in his office are beautiful young women in short dresses and high heels. I have never once seen a male drug rep. Do they influence what drug he prescribes? You guess.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 7, 2015)

Well.... we want Capitalism.. right?   This is Capitalism..   I think if we adopted a National Health System  some of this might end..Single payor.. for everything including medications.. Drug companies selling ONLY to the Government..who will exert strong control and regulations..   Too Socialist??  Well then I guess we put up with what we have.


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## tnthomas (Mar 7, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> This site is supposed to tell you whether he is or not...https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/



Thanks for this SB, it's amazing that such information is actually in a database.   My primary care physician did take a one time payment of $95 a couple years ago.
...my silence can be bought, maybe a prescription for some decent pain relief.


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## Shirley (Mar 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Well.... we want Capitalism.. right?   This is Capitalism..   I think if we adopted a National Health System  some of this might end..Single payor.. for everything including medications.. Drug companies selling ONLY to the Government..who will exert strong control and regulations..   Too Socialist??  Well then I guess we put up with what we have.



QuickSilver, why do you persist in turning every single post into a political post?


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 7, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> My primary care physician did take a one time payment of $95 a couple years ago.
> ...my silence can be bought, maybe a prescription for some decent pain relief.



You may have to go to a medical marijuana doctor Thomas, from what I hear the cannabis oil works wonders for pain.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 7, 2015)

More important than the doctors who benefit from the favors and perks, is the fact that physicians in America over-prescribe prescription drugs to their patients.  They're quick to pick up their script pads and prescribe a drug that they know little about, only what the drug rep has quickly told them.  They don't seem to be concerned anymore about helping someone overcome their illness without all the drugs.  The ethical doctors must not feel very comfortable in their professions, especially those who work for large health organizations.  The amount of Americans on prescription drugs is insane, some are necessary of course, but too many harm rather than cure.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 7, 2015)

Shirley said:


> QuickSilver, why do you persist in turning every single post into a political post?



Shirley, do you not believe that pharmaceuticals have a huge lobby in our Congress?  Doesn't that smack of politics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby


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## QuickSilver (Mar 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Shirley, do you not believe that pharmaceuticals have a huge lobby in our Congress?  Doesn't that smack of politics?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby



Absolutely... And with a Single payor system, that is would be able to purchase medications in bulk at bulk rate prices, there would be no need for kickbacks or payoffs... seems logical to me..


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## QuickSilver (Mar 7, 2015)

Shirley said:


> QuickSilver, why do you persist in turning every single post into a political post?




Shirley...  Why not if it could be a solution to this problem?  Seems like it would... Why should that bother you?  geez


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## lovemylittleboy (Mar 7, 2015)

Yes it does indeed SeaBreze! I totally believe in the cannabis oil extract! There was a woman here who had a baby too young for treatment of chemo (that nasty poison for anyone) so she went to a state that she could get the cannabis oil and gave it to her baby and that baby was healed!  And so many other cases have been proven that it works. I wish I could have gotten some for my Levi....I would have tried it on him. If I should ever get that no  good disgusting disease I will not do chemo.........I will try the cannabis oil extract though. It is good for many many diseases and pain. And Shame on the government for with holding a God Given herb that has been developed to help cure us ..... And don't get me started with the pharmaceutical companies. Bad topic for me!


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## Shirley (Mar 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Shirley...  Why not if it could be a solution to this problem?  Seems like it would... Why should that bother you?  geez



 Then perhaps you should ask Seabreeze to move this from the Health forum to the political Forum.  I understood that this a place to discuss issues concerning health and that political discussions would be found in Hot Topics. 

I find that I am much too delicate to discuss politics here.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 7, 2015)

You're right Shirley, I will move it to Hot Topics, I didn't think it would become a political discussion when I posted it, just was thinking of doctors profiting from writing prescriptions.  Thanks!


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## Shirley (Mar 7, 2015)

BTW, Many thanks to those who gave me reputation points for my reply. It's always nice to be agreed with. 
Now I'm done with this discussion.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 7, 2015)

Have a wonderful day Shirley, and thanks for your insightful input.


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## Jackie22 (Mar 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Absolutely... And with a Single payor system, that is would be able to purchase medications in bulk at bulk rate prices, there would be no need for kickbacks or payoffs... seems logical to me..



Exactly, that would be a solution, QS.

BTW, some people talk about being delicate, they don't seem to be too delicate to make digs at others!


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## QuickSilver (Mar 7, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Exactly, that would be a solution, QS.
> 
> BTW, some people talk about being delicate, they don't seem to be too delicate to make digs at others!



:dunno:  What can  I say?


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## AZ Jim (Mar 7, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Exactly, that would be a solution, QS.
> 
> BTW, some people talk about being delicate, they don't seem to be too delicate to make digs at others!



I notice it seems to be those of the republican persuasion who seem the most easily "offended".


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## QuickSilver (Mar 7, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I notice it seems to be those of the republican persuasion who seem the most easily "offended".



Don't understand what was so offensive....  I brought up a possible solution to a problem..  Doctors taking kickbacks from Drug companies probalby DOES belong here rather than in health.. It has nothing to do with "health"  but more to do with a problem in our economic and political system..  Didn't mean to get anyone upset..


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## Butterfly (Mar 9, 2015)

My docs have never pushed prescription drugs on me, and prescribe generics when available.  Maybe I am naive, but I wonder if overprescribing is as widespread as many believe.  

I take particular issue with those who are convinced that doctors prescribe heavy pain meds right and left and who want to make it harder for people with real pain to get the pain relief they need.  Most of those who scream about overprescribing pain medications have never been in REAL pain in their lives.


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## lovemylittleboy (Mar 10, 2015)

Oh yeah the prescriptions are way over priced, even some generics!!! I always have to get Generic cause that is all insurance will pay for and before they pay anything , we have to have the deductibles paid first and let me tell you , I stopped some meds because I had to pay over 300 bucks for 1!!! Yes generic! And my cholesterol one was 250................ so....................it isn't bad after deductibles are paid and they start paying , but it is getting that point!  
My sister fell and broke her pelvis a few weeks ago and the Dr would not give her any pain meds at all, he said he don't like to prescribe them well excuse me !!! But lets see him walk around with a broken pelvis and she has polio on top of that! He was a young arrogant goof in the ER.................She had to wait to get into her own DR....he was away.  
What made this all bad was the stupid kids out there over dosing on everything and trying to mix and match their own concoction to get a high. Well ya know what they are gonna get them anyway you look at it,,,,,,so why indeed do those who really need the pain meds have to suffer? Because the Drs don't want to get in trouble for prescribing pills....and the insurance companies do give them a hard time about it which sickens me.


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## lovemylittleboy (Mar 10, 2015)

People have to learn how to take their meds right as well so they don't become addicted.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 10, 2015)

I don't think they catch as often as you or they should. A recent example. Shrink gets 600K to push psychiatric drugs

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/02/us/psychiatric-drug-overuse-is-cited-by-federal-study.html?_r=0

If they did it once they did it multiple times. Probably because it works. With your health and somebody's commission/quota hanging in the balance.


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## lovemylittleboy (Mar 10, 2015)

Bottom line is "it is all about the money" and greed. t is the "shrinks" that should be monitored more heavily. Most people don't truly that mind altering garbage. Some people do , and those that do are being or should be monitored by a family member or the family dr


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