# Who Won't Opt For The Vaccine



## fmdog44

I saw today 36% of America's healthcare workers will not take the vaccine and about 42% of the Americans will not take it either. I'm curious about the healthcare workers if they can be fired for not taking it if it is approved. The British are of the same opinion. I had a video of the British but it is "No longer available"


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## Jules

It won’t be me declining it.  Perhaps I’ll wait until there’s more data.  At this point, I’m ready to head to the front of the line.


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## Warrigal

Sometimes we just have to trust people to act in our best interests. When my GP says I can have the vaccine, I will say 'thank you' and follow his lead.


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## Aunt Marg

Myself, as well as my husband will not be partaking in any Covid-19 vaccines of any kind.


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## C'est Moi

Aunt Marg said:


> Myself, as well as my husband will not be partaking in any Covid-19 vaccines of any kind.


Ditto.


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## Aunt Bea

I'll take it when it's available through my PCP or local pharmacy.

I don't really feel comfortable going through some sort of mass inoculation involving lines of people being treated by a bunch of tired bored worn-out people that are just trying to get through the day.


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## bingo

oh.....we'll just wait  til most of the country gets it...then things will calm down


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## Mr. Ed

My wife and do not plan to take the vaccine because of potential side affects the government is unwilling to disclose. We don’t participate in any prevention vaccines either, flu, shingles etc


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## ClassicRockr

Well, since, every year, we get the Senior Double Dose, and feel extremely good about getting it, will get the "19" vaccine when it comes out. We just don't, and won't, take any chances! 

I had a bad flu bug once, along with a spot of pneumonia on one lung. Coughed my ever-loving butt off and told my wife "I feel like I'm going to die". I didn't get the Senior Flu Shot that year. Never again will I go without it. As my VA doctor told me, "even with getting the Senior shot, you can still get the flu, but it won't be nearly as bad as it would be without having the shot." 

As far as side affects go, there can be side affects from any kind of OTC med or prescription med..........any kind. But, someway/somehow, America has to get this virus under control, OR do we want next Spring/Summer to be the exact same way this years was???? Do we want to be walking around the rest of our lives wearing masks? I surely hope not!


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## Lewkat

Since I had COVID-19, I certainly will not take it.  I also prefer a longer testing and perfecting period for a new vaccine.  This has been a slap dash one from the outset.


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## Sunny

I feel the same about it as Warrigal.  When my physician recommends it, I will enthusiastically take it. What is there to worry so much about? A few side effects?  I'm willing to take that much of a risk in order to get my life back.

Of course, if it looks iffy, not well tested, potentially dangerous, etc., no one will take it. Before it's distributed to the public, it will have to be pretty thoroughly tested.


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## Treacle

ttps://www.itv.com/news/2020-11-10/covid-vaccine-will-enough-of-the-population-get-immunised-to-get-rid-of-coronavirus


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## CarolfromTX

I’ll take it, in a heartbeat.


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## StarSong

Sunny said:


> I feel the same about it as Warrigal.  When my physician recommends it, I will enthusiastically take it. What is there to worry so much about? A few side effects?  I'm willing to take that much of a risk in order to get my life back.
> 
> Of course, if it looks iffy, not well tested, potentially dangerous, etc., no one will take it. Before it's distributed to the public, it will have to be pretty thoroughly tested.


I feel the same as @Sunny and @Warrigal.  

As the evidence mounts I'm moving from skepticism to relief.  During the data scrutiny, scientists will likely determine which vaccine is safest and most effective for various groups of people, i.e, children, seniors, seniors with assorted underlying health conditions, obese people, etc.


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## needshave

Aunt Marg said:


> Myself, as well as my husband will not be partaking in any Covid-19 vaccines of any kind.


My wife and I will not partake in a vaccine until there is plenty of testing and results. I just read on a running banner at the bottom of the TV, that health professionals are advising there may be unpleasant side effects. I don't know what they are or might be, but I have enough thumbs, thank you very much.


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## win231

"Vaccine development is a long, slow process, often lasting 10-15 years."
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/i...es/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation


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## Pinky

needshave said:


> My wife and I will not partake in a vaccine until there is plenty of testing and results. I just read on a running banner at the bottom of the TV, that health professionals are advising there may be unpleasant side effects. I don't know what they are or might be, but I have enough thumbs, thank you very much.


Headache and muscle soreness were 2 side effects. Apparently, some people have those side effects with the regular flu vaccine. I've only ever had muscle soreness at the site of the injection for 2-3 days.


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## Shalimar

When the time comes, I will be there with bells on.


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## StarSong

I had a very unpleasant reaction from the first of the two shot shingles vaccine.  It brought me to my knees for nearly a week, including two ER visits.  Nevertheless I returned for the second shot.  (Fortunately it produced a much lesser reaction).  I opted in favor of the second shot because the risk of few days of a bad reaction was still preferable to the actual shingles.  I'd seen close family and friends suffer with shingles and definitely DID NOT want to experience it first hand.

There is still much data to be crunched on the Covid vaccines.  Until the scientists with _decades of related schooling and related experience _at the CDC, FDA, and other watchdog groups make their determinations, I will consider the jury to still be out. Because it will be.

When those findings come in I will weigh them along with English & German data reviews, plus the independent reviews promised by California & New York, as well as my doctor's recommendations.

As always, I will determinedly ignore the wackadoodles on YouTube who are looking for a moment in the sun.


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## Aunt Marg

win231 said:


> "Vaccine development is a long, slow process, often lasting 10-15 years."
> https://www.historyofvaccines.org/i...es/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation


More realistic IMO.

There was the Baby Boomer Generation, then came the Gen X Generation, then Came Gen Y, then Gen Z, and now we'll be able to add Gen GP to it... (the Guinea Pig Generation).


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## Ronni

I’m undecided because there’s not yet enough information to satisfy me.


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## Furryanimal

I will not be at the front of the queue.I want to be certain it is safe.I had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a kid which left me unable to walk for several days.I can’t remember what it was for but I’m concerned.I’ve never had a flu jab because of that.


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## Aunt Marg

Furryanimal said:


> I will not be at the front of the queue.I want to be certain it is safe.I had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a kid which left me unable to walk for several days.I can’t remember what it was for but I’m concerned.I’ve never had a flu jab because of that.


Smart thinking, Furry.


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## Treacle

What if people are taking other prescription drugs e.g blood pressure tablets. Would the vaccines interfere with those tablets? I was under the impression that the trials were carried out on 'healthy' individuals. Just a thought


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## Aunt Marg

Treacle said:


> What if people are taking other prescription drugs e.g blood pressure tablets. Would the vaccines interfere with those tablets? I was under the impression that the trials were carried out on 'healthy' individuals. Just a thought


Excellent point.

My guess is, testing of subjects with an array of different medications in them was not included in the study.

My way of thinking is, and from the standpoint of scientists behind the drug, _let's get this thing developed and out NOW, and we'll worry about the small stuff (side-effects) later._


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## Pepper

I'm not going to rush to take it until I see how the masses who do are reacting.  Need some data first on general public.


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## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> I feel the same about it as Warrigal.  When my physician recommends it, I will enthusiastically take it. What is there to worry so much about? A few side effects?  I'm willing to take that much of a risk in order to get my life back.
> 
> Of course, if it looks iffy, not well tested, potentially dangerous, etc., no one will take it. Before it's distributed to the public, it will have to be pretty thoroughly tested.


Side effects are one thing, few and mild is ok. Its the long term effects that are not known and won't be until those who are vaccinated prove there are or are not any effects from the vaccine. 1 plus years from now people may have health problems due to the actual vaccine. We don't know as it has not been tested long enough.


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## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> Side effects are one thing, few and mild is ok. Its the long term effects that are not known and won't be until those who are vaccinated prove there are or are not any effects from the vaccine. 1 plus years from now people may have health problems due to the actual vaccine. We don't know as it has not been tested long enough.


Your points are well taken.


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## Sunny

That's a good point, about interactions with other drugs. There are so many other drugs that most people take, most older people anyway, and I wonder how many of them can be factored in that quickly.


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## Granny B.

Regarding side effects, here's an article I just read today:
Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won’t be ‘a walk in the park’

Here are a couple of key points:
-  "...vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache."

-  "Dr. Sandra Fryhofer said that both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s Covid-19 vaccines require two doses and she worries whether her patients will come back for a second dose because of potentially unpleasant side effects after the first shot."

-  “The first dose is no big deal. And then the second dose will definitely put you down for the day for sure. ... You will need to take a day off after the second dose.”


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## Mr. Ed

I believe they will sanction people refusing the vaccine from all social gatherings, grocery stores, pharmacies, churches, etc. I believe receiving the vaccine will implement greater control by the powers that be. Whether you get vaccine or not it will be vital in the outcome of freedom


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## Granny B.

I'm in a "wait and see" mode.  I'll see how it's going after they give it to the first responders, etc.  

I'm pretty sure I got Covid last winter when _something_ went through the school where I work.  It wasn't just a bad case of the flu or sniffles.  Some classes had half the students out at a time and the students were out for about a week.  I was out for that long and some symptoms lasted much longer, weeks even.  The three of us in my household got it and one even ended up in the hospital.  That was long before it was acknowledged or even talked about seriously and no testing.  I'm hoping I still have a little immunity left.


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## Nathan

I'm feeling a bit ill today, we were exposed to the Covid from two friends visiting our house recently.   
...when Kaiser Permanente offers the vaccine I'll get one anyway.


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## StarSong

Nathan, please get a test.  NOW.  This is nothing to mess around with.


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## MickaC

COVID 19 VACCINES
Lists are being made in Canada.
#1   All who are in the Health positions.......which is the most important and should be.
After those the list will continue.
I have no strong issues with the totem pole from there.
But.....
I am somewhat unhappy about a certain type of population that is being placed very high on this pole.......being......IMO.

As quite often through my years......have found myself " between a rock and a hard place "
Because being under 65......have no underlying health issues, unless depression falls in to that place......which i doubt......and pretty much in good health......other than depression, osteoporosis, osteoarthritis.
I very seldom get sick with anything.

I bailed on the flu shot.....have never had one.....i'll just continue with that for now......i thought maybe maybe the flu clinic was a good place to pick up a bug.

Maybe not being some of the ones in the beginning for the vaccine.......i can take in all the......." what's......if's......but's and, and's. "

I WISH the whole WORLD, GOOD LUCK, in what's to come.


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## Nathan

StarSong said:


> Nathan, please get a test.  NOW.  This is nothing to mess around with.


I tried to yesterday, nowhere available here in the High Desert.  If I start to have worse symptoms I'll go straight to the nearest ER.


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## Ruthanne

I am going to do some research on each of the three vaccines that are coming out to see the potential side effects but from what I've already heard they seem to be similar to the side effects you get from the flu shot which I got and once had some mild side effects for a day.  I will most likely get the vaccine because I don't want to be worried about getting the virus for 10 years.


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## OneEyedDiva

As of now, it's my intention not to take it but maybe that will change. I know I won't be rushing out to get it. My doctor said he wouldn't consider getting a rushed vaccine even though his brother was dreadfully sick with COVID back in the summer. I saw on the news that many people don't trust because they feel vaccine production is being politicized.

Qantas airline CEO is considering not allowing anyone who hasn't been vaccinated to fly internationally.
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michae...-19-vaccine-fly-internationally-its-necessity


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## win231

OneEyedDiva said:


> As of now, it's my intention not to take it but maybe that will change. I know I won't be rushing out to get it. My doctor said he wouldn't consider getting a rushed vaccine even though his brother was dreadfully sick with COVID back in the summer. I saw on the news that many people don't trust because they feel vaccine production is being politicized.
> 
> Qantas airline CEO is considering not allowing anyone who hasn't been vaccinated to fly internationally.
> https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michae...-19-vaccine-fly-internationally-its-necessity


When a _doctor_ says he wouldn't consider a vaccine, that's what is known as a "Hint."  A really big hint.


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## Giantsfan1954

Not me... I never thought of the contras with other meds.


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## old medic

Lewkat said:


> Since I had COVID-19, I certainly will not take it.  I also prefer a longer testing and perfecting period for a new vaccine.  This has been a slap dash one from the outset.


YUP....


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## Lakeland living

I am on several drugs, heart stuff, blood pressure. NO not going to take that shot or shots. I see a game of roulette going on , the odds stacked against me. Going from 5 years plus to just over a year and still saying they are learning about it???  Duh.....


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## fmdog44

J & J talcum powder used for how long before the cancer accusations? Also, the weed killer accused as ell. I can't recall the brand.


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## Aunt Marg

fmdog44 said:


> J & J talcum powder used for how long before the cancer accusations? Also, the weed killer accused as ell. I can't recall the brand.


Yes, excellent point, FM.


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## Butterfly

Mr. Ed said:


> I believe they will sanction people refusing the vaccine from all social gatherings, grocery stores, pharmacies, churches, etc. I believe receiving the vaccine will implement greater control by the powers that be. Whether you get vaccine or not it will be vital in the outcome of freedom



I doubt "they" will be able to do all that sanctioning practically or legally (social gatherings? churches, pharmacies?  How's that gonna work?)  What "they" can and doubtlessly will do is require the vaccines for certain kinds of jobs, enrolling kids in school, international travel, etc. Other vaccines are already required for those things anyway, so covid will probably just be added to the list.


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## JimBob1952

Aunt Marg said:


> Myself, as well as my husband will not be partaking in any Covid-19 vaccines of any kind.





fmdog44 said:


> J & J talcum powder used for how long before the cancer accusations? Also, the weed killer accused as ell. I can't recall the brand.



The weed killer is Monsanto's Roundup. 

Keep in mind that there is a large industry of tort attorneys who make money by publicizing these claims.  They don't even have to win their cases, just create enough noise to get an out of court settlement.  

Regarding talcum powder, this is from the American Cancer Society:


Many studies in women have looked at the possible link between talcum powder and cancer of the ovary. Findings have been mixed, with some studies reporting a slightly increased risk and some reporting no increase.

Many case-control studies have found a small increase in risk. But these types of studies can be biased because they often rely on a person’s memory of talc use many years earlier.  
Prospective cohort studies, which would not have the same type of potential bias, have generally not found a significant increase in ovarian cancer risk overall. However, some have suggested possible increased risks in certain groups of women (for example, in women who still have an intact reproductive tract) or in certain types of ovarian cancer.
One of the problems with studying this issue is that ovarian cancer isn’t common. Because of this, even the largest studies done so far might not have been big enough to detect a very small increase in risk, if it exists.


https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/talcum-powder-and-cancer.html


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## Mr. Ed

Butterfly said:


> I doubt "they" will be able to do all that sanctioning practically or legally (social gatherings? churches, pharmacies?  How's that gonna work?)  What "they" can and doubtlessly will do is require the vaccines for certain kinds of jobs, enrolling kids in school, international travel, etc. Other vaccines are already required for those things anyway, so covid will probably just be added to the list.


Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.


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## Aunt Marg

JimBob1952 said:


> The weed killer is Monsanto's Roundup.
> 
> Keep in mind that there is a large industry of tort attorneys who make money by publicizing these claims.  They don't even have to win their cases, just create enough noise to get an out of court settlement.
> 
> Regarding talcum powder, this is from the American Cancer Society:
> 
> 
> Many studies in women have looked at the possible link between talcum powder and cancer of the ovary. Findings have been mixed, with some studies reporting a slightly increased risk and some reporting no increase.
> 
> Many case-control studies have found a small increase in risk. But these types of studies can be biased because they often rely on a person’s memory of talc use many years earlier.
> Prospective cohort studies, which would not have the same type of potential bias, have generally not found a significant increase in ovarian cancer risk overall. However, some have suggested possible increased risks in certain groups of women (for example, in women who still have an intact reproductive tract) or in certain types of ovarian cancer.
> One of the problems with studying this issue is that ovarian cancer isn’t common. Because of this, even the largest studies done so far might not have been big enough to detect a very small increase in risk, if it exists.
> 
> 
> https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/talcum-powder-and-cancer.html


Thank you for the great post, Jim.

That's the single biggest problem I see when it comes to findings related to such... too much information out there, and so much of it conflicting and even skewed.


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## JimBob1952

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.



Remember smallpox?  Polio?  No?  That's because vaccines work.  That's why world leaders want people vaccinated.  We can't isolate ourselves out of this problem.


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## StarSong

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.


Why?  So that this virus can be stopped, that's why.  Or do people want to live like this for several more years until herd immunity kicks in or the virus morphs into a less dangerous version.


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## Sunny

OneEyedDiva said:


> As of now, it's my intention not to take it but maybe that will change. I know I won't be rushing out to get it. My doctor said he wouldn't consider getting a rushed vaccine even though his brother was dreadfully sick with COVID back in the summer. I saw on the news that many people don't trust because they feel vaccine production is being politicized.
> 
> Qantas airline CEO is considering not allowing anyone who hasn't been vaccinated to fly internationally.
> https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michae...-19-vaccine-fly-internationally-its-necessity



The trouble is, if vaccine production is being politicized, so is _anti-vaccine_ propaganda. This disease has become politicized to an extent that I have never heard of, with any other disease. And political propaganda is shameless. It will appropriate any subject it thinks it can use to advance its objectives.

For those who are so leery about this vaccine, I wonder:  were you that cautious and fearful about the vaccines for any other disease? If you got a deep puncture wound from a rusty nail, before you got a tetanus shot in the ER, would you consult everybody you know on the subject?

 Last year, my doctor recommended a new type of pneumonia vaccine that is apparently much more effective than the old ones. I got the shot immediately, as I trust his judgement.

This year, it was the new type of shingles vaccine, Shingrix. It requires two shots, a few months apart. Again, I followed his advice.  No side effects from any of those shots.

So, when the time comes that the Covid vaccine is available, if my doctor recommends getting it, should I be dancing around all over the place, studying what all the news media have to say about it, making sure I have an adequate mix of conservative vs. liberal media, consulting with the politicians I am most in tune with, seeing what my friends on social media (like this one) have to say .....

or, just get the damn vaccine, as I would against any other disease that probably has me in its crosshairs?


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## Irwin

I'd prefer to continue to self-isolate, which I have been doing for years! Just more so this year due to the pandemic.


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## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> The trouble is, if vaccine production is being politicized, so is _anti-vaccine_ propaganda. This disease has become politicized to an extent that I have never heard of, with any other disease. And political propaganda is shameless. It will appropriate any subject it thinks it can use to advance its objectives.
> 
> For those who are so leery about this vaccine, I wonder:  were you that cautious and fearful about the vaccines for any other disease? If you got a deep puncture wound from a rusty nail, before you got a tetanus shot in the ER, would you consult everybody you know on the subject?
> 
> Last year, my doctor recommended a new type of pneumonia vaccine that is apparently much more effective than the old ones. I got the shot immediately, as I trust his judgement.
> 
> This year, it was the new type of shingles vaccine, Shingrix. It requires two shots, a few months apart. Again, I followed his advice.  No side effects from any of those shots.
> 
> So, when the time comes that the Covid vaccine is available, if my doctor recommends getting it, should I be dancing around all over the place, studying what all the news media have to say about it, making sure I have an adequate mix of conservative vs. liberal media, consulting with the politicians I am most in tune with, seeing what my friends on social media (like this one) have to say .....
> 
> or, just get the damn vaccine, as I would against any other disease that probably has me in its crosshairs?


There is a big difference in former vaccines and this one 

Those you mentioned took years to develop and study for their safety.

So naturally some of us are concerned.


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## Sunny

I am "concerned" also, Becky, and will not dive into anything that's suicidal.  People who are concerned (and not following politically-led imperatives) still make the bulk of their decisions based on what science, and their trusted medical professionals, tell them.

As my doctor is widely respected, and extremely sensible about the things he suggests, I trust him to make sensible recommendations. If a drug has not been adequately tested, is being hastily manufactured, etc., he will not recommend it.  If the possible side effects will be a danger to me, he will tell me about them. A certain amount of trust does come in.


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## garyt1957

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.


 I doubt it.


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## ClassicRockr

I remember, when asked by my VA doctor (on an online video appointment), "did you get your Senior Double-Dose Flu Shot yet?" I said "yes" and she said "very good".


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## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> I am "concerned" also, Becky, and will not dive into anything that's suicidal.  People who are concerned (and not following politically-led imperatives) still make the bulk of their decisions based on what science, and their trusted medical professionals, tell them.
> 
> As my doctor is widely respected, and extremely sensible about the things he suggests, I trust him to make sensible recommendations. If a drug has not been adequately tested, is being hastily manufactured, etc., he will not recommend it.  If the possible side effects will be a danger to me, he will tell me about them. A certain amount of trust does come in.


My post wasn't intended to imply you were not concerned, it was general in the reasoning for some to be skeptical. 

Each person has to weigh their risks, concerns and go from there.

Do I be first in line? Wait a month? 2 months? 3 or more months? Never get it?

I never try to tell anyone what to do, I just give my opinions and thoughts on subjects. And depending on information that changes daily so do my thoughts LOL.

No one should be basing their decisions on masks, vaccines based on their political party. That's just plain stupidity. Yet here we are due to that stupidity.


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## garyt1957

Since I've had the virus, I'm in no hurry to get the vaccine. Not sure I even need to get it. I'm continually researching to find info on immunity for people who've had it. Still haven't found anything conclusive. Lots of Could be's and should be's regarding immunity but nothing concrete.


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## DaveA

Furryanimal said:


> I will not be at the front of the queue.I want to be certain it is safe.I had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a kid which left me unable to walk for several days.I can’t remember what it was for but I’m concerned.I’ve never had a flu jab because of that.


Interesting. Maybe we had the same shot? 

 I had some sort of shot while in the military - -mid 50's.  Of all the members of the ship's crew, I was the only one left with a bad reaction.  Joints froze up and I had to be carted off to the hospital in an ambulance. 

Can't recall what the shot was for but it took 5 or 6 days before I was released back to the ship.  No after effects and I've had shingles, flu, pneumonia, tetanus shots, etc., throughout the rest of my life without any ill effects.

i'll take the new shots when advised by my doc.


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## win231

Sunny said:


> I am "concerned" also, Becky, and will not dive into anything that's suicidal.  People who are concerned (and not following politically-led imperatives) still make the bulk of their decisions based on what science, and their trusted medical professionals, tell them.
> 
> As my doctor is widely respected, and extremely sensible about the things he suggests, I trust him to make sensible recommendations. If a drug has not been adequately tested, is being hastily manufactured, etc., he will not recommend it.  If the possible side effects will be a danger to me, he will tell me about them. A certain amount of trust does come in.


Good point; you just described the Covid vaccine - which "has not been adequately tested & is hastily manufactured."
If your doctor recommends it anyway, I'd ask him why.


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## Sunny

win231 said:


> Good point; you just described the Covid vaccine - which "has not been adequately tested & is hastily manufactured."
> If your doctor recommends it anyway, I'd ask him why.


And you know this how, Win?  Should I trust your speculations on a public forum, open to every crackpot idea that is being spread, over the advice of a top-notch medical professional who knows and cares about me? And just FYI, when I asked him when he thought a vaccine would be available, he said probably not until next summer. So he's hardly rushing in to push it!

Having said that, I will agree that the testing for this has been quicker than usual, largely because the danger to every person on the planet is greater than what we usually live with.  You say the vaccine has not been adequately tested (and there are at least three different ones in the running), well, how much is "adequately?"  Do you know?  Is "adequately" the same for ordinary drugs against minor, everyday ailments, as it is for a gruesome pandemic which is snuffing out thousands of lives daily? Do you know enough about the testing and manufacture of any of these three vaccines to be making statements about how inferior these practices are? What are your sources?

Yes, there is always a certain crossover between possible risk and probable benefit. Obviously, the higher the risk level, the less likely that the vaccine will be disseminated, or that people will take it.  As much as some on this forum dislike and mistrust the drug industry, I doubt that most of us think that they are actively trying to kill as many people as possible.

And instead of, God forbid, assigning any noble motives to the drug companies, I'll add this:  What about the risk to them from possible lawsuits if they release a drug too soon?  Don't you think they are aware of that?


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## Irwin

This so-called "vaccine" is just an opportunity for the shape-shifting reptilian aliens from space to implant tracking devices in humans so they can control us. Don't comply! Resist now while you can!!! Drink bleach!!! Hide in your bunker!!! AAAAHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhh!!!


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## Giantsfan1954

fmdog44 said:


> J & J talcum powder used for how long before the cancer accusations? Also, the weed killer accused as ell. I can't recall the brand.


Roundup


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## chic

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.


Yeah, I wonder too. After all these months the conspiracy theorists aren't sounding as crazy as they did at first.


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## chic

StarSong said:


> Why?  So that this virus can be stopped, that's why.  Or do people want to live like this for several more years until herd immunity kicks in or the virus morphs into a less dangerous version.


Herd immunity would have kicked in already after nearly a year, but it's compromised by lockdowns and masks etc. because as soon as the case numbers go up, they just lock everything down again. For herd immunity to be effective you have to be out with people daily and exposed so that your immune system can fight it. 

Since 9 months of lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing are clearly not working, not just in the USA but globally, I think the experts need to find another solution to this virus problem.


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## win231

Sunny said:


> And you know this how, Win?  Should I trust your speculations on a public forum, open to every crackpot idea that is being spread, over the advice of a top-notch medical professional who knows and cares about me? And just FYI, when I asked him when he thought a vaccine would be available, he said probably not until next summer. So he's hardly rushing in to push it!
> 
> Having said that, I will agree that the testing for this has been quicker than usual, largely because the danger to every person on the planet is greater than what we usually live with.  You say the vaccine has not been adequately tested (and there are at least three different ones in the running), well, how much is "adequately?"  Do you know?  Is "adequately" the same for ordinary drugs against minor, everyday ailments, as it is for a gruesome pandemic which is snuffing out thousands of lives daily? Do you know enough about the testing and manufacture of any of these three vaccines to be making statements about how inferior these practices are? What are your sources?
> 
> Yes, there is always a certain crossover between possible risk and probable benefit. Obviously, the higher the risk level, the less likely that the vaccine will be disseminated, or that people will take it.  As much as some on this forum dislike and mistrust the drug industry, I doubt that most of us think that they are actively trying to kill as many people as possible.
> 
> And instead of, God forbid, assigning any noble motives to the drug companies, I'll add this:  What about the risk to them from possible lawsuits if they release a drug too soon?  Don't you think they are aware of that?



https://www.historyofvaccines.org/i...es/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

And, no, drug companies are not concerned about the risk of possible lawsuits because their profit is so great, they can easily afford to pay out.
One of the drug companies that caused the Opioid problem - Perdue had no problem paying an 8 billion dollar fine.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/oxycontin-maker-purdue-pharma-guilty-plea-opioid-settlement


----------



## Furryanimal

chic said:


> Herd immunity would have kicked in already after nearly a year, but it's compromised by lockdowns and masks etc. because as soon as the case numbers go up, they just lock everything down again. For herd immunity to be effective you have to be out with people daily and exposed so that your immune system can fight it.
> 
> Since 9 months of lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing are clearly not working, not just in the USA but globally, I think the experts need to find another solution to this virus problem.


My thinking exactly but i have been shot down in flames in other places for saying this,


----------



## Butterfly

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.



Yes, there is, and it's called public health.


----------



## Butterfly

StarSong said:


> Why?  So that this virus can be stopped, that's why.  Or do people want to live like this for several more years until herd immunity kicks in or the virus morphs into a less dangerous version.


And who knows if herd immunity will ever kick in for this virus.  It doesn't work for every disease.  Like polio, smallpox, etc., or things like yellow fever, cholera, etc., until we figured out how to knock them out with better sanitation  and vector control.


----------



## Warrigal

chic said:


> Since 9 months of lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing are clearly not working, not just in the USA but globally, I think the experts need to find another solution to this virus problem.


It does if it is properly applied and adhered to. Except for a few minor clusters related to Australians returning from overseas, every state in Australia is now virtually free of corona virus. Your list - lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing - has omitted isolating at home and quarantining in special hotels and one other very important strategy - contact tracing.

Another factor is time. It takes as long as it takes. In Victoria it took about 3 months to get things under control.

One weakness that this virus has shown up is insecure employment. Victoria was in a bad way because people working as security guards and cleaners in the quarantine hotels were also doing shifts in nursing homes and delivering pizzas. Once they became infected, they spread it around to work contacts and their families. The gig economy and multiple part time casual employment makes control that much harder.


----------



## chic

Warrigal said:


> It does if it is properly applied and adhered to. Except for a few minor clusters related to Australians returning from overseas, every state in Australia is now virtually free of corona virus. Your list - lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing - has omitted isolating at home and quarantining in special hotels and one other very important strategy - contact tracing.
> 
> Another factor is time. It takes as long as it takes. In Victoria it took about 3 months to get things under control.
> 
> One weakness that this virus has shown up is insecure employment. Victoria was in a bad way because people working as security guards and cleaners in the quarantine hotels were also doing shifts in nursing homes and delivering pizzas. Once they became infected, they spread it around to work contacts and their families. The gig economy and multiple part time casual employment makes control that much harder.


I only know what Aussie's tell me about Australia, but I do remember late last spring they were doing well while we were not. And now it's going badly again. And so it will go over and over again.

There is no way to make this work because it could take years, not months of this before there is a safe vaccine and this isn't working in the USA or Europe.

Why can't the experts work on medicine for the interim? Something that will help people recover from covid or at least survive it while freeing the rest of us from bondage until there is a safe, well tested, vaccine that will appeal to a larger segment of the population than is currently interested in vaccines?

To keep doing the same thing over and over again knowing it will not work is simply insane and a waste of time. It's worse because it's also a lie. I'm sure there are medicines that will help safely and effectively. At least they could try.


----------



## Warrigal

It's not going badly. These are the latest statistics



> South Australian health authorities are racing to contain Adelaide’s Parafield coronavirus cluster, which numbers *31 cases*, according to the latest SA Health figures.
> 
> Meanwhile, Victoria has reported *0 new cases* today, marking the *27th day in a row* that the state has recorded no new coronavirus cases or deaths. There are currently *0 active cases state-wide*. Victoria is now in “Last Step” of the state’s roadmap to reopening. The state will move to “COVID Normal” when there are no new cases for 28 days, no active cases state-wide and “no outbreaks of concern in other states or territories”, according to the state’s health officials.
> 
> Elsewhere, NSW reported *no cases today*. It has been *19 days since the state’s last locally-spread infection.*
> Queensland reported *no cases today*.
> *No states have reported any deaths yet today.*
> 
> The data is among the charts below, which provide a guide to how Australia is faring in the fight against the spread of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> See here for charts: ABC coronavirus data charts COVID-19 spread in Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> The latest update was at 10:26 PM AEDT on Thursday, November 26.


----------



## Mr. Ed

Butterfly said:


> Yes, there is, and it's called public health.


I guess we have two different views, and that's ok because with either viewpoint the outcome is the same


----------



## oldman

Sign me up.


----------



## fmdog44

I wonder what the average length of time it takes for vaccines to be OK'd. Anyone know?


----------



## oldman

They have already shipped to hospitals and expect to be approved by the FDA during the second week of December, so says the Pennsylvania Director of HHS. Once approved, the hospitals will begin to inoculate their staff.


----------



## Uptosnuff

How many vaccines can a body get without adverse effects?  

I don't know.  Does anyone know?  I have already had several vaccines from when I was a child with no choice in the matter.

No, I will not be getting the vaccine


----------



## oldman

How many vaccines can a body get without adverse effects?


Uptosnuff said:


> I don't know.  Does anyone know?  I have already had several vaccines from when I was a child with no choice in the matter.
> 
> No, I will not be getting the vaccine


The way it was explained to me is that when you receive a vaccine, you are actually receiving a dose of the disease that you are being inoculated for. It really doesn’t matter how many different vaccines a person receives, they are protected against getting the disease because that person now has immunity. (But, there is always that chance we can still get the disease.) The vaccine also builds on the immunity that is provided by our immune system.

This is how my doctor explained it to me. I asked him the same question. “How many different vaccines can I receive and have them be effective.”


----------



## Sunny

chic said:


> Herd immunity would have kicked in already after nearly a year, but it's compromised by lockdowns and masks etc. because as soon as the case numbers go up, they just lock everything down again. For herd immunity to be effective you have to be out with people daily and exposed so that your immune system can fight it.
> 
> Since 9 months of lockdowns, curfews, mask mandates and social distancing are clearly not working, not just in the USA but globally, I think the experts need to find another solution to this virus problem.


I don't understand your second sentence, chic. It seems to me that if you are out with people daily and exposed, and have not had a vaccine, your immune system will of course try to fight it. But too often. the immune system loses that fight.

I looked up "herd immunity" and found this definition:

_Herd immunity (or community immunity) occurs when a high percentage of the community is immune to a disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness), making the spread of this disease from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and the immunocompromised) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community._

So people counting on herd immunity are counting on most of the others to be vaccinated, or to have already had the disease and therefore not be infectious. It's like the people who won't get their kids vaccinated against measles because most of the other kids have been.

Your last sentence is not true. Masks, lockdowns, and social distancing do work, _when they are adhered to.  _The countries that imposed strict regulations have driven the disease down to nothing, or nearly nothing. The places where people congregate in large numbers, unmasked, are the ones with the highest number of cases and deaths. Seems to me the writing is on the wall.

We're all sick of quarantining and all the rest of it. But until we get the vaccine, that's the only weapon we have.


----------



## ClassicRockr

Sunny said:


> I don't understand your second sentence, chic. It seems to me that if you are out with people daily and exposed, and have not had a vaccine, your immune system will of course try to fight it. But too often. the immune system loses that fight.
> 
> I looked up "herd immunity" and found this definition:
> 
> _Herd immunity (or community immunity) occurs when a high percentage of the community is immune to a disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness), making the spread of this disease from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and the immunocompromised) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community._
> 
> So people counting on herd immunity are counting on most of the others to be vaccinated, or to have already had the disease and therefore not be infectious. It's like the people who won't get their kids vaccinated against measles because most of the other kids have been.
> 
> Your last sentence is not true. Masks, lockdowns, and social distancing do work, _when they are adhered to.  _The countries that imposed strict regulations have driven the disease down to nothing, or nearly nothing. The places where people congregate in large numbers, unmasked, are the ones with the highest number of cases and deaths. Seems to me the writing is on the wall.
> 
> We're all sick of quarantining and all the rest of it. But until we get the vaccine, that's the only weapon we have.



Your sentences (highlighted in red) are all so, so very true. Unfortunately, way, way to many folks don't listen and/or just don't care.


----------



## garyt1957

fmdog44 said:


> I wonder what the average length of time it takes for vaccines to be OK'd. Anyone know?


Usually 5 to 10 years


----------



## Don M.

The thing that worries me is that the medical staff will be among the very first to receive these vaccinations.  We better Hope there aren't a rash of serious side effects....that would severely impact our doctors and nurses in a time when those people are already stretched to their limits.  Then, the next priority is supposed to be Seniors living in care facilities, etc., and those with pre-existing conditions.   It will probably be well into Springtime before the majority of healthy people have access to the vaccines, and by then, we should have a fairly good idea of If there are any risks of being vaccinated.   
No matter of what direction this virus takes in coming months, it will still be a long time before we can safely return to "normalcy".


----------



## StarSong

Herd immunity without a vaccine requires roughly 70% of the population to become infected.  How many of us are willing to take that risk?  

I, for sure, am not.


----------



## AnnieA

When the fast-tracked vaccines are soon rolled out, all we'll know at first is that they are stimulating the production of antibodies and that there are no immediate serious side effects.

Once mass distribution begins, glitches not detected in the abbreviated study time frame are more likely than not to occur. Since I have autoimmune diseases,  I will wait a year or so to see if there are as yet unknown deleterious effects.

My internist has concerns about the fast track process, so thankfully I won't be hounded by his staff to get the vaccine at each office visit.


----------



## StarSong

AnnieA said:


> When the fast-tracked vaccines are soon rolled out, all we'll know at first is that they are stimulating the production of antibodies and that there are no immediate serious side effects.
> 
> Once mass distribution begins, glitches not detected in the abbreviated study time frame are more likely than not to occur. Since I have autoimmune diseases,  I will wait a year or so to see if there are as yet unknown deleterious effects.
> 
> My internist has concerns about the fast track process, so thankfully I won't be hounded by his staff to get the vaccine at each office visit.


Aren't you in the health care industry?  If so, do you think vaccinations will be required of most folks in your business?


----------



## AnnieA

Uptosnuff said:


> How many vaccines can a body get without adverse effects?



No one knows because it hasn't been studied and likely never will be in the US where vaccine manufacturers have liability immunity.

I'm convinced it's this barrage of vaccines children now get under the current ever increasing CDC recommended schedule that's causing vaccine injury in susceptible children like my nephew.  Included in the vaccine schedule now are redundant boosters which--the need for or safety of--have not been studied.


----------



## AnnieA

StarSong said:


> Aren't you in the health care industry?  If so, do you think vaccinations will be required of most folks in your business?



I am.  I will continue to do as I have since the pandemic started ...put on an n95 before entering the facility, and only take it off after exiting.

  Requiring vaccinations for health care employment is probably not a great idea if you want a fully staffed system.


----------



## Phoenix

I'm getting it.  I do have underlying conditions, but I will wait probably until April to get it to see how it's fairing.  Those who opt out are putting the rest of us at risk.   No one has the right to kill me.


----------



## AnnieA

Phoenix said:


> Those who opt out are putting the rest of us at risk. No one has the right to kill me.



Nor do you have the right to endanger me.


----------



## Sunny

Like I said before, no other disease and its vaccine has been held up to so much scrutiny, negativity, dug-in-heels opinions, etc.  For those who prefer to spend even more months, or years, locked in their homes, wearing masks whenever they go out, etc. I guess it's a free country.

For those who want to endanger others, no, I don't think they have the right to do that.

But let's step back for a moment and just consider:  since we haven't heard even one word about bad side effects, dangers, and so on, why on earth would anyone be proudly proclaiming that they will not take measures to protect their own health, and the health of their loved ones?


----------



## AnnieA

Sunny said:


> .... since we haven't heard even one word about bad side effects, dangers, and so on...



We won't know this about a fast-tracked product until it goes into general use; hence, the "wait and see" approach some of us are taking.


----------



## win231

Furryanimal said:


> I'm getting it.  I do have underlying conditions, but I will wait probably until April to get it to see how it's fairing.  Those who opt out are putting the rest of us at risk.   No one has the right to kill me.





Phoenix said:


> I'm getting it.  I do have underlying conditions, but I will wait probably until April to get it to see how it's fairing.  Those who opt out are putting the rest of us at risk.   No one has the right to kill me.


^^^ True programmed robot.


----------



## debodun

No...unless it becomes mandatory.


----------



## Aunt Marg

Sunny said:


> Like I said before, no other disease and its vaccine has been held up to so much scrutiny, negativity, dug-in-heels opinions, etc.  For those who prefer to spend even more months, or years, locked in their homes, wearing masks whenever they go out, etc. I guess it's a free country.
> 
> For those who want to endanger others, no, I don't think they have the right to do that.
> 
> *But let's step back for a moment and just consider:  since we haven't heard even one word about bad side effects, dangers, and so on, why on earth would anyone be proudly proclaiming that they will not take measures to protect their own health, and the health of their loved ones?*


Just because there's been no released information on negative or even grave side-effects, doesn't mean that serious, even fatal side-effects don't exist.

As with all things Big Pharma and money, we're always the last to know.


----------



## win231

StarSong said:


> Aren't you in the health care industry?  If so, do you think vaccinations will be required of most folks in your business?


They sometimes try that with the flu shot.  A vaccine can be "strongly recommended" but no employer can make it mandatory as a condition of continued employment.
A friend of mine is a P.A.  (Physician's Assistant).  Her boss told her a flu shot was required.  She said "No; that's my decision, not yours."  Her boss knew she would seek legal action if he fired her & he would lose, so he wisely didn't push it.


----------



## AnnieA

Aunt Marg said:


> Just because there's been no released information on negative or even grave side-effects, doesn't mean that serious, even fatal side-effects don't exist.
> 
> As with all things Big Pharma and money, we're always the last to know.



Very true.  Big Pharma has indemnity for vaccines in the US , funds US safety studies and much of US continuing medical education, pays out more 'aboveboard' lobbying dollars to the US Congress than any other industry (even topping Big Oil), so there's very little accountability in the United States, especially given our polarized, unreliable media.


----------



## Aunt Marg

AnnieA said:


> Very true.  Big Pharma has indemnity for vaccines in the US , funds US safety studies and much of US continuing medical education, pays out more aboveboard lobbying dollars to the US Congress than any other industry (even topping Big Oil), so there's very little accountability in the United States, especially given the are lack of reliable, truthful media.


Well said, Annie.


----------



## StarSong

win231 said:


> ^^^ True programmed robot.


Perhaps the same could be said about you, just different programming.


----------



## chic

Sunny said:


> I don't understand your second sentence, chic. It seems to me that if you are out with people daily and exposed, and have not had a vaccine, your immune system will of course try to fight it. But too often. the immune system loses that fight.
> 
> I looked up "herd immunity" and found this definition:
> 
> _Herd immunity (or community immunity) occurs when a high percentage of the community is immune to a disease (through vaccination and/or prior illness), making the spread of this disease from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and the immunocompromised) are offered some protection because the disease has little opportunity to spread within the community._
> 
> So people counting on herd immunity are counting on most of the others to be vaccinated, or to have already had the disease and therefore not be infectious. It's like the people who won't get their kids vaccinated against measles because most of the other kids have been.
> 
> Your last sentence is not true. Masks, lockdowns, and social distancing do work, _when they are adhered to.  _The countries that imposed strict regulations have driven the disease down to nothing, or nearly nothing. The places where people congregate in large numbers, unmasked, are the ones with the highest number of cases and deaths. Seems to me the writing is on the wall.
> 
> We're all sick of quarantining and all the rest of it. But until we get the vaccine, that's the only weapon we have.


 
No. I'm not out everyday, but most days. When referring to herd immunity I think of it in terms of the historical sense, survival of the fittest, Darwinian definition because there was a time when there were no vaccines of any kind to help people yet some people didn't get bubonic plague, let's say, while it wiped out a large chunk of the population of Europe as history tells us. I don't know why this was. It just happened/happens.

I do believe medicine could help with the virus, it's helped some famous people / celebrities, until there is a safe vaccine and if it makes people feel safer to quarantine until there is a safe vaccine, they are free to do so of course. My cousin is a pharmaceutical engineer at J&J, not working on a vaccine or anything like that, but he does know more about these things than I do and he told me last May there would not be a vaccine for for this virus for 18 months - 2 years.

Have a nice Thanksgiving!!!


----------



## Ruthanne

chic said:


> I only know what Aussie's tell me about Australia, but I do remember late last spring they were doing well while we were not. And now it's going badly again. And so it will go over and over again.
> 
> There is no way to make this work because it could take years, not months of this before there is a safe vaccine and this isn't working in the USA or Europe.
> 
> Why can't the experts work on medicine for the interim? Something that will help people recover from covid or at least survive it while freeing the rest of us from bondage until there is a safe, well tested, vaccine that will appeal to a larger segment of the population than is currently interested in vaccines?
> 
> To keep doing the same thing over and over again knowing it will not work is simply insane and a waste of time. It's worse because it's also a lie. I'm sure there are medicines that will help safely and effectively. At least they could try.


Chic they are working on medicines for this virus.   Be assured of that.


----------



## JimBob1952

Hey all, 

This is the best single piece I've read on the subject.  I hope the incoming administration takes these recommendations to heart. Totally sane and sensible.  

It's time for our 4-person, socially distanced, semi-outdoor Thanksgiving dinner.  My best to all of you.  

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/covid-19-is-out-of-control-what-can-we-do/617097/


----------



## Warrigal

Happy Thanksgiving JimBob, and to all of you celebrating today. Stay safe.


----------



## garyt1957

Don M. said:


> The thing that worries me is that the medical staff will be among the very first to receive these vaccinations.  We better Hope there aren't a rash of serious side effects....that would severely impact our doctors and nurses in a time when those people are already stretched to their limits.  Then, the next priority is supposed to be Seniors living in care facilities, etc., and those with pre-existing conditions.   It will probably be well into Springtime before the majority of healthy people have access to the vaccines, and by then, we should have a fairly good idea of If there are any risks of being vaccinated.
> No matter of what direction this virus takes in coming months, it will still be a long time before we can safely return to "normalcy".


Supposedly they've taken this into account and won't vaccinate an entire hospital at one time where if there was a problem, the whole hospital would be down. So they've at least thought about it.


----------



## Becky1951

garyt1957 said:


> Supposedly they've taken this into account and won't vaccinate an entire hospital at one time where if there was a problem, the whole hospital would be down. So they've at least thought about it.


One the one hand that's comforting to know they have considered that, on the other, it doesn't sound as if they are very confident that there will be no serious side effects.


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> One the one hand that's comforting to know they have considered that, on the other, it doesn't sound as if they are very confident that there will be no serious side effects.


It sounds like the side effects are pretty common and will sideline a good percentage of recipients for 1-3 days.


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> This is the best single piece I've read on the subject.  I hope the incoming administration takes these recommendations to heart. Totally sane and sensible.
> 
> It's time for our 4-person, socially distanced, semi-outdoor Thanksgiving dinner.  My best to all of you.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/covid-19-is-out-of-control-what-can-we-do/617097/


This article made a lot of excellent points but I just don't think anyone, neither experts nor gov't, was prepared for this. The organization and planning wasn't there, the equipment wasn't there, no one had practiced or drilled...nothing was in place.


----------



## JimBob1952

Murrmurr said:


> This article made a lot of excellent points but I just don't think anyone, neither experts nor gov't, was prepared for this. The organization and planning wasn't there, the equipment wasn't there, no one had practiced or drilled...nothing was in place.



We weren't prepared for Pearl Harbor, either.  But nine months later we had the Japanese in retreat.  We've had almost a year to respond and the situation is getting worse instead of better.


----------



## Marie5656

*I have read that after front line people, seniors are among the at risk people who will have access.  If I can get it, and I know it is effective, I will go for it. *


----------



## AnnieA

Marie5656 said:


> *...If I can get it, and I know it is effective, I will go for it. *




It will be approved through "Accelerated Approval" which means it will go out without Phase 4 trials. Phase 4 trials usually take three years and show "anticipated clinical benefit" not definitive benefit.   In the case of Accelerated Approval, Phase 4 trials still have to be done, they're just done using data from the real world rather than a controlled experiment.   So it'll be a while before the pharmaceutical companies, the FDA or we know for sure there's clinical benefit.


----------



## win231

JimBob1952 said:


> We weren't prepared for Pearl Harbor, either.  But nine months later we had the Japanese in retreat.  We've had almost a year to respond and the situation is getting worse instead of better.


Big difference between taking lives & saving lives.


----------



## Sunny

Remember Richard Schiff, who played Toby Ziegler in The West Sing? He was recently interviewed about him and his wife getting Covid-19 and being hospitalized in Canada, where they were shooting a film when he got sick. Very interesting discussion of the illness, and he had some very good things to say about the Canadian health system.


----------



## JimBob1952

win231 said:


> Big difference between taking lives & saving lives.



Of course.  The point is that when we mobilize and are unified as a nation, we can accomplish a lot.  That has not been the case in the Covid-19 response, at least in my opinion.


----------



## JimBob1952

Sunny said:


> Remember Richard Schiff, who played Toby Ziegler in The West Sing? He was recently interviewed about him and his wife getting Covid-19 and being hospitalized in Canada, where they were shooting a film when he got sick. Very interesting discussion of the illness, and he had some very good things to say about the Canadian health system.



Sort of incoherent in that he urges people to take common sense precautions, then notes that he and his wife got sick despite taking such precautions.  Also, he doesn't know if he got sick on set or not -- he's not an epidemiologist.   

Re Canadian healthcare, it's "free" in that it's paid for by taxes.  

"While there isn't a designated "healthcare tax," the latest data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) in 2017 found that on average a Canadian spends $6,604 in taxes for healthcare coverage." (Business Insider)

No doubt we could design a far more efficient and humane health care system.  But no system is "free".  The best system I've read about is in Germany and that's paid for by an 8 percent separate tax on all income.  So if you make a million dollars a year, you pay $80,000 in healthcare tax. That isn't "fair" but Germans are willing to do that so that people without means can be covered.  

Please understand I am not defending the US system, which is severely flawed.  I'm just saying that people don't know what paying for other kinds of healthcare systems entails.  

Interestingly, my wife got sick in France and we went to a public clinic.  A doctor saw her and prescribed medication.  Two months later we got a bill for $80 in the mail, which we most willingly paid. (They took Visa!)


----------



## JimBob1952

Another point:  We tend to give doctors a pass in the healthcare debate.  But US doctors are wildly overpaid by global standards.  They also rack up obscene debts to pay for medical school.  Again, a broken system, and no one is even discussing the right fixes.


----------



## Sunny

> Re Canadian healthcare, it's "free" in that it's paid for by taxes.



Well, it was free for him. He isn't a Canadian, so I don't know how much he paid in "taxes" while in Canada.


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> We weren't prepared for Pearl Harbor, either.  But nine months later we had the Japanese in retreat.  We've had almost a year to respond and the situation is getting worse instead of better.


The military is all about drills and practice, they do it every day. They have a huge budget and they're always prepared to mobilize. I'd say they were least prepared for the situation in Nam. That might have been a slightly better comparison.


----------



## Mat

After all the side effects were listed I have no intention of taking it until it is improved.  I already have DDD and a lot of pain I sure don't need to volunteer to have more.  All sorts of muscle pain and other associated side effects have been disclosed.  It sounds like a vaccine made in 1950.  I took a steroid pill several years ago and it nearly paralyzed me, that bottle of pills went into the garbage.  One vaccine is not always good for millions of people.  The comment from the user above me about not being prepared for NAM,  never drink the water !  I spent 3 days in our local hospital on the airfield, it was always the food or the water.  Usually when rainy season started the wells all were shifted and that was when the fun started.  Wild Turkey was a great vaccine or Cognac, taste good too


----------



## JimBob1952

Sunny said:


> Well, it was free for him. He isn't a Canadian, so I don't know how much he paid in "taxes" while in Canada.






Murrmurr said:


> The military is all about drills and practice, they do it every day. They have a huge budget and they're always prepared to mobilize. I'd say they were least prepared for the situation in Nam. That might have been a slightly better comparison.



Fighting WWII was all about mobilizing the industrial might of the US and putting it behind the war effort.  I would say it's an apt comparison.  Before WWII, our military was tiny (smaller than Portugal's) and starved for funds.


----------



## Pinky

deleted


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> Fighting WWII was all about mobilizing the industrial might of the US and putting it behind the war effort.  I would say it's an apt comparison.  Before WWII, our military was tiny (smaller than Portugal's) and starved for funds.


Ah, yeah, I see your point now.
Interesting side note: it was WWI that brought us a comparable influenza pandemic. And sparked the requirement of vaccines for international travelers.


----------



## Pinky

Sunny said:


> Well, it was free for him. He isn't a Canadian, so I don't know how much he paid in "taxes" while in Canada.


If he was working here, he probably had landed immigrant status, which would give him access to our health system. 

Once you turn 65, you pay a dispensing fee, and possibly a small amount for your medication. If your income is low, you pay zero dollars.


----------



## dobielvr

The last time I took a flu shot I was sick 16days out of the month.  I missed a lot of work.   I'm guessing it didn't agree w/my biologic I take for my arthritis.  Haven't had the flu since, not like that anyway.

So, hence, I'm worried about taking this covid shot.  Seeing my rheumy next month, i will be talking to her about it, but I doubt I'll change my mind.


----------



## Murrmurr

I didn't actually answer the poster's Q, so I will... 
I've never had a flu shot and never had the flu, not even when I was a kid. Based on that, though I've read how this one is *different* I won't get this flu shot. That said, if my physician can reasonably convince me that I _need_ to get it, I will.


----------



## chic

Ruthanne said:


> Chic they are working on medicines for this virus.   Be assured of that.


I'm glad to know that. Why push a vaccine on people if it can be treated with medicine? It takes years to formulate and test a vaccine that will be safe. I remember this from the polio vaccine. How long people waited.


----------



## JimBob1952

Murrmurr said:


> Ah, yeah, I see your point now.
> Interesting side note: it was WWI that brought us a comparable influenza pandemic. And sparked the requirement of vaccines for international travelers.



Yes, absolutely.  From what I have read we did a good job of fighting the pandemic given the limited knowledge and resources we had at the time.  I'd like to learn more about it.


----------



## Murrmurr

JimBob1952 said:


> Yes, absolutely.  From what I have read we did a good job of fighting the pandemic given the limited knowledge and resources we had at the time.  I'd like to learn more about it.


Took a while for people to really grasp the scope and science of the thing (as in 2020) and some were fighting it by wearing little bags of garlic around their necks and setting out jars of sliced onions in their bedrooms and stuff like that.


----------



## Treacle

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/oxfords-90-vaccine-finding-was-only-in-younger-age-groups/

/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8994363/Severely-obese-people-Covid-vaccine-elderly-Brits.html

But if the vaccine was only tested on those who were healthy and under 55, why are the first in line over 80 and those with health issues high on the list?


----------



## Becky1951

Treacle said:


> https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/oxfords-90-vaccine-finding-was-only-in-younger-age-groups/
> 
> /www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8994363/Severely-obese-people-Covid-vaccine-elderly-Brits.html
> 
> But if the vaccine was only tested on those who were healthy and under 55, why are the first in line over 80 and those with health issues high on the list?


“Given that many vaccines are less effective in older people, we have to be even more cautious about taking this 90% efficacy at face value, at least for older people.”

Also for those with preexisting conditions.

Maybe those over 80 and those with health conditions are considered expendable. Sort of makes you wonder.


----------



## Jules

Sunny said:


> Well, it was free for him. He isn't a Canadian, so I don't know how much he paid in "taxes" while in Canada.



Canadians know our medical coverage isn’t free.  We’ve all paid into it, some more than others.  I don’t mind in the least.  It’s very few dollars compared to the US. There’s no fear of going to the hospital or a doctor.  Even if you have a bill for some reason, it won’t leave you bankrupt.  

Americans & those from other countries can’t just come here and expect free medical care.  There are those who have tried.  

Schiff may receive a bill, though I doubt it.  He will be covered by his Actors Guild or similar insurance purchased through the tv production company.


----------



## Phoenix

One thing we know for certain is that the pandemic is lethal.  None of us are exempt.  We can die without the vaccine.  We can live but pass it on to others and they die, or we can take responsibility for our behaviors and take the vaccine and practice all the safety protocols..  Our safety and the safety of those we encounter are up to us.  Please listen to the overstressed medical profession.  They risk their lives every day for us.  They are breaking now, because we are so selfish.   A lot of older people are dying all over the place.  Younger ones too.  Please take the vaccine.  Please.


----------



## Sunny

Our paper just had an article about the problems that will be caused by the fact that the current version of the vaccine, which will probably be used first, is a double dose. It talks about the horrendous logistics of scheduling a double dose for inmates in prisons, people in hospitals and nursing homes, etc., who might not still be there when it's time for the second dose. So, then what do they do with the second dose?  Use it as someone else's first dose?  Or could it turn out that one dose is actually enough, to begin with?

And some people will decline to go back for the second dose because their arm was sore, and other side effects that they don't want to repeat. Wow, it's mind boggling to think of what administering this vaccine to millions of people will entail.


----------



## win231

Phoenix said:


> One thing we know for certain is that the pandemic is lethal.  None of us are exempt.  We can die without the vaccine.  We can live but pass it on to others and they die, or we can take responsibility for our behaviors and take the vaccine and practice all the safety protocols..  Our safety and the safety of those we encounter are up to us.  Please listen to the overstressed medical profession.  They risk their lives every day for us.  They are breaking now, because we are so selfish.   A lot of older people are dying all over the place.  Younger ones too.  Please take the vaccine.  Please.


Ah.....so you're the one who designed those banners that say, _"If you don't get a flu shot, you're making others sick."      _


----------



## ProTruckDriver

My Oncologist told me "Do Not Get It". With Leukemia (CLL) and Agammaglobulinemia he told me it will be a few years before I can get it. Looks like I'll be wearing a face mask when I go out and staying home for a long time. I do get the seasonal Flu shot every year. I'll sit back and watch the effects the vaccine has on other people for the next few years. Hopefully all will go well.


----------



## Butterfly

chic said:


> I'm glad to know that. Why push a vaccine on people if it can be treated with medicine? It takes years to formulate and test a vaccine that will be safe. I remember this from the polio vaccine. How long people waited.



In my book, it is a heck of a lot better to prevent the disease in the first place than to get it, be sick with it and then treat it.  Also remember covid can cause lasting damage to lungs, etc.  And who's saying that drugs to treat it would be safe, either?  Most drugs come with a whole array of side effects, some mild, some not so.


----------



## Butterfly

Becky1951 said:


> “Given that many vaccines are less effective in older people, we have to be even more cautious about taking this 90% efficacy at face value, at least for older people.”
> 
> Also for those with preexisting conditions.
> 
> Maybe those over 80 and those with health conditions are considered expendable. Sort of makes you wonder.


 Or maybe it is because those folks are the most likely to die if they DO get covid, so it makes sense to protect them first?


----------



## win231

Phoenix said:


> One thing we know for certain is that the pandemic is lethal.  None of us are exempt.  We can die without the vaccine.  We can live but pass it on to others and they die, or we can take responsibility for our behaviors and take the vaccine and practice all the safety protocols..  Our safety and the safety of those we encounter are up to us.  Please listen to the overstressed medical profession.  They risk their lives every day for us.  They are breaking now, because we are so selfish.   A lot of older people are dying all over the place.  Younger ones too.  Please take the vaccine.  Please.


^^^ Programming is effective for some.  You have an overpowering need to control.
A drug/vaccine/medical test is an individual decision.  You are free to make yours.  Others are free to make theirs.  You cannot make others' health decisions.


----------



## chic

Butterfly said:


> In my book, it is a heck of a lot better to prevent the disease in the first place than to get it, be sick with it and then treat it.  Also remember covid can cause lasting damage to lungs, etc.  And who's saying that drugs to treat it would be safe, either?  Most drugs come with a whole array of side effects, some mild, some not so.


In the interim period, between now and a safe vaccine which more than half the population will willingly take, it's a good idea to have medicine to help treat this. 

I'm surprised, or maybe I shouldn't be, that those in control are pushing a vaccine at people instead of medicine. And who pays for all this financially? Who pays for our vaccines? Who stands to make the most money from this? I've asked these questions before and nobody touches them, but they are valid questions. Someone is going to make a bundle by scaring people half to death about this virus and then shoving a vaccine in their face. I'd like to know who?


----------



## charry

We won’t have the vaccine.....we don’t go in for any of the guinea pig tests....


I’m told they are now giving flu vaccines from America that havnt even been licience yet


----------



## charry

ProTruckDriver said:


> My Oncologist told me "Do Not Get It". With Leukemia (CLL) and Agammaglobulinemia he told me it will be a few years before I can get it. Looks like I'll be wearing a face mask when I go out and staying home for a long time. I do get the seasonal Flu shot every year. I'll sit back and watch the effects the vaccine has on other people for the next few years. Hopefully all will go well.


I’m with you there.....mask and solo.....


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Ah.....so you're the one who designed those banners that say, _"If you don't get a flu shot, you're making others sick."     _


 Wow, just wow.


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> ^^^ Programming is effective for some.  You have an overpowering need to control.
> A drug/vaccine/medical test is an individual decision.  You are free to make yours.  Others are free to make theirs.  You cannot make others' health decisions.


Speaking as a person who is somewhat knowledgeable about control issues, I think her words speak to compassion and concern for others rather than any need to control.  This is the time of plague, we need to stand strong together, whether or not we are always in agreement.


----------



## ProTruckDriver

Has anyone seen this report:

https://www.who.int/csr/don/06-november-2020-mink-associated-sars-cov2-denmark/en/

_"Available evidence suggests that the virus is predominantly transmitted between people through respiratory droplets and close contact, but there are also examples of transmission between humans and animals. Several animals that have been in contact with infected humans, such as minks, dogs, domestic cats, lions and tigers, have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2."

"Preliminary findings indicate that this particular mink-associated variant identified in both minks and the 12 human cases has moderately decreased sensitivity to neutralizing antibodies."_

From what I'm reading in other reports is that they haven't even started on a vaccine for this new strand of virus caused by COVID 19. It's a scary world we live in now a days.

_Edit: Sorry, I see there is a thread on this mink virus already. ( I haven't had my morning coffee. Next time I'll look first before posting )  _


----------



## Warrigal

Treacle said:


> https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/uk/oxfords-90-vaccine-finding-was-only-in-younger-age-groups/
> 
> /www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8994363/Severely-obese-people-Covid-vaccine-elderly-Brits.html
> 
> But if the vaccine was only tested on those who were healthy and under 55, why are the first in line over 80 and those with health issues high on the list?


First in line will be the frontline healthcare workers, and rightly so. They are the ones who have risked their own health to care for COVID patients and who being burnt out in the large numbers. Next should be essential workers: the transport workers, cleaners, teachers and others without whom businesses and industries cannot function. We need these people, and their families to be safe. Only after these people have been offered the vaccine should it roll out to retirees who can protect themselves by social isolating.


----------



## Sassycakes

Treacle said:


> That's what I was thinking since I take prescription drugs for a few issues I have like High Blood pressure and diabetes.
> What if people are taking other prescription drugs e.g blood pressure tablets. Would the vaccines interfere with those tablets? I was under the impression that the trials were carried out on 'healthy' individuals. Just a thought


 That's what I was thinking since I take some prescription drugs for High Blood Pressure and Diabetes.


----------



## Sunny

chic said:


> In the interim period, between now and a safe vaccine which more than half the population will willingly take, it's a good idea to have medicine to help treat this.
> 
> *I'm surprised, or maybe I shouldn't be, that those in control are pushing a vaccine at people instead of medicine. *And who pays for all this financially? Who pays for our vaccines? Who stands to make the most money from this? I've asked these questions before and nobody touches them, but they are valid questions. Someone is going to make a bundle by scaring people half to death about this virus and then shoving a vaccine in their face. I'd like to know who?


Chic, from my very limited knowledge of this subject, I believe that with bacterial infections we have the benefit of "after the fact" antibiotics. There is no such thing for viruses. The best thing we can do against lethal viruses is fight them with vaccines. That's why we have no magic cure for smallpox or polio, but we do have vaccines against them.

And anyway, wouldn't you rather just not get sick in the first place?


----------



## StarSong

win231 said:


> Ah.....so you're the one who designed those banners that say, _"If you don't get a flu shot, you're making others sick."     _


You've mentioned this before.  I've never seen such a banner, nor does an Internet search yield a single hit for it.    



charry said:


> We won’t have the vaccine.....we don’t go in for any of the guinea pig tests....
> 
> 
> *I’m told they are now giving flu vaccines from America that haven't even been licience yet *


I've never heard this.  CDC and FDA approval and licensing are required for all vaccinations administered in the US, including flu vaccines and up-and-coming COVID vaccines.


----------



## Liberty

chic said:


> In the interim period, between now and a safe vaccine which more than half the population will willingly take, it's a good idea to have medicine to help treat this.
> 
> I'm surprised, or maybe I shouldn't be, that those in control are pushing a vaccine at people instead of medicine. And who pays for all this financially? Who pays for our vaccines? Who stands to make the most money from this? I've asked these questions before and nobody touches them, but they are valid questions. Someone is going to make a bundle by scaring people half to death about this virus and then shoving a vaccine in their face. I'd like to know who?


My friend from WHO says  the vaccines are like winning the lottery for the makers. Its the "mother load".Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't take them - just because big Pharma makes  a lot of dough.

Think looking at the cautions on the vaccine sign sheet may tell us some things.  For instance, the current flu shots call attention to those that are allergic to eggs and GBS. Also, the ones that will be available to us early here are formulated using "new" technology and I don't think we can compare them to what we've had before.  So much money has been thrown at this and never before in history have so many scientists joined the "hunt" and development of 
a monumental vaccine goal.


----------



## ClassicRockr

Boy, America sure is torn apart by different issues this year. 

As far as this virus goes, American's have to try and be on the same page, however that just isn't going to happen. My 76 yr. old SIL, won't get the Senior Flu Shot, but definitely gets sick when she is a "substitute teacher". When she would tell us, "I'm sick again", we try to change the subject. We have gotten tired of saying, "we've told you before when this keeps happening". 

Since she hasn't got the Senior Shot, this Thanksgiving, her two daughters wouldn't let her come to their homes for Thanksgiving. She misses her daughters and grandkids, but we all done a Zoom for Thanksgiving. Better than nothing!


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> Speaking as a person who is somewhat knowledgeable about control issues, I think her words speak to compassion and concern for others rather than any need to control.  This is the time of plague, we need to stand strong together, whether or not we are always in agreement.


Whether or not you're knowledgeable, you are off the mark.  Anyone who tells others to "do as I do" is a control freak.
And "Standing Strong" is not the issue.


----------



## win231

StarSong said:


> You've mentioned this before.  I've never seen such a banner, nor does an Internet search yield a single hit for it.
> 
> 
> I've never heard this.  CDC and FDA approval and licensing are required for all vaccinations administered in the US, including flu vaccines and up-and-coming COVID vaccines.


Kaiser Permanente in Woodland Hills, CA hung the banner above the walkway that goes to their parking lot & also above the main entrance to the facility in flu seasons past.  There is major construction going on there now, so the banner may not be there.


----------



## win231

Liberty said:


> My friend from WHO says  the vaccines are like winning the lottery for the makers. Its the "mother load".Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't take them - just because big Pharma makes  a lot of dough.
> 
> Think looking at the cautions on the vaccine sign sheet may tell us some things.  For instance, the current flu shots call attention to those that are allergic to eggs and GBS. Also, the ones that will be available to us early here are formulated using "new" technology and I don't think we can compare them to what we've had before.  So much money has been thrown at this and never before in history have so many scientists joined the "hunt" and development of
> a monumental vaccine goal.


^^^Bingo.  And when the pot for the lottery is this big, safety usually goes out the window.


----------



## win231

ClassicRockr said:


> Boy, America sure is torn apart by different issues this year.
> 
> As far as this virus goes, American's have to try and be on the same page, however that just isn't going to happen. My 76 yr. old SIL, won't get the Senior Flu Shot, but definitely gets sick when she is a "substitute teacher". When she would tell us, "I'm sick again", we try to change the subject. We have gotten tired of saying, "we've told you before when this keeps happening".
> 
> Since she hasn't got the Senior Shot, this Thanksgiving, her two daughters wouldn't let her come to their homes for Thanksgiving. She misses her daughters and grandkids, but we all done a Zoom for Thanksgiving. Better than nothing!


Keep in mind that "Getting Sick" is not always the flu.  Therefore, a flu shot wouldn't prevent it.  People often say "I have the flu" when they just have a cold.  I've even heard people say, "I had fever, vomiting & diarrhea for 3 days because I didn't get a flu shot."  They're confusing food poisoning with the flu.


----------



## chic

Sunny said:


> Chic, from my very limited knowledge of this subject, I believe that with bacterial infections we have the benefit of "after the fact" antibiotics. There is no such thing for viruses. The best thing we can do against lethal viruses is fight them with vaccines. That's why we have no magic cure for smallpox or polio, but we do have vaccines against them.
> 
> And anyway, wouldn't you rather just not get sick in the first place?


Well my cousin in CA got what she thought was covid last May. So she was taken to a hospital and tested. The results were negative but she did have all the symptoms of a covid like flu. The doctor prescribed an antibiotic cocktail of Tetracycline and Doxycycline. She fully recovered within a few days. So I'm glad for that. Why I wouldn't take a vaccine now? Because it's being done too fast and I do know from my cuz at J&J that no vaccine or any medicine should be handled this way. One of his deepest regrets as a pharmaceutical engineer is that he knows he may not live to see people benefit from his work. 

It's just the speed of it. Besides, I've lived in a covid infested world for 9 months going out almost daily, maskless because I cannot wear one due to a medical condition and I know from the evidence of my own eyes that the world is not as dangerous as the media is telling people it is. I can understand people who have stayed in quarantining all this time watching CNN would be scared to death of this virus.


----------



## Liberty

This is an interesting article from Yale regarding the vaccine issues:

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-safety


----------



## Sunny

Chic, doesn't the "evidence of your own eyes"  show you the bodies being loaded into refrigerated trucks?  And the exhausted health care workers who are working around the clock, often with dying patients?  And the personal experiences that people who have barely survived have shared with us, begging us to take care of ourselves and follow the advice about wearing masks and social distancing? And the figures of sickness and death going up all the time, especially in this country?  Do you think Italy and other countries shut down for an entire month in the spring just for some frivolous reason? (And how did that benefit anyone's bank account?)

You say they are developing the vaccine too fast. Many would say too slowly. We are in a crisis, this is not something to deal with in a leisurely manner. I am impressed beyond measure by the ability of the researchers to be developing this vaccine as fast as they are! Of course, we don't want them to be slipshod about it. I haven't heard any accusations that this is the case.

I hear what you're saying: you are not personally seeing people dying right in front of you; therefore it can't be happening. I'm not seeing that either, fortunately. But I believe it. I don't think there is a huge media conspiracy designed to needlessly scare everybody, in order to make somebody rich.


----------



## Liberty

Recent article from Dr. Fauci on the vaccine safety:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...you-should-not-fear-covid-vaccine/6353614002/


----------



## StarSong

Liberty said:


> This is an interesting article from Yale regarding the vaccine issues:
> 
> https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-safety


Very good article, thanks.  Unfortunately, it's from October 19th - a very long time ago in terms of vaccine progress. 

I hope they update the information soon.


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Whether or not you're knowledgeable, you are off the mark.  Anyone who tells others to "do as I do" is a control freak.
> And "Standing Strong" is not the issue.


 So much anger. Sad, really.


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> So much anger. Sad, really.


LOL.


----------



## AnnieA

Shalimar said:


> Speaking as a person who is somewhat knowledgeable about control issues, I think her words speak to compassion and concern for others rather than any need to control. ...



She's "standing strong" on an issue that has a lot of unanswered questions.   The biggest unanswered question is real world efficacy and we won't know that until Phase IV trials will start after the "Advanced Approval" rollout into the general population.   Other unanswered questions involved how people above 60 will react to the vaccine because that was the cut off in the broadest age parameter study to date.  And there are many, many more unanswered questions including how long the vaccine antibodies will even protect.  The stronger antibodies produced by actual illness aren't lasting but a few months in some people who have gotten Covid-19 twice.

This issue is a personal one that people must make after serious study.   Not an issue to attempt to emotionally manipulate people into one's personal view with dramatic rhetoric.   I'm guessing that's what @win231 is picking up on.


----------



## Butterfly

Sunny said:


> Chic, doesn't the "evidence of your own eyes"  show you the bodies being loaded into refrigerated trucks?  And the exhausted health care workers who are working around the clock, often with dying patients?  And the personal experiences that people who have barely survived have shared with us, begging us to take care of ourselves and follow the advice about wearing masks and social distancing? And the figures of sickness and death going up all the time, especially in this country?  Do you think Italy and other countries shut down for an entire month in the spring just for some frivolous reason? (And how did that benefit anyone's bank account?)
> 
> You say they are developing the vaccine too fast. Many would say too slowly. We are in a crisis, this is not something to deal with in a leisurely manner. I am impressed beyond measure by the ability of the researchers to be developing this vaccine as fast as they are! Of course, we don't want them to be slipshod about it. I haven't heard any accusations that this is the case.
> 
> I hear what you're saying: you are not personally seeing people dying right in front of you; therefore it can't be happening. I'm not seeing that either, fortunately. But I believe it. I don't think there is a huge media conspiracy designed to needlessly scare everybody, in order to make somebody rich.


Well said.  A lot of things happen in the world that we don't personally see.  I didn't personally see anybody get killed in Vietnam, but some of my school friends came home in sealed boxes.  If we only believe what we personally see, our world will become unbelievably small.  

I don't believe there's a huge media conspiracy, either.  In the first place, how many people would have to be involved in such a conspiracy to make it work?  What are they getting out of it?  How could a conspiracy that large be controlled so nobody blabs?  Are frontline doctors and other medical workers in on it?  Were the great number of medical workers who've died of it in on it?  Why would they do that?  Were all the people who've died in on it?  What did they get?  If they're not really dead, where did they go?  Are/were over a quarter of a million dead Americans in on said  conspiracy?  That's one hell of a lot of conspirators.

I don't believe it for one minute.


----------



## AnnieA

chic said:


> It's just the speed of it. Besides, I've lived in a covid infested world for 9 months going out almost daily, maskless because I cannot wear one due to a medical condition and I know from the evidence of my own eyes that the world is not as dangerous as the media is telling people it is. I can understand people who have stayed in quarantining all this time watching CNN would be scared to death of this virus.



I think everyone after that initial fearful shelter-in-place period goes through a stage of not believing it's bad ...until it is.  Our area didn't really get going until mid July.  Since that time, our friends and family group have lost six people.   The five stages of grief ...anger, depression, denial, bargaining, acceptance... occur in no particular order and we can reach acceptance only to go back into one of the other stages.


----------



## Furryanimal

Someone just posted this elsewhere

"TED notice 506291" description of tender: The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the EXPECTED HIGH volume of Covid-19 vaccine ADVERSE Drug Reaction (ADRs)


----------



## Becky1951

Furryanimal said:


> Someone just posted this elsewhere
> 
> "TED notice 506291" description of tender: The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the EXPECTED HIGH volume of Covid-19 vaccine ADVERSE Drug Reaction (ADRs)


Re: Covid-19 vaccines: Many ADRs are already expected

Dear Editor

The Ted-tenders electronic daily: Supplement to the Official Journal of the EU, details a contract negotiated by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Agency (MHRA), dated 14.9.20 (1).

It states: “The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs) and ensure that no details from the ADRs’ reaction text are missed”.

It further explains: “For reasons of extreme urgency under Regulation 32(2)(c) related to the release of a Covid-19 vaccine MHRA have accelerated the sourcing and implementation of a vaccine specific AI tool…… it is not possible to retrofit the MHRA’s legacy systems to handle the volume of ADRs that will be generated by a Covid-19 vaccine. Therefore, if the MHRA does not implement the AI tool, it will be unable to process these ADRs effectively. This will hinder its ability to rapidly identify any potential safety issues with the Covid-19 vaccine and represents a direct threat to patient life and public health”.

Why do they expect that a high volume of ADRs will be generated?

And would it not be more sensible to determine the safety profile of a Covid-19 vaccine while the stable door is shut, rather than monitor the galloping horse once it has bolted?

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4258/rr


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> Re: Covid-19 vaccines: Many ADRs are already expected
> 
> Dear Editor
> 
> The Ted-tenders electronic daily: Supplement to the Official Journal of the EU, details a contract negotiated by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Agency (MHRA), dated 14.9.20 (1).
> 
> It states: “The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs) and ensure that no details from the ADRs’ reaction text are missed”.
> 
> It further explains: “For reasons of extreme urgency under Regulation 32(2)(c) related to the release of a Covid-19 vaccine MHRA have accelerated the sourcing and implementation of a vaccine specific AI tool…… it is not possible to retrofit the MHRA’s legacy systems to handle the volume of ADRs that will be generated by a Covid-19 vaccine. Therefore, if the MHRA does not implement the AI tool, it will be unable to process these ADRs effectively. This will hinder its ability to rapidly identify any potential safety issues with the Covid-19 vaccine and represents a direct threat to patient life and public health”.
> 
> Why do they expect that a high volume of ADRs will be generated?
> 
> And would it not be more sensible to determine the safety profile of a Covid-19 vaccine while the stable door is shut, rather than monitor the galloping horse once it has bolted?
> 
> https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4258/rr


The vaccine studies have been very open about adverse reactions, and have been since the earliest trial phases began.  More than 10% get fevers, headaches and body aches for a day or two.  This hasn't been hidden from us.  

Of course they will - and should - develop a tracking system to stay on top of ADRs.


----------



## Becky1951

StarSong said:


> The vaccine studies have been very open about adverse reactions, and have been since the earliest trial phases began.  More than 10% get fevers, headaches and body aches for a day or two.  This hasn't been hidden from us.
> 
> Of course they will - and should - develop a tracking system to stay on top of ADRs.


I'm not concerned with the usual flu like side effects.
This is what's highly concerning.

"a direct threat to patient life and public health"


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> I'm not concerned with the usual flu like side effects.
> This is what's highly concerning.
> 
> "a direct threat to patient life and public health"


The statements are: "Therefore, if the MHRA does not implement the AI tool, it will be unable to process these ADRs effectively. This will hinder its ability to rapidly identify any potential safety issues with the Covid-19 vaccine and represents a direct threat to patient life and public health”.

So the article is saying* if side effects are not tracked, and it turns out there are safety issues*, then there could be a direct threat to patient life & public health. 

Not tracking side effects would be foolhardy indeed, I agree.  But the whole point of the article is their intention to track any ADRs.  "The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs) and ensure that no details from the ADRs’ reaction text are missed." 

Am I missing something here?


----------



## Becky1951

I'm not against a vaccine. I pray daily and sometimes throughout the day for a safe and effective vaccine and treatment to combat this horrendous virus killing people all over the world.

When a *safe *vaccin is available I will get it. And I will be the one determining if it's safe enough. Not those preaching its safety. 

When it's been distributed to enough people and shown to be safe. Until then I will read about it and learn as much as I can about it, and post articles I find that I feel others may be interested in regardless if their are others who feel its A-OK to be first in line, or who think that those who choose to wait are being stupid or a threat to their health just because some wish to wait for proven safety.


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> I'm not against a vaccine. I pray daily and sometimes throughout the day for a safe and effective vaccine and treatment to combat this horrendous virus killing people all over the world.
> 
> When a *safe *vaccin is available I will get it. And I will be the one determining if it's safe enough. Not those preaching its safety.
> 
> When it's been distributed to enough people and shown to be safe. Until then I will read about it and learn as much as I can about it, and post articles I find that I feel others may be interested in regardless if their are others who feel its A-OK to be first in line, or who think that those who choose to wait are being stupid or a threat to their health just because some wish to wait for proven safety.


Understood.  Agree that we all have to find our comfort zone with this.  I'm glad to not be a first responder, medical professional or have underlying conditions, because I wouldn't want to have to make an early decision.


----------



## Liberty

StarSong said:


> The statements are: "Therefore, if the MHRA does not implement the AI tool, it will be unable to process these ADRs effectively. This will hinder its ability to rapidly identify any potential safety issues with the Covid-19 vaccine and represents a direct threat to patient life and public health”.
> 
> So the article is saying* if side effects are not tracked, and it turns out there are safety issues*, then there could be a direct threat to patient life & public health.
> 
> Not tracking side effects would be foolhardy indeed, I agree.  But the whole point of the article is their intention to track any ADRs.  "The MHRA urgently seeks an Artificial Intelligence (AI) software tool to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs) and ensure that no details from the ADRs’ reaction text are missed."
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Sounds like they are trying to ramp up the"awareness" timeline for installing the new software...squeaky wheel usually gets the grease!


----------



## Sunny

Becky1951 said:


> I'm not against a vaccine. I pray daily and sometimes throughout the day for a safe and effective vaccine and treatment to combat this horrendous virus killing people all over the world.
> 
> When a *safe *vaccin is available I will get it. And I will be the one determining if it's safe enough. Not those preaching its safety.
> 
> When it's been distributed to enough people and shown to be safe. Until then I will read about it and learn as much as I can about it, and post articles I find that I feel others may be interested in regardless if their are others who feel its A-OK to be first in line, or who think that those who choose to wait are being stupid or a threat to their health just because some wish to wait for proven safety.



Becky, nothing wrong with praying all day for a safe and effective vaccine, if that's what you think it takes to get one. (I don't.)  But developing this vaccine and getting it distributed and used requires more than prayer. Taking any medication requires a certain amount of trust in the medical and scientific communities.  

We all have to reach a certain balance between fear of the unknown, and fear of a very much known danger. For those of us in seniorhood, the danger of dying from this disease is pretty high, and even if you don't die from it, it's certainly not something anyone in their right mind would want to get.

Sadly, this disease was so politicized, at least in this country, that many have allowed that to sway their thinking on the subject. We all have to clear our minds from group thinking, us vs. them, and just pay attention to the numbers. How many people have died from it?  Is the curve continuing to go up, or is it flattening?  And when the vaccine is finally in use, how many have died or gotten seriously ill from taking it?  This is just plain old common sense.

When they came out with a new pneumonia vaccine, and a better vaccine against shingles, my doctor recommended both, and I immediately got them. (No side effects from either.)  I didn't embark on a comprehensive study of these vaccines, I had no idea how long either of them had been in use, how good the testing methods were, what the statistics were about side effects and possible illness and death, whether anyone had grown two heads, whatever. I just took the vaccines, trusting that my doctor knows what he is talking about.

Why all this hoopla about this one vaccine?  Why all the denial (until pretty recently) about the seriousness of this disease?  I have never seen the public, or at least a substantial portion of it, fighting so hard against its own interests. Though of course, the more people that step back and wait, afraid to be in the front lines of receiving the vaccine, the easier it will be for the rest of us to get access to a life-saving medication, and return to normal life.


----------



## C'est Moi

For those of you promoting the vaccine, why so hysterical about others who are hesitating?   If YOU want to take the vaccine, then take it.   You will be protected from those of us who choose not to, so what's the big deal?


----------



## Sunny

Not hysterical at all, C'est Moi.  Just puzzled and astonished.


----------



## AnnieA

Sunny said:


> Becky, nothing wrong with praying all day for a safe and effective vaccine, if that's what you think it takes to get one. (I don't.)  But developing this vaccine and getting it distributed and used requires more than prayer. Taking any medication requires a certain amount of trust in the medical and scientific communities.
> 
> 
> 
> When they came out with a new pneumonia vaccine, and a better vaccine against shingles, my doctor recommended both, and I immediately got them. (No side effects from either.)  I didn't embark on a comprehensive study of these vaccines, I had no idea how long either of them had been in use, how good the testing methods were, what the statistics were about side effects and possible illness and death, whether anyone had grown two heads, whatever. I just took the vaccines, trusting that my doctor knows what he is talking about.
> 
> Why all this hoopla about this one vaccine?  ....


I used to trustingly take them all until my nephew's vaccine injury.  That along with my ever increasing list of autoimmune diseases changed things.

I'm not anti-vax, but do have serious distrust of the pharmaceutical industry having dealt with so many reps in my career who stuck studies in my face without disclosing in our conversation that their company funded the study.  You have to skip to tiny print at the bottom to find the disclosure.

Then there's liability immunity for vaccines in the US for a product made by an industry that pays Congress more lobbying dollars than any other industry.

For the last question: Why all the hoopla for one vaccine?  None of the current ones close to FDA Accelerated Approval been proved effective and won't be until after the fast track roll out when Phase IV trials will start.  Usually Phase IV trials have to be completed before a therapeutic is given to the general public.


----------



## chic

AnnieA said:


> I used to trustingly take them all until my nephew's vaccine injury.  That along with my ever increasing list of autoimmune diseases changed things.
> 
> I'm not anti-vax, but do have serious distrust of the pharmaceutical industry having dealt with so many reps in my career who stuck studies in my face without disclosing in our conversation that their company funded the study.  You have to skip to tiny print at the bottom to find the disclosure.
> 
> Then there's liability immunity for vaccines in the US for a product made by an industry that pays Congress more lobbying dollars than any other industry.
> 
> For the last question: Why all the hoopla for one vaccine?  None of the current ones close to FDA Accelerated Approval been proved effective and won't be until after the fast track roll out when Phase IV trials will start.  Usually Phase IV trials have to be completed before a therapeutic is given to the general public.


If you have autoimmune diseases please be careful. People with autoimmune diseases cannot take a live antibodies vaccine and you may require hospitalization to be inoculated successfully.


----------



## StarSong

AnnieA said:


> For the last question: Why all the hoopla for one vaccine? N*one of the current ones close to FDA Accelerated Approval been proved effective and won't be until after the fast track roll out when Phase IV trials will start*.


When would you expect that to be, Annie?


----------



## win231

C'est Moi said:


> For those of you promoting the vaccine, why so hysterical about others who are hesitating?   If YOU want to take the vaccine, then take it.   You will be protected from those of us who choose not to, so what's the big deal?


Bingo.  Just as with flu shots, the people who get hysterical about others who hesitate, lack confidence in their decision.  They gain confidence when others make the same decision they made.
We see this in many other health areas:
_"What??  You're 75 & you never had a colonoscopy?  What the hell is wrong with you?"
"What??  You're not taking statins?  What the hell is wrong with you?"
"What??  You haven't had a physical in 10 years?"  What the hell is wrong with you?"_


----------



## Shalimar

Hahahaha. I just spit coffee all over the rug. I shall enjoy sharing this with my colleagues first opportunity I get. Very interesting perspective indeed.


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> Becky, nothing wrong with praying all day for a safe and effective vaccine, if that's what you think it takes to get one. (I don't.)  But developing this vaccine and getting it distributed and used requires more than prayer. Taking any medication requires a certain amount of trust in the medical and scientific communities.
> 
> We all have to reach a certain balance between fear of the unknown, and fear of a very much known danger. For those of us in seniorhood, the danger of dying from this disease is pretty high, and even if you don't die from it, it's certainly not something anyone in their right mind would want to get.
> 
> Sadly, this disease was so politicized, at least in this country, that many have allowed that to sway their thinking on the subject. We all have to clear our minds from group thinking, us vs. them, and just pay attention to the numbers. How many people have died from it?  Is the curve continuing to go up, or is it flattening?  And when the vaccine is finally in use, how many have died or gotten seriously ill from taking it?  This is just plain old common sense.
> 
> When they came out with a new pneumonia vaccine, and a better vaccine against shingles, my doctor recommended both, and I immediately got them. (No side effects from either.)  I didn't embark on a comprehensive study of these vaccines, I had no idea how long either of them had been in use, how good the testing methods were, what the statistics were about side effects and possible illness and death, whether anyone had grown two heads, whatever. I just took the vaccines, trusting that my doctor knows what he is talking about.
> 
> Why all this hoopla about this one vaccine?  Why all the denial (until pretty recently) about the seriousness of this disease?  I have never seen the public, or at least a substantial portion of it, fighting so hard against its own interests. Though of course, the more people that step back and wait, afraid to be in the front lines of receiving the vaccine, the easier it will be for the rest of us to get access to a life-saving medication, and return to normal life.


"Though of course, the more people that step back and wait, afraid to be in the front lines of receiving the vaccine, the easier it will be for the rest of us to get access to a life-saving medication, and return to normal life."

Well there you go then, good for you, you shouldn't have a problem with those who wish to wait.


----------



## AnnieA

StarSong said:


> When would you expect that to be, Annie?


Probably as soon as the general population starts getting them. Since the FDA Accelerated Approval is provisional, manufacturers are still required to submit formal Stage IV data to prove real world efficacy. I would think that data collection would have to start immediately at roll out in order to monitor how long the antibodies protect, side effects in previously unstudied groups such as the elderly, whether there's antibody dependent enhancement (not! a good thing) upon subsequent exposure to the virus ...lots of unknowns.


----------



## Sunny

Becky1951 said:


> "Though of course, the more people that step back and wait, afraid to be in the front lines of receiving the vaccine, the easier it will be for the rest of us to get access to a life-saving medication, and return to normal life."
> 
> Well there you go then, good for you, you shouldn't have a problem with those who wish to wait.


I have absolutely no problem with those who wish to ignore what medical science tells them, and stubbornly put themselves in harm's way.  It's no skin off my nose.  But I hate to see people deliberately taking stupid risks.

Sort of the way I feel when I see young people smoking.


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> I have absolutely no problem with those who wish to ignore what medical science tells them, and stubbornly put themselves in harm's way.  It's no skin off my nose.  But I hate to see people deliberately taking stupid risks.
> 
> Sort of the way I feel when I see young people smoking.


Medical science has yet to tell me, or you, that 6 months after getting this vaccine we will definitely not developed some life threatening condition. They can't, they haven't given to enough people and it hasn't been long enough to know for sure how safe it is.

Stop trying to persuade people to you way of thinking by insinuating they are stupid. 

I'm not "ignoring" what is being reported, I'm taking all information into account.


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> Hahahaha. I just spit coffee all over the rug. I shall enjoy sharing this with my colleagues first opportunity I get. Very interesting perspective indeed.


Glad I could help!


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> I have absolutely no problem with those who wish to ignore what medical science tells them, and stubbornly put themselves in harm's way.  It's no skin off my nose.  But I hate to see people deliberately taking stupid risks.
> 
> Sort of the way I feel when I see young people smoking.


To alleviate your stress, just focus on the increased availability of that life-saving vaccine for everyone else.
And appreciate the extreme generosity of those who don't get the vaccine.


----------



## Sunny

That has already occurred to several of us, Win.  I do appreciate the extreme generosity of those who are putting themselves in harm's way in order to make the vaccine available to the rest of us. 

Becky, stop trying to tell me what I may or may not say on this forum. If I think a risk is stupid, I will say it. Example:  there is an item in another thread about a party that was shut down in Chicago, attended by over 300 people.  I also read about a similar wedding that was secretively held in Brooklyn, with a huge crowd packed into the hall.  Can you come up with a better word than "stupid?"


----------



## Becky1951

Sunny said:


> That has already occurred to several of us, Win.  I do appreciate the extreme generosity of those who are putting themselves in harm's way in order to make the vaccine available to the rest of us.
> 
> Becky, stop trying to tell me what I may or may not say on this forum. If I think a risk is stupid, I will say it. Example:  there is an item in another thread about a party that was shut down in Chicago, attended by over 300 people.  I also read about a similar wedding that was secretively held in Brooklyn, with a huge crowd packed into the hall.  Can you come up with a better word than "stupid?"


I'm the one who posted that article about the party. Of course that's stupid!

But don't imply I'm stupid, or others are stupid wishing to wait a while to get this vaccine, which you clearly implied.


----------



## Sunny

Becky, go back and reread what I said.  It was:

*But I hate to see people deliberately taking stupid risks.*

Saying someone is taking a stupid risk is not the same thing as calling a person "stupid." We all take stupid risks at times, or have in the past. Nobody is calling you stupid. Calm down.


----------



## Capt Lightning

I'm not sure where I heard this joke first, but I believe it was from an American comedian..

Once upon a time a man made a pact with God that if he got into trouble, God would save him.
That winter there was terrible flooding and the water soon reached the front windows of the man's house.
Then along came a small boat and the crew asked if he needed help.  The man refused saying that God would save him.
It didn't take long before the  water reached the top windows of the man's house.
Along came another small boat and the crew asked if he needed help.  The man refused saying that God would save him.
Eventually the man found himself on the roof clinging to the chimney when a helicopter appeared  and the crew asked if he needed help.  The man refused saying that God would save him.

The waters rose and the man drowned.  Later in heaven, he asked God why he hadn't saved him.  God said "What do you mean?  I sent you two boats and a helicopter".

It's up to you whether you take the vaccine or not.  No one says that you have to be 'rescued', but if you do end up in hospital with Covid-19, give a cheery wave to the people in the passing lifeboats.


----------



## Becky1951

What I find odd is that I never ever said I won't take the vaccine. I have stated repeatedly, "I won't take it until its proven safe."

So I'm sure my boat will come along as soon as those other boats have proven they have no leaks.


----------



## Liberty

I believe it is safe and will take it first chance we get ...if you are waiting for a covid vaccine that never gives you any side effects, its called a "placebo"...lol.


----------



## StarSong

Becky1951 said:


> What I find odd is that I never ever said I won't take the vaccine. I have stated repeatedly, "I won't take it until its proven safe."
> 
> So I'm sure my boat will come along as soon as those other boats have proven they have no leaks.


*I completely understand what you've been saying, Becky.  *
Yes, I'm glad that vaccines are going to be available very soon.  However, I'm equally glad to not qualify for an early vaccine because I'd probably decline it.   

By the time my relatively low risk group would be eligible (65-70 with no underlying health issues and not overweight), there should be enough additional information and statistics for me to feel comfortable with my decision.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> What I find odd is that I never ever said I won't take the vaccine. I have stated repeatedly, "I won't take it until its proven safe."
> 
> So I'm sure my boat will come along as soon as those other boats have proven they have no leaks.


HAHA.  You are shaking people's little bit of confidence they have by not being a sheep.  People gain confidence from others who make the same choice they do.


----------



## Shalimar

*Baaaad Baaad. Lol  *


----------



## StarSong

win231 said:


> HAHA.  You are shaking people's little bit of confidence they have by not being a sheep.  People gain confidence from others who make the same choice they do.


People who think they aren't sheep are usually just following a different shepherd.


----------



## Becky1951

Liberty said:


> I believe it is safe and will take it first chance we get ...if you are waiting for a covid vaccine that never gives you any side effects, its called a "placebo"...lol.


I have no problem with the side effects that are currently stated. 

It's the long term so far unknown side effects. The last stage of testing the vaccine is being skipped and it's being released. I understand the reason why, pandemic. 

I will wait and see if there are any serious effects a few months after it's been given to others. 

So, LOL not "placebo".


----------



## Aneeda72

MickaC said:


> COVID 19 VACCINES
> Lists are being made in Canada.
> #1   All who are in the Health positions.......which is the most important and should be.
> After those the list will continue.
> I have no strong issues with the totem pole from there.
> But.....
> I am somewhat unhappy about a certain type of population that is being placed very high on this pole.......being......IMO.
> 
> As quite often through my years......have found myself " between a rock and a hard place "
> Because being under 65......have no underlying health issues, unless depression falls in to that place......which i doubt......and pretty much in good health......other than depression, osteoporosis, osteoarthritis.
> I very seldom get sick with anything.
> 
> I bailed on the flu shot.....have never had one.....i'll just continue with that for now......i thought maybe maybe the flu clinic was a good place to pick up a bug.
> 
> Maybe not being some of the ones in the beginning for the vaccine.......i can take in all the......." what's......if's......but's and, and's. "
> 
> I WISH the whole WORLD, GOOD LUCK, in what's to come.


I just got the first shot of the new shingles shot.  Doc said I’d get a sore arm, I can barely lift it.  She said I’d be sick for up to 4 days with symptoms that were the same as Covid.  So I asked her, how will I know it’s not Covid.  Her reply, if you are sicker than 4 days get tested .

I get a second shingles shot in 3 months.  I got the flu vaccine. But I am running hot and cold on the Covid vaccine.  I hate side effects as does everyone.


----------



## Aneeda72

Sunny said:


> The trouble is, if vaccine production is being politicized, so is _anti-vaccine_ propaganda. This disease has become politicized to an extent that I have never heard of, with any other disease. And political propaganda is shameless. It will appropriate any subject it thinks it can use to advance its objectives.
> 
> For those who are so leery about this vaccine, I wonder:  were you that cautious and fearful about the vaccines for any other disease? If you got a deep puncture wound from a rusty nail, before you got a tetanus shot in the ER, would you consult everybody you know on the subject?
> 
> Last year, my doctor recommended a new type of pneumonia vaccine that is apparently much more effective than the old ones. I got the shot immediately, as I trust his judgement.
> 
> This year, it was the new type of shingles vaccine, Shingrix. It requires two shots, a few months apart. Again, I followed his advice.  No side effects from any of those shots.
> 
> So, when the time comes that the Covid vaccine is available, if my doctor recommends getting it, should I be dancing around all over the place, studying what all the news media have to say about it, making sure I have an adequate mix of conservative vs. liberal media, consulting with the politicians I am most in tune with, seeing what my friends on social media (like this one) have to say .....
> 
> or, just get the damn vaccine, as I would against any other disease that probably has me in its crosshairs?


Well, you might be fine from the new shingles shot, me, not so much.


----------



## Aneeda72

fmdog44 said:


> I wonder what the average length of time it takes for vaccines to be OK'd. Anyone know?


It was ok in England already.


----------



## Pepper

Capt Lightning said:


> I'm not sure where I heard this joke first, but I believe it was from an American comedian..


Well, he's kind of a comedian, but also a pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Joel Osteen.  He tells that joke.


----------



## Aunt Marg

Aneeda72 said:


> I just got the first shot of the new shingles shot.  Doc said I’d get a sore arm, I can barely lift it.  She said I’d be sick for up to 4 days with symptoms that were the same as Covid.  So I asked her, how will I know it’s not Covid.  Her reply, if you are sicker than 4 days get tested .
> 
> I get a second shingles shot in 3 months.  I got the flu vaccine. But I am running hot and cold on the Covid vaccine.  I hate side effects as does everyone.


Dear husbands and my arms were sore for the better part of a week after each injection. 

I got sick with flu-like symptoms after my first injection, hubby remained fine, and on the second injection dear husband got sick with flu-like symptoms.


----------



## Aneeda72

ProTruckDriver said:


> My Oncologist told me "Do Not Get It". With Leukemia (CLL) and Agammaglobulinemia he told me it will be a few years before I can get it. Looks like I'll be wearing a face mask when I go out and staying home for a long time. I do get the seasonal Flu shot every year. I'll sit back and watch the effects the vaccine has on other people for the next few years. Hopefully all will go well.


I’ll have to try and ask my oncologist, I see him next week.  I have MDS.


----------



## win231

Liberty said:


> Recent article from Dr. Fauci on the vaccine safety:
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...you-should-not-fear-covid-vaccine/6353614002/


Just imagine what would happen if Dr. Fauci expressed ANY negative concerns about the covid vaccine.


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> Becky, go back and reread what I said.  It was:
> 
> *But I hate to see people deliberately taking stupid risks.*
> 
> Saying someone is taking a stupid risk is not the same thing as calling a person "stupid." We all take stupid risks at times, or have in the past. Nobody is calling you stupid. Calm down.


No....you're not calling a person stupid.  You're just implying it.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> No....you're not calling a person stupid.  You're just implying it.


Now, now, be nice


----------



## StarSong

Pepper said:


> Well, he's kind of a comedian, but also a pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Joel Osteen.  He tells that joke.


I've heard variations on that joke since I was in my teens - and it probably wasn't new then.   

It's a great instructional joke regardless of who came up with it.


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> That has already occurred to several of us, Win.  I do appreciate the extreme generosity of those who are putting themselves in harm's way in order to make the vaccine available to the rest of us.
> 
> Becky, stop trying to tell me what I may or may not say on this forum. If I think a risk is stupid, I will say it. Example:  there is an item in another thread about a party that was shut down in Chicago, attended by over 300 people.  I also read about a similar wedding that was secretively held in Brooklyn, with a huge crowd packed into the hall.  Can you come up with a better word than "stupid?"


Then you have to respect me for the hero I am.


----------



## Jules

My arm was definitely sore after the first shingles shot, not after the second.  DH had no issues. Our friends both had it at another pharmacy and were quite ill for several days.


----------



## Sunny

Jules, all these vaccines have different reactions from all of us. In very rare cases, people do get seriously ill. It's a calculated risk. I'd rather take that chance than have a serious risk of getting a terrible, possibly fatal, disease.


----------



## Aunt Marg

win231 said:


> Just imagine what would happen if Dr. Fauci expressed ANY negative concerns about the covid vaccine.


Good point.

I suspect Fauci, has lost much of his original traction with the audience.


----------



## gennie

I know I am a practicing paranoid  but I don't have much faith in Big Pharma being transparent about adverse reactions and after affects in the case of COVID vaccines.

Most of these are learned about during tests and trials that are done *before* a drug is released for general use.  Records are kept and accurate results are publicized by law.

Because it is so new, long-term tests and trials of Covid vaccine will be done with the general public acting as guiana pig. 

Will there be accurate records kept and factual information publicized or will knowledge about results be distributed by rumor and innuendo as was done prior to legislative action requiring disclosure?

I'm old as dirt so I remember those times.


----------



## Aneeda72

gennie said:


> I know I am a practicing paranoid  but I don't have much faith in Big Pharma being transparent about adverse reactions and after affects in the case of COVID vaccines.
> 
> Most of these are learned about during tests and trials that are done *before* a drug is released for general use.  Records are kept and accurate results are publicized by law.
> 
> Because it is so new, long-term tests and trials of Covid vaccine will be done with the general public acting as guiana pig.
> 
> Will there be accurate records kept and factual information publicized or will knowledge about results be distributed by rumor and innuendo as was done prior to legislative action requiring disclosure?
> 
> I'm old as dirt so I remember those times.


Well, at our age how much more time do you think we have?  How much more time should we want?  I could go another couple of years or die in an hour do to my medical issues.  I am not being dramatic, with a brain aneurysm on the carotid artery it is a real possibility

So do I stay in my house, or reclaim a bit of life by taking the vaccine?  It always comes down to a choice.  I want to go and see my daughter, she wants me to see her house.  I want to see my great granddaughter, who will soon be 3.  I want to see my SIL. 

I should see mother before she dies, mean old thing that she is.  Oh, brother and SIL as we all struggle to stay alive even without the virus complication.  So, while I am on the fence because of possible side effects (not long term side effects, , my term is not going to be long) I am taking the vaccine (edited I put virus, not taking virus), seeing the relatives and then; if GOD calls I am good to go.


----------



## gennie

Aneeda, I feel the same.   At my age, I feel it  is wasted unless there is an overabundance of the vaccine and I'm pretty sure I'll be history before that comes about.

My concern about the validity of information was not for myself.  It is for the rest of the world and even though I won't be a part of it for many more years, I still have concern for others.


----------



## Aneeda72

gennie said:


> Aneeda, I feel the same.   At my age, I feel it  is wasted unless there is an overabundance of the vaccine and I'm pretty sure I'll be history before that comes about.
> 
> My concern about the validity of information was not for myself.  It is for the rest of the world and even though I won't be a part of it for many more years, I still have concern for others.


I actually meant to say I am taking the vaccine, I miswrote.  I think there will be an overabundance of vaccine as a lot of people will not take it at first for a variety of reasons.  But I want to see my family so it’s worth the risk to me.


----------



## Sunny

Aunt Marg said:


> Good point.
> 
> I suspect Fauci, has lost much of his original traction with the audience.


Why?


----------



## Aunt Marg

Sunny said:


> Why?


I think as people are learning more and more about the virus and observing more and more inconsistencies related to the virus, in addition to reports surrounding medical advice, and, efforts being made to contain it, slow it, and eradicate it, more and more deaf-ears are tuning-out the likes of Fauci, and others.

I for one don't care what Fauci, has to say, and I pay no attention to him or his reports.


----------



## Shalimar

For myself, (as do my colleagues,) I trust Dr. Fauci. I also trust our Provincial Health Officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry. I am more than satisfied with both their credentials, and their character. I am well aware of the disastrous toll of Covid. I am saying far too many goodbyes via telephone. Four

vets this week, and counting. The most recent, a 24 year old mother. Totally unexpected. At this juncture, our best hope is a vaccine, the sooner the better. During this time of plague, survival is a major gamble. I cast my vote for the experts. Imperfect or otherwise, science will see us through this crucial and momentous step toward protecting our species from the worst health crisis in a century.


----------



## Pepper

I heard from "my" hospital yesterday.  Seems I made their list of who they want to vaccinate among the first, after the essentials, I guess.  I want to wait.  I will wait, won't be talked into it.


----------



## StarSong

Shalimar said:


> For myself, (as do my colleagues,)* I trust Dr. Fauci. I also trust our Provincial Health Officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry. I am more than satisfied with both their credentials, and their character.*
> 
> I am well aware of the disastrous toll of Covid. I am saying far too many goodbyes via telephone. Four vets this week, and counting. The most recent, a 24 year old mother. Totally unexpected. At this juncture, our best hope is a vaccine, the sooner the better.* During this time of plague, survival is a major gamble. I cast my vote for the experts. Imperfect or otherwise, science will see us through this crucial and momentous step toward protecting our species from the worst health crisis in a century.*


Beautifully said.  So perfectly expressed that I keep rereading the portion that I put in bold text because it succinctly explains my position.

I trust science.  Then again, my father was a scientist who taught us that, in science, one of the greatest follies is remaining emotionally attached to hypotheses or conclusions.  True scientists let go of flawed expectations, and keep moving as evidence mounts and leads them onward.     

Did Fauci get it right in the very beginning?  He did not.  But he's publicly acknowledged every misstep, explained how the data led him and others there, and revised his recommendations as the data came in. More than that I cannot ask.


----------



## Aneeda72

Pepper said:


> I heard from "my" hospital yesterday.  Seems I made their list of who they want to vaccinate among the first, after the essentials, I guess.  I want to wait.  I will wait, won't be talked into it.


I thought about this before replying.  No, they cannot force you to take it.  But there could be repercussions from mild to severe.  You could be fired.  Your Health insurance could refuse to pay benefits if you get Covid and need treatment.  I am sure there could be other issues, but I think these would be the top two.

They have started giving the vaccine in UK and will give it in Wales soon.  We should know more about side effects soon.  But I would rethink your position.  IMO.  But, hey, it’s your decision so do what you want.


----------



## debodun

Will the vaccine be any benefit to those that have already contracted COVID?


----------



## Aneeda72

debodun said:


> Will the vaccine be any benefit to those that have already contracted COVID?


I am sure it will as you can re-catch it, however, those individuals will be the last to get the vaccine, I think.  They already have some protection for a while.


----------



## Pepper

Aneeda72 said:


> You could be fired.  Your Health insurance could refuse to pay benefits if you get Covid and need treatment.
> 
> They have started giving the vaccine in UK and will give it in Wales soon.  We should know more about side effects soon.  *But I would rethink your position.  IMO.  But, hey, it’s your decision so do what you want.*


Fired?  What gave you that impression?  I haven't worked for 19 years.  Thanks (((Aneeda))).  I am rethinking my position.

Fired?     Thanks, I liked that.

eta:  no private insurance, no one to threaten me!


----------



## win231

I expect we'll hear the same B.S. we hear about the flu shot.
When people start asking why so many people get Covid after getting the vaccine, they'll say,_ "Well....even if the vaccine doesn't prevent Covid, your illness will be shorter."_


----------



## Ladybj

Treacle said:


> What if people are taking other prescription drugs e.g blood pressure tablets. Would the vaccines interfere with those tablets? I was under the impression that the trials were carried out on 'healthy' individuals. Just a thought


Great thought!!!


----------



## Ladybj

I remember getting the flu shot for the first time years ago (over 20 years) and got VERY sick.  I vowed never to take it again.  I would not get the COVID vaccine.  I read you have to get 2 injections.  The first one you may feel very sick (which means it's working) and you have to take the second injection... REALLY!!!!  I will pass.  Sadly, I feel people in the healthcare and education fields may be required to take it.


----------



## Ladybj

Aunt Marg said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> My guess is, testing of subjects with an array of different medications in them was not included in the study.
> 
> My way of thinking is, and from the standpoint of scientists behind the drug, _let's get this thing developed and out NOW, and we'll worry about the small stuff (side-effects) later._


Pretty much sums it up!!!


----------



## JimBob1952

StarSong said:


> Beautifully said.  So perfectly expressed that I keep rereading the portion that I put in bold text because it succinctly explains my position.
> 
> I trust science.  Then again, my father was a scientist who taught us that, in science, one of the greatest follies is remaining emotionally attached to hypotheses or conclusions.  True scientists let go of flawed expectations, and keep moving as evidence mounts and leads them onward.
> 
> Did Fauci get it right in the very beginning?  He did not.  But he's publicly acknowledged every misstep, explained how the data led him and others there, and revised his recommendations as the data came in. More than that I cannot ask.



No one's perfect.  People like and trust Dr. Fauci because he's doing his best.  I know someone who went to med school with him who says that he is a very sincere, honest person.  I also like Scott Gottlieb.  Although he's on the Pfizer board he says what he thinks.


----------



## win231

Mr. Ed said:


> Not meaning to sound political, but why are world leaders so invested in making certain everyone gets vaccinated? There is something much bigger at play here.


Nice to read a thinking man's post.


----------



## win231

StarSong said:


> Why?  So that this virus can be stopped, that's why.  Or do people want to live like this for several more years until herd immunity kicks in or the virus morphs into a less dangerous version.


That is likely the tactic to motivate sheeple into going for the vaccine_ now,_ so they don't think about the risk.  Destroy the economy, make everyone miserable & frustrated &  create fear & desperation so people believe they have to get the vaccinated to save the world.

"Sheeple:"  People compared to sheep in being docile, foolish, or easily led.


----------



## Sunny

Aunt Marg said:


> I think as people are learning more and more about the virus and observing more and more inconsistencies related to the virus, in addition to reports surrounding medical advice, and, efforts being made to contain it, slow it, and eradicate it, more and more deaf-ears are tuning-out the likes of Fauci, and others.
> 
> I for one don't care what Fauci, has to say, and I pay no attention to him or his reports.



Most people trust Dr. Fauci implicitly. He is as close to a hero as we have in fighting this horrific disease. Of course, as some of us have repeated here ad nauseum, science doesn't come up with divinely ordained absolute truths. There are always inconsistencies, and our ideas change and evolve as we learn more and more about the subject. Considering how new this virus is, and how deadly, I think our scientific researchers, and particularly Dr. Fauci, have done an incredible job.


----------



## Pepper

win231 said:


> That is likely the tactic to motivate sheeple into going for the vaccine_ now,_ so they don't think about the risk.  Destroy the economy, make everyone miserable & frustrated &  create fear & desperation so people believe they have to get the vaccinated to save the world.
> 
> "Sheeple:"  People compared to sheep in being docile, foolish, or easily led.


Sheeple.  That word had it's day and it's day is long over.  Time to be creative.


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> Most people trust Dr. Fauci implicitly. He is as close to a hero as we have in fighting this horrific disease. Of course, as some of us have repeated here ad nauseum, science doesn't come up with divinely ordained absolute truths. There are always inconsistencies, and our ideas change and evolve as we learn more and more about the subject. Considering how new this virus is, and how deadly, I think our scientific researchers, and particularly Dr. Fauci, have done an incredible job.


_"*Most* people trust Dr. Fauci?"  _Quite a lengthy survey you must have completed!  
The power of wishful thinking........


----------



## Irwin

Fauci screwed up in the beginning by not telling everyone to wear facemasks. He said he didn't call for the public to wear PPE because he didn't want to create shortages in hospitals, which doesn't make any sense because as soon as they told the public that facemasks help prevent the spread of the virus, people started making masks or just wearing bandanas or scarves around their faces. 

So, had he promoted the wearing of facemasks  in the beginning, fewer people would have contracted the virus, and there wouldn't have been as high a demand for PPE in hospitals. It could have made a difference.

Other than that, Fauci's been reliable.


----------



## Chrise

*I had the polio vaccine when a child,  took a chance with eye surgery because did not what to die blind, now just do not want to get any worse, so will get the vaccine, if things go bad so be it...*


----------



## Fiona

StarSong said:


> It sounds like the side effects are pretty common and will sideline a good percentage of recipients for 1-3 days.


I, for one, am ready and willing to be sidelined for 1-3 days, if it comes to that. I will line up for a COVID vaccine as soon as it's available for seniors. I am a retired physician, I've been following the medical literature about the development and testing of the various vaccines, and I feel secure about taking the risk. I want to do my part to help bring this brutal pandemic to an end.


----------



## JimBob1952

win231 said:


> That is likely the tactic to motivate sheeple into going for the vaccine_ now,_ so they don't think about the risk.  Destroy the economy, make everyone miserable & frustrated &  create fear & desperation so people believe they have to get the vaccinated to save the world.
> 
> "Sheeple:"  People compared to sheep in being docile, foolish, or easily led.




Who exactly is it who wants these terrible things to happen?  Who is this mysterious "they?"


----------



## Pepper

JimBob1952 said:


> Who exactly is it who wants these terrible things to happen?  Who is this mysterious "they?"


There are no conspiracies.  Everything has been crystal clear for those who pay attention.


----------



## JimBob1952

Pepper said:


> There are no conspiracies.  Everything has been crystal clear for those who pay attention.



I tend to think people aren't smart enough to pull off conspiracies.  And their natural tendency to brag would tip off any conspiracy anyway.  

On the other hand, there are the Stonecutters...


----------



## StarSong

Once three people know something, it's only a matter of time before the cat's out of the bag.  Heck, most of the time ONE PERSON can't keep their mouths closed, forget dozens or hundreds maintaining widespread conspiracies.


----------



## Pepper

StarSong said:


> Once three people know something, it's only a matter of time before the cat's out of the bag.  Heck, most of the time ONE PERSON can't keep their mouths closed, forget dozens or hundreds maintaining widespread conspiracies.


That's why I don't think there are UFO's that are alien.  No one could shut up.


----------



## Chrise

*Because I traveled a lot as a kid, been vaccinated for everything except swine flu and H1 whatever., Not a sheep situation,  just being reasonable for myself...Do it or not it's a personal choice and not subject to to anyone's judgment, expert or not...Wishing all the very best...vaccinated or not...Hugs*


----------



## Butterfly

Sunny said:


> Jules, all these vaccines have different reactions from all of us. In very rare cases, people do get seriously ill. It's a calculated risk. I'd rather take that chance than have a serious risk of getting a terrible, possibly fatal, disease.


My feelings exactly.  People forget that the side effects of getting covid very realistically include death (a pretty serious side effect in my book), not to mention lifelong effects from damage to lungs and/or other organs.  At my age, getting covid would probably be a death sentence, so I'll gladly take the vaccine, thank you.

Anybody who is taking any prescription medication should take a hard look at the possible side effects from their medication.  Yet most of us take it anyway.   I don't see much difference between that and taking the vaccine.   My sister takes a medication that could kill her if the levels get out of whack and she has to have her levels monitored.  But, if she doesn't take it she will almost surely die.  So, after thinking about the odds, she takes it.


----------



## Butterfly

StarSong said:


> Beautifully said.  So perfectly expressed that I keep rereading the portion that I put in bold text because it succinctly explains my position.
> 
> I trust science.  Then again, my father was a scientist who taught us that, in science, one of the greatest follies is remaining emotionally attached to hypotheses or conclusions.  True scientists let go of flawed expectations, and keep moving as evidence mounts and leads them onward.
> 
> Did Fauci get it right in the very beginning?  He did not.  But he's publicly acknowledged every misstep, explained how the data led him and others there, and revised his recommendations as the data came in. More than that I cannot ask.


well said, Star.


----------



## Butterfly

Sunny said:


> Most people trust Dr. Fauci implicitly. He is as close to a hero as we have in fighting this horrific disease. Of course, as some of us have repeated here ad nauseum, science doesn't come up with divinely ordained absolute truths. There are always inconsistencies, and our ideas change and evolve as we learn more and more about the subject. Considering how new this virus is, and how deadly, I think our scientific researchers, and particularly Dr. Fauci, have done an incredible job.


I strongly agree!


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> _"*Most* people trust Dr. Fauci?"  _Quite a lengthy survey you must have completed!
> The power of wishful thinking........


  Ohhhh, the power of paranoia...


----------



## Aneeda72

Pepper said:


> Fired?  What gave you that impression?  I haven't worked for 19 years.  Thanks (((Aneeda))).  I am rethinking my position.
> 
> Fired?     Thanks, I liked that.
> 
> eta:  no private insurance, no one to threaten me!


I thought you worked


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> That is likely the tactic to motivate sheeple into going for the vaccine_ now,_ so they don't think about the risk.  Destroy the economy, make everyone miserable & frustrated &  create fear & desperation so people believe they have to get the vaccinated to save the world.
> 
> "Sheeple:"  People compared to sheep in being docile, foolish, or easily led.


BAAA, BAAA, BAAA, chow down, chow down, chow down, BAAD, BAAD, BAAD


----------



## Shalimar

So, since some are ostensibly assigning animal characteristics to those who want to embrace the vaccine, and the sobriquet is “sheeple,” what would be a good name for those individuals not willing to get the shot? I eagerly await member’s replies


----------



## Aneeda72

Irwin said:


> Fauci screwed up in the beginning by not telling everyone to wear facemasks. He said he didn't call for the public to wear PPE because he didn't want to create shortages in hospitals, which doesn't make any sense because as soon as they told the public that facemasks help prevent the spread of the virus, people started making masks or just wearing bandanas or scarves around their faces.
> 
> So, had he promoted the wearing of facemasks  in the beginning, fewer people would have contracted the virus, and there wouldn't have been as high a demand for PPE in hospitals. It could have made a difference.
> 
> Other than that, Fauci's been reliable.


Cause in the beginning, before masks were mandated by mayors and governors, people wore masks-not .  Cause after mayors and governors mandated wearing masks people wore masks-not.  Faulk didn’t screw up; Americans, as usual, screwed up.

Cause once stores started putting an employee or an off duty cop on the doors of their stores people started wearing masks into the store-YES THIS WORKED.  But Americans, lots of Americans still refuse to wear mask-political rallies, bars, eat in establishments, private parties, and on and on and on.

Americans can be dumber than dirt as individuals.  Can’t blame Fauci for that!


----------



## Kathleen’s Place

I don’t know. I think if I lived in a large city, I probably would. Here in rural America, I’m not so sure.  If it truly is life saving then I would rather a young person have my shot. I guess when it comes down to it, I believe that our fate is sealed the moment we are born, and no amount of intervention is going to change whatever that.


----------



## Kathleen’s Place

Shalimar said:


> So, since some are ostensibly assigning animal characteristics to those who want to embrace the vaccine, and the sobriquet is “sheeple,” what would be a good name for those individuals not willing to get the shot? I eagerly await member’s replies


Bulls? . I think it’s more than fine if people want to have the vaccine and don’t understand why anyone would feel otherwise.  I also think it’s fine if they don’t want to.


----------



## Lakeland living

Depending on the vaccine, I was told by a Dr. long ago it took a few years to get one close to 97%.
 Ontario premier has said there will be something to ID those that take the vaccine, they would be allowed to attend things, dinner out, theater . Anyone else see something in that statement??
https://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=opera2&p=Premier+Ford+,+vaccine+proof


----------



## Aneeda72

Lakeland living said:


> Depending on the vaccine, I was told by a Dr. long ago it took a few years to get one close to 97%.
> Ontario premier has said there will be something to ID those that take the vaccine, they would be allowed to attend things, dinner out, theater . Anyone else see something in that statement??
> https://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=opera2&p=Premier+Ford+,+vaccine+proof


I see traveling plus the rest in the statement, although I will never attend an indoor theater again, I might, once I have the vaccine eat at a restaurant that observes social distance rules.  I think a movie or a play or a concert would be too big a risk with the amount of people who do not get vaccinated.

I can imagine any vaccination card could be and will be forged.


----------



## Lakeland living

When I read things like this....I pay attention check it out
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45815919


----------



## Aneeda72

Lakeland living said:


> When I read things like this....I pay attention check it out
> https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45815919


How funny, I just made some comment to Pepper (who I thought was working) that things like this would happen if people did not take vaccines.


----------



## Sunny

Shalimar said:


> So, since some are ostensibly assigning animal characteristics to those who want to embrace the vaccine, and the sobriquet is “sheeple,” what would be a good name for those individuals not willing to get the shot? I eagerly await member’s replies



That's easy, Shalimar. Mules, donkeys, asses?

(Well, maybe not donkeys, as that has a political connotation.)


----------



## Becky1951

Wow! So sad, now we're into name calling..

And for what? The division of those who wish to and those who wish to wait to get the Covid vaccine.

Shameful.


----------



## Shalimar

Becky1951 said:


> Wow! So sad, now we're into name calling..
> 
> And for what? The division of those who wish to and those who wish to wait to get the Covid vaccine.
> 
> Shameful.


Becky, I am saddened you feel this way. It was merely an attempt on my part to lighten up the differences between how some of us view the current vaccine situation. I responded to the original sheeple post in a jocular manner. Perhaps Canadian humour does not always translate well in other countries?


----------



## Becky1951

Shalimar said:


> Becky, I am saddened you feel this way. It was merely an attempt on my part to lighten up the differences between how some of us view the current vaccine situation. I responded to the original sheeple post in a jocular manner. Perhaps Canadian humour does not always translate well in other countries?


It started with wins use of the word "sheeple", to describe basically those who follow like sheep.

I certainly don't like the word, but do like some of wins posts so I use the "Like" emoji.

I understood your post as being humorous. But as you can see it opens up opportunity to call others names, such as asses.

I think it's sad that we have resorted to name calling.

I guess I'm one of the "asses" since I prefer to wait awhile to take the vaccine. I don't understand how being cautious is being an ass, or having a different view from someone else on this subject is being an ass.

Or those who plan on taking it asap are being called sheeple.


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> So, since some are ostensibly assigning animal characteristics to those who want to embrace the vaccine, and the sobriquet is “sheeple,” what would be a good name for those individuals not willing to get the shot? I eagerly await member’s replies


I've heard people say cats are independent.


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> Wow! So sad, now we're into name calling..
> 
> And for what? The division of those who wish to and those who wish to wait to get the Covid vaccine.
> 
> Shameful.


I’ve been called many a name by members of the forum, glad you have not, I just sprinkle a little salt on those name, take a taste, and respond, within the forum rules, to the bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> I've heard people say cats are independent.


Well, mean feral cats are very independent, but like everyone else they are willing to feed at the trough


----------



## debodun

Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?


----------



## Shalimar

debodun said:


> Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?


   Seems rather far fetched to me.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> I see traveling plus the rest in the statement, although I will never attend an indoor theater again, I might, once I have the vaccine eat at a restaurant that observes social distance rules.  I think a movie or a play or a concert would be too big a risk with the amount of people who do not get vaccinated.
> 
> I can imagine any vaccination card could be and will be forged.


Uh....if the vaccine protected you, you couldn't get Covid, even if you spent the night in the same bed as someone, so....why would you be concerned about social distancing?


----------



## StarSong

Even feral cats are creatures of habit and confirmation bias.  

Hmmm... I found food here yesterday, wonder if there'll be some here today isn't much different from, "This type of news confirms what I already believe about vaccines (or whatever) so I'll keep looking here." 

Other than the handful of people on this planet who are doing independent, original lab studies on this virus and vaccines, we're all following a shepherd - or a few of them.  (And even those scientists are following earlier shepherds who blazed the trail.)


----------



## win231

debodun said:


> Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?


In case you get lost & end up at the shelter, they can scan you & return you to your original owner instead of being put down after 14 days.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> It started with wins use of the word "sheeple", to describe basically those who follow like sheep.
> 
> I certainly don't like the word, but do like some of wins posts so I use the "Like" emoji.
> 
> I understood your post as being humorous. But as you can see it opens up opportunity to call others names, such as asses.
> 
> I think it's sad that we have resorted to name calling.
> 
> I guess I'm one of the "asses" since I prefer to wait awhile to take the vaccine. I don't understand how being cautious is being an ass, or having a different view from someone else on this subject is being an ass.
> 
> Or those who plan on taking it asap are being called sheeple.


Whatdayamean ya like SOME of my posts?  They're ALL spectacular!!


----------



## StarSong

debodun said:


> Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?





Shalimar said:


> Seems rather far fetched to me.


Sounds like aluminum foil hat time to me.   An injected tracking device?  Why would anyone bother?  

99% of us voluntarily carry tracking devices called cell phones.  The rest of us can be easily tracked via our use of credit card, loyalty cards at grocers, pharmacy records, checks, internet use and our ISP information, etc.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Uh....if the vaccine protected you, you couldn't get Covid, even if you spent the night in the same bed as someone, so....why would you be concerned about social distancing?


It’s on 70 to 95 perfect effective.  I’ve had the flu shot and got the flu.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> It’s on 70 to 95 perfect effective.  I’ve had the flu shot and got the flu.


Yes many have.  And....the flu vaccine has been around for many years - studied, researched, tested.  Unlike the Covid vaccine.


----------



## StarSong

One cannot get the flu from a flu vaccine.  Period.  There is no live flu in the vaccine.  Look it up.


----------



## Lakeland living

debodun said:


> Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?


They use needles in dogs and cats with ID micro chips and have done that for years now.


----------



## win231

StarSong said:


> One cannot get the flu from a flu vaccine.  Period.  There is no live flu in the vaccine.  Look it up.


That doesn't mean it's effective.  That also doesn't mean it can't make one sick enough to avoid it in the future.


----------



## Aneeda72

StarSong said:


> One cannot get the flu from a flu vaccine.  Period.  There is no live flu in the vaccine.  Look it up.


I did NOT say I got the flu from the vaccine.  The flu vaccine is 70 percent against the flu. 

I said I got the flu shot.  Then I got the flu.  That means the flu shot i got was not effective and I fell into the 30 percent category of people who can get the flu with a flu shot. Period.  I don’t need to “look it up”.


----------



## debodun

It is only good until the virus mutates - then they will have to develop another vaccine.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> I did NOT say I got the flu from the vaccine.  The flu vaccine is 70 percent against the flu.
> 
> I said I got the flu shot.  Then I got the flu.  That means the flu shot i got was not effective and I fell into the 30 percent category of people who can get the flu with a flu shot. Period.  I don’t need to “look it up”.


The nerve!  How dare you even _*hin*_*t* that a shot or drug didn't work!!!


----------



## win231

debodun said:


> It is only good until the virus mutates - then they will have to develop another vaccine.


I hate mutations.  My brother is a mutation.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> The nerve!  How dare you even _*hin*_*t* that a shot or drug didn't work!!!


One year they gave every one a shot for either the swine or bird flu, can not remember, everyone who gets a shot, got one.  Only it was a different flu that hit and the shot was totally useles.  It’s always a crap shoot.


----------



## Sunny

debodun said:


> It is only good until the virus mutates - then they will have to develop another vaccine.


That's true of every vaccine.


----------



## StarSong

Aneeda72 said:


> I did NOT say I got the flu from the vaccine.  The flu vaccine is 70 percent against the flu.
> 
> I said I got the flu shot.  Then I got the flu.  That means the flu shot i got was not effective and I fell into the 30 percent category of people who can get the flu with a flu shot. Period.  I don’t need to “look it up”.


I know you didn't say that, Aneeda. I was responding to Win.


----------



## Furryanimal

Two health workers in Britain have suffered anaphylactic shock after receiving the first dose of the vaccine,
Now anyone who suffers from food allergies or has ever experienced an adverse reaction to a medication or vaccine is being advised against having it.
You would think they might have been aware of this before they started vaccinating.
So this advice means I no longer have to think about if I will have it.I can’t have it.


----------



## Becky1951

Furryanimal said:


> Two health workers in Britain have suffered anaphylactic shock after receiving the first dose of the vaccine,
> Now anyone who suffers from food allergies or has ever experienced an adverse reaction to a medication or vaccine is being advised against having it.
> You would think they might have been aware of this before they started vaccinating.
> So this advice means I no longer have to think about if I will have it.I can’t have it.


This is just the beginning.
Give it 60 days and I'm sure there will be more problems such as, people on certain medications having severe and hopefully not deadly reactions..we are now the Guinea Pigs.


----------



## Irwin

Being a "free thinker" used to mean free from the confines of society. Now it seems to mean free from facts and logic.


----------



## Mr. Ed

Butterfly said:


> I doubt "they" will be able to do all that sanctioning practically or legally (social gatherings? churches, pharmacies?  How's that gonna work?)  What "they" can and doubtlessly will do is require the vaccines for certain kinds of jobs, enrolling kids in school, international travel, etc. Other vaccines are already required for those things anyway, so covid will probably just be added to the list.


Here's a thought: what if everybody who refuses the vaccine cannot buy food, cannot be employed, cannot get an education?


----------



## Mr. Ed

garyt1957 said:


> I doubt it.


I hope you're right.


----------



## Mr. Ed

Irwin said:


> Being a "free thinker" used to mean free from the confines of society. Now it seems to mean free from facts and logic.


Free thinking..hmm let me see, that's like being different, right?


----------



## Aneeda72

Mr. Ed said:


> Here's a thought: what if everybody who refuses the vaccine cannot buy food, cannot be employed, cannot get an education?


Wow, should we dig up old King Henry to enforce this?  I think not


----------



## Aneeda72

Furryanimal said:


> Two health workers in Britain have suffered anaphylactic shock after receiving the first dose of the vaccine,
> Now anyone who suffers from food allergies or has ever experienced an adverse reaction to a medication or vaccine is being advised against having it.
> You would think they might have been aware of this before they started vaccinating.
> So this advice means I no longer have to think about if I will have it.I can’t have it.


I can’t either


----------



## Aneeda72

Becky1951 said:


> This is just the beginning.
> Give it 60 days and I'm sure there will be more problems such as, people on certain medications having severe and hopefully not deadly reactions..we are now the Guinea Pigs.


Yup, I said that on a different thread long ago.  Makes sense to get rid of the older non working people first.


----------



## Jules

Sunny said:


> Considering how new this virus is, and how deadly, I think our scientific researchers, and particularly Dr. Fauci, have done an incredible job.


Agreed. And it’s not like he’s making all these decisions himself.  He’s the leader/spokesperson for many brilliant scientists.  N.A. is very lucky to have these brilliant people who are adapting rapidly to new & changing information.


----------



## Mr. Ed

Aneeda72 said:


> Wow, should we dig up old King Henry to enforce this?  I think not


Please, my lapse of knowledge regarding Europian politics, but why the reference of old King Henry? I'm simply saying it may be possible that governing forces could restrict unvaccinated people from buying groceries and other types of social gatherings based on the possibility of COVID infection.


----------



## Rosemarie

In Britain, they are giving it to old people first. Personally, I think they are using them as guinea pigs. Old folks are expendable, so they are trying it out on them because if they all drop dead....well, no loss!


----------



## Lakeland living

A friend sent this to me...
 Have a look and share what you think.
https://brandnewtube.com/uploa....d/videos/2020/12/krS

     2     0


----------



## rgp

Lakeland living said:


> A friend sent this to me...
> Have a look and share what you think.
> https://brandnewtube.com/uploa....d/videos/2020/12/krS
> 
> 2     0




 WoW ! There's some food for thought. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## win231

Rosemarie said:


> In Britain, they are giving it to old people first. Personally, I think they are using them as guinea pigs. Old folks are expendable, so they are trying it out on them because if they all drop dead....well, no loss!


Not the only reason.  If the vaccine kills them, they can say, "It wasn't the vaccine; they're old; old people die; we all die of something."


----------



## Aneeda72

Mr. Ed said:


> Please, my lapse of knowledge regarding Europian politics, but why the reference of old King Henry? I'm simply saying it may be possible that governing forces could restrict unvaccinated people from buying groceries and other types of social gatherings based on the possibility of COVID infection.


I used King Henry because he was not a member of the American political system, he was an oppressive king, and he married and suppressed woman.  No one wants him in charge .  Don’t you remember the son and various movies?


----------



## Aneeda72

Mr. Ed said:


> Please, my lapse of knowledge regarding Europian politics, but why the reference of old King Henry? I'm simply saying it may be possible that governing forces could restrict unvaccinated people from buying groceries and other types of social gatherings based on the possibility of COVID infection.


Which is why you still wear a mask


----------



## ProTruckDriver

Lakeland living said:


> A friend sent this to me...
> Have a look and share what you think.
> https://brandnewtube.com/uploa....d/videos/2020/12/krS
> 
> 2     0


Hey @Becky1951 isn't this what you been talking about?


----------



## Fiona

Lakeland living said:


> A friend sent this to me...
> Have a look and share what you think.
> https://brandnewtube.com/uploa....d/videos/2020/12/krS
> 
> 2     0


I can understand the concern about how fast the vaccine has been developed, how few people it has been tested on, and how short a period of time those receiving the vaccine have been followed for potential side effects. We will each make an individual choice about whether to receive the vaccine. As I have stated before, I have followed the medical literature on the development and testing of the various vaccines (there is no one vaccine, but multiple candidates). I am prepared to take the risk, myself, when a solidly-researched vaccine is approved by the FDA and becomes available for seniors. I am even prepared to be made sick by it for a little while. That is my personal choice, based not on any fear of contracting the disease myself, but from my desire to do my part to help bring an end to the intense suffering of all of humanity due to excess deaths, widespread & devastating mourning, and economic consequences jn the form, for example, of a huge spike in worldwide hunger & starvation. Not to mention the emotional toll on all of us due to isolation and lack of contact with family & friends.

However, as a retired physician, I am *appalled* to see these other doctors calling COVID-19 "a hoax" and denying the existence of the global pandemic. The term "hoax" implies that there is some group of people that stands to benefit from promulgating disinformation on such a massive scale. In other words, a conspiracy. I just can't see the logic, let alone the feasibility, of such a widespread conspiracy. That's a patently ridiculous idea.

How many people need to die, how many hospitals & nursing homes need to be overwhelmed, how many health professionals need to be dropping from overwork & PTSD, for these doctors to be convinced? This is a very, very tiny minority of physicians worldwide who are spouting this nonsense. I did not see a single one of the doctors in that video admitting to being on the frontlines of dealing with these very ill patients. One of them is only board-certified in psychiatry!

Please don't let the COVID-deniers, no matter what their degrees, influence decisions that affect other human beings. If you choose to wait for more data about the vaccine, or refuse it altogether, that is your choice. But we DO need to all work together through the recommended public health measures to combat this deadly virus. There IS no hoax, no conspiracy of disinformation, about this brutal pandemic, It is REAL.


----------



## Sunny

Rosemarie said:


> In Britain, they are giving it to old people first. Personally, I think they are using them as guinea pigs. Old folks are expendable, so they are trying it out on them because if they all drop dead....well, no loss!


Rosemarie, doesn't it make more sense to drop the paranoia about this and just look at the more likely reason:  They are giving it to old people first because old people are much more likely to die from it?

Many of the young people carrying the virus don't even know they have it. They are asymptomatic.  Enormous numbers of the old folks are dying from it. The older they get, the more likely it is to be fatal. 

Personally, I'd love to be one of those "guinea pigs!"


----------



## win231

Fiona said:


> I can understand the concern about how fast the vaccine has been developed, how few people it has been tested on, and how short a period of time those receiving the vaccine have been followed for potential side effects. We will each make an individual choice about whether to receive the vaccine. As I have stated before, I have followed the medical literature on the development and testing of the various vaccines (there is no one vaccine, but multiple candidates). I am prepared to take the risk, myself, when a solidly-researched vaccine is approved by the FDA and becomes available for seniors. I am prepared to be made sick by it for a little while. That is my personal choice, based not on any fear of contracting the disease myself, but from my desire to do my part to help bring an end to the intense suffering of all of humanity due to excess deaths, widespread & devastating mourning, and economic consequences jn the form, for example, of a huge spike in worldwide hunger & starvation. Not to mention the emotional toll on all of us due to isolation and lack of contact with family & friends.
> 
> However, as a retired physician, I am *appalled* to see these other doctors calling COVID-19 "a hoax" and denying the existence of the global pandemic. The term "hoax" implies that there is some group of people that stands to benefit from promulgating disinformation on such a massive scale. In other words, a conspiracy. I just can't see the logic, let alone the feasibility, of such a widespread conspiracy. That's a patently ridiculous idea.
> 
> How many people need to die, how many hospitals & nursing homes need to be overwhelmed, how many health professionals need to be dropping from overwork & PTSD, for these doctors to be convinced? This is a very, very tiny minority of physicians worldwide who are spouting this nonsense. I did not see one of them admitting to being on the frontlines of dealing with these very ill patients. One of them is only board-certified in psychiatry!
> 
> Please don't let the COVID-deniers, no matter what their degrees, influence decisions that affect other human beings. If you choose to wait for more data about the vaccine, or refuse it altogether, that is your choice. But we DO need to all work together through the recommended public health measures to combat this deadly virus. There IS no hoax, no conspiracy of disinformation, about this brutal pandemic, It is REAL.


Most physicians and retired physicians are reluctant to say anything negative about prescription drugs, medical procedures, medical tests or vaccines.  That's why it is important to hear the other side from the few physicians who are willing to.


----------



## Warrigal

A trial for a vaccine by Uni of Queensland and CSL has been scrapped because is has been found to throw up some false positives for HIV. I think we should trust that the process to ensure a safe and reliable vaccine is working.


----------



## Sunny

I don't understand; how can a vaccine throw up false positives?  That sounds more like a test.


----------



## Warrigal

This might clarify how the process of developing a working vaccine for coronavirus could lead to false positives for HIV



> In a statement issued on Friday morning, CSL said “following consultation with the Australian government, CSL will not progress the vaccine candidate to phase 2/3 clinical trials”.
> 
> The Covid-19 “spike protein” has been the focus of the University of Queensland vaccine, using molecular clamp technology to lock the protein into a shape which allows the immune system to be able to recognise and then neutralise the virus.
> 
> Covid’s spike proteins, like most surface viral proteins, are fairly unstable. To ensure that the vaccine induced the right immune response, the clamp chosen comprises two fragments of a protein found in HIV, as those fragments provided the greatest stability to the vaccine. Adding those fragments to the spike protein is completely harmless.
> 
> Trial participants were advised of the possibility that vaccine-induced HIV antibodies might be detected as a result, but it was nonetheless unexpected. Subsequent HIV tests provided definitive negative results in the trial participants.
> 
> While the HIV tests were false positives and there was no risk to the trial participants, significant changes would need to be made to well-established HIV testing procedures to accommodate rollout of this vaccine, the researchers said. The Phase 1 trial will continue, where further analysis of the data will show how long the antibodies persist.
> 
> More here: Australia terminates University of Queensland vaccine deal with CSL after false positives for HIV | Coronavirus | The Guardian


----------



## Becky1951

ProTruckDriver said:


> Hey @Becky1951 isn't this what you been talking about?


I have no idea, I've tried several times to play the video but my wifi is slow today, so much so all the video does is buffer.


----------



## Becky1951

I couldn't get the video to play. If its touting this virus isn't real, I'm not wasting my time on it.




Fiona said:


> I can understand the concern about how fast the vaccine has been developed, how few people it has been tested on, and how short a period of time those receiving the vaccine have been followed for potential side effects. We will each make an individual choice about whether to receive the vaccine. As I have stated before, I have followed the medical literature on the development and testing of the various vaccines (there is no one vaccine, but multiple candidates). I am prepared to take the risk, myself, when a solidly-researched vaccine is approved by the FDA and becomes available for seniors. I am even prepared to be made sick by it for a little while. That is my personal choice, based not on any fear of contracting the disease myself, but from my desire to do my part to help bring an end to the intense suffering of all of humanity due to excess deaths, widespread & devastating mourning, and economic consequences jn the form, for example, of a huge spike in worldwide hunger & starvation. Not to mention the emotional toll on all of us due to isolation and lack of contact with family & friends.
> 
> However, as a retired physician, I am *appalled* to see these other doctors calling COVID-19 "a hoax" and denying the existence of the global pandemic. The term "hoax" implies that there is some group of people that stands to benefit from promulgating disinformation on such a massive scale. In other words, a conspiracy. I just can't see the logic, let alone the feasibility, of such a widespread conspiracy. That's a patently ridiculous idea.
> 
> How many people need to die, how many hospitals & nursing homes need to be overwhelmed, how many health professionals need to be dropping from overwork & PTSD, for these doctors to be convinced? This is a very, very tiny minority of physicians worldwide who are spouting this nonsense. I did not see a single one of the doctors in that video admitting to being on the frontlines of dealing with these very ill patients. One of them is only board-certified in psychiatry!
> 
> Please don't let the COVID-deniers, no matter what their degrees, influence decisions that affect other human beings. If you choose to wait for more data about the vaccine, or refuse it altogether, that is your choice. But we DO need to all work together through the recommended public health measures to combat this deadly virus. There IS no hoax, no conspiracy of disinformation, about this brutal pandemic, It is REAL.


----------



## dobielvr

Furryanimal said:


> Two health workers in Britain have suffered anaphylactic shock after receiving the first dose of the vaccine,
> Now anyone who suffers from food allergies or has ever experienced an adverse reaction to a medication or vaccine is being advised against having it.
> You would think they might have been aware of this before they started vaccinating.
> So this advice means I no longer have to think about if I will have it.I can’t have it.


Well, this makes my decision much easier for now.
Just say NO.


----------



## Butterfly

Aneeda72 said:


> I see traveling plus the rest in the statement, although I will never attend an indoor theater again, I might, once I have the vaccine eat at a restaurant that observes social distance rules.  I think a movie or a play or a concert would be too big a risk with the amount of people who do not get vaccinated.
> 
> I can imagine any vaccination card could be and will be forged.



Yeah, but I'll bet there'll be an online database which can be crosschecked to detect fraudsters.


----------



## Fiona

win231 said:


> Most physicians and retired physicians are reluctant to say anything negative about prescription drugs, medical procedures, medical tests or vaccines.  That's why it is important to hear the other side from the few physicians who are willing to.



I agree, Win. The medical profession tends to band together, often in support of the motives of Big Pharma and Big Insurance. That is nothing new. I take no issue with what the doctors in that video said about the vaccine. They have a right to speak out if they are concerned about ill effects of the vaccine. However, physicians who claim that the virus is a hoax, that there is no global pandemic, should be condemned for causing harm with their words.


----------



## Butterfly

debodun said:


> Another customer at the garage where I took my car for inspection was saying that they inject a tracking chip in you when you get the shot. Truth? Urban legend? Who knows?



And why would the ubiquitous but never defined "they" want to do that?

Where's my tinfoil hat?  It's getting pretty battered from being worn so much this last year, but still serviceable, and, clearly, still needed.


----------



## Butterfly

Shalimar said:


> Seems rather far fetched to me.



More than far fetched -- it's downright woo-woo.


----------



## Butterfly

Sunny said:


> That's true of every vaccine.


And so what, anyway?  We shouldn't even try for a vaccine because this one will just mutate anyway?  That's silly.


----------



## Butterfly

Furryanimal said:


> Two health workers in Britain have suffered anaphylactic shock after receiving the first dose of the vaccine,
> Now anyone who suffers from food allergies or has ever experienced an adverse reaction to a medication or vaccine is being advised against having it.
> You would think they might have been aware of this before they started vaccinating.
> So this advice means I no longer have to think about if I will have it.I can’t have it.



What I read is that anyone who has experienced severe allergies *to the components of this vaccine *shouldn't get it. Big difference. Just because you are allergic to one thing doesn't mean you are allergic to everything.


----------



## Butterfly

Mr. Ed said:


> Here's a thought: what if everybody who refuses the vaccine cannot buy food, cannot be employed, cannot get an education?


Cannot buy food?  That's a hell of a stretch.  Can't be employed in certain places?  I've worked in placed where getting the flu vaccine (or a doctor's certificate as to why you can't) was a condition of employment; and in many (if not all) areas of the US vaccinations are required to enroll children in school.

So what's new?


----------



## Butterfly

Lakeland living said:


> A friend sent this to me...
> Have a look and share what you think.
> https://brandnewtube.com/uploa....d/videos/2020/12/krS
> 
> 2     0


I think I need my tinfoil hat again.  Not a real pandemic?  Not a real disease?  Tell it to the doctors and nurses working amid the sick and dying in packed hospitals.  Tell it to my friend who lost a family member to covid.

That guy's a shrink, not an epidemiologist, anyway.


----------



## Butterfly

Fiona said:


> I can understand the concern about how fast the vaccine has been developed, how few people it has been tested on, and how short a period of time those receiving the vaccine have been followed for potential side effects. We will each make an individual choice about whether to receive the vaccine. As I have stated before, I have followed the medical literature on the development and testing of the various vaccines (there is no one vaccine, but multiple candidates). I am prepared to take the risk, myself, when a solidly-researched vaccine is approved by the FDA and becomes available for seniors. I am even prepared to be made sick by it for a little while. That is my personal choice, based not on any fear of contracting the disease myself, but from my desire to do my part to help bring an end to the intense suffering of all of humanity due to excess deaths, widespread & devastating mourning, and economic consequences jn the form, for example, of a huge spike in worldwide hunger & starvation. Not to mention the emotional toll on all of us due to isolation and lack of contact with family & friends.
> 
> However, as a retired physician, I am *appalled* to see these other doctors calling COVID-19 "a hoax" and denying the existence of the global pandemic. The term "hoax" implies that there is some group of people that stands to benefit from promulgating disinformation on such a massive scale. In other words, a conspiracy. I just can't see the logic, let alone the feasibility, of such a widespread conspiracy. That's a patently ridiculous idea.
> 
> How many people need to die, how many hospitals & nursing homes need to be overwhelmed, how many health professionals need to be dropping from overwork & PTSD, for these doctors to be convinced? This is a very, very tiny minority of physicians worldwide who are spouting this nonsense. I did not see a single one of the doctors in that video admitting to being on the frontlines of dealing with these very ill patients. One of them is only board-certified in psychiatry!
> 
> Please don't let the COVID-deniers, no matter what their degrees, influence decisions that affect other human beings. If you choose to wait for more data about the vaccine, or refuse it altogether, that is your choice. But we DO need to all work together through the recommended public health measures to combat this deadly virus. There IS no hoax, no conspiracy of disinformation, about this brutal pandemic, It is REAL.


Thank you!!


----------



## Shalimar

The pandemic is fake? What alternative reality is that? As of this evening, I have said phone goodbyes to six vets hospitalised with Corona. All are dead now. In less than a week.  It’s a cluster **** because a bunch of them live in a trailer park in a hot zone on the mainland. There are at least ten more in quarantine, and four more admitted to hospital as of yesterday. Also, last month, I lost two local vets. Yeah, this plague is real, alright.


----------



## Furryanimal

Butterfly said:


> What I read is that anyone who has experienced severe allergies *to the components of this vaccine *shouldn't get it. Big difference. Just because you are allergic to one thing doesn't mean you are allergic to everything.


That’s not how it was reported and as I suffered temporary paralysis after the Polio vaccine ( this reaction is well documented)I will be seeking advice before taking it.
My take all along has been I will take it if it is safe.And I don’t care how many people were involved in the trials it’s still been rushed and problems often appear despite vaccines being approved.Swine flu circa 1976 being one.
As I am in the seventh cohort that will be called in I have a couple of months to hold a watching brief.What I don’t want is to be forced into it by stealth.


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> The pandemic is fake? What alternative reality is that? As of this evening, I have said phone goodbyes to six vets hospitalised with Corona. All are dead now. In less than a week.  It’s a cluster **** because a bunch of them live in a trailer park in a hot zone on the mainland. There are at least ten more in quarantine, and four more admitted to hospital as of yesterday. Also, last month, I lost two local vets. Yeah, this plague is real, alright.


I never believed Covid is fake or a hoax.  I believe the fatality rate is exaggerated.  And the takeaway of that information (for me)  is not to rush to get the vaccine; it may not be worth the risk.


----------



## win231

People who can't wait to get the "miracle" vaccine need to remember one important point:  You can't "Untake" a vaccine once you get it.


----------



## Jules

Furryanimal said:


> And I don’t care how many people were involved in the trials it’s still been rushed and problems often appear despite vaccines being approved.


It’s not really like there was a choice.  People are suffering and dying.  The economy has to get back on track.  

If someone like you knows they’ve had issues, not taking it right away or ever is wise.


----------



## Irwin

The frontline workers are the first to be getting the shots. If there are problems with the vaccine, we'll know it before the rest of us get our shots.


----------



## Becky1951

win231 said:


> People who can't wait to get the "miracle" vaccine need to remember one important point:  You can't "Untake" a vaccine once you get it.


*I want to know what is in the vaccine we in the US will be getting. 
Hope it's not like this one.*

"Australian vaccine scientist Nikolai Petrovsky had warned the government about the risk of including HIV in a vaccine months before the $1billion deal was signed.

He said the problem with the use of HIV was clear in the 'hamster and mouse data' but his advice was ignored."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ronavirus-vaccine-sensationally-SCRAPPED.html


----------



## Lakeland living

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what an injection or set of injections is worth on the black marker??


----------



## dobielvr

Does anybody know what's in it?
That's what I want to know...


----------



## Warrigal

Becky1951 said:


> *I want to know what is in the vaccine we in the US will be getting.
> Hope it's not like this one.*
> 
> "Australian vaccine scientist Nikolai Petrovsky had warned the government about the risk of including HIV in a vaccine months before the $1billion deal was signed.
> 
> He said the problem with the use of HIV was clear in the 'hamster and mouse data' but his advice was ignored."
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ronavirus-vaccine-sensationally-SCRAPPED.html


----------



## win231

You have no way of knowing what's in the vaccine.


----------



## Warrigal

I wouldn't be too worried about the Australian vaccine. The company that is working on it, in conjunction with the University of Queensland is our largest company and they are very responsible. They were only at the stage of Stage 1 trials and the sample was only a little over 100 volunteers. They were using a HIV protein to stabilise the spikes on the corona virus and that is not at all the same as using live, weakened or dead virus.

They knew that this could result in false positives for HIV using the existing tests and when the trial confirmed this, the trial was immediately suspended and the Stock Exchange was notified. Before this vaccine could have been ready for use it would have had to pass stages 2, 3 and 4. This is the normal process all of the manufacturers have to follow.

This does not mean that anyone has contracted HIV. It means that to use this vaccine they would first have to develop a new test for actual HIV that wouldn't throw up false negatives. That would slow everything down and in the case of SARS-Cov 2 time is of the essence.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if CSL does now work on new HIV tests because in the future this vaccine might turn out to valuable in the fight against this virus, or another variant of it.

I suggest people who are anxious about vaccines do some research on the method of manufacture and the principles behind the way that it promotes antibodies to be developed. A reputable company with many years of working in this field should not be subject to automatic suspicion. Don't listen to hearsay and scuttlebutt.

Our government took out options on 4 different vaccines. Only one has been discontinued. I'm hoping to receive one that is single dose only and that doesn't require extreme refrigeration, but I will take whatever is on offer when the time comes. I don't mind offering myself as a guinea pig. We can't all hang back.


----------



## StarSong

Warrigal said:


> I wouldn't be too worried about the Australian vaccine. The company that is working on it, in conjunction with the University of Queensland is our largest company and they are very responsible. They were only at the stage of Stage 1 trials and the sample was only a little over 100 volunteers. *They were using a HIV protein to stabilise the spikes on the corona virus and that is not at all the same as using live, weakened or dead virus.*
> 
> They knew that this could result in false positives for HIV using the existing tests and when the trial confirmed this, the trial was immediately suspended and the Stock Exchange was notified. Before this vaccine could have been ready for use it would have had to pass stages 2, 3 and 4. This is the normal process all of the manufacturers have to follow.
> 
> *This does not mean that anyone has contracted HIV. It means that to use this vaccine they would first have to develop a new test for actual HIV that wouldn't throw up false negatives. That would slow everything down and in the case of SARS-Cov 2 time is of the essence.*
> 
> However, I wouldn't be surprised if CSL does now work on new HIV tests because in the future this vaccine might turn out to valuable in the fight against this virus, or another variant of it.
> 
> *I suggest people who are anxious about vaccines do some research on the method of manufacture and the principles behind the way that it promotes antibodies to be developed. A reputable company with many years of working in this field should not be subject to automatic suspicion. Don't listen to hearsay and scuttlebutt.*
> 
> Our government took out options on 4 different vaccines. Only one has been discontinued. I'm hoping to receive one that is single dose only and that doesn't require extreme refrigeration, but I will take whatever is on offer when the time comes. I don't mind offering myself as a guinea pig. We can't all hang back.


This is also the way I understood it when reading the article, didn't have the time, energy or unoccupied brain cells at that moment to explain it clearly.  Thanks for straightening this out.  

p.s. I bolded the parts of your response that struck me as particularly important.


----------



## Fiona

Butterfly said:


> What I read is that anyone who has experienced severe allergies *to the components of this vaccine *shouldn't get it. Big difference. Just because you are allergic to one thing doesn't mean you are allergic to everything.


Right, Butterfly. And we must always keep in mind that *multiple* vaccines are beng developed and tested. Any one vaccine might be more prone to cause allergic reactions than another.


----------



## Ladybj

Sunny said:


> Most people trust Dr. Fauci implicitly. He is as close to a hero as we have in fighting this horrific disease. Of course, as some of us have repeated here ad nauseum, science doesn't come up with divinely ordained absolute truths. There are always inconsistencies, and our ideas change and evolve as we learn more and more about the subject. Considering how new this virus is, and how deadly, I think our scientific researchers, and particularly Dr. Fauci, have done an incredible job.


----------



## Sunny

Good article on the conspiracy theories about the vaccine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nih-director-asks-americans-leave-151000364.html


----------



## Butterfly

Aunt Bea said:


> I'll take it when it's available through my PCP or local pharmacy.
> 
> I don't really feel comfortable going through some sort of mass inoculation involving lines of people being treated by a bunch of tired bored worn-out people that are just trying to get through the day.



Looks like the polio shot lines we stood in when I was a little kid.

From what our local Health Department is saying, that won't be the way they'll be handling it here.  They've said it will be by appointment only, and where possible will be drive thru.  They're still working on the logistics, anyway, since mass vaccination won't take place here until the tier 1 and 2 people have been vaccinated.


----------



## Aunt Bea

Butterfly said:


> Looks like the polio shot lines we stood in when I was a little kid.
> 
> From what our local Health Department is saying, that won't be the way they'll be handling it here.  They've said it will be by appointment only, and where possible will be drive thru.  They're still working on the logistics, anyway, since mass vaccination won't take place here until the tier 1 and 2 people have been vaccinated.


I'm very curious to see how the first few million vaccinations are handled and how the process evolves during that time.

I still do not understand how long it takes to bring the vaccine up to body temperature before it can be administered.


----------



## Montana

By accepting the shot you become the carrier of disease and the changes.  By not accepting you get sick but become immune and no risk except newer version but  with minor effects.  The shot i


----------



## StarSong

Montana said:


> By accepting the shot you become the carrier of disease and the changes.


That's not how vaccines work.  If it were true we'd all be carrying smallpox, polio, tetanus and every other disease for which we were vaccinated.


----------



## oldman

I had COVID and the two jabs, plus one booster. I felt bad on every injection, so I have decided enough is enough. I should have plenty of antibodies, both natural and artificial to protect me.


----------



## oldman

StarSong said:


> That's not how vaccines work.  If it were true we'd all be carrying smallpox, polio, tetanus and every other disease for which we were vaccinated.


Exactly and besides that, the COVID vaccine does not contain any live virus.


----------



## Montana

StarSong said:


> That's not how vaccines work.  If it were true we'd all be carrying smallpox, polio, tetanus and every other disease for which we were vaccinated.


You are correct but these shots they giving now are mRNA that modifies your genes and isn't even close to any vaccines from the past.  They have no knowledge of what these mRNA will do to you in the future or it was there intention to do but why are they being forced?  They are selling it to people that it is just like the shots in the past but they aren't even close to them because of the gene therapy.  It is left out out in the discussion about the shot.  This is why I am against the any vaccines at this time.


----------



## Montana

Montana said:


> You are correct but these shots they giving now are mRNA that modifies your genes and isn't even close to any vaccines from the past.  They have no knowledge of what these mRNA will do to you in the future or it was there intention to do but why are they being forced?  They are selling it to people that it is just like the shots in the past but they aren't even close to them because of the gene therapy.  It is left out out in the discussion about the shot.  This is why I am against the any vaccines at this time.


Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine

"Messenger RNA instructions are timed to self-destruct, like a disappearing text or snapchat message. Structural features of the mRNA – the U in the code, its single-stranded shape, ribose sugar and its specific sequence – ensure that the mRNA has a short half-life. These features combine to enable the message to be “read,” translated into proteins, and then quickly destroyed – within minutes for certain proteins that need to be tightly controlled, or up to a few hours for others."

This is why the vaccine isn't working because it is a temporary fix and why there is new strain coming out.  Why you have to have a shot after a time.

Hence the mRNA shots are useless and what else happens after long term use?  Unknown because it has been less then ten years to get here, experiential trail on the masses of the world population by force or misinformation.  Was it planned, I don't know but personally I don't trust the government of any place because they forgot about God in there lives. They only have greed and what they can get.


----------



## Packerjohn

It could be that the healthcare workers know something we don't?


----------



## WhatInThe

StarSong said:


> That's not how vaccines work.  If it were true we'd all be carrying smallpox, polio, tetanus and every other disease for which we were vaccinated.


If the covid vax was a traditional vax it probably would be one and done for decades. But with covid vaxxes some are up to their second booster with in the first year. The tech or method used in most covid vaxxes is too new for long term reliability or to know longer term adverse affects.


----------



## Wontactmyage

Packerjohn said:


> It could be that the healthcare workers know something we don't?


Have you ever heard of Dr. Charles Malone or Dr McCullough, Ryan Cole and the Great Barrington Declaration?


----------



## win231

Montana said:


> You are correct but these shots they giving now are mRNA that modifies your genes and isn't even close to any vaccines from the past.  They have no knowledge of what these mRNA will do to you in the future or it was there intention to do but why are they being forced?  They are selling it to people that it is just like the shots in the past but they aren't even close to them because of the gene therapy.  It is left out out in the discussion about the shot.  This is why I am against the any vaccines at this time.


I'm not interested in them, either.  The hard sell & coercion makes any thinking person suspicious, plus the fact that vaccine makers are immune from damages if their vaccine causes harm.


----------



## Don M.

WhatInThe said:


> The tech or method used in most covid vaxxes is too new for long term reliability or to know longer term adverse affects.


True, but the suddenness with which this Covid hit didn't allow for the years of testing that went into the polio and smallpox vaccines.  Had the current vaccines taken 5 or 10 years to develop, the global death numbers would probably be in the 10's of millions, by now, and we would all be living in a lockdown like Shanghai.  
Perhaps, years from now, there may be a rash of side effects from these vaccines, but it's all a Crap Shoot, where we have little choice but to weigh the benefits, vs, any potential risks....and trust that the scientists know what they are doing.


----------



## Buckeye

Here is an interesting report - vaccinations could have prevented 3 out of 5 Covid deaths since June 2021.

3 in 5 Covid deaths could have been prevented


----------



## win231

Buckeye said:


> Here is an interesting report - vaccinations could have prevented 3 out of 5 Covid deaths since June 2021.
> 
> 3 in 5 Covid deaths could have been prevented


The information in that _"Please Donate $$$$" _site tries to teach a lesson:  _"Buy whatever we're selling without any thought."_
In other words: _ "Be a robot; we make money that way."_


----------



## Buckeye

win231 said:


> The information in that _"Please Donate $$$$" _site tries to teach a lesson:  _"Buy whatever we're selling without any thought."_
> In other words: _ "Be a robot; we make money that way."_


Well, at least you are not trying to dispute the data.....

The study was done by the Kaiser Family Foundation, and was reported on a number of sites.


----------



## dseag2

Montana said:


> By accepting the shot you become the carrier of disease and the changes.  By not accepting you get sick but become immune and no risk except newer version but  with minor effects.  The shot i


I welcome new members, but why did you see fit to resurrect this inflammatory thread that essentially ended in December 2020?  The Covid conversations have become the most devisive of any.  There are vax and anti-vax members, mask and anti-mask members in this forum, and that will never change.  I do admire your altruism but time to move on to something more current.


----------



## Becky1951

I don't believe any reports, studies considering their numbers are false due to so many deaths being counted as due to Covid when they actually were due to accidents, or heart attacks, strokes etc.


----------



## win231

dseag2 said:


> I welcome new members, but why did you see fit to resurrect this inflammatory thread that essentially ended in December 2020?  The Covid conversations have become the most devisive of any.  There are vax and anti-vax members, mask and anti-mask members in this forum, and that will never change.  I do admire your altruism but time to move on to something more current.


The number of responses indicates continuing interest in this topic, so there is nothing wrong with the resurrection.


----------



## Becky1951

win231 said:


> The number of responses indicates continuing interest in this topic, so there is nothing wrong with the resurrection.


Funny how some think they should tell others which old/older topics should be resurrected.    

Covid is still here and so is vaccines and boosters.


----------



## win231

Becky1951 said:


> Funny how some think they should tell others which old/older topics should be resurrected.
> 
> Covid is still here and so is vaccines and boosters.


HAHA.  "Post Monitor."


----------



## dseag2

win231 said:


> The number of responses indicates continuing interest in this topic, so there is nothing wrong with the resurrection.





Becky1951 said:


> Funny how some think they should tell others which old/older topics should be resurrected.
> 
> Covid is still here and so is vaccines and boosters.


Didn't you know I am the Mayor of SF?   Just kidding.  You are right.  I guess I am just a bit sensitive since I joined SF when the Covid threads were all the rage.  Yes, it is still with us, but I am tired of discussing it just like I know you must be.  

Much love to you, Becky.


----------



## boliverchadsworth

Aunt Marg said:


> Myself, as well as my husband will not be partaking in any Covid-19 vaccines of any kind.


safe and effective


----------



## Sunny

Gosh, we're resurrecting people now also?


----------



## Brookswood

I have an older friend who suffered from Polio most of his life. He told me I was lucky to have been born late enough to get the vaccine.  He said if he had been born just two years later, he would have been vaccinated and never suffered from that terrible disease.  

I think of him every time somebody pooh poohs vaccinations


----------



## win231

Brookswood said:


> All I know is that I have an older friend who suffered from Polio most of his life. He told me I was lucky to have been born late enough to get the vaccine.  He said if he had been born just two years later, he would have been vaccinated and never suffered from that terrible disease.
> 
> I think of him every time somebody pooh poohs the vaccine.


Not a valid comparison to the Covid vaccine.
The Polio vaccine was developed & studied in the required 10-15 years.  And profit was not the main motivation.  That's why its success rate was high.
The Covid vaccine was developed in less than one year & is experimental.  And profit is the main motivation.
That's why it's not working & the long-term side effects are unknown.


----------



## Forerunner

My doctor said I had Covid 2 years ago. I didn't tell him about last Fall. I'm double immune-compromised. I leave the house once a month. I'm not vaxxed. I have natural immunity. I'm not afraid to die and I don't listen to MSM propaganda.
Q. What's the difference between conspiracy theory and fact?
A. About 6 months.


----------



## Marie5656

StarSong said:


> Why?  So that this virus can be stopped, that's why.  Or do people want to live like this for several more years until herd immunity kicks in or the virus morphs into a less dangerous version.


*When I went for my second shot, I asked the pharmacy tech is covid may be like the flu, recurring in some form every year.  PLUS, if we are boosted, if we do get it, will be less severe.  I have the first three.  I asked my pharmacist about the fourth.  He said HIS opinion was, us older Americans should consider it...but he would not say we HAD to*


----------



## boliverchadsworth

opinions ..? like buttholes ....everyone has one. usually not much diffenrce


----------



## Forerunner

I wonder what the monkey-pox vax is like?


----------



## win231

Forerunner said:


> I wonder what the monkey-pox vax is like?


You can't get the vaccine if you're allergic to bananas.


----------



## JonSR77

Based on my experiences in the pandemic..


----------



## JonSR77

I want a vaccine that makes me immune to humans.


----------



## Lavinia

JonSR77 said:


> I want a vaccine that makes me immune to humans.


Doesn't that come with age anyway?


----------



## Em in Ohio

dseag2 said:


> I welcome new members, but why did you see fit to resurrect this inflammatory thread that essentially ended in December 2020?  The Covid conversations have become the most devisive of any.  There are vax and anti-vax members, mask and anti-mask members in this forum, and that will never change.  I do admire your altruism but time to move on to something more current.


New members probably want to have their say, even if it isn't timely.  I don't have an issue with digging up old threads.  Also, I believe in "to each his/her own."  As for me, I was eligible for my booster and procrastinated.  Trust me, as soon as I find out if I escaped Covid-19 after my family reunion, I'll hustle my butt to the pharmacy.  Others in the family are already positive and suffering symptoms - same issue, we didn't follow up with the boosters.  We thought we were still safe because we have all been vaccinated, cautious, mask-wearing, testing people.  So much for assumptions.


----------



## Lavinia

Em in Ohio said:


> New members probably want to have their say, even if it isn't timely.  I don't have an issue with digging up old threads.  Also, I believe in "to each his/her own."  As for me, I was eligible for my booster and procrastinated.  Trust me, as soon as I find out if I escaped Covid-19 after my family reunion, I'll hustle my butt to the pharmacy.  Others in the family are already positive and suffering symptoms - same issue, we didn't follow up with the boosters.  We thought we were still safe because we have all been vaccinated, cautious, mask-wearing, testing people.  So much for assumptions.


In your circumstances, you're quite justified in resurrecting an old thread. There are so much  conflicting advice, it is hard to know what is best.
Sorry to hear so many of your family are affected.


----------



## boliverchadsworth

win231 said:


> Not a valid comparison to the Covid vaccine.
> The Polio vaccine was developed & studied in the required 10-15 years.  And profit was not the main motivation.  That's why its success rate was high.
> The Covid vaccine was developed in less than one year & is experimental.  And profit is the main motivation.
> That's why it's not working & the long-term side effects are unknown.


side effects are becoming known...as with most misdirection it will leak out........and is now....John campbellk uk on youtube...


----------



## boliverchadsworth

safe and effective .....check is in the mail etc


----------



## Just Jeff

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, since, every year, we get the Senior Double Dose, and feel extremely good about getting it, will get the "19" vaccine when it comes out. We just don't, and won't, take any chances!


Taking the j\abs that are known to disable the immune system or to provoke it into attacking a person's organs is the worse possible thing to do.

Does anyone know if ClassicRockr passed away - hasn't been seen for a while ?


----------



## Just Jeff

boliverchadsworth said:


> side effects are becoming known...as with most misdirection it will leak out........and is now....John campbellk uk on youtube...


Is the worst side effect death, or being confined to a hospital / breathing machine/  ,  or seeing children die daily from the jabs ?   


boliverchadsworth said:


> safe and effective .....check is in the mail etc


/s  sarcasm ?  right ?


----------



## JaniceM

Just Jeff said:


> Taking the j\abs that are known to disable the immune system or to provoke it into attacking a person's organs is the worse possible thing to do.
> 
> Does anyone know if ClassicRockr passed away - hasn't been seen for a while ?


Nope..  he's over there on 'that other' senior forum


----------



## Just Jeff

Brookswood said:


> I have an older friend who suffered from Polio most of his life. He told me I was lucky to have been born late enough to get the vaccine.  He said if he had been born just two years later, he would have been vaccinated and never suffered from that terrible disease.
> 
> I think of him every time somebody pooh poohs vaccinations


Can you still do research on the internet and/or other sources of those old fashioned objects people used to sometimes use, read, or refer to ?     /BOOKS? ? /


----------



## Sassycakes

Both my husband and I are fully vaccinated. In my opinion it's better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## Just Jeff

How is it any safer to have a compromised, weaker immune system ?  And all the proven complications,  some may be not reversible,  from the vaccines ?  
Those who get sick and die, or whose children have seizures or lifelong disabilities , especially,  are immensely grieved to have listened to the promoters of toxic injections.


----------



## Just Jeff

Becky1951 said:


> I don't believe any reports, studies considering *their numbers are false* due to so many deaths being counted as due to Covid when they actually were due to accidents, or heart attacks, strokes etc.


Thank you.


----------



## Just Jeff

JonSR77 said:


> I want a vaccine that makes me immune to humans.


Believe it or not / truth is stranger than fiction/ 

this quoted IS Scriptural.

Humans are the downfall of mankind and all its problems.


----------



## John cycling

Brookswood said:


> I have an older friend who suffered from Polio most of his life. He told me I was lucky to have been born late enough to get the vaccine.  He said if he had been born just two years later, he would have been vaccinated and never suffered from that terrible disease.



The virus lie - 18 things you didn't know about polio <--

Examples:

#3 - Polio consists of symptoms synonymous with neurological damage, causing organ failure.

#4 - Heavy metal poisoning from lead, mercury and other similar heavy metals manifest lesions on neurological tissues, meaning the toxin destroys the nerve/communication pathways connecting the brain to the organs in the body.

#8 - Parents report finding their children paralyzed in and around apple orchards. One of the most heavily pesticide sprayed crops of the time (_with lead arsenate or copper arsenate_) were apple orchards.

#9 - President Roosevelt became paralyzed over night while at a summer retreat, which contained many crops, including apple orchards. He also swam the day prior in a bay that was heavily polluted by industrial agricultural run off.   (There's more information on the link about this.)

#12 - In 1956 the AMA instructed each licensed medical doctor that they could no longer classify polio as polio, or their license to practice would be terminated.  This is purposely designed to obfuscate the public’s understanding of what causes paralysis, which is heavy metal poisoning plus vaccine induced autoimmunity that ends with the body attacking and destroying its’ own nervous system pathways, in an rabid attempt to clean itself of the injected toxins.

#18 - People receiving the polio vaccine (_and other vaccines_) were much more likely to be ill in general and present polio like symptoms. Disease is not a poison deficiency. Disease is caused by a surplus of poisons and the documented toxins in all vaccines PACK A WALLOP!

See the link for more information.


----------



## Just Jeff

John cycling said:


> People receiving the polio vaccine (_and other vaccines_) were much more likely to be ill in general and present polio like symptoms. Disease isn’t a poison deficiency. Disease is caused by a surplus of poisons and the documented toxins in all vaccines PACK A WALLOP!


ditto false news about pandemic - even IF it were some kind of virus,  pollution/toxins/poisons were what caused the damage,  and 
just like for polio,   vitamin c in medium to high doses PREVENTED sequalae 
merriam-webster.com› dictionary › sequela
March 14, 2019 - The meaning of SEQUELA is an aftereffect of a disease, condition, or injury.
i.e. no virus caused paralyzing effects,  but the sequela were from the debris remaining in the blood stream,  and vitamin c early enough and enough of it prevented those effects, thus no problem.

Before the media blackout,  europe clinics were dealing totally successfully with the so-called pandemic,  and also previous outbreaks the last fifty more years,  with mostly vitamin c,  and as needed other supplements or changes in diet.


----------



## Warrigal

Sunny said:


> I feel the same about it as Warrigal.  When my physician recommends it, I will enthusiastically take it. What is there to worry so much about? A few side effects?  I'm willing to take that much of a risk in order to get my life back.
> 
> Of course, if it looks iffy, not well tested, potentially dangerous, etc., no one will take it. Before it's distributed to the public, it will have to be pretty thoroughly tested.


Well, true to my word I have now had a second booster for Covid 19 and two weeks before that I also had the annual influenza booster. Both were painless and no adverse effects for either. The reason for the two week separation is so that if there is any reaction the GP can tell which injection was the cause. The doctors do know their stuff and I trust mine to advise and act in my best interest.

Covid has not gone away. It is still out there looking for new hosts. I'm not in the business of making it easy for the virus to use my cells to reproduce itself.


----------



## Warrigal

Granny B. said:


> Regarding side effects, here's an article I just read today:
> Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won’t be ‘a walk in the park’
> 
> Here are a couple of key points:
> -  "...vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache."
> 
> -  "Dr. Sandra Fryhofer said that both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s Covid-19 vaccines require two doses and she worries whether her patients will come back for a second dose because of potentially unpleasant side effects after the first shot."
> 
> -  “The first dose is no big deal. And then the second dose will definitely put you down for the day for sure. ... You will need to take a day off after the second dose.”


Not my experience and I am on blood pressure and cholesterol medication and am now in my 80th year of life. I've had 2 Astra Zeneca shots and since then two Pfizer booster shots. 

Unpleasant side effects? None, unless you count being surprised by a slightly tender spot on the upper arm when taking a shower. That's when I discover the tiny round plaster that was put there the day before and I remember that I have had an injection.


----------



## SeniorBen

I like this forum for the diversity of ideas and beliefs. It seems like an accurate cross-section and representation of the U.S.


----------



## JonSR77

err on the side of caution

Be as safe as you can, for as long as you can.

COVID is pneumonia. The idea that pneumonia has suddenly become completely safe is, on its face lunacy.

And, it is not regular pneumonia, it is a far more dangerous form of pneumonia.

So those are basic medical science facts that are not in dispute.


If you are over 60, you are at greater risk.

If you are over 60 and have existing medical problems, you are at even greater risk.


Those are undisputed facts.

And if you are unvaccinated? Then you are at grave risk...and risk of death from COVID.

Err on the side of caution.

Be as safe as you can, for as long as you can.


----------



## Just Jeff

IF you get sick, see an honest doctor or health care person/clinic.

However, realize, and get tested for regular old-time problems, 
as it is not cvd .   Cvd is and has been all in dispute since before it started.
It has been disproven repeatedly for years.
But people DO get sick or ill,  so DO see a someone as needed.

The whistle-blowers, doctors and scientists and microbiologists and virologists  and lay persons too 
all around the world
have shown 
the jabs is much much more risky and dangerous 
than any so-called cvd 
 and the jab 
DOES NOT confer ANY benefits nor protection.  

It is big money big money big money with control extorting/ deceiving the public on purpose, or even not on purpose,  but damaging people throughout society including children UNnecessarily with mandates, isolations, masks, shots,  and other incorrect methods.


----------



## SeniorBen

Listen to this video... it's the truth! We've been lining up for toilet paper... for what?!! Communism!


----------



## Alice_B

I've had my shots. I've had no problems. My husband did not and bless his heart he's gone now.


----------



## chic

John cycling said:


> The virus lie - 18 things you didn't know about polio <--
> 
> Examples:
> 
> #3 - Polio consists of symptoms synonymous with neurological damage, causing organ failure.
> 
> #4 - Heavy metal poisoning from lead, mercury and other similar heavy metals manifest lesions on neurological tissues, meaning the toxin destroys the nerve/communication pathways connecting the brain to the organs in the body.
> 
> #8 - Parents report finding their children paralyzed in and around apple orchards. One of the most heavily pesticide sprayed crops of the time (_with lead arsenate or copper arsenate_) were apple orchards.
> 
> #9 - President Roosevelt became paralyzed over night while at a summer retreat, which contained many crops, including apple orchards. He also swam the day prior in a bay that was heavily polluted by industrial agricultural run off.   (There's more information on the link about this.)
> 
> #12 - In 1956 the AMA instructed each licensed medical doctor that they could no longer classify polio as polio, or their license to practice would be terminated.  This is purposely designed to obfuscate the public’s understanding of what causes paralysis, which is heavy metal poisoning plus vaccine induced autoimmunity that ends with the body attacking and destroying its’ own nervous system pathways, in an rabid attempt to clean itself of the injected toxins.
> 
> #18 - People receiving the polio vaccine (_and other vaccines_) were much more likely to be ill in general and present polio like symptoms. Disease is not a poison deficiency. Disease is caused by a surplus of poisons and the documented toxins in all vaccines PACK A WALLOP!
> 
> See the link for more information.


I think they have determined that exposure to some form of contaminated water contributes to polio. Maybe that's why they won't let us collect rainwater anymore.


----------



## chic

Just Jeff said:


> IF you get sick, see an honest doctor or health care person/clinic.
> 
> However, realize, and get tested for regular old-time problems,
> as it is not cvd .   Cvd is and has been all in dispute since before it started.
> It has been disproven repeatedly for years.
> But people DO get sick or ill,  so DO see a someone as needed.
> 
> The whistle-blowers, doctors and scientists and microbiologists and virologists  and lay persons too
> all around the world
> have shown
> the jabs is much much more risky and dangerous
> than any so-called cvd
> and the jab
> DOES NOT confer ANY benefits nor protection.
> 
> It is big money big money big money with control extorting/ deceiving the public on purpose, or even not on purpose,  but damaging people throughout society including children UNnecessarily with mandates, isolations, masks, shots,  and other incorrect methods.


Some said "follow the money" from the outset. I took a wait and see approach. Now I agree it's been about the greatest transfer of wealth in human history, and subjugation of the masses.


----------



## chic

Is this still about the covid 19 vaccine? I thought they'd have moved us on to monkeypox by now?


----------



## Bella

Perhaps there are some people who might find this article from the NIH National Library of Medicine—National Center for Biotechnology Information interesting.

*COVID UPDATE: What is the truth? * By Dr. Russell Blaylock, a nationally recognized, board-certified neurosurgeon, health practitioner, author, and lecturer.   >>  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/ 


Bella


----------



## Just Jeff

Bella said:


> Perhaps there are some people who might find this article from the NIH National Library of Medicine—National Center for Biotechnology Information interesting.
> 
> *COVID UPDATE: What is the truth? * By Dr. Russell Blaylock, a nationally recognized, board-certified neurosurgeon, health practitioner, author, and lecturer.   >>  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/
> 
> 
> Bella


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/
quote>
"Has scientific evidence, carefully done studies, clinical experience and medical logic had any effect on stopping these ineffective and dangerous vaccines? Absolutely not! The draconian efforts to vaccinate everyone on the planet continues (except the elite, postal workers, members of Congress and other insiders).[31,62]

In the case of all other drugs and previous conventional vaccines under review by the FDA, the otherwise unexplained deaths of 50 or less individuals would result in a halt in further distribution of the product, as happened on 1976 with the swine flu vaccine. With over 18,000 deaths being reported by the VAERS system for the period December 14, 2020 and December 31st, 2021 as well as 139,126 serious injuries (including deaths) for the same period there is still no interest in stopping this deadly vaccine program.[61] Worse, there is no serious investigation by any government agency to determine why these people are dying and being seriously and permanently injured by these vaccines.[15,67] What we do see is a continuous series of coverups and evasions by the vaccine makers and their promoters."

"When this pandemic started, hospitals were ordered by the CDC
to follow a treatment protocol that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of patients, most of whom would have recovered had proper treatments been allowed.[43,44] The majority of these deaths could have been prevented had doctors been allowed to use early treatment...."

"The COVID-19 pandemic is one of the most manipulated infectious disease events in history, characterized by official lies in an unending stream lead by government bureaucracies, medical associations, medical boards, the media, and international agencies.[3,6,57] We have witnessed a long list of unprecedented intrusions into medical practice, including attacks on medical experts, destruction of medical careers among doctors refusing to participate in killing their patients and a massive regimentation of health care, led by non-qualified individuals with enormous wealth, power and influence."


----------



## Just Jeff

chic said:


> Is this still about the covid 19 vaccine? I thought they'd have moved us on to monkeypox by now?


Same deception,  same lack of truth,  same fake news, same methods of oppression,death,and sickness being caused etc etc etc blaming or accusing the viruses whether real or not.


----------



## chic

Just Jeff said:


> Same deception,  same lack of truth,  same fake news, same methods of oppression,death,and sickness being caused etc etc etc blaming or accusing the viruses whether real or not.


True but two years into this you'd think more people would get a clue?


----------



## Just Jeff

chic said:


> Some said "follow the money" from the outset. I took a wait and see approach. Now I agree it's been about the greatest transfer of wealth in human history, and subjugation of the masses.


I think you and a couple others realize "follow the money" does NOT mean to DO what the money says to do.  

That's just one way to see where the lies started,  at the top of politic and medico and bigfarma ,  to realize it is not at all to be healthy nor helpful to anyone except to make obscene profits from products and methods with no honesty, no integrity, even tho 'society' is day after day,  every minute,  told to believe them, to trust them even tho it causes illnesses and death to proliferate instead of reducing suffering at all.


----------



## Just Jeff

chic said:


> True but two years into this you'd think more people would get a clue?


Everyone reading this forum "gets a clue",  but what they do then varies considerably.    Most never ever suspected their family doctor fifty years ago was part of this debacle today,  that the system all along for all their lives was corrupt from the top down.  From birth they were told lies,  inadvertently we hope,  by their parents or guardians and churches and schools and politicians and doctors ,  so they were trained to believe what they were told from birth on, and most often never escape from that system which is still in place today and is horrendous in motive,  practice, and results every day.


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## Just Jeff

chic said:


> True but two years into this you'd think more people would get a clue?


diir===
argh,,  keybored moved  
Historically,  last century,  perhaps a hundred thousand doctors and millions of people realized from the evidence already present from 1950 to 1960 that the corporations were driving things this way to get where the world is today,  and they were sometimes very active and vocal about it,  warning,  and attempting to get the Federal Laws changed to permit the truth to be studies officially , legally,  promoted, and practiced as it had been before the Federal Laws were changed to prevent the truth from being taught ,  influenced mostly or paid for, bribes?,  by drug makers and the lobbyists.


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## Blessed

Have you ever been ill?  Any kind of illness?  Not just Covid. 

Have you ever had an accident that required medical care?

Have you ever had to have surgery?  

Do you go to the dentist?

Do you take any medication, prescription or OTC?


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