# Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do?



## Mr. Ed (Dec 23, 2021)

Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment? 

Mysterious is life and the multiple variations of reasoning that describes us as individuals. As individuals everyone lives according the story they present and the story they disguise sometimes from themselves and from public view. 

God is a form people create for themselves for whatever reasons. For some, God is good and God is not good and the consensus that God does not exist. God exists in everyone’s mind according to individual design. 

There is no right or wrong way to understand God. Whatever God may be to you God is as you believe.


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## Knight (Dec 23, 2021)

For me  the more science revealed the more disbelief I have in a supernatural being billions of years old living somewhere outside the known universe watching everyone is possible. Evolution is a fact that has been demonstrated so that is where my belief lies. 

For those that have a belief that supernatural being exists there is no reason to challenge that belief.


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## Pepper (Dec 23, 2021)

I was eight years old and in the third grade when my classmate & best friend Margaret shared with me that she was an atheist and what it meant.  I was shocked!  You mean, you don't have to believe in God?  WOW, lightbulb moment.  You are "allowed" to not believe?  So glad she told me.


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## Judycat (Dec 23, 2021)

I think most of the resentment goes to people in leadership positions, who claim special gifts given them by God, only to show their gifts are a sham to control and manipulate others. After a while it becomes too apparent what is going on and the followers give up, not only on the leadership, but also on God.


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## Gaer (Dec 23, 2021)

Deleted.  Not the correct audience.


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## chic (Dec 23, 2021)

I went to Catholic school and was indoctinated at an early age. Left church to be free. Went to college and was told by a career councilor I would make a good minister so I went to divinity school but I'm not good at pretending I have all the answers or at telling people what they should do. So I switched my major.  I have had angel experiences but not like @Gaer. They never spoke to me. Just made me feel loved and protected and that God was with me. So now I'm just an ordinary person who tries to be an angel for others. When I can.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 23, 2021)

Unavailable


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## David777 (Dec 23, 2021)

Many of us in the Western world have become far too busy with all manner of complexities, activities, especially career and leisure pursuits, to put much time into religion. Few people actually research why they should continue to be religious but rather rely on actions of others in the cultural herd to guide their course.  Many people whether politics, religion, or whatever don't think much themselves but rather tend to float along like flotsam in a river with what they think is popular.  

People may at some point opt out and then notice it doesn't seem to make any difference in their lives that grates against supposed benefits they have been preached to about.  Especially the dogma that God is intimately involved in everyone's life with supposed benefit doing so.  The Christian religion playbook over past centuries of all its denominations are no longer effective in this modern era of knowledge and science.  Centuries of supposedly inspired dogma, labyrinths of rigid church bureaucracies, dominant demand for inerrancy, stifles ability of churches to change course.  

Denominations have greatly reduced the value of eternal life as the main reason to seek God and instead talk about all manner of beneficial things one won't read in the New Testament.  Death, non-existence is like sex, a difficult subject to discuss, especially when there is so little passed on about what that is. Some just imagine heavenly spirits floating about in clouds singing and strumming harps in continual praise forever to the Father. Others proclaim with total confidence it will be vastly more awesome than anything one can imagine. The old strategy of playing up the scare tactic of going to hell has fallen flat since it is at best vaguely supported in the New Testament. 

No. Eternal life is what Jesus clearly preached. If one has not come to understand why that has value, one is not likely to have interest.   Consider how immensely deeply sad your heart and mind felt when someone you loved greatly died.  Read the New Testament yourself, especially John and Luke.  Sin in this world against even the simple list of the Ten Commandments has much worldly advantages with pleasures many would rather choose since it is a sure thing while one lives. Besides many enjoy blurting out G!@ D!@# or F!@# for slightest reasons.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 23, 2021)

The Roots of Religion: Genevieve Von Petzinger at TEDxVictoria​A PhD student in Anthropology at the University of Victoria, Genevieve Von Petzinger's main area of interest is understanding the geometric imagery of European Ice Age rock art and how we can use this type of behavior to identify cognitive and symbolic evolution in modern humans. Her work was featured on the cover of New Scientist in 2010 and Science Illustrated in 2011, and she has also appeared on the Discovery Channel's popular program Daily Planet.





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## Mr. Ed (Dec 23, 2021)

True and I agree, death of myself or others does not concern me, except the for possibility of loss. 

I enjoy discussing theology, afterlife, death, religion, mind control/persuasion, the unknown, views and  speculations about anything that is no known and can be proven.


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## Irwin (Dec 23, 2021)

I really have no interest in religion other than its impact on society, and it has a _huge _impact on society — most of it bad. Kim Potter's attorney tried to get her released until sentencing because "she's a Catholic and wants to celebrate the holidays." Uh, boy.


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## dseag2 (Dec 23, 2021)

I believe that there is some greater form that created us, but I absolutely do not believe in organized religion.  I believe as I do because of the many years I had conservative religion shoved down my throat while seeing so many disingenuous people profess to be religious while they did harm to others.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 23, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> * the unknown, views and  speculations about anything that is no known and can be proven.*


 I will speculate that the "no" is "not". If something is unknown how is it possible to prove fill in the blank  ? Maybe you have already reached "Enlightenment", and dualism is foreign to you?


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## Irwin (Dec 23, 2021)

Sometimes I think I might like to go off and be a monk somewhere, and just meditate and study somebody's teachings. I have no idea whose teachings, though.


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## IFortuna (Dec 24, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?
> 
> Mysterious is life and the multiple variations of reasoning that describes us as individuals. As individuals everyone lives according the story they present and the story they disguise sometimes from themselves and from public view.
> 
> ...



Image by Dr. Andrew Newberg

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539#Different-religions-have-different-effects


Image by Dr. Jeff Anderson, PhD
"Devoutly religious participants showed increased activity in the brain’s nucleus accumbens"

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539#Religion-is-like-sex,-drugs,-and-rock-n-roll

In my opinion, there is a right way to discern who God is, the Bible and prayer. Otherwise, there is no way to understand God, that is in Christianity.  
The brain is where all the beliefs are centered and modified according to our individual experiences. To me, the importance is to whom we direct our prayers and thoughts to in consideration of our expectations.


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 24, 2021)

We've been worshipping deities for hundreds of thousands of years, so we must get something out of it.  I think it depends on the deity. What we want or need, that is what the deity provides for us.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 25, 2021)

about prayer, prayer is merely a request to something called God. I cannot explain God, but in my opinion God is greater and grander than words can describe. Praying to God is praying to you, to me and everything of everything, God is..


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## Larry67 (Dec 28, 2021)

I am agnostic, I can't prove or disprove god. I "believe" in nature. I certainly have seen no evidence of religious people treating their fellow humans with more compassion than non-believers.


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## Alice November (Dec 28, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> about prayer, prayer is merely a request to something called God. I cannot explain God, but in my opinion God is greater and grander than words can describe. Praying to God is praying to you, to me and everything of everything, God is..


Yes for sure I can agree that to be called 'Gd' pretty much means:  To Be Everywhere in Everything and in Everything in Between Everything, otherwise not worthy of The Name.

I guess following upon That, praying to anything else would be pretty much useless. I just mean there is not as much power to do anything in things as compared to That.. which is not a thing like other things.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 29, 2021)

People get hung up with term called "God" based on one's perception of God. However, on a similar note, someone opposed to God may see God in nature, life and the unexplained, but refuse to call these things God. 

God is you, me and everything that is possible as well as the impossible by human standards. Many people use the Bible as proof of God's existence, however, I do not find reading the Bible  necessary to be as One with God. The same is true with church attendance, God exists with or without these things. People who need to refresh their beliefs by attending and conducting religious rituals sometimes fail to understand there are those like myself are naturally in tune with God as One.


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## Alice November (Dec 29, 2021)

Yes well, if all that is true, even what we think of as problems or mistakes are allpart of it as well.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?...


Mr. Ed, your opening post and questions are good ones. "Life's experiences", as well as genetics, environment, culture, peer pressure, media pressure, etc do shape us into who we become as we grow from infant through childhood...but there comes a time when we mature into adults to a point of making our own choices as to what is right or wrong, what is good or evil, what makes good sense and what doesn't...based on our own studies. 

What I don't understand is why adults blame Christianity as a whole for those who are "wolves in sheeps clothing" who we are told to beware of, for those who are hypocrites claiming to be Christians but not. Those who do more harm than good over and over again are not Christians even if they say they are, even if they call themselves preachers. I find them easy to spot and avoid them. But I don't place blame on all of Christianity for their damaging hypocrisy. Unfortunately, they do cause disbelief and and resentment among the weak who really believe these hypocrites are real Christians.


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## Liberty (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> about prayer, prayer is merely a request to something called God. I cannot explain God, but in my opinion God is greater and grander than words can describe. Praying to God is praying to you, to me and everything of everything, God is..


Perhaps we can say its all about "awareness"...you are far ahead of the average 3rd dimensional mind when you can say that "God is greater and grander than words can describe".   Becoming aware of  "the greater goodness" is a 4th dimensional precept - and that is what we, as souls  are seeking - enlightened consciusness.


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## JaniceM (Dec 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> Mr. Ed, your opening post and questions are good ones. "Life's experiences", as well as genetics, environment, culture, peer pressure, media pressure, etc do shape us into who we become as we grow from infant through childhood...but there comes a time when we mature into adults to a point of making our own choices as to what is right or wrong, what is good or evil, what makes good sense and what doesn't...based on our own studies.
> 
> What I don't understand is why adults blame Christianity as a whole for those who are "wolves in sheeps clothing" who we are told to beware of, for those who are hypocrites claiming to be Christians but not. Those who do more harm than good over and over again are not Christians even if they say they are, even if they call themselves preachers. I find them easy to spot and avoid them. But I don't place blame on all of Christianity for their damaging hypocrisy. Unfortunately, they do cause disbelief and and resentment among the weak who really believe these hypocrites are real Christians.


Not meaning to go off topic, but re: your second paragraph- perhaps it is because those who are as you described (hypocrites, do more harm than good, etc.) somehow took over the word and too many people now believe that's the correct definition of a Christian.


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## rgp (Dec 29, 2021)

I sometimes just shake my head when I hear people say .... after a natural disaster [like the recent Kentucky tornados] .......... I surely do thank God for spareing us ....... I always think to myself .... well then do you also thank him for killing the others ? .......... I mean isn't he in charge of / responsable for, it all.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

JaniceM, I do believe too many people are deceived by the wolve's in sheep's clothing, but I don't think they've taken over the Word...except maybe on the Internet. The internet is the devils playground to deceive which is powerful, I agree. Just like the media.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

rgp...just because people are grateful that God spared their lives does not mean God killed anyone. As you know, we aren't meant to live forever. We are all going to die eventually. There are over a 100 reasons why one dies at one time and another dies at another time...or why one suffers and another goes quickly. Perhaps one's purpose is complete here on earth and the other's isn't.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 29, 2021)

I was on a Atheist forum for a few weeks. I introduced the concept that atheism is a belief. Whoops! They jumped on me like they were tigers being fed raw meat. One women claimed that it ruined her life ( the religious indoctrination ) and should absolutely be eliminated from mankind. They had NO flexibility. I can understand how they got to that position because of the damage it does to people. ( we all know this ).
  I seems to be a delusion to believe that one's beliefs are the ONLY way. I have studied the essential unity of all religions. Most all them understand man can't conceive of "God". They all practice some kind of ritual to connect with this essence. 
   My experience has brought me to a place where I think the universe evolved humans with the basic instinct to unite with itself. We feel separated from the universe because of all the distractions and survival needs. I try to live in the present moment and include the awareness of this connection.


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## JaniceM (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?
> 
> Mysterious is life and the multiple variations of reasoning that describes us as individuals. As individuals everyone lives according the story they present and the story they disguise sometimes from themselves and from public view.
> 
> ...


I was raised with no religion, and actively kept away from it.. which never made any sense to me.  When I was in my twenties I decided to follow a specific religion solely as a way to feel connected to some ancestors.  However, it became much more than that a few years later when/because two things occurred:  one was I had the flu and while resting up was rereading an old copy of the Diary of Anne Frank;  the other was a 12-year-old girl was abducted while riding her bike home from church where her father was minister, and it was presumed she'd been murdered.  

My questioning was how/why..  the Holocaust and an innocent child...  and the answers solidified my faith/beliefs:  
God does not stop bad things and evil because He does not interfere with free will..  to do so would take away one of the most essential parts of a human being.  
While individuals are born as basically clean slates, each has the capacity for both free will and conscience...  unfortunately too many only use the free will part and ignore conscience entirely.  So too often innocent people are harmed/destroyed as the result.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I was on a Atheist forum for a few weeks. I introduced the concept that atheism is a belief. Whoops! They jumped on me like they were tigers being fed raw meat.


That is interesting...  Of course atheism is a belief.  One cannot prove the negative, certainly not in this case.  I am agnostic and pretty skeptical about the existence of a god, but I have to admit to uncertainty.


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## rgp (Dec 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> rgp...just because people are grateful that God spared their lives does not mean God killed anyone. As you know, we aren't meant to live forever. We are all going to die eventually. There are over a 100 reasons why one dies at one time and another dies at another time...or why one suffers and another goes quickly. Perhaps one's purpose is complete here on earth and the other's isn't.




   I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?


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## Capt Lightning (Dec 29, 2021)

rgp said:


> I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?


Exactly.  We may have free will to choose many things in life, but what about children born with deformities or incurable diseases?  Who are you going to blame for that?


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## JaniceM (Dec 29, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> Exactly.  We may have free will to choose many things in life, but what about children born with deformities or incurable diseases?  Who are you going to blame for that?


God does not make mistakes.. but nature does


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 29, 2021)

JaniceM said:


> God does not make mistakes.. but nature does


God created nature so it could make mistakes? Is that so we either follow natures way ( bad ) or follow God's way/word ( good )? Just asking so i can understand what you mean.


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## Nathan (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> about prayer, prayer is merely a request to something called God. I cannot explain God, but in my opinion God is greater and grander than words can describe. Praying to God is praying to you, to me and everything of everything, God is..


Well said.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 29, 2021)

I just remembered something I read in the Bible..paraphrased "There is no excuse to not believe in God because we can know what he is like by observing nature." Isn't that in there somewhere? The idea that nature makes mistakes then means that God makes mistakes. I am all confused.
yep here it is

Romans 1:20

King James Bible
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, _even_ his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


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## Knight (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> True and I agree, death of myself or others does not concern me, except the for possibility of loss.
> 
> I enjoy discussing theology, afterlife, death, religion, mind control/persuasion, the unknown, views and  speculations about anything that is no known and can be proven.





JaniceM said:


> God does not stop bad things and evil because He does not interfere with free will..  to do so would take away one of the most essential parts of a human being.


 If there is supposed to be a supernatural with a plan for each of us.
1. Jeremiah 29:11​"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

There is contradiction in what people believe.  Having a plan indicates to me free will isn't a reality. Good or evil  has to fall under a plan.


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## David777 (Dec 29, 2021)

Maybe, no probably the Bible is not inerrant and has been manipulated over centuries by those that think they were inspired.  Just like they manipulated Moses OT books with endless rituals Jesus complained about.
Maybe an immensely powerful entity but not all powerful that I term a UIE?  
Maybe not everywhere but rather always localized or an immense distributed machine?  
Maybe not eternal but rather unimaginably ancient?  
Maybe not all knowing while knowing vastly more than we can even imagine?  
Maybe not all benevolent accordingly to our human moral sense but merely mostly so?  I doubt our human ideas of morality and ethics fully square with that of a UIE level entity.  
Maybe his thinking has changed over time though during the existence of us concerning us, maybe unchanging maybe not?  Does that in fact matter especially since IMO that is illogical?  
Maybe he didn’t really create all our universe but rather exists within it? 
Maybe God doesn't constantly affect his Universe but rather once put in motion, he allows it to flow naturally. 
Maybe God didn’t create the universe but created DNA life within it?  
Maybe he isn’t the only god or UIE but rather the only one within our space time?  
Maybe God has limitations of traveling through distances of space per the speed of light?  
Maybe God and his angels are not aware of every thought all of us make throughout our lifetimes or maybe just external actions of the minor numbers baptised on the path to salvation?   
Maybe God is so distant in Heaven with the speed of light a true limitation in the Universe, that he can only affect us through earth local angels or machines and the Holy Spirit with some level of powers left here on Earth? 
Maybe we shouldn't blame God for everything happening negative or positive because the dogma he is controlling everything is false, is not supported clearly in the Bible, and IMO is not logically how a God would be.


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## Alice November (Dec 29, 2021)

I like religions and religious people, they have a stablilty. I also appreciate how religions have informed culture, society, families, marraige, law, universities, government and even architecure and urban planning, art, creativity, and much more as avenues to meditation, imagination, worship and more. I like religions so much I read about them and admire their traditions and I take a lot from them and practice some of them, well, 4 of them. They seem to have a good idea about what life is all about. I think Gd is in all of it. And of course I'm pretty sure they all admit Gd is even bigger than all of that too, bigger than all the rules and traditions etc. We ourselves aren't that big though as near as I can see, especially recently I haven't seen humans doing so well.

  🕊  🕊


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## Irwin (Dec 29, 2021)

Most of us have the ability to think logically, and logically, the supernatural isn't possible. But if the ability to think logically was given to us by God, that presents itself with a conundrum. How are we supposed to accept God on faith alone? Wouldn't that be going against God's intentions, since he is responsible for our ability to think logically?


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

rgp said:


> ...if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ....then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ....If he even exsist ?


My faith-based answer is: Satan and natural consequences are blamed for all that is bad.
But God created you to have the ability to choose what you believe and He wants you to do just that. 
So I would never try to change your mind.


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## palides2021 (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?
> 
> Mysterious is life and the multiple variations of reasoning that describes us as individuals. As individuals everyone lives according the story they present and the story they disguise sometimes from themselves and from public view.
> 
> ...


This is a complicated statement and I honestly think it cannot be answered in a few paragraphs. There are theological classes in universities that spend hours on this topic of belief. If we only rely on the head for answers, we forget about the heart. Given that, I would never try and change anyone's mind about their belief in God. That's up to Him to do.

I am only going to try and answer Ed's question about why I believe in God, and it's because of miracles and because of the Holy Spirit. Please do not reply to this post because I don't really want to have a discussion. You will not change my mind. This is just a testimonial. Thank you for understanding!

I grew up in an Orthodox religious family. My parents come from an island in Greece that neighbored Patmos Island, where St. John lived in a cave. I have been to that cave and seen the indentation on the wall where St. John's head rested each day as he kneeled and prayed to God. He is the one who took Jesus's mother Mary to live with him and he is the one who wrote the Book of Revelations. I also saw the lightning strike that was written about in his cave. The monastery of Patmos ruled over my parent's island for many centuries, and the monks used the land for crops, etc. During Greece's war of Indpendence from the Turks in 1821, many refugees moved to this tiny island. My ancestors were some of them. A miracle occurred on the island in the 1940s when a peasant girl was praying to the icon of Virgin Mary holding the body of the crucified Christ. This icon is called "Panagia too Harou." The peasant girl's wish came true and she placed a stem of lilies on the icon as a token of appreciation. The lilies withered, but the following anniversary day in August, the lilies bloomed. They placed the lilies underneath the glass cover of the icon and each year the lilies bloom during that period. I have seen this happen. They consider this a miracle and each year have a parade around the island to commemorate this miracle.

I also believe in God because I have received visions through my dreams - many have come true. I have also experienced miracles in my own life, which according to nature, I would have died several times by now. This belief is deep inside me, inside my heart, inside my soul, and I feel this  immense joy in knowing that God is there for me. I pray to Him every day and I have prayed for several people every day. I also get an immense joy when I see people helping each other. These are my thoughts. God bless and have a wonderful day!


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## Capt Lightning (Dec 29, 2021)

Modern Man didn't just appear.  They appeared after many of iterations and improvements over about 2.5 million years.   Of course, man wasn't the first life on Earth.  From primitive life forms, through marine life, dinosaurs and early mammals, somehow it arrived  at Homo Sapiens, and here we are.  Of course, it seems very unlikely that we are the only ones.  After all there about 100 Billion stars in the Milky way and around 2 Trillion galaxies in the universe.

I can understand ancient man trying to make sense of they could see around them and it was not unreasonable for them to think that they must have been created by a 'god'. .  We are but specks of stardust, but day by day, we're  learning more and maybe one day we will understand how we came to be here - without having to invent a supernatural being.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> about prayer, prayer is merely a request to something called God...Praying to God is praying to you, to me and everything of everything, God is..



My own Faith-based response is below...and yours is yours above...not trying to change you.

My prayers are not "merely requests" nor do I "pray to myself" nor "to everything". I look at my prayers first as praise, then creating in me a clean heart through confession of sins, repenting, receiving forgiveness and a then renewing His Holy Spirit within me.

If I can't think of specific sins, I speak generically. I ask that He restores in me the joy of my salvation. Then I pour out all my gratitude as I'm always filled full of being thankful.

Then I request specific blessings, healings, and guidance for my family, friends in this SF forum, our nation, our leaders, worldwide issues, and little things as well...maybe a stranger I passed on the street, an animal, etc. Then I say, "In Jesus Name I pray amen"...which is basically "if it be thy will, then thy will be done".


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## fmdog44 (Dec 29, 2021)

Why think about stuff like this when you know there is no correct answer? The truth will be revealed to you after your eyes close.


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## Pepper (Dec 29, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> The truth will be revealed to you after your eyes close.


Or not.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

Knight said:


> Jeremiah 29:11​"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
> 
> There is contradiction in what people believe.  Having a plan indicates to me free will isn't a reality. Good or evil  has to fall under a plan.



This is not a contradiction at all.

The Lord has "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
As you know, you were created with a free will to say "yes, I accept your plan" or "no, I don't want to follow your plan. I'll do it my way"

If you choose to make your own way, it likely won't be as prosperous according to the scripture verse you posted, it could even harm you, and you may end up without as good of a future. But you are free to choose to do it your way or to choose His way.

There are no contradictions in the Bible.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Why think about stuff like this when you know there is no correct answer? The truth will be revealed to you after your eyes close.


Because it will be to late to choose to love God after "we close our eyes" since we'll be dead. God the Father and Jesus the Son want us to choose by faith while we are still living so we can enjoy the blessings of a loving relationship with Him now. Life here on earth is all about Love.


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## rgp (Dec 29, 2021)

JaniceM said:


> God does not make mistakes.. but nature does



 Isn't God in charge of it all ? ..........Oh that's right only the good stuff ........I forgot <sarc>


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## Irwin (Dec 29, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Or not.


That's what I was thinking.


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## Nathan (Dec 29, 2021)

JaniceM said:


> God does not make mistakes.. but nature does


I was going to take exception to the comment above, but just then I remembered:


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## Mizmo (Dec 29, 2021)

I was raised in a strong Catholic environment. Living up to the the bible was the rule.
The local priest and Monsignor who visited once a month  put the 'fear of God' in to us as children and as was expressed by adults.
Note, I used the common expression 'Fear of God"
How did that happen. Why should we fear God ?
So I won't go any further than to say as I got older and reached the age of reasoning as they say I formed my own beliefs.
I do believe we have some strong force urging us on but feel it is up to us as individuals to lead our own lives in the best possible way we can and allow others to do likewise no matter their beliefs. To each his own.
Treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves  ....now I feel a rant coming on so will stop.......


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## Alligatorob (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> The question of belief is not what but why do we believe as we do?


I only believe what I can see that makes logical sense to me.  

At this point in life it does not include a god, just never seen any objective evidence for one.


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## Knight (Dec 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> This is not a contradiction at all.
> 
> The Lord has "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
> As you know, you were created with a free will to say "yes, I accept your plan" or "no, I don't want to follow your plan. I'll do it my way"
> ...


We, my wife & I have prospered. Not willing to say how much financially, but well enough to be able to live above middle class in retirement. But financially isn't the only measure of prospering. 3 great sons all self sufficient & contributing to society.

If God plans to prosper you and according to you,  you accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering? Or those born  handicapped that will never prosper? Exactly who fits the criteria to enjoy the plan to prosper if there are millions perhaps billions world wide that have faith in a creator yet aren't prospering?

The bible has some pretty scary stuff in it. Like the wrath of a creator that killed all mankind except Noah. Then there is a nice part about how animals are good & bad yet got a spot on the ark. Don't know how this was accomplished. Recent studies estimate the total number of living and extinct kinds of land animals and flying creatures to be about 1,500. With our “worst-case” scenario approach to calculating the number of animals on the Ark, this would mean that Noah cared for approximately 7,000 animals. All those for
Jan 29, 2012 — It may have only rained 40 days and 40 nights, but Scripture tells us they remained on board the _Ark_ for over a year! It says Noah was 600 years ...
https://sevensinthebible.com › 2012/01/29 › genesis-8-...


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## Tabby Ann (Dec 29, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?


I think you are right that beliefs are created by life experiences. Everyone needs a moral code to live by, and I agree with Thomas Jefferson, who didn’t endorse any particular religion, but said “The teachings of Jesus Christ provide the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man.” These teachings are straightforward and defined in Gospels. God on the other hand, is something each man has created in his own image and no one can define God, and most who claim to believe or not in God, can’t even define what it is they do or don’t believe in. Albert Einstein said he believed in a God who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the universe.


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

@Knight...I sincerely am happy for how well and happy your family is. Doing this all on your own is amazing and you deserve  all the fruits of your labor. Sounds like God is well pleased with you and perhaps your father before you. Scripture talks about the affects of the fathers upon their children for up to 3 generations in some cases.

Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).

The homeless are their own person and their relationship with God is personal. Only God knows their hearts and only He knows if they are truly Christian believers. And we don't know God's plan for them whether they're believers or not. Maybe God is teaching them or humbling them or "polishing" them first with tests or experiences before blessing them with prosperity.

We can't guess nor assume what God is thinking. We're not on His level. I choose to trust His perfect plan which extends beyond this short life on into eternity. This life is a speck in the big picture.

I don't discuss the Old Testament. I respect it as a valuable historical documentation, through God, of creation and life before Christ, wisdom, lessons, etc. But when Christ was born with the purpose of offering believers forgiveness for our sins rather than punishment/sacrifices, that changed everything from "scary stuff", as you say, to grace and love. That's why "Christ" is in "Christian" and defines my faith. When I pray I always close with "In Jesus name I pray, amen"


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## dseag2 (Dec 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> Mr. Ed, your opening post and questions are good ones. "Life's experiences", as well as genetics, environment, culture, peer pressure, media pressure, etc do shape us into who we become as we grow from infant through childhood...but there comes a time when we mature into adults to a point of making our own choices as to what is right or wrong, what is good or evil, what makes good sense and what doesn't...based on our own studies.
> 
> What I don't understand is why adults blame Christianity as a whole for those who are "wolves in sheeps clothing" who we are told to beware of, for those who are hypocrites claiming to be Christians but not. Those who do more harm than good over and over again are not Christians even if they say they are, even if they call themselves preachers. I find them easy to spot and avoid them. But I don't place blame on all of Christianity for their damaging hypocrisy. Unfortunately, they do cause disbelief and and resentment among the weak who really believe these hypocrites are real Christians.


Sorry, but I don't consider myself weak because I have chosen to identify that there are many Christians who are disingenuous.  From my experience, I know there are many churchgoers that are strong believers and good people.  It has been the leaders of the church that have not been good people, and those that have chosen to follow them have been duped.  There are so many examples.  

"Weak"?  I think not.  I am strong enough to have my own beliefs.

https://stories.avvo.com/nakedlaw/b...hy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html


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## Lara (Dec 29, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> Sorry, but I don't consider myself weak because I have chosen to identify that there are many Christians who are disingenuous.  From my experience, I know there are many churchgoers that are strong believers and good people.  It has been the leaders of the church that have not been good people, and those that have chosen to follow them have been duped.  There are so many examples.
> 
> "Weak"?  I think not.  I am strong enough to have my own beliefs.
> 
> https://stories.avvo.com/nakedlaw/b...hy-preachers-under-federal-investigation.html



You misunderstood my post it seems. Those who blame true Christians as a whole for religious imposters are weak to see the difference. If "Christians" are disingenuous, as you say, then they are not Christians, as God says. The choice of wording as "weak" is maybe not the perfect word but you get my drift...unless you don't. This is what I said...

_"What I don't understand is why adults blame Christianity as a whole for those who are "wolves in sheeps clothing" who we are told to beware of, for those who are hypocrites claiming to be Christians but not. Those who do more harm than good over and over again are *not Christians* even if they say they are, even if they call themselves preachers. I find them easy to spot and avoid them. But I don't place blame on all of Christianity for their damaging hypocrisy. Unfortunately, __they do cause disbelief and and resentment among the weak who __*really believe these hypocrites are real Christians.*_

PS...I didn't mean to offend you and I'm not trying to change your mind. I thank you for the opportunity to clarify. There will always be bad apples trying to spoil the bushel of good apples. Don't blame the good apples. It's the other way around.


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## oldpop (Dec 29, 2021)

I believe in a power that is greater than myself. I have seen that power work. If you look closely you will too. I gave up trying to figure it out. I have come to the conclusion that whatever it is it is beyond my comprehension. I do not worship it. I accept the fact that it exists and I am comfortable with that. More importantly to me is learning how to become a better human being. I have good days and bad days but everyday I try to move a little more in the that direction.


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## Knight (Dec 29, 2021)

Just using the you in your post #47.

Quote
"This is not a contradiction at all.

The Lord has "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future".
As you know, you were created with a free will to say "yes, I accept your plan" or "no, I don't want to follow your plan. I'll do it my way"

Post #56
Your second paragraph is a little confusing. You say you, you, you, 3 times but then switch to the homeless in the same sentence. What happens between God and I does not affect the homeless (unless I'm specifically praying for them of course and if it's God's will).

I'll break down what I wrote

If God plans to prosper [1st.you] and according to [2nd. you], [3rd.you] accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?


1st. If God plans to prosper you,<--- that you refers to all,  maybe better written as every human on earth.

2nd. According to you, that you refers to LARA.

3rd. You,<--- back to the you meaning all  as in every human on earth.        --- accept the plan. Why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?

The plan for everyone to prosper, not harm & give hope doesn't distinguish between those with faith or not. It's a straight forward declaration.


1. Jeremiah 29:11​"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Kind of difficult to understand that "not to harm" when according to the bible mankind was murdered  except Noah & his family that were the only survivors of a flood.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I was going to take exception to the comment above, but just then I remembered:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From your post, I see that you determined that the platypus is a mistake? Personally, I do not have the authority to determine if a life form is a mistake. Has anyone seen a two-headed turtle or snake with two head? What about Siamese Twins, or babies born connected to one another? Granted these examples may be extreme, just the same they are mistakes of nature. Society determines the norm and although what may be determined a deformity is classified as such because society deems it this way. Yet, despite judgement from society, there are no mistakes in nature only variations.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 30, 2021)

"Focusing on a single entity to blame doesn’t make sense to me.

@rgp said "I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?”

God exists, but not in the way you describe God to be. Sure God is recognized as the father figure of existence, but perhaps God is also every living and non-live being in partnership with one another? I cannot explain God but I accept God as I understand my God to be. There is within me a godly spirit who gives me peace and understanding of the world as I see it. I call it God.


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## Lara (Dec 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> If God plans to prosper...why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering?...The plan for everyone to prosper, not harm & give hope doesn't distinguish between those with faith or not. It's a straight forward declaration.
> "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:11



Before Jeremiah 29:11 can be applied, it must first be understood in context. This is is the long version. If you read nothing else, read the last two paragraphs. When interpreting Scripture, keep in mind the distinction between a passage’s meaning and the same passage’s application...a passage can have only one meaning, but it may have many applications.Jeremiah 29:11 is no different. The verse has only one meaning.

In the primary application, Jeremiah 29:11 has nothing to do with any person living today. This verse applied only to the Jews in the Old Testament who were in exile in Babylon during the sixth century BC. However, the sentiment expressed is so beautiful and encouraging, is there not any sense in which it applies today? The answer is, yes.

Jeremiah 29:11 has other applications. In particular, this verse reflects a more general principle of God’s grace and affections for those whom He loves, including the modern church. This more general application can be made because of the unchanging nature of God.

In the Old Testament God had promised to bring Israel back; therefore, the exiles could be assured that they had a future and a hope. This promise was not made to all nations at the time, but only to Israel. Likewise, God has promised believers in Christ certain things that are not applicable to the human race in general.

For those who are in Christ, God has promised that our sins are forgiven and we stand before God justified. God has plans for those in Christ, and those plans are good.

Believers in Christ can be confident that all things will work together for our good and that God has a future planned for us. We have hope that “does not put us to shame”. We have been given promises to rely on, just as Israel was. So, if by quoting Jeremiah 29:11 we are thinking of our security in Christ, then the wording is appropriate, even if the historical context does not apply.

A word of caution, however, that Jeremiah 29:11 can be misused as well. First, it is sometimes wrongly applied to humanity in general. Strictly speaking, the promise of Jeremiah 29:11 does not apply to every human being, but only those who are in Christ. Perhaps it could even be extended as part of the invitation to receive Christ: “If you come to Him, He promises you a future and a hope!” Outside of Christ, the only Savior, there is no future and no hope (see John 3:18).

The second danger of using this verse without understanding the context is the same as the danger of taking Romans 8:28 out of context. Jeremiah 29:11 promised that the nation of Israel would be restored, but very few of the exiles lived to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later. Most of them died without seeing the future that God had planned. Likewise, the future and hope we have in Christ are not a guarantee that things will go well in this life. For most believers throughout history and in the world today, the world is a cold and dangerous place. In fact, the promise outlined in Romans 8:28 is specifically that, even though believers will face all sorts of dangers and persecutions in this life (trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, sword—see verse 35), Christ will never abandon them. In this life, believers have hope because of the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, but the future and the hope and the prosperity that God has planned for believers will be fully realized only _after_ this life of suffering is over.


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## Knight (Dec 30, 2021)

Quite lengthy & conflicted. To follow the thread title I'll pick out a few sentences to demonstrate why my belief in a supernatural power watching over ALL mankind doesn't work for me. 

Begins with.
Quote
"In the Old Testament God had promised to bring Israel back; therefore, the exiles could be assured that they had a future and a hope."

Then there is this
Quote
" Jeremiah 29:11 promised that the nation of Israel would be restored, but very few of the exiles lived to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later."

Quote
"Believers in Christ can be confident that all things will work together for our good and that God has a future planned for us." <----For OUR good 

Quote
"For those who are in Christ, God has promised that our sins are forgiven and we stand before God justified. God has plans for those in Christ, and those plans are good."<----Plans limited to those in Christ.

Interpreting the bible to fit whatever makes anyone comfortable is great. For me far to many inconsistencies.


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## Lara (Dec 30, 2021)

Again you have quoted things out of context to give an "inconsistent" perspective. Some non-believers just don't want to see clearly. Or they can't because "clouds" get in their way.  For instance, in context "ours" refers to "us" which refers to the body of Christ aka Christians.

Another example of "out of context" inconsistencies. You said God promised to restore Israel but the exiles didn't live long enough to to see the fulfillment of that prophecy 70 years later. 

Umm, you left off the part that said, "Christ will never abandon them. In this life...the future and the hope and the prosperity that God has planned for believers will be fully realized only _after_ this life of suffering is over."

Why did you leave that off?
`


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## JaniceM (Dec 30, 2021)

rgp said:


> Isn't God in charge of it all ? ..........Oh that's right only the good stuff ........I forgot <sarc>


I was going to say if you'd actually read my posts you know that is not what I said..  
However, some advice I was given long ago by an Admin of another forum came to mind...  he said when someone is clearly trying to pick a fight, trying to bait me into an argument, it's usually better to just shrug it off and walk away from it.  

*shrugs.. walks away*


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## JaniceM (Dec 30, 2021)

Knight said:


> If there is supposed to be a supernatural with a plan for each of us.
> 1. Jeremiah 29:11​"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
> 
> There is contradiction in what people believe.  Having a plan indicates to me free will isn't a reality. Good or evil  has to fall under a plan.


You have a few posts in this thread but this is the first one I found, and seems to be directed to me.
To clarify, I don't know if "my" viewpoint on this is a widely-held viewpoint or not:

The way I look at it:  if you've seen a movie multiple times or read a book such as a novel multiple times, you "know" everything that is going to happen, what the characters will do, and the outcome..  but even though you know all of these things, you aren't orchestrating or controlling those things.  And the way I see it, similarly, God "knows" every aspect of a person's life from start to finish, but is not orchestrating or controlling it. 

Also, trying to recall one of your other posts-  I believe God wants the best for EVERYBODY, good happy prosperous lives.  But while nature can interfere (such as a child born with disabilities), so can free will-  a person's life can go off track or even end due to that person's or someone else's use of their free will.


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## Nathan (Dec 30, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> From your post, I see that you determined that the platypus is a mistake?


I frequently look for an opportunity to interject a lighthearted comment, even in "serious" conversations.   

I regard the platypus as evidence that God has a sense of humor.


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## Mr. Ed (Dec 30, 2021)

Ahh! Satire


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## David777 (Dec 30, 2021)

In this Internet information and modern science era for the anti-religious, it is easy to find Bible passages to criticize or show as inconsistent and then rigidly conclude the whole book is of little worth.  But this is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.  It is exasperated by denominations strongly pushing inerrancy, that every word in the book is Holy Spirit inspired making it easy targets for critics.  For example Noah's Flood story are favorite passages to ridicule while fundamentalist Young Earth Creationists loudly stubbornly, impossibly, try to defend such.

But if one actually studies scholars work through centuries, that will show they had far less such inerrant beliefs versus church authorities and their politicians who had a public agenda of keeping control of their flock.  If one analyzes the OT Bible from the perspective that much was not written by inspired scribes, nor later interpreted exactly by Greeks, was much edited over centuries by scribes controlled by politicians, then one can interpret the book with much historic value though with limited certainty.  The New Testament on the other hand is more reliable but for decades in the first century was only passed down through oral tradition, not written down, and the minor differences between synoptic gospels shows that and in fact on analysis makes it far more believable.  Don't dismiss the Bible because of  what men with agendas have interpreted and written but seek its true wisdom.


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## Knight (Dec 30, 2021)

JaniceM said:


> The way I look at it:  if you've seen a movie multiple times or read a book such as a novel multiple times, you "know" everything that is going to happen, what the characters will do, and the outcome..  but even though you know all of these things, you aren't orchestrating or controlling those things.  And the way I see it, similarly, God "knows" every aspect of a person's life from start to finish, but is not orchestrating or controlling it.


I'm not going to copy & paste the verses. 
15 VERSES THAT PROVE GOD HAS A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE
https://therescuedletters.com/15-verses-that-prove-god-has-a-plan-for-your-life/

Again I'm not understanding how God can plan the lives of every human yet not orchestrate it.  I'm guessing free will the catch all for any deviation from the plan is the culprit.  According to the bible the last time mankind deviated the merciful supernatural being billions of years old referred to as God murdered everyone but Noah & his family. Considering the difference in population growth is it possible a certain percent has to deviate from plans?


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## JaniceM (Dec 31, 2021)

Knight said:


> I'm not going to copy & paste the verses.
> 15 VERSES THAT PROVE GOD HAS A PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE
> https://therescuedletters.com/15-verses-that-prove-god-has-a-plan-for-your-life/
> 
> Again I'm not understanding how God can plan the lives of every human yet not orchestrate it.  I'm guessing *free will the catch all for any* *deviation from the plan is the culprit.*  According to the bible the last time mankind deviated the merciful supernatural being billions of years old referred to as God murdered everyone but Noah & his family. Considering the difference in population growth is it possible a certain percent has to deviate from plans?


Re:  the bolded part-  yes, I believe that is usually the case.

As for the Flood, and the reasons behind it-  I honestly don't have an answer to that.


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## Mizmo (Dec 31, 2021)

Well folks  getting away from all this  high end church talk you all really know that we came from the sea and evolved through millions of years to what we are today. Some not totally evolved and living in jungles and the depths of the seas
After all we do start life in the womb just like a little tadpole  for the first few weeks...
don't hit me...just sayin'
Sorry Adam et al....


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## Gary O' (Dec 31, 2021)

Mizmo said:


> Treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves


it's a common desire
and
it's in The Lord's prayer
'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'

If one studies, one will find everything biblical is for the good of mankind

even the flood....even Sodom and Gomorrah 
They were destroyed to keep them from destroying the world

It'll happen again

Not because God is vengeful 
Quite the contrary
Because He is merciful
We can't go too much longer how we're going


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## grahamg (Dec 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I was eight years old and in the third grade when my classmate & best friend Margaret shared with me that she was an atheist and what it meant.  I was shocked!  You mean, you don't have to believe in God?  WOW, lightbulb moment.  You are "allowed" to not believe?  So glad she told me.


My daughter shared the same thought with her classmates at about the same age, (not unusually the same thinking her mother held on the subject).
However the reaction of her classmates was quite different to yours, and they maybe put a slight chink in the armour of my daughter, and maybe she was given some inclining as to how little she understood of what she professed not to believe in, because she didn't seem quite so certain on the day to me.. 

Whether it did or not, my daughter continued to refuse to take an interest in the religious education she received in school/school according to her school reports, so turning her back on teachings like, "Do unto others as you would be done unto", and "Honour thy father and they mother,....", or "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", (such innocuous, and seemingly beneficial to all thinking like that!).

Looking at the positives though my daughter chose a career in a "caring profession", and her skills will benefit many people whatever her views on religion, so you could say God will be working through her, and I doubt she'll always be able to insulate herself from those with strong beliefs she attempts to treat.


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## grahamg (Jan 1, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Modern Man didn't just appear.  They appeared after many of iterations and improvements over about 2.5 million years.   Of course, man wasn't the first life on Earth.  From primitive life forms, through marine life, dinosaurs and early mammals, somehow it arrived  at Homo Sapiens, and here we are.  Of course, it seems very unlikely that we are the only ones.  After all there about 100 Billion stars in the Milky way and around 2 Trillion galaxies in the universe.
> 
> I can understand ancient man trying to make sense of they could see around them and it was not unreasonable for them to think that they must have been created by a 'god'. .  We are but specks of stardust, but day by day, we're  learning more and maybe one day we will understand how we came to be here - without having to invent a supernatural being.


My argument, in order to counter yours, is the significance of any religion throughout human history, (any religion emphasising the needs of all in contrast to, or balancing the interests of one individual), is/was so profound none of us would be here today without it.

If there had never been any religion anywhere in the world, what kind of world would/could have evolved, because all I can see is that every individual ever borne would/should put their own interests above all else in those circumstances. Why would you or anyone else wish to be a "good person", or thought of as a good person, wishing the best for all others, (so far as reasonably practical)?


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 1, 2022)

Very simply, because a collaborative approach is the best way to survive.


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## ElCastor (Jan 1, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> Perhaps, beliefs are created from life experience. Where if at all does religion play a part in the lives of many? For people who do not believe in a Godlike figure I wonder why or perhaps more profoundly what happened to cause disbelief and possibly resentment?
> 
> Mysterious is life and the multiple variations of reasoning that describes us as individuals. As individuals everyone lives according the story they present and the story they disguise sometimes from themselves and from public view.
> 
> ...


Personally I am an agnostic. The universe is vast beyond our understanding. I admit I don't know, how could I, but for some, religion can be a life saving tool. To simply declare the non-existence of a God seems to me to be an unnecessary exercise. Religion can be a vital experience for those who do believe. The old man driving a car full of old ladies to church where they will mingle with dozens of friends. Good or bad? The church soup kitchen that feeds the needy. Good or bad? Both sound good to me. Opposition to Christian beliefs in the US and the developed world has an element that unfortunately should not be discussed in this forum.


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## chic (Jan 1, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Very simply, because a collaborative approach is the best way to survive.


Ben Franklin believed the same.


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## rgp (Jan 1, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I was going to say if you'd actually read my posts you know that is not what I said..
> However, some advice I was given long ago by an Admin of another forum came to mind...  he said when someone is clearly trying to pick a fight, trying to bait me into an argument, it's usually better to just shrug it off and walk away from it.
> 
> *shrugs.. walks away*




   Oh, so I pose an opposing opinion to yours ...... & you reduce that to me just 'pickin' a fight.

  I did read your posts ..... and read it as i saw it , perceived as I did.


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Opposition to Christian beliefs in the US and the developed world has an element that unfortunately should not be discussed in this forum.


What element is that?


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## rgp (Jan 1, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> "Focusing on a single entity to blame doesn’t make sense to me.
> 
> @rgp said "I respectfully disagree. ........ if we are going to praise him for all that is good ? ...... then equally he should be blamed for all that is bad. ........... If he even exsist ?”
> 
> God exists, but not in the way you describe God to be. Sure God is recognized as the father figure of existence, but perhaps God is also every living and non-live being in partnership with one another? I cannot explain God but I accept God as I understand my God to be. There is within me a godly spirit who gives me peace and understanding of the world as I see it. I call it God.




   "but not in the way you describe God to be. "

 The above is another reason why I do not believe he does ....... IMO a person's perception of what he is , is just too damn convenient.


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## JaniceM (Jan 1, 2022)

rgp said:


> Oh, so I pose an opposing opinion to yours ...... & you reduce that to me just 'pickin' a fight.
> 
> I did read your posts ..... and read it as i saw it , perceived as I did.


Nope, opposing viewpoints are perfectly fine.  
But concluding with (quote)  *<sarc>*
shows you were not simply expressing a viewpoint.


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## JaniceM (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What element is that?


I'd like clarification on that, too


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## rgp (Jan 1, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Nope, opposing viewpoints are perfectly fine.
> But concluding with (quote)  *<sarc>*
> shows you were not simply expressing a viewpoint.



  "
But concluding with (quote)  *<sarc>*
shows you were not simply expressing a viewpoint."

   In your opinion ...... I disagree.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 1, 2022)

Correct me if I am wrong but Quakers believe all worshiping is relevant to God. key word is God, what God, who God? 

God is relevant to the individual. People see and understand differently, my point is everyone who chooses how they believe.


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## Knight (Jan 1, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> even the flood....even Sodom and Gomorrah
> They were destroyed to keep them from destroying the world
> 
> It'll happen again
> ...


Believing it will happen again & believing the reason is due to mercy is nice up until all innocent mankind is murdered. 
If that really took place then by the standards of society now, the story about back then  having an ark built to house one family & drown the entire population on earth translates to pre meditated murder. 

Maybe I have rose colored glasses on but just this site shows me there are a lot of really nice people in our world. I don't know why so many think of nothing but gloom & doom yet eat well, have a home to be able to sit in front of a computer & complain.


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## Knight (Jan 1, 2022)

grahamg said:


> If there had never been any religion anywhere in the world, what kind of world would/could have evolved, because all I can see is that every individual ever borne would/should put their own interests above all else in those circumstances. Why would you or anyone else wish to be a "good person", or thought of as a good person, wishing the best for all others, (so far as reasonably practical)?


Primitive mankind lived in groups with a hierarchy, tribes living in jungles the same yet managed to do well without the influence of a religion.


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## Sunny (Jan 1, 2022)

Interesting thread; I just discovered it.

From my atheist (or maybe, it's agnostic?) point of view, we have no way of knowing if there is an entity controlling the whole universe. But just from reading a book on astronomy, or watching one of those documentaries you can stream about the universe, and trying to grasp its breathtaking size, it seems obvious to me that if there is a God, it's not a "he,"  it's not sitting up there in a made-up place called heaven, giving us all scores on whether we've been naughty or nice, it doesn't change things one way or another because we pray,  it's not demanding our constant praise, loyalty, and love... and so on!  It's not testing our loyalty (God testing Abraham?), rewarding its loyal followers, or punishing those who think otherwise than what's in the books that have been declared "holy" by other human beings. That sounds more like a human tyrant running the show.

My guess is that it is a mathematical equation or a scientific principle, far beyond our comprehension. One theory is that the universe will eventually collapse back into a point with infinite mass, and there will be another big bang, and a new universe will be born. And this continues forever.  We cannot really visualize this, so we make up fairy tales and create a God who is very much like a human. But judging by the size of the universe, we are just tiny microbes, fighting to survive on a smallish planet going around a mid-size sun among trillions of other suns.

Most organized religions do this humanizing of God (not all).  They contribute nothing to human love, understanding, empathy, cooperation, generosity, or any other good stuff. In fact, a lot more cruelty and hatred is generated by those religions than anything good for mankind. Once in a while, they do good. But they can do this without belief in a deity.


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## grahamg (Jan 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Primitive mankind lived in groups with a hierarchy, tribes living in jungles the same yet managed to do well without the influence of a religion.


I still think you're underestimating the importance of religions of one kind or another over millennia, going back before recorded history.


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## ElCastor (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What element is that?


Hmmm, how shall I put this? Certain large and important elements in contemporary society have taken it upon themselves to define fundamental principles of morality and consequently feel challenged by traditional religious beliefs that conflict with their competing views. Hatred and resentment can ensue.


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## Knight (Jan 1, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I still think you're underestimating the importance of religions of one kind or another over millennia, going back before recorded history.


You mean like  these in the name of religion are important
Taiping Rebellion- 20,000,000 Deaths (Rank- 6th)

Thirty Years War- 7,500,000 Deaths (Rank 17th)

Madhi Revolt- 5,500,000 (Rank 21st)

Crusades (in the East)- 3,000,000 Deaths (Rank- 30th)

French Wars of Religion- 3,000,000 Deaths (Rank 30th)

War in the Sudan- 2,600,000 (Rank 35th)

Albigensian Crusade- 1,000,000 Deaths (Rank- 46th)

Panthay Rebellion- 1,000,000 Deaths (Rank 46th)

Hui Rebellion- 640,000 Deaths (Rank 66th)

Partition of India- 500,000 (Rank 70th)

Cromwell’s Invasion of Ireland- 400,000 Deaths (Rank 81st)


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Hmmm, how shall I put this? Certain large and important elements in contemporary society have taken it upon themselves to define fundamental principles of morality and consequently feel challenged by traditional religious beliefs that conflict with their competing views. Hatred and resentment can ensue.


Clear as mud.


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## Gary O' (Jan 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Maybe I have rose colored glasses on but just this site shows me there are a lot of really nice people in our world. I don't know why so many think of nothing but gloom & doom yet eat well, have a home to be able to sit in front of a computer & complain.


Enjoy


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## fmdog44 (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Or not.


So you are saying after death something reveals a falsehood to us? What I meant in my post is any way you look at it like Betty White just said recently "there is only one way to find out."


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## fmdog44 (Jan 1, 2022)

The moment my brother died he suddenly rose up in his bed and his eyes were wide open and bulging. He then fell back dead. I wonder why that happened.


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## Knight (Jan 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Hatred and resentment can ensue.


I've noticed that happens whenever anyone questions events in the bible.


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> So you are saying after death something reveals a falsehood to us? What I meant in my post is any way you look at it like Betty White just said recently "there is only one way to find out."


If there is a falsehood to reveal it wouldn't be known, would it?


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## Pepper (Jan 1, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> The moment my brother died he suddenly rose up in his bed and his eyes were wide open and bulging. He then fell back dead. I wonder why that happened.


Does the body spasm after death?
The body of a person who dies goes into a state of rigor mortis within two to four hours. During this time, the chemical changes within the body cause the limbs and muscles to stiffen for up to four days. *A cadaveric spasm, also called instant rigor,* *occurs post mortem in rare cases*.
How to Distinguish Rigor Mortis From a Cadaveric Spasm
https://sciencing.com › Science › Biology › Human Body


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## grahamg (Jan 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> You mean like  these in the name of religion are important
> Taiping Rebellion- 20,000,000 Deaths (Rank- 6th)
> Thirty Years War- 7,500,000 Deaths (Rank 17th)
> Madhi Revolt- 5,500,000 (Rank 21st)
> ...


Why those things may be of evolutionary significance is because the outcomes would obviously affect who was left to procreate and  contribute to the future of mankind, but to conflate human conflict directly with religion, "even if every one of those wars was 100% the result of religion" still misses my point about the significance of religion overall in the development of societies where the likes of you and I might one day be conceived.  

In Elizabethan times in England it was decreed in law that everyone had to attend the church I believe, adultery was frowned upon to a degree we can hardly imagine now, (even if behind the scenes all sorts went on). You could be sued for "breach of promise" if you failed to marry someone you were engaged to, (because of the impact upon their reputations by your failing them I guess). All of these aspects of life generations ago were of evolutionary significance in my view.

Quote:
"The Elizabethan Recusancy Laws were established due to the 1559 Act of Uniformity of Common Prayer and Administration of the Sacrament in which attendance at church became compulsory and non-attendance was punishable by *fine or imprisonment*."

https://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/... Laws were,punishable by fine or imprisonment.

And then there is this:
https://www.elizabethi.org/contents/essays/divorce.htm

Quote:
"In the early modern period, the institution of marriage was seen as almost sacred. Protestant theologians denied that it was a sacrament, but they maintained the pre-Reformation view that it was a holy union ordained by God for the prevention of sin and fornication. It was also seen as the backbone of society. It was believed to be an institution essential for the preservation of law and order, and was seen as a microcosm of society at large. William Gouge, the famous 'conduct book' writer, wrote in his _Of Domesticall Duties_ (1622)

"...a family is a little Church and a little commonwealth."(1)

The breakdown of a marriage was therefore a source of great concern. Not particularly because it meant the relationship between a certain couple had broken down, but because it threatened social stability, and the potential breakdown of social order and hierarchy. The separation of a man and wife was to be avoided at all costs. Couples experiencing marital difficulties were expected to work through them and learn to live with, and love, one another as a husband and wife should."


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## Lara (Jan 1, 2022)

God is not the author of confusion. Some see clearly. Some are blinded. We will all see clearly one day. Be ready.


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## ElCastor (Jan 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> I've noticed that happens whenever anyone questions events in the bible.


Yes, kind of a mutual problem.


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## ElCastor (Jan 1, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Clear as mud.


Mud? Just my attempt to avoid using the forbidden "P" word. (-8


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## Knight (Jan 1, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The breakdown of a marriage was therefore a source of great concern. Not particularly because it meant the relationship between a certain couple had broken down, but because it threatened social stability, and the potential breakdown of social order and hierarchy. The separation of a man and wife was to be avoided at all costs. Couples experiencing marital difficulties were expected to work through them and learn to live with, and love, one another as a husband and wife should."


The laws mankind have developed right or wrong stem from experiences.  History is full of reasons for laws to be enacted & repealed.  While not a law but guidance [ you shall not kill ] sounds good but has basis for guidance. One of those [do as I say don't do as I do].


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## grahamg (Jan 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> The laws mankind have developed right or wrong stem from experiences.  History is full of reasons for laws to be enacted & repealed.  While not a law but guidance [ you shall not kill ] sounds good but has basis for guidance. One of those [do as I say don't do as I do].


I can't claim my theory is 100% accurate, logical and foolproof, so you may be right, and "religion had nothing to do with the development of modern societies, who might get born etc.", (I guess some more research is required to see what those with the intellectual abilities necessary to examine such a question have to say).

Changing the subject, (or responding to your quote from the bible but taking a different tack), I've rarely met anyone who in the course of their duties serving their country has done what you quoted, but your imagine if anyone has done this in warfare etc., where their own lives, and lives of their comrades were at stake, I'd guess it has a highly significant psychological impact upon them, whether they admit it or not.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 1, 2022)

From the response of
Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we believe as we do?​Beliefs are made at an early age, some beliefs come from family, others come from experience. Does it matter what I believe or what you believe or anybody else for that matter? What matters is respect and the freedom to discern. I followed the religious train wreck of my dad and all the while watched him cower away from his responsibilities as a dad and a family man. As a narcissist the love he had for himself was sufficient and the family was simply a source of broken support. 

The way people think about God and religion has changed in 50 years. It is true people don't think about God or religion the way they used to. For what is worth, I feel outdated. Whatever I might think about God or religion is irrelevant to anyone else, so what's the use in standing for something if no one is interested. 

I am fascinated about God and spirituality as they have close to human behavior. Why are there so many ideas and concepts of God? There are perhaps as many ideas about God and religion as there are people in this world. I don't get it, is everyone is basically the same, why so many opinions? God is known or denied by many, yet no one believes exactly the same.


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## Irwin (Jan 1, 2022)

Refrain from taking life. 
Refrain from taking what is not given. 
Refrain from the misuse of the senses. 
Refrain from wrong speech.
Refrain from intoxicants that cloud the mind.

Those rules have nothing to do with religion or god. They were part of the Buddha's philosophy some 500 years before Christ was born. They're known as The Five Precepts of Buddhism.


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## grahamg (Jan 1, 2022)

Irwin said:


> Refrain from taking life.
> Refrain from taking what is not given.
> Refrain from the misuse of the senses.
> Refrain from wrong speech.
> ...


I have heard that there is no concept of God in Buddhism, but I fail to see the logic in your statement that the rules listed made only connected to a religion, (you've contradicted yourself surely?).

Btw I caught the end of a BBC radio show called "The Moral Maze" a couple of hours ago, where a similar discussion to this one was taking place, (an expert called Palmer maybe agreeing with my viewpoint, though as I say I only caught a bit of the show, if I can I'll come back with  link so we can all check it out if we wish).


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## RadishRose (Jan 1, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> why do we believe as we do?


Because we can't accept mortality .


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## RadishRose (Jan 1, 2022)

Irwin said:


> Those rules have nothing to do with religion or god.


Buddhism is not a religion?


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## Gary O' (Jan 1, 2022)

A little note here;

For those who wish to study the Bible
It's less confusing if you have a prayer on your lips while doing so


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## mellowyellow (Jan 1, 2022)

I tend to push away all logical arguments about God and the big bang theory etc and like the romantic idea of meeting up with loved ones who have passed on when we die. Although logically it’s unlikely, I’m sticking to it with crossed fingers.


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## Lara (Jan 1, 2022)

*Why do we believe as we do? *
Because most of us realize there is 
something going on that's bigger than ourselves, 
more intelligent, more knowledgable, more wise, more  powerful
and so we search, we study, we ponder

*Why are all the answers being kept a mystery? *
Why the big secret? Why not let us know everything. 
I believe that question is answered in the 
New Testament of the Bible. That's why it's still around.
It doesn't give you all the answers but it tells you why not


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## Shero (Jan 1, 2022)

Receiving my early education in a Catholic Convent in France, I have great knowledge of the Bible.

I love much of the wisdom written there, especially, Psalms and Proverbs.

However, as I grew, and realised how holy books like the Bible and the Koran etc were formulated - I know they are first and foremost historical documents.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

True, holy books like the Bible are just historical documents on the surface...

But it's like a gift in a box.
Once one opens it, receives it, and uses it,
it completely changes many many lives forever...for eternity.
That's pretty miraculous.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 2, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> I tend to push away all logical arguments about God and the big bang theory etc and like the romantic idea of meeting up with loved ones who have passed on when we die. Although logically it’s unlikely, I’m sticking to it with crossed fingers.


The problem with that is that you might bump into people whom you absolutely detest.  No, I'm happy to believe that when you're dead, you're dead and only survive in the memories of the living.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

You wouldn't detest anyone if you were to go to heaven. 
That doesn't exist there.
But the alternative might be another story.


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## rgp (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> You wouldn't detest anyone if you were to go to heaven.
> That doesn't exist there.
> But the alternative might be another story.




   And you know this how ? ........ Been there ?


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't like reading the Bible, I don't like Christian music, particularly Praise music, I don't like preachers, priests or clergy whose image is greater than God. 
  When I hear a sermon I listen for flaws and faulty information. Yet I am perfectly fine in my beliefs and I have no desire to think otherwise because whatever this is works for me. 

A note for everyone to consider; your beliefs are your own, and may change from time to time but they are still yours to believe in. No one, to my knowledge, has the power to change your mind or force you to think differently without your consent. I don't know if all roads lead to a desired destination in the afterlife, nor does anyone else who has not died and returned to life. 

My advice is believe or not believe as you will. I do not support the Christian view of recruiting non-believers to prevent them from eternal hell and damnation. I consider this a ploy to increase church population and revenue to conduct church business and future growth. The more money a church has, the more services the church can provide to local and foreign missions. And thus the circle continues, more people, more money, more services and so on.. 

People who attend church services must be getting something out of them, the same with reading the Bible and prayer. Whatever or however you choose to worship or not, do it because it is meaningful to you and fulfills your need for growth.


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## Gary O' (Jan 2, 2022)

Irwin said:


> Refrain from taking life.
> Refrain from taking what is not given.
> Refrain from the misuse of the senses.
> Refrain from wrong speech.
> ...


Approx 1600 years before Christ, Moses was given the ten commandments.
They contain those precepts and then some


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Knight said:


> We, my wife & I have prospered. Not willing to say how much financially, but well enough to be able to live above middle class in retirement. But financially isn't the only measure of prospering. 3 great sons all self sufficient & contributing to society.
> 
> If God plans to prosper you and according to you,  you accept the plan why are there millions of homeless that believe yet aren't prospering? Or those born  handicapped that will never prosper? Exactly who fits the criteria to enjoy the plan to prosper if there are millions perhaps billions world wide that have faith in a creator yet aren't prospering?
> 
> ...


Ugh.  Just ugh.

*Matthew 19:24
I tell you it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

prosper, the Hebrew meaning:
to be quiet or at ease
to be happy; to prosper in safety

prosper, 1400 Greek meaning 
to help on the road*

For those that believe prosperity is wealth-no matter how little wealth or how much wealth-you have my sympathy.  While I do not subscribe to the Bible as the know all answers to everything, there are some things in it that make sense to me.

Those millions and millions that have faith but are not prosperous, according to @Knight.  Who @Knight made YOU the judge of what is prosperous and what is not?  You have missed the point.  Prosperity is of the SOUL, it has nothing to do with earthly wealth and comfort.

The poor, the homeless, the downtrodden, the disabled, the felons, the repentant, the handicapped prosper greater than you will ever know or understand.  My two disabled sons ARE NOT SELF sufficient and never will be.  But I can assure you that they contribute more to society than any able bodied human being ever will.    

Please do not confuse the Old Testament with the New Testament, as you have done.  There is one God, and many religions.  God is of the Old Testament.  Jesus Christ is the New Testament.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

rgp said:


> And you know this how ? ........ Been there ?


No, I don't know this.
My answers are all faith-based.
I acknowledge that there is only One who is omniscient (all knowing)...God
And that is also a faith-based response. Based on what I've read and experienced.


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## JimBob1952 (Jan 2, 2022)

Lots of people are down on organized religion, and I don't blame them.  

I will say this, however:  The teachings of Jesus are hard to beat.  The Old Testament contains lots of weird and/or contradictory messages, but the Gospels are consistent and the lessons are good ones, even if very few of us live by them.


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## JimBob1952 (Jan 2, 2022)

I should note that I'm not saying a person named "Jesus of Nazareth" ever existed, or that He is/was the Son of God, or was resurrected.   I'm just saying that however the four Gospels were assembled, they contain invaluable lessons for how to live in a proper and meaningful way.


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## fmdog44 (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Does the body spasm after death?
> The body of a person who dies goes into a state of rigor mortis within two to four hours. During this time, the chemical changes within the body cause the limbs and muscles to stiffen for up to four days. *A cadaveric spasm, also called instant rigor,* *occurs post mortem in rare cases*.
> How to Distinguish Rigor Mortis From a Cadaveric Spasm
> https://sciencing.com › Science › Biology › Human Body


That has nothing to do with my post


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## fmdog44 (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If there is a falsehood to reveal it wouldn't be known, would it?


How do you know? You are not dead....yet.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> That has nothing to do with my post


Sorry.  I do so beg your pardon.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> How do you know? You are not dead....yet.


That has nothing to do with my post.


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## grahamg (Jan 2, 2022)

There are some aspects of religion (and/or the bible), where you could argue there are no downsides!

For example when it says something along the lines of "Those whom man has rejected I will make the cornerstone of the world".

Its hard to argue with this one either, quote:
_"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful" _


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 2, 2022)

My mother was never good at explaining anything and when it came to religion, she accepted it blindly because that was 'what you did'.  The last time I saw her was when she was in a nursing home.  When I went to leave, she suddenly said "You don't believe in God, do you".  No sense in trying to explain anything, so I just said that seeing the world as I did, I couldn't reconcile that with her views.  Her final words to me were, "I thought so".   I don't think we ever understood one another.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

Aww... @Capt Lightning ,there is a verse in the New Testament that says, "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed...but blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Your Mother chose to believe and I'm sure it wasn't for a trivial reason like "because that is what you did".  She will be blessed for believing "blindly" as you say and according to John 20:29.

Maybe someday you will see you mother where we have complete understanding of one another if, like her, you believe without seeing. She'll be so surprised and so happy to see you there. But I respect your free will to make your own choice.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

@grahamg Those are good examples. A little clarification though for the first example. That scripture was referring to Jesus being the rejected one by the Jews who crucified him. Then the verse goes on to say Jesus will be made the cornerstone of the world.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

That's it.  The Jews.  People like you led to the Holocaust and vicious acts throughout history.  I wish your lips could never say the word; I wish your fingers could never type it.  Your arrogance is revolting.


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## JaniceM (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> @grahamg Those are good examples. A little clarification though for the first example. That scripture was referring to Jesus being the rejected one by the Jews who crucified him. Then the verse goes on to say Jesus will be made the cornerstone of the world.


https://biblicalspiritualitypress.o...-the-romans-the-jews-you-and-i-or-his-father/
https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/crucifixion-of-jesus-and-the-jews


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## Michael Z (Jan 2, 2022)

There have been many replies here. But I will stick to responding to most of the original post statements, as they relate to my life.

*Beliefs Created From Life Experience?*
I would say this is true for the first part of my life. I was raised in a traditional church, and was taught in catechism that if I had an unconfessed (to a priest) mortal sin, I would go to hell. Also, I got the message from church that you would most likely go to heaven if you were a fairly good person. This always left me with a lack of any kind of peace or assurance. As I got older, I observed some hypocrisy in connection with the religion I was raised in, and this led to me placing religion on a shelf and living a wild life as a young man. But then I briefly became involved with some Born-Again Christians in my second year at college and an older Campus Crusade leader shared scripture verses that related to the Four Spiritual Laws (see below). I rejected these "laws" for 7 years and subsequently returned to my wild living.  A downturn in my life then had me reconsidering the scriptures shared with me. I then accepted Christ and turned to the bible for teaching. So yes, experience played a large part, but the scriptures, plainly explained with regard to salvation, also played a large role. And I firmly believe that prayers of others also played a very important role in my salvation.

*God is a form people create for themselves for whatever reasons?*
My God is the God of the bible that took the form of a human, having compassion on the worst of sinners. I know some will state how God allows some to die, or even commanded the deaths in Old Testament passages. So yes, this affects my thoughts on God too. God is all-powerful and the wrath of God is certainly to be feared. But also, there is blessed assurance for those that belief in Christ as the deliverer. This is the consistent with the scriptures "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." 

*There is no right or wrong way to understand God. Whatever God may be to you God is as you believe?*
I understand God as presented in the scriptures and described above. With that in mind, Jesus stated "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by me".


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## JaniceM (Jan 2, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> From the response of
> Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we believe as we do?​Beliefs are made at an early age, some beliefs come from family, others come from experience. Does it matter what I believe or what you believe or anybody else for that matter? What matters is respect and the freedom to discern. I followed the religious train wreck of my dad and all the while watched him cower away from his responsibilities as a dad and a family man. As a narcissist the love he had for himself was sufficient and the family was simply a source of broken support.
> 
> The way people think about God and religion has changed in 50 years. It is true people don't think about God or religion the way they used to. For what is worth, I feel outdated. Whatever I might think about God or religion is irrelevant to anyone else, so what's the use in standing for something if no one is interested.
> ...



I agree with the first sentence in your post.
As for the last paragraph, from my POV, religion/spirituality/etc. (choose your favorite term) was essentially for the purpose of explaining the otherwise-unexplainable.  
Example:  from something I read by Native American-  Father Sky and Mother Earth;
Example:  the tribal religions some of my ancestors practiced in Africa (before missionaries came in and turned them into Catholics   ;
Example:  telling children "GOD took" Grandparent or parent away.  

Re: differences-  if you look closely at religions, denominations, etc., it appears that those who take an Authoritarian view of people and life in general take a 'wrathful God' approach, whereas those who take an egalitarian approach to people and life in general are more likely to take the 'loving God' approach.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> That's it.  The Jews.  People like you led to the Holocaust and vicious acts throughout history.  I wish your lips could never say the word; I wish your fingers could never type it.  Your arrogance is revolting.


Out of curiosity who are you directing this at? @Pepper


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> Out of curiosity who are you directing this at? @Pepper


For God's sake, who do you think?  I know you can read in sequence!


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> For God's sake, who do you think?


Well, , if I knew, I would not have asked.  Perhaps in my old age I am even less able to read minds and God forbid I guess wrong.  I might be damned to hell for all eternity .  You can always PM me the answer


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." 

God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

That's it. The Jews. People like you led to the Holocaust and vicious acts throughout history. I wish your lips could never say the word; I wish your fingers could never type it. Your arrogance is revolting.


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## JaniceM (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
> 
> God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and *they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth*. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.


So, what do you think our "purpose" is on _this _earth???


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

I don't know what your purpose is JaniceM. It's personal. Where's this anger coming from? I know what my purpose is. I have two that come to mind and there are more as necessity calls. One purpose is to be a good mother to my children. Another purpose is to help clarify scriptures for those who misunderstand it or misinterpret. I do the best I can with that.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

Instead of being humble and apologizing, some people need to say the other is misunderstanding poor them.  Well, no one is misunderstanding you.  Show humility and ask for forgiveness.  You have offended.  Someone like you who knows everything knows that much.  Right?  Or is pride standing in the way?


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

You want me to apologize for the scriptures I quoted from the Bible? I didn't write the Bible. And I don't even know why your're angry.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

Yes.  I'd like you to apologize for the scriptures *you yourself selected* to make a point with.  Yes, I do.  And I wish I could stop you from uttering the word Jew in any context ever again.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

What's wrong with the word Jew? Same thing as saying Christian. It's a person of a certain faith. We both believe that Jesus existed. The difference between our faiths is that the Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah and the Christians believe He is. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. I accept their free will to choose what they believe. Are you Jewish?


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

So in other words, you are too filled with the sin of pride to offer a sincere apology when you have offended?  You seek to blame the one you have injured for the explanation as to why you must look into yourself?  Such a person thinks too highly of themselves to be a Christian in their heart of hearts. Do you willfully misunderstand?


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

Huh? Why are you offended? How did I offend you? Do you mean the Bible scriptures offended you?


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2022)

I'll be the true Christian here, since you're having a problem.  I forgive you.  You know not what you do.


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

You're right. I don't have a clue what I did. But thank you Pepper. You say you're a Christian?


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## garyt1957 (Jan 2, 2022)

I grew up Catholic,  even went to Catholic grade school.  Followed all the rules as a young adult. As I got older I started to realize how ridiculous organized religion was ( to me at least). It's just a way to control people. 
   Even going back to the Middle Ages when the King and Cardinals and Bisbops lived like well, kings, as the peasants starved. How to keep the peasants from revolting?  Make up stories of a wonderful afterlife if you just behave now.
   God supposedly showed himself often way back in biblical times, why not now? One worldwide appearance in the sky and all wars end, we have world peace an end to poverty,  etc. Oh, you have to have faith. Isn't that what the used car salesman says? "Trust me, this car was only driven by a little old lady to church on Sunday. How do you get people to believe unbelievable things? Tell them it's a test of their faith.
   I'm not saying there is no God just that God is nothing like anything in organized religion. The saying is God created man in his image but realistically Man created God in HIS image.
   The one thing that keeps me open to some sort of diety is the idea of where did it all start? I believe in the Big Bang but still what created what was there before the Big Bang?
     This is all just my current beliefs and hopefully no insult to any believers. If it brings you comfort, God bless you (no pun intended).


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

What created the Big Bang? What about how does a big bang of mass confusion create intelligent design with such precision? Actually, I do believe the Big Bang was possible but not responsible for all of creation. And it's also possible God created the Big Bang.


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## Irwin (Jan 2, 2022)

Pepper said:


> That's it. The Jews. People like you led to the Holocaust and vicious acts throughout history. I wish your lips could never say the word; I wish your fingers could never type it. Your arrogance is revolting.


The Romans killed Jesus, yet Christians blame the Jews.


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
> 
> God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.





Lara said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
> 
> God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.




Okay! have read enough! my lips are no longr sealed!

Lara, the scriptures and you have it all wrong.
The Jews had nothing to do with the death of Jesus.
The Romans killed Jesus.
If it were not for the Jews, Christianity would not have started.
God gave Moses the Ten Commandments ...to the tribes of Israel.
How in the name of Heaven can anyone study the New Testament without the Old Testament???....that is where it all started.
Jesus, never stopped being a Jew. He was Jewish, he lived a Jewish life until his death.



.


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> What's wrong with the word Jew? Same thing as saying Christian. It's a person of a certain faith. We both believe that Jesus existed. The difference between our faiths is that the Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah and the Christians believe He is. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come. I accept their free will to choose what they believe. Are you Jewish?


 
No one knows who the Messiah is or will be. No One!!!  Show me the proof of Jesus being the Messiah.  I am Catholic. More Bible taught than you Lara and I want proof.
I believe no one will be coming to save lives.  We have to save our own lives. By doing good, by caring for our fellow humans, by eradicating poverty, that is what we are here to do.


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> You want me to apologize for the scriptures I quoted from the Bible? I didn't write the Bible. And I don't even know why your're angry.




No, you did not write the Bible.  Dozens of ancients did and like the propagandist media of today, most got it wrong.  
Yes, a lot of wisdom exists in the Bible, many things I live by daily, but I do not wear rose colored glasses. I take it for what it is.
I also do not wear sheep's clothing!


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> You wouldn't detest anyone if you were to go to heaven.
> That doesn't exist there.
> But the alternative might be another story.



Both  "Heaven" and "Hell" are both here on Earth. Not somewhere in in the never never. Do good and that is heaven - do bad and that is hell.


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## Knight (Jan 2, 2022)

The bible seems to be the focus of belief or not believing relative to the stories in the bible. Blind faith depends on who is posting their opinion. 

To follow the ops thread of creativity I decided to look for an explanation of who wrote the bible. If the info written at this site is accurate the bible was a work of literature that took about a thousand years to write. Based mostly on what the various authors imagined.  

https://allthatsinteresting.com/who-wrote-the-bible

Old testament new testament it comes down to a lot of stories trying to explain myths & the unknown at the time written. 

I think it would be exciting to find & take a laptop to visit several uncontacted tribes that live in complete isolation, without having any contact with their neighbors and the rest of the world. Currently, it is believed that there are around 100 uncontacted tribes left in the world. The exact number is not known—the majority of those tribes living in the Amazonian rainforest. The most secluded of them all is the Sentinelese, a tribe that lives on the North Sentinel Island near India.

I would show videos of Startrek Voyager & claim I am God & those strange beings are all my creation. Why would they doubt me because I have visual proof that others are under my control. Their belief in something they can see opposed to stories that defy logic might just work to my benefit. I could pass a collection plate to collect any gold or other precious items they would give to me.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
> 
> God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.


Oh, hmm, I could have sworn JC was talking about the Romans, the ones who pounded the nails in his hands and feet.  But, then, I am not a Bible expert and I was not there so I really don’t know who JC meant or who exactly did the nailing.  Plus he couldn’t point out anyone since, you know, his hands were nailed to the cross.


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## Sunny (Jan 2, 2022)

From Wikipedia:

The *crucifixion of Jesus* occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is considered an established historical event by many,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.[2][3][4]

According to the canonical gospels, Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin, and then sentenced by Pontius Pilate to be scourged, and finally crucified by the Romans.[5][6][7][8] It portrays his death as a sacrifice for humanity's sins.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> @grahamg Those are good examples. A little clarification though for the first example. That scripture was referring to Jesus being the rejected one by the Jews who crucified him. Then the verse goes on to say Jesus will be made the cornerstone of the world.


I thought the Romans did the crucifying.  I swear in the movie I watched it was the Romans, and were not the Romans from Italy?  Shouldn’t we blame the Italians?  Or should we just let it go since JC agreed to his crucifixion in order to save mankind?

It seems to me that agreeing to being crucified negates who does the crucifying.  Had JC not been crucified, he could not have ascended to Heaven.  Had he not ascended to Heaven, he would not be worshiped as the son of God, and christianity would not have happened.

*It was God’s plan.  The whole thing was God‘s plan.  If you need to blame someone, for the crucification, blame GOD, the father.  He could have stopped it at any time.  How is it that this is not understood?*

@Lara— a little clarification for you


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Lara said:


> I'm not sure who you are talking to either Pepper, but you have grossly misunderstood scripture and overreacted. Jesus loved the Jews and as He suffered on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
> 
> God said in Revelations that He will protect the Jews from judgement and they will be given a special purpose on the new and perfect earth. I don't know much nor understand Revelations very well so don't ask me for details but I do know that much.


Who are you to tell anyone that they “have grossly misunderstood the scripture and overreacted”.  “Judge not less you be judged”.  As for JC loving the Jewish people, JC was Jewish as I recall.


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## Gary O' (Jan 2, 2022)

Quite the confab

I've spiritually been where most you fine folks here are, presently
For a very long time
Mostly agnostic

I just so wish folks would listen to that still small voice (while it's there)
.....and study the scriptures.....with a prayerful mind
It has changed me
No easy feat 
And if it can change me, it can change anyone

I have no more comments for this thread
My prayers are with you all, my brothers, my sisters


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Knight said:


> The bible seems to be the focus of belief or not believing relative to the stories in the bible. Blind faith depends on who is posting their opinion.
> 
> To follow the ops thread of creativity I decided to look for an explanation of who wrote the bible. If the info written at this site is accurate the bible was a work of literature that took about a thousand years to write. Based mostly on what the various authors imagined.
> 
> ...


They would kill you before you got close.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 2, 2022)

Sunny said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> The *crucifixion of Jesus* occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is considered an established historical event by many,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.[2][3][4]
> 
> According to the canonical gospels, Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin, and then sentenced by Pontius Pilate to be scourged, and finally crucified by the Romans.[5][6][7][8] It portrays his death as a sacrifice for humanity's sins.


So @Sunny you saw the same movie as me


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## Lara (Jan 2, 2022)

We're all in agreement that Jesus was always Jewish. No argument there. 

Regarding "Who killed Jesus?"...I've done a little research and the answer has many facets.

According to the gospel accounts, Jewish authorities played a major role in Roman Judea as they charged and tried Jesus with blasphemy and sought his execution, but lacked the authority to have Jesus put to death (John 18:31), so they brought Jesus to Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of the province, who authorized Jesus' execution (John 19:16).

Pontius Pilate tried to release Jesus but the Jewish crowd cried out "Crucify Him!", "Crucify Him!". The Roman soldiers literally drove the nails into Jesus but many were a part of Jesus death...Jews, Romans, God, You, Me, and ultimately Jesus willingly laid down His own life for the forgiveness of our sins for our salvation.

In a sense, it was the sinners, us, who nailed Jesus to the cross. It was God's plan for Jesus to suffer the punishment for our sins so we could be forgiven and receive Salvation.
`


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## Knight (Jan 2, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> They would kill you before you got close.


No they wouldn't, I would have a plan for them.


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Jesus was crucified as a Jewish victim of Roman violence. All written authorities agree. Pontius Pilate, condemned him to death and had him tortured and executed by Gentile Roman soldiers. Jesus was one of thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans.

The New Testament testifies to this fact but there was also some Jewish involvement, not from the masses, but from a few high ranking Jewish authorities who owed their position and power to the Romans. 

They conspired with the Gentile leaders to have Jesus put to death because of jealousy. They saw Jesus popularity as a threat to their position.

I do not understand what you mean Lara when you say this and I quote

“The Roman soldiers literally drove the nails into Jesus but many were a part of Jesus death...Jews, Romans, God, You, Me”

How am I or anyone today is part of the death of a man who died thousands of years ago?


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## Shero (Jan 2, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I just so wish folks would listen to that still small voice (while it's there)
> .....and study the scriptures.....with a prayerful mind


That "still small voice" inside is called our conscience, which existed eons before the Bible was ever writter 


*The Voice*
There is a voice inside of you
That whispers all day long,
“I feel this is right for me,
I know that this is wrong.”
No teacher, preacher, parent, friend
Or wise man can decide
What’s right for you–just listen to
The voice that speaks inside

~Shel Silverstein
,


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## Lara (Jan 3, 2022)

Shero said:


> Both  "Heaven" and "Hell" are both here on Earth. Not somewhere in in the never never. Do good and that is heaven - do bad and that is hell.
> I do not understand what you mean Lara when you say this and I quote, “The Roman soldiers literally drove the nails into Jesus but many were a part of Jesus death...Jews, Romans, God, You, Me” How am I or anyone today is part of the death of a man who died thousands of years ago?



This is my Faith-based answer. You asked.
I'm not pushing it on anyone. We were all created to make our own choices.
That's how God wants it.

You think Hell is here now on earth if you're bad, and Heaven if you're good?
I call that natural consequences or karma or Satan's work...no comparison.
Life is really good for me so you're saying I'm really good? Thank you but no, I'm a sinner too...in need of Jesus, our Savior

You asked *how is anyone responsible for Jesus death long ago?* I'll copy and paste my answer post#167 for you.

*Jewish *authorities....played a major role in Roman Judea as they charged and tried Jesus with blasphemy and sought his execution, but lacked the authority to have Jesus put to death (John 18:31), so they brought Jesus to Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of the province, who authorized Jesus' execution. Pontius Pilate tried to free Jesus but the Jewish crowds yelled"Crucify Him!" "Crucify Him!"

*Romans*...drove the nails into Jesus which was their typical style of crucifixion

*God*...It was God's plan for Jesus to suffer the punishment for our sins so we could be forgiven and receive Salvation

*Jesus.*..willingly gave His life for our sins

*All people*...In a sense, it was the sinners, Us, who nailed Jesus to the cross. Mel Gibson made a movie where, in the end, he himself drove the nails into Jesus as a reminder to us all that it was for our sins that Jesus died.


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## Shero (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> This is my Faith-based answer. You asked.
> I'm not pushing it on anyone. We were all created to make our own choices.
> That's how God wants it.
> 
> ...



You are basing your argument on a Mel Gibson movie? Mon Dieu!

Lara, we both have Christian beliefs, that is true, but I must respectfully suggest that you do some more work on analysing the Bible. You will find it right there in the Bible that both Heaven and Hell are the states of mind, and both exist within us.

If you read the Bible carefully, you will see so many phrases that are related to this. "Heaven is the state of mind" "Heaven is within you, Heaven is within your heart." (Luke 17:21)
.


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## Tommy (Jan 3, 2022)

1 Corinthians 1:18  For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Matthew 7:13-14  Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


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## Sunny (Jan 3, 2022)

The Jews did not kill Jesus. He himself was a Jew, probably a charismatic rabbi with a devoted following. He was, of course, rejected by conventional Judaism, but they did not kill him. Crucifixion was a Roman form of torture and execution.

It is truly astonishing, in this day and age, to see the level of ignorance that has been pounded into the heads of some people.  They were taught as children that the Jews killed Jesus, so even now, in their old age when they should know better, they are still repeating that poison. Their fear (thinly disguised as "love") guides their entire world view.

I'd recommend a visit to the Holocaust Museum, but it probably would do no good. Their smug self-satisfaction would override anything that the truth might tell them. They prefer to keep believing the cruel, ignorant lies of their childhood.

Can we find the truth in the Bible?  I tend to agree with Bill Maher, who said:

_When those myths were created, when the Bible was written, man didn't know what an atom or a germ was, or where the sun went at night, or why women got pregnant. They needed stories to answer the questions._


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> We're all in agreement that Jesus was always Jewish. No argument there.
> 
> Regarding "Who killed Jesus?"...I've done a little research and the answer has many facets.
> 
> ...


What? No, no, and no.  The crowd was offered a choice between freeing JC and a popular criminal, forget his name will try and look it up, and the crowd chose to free the criminal and crucify JC.  Saw the movie several times so I am sure this is correct.  Why you would have to “research” such a well known story is odd and puzzling.

Anyway.  *I was NOT a party to the death of JC.*  If it makes you feel good to claim a portion of responsibility for his death, well, gee, gosh, golly.  You might want to see a therapist, soon.  (Just a well meant suggestion). Seriously, such statements are over the top.  Sinners did not nail JC to the cross.  The Romans nailed him to the cross.

I am sure they were forgiven and have a nice home, with a view, in Heaven.  As they completed and were a part of the plan of the man in charge of this spectacle, you know, GOD, the great I AM.  Were those Romans sinners?  I do not know, and neither do you @Lara.  But since they were a big part of God’s plan, I doubt it.  In any event, God judges, not you.

You have lost credibility with me on this reply of yours.  I am sure it doesn’t matter to you, still, your reply is worrisome.

BARABBAS was chosen by the crowd to live, finally remembered the name.


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## Lara (Jan 3, 2022)

Shero said:


> You are basing your argument on a Mel Gibson movie? Mon Dieu!
> 
> Lara, we both have Christian beliefs, that is true, but I must respectfully suggest that you do some more work on analysing the Bible. You will find it right there in the Bible that both Heaven and Hell are the states of mind, and both exist within us.
> 
> ...


You are way off base. Of course I didn't base my post (not argument) on a Mel Gibson Movie. That was an example for you because you were having a hard time comprehending.

Yes, I am always studying the Bible "to find myself approved of God".

You don't understand what The Kingdom of God is. It is the opposite of Hell. In order to enter the Kingdom of God one must repent. It also is not a "state of mind". Luke 17:21 says "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Nowhere does that say "Heaven is a state of mind within you" as you posted.

You continue to post misinterpretations that confuse members here and you have a bullying disposition that is unkind so please put me on ignore and leave me alone. Thank you.

Your bully partner Aneeda is also off base. I don't have the time nor desire to give either of you my valuable time.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> You're right. I don't have a clue what I did. But thank you Pepper. You say you're a Christian?


The religion of @Pepper, or anyone else on SF, is not relevant to the discussion.  I don’t remember you mentioning what religion you are @Lara.  But you did say you have not attended church in 20 years.  I think.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> You are way off base. Of course I didn't base my post (not argument) on a Mel Gibson Movie. That was an example for you because you were having a hard time comprehending.
> 
> Yes, I am always studying the Bible "to find myself approved of God".
> 
> ...


Well, the Mel Gibson movie was a very good movie.


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## Lara (Jan 3, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I'll be the true Christian here





Aneeda72 said:


> The religion of @Pepper, or anyone else on SF, is not relevant to the discussion.


"I'll be" is not the same as "I am" so I asked for clarification. It was relevant to her post. I guess you're her bodyguard


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> "I'll be" is not the same as "I am" so I asked for clarification. It was relevant to her post. I guess you're her bodyguard


Well, she pays me enough and I need the money.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> You are way off base. Of course I didn't base my post (not argument) on a Mel Gibson Movie. That was an example for you because you were having a hard time comprehending.
> 
> Yes, I am always studying the Bible "to find myself approved of God".
> 
> ...


. When people are not able to control what others say; those people become upset when others point out that they are wrong; the claws come out and the name calling begins.  Neither I or @Pepper are bullies.  We are engaged in a discussion.  

Calling me a name is fine, and so very CHRISTIAN of you.  Oh, wait, maybe not.   CHRISTIANS do not call each other names, but, wait, a sinner would do that and then confess the wrong.  YOU have confessed that you are a sinner so, ok, go ahead call me a name.  You can confess later.

I’ve been called worst by better people and, I might add, in person.  Doesn’t bother me in the least.


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## Knight (Jan 3, 2022)

Back to the topic
The question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do? 

For me discussing who killed Jesus doesn't seem to answer that question. Whether or not the old testament or new testament verses answer the question I guess is up to each individual. For me the bible as a book of stories used to interest me when I was very young.

As I got older & began to question who the us was in creation, where prehistoric mankind fit in creation, how a variety of humans became possible from one DNA source. Even where  that omnipotent super being billions of years old that supposedly created heaven & earth resides? I wonder if blind faith doesn't question out of fear, indoctrination or both.

It must be comforting to think when death occurs a sentient essence from the body will travel somewhere to reunite with family & friends good enough to be where. The popular idea is they will join the creator. Where the creator is can't be in our known universe since creation would have to be outside what is created.

To answer the question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do?


I believe in evolution since I can see progression in life forms of all kinds adapting to changing conditions on our planet.


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## David777 (Jan 3, 2022)

I could respond to several posts but will not because the thread has long since vectored out in too many off topic directions, so members have lost focus on what others are talking about.  It does not help when someone conveniently uses a religious thread to bring up and complain about all manner of related reasons they don't like religion or gods especially if that is certain to provoke in kind refuting responses that then takes on a life of its own detracting from the narrower intent of a thread discussion.  

In college debate 101 classes, a classic tactic to gain control over the direction and focus of informal discussions is to purposely bring up something else one's opponent is sure to try to be capable of defending or make an _ad hominem _personal attack.  A wise person instead smilingly points to their motives, that whatever is off topic, and not be baited so. 

Will suggest re-reading on thread page 1 my post #8, on page 2 my post #38, page 3 post #7.


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## Shero (Jan 3, 2022)

Lara said:


> You are way off base. Of course I didn't base my post (not argument) on a Mel Gibson Movie. That was an example for you because you were having a hard time comprehending.
> 
> Yes, I am always studying the Bible "to find myself approved of God".
> 
> ...





Lara …calling someone names because you cannot handle the truth is …very immature.  

Peace be with you.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 4, 2022)

I'm getting tired of this.  Nobody here is going to change their mind,  well, I'm not.
I do not have any real answers, but unlike my parents who had an unquestioning  blind obedience (more so than blind belief), I have asked questions.  In the end, I do not find "life, the universe and everything"  compatible with the idea of a benevolent 'god'.
Amen.


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## Shero (Jan 4, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> I'm getting tired of this.  Nobody here is going to change their mind,  well, I'm not.
> I do not have any real answers, but unlike my parents who had an unquestioning  blind obedience (more so than blind belief), I have asked questions.  In the end, I do not find "life, the universe and everything"  compatible with the idea of a benevolent 'god'.
> Amen.


If you are really tired Cap'n, why add another post


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## Paco Dennis (Jan 4, 2022)

@Mr. Ed Someone I admired once said to me that why questions cannot be answered because they are too complex. But they are real fun to ponder on.  Just have fun with it. What you believe in can vary from make believe to physical stuff. The physical stuff we can indentify rather easily. The fairy tales, not so much. I think it is cool to not ask any questions in myself that bring about suffering. Physical suffering is about all I can take.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 4, 2022)

It is not my role to define the God you believe in or to convince you to believe anything that is not your own belief. I enjoy a stimulating ponderous discussion because thoughts such as these have no determining answers or explanations, yet they bring joy and satisfaction to my aging database.


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## Lara (Jan 4, 2022)

Telling someone they are off base is not calling them a name
Peace be with you


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## Paco Dennis (Jan 4, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> It is not my role to define the God you believe in or to convince you to believe anything that is not your own belief. I enjoy a stimulating ponderous discussion because thoughts such as these have no determining answers or explanations, yet they bring joy and satisfaction to my aging database.


  Yes, I also enjoy "free association" to unanswerable existential mysteries. It can and often leads to some very interesting insights.


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## Shero (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> Telling someone they are off base is not calling you names.
> You can't be overly sensitive in an online religious discussion.
> 
> Peace be with you



Oh dear, telling untruths Lara?   You said I had a "bullying disposition" , Go back and read your post # 176. 
.


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## Shero (Jan 4, 2022)

You say one cannot be oversensitive in religious discussion. I was not, but you were: Anyway, when I say this, hope you will not be “over sensitive” Lara dear.


The Bible was not written by God. It was written by dozens of scribes over a period of several hundred years.
The Bible is an historical work of art, not something to pin your entire life on.
Jesus never wrote a word either. Not ever. No evidence whatsoever of that.
Did Jesus ascend into “Heaven”? Well, he can’t ascend twice:
In Luke 24:13,33,50 says that Jesus ascended bodily to heaven on the evening of his resurrection, then… in Acts 1:3,9 says that he actually remained on earth for forty days and then ascended bodily to heaven.
I wish these scribes would make up their minds! Believe what you will, and I will stick to the facts. 
Bon soir, have a good day for I am off to sweet slumber. Shalom


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## Lara (Jan 4, 2022)

Labeling me a racist for using the word Jews when discussing how the Jews accused and tried Jesus and then took Him to the Romans yelling at them to "Crucify Him!" since they weren't allowed to" is not wrong. Saying, "the Jewish accused, tried Jesus, and " would be grammatically incorrect".


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## Pepper (Jan 4, 2022)




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## Aneeda72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Shero said:


> You say one cannot be oversensitive in religious discussion. I was not, but you were: Anyway, when I say this, hope you will not be “over sensitive” Lara dear.
> 
> 
> The Bible was not written by God. It was written by dozens of scribes over a period of several hundred years.
> ...


I do disagree on one issue.

 I would think that JC could ascend to heaven as many times as he wanted, and return to earth as many times as he wished-both in body and in spirit.  Like climbing a stair case, you can go up and down as much as you want.  The old if a tree falls in the forest does it still make a sound thing.  Just because the passage was not witnessed or mentioned -does not mean it did not happen.

The fact that the Bible only mentions two ascensions is important.  We both agree on what the Bible is.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> Oh yes, thank you for the reminder Shero. You, Pepper, and Aneeda did bully together on the internet playground.


Oh, gosh, thanks I thought you had forgotten about me.  I was crushed, well, not crushed, hmm, IGNORED, yes, that’s the word ignored.  I felt ignored.  You asked me, in a PM, to put you on ignore.  And I refused.  I actually like discussions with you.  Then, again, you might follow your own request so you will no longer FEEL like you are being bullied.

I am sorry you feel bullied when someone disagrees with you and when you are “proven” wrong.  But @Shero and I are not bullies.  We do like a lively discussion; but not a prejudice one.  It was the Romans that nailed JC to the cross and killed him.  Even your Bible agrees with this.

Your insistence on blaming the Jewish people is annoying, historically wrong, and insulting.  Yet, I have not accused you of anything, or called you names.  Think on that a while @Lara


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## JaniceM (Jan 4, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> We both agree on what the Bible is.


Oh not necessarily.
Although there have been endless translations and versions, some examples show where some are really at.

The longstanding King James, for example, says:  _13 Take care of God’s needy *people.*_
Evidently, that wasn't sufficient for some, as newer 'Christian' versions say:  _13 Share your belongings with your needy *fellow* *Christians*, _and _13 Share what you have with *Christian brothers *who are in need._

On a side note (not specifically connected to your post and not directed to you)- as a cult survivor (not a religious cult), I can spot manipulations such as others have made in numerous posts- the 'pat' expressions, one-upsmanship, etc., which leads me to end my involvement in these types of threads.


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## JaniceM (Jan 4, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> Oh, gosh, thanks I thought you had forgotten about me.  I was crushed, well, not crushed, hmm, IGNORED, yes, that’s the word ignored.  I felt ignored.  You asked me, in a PM, to put you on ignore.  And I refused.  I actually like discussions with you.  Then, again, you might follow your own request so you will no longer FEEL like you are being bullied.
> 
> I am sorry you feel bullied when someone disagrees with you and when you are “proven” wrong.  But @Shero and I are not bullies.  We do like a lively discussion; but not a prejudice one.  It was the Romans that nailed JC to the cross and killed him.  Even your Bible agrees with this.
> 
> *Your insistence on blaming the Jewish people is annoying, historically wrong, and insulting*.  Yet, I have not accused you of anything, or called you names.  Think on that a while @Lara



Ask what she thinks of Catholics


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## Lara (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> Labeling me a racist for using the word Jews when discussing how the Jews accused and tried Jesus and then took Him to the Romans yelling at them to "Crucify Him!" since they weren't allowed to" is not wrong. Saying, "the Jewish accused, tried Jesus, and " would be grammatically incorrect".


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## Pepper (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> Oh yes, thank you for the reminder Shero. You, Pepper, JaniceM, and Aneeda did gang-bully me after Pepper labeled me a racist for using the word Jews when discussing how the Jews accused and tried Jesus and then took Him to the Romans yelling at them to "Crucify Him!" since they weren't allowed to". Then went on to say I was revolting and disgusting for using the word "Jews". Btw. I use the word Christians too to describe a group of like minded people. Saying, "the Jewish accused, tried Jesus, and " would be grammatically incorrect".


I pity you for your stubbornness, pride and arrogance.  Are you being deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally?  The fact that you feel bullied is pathetic.  I'm sorry for you; as I said before I forgive you because you don't have the discernment to know what you are saying.  You are fighting the wrong battle.


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## Sunny (Jan 4, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> Oh, gosh, thanks I thought you had forgotten about me.  I was crushed, well, not crushed, hmm, IGNORED, yes, that’s the word ignored.  I felt ignored.  You asked me, in a PM, to put you on ignore.  And I refused.  I actually like discussions with you.  Then, again, you might follow your own request so you will no longer FEEL like you are being bullied.
> 
> I am sorry you feel bullied when someone disagrees with you and when you are “proven” wrong.  But @Shero and I are not bullies.  We do like a lively discussion; but not a prejudice one.  It was the Romans that nailed JC to the cross and killed him.  Even your Bible agrees with this.
> 
> *Your insistence on blaming the Jewish people is annoying, historically wrong, and insulting. * Yet, I have not accused you of anything, or called you names.  Think on that a while @Lara



The part of your quote in bold type is true, Aneeda, but I'd say it's the understatement of the century. That ancient lie about the Jews having killed Jesus has been responsible for literally millions of deaths, incredible cruelty, torture, exclusion, etc. It certainly helped the Holocaust to happen. And yet, here it is once again, alive and well.

The people fanning the flames of this ancient hatred are doing it because they need a scapegoat. If that's perfectly OK to do on a
"friendly" social forum, how about if we turn the tables?  How about the millions killed or tormented by the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and even today, the evil actions that still take place under the umbrella of Christianity?  (And none of that is a lie, it's sadly true.) Does that add one iota to world peace, kindness, or anything else good?

Even at best, endless discussions about Jesus (who - maybe - lived over 2000 years ago, give it a rest already!) do not belong on a social forum with diverse participants, in the year 2022. It might be appropriate in a religious discussion forum, but even there, I would tread lightly. This is not a theological seminary. And repeating ancient, and extremely harmful lies only serves to make people upset and angry. It's the kind of mentality that is usually found behind riots and lynchings, not to mention wars.  "Insulting" doesn't even begin to come close.


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## Lara (Jan 4, 2022)

Knight said:


> Back to the topic
> The question of belief is not what but why do we believe as we do?
> For me discussing who killed Jesus doesn't seem to answer that question.


I agree


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## Irwin (Jan 4, 2022)

To me, debating something Jesus said or did is tantamount to Jerry and George arguing who would emerge victorious in a fight between Superman and Batman.


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## Pepper (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> I agree


Then why were YOU the one who brought it up?  YOUR doing so is what provoked this in the first place.


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## Irwin (Jan 4, 2022)

Uh, oh... immediately after I made that post, my space heater tripped the breaker. I'm expecting a lightning bolt to come through the window!


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## Lara (Jan 4, 2022)

Now that you mention it, Irwin, I got a similar message yesterday after posting here. I got a Code Red sent to my phone (not medical...but weather related meaning "imminent danger"). 

A combination of a severe lightening/rain storm, wind gusts, and high tide all at once. The sea looked higher, waves were huge and angry, the house was shaking a little. Very scary because I thought the waves were going to go over the sand dune. 

Soo BIG, soo close! I took pics but my videos are more telling. Can't post iphone videos here though.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Sunny said:


> The part of your quote in bold type is true, Aneeda, but I'd say it's the understatement of the century. That ancient lie about the Jews having killed Jesus has been responsible for literally millions of deaths, incredible cruelty, torture, exclusion, etc. It certainly helped the Holocaust to happen. And yet, here it is once again, alive and well.
> 
> The people fanning the flames of this ancient hatred are doing it because they need a scapegoat. If that's perfectly OK to do on a
> "friendly" social forum, how about if we turn the tables?  How about the millions killed or tormented by the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and even today, the evil actions that still take place under the umbrella of Christianity?  (And none of that is a lie, it's sadly true.) Does that add one iota to world peace, kindness, or anything else good?
> ...


Well, I was trying to be diplomatic, cause I am a bully according to some people, well, one person.

 I agree with you-those without sin cast the first stone.  People who live in glass houses should not throw stones: and on and on.  The Catholic Church, and I became catholic late in life, is guilty of many horrors and is still guilty of on going horrors.  As are many Christians, but I leave it to JC to sort it out.  And to God to sort out the rest.

I disagree that this discussion does not belong here, however.  I believe diverse participants are needed and necessary to such a discussion.  People do need to learn not to be “thin skinned”and be informed as to how and what others believe.  Even if those beliefs are archaic.

Why do I believe as I do?  My part in the discussion indicates what I believe, how I got to this place in my beliefs, how my belief is still evolving, and how, despite a strong faith in JC, and GOD, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit; I still have questions.  We are allowed to question.

@Lara, in some ways, reminds me of my mother.  She, at 96 soon to be 97, has become very Bible thumping for lack of a better word.  Once on vacation, a decade or so ago, we were all at my hotel.  Crazy witch that she is, she said; knowing that I was Catholic, “you know your nephew and his family are Jewish?”  

“Yes, I do.“. .

 I had always wondered if she expect me to pull out a sub machine gun and start firing.  My parents were non denominational as adults.  But there are in our ancestry, on our fathers side, a Germany Jewish connection.  My brother remained Christian, but no certain denomination.  I doubt he was baptized.  His son converted to become Jewish after marrying a Jewish woman.  Their children are, of course, Jewish.

I chose to become Catholic and was baptized as such and married in the Catholic Church.  My children are Catholic.  I have no problem with the religion my nephew and his family have.


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## Knight (Jan 4, 2022)

@Lara You are safe. The code red didn't include a media report of a big boat full of animals.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Lara said:


> Oh yes, thank you for the reminder Shero. You, Pepper, JaniceM, and Aneeda did gang-bully me after Pepper labeled me a racist for using the word Jews when discussing how the Jews accused and tried Jesus and then took Him to the Romans yelling at them to "Crucify Him!" since they weren't allowed to". Then went on to say I was revolting and disgusting for using the word "Jews". Btw. I use the word Christians too to describe a group of like minded people. Saying, "the Jewish accused, tried Jesus, and " would be grammatically incorrect".


Wow, and now @JaniceM joins the bully list for giving an opinion in a discussion.

Here is a suggestion; if you feel bullied by people in the discussion, leave the discussion.  Here is another suggestion; put the people you feel are negative towards you on ignore; a third suggestions and my favorite, stop labeling people and continue with the discussion and, oh gee, admit you are wrong.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 4, 2022)

The whole point of mental exercise was to illustrate the diversity of perception among individuals discussing a designated topic. By accepting these differences in each other perhaps people would not have a desire to alter or change another human being. Perhaps I am the one who needs to change?


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 4, 2022)

Its not the topic but the way people respond to each other with opposing views.


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## Knight (Jan 4, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> Its not the topic but the way people respond to each other with opposing views.


Do you think the various posts reflect the way a conversation would be face to face?


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## JaniceM (Jan 4, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> Its not the topic but the way people respond to each other with opposing views.


I agree with what you said there.  
It's one thing for individuals to say 'I am (or I believe'.. (fill in whatever it is, with or without a reason), but it's much different to assert that individuals with other beliefs don't know anything about God, the Bible, etc.


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## JaniceM (Jan 4, 2022)

Knight said:


> Do you think the various posts reflect the way a conversation would be face to face?


Probably.


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## Sunny (Jan 4, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> The whole point of mental exercise was to illustrate the diversity of perception among individuals discussing a designated topic. By accepting these differences in each other perhaps people would not have a desire to alter or change another human being. Perhaps I am the one who needs to change?



I think that there is diversity of perception, and then there is hate speech. If we were discussing present-day pop music vs. the music of the mid-20th century, or whether someone is a great actor or a terrible one, that is a diversity of perception. Bringing ridiculously archaic, poisonous accusations into the discussion, aimed at one particular group who have too often been the victims of such accusations, is a passive-aggressive act of hate. At best, it is initiated by someone who is apparently trying to offend people and start a fight, while acting holier-than-thou. A perfect example of trolling.

Let's switch to a different set of victims, but the same point. What if someone deliberately dragged the worst, and completely untrue, racist accusations into a discussion, against Blacks, Latinos, Asians, or whoever? Even on a forum where members of those groups are present?  (But sort of just as bad even if they weren't.) Would that be OK as a forum discussion? Where should the line be drawn?


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 4, 2022)

Nice put! I am but a poor man seeking solace from this crazy planet called earth. Beam me up Scotty, it is not worth rebuilding.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Sunny said:


> I think that there is diversity of perception, and then there is hate speech. If we were discussing present-day pop music vs. the music of the mid-20th century, or whether someone is a great actor or a terrible one, that is a diversity of perception. Bringing ridiculously archaic, poisonous accusations into the discussion, aimed at one particular group who have too often been the victims of such accusations, is a passive-aggressive act of hate. At best, it is initiated by someone who is apparently trying to offend people and start a fight, while acting holier-than-thou. A perfect example of trolling.
> 
> Let's switch to a different set of victims, but the same point. What if someone deliberately dragged the worst, and completely untrue, racist accusations into a discussion, against Blacks, Latinos, Asians, or whoever? Even on a forum where members of those groups are present?  (But sort of just as bad even if they weren't.) Would that be OK as a forum discussion? Where should the line be drawn?


Actually to a limited extent that has happened on SF concerning people of color, the homeless, etc.  And the name calling has been worst.  The line should not be drawn in a free society with limited freedom of speech.

And our freedom of speech is limited.  And SF does have rules.

This is a discussion open to people who were raised with different rules and different expectations in different time periods.  Some of us rejected the crap from the beginning, some of us became aware over time, and some of us seemed to have stayed with the belief systems of the 1950’s.  But all of us have opinions which is what makes these discussions so interesting.

My grandmother married into a family that, one generation earlier, owned a plantation and slaves.  That plantation was renamed a farm.  Now it is a ranch.  During the Great Depression my mother was sent to work on that farm, as a teenager, to pick cotton.

My mother is white/Native American.  She worked along side the paid black workers.  She was not paid.  She worked for room and board for her Uncle.  This property is still owned by that section of the family.  The property is in some history books.

I was taught not to see the color of a person’s skin or consider their religion or wealth or place in the world.  One of the few redeeming values of my parents.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 4, 2022)

Question: Would you rebuild the world or cut your losses and start a new project?


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## Shero (Jan 4, 2022)

Any of you devotees celebrate Epiphany?

_



_


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## grahamg (Jan 4, 2022)

Not that it really matters at all but I've only now spotted the spelling error in the thread title, (I mention it just to prove how inattentive or "thick" I've become, would you "beleive"  !):

Creativity of Belief: The question of belief is not what but why do we beleive as we do?​


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## dseag2 (Jan 4, 2022)

Wow, I missed out on so much while I was out of town!  I just found out that Aneeda and Pepper are bullies and got to enjoy Lara's sacred stilettos in her avatar.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 5, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Wow, I missed out on so much while I was out of town!  I just found out that Aneeda and Pepper are bullies and got to enjoy Lara's sacred stilettos in her avatar.


You left out Janice


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## JaniceM (Jan 5, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> You left out Janice


Thank you, @Aneeda72


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## Irwin (Jan 5, 2022)

People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.


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## grahamg (Jan 5, 2022)

Irwin said:


> People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.


Interesting post, particularly in relation to truth or truthfulness.

I dont think it would be all that easy to prove your hypothesis one way or the other, but the importance of truth was apparently so great in the estimation of one religious man five hundred years ago, that he refused to listen to exhortations made by his daughter that he should put his name to a document everyone was being forced to sign in Tudor England, in order to save his own life.

That man was of course Sir Thomas More, who worked for the archbishop of Canterbury in England at one time, so was very devout himself it can be assumed, and he held some of the highest offices of the state during the rule of Henry VIII. 

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Sir-Thomas-More/


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Irwin said:


> People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.


Probably best to leave political comments out.


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## JaniceM (Jan 6, 2022)

Irwin said:


> People are probably fairly consistent in how much they value truth. I would guess that religious people are more likely to doubt the science behind vaccinations and the wearing of masks, and to doubt the results of the last election as well as participating in the insurrection and coup attempt, and to believe other conspiracy theories that have no basis in reality. That's why, if given the choice, I'd never choose a religious doctor, nor would I ever take the advice of a religious person for anything other than something relating to religion, which I have very limited interest in other than regarding its effects on society and politics.


As much as I hate psychobabble and all related approaches- it depends on which 'truth' you're referring to. 
As for covid, for example, there have been incidents in the news where, after insisting "science" was wrong, ministers etc. caught it and died from it.


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