# The "trial-and-error" Phase of the Country's re-opening



## Ronni (May 10, 2020)

From Max Fisher of the New York Times.

_"There are still huge unanswered questions about the virus. How many people have it, and, by extension, how deadly is it? How often do children spread it? Are people who’ve had it immune from getting it again?

In the United States, there are also unmet benchmarks — which epidemiologists say should be met before reopening. The U.S. is testing fewer people per capita than other countries, and the outbreak is still growing in many states that are starting to reopen.

So how bad will reopening turn out to be?

The most likely scenario, many experts believe, is that the U.S. will spark new outbreaks by ending lockdowns without a more solid plan. That, in turn, could have tragic consequences, with thousands of avoidable deaths.

The US is pushing for reopening as cases continue rising in many parts of the country.” The administration has rejected reopening guidelines from government scientists, calling them too strict.

The author has a useful — if chilling — way of thinking about the new phase: It’s the “trial-and-error” phase, in which different countries take different approaches and the world witnesses the results.

Lithuania, betting that outdoor activity is safer, is blocking off streets for outdoor restaurant service. California is encouraging curbside pickup instead. Denmark is opening schools to younger children (who may be less contagious), while Germany is opening for older children (who may do better following instructions).

“Few want to acknowledge it, but these first phases of reopening are big experiments meant to test the unknowns,” Max told me. “It’s a dangerous game, and it’s worth being cleareyed about the risks we’re all taking on.”_


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## Em in Ohio (May 10, 2020)

Places in Germany and Russia that reopened are again shutting down because of the upsurge of new cases.  Sadly, the 'errors' of reopening too soon and the people who ignore the basic guidelines will result in more illness and death.  But hey, as long as it boosts the economy.


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## Sunny (May 10, 2020)

Today's paper already reported a surge in new cases as soon as several states reopened.


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## rgp (May 10, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Places in Germany and Russia that reopened are again shutting down because of the upsurge of new cases.  Sadly, the 'errors' of reopening too soon and the people who ignore the basic guidelines will result in more illness and death.  But hey, as long as it boosts the economy.




 If we keep the economy "down" eventually we will starve to death....do you prefer that?

 People must work, just to obtain the basics....keep the kids fed. And some of the "work", is in what may seem unnecessary...certain types of entertainment / restaurants/bars..theaters & so-on but!....if that is where a person has earned a living?.... returning to it is all they can think of.


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## Em in Ohio (May 10, 2020)

rgp said:


> If we keep the economy "down" eventually we will starve to death....do you prefer that?
> 
> People must work, just to obtain the basics....keep the kids fed. And some of the "work", is in what may seem unnecessary...certain types of entertainment / restaurants/bars..theaters & so-on but!....if that is where a person has earned a living?.... returning to it is all they can think of.


I'm thinking that 'farm subsidies' should be a priority.


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## fmdog44 (May 10, 2020)

China and South Korea are seeing spikes now. Yesterday I watched a healthcare professional say we could be wearing masks for as long as five years!


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## Aunt Bea (May 10, 2020)

IMO we will see a spike in new cases and deaths as we reopen and probably another spike in the fall. 

We may be at work, in the barber chair, the mall, the park, etc...  That doesn't mean that it's safe or that the virus is gone.  We still need to follow the same basic precautions including staying home as much as possible, social distancing, wearing a mask, washing our hands, etc...

We've all been through our two-month _boot camp_ and now it's really up to each of us to do what we can to protect ourselves and each other until a TNT treatment and vaccine is available.


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## C'est Moi (May 10, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> I'm thinking that 'farm subsidies' should be a priority.


How long do you think the government can subsidize anything with no one working??   People need to get real with this.


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## C'est Moi (May 10, 2020)

I don't know why everyone is so hell-bent on "TESTING."   Someone can be tested, they are negative for the virus, and in an hour they are exposed and contract the virus.   So why the big emphasis on testing?   We can't test everyone, every hour so it's a waste in my opinion.   This is getting ridiculous and I'm exhausted with the hysteria.


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## Don M. (May 10, 2020)

I doubt we will see any appreciable declines in this virus over the next few months....instead, we will probably see an increase in numbers as our society begins to open up.  Some say the Summer weather will cause a decline, and another spike in the Fall, but if people don't follow the recommended guidelines, as the economy opens up, any declines may be short lived.


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## Em in Ohio (May 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I don't know why everyone is so hell-bent on "TESTING."   Someone can be tested, they are negative for the virus, and in an hour they are exposed and contract the virus.   So why the big emphasis on testing?   We can't test everyone, every hour so it's a waste in my opinion.   This is getting ridiculous and I'm exhausted with the hysteria.


Take a nap.


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## Sunny (May 10, 2020)

I have wondered the same thing about the testing, especially since there is nothing much that can be done medically if anyone does have it. Probably the main value of the testing is to identify clusters, and would make it easier to warn people to stay away from certain areas, etc.  And of course, if somebody does turn out positive for the virus, with or without being sick, they would know to stay away from other people for several weeks, to avoid spreading it.

Testing negative probably doesn't do any good, for the individual concerned.  They should all be careful anyway, and keep to themselves as much as possible.  That's all anyone can do until there is a vaccine.


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## CarolfromTX (May 10, 2020)

So here's the thing. People are getting tired of this already. Social distancing? Not so much from what I've seen. People are unwilling to put their lives on hold because of a virus which may or may not affect them. And lets be honest. Life is uncertain, and fraught with danger. Always has been. Car accidents, cancer, heart disease, lightning, dog bites, all the things that are waiting to kill you. Most Americans will be unwilling to wear a mask for five years. Hell, most of them are unwilling to wear it for 5 minutes. You want to keep families apart for years? Ain't happening. You want to stay in? Fine with me. I was terrified at first, but now I'm just kinda mad.

I wear a mask in public. But am I willing to do that for years? NO. I'll take my chances.

We had plans before this started. Trips to Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Key West. I don't want to give that up.

And my final point -- so much of these rules just shred the Constitution and  abridge our rights. Governors are acting like tin pot dictators. People's livelyhoods are threatened or even ruined. Enough already!!


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## Ronni (May 10, 2020)

Separate from the various White House Mandates, and the Executive Orders from State Governors and local Mayors, which at this time, at least in my state, can't actually be enforced, there is also one's individual risk assessment.

My own personal assessment of risk may not be the same as yours (the general "you" not any of you personally.) Mine may be higher.  Mine may be dictated by the fact that I'm high risk, either because of health or age, or both, or perhaps because I'm a caregiver to, or close to, or live with  someone who is.  Or perhaps I'm just extremely anxious and stressed about the virus and its potential for harm.

While I personally have NO expectation that everyone is going to stay in and wear a mask and social distance and sanitize everything for months or years so that *I* can stay safe, I DO expect a baseline of common courtesy and respect from those around me.  I expect to be told if you do something that might be of risk to me.  I expect to be given the choice as to whether or not I'm willing to expose myself to what you've done, and not be judged or ridiculed for exercising that choice. 

If I'm out doing necessary errands, I expect that you will at the very least keep your distance especially if you refuse to wear a mask, and grant me the courtesy to move past you without you crowding me, or if I step away you won't keep closing the distance. 

I expect to not be shamed because I'm choosing differently than you, or ridiculed because I'm taking extreme precautions.  I expect a decree of reciprocity....if I'm not giving you a hard time because you're more casual in your approach, *I* don't expect you to be giving me one because I'm more cautious. 

I'm not going to insist that you step up to my level of caution so please DO NOT insist that I step down to yours.  Let me do my thing.  Feel free to do yours....just please keep your distance while you're doing it.


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## CarolfromTX (May 10, 2020)

No one is insisting you stop doing what you're doing to feel safe. Have you been ridiculed for wearing a mask? I have not. But I think a whole lot of people are just willing to take their chances, just to get their life back to normal. I can't say I blame them.


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> No one is insisting you stop doing what you're doing to feel safe. Have you been ridiculed for wearing a mask? I have not. But I think a whole lot of people are just willing to take their chances, just to get their life back to normal. I can't say I blame them.



And will you still feel this way once you've been infected and realize you may have infected even more and you're in the hospital not knowing if you're gonna live? I'm just asking.


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## Ronni (May 10, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> No one is insisting you stop doing what you're doing to feel safe. Have you been ridiculed for wearing a mask? I have not. But I think a whole lot of people are just willing to take their chances, just to get their life back to normal. I can't say I blame them.


I’ve been chastised for being as cautious as I’m being. I’ve been questioned and doubted and told I’m over-reacting, and have had someone I trusted go out and socialize and hang out with two different groups of people with no intention of telling me, and it was entirely by chance that I found out before I came into contact with her again, and then told *I* was wrong for minding.

So yeah. I’ve been ridiculed and betrayed and belittled for my own level of caution and risk assessment.


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I’ve been chastised for being as cautious as I’m being. I’ve been questioned and doubted and told I’m over-reacting, and have had someone I trusted go out and socialize and hang out with two different groups of people with no intention of telling me, and it was entirely by chance that I found out before I came into contact with her again, and then told *I* was wrong for minding.
> 
> So yeah. I’ve been ridiculed and betrayed and belittled for my own level of caution and risk assessment.



I've caught flack for distancing cuz they think I'm being a snob. They don't seem to get the fact that I'm older. My chances of surviving are a lot less than theirs.


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## win231 (May 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I don't know why everyone is so hell-bent on "TESTING."   Someone can be tested, they are negative for the virus, and in an hour they are exposed and contract the virus.   So why the big emphasis on testing?   We can't test everyone, every hour so it's a waste in my opinion.   This is getting ridiculous and I'm exhausted with the hysteria.


Re: Testing.  During a crisis, people are desperate to have faith in something - whether it's useful or not.  And fear & panic interferes with some people's ability to reason.  And there is serious profit in mass testing.


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## Camper6 (May 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I don't know why everyone is so hell-bent on "TESTING."   Someone can be tested, they are negative for the virus, and in an hour they are exposed and contract the virus.   So why the big emphasis on testing?   We can't test everyone, every hour so it's a waste in my opinion.   This is getting ridiculous and I'm exhausted with the hysteria.


Well testing makes sense to me.  First of all you want to know if you yourself are testing negative.
Then all the negatives can go out to work and associate with each other.
Many negatives make a positive.
What is the point of sending anyone out to work if they are testing positive?


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## SeaBreeze (May 10, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO we will see a spike in new cases and deaths as we reopen and probably another spike in the fall.
> 
> We may be at work, in the barber chair, the mall, the park, etc...  That doesn't mean that it's safe or that the virus is gone.  We still need to follow the same basic precautions including staying home as much as possible, social distancing, wearing a mask, washing our hands, etc...
> 
> We've all been through our two-month _boot camp_ and now it's really up to each of us to do what we can to protect ourselves and each other until a TNT treatment and vaccine is available.


I agree Aunt Bea, I'll still be cautious for awhile even if everything reopens.  A couple of days ago my husband ordered a couple of propane tanks from Lowes for camping, one of ours is too old to refill anymore.  Anyhoo, I went into the store (first time I've been in a store since mid-March), and I had my mask on.

They didn't have the tanks yet at the customer service counter ready for pickup, so I went to the aisle they were in and got them myself.  Things were pretty good there, everything was marked, people stood where they were supposed to, keeping a safe distance.  All the workers and most of the customers had on masks.  The clerks were actively wiping down the counter with disinfectant wipes after each customer, plastic guards were up.

This week I plan to go with my husband to Sam's Club, Costco, Safeway and Kroger supermarkets.  We'll both have masks on, and shop as safe and quickly as we can, no lollygagging.


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

I've only been inside the supermarket once in a month maybe 2. I don't know. It's been a while. Last time I was there...it was weird after not being *inside* for so long.


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## C'est Moi (May 10, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Well testing makes sense to me.  First of all you want to know if you yourself are testing negative.
> Then all the negatives can go out to work and associate with each other.
> Many negatives make a positive.
> What is the point of sending anyone out to work if they are testing positive?


My point was that even if you test negative right now, you could possibly be exposed to the virus 10 minutes from now.   I believe the estimates are that over 50% of people with the virus have no symptoms.


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## C'est Moi (May 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I've only been inside the supermarket once in a month maybe 2. I don't know. It's been a while. Last time I was there...it was weird after not being *inside* for so long.


I have not left my home AT ALL for over 2 months.   I'm the self-isolation poster child.  (And if I get the virus I will be soooo pissed.  )


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> My point was that even if you test negative right now, you could possibly be exposed to the virus 10 minutes from now.   I believe the estimates are that over 50% of people with the virus have no symptoms.



Don't you have to have some of the symptoms before they test you?


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I have not left my home AT ALL for over 2 months.   I'm the self-isolation poster child.  (And if I get the virus I will be soooo pissed.  )


 
You and me both.


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## C'est Moi (May 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Don't you have to have some of the symptoms before they test you?


That's what I believe, but they change the rules every couple of days.


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## MarciKS (May 10, 2020)

Unless you're the president. LOL


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## C'est Moi (May 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Unless you're the president. LOL


Or a player in the NBA.  Or some second-rate "celebrity."


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## grahamg (May 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Or a player in the NBA.  Or some second-rate "celebrity."


 !


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## asp3 (May 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I don't know why everyone is so hell-bent on "TESTING."   Someone can be tested, they are negative for the virus, and in an hour they are exposed and contract the virus.   So why the big emphasis on testing?   We can't test everyone, every hour so it's a waste in my opinion.   This is getting ridiculous and I'm exhausted with the hysteria.



Without accurate testing we cannot get a realistic understanding of several things:

1. How contagious is the virus
2. How many people have the virus without having any symptoms
3. What the actual chances of dying from the virus are
4. Insights into how the virus is spreading

There also need to be two accurate types of testing, do you currently have the virus and have you had the virus and have developed antibodies to the virus.

You are correct that a person can get a test, test negative and be infected 10 minutes after they tested negative, but even that would give us an idea of how contagious the disease is depending on what they did between the time they were tested negative and then were later tested as positive.

Although their isolation might have more to do with their success than testing Iceland has been able to keep the disease to minimal impact with widespread testing.  I haven't read much more about the efforts to contain the virus in Iceland but I think they've been successful.


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## grahamg (May 11, 2020)

Included in assessments during the trial and error phase and the relaxing of the lockdown, are considerations such as the use of masks or face coverings, and how far people must remain apart, as we know(?).

There are of course people in other countries, (and some people from those countries residing here), where half their population is used to wearing face coverings, and considerable social distancing exists, even between husbands and their wives on the streets.

Recognising where the power lies in most Western countries the husband would have to walk at a considerable distance behind their wife, should we wish to reduce any associated risks of spreading the virus caused by couples walking together on sidewalks, or pavements, meeting others people who they are unable to pass at the recommended distance apart, in the "trial and error" phase!      .

BTW I think the previous post to this one and my own post here, fit together really well, a bit like "the ying and yang" of the Coronavirus crisis, (him putting forward sensible ideas, whilst I provide the corresponding none sense!).      .


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## grahamg (May 11, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Well testing makes sense to me.  First of all you want to know if you yourself are testing negative.
> Then all the negatives can go out to work and associate with each other.
> Many negatives make a positive.
> What is the point of sending anyone out to work if they are testing positive?



I agree that there is a point to testing, obviously some getting tested, maybe regularly tested makes sense too, although with widespread testing as now envisaged you have to factor in the risks going to and forth to testing centres, then having someone swab or scrape your mouth, or whatever test is required cannot be done under social distancing, and those doing the testing become potential vectors too.


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## Rosemarie (May 11, 2020)

I think the danger is that people may think the risk has lessened once the 'lockdown' is eased. It's important to continue with caution, keeping our distance, and paying extra attention to cleanliness.


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## Camper6 (May 11, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I agree that there is a point to testing, obviously some getting tested, maybe regularly tested makes sense too, although with widespread testing as now envisaged you have to factor in the risks going to and forth to testing centres, then having someone swab or scrape your mouth, or whatever test is required cannot be done under social distancing, and those doing the testing become potential vectors too.


Our city is doing drive in testing. You sit in your car. There's a risk in everything but you have to find out. They can't even keep it out of the White House and then talk about reopening the country?


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## Camper6 (May 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> My point was that even if you test negative right now, you could possibly be exposed to the virus 10 minutes from now.   I believe the estimates are that over 50% of people with the virus have no symptoms.


What are the odds that, that will happen to everyone tested? Minimal at worst scenario.


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## CarolfromTX (May 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> And will you still feel this way once you've been infected and realize you may have infected even more and you're in the hospital not knowing if you're gonna live? I'm just asking.


Whoa, there cowgirl! Ain't none of that happened yet. You got a crystal ball? We've been very careful. I've made masks for other people. I wash my hands. For you to say something like that is just stupid. You're hysterical. Go away.


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## MarciKS (May 11, 2020)

I am not hysterical. It was a simple question. You don't need to be mean.


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## Camper6 (May 11, 2020)

Bad hair day ladies. Me too.


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## MarciKS (May 11, 2020)

It's ok Camper6. I think I'm done with the COVID thread.


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## Sunny (May 11, 2020)

Every day is a bad hair day.  

But that's another topic.


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## Ken N Tx (May 11, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I think the danger is that people may think the risk has lessened once the 'lockdown' is eased. It's important to continue with caution, keeping our distance, and paying extra attention to cleanliness.


...I think it is a bad thing, cases have increased faster than before...


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## rgp (May 11, 2020)

If [some] folks feel they no longer have a life [for any reason] and are only maintaining a mere existence ....then they are very likely willing to [roll the dice] and get back to having a life , a life that fulfills .

However, if a person or persons are willing to cower in fear ?.... for as long as they can, then that is what they are going to do.

But for one or the other to impose their needs on the other is IMO.... just wrong. We all must live life to the fullest .... or to at least live it to satisfaction that only we know for ourselves.

As for the [nation] ? Make no mistake ... it would IMO be a mistake to keep the country "closed" any longer. Again, America was built on her industrial might .... and has made her reputation & earned her respect on that might ..... we cannot let it slip away.


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## garyt1957 (May 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Today's paper already reported a surge in new cases as soon as several states reopened.


Since it takes up to 14 days for people to show symptoms, I'd think it's a little too early to say definitively that any upsurge in cases is caused by reopening. Certainly could be, but I think we'd need to wait a couple weeks to get a good idea.  But it seems inevitable that there will be more cases.


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## garyt1957 (May 11, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Well testing makes sense to me.  First of all you want to know if you yourself are testing negative.
> Then all the negatives can go out to work and associate with each other.
> Many negatives make a positive.
> What is the point of sending anyone out to work if they are testing positive?



As someone else already pointed out, so you're tested and come up negative. The next day you go out and get exposed. You now have the virus but you tested negative just a day ago. Are you going to get tested every day?  Unless they came up with a home 1 minute test like a blood sugar test where you can test yourself everyday at home, I don't see how it can work. But I've been wrong before.


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## garyt1957 (May 11, 2020)

asp3 said:


> You are correct that a person can get a test, test negative and be infected 10 minutes after they tested negative, but even that would give us an idea of how contagious the disease is depending on what they did between the time they were tested negative and then were later tested as positive.
> 
> 
> > But again, how often are you going to be tested? That person that got tested and is negative then gets the virus 10 minutes later is going to be spreading it until they're tested again. Are we going to test everybody every day? If they have no, or mildsymptoms \, they'll likely not get tested again.


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## garyt1957 (May 11, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I think the danger is that people may think the risk has lessened once the 'lockdown' is eased. It's important to continue with caution, keeping our distance, and paying extra attention to cleanliness.


Agree. I've heard this a couple times now, "As soon as they open things up I'm going to get my hair done, whatever" As if because they're slowly opening various areas they're now totally safe, because the govt says so. Makes me think of this:


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## Sunny (May 11, 2020)

> However, if a person or persons are willing to cower in fear ?.... for as long as they can, then that is what they are going to do.
> 
> But for one or the other to impose their needs on the other is IMO.... just wrong. We all must live life to the fullest .... or to at least live it to satisfaction that only we know for ourselves.



Wow, rpg, that one has gotta take the cake!  "Cower in fear?"  Here's a news flash for you: there are times that reacting with a bit of fear is the healthy, intelligent thing to do.  Have you actually read any of the descriptions of this horrific illness, and what it does to the human body?  Being afraid of it is normal; swaggering around like a character in an old western movie is not.

That doesn't mean you have to sit at home, shaking in your cowboy boots.  It means you do your best to avoid getting it, and to avoid spreading it to others, just in case you happen to be carrying the virus.  "The satisfaction that only we know for ourselves" is the most uncaring, selfish philosophy of life that I have ever seen.  And how twisted, to put momentary economic concerns, and election outcomes, ahead of human life.


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## fmdog44 (May 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I have not left my home AT ALL for over 2 months.   I'm the self-isolation poster child.  (And if I get the virus I will be soooo pissed.  )


You need to get out to get some exposure to the sun even if only for a few minutes.


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## fmdog44 (May 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Don't you have to have some of the symptoms before they test you?


Not any more.


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## asp3 (May 11, 2020)

Here's an article about a recent increase in COVID-19 cases in South Korea which has been linked to one 29 year old man who visited five nightclubs before testing positive for COVID-19.

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...ew-coronavirus-cases-after-nightclub-outbreak


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## fmdog44 (May 11, 2020)

05/11/2020 As for Texas in the past 24 hours there have been 1009 new cases and 21 new deaths In the past week 7,321 new cases and 221new deaths.
Reopen? I don't think so.  I'll stay home thank you.


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## Aunt Bea (May 11, 2020)

The governor announced today that my region and a few other regions of New York State have met the CDC guidelines to begin phase one reopening on or after May 15th.

The first phase is limited to construction, manufacturing, all retail curbside pickup, drive-in movies, horticulture, and agriculture.  It is also limited to only those businesses in these categories that have modified their workplace and business practices to accommodate the CDC guidelines for social distancing, testing, reporting, etc...

The first phase also contains some provisions to reopen or provide child daycare but no details on that have been provided in the announcement.

Phase one and future phases may be restricted if the infection rate, hospitalizations, and deaths begin to increase.

Baby steps!


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## C'est Moi (May 11, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> You need to get out to get some exposure to the sun even if only for a few minutes.


Oh, I go outside in my own yard, so I should have said I haven't gone beyond my property.  I couldn't live without some sunshine and those weeds aren't going to pull themselves!


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## Becky1951 (May 11, 2020)

rgp said:


> If [some] folks feel they no longer have a life [for any reason] and are only maintaining a mere existence ....then they are very likely willing to [roll the dice] and get back to having a life , a life that fulfills .
> 
> However, if a person or persons are willing to cower in fear ?.... for as long as they can, then that is what they are going to do.
> 
> ...


"However, if a person or persons are willing to cower in fear ?.... for as long as they can, then that is what they are going to do."

Cower in fear?
Are you referring to those who wish to be extra cautious and wait longer before leaving their homes? I'm one of those. I am not cowering in fear! I have just about everything illness the CDC lists plus my age that makes me a target for death if I get Covid-19.

I'm being sensible for my health and not taking chances. A far cry from cowering in fear.


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## rgp (May 11, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> "However, if a person or persons are willing to cower in fear ?.... for as long as they can, then that is what they are going to do."
> 
> Cower in fear?
> Are you referring to those who wish to be extra cautious and wait longer before leaving their homes? I'm one of those. I am not cowering in fear! I have just about everything illness the CDC lists plus my age that makes me a target for death if I get Covid-19.
> ...




 Well....we see it differently I guess.


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## jerry old (May 11, 2020)

Not encouraging information, but important.

Goggle: as of May 1, 2020,  5000 Correction officers have tested positive for Covid 19.
The number of prisoners in your state prisons and county jails that have tested positive for Covid 19 difficult is astounding .
(Your state prison population of infected prisoners should be on Goggle.)

Now the poor, the ignorant, and the myriad reasons people have for ignoring this plague.-what of them?
If we term it a plague, it becomes much larger problem than a virus.  Plague is not a
word one can ignore and Covid 19  is a plague.


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## Em in Ohio (May 12, 2020)

Survival depends upon a species' ability to adapt.

A predatory virus, combined with those who are not willing to be part of the solution (rather than part of the problem), will continue to adapt to insure its own survival.


jerry old said:


> Not encouraging information, but important.
> 
> Goggle: as of May 1, 2020,  5000 Correction officers have tested positive for Covid 19.
> The number of prisoners in your state prisons and county jails that have tested positive for Covid 19 difficult is astounding .
> ...


Technically, a plague is defined:  "_Plague_ is an infectious disease caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis, usually found in small mammals and their fleas. The disease is transmitted between animals via their fleas and, as it is a zoonotic bacterium, it can also transmit from animals to humans."  

But, we are certainly all _plagued_ by the Covid-19 pandemic.  Whatever can encourage compliance with social distancing and masking is fine with me.


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## Ronni (May 12, 2020)

Y'know, all this talk of "cowering in fear" implies that this virus is something you can best, something you can overcome, slay, defeat,  as you would an actual physical enemy, if you just had enough damn courage to go up against it.  

Really?  Seriously? 

There's a difference between cowering, which implies being frozen, immobile with terror, and taking thoughtful and judicious steps to avoid becoming contaminated.  

You can do what you want, but I sure as hell am not going to bare my breast to the "enemy" of Covid-19 and say COME GET ME YOU MOTHER!!!! and then draw my sword and prepare to fight.  There are times I even WISH this "enemy" was that visible, something I could go head to head with.

I don't lack for courage.  I know that about myself, and I don't need to prove that to anyone.  Courage isn't what is going to get me through the worst of this pandemic.  If it were, I'd likely come out the other side unscathed. 

This "enemy" is sneaky.  Covid is sly, devious and lethal when it gets a chance.  It doesn't recognize courage.  It just marches straight on through, jumps from host to host and brings them to their knees often in spite of reasonable precautions. It's unseen.  It's cunning.  It's lethal.  

Courage isn't what will get us through this, keep us alive, and living to fight another day.  Nope. This is the kind of situation where discretion is the better part of valor.  That's what will win the day.


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## Ronni (May 12, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Technically, a plague is defined:  "_Plague_ is an infectious disease caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis, usually found in small mammals and their fleas. The disease is transmitted between animals via their fleas and, as it is a zoonotic bacterium, it can also transmit from animals to humans."
> 
> But, we are certainly all _plagued_ by the Covid-19 pandemic.  Whatever can encourage compliance with social distancing and masking is fine with me.



There is another more general definition of plague.  
_An epidemic disease that causes high mortality; pestilence. an infectious, epidemic disease_

I think that definition could apply to Covid-19 especially since it has been described as a pandemic, which is defined as (a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.


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## Em in Ohio (May 12, 2020)

Ronni said:


> There is another more general definition of plague.
> _An epidemic disease that causes high mortality; pestilence. an infectious, epidemic disease_
> 
> I think that definition could apply to Covid-19 especially since it has been described as a pandemic, which is defined as (a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.


If the word "plague" raises awareness and social consciousness, let's use it!


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## Ronni (May 12, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> If the word "plague" raises awareness and social consciousness, let's use it!


EXACTLY!!!


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## Aunt Bea (May 12, 2020)

I agree with others it's not about cowering in fear it's about being smart.

Do what needs to be done but do it in the safest way possible to protect yourself and the people you care about.


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## Butterfly (May 12, 2020)

Yes.  Courage isn't about running into the line of fire just because you can.


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## rgp (May 12, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y'know, all this talk of "cowering in fear" implies that this virus is something you can best, something you can overcome, slay, defeat,  as you would an actual physical enemy, if you just had enough damn courage to go up against it.
> 
> Really?  Seriously?
> 
> ...




  If a person "fears" going out, continuing with normal life?, then yes they are indeed cowering in fear.

  Look up the word cower...it fits. 

If a person needs to confine themselves?...fine but stop telling others what they need to do. Others need to work [if they can] . And some need to "get out" just to maintain their sanity .

 We cannot keep this collective "cowering" up for too long.....the country will collapse financially .


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## jerry old (May 12, 2020)

Ronni

The medical community continues to labor under a high state
of anxiety.
There begging our 'leaders' to address this 'plague' with the
seriousness it demands.
Some do, as Como in NY; others feel economics are more important that presentation.
The federal govt has no ability  to limit the behavior of the nation unless they are in violation of federal guidelines.
(They can declare marshal law, but that is not to be considered.)

This is not a blithe situation, why some feel they can continue their activities as before assures the disease will remain with us.
Why did I suddenly change from calling it a pandemic to a plague?
1.  When I located the number of prison correction officers as of May 3-5000
2.  I am not overly sensitive to the plight of prisoners, but you  have a community, herded together like livestock, with virtually no method to avoid infections.  There is no spokesman for prisoners.
3.  State Psychiatric Hospitals have always been hell holes, no one gives a damn about them. They too are inundated with
covid 19.
Plague a scare word?  Yes, in places where there is no treatment, little or no concern, no resources available to meet
the needs of the afflicted-yes, it is a plague.
The closed communities present a virulent breeding ground
for Covid 19, when there are no preventive measures or treatment it becomes a plague.
As long as these condition exist, it will spread to the greater society.
Em uses 'predatory', describing the virus to our age group it is a plague. 

(The stats  on Goggle are vastly understated, by design or by unconcerned personnel.)


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## C'est Moi (May 12, 2020)

rgp said:


> We cannot keep this collective "cowering" up for too long.....the country will collapse financially .


That scares me much more than the virus.


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## rgp (May 12, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> That scares me much more than the virus.




 Myself as well.


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## jerry old (May 12, 2020)

take your choice hungry or infected.

Those of us  on this site, due to our ages  are prime candidates to become a 'no longer among the living' stat.

The young view the  virus entirely different, but once infected
they unknowingly infect others.
Who does not want to see their children and grandchildren?

2. The feds throwing money to common folk is a drop in the 
bucket compared to the expenditures made to bail out the
banks under Obama in 2008.
 the figures on Goggle run from 700 billion to 4.6 trillion to 16 trillion.  
The actual amount will always remain unknown.

Being scary because your old is a legitimate concern.


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## jerry old (May 12, 2020)

CNN reports: Chinese intend to test all ten million residents of
Wahum-something is up.
No discussing of when testing material made.


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## Robert59 (May 12, 2020)

My local Lowe's store had 900 people in it and real crowed. This took place a day after the state opened up. My bank told me this.


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