# Keep them in your prayers



## squatting dog (Oct 5, 2020)

Agent Orange. The killer enemy we never knew about at the time.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 5, 2020)

Prayers to all whose lives have been forever changed by Agent Orange.

So many horrific deaths, injuries, and birth defects to the troops and civilians.

https://www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/agent-orange-1


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## RadishRose (Oct 5, 2020)




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## win231 (Oct 5, 2020)

We knew.  _*We just didn't care.* _Why sugarcoat the truth?

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK236351/


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## 911 (Oct 5, 2020)

I wasn't around that stuff during spraying, but I saw the effects of it and I thought to myself if that stuff can destroy a forest of trees, just think what it can do to a person's insides.


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## Sassycakes (Oct 5, 2020)

*I have a great deal of respect for our Veterans. They are always in my prayers.*


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## win231 (Oct 5, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *I have a great deal of respect for our Veterans. They are always in my prayers.*


You have more respect for our Veterans than our government.  The people in charge consider our Veterans disposable.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Agent Orange. The killer enemy we never knew about at the time.
> 
> View attachment 126269



This is spooky.  My wife is on the phone with the VA right now setting up an appointment for me because of some of those complications.  Who knew?  October and here I am lining up for some medical care.  

Tony


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## 911 (Oct 5, 2020)

The only issue that has concerned me is that because there is no test for agent orange, how many, if any, of the Veterans who have come down with cancer and claim it was from agent orange, was it?

Before anyone starts telling me that I’m a conspiracist, I know of 1 and 1 only veteran that did have and died from lung cancer, who never was affected by agent orange. How do I know? Well, according to him, he told me that he was never in an area where they used agent orange, but when he was diagnosed with lung cancer, he applied for it anyway and was included in the program.


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## fmdog44 (Oct 5, 2020)

And the people of Viet Nam suffering still from birth defects and cancer? What about them?


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

My understanding, as I was informed by the VA is that they have a list of maladies that they have positively associated with Agent Orange, that if you show those symptoms, it will be assumed that they resulted from Agent Orange exposure if you were in those areas in Vietnam.  You don't claim it resulted from Agent Orange.  If your malady is on the list, it is automatically assumed and treated as such.

Further, there are a myriad of possible complications resulting from exposure to Agent Orange, but there is no specific test for Agent Orange present in your system.  If you start showing certain symptoms such as respiratory issues, for example, then the VA is all over it because, though they can't be certain it results from Agent Orange, they do know that if it is, it can get serious very quickly.

I am sure there are people who will take advantage of the way this situation works, but there are many who won't, including me.  I am not involved with the VA to get everything I can out of them, and am careful to not mislead them in any way.  Hopefully, there are more like this than not, though I have heard enough tales of people making claims to fraudulently get treatment and/or money they aren't really entitled to.  The VA does have mechanisms in place for reporting these situations, which are punishable by jail time.  So if you do know of such a situation, you can report it to the VA.

Edit: I should add, as per 911's post, that I am not making any kind of claim with the VA on my situation with this respiratory thing (not that you said anything of the sort, but I thought I would add this as an afterthought), but instead am just going as I would for any other non-service-connected treatment.  But the VA, knowing what they do, does take such issues seriously to be sure it isn't that so if it is, the appropriate treatment can be applied and if not, normal treatment for respiratory issues is applied as it would be with any civilian doctor.  When you go to the VA, you can assign them as your primary care, which I did on the advice of the doctor because I do have some service-connected stuff.

Tony


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> And the people of Viet Nam suffering still from birth defects and cancer? What about them?



I don't know, and I don't know if you are asking rhetorically or with a real concern that would spur you to take action on their behalf.  If it is the latter, then I would suggest contacting your Congress person and starting an inquiry and possibly start a thread in this sub-forum to further discuss it to determine other courses of action you could take.  There may well be people here knowledgeable on that.

Tony


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

911 said:


> The only issue that has concerned me is that because there is no test for agent orange, how many, if any, of the Veterans who have come down with cancer and claim it was from agent orange, was it?
> 
> Before anyone starts telling me that I’m a conspiracist, I know of 1 and 1 only veteran that did have and died from lung cancer, who never was affected by agent orange. How do I know? Well, according to him, he told me that he was never in an area where they used agent orange, but when he was diagnosed with lung cancer, he applied for it anyway and was included in the program.


Despite being at Ft McClellan Alabama for 4 months the VA refuses my claim for agent orange.  They said if I could provide the connection of exposure I would get benefits.  I believe I did supply the connection, where I was, where they sprayed.  Frustrating.

Plus it was manufactured outside the base in Anniston. But, while closed for years, Ft McClellan is not a super site.  So unfair to all the woman vets who went through McClellan and have issues.


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## squatting dog (Oct 5, 2020)

Here's what I got from the VA. I guess the list allows some to claim agent orange damage while never being exposed to it.  
Forgive the green check marks. they were what I had to report has happened at some time over the last 50 years. Some may or may not be related to my exposure. Our area of operations (III corps) was listed as the heaviest concentration of agent orange spraying.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Here's what I got from the VA. I guess the list allows some to claim agent orange damage while never being exposed to it.
> Forgive the green check marks. they were what I had to report has happened at some time over the last 50 years. Some may or may not be related to my exposure. Our area of operations (III corps) was listed as the heaviest concentration of agent orange spraying.
> 
> View attachment 126373View attachment 126374



Interesting and thanks for posting these.  I have not seen the map before, but assume the shaded areas were those you are referring to.  I operated right in largest two, as well as the area between these.  I do not have the list, but have seen it at the VA.  My doctor has it.

Tony


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## squatting dog (Oct 5, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> Interesting and thanks for posting these.  I have not seen the map before, but assume the shaded areas were those you are referring to.  I operated right in largest two, as well as the area between these.  I do not have the list, but have seen it at the VA.  My doctor has it.
> 
> Tony


Yes, the shaded areas are war zone's C and D and the upper one is military region 10 which took in some of Cambodia. Those zones wwere where the heaviest defoliation was used, although most of II corps was sprayed at one time or another.
Welcome home brother.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Yes, the shaded areas are war zone's C and D and the upper one is military region 10 which took in some of Cambodia. Those zones wwere where the heaviest defoliation was used, although most of II corps was sprayed at one time or another.
> Welcome home brother.



Thanks Welcome back to you too.  I really appreciate your posting that map.  It explains a lot.

Tony


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## squatting dog (Oct 5, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> Thanks Welcome back to you too.  I really appreciate your posting that map.  It explains a lot.
> 
> Tony



Hey, here's a link you might find useful. Lots of good info here. 

http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Hey, here's a link you might find useful. Lots of good info here.
> 
> http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html



Thanks!  Lots of stuff to look over and learn.  My experience was getting dumped in the middle of it at 18 years old and not knowing which end was up.  I try to keep it in the past for the most part, but some of this information may help me understand some of the things I am experiencing now.  It seems that you have a pretty good handle on your own situation, which is a really good thing.

Tony


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2020)

Our boys were at Nui Dat. I can't see that on the map but I am presuming that it it is near Long Khanh (Long Tan?)


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## tbeltrans (Oct 5, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Our boys were at Nui Dat. I can't see that on the map but I am presuming that it it is near Long Khanh (Long Tan?)



Here is a link that will show you maps and some description of the area:

https://battleoflongtan.com/maps-battle-long-tan-nui-dat/

It was south of where I was, bordering on the provinces I was in, so I am not familiar with it.  I did run into a fair number of Australians though, but don't remember them mentioning Nui Dat.

Tony


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## dobielvr (Oct 5, 2020)

There was this guy...kinda weird...that i used to work with way back when, like almost 35 yrs ago, and his skin was tinted orange.  From the Agent Orange.  He walked around with a pocket knife attached to his jeans belt loop.  Loner, none of us girls would go near him.  His hair may have been orange too...he always wore a cap.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 6, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Here's what I got from the VA. I guess the list allows some to claim agent orange damage while never being exposed to it.
> Forgive the green check marks. they were what I had to report has happened at some time over the last 50 years. Some may or may not be related to my exposure. Our area of operations (III corps) was listed as the heaviest concentration of agent orange spraying.
> 
> View attachment 126373View attachment 126374


There is an updated list on line as well.  Agent orange exposure was everywhere in Vietnam and if you left a plane in Vietnam, your boots touched the ground in Vietnam, then you immediately got back on a plane to elsewhere.  You still get benefits.

Plus the blue water vets get benefits as well.  If they were on a ship, off the coast of Vietnam-benefits.  I can’t remember all the vets Stationed at places in the states who get be benefits due to agent orange but the list is on line.

Civilians in and around Anniston, AL, got settlements for exposure as well.  As I previous said, Ft McClellan vets, no benefits.  The VA admits I have many of the associated diseases associated with agent orange but say I have not proved the exposure point.


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## squatting dog (Oct 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> There is an updated list on line as well.  Agent orange exposure was everywhere in Vietnam and if you left a plane in Vietnam, your boots touched the ground in Vietnam, then you immediately got back on a plane to elsewhere.  You still get benefits.
> 
> Plus the blue water vets get benefits as well.  If they were on a ship, off the coast of Vietnam-benefits.  I can’t remember all the vets Stationed at places in the states who get be benefits due to agent orange but the list is on line.
> 
> Civilians in and around Anniston, AL, got settlements for exposure as well.  As I previous said, Ft McClellan vets, no benefits.  The VA admits I have many of the associated diseases associated with agent orange but say I have not proved the exposure point.



 It took them quite a while to even acknowledge the effects on our ground troops, and longer yet for the blue water vets. Let's hope they catch up to the Ft McClellan one's now.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> There is an updated list on line as well.  Agent orange exposure was everywhere in Vietnam and if you left a plane in Vietnam, your boots touched the ground in Vietnam, then you immediately got back on a plane to elsewhere.  You still get benefits.
> 
> Plus the blue water vets get benefits as well.  If they were on a ship, off the coast of Vietnam-benefits.  I can’t remember all the vets Stationed at places in the states who get be benefits due to agent orange but the list is on line.
> 
> Civilians in and around Anniston, AL, got settlements for exposure as well.  As I previous said, Ft McClellan vets, no benefits.  The VA admits I have many of the associated diseases associated with agent orange but say I have not proved the exposure point.



My current understanding is that the VA has a system of "priorities", in which what you copay and what services you get are based on ratings for service-connected disabilities.  I am not sure I understand it all, so what I say may not be entirely accurate on this.  Congress can decide to cut the number of vets getting medical care through the VA.  The lowest priority are those who have no service-connected disabilities, and they would be cut first.  They also pay the most copay and for the most services provided.  The next priority level is again those without service connected disabilities, but who have been determined to have financial hardship, based on income and where they live.  All the remaining priorities are based on percentage of service-connected disability.  This is how it was explained to me, so if others here have other information, please do correct what I said here.

Based on that, as far as I know, all veterans can be eligible for medical care at the VA, though I am again not fully clear on this because I do know of some who have been denied, and whether coincidentally or not, were nowhere near any combat zone.

I am sure that the VA provides guidance to the people who determine eligibility, which is something we have to go through before we get to avail ourselves of the VA's medical services.

Tony


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## fmdog44 (Oct 6, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> I don't know, and I don't know if you are asking rhetorically or with a real concern that would spur you to take action on their behalf.  If it is the latter, then I would suggest contacting your Congress person and starting an inquiry and possibly start a thread in this sub-forum to further discuss it to determine other courses of action you could take.  There may well be people here knowledgeable on that.
> 
> Tony


It's a simple fact that America stepped in it's own dung and continues to pay the price for it. Since the AO was deployed on parts of SE Asia by American forces America is responsible for all of the after effects both here an there.


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## 911 (Oct 6, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> And the people of Viet Nam suffering still from birth defects and cancer? What about them?


I don't know if this is true and if it is to what extent has it gone for some, but some of the people in Japan are still affected by the dropping of the 2 bombs.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 6, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> It's a simple fact that America stepped in it's own dung and continues to pay the price for it. Since the AO was deployed on parts of SE Asia by American forces America is responsible for all of the after effects both here an there.



That doesn't answer the post you quoted though.

Tony


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## Irwin (Oct 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> You have more respect for our Veterans than our government.  The people in charge consider our Veterans disposable.



Yep, remember the "we go to war with the army we have -- not the army we want" insults coming out of government while they were lying us into war? And then soldiers weren't provided the armor they needed.


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## win231 (Oct 6, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> It took them quite a while to even acknowledge the effects on our ground troops, and longer yet for the blue water vets. Let's hope they catch up to the Ft McClellan one's now.





Irwin said:


> Yep, remember the "we go to war with the army we have -- not the army we want" insults coming out of government while they were lying us into war? And then soldiers weren't provided the armor they needed.


I also recall Iraq Vets coming down with all sorts of serious illnesses when they got home.  They called it "Gulf War Syndrome."
Some higher-ups in the military said "Why are they complaining about being sick?  When they joined, they knew they could be killed."


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## Irwin (Oct 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> I also recall Iraq Vets coming down with all sorts of serious illnesses when they got home.  They called it "Gulf War Syndrome."
> Some higher-ups in the military said "Why are they complaining about being sick?  When they joined, they knew they could be killed."



I think they just assumed that if they were killed, it would be by an enemy -- not their own government.


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## win231 (Oct 6, 2020)

Coincidentally, I just watched "Coming Home" last night.  I've seen bits & pieces of it before, but I ordered the DVD & was able to watch the unedited version.
My biggest surprise was when I first watched a non-fiction movie - "Born on the 4th of July."  The marine - Ron Kovic (played by Tom Cruise) was heavily involved in the making of the film to make sure it was factual & detailed.  What an eye opener about our government.


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## Tish (Oct 6, 2020)

Prayers


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 7, 2020)

911 said:


> I wasn't around that stuff during spraying, but I saw the effects of it and I thought to myself if that stuff can destroy a forest of trees, just think what it can do to a person's insides.


Duh. As 911 states, this stuff rots  livings forests, but somehow it doesn't have any effect on humans. It's kind of like saying rat poison works on rats, but is perfectly safe for people? In a war, it's easy to use an untried methods of killing the other guy, without full knowledge of the consequences. I'm reminded of the GIs , who were ordered to watch atomic blasts in the 50s, and who, then, came down with cancer.
And as to the VA, it depends on when you served, what laws were in effect at that time, what superseding laws changed all that, the VA's budget, the commitment of Congress, etc., etc. To figure out the "VA' system, you need three lawyers, 4 doctors, an accountant, two historians, 18 witnesses,  some dice and a Ouija board.


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## win231 (Oct 7, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Duh. As 911 states, this stuff rots  livings forests, but somehow it doesn't have any effect on humans. It's kind of like saying rat poison works on rats, but is perfectly safe for people? In a war, it's easy to use an untried methods of killing the other guy, without full knowledge of the consequences. I'm reminded of the GIs , who were ordered to watch atomic blasts in the 50s, and who, then, came down with cancer.
> And as to the VA, it depends on when you served, what laws were in effect at that time, what superseding laws changed all that, the VA's budget, the commitment of Congress, etc., etc. To figure out the "VA' system, you need three lawyers, 4 doctors, an accountant, two historians, 18 witnesses,  some dice and a Ouija board.


Similar B.S. here several years ago.  They claimed we had a problem with Fruit Flies & they did aerial spraying of neighborhoods.
When people expressed concern about their health, they told us the spray is harmless to people.
Then they added, "The spray eats the paint off cars, so keep them covered.  And stay indoors."


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 13, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> My current understanding is that the VA has a system of "priorities", in which what you copay and what services you get are based on ratings for service-connected disabilities.  I am not sure I understand it all, so what I say may not be entirely accurate on this.  Congress can decide to cut the number of vets getting medical care through the VA.  The lowest priority are those who have no service-connected disabilities, and they would be cut first.  They also pay the most copay and for the most services provided.  The next priority level is again those without service connected disabilities, but who have been determined to have financial hardship, based on income and where they live.  All the remaining priorities are based on percentage of service-connected disability.  This is how it was explained to me, so if others here have other information, please do correct what I said here.
> 
> Based on that, as far as I know, all veterans can be eligible for medical care at the VA, though I am again not fully clear on this because I do know of some who have been denied, and whether coincidentally or not, were nowhere near any combat zone.
> 
> ...


I was not eligible for care at the VA due to husbands income.  This may have changed since I applIED over 10 years plus ago as our income went down and prices went up.  But it is not needed now since I have private insurance through his work and medicaid.

But, when I applied, we were low income, but not low enough.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 13, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Duh. As 911 states, this stuff rots  livings forests, but somehow it doesn't have any effect on humans. It's kind of like saying rat poison works on rats, but is perfectly safe for people? In a war, it's easy to use an untried methods of killing the other guy, without full knowledge of the consequences. I'm reminded of the GIs , who were ordered to watch atomic blasts in the 50s, and who, then, came down with cancer.
> And as to the VA, it depends on when you served, what laws were in effect at that time, what superseding laws changed all that, the VA's budget, the commitment of Congress, etc., etc. To figure out the "VA' system, you need three lawyers, 4 doctors, an accountant, two historians, 18 witnesses,  some dice and a Ouija board.


Exactly, they sprayed at Fort McClellan.  We had marched up to an area that had been sprayed, set up our “tents” and got in them.  We were being graded on how fast we could do it.  Then a civilian truck appeared, the worker and our LT got into a discussion we broke the “tents“ down, and marched back to the barracks.

I believe that’s when my direct exposure to agent orange occurred, along with walkIng around base, to town, etc.


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## tbeltrans (Oct 13, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I was not eligible for care at the VA due to husbands income.  This may have changed since I applIED over 10 years plus ago as our income went down and prices went up.  But it is not needed now since I have private insurance through his work and medicaid.
> 
> But, when I applied, we were low income, but not low enough.



I think (but could be wrong) that the VA has changed their means of qualifying veterans and possibly family members for medical care at least once since your experience, so none of what I am about to say should be considered a correction to your post, but instead simply more current information.  I have a younger brother who had a medical retirement from the Marines after 27 years.  He has 100% disability as the result of injuries sustained in Iraq.  He has a wife and children.  Though he has full medical care from the VA, his family does not.  They have insurance through the military, but I am not familiar with how that works and don't recall what it is called.  I have less than 100% service-connected disability, and therefore only pay the very small co-pay for prescribed medicine.  When I get a shot at the VA or am administered other medicine while in the hospital there, I don't get charged for that.

My understanding, as it was explained to me when I went through the process of applying to the VA Medial Center (about 5 years ago), is that level of income determines how much the veteran co-pays for medical services.  This is only at issue if the veteran does not have any service-connected disabilities recognized by the VA.  As explained to me, there are two categories of co-pay for those who don't have service-connected disabilities.  The only difference is how much the co-pay for services will be, which in either case (to me) is a real bargain compared to civilian medical costs.  When you do qualify for service-connected disabilities, then, the percentage for disability determines whether you have a co-pay for medicine or not.  Also, those with 100% disability also get dental care.  Also, a surprise to me, is that it took some time to get qualified for service-connected disability, so during that time, I was paying the standard co-pays, which then were completely refunded when my disability classification came through!

Anybody feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding, outright wrong, or if the VA has changed any of these policies again. These VA benefit discussions and information can get rather murky.  

Tony


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## Pepper (Oct 13, 2020)

win231 said:


> Similar B.S. here several years ago.  They claimed we had a problem with Fruit Flies & they did aerial spraying of neighborhoods.
> When people expressed concern about their health, they told us the spray is harmless to people.
> Then they added, "The spray eats the paint off cars, so keep them covered.  And stay indoors."


Yes, yes.  In 1980 I was living in Wisconsin.  My son was an infant.  We went to a local park with friends.  The grass was perfect.  No bugs, flying or crawling anywhere in this manicured park.  I asked our friends how this is possible and they told us Agent Orange was used as a bug repellent.  I asked a Park person was this true, and he said 'Yes.'  My husband & I had our newborn on a blanket on that grass!  We left immediately.


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