# Maomao and Yulin Dog Meat Festival



## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

November 25th, 2016 is the beginning of a memorial day to a dog called Maomao who used to live in China.  I hope that all the dog lovers here will be motivated to begin putting their names to any petitions that you see, to the Chinese government, to begin protecting dogs and cats specifically and to enacting some actual animal protection laws in that country.

Maomao was a Golden Retriever who was stolen from her family and sold to a restaurant.  Only a few hours later, her screams drew a crowd to that place where she was slowly dying.  In the interest of not being horrifically graphic, I'll spare you the full description of how her last hour went but suffice it to say that I cannot get it out of my head and my heart is breaking at the thought of her suffering.

Yulin has a dog meat festival every year and both cats and dogs are literally tortured to death.  But Chinese animal rights activists, with the support of people all over the world, have been putting enough pressure on the government that they have finally agreed to a first step, banning the slaughter of these hapless creatures in public.  

Marc Ching, who lives in California and operates the Animal Hope and Wellness Centre has also made 7 trips to Asian countries, posing as a dog meat buyer and has seen and documented the torture that is done and has even had an opportunity to speak to one or more of your members of Congress with a view to hopefully get your government to also help pressure that government.   He has also used the money he has raised to buy out several dog meat farmers and helped them set up non-animal businesses and then he has bulldozed the farms that he bought after rescuing the dogs and cats imprisoned there.  Support him and all the others with your love and prayers.   http://www.animalhopeandwellness.org

Maomaos Movement is one group who have begun rescuing dogs from the illegal dog thieves and traders and rehoming many of them in Canada and in the United States.  So I'm not asking any of you to donate, just sign petitions if you see them.  The dogs and cats depend on our love and compassion.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 24, 2016)

I have been putting my name on this petition for years now.  Thank you for sharing that.


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## fureverywhere (Nov 24, 2016)

It does make your heart break. Then again in "civilized" countries pigs are routinely killed for meat every day. I've read that pigs can be equal if not more intelligent than the average dog. They'll try to socialize with the slaughterhouse workers if given the opportunity. But we sell bull manhood and pig snouts by the bag for our companion animals.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I find it appalling what China does to animals, but America isn't much better. An excellent book on the topic is " Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat" by Hal Herzog.


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## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

Thank you both for caring.  At least in much of the world, there's a pretence at caring about their suffering but in China, not at all.  Marc rescued one little dog who'd been boiled alive and had all her hair pulled out by an awful machine, but the vet he took her too euthanized her because she was scalded over her entire body and simply could not have survived.  At least she had a few moments in her dying hours where she was surrounded by loving people.

The other thing too, is I have heard that Australia has been talking about exporting dingo's to China for the dog meat trade and Ireland currently allows the export of greyhounds from their racetracks and those dogs are abused and tortured as well.  So any petitions against exporting dingo's or any to the government of Ireland to end dogs being sent to China, please sign them!

I get Marc Chings foundation notices on my FB feed and to be honest, I can't imagine how he and the other folks go on day after day with the things that they've seen.   I've lost hope in humanity pretty much and waffle back and forth between fearing a nuclear war/devastating astroid strike and wishing it would come and end this all.  We need a reset big time.


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## Shalimar (Nov 24, 2016)

Hmmm. Although I abhor this practice, I think that it might be a tad insensitive to bring it to people's attention on American Thanksgiving Day.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 24, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. Although I abhor this practice, I think that it might be a tad insensitive to bring it to people's attention on American Thanksgiving Day.


Well, thank you for caring Shali but it didn't bother me.  I have cared about these poor dogs all along and today, too.


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## fureverywhere (Nov 24, 2016)

A different culture entirely. I remember the first time my daughter showed daughter in law her pet rats. In stilted English she explained that in her country rat can be food...especially chubby ones. Tarantulas too.


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## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. Although I abhor this practice, I think that it might be a tad insensitive to bring it to people's attention on American Thanksgiving Day.




When is a plea for compassion ever insensitive?   Besides, I didn't start this Memorial day, it was the AR group who are there in China I believe, and the date they chose is November 25th so I ran with it and led with my heart.  My apologies to any who might have been offended, that was not my intention at all.


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## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> A different culture entirely. I remember the first time my daughter showed daughter in law her pet rats. In stilted English she explained that in her country rat can be food...especially chubby ones. Tarantulas too.




Yes, you're right, the culture is certainly different.  I know there are some who might point to that and argue that it means that everyone else should mind their own business, but I figure it's sort of like that saying 'Your rights end where my face begins' or something along those lines.  In this case (in my opinion) 'culture' goes right out the window when it comes to cruelty.  Think of the other things that we've learned to not do as we've evolved and now fight and legislate against.  FGM for one, bullfighting, dog fighting.........


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## Kitties (Nov 24, 2016)

I think Thanksgiving day is a good time to bring up a subject like this.

Animal suffering goes on all year round. And so unnecessary. I'm at a loss as to what I can do.


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## IKE (Nov 24, 2016)

During my close to six year stay in Vietnam (Feb. 1969 through Oct. 1974) at one time I picked up a stray solid black pup and brought him home and had him for aprox. 3 years......he was about the size of a Aussie Shepard and a extremely good watch dog and very smart but he didn't care for being kept inside at night and preferred instead to sleep outside on the front stoop.

Late one night the gal I was with heard the dog barking like hell and then abruptly stop, I grabbed a gun and we both got up and opened the door and saw two Vietnamese teens running away and the dog, still on the front stoop, already had his muzzle and two of his feet tied.......we returned to bed and she explained to me that the Vietnamese that ate dog (not all do) for some reason preferred a black dog over any other color and she was sure that the two teens were going to steal and sell the dog for food.

All was well for for about another two or three months and one morning when we got up the dog was gone.......I put the word out in the village that I'd give a reward for the dogs return but never saw it again.

We were certain that we knew the dogs fate.


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## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

Kitties said:


> I think Thanksgiving day is a good time to bring up a subject like this.
> 
> Animal suffering goes on all year round. And so unnecessary. I'm at a loss as to what I can do.




If you ever see petitions online, sign them.  It does make a difference.  Here's an example, there's a polar bear named Pizza (stupid name eh?) that has been living in a 600 square foot room in a shopping mall for three years.  Because more people are doing online shopping, the owners decided to bring the bear in as an attraction to get people back in, but it's totally unsuitable for her, no outdoors, no sunshine, just a glass wall on one side, some ice thrown in across the floor and fluorescent lighting.  Horrible place.  And so many people have signed petitions all across the world and so many in China that the owners have agreed to let her go back to the breeding farm (which probably is only slightly better but at least she'll have her mother and father there).  The hope is that they will let her stay there forever.  So petitions have an affect these days.  

And then there's the example of Seaward finally throwing in the towel on breeding orca's and making them do tricks.  That's the result of that movie 'Blackfish' and petitions 'coming out the wazoo' and people becoming aware....now if they'll only let the group that has offered to build sea pens for the orca to retire in, get to work and give them a retirement home!  Fingers crossed and where do I sign?

Anyway, even signatures help so thank you for caring Kitties.


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## Debby (Nov 24, 2016)

IKE said:


> During my close to six year stay in Vietnam (Feb. 1969 through Oct. 1974) at one time I picked up a stray solid black pup and brought him home and had him for aprox. 3 years......he was about the size of a Aussie Shepard and a extremely good watch dog and very smart but he didn't care for being kept inside at night and preferred instead to sleep outside on the front stoop.
> 
> Late one night the gal I was with heard the dog barking like hell and then abruptly stop, I grabbed a gun and we both got up and opened the door and saw two Vietnamese teens running away and the dog, still on the front stoop, already had his muzzle and two of his feet tied.......we returned to bed and she explained to me that the Vietnamese that ate dog (not all do) for some reason preferred a black dog over any other color and she was sure that the two teens were going to steal and sell the dog for food.
> 
> ...




Yes, poor dog, dog theft is very common in all of the Asian countries apparently.  Many of the images that I've seen of the dogs stuffed into the cages, are wearing collars so before that, someone loved them.


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## Falcon (Nov 24, 2016)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. Although I abhor this practice, I think that it might be a tad insensitive to bring it to people's attention on American Thanksgiving Day.



BOY. Am I with you on this, Shali.

I had to go back to see who started this horrible thread.


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## fureverywhere (Nov 24, 2016)

It is an important subject. I have been on Planet Dog for ten years and I would be the first to howl seeing canine abuse. That being said I have a container of leftover salmon, Mac n cheese and beef scraps. All the poor neglected dogs in world and our pups eat better than many humans.


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## Cookie (Nov 24, 2016)

I too find this horribly upsetting, but since we're on the subject what about all the other poor animals that are tortured and slaughtered every day --- look at the meat in your fridges and freezers --- cows and piggies and sheeps?  A tad hyprocritical to think all animals don't deserve better.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 24, 2016)

Cookie said:


> I too find this horribly upsetting, but since we're on the subject what about all the other poor animals that are tortured and slaughtered every day --- look at the meat in your fridges and freezers --- cows and piggies and sheeps?  A tad hyprocritical to think all animals don't deserve better.


Yes, I agree.


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## fureverywhere (Nov 24, 2016)

I agree as well, calling dead cow "beef" and dead pig "pork", slaughtered chicken and other birds "poultry"...doesn't make it right.


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## BlondieBoomer (Nov 24, 2016)

Cookie said:


> I too find this horribly upsetting, but since we're on the subject what about all the other poor animals that are tortured and slaughtered every day --- look at the meat in your fridges and freezers --- cows and piggies and sheeps?  A tad hyprocritical to think all animals don't deserve better.



I agree.


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## Debby (Nov 25, 2016)

Falcon said:


> BOY. Am I with you on this, Shali.
> 
> I had to go back to see who started this horrible thread.




So why did you click on it?


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 26, 2016)

I am someone who is involved (albeit to a small extent), in raising animals to be slaughtered for meat.  I get really sick when people go 'oooh' and 'ahhhh' at cute little puppies and kittens and call them 'their babies''  etc....  but yet do seem to grasp the concern , hard work and passion that many farmers and breeders put into their work.   This is their livelihood , not some fashion statement.  It is a hard, 24/7, 365 days a year job and for any decent farmer worth their salt, the welfare of their stock is their primary concern.

Now, let's get this straight, I utterly condemn cruelty to animals , though I don't always jump in feet first and take these emotive reports at face value.  The animals I help to raise get the best welfare that we can provide, but we understand very well where they are going to end up.

Right, that's my little rant.  If anyone objects to eating meat, then that's fine.  For those of us who do enjoy a good steak etc..  then insist that your meat comes from a recognised source and has been raised to a high standard of welfare.  It'll taste a lot better too.


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## Debby (Nov 26, 2016)

I would only ask what kind of death do those animals (who are raised 'well') have?  Do they slip quietly into that great night or are they terrified and fearful and hurting?  

And that's the last question and statement I'm going to post on this thread.  My intention was only to encourage folks who might see petitions to help the dogs in China, to not dismiss them as useless but to sign them because they do good eventually.  And Falcon and Shalimar, if you think that my being moved by love and grief to start this thread for that purpose is a horrible thing then, well,  I have no idea what to say to you.


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 26, 2016)

I too will just make a couple of final points on this...
Firstly, let me re-iterate that I am sceptical about this type of second-hand report that deliberately uses highly emotive language to try to stir up support.  
Secondly, I am not one for 'anthropomorphism'.  How do you or I know what an animal "thinks"? I can only say that in the UK, they are dispatched quickly and humanely.     

Perhaps we've been watching too many films like "Babe" or "Charlotte's Web".


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## Cookie (Nov 26, 2016)

We don't know what an animal 'thinks' but we do know that they do think and have intelligence and brains, emotions, just like people.  Studies have been done and results have found that dogs and pigs are extremely intelligent.  That said, why don't we like to eat other humans, particularly little children?  Don't you think they would be tender meat and very tasty?  But lets put them to work first, maybe doing farm work or picking fruit. And god forbid we treat them with love and kindness.


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## IKE (Nov 26, 2016)

Whoa !.......how'd we get from some countries consuming canines then to eating animals that are actually bred for human consumption and then taking one hell of a giant leap to eating children ?

I guess I must have missed a page or two.


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## Cookie (Nov 26, 2016)

Animals bred for human consumption world over are treated inhumanely and live in horribly cruel circumstances -  it all depends on your level of awareness and point of view whether you have the opinion that animals are strictly for human consumption so we can eat them and abuse them.  In Indonesia they believe its OK to eat dogs, here no. And of course we are not cannibals, but many people consider their pets and animals friends and family and more than just for human consumption and as work slaves and believe them to be worthy of love and respect and special care, in the same way friends and family are. *

Definition from Wiki:  Anthropomorphism* is the attribution of human traits, emotions, and intentions to non-human entities[SUP][1][/SUP] and is considered to be an innate tendency of human psychology.


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## Debby (Nov 26, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> I too will just make a couple of final points on this...
> Firstly, let me re-iterate that I am sceptical about this type of second-hand report that deliberately uses highly emotive language to try to stir up support.
> Secondly, I am not one for 'anthropomorphism'.  How do you or I know what an animal "thinks"? I can only say that in the UK, they are dispatched quickly and humanely.
> 
> Perhaps we've been watching too many films like "Babe" or "Charlotte's Web".




Sorry, I can't resist.  Maybe you haven't been getting updates from the same AR groups that I have.  Most countries have 'rules' in place, but the truth is that those rules are frequently ignored for the sake of expediency and the bottom line.  Even the Guardian has aired a video of what transpires in British slaughterhouses along with commentary from the group that took the footage.  The people who work in slaughterhouses are overworked, often untrained in the 'niceties' of animal treatment or they simply do not care.  And the animals suffer because of it.  As they say, seeing is believing.


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## Debby (Nov 26, 2016)

IKE said:


> Whoa !.......how'd we get from some countries consuming canines then to eating animals that are actually bred for human consumption and then taking one hell of a giant leap to eating children ?
> 
> I guess I must have missed a page or two.




It's an easy leap from dogs to other animals.  They all feel pain and fear and suffer and die.

(and that is my last word).........


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 26, 2016)

IKE said:


> Whoa !.......how'd we get from some countries consuming canines then to eating animals that are actually bred for human consumption and then taking one hell of a giant leap to eating children ?
> 
> I guess I must have missed a page or two.



No Ike, throwing in the eating children bait is just more _dramatic_.      I'm an animal lover and in no way condone the eating of dogs in any country, but I know enough to realize that traditions in other areas of the world are much different than those in western societies.  I'm glad to know that this practice is less popular than it used to be in those countries.

I don't support any abusive treatment of any animals who are raised and slaughtered for food in the USA.  There are ranchers who care for their animals very well, give them a good and healthy life, and use the most humane treatment when it comes to preparing them for market. 

I still choose to eat beef, pork, chicken, etc. like many other people in many countries.  My niece is a vegetarian, and I respect the woman for not judging others who don't agree with her personal choices, and accepting that not everyone is going to agree with what she has chosen to consume.  She has not made anyone feel 'less than' just because they want to enjoy some turkey or beef at a holiday meal. Those who hold her values and treatment of others, are more likely to persuade people to join her in her eating lifestyle.  I'm proud of her, never intolerant.


I do find that posting something like this on Thanksgiving day is less than considerate, and maybe was not meant to be offending.  But I can imagine that to some vegans/vegetarians, it might even bring titillation on a holiday like this.  

I'd like to see the dog consumption end, and I admire those in those countries who are actively trying to rescue these dogs and adopt them out as an alternative.


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## Cookie (Nov 26, 2016)

Sorry some found my reference to eating children as titilating it or a dramatic bait. That was not my intention, just making a discussion point, which seems to have been grossly misunderstood.  When it comes to food choices its all a matter of personal principle and choice, and we do have lots to choose from living in an abundant society where everything is readily available. Its always risky talking about meat and killing animals, no one wants to think about it, let alone talk about it.  People just want their meat and don't want anyone making them feel they are doing anything wrong, especially on turkey day.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 26, 2016)

cookie said:


> sorry some found my reference to eating children as titilating it or a dramatic bait. That was not my intention, just making a discussion point, which seems to have been grossly misunderstood.  When it comes to food choices its all a matter of personal principle and choice, and we do have lots to choose from living in an abundant society where everything is readily available. Its always risky talking about meat and killing animals, no one wants to think about it, let alone talk about it.  People just want their meat and don't want anyone making them feel they are doing anything wrong, especially on turkey day.


ikwym


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## Debby (Nov 27, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> No Ike, throwing in the eating children bait is just more _dramatic_.      I'm an animal lover and in no way condone the eating of dogs in any country, but I know enough to realize that traditions in other areas of the world are much different than those in western societies.  I'm glad to know that this practice is less popular than it used to be in those countries.
> 
> I don't support any abusive treatment of any animals who are raised and slaughtered for food in the USA.  There are ranchers who care for their animals very well, give them a good and healthy life, and use the most humane treatment when it comes to preparing them for market.
> 
> ...




Titillating??? Seriously, you think I intended to 'titillate' folks here?  Well forgive me for caring and for responding impulsively to that groups decision to declare a day of memorial.   

Seems like caring is risky no matter where you are.  I'll try and stick to safe stuff like 'who went shopping on Black Friday' in the future.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Debby said:


> It's an easy leap from dogs to other animals.  They all feel pain and fear and suffer and die.
> 
> (and that is my last word).........



Somehow Debby, I knew it wouldn't be your last word. 



Debby said:


> Titillating??? Seriously, you think I intended to 'titillate' folks here?



Interesting how you took _that _comment personally, this other one wasn't a better fit?  I was sharing the way I felt about the topic being presented on Thanksgiving day, and perhaps neither of my views were meant to fit you personally, did you ever think of that? 



> I do find that posting something like this on Thanksgiving day is less than considerate, and maybe was not meant to be offending.


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## Debby (Nov 27, 2016)

No I didn't think it wasn't personal and for obvious reasons.  Because I started the thread, because you correlated veg'ns and 'titillation'  and because a couple other folks had the same response and one of them said that he had to go back and see WHO started this horrible thread.....well yes, I took it personally.

So I am sorry that I started it on Thanksgiving weekend.  Perhaps I am insensitive in that regard as we don't celebrate this day like everyone else does.   I failed to take that into account when I posted only responding to a feeling, and now believe me, I am sorry on so many levels.  But this isn't my first time round the block on this issue and my gut feeling is that it wouldn't be well received in any instance as it had the potential to morph into something that wasn't intended initially.  Remember, the initial point was to encourage signatures on petitions to help the dogs and cats because they do work.

I keep hoping for a shift in consciousness in the world and while 'they' say it is slowly happening, I always feel like it isn't happening fast enough but I suppose I have to be willing to slow down and allow the baby steps to come along.  So having said that, I hope that you and yours have a nice day.  I hope that you will enjoy family and laughter and reconnect in love because that is what it's all about really isn't it.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Debby said:


> But this isn't my first time round the block on this issue and my gut feeling is that it wouldn't be well received in any instance as it had the potential to morph into something that wasn't intended initially.  Remember, the initial point was to encourage signatures on petitions to help the dogs and cats because they do work.



Yes Debby, unfortunately it quickly turned into 'meat-shaming' again for those of us who enjoy a steak now and then (or a traditional Thanksgiving turkey dinner), then to cannibalism and eating children.  

This woman has been actively rescuing animals for many years, she's an angel for doing this for these dogs.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7630820.html








A retired school teacher and animal advocate saved the lives of 100 dogs on Saturday after she paid about $1,100 to save them from an annual dog meat festival in the southern Chinese city of Yulin.Yang Xiaoyun, 65, traveled about 1,500 miles from her home in the city of Tianjin to secure the dogs, Agence France-Presse reported.

Yang has been rescuing animals since 1995, when she pulled an abandoned kitten from a river. In 1999, she founded a dog and cat sanctuary known as the "Common Home for All." She has taken in hundreds of animals and has sold her home, relying on rented space to house them, according to a 2013 video about her work.

She prepares meals for the animals and calls them her "children," the India Times reported. Her shelter now houses almost 1,500 dogs and 200 cats.

Yang's selfless act in Yulin comes as international observers and activists continue to draw attention to the city's dog meat festival. Dog meat consumption does have a historical precedent in China, according to Peter Li, a China policy specialist at Humane Society International and associate professor at the University of Houston-Downtown, but the Yulin festival only dates back to 2009.

About 10,000 dogs are killed each year for the Yulin festival, which coincides with the summer solstice. Some of the dogs that arrive in the city have collars, reported the Daily Beast, indicating that they may be stolen pets.

Actor and animal advocate Ricky Gervais condemned the festival and said footage he saw from past years broke his heart. "I will never forget the look of bewilderment and fear on the faces of these poor animals -- the dogs and cats await a horrible fate," he said in a statement. "No animal deserves to be treated like this."

Yang reportedly wants to open another dog sanctuary, in Yulin.


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## Cookie (Nov 27, 2016)

Meat shaming (that's a new one!) cannibalism and eating children?  Seabreeze you have completely missed my whole point or misread, taking what I have said much too literally.  Again I apologize profusely and regret deeply any words and ideas that I have expressed on this forum that may have made anyone feel ashamed of themselves for eating meat.  My humble apologies.  I will never mention it again here on this forum and in the future will be very careful what I say to meat eaters in general, as I can see that can be very upsetting to some. Peace!


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## Cookie (Nov 27, 2016)

I do find myself apologizing for not wanting to eat animals and my animal welfare beliefs, but I have yet to hear a meat eater apologize for their role in killing/hunting/and eating abused animals.  Some say that they are doing it with respect and humanely but in my view they are still just pig killers and deer hunters and in some places dog killers.  That is what they wish to do, not really out of necessity or for economic reasons but because that is what they like and enjoy doing. If you want to call that meat shaming, go right ahead, I'm tired of pussyfooting around the issue and apologizing for caring.


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 27, 2016)

Well, I'm damned if I'm going to apologise for my beliefs.  I eat meat, I have helped to raise animals for meat, I have  hunted,  fished and foraged - always been for eating.   If anyone doesn't like that, hard luck.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 27, 2016)

Another meat eater here and no apologies.

I believe that animals raised for food should be treated humanely and killed in ways that minimize suffering. 

I feel the same about hunting.  I would rather see a hunter take a deer quickly and cleanly with a rifle or bow than see that animal starve or be chased and killed by wild dogs.


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## Cookie (Nov 27, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Well, I'm damned if I'm going to apologise for my beliefs.  I eat meat, I have helped to raise animals for meat, I have  hunted,  fished and foraged - always been for eating.   If anyone doesn't like that, hard luck.



Like I said, people do what they enjoy doing.  But you miss my point, with not a glimmer of understanding.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> Well, I'm damned if I'm going to apologise for my beliefs.  I eat meat, I have helped to raise animals for meat, I have  hunted,  fished and foraged - always been for eating.   If anyone doesn't like that, hard luck.



I have nothing to apologize for either Capt.Lightning, and I enjoyed some delicious barbecued St. Louis style ribs for my Thanksgiving dinner.  Not only do I not abuse animals, but I also try to show some respect and tolerance for those who don't share my views.  As I said, my niece is a lovely lady who chooses to be a vegetarian, and she does so without ridiculing others.  Everyone respects her, you get what you give.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Cookie said:


> If you want to call that meat shaming, go right ahead, I'm tired of pussyfooting around the issue and apologizing for caring.



If you call this pussyfooting Cookie, I'd hate to see you come in on full charge.



> --- look at the meat in your fridges and freezers --- cows and piggies and sheeps? A tad hyprocritical to think all animals don't deserve better.



Suggesting that those of us who enjoy beef, lamb and pork that are raised in healthy conditions, not abused,  and prepared for market in a humane manner are hypocrites because we don't agree with eating domestic animals like dogs and cats?



> That said, why don't we like to eat other humans, particularly little children? Don't you think they would be tender meat and very tasty? But lets put them to work first, maybe doing farm work or picking fruit.



Saying that little children would be tender and tasty, but make them work first before you kill them....pussyfooting sarcasm I guess?



> People just want their meat and don't want anyone making them feel they are doing anything wrong, especially on turkey day.



Nobody's doing anything 'wrong', that's just you're opinion.



> Again I apologize profusely and regret deeply any words and ideas that I have expressed on this forum that may have made anyone feel ashamed of themselves for eating meat.



How many people here who are reading this forum do you think feel 'ashamed' due to anything you've said here?  You give yourself great power, don't you?



> Some say that they are doing it with respect and humanely but in my view they are still just pig killers and deer hunters and in some places dog killers



Again, your view and your opinion.  Most of us in the United States and Canada would not approve of killing and eating domestic animals like dogs and cats.  Nothing wrong with a deer hunter who shoots the deer in a responsible manner and uses the meat for food......been going on since the beginning of time.

I have nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for, as I don't abuse or condone the abuse of animals, and I try to show some respect for those who choose different lifestyles than I do.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Aunt Bea said:


> Another meat eater here and no apologies.
> 
> I believe that animals raised for food should be treated humanely and killed in ways that minimize suffering.
> 
> I feel the same about hunting.  I would rather see a hunter take a deer quickly and cleanly with a rifle or bow than see that animal starve or be chased and killed by wild dogs.



Completely agree with you Aunt Bea.


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## Cookie (Nov 27, 2016)

Well, Seabreeze, I see its no use -- this kind of thing just goes around and around and people get annoyed and some misinterpret what is posted.  I don't think its something that can be argued about or explained.  Everyone feels it in their own heart what they think is right. I think its about empathy, some people have lots, some have a bit, some have none. I could never kill an animal no matter how I rationalize it in my mind (unless it was a matter of life or death).  And I can't condone the meat industry which is all about feeding a lot of people and making a lot of money.  

Of course not many are able to be vegetarian, even if they wanted to. It takes a lot of determination and strength and creativity and it isn't easy. Maybe that's why the young people of today can do it, they have their friends and support and they have the energy and the flexibility.  Old folks not so much, they can only stick to the old ways that have been around for eons, since cave man I guess and lean on tradition and cultural values, if that is their priority.  People eating dogs in some places are essentially doing the same thing people here do -- sticking to traditional ways and values, which we find horrible, but try telling them that.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 27, 2016)

Cookie said:


> I think its about empathy, some people have lots, some have a bit, some have none. I could never kill an animal no matter how I rationalize it in my mind (unless it was a matter of life or death).
> 
> Of course not many are able to be vegetarian, even if they wanted to. It takes a lot of determination and strength and creativity and it isn't easy. Maybe that's why the young people of today can do it, they have their friends and support and they have the energy and the flexibility.  Old folks not so much, they can only stick to the old ways that have been around for eons, since cave man I guess and lean on tradition and cultural values, if that is their priority.



Well, I have to say that I've been very empathetic to both people and animals since I was a child.  I also have never killed an animal personally, but would do so if I needed the food, or if it was threatening my life.  I feel this way about life threat for both human and animal, you threaten to kill me, and I will do everything in my power to stop you.

I've gone for months without eating meat, and I'm in my 60's.  It doesn't take any special "strength" or creativity to do so, just don't buy lamb chops when at the supermarket.  Unless you're really weak-willed, when you want to do something, for whatever reason, you just do it.  

 I don't lean on anything personally, I'm not so weak minded that I mindlessly follow some kind of 'values' set before me by my ancestors.  No big deal to put meat aside if desired, not some caveman instinct overcoming me....or any senior, for that matter.  I don't disrespect older people and praise young ones in these matters.


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## Cookie (Nov 27, 2016)

Seabreeze, all my posts were were not directed at you personally, so you don't have to defend or justify yourself.  And I'm glad to hear that you don't go out and shoot deer. I suppose I am generalizing about people who conform to traditional thinking but that has been my experience and in my experience I have seen that younger people are often more receptive to new ideas. And also in my own personal experience, I find it is not easy being vegetarian permanently, I sometimes find it very challenging to get the protein my body needs, but that's just me.  But I keep it up.

And I suppose it does sound like meat shaming when I talk about bad conditions for the animals, and not liking hearing about how yummy people's meat is and and even worse about how they are in the business of butchering their well cared for and humanely treated pigs. It does not endear me to the meat eating folks, I know.

That is unfortunate, but it can't be helped.  Your niece is clever to be tactful and careful in what she says and in turn earning your respect. But I really can't keep my mouth shut when it comes to the plight of the animals and its too bad for me that it usually gets me absolutely no respect at all, in fact people hate to hearing about it and its not even that I blab about it all the time either. But that's the price I pay to stand up for the animals and their rights. Just trying to get the message across, in whatever way possible, usually without even taking the time and effort to sugar-coat my words, quite often failing miserably but sometimes someone actually hears me.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 27, 2016)

Cookie said:


> I do find myself apologizing for not wanting to eat animals and my animal welfare beliefs, but I have yet to hear a meat eater apologize for their role in killing/hunting/and eating abused animals.  Some say that they are doing it with respect and humanely but in my view they are still just pig killers and deer hunters and in some places dog killers.  That is what they wish to do, not really out of necessity or for economic reasons but because that is what they like and enjoy doing. If you want to call that meat shaming, go right ahead, I'm tired of pussyfooting around the issue and apologizing for caring.



I will say that I eat some meat but not as much as I used to and am not proud of it at all.  I often eat vegetarian meals.  I have a hard time going totally without it and that may sound like I'm an animal killer but I don't see myself as that.  I don't kill them.  I am aware of the suffering of animals and sign lots of petitions.  Maybe I sound like a hipocrate then but I do care.  Maybe I need to care more.  I already know how all this sounds bad about me but it's being honest about where I am at right now.


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## Debby (Nov 28, 2016)

Cookie you are a dear and I understand exactly what you've said in your last comment.  I have many of the same experiences that you've described here and considering that we live in a meat-centric world where you see a never ending flow of meat advertising, dairy advertising, suggested recipes on cooking shows, and it's all presented in such an antiseptic way, it becomes increasingly hurtful.  Add family and friends pressuring, asking questions but not wanting to really get an answer...yes indeed, difficult to live in this world sometimes.  And always theres the accusations about being an angry veg'n, 'pushing our beliefs down the throats of others' when I know most of us say very little......difficult isn't it sometimes?

I'm blessed in that my one daughter has also chosen the same path in life and my husband as well.  Mind you he had to 'come along' because I do the cooking and he doesn't even know where the can opener is kept!  I have him under my control but I've also made a point of learning to cook the best meals!  He's never dissatisfied always happy with the results and because of how I cook he never packed on the pounds the way so many men do by the time they're 65 so it's all good.  (And considering that my cooking when we first got married meant replacing burnt pans monthly!  Yep things have improved!)

As for protein, I just had a blood test done a few months ago and one of the things he tested for was protein levels and they were perfect, iron levels perfect, all perfect.  You mentioned that you find it difficult to be sure to eat enough protein foods, maybe if you want to PM me with an idea of what kinds of foods you eat, perhaps I could give you some ideas on how to be more sure on what you're getting.  

I know one thing that I like to cook is lentils with coconut cream sauce.  I cook the lentils with a soup cube and then when close to done I'll add the coconut, maybe a little bit of leftover spaghetti sauce, some curry spices, pepper, parsley and a tiny bit of 5-spice powder.  And of course it's perfect for adding all sorts of finely chopped veggies and then spoon over top of potatoes or noodles or rice.  I usually make a large pot so that we're having them for several meals or freezing for another day.

I use lentils too that are cooked to be quite soft and then add them to spaghetti sauce and they take the place of hamburger beautifully.  I also find spaghetti sauce a little acidic sometimes to the taste, so I'll often add just a heaping tablespoon of coconut cream to just smooth it a little.

And here's an easy idea, my husband goes to the gym and he'll fuel up before he goes with a slice of toasted whole wheat bread with peanut butter.  Now he likes to top that with bananas but you could use a nice jam.  Toast and peanut butter, healthy protein!  or if you had a cashew nut spread or some other nut spread and voila!

The interesting thing I just learned recently is that you don't need to combine foods specifically to get your protein.  Our bodies are able to sort of warehouse enzymes and then when an appropriate match comes along, the system does it automatically.   Who knows, you might be doing a lot better than you think.  After all everything has protein enzymes in it right.  I mean look elephants get so huge on leaves and grasses.  Must be getting protein somewhere.  Horses, cows, same thing.  I even heard you could conceivable get all the protein you need from blueberries  except you'd have to eat something like 60 cups of blueberries.


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## Debby (Nov 28, 2016)

Ruthanne said:


> I will say that I eat some meat but not as much as I used to and am not proud of it at all.  I often eat vegetarian meals.  I have a hard time going totally without it and that may sound like I'm an animal killer but I don't see myself as that.  I don't kill them.  I am aware of the suffering of animals and sign lots of petitions.  Maybe I sound like a hipocrate then but I do care.  Maybe I need to care more.  I already know how all this sounds bad about me but it's being honest about where I am at right now.




It sounds like you care Ruthanne and you are taking all into account when you eat and you're trying to cut down.  That's big you know, because it's hard to make changes of any sort and especially when the world is going the other way mostly.  Check out the suggestion that I gave Cookie on a great way to use lentils.  

Do you have a food processor?  If you do, you could make a great chick pea salad by throwing chick peas (drain them first), carrot chunks, lettuce or a few clean beet leaves, celery and whatever hard veggies you like, then chop them up til they are fine enough for your preference.  I will squeeze half a lemon in, some salt and pepper and some turmeric to season it as it's chopping.  And then add in some cucumbers that you've chopped smallish by hand, some thawed but raw green peas, and some fine chopped sweet onion and you have a fabulous salad!  I love this recipe and that's one of the things that  I'm making for our supper tonight.  Maybe some of that toast but with a cashew nut/garlic spread that I've made....fabulous.

Aside from the whole aspect of ethics which I'm not going to get into here, there is the effect of the meat/dairy industry on our environment and quite frankly, it's not good which may be why the FAOO released a study in 2006, called Livestocks Long Shadow, that identified that livestock is the cause of 18% of the worlds GHG emissions.  Not only that, but last week I watched a television show about the destruction of 20% of the Amazon rainforest and a further 20% expected loss in the next 20 years,  solely for the purpose of cattle farming.  That rainforest births our weather patterns and the rain that the world needs, so it's a serious issue.  

So anytime you have a veg meal, you are doing it for the world too and that's a good thing.


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## IKE (Nov 28, 2016)

We've been down this carnivore vs vegetarian road several times in the past and I very seriously doubt that either side has switched to the others way of thinking.

I am, always have been and always will be a meat eater and for those who don't enjoy meat that's fine also......different strokes for different folks.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 28, 2016)

Debby said:


> Cookie you are a dear and I understand exactly what you've said in your last comment.  I have many of the same experiences that you've described here and considering that we live in a meat-centric world where you see a never ending flow of meat advertising, dairy advertising, suggested recipes on cooking shows, and it's all presented in such an antiseptic way, it becomes increasingly hurtful.  Add family and friends pressuring, asking questions but not wanting to really get an answer...yes indeed, difficult to live in this world sometimes.  And always theres the accusations about being an angry veg'n, 'pushing our beliefs down the throats of others' when I know most of us say very little......difficult isn't it sometimes?
> 
> I'm blessed in that my one daughter has also chosen the same path in life and my husband as well.  Mind you he had to 'come along' because I do the cooking and he doesn't even know where the can opener is kept!  I have him under my control but I've also made a point of learning to cook the best meals!  He's never dissatisfied always happy with the results and because of how I cook he never packed on the pounds the way so many men do by the time they're 65 so it's all good.  (And considering that my cooking when we first got married meant replacing burnt pans monthly!  Yep things have improved!)
> 
> ...



Great post!

IMO it's always better to teach than preach, thanks for the ideas for using lentils.  If you have any other information to share on vegetarian cooking using everyday supermarket ingredients I would enjoy reading them.

Thanks, B


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## Debby (Nov 28, 2016)

Well Ike, it seems to me that guns have been covered at least a couple times and numerous folks have different offerings in each instance.  And sure, maybe no one here is going to change, that's your right, but that doesn't mean that the science isn't growing to support the other side and I think that folks who have grandchildren that will be growing up in what we leave them, and who might be interested in hearing it from time to time, have the right to hear it.  After all, we know that you aren't going to be bringing that kind of information herelayful: right?


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## Debby (Nov 28, 2016)

Aunt Bea said:


> Great post!
> 
> IMO it's always better to teach than preach, thanks for the ideas for using lentils.  If you have any other information to share on vegetarian cooking using everyday supermarket ingredients I would enjoy reading them.
> 
> Thanks, B




Well thanks Aunt Bea, and maybe I'll start a thread about veg. cooking in the next couple days.  I've been working for weeks on a study about B12 and I'm in the middle of organizing my notes but maybe I'll put that on the back burner for a day or two and give this some thought.  Thank you so much for the good idea.


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## IKE (Nov 28, 2016)

Debby said:


> After all, we know that you aren't going to be bringing that kind of information herelayful: right?



I was picking up on everything that you were laying down till the above.....huh ?


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## Robusta (Nov 28, 2016)

I was going to stay out of this but we all know that I can't.  Wednesday I have 4 steers going to slaughter, they are four of the most healthy contented animals you would ever care to see. These critters that I have looked after,fed,watered, worried over for 22 months will provide sustenance to my extended family of 22 humans. One of them is traded to a friend for a pig that was also humanely and lovingly raised.  We now have three white tail deer in the freezer to also provide lean protein to our diet. Actually I am not real crazy about the venison since the deer around here subsist on almost nothing but GMO Roundup ready corn and beans.  We have a few chickens for eggs, but it is cheaper to buy the meat hens already processed from an Amish neighbor than to raise our own.

I refuse to feel guilty for living my life as an omnivore as nature intended.  There are certain facts about the Human animal that are just that, facts,and no amount of "enlightenment " or lifestyle will change.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 28, 2016)

Aunt Bea, if you haven't looked yet, we have numerous vegan and vegetarian recipes in our food section here, under the sub-forum "Recipes".  Here are just a few. 

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/16166-Creamy-Mushroom-Stroganoff
https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/21487-Hummus-Veggie-Wrap
https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/21577-Curried-Carrot-and-Avocado-Soup

https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...oes-with-Fresh-Basil-and-Mozzarella-Appetizer
https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/547-My-Homemade-Guacamole-Dip
https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/20629-Healthy-Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Recipes


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## Debby (Nov 29, 2016)

Robusta said:


> I was going to stay out of this but we all know that I can't.  Wednesday I have 4 steers going to slaughter, they are four of the most healthy contented animals you would ever care to see. These critters that I have looked after,fed,watered, worried over for 22 months will provide sustenance to my extended family of 22 humans. One of them is traded to a friend for a pig that was also humanely and lovingly raised.  We now have three white tail deer in the freezer to also provide lean protein to our diet. Actually I am not real crazy about the venison since the deer around here subsist on almost nothing but GMO Roundup ready corn and beans.  We have a few chickens for eggs, but it is cheaper to buy the meat hens already processed from an Amish neighbor than to raise our own.
> 
> I refuse to feel guilty for living my life as an omnivore as nature intended.  There are certain facts about the Human animal that are just that, facts,and no amount of "enlightenment " or lifestyle will change.




Since we're 'going there', I'm just going to remind you that you are not the last experience that your animals will have.  Cattle can smell blood five miles away so as they are approaching the place of their death, they will not be unaware.  While that slaughterhouse that they are going to may not be like the big places that process 300 per hour, they will still know that something is wrong and that they don't want to be there, away from everything that is familiar and safe.  

But fortunately meat consumption is dropping in North America so fewer animals will go through what you find so acceptable.  And as the world finally wakes up to the damage that animal ag is having on the planet, science is developing new, safer and better ways to feed the people on this planet so one day, maybe a few generations from now, we will be looking back at an archaic lifestyle.  Given that more protein calories per acre is available from plants than from 'beasts', meat production is a waste on so many levels and we need to do better.

It was interesting that National Geographic did a piece on Brazil  last week and the damage that the cattle industry is causing in that country and that impacts the world weather systems.  To date, that country has lost 20% of its Amazon rainforest for the sake of cattle and the expectation is that in the next 15 years they will lose another 20%.  There is a loss of biodiversity to contend with, not to mention the impact that it has on the worlds rain patterns that is impaired by that loss as well as absorption of the GHG's that are emitted by our lifestyle.

Overall, the industry is responsible for 18-50% (depending on which report you look at) of GHG emissions, plus tons of antibiotic use that finds its way into water systems and has brought about the advent of super-bugs, plus mega tons of animal waste that also pollutes both the air and the water.  Robusta, you are a small (almost inconsequential) part of a much larger system that causes grievous damage and suffering and our great grandchildren will also be paying the price for choices made today.  One can only wonder what they will feel (damaged and suffering?) when the waterways are fouled or non-existent and the temperatures are drying up the fields so that crops won't grow.  Perhaps the thought of 'their thoughts' is what motivated the UN to call for an end to meat consumption.  That and images like this:



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet

*UN urges global move to meat and dairy-free diet*

Lesser consumption of animal products is necessary to save the world from the worst impacts of climate change, UN report says

(and that folks, is what is going on in the world that so many don't want to talk about)


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## Debby (Nov 29, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> Aunt Bea, if you haven't looked yet, we have numerous vegan and vegetarian recipes in our food section here, under the sub-forum "Recipes".  Here are just a few.
> 
> https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/16166-Creamy-Mushroom-Stroganoff
> https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/21487-Hummus-Veggie-Wrap
> ...




Those are nice recipes SeaBreeze!  Thank you for sharing them and I'm especially liking the stroganoff.  I'd probably dump in a cup of chick peas too to just 'round it out'.  And with the carrot and avocado soup, I'd maybe include some quinoa.  That wouldn't even alter the colour of the soup.  

And believe me, 'colour' or appearance can be a bit of an issue.  I once tried a new recipe with company coming (don't do it by the way layful.  With my company seated, hungry and anticipating, I brought the bowls of black bean soup to the table and started out by apologizing for the way it looked.  Tasted fabulous but it looked like bowls of mud!  Fortunately, folks 'closed their eyes' figuratively speaking and licked the bowls clean (also figuratively speaking)


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## Cookie (Nov 29, 2016)

Thanks Debbie and Seabreeze for the recipes and sites.  Very helpful and inspiring.  I've been doing this for 45 years now, that's right, 45 years.  Don't get me wrong, I am getting my protein, and meal preparation can be challenging at times, but not impossible.  I find I can be creative and inventive as well as organized most of the time, other times less so, but that's OK. 

Debbie, thanks so much for your encouraging words and the insightful and informative posts. I hope people read them and take them to heart. My 95 year old friend who has been a vegan for most of her life was telling me last night me about her 96 year old brother who is hooked on his bacon and eggs every morning and nothing she said could sway him from this routine, and she wondered why she even bothered.  He had lived out his whole life and survived (although has some health issues) and I agreed with her that by now it was best for him to keep doing what he was doing, and not to upset him. Besides, some people are genetically predisposed to live a long time no matter what they do. 

And as far as the aging population goes if people haven't made some changes by now, would it make a big difference? Maybe if they want to stay healthy. Maybe to the environmental damage, but really how long will this last.  I think its only a matter of time, maybe another 20-30 years before the younger generation who has learned to be environmentally and health conscious from an early age will take over and will be the dominant force to make a positive impact on our world.  Lets hope so.


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## Debby (Nov 29, 2016)

Agree with everything you said Cookie.  And 45 years!  Oh my goodness, you started a long time ago and that is inspiring.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 30, 2016)

It wouldn't be so bad if they just killed the animals cleanly and ate them for food. But these prolonged rituals serve no purpose especially in this day and age. I still see too much mistreatment of dogs in the US. Too many view these animals as an accessory, burglar alarm, security guard, fighting money machine tec but not as a living creatures that can experience pain, discomfort and fear.

To stray just a bit. With bull fighting is the bull eventually served up as food?, How about the chicken in SantaRia is it? -Saw a horrific picture of bull on fire with in the last month. I don't give a darn about rituals or customs when I see stuff like that. Animals should be treated as food, as pets/family or left alone in their own environment. There should be no room for these outdated practices.


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2016)

I thought the dog lovers here would like to rejoice with me that the following has just happened, well sometime today, that Korea's largest and most horrific dog meat market has been closed down as of today!  Isn't that wonderful and all the result of activists pushing and talking to the authorities there and people like us signing petitions!  So wonderful to hear and an incentive to never give up in doing what is good and kind and just!

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/south-koreas-largest-dog-meat-market-closes-its-doors/

'...Most recently, Moran Market, one of the most infamous dog meat markets in South Korea, responsible for the sale of around 80,000 dogs a year, officially shut its doors!... And it looks like years of persistence have finally paid off – for the benefit of so many dogs!



Doesn't he look like a happy fellow!  Great news to him!


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## Robusta (Dec 14, 2016)

That is a good thing!


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## Falcon (Dec 14, 2016)

It's about time !  Hope other countries will do the same.

Thanks WIT & Debby


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