# Americans!  Have you ever been ashamed to be an American?



## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

No need to tell us why or when.  I personally believe that we, have at times done things that I am ashamed of.  Does that make me a bad citizen or a realist?


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## Ameriscot (Apr 21, 2015)

George Bush made me embarrassed to be American.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> George Bush made me embarrassed to be American.



You a mind reader?


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## Ameriscot (Apr 21, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> You a mind reader?



I was thinking back to all the jokes about stupid Americans when he became prez while I was adjusting to being a foreigner in the UK. It was humiliating!  TV interviews with morons who said they voted for him cuz he's the kinda guy you could sit in a bar and have a beer with. A major newspaper showing a map of US and an arrow pointing to the UK saying 'we are here' because he wasn't too good at geography. 

I was very tempted to claim I was Canadian!


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

There were so many times in his time.  Like his turning  down Cuba when they were close to the first to offer doctors and nurses and supplies after Katrina.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, same here. And Iraq, although Blair followed him.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Shock and Awe my ass.


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## Louis (Apr 21, 2015)

In my opinion, George W. Bush is a disgrace to America.


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## Josiah (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm ashamed that much of the developed world has passed us by in many important areas such as healthcare, education, social safety net, gun control, switching to alternative sources of energy to name just a few.


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## oakapple (Apr 21, 2015)

Don't stop now, surely there's more? What an enjoyable thread!


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## oakapple (Apr 21, 2015)

Even the better countries in the world do things for their citizens to be ashamed of ( including the UK)


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## hollydolly (Apr 21, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Even the better countries in the world do things for their citizens to be ashamed of ( including the UK)



The UK?...how very dare you...Never!!! :wink:


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## Shalimar (Apr 21, 2015)

There are times when I am very ashamed to be a  Canadian, people, and therefore countries are embarrassingly fallible. You are not alone Jim.


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## Shalimar (Apr 21, 2015)

Ooh, Holly!!!


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Many feel that by pointing out anything negative about America makes you anti-American.  I was born here, I was educated here, I  enlisted in our military, I took the oath to defend us against all enemies foreign and domestic but damn it we are fallible.  And I also don't like the attitude that we are the "worlds leader" or that the President of the US is also the "Leader of the free world".


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## hollydolly (Apr 21, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Ooh, Holly!!!




*looks around innocently*....errrm yes Shali, did you say something?


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## ~Lenore (Apr 21, 2015)

*I have never been ashamed to be an American or of America.  

I am ashamed of the current president though.  

I know there will be a lot slammed at me for daring to say that but have at it.  I do not care what you who are ashamed of our country think or have to say. 

 I will not reply to any slams.*


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## Josiah (Apr 21, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Don't stop now, surely there's more? What an enjoyable thread!



I'm afraid I don't see that wringing our hands in dismay at our embarrassing national failings makes for a very enjoyable thread. A forthright thread maybe but hardly enjoyable.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 21, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Many feel that by pointing out anything negative about America makes you anti-American.  I was born here, I was educated here, I  enlisted in our military, I took the oath to defend us against all enemies foreign and domestic but damn it we are fallible.  And I also don't like the attitude that we are the "worlds leader" or that the President of the US is also the "Leader of the free world".



I get that all the time since I 'deserted' my country.  But I stopped being a 'blind patriot' when I saw America from a different perspective.  

The US is rated by the WHO as 37th in healthcare.  Shameful.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 21, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I'm afraid I don't see that wringing our hands in dismay at our embarrassing national failings makes for a very enjoyable thread. A forthright thread maybe but hardly enjoyable.



Josiah, maybe she's just tired of Americans saying it's the greatest country in the world as a statement of fact which can't be disputed by anyone.  And that everybody in the world would give anything to live there.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

~Lenore said:


> *I have never been ashamed to be an American or of America.
> 
> I am ashamed of the current president though.
> 
> ...



Would you care to tell us why you are ashamed of our current President?

Ok, I gave you plenty of time to tell us so I'll answer for you.  You are ashamed because he is a DEMOCRAT.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 21, 2015)

I have no problem outlining exactly why I am ashamed..   

Our present  Congress embarasses me and makes me ashamed..  All the nasty hatred aimed at minorities, women, the poor... the cuts to programs that help people...Kissing the NRAs ass and  the constant war mongering is humiliting us... All the world is watching and all these morons can do is sling nasty viotrol  around.. making us a lauging stock...   Not to mention the very overt treasonous actions and Rhetoric involving our Presidents attempt at peace negotiations..  Disgusting. AND the obvious disrespect they have for our President... who IMO is one of the BEST we have every had.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

I just love the Texans who voted for Rick Perry, a proven idiot, criticizing our President.


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## Lon (Apr 21, 2015)

I am ashamed when abroad and I see some of my fellow Ameicans acting and speaking in a shameful and disrespectful manner to locals.


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## Falcon (Apr 21, 2015)

I've never been ashamed before but am now with the government  we have in office now.  *ALL THE WAY UP TO THE VERY TOP!*

 You asked; I told.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Falcon said:


> I've never been ashamed before but am now with the government  we have in office now.  *ALL THE WAY UP TO THE VERY TOP!*
> 
> You asked; I told.



Amazing John, you lived through the Bush Presidency and didn't have a moment of shame but now you do?  Why are you ashamed of our current President.*  I'm sure you have many good reasons?*


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## Falcon (Apr 21, 2015)

I refuse to elaborate....a lost cause. Just overwhelmed by the preponderance of liberals on this forum.
When the $$$ runs out, maybe you'll catch on.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

~Lenore said:


> *I have never been ashamed to be an American or of America.
> 
> I am ashamed of the current president though.
> 
> ...



It's never polite to drop a turd in the punchbowl and leave the party.  Some would say cowardly.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 21, 2015)

Falcon said:


> I refuse to elaborate....a lost cause. Just overwhelmed by the preponderance of liberals on this forum.
> When the $$$ runs out, maybe you'll catch on.




Isn't that funny?   See.... I have always thought that there were far too many Concervatives here..  But I guess it depends on your preference.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Falcon said:


> I refuse to elaborate....a lost cause. Just overwhelmed by the preponderance of liberals on this forum.
> When the $$$ runs out, maybe you'll catch on.



John, We are not "liberals", we are Americans.  I ask only when someone makes such a point of not liking our President they share their reason.  If you won't do that I will have to categorize you as one of the detractors who only dislike his skin color or his political party.


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## Glinda (Apr 21, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I was thinking back to all the jokes about stupid Americans when he became prez while I was adjusting to being a foreigner in the UK. It was humiliating!  TV interviews with morons who said they voted for him cuz he's the kinda guy you could sit in a bar and have a beer with. A major newspaper showing a map of US and an arrow pointing to the UK saying 'we are here' because he wasn't too good at geography.
> 
> I was very tempted to claim I was Canadian!



One of my favorite souvenirs of Canada is a green baseball cap that says "Canada" and displays a small Canadian flag.  During the time period you reference, I traveled in Europe and South America.  I made sure to wear that cap wherever I went.  I'm still ashamed that that "person" was ever greased into our White House.


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## Josiah (Apr 21, 2015)

Falcon said:


> I refuse to elaborate....a lost cause. Just overwhelmed by the preponderance of liberals on this forum.
> When the $$$ runs out, maybe you'll catch on.



I can see Falcon's point.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I can see Falcon's point.



Don't confuse friendship with logic.  Sure there are many liberals here, but I have been on sites where liberals were outnumbered 50 to one.  Do you think I didn't have an opinion there?  No way.  I believe every man has a right to his opinion but he has the responsibility to back it up as well.


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## jujube (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm coming late to the discussion but nope, I've never have been ashamed to be an American.  I am a citizen of the greatest country on earth.  I am on occasion embarrassed by my elected officers, a lot of public figures who also happen to be American and some of my relatives...ok, a lot of my relatives...but I am not embarrassed by nor ashamed of my country.


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I'm ashamed that much of the developed world has passed us by in many important areas such as healthcare, education, social safety net, gun control, switching to alternative sources of energy to name just a few.


In spite of some of the above mentioned conditions in the U.S., you can't deny its scenic beauty, its diversity, its high level of tolerance, its generosity, its friendliness, its high spirits!
There's absolutely NO SHAME in being an American and treasuring American values!


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## QuickSilver (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> In spite of some of the above mentioned conditions in the U.S., you can't deny its scenic beauty, its diversity, its high level of tolerance, its generosity, its friendliness, its high spirits!
> There's absolutely NO SHAME in being an American and treasuring American values!



Can you elaborate on just what "American Values" are? and would people not having those particular "values" or disagree in some way not quite as American as those who agree?


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## Misty (Apr 21, 2015)

I am not ashamed to be an American, and Very Proud to be one, and I agree totally with Lenora and Falcon, and
I too am not going to give my reason's either. They won't be agreed with and will be attacked as usual. Bush is still being run down on the forum. Much reading on the forum about how disrespected Pres. Obama is being treated, hard to believe the other side of the aisle, doesn't remember how disrespected Pres. Bush was and is still being called names on here even tho he has been out of office for 6 years, In the news, it showed Pres. Bush being hung in effigy, a collection of names was collected to name a sewer after him etc, and through it all, he never complained to anyone about it....just put up with it.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 21, 2015)

Oh... poor Dubya

I don't think that being an American means that one has to be proud of all the stupid crap going on in our Government.... One can love ones country and still speak out about what is wrong with it.   And how we treat our own people, particularly those needing help is a major embarassment.


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## Josiah (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> In spite of some of the above mentioned conditions in the U.S., you can't deny its scenic beauty, its diversity, its high level of tolerance, its generosity, its friendliness, its high spirits!
> There's absolutely NO SHAME in being an American and treasuring American values!



Hi Susie, I'll grant you all the virtues you mention accept perhaps tolerance and generosity. But I continue to feel shame about the serious shortcoming I listed plus I would add our selfish preoccupation with what's best for me rather than what's good for the country.


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Can you elaborate on just what "American Values" are? and would people not having those particular "values" or disagree in some way not quite as American as those who agree?


Thank you for your question, Quicksilver.
I've had to ask Mr. Google for help in defining the "American value system", and a large number of definitions appeared: 
I chose the following one (have only skimmed most of it, but found a list and summary of American values on p. 7):

http://www.uri.edu/mind/VALUES2.pdf


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

There is no shame in being big enough to admit that we are capable of making mistakes, Look, I am a proud American, maybe more so than some of those who disagree with me.  I am also a realist. We are no different or superior to any other country, we CAN and HAVE made mistakes, to dent this is to emulate the ostrich and hide our heads in the sand.


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## Debby (Apr 21, 2015)

jujube said:


> I'm coming late to the discussion but nope, I've never have been ashamed to be an American.  I am a citizen of the greatest country on earth.  I am on occasion embarrassed by my elected officers, a lot of public figures who also happen to be American and some of my relatives...ok, a lot of my relatives...but I am not embarrassed by nor ashamed of my country.




So are you saying you love the real estate?  Because I'd go along with that.  And maybe you're saying you 'love' most of the citizens?  Because I'd go along with that too.   

As for the 'greatest country', hmmm you can't not include your foreign affairs policy in the discussion and that subtracts a lot of points.  I think if your administration started working at getting along with the rest of the globe and not taking advantage, you'd have the potential to be 'one of the greatest countries in the world'.    So many great things, inventions and technologies have come out of the USA....and so many good people with drive and determination and so on!  Definitely lots to be proud of, too bad about both your political parties.  But then that could be said about many countries government couldn't it?


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## Debby (Apr 21, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh... poor Dubya
> 
> I don't think that being an American means that one has to be proud of all the stupid crap going on in our Government.... One can love ones country and still speak out about what is wrong with it.   And how we treat our own people, particularly those needing help is a major embarassment.





Right on!    I think it's a citizens responsibility to notice what those politicians/shysters are doing and let them know when they stray from the straight and narrow (after all, they are supposed to represent the people)!  Of course it's always a question as to whether or not they listen.....


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## applecruncher (Apr 21, 2015)

No, I've never been ashamed to be an American.
Furthermore, anyone who IS ashamed to be an American is and always has been free to move to another country.  Good luck with that!


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> No, I've never been ashamed to be an American.
> Furthermore, anyone who IS ashamed to be an American is and always has been free to move to another country.  Good luck with that!
> 
> View attachment 17286



I've paid my dues to be here, so I think I'll stay.  The ability to find fault and hopefully make things better is a wonderful trait.


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## Shalimar (Apr 21, 2015)

Glinda, out of curiosity, do Americans still pass as Canadians when travelling the world? With our current global status, I doubt that would be wise.


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## koala (Apr 21, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Many feel that by pointing out anything negative about America makes you anti-American.  I was born here, I was educated here, I  enlisted in our military, I took the oath to defend us against all enemies foreign and domestic but damn it we are fallible.  And I also don't like the attitude that we are the "worlds leader" or that the President of the US is also the "Leader of the free world".


AZ Jim there are a few countries standing in the shadow of the Worlds leader and leader of the free World currently......China, India, Pakistan to name a few, just slowly marking time to swoop on the title.
However what makes the person or the country take the title any way, is it deserved, is it important and who does the rating??? Discussion.....


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 21, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> No need to tell us why or when.  I personally believe that we, have at times done things that I am ashamed of.  Does that make me a bad citizen or a realist?



A realist.  I was born and raised in the USA, and I'm proud to be an American.  There's no other place I'd rather be, that's for sure!  I've never felt ashamed personally, but there are things that the government has done over the years that I'm not very proud of, starting with the Native Americans, and continuing with the invasions of other countries and senseless wars over the years that have cost both money and lives. There's reasons some other countries hate us, we are far from perfect, hard to reach perfection with so much corruption in government in our history.  Also behind the scenes treatment of our military over the years.  All in all though, the good definitely outweighs the bad.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 21, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> A realist.  I was born and raised in the USA, and I'm proud to be an American.  There's no other place I'd rather be, that's for sure!  I've never felt ashamed personally, but there are things that the government has done over the years that I'm not very proud of, starting with the Native Americans, and continuing with the invasions of other countries and senseless wars over the years that have cost both money and lives. There's reasons some other countries hate us, we are far from perfect, hard to reach perfection with so much corruption in government in our history.  Also behind the scenes treatment of our military over the years.  All in all though, the good definitely outweighs the bad.



I agree SB, the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make it better where we can.  I love my country and have for almost 79 years.


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## Glinda (Apr 21, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Glinda, out of curiosity, do Americans still pass as Canadians when travelling the world? With our current global status, I doubt that would be wise.



Huh?  Who doesn't like Canadians?  Did I miss something again??  Dang!


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## Shalimar (Apr 22, 2015)

I have an English friend who travels widely in Europe and beyond. Apparently, among environmentally conscious individuals, we are known as a country run by Eco-terrrorists. This references the  Alberta Tar Sands. If the fight in the courts to stop the oil travelling down my coast fails, who knows what we will be called. I will probably be in jail for civil disobedience, should this come to pass. Then too, there is our appalling disregard re the unexplained deaths/disappearances of up to several hundred  aboriginal women along our highway of tears. Amnesty International has called for an investigation, Prime Minister Harper refuses. Wonderful, add to that Harper's rabid pro Zionist views, it ain't pretty. We are no longer respected. Sad, but deserved.


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## Underock1 (Apr 22, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> No need to tell us why or when.  I personally believe that we, have at times done things that I am ashamed of.  Does that make me a bad citizen or a realist?



Another realist! Yes I have, but don't tell anyone, they'll make us leave the country. The United States is a wonderful place, and I do believe, despite all, that it has made the world a better place. It's a mixed bag though. The government certainly doesn't always act in accordance with the will of the people. We should really drop the "We're number one" chant while waving a big finger, because with the exception of the military, we're not. Just answering Jim's question here. I really don't want to get into political discussions.


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## Underock1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> George Bush made me embarrassed to be American.



He made me embarrassed to be a human.


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## Underock1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Just to try and stay on track. Jim's question was not _are _you ashamed to be an American, but _" _have you _ever _been.
Heck. I'm ashamed to be _me _on many occasions.


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## Josiah (Apr 22, 2015)

To expand the scope of this thread a bit (sorry Jim), I would also admit a good deal of shame for the human specie for plundering this beautiful planet, for causing the extinction of countless species of our fellow animals and plants and for polluting the air, the water and the very Earth itself.


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## Underock1 (Apr 22, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I've paid my dues to be here, so I think I'll stay.  The ability to find fault and hopefully make things better is a wonderful trait.



See Jim? I told you they were going to ask us to leave. Offensive bumper stickers. One of the things that make me ashamed.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Hey, of course we we have made a few missteps in our effort to make the world safe for democracy, but I refuse to be ashamed for our good intentions.  God bless America!


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> No, I've never been ashamed to be an American.
> Furthermore, anyone who IS ashamed to be an American is and always has been free to move to another country.  Good luck with that!
> 
> View attachment 17286



Excuse me?    I was BORN here...  I've worked and paid taxes for 46 years... I brought two sons into the world who served in the US military..  One did TWO tours of duty in the Gulf..    SO...  I should GET OUT because I see things that are not right...    If you own a home and the roof leaks... do you fix the roof?  or do you move?...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hey, of course we we have made a few missteps in our effort to make the world safe for democracy, but I refuse to be ashamed for our good intentions.  God bless America!



You know what they say about "good intentions" don't you?


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## oldman (Apr 22, 2015)

Ashamed to be an American? Absolutely not now or ever. That doesn't mean that I have agreed with everything that our leaders have done, but I am a proud American. 

This must be a great country. Why else are there so many trying to get in?


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## Debby (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Excuse me?    I was BORN here...  I've worked and paid taxes for 46 years... I brought two sons into the world who served in the US military..  One did TWO tours of duty in the Gulf..    SO...  I should GET OUT because I see things that are not right...    If you own a home and the roof leaks... do you fix the roof?  or do you move?...




Excellent points QS.  I always find it strange that some try to shut down criticism by calling into question, the other person's right to live where they are.  That's certainly the way to make sure that the government never goes astray isn't it?


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## Debby (Apr 22, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I have an English friend who travels widely in Europe and beyond. Apparently, among environmentally conscious individuals, we are known as a country run by Eco-terrrorists. This references the  Alberta Tar Sands. If the fight in the courts to stop the oil travelling down my coast fails, who knows what we will be called. I will probably be in jail for civil disobedience, should this come to pass. Then too, there is our appalling disregard re the unexplained deaths/disappearances of up to several hundred  aboriginal women along our highway of tears. Amnesty International has called for an investigation, Prime Minister Harper refuses. Wonderful, add to that Harper's rabid pro Zionist views, it ain't pretty. We are no longer respected. Sad, but deserved.




All of the above - my sorrow as well.  We should be doing better for the environment, First Nations people, and even start picking our friends with more consideration as to how they support the great good rather than what 'our minister is saying on a Sunday morning'!


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## Ameriscot (Apr 22, 2015)

oldman said:


> Ashamed to be an American? Absolutely not now or ever. That doesn't mean that I have agreed with everything that our leaders have done, but I am a proud American.
> 
> This must be a great country. Why else are there so many trying to get in?



Poor people are trying to get in because they believe the fairy tale that they'll make lots of money. Professionals move there because of $$$, not because the country is 'great'.  The idea that everybody in the world wants to live in the US is simply arrogant propoganda.  And you wonder why the rest of the world calls Americans arrogant.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

Debby said:


> Excellent points QS.  I always find it strange that some try to shut down criticism by calling into question, the other person's right to live where they are.  That's certainly the way to make sure that the government never goes astray isn't it?



Well, it's certainly the way to make sure that Americans stay polarized and divided while the foxes take over the hen house.. It's how the Billionaire class has succeeded in gaining the power they have..  Make sure the average American is so busy blaming and arguing with other average Americans and they won't notice they have lost their country and their democracy until it's too late.   AND I'm afraid that it's already too late.

We are so busy arguing about abortion, gay rights, gun control, healthcare, food stamps that we have hardly noticed that the top 10% of Americans have 75% of the wealth in this country... leaving just a measly 25% for the rest of us to share..   BUT... people keep voting based on the wedge issues with little regard for what is happening to them and to the welfare of future generations.   The ruling class has succeeded, and will not be happy until they control ALL the wealth and the rest of us can beg in the streets for their benevolence.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Excuse me?    I was BORN here...  I've worked and paid taxes for 46 years... I brought two sons into the world who served in the US military..  One did TWO tours of duty in the Gulf..    SO...  I should GET OUT because I see things that are not right...    If you own a home and the roof leaks... do you fix the roof?  or do you move?...



It's that 'America, love it or leave it crap' that drives me and others nuts.  I was born in the US and paid taxes and I get US pensions that I earned.  I moved elsewhere for my own reasons, not because I hated the US.  But with everything that has been going on there since I moved away I'd be tempted to leave if I hadn't already.  Guns, racism, anti-gay, wingnuts who will do anything to make Obama look bad, fundamentalists.  Seems to me America is going backwards, not forward.  And I find that sad as I'd like to be proud to be an American again. 

My oldest son did two tours in the Gulf as well. 

As for Americans abroad pretending to be Canadians, I've seen many, many younger tourists with Canadian flags on their backpacks, some are Canadian, some are Americans pretending to be.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It's that 'America, love it or leave it crap' that drives me and others nuts.  I was born in the US and paid taxes and I get US pensions that I earned.  I moved elsewhere for my own reasons, not because I hated the US.  But with everything that has been going on there since I moved away I'd be tempted to leave if I hadn't already.  Guns, racism, anti-gay, wingnuts who will do anything to make Obama look bad, fundamentalists.  Seems to me America is going backwards, not forward.  And I find that sad as I'd like to be proud to be an American again.
> 
> My oldest son did two tours in the Gulf as well.
> 
> As for Americans abroad pretending to be Canadians, I've seen many, many younger tourists with Canadian flags on their backpacks, some are Canadian, some are Americans pretending to be.



yeah... the more I think about the comment... the more insulted I become.   I would like to see an apology... but we know THAT won't happen.


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## oldman (Apr 22, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Poor people are trying to get in because they believe the fairy tale that they'll make lots of money. Professionals move there because of $$$, not because the country is 'great'.  The idea that everybody in the world wants to live in the US is simply arrogant propoganda.  And you wonder why the rest of the world calls Americans arrogant.



No, I don't wonder about it and I don't consider myself arrogant, but do think that I am fortunate to be living in a country where I can say and do what I like and worship the way I please. 

I do know that the U.S. is the most immigrated country in the world with no close second. Regardless of why they come here, the fact remains that people from other countries do want to come. America is still the land of opportunity and most people have the opportunity to live out their dreams here in America, if they are willing to do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goal. True, not everyone is going to become a millionaire and if that is everyone's expectations, they may wish to re-evaluate their goals.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

oldman said:


> No, I don't wonder about it and I don't consider myself arrogant, but do think that I am fortunate to be living in a country where I can say and do what I like and worship the way I please.
> 
> I do know that the U.S. is the most immigrated country in the world with no close second. Regardless of why they come here, the fact remains that people from other countries do want to come. America is still the land of opportunity and most people have the opportunity to live out their dreams here in America, if they are willing to do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goal. True, not everyone is going to become a millionaire and if that is everyone's expectations, they may wish to re-evaluate their goals.



Unfortunately most of what you say is a myth which may at one time been true...but no longer is.   Among what we consider 1st world countries, we are dead last in the area of upward mobility..   meaning if you are born poor in the USA, you will more than likely remain poor.   In fact.. ours is the first generation whose kids will likely not be as well off as we are.  It is nearly impossible with the present "deck stacking" for a poor or middleclass individual to move into a higher economic class.  





Also... the notion that people are flocking here in droves is  a myth..  In fact the US is now at a net negative immigration rate... ie more people are leaving than coming. and are predicted to continue to decrease.









As for freedom to worship... that may be very true... however, I would have to ask the current population of Muslim citizens how comfortable they are being made to feel..  OR people who choose to NOT practice a religion... how are they looked at or treated?


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## Jackie22 (Apr 22, 2015)

So many great post on this thread....Yes, there are times I'm ashamed to be an American, even though I love this country,  I think there are too many people that refuse to be a realist and it is adding to the demise of this country, just one example of many is the fact that these people will believe the propaganda of the Republican/Tea party over scientist on Climate Change.....there are so many more, many have already been well stated. They just refuse to acknowledge the truth, no matter all the facts brought forth or the damage it causes.


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## Misty (Apr 22, 2015)

Do other leaders from other countries, apologize for their country, as our leader does when visiting other countries, or is it just our leader that finds it necessary?


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> So many great post on this thread....Yes, there are times I'm ashamed to be an American, even though I love this country,  I think there are too many people that refuse to be a realist and it is adding to the demise of this country, just one example of many is the fact that these people will believe the propaganda of the Republican/Tea party over scientist on Climate Change.....there are so many more, many have already been well stated. They just refuse to acknowledge the truth, no matter all the facts brought forth or the damage it causes.



There is only one question to ask when buying into this propaganda... "Who is set to PROFIT from this".   Most if not all of the anti-climate change rhetoric is bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry.   OF COURSE they don't want consumption of fossil fuel to decline..  it wouldn't make the shareholders happy.  Of COURSE industry does not want regulation of greenhouse gasses... to install equipment that would clean up their waste would cut into profit margins.  Better yet to apply junk science or pay some high priced "expert" to spout nonsense to the gullible who prefer to see the protection of our environment as some sort of liberal socialist plot.  Very sad..


----------



## Ralphy1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes, and wait until we get our hands on Cuba again!


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## applecruncher (Apr 22, 2015)

Look at the title of this thread.

“Americans have you ever been ashamed to be an American?”

No one said that anyone has to love/agree with everything this country has ever done. No one said you have to love it or leave it. No one said that anyone has to love this president or any past president. No one said that everyone has to agree with this congress or any past congress. No one said that anyone has to like taxes or guns, or drugs or crime or racism or injustice or poverty. No one said anything about this being a perfect country.

And no one said anything about a leaky roof. That straw man analogy is silly. But if you want to go down that road……..

If you live in a place and the landlord won’t make repairs, the quality of the neighborhood has declined, it’s noisy, dirty, unsafe, and the rent keeps increasing, do you just keep whining while continuing to suffer and pay to live there? Well, maybe – if you’re stupid. But anyone with an ounce of sense would find a better place to live and be happy. Pack and move – GET OUT.

_Again: the question is:__
“Americans have you ever been ashamed to be an American?”_ 
If you are ashamed to live in America, you owe it to yourself to find a better country and move there. And as I said before, good luck with that.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

:shucks:So I take it no apology is forthcoming?   lol!!


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> No, I've never been ashamed to be an American.
> Furthermore, anyone who IS ashamed to be an American is and always has been free to move to another country.  Good luck with that!
> 
> View attachment 17286



This appears to directly contradict your "no one said" comment.  Anyhow, since I was probably here first, since I did an enlistment in our military service, since I have voted every single election since I became eligible, since I have served my community in several ways over the years, and since my only brushes with the law ere speeding tickets, I plan on staying right here.  Like it or don't.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 22, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> The United States is a wonderful place, and I do believe, despite all, that it has made the world a better place. It's a mixed bag though. The government certainly doesn't always act in accordance with the will of the people. We should really drop the "We're number one" chant while waving a big finger, because with the exception of the military, we're not.



I agree Underock.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> This appears to directly contradict your "no one said" comment.  Anyhow, since I was probably here first, since I did an enlistment in our military service, since I have voted every single election since I became eligible, since I have served my community in several ways over the years, and since my only brushes with the law ere speeding tickets, I plan on staying right here.  Like it or don't.



Not to mention... what business does any American have telling another to leave?


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Not to mention... what business does any American have telling another to leave?



None, but..........I DO NOT take her seriously, If you know what I mean.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

Misty said:


> Do other leaders from other countries, apologize for their country, as our leader does when visiting other countries, or is it just our leader that finds it necessary?




I believe the first test of a truly great leader is his humility.

John Ruskin


----------



## oldman (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Unfortunately most of what you say is a myth which may at one time been true...but no longer is.   Among what we consider 1st world countries, we are dead last in the area of upward mobility..   meaning if you are born poor in the USA, you will more than likely remain poor.   In fact.. ours is the first generation whose kids will likely not be as well off as we are.  It is nearly impossible with the present "deck stacking" for a poor or middleclass individual to move into a higher economic class.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A myth, hardly. The U.S. leads all other countries with immigration (numbers). Regardless of charts and graphs, they still keep coming to the U.S. As for becoming wealthy, well, that's up to the individual. IMO, I think they keep coming to the U.S. in hopes of a better life.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

oldman said:


> A myth, hardly. The U.S. leads all other countries with immigration (numbers). Regardless of charts and graphs, they still keep coming to the U.S. As for becoming wealthy, well, that's up to the individual. IMO, I think they keep coming to the U.S. in hopes of a better life.



Not hardly..


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

oldman said:


> A myth, hardly. The U.S. leads all other countries with immigration (numbers). *Regardless of charts and graphs, they still keep coming to the U.S. *As for becoming wealthy, well, that's up to the individual. IMO, I think they keep coming to the U.S. in hopes of a better life.



In other words, forget the facts and listen to my opinion?  I think I'll stick with the actual statistics.


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## Debby (Apr 22, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I believe the first test of a truly great leader is his humility.
> 
> John Ruskin




Humility in a politician????  What is that and how will I recognize it if it happens?  

Seriously, how many times have we all listened to a politician try to lie his way out of a scrape he's gotten himself into and we've thought to ourselves, "if he or she would just apologize we'd be more likely to forgive" but then they don't and we're still just PO'd.  So yes, leadership can be demonstrated by humility and asking forgiveness.  After all, asking anyone to forgive you is a hard thing to do by any measure and therefore, the 'man' who asks for forgiveness is a man with strength of character in my book.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

Debby said:


> Humility in a politician????  What is that and how will I recognize it if it happens?
> 
> Seriously, how many times have we all listened to a politician try to lie his way out of a scrape he's gotten himself into and we've thought to ourselves, "if he or she would just apologize we'd be more likely to forgive" but then they don't and we're still just PO'd.  So yes, leadership can be demonstrated by humility and asking forgiveness.  After all, asking anyone to forgive you is a hard thing to do by any measure and therefore, the 'man' who asks for forgiveness is a man with strength of character in my book.



I don't have to tell you that I absolutely agree Deb, but I will.


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## applecruncher (Apr 22, 2015)

For those who have been/are ashamed to be an American, ask yourselves what steps you took/are taking to alleviate your suffering.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> For those who have been/are ashamed to be an American, ask yourselves what steps you took/are taking to alleviate your suffering.



Voting..  And making phone calls to my Representative and Senators.. Every single time something they are doing upsets me..  IS there something else I should be doing... besides leaving?


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## koala (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Not hardly..



Maybe we know how to do it in Australia


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## DoItMyself (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> IS there something else I should be doing... besides leaving?



Sure.  Run for office, get elected and make some real grass roots changes rather than sit around on a discussion forum and gripe.  Not only will you be able to change things for the better, but you'll find that being productive is extremely refreshing.


----------



## applecruncher (Apr 22, 2015)

DoItMyself said:


> Sure. Run for office, get elected and make some real grass roots changes rather than sit around on a discussion forum and gripe. Not only will you be able to change things for the better, but you'll find that being productive is extremely refreshing.




:clap:  Bingo!!


----------



## tnthomas (Apr 22, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> George Bush made me embarrassed to be American.



Not ashamed, but embarrassed, mainly because of how the electorate had been so blind, so duped...


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> Not ashamed, but embarrassed, mainly because of how the electorate had been so blind, so duped...



Yes, I did not use the word ashamed in any of my posts, but embarrassed as people tend to paint a whole nation's people by a what a few do.

In 2004 someone insisted I tell her why America (re)elected Bush when he is clearly an idiot.  I was expected to know the answer and she did not want to take 'I don't know' for a reply.  I finally stopped replying.  

I did get to feel proud to be American when Obama was elected in 2008 and it was especially sweet since I was living in Uganda at the time and his father was from the country next door. Europe was very impressed with Americans for electing him as well.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, I did not use the word ashamed in any of my posts, but embarrassed as people tend to paint a whole nation's people by a what a few do.
> 
> In 2004 someone insisted I tell her why America (re)elected Bush when he is clearly an idiot.  I was expected to know the answer and she did not want to take 'I don't know' for a reply.  I finally stopped replying.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, that has been negated by how the man has been treated over the last 6 years... That to me is a national embarassment.  To let the world know how truely racist and backward a good portion of our electorate is is mortifying.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, I did not use the word ashamed in any of my posts, but embarrassed as people tend to paint a whole nation's people by a what a few do.
> 
> In 2004 someone insisted I tell her why America (re)elected Bush when he is clearly an idiot.  I was expected to know the answer and she did not want to take 'I don't know' for a reply.  I finally stopped replying.
> 
> I did get to feel proud to be American when Obama was elected in 2008 and it was especially sweet since I was living in Uganda at the time and his father was from the country next door. Europe was very impressed with Americans for electing him as well.



"I don't know" is beyond grasping by those who don't know that they don't know.  Obama was elected by the younger generation. I have hope for the future.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Unfortunately, that has been negated by how the man has been treated over the last 6 years... That to me is a national embarassment.  To let the world know how truely racist and backward a good portion of our electorate is is mortifying.



Yes, it is an embarrassment!  And as I see it America is becoming more racist instead of less.  And less tolerant of many things.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> "I don't know" is beyond grasping by those who don't know that they don't know.  Obama was elected by the younger generation. I have hope for the future.



This was a Scottish woman that asked this.


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 23, 2015)

Annie, please enlighten this Canadian. Is it my imagination,or is there a lot more anger/polarization among Americans thanthere was a few years ago? I don't understand.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Annie, please enlighten this Canadian. Is it my imagination,or is there a lot more anger/polarization among Americans thanthere was a few years ago? I don't understand.



Well, since I haven't lived there in 15 years I'm not the best one to answer.  It's what I hear from those who live there or what I read or hear on the news.  But it seems to me that since I've been here (and Bush was 'appointed' prez 8 months after I left) it seems that evangelicals want to run the country and are filled with hate for those not like themselves.  There were mass shootings while I was still there but those have become more numerous, and there weren't open carry laws while I lived there either.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Annie, please enlighten this Canadian. Is it my imagination,or is there a lot more anger/polarization among Americans thanthere was a few years ago? I don't understand.



Yes... very much so..  and I truly believe that it has been orchestrated under the radar by those wishing to gain control of our government... ie.. the billionaire class and large Corporations.   They have used the Evangelical Right and the TeaParty as useful idiots so to speak..  by injecting the social and religious issues into the mix.   Abortion, Gay rights, gun regulations, school prayer.. etc,  have been thrown out as red meat to those unaware that the people with the REAL power, have very little interest in these issues..  What they DO need is VOTES... and to convince the uninformed that by voting for their hand picked candidates... these issues will be addressed.  All the ruling class needs are people who think they are voting for social reform... when in fact they are putting hand picked puppets into power, who will work to do the bidding of the Oligarchs, and eventually destroy them financially.     It is all the more obvious when you consider just fourteen Billionaires are throwing millions upon millions into super PACS to buy elections.    

So in answer to your question... absolutely YES there is a huge divide between Americans now... and it has been intentional.  Pit American against American and they won't notice their way of life is being decimated.   Reminds me of that old joke.. 


A corporate CEO, a public union member, and a teabagger sit around a table. In the center of the table is a plate holding 12 cookies. The CEO takes 11 cookies starts eating them. The teabagger appears puzzled. The CEO leans over and whispers in his ear, “look out for that union guy, he wants part of your cookie…” 

The teabagger pulls out his gun and shoots the union member. “Damned socialist,” he states proudly. “The CEO worked hard for those cookies.”


----------



## Josiah (Apr 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Annie, please enlighten this Canadian. Is it my imagination,or is there a lot more anger/polarization among Americans thanthere was a few years ago? I don't understand.



The polarzation and anger are so pronounced that there is virtually no common ground between the left and the right. If Obama supports something, even if it was originally a Republican idea as in the case of the ACA, the right wing opposes it automatically. Their motive is to not give Obama anything that might be considered a victory.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Again, well-stated QS.  If you run for office, let me know.  I'll vote for you.


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## oldman (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> In other words, forget the facts and listen to my opinion?  I think I'll stick with the actual statistics.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Josiah said:


> The polarzation and anger are so pronounced that there is virtually no common ground between the left and the right. If Obama supports something, even if it was originally a Republican idea as in the case of the ACA, the right wing opposes it automatically. Their motive is to not give Obama anything that might be considered a victory.



This I have definitely picked up on.


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## Shalimar (Apr 23, 2015)

Thanks for explaining things, QuickSilver. It reminds me of the mythological hydra, that no matter now many heads were chopped off, more regenerated. The fight for justice and equality never ends, just wears a new guise.


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## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

I live in New Jersey. Despite all of the noise on the nightly news, from my personal experience, I think things are getting better. We have many Hispanic, Indian, and Oriental people in the area. Eleanor and I used to go to breakfast Sunday mornings and enjoyed watching many racially mixed couples there with their families. All very happy. Hey! Kids are kids, everywhere.
 We have a 100% dedicated Catholic friend, who has mixed marriages in her family that she accepts very well.
 In my personal conversations, I find most people I talk to becoming much more liberal regarding things like gay marriage, assisted suicide, etc. Hate speech is not 20% of what it was not so very long ago.
 I think what's happening, is that there has been a huge and rapid influx of many different ethnic groups. The internet has made for a rapid exchange of views. Many of those were held in secret. People have now discovered how many others held them. "You mean I don't have to hate people because they are different?" 
Many establishment types see their way of life suddenly threatened. As they lose control, they get more and more desperate, and louder and louder in their protests. We are going through an adjustment period, but I think the trend line is in the right direction. 
Having said that, if I could be a Canadian, I would in an instant, but they would have to move the border much further South.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Josiah said:


> The polarzation and anger are so pronounced that there is virtually no common ground between the left and the right. If Obama supports something, even if it was originally a Republican idea as in the case of the ACA, the right wing opposes it automatically. Their motive is to not give Obama anything that might be considered a victory.



Orchestrated again by those wishing to take complete control....  and I may add, fueled by deeply ingrained racism.  It's being used to advance an agenda that is NOT going to bode well for the average American.   I really wish people would wake up to the fact that they are being used to destroy themselves.


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## Shalimar (Apr 23, 2015)

Heyyyy! Underock. It is warmer here on Southern Vancouver Island than where you are!  Wanna be a Canuck? I'll sponsor yah! Lol


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I live in New Jersey. Despite all of the noise on the nightly news, from my personal experience, I think things are getting better. We have many Hispanic, Indian, and Oriental people in the area. Eleanor and I used to go to breakfast Sunday mornings and enjoyed watching many racially mixed couples there with their families. All very happy. Hey! Kids are kids, everywhere.
> We have a 100% dedicated Catholic friend, who has mixed marriages in her family that she accepts very well.
> In my personal conversations, I find most people I talk to becoming much more liberal regarding things like gay marriage, assisted suicide, etc. Hate speech is not 20% of what it was not so very long ago.
> I think what's happening, is that there has been a huge and rapid influx of many different ethnic groups. The internet has made for a rapid exchange of views. Many of those were held in secret. People have now discovered how many others held them. "You mean I don't have to hate people because they are different?"
> ...



You have to remember Underock..  You are in New Jersey.. It's a Northern and a Blue State, despite who your Governor is.   Your experiences are a far cry from those in the deep South and in the Western and Plains States.   They don't see that diversity.. nor do they want to.  It's been portrayed as "UnAmerican" and a threat to their way of life.  Look at how the President has been portrayed..  "not a true American"... Doesn't love America.... not really one of us"  These are very uninformed and insulated people for the most part.  I don't see it getting better, I see them digging in all the harder.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You have to remember Underock..  You are in New Jersey.. It's a Northern and a Blue State, despite who your Governor is.   Your experiences are a far cry from those in the deep South and in the Western and Plains States.   They don't see that diversity.. nor do they want to.  It's been portrayed as "UnAmerican" and a threat to their way of life.  Look at how the President has been portrayed..  "not a true American"... Doesn't love America.... not really one of us"  These are very uninformed and insulated people for the most part.  I don't see it getting better, I see them digging in all the harder.




True.  Try a few years in the bible belt.  I'm surprised I never bit my tongue off!


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> True.  Try a few years in the bible belt.  I'm surprised I never bit my tongue off!


]
What's unfortunate is that the intolerance is being passed on to the younger generation.   Perhaps with the exception of Gay Rights, (which now has support by the majority of Americans)   most of the old prejudices are being passed along.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> ]
> What's unfortunate is that the intolerance is being passed on to the younger generation.   Perhaps with the exception of Gay Rights, (which now has support by the majority of Americans)   most of the old prejudices are being passed along.



I saw that while I lived in TN.  These holier than thou people say gay people can't be christian, or hate the sin not the sinner, and other choice bits of ignorance.  

Is it the majority that are for gay rights?  Or rights but not marriage?  Good to hear anyway.  Of my siblings 2 of us are very pro gay marriage, the other two are for rights and civil partnerships but not marriage.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I saw that while I lived in TN.  These holier than thou people say gay people can't be christian, or hate the sin not the sinner, and other choice bits of ignorance.
> 
> Is it the majority that are for gay rights?  Or rights but not marriage?  Good to hear anyway.  Of my siblings 2 of us are very pro gay marriage, the other two are for rights and civil partnerships but not marriage.



http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reaches-new-high.aspx


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Heyyyy! Underock. It is warmer here on Southern Vancouver Island than where you are!  Wanna be a Canuck? I'll sponsor yah! Lol



But it rains in Vancouver. Try again. Lol


----------



## Jackie22 (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, it is an embarrassment!  And as I see it America is becoming more racist instead of less.  And less tolerant of many things.



I agree, Annie, a good example is the lady elected mayor in Missouri.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> I agree, Annie, a good example is the lady elected mayor in Missouri.



I think the election of a Black president has given this racism a license to be more overt than was possible before.  It is almost encouraged by politicians who use "Dog Whistle" words to incite and inflame the base.  They pick up on it and feel it's ok to show their true colors in the open.  I'm not sure we are MORE racist than before.. just more open and honest about it.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Quicksilver, I don't want to misstate things from recall. If you are inclined, check out "America by the Numbers" on the Web. Its a PBS World Channel series. View the episode,"The Politics of the New South". I think you would find it interesting and, as I did,  surprising. The whole series was great. World Channel has a lot of great stuff. Its the station I go to first now.


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock, FYI, Vancouver is across the water from Southern Vancouver Island where I live. They receive far more rain than we do here. This is not rain forest.


----------



## Jackie22 (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think the election of a Black president has given this racism a license to be more overt than was possible before.  It is almost encouraged by politicians who use "Dog Whistle" words to incite and inflame the base.  They pick up on it and feel it's ok to show their true colors in the open.  I'm not sure we are MORE racist than before.. just more open and honest about it.



That is true, QS, I also think President Obama plays it down, trying to not rock the boat and stir up more racist actions....we have a very intelligent president that has proven himself in spite of all the slander in his face.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Quicksilver, I don't want to misstate things from recall. If you are inclined, check out "America by the Numbers" on the Web. Its a PBS World Channel series. View the episode,"The Politics of the New South". I think you would find it interesting and, as I did,  surprising. The whole series was great. World Channel has a lot of great stuff. Its the station I go to first now.




Thank you..   I did watch it and can only comment that Clarkston Georgia is now over 80% minority.. whereas it used to be 89% white..  There are however thousands of towns that are STILL a majority of Whites.   While becoming fewer, they still exist..  and they will not give up their intolerance and continue to pass it along.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Underock, FYI, Vancouver is across the water from Southern Vancouver Island where I live. They receive far more rain than we do here. This is not rain forest.



I just looked up your weather. 28F, and a heavy snow storm! I thought I could trust Canadians.


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## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Thank you..   I did watch it and can only comment that Clarkston Georgia is now over 80% minority.. whereas it used to be 89% white..  There are however thousands of towns that are STILL a majority of Whites.   While becoming fewer, they still exist..  and they will not give up their intolerance and continue to pass it along.



I don't think we should characterize every town that has a white majority as necessarily racist. There are a lot of people moving into the South from liberally inclined areas of the country. We are like homogenized milk. The skim and the cream are gradually being blended together. Then we throw in varied ingredients from Starbuck's or maybe Hershey syrup and go "umm".
 I agree with you Quicksilver. We ain't there yet. While I hate their music, I pay attention to the attitudes of the younger generation. They don't want any part of this crap. With all of its problems, I thnk the world is an immensely better place than the one that I grew up in. Just the view of someone on the cusp of senility.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I don't think we should characterize every town that has a white majority as necessarily racist. There are a lot of people moving into the South from liberally inclined areas of the country. We are like homogenized milk. The skim and the cream are gradually being blended together. Then we throw in varied ingredients from Starbuck's or maybe Hershey syrup and go "umm".
> I agree with you Quicksilver. We ain't there yet. While I hate their music, I pay attention to the attitudes of the younger generation. They don't want any part of this crap. With all of its problems, I thnk the world is an immensely better place than the one that I grew up in. Just the view of someone on the cusp of senility.



I love your optimism...    Send some this way please..


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> I don't think we should characterize every town that has a white majority as necessarily racist. There are a lot of people moving into the South from liberally inclined areas of the country. We are like homogenized milk. The skim and the cream are gradually being blended together. Then we throw in varied ingredients from Starbuck's or maybe Hershey syrup and go "umm".
> I agree with you Quicksilver. We ain't there yet. While I hate their music, I pay attention to the attitudes of the younger generation. They don't want any part of this crap. With all of its problems, I thnk the world is an immensely better place than the one that I grew up in. Just the view of someone on the cusp of senility.



I guess I am more pessimistic than you, I think the young are "tuning out".  Looking at our polarity, our elitism, open racism I can understand.  If I weren't a battle hardened old fighter, I would tune out also.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm laughing here because all of my life I've had people beating on me for being a pessimist. I prefer to call myself a realist. There are no two people that have ever walked the planet that agree on _everything. _We are after all, the sum of who our parents were, where we were born, when we were born, and whatever experiences life has thrown at us. In order to _fully _understand another person, we would have to _be_ that person. I don't think it is possible to overestimate the effects of the internet. People are talking to each other around the world. Ideas are being exchanged. I think the good ones will prevail.
There _are_ sick, ( and I mean that in the medical sense ), minds, but I think the vast majority of people would agree that its more fun to share a hamburger together, than it is to beat the daylights out of each other over skin color or mystical beliefs.
I remain optimistic.


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

I hope you're right.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I hope you're right.



One of the big pluses of being this old is that it won't matter to me if I'm not.


----------



## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

I often think that then I think of my Grandchildren and Great Granddaughters.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I often think that then I think of my Grandchildren and Great Granddaughters.



Those are the people who are going to make it work, Jim. I congratulate you on having them. Grandkids are the best.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Those are the people who are going to make it work, Jim. I congratulate you on having them. Grandkids are the best.



Yes they are and I worry about my granddaughters futures.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes they are and I worry about my granddaughters futures.



I look at my grandsons and their friends and I see the future. They are one of the reasons I'm optimistic.


----------



## Louis (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes... very much so..  and I truly believe that it has been orchestrated under the radar by those wishing to gain control of our government... ie.. the billionaire class and large Corporations.   They have used the Evangelical Right and the TeaParty as useful idiots so to speak..  by injecting the social and religious issues into the mix.   Abortion, Gay rights, gun regulations, school prayer.. etc,  have been thrown out as red meat to those unaware that the people with the REAL power, have very little interest in these issues..  What they DO need is VOTES... and to convince the uninformed that by voting for their hand picked candidates... these issues will be addressed.  All the ruling class needs are people who think they are voting for social reform... when in fact they are putting hand picked puppets into power, who will work to do the bidding of the Oligarchs, and eventually destroy them financially.     It is all the more obvious when you consider just fourteen Billionaires are throwing millions upon millions into super PACS to buy elections.
> 
> So in answer to your question... absolutely YES there is a huge divide between Americans now... and it has been intentional.  Pit American against American and they won't notice their way of life is being decimated.   Reminds me of that old joke..
> 
> ...



A _thorough and well written explanation of why I consider Rush Limbaugh and his ilk to be the most dangerous people in the world. 
_


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Louis, I taught her everything she knows!!  *looking to see if he buys that line*


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Louis, I taught her everything she knows!!  *looking to see if he buys that line*


...And I'll bet she was your top student.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Louis said:


> ...And I'll bet she was your top student.



If you call spitballs at the back of my head when I faced the blackboard "top", then she sure was, Louis.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> If you call spitballs at the back of my head when I faced the blackboard "top", then she sure was, Louis.


I'm not a bit surprised, Jim.


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## oakapple (Apr 24, 2015)

I posted "what an enjoyable thread"on the very first page just a few comments down, and then went away for a few days. phew! it was an ironic comment, not for anyone to take it seriously.But as Ameriscot says, yes, actually we do sometimes get fed up with all this 'leader of the free world' stuff.AZ Jim never intended it to be a thread about hating your own country, just one for all of to think about times we are ashamed of what the government has done/decided to do.Surely nobody thinks they get it right all of the time?there are also many many countries where people are free to speak out, and practise their religion not just the U.S.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2015)

Thank you OA.  You understood.


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## BobF (Apr 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Many feel that by pointing out anything negative about America makes you anti-American.  I was born here, I was educated here, I  enlisted in our military, I took the oath to defend us against all enemies foreign and domestic but damn it we are fallible.  And I also don't like the attitude that we are the "worlds leader" or that the President of the US is also the "Leader of the free world".



You are absolutely right with this comment.    And we proved it by electing Obama to be our President.   Twice.  But less margin on the second election.   Those comments you complained about have been corrected by Obama.


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