# Do we really “trust in God”?



## Aneeda72 (Jan 8, 2021)

Do we really trust in God or do we hedge our bets?  God gave us free will so is GOD saying trust yourself, my work is done here?  Or do we trust ourselves and hedge our bets by also trusting in God?  

What do YOU think?


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## Pepper (Jan 8, 2021)

There is no God.


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## officerripley (Jan 8, 2021)

I don't believe in god or any form of the supernatural. I do know and like and love people who do believe in all that and that is of course their right just as it's my right not to. What does bother me, though (and it seems to be happening more or maybe I'm just noticing it more), is that a lot of people (here in the U.S. anyway) think (and say it even, like on a lot of well-known pastors, reverands, etc. websites) that since there is a god and he's a dictator and doesn't run the universe as a democracy, then nothing here on earth should be run as a democracy. As one relig. gal said to a reporter that the pastor of her church had told her to not worry one bit about if something was unconstitutional or not, that the only thing she should be reading is the Bible. That scares me immensely.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 8, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I don't believe in god or any form of the supernatural. I do know and like and love people who do believe in all that and that is of course their right just as it's my right not to. What does bother me, though (and it seems to be happening more or maybe I'm just noticing it more), is that a lot of people (here in the U.S. anyway) think (and say it even, like on a lot of well-known pastors, reverands, etc. websites) that since there is a god and he's a dictator and doesn't run the universe as a democracy, then nothing here on earth should be run as a democracy. As one relig. gal said to a reporter that the pastor of her church had told her to not worry one bit about if something was unconstitutional or not, that the only thing she should be reading is the Bible. That scares me immensely.


The only thing someone should read is the Bible?. That’s nuts.  God didn’t even write the Bible a bunch of old men with bad memories did.  I believe in God, it doesn’t bother me that you don’t believe in God.

I was in the USWAC, so I swore a never ending oath to the constitution of the USofA.


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## Gaer (Jan 8, 2021)

These statements are made from incomplete knowledge.  Yes, They have surpassed the "dogmas' of specific religions to claim their "identity beliefs" but human intellect is not a adaquate judge of what exists or does not exist, of right and wrong, because reasoning has it's limitations.  and because the scope of vision of the human mind is restricted in comparison to the unlimited field of influence of action of the entire cosmos.
We think only from an awareness of what is in our relative field of comprehension.


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## win231 (Jan 8, 2021)

Atheist here, but I find nothing wrong with whatever gives people comfort.  Some people need to have faith in something.


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## Pepper (Jan 8, 2021)




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## officerripley (Jan 8, 2021)

win231 said:


> Atheist here, but I find nothing wrong with whatever gives people comfort.  Some people need to have faith in something.


True, but I wish more people had "faith" in knowledge, learning, and science.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 8, 2021)

people are where they are at spiritually or otherwise based on personal preference. There are many ways to go only you can decide where you want to go.


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## Sunny (Jan 8, 2021)

The only reason people "trust" or believe in a deity is that someone else told them to. It's completely trust in what some other human being said, using going back thousands of years.  And the details depend on what family a person was born or adopted into. In other words, most people are told what they must believe, because their family believes it.

If religion didn't exist, there would probably be a sense of wonder, but that's all.  Or maybe a new concept would arise, closer to the truth than the usual portrayal of God.


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## fmdog44 (Jan 8, 2021)

Pepper said:


> There is no God.


Prove it


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 8, 2021)

If trusting in God means having faith, then I trust in God. I trust or have faith that Saturday will be Saturday and so forth. The law of attractions show you reap what you sow. Choices set into motion and identify who we are in the world. The items and people we choose to be with attract people and circumstances with similar interests


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## fmdog44 (Jan 8, 2021)

Until I can create a universe like ours I'll hold off on judgement about a creator.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 8, 2021)

It is simple; if you believe there is a God, then for you there is a God. Should you come to other conclusions later, for you, that will be true.


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## Nathan (Jan 8, 2021)

I believe in God, but quite frankly I don't give a $h!t if other people don't.    I'm definitely against religious people  trying to shove their religion down other people's throats, or try to fashion our legal system to dictate their beliefs to the Nation.


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## horseless carriage (Jan 8, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I don't believe in god or any form of the supernatural. I do know and like and love people who do believe in all that and that is of course their right just as it's my right not to. What does bother me, though (and it seems to be happening more or maybe I'm just noticing it more), is that a lot of people (here in the U.S. anyway) think (and say it even, like on a lot of well-known pastors, reverands, etc. websites) that since there is a god and he's a dictator and doesn't run the universe as a democracy, then nothing here on earth should be run as a democracy. As one relig. gal said to a reporter that the pastor of her church had told her to not worry one bit about if something was unconstitutional or not, that the only thing she should be reading is the Bible. That scares me immensely.


There's a huge difference between believing in a Deity and an organised religion. That I know from the experience of being raised in the Roman Catholic Church. I won't go into the faults and downright hypocritical practices of Catholicism, they are well documented, but despite all that, the reason why I believe in a God is, and the Catholic Church won't like this because it's not in their teaching of faith, nobody can explain why we exist, or more precisely, how we came to exist. 

Science tells me that the universe started with a big bang. When I ask how that happened I'm told that it was by gases. OK, how did the gases exist? That question usually gets the exasperated look of despair, but it never gets answered. Science also tells us that infinity is impossible, (God is infinite,) but the universe is also infinite, it has to be, otherwise why doesn't it fall into the void at the end of the universe?

Society has become more and more secular and I think that's because of organised religious faiths. When the AIDS virus struck you heard that it was God's punishment, or God's wrath. Since when did mortals have a hotline to God? It's about as believable as war. How many times, down through the centuries has God created war? You think I'm making it up? Man's battle cry has, so many times been: "In God's name, charge." Little wonder that so many dismiss God as a fairy story, who can blame them?


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## gennie (Jan 8, 2021)

As with most things, I trust but verify.


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## mellowyellow (Jan 8, 2021)

We can find fault with many of today's religions, but it means so much to so many and if it helps to bring an assurance that everything will be okay, then it’s a good thing.


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## horseless carriage (Jan 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> We can find fault with many of today's religions, but it means so much to so many and if it helps to bring an assurance that everything will be okay, then it’s a good thing.


That sentiment I can readily agree with. It's why I remain a Catholic. The church has it's faults, but then again, so do I.


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## Chet (Jan 8, 2021)

Gaer said:


> We think only from an awareness of what is in our relative field of comprehension.


That's one of the most profound statements I have heard in a while. Man's concept of God is like a dog's concept of his master. Awareness has limits and you must consider the observer.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 8, 2021)

Finding fault is what we do best


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## Sassycakes (Jan 8, 2021)

*I don't mind the words in God we trust being on the money. What I would like to finally see is a Women's face on the money. There were and are many good women and they deserve to have their face on it.*


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## CinnamonSugar (Jan 8, 2021)

I believe in God, I love God and I want to trust Him.  Being transparent, I'll admit that I'm struggling right now.  After this year, dealing with COVID and the pressures that added to my work as an RN, being sick with the virus (recovering, thank goodness), I am tired mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually.  

Added to all this, there is an additional, unforeseen rigamarole with getting my RN license renewed in a timely manner.  I have been on the phone, trying to get things straightened out (and it will get straighten out, I'm sure) today but right now I feel like pulling my hair out.

And I ask myself, "where is your trust in God?"  All I can say is to say what the very honest man in the Gospels said:  "I believe; help my unbelief."


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 8, 2021)

CinnamonSugar said:


> I believe in God, I love God and I want to trust Him.  Being transparent, I'll admit that I'm struggling right now.  After this year, dealing with COVID and the pressures that added to my work as an RN, being sick with the virus (recovering, thank goodness), I am tired mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually.
> 
> Added to all this, there is an additional, unforeseen rigamarole with getting my RN license renewed in a timely manner.  I have been on the phone, trying to get things straightened out (and it will get straighten out, I'm sure) today but right now I feel like pulling my hair out.
> 
> And I ask myself, "where is your trust in God?"  All I can say is to say what the very honest man in the Gospels said:  "I believe; help my unbelief."


I am sorry


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## Warrigal (Jan 8, 2021)

Faith and belief are different concepts. Belief is a lot to do with the mind. Faith is something much deeper and involves trust.

Do I believe that every word of scripture is literally true? I do not because I am an educated woman with a scientific background and I am not living in the first millennium AD.

Do I have faith in God, I do because I have felt the call of something that exists within me and also outside of me. I now have some understanding of what theologians refer to as the immanence and the emanence of God. I answered that call and have entered into a relationship with the inexplicable and that is what faith is all about. It is about where we place our trust.

Some of us trust ourselves beyond all else, only at some time, to find that like Nebchadnezzar's statue, we too have feet of clay. Some place their faith in wealth and material possessions, others in charismatic leaders, or knowledge and science. It is in the end our choice and we have many opportunities as we age to switch our trust to something else. When that happens it is a moment of conversion.

As I child I had an infant's faith in the goodness of my parents and later in Jesus as described in Sunday school. As a teen I began to doubt the authority of the bible and fell in love with science. That was my first conversion - from faith in God to absolute faith in science.

Science has its place in answering questions relating to the material universe but is sorely lacking when it come to philosophical and existential questions. I found this out and discovered the feet of clay of my beloved science when I encountered personal tragedy and found a deep emptiness inside me. Still, I clung to my faith in science, above all else.

Without going into details because some things cannot be easily expressed, my second conversion came at the age of 33. It did not take place under the influence of any church or preacher. It happened during a teachers' inservice course that was taking place in a hotel/motel. There was a moment when something inside me called out and something outside me answered in a most unexpected way. Science would say it was my psyche (is that actually a scientific term?) talking to itself. My rational brain was puzzled to say the least. A few days later I felt/heard God call me by name.

From that day on I have ceased trying to be my own master, blundering my way through life. I voluntarily placed myself in the hands of God and now concentrate on becoming more loving, more accepting of my fellow humans, more forgiving and more generous and a lot less fearful. Am I perfect? Certainly not. I remain a flawed human being but I try to follow The Way that Jesus preached and have come to know great peace of mind and heart.

I still love science but my faith is in something greater.


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## RadishRose (Jan 8, 2021)

IMO, God is science and mathematics is his language.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 9, 2021)

In 2005, surrendered everything to God as I know Him to be. The Holy Spirit and I became one. God lives within me, I am under His care and protection, I am forgiven. 

Whatever happens in life and the world does not matter in comparison with my relationship to God. 

In my opinion, humans, think too highly of themselves to realize they are animals too. Like the fish and the insects we are born to live out specific roles in life some are perceived more important than others, BUT so called important roles cannot be played without the support and backing of so called less important roles. 

There are no minor roles in life, the mighty and great are equal the meek and mild because they are one in the same carrying out the roles they are given.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jan 9, 2021)

Aneeda, what do you mean by "trusting in God"?  I'm not sure what that is. Can you give some examples? Thanks.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 9, 2021)

It pre-supposes that 'God ' is in control of everything that happens. Are there still people/children who actually believe that?


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## Jeni (Jan 9, 2021)

I think people get off track by trying to further divide by those who  believe or those who don't ........ They do this by asserting that if you think one way you also think .......other things... often by characterizing with some extreme example..
People seem to be more narrow minded and judgmental then ever so sad yet another item people went into an us vs them mode.  ..... 
I never saw belief as an all or nothing proposition ....... is there anything people won't use as a divide.......
People seldom pay attention to a tiny thing printed on something especially as we are often directed to use other forms of  electronic payment ......all about data collection they can't track your cash purchases......

Only when someone gets their panties in a bunch and want to make a argument out of anything and everything....... 
I honestly think people are bored with their lives and only feel alive by creating drama .............and arguing about literally ANYTHING.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 9, 2021)

Jeni, you're right about people being bored and looking for anything to cause a stir. In the past, people were too busy just trying to survive. They left the thinking to those who had time for it.


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## rgp (Jan 9, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Prove it




 Prove that there is.


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## chic (Jan 9, 2021)

Yes, I believe in God but I'm not always comfortable trusting Him the way some do. He gave us brains for a reason. But when I am overwhelmed in life, which has been frequently lately, I find myself leaning on God more than myself.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 9, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Aneeda, what do you mean by "trusting in God"?  I'm not sure what that is. Can you give some examples? Thanks.


I suppose when people actually say I put it in Gods hands or I trust God to save me or I trust God to help.  If you are jumping off a roof, would you trust God to catch you?  Jehovah Witness trust God to a certain extent or leave the faith.  There is another religion, forget the name, which interact with snakes they trust God or leave the faith.

My point is there is a difference in trusting in God and believing, and having faith in God.  I have faith in God.  I believe in God.  And this applies to the Trinity as well.  But I trust no one, and as I read the “who do you trust thread” and Buckeye’s should we remove “trust in God from the money”, I wondered who really trusts God?

I apparently don’t trust God.  I believe God gave us free will and expects us to trust ourselves.  So, it’s extremely interesting that most everyone talks about belief, love, and faith; but not trust.  @fuzzybuddy *thanks so much for asking.  I think you noticed, on the thread, for the most part the issue of trusting God, has been ignored.  Very interesting, don’t you think?*


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 9, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> It pre-supposes that 'God ' is in control of everything that happens. Are there still people/children who actually believe that?


There actually are people, children, and full grown educated adults that believe this.  I am not one of them.


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## grahamg (Jan 9, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> There actually are people, children, and full grown educated adults that believe this.  I am not one of them.


Its a complex subject obviously, and in some churches you might hear the view expressed, "If we say there is a God, then there is a God", (or words to that effect, which must sound like heresy to other religious groups?).
I'll settle for a very intangible belief, but nonetheless significant, hard to sum up, and full of contradictions, (a good thing my mother said). I admire those who can live what we'd think of as devoted religious lives, where they put their own interests, or selfish desires so much to one side in order to help others.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 9, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Prove it


That's not how it works. You can't prove a negative. Prove there is a God.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 9, 2021)

I'm open to belief in a God, but have no belief in any organized religion. 
Is there something after this life? Could be.


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## grahamg (Jan 9, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I'm open to belief in a God, but have no belief in any organized religion.
> Is there something after this life? Could be.


You'd be happy enough with the friendships and "fellowships" often developed or shared in churches though I imagine, or nothing against them(?).


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## Irwin (Jan 9, 2021)

I trust physics. Maybe we should have "IN PHYSICS WE TRUST" on our money, although that would be a misnomer since we can't trust our currency that much. Maybe having "IN GOD WE TRUST" is perfect for our money because it's meaningless, and there is no guarantee money is going to be worth anything in the future when our economy comes crashing down from all the debt.


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## MarciKS (Jan 9, 2021)




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## grahamg (Jan 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I trust physics. Maybe we should have "IN PHYSICS WE TRUSCeT" on our money, although that would be a misnomer since we can't trust our currency that much. Maybe having "IN GOD WE TRUST" is perfect for our money because it's meaningless, and there is no guarantee money is going to be worth anything in the future when our economy comes crashing down from all the debt.


Given the level of uncertainty inherent in quantum physics you'd struggle to get much comfort in physics alone, but I think I know what you mean too.


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## Warrigal (Jan 9, 2021)

I too have studied physics, as well as chemistry, mathematics and geology. None of them were any help to me when I sat by the bed of my younger sister who had just delivered her first child as a still born. I had nothing. I was an empty shell. I could not speak. 

Atheism can be very inadequate at times like this but I persisted in my belief that there is no higher being and that the only verities are scientific ones. I was wrong.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 9, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I too have studied physics, as well as chemistry, mathematics and geology. None of them were any help to me when I sat by the bed of my younger sister who had just delivered her first child as a still born. I had nothing. I was an empty shell. I could not speak.
> 
> Atheism can be very inadequate at times like this but I persisted in my belief that there is no higher being and that the only verities are scientific ones. I was wrong.


That's a terrible tragedy for any woman to suffer, especially her first. Nothing you can say can assuage the grief and disappointment. I hope she was allowed to hold the baby and they had a proper funeral.


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## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

> That's a terrible tragedy for any woman to suffer, especially her first. Nothing you can say can assuage the grief and disappointment. I hope she was allowed to hold the baby and they had a proper funeral.



As her older sister, I already had two healthy children. Her first pregnancy ended when she started to bleed at 30 weeks. It was placenta previa but the doctors tried to keep the baby in utero. He died and she had to endure the birth process knowing that she was not delivering a live baby.

I don't think she even saw him. He was not named, nor given a funeral. His remains were taken care of by the hospital, along with all of the other medical waste. She was told to go home and prepare for a second pregnancy.

Her second baby was also premature, delivered at 28 weeks but she survived although she stopped breathing three times. She was baptised in the humicrib by a catholic priest. The nurses took the leftover holy water and added it to the humicrib water. I thought this to be quite superstitious but I was glad that they did it. I visited the hospital and was allowed to look at my tiny niece in the nursery on the other side of a glass window. I could not pray. Atheists have nothing and no-one to pray to. I stood at the window with all of my fingers crossed and muttered "Hang in there, Kiddo". Pathetic really, but God hears even prayers as roughly constructed as mine was.

Later I heard that the students of a local Catholic school were praying for my sister and the baby. I was grateful but still thought that prayers are wasted effort.

Paradoxically, while still a convinced atheist, I applied for and secured a position in that same school as a maths/science teacher. Don't tell me that this was just a co-incidence. It was in my second year at this school that I went on the in-service that I described elsewhere. I stayed at that school for the next 25 years of my life, and my previous emptiness was filled with something that has sustained me ever since. It is called Love, with a capital L.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I too have studied physics, as well as chemistry, mathematics and geology. None of them were any help to me when I sat by the bed of my younger sister who had just delivered her first child as a still born. I had nothing. I was an empty shell. I could not speak.
> 
> Atheism can be very inadequate at times like this but I persisted in my belief that there is no higher being and that the only verities are scientific ones. I was wrong.


Your sister had you  for support and love.  YOU were what she needed at that time, not an invisible GOD.  As the mother of 3 infants who died, as a person who believes in GOD, (and no offense meant), my sons and your sister’s baby had GOD.  IMO.

I am so sorry for your sister loss.  I know her never ending pain.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> That's a terrible tragedy for any woman to suffer, especially her first. Nothing you can say can assuage the grief and disappointment. I hope she was allowed to hold the baby and they had a proper funeral.


Hmm, I am not sure what a proper funeral is and why on earth it would matter.

My newborn was born and immediately transferred to a children’s hospital in an effort to save his life.  He was born on Christmas Day and died three days later.  I held him inside me, I didn’t need to hold him in “my arms”, and I didn’t.  I was fighting my own battle for my life.

I never even saw a picture of him.  In the ‘60s, this was standard practice.  We had a “proper funeral”.  A small white casket that looked liked a styrofoam cooler.  In fact, I asked my husband if it was a cooler and had to touch it to reassure myself it was not.  We were so poor on those days.

No one went to the proper funeral but us.

In retrospect, I wish I had done cremation as I could have keep him with us until we settled in our forever “state”.  I inquired once about moving him here only to be told there was nothing to move.  I am unsure if this is true.  Now, that I am older, I am unsure if I want to disturb his resting place, probably not.

But I know this.  It was the bodies of my sons that died, not their souls.  Those boys live as long as I remember them, and I remember them every single day.  Nothing else matters.


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## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

The baby was dispatched without ceremony in the hospital furnace. Because he had never drawn breath his birth was not registered. Legally he never existed. Procedures were very uncaring back then. My sister has never forgotten him though because, as you have said, he was once alive within her body.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> The baby was dispatched without ceremony in the hospital furnace. Because he had never drawn breath his birth was not registered. Legally he never existed. Procedures were very uncaring back then. My sister has never forgotten him though because, as you have said, he was once alive within her body.


Anyone who had a miscarriage had their baby ”disposed” of in the same way no matter what the age of the fetus. I also had a couple of miscarriages which is how I know.  We have come a long way since then.


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## Damaged Goods (Jan 10, 2021)

I’m RC Christian and believe that he showed the way to conduct ourselves and TRUST that he will judge us accordingly, if that’s what you mean.

I TRUST that he’ll always forgive those who are repentant. He knows that we are imperfect. Do your best to do the right thing, I believe, is his motto.

Sound simplistic and juvenile?  Sorry 'bout that.

He obviously does not get involved in what transpires in the world, otherwise you wouldn’t see all the misery, tragedy, natural disasters, birth defects, unfairness, his own priests abusing children….


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## MarciKS (Jan 10, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> It pre-supposes that 'God ' is in control of everything that happens. Are there still people/children who actually believe that?


I do but I also am aware that Satan is at work in the tragic situations. I believe that it's his job to make God look bad. I believe God is a loving God and that he will take care of his children. I don't care for organized religion or the people in it. I have a bible and my faith. That's all I need.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Damaged Goods said:


> I’m RC Christian and believe that he showed the way to conduct ourselves and TRUST that he will judge us accordingly, if that’s what you mean.
> 
> I TRUST that he’ll always forgive those who are repentant. He knows that we are imperfect. Do your best to do the right thing, I believe, is his motto.
> 
> ...


They are not “his own priests“.  They are pedophiles which became FALSE priests in order to have access to children, just like Boy Scout leaders, teachers, social workers, foster parents and on and on and on.

I do not know what an RC Christian is.  I believe God gets involved in the world, just not in a manner we may recognize or want.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> I do but I also am aware that Satan is at work in the tragic situations. I believe that it's his job to make God look bad. I believe God is a loving God and that he will take care of his children. I don't care for organized religion or the people in it. I have a bible and my faith. That's all I need.


I don’t believe it’s Satan’s job to make God look bad.  I think Satan is busy corrupting the world and doing a good job of it.  I doubt Satan gives God any thought at all.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> The baby was dispatched without ceremony in the hospital furnace. Because he had never drawn breath his birth was not registered. Legally he never existed. Procedures were very uncaring back then. My sister has never forgotten him though because, as you have said, he was once alive within her body.


Yes, I understand that a still-born is regarded as nothing more than dead flesh. There is the belief that a baby is not considered alive until it has drawn its first breath. I really don't understand that. When the baby first starts moving in the womb, it is referred to as 'quickening'. It is the difference between 'the quick and the dead', and taken as a sign that the baby is alive and 'kicking'.
This is an area which really needs to be clarified.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> As her older sister, I already had two healthy children. Her first pregnancy ended when she started to bleed at 30 weeks. It was placenta previa but the doctors tried to keep the baby in utero. He died and she had to endure the birth process knowing that she was not delivering a live baby.
> 
> I don't think she even saw him. He was not named, nor given a funeral. His remains were taken care of by the hospital, along with all of the other medical waste. She was told to go home and prepare for a second pregnancy.
> 
> ...


I'm an agnostic....I'm still open to being convinced one way or the other. However, I do believe in the power of prayer. All is energy and strong, positive thinking can bring about change...it has been proved. So never think that prayer is wasted.


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## Gary O' (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Do we really trust in God or do we hedge our bets? God gave us free will so is GOD saying trust yourself, my work is done here? Or do we trust ourselves and hedge our bets by also trusting in God?
> 
> What do YOU think?


I trust Him more than myself
I know Him
He knows me

He's worked too much in my life to not know Him


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## Damaged Goods (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They are not “his own priests“.  They are pedophiles which became FALSE priests in order to have access to children, just like Boy Scout leaders, teachers, social workers, foster parents and on and on and on.
> 
> I do not know what an RC Christian is.  I believe God gets involved in the world, just not in a manner we may recognize or want.


Actually they took the sacrament of Holy Orders of the RC (Roman Catholic) faith and so are his priests just as a Christian minister is one of his ministers.

You think that a "priest" is only someone who lives a perfect life?  No one lives a perfect life.  As priests, I believe that their pedophilia will be judged more harshly.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 10, 2021)

Damaged Goods said:


> He obviously does not get involved in what transpires in the world, otherwise you wouldn’t see all the misery, tragedy, natural disasters, birth defects, unfairness, his own priests abusing children….



I wondered why 'he' just seems to sit back and watch Covid-19 ravage the world.


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## Irwin (Jan 10, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I'm an agnostic....I'm still open to being convinced one way or the other. However, I do believe in the power of prayer. All is energy and strong, positive thinking can bring about change...it has been proved. So never think that prayer is wasted.



It's kind of a placebo effect; if you believe it's helping you, your body's natural healing responses will kick in, including brain chemicals that kill pain or make us feel good. And there's nothing wrong with that. Positive thinking is a powerful antidote.


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## Irwin (Jan 10, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Given the level of uncertainty inherent in quantum physics you'd struggle to get much comfort in physics alone, but I think I know what you mean too.



I don't know much about quantum physics, but the general laws of physics can be relied upon and apply throughout the universe.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Damaged Goods said:


> Actually they took the sacrament of Holy Orders of the RC (Roman Catholic) faith and so are his priests just as a Christian minister is one of his ministers.
> 
> You think that a "priest" is only someone who lives a perfect life?  No one lives a perfect life.  As priests, I believe that their pedophilia will be judged more harshly.


We agree to disagree.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> I wondered why 'he' just seems to sit back and watch Covid-19 ravage the world.


Perhaps because the virus is a part of Mother Nature, a natural event as  are droughts, foods, birth defects, etc.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jan 10, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> I do but I also am aware that Satan is at work in the tragic situations. I believe that it's his job to make God look bad. I believe God is a loving God and that he will take care of his children. I don't care for organized religion or the people in it. I have a bible and my faith. That's all I need


If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


----------



## Pepper (Jan 10, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


There's not.  
"No hell below us, Above us only sky."


----------



## chic (Jan 10, 2021)

Damaged Goods said:


> I’m RC Christian and believe that he showed the way to conduct ourselves and TRUST that he will judge us accordingly, if that’s what you mean.holic
> 
> I TRUST that he’ll always forgive those who are repentant. He knows that we are imperfect. Do your best to do the right thing, I believe, is his motto.
> 
> ...


By RC do you mean Roman Catholic? 

I believe in God and in miracles because I have personally experienced them. I also believe in angels. Call me crazy if you're an atheist.

"You don't believe in God, because you do not know him." Leo Tolstoy.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 10, 2021)

You are not crazy chic.


----------



## Oris Borloff (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t believe it’s Satan’s job to make God look bad.  I think Satan is busy corrupting the world and doing a good job of it.  I doubt Satan gives God any thought at all.


Aneeda,  I'm only curious here... Did you ever think of Satan less as a corrupter, but more of a vulture?  By that I mean , the world is corrupt ,and  he/she, it, is just cleaning up the mess left behind?  I find this stuff interesting, but don't really accept it as being a truth of existence.  Please understand , I am not intend to offend, but your comments piqued my curiosity.


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I don't know much about quantum physics, but the general laws of physics can be relied upon and apply throughout the universe.


Nor me, but quantum physics disconcerted Einstein because it postulates chance plays a part in physics, (I'll try to come back with a better explanation), but as you say the rules do appear to apply throughout the universe, unless theories start to break down at the extremes if memory serves me correctly.


----------



## Damaged Goods (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> We agree to disagree.


That's OK; you're still a delightful person.


----------



## Damaged Goods (Jan 10, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> I wondered why 'he' just seems to sit back and watch Covid-19 ravage the world.


Ever hear of the  black plague or bubonic plague or whatever it's called?


----------



## Oris Borloff (Jan 10, 2021)

Grahamg,  If memory serves me correctly --which is highly questionable, didn't Einstein dismiss much of quantum theory???, Please keep in mind, the my understanding of the subject is less than that of most household pets.


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Grahamg,  If memory serves me correctly --which is highly questionable, didn't Einstein dismiss much of quantum theory???, Please keep in mind, the my understanding of the subject is less than that of most household pets.


He resisted it certainly, but as time has gone on more evidence has come forth backing up quantum physics, and many devices we use today are said to be only possible because scientists used it in their work.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Damaged Goods said:


> That's OK; you're still a delightful person.


And so are you


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Aneeda,  I'm only curious here... Did you ever think of Satan less as a corrupter, but more of a vulture?  By that I mean , the world is corrupt ,and  he/she, it, is just cleaning up the mess left behind?  I find this stuff interesting, but don't really accept it as being a truth of existence.  Please understand , I am not intend to offend, but your comments piqued my curiosity.


It’s hard to offend me, I really am open minded.  .  And I find this stuff extremely interesting as well.  But, IMO, Satan is a corrupter.  It is God that cleans up Satan‘s messes, judging who is worthy and who is unworthy, giving forgiveness to us all.  Can the corrupted person be redeemed?, of course, and easily, IMO.

Sincere heart felt prayers for forgiveness, the old “ask and you shall receive” or an act of redemption, or other methods which don’t come to mind.  Also, I suppose the forgiveness of someone you wronged would weight heavily in your favor.  I believe there is something about there are many paths to heaven in the Bible, just as their are many paths in hell.

There, of course, is no proof of existence, there is faith and belief.  Do I trust the sun will rise tomorrow?  Nope.  But I believe the sun will rise tomorrow.  Do I believe everyone goes to heaven?  Yes, I do.  Because hell, is here, now.  We are living in hell.

@Oris Borloff


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

You'll like this taken from a Methodist website:
"A visiting pastor attended a men's breakfast in the middle of a rural farming area of
the country.

The group had asked an older farmer, decked out in bib overalls, to say grace for the
morning breakfast.

"Lord, I hate buttermilk", the farmer began. The visiting pastor opened one eye to

glance at the farmer and wondered where this was going. The farmer loudly

proclaimed, "Lord, I hate lard." Now the pastor was growing concerned. Without

missing a beat, the farmer continued, "And Lord, you know I don't much care for raw

white flour". The pastor once again opened an eye to glance around the room and

saw that he wasn't the only one to feel uncomfortable.

Then the farmer added, "But Lord, when you mix them all together and bake them, I

do love warm fresh biscuits. So Lord, when things come up that we don't like, when

life gets hard, when we don't understand what you're saying to us, help us to just

relax and wait until you are done mixing. It will probably be even better than biscuits.
Amen."

Stay strong, my friends, because our LORD is mixing several things that we don't
really care for, but something even better is around the bend."


----------



## Oris Borloff (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> It’s hard to offend me, I really am open minded.  .  And I find this stuff extremely interesting as well.  But, IMO, Satan is a corrupter.  It is God that cleans up Satan‘s messes, judging who is worthy and who is unworthy, giving forgiveness to us all.  Can the corrupted person be redeemed?, of course, and easily, IMO.
> 
> Sincere heart felt prayers for forgiveness, the old “ask and you shall receive” or an act of redemption, or other methods which don’t come to mind.  Also, I suppose the forgiveness of someone you wronged would weight heavily in your favor.  I believe there is something about there are many paths to heaven in the Bible, just as their are many paths in hell.
> 
> ...


Alas, often, I have to agree with your last two sentences.


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I don't know much about quantum physics, but the general laws of physics can be relied upon and apply throughout the universe.


Here is something to go on as we try to understand our universe:

"*Seven Essential Elements of Quantum Physics*

Particles are waves, and vice versa. ...
*Quantum* states are discrete. ...
Probability is all we ever know. ...
Measurement determines reality. ...
*Quantum* correlations are non-local. ...
Everything not forbidden is mandatory. ...
*Quantum physics* is not magic.
Plus this to blow your mind:
"*Quantum theory* describes the behavior of things — particles or energy — on the smallest scale. ... Also *weird*: Thanks to *quantum theory*, scientists have shown how pairs of particles can be linked — even if they're on different sides of the room or opposite sides of the universe."


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

grahamg said:


> You'll like this taken from a Methodist website:
> "A visiting pastor attended a men's breakfast in the middle of a rural farming area of
> the country.
> 
> ...


An interesting metaphor. As someone with a Methodist background, although the English tradition rather than the US one, I can relate to this story. It reminds us that different people have very different interpretations of religious themes and that all are invited into the Kingdom regardless of education level or intellect. There is a story, that I am unable to find right now, about Charles Wesley and an uneducated lay preacher who kept referring to Jesus as the 'oyster man'. If anyone can find it it is worth thinking about.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Here is something to go on as we try to understand our universe:
> 
> "*Seven Essential Elements of Quantum Physics*
> 
> ...


Quantum mechanics is essential to understanding chemical reactions and the calculations we use to calculate yields and reaction rates. It is not very useful when we want to understand human nature and important existential questions.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


Because Satan is an angel kicked out of heaven by God.  He was already judged.  What could be worst then having obtained heaven and losing it.  Being destroyed would be a relief.  God the father is one mean entity.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Quantum mechanics is essential to understanding chemical reactions and the calculations we use to calculate yields and reaction rates. It is not very useful when we want to understand human nature and important existential questions.


I can barely remember even the basic maths soooo quantum science could be a candy bar as far as I know.  Oh, gosh. I also want a candy bar, but, then, I want my A1C lower as well.  . See what all this talk about quantum has done.  Now I am sad.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 10, 2021)

The belief in God as an all-powerful being who is really interested and controlling every event in our tiny lives, while (in the meantime) running the rest of the unimaginably huge universe... this God being at all threatened by Satan, is an attempt to explain the evil and tragedy in the world. There is no way we can believe we are protected by a loving Father up there, while enduring the level of human tragedies that people live with every day. So Satan had to be invented.

I've never understood why, after a natural disaster, when people manage to survive and their families are OK, they thank God and call it a miracle. But what about the family next door, perfectly innocent people, who were wiped out by the same disaster?  Where does God fit in there?

So then we get back to the book of Job, as usual.

The fact is, we don't know anything, really, we don't understand why good and bad things happen, if there even is a "why."  All the religious explanations are attempts to make sense of the unexplainable.

And the fairy tales in the Bible, while some of them are whopping good tales, make no sense at all.  God wanted to free the Jews in Egypt from slavery, so he inflicted 10 horrible plagues on Egypt and produced miracles like the parting of the Red Sea to allow the Jews to run across, but then He put the water back so the Egyptian soldiers drowned?  Why didn't he just stop allowing the Egyptians to make other human beings slaves to begin with?


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 10, 2021)

Sunny said:


> The belief in God as an all-powerful being who is really interested and controlling every event in our tiny lives, while (in the meantime) running the rest of the unimaginably huge universe... this God being at all threatened by Satan, is an attempt to explain the evil and tragedy in the world. There is no way we can believe we are protected by a loving Father up there, while enduring the level of human tragedies that people live with every day. So Satan had to be invented.
> 
> I've never understood why, after a natural disaster, when people manage to survive and their families are OK, they thank God and call it a miracle. But what about the family next door, perfectly innocent people, who were wiped out by the same disaster?  Where does God fit in there?
> 
> ...


Man invented 'God' because he needed someone to hold responsible for everything that happens. He needed to believe that there is someone in charge, someone with a masterplan, who has a reason for allowing all unpleasant things to happen.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Sunny said:


> The belief in God as an all-powerful being who is really interested and controlling every event in our tiny lives, while (in the meantime) running the rest of the unimaginably huge universe... this God being at all threatened by Satan, is an attempt to explain the evil and tragedy in the world. There is no way we can believe we are protected by a loving Father up there, while enduring the level of human tragedies that people live with every day. So Satan had to be invented.
> 
> I've never understood why, after a natural disaster, when people manage to survive and their families are OK, they thank God and call it a miracle. But what about the family next door, perfectly innocent people, who were wiped out by the same disaster?  Where does God fit in there?
> 
> ...


You might be, IMO, confusing the God of the Old Testament-God the Father, with Jesus Christ.  God, as I said, very mean, unforgiving, interested only in the Jewish people.  I am no Bible expert or religious expert.  Jesus Christ, son of God, rejected by the Jewish people.  Believed in by the Romans and others.  Still rejected by the Jewish people as the son of God.

Old Testament  vs New.  There is and continues to be the issue of free will.  God is not controlling, we are.  You can not judge that the survivors are innocent.  You can not judge that those that don’t survive are innocent.  (Well, you can judge what you want, but I am saying from a belief stand point, only God can judge.)

I have no ideal why my three baby boys died and I did not.  . I have no ideal why I continue to live when death would be a personal relief from so much daily pain and suffering.  I am far from innocent.  Perhaps when I have suffered enough I will be allowed to die.  I, too, have no understanding.  I have blind faith.  I have hope.

I would never try and convert anyone to my way of thinking.  Not even my children, never have.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Man invented 'God' because he needed someone to hold responsible for everything that happens. He needed to believe that there is someone in charge, someone with a masterplan, who has a reason for allowing all unpleasant things to happen.


I disagree.


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I disagree.


That's fine. You are entitled to your view of things, just as I am.


----------



## fmdog44 (Jan 10, 2021)

If God was _not_ trustworthy God would not be God.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> You might be, IMO, confusing the God of the Old Testament-God the Father, with Jesus Christ.  God, as I said, very mean, unforgiving, interested only in the Jewish people.  *I am no Bible expert or religious expert.*  Jesus Christ, son of God, rejected by the Jewish people.  Believed in by the Romans and others.  Still rejected by the Jewish people as the son of God.


You sure ain't.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 10, 2021)

Pepper said:


> You sure ain't.


Do you remember kindergarten rules or forum rules even?  Just saying, cause I have not felt well all week and I find my patience is a bit thin.  I consider your comment rude, offensive, and unnecessary.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 10, 2021)

Isn’t trusting in God, trusting in ourselves since God is within us? I view God as the divine laws that govern our universe and everything in it.
An energy greater than us alone yet part of us.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Quantum mechanics is essential to understanding chemical reactions and the calculations we use to calculate yields and reaction rates. It is not very useful when we want to understand human nature and important existential questions.


Reality is actually fluid in its energy form so quantum mechanics has a lot to do with not only human nature but everything in the world and the universe. A solid rock magnified down to its basic molecular structure is moving energy just like we are and just like water is actually two gases mixed together. 
Isnt it our human perception that makes it appear otherwise?


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

And it is well that we see things at a more macro level. 
How else would we appreciate the beauty of a rose?


----------



## Keesha (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> And it is well that we see things at a more macro level.
> How else would we appreciate the beauty of a rose?


Absolutely?


----------



## MarciKS (Jan 10, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


How should I know? I'm not God. Have you even read a bible?


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Quantum mechanics is essential to understanding chemical reactions and the calculations we use to calculate yields and reaction rates. It is not very useful when we want to understand human nature and important existential questions.


I'm sure you're right, or I was until doing my search earlier, and now discover there are arguments about that, and of course the "Higgs  bosun", known as the "God particle",(but only as an exaggeration, or for some other strange reason?).


----------



## grahamg (Jan 10, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


You've asked a very good and philosophical question, way above me I'm afraid, though all I can do is repeat my mothers comment about the existence of contradictions in the bible being a good thing, and maybe you've hit on the biggest one there!


----------



## Irwin (Jan 10, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Here is something to go on as we try to understand our universe:
> 
> "*Seven Essential Elements of Quantum Physics*
> 
> ...



I'm not really interested in trying to understand the universe. If I did understand it, I'm not sure what good it would do me. I'm still going to die one day... probably within the next twenty or so years, so I'd rather spend the time I have left making music and other things just for fun. 

Eventually, quantum physics will be useful; perhaps it is right now to some people or some kind of technological developments. A lot of it is still just theoretical, but that's what nuclear science was 100 years ago, so for those studying it, all the more power to them.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 10, 2021)

At my age I have given up trying to understand all of the mysteries of this universe. I am content to wonder at it all and to appreciate its beauty and splendour.

I am reminded of a quotation from Star Trek, the Undiscovered Country that has always resonated with me



> Spock: "History is replete with turning points, Lieutenant. You must have faith."
> Valeris: "Faith?"
> Spock: "That the universe will unfold as it should."
> Valeris: "But is that logical? Surely we must....."
> Spock: "Logic, logic, and logic..... Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end."



I leave the unfolding of the universe to others to worry about. 
Am I being logical or am I exercising faith in the future?
Perhaps I am just switching off as I grow older.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 11, 2021)

Life is life as we know it, but life is probably bigger and greater than we realize. On that note, is it safe to say God is a mystery?

Do I trust in God? I trust in God as he is to me. I do not view God as a distant deity, God is me as I am Him, The more I open myself to God’s guidance and will, God is more relevant to everyday life to me.

My philosophy about people’s beliefs are it’s all part of the process to getting where you want go.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> You might be, IMO, confusing the God of the Old Testament-God the Father, with Jesus Christ.  God, as I said, very mean, unforgiving, interested only in the Jewish people.  I am no Bible expert or religious expert.  Jesus Christ, son of God, rejected by the Jewish people.  Believed in by the Romans and others.  Still rejected by the Jewish people as the son of God.


You might be interested, and maybe enlightened, by this, Aneeda.  Here is what happened:

The Crucifixion of Jesus and the Jews                            by Mark Allan Powell​ 
Jesus was crucified as a Jewish victim of Roman violence. On this, all written authorities agree. A Gentile Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, condemned him to death and had him tortured and executed by Gentile Roman soldiers. Jesus was indeed one of thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans.
The New Testament testifies to this basic fact but also allows for Jewish involvement in two ways. First, a few high-ranking Jewish authorities who owed their position and power to the Romans conspired with the Gentile leaders to have Jesus put to death; they are said to have been jealous of Jesus and to have viewed him as a threat to the status quo. Second, an unruly mob of people in Jerusalem called out for Jesus to be crucified—the number of persons in this crowd is not given, nor is any motive supplied for their action (except to say that they had been “stirred up,” Mark 15:11).
Whatever the historical circumstances might have been, early Christian tradition clearly and increasingly placed blame for the death of Jesus on the Jews, decreasing the Romans’ culpability. In Matthew, the Roman governor washes his hands of Jesus’ blood while the Jews proclaim, “His blood be on us and on our children!” (Matt 27:25). John’s Gospel portrays Jews as wanting to kill Jesus throughout his ministry (John 5:18, John 7:1, John 8:37). Similar sentiments are found elsewhere, including writings by Paul, who, himself a Jew, had once persecuted Christians (1Thess 2:14-15, Phil 3:5-6).
The reasons for this shift in emphasis are unclear, but one obvious possibility is that, as the church spread out into the world, Romans rather than Jews became the primary targets of evangelism; thus there could have been some motivation to let Romans “off the hook” and blame the Jews for Jesus’ death. This tendency seems to have increased dramatically after the Roman war with the Jews in the late 60s.
In any case, by the middle of the second century, the apocryphal _Gospel of Peter_ portrays the Romans as friends of Jesus, and the Jews as the ones who crucify him. Thus, a Jewish victim of Roman violence was transformed into a Christian victim of Jewish violence. For centuries, such notions fueled anti-Semitism, leading to a crass denunciation of Jews as “Christ-killers.”
Contrary to such projections, Christian theology has always maintained that the human agents responsible for Jesus’ death are irrelevant: he gave his life willingly as a sacrifice for sin (Mark 10:45; John 18:11). Christians regularly confess that it was _their_ sins (not the misdeeds of either Romans or Jews) that brought Jesus to the cross (Rom 5:8-9; 1Tim 1:15). In most liturgical churches, when Matthew’s Passion Narrative is read in a worship service, all members of the congregation are invited to echo Matt 27:25 aloud, crying, “Let his blood be upon _us_ and upon _our_ children!”

Mark Allan Powell, "Crucifixion of Jesus and the Jews", n.p. [cited 11 Jan 2021]. Online: https://www.bibleodyssey.org:443/en/passages/related-articles/crucifixion-of-jesus-and-the-jews


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 11, 2021)

Sunny said:


> You might be interested, and maybe enlightened, by this, Aneeda.  Here is what happened:
> 
> The Crucifixion of Jesus and the Jews                            by Mark Allan Powell​
> Jesus was crucified as a Jewish victim of Roman violence. On this, all written authorities agree. A Gentile Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, condemned him to death and had him tortured and executed by Gentile Roman soldiers. Jesus was indeed one of thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans.
> ...


Thanks, but this is not new information for me.  I think I pretty much said the above.  Yes, I left out the part about how Pontius sent JC to the Jewish leaders and they sent him back to Pontius.  But I did mention the Jewish people refused to believe he was/is the son of God.  JC had a problem with the Jewish leaders and people from the beginning, and it’s still an issue.

 Most of this is explained in the movie *Jesus Christ Superstar, oh, as well as the Bible.*  I like the original version of the movie the best.  Saw it as a child when it was banned by the Catholic Church, .  I was not raised Catholic. It has now been removed from the ban list.  I don’t know it they still have a ban list.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Jan 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Do we really trust in God or do we hedge our bets?  God gave us free will so is GOD saying trust yourself, my work is done here?  Or do we trust ourselves and hedge our bets by also trusting in God?
> 
> What do YOU think?


Trust is a hard thing to come by these days. But I believe trust in God should be first and foremost, because we all need a trusted authority to help us live our lives and not flounder in confusion, and if you’re going to have a trusted authority, you might as well go for the gold, so to speak. That’s how the human world all began and survived for 100,000 years and shall hopefully continue for another 100,000.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jan 11, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> How should I know? I'm not God. Have you even read a bible?


Not really. That's why I asked.


----------



## MarciKS (Jan 11, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Not really.


You might wanna give it a go. I don't care if people think it's a fairy tale book or not. There are a lot of answers in there. You would get your answer about your question about Satan. The why of it I don't know.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jan 11, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> You might wanna give it a go. I don't care if people think it's a fairy tale book or not. There are a lot of answers in there. You would get your answer about your question about Satan. The why of it I don't know.


Yea, not that interested.


----------



## MarciKS (Jan 11, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Yea, not that interested.


That's too bad. Hope you change your mind sometime.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 11, 2021)

@MarciKS
It's not even a matter of belief or disbelief.  The bible should be known, or read the Cliff Notes, just because the rest of western society know these stories and you don't want to be the one out of sync with the rest of the people.  I taught my child these stories, not from belief, but from the understanding that our culture rests on these stories.  If you don't understand the society you live in, you're in trouble!

The more knowledge you have, the better off you are.  Always.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 11, 2021)

> But I did mention the Jewish people refused to believe he was/is the son of God.  JC had a problem with the Jewish leaders and people from the beginning, and it’s still an issue.


That's not exactly news to most of us either, Aneeda. The way I understand it is that the Jewish leaders (behaving like the politicians they were) refused to accept him as the son of God. Well, how would you feel about someone roaming around with a fanatic following, giving anti-etablishment sermons, who said he was the son of God? 

OTOH, wasn't this all supposed to be part of God's plan to begin with?  "He sacrificed his only son to save mankind?"  If you believe that, then you have to believe that it was all orchestrated from the start, and that all the people, Romans, Jews, JC, Pilate, Judas, everybody else, were simply puppets in the drama.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 11, 2021)

Both your answers, @Sunny and @Aneeda72 are simplistic and bordering on offensive. If you Christians could have gotten your minds off Jews for awhile, the world would have been a better place.  For my brethren anyway.  I wish you guys.............ah, nevermind.  Discuss away.  However, as well as simplistic, the conversation is shallow, not historically accurate, and ..................ah, nevermind.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 11, 2021)

ps.  If you think Jews refused, who were the original Christians?  Ah, nevermind.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> ps.  If you think Jews refused, who were the original Christians?  Ah, nevermind.


Already answered, the original Christians were Romans for the most part.  Although I suppose some of the Jewish people of that time converted, but idk for sure, and other races and religions “Think Jews refused” refused what?  The Jewish people did not believe that JC was the son of God.  Today, they still do not believe JC is the son of God.

I am not going to argue history with you, I wasn’t there so I didn’t witness anything in person.  I think the Bible is an unreliable source.  But, since my nephew and his family are Jewish and they do not believe that JC is the son of God, I am fairly sure I am correct.

As for your “you Christians” comments.  What are you talking about?  Before JC, there were no Christians.

I think this thread needs to be closed.  I request that.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> @MarciKS
> It's not even a matter of belief or disbelief.  The bible should be known, or read the Cliff Notes, just because the rest of western society know these stories and you don't want to be the one out of sync with the rest of the people.  I taught my child these stories, not from belief, but from the understanding that our culture rests on these stories.  If you don't understand the society you live in, you're in trouble!
> 
> The more knowledge you have, the better off you are.  Always.


A great deal of the world can not read, and western society is just that, western society.  I do not think reading the Bible is necessary, was ever necessary, but in today’s world where religion, in western society, has become increasingly unpopular; reading the Bible is even less necessary. IMO.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Jan 11, 2021)

The earliest Christians were all Jewish, and there are many Jews today who believe in Christ. Only later when the Apostles began evangelizing Rome did the gentiles begin to convert. There was even a debate between Paul and Peter about whether or not converted gentiles should obey the Jewish Law.

Christ spoke out against the Pharisees because they represented the heart of spiritual corruption in his time and place. But even they were not all bad, as we saw with Nicodemus. The Roman empire was also a bad thing, but Christ knew the real problem was what the Pharisees represented. He had nothing against Jews per se--he was one, and all his Apostles were, too.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I think this thread needs to be closed.  I request that.


Then I won't bother responding to you.


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## Sunny (Jan 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Both your answers, @Sunny and @Aneeda72 are simplistic and bordering on offensive. If you Christians could have gotten your minds off Jews for awhile, the world would have been a better place.  For my brethren anyway.  I wish you guys.............ah, nevermind.  Discuss away.  However, as well as simplistic, the conversation is shallow, not historically accurate, and ..................ah, nevermind.


"If you Christians," Pepper?  Who you calling a Christian?


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## Lara (Jan 11, 2021)

Pepper said:


> There is no God.


Really? How do you know?


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## Pepper (Jan 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> Really? How do you know?


Peace and love to you and to all that you in your heart believe.


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## Lara (Jan 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> A great deal of the world can not read...I do not think reading the Bible is necessary...in today’s world where religion, in western society, has become increasingly unpopular; reading the Bible is even less necessary. IMO.


It's only necessary for believers to read the Bible and for those who are still seeking answers to Life. It doesn't matter at all for those who have already chosen their own destiny.


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## Keesha (Jan 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> Really? How do you know?


Hey Lara!
How lovely to see you.
I miss you and hope you are doing well. 
God bless!


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## Lara (Jan 11, 2021)

Thank you Keesha and Pepper


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## Keesha (Jan 11, 2021)

Bunnies! Everyone loves bunnies.
All Gods adorable creatures.


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## chic (Jan 11, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> The earliest Christians were all Jewish, and there are many Jews today who believe in Christ. Only later when the Apostles began evangelizing Rome did the gentiles begin to convert. There was even a debate between Paul and Peter about whether or not converted gentiles should obey the Jewish Law.
> 
> Christ spoke out against the Pharisees because they represented the heart of spiritual corruption in his time and place. But even they were not all bad, as we saw with Nicodemus. The Roman empire was also a bad thing, but Christ knew the real problem was what the Pharisees represented. He had nothing against Jews per se--he was one, and all his Apostles were, too.


This is true. The original "Christians" were Jewish. They were the apostles.


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## Keesha (Jan 11, 2021)

Excuse my ignorance here but wasn’t it the Jews who killed Jesus and why? There are many theories out there that claim that it was the Romans who did it. I’m a bit embarrassed that I don’t really know or understand this and I watched the original ‘ Jesus Christ Super Star.’


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## oldmontana (Jan 11, 2021)

I like this that our veterinarian  had at his check out desk..

In God we trust others will pay cash.


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## Lara (Jan 11, 2021)

It's my understanding that, yes, the Jews killed Jesus and Jesus was also a Jew. The Jews killed Jesus because they didn't believe him when he said he was the Messiah, the Son of God...despite the answer to all of the many prophesies describing the Messiah's details of lineage, who, what, when, where, and why. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to appear on earth. Well, many Jews do believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
A website called "Jews for Jesus" lists 40 of the top prophesies describing his coming of which Jesus fulfilled all.
Here's the link... https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies


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## Lara (Jan 11, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If there were a Satan, why wouldn't God just destroy him?


Hi Gary . That's a really great question. God IS more powerful than Satan so you would think He would destroy Satan...I would think that too but here's the thing, I've read the Bible and here's what it says about that...

If God eliminated all Evil then we would only have Good in the world. Sounds great I know....no sin, no sinners, no suffering. But God wanted to create his children to have choices to obey him and choices between good and evil...otherwise he would be creating robots. He didn't want robots. He wanted a loving family. Much like earthly fathers want their children to obey and love one another.

Life is all about Love; Loving ourselves, loving others, and loving God our father. That's what God wants. Many have chosen to reject him but  he still loves them. But he can't fully be there for them until they want him.


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## Warrigal (Jan 11, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> The earliest Christians were all Jewish, and there are many Jews today who believe in Christ. Only later when the Apostles began evangelizing Rome did the gentiles begin to convert. There was even a debate between Paul and Peter about whether or not converted gentiles should obey the Jewish Law.
> 
> Christ spoke out against the Pharisees because they represented the heart of spiritual corruption in his time and place. But even they were not all bad, as we saw with Nicodemus. The Roman empire was also a bad thing, but Christ knew the real problem was what the Pharisees represented. He had nothing against Jews per se--he was one, and all his Apostles were, too.


An excellent post. I very much doubt that the people who flocked to Jesus and listened to his teachings considered him to be the son of Jehovah in the literal sense. His parentage was after all quite questionable. He might have claimed to be of the House of David (I really don't know whether he did or didn't). In the bible he refers to himself as the Son of Man. 

What does that mean? Is he saying that he is a human being or did that phrase have special meaning to the Jews of first century? The best people to answer that question would be scholars of ancient writings. I am not one of these. My speculations are just that, speculation.

Some of his followers may have referred to him as a son of God in the same way that I might say that a baptised child who attends church with their parents is a child of the Church. It is but a small change to replace the indefinite article with the definite. *A* son of God over time might morph into *the* Son of God. Certainly the gospel writers were happy to refer to him as the Son of God as they recorded his life years after his crucifixion.

I don't waste much time wrestling with conundrums like these.  When I dip into the scriptures I am looking for guidance and encouragement as I try to put Jesus' teachings into practice. The understanding I glean from the words is not static. It grows in proportion to my  lived experiences and my openness to, for want of a better expression, the leading of the Spirit.


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## grahamg (Jan 11, 2021)

Just to throw Richard Dworkins name into the discussion, (not that he needs publicity), I fail to understand his great need to as he sees it, "save the world from any belief in God"?
We all like to put forward our views on whatever topic, and once heard, its nice if a few agree with you, or even a majority, but mostly I've never seen the need to try to push your thoughts down others throats as he seems to wish to do, (maybe with the exception of.my fathers/parents rights views, but even there I've come to accept similarly excluded parents take a differing view to my own  ).


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## Pepper (Jan 12, 2021)

Proselytizing is a unique sport that has caused the torture and deaths of millions of fellow human beings throughout Western history.  Yet it lives.  Onward Christian soldiers.


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Proselytizing is a unique sport that has caused the torture and deaths of millions of fellow human beings throughout Western history.  Yet it lives.  Onward Christian soldiers.


Au contraire, without the spread of Christianity, which only rarely was spread by the sword, the culture of human rights which atheists enjoy would never have flourished.


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## Lara (Jan 12, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Proselytizing is a unique sport that has caused the torture and deaths of millions of fellow human beings throughout Western history.  Yet it lives.  Onward Christian soldiers.


Unfortunately, many confuse the word "Proselytize" (which means attempt to convert) with "Freedom of Expression" (which is simply freely verbalizing what you believe without being silenced). There is no lack of sharing views from Agnostics, Atheists, and Christians alike...we are all simply expressing ourselves in this Senior Forum. Of course, in the world, you will find some pushy rude people....I don't see it here.

I hope everyone here understands that I'm just sharing my views just like unbelievers are sharing theirs.
I like to call it a discussion. I don't see that anyone is being pushy. It's best to love one another....all races and religions.


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Lara said:


> Unfortunately, many confuse the word "Proselytize" (which means attempt to convert) with "Freedom of Expression" (which is simply freely verbalizing what you believe without being quieted). There is no lack of that from Agnostics, Atheists...no different than the Christians in the Senior Forum.
> 
> I hope everyone here understands that I'm just sharing my views just like unbelievers are sharing theirs.
> I like to call it a discussion. I don't see that anyone is being pushy.


'Tis a friendly discussion, I agree. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 12, 2021)

Graham, do you mean Richard Dawkins, the renowned atheist? Here's a delightful talk by him; it's long, but worth watching and very entertaining.

https://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_militant_atheism/transcript?language=en


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Proselytizing is a unique sport that has caused the torture and deaths of millions of fellow human beings throughout Western history.  Yet it lives.  Onward Christian soldiers.


I like you a lot pepper so keeping my mouth shut.  Self application of duct tape does work.  This thread has really gone off course, but it happens.  I have gone off course on threads frequently.  I find when I do not feel well my usual patience leaves the building.

My fibromyalgia is killing me.  I can barely force myself to do anything and it’s very hard to keep my walking up.  Plus my elbows, and knees, always hurt really bad when I have a flare.  Hope it ends soon since puppy comes on Friday.  I think we are going to settle on Bella Rose as her AKC name.  Now, just to decide on her call name.

You can register a mixed breed dog with AKC for the purpose of obedience training @Pepper


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## Warrigal (Jan 12, 2021)

Sunny, have you read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins?


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## Sunny (Jan 12, 2021)

I don't think so, Warrigal.  Is it good?


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## Pepper (Jan 12, 2021)

@Aneeda72 
If you are saying that chronic pain has an effect on how we think and how we live our lives I totally agree with you.  Pain is a weight, a burden, that doesn't leave.  It is a stressful way to live, lonely even. I wish I didn't know what you are talking about, but I do.

Bella Rose is a beautiful name.  Her call name will be what you guys are comfortable saying.  Lots of love & luck with this little girl.


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## Sunny (Jan 12, 2021)

> Au contraire, without the spread of Christianity, which only rarely was spread by the sword,


Ruby Rose, surely you jest! Do you have any knowledge of world history?


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## Pepper (Jan 12, 2021)

re:  Threads going off course
So let's say we're on course, but during that someone mentions One Thing that ignites memory, knowledge, opinion in another person.  So person A with a throwaway, casual remark is the spark that person B focuses on.  Like in a real conversation, like if we were talking face to face.


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Its all about energy.  All is one.


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Ruby Rose, surely you jest! Do you have any knowledge of world history?


I began my heavy reading in world history when I lived in Germany for three years in the early 60s. I know that the Roman empire was converted to Christianity through evangelization, not through coercion. My in-law aunts were missionaries. Enough said.


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I like you a lot pepper so keeping my mouth shut.  Self application of duct tape does work.  This thread has really gone off course, but it happens.  I have gone off course on threads frequently.  I find when I do not feel well my usual patience leaves the building.
> 
> My fibromyalgia is killing me.  I can barely force myself to do anything and it’s very hard to keep my walking up.  Plus my elbows, and knees, always hurt really bad when I have a flare.  Hope it ends soon since puppy comes on Friday.  I think we are going to settle on Bella Rose as her AKC name.  Now, just to decide on her call name.
> 
> You can register a mixed breed dog with AKC for the purpose of obedience training @Pepper


I have to touch base here...fibromyalgia is the name of the game with me as well (which I hate hate hate with a passion...with no rhyme nor reason), which I try to relieve with mindless chores and, of course, my wonderful office full of past material that I can lose myself in, hence the Senior Forums.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Jan 12, 2021)

I do believe AND trust in God...with everything in me. 
He gave me life and the free will to do with this life what I may. I can follow the good path or the bad...I choose the good. And if I straY off of it, He has always been there to help me back on. I trust in Him 100% and think He is sending some strong messages back to this world. If only more people would listen.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> I began my heavy reading in world history when I lived in Germany for three years in the early 60s. I know that the Roman empire was converted to Christianity through evangelization, not through coercion. My in-law aunts were missionaries. Enough said.


Well, I have more to say .  I am Catholic by choice and baptism, (in my 40’s I think) not by birth or education.  But the Catholic church, IMO, used coercion for sure with many groups.  many groups were forced to attend by threats of violence and force of arms.  Many groups were enticed by promises of food.  And many groups were tortured to death for failure to comply.

The history of the Catholic Church itself is shameful.  But, it was the same with many other religious groups.


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> I do believe AND trust in God...with everything in me.
> He gave me life and the free will to do with this life what I may. I can follow the good path or the bad...I choose the good. And if I straY off of it, He has always been there to help me back on. I trust in Him 100% and think He is sending some strong messages back to this world. If only more people would listen.


A very good saying I've often repeated to myself over the years:

Keep yourself on the path of light
and there shall be few shadows,
serve Him in body, mind and soul, 
and the growth and the bounty of 
peace and harmony in thy 
experience will be the gift of 
the Father.


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## officerripley (Jan 12, 2021)

Lately, if anybody asks me if I believe in God, I say, "Which god? (There've been so many throughout human history."


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## grahamg (Jan 12, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Graham, do you mean Richard Dawkins, the renowned atheist? Here's a delightful talk by him; it's long, but worth watching and very entertaining.
> 
> https://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_militant_atheism/transcript?language=en


Yes, I got confused, (again), with an American philosopher called Richard Dworkin.
I can't follow your link on this tablet, I was going to say "unfortunately", but in truth I've probably heard about as much as I can take from Richard Dawkins, and as I see it, his arrogance portraying himself as superior to all those great thinkers who went before him, who took a different view on his pet subject, or obsession. I notice when his name came up during discussions in the House of Lords, where a few archbishops of the church of England still hold places, they had a little joke about him, (he doesn't seem a barrel of laughs though does he!).


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## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

May I ask how we know we are off our path?
I’ve often heard that God tosses small pebbles at  us to grab our attention if we are off our path. If we aren’t paying attention, bigger stones are thrown. Then boulders.

Oddly enough I spent most of my life journaling, mediating, going for long walks and reading every spiritual book I could find. It gave me such comfort and joy.

Now I have this intense fear that I can’t seem to let go of . Having mental disorders only makes it worse. I fully understand that what we think about we create or become but does God take this into consideration OR do we just hand all our fears over to him/her?

I’m wondering if God takes mental disorder and or dementia into consideration.


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## MarciKS (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> May I ask how we know we are off our path?
> I’ve often heard that God tosses small pebbles at  us to grab our attention if we are off our path. If we aren’t paying attention, bigger stones are thrown. Then boulders.
> 
> Oddly enough I spent most of my life journaling, mediating, going for long longs and reading every spiritual book I could find. It gave me such comfort and joy.
> ...


he will show you and guide you back. at least he does for me anyway.


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## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> he will show you and guide you back. at least he does for me anyway.


Thank you my friend.  I’m guessing that we also have to feel worthy of Gods help or we will forever feel separated. Something I need to work on.


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## MarciKS (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Thank you my friend.  I’m guessing that we also have to feel worthy of Gods help or we will forever feel separated. Something I need to work on.


he loves everyone no matter where they are or what they've done. he's waiting to get as many of us into his family as possible. once you're there he won't let you wander far.


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> May I ask how we know we are off our path?
> I’ve often heard that God tosses small pebbles at  us to grab our attention if we are off our path. If we aren’t paying attention, bigger stones are thrown. Then boulders.
> 
> Oddly enough I spent most of my life journaling, mediating, going for long longs and reading every spiritual book I could find. It gave me such comfort and joy.
> ...


Personally, I have gotten through many disasters, mental and physical to myself and others, including sorrows, deaths, illnesses, and dangers, through belief in my personal guardian angel as assigned to me by God above, and as taught to me by nuns way back when I was a schoolgirl in a Catholic Convent, which has held me always in good stead, leaving me with the feeling that I never stood alone.

When I lived in Germany in the 60s and was pregnant for the first time, I felt I stood alone with no friends, no blood relations, and only a smattering of the language to assist me. I felt totally isolated and when I was told that at seven months my baby would die at birth, I almost despaired, but, through it all with the help of my guardian angel--a messenger from God--I totally immersed myself in the remaining time I had with my baby girl, talking to her, soothing her, singing to her, reading her poetry, etc., as she jumped and bumped and her little heart was still beating. Consequently, at nine months, when she died at birth, I was resigned to it that it was God's will and meant to be, because, as it turned out, she was a Thalidomide baby and would not have lived a full life.

God is the perfect judge, is always willing to listen, and will take into account everything and all problems that you have.


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## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> Personally, I have gotten through many disasters, mental and physical to myself and others, including sorrows, deaths, illnesses, and dangers, through belief in my personal guardian angel as assigned to me by God above, and as taught to me by nuns way back when I was a schoolgirl in a Catholic Convent, which has held me always in good stead, leaving me with the feeling that I never stood alone.
> 
> When I lived in Germany in the 60s and was pregnant for the first time, I felt I stood alone with no friends, no blood relations, and only a smattering of the language to assist me. I felt totally isolated and when I was told that at seven months my baby would die at birth, I almost despaired, but, through it all with the help of my guardian angel--a messenger from God--I totally immersed myself in the remaining time I had with my baby girl, talking to her, soothing her, singing to her, reading her poetry, etc., as she jumped and bumped and her little heart was still beating. Consequently, at nine months, when she died at birth, I was resigned to it that it was God's will and meant to be, because, as it turned out, she was a Thalidomide baby and would not have lived a full life.
> 
> God is the perfect judge, is always willing to listen, and will take into account everything and all problems that you have.


Thank you very much for sharing your story and offering support. I’m so sorry for your loss and understand your reason for sharing it. 
Do you have a regular fellowship you belong to even while doing this Covid virus?


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## Ruby Rose (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Thank you very much for sharing your story and offering support. I’m so sorry for your loss and understand your reason for sharing it.
> Do you have a regular fellowship you belong to even while doing this Covid virus?


Our province is presently in code red mode and has been for some time now. I do have a close fellowship line as needed and I feel and know that in spite of being an Octogenarian, I am healthy mentally and physically thanks  be to God. Thank you for asking.


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## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> Our province is presently in code red mode and has been for some time now. I do have a close fellowship line as needed and I feel and know that in spite of being an Octogenarian, I am healthy mentally and physically thanks  be to God. Thank you for asking.


Our province is in code red mode also. We’ve had over 4,000 cases recently. I had to research Octogenarian but I’ve had to look up a few words in this thread. That’s quite impressive. 
Im glad God is giving you health and longevity both mentally and physically. One can’t really ask for more . Have a lovely  day Rose. It’s been nice chatting with you.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 12, 2021)

If 'God' gives someone good health, why does he let so many others suffer and die?


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> May I ask how we know we are off our path?
> I’ve often heard that God tosses small pebbles at  us to grab our attention if we are off our path. If we aren’t paying attention, bigger stones are thrown. Then boulders.
> 
> Oddly enough I spent most of my life journaling, mediating, going for long longs and reading every spiritual book I could find. It gave me such comfort and joy.
> ...


Believe God knows "all the little things" that go into our make up.  Can you "change your thinking and eliminate the poisons"?

When I meditate, if a thought keeps coming round and round... well, I developed a mental image of wrapping it in brown butcher paper, and dropping it over a waterfall.  Its gone, then.

God knows us and the "try" is counted as righteousness.  

Often if I get too involved with something, I mentally stand back and just watch myself go by. 

Also saying the words to yourself "I am" helps connect with your higher self. There is so much beauty in the higher world. Know that this world is a shadow of the higher spiritual world.  Of course hand your fears over to Father/Mother God.  If we only truly knew how much we were loved!


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> If 'God' gives someone good health, why does he let so many others suffer and die?


I could give you my opinion, but don't think you would like it.  So, why not ask God yourself and watch your dreams and synchronicity to give you the personal answer in a way you can accept.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Liberty said:


> I could give you my opinion, but don't think you would like it.  So, why not ask God yourself and watch your dreams and synchronicity to give you the personal answer in a way you can accept.


I’d actually like to know your answer @Liberty , your opinion on this subject


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## grahamg (Jan 12, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> If 'God' gives someone good health, why does he let so many others suffer and die?


I think a similar question has already been asked on this thread, and possible answers, where there are answers, (not all questions have answers of course!).
My two pennyworth on the thread topic, is sort of miracles can happen in each and every one of our lives, certainly if we wish to accept simple things as minor miracles. We can go to bed with a problem on our minds, or a decision to make, and wake up in the morning and feel differently, so the problem doesn't seem so big, or we've arrived at a firm decision on what was previously imponderable.
People have mental breakdowns, and get locked into a negative or downward spiral they feel they'll never come out of again, and somehow they do, this feels like a miracle, and can't be completely understood.
Finally the creation of a child is a miracle isn't it in a way, where we might have played a part making ourselves, and them unique to one another, (my late mother in law used to speak of this)!


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## officerripley (Jan 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I’d actually like to know your answer @Liberty , your opinion on this subject


Yeah, me too, got me curious


----------



## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

Liberty said:


> Believe God knows "all the little things" that go into our make up.  Can you "change your thinking and eliminate the poisons"?
> 
> When I meditate, if a thought keeps coming round and round... well, I developed a mental image of wrapping it in brown butcher paper, and dropping it over a waterfall.  Its gone, then.
> 
> ...


Hi Liberty,
I’m doing as much as possible to change my thoughts including CBT. I’m reading scriptures from the bible, reading through all my spiritual books, and listening to helpful audios, podcasts and videos. Louse Hays affirmations uses I AM often. For a while I was using Wayne dyers morning and evening mediations but they were making me cry too much and I’m not sure why. Lol.

Just the fact that I’m believing so intensely in fear should be enough of an indicator that I’m on the wrong path since fear is ALL ego induced which separates me. I think that a basic long based unhealthy belief about myself has suffered along with some fearful foresight. From what I’ve read about old unhealthy beliefs is that they have deep grooves, like huge tire tracks so even when trying to change a belief it wants to slip back into those old grooves. NLP

The silent witness helps a lot as well as pulling back to see the bigger picture and adding space between thoughts and self.

Fear and negative thoughts are a lower frequency so are differently NOT part of the higher self. I think my main problem is that I’m emotionally over invested in this problem of self. 
When I take my medication and realize that I AM part of divinity ; part of humanity as a whole, I settle down.

Thanks Liberty. You’ve helped me confirm that I am the right right track. It just needs some more time, practice and faith.

I like this thread.


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I’d actually like to know your answer @Liberty , your opinion on this subject


I once, many years ago ask God the same thing.  The answers I got back were incredible to say the least, in a way that really got my attention. Send me a note on the start conversation personal mail and I'd be glad to as best I can, relate this.  Best not to take up this forum space when others are discussing the main thread here.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 12, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> If 'God' gives someone good health, why does he let so many others suffer and die?


Because human souls need to go through all experiences, pleasant and unpleasant. This is why we live several lives, and each one is different.


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## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Hi Liberty,
> I’m doing as much as possible to change my thoughts including CBT. I’m reading scriptures from the bible, reading through all my spiritual books, and listening to helpful audios, podcasts and videos. Louse Hays affirmations uses I AM often. For a while I was using Wayne dyers morning and evening mediations but they were making me cry too much and I’m not sure why. Lol.
> 
> Just the fact that I’m believing so intensely in fear should be enough of an indicator that I’m on the wrong path since fear is ALL ego induced which separates me. I think that a basic long based unhealthy belief about myself has suffered along with some fearful foresight. From what I’ve read about old unhealthy beliefs is that they have deep grooves, like huge tire tracks so even when trying to change a belief it wants to slip back into those old grooves. NLP
> ...


I'd take advantage of those beautiful nature relaxing music you-tubes.  Relax and let your energy raise.
Fear has no power except what you give it, of course.  By watching your thoughts you are practicing faith and you will grow so strong.Try laughing at yourself, too.  For me, that's real easy to do...just have to look in the mirror!


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

I don’t understand anyone’s claim that JC was killed by the Jewish people.  JC was arrested and taken to Caiaphas, a high Jewish priest.  Caiaphas, without the backing of Sanhedrin (the Jewish council) could not order the death of JC.

He turned JC over to the Roman authority, and Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.  I won’t go through the whole story, it’s well known.  Pilate orders JC”s death by crucifixion.  He was killed by the Roman.  The Romans were not Jewish.  The Apostles were not present at Golgotha and did not witness His death.

Present were “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James the Younger”, according to National Geography magazine Jesus and the Origins of Christianity and the Bible book of Mark 14:18.

This magazine, which I have not read in full yet, as I just bought it.  It speaks to that fact that both Gentiles and Jews were followers of JC; and that followers of Christ were expected, by the Apostles, to becomes Jewish.  But Paul disagreed.

Anyway, read the magazine if you are interested.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Liberty said:


> I once, many years ago ask God the same thing.  The answers I got back were incredible to say the least, in a way that really got my attention. Send me a note on the start conversation personal mail and I'd be glad to as best I can, relate this.  Best not to take up this forum space when others are discussing the main thread here.


I started the thread, I’m the OP, , almost no one is following the original intent of the thread so go ahead and explain your position.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Because human souls need to go through all experiences, pleasant and unpleasant. This is why we live several lives, and each one is different.


deleted


----------



## Keesha (Jan 12, 2021)

Liberty said:


> I'd take advantage of those beautiful nature relaxing music you-tubes.  Relax and let your energy raise.
> Fear has no power except what you give it, of course.  By watching your thoughts you are practicing faith and you will grow so strong.Try laughing at yourself, too.  For me, that's real easy to do...just have to look in the mirror!


I’d got a solitudes channel that I listen to mostly since I don’t watch much TV and I just love it. It’ plays the Loons over the Great Lakes and Thunderstorms which bring back such great memories of when I used to listen to my cassettes.

Laughter is something I did all the time and am good at it.  LOL. Thanks again for the help and I apologize for monopolizing the thread  some but certainly won’t feel bad about it


----------



## Liberty (Jan 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I started the thread, I’m the OP, , almost no one is following the original intent of the thread so go ahead and explain your position.


Ok, gotta go now, but will tomorrow!


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 13, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t understand anyone’s claim that JC was killed by the Jewish people.  JC was arrested and taken to Caiaphas, a high Jewish priest.  Caiaphas, without the backing of Sanhedrin (the Jewish council) could not order the death of JC.
> 
> He turned JC over to the Roman authority, and Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.  I won’t go through the whole story, it’s well known.  Pilate orders JC”s death by crucifixion.  He was killed by the Roman.  The Romans were not Jewish.  The Apostles were not present at Golgotha and did not witness His death.
> 
> ...


After the crucifixion, the family and followers of Jesus were hunted down. They had to flee the country. Most of the mediterranean countries were occupied by the Romans and yet the apostles were allowed to travel freely and preach the new teaching. That wouldn't have been possible if they were considered enemies of the state. 
No, Jesus was executed by the Jewish religious leaders, the Sanhedrin.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> After the crucifixion, the family and followers of Jesus were hunted down. They had to flee the country. Most of the mediterranean countries were occupied by the Romans and yet the apostles were allowed to travel freely and preach the new teaching. That wouldn't have been possible if they were considered enemies of the state.
> No, Jesus was executed by the Jewish religious leaders, the Sanhedrin.


We agree to disagree


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 13, 2021)

The topic of this fascinating post is ; “Do we really “trust in God”? What would happen if the topic was rephrased to “Do I really trust in God”?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> The topic of this fascinating post is ; “Do we really “trust in God”? What would happen if the topic was rephrased to “Do I really trust in God”?


I do not know, why don’t you start that one, this one certainly went off course


----------



## Liberty (Jan 13, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I do not know, why don’t you start that one, this one certainly went off course


I guess I'll save my input for the new thread, then?


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Jan 13, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> Personally, I have gotten through many disasters, mental and physical to myself and others, including sorrows, deaths, illnesses, and dangers, through belief in my personal guardian angel as assigned to me by God above, and as taught to me by nuns way back when I was a schoolgirl in a Catholic Convent, which has held me always in good stead, leaving me with the feeling that I never stood alone.
> 
> When I lived in Germany in the 60s and was pregnant for the first time, I felt I stood alone with no friends, no blood relations, and only a smattering of the language to assist me. I felt totally isolated and when I was told that at seven months my baby would die at birth, I almost despaired, but, through it all with the help of my guardian angel--a messenger from God--I totally immersed myself in the remaining time I had with my baby girl, talking to her, soothing her, singing to her, reading her poetry, etc., as she jumped and bumped and her little heart was still beating. Consequently, at nine months, when she died at birth, I was resigned to it that it was God's will and meant to be, because, as it turned out, she was a Thalidomide baby and would not have lived a full life.
> 
> God is the perfect judge, is always willing to listen, and will take into account everything and all problems that you have.


Ruby, I am so very sorry about the loss of your daughter, but you allowed God to walk the journey with you and help you understand and heal


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 13, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I don't think so, Warrigal.  Is it good?


He is an evolutionary biologist specialising from memory (?) in invertebrates. That is not a criticism. Charles Darwin was a keen observer of worms.

His theory suggests that the driving force of evolution is not the organism as a whole but the gene. It is a long time since I read it so I will use this Wiki quotation to provide a brief explanation.



> *Selfish genetic elements* (historically also referred to as *selfish genes*, *ultra-selfish genes*, *selfish DNA*, *parasitic DNA* and *genomic outlaws*) are genetic segments that can enhance their own transmission at the expense of other genes in the genome, even if this has no positive or a net negative effect on organismal fitness. Genomes have traditionally been viewed as cohesive units, with genes acting together to improve the fitness of the organism. However, when genes have some control over their own transmission, the rules can change, and so just like all social groups, genomes are vulnerable to selfish behaviour by their parts.
> 
> Early observations of selfish genetic elements were made almost a century ago, but the topic did not get widespread attention until several decades later. Inspired by the gene-centred views of evolution popularized by George Williams and Richard Dawkins, two papers were published back-to-back in _Nature_ in 1980 – by Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick[9] and by Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza[ – introducing the concept of selfish genetic elements (at the time called "selfish DNA") to the wider scientific community. Both papers emphasized that genes can spread in a population regardless of their effect on organismal fitness as long as they have a transmission advantage.
> 
> Selfish genetic elements have now been described in most groups of organisms, and they demonstrate a remarkable diversity in the ways by which they promote their own transmission. Though long dismissed as genetic curiosities, with little relevance for evolution, they are now recognized to affect a wide swath of biological processes, ranging from genome size and architecture to speciation.



At the time i was sceptical about this proposition but I confess that I have only rudimentary understanding of biological processes. The idea is not discussed much today. I don't think it is all that controversial or we would certainly be hearing a lot more about it today.

If you are interested in reading The Selfish Gene allow me to recommend another eminent biologist who presents a different viewpoint. He is Australian Prof. Charles Birch. He wrote a book titled On Purpose that suggests that evolution does not seem to be a matter of pure chance. Again, it is a very long time since I read this one too. Birch includes philosophical and theological concepts in his discussion. His work needs to be read thoughtfully and it does require a solid background in various branches of science.

He is not a great fan of scientific reductionism, arguing for a more holistic view point. In this he is the direct opposite of Dawkins. One viewpoint allows for the possibility of guided evolution, the other does not. 

This review is from the New Scientist



> 16 February 1991
> By John Habgood
> On Purpose by Charles Birch, New South Wales University Press,
> 
> ...


----------



## Ruby Rose (Jan 13, 2021)

Liberty said:


> I guess I'll save my input for the new thread, then?


A new thread is good!


Warrigal said:


> He is an evolutionary biologist specialising from memory (?) in invertebrates. That is not a criticism. Charles Darwin was a keen observer of worms.
> 
> His theory suggests that the driving force of evolution is not the organism as a whole but the gene. It is a long time since I read it so I will use this Wiki quotation to provide a brief explanation.
> 
> ...


No thank you, please, it only makes me sneeze; this is not my forté. Thank you, though.


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Jan 13, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> A new thread is good!
> 
> No thank you, please, it only makes me sneeze; this is not my forté. Thank you, though.


I don’t know enough to argue or debate science. I don’t disagree that we came from an atom or whatever. I just believe that God created the atom!


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 13, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I don't think so, Warrigal.  Is it good?


He is an evolutionary biologist specialising from memory (?) in invertebrates. That is not a criticism. Charles Darwin was a keen observer of worms.

His theory suggests that the driving force of evolution is not the organism as a whole but the gene. It is a long time since I read it so I will use this Wiki quotation to provide a brief explanation.



> *Selfish genetic elements* (historically also referred to as *selfish genes*, *ultra-selfish genes*, *selfish DNA*, *parasitic DNA* and *genomic outlaws*) are genetic segments that can enhance their own transmission at the expense of other genes in the genome, even if this has no positive or a net negative effect on organismal fitness. Genomes have traditionally been viewed as cohesive units, with genes acting together to improve the fitness of the organism. However, when genes have some control over their own transmission, the rules can change, and so just like all social groups, genomes are vulnerable to selfish behaviour by their parts.
> 
> Early observations of selfish genetic elements were made almost a century ago, but the topic did not get widespread attention until several decades later. Inspired by the gene-centred views of evolution popularized by George Williams and Richard Dawkins, two papers were published back-to-back in _Nature_ in 1980 – by Leslie Orgel and Francis Crick[9] and by Ford Doolittle and Carmen Sapienza[ – introducing the concept of selfish genetic elements (at the time called "selfish DNA") to the wider scientific community. Both papers emphasized that genes can spread in a population regardless of their effect on organismal fitness as long as they have a transmission advantage.
> 
> Selfish genetic elements have now been described in most groups of organisms, and they demonstrate a remarkable diversity in the ways by which they promote their own transmission. Though long dismissed as genetic curiosities, with little relevance for evolution, they are now recognized to affect a wide swath of biological processes, ranging from genome size and architecture to speciation.



At the time i was sceptical about this proposition but I confess that I have only rudimentary understanding of biological processes. The idea is not discussed much today. I don't think it is all that controversial or we would certainly be hearing a lot more about it today.

If you are interested in reading The Selfish Gene allow me to recommend another eminent biologist who presents a different viewpoint. He is Australian Prof. Charles Birch. He wrote a book titled On Purpose that suggests that evolution does not seem to be a matter of pure chance. Again, it is a very long time since I read this one too. Birch includes philosophical and theological concepts in his discussion. His work needs to be read thoughtfully and it does require a solid background in various branches of science.

He is not a great fan of scientific reductionism, arguing for a more holistic view point. In this he is the direct opposite of Dawkins. One viewpoint allows for the possibility of guided evolution, the other does not.

This review is from the New Scientist



> 16 February 1991
> By John Habgood
> On Purpose by Charles Birch, New South Wales University Press,
> 
> ...





Ruby Rose said:


> A new thread is good!
> 
> No thank you, please, it only makes me sneeze; this is not my forté. Thank you, though.


 O dear, Rose. This post was meant for Sunny and I have extended it to include another author she might find interesting but neither of them are of interest to everyone. Life's too short to wade through books that have no appeal.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Jan 13, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> I don’t know enough to argue or debate science. I don’t disagree that we came from an atom or whatever. I just believe that God created the atom!


Ditto!


----------



## charry (Jan 13, 2021)

I just want to know how people ever beLieve  in god....?
Obviously it’s been brainwashed into them from a young age......What evidence have we got, ?
I believe there is a force up there that controls our lives.....
But it’s not God ...


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 13, 2021)

charry said:


> I just want to know how people ever beLieve  in god....?
> Obviously it’s been brainwashed into them from a young age......What evidence have we got, ?
> I believe there is a force up there that controls our lives.....
> But it’s not God ...


Well, the name God is just a name, like the name rose for a rose is just a name, like the phrase “force up there“ is just a phrase.  I believe we control our lives which is why we have free will and why we are free to muck our lives up, again and again.

I am sure if God or “a force up there” controlled my life, they would have done a much better job than I have.  Otherwise, they are far more incompetent than I am, and no one ”up there” could be that stupid.


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Jan 13, 2021)

charry said:


> I just want to know how people ever beLieve  in god....?
> Obviously it’s been brainwashed into them from a young age......What evidence have we got, ?
> I believe there is a force up there that controls our lives.....
> But it’s not God ...


charry, believing in God is a choice I guess. No one can prove there ISN’T a God either.  So either way, atheists and Christens alike will all find out someday


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 13, 2021)

Keesha said:


> May I ask how we know we are off our path?
> I’ve often heard that God tosses small pebbles at  us to grab our attention if we are off our path. If we aren’t paying attention, bigger stones are thrown. Then boulders.
> 
> Oddly enough I spent most of my life journaling, mediating, going for long longs and reading every spiritual book I could find. It gave me such comfort and joy.
> ...



Do you fear retribution or punishment for past deeds? Are you dealing with trauma? Do you forgive yourself and others to understand freedom?


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 13, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Do you fear retribution or punishment for past deeds? Are you dealing with trauma? Do you forgive yourself and others to understand freedom?


Im making a lot of assumptions here, hope you are not offended


----------



## Keesha (Jan 13, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Do you fear retribution or punishment for past deeds? Are you dealing with trauma? Do you forgive yourself and others to understand freedom?


Yes. Retribution from a past life. Yes trauma from complex PSTD but the strangest thing is that I can forgive others who have severely wronged me but have a really hard time forgiving myself. 
I mentally torture myself and if Gods message is not to harm any of his children, I need to remember that I am one of his children also. Yesterday was a light bulb moment which I hope I never forget. I’ve had a very strange and unusual life . If a stranger ever caught glimpses of my life they might instantly draw conclusions. Not that I care all that much but it’s also something I need to let go of.

So I’m currently working on loving myself as I love others. Forgiving myself as I forgive others and letting anything that doesn’t serve me go.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 13, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Im making a lot of assumptions here, hope you are not offended


Not at all.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 13, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Yes. Retribution from a past life. Yes trauma from complex PSTD but the strangest thing is that I can forgive others who have severely wronged me but have a really hard time forgiving myself.
> I mentally torture myself and if Gods message is not to harm any of his children, I need to remember that I am one of his children also. Yesterday was a light bulb moment which I hope I never forget. I’ve had a very strange and unusual life . If a stranger ever caught glimpses of my life they might instantly draw conclusions. Not that I care all that much but it’s also something I need to let go of.
> 
> So I’m currently working on loving myself as I love others. Forgiving myself as I forgive others and letting anything that doesn’t serve me go.


It is sometimes harder to forgive ourselves than it is to forgive others. I have been in that situation. Try visualisation. Imagine, that like Christian in The Pilgrim's Progress, you are carrying on your back the sins that you now regret but cannot forgive. It is a heavy burden that restricts and limits you going forward.  Then choose a text from the gospels that talks of forgiveness. I myself would choose something like this from Matthew's gospel- "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

Picture yourself laying down your burden at the feet of Jesus as he says these words and wait for his response. Take your time because this is really a meditative prayer and should not be done in a rush. The result may be very beneficial to you. Blessing and peace be upon you, Keesha. I hope you find a way to forgive yourself.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 13, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> It is sometimes harder to forgive ourselves than it is to forgive others. I have been in that situation. Try visualisation. Imagine, that like Christian in The Pilgrim's Progress, you are carrying on your back the sins that you now regret but cannot forgive. It is a heavy burden that restricts and limits you going forward.  Then choose a text from the gospels that talks of forgiveness. I myself would choose something like this from Matthew's gospel- "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
> 
> Picture yourself laying down your burden at the feet of Jesus as he says these words and wait for his response. Take your time because this is really a meditative prayer and should not be done in a rush. The result may be very beneficial to you. Blessing and peace be upon you, Keesha. I hope you find a way to forgive yourself.


Thank you very much Warrigal. I most certainly will try it.

I did notice that when I made the decision to hand over my fear to God that my fear subsided a LOT. I was surprised. I am thinking that the fear that was plaguing me and making me miserable from my ‘own’ thinking, IS God’s way of letting me know I’m WAY off track in my thinking. I was trying to figure something out that wasn’t for me to understand.

I hadn’t thought of it until another member ( Ruby Rose ) mentioned that her guardian angel lets her know she’s off track. Once I handed over this huge burden to God ( the universe ) I instantly felt better. In fact,  it felt like a warm blanket was put over me. God works in mysterious ways.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 13, 2021)

I do not believe people are meant to suffer, perhaps this is why God gave his children, fellow believers freedom from regret by offering a savior, a forgiver, Jesus. Total forgiveness is complete pardon. Why do so many believers ruminate shortcomings over and over again instead of letting go and moving forward. It is as if people want Jesus be crucified time and time again for the same transgression. 

I just saying move forward by not repeating the same oh same oh, take a chance on instinct.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 13, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> Why do so many believers ruminate shortcomings over and over again instead of letting go and moving forward.


Very good point Mr. Ed. I can’t speak for anyone else but rumination is a big part of OCD which is a difficult thing is overcome even on medication. If you have no mental difficulties then this would seem extremely simple and straight forward. You also may not have gone through a lot of suffering at the hands of others either so should feel very blessed.


----------



## Lara (Jan 13, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> If 'God' gives someone good health, why does he let so many others suffer and die?


There are over 100 reason's why God allows suffering listed in the Bible which would be inappropriate to list in this forum but Josh McDowell has posted a list of 10...

The purpose of this post is not to attempt a theodicy, that is, a defense of why God allows suffering. Many fine books have done this, including the classical book _The Problem of Pain_, by C.S. Lewis or _Why Does God Allow Evil?_ by Clay Jones. Rather, I simply want to highlight ten ways the Bible addresses suffering.

These answers are not exhaustive, but they provide some biblical perspective for the inquisitive believer _and_ non-believer:​*1.* Suffering is the result of mankind’s sin and rebellion against God (Genesis 3). Mankind chose to reject God’s _one_ command, the world became corrupted by sin, and humans have suffered ever since.

*2.* God’s chosen people (the Hebrews) suffered when they disobeyed the Mosaic Covenant (Deuteronomy 28).

*3.* People sometimes suffer from the wrong choices of other human beings, even though God uses the resulting suffering for good (Genesis 50:20).

*4.* Suffering brings faithful believers into deeper understanding and relationship with Him (Job).

*5.* Believers suffer because of the jealousy and hatred of certain people who reject the Christian faith (Acts 7:54-60).

*6.* Believers suffer as a testament of faith to others (Hebrews 11).

*7.* God allows people to suffer so they will turn to Him in repentance and not perish for eternity (Luke 13:1-4).

*8.* Christians suffer so they can be conformed more closely to the character of Christ (Romans 8:28-30, James 1:2-4).

*9.* Believers suffer so they can know Christ more fully (Philippians 3:10).

*10.* To prepare followers of Christ for the glory of Heaven (2 Corinthians 4:17).

Each of these points deserves much more explanation. And each point raises further questions as well. Remember, there is no single answer to suffering...Josh McDowell​


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I do not believe people are meant to suffer, perhaps this is why God gave his children, fellow believers freedom from regret by offering a savior, a forgiver, Jesus. Total forgiveness is complete pardon. Why do so many believers ruminate shortcomings over and over again instead of letting go and moving forward. It is as if people want Jesus be crucified time and time again for the same transgression.
> 
> I just saying move forward by not repeating the same oh same oh, take a chance on instinct.


Jesus does give total forgiveness, unfortunately, we have to wait j til judgement day to find out if we have it.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Jesus does give total forgiveness, unfortunately, we have to wait j til judgement day to find out if we have it.


This is in answer to @Lara

This thread has really sidetracked as the question was about *trust in God.*  I thought a trust in God thread would be linked in to taking the vaccine or not taking the vaccine.  Silly me.  Very few people even responded to the subject of the actual thread.  I suppose a lot of people are desperate for Sunday school, nothing wrong in that, but not in line with the thread either.

Now we are speaking of why God allows pain and suffering.  *God is interested in the condition of our souls not the condition of our bodies.  *When we die whatever after life there is, (yes, if there is one) our *SOULS Go.*

Our bodies stay on earth, buried or not, and rot unless they are packed full of chemicals, in which case, they dry up like a packet of herbs.  In any event, our bodies are useless in the afterlife.

Pain has its uses to our body, as an early warning system of illness.

Individual suffering alerts our souls and makes us aware of the pain, suffering, and tragedies of other people-other souls-it gives us empathy.  A lot of people who lack empathy are referred to as soulless.  Interesting, isn’t  it?

Lara does not say if this list comes from the old or New Testament, in other words before JC or after.  In any event, I do not think you can link the pain and suffering of the human race to GOD the father. 

You could, however, link the pain and suffering of the human race to Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ, at God’s command, endured the pain and suffering of crucifixion that he might gain empathy towards the pain and suffering of the human race; and he died for sins of the souls of the human race.

Jesus Christ had free will as do all humans.  He CHOSE to follow his Father‘s command.  He chose to endure and comply with his fate.  As we chose to endure and comply with our fate, even though we are unaware as to what it is.  As we chose to believe or not believe.

As for list posted by @Lara, I chose to believe it is the words of the writers of the Bible to explain what they could not explain and an effort to control the masses and bend the people to the religious beliefs of the time.


----------



## Lara (Jan 14, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I do not believe people are meant to suffer, perhaps this is why God gave his children, fellow believers freedom from regret by offering a savior, a forgiver, Jesus. Total forgiveness is complete pardon. Why do so many believers ruminate shortcomings over and over again instead of letting go and moving forward. It is as if people want Jesus be crucified time and time again for the same transgression.
> 
> I just saying move forward by not repeating the same oh same oh, take a chance on instinct.





Aneeda72 said:


> Jesus does give total forgiveness, unfortunately, we have to wait j til judgement day to find out if we have it.


D_isclaimer 1: To Aneeda...My post #193 is an answer to Captain Lightening's question. My post here is responding to your post #194. Surprisingly, I didn't see your post #195 before composing this post #196 including the disclaimer below so none of this is directed at your #195 post. This is mostly a response to Mr. Ed. I'm sorry you haven't received a focus on Covid for this thread. I came in late and never knew this was about covid. I just went with your Thread Title, "Do we really Trust in God". Maybe you should have posted it in the Corona-Virus Forum instead of the Hot Topics Forum?_

_Disclaimer 2: To anyone reading this post....This is my biblical belief...I'm not trying to convert anyone. 
You don't have to read it. I'm not in an "organized religion". I'm in a relationship.
Geesh_

I mostly agree with @Mr. Ed. 
According to the Bible, I don't have to wait for judgement day because I already know I'm forgiven since I believe Jesus paid my suffering already...But I will be there at the judgement seat just like everybody else. And Jesus will be like my "lawyer" in front of God. And God will review my life...all my forgiven wrongs and praiseworthy rights alike. Yet, I have no fear of what happens next for me because He said "believe and you will enter".

Regarding suffering...I do believe, while we are here on earth, we all will suffer, including believers, due to:

(1) Natural consequences from our own poor choices and from repeatedly doing the same wrongs...from which we grow.

(2) Satan and evil but there are many scriptures to claim that we will be protected
...I refer to certain scriptures when evil is around and claim them

(3) God using teachable moments which may include suffering so we can grow to be more like Jesus.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Jan 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> D_isclaimer 1: To Aneeda...your quote #194 here is for this post. Surprisingly, I didn't see your post #195 before composing this post #196 including the disclaimer below so none of this is directed at your #195 post. This is mostly a response to Mr. Ed. I'm sorry you haven't received a focus on Covid for this thread. I came in late and never knew this was about covid. I just went with your Thread Title, "Do we really Trust in God"_
> 
> _Disclaimer 2: To anyone reading this post....This is my biblical belief...I'm not trying to convert anyone.
> You don't have to read it. I'm not in an "organized religion". I'm in a relationship.
> ...


I do believe it shall be a lengthy court case for one and all at the end!


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> D_isclaimer 1: To Aneeda...your quote #194 here is for this post. Surprisingly, I didn't see your post #195 before composing this post #196 including the disclaimer below so none of this is directed at your #195 post. This is mostly a response to Mr. Ed. I'm sorry you haven't received a focus on Covid for this thread. I came in late and never knew this was about covid. I just went with your Thread Title, "Do we really Trust in God"_
> 
> _Disclaimer 2: To anyone reading this post....This is my biblical belief...I'm not trying to convert anyone.
> You don't have to read it. I'm not in an "organized religion". I'm in a relationship.
> ...


I was responding to the list you posted NOT to you personally.  I did not say the thread was about Covid, I said I expected it would be about trusting God and covid as in I don’t need the vaccine cause I trust God to protect me.  I am still surprised no one has said that.

I never said you were a religion or that you were not free to believe whatever you want to believe.  There is much in the Catholic religion that I disagree with even though I am Catholic.  What I do say is the thread went off course.

But post what you want as I also said I have posted off thread on other peoples thread as well.  @Lara I had a specific interest and curiosity in mind when I started the thread I suppose I should have been more specific , my bad .


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 14, 2021)

Hmm. I thought the Roman soldiers killed Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 14, 2021)

I believe in the feminine face of the Divine, in whatever form that takes. Reincarnation also. No last judgement or smiter Deity for me. Love and kindness is  the answer in my book, and life is school. We all graduate in the end. Namaste


----------



## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm. I thought the Roman soldiers killed Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate


That won't do if one's real aim is to begin a 2,000 year old war with a built in scapegoat.  The Romans were too powerful and influential for that.  Didn't take much looking around.  Time to polish my horns.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm. I thought the Roman soldiers killed Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate


They did, but people blame the Jewish people which is old school.  It’s kind of like if you hire a hit man and the hit man kills the person but the man who hired the hit man is responsible and not the man who did the killing.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Pepper said:


> That won't do if one's real aim is to begin a 2,000 year old war with a built in scapegoat.  The Romans were too powerful and influential for that.  Didn't take much looking around.  Time to polish my horns.


I don’t even know what you mean.  But here is a cloth, polish away.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t even know what you mean.  But here is a cloth, polish away.


I once told a story here (not that you should hang on my every word!) about going to Wyoming in the early sixties & this man & his son found out our family was Jewish and seriously, innocently, and naively asked if he & his young son could touch my head to feel my horns.  I was 12 or 13.  Medieval art distinguished Jews from Christians this way.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They did, but people blame the Jewish people which is old school.  It’s kind of like if you hire a hit man and the hit man kills the person but the man who hired the hit man is responsible and not the man who did the killing.


I think Both are responsible.


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## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Why should a whole population be considered guilty for the crimes of a few of their folks?

I'll remind you that the Catholic Church did not absolve Jews from killing Christ until Benedict in 2011.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I once told a story here (not that you should hang on my every word!) about going to Wyoming in the early sixties & this man & his son found out our family was Jewish and seriously, innocently, and naively asked if he & his young son could touch my head to feel my horns.  I was 12 or 13.  Medieval art distinguished Jews from Christians this way.


Oh gosh thats funny, but not to you, of course.  Did you let him try and find the horns?  To show you didn’t have any?

My mother is really strange cause I am Catholic and my nephew and his family are Jewish.  So whenever we go see them she will lean close and say “you know they are Jewish, right?”  As if I will attack them for killing JC, .  He married a Jewish girl and converted as he wasn’t raised any particular religion.

And once my mother was in a Catholic hospital, and went to mass, and got really upset and called me cause she got in line for communion and they wouldn’t give it to her.  She was greatly upset “why won’t they give me communion?”  Cause you are not Catholic.  It was a long conversation explaining that communion in a non denomination church was totally different then blessed by a priest communion in a Catholic Church.  Course she was still insulted and angry.

People get the stupidest ideals.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 14, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Why should a whole population be considered guilty for the crimes of a few of their folks?
> 
> I'll remind you that the Catholic Church did not absolve Jews from killing Christ until Benedict in 2011.


I know, and the Catholic Church still has not returned many treasures they took into safe keeping during WWII and they refused, for the most part to protect Jewish people, and the Church has many other flaws and has done many other shameful things.  I am sure they will continue to do many shameful things as the church is run by human beings, men, for the most part.

God will judge us all by our works, or in plain language, the shit that we do.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Oh gosh thats funny, but not to you, of course.  Did you let him try and find the horns?  To show you didn’t have any?


Actually, aneeda, it was and is funny to me.  The only thing I don't like is the inherent danger ignorant people might be.  I remember that yes, I let them feel my head (my family was right there with me!) and they were astonished they found nothing.  We did not enlighten them, and they asked for nothing more & left, confused.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I know, and the Catholic Church still has not returned many treasures they took into safe keeping during WWII and they refused, for the most part to protect Jewish people, and the Church has many other flaws and has done many other shameful things. * I am sure they will continue to do many shameful things* as the church is run by human beings, men, for the most part.
> 
> God will judge us all by our works, or in plain language, the shit that we do.


Yes, human beings have shown, over and over, that we can't be trusted!  As for your last sentence, I would trust god to judge me before another human.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Jesus does give total forgiveness, unfortunately, we have to wait j til judgement day to find out if we have it.


Not necessarily. I elect to take Jesus at his word and I have sometimes been bold enough to start a prayer with "Jesus, you said ..." It is my way of expressing trust. I think you can have the same confidence/trust in the promise of forgiveness in this life. I will say though, that to experience forgiveness it is necessary to practise it. The two are inextricably linked.

So, ask "Can I forgive someone who has wronged me in the past?" With me, that person was my grandmother and she had passed. I did eventually find a way to forgive her in my heart with a symbolic gesture of atonement. I made the effort to seek out the grave of one of her sons who was killed in 1942 by the Japanese invaders as they overran our troops stationed in Malaya. When we found it in the Imperial War Cemetery in Singapore I placed a beautiful orchid in his grave and whispered "This is for you, Grandma" and all of my regret for having shunned her fell away instantly. I felt forgiven, Grandma was forgiven and in some sense we were reconciled to each other. I like to think she would have been pleased if I had done it while she was still alive.

If we very fallible human beings are capable of forgiveness, why do we think that a loving God would withhold it? Why do we absorb words about the vengeance of God and doubt the words that speak of love and forgiveness? It really isn't about pie in the sky when we die. It is about living in peace with our neighbours and finding peace within our own selves.

Who doesn't sin and trespass against their neighbour? No-one.
Who needs to be forgiven? Everyone.

"Ask, and you shall receive".
Trust that these words are for all of us.
Why wait for death to seek what we most need for inner peace?


----------



## Keesha (Jan 14, 2021)

Love your post Warrigal. 
That’s beautiful.


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## Vida May (Jan 14, 2021)

How about logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe?  That is a Greek concept and it led to science.  It goes with a concept of morals as a matter of cause and effect and good manners.   I think it is beneficial to share an idea of universal truth and something bigger than ourselves, but if we think we know god, we know god not.  Wisdom begins with "I don't know".


----------



## Sunny (Jan 15, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> charry, believing in God is a choice I guess. No one can prove there ISN’T a God either.  So either way, atheists and Christens alike will all find out someday



Kathleen, no one can ever prove a negative. That is no argument for the existence of God at all.

If I say there is a large, purple, polka-dotted people eater in the middle of your living room, and you say no, there isn't, can I say, "Well, prove that there isn't?"  Of course not. I would have to prove that there is.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 15, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Kathleen, no one can ever prove a negative. That is no argument for the existence of God at all.
> 
> If I say there is a large, purple, polka-dotted people eater in the middle of your living room, and you say no, there isn't, can I say, "Well, prove that there isn't?"  Of course not. I would have to prove that there is.


You never had a large, purple, polka-dotted people eater in the middle of your living room?  I did as a child, was hoping it would eat my parents.  No such luck


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## Sunny (Jan 15, 2021)

Statue of Moses by Michelangelo.  See those things on his head?

Not funny, this nonsense was taken literally, and who knows how much suffering and death was prompted by it?


----------



## Sunny (Jan 15, 2021)

OK, to get back to the original question, there have been people down through history who trusted in God to save them. Many of them died. Some did not. But trusting in "God," whatever that word means to you, apparently do nothing to change the course of events.  

If I were a believer, I would say that God does nothing, one way or another, to help us get what we want. And that applies to life, health, weather conditions, wars, natural disasters, whether we get the job we want, whether a particular person falls in love with us, or even whether our team wins the football game!

"Trusting in God" is meaningless.  Stuff happens. Period.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

Build a golem and he will do stuff for you:
A *golem* is a creature formed out of a lifeless substance such as dust or earth that is brought to life by ritual incantations and sequences of Hebrew letters. The *golem*, brought into being by a human creator, becomes a helper, a companion, or a rescuer of an imperiled Jewish community.  wikpedia


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Do we really trust in God or do we hedge our bets?  God gave us free will so is GOD saying trust yourself, my work is done here?  Or do we trust ourselves and hedge our bets by also trusting in God?
> 
> What do YOU think?


If you don't trust in God, even if it is your last resort, you are in BIG trouble!  If you trust in HIM you are blessed.  Regardless of your choice of belief.  That is my personal choice, I will trust in Him and His Word till I go home.


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## Vida May (Jan 15, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> charry, believing in God is a choice I guess. No one can prove there ISN’T a God either.  So either way, atheists and Christens alike will all find out someday


We have a problem with the question about if we believe there is a god.  In the US that assumes the Christian definition of God, and for me and Jews, those stories are just stories to make a point.  They are not to be taken literally.  Actually, at least five of the stories appear to be are translations of Sumerian stories adjusted to fit the theme of one god and this leads some to think these people began in Egypt under a pharaoh who insisted everyone worship one god.  

When I was 8, I asked my Sunday School teacher why Catholics and Protestants were separate.  She could not give me a satisfactory answer and that lead to learning of all religions and they are all basically the same.  Actually, I like the Hindu explanation of why we are not perfect better than the Christian one and I don't see their caste system as different from Western classes, in the days of old, when a person's life was stuck in the position a person was born into and this was seen as God's will.    

Joseph Campbell explained how around the world myths share much in common.  His notion was God spoke to everyone, and people heard him differently depending on their environment and history.  I like that notion, but for me, that is not a god like the Christian god, but is logos. I think the Christian notion of a God that is modeled after humans, is as real as Zeus.   Christians have made an incomprehensible god comprehensible and I think that is a mistake.  

I say all that because I think we are better off accepting a notion of universal god than when we deny such a possibility, so I ask Christians to allow me and others, their understanding of god and don't make it an either-or choice.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

Beautifully expressed @Vida May


----------



## rgp (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> If you don't trust in God, even if it is your last resort, you are in BIG trouble!  If you trust in HIM you are blessed.  Regardless of your choice of belief.  That is my personal choice, I will trust in Him and His Word till I go home.




Sure I trust in him. I trust that he will bring about yet another catastrophic weather event , or perhaps a school shooting / mass shooting , etc. That will take the lives of hundreds ? thousands ? Many of which will likely be children . Yes indeed he surely does work in wonderous mysterious ways.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Build a golem and he will do stuff for you:
> A *golem* is a creature formed out of a lifeless substance such as dust or earth that is brought to life by ritual incantations and sequences of Hebrew letters. The *golem*, brought into being by a human creator, becomes a helper, a companion, or a rescuer of an imperiled Jewish community.  wikpedia
> 
> View attachment 144827



Whoops, do you garden?  The soil we need for gardening is not lifeless.  When soil is lifeless it is infertile and nothing can grow in it.  However, our thoughts change and grow and are very important.  Things will be as we think they are and a lot of drama can come out of disagreeing.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> Sure I trust in him. I trust that he will bring about yet another catastrophic weather event , or perhaps a school shooting / mass shooting , etc. That will take the lives of hundreds ? thousands ? Many of which will likely be children . Yes indeed he surely does work in wonderous mysterious ways.


God leaves decisions up to mankind.  Mankind chooses to do these things you mention.  God could intervene and heal and stop all chaos.  But, these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers.  If everything was easy, no sickness, etc., we would never have any hurdles to overcome and figure out a way to do it better.  Babies have to pick themselves up again and again until they learn how to walk.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Vida May said:


> We have a problem with the question about if we believe there is a god.  In the US that assumes the Christian definition of God, and for me and Jews, those stories are just stories to make a point.  They are not to be taken literally.  Actually, at least five of the stories appear to be are translations of Sumerian stories adjusted to fit the theme of one god and this leads some to think these people began in Egypt under a pharaoh who insisted everyone worship one god.
> 
> When I was 8, I asked my Sunday School teacher why Catholics and Protestants were separate.  She could not give me a satisfactory answer and that lead to learning of all religions and they are all basically the same.  Actually, I like the Hindu explanation of why we are not perfect better than the Christian one and I don't see their caste system as different from Western classes, in the days of old, when a person's life was stuck in the position a person was born into and this was seen as God's will.
> 
> ...


I gladly read about your choice and explainations.  Everyone goes through life making choices, putting them into practice.  I like things that work, really work.  And I have made my choice and I read His Word daily and choose to pattern my life after His Will.  To each his own.  In my eyes, Catholics and Protestants both believe in the same God, just different ways of going about it.  So, both are blessed.  Sorry, that is short and sweet, but I don't want to elaborate on this subject too long.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> Sure I trust in him. I trust that he will bring about yet another catastrophic weather event , or perhaps a school shooting / mass shooting , etc. That will take the lives of hundreds ? thousands ? Many of which will likely be children . Yes indeed he surely does work in wonderous mysterious ways.


 In other words, big trouble can come our way, and sacrificing animals, burning candles, reciting the right words, does not protect us.  But if we think positively and imagine something good can happen, that opens the door for something good to happen, and the chances that something good will happen are strong.  If not, and we loose both legs, or a loved one, we can still create something good out of our misfortune.  If we look for the good we will find it.  

I knew a young man who had ALS, a disease that kills the nervous system.  He couldn't even scratch his own nose.  I was so impressed by his ability to overcome his misfortune and still find pleasure in life.  He had great value because he taught a great lesson.  I can imagine how we create god-like figures because we want to remember and emulate people who teach such great lessons.   When I think my life is intolerable, I think of him and realize how lucky I am.


----------



## Vida May (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God leaves decisions up to mankind.  Mankind chooses to do these things you mention.  God could intervene and heal and stop all chaos.  But, these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers.  If everything was easy, no sickness, etc., we would never have any hurdles to overcome and figure out a way to do it better.  Babies have to pick themselves up again and again until they learn how to walk.


Yes and for that reason, I do not look forward to the Christian heaven.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 15, 2021)

I can't totally agree with rgp as some of these atrocities are purely man-made.  However, I start to question why innocent children are born with terrible illnesses, or parasitic insects spread disease  etc..  If you believe that god is responsible for "all things bright and beautiful", then you must also accept that 'he' is responsible for much of the bad things in the world.

I do not believe in a god, and when you're dead, you're dead.


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## Knight (Jan 15, 2021)

The topic is do we really trust in God?

For those with blind faith or a belief there is a supernatural being billions of years old that created the heavens, earth & mankind.

What exactly do you trust?


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

@Vida May 
My Golem was just for some comic relief.  No Golems around then or now.  A story for those seeking protection from other humans.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Jan 15, 2021)

Vida May said:


> We have a problem with the question about if we believe there is a god.  In the US that assumes the Christian definition of God, and for me and Jews, those stories are just stories to make a point.  They are not to be taken literally.  Actually, at least five of the stories appear to be are translations of Sumerian stories adjusted to fit the theme of one god and this leads some to think these people began in Egypt under a pharaoh who insisted everyone worship one god.
> 
> When I was 8, I asked my Sunday School teacher why Catholics and Protestants were separate.  She could not give me a satisfactory answer and that lead to learning of all religions and they are all basically the same.  Actually, I like the Hindu explanation of why we are not perfect better than the Christian one and I don't see their caste system as different from Western classes, in the days of old, when a person's life was stuck in the position a person was born into and this was seen as God's will.
> 
> ...





Vida May said:


> We have a problem with the question about if we believe there is a god.  In the US that assumes the Christian definition of God, and for me and Jews, those stories are just stories to make a point.  They are not to be taken literally.  Actually, at least five of the stories appear to be are translations of Sumerian stories adjusted to fit the theme of one god and this leads some to think these people began in Egypt under a pharaoh who insisted everyone worship one god.
> 
> When I was 8, I asked my Sunday School teacher why Catholics and Protestants were separate.  She could not give me a satisfactory answer and that lead to learning of all religions and they are all basically the same.  Actually, I like the Hindu explanation of why we are not perfect better than the Christian one and I don't see their caste system as different from Western classes, in the days of old, when a person's life was stuck in the position a person was born into and this was seen as God's will.
> 
> ...


Vida May, I so didn’t mean it was an either or choice. (Well in a way I guess I did.  But what I meant was people have a choice to believe in any God they choose or not believe in any at all) I highly respect others beliefs and feel it’s
like one of those “there isn’t any right or wrong
answer tests” that I use to love to take. Do I, personally believe there is only one true God?  Yes, but I think all people’s idea of God is one in the same...does that make sense?  Do I think only people of my religion and my beliefs will go to heaven??? Absolutely not. I don’t think anyone was meant to prove or understand the concept of God. They were just meant to believe, have trust in, and follow the ways of whichever God they choose.


Sunny said:


> Kathleen, no one can ever prove a negative. That is no argument for the existence of God at all.
> 
> If I say there is a large, purple, polka-dotted people eater in the middle of your living room, and you say no, there isn't, can I say, "Well, prove that there isn't?"  Of course not. I would have to prove that there is.


. Oh Sunny it is all beyond my mortal brain. I just believe what I believe with no explanations or proof needed. Guess that is called faith. But this is MY belief, and have all the respect in the world for what other people choose to believe or not believe


----------



## rgp (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God leaves decisions up to mankind.  Mankind chooses to do these things you mention.  God could intervene and heal and stop all chaos.  But, these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers.  If everything was easy, no sickness, etc., we would never have any hurdles to overcome and figure out a way to do it better.  Babies have to pick themselves up again and again until they learn how to walk.




 Mankind brings about hurricanes, earthquakes & the like ? 

  " these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers"

 Really ? Just when will we be strong enough ?


----------



## Knight (Jan 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> Mankind brings about hurricanes, earthquakes & the like ?
> 
> " these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers"
> 
> Really ? Just when will we be strong enough ?


Think about it this way RGP

Mankind has done really great at overcoming hurdles. Stones attached to sticks as weapons gave way metal. Bows & arrows gave way to rifles & bullets. Bayonets not great but better than close contact with a knife.

Tanks & armored vehicles worked really good but planes able to drop bombs improved the ability to kill without personal contact.

Useful was the M-1 carbine but better was the fully automatic machine gun. The fully automatic machine gun was accepted by criminals as a better way to out gun the police. Then seeing that, use by crazies to kill became popular. Guns are being phased out that is why the Chinese thought up a better way to kill. A bio weapon called covid-19. When that gets controlled the next hurdle will probably take longer to be put in place.

Killing without having to resort to stones attached to sticks took some time to achieve but as was pointed out mankind & hurdles are part of the challenges to overcome. Could be in the grand plan for mankind as the world population grew the hurdle of living a long life was part of the long term plan by God to limit population.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> Mankind brings about hurricanes, earthquakes & the like ?
> 
> " these bad events make people and animals stronger to be overcomers"
> 
> Really ? Just when will we be strong enough ?


Ok, the things you talked about are incidents that happen.  We are to be strong in character, not to resort to violence, bitterness, division, etc.  We need to help those that need help, show kindness, and forgiveness.  Animals are the same, they forgive us when we correct them and they still love us and trust us.  Natural disasters will happen and we go forward and build again and go forward with life.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

There are two roads to choose from.  Life or destruction.  Not a lot of choices.  At the end of the day, everything and everyone returns to dust.  But, those who believe have life eternal and will not just return to dust.  Our souls return to Heaven to live with the Father and our families.  I speak bluntly and openly about this because I am a believer in God and know for certain all about Him and His creation.  I don't have all the answers, but this is my statement.  I have been tested and will continue to be tested in my Faith, but I resort to trusting in Him no matter what comes my way.


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## rgp (Jan 15, 2021)

Knight said:


> Think about it this way RGP
> 
> Mankind has done really great at overcoming hurdles. Stones attached to sticks as weapons gave way metal. Bows & arrows gave way to rifles & bullets. Bayonets not great but better than close contact with a knife.
> 
> ...




  OK, think about it this way Knight..... all you said is true, but mankind does not create hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc...... which kill sometimes thousands in one stroke. That claim to fame belongs to your guy god.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

@fancicoffee13 
May I ask, do you attend Lakewood?


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> @fancicoffee13
> May I ask, do you attend Lakewood?


No, is that where Joel Osteen preaches?  I wish I did!


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> No, is that where Joel Osteen preaches?  I wish I did!


Oh, me too.  I love Joel.  Yes, Lakewood is in Houston.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Oh, me too.  I love Joel.  Yes, Lakewood is in Houston.


After listening to Joyce Meyer for quite awhile, I listened to Joel Osteen and bought his books.  He is such a good preacher!


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> After listening to Joyce Meyer for quite awhile, I listened to Joel Osteen and bought his books.  He is such a good preacher!


I found Joel first, then Joyce, through him.  Joel has his own station on Sirius XM.  It is channel 128.  24/7!

I did see Joel live at Madison Square Garden over 10 years ago.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I found Joel first, then Joyce, through him.  Joel has his own station on Sirius XM.  It is channel 128.  24/7!


Thank you.  Have you listened to David Jeremiah?  I am listening to him now and he has lots to say to help us through this time in the world with this virus going on.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Thank you.  Have you listened to David Jeremiah?  I am listening to him now and he has lots to say to help us through this time in the world with this virus going on.


I know him, but not steadily.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I know him, but not steadily.


I had never given him much of a chance, and when I chose to listen to him for awhile, I got stuck on him like I did with Joel Osteen.  Each one has their own way, or preaching techniques.  Joyce, Joel and David J. are the ones I have liked a lot.


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## Knight (Jan 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, think about it this way Knight..... all you said is true, but mankind does not create hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc...... which kill sometimes thousands in one stroke. That claim to fame belongs to your guy god.


Well you have to admit God learns quick. He flooded the earth killing all but Noah & his family. That didn't work out to well as we all know.  Maybe now his plan is to wipe out his creation little by little by the occasional hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.. OK so it's not on the grand scale but wars and plagues can help take up the slack.

My guy has been around for billions of years now so we know he has patience. Remember this mayhem/death/destruction he causes is a test to see who is worthy of joining him where ever he is. One of those scientific facts that baffles most, where exactly is God. He can't be in our universe since he made it, because you can't make something that is already in place.

To bad the bakers aren't still around, I kind of enjoyed Tammy Fayes make up & the life they led promoting faith.


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 15, 2021)

Knight said:


> Well you have to admit God learns quick. He flooded the earth killing all but Noah & his family. That didn't work out to well as we all know.  Maybe now his plan is to wipe out his creation little by little by the occasional hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.. OK so it's not on the grand scale but wars and plagues can help take up the slack.
> 
> My guy has been around for billions of years now so we know he has patience. Remember this mayhem/death/destruction he causes is a test to see who is worthy of joining him where ever he is. One of those scientific facts that baffles most, where exactly is God. He can't be in our universe since he made it, because you can't make something that is already in place.
> 
> To bad the bakers aren't still around, I kind of enjoyed Tammy Fayes make up & the life they led promoting faith.


His place is in our hearts, for he is always with us to help us and never leave us.  His domain is in the third heaven.


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## MarciKS (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I had never given him much of a chance, and when I chose to listen to him for awhile, I got stuck on him like I did with Joel Osteen.  Each one has their own way, or preaching techniques.  Joyce, Joel and David J. are the ones I have liked a lot.


David Jeremiah is the reason I got saved.

To me Joel Osteen is like God's cheerleader.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 15, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Statue of Moses by Michelangelo.  See those things on his head?
> 
> Not funny, this nonsense was taken literally, and who knows how much suffering and death was prompted by it?


A lot


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 15, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I gladly read about your choice and explainations.  Everyone goes through life making choices, putting them into practice.  I like things that work, really work.  And I have made my choice and I read His Word daily and choose to pattern my life after His Will.  To each his own.  In my eyes, Catholics and Protestants both believe in the same God, just different ways of going about it.  So, both are blessed.  Sorry, that is short and sweet, but I don't want to elaborate on this subject too long.


The Protestant faiths have always come about when a group of people disagree on a pastors or important persons view of the Bible and it’s teachings and meanings.  People split off and form a new group, more to their liking, and a new Protestant religion is born.

In the “American” Catholic Church most people decided to use a form of birth control.  The church, while not happy, did not kick these people out.  

I know very little about the Jewish faith except this faith has also split into weaker less strict groups.  I think they are three different groups from the very strict to the not so strict.  But I am not going to google it.

I think it just shows people or perhaps just Americans chose their religion, and then chose the most convenient, to them, form of that religion.  This says to me no ones religion is that strong.  It is a belief in God that needs to be strong.  Reading the Bible, not necessary.

My son with DS believes in God.  The group home will not take him to church, but they do take the LDS members to church.  When the LDS teachers come into the group home, I allow my son to listen because the word of God, is the word of God.  My son prays to God.  When he is sick he asks me to pray to God that he feels better.  *My son cannot read.  He has an IQ of 53.  His belief, in God, is strong and pure.*


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## Keesha (Jan 15, 2021)

30 day prayer challenge:
Fighting fear & anxiety with the promises of God 

https://www.ibelieve.com/health-bea...ear-and-anxiety-with-the-promises-of-god.html


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## Warrigal (Jan 15, 2021)

Knight said:


> Well you have to admit God learns quick. He flooded the earth killing all but Noah & his family. That didn't work out to well as we all know.  Maybe now his plan is to wipe out his creation little by little by the occasional hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.. OK so it's not on the grand scale but wars and plagues can help take up the slack.
> 
> My guy has been around for billions of years now so we know he has patience. Remember this mayhem/death/destruction he causes is a test to see who is worthy of joining him where ever he is. One of those scientific facts that baffles most, where exactly is God. He can't be in our universe since he made it, because you can't make something that is already in place.
> 
> To bad the bakers aren't still around, I kind of enjoyed Tammy Fayes make up & the life they led promoting faith.


Cynic. I don't believe for one second that you read Genesis as a literal text - that is If you have actually read it as an adult


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## garyt1957 (Jan 16, 2021)

Knight said:


> Well you have to admit God learns quick. He flooded the earth killing all but Noah & his family. That didn't work out to well as we all know.  Maybe now his plan is to wipe out his creation little by little by the occasional hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.. OK so it's not on the grand scale but wars and plagues can help take up the slack.
> 
> My guy has been around for billions of years now so we know he has patience. Remember this mayhem/death/destruction he causes is a test to see who is worthy of joining him where ever he is. One of those scientific facts that baffles most, where exactly is God. He can't be in our universe since he made it, because you can't make something that is already in place.
> 
> To bad the bakers aren't still around, I kind of enjoyed Tammy Fayes make up & the life they led promoting faith.


Jim Bakker is still out there, now shilling some BS covid cure.  And people actually still watch him!


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## Sunny (Jan 16, 2021)

The religion hucksters will be with us as long as there are enough naive people out there to make it profitable.


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## Knight (Jan 16, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Cynic. I don't believe for one second that you read Genesis as a literal text - that is If you have actually read it as an adult


A cynic for sure. The bible is full of nice stories that try to explain the unknown  & generate the image of a benevolent maker that could get angry.

 Garden of Eden 
An attempt to describe the beginning of mankind but fails to explain the timeline & made in "our" image. The images in fossils are a far cry from the popular images presented  as representation of Adam & Eve. Was man the only image until one of the other "our" complained that more representation was needed? 


 Cain and Abel, 
An attempt to show how jealousy can divide and how God dealt with it. 

Noah and the Flood

One of the better stories.  1st. it must be understood is the difference between species & kind. Kind was the reference so at that time the best guess was about 1500 kind multiplied by the quantity about 7000 in total to be cared for. Genesis chapter 8-  4 &5 puts the total at over 300 days feeding & caring for those 7000. Really puzzling is how this could be. 10 animals that only exist in one place
https://www.cbc.ca/kidscbc2/the-feed/ten-animals-that-only-exist-in-one-place

Toss in the amount of "species" there are now in the relatively short time frame & it's mind boggling. 

The diversity of care needed in food, reproduction, carnivores, herbivorous for the 1500 kind defies logic. But it is a nice way to pretend that some supernatural being billions of years old wanted to start over. 



Tower of Babel. I really liked this story. Language is one thing but doesn't explain how the aborigines wound up in Australia 50,000 years ahead of Noah's time or how they survived. 


Probably would have been more exciting to read but it's probably a good thing J.K. Rowling's wasn't a contributor to the bible.


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## Knight (Jan 16, 2021)

I think this topic went in a different direction than the op intended. Do we trust in God was the question.

Trust to do what? Display the kind of anger that killed all but Noah & his family? Or show up & perform some miracles to the betterment on mankind? 

What exactly is the trust for?


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2021)

Knight said:


> A cynic for sure. The bible is full of nice stories that try to explain the unknown  & generate the image of a benevolent maker that could get angry.
> 
> Garden of Eden
> An attempt to describe the beginning of mankind but fails to explain the timeline & made in "our" image. The images in fossils are a far cry from the popular images presented  as representation of Adam & Eve. Was man the only image until one of the other "our" complained that more representation was needed?
> ...


You have just referenced the foundation myths of the Hebrews. They are not meant to be taken literally any more than Homer's epics are. However, it turns out that there actually was a city of Troy. While some Christians read the bible as literally the "inerrant, infallible Word of God" (note the capitalisation) most do not. Modern theologians would suggest that historical and cultural context are important to understanding each separate book of both the old and new collections.

Can you appreciate the difference between these two sentences -

1. Every word written in the Bible is absolutely true
2. Within each book of the bible is an important truth, waiting for the reader to discover it.

One of the shorter books of the OT is Hosea. Hosea had an unfaithful wife but although she caused him much pain he continued to love her. The book is also a reflection on the continual betrayal of God by the people who called themselves the Chosen of God. I've forgotten now how it ends but try reading it and see what you get out of it.

Don't worry about being converted. This book is directed at pre-Christian Hebrew people. Before reading, see if you can find out  what was happening in their world at that time. When you do that, you will better understand what Hosea was on about. The story is timeless enough to speak to modern day Christians who are no less faithless than the Hebrews of Hosea's time. It can also speak to some people having painful marriage problems. It is ultimately a book about forgiveness, even when the transgressor does not deserve to be forgiven. God comes into it too, as you would expect if it is included in the Bible.


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## grahamg (Jan 16, 2021)

Knight said:


> I think this topic went in a different direction than the op intended. Do we trust in God was the question.
> Trust to do what? Display the kind of anger that killed all but Noah & his family? Or show up & perform some miracles to the betterment on mankind?
> What exactly is the trust for?


The thread has come a long way whilst folks have been making their own minds up as to the meaning of the thread title.
I'll take the thread to be based upon a very simple question as to whether anyone has any "faith in God", and my guess would be that's close enough to the intentions of the OP.
Obviously the thread has meandered, hence no harm in your asking the questions you do, and if it doesn't take the thread off topic too far, can I ask the question: "Do any forum members believe our Christian God, is a jealous God, and so someone might at times in their lives better be fearful, lest we stray too far"?


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## Knight (Jan 16, 2021)

grahamg said:


> The thread has come a long way whilst folks have been making their own minds up as to the meaning of the thread title.
> I'll take the thread to be based upon a very simple question as to whether anyone has any "faith in God", and my guess would be that's close enough to the intentions of the OP.
> Obviously the thread has meandered, hence no harm in your asking the questions you do, and if it doesn't take the thread off topic too far, can I ask the question: "Do any forum members believe our Christian God, is a jealous God, and so someone might at times in their lives better be fearful, lest we stray too far"?



Are you asking do people have faith based on fear? If truly a faithful believer then this is your answer

I am Yahweh your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 Exodus 20:2-6


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## Vida May (Jan 16, 2021)

Knight said:


> A cynic for sure. The bible is full of nice stories that try to explain the unknown  & generate the image of a benevolent maker that could get angry.
> 
> Garden of Eden
> An attempt to describe the beginning of mankind but fails to explain the timeline & made in "our" image. The images in fossils are a far cry from the popular images presented  as representation of Adam & Eve. Was man the only image until one of the other "our" complained that more representation was needed?
> ...


I am grateful for trial by peers.  It is not exactly as the bible explains but is an important part of our way of life.  But I don't think we should be stoning people as the Bible says we should do. 

I think the rule of forgiving debt in 7 years is nice.  



> Deuteronomy 15 :: NIV. At the end of *every seven years* you must cancel *debts*. This is how it is to be done: *Every* creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. ... You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any *debt* your brother owes you.



I don't think we should own slaves even though God's chosen people had God's permission to own slaves and their children could inherit them.  God didn't like his people being slaves but it was acceptable to sell a daughter into slavery if it was really necessary.  

It could nice to return to sacrificing animals.


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## Vida May (Jan 16, 2021)

grahamg said:


> The thread has come a long way whilst folks have been making their own minds up as to the meaning of the thread title.
> I'll take the thread to be based upon a very simple question as to whether anyone has any "faith in God", and my guess would be that's close enough to the intentions of the OP.
> Obviously the thread has meandered, hence no harm in your asking the questions you do, and if it doesn't take the thread off topic too far, can I ask the question: "Do any forum members believe our Christian God, is a jealous God, and so someone might at times in their lives better be fearful, lest we stray too far"?



I do not and I am in dismay that this subject is acceptable but not politics.  While I want to see an end to Christianity as it stands now with people interpreting the Bible literally, I also have an awful feeling when bad things are said about the religion when the discussion includes Christians.  I am concerned about it how it feels to be Christian when the religion is being attacked.  

On the other hand, I feel awful when Christians believe I do not know God and morals because I am not Christian.


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## MarciKS (Jan 16, 2021)




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## grahamg (Jan 16, 2021)

Knight said:


> Are you asking do people have faith based on fear? If truly a faithful believer then this is your answer
> 
> I am Yahweh your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
> 
> Exodus 20:2-6


No, I don't think I'm asking another question than the one I posted about whether forum members believe what I'm sure I've been told in church many years ago, that the Christian God "is a jealous God"?

However, as you've kindly provided the biblical extract,  the significance of the words were as stated, when it was written was in relation to trying to persuade "the flock" not to worship "graven images" etc.!).


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2021)

Don't be too concerned Vida May. 

No-one is abusing anyone in this thread. There are differences of opinion, to be sure, and some posters have no understanding of the thought processes and beliefs of some other posters but on the whole things have remained quite calm. 260+ posts indicates quite a lot of interest.

The thread will be closed if anyone becomes abusive.


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## Vida May (Jan 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Don't be too concerned Vida May.
> 
> No-one is abusing anyone in this thread. There are differences of opinion, to be sure, and some posters have no understanding of the thought processes and beliefs of some other posters but on the whole things have remained quite calm. 260+ posts indicates quite a lot of interest.
> 
> The thread will be closed if anyone becomes abusive.



It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2021)

We are challenged all the time Vida May. That is how we grow. This is true for everyone, not just Christians.


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## grahamg (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.


If questioning ourselves is harmful, (and I agree to question yourself too much can be destructive, blaming yourself for everything for example), I'd suggest this aspect could be outweighed by those it might assist as another forum member has suggested, and I certainly did not read your posts as being harmful at all.  

Bear in mind too, that there is this man Richard Dawkins who appears to have made it his life's goal to try to undermine all religions, (what makes him think he has to so help us all out of our "delusions", as he would characterise it, you have to wonder?), so you've a way to go yet before you reach "his great heights"!


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## Rosemarie (Jan 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> The thread has come a long way whilst folks have been making their own minds up as to the meaning of the thread title.
> I'll take the thread to be based upon a very simple question as to whether anyone has any "faith in God", and my guess would be that's close enough to the intentions of the OP.
> Obviously the thread has meandered, hence no harm in your asking the questions you do, and if it doesn't take the thread off topic too far, can I ask the question: "Do any forum members believe our Christian God, is a jealous God, and so someone might at times in their lives better be fearful, lest we stray too far"?


Yes, he is definitely a jealous, vengeful God. 'Thou shalt have no other God but me', sums up his attitude nicely. It also suggests that perhaps there were other contenders for the position of supreme ruler. His command was aimed at the Israelites, whose sojourn in the wilderness was long enough for the original people to have died of old age and a new generation to have been born.


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Yes, he is definitely a jealous, vengeful God. 'Thou shalt have no other God but me', sums up his attitude nicely. It also suggests that perhaps there were other contenders for the position of supreme ruler. His command was aimed at the Israelites, whose sojourn in the wilderness was long enough for the original people to have died of old age and a new generation to have been born.


At the time that was written there was a contest in that part of the world between pantheism and monotheism. The Hebrews were monotheistic but some didn't mind having an each way bet. Much of the OT is devoted to calling them back to monotheism.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> At the time that was written there was a contest in that part of the world between pantheism and monotheism. The Hebrews were monotheistic but some didn't mind having an each way bet. Much of the OT is devoted to calling them back to monotheism.


The golden calf which the Israelites moulded was probably a representation of Isis, the Egyptian goddess. The God of the Old Testament is traditionally seen as male, so there may have been rivalry between the two.
There has also been a suggestion that the Hebrews were followers of Akhenaton, who believed in one God, and were forced to flee Egypt when he was deposed.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> I do not and I am in dismay that this subject is acceptable but not politics.  While I want to see an end to Christianity as it stands now with people interpreting the Bible literally, I also have an awful feeling when bad things are said about the religion when the discussion includes Christians.  I am concerned about it how it feels to be Christian when the religion is being attacked.
> 
> On the other hand, I feel awful when Christians believe I do not know God and morals because I am not Christian.


Politics on any forum can get very nasty and personal which, I suspect, is why the subject is not allowed, although I wish it was.  But peace in the forum is best.  While I believe there is only ONE God, many do not.  Many confuse Jesus Christ with God the father and do not realize that there is a clear difference.

I would not worry about what us Christians believe or don’t believe.  Every single person’s belief in God or non belief in God, or belief in a different God is different and unique.  Yes, there are many crazies out there and we all have to worry about them, Christian or not, because they are crazy and fanatics.  But crazy and fanatic is against forum rules, I think.  

You are correct many interpret the Bible literally and I fail to understand why, but there is a lot I fail to understand.  I accept other people’s belief.  The Christian religions, there are many, have and not been attacked on this thread, they have been discussed, which was not the purpose of the thread.  But, oh well, we often go off thread topic.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.


It depends on your definition of abusive.  Sometimes on threads there can be a bit of rudeness, names might be called, education levels might be questioned, your spelling and grammar might be challenged by the spelling and grammar police, what you write might be misinterpreted, and other stuff can happen.

I am a Christian, Catholic, and I question my belief all the time, especially in stressful times but it does not harm me, or anyone, and I am strongly in my belief for the questioning of it.  The old “seek and you shall find” answers.  But not gold, you never find gold, or money, or untold riches.  .  *You do find answers, and the answer is often NO!  *

You are welcome to discuss whatever here, why not?, everyone else is


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## rgp (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.




 How is that harmful ?


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Yes, he is definitely a jealous, vengeful God. 'Thou shalt have no other God but me', sums up his attitude nicely. It also suggests that perhaps there were other contenders for the position of supreme ruler. His command was aimed at the Israelites, whose sojourn in the wilderness was long enough for the original people to have died of old age and a new generation to have been born.


I thought it was “before me”, not “but me“ which would indicates a power grab.  Kind of like Zeus head God the the Romans, I think.  It’s hard to remember they had so many.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.


Obviously, that person has doubts and what is wrong with questioning authority?  If the authority in question is honest, no harm, no foul.

So what if a Christian, or anyone questions.  The only way to keep people in belief is never to question?


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## Sunny (Jan 17, 2021)

Yes, Aneeda, I agree, that "but me" puts a whole different slant on things. And I think it is an error. I googled the Ten Commandments and found the "but me" translation also. Then I looked it up in my Bible (yes, I have one) and it said "Before me."  That is the translation I have always seen.

"But me" means you are allowed to believe in one God, period.

"Before me" means that other Gods exist, but this one is the head God, in other words, he has declared himself the boss. The other gods are minor characters, and you don't have to pay much attention to them.

There also seems to be confusion as to which Commandment it is. It turned up as the first, second, and third commandment, depending on which web site you went to!  No one seems to know exactly where it is, much less what it means.  I think the author of these commandments could have used a good editor!


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> I also have an awful feeling when bad things are said about the religion when the discussion includes Christians.  I am concerned about it how it feels to be Christian when the religion is being attacked.
> 
> On the other hand, I feel awful when Christians believe I do not know God and morals because I am not Christian.


When Christians insist that it's their way or the highway, they open themselves up for resistance.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

I have Hebrew texts my grandma left me and they are well over 100 years old with English translations.  I'll look up the "but" me and "before" me question as it is real important and thanks for bringing it up.  By real important I mean sociologically, not religiously.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 17, 2021)

Knight said:


> Tower of Babel. I really liked this story. Language is one thing but doesn't explain how the aborigines wound up in Australia 50,000 years ahead of Noah's time or how they survived.


Well if you believe the Bible, the earth is only 2000 years old. Or is it 6000?


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## MarciKS (Jan 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> When Christians insist that it's their way or the highway, they open themselves up for resistance.


Not all of us are like that.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> It is not a concern that someone here will be abusive, but that a Christian could start questioning his/her belief and that could be harmful.


If you can question your belief based on some posts on an internet forum, you're belief wasn't very strong to begin with.


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## MarciKS (Jan 17, 2021)

I don't ever question my faith. I'm more concerned about being around so many judgmental non-believers.


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## Liberty (Jan 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> It depends on your definition of abusive.  Sometimes on threads there can be a bit of rudeness, names might be called, education levels might be questioned, your spelling and grammar might be challenged by the spelling and grammar police, what you write might be misinterpreted, and other stuff can happen.
> 
> I am a Christian, Catholic, and I question my belief all the time, especially in stressful times but it does not harm me, or anyone, and I am strongly in my belief for the questioning of it.  The old “seek and you shall find” answers.  But not gold, you never find gold, or money, or untold riches.  . *You do find answers, and the answer is often NO!  *
> 
> You are welcome to discuss whatever here, why not?, everyone else is





Keesha said:


> Yes. Retribution from a past life. Yes trauma from complex PSTD but the strangest thing is that I can forgive others who have severely wronged me but have a really hard time forgiving myself.
> I mentally torture myself and if Gods message is not to harm any of his children, I need to remember that I am one of his children also. Yesterday was a light bulb moment which I hope I never forget. I’ve had a very strange and unusual life . If a stranger ever caught glimpses of my life they might instantly draw conclusions. Not that I care all that much but it’s also something I need to let go of.
> 
> So I’m currently working on loving myself as I love others. Forgiving myself as I forgive others and letting anything that doesn’t serve me go.


Very true Keesha.  We think of ourselves more highly than we should.  This can also mean we take things on more seriously and hold ourselves to a higher or more self incriminating perceived standard, even higher than God's, which can trap us into a psychological never forgiving cycle.  Life is about letting go.  Watch out for the cycles of energy.  If we can forgive others, the mission isn't accomplished until we also forgive ourselves. That means believing and acting according to our spiritual ideal.


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## Liberty (Jan 17, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> I don't ever question my faith. I'm more concerned about being around so many judgmental non-believers.


There is a beautiful prayer for those that are "belief challenged".  "Lord I believe, Lord help my unbelief".

We can become aware of what we believe, or stay "open" to receive.  If we will receive it we can learn.  Otherwise we have closed minds.  Not much can drop in a closed up mind...lol.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> Not all of us are like that.


Of course Not!


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> If you can question your belief based on some posts on an internet forum, you're belief wasn't very strong to begin with.


I disagree.  People make points, good points, points we should think about and research, points that bring questions.  As for judging how strong someone belief is, someone you don’t even know, wow, just wow.  No one gets to judge anyone belief except God.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> Whoops, do you garden?  The soil we need for gardening is not lifeless.  When soil is lifeless it is infertile and nothing can grow in it.  However, our thoughts change and grow and are very important.  Things will be as we think they are and a lot of drama can come out of disagreeing.


Yup lots of drama


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> Yes and for that reason, I do not look forward to the Christian heaven.


Then refuse to go to Christian heaven, you do have a choice.  Go, or don’t go.  You will not be forced into heaven.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Ok, the things you talked about are incidents that happen.  We are to be strong in character, not to resort to violence, bitterness, division, etc.  We need to help those that need help, show kindness, and forgiveness.  Animals are the same, they forgive us when we correct them and they still love us and trust us.  Natural disasters will happen and we go forward and build again and go forward with life.


Well, some animals kill and eat us, just saying.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> When Christians insist that it's their way or the highway, they open themselves up for resistance.


There are always stupid people everywhere insisting they are right, when they are not.  Remember the old saying “my minds made up, don’t confuse me with facts”.  This saying was popular when I was a teenager, but oh so true now in oh so many ways.


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## grahamg (Jan 17, 2021)

I suppose it is worth listening occasionally to those who profess to have a great deal of faith, or those paid to try to minister to others, in all kinds of situations people find themselves in(?).

A minister/vicar I once knew told me that before he became ordained he'd had money troubles, and went off somewhere with thoughts of ending his life, so awful did the world appear to him for a while. He became a very well liked vicar of the church of England, and although I cant remember any of his sermons, (one of which my eight year old daughter did her best to disrupt, much to the annoyance of the vicars wife!), he did speak of St. Francis of Assisi quite a lot.


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Well if you believe the Bible, the earth is only 2000 years old. Or is it 6000?


I understand the 6000 years was a figure calculated by some English bishop. Perhaps someone asked him how old the earth was and he tried to oblige by counting the generations of the geneology of Jesus listed in the NT. Perhaps he didn't like the evolving science of the day which revealed fossil evidence that supported current theories of evolution (which existed before Charles Darwin, by the way). Whatever the reason, he was wrong, not only in the number, but also in looking for scientific answers in a theological text.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 17, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> I wondered why 'he' just seems to sit back and watch Covid-19 ravage the world.


I’m sorry you feel that way, sickness and death are meaningful moments of life, not to be feared or frightened of but to be experienced and embraced.


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## Phoenix (Jan 17, 2021)

Some people believe in God and some don't.  We can't be justifiably lumped together.


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## garyt1957 (Jan 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I understand the 6000 years was a figure calculated by some English bishop. Perhaps someone asked him how old the earth was and he tried to oblige by counting the generations of the geneology of Jesus listed in the NT. Perhaps he didn't like the evolving science of the day which revealed fossil evidence that supported current theories of evolution (which existed before Charles Darwin, by the way). Whatever the reason, he was wrong, not only in the number, but also in looking for scientific answers in a theological text.


Evidently some people believe that though in spite of all the science showing otherwise. I was talking to a guy at work a couple years ago and he was talking about the religious quacks who actually believe the earth is flat. I replied "What about the nuts who think it's only 600 years old?" To which he replied "Oh, there's actual proof of that!" Turns out he's a believer in that. I mentioned carbon dating and he says it's bad science and not real. O-kay.


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## Phoenix (Jan 17, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Evidently some people believe that though in spite of all the science showing otherwise. I was talking to a guy at work a couple years ago and he was talking about the religious quacks who actually believe the earth is flat. I replied "What about the nuts who think it's only 600 years old?" To which he replied "Oh, there's actual proof of that!" Turns out he's a believer in that. I mentioned carbon dating and he says it's bad science and not real. O-kay.


I was raised around people who believe like the guy you were talking to.  I no longer spend time with them, haven't in years.


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## Vida May (Jan 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> If questioning ourselves is harmful, (and I agree to question yourself too much can be destructive, blaming yourself for everything for example), I'd suggest this aspect could be outweighed by those it might assist as another forum member has suggested, and I certainly did not read your posts as being harmful at all.
> 
> Bear in mind too, that there is this man Richard Dawkins who appears to have made it his life's goal to try to undermine all religions, (what makes him think he has to so help us all out of our "delusions", as he would characterise it, you have to wonder?), so you've a way to go yet before you reach "his great heights"!



Oh dear,  I don't like Richard Dawkins but I also dislike Christianity and its influence on education and other national decisions.  Especially at the moment, I think we are in big trouble and this has a lot to do with religion.  Right now we could use a picture of Jesus wearing a mask and saying "well maybe we should wash our hands and wear a mask".

One of the worst problems with Christianity is what it did to the pagan temples and knowledge that set medicine back a few thousand years and still plagues us today despite our public education system and advanced science. 

  I am so hurt by the culture war we are in bringing us to violence in the US because those who put their faith in science and those who put their faith in their religion are pitted against each other.  Our liberty depends on science and our knowledge of that has been replaced with a Christian mythology of the founding of our democratic social order.

There is a serious Christian divide between those who want to give Christianity all the credit for our success and those churches that preach distrust of our government and misunderstand our social order and this has become violent and we may see even more violence led by well-meaning Christians who have sown the seeds of war on the status quo.

Forgive me, perhaps I should receive a warning that I must get out of the thread.   I don't want to be banned but everyone knows "In God we Trust" has strong political ramifications.   This is the wrong time to discuss "Do we really "trust in God", because of the life and death importance of this question.  "Do we really "trust in God" should not mean at this time, not wearing a mask, and that goes directly to the forbidden subject. How do we get people to see this is about public health issue instead of an individual freedom issue when the churches are very politically involved and someone very important, would have us believe God gives him the authority to lead while the churches preach distrust of government and support this man who is very disruptive to the status quo.   That makes want we believe about God very important and how do we keep this a light and inconsequential discussion?  I am sorry, . I wish I never got involved in this thread if it means being banned, but it is too late now- there are serious consequences to what religious leaders do and what people believe. We are experiencing violence because the pandemic is killing people and leading to many problems. Not a good time to discuss religion.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

Wonderfully expressed @Vida May.
Especially "Right now we could use a picture of Jesus wearing a mask and saying "well maybe we should wash our hands and wear a mask."

Why is there a reason to ban your post?  There is not.


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## Sunny (Jan 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, some animals kill and eat us, just saying.


Absolutely. "Nature is red in tooth and claw." Don't get too warm and fuzzy about animals "forgiving" us.


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## Phoenix (Jan 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, some animals kill and eat us, just saying.


And we kill and eat them.


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## MarciKS (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> Oh dear,  I don't like Richard Dawkins but I also dislike Christianity and its influence on education and other national decisions.  Especially at the moment, I think we are in big trouble and this has a lot to do with religion.  Right now we could use a picture of Jesus wearing a mask and saying "well maybe we should wash our hands and wear a mask".
> 
> One of the worst problems with Christianity is what it did to the pagan temples and knowledge that set medicine back a few thousand years and still plagues us today despite our public education system and advanced science.
> 
> ...


if people don't believe in God or have any faith in him...no picture of God is gonna change that.


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## Mr. Ed (Jan 17, 2021)

I possess no claim of knowledge


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May, you are right to question Christian leadership when it leads to destruction. I wish I had more to offer than this. I see no reason why you should be banned.


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## Knight (Jan 17, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Well if you believe the Bible, the earth is only 2000 years old. Or is it 6000?


The 2000 is the time After Death as in 2000AD. The 6000 is the biblical time line for creation of heaven & earth. The bible is not a fact filled record. It's full of nice stories trying to explain the varying physical attributes & anti social differences in people that were present then & now. 

Questioning the stories or if there is a God will generate a lot of posts. There is no right or wrong in the different posts just a good way to entertain oneself & keep the old gray matter active.


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## MarciKS (Jan 17, 2021)

The best example I can give of faith is this:

You see a parent at the pool trying to talk little Timmy into hopping into the water with the words..."it's ok I'll catch you" and Timmy just automatically trusts because he knows Dad is there and he believes dad will catch him. Even though he doesn't know for sure. Dad could walk away and let Timmy blubber in the water for all Timmy knows.

Faith in God is basically the same thing. You have faith in a being you can't see to save you from this awful world. You have no proof per se but you have hope. Faith Hope & Love always go together. God wants us to trust him with that innocent childlike trust. The problem is that we don't get to keep our innocence as children. The real world forces us to take our eyes off of Christ and once we start looking around we lose that trust. 

To me the bible is a guide on how to live as a Christian. It is our only way to get to know God. And yes...I can't see him and I don't know if he's real. But that's the problem...people always need tangible proof. God wants that blind faith. He wants us to need him and to seek him. If you are not open to that kind of thing then you have little chance of ever getting there. 

You look around and you see all this Covid and your first thought is where is God in all of this. He's there. But if I start blaming him for this and refuse to believe that there is so much more that he has in store for us that has nothing to do with what's going on...I'm taking my eyes off the Lord and the big picture. For me the big picture has little to do with life here. It's the after that I'm concerned about. As long as everyone demands tangible proof and refuses to look in God's direction and give him a chance...then he's going to sit and wait for you to come to your senses. Yes I have no proof of this. It's just what I've been taught. And what I've learned over the years in my relationship with God. 

You are offered every opportunity to get to know God but until you make the decision for yourself...no one can make you do it. Other Christians can lead you to the water but we can't make you drink it. You have to thirst for it.

And now I'm out of this thread because this is just too much for me.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Vida May, you are right to question Christian leadership when it leads to destruction. I wish I had more to offer than this. I see no reason why you should be banned.


Huh?  What?  I am terribly sleepy and tired, but banned from what?


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## Vida May (Jan 17, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> if people don't believe in God or have any faith in him...no picture of God is gonna change that.


The picture is for the believers, not the none believers.


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## Vida May (Jan 17, 2021)

Thank you everyone, but what I said is very highly political and I am taking myself out of the forum before I get banned.  I will return when I calm down and I will stay out of this thread.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

Oy vay


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Vida May said:


> Oh dear,  I don't like Richard Dawkins but I also dislike Christianity and its influence on education and other national decisions.  Especially at the moment, I think we are in big trouble and this has a lot to do with religion.  Right now we could use a picture of Jesus wearing a mask and saying "well maybe we should wash our hands and wear a mask".
> 
> One of the worst problems with Christianity is what it did to the pagan temples and knowledge that set medicine back a few thousand years and still plagues us today despite our public education system and advanced science.
> 
> ...


What?  You have said nothing to be banned for as far as I know.  I disagree with much of what you have said especially that we are experiencing violence because the pandemic is killing people.  I have no ideal how you made that link.  But since you will not read what I am writing I won’t write it.

In any event with the current level of sleep deprivation that I am experiencing due to an issue beyond my control, not the pandemic but my puppy, what you have said will go unanswered by me.


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## RadishRose (Jan 17, 2021)

Knight said:


> The 2000 is the time After Death


*AD* stands for the Latin phrase anno domini, which means in the *year* of our Lord.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> When Christians insist that it's their way or the highway, they open themselves up for resistance.


If people know they are likely to be offended by these sort of threads, they should avoid reading them.


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## RadishRose (Jan 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I understand the 6000 years was a figure calculated by some English bishop. Perhaps someone asked him how old the earth was and he tried to oblige by counting the generations of the geneology of Jesus listed in the NT. Perhaps he didn't like the evolving science of the day which revealed fossil evidence that supported current theories of evolution (which existed before Charles Darwin, by the way). Whatever the reason, he was wrong, not only in the number, but also in looking for scientific answers in a theological text.



Sun, 17 January 2021 = *4th of Sh'vat, 5781*
*https://www.hebcal.com/converter/*


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 17, 2021)

That is great, you take your son when you can.  One thing caught my attention.  Reading the Bible is not necessary.  How are you going to know what it says, and be guided by it's words?  A car needs gas, you need food and air, etc.  Your soul or spirit has got to have the Word in it to be fed.  Being depraved of the Word by choice is not good at all.  Even if you just read one Proverb a day would help.  Wisdom.  Just one a day.  


Aneeda72 said:


> The Protestant faiths have always come about when a group of people disagree on a pastors or important persons view of the Bible and it’s teachings and meanings.  People split off and form a new group, more to their liking, and a new Protestant religion is born.
> 
> In the “American” Catholic Church most people decided to use a form of birth control.  The church, while not happy, did not kick these people out.
> 
> ...


hi


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## fancicoffee13 (Jan 17, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> David Jeremiah is the reason I got saved.
> 
> To me Joel Osteen is like God's cheerleader.


Joel Osteen is great!  A lot of people really need a lot of cheerleading!  You would be surprised how many people are down on themselves, feel like they are worthless, have been abused or left, on and on.  Certain preachers get in touch with certain people.


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> To me Joel Osteen is like God's cheerleader.


I think that's an excellent observation.  Too many people are snobs when it comes to Joel, IMO


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 17, 2021)

There was a great Irish comedian called Dave Allen who frequently made jokes about the church...
In one, he spoke about a priest and an atheist discussing the existence of god.

Priest:  You are like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.
Atheist:  You too are like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there.  The difference is
               that you have found it!

And that is IMO, the truth of it.   Believers need something to believe in so they invent  a 'God'  to believe in and who will see them OK if they bow town to it.  Never mind all the capriciousness  and evil that this god exhibits.  You believe in this god and you'll be OK.

I find it infinitely more comfortable to believe that there is no god and when we die, we die.  No heaven, no hell, no afterlife.

It reminds me of another joke....

A man had four sons.  Three became priests and the other became a doctor.
One morning all three priests said that they had a dream that they were in heaven and it was just like home with them all sitting round the fire.
The doctor said he dreamt that he was in hell and it was just like home.  He couldn't get near the fire for bl**dy priests!


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## Pepper (Jan 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Huh?  What?  I am terribly sleepy and tired, but banned from what?


The doggie park.  They banned you from the doggie park.  Now go back to sleep.

*lol.  *


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Sun, 17 January 2021 = *4th of Sh'vat, 5781*
> *https://www.hebcal.com/converter/*


And in Jesus' day, along with the Hebrew calendar, the years would have also been numbered in terms of the current ruler - eg in the 5th Year of Tiberius Caesar or the 1st Year of Herod the Great. People like us, who live in modern times, often forget that ancient civilisations had different ways to us, not to mention different language structures to contemporary English.


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> The doggie park.  They banned you from the doggie park.  Now go back to sleep.
> 
> *lol.  *


There’s a doggie park?  Where?  In heaven?  I’m not sleeping Bella is sleeping on my dang foot again.  What is with this dog and my foot?


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## Aneeda72 (Jan 17, 2021)

fancicoffee13 said:


> That is great, you take your son when you can.  One thing caught my attention.  Reading the Bible is not necessary.  How are you going to know what it says, and be guided by it's words?  A car needs gas, you need food and air, etc.  Your soul or spirit has got to have the Word in it to be fed.  Being depraved of the Word by choice is not good at all.  Even if you just read one Proverb a day would help.  Wisdom.  Just one a day.
> 
> hi


My son can not read, lots of people can not read.  It says something in the Bible about how you must enter as a small child, small children do not read.  Lots of people do not read and yet they believe in God.  Yes, the Bible is not necessary, IMO.

And just because you can not read the Bible, you are not cut off from God.  After all the early Christians and those that lived and served Jesus Christ did not have a Bible to read.  A Bible was not available for decades.   Geez


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## Knight (Jan 17, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> *AD* stands for the Latin phrase anno domini, which means in the *year* of our Lord.


Thank you for the clarification.  The time span between creation & the birth of a son has never been defined. Science claims billions of years best guess for those with faith is ?

 I wonder if the earth will sustain life as we know it until another birth comes along to prove that God is real. 

I don't think this qualifies as a Jesus wannabe


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## Keesha (Jan 17, 2021)

Liberty said:


> Very true Keesha.  We think of ourselves more highly than we should.  This can also mean we take things on more seriously and hold ourselves to a higher or more self incriminating perceived standard, even higher than God's, which can trap us into a psychological never forgiving cycle.  Life is about letting go.  Watch out for the cycles of energy.  If we can forgive others, the mission isn't accomplished until we also forgive ourselves. That means believing and acting according to our spiritual ideal.


Really good points Liberty. There is such thing as being grandiose in a negative self defeating manner. Control freaks who can’t let go give  a message to the universe that  they can do a much better job than God. No wonder they're stressed. 

I’ve been reading lately that the most important things in life to consider are; to love self and others, to forgive self and others and to let go of anything that causes stress. Note: Not meaning stop doing housework or yard work cause it causes stress but to change the way you think about it so it creates a sense of harmony in your life.

Sometimes simplifying things makes it easier especially for ‘over thinkers,’ or people who tend to complicate things.


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## grahamg (Jan 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Wonderfully expressed @Vida May.
> Especially "Right now we could use a picture of Jesus wearing a mask and saying "well maybe we should wash our hands and wear a mask."
> 
> Why is there a reason to ban your post?  There is not.


I agree, very well expressed, no reason to ban IMHO because no one offended here I'd guess, and unfortunately still feeling the need to take way too much responsibility for any negatives anyone might find in any post I've seen!


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