# Doc wont see patients if no vax



## Pauline1954

Im hearing  this now.  Anyone else hear this too now?


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## Murrmurr

I've heard it, but it isn't happening here. Some medical groups here are steering unvaxxed patients toward online appointments, though.


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## PamfromTx

No, haven't heard that.  But, a big notice is on front door to wear a mask.   p.s.  And I've been to see my family doctor a couple of times this month.


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## Pauline1954

Murrmurr said:


> I've heard it, but it isn't happening here. Some medical groups here are steering unvaxxed patients toward online appointments, though.


Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.  . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me.  Its not safe from everything Ive learned.  And I did a ton of research to come to this decision.


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## Irwin

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.


More disinformation. He was fully vaccinated in March.
https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...-covid-19-vaccine-on-march-2021-idUSL1N2PD1UX


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## Alligatorob

Not here, not that I know of anyway, they don't even ask.  Maybe they have access to records, I don't know.  Some of the clinics around here do require masks, but not all.  At my GP's office there is just a sign saying masks are required for the unvaccinated, but I don't see any enforcement.  Few people wear masks there.

Don't know that I would make this decision as a doctor, but I believe doctors like all of us should have the right to.


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## Pink Biz

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like* Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else. * . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me. Its not safe from everything Ive learned. *And I did a ton of research* to come to this decision.


*Apparently, your research didn't include discovering that the CEO of Pfizer is fully vaccinated.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pfizer-ceovaccine-idUSL1N2PD1UX*


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## Murrmurr

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.  . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me.  Its not safe from everything Ive learned.  And I did a ton of research to come to this decision.


It won't surprise me if multiple cases hit the Supreme Court within a few years. Stands to reason, imo.


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## win231

Irwin said:


> More disinformation. He was fully vaccinated in March.
> https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...-covid-19-vaccine-on-march-2021-idUSL1N2PD1UX


Just because they're saying he was vaccinated, doesn't mean he was.  Easy to see why they would claim he was vaccinated.  The last thing they want is to discourage anyone (by example) from getting the vaccine.


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## win231

I never heard that & if I did, I'd say "goodbye" & change doctors.


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## Pink Biz

win231 said:


> Just because they're saying he was vaccinated, doesn't mean he was.  Easy to see why they would claim he was vaccinated.  The last thing they want is to discourage anyone (by example) from getting the vaccine.




@AlbertBourla
·
Mar 10

Excited to receive my 2nd dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech #COVID19 vaccine. There's nothing I want more than for my loved ones and people around the world to have the same opportunity. Although the journey is far from over, we are working tirelessly to beat the virus.


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## Pauline1954

Murrmurr said:


> It won't surprise me if multiple cases hit the Supreme Court within a few years. Stands to reason, imo.


Ive heard and also frontline doctors a huge group is suing. But i havent gone down that rabbit hole, yet.


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## win231

Pink Biz said:


> @AlbertBourla
> ·
> Mar 10
> 
> Excited to receive my 2nd dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech #COVID19 vaccine. There's nothing I want more than for my loved ones and people around the world to have the same opportunity. Although the journey is far from over, we are working tirelessly to beat the virus.
> View attachment 180952


Interesting - I'm familiar with syringes because I take Insulin 2-3 times/day.  I tried to enlarge the photo for 2 reasons:
1.  That doesn't look like a Covid syringe; it looks like a common Insulin syringe, which has a much-shorter needle because Insulin goes into fat tissue; not muscle like a Covid or Flu shot, which requires a much-longer needle.

2.  The orange cap that protects the needle (that each Insulin syringe comes with) is still attached.  Impossible to inject anything unless it's removed.
Photo Op?


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## Pink Biz

Pauline1954 said:


> Ive heard and also *frontline doctors* a huge group is suing. But i havent gone down that rabbit hole, yet.


*Here, I'll give you a head start on your research.

https://time.com/6092368/americas-frontline-doctors-covid-19-misinformation/*


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## SeaBreeze

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like *Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either*. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.  . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me.  Its not safe from everything Ive learned.  And I did a ton of research to come to this decision.



Where did you get this disinformation and lies Pauline?  Have you been visiting conspiracy sites or the dark side of social media?  Those who spread these falsehoods are part of the reason so many in the United States have refused to get vaccinated against a deadly worldwide pandemic.  And part of the reason that the hospitals are still overflowing with unvaccinated people who are taking up beds or dying.  Please check your info before forwarding it to others.

  What is your source for your claim that the CEO isn't getting vaccinated?  He received his second vaccine on March 10th.







AlbertBourla

@AlbertBourla
Excited to receive my 2nd dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech #COVID19 vaccine. There's nothing I want more than for my loved ones and people around the world to have the same opportunity. Although the journey is far from over, we are working tirelessly to beat the virus.




12:40 PM · Mar 10, 2021


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## Pauline1954

Pink Biz said:


> *Apparently, your research didn't include discovering that the CEO of Pfizer is fully vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pfizer-ceovaccine-idUSL1N2PD1UX*



Awe so he did get it. I heard this a few months back but never saw he'd gotten. Now what about the cdc and fda? Hear anything the last couple days if they told their employees to get it or else?


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## SeaBreeze

Pink Biz said:


> *Apparently, your research didn't include discovering that the CEO of Pfizer is fully vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pfizer-ceovaccine-idUSL1N2PD1UX*


Thank you.  Letting disinformation spread without providing truth and facts, has helped to get us to the point where we are today.


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## Pink Biz

Pauline1954 said:


> Awe so he did get it. I heard this a few months back but never saw he'd gotten. Now what about the cdc and fda? Hear anything the last couple days if they told their employees to get it or else?


*Google is your best friend in this instance, Pauline.  Go look it up for yourself*.


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## Irwin

The founders of America's Frontline Doctors were arrested for participating in the January 6 insurrection.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Frontline_Doctors


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## John cycling

win231 said:


> Just because they're saying he was vaccinated, doesn't mean he was.  Easy to see why they would claim he was vaccinated.  The last thing they want is to discourage anyone (by example) from getting the vaccine.



Exactly.  Contrary to some of the postings here, I've seen reports that vaccination company employees are not required to be shot with the poisons.  Additionally, there have been cases of vaccination syringes found that contained nothing more than saline solution. 

Regardless of that, whether any person has poisons injected should be the choice of each and every individual person, with absolutely no coercion or pressure, not greedy inhumane strangers who live in ivory towers and broadcast their demands and misinformation through their corporate owned media.


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## SeaBreeze

win231 said:


> 2. The orange cap that protects the needle (that each Insulin syringe comes with) is still attached. Impossible to inject anything unless it's removed.
> Photo Op?


Come on now win.  This is not a conspiracy site here, are you seriously trying to say that this picture was taken with an orange cap on the needle?  Do you think the CEO or the doctor would be so stupid as to think that would go unnoticed by all who saw the photo?    Just because I had a few minutes to was on this, I blew it up a bit.  To me it looks like the handle on the drawer, which may have been a gold or copper color.  But it's not a cap on the needle, a needle that shows someone is getting their second injection.


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## win231

SeaBreeze said:


> Come on now win.  This is not a conspiracy site here, are you seriously trying to say that this picture was taken with an orange cap on the needle?  Do you think the CEO or the doctor would be so stupid as to think that would go unnoticed by all who saw the photo?    Just because I had a few minutes to was on this, I blew it up a bit.  To me it looks like the handle on the drawer, which may have been a gold or copper color.  But it's not a cap on the needle, a needle that shows someone is getting their second injection.
> 
> View attachment 180958


It's not any clearer than it was before.  Sometimes, when a photo is enlarged, it becomes blurry.  Maybe someone else can see it better, but I don't see an exposed needle.


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## Pauline1954

I guess im bait tonight.   some of my info was out dated. But just a couple weeks ago the cdc said they are not mandating for their employees. I have misplaced that link but saw it. I have so many links with short clips.. from the understanding ive gotten the federal gov does not mandate vaccinations.  However, they can get the corporations to help do it for them by pressuring us and firing us.  We do have protection from our civil liberties but  yep I feel any chance big gov can grab power over people they will do it in a way to make it uncomfortable without directly telling us we must get it.  This way that havent tried to force it and violate our rights.   

My search has been about injuries and deaths from the vaccinations.  Everything else are just tidbits or things i glimpsed.   Its this injuries and deaths that I have been learning about and they are very sad and horrid.


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## Pauline1954

SeaBreeze said:


> Come on now win.  This is not a conspiracy site here, are you seriously trying to say that this picture was taken with an orange cap on the needle?  Do you think the CEO or the doctor would be so stupid as to think that would go unnoticed by all who saw the photo?    Just because I had a few minutes to was on this, I blew it up a bit.  To me it looks like the handle on the drawer, which may have been a gold or copper color.  But it's not a cap on the needle, a needle that shows someone is getting their second injection.
> 
> View attachment 180958


I saw this and laughed. Like what.


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## Pauline1954

SeaBreeze said:


> Where did you get this disinformation and lies Pauline?  Have you been visiting conspiracy sites or the dark side of social media?  Those who spread these falsehoods are part of the reason so many in the United States have refused to get vaccinated against a deadly worldwide pandemic.  And part of the reason that the hospitals are still overflowing with unvaccinated people who are taking up beds or dying.  Please check your info before forwarding it to others.
> 
> What is your source for your claim that the CEO isn't getting vaccinated?  He received his second vaccine on March 10th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlbertBourla
> @AlbertBourla
> Excited to receive my 2nd dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech #COVID19 vaccine. There's nothing I want more than for my loved ones and people around the world to have the same opportunity. Although the journey is far from over, we are working tirelessly to beat the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 12:40 PM · Mar 10, 2021





Sure, when you show me the needle going into his arm.


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## SeaBreeze

win231 said:


> It's not any clearer than it was before.  Sometimes, when a photo is enlarged, it becomes blurry.  Maybe someone else can see it better, but I don't see an exposed needle.


Yeah, the cap must have been on.....very suspicious photo there.  Maybe this thread should be in the Coronavirus Forum, now also known as the Conspiracy Forum thanks to many of the latest posts.


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## Tish

Nope haven't heard it over here in Aus either.


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## Pauline1954

Pink Biz said:


> *Google is your best friend in this instance, Pauline.  Go look it up for yourself*.


Dont be a wisecrack. Google suppresses too. Or no maybe you believe everything read.


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## SeaBreeze

Pauline1954 said:


> I saw this and laughed. Like what.


Well, I didn't get the Pfizer and have never paid much attention to the needles and syringes of any vaccine, but I was trying to make sense of what that orange might have been, I knew it wasn't a cap on the needle.  Seems like a politician had the same false accusations about her photo of getting the vaccine, and it was explained that the orange part that people were alleging was a cap, was a 'hub' which goes between the syringe and the needle, it does not cover the tip of the needle.


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## SeaBreeze

Pauline1954 said:


> Sure, when you show me the needle going into his arm.


Believe what you want Pauline, I'm not here to convince anybody or change anyone's opinion.  You can follow lies and conspiracies, and repost 'what you heard', but know that you are part of the problem.


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## Jennina

Not all syringes are made equal.


win231 said:


> Interesting - I'm familiar with syringes because I take Insulin 2-3 times/day.  I tried to enlarge the photo for 2 reasons:
> 1.  That doesn't look like a Covid syringe; it looks like a common Insulin syringe, which has a much-shorter needle because Insulin goes into fat tissue; not muscle like a Covid or Flu shot, which requires a much-longer needle.
> 
> 2.  The orange cap that protects the needle (that each Insulin syringe comes with) is still attached.  Impossible to inject anything unless it's removed.
> Photo Op?



Your "mystery cap."

PS My original note was really harsh but I decided to let the photos speak for themselves.


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## Shero

Jennina said:


> Not all syringes are made equal.
> 
> 
> Your "mystery cap."
> 
> PS My original note was really harsh but I decided to let the photos speak for themselves.


Well done!! I was just about to come in to say thesame thing


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## win231

Jennina said:


> Not all syringes are made equal.
> 
> 
> Your "mystery cap."
> 
> PS My original note was really harsh but I decided to let the photos speak for themselves.


Is that photo supposed to clarify anything?  It's not even the same photo.  He's obviously wearing a different color shirt.  The fact that there are different types of syringes doesn't mean this particular person we're referring to got the vaccine.


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## SeaBreeze

Thanks @Jennina and @Shero for your photos and video, very helpful.  Of course, as you can see, reality never stopped the gossip of conspiracies for those who refuse to see it.  The nonsense will keep flowing, but it's good to offset it now and then with truth and facts.  Civilians, front-line workers, doctors, nurses and family of members who died from COVID-19 or have loved ones in hospitals hooked up to ventilators appreciate caring folks like you who want fellow Americans to stay alive and healthy.  Thanks again.


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## John cycling

SeaBreeze said:


> You can follow lies and conspiracies, and repost 'what you heard', but know that you are part of the problem.



No, we *truth seers* are obviously not in the group who do that, and who cause the real problems.
*The truth is the truth* - No one can change it by spreading lies, misinformation and using authoritarian measures.
I've always felt that *seeing and living by the truth* is the only way to live a true life, and after 75 years, I'm not going to change.


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## win231

SeaBreeze said:


> Thanks @Jennina and @Shero for your photos and video, very helpful.  Of course, as you can see, reality never stopped the gossip of conspiracies for those who refuse to see it.  The nonsense will keep flowing, but it's good to offset it now and then with truth and facts.  Civilians, front-line workers, doctors, nurses and family of members who died from COVID-19 or have loved ones in hospitals hooked up to ventilators appreciate caring folks like you who want fellow Americans to stay alive and healthy.  Thanks again.


Yes, how dare anyone not accept nonsense! Very frustrating.


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## Jennina

win231 said:


> Is that photo supposed to clarify anything?  It's not even the same photo.  He's obviously wearing a different color shirt.  The fact that there are different types of syringes doesn't mean this particular person we're referring to got the vaccine.


You missed the point. I didn't say that was the Pfizer CEO. I'm showing you the syringe that looks like the one used by the doctor. The orange thingy wasn't the cap. 

OK. So, how do we decide whom to believe? 

It's either the CEO and the doctor are stupid enough to stage a failed fake jab or you overestimated your knowledge of syringes. 

I think it's safe to assume that 
the CEO of PFizer is well educated and has breadth and depth of  experience in his field.  it's also safe to assume that the doctor who spent more than a decade (or 2 or 3)  studying and practicing medicine  knows how to use syringes.  That said, I don't think they are capable of descending to the level of stupidity you are accusing them of.  

 If in fact, it was staged, they would be smart enough to pay attention to details because of what's at stake --- their careers if they get found out.  You're accusing 2 intelligent individuals of back to back stupidity --- doctor forgets to remove the cap and then the  CEO didn't check the photo before posting it.  

Let's now go to you. I don't know what your educational background is or what your profession is/was. So I'm going to base my comment on your post.  As far as syringes and vaccination requirements are concerned, it seems your only credential is you have diabetes. So, yes youre familar with insulin syringes. Are you familiar with the types of syringes they use for Covid?  

So in conclusion, the likelihood of  the doctor and the CEO being careless doing something unethical that might jeopardize their careers is 
way way lower than the  odds of you making a mistake about a syringe that you don't even seem to be aware exists.


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## Retired & Loving It!

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.  . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me.  Its not safe from everything Ive learned.  And I did a ton of research to come to this decision.


We have made this same decision. We believe it is a personal decision and should never be mandated.


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## AnnieA

Doctors in private practice can refuse care with a 30 day notice.

https://medicaljustice.com/when-can-you-refuse-to-treat-a-patient/


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## SeaBreeze

Jennina said:


> You missed the point. I didn't say that was the Pfizer CEO. I'm showing you the syringe that looks like the one used by the doctor. The orange thingy wasn't the cap.
> 
> OK. So, how do we decide whom to believe?
> 
> It's either the CEO and the doctor are stupid enough to stage a failed fake jab or you overestimated your knowledge of syringes.
> 
> I think it's safe to assume that
> the CEO of PFizer is well educated and has breadth and depth of  experience in his field.  it's also safe to assume that the doctor who spent more than a decade (or 2 or 3)  studying and practicing medicine  knows how to use syringes.  That said, I don't think they are capable of descending to the level of stupidity you are accusing them of.
> 
> If in fact, it was staged, they would be smart enough to pay attention to details because of what's at stake --- their careers if they get found out.  You're accusing 2 intelligent individuals of back to back stupidity --- doctor forgets to remove the cap and then the  CEO didn't check the photo before posting it.
> 
> Let's now go to you. I don't know what your educational background is or what your profession is/was. So I'm going to base my comment on your post.  As far as syringes and vaccination requirements are concerned, it seems your only credential is you have diabetes. So, yes youre familar with insulin syringes. Are you familiar with the types of syringes they use for Covid?
> 
> So in conclusion, the likelihood of  the doctor and the CEO being careless doing something unethical that might jeopardize their careers is
> way way lower than the  odds of you making a mistake about a syringe that you don't even seem to be aware exists.


Well said, and many here had no question that you were showing the syringe there and did not make any allegation that it was the CEO in the image.


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## Shero

SeaBreeze said:


> Thanks @Jennina and @Shero for your photos and video, very helpful.  Of course, as you can see, reality never stopped the gossip of conspiracies for those who refuse to see it.  The nonsense will keep flowing, but it's good to offset it now and then with truth and facts.  Civilians, front-line workers, doctors, nurses and family of members who died from COVID-19 or have loved ones in hospitals hooked up to ventilators appreciate caring folks like you who want fellow Americans to stay alive and healthy.  Thanks again.


 I share your frustration Seabreeze. I cannot begin to understand the mentality of people who spread such bizarre misinformation!


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## Butterfly

PamfromTx said:


> No, haven't heard that.  But, a big notice is on front door to wear a mask.   p.s.  And I've been to see my family doctor a couple of times this month.


Here, too.  And they are being sticklers for what kind of mask; if they don't think the one you are wearing is adequate, they'll give you one that is and insist you wear that one.  Also, only patients are being allowed in, with the exceptions of parents of children with appointments and carers of those who actually require physical assistance.


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## Butterfly

Murrmurr said:


> It won't surprise me if multiple cases hit the Supreme Court within a few years. Stands to reason, imo.



The matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court. 

The 1905 Supreme Court decision in the case Jacobson v. Massachusetts. The court ruled against a man who had refused to be vaccinated against smallpox, stating: "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." The Supreme Court explicitly upheld vaccine mandates against deadly diseases in _Jacobson_, where it explained: "the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."


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## PamfromTx

Butterfly said:


> Here, too.  And they are being sticklers for what kind of mask; if they don't think the one you are wearing is adequate, they'll give you one that is and insist you wear that one.  Also, only patients are being allowed in, with the exceptions of parents of children with appointments and carers of those who actually require physical assistance.


They have never questioned the type of mask (N95) I was wearing at my appointments.  And let me say that I'm just glad that I'm *still* alive; and yes, we have lost friends to Covid-19.


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## SeaBreeze

PamfromTx said:


> They have never questioned the type of mask (N95) I was wearing at my appointments.  And let me say that I'm just glad that I'm *still* alive; and yes, we have lost friends to Covid-19.


I imagine the N95 is the preferred quality of mask Pam.  I've only used cloth masks and disposable masks.....but I haven't had to go to a doctor's office since the covid, except at a Kaiser facility for my Moderna vaccinations, twice.


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## PamfromTx

SeaBreeze said:


> I imagine the N95 is the preferred quality of mask Pam.  I've only used cloth masks and disposable masks.....but I haven't had to go to a doctor's office since the covid, except at a Kaiser facility for my Moderna vaccinations, twice.


At times when my sinuses are driving me nuts and I can't breath... I will wear the disposable masks.


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## Irwin

Butterfly said:


> The matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The 1905 Supreme Court decision in the case Jacobson v. Massachusetts. The court ruled against a man who had refused to be vaccinated against smallpox, stating: "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." The Supreme Court explicitly upheld vaccine mandates against deadly diseases in _Jacobson_, where it explained: "the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."



Personally, I don't think people should be forced to get vaccinated. That goes beyond what the government should be able to tell us to do. Wear a mask, sure, since that's just temporary, but vaccine mandates for everyone crosses the line for government unless it's for work or access to public areas or the military. And private businesses should be allowed to mandate vaccines and fire anyone who won't comply.

And for those who won't get vaccinated, perhaps they should be required to pay extra taxes since they're costing the rest of us a lot of money, and if someone gets sick or dies due to their selfish behavior, they should face criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits. 

But I don't think in general, governments should mandate vaccines.


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## win231

Butterfly said:


> Here, too.  And they are being sticklers for what kind of mask; if they don't think the one you are wearing is adequate, they'll give you one that is and insist you wear that one.  Also, only patients are being allowed in, with the exceptions of parents of children with appointments and carers of those who actually require physical assistance.


I wear a mask where it's required, including a doctor's or optometrist's office.
But I only wear MY mask that I sterilize with alcohol after each use & before wearing it again.  If someone gave me a mask, I'd say "No thanks."  I would have no way of knowing what it touched, where it was stored, or who wore it.  Really stupid to put a mask on your face that someone hands you.


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## Butterfly

win231 said:


> I wear a mask where it's required, including a doctor's or optometrist's office.
> But I only wear MY mask that I sterilize with alcohol after each use & before wearing it again.  If someone gave me a mask, I'd say "No thanks."  I would have no way of knowing what it touched, where it was stored, or who wore it.  Really stupid to put a mask on your face that someone hands you.



In the clinic mentioned, the masks are kept sterile and handed to you by a nurse wearing gloves and a mask.  You either wear their mask or you don't get past the front security desk.


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## Sunny

Pauline, I'm sure you mean well, but please work on improving your "research" techniques before spreading any more lies being generated by the lunatic fringe. You could be doing immeasurable harm by spreading false gossip.

Win, your posts on this subject are getting more and more ridiculous as time goes one. The wrong syringe, really?


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## win231

Sunny said:


> Pauline, I'm sure you mean well, but please work on improving your "research" techniques before spreading any more lies being generated by the lunatic fringe. You could be doing immeasurable harm by spreading false gossip.
> 
> Win, your posts on this subject are getting more and more ridiculous as time goes one. The wrong syringe, really?


Your opinion is worth the price you charged for it.


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## mathjak107

All


Butterfly said:


> The matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The 1905 Supreme Court decision in the case Jacobson v. Massachusetts. The court ruled against a man who had refused to be vaccinated against smallpox, stating: "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." The Supreme Court explicitly upheld vaccine mandates against deadly diseases in _Jacobson_, where it explained: "the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."


very interesting


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## Jules

Everybody that enters our hospital has put on one of their disposable masks.  



Butterfly said:


> In the clinic mentioned, the masks are kept sterile and handed to you by a nurse wearing gloves and a mask.  You either wear their mask or you don't get past the front security desk.


They have gloves and a mask and use tongs to take them out of the new package.  They’re picked up by the elastics.


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## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> Seems like major changes happening for the people and forced vaccinations. When the CDC tell their employees they have to vac to keep their job as well as FDA telling along with congress and the like Lets not forget the CEO  of Pfizer isnt getting the vax either. He says he's not frontline and it isnt needed and hes saying his shot for someone else.  . I think I will do what they are doing. Besides it would probably harm me or kill me. Because two,of my children are suffering with illness and pain they cant determine what it is. So not for me.  Its not safe from everything Ive learned.  And I did a ton of research to come to this decision.



From FactCheck.org:

"The CEO of Pfizer posted a photo of himself getting the second shot of the COVID-19 vaccine on March 10. But an Aug. 5 tweet from Newsmax reporter Emerald Robinson misleadingly suggested he isn’t vaccinated. She updated the tweet hours later, acknowledging the CEO’s post — but after her claim had spread, uncorrected, on other social media."

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/scicheck-pfizer-ceo-got-the-covid-19-vaccine/


----------



## Pauline1954

Sunny said:


> Pauline, I'm sure you mean well, but please work on improving your "research" techniques before spreading any more lies being generated by the lunatic fringe. You could be doing immeasurable harm by spreading false gossip.
> 
> Win, your posts on this subject are getting more and more ridiculous as time goes one. The wrong syringe, really?


Did I say wrong syringe?      did i even post the picture?


----------



## JimBob1952

This is a pretty good roundup of who is and is not requiring vaccinations.  

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/...yees/536-e2080147-2e26-4b79-8451-13ceac2e44b8


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Murrmurr said:


> It won't surprise me if multiple cases hit the Supreme Court within a few years. Stands to reason, imo.


I expect court cases, too; after all, we're extremely litigious about everything even if the cases are frivolous.  However, we need to note that employers practically "own" employees.  If there are no violations of state or federal laws, employers can do whatever they please.  And in "right to work" states they can fire people for any reason or no reason without even giving a reason unless there's a contract with stipulations about this.


----------



## PamfromTx




----------



## Sunny

Pauline1954 said:


> Did I say wrong syringe?      did i even post the picture?


Pauline, why did you think I was talking to you about the syringe?  The first word of the sentence was "Win."


----------



## Pauline1954

May 16, but hey. She said it.    

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4963284/user-clip-fauci-admits-50-60-cdc-nih-employees-vaccinated


----------



## Pauline1954

Dancing_Queen said:


> I expect court cases, too; after all, we're extremely litigious about everything even if the cases are frivolous.  However, we need to note that employers practically "own" employees.  If there are no violations of state or federal laws, employers can do whatever they please.  And in "right to work" states they can fire people for any reason or no reason without even giving a reason unless there's a contract with stipulations about this.


Im wondering about liability on companies that coerce the employees to get the vac to keep their job but end up injuried or dead?   Because the vaccinations are still in a trial period until 2023. But someone mentioned its 2025. But i havent checked. It just crossed my mind and posing the thought.


----------



## Pauline1954

Sunny said:


> Pauline, why did you think I was talking to you about the syringe?  The first word of the sentence was "Win."


Because i didnt see it. My Apologies


----------



## Della

What I can't understand is why anyone would mind wearing a mask.  I wear mine when I go any place with high traffic like the supermarket and I forget I even have it on until someone gets upset about it.  Just a few days ago a woman caught my eye in Kroger and made a mad face and started shaking her head at me. I wanted to ask her how my mask was hurting her, but I didn't want to start something that would end up on Twitter. 

I think one thing was made clear last year.  Masks help keep us from spreading lots of contagious diseases.  Last year there was a record low in ordinary flu cases! Even if Covid didn't exist, the decrease in the number of flu deaths would have been worth masking to me.


----------



## win231

Della said:


> What I can't understand is why anyone would mind wearing a mask.  I wear mine when I go any place with high traffic like the supermarket and I forget I even have it on until someone gets upset about it.  Just a few days ago a woman caught my eye in Kroger and made a mad face and started shaking her head at me. I wanted to ask her how my mask was hurting her, but I didn't want to start something that would end up on Twitter.
> 
> I think one thing was made clear last year.  Masks help keep us from spreading lots of contagious diseases.  Last year there was a record low in ordinary flu cases! Even if Covid didn't exist, the decrease in the number of flu deaths would have been worth masking to me.


The number of flu cases always varies from season to season, and for many reasons.  It really has nothing to do with masks.
In 2018, I was hospitalized for 8 days for Sepsis (caused by a dentist's incompetent root canal).  It was flu season & it was reported that there were "Many Many" cases.  When I got to the ER, there were mask dispensers everywhere, but not a single doctor, nurse, or hospital employee wore a mask.  I was in Intensive Care for 3 days.  No one wore a mask.  When they moved me to a regular room, again - not one person wore a mask, not even the nurses who came in & took blood every 2 hours.
I did ask one nurse why no one wore a mask.  She just smiled & rolled her eyes.

The only person who wore a mask was my sister, who drove me to the hospital.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> Im wondering about liability on companies that coerce the employees to get the vac to keep their job but end up injuried or dead?   Because the vaccinations are still in a trial period until 2023. But someone mentioned its 2025. But i havent checked. It just crossed my mind and posing the thought.


I don't understand what you mean by a trial period, Pauline.  Can you please explain?

There are ongoing trials for young children with the hope of emergency authorization by the end of the year; there are trials for mixing vaccines; there probably will be trials for new variants.  But Pfizer has full authorization in the U.S. for people above the age of 16 and Moderna has submitted its paperwork for full authorization for adults.  J&J will be following soon.  After that the paperwork will be submitted by Pfizer for full authorization for children 12-16.  A specific number of months have to pass between emergency use authorization and full authorization and a lot more paperwork needs to be submitted and gone through.  But these aren't trials.


----------



## Pauline1954

Dancing_Queen said:


> I don't understand what you mean by a trial period, Pauline.  Can you please explain?
> 
> There are ongoing trials for young children with the hope of emergency authorization by the end of the year; there are trials for mixing vaccines; there probably will be trials for new variants.  But Pfizer has full authorization in the U.S. for people above the age of 16 and Moderna has submitted its paperwork for full authorization for adults.  J&J will be following soon.  After that the paperwork will be submitted by Pfizer for full authorization for children 12-16.  A specific number of months have to pass between emergency use authorization and full authorization and a lot more paperwork needs to be submitted and gone through.  But these aren't trials.



The pfizer vax being used right now is still under EUD. COMIRNATY has not even gone into production here in the US. The EUD is the one Im specifically talking about.  Frankly, i dont think it will be released.  Ive read in all my digging because it would not have protection and would no longer be under the umbrella act. Which protects drug companies from being sued for harm. But thats a legal thing and havent gone as far as I want.  The vax being used now was not approved.  "A"generic drug was approved for the 1st covid 19 vaccination. I have to pay attention to how its worded. Its very important not assume when reading stuff like this.   There is a lot of EUD in supply from what it sounds like they want to use it up. Probably to get paid for it before production for comirnaty is started.    Some of these little tidbits ive heard said from the inventor of the mNRA Dr Robert Malone in interviews.  But here are a couple link to check out.  Ive skimmed and read these two links. These pages have links on links which is a rabbit hole. Ive been down some and find you are reading far more than you'd ever ask for. 


HEADLINES should never be taken at face value.   SomI do try and read the links or get some,what of a grasp at what is the story.  

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

https://www.fda.gov/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/comirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine


----------



## Pauline1954

Ive got to say I used to think masks helped a lot.  And I had a sense of protection.   I was wrong.

If I can find the link on a demostration of the 3 sizes of droplets that can be projected  through a sneeze and cough  I will post it.   But the first two were large enough for larger droplets for the to mask help. The the aerosol goes through all cloth masks.  Its very eye opening. And really only gives a false sense of protection security.   But I still wear one when I feel I want the to feel safe.     just run fast from people that sneeze. People do walk and cough but to sneeze you need to stop still.  So those are the ones we need to stay away from.  But standing without masks face to face and or bending down speaking into someone ear is enough to absorb their fluids from aerosol spray from their mouths.  
And aerosol spray from the mouth is a mist so fine its like mist on eyeglasses.

If i find it I will post it. 

Have a great evening.


----------



## Devi

I know what you mean, Pauline. The visual demonstration I saw was of a tiny droplet moving through a chicken wire fence. Don't recall where I saw it, though.


----------



## Shero

Pauline1954 said:


> Ive got to say I used to think masks helped a lot.  And I had a sense of protection.   I was wrong.
> 
> If I can find the link on a demostration of the 3 sizes of droplets that can be projected  through a sneeze and cough  I will post it.   But the first two were large enough for larger droplets for the to mask help. The the aerosol goes through all cloth masks.  Its very eye opening. And really only gives a false sense of protection security.   But I still wear one when I feel I want the to feel safe.     just run fast from people that sneeze. People do walk and cough but to sneeze you need to stop still.  So those are the ones we need to stay away from.  But standing without masks face to face and or bending down speaking into someone ear is enough to absorb their fluids from aerosol spray from their mouths.
> And aerosol spray from the mouth is a mist so fine its like mist on eyeglasses.
> 
> If i find it I will post it.
> 
> Have a great evening.


*"If i find it I will post it."*
no, no, no Pauline, even if you find it, please do us a favour and keep it to yourself.


----------



## Becky1951

Pauline1954 said:


> Ive got to say I used to think masks helped a lot.  And I had a sense of protection.   I was wrong.
> 
> If I can find the link on a demostration of the 3 sizes of droplets that can be projected  through a sneeze and cough  I will post it.   But the first two were large enough for larger droplets for the to mask help. The the aerosol goes through all cloth masks.  Its very eye opening. And really only gives a false sense of protection security.  But I still wear one when I feel I want the to feel safe.     just run fast from people that sneeze. People do walk and cough but to sneeze you need to stop still.  So those are the ones we need to stay away from.  But standing without masks face to face and or bending down speaking into someone ear is enough to absorb their fluids from aerosol spray from their mouths.
> And aerosol spray from the mouth is a mist so fine its like mist on eyeglasses.
> 
> If i find it I will post it.
> 
> Have a great evening.


"If i find it I will post it."

Thank you Pauline, the information is appreciated. All information should be shared, its up to the person reading to decide if its important to them or not, its just to bad that there are some here that can't comment without being snarky or hateful.  I was posting information regarding the vaccines and breakthrough cases and deaths and was accused of causing stress and panic and drama.  

I stopped posting articles.  But now?  Why should I let the snarks and haters replies run me off?  I'm back!  Don't let them run you off.


----------



## mathjak107

Pauline1954 said:


> Im wondering about liability on companies that coerce the employees to get the vac to keep their job but end up injuried or dead?   Because the vaccinations are still in a trial period until 2023. But someone mentioned its 2025. But i havent checked. It just crossed my mind and posing the thought.


because it is considered part of work any effects would be likely covered under workmen's comp.that is the general legal consensus

workmen’s comp keeps employers from being sued for work related events that are not directly their fault.

70% of side effects usually show up in the first 15 minutes so , so far it has not been an issue


----------



## Pauline1954

Becky1951 said:


> "If i find it I will post it."
> 
> Thank you Pauline, the information is appreciated. All information should be shared, its up to the person reading to decide if its important to them or not, its just to bad that there are some here that can't comment without being snarky or hateful.  I was posting information regarding the vaccines and breakthrough cases and deaths and was accused of causing stress and panic and drama.
> 
> I stopped posting articles.  But now?  Why should I let the snarks and haters replies run me off?  I'm back!  Don't let them run you off.



I cant. I find something that could be valuable or help someone or pquestions me on my source or point. so I will share it.


----------



## Irwin

Woman said she is an RN with 2 kids, told the Lee County FL Sch Bd last night: “You are all demonic entities. All of us christians are sticking together to take you all out. These doctors that were sneering at us like we’re scumbags, they need to go back to f*cking med school.”

https://www.rawstory.com/melissa-lee-county-florida/


----------



## Becky1951

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

"
THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH: MODERN VERSION​
 I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

*I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.*
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to *all my fellow human beings*, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.


----------



## John cycling

Irwin said:


> Woman said she is an RN with 2 kids, told the Lee County FL Sch Bd last night: “You are all demonic entities. All of us christians are sticking together to take you all out. These doctors that were sneering at us like we’re scumbags, they need to go back to f*cking med school.”



Good for her.  She is right.  Wow, Florida school board meetings are a battleground. 
They need to get parents on those school boards to replace those terrible people trying to abuse all their children.
Ultimately,  all funds for schools should be determined only by the parent's and family's choices of where they choose to have their children go to school, and whoever the school board members are should be determined only by the parents, not anyone else.


----------



## Pauline1954

Irwin said:


> Woman said she is an RN with 2 kids, told the Lee County FL Sch Bd last night: “You are all demonic entities. All of us christians are sticking together to take you all out. These doctors that were sneering at us like we’re scumbags, they need to go back to f*cking med school.”
> 
> https://www.rawstory.com/melissa-lee-county-florida/
> 
> View attachment 181374


Well, I guess she feels very strongly about what she's been going through.   Having a conviction as strong as she portrays gives her strength in her beliefs from her experiences.


----------



## Pauline1954

Shero said:


> *"If i find it I will post it."*
> no, no, no Pauline, even if you find it, please do us a favour and keep it to yourself.



Its scientific and just information. It was actually interesting.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> The pfizer vax being used right now is still under EUD. COMIRNATY has not even gone into production here in the US. The EUD is the one Im specifically talking about.  Frankly, i dont think it will be released.  Ive read in all my digging because it would not have protection and would no longer be under the umbrella act. Which protects drug companies from being sued for harm. But thats a legal thing and havent gone as far as I want.  The vax being used now was not approved.  "A"generic drug was approved for the 1st covid 19 vaccination. I have to pay attention to how its worded. Its very important not assume when reading stuff like this.   There is a lot of EUD in supply from what it sounds like they want to use it up. Probably to get paid for it before production for comirnaty is started.    Some of these little tidbits ive heard said from the inventor of the mNRA Dr Robert Malone in interviews.  But here are a couple link to check out.  Ive skimmed and read these two links. These pages have links on links which is a rabbit hole. Ive been down some and find you are reading far more than you'd ever ask for.
> 
> 
> HEADLINES should never be taken at face value.   SomI do try and read the links or get some,what of a grasp at what is the story.
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/comirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine


What is "EUD." Pauline?  The Pfizer vaccine, now fully authorized for people 16+ years of age, has a name -- Comirnaty.  Since Comirnaty is the same vaccine we've been talking about all along that now has full approval for people 16+ years of age, I have no idea what you're trying to say.  Can you please explain how it hasn't gone into production, won't be released, etc.?

"On August 23, 2021, the FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals."

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepa...omirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine


----------



## Irwin

Dancing_Queen said:


> What is "EUD."


Emergency Use Designation. I had to do a bit of searching to figure it out.


----------



## Pauline1954

Dancing_Queen said:


> What is "EUD." Pauline?  The Pfizer vaccine, now fully authorized for people 16+ years of age, has a name -- Comirnaty.  Since Comirnaty is the same vaccine we've been talking about all along that now has full approval for people 16+ years of age, I have no idea what you're trying to say.  Can you please explain how it hasn't gone into production, won't be released, etc.?
> 
> "On August 23, 2021, the FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals."
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepa...omirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine


Emergency Use Drug EUD

Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA technology, which has been used to create the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines. He has been speaking out about the dangers of the COVID shot, such as the damages the Coronavirus spike protein causes in the body. In this interview with Del Bigtree, Dr. Robert Malone calls for a stop of COVID vaccines. He explains that the COVID vaccine can cause enhanced immune response, which creates a worse reaction when exposed to the natural coronavirus. He says that it can create autoimmunities in the the body. Dr. Robert Malone also said that the spike protein is the most dangerous part of the virus (which is in the COVID vaccine) is similar to spike proteins in our bodies, and can open up (not just pass through) the blood brain barrier. This has very dangerous implications for the human body, and why there have been so many adverse reactions to the COVID vaccine.

Watch the interview with Dr. Robert Malone on the highwire at this link:

thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/

These effects can be devastating to the body, causing a cytokine storm, autoimmune disorders, and neurological problems.


----------



## Pauline1954

Its very very disturbing.   My oldest sister called me last night to tell me she has severe anemia.   I eventually asked her when she got her vaccinations. She got them in March just a mere 5 months ago. This illness she is having started about 6 weeks ago she said.   She has an appointment with a doctor for more tests because doc thinks she is losing blood somewhere.   Connect the dots. My daughter,  my son and now my sister. Then my granddaughter father inlaw has been having problems for a couple of months since his shots a few months ago.

I wish people would please wake up. Its such a tragedy.   dont be ashamed if you are having problems since the shots. Speak up please report it.

People want those sick from it to get better to live good lives.   Please report or pass this link on.

https://t.me/s/covidvaccineinjuries


----------



## JimBob1952

Pauline1954 said:


> Its very very disturbing.   My oldest sister called me last night to tell me she has severe anemia.   I eventually asked her when she got her vaccinations. She got them in March just a mere 5 months ago. This illness she is having started about 6 weeks ago she said.   She has an appointment with a doctor for more tests because doc thinks she is losing blood somewhere.   Connect the dots. My daughter,  my son and now my sister. Then my granddaughter father inlaw has been having problems for a couple of months since his shots a few months ago.
> 
> I wish people would please wake up. Its such a tragedy.   dont be ashamed if you are having problems since the shots. Speak up please report it.
> 
> People want those sick from it to get better to live good lives.   Please report or pass this link on.
> 
> https://t.me/s/covidvaccineinjuries


 
I would like to report that I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine in January/February and have never felt better.  Not only that, I don't know anybody who has had vaccine-related problems, or who has had a breakthrough infection.  I'm sorry you've had a different experience.  

Looking forward to the booster!


----------



## Jennina

Pauline1954 said:


> Its very very disturbing.   My oldest sister called me last night to tell me she has severe anemia.   I eventually asked her when she got her vaccinations. She got them in March just a mere 5 months ago. This illness she is having started about 6 weeks ago she said.   She has an appointment with a doctor for more tests because doc thinks she is losing blood somewhere.   Connect the dots. My daughter,  my son and now my sister. Then my granddaughter father inlaw has been having problems for a couple of months since his shots a few months ago.
> 
> I wish people would please wake up. Its such a tragedy.   dont be ashamed if you are having problems since the shots. Speak up please report it.
> 
> People want those sick from it to get better to live good lives.   Please report or pass this link on.
> 
> https://t.me/s/covidvaccineinjuries


Maybe there's something in your family genes that react negatively to the vaccine? Like @JimBob1952  I don't know anyone who's had vaccine-related illnesses.


----------



## Pepper

JimBob1952 said:


> I would like to report that I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine in January/February and have never felt better.  Not only that, *I don't know anybody who has had vaccine-related problems, or who has had a breakthrough infection. * I'm sorry you've had a different experience.
> 
> Looking forward to the booster!


Ditto to all you said.


----------



## Becky1951

Pauline1954 said:


> Its very very disturbing.   My oldest sister called me last night to tell me she has severe anemia.   I eventually asked her when she got her vaccinations. She got them in March just a mere 5 months ago. This illness she is having started about 6 weeks ago she said.   She has an appointment with a doctor for more tests because doc thinks she is losing blood somewhere.   Connect the dots. My daughter,  my son and now my sister. Then my granddaughter father inlaw has been having problems for a couple of months since his shots a few months ago.
> 
> I wish people would please wake up. Its such a tragedy.   dont be ashamed if you are having problems since the shots. Speak up please report it.
> 
> People want those sick from it to get better to live good lives.   Please report or pass this link on.
> 
> https://t.me/s/covidvaccineinjuries


Jennina wrote, "Maybe there's something in your family genes that react negatively to the vaccine?" 

So sorry your family is having these health issues. I doubt its something in your families genes considering your granddaughters father in law, (non related to your family) is also having issues. Also it would be odd to have so many at basically the same time have a problem due to a gene defect.


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> Jennina wrote, "Maybe there's something in your family genes that react negatively to the vaccine?"
> 
> So sorry your family is having these health issues. I doubt its something in your families genes considering your granddaughters father in law, (non related to your family) is also having issues. Also it would be odd to have so many at basically the same time have a problem due to a gene defect.


I don't want to stress you out again but let me just quickly comment on your reply.

First of all, i didnt say her family has genetic defects. 

Secondly, assuming I'm correct that genetics may affect how our immune system reacts to the vaccine, the presence of the father in law does not necessarily mean it's not genetics in Pauline's case.  It's possible that it's genetics in her family's case and something else with the father in law.  If she can establish it's genetics, she can stop the other members from getting the vaccine.


----------



## Becky1951

Jennina said:


> I don't want to stress you out again but let me just quickly comment on your reply.
> 
> First of all, i didnt say her family has genetic defects.
> 
> Secondly, assuming I'm correct that genetics may affect how our immune system reacts to the vaccine, the presence of the father in law does not necessarily mean it's not genetics in Pauline's case.  It's possible that it's genetics in her family's case and something else with the father in law.  If she can establish it's genetics, she can stop the other members from getting the vaccine.


Stress me out again??  

No you didn't use the word defect. However if there is something in their genetic makeup that isn't working correctly that's a defect.

That would be true in natural immunity as well. Considering her sister's severe anemia isn't the same issues other family members are having then I doubt its genetic. I may be wrong, maybe they are all having severe anemia issues, but don't remember reading that.

You gave your opinion, I gave mine.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

At my clinic, you cannot enter without a mask. Every employee and patient that I saw were masked up. Medical service for the unvaccinated is by Zoom.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> Emergency Use Drug EUD
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA technology, which has been used to create the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines. He has been speaking out about the dangers of the COVID shot, such as the damages the Coronavirus spike protein causes in the body. In this interview with Del Bigtree, Dr. Robert Malone calls for a stop of COVID vaccines. He explains that the COVID vaccine can cause enhanced immune response, which creates a worse reaction when exposed to the natural coronavirus. He says that it can create autoimmunities in the the body. Dr. Robert Malone also said that the spike protein is the most dangerous part of the virus (which is in the COVID vaccine) is similar to spike proteins in our bodies, and can open up (not just pass through) the blood brain barrier. This has very dangerous implications for the human body, and why there have been so many adverse reactions to the COVID vaccine.
> 
> Watch the interview with Dr. Robert Malone on the highwire at this link:
> 
> thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
> 
> These effects can be devastating to the body, causing a cytokine storm, autoimmune disorders, and neurological problems.


No one person invented the mRNA vaccine, Pauline, much as some would have us believe.  Many people have worked on various parts of this in various labs over many years.  And, yes -- I've read what he's been saying.  Have you read others scientists' replies to him?


----------



## SeaBreeze

JimBob1952 said:


> I would like to report that I got both doses of the Moderna vaccine in January/February and have never felt better.  Not only that, I don't know anybody who has had vaccine-related problems, or who has had a breakthrough infection.  I'm sorry you've had a different experience.
> 
> Looking forward to the booster!


Same here JimBob, I had my two Moderna shots in March and April, and have been just fine since then, also looking forward to the booster when the time comes for me.  My husband had the Johnson & Johnson and has had no side effects from it.  I have some neighbors and friends, some took the Pfizer, they are all fine also and will happily get the booster shot when their time comes.


----------



## Della

win231 said:


> The number of flu cases always varies from season to season, and for many reasons. It really has nothing to do with masks.


So last year was by far the lowest U.S. flu rate ever recorded and last year was the only year we all wore masks in public and the two things had nothing whatsoever to do with each other.  You're sure of it.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Pauline1954 said:


> Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA technology, which has been used to create the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines.


That's what Malone _wants _you to believe, it's a lie and he's just spreading dangerous disinformation.  @Dancing_Queen is correct, it was not just one person who invented the mRNA.  Conspiracy sites and podcasts are fooling the believers and killing Americans.  If you're interested in the true story, you can read this article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...lone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/


----------



## SeaBreeze

Dancing_Queen said:


> No one person invented the mRNA vaccine, Pauline, much as some would have us believe.  Many people have worked on various parts of this in various labs over many years.  And, yes -- I've read what he's been saying.  Have you read others scientists' replies to him?


You're right, thank you for posting facts as opposed to conspiracy fiction.  Too much of that being spread around, along with the deadly COVID-19 virus.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...lone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/


----------



## Irwin

The correct acronym is not EUD; it's EUA, which stands for Emergency Use Authorization.


----------



## Irwin

The anti-vaxxers are now imposing their will on others:

In southern Georgia, for example, anti-vaccine activists (oftentimes colloquially referred to as “anti-vaxxers”) tracked down on social media health workers who were part of a vaccine clinic. Once online, those individuals harangued those workers with hostile messages, filling their pages with misinformation about vaccines, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.​​At another clinic held in the northern part of the state, vaccine workers decided to halt their event altogether following harassment by anti-vaxxers. After staff said they felt threatened by protesters who were yelling at them, organizers realized that anyone else who came to get a vaccine that day would feel similarly. Not wanting to put people seeking a vaccine in that position, the staff decided to close the event early instead.​​https://truthout.org/articles/georg...own-after-anti-vaxxers-threaten-harass-staff/​
So much for valuing "personal choice."


----------



## SeaBreeze

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> At my clinic, you cannot enter without a mask. Every employee and patient that I saw were masked up. Medical service for the unvaccinated is by Zoom.


That is very good.  I haven't been to a medical clinic since I received my Moderna shots, and during those visits everyone in the building was wearing masks.


----------



## Devi

Irwin said:


> The anti-vaxxers are now imposing their will on others


All of them?


----------



## Pauline1954

Irwin said:


> The correct acronym is not EUD; it's EUA, which stands for Emergency Use Authorization.


EUD is for the specific drug.


SeaBreeze said:


> That's what Malone _wants _you to believe, it's a lie and he's just spreading dangerous disinformation.  @Dancing_Queen is correct, it was not just one person who invented the mRNA.  Conspiracy sites and podcasts are fooling the believers and killing Americans.  If you're interested in the true story, you can read this article.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science...lone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/



Then why hasnt he been sued and silenced?  Not that they havent tried to silence him.   And he isnt a lone scientist or doctor out the saying stop this shot.  Japan stopped using the vacine becausetwo women died from the shot.  They are using Ivermectin now.  If you want to know more search it.


----------



## Pauline1954

SeaBreeze said:


> That's what Malone _wants _you to believe, it's a lie and he's just spreading dangerous disinformation.  @Dancing_Queen is correct, it was not just one person who invented the mRNA.  Conspiracy sites and podcasts are fooling the believers and killing Americans.  If you're interested in the true story, you can read this article.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science...lone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/



 https://www.rwmalonemd.com/mrna-vaccine-inventor


----------



## Pauline1954

Here is a snippet on japan stopping,the moderna because two people died from,the vax.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRAN6MVw/


----------



## Nathan

SeaBreeze said:


> Thank you.  Letting disinformation spread without providing truth and facts, has helped to get us to the point where we are today.





Pink Biz said:


> *Google is your best friend in this instance, Pauline.  Go look it up for yourself*.



Thank you ladies for joining the effort to stop the _Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt_*** disinformation and conspiracy nonsense from being spread here.

* *Fear, uncertainty, and doubt* (often shortened to *FUD*) is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, *politics*, polling and *cults*. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear.


----------



## Pink Biz




----------



## Irwin

Here's the truth about Japan halting the use of the Moderna vaccine:

TOKYO, Aug 28 (Reuters) - Two people died after receiving Moderna Inc (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine shots that were among lots later suspended *following the discovery of contaminants*, Japan's health ministry said on Saturday.​​https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/​
The vaccine was contaminated. That is why its use was suspended.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> https://www.rwmalonemd.com/mrna-vaccine-inventor


Pauline, please note whose website you're referencing.  If I had a website and wanted to say that I'd developed the vaccine for the rhinovirus, would you reference that as truth?


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> Here is a snippet on japan stopping,the moderna because two people died from,the vax.
> 
> https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRAN6MVw/


Can you please start referencing credible sites, Pauline?  Anyone can post anything on Tik Tok, Facebook, this forum, or anywhere else.  Credible websites are ones run by people who actually know something about the subject they're discussing -- and aren't sites owned by people who are posting about themselves.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> EUD is for the specific drug.
> 
> 
> Then why hasnt he been sued and silenced?  Not that they havent tried to silence him.   And he isnt a lone scientist or doctor out the saying stop this shot.  Japan stopped using the vacine becausetwo women died from the shot.  They are using Ivermectin now.  If you want to know more search it.


In the U.S. we have something called "free speech."  As long as he isn't erroneously defaming people or inciting people to cause or is himself causing imminent threat, he can say whatever he wants.


----------



## Shero

Pauline1954 said:


> Here is a snippet on japan stopping,the moderna because two people died from,the vax.
> 
> https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMRAN6MVw/


Tik Tok? Tik Tok?  I cannot believe any intelligent person will post such a source. Mon Dieu!!!

Pauline, I like this source much better:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladi...f-additional-1-million-doses/?sh=4ed787464445


----------



## Pauline1954

Shero said:


> Tik Tok? Tik Tok?  I cannot believe any intelligent person will post such a source. Mon Dieu!!!




Well, now you know one.


----------



## Pauline1954

Dancing_Queen said:


> In the U.S. we have something called "free speech."  As long as he isn't erroneously defaming people or inciting people to cause or is himself causing imminent threat, he can say whatever he wants.


So why hasnt The FDA and CDC said anything?


----------



## Pauline1954

Dancing_Queen said:


> Can you please start referencing credible sites, Pauline?  Anyone can post anything on Tik Tok, Facebook, this forum, or anywhere else.  Credible websites are ones run by people who actually know something about the subject they're discussing -- and aren't sites owned by people who are posting about themselves.



Are you a bot?


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> EUD is for the specific drug.
> 
> 
> Then why hasnt he been sued and silenced?  Not that they havent tried to silence him.   And he isnt a lone scientist or doctor out the saying stop this shot.  Japan stopped using the vacine becausetwo women died from the shot.  They are using Ivermectin now.  If you want to know more search it.


I've done some searching.  The terms "Emergency Use Designation" and Emergency Use Authorization" SEEM (I have to find out why I can't use rich text anywhere on the webto be synonymous.  There's no specific term for these vaccines.


Pauline1954 said:


> Emergency Use Drug EUD
> 
> Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA technology, which has been used to create the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines. He has been speaking out about the dangers of the COVID shot, such as the damages the Coronavirus spike protein causes in the body. In this interview with Del Bigtree, Dr. Robert Malone calls for a stop of COVID vaccines. He explains that the COVID vaccine can cause enhanced immune response, which creates a worse reaction when exposed to the natural coronavirus. He says that it can create autoimmunities in the the body. Dr. Robert Malone also said that the spike protein is the most dangerous part of the virus (which is in the COVID vaccine) is similar to spike proteins in our bodies, and can open up (not just pass through) the blood brain barrier. This has very dangerous implications for the human body, and why there have been so many adverse reactions to the COVID vaccine.
> 
> Watch the interview with Dr. Robert Malone on the highwire at this link:
> 
> thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
> 
> These effects can be devastating to the body, causing a cytokine storm, autoimmune disorders, and neurological problems.



I've done some searching.  The terms "Emergency Use Designation" and Emergency Use Authorization" _seem _to be synonymous. There's no _specific _term for these vaccines.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> Are you a bot?


What??????


----------



## PamfromTx

I would also like to report that I have had no problems (vaccine related) since receiving the doses in January and February.  Let me stress that I CANNOT wait to receive the booster.

I, personally know of no one who has died due to taking the vaccine but rather for not having it administered.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Nathan said:


> Thank you ladies for joining the effort to stop the _Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt_*** disinformation and conspiracy nonsense from being spread here.
> 
> * *Fear, uncertainty, and doubt* (often shortened to *FUD*) is a propaganda tactic used in sales, marketing, public relations, *politics*, polling and *cults*. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear.


Thank you too Nathan.  Thankfully, many of us easily notice if something sounds fishy, and we will research ourselves of its validity if we do have any doubts.

  I don't belong to social media like facebook and twitter, but I've seen enough examples of the manipulation of certain groups of people by posting shady "facts" and well disguised "lies".  I feel sorry for those who fall for this hook, line and sinker, but not so sorry to turn a blind eye to those affected by their refusal to wear masks, take vaccines, etc. to control this deadly worldwide pandemic.  May all who have lost their lives to COVID-19 rest peacefully, love and sympathy to their families.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> Here's the truth about Japan halting the use of the Moderna vaccine:
> 
> TOKYO, Aug 28 (Reuters) - Two people died after receiving Moderna Inc (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine shots that were among lots later suspended *following the discovery of contaminants*, Japan's health ministry said on Saturday.​​https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/​
> The vaccine was contaminated. That is why its use was suspended.


If, _in fact_ the vaccine was contaminated, & if it caused the deaths, how would you suggest verifying that the vaccine we would be getting here was not contaminated?


----------



## SeaBreeze

Pauline1954 said:


> Are you a bot?


Resorting to personal insults now?  Keep laughing Pauline.  I really hope you stay healthy and don't suffer any serious effects from this deadly virus.


----------



## PamfromTx

It seems to be getting _*annoying*_ already.  

There is no need for rudeness.  Believe what you want and keep it to yourself.


----------



## SeaBreeze

PamfromTx said:


> It seems to be getting _*annoying*_ already.
> 
> There is no need for rudeness.  Believe what you want and keep it to yourself.


All we can do is consider the source and know that they have been brainwashed to believe as they do, and their minds are set.  They are not bad people, just lead astray with convincing falsehoods and conspiracies.  These types of conspiracy followers have been around for many years, the internet and social media are bringing it more to our attention.  We can only keep accepting facts and reality and hope for the best for all concerned.


----------



## John cycling

win231 said:


> If, _in fact_ the vaccine was contaminated, & if it caused the deaths, how would you suggest verifying that the vaccine we would be getting here was not contaminated?



You can't, because all of them are contaminated with well known poisons.
Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <-- plus CDC coverups of the deaths.



SeaBreeze said:


> Keep laughing Pauline.  I really hope you stay healthy and don't suffer any serious effects from this deadly virus.



The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either.  And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
The statement on virus isolation, <--
A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and virus isolation;
A complete refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.

I fully expect you to personally attack me again down below again because I don't believe the vaccination corporation media lies, which is where you get all your misinformation.  

Whoops!  Yep, there it is, and a couple of others did the same thing.    No facts, just personal attacks.


----------



## Pauline1954

John cycling said:


> You can't, because all of them are contaminated with well known poisons.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <-- plus CDC coverups of the deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
> Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either.  And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
> The statement on virus isolation, <--
> A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and virus isolation;
> A complete refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.



There is no history for long term affects.  Which means we do not know what our body will do after time goes on.  However, I am seeing a lot of short term adverse reactions.  So, this is a red flag and tells me there's no guarantee I wont have a heart attack, a destroyed immune system, blood clots, rashes and extreme pain and fatigue or die from it.    So much scaremongering and propaganda to get this jab its unreal.

Have a super evening.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Pauline1954 said:


> So why hasnt The FDA and CDC said anything?


Could it possibly be because they aren't in the habit of dealing with every bit of disinformation out there?  Could it be that that simply isn't part of what they do?  There are plenty of others whose business it is to debunk this stuff; it simply doesn't come under the purview of either agency.


----------



## SeaBreeze

John cycling said:


> The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
> Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either. And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
> The statement on virus isolation, <--


Is this the nutter you're citing as your source?  If he is, you should follow Pauline's lead and stick to Tik Tok.  You're in too deep to even reason with. Hope you stay healthy and don't become hospitalized from this deadly virus, good luck.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-pseudoscience/psychiatrist-who-calmly-denies-reality


----------



## SeaBreeze

Dancing_Queen said:


> Could it possibly be because they aren't in the habit of dealing with every bit of disinformation out there?  Could it be that that simply isn't part of what they do?  There are plenty of others whose business it is to debunk this stuff; it simply doesn't come under the purview of either agency.


Exactly, they are too busy with serious issues to waste their time wading through the conspiracy BS.


----------



## mellowyellow

I’m more afraid of the virus than side effects, our hospitals are full of unvaccinated people of all ages.


----------



## Nathan

John cycling said:


> You can't, because all of them are contaminated with well known poisons.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <-- plus CDC coverups of the deaths.
> 
> The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
> Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either.  And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
> The statement on virus isolation, <--
> A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and virus isolation;
> A complete refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.


I hope you are kidding @John cycling ,what ridiculous garbage!     But, if BitChute material is your* brain rot *of choice for shaping your world view, at least inform the audience here that: "BitChute is a video hosting service launched by Ray Vahey in January 2017. It is known for accommodating far-right individuals and conspiracy theorists, and for hosting hate speech "  Wikipedia


----------



## Dancing_Queen

John cycling said:


> You can't, because all of them are contaminated with well known poisons.
> Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
> Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <-- plus CDC coverups of the deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
> Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either.  And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
> The statement on virus isolation, <--
> A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and virus isolation;
> A complete refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.


Where did you get the information that the virus has never been isolated, John?  How in the world could anyone have come up with a vaccine for something they hadn't isolated?  And why would they be spending so much time, effort, and money on a vaccine for a virus that's imaginary?

Can you also tell us what you believe is the cause of our hospitals' being filled?  I live in Florida and work with a group of hospitals and I can tell you first hand that things are very, very bad.  What are all of these people in ICU for?


----------



## Shero

Pauline1954 said:


> Shero, you are rediculous and nasty.   I find it very abhorrent you would even say this about my family.  I said it because its true. Now move back to your hole.


This coming from you, is what I expect. Still, I do not believe a word you say. You have a mission and the mission is unacceptable.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Irwin said:


> The anti-vaxxers are now imposing their will on others:
> 
> In southern Georgia, for example, anti-vaccine activists (oftentimes colloquially referred to as “anti-vaxxers”) tracked down on social media health workers who were part of a vaccine clinic. Once online, those individuals harangued those workers with hostile messages, filling their pages with misinformation about vaccines, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.​​At another clinic held in the northern part of the state, vaccine workers decided to halt their event altogether following harassment by anti-vaxxers. After staff said they felt threatened by protesters who were yelling at them, organizers realized that anyone else who came to get a vaccine that day would feel similarly. Not wanting to put people seeking a vaccine in that position, the staff decided to close the event early instead.​​https://truthout.org/articles/georg...own-after-anti-vaxxers-threaten-harass-staff/​
> So much for valuing "personal choice."


They are angry, hostile and confused.....bad combination.  They affect others in more negative ways than actually spreading the deadly virus.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Nathan said:


> I hope you are kidding @John cycling ,what ridiculous garbage!     But, if BitChute material is your* brain rot *of choice for shaping your world view, at least inform the audience here that: "BitChute is a video hosting service launched by Ray Vahey in January 2017. It is known for accommodating far-right individuals and conspiracy theorists, and for hosting hate speech "  Wikipedia


I was just looking at that link of his, can't believe he's seriously posting these cheesy sites as valid info.  Reveals a lot about who he is and how he thinks, I need not say more.


----------



## MrPants

I've had 2 Covid 19 vaccine shots and no adverse effects at all - not even a temporary sore arm - same as everyone else in the community I know. 
Good lord, I've had so many vaccinations in my lifetime for everything from polio to yellow fever and much, much more. With all that 'poison' shot into my veins you'd think I'd either have two heads by now or be dead long ago   Oh, and by the way; I've never contracted any of the diseases or viruses that I've been vaccinated for.


----------



## Jennina

Becky1951 said:


> Stress me out again??
> 
> No you didn't use the word defect. However if there is something in their genetic makeup that isn't working correctly that's a defect.
> 
> That would be true in natural immunity as well. Considering her sister's severe anemia isn't the same issues other family members are having then I doubt its genetic. I may be wrong, maybe they are all having severe anemia issues, but don't remember reading that.
> 
> You gave your opinion, I gave mine.



I usually avoid members   whom I know to have some form of illness. Your laughing emoji tells me you're fair game but your rose emoji says you want peace. 

Anyway, there's no point arguing.  Im unversed in genetics and  I'm not going to argue from ignorance. However, let me just clarify one thing.

Scientists are now looking into genetic variations as the possible reason for the different reactions to the vaccine.  You and I have different genetic make up and may react differently to the vaccine. It doesn't necessarily mean either of us have genetic defect.  Hope that make sense.


----------



## Jennina

Irwin said:


> Here's the truth about Japan halting the use of the Moderna vaccine:
> 
> TOKYO, Aug 28 (Reuters) - Two people died after receiving Moderna Inc (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine shots that were among lots later suspended *following the discovery of contaminants*, Japan's health ministry said on Saturday.​​https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/​
> The vaccine was contaminated. That is why its use was suspended.


Thanks for saving us the trouble of googling that. Some people are spewing disinformation like a smoker blowing chains of smoke rings.


----------



## Butterfly

Dancing_Queen said:


> I expect court cases, too; after all, we're extremely litigious about everything even if the cases are frivolous.  However, we need to note that employers practically "own" employees.  If there are no violations of state or federal laws, employers can do whatever they please.  And in *"right to work" states they can fire people for any reason or no reason without even giving a reason unless there's a contract with stipulations about this.*


What you mean is "at will" states.  "Right to work" means a person can not
to be forced to join a labor union or pay union dues as a condition of employment.

They are two very different things.


----------



## Butterfly

I got the Pfizer vaccines and my sister got the Moderna ones -- not that we chose different vaccines, but we got the one that was being given at the vaccination sites to which we were referred depending on when we came up on our state's Department of Health's priority list.  I got mine a month sooner than she did because I am older.

Anyway, neither of us had any reactions to speak of, and we don't know of anyone else who had any negative reaction, either.

I'd also like to point out that just because someone has a negative reaction to a vaccine does not mean there's anything wrong with the vaccine itself, any more than someone having a violent reaction to peanuts means there is anything wrong with peanuts.


----------



## Jennina

Dancing_Queen said:


> Pauline, please note whose website you're referencing.  If I had a website and wanted to say that I'd developed the vaccine for the rhinovirus, would you reference that as truth?


Me: I am Venus
Pauline : No you're not. Prove it.
Me: Check out my website


----------



## win231

Butterfly said:


> I got the Pfizer vaccines and my sister got the Moderna ones -- not that we chose different vaccines, but we got the one that was being given at the vaccination sites to which we were referred depending on when we came up on our state's Department of Health's priority list.  I got mine a month sooner than she did because I am older.
> 
> Anyway, neither of us had any reactions to speak of, and we don't know of anyone else who had any negative reaction, either.
> 
> I'd also like to point out that just because someone has a negative reaction to a vaccine does not mean there's anything wrong with the vaccine itself, any more than someone having a violent reaction to peanuts means there is anything wrong with peanuts.


I don't know of anyone who became seriously ill from Covid - or anyone who even got Covid.  That doesn't mean Covid is not a big deal for anyone; like any illness, it can be very serious or deadly for some.
Good point about peanuts.  I have known some people for whom peanuts and shellfish can be fatal.  And the only way they could find out about their allergies was by almost dying.  That's the only way to know.  Maybe that's what concerns people who don't want the Covid vaccine.  And it's their right & no one else's.


----------



## terry123

I just know that here in the Med Center in Houston the ICU beds are filled with covid patients that did not get their shots.  Surgeries are being put off because there are no beds, regular and ICU ones.  I know because of the 2 nurses that live here in the complex and what they are finding at their work.  It also is reported widely here on the local news.  I am thankful that all of my family have had their shots and we will get the booster when our 8 months is up.


----------



## John cycling

Vaccination media:  Our vaccines are completely safe and no one is dying from them.
Intelligent people:  The vaccines are dangerous and many people are suffering and dying because of them.
Vaccination media:  No they aren't.  Check out our misinformation campaign and our CEO fact checking sites.
= = = = =
Vaccination media:  Millions of people are dying from an imaginary virus;
Intelligent people:  No they aren't.  You're making up all those lies in your media.
Vaccination media:  No we aren't.  Check out our many propaganda media connections for proof.


----------



## Nathan

John cycling said:


> Vaccination media:  Our vaccines are completely safe and no one is dying from them.
> Intelligent people:  The vaccines are dangerous and many people are suffering and dying because of them.
> Vaccination media:  No they aren't.  Check out our misinformation campaign and our CEO fact checking sites.
> = = = = =
> Vaccination media:  Millions of people are dying from an imaginary virus;
> Intelligent people:  No they aren't.  You're making up all those lies in your media.
> Vaccination media:  No we aren't.  Check out our many propaganda media connections for proof.


Apparently you consider yourself to be in the class of "intelligent people", perhaps you _are_ intelligent, but the media sources you feed your brain from don't reflect that "intelligence" that you claim.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

Butterfly said:


> What you mean is "at will" states.  "Right to work" means a person can not
> to be forced to join a labor union or pay union dues as a condition of employment.
> 
> They are two very different things.


You're right, Butterfly.  I misspoke.  Thank you for correcting me.  An "at will" state is what I defined above while using the wrong term.

"At-will means that an employer can terminate an employee at any time for any reason, except an illegal one, or for no reason without incurring legal liability.  Likewise, an employee is free to leave a job at any time for any or no reason with no adverse legal consequences.

"At-will also means that an employer can change the terms of the employment relationship with no notice and no consequences.  For example, an employer can alter wages, terminate benefits, or reduce paid time off.  In its unadulterated form, the U.S. at-will rule leaves employees vulnerable to arbitrary and sudden dismissal, a limited or on-call work schedule depending on the employer’s needs, and unannounced cuts in pay and benefits."

It seems that this was written in 2008 at which time Montana was the only state that wasn't at-will.  I'd have to search around to see if that's still the case.  I haven't dealt with this since about 2000.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-employment-overview.aspx


----------



## Butterfly

John cycling said:


> Vaccination media:  Our vaccines are completely safe and no one is dying from them.
> Intelligent people:  The vaccines are dangerous and many people are suffering and dying because of them.
> Vaccination media:  No they aren't.  Check out our misinformation campaign and our CEO fact checking sites.
> = = = = =
> Vaccination media:  Millions of people are dying from an imaginary virus;
> Intelligent people:  No they aren't.  You're making up all those lies in your media.
> Vaccination media:  No we aren't.  Check out our many propaganda media connections for proof.



If the virus is imaginary, what happened to all those people we've been burying?  Or were they imaginary people?  I knew some of those imaginary people who died of the imaginary virus.

I don't know how any rational person can deny that the virus exists, or that it has caused an enormous death toll and suffering around the world.

"Completely safe?"  I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the vaccines are completely safe.  Nothing is completely safe.  Asprin isn't completely safe; eating dinner isn't completely safe; penicillin isn't completely safe, yet it has saved millions of lives.

Some may have died from reactions to the vaccines, but that number is infinitesimal when compared to the millions the virus has killed and is still killing.


----------



## HoneyNut

The UK nurse guy has an interesting video on the comparative risks of side effects of shots versus getting sick.  And apparently the delta is so infectious we are all going to be exposed eventually (hopefully not all at once tho!).


----------



## Della

Butterfly said:


> I'd also like to point out that just because someone has a negative reaction to a vaccine does not mean there's anything wrong with the vaccine itself, any more than someone having a violent reaction to peanuts means there is anything wrong with peanuts.


That's such a good point and we don't hear it spelled out often enough.  Quite a few people have had bad allergic reactions to penicillin but look at all the lives it saved.  I know it saved mine a few times.  What a shame it would have been if we'd shelved  penicillin because some people were allergic to it.


----------



## win231

Della said:


> That's such a good point and we don't hear it spelled out often enough.  Quite a few people have had bad allergic reactions to penicillin but look at all the lives it saved.  I know it saved mine a few times.  What a shame it would have been if we'd shelved  penicillin because some people were allergic to it.


The difference is, penicillin is not used unless there is already an infection - unlike a vaccine which is used to prevent an illness before there is one.  When antibiotics are overused, (as they have been), they create bacteria that are resistant.
https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/antibiotic-overuse.html


----------



## Butterfly

win231 said:


> The difference is, penicillin is not used unless there is already an infection - unlike a *vaccine which is used to prevent an illness before there is one.  *When antibiotics are overused, (as they have been), they create bacteria that are resistant.
> https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/antibiotic-overuse.html



Which is of course the whole point of vaccines and why they are such a boon to mankind.  How much harder and more tenuous our lives would be if we were still having to deal with smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, yellow fever, rabies, etc., etc., etc.


----------



## win231

Butterfly said:


> Which is of course the whole point of vaccines and why they are such a boon to mankind.  How much harder and more tenuous our lives would be if we were still having to deal with smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, yellow fever, rabies, etc., etc., etc.


Most people (like myself) who don't trust the Covid vaccine have no problem with the vaccines you mentioned.
As a child, I have a vague memory of eating a pink-colored cube of sugar at the doctor's office, which I heard later was for polio.  I've never had a polio shot.  I've never had a smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough or yellow fever vaccine.  I do remember getting a measles shot when I was 9 & my mother took me to Europe with her.
The individuals who say _"Anyone who doesn't want a Covid vaccine is an "Anti Vaxxer" _are simply trying to make them appear as kooks or paranoid.  The real reason is they are "Controllers"  who gain confidence from others who make the same decisions they make, and their anger comes from them already being unsure of their decision.


----------



## Irwin

Buckeye said:


> I know this is hard for you to understand, but what makes you an anti-vaxxer isn't your vaccination status - it is your never ending posts about the evils of the vaccination, and the lies and mistruths about Covid.  Kook and Paranoid?  Your words, not mine.  And your attempts to explain the motivation for folks who call you out is totally wrong.  It isn't about control or being unsure.  It is about saving lives and your refusal to understand that you are putting lives in danger by your ignorant posts and your apparent glee at doing so.



These anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are like suicide bombers. They're willing to sacrifice their own lives for their ideology.


----------



## John cycling

Instead of beating around the bush and using fake names, let's call it what it is. 
As a healthy person who doesn't put poison in my body, I am anti-poison, i.e. an anti-poisoner.
Therefore, I'm an "anti-poison putter in my body-er," which includes not getting poisonous vaccinations.

I have to laugh at the inane comments about healthy people like me being mislead, when those of you 
casting dispersions are the same ones who can't wait to inject yourselves with poisons to "save" yourselves.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> These anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are like suicide bombers. They're willing to sacrifice their own lives for their ideology.


Yes, I'm getting my vest ready & praying to Allah for 70 virgins right now.


----------



## ohioboy

Dancing_Queen said:


> It seems that this was written in 2008 at which time Montana was the only state that wasn't at-will.  I'd have to search around to see if that's still the case.  I haven't dealt with this since about 2000.


It's still "at will" until the probationary period is over. One of the 1st cases I read while boning up on employment law was Monge v. Beebe rubber Co.


----------



## ohioboy

Butterfly said:


> The matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The 1905 Supreme Court decision in the case Jacobson v. Massachusetts. The court ruled against a man who had refused to be vaccinated against smallpox, stating: "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others." The Supreme Court explicitly upheld vaccine mandates against deadly diseases in _Jacobson_, where it explained: "the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand."


The ruling has exemptions for people also.


----------



## Della

win231 said:


> The real reason is they are "Controllers" who gain confidence from others who make the same decisions they make, and their anger comes from them already being unsure of their decision.


They aren't controllers, they're carers.  People who are sad to read about hospitals overrun from the disease so that some people are dying in the hallways, nurses and doctors so overworked they haven't had a break in over a year, cruise ships held away from shore for months because everyone was sick and of course worst of all, hundreds of thousands of people of all ages dying before their time. 

Those people who care about others were overjoyed when they first heard that a vaccine had been formulated. They pictured a world where, like had happened with smallpox, enough people would take the vaccine that the virus would die out and we could all go back to normal.  That didn't happen because too many people refused to have the shots and ruined the whole plan so that the disease is not only still here but has mutated into something worse.  That's why some people are angry.


----------



## charry

win231 said:


> I never heard that & if I did, I'd say "goodbye" & change doctors.


I’ve not heard it yet , but if I heard it , I would tell them where to go....
Sorry , but we all have our own choices ......or do we ?


----------



## charry

John cycling said:


> Exactly.  Contrary to some of the postings here, I've seen reports that vaccination company employees are not required to be shot with the poisons.  Additionally, there have been cases of vaccination syringes found that contained nothing more than saline solution.
> 
> Regardless of that, whether any person has poisons injected should be the choice of each and every individual person, with absolutely no coercion or pressure, not greedy inhumane strangers who live in ivory towers and broadcast their demands and misinformation through their corporate owned media.


We ve now got a third vac being dished out-to the over 80s and vulnerable+....as the first vac hasn’t worked......I really can’t/believe these idiots , believing them and having poison shoved into them........common sense , where has it gone ?


----------



## Becky1951

Della said:


> They aren't controllers, they're carers.  People who are sad to read about hospitals overrun from the disease so that some people are dying in the hallways, nurses and doctors so overworked they haven't had a break in over a year, cruise ships held away from shore for months because everyone was sick and of course worst of all, hundreds of thousands of people of all ages dying before their time.
> 
> Those people who care about others were overjoyed when they first heard that a vaccine had been formulated. They pictured a world where, like had happened with smallpox, enough people would take the vaccine that the virus would die out and we could all go back to normal.  That didn't happen because too many people refused to have the shots and ruined the whole plan so that the disease is not only still here but has mutated into something worse.  That's why some people are angry.


"That didn't happen because too many people refused to have the shots and ruined the whole plan" 

In a perfect world *everyone*, *in every country *would have to have been vaccinated with a 100% effective vaccine all within a *very short amount of time *to eradicate the virus.  Now look back and remember that some countries didn't start to vaccinated until many months later due to not having any vaccine or having enough. Remember the difficulties with the vaccine rollout?  Not enough vaccine in some areas, areas having to wait, people trying to get appointment online to be vaccinated. Facilities needing to prepare for the extreme temperature needed to store enough vaccine, as yet at that time unvaccinated countries allowing travel go on for so long. And everyone of all ages would have to of been vaccinated to begin with, not just the elderly.


----------



## win231

Della said:


> They aren't controllers, they're carers.  People who are sad to read about hospitals overrun from the disease so that some people are dying in the hallways, nurses and doctors so overworked they haven't had a break in over a year, cruise ships held away from shore for months because everyone was sick and of course worst of all, hundreds of thousands of people of all ages dying before their time.
> 
> Those people who care about others were overjoyed when they first heard that a vaccine had been formulated. They pictured a world where, like had happened with smallpox, enough people would take the vaccine that the virus would die out and we could all go back to normal.  That didn't happen because too many people refused to have the shots and ruined the whole plan so that the disease is not only still here but has mutated into something worse.  That's why some people are angry.


Well, if no one flatters you, you just have to do it yourself:

_Self Flattery_: The holding of an unjustifiably high opinion of oneself or one's actions.


----------



## Dancing_Queen

charry said:


> We ve now got a third vac being dished out-to the over 80s and vulnerable+....as the first vac hasn’t worked......I really can’t/believe these idiots , believing them and having poison shoved into them........common sense , where has it gone ?


Where did you get the idea that the first vaccine hasn't worked, Charry?  

1.  They work very well.  However, we now have a new variant (Delta) against which it still works, but not quite as well.  Also, the immunity starts to drop at about six months.

2.  Many vaccines are either three-dose vaccines or require boosters because the immunity starts to drop.  That's what's happening here.


----------



## PamfromTx

If the subject of the Covid-19 vaccine is going to cause so much distress.... shouldn't it be 'locked' or banned for further discussion.  It seems that the non believers will never be convinced of the effectiveness of the vaccine.  This thread will keep on going and going.


----------



## Della

win231 said:


> Well, if no one flatters you, you just have to do it yourself:
> 
> _Self Flattery_: The holding of an unjustifiably high opinion of oneself or one's actions.


Look up the difference between the words, "they" and "I."  When people are talking about themselves they use the word "I".  When they are talking about other people they use "they." 

 In the above case you used a slur (controlling) against people who got vaccinated. I was defending_ them. _


----------



## Becky1951

PamfromTx said:


> If the subject of the Covid-19 vaccine is going to cause so much distress.... shouldn't it be 'locked' or banned for further discussion.  It seems that the non believers will never be convinced of the effectiveness of the vaccine.  This thread will keep on going and going.


Locking or banning a discussion on Covid vaccines is a form of censorship.  Is it fair to do that? Is only those who old one belief allowed to discuss it?


----------



## PamfromTx

Becky1951 said:


> Locking or banning a discussion on Covid vaccines is a form of censorship.  Is it fair to do that? Is only those who old one belief allowed to discuss it?





Becky1951 said:


> Locking or banning a discussion on Covid vaccines is a form of censorship.  Is it fair to do that? Is only those who old one belief allowed to discuss it?


You won't get a debate from me, @Becky1951    Life is too short for this.   It is simply a suggestion which will probably fall on deaf ears.

If Politics are banned, why can't Covid-19 be banned as well.  Replies have been so cruel by some.


----------



## Becky1951

PamfromTx said:


> You won't get a debate from me, @Becky1951    Life is too short for this.   It is simply a suggestion which will probably fall on deaf ears.
> 
> If Politics are banned, why can't Covid-19 be banned as well.  Replies have been so cruel by some.


Yes plenty of cruel replies from both sides and that was and is uncalled for. But the subject of Covid isn't the only thread that has had cruel comments in them. I remember a few cruel comments to Deb regarding the condition of her old home and her items for sale.


----------



## MrPants

I saw on the news last night groups of up to 2,000 anti-vaxers/Covid 19 deniers and people unhappy with the coming vaccine passport systems are starting to launch aggressive protests outside select hospitals in both Toronto and Vancouver. 
I can't tell you how angry that makes me!! You can doubt the severity of the virus and you can choose not to take the vaccination but DO NOT bring your protests to hospitals creating passage issues for sick patients and hurl insults at our healthcare workers as they come and go  

What kind of human being does that? Despicable!! Hospitals are NOT where policy for vaccinations, mask wearing or vaccine passports are made. Go demonstrate at city hall or the Provincial Parliament buildings. Our healthcare workers are simply there to help people who are in need- yes, even you deniers when you need their help. They have been overworked for almost 2 years now and are at a breaking point in some cases. We should be praising these people, not hurling insults and making them anxious just coming and going from their workplace 

Everyone has a right to protest in a free country but there's a place to do that and it's NOT at hospitals disrupting the good work that goes on there. I'm disgusted and embarrassed to be a member of the same species as these idiots!

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-...ests-outside-hospitals-went-too-far-1.5572629


----------



## win231

Dancing_Queen said:


> Where did you get the idea that the first vaccine hasn't worked, Charry?
> 
> 1.  They work very well.  However, we now have a new variant (Delta) against which it still works, but not quite as well.  Also, the immunity starts to drop at about six months.
> 
> 2.  Many vaccines are either three-dose vaccines or require boosters because the immunity starts to drop.  That's what's happening here.


Yes, it's like the Rabies vaccine.  You need at least 14 of them.


----------



## Butterfly

ohioboy said:


> The ruling has exemptions for people also.


Yeah, but they are pretty narrow -- for verified medical reasons only as far as I can tell.


----------



## ohioboy

Butterfly said:


> Yeah, but they are pretty narrow -- for verified medical reasons only as far as I can tell.


Religious exemptions can be argued also, unknown if that has been challenged and upheld without net surfing.


----------



## Butterfly

PamfromTx said:


> If the subject of the Covid-19 vaccine is going to cause so much distress.... shouldn't it be 'locked' or banned for further discussion.  It seems that the non believers will never be convinced of the effectiveness of the vaccine.  This thread will keep on going and going.



What's wrong with the thread going on and on?  The virus/vaccines/masks, etc., are, like it or not, in the great big middle of most of our lives right now and one of the reasons this forum is so valuable is that it gives us a place to go and talk about what is going on in our lives and what is important to us.

If we get rid of every topic that is controversial, we might just as well have a forum about kittens and recipes, and there are about a zillion of those out there already.

Those who object to the thread or the subject going on and on should just avoid these threads.  It looks to me like the virus is going to go on and on and so, naturally, are our concerns about it and our need to discuss it with others.


----------



## charry

Dancing_Queen said:


> Where did you get the idea that the first vaccine hasn't worked, Charry?
> 
> 1.  They work very well.  However, we now have a new variant (Delta) against which it still works, but not quite as well.  Also, the immunity starts to drop at about six months.
> 
> 2.  Many vaccines are either three-dose vaccines or require boosters because the immunity starts to drop.  That's what's happening here.


They are using us all as guinea pigs ....if you don’t mind , then go ahead....
My son , is a pharmacist.......so  I hear everything upfront !!


----------



## win231

Della said:


> Look up the difference between the words, "they" and "I."  When people are talking about themselves they use the word "I".  When they are talking about other people they use "they."
> 
> In the above case you used a slur (controlling) against people who got vaccinated. I was defending_ them. _


How about trying some simple logic?  A "Controller" is not someone who got vaccinated.  A Controller is someone who wants _everyone else_ to get vaccinated.  A Controller is someone who tells everyone else what to do.


----------



## charry

win231 said:


> How about trying some simple logic?  A "Controller" is not someone who got vaccinated.  A Controller is someone who wants _everyone else_ to get vaccinated.  A Controller is someone who tells everyone else what to do.


Exactly Win


----------



## kssf

I have heard not good things about the CDC and FDA from my pharmacist here where I live - I believe I will make the best decision "I hope" for whether I get a booster or not.  I did call my business office at hospital today to see if insurance pays for a blood test to check for antibodies so will do that maybe sometime this month.  I don't want to get a booster if I have pretty good immunity.


----------



## Irwin

If I do a cost/benefit analysis on the booster, the cost is pretty trivial... just a little needle poke while I'm at the grocery store and maybe a few little side effects like a slight bit of dizziness, which is what I experienced from the first two shots. The benefit can vary from none, if I'm never exposed to the virus, to life saving, if I am.

So for me, it's an easy decision. When I get the shot, I'm not going to be ostracized for going against a group's ideology since I don't belong to any groups and I'm already ostracized for not being friendly and bubbly around the neighborhood.   

For other people, they don't want to be excluded from their anti-vax, anti-mask groups, which are also their political groups, so the cost is much higher, albeit it's purely psychological since the vaccine has proven to be safe for all but less than 1/2 a percent of the recipients.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> If I do a cost/benefit analysis on the booster, the cost is pretty trivial... just a little needle poke while I'm at the grocery store and maybe a few little side effects like a slight bit of dizziness, which is what I experienced from the first two shots. The benefit can vary from none, if I'm never exposed to the virus, to life saving, if I am.
> 
> So for me, it's an easy decision. When I get the shot, I'm not going to be ostracized for going against a group's ideology since I don't belong to any groups and I'm already ostracized for not being friendly and bubbly around the neighborhood.
> 
> For other people, they don't want to be excluded from their anti-vax, anti-mask groups, which are also their political groups, so the cost is much higher, albeit it's purely psychological since the vaccine has proven to be safe for all but less than 1/2 a percent of the recipients.


Interesting (and a bit amusing) that you are trying so hard to bolster your confidence in the vaccine's safety & effectiveness.


----------



## win231

Pink Biz said:


> @AlbertBourla
> ·
> Mar 10
> 
> Excited to receive my 2nd dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech #COVID19 vaccine. There's nothing I want more than for my loved ones and people around the world to have the same opportunity. Although the journey is far from over, we are working tirelessly to beat the virus.
> View attachment 180952


Pretty good reason why it's a photo instead of a video.  Anyone see the needle going into Mr. Pfizer's arm?
You may remember several years ago when they were trying to sell everyone a Smallpox Booster due to the threat of "Terrorists walking around spraying Smallpox on crowds of people Christmas shopping."
George Bush Jr. wanted to set an example to get people to get smallpox vaccinations, so they videotaped him walking into the hospital wearing a coat, then leaving a few minutes later with his sleeve rolled up, while reporters announced that _"The President just got his Smallpox vaccination, so it must be a wonderful idea."
Of course, they didn't show him getting any vaccine - much like the above photo._
Uh.......yeah, there were probably enough fools who bought it.


----------



## Gary O'

Pauline1954 said:


> My search has been about injuries and deaths from the vaccinations. Everything else are just tidbits or things i glimpsed. Its this injuries and deaths that I have been learning about and they are very sad and horrid.


I haven't done much research, but (I'll post it again)...my son died last April,  within 4 days after getting the vaccine.
Nobody (research, links, whatever) can change my stance.
I so miss my son


----------



## Pepper

win231 said:


> George Bush Jr. wanted to set an example to get people to get smallpox vaccinations, so they videotaped him walking into the hospital wearing a coat, then leaving a few minutes later with his sleeve rolled up, while reporters announced that _"The President just got his Smallpox vaccination, so it must be a wonderful idea."
> Of course, they didn't show him getting any vaccine - much like the above photo._
> Uh.......yeah, there were probably enough fools who bought it.


George Jr.?  Who dat?  George W.?  Anyway there have been no Smallpox vaccines for Americans since 1972, about 50 years.  Don't understand your anecdote, sir.


----------



## win231

Pepper said:


> George Jr.?  Who dat?  George W.?  Anyway there have been no Smallpox vaccines for Americans since 1972, about 50 years.  Don't understand your anecdote, sir.


You're not aware of the "Terrorist Scare" after 9-11?
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/22/...tacks-led-push-for-more-smallpox-vaccine.html

https://www.ll.mit.edu/media/8341

In late September, in the days before a series of anthrax-tainted letters made bioterrorism a reality in the United States, President Bush decided that the federal government should acquire enough vaccine to protect every American against an even more menacing biological threat: smallpox.
Although smallpox was eradicated as a disease in the 1970's, American intelligence had suspected for years that Iraq and North Korea, and possibly other rogue nations, had maintained clandestine stocks of the deadly smallpox virus.
But officials say it was the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and not any new information, that prompted the president's decision to greatly expand the nation's smallpox vaccine stockpile.
The decision, which was not publicly announced, gained urgency when letters containing potentially lethal anthrax powder began arriving at news organizations and on Capitol Hill. The anthrax scares produced widespread fears that the nation would run short of the antibiotic Cipro. So senior administration officials quietly sped up their timetable for acquiring the smallpox vaccine.


----------



## squirrel

Pauline1954 said:


> Im hearing  this now.  Anyone else hear this too now?


i know someone in Australia and i was told this happened to them as well.


----------



## Pepper

I forgot, @win231


----------



## win231

Pepper said:


> I forgot, @win231


I tried to find the video on You Tube, but couldn't.  Maybe they deleted it after people made fun of it because it was so asinine.
Here is an article about it:
https://www.cnn.com/2002/US/12/21/bush.smallpox/index.html


----------



## Pepper

From the CNN article:
*The White House said Bush showed no immediate side effects from the vaccine, which can sicken and sometimes kill recipients.*

I never heard that before!


----------



## Shero

I respect the integrity of any doctor who will not see an unvaccinated patient.


----------



## Pauline1954

Gary O' said:


> I haven't done much research, but (I'll post it again)...my son died last April,  within 4 days after getting the vaccine.
> Nobody (research, links, whatever) can change my stance.
> I so miss my son


Im so sorry for your loss.


----------



## chic

Pauline1954 said:


> Im so sorry for your loss.


I'm so sorry @Pauline1954. What a heartache. To answer your original question, where I live no doctors, that I have heard of, are refusing to see patients due to vaccination status.


----------



## Pauline1954

Shero said:


> I respect the integrity of any doctor who will not see an unvaccinated patient.


Really!  Thats an ethical violation and possibly be a legal issue against the Doctor.  And I certainly wouldnt call it iNTEGRITY becausea doctor refuses to see patients that are sick.  Wouldnt it be great to be able to discriminate and get away with it. No, and thats why there are laws against it.

Obviously, this issue was brought before AMA and other legal heads. This is a current article. 

Here isa paragraph From the AMA .

Can physicians decline unvaccinated patients?​Updated Sept. 15, 2021
In general, no, a physician should not refuse a patient simply because the individual is not vaccinated or declines to be vaccinated. The commitment to care for those who are sick or injured carries with it a duty to treat in other circumstances as well, including public health crises when a physician may face “greater than usual risks to [their] own safety, health or life” (Opinion 8.3, Physician responsibility for disaster response and preparedness). Nor may a physician ethically turn a patient away based solely on the individual’s infectious disease status, or for any reason that would constitute discrimination against a class or category of patients (Opinion 1.1.2, Prospective patients).


----------



## kssf

I guess they just dress in protected gowns and and goggles and PPE - their oath makes it mandatory because they are doctors I suppose.  They have to treat the "sick" - I'm sure most of them got vaccinated and probably had the virus too being around sick people all the time - in my opinion.


----------



## Shero




----------



## win231

If a doctor can refuse to treat a patient who isn't vaccinated, why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with lung disease who won't quit smoking or quit his job at a factory that produces harmful fumes & toxins?
Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with heart disease who eats an unhealthy diet? (in the doctor's opinion)
Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with diabetes who eats too much sugar?
Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with arthritis that the doctor blames on obesity or a lack of exercise?


----------



## chic

win231 said:


> If a doctor can refuse to treat a patient who isn't vaccinated, why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with lung disease who won't quit smoking or quit his job at a factory that produces harmful fumes & toxins?
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with heart disease who eats an unhealthy diet? (in the doctor's opinion)
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with diabetes who eats too much sugar?
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with arthritis that the doctor blames on obesity or a lack of exercise?


Right. I thought they took the Hippocratic Oath. Shouldn't that mean they are committed to helping people? How does refusal to treat someone based on vaccination status help anything? People will start dying of treatable illnesses if this is allowed to continue.


----------



## Irwin

It seems that the AMA code of ethics allows doctors to refuse to treat non-vaccinated people:

6) "A physician shall, in the provision of appropriate patient care, except in emergencies, be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical care."
https://www.ama-assn.org/about/publications-newsletters/ama-principles-medical-ethics


----------



## MrPants

win231 said:


> If a doctor can refuse to treat a patient who isn't vaccinated, why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with lung disease who won't quit smoking or quit his job at a factory that produces harmful fumes & toxins?
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with heart disease who eats an unhealthy diet? (in the doctor's opinion)
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with diabetes who eats too much sugar?
> Why can't a doctor refuse to treat a patient with arthritis that the doctor blames on obesity or a lack of exercise?


None of those are communicable viruses. Covid-19 is so you're comparing apples to oranges. The reason doctors might want to refuse treatment is to protect themselves, staff and other patients because according to your own (USA) Center for Disease Control:
"According to the CDC, unvaccinated people were six times more likely to contract the virus."
If you don't trust your own Center for Disease Control then, that's a whole other problem and I can't help you with that.

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/h...cases/67-b9bd9619-c089-4858-be79-5d3213153431


----------



## Don M.

Around here, any health care facility....hospital, PCP, dentist, eye doctor, etc., requires a mask, and takes the temperature, etc., of anyone who comes through the door.   I can easily understand such facilities being extra cautious, as the doctors, nurses and assistants have to be in close proximity to their patients.


----------



## win231

Don M. said:


> Around here, any health care facility....hospital, PCP, dentist, eye doctor, etc., requires a mask, and takes the temperature, etc., of anyone who comes through the door.   I can easily understand such facilities being extra cautious, as the doctors, nurses and assistants have to be in close proximity to their patients.


My temperature is taken at every dental visit & I only take off my mask for treatment - as required in my county.  But there is no vaccination requirement & there are no vaccination questions.  The one doctor I see occasionally does not take temperature & neither does my optometrist. Just mask requirement.


----------



## Irwin

Covid-19 patients are overwhelming our hospitals here in Colorado. 81% of the hospitalized covid-19 patients are unvaccinated.

Gov. Jared Polis (D) signed an executive order over the weekend authorizing the state’s public health department to determine whether hospitals or emergency departments are at or will soon hit capacity. The department can order such facilities to halt admissions and redirect or transfer patients, according to the order that will be in effect for 30 days starting Sunday.​https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/02/colorado-polis-hospital-turn-away-patients/​


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## GAlady

Murrmurr said:


> I've heard it, but it isn't happening here. Some medical groups here are steering unvaxxed patients toward online appointments, though.


Vaxxed an unvaxxed both can carry Covid.


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## win231

MrPants said:


> None of those are communicable viruses. Covid-19 is so you're comparing apples to oranges. The reason doctors might want to refuse treatment is to protect themselves, staff and other patients because according to your own (USA) Center for Disease Control:
> "According to the CDC, unvaccinated people were six times more likely to contract the virus."
> If you don't trust your own Center for Disease Control then, that's a whole other problem and I can't help you with that.
> 
> https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/h...cases/67-b9bd9619-c089-4858-be79-5d3213153431


OK, so if a patient who had a flu shot gets the flu, (which is a communicable virus), & has breathing problems, doctors should have the right to refuse treatment?


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## MrPants

GAlady said:


> Vaxxed an unvaxxed both can carry Covid.


Yes that's true but, not at the same rate. Uvaxxed are 6 to 1 more likely to contract the virus (CDC figures - not mine) and when they do have a more significant viral load to spread to others. Viral load means a lot with this virus. It's not a one size fits all situation. The stronger the viral load you contract and carry, the more like you are to spread the virus to others plus the more severe your own symptoms are likely to be ending with a poor result for you. This is why the vast majority of hospitalizations involve unvaccinated people.
Of course, other pre-existing, chronic health conditions + age play a part in this as well so it's a fairly complex situation with many factors in play.


win231 said:


> OK, so if a patient who had a flu shot gets the flu, (which is a communicable virus), & has breathing problems, doctors should have the right to refuse treatment?


Yes.


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## win231

MrPants said:


> Yes that's true but, not at the same rate. Uvaxxed are 6 to 1 more likely to contract the virus (CDC figures - not mine) and when they do have a more significant viral load to spread to others. Viral load means a lot with this virus. It's not a one size fits all situation. The stronger the viral load you contract and carry, the more like you are to spread the virus to others plus the more severe your own symptoms are likely to be ending with a poor result for you. This is why the vast majority of hospitalizations involve unvaccinated people.
> Of course, other pre-existing, chronic health conditions + age play a part in this as well so it's a fairly complex situation with many factors in play.
> 
> Yes.


Thank you for clarifying the world you live in - A world of your own making.


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## MrPants

win231 said:


> Thank you for clarifying the world you live in - A world of your own making.


Yes


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