# Texas Cop shoots woman to death inside her own home.



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Here we go again.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...r-shoots-woman-death-inside-her-home-n1065451


> A Fort Worth police officer checking out a residence with an open door opened fire on a woman inside her home, killing her, authorities said.
> 
> The shooting early Saturday occurred less than two weeks after a police officer in nearby Dallas was found guilty of murder for fatally shooting a man in his home in 2018. In both cases the officers are white and the victims were African American.
> 
> ...


----------



## toffee (Oct 14, 2019)

LIL' GUN HO' I SAY IN TEXAS IT SEEMS !


----------



## hollydolly (Oct 14, 2019)

I saw that in the news yesterday. Couldn't help but think ''yet another white cop shooting an innocent black person in their own home''... what on earth is going on?


----------



## hollydolly (Oct 14, 2019)

_The white police officer who shot dead a 28-year-old woman through the window of her home in Fort Worth while performing a wellness check did not identify himself as law enforcement before he opened fire. 

The officer and his colleague were called to the home by a neighbor who noticed that Atatiana Jefferson's front door was open at around 2.30am Saturday. 

Atatiana was playing video games with her eight-year-old nephew when they heard a noise outside and she got up to investigate, assuming it was a prowler. 

Body camera footage released by the Fort Worth Police Department shows the officer, who has not been identified publicly, shining a flashlight into the back side home as Atatiana approached the bedroom window.  

'Put your hands up! Show me your hands!' he shouts through the window with his gun drawn.   

A split-second later, the officer fired a single shot, killing Atatiana in front of her nephew. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...black-woman-home-DID-NOT-identify-police.html_


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

> Merritt accused police of 'villianizing' Atatiana by releasing photos of the gun that was allegedly found in the home.



So what if there was a gun in the house?

It's Texas for Christ sake.

I'd venture to say most houses in Texas have at least one gun in them.

If I hear a strange noise in the middle of the night, chances are I'm going to get my gun before I go to check it out.

This is just the cops looking for some way to cover for one of their own.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 14, 2019)

I live down here, I'm tired of the embarrassment that some of our folks bring to the region.   When I see a particular gruesome event on news or radio, my first thought is': "I hope it was not here (Texas.)   DAMN!


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> I live down here, I'm tired of the embarrassment that some of our folk do.  When I see a particular gruesome event on news or radio, my first thought is': "I hope it was not here (Texas.)   DAMN!



I feel your pain. 

I'm originally from Florida.


----------



## Pink Biz (Oct 14, 2019)

*Outrageous and so very tragic. Cop should be fired immediately.*


----------



## Pappy (Oct 14, 2019)

I heard he just resigned. More news to come.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 14, 2019)

Any event that makes folks aghast will be beat to death on the media drum.  This 'cop kills woman inside her home' is a
catalyst: Their already interviewing relatives and others that have no relevant information;  their  offered an opportunity to give their opinion
of 'what happened.'  We know what happened, (apparently?)  let the court's deal with it. 
That is not going to happen, were going to be feed a daily dose of rehashing- WHY?
,


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> Any event that makes folks aghast will be beat to death on the media drum.  This 'cop kills woman inside her home' is a
> catalyst: Their already interviewing relatives and others that have no relevant information;  their  offered an opportunity to give their opinion
> of 'what happened.'  We know what happened, (apparently?)  let the court's deal with it.
> That is not going to happen, were going to be feed a daily dose of rehashing- WHY?,



Because I'm tired of seeing cops get away with murdering black people. This shit needs to be put out in the open instead of swept under the rug. Then maybe the public outrage and pressure can bring about some change.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> I live down here, *I'm tired of the embarrassment that some of our folks bring to the region*.   When I see a particular gruesome event on news or radio, my first thought is': "I hope it was not here (Texas.)   DAMN!


You must be tired a lot.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> I feel your pain.
> I'm originally from Florida.


Yeah, I was going to say "It used to be Florida"
Every state gets its crazy time!


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 14, 2019)

Pink Biz said:


> *Outrageous and so very tragic. Cop should be fired immediately.*



And tried for murder.


----------



## fmdog44 (Oct 14, 2019)

Pink Biz said:


> *Outrageous and so very tragic. Cop should be fired immediately.*


He quit the force.


----------



## fmdog44 (Oct 14, 2019)

hollydolly said:


> I saw that in the news yesterday. Couldn't help but think ''yet another white cop shooting an innocent black person in their own home''... what on earth is going on?


Immediately light the fire. Well done ☠


----------



## hollydolly (Oct 14, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Immediately light the fire. Well done ☠


 Good Lord, don't like the truth huh?


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

She doesn't have to light it.  It's already lit.
*Police killed 1,147 people in 2017. Black people were 25% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.*
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/


----------



## IrisSenior (Oct 14, 2019)

Really: 'most houses in Texas have at least one gun'. Whoa - guess I will never be visiting Texas.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 14, 2019)

Pepper said:


> She doesn't have to light it.  It's already lit.
> *Police killed 1,147 people in 2017. Black people were 25% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population.*
> https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/



That's lower than I'd have guessed.  Certainly too high regardless.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

IrisSenior said:


> Really: 'most houses in Texas have at least one gun'. Whoa - guess I will never be visiting Texas.



If that's your criteria for not going you are going to have to add a lot more states to that list.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> Because I'm tired of seeing cops get away with murdering black people. This shit needs to be put out in the open instead of swept under the rug. Then maybe the public outrage and pressure can bring about some change.



 C'on Trade, You & I lock horns over many things but.......Do you really believe that officer left home that day, reported for work that day, with the thought....I'm going to _shoot & kill_ a *black *person today?............ I do not.

 When a call comes out for a police officer(s) at an address, they [dispatch] sends officers, or an officer. They don't get to pick skin color & or race. And unless it is a heavily ethnic influenced neighborhood, they no not who is calling either.

Some of problem IMO is the lowering of standard of hiring & filling of positions on police depts. When the standards were higher , [regarding physical abilities / size, etc.] Officers were less likely to go for the gun immediately . Add to that the fact that more & more criminals / thugs, these days are carrying guns as well. And we end up with officers that are more 'on-edge' than in the past.

And I'll add, follow the money.....budget cuts & the inability to get taxes passed, cut back on two-man cars. As such we have so many more officers alone, answering these calls.....which means no immediate back-up.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm just glad I'm an old white guy. At least now if I get stopped by a cop and he asks for my ID I can reach for my wallet with a reasonable expectation that I can do so without being shot. I don't know what a black dude is supposed to do in that situation.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> C'on Trade, You & I lock horns over many things but.......Do you really believe that officer left home that day, reported for work that day, with the thought....I'm going to _shoot & kill_ a *black *person today?............ I do not.
> 
> When a call comes out for a police officer(s) at an address, they [dispatch] sends officers, or an officer. They don't get to pick skin color & or race. And unless it is a heavily ethnic influenced neighborhood, they no not who is calling either.
> 
> ...



RPG's defending the white guy that shot the black woman.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> If that's your criteria for not going you are going to have to add a lot more states to that list.



Yep.   Top 10 states. Texas doesn't even make the list. Though I do agree with Trade above that there's at least one gun in most homes in Texas. As for the list, I'm not sure of the accuracy since there's no standardization for gun reporting by state.



State Gun Ownership 2019 Pop. Alaska61.70%735,720Arkansas57.90%3,026,412Idaho56.90%1,790,182West Virginia54.20%1,791,951Wyoming53.80%572,381Montana52.30%1,074,532New Mexico49.90%2,096,034Alabama48.90%4,898,246North Dakota47.90%760,900Hawaii45.10%1,416,589


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 14, 2019)

These cold blooded murders by cops have got to stop...or at least slow down.  Whether this incident was racially motivated or not, there are many that are.  If a person wants to take on the job of policing in the US, they should be well trained, have no personality disorders where they desire to use with power, badge and firearm to bully or kill, they should not be so paranoid and jumpy (trigger-happy) as to shoot first and ask questions later.  They need to cease acting as judge, jury and executioner. They should definitely not be racist, which obviously from past murders by cop, many of them are.

It's a shame that you can't call in a welfare check or 911, without taking the chance of the citizen wanting help from the police department takes a chance of being killed themselves.  Another case was the Vietnam vet in Co., killed by police in his own home.

It doesn't matter if that young woman had a firearm in her home, she was not the one who overreacted and shot someone, it was a 'professional' who did that killing.  May the young woman rest peacefully, sympathy to her family.   

https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/atatiana-jefferson/


----------



## jerry old (Oct 14, 2019)

THERE IS A LOT OF AWFULIZING OF THIS EVENT: It is far to late to state,' it was just awful.'

lWhat are we going to do to assure that such events do not occur again!

The process would be long, difficult and eventually we would get frustrated and give up-that is our history.
Awfulizing, solves nothing. action  solves problems, but we are too darn lazy to pursuer such an event that may well require a decade.
(I'm to laze to be outraged over two weeks-YOU?
The species will yammer a while then 'let it slide,' until a similar event occurs, then respond with more 'yammering.'

*Annie A's* post on the concentration of gun owners was a surprise, People in the northwest have a need for long gun; too many dangerous critters that can eat your up in these regions, especially Alaska.. 

I live in the rural,, we have coyotes. wolves and the occasional cougar, a pistol is required for personal protection. .
There have been sighting of Cougars in a suburban areas of Greater Dallas Area.  We have encroached on their natural habitat , forcing them to seek food in urban areas.  It is not a regional problem, it is a national problem.
(Not to mention India where wild critters come to the city and eat folks dogs and cats...)
Many feel the need to carry a firearm to protect their animal and themselves, when walking their pets,.  That's a hell'va note!

I haven't mentioned the human predators that wander seclude areas in urban areas.

I found Hawaii as one of the largest gun owing states in the nation peculiar.  WHY?
Terrorist are not the problem, it's us!

I'm to damn sorry to get off my butt and take any positive action; I can 'yammer,' that is about it.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 14, 2019)

SeaBreeze said:


> https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/atatiana-jefferson/



Just read this.  So heartbreaking. So, so wrong.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

*AWFULIZING *
Great word Jerry!


----------



## win231 (Oct 14, 2019)

Update:  The idiot cop was charged with murder.  But if he's found guilty, don't expect the same sentence for a non officer.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 14, 2019)

Yes, he was charged with murder.  I hope they throw the book at him.  This one is even more egregious than the last one.  .  I don't see any "excuse" at all for this one  -- I saw in one of the reports that he "perceived a threat," which is patently ridiculous in the circumstances.  He saw movement in the house through the window in the dark -- -um, well, it was an occupied house, no?  What a surprise there might be movement in there!  Then they said they found a gun in the house, well THAT's a big deal (sarcasm).  I live in the southwest, and most of us have guns in the house -- it's not illegal, after all; it's not even suspicious.  There's no indication she had it in her hand -- even if she did, which she didn't, what's so weird about an occupant of a house, hearing prowling around in the backyard in the middle of the night (which the cop was doing) picking up a firearm just in case they needed to defend themselves??

He hadn't even identified himself as a police officer, and he gave the moving person something like 2 seconds to react.  This one is indefensible, IHMO.


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 14, 2019)

win231 said:


> Update:  The idiot cop was charged with murder.  But if he's found guilty, don't expect the same sentence for a non officer.



Michael Slager - 20 yrs
Justin Volpe - 30 yrs


----------



## win231 (Oct 14, 2019)

The cop's defense will be an old one:  "She made a furtive movement with her hand towards the gun."


----------



## win231 (Oct 14, 2019)

applecruncher said:


> Michael Slager - 20 yrs
> Justin Volpe - 30 yrs



Thanks for proving my point. 
Justin Volpe should have been executed.  Or, at least life without parole - in the prison's general population, where he might get the same treatment he gave his victim.
Michael Slager - life without parole would be justice.


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 14, 2019)

@win231

I simply showed that your generalization about cops not getting long sentences didn't always apply. However, we agree about Volpe and Slager. Volpe's crime should sicken any civilized human being.


----------



## win231 (Oct 14, 2019)

applecruncher said:


> @win231
> 
> I simply showed that your generalization about cops not getting long sentences didn't always apply.


A "Long" sentence is relative.  The sentence should fit the crime.  When cops are the criminals, it obviously doesn't.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> RPG's defending the white guy that shot the black woman.



 There you go again, putting words in my mouth.......Why do you do that ? It only kills your credibility. I am not defending anyone. I merely asked you a question, & put forth a scenario . But like always with you it seems, you just cannot stay focused, and respond with a valid argument....


----------



## drifter (Oct 14, 2019)

The officer discussed here resigned before he could could fired. Tonight it was reported he
was arrested and charged with murder. It seems to me there is an understanding In this country, that a cop can shoot black people with no consequences. It nearly always comes back as a justified shooting or justified chocking. I expect a few cops will have to be convicted and sent to the pen before they start thinking, 'this shooting may not be necessary since I don't see anyone pointing a gun at me.'
And I do realize there are times officers put their their lives on the line and shootings are justified.
But often it is murder.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 14, 2019)

trade:
Public outrage has not provide any change that I can remember, expect riot police, national guard-money won't solve the, withdrawal of funds
won't solve the problem; everybody to walk around armed-ok, we can then count the killings by the truckload.  I have no answers and the answer becomes more elusive


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 14, 2019)

win231 said:


> The cop's defense will be an old one:  "She made a furtive movement with her hand towards the gun."



According to reports, he didn't even see who or what sex or what age, or even if it was a human or a pet -- just "movement."   And it was pitch dark both inside the room the movement was in and outside as well.  It could even have been the nephew he shot.  I've read that he didn't see any gun -- it was pitch black and outside a closed window.  Cops just found the gun inside the house when they went in after they murdered that poor woman.  They didn't say where -- it could have been in her sock drawer. 

Even if she had picked up the gun (which she didn't), now it's a capital offense to pick up your own gun in your own home??  She had no way of knowing there were cops lurking in her backyard.  She didn't call them; a neighbor had called them for a welfare check on her because her front door was open, evidently with a closed screen. Nobody needs to wonder about her welfare now, do they?  She's stone cold dead.  Her heinous crime which warranted the cop using lethal force?  Playing video games late at night with her nephew, while black, in the home she had moved back to because her mother was sick and needed help.

The whole thing is on body cam, but they've only released parts of it.


----------



## applecruncher (Oct 14, 2019)

Whatever happened to knock-knock "Dallas police, anybody home?"


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 15, 2019)

I watched the body cam footage from beginning to end and I couldn't believe how fast he shot. It was instantly. They went from checking the home to shooting her just like that. Really no exchange of words or gunfire. Just bang, almost a surprise it was that quick.

I'm still wondering why they didn't knock on the door and inform the resident that the neighbor asked they be checked on. I will say the front door/storm door was in lousy shape in need of repair-it looked like a bent frame or lose stripping but that does not mean an intruder did that. Why would an intruder leave those lights on and door open during a home invasion.

There are training issues but if a person is really that scared or in fear of their life they should not be a cop. Just like a person who doesn't like people should not be working in customer service. Or a person faints at blood should not be a doctor.  But if their adrenaline and fear reactions are triggered(literally) that easily they should not be a police officer.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

Trade said:


> If that's your criteria for not going you are going to have to add a lot more states to that list.


 
Yup, add New Mexico to that list, also.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

AnnieA said:


> Yep.   Top 10 states. Texas doesn't even make the list. Though I do agree with Trade above that there's at least one gun in most homes in Texas. As for the list, I'm not sure of the accuracy since there's no standardization for gun reporting by state.
> 
> 
> 
> StateGun Ownership2019 Pop.Alaska61.70%735,720Arkansas57.90%3,026,412Idaho56.90%1,790,182West Virginia54.20%1,791,951Wyoming53.80%572,381Montana52.30%1,074,532New Mexico49.90%2,096,034Alabama48.90%4,898,246North Dakota47.90%760,900Hawaii45.10%1,416,589



I'm fairly certain the list isn't accurate as to NM.  Most firearms don't have to be registered here.  Mine are not, and many firearms here have been in families since long before anybody kept records of gun sales so I don't think anybody has any kind of accurate records about firearms in NM.  I'd venture that's probably true of other states as well, especially here in the west.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

applecruncher said:


> Whatever happened to knock-knock "Dallas police, anybody home?"



Yeah, especially since there was no report of anything dangerous going on in the home.  The neighbor just wondered if the lady was OK.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 15, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> Yeah, especially since there was no report of anything dangerous going on in the home.  The neighbor just wondered if the lady was OK.



Saw news reports about him.  He's an emotional mess right now.     And I cannot begin to imagine the trauma the poor nephew will deal with all his life, and what her mother who is currently hospitalized with some sort of chronic issues is going through.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 15, 2019)

> Whatever happened to knock-knock "Dallas police, anybody home?"



Yes, Applecruncher, I wondered the same thing. Why on earth would a cop in this situation start shooting, right off the bat?  He clearly was too emotionally unstable to be on a police force, and armed.  He should not only be fired(!), he should be prosecuted for manslaughter, or murder. 

This kind of tragedy would be awful, no matter who the shooter was. But the way a lot of these cops have been behaving lately, I have to wonder what kind of screening they go through before they are unleashed on the public, who are depending on them for protection.


----------



## Trade (Oct 15, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I'm fairly certain the list isn't accurate as to NM.  Most firearms don't have to be registered here.  Mine are not, and many firearms here have been in families since long before anybody kept records of gun sales so I don't think anybody has any kind of accurate records about firearms in NM.  I'd venture that's probably true of other states as well, especially here in the west.



I'm pretty sure most of those numbers are low. I've known plenty of people that don't want the government to know anything about what guns they may have.


----------



## 911 (Oct 15, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I'm fairly certain the list isn't accurate as to NM.  Most firearms don't have to be registered here.  Mine are not, and many firearms here have been in families since long before anybody kept records of gun sales so I don't think anybody has any kind of accurate records about firearms in NM.  I'd venture that's probably true of other states as well, especially here in the west.


It’s actually against federal law to require guns to be registered on a national registry list,  but some states do require registration. I think only 5 or 6 states require registration. Pennsylvania is not one of them.


----------



## 911 (Oct 15, 2019)

SeaBreeze, normally I respect your posts, but the post that is in this thread, well, WOW! and I’ll leave it at that.

Hiring police has become a bit of a challenge for most all agencies that are looking to hire. During our last recruitment period, we had 68 candidates applying. After all the vetting and “washing out the laundry” (as we call doing background checks) we ended with 17 qualified applicants. Then, when we ended with doing the mental and physical challenges, we were down to 7. Those candidates move onto the Academy as soon as we can continue accepting additional future Cadets. Sometimes, we have to go through this process 3-4 times to reach our “valued number” of 30. 

So, my point is, hiring acceptable people to train can be a tedious process, if done properly. I have known some municipalities to jump ahead because of the immediate need to fill vacancies. This should never be allowed, regardless of the need. Municipalities have options if their need gets to the point of being an emergency, like; requesting aide from other police forces, including their state police, or using sheriff’s deputies, and if really in an emergency, they may ask the state’s Governor for temporary use of the state’s National Guard, which is doubtful that it would ever get to that point, but it has happened.

To be a cop, there are certain requirements that must be met and they have to be inherent. For example; the candidate needs to possess certain qualities like; honesty and integrity, reliable and responsible, loyal and faithful and bravery are all a must. The candidate must be willing to lay down their life, if and when necessary during a time when the situation would warrant. 

When a police officer goes awry of the law(s) that they have sworn to uphold and protect, they must also be willing to accept responsibility for their actions. To do less would bring shame and dishonor on him/her. 

This is what I believe and this is the way that I led my life, both on and off the job. A police officer never punches out. He is always on duty and ready to take action when and if necessary. I never hesitated to step up, even if it meant putting my life on the line. Every time I walked up to a vehicle that I stopped, every time that I went through a door without knowing what or who was on the other side, every call for help that I answered while not knowing if it may have been a trap, I never wavered to do my job. This is who I am and this is what I was sworn to do. 

With the current events that have been happening, I tend to believe that the wrong person posing as a police officer probably shouldn’t have been there. It is also apparent to me that training is lacking. For God’s sakes, what police department would ever teach their officers that when they are doing a wellness check “not” to knock on the door or ring the bell and announce themself? And, if he/she enters the property, why in the hell do you have your weapon drawn? Hand on weapon, OK, but why are you ready to shoot? This is why you have your weapon drawn. You are preparing to shoot. To me, this all leads me to believe that lack of training or responsible training did not exist. 

This is all that I will be commenting on about these shootings.


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 15, 2019)

RE applicant/recruit quality/process

911 around here government jobs including police officer are used for political favors. Meaning unless one gets a politician or high ranking government official for a reference they're not going to be hired. Wether a secretary, trash man/women or police officer it's all about those politician references. If you don't know a politician they unofficially tell  you off the record if you want x job in the town, county or state 'volunteer' for a politician doing what ever then after a year or so ask them to be a reference when you apply for a government job.

I've heard the recruitment trouble stories for several years now.  Last century(oooy) it wasn't uncommon for 200-300 applicants show to take a test for 4-16 openings on the local forces and those test were good for several years. We've gone through periods where government work including law enforcement was one of the higher paying more steady jobs around. It's wasn't until the mid-late 90s local police started getting rid of the I just want a job candidates. I think the tv show COPS actually help create more ambitious applicants/candidates.

The politics with local police hirings got so bad at one point they got caught several times, not just one ignoring civil service test scores. After they rescored them the average applicants test score increased by 10 points or so. They didn't even give combat veterans their points. They hired/approved people with criminal records, didn't meet residency requirements  and trouble passing the physical requirement tests. And this was in a day and age before internet so to get exposed and hit the press it had to be pretty bad/notable.

The qualities you suggest/note are ideal but as with any job one doesn't know how a person will really react until they're on a job on their own. Can they learn/adapt beyond the classroom. I picking up almost a not paranoid but over emphasis on potential danger, not eminent danger with many of these shootings. To me thats' training and culture.


----------



## Don M. (Oct 15, 2019)

As with most of these shootings, there is always a "knee jerk" reaction by many before all the facts are in.  Now, the latest news is that this woman heard a noise, and took her gun out of her purse....according to her nephew....and pointed it at the window the cop was looking through.  The cop was obviously wrong in not announcing his presence, but it looks like there may be bad decisions by both parties.


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 15, 2019)

Here is an article with the raw bodycam footage. Second video down

See Raw:Body Cam....


----------



## rgp (Oct 15, 2019)

Don M. said:


> As with most of these shootings, there is always a "knee jerk" reaction by many before all the facts are in.  Now, the latest news is that this woman heard a noise, and took her gun out of her purse....according to her nephew....and pointed it at the window the cop was looking through.  The cop was obviously wrong in not announcing his presence, but it looks like there may be bad decisions by both parties.



Well, that changes things .......perhaps he [the cop] didn't announce because he thought he was coming on a crime scene??

After watching the [second]? vid, he did issue a command after seeing the gun.....then quickly shot.

Again, how long are they [cops] expected to wait , before they fire.......to protect themselves?


----------



## Trade (Oct 15, 2019)

Don M. said:


> As with most of these shootings, there is always a "knee jerk" reaction by many before all the facts are in.  Now, the latest news is that this woman heard a noise, and took her gun out of her purse....according to her nephew....and pointed it at the window the cop was looking through.  The cop was obviously wrong in not announcing his presence, but it looks like there may be bad decisions by both parties.



So what's wrong with pointing your gun at some shadowy figure prowling your back window at 2 am in the morning?


----------



## Trade (Oct 15, 2019)

rgp said:


> Well, that changes things .......perhaps he [the cop] didn't announce because he thought he was coming on a crime scene??
> 
> After watching the [second]? vid, he did issue a command after seeing the gun.....then quickly shot.
> 
> Again, how long are they [cops] expected to wait , before they fire.......to protect themselves?



If someone is prowling around your back window at 2 am in the morning how long are you expected to wait before you fire?.......... to protect yourself?


----------



## rgp (Oct 15, 2019)

Trade said:


> If someone is prowling around your back window at 2 am in the morning how long are you expected to wait before you fire?.......... to protect yourself?




Both points [yours & mine] are valid......Answer, I do not know.

But, the cop was not "prowling", he was responding to a suspicious call........and technically it is not legal to fire, unless the intruder has crossed the threshold.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 15, 2019)

At times Cops that are primed to shoot people:

I have a point, but it is going to take me a while to get there. Time period 1963...
I was an MP while in the army.
I had a roommate, LeDue,  that I thought a lot of; we were tight, really liked to pull duty with him.

One night, my partner, a rookie, were trying to unload a blind-drunk, mean GI from our vehicle and place him in a cell.
My partner was useless, just useless!
As we were in the station, a frantic call from the guy that was partnering with LeDue, He had forgotten radio procedure, was hollering in the mike, 'Help, their killing us.' (The guy hollering for help was one of those useless individuals you did not want to get into a tight situation with.)
We parked the drunk GI with the desk sergeant and hauled ass.
This was a payday weekend, so the other units were tied up.
It took us around ten minutes to get there; the worthless individual  was on the radio three times screaming for assistance's.
I was very concerned (frightened?) about the safety of my roommate: LaDue.  I knew he was basically by himself with a bunch of 
unpredictable blind-drunks; I was driving as fast as I  could  (with a useless partner) .

I was primed to bring harm to those that had my roommate,  LeDue in Jeopardy.  
We arrived, LeDue's partner was outside! I cussed him on my way inside the Bar. 
Inside, LeDue was pinned against the back wall, his baton was missing,  his clothing had been ripped. (heavy uniform jacket) and he was pretty well marked up.
I subdues one  GI while working my way to the wall where the other GI's still had LeDue pinned.  (Where the hell was my partner
and LeDue's? ) I was more than pissed, I became enraged that LeDue and I were fighting with 6-8 drunk GI's by ourselves.
.  
A GI, I have no idea where he came from turned over two flipper games, destroying them  (the old flipper machines, you put a coin in, steel balls come out and you use the flippers to play the game.)  I was looking for a target: I decided 'I'm going to shoot this s.o.b.)  At the moment, 
I was still working my way to LeDue. I  'subdued' two GI's on the way, handed my baton to LeDue who was 'helpful.' I started after
the butthole who had torn up the flipper machines-he was now engaged in upending tables. 

Finally, finaly,  my partner began helping LeDue. He got free of he wall and began doing what needed to be done.

I got the Gi that had destroyed the flipper machines, chocked him down and began dragging him to the door; I had ever intention
of putting a bullet in his ass. I bumped him down the stairs-A German Police car pulled up on the sidewalk.
Was I relieved-No, they were witness. My intentions were thwarted.

That's it, that's the way it occurred.  Apparently, it was an incident of tunnel visions.  I was pissed at LeDue for getting himself in such a
situation that had scared me (scared for his safety before we arrived) pissed at my useless partner and really pissed at LeDue's partner.
My anger was directed at the drunk GI'.  I had ever intention of putting a round in his butt  (An unarmed, now subdued GI)
Scared-no, enraged, no more than enraged, totally irrational. 

Got out of the army, went to stay with my sister in Detroit for awhile, not sure what I wanted to do, got a dipstick job while I was
planning.  The Detroit Police Dept was offering huge bonuses (huge to me) trying to recruit cops.  I  thought about it, thought about it hard,
decided, ?No, if I were go become a cop, I would shoot somebody,  hopefully justified, but a possibility that it would not be-I'm certainly not rational when I lose my temper.

Does that have anything to do with the Dallas or the  Fort Worth killings-no!  However, cops are citizens of this planet and subject to
all the irrational behaviors our species share.  I have no sympathy for the two cops;  I'm just glad I was rational enough not to become one. 
It appears the female cop in Dallas was primed, given  her history and statements.  
Neither she or the Fort Worth cop had any provocation to kill innocent people: they will rationalize and offer a reason, in time.
I would say both were 'primed' to shoot someone.  My opinion of the Fort Worth is that he was scared (scared without a reason to be scared)


----------



## Trade (Oct 15, 2019)

rgp said:


> Both points [yours & mine] are valid......Answer, I do not know.
> 
> But, the cop was not "prowling", he was responding to a suspicious call........and technically it is not legal to fire, unless the intruder has crossed the threshold.



Your use of the words "suspicious call" in place of "welfare check" in order to make it sound more ominous is duly noted.  

Other than showing up at the correct address the cop did not follow any of the correct procedures for conducting a welfare check. He did not knock on the door nor did he identify himself as a police officer. Instead he snuck around the house and peered into the window like a prowler would. At 2:30 am in the morning. You've heard the old saying "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck?"

So, the victim, a woman alone except for an 8 year old child and sick elderly mother got out her gun and pointed it at the figure outside the window. All this sounds like a perfectly reasonable reaction to me that would meet the approval of anyone who supports the 2nd amendment. You do support the 2nd amendment don't you?


----------



## rgp (Oct 15, 2019)

Trade said:


> Your use of the words "suspicious call" in place of "welfare check" in order to make it sound more ominous is duly noted.
> 
> Other than showing up at the correct address the cop did not follow any of the correct procedures for conducting a welfare check. He did not knock on the door nor did he identify himself as a police officer. Instead he snuck around the house and peered into the window like a prowler would. At 2:30 am in the morning. You've heard the old saying "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck?"
> 
> So, the victim, a woman alone except for an 8 year old child and sick elderly mother got out her gun and pointed it at the figure outside the window. All this sounds like a perfectly reasonable reaction to me that would meet the approval of anyone who supports the 2nd amendment. You do support the 2nd amendment don't you?




 I did not "use" anything....a dark residence @ 2:30 am , with an open door is suspicious in it's nature. If he perhaps thought he was going to encounter a criminal/thug.....why would he announce? He likely "peered" into the window, in an attempt to get a drop on the bad guy.......and he did. It was only later that he discovered the "bad-guy" was neither.

A sheer tragedy, but murder?......not in my opinion.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

rgp said:


> Well, that changes things .......perhaps he [the cop] didn't announce because he thought he was coming on a crime scene??
> 
> After watching the [second]? vid, he did issue a command after seeing the gun.....then quickly shot.
> 
> Again, how long are they [cops] expected to wait , before they fire.......to protect themselves?





WhatInThe said:


> Here is an article with the raw bodycam footage. Second video down
> 
> See Raw:Body Cam....




I can't open the video.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

Don M. said:


> As with most of these shootings, there is always a "knee jerk" reaction by many before all the facts are in.  Now, the latest news is that this woman heard a noise, and took her gun out of her purse....according to her nephew....and pointed it at the window the cop was looking through.  The cop was obviously wrong in not announcing his presence, but it looks like there may be bad decisions by both parties.



Assuming that the woman did point the gun at the window, how is that a bad decision?  She is a young woman alone in a house with a child and some unknown guy is in her backyard looking in windows?  What on earth is wrong with her preparing to defend herself, if necessary?  She didn't shoot at the guy in the backyard -- the guy in the backyard shot through the window at her, in her own house.  She was within her rights.  He wasn't.

If I were alone in the house under similar circumstances, I would probably find my firearm, too.  What's the use of the Second Amendment if you are not allowed to pick up your own weapon???


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> Assuming that the woman did point the gun at the window, how is that a bad decision?  She is a young woman alone in a house with a child and some unknown guy is in her backyard looking in windows?  What on earth is wrong with her preparing to defend herself, if necessary?  She didn't shoot at the guy in the backyard -- the guy in the backyard shot through the window at her, in her own house.  She was within her rights.  He wasn't.
> 
> If I were alone in the house under similar circumstances, I would probably find my firearm, too.  What's the use of the Second Amendment if you are not allowed to pick up your own weapon???



 She didn't know who was in her backyard, and the officer didn't know what he was encountering. That's just a bad combination. 

 "She was within her rights.  He wasn't."

 If he looked through the window, and saw a gun pointed at him....he had every right to shoot. The door was partially open, it was dark [2:30 am] and he sees a gun......again I'll ask, just how long should he wait ? If it had been a bad guy, that hesitation might have gotten _him_ killed.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 16, 2019)

If she was worried about her safety, why would the door be left open?


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> why would he announce?



Because that's the correct procedure.


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

Pepper said:


> If she was worried about her safety, why would the door be left open?



Good question. I don't know. 

What I do know is that here in the south a lot of black people can't afford air conditioning and they do what they can to deal with the heat and humidity. Maybe that was why.


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> If he looked through the window, and saw a gun pointed at him....he had every right to shoot.



So if I'm prowling around in some woman's back yard at 2:30 am and she points a gun at me through the window I have every right to shoot her?


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 16, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I can't open the video.


Apologies. That site was slow for me too.
Try this it was much easier view.


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> So if I'm prowling around in some woman's back yard at 2:30 am and she points a gun at me through the window I have every right to shoot her?



 NO, _you're_ not supposed to be there........ but a cop, responding to a scene does have every right to defend himself. 

And the call is not always what it seems at the outset. 

Not long ago , very near here , a cop [his name was Sonny Kim] was called for a bogus reason....the minute he stepped from his car, he was gunned down. They almost have to be 'on-edge' from the time any call comes out. 

 I wonder why the concerned neighbor didn't call her ? Go knock on her door himself?


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> Because that's the correct procedure.




First....do you _know _procedure?...Second....perhaps the scene looked questionable, once he arrived. Perhaps he doubted the reason for the call?.........we weren't there.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 16, 2019)

I don't know why the open door was so important, or even why it was the neighbor's business in the first place. The door could have been open for any number of reasons. The dog had to "go?"  The air conditioning wasn't working?  She just liked the smell of fresh night air?  Somebody had absent-mindedly left the door open?  Was this really important enough for the neighbor to get the police involved?  Maybe the neighbor was just being a trouble-making busybody?

If he really cared all that much about the woman, why didn't he call her, instead of getting the police involved?

About the cop, I don't know if racism actually came into it or not; maybe he was just dumb and inept.  It was the middle of the night, he may have not even been able to see what race the woman was. These shootings by police could be prompted by any number of reasons. I think he was a trigger-
happy idiot, maybe scared for his own life, and obviously poorly suited to be a police officer.

The trial should be interesting. I wonder if the kid will have to testify.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2019)

911 said:


> SeaBreeze, normally I respect your posts, but the post that is in this thread, well, WOW! and I’ll leave it at that.


That's okay 911, I don't respect or agree with all of your posts either, but I do respect your right to your opinion.


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Sunny said:


> I don't know why the open door was so important, or even why it was the neighbor's business in the first place. The door could have been open for any number of reasons. The dog had to "go?"  The air conditioning wasn't working?  She just liked the smell of fresh night air?  Somebody had absent-mindedly left the door open?  Was this really important enough for the neighbor to get the police involved?  Maybe the neighbor was just being a trouble-making busybody?
> 
> If he really cared all that much about the woman, why didn't he call her, instead of getting the police involved?
> 
> ...




 You have many questions about the officer & the entire situation yet...........you have no trouble making disparaging remarks about him as well.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 16, 2019)

Boy, rgp, you really do love to argue, don't you?  I was actually agreeing with you for once!  And yet, "you have no trouble making disparaging remarks" about me as well.  Here's a novel idea: how about just taking a deep breath, and stop fighting with everybody?

But (sigh), just for the record, my "many questions" were not about the officer. I was pointing out, as you did a few notes earlier, that the concerned neighbor should have just contacted the woman herself, rather than running to the police. The door could have been open for any number of reasons.

But something "stinks" about this whole story, aside from dealing with the cop. Think for a moment; if you saw somebody's door open in the middle of the night, unless they were your own very elderly parents, or a very close friend, would you even give a second thought to it? And would you think of calling the police, rather than contacting the neighbor?  "Hi, sorry to disturb you at this hour, I just noticed that your door is open, is everything all right?"

I live in a hi-rise. Once, I absent-mindedly left my keys hanging in the door. At about 10 PM. a neighbor knocked on the door to tell me about it. I was very grateful.  Nobody called building security or the police!  If I saw somebody else's keys hanging in their door, and I knocked and no one answered, or if it really was the middle of the night, I'd probably take the keys for safe-keeping, and slip a note under their door. (Actually, I did that once.)

I have no "questions" about the cop being an inept idiot. Good grief, what other conclusion could we sanely come to?  He responds to a call and starts meaninglessly firing through a window at a woman standing in her own home?  Uh, let's see, there's gotta be a good reason.... I'm sure his lawyer is trying very hard to come up with one right now...


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Boy, rgp, you really do love to argue, don't you?  I was actually agreeing with you for once!  And yet, "you have no trouble making disparaging remarks" about me as well.  Here's a novel idea: how about just taking a deep breath, and stop fighting with everybody?
> 
> But (sigh), just for the record, my "many questions" were not about the officer. I was pointing out, as you did a few notes earlier, that the concerned neighbor should have just contacted the woman herself, rather than running to the police. The door could have been open for any number of reasons.
> 
> ...




  You said......

"About the cop, I don't know if racism actually came into it or not; maybe he was just dumb and inept. It was the middle of the night, he may have not even been able to see what race the woman was. These shootings by police could be prompted by any number of reasons. I think he was a trigger-
happy idiot, maybe scared for his own life, and obviously poorly suited to be a police officer."

How is that, remarking about the neighbor ? How is that not disparaging about the officer.

I said nothing disparaging about you, just pointed out what you said......perhaps i should have ended with a question mark......

You went on to say........"I have no "questions" about the cop being an inept idiot. "

How do you know he was inept ? Were you there ? are you a trained police officer?

I am not..."fighting with everybody?" I am only defending my opinion.......just like you.


----------



## win231 (Oct 16, 2019)

WhatInThe said:


> Apologies. That site was slow for me too.
> Try this it was much easier view.


In the video and the still frames, the gun is not in anyone's hand.  (assuming the still frames are genuine).
IMO, the police are claiming she had a gun in her hand & was pointing it at the window to justify shooting her.


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> NO, _you're_ not supposed to be there........



Neither was the cop. 

He wasn't following procedure.


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 16, 2019)

Just a figure at best. My guess is since victim didn't react to the cops demands right away he assumed she was a threat. Even after the video is enhanced the officer only had about 2 seconds to focus, think what the object was and what the victim was doing.  He over/hyper reacted to a situation I don't think he had time to ascertain. 

But the thing that stunned me about the whole scenario/video is yes he/they didn't identify themselves and were the ones going around the property like a prowler. Also as an officer I would've rather had any potential threat approach me in light which they had until they started going around the side.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 16, 2019)

If the cop in question was so nervous and felt danger about the situation with the door being ajar (and that was why he was called to the scene), then why didn't he call for backup so that one of them could  announce themselves making a welfare check. Cops are trained to know how to protect themselves for a possible confrontation with someone inside.  A cowardly cop (as he seemed to be) is a very dangerous cop.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 16, 2019)

I think the door was ajar by mistake, not to cool the house.  Probably the kid.  Doesn't make sense the woman packs for protection & leaves herself vulnerable.  IF ONLY the neighbor had been able to contact them to see if everyone ok w/out calling cops


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> Neither was the cop.
> 
> He wasn't following procedure.




 Again, do you _know _their procedure? He was called/sent to the scene.


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

Olivia said:


> If the cop in question was so nervous and felt danger about the situation with the door being ajar (and that was why he was called to the scene), then why didn't he call for backup so that one of them could  announce themselves making a welfare check. Cops are trained to know how to protect themselves for a possible confrontation with someone inside.  A cowardly cop (as he seemed to be) is a very dangerous cop.




 Cowardly?.....


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

This has nothing to do with training. You don't train people to be decent human beings.

This is a problem with Police culture.

They have virtually no accountability to the public.

They have been able to flaunt the law without consequence because any complaint by the public against the police gets investgatd by the police. A fox watching the chicken coop scenario.

What is needed is for each jurisdiction to have a civilian board made up of members of that community that are elected by the community that investigates complaints against the police. The citizens can take their complaints there. And that board needs to have the power to take disciplinary action including firing of the officer if the deem it warranted.

In addition the make up of the police force should be representative of the community they serve. If the community is 50% black, then 50% of the force should be black. No exceptions, no excuses.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> Cowardly?.....


I agree with Olivia.  Way too jumpy.

 And I admittedly have no clue about police procedure, but he could've rung the front doorbell or banged on the frame and yelled "Police!"  and then taken cover. Odds are, a burglar would run the other way anyhow. If prowling furtively around someone's property looking like a bad guy is proper procedure,  then that's a stupid procedure.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> She didn't know who was in her backyard, and the officer didn't know what he was encountering. That's just a bad combination.
> 
> "She was within her rights.  He wasn't."
> 
> If he looked through the window, and saw a gun pointed at him....he had every right to shoot. The door was partially open, it was dark [2:30 am] and he sees a gun......again I'll ask, just how long should he wait ? If it had been a bad guy, that hesitation might have gotten _him_ killed.



She had no way of knowing he was a police officer, since he didn't announce, and HE had no reasonable right to assume that something awful was going on in the house.  The caller didn't say he had heard anything suspicious, he just wondered why her door was open  at that hour.

How long should he wait?  According to the video, he hadn't even finished saying hands up or whatever it was before he took a shot.  And it is undisputed that he did not announce he was a police officer.

God help us all if it is OK for a police officer to just show up in your backyard for a reason  unknown to you and shoot you if you happen to move around in your own house.


----------



## terry123 (Oct 16, 2019)

Why didn't he use a taser?  My brother was a cop in Miami for 25 years and never shot anyone without following procedure.  This cop should be charged with murder and her family should sue the police for everything possible.  Time for cops to be held accountable for their actions!  My opinion only!


----------



## Gary O' (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> What is needed is for each jurisdiction to have a civilian board made up of members of that community that are elected by the community that investigates complaints against the police. The citizens can take their complaints there. And that board needs to have the power to take disciplinary action including firing of the officer if the deem it warranted.


Man, that's pretty sound thinking.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 16, 2019)

Naw, civilians know nothing about stresses, fears, emotional issues concerning cops .
A review board made up of  cops from a different state?  Retired cops-naw, that wouldn't work. 
A review board, leaning that way, but cops will fight to the last bullet!
You guys come with just who the review board consist of...


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 17, 2019)

I was wondering how long most spend training for a police position. It was usually about 19 weeks. But what freaked me out was -guess the number of "Police Academies"- 6,200. You have to be ......... kidding me. You mean some little township, which can't afford a snow plow, can have a "police academy"? Good grief.  Plus, you give the power of life and death  to someone, who has a whole 19 weeks of training from Hooterville Police Academy? ( These are US numbers.)


----------



## Gary O' (Oct 17, 2019)

Trade said:


> He wasn't following procedure


Along those lines, I was wondering, *shouldn't he have been with a partner, or have back up?*
Forgive my ignorance.
I know little of police procedure.
Now, a thread on incarceration, heh, there ain't enough bauds in this forum.


----------



## Ruthanne (Oct 17, 2019)

This makes no sense.  I can't understand how this happened--lacking in training definitely!  To say the very least...


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

"What is needed is for each jurisdiction to have a civilian board made up of members of that community that are elected by the community that investigates complaints against the police. The citizens can take their complaints there. And that board needs to have the power to take disciplinary action including firing of the officer if the deem it warranted. "

 Wrong.......every jurisdiction has a chief.....that's his job.

 If a person has never been on the street as an officer, there is no way in hell they can begin to understand the stresses come with the job. And have absolutely no understanding of how [they] would deal with them. So how in the world could they have any modicum of understanding how someone else might?


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Gary O' said:


> Along those lines, I was wondering, *shouldn't he have been with a partner, or have back up?*
> Forgive my ignorance.
> I know little of police procedure.
> Now, a thread on incarceration, heh, there ain't enough bauds in this forum.




In many situations the _partner_ issue is a matter of money...*payroll. *The tax payers do not want to pay for it [higher tax] And other city agencies hold steadfast to their budget needs, fighting any & every $$ change suggested for the city budget.

Not to sound like a know-it-all....because I am not,...but.....unless you have worked civil-service, you have no idea how cutthroat the budget angling can be.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 17, 2019)

> How do you know he was inept ? Were you there ? are you a trained police officer?
> 
> I am not..."fighting with everybody?" I am only defending my opinion.......just like you.



"You keep arguing with everybody!"
"I DO NOT!"


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Sunny said:


> "You keep arguing with everybody!"
> "I DO NOT!"




   I am asking a question...as a part of discussing/debating the topic & defending my point/opinion....which I stand by. When others bring up a point, that I do not agree with, I counter with my own point.

I am not going to say, oh forgive me, you're right , I'm wrong. Unless I see it in their point.

    What ? Am I just supposed to give into you? That'll never happen.


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> Wrong.......every jurisdiction has a chief.....that's his job.
> 
> If a person has never been on the street as an officer, there is no way in hell they can begin to understand the stresses come with the job. And have absolutely no understanding of how [they] would deal with them. So how in the world could they have any modicum of understanding how someone else might?



I have an understanding of the crap they get away with under the current system. 

When I lived in Winter Haven Florida my daughter had black friends. So one night she was giving one of them a ride home and she gets stopped by the cops and they spent a half an hour going through her car searching it becuase the damned racist cops couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that a while kid would be in a black neighborhood at night for any reason other than  to buy drugs. Another time she got stopped and questioned and the cop wrote up a ticket for her tag light being out.n I guess that was to cover his ass for making the stop. So she told me about it and I said "OK, I'll fix it" So I went to the auto parts place and got a two bulb pack because that's the only way they sell them. I figured "OK, I'll keep the other one as a spare". But as it turned out I ended up with two spare bulbs because when I went to fix the tag light there was nothing wrong with it. 

I tried to convince her to file a complaint against the cop but she was afraid to.  Looking back on it she was probably right. Complaining would have just put a target on her back for the cops to be looking for her. When they saw her car around town they could pull that favorite cop trick of following her around until they made her so nervous she makes a mistake. Like that cop in Texas did to Sandra Bland. Followed her around until she got so nervous she changed lanes without signaling. "Stop the presses! Crime of the century! You're busted!" 

So she mouthed off to him. Well it's pretty hard not to when you are dealing with a butthole like that. So she ends up in jail for "resisting". And then later on commits "suicide"  while she's locked up. Yeah, I buy that alright. 

After my daughter got harassed the second time I started noticing when the cops had someone pulled over. And it seemed to me like about 9 times out of 10 it was a black person. An yet the population is only about 25% black.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Trade said:


> I have an understanding of the crap they get away with under the current system.
> 
> When I lived in Winter Haven Florida my daughter had black friends. So one night she was giving one of them a ride home and she gets stopped by the cops and they spent a half an hour going through her car searching it becuase the damned racist cops couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that a while kid would be in a black neighborhood at night for any reason other than  to buy drugs. Another time she got stopped and questioned and the cop wrote up a ticket for her tag light being out.n I guess that was to cover his ass for making the stop. So she told me about it and I said "OK, I'll fix it" So I went to the auto parts place and got a two bulb pack because that's the only way they sell them. I figured "OK, I'll keep the other one as a spare". But as it turned out I ended up with two spare bulbs because when I went to fix the tag light there was nothing wrong with it.
> 
> ...




 Are they [police] always perfect ? Never said they are. But, some things must be seen from their side. They deal, everyday with the dregs of society , they are mistrusted by many, and a large part of these dregs are ready , willing, and able to shoot them at the drop of a hat. They [police] are trying their best to preserve our laws, and in some cases protect _us_ from the bad guys.

Is it a job you would want/take? That is a potential big-mistake maker hanging on your hip. If you had to go to it....would YOU always be 100% ?


BTW, the latest number on black population is just over 12%


----------



## 911 (Oct 17, 2019)

terry123 said:


> Why didn't he use a taser?  My brother was a cop in Miami for 25 years and never shot anyone without following procedure.  This cop should be charged with murder and her family should sue the police for everything possible.  Time for cops to be held accountable for their actions!  My opinion only!


A Taser that shoots though glass? Interesting.


----------



## win231 (Oct 17, 2019)

Ruthanne said:


> This makes no sense.  I can't understand how this happened--lacking in training definitely!  To say the very least...


Or, perhaps the officer decided she was committing a crime:  "Living while black."


----------



## 911 (Oct 17, 2019)

Trade said:


> I have an understanding of the crap they get away with under the current system.
> 
> When I lived in Winter Haven Florida my daughter had black friends. So one night she was giving one of them a ride home and she gets stopped by the cops and they spent a half an hour going through her car searching it becuase the damned racist cops couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that a while kid would be in a black neighborhood at night for any reason other than  to buy drugs. Another time she got stopped and questioned and the cop wrote up a ticket for her tag light being out.n I guess that was to cover his ass for making the stop. So she told me about it and I said "OK, I'll fix it" So I went to the auto parts place and got a two bulb pack because that's the only way they sell them. I figured "OK, I'll keep the other one as a spare". But as it turned out I ended up with two spare bulbs because when I went to fix the tag light there was nothing wrong with it.
> 
> ...


I don’t understand why the police searched her car. Did she give her consent? Did the police give a reason for the stop? If so, what was it?


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

911 said:


> I don’t understand why the police searched her car. Did she give her consent? Did the police give a reason for the stop? If so, what was it?


911.  You are a very smart man, but c'mon, be serious.  You know stops & searches occur without giving reasons.  Sometimes.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

win231 said:


> Or, perhaps the officer decided she was committing a crime:  "Living while black."




 Not arguing, asking.....

 Do you really think the "hate-factor" is such that a person [cop or not] would shoot another person just because they can ?

That's a pretty strong accusation.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> 911.  You are a very smart man, but c'mon, be serious.  You know stops & searches occur without giving reasons.  Sometimes.



 And IMO most of those are looking for drugs, an aspect of the failed "war on drugs". Something I think we as a society need to take another serious look at.


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

911 said:


> I don’t understand why the police searched her car. Did she give her consent? Did the police give a reason for the stop? If so, what was it?



What are you implying about my daughter? That she was doing something suspicious that gave them probable cause to search her vehicle? 
I don't buy that for a second. In my opinion it was a clear cut case of profiling. "White kid driving in a black neighborhood with black kids in car with her. Must be up to something bad"


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> Is it a job you would want/take?



Hell no!

My oldest son interviewed for a couple of cop jobs right after he got out of college. He got one call back, I'm not sure what for. Maybe a second interview? But by that time he had already signed up with the Army for their student loan repayment plan. So he became a soldier instead. I'm glad that he did too. Now I can be proud of him.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 17, 2019)

win231 said:


> "Living while black.
> That'll make your brain hurt.


----------



## Gemma (Oct 17, 2019)

After my husband and I spoke with a few retired PA State troopers in our area last week @911, they tell us it's a different breed of officers out there now.  That's why they took their retired recently, because they are a scary breed of new cops, they say, lacking common sense and how to handle themselves in a situation, which prompted their retirement.  

The academy is cranking out graduating cadets at a faster pace than when you were a trooper.  99 in October 2018, another 103 in May of 2019 and another 98 in September of 2019.  Far cry from the 7 back in your day.


----------



## 911 (Oct 17, 2019)

Now, calm


Trade said:


> What are you implying about my daughter? That she was doing something suspicious that gave them probable cause to search her vehicle?
> I don't buy that for a second. In my opinion it was a clear cut case of profiling. "White kid driving in a black neighborhood with black kids in car with her. Must be up to something bad"


 Now, calm down. I wasn’t implying anything. The reason that I asked why did they stop her is because the Supreme Court has ruled that police may no longer stop vehicles w/o cause. This isn’t the 60’s or 70’s. The police, unless they have probable cause, are also not permitted to search w/o a warrant or the driver’s permission. You can refuse to allow for a search. You know that, right? 

If they do, they have violated her constitutional rights. But, I really needed to know the entire story. When I asked why they stopped her, I thought maybe she had a light out, or maybe made a bad move, like swerve or cross the center line.

Maybe you should consider not jumping to conclusions. Maybe a little paranoid?


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

How many people do you suppose are unaware of their rights?


----------



## 911 (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> 911.  You are a very smart man, but c'mon, be serious.  You know stops & searches occur without giving reasons.  Sometimes.


Not so. Like I told Trade, this is not the 60’s or 70’s. Police must have probable cause to stop or search. You have the right to refuse to a search, unless they have detected an “odor” of alcohol or “burnt rope.” And, even if you are stopped for a light out, that is not probable cause for a search. Of course, if they have a warrant, you should comply.


----------



## 911 (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> How many people do you suppose are unaware of their rights?


Everyone should be. There have been enough illegal stops made, along with searches w/o cause or warrant. I thought this was all common knowledge. And, never be taken in if a cop tells you that he has a standing warrant. There is no such thing. Tell the officer that you want to see it. You have a right to a copy of the warrant. 

States that use Deputies to patrol their highways are finding out that this may be a mistake. Too many Deputies are given a “handbook” to study, take a test and if they pass, they may patrol the highways. Really?


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> How many people do you suppose are unaware of their rights?



A lot. And a lot more are too intimidated to assert those rights when confront by a big burly cop. I have no doubt my daughter was scared.


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

911 said:


> When I asked why they stopped her, I thought maybe she had a light out,



The other time she was stopped they did ticket her for a tag light being out. But like I said in my other post, by the time I went to fix it, it had miraculously fixed itself.

Ot maybe one of those Angels from that other thread fixed it.


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

911 said:


> Maybe you should consider not jumping to conclusions. Maybe a little paranoid?


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Trade said:


> A lot. And a lot more are too intimidated to assert those rights when confront by a big burly cop. I have no doubt my daughter was scared.




 Many cops today are anything but "big & burly" We have one here locally that likely had to cut the barrel of his gun off.....he's so damn short  .


----------



## jerry old (Oct 17, 2019)

911:
He's been there. heed his comments.
State Trappers are a different breed of cat than 'Joe Cop..'  
What 'Joe Cop' does is not necessarily what a trooper would do.
However, their beat is the highways and byways and sometimes the bergs that do not have a police dept, as in the town in my late teens...
Don't screw around with a trooper.
Rarely, will you find them responding to calls in urban neighborhoods, unless the local cops request assistance.


----------



## win231 (Oct 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> Not arguing, asking.....
> 
> Do you really think the "hate-factor" is such that a person [cop or not] would shoot another person just because they can ?
> 
> That's a pretty strong accusation.


Depends on how much hate is involved.  Racism & hate + power & authority + a whole police department protecting & supporting + the code of silence = "I love this job 'cuz I can do anything I want."  Yes, I've overheard police officers chatting about it.


----------



## hollydolly (Oct 17, 2019)




----------



## win231 (Oct 17, 2019)

Here's yet another example:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fo...ning-exercise/ar-AAIVYLY?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=iehp
During such training exercises, the officer's gun is supposed to have a yellow plastic barrel installed with a solid chamber so a live round CANNOT be chambered.  Or, there are plastic model guns for safe training.  Instead, this moron officer uses his regular gun & doesn't even check it, resulting in the death of an innocent person.  And he doesn't get one minute of jail time or even a conviction for negligent homicide.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 18, 2019)

win231 said:


> In the video and the still frames, the gun is not in anyone's hand.  (assuming the still frames are genuine).
> IMO, the police are claiming she had a gun in her hand & was pointing it at the window to justify shooting her.




I think the video clearly demonstrates that the cop gave her no time at all to obey the "hands up" before he fired, whether she had a gun in her hand or not, which she had every right to do in her own home.  She had no way of knowing whether the guy in her yard was a cop or an axe murderer, since he never announced he was police.  No matter how you slice it, the cop was completely at fault and the woman was the innocent victim.


----------



## 911 (Oct 18, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> 911:
> He's been there. heed his comments.
> State Trappers are a different breed of cat than 'Joe Cop..'
> What 'Joe Cop' does is not necessarily what a trooper would do.
> ...


You make a good point.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 18, 2019)

911, about the probable cause issue, I imagine that 99% of the public has no idea of what constitutes legitimate probable cause. You'd have to be a lawyer, or a law enforcement professional, and I wonder how many of even those groups have a clear list in their heads. I wonder if such a list is available to the general public.


----------



## 911 (Oct 18, 2019)

Trade said:


> The other time she was stopped they did ticket her for a tag light being out. But like I said in my other post, by the time I went to fix it, it had miraculously fixed itself.
> 
> Ot maybe one of those Angels from that other thread fixed it.


Here in Pennsylvania, the smallest fine, which would be for a light out, after all the add-on’s, the total would be $104.00. If I did a stop for a light out and was treated respectfully, I would tell the driver to get it fixed ASAP and “Have a nice day (evening).” Otherwise, if the driver tried to juice me (police talk for “get under my skin”) I would simply go back to my car and sit for 10 minutes. Then, approach the driver and tell him, “He’s good to go.” I was never ordered to ticket for a light out. That’s a lot of money to pay out of pocket for a light that burned out.


----------



## rgp (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> 911, about the probable cause issue, I imagine that 99% of the public has no idea of what constitutes legitimate probable cause. You'd have to be a lawyer, or a law enforcement professional, and I wonder how many of even those groups have a clear list in their heads. I wonder if such a list is available to the general public.




 I hate "spreading" what I do not "know" for sure but........

  I have heard some whispers/rumors that some modern-day coppers, when seeing white hair, obvious seniors driving, are looking for cause. This is due to the belief, experience that these drivers might well have some "interesting" medications on their person/in their vehicle ???

I surely hope *if* true ?, that it is not widespread. The retired guys that i know, scoff it big-time. And say that they [back in the day] would have never done this.


----------



## 911 (Oct 18, 2019)

Sunny said:


> 911, about the probable cause issue, I imagine that 99% of the public has no idea of what constitutes legitimate probable cause. You'd have to be a lawyer, or a law enforcement professional, and I wonder how many of even those groups have a clear list in their heads. I wonder if such a list is available to the general public.


I have no idea, but I would imagine that somewhere on the Internet, a lawyer may have posted such a list.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 18, 2019)

The Post on this thread run the gauntlet, none are bad or good, there merely opinions.
It is impossible to imagine a jury made up of the opinions expressed- they would not be able to reach a consensus, each group might even do harm to the dissenters.

We live in the USA, we can state anything that whirls through our mind without being carried off by the thought police-Thank God!

Large PD Departments are aware there are ‘bad apples,’ within their mist, but their also required to put so many ‘bodies’ on the street. Given time the ‘bad apples’ will be eased out or into a desk job where they do not deal with the public-BUT few large PD Departments have that luxury.
You can’t fire a cop because his *superiors think ‘he/she is dangerous, inadequate, not suited for the job you must show cause.*

The new hire brings to his/her new job all the opinions they had before becoming a police officer; no academy will change those opinions. It takes a while for these opinions to come to the attention of others.

I have no solution, I have an opinion, locked away-no amount of yammering is going to change my opinion; if I set throughout every day of the trial I would know whether my opinion was correct or incorrect-that is not possible.
Now, I will have to wait for a year, maybe longer to hear what the TV tell me, intermingled with commercials of toilet paper and other slick lies.


----------



## 911 (Oct 18, 2019)

rgp said:


> I hate "spreading" what I do not "know" for sure but........
> 
> I have heard some whispers/rumors that some modern-day coppers, when seeing white hair, obvious seniors driving, are looking for cause. This is due to the belief, experience that these drivers might well have some "interesting" medications on their person/in their vehicle ???
> 
> I surely hope *if* true ?, that it is not widespread. The retired guys that i know, scoff it big-time. And say that they [back in the day] would have never done this.


I can only speak for my guys. We never “head-hunted” on anyone or group of people. Sure, we held checkpoints for DUI, and even a few other situations when looking for a suspect, but outside of those few instances, nothing that I am aware.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 18, 2019)

I've never heard anyone suggest that police target seniors where I live.  Here, they have plenty of real stuff to worry about and keep them busy, like road rage, gangs, vandals and drug dealers and assorted other bad behavior, so they don't worry much about little old ladies chugging to the grocery store minding their own business.


----------



## Trade (Oct 19, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I've never heard anyone suggest that police target seniors where I live.  Here, they have plenty of real stuff to worry about and keep them busy, like road rage, gangs, vandals and drug dealers and assorted other bad behavior, so they don't worry much about little old ladies chugging to the grocery store minding their own business.



I think seniors, especially white seniors don't have anything to worry about unless they are doing something egregious. On the other hand black people, especially young black males are routinely profiled by the police. Cops use "selective enforcement" on them. By that I mean if you are an old white dude like me, the chances of being stopped and ticketed for a burned out tag light bulb are pretty slim. But for a young black guy the percentage is off the chart. That's the way cops get away with profiling and still cover their asses.


----------



## 911 (Oct 19, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I've never heard anyone suggest that police target seniors where I live.  Here, they have plenty of real stuff to worry about and keep them busy, like road rage, gangs, vandals and drug dealers and assorted other bad behavior, so they don't worry much about little old ladies chugging to the grocery store minding their own business.


Butterfly, did you work in a criminal attorney’s office? Were there multiple attorney’s? If they were criminal attorneys, did they ever represent any high profile or serial killers? Just curious. I studied major crimes and even went back to college after I became an Investigator to study constitutional law. (I did not attain any further degree other than my A.D.) Later in my career, I was able to sit in on a podcast that Alan Dershowitz moderated (2006). He did a really good job with explaining some parts of the Constitution, but he was just so very political.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 19, 2019)

Most people have no idea about search and seizure laws. I don't. So , police can do what they want. I think anybody, who has followed just a couple of  these police shooting incidents, knows the police  defense drill. "He was a big, scary Black  man, with what I saw as a weapon in his hand and I was in fear of my life." And, then there's the mysterious body-cam malfunction just as the officer shoots. I don't think we are going to have any change in police actions until we penetrate through that "blue wall".
I was a Certified Psychiatric Nurse. I was watching a police video of the cops encountering someone, who obviously was having some psychotic episode. The cops were yelling at this guy to get on his stomach. Of course, he's not doing it; but it's not that he was consciously ignoring them-he was out of it.  The cops are yelling all kinds of orders and getting upset that he's not do what they wanted.  They are trying to make this guy comply to some rehearsed method of taking down a "with it" arrestee, so as to protect themselves from harm. This guy is just way too out of it to follow instructions. So after a long time, they taser him and jump on him & cuff him. What stuck out to me was their lack of training in dealing with somebody in a psychotic state. They are yelling at him, giving him  complicated orders, and he isn't aware they're in the room. Given my years of experience, they should have tasered him,  jumped on him, and cuffed him, as soon as they determined he wasn't responsive to their presence. Really, what else are they going to do?  It speaks to the poor training those police got. They should have been able to judge his mental status and effectively deal with it.  You should know the difference in someone, who is actively halucinating, and someone who is conciously not obeying orders, .During this video, all I could think of was, please, don't have anything in this guys hands. Mentally ill account for 35% of all arrests in the US.


----------



## Trade (Oct 19, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Most people have no idea about search and seizure laws. I don't. So , police can do what they want. I think anybody, who has followed just a couple of  these police shooting incidents, knows the police  defense drill. "He was a big, scary Black  man, with what I saw as a weapon in his hand and I was in fear of my life." And, then there's the mysterious body-cam malfunction just as the officer shoots. I don't think we are going to have any change in police actions until we penetrate through that "blue wall".
> I was a Certified Psychiatric Nurse. I was watching a police video of the cops encountering someone, who obviously was having some psychotic episode. The cops were yelling at this guy to get on his stomach. Of course, he's not doing it; but it's not that he was consciously ignoring them-he was out of it.  The cops are yelling all kinds of orders and getting upset that he's not do what they wanted.  They are trying to make this guy comply to some rehearsed method of taking down a "with it" arrestee, so as to protect themselves from harm. This guy is just way too out of it to follow instructions. So after a long time, they taser him and jump on him & cuff him. What stuck out to me was their lack of training in dealing with somebody in a psychotic state. They are yelling at him, giving him  complicated orders, and he isn't aware they're in the room. Given my years of experience, they should have tasered him,  jumped on him, and cuffed him, as soon as they determined he wasn't responsive to their presence. Really, what else are they going to do?  It speaks to the poor training those police got. They should have been able to judge his mental status and effectively deal with it.  You should know the difference in someone, who is actively halucinating, and someone who is conciously not obeying orders, .During this video, all I could think of was, please, don't have anything in this guys hands. Mentally ill account for 35% of all arrests in the US.



This is a case that really enrages me ebery time I think about it. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cop-acquitted-in-beanbag-gun-death-of-95-year-old-vet/


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 19, 2019)

I'm not sure, do the London "Bobbies" wear guns now, as a routine? I know years ago they didn't. If I knew a cop didn't have a gun, I'd still run like hell, but I don't think run out of luck. I don't think it would end up as a him or me thing. It's amazing how just taking one gun out of the picture deescalates the situation.


----------



## ohioboy (Mar 2, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Most people have no idea about search and seizure laws. I don't. So , police can do what they want.



Trust me, it can be complicated for a layman (which I am). Here is a brief legal history.

The main uniformity is the 4th Amendment, incorporated through the 14th AM, to apply to the States in 1949 in Wolf v. Colorado. The Exclusionary Rule was made applicable to the states in 1961 in Mapp v. Ohio.

One of the most important seminal 4th AM cases was Terry v. Ohio 1968. When you hear the phrase "Terry Stop" if falls under that decisional law case. These were a few of the cases I learned about during my College Criminal law courses. Traffic stops these days are generally referred to as Terry stops.

States are permitted pursuant to their own Constitution's S&S provisions to not permit what the 4th AM permits (less stringent standards).

Another seminal case was Atwater v. Texas, in which USSC ruled it does not offend the 4th AM to effect a full custodial arrest for an offense punishable by a FINE only. Now, in Ohio, our SC has ruled this is not permissible under our Constitutions S&S clause, Article 1 sec. 14, with a few exceptions, one being the offender refuses to sign the Citation. In Ohio that non jailable offense is referred to as a Minor Misdemeanor.

A few facts:

An officer acing under the 4thAM, can order a passenger out of the car without probable cause (Pennsylvania v. Mimms) and the passenger (Maryland v. Wilson).

You see on TV where the police say they are taking someone in for questioning/investigative detention but they are not under arrest! If the person detained is taken in against their will, as an actual undisputed fact, that IS an arrest and must be based on Probable Cause, not just Reasonable Suspicion under Terry.

If an officer issues you a citation, and all is normal, they can NOT search your car as "Incident to Citation" as opposed to "Incident to Arrest".

There was a case in Ohio were a citation victim moved to have his charge dismissed, due to the fact the Officer was not wearing his Hat when he issued it. He claimed it was not a "Distinctive Uniform" under the law. The courts ruled such a slight variance was not enough to uphold his dismissal request.


Yes, most don't know the enormous volumes of  settled law/case law, that is why they comply threatened with arrest if they don't. If they are not sure if the order is UNconstitutional, they risk a valid arrest. But some like these so called "Sovereign Citizen's" think under the law they don't even need a license to drive. One video on youtube, this clown spoofs on and on about it and, among other cites, cites an 1843 (I think) law dictionary definition of "Carriage" and applies it to modern day motor vehicles to claim no license is needed to drive. That gives you an idea of the whackies out there.


----------



## hollydolly (Mar 2, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm not sure, do the London "Bobbies" wear guns now, as a routine? I know years ago they didn't. If I knew a cop didn't have a gun, I'd still run like hell, but I don't think run out of luck. I don't think it would end up as a him or me thing. It's amazing how just taking one gun out of the picture deescalates the situation.


No they don't....


----------

