# Tylenol shortage = Pain med shortage



## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2022)

There's a shortage of Tylenol in the US. I'm assuming that's because it's being horded in China like TP was horded everywhere else during the pandemic. Tylenol is produced in the US but most of the ingredients are sourced from China.

So I'm having a hellova time getting my Norco Rx filled. It's bad enough I'll be having some horrible back pain but Norco also helps with my restless knee syndrome and extremely painful, crippling leg and foot cramps.

I asked my doctor to prescribe something else, temporarily, and meantime my pharmacist will see if another pharmacy has enough Norco on hand to fill my Rx.

hm. On the positive side, maybe I'll get a 2-ee this month.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 22, 2022)

Children’s Tylenol in short supply - here’s what parents can do


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## BC Flash (Dec 22, 2022)

MurrMurr:   re leg cramps (or other cramps)   My husband use wake up at 3 am (?) with leg cramps.   He started taking a daily calcium tablet as well as a glass of milk (in hot chocolate).    He was surprised that the cramps stopped.   Calcium tablets are available at the pharmacies and Costco.


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## hearlady (Dec 22, 2022)

I'm bringing my daughter what kids Tylenol I have on hand. She told me about this a couple weeks ago. She's in Georgia.


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## Chet (Dec 22, 2022)

There are other meds with the same active ingredient as Tylenol and they are cheaper.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2022)

BC Flash said:


> MurrMurr:   re leg cramps (or other cramps)   My husband use wake up at 3 am (?) with leg cramps.   He started taking a daily calcium tablet as well as a glass of milk (in hot chocolate).    He was surprised that the cramps stopped.   Calcium tablets are available at the pharmacies and Costco.


These cramps are caused by a lower lumbar deformity, so it's neurological. 

I actually had too much calcium in my blood last blood test, so I stopped taking a supplement.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2022)

Chet said:


> There are other meds with the same active ingredient as Tylenol and they are cheaper.


I don't need the Tylenol that's in my medication, I need the Hydrocodone part. I take Norco, which is a mix of Hydrocodone and Tylenol.


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## Blessed (Dec 22, 2022)

I am just happy to know you have a doctor that understands your pain.  Most doctors now do not want to give pain medication even if it makes the patient suffer. With regulations we have now doctors are afraid to give the proper care to manage chronic conditions that they know are painful.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2022)

Blessed said:


> I am just happy to know you have a doctor that understands your pain.  Most doctors now do not want to give pain medication even if it makes the patient suffer. With regulations we have now doctors are afraid to give the proper care to manage chronic conditions that they know are painful.


Unfortunately, I think she left her office before she got my message. The pharmacist said she hasn't called him back, either. He's going to call around and see who has some Norco on hand, so I probly won't get it until tomorrow afternoon. But I'll call my doc again in the morning. Maybe she'll just prescribe Vicodin or low dose morphine for now....until this shortage ends.


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## Blessed (Dec 22, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Unfortunately, I think she left her office before she got my message. The pharmacist said she hasn't called him back, either. He's going to call around and see who has some Norco on hand, so I probly won't get it until tomorrow afternoon. But I'll call my doc again in the morning. Maybe she'll just prescribe Vicodin or low dose morphine for now....until this shortage ends.



Are you totally out? You have nothing for pain?  I hope the pharmacist can at least find some to get you throught weekend.  

I just realized I have run out of my nausea meds, I will be calling tomorrw to have the doc call in a new script.  I just hope she is in the office.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 22, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Are you totally out? You have nothing for pain?  I hope the pharmacist can at least find some to get you throught weekend.
> 
> I just realized I have run out of my nausea meds, I will be calling tomorrw to have the doc call in a new script.  I just hope she is in the office.


I'm totally out and my last dose was this morning. I've been pretty inactive this evening, and I'll take some muscle relaxers tonight. I'm hoping that will prevent (or minimize) restless knee action and the leg-foot cramps.

Honestly, I'm not optimistic....been here before.


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## Jules (Dec 22, 2022)

There’s been a shortage of children’s pain meds for many months here.  Then it happened for adults.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

Jules said:


> There’s been a shortage of children’s pain meds for many months here.  Then it happened for adults.


I guess it happened simultaneously here. I know people with young kids and no one's mentioned a shortage of children's Tylenol. But, none of their kids have been sick, so maybe I was just unaware.

No Norco due to no Tylenol was a surprise. I'm taking Ibuprophen (lots) and Baclofen. So far I'm doing ok with that as long as I basically space-out in front of the TV screen.


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## Devi (Dec 23, 2022)

Just as an aside, Amazon has Tylenol, Advil and Acetaminophen.


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## Becky1951 (Dec 23, 2022)

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=tylenol+...sprefix=tyl,aps,713&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_3


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## charry (Dec 23, 2022)

Blessed said:


> I am just happy to know you have a doctor that understands your pain.  Most doctors now do not want to give pain medication even if it makes the patient suffer. With regulations we have now doctors are afraid to give the proper care to manage chronic conditions that they know are painful.




i have a drs phonecall  appt  on the 6th jan about my husbands pain, 
we seem to have tried everything , even morphine, but nothing helps 
im not sure hes tried tylenol  yet ...


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## Been There (Dec 23, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I guess it happened simultaneously here. I know people with young kids and no one's mentioned a shortage of children's Tylenol. But, none of their kids have been sick, so maybe I was just unaware.
> 
> No Norco due to no Tylenol was a surprise. I'm taking Ibuprophen (lots) and Baclofen. So far I'm doing ok with that as long as I basically space-out in front of the TV screen.


Are you concerned with getting withdrawals?


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## Jean-Paul (Dec 23, 2022)

Nowadays doctors are quick to prescribe narcotics, Tylenol and NASIDS. All of these, even aspirin, are very powerful complex organic chemicals, with many side effects and potential damage from long term use, eg to liver and kidney.

Often the benefits are not worth the side effect or risk. The narcotic pain meds cause addiction and constipation.

I am 3 day postoperative and did without any pain killers at all. (laparoscopic robotic hernia recurrence). 
Suggest to be more critical  and not accept the casual reccomedation of pain killers and NASIDS.

Just my experience and opinion.

Bon santé 

Jon


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## RadishRose (Dec 23, 2022)

Chet said:


> There are other meds with the same active ingredient as Tylenol and they are cheaper.


























acetaminophen, as is Tylenol


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

Devi said:


> Just as an aside, Amazon has Tylenol, Advil and Acetaminophen.


Those shelves are empty here. Everyone's hording Tylenol and anything that contains Tylenol.


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## leastlongprime (Dec 23, 2022)

BC Flash said:


> MurrMurr:   re leg cramps (or other cramps)   My husband use wake up at 3 am (?) with leg cramps.   He started taking a daily calcium tablet as well as a glass of milk (in hot chocolate).    He was surprised that the cramps stopped.   Calcium tablets are available at the pharmacies and Costco.


Too much milk products give me leg cramps. Really bad leg cramps.
Half glass of milk (lactose free or A2a2); 1/2 serving of yogurt; Couple of small slices of cheddar; 1 tums (is really taking a chance). A full vitamin and mineral pill with a smaller portions of above.
Every person's chemistry is different;


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## leastlongprime (Dec 23, 2022)

2 aspirins or NSAIDS will cause an gout episode. 
1 aspirin will give me to have nose bleeds and I endanger myself with internal bleeding. 
Some times my blood is very thick, don't know why, and I need to take a few days of 1/2 baby aspirin to thin the blood out, for me to easily get a blood droplet for the glucose meter.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

Jean-Paul said:


> Nowadays doctors are quick to prescribe narcotics, Tylenol and NASIDS. All of these, even aspirin, are very powerful complex organic chemicals, with many side effects and potential damage from long term use, eg to liver and kidney.
> 
> Often the benefits are not worth the side effect or risk. The narcotic pain meds cause addiction and constipation.
> 
> ...


It's quite another story for people who suffer chronic pain, especially neurological pain. It's relentless, severe, debilitating, and absolutely prevents you from feeling happy. While you can distract yourself from that type of pain for short periods, you are never really rid of it. Even while medicated, you can feel it. It's always there. 

But an effective medication that targets neurological pain, usually a narcotic, can give a sufferer _hours_ of relief. Two, sometimes even 3 or more hours of sweet relief can stop sufferers from killing themselves, or hurting their children or spouse or other people. I'm quite serious. At this point in my life, I would rather be dead than working to cope with this pain every day. Every Single Day, and without medication, we're talking every _minute_ of every endless, arduous day. 

So, addiction is my last concern. ...not even on my radar, actually.

Continued good health to you, Jon.

Frank


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## Blessed (Dec 23, 2022)

Tylenol and other OTC pain meds do not help people with chronic hard core pain.  Almost always we need something that contains a narcotic for pain relief.  @Murrmurr is one of these people, he does not want it, there is just no option.  Without it his life would be very limited.  

When will the time come that people in chronic long term pain have access to the drugs we need just to function.  I am talking about just getting out of bed, being able to cook, clean, shop for food, just the basics needed.  No one chooses this, it is caused by disease or by suffering a horrible life altering accident.  

Pleae give me a minute and be patient, I am about to get up on a high horse.

People with diabetes get insulin, people with cancer get chemo.  People with painful arthritis, back problems, accidents that cause irreperable damage that all lead to chronic pain are denied drugs to help them.  It is ridiculous that anyone should have to suffer because of those that have to use these medications. Why were they invented, to help people with chronic pain.  Now, with the opoid crisis innocent people are denied those things that make life tolerable. As we get older there is the chance that you will suffer from chronic pain, are you fine with that or would you expect your doctor to help you? Okay, I am off the horse.  Please comment as needed. I would prefer to hear from others that also suffer from debilitating pain.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

BC Flash said:


> MurrMurr:   re leg cramps (or other cramps)   My husband use wake up at 3 am (?) with leg cramps.   He started taking a daily calcium tablet as well as a glass of milk (in hot chocolate).    He was surprised that the cramps stopped.   Calcium tablets are available at the pharmacies and Costco.


Quinine! My daughter (my son's wife) brought me some tonic water. She has severe diabetes and has horrible bouts of RLS (restless leg syndrome). She said tonic water calms it really well. 

I'm gonna try it.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> Too much milk products give me leg cramps. Really bad leg cramps.
> Half glass of milk (lactose free or A2a2); 1/2 serving of yogurt; Couple of small slices of cheddar; *1 tums (is really taking a chance).* A full vitamin and mineral pill with a smaller portions of above.
> Every person's chemistry is different;


Holy cow. I used to live on Tums. And then the stomach ulcers healed. Before Tums was banned, thankfully.


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## Blessed (Dec 23, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> 2 aspirins or NSAIDS will cause an gout episode.
> 1 aspirin will give me to have nose bleeds and I endanger myself with internal bleeding.
> Some times my blood is very thick, don't know why, and I need to take a few days of 1/2 baby aspirin to thin the blood out, for me to easily get a blood droplet for the glucose meter.



You should discuss in what ways you can avoid these problems.  I think many of us have conditions or illnesses that we can improve by diet and exercise.  Even simple medications.  Pain is a whole other thing when caused by something you have no control over whatsoever.

I understand and respect the problems you have.  @Murrmurr fell off a cliff that caused severe damage to his spine.  He has had many surgeries that may have helped some but have not eliminated the pain he has to go through daily just to have a half decent life.  This is not something he can avoid.  It is a result of an injury.


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## JaniceM (Dec 23, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Tylenol and other OTC pain meds do not help people with chronic hard core pain.  Almost always we need something that contains a narcotic for pain relief.  @Murrmurr is one of these people, he does not want it, there is just no option.  Without it his life would be very limited.
> 
> When will the time come that people in chronic long term pain have access to the drugs we need just to function.  I am talking about just getting out of bed, being able to cook, clean, shop for food, just the basics needed.  No one chooses this, it is caused by disease or by suffering a horrible life altering accident.
> 
> ...


I'm not in that category, but I do agree with you.


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## Blessed (Dec 23, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I'm not in that category, but I do agree with you.


Thank you, we only want people to understand, it is not a choice.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

charry said:


> i have a drs phonecall  appt  on the 6th jan about my husbands pain,
> we seem to have tried everything , even morphine, but nothing helps
> im not sure hes tried tylenol  yet ...


If morphine doesn't help, Tylenol won't do him any good at all, plus it's bad for your liver.

Maybe he needs a higher dose of the morphine, or maybe Vicodin, or maybe an "up-take" drug. Those are drugs that inhibit your brain's ability to recognize pain....but they make me feel really drunk, so I don't like them.

Anyway, it really depends on the TYPE of pain. I'm sure your husband's doctor will help him get some relief.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Thank you, we only want people to understand, it is not a choice.


And it's not a wee little bit o'pain. 

Thank you, Blessed.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 23, 2022)

Jules said:


> There’s been a shortage of children’s pain meds for many months here.  Then it happened for adults.


I'm sure you know, people mainly want Children's Tylenol for if they need to bring down a fever. With this being cold and flu season, parents and grandparents are buying it up fast.


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## Happy Heart (Dec 23, 2022)

Costco has Tylenol and Advil on sale from December 28 through January 22, 2023 - $4. off.


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## Blessed (Dec 23, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> And it's not a wee little bit o'pain.
> 
> Thank you, Blessed.


When my husbad was sick with cancer, he tried many things, hydrocodone, oxycontin, morpine.  I am sure they gave him other things in the hospital of even higher strength. Like fentanyl etc. after surgery. 

The things we could have at home without nursing care were those first few things.  He found the thing that worked the best, least side effects while controlling the pain was hydrocodone.  That is what we always had on hand for headaches and body/bone pain after chemo.  At the time of his death, he was not in any pain, still just taking hydrodone as needed.  A nurse was coming a couple of times a week checking his blood.  They called me at work after a visit and said his PT and INR were off/bad and he needed to go to the hospital. Went home, got him dressed, son and I put him in the car.  He was admitted to ICU, I s till to this day do not know what caused the problem in his blood.

The next morning I was at the hospital, he was awake, alert, holding a conversation, asking to go home.  At noon, I told him I was going to go down to get something to eat.  I had just sat down at a table with my tray and I heard a code called for his room.  His lungs had collapsed, they could not get him back. I still do not understand, I thought when it got really bad, he would slip away, go to sleep....it all happended so suddenly.  We had been told from the get go it was terminal, they gave him about 8 months.  We had made it five years of sickness, chemo, clinical trials.....I do not think I will ever understand. 

Sorry for spitting all that out, in some way if just helps me to get through this time of year.  It has been twelve years and it still feels like yesterday.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 23, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> Too much milk products give me leg cramps. Really bad leg cramps.
> Half glass of milk (lactose free or A2a2); 1/2 serving of yogurt; Couple of small slices of cheddar; 1 tums (is really taking a chance). A full vitamin and mineral pill with a smaller portions of above.
> Every person's chemistry is different;


Welcome to the forum. Do you take potassium? I used to get terrible cramps in my feet that would literally stop me in my tracks. Since I've been taking potassium daily, for several years now, I hardly get them at all and when I do they are mild and leave quickly. As with any supplement, check with your doctor and pharmacist if you have one about taking it.

Re the OP: Hopefully you'll get what you need soon Murr and I hope medications will be readily available soon, especially for parents who have sick babies. My son was a sickly little boy (you'd never know it now) and I would have been frantic if I couldn't get what I needed for him during those times.


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## Jules (Dec 23, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I'm sure you know, people mainly want Children's Tylenol for if they need to bring down a fever. With this being cold and flu season, parents and grandparents are buying it up fast.


This has been going on for months and months.  It’s all the kids’ products that are low in stock.  The pharmacies ration them. Now it’s adult OTC meds too.


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## Been There (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr: If you don't get your daily dose of Norco, don't you worry about getting withdrawal symptoms? The half-life of Norco is about 4 hours. After that, the RLS may begin, along with sweating, nervousness, continual yawning and some people will become nauseated, but being nauseated is not necessarily a symptom of withdrawal. 

Norco, compared to some other opiates or opioids, depending on what you wish to call them is one of the more milder pain relievers compared to Heroin, Fentanyl and even going down the scale to Oxycontin, Dilauded or Percocet. Norco or the lesser form of Hydrocodone are all highly addictive. I saw a person in the military begin to pull his hair out of his head because he was suffering from a very severe case of withdrawals. I rushed him to the infirmary where they immediately gave him Narcan. I used to carry it with me in case I would run into someone having withdrawals. It's easy to obtain. 

Many former addicts take *Suboxone*, which is a combination of Buprenorphine and Naloxone. It comes in a variety of doses and is usually given sublingual or under the tongue. The problem is finding a doctor that is allowed to prescribe Suboxone. Doctors need a special license to be able to prescribe it.


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## Blessed (Dec 24, 2022)

@Been There I find that all interesting information. I would understand that they can all be addictive but for a chronic pain case needed to have a some what normal life.

I have heard of Suboxone but I understood it is for addicts to opoids during withdrawal but not as a pain reliever.  I don't think this applies to @Murrmurr, he is not withdrawing or trying to quit taking hydrocodone.  He is a chronic pain sufferer that will need his medication for the rest of his life.  Not a choice, a need, so he can live some kind of life.  

We as people, who are not in that situation should not judge or think less of a person that has no choice but to take pain killers every day.  He is not an addict, he is a person suffering pain, that at this point can't be fixed after many back surgeries. This is not something he choose, it is the reality of his life. 

It is sad to say but there are many out there that suffer everyday with chronic pain.  Since the opoid crisis many of our older generation have been denied medication that would give us a better quality of life. I would be included in that number.  So I ask, do you have a chronic, everyday pain condition.  If so, what kind and how do you function everyday.  I would like to know because I have not been able to figure out how to get past it. It is all I can do just to get the basics of life taken care of.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Been There said:


> Murrmurr: If you don't get your daily dose of Norco, don't you worry about getting withdrawal symptoms? The half-life of Norco is about 4 hours. After that, the RLS may begin, along with sweating, nervousness, continual yawning and some people will become nauseated, but being nauseated is not necessarily a symptom of withdrawal.
> 
> Norco, compared to some other opiates or opioids, depending on what you wish to call them is one of the more milder pain relievers compared to Heroin, Fentanyl and even going down the scale to Oxycontin, Dilauded or Percocet. Norco or the lesser form of Hydrocodone are all highly addictive. I saw a person in the military begin to pull his hair out of his head because he was suffering from a very severe case of withdrawals. I rushed him to the infirmary where they immediately gave him Narcan. I used to carry it with me in case I would run into someone having withdrawals. It's easy to obtain.
> 
> Many former addicts take *Suboxone*, which is a combination of Buprenorphine and Naloxone. It comes in a variety of doses and is usually given sublingual or under the tongue. The problem is finding a doctor that is allowed to prescribe Suboxone. Doctors need a special license to be able to prescribe it.


There's been a number of times I missed my "daily dose" because the pharmacy was closed or I didn't request my refill on time, or it wasn't approved on time, and I've never experienced withdrawal symptoms, only the return of compulsive leg-kicking and twitching, backache and back pain, neck pain and hip pain, and weird, painful contortions in my feet and toes. But no nausea or tummy aches, and I only yawn when I'm really sleepy, and then only sometimes.

My medication is time-released, so the half-life thing doesn't apply. Before I took the time-released version, relief would last a glorious 2 to 3 hours, and I was kind of ok with that. I mean, I appreciated every minute. But, you know, even when the effect wears off, the opioid is still in your system....for like 6 to 8 hours, depending on your physiology, it's just not effecting your pain.

"Norco ... is one of the milder pain relievers"

Yes, that's why I specifically asked for it back in 2010 and it's been my pain-killer of choice since. Recently, though, the damage in my spine is worsening quite a bit, so I'm considering talking to my doc about morphine. I already had her increase the Norco dosage, and I tried inhibitors aka up-take meds, but they made me feel drunk all the time and made me unstable. I literally bounced off the walls on my way to bed or the bathroom. And they weren't nearly as effective as the Norco has been (until about a year ago). I've had repair and corrective surgery, a thing called RFA, and several steroid/analgesic/anesthetic cocktail injections but you can only have like 3 or 4 of those in a lifetime because they fry the nerves and then the nerves repair themselves by _*growing more nerves*_. Awesome!...not.

BTW, I have a Narcan kit in my medicine cabinet. It's required by law. I'm supposed to teach my family and friends how to administer it, but instructions are on the box. And honestly, overdosing looks a lot worse than it feels, and super-overdosing feels way less. I'd have no reason whatsoever to be here if not for Paxton and Michelle. I'd have feeding and petting this freaking cat, and anybody could that, he wouldn't care. But here I am, a chronic pain sufferer, and I do not want be a cranky old turd to my wife and kids and grandkids and Paton because I feel like a massive, incurable toothache with a face and 2 legs. Addiction is not a concern.

Good work, Been There!


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> hm. On the positive side, maybe I'll get a 2-ee this month.


2-ee?  That's what we used to call tuinals.  What's 2-ee?


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> The next morning I was at the hospital, he was awake, alert, holding a conversation, asking to go home.  At noon, I told him I was going to go down to get something to eat.  I had just sat down at a table with my tray and I heard a code called for his room.  His lungs had collapsed, they could not get him back. I still do not understand, I thought when it got really bad, he would slip away, go to sleep....it all happended so suddenly.  We had been told from the get go it was terminal, they gave him about 8 months.  We had made it five years of sickness, chemo, clinical trials.....I do not think I will ever understand.


He waited to die until you left the room.  This happens all the time.  They don't want us there when they actually die.


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## Been There (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> There's been a number of times I missed my "daily dose" because the pharmacy was closed or I didn't request my refill on time, or it wasn't approved on time, and I've never experienced withdrawal symptoms, only the return of compulsive leg-kicking and twitching, backache and back pain, neck pain and hip pain, and weird, painful contortions in my feet and toes. But no nausea or tummy aches, and I only yawn when I'm really sleepy, and then only sometimes.
> 
> My medication is time-released, so the half-life thing doesn't apply. Before I took the time-released version, relief would last a glorious 2 to 3 hours, and I was kind of ok with that. I mean, I appreciated every minute. But, you know, even when the effect wears off, the opioid is still in your system....for like 6 to 8 hours, depending on your physiology, it's just not effecting your pain.
> 
> ...


First, I’m sorry that you need to take anything for back pain. I have been there and have had my share as well.

I assume that if your pills are time release, then I would guess that you are taking ER, or extended release. Having Narcan in your medicine cabinet must be a California law. In Virginia, the addicts use Naloxone, which is all but one in the same. Anyone can get their hands on Narcan here. I used to keep it in my “Go Bag.” I often ran into Marines that served in the Mid East that would come home effected by drugs. I would help them the best I could, so they wouldn’t require hospitalization. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t.

I don’t have to tell you that going from Norco to Morphine is a huge jump. I have 2 friends on Morphine pumps or drips, whatever you prefer to call them. Neither friend can go more than 24 hours without taking a dose before they begin withdrawals. I am surprised that you haven’t been increasing your dose. The body does become immune to the low doses (5/325) pretty quickly and then the patient either has to take more or increase the dosage.

Before jumping up to Morphine, I would give Dilauded or Hydromorphone a try first. Taking straight Morphine is really hard to come off of. With you being in California, doctors are more liberal and easier to persuade. Before taking Dilauded, read the instructions very carefully. It an an antagonist and will cause breathing depression issues. Never drink alcohol with any of these narcotics.

When you are ready to give up taking these narcotics, you may need to go to rehab to help you get off of the narcotics. The best place to start is by calling SAMHSA. They will guide you and direct you to the right rehab center. You can do it on your own, but going to a rehab is much less painful.

I had severe back pain for almost a year when the Marine doctor put me on Percocet. After 2 weeks, I started to like it and stopped taking it. I told the doctor that I was beginning to become addicted to it, so he switched me to a Steroid, which isn’t a great idea either. I used it for 2 weeks and quit. Now I just put up with the pain. There is no surgery to help. If I run continuously after a few weeks, the pain will let up to where it is livable. Today, I go to my gym and swim Laos 3 days a week, which has really helped with reducing the pain level.

Anyone that has never had severe back pain has no idea how uncomfortable it is. If I just needed a disc taken out or operated on, I would do it, but mine caused by other issues that I’m told are inoperable.


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## JaniceM (Dec 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> @Been There I find that all interesting information. I would understand that they can all be addictive but for a chronic pain case needed to have a some what normal life.
> 
> I have heard of Suboxone but I understood it is for addicts to opoids during withdrawal but not as a pain reliever.  I don't think this applies to @Murrmurr, he is not withdrawing or trying to quit taking hydrocodone.  He is a chronic pain sufferer that will need his medication for the rest of his life.  Not a choice, a need, so he can live some kind of life.
> 
> ...


What gets me- as I told friend who died last year- was treating individuals who need pain medication like they're common criminals (specifically referring to the drug testing).  Not enough people are willing to scream loudly about these kinds of things, which is why they aren't stopped.  (although a couple of years ago I read patients sued and won).  

I don't know how widespread it is, but it's flat-out wrong.  
And so is the requirement to buy Narcan- at out-of-pocket cost.


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## leastlongprime (Dec 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> You should discuss in what ways you can avoid these problems.  I think many of us have conditions or illnesses that we can improve by diet and exercise.  Even simple medications.  Pain is a whole other thing when caused by something you have no control over whatsoever.
> 
> I understand and respect the problems you have.  @Murrmurr fell off a cliff that caused severe damage to his spine.  He has had many surgeries that may have helped some but have not eliminated the pain he has to go through daily just to have a half decent life.  This is not something he can avoid.  It is a result of an injury.


Very much agree with you.

I understand OP's issue. 
I understand the problem with pain meds. 

As for back and spinal issues:
I find that acetaminophen is an effective for the minor pains and dental problems. Take 2 before going to the dentist and I am fine with just local.  However, acetaminophen does nothing to the sciatic nerve pain... Cortisone pills have made a difference there. I have also tried acupuncture and cupping from a Chinese master and  Physical Therapy. I've tried CBD, THC, MJ smokes, with small success but with unwanted side affects-haven't found the dosage yet. 
Opioids and synthetics make me severely nauseous. 
Heat therapy does give temporary relief,  but all too brief.


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## chic (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> If morphine doesn't help, Tylenol won't do him any good at all, plus it's bad for your liver.
> 
> Maybe he needs a higher dose of the morphine, or maybe Vicodin, or maybe an "up-take" drug. Those are drugs that inhibit your brain's ability to recognize pain....but they make me feel really drunk, so I don't like them.
> 
> Anyway, it really depends on the TYPE of pain. I'm sure your husband's doctor will help him get some relief.


Agree. Tylenol is the worst thing for your liver. And people consume them like gummybears.


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## Jules (Dec 24, 2022)

chic said:


> Agree. Tylenol is the worst thing for your liver. And people consume them like gummybears.


I did many years ago, during my migraine years.  I naively thought it was less harmful than the ergotamine or Fiorinal.  Those took away the pain and made me high as a kite.


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## Been There (Dec 24, 2022)

chic said:


> Agree. Tylenol is the worst thing for your liver. And people consume them like gummybears.


The AMA recommends taking no more than 4 Grams per day, which is 8 high dose of 500 mgs. per day. If anyone is consuming that many on a daily basis, they should be having their blood tested to get their numbers to find out if their liver is functioning properly.  This is why people who take a statin drug gets their liver function tested every 6 months, or should be anyway.


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## Gaer (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Holy cow. I used to live on Tums. And then the stomach ulcers healed. Before Tums was banned, thankfully.




Wait!  Tums is banned?  I missed this whole thing!  What's wrong with Tums?

Also, @Murrmurr, I wish you a special Merry Christmas (from me)!


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## Conce (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> There's a shortage of Tylenol in the US. I'm assuming that's because it's being horded in China like TP was horded everywhere else during the pandemic. Tylenol is produced in the US but most of the ingredients are sourced from China.
> 
> So I'm having a hellova time getting my Norco Rx filled. It's bad enough I'll be having some horrible back pain but Norco also helps with my restless knee syndrome and extremely painful, crippling leg and foot cramps.
> 
> ...


No. There is no shortage of Tylenol in the US. There may be a shortage in your village, but not the entire US.
And there are no reports of China _hoarding_ Tylenol, or its ingredients.
Your prescriptions are hard to get or too expensive because our government is hell bent on supporting drug companies. There is no reason for any of us to pay exorbitant prices for drugs that are cheaply and readily available in other countries.
That said, I hope you get a 2-ee this month, whatever that is.
Cheers!


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## Conce (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Holy cow. I used to live on Tums. And then the stomach ulcers healed. Before Tums was banned, thankfully.


Tums was not banned... ???


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2022)

Conce said:


> That said, I hope you get a *2-ee this month, whatever that is.*


Yeah, @Murrmurr, we're waiting on that.


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## dobielvr (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> And it's not a wee little bit o'pain.
> 
> Thank you, Blessed.


Have your docs ever mentioned giving you fentanyl patches?
A lady friend of mine that used to live across the street from me used those for her fibromyalgia pain.

Although, fentanyl is getting such a bad rap right now.


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## Pepper (Dec 24, 2022)

dobielvr said:


> Have you docs ever mentioned giving you fentanyl patches?
> A lady friend of mine that used to live across the street from me used those for her fibromyalgia pain.
> 
> Although, fentanyl is getting such a bad rap right now.


One of my cancer bouts introduced me to fentanyl patches.  I have a high tolerance for narcotics but these were way too much for me.  I had to beware.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

dobielvr said:


> Have your docs ever mentioned giving you fentanyl patches?
> A lady friend of mine that used to live across the street from me used those for her fibromyalgia pain.
> 
> Although, fentanyl is getting such a bad rap right now.


We talked about it a couple years ago, but I'm not sure it's a good match for me, anyway. My mom was Rx'ed them for fibromyalgia, and the very first time I applied one, she passed out within seconds. I ripped the patch off but I couldn't get her to come around and had to call 911. Obviously not the right dose, but also I think it just isn't a good fit for some people. And because it's so popular on the street, it's on shaky ground with the FDA. I won't be surprised if it gets phased out.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> 2-ee?  That's what we used to call tuinals.  What's 2-ee?


Like a 2-fer but not quite.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Conce said:


> Tums was not banned... ???


It was, but not until I was in my 50s.


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## Jules (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> It was, but not until I was in my 50s.


I can’t find any ban in the US or Canada.  We had a recall of some peppermint flavoured one last months, no ban.  I’m confused.


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## Gaer (Dec 24, 2022)

Jules said:


> I can’t find any ban in the US or Canada.  We had a recall of some peppermint flavoured one last months, no ban.  I’m confused.


Me too!  The stores still sell Tums!  
What?  When?  Why?
@Murrmurr, Could you tell us what's up with this?


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## hollydolly (Dec 24, 2022)

Jules said:


> I can’t find any ban in the US or Canada.  We had a recall of some peppermint flavoured one last months, no ban.  I’m confused.


actually it was Zantac which was banned ( ranitidine )... as it was in the UK... PITA


https://www.wired.com/story/the-fda-announces-two-more-antacid-recalls-due-to-cancer-risk/


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Been There said:


> First, I’m sorry that you need to take anything for back pain. I have been there and have had my share as well.
> 
> I assume that if your pills are time release, then I would guess that you are taking ER, or extended release. Having Narcan in your medicine cabinet must be a California law. In Virginia, the addicts use Naloxone, which is all but one in the same. Anyone can get their hands on Narcan here. I used to keep it in my “Go Bag.” I often ran into Marines that served in the Mid East that would come home effected by drugs. I would help them the best I could, so they wouldn’t require hospitalization. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t.
> 
> ...


I will never be ready to give up taking these narcotics until I die or medical science finally comes up with a non-narcotic compound that doesn't have severe side-effects. And I'll probably die first.

I have had this problem for a very long time, since a very serious fall from a very high place about 30 years ago. I was routinely given various pain killers post-surgery, including morphine, Percocet, Dilauded, and Vicodin. They killed the pain but it's no good if you mostly sleep. On Percocet and Dilauded and a few others in the inhibitors class of drugs, I mostly sleep and when I'm not sleeping I'm stumbling around, so I have to use my walker.

I really do appreciate your knowledge, experience and advice, but I've been dealing with my spine issues for a long time, I know what the issues are precisely, and I know my body and what it can and can't tolerate. 

My doctor trusts that. She has increased and decreased my Norco dosage several times over the last 5 years because I asked her to. She knows I don't want to get the dose so high that I can't do what I want, like foster-parent an infant and shoot hoops with the kids at my old apartment complex and walk all the way to the mailboxes without having to take a break or pay for it later.

Morphine isn't as huge a jump as you think. It was the temporary field pain-killer-of-choice in the military for ages. Vicodin/Hydrocodone was also intended specifically as a temporary medication, however, when the cause of your pain is not curable, then the word temporary doesn't apply. Certainly addiction is likely, but doctors will use the word chronic when they mean incurable. A person who needs morphine or hydrocodone permanently isn't reduced to a drooling idiot. Chronic severe pain will do that.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Jules said:


> I can’t find any ban in the US or Canada.  We had a recall of some peppermint flavoured one last months, no ban.  I’m confused.





Gaer said:


> Me too!  The stores still sell Tums!
> What?  When?  Why?
> @Murrmurr, Could you tell us what's up with this?


They banned an ingredient. Aluminum, I think...I don't remember. So if you can still buy it, it isn't the same formula. Some pharmacies don't carry it anymore because of the controversy decades ago, and rumors and misinformation. Oddly, Rolaids had the same ingredient and they quietly removed it without getting any mud on their reputation whatsoever.


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## Nathan (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> *Tylenol shortage = Pain med shortage*
> I don't need the Tylenol that's in my medication, I need the Hydrocodone part. I take Norco, which is a mix of Hydrocodone and Tylenol.


I feel for those whose pain meds are held hostage by the inclusion of Tylenol.    I Personally have never known Tylenol to *actually* alleviate pain on it's own, without having an actual pain relief medication like codene or hydrocodone included.
 In 2009, an FDA panel considered a ban on acetaminophen, but then voted narrowly to ban only two drug combinations: Percocet and Vicodin.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Nathan said:


> I feel for those whose pain meds are held hostage by the inclusion of Tylenol.    I Personally have never known Tylenol to *actually* alleviate pain on it's own, without having an actual pain relief medication like codene or hydrocodone included.
> In 2009, an FDA panel considered a ban on acetaminophen, but then voted narrowly to ban only two drug combinations: Percocet and Vicodin.  View attachment 258415


It's kind of cazy, right? And my liver doctor advised me to avoid Tylenol and take Ibuprofen instead, so I was a bit dismayed when my doc Rx'ed a pain med with 325mg Tylenol in it, and it's for 3X/day. Pure Hydrocodone would be healthier, but doctors are under pressure from the FDA, as I'm sure you know. 

And I'm worried about that, bc I've got to talk to my doctor now about changing to a different drug all together. I just know I'm not going to get something effective...the effective drugs are on the FDA's No-No list. And the OK list is filled with drugs with worst side-effects than addiction. New pain medications target brain neurons. If I wanted to f*ck with my brain I'd have been trippin on LSD years ago.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Conce said:


> No. There is* no shortage of Tylenol in the US. There may be a shortage in your village, but not the entire US.
> And there are no reports of China hoarding Tylenol, or its ingredients.*
> Your prescriptions are hard to get or too expensive because our government is hell bent on supporting drug companies. There is no reason for any of us to pay exorbitant prices for drugs that are cheaply and readily available in other countries.
> That said, I hope you get a 2-ee this month, whatever that is.
> Cheers!


That's not true.

China produces Tylenol and an ingredient in Tylenol, and yes, they are hording it in that they aren't exporting it right now. Most of it was sent to the 301 Hospital in Beijing, their most advanced medical center. 30 to 40 percent of Beijing's 22million people are sick with Co-V, including some of the CCPs top officials, and the 301 Hospital is where the CCPs top officials go for treatment.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 24, 2022)

Conce said:


> Tums was not banned... ???


They banned an ingredient. Aluminum, I think...I don't remember. So if you can still buy it, it isn't the same formula. Some pharmacies don't carry it anymore because of the controversy decades ago, and rumors and misinformation. Oddly, Rolaids had the same ingredient and they quietly removed it without getting any mud on their reputation whatsoever.


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## Gaer (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> They banned an ingredient. Aluminum, I think...I don't remember. So if you can still buy it, it isn't the same formula. Some pharmacies don't carry it anymore because of the controversy decades ago, and rumors and misinformation. Oddly, Rolaids had the same ingredient and they quietly removed it without getting any mud on their reputation whatsoever.


Oh yes!  Aluminum!  This was also in many men's deodorants!  I was very cautious when I was married, not to buy anything with aluminum in it!
Thanks for telling me!


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## leastlongprime (Dec 24, 2022)

Know why you taking drugs and their side affects.


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## Nathan (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> It's kind of cazy, right? And my liver doctor advised me to avoid Tylenol and take Ibuprofen instead, so I was a bit dismayed when my doc Rx'ed a pain med with 325mg Tylenol in it, and it's for 3X/day. Pure Hydrocodone would be healthier, but doctors are under pressure from the FDA, as I'm sure you know.
> 
> And I'm worried about that, bc I've got to talk to my doctor now about changing to a different drug all together. I just know I'm not going to get something effective...the effective drugs are on the FDA's No-No list. And the OK list is filled with drugs with worst side-effects than addiction. New pain medications target brain neurons. If I wanted to f*ck with my brain I'd have been trippin on LSD years ago.


When I was on tx for Hep C my gastro doc told me the "only" pain med I was allowed to take was...Tylenol!    At 70 now I cannot get any effective medication for pain unless I have some document-able structural damage that causes 24/7 excruciating pain.  I will not take *any* NSAIDs, as they heighten heart attack and stroke risk. The SSRIs & SNRIs being prescribed for pain have a ton of side effects that make you wish you'd just gone to street drugs instead.


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## Been There (Dec 24, 2022)

Boston Scientific has produced a spinal cord stimulator, which is not like a tens unit. It consists of leads that attach to nerves under the skin using sutures. Initially, the stimulator is attached to your back on the outside of your back for a week’s trial. The leads carry an electric pulse which interrupts the pain signal. If the patient gets relief from using the stimulator, it is then installed under the skin Implanted), so that the patient may shower, sleep on their back, etc. The only maintenance that should be required may be a change of the battery.

This stimulator has allowed thousands to come off of using narcotics and has been tested quite vigorously to the point that BS claims the device to be 85% effective. Maybe it’s worth to at least ask your neurologist about it. I don’t know anyone who has used it.


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## Blessed (Dec 24, 2022)

Been There said:


> Boston Scientific has produced a spinal cord stimulator, which is not like a tens unit. It consists of leads that attach to nerves under the skin using sutures. Initially, the stimulator is attached to your back on the outside of your back for a week’s trial. The leads carry an electric pulse which interrupts the pain signal. If the patient gets relief from using the stimulator, it is then installed under the skin Implanted), so that the patient may shower, sleep on their back, etc. The only maintenance that should be required may be a change of the battery.
> 
> This stimulator has allowed thousands to come off of using narcotics and has been tested quite vigorously to the point that BS claims the device to be 85% effective. Maybe it’s worth to at least ask your neurologist about it. I don’t know anyone who has used it.


I have heard of it but do not know anyone who has had the procedure tested and done. If it works I would be all about it!


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## leastlongprime (Dec 24, 2022)

@Murrmurr #39. 
I see the doc on the 27th for possibly more cortisone (last series was 365 days ago). 
Anyone try Lyrica (Gaba-gabapentin)?


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## Blessed (Dec 24, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> @Murrmurr #39.
> I see the doc on the 27th for possibly more cortisone (last series was 365 days ago).
> Anyone try Lyrica (Gaba-gabapentin)?


I have been on both and neither of them worked for me at all.   My Mom, after shingles, and a friend who had a below the knee amputation both took gabapentin, they did get some relief but it did not take away all the nerve pain they had.


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## leastlongprime (Dec 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> I have been on both and neither of them worked for me at all.   My Mom, after shingles, and a friend who had a below the knee amputation both took gabapentin, they did get some relief but it did not take away all the nerve pain they had.


When I had shingles 43 years ago, taking 10 acetaminophens/day, does nothing to shingles' pain.


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## Blessed (Dec 24, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> When I had shingles 43 years ago, taking 10 acetaminophens/day, does nothing to shingles' pain.


No that would not help.  My Mothers was one here face, on one side of the nose and that cheek.  The pain from the nerve damage was horrible for her. She was 84 at the time.  

She was living with me, she would shriek, scream in pain.  The only thing that helped for a long time was a hot wash cloth laid on the area.  I kept a big bowel on the counter. A huge stack of cloths, I could grab one, wet it and throw it in the microwave to get it hot in about 30 seconds. 

The gabapentin to a long time to help but at least she stopped shrieking in pain, we still used the hot cloths.  Is your pain after 43 years still the shingles or from something else?


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## leastlongprime (Dec 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> No that would not help.  My Mothers was one here face, on one side of the nose and that cheek.  The pain from the nerve damage was horrible for her. She was 84 at the time.
> 
> She was living with me, she would shriek, scream in pain.  The only thing that helped for a long time was a hot wash cloth laid on the area.  I kept a big bowel on the counter. A huge stack of cloths, I could grab one, wet it and throw it in the microwave to get it hot in about 30 seconds.
> 
> The gabapentin to a long time to help but at least she stopped shrieking in pain, we still used the hot cloths.  Is your pain after 43 years still the shingles or from something else?


The Tylenols were taken When I had shingles 43 years ago.  
Post pain was fleetingly brief and tolerable, even though for 20 years.  No pain medications taken.


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## mrstime (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I guess it happened simultaneously here. I know people with young kids and no one's mentioned a shortage of children's Tylenol. But, none of their kids have been sick, so maybe I was just unaware.
> 
> No Norco due to no Tylenol was a surprise. *I'm taking Ibuprophen (lots) *and Baclofen. So far I'm doing ok with that as long as I basically space-out in front of the TV screen.


Hope you are taking the ibuprofen with food!


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## Conce (Dec 24, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> That's not true.
> 
> China produces Tylenol and an ingredient in Tylenol, and yes, they are hording it in that they aren't exporting it right now. Most of it was sent to the 301 Hospital in Beijing, their most advanced medical center. 30 to 40 percent of Beijing's 22million people are sick with Co-V, including some of the CCPs top officials, and the 301 Hospital is where the CCPs top officials go for treatment.


Johnson and Johnson makes Tylenol. That's true.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 25, 2022)

leastlongprime said:


> @Murrmurr #39.
> I see the doc on the 27th for possibly more cortisone (last series was 365 days ago).
> Anyone try Lyrica (Gaba-gabapentin)?


Gabapentin wasn't a good fit for me. It didn't make me feel drunk, but it made me feel unsteady and dizzy, and didn't do much for the pain.

I've had my limit of injections. Literally, you're limited to so-many in a lifetime. Those worked exceptionally well a couple of times - once, for a whole 9 months! And I didn't need pain meds at all for 6 of them (and no withdrawal symptoms).

The reason for the limit is because the chemicals they inject you with can eventually cause various types of damage. The injections that worked exceptionally well for me literally fried the offending nerve roots in my spine, and nerves can repair themselves, usually by growing off-shoots, creating a new pathway or connecting to the nearest one. Eventually you have this tiny, tangled cobweb of new, very alive nerves, it's impossible to know which one(s) to inject, and they're too small anyway.

That's where I'm at.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 25, 2022)

Conce said:


> Johnson and Johnson makes Tylenol. That's true.


They source the ingredients from China.


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## JaniceM (Dec 25, 2022)

Gaer said:


> Oh yes!  Aluminum!  This was also in many men's deodorants!  I was very cautious when I was married, not to buy anything with aluminum in it!
> Thanks for telling me!


I don't want to go off-topic, but I remember it was also in many popular ladies' antiperspirants back in the 1970s, and women/girls were advised to stop buying those products.


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## Conce (Dec 25, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Holy cow. I used to live on Tums. And then the stomach ulcers healed. Before Tums was banned, thankfully.


Tums was not banned. Tums Antacid Chewable Tablets Assorted Berries | Walgreens


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## Blessed (Dec 25, 2022)

@Murrmurr, how you doing?  Did you get through the holiday okay? Call the doc and pharmacy first thing in the morning, to get your meds or something else so you don't have to suffer. If you can't get your norco I hope you know what else works with the least side effects for you.  Just don't want you or anyone else to be in that situation.  

I would check with the pharmacist to see what they have on hand, I am sure there are many that are also needing the norco and having to switch to something else.
It would be good to have a couple of options from the doc so you can get something to get you through this crazy time.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 25, 2022)

Conce said:


> Tums was not banned. Tums Antacid Chewable Tablets Assorted Berries | Walgreens


Production was shut down by the FDA until the manufacturer removed aluminum from the formula.

I co-owned a convenience store when Tums had to be taken off our shelves.

Tums was banned. Sold now without the aluminum.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 25, 2022)

Blessed said:


> @Murrmurr, how you doing?  Did you get through the holiday okay? Call the doc and pharmacy first thing in the morning, to get your meds or something else so you don't have to suffer. If you can't get your norco I hope you know what else works with the least side effects for you.  Just don't want you or anyone else to be in that situation.
> 
> I would check with the pharmacist to see what they have on hand, I am sure there are many that are also needing the norco and having to switch to something else.
> It would be good to have a couple of options from the doc so you can get something to get you through this crazy time.


Doctor's office will be open tomorrow but she might not be in til Tuesday. Meanwhile, I'll take the codeine my daughter brought me. Makes me drowsy but that's ok; Meesh will be home all week.

I saved 2 of the 7 Norco the pharmacist gave me so I could enjoy Xmas morning with my son & family. So I got thru that just fine. Michelle's sister & hubs are expected soon, bringing a ham. Meesh made the sides and dessert. I'll take the codeine if I need to.

Merry Christmas!


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## Been There (Dec 26, 2022)

There are narcotic pain relievers similar to Norco, only without acetaminophen. Some are just as inexpensive also. I’m not referring to Fentanyl or Methadone. Maybe switch to one of them and then you won’t need to worry about Acetaminophen.


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