# Social Security benefits for illegal immigrants



## Davey Jones (Nov 30, 2014)

It doesnt get any better then this......


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/f...dicare-for-illegal-immigrants/article/2556750#!


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## pchrise (Nov 30, 2014)

It figures I guess


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## QuickSilver (Nov 30, 2014)

Just one question... Isn't the object of this for immigrants to work and PAY into Social Security and Medicare, as well as income taxes?   SO........IF they pay into it.. why shouldn't they collect it when they retire?   Just askin'


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## Butterfly (Nov 30, 2014)

well, if they meet the requirements -- legit social security number, and enough quarters if working and contributing to qualify for benefits, then I don't see a problem.  Nobody, including citizens, just automatically gets social security.  You have to qualify by having paid in to it for a certain length of time (I'm thinking 40 quarters, but that could be way off), and the amount you get is based on the amount documented that you earned over that period.   In the alternative, if we don't want them to qualify for social security if they are working legally, then I don't see how we can make them contribute to it out of their paychecks.  Fair is fair, after all.


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 30, 2014)

I agree, if they pay into the system, then they should be eligible for social security benefits like anyone else.  From what I read, the only objection is from those who oppose everything the President does, and are against any type of immigration reform.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this is even an issue.  http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/immigrants-benefits-obamas-actions-27198834?singlePage=true





> WASHINGTON — Nov 26, 2014, 8:47 PM ET
> By JIM KUHNHENN Associated Press





> "Many immigrants in the United States illegally who apply for work permits under President Barack Obama's new executive actions would be eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits upon reaching retirement age, according to the White House.
> 
> Under Obama's actions, immigrants who are spared deportation could obtain work permits and a Social Security number. As a result, they would pay into the Social Security system through payroll taxes.
> 
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 1, 2014)

An immigration policy will take much tweaking with so many different categories of immigrants just like Obamacare will with so many categories of patients...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 1, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> An immigration policy will take much tweaking with so many different categories of immigrants just like Obamacare will with so many categories of patients...



It shouldn't operate any differently for the immigrants as it does for US citizens provided they are working and paying into the system.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 1, 2014)

"The conservative backlash has been swift and will certainly extend into a GOP Congress’ deliberations in 2015 over how to limit the reach of the president’s immigration blueprint."

......Yawn...what else is new?


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## QuickSilver (Dec 1, 2014)

Who expects differently....  You are correct... it's become a ((((((((yawn))))))))))


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## GeorgiaXplant (Dec 1, 2014)

When US citizens work in foreign countries and pay taxes in those countries, they are usually eligible for benefits there. Why should people who pay taxes in this country be treated any differently than anyone else who pays into the system?

I agree that this is a non-issue.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 1, 2014)

IF they legally paid into the system using their own original name and social security number. IF they used fraudulent means or stolen IDs they should NOT. And just like other American citizens the same rules and criteria should apply. Actually the same rules apply to guest workers and/or visitors because we are only talking legal status, not citizenship in many cases.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 1, 2014)

WhatInThe said:


> IF they legally paid into the system using their own original name and social security number. IF they used fraudulent means or stolen IDs they should NOT. And just like other American citizens the same rules and criteria should apply. Actually the same rules apply to guest workers and/or visitors because we are only talking legal status, not citizenship in many cases.



Can you explain HOW someone using a stolen card or a fraudulent name can collect benefits?   These people may do this to get a job, but they never see a dime of the money that is paid.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Dec 1, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree, if they pay into the system, then they should be eligible for social security benefits like anyone else. From what I read, the only objection is from those who oppose everything the President does, and are against any type of immigration reform.



Therein lies the biggest issue to this even working.  The Pubs are more concerend about negating anything this POTUS does than wanting what is best for the Country.  Walk in the shoes of the Hispanic immigrant... after the executive order was announced.  If they come out of the shadows, apply for the work visa and a social security number, the government knows where they live.  If the Pubs, in their effort to defeat anything associated with the POTUS, overturn the executive order or pass legislation that renders it moot... now what do those with the work visa status do??  The immigration authorities now can come knock on their door and haul them away.  Be "legal" today.  Be able to apply for a better paying job today.  Start paying taxes today.  Tomorrow, for reasons only political, they face deportation.  What a mess is bred by partisan politics!!!!  Those who just saw millions of dollars spent on their own election campaigns will work their partisan butts off to keep families from earning a living wage.  We, as a Country, should be ashamed!!!


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Can you explain HOW someone using a stolen card or a fraudulent name can collect benefits?   These people may do this to get a job, but they never see a dime of the money that is paid.


Maybe not directly but there are indirect ways.

Millions of illegal immigrants are getting a bigger tax refund than you.
 Bob Segall, of WTHR  reports finding a massive tax loophole that provides billions of  dollars in tax credits to undocumented workers and, in many cases,  people who have never stepped foot in the United States. And you are  paying for it.
 Inside his central Indiana office, a longtime tax consultant sits at his desk, shaking his head in disbelief.
 “There is not a doubt in my mind there’s huge fraud taking place  here,” he said, slowly flipping through the pages of a tax return.
 The tax preparer does not want you to know his name for fear of  reprisal, but he does want you to know about a nationwide problem with a  huge price tag.
 He came to 13 Investigates to blow the whistle.
*“We’re talking about a multi-billion dollar fraud scheme here that’s taking place and no one is talking about it,”* he said.
 The scheme involves illegal immigrants — illegal immigrants who are filing tax returns.
*How it works*
 The Internal Revenue Service says everyone who is employed in the  United States – even those who are working here illegally – must report  income and pay taxes. Of course, undocumented workers are not supposed  to have a social security number. So for them to pay taxes, the IRS  created what’s called an ITIN, an individual taxpayer identification  number. A 9-digit ITIN number issued by the IRS provides both resident  and nonresident aliens with a unique identification number that allows  them to file tax returns.
 While that may have seemed like a good idea, it’s now backfiring in a big way.
 Each spring, at tax preparation offices all across the nation, many  illegal immigrants are now eagerly filing tax returns to take advantage  of a tax loophole, using their ITIN numbers to get huge refunds from the  IRS.
 The loophole is called the Additional Child Tax Credit. It’s a  fully-refundable credit of up to $1000 per child, and it’s meant to help  working families who have children living at home.
 But many undocumented workers are claiming the tax credit for kids who live in Mexico – lots of kids in Mexico.
*“We’ve seen sometimes 10 or 12 dependents, most times nieces and nephews, on these tax forms,”* the whistleblower said. “The more you put on there, the more you get back.”​


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## WhatInThe (Dec 1, 2014)

The IF they are paying into the system legally.

ID or identity theft is a huge problem including high immigrant areas like Florida. Identity theft takeover for things like medical BENEFITs is also a growing problem. And the theft of social security numbers can be used to get a job, credit and/or benefits private & government.

Should it be considered a coincidence that higher ID theft rates and illegal immigrants are frequently coinciding? I know people with Hispanic last names had their ID stolen several times in less than 10 years in a high immigrant state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/americas/04iht-id.2688618.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 notice the year of this article. This has been an existing problem.

ID theft in high immigrant areas

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20141119/ARCHIVES/411191060?tc=ar

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/01/15/florida-leads-nation-in-identity-theft/


If these amnestied illegal immigrants have not committed any other crimes other than being here illegally then they should get legal benefit through the same processes citizens and legal residents get them. But fraud is a crime no matter the motivation. If an illegal immigrant committed fraud to get a job and all associated benefits like other criminals they should not be able to benefit from their crimes. Amnesty should've been for illegal residency status, not any and all other CRIMES.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 1, 2014)

WhatInThe said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/americas/04iht-id.2688618.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 notice the year of this article. This has been an existing problem.
> 
> ID theft in high immigrant areas



Hmm, 2006 this was going on in the 6th year of the Bush Admin.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 1, 2014)

Personally, I think it would be pretty hard to show up at the SS office with a stolen card and false ID's and try to collect SS retirement benefits.  What happens when the REAL owner of that number comes forward?   These cards are used to get jobs.. the money sent to the SS accounts is something they will never see.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 1, 2014)

The thought comes to my mind about the actual "work" for the legal immigrant.  Also, how many of the "illegal" immigrants are families, or what did he call them, "gang bangers"?  I don't remember now, but those that want to do the right thing will come forward right?  Out of the shadows.  Ok.  If they are already working for someone that is paying them dirt-poor wages, they'll now deserve a minimum at least, by law.  Most families I know can't survive on one income, unless they don't care about having anything extra, or need government program help like foodstamps etc.  I feel that link made it sound like an easy breezy deal, and I don't think it will be at all.

I think it sounded good because back in the day, folks would come to America, like via Ellis Island, get registered, and go on to raise their families as American Citizens.  This deal has gotten out of hand and Obama even says there are millions and how could we round them up.  I don't think we have a choice but this idea since it was let go for so long.  Like many other things, it's gotten out of hand, out of our hands.  If people live work and pay into SS they get theirs, and hopefully it will be there for all of us.


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## Don M. (Dec 1, 2014)

Illegal immigration has gotten completely out of hand over the past few decades, and there is probably No Way that the millions here could be rounded up and deported.  About the ONLY way to stem this tide would be to post armed guards every 20 feet along our entire US/Mexican border....at a cost of 10's of billions per year.  Perhaps the Best way to discourage even more illegals from coming here would be to increase/enforce the laws prohibiting employers from hiring them...AND levy some Massive fines against the employers who flaunt our laws.  If some of these employers had to pay out thousands of dollars if they got caught exploiting this cheap labor, perhaps it would send a message, and the illegals would have little incentive to come here, if they couldn't even get a slave labor wage job.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Personally, I think it would be pretty hard to show up at the SS office with a stolen card and false ID's and try to collect SS retirement benefits.  What happens when the REAL owner of that number comes forward?   These cards are used to get jobs.. the money sent to the SS accounts is something they will never see.


I've learned my lesson about arguing about retirement benefits.  But as I remember it back in 2007 when my wife filed for SS we went online and filed out all the information, setup her account and never talked to anyone about her benefits.  She received about 6 checks before going direct deposit.  To have DD she had to be on the account as either primary or secondary.  She made two changes (both online, 1 to change her bank info, 1 to change her address) she has never been inside a SS office in the 7 years.  

I set mine up in 2009 again online.  Changed both my address and bank information (changed banks and/or direction at least 4 times since 2009).  All were done online.  The only time I was required to go into a SS office was when I had to hand carry my Fed tax % change and the other time was when my under 18 dependent reached legal age.

I may be wrong but I can see a few holes in the above system.   Fake ID's can be obtainable, I watch crime shows on TV all the time.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 1, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Hmm, 2006 this was going on in the 6th year of the Bush Admin.



Yep, that's what happens when brother Jeb marries what is/was an illegal alien. Or the fact that Bushes probably benefited from plenty of undocumented ranch help for decades or knew people that had.. This is yet another reason to keep little Jeb away from a presidential legacy.

Also on identity theft and illegal aliens.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/perspecti...mass-pardon-for-identity-thieves#.VHy9IzwtDIU


When it gets to the point that the problem is purposely being under reported it is a problem no matter the administration.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 1, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> I've learned my lesson about arguing about retirement benefits.  But as I remember it back in 2007 when my wife filed for SS we went online and filed out all the information, setup her account and never talked to anyone about her benefits.  She received about 6 checks before going direct deposit.  To have DD she had to be on the account as either primary or secondary.  She made two changes (both online, 1 to change her bank info, 1 to change her address) she has never been inside a SS office in the 7 years.
> 
> I set mine up in 2009 again online.  Changed both my address and bank information (changed banks and/or direction at least 4 times since 2009).  All were done online.  The only time I was required to go into a SS office was when I had to hand carry my Fed tax % change and the other time was when my under 18 dependent reached legal age.
> 
> I may be wrong but I can see a few holes in the above system.   Fake ID's can be obtainable, I watch crime shows on TV all the time.



No... I still don't think it would be all that easy.  For the simple reason of the income tax filing.  A person working with a stolen card would not file income tax returns.. the person who had their card stolen WOULD.   The non match of the incomes going in against that card would trigger an audit and an investigation.  Then the source of the fraudulent contributions could be very easy to track down as the employer sends in the payments.    I simply think this is an exaggerated problem... and Undocumented workers are NOT collecting SS benefits like some would want people to believe.  It's just another ginned up red herring..  The Illegal would have a hard time establishing the work history needed to file for benefits.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 1, 2014)

ID theft cover ups. ID of social security numbers being used for employment verification or job not being reported to the actual owner of the number?

http://www.onenewsnow.com/perspecti...mass-pardon-for-identity-thieves#.VHy9IzwtDIU

One immigration attorney is telling amnesty applicants do not put the social security number they've been using. Only the number to be issued to them. Hmmm...


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 1, 2014)

Alrighty then. My only advice being that I *DID* work in computer security for 35 years and currently have 2 close relatives working at the IRS, 1 in criminal investigations and 1 doing tax audits, is the government will eventually catch up (hopefully).  It may take 2-3 years to catch a problem with your SS benefits and up to 5 years to catch a problem with your tax returns.  

*SO YOU NEED TO KEEP ACCURATE RECORDS AND VERIFIABLE PROOF OF YOUR FINANCIAL ENDEAVORS!!!*  It would also help to have a tax lawyer on speed dial.


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## Butterfly (Dec 2, 2014)

Don M. said:


> Illegal immigration has gotten completely out of hand over the past few decades, and there is probably No Way that the millions here could be rounded up and deported.  About the ONLY way to stem this tide would be to post armed guards every 20 feet along our entire US/Mexican border....at a cost of 10's of billions per year.  Perhaps the Best way to discourage even more illegals from coming here would be to increase/enforce the laws prohibiting employers from hiring them...AND levy some Massive fines against the employers who flaunt our laws.  If some of these employers had to pay out thousands of dollars if they got caught exploiting this cheap labor, perhaps it would send a message, and the illegals would have little incentive to come here, if they couldn't even get a slave labor wage job.



You're right about enforcement of employment laws.  Here in my neck of the woods large farmers  and farm labor contractors hire illegal immigrants all the time to work  in the fields, and nobody seems to do much of anything about it.  Not  only do they pay "slave labor" wages, but they avoid paying their  payroll taxes.  A lot of illegal immigrants are also hired in kitchens  of restaurants.  If we'd make a serious attempt to enforce the laws  already on the books, we'd go far in reducing the incentive to come here, as you say.  But the gov't doesn't do anything about policing these employers -- you'd think ICE or the IRS or somebody would take an interest.


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## Don M. (Dec 2, 2014)

Migrant farm workers from Mexico have been a part of our agriculture for decades...especially where hand picking of vegetables, etc., is required.  For decades, these people came to the US, and followed the harvests for 4 months, and made enough money in that time to live decently in Mexico for the entire year...and went back home.  There should be a means of issuing a work permit to them, and tracking their movements, and insuring that they go back home.  Now, we have large numbers of illegals who come here and take our ridiculously low wage jobs in restaurants, hotels, and general construction.  Our own people don't want those jobs, because they can make more money off our welfare programs than they can at our minimum wages.  Those wages need to be increased, and employers tracked and fined if they hire an illegal.  Increasing the minimum wage might add 25 cents to the cost of a hamburger, or $2 to the cost of a nights stay in a hotel, but it would go a long way towards putting some of our own people back to work, instead of using these illegals to keep costs down.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 2, 2014)

Precisely why Republican lawmakers fight so hard against Minimum wage increases and immigration reform..  They are dancing to the tune their Corporate puppetmasters are fiddling.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 2, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Alrighty then. My only advice being that I *DID* work in computer security for 35 years and currently have 2 close relatives working at the IRS, 1 in criminal investigations and 1 doing tax audits, is the government will eventually catch up (hopefully).  It may take 2-3 years to catch a problem with your SS benefits and up to 5 years to catch a problem with your tax returns.
> 
> *SO YOU NEED TO KEEP ACCURATE RECORDS AND VERIFIABLE PROOF OF YOUR FINANCIAL ENDEAVORS!!!*  It would also help to have a tax lawyer on speed dial.



Thanks SOP, I know from first hand knowledge as well, but from the other end.  I was contacted by the IRS warning me someone "tried" to file a tax return with my SS #.  Long story, and your bold type above is very, good advice.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 2, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> No... I still don't think it would be all that easy.  For the simple reason of the income tax filing.  A person working with a stolen card would not file income tax returns.. the person who had their card stolen WOULD.   The non match of the incomes going in against that card would trigger an audit and an investigation.  Then the source of the fraudulent contributions could be very easy to track down as the employer sends in the payments.    I simply think this is an exaggerated problem... and Undocumented workers are NOT collecting SS benefits like some would want people to believe.  It's just another ginned up red herring..  The Illegal would have a hard time establishing the work history needed to file for benefits.



"A person working with a stolen card would not file income tax returns". Yes, they would at least try to file a tax return, because they did with my SS.  I think it's foolish to try, because I can't believe they could actually collect.  I received a letter of warning/alert from IRS this last year.  I did not file a return as I had no income.  I have no clue, still, even after as much research as I could muster to find out who may have used my SS.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 2, 2014)

The issue with the tax structure was it was originally designed to rely on tax payer's honesty.  It has developed from the early 30's to what it is today.  A convoluted immense government headache.  There are supposed to be checks and balances and there is but the wheels of government turn slowly.  That's what the criminal element is banking on.  They file numerous fake returns and if they only get 10% of them through they have made it profitable.  According to a NOLA article it is a multi billion dollar industry.   

 It may not be the illegal aliens who are filling these fake returns but it is a bustling business in our penal system.  They estimate that as much as $4B is filled for each year and the IRS catches about 90% of them.  That still leaves $400M for the perpetrators.  The caveat here is timing it may take as long as 18 months to identify the fakes, and in 18 months the criminals have moved on, relocated leaving no forwarding address.  Then it is up to the victim to prove his innocence and try to recover his or her money.  The IRS is not in the wrong here according to them, it's now your problem and if you don't have the paper trail to back you it won't wash.

 As the felons are released they find it difficult to land jobs, one of the positions open to them is as a debt collector.  They are hired on commission and the companies hiring know that as a convicted felons they've dealt with people in distress.  Debt collectors have your financial data or can obtain it rather easily.  I'm not saying all DC's are felons and not all are dishonest.  But there are enough bad apples to make it profitable either through selling your information or going out on their own to milk the system.

 Records will help and keeping a close tab on your finances are still the best methods against possible fraud.


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## Harvatt (Dec 2, 2014)

Are you back Denise , and more to the point are you well now  ?      Harvatt  .


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## Butterfly (Dec 2, 2014)

In my opinion, the false tax return thing is probably not something the individual farm laborer/restaurant/hotel worker would be sophisticated enough to do.  Most of them do not want to come within miles of the IRS or any other government authority, for fear of being deported.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 3, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> In my opinion, the false tax return thing is probably not something the individual farm laborer/restaurant/hotel worker would be sophisticated enough to do.  Most of them do not want to come within miles of the IRS or any other government authority, for fear of being deported.



I agree... that was my point.  The opinion seems to be that undocumented immigrants are collecting social security benefits by using their stollen SS numbers.   It simply isn't true..  These people may use the numbers to get employment... have money for FICA and taxes deducted from their checks and never see a dime in benefits for that reason.  The Presidents executive action would allow people to have cards and work visas and PAY legally.  They would then be able to collect benefits provided they reach the same requirements US citizens do.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 3, 2014)

So what you are saying is there are no illegals/gang or cartel members in our prison system who might be taking part in the scheme to defraud the IRS by filing stolen identity fake tax returns?


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## Don M. (Dec 3, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> So what you are saying is there are no illegals/gang or cartel members in our prison system who might be taking part in the scheme to defraud the IRS by filing stolen identity fake tax returns?


t
There was a piece on the news, earlier this week, that said there were over 100,000 fraudulent tax refunds issued to prisoners in 2012...and the numbers are increasing.  Here's one of the reports on the Internet.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/IRS-prisoners-file-1-billion/2014/11/25/id/609528/

It appears that the IRS needs to revamp its procedures.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 3, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> So what you are saying is there are no illegals/gang or cartel members in our prison system who might be taking part in the scheme to defraud the IRS by filing stolen identity fake tax returns?



I'm sorry... I thought we were talking about Illegal immigrants... not prisoners..  And I thought we were talking about illegals filing for SS benefits.. not fraudulent tax returns.  Identity theft is a huge problem...


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 3, 2014)

It's all one big can of worms.  SS has been supporting government programs since the 50's, thanks to the Eisenhower administration.  So anything that affects one affects the other.  Filing for benefits for non-existant children, file a fraudulent tax return, milk Medicade,,,etc it doesn't matter.  Even our military is training legal cartel members (who have non-legal relatives in other countries) in the use of computers and they are getting out with skills that enable them to gain financial information or steal identities.  They can use the information themselves or sell it as a package deal to exporters of illegals that gain access to our systems. 

All you can do at this point is try to protect your little corner of the world the best you can and assume nothing, trust no one and hold your purse a little tighter to your side.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 3, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> So what you are saying is there are no illegals/gang or cartel members in our prison system who might be taking part in the scheme to defraud the IRS by filing stolen identity fake tax returns?



Most of us know that there are SOP  I would guess it's usually someone in the country illegally, and has been here long enough to learn the ropes/scams.  Just like people in general though, they aren't all doing it, and the new immigrants probably wouldn't have the knowledge to pull it off.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 3, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> I'm sorry... I thought we were talking about Illegal immigrants... not prisoners..  And I thought we were talking about illegals filing for SS benefits.. not fraudulent tax returns.  Identity theft is a huge problem...



Most drug cartel members aren't upstanding citizens of the US.  I would guess they are most likely illegal immigrants come to seek the American Dream with their types of business.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 3, 2014)

I think I will dis-engage from this, for those of you who want, keep your rose-colored blinders on, plan a getaway to some safe foreign port like Acapulco or even a summer time visit to exotic North Korea, India, the Holy Land or others.  Just don't expect me to follow suit.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 3, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> I think I will dis-engage from this, for those of you who want, keep your rose-colored blinders on, plan a getaway to some safe foreign port like Acapulco or even a summer time visit to exotic North Korea, India, the Holy Land or others.  Just don't expect me to follow suit.



I value your opinion, everyone has a right here, to their opinion, just remember you are welcome here.  I love to see people discuss things and work together on topics, respecting one an other.  If we can do that here, it gives me hope maybe it will happen more in the offline world


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## QuickSilver (Dec 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> Most drug cartel members aren't upstanding citizens of the US.  I would guess they are most likely illegal immigrants come to seek the American Dream with their types of business.



Members of the Drug cartels have more money than you or I could ever dream of.  Stealing someone's tax return wouldn't be worth their time..


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## WhatInThe (Dec 3, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Members of the Drug cartels have more money than you or I could ever dream of.  Stealing someone's tax return wouldn't be worth their time..



I don't know the fact that illegal immigrants even applied for something like Obama Care or have filed fraudulent or non applicable income tax returns leads one to believe they are doing more with social security numbers than simply getting a job which is fraud in itself.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/Obamacare...-Act-illegal-immigrants/2014/09/23/id/596383/

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/illegal-immigration-tax-loophole/2012/08/23/id/449490/


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## Denise1952 (Dec 3, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Members of the Drug cartels have more money than you or I could ever dream of.  Stealing someone's tax return wouldn't be worth their time..



They don't get rich over night, if they do make it to the big-time. Plus, if they could establish a "front" with legitimate records of filing taxes.  I never said they all do it, I don't tend to exaggerate my thoughts and ideas, so I am just saying there are those that no doubt at least try this.  Another thing I kind of hit on in the beginning, a lot of poorer immigrants are used in drug running, again, they aren't all rich, not even most I would bet.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 3, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Members of the Drug cartels have more money than you or I could ever dream of.  Stealing someone's tax return wouldn't be worth their time..


 You obviously have no clue about how cartels/gangs/mafia (all the same) work.  It is an organization not unlike a pyramid.  The top benefits from income from the lower levels.  They provide money making opportunities and a degree of protection to the workers for their loyalty.  The workers are assigned duties to benefit the leaders not the other way around.  The workers are expected to generated income from other sources i.e. drugs, fraud, robberies, loan sharking, prostitution, car jacking, and yes stolen identities including fake tax returns.   

 The bosses expect their cut first and what is left over is what the workers live the high life on.  The more they can generate from nefarious activities the more they keep to dress funny, get tattoos and play the role.  They have no payroll department or long term benefits, records are their Achilles heel so usually none are kept.  Any type of dishonest activity is OK as long as it doesn't affect the boss's bottom line.  If a worker decides that he/she can do better by themselves and become an independent dealer the c/g/m have their own internal policing methods and it's usually final.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 3, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> You obviously have no clue about how cartels/gangs/mafia (all the same) work.  It is an organization not unlike a pyramid.  The top benefits from income from the lower levels.  They provide money making opportunities and a degree of protection to the workers for their loyalty.  The workers are assigned duties to benefit the leaders not the other way around.  The workers are expected to generated income from other sources i.e. drugs, fraud, robberies, loan sharking, prostitution, car jacking, and yes stolen identities including fake tax returns.
> 
> The bosses expect their cut first and what is left over is what the workers live the high life on.  The more they can generate from nefarious activities the more they keep to dress funny, get tattoos and play the role.  They have no payroll department or long term benefits, records are their Achilles heel so usually none are kept.  Any type of dishonest activity is OK as long as it doesn't affect the boss's bottom line.  If a worker decides that he/she can do better by themselves and become an independent dealer the c/g/m have their own internal policing methods and it's usually final.



Sorry.... You are obviously an expert on illegal activities...  I defer to your expertise...


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## Denise1952 (Dec 3, 2014)

You just can't help yourself can you QS, when someone knows more about something then you do, or makes a very, good point, you can't just say they have a good point, you have to be nasty.  I feel sorry for you because there is no way you will ever be right about everything.   And when you talk like this to people, you are the only one that looks bad.  Now you can run and tell on me, I don't care.  I am sick of your rudeness and lack of any sign of humility.


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## AZ Jim (Dec 3, 2014)

Oh Gawd!  Riots in our streets, being overrun by illegals, graffiti on our walls, wars all over the world, identity theft,   murders, robberies everyday....I think I have lived too long.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> You just can't help yourself can you QS, when someone knows more about something then you do, or makes a very, good point, you can't just say they have a good point, you have to be nasty.  I feel sorry for you because there is no way you will ever be right about everything.   And when you talk like this to people, you are the only one that looks bad.  Now you can run and tell on me, I don't care.  I am sick of your rudeness and lack of any sign of humility.



What are you talking about...??   I complemented him on his knowledge... He told me I didn't have a clue.. and I agreed?  What's the problem?


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## Butterfly (Dec 4, 2014)

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the organized (and they MUST be, to pull it off) people who are filing false tax returns have nothing to do with the undocumented workers who come over here to pick chili or onions or whatever.   The individual workers won't even complain to authorities about unpaid wages, exploitation or anything else, for fear of deportation, which is one of the reasons the farmers and other employers continue to get away with paying substandard wages and exploitation and labor violations right and left and tax fraud and a ton of other things.  Remember, most of the workers have very little education, if any at all, and can't even speak English.  If they have a stolen SS number, they just use it for getting a job, and have no hope of ever getting any social security.  AND if they do have a stolen SS number, you can bet someone else has procured it for them and charged them for its use -- it's probably those people who are trying to get illegal refunds, etc. , not the poor uneducated guy breaking his back in the chili fields in the hot sun. 

Do not get me wrong, I think something must be done to stop the illegal entry of immigrants -- but something also needs to be done to stop the whole host of others enabling and preying on them once they get here.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

Most identity fraud is committed by regular old US criminals looking to clean out bank accounts and open credit cards to obtain merchandise.  They also use it to get loans they will of course not pay back.   I don't think this is an illegal immigrant crime..


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## WhatInThe (Dec 4, 2014)

Identity theft by illegal immigrants is not harmless. Take over theft stopped the victim here from things like getting a mortgage.

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-03-25/topeka-illegal-immigrant-sentenced-identity-theft

And states with the highest id theft also have a lot of illegal immigration issues among other things.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...nt-fraud-and-illegal-employment-61877887.html

Theft of id for "employment" purposes is still fraud and still causes problems. I know people with an Hispanic last name  who had to re do their taxes and among other things when a tax return in their ss number was filed in another state. And they had to refile in paper only. Third time in 10 years.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

Well, then I guess it's a good thing that Obama has issued the order that will enable some of the Undocumented to apply for a work visa and will let them pay taxes and FICA.. open and above board.  It will cut down on stolen SS numbers.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 4, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Well, then I guess it's a good thing that Obama has issued the order that will enable some of the Undocumented to apply for a work visa and will let them pay taxes and FICA.. open and above board.  It will cut down on stolen SS numbers.



I guess I have to look at the executive order as a glass half full. Now these illegal immigrants will be documented with a new or an additional paper trail to prosecute later. We get their picture, fingerprints and a known address.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

WhatInThe said:


> I guess I have to look at the executive order as a glass half full. Now these illegal immigrants will be documented with a new or an additional paper trail to prosecute later. We get their picture, fingerprints and a known address.




hahaha...  and therein lies the brilliance of the chess move played by President Obama.. and the neat little box he has put the GOP in.   Make no mistake about it.. the GOP leadership will NEVER do as you have stated... NEVER..  why?  because they are not that foolish.   They KNOW beyond a doubt that if they did, they would insure  that the massive Hispanic voting block will be forever in the Democratic camp... and there will NEVER be another GOP president in the White House.  Why do you think your leadership is so livid.... they've been played by a Master.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 4, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Well, then I guess it's a good thing that Obama has issued the order that will enable some of the Undocumented to apply for a work visa and will let them pay taxes and FICA.. open and above board.  It will cut down on stolen SS numbers.



This is really a good idea, when folks break the law, pass a bill, or make a new law so they aren't doing anything illegal.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

nwlady said:


> This is really a good idea, when folks break the law, pass a bill, or make a new law so they aren't doing anything illegal.



Makes a hellava lot more sense than trying to round up and deport 12 million people at the estimated cost of $20,000 each...  Doncha think?


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## NancyNGA (Dec 4, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> hahaha...  and therein lies the brilliance of the chess move played by President Obama.. and the neat little box he has put the GOP in.   Make no mistake about it.. the GOP leadership will NEVER do as you have stated... NEVER..  why?  because they are not that foolish.   They KNOW beyond a doubt that if they did, they would insure  that the massive Hispanic voting block will be forever in the Democratic camp... and there will NEVER be another GOP president in the White House.  Why do you think your leadership is so livid.... they've been played by a Master.



It's about time.  Although I really like Obama, he has been too nice, not willing to try hard enough to stop them.  Hilary (and Bill) would have figured out a way to outsmart them, and not been so worried about criticism. 

I believe the GOP have all but given up on the White House for now.  They are concentrating all their resources on Congress and the Supreme Court.  Almost as good because they have taken obstructionism to a new level.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 4, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Makes a hellava lot more sense than trying to round up and deport 12 million people at the estimated cost of $20,000 each...  Doncha think?



No, I don't think it makes sense.  First, I don't believe 12 million illegal immigrants need to be deported, but like I said, for us to start changing our laws because we can't handle the influx of illegal folks coming into the country is wrong.  I'm not the smartest bulb on the string but something isn't right about it.  It's like putting a bandaid on Cancer.  I am NOT against immigrants, there would be no US without them, I am against how the government is dealing with the issue today.


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## Denise1952 (Dec 4, 2014)

I wanted to add that I wonder how we are supposed to know if someone has been here 5 years?  Didn't he say if they'd been living and working here 5 years?  I'm sure some of the workers employers could give legitimate references, but then what happens to that employer that's been paying illegals to live and work here for 5 years.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

nwlady said:


> No, I don't think it makes sense.  First, I don't believe 12 million illegal immigrants need to be deported, but like I said, for us to start changing our laws because we can't handle the influx of illegal folks coming into the country is wrong.  I'm not the smartest bulb on the string but something isn't right about it.  It's like putting a bandaid on Cancer.  I am NOT against immigrants, there would be no US without them, I am against how the government is dealing with the issue today.



Except contrary to what some would want you to believe, there IS no influx of new people coming in.  In fact, Mexican  immigration is NOW at a net negative.. which means more of them are going back than are coming in.  Partly because of increased boarder security (yes.. Obama has increased boarder security) shhhh... they don't want you to know that..   Obama has also deported more people than Bush... shhhhh...again.    But also, the Mexican birthrate has declined.. 


http://polipundit.com/?p=37718


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## Denise1952 (Dec 4, 2014)

but there "was" already an influx or we wouldn't have those 12 million.  Maybe it has dropped off, but I'm talking about dealing with what we've let go on for too long.  And I'm not into the blame thing, I'm into the "fix it" thing.  And again, I respect those "theys" opinions, and their knowledge, hell, I even respect your, little bit, lol!!


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

nwlady said:


> but there "was" already an influx or we wouldn't have those 12 million.  Maybe it has dropped off, but I'm talking about dealing with what we've let go on for too long.  And I'm not into the blame thing, I'm into the "fix it" thing.  And again, I respect those "theys" opinions, and their knowledge, hell, I even respect your, little bit, lol!!



oh... you even respect my opinions.... ???   mercy me!!!    Ok... I'm into fixing things too...  So help me out here.. What's your plan?


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## Denise1952 (Dec 4, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> oh... you even respect my opinions.... ???   mercy me!!!    Ok... I'm into fixing things too...  So help me out here.. What's your plan?



I knew that was coming.  Well, since I need to get my breakfast/brunch, I'll just toss my first idea out here, give you time to think it over.  I think it is Mars that they believe might, actually support life, I could be wrong, but since our gov. loves spending our money, how about lining up some trips for US Citizens who are getting sick and tired of our leadership?  "All expenses paid" for, and two-way tickets just in case.  Oh yes, and I'm in tight with the Property Brothers, so the gov. will pay them to design our homes.

Oh yes, and we keep our dual citizenship.  As a leader, let's see, definitely an independent.  Input, feedback, suggestions welcome, or, if you think you have a better plan, I guess that's ok, lol!


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## QuickSilver (Dec 4, 2014)

nwlady said:


> I knew that was coming.  Well, since I need to get my breakfast/brunch, I'll just toss my first idea out here, give you time to think it over.  I think it is Mars that they believe might, actually support life, I could be wrong, but since our gov. loves spending our money, how about lining up some trips for US Citizens who are getting sick and tired of our leadership?  "All expenses paid" for, and two-way tickets just in case.  Oh yes, and I'm in tight with the Property Brothers, so the gov. will pay them to design our homes.
> 
> Oh yes, and we keep our dual citizenship.  As a leader, let's see, definitely an independent.  Input, feedback, suggestions welcome, or, if you think you have a better plan, I guess that's ok, lol!



ahh.... good idea!   Sounds about as good as anything the GOP has come up with ..... which is nothing either..


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