# There Will Always Be Poor People



## Lon (Jun 29, 2015)

There Will Always Be Poor People				 Being poor is a relative thing dependent on where you live, even within the United States. Today, in the U.S., you can fall into the ranks of the poor and still have a wide screen TV, high speed internet, cable TV, a car, and a multitude of other goodies and be classified as poor. That's a bit different than being poor in the Sudan or many other third world countries. During the late 1940's I lived as a teenager with my mother in a800 sq. ft. no bedroom apartment, no phone, no TV, ice box instead of a fridge, no car. Mom worked as a waitress and I always had a job for spending money. We never considered ourselves as being poor and neither did anyone else refer to us as being poor. There will always be people at the top of the income and wage scale and that is the way it should be in my opinion, as it provides incentive to many to improve their lot in life. Attempts to balance out or equalize everyone's finances and living conditions via INCOME REDISTRIBUTION is insane. The truly poor and needy must and will be taken care of. We will never allow any of our countrymen to starve in the streets and die.​


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## Butterfly (Jun 29, 2015)

But Lon, there ARE people in this country living in abject poverty, in Appalachia, or in cities sleeping under bridges, rummaging in garbage for food.  Many children go to bed hungry.  Who's taking care of them?   No one, that's who.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 29, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> But Lon, there ARE people in this country living in abject poverty, in Appalachia, or in cities sleeping under bridges, rummaging in garbage for food.  Many children go to bed hungry.  Who's taking care of them?   No one, that's who.



Very true Butterfly, we aren't all wealthy some are very poor.


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## Lon (Jun 29, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> But Lon, there ARE people in this country living in abject poverty, in Appalachia, or in cities sleeping under bridges, rummaging in garbage for food.  Many children go to bed hungry.  Who's taking care of them?   No one, that's who.



Much of which you speak is not a so much a poverty problem as it is a mental health problem, which needs to be addressed. We don't have people dying in the streets from starvation.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 29, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> But Lon, there ARE people in this country living in abject poverty, in Appalachia, or in cities sleeping under bridges, rummaging in garbage for food.  Many children go to bed hungry.  Who's taking care of them?   No one, that's who.



I agree Butterfly, there are many people in America who live in poverty due to various reasons, low income (minimum wage), lack of jobs (businesses closing down, moving overseas), medical or other emergency which depleted their funds, etc., etc.  I notice everyone is always concerned about those starving in other countries, which is fine, but let's take a look sometimes into our own country, and the poor people who are struggling.  http://talkpoverty.org/basics/


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2015)

The Ayn Rand approach to life ticked me off in college, and I don't like it any better now. There are homeless children  under ten living on the streets, under bridges, etc. they are disadvantaged, not mentally  Ill, invisible for a variety of reasons. No one is taking care of them, it is so much easier to ignore the problem and pass the buck.. People who live privileged lives often lack understanding of the complexities of poverty, and resort to simplistic and blame-oriented theories. Living in sub-standard hovels, existing on Kraft dinner is abject poverty. It exists in both our countries, though more so in America. The world that existed,,w hen we were young is gone, the dream is in tatters, the gap between rich and poor gapes wider every day. With the middle class under siege, how long until they join the ranks of the vilified?


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## Red (Jun 29, 2015)

My brother felt sorry for a street person who was begging and said he was hungry.  There was a pizza joint just a bit up the street, so my brother picked him up a pizza and brought it back.  
The guy said "No thanks, I don't like cheese.  Oh well, guess I could pick it off, would have been better to just give me the money and I could have picked out my own"

:lofl:


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2015)

That is a funny incident, Red, but it hardly addresses what has become a very real problem, not just in the big cities, but rural areas as well. I think a hungry child would have been exceedingly grateful for the pizza, cheese and all. I lived on the streets while still a minor,(not by choice,) went hungry and cold often, slept outside. I would have welcomed any food that was offered. For most who are indigent, that attitude remains the norm. Like everywhere else, a few negative 'street people' provide  the benchmark on which we so often judge all the truly poor. The more we dehumanise the unfortunate, the less we need to empathise with their condition.


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## Skyking (Jun 29, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> But Lon, there ARE people in this country living in abject poverty, in Appalachia, or in cities sleeping under bridges, rummaging in garbage for food.  Many children go to bed hungry.  Who's taking care of them?   No one, that's who.



With all respect Butterfly much of the problem you speak of is with adults and parents of children who do not understand personal responsibility. For those who need help consider that we have Unemployment Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Public assistance via the counties, Food Stamps, Student Loans, Free School Lunches, Free Pre school, Free emergency room treatments for those who can't afford to pay, vouchers for child care, subsidized housing ala Section 8, not to mention subsidized Obama care and even free Obama phones. Then too there are the churches, the Salvation Army, The Shriners, Kiwanis, Mason's, the missions, the soup kitchens, food banks and private charities and organizations galore. I could go on and on but you get the point. But sadly we've also created a society of entitlement and dependency that is unrivaled and has done so much harm to our people. The welfare state, having expanded beyond rational belief till it not only cares for the poor as it should but for those that will not study, learn or work. Yes some children do go to bed hungry and some mentally ill people sleep under bridges but as a society we have made provisions and outreach to help.


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2015)

Ayn Rand is alive and well in the minds of some of the privileged few. I was not mentally ill but abandoned/disowned, as are many children, often by families who simply do not want them. I live in the so-called welfare state, even here the outreach is insufficient, please do not ask me to believe the situation is better among my American neighbours.


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## imp (Jun 29, 2015)

Our experiences with the "homeless" were numerous. Having moved to Phoenix in 1979, we noted the grounds around the Capitol Buildings were always well-occupied by obviously forlorn folks. Some had belongings in shopping carts, looked destitute, all right. We learned they were present in winter, primarily, but migrated, many of them, to cooler summer climes, like Denver.

Know what else we noted? Almost all had "smokes". I once asked a guy if he is given some money, what does he truthfully buy first? Reply: cigarettes. Addiction was obviously a strong part of the "game". After all, (facetious), what else had he to live for?

I took  issue with my wife's mother's contention that "Homeless are stuck in circumstances through no fault of their own." I asked myself, why was I not homeless, or any other member of my family, or friends, or aquaintances, homeless? Just whose fault was it then, that all these folks were homeless?     imp


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## Shalimar (Jun 29, 2015)

Perhaps, Imp, you and the people you knew, had a more fortunate set of circumstances. It is not always easy to empathise with others when we have no personal knowledge of their experiences.


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## Lon (Jun 29, 2015)

Income Redistribution is not the answer to poverty, street people, picking through garbage cans, unemployment, children going to bed hungry, et. etc.  The answer is a better educated citizenry so that their knowledge is in demand for employment.  A better educated citizenry will bring about better parenting which in itself would solve many problems. It can't be done over night but it can be done.


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## Warrigal (Jun 29, 2015)

Homelessness and poverty does not automatically mean that you have to live on the street. My maiden aunt was on the brink of homelessness in that she had to depend on the charity of her married sisters for a roof over her head once her parents were both dead. She never went hungry because she had a staunch family to rely on but not everyone is so fortunate. Her income was never enough to allow her to live independently as she had been the housekeeper daughter who cared for the parents in their declining years. They were always renters so there was no home to inherit.


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## Cookie (Jun 29, 2015)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC121964/

The above article is about the spending patterns of panhandlers (most of which are homeless).  John Stackhouse, a professor and at one time a journalist for the Globe and Mail,  lived on the streets with the homeless for a period of time and estimated that some actually made up to $200 a day, but spent most of it on their addictions and very little on food. 

We have a large homeless population here and although many resources are available to them, unfortunately they are not always interested in using them.


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## chic (Jun 30, 2015)

Financial poverty is unacceptable. For anyone, anywhere, any age or race.


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## Butterfly (Jun 30, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> The Ayn Rand approach to life ticked me off in college, and I don't like it any better now. There are homeless children  under ten living on the streets, under bridges, etc. they are disadvantaged, not mentally  Ill, invisible for a variety of reasons. No one is taking care of them, it is so much easier to ignore the problem and pass the buck.. People who live privileged lives often lack understanding of the complexities of poverty, and resort to simplistic and blame-oriented theories. Living in sub-standard hovels, existing on Kraft dinner is abject poverty. It exists in both our countries, though more so in America. The world that existed,,w hen we were young is gone, the dream is in tatters, the gap between rich and poor gapes wider every day. With the middle class under siege, how long until they join the ranks of the vilified?



I agree!  It is far too easy to just say they are poor because they want to be, or are that they could work their way out of it if they tried.  To say so is the "Let 'em eat cake" approach.  It ain't always so.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 30, 2015)

There can be many reasons for being poor and we would do well not to judge all of them by the behavior of a few...


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## Shalimar (Jun 30, 2015)

Thank you Ralphy, you put this more succinctly than I was able to do.


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## Skyking (Jun 30, 2015)

Poverty exists and it always will but as I factually noted there is an extremely huge social net in America to help, after that it becomes a matter of personal choice as to how we live. At some point we as a society have had to make judgments as to how best to aid our less fortunate citizens. If that's judging then so be it, because it must be done. Without taking a stand (making a judgment) for what is right and wrong in our society our thinking becomes just so much pointless mush. And IMO a lot of what I've been reading lately is just that.


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## Jackie22 (Jun 30, 2015)

The inequality in this country has grown at an alarming rate.  The ultra rich have achieved their wealth mostly with the help of more and more breaks from Washington, we all know which party gives the breaks, pushing the trickle down theory.

To me it is very sad that so many think the poor should just 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps'...or that the ultra rich have no obligations to help the poor and homeless.  The unbalance of wealth is the culprit here.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> There can be many reasons for being poor and we would do well not to judge all of them by the behavior of a few...



Absolutely agree!....  Yet unfortunately that goes on constantly.  Everyone seems to know someone who knows someone who saw someone buying Fillet mignon or lobster with food stamps.   Or has it on good sources that welfare is handed out like candy, and every undocumented worker is living high off the hog on our dime.  But this can all be chalked up to the intense propaganda of the political right wing.  Keep the average American distrustful and judgmental while the people that are REALLY robbing us blind get off scot free.  Tax breaks for the wealthy and corporate subsidies are the REAL welfare queens.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Lon said:


> Much of which you speak is not a so much a poverty problem as it is a mental health problem, which needs to be addressed. We don't have people dying in the streets from starvation.



Part of that is very true Lon..   However, in searching for cuts to fund tax breaks for the wealthy and corporate tax incentives, many states have closed the much needed mental health facilities, sending very ill people out into the streets to fend for themselves.  Where were all these people to go?  Most had be hospitalized for so long they no longer have family..  and those that do, find their families unable to care for them..  SO...  what would be your suggestion?


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Red said:


> My brother felt sorry for a street person who was begging and said he was hungry.  There was a pizza joint just a bit up the street, so my brother picked him up a pizza and brought it back.
> The guy said "No thanks, I don't like cheese.  Oh well, guess I could pick it off, would have been better to just give me the money and I could have picked out my own"
> 
> :lofl:



This is what I mean... People use examples like this to generalize the poor to be ungrateful and undeserving and therefore ease one's own conscience for wanting to cut programs and safety nets.


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## Skyking (Jun 30, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> The inequality in this country has grown at an alarming rate.  The ultra rich have achieved their wealth mostly with the help of more and more breaks from Washington, we all know which party gives the breaks, pushing the trickle down theory.
> 
> *To me it is very sad that so many think the poor should just 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps'...or that the ultra rich have no obligations to help the poor and homeless.*  The unbalance of wealth is the culprit here.



Who do you think funds most of these programs designed to help...who?   For those who need help consider that we have Unemployment Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Public assistance via the counties, Food Stamps, Student Loans, Free School Lunches, Free Pre school, Free emergency room treatments for those who can't afford to pay, vouchers for child care, subsidized housing ala Section 8, not to mention subsidized Obama care and even free Obama phones. Then too there are the churches, the Salvation Army, The Shriners, Kiwanis, Mason's, the missions, the soup kitchens, food banks and private charities, small business loans and organizations galore. 

*And there are hundreds perhaps thousands more but no matter the facts some will not accept personal responsibility but rather want to blame it on someone else. *


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## Jackie22 (Jun 30, 2015)

Skyking said:


> Who do you think funds most of these programs designed to help...who?   For those who need help consider that we have Unemployment Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Public assistance via the counties, Food Stamps, Student Loans, Free School Lunches, Free Pre school, Free emergency room treatments for those who can't afford to pay, vouchers for child care, subsidized housing ala Section 8, not to mention subsidized Obama care and even free Obama phones. Then too there are the churches, the Salvation Army, The Shriners, Kiwanis, Mason's, the missions, the soup kitchens, food banks and private charities, small business loans and organizations galore.
> 
> *And there are hundreds perhaps thousands more but no matter the facts some will not accept personal responsibility but rather want to blame it on someone else. *




Most of what you named are paid by the taxes WE pay, of which the ultra rich do not pay their fair portion.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Skyking said:


> Who do you think funds most of these programs designed to help...who?   For those who need help consider that we have Unemployment Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, Public assistance via the counties, Food Stamps, Student Loans, Free School Lunches, Free Pre school, Free emergency room treatments for those who can't afford to pay, vouchers for child care, subsidized housing ala Section 8, not to mention subsidized Obama care and even free Obama phones. Then too there are the churches, the Salvation Army, The Shriners, Kiwanis, Mason's, the missions, the soup kitchens, food banks and private charities, small business loans and organizations galore.
> 
> *And there are hundreds perhaps thousands more but no matter the facts some will not accept personal responsibility but rather want to blame it on someone else. *



Perhaps if Republicans in Washington would have voted on a JOBS BILL...  or an increase in the minimum wage so people would not have to have food stamps while working full time in order to feed their families.. there would be more people ABLE to take your so called "personal responsibility"..   Just a thought..


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## Skyking (Jun 30, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Most of what you named are paid by the taxes WE pay, of which the ultra rich do not pay their fair portion.



Not to call you out but you are wrong unless by "WE" you mean the top percentiles of  income tax payers. I suspect you'd be surprised to find out how few people financially support this country. I'd give you financial facts to mull over but would the facts really matter?


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Skyking said:


> Not to call you out but you are wrong unless by "WE" you mean the top percentiles of  income tax payers. I suspect you'd be surprised to find out how few people financially support this country. I'd give you financial facts to mull over but would the facts really matter?



They also earn an outsized share of the income.   The top 10% earn nearly 50% of all household income.   We also have a graduated tax system... so the wealthy pay a higher percentage... which they can well afford.   They should be paying much more..


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## Falcon (Jun 30, 2015)

Poor  is a relative term when you start comparing.

The biggest worldwide problem, which is far reaching, is over population.  I subscribe to the Natl. Geo. mag, and it frequently shows pics from all
over the world. All you can see is a myriad of children of all ages; all due to ignorance probably.


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## Skyking (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> They also earn an outsized share of the income.   The top 10% earn nearly 50% of all household income.   We also have a graduated tax system... so the wealthy pay a higher percentage... which they can well afford.   *They should be paying much more*..


 
And they do pay more, much more... 46% of the country doesn't even pay income taxes. Keep dividing America into rich and poor, white and black.    

Someone once said that if you take all of the money from the rich and give it to the poor inside a few years the rich would have it all back again. Why is that? Maybe they will work hard and smart, showing up on time and staying late, sober, drug free and in clean clothes. Maybe it's attitude and a desire to succeed coupled with an intelligent plan, taking pride and responsibility for what their work.  What's that you say? It's just luck and anyway as Obama said, they didn't create it,  someone else did. Yeah right, you are all victims.


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## Falcon (Jun 30, 2015)

Good post Skyking.  You hit the nail on the head.  That's the reason, despite what others say.


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## Skyking (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> They also earn an outsized share of the income.   The top 10% earn nearly 50% of all household income.   We also have a graduated tax system... so the wealthy pay a higher percentage... which they can well afford.   *They should be paying much more*..



 And they do pay more, much more... 46% of the country doesn't even pay income taxes. Keep dividing America into rich and poor, white and black, us and them, it's working. The masses are believing the mantra.      

 Someone once said that if you take all of the money from the rich and give it to the poor inside a few years the rich would have it all back again. Why is that? Maybe they will work hard and smart, showing up on time and staying late, sober, drug free and in clean clothes. Maybe it's attitude and a desire to succeed coupled with an intelligent plan, taking pride and responsibility for their work.  These are things anybody, all of us can and should do. What's that you say? It's just luck and anyway as Obama said, they didn't create it,  someone else did. Yeah right, you are all victims. Rant over.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 30, 2015)

I think the "American Dream" is dying in this country, due to things like lack of job opportunities and living wages for the poor people.  In some areas, there are no thriving businesses anymore, they have all moved to different areas or out of the country completely.  There is a great class division in the US, some parents struggle working several jobs for their families, but their low minimum wage does not meet with the rising costs of products and services.

A low middle income family doesn't have any 'air cushions' for when one of their children get into trouble with the law for example.  It creates quite the hardship on the family, and may deplete any savings that they had.  A rich family can have a child get into trouble and hire the best lawyers to get them out of it, as many times as this may happen, it doesn't affect their wealth.

Some good people are struggling daily to stay above water in this country.  There's nothing wrong with helping other countries, but it shouldn't cause us to neglect the people in ours.  There are people here who are starving, poorly nourished and hope is leaving them because their is no investment in their communities, or corporations providing job opportunities where they live.  The great divide between the classes is very sad to watch, and those in power with the money have no interest in building up this country again.


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## Lon (Jun 30, 2015)

chic said:


> Financial poverty is unacceptable. For anyone, anywhere, any age or race.



It is acceptable depending on what caused the FINANCIAL POVERTY.


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## Lon (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Part of that is very true Lon..   However, in searching for cuts to fund tax breaks for the wealthy and corporate tax incentives, many states have closed the much needed mental health facilities, sending very ill people out into the streets to fend for themselves.  Where were all these people to go?  Most had be hospitalized for so long they no longer have family..  and those that do, find their families unable to care for them..  SO...  what would be your suggestion?



Picking on the wealthy,(RICH), Corporations as the problem just doesn't cut it. The problem is POLITICIANS and what they legislate.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 30, 2015)

Skyking said:


> And they do pay more, much more... 46% of the country doesn't even pay income taxes. Keep dividing America into rich and poor, white and black.
> 
> Someone once said that if you take all of the money from the rich and give it to the poor inside a few years the rich would have it all back again. Why is that? Maybe they will work hard and smart, showing up on time and staying late, sober, drug free and in clean clothes. Maybe it's attitude and a desire to succeed coupled with an intelligent plan, taking pride and responsibility for what their work.  What's that you say? It's just luck and anyway as Obama said, they didn't create it,  someone else did. Yeah right, you are all victims.



You need to dig into your "46%".  I is a inflated figure when you remove the very poor, the old, the disabled, the kids.  Phony number to justify greedy people.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 30, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> The inequality in this country has grown at an alarming rate.  The ultra rich have achieved their wealth mostly with the help of more and more breaks from Washington, we all know which party gives the breaks, pushing the trickle down theory.
> 
> To me it is very sad that so many think the poor should just 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps'...or that the ultra rich have no obligations to help the poor and homeless.  The unbalance of wealth is the culprit here.



There are multiple reasons for income inequality and that's why just one program or idea won't solve it.

To me some of the biggest reasons for income inequality is the outsourcing of US jobs, the reclassification of many jobs so corporate America can save money(an example:salaried workers classified as management but paid like an employee or supervisor), unbridled immigration legal and illegal which can take away good jobs on things like high tech work visas or jobs that Americans could make a business out are now undercut by a saturated and frequently cash only/cheap labor job market.

Keep in mind too some of the statistics are misleading. I know people in hospitality or tip jobs who average upwards of $1000 a week most of which is not reported or taxed but they are statistically part of the income gap. Same for many employees paid cash under the table.

The rich get the bulk of their tax breaks in business which in turn adds to their personal wealth. Overseas tax loopholes that benefit corporations only need to be cut out. 

There are simply too many issues for one policy or change to 'cure' the income gap.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

That 46% is not a phoney number as it is taken from those that did file fed tax forms and did not pay any taxes.   I am likely one of those as I have often filed and then got a tax refund as I had paid when I should not have according to the IRS.

This is all more of why we should have a rewrite of our tax codes so that those millionaires could get stopped from paying no more taxes just as well.   Wasn't GE one of those high earning companies that paid little or no taxes?   Well, if not GE, there are those that do not pay taxes.

We do need a new tax code as nobody should have the opportunity to skip paying taxes.   Even the poorest earners should expect to pay a very small amount to the nations taxes.   As the income does go up then the tax percentage should go up too.

To lay all this poverty and such on the hands of the Republican is as wrong as wrong can be.   It is not the Democrats or the Republicans that are causing our problems.   It is the politicians of either voting group.   Figuring the Presidential control gives, since FDR/Truman, Democrats 28 years till Obama is gone and 32 years for the Republicans.   Now in those years we had contrary politics running the congress.   I just do not get that one party or the other is the problem.   It is the politics being pushed during those years.   The last two years of G W Bush were run by a Democrat congress and in both those years the budget was running further and further into debt and it just continued as Obama took over and has been pushing debt like crazy.   When the Republicans tried to stop his debt spending the Obama bunch just shut down some government agencies till the Republicans had to relent.   Can't wait till we get a new crew in Washington.   Be it Democrat or Republican it will never be as bad for the US as the current government is.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

We either have a few VERY wealthy people on this thread... or a few that have sipped on a little too much Kool Aid...


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## AZ Jim (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> We either have a few VERY wealthy people on this thread... or a few that have sipped on a little too much Kool Aid...



Well I am wealthy, but financially not so.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

I am not too rich for being on this thread, but I do believe we have far too much going on for those unemployed folks.   The well and fit should always be encouraged to go get a job of some sort.   They should not be just sitting around waiting for that perfect job for them to take.

For those without money we have always had free, or heavily discounted, medical for the low income or poor, and even out of country folks could get taken care of.   Get into a emergency room at a hospital and your care would take place.    Once they knew you were going to live they then checked for money.   Care came first.   That is how so many of the illegal Mexicans have gotten medical help.   With children, enroll them in a nearby school.   Again, that is how so many of the illegal Mexican children have gotten educated, learned English, got high school degrees and some went on to college.   Those were our tax dollars being spent to help the unfortunate ones get moved ahead.   We spend lots of our tax dollars with our open doors.   We need to close our borders for real, move those already here along but make any more go through the proper channels if they want to arrive and become Americans.

This country is not too cheap too take care of those in need.   But we really should make sure they earned their US help by being legitimately in the country.


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## Don M. (Jun 30, 2015)

Presently, there are almost 75,000 pages in the IRS Tax Cods....99% of which are tax dodges and loopholes for the wealthy and the corporations.  Massive Corporations, such as Apple, pay virtually NO Corporate Taxes.  The highest tax bracket for individuals is 38.6%....but I doubt that any of the wealthy pay anywhere near that amount.  The Politicians have done a very good job of protecting the assets of their most generous campaign donors.  

Then, we have the issue of so many good paying manufacturing jobs having gone offshore in recent decades...leaving millions of US workers with minimum opportunities for making a decent wage.  Between off shoring, and automation, manufacturing jobs in the U.S. are decreasing rapidly.  This has been the backbone of the Middle Class for decades, and these job losses are turning this nation into a 2 class society...the rich, and those barely getting by. 

There is, and always has been, that percentage of "hanger on's" who have found that qualifying for the various government welfare programs pays better than most entry level jobs.


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## Red (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> This is what I mean... People use examples like this to generalize the poor to be ungrateful and undeserving and therefore ease one's own conscience for wanting to cut programs and safety nets.



Back off ! I didn't do any such thing.  I don't generalize anyone.  I was simply making a comment of something that happened that I found humorous.  If I have an opinion on something, you'll know it.  You won't have to say I mean what I don't mean.


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## imp (Jun 30, 2015)

*"Homelessness and poverty does not automatically mean that you have to live on the street"

*Shalimar: As I said, I call it as I see it. Not implying that poverty means life on the street. See, my wife & I, despite years of constant employment by us both, have combined income which places us BELOW the Federally-declared poverty level. Despite that, we have never asked for, nor received, any form of compensation of any kind not earned as income. No food stamps, no welfare help, ever. The ONLY help we ever received was the "sliding fee" help for medical work while living in rural Missouri.     imp


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

BobF said:


> I am not too rich for being on this thread, but I do believe we have far too much going on for those unemployed folks.   The well and fit should always be encouraged to go get a job of some sort.   They should not be just sitting around waiting for that perfect job for them to take.
> 
> For those without money we have always had free, or heavily discounted, medical for the low income or poor, and even out of country folks could get taken care of.   Get into a emergency room at a hospital and your care would take place.    Once they knew you were going to live they then checked for money.   Care came first.   That is how so many of the illegal Mexicans have gotten medical help.   With children, enroll them in a nearby school.   Again, that is how so many of the illegal Mexican children have gotten educated, learned English, got high school degrees and some went on to college.   Those were our tax dollars being spent to help the unfortunate ones get moved ahead.   We spend lots of our tax dollars with our open doors.   We need to close our borders for real, move those already here along but make any more go through the proper channels if they want to arrive and become Americans.
> 
> This country is not too cheap too take care of those in need.   But we really should make sure they earned their US help by being legitimately in the country.




And what do you suggest if there just ARE no jobs?  Or at least jobs that pay a wage where people can support themselves or their kids?  ANd don't say, "Get two or three jobs"   There aren't that many jobs available.... and anyway... what happens to kids and family lives if parents are away at work 80 pr 90 hours a week?  Who takes care of the kids?  or do they just run the streets?   It's always so easy for people to offer glib answers, when the problems are bigger and deeper than some would care to believe.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 30, 2015)

Maybe you should "back off".  There's no need to get chesty with a well respected member of this forum. Play nice Red.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

Red said:


> Back off ! I didn't do any such thing.  I don't generalize anyone.  I was simply making a comment of something that happened that I found humorous.  If I have an opinion on something, you'll know it.  You won't have to say I mean what I don't mean.


 
Excuse me..?   BACK OFF?   HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!  good one!!


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> And what do you suggest if there just ARE no jobs?  Or at least jobs that pay a wage where people can support themselves or their kids?  ANd don't say, "Get two or three jobs"   There aren't that many jobs available.... and anyway... what happens to kids and family lives if parents are away at work 80 pr 90 hours a week?  Who takes care of the kids?  or do they just run the streets?   It's always so easy for people to offer glib answers, when the problems are bigger and deeper than some would care to believe.



As it goes these days there are jobs to be had.   Just not many of those high paid with lots of benefits jobs that once were plentiful.   So for now they should take what they can get and try to make ends meet the best they can.   Just like others  have done over the years in the US.   In the 1960's that is exactly what I had to do.   Including travel to where ever the work was.   I grew up in Ohio but when those plants went silent I took jobs in neighbor cities.   When those jobs went quiet I found a job in Mississippi.   Not big money, but money coming in to me.   A year later I left Mississippi and traveled to Florida, thinking of at least maybe some seasonal work.   Did not happen so went back to Ohio.   Some short jobs but finally decided to try California.    Started in San Diego and visited a friend.   Unfortunately the government had recently shut down some contracts.   Moved up to Los Angeles and stayed with a home town friend now living there.   Jobs were pick up types.   Go to a work place entry gate and if any jobs available you got one.   No contracts or anything, work as best possible and never know when gone.    So I move on up to San Jose and again knew of some home town folks.   They introduced me to 'contract' workers.    It worked fine for me and eventually through the contract experience I got a good job in a big name company and worked and retired from their business 28 years later.

It becomes a do as best as you can and try to outlive the bad times with experience gained and some money coming into the pocket.   Sitting and waiting for the government to find you a job and paying your bills at the same time just makes no sense at all.

Over those years I worked in making grinding wheels, tires and inner tubes, construction, and mechanical drafting.   After finally getting a firm hire in a major company I was allowed to expand into management style jobs and did machine testing in a product test area.   My life changed as the work changed and while in the Bay Area I met a young lady that became my wife.

No job.   Do many things that will help feed you and help you grow into different career maybe.

Sit on your butt and wait and you end up with nothing much at all.


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## Red (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Excuse me..?   BACK OFF?   HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!  good one!!



Glad you enjoyed it Quick, guess you do have a sense of humor after all.........HAHA


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## AZ Jim (Jun 30, 2015)

Red said:


> Glad you enjoyed it Quick, guess you do have a sense of humor after all.........HAHA



That's the spirit there red.  We just love happy people here.


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## applecruncher (Jun 30, 2015)

> As it goes these days there are jobs to be had. Just not many of those high paid with lots of benefits jobs that once were plentiful. So for now they should take what they can get and try to make ends meet the best they can. Just like others have done over the years in the US. In the 1960's that is exactly what I had to do.



BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.

You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow. 

I live in a large city with a decent economy, but I’ve lost count of the places I did business with regularly for years that are now closed (restaurants, small shops, grocery stores not part of a huge chain.) I also know of many people who had good jobs (in this city and also surrounding smaller ones) who were laid off, are too young to retire, and despite constant applying anywhere have not received one offer.  Many only get an interview a couple times a year.  Some have lost homes and moved in with relatives or friends. Most former employees of those places are now scraping to get by. I promise you – they are NOT turning down jobs left and right waiting for their dream job - which is what you insinuate.

You indicated that you’ve gotten thru tough times by taking what you could get and moving from state to state. Not everyone can just pack up and do that. It takes money to relocate. How are people supposed to get to all those other states if their car has been repossesed? (Pull out a credit card and make an airline reservation for themselves, spouse, and kids?) And once you get to another state you have to have a place to live, utilities, and food to eat – which also costs money. And what happens when they need medical care? Oh, well. Unlike "the 60s" today many employer do credit checks....oh, well.

Reading your posts I'm reminded of comments I've seen al over the internet by people who are financially content who say “The jobs are out there.” Yes, there are some jobs “out there”, but the numbers of applicants are staggering. No one can hire everybody who applies. Some people sniff/sneer and say “McDonald’s is hiring everyday.” Well, McDonalds is NOT hiring everyday and even of they were, they can’t put EVERYBODY on the payroll.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

ANd still bob...  even if someone were to somehow snag two or three minimum wage jobs, what happens to the kids with mom and/or dad gone all those hours?   Will people be eager to have their precious tax dollar go toward expanded safe and reliable day care?  What about the older kids.. the teens?  What happens to supervision and those beloved "family values" with no parent around because they are working 80 or 100 hrs a week just to keep the wolf from the door?   It's not and "easy peasy" just get a job thing Bob... there are other problems around that.

Most jobs above minimum wage require college degrees.. or some sort of training or certificate..  How does someone get that if they have no money.. and cannot take time to go back to school because they are trying to support kids?   The Right wing had a Bloody blue FIT when Obama suggested we give two years of college or trade school free..  a FIT!   So.. let's not educate people..  let's not let them make a living wage... and best of all, lets berate them as lazy pigs because they need assistance.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.
> 
> You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but you have totally twisted the idea I was speaking of.    Getting a job can be a real hard thing to do.   What I don't like is to see and hear of folks that just do not try to keep working and they just sit on their butts and demand better government care.   Pretty simple solution is to try to get work. 

If a person has a family, they can still take jobs locally or nearby.   To travel as I did was not easy.   I saved enough money to buy gas and meals and some left for rooms as I worked my way across the country.   I did not eat much either.   I have not underestimated anything.   But when I read of folks wanting the government to give them more while they wait for a job to show up, I do get annoyed.   We do give our unemployed far too much these days.   These items were never intended to make do for all things.   Why should a car be repossessed?    If newer model and not paid off, sell the thing and then go buy the best cash deal you can find.   I have only had car debt once when I retired and bought my wife a new Mercury with my retirement bonus check.   She had driven older and not so pretty cars for years as she went shopping or took the kids to schools and doctors.   My travel car was a old 1960 Vauxhall, paid for and well up in mileage.

I am not saying it is pretty when out of work.   I am saying that a person should not be crying about his situation and should not be just sitting and wishing for bigger government hand outs.   Nothing wrong with my idea at all.   Not out of date or confused at all.   And after all the large cities I have lived in over the years I immediately went to he country for my retirement.   A much better place to live than any city I know of.   Chicago area is not to my liking at all.   Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, all in California are no longer good for anybody to live in.   Their prices are way too high for average workers to be able to pay for.   My $14,500 new house in 1960 now sells of $359,000 to $450,000 these days.   It is a crazy world.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 30, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> BobF, you seem to be out of touch with what has happened over the past 5 – 10 years. This is not the 60s you refer to, or even the 70s, 80s or 90s.
> 
> You seem to feel that the problem is people only want to take high paying jobs. Wow……that’s so off-base and just plain wrong that it boggles the mind. I’m all for personal responsibility, but….wow.
> 
> ...



Yes in some respects times are different because the big difference now seems to be an economy saturated with legal and illegal immigrants that are gobbling up many of those entry level or so called minimum wage jobs so it is tougher to "pick something up". Along with corporate America making what used to be full time now part time. But as someone who has gotten laid off several times over the decades and millennia and had to take lower paying jobs or realized things would never be the same I never felt entitled to a career. And that's the big difference now a days because many who got laid off over the last 10 years were from a generation promised or told to think career-live to work and not work to live. In others sometimes you will just have to take "a" job for money and not the resume-many can't handle that. 

I know a couple of mid level managers who got laid off and the one that took a couple of part-time jobs eventually found 'a' fulltime job and bought a house. The other refuses to take "a" job and literally would rather beg for money scarfing up money anyway they can living like a gypsy-not homeless but a gypsy. They got 99 weeks as PLANNED then when yet another extension did not come through they were left scrambling.  6 years after the crash and the longest job they held was 3 months and they quit because of shift work that  interfered with leisure time-this was white collar worker, not someone coming off of welfare. They get some temporary/occasional physical work you would think they had to shovel coal, poop and crack rocks all on the same day. And this contractor work that contractors make a 30-40 year career out of. No sympathy here. But they were a product of the post 1960s/70s hippy public school system which pushed career, do what you want, you should enjoy your job etc. But this creates job applicants and employees with an extremely limited comfort zone.

Sometimes you do have to settle for "a" job or two and not a resume builder or fortune. It's that sense of entitlement to a career that's as troubling as anything.


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## applecruncher (Jun 30, 2015)

BobF said:


> Sorry, but you have totally twisted the idea I was speaking of. Getting a job can be a real hard thing to do. What I don't like is to see and hear of folks that just do not try to keep working and they just sit on their butts and demand better government care. Pretty simple solution is to try to get work.
> 
> If a person has a family, they can still take jobs locally or nearby. To travel as I did was not easy. I saved enough money to buy gas and meals and some left for rooms as I worked my way across the country. I did not eat much either. I have not underestimated anything. But when I read of folks wanting the government to give them more while they wait for a job to show up, I do get annoyed. We do give our unemployed far too much these days. These items were never intended to make do for all things. Why should a car be repossessed? If newer model and not paid off, sell the thing and then go buy the best cash deal you can find. I have only had car debt once when I retired and bought my wife a new Mercury with my retirement bonus check. She had driven older and not so pretty cars for years as she went shopping or took the kids to schools and doctors. My travel car was a old 1960 Vauxhall, paid for and well up in mileage.
> 
> I am not saying it is pretty when out of work. I am saying that a person should not be crying about his situation and should not be just sitting and wishing for bigger government hand outs. Nothing wrong with my idea at all. Not out of date or confused at all. And after all the large cities I have lived in over the years I immediately went to he country for my retirement. A much better place to live than any city I know of. Chicago area is not to my liking at all. Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, all in California are no longer good for anybody to live in. Their prices are way too high for average workers to be able to pay for. My $14,500 new house in 1960 now sells of $359,000 to $450,000 these days. It is a crazy world.



Nope, I haven't twisted anything at all.  I don''t need to.  Your reply post ^^ is further proof that you just don't get it.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> ANd still bob...  even if someone were to somehow snag two or three minimum wage jobs, what happens to the kids with mom and/or dad gone all those hours?   Will people be eager to have their precious tax dollar go toward expanded safe and reliable day care?  What about the older kids.. the teens?  What happens to supervision and those beloved "family values" with no parent around because they are working 80 or 100 hrs a week just to keep the wolf from the door?   It's not and "easy peasy" just get a job thing Bob... there are other problems around that.
> 
> Most jobs above minimum wage require college degrees.. or some sort of training or certificate..  How does someone get that if they have no money.. and cannot take time to go back to school because they are trying to support kids?   The Right wing had a Bloody blue FIT when Obama suggested we give two years of college or trade school free..  a FIT!   So.. let's not educate people..  let's not let them make a living wage... and best of all, lets berate them as lazy pigs because they need assistance.



Surely an exaggerated setup you just made.   Union jobs are all above minimum wages.   At least I thought so.   And raising minimum wages higher as some places are doing will only cause prices to go up too.   Businesses to need to make profits or go out of business, as someone has already stated to be the reason they can not find a job.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> Nope, I haven't twisted anything at all.  I don''t need to.  Your reply post ^^ is further proof that you just don't get it.



And just what am I to get?    I am saying that nobody should just sit on their bum and expect the government to pay their way.

Now just what is wrong with that idea.   It is all I am pushing, nothing more, nothing less.  Sit on your bum and you will get nothing of value for the future.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

BobF said:


> Surely an exaggerated setup you just made.   Union jobs are all above minimum wages.   At least I thought so.   And raising minimum wages higher as some places are doing will only cause prices to go up too.   Businesses to need to make profits or go out of business, as someone has already stated to be the reason they can not find a job.



So your solution is for everyone to just go out and get a union job?   I thought that the idea was to break unions?  Isn't that one of the Republican goals?  Do away with those blood sucking unions so Corporations can make more profit by paying lower wages with less benefits..   Can you REALLY not see that you have just contradicted yourself in this single post?


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So your solution is for everyone to just go out and get a union job?   I thought that the idea was to break unions?  Isn't that one of the Republican goals?  Do away with those blood sucking unions so Corporations can make more profit by paying lower wages with less benefits..   Can you REALLY not see that you have just contradicted yourself in this single post?



You are an expert at twisting everything others say.   No I did not say go get a union job, just pointing out that many jobs do pay more than minimum wages.

I fail to see how I contradicted myself.   It is you that is being contrary and unreal.


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## Warrigal (Jun 30, 2015)

Actually, Bob might be onto something. More people joining unions could counterbalance the clout of greedy employers and heedless politicians. In OZ during the Great Depression there was a group known as the Unemployed Workers Union and as well as being a mutual support association they were also large enough to carry some weight. They were certainly ready and able to turn up at protests and to support striking workers.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

Thank you Warrigal.   Interesting too that you mentioned the great depression.    I assume you are speaking of an Australian depression.   I remember my father during the US great depression and things he did to feed the family.   He had a job that would call him for 2 or 3 days a week, when they had orders.   So he also did other things to bring money or food or whatever of value into the house.   One trip I remember was when he went out to a farm to help bring in potatoes.   He spent the day there, the wives help put together some food for all, there were many workers doing the potato fields.   Back then most of the work was done with shovels and hand labor.

Anyway, at the end of the work day there was the evening meal the ladies put together.   Then before we went home dad put us in the back seat, mom was on the right seat, dad put potatoe bags on the fenders of the Model A Ford coupe, and back into town we went.

No wages that I remember, but we did have three or four bags of potatoes to eat.

When broke it is necessary to do what you can do to benefit the family.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 30, 2015)

BobF said:


> You are an expert at twisting everything others say.   No I did not say go get a union job, just pointing out that many jobs do pay more than minimum wages.
> 
> I fail to see how I contradicted myself.   It is you that is being contrary and unreal.




So you were just making the statement that Union jobs pay more than minimum wage... NOT offering that as feasible solution.. just saying that..  Oh.. ok...  Yes the few union jobs that are out there DO pay more than minimum wage... Should we give unions more ability to organize and get people to join?   Should fast food workers be allowed to unionize in order to bargain for higher wages and benefits?  If that is what you think.. then I agree with you.


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## BobF (Jun 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So you were just making the statement that Union jobs pay more than minimum wage... NOT offering that as feasible solution.. just saying that..  Oh.. ok...  Yes the few union jobs that are out there DO pay more than minimum wage... Should we give unions more ability to organize and get people to join?   Should fast food workers be allowed to unionize in order to bargain for higher wages and benefits?  If that is what you think.. then I agree with you.



I made my statement and you have just once more changed what I had said.

Yes I have been a union member on many occasions.   No problem at all.   Just hated all the union restrictions on changing assignments and trying to move to a higher paid position or what ever I was looking to.

Yes I have been working in a number of non union jobs and really liked that way better than in a union.   If I wanted a different assignment I would ask my manager.   Sometimes no and sometimes yes.    Maybe same wages or different wages.   But it was more free than I felt when in the unions jobs.

In the US these days, many states now disallow union only jobs.   I think that is a better way to go.   If you like unions, join, but you don't have to join if you prefer not.   I think all states should be like that.   I noticed lots of industries have move into those not mandatory to have unions states.   I notice Detroit has lost many of its jobs to other states.   Ohio is still a union state, but there has been some moves to change that to not mandatory for a job.   

I have just answered your questions.   But for a refresher, no mandatory unions should be allowed but yes unions would have the option to organize if they can get enough folks to join.   Each year then should be a renewal vote, to allow unions or not, on that particular location.


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## tnthomas (Jun 30, 2015)

Lon said:


> There Will Always Be Poor People



You're right, and as the World's population increases by yet more billions, so too will the numbers of hungry/homeless increase as well.

I wish I could interject some optimistic commentary here, but I don't see any real basis for such, at this time.


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## Warrigal (Jun 30, 2015)

BobF said:


> Thank you Warrigal.   Interesting too that you mentioned the great depression.    I assume you are speaking of an Australian depression.   I remember my father during the US great depression and things he did to feed the family.   He had a job that would call him for 2 or 3 days a week, when they had orders.   So he also did other things to bring money or food or whatever of value into the house.   One trip I remember was when he went out to a farm to help bring in potatoes.   He spent the day there, the wives help put together some food for all, there were many workers doing the potato fields.   Back then most of the work was done with shovels and hand labor.
> 
> Anyway, at the end of the work day there was the evening meal the ladies put together.   Then before we went home dad put us in the back seat, mom was on the right seat, dad put potatoe bags on the fenders of the Model A Ford coupe, and back into town we went.
> 
> ...



The Great Depression may have started in America but it went global.

One of my grandfathers worked for the postal service so his family never went without, even though his wages were cut. My other grandfather was a plasterer and with the collapse of the building industry he was out of work early and not able to get a job until it was over. Being married with children he could not get the dole because to do that you had to move from town to town looking for work. The men who did this were called swag men or swaggies after the swags (rolled up blankets) that they had slung over their shoulders that contained all their goods and food. These men tramped across Australia looking for work and would chop wood for a feed and a bit of shelter for the night. I wouldn't want to see a return to those days.

My grandparents managed differently. Grandma took in babies who were too sick to be adopted and cared for them until they were well enough. For this service she was paid an allowance, the only source of cash that was regularly available. Granddad grew vegetables in the back garden and bartered them for other necessities. This course of action is not available to city dwellers but people did what they could such as mending shoes, cleaning windows etc. for the people who had jobs. In most cases, the work was made available as a form of charity and the money paid was much less than market value. 

Landlords evicted people who could not pay rent and their possessions were unceremoniously thrown out on the street. The families of the unemployed were  often very malnourished and sickness was prevalent - antibiotics were not available and doctors were too expensive for many. 

Because of what happened during these times social reforms have been put into place to make sure that there is a safety net for people who fall on such hard times. We do not want to see any more children with rickets, men with lung diseases such as TB and pneumonia and anaemic women worn down by grinding hard work and poverty. The safety net includes income support, affordable medicine and medical treatment, and public housing where the rent is calculated on income, not market prices.

These reforms were and still are necessary to create a humane and civilised society. The extent to which they are necessary is a reflection on the leaders, not the impoverished.


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## Butterfly (Jun 30, 2015)

Anyone who thinks benefits are "handed out like candy" should try to actually get them.  Two years ago when my niece (39 year old single mom with two minor children) was diagnosed with terminal cancer, she had to quit her jobs and lost not only her income, but her healthcare coverage as well.  No way could she afford COBRA (expensive as hell).  Because of the job I used to have, I had some experience and familiarity with getting benefits for people so I took on the job of getting what benefits she was entitled to, in order to keep her and her children from being put out on the street to starve.  

Anybody who thinks this is easy is fooling themselves.  As to the healthcare benefits (Medicaid) there was a social worker at the hospital who was wonderful in helping us. There was a heap of paperwork, which of course gets summarily returned to you if anything is blank or isn't filled out to their liking.  Usually there isn't an explanation, so you get to just try to figure out what the problem is and resubmit.  First we had to get Medicaid for her, and then for the children.  We jumped through many, many hoops.  AND, we had to apply for Social Security disability for mom, so she could have a little money.  THAT required another heap of paperwork, and copies of a zillion medical records.  After answering about a million really dumb questions, like why she couldn't work with terminal colon cancer, we were successful, and she got the princely sum of about $700 per month.  Try keeping an apartment and clothing for children, plus school supplies, etc., with that!  And of course she lost her car.  We also applied for food stamps and more papers, documentation, and so forth and we finally got food assistance for them.  All of this took somewhere around 8 months, and in the meantime family was helping all we could.  She finally had to move in with her oldest son, because there was still no way she could manage on what she was getting, especially as she got weaker.  She died early this year, basically in abject poverty. 

The safety net that is out there is first off, inadequate for anyone who has had a setback that prevents them from working, or from holding down a full time job.  Secondly, it takes forever to actually GET into that safety net.  (SS Disability was actually speeded up (if you can call it that!!) when SS became convinced she was, in fact, terminally ill.)  Section 8 housing has a waiting list so long that our local office is no longer taking applications.  And the other benefits are not instant, nor are they easy to get (especially for someone who is ill and can't get around, or who has no transportation, because they require you to go to various locations to apply, etc.), nor are they sufficient to live on.  Had my niece not had family standing by and helping however we could, she could, indeed have ended up dying on the street, and her children could have starved.  

Everybody who is poor is not so because they "won't try to take responsibility."


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## WhatInThe (Jun 30, 2015)

This is what worries me about the displaced worker assistance or TAA attached to the recent fast track legislation. There is no way government assistance is going to replace a 20-30 dollar an hour union job with benefits. Just look some of the job placement training now there are record numbers not even in the workforce which says something about the effectiveness of many of these programs.


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## Warrigal (Jul 1, 2015)

Thanks for sharing that Butterfly. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. How are the children getting on now?


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## QuickSilver (Jul 1, 2015)

What you say is absolutely true..  I have first hand knowledge of how difficult it is to get assistance and the hoops one has to jump through.  The notion that these things are passed out like candy comes from people who have not experienced the reality.


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## Butterfly (Jul 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What you say is absolutely true..  I have first hand knowledge of how difficult it is to get assistance and the hoops one has to jump through.  The notion that these things are passed out like candy comes from people who have not experienced the reality.



Absolutely, and people who believe you can easily get benefits, or that they are anywhere near enough to actually live on (even very frugally), have, as someone said above "drunk the kool-aid."  Everyone who believes those things should go work in a poverty law office or a legal aid for the homeless office for about a week, and they'd change their tune.  It is really VERY hard out there.  The truly homeless can't just go out and get a job, any job, like many people can -- they lack an address, a phone number, decent clothes and a way to even clean up.  Who's going to watch the children of a homeless person while s/he looks for work?   And the length of time it takes to get any benefits at all -- you could starve while waiting for them. AND, how are your going to receive them?  most benefits require a bank account for automatic deposit -- how's a homeless person going to open a bank account?  AND, where will the helping agencies send notifications, questions, etc.  It is really hard for a lot of people.  Hell, it was hard for ME, and I had a car, a power of attorney, and knew what I was doing, and we had an address and a phone number.

Easy safety net, my rear end!!


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## Butterfly (Jul 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Thanks for sharing that Butterfly. I'm sorry to hear of your loss. How are the children getting on now?



About as well as can be expected, I guess.  They are living with their older sibling (the one with whom my niece stayed during most of the last of her illness).  He is trying, through an attorney I know, to get appointed as their legal guardian so he can get them into school this fall, get medical care, etc.  It's another huge pile of worms, papers, and hoops, not to mention court system backlogs and delays.  Then we can get what benefits are available for them so he can take care of them.  You have to be a legal guardian to apply for benefits for them, and their mother's benefits died with her, and there's no way the sibling can provide for the children in the long run on what he makes right now.  And he also has a wife and a newborn.  So they are definitely going to need help.   Their mother left nothing for them.  There's no question they'll qualify for some assistance and we'll apply for it as soon as he is their legal guardian.

This demonstrates how people can be thrown into poverty by no fault of their own, and haven't a way to get out.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 1, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Absolutely, and people who believe you can easily get benefits, or that they are anywhere near enough to actually live on (even very frugally), have, as someone said above "drunk the kool-aid."  Everyone who believes those things should go work in a poverty law office or a legal aid for the homeless office for about a week, and they'd change their tune.  It is really VERY hard out there.  The truly homeless can't just go out and get a job, any job, like many people can -- they lack an address, a phone number, decent clothes and a way to even clean up.  Who's going to watch the children of a homeless person while s/he looks for work?   And the length of time it takes to get any benefits at all -- you could starve while waiting for them. AND, how are your going to receive them?  most benefits require a bank account for automatic deposit -- how's a homeless person going to open a bank account?  AND, where will the helping agencies send notifications, questions, etc.  It is really hard for a lot of people.  Hell, it was hard for ME, and I had a car, a power of attorney, and knew what I was doing, and we had an address and a phone number.
> 
> Easy safety net, my rear end!!



This is a straw man that the Right wing has brainwashed people into believing.  People are getting paid for laying on their asses and are living high off the hog and eating lobster on the tax payer dime.   That one and the myth that illegal immigrants are handed a Link card the minute they cross the boarder, and they are taken to the nearest hospital and treated for free... all on the taxpayer's dime.   People, as you can see right here in this forum actually believe all this, and there is no convincing them otherwise.  Throw in some religious and gun issues and  that has been how the GOP  has been able to get people to vote against their own financial interests and those of the average American.  It's really been well planned and thought out..


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## WhatInThe (Jul 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Actually, Bob might be onto something. More people joining unions could counterbalance the clout of greedy employers and heedless politicians. In OZ during the Great Depression there was a group known as the Unemployed Workers Union and as well as being a mutual support association they were also large enough to carry some weight. They were certainly ready and able to turn up at protests and to support striking workers.



Unfortunately unions have been losing their power and numbers for decades in the US. Two straws broke the camels back-The federal air traffic controllers union went on strike and were then fired and permanently replaced in the early 1980s. Ironic over the years that many of their replacements have many of the same complaints. Then the overrated (in the early 1980s) and cheaper Japanese auto imports undercut the US Autoworker who was then considered over paid and outdated. By the mid to late 80s a union was considered overrated and unnecessary. 

The unions got a temporary but insignificant boost after the economic collapse of 2008 with the Occupy Wall Street movement and new administration in office. But their protests turned ugly before educational in many cities.

You can have all the trade unions in the world but there still needs to be work & projects for the trade to be practiced. Which come backs to educating and producing a versatile high school graduate so they can change careers or find different jobs as needed.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 1, 2015)

Just as the statement "we'll always have poor" is true so is it that we will always have those who shrug it off as business as usual instead of at least "feeling" it, caring.


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Anyone who thinks benefits are "handed out like candy" should try to actually get them. Two years ago when my niece (39 year old single mom with two minor children) was diagnosed with terminal cancer, she had to quit her jobs and lost not only her income, but her healthcare coverage as well. No way could she afford COBRA (expensive as hell). Because of the job I used to have, I had some experience and familiarity with getting benefits for people so I took on the job of getting what benefits she was entitled to, in order to keep her and her children from being put out on the street to starve.
> 
> Anybody who thinks this is easy is fooling themselves. As to the healthcare benefits (Medicaid) there was a social worker at the hospital who was wonderful in helping us. There was a heap of paperwork, which of course gets summarily returned to you if anything is blank or isn't filled out to their liking. Usually there isn't an explanation, so you get to just try to figure out what the problem is and resubmit. First we had to get Medicaid for her, and then for the children. We jumped through many, many hoops. AND, we had to apply for Social Security disability for mom, so she could have a little money. THAT required another heap of paperwork, and copies of a zillion medical records. After answering about a million really dumb questions, like why she couldn't work with terminal colon cancer, we were successful, and she got the princely sum of about $700 per month. Try keeping an apartment and clothing for children, plus school supplies, etc., with that! And of course she lost her car. We also applied for food stamps and more papers, documentation, and so forth and we finally got food assistance for them. All of this took somewhere around 8 months, and in the meantime family was helping all we could. She finally had to move in with her oldest son, because there was still no way she could manage on what she was getting, especially as she got weaker. She died early this year, basically in abject poverty.
> 
> ...



Good post, Butterfly.

People who are poor are not all “sitting on their bums” waiting for government handouts (like BobF insinuates).

Sure, there are some slackers, but most people don’t WANT to be poor.  Most people – BY FAR – who are receiving some assistance would rather be able to work and make it on their own.

I know of a couple (in their 40s) who both lost their jobs in 2011.  Neither has been able to find permanent jobs despite constant applying and pounding the pavement.  They lost their house and now live in an apartment. So she cleans houses and he works in a call center (thru a temp service) and delivers pizzas a couple nights a week. No benefits, no extras. They have kids, an older car, and are barely making it.

When people are facing eviction and their cupboards are bare, they don’t want to hear about trade unions  or theories about which direction the wind might blow with regard to the elections and economy.   Those are not solutions.


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## Lon (Jul 1, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Just as the statement "we'll always have poor" is true so is it that we will always have those who shrug it off as business as usual instead of at least "feeling" it, caring.



Well Jim    what do you feel is the proper way to express a feeling and caring for the poor instead of shrugging it off and if most people would agree that in every society it's inevitable that there will be a poor element why not shrug it off if you can't do anything about it? I show my own concern and caring for things that I can directly control or influence and loose no sleep over things I have no control over. If you are hungry I will feed you. If you are freezing I will give you a blanket. Too many people are Bleeding Hearts without solutions.


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

Feeling and caring and talking/debating/pontificating don't amount to much of anything unless accompanied by action.

Many people have connections – i.e., they know someone who knows someone who is in a position to help. If not with money, then maybe with a job referral/offer or a cheap, clean, safe place to stay for awhile, or a bus pass, or even volunteering at a food pantry every now and then.


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> Good post, Butterfly.
> 
> People who are poor are not all “sitting on their bums” waiting for government handouts (like BobF insinuates).
> 
> ...



Absolutely true what I said about some sitting on their bums while collecting funds.   Glad you proved I was right when you posted "Sure, there are some slackers, but most people don’t WANT to be poor."   And that is what I said, not insinuated as you say.

And also, for emergency room entrance to a hospital, you get treated first and then they ask for payments.  It is part of their ritual.   Not just words I have posted.   At least it was the proper way to handle emergency room people prior to Obama care and I have not heard any different since Obama care either.

Emergency room entrance is a good place for all the poor to go to for check out and medicines.   Payment is if possible.


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

BobF said:


> Absolutely true what I said about *some* sitting on their bums while collecting funds. Glad you proved I was right when you posted "Sure, there are *some* slackers, *but most people don’t WANT to be poor*." And that is what I said, not insinuated as you say.



I did not prove you to be right. So now you want to take credit for what I write? Nice try. Look at the bolded part (which you qupted from MY post #76). That is not what you've said; that is what *I* am saying. It's really not all that complicated, BobF.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 1, 2015)

We as a society need to do a  better job with our resources as it relates to hunger and need.  A few billion less spent on War toys would go a long way toward some solutions.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 1, 2015)

Lon said:


> Well Jim    what do you feel is the proper way to express a feeling and caring for the poor instead of shrugging it off and if most people would agree that in every society it's inevitable that there will be a poor element why not shrug it off if you can't do anything about it? I show my own concern and caring for things that I can directly control or influence and loose no sleep over things I have no control over. If you are hungry I will feed you. If you are freezing I will give you a blanket. Too many people are Bleeding Hearts without solutions.



With any luck I will need neither your food or blanket.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 1, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> We as a society need to do a  better job with our resources as it relates to hunger and need.  A few billion less spent on War toys would go a long way toward some solutions.



Some of that hunger is from lack of education. 60 Minutes did a thing on Buffet's son and his philanthropy and he has worked hard to teach some farming in some of the poorest areas. He just didn't give them food he taught them how to grow it. I think it was south America in the story. Point is there a lack of education. One could try to blame their country, community or family for not teaching them farming, planning etc or one can jump right in to the root of the problem-education/training.


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

It's easy to go on and on, day after day, about what the people in Washington and politicians, and Republicans or Democrats "need to do" ...and to tell people to call or write to politicians.  But people who really feel and care, take action themselves....specifically what I said upthread in post 78.


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

Interesting thing about this thread.   All this concern about unemployment and with today's new charts it seems we are near where Obama took over 6 1/2 years ago, Jan 1, 2009.   So we are not doing so bad as some do think.   Today's number could be better and look like those years before his term began.   He did take over as the bad times were emerging and we are now nearly back to those early numbers.    This all seems so much better than the sounds of some of the posts here.

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

*Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey*



YearJanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec20055.35.45.25.25.15.05.04.95.05.05.04.920064.74.84.74.74.64.64.74.74.54.44.54.420074.64.54.44.54.44.64.74.64.74.74.75.020085.04.95.15.05.45.65.86.16.16.56.87.320097.88.38.79.09.49.59.59.69.810.09.99.920109.89.89.99.99.69.49.49.59.59.49.89.320119.29.09.09.19.09.19.09.09.08.88.68.520128.38.38.28.28.28.28.28.07.87.87.77.920138.07.77.57.67.57.57.37.27.27.27.06.720146.66.76.66.26.36.16.26.15.95.75.85.620155.75.55.55.45.5


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> I did not prove you to be right. So now you want to take credit for what I write? Nice try. Look at the bolded part (which you qupted from MY post #76). That is not what you've said; that is what *I* am saying. It's really not all that complicated, BobF.



Exactly what you wrote is just what I had posted at different times.   There are too many sitting on their bums and waiting for funding.   So by you saying the same things I have said in the past you are actually supporting my posts.   You saw them and then said I had insinuated that.   Having a hard time patching the two together I guess.


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## Kadee (Jul 1, 2015)

Can someone explain to an Aussie ..What Food stamps are ???.Oh it obvious they are to buy food.....Are they given to unemployed singles/ families in a type of credit card where they can only be used to pay for food, household bills, without the the person on welfare being given any cash ?

The Australian goverment introduced a card loaded with the welfare payment for people who are unable/ fail  to manage their  payments, by not paying rent, utilities or buying food.I believe anyone placed on the card system is forbidden to buy Alcohol, Cigarettes... I have no dought some find ways to get arround the no cash system to stil enable them buy Drugs,Alcohol, and ciggs..


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

BobF said:


> Exactly what you wrote is just what I had posted at different times. There are too many sitting on their bums and waiting for funding. So by you saying the same things I have said in the past you are actually supporting my posts. You saw them and then said I had insinuated that. Having a hard time patching the two together I guess.



I _never _said there are “too many sitting on their bums”. I never said anything even slightly resembling that. If you will look you will see that I said “Sure there are some slackers”. This is a rather silly argument we are having, BobF, because the proof is right there on the screen in my posts, which have not been edited. And you accuse ME of twisting things? Really?
 

First you say I twist your words.  Now you say I mimic/copy your words and say exactly what you said.  Which is it?  Make up your mind!

But, hey, go ahead and tell yourself whatever you need to. Enjoy. :rofl1:


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> I _never _said there are “too many sitting on their bums”. I never said anything even slightly resembling that. If you will look you will see that I said “Sure there are some slackers”. This is a rather silly argument we are having, BobF, because the proof is right there on the screen in my posts, which have not been edited. And you accuse ME of twisting things? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Best for me is to forget anything you say as you just refuse to agree that you are saying the same thing using different words.

Have a good day.


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## applecruncher (Jul 1, 2015)

Yeah, okay BobF.

(...wow)

:lofl:


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## tnthomas (Jul 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> This is a straw man that the Right wing has brainwashed people into believing.  People are getting paid for laying on their asses and are living high off the hog and eating lobster on the tax payer dime.   That one and the myth that illegal immigrants are handed a Link card the minute they cross the boarder, and they are taken to the nearest hospital and treated for free... all on the taxpayer's dime.   People, as you can see right here in this forum actually believe all this, and there is no convincing them otherwise.  Throw in some religious and gun issues and  that has been how the GOP  has been able to get people to vote against their own financial interests and those of the average American.  It's really been well planned and thought out..



Exactly.   If the GOP would put as much energy and imagination into REALITY based solutions as they do towards deception and warped propaganda...well then they would actually have something worth listening to.


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## Skyking (Jul 1, 2015)

BobF said:


> Interesting thing about this thread.   All this concern about unemployment and with today's new charts it seems we are near where Obama took over 6 1/2 years ago, Jan 1, 2009.   So we are not doing so bad as some do think.   Today's number could be better and look like those years before his term began.   He did take over as the bad times were emerging and we are now nearly back to those early numbers.    This all seems so much better than the sounds of some of the posts here.
> 
> http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
> 
> ...


 THIS IS KOOLAID!  Google "Phony employment numbers" and you'll see how and why these numbers are a load of horse hockey. The principal problem is that they have factored out the people who have given up and left the workplace. It's a  clever way of maintaining a false impression that things aren't so bad. YOUR GOVERNMENT IS PUPOSELY LYING TO YOU to make their failing policies look better. Read up on it, there's a lot there, and from many... many different sources.


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> This is a straw man that the Right wing has brainwashed people into believing.  People are getting paid for laying on their asses and are living high off the hog and eating lobster on the tax payer dime.   That one and the myth that illegal immigrants are handed a Link card the minute they cross the boarder, and they are taken to the nearest hospital and treated for free... all on the taxpayer's dime.   People, as you can see right here in this forum actually believe all this, and there is no convincing them otherwise.  Throw in some religious and gun issues and  that has been how the GOP  has been able to get people to vote against their own financial interests and those of the average American.  It's really been well planned and thought out..



Yes, some do just sit on their butts and demand continued funding.   But not all do that.   It has been written up more than once about these folks and some are in their third generation of doing so.   Your additional BS about them eating lobster is not true as in many cases what they can get with their dole is limited.

This bit about the illegals crossing the border and getting free hospital help is not really true.   Not all are taken to a hospital, but those sick ones are and as is the rule in US hospital emergency rooms, the patient is examined first and only then is payment worried about.    If these folks are taken to the hospital by the border patrol, they are likely to get free help as the doctors determine.

Yes, people on this forum and around the country to actually believe all this and so do a hell of a lot of Democrats as it has been our current government that is keeping the gates open so more illegals can get through and into the US.   Not a joke, just another fact that many of you pretenders will deny.

Have a good night.


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## BobF (Jul 1, 2015)

Skyking said:


> THIS IS KOOLAID!  Google "Phony employment numbers" and you'll see how and why these numbers are a load of horse hockey. The principal problem is that they have factored out the people who have given up and left the workplace. It's a  clever way of maintaining a false impression that things aren't so bad. YOUR GOVERNMENT IS PUPOSELY LYING TO YOU to make their failing policies look better. Read up on it, there's a lot there, and from many... many different sources.



Absolutely true.   But it is the governments position prior to and since Obama took over.   Too bad we can not get our unemployment system revised so it will handle those drop outs, those over runs so no longer eligible.   The official chart is all we have to use.    It will never get as good as it was prior to the ending of the housing building boom of past years.   Some of that caused by allowing just about anyone to order and buy a new house.   But then could not make the payments.   So they had a new house for several months till the legals finally got them put out.


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## Skyking (Jul 1, 2015)

Kadee46 said:


> Can someone explain to an Aussie ..What Food stamps are ???.Oh it obvious they are to buy food.....Are they given to unemployed singles/ families in a type of credit card where they can only be used to pay for food, household bills, without the the person on welfare being given any cash ?
> 
> The Australian goverment introduced a card loaded with the welfare payment for people who are unable/ fail  to manage their  payments, by not paying rent, utilities or buying food.I believe anyone placed on the card system is forbidden to buy Alcohol, Cigarettes... I have no dought some find ways to get arround the no cash system to stil enable them buy Drugs,Alcohol, and ciggs..



In the states it's the same way and some, perhaps many, buy sell and trade them for illegal purposes not intended like drugs, alcohol and smokes. It's a big business and this is the stuff that drives some of our more liberal friends crazy, it makes their Kool-Aid bitter. Drives them into a frenzy.


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## Shalimar (Jul 1, 2015)

I suspect that it is not our liberal friends driven to distraction here, but rather our Captains Of Blame, aficionados of Ayn Randian sociopathy,  forever sailing The Good Ship Self-Righteous round and around and around, the same stagnant, self-serving mud puddle.  Targeting the many for the sins of the few, how democratic. Mental masturbation at it's finest.


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## imp (Jul 1, 2015)

There was a time when I could actually do that! Took intense concentration, the results though were most unusual. However, I have never revealed this before, so details will be withheld!           imp


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## Shalimar (Jul 1, 2015)

Iimp, thanks, I needed a laugh about now. Spat out my alleged cool aid all over my Great Northern Socialist Horde shirt. Lol. Happy birthday Canada!!! Yay CNucks!


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I suspect that it is not our liberal friends driven to distraction here, but rather our Captains Of Blame, aficionados of Ayn Randian sociopathy,  forever sailing The Good Ship Self-Righteous round and around and around, the same stagnant, self-serving mud puddle.  Targeting the many for the sins of the few, how democratic. Mental masturbation at it's finest.



Best response on this thread!!!   hahahahahahahaha   and true!!


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you, QS.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)




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## Skyking (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I suspect that it is not our liberal friends driven to distraction here, but rather our Captains Of Blame, aficionados of Ayn Randian sociopathy,  forever sailing The Good Ship Self-Righteous round and around and around, the same stagnant, self-serving mud puddle.  Targeting the many for the sins of the few, how democratic. Mental masturbation at it's finest.



When I was a child I learned that when someone doesn't have the facts to support themselves they change the subject and resort to name calling. It didn't take long did it? And look at the frenzy of adjectives.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

Skyking said:


> In the states it's the same way and some, perhaps many, buy sell and trade them for illegal purposes not intended like drugs, alcohol and smokes. It's a big business and this is the stuff that drives some of our more liberal friends crazy, it makes their Kool-Aid bitter. Drives them into a frenzy.





Skyking said:


> When I was a child I learned that when someone doesn't have the facts to support themselves they change the subject and resort to name calling. It didn't take long did it? And look at the frenzy of adjectives.



sorta like this?   :laugh:  Are you actually stating FACTS  or just more Right Wing rhetoric as propaganda.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Excuse me, SkyKing, but I was not personally targeting you or any other Poster on this thread. The truly unkind comments on this thread have been directed toward the poor, and the stubborn insistence that they are primarily, in most cases, the arbiters of,their own misfortune. Those that advocate this miissperception, have been treated far less harshly than the individuals they are throwing under the bus for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. I was expressing my opinion through satirical humour, Canadians are prone to that. I used descriptive, perhaps as a poet, lyrical adjectives, but hardly frenzied ones. Nor was I changing the subject. Life is a metaphor, after all.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> sorta like this?   :laugh:  Are you actually stating FACTS  or just more Right Wing rhetoric as propaganda.



And what is so funny about Skyking's honest and truthful comments.    OK, for those helpless and hopeless ones, it will be my turn now for a brainless backlash attack.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> And what is so funny about Skyking's honest and truthful comments.    OK, for those helpless ones, it will be my turn now for a brainless backlash attack.



Oh stop.... you're old news, and always predictable.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

What brainless backlash attack has occurred here? Perhaps I missed it. I sincerely hope, Bob, that you are not suggesting that either QS or myself are lacking in intelligence. That would be name calling.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh stop.... you're old news, and always predictable.



Absolutely.    Part of my membership here is that I get to post my honest ideas just the same as you folks.   But you folks just never allow others the same freedoms that you claim to be your only.   Grow up and get a life.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Absolutely.    Part of my membership here is that I get to post my honest ideas just the same as you folks.   But you folks just never allow others the same freedoms that you claim to be your only.   Grow up and get a life.



Has someone told you that you were not allowed to post?  OR is it just that you don't like to have your views disputed...  Oh.. and that last sentence.... was that REALLY necessary?


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What brainless backlash attack has occurred here? Perhaps I missed it. I sincerely hope, Bob, that you are not suggesting that either QS or myself are lacking in intelligence. That would be name calling.



Just my response to folks like QS who always puts down those that disagree with her ideas.   It is a bad habit of hers to put down all but her very own imitators.

There is the freedom of our societies to think differently, legally, and for reasons.   It does not mean that those that disagree are hateful or wrong and need punished by direct or indirect put down comments.   Some on this forum seem to think they have that special power of personal shame over others.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Just my response to folks like QS who always puts down those that disagree with her ideas.   It is a bad habit of hers to put down all but her very own imitators.
> 
> There is the freedom of our societies to think differently, legally, and for reasons.   It does not mean that those that disagree are hateful or wrong and need punished by direct or indirect put down comments.   Some on this forum seem to think they have that special power of personal shame over others.



No Bob...  I simply disagree... and when anyone disagrees with you.. you think you are being put down or attacked..  Unlike of course what you do.. in telling me to "grow up and get a life"    Now THAT is a put down..  You really need to take a look at your posts..  Sounds to me like you are doing a little projection here.   In case you don't understand...

*Psychological projection* is a theory in *psychology* in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Has someone told you that you were not allowed to post?  OR is it just that you don't like to have your views disputed...  Oh.. and that last sentence.... was that REALLY necessary?



Yes, you deserved it.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> No Bob...  I simply disagree... and when anyone disagrees with you.. you think you are being put down or attacked..  Unlike of course what you do.. in telling me to "grow up and get a life"    Now THAT is a put down..  You really need to take a look at your posts..  Sounds to me like you are doing a little projection here.   In case you don't understand...
> 
> *Psychological projection* is a theory in *psychology* in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.



Disagreement to others is not the problem.   It is the fact of personal attacks and not just pure comments that support different ideas.   Some seem to prefer to attack the other posters and forget to just use facts without the personal attacks.   Which is why I often just do not reply to personal attacks and insults.    Keep the responses on topic and not involve other people as is too often happening on this forum.

You lesson in psychology is something like looking in the mirror for yourself.  

Have a good day.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Yes, you deserved it.



anything you say Bob  lol!!


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

It seems to me that there is a double standard in place on this thread, where some feel justified in making untoward personal remarks, on a you get what you deserve basis,while, at the same time, decrying any criticism of their points of view as attacks. Surely one rule should apply to us all?


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## AZ Jim (Jul 2, 2015)

Oh Gawd!  Who got BobF started?  Here we go with another avalanche of of loosely connected thoughts not based upon anymore than one mans opinion.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 2, 2015)

Skyking said:


> When I was a child I learned that when someone doesn't have the facts to support themselves they change the subject and resort to name calling. It didn't take long did it? And look at the frenzy of adjectives.



Wonder if you'd be kind enough to point out the "name calling" you are alleging here "King"?


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## applecruncher (Jul 2, 2015)

So I guess the discussion about poor people (the topic) is over.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Oh Gawd!  Who got BobF started?  Here we go with another avalanche of of loosely connected thoughts not based upon anymore than one mans opinion.



Just like everyone else responds too.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

applecruncher said:


> So I guess the discussion about poor people (the topic) is over.



About time.    A well overused and distorted discussion too.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> It seems to me that there is a double standard in place on this thread, where some feel justified in making untoward personal remarks, on a you get what you deserve basis,while, at the same time, decrying any criticism of their points of view as attacks. Surely one rule should apply to us all?



Not surprising is it?  It seems that Conservatives and the Right can say the nastiest, mean spirited things about large swaths of people and when called on it, accuse the left of attacking or worse yet persecuting them.   Happens all the time.


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## BobF (Jul 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Not surprising is it?  It seems that Conservatives and the Right can say the nastiest, mean spirited things about large swaths of people and when called on it, accuse the left of attacking or worse yet persecuting them.   Happens all the time.



And who are you to make such a statement.   You are a living example to that sort of attitude to others.


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## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

It seems obvious to me that when those of us who feel compassion for the plight of the poor express our disappointment in the blame the victim mentality (yes most are victims, not lazy, drug addicts, criminals etc.) promoted quite freely on this thread, we get our fingers slapped, verbally speaking. Should we object, we are then targeted as mean-spirited, far-left verbal goons. I have yet to meet any far-left posters on this thread, only moderates. Come to Canada if you wish to see people who are truly socialist in their thinking, ie Green Party. No, I am centre left, not far left. Yet....Lol.


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## Skyking (Jul 2, 2015)

Originally Posted by *Skyking* 

                 In the states it's the same way and some, perhaps many, buy sell and trade them for illegal purposes not intended like drugs, alcohol and smokes. It's a big business and this is the stuff that drives some of our more liberal friends crazy, it makes their Kool-Aid bitter. Drives them into a frenzy. 






 Originally Posted by *Skyking* 

 
When I was a child I learned that when someone doesn't have the facts to support themselves they change the subject and resort to name calling. It didn't take long did it? And look at the frenzy of adjectives.



sorta like this?   :laugh:  Are you actually stating FACTS  or just more Right Wing rhetoric as propaganda.



QS you have taken two separate replies, one an answer to a question about food stamps, and another after a hard core frenzied attack on "we" who think differently than you and displayed them without context. But as a fellow mid westerner I'll keep it simple, "if the shoe fits, wear it" Let the readers read it in context of the thread (not your editing) and make up their own minds.


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## Skyking (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Excuse me, SkyKing, but I was not personally targeting you or any other Poster on this thread. The truly unkind comments on this thread have been directed toward the poor, and the stubborn insistence that they are primarily, in most cases, the arbiters of,their own misfortune. Those that advocate this miissperception, have been treated far less harshly than the individuals they are throwing under the bus for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. I was expressing my opinion through satirical humour, Canadians are prone to that. I used descriptive, perhaps as a poet, lyrical adjectives, but hardly frenzied ones. Nor was I changing the subject. Life is a metaphor, after all.



C'mon now using your words, perhaps those of us who mentally masturbate to throw the helpless under the bus, we Captains of Blame, Aficionados of Ann Randian Sociopathy, forever sailing on the GoodShip Self-Righteous in our self serving mud puddles might just think your tones a bit harsh and frenzied when we commit the sin of all sins...disagreeing with the liberal mantra. While I give you points for being creatively insulting, I can't say that you, or those that depict us as vultures dropping the oppressed over a cliff, deserve applause for this form of verbal discourse. In no way does this rhetoric advance the discussion of the issues here. Instead we are alienating each other and other members of the forum in a way that hurts us all. For my part in this I apologize and wish to turn the rhetoric down and I hope others might do the same.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Actually SkyKing, I believe I was the person with the alleged frenzied adjectives. So perhaps as a member of The  Great Northern Socialist Horde, and denizen of The Dreaded Welfare State,  I should also be ducking the proverbial tossed shoe. Size 7 Aaa please. Lol.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 2, 2015)

Skyking said:


> C'mon now using your words, perhaps those of us who mentally masturbate to throw the helpless under the bus, we Captains of Blame, Aficionados of Ann Randian Sociopathy, forever sailing on the GoodShip Self-Righteous in our self serving mud puddles might just think your tones a bit harsh and frenzied when we commit the sin of all sins...disagreeing with the liberal mantra. While I give you points for being creatively insulting, I can't say that you, or those that depict us as vultures dropping the oppressed over a cliff, deserve applause for this form of verbal discourse. In no way does this rhetoric advance the discussion of the issues here. Instead we are alienating each other and other members of the forum in a way that hurts us all. For my part in this I apologize and wish to turn the rhetoric down and I hope others might do the same.



I know you're new but just so you know, we don't pay by the word here.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Just read your last post, SkyKing. I, too, agree to a truce as it were. It does not help encourage honest debate, if feelings are hurt in the process. Pax from across the great socio-political divide that separates us. I apologize for any hurt I may have caused to any poster on this thread.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Just read your last post, SkyKing. I, too, agree to a truce as it were. It does not help encourage honest debate, if feelings are hurt in the process. Pax from across the great socio-political divide that separates us. I apologize for any hurt I may have caused to any poster on this thread.



*faintly drifting in on the breeze the sound of Kumbaya, the swishing of of olive branches is also heard*


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

How does kumbaya factor into reconciliation??


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## Skyking (Jul 2, 2015)

Shalimar, I always tell my wife "So and so torques me off" To that she replies, "who don't". That's just me. I just like to argue too much. Bad habit. Peace and Kumbaya. `


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Agreed, SkyKing. I am a fiery Celtic redhead, myself. No harm, no foul.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

I wish all our arguments ended this way. Lol


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## Skyking (Jul 2, 2015)

Yeah, they sure don't end like this with my family.


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## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

Mine either, SkyKing. When you have four people trained in university debating clubs, mixed with a healthy dose of Celtic temperament, a certain cooling off period is encouraged, particularly since murder is frowned on! Lol


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## AZ Jim (Jul 2, 2015)

Ok, Ok, Ok....enough with the peace stuff.  Go to neutral corners and when the bells sounds come out swinging.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 2, 2015)

Skyking said:


> In no way does this rhetoric advance the discussion of the issues here. Instead we are alienating each other and other members of the forum in a way that hurts us all. For my part in this I apologize and wish to turn the rhetoric down and I hope others might do the same.





Shalimar said:


> Just read your last post, SkyKing. I, too, agree to a truce as it were. It does not help encourage honest debate, if feelings are hurt in the process. Pax from across the great socio-political divide that separates us. I apologize for any hurt I may have caused to any poster on this thread.



:applause2:


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2015)

"One day a very wealthy father took his son on a trip to the country for the sole purpose of showing his son how it was to be poor. They spent a few days and nights on the farm of what would be considered a very poor family.

After their return from the trip, the father asked his son how he liked the trip. “It was great, Dad,” the son replied. “Did you see how poor people can be?” the father asked. “Oh Yeah,” said the son.

“So what did you learn from the trip?” asked the father. The son answered, “I saw that we have one dog and they had four. We have a pool that reaches to the middle of our garden and they have a creek that has no end. We have imported lanterns in our garden and they have the stars at night. Our patio reaches to the front yard and they have the whole horizon.

We have a small piece of land to live on and they have fields that go beyond our sight. We have servants who serve us, but they serve others.
We buy our food, but they grow theirs. We have walls around our property to protect us, they have friends to protect them.” 

The boy’s father was speechless. Then his son added, “It showed me just how poor we really are.” ~_(I don't know who wrote this)_


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## Don M. (Aug 10, 2015)

Lara said:


> "One day a very wealthy father took his son on a trip to the country for the sole purpose of showing his son how it was to be poor. They spent a few days and nights on the farm of what would be considered a very poor family.
> 
> After their return from the trip, the father asked his son how he liked the trip. “It was great, Dad,” the son replied. “Did you see how poor people can be?” the father asked. “Oh Yeah,” said the son.
> 
> ...



AMEN!  Since we retired to the country, we have developed a whole new appreciation for the rural areas.  Wealth is Not Always represented by the size of a persons bank account.


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## Ameriscot (Aug 10, 2015)

Don M. said:


> AMEN!  Since we retired to the country, we have developed a whole new appreciation for the rural areas.  Wealth is Not Always represented by the size of a persons bank account.



That's for sure!  I saw many very happy people in Uganda who had no money and little possessions.  But they had each other, food, water, clean air, blue skies.


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## rt3 (Aug 10, 2015)

Skyking said:


> C'mon now using your words, perhaps those of us who mentally masturbate to throw the helpless under the bus, we Captains of Blame, Aficionados of Ann Randian Sociopathy, forever sailing on the GoodShip Self-Righteous in our self serving mud puddles might just think your tones a bit harsh and frenzied when we commit the sin of all sins...disagreeing with the liberal mantra. While I give you points for being creatively insulting, I can't say that you, or those that depict us as vultures dropping the oppressed over a cliff, deserve applause for this form of verbal discourse. In no way does this rhetoric advance the discussion of the issues here. Instead we are alienating each other and other members of the forum in a way that hurts us all. For my part in this I apologize and wish to turn the rhetoric down and I hope others might do the same.



lol I love it--  passive-aggressive with a lingering after taste of sarcasm.


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## rt3 (Aug 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> It seems obvious to me that when those of us who feel compassion for the plight of the poor express our disappointment in the blame the victim mentality (yes most are victims, not lazy, drug addicts, criminals etc.) promoted quite freely on this thread, we get our fingers slapped, verbally speaking. Should we object, we are then targeted as mean-spirited, far-left verbal goons. I have yet to meet any far-left posters on this thread, only moderates. Come to Canada if you wish to see people who are truly socialist in their thinking, ie Green Party. No, I am centre left, not far left. Yet....Lol.





lol, love it. Passive-aggressive with just lingering after taste of sarcasm 


met the Canadian socialists - your right about that.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 10, 2015)

rt3 said:


> lol, love it. Passive-aggressive with just lingering after taste of sarcasm
> 
> 
> met the Canadian socialists - your right about that.



I'm glad you and a couple others are here, it  is rare that I get a chance to feel superior.


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## rt3 (Aug 10, 2015)

No difference, between, illusions, delusions.


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## QuickSilver (Aug 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> View attachment 20345I'm glad you and a couple others are here, it  is rare that I get a chance to feel superior.




You and me both Jim...   These last few threads have me feeling pretty good about myself.


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## mitchezz (Aug 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You and me both Jim...   These last few threads have me feeling pretty good about myself.



I feel like Mother Theresa.


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## Shalimar (Aug 10, 2015)

Mitchezz, we're twins!


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## Cookie (Aug 10, 2015)

Speaking of Mother Theresa, seeing the poorest of the poor, beggars with leprosy in India really opened my eyes as to how wealthy we are here in the west, even tho we may struggle to make ends meet.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 10, 2015)

True Cookie, no matter how poorly any of us do, someone somewhere has it much much worse.


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