# Boston Bomber is guilty!  Let's hang him, inject him, fry him, shoot him or gas him!



## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Who cares if he is just a teen?  How many teens have we lost in wars?  Kill us, we kill you.  Are you with me on this?  You should be...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

How many teens have you killed in wars?
Just asking.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Being a born coward I joined a branch of the service that had the smallest chance of having to kill or be killed...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

Not you personally, you muppet! :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Oh, you mean in our establishing world hegemony, millions, billions?  But, remember, God was on our side, so they had to die...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

That's what the bombers in Boston said. Funny that.
Do you suppose the two statements are linked?


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

there is only one true God and the rest are ersatz...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

Care to name Her?


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hillary...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

:lofl: Double muppet !!!


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hmm, OK, Oprah?


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

Which one is the ersatz one?


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hmm, let me try again, Fergie...?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

I think the last time Massachusetts executed someone was in 1947.... just sayin'


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

He was tried in a Federal courthouse so he is subject to the death penalty...


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## SifuPhil (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm with you, Ralphy - light him up!


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes, we are all hoping that the jury decides to...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think the last time Massachusetts executed someone was in 1947.... just sayin'



  I'm hoping he gets the death penalty however, like I said... don't count on it..


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I think that women are more apt not to go for the death penalty.  With you in favor of it I like the odds of it happening...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

I never said I was opposed to the death penalty in ALL cases..   If there is proof beyond question...  DNA or otherwise.. like in this case, and the crime is heinous.. as this was... I say go for it.   I'm just  saying, don't count your chickens in Massachusetts.   The jury must be unanimous... all it takes is one dissenter, and he will get life.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yes, but that one dissenter would most likely be a woman.  Surely you agree...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

oh stop


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2015)

What is the point of capital punishment, anyway? It certainly does not work as a deterrent and not all of us are comfortable with killing people regardless of what they have done. For me it is a slippery slope. I just can't get my head around righteous murder.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Imagine if he hadn't got caught, he could have gone on to kill and maim more.  And, QS, here it is, a woman who wouldn't go for the death penalty...


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## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

This young man is hoping to die. He wants to be a martyr.
It won't deter others with the same mentality.

20 years on a chain gang might work better.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

No chain gangs here anymore.  More likely, cable TV and Internet service would be provided...


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy, you forget my country of origin. Opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with gender for Canadians. It is one of the few subjects, along with abortion, that tend to make many of us go fairly hardcore when challenged.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Imagine if he hadn't got caught, he could have gone on to kill and maim more.  And, QS, here it is, a woman who wouldn't go for the death penalty...



What does the gender have to do with it?  You keep harping on that?   Would this be a better country if only MEN had any authority?   OMG....


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Gender has a lot to do with it.  Lawyers look at gender during jury selection depending upon what the nature if the case...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Gender has a lot to do with it.  Lawyers look at gender during jury selection depending upon what the nature if the case...



Lawyers look at a lot of things when selecting a jury.. and the opposing legal team has the right to object or accept a juror.  SO.. what's your point..?  Making sure this is an all male jury?


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy has outdated ideas around how women think. Sad, but hardly surprising in some men of a certain age. See, I can typecast people too!


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It depends on whether they want more sympathy or not for their client...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you ever served on a jury Ralphy?   I have..  not a murder case with capital punishment, but on a Federal case with a penalty option of many years in prison.  It's really easy to think about what you would do..  and even with facts... it's quite another thing to know that your vote could send a person away for much of their lives.   I would imagine it would be even harder to know you are the potential deciding vote to ending the life of another human... no matter what they have done.  I know in the end most people do what the law requires though... but just a little food for thought..  It's not easy.

Before you ask... and I know you will..  IF I were on this jury, I BELIEVE I would vote for the death penalty..  It would be hard, but I think I would.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 9, 2015)

A judge once told me that I should take out lottery tickets because I had got called for jury duty so many times.  Certainly an interesting experience.  And you proved my case by your last response which most men wouldn't make...


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2015)

I think it depends on where 'most men' live, unless one subscribes to some form of universal male consciousness. The majority of the males of my acquaintance no longer inhabit the trees. Perhaps your experience is somewhat different?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> A judge once told me that I should take out lottery tickets because I had got called for jury duty so many times.  Certainly an interesting experience.  And you proved my case by your last response which most men wouldn't make...



Oh BS.....  There is always a world of difference in what one THINKS they would do.. and what they actually feel and do with the actual experience.  To blindly state you know exactly how you would react is foolhardy IMO... and the times I was so cocksure about what my actions would be usually proved me wrong.   I can only say what I THINK would do but follow it with the qualifier of "but I have never been in that situation"..


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## Glinda (Apr 9, 2015)

I worked in the legal system for over 40 years.  Believe me, lawyers analyze and agonize over who should be on the jury and there are companies they sometimes hire specifically to help them decide who their ideal juror will be. I also served on a jury for a murder trial in 1993.  The jury decided the guilt of the defendants but not the punishment.  It was three guys who killed a man they didn't even know because they were bored and thought it would be fun.  Had I been entrusted with the punishment phase, I believe I would have voted for the death sentence.  The judge opted for life imprisonment.  As for the Boston Bomber, I believe he should receive the death sentence and I am female.  Most women I know agree with me.


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## chic (Apr 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Who cares if he is just a teen? How many teens have we lost in wars? Kill us, we kill you. Are you with me on this? You should be...



I feel that he deserves the death penalty because he is a terrorist and terrorists need to learn that if they come to this country and maim and kill Americans, their lives are forfeit. It's just that simple.


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## Cookie (Apr 9, 2015)

I'll leave this question for those who live in a country which still uses the death penalty. We don't have it in Canada, nor is used in many many countries anymore. Why did they abolish it, you may ask.  You might also want to ask yourselves honestly if you want revenge or justice?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 9, 2015)

Interesting...   Revenge/vengence.....   Or justice.. something to think about..   Our legal system is called the JUSTICE department..  It's supposed to be built on Justice..  I guess it depends what you believe constitutes it.


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## koala (Apr 9, 2015)

I do not believe in capital punishment no matter how bad the crime. Rope, needle,electricity, bullet or gas is not punishment. This is too quick and the easy way out. Also who has the right to end a life.
However special prisons should be constructed on an Island say, to put in place, proper hard punishment for the term of the natural life without any fancy frills provided for murder or any current capital punishment laws. No television, visitors,education, basic food,work for survival and prison to be self-sufficient, work place with income from a service that is carried out to keep the place rolling. 
When people accept that if caught life will not be beer and skittles, then they may think first.


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## Jingles (Apr 9, 2015)

I've always wondered if they should use the likes of this 'animal' to test new drugs on, instead of innocent animals.
I realize that raises some ethical questions, but for certain kind of drugs, I think it could work.


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## Shalimar (Apr 10, 2015)

I think, for me, I don't know a way of reducing someone else's humanity, regardless of what heinous crimes they may have committed, without also reducing my own. I am not prepared to do that.


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## Elyzabeth (Apr 10, 2015)

Fab !!!!!!

iN REPLY TO THE STATEMENT THAT HE IS BEING TRIED IN A fEDERAL COURT,

 AND THEREFORE IT IS POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO GET THE DEATH PENALTY..

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TRUE OR NOT.. 

BUT HE DESERVES THE DEATHE PENALTY !!!


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Glad you are not making the decision.  There are more women on the jury than men, so...


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## Debby (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm with Shalimar on this.  I think when we copy the actions of the perpetrator we become like them.  We just use different justifications.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 10, 2015)

We wouldn't have to be paying for these dangerous people in prisons for life if we would give them their just punishment.


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## koala (Apr 10, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> We wouldn't have to be paying for these dangerous people in prisons for life if we would give them their just punishment.



Are you saying use capital punishment instead of prison ??


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 10, 2015)

Yes I am. Just punishment for the crime.  Forgiveness is a good thing yes...but consequences are still due. You slap these murders (all of them,) on the hand, and then pay to keep them alive for life. What about the victims.?


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 10, 2015)

koala said:


> Are you saying use capital punishment instead of prison ??



Besides  that he would do it again.  What we pay for prisoners we could invest in our kids. And the medical field to help fight cancer. And other fatal diseases.


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## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2015)

HAHAHA, Dame Warrigal, good one!


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## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2015)

Ralphy, I DON'T agree that women are always softer on the accused that men.  I worked in the legal system for some 40 years, and I never saw that.  Particularly where there is a heinous crime that killed and maimed people, women can often be tougher than men.  Perhaps in a case where there was doubt, but in this case there is no doubt, and lives, even of those who survived have been irretrievably shattered, and even children killed (a 10 year old boy was disemboweled and basically shredded).  One generalization I can agree with is that women generally do not feel very sorry for people blow up children.

I believe the death penalty is appropriate in this case.  I'm not a big supporter of the death penalty, but in the case of something like this, I do.


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## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2015)

Ralphy, I DON'T agree that women are always softer on the accused that men.  I worked in the legal system for some 40 years, and I never saw that.  Particularly where there is a heinous crime that killed and maimed people, women can often be tougher than men.  Perhaps in a case where there was doubt, but in this case there is no doubt, and lives, even of those who survived have been irretrievably shattered, and even children killed (a 10 year old boy was disemboweled and basically shredded).  One generalization I can agree with is that women generally do not feel very sorry for people blow up children.

I believe the death penalty is appropriate in this case.  I'm not a big supporter of the death penalty, but in the case of something like this, I do.


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## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2015)

Besides, the jury here is a death qualified jury, which means there are no jurors who are categorically opposed to the death penalty.  They've had to state that they would be able to impose the death penalty in an appropriate case.  

I don't think too many cases are more appropriate than this one.


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## Butterfly (Apr 10, 2015)

OOPS!  a message I posted above is posted twice.  Don't know what I did wrong, but sorry!


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> Besides  that he would do it again.  What we pay for prisoners we could invest in our kids. And the medical field to help fight cancer. And other fatal diseases.



He could not do it again if locked away till he died!!!!!!

That's punishment.


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## Debby (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> Yes I am. Just punishment for the crime.  Forgiveness is a good thing yes...but consequences are still due. You slap these murders (all of them,) on the hand, and then pay to keep them alive for life. What about the victims.?




Will killing them bring back their victims or just add to the list of victims?


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> Will killing them bring back their victims or just add to the list of victims?



They are not victims ,they would be the result of the justice for their victims. These two young men purposefully set these bombs behind an innocent 8 year old boy and killed him and his sister seriously injured. How many more were killed or very seriously injured? And you believe he has the right to life? Really? They would still be doing it had they not been caught , one dead one waiting justice. If it was your grandson or daughters or sons or spouses would you still think the same?  They knew exactly what they were doing and why they did it.  Like I said just punishment for the crime.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

koala said:


> He could not do it again if locked away till he died!!!!!
> 
> That's punishment.




I am saying if he wasn't locked up now he would do it again. For people to pay for these heartless murders (all of them, especially those who admit they would do it again), don't deserve to be kept alive. You can forgive indeed , but the just punishment must be carried out. Would you want to feed him and give him free medical and anything else he wants or needs if it was your son, daughter, husband, wife, grandchildren?


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## Shalimar (Apr 11, 2015)

I am not confident in my ability to decide who,has the right to live and who does not. I am not an omnipotent being, and do not wish to,carry that responsibility/guilt. I do, however have no compunction about incarcerating murderers for the duration of their lives. I choose punishment/justice, over revenge. I am not a murderer, and cold blooded executions fill this Canadian with horror. Violence is not the answer.


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## Don M. (Apr 11, 2015)

Capital Punishment and the Death Penalty are mute issues.  Warehousing criminals, and endless court appeals are Big Business, which supports thousands of high paid lawyers, and thousands more people operating our jails.  The Criminal Justice system in the U.S. is a 300 billion dollar a year Business.  Even if a death sentence is handed down by a judge/jury, that merely starts a 15 year long process which ultimately costs the taxpayers well over a million dollars.  On average, it costs over $40,000 a year to keep a person in prison....even on a minor non-violent charge.  

Just think how many good honest people this amount of money could help.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Capital Punishment and the Death Penalty are mute issues.  Warehousing criminals, and endless court appeals are Big Business, which supports thousands of high paid lawyers, and thousands more people operating our jails.  The Criminal Justice system in the U.S. is a 300 billion dollar a year Business.  Even if a death sentence is handed down by a judge/jury, that merely starts a 15 year long process which ultimately costs the taxpayers well over a million dollars.  On average, it costs over $40,000 a year to keep a person in prison....even on a minor non-violent charge.
> 
> Just think how many good honest people this amount of money could help.



Right Don M.. And I don't think they should be able to appeal either. They are guilty . Someone said he wants to die so he could be a martyr.....well the people he killed wanted to live.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I am not confident in my ability to decide who,has the right to live and who does not. I am not an omnipotent being, and do not wish to,carry that responsibility/guilt. I do, however have no compunction about incarcerating murderers for the duration of their lives. I choose punishment/justice, over revenge. I am not a murderer, and cold blooded executions fill this Canadian with horror. Violence is not the answer.



So then do you have the same feelings towards the innocent soldiers who were beheaded and the children that were murdered?


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## Shalimar (Apr 11, 2015)

Of course, I do. Killing is wrong. Execution is wrong. Both are an abomination. Let us agree to disagree, lest this discussion become heated. Peace be with you, and yours.


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## Debby (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> Right Don M.. And I don't think they should be able to appeal either. They are guilty . .......




This sort of statement strikes me as a blanket generalization and it brought to mind, the numbers of people who were sentenced to death and then were exonerated.  What about them?  Since 1973, 152 people have been rescued from death row.  That's 152 people, maybe just like you, just like me, who were first convicted of a terrible crime and then had charges dismissed or acquitted.  

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row

152 people who were grateful that they had opportunity to appeal before the state acted like they had been accused of acting.


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## Debby (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> So then do you have the same feelings towards the innocent soldiers who were beheaded and the children that were murdered?



Are soldiers 'innocent'?  Their job is to kill people so how can they be innocent in the strictest sense of the word?


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Of course, I do. Killing is wrong. Execution is wrong. Both are an abomination. Let us agree to disagree, lest this discussion become heated. Peace be with you, and yours.



Agreed to disagree. And peace be you also, I wouldn't let it get heated Shalimar....people are entitled to their own beliefs.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> Are soldiers 'innocent'?  Their job is to kill people so how can they be innocent in the strictest sense of the word?



Soldiers are not "innocent" per say as being clean of all sin. But they did not deserve to be beheaded at the hands of these people and the children , they were innocent. Soldiers are trained to do a job, to defend our country. I am certain they do not enjoy killing anyone . But they do it for your freedom , freedom for us all. Freedom is not free.  All wars in Biblical times were controlled by God and He is Still in Control. We have to have protection. And this is all God's plan ....but you believe what you want. That is free


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> This sort of statement strikes me as a blanket generalization and it brought to mind, the numbers of people who were sentenced to death and then were exonerated.  What about them?  Since 1973, 152 people have been rescued from death row.  That's 152 people, maybe just like you, just like me, who were first convicted of a terrible crime and then had charges dismissed or acquitted.
> 
> http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row
> 
> 152 people who were grateful that they had opportunity to appeal before the state acted like they had been accused of acting.




That has not gone out of my thoughts believe me. I I do think It is a shame some are convicted wrongly. The system is so broken it isn't funny. And a lot of people are set up and wrongly convicted because they just have to have someone to pin it on, others have too much money so it is easy to set someone up in their place.  A lot depends on the attorneys as well. The system is just plain broken. The court system and government is corrupt.
And how many times have you seen one set free , then later admitting to the crime, and nothing can be done about it because of the double jeopardy clause.  I was even on a jury duty once and the man was totally guilty, they the jurors couldn't get along and it was a hung jury the man went free and he turned around and went and finished the job he started. He killed the main man he was after two weeks.............
I am not going to get into an argument  with you or anyone else.  I just simply answered the thread like everyone else.   SO please don't turn it into something it isn't. Thank you


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> Are soldiers 'innocent'?  Their job is to kill people so how can they be innocent in the strictest sense of the word?



Ps and besides that the soldiers are not the warped, twisted, people that these murders are. The murders are people who love and enjoy killing just because they can. There is a big difference there.  If the soldiers didn't voluntarily sign up to defend the country they love, where would that leave us? Huh?


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## Debby (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> Ps and besides that the soldiers are not the warped, twisted, people that these murders are. The murders are people who love and enjoy killing just because they can. There is a big difference there.  If the soldiers didn't voluntarily sign up to defend the country they love, where would that leave us? Huh?




I agree that there's a difference between soldiers and murderers who kill for the joy of it.

I'm not saying they aren't doing a good thing when they are protecting their countries from attack, but they are in the business of 'killing'  aren't they?  And there's no shortage of soldier aggression stories or stories of soldiers that are horribly traumatized by the things that they've done or seen other soldiers doing plus all the other horrors of war, so innocence is really the wrong word to use in the same sentence as 'soldier'.  Innocent is the little child playing on the floor, innocent is the woman going about her business and not troubling anyone, innocent is the old lady who spends time with her grandchildren, or innocent is the homeless man who's just trying to survive on the streets, but for soldiers,  well seems to me, in the context that you've used it, maybe 'captured soldiers' would have been more accurate.  After all, if he got caught by ISIS, then he was there to kill ISIS fighters right?   I'll bet if you checked the definition of innocence you wouldn't find any mention of 'killing'.  

Now if you'd referenced the 'innocent humanitarian aid worker' that would be more accurate because that worker isn't there with the intention of killing anyone.


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## Debby (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> That has not gone out of my thoughts believe me. I I do think It is a shame some are convicted wrongly. The system is so broken it isn't funny. And a lot of people are set up and wrongly convicted because they just have to have someone to pin it on, others have too much money so it is easy to set someone up in their place.  A lot depends on the attorneys as well. The system is just plain broken. The court system and government is corrupt.
> And how many times have you seen one set free , then later admitting to the crime, and nothing can be done about it because of the double jeopardy clause.  I was even on a jury duty once and the man was totally guilty, they the jurors couldn't get along and it was a hung jury the man went free and he turned around and went and finished the job he started. He killed the main man he was after two weeks.............
> I am not going to get into an argument  with you or anyone else.  I just simply answered the thread like everyone else.   SO please don't turn it into something it isn't. Thank you




Who's arguing?  I'm not, just offering my opinion of the statements you've made and pointing out what I see as flaws in the proclamation of 'no appeals, hang 'em all' sort of thing.  And while the system might be broken, that doesn't change the fact that 152 innocent people over the past 30 years would be dead if that was the prevailing practise.  Could be anyone here next time or someone you love......my husband was once picked up when he was in his early 20's, for armed robbery or something serious. He was walking down the street a couple blocks from wherever the 'thing' had happened and a passing cop saw him and picked him up.   Total case of mistaken identity and the police released him an hour or two later, but what if whatever witness who described him, stuck by their story, it went to trial and he was found guilty for something he didn't do?   That's how easy it can happen.

Or I read today where a BC teacher is suing the school board and an investigator for ruining his reputation because a student lied about him molesting her.   She's since recanted the entire story and the whole incident  was shown to be a duplicate of a favourite cop show, Law and Order, SVU.   Now what if he'd been accused of killing someone (falsely) and your philosophy prevailed in his case?  His wife would be visiting a cemetery instead of a lawyers office.

These are the things that we need to remember when we talk about crime and punishment.  It isn't all black and white, we're humans and there is an ocean of grey there to consider.  And I'm sorry if I've offended you, never meant to do that. I just thought we were 'chatting'.


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> I am saying if he wasn't locked up now he would do it again. For people to pay for these heartless murders (all of them, especially those who admit they would do it again), don't deserve to be kept alive. You can forgive indeed , but the just punishment must be carried out. Would you want to feed him and give him free medical and anything else he wants or needs if it was your son, daughter, husband, wife, grandchildren?



You are not thinking clearly because you are too close to the crime.Capital punishment and he is gone instantly no pain or suffering for what he has done.You only want him *removed without punishment*.
There needs to be special prisons where he can be held till he dies naturally where he has to do hard labor and suffer every day as punishment for what he has done. No visitors, tobacco, education, television, radio, letters, no contact with the outside world, no special food, just a lot of very hard work in a self sufficient prison farm.  
Up each day early, milk cows, get meals, plough fields, raise cattle, plus anything that needs to be done to survive.The only need for staff would be rough and tumble guards as prisioners would have to do everything.This would be long term punishment, not 30 seconds of capital punishment rubbish, the easy way out. I know which one he would choose.


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby........I am with you, capital punishment is not punishment, it is the easy way out.Don't lower to their levil but punish them till the day they die naturally die.


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> They are not victims ,they would be the result of the justice for their victims. These two young men purposefully set these bombs behind an innocent 8 year old boy and killed him and his sister seriously injured. How many more were killed or very seriously injured? And you believe he has the right to life? Really? They would still be doing it had they not been caught , one dead one waiting justice. If it was your grandson or daughters or sons or spouses would you still think the same?  They knew exactly what they were doing and why they did it.  Like I said just punishment for the crime.



You are talking justice, not punishment. Locked away till death is suffering.


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I am not confident in my ability to decide who,has the right to live and who does not. I am not an omnipotent being, and do not wish to,carry that responsibility/guilt. I do, however have no compunction about incarcerating murderers for the duration of their lives. I choose punishment/justice, over revenge. I am not a murderer, and cold blooded executions fill this Canadian with horror. Violence is not the answer.



Correct


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> This sort of statement strikes me as a blanket generalization and it brought to mind, the numbers of people who were sentenced to death and then were exonerated.  What about them?  Since 1973, 152 people have been rescued from death row.  That's 152 people, maybe just like you, just like me, who were first convicted of a terrible crime and then had charges dismissed or acquitted.
> 
> http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row
> 
> 152 people who were grateful that they had opportunity to appeal before the state acted like they had been accused of acting.



Yes I agree but this is a different case


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## Don M. (Apr 11, 2015)

There have certainly been a number of incidents where someone was falsely imprisoned, and every attempt Must be made to prove a persons innocent or guilt.  However, when there are multiple credible witnesses, all the evidence is irrefutable, the murderer even admits his guilt, and now, with modern technology, he is caught on camera committing the act, I see no need to expend heroic measures trying to "save" him.  The only decision that needs to be made, in such a case, is to determine his punishment....life without parole, or execution.  

I also agree totally with Koala on how these criminals should be treated.  Instead of warehousing them in a climate controlled environment, where they have nothing to do but sit around and sponge off the taxpayers, and/or plot their next crime, or join some prison gang...they should be required to work their butts off for every meal they get.  Prison, in its present form, is hardly any incentive for them to change their ways.  The ONLY prison I've heard of in recent years that makes any sense is the one being run by that Arizona Sheriff...Joe Arapio(sp).  I would imagine that he gets a minimum of repeat offenders.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Debby said:


> I agree that there's a difference between soldiers and murderers who kill for the joy of it.
> 
> I'm not saying they aren't doing a good thing when they are protecting their countries from attack, but they are in the business of 'killing'  aren't they?  And there's no shortage of soldier aggression stories or stories of soldiers that are horribly traumatized by the things that they've done or seen other soldiers doing plus all the other horrors of war, so innocence is really the wrong word to use in the same sentence as 'soldier'.  Innocent is the little child playing on the floor, innocent is the woman going about her business and not troubling anyone, innocent is the old lady who spends time with her grandchildren, or innocent is the homeless man who's just trying to survive on the streets, but for soldiers,  well seems to me, in the context that you've used it, maybe 'captured soldiers' would have been more accurate.  After all, if he got caught by ISIS, then he was there to kill ISIS fighters right?   I'll bet if you checked the definition of innocence you wouldn't find any mention of 'killing'.
> 
> Now if you'd referenced the 'innocent humanitarian aid worker' that would be more accurate because that worker isn't there with the intention of killing anyone.




Well you know they are not "in the business for killing" they are there to try and stop the enemy. And if the enemy is pointing a gun at you,  you gonna let him shoot you or are you gonna shoot first?  Of course they come back with PTSD you think it is a picnic over there? 
And chances are if he was caught by ISIS , ISIS was there first. I think you should be ashamed to speak of the soldiers the way you do. No one likes war......NO ONE.   Do you know how many parents, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters , etc...you have offended terribly bad?  This conversation is over with me and you ought to  be  more thankful for the military. You should thank God they volunteer their very life for you. 

And no one is "innocent" , we are all born in sin Going back to Genesis. Ok?


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> There have certainly been a number of incidents where someone was falsely imprisoned, and every attempt Must be made to prove a persons innocent or guilt.  However, when there are multiple credible witnesses, all the evidence is irrefutable, the murderer even admits his guilt, and now, with modern technology, he is caught on camera committing the act, I see no need to expend heroic measures trying to "save" him.  The only decision that needs to be made, in such a case, is to determine his punishment....life without parole, or execution.
> 
> I also agree totally with Koala on how these criminals should be treated.  Instead of warehousing them in a climate controlled environment, where they have nothing to do but sit around and sponge off the taxpayers, and/or plot their next crime, or join some prison gang...they should be required to work their butts off for every meal they get.  Prison, in its present form, is hardly any incentive for them to change their ways.  The ONLY prison I've heard of in recent years that makes any sense is the one being run by that Arizona Sheriff...Joe Arapio(sp).  I would imagine that he gets a minimum of repeat offenders.



Don I agree. Punishment is punishment, not a quick trip out the back door and buried and the country picks up the bill.
I believe all prisons need to be worked by prisoners at different levels according to the crime they committed. Not looked after in a 5 star hotel being further educated, televisions and treated like princesses and princes etc. Do-gooders also need to get out of the way with regard to prisons.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2015)

Revenge, punishment? How about reform?

Currently there are a couple of Australians on death row in Indonesia for drug smuggling.
Their end is very close now, after 10 years of waiting.

The sadly ironic thing is that both of then have actually been reformed but that makes no difference to the sentence.
What they are hoping for is for the sentence to be commuted to life in prison but it's not going to happen.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

don m. said:


> capital punishment and the death penalty are mute issues.  Warehousing criminals, and endless court appeals are big business, which supports thousands of high paid lawyers, and thousands more people operating our jails.  The criminal justice system in the u.s. Is a 300 billion dollar a year business.  Even if a death sentence is handed down by a judge/jury, that merely starts a 15 year long process which ultimately costs the taxpayers well over a million dollars.  On average, it costs over $40,000 a year to keep a person in prison....even on a minor non-violent charge.
> 
> Just think how many good honest people this amount of money could help.




thank you don m.


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Revenge, punishment? How about reform?
> 
> Currently there are a couple of Australians on death row in Indonesia for drug smuggling.
> Their end is very close now, after 10 years of waiting.
> ...



Reform is good also, some have truly changed, but more probably go through the motions to help them get lesser punishment and maybe even released. But what I don't get about this whole stupid thread is why are so many worried about the comfort (or real prison life which I agree with Koala and Don M on), No body seems to care about the people murdered , children included, and the hell the families have to live with the rest of their lives. They can be reformed that is all good but there are still the consequences of their crimes.  
I think a drug smuggler is more likely to be serious about changing his life  , but not so much a murder. It just depends on the circumstances of what they did while smuggling Dame, did they kill , what? Like I keep saying too the system is horribly broken , those deserving harsh punishment don't get what is right, and others get too much.  But it don't matter what I think, ultimately God will be the final Judge. He is the One we all should fear. And with this said I guess I will bow out of this thread.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2015)

Of course people care. When the Bali 9 (drug smugglers) were arrested I was very angry about the damage they were going to inflict on our Australian youth and I had no sympathy for them at all. Only two of the nine were sentenced to death and my attitude then was that if that is Indonesian law, then so be it because they knew what the deal was if they were to be caught. I cared a lot more for the potential victims than I did for the criminals.

However, ten years down the track there has been genuine reform. One has found redemption through art. He is a model prisoner and conducts art classes for other prisoners. The prison authorities have testified to his value in the prison. The other has studied and is now a Christian pastor, also an asset to the prison. IMO they are not faking and they expect to die while at the same time hoping to live. I hope they will be reprieved too. 

It's not about caring versus not caring. We can care for the criminal as well as the victim. WWJS? WWJD?


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## lovemylittleboy (Apr 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Of course people care. When the Bali 9 (drug smugglers) were arrested I was very angry about the damage they were going to inflict on our Australian youth and I had no sympathy for them at all. Only two of the nine were sentenced to death and my attitude then was that if that is Indonesian law, then so be it because they knew what the deal was if they were to be caught. I cared a lot more for the potential victims than I did for the criminals.
> 
> However, ten years down the track there has been genuine reform. One has found redemption through art. He is a model prisoner and conducts art classes for other prisoners. The prison authorities have testified to his value in the prison. The other has studied and is now a Christian pastor, also an asset to the prison. IMO they are not faking and they expect to die while at the same time hoping to live. I hope they will be reprieved too.
> 
> It's not about caring versus not caring. We can care for the criminal as well as the victim. WHJS?



Well Dame it is unfortunate and good all at the same time for those who truly seen the wrong road they were on and turned  away.  Yes we can care about them to in the spiritual sense. Praying they would find the Lord and seeing from what you have said they did. So while they still must pay for what they had done in the past they can look forward to a new life with the Father. What could be better than that?


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## koala (Apr 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Revenge, punishment? How about reform?
> 
> Currently there are a couple of Australians on death row in Indonesia for drug smuggling.
> Their end is very close now, after 10 years of waiting.
> ...



Dame yes reform......but before that it is not capital punishment.People need punishment not a go easy card by capital punishment as he is off the hook and gone.
The order.......crime, punishment and then if possible reform. However this person should get an end of  life sentence as I do not feel he would reform.


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## Butterfly (Apr 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> There have certainly been a number of incidents where someone was falsely imprisoned, and every attempt Must be made to prove a persons innocent or guilt.  However, when there are multiple credible witnesses, all the evidence is irrefutable, the murderer even admits his guilt, and now, with modern technology, he is caught on camera committing the act, I see no need to expend heroic measures trying to "save" him.  The only decision that needs to be made, in such a case, is to determine his punishment....life without parole, or execution.
> 
> I also agree totally with Koala on how these criminals should be treated.  Instead of warehousing them in a climate controlled environment, where they have nothing to do but sit around and sponge off the taxpayers, and/or plot their next crime, or join some prison gang...they should be required to work their butts off for every meal they get.  Prison, in its present form, is hardly any incentive for them to change their ways.  The ONLY prison I've heard of in recent years that makes any sense is the one being run by that Arizona Sheriff...Joe Arapio(sp).  I would imagine that he gets a minimum of repeat offenders.



Well, according to sources on the net (CBS), if this guy gets life, he will in all likelihood be sent to the Supermax, ADX Florence, Colorado, which has been described by a former warden as a "cleaner version of hell."    He would spend 23 hours a day locked down in isolation in his soundproof cell, with no human contact.  His 87 square foot cell would contain a bed, an immovable desk and stool, and open shower and toilet, controlled by guards.  His food would be delivered through an opening by guards, whom he would never see.  He would never have contact with other prisoners.  For at least the first few years, he would have no TV, though a black and white one might be earned by good behavior.  No internet, no contact with other prisoners or guards.  He would be let out an hour a day for exercise into a big room, all cement, with a 4 inch window at the top.  He would be in there alone.

Doesn't exactly sound like a "Club Fed," does it.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2015)

It actually sounds like a modern version of something out of a Victor Hugo novel.


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## chic (Apr 12, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Well, according to sources on the net (CBS), if this guy gets life, he will in all likelihood be sent to the Supermax, ADX Florence, Colorado, which has been described by a former warden as a "cleaner version of hell." He would spend 23 hours a day locked down in isolation in his soundproof cell, with no human contact. His 87 square foot cell would contain a bed, an immovable desk and stool, and open shower and toilet, controlled by guards. His food would be delivered through an opening by guards, whom he would never see. He would never have contact with other prisoners. For at least the first few years, he would have no TV, though a black and white one might be earned by good behavior. No internet, no contact with other prisoners or guards. He would be let out an hour a day for exercise into a big room, all cement, with a 4 inch window at the top. He would be in there alone.
> 
> Doesn't exactly sound like a "Club Fed," does it.



If that's true, I'm surprised he fights the death penalty.


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## SifuPhil (Apr 12, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Of course people care. When the Bali 9 (drug smugglers) were arrested I was very angry about the damage they were going to inflict on our Australian youth and I had no sympathy for them at all. Only two of the nine were sentenced to death and my attitude then was that if that is Indonesian law, then so be it because they knew what the deal was if they were to be caught. I cared a lot more for the potential victims than I did for the criminals.
> 
> However, ten years down the track there has been genuine reform. One has found redemption through art. He is a model prisoner and conducts art classes for other prisoners. The prison authorities have testified to his value in the prison. The other has studied and is now a Christian pastor, also an asset to the prison. IMO they are not faking and they expect to die while at the same time hoping to live. I hope they will be reprieved too.
> 
> It's not about caring versus not caring. We can care for the criminal as well as the victim. WWJS? WWJD?



I hope you are never called upon to teach in a prison, Dame - there are so many scams that are run on a daily basis that even the most experienced con-man would be tripped up. The casual lie is a way of life behind those thick walls. 

Recidivism rates are far too high to trust that anyone has truly reformed.


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## Warrigal (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, yeah...
I've been called Pollyanna before but I still believe that while there is life, there is the possibility of redemption.


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## Debby (Apr 12, 2015)

koala said:


> Yes I agree but this is a different case




My comment was directed towards someone who felt that people who'd been convicted of a violent crime should have no opportunity to appeal and they should go direct to the killing chamber.  That this case is different to a degree goes without saying, but the same rules of right of appeal until there's absolutely no more evidence should still prevail.  You can't 'cherry-pick' justice and fairness.


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## Jackie22 (Apr 12, 2015)

Debby said:


> My comment was directed towards someone who felt that people who'd been convicted of a violent crime should have no opportunity to appeal and they should go direct to the killing chamber.  That this case is different to a degree goes without saying, but the same rules of right of appeal until there's absolutely no more evidence should still prevail.  You can't 'cherry-pick' justice and fairness.



Agreed...our laws are there for a reason, they need to be followed.


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## Debby (Apr 12, 2015)

lovemylittleboy said:


> Well you know they are not "in the business for killing" they are there to try and stop the enemy. And if the enemy is pointing a gun at you,  you gonna let him shoot you or are you gonna shoot first?  Of course they come back with PTSD you think it is a picnic over there?
> And chances are if he was caught by ISIS , ISIS was there first. I think you should be ashamed to speak of the soldiers the way you do. No one likes war......NO ONE.   Do you know how many parents, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, brothers and sisters , etc...you have offended terribly bad?  This conversation is over with me and you ought to  be  more thankful for the military. You should thank God they volunteer their very life for you.
> 
> And no one is "innocent" , we are all born in sin Going back to Genesis. Ok?





Oh spare me.  If a war is just (someone attacked us, are attacking us and will continue to attack us) I have no problem with defending ourselves.  BUT I point you to the terrible mistake/crime that was the Iraq war or even Libya.  I remind you of the Apache helicopter attack that showed American soldiers killing two Reuters journalists and a bunch of civilians including a dad taking his little kids to school and making the mistake of stopping to help one of those journalists and was murdered for his efforts! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOMchDJOus  Apache helicopter murderers.

And then there's the couple thousand innocent civilians (including children) who've been murdered by Obama's drone program in the ME.   Do you have any idea how offended those peoples families are at this unending worship of soldiers fighting in illegal wars?

And how many actual experts on politics and wars are suggesting that the war in Iraq was the impetus for the birthing of ISIS? Soldiers kill, they are not 'innocent'.  And we are all 'innocent' until that moment when we make a decision to allow for the hurt of someone else to save our own butts or 'get' for ourselves at someone else's expense.  

And if you really want to get into what occurred in the Genesis story, we can discuss how human beings treat the other living beings on the planet.....and we'll get to look at how we don't even come close to what 'God' intended.


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## Shalimar (Apr 12, 2015)

Debby, testify! War is almost always a slippery slope where reality and expediency meet. Regardless, the innocent suffer and die as they always do, and the rich and powerful pick over the bones. voila, c'est le deluge, n'est pas?


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