# What Are The Average Retirement Costs?



## OneEyedDiva (Jul 23, 2018)

I must say, I feel pretty blessed because my expenditures are much less in each of these categories being substantially less in some. Only my charitable exceeds their average. How do you fare?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...hat-does-an-average-retirement-cost/35455427/


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## mathjak107 (Jul 23, 2018)

not sure of the articles point .  no one is average . all our costs are based on just where we all  live . costs  can vary by 2x even within the same state going area to area . what good is comparing costs for someone in nyc by averaging them out with those in rural Mississippi ? on average we all have 2.35 kids .. ever see .35 of a kid ?   lol     averages really mean little when it comes to all our costs of living .


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 23, 2018)

I spend much less per year and much differently.

My biggest expense is medical insurance at $902.00/month.

I have been looking down the road and I can see a point where some of my expenses will begin to increase substantially as I require more assistance with my day to day living.  My hope is that some of that increased cost will be covered by a decrease in other areas if I quit driving for example.

I just look as far into the future as I can and tweak my plans a little here and there to try and stay on course.

Comparing myself to the neighbors is interesting but it won't help me reach my final destination.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 23, 2018)

we all earned different amounts when working. we all live different lifestyles with different spending  priorities in different areas .

anything that uses the words average or median when relating to the above are nothing more than click bait articles because retirement is no different .

anything beyond a tent in a warm climate is a lifestyle choice . depending on budget the choices of how to live and spend is endless . it is like asking how long is a rope ?


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## mathjak107 (Jul 23, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I spend much less per year and much differently.
> 
> My biggest expense is medical insurance at $902.00/month.
> 
> ...




while as we age we tend to cut back on lots of things we still have two big wild cards , healthcare and long term care .

but putting those  a side any cut back in spending on ourselves as we age will likely be replaced with more spending on the grand kids and kids  because that is what we would want to do with extra money .


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## KingsX (Jul 23, 2018)

.

The "average" cost is much more than for those who are frugal.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 23, 2018)

unless one is frugal enough to live golden girl style just being frugal , those averages for  many  things would not even cut it in many areas . you would have to be living in a studio apartment in a less than stellar area here in nyc and the boroughs to get something in that price range .  even studio's in decent areas run more than that average . one bedrooms in an apartment house are in the 1600-2k range outside of manhattan  in less than top areas ..

all of us our going to have a different housing story .

  medicare , a drug plan and  supplement  vary a lot by state . here medicare is 134 , 40 for a drug plan and 288 to 320 for a supplement . that includes no vision ,dental or hearing aids . that is 5700 per person .

sure , you can get cheaper advantage plans but those can be pay as you go with much higher out of pockets so they will vary case by case and plan by plan .


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## Don M. (Jul 23, 2018)

"Average" can vary all over the place.  Someone who chooses to live in San Francisco, or NY City might need 6 figures per year just to get by.  Others, who ignore their health, wind up spending most of their money on doctor bills.  Being retired, and in debt...housing, etc., surely hampers a retirees quality of life.  Those who have been wise enough to plan ahead, and live within their means, AND try to maintain their health, can enjoy their elder years.


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 23, 2018)

No such thing as average here in the UK, but at least we don't have to worry about medical costs.  Long term care is another matter, so it's best to spend all your money and let the state look after you.  The amount you need to enjoy retirement was discussed recently on another UK forum. Assuming you're mortgage and debt free,  most couples think that about £25k (about $35k) after tax is enough to provide a comfortable retirement.  I'd recon a bit more, say $50k a year (after tax).


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## Lethe200 (Jul 23, 2018)

Averages, as mathjak points out, can't work for everyone. In Northern California the range varies dramatically on housing costs and medical costs, because so much depends on when you bought your home. Food costs here are definitely higher, one local paper estimated as much as 30% higher than average.

Locals pretty much accept that if you make less than $100K/yr - whether employed or retired - you're considered "barely making it", LOL.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 23, 2018)

Don M. said:


> "Average" can vary all over the place.  Someone who chooses to live in San Francisco, or NY City might need 6 figures per year just to get by.  Others, who ignore their health, wind up spending most of their money on doctor bills.  Being retired, and in debt...housing, etc., surely hampers a retirees quality of life.  Those who have been wise enough to plan ahead, and live within their means, AND try to maintain their health, can enjoy their elder years.




all these how much do i need articles are all pretty much useless and just click bait .


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## KingsX (Jul 23, 2018)

Lethe200 said:


> Averages, as mathjak points out, can't work for everyone. In Northern California the range varies dramatically on housing costs and medical costs, because so much depends on when you bought your home. *Food costs here are definitely higher, one local paper estimated as much as 30% higher than average.*
> 
> Locals pretty much accept that if you make less than $100K/yr - whether employed or retired - you're considered "barely making it", LOL.




Wow... food costs are 30%  higher in NoCal ??
With all the good weather, agriculture, dairy and ranching in your state... WHY ??

Here in the Dallas area, there are plenty of different brand supermarkets.
In other words, lots of competition. Food prices here are lower than average.


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## treeguy64 (Jul 23, 2018)

Goofy!  My costs are far less, and I'm living in one of the most expensive cities in the US.   I agree with those who say this article is simply click bait.


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## hollydolly (Jul 23, 2018)

Capt Lightning said:


> No such thing as average here in the UK, but at least we don't have to worry about medical costs.  Long term care is another matter, so it's best to spend all your money and let the state look after you.  The amount you need to enjoy retirement was discussed recently on another UK forum. Assuming you're mortgage and debt free,  most couples think that about £25k (about $35k) after tax is enough to provide a comfortable retirement.  I'd recon a bit more, say $50k a year (after tax).



I agree


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## mathjak107 (Jul 24, 2018)

on the other hand we too live in one of the most expensive places  , nyc  , queens ,  and our lifestyle cost way more . so this is why these articles that discuss "median " or  "average " anything are pretty meaningless .


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## Colleen (Jul 24, 2018)

That article, in my opinion, is WAY off the mark! Who writes these "retirement" articles, anyway?? The best retirement cities to live in, the best no-tax states, etc......none of these articles are even close to what the reality of retirement is and what we spend.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 24, 2018)

both on the low side of retirement spending and the high side of retirement spending . many spend more in retirement then they did working . heck , when we worked we had no time to travel . now we have all this time to be out daily and do things in one of the greatest cities in the world . so time can cost money in retirement and one thing we have plenty of is time . 

if we could magically double our budget it still would not cover all the things we want to do before we die .


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## Lethe200 (Jul 26, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Wow... food costs are 30%  higher in NoCal ??
> With all the good weather, agriculture, dairy and ranching in your state... WHY ??



Labor costs and legal compliance requirements are higher cost. It's also priciest in San Francisco due to geography, traffic, and distances. Certain things are cheaper; others are more expensive because we foodies demand a lot of high-end products. For DH and I it's expensive because we really love good food, I'm a gourmet cook as is my whole family, and we dine out extensively as a hobby.

You can buy a loaf of Wonder Bread at $4 for a 20-oz loaf at Safeway (probably cheaper at Wal-Mart, but nobody I know shops there if they can avoid it, and they usually can). Or instead, artisanal Starter Bakery's Pain de Mie at $10.49 for 27 oz. loaf. Firebrand Bakery's artisanal sourdough French baguette is $5.99 for a 16 oz size.

Kraft's Cracker Barrel White Vermont Cheddar (which I like very much) is $5 for an 8-oz pkg. But I can also buy Jasper Hill's Cabot Clothbound Cheddar at $9.88 for less than 6 oz., from the great state of Vermont and one of the top cheesemakers in the U.S. But better than both (if you're a Brie-type lover like my spouse) is Cowgirl Creamery's Mt. Tam, at $13.99 for 8 oz. Only the French imported Saint Angel is better, IMHO.

It all comes down to what you enjoy in life. Around here groceries can be cheap or expensive, depending on what you buy and where. You can buy a bland commercially-raised chicken in a plastic bag, or you can choose an organic air-chilled free-range chicken, or even a specialty variety like the Chinese black-skinned chicken or yellow-feathered chicken. A fresh-killed chicken is $4.99/lb. but there's nothing better for Hainanese yellow rice and boiled chicken with salt and pepper dip!

We just dined at a high-end butcher shop that has added a full restaurant to its retail outlet. The food was excellent. Peruvian beef heart skewers, Thai green curry chicken soup (super spicy, whew!), lamb burgers with fries, roasted broccolini and a shared dessert, was $83 before the tip. That is in line with prices at other restaurants around town. Figure by the time you buy the organic meats and veggies, do all the prep, grill/simmer/fry/roast/bake all those dishes, you wouldn't save much money trying to make it yourself at home, LOL.

It's a lifestyle choice. Also, don't forget that a lot of Millennials/singles buy deli or pre-prepared foods at supermarkets, which gets lumped in with regular grocery expenditures. For one or two people it often isn't worth cooking at home even if you enjoy doing it, unless you like eating leftovers for days on end (for me, 3 days is the absolute limit, LOL). The San Francisco Bay Area is such a competitive environment that even our delis, food trucks, and hotel restaurants offer quality food.


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 27, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> both on the low side of retirement spending and the high side of retirement spending . many spend more in retirement then they did working . heck , when we worked we had no time to travel . now we have all this time to be out daily and do things in one of the greatest cities in the world . so time can cost money in retirement and one thing we have plenty of is time .
> 
> if we could magically double our budget it still would not cover all the things we want to do before we die .



Since retiring, we've been pretty busy and don't have all the free time that we'd like,  but we do make the best we can of it, and that costs money. 
We have enough retirement income to live comfortably - but could happily spend  lot more doing the things we never had the time or money to do.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 27, 2018)

yep , unless you like to do nothing or live in an area where it is tough to find what to spend on , we are out every day and there is always stuff that costs us money somewhere .


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## mathjak107 (Jul 27, 2018)

Lethe200 said:


> Labor costs and legal compliance requirements are higher cost. It's also priciest in San Francisco due to geography, traffic, and distances. Certain things are cheaper; others are more expensive because we foodies demand a lot of high-end products. For DH and I it's expensive because we really love good food, I'm a gourmet cook as is my whole family, and we dine out extensively as a hobby.
> 
> You can buy a loaf of Wonder Bread at $4 for a 20-oz loaf at Safeway (probably cheaper at Wal-Mart, but nobody I know shops there if they can avoid it, and they usually can). Or instead, artisanal Starter Bakery's Pain de Mie at $10.49 for 27 oz. loaf. Firebrand Bakery's artisanal sourdough French baguette is $5.99 for a 16 oz size.
> 
> ...



for a special occasion  we went to the most amazing restaurant on the Rockefeller estate  .it is run by a world famous chef and it is a working farm  . everything comes from the farm .


the farm experience runs 550.00 without wine or 850 with wine pairing . dinner runs 4 hours and about 20 different dishes grown or slaughtered on the farm make it up . each table gets slightly different dishes .

we waited 1 year for a reservation for 2 and had to take a wed night at 5pm 
.
there are just 25 tables and there are 25 master chefs in the kitchen . chef barber is very famous and is the owner and top chef . he has a restaurant in manhattan too but it is not the farm experience . it is a more conventional menu.


https://www.bluehillfarm.com/dine/stone-barns


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## Colleen (Jul 27, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> for a special occasion  we went to the most amazing restaurant on the Rockefeller estate  .it is run by a world famous chef and it is a working farm  . everything comes from the farm .
> 
> 
> the farm experience runs 550.00 without wine or 850 with wine pairing . dinner runs 4 hours and about 20 different dishes grown or slaughtered on the farm make it up . each table gets slightly different dishes .
> ...



I ate at McDonald's last weekend after the movie...does that count as "eating out"???? It cost me $9 for my step-daughter and me 

If ya got it...spend it. I don't. I just try to have a good time no matter what 

Seriously, though....I don't understand the need to spend big bucks on food. Couldn't that money be put to better use??


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## mathjak107 (Jul 27, 2018)

Colleen said:


> I ate at McDonald's last weekend after the movie...does that count as "eating out"???? It cost me $9 for my step-daughter and me
> 
> If ya got it...spend it. I don't. I just try to have a good time no matter what
> 
> Seriously, though....I don't understand the need to spend big bucks on food. Couldn't that money be put to better use??



it was a gift certificate from all our kids for christmas .

this was such an experience that i would classify it with going to a broadway show .   the restaurant and interaction with the chef's provided 4 hours of entertainment by them plus great food far beyond the norm .

while i doubt we would spend more than 1/2 that amount ourselves i  thought it was fabulous .

typically a fine steak house runs about 225.00 or so .


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## Colleen (Jul 27, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> it was a gift certificate from all our kids for christmas .
> 
> this was such an experience that i would classify it with going to a broadway show .   the restaurant and interaction with the chef's provided 4 hours of entertainment by them plus great food far beyond the norm .
> 
> ...



Life is short...if you can afford luxuries, then enjoy them while you can


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## mathjak107 (Jul 27, 2018)

here are some pics i took. 25 master chefs for 25 tables of people . each with a specialty .  that duck was swmming only 15 minutes earlier . yes , that is mrs mathjak107


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## Lethe200 (Jul 27, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> ...if we could magically double our budget it still would not cover all the things we want to do before we die .



Isn't that the truth, LOL. We have friends who meant to retire in 2018 but cannot (family issues arose) so their new retirement date is 2020. Recently we had dinner with them and I mentioned our travel budget is now almost twice as much as it was when we began back in Jan 2010. 

She was goggle-eyed at that! But I pointed out that we started traveling as the recession hit - hotels were trying to fill rooms, restaurants were seeing fewer diners so not inclined to raise prices, etc. Now times are booming. With Boomers retiring the places we go are often busy even midweek and off-season. 

Inflation, higher wages, rent and tax increases, hard to find waitstaff now - a booming economy translates into higher prices all around. It's cheaper to go on a cruise or travel overseas than it is to travel around California, the way we like to do.


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## mathjak107 (Jul 27, 2018)

we love travel . we were in cuba recently and bermuda  . i am going to Chicago next month . my little 5 year old started little league and his team is the cubs . he said he wanted to see the real cubs so my son , the little one and i  are flying to Chicago for a guy trip to see the cubs play and eat steaks .

then in sept we are visiting ashville  .


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## OneEyedDiva (Jul 29, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> unless one is frugal enough to live golden girl style just being frugal , those averages for  many  things would not even cut it in many areas . you would have to be living in a studio apartment in a less than stellar area here in nyc and the boroughs to get something in that price range .  even studio's in decent areas run more than that average . one bedrooms in an apartment house are in the 1600-2k range outside of manhattan  in less than top areas ..
> 
> all of us our going to have a different housing story .
> 
> ...





Don M. said:


> "Average" can vary all over the place.  Someone who chooses to live in San Francisco, or NY City might need 6 figures per year just to get by.  Others, who ignore their health, wind up spending most of their money on doctor bills.  Being retired, and in debt...housing, etc., surely hampers a retirees quality of life.  Those who have been wise enough to plan ahead, and live within their means, AND try to maintain their health, can enjoy their elder years.


Of course both of you are right. What's average for folks living where rent or property taxes are reasonable is certainly not going to be the same for those living in San Fran or NYC where a studio apartment can run $3,000 or more. I see this "click bait" article elicited several replies from you Mathjak.  LOL  Yeah, I know, some where to other respondents. Mrs. Mathjak in the black dress?


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## mathjak107 (Jul 29, 2018)

Yep that is the mrs’s


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 5, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> Yep that is the mrs’s


She's lovely.  Love the hair (I LOVE curly hair). She doesn't look like a senior.


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## mathjak107 (Aug 6, 2018)

she is older than me   ha ha ha ssssshhhhhhhhh


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## KingsX (Aug 6, 2018)

.


It's disgusting how cooks in fancy high-priced restaurants individually manhandle and arrange every little piece of food on the plate.

One of my favorite restaurants is a nearby BBQ place. Except for the BBQ beef that is sliced to order in front of the customer [or ribs, or chicken, etc]  the rest of the meal is serve yourself cafeteria style.  I usually get BBQ beef,  two vegetables [potato salad is yummy] , peppers/pickles and awesome rolls made on site,  all for less than $11.  Or sometimes I get sliced BBQ beef to go [as much or little as I want] to make sandwiches at home.


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## mathjak107 (Aug 6, 2018)

well just goes to show you , i like it when dealing with master chefs  . i think the visual presentation is as important as the taste . i think it is disgusting when master chef's use their skills to make something that taste so good and drop the ball on making it visually attractive like they gave some thought to it


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## KingsX (Aug 6, 2018)

.

Sometimes I like to watch "Chopped" on the Food Network.  Some of those chefs manhandle the food on the plate so much before it is served to the judges,  I don't know how the judges can eat it.  I couldn't.


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 6, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Sometimes I like to watch "Chopped" on the Food Network.  Some of those chefs manhandle the food on the plate so much before it is served to the judges,  I don't know how the judges can eat it.  I couldn't.


I know what you mean Kings. If most of us saw how our food was handled before it was served to us, let alone the condition of the kitchens, we probably wouldn't eat it. That plate pictured with the tomatoes and other colored fruit/veges (Mathjak's post) doesn't appeal to me at all. Looks like the tomatoes didn't even ripen enough to be used. And I've noticed that the pricier the restaurant, seems the less food is on your plate.


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## Don M. (Aug 6, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .It's disgusting how cooks in fancy high-priced restaurants individually manhandle and arrange every little piece of food on the plate.



I'm with you.  I don't need "entertainment" when I go to a restaurant...just good food.  Awhile back, we stopped at a Chinese restaurant, where they seated everyone around a large grill.  The cook came out and "played" with everything, even to the point of asking people to open their mouths, and he would toss them a bite.  Watching him was like watching a child play with a pile of toys...almost lost my appetite.  We crossed that place off our list.


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## KingsX (Aug 6, 2018)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I know what you mean Kings. If most of us saw how our food was handled before it was served to us, let alone the condition of the kitchens, we probably wouldn't eat it. That plate pictured with the tomatoes and other colored fruit/veges (Mathjak's post) doesn't appeal to me at all. Looks like the tomatoes didn't even ripen enough to be used. And I've noticed that the pricier the restaurant, seems the less food is on your plate.




Not only is there much less food on the plate, it cost a fortune and every individual piece placed carefully on the plate has been touched by the chef...  and yes, I also noticed in the photo that tiny bit of carefully placed unripe tomato.


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## KingsX (Aug 6, 2018)

Don M. said:


> I'm with you.  I don't need "entertainment" when I go to a restaurant...just good food.  Awhile back, we stopped at a Chinese restaurant, where they seated everyone around a large grill.  The cook came out and "played" with everything, even to the point of asking people to open their mouths, and he would toss them a bite.  Watching him was like watching a child play with a pile of toys...almost lost my appetite.  We crossed that place off our list.




I would have walked out.

.


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## Colleen (Aug 6, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Not only is there much less food on the plate, it cost a fortune and every individual piece placed carefully on the plate has been touched by the chef...  and yes, I also noticed in the photo that tiny bit of carefully placed unripe tomato.



I think the snobs of this world like this kind of stuff. Makes 'em feel more superior. To my way of thinking...what a waste of money and I don't care if the guy is a "Master Chef"....he's still just placing bits of overpriced food on a plate.....and do you know if he actually washed his hands before he did so?? No thanks...even if I could afford it.

We don't eat out much any more. I've gotten to the point I think it's ridiculous what a basic dinner costs nowadays...and besides...I don't know what's happening behind closed doors before I get that dinner!! I'd rather cook at home. Sometimes when we've gone in to town for groceries and we've been running around doing this and that, my hubby will ask if I want to stop and get lunch. I used to say yes more often than not, but not now. Not only do I not want to spend $20-$30 for lunch...I don't know how clean a place is when I get food. It really bugs me. I think every state should have to display a rating, like CA, how that particular restaurant is rated on cleanliness, etc.


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## Olivia (Aug 6, 2018)

Yes, in Hawaii we have those ratings after inspections on any place at all that sells food. The placards are displayed on the front of any restaurant, etc. And there have been places that have failed, and some places that have taken down the placards that gave them a failing rating, and then they get severely fined.

About prices, though, I'm wondering about those services that deliver a box of all you need to cook a meal. On one such service they advertise that you can get $30 off on a first order. Makes me wonder how much it costs for just one regular meal delivery. And then you still have to cook it yourself. I think it's more for what they used to call "yuppies".


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## ronaldj (Aug 7, 2018)

we have been retired for 8 years and living on about half of our funds......this month I started remolding our bathroom and holy smokes it's not cheap.


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## mathjak107 (Aug 7, 2018)

you should see what it can cost to make a house livable so you can age in place  if you are not very mobile .

that is why it is a good idea to always have your money growing efficiently . more money can buy more choices .

i know i would sure like to have the dough to modify my home  with in home care rather than have medicaid ship me off to a nursing home up to 100 miles away from loved ones  which they can do .


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## Gary O' (Aug 7, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> we all earned different amounts when working. we all live different lifestyles with different spending  priorities in different areas .
> 
> anything that uses the words average or median when relating to the above are nothing more than click bait articles because retirement is no different .
> 
> anything beyond a tent in a warm climate is a lifestyle choice . depending on budget the choices of how to live and spend is endless . it is like asking how long is a rope ?



Yeah, I’d skew the heck outa that average
Our income is six times our expenses
‘Course I live with the squirrels……






I’m still not comfortable, or at ease with the assurance of my retirement income

…but takin’ it


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## StarSong (Aug 7, 2018)

I'm surprised that so many consider artful plating by highly trained (plastic-gloved) master chefs to be "manhandling" the food.  Expensive restaurant dining is intended to be a treat for all the senses.  Upscale restaurants strive to provide a delightful ambiance, excellent service, elegant apparel of the waitstaff as well as the diners, and food that's beautifully presented as well as delicious.  All these contribute to a memorable experience that many find worth the price.  Dining out isn't always about satisfying hunger.        

If you think peering into a commercial or restaurant kitchen would be off-putting, try visiting a factory farm or slaughterhouse.  Talk about filthy and disgusting.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 7, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, I’d skew the heck outa that average
> Our income is six times our expenses
> ‘Course I live with the squirrels……
> 
> ...



Money is just one of the important ingredients needed to create a happy life.

It's a wonderful feeling when you finally realize that you have enough money and can devote your time to some of the other important things in life. 

[FONT=&quot]_"Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail."_ -  Kinky Friedman[/FONT]


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## KingsX (Aug 7, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I'm surprised that so many consider artful plating by highly trained *(plastic-gloved)* master chefs to be "manhandling" the food.
> 
> .




Dream on...


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## StarSong (Aug 7, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Dream on...



The photos that Mathjak posted show the food handlers wearing gloves.  That's what I was referring to.


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## KingsX (Aug 7, 2018)

.

Early on,   my reference was to the Food Network TV show, Chopped, where the chefs prepare the plates for the judges bare-handed, unless there has been a bloody mishap.


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## john19485 (Aug 7, 2018)

Once in  a lifetime event 





mathjak107 said:


> it was a gift certificate from all our kids for christmas .
> 
> this was such an experience that i would classify it with going to a broadway show .   the restaurant and interaction with the chef's provided 4 hours of entertainment by them plus great food far beyond the norm .
> 
> ...


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## mathjak107 (Aug 8, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I'm surprised that so many consider artful plating by highly trained (plastic-gloved) master chefs to be "manhandling" the food.  Expensive restaurant dining is intended to be a treat for all the senses.  Upscale restaurants strive to provide a delightful ambiance, excellent service, elegant apparel of the waitstaff as well as the diners, and food that's beautifully presented as well as delicious.  All these contribute to a memorable experience that many find worth the price.  Dining out isn't always about satisfying hunger.
> 
> If you think peering into a commercial or restaurant kitchen would be off-putting, try visiting a factory farm or slaughterhouse.  Talk about filthy and disgusting.


i agree 100%  ..


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 8, 2018)

Colleen said:


> I think the snobs of this world like this kind of stuff. Makes 'em feel more superior. To my way of thinking...what a waste of money and I don't care if the guy is a "Master Chef"....he's still just placing bits of overpriced food on a plate.....and do you know if he actually washed his hands before he did so?? No thanks...even if I could afford it.
> 
> We don't eat out much any more. I've gotten to the point I think it's ridiculous what a basic dinner costs nowadays...and besides...I don't know what's happening behind closed doors before I get that dinner!! I'd rather cook at home. Sometimes when we've gone in to town for groceries and we've been running around doing this and that, my hubby will ask if I want to stop and get lunch. I used to say yes more often than not, but not now. Not only do I not want to spend $20-$30 for lunch...I don't know how clean a place is when I get food. It really bugs me. I think every state should have to display a rating, like CA, how that particular restaurant is rated on cleanliness, etc.





StarSong said:


> I'm surprised that so many consider artful plating by highly trained (plastic-gloved) master chefs to be "manhandling" the food.  Expensive restaurant dining is intended to be a treat for all the senses.  Upscale restaurants strive to provide a delightful ambiance, excellent service, elegant apparel of the waitstaff as well as the diners, and food that's beautifully presented as well as delicious.  All these contribute to a memorable experience that many find worth the price.  Dining out isn't always about satisfying hunger.
> 
> If you think peering into a commercial or restaurant kitchen would be off-putting, try visiting a factory farm or slaughterhouse.  Talk about filthy and disgusting.



My sister and I were in Atlantic City at the Hard Rock Cafe (formerly located in the now defunct Showboat, not the new Hard Rock Casino). Anyway, they boasted a "master chef"...forgot his name. My sister ordered a Caesar salad. When it finally came out, it literally looked like someone had gone and pulled some leaves off a tree...not washed or cut them up. She was disgusted, especially since we had waited so long for the food to finally come out. My sister is very finicky about her food but even if she wasn't, I couldn't blame her this time. It was disgraceful. She couldn't eat it and had to order something else.  
StarSong want to see something really disgusting...watch the doc What The Health (Netflix). What they reveal about pork farming is truly sickening. There's a lot of things we eat that If we only knew.....!


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## StarSong (Aug 8, 2018)

OneEyedDiva said:


> *StarSong want to see something really disgusting...watch the doc What The Health (Netflix). What they reveal about pork farming is truly sickening. There's a lot of things we eat that If we only knew.....!*



I eat a WFPB (whole food plant based) diet, meaning I'm pretty much a vegan who avoids sugars, added oils, junk and processed foods.  The meat "industry" and factory "farming" are sickening indeed.  (I use quotes because the words industry and farming are nothing more than euphemisms.)


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## KingsX (Aug 8, 2018)

OneEyedDiva said:


> My sister and I were in Atlantic City at the Hard Rock Cafe (formerly located in the now defunct Showboat, not the new Hard Rock Casino). Anyway, they boasted a "master chef"...forgot his name. My sister ordered a Caesar salad. When it finally came out, it literally looked like someone had gone and pulled some leaves off a tree...not washed or cut them up. She was disgusted, especially since we had waited so long for the food to finally come out. My sister is very finicky about her food but even if she wasn't, I couldn't blame her this time. It was disgraceful. She couldn't eat it and had to order something else.
> 
> *StarSong want to see something really disgusting...watch the doc What The Health (Netflix). What they reveal about pork farming is truly sickening. There's a lot of things we eat that If we only knew.....!*




 God told us not to eat pork,  so I don't.


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## mathjak107 (Aug 8, 2018)

i am laughing to myself because my wife is away baby sitting for 2 weeks and i think 95% of what i ate came through the drivers side window .


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 2, 2018)

KingsX said:


> God told us not to eat pork,  so I don't.


Well I'm Muslim Kings so I definitely don't. But I'd stopped eating it before I accepted Islam.  God told all of his people Christians, Jews and Muslims not to eat pork. For people who claim to have faith...don't they think God knows what He's talking about?!


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 2, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> she is older than me   ha ha ha ssssshhhhhhhhh


lol


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## mathjak107 (Sep 2, 2018)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Well I'm Muslim Kings so I definitely don't. But I'd stopped eating it before I accepted Islam.  God told all of his people Christians, Jews and Muslims not to eat pork. For people who claim to have faith...don't they think God knows what He's talking about?!



only if you believe it .


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## hollydolly (Sep 2, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> only if you believe it .



...agreed , and although I hate the taste of  most pork products ..I just can't break myself of the delishusnesssss of a bacon sandwich


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## mathjak107 (Sep 2, 2018)

i always say if those who have not tried bacon tried it they would likely switch religions in a heartbeat.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 2, 2018)

i love good ribs too. my wife won't let me eat them unless they used lipitor as a dry rub . but when she is away baby sitting every so often i will get the traditional wife's away 1/2 rack of ribs .


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## StarSong (Sep 2, 2018)

My arteries are undoubtedly happy that my taste buds never favored pork, breakfast sausages, bacon, hot dogs, pastrami or corned beef.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 3, 2018)

it generally  seems that all these people that live very very long to be some of the oldest living people ,  live on these high fat saturated diets and alcohol  .


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> it generally  seems that all these people that live very very long to be some of the oldest living people ,  live on these high fat saturated diets and alcohol  .



_Anecdotally,_ of course you will stumble over a few who remain healthy into their 90s & 100s despite diets that include large amounts of saturated fat & heavy alcohol consumption.  

_Statistically,_ they are rarities.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 3, 2018)

i have a genetic disorder  where i was running very high cholesterol and tri's in the 1,000 range for  likely decades .

while i am on lipitor the last few years , tests show no problems so far at all from decades of really poor numbers . in fact i run 4 miles every other day


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> i have a genetic disorder  where i was running very high cholesterol and tri's in the 1,000 range for  likely decades .
> 
> while i am on lipitor the last few years , tests show no problems so far at all from decades of really poor numbers . in fact i run 4 miles every other day



Where are you going with this?  Are you attributing your apparent lack of CV issues (despite this genetic disorder) to  high fat saturated diets and alcohol?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 3, 2018)

personally i think they are going to find they are measuring and concentrating on the wrong things . science does this though out history . eventually mark my words . watching cholesterol is going to be found not to be an answer .


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> personally i think they are going to find they are measuring and concentrating on the wrong things . science does this though out history . eventually mark my words . watching cholesterol is going to be found not to be an answer .



Perhaps not, but I don't see science coming to the conclusion that heavy ingestion of saturated fats and plenty of alcohol will improve - or not have a negative impact - on human health.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 3, 2018)

not what i said . when it comes to this big to do about pumping most of us full of drugs   to reduce cholesterol and triglycerides  i would bet they are going to learn they are measuring the wrong things that lead to these clogged arteries . they just don't know what to measure yet but it likely will turn out it is not what they thought


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2018)

Ok, I get what you're saying and agree.  Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence showing statins and the like are not nearly as effective at reducing CV events and deaths as big pharma suggests.  Simply lowering cholesterol and triglycerides numbers isn't a magic answer.  

These bodies we inhabit are far more complex than much of modern science's reductionist thinking wants to hope.


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## Knight (Sep 3, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> it generally  seems that all these people that live very very long to be some of the oldest living people ,  live on these high fat saturated diets and alcohol  .


When you think about it a diet like that as opposed to as healthy as you can possibly get. It could be embarrassing to be in a hospital dying of nothing.


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## JimW (Sep 4, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Perhaps not, but I don't see science coming to the conclusion that heavy ingestion of saturated fats and plenty of alcohol will improve - or not have a negative impact - on human health.



Don't be such a negative Nelly. :laugh:



mathjak107 said:


> not what i said . when it comes to this big to do about pumping most of us full of drugs   to reduce cholesterol and triglycerides  i would bet they are going to learn they are measuring the wrong things that lead to these clogged arteries . they just don't know what to measure yet but it likely will turn out it is not what they thought



This week eggs are good for you, next week not so much.


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## StarSong (Sep 4, 2018)

JimW said:


> This week eggs are good for you, next week not so much.



I hope our One Eyed Diva doesn't mind that we have wandered so far off topic.  

As for whether eggs, milk, cheese, beef, pork, chicken, etc., are healthy foods for humans, you can see a lot by following the money.  Who's paying for these studies and how much do they stand to gain (or lose) by carefully orchestrating the studies and shading the results? 

It's almost always all about the money.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 4, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I hope our One Eyed Diva doesn't mind that we have wandered so far off topic.
> 
> As for whether eggs, milk, cheese, beef, pork, chicken, etc., are healthy foods for humans, you can see a lot by following the money.  Who's paying for these studies and how much do they stand to gain (or lose) by carefully orchestrating the studies and shading the results?
> 
> It's almost always all about the money.



Don't mind at all StarSong. This means we are having a conversation. An interesting one at that. And it reminds me of the conversations I have with family and friends.


mathjak107 said:


> i always say if those who have not tried bacon tried it they would likely switch religions in a heartbeat.



Most of the Muslims I know happen to be African American. We grew up on pork baby.  Pigs feet, bacon, ham hocks.  Need I say more?  One thing I would never eat...chitterlings.  Ugh!


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 4, 2018)

Colleen said:


> That article, in my opinion, is WAY off the mark! Who writes these "retirement" articles, anyway?? The best retirement cities to live in, the best no-tax states, etc......none of these articles are even close to what the reality of retirement is and what we spend.



I agree that most of these articles are Colleen but they elicit opinions and start the conversation. I find that when they post The Best Places To Live articles, I very rarely see a place I'd want to move to. And they seem to forget important details about consequences of making those moves.  I feel there are a lot of people in the financial world who don't base their opinions and advice on the average person.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 5, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I hope our One Eyed Diva doesn't mind that we have wandered so far off topic.
> 
> As for whether eggs, milk, cheese, beef, pork, chicken, etc., are healthy foods for humans, you can see a lot by following the money.  Who's paying for these studies and how much do they stand to gain (or lose) by carefully orchestrating the studies and shading the results?
> 
> It's almost always all about the money.



more recent studies are leading towards plant food being worse than eating animal .lecitin's which are in most plant foods are being shown to do reat bad things to us humans . as  researcher dr gundry found "  Plants don't like us. They were here first. They had it great before animals arrived because nobody wanted to eat them or their babies: their seeds. When animals arrived, plants had a problem: They couldn't run, they couldn't hide, and they couldn't fight. But they were chemists of incredible ability. So they turned to chemical warfare to convince their new predators, animals, not to eat them."They do this by using, among other things, proteins called lectins that literally act like guided missile attacks on the gut lining of animals, the nerves, and the joints by binding to sugar molecules. Essentially they hack their predators to make them feel ill, or not thrive, or hurt. The smart animals get the message and move on. Then humans arrived. We're pretty stupid. "


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## StarSong (Sep 5, 2018)

mathjak107 said:


> more recent studies are leading towards plant food being worse than eating animal .lecitin's which are in most plant foods are being shown to do reat bad things to us humans . as  researcher dr gundry found "  Plants don't like us. They were here first. They had it great before animals arrived because nobody wanted to eat them or their babies: their seeds. When animals arrived, plants had a problem: They couldn't run, they couldn't hide, and they couldn't fight. But they were chemists of incredible ability. So they turned to chemical warfare to convince their new predators, animals, not to eat them."They do this by using, among other things, proteins called lectins that literally act like guided missile attacks on the gut lining of animals, the nerves, and the joints by binding to sugar molecules. Essentially they hack their predators to make them feel ill, or not thrive, or hurt. The smart animals get the message and move on. Then humans arrived. We're pretty stupid. "



Dr. Grundy is a perfect example of someone whose "studies" support a personal agenda.  His agenda?  Supplements that cost thousands of dollars per year. https://gundrymd.com/supplements/  Talk about follow the money!  

With all the peer-reviewed scientific research and massive amounts of evidence in favor of plant based diets, if you truly believe Grundy's assertion that eating animals over plants is a healthier diet for humans, I am not going to be able to convince you otherwise.


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## Don M. (Sep 5, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Dr. Grundy is a perfect example of someone whose "studies" support a personal agenda.  His agenda?  Supplements that cost thousands of dollars per year. https://gundrymd.com/supplements/  Talk about follow the money! With all the peer-reviewed scientific research and massive amounts of evidence in favor of plant based diets, if you truly believe Grundy's assertion that eating animals over plants is a healthier diet for humans, I am not going to be able to convince you otherwise.



Virtually ALL of these "studies" are of little real value.  Most are designed to convince people to open their wallets.  The Only real and effective "diets" are those which consist of a balance of caloric intake and a routine of exercise to consume any excess calories.  Perhaps the Best indicators are the BMI index, and the height to waistline ratio.  If a persons Belly circumference is more than half their height, that person needs to do a serious reevaluation of their eating habits and lifestyle.  Virtually Any food is OK, so long as a person consumes it in moderation.


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## Colleen (Sep 5, 2018)

Don M. said:


> Virtually ALL of these "studies" are of little real value.  Most are designed to convince people to open their wallets.  The Only real and effective "diets" are those which consist of a balance of caloric intake and a routine of exercise to consume any excess calories.  Perhaps the Best indicators are the BMI index, and the height to waistline ratio.  If a persons Belly circumference is more than half their height, that person needs to do a serious reevaluation of their eating habits and lifestyle.  Virtually Any food is OK, so long as a person consumes it in moderation.



Excellent! Well said. The key is moderation. It's taken me 70 years to figure out what my body (and stomach) don't like so I don't even tempt myself to eat them. One of the things I just cannot digest is beef. Hamburg is OK but I can't tolerate roast beef. I love the taste of it but can't digest it so I stay away from it. I read an article a long time ago that humans were never meant to digest meat. I've always had a problem with it.


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## Olivia (Sep 5, 2018)

> I read an article a long time ago that humans were never meant to digest meat. I've always had a problem with it.



That's kind of strange because from what I learned is that hunters came before "hunter and gatherers." If anything, it would be carbs that humans shouldn't be eating. At least not the amount we are eating now.


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## Colleen (Sep 5, 2018)

Olivia said:


> That's kind of strange because from what I learned is that hunters came before "hunter and gatherers." If anything, it would be carbs that humans shouldn't be eating. At least not the amount we are eating now.



I misstated that: The article said humans have a difficult time digesting red meat. I've always had that problem, but I understand what you're saying. I have always heard/read and saw on documentaries that early man were hunters and gatherers.


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## Olivia (Sep 5, 2018)

Colleen, you might be interested in reading Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. Really, really interesting. He says that the worst thing to happen to humans was when they learned how to grow things like wheat, etc, and from that came towns and cities and people living close together which resulted in diseases and cruelty to animals. 

[h=1][/h]


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 17, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> Goofy!  My costs are far less, and I'm living in one of the most expensive cities in the US.   I agree with those who say this article is simply click bait.


And you took the bait.  Aaahahahahahahahahahah


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 17, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Dr. Grundy is a perfect example of someone whose "studies" support a personal agenda.  His agenda?  Supplements that cost thousands of dollars per year. https://gundrymd.com/supplements/  Talk about follow the money!
> 
> With all the peer-reviewed scientific research and massive amounts of evidence in favor of plant based diets, if you truly believe Grundy's assertion that eating animals over plants is a healthier diet for humans, I am not going to be able to convince you otherwise.


I agree with you StarSong. Just reading what Grundy wrote made me think....hmmm this guy *must* be kidding!


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