# Mass Murderers. Mental Health Care Needs Help Without the Gov't. Stop Wasting Time Talking Guns. Fix These People Before it Happens



## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

What do these murderers all have in common? Mental health.
This thread is not about guns but about preventative treatment and care.

So let's use creative thinking and figure out a way to make a change
without the government.

From left to right: Manson, recent Road Rage, Colorado Theater Mass Murder, Sandy Hook Elementary Mass Murder

*Attention all you people with assets in the multi-billions.....
The Government isn't going to do anything...most of our mental facilities were closed a decade ago*

1. What can we do to fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures?

2. How can we start to make good use of Mainstream Media for a change?  For educating our country on what is really going on, what we're lacking, and what we can all do together without the government's help...because they aren't


`


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> What do these murderers all have in common? Crazy eyes. Mental health issues.
> If they didn't have a gun do you think that would stop them?
> No, they'd get a knife, an ax, a rope, a pillow, poison, a match...
> View attachment 168623View attachment 168624View attachment 168625View attachment 168626
> ...


This would probably become a political thread so no comment


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> This would probably become a political thread so no comment


Only if you make it that. Thank you for "not commenting".

This thread is about Mental illness and what to do about it.
How can we help so many struggling?
*Forget the government. *They're not helping.


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## RadishRose (Jun 10, 2021)

I've been saying this for years; people just ignore the metal health aspect and start in about guns. Therefore, I no longer discuss it.

Maybe we can't fix them; I don't know.


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## hollydolly (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> What do these murderers all have in common? Crazy eyes. Mental health issues.
> If they didn't have a gun do you think that would stop them?
> No, they'd get a knife, an ax, a rope, a pillow, poison, a match...
> View attachment 168623View attachment 168624View attachment 168625View attachment 168626
> ...


''Care in the community''...that's what it's called here. No more mental institutions ( as they were called)  for these types as there was when I was a kid ..


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Thank you Holly...good suggestion. There would have to be a nationwide organization to get everyone on board...no?
I'd love to hear more about what other countries are doing that's working.
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## RadishRose (Jun 10, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ''Care in the community''...that's what it's called here. No more mental institutions ( as they were called)  for these types as there was when I was a kid ..


Same here, Holly.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Be careful...

*Be sure to check out reviews* of the facilities in your area...it may not be as good as you think. Use Yelp, Google Reviews, or other reputable sites for reviews. And make sure you are reading *the real reviews and not the sponsors reviews.*

There is a mental health facility in NC that has an impressive website but if you check out the reviews you would be appalled.

Website: https://hollyhillhospital.com/ .....looks really professional and helpful doesn't it...Not. See reviews:

Reviews: https://www.yelp.com/biz/holly-hill-hospital-raleigh-3
(*Not* the top 3 reviews!!...they are from sponsors of the place. Scroll down to the real reviews where it gets REAL)


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## WhatInThe (Jun 10, 2021)

Their attic is empty. Filling it up with the right stuff let alone anything is tougher than it looks.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Then they need to be kept away from society on a deserted island with like kind.
Treated humanely on the island because they can't help their illness...but far away from, say, the 27 child victims of Sandy Hook Elementary.

Let them sun themselves on the beach, food and books dropped in. Build a basketball court, golf course, tennis courts. Whatever it takes to keep them away from society. Prison won't help them. Each morning they are somehow given their meds so they don't kill each other.

I know. That would be a real shot in the dark but we sure have a lot of deserted islands around the globe.


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## Chet (Jun 10, 2021)

We see what's going on with their eyes, but I wonder what they are seeing with them and how they interpret it.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2021)

There are four pictures of murders, and you know they have mental issues, because they have "crazy eyes". I don't want to make snap judgements, but you have to admit, "crazy eyes" is not exactly a 100% indicator of one's mental status. And people, who commit wanton murder, whether sane or not, should not be allowed on the street. So how are we supposed to know who get shipped off to "Phantasy Island", if they won't open their eyes?


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Yes, guns kill. This thread is not about the weapons of choice since there are many choices that kill. This is strictly about mental illness that leads up to mass murder. How to stop it before it gets to that.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 10, 2021)

I just saw a Court Cam episode where a guy sadistically murdered a person and got life in a mental institution not prison. I don't know what state it was in but I never knew life in a mental institution was ever given out as a sentence for a crime.


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## win231 (Jun 10, 2021)

The reality:  these people can't be fixed.  The only fix for this situation is to keep them confined permanently to protect everyone else from them.


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## Remy (Jun 10, 2021)

win231 said:


> The reality:  these people can't be fixed.  The only fix for this situation is to keep them confined permanently to protect everyone else from them.


This is a loaded reply but the truth is, for some it is the truth.

That said, mental health care in the United States is horrible. If it's not making some corporation money. No one seems to care.


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## Remy (Jun 10, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ''Care in the community''...that's what it's called here. No more mental institutions ( as they were called)  for these types as there was when I was a kid ..


We have super profit driven "care" her in the U.S. So I don't see it happening.


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## Ruthanne (Jun 10, 2021)

But if gun laws were better they wouldn't be able to get them.

Btw only 3% of mentally ill are dangerous.  Most have more fear problems.


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## 911 (Jun 10, 2021)

Too many people, friends, relatives, businesses, employers, etc., don't pay much attention to mental health issues. Up until maybe 15 years ago, many employer sponsored healthcare plans hardly paid towards people needing professional psychiatric help. It had to get better. 

The other issue is getting the people that need help to go get it. Usually we don't know who the sick people are until after they commit these terrible offenses. Usually, there are signs of a mental imbalance, but unless someone has been trained to recognize the signs, the sick person goes untreated, until he/she snaps.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

a)  We need better treatment of the mentally ill. But no one knows how to do it or how to pay for it.  Or what that better treatment really is. 

b)  We need better-written, better-enforced laws that prevent mentally ill people (among others) from buying or owning firearms.  

c)  If we want to cut down on the incidence and lethality of mass shootings, however, the only thing that might work would be a national ban 
     on semi-automatic weapons, both rifles and pistols. 

Of course c) will never happen, so it's not worth discussing.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

911 said:


> ...The other issue is getting the people that need help to go get it. Usually we don't know who the sick people are until after they commit these terrible offenses. Usually, there are signs of a mental imbalance, but unless someone has been trained to recognize the signs, the sick person goes untreated, until he/she snaps.


Yes, there is a facility in Cary NC called Monarch. There have ridiculously strict privacy policies in place where only the mentally sick individual can fill out the questionnaire given...but since mentally ill people don't know their mentally ill, then the answers given appear to not be a mental health issue and are turned away. 

For instance, if the question is "Do you think you are a threat to yourself or anyone around you" they will answer no. They may blame others and fabricate truth. And of course no information is shared with anyone who knows the person is mentally ill.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Sorry @JimBob1952  and @Ruthanne ....again, this thread is not about "gun laws" nor "owning firearms" nor banning them.
You can find that discussed ad-nauseam in other threads. Forget the govenrment. They aren't helping.

This thread is strictly about mental illness that leads up to mass murder. How to stop it before it gets to that. There are some ideas being discussed above starting with Holly's post #5


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Ok.  So how do you propose to solve the problem of mental illness that leads up to mass murder?   Especially without getting the government involved.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

Ruthanne said:


> But if gun laws were better they wouldn't be able to get them.


I think you mean that if purchasing guns was harder, i.e., if background checks were more comprehensive. One drawback with background checks is that mental illness can show up later in life and/or go un-diagnosed. And people who were diagnosed with mental health disorders and then considered "cured" (particularly young people) can request their mental health records be expunged for reasons of social stigma.

That aside, people can steal guns and buy stolen guns. Too many law-abiding gun owners don't know or don't keep a record of their firearm's serial numbers, so they don't have it when they report their gun stolen to police. And some don't properly secure their firearms at home to prevent theft.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Ok.  So how do you propose to solve the problem of mental illness that leads up to mass murder?   Especially without getting the government involved.


IMO, the government is grossly ill-equipped to tackle problems of mental illness. One thing we can do is insist they become equipped, but effectively rather than in their usual cavalier fashion.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Ok.  So how do you propose to solve the problem of mental illness that leads up to mass murder?   Especially without getting the government involved.



Like I and others have said, as we put our heads together...

"Fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures
1.  Start making Good Use of Mainstream Media for a change to Educate our country on what is really going on, what we're lacking.
2.  Get the attention all the people with assets in the multi-billions.....
3. Also Holly mentioned community control...see post #5
The Government isn't going to do anything about...most of our mental facilities were closed a decade ago"


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> a)  We need better treatment of the mentally ill. But no one knows how to do it or how to pay for it.  Or what that better treatment really is.
> 
> b)  We need better-written, better-enforced laws that prevent mentally ill people (among others) from buying or owning firearms.
> 
> ...


"C" did happen in some states. Recently overturned in one state, I think.

A definite yes to A and B.

"But no one knows how to do it or how to pay for it.  Or what that better treatment really is."
If you're talking about the gov't, I agree. I'm 100% in favor of including a national mental health advisor within the executive branch.
But most states have one, and I do think it's the responsibility of each state to address the issue. The problem is, politicians politicize the issue.


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## Judycat (Jun 10, 2021)

Geez. That happens with mugshots. Some gruff guy with the camera growls, Hey! Look at the camera! Click!


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> As I stated in my opening post:
> 
> "Fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures
> 1.  Start making Good Use of Mainstream Media for a change to Educate our country on what is really going on.
> ...



Mainstream media is about 99% aligned with gun control and doesn't pay much attention to mental health issues.  You're going to hear a lot more about Gabbie Gifford or David Hogg than about any advocates for mental health.  

If you can get over that hurdle, you might be able to get the Bloombergs and Gateses of the world to fund some sort of private mental health care system, maybe with a needs-based payment system.  

I have heard worse ideas, and I respect you for fresh thinking about such a tough subject.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> As I stated in my opening post:
> 
> "Fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures
> 1.  Start making Good Use of Mainstream Media for a change to Educate our country on what is really going on.
> ...


When state governments started opening up mental health clinics, the services were cheap, and to some it was free. This caused the closure of many thousand psychiatry and psychology practices. The most egregious decision regarding these mental health clinics is that states started "retiring" the PhD staff, and replacing them with cheaper, less educated staff. Individual treatment became cookie-cutter treatment, and people with truly serious mental health issues were referred to medical doctors and hospitals.

It just turned out really badly.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Maybe the concept should be a sort of Mayo Clinic "center of excellence" for mental health at the national level, and local clinics/small hospitals for treatment at the local level.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Maybe the concept should be a sort of Mayo Clinic "center of excellence" for mental health at the national level, and local clinics/small hospitals for treatment at the local level.


If states would then be expected or maybe financially rewarded to follow the Center of Excellence model, that could work.

*People* need to expect and demand better. That's what I'm getting at.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 10, 2021)

I agree that we need to do a better job of screening, diagnosing, and treating mental illness but I don’t want to live in a world where you can be locked away because someone decides you might commit a violent crime.

Also I don’t want to live in a world where I’m dependent on the super rich to solve my problems and take care of me.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> ...If you can get over that hurdle [media on guns], you might be able to get the Bloombergs and Gateses of the world to fund some sort of private mental health care system, maybe with a needs-based payment system.
> 
> I have heard worse ideas, and I respect you for fresh thinking about such a tough subject.



I did mention getting attention of the rich in opening post and about re-directing Mainstream Media to focus on educating the public on mental health issues :


Lara said:


> Attention all you people with assets in the multi-billions.....
> The Government is going to do anything...most of our mental facilities were closed a decade ago
> 
> Fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures.
> ...


...and you say you heard of worse ideas? Thanks


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> If states would then be expected or maybe financially rewarded to follow the Center of Excellence model, that could work.
> 
> *People* need to expect and demand better. That's what I'm getting at.



Couldn't agree with you more.  Why we put up with medieval-era mental health practices (or 21st century overreliance on pharmaceuticals) is a mystery.  

We could also save money.  I remember seeing something to the effect that a homeless person typically costs his city hundreds of thousands of dollars in ER visits, police interventions and other activities over a few years.  Getting that person treated (as most homeless people have mental health and/or substance abuse problems) and off the streets could easily pay for itself.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> I did mention getting attention of the rich in opening post and about re-directing Mainstream Media to focus on educating the public on mental health issues :
> 
> ...and you say you heard of worse ideas? Thanks.



Lara, you seem to think I'm arguing with you when I'm not.  I respect your thinking and if I haven't made that clear I apologize.


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## Judycat (Jun 10, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree that we need to do a better job of screening, diagnosing, and treating mental illness but I don’t want to live in a world where you can be locked away because someone decides you might commit a violent crime.


Or you have crazy eyes.


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## Don M. (Jun 10, 2021)

Sometime in the past, it became "politically incorrect" to label someone as being insane.  As a result, large numbers of the mentally ill get little or no help with their problems....and just wander aimlessly through society....Until they finally break down, completely.


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## Judycat (Jun 10, 2021)

An-y-way, this is why people with mental illness hide their disorder until it is too late. Also not all murderers are mentally ill they are just bent the wrong way personality-wise.  There are plenty of labels mental health professionals use to describe this. Borderline, sociopath, psychopath, etc. Doesn't mean they are nuts. Just sayin'.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2021)

The truth is we don't know much about mental illness. The first drug to be seen as anywhere effective is lithium, and that was in 1949. For some unknown reason, volunteers don't seem to be lining up to have their brains taken out, and studied.  There are legitimate ethical reasons why we can't do the same type of experiments of humans, that you could on a rat. We need to know so much more, we are dealing with the world's most complex thing-the human brain. I totally agree that our knowledge of mental illness is pitiful. And there are all kinds of  misconceptions about mental illness. One being you can know if someone is insane by looking at a photograph.  It is a misconception that all people with a mental illness are a threat to anyone, other than themselves. The  mentally ill are way more likely to be the victims of incidents. If you commit murder, sane or not, you don't get to go home.


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## win231 (Jun 10, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I just saw a Court Cam episode where a guy sadistically murdered a person and got life in a mental institution not prison. I don't know what state it was in but I never knew life in a mental institution was ever given out as a sentence for a crime.


On July 27, 2016, a federal judge ruled that Hinckley could be released from St. Elizabeths on August 5, as he was no longer considered a threat to himself or others. Hinckley was released from institutional psychiatric care on September 10, 2016, with many conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley_Jr.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 10, 2021)

Reading a book that was a bestseller last year called Hidden Valley Road.  Very powerful study of a family of 12 kids, 6 diagnosed with schizophrenia.  As fuzzybuddy and others have noted, it is amazing how little we know about these conditions.


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2021)

Ruthanne said:


> But if gun laws were better they wouldn't be able to get them.
> 
> Btw only 3% of mentally ill are dangerous.  Most have more fear problems.




 Gun laws can't be much better IMO. Have you ever gone to a gun store, and asked about the restrictions , etc ? They're pretty strict . As far as "personal" sales, not much can be done about them.


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2021)

Sorry ....... I replied to the gun aspect of this, and should not have.


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## Lara (Jun 10, 2021)

Thank you @rgp  It's not just you. We are all having a hard time re-directing our focus toward Preventative Mental Health Solutions before the next massacre because it's hard to figure out...and very involved.

It's easy to just say we don't know enough. True, research and education is a big one but meanwhile we can't just sit around and wait without trying to come up with a plan...at least step one.

Some have brought up some good suggestions to ponder. That's what I was hoping for.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 10, 2021)

Ok, I am going to comment , the following is MY OPINION, nothing more.  My opinion and a dollar and fifty cents will buy you a coke most anywhere but not everywhere.  

This thread has linked murders, mass murderers, to mental illness.  Not all mass murderers are mentally ill.  The legal definition of mental illness, as far as crimes are concerned, is very strict and probably differs state to state.

While many people think anyone who has killed a massive amount of people must be insane that premise is far from true.  A machine gunner in any War has killed a massive amount of people yet they are not considered insane.  Military pilots killed massive amounts of people with bombs, and on, and on and on.  Killing a massive amount of people, at one time, is not a test of ones sanity.

You can not recognize a murderer by his eyes.  You can not pick out a “crazy” person by his eyes. You can not pick out a mentally ill person by his eyes.  Many serial killers were/are very nice, likable, personable individuals with beautiful eyes and they have killed a massive amount of people.  Often times without a gun, and without being legally insane.  The FBI reports that several serial killers are operating in the USA at any given time.

Large institutions for mentally ill do not work.  This is a proven fact.  Moving any class of people to a restrictive environment is unworkable, against international law in most cases, and crazy in and of itself.  Consider the issues we and other countries have with holding terrorists, which cannot be help on US soil because of what we do to them.

There is a difference between the mentally ill and the criminally insane.  People are not cars, they cannot be fixed.  There is a difference between a drive by-gang shooting, and a frustrated angry armed person killing groups of people.  But neither of these mass murders are judged mentally ill.

I simply do not understand what the linkages presented here are between mentally ill people and the massive amount of shooters we have in the USA, many of who are not mentally ill.  I find the thread confusing


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## hollydolly (Jun 10, 2021)

win231 said:


> The reality:  these people can't be fixed.  The only fix for this situation is to keep them confined permanently to protect everyone else from them.


Unfortunately, locking up people like that for life is costing the taxpayers, millions every year..


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## Pink Biz (Jun 10, 2021)

*"Contrary to what many believe, a new study finds that mental illness isn't a factor in most mass shootings or other types of mass murder."*

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210225/mental-illness-not-a-factor-in-most-mass-shootings


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## ohioboy (Jun 10, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Unfortunately, locking up people like that for life is costing the taxpayers, millions every year..


I have a novel approach. Air lift all the lifer felons and parachute them over North Korea, they are then free to torment Kim unga bunga!


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## fmdog44 (Jun 10, 2021)

Doesn't the fact that this issue has been ongoing since the University of Texas shooting decades ago tell us there is no solution? I think it does Sandy Hook proved that. People are killing each other at a rate never before seen here and nothing is being done. Compare it to medical care. You have a family member very sick so you call your doctor and the reply you get it "Of course we care and it is serious issue but we simply refuse to actually DO something. Good luck"


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## ohioboy (Jun 10, 2021)

Lara, you are right, together some Billionaire's can make such a huge impact with philanthropy, instead of buying $100 million yaughts and houses. Shaq has a $50 million yaught! Why? Jeff Bezos has a fleet of private jets and a multi multi million $$ home? Why?


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## Nathan (Jun 10, 2021)

Charles Manson was born to a 16 yr. old alcoholic prostitute, from there things got worse.    Maybe if Manson's *mother* had some kind of support or guidance his life might have turned our differently.  
I think government can make a big difference with mental health, the Public can't just sit on their hands and expect their will to be known.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 10, 2021)

Russia is 11th in the world for alcohol consumption and we are 45th I saw on a 2016 chart. So that tells me most of the mass shootings are done by nondrinkers. Granted Russians are not allowed to own guns.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 10, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Charles Manson was born to a 16 yr. old alcoholic prostitute, from there things got worse.    Maybe if Manson's *mother* had some kind of support or guidance his life might have turned our differently.
> I think government can make a big difference with mental health, the Public can't just sit on their hands and expect their will to be known.


The Unabomber's mom was a low life alcoholic.


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## chic (Jun 10, 2021)

There were fewer mass shootings in the sixties when everybody was "happy". Deregulate drugs. Just sayin'.


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## mellowyellow (Jun 10, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Charles Manson was born to a 16 yr. old alcoholic prostitute, from there things got worse.    Maybe if Manson's *mother* had some kind of support or guidance his life might have turned our differently.
> I think government can make a big difference with mental health, the Public can't just sit on their hands and expect their will to be known.


If Charles Manson was born to a drug addicted prostitute, what chance did he have?  Although I applaud increased spending for mental health, I doubt it would have made a difference to his life.  Sadly it all comes down to an accident of birth.

_A Japanese man born to wealthy parents has been awarded about $371,000 in damages after accidentally being switched with another baby and spending decades living in poverty.

It was almost 60 years before a DNA test revealed the life-changing mistake by a hospital worker who had bathed the newborns and returned them to the wrong mothers.

The men spent decades living each others’ lives: one man living off welfare checks before working as a truck driver, the other enjoying a private education and now running his own real-estate business.

“I feel ... regret and also anger,” the poverty-stricken man, who has withheld his identity, told a press conference on Wednesday. “I want them to turn back the clock.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2013/12/04/switched-at-birth-rich-parents-son-sues-for-life-of-poverty.html_


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## Nathan (Jun 10, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> If Charles Manson was born to a drug addicted prostitute, what chance did he have?
> 
> _https://www.cnbc.com/2013/12/04/switched-at-birth-rich-parents-son-sues-for-life-of-poverty.html_


Well, there's no guarantees but he "could have" been many things noble, but of course the odds were considerably stacked against him.


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## win231 (Jun 11, 2021)

Ruthanne said:


> But if gun laws were better they wouldn't be able to get them.
> 
> Btw only 3% of mentally ill are dangerous.  Most have more fear problems.


How have laws & restrictions on illegal drugs helped?


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## Buckeye (Jun 11, 2021)

As my grandfather said, "If you lock up all the crazy folks, who will carry the keys?"


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## Della (Jun 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Ok, I am going to comment , the following is MY OPINION, nothing more. My opinion and a dollar and fifty cents will buy you a coke most anywhere but not everywhere.
> 
> This thread has linked murders, mass murderers, to mental illness.  Not all mass murderers are mentally ill.  The legal definition of mental illness, as far as crimes are concerned, is very strict and probably differs state to state.
> 
> ...


Thank you Aneeda.  This thread was getting to be offensive.  I'm glad someone was willing to stand up for the people who suffer from mental illness.


Don M. said:


> Sometime in the past, it became "politically incorrect" to label someone as being insane.  As a result, large numbers of the mentally ill get little or no help with their problems....and just wander aimlessly through society....Until they finally break down, completely.


That's because there is no such illness as "insane"  that is a legal term.  All the folks who get their knickers in a twist when someone "gets off" with an insanity plea, should know that such people usually spend more time locked up than those who go to prison.  A criminal can do as little as ten years in prison for murder, while the same crime, committed by someone who pleads insanity, can result in life in a very unpleasant lock down mental institution.  They stay until the staff decides they are cured which can be never.
--------------------------
Murder, even mass murders are committed by sane people everyday.  Think of the LA shooter who was just upset that his gambling was going badly and his wife had left him.

Some of the group pictured in the opening post are mentally ill, but not all the same illnesses.  The Sandy Hook shooter was on the autism spectrum, such people are rarely violent but his illness had gone untreated and allowed to worsen in isolation for a long time.  Others have bi-polar (that's the one treated by lithium) others have schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is considered the worst mental illness and it is treated by a variety of anti-psychotic drugs from Haldol to Abilify.  James Holmes, the one who shot people in the movie theater had schizophrenia, but had not yet been firmly diagnosed.  That's a big part of the problem.  Schizophrenia usually strikes young men in their early 20's when they are away at college.  Friends will think they are on drugs, family wont be around and they can have horrible experiences before they are treated.  The biggest danger then is not mass shootings, which are really very rare, but that they will kill themselves.  Just imagine how nightmarish it must be to feel you are losing your mind and have lost the ability to tell reality from imagination.  Hearing voices is terrifying.

Working against them are the laws that keep their families from forcing them to get help.  The patient is so paranoid, he will be afraid to go to the doctor. One thing they fear is being labelled as insane.  Laws that require the psychiatrist to report the illness to gun dealers just reinforce the patient's hesitancy to go to the doctor and infringe on patient doctor privacy.

 In most states, the family can't get help for their loved ones until they are considered "a danger to themselves or others."  So they must wait until they attempt suicide before they can be committed to a hospital.  Once on medication they can usually see the need for help, but it has to start somewhere.  We need to loosen those laws so family can step in earlier.  Maybe allowed forced commitment with a doctor's referral.

We need good mental health clinics in every town so that patients can get the medication they need.  Most can live and work like any other contributing member of the community.

*People with schizophrenia who are on medication are actually less likely to be violent than ordinary people.*

We need many more psychiatric hospitals.  Good safe. well run places,  for the ones who don't respond well to medication and need to be cared for,  just as we would care for anyone who is severely ill.

All these things are possible if we're willing to devote the tax payer money to the cause.  Other countries do much better.


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> If Charles Manson was born to a drug addicted prostitute, what chance did he have?  Although I applaud increased spending for mental health, I doubt it would have made a difference to his life.  Sadly it all comes down to an accident of birth.
> 
> _A Japanese man born to wealthy parents has been awarded about $371,000 in damages after accidentally being switched with another baby and spending decades living in poverty.
> 
> ...


so do you think that proves Nurture over nature ?


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2021)

Granted, it would be next impossible to lock-up all that need to be but. 

Why in the world did we ever close all [most] of the asylums ?

It was crazy I tell ya ........... pun intended.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 11, 2021)

Looking for the main reason for all the mass shootings should be a pretty easy one to figure out. It isn't rocket science.  If we compare two countries, that should give us the answer.

Country A and Country B have about the same rate of mental illness.

Country A has strict gun control laws.  Country B has few or none.

What is the difference in the rate of mass killings?

Of course, there are other factors involved; it is never really that simple. But piling all the blame on the mentally ill people who are not locked up in "asylums"  (what century are we living in, anyway?) is a ridiculous oversimplification.

How about religion?  Do countries with high church attendance have more mass murders than countries with little or no church attendance?

How about what is taught in the schools?  How about alcoholism?  How about the social media that are mainly used in each country? How about two-parent homes?  How about the places where kids are mainly raised by grandparents while the parents go to work? Do they have a higher rate of mass killings?

There are probably dozens of other factors in this also. Just pointing a finger at the mentally ill, most of whom are harmless, is ridiculous.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 11, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> so do you think that proves Nurture over nature ?


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 11, 2021)

Della said:


> Schizophrenia usually strikes young men in their early 20's


This would account for *some* of it. I did wonder why so many younger males go off the rails.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 11, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> so do you think that proves Nurture over nature ?


I think this particular example highlights the huge gap between rich and poor households, but you have to wonder about the man who spent his life in the poor household. If he was the product of successful parents, why couldn’t their genes give him the ability to find a way out of poverty? Tricky one this Holly.


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## mellowyellow (Jun 11, 2021)

There is so much disappointment in the world today, angry people are everywhere.


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> There is so much disappointment in the world today, angry people are everywhere.


That is so true.....


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> Granted, it would be next impossible to lock-up all that need to be but.
> 
> Why in the world did we ever close all [most] of the asylums ?
> 
> It was crazy I tell ya ........... pun intended.


Why did we close the asylums?  Because they WERE asylums, they were not treatment facilities.  Mentally ill, criminally insane, mentally retarded, severely physically disabled people and others were are lumped together in one asylum-state hospitals.

Patients were all abused, neglected, and ignored by most everyone.  They cost a great deal of money to run and violated everyone’s human rights, including IMO, the rights of the employees who were often sadistic losers who should have been patients themselves. These places still exist in many countries and are a blight on the human race.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> The Unabomber's mom was a low life alcoholic.


A ”low life alcoholic” as opposed to what?  A rich alcoholic?  An alcoholic is an alcoholic which, btw, is a illness.  “Low life” is a judge mental term of someone with an illness.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 11, 2021)

Just got notice that my joke post on AOC and "crazy eyes" was deleted because "no politics please."

I'm tired of this sort of thing and think I'll move on from SF.  I like to talk about politics, although I always try to do it in a polite, fact-based manner.  So having someone come in and tell me I can't post this or that isn't really suitable.  

Good luck to all here and enjoy your conversations.


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## Pepper (Jun 11, 2021)

I will honestly miss you very much, JimBob, my friend.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 11, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Just got notice that my joke post on AOC and "crazy eyes" was deleted because "no politics please."
> 
> I'm tired of this sort of thing and think I'll move on from SF.  I like to talk about politics, although I always try to do it in a polite, fact-based manner.  So having someone come in and tell me I can't post this or that isn't really suitable.
> 
> Good luck to all here and enjoy your conversations.


Come on, JimBob... you and I mix like oil and water, but I still enjoy your conversation and company on the forum, even though you ignore me most of the time.

Politics is just a shave of what the forum doesn't have to offer, so forget about that and keep on keeping on. Would be a drag to lose you.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Just got notice that my joke post on AOC and "crazy eyes" was deleted because "no politics please."
> 
> I'm tired of this sort of thing and think I'll move on from SF.  I like to talk about politics, although I always try to do it in a polite, fact-based manner.  So having someone come in and tell me I can't post this or that isn't really suitable.
> 
> Good luck to all here and enjoy your conversations.


This has happened to me more than a few times, but you got to do what’s best for you.  Bye


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## rgp (Jun 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Why did we close the asylums?  Because they WERE asylums, they were not treatment facilities.  Mentally ill, criminally insane, mentally retarded, severely physically disabled people and others were are lumped together in one asylum-state hospitals.
> 
> Patients were all abused, neglected, and ignored by most everyone.  They cost a great deal of money to run and violated everyone’s human rights, including IMO, the rights of the employees who were often sadistic losers who should have been patients themselves. These places still exist in many countries and are a blight on the human race.



OK then, how'bout this. The very first time someone displays behaviour that is truly "mentally ill"] ....... euthanize them.

If not ? ............. We, as a society just keep rolling the dice. ...........You, or members of your family could be next.


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## Della (Jun 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> We, as a society just keep rolling the dice. ...........You, or members of your family could be next.


Not being able to talk about guns here sure is making my typing fingers itch.


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## mrstime (Jun 11, 2021)

Well this might sound political but the average person does not need military style guns except the military!


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## Nathan (Jun 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> Why in the world did we ever close all [most] of the asylums ?


Back in the 80's the federal government ended it's  role in providing services to the mentally ill. Federal *mental*-health spending decreases by 30 percent.  
In the present day jails and prisons are loaded with inmates  that have mental health problems.


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## Della (Jun 11, 2021)

Yes. They said the mentally ill they turned out would be cared for, "in the community."  Unfortunately the community didn't have the money or skills to care for all these people.  

I partially blame, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."  People thought all the psychiatric hospitals were run by Nurse Ratchet and the only thing the patients needed was a good pep talk from Jack Nicholson, and all their brain disease would just go away.

I'd like to see someone try that in other hospitals.  Send all the people with kidney, liver and heart disease out into the world to care for themselves with a good talking to about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.


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## Lara (Jun 11, 2021)

*Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon*, has a net worth of $177 Billion as of April 20, 2021. Up $65 Billion since last year
He could take care of this in no time. You don't get more filthy rich than that.
What is he planning on doing with it? What is he waiting for??


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> Jeff Bezos has a net worth of $177 Billion as of April 20, 2021. Up $65 Million since last year.
> He could take care of this in no time. You don't get more filthy rich than that.
> What is he planning on doing with it? What is he waiting for??


You mean up $65 BILLION, Lara.


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## hawkdon (Jun 11, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Back in the 80's the federal government ended it's  role in providing services to the mentally ill. Federal *mental*-health spending decreases by 30 percent.
> In the present day jails and prisons are loaded with inmates  that have mental health problems.


If memory serves me, I believe the ACLU had a major part in closing the places. Just as they have changed the prison system....IMHO....don


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## Lara (Jun 11, 2021)

Forbes says *Jeff Bezos net worth is* $199 Billion....apparently it is multiplying at such a fast rate that it's hard to keep up with the updates.

*Here's how he spends his money...buying Real Estate, a $75 Million Private Jet, and his Space Exploration Company.*...link below
Why not take care of his neighbors first!

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-bezos-net-worth-life-spending-2018-8#:~:text=Bezos'%20net%20worth%20is%20an,and%20his%20space%20exploration%20company.

Someday soon he can just buy China and Russia and we won't have to worry about them anymore.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 11, 2021)

I think @911 best expressed what my thoughts on this issue are (so far...I've only read the replies on page 1).


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK then, how'bout this. The very first time someone displays behaviour that is truly "mentally ill"] ....... euthanize them.
> 
> If not ? ............. We, as a society just keep rolling the dice. ...........You, or members of your family could be next.


Members of my family are/were mentally ill.  My uncle served and was at Pearl Harbor.  He was never the same after the attack.  Spent the entire rest of his life at home with his mom until she died.  Then lived with a sister until he died.  Never had a life.

*And you would euthanize him?  *

JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE A LOWER OPINION OF SOMEONE’s OPINION, *They reset the bar.  *


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

Della said:


> Yes. They said the mentally ill they turned out would be cared for, "in the community."  Unfortunately the community didn't have the money or skills to care for all these people.
> 
> I partially blame, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."  People thought all the psychiatric hospitals were run by Nurse Ratchet and the only thing the patients needed was a good pep talk from Jack Nicholson, and all their brain disease would just go away.
> 
> I'd like to see someone try that in other hospitals.  Send all the people with kidney, liver and heart disease out into the world to care for themselves with a good talking to about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.


That happens now-if you are poor, if you have no adequate insurance, if you are colored.


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## win231 (Jun 11, 2021)

mrstime said:


> Well this might sound political but the average person does not need military style guns except the military!


And, the average driver does not need a Ferrari, except race car drivers.


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> That happens now-if you are poor, if you have no adequate insurance, if you are colored.


Not in this country... everyone is equal regardless of colour or financial status when it comes to medical help..although if you have private medical insurance you'll get seen quicker, but that accounts for everyone.. no colour bar..I'm shocked that is still a thing in the USA... ( but for the sake of the no politics rule I won't say anything further, but I'm actually stunned, I thought all that colour prejudice was done and finished over there)


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## ohioboy (Jun 11, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ...but I'm actually stunned, I thought all that colour prejudice was done and finished over there)


NEVER. As long as hatred exists, so will prejudice, ask Dred Scott.


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## Lara (Jun 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> That happens now-if you are poor, if you have no adequate insurance, if you are colored.


I worked in a large USA hospital for 8 years and never once saw people of color treated differently than anyone else. But that is not what this thread is about. It's about intelligent solutions to the problems of mass murderers.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Not in this country... everyone is equal regardless of colour or financial status when it comes to medical help..although if you have private medical insurance you'll get seen quicker, but that accounts for everyone.. no colour bar..I'm shocked that is still a thing in the USA... ( but for the sake of the no politics rule I won't say anything further, but I'm actually stunned, I thought all that colour prejudice was done and finished over there)


Really?  You thought that?  I’m stunned .

I was sure you had heard, on the forum, of the Black Lives Matter movement, in the news from the USA of new restrictive voting measures in certain states, of the removal of certain statues from various buildings, and a certain southern  flag, the  protests, the riots, the unrest.  You missed all that?

WOW.  (The above mentioned topics are meant to be informative and not political.).


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> I worked in a large USA hospital for 8 years and never once saw people of color treated differently than anyone else. But that is not what this thread is about. It's about intelligent solutions to the problems of mass murderers.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (Jun 11, 2021)

Well maybe this guy was mentally ill but nothing could prevent him from legally owning a gun or an arsenal.

Happened yesterday in Florida:

"During the news conference, Palm Beach County Sheriff Ric Bradshaw said the shooting could have avoided if someone had said something to authorities. That's because *Wall had posted on social media that he "wanted to kill people and children*," Sheriff Bradshaw said.

The sheriff said Wall's ex-wife told detectives he'd been acting strangely before the shooting, saying *he thought he was being followed and was paranoid."*


https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/r...oting/67-dcdd6b19-4306-47fd-aa00-3bb9a5f82d81


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## Lara (Jun 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> As we put our heads together to "Fix our Mental Healthcare Facilities that are seriously *understaffed, underpaid, overworked, unfunded.*..total failures...here are ideas we've started with:
> 1.  Start making Good Use of Mainstream Media for a change to Educate our country on what is really going on, what we're lacking.
> 2.  Get the attention of all the people with assets in the multi-billions.....
> 3. @hollydolly said: community control...see post #5
> The Government isn't going to do anything...most of our mental facilities were closed a decade ago"





JimBob1952 said:


> Maybe the concept should be a sort of Mayo Clinic "center of excellence" for mental health at the national level, and local clinics/small hospitals for treatment at the local level.





Murrmurr said:


> If states would then be expected or maybe financially rewarded to follow the Center of Excellence model, that could work.
> 
> *People* need to expect and demand better. That's what I'm getting at.





JimBob1952 said:


> Couldn't agree with you more.  Why we put up with medieval-era mental health practices (or 21st century overreliance on pharmaceuticals) is a mystery.
> 
> We could also save money.  I remember seeing something to the effect that a homeless person typically costs his city hundreds of thousands of dollars in ER visits, police interventions and other activities over a few years.  Getting that person treated (as most homeless people have mental health and/or substance abuse problems) and off the streets could easily pay for itself.


These are only some ideas from posts 5, 26, 31, and 32 for how to help develop a solution to the mental health care issues that plague the mass murderers and to begin effective resolutions  for our Mental Health Care system.


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## Pecos (Jun 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK then, how'bout this. The very first time someone displays behaviour that is truly "mentally ill"] ....... euthanize them.
> 
> If not ? ............. We, as a society just keep rolling the dice. ...........You, or members of your family could be next.


Oh, good grief!


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 11, 2021)

The world is in such a mess, I suspect normally healthy, happy individuals are tipping over into mental illness. Not the poor souls with serious psychosis , just ordinary everyday folk and it’s terrifying.


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Really?  You thought that?  I’m stunned .
> 
> *I was sure you had heard, on the forum, of the Black Lives Matter movement, in the news from the USA of new restrictive voting measures in certain states, of the removal of certain statues from various buildings, and a certain southern  flag, the  protests, the riots, the unrest.  You missed all that?*
> 
> WOW.  (The above mentioned topics are meant to be informative and not political.).


No I didn't miss that, nor did I miss the million people here in London protesting on behalf of the BLM in the USA,  but I presumed that they were essentially protesting about being picked on and arrested & even  killed  by the law more than whites for lesser crimes .....I had no idea that non-whites were sidelined  in the USA  when it comes to medical issues..none whatsoever.. that's just simply unbelievable and appalling


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## hollydolly (Jun 11, 2021)

Lara said:


> I worked in a large USA hospital for 8 years and never once saw people of color treated differently than anyone else. But that is not what this thread is about. It's about intelligent solutions to the problems of mass murderers.


I won't continue with this , because I don't want this thread closed down for being political.. but I'm pleased I saw your post Lara..thank goodness ,..


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 11, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> No I didn't miss that, nor did I miss the million people here in London protesting on behalf of the BLM in the USA,  but I presumed that they were essentially protesting about being picked on and arrested & even  killed  by the law more than whites for lesser crimes .....I had no idea that non-whites were sidelined  in the USA  when it comes to medical issues..none whatsoever.. that's just simply unbelievable and appalling


@hollydolly google the treatment of people of color in the USA by the medical profession.  There is a recent study from 2019 that I saw.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 12, 2021)

If your dream is to be a great serial killer, all you need is a pair of hands; but to be a great mass killer , you need  an automatic weapon.


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## Sunny (Jun 12, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If your dream is to be a great serial killer, all you need is a pair of hands; but to be a great mass killer , you need  an automatic weapon.


Well, there are probably other ways to do it, Fuzzybuddy, if you think hard enough, but basically you're right. The automatic weapons certainly make it a lot easier.

I have never yet heard any reason on earth that anyone (outside of the military) would need or want an automatic weapon, unless they want to be able to kill as many people as possible. Which certainly is mental illness!


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## rgp (Jun 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Members of my family are/were mentally ill.  My uncle served and was at Pearl Harbor.  He was never the same after the attack.  Spent the entire rest of his life at home with his mom until she died.  Then lived with a sister until he died.  Never had a life.
> 
> *And you would euthanize him?  *
> 
> JUST WHEN YOU THINK YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE A LOWER OPINION OF SOMEONE’s OPINION, *They reset the bar.  *



 Then what's your answer/opinion. One is either part of the problem or part of the solution.

 BTW, it was a scenario suggestion........Not an opinion.


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## rgp (Jun 12, 2021)

Lara said:


> *Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon*, has a net worth of $177 Billion as of April 20, 2021. Up $65 Billion since last year
> He could take care of this in no time. You don't get more filthy rich than that.
> What is he planning on doing with it? What is he waiting for??



 What do you suggest he do ?


----------



## rgp (Jun 12, 2021)

Lara said:


> Forbes says *Jeff Bezos net worth is* $199 Billion....apparently it is multiplying at such a fast rate that it's hard to keep up with the updates.
> 
> *Here's how he spends his money...buying Real Estate, a $75 Million Private Jet, and his Space Exploration Company.*...link below
> Why not take care of his neighbors first!
> ...




 So are you suggesting how he should spend _*his *_money ? 

 How much [on a percentage basis] do you spend on your neighbors ?

 From most that I have read & heard, many of these billionaires are actually quite generous with their money.


----------



## Chet (Jun 12, 2021)

Mass murder isn't that common of an occurrence when compared to a weekend in Chicago and some other large cities in the US.


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## Mike (Jun 12, 2021)

I have always maintained that the Victorians had the right
idea about lots of things and one was mental health or the
control of it, they had these great big buildings that were
called "Insane Asylums", the NHS changed the name to
"Mental Hospitals", but as they were all in lovely locations
with large grounds, they sold them and now there mental
health problems,

Persistent criminals, even those who carry out Petty Crimes
should I believe be incarcerated in an Asylum, this seems to
hold a stigma, much bigger than that of being sent to Jail.

That would cut back a lot of crime I think.

Mike.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 12, 2021)

Mike said:


> I have always maintained that the Victorians had the right
> idea about lots of things and one was mental health or the
> control of it, they had these great big buildings that were
> called "Insane Asylums", the NHS changed the name to
> ...


I think any man who treats a women badly, even a little bit badly, repeatedly or not is guilty of repeated abuse, petty or otherwise, and should be sent to your asylum.  Bullies, of either sex, should be incarcerated as well.

Especially the two year old bullies who throw sand and rocks and spit and hit.  Nasty little things they are.  Bullies usually move on to bigger crimes, and, of course, you must be mentally ill to bully anyone.

Repeated traffic tickets, shoplifting, price changing, trespassing, harassing, swearing in public, loitering, passionate public displays of affection, and any other repeated petty crimes or offensive behavior surely indicates mental illness; and rates incarcerating the repeated offender.

Let us fill the asylums up!!!

I could go on, but why bother?  After all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 12, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I think any man who treats a women badly, even a little bit badly, repeatedly or not is guilty of repeated abuse, petty or otherwise, and should be sent to your asylum.  Bullies, of either sex, should be incarcerated as well.
> 
> Especially the two year old bullies who throw sand and rocks and spit and hit.  Nasty little things they are.  Bullies usually move on to bigger crimes, and, of course, you must be mentally ill to bully anyone.
> 
> ...


Aneeda are you ok ?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 12, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Aneeda are you ok ?


Yup, I am fine.  Thanks for asking


----------



## Lara (Jun 13, 2021)

rgp said:


> So are you suggesting how he should spend _*his *_money ?
> 
> How much [on a percentage basis] do you spend on your neighbors ?
> 
> From most that I have read & heard, many of these billionaires are actually quite generous with their money.


I've pretty much left my thread because of those who can't seem to focus on mental health but rather on guns and politics and some weird stuff....and you know who she is...A. I just don't discuss guns and politics. It's over-discussed. But since you are focused on Mental Health I'm happy to answer your questions.

I don't share how much I give to others because it can be construed as boastful, but I will say that the Bible says it should be at least "10% of our first fruits" (meaning our gross income, not net).

However, if my gross income or net worth was as obscene as $200 Billion or any of the other richest 1% in the country then I would flip that 10% to be...me keeping 10% (or much less) for myself (and family) and donating 90% (or more) to charity and worthy causes such as Mental Health Care and neurological research that would benefit the entire planet....and that's what I suggest regarding "_how he should spend *his* money_".

But you're right, I should not have assumed that just because he's buying real estate, exploring space, and buying a $75 Million Private Jet, that it means he's not doing enough for others. Personally, if I had $200 Billion, I would not buy a $75 Million Jet though.

I just read the full article on what Jeff Bezos is doing with his money. I'm not impressed but he's not as public about it as Bill Gates is.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 13, 2021)

Lara said:


> I've pretty much left my thread because of those who can't seem to focus on mental health but rather on guns and politics and some weird stuff. I just don't discuss guns and politics. It's over-discussed. But since you are focused on Mental Health I'm happy to answer your questions.
> 
> I don't share how much I give to others because it can be construed as boastful, but I will say that the Bible says it should be at least "10% of our first fruits" (meaning our gross income, not net).
> 
> ...


Since money and the Bible has been brought up by the OP, just let me say that the early Catholic church required members of the priesthood to give up everything they owned to the church.  It was more about greed, IMO, than gaining a devout man for the priesthood.  And the Bible was written by men after the death of JC.

I have doubts about the “10%” rule.  I believe it is written in the Bible that JC said something about if you are to follow me you must give up everything-to a rich man.  JC didn’t say, as far as I know, give up 10%.  I am sure @Lara can provide the exact info from the Bible, as my paraphrasing is pathetic.

I believe JUDGING others for how they spend their money or how they should spend their money is also addressed in the Bible.  As in we are not supposed to judge the actions of others.  In addition, it says something about a gold coin and JC replies leave to Caesar what is Caesars and leave to me what is mine-but this might have a discussion about taxes.

But I agree with Lara.  If I had 200 Billion dollars, I would not buy a jet, no matter how much it cost.  I am not supposed to fly.


----------



## Buckeye (Jun 13, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If your dream is to be a great serial killer, all you need is a pair of hands; but to be a great mass killer ,* you need  an automatic weapon.*


Nope  - all Timothy McVeigh needed was a truck load of common fertilizer and the 9/11 folks only needed a box cutter and a plane ticket.


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## Lara (Jun 13, 2021)

Aneeda, you said your "paraphrasing is pathetic." ...Yes, as is everything else you said

I'm sorry but I won't argue religion nor politics in a thread about how to help those with Mental Health issues.

And I won't respond to any private conversation messages you send me, as you did, threatening to try to get this thread closed.


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## Sunny (Jun 13, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I think any man who treats a women badly, even a little bit badly, repeatedly or not is guilty of repeated abuse, petty or otherwise, and should be sent to your asylum.  Bullies, of either sex, should be incarcerated as well.
> 
> Especially the two year old bullies who throw sand and rocks and spit and hit.  Nasty little things they are.  Bullies usually move on to bigger crimes, and, of course, you must be mentally ill to bully anyone.
> 
> ...


Aneeda, your list of offenses requiring incarceration in a mental asylum is brilliant! But you omitted a few. How about women who wear white after Labor Day?  Setting a table with the large fork on the left, instead of the salad fork?  Smoking anything, anywhere?  Constantly having one's nose a couple of inches from the cell phone?  (Well, maybe I'd agree with that one.  )

For the admirers of Victorian morality, google the lyrics of the song "My Object So Sublime" from Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado. They had it right!

My object so sublime I shall achieve in time:
To let the punishment fit the crime....

All prosy, dull society sinners who chatter and bleat and bore
Are sent to hear sermons from mystical Germans who preach from 10 till 4....

and so on.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 13, 2021)

Lara said:


> And I won't respond to any private conversation messages you send me, as you did, threatening to try to get this thread closed.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 13, 2021)

Pepper said:


>


 *l did not threaten you @Lara.*

In a post you said that I wanted to start posting political posts so the thread would be closed.  So I send you a PRIVATE message, which I will go look at and print here word for word, rather than paraphrase, and invite others who want to view it, to view it.  I think I can do that, I will try.

But, I would like to see the thread closed and removed.  I find @rgp post inappropriate, apparently you did not.


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## Pepper (Jun 13, 2021)

*Inappropriate*.  Who died and left you boss?  I'm deeply offended by your efforts to censor because YOU don't like something, no matter what your reason.
I'm speechless.  I have no speech.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 13, 2021)

Pepper said:


> *Inappropriate*.  Who died and left you boss?  I'm deeply offended by your efforts to censor because YOU don't like something, no matter what your reason.
> I'm speechless.  I have no speech.


It’s an opinion, I am entitled to my opinion and I think suggesting that the mentally ill be euthanized, is inappropriate.  You @Pepper are free to think it is.  @Pepper I invited you to read what I wrote to @Lara.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 13, 2021)

@Pepper perhaps you missed @rgp post #75.

Here is what I wrote in a private conversation to @Lara in response to her post #2 and 3.

*i titled it “Locked Thread”. And I said “Actually, I think the thread should not only locked but removed.  But I am not in charge.  If I were, it would have been locked as soon as it was started.”*

_This statement contains no threat as Lara claimed.  And it is clear that I am giving an opinion as in “I think ” such and such should be done.  Anyone who wants an “invite” to read this private conversation statement, for themselves, let me know.  I will invite you to the conversation._

As for @rgp statement that the mentally ill should be euthanized, post #75.  I found the statement to be inappropriate and despite @Pepper outrage, I still find the statement inappropriate.  I’ll go a step further it is offensive and disgusting to me.

One of my great granddaughters starting showing signs of mental illness at age 3.  She is now 5.  Who on the forum would like to euthanize her?  -I could say more, but why bother.  Who died and left me boss?  @Pepper  Well, I am the boss of my opinion as you are the boss of yours.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 13, 2021)

Lara said:


> Aneeda, you said your "paraphrasing is pathetic." ...Yes, as is everything else you said
> 
> I'm sorry but I won't argue religion nor politics in a thread about how to help those with Mental Health issues.
> 
> And I won't respond to any private conversation messages you send me, as you did, threatening to try to get this thread closed.


You are entitled to refer to everything I have said as pathetic.  It is your opinion.   But I do notice that you often attack others when they question what you write, as you have attacked me.  I also notice when you are disagreed with you claim a discussion is an argument; which it is not.  But we have discussed this before.  No need to do so now.

I have already noted that I did not threaten you.  I have not attacked you.  And, I did not expect a response from you as I simply made a private response to something you said to me, to avoid open conflict; which you apparently prefer.  But, again, no response necessary or expected.


----------



## ohioboy (Jun 14, 2021)

Mike said:


> Persistent criminals, even those who carry out Petty Crimes
> should I believe be incarcerated in an Asylum, this seems to
> hold a stigma, much bigger than that of being sent to Jail.


Fortunately, the United States Constitution does not permit it, even for felony recidivism.


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## Della (Jun 14, 2021)

Just looking at Lara's awesome thread title again and wondering about, "fix these people before it happens." How are we supposed to know someone is going to commit a mass murder before it happens?  How would they be fixed? 

The large majority of people who have a mental illness never do anything violent.  You can't go by whether or not a person has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital because those are the very ones who get help and start medication and once medicated they are _less_ likely than the average guy to do something violent.  Actually the most fatal mental illness, the one with most hospital admittance,  is anorexia and I don't think we have to worry about them as mass murderers. 

Should we ask human resources workers to figure out which disgruntled employee is most likely to come back  and kill everyone?

I suppose we could use RPG's criteria and euthanize anyone who does anything weird, but then after reading his post again, I think RPG himself might be the first one to go.

Part of living in a free society is that we don't seriously make these judgements about others.  We don't expect violence from people based on their looks or their health problems or even their eccentric behavior.  Because who's going to make the rules?  I'm sitting here right now wearing a t-shirt that clashes with my pajama bottoms!  Should I be fixed before it gets worse?


----------



## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

Thank you for this on-topic post, Della. You asked how do we know someone is going to commit mass murder before it happens. Well, let me share my story with you. We can't predict the future but that doesn't mean there aren't any men out there with uncontrollable anger and violent tendencies that need an evaluation first and then treatment before they hurt someone or many. Here's my story I've never shared online....but needs to be told.

I've known one and it's frightening beyond measure. In fact, he told me he wanted to kill me and others. I rolled up the windows and locked the doors but I wasn't fast enough and he had half his arm in the window. Believe it or not, I wanted to help him because I believed he would hurt lots of people if I didn't. He was big and strong and would charge at me and then puff his chest out to scare me. I could share so much but would take a book.

After he broke many heavy items, throwing them through the air, and spending time in prison at the age of 17-18, he finally agreed to go to a clinic for an evaluation....but he didn't think anything was wrong with him. Nothing. He even told me he wanted to shoot up a church just like one of the mass murderers did. And had watched instructions online for all sorts of things to carry it out. The police only made things worse and prison made him even more worse..then let him go....so I was holding off to go to the police...yet.

I know you're thinking he should have been locked up and thrown away the key but I truly believed there was goodness deep down inside...very deep but I felt he could be reached and changed for the good. I wasn't ready to give up on this young man. So...

I got him to apply for the Conservation Corps that takes young men out of prison and that was an amazing help...but...when he was finished he went back to his old self.

So then I got him to agree to go to a mental health clinic...he filled out the paperwork there as if he had no problems! He told them nothing was wrong with him and it was me. He had himself and them so convinced they looked at me as the crazy one. I wanted to fill it out truthfully for him and of course wasn't allowed. They took him behind closed doors and said he had no problems when they finished.

Also, he had no money to pay them for help. So they had no desire to help him imo.  It was a "Non-profit" but that's doesn't mean you don't have to pay. It only means they'll set up a payment schedule. I wasn't going to pay big money out of my pocket and he had no insurance.

He then agreed to go to a mental health facility. We walked in the door through 2 armed police officers and sat down to have him committed. They asked him if he thought he was threat to society or to himself. He convinced them that he wasn't a threat. They dismissed us.

I gave up with the government and the system but followed him for years and years to protect society from him. I would get calls many nights having to talk him through stuff and he traveled from town to town on the run. Living homeless. Drugs. My kids were worried sick he would come and kill me. But I felt I was the only one to protect society from him...and I still believed he could change.

To make a long story short...well, too late for that lol. He is now a grown man, a Christian, has a steady job, an apartment, a car, no alcohol, no drugs, and a little rough around the edges but doing much better socially. He "feels" for once. He used to have no conscience, no love for others. That has all changed.

He says he wants to take care of me when I get old....uh...no lol....I told him my kids have already offered.

This is why I started this thread. It's my heart and soul but unfortunately has had some bumps in the road. It's also had 5 or 6 solutions suggested so that's great!


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## rgp (Jun 14, 2021)

Della said:


> Just looking at Lara's awesome thread title again and wondering about, "fix these people before it happens." How are we supposed to know someone is going to commit a mass murder before it happens?  How would they be fixed?
> 
> The large majority of people who have a mental illness never do anything violent.  You can't go by whether or not a person has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital because those are the very ones who get help and start medication and once medicated they are _less_ likely than the average guy to do something violent.  Actually the most fatal mental illness, the one with most hospital admittance,  is anorexia and I don't think we have to worry about them as mass murderers.
> 
> ...


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## Don M. (Jun 14, 2021)

Another weekend, and 4 more mass shootings.  Austin, Cleveland, Chicago and Savannah took the hits this weekend.  This lunacy just seems to show no signs of slowing down.  

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/4-mass-shootings-6-hours-173448621.html


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## rgp (Jun 14, 2021)

Della said:


> Just looking at Lara's awesome thread title again and wondering about, "fix these people before it happens." How are we supposed to know someone is going to commit a mass murder before it happens?  How would they be fixed?
> 
> The large majority of people who have a mental illness never do anything violent.  You can't go by whether or not a person has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital because those are the very ones who get help and start medication and once medicated they are _less_ likely than the average guy to do something violent.  Actually the most fatal mental illness, the one with most hospital admittance,  is anorexia and I don't think we have to worry about them as mass murderers.
> 
> ...




  "I suppose we could use RPG's criteria and euthanize anyone who does anything weird, but then after reading his post again, I think RPG himself might be the first one to go."

 Well then, your opinion of me, is much higher than my opinion of you ...........


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> Thank you for this on-topic post, Della. You asked how do we know someone is going to commit mass murder before it happens. Well, let me share my story with you. We can't predict the future but that doesn't mean there aren't any men out there with uncontrollable anger and violent tendencies that need an evaluation first and then treatment before they hurt someone or many. Here's my story I've never shared online....but needs to be told.
> 
> I've known one and it's frightening beyond measure. In fact, he told me he wanted to kill me and others. I rolled up the windows and locked the doors but I wasn't fast enough and he had half his arm in the window. Believe it or not, I wanted to help him because I believed he would hurt lots of people if I didn't. He was big and strong and would charge at me and then puff his chest out to scare me. I could share so much but would take a book.
> 
> ...


Lara,

I read your post several times and I'm not sure I understand what was responsible for turning this man from a danger to a self-sufficient stable member of society.

If it was having you in his corner as a sounding board or guiding light then maybe we need to consider a program similar to AA or Big Brother/Sister where some behavior modification along with a personal sponsor are combined to assist and monitor an individual until they get on their feet.

It might be a way to get some people into the system as minor problems surface instead of waiting until a major crime is committed.   

I still don't believe that it should ever be an option to automatically assume a person is a danger because of physical appearance or eccentric behavior.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 14, 2021)

Della said:


> Just looking at Lara's awesome thread title again and wondering about, "fix these people before it happens." How are we supposed to know someone is going to commit a mass murder before it happens?  How would they be fixed?
> 
> The large majority of people who have a mental illness never do anything violent.  You can't go by whether or not a person has been admitted to a psychiatric hospital because those are the very ones who get help and start medication and once medicated they are _less_ likely than the average guy to do something violent.  Actually the most fatal mental illness, the one with most hospital admittance,  is anorexia and I don't think we have to worry about them as mass murderers.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you said about RPG, it’s funny, as human beings we always think we are fine and it’s the “other” guy thats crazy.

As for wearing a top that clashes with your pg bottoms, hmm, were you at Walmart?  Cause anything goes at Walmart.  . I recently went our for lunch with my daughter and my great granddaughter.  A younger man was staring at me, he was probably in his thirties.  I figured he was not admiring my dumpy older shape. But I knew what he was thinking.  (Yes, I can read minds.)

I said to him “I know my pants, which are stripped, don’t go with my shirt but I got a lot of stripped pants at a good price and I don’t have any plain shirts to go with them.”  (The colors in my pants and shirt did match).  He says, turning a little red, “oh, my mom wears a lot of crazy stuff too.”   

I think, @Della, you are safer in the fashion department than I am


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## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> Lara,
> 
> I read your post several times and I'm not sure I understand what was responsible for turning this man from a danger to a self-sufficient stable member of society.
> 
> ...



First, thank you for reading my long story....3 times no less...you're a saint, Aunt Bea 

The first things that helped break through his issues was asking him to fill out an application for the Conservation Corps for males and females. Not all were ex-prisoners, in fact most were college kids. The Conservation Corps tries to accept about 3 ex-prisoners per group of about 12(?).

This young man was within their age range of acceptance, and seemed to really click with the whole blazing trails in the National Parks. He was so strong and worked hard clearing trails, cutting down trees, using a chain saw (eek), etc. He *experienced accomplishments* while enjoying the woods. He ended up *making friends, learning teamwork, and being sociable*.

He was given specific responsibilities he thought were cool. He was "*excited" about something for the first time*...as much as his emotions would allow at first. In addition to clearing trails, he was put in charge of the tools...I know, when I heard that I thought eek...tools?! Tools are like weapons. But it all worked out...it's an amazing organization but they don't accept just anyone.

He was completely normal when he got finished with that and was given the opportunity to work his way up to a leadership position. There is a cut-off age so he procrastinated and missed out.

Yes Aunt Bea. Great suggestion and different than any in the thread so far...I'm not so sure about AA because I tried that for him and he wanted nothing to do with it....they aren't social creatures. But *something like a Big Brother and a personal sponsor to monitor the individual is a great idea*...and exactly what I was to him though not with an organization. I chose to help on my own which not everyone as the time or desire or energy etc to do that. Plus I was driven to help him...and to protect society from him.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 14, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> Lara,
> 
> I read your post several times and I'm not sure I understand what was responsible for turning this man from a danger to a self-sufficient stable member of society.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don’t think stalking a mentally ill person would somehow cure or help their mental illness.  As I said, on other posts, I used to do foster care for mentally ill teenagers.  These boys and girls attended at special school, from 8 in the morning to 5 at night, where they received both “normal“ teaching and intensive treatment.

They wore a paper on their backs  (hard to explain) where their treatment was tracked and checked off throughout the day.  The environment was very strict.  Then they came home to us, to learn life in a family.  They were not allowed to go to friends houses or be unsupervised at all.

Some of them had to be hospitalized at times on locked wards and then returned to us.  Eventually some entered regular school or left our home for locked groups homes, or juvenile hall, and then locked group homes.

I don’t think any of them would have benefited from being stalked.  None of them, as far as I know, became killers.


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## DaveA (Jun 14, 2021)

Sunny mentioned; "Setting a table with the large fork on the left, instead of the salad fork?"

Now we're getting into serious infractions.  I'm not sure that there's any form of remedial action or punishment for an offense this serious.  At a level with giving someone the finger.  Hope none of the guests are "packing"  or have a bag of fertilizer.  It could become a chaotic meal.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 14, 2021)

DaveA said:


> Sunny mentioned; "Setting a table with the large fork on the left, instead of the salad fork?"
> 
> Now we're getting into serious infractions.  I'm not sure that there's any form of remedial action or punishment for an offense this serious.  At a level with giving someone the finger.  Hope none of the guests are "packing"  or have a bag of fertilizer.  It could become a chaotic meal.


I am still mulling over the fact that some people still set a table at home and eat with two forks.  The punishment for always eating in front of the tv with a spoon, at age 74, might be so severe an infraction that I don't want to hear about.  I am frightened, but relieved that I don’t live next to @rgp.  Or do I?


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## rgp (Jun 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I am still mulling over the fact that some people still set a table at home and eat with two forks.  The punishment for always eating in front of the tv with a spoon, at age 74, might be so severe an infraction that I don't want to hear about.  I am frightened, but relieved that I don’t live next to @rgp.  Or do I?





Aneeda72 said:


> I am still mulling over the fact that some people still set a table at home and eat with two forks.  The punishment for always eating in front of the tv with a spoon, at age 74, might be so severe an infraction that I don't want to hear about.  I am frightened, but relieved that I don’t live next to @rgp.  Or do I?





 "but relieved that I don’t live next to @rgp. Or do I? "


 Now there's a two-way street .......... I don't want you in the same zip-code !!


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## rgp (Jun 14, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> @Pepper perhaps you missed @rgp post #75.
> 
> Here is what I wrote in a private conversation to @Lara in response to her post #2 and 3.
> 
> ...



 "As for @rgp statement that the mentally ill should be euthanized, post #75.  I found the statement to be inappropriate and despite @Pepper outrage, I still find the statement inappropriate.  I’ll go a step further it is offensive and disgusting to me."

 Again, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution .......... so what's your answer to it ?

 I went to the extreme , in a non serious manner , what's your solution ?


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## Tom 86 (Jun 14, 2021)

Our State closed its mental hospital about 8 years ago.  They said Insurance would not pay for treatments & the people in there had no means of paying for it.  So they dumped about 400 people out in the streets. People were getting helped & returned to society with meds.  

  So as Remy says not profitable for any Company or State.


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## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Our State closed its mental hospital about 8 years ago.  They said Insurance would not pay for treatments & the people in there had no means of paying for it.  So they dumped about 400 people out in the streets. People were getting helped & returned to society with meds.
> 
> So as Remy says not profitable for any Company or State.


That's why we need to get Elon Musk (Tesla) and Jeff Bezos (Amazon) to combine their $400 Billion and share a little for neurological research and treatments. Easy Peasy for them. Wow. What a way for them to make a difference in the world. In a few years they'll have a Trillion. 

Apparently Elon Musk has more than Jeff Bezos but together, $400 Billion is a conservative estimate. It's multiplying so fast no one knows from one moment to the next. It's an obscene amount of money unless they can help humanity with it.


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## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

But here's the thing....Jeff Bezos wants to use his $200 Billion (and growing) to colonize the planets. Seriously, I read that.
He wants all the elite rich to live on their own planet.


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## hollydolly (Jun 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> But here's the thing....Jeff Bezos wants to use his $200 Billion (and growing) to colonize the planets. Seriously, I read that.
> He wants all the elite rich to live on their own planet.


LOL...I read that too..but I honestly thing Bezos and co already live on their own little planets...


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## ohioboy (Jun 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> But here's the thing....Jeff Bezos wants to use his $200 Billion (and growing) to colonize the planets. Seriously, I read that.
> He wants all the elite rich to live on their own planet.


Only 1 possible selection, Mars. Venus (the hottest planet) and Mercury are too dang hot, the rest are Gas giants/Ice giants, no detectable surface. After Mars it would have to be a satellite like Triton, still, TOO  cold.


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## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

Or what will happen is Bezos will colonize Mars but they'll all end up with mental illnesses they can't cure and mass murder each other because he totally missed the point.


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## ohioboy (Jun 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> Or what will happen is Bezos will colonize Mars but they'll all end up with mental illnesses they can't cure and mass murder each other because he totally missed the point.


Well, they sure can't call a taxi to drive to Jupiter.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 14, 2021)

rgp said:


> "As for @rgp statement that the mentally ill should be euthanized, post #75.  I found the statement to be inappropriate and despite @Pepper outrage, I still find the statement inappropriate.  I’ll go a step further it is offensive and disgusting to me."
> 
> Again, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution .......... so what's your answer to it ?
> 
> I went to the extreme , in a non serious manner , what's your solution ?


Please be more specific-my solution to what?

The USA is moving away from the death penalty.  It has pretty much moved away from state hospitals for the mentally ill except in the most extreme cases.  And, I agree, some people are so ill they need hospitalization, perhaps for life.

But mass shooters are a different breed.  IMO, the majority of them are not mentally ill and I believe research has shown this.  Most of them are frustrated individuals, people in a lot of mental pain and anguish who have not been able to get whatever help they need.

I believe, for many of these shooters, it’s not about killing innocents, it’s about giving pain to the friends and family of those innocents.  A type of new bulling as in “how DO YOU FEEL” now that you have experienced great loss.  Just my opinion.

Many successful suicides kill themselves to make those left behind feel guilty.  Cutters cut themselves because often physical pain is more bearable than emotional pain.   Mass Shooters may feel too much instead of to little.  It’s hard to know since most mass shooters kill themselves.

The young who kill often have such little knowledge of self, they often don’t recognize the existence of others.  The young think they are invincible and in computer games, the dead come back to life.  They truely do not realize what they have done.  It’s so complicated.

But you cannot assume a shooter is mentally ill.  You can assume a shooter is very very angry and frustrated with their life; and wants others to feel their pain.  You cannot fix a human being, a human being is not a car.  You can not predict when someone will becomes a shooter.

*There is NO solution.  Each case is different.  Each shooter is different.  This is not a one size fits all situation.  IMO.*


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## Sunny (Jun 14, 2021)

This is two years old. so I don't know if it's still current.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/08/jeff-bezos-mount-everest-is-a-garden-paradise-compared-to-mars.html


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## Lara (Jun 14, 2021)

How To Fix The American Healthcare System for Good
_Written by...Christina Kay is a first-year MPH student in Population and Family Health_

In the '50s and '60s, Americans lobbied for the closure of these facilities, which were both ineffective and inhumane. Instead, experts proposed a system of “community-based care,” where individuals with mental illness could live with their families or in group homes while receiving outpatient treatment and participating in day programs.

The thing is, this was a two-step process where the second step was forgotten. The institutions closed, but the replacement system was never built. Instead, many of the people living in these facilities ended up homeless.

The intervening decades have shown that mental health care is not a problem that can be solved by ignoring it and hoping it will go away. When we don’t provide services and housing for those who live with mental illness, those people don’t disappear. They end up on the streets, and increasingly, in jails and prisons, which are some of the largest providers of mental health care in the country.

That’s a big problem. In seeking to liberate people with severe mental illness from institutions, we created a new system of institutionalization with a different name.

The good news is, we can fix this. We can start by building the promised system of community-based care. This begins with creating small group homes in communities across the country where individuals with mental illness can live indefinitely for an affordable price. Unlike the institutions of the past, group homes house only around a dozen people each and are staffed with social workers who run them like family homes, not hospitals. We also must ensure that there are a sufficient number of outpatient clinics that are geographically and financially accessible, as well as hospitals equipped to deal with psychiatric emergencies in each community.

But this solution is not just about high-level policy decisions; it involves all Americans. We need communities across the country to step up and say “Yes, we will host a group home for people living with mental illness in our community.” There is no room for Not In My Backyard rhetoric here. The man sleeping on the sidewalk over whom you step on your way to the subway is already in your hypothetical backyard.

Some will say that a plan like this is too expensive. But what they do not see is how expensive it is to maintain the mangled system we already have.

The cost of doing nothing is huge: it’s the $2 billion of annual federal funding to community nonprofits helping the homeless across the nation, and it’s the $168,000 a year per person that it costs the state of New York to keep someone imprisoned. It’s also the untraceable millions that individual citizens and churches give to people who ask for help and the cost of treating an uninsured person who turns up in the emergency room having a mental health crisis. By redistributing these funds wasted on maintaining the status quo, we will spend no more and the results will be substantially more sensible and humane.

There is no reason to keep waiting, watching the so-called “revolving door” of people with mental illness cycling through homelessness, jails, and hospitals. With an initial investment in housing and a commitment from communities to finally provide the community-based care we promised 70 years ago, we can create real change in the lives of the 9.8 million Americans who experience severe mental illness. It should be an easy decision: continue throwing away billions of dollars on a broken system or use those funds to create a lasting solution to take care of vulnerable Americans. Which would you choose?

_Christina Kay is a first-year MPH student in Population and Family Health._


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> How To Fix The American Healthcare System for Good
> 
> In the '50s and '60s, Americans lobbied for the closure of these facilities, which were both ineffective and inhumane. Instead, experts proposed a system of “community-based care,” where individuals with mental illness could live with their families or in group homes while receiving outpatient treatment and participating in day programs.
> 
> ...


Group homes of the size you mention are on the way out, at least in my state.  Group homes usually house the disabled, which includes certain mentally ill people, and are very limited in client size.  The clients work at sheltered workshops or in the community.  Therefore, my totally disabled son goes to work 5 days a week as he works at sheltered workshop.  He’s a greeter.

My other disabled son goes to sheltered workshop and also has a community job 3 times a week.  His community job requires a social worker different from his regular social worker so he has two social workers.  A job coach goes to work with him as well.  Plus, he has a driver that takes him back and forth to work as he cannot manage a bus; and everyone in the state welfare system must work.  The state pays for it all.

He also has medicaid, and Medicare, and receives social security disability as does my other son.

In our state what you refer to as a group home of such size is called a halfway house.  We have plenty of halfway houses.

So the state had to take care of the disabled adults, the halfway houses are filled with recovering drug addicts, and released prisoners.  Now where do you think the money would come from to house all the mentally ill?  But it doesn’t matter.

As to putting them, any homeless person, in homes, , yup, give that a try.  We do not have homeless in our state.  Anyone without a home will be provided with a place to live. Except, there are people who live on our streets.  They are not homeless, they could have a home.  They refuse state housing, so they live on the street.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.


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## rgp (Jun 15, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Please be more specific-my solution to what?
> 
> The USA is moving away from the death penalty.  It has pretty much moved away from state hospitals for the mentally ill except in the most extreme cases.  And, I agree, some people are so ill they need hospitalization, perhaps for life.
> 
> ...




 My question was regarding mass shooters, and you answered it very well. Do I agree with all your points ? Since I have no solution of my own thinking, I'll just say I do agree with most of them.

Bottom line [as you pointed out] , humans can't be fixed. But I still maintain hospitalization is the most effective answer thus far . And I believe we [as a society] need to recognize early on those that need to be detained , and in fact detain them.

Like it or not though, it does need some sort of "tough-love" decision ......... and IMO that's where no one wants to go it seems. As such we just keep kicking the can down the road.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 15, 2021)

rgp said:


> My question was regarding mass shooters, and you answered it very well. Do I agree with all your points ? Since I have no solution of my own thinking, I'll just say I do agree with most of them.
> 
> Bottom line [as you pointed out] , humans can't be fixed. But I still maintain hospitalization is the most effective answer thus far . And I believe we [as a society] need to recognize early on those that need to be detained , and in fact detain them.
> 
> Like it or not though, it does need some sort of "tough-love" decision ......... and IMO that's where no one wants to go it seems. As such we just keep kicking the can down the road.


Thank you I think we are finally mostly in agreement.

Parents engage in tough love of their mentally ill children as much as possible, but are frequently blocked, most of all, by uncooperative school personnel.  School personnel see parents as the “enemy” and the source of the child’s issues which is often untrue.

The schools not only fail to protect innocent children from mentally ill agressive children, but they fail to give the ill child proper support and treatment.  This is where @Lara has failed to address the issues, IMO, in this thread.  By the time the mentally ill have entered junior high, they are so ingrained in their deviant behaviors that treatment is incredibly hard if not impossible.

When I took a five year old girl to school and INFORMED the school of all her behaviors, I was disbelieved.  I went frequently to check on her and one day found her “humping” another five year old in a distance section of the playground.

I went ballistic.  I had told them she was a ****** predator.  I told them she was in treatment twice a week.  I was disbelieved.  She had multiple personalities easily fooled people.  She was not watched as I had requested and there is no telling how many victims, and predictors, she created.  I was, , barred from the school.

Which made me thrilled, as the liability for her behavior shifted from me to them.  The problems I had with school personnel was unreal.  Yet in contrast, the mentally retarded are given rules, from the time they start school about proper inaction with others.

 No ****** behavior is tolerated, no inappropriate touching of any kind is tolerated, and no fighting, back talking and on and on and on.  This is why, in my opinion, mentally retarded people seldom, if ever, become mass shooters.  They are strictly raised, in their communities, and taught aggression is not acceptable.  When they are aggressive, intervention is swift.

If things are to change, it must be at the primary school level, or at whatever level the mental illness first appears.  Attempting to blame parents or anyone is useless and counter productive.  Treating and appropriate placement must start immediately.  Early intervention is the key.

But as you said @rgp we will just continue to kick the can, and the child, down the road.


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## Lara (Jun 15, 2021)

No comment.


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## ohioboy (Jun 15, 2021)

Lara said:


> No comment.


In other words, you are comment-less.


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