# What has happened to our Law Enforcement anyway ??



## Happyflowerlady (Mar 10, 2014)

I was reading this article about law enforcement breaking into a local animal shelter that had taken in an orphan fawn. They came in, not to save the fawn, but to kill it !  I read this, and wondered what became of the kind policemen of yesteryear ?? (link at bottom of post)

I grew up in a small town, and most of our police officers were well-known locally. My perception was the familiar "Norman Rockwell" patrolman, helping a little old lady cross the street.
Now, even though most crime is lower than it has been for many years, we are seeing more and more of militarization in our law enforcement agencies.  Even small towns and rural communities often have SWAT teams, and they are being used, not just for dangerous situations, but for everyday warrant services, and other small crimes.

It used to be that the police would knock and identify themselves when serving a warrant; but now they do what is called a no-knock entrance, where they simply bust down your door, usually in the wee hours of the night. If they shoot you by accident, they are not going to even lose their job for it, but if you try to protect your family (not knowing who is even breaking into your  home at that hour), you will likely be shot, and if you DO shoot one of the SWAT team, you can be sure that you will be prosecuted for murder.
As a part of the Homeland Security, the huge armored tanks, like we use in a war, are now being given to communities, many of whom have no real use for these MRAPs, but take them because they are free.

Slowly, our perception of what law enforcement does has changed from the old motto of "To Protect and Serve" that we used to think of , to the current picture of the highly armed LE swarming through the streets of a city, and searching all houses along the way, with no warrant. We watched it on national television in California, and then again with the search for the Boston bombing suspect.

http://www.examiner.com/article/bab...-lawsuit-bizarre-government-take-down-of-fawn


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## lonelynorthwind (Mar 10, 2014)

The more I know the happier I am to live at the end of the road in the middle of nowhere.  I see videos of police behavior on the internet that give me nightmares for my family living down there in the "real" world.  So sad.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 10, 2014)

This is why I cringe every time I hear these TV shows and talking heads call all police "heroes". Yeah, those 13 were real tough heroes. 

I'm afraid this is our new reality, and our only hope is to stay as far under their radar as possible. Granted, that's becoming more difficult each day with the advances in technology, but technology can also be used for the _good_ of the citizens ...


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 10, 2014)

I remember the street cops who patrolled on foot in my neighborhood.  We were friendly with them, they weren't out to set anyone up, or demonstrate their power.  They were there to make sure nobody was being harmed, and were anxious to help anyone in need.  Now, they're trained to suspect that everyone's guilty.  Now, even if you're not armed, they'll spray you, tase you, and you're lucky they don't shoot you.

I'm with Lonely, best place to be, especially when the $hit hits the fan, is out in the boonies, far away from the big cities and "civilization".  They seem to have been testing the waters, the Boston 'bombing' was a good example.  They'll see what they can get away with, without any public outroar, and then keep adding to it until we are all at their mercy.

What is happening really stinks, and more people should be aware of what's going on, instead of just trusting all they see and hear on the local news.


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## RCynic (Mar 10, 2014)

Yeah, police forces are becoming more militarized in both equipment and tactics. Some of you might remember, I don't have the source handy, about a no knock raid on a guy suspected of drug dealing. The guy said they first banged on one of his windows, which woke him, then smashed in the door of his trailer. His wife and infant daughter were with him and by the time they broke the door in, he had armed himself and got a lucky (or unlucky?) shot off and killed the first officer through the door. A grand jury just recently failed to hand over an indictment for murder, faulting the police for their methods and saying the kid had a right to defend himself from unknown assailants. People are going to continue to be killed on both sides of this issue until our law enforcement quits acting like a bunch of commandos in a war zone.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 10, 2014)

_The Police would do things differently if the gun laws were different, every man and his dog is allowed a gun, can you blame the Police for acting like they do,they are putting their lives on the line every time they are out in the cars, my late husband was a Cop and he said the worst job was having to go and speak to someone at their home because they have no idea what those people have behind the closed door, and in Australia the gun laws are a lot stricter than yours in America, i don't blame the guys for acting like that with the arsenal most people have in their homes, they are not trying to bully or intimidate they are basically trying to get the person they are after and staying alive to boot, i would like to say please don't rubbish them until you have walked a mile in their boots_


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

You think it's bad in the US try living in the UK/Ireland. The pendulum swings the other way with lax policing and weak laws. 

Criminals are routinely given suspended sentences and jail terms when they are given are ridiculously short. There's little incentive to not commit a crime.

In general, homeowners are not allowed guns much less even pepper spray. 

And this from Wiki:
In Northern Ireland, all police officers carry firearms. In the rest of the United Kingdom, police officers do not carry firearms, except in special circumstances. This originates from the formation of the Metropolitan Police Service in the 19th century, when police were not armed, partly to counter public fears and objections over armed enforcers as this had been previously seen due to the British Army maintaining order when needed. The arming of police in Great Britain is a perennial topic of debate.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 11, 2014)

_It's the same in Australia the police arrest these criminals and the judges give them a rap on the knuckles, the Police are frustrated as they work hard to catch these criminals, so these criminals think  what the heck especially the younger generation they don't care what they do because the penalties are a joke and they know they get off lightly usually a suspended sentence.
           The Police here carry guns they sign them out and sign them in again at the end of their shift and have to account for every bullet, it must be very hard in England for the cops having to deal with Criminals unarmed._


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## Bee (Mar 11, 2014)

_*But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to remain unarmed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398

*_


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

Bee said:


> _*But one thing is clear. When asked, police officers say overwhelmingly that they wish to remain unarmed.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398
> 
> *_



Can't tell you how many times they look the other way here in N Ireland. And look at this last year. Really afraid of the police, aren't they?



:


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## That Guy (Mar 11, 2014)

World gone mad.


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## Bee (Mar 11, 2014)

Gael said:


> Can't tell you how many times they look the other way here in N Ireland. And look at this last year. Really afraid of the police, aren't they?



There is no comparison with the police force of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, the article I posted was to do with police in Great Britain and nothing to do with Northern Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom

From what I have read of other countries police and laws I much prefer the way we do things even if they appear weak to you.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 11, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _The Police would do things differently if the gun laws were different, every man and his dog is allowed a gun, can you blame the Police for acting like they do,they are putting their lives on the line every time they are out in the cars, my late husband was a Cop and he said the worst job was having to go and speak to someone at their home because they have no idea what those people have behind the closed door, and in Australia the gun laws are a lot stricter than yours in America, i don't blame the guys for acting like that with the arsenal most people have in their homes, they are not trying to bully or intimidate they are basically trying to get the person they are after and staying alive to boot, i would like to say please don't rubbish them until you have walked a mile in their boots_



I'm sure your late husband was a good person and a good policeman Jilly.  But with all due respect to you and yours, there are way too many examples of the police in the US using excessive force, and there's a lot of corruption in the department.  Many cops here have been shown to also be abusive to their wives and children.  They know when they took that job that it is dangerous, but some go into that career with the wrong intentions, not to serve and protect, but to overpower and control.


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## Gael (Mar 11, 2014)

Bee said:


> There is no comparison with the police force of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, the article I posted was to do with police in Great Britain and nothing to do with Northern Ireland.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom
> 
> ...



They do. And how did you like how the London riots were handled?


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 11, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _The Police would do things differently if the gun laws were different, every man and his dog is allowed a gun, can you blame the Police for acting like they do,they are putting their lives on the line every time they are out in the cars, my late husband was a Cop and he said the worst job was having to go and speak to someone at their home because they have no idea what those people have behind the closed door, and in Australia the gun laws are a lot stricter than yours in America, i don't blame the guys for acting like that with the arsenal most people have in their homes, they are not trying to bully or intimidate they are basically trying to get the person they are after and staying alive to boot, i would like to say please don't rubbish them until you have walked a mile in their boots_



Jill, some excellent points that you bring up.   I am certainly not bashing police officers in any way, and would be the first to agree that probably the majority of our local police forces, especially in the smaller towns, are there dedicated and committed to helping protect the public that hired them.
My son was a deputy until a serious accident prevented him from being an officer, and he still does volunteer work for both the Sheriff Office, and the Search and Rescue Team locally. I have also volunteered as a Reserve Deputy when I was younger, and worked in dispatch, as well as extra help for the local county fair, and things like that. So, I also have a lot of respect for our LE officers in general.

The issue I am addressing here is that our police forces are becomeing militarized, and being used like miliary forces would be used. If this were only true is situations where there was a danger to officers, or other people nearby, then I perfectly well understand the need for a SWAT team. 
However, these extreme forces are being used in situations where there is NO expectation of violence of any kind, like the example I posted of raiding an animal rescue facility, and then shooting the fawn. No one was armed, no one was resisting, the fawn was certainly not dangerous; so there was no reason at all to send in a heavily armed team to bust in the door and kill the little helpless rescued fawn. 
They have also been used to serve warrants where it is only a misdemeanor charge, not even a felony of any kind. 

Instead of us trusting our police force, we are now being taught to be afraid of them, and that if there is ANY kind of (even perceived) resistance, we will probably just be killed, and at the very least thrown around and tazered like a violent criminal.
As far as your idea of "most Americans having an arsenal", this is just NOT true either. Most of us don't have weapons, and those that do are generally the ones that use them for hunting, or just have a gun in case of a home invasion or robbery.
The ones you see on the news with the arsenal are the exception, not the rule.

And regardless of that, taking the guns away from law-abiding citizens is not going to stop criminals from using guns. Criminals are the ones with all the dangerous weapons, and they are the ones using them against the police force. I have no issues at all with police using whatever force needed when dealing with armed criminals; just with them treating minor crimes , where no violence is likely, with the same tactics used in dangerous situations.

This link explains about our Homeland Security Force turning the local county/state LE into a kind of para-military force.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...re-staging-a-domestic-military-force_03102014


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## SifuPhil (Mar 11, 2014)

While I am against police brutality of any sort, I have to admit that after looking at Just Sayin's pictures of the London riot, if I were a cop there I would have thoroughly enjoyed giving double-taps to some of those animals.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 11, 2014)

HFL Wrote
               The issue I am addressing here is that our police forces are becoming militarized, and being used like miliary forces would be used. If this were only true is situations where there was a danger to officers, or other people nearby, then I perfectly well understand the need for a SWAT team. 
However, these extreme forces are being used in situations where there is NO expectation of violence of any kind, like the example I posted of raiding an animal rescue facility, and then shooting the fawn. No one was armed, no one was resisting, the fawn was certainly not dangerous; so there was no reason at all to send in a heavily armed team to bust in the door and kill the little helpless rescued fawn. 
They have also been used to serve warrants where it is only a misdemeanor charge, not even a felony of any kind. 

       I do agree with you on the Police over there, there is no need for the Swat team on misdemeanor calls, imo that is taking it too far, we only use ours when it is a serious problem, imo give a person power and chances are they will take it too far, i can only go on what i see and hear from overseas, i have seen TV shows with real cops from America and i admit they do go overboard in the way they handle the public.
                      It's quite different here in Australia with the Police and how they interact with the public.  :bowknot:


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## SifuPhil (Mar 11, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> ...It's quite different here in Australia with the Police and how they interact with the public.  :bowknot:



*Cop:* G'day, mate!
Crook: G'day, officer!
*Cop:* Whot are you up to, then, mate?
Crook: Just pinchin' these 'ere jewels ...
*Cop:* Right, into the wagon you go, mate!
Crook: It's a fair cop.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 11, 2014)

_*HaHa  not quite like that Phil they are quite courteous*_


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## Gael (Mar 12, 2014)

Just sayin said:


> It’s not that the police appear weak Bee, they _are_ weak because of political interference. Most everyday crimes are now not even investigated. You inform the police by phone, get a crime number, which you need to claim for insurance purposes and they have to let you know within five days whether they’ve investigated it and/or the results. The frightening thing, when you’re looking at the article pictures, is that this is part of the up and coming generation.
> 
> Full scale riots in the inner cities now occur at regular intervals and have become known as ‘summer riots’. Not just London, but the same thing also happened in Birmingham, Liverpool, Bristol and Manchester.
> 
> ...



You're absolutely correct. And though N Ireland is a different kettle of fish, they are part of the UK still and reflect the weak policing in effect there as well.

Coming from the US where the pendulum swings in the other direction, it was a shock to me though as we see from other posts it can go wrong in that direction as well. How about some middle ground?


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## SifuPhil (Mar 12, 2014)

Just sayin said:


> The UK version: ...



Yep, pretty much that way here as well. 

Except of course, with guns.


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## Gael (Mar 12, 2014)

Just sayin said:


> Absolutely. The middle ground to me was 50 years ago. A clip round the ear from the local policeman and taken home to get another one from your dad! Lesson learned and no ASBO's or social work interference needed. Days when ADHD, (Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) had yet to be invented and anti-social behaviour was simply that, bad behaviour. Ah, the good old days.



My husband says that all the time. How as boys they had a healthy respect and fear of the authorities. When I ask him why did it change, he always says it's the fault of the "do gooders."


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## Pam (Mar 12, 2014)

Ah, the good old days. Repeated in every generation.


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## Pappy (Mar 12, 2014)

Two cops on every corner. 42nd Street, NYC, back in the 70s. Just walking down the street, we got several offers to buy dope, prostitutes, and God knows what else. I asked my buddies why two cops on every corner? No one knew why. Nobody was being arrested. If I had bought something illegal, I probably would have been arrested.


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## Bee (Mar 12, 2014)

*Days when ADHD, (Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) had yet to be invented and anti-social behaviour was simply that, bad behaviour.


*When was ADHD first recognized and labeled? _*ADHD was first recognized and labeled in 1902*_. To many it is a recently-discovered condition, but mentions of it go back as far as 1798.  Find out more with our ADHD FAQ.slide 1 of 4Identifying ADHDWhen was ADHD first recognized and labeled? ADHD was first recognized as a condition and labeled in 1902 by British physician George Still, who called it a “morbid defect of moral control.” After his series of lectures for the Royal College of Physicians in England, the medical community began studying the condition. He suggested that the problem could be genetic, instead of poor upbringing as had been previously thought. What other attempts were made to understand the condition before this time? In 1845 German physician Heinrich Hoffman wrote a book where he described ADHD in great detail. The name of the piece was “The Story of Fidgety Phillip,” and the person described in its pages would be a classic case of ADHD today. He did not label the condition, but he is credited with being the first medical official to describe it. In 1798 Sir Alexander Crichton described “mental restlessness” in a book called “An Inquiry into the Nature and Origin of Mental Derangement.” 


http://www.healthguideinfo.com/causes-of-add-adhd/p99702/


Mmmm you are much older than I realised Just sayin.


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## Pam (Mar 12, 2014)

Just sayin said:


> _*But never as often as in this one?*_ This isn't simply change through progression, IMO. Not one I like or care to live in and so I don't.



I think that would be extremely hard to prove or disprove so not valid in my humble opinion. You mentioned 50 years ago as being middle ground for you, which surprised me. Mods and rockers, swinging sixties etc.  I certainly don't equate it with the era where policemen allegedly clipped  kids round the ear .... come to think of it I have never seen a policeman clip any kid around the ear... but from the UK forums I've visited, people of my age (67) and older always claim this Dixon of Dock Green type policeman to be from an earlier era, usually up to the 1950s. Certainly not with the 1960s.


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## Gael (Mar 12, 2014)

Just sayin said:


> He’s right, but by ‘do gooders’ he means progressive political correctness. Little boys like to fight, climb trees, play conkers, all the things which have now been banned for H&S reasons, or on the grounds of equality. If you continue, you’re then diagnosed as having ‘issues’.
> 
> 
> I personally saw that in the former USSR in the 80’s, when taken to extremes, non-conformism was regularly diagnosed as a physciatric illness or needing ‘re-education’ in a camp. Of course, its not got to that stage in the west, but already you can sense the State marginalizing those with alternative lifestyles, political views and the whistleblowers. “_Yes we can_”, “_Things can only get better_”, “_We’re all in this together_” . . . . . the slogans are already in place.
> ...



You're so well traveled and have experienced numerous societies first hand, you have a good handle on it all.


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## Gael (Mar 12, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> While I am against police brutality of any sort, I have to admit that after looking at Just Sayin's pictures of the London riot, if I were a cop there I would have thoroughly enjoyed giving double-taps to some of those animals.



Did you note that video I put up of the protest riots in Belfast? The kid was dancin on the top of the police vehicle. Give me a break!


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## Pam (Mar 12, 2014)

I was born in an industrial town in the northwest of England so I don't need educating on the north and the working classes.


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## Bee (Mar 12, 2014)

_*Here’s one you will have heard of; CRTE, (Clip round the ear), been around for thousands of years that one it and it worked as well. A shame it was replaced with excuses, don’t you think?

*_But has it been replaced??? my parents never clipped my 3 brothers and myself round the ear and I have never clipped my 3 children round the ear...........................violence breeds violence doncha know.


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## Pam (Mar 12, 2014)

I do enjoy living where I do, thank you very much. Contrary to popular belief, not all areas of England are drug ridden and violent. Austere, can't argue with that at the moment, but then I've never been materialistic so I manage okay. My pleasures can't be bought with money.....


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## That Guy (Mar 12, 2014)

"The cops don't need you and they expect the same."  -- Mister Zimmerman


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## SifuPhil (Mar 12, 2014)

Bee said:


> ...........................violence breeds violence doncha know.



Violence also has the capacity to END violence ... it's just a tool. It all depends upon why and how you use it.


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## Bee (Mar 12, 2014)

Pam said:


> I do enjoy living where I do, thank you very much. Contrary to popular belief, not all areas of England are drug ridden and violent. Austere, can't argue with that at the moment, but then I've never been materialistic so I manage okay. My pleasures can't be bought with money.....



Very well said Pam, I live at the opposite end of the country to where you are and I have no problems here that are being exaggerated on this forum.

Just sayin, all I can say to you is, if you feel that strongly about the U.K. just don't come back again and stop bitching about it.

After living in other countries I couldn't wait to get back and enjoy the life I have here and most importantly where I feel safe.


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## That Guy (Mar 12, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Violence also has the capacity to END violence ... it's just a tool. It all depends upon why and how you use it.



Fighting fire with fire.  I really do admire people who can love ultimately.  I just learned the hard way that I am not a pacifist.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 12, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Fighting fire with fire.  I really do admire people who can love ultimately.  I just learned the hard way that I am not a pacifist.



All too often pacifism is not a conscious choice but an unconscious fear. They don't _dislike_ confrontation - they're _afraid_ of it. 

Hence, the term "sheeple".


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## Bee (Mar 12, 2014)

If you have no intention of comeing back, then I suggest you concentrate on the country you are living in now and leave the U.K. to us that enjoy living here and  feel safe despite what is said.

Regarding locking doors and windows, I have never been paranoid about doing that, a determined burglar will break in no matter what.


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## Gael (Mar 13, 2014)

Bee said:


> If you have no intention of comeing back, then I suggest you concentrate on the country you are living in now and leave the U.K. to us that enjoy living here and  feel safe despite what is said.
> 
> Regarding locking doors and windows, I have never been paranoid about doing that, a determined burglar will break in no matter what.



I don't think keeping your home secured is paranoid and it is a deterrant as most burglers do not want a prolonged effort to break in which draws attention to them.

The police routinely give out information to homeowners as to how to make their property safer to citizens.


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## Davey Jones (Mar 13, 2014)

There was a cop,only on the force 1 year, that whenever he stopped anyone and if it was a nice looking female he always ask for their phone number.
Chief got the complaint,he's fired.


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## That Guy (Mar 13, 2014)

Police in King City, CA; San Jose, CA; San Francisco, CA; Oakland, CA and many others to be sure are the latest to be busted for their bad behavior.  No end in sight...


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## Jambi (Mar 17, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _The Police would do things differently if the gun laws were different, every man and his dog is allowed a gun, _



That was very careless of the article to leave out that the fawn was armed.

Rosie was unarmed this day............. JUSTICE FOR ROSIE


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## RCynic (Mar 18, 2014)

IMHO, it isn't just police. It's the erosion of freedom by those in power. It's an insidious process by which power has become concentrated in government bureaucracies, agencies, all manner of bodies. They serve themselves too often instead of the people to whom they owe their existence. Look at Lerner, look at this story I've linked. This type of behavior has gotten out of control. 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...s-fine-for-building-pond-on-his-own-property/

People have forgotten the meaning of liberty and just try to get along. This country was founded on the concept of individual liberty and it's very simple. You have the right to think, read, be, act, say or do anything you want until such time as you infringe on those same rights of another. This usually boils down to an act of force or fraud. Everything else, the government needs to butt out.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 18, 2014)

I agree completely RCynic.


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## Gael (Mar 18, 2014)

Pam said:


> I do enjoy living where I do, thank you very much. Contrary to popular belief, not all areas of England are drug ridden and violent. Austere, can't argue with that at the moment, but then I've never been materialistic so I manage okay. My pleasures can't be bought with money.....



Who believes _*all*_ areas of England are drug ridden and violent? :noway:


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## That Guy (Mar 18, 2014)

Gael said:


> Who believes _*all*_ areas of England are drug ridden and violent? :noway:



Johnny Rotten?


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## Gael (Mar 18, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Johnny Rotten?


:dots:


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## SifuPhil (Mar 18, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Johnny Rotten?



Well, he's gone but evidently not forgotten ...


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## That Guy (Mar 18, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Well, he's gone but evidently not forgotten ...



John Lydon is still alive and well and still creating.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 18, 2014)

That Guy said:


> John Lydon is still alive and well and still creating.



Then Neil Young lied to me.


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## That Guy (Mar 18, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Then Neil Young lied to me.



Well, maybe Johnny Rotten is gone but not John Lydon.  How's that?


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## SifuPhil (Mar 18, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Well, maybe Johnny Rotten is gone but not John Lydon.  How's that?



Much better - you've put me back upon the Psycho's Path.


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