# A Mailed Dinner Invitation To Listen To An Annuity Sales Pitch



## fmdog44 (Feb 18, 2020)

The person giving the pitch is described as "a dedicated and focused insurance professional." I went to one of these for a time share scandal many decades ago.  I got up and ran out when I started seeing a handful of sales scum cheering on when a couple agreed to sign up. Sad that it still goes on.


----------



## Butterfly (Feb 18, 2020)

I still get these and promptly shred them, along with those lovely notifications that I should rush out and buy a cemetery plot.


----------



## Llynn (Feb 18, 2020)

When I was young and stupid, (instead of old and stupid as I am now) those presentations were much more common. Fortunately, even back then I wasn't quite "that" stupid and made for the door in a timely and, may I say, dramatic fashion leaving a stream of "sailor talk" in my wake.


----------



## Ruth n Jersey (Feb 18, 2020)

I went to one selling time shares many years ago. Was I sorry. They offered a free watch just for listening. The presentation went on for what seemed like hours and the pressure was unbearable. Finally I got my watch which they practically threw at me.


----------



## peppermint (Feb 18, 2020)

We went to one Time share (Gimmick) in Florida....And Never again....They stuck is in a room for a half an hour....We were ready to get out of there when a Woman came in the room....She did her thing and we told her we didn't think this was for us....So she said, come on now, let's see
some rooms...So we did!!!!   We actually were there for 3 hours and we didn't buy a thing...They did give us a Restaurant pass...We never used it...
I gave it to the Bell Hop in our Hotel Room....


----------



## Gardenlover (Feb 18, 2020)

Timeshares are modern day curses in my opinion. I'd put this in the same category (almost).
There is no such thing as a free lunch.


----------



## peppermint (Feb 18, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Timeshares are modern day curses in my opinion. I'd put this in the same category (almost).
> There is no such thing as a free lunch.


We gave our free lunch away...


----------



## Don M. (Feb 18, 2020)

Annuities, for the most part, are a great deal for the banks and insurance companies.  They make way more off a customers money than they will ever pay out.  About the Only upside might be that the returns are better than any money "rotting" in a checking/savings bank account.  

We, also, attended a couple of these annuity and time-share "seminars" a few years ago....It didn't take us long to figure out that they, especially the time shares, were almost a scam.  

A couple of years ago, we sat in on a "home security" seminar....it was almost laughable.  They wanted to set up the house for a "smart phone" security and fire safety system....at a cost approaching $8,000...and that didn't include the smart phone.  We ate their free meal, and I didn't see anyone gullible enough to be offering to buy into this scheme.


----------



## Duster (Feb 18, 2020)

Some friends fell for the free dinner pitch at a condo time share complex in Cancun.  They were locked in a conference room and couldn't leave.  Talk about mad!  That little trick backfired on the presenters big time.  No time shares were bought by that angry crowd!


----------



## win231 (Feb 18, 2020)

22 years ago, I worked with a married couple.  They were in charge of payroll & accounting.  They had a 7-year-old daughter who loved me - more than she liked her parents. They invited me to her 8th birthday party.  I got a little suspicious when I saw several really expensive cars parked at their house.
Well, they weren't just inviting me to the party.  After the party,  I was given a pushy, aggressive sales pitch for cell phone plans the guys were selling (the guys who drove those pricey cars).
I politely said "No, thanks" & my co-workers were really disappointed - _as if I ripped them off _by eating free cake & not doing business with them.   I could see why their daughter couldn't stand them.


----------



## win231 (Feb 18, 2020)

Many companies have similar tactics.  I guess they must work, otherwise they couldn't afford them.


----------



## Duster (Feb 18, 2020)

We were once invited to some friend's house for a "Travel Party".  It was for snacks and refreshments, not dinner.  The details of what we were going over there for were vague. These people didn't have parties, ever.  I jokingly said to my husband on the trip over to their house, "This is probably some kind of pyramid scheme or over priced travel club".  It turned out to be the latter.  The womans' brother was trying to recruit new members into a travel club.  
Two problems with inviting us~1. My husband didn't have a job at the time, no money for travel. 2. I knew that the online prices to go to these places was far less than the prices their "Club" was offering.  We had already gone to some of the places they were pushing and knew exactly how much expense was involved.
The membership wasn't cheap, either.  
We watched the movie presentation, finished our Fritos and dip, drank our lemonade, and high tailed it out of there!


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 19, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I still get these and promptly shred them, along with those lovely notifications that I should rush out and buy a cemetery plot.


Butterfly....if you intend to be buried, buying that plot now may not be a bad idea.  LOL The costs are skyrocketing.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 19, 2020)

Sometimes it's at a nice hotel and they make ya feel real special. My husband got sucked into signing up for some sale program, not an annuity.  Well, he didn't follow through and it was money wasted.  In some cases even when an individual does follow through, it's money wasted. 

My attendance at a timeshare presentation was just the opposite. They snagged us on the boardwalk and offered $75 cash. As soon as I saw the view, I knew I had to have this oceanfront timeshare. By the time I got finished with the three salesmen (I wore the first two out...the last was their manager) we paid 37% of the asking price, did a no interest deal and had a couple of perks thrown in.  I had gone to other timeshare presentations that were a NO due to prohibitive costs and limited usage. This one...one of the best decisions I've made.  I now have a vacation home that I can go to anytime I want for a small fraction of what Jersey shore vacation homes cost...even considering the purchase price, maintenance fees and resort costs. In addition, I can literally stay at my home resort (if I book through the exchange Getaway program) for up to six weeks at the same cost for just a Saturday night in nearby hotels in Atlantic City.  Last year I went down for 8 (non consecutive) weeks. This year I plan to use 14 weeks.


----------



## Linda (Feb 19, 2020)

When I look at the photo of the thick steak on the invitation I often tell my husband "Lets go have the dinner, they can't make us buy anything."   So far he hasn't taken me up on my brilliant suggestion.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 19, 2020)

When I was young and broke I suffered through a Florida timeshare presentation to get a free ticket to Disney World.

The investment companies and the eldercare/estate planning law firms in this area still offer them every now and then.


----------



## Lee (Feb 19, 2020)

I might sing for my supper but there is no way I will sit through an hours long presentation to get a free meal


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

Linda said:


> When I look at the photo of the thick steak on the invitation I often tell my husband "Lets go have the dinner, they can't make us buy anything."  So far he hasn't taken me up on my brilliant suggestion.


We did that a couple weeks ago
Mainly we wanted to know just how good those steaks were
Did the math in my head on the annuities while listening and waiting for dinner
They didn't press when touring from table to table after the presentation

That steak was delicious


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

it usually is not the company that pays for these dinners . it is individual salesman who band together and are trying to earn a living ..

i would never waste their money if i knew i had no interest just to have them pay for my meal .

i think anyone who works for a living  should have someone  who mooches off  others do it to them ...  one may not like the product but i think it is in poor taste to make them spend money on you when you know damn well you are not interested .


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> one may not like the product but i think it is in poor taste to make them spend money on you


I didn't *'make them'*

Talk about poor taste......pfft

Did I mention the steak was delicious?


----------



## Packerjohn (Feb 19, 2020)

Well, bless my soul!  The truth has come out:  time shares are a scam!  He, he, only kidding!  These scams have been going on for decades.  I have seen them in Hawaii & I have seen them in Mexico.  I don't mean to brag or present myself as all knowing but I have never gone for even one of these scams.  I guess I read about them too often.  Being a traveler all my life I could never understand why anyone would ever want to go back to the same darn place year after year after year when there are over 200 countries in this world to explore & you'll never see them all.  Yes, I know there are some time shares that are located in different countries.  I think most people who go to time share presentations are really ignorant of the pressure they will face.  Getting that free meal, free day trip, free whatever is just not worth it.  Who needs to listen to all that crap & have your vacation spoiled?  Sorry but leave this packer out!  Buyer beware!


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> I didn't *'make them'*
> 
> Talk about poor taste......pfft
> 
> Did I mention the steak was delicious?


sure you did .. just by going ...  if you had no interest in the product , which generally is the case then it is the wrong thing to do to people trying to earn a living and funding these things from their own pockets which is how most of these events are  ...these people are trying to earn a living  not host a dinner party for people with no interest and who want a free meal .

sorry ,, but as a commissioned sales engineer for decades of my career i feel very strongly about people wasting my time and money  as i try to feed my family and i respect what others do for a living if they are in sales  .


----------



## Ken N Tx (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Did I mention the steak was delicious?


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> as a commissioned sales engineer for decades of my career i feel very strongly about people wasting my time


Heh, you guys started it

For what it's worth, I had moderate interest
The steak brought me in
The presentation educated me a bit
And helped me to make a decision

I had rather high regard for your input....riiiight up to this thread
Now, yer just wunna 'them'

I'll continue buying/selling land instead of tying up my money in the paltry interest annuities yield


----------



## Lakeland living (Feb 19, 2020)

On this I agree with Gary O


Gary O' said:


> Heh, you guys started it
> 
> For what it's worth, I had moderate interest
> The steak brought me in
> ...


On this I agree with Gary O, the steak was the come in and they did. Very plain, an agreement struck steak for a sales pitch. Your time and theirs was part of the bargain.


----------



## Lvstotrvl (Feb 19, 2020)

While we were vacationing in St. Martin we were approached by a salesperson about a timeshare there. We were so tempted but my husbands work scheduled didn’t allow it, the young man was really nice n gave us each a $50 voucher for the casino!


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Heh, you guys started it
> 
> For what it's worth, I had moderate interest
> The steak brought me in
> ...


you can think what you want about my thread , but the same way you would not want people to cost you money if they disliked you or had no interest in you  but came to your house or business  to mooch a meal,  is the way i feel about salesman who have to pay for me covering an event out of their own pocket that i know i damn well will not buy.

i equate to a woman who has no interest in a man at all  ,  yet  is going out with him on a date anyway  just so he can pay for dinner .

just because someone tries to get you as a client and invites you , the respectful thing to do is decline if you will not buy an annuity . and yes most people do know in advance they don't want one .  .


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> the same way you would not want people to cost you money if they disliked you but came to your house or business to mooch a meal


This is getting stooopid
It's quite simple
Those folks would *NOT!* be at my table


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> This is getting stooopid
> It's quite simple
> Those folks would *NOT!* be at my table


well would you want that woman going out on a date with you who had absolutely  no interest in you at all , just so you can buy her dinner because you asked ?

any reasonable human being would see that is the wrong thing to do .

just because we could do something does not mean we should or it is the right thing to do .


----------



## Butterfly (Feb 19, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Butterfly....if you intend to be buried, buying that plot now may not be a bad idea.  LOL The costs are skyrocketing.



Nope, I want to be cremated.  I know it's silly, because I'd be dead, but the idea of being buried in the ground in a box strikes some kind of primal fear in me.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> well would you want that woman going out on a date with you who had absolutely no interest in you at all , just so you can buy her dinner because you asked ?


Somehow I've managed to pick up on the vibes waaaay before considering asking someone out
Yer run-a-the-mill sales people are not as cognizant
They're too involved with themselves

Yer not gonna ask me if I'd jump out of a plane, are you?
That's a rather old one, but didn't fall for it back then, either


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Somehow I've managed to pick up on the vibes waaaay before considering asking someone out
> Yer run-a-the-mill sales people are not as cognizant
> They're too involved with themselves
> 
> ...


silly answer to my question ....

do you think it is proper for that woman to accept and waste your money just because you asked , when she knows she has no interest  ?


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> silly answer to my question ....
> 
> do you think it is proper for that woman to accept and waste your money ?



Guess yer not pickin' up on the fact that I *wouldn't* be asking that woman out

Hey, this has been fun, but since there appears a steak is not involved, let's just drop this little dialogue


----------



## treeguy64 (Feb 19, 2020)

I used to go to those sales pitch events quite often. I enjoyed riling those bastards, no lie. I got a free trip to Disneyworld, Disneyland, Vegas, a very good CB, a reasonably high quality set of luggage, and a few more things.

I only considered the event a success if the gifts were thrown at me. Two actually were! While doing so, one salesman said, "This is what we do for people with attitude problems!"

Only once did I get suckered: The come-on literature told me I'd get a gift check for $100 if I attended the spiel in Houston. I rented a nice car, for $18, drove to Houston, saw an old girlfriend. At the event, that gift check was a dedicated check you could only use on rip-off priced items in their company catalog. Oh well, I still had fun seeing the old gf. (She just came for a visit with Janet and I, last month. It had been about twenty years since I last saw her.)

One time, my first week in Austin, my old (Chicago) drummer's brother, who worked with my new bride, here, invited us to a free dinner and an "interesting presentation that might be of use to (us)" It was a high pressure Amway pitch! I was exhausted, from moving down to Austin, unpacking, looking for a day gig, etc. I contained my great anger, afterwards, until he walked us out to our car. When he asked what I thought, I exploded on this guy, shaking with anger as I did so. I never saw him, again.


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Guess yer not pickin' up on the fact that I *wouldn't* be asking that woman out
> 
> Hey, this has been fun, but since there appears a steak is not involved, let's just drop this little dialogue



you get what i am saying ..... it is wrong for anyone to waste someone else's money  , especially an individual trying to earn a living , when they have no interest in what they are offering .

like i said , they don't know you or your intentions ,  but they hope you have the respect for what they do that if you have no interest you will do the right thing and decline , not mooch a meal off them .

if it is some big company throwing the event , well do what you want . but the problem is when these salesman who  are trying to earn a living  pay for it out of their own pocket  it is wrong . but you don't know who is paying for it and that is the problem in accepting  blindly.

david lerner   in these parts are very popular for these events and the salesman pay for everyone who attends .

my friend works for a financial firm that does it too and he pays in to the pot for everyone who shows up  so i am very respectful of what sales people do for their  livelihood having been a commissioned sales engineer myself  for decades . i had many  clients just take from me knowing they were never ordering a thing and i think that is just disrespecting someones profession ..


----------



## CarolfromTX (Feb 19, 2020)

We get these invitations all the time, and Dave says, "we should go." We went once, and by the end of the presentation, I was ready to commit homicide. Or suicide. Maybe both. Worst speaker ever. He managed to say absolutely nothing meaningful while making all sorts of promises about a rosy financial future, kinda like a politician! It was a great steak dinner, which would have cost us $75, but I'd have had a better time if we'd stayed home and had Kraft mac and cheese! A wasted evening.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> you get what i am saying ..... it is wrong for anyone to waste someone else's money


Or time
Like the last 15 minutes

Well, dang it, the shit givery is now closed
And here I am, totally out of shits with which to give about yer misguided expenditures

You take care, now


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Or time
> Like the last 15 minutes
> 
> Well, dang it, the shit givery is now closed
> ...


thats okay , because there is nothing to argue ... you know i am right about it  being very disrespectful to the livelihood of others


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> you know i am right about it being very disrespectful to the livelihood of others


I figger you guys know it's better to give free dinners to live audiences, than spend as much or more on blind advertising.

I respect yer opinion
But you thinking I know yer right, is just another sales ploy...wasted on this steak monger

Now, if there was a 12 pack of a good IPA involved, I'd pretend to be interested as long as they lasted

Go get 'em, cupcake
They're out there
And they are *HUNGRY!!!*


----------



## win231 (Feb 19, 2020)

I just remembered something funny:
Remember Jay Leno's "Headlines" on his show?  People contributed funny newspaper articles & ads & he joked about them.
One was an ad for a Weight-Loss seminar held at some fancy hotel.  Of course the idea was to sell diets.
The ad said, "Everyone in attendance will get a free cheeseburger."


----------



## GoGlo (Feb 19, 2020)

When I was young my parents several times were invited to dinner or a party just to find out someone was selling something.
That only happened to me once since grown. I can tell you this....once you do that to me your on my permanent S!:_( list !
Most under handed crappy thing a friend or even acquaintance can do.


----------



## gennie (Feb 19, 2020)

Salesmen who only  want to spend time, money or energy on a sure thing are in the wrong line of work.  Sales are like planting a garden. Rely on or even expect every seed to germinate and you are looking at failure and disappointment.

In younger days, I sometimes played the game if I had the time and energy to listen to the pitch AND if the freebie was something  substantial and I could easily use like a free all hook-up weekend at a luxury RV resort when I had been planning to boondock in the desert.  I played fair.  I never took part unless what was offered was something I could afford and use but also knew I was not susceptible to making spur of the moment decisions. 

I would listen  to the pitch and wait for the first face to face.  My standard response was, "That was interesting.  Gave me all the details and I will talk it over with my children/financial adviser/partner" whatever seemed appropriate at the time.  

It wasn't wasted time for the salesmen.  It was a learning experience and my presence gave them a way to hone their sales skills.  You can learn all the right words but practicing on real people is essential to getting good at it.


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> it usually is not the company that pays for these dinners . it is individual salesman who band together and are trying to earn a living ..
> 
> i would never waste their money if i knew i had no interest just to have them pay for my meal .
> 
> i think anyone who works for a living  should have someone  who mooches off  others do it to them ...  one may not like the product but i think it is in poor taste to make them spend money on you when you know damn well you are not interested .


Really?! I think it is poor taste to solicit people who have never expressed any interest in what you are trying to SELL. If it was not to THEIR ADVANTAGE they would not do it.


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> sure you did .. just by going ...  if you had no interest in the product , which generally is the case then it is the wrong thing to do to people trying to earn a living and funding these things from their own pockets which is how most of these events are  ...these people are trying to earn a living  not host a dinner party for people with no interest and who want a free meal .
> 
> sorry ,, but as a commissioned sales engineer for decades of my career i feel very strongly about people wasting my time and money  as i try to feed my family and i respect what others do for a living if they are in sales  .


You should save your sermons for Sundays.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> it usually is not the company that pays for these dinners . it is individual salesman who band together and are trying to earn a living ..
> 
> i would never waste their money if i knew i had no interest just to have them pay for my meal .
> 
> i think anyone who works for a living  should have someone  who mooches off  others do it to them ...  one may not like the product but i think it is in poor taste to make them spend money on you when you know damn well you are not interested .



People who do that (I am told) are known by the sales people as "plate lickers".

We went to a sales pitch once - for an asset management firm.  It was fairly legit and the dinner was good.  Won't go again now that we have taken the DIY path.


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Well I have my ethics and I won’t take advantage of a fellow human being if I know I have no interest in what he is offering  ....that is how certain professions go to market ,  but just because you can take something for free from them does not mean you should if you are just doing it to stick your hand in their pocket ...you can do as you like , but I think it’s a sucky thing to do , you got to be hard  up for a meal to do it in my opinion


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> Well I have my ethics and I won’t take advantage of a fellow human being if I know I have no interest in what he is offering ....that is how certain professions go to market , *but just because you can take something for free from them does not mean you should if you are just doing it to stick your hand in their pocket *...you can do as you like , but I think it’s a sucky thing to do , you got to be hard up for a meal to do it in my opinion



This from this guy;



mathjak107 said:


> let all those who enjoy paying for our points keep doing it and getting nothing back in return, it sweetens the deals the rest of us get ..so .thanks again to those who are paying for our points


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> This form this guy;


Far from the same thing .....I love getting rebates on the money I spend ...that is what points are ....but those who don’t use cards with points or paying cash are paying the retailers the prices they are because retailers have to cover the cost of using credit cards and the perks the banks give those who use cards with points  ...so in effect those who don’t get points or pay cash are paying for those points for the rest of us and not participating themselves .

Hardly the same thing....not taking advantage of what you are paying for and getting your own rebate on  what you spend is just a  poor choice and not the same as mooching a meal .
A choice not to take the rebate you are entitled to sweetens the pot for those who do ..that is your choice that puts you in that position.

but nice try and thanks for playing


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> it usually is not the company that pays for these dinners . it is individual salesman who band together and are trying to earn a living ..
> 
> i would never waste their money if i knew i had no interest just to have them pay for my meal .
> 
> i think anyone who works for a living  should have someone  who mooches off  others do it to them ...  one may not like the product but i think it is in poor taste to make them spend money on you when you know damn well you are not interested .


Well I don't feel sorry for the ones who deliberately take advantage of people. Maybe that's not all, but some of them certainly do. I always figured the company paid for these events. Ya learn something new everyday.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 19, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Nope, I want to be cremated.  I know it's silly, because I'd be dead, but the idea of being buried in the ground in a box strikes some kind of primal fear in me.


I understand. If our religion didn't deem burial the appropriate choice, I might have considered cremation.  My main reason...I'm deathly (pardon the pun) afraid of worms.


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

I wanted to be stuffed with unpopped popcorn , then cremated ...that will be epic


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> Far from the same thing .....I love getting rebates on the money I spend ...that is what points are ....but those who don’t use cards with points or paying cash are paying the retailers the prices they are because retailers have to cover the cost of using credit cards and the perks the banks give those who use cards with points  ...so in effect those who don’t get points or pay cash are paying for those points for the rest of us and not participating themselves .
> 
> Hardly the same thing....not taking advantage of what you are paying for and getting your own rebate on  what you spend is just a  poor choice and not the same as mooching a meal .
> A choice not to take the rebate you are entitled to sweetens the pot for those who do ..that is your choice that puts you in that position.
> ...


"Mooching a meal", spoken like a true commissioned sales guy. "_When you never learned how to do anything go in to sales."_


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

A


fmdog44 said:


> "Mooching a meal", spoken like a true commissioned sales guy. "_When you never learned how to do anything go in to sales."_


You would be so wrong .... I was an hvac technician who got in to more motor controls and variable frequency drives  so I ended up migrating in to selling and designing custom pump control panels for the water pumping stations , sewage treatment plants and industrials .

I did so well as a sales engineer I wanted to be on commission instead of salary  and spent decades in a fine career .

today I am retired and one day a week teach controls and drives , for a lot of money I might add.
Not exactly a case  WHEN YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ELSE


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> Hardly the same thing....


au contraire
Taking what's offered/available
No more
No less


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> au contraire
> Taking what's offered/available
> No more
> No less


You can spin it anyway you like in your mind ..... credit card points are not even close to the same thing as mooching a meal off someone who you have no interest in   ... to think that is hilarious ......anyway you got the point ...whether you care is something else ...


----------



## C'est Moi (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> Well I have my ethics and I won’t take advantage of a fellow human being if I know I have no interest in what he is offering  ....that is how certain professions go to market ,  but just because you can take something for free from them does not mean you should if you are just doing it to stick your hand in their pocket ...you can do as you like , but I think it’s a sucky thing to do , you got to be hard  up for a meal to do it in my opinion


So you don't believe that they take the tax write off??


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 19, 2020)

You mean like spend 4 dollars to get one back .    Tell you what give me 4 bucks and I will give you back 2 dollars , I will sweeten that write off ....sound like something you want to do ? That is a far better deal then that write off would be


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> ...whether you care is something else ...


Well now.....we've come to an agreement

Now, you best get busy and grill me up a steak, and I'll pretend to listen


----------



## C'est Moi (Feb 19, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Well I don't feel sorry for the ones who deliberately take advantage of people. Maybe that's not all, but some of them certainly do. I always figured the company paid for these events. Ya learn something new everyday.


I'm pretty sure that the financial dinners I have attended were paid for by the companies, not individuals.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> just because someone tries to get you as a client and invites you , the respectful thing to do is decline if you will not buy an annuity . and yes most people do know in advance they don't want one . .


So, why not go back to straight up advertising?
I'm bettin' you guys do OK with the dinner offer, us 'moochers' and all

Actually, I was a bit piqued in regard to just what annuities yielded these days when I went to that dinner
The lady did a great job
It reconfirmed my thoughts
Buying/selling land is soooo much more lucrative 
And  my money isn't tied up

The dessert wasn't bad either


----------



## Getyoung (Feb 19, 2020)

Not related to annuities, but to time shares. I have a friend that was a real estate developer that was involved with setting up time shares in Hawaii many years ago. He told me to run if I ever was invited to a timeshare "dinner" presentation etc. 
He told me how the math worked. Basically, the setup would be to sell a week at the condo for about $20,000 plus annual costs of about $700. So he said that they were basically making about $1,000,000 for a 800 square foot condo for 52 weeks. The complex had 125 units on Maui. It cost the company about $100,000 to build the unit. The profits are obscene with time shares. I had invested in the company he worked for and that was MUCH more lucrative that a time share.

They did the same rubber stamp process in Florida, Texas, and in Victoria, British Columbia as well as Banff, Alberta.

It is a big business now, trying to get rid of time share properties, you actually can't give them away. The annual fees keep climbing.


----------



## fmdog44 (Feb 19, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> A
> 
> You would be so wrong .... I was an hvac technician who got in to more motor controls and variable frequency drives  so I ended up migrating in to selling and designing custom pump control panels for the water pumping stations , sewage treatment plants and industrials .
> 
> ...


So you were a salesman...……………………..not a sales "engineer"


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> So you were a salesman...……………………..not a sales "engineer"


the work i did was sales engineering .. that does no mean just selling .. it is designing  the circuitry as well .. .  by definition " A *sales engineer* is someone who sells complex scientific and technological products or services to businesses. They must have extensive knowledge of the products' parts and functions and must understand the scientific processes that make these products work."


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I'm pretty sure that the financial dinners I have attended were paid for by the companies, not individuals.


you are  sure of nothing ....   how would you know ?  that makes no sense .


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 20, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Well I don't feel sorry for the ones who deliberately take advantage of people. Maybe that's not all, but some of them certainly do. I always figured the company paid for these events. Ya learn something new everyday.


I agree I can't get worked up over a salesman's expenses or cost of doing business when his business is fleecing elderly people out of their life savings by selling them an annuity that is loaded with caps, fees, and commissions.

I'm not sure which bothers me more salesmen that sell financial products and don't understand what they are selling or the salesmen that do understand and sell them anyway.


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> You can spin it anyway you like in your mind ..... credit card points are not even close to the same thing as mooching a meal off someone who you have no interest in   ... to think that is hilarious ......anyway you got the point ...whether you care is something else ...




even if we used your convoluted comparison to credit card points , the reason the points are not comparable is you took the product ,which is  the credit card from that company and took what they were selling .. so you should get the perks that go with taking the product .

you my friend are just mooching a meal and not taking the  product


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree I can't get worked up over a salesman's expenses or cost of doing business when his business is fleecing elderly people out of their life savings by selling them an annuity that is loaded with caps, fees, and commissions.
> 
> I'm not sure which bothers me more salesmen that sell financial products and don't understand what they are selling or the salesmen that do understand and sell them anyway.
> 
> View attachment 92369



not all annuities are bad . those who think they are run on myth ,  and just parrot what they hear other un-informed people say .

you need to actually look under the hood to see what it entails  . there are lots of low cost annuity products out there that are fine . in fact i highly recommend an spia for someone who wants one . they are as low cost as can be , they are like buying a cd . if you like the cash flow that is your deal. today the cash flow for a 70 year old is about 7k a year from 100k  .

so the point is you cannot paint any product  with a broad brush .

so what is a typical annuity offered at a dinner like ?

well this is an actual annuity offered at the david learner dinners, so lets see if this typical annuity product " fleeces the elderly as you say "

looking at the prudential defined income variable annuity  .

at the time cd's were paying less than 1% .. that is important to keep in mind .


you will never see a spread sheet like this from your annuity provider . THIS IS THE REAL DEAL .

they would never let you see the bottom line growth rate you get on their guaranteed minimums and bonus bucks they give you .

here is an example of how these guaranteed minimums work and why what you think you are getting is not what you get .

this is actually not a bad products and as a proxy for cash it is actually pretty good.

it is called prudentials variable fixed income deferred  annuity . it gives you a guaranteed 5-1/2% increases a year minimum or whatever your bond index that is linked got as a high water mark , which ever is higher .

in reality there is no way a bond index today with more then 2-1/2 % in fees being charged  is going to beat 5-1/2% so your guarantee is going to be your deal .


you will never see spread sheets like this from the annuity issuer . this is your real deal once the curtain is pulled back .


so here is a deferred annuity for a single  , you start at age 55 putting money in and delay until age 65 when you annuitize your money .

the fees are 2.55% and you are linked to the ast bond index , similiar to AGG .

the guaranteed min of 5.50% includes the fees , the bond index does not , so right off the bat you know the link to the index is there because it sounds good but it will not beat the min  with those fees .

so below you see the yearly compounding of the promised 5.50% . that is taking part in a sub account which you can never take out or pass to heirs . the balance is only used to compute your draw when you annuitize . your actual account value is the one linked to the bond index with all the fees .

that is what you get if you want your money or pass to heirs .

so you see if you give them 100k and take the annuity after year 1 ,you get 4% of 105k or 4200.00 bucks.

for every year you delay your balance grows by 5.50% and your draw if you annuitize goes up 1/10% so finally 10 years later you get 5% of 180k or 9k .

that is a nice jump in income so it isn't a bad product but if you thought that 180k was yours to take you were wrong . your actual balance is what is linked to the bond index net of all those fees .

you can see it takes until age 75 before you get all your money back and see dollar 1 on their dime .

NOTE , YOUR ACTUAL GROWTH RATE BY AGE 90 IS NOT THE 5.50% YOU THOUGHT , BUT ONLY 4.55%

not bad  at all when you consider at the time rates on cd's were a fraction of a point .

so for someone who wants to make there dollars go a whole lot further  on the bond side of their investing this is really not a bad product . it  sure does not fleece anyone at all  and it provides a cash flow higher than you can get safely on your own











this is for a joint plan


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> not all annuities are bad . those who think they are run on myth ,  and just parrot what they hear other un-informed people say .
> 
> you need to actually look under the hood to see what it entails  . there are lots of low cost annuity products out there that are fine . in fact i highly recommend an spia for someone who wants one . they are as low cost as can be , they are like buying a cd . if you like the cash flow that is your deal
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information but if I need an annuity I'm pretty sure that I won't buy it at one of these dinner events.

That's just my opinion and my way of doing things.

Have a nice day!


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> Thanks for the information but if I need an annuity I'm pretty sure that I won't buy it at one of these dinner events.
> 
> That's just my opinion and my way of doing things.
> 
> Have a nice day!



you need to do your own homework , but never use the company literature .  because they will never give you a spread sheet like the above . the fact is once you get away from an spia ( single premium immediate annuity ) the products are complex ... most will not understand fully how they work . just like the above . they think they are getting 5.50% and while they are , the company restricts you to getting 1/10% a year of that  so it is actually less , but still not to shabby.

you will never see spia's at a dinner .. those are bought not sold ..  they are extremely low cost  and require no sales pitch .

however there are many products like the prudential one above which are  pretty decent .. they may  work out to less then you thought you were getting but certainly no one is fleeced and it still is a better deal in fixed income then you can get from bonds and cd's .

annuities pay way more because they invest in something you can't . dead bodies ... those who die  pay for those who live so  there are mortality credits involved that bolster the cash flow


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> annuities pay way more because they invest in something you can't . dead bodies ... those who die pay for those who live so there are mortality credits involved that bolster the cash flow


Well, *THAT *certainly makes me feel better


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> you will never see a spread sheet like this from your annuity provider . THIS IS THE REAL DEAL .


Yup, that's almost the exact spread sheet I saw at the dinner
It was hard not to become incredulous at how little the return, and how long your money is tied up

Heh, causing one to feel guilty for eating an offered dinner and not buying product is the lowest ploy of the low.

Hell, I'm so disgusted, I don't want to even be in the same room with someone that uses this to sell their grave robbing wares.
I'll buy my own steak here on out
Thank you for the enlightenment


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Yup, that's almost the exact spread sheet I saw at the dinner
> It was hard not to become incredulous at how little the return, and how long your money is tied up
> 
> Heh, causing one to feel guilty for eating an offered dinner and not buying product is the lowest ploy of the low.
> ...


how little the return is ?   how about how much the cash flow is ...   an annuity is no more about return  then a pension is .. you can not calculate a return until you die .

so if you are going to chastise a product at least understand it .

the annuity certainly gives you a higher rate of cash flow then you can safely draw from say a 50/50 portfolio where safely you can start at 4% .
so the bond side of a portfolio shared with an spia can be a powerful combo  to your equities .

the best results come from partial annuitization and equites.

assuming a 50/50 mix of cash and bonds , you can see drawing  7k a year from an spia  a year from 100k in cash and bonds would be down to zero in just a bunch of years needing refilling from stocks.. even just taking the standard 4% inflation adjusted would spend the bond/ cash  side of things to zero at a point .

as you spend down a portfolio based on equities /bonds /cash each year the bond/cash side produces less and less .

the annuity income is never reduced by the years prior spending and goes on forever requiring less equities to be sold for inflation adjusting and spending ..

that is the power in using these annuity products.

they provide higher rates of cash flow which require less equities to be sold over time to keep refilling spending. spending down will always deplete your cash and bond buckets so that money is gone no matter what . you just refill from equities as it runs low .

the annuity provides a floor that does not diminish as you spend down so it takes less  refilling  by selling equities later .

it is never about return any more then if you had paid in to a contributory pension at work like many plans are . it is about cash flow  and how you use that cash flow to reduce equity selling which provides higher returns  if you can limit the refilling of bonds and cash longer ..


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> assuming a 50/50 mix of cash and bonds , you can see drawing 7k a year from an spia a year from 100k in cash and bonds would be down to zero in just a bunch of years needing refilling from stocks.
> 
> the annuity income is never reduced by the years prior spending and goes on forever requiring less equities to be sold for inflation adjusting.
> 
> ...


Oh, I fully understand
I guess I'm comparing the return to buying/selling properties

I can buy and acre for $10K, build a little cabin for $5K
Sell it for $30K
Within a year

Why would I ever care to invest in annuities? (steak or no steak)


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Oh, I fully understand
> I guess I'm comparing the return to buying/selling properties
> 
> I can buy and acre for $10K, build a little cabin for $5K
> ...


stop with your nonsense ... we are talking about annuities which are proxies for bonds and cash used to provide spending money .. it is not a proxy for the investment side ...the investment side gets put in whatever you want . most retirees are not going to be 100% equities or land. they will have bonds and cash and annuities are part of that budget if you use them.

perhaps a basic retirement planning course is a good idea , before these silly comments .


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> stop with your nonsense


No nonsense
Just sense

Your kind will never....ever ever ever, tie up my money
*That*....is the bottom line


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> No nonsense
> Just sense
> 
> Your kind will never....ever ever ever, tie up my money
> *That*....is the bottom line


My kind ? I own no annuities .. but whether I ever would own one or not is irrelevant..my kind does not go around believing their own bull sh*t ...we learn from some of the smartest people in the area of retirement research ....we learn not to just keep parroting mis information or what we think is true . My kind uses facts, math and research ...


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

Your kind skirts the blatant issues;

Property investments trump annuities
Been that way for.....let's seeee……...forever

Your kind is full of themselves
and love to belittle anyone that doesn't agree


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Your kind skirts the blatant issues;
> 
> Property investments trump annuities
> Been that way for.....let's seeee……...forever
> ...


I don't belittle anyone ...I try to show them where they are going wrong based on research , so as to try to stop others  from being misinformed ...but sometimes they just insist on believing their own bull sh*t so they refuse to learn why.
Property is no sub for cash and bonds when it comes to what you are spending to live on ....it may provide an income source but ultimately it should be Treated like a stock and dividend ....it is not a replacement for fixed income in a retirement portfolio....annuities are part of that fixed income portion..real estate , stocks and all risky volatile assets are part of the investment side.

it is not a good idea to mix the investment side of things with the fixed income side of things . They have different rolls to play


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Your kind is full of themselves
> and love to belittle anyone that doesn't agree




To wit;



mathjak107 said:


> I don't belittle anyone ...I try to show them where they are going wrong based on research , so as to try to stop other from being misinformed ...but sometimes they just insist on believing their own bull sh*t so they refuse to learn why.
> Property is no sub for cash and bonds when it comes to what you are spending to live on ....it may provide an income source but ultimately it should be Treated like a stock and dividend ....it is not a replacement for fixed income in a retirement portfolio....


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> To wit;


Exactly what I meant ..any way this bickering is going no where so bye


----------



## debodun (Feb 20, 2020)

If they offer a "free meal" they don't have to say what it is. It could be a bologna sandwich and watered down lemonade.  A watch could be a dollar store one. With time shares, you can never get the time you want. Better to book a place yourself for the time and place you want.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> this bickering is going no where so bye



Bye bye now


----------



## C'est Moi (Feb 20, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> you are  sure of nothing ....   how would you know ?  that makes no sense .


I'm as sure as you are, but not as pathetically defensive.


----------



## oldmontana (Feb 20, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> The person giving the pitch is described as "a dedicated and focused insurance professional." I went to one of these for a time share scandal many decades ago.  I got up and ran out when I started seeing a handful of sales scum cheering on when a couple agreed to sign up. Sad that it still goes on.


We get them all the time.  I notice they are not from local investment firms....telling.


----------



## mathjak107 (Feb 21, 2020)

in these parts david lerner was the dinner king .  the salesman pooled their money and ran dinner seminars  all the time .

personally i think their products were way over priced  and the company reputation is awful .   now it looks like they are down to just 1 a month .

they have had some terrible performing products like their private reits and energy funds . they got fined for over charging on their bond sales .  they were fined for selling inappropriate investments to seniors as well as using sales tactics that are not really ethical .

i can't imagine someone going to one for a dry piece of chicken and sitting through this stuff . i rather go to kentucky fried chicken


----------

