# What about a new Community Topic ??



## Happyflowerlady (Mar 19, 2014)

With the recent discussions about what is and isn't allowed in the forums, serious topics being side-tracked, etc., I have been thinking about what possible solution could work for everyone's needs and enjoyment.
Pretty much, we have been fitting the serious discussions (gun control, politics, etc) into whatever category it seemed closest to fitting into, because there is no separate place just for serious debates.
The groups seem to work for that, but it would be nice to have a section just for it, right in the forum itself.

The "Chit-Chat" section pretty well covers the trivial topics that don't fit anywhere else; so how about the same kind of a section for the debaters in the forum ??
Since topics here could get hot, it would be an understanding that you "participate at your own risk", so to speak, with no complaining about political correctness, hurt feelings, or opinions expressed; and only people interested in debating the topic would be exposed to it, rather than these controversial topics being tossed in the mix of the main forum categories.

I thought I would run this idea by everyone, and if it seems like it would work, maybe Matrix can set up a new forum section for debates under the Community, like the Chit-Chat one is.


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## Justme (Mar 19, 2014)

I am not sure that a another section is really necessary!


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## That Guy (Mar 19, 2014)

Personally, I prefer the free-for-all nature of things.


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## i_am_Lois (Mar 19, 2014)

I personally haven't felt like there is a need for more categories. If there was a change to add another, so there is a forum for serious discussions, I wouldn't be opposed. But in all, I think things are fine as they are.


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## Fern (Mar 19, 2014)

> Since topics here could get hot, it would be an understanding that you  "participate at your own risk", so to speak, with no complaining about  political correctness, hurt feelings, or opinions expressed; and only  people interested in debating the topic would be exposed to it, rather  than these controversial topics being tossed in the mix of the main  forum categories.


I have to agree with you, especially politics & religion.  While I at times post in the lighter threads, I enjoy the more serious topics, something you can get your teeth into and then to hear that someone is upset for one reason or another so the thread is withdrawn or worse the poster gets banned, is stifling debate, in my opinion. I have seen this work on other forums, posters who can't take the heat should not be in the kitchen. 
One thing that does bug me is when a poster posts a flippant comment on a serious topic, there's a time & place for everything.


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## Bee (Mar 19, 2014)

Completely agree Fern, nothing more I can add.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 19, 2014)

Fern said:


> I have to agree with you, especially politics & religion.  While I at times post in the lighter threads, I enjoy the more serious topics, something you can get your teeth into and then to hear that someone is upset for one reason or another so the thread is withdrawn or worse the poster gets banned, is stifling debate, in my opinion. I have seen this work on other forums, posters who can't take the heat should not be in the kitchen.
> One thing that does bug me is when a poster posts a flippant comment on a serious topic, there's a time & place for everything.



People that are obnoxious won't stay where people are friendly to them  in the debate, that is my experience.  They like to ruffle feathers and worse, be blatantly rude to others, put others down in order to elevate themselves. So they spread their venom around, they believe in equal abuse.  I am really sorry that folks like this have to deal with others this way, they have probably been abused, who knows.  It's not acceptable in my opinion, on a "family" type forum though.

I don't think good debates ever include "personal" attacks.


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 19, 2014)

nwlady said:


> People that are obnoxious won't stay where people are friendly to them  in the debate, that is my experience.  They like to ruffle feathers and worse, be blatantly rude to others, put others down in order to elevate themselves. So they spread their venom around, they believe in equal abuse.  I am really sorry that folks like this have to deal with others this way, they have probably been abused, who knows.  It's not acceptable in my opinion, on a "family" type forum though.
> 
> I don't think good debates ever include "personal" attacks.



Personal attacks have no place in any conversation, to my way of thinking. Attacking the person simply means that you have no "ammunition" to provide a worthwhile rebuttal to the topic being debated, and does no credit to your skill or intelligence.
That being said, some people think that they personally are being mistreated, when someone is just disagreeing with their opinion on a subject. 
To avoid people getting their feelings hurt when it is just their "feathers that are ruffled" , is exactly the reason why I thought that having a special area where verbal debates are not only allowed, but encouraged; would be a possible alternative to having it in the main threads.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't think we need another "board", I think we need to learn to play nice with each other. Or not, suit yourself.


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## Jillaroo (Mar 19, 2014)

_I don't feel there is any need for a thread for serious discussion, surely the members will see from the content of that thread that it is a serious thread and if they don't wish to add their point of view they just look in the other threads for something that interests them, things will run smoothly as long as no-one goes off topic with the serious conversations and each member respects what each other has to say and realise that we all have different views on things and we won't always agree with everyone.
                 I am not into serious discussions on politics etc but i know a few enjoy the debates and sometimes it may look like they are fighting but that's the enjoyment they get from the meaty subjects they are debating and at the end of the day they are still friends._:coffeelaugh:


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 19, 2014)

nwlady said:


> I don't think we need another "board", I think we need to learn to play nice with each other. Or not, suit yourself.



Playing nice has nothing to do with choices of topics to discuss in the forum ! ! 

There are all sorts of choices of topics already, so why not one for people that simply like to debate things like religion, politics, gun control  ?? 
It doesn't mean that you have to debate any topics if you don't enjoy it, so why are you against those who do enjoy that, having a place where they can debate .....


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## Jillaroo (Mar 19, 2014)

_We do have the groups with Speakers Corner for serious debating so i feel we don't need any on the main forum HFL_

https://www.seniorforums.com/group.php?groupid=2


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 19, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _We do have the groups with Speakers Corner for serious debating so i feel we don't need any on the main forum HFL_


Very true, Jilli, and perhaps thats the best place to keep it, is in the Speaker's corner. The groups are isolated, so no problem of offending anyone there.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 19, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Playing nice has nothing to do with choices of topics to discuss in the forum ! !
> 
> There are all sorts of choices of topics already, so why not one for people that simply like to debate things like religion, politics, gun control  ??
> It doesn't mean that you have to debate any topics if you don't enjoy it, so why are you against those who do enjoy that, having a place where they can debate .....



I think most people like to talk about those things at one time or another.  I don't think there's a person here that is against those things being discussed.  I mean, I don't care if they add a separate board for it, I'm not against it, just saying I don't think we need it.  I brought up playing nice because sometimes we don't, especially in those topics.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 19, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Very true, Jilli, and perhaps thats the best place to keep it, is in the Speaker's corner. The groups are isolated, so no problem of offending anyone there.



Oh we do? I didn't know that Jilli, in that case, there's the place.  I think people can be offended on any board though, if a person wants to offend them, or maybe someone just "thinks" someone is talking about them.  We're people here so there will be misunderstandings.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 19, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> To avoid people getting their feelings hurt when it is just their "feathers that are ruffled" ...



My feathers NEVER get ruffled ...


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## Gael (Mar 20, 2014)

i_am_Lois said:


> I personally haven't felt like there is a need for more categories. If there was a change to add another, so there is a forum for serious discussions, I wouldn't be opposed. But in all, I think things are fine as they are.



I would tend to agree with that. This site has more categories then most of it's type do already.


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## Gael (Mar 20, 2014)

Diwundrin said:


> But it isn't 'free for all' TG, that's the point.  It's only free for one particular taste and level of interest.
> 
> As things stand it seems there is only an on/off switch.  If you wanna act dumbass you're on. If you want to discuss or learn anything you're 'off'... and outa here because you're deemed boring or arrogant... that right?  Really? Mmmmmm.  Not a bright future in that 'tude, dude.
> 
> ...



I think part of this may be based on the complaints of a very few. The administration of this site already has rules set up and just because a few members, one in particular, have issues with posts doesn't to me justify having to go to change catagories.

Ive been on here a relatively short time and have had no major problems navigating about and interacting on a variety of topics irregardless of differing points of view.


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## Justme (Mar 20, 2014)

Personal attacks are wrong, but I do think one should be about to state one's mind freely on any topic.


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## Jackie22 (Mar 20, 2014)

We already have Speakers Corner......it works just fine.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 20, 2014)

*Being A Response ...*



Diwundrin said:


> But it isn't 'free for all' TG, that's the point.  It's only free for one particular taste and level of interest.



I believe it's free for all - the only limitations are the ones people place upon themselves, and subsequently upon others.



> As things stand it seems there is only an on/off switch.  If you wanna act dumbass you're on. If you want to discuss or learn anything you're 'off'... and outa here because you're deemed boring or arrogant... that right?  Really? Mmmmmm.  Not a bright future in that 'tude, dude.



I have no problem throwing that switch on and off. It's when someone attempts to duct-tape it into one position or the other that the problems begin.




> btw Those who equate 'debate' with "venom" have been lurking on the wrong forums.  I've been on plenty where debaters go at it on one thread and joke together on others. (Some of us have been email friends for years, but we still fight on forums.)... and laugh about those who take it wrong and think it's a 'flame war' or something.  To us it's just a game.



You might want to re-examine your use of the term "debate", Di. Formal debates take one of more than 20 forms, but they are all rigidly structured and involve a slew of rules that I'm not sure more than a tenth of a percent on this board would be interested in engaging in.

And when one extrovert with a desire to dominate tries to force debate upon others with an attendant lack of "tact and diplomacy", that's hardly cricket. Then you're re-structuring the entire forum, and all of its members, for that one person.



> The subject and opinions may get ripped into but it's never taken personally by people who enjoy the discussions for their own sake.  That is what debate is for, to express dissent and varied opinion and to take on board other people's views and weigh them up against our own preconceptions.  It isn't about winning and losing, it isn't a competition, it is a discussion of facts and viewpoints to expand our knowledge and to keep our brains active.



Nothing wrong at all with that approach, but again that isn't "true" debate.



> What brings 'venom' is not debate, it is obsession.  Only those with a weak argument or no defence for their attitude resort to invective.   Nutters, frothers and trolls are not debaters.  Too many people fail to understand the difference and are scared off far too easily.



Yet I've known many that wave the banner of debate that could quite easily fit into some of those mentioned categories ... it's simply a tool of high-functioning sociopaths.




> Well or badly stated, blunt or flowery, it's not about a writer's style it's  the content and meaning of their text, which reflects the content of their minds.



Strongly disagree. I could craft a paragraph of poop to make it smell like roses. Style is the envelope within which we derive understanding of the content. Make that envelope ugly enough and it gets tossed in the waste bin before it is even read. 

Buddha himself could be conveying the Great Truths to me, but if he's poking me in the eyes and slapping my face while he's doing it the content won't get through.



> A difference of opinion shouldn't be seen as 'offensive'...   it isn't.  Our opinions aren't sacrosanct, others may and will disagree, that isn't offensive. What is offensive is the presumption that one's personal opinion is more valuable than someone else's to the extent that they demand any dissenter be dismissed from the forum.  Get it?



We live in the Age of Personality. Couple that with a general hardening and limiting of attitudes due to aging and you've got a segment of society that is largely unwilling to tolerate differences. Distill it down to a forum and you've only multiplied the problem.



> On rules of this forum as members seem to think they should operate, and had it been in a different time and place,  Abe Lincoln would have been banned for having views not aligned with common consensus. So would Mandela, he was a terrorist to some people's way of thinking, it all depends on time place and viewpoint how 'right' something is.



Lincoln and Mandela were both jerks - there, I've said it. Now the Thought Police can kick me out along with you.



> Just because most people agree on something doesn't always mean that it is right. Only  that most people think it is.  Usually for no better reason than it suits them to believe it because it makes their lives easier or builds their own 'self esteem'.



At this stage of the game I don't see any harm in that. What is _ever_ more important than ourselves? It's primal instinct, covered only by the glossy sheen of socialization. And having put up with so much in life, why _shouldn't_ we be entitled to a little satisfaction? 



> Why were so many 'offended' by JustSayin ???   Can you say exactly what it was that offended you so much?  I detected no bad language just a rhinocerous level lack of tact and diplomacy.
> 
> What was it about the content of his views that you found 'offensive'??  Nothing more than he shone some light on a few failings most, including me, have?



I find it inappropriate to speak ill of the dead.




> I qualified for most of what he mentioned, thread hijacking, done that myself, sarcasm, done that, butting in where I shouldn't, yup, that too.  Dropping flippant smartarse comments into other people's deep and meaningfuls?  Ooooh yeah, often.  Left school at 15, yep, so undereducated fits.  But what I try not to be is a hypocrite.  I took on board what he *said*, (not how he said it!)  recognised myself in it and found I agreed with him 100%.   He wasn't wrong.



So does this mean that from this point forward we shall never again see you hijack a thread, or be sarcastic, or butt in, or drop smart-ass remarks? 

Somehow I doubt that, and I certainly don't wish it. It's what makes you, _you_. If we were to all engage in the SS lockstep that is the vision of some former (and present?) members, we'd be a merry bunch of marchers and we'd look real pretty but we wouldn't have a single brain among us.



> It's okay if that's the best we can manage, no really, it is. It's okay not to join in everything going on. It's okay to sit back, lurk, read, and be entertained by those who want to write posts. That is not the problem at all.  The problem only comes when those who can't be bothered want to stop others who want to go the effort.



This I agree with 100%.



> If the ROM number here (the 'read only members') insisted that everyone only post where they do then no one would be allowed to post at all right?   So who gets all the say in who posts what where?  I'll hazard a bet there are more members than there are posters so democracy demands that we all only read, not write.
> Think about that.  It will literally be 'watch this *space!
> *



I'm not sure it would work out that way, at least if other forums I've seen crash and burn are any indication. More likely there will be the formation of an elite Supergroup who take it upon themselves to decide where and what to post, and Buddha help you if you aren't invited for membership. It becomes an exclusive clubhouse, a small one, granted, but one in which all of its members believe their cause is just.

Wars have been started for less. And like wars, the innocents will suffer the most and will attempt to flee the war-zone. 



> Only arrogant people think they already know everything they need to know, or everything that is worth knowing.



Perhaps that is all they really DO need to know - you're _judging_. You're imposing your Rules of Order upon others. Perhaps it's not arrogance at all, but satisfaction and happiness - who are _we_ to deny them that? Of course, that does not give them the right to censure _us_, either.



> The 'devil may care' 'just wanna have fun' 'let's keep it light' comments are simply cover ups for "I can't be bothered with this s**t, I don't understand it and can't compete with it so it bores me and I just want to stop people doing it because I'm embarassed that I dont care enough to keep up."   "I know! If I complain about them being arrogant for caring more about the world's happenings than I do then maybe they'll just go away."



Huge generalization and, at least in my case, totally wrong.



> Those wishing I would go away are going to have to wish a whole lot harder.  I thought about it,  but I'll drop in as long as I'm allowed,  to fight the forces of dumbness and apathy till day I kark!  Those wishing for that day are going to have to wish harder too, but you will succeed eventually, that should be a comfort.



On the contrary - I hope you stay.



> True arrogance is the shutting out of anyone who challenges the validity of the warm and fuzzy comfort zone we deem as the pinnacle of our personal aspiration.



But what if they're right? That's certainly a possibility, is it not?



> That comfort zone you're defending may indeed be just the feed lot where we  "sheeple" are being fattened for consumption.  And those scary and offensive 'debating type' people may very well be the guard dogs, on watch and barking to alert us to the wolves out there who are feeding on our apathy.  If you shoot the guard dogs then all you have left is the wolves.  How smart is that again??



More like the guard dogs are gathered in their clique talking water-cooler talk and totally ignoring us, the stupid flock.

You don't think guard dogs really CARE about sheep, do you? 



> You don't have to play with the guard dogs you know, you can go on grazing peacefully on cat piccys and chat about all manner of things as though the barking dogs aren't even there.  They not interferring with your lifestyle, they just want to interfere with the wolves' lifestyles.



You KNOW that isn't entirely true ... a dog is a wolf by its very nature; _any_ movement triggers a pursuit response. It just has better grooming and gets to sleep in the barn.



> Personally I find the timidity shown by members when confronted with something beyond their normal experiences quite astounding.  Some must live in a very small and sheltered world.  Fine for them I guess, but they shouldn't feel they must drag everyone else into it.  Some of us are quite comfortable living in a bigger one and visiting theirs when we feel the mood for a bit of fun and games or chatter.  They should feel welcome to visit ours or at least tolerate us living in the neighbourhood.  We won't run rampant through their fun and games threads, we'd be too busy butting our heads against the wall of wolves in Big Oil/Crooked Gubbermints/the UN/Political shysters/Science... you know, all that boring stuff.
> 
> That okay with everybody?  Anybody?



Personally I enjoy drive-bys but I understand it isn't everyone's cup of tea. Most just want to be locked up in their homes and be entertained by the boob tube, and those pesky guns going off outside are just a distraction. 



> PS... re taking it to Groups.  Why are only serious discussions to be banished as something shameful?
> Yes anything that is likely to include the odd angry shot perhaps but not everything in the slightest way contentious surely.



A public forum, of necessity for survival, must appeal to the masses. Perhaps we've HAD enough serious discussions in the real world and come here to relax. Again, nothing wrong with those who want to continue the serious side of things, but don't slap down the majority who just want to kick-back and relax. That's being a bit too Lenin.



> It's often mentioned that the public read our posts and we should watch our ps and qs... well what exactly interests that wider lurking audience?  Do you think they flock to this forum to hear about our dinner menus or newest cat piccys?  Some very well may, but a lot look in to forums to watch the verbal jousts.  If that content is to be taken out of the public gaze then those seniors who need a place to converse will see only the fun and games and move on thinking that is all there is.  We will lose those potential members who can be interesting and informative assets.



Sources, please. layful:


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## Gael (Mar 20, 2014)

Justme said:


> Personal attacks are wrong, but I do think one should be about to state one's mind freely on any topic.



Absolutely. And it can be done in a civil fashion, though some find that hard to do.


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## Davey Jones (Mar 20, 2014)

*SifuPhil*

Thats one helluva of long post to several(20) posters.
I went thru 2 diet cokes,peanut and jelly sandwiche(end slices)bag of Cheetos,chocolate chip muffin,trip to the bathroom. But I did manage to read it all.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 20, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> *SifuPhil*
> 
> Thats one helluva of long post to several(20) posters.
> I went thru 2 diet cokes,peanut and jelly sandwiche(end slices)bag of Cheetos,chocolate chip muffin,trip to the bathroom. But I did manage to read it all.



LOL!

Yeah, for a minimalist sometimes I'm long-winded. 

See, I'm a better appetite stimulator than cannabis!


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## Vivjen (Mar 20, 2014)

Di, and Phil, I think you both make very good verbal jousters; and, as you know, I am very willing to join in if I feel I can add to the conversation; as does TG, I am sure; and many others I could name.

I even understand with you being p----d off with his absence , and I also admit to hi-jacking, sarcasm, and everything else; I won't stop either.

However, I did not enjoy coming on here to find what I felt to be personal abuse aimed at people who felt unable to defend themselves... When they were only trying to voice their opinions. 

There, I have said it; and none of it was aimed at me...I was not prepared to join in; even if interested in a subject.

I don't regard myself as being totally stupid; but I felt it....and belittled...hence I too disappeared for a while.

When I did pluck up. Courage to write what I felt was a reasonable reply to one thread; it was deleted!!

I hasten to add; this is my personal opinion.......not those of any management.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 20, 2014)

Justme said:


> Personal attacks are wrong, but I do think one should be about to state one's mind freely on any topic.



I couldn't agree more, I am absolutely for people stating their thoughts, ideas and opinions.  What I don't go with are personal attacks on people, rudeness, out and out un-kindness.  I've been shown (by my own conscience) where I need to watch what I say as well from now on.  Someone mentioned people feeling more free to say anything they like online, then they would in a face to face situation.  I know that has been true for me.  In my opinion, we are all adults and we should be able to monitor our own behaviour, quit pointing fingers at others, and stop making it necessary for the site-admins to come in kick our butts, geeeeeeeeeez.

This is NOT to you Justme, and again, I really agree, and like what you said here Denise


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## Denise1952 (Mar 20, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Di, and Phil, I think you both make very good verbal jousters; and, as you know, I am very willing to join in if I feel I can add to the conversation; as does TG, I am sure; and many others I could name.
> 
> I even understand with you being p----d off with his absence , and I also admit to hi-jacking, sarcasm, and everything else; I won't stop either.
> 
> ...



Well I agree, and I'm gonna say it, good for you Viv!!


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## Denise1952 (Mar 20, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> *SifuPhil*
> 
> Thats one helluva of long post to several(20) posters.
> I went thru 2 diet cokes,peanut and jelly sandwiche(end slices)bag of Cheetos,chocolate chip muffin,trip to the bathroom. But I did manage to read it all.



LOL, oh man, I needed that laugh this a.m. Say it like it is Davey:lofl:Now I'm going to bring in my provisions and go read Phil's post, layful:


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## Denise1952 (Mar 20, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> I believe it's free for all - the only limitations are the ones people place upon themselves, and subsequently upon others.
> 
> I have no problem throwing that switch on and off. It's when someone attempts to duct-tape it into one position or the other that the problems begin.
> 
> _snipped...._



I hope no one is offended, I don't intend to do that, but I do want Phil to know he is appreciated, a lot. Denise


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## That Guy (Mar 20, 2014)

Whew . . . read through it all and still say as long as there are none of the stupid flaming personal attacks, I throughly enjoy the "free-for-all" and choose to just go with the flow.  I agree and disagree with a lot of what's opined here but have neither the time nor energy to engage in long winded discussions. 

That group over in the corner is discussing world politics while some out on the porch are talking about their gardens and those laughing hilariously are sharing a joke.  Me?  I'm just wandering about the crowd enjoying it all and chiming in with a pot shot or two.  God Bless the flippant remark . . . !  Oh, and I do not suffer arrogant know-it-alls well . . . but defend their right to be so . . . just as long as they keep their attacks on the facts and not personal.  If I don't like them or their spouts, I just ignore them as they do me...


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## Pappy (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok Davey, better grab another coke cause it's my turn.

Back in May of 2013, I joined this forum because there was the older generation who have lived a lifetime of experiences and stories. In my very first posts, I said that I loved to reminisce about my experiences and wanted to hear yours also. I also stated that I would try to stay away from the more serious debates as I felt that I didn't have the knowledge on some subjects. I do enjoy posting jokes, cartoons, my pictures and a lot of nonsense in general. I realize a lot of you do not care for this sort of thing and no doubt just skipped over them, as it should be. The below post was posted on Mar. 15th.

i think joining this forum is the best thing since sliced bread. I can express myself in more ways than I would ever to some of my friends.i don't join in a lot of the more intelligent conversations as I have a limited amount of education and do not feel qualified to speak on these subjects.
i have always gone out of my way to avoid subjects that I don't feel comfortable in, although I enjoy reading ALL your conversations. I say, bring it on, I'm listening, just not commenting.

You may have noticed that I post a lot of silly, stupid things, but I have found that a chuckle here and there can avoid a serious confrontation. On another thread, a mention of silly one-liners prove nothing. This is true, I know, but that's just me. I love to joke around and I realize that not everyone appreciates it, but I'm too old to change now folks. So I remain the non serious old teenager.

That at was it. No attacks on anyone. Me being me. What I don't understand is why I became the scape goat for a certain poster. Words like, low esteem, stupid, looking for folks to feel sorry for me. I wasn't hurt, I was pissed. I answered the best I could which brought more down grading replays. Then this poster started another thread with more of the same. Right there, the smart thing to have done was shut off Ipad and gone to bed but I course I had to open my big mouth again. 

So people, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And as far as getting banned, the poster would still be posting if he hadn't sent me a down grading message.
That's where I draw the line.

i do value all your friendships and posts. Thank for listening, 
Pappy


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## Denise1952 (Mar 20, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Whew . . . read through it all and still say as long as there are none of the stupid flaming personal attacks, I throughly enjoy the "free-for-all" and choose to just go with the flow.  I agree and disagree with a lot of what's opined here but have neither the time nor energy to engage in long winded discussions.
> 
> That group over in the corner is discussing world politics while some out on the porch are talking about their gardens and those laughing hilariously are sharing a joke.  Me?  I'm just wandering about the crowd enjoying it all and chiming in with a pot shot or two.  God Bless the flippant remark . . . !  *Oh, and I do not suffer arrogant know-it-alls well . . . but defend their right to be so . . . just as long as they keep their attacks on the facts and not personal*.  If I don't like them or their spouts, I just ignore them as they do me...



Ditto on all, and especially the above in bold, Denise


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## That Guy (Mar 20, 2014)

Hooray Pappy!  I thoroughly enjoy and look forward to your reminiscing!!!


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