# Active shooter at Fort Hood Texas



## Warrigal (Apr 2, 2014)

Is everyone aware that there is an active shooter at the Texas Army base that was the site of a gun rampage in 2009 that left 13 soldiers dead and another 32 wounded ? One or two shooters but still unconfirmed, according to my radio.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26863033


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## Ina (Apr 2, 2014)

Yes Warrigal, I watching it now. It happened at 4:25 pm. So far 1 dead, 2 shooters. I can't believe it has happened again!


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## maxHR (Apr 2, 2014)

9000 people are shot dead in america each year, - that's over 24 per day. another day, another rush on guns.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 2, 2014)

They have changed it now to the usual story. One shooter, on medications, (no second shooter mentioned now), and even though he was "being engaged" by law enforcement, he is supposed to have killed himself with a shot to the head.
They say it was some kind of a soldier-to-soldier fight; even though this doesn't seem to make sense how he could have killed so many people, so it is being questioned.
First shots were reported at about 4:30, but after 5pm, people were still reporting hearing shots, so how could it have lasted almost an hour ?? 
Again, no actual coverage of the scene, not even by helicopters; just pictures of vehicles being turned back at the gate. 

Apparently, even the soldiers are not being told what actually happened, and many people are being sheltered off of the post tonite, according to reports online.


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## Warrigal (Apr 2, 2014)

Seems to happen a lot.
Déjà vu anyone?

 We had some déjà vu too today - a 61yo woman taken by a shark and a 38yo diver missing, feared eaten, another member of parliament up before a corruption investigation, more announcements of lost manufacturing jobs (BP, Boeing and Philip Morris) - but it would seem that no-one got shot last night.


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## Justme (Apr 3, 2014)

More gun crime in the US!


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## Judi.D (Apr 3, 2014)

They are reporting it right now on CNN. Apparently there are 3 died and 16 injured, 3 in critical condition. I think there is often confusion initially when things like this first happen, and reports that first come out are often inaccurate.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 3, 2014)

maxHR said:


> 9000 people are shot dead in america each year, - that's over 24 per day. another day, another rush on guns.



Lets wait till rt3 gets here and explain...again.. that guns dont kill people.


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## rkunsaw (Apr 3, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Lets wait till rt3 gets here and explain...again.. that guns dont kill people.



How many times does something have to be explained before you begin to understand?


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## That Guy (Apr 3, 2014)

When young people are sent to hell they often bring it home with them.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> How many times does something have to be explained before you begin to understand?



They can't understand if they won't hear Rkunsaw, we just need to copy and paste all of our past posts and _maybe _something will sink in.  This is yet another case of a mentally ill person being prescribed anti-depressants which are known to cause violent behavior, homicides and suicides. http://www.ssristories.org/ .

They also have not learned from past incidents at these facilities, that making them gun-free zones, when there are plenty of experienced military there, that could have stopped these killing before they even happened, are just making them more susceptible to shootings like this in the future.  They'd rather call 911, and sit and wait for "first responders" to arrive on the scene.

It appears that there may have been some kind of an FBI warning given beforehand? http://www.infowars.com/ft-hood-off...suggest-soldiers-can-wait-minutes-for-police/


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

One outsider's view - you're all insane to put your faith in guns to conquer gun rampages.
One church is doing just that and I think this is the biggest insanity of all.

[h=1]Guns for Jesus: Churches fill their pews with weapons giveaways[/h]







Grace Baptist Church in Troy, N.Y., is giving away a modified AR-15, joining other churches using firearms giveaways to draw people in to hear religious and 2nd Amendment messages.                                                 
(Mike McMahon / Troy Record / March 7, 2014)                                         









By Patt Morrison                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 March 11, 2014, 7:19 a.m.


                                                                                     What would Jesus shoot?
Some churches in Kentucky and in upstate New York are doing what it takes to get people into the pews to hear the word of God — and in their neck of the woods, that means giving away guns.

The flier for the raffle at Grace Baptist Church, in Troy, N.Y.,  shows an AR-15 — an assault rifle altered to make it legal in that state — with a quote from the gospel of St. John, “My peace I give unto you.” It isn’t spelled “piece,” but it could have been.





http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opin...eaways-20140311,0,2844960.story#ixzz2xrWXDSdx

Come the day I have to leave this country as a refugee, I'm not heading across the Pacific. A short hop across the Tasman Sea will do me.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2014)

The guns don't do the rampaging, the mentally ill people do.  Not trying to change anyone's opinion here, to each his own.


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## muckferret (Apr 3, 2014)

Tis time for a gun amnesty like they did here in Australia otherwise the killing will go on.


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## maxHR (Apr 3, 2014)

The australian solution won't work in the united states. Australia never had the severe addiction and obsession about guns that america has.
They will just keep shooting each other till everyone is dead, then the chinese will take over.


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## muckferret (Apr 3, 2014)

Nothing is impossible oh naked one hehehe all they have to do is get rid of the gun lobby and change the constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

I agree that the Australian solution won't work in America but nothing will do any good unless there is an acknowledgement that a serious problem exists. Where is the will to even examine the problem of the shear number of incidents involving multiple shootings?

It's no good blaming the mentally ill. They aren't that way by choice. However, if there is a need to divert more resources to this health issue, then it should be considered, even if it means increasing taxes. What price innocent human lives of fellow Americans? 

Why is the subject so taboo? Why shouldn't all deadly weapons be registered and some prohibited? Why shouldn't they be confiscated when it becomes apparent that someone is unstable? I am truly perplexed.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> The guns don't do the rampaging, the mentally ill people do.  Not trying to change anyone's opinion here, to each his own.



This is true.  I wonder when I hear folks putting down the US, even citizens of the US, but where do so many call when they need help?  There have always been weapons in the world.  If people choose not to have them be legal, that is up to them to vote or make those laws.  I still say that even if the US made owning a gun illegal, we would still have people with guns, people that don't obey the law.

I'm sure I might have a different opinion, or ideas if I'd been raised in a different country, but I wasn't, I've been raised in the US, and I am blessed.  I'm sure others feel that way about their countries as well.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 3, 2014)

Taking guns away from honest people will not do a thing to stop the senseless shootings. They don't use their guns unless needed to defend their self.
It is the criminals who have most of the guns here, and even if all of the law-abiding people dutifully turned in their guns, the criminals are certainly not going to give up  their weapons; so we would then be even worse off then we are now. We would still have all of the crime, and no way to protect our self at all.

What you are suggesting, turning in all the guns, might have worked at one time; but that time has long since come and gone. Those cows are out of the barn, trampled the garden, and now running through the cornfield.
 Shutting the barn door is NOT going to work any more.
We have to deal with the situation as it is now. And that is rich crime lords financing high powered weapons for criminals, and our government does not even try to stop that; they just want to take away the only protection that the law-abiding person has.
Stricter background checks is a good idea, then people with mental issues would not be able to just walk in to a store and buy a gun. I don't have any problems at all with regulation of gun sales. However, illegal guns seem to be easy enough for criminals to get that this wouldn't affect about anyone who seriously wanted to find a weapon.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Taking guns away from honest people will not do a thing to stop the senseless shootings. They don't use their guns unless needed to defend their self.
> It is the criminals who have most of the guns here, and even if all of the law-abiding people dutifully turned in their guns, the criminals are certainly not going to give up  their weapons; so we would then be even worse off then we are now. We would still have all of the crime, and no way to protect our self at all.
> 
> What you are suggesting, turning in all the guns, might have worked at one time; but that time has long since come and gone. Those cows are out of the barn, trampled the garden, and now running through the cornfield.
> ...



Excellent post HFL.  This is how I see it as well, denise


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

That Guy said:


> When young people are sent to hell they often bring it home with them.



I agree TG


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> There have always been weapons in the world. If people choose not to have them be legal, that is up to them to vote or make those laws. I still say that even if the US made owning a gun illegal, we would still have people with guns, people that don't obey the law.
> 
> I'm sure I might have a different opinion, or ideas if I'd been raised in a different country, but I wasn't, I've been raised in the US, and I am blessed. I'm sure others feel that way about their countries as well.



Well said Nwlady! The saying 'if they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns', is very true. Like you, I am born and raised in the USA, and blessed to be here, and don't plan to leave.

Like you, I understand that people in other countries have different opinions and points of view about these things, and I am mature enough to understand and not resort to calling them insane, or other names. 

If they are happy with their country's laws, good for them, I am not to judge. If someone is not comfortable around weapons, then they surely should stay away from them, that is the sensible thing for them to do. Am I going to call them names for their beliefs, no way, what right do I have to belittle them?


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

My thoughts in blue.



Happyflowerlady said:


> Taking guns away from honest people will not do a thing to stop the senseless shootings. They don't use their guns unless needed to defend their self.
> 
> Then don't take them away from honest citizens but if registration involved a police check you might discover that some of the "honest people" have a hidden history of violence or serious mental health issues. Anyone not prepared to undergo a police check, or who refuses to register, is probably hiding something and ought not be allowed to keep firearms.
> 
> ...


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Well said Nwlady! The saying 'if they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns', is very true. Like you, I am born and raised in the USA, and blessed to be here, and don't plan to leave.
> 
> Like you, I understand that people in other countries have different opinions and points of view about these things, and I am mature enough to understand and not resort to calling them insane, or other names.
> 
> If they are happy with their country's laws, good for them, I am not to judge. If someone is not comfortable around weapons, then they surely should stay away from them, that is the sensible thing for them to do. Am I going to call them names for their beliefs, no way, what right do I have to belittle them?



Yeah, what's up with that, putting down America, when we seem to be one of the leaders in helping other countries?  I mean don't a lot of countries call on us for help?  It's like America sucks but let's use them for what we can get out of them?  America is made up of people from all Nations, isn't that pretty much true?  Maybe that is what makes us as strong as we are.  Are other countries jealous?  Heck if I know.  I'm damn sure that America has done a lot for others though.  I mean, maybe I should go spend some time just researching how many times America has gone in to help other countries.  Maybe we shouldn't, I don't like the fact we've lost so many lives helping others.  I know too, we are not the only country that helps others, not saying that.  

I guess I'm really saying who can cast the first stone??  Are you so perfect you can look down on the US?  I guess I better get into studying other countries and how they are operating.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Ok, here ya go:

Actually, if the Australian Bureau of Criminology can be believed, Americans would be insane to concern themselves with what non-Americans think about American gun rights.
_In 2002 — five years after enacting its gun ban — the Australian   Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun   control and the use of firearms in violent crime.  In fact, the percent   of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been  in  2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner._
_Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research  acknowledges  that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount  of gun-involved  crime:_
_ In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
****** assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
 Moreover, Australia and the United States — where no gun-ban exists — both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:


Here's the whole link if you care to read.  I don't say everything on the web is true, but if it's there, you might try and check out whether it's true or not:
http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012...duce-violent-crime-ask-the-aussies-and-brits/



_


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## maxHR (Apr 3, 2014)

There have been many attempts to discredit Australia's gun laws, usually by going off into another area like rape or robbery. The gun laws were about the stopping of death by guns. its done its job, its still doing its job. 
Is the job finished? no, its never finished and needs to be constantly watched for the nutty obsessed to find a way to circumvent laws.
     If what happened in america stayed in america i'd be happy, but the obsession with gun violence is exported to all countries around the world.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Well, whatever, but one thing I know for sure, and that is our heads are NOT any bigger than any other peoples.  It's about passing the buck, or putting down someone else to try and make yourself look better. 

Like I said before, if you think you are so perfect you feel you can look down on someone else, well, good, bloody luck with that!


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

What, did everyone vacate the premises?


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> Yeah, what's up with that, putting down America, when we seem to be one of the leaders in helping other countries?  I mean don't a lot of countries call on us for help?  It's like America sucks but let's use them for what we can get out of them?  America is made up of people from all Nations, isn't that pretty much true?  Maybe that is what makes us as strong as we are.  Are other countries jealous?  Heck if I know.  I'm damn sure that America has done a lot for others though.  I mean, maybe I should go spend some time just researching how many times America has gone in to help other countries.  Maybe we shouldn't, I don't like the fact we've lost so many lives helping others.  I know too, we are not the only country that helps others, not saying that.
> 
> I guess I'm really saying who can cast the first stone??  Are you so perfect you can look down on the US?  I guess I better get into studying other countries and how they are operating.



Who is putting America down? Speaking only for myself, I can't understand a situation where your children, your soldiers and innocent people in mall and movie theatres are being gunned down en masse and the idea that something could be down to improve the situation is a taboo subject. That's what I think is insane, the unwillingness to address a very serious problem.

This topic has little to do with appreciating (or not) America's overseas military actions. We have our own soldiers in many of the same conflicts. I can't remember any massacres committed by veterans although sadly a number have shot themselves.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Who is putting America down? Speaking only for myself, I can't understand a situation where your children, your soldiers and innocent people in mall and movie theatres are being gunned down en masse and the idea that something could be down to improve the situation is a taboo subject. That's what I think is insane, the unwillingness to address a very serious problem.
> 
> This topic has little to do with appreciating (or not) America's overseas military actions. We have our own soldiers in many of the same conflicts. I can't remember any massacres committed by veterans although sadly a number have shot themselves.



Don't you have enough to deal with in your own country?  I don't get why you are so busy trying to fix ours??  I think if everyone would take care of their own backyard first, then branch out and try to help others.  I think the same for America.  We need to work on our own issues before we go out trying to fix others.


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## Ina (Apr 3, 2014)

Max, Thank you for that information. I agree that as a country, there are several actions we could implement, as suggested above, without having to give up guns altogether. Civilians have no need of automatic weaponry. I grew up hunting, and I never saw anyone hunt with anything automatic. I also grew up with hand guns, and was taught how to use them for protection. A revolver was all that was needed. 

 Although, we were not the first or only country with these problems. A lot of our violence has come from the many countries to our south. Many brought their own automatic weapons into this country. If our government would strengthen our border control, and do more background checks on the many we let just walk in, that would be a start.

Although I love my country, I don't like the way we've come to think of ourselves as the saviors of the world. It is one thing to go and "help" another country, but we have pushed our way into situations without an invitation too many times. And people wonder why these countries don't "like" us.

From what I can see of our influence in the middle east, we haven't fixed their many centuries of conflict. OIL had a lot to do with gaining our "support".

If we would bring our forces home and let them work at our own problems, things might show some progress. And maybe so many of our servicemen wouldn't be dealing with PTS, much less need drugs for depression. :hide:


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

> I think if everyone would take care of their own backyard first, then branch out and try to help others.


That's what we are trying to say. In our backyard we have made a difference. It wasn't easy and there was resistance to the measures but the benefits have been measurable. 

Our solution is not necessarily your solution but for heaven's sake, why aren't you looking for a solution that will work for you? From this distance it looks like nothing much is happening about working on this issue. It looks like stalemate, unless you think everyone going out and buying more firearms is a solution. in which case I say, "God help America".

PS This is why I usually prefer to raise issues like this one in Speakers' Corner. It is too upsetting for many members to talk about.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2014)

Back to the fact that these mass shootings are done by mentally ill people who are under the influence of prescription anti-physchotic, anti-depressant drugs which cause violent behavior and homicidal/suicidal tendencies...what's unfortunate is although most of Texas has the right to concealed carry, the military at this facility are not permitted to protect themselves, regardless of the previous shootings there.



> • *Eric* *Harris* age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.
> 
> • Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
> 
> ...


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> That's what we are trying to say. In our backyard we have made a difference. It wasn't easy and there was resistance to the measures but the benefits have been measurable.
> 
> Our solution is not necessarily your solution but for heaven's sake, why aren't you looking for a solution that will work for you? From this distance it looks like nothing much is happening about working on this issue. It looks like stalemate, unless you think everyone going out and buying more firearms is a solution. in which case I say, "God help America".
> 
> PS This is why I usually prefer to raise issues like this one in Speakers' Corner. It is too upsetting for many members to talk about.



Oh give me a break WG, you can't tell me Australia has it all together. Geez.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

If you mean perfect, then no. But we have improved the situation nationally.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> From this distance it looks like nothing much is happening about working on this issue. It looks like stalemate, unless you think everyone going out and buying more firearms is a solution. in which case I say, "God help America".
> 
> PS This is why I usually prefer to raise issues like this one in Speakers' Corner. It is too upsetting for many members to talk about.



One solution would be to stop putting our kids on prescription drugs like Ritalin when they are in grade school, and exhibiting normal behaviors. Also, not to have them graduate to other dangerous anti-depressant drugs when they're teens and adults.

However, the pharmaceutical corporations are big business, supported by government interests, so that won't be happening any time soon.

Other than that, we need to keep these guns out of the hands of criminals, not to disarm responsible law-abiding American citizens. If it means having more people who are trained and comfortable with the use of weapons carrying them to avoid tragedies like this, than so be it.

It's not upsetting for me at all to talk about, but what can be upsetting at times is people bringing up these issues to drive in their opinions and views, while having a deaf ear to what others of opposing views are saying.

There have been many cases of good citizens protecting their families and property with legal firearms, and not acknowledging that is hiding one's head in the sand. Not acknowledging that most of these shooters were on prescription drugs for mental illness, does not assist in a solution either, by those in the US or other countries.

It's easy to blame only the guns, and want to get rid of them all, but in places like Chicago, where most of the shootings are done by street gangs/criminals, either targeting each other or innocent victims, makes it hard to compare the US to other countries. And it's a fact that those places with the strictest gun laws, are the areas with most of the crimes.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Back to the fact that these mass shootings are done by mentally ill people who are under the influence of prescription anti-physchotic, anti-depressant drugs which cause violent behavior and homicidal/suicidal tendencies...what's unfortunate is although most of Texas has the right to concealed carry, the military at this facility are not permitted to protect themselves, regardless of the previous shootings there.



SeaBreeze, I've seen that list before and it is one person's testimony before a Bipartisan Task Force on Gun Violence Prevention and Children’s Safety in Connecticut. By following that lead, I see that there is a website that reports on the findings of this group.

It may be interesting to read them. The latest, from March last year are

[h=2]March 5, 2013        Working Groups Release Proposals ​[/h]

Gun Violence Prevention Working Group: Democratic Consensus Proposal
Gun Violence Prevention Working Group: Republican Consensus Proposal
School Security Working Group Recommendations
Mental Health Services Working Group Recommendations

No non Americans had input into these proposals as far as I know and the focus in not exclusively on mental illness but it is certainly addressed.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Who is putting America down? Speaking only for myself, I can't understand a situation where your children, your soldiers and innocent people in mall and movie theatres are being gunned down en masse and the idea that something could be down to improve the situation is a taboo subject. That's what I think is insane, the unwillingness to address a very serious problem.
> 
> This topic has little to do with appreciating (or not) America's overseas military actions. We have our own soldiers in many of the same conflicts. I can't remember any massacres committed by veterans although sadly a number have shot themselves.



Warri, I believe that most Americans ARE concerned about the mass shootings; but we seem to have very little say in what the government chooses to deal with anymore. Often times, it seems like the criminals are protected, at least the big enough ones. Law enforcement is used to target citizens (often innocent ones), while the real Bad Guys get away with whatever they want. you hardly ever hear of a big-time criminal being put in prison anymore; just the small time ones.
As for the mental illness part; that remains to be addressed. 
Like That Guy stated, when our soldiers are sent to hell, they often bring it back with them.  This is nothing new, soldier from the time of WW1 have come home with PTSD from combat; it simply wasn't called that back then, it was only known as "battle fatigue", not a very accurate title. 
Equally, we have always had the mentally ill with us, and like you say, they can't help being sick, and unable to think reasonably.  (They are, however, being treated with modern drugs that have been shown to have dangerous side effects now days. So this could explain part of the problem.)

Still ...... We have not always had these horrendous shootings, even though we always were allowed to have guns. It is not just that there are the semi-automatic  weapons now, there were machine guns back in the days of Bonnie and Clyde, and Al Capone.  Therefore; something else is different now, and it is something that has started fairly recently. 
Stories of mind control float around the internet, and several of the shooters have even spoken of something like this. 
Since they always ending up "suicided", or hopelessly crazy/drugged afterwards; it is pretty hard to determine exactly WHAT is going on. Information is hushed up, things that should be public, are not disclosed. 

So, yes, we want to know what is going on, and WHY, and we want it stopped. We never know what tragedy will strike next, or where.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

> Like That Guy stated, when our soldiers are sent to hell, they often bring it back with them.  This is nothing new, soldier from the time of WW1 have come home with PTSD from combat; it simply wasn't called that back then, it was only known as "battle fatigue", not a very accurate title.



You're not telling us in Oz anything that we don't already know. We were engaged in WWI from 1915 to the end, and WWII from 1939 to 1945. Our soldiers were in the thick of it in Africa, Turkey, France, Belgium, the Pacific including PNG and Burma. Since then they have served in Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and other conflicts. We missed the Falklands war, but not much else. We know all about shell shock, war fatigue, agent orange and PTSD but all of that is a side issue. None of ours have become mass murderers with automatic weapons. 

I don't know why our two countries have such different outcomes in terms of gun deaths. Isn't it worth searching for an answer to that question? For your sake, not ours.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> If you mean perfect, then no. But we have improved the situation nationally.



So now Australia is making improvements but the US isn't.  You know, I guess it's just like one person telling another what they should do.  When I see your life, as being something I want to mirror, then I may listen.  I suppose my problem here is I don't know you, and I don't know Australian Government.  But what I do know, is I love my country, the good, bad, and the ugly, I wouldn't trade it for another.  And if I hear anyone even slightly try to put it down, I will stand by it, because that's just the way I am.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

and from what I've read, and also posted, there isn't a huge difference WG.  I'm sorry, but you are not an American.  You can't know the whole deal unless you are.  It's another of those "until you've walked in our shoes".  Like I implied before, I am guessing you have plenty to deal with in Austrailia, so I don't really "get" why you are so fired up to "help" the US?  Can you tell me why?


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## Ina (Apr 3, 2014)

When other countries quit worrying about the welfare of America, we better kiss our behinds good by. And when we as a country get to the point of not caring what the rest of the world thinks of us or our deeds, we will have already kissed our behinds good by.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

If you read back Ina, you will see that this isn't about caring for America, this is about putting America and American's down.  I'm seeing a lot of this on the internet, which is all I really have access to.  I'm not going to stand by and let anyone put America down.

and please don't make me go back and copy and paste, just read it.  If you don't see what I see, well, we can agree to disagree.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> If you read back Ina, you will see that this isn't about caring for America, this is about putting America and American's down.  I'm seeing a lot of this on the internet, which is all I really have access to.  I'm not going to stand by and let anyone put America down.


I'm sorry that you see it this way NWLady. In my mind it is about loss of life. 
In other parts of the world children's lives are lost due to starvation and disease. 
I see that as something that needs people working towards a solution too.

I'm really not trying to put America and Americans down.
Just shaking my head at the apparent lack of action.
I don't understand it at all.

If I'm wrong and you are taking action and doing some good in this area, I'd love to hear about it.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 3, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I'm sorry that you see it this way NWLady. In my mind it is about loss of life.
> In other parts of the world children's lives are lost due to starvation and disease.
> I see that as something that needs people working towards a solution too.
> 
> ...



That's it, you see an "apparent lack of action" rather than the good that is being done.  I know without looking that there is action being taken to remedy our imperfections. I for one American don't need your criticisms of how we are doing in our country, not until I see perfection in yours.  You don't want to listen to what I am saying, that's apparent, so I won't spend any more time here.  I know you are wrong, and that is enough for me.


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## maxHR (Apr 4, 2014)

The figures are even worse than i thought, i mentioned 9000 or 24 per day, the figure was over 12,000 or 30 per day in 2013.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/31/president-obama-gun-control-push


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 4, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> You're not telling us in Oz anything that we don't already know. We were engaged in WWI from 1915 to the end, and WWII from 1939 to 1945. Our soldiers were in the thick of it in Africa, Turkey, France, Belgium, the Pacific including PNG and Burma. Since then they have served in Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and other conflicts. We missed the Falklands war, but not much else. We know all about shell shock, war fatigue, agent orange and PTSD but all of that is a side issue. None of ours have become mass murderers with automatic weapons.
> 
> I don't know why our two countries have such different outcomes in terms of gun deaths. Isn't it worth searching for an answer to that question? For your sake, not ours.



This is exactly the point that I was trying to make, Warri. Our soldiers have been all those places as well, and come home with PTSD and all the rest, all these many years (just like your soldiers), and they didn't go out and become mass murderers before, either.  This is a recent thing that is happening here in America.

The government seems to only have one answer, and that is to enforce gun control on everyone. If there weren't so many illegal gun owners here, doing that might have helped; but now, that would only make the victims even more helpless when something like this happens. If more people had been armed on the post at Ft. Hood, the shooter would have either not tried to go on the rampage, or been shot immediately, before he was able to kill people. 

Personally, I do believe that a good many of these are what is called "false-flag events", and there is a whole hidden agenda that is going on under the disguise of being a random attack. If you care to read some of the information about these events, you will see that there is actually a lot of evidence showing that what is presented in the news is not what actually happened.
If you are open to looking at this, I will start a topic in SC about it. If not, I won't.


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## Judi.D (Apr 4, 2014)

How many of you have actually been shot at? Well I have by my neighbor who is a retired Marine. Early one morning I was running down the street like I did every morning by his house, and in a drunken stupor he doesn't recognize me and decides I am doing something illegal and gets his gun and fires over my head . Yes he fired over my head, but he was also drunk. I am not the only one that this has happened to. Though he has been reported he simply gets a slap on the wrist. No one wants to violate his 2nd amendment rights. He suffers from acute alcoholism and has no business IMO to own a gun. He has lost his license to drive a car for DUIs, yet he is allowed to own a loaded gun??

I think that those of us who live in this country have to realize this is a serious problem which is very complicated. However, we require people to get a  license to drive a car, and we require the car to be registered and licensed. People are required to update their license on a regular basis. When statistics came out on the number of accidents caused by people under the age of 18 many states enacted laws to help correct this problem, with restrictions on drivers under the age of 18. How can we do any less with guns. I for one want to know that my so called law abiding neighbors with a gun have: registered it, proven they know how to handle one, are truly law abiding, and keeps it in good operating condition. If we do it for cars in this country we can and should do it for guns. No it will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but it is a first step. We have to reach for a balance, will we achieve it of course not, but neither will we achieve it by doing nothing.  If it saves one life it is worth it. IMHO it is plain common sense.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 4, 2014)

Judi, it sounds like your neighbor should not be allowed to legally own a weapon. If he has had DUI convictions, that is a felony. Anyone who has been convicted of a felony loses their right to own a gun legally, and also their right to vote; according to law. 
I think that background checks are mandatory for a person to buy a gun; so that should be stopping people from buying weapons; but since there are still private sales, it is pretty easy for anyone to find an illegal weapon.  So, even if they took whatever weapons he has, it would not be hard for him to find more and own them illegally.

I believe that we need to focus on the illegal weapons sold, and not the legal ones. If  we can stop the illegal gun trafficking, we will also stop at least some of the gun-involved deaths.


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## Jackie22 (Apr 4, 2014)

Judi.D said:


> How many of you have actually been shot at? Well I have by my neighbor who is a retired Marine. Early one morning I was running down the street like I did every morning by his house, and in a drunken stupor he doesn't recognize me and decides I am doing something illegal and gets his gun and fires over my head . Yes he fired over my head, but he was also drunk. I am not the only one that this has happened to. Though he has been reported he simply gets a slap on the wrist. No one wants to violate his 2nd amendment rights. He suffers from acute alcoholism and has no business IMO to own a gun. He has lost his license to drive a car for DUIs, yet he is allowed to own a loaded gun??
> 
> I think that those of us who live in this country have to realize this is a serious problem which is very complicated. However, we require people to get a  license to drive a car, and we require the car to be registered and licensed. People are required to update their license on a regular basis. When statistics came out on the number of accidents caused by people under the age of 18 many states enacted laws to help correct this problem, with restrictions on drivers under the age of 18. How can we do any less with guns. I for one want to know that my so called law abiding neighbors with a gun have: registered it, proven they know how to handle one, are truly law abiding, and keeps it in good operating condition. If we do it for cars in this country we can and should do it for guns. No it will not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but it is a first step. We have to reach for a balance, will we achieve it of course not, but neither will we achieve it by doing nothing.  If it saves one life it is worth it. IMHO it is plain common sense.



I feel the same, Judi, most on here know my thoughts on gun control, but as long as people put 'their rights' above human lives these tragedies will continue.

I also think that any country should learn from the successes, be it gun control or whatever, of other countries, its not a matter of being less patriotic, as Judi said...it
is just common sense. I think our country is just about evenly divided on the gun control subject, its the same on most issues we're facing...we are divided right down the middle of the two parties.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2014)

If you've been shot at, and didn't file a police report you are part of the problem and not the solution'

No deaths in the US have occurred with automatic weapons, they are semi-automatic-- opinion, untempered by fact is ignorance

Giving up your rights for a belief does not allow or empower anyone to take away mine. It only takes away YOUR right to vote on the issue. 

If the mentally ill who shot those people, while on those drugs, were not on those drugs, think of how many people they may have killed

Drugs don't kill people, people kill people.      


internetting with many shooters from Australia does not paint the same picture, as yours Dame.


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## Warrigal (Apr 4, 2014)

Define shooter, rt3. 

If they are also bikies then they probably have a vested interest because they are currently the main conduit for illegal firearms.

If they are sporting shooters, I don't see what they have to complain about. They can own guns legally provided they don't fall into any of the categories that would disqualify them for registration.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 4, 2014)

reon't you have enough to deal with in your own country?  I don't get why you are so busy trying to fix ours??  I think if everyone would take care of their own backyard first, then branch out and try to help others.  I think the same for America.  We need to work on our own issues before we go out trying to fix others.

EXCELLENT!!!! As a long time American citizen I couldnt agree with you more.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2014)

what you don't see in their complaints, is probably something you will have to take up with them. I asked them about the bikies and they said it was pretty much like it was in the US, the people who have taken the non-defense route are the targets, and those that can defend themselves, by whatever means are not bothered. Mostly the writers (shooters) I talk there all say the same thing "Don't let what happened in Australia happen in the USA" and that's what I'm going with. I asked them if they had Yahoots, in a joking manner, defined by people who go on destructive rampages, such have been described in this forum in other posts, and the reply was the same as here, they don't do it in the areas-- if the citizens are armed. Remember that when you pass gun control laws, you make any one having a gun an outlaw, regardless of how unstanding that citizen maybe in other areas. This was seen when the Soviet Union was formed. Nothing was said about all the people who had AK 47's stashed away in their attics. 
We must remember that "Rights" are what create humanities, civilizations, and countries. "Their rights" are guaranteed by the Constitution and opposition to them is not the same is not liking the fact that a stop sign isn't on your favorite corner. 

On an overview, the Aussie thing seems really hypocritical to me. Two of the most widely used gunpowders for reloading are Varget, Clays, (we are talkin ship loads) which are imported to the US and made in Aussieland.  Here you have a country willing to make money of the gun trade but are two faced with such Draconian gun laws. But then if I used that type of logic, I would be of the same crowd that cannot understand that guns don't kill, people kill people

There won't really be much of a division, because the people who want gun control want the government machine to do, using the supposed mass vote as their authorization, they really don't have what it takes to actually do it. The framers of the Constitution knew this and is why the amendments were  added.


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## Warrigal (Apr 4, 2014)

It's 2.40 am over here so please forgive me for not answering you in depth but this sentence leapt off the page at me



> I asked them if they had Yahoots, in a joking manner, defined by people who go on destructive rampages, such have been described in this forum in other posts, and the reply was the same as here, they don't do it in the areas-- if the citizens are armed



This makes no sense to me. The only destructive rampages I can think of are the intermittent drive by shootings that go on in Sydney and always the "victims" refuse to co-operate with the police but are "known to the police". It's gang warfare and both sides are usually armed. They don't shoot other civilians except by accident.

We haven't had a gun massacre since 1996 when we had the worst one day lethal rampage in our history. After that the nation was in the mood for national action. It took a conservative leader, John Howard, to bring about the change.

And this sentence



> Remember that when you pass gun control laws, you make any one having a gun an outlaw, regardless of how upstanding that citizen maybe in other areas



Rubbish. You left out one important word.



> Remember that when you pass gun control laws, you make any one having *an illegal *gun an outlaw, regardless of how upstanding that citizen maybe in other areas



How many times do I need to say that guns are not banned over here but you can't have open slather. We have rules.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2014)

only drive bys, wish it were that simple here, on a per capita basis your country has had more shootings

guns of themselves cannot be illegal, they are inanimate, its the possession or non possession that is the control, currently 50,000 gun owners in the US in Conn. have not registered their ARs making them outlaws. ,,  over 500,000 ar magazines that were supposed to be registered in Colo. are not on the book, making these other wise citizens. outlaws. 

I know exactly what kind of gun control Australia has, I internet with the people who have and use them there. It seems you are the confused one.


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## Fern (Apr 4, 2014)

Back to origin of the thread, 'he' was in Iraq for 4 months & did not see service, as in fighting.Obviously something was very wrong in his mind, failing that, life can be cheap to some.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 4, 2014)

Like so many other times when we have one of these horrendous tragedies, it appears that the government was also  staging a drill around the same time and place. 
Actors were recruited via Craigslist, and supposed to be interviewed in late March for the training exercise of a mass casualty event at Ft. Hood.

Here is what the advertisement said :
Role Players for Military mock simulated disaster (Ft Hood)


Government contractor is seeking individuals to act as role players to participate in a ” mass casualty exercise ” on the FT Hood military installation.


Role players will participate in an exercise that will replicate civilians in the area that have been injured during a disaster that is used in the scenario. Role players will be medically treated during this exercise at numerous locations on Ft Hood.


The objective of this exercise is to train and assess medical units with regards to civilians that have been injured during a disaster.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 4, 2014)

Well that is totally weird  You mean this guy might have known about that and took the opportunity to "blend in" or something?  Thanks for sharing the HFL.  Our cable, guy has just arrived so he'll have us off and online, so catch up with you later denise


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## Warrigal (Apr 4, 2014)

HappyFlowerLady, is this the drill you are referring to?

Is Camp Lejeune in the same area as Fort Hood?

*Camp Lejeune Conducts Shooter Drill Day After Ft. Hood Shooting *Updated: Thu 6:36 PM, Apr 03, 2014
















The day after a soldier killed three people and wounded 16 others at Fort Hood, Camp Lejeune is testing their own base response.
The Marine Corps base conducted an active shooter drill during a staged change of command ceremony at Hospital Point.  The drill was part of a three day exercise to evaluate urgent response in a crisis.

Marines say the tragedy at Fort Hood only re-enforces the need for such drills at Lejeune. Thursday's event was scheduled months ago.

"Having this active shooter exercise was entirely coincidental, but it underscores the seriousness that we take this training," said Nat Fahy, Public Affairs Director at Camp Lejeune. "It has put into very stark reality why we need this training, why we need to continually refine and perfect our emergency response procedures."

The exercises are done yearly, and also include hostage negotiation scenarios that are designed to push first responders, law enforcement and base officials to the limit.


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## Jackie22 (Apr 5, 2014)

Killeen Daily Hearld
May 6, 2013

Emergency responders from Fort Hood partnered with police, firefighters and emergency medical services from neighboring cities Wednesday for a large-scale Force Protection Exercise.

The annual exercise, which took place over a two- day period, tasked the participating entities with responding to a large-scale simulated emergency. This year’s exercise included participation by police, firefighters and EMS workers from Fort Hood, Killeen, Harker Heights, Copperas Cove and Temple.
“These exercises are very important,” said Billy Rhoads, Fort Hood’s fire chief. “They allow us to prepare to respond to real-world incidents.”
http://kdhnews.com/news/fort-hood-a...cle_4ba45f96-bd82-11e2-bdf2-001a4bcf6878.html


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

regrettably these types of solutions end up in the same type of swat team type thinking that infests the civilian police tactics. without solving the mental illness part, first responders will always be late.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 5, 2014)

Take a look at where these 2 Army shooters brought their killing guns,the name says it all.


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

you make the assumption everybody sees something in an ordinary picture, please point out what upsets you, don't assume we can read your mind. Oh wait I get the mail box is a big shotgun shell -- how clever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

Oh I get it the guns took on hands, and legs and the shooters just drove the guns to the fort so the guns so the could do their stuff


Those evil guns.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

Oh I get the store doesn't have a handicapped parking stall, silly me.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 5, 2014)

Fern said:


> Back to origin of the thread, 'he' was in Iraq for 4 months & did not see service, as in fighting.Obviously something was very wrong in his mind, failing that, life can be cheap to some.


Even though he was only in Iraq for the 4 month tour; this soldier had been in the military for almost 14 years, and had served in overseas places like Sinai; so it was entirely possible that he had been in some very stressful situations causing the PTSD.
According to reports, there was nothing in his past to indicate this type of behavior, and his record from both the National Guard, and the Army, showed an excellent soldier.
If he did have the head injury that is reported, as well as being recently prescribed strong mind-altering drugs; I think this could have caused him to have just snapped, as it seems to be what happened in this case.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/lopez-remembered-as-quiet-boy-from-good-family/nfRPj/


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## That Guy (Apr 5, 2014)

Judi.D said:


> How many of you have actually been shot at?



Yes and I shot back.  Your neighbor is one big reason why I don't own a gun.  I will use it.  Perhaps, not in a drunken stupor but certainly when another means would be better applied.  Once that bullet flies there's no taking it back and in peacetime that's a tragedy waiting to happen.


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## That Guy (Apr 5, 2014)

Fern said:


> Back to origin of the thread, 'he' was in Iraq for 4 months & did not see service, as in fighting.Obviously something was very wrong in his mind, failing that, life can be cheap to some.



Two seconds in the war zone can be enough to affect anyone drastically.  It does seem now with more info coming that something escalated out of control with some other soldiers.  I wouldn't discount the stress of Iraq but think there were probably other things going on that drove him to explode.


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## That Guy (Apr 5, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Even though he was only in Iraq for the 4 month tour; this soldier had been in the military for almost 14 years, and had served in overseas places like Sinai; so it was entirely possible that he had been in some very stressful situations causing the PTSD.
> According to reports, there was nothing in his past to indicate this type of behavior, and his record from both the National Guard, and the Army, showed an excellent soldier.
> If he did have the head injury that is reported, as well as being recently prescribed strong mind-altering drugs; I think this could have caused him to have just snapped, as it seems to be what happened in this case.



That's right!  I'd forgotten about the meds he was on.  All that crap has mouseprint warning about dangerous side effects.  Supposed to "help" but often just make things worse.  During Vietnam, I said, "I can't do this anymore," so they gave me little yellow pills that made me not care about a damned thing.  Great . . . just great.


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

So --- that Guy whats your point?


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

so far we have established that its not a perfect world

gun laws do not affect crime rate, only enforcement of existing laws will effect that

if somewhat gets hit with a truck and dies, does it matter what brand it is?


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## That Guy (Apr 5, 2014)

Please allow me to respond to that in simple terms you may understand.  Basically, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2014)

good -- now we are getting some where


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## Davey Jones (Apr 5, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Two seconds in the war zone can be enough to affect anyone drastically. It does seem now with more info coming that something escalated out of control with some other soldiers. I wouldn't discount the stress of Iraq but think there were probably other things going on that drove him to explode.




From what I understand this guy was never in the war zone.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 5, 2014)

That Guy said:


> That's right! I'd forgotten about the meds he was on. All that crap has mouseprint warning about dangerous side effects. Supposed to "help" but often just make things worse. During Vietnam, I said, "I can't do this anymore," so they gave me little yellow pills that made me not care about a damned thing. Great . . . just great.



Good point That Guy, there's no denying the dangerous side-effects of the anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs that they pass out like M&Ms now.

It used to be that if someone was depressed, they felt sad, worst case scenario they took their own life with suicide. Now...they're put on this prescription mind-altering medication that hasn't even been fully studied and evaluated. They don't have time for safety studies, they want it on the market for profits. Doctors are sometimes given perks to push the scripts on these things.

So, instead of feeling sad and maybe taking your life, now the actual side effects of prescription anti-depressants is suicidal and homicidal thoughts and actions....yeah, much much better now. 

I heard a story of an animal loving man who owned a few animals on a small farm. He was put on one of these psychiatric drugs, and had real thoughts of torturing his farm animals and killing them for no reason. Luckily he didn't act on his thoughts, discontinued the meds, and shared his experience for others to learn from.

http://www.breggin.com/


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## Jillaroo (Apr 5, 2014)

_SB i don't agree with that statement, i have been on anti depressants for a few years and i don't have suicidal or homicidal, i feel that is just a cop out to cover up for what the person really is, i also know of a lot of people who take them as well with no effect, i feel people need to take responsibilty for their actions and stop using tablets as the scape goat_


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## Ina (Apr 5, 2014)

I don't know about other places, but in the last few years, I keep seeing commercials that praise a certain drug, and at the tail end they warn of serious side effects. After a while we see other commercials that tell you if you have taking so and so drugs call so and so to help you sue for damages. That seems to have become the pharmaceuticals study and evaluation methods now. They make so much money off the promotional drug that they can well afford a few suits, especially since they have saved the cost of the research.  :dejection:


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## Ina (Apr 5, 2014)

Jilliroo, I too have been on anti-depressants most of my life. They do help me, but I guess I use to let other's opinions shame me into quitting. It is OK for awhile, and then I end up getting sick. The doctor will address the illness, but they always end up giving me a prescription for another anti-depressant. They always help me. I have learned to ignore those that do want to understand. :triumphant:


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 5, 2014)

Jillaroo said:


> _SB i don't agree with that statement, i have been on anti depressants for a few years and i don't have suicidal or homicidal, i feel that is just a cop out to cover up for what the person really is, i also know of a lot of people who take them as well with no effect, i feel people need to take responsibilty for their actions and stop using tablets as the scape goat_


I agree that not everyone who is on a prescription drug is going to go off and start shooting people. However, in this particular case; this soldier had been in the military for almost 15 years, and with an excellent record, and no evidence of mental instability, even though he had been serving overseas during part of that time, probably had had the PTSD at least since Iraq in 2011, and there was NO issues at all until they recently put him on the mind-altering medication.
Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that this was part of his inability to think rationally when things suddenly started falling apart for him. 
As Ina was pointing out, some people do fine with a certain drug; and others end up suing the drug company for serious side-effects from the same drug.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 5, 2014)

Jilly, I agree that people should be responsible for their actions, and while anti-depressants don't effect everyone in the same way, some people can be drawn to certain negative behaviors.  I forgot to add the link to my post, worth a looksee...http://www.breggin.com/ 

Ina, I worked with a guy who was on anti-depressants for many years, he served in Vietnam, but also was sexually abused as a young child.  He confided in me about how he felt about his medical treatment. 

 His mood swings on a daily basis were out of control, he admitted that although the drugs made him feel very carefree at times, he was frustrated because they weren't doing anything for his depression.  His doses were constantly being increased, until they just bounced him from drug to drug, hoping for something that would work well.

My heart went out to him, because he was so miserable and the precriptions like Prozac, Wellbutrin, etc. were of no help to him, regardless of the ever-changing dosages.


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## Ina (Apr 5, 2014)

Yes Sea, I have seen this too. I sometimes wonder if the medical profession doesn't goes thru fads. Sometimes it's give everyone this drug, or that drug, it's the cure all answer for the times. Money must be made. NOT!!!


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 5, 2014)

I think the problem is these drugs don't really 'cure' anything, just mask the inner thoughts and feelings that a person is having.  Sometimes, I guess, this can be beneficial to a degree, but it's like holding in anger without a safe release, it will build up inside and burst suddenly without warning or control.


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## Ina (Apr 5, 2014)

Sea, for me its the opposite. Michael says that when I drop the anti-depressants it's like I take on the guilt of the world. When I do take them I don't get high or down. For me it is like taking aspirin, the pain eases and even stops most of the time. Of course they don't fix everything, like loosing someone, or loneliness. When the doctor asked me how I felt, and I said I couldn't tell I was taking anything, she said that was a good thing, we had the right drug and dosage. It work to the good for me, but yes I too think that doctors are giving them out recklessly.


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## Jillaroo (Apr 5, 2014)

_*I feel the returned soldiers need counselling as they have been to hell and back,no human being should have to see what they have seen and had to do, it affects them badly, counselling does help to a certain degree to allow them to settle into family life again, but it's up to the family to understand what is happening with their loved one and show some patience*_


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 5, 2014)

Sometimes, it needs more than patience, or even counseling, or medication can do. What the war does can be so deeply in the person that it can't be fixed, in some cases.

I was married to a Viet Nam vet, and he had flashbacks where he totally blacked out, and for that time, he would think that he was back in the war. 
He had terrible nightmares that were real to him.
One night, he was talking in vietnamese in his nightmare, and thought I was the enemy.  He grabbed me by the hair, and pulled my head back, exposing my neck, hissing that he was going to kill me.  If he had had a knife under his pillow, he would have cut my throat and not known it until he woke up the next morning.
Thankfully, he didn't have a knife, and I was able to talk to him, reassuring him that he was in bed,  I was his wife, everything was safe. Slowly, I inched towards the light at the side of the bed, and explained that i was going to turn on the light so that he could see he was home , safe in bed. 
Even after I turned on the light, it took him almost a half hour to come fully aware of where he was. 
Often, he would have no memory of these blackout spells. None of the medications, or the counseling seemed to help him with it. 
It is terrible that so many of our brave soldiers have to live with this kind of thing, that can cause them to go over the edge like this one at Ft. Hood did.


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## That Guy (Apr 5, 2014)

Yes, HFL, that is exactly what happens to many, many people after such horrible experiences.  I had recurring nightmares and seeing the first boat people scared me as I thought I was hallucinating.  I think a lot of the adjusting back to the world, although one never really comes back, depends on the individual and their specific mindset before, during and after.  Recently, at work, passed a pile of large brown bags that are filled with priority documents to be shredded and for a split second it looked like a pile of bodies.  All these years and it never goes away.


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## maxHR (Apr 5, 2014)

6% of americans have a serious mental illness of one form or another, that's over 5 million. Do we round them all up and put them into mental hospitals 24/7?
the vast majority of these never kill anybody. Their medical records turned over to some government agency?  
    Australia had a freely available rat poison containing thallium, back in the '50's. its colourless, odourless and deadly. 100 people were murdered with it in one year.
It was banned. Some things are just too damn dangerous to be let loose willy nilly in the community.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 5, 2014)

Then there are drugs like this that are given to our troops, and affect them years later...



> In late July, 2013, the FDA issued a powerful "black box" safety warning for a drug which has been taken by hundreds of thousands of troops to prevent malaria. The drug is called mefloquine, and it was previously sold in the U.S. by F. Hoffman-La Roche under the trade name Lariam. Since being developed by the U.S. military over four decades ago, mefloquine has been widely used by troops on deployments in Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> We now recognize, decades too late, that mefloquine is neurotoxic and can cause lasting injury to the brainstem and emotional centers in the limbic system. As a result of its toxic effects, the drug is quickly becoming the "Agent Orange" of this generation, linked to a growing list of lasting neurological and psychiatric problems including suicide.
> 
> ...


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## drifter (Apr 5, 2014)

Guns don't kill people but America has a gun problem. With guns in churches, in colleges, in schools, anywhere people want to take them, then we have a problem. It seems to me we have lost our senses.


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## Jackie22 (Apr 6, 2014)

drifter said:


> Guns don't kill people but America has a gun problem. With guns in churches, in colleges, in schools, anywhere people want to take them, then we have a problem. It seems to me we have lost our senses.



Agreed, it is the easy accessibility of guns.


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## rkunsaw (Apr 6, 2014)

Jackie22 said:


> Agreed, it is the easy accessibility of guns.



I have to disagree with both of you. Guns have always been easily accessible in the United States. Much more so in the past. There was a time when you could buy a gun by mail order or in just about any store, no age limit or background check. And in those days we didn't mass shootings and such. 

We do have a serious problem with crime and especially these mass murders in this country, but making more laws will not solve the problem. In case you didn't notice, murder is already against the law.


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## Jackie22 (Apr 6, 2014)

In case you didn't notice, making laws against the easy accessibility of guns in other countries works.


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## Judi.D (Apr 6, 2014)

One of the reports I read said this soldier had seen a counselor the month before. Obviously in hindsight he should have been being monitored more often. However, money, time and adequate personnel to help them is not available. So the easiest thing to do is to prescribe medication. We have spent millions of dollars in this country to bail out companies in danger of bankruptcy, but continue to cut funding to help our soldiers returning with serious problems. This won't change until we rethink our priorities. It is a complex problem and requires complex solutions.


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

some people will kill their artificial flowers by not watering them. 

blaming inanimate objects puts them in the 6% ---  America has an immigration problem, a poverty problem, an education problem, etc.

crime is at its lowest rate in years sense the advent of concealed carry


the countries (and cities in the US) with the strongest gun laws have the highest crime rate,    Africa, Syria   please do some research.


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

just asking the people here who think that guns are easy to get.   Have you ever filled out a form 4733 and bought a gun?  If not, then how can you even possibly state an informed opinion. If you have filled one out then you would know that the Fed. government covers almost every angle so the wrong people (what ever that is) dont purchase a firearm. Did you know Gabby's husband, the anit gun senator lady from Arizona who got shot, was denied a gun purchase? He was trying to buy it for the publicity to show how easy guns were to get. He has a mental problem and was denied the purchase. Did you know Sen. Chen ANTI gun California Democrat has been indicted by the FBI for gun trafficking to the mafia. 
Do you know what the statistics are of people who have been arrested for gun violations but NOT PROSECUTED.  Did you know the anit gun radio host Malloy actually threatened an NRA member with his life and told him he would kill him? Did you know that over 900 Sheriffs in the US have signed a petition and sent to OBAMA stating they will not enforce any laws against the Constitution, will not enforce the NY SAFE act, and will not enforce the Colorado magazine ban. Did you know that Missouri, Idaho, Alaska, Wyoming, Utah, Montana, passed state laws that will arrest any Federal officer trying to enforce these bans. Did you know the Federal(Obama)  government and Bloomberg are trying to get legislation thru state legislation that allow Federal officers the same authority as County Sheriffs, thus negating the need for the Feds. to go through the local authorities thus removing any say you and I have at what goes on at the local levels?


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

Huffington Post=CNN (chicken noodle news)

the people that have malaria and have been helped by mefloquine outnumber the side effects by 10000 to 1


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## Denise1952 (Apr 6, 2014)

rt3 said:


> some people will kill their artificial flowers by not watering them.
> 
> blaming inanimate objects puts them in the 6% ---  America has an immigration problem, a poverty problem, an education problem, etc.
> 
> ...



I don't know what stats to believe anymore, but one thing that made sense to me that I read, while attending a class here, was that when a criminal has to wonder whether or not a prospective victim is armed, they are less likely to rob/attack.  So if guns are illegal for the average "Joe/Jane" to own, then to me, they are like sitting ducks.  I believe anyone wanting to own a gun needs to have something showing they have a clean background, non-criminal record, and also maybe a letter from their "shrink" (I know not everyone has a "shrink").  Also, lessons in how to use it, a class, like CPR.

I also heard, and sure I'll get some arguments, but one of the first things Hitler did was the Nazi Firearm Law, which disarmed the German Jewish folk.  And, even I know the first thing someone does that wants to have control over another person, is to disarm them.  

I also read something this a.m. that made me have a bit of question on these stats we read on crime.  What type of crimes are in the stats?  denise


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## Denise1952 (Apr 6, 2014)

this thread refers a lot to America having problems, but I think if we take an honest look around, the biggest problem is a "world" problem, and that is a lack of humanity.  But by the same token, we have a lot of humanity as well  I believed when I was growing up, that good always overcame evil.  It doesn't seem like it does, in the small picture, but maybe in the "big" picture it does, I hope.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 6, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> Guns have always been easily accessible in the United States. Much more so in the past. There was a time when you could buy a gun by mail order or in just about any store, no age limit or background check. .


 
One problem with that statement,*that was then this is now.
*Major changes need to be upgraded when purchasing any weapons with serial numbers.
Sure there are regulations in place but those have no enforcement on the life of a handgun or any weapon once it leave the original purchaser.*
*You can trace a vehicle back to its original owner until that vehicle ends up in a scrap yard years later and crushed flat.

Nowaday to get people to turn in their old,used weapons we have to give them a $10 off Walmart coupon.


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## drifter (Apr 6, 2014)

All this talk of guns reminds me of sportsmen, the real reason for guns.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 6, 2014)

It was inevitable that weapons/guns would be turned on our fellow man.  denise


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## drifter (Apr 6, 2014)

Yeah, in our early days we used to club each other.


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## Denise1952 (Apr 6, 2014)

drifter said:


> Yeah, in our early days we used to club each other.



Take away the guns and I'm betting we'll arm ourselves with clubs again, or whatever.  I still have a great, cast-iron skillet.  Hey batter, batter, swing!!


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

yes lets address sportsmen, I'm glad you brought that up.

Out of all the guns sold and used in the US 95% are used in target shooting, and out of the trillion or so rounds fired less than 3 % of that is used for hunting.
Lets go further, without the sportsmen dollars the deer, elk, and game would be decimated. Millions and millions of dollars are donated by those sportsmen to protect, buy and preserve wetlands that would ordinarily be destroyed for the pitiful little arm chair quarter backs that denigrate hunting.  Thousands of man hours are donated by these same sportsmen to clean up oil spills caused by the need for gas to get to Starbucks. Many thousands more donated hours to gun safety programs for hunting, and self defense. Today the very game herds so anthropomorphized is this tripe is not only an inaccurate it begs the question,---What have you done to help nature?


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

people would chose swords, and then we could have sword control.


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

frying pan control is funnier though


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

how would you like your head?  sunny side up?


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## drifter (Apr 6, 2014)

All these statistics I have heard before and I suspect they have been run through the ARA mill to make them sound feasible, like the less crime in areas where anyone who can tie his own shoes can carry a gun.l


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

Getting back to the shooter at fort Hood.  Another thing that the military personal should be thanked for that is given very little thought. The malaria medicine is a good example. We should thank those people for taking the drug, so they wouldn't bring malaria back to the US with them. This also applies to antibiotics in the case of STDs


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

yes drifter , but I think you mean NRA, and I am an NRA plant ,   WATCH out I'm standing behind you!!!!!!!  So what have you done for Nature and preservation Mr. Drifter?


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## Davey Jones (Apr 6, 2014)

rt3 said:


> yes drifter , but I think you mean NRA, and I am an NRA plant ,   WATCH out I'm standing behind you!!!!!!!  So what have you done for Nature and preservation Mr. Drifter?



Careful how you answer,Drifter.
They are always right no ands or buts about it.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 6, 2014)

More information about the use of prescription anti-psychotics/anti-depressant in the military, and regarding the Fort Hood shooting...http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/for...-long-overdue/


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

Davey -- glad to see you made it. Maybe you can explain. Drifter accepts the statistics because he cant refute them, and says they are rigged. Of course if they were all over the internet they would have been refuted many times. So what is it that Drifter isn't getting?


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2014)

The military reports that I want to read are the ones, involve the use of psychotic tropic drugs, and whats that one that causes (anthrax?) the cow disease, and the sheep stuff at Dugway proving grounds during the 70s.


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## drifter (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes, thank you, I did mean NRA, and I must confesss, I get many of these acronmies mixed up, when I'm coming off the top of my head. Let's see, what was the question .. oh, yes, What have I done, oh, yes, So what have you done for Nature and preservation Mr. Drifter??  Well, not much to tell the truth. I'm not sur3e what counts toward answering your question. I have owned weapons since I was twelve years old, when my dad gave me an old Stevens single shot. My next gun was a marlin 39A, a lever action 22. Before entering military service I bought a 30/30 carbine. Aftewards, I bought several rifles, three shotguns and a couple of revolvers over a short period of time. From 1959 until 1995 I bout a hunting license and for several years, a Colorado licence so I could hunt with a relative in Colorado Springs. I was a long time suscriber to Texas Parks and Wildlife and to the National Wildlife Federation Magazine. Looking at this bit I have written here, I don't guess I have a leg to stand on. I guess I haven't done anything for nature or the environment or done any good anywhere, unless you count that cap I bought from the park store down in the Big Bend National Park or that one I got in the Pecos Wildnerness Area that was supposed to benefit wildlife. So Arkansas, I guess I'd have to look you in the eye, if I could, and say, "Actually, nothing, not much at the best. I fear I am found wanting.


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## Warrigal (Apr 6, 2014)

I've been reading this discussion from the sidelines with much interest and have kept silent because the arguments have been largely confined to internal American issues. This morning I heard a radio report about the army shooter Ivan Lopez and although I can't yet produce a transcript, an article republished from the Washington Post covers much the same territory.

Talking about dealing with mental health issues in the military :



> "The military is reliant on self, focused on the other, mission first, stop whining, suck it up," Van Dahlen said. ''It's only in the last 10 years that the military, to its credit, started to think about, OK, we had better focus on taking care of our mental-health needs or we are going to be in trouble."
> 
> Growing alarm about suicides and violence within the military has prompted unprecedented efforts to beef up systems to help soldiers cope with multiple deployments and adjust to life after war.  The Army has launched the largest-ever study of mental-health risk and resilience among military personnel, and set up a $US65 million facility dedicated to treating traumatic brain injury, post-traumatic stress disorder and other psychological problems.
> 
> ...


The radio report indicated that the current problem is only the tip of the iceberg and that there will be many, many more cases of PTSD and suicides of returning servicemen and women very soon. Given that gun control is clearly not an option on the table, how willing are the American people to fund the vets for the treatment that they need ? Will they be prepared to vote against easing the tax liabilities of the very rich and big businesses and divert those funds to caring for the vets? Will they be willing to pay a little more themselves to provide good mental health services for everyone, not just the vets ?


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## drifter (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't have any answers. It's been a long time since I served in the military. Back then I thought the military did a very good job doing what they did with what they had to do with. I expect the same is true now. These soldiers pay a bigger price than any who have gone before, certainly before Viet Nam. Multiple deployments to combat zones. The medical objectives were first and foremost to get the soldiers well and fit to return to their units. Back in the day, mental problems were a career ending condition. You just didn't mention them. Today with an enemy using these UEDs that could blow a vehicle, even an armored vehicle, to bits with everything in it, even deployments behind lines meant extreme danger. The moto gets to be, Deploy them till they're dead. Add to this, leaving a family back stateside with not enough money to live on, ongoing problems a soldier can't help with, and pressure can build. What's the answer I don't know but these are some things the Army and the Congress can look at. Sometime a soldier goes to sickbay and can't get an answer immediately or any help. Some of it may just be the system, and some because the  system is stuck in it's ways. Then there are some things we'll never be able to stop. Much of the time the Congress, the government merely gives lip service.


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## Warrigal (Apr 6, 2014)

> I don't have any answers.


:applause2: That's what I like about you Drifter.
It's people who know all the answers without knowing what the question is that worry me.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't have any answers. 

Awesome post,I doubt very much anyone can top that one.


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## That Guy (Apr 6, 2014)

nwlady said:


> Take away the guns and I'm betting we'll arm ourselves with clubs again, or whatever.  I still have a great, cast-iron skillet.  Hey batter, batter, swing!!



Once, in my veterans group, the question was asked, "What weapon are you?"  The best answer:  a stick.


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## rt3 (Apr 7, 2014)

sounds like you were in back when the Draft was still going Drifter, I think now its a volunteer army.


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## Davey Jones (Apr 7, 2014)

Volunteer or draft,you're STILL going to get shot at. Only different today is the volunteers today get more benefits then the draftees ever got and they suffered more in battle then todays soldiers.


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## drifter (Apr 7, 2014)

Yes there was a draft. My next door neighbor was drafted and killed early. I still remember the shock I felt on learning of his death after only a few months. I volunteered hoping to get a better deal.


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