# Just Decided to Become Pig Free



## fureverywhere (May 14, 2016)

As I've said before I'd be practically vegan...guess that would be "Reformed" vegan?...if I did the cooking. But I don't and the rest of the family expect meat at least a few times a week. But I was reading a magazine about pets and people. There's a woman in Brooklyn I believe who is fighting for her right to keep her service pig.

Now I mean it gets bizarre sometimes what people label service animals. The same story has a woman and her kangaroo and a guy with his boa. Now I think that might be pushing the envelope there. But I've read quite a bit about pigs and feel that's a different situation.

There  are any number of sources that report that pigs are almost the equal of canines in intelligence and personality. One painful passage described a group of pigs waiting on the slaughter house floor. Some of them were walking up to the humans and seeking attention just like a dog or cat.

I also met a pig when I worked at a day care center long ago. This one was straight from a farm so she didn't smell so fresh. But with a bath she would have been a sweet pet, very friendly. I've never been big on the taste of pork anyway so now I've decided to give it up for good. I'm not ready to adopt a pig, but it's the least I can do.


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## Laurie (May 14, 2016)

"There are any number of sources that report that pigs are almost the equal of canines in intelligence"

What absolute rubbish.  There isn't a dog yet born that has one tenth the intelligence of even the stupidest Pig!

I'm  with Churchill on pigs - "A cat will treat you as some sort  inferior being, a dog will fawn all over you but a pig will walk  up and look you straight  in the eye as an equal"!


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## Sliverfox (May 14, 2016)

Not a fan of pigs,, sorry  to any pig owners.

Watched  pig   follow a cat that walked into its pen, chomp , chomp on the  cat's tail!
Didn't stay to see the end of cat.


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## Shalimar (May 14, 2016)

Geeze fur, now I will be upset about pigs for the rest of the day. Reeeely didnt need to hear that!


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## Cookie (May 14, 2016)

Sorry you are upset to know pigs are people too.  Poor you! But think how the pigs feel.  Empathy can and should be extended to our fellow creatures as well as our poor planet that is getting ravaged by greenhouse gasses from animal poo and processing plants. You do need to hear it, believe me. 

Oink oink oink!  Pig for have a nice day!


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## Guitarist (May 14, 2016)

I like pigs too.  

Unfortunately I also like ham, bacon, sausage, pork ...  Oh, well, none of that is good for me, whereas pigs are cute and fun, if only they didn't have such sharp hooves ....

Why didn't the cat just run away?


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## SifuPhil (May 14, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Sorry you are upset to know pigs are people too. Poor you! But think how the pigs feel. Empathy can and should be extended to our fellow creatures as well as our poor planet that is getting ravaged by greenhouse gasses from animal poo and processing plants. You do need to hear it, believe me.
> 
> Oink oink oink! Pig for have a nice day!



If you were referring to Shali's comment - she's QUITE aware of animals being the equals of humans, she treats them _all_ with massive respect and interacts with them on a level most humans could only dream of. 

She does NOT need to hear it because she already KNOWS it.


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## Don M. (May 14, 2016)

Little "piglets" are kind of cute, but a sensible person would never try to Pet an adult hog...you might lose your hand.  One of the biggest issues with pigs is Feral Hogs...pigs that have escaped their farm, and gone into the forests.  A Feral Hog is one of the most vicious and destructive animals roaming the forests of the Southeastern states...ask anyone who you know who lives in rural Texas.  We haven't had any of them in our area...yet...but they are migrating North from Arkansas.  Missouri rules on Feral Hogs are quite clear....if you see one, Shoot It!  

I like pigs...breakfast just isn't complete without a strip of bacon.


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## Buckeye (May 14, 2016)

Don M - Feral pigs are a big problem here on the Big Island.  They are very destructive, and tear up a lot of folks' gardens.  It is "open season" on them all the time.


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## Shalimar (May 14, 2016)

Thanks Philly.


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## tnthomas (May 14, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Churchill on pigs - "A cat will treat you as some sort  inferior being, a dog will fawn all over you but a pig will walk  up and look you straight  in the eye as an equal"!



I like that, should tattoo it on...somewhere.   Speaking of tattoos and pigs, the gratuitous tattoo'd pig image post:

*The illustrated pig




*


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## WhatInThe (May 14, 2016)

Anyone see the Chase Bank commercial where the couple is shown walking their mini pig into the bank?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFlfaXJW4Y


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## tnthomas (May 14, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> Anyone see the Chase Bank commercial where the couple is shown walking their mini pig into the bank?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFlfaXJW4Y




The piggie is soooooo cuuuuuute!


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## WhatInThe (May 14, 2016)

tnthomas said:


> The piggie is soooooo cuuuuuute!



Actually I found the music just as catching and fit perfectly with a strolling pig.


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## Cookie (May 14, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> If you were referring to Shali's comment - she's QUITE aware of animals being the equals of humans, she treats them _all_ with massive respect and interacts with them on a level most humans could only dream of.
> 
> She does NOT need to hear it because she already KNOWS it.



Oh, here it is, but not surprised.  QUITE aware, but maybe not very.  By massive respect do you mean genuflecting to the bacon before gobbling it down with one's french toast. Or does the massive respect stop with barnyard animals? Slaughterhouse horrors and greenhouse gases be damned, we must have our fried fat. Missing the point?


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## Debby (May 14, 2016)

You know, I became a vegan overnight.  Someone said something that I found 'challenging' and in looking for verification, I finally actually saw what happens to the critters and in an instant I was literally, a changed person.  Cleaned out the cupboards that week and haven't missed any of it yet.  And the things that happen every day, are so awful, that you mention 'bacon' or any other 'dish' and it brings an immediate image to mind that is horrific.  

In rating the hierarchy of suffering, I think pigs treatment is the worst with chickens/turkey's/ducks bringing up a close second while cattle's treatment isn't day in, day out misery unless you're a 'veal' calf or most dairy cows.  So I'm really pleased to hear fureverywhere, that you have decided to give the piggies a break.  Because they need all the help that they can get .

Years ago, when I first started reading about this topic, I came across a description of how pigs were transported from Alberta, Canada to Hawaii for those luaus.  In a nutshell, they were loaded into shipping box cars and then stacked on the decks of ships going across to the islands.  They could potentially be in there for a week with no food or water, and in the heat.  And it was a given that lots died.   My husband and I went to Hawaii once and this resort had a pig roasting in a pit and even though I wasn't a vegan at the time (not even a vegetarian), when they hauled that dreadful looking thing out of the pit, we both were totally turned off.  When I read how pigs used to get there (don't know if they still allow that level of cruelty) I remembered that luau and I was so glad that we'd passed on that meal.

(just looked it up and as recently as 2008, they still ship them that way to Hawaii)


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## Cookie (May 14, 2016)

What a horrible situation, Debby and thanks for your post. 

It really blows my mind how people can be so blase and heartless about the suffering of animals, rationalizing that 'they were bred for that purpose' or 'I just like it so much', as if that makes it OK.  

I'm also glad Fur, that you have chosen to give the pigs a break, an excellent way to lessen the insanity.


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## fureverywhere (May 14, 2016)

Exactly with that commercial. I'm not talking about feral swine with huge tusks. I mean the smaller domestic breeds. The one in the commercial...washed in a lavender dog shampoo, very easy to cuddle and hand feed. It might be I slightly see a similarity to Callie, of course I see it in manatees and hippos too.



















Maybe a decade ago we went to a church pork roast in small town PA. I didn't know any better so we got there and they were just ready to serve a family style feast. There in the middle of the cut meat and stuffing was a roasted and severed pig head...the eyes had crab apples or something in the sockets. This does not represent " MMM good eatin' to me". The ladies of the church were sympathetic to my discomfort and took the head back in the kitchen...muttering something about city folk.

I don't even want to understand the mind set that allows you to kill and cook an animal and then happily chow down on it's body with it's head on the table...I mean any creature even a fish. For the pork lovers, perhaps in China they have a dog roast in the same way? Would that make you uncomfortable? I would become strictly plant eater right there.


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## Cookie (May 14, 2016)

Wow!  That must have been quite a sight, maybe they thought it was a pretty centerpiece, to me it just seems gross. It was kind of them to remove it, at least. Re the dog roast in China, probably likely, human nature being what it is.

Very cute little piggies BTW.


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## SeaBreeze (May 14, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> As I've said before I'd be practically vegan...guess that would be "Reformed" vegan?...if I did the cooking. But I don't and the rest of the family expect meat at least a few times a week. But I was reading a magazine about pets and people. There's a woman in Brooklyn I believe who is fighting for her right to keep her service pig.
> 
> Now I mean it gets bizarre sometimes what people label service animals. The same story has a woman and her kangaroo and a guy with his boa. Now I think that might be pushing the envelope there. But I've read quite a bit about pigs and feel that's a different situation.
> 
> ...



Good for you Fur, if it feels good, do it!   I eat less meat overall than I did when I was younger just for health reasons.  I still very much enjoy rib-eye steaks, bacon, St. Louis ribs and chicken breasts. When I was in Hawaii I really like the Kalua Pig.  What you eat is a very personal decision to be sure.  I don't look down my nose at anyone for what they consume, not for me to pass moral judgement and none of my business.  

I am and always have been an animal lover and am against any abuse of animals domestic or wild.  If animals raised for food (which has been a practice for centuries) are treated humanely throughout their lives and at the time of their death, it is the best we can ask for and I have the utmost respect for ranchers and farmers who treat their animals well.

Personally, I don't think any animal like a pig should be anyone's pet.  I have met some Potbelly Pigs and felt nothing but sorry for them, they were meant to live a natural existence, not be on someone's leash and confined to their house or yard.

  I saw someone showing off their "mini" potbelly pig at the dog park years ago, and it was like a circus side show.  The dogs were going toward it and the owners were scolding them (or ignoring them).  The owner seemed to be delighted to be the center of attention, the poor little pig seemed to be very frightened.  Luckily I never saw it there again.

 People who abuse the "service" animal privileges really disgust me.  I recently saw a woman with a Teacup Yorkie in Costco with a vest on....please!   Those people who are blind, veterans with PTSD, and invalids confined to a wheelchair that need dogs for assistance are suffering because of those taking advantage of the service animal allowances.

  People are complaining because selfish owners who want to bring their dogs on the plane with them just for convenience, have them crapping in the aisles, whining, barking and acting aggressively to other travelers.  I'd love to take my dog (or cat) with me everywhere I go, but I'm not so selfish as to lie and cheat the system to do it.


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## fureverywhere (May 14, 2016)

I agree that making your gerbil a service animal messes it up for the certified creatures that can be life or death for their humans. But back to pigs. My creatures are spoiled rotten. I'm sure there are families with pigs that can care for them above and beyond. I knew a guy who had a skunk years ago. The skunk thought himself a cat. Better fed than in the wild and happy with humans win/win


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## IKE (May 14, 2016)

I just decided to become sorta pig free today also.......I only ate one, thick cut, fried golden brown pork chop for supper instead of my usual two.

Did I mention how good the gravy was made from the little crunchies in the bottom of the skillet and a little flour and milk when spooned over the mashed potatoes and the made from scratch biscuits ?

Being pig free worked so well today I may try becoming chicken free tomorrow........Mmmmmmm.


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## Cookie (May 14, 2016)

Ike, you a very bad man.  BBBBBBBad.


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## Debby (May 14, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> ..... For the pork lovers, perhaps in China they have a dog roast in the same way? Would that make you uncomfortable? I would become strictly plant eater right there.




China has the Yulin dog meat festival every year.  10,000 to 15,000 dogs are slaughtered on June 20th and most apparently are bludgeoned to death.  And throughout the year, upwards of 10 million die equally horrific deaths.  Cats are also treated as horribly, and they are often boiled alive.  An extreme end of a tradition on the continuum of violence.


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## Butterfly (May 14, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> Anyone see the Chase Bank commercial where the couple is shown walking their mini pig into the bank?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFlfaXJW4Y



Yes, it's really cute.


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## Butterfly (May 14, 2016)

Debby said:


> China has the Yulin dog meat festival every year.  10,000 to 15,000 dogs are slaughtered on June 20th and most apparently are bludgeoned to death.  And throughout the year, upwards of 10 million die equally horrific deaths.  Cats are also treated as horribly, and they are often boiled alive.  An extreme end of a tradition on the continuum of violence.



Really disgusting.


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## tnthomas (May 14, 2016)

I like the idea of being vegan, but it would not work out in the household, as a practical matter.  Also, I really like chicken....alot.


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## Laurie (May 15, 2016)

There is a family story of how, when I was a toddler, a friend and I got in with a sow and tried to milk her!

As she had a full litter feeding at the time I have since come to know ho lucky we were, nursing sows can be a bit touchy to say the least!

We always assumed that she accepted two grubby little urchins, well known to her anyway, were two of her own.


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## Capt Lightning (May 15, 2016)

Yes anyone can put up pictures of 'cute little piggies' and conveniently forget that they turn rapidly into 250lbs. of ravenous eating machines.  I help to keep rare breed pigs and if it wasn't for us small scale 'farmers', these breeds probably wouldn't exist.  I don't eat large scale commercially produced pork from pigs kept in confined spaces and used as breeding machines.  However, I am an unapologetic omnivore who likes meat (including pork) and we try to give our animals a good, if short, life.

If you don't like it,  don't eat pork .

p.s  I'm making venison (Roe deer) bourguignon for dinner.


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## Debby (May 15, 2016)

Your comment Capt makes me think of little human babies and how cute they start out and what they turn into.  

I used to be a church attendee and was committed to my church, my Lord, my faith, etc.  But then one day, something changed and that faith began to change.  Now, while I don't believe as I did, I try to keep in mind, the sensibilities of those folks that I know who are still devoted. While I sometimes  enjoy digging deep into the old memory bank and discussing Biblical things I make an effort to not offend or denigrate their beliefs, instead choosing to allow them their 'opinions' while I have mine.  I try to be considerate.  I often feel that it would be nice if others afforded people who've chosen a lifestyle such as mine with the same consideration.  My daughter, my own mother often forget I suppose whom they are talking to and I get to hear about their latest beef dinner or the KFC chicken they had last night or how much they love xyz, all of which conjure up the most tragic and horrific images in my mind.......but you know, as I was writing this I was suddenly reminded of a lesson that I realized a few years ago, and that is to never expect anything of anyone, because you're sure to be disappointed.

And like you Cookie, I'm blown away by the vast majority of people who refer to themselves as animal lovers and yet when it comes to the lifetime of suffering that animals receive at the hands of humans, there is no question that their participation in that suffering will continue.  My only involvement comes by way of having a cat and a dog who are true carnivores (although the dog can manage with some plant foods) and I am grieved every time I feed them because I can't step away from it entirely.  If I hadn't already had the dog prior to 'waking up' and if the cat hadn't reached out to us in the midst of his suffering, I would be entirely free of that cycle of violence to whatever degree is possible in this world.  

My personal belief in the afterlife includes (from all of my reading and research on NDE's and physics, etc.) that life carries on and that we do this over and over again, each time making an effort to reach up to a new and grander version of ourselves.  I also believe that we have choice as to the 'where' and 'how' of that experience, and based on this issue and how we humans so willingly commit violence and bloodshed against those in our society (global or local), I intend that my 'next time around' will not happen here.


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## Ruth n Jersey (May 15, 2016)

I knew someone who had a pet pig and that pig was so affectionate. Always wanted to be petted and was very well taken care of. No piggy smell at all. The one thing that upset me about pet pigs was a few years ago it was a fad to have one of those small pot bellied pigs for a pet. Seems like a lot of folks got one. Many were just regular pigs sold as the smaller type. When they started to grow and put on the pounds people got rid of them. Many ended up in the slaughter houses. Some people near starved the poor things to keep their weight in check. Such a shame. I believe no breed of any animal should be popularized to such a degree that folks purchase them for that reason. Another perfect example was Taco Bell with the Chihuahua commercial. Many ran out and bought them also. After having them for awhile they decided they didn't care for the breed for one reason or another, so off they went to dog shelters where many were destroyed.


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## SeaBreeze (May 15, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> I help to keep rare breed pigs and if it wasn't for us small scale 'farmers', these breeds probably wouldn't exist.  I don't eat large scale commercially produced pork from pigs kept in confined spaces and used as breeding machines.
> p.s  I'm making venison (Roe deer) bourguignon for dinner.



I've seen the photos you've shared with us here of your beautiful pigs Capt.  Very unique in appearance and quite obviously well cared for, you're the ideal example of what I was talking about when I said I respected the ranchers and farmers who treat their animals well!   Hope you enjoyed your venison dinner, sounds good!


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## Capt Lightning (May 15, 2016)

The first pigs we kept were British Saddlebacks.  They arrived as cute little piglets and within 5 months they were around 100 kg (220 lbs).  At full size they each ate around 4 lbs of pig pellets + vegetables per day, and drank a large amount of water.  They had a great taste, but tended to be fat.   For a change last year we raised 'Oxford Sandy & Black' pigs and they had a  pretty obnoxious temperament.   This year's pigs are 'Berkshire' boars which are very good natured, but ravenously hungry.  They are slow growing and will not reach full weight till around November.

I would not think of having a pig as a pet, and we never give them names - just numbers.


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## Robusta (May 15, 2016)

We raise our own beef and poultry, we would not use enough parts of a pig to make it feasible to raise our own. We trade beef with a friend that does pigs.  I know that for those that are several stages removed from the natural order of the Human food chain it may seem incredible, but we love,yes love our animals.  I find it an awesome responsibility to shepherd these creatures though every step of their lives many times from conception to slaughter. My animals exist for a single purpose and that is to provide sustenance for my self and my family.  My animals have all they need and more for a healthy content life and a respectful and proper final disposition. 

  If you are vegetarian or vegan,good for you, Eat as you like,but do not expect me to restrict or modify my dietary requirements to suit your belief.  Nor will I allow you to infer that your lifestyle is somehow more inherently noble or pure than mine!


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## Bullie76 (May 15, 2016)

Robusta said:


> If you are vegetarian or vegan,good for you, Eat as you like,but do not expect me to restrict or modify my dietary requirements to suit your belief.  Nor will I allow you to infer that your lifestyle is somehow more inherently noble or pure than mine!



Same. I have no desire to go the vegan route. I try to maintain a balanced diet though. Veggies with fish and chicken mostly. But do enjoy an occasional steak, pork chop and sometimes bacon with my eggs.


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## Kitties (May 15, 2016)

Robusta said:


> If you are vegetarian or vegan,good for you, Eat as you like,but do not expect me to restrict or modify my dietary requirements to suit your belief.  Nor will I allow you to infer that your lifestyle is somehow more inherently noble or pure than mine!


I do find this part of your post interesting. I have not eaten meat in 25 years and have been plant based for 10. I don't think I have ever spoken or written something with this tone regarding my own views. I have worked at the same place for over 5 years. Most have no idea I don't eat meat.

I know there are some real jerks in the community that don't eat meat or eat plant based. I've been victimized by them since I'm overweight. Veganism has become a money making business like most things. While some of these people probably started out with great intentions, it's become about money and egos.

I don't donate of advocate for farm animals anymore. I'm just a person no one would guess eats plant based, based on my looks. Some of the posts in this thread went the predictable route.


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## ndynt (May 15, 2016)

Robusta said:


> If you are vegetarian or vegan,good for you, Eat as you like,but do not expect me to restrict or modify my dietary requirements to suit your belief.  Nor will I allow you to infer that your lifestyle is somehow more inherently noble or pure than mine!


Even though I had never heard of vegetarians, since early childhood I have very rarely eaten meat.   My family and friends enjoy meat and I have always cooked it for them.  Feel it is a personal preference.


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## Robusta (May 15, 2016)

I suppose I may have come across as defensive. My cousin and her girlfriend are militantly vegan to the point of vandalizing and endangering my animals and property while trying to teach me the errors of my ways.  Their efforts to "liberate" my cows ended with a three day old calf in a creek catching, pneumonia and the rest of the herd scattered across the road and on the neighbors place.
My defense mechanisms always kick in when I hear or see the V word.


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## Laurie (May 16, 2016)

Capt Lightning said:


> The first pigs we kept were British Saddlebacks.  They arrived as cute little piglets and within 5 months they were around 100 kg (220 lbs).  At full size they each ate around 4 lbs of pig pellets + vegetables per day, and drank a large amount of water.  They had a great taste, but tended to be fat.   For a change last year we raised 'Oxford Sandy & Black' pigs and they had a  pretty obnoxious temperament.   This year's pigs are 'Berkshire' boars which are very good natured, but ravenously hungry.  They are slow growing and will not reach full weight till around November.
> 
> I would not think of having a pig as a pet, and we never give them names - just numbers.




Do you have any local retail outlets?  I normally buy Puddledub, which I expect you are aware of, but I'm always up for a change!


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## Capt Lightning (May 16, 2016)

No Laurie, we raise the pigs for our own consumption.  Our friends who own the land, eat mostly pork and so have a greater share of the costs and the end product.  If we wanted to go down a 'commercial' route, the pork would have to be professionally butchered and packed, adding to the costs.  I'm afraid that small scale production is relatively expensive.  You simpy can't produce 'home grown' pork for the cost of supermarket meat.  From start to finish, a pig will cost about £220 and this will yield around 65 kg of pork.  (note that we don't count our labour or infrastructure costs in this)  About 40 kg will be 'prime cuts' and the rest will go for casseroles & sausages.  If we wanted bacon, the pigs would be kept longer / heavier.

You can see that if we added set-up costs, labour, butchery, packing etc - to make a profit would be well nigh impossible.

Robusta, I'm so glad to hear you say that you love your animals.  I think a lot of people don't understand that the vast majority of livestock owners, care deeply for the welfare of their animals and give them the best possible life.  When you get out of bed on a cold morning, walk across a wet field to feed your animals, then possibly clean out their pens, check everything is fine - before you go home to wash and have breakfast - that takes a bit of committment.


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## Robusta (May 16, 2016)

The worst is going out on a frozen morning to bust the ice out of a stock tank cause the heater went bad!


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## Laurie (May 16, 2016)

*Capt Lightning*

Yes, I know of three local producers who went to the wall when St Andrews abattoir shut down,  they simply couldn't afford the transport and extra welfare costs taking the pigs to the net nearest one.


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## Cookie (May 16, 2016)

fftopic:   This thread is about avoiding eating pork, not about pig farming boys.


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## fureverywhere (May 16, 2016)

fftopic:   This thread is about avoiding eating pork, not about pig farming boys. 

Exactly, not being defensive of course, but if you want to exchange farming tips start a new thread jeez. I'm not being noble I just feel that eating less or no animal products is healthier. I mean I feel mild guilt about fish. But I have a Koi tank in the kitchen and they eat...fish flakes. So in any case I can enjoy fish completely. My relatives were hunters and thought nothing of having heads and antlers on their walls...but that's not me.


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## ndynt (May 16, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> Exactly, not being defensive of course, but if you want to exchange farming tips start a new thread jeez.


Please do.  I for one am enjoying your farming interchanges.  Very interesting.


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## SeaBreeze (May 16, 2016)

ndynt said:


> Please do.  I for one am enjoying your farming interchanges.  Very interesting.



I agree Nona, I would also like to hear more about farming and ranching from seniors with hands on experience.


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## Laurie (May 17, 2016)

Well, excuse me!

I was not aware we were so rigid about staying on thread.


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## IKE (May 17, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Well, excuse me!
> 
> I was not aware we were so rigid about staying on thread.



We never have been in the past Laurie so don't let it bother you, it certainly doesn't bother me if a thread 'drifts away'.

I've seen many, many threads (some started by me) go several pages simply because they got off the original topic..........as far as I'm concerned conversation is conversation so if a thread 'drifts away' it ain't no biggie in my book.


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## Debby (May 17, 2016)

Kitties said:


> I do find this part of your post interesting. I have not eaten meat in 25 years and have been plant based for 10. I don't think I have ever spoken or written something with this tone regarding my own views. I have worked at the same place for over 5 years. Most have no idea I don't eat meat.
> 
> I know there are some real jerks in the community that don't eat meat or eat plant based. I've been victimized by them since I'm overweight. Veganism has become a money making business like most things. While some of these people probably started out with great intentions, it's become about money and egos.
> 
> I don't donate of advocate for farm animals anymore. I'm just a person no one would guess eats plant based, based on my looks. Some of the posts in this thread went the predictable route.




I don't think veganism has become about money or egos at all Kitties.  I think that there are people who follow that lifestyle and who are entrepreneurial in spirit who've decided to earn a living while producing products that meet their 'spiritual' philosophies and I can only ask, is there anything wrong with that?  People who eat meat, raise pigs or have companies that make cheese.....why not people who choose to create things that are not produced at the cost of lives?


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## Kitties (May 17, 2016)

Debby said:


> I don't think veganism has become about money or egos at all Kitties.  I think that there are people who follow that lifestyle and who are entrepreneurial in spirit who've decided to earn a living while producing products that meet their 'spiritual' philosophies and I can only ask, is there anything wrong with that?  People who eat meat, raise pigs or have companies that make cheese.....why not people who choose to create things that are not produced at the cost of lives?


I'll have to disagree. I'm not talking about companies who produce organic or plant based foods. Though I have to wonder if all they would welcome from me is my money.

I'm talking about some of the big names in veganism. Dr Mcdougall, Ingrid Newkirk. Not sure if I'm spelling their names right. They have made vicious comments directed toward fat people. They sell veganism as a way to be thin and healthy and people like me are bad for business. Though statistics show that people who go vegan for health reasons vs ethical reasons usually have a much higher degree of going off plant based diets.

I used to donate and attend events at at well known large farm animal rescue group. I had three negative experiences there. The first two I could almost ignore. Being treated lousy is my baseline. But when I heard the co founder state in a speech that vegans should be advocates by appearance as part of an overall speech, I was done. This was stated at an event I was at.  I can't even tell you how much that hurt my feelings. I left the event in tears. I have nothing to do with this organization anymore. I'm bad for business and my looks are more important than who I am. I donated money to this organization and loved the animals. All they wanted out of me was my money and I can't visit the animals anymore.


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## Cookie (May 17, 2016)

Kitties, that sounds like you've been burned by that group.  I stay away from any organized groups like that and do whatever I think is best for me.  My decision to be meat-free is both ethical and health based.  I try not to get on my soap box but every now and then I forget and blurt out my opinions and sometimes people get offended.  

I figure with the older folks it doesn't make much difference, if there was going to be damage due to diet its already done. and they'll won't be around much longer anyway. I believe changes will be evident in the future with the more flexible younger generation more likely to choose a vegetarian or vegan diet.


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## fureverywhere (May 17, 2016)

I know we tend to wander all over topic...but I started it as to why I would begin to stop eating animals gradually...and it turns into folks sharing their farming techniques. I mean I know a good steak and baked potato can be awesome. But eventually I want to seek out alternatives. It's not about people, it's sympathy for the poor creatures that have to die for such things.


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## mitchezz (May 17, 2016)

Why do it gradually? You either think it's wrong or you don't.


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## fureverywhere (May 17, 2016)

See I don't do the cooking. My hubby or kids do. Meat is expected by them and cooking is one of my least favorite things to do. I don't really like pork products so one meat at a time...works for me.


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## Ruthanne (May 17, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> See I don't do the cooking. My hubby or kids do. Meat is expected by them and cooking is one of my least favorite things to do. I don't really like pork products so one meat at a time...works for me.


You are helping the piggies.


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## Kitties (May 18, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> I know we tend to wander all over topic...but I started it as to why I would begin to stop eating animals gradually...and it turns into folks sharing their farming techniques. I mean I know a good steak and baked potato can be awesome. But eventually I want to seek out alternatives. It's not about people, it's sympathy for the poor creatures that have to die for such things.


It is about people in a lot of ways. It's the people who choose what they eat. And some people who promote a more ethical way of eating are saying and doing things that are hurtful to people and ultimately harm the animals. For example, I will never donate to an organization that advocates for farm animals again. The animals lost a supporter because of a person who is seen as a big farm animal rights advocate and gets fawned over all over the internet. 

Some of these vegetarian and vegan forums are just awful also.


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## fureverywhere (May 18, 2016)

It's sad when people get all self righteous about it. I mean more than just people food even. Mentioning Purina or Alpo on some dog sites will get you flamed right off the computer. What we feed ourselves, what we feed our creatures, is our own personal choice.


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## Debby (May 18, 2016)

Kitties said:


> It is about people in a lot of ways. It's the people who choose what they eat. And some people who promote a more ethical way of eating are saying and doing things that are hurtful to people and ultimately harm the animals. For example, I will never donate to an organization that advocates for farm animals again. The animals lost a supporter because of a person who is seen as a big farm animal rights advocate and gets fawned over all over the internet.
> 
> Some of these vegetarian and vegan forums are just awful also.




So you don't advocate for animals ......because some forums are awful?  That makes me think of my daughter who refuses to try a Krispy-Kreme doughnut......because everyone else loves them.

You know, 'weight' is an issue in our society no matter what and part of the problem is that most of society doesn't realize that there is new science on what is causing it.  They have no idea.  Most still think it's only lack of exercise coupled with too much food.  If I hadn't watched a documentary a couple years ago, I wouldn't know anything about how chemical obesogens are changing our unborn babies DNA and making some of them have the most incredible (maybe impossible) difficulty in losing excess weight and even causing ordinary birth weight babies to suddenly reach a certain age and something changes and they start putting on the pounds.  

Let's face it, most find it more fun to 'follow the Kardashians' or talk about the latest blockbuster movies or go to a game than to watch documentaries on health sciences and such.  I'm sorry that people give you a hard time about your weight, so unfair and unkind and not the image at all that is the ideal of veganism (kindness, compassion, etc).  Things do seem to be improving bit by bit in the animals situation (gestations crates are on their way out in America and to a lesser degree in Canada, restaurants are starting to look for sources that measure up to at least an improved 'minimum' of humane care, people now understand the difference between caged and 'free range' eggs) so maybe there will come a time when the care and consideration that some vegans have for all the animals will extend to people who don't match a preconceived standard of appearance.


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## Debby (May 18, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> It's sad when people get all self righteous about it. I mean more than just people food even. Mentioning Purina or Alpo on some dog sites will get you flamed right off the computer. What we feed ourselves, what we feed our creatures, is our own personal choice.




When I first adopted the vegan lifestyle, I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone.  Just like when you read a story about some monster who violated little kids, I had that same kind of anger.  My feelings were raw and my rage burned brightly and hot.  In the years since, I've learned to discuss in a more constructive way instead of just letting my feelings run away with me, but then I'm on a different life path overall possibly than the other folks you're thinking of and the grief over the injustices to all animals is one part of my 'different path'.  Their hearts are in the right place and they simply haven't learned to control the anger. 

 Mind you, sometimes anger is required in order to effect change isn't it?  Do you think that the few good things that are happening for animals would be happening at all if everyone remained mute and private on the issue?  I don't think so.


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## Ruthanne (May 18, 2016)

Debby said:


> When I first adopted the vegan lifestyle, I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone.  Just like when you read a story about some monster who violated little kids, I had that same kind of anger.  My feelings were raw and my rage burned brightly and hot.  In the years since, I've learned to discuss in a more constructive way instead of just letting my feelings run away with me, but then I'm on a different life path overall possibly than the other folks you're thinking of and the grief over the injustices to all animals is one part of my 'different path'.  Their hearts are in the right place and they simply haven't learned to control the anger.
> 
> Mind you, sometimes anger is required in order to effect change isn't it?  Do you think that the few good things that are happening for animals would be happening at all if everyone remained mute and private on the issue?  I don't think so.


I advocate for animals and have felt such rage at times but now am learning that  I don't have to be so angry to help animals.  I am not vegan but rather mostly vegetarian.  I've been blasted and shunned by vegans for eating eggs and cheese.  I feel I am doing the best I can right now.  But yes, anger does motivate people.  But I don't think vegans should be so mad at vegetarians!!


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## Ed Mashburn (May 18, 2016)

Interesting discussion here.  I raised hogs for many years when we lived up in the wilds of the Arkansas Ozarks.  Hogs were good to consume stuff that we couldn't eat and turn it into high-quality food that we could eat.
Now, our house pig lives in her crate in the dining room- and no, she doesn't smell at all. She learned about housetraining in the first day.
She is much smarter than the dogs, and she understands a great many things that we say- truly- it's ture.
Would I ever raise another hog for family consumption purposes?
Of course I would.
There's a big difference between family pets and family nutrition.
And how did I manage to avoid making pets out of the farm raised critters? I named them after school administrators for whom I worked- principals and superintendents. this made things such as castration and butchering much easier.
Pigs are smart people, in their own way.
Ed


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## Capt Lightning (May 18, 2016)

Nice one ED.  Our pigs just have numbers - and slightly different markings round their snouts.  When we first raised the pigs, I wondered how I'd feel when they went for the chop, but I had no problem.  I learned the necessary butchery skills from Youtube.

It has struck me that Veganism must be a fairly modern thing.  Not long ago, all sorts of items & clothes were mainly made from or used leather - shoes, furniture, steering wheel covers, handbags, belts etc..


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## Bonzo (May 18, 2016)

I think becoming a vegetarian

has been one big missed steak


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## fureverywhere (May 18, 2016)

I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone. 

I felt like that after I adopted Sophie. She's a Boxer, German Shepherd, Pibble mix...but my first walk with her and a group of guys yelled " Pit!!!!" and made a run for it. I was a cat person for fifty years, what were they talking about? I began educating myself about the bully breeds and their place in US history. And like you say it made me so angry to read the stereotype of demon dog, when I knew she was anything but. But I stopped being so defensive eventually. Now I can walk my pups with pride and dismiss the people who don't understand.


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## Ruthanne (May 18, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> I was so angry at the suffering and injustice and the lack of empathy that I was ready and willing to blast everyone.
> 
> I felt like that after I adopted Sophie. She's a Boxer, German Shepherd, Pibble mix...but my first walk with her and a group of guys yelled " Pit!!!!" and made a run for it. I was a cat person for fifty years, what were they talking about? I began educating myself about the bully breeds and their place in US history. And like you say it made me so angry to read the stereotype of demon dog, when I knew she was anything but. But I stopped being so defensive eventually. Now I can walk my pups with pride and dismiss the people who don't understand.


:encouragement:


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## Debby (May 19, 2016)

Bonzo said:


> I think becoming a vegetarian
> 
> has been one big missed steak




No, actually being veg'n means being able to look them in the eye and knowing that I am 'part of the joy' in their lives!  Being a veg'n means that I'm working in a huge way to try and protect the health of our planet.  And being veg'n means that I'm living consistently with the picture that I have of myself.

My daughter adopted her pit mix, Hooch, about five years ago and she did the same as you fureverywhere.  She made a point of learning how to deal with the 'strong' dog personality before she brought him home.  Mind you, living in Whistler which is a very dog friendly community, she didn't face the same kind of ostracizing attitude that some areas display.  And when people would see her walking him with two ropes for leashes and a halti to slow him down, she made a point of talking to them about how she was helping him learn to relax and get over his issues, but focusing always on his reactions so that she could catch those moments when his energy was rising.  By the time she'd had him for about a year and a half, she was taking him to the dog park which previously had been a difficult place for him and then it wasn't long before the leashes came off and he was playing with the other mutts!   

One of the things she also always was aware of was that her dealing with his strong personality was paramount to his being able to continue living because invariably, even if another dog attacks a pit (which happened to Hooch several times), there's the very real likelihood that the pit will be blamed.  He'd get too focussed on other dogs and she'd just get in his face, grab him by the chops and force him to look her in the eye while she scolded and then the trance would be broken and he'd settle.  Thanks to her, he spent his last few years of life absolutely loved and loving and lived in a household with two other dogs(one a chihuahua) and two cats!  I think you hit on the key to any strong breed and that's education --- for you, not the dog.  They already know how to be dogs, but people too often don't know how to be the leader of a strong dog.


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## Kitties (May 19, 2016)

Debby said:


> So you don't advocate for animals ......because some forums are awful?  That makes me think of my daughter who refuses to try a Krispy-Kreme doughnut......because everyone else loves them.
> 
> You know, 'weight' is an issue in our society no matter what and part of the problem is that most of society doesn't realize that there is new science on what is causing it.  They have no idea.  Most still think it's only lack of exercise coupled with too much food.  If I hadn't watched a documentary a couple years ago, I wouldn't know anything about how chemical obesogens are changing our unborn babies DNA and making some of them have the most incredible (maybe impossible) difficulty in losing excess weight and even causing ordinary birth weight babies to suddenly reach a certain age and something changes and they start putting on the pounds.
> 
> Let's face it, most find it more fun to 'follow the Kardashians' or talk about the latest blockbuster movies or go to a game than to watch documentaries on health sciences and such.  I'm sorry that people give you a hard time about your weight, so unfair and unkind and not the image at all that is the ideal of veganism (kindness, compassion, etc).  Things do seem to be improving bit by bit in the animals situation (gestations crates are on their way out in America and to a lesser degree in Canada, restaurants are starting to look for sources that measure up to at least an improved 'minimum' of humane care, people now understand the difference between caged and 'free range' eggs) so maybe there will come a time when the care and consideration that some vegans have for all the animals will extend to people who don't match a preconceived standard of appearance.



No Debby, I don't advocate because some forums are awful. That's just taking what I wrote and making me sound like some simplistic dim wit. Which is not unusual in my experiences. I just mentioned that those those are no place of support either. My end of helping farm animals was sitting at an event  where the co founder of this organization made a comment about "appearance" as part of being a good influence to veganism. I had been a member of this organization for 8 years. Donated hundreds of dollars over the years. Maybe you missed the part where I stated I was deeply hurt and left the event in tears. Previous I had an experience at one of these events where I sat at a large round table. No one talked to me. I got up to get my food. When I returned my liter water bottle and tote bag had been moved. Some tween age girl was sitting in my place. I noted the male watching me as I walked to the table. I had a plate of food in one hand and had to get my items with my other hand and find another place to sit. Guess I wasn't wanted there. Easy to push some middle aged female out. 

Believe me, I'm not what these organizations are looking for. In the beginning I had no idea of this but I learned. There are plenty of examples of this on the internet. I should still send them money. I've put up with a lot of abuse and bullying in my life. I can't take anymore. And there really is no support for someone like me


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## Cookie (May 19, 2016)

Kitties, it was very rude for the girl to move your stuff and take your place and you had every right to tell her so and asked her to move.  I think if I was in that kind of situation I would speak up and/or complain to the organization heads about their rudeness via a letter or phone call and let them know that is why there would be no more money from me.


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## Debby (May 19, 2016)

Kitties said:


> No Debby, I don't advocate because some forums are awful. That's just taking what I wrote and making me sound like some simplistic dim wit. Which is not unusual in my experiences. I just mentioned that those those are no place of support either. My end of helping farm animals was sitting at an event  where the co founder of this organization made a comment about "appearance" as part of being a good influence to veganism. I had been a member of this organization for 8 years. Donated hundreds of dollars over the years. Maybe you missed the part where I stated I was deeply hurt and left the event in tears. Previous I had an experience at one of these events where I sat at a large round table. No one talked to me. I got up to get my food. When I returned my liter water bottle and tote bag had been moved. Some tween age girl was sitting in my place. I noted the male watching me as I walked to the table. I had a plate of food in one hand and had to get my items with my other hand and find another place to sit. Guess I wasn't wanted there. Easy to push some middle aged female out.
> 
> Believe me, I'm not what these organizations are looking for. In the beginning I had no idea of this but I learned. There are plenty of examples of this on the internet. I should still send them money. I've put up with a lot of abuse and bullying in my life. I can't take anymore. And there really is no support for someone like me




Sorry I didn't mean to do that and you're right, I should be and am ashamed that I said it that way.  

As for not advocating for farm animals, can I ask what you would do if you were at a restaurant with friends and they weren't aware of your affinity for the critters and asked why you didn't order the 'famous burger' or whatever?  I do understand about it sometimes being difficult in person to be outspoken (I do great here but chose to be extremely private in person because face to face communications make me very anxious) but when someone has asked me on occasion I generally say something like, "once I became aware of how animals are treated, I decided to not be part of the violence anymore".  I guess when I listen to you, my concern is that because some person was less than considerate, that animals who had nothing to do with it, would not benefit by your compassion.  Although a decision to not include them in your diet and lifestyle goes a huge way towards reaching out, that I will agree.

Again, I'm sure sorry Kitties and all I can say is thank you for helping me learn yet another life lesson.  Sometimes I feel good about my progress and other times I admit to feeling considerably embarrassed.  This is one of the latter.


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## Robusta (May 19, 2016)

That is quite the strident reply! By speaking in that matter you are telling your dining companions that they are cruel savages and thereby elevating yourself to a higher plane. You will protest, but that is exactly the spirit of your message.
    A more appropriate, gentler and kinder response would be something to the effect; "I prefer not to consume meat due to personal convictions."  You see how simple that is? No implied condemnation, no drama, no guilt trip. You all get to enjoy your meals, and your friends don't have anything to talk crap about  behind your back. And I can assure you that if you are prone to making these kinds of proclamations to your friends, they are talking or snickering!


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## Debby (May 19, 2016)

I've been sitting here looking at your comment Robusta and trying to figure out how to reply to you.  It isn't easy, but in the spirit of my reply to Kitties I'm definitely trying.

I understand your point, but I don't think you understand my perspective on the issue of how animals are treated by our society.  Perhaps if you had spent as many hours as I have reading and researching the various animal use industries, you might at the very least understand how someone could become as grieved as I feel about their situation.   Mostly I have to hide my feelings and never make any mention of how abused they are and watch as the world continues to treat them like they are nothing.  I think I've actually made that suggested remark once and I'm still friends with those folks.  And on the off chance  they decided to talk about me behind my back, then first of all, that doesn't say much about them as friends particularly if they chose to hold me up as an object of ridicule but secondly and more importantly to me, perhaps it may have planted a seed, provoked further thought on what I said, why I said it.  Change in the human heart usually happens very slowly and may not be evident immediately or even for years, but if that seed is planted, there's always the possibility that it will take root at some point.  And if they chose to be the kind of 'friend' who gossips and snickers, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to let go of those toxic personalities.

I think if you are going to participate in those industries, it is your responsibility to understand exactly what you are participating in.  None of us have the right to hide from the results of our actions.  If you are going to toss garbage out the window or throw it out to end up on the beach and then in the water, then you should know how you are killing seabirds and other wildlife.  If you are pouring used oil down storm drains, then you have to know how you are killing salmon fry.  If I say something unkind, then I should find out how I have hurt someones feelings.  I think the fact that I  phrased it as indicated is a consideration for my listener as I wouldn't and didn't go into the kind of detail that would give them the truest and fullest picture of all that is involved unless they asked followup questions or indicated some interest in continuing the conversation.  

Killing animals and eating them is violence and that's just a fact and sanitizing it so that people can feel good not knowing,  does nothing for the critters.  It doesn't save a life and it doesn't even add any impetus to improvement in animal welfare standards.  There's currently a move in society to get sows out of gestation crates and hens out of battery cages.  Do you think that would have happened if people didn't become aware of their pain because other folks laid the situation out there for inspection?  Those sows aren't moving out of gestation crates to keep me happy because I still won't eat pigs, but it's a sign that many people, have heard, have listened and have begun to care and are demanding 'change' even if they aren't going to make any greater change in this lifetime.  And if you are a pig, even those incremental changes are significant.  

So if you want to characterize all of that as strident, then so be it.  But who ever said any form of evolution, be it physical or spiritual, happens gently and with smiles all around?


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## Cookie (May 19, 2016)

Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us.  I've been going through this since the early 70s when I stopped eating meat cold turkey (no pun intended). It was almost unheard of then, although nowadays we seem to be more a recognized bunch (a bigger proportion of the population I guess) and vegetarian foods are more readily available in restaurants based on today's demand. In so many situations work, social, family I was considered a real oddball -- isn't it time we stopped apologizing to those who seem to find it a personal affront when we tell them we don't want to eat meat and why.


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## IKE (May 19, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us.



It's a two way street, I love meat of all kinds and I certainly don't mock or slam those choose to live meat free nor do I expect to be criticized for enjoying meat.

I had a very delicious, thick, black Angus T-bone steak this evening and loved every morsel.....it's all about freedom of choice.


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## Ruthanne (May 19, 2016)

Debby said:


> I've been sitting here looking at your comment Robusta and trying to figure out how to reply to you.  It isn't easy, but in the spirit of my reply to Kitties I'm definitely trying.
> 
> I understand your point, but I don't think you understand my perspective on the issue of how animals are treated by our society.  Perhaps if you had spent as many hours as I have reading and researching the various animal use industries, you might at the very least understand how someone could become as grieved as I feel about their situation.   Mostly I have to hide my feelings and never make any mention of how abused they are and watch as the world continues to treat them like they are nothing.  I think I've actually made that suggested remark once and I'm still friends with those folks.  And on the off chance  they decided to talk about me behind my back, then first of all, that doesn't say much about them as friends particularly if they chose to hold me up as an object of ridicule but secondly and more importantly to me, perhaps it may have planted a seed, provoked further thought on what I said, why I said it.  Change in the human heart usually happens very slowly and may not be evident immediately or even for years, but if that seed is planted, there's always the possibility that it will take root at some point.  And if they chose to be the kind of 'friend' who gossips and snickers, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to let go of those toxic personalities.
> 
> ...


I could not have said it better!  Thank you Debby!


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## Ruthanne (May 19, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Why do vegetarians have to constantly be ever so careful how we tell some touchy meat eaters that we choose not to eat meat and why, in case they get offended, yet meat eaters don't hesitate to slam and mock us.  I've been going through this since the early 70s when I stopped eating meat cold turkey (no pun intended). It was almost unheard of then, although nowadays we seem to be more a recognized bunch (a bigger proportion of the population I guess) and vegetarian foods are more readily available in restaurants based on today's demand. In so many situations work, social, family I was considered a real oddball -- isn't it time we stopped apologizing to those who seem to find it a personal affront when we tell them we don't want to eat meat and why.


Yes, it's getting to be that time Cookie!


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## Cookie (May 19, 2016)

IKE said:


> I had a very delicious, thick, black Angus T-bone steak this evening and loved every morsel.....it's all about freedom of choice.



This is what I get a lot from meateaters - they smack their lips and tell me about some delicious steak they just ate, as if I'm going to share their enthusiasm, but it does not sound the least bit yummy to me at all, the opposite.

An acquaintance once recited a lamb recipe to me, knowing full well I did not eat meat. I found that very insensitive. I told her to stop since I would never cook it, but she didn't get it and got offended - really ignorant, some people.


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## Ruthanne (May 19, 2016)

Cookie said:


> This is what I get a lot from meateaters - they smack their lips and tell me about some delicious steak they just ate, as if I'm going to share their enthusiasm, but it does not sound the least bit yummy to me at all, the opposite.
> 
> An acquaintance once recited a lamb recipe to me, knowing full well I did not eat meat. I found that very insensitive. I told her to stop since I would never cook it, but she didn't get it and got offended - really ignorant, some people.


I surely know what you mean jelly bean!


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## SeaBreeze (May 19, 2016)

Kitties said:


> I'm talking about some of the big names in veganism. Dr Mcdougall, Ingrid Newkirk.  They have made vicious comments directed toward fat people. They sell veganism as a way to be thin and healthy and people like me are bad for business.
> 
> I used to donate and attend events at at well known large farm animal rescue group.  But when I heard the co founder state in a speech that vegans should be advocates by appearance as part of an overall speech, I was done. This was stated at an event I was at.  I can't even tell you how much that hurt my feelings. I left the event in tears. I have nothing to do with this organization anymore. I'm bad for business and my looks are more important than who I am. I donated money to this organization and loved the animals. All they wanted out of me was my money and I can't visit the animals anymore.



Kitties, I'm so sorry to hear that, I've heard talk of vegans looking down their noses at those who still eat animal products, but I had to be reminded of the body shaming the big names engage in.  If you no longer support PETA, that's not a terrible thing, from all I've learned over the years they are not the best organization when it comes to protecting animals anyway.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be on those forums anymore, who would want to be around people like that, some support!   Good for you for breaking loose from these people, there are many quality animal organizations to support out there and many people who choose their diets without the negative judgment of others. 

http://www.theveganrd.com/2012/04/body-shaming-fails-vegans-and-vegan-advocacy.html

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm


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## IKE (May 20, 2016)

Cookie said:


> really ignorant, some people.



I agree Cookie.......some folks are totally ignorant.


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## Debby (May 20, 2016)

IKE said:


> It's a two way street, I love meat of all kinds and I certainly don't mock or slam those choose to live meat free nor do I expect to be criticized for enjoying meat.
> 
> I had a very delicious, thick, black Angus T-bone steak this evening and loved every morsel.....it's all about freedom of choice.




In the context of someone deciding that they don't want to eat a certain type of animal anymore and with several veg'n chiming in, the finish of your comment belies the part that I underlined.  Kind of mocking you know.


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## Robusta (May 20, 2016)

Debby said:


> In the context of someone deciding that they don't want to eat a certain type of animal anymore and with several veg'n chiming in, the finish of your comment belies the part that I underlined.  Kind of mocking you know.





I think that works both ways. Reminds me of a non PC joke I have heard,which in reality is quite true.

You meet 5 lesbians
How can you tell which one is the vegan?



She will tell you!!!!


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## IKE (May 20, 2016)

Debby said:


> In the context of someone deciding that they don't want to eat a certain type of animal anymore and with several veg'n chiming in, the finish of your comment belies the part that I underlined.  Kind of mocking you know.



*yawn*......It wasn't meant to be mocking at all but feel free to take it as you want.......I also said, "It's All About Freedom of Choice" but strangely that didn't seem to get underlined.


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## Debby (May 20, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> Kitties, I'm so sorry to hear that, I've heard talk of vegans looking down their noses at those who still eat animal products, but I had to be reminded of the body shaming the big names engage in..........





I don't think vegans look down their noses on anybody  because lets face it, most of us came from the same kind of background and we're aware of how long it took to get to where we are today.  The irritation that you might encounter comes as a result of being so aware of the levels of suffering that animals experience at the hands of people in all the industries that it feels paramount to say something.....and then being faced with the fact that nobody cares.  

And you're absolutely right that body shaming, which is just bullying must stop because it's unkind and accomplishes nothing, but I would also say that the way humanity treats animals is also bullying and only the species is different.  The problem is that if you step up to protest the bullying of a person, you are lauded as a 'hero' but if you protest the 'bullying' that animals receive, you are threatened with fines (at the least) or jail.  In June last year in Toronto, a group was protesting outside a slaughterhouse.  When a truckload of pigs pulled up they began offering the imprisoned animals a sip of water from bottles that they pressed through the holes in the truck so that the thirsty pigs could find some small relief from the heat.  Keep in mind that it's legal to transport animals in all temperatures, with no food or water for up to 36 hours.  Anita Krajnc, a member of that group, is now facing ten years in jail....because she cared.

And currently, many of your American states have Ag-gag laws in place so that no one may get evidence of animal abuse as it happens on farms and in slaughterhouses.  Because nobody cares.  Except those who speak up for the animals.  But the rest of society would silence us, through mockery (I had a 3" steak last night and it was yummy/pigs are made of bacon because it tastes so good....), to dismissal (my diet has nothing to do with you, mind your own business) or if we suggest a vegetarian restaurant, we're treated to a chorus of moans that start out with "Vegetarian! there'll be nothing for me to eat",  to 'if you help ease their suffering, we will through you in jail'.  

We're not looking down our noses so much as our hearts are breaking for the animals who are suffering and no one will listen, nobody cares.  It's kind of like how you'd feel if you found out that someone you love and trust and need in your life, is abusing kids.  If you say something, you'll ruin their life, your life, the lives of your entire family....that's the kind of heart breaking quandary that we find ourselves in on a daily basis.


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## Debby (May 20, 2016)

IKE said:


> *yawn*......It wasn't meant to be mocking at all but feel free to take it as you want.......I also said, "It's All About Freedom of Choice" but strangely that didn't seem to get underlined.




Thats because you are the only one who is getting any choice.  The animals have none and their desires are exactly the same as yours.  Four legged, finned, winged slaves...no choices.  That's why I didn't underline that part.  

Recently I was taught a very good lesson (which I confess I already knew but momentarily forgot, shame on me) that the words you chose are being perceived at the other end by a person with feelings, perhaps not in the way you intended. (yawn) is mockery on top of mockery isn't it?  

And Robusta, your joke is a joke.  Not everyone is like that.  Unless I'm asked, I don't talk about it.  If we're at a restaurant, I'll privately look for a dish I can have, or I'll just order fries or a salad.  I've been a member on this forum for almost two years and it's only recently that anyone has really had it confirmed that I chose a vegan lifestyle and not because I started any threads on it.  I didn't know Ruthanne or Cookie or Kitties practises the same lifestyle until fureverywhere started this thread.  So I think perhaps you also are simply accepting a stereotype as gospel.  And your 'stereotype' changes nothing regarding what I've said here.


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## Robusta (May 20, 2016)

what a crock of crap.  Yes animals in the commercial arena are OCCAISIONALLY abused!!!!!! Blanket accusations like that are nonsensical from the start.
Why would any producer abuse his lively hood WHY?? A stressed animal is a poor producing animal,hard to make a profit with poor production.
I would suggest that you turn off the eco terrorist propaganda videos and get out into the real world go on a couple of farm tours and learn the truth first hand!!!!
Yes slaughter is a violent messy affair, but it is what it is, humans are omnivores and while a very few are happy with out animal protein, the vast majority love meat and will continue to love meat. 
Get off your high horse and accept that you are in a minority and will remain so. Just another example of a plant eater holding herself out to morally superior to a normal person.


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## Debby (May 20, 2016)

It's obvious from your comment that you know very little about the 'animal industries'.  Very little or perhaps nothing?

I come from a farming family.  From childhood, uncles and cousins all  involved in pig raising, dairy farming, beef cattle production in Alberta, Canada.  I had two horses for twenty years so I lived in a rural farming community the entire time.  And on top of all of that experience, I don't have a bias that prevents me from seeing the reality of what transpires whenever humans and animals are involved. 

If you want to get into a discussion of what your digestive system is really like, I can do that too.  I can point out that your system is designed more like a herbivores but that we've learned through the application of heat, how to make meat safe enough to eat and digestible.  I can point out that your tooth structure isn't even similar to omnivores like bears and the great apes or the canid's.  I can point out that your jaw structure is entirely different, your digestive enzymes are different, your entrails are different.....

Bob Comis was a former pig farmer who finally couldn't continue to raise pigs and then send them to slaughter.  America born Howard Lyman, fourth generation cattle rancher who ran a massive factory style dairy and 7,000 head of beef cattle quit....and now speaks for the animals.  This link gives the story of several of these American farmers who woke up and realized they couldn't do what they were doing anymore:  http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/former-meat-dairy-farmers-became-vegan-activists/  What did they finally understand that you refuse to look at?

Slave owners love(d) having slaves too.  But that didn't make it right.

Another thing that you are refusing to look at, along with most of the public, is the detrimental effect of the animal/meat industry on the environment.  You can take no showers for the rest of your life and the benefit is almost non existent to the planet.  You can sell your car and use only your bicycle and while it may do wonders for your backside, by itself, it will do almost nothing for the environment.  However,  meat/dairy production causes 50% of the GHG's that are harming our environment, wasting millions/billions of gallons of drinkable water, decimating the rainforests of the planet and helping to change weather patterns in ways that are going to cause increasing damage and destruction.  The loss of biodiversity on this planet as a result of meat and dairy production continues and at a growing pace.  Not only are ranchers working hard to clear the landscape of anything that presents a problem for their 'product' (wolves, bears, big cats) but the levelling of those forests are reducing millions of acres of habitat every year as well as directly killing the species that live in those forests.  Approximately a billion acres of American land is either grazed or plowed over annually to grow food for the animals that you will eat.  Where there are existing native grazers who compete with cattle, their numbers are also controlled for the benefit of the ranchers and their bottom line.  The crops planted will have tonnes of Roundup and other pesticides sprayed on them which will ultimately find their way into the surrounding landscape as well as the ground water and other water systems leading to the oceans where they pollute and kill.  Given all of that, the 'confusion' over what is killing the ultra necessary bees is bizarre to say the least.  

I'm not going to stoop to name calling and derision because like bullying, it accomplishes nothing.  But share information on the way it 'really is', well that I will do if and when the opportunity presents itself.


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## Cookie (May 20, 2016)

Sometimes its futile trying to reach some people about the meat industry, they just don't get it or are blocked to the idea -- its like trying to take a bone away from a dog.   No matter what information they get, they just can't let go, even if it kills them, which it often does, from cancers which are related to the consumption of red meat. 

People who seem to be threatened and angry about our point of view might be in the majority right now, but your not going to be around much longer, and as I said in an earlier post, it will be the younger generations now and in the future that will be the instruments of positive change. They will be the ones who clean up the mess that the older folks who are crystallized in their thinking are making - the environment as well as all the other ills that are threatening to destroy the planet - a huge and onerous undertaking. 

If someone wants to have the opinion that proponents of animal welfare and eating vegetarian are on are high horses, go right ahead.   Think only of yourselves while you gnaw away at your bones and chops, and if you feel even slightly uncomfortable about it, then my job is done.


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## IKE (May 20, 2016)

I'm extremely doubtful if there are any meat eaters on the forum that will switch to being vegetarians (I certainly won't ) by following this thread nor will any vegetarians switch to becoming meat eaters so I've come to the personal conclusion that I / we are wasting our time and our bickering back and forth is for naught.

*at the risk of being accused of mocking*......Now if you will excuse me I'm being called for supper and yes meat will definitely be involved just as it was for breakfast this morning.

As far as I'm concerned the vegans on board may now have the last word on the meat vs no meat subject.......I'm done.


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## Ruthanne (May 20, 2016)

IKE said:


> I'm extremely doubtful if there are any meat eaters on the forum that will switch to being vegetarians (I certainly won't ) by following this thread nor will any vegetarians switch to becoming meat eaters so I've come to the personal conclusion that I / we are wasting our time and our bickering back and forth is for naught.
> 
> *at the risk of being accused of mocking*......Now if you will excuse me I'm being called for supper and yes meat will definitely be involved just as it was for breakfast this morning.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned the vegans on board may now have the last word on the meat vs no meat subject.......I'm done.


When seeds are planted one never knows when they will grow.


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## Cookie (May 23, 2016)

Not resurrecting this thread per se, but thought this would be a good place for this link:

Meat Free Monday

http://www.meatfreemondays.com/


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## Ruthanne (May 23, 2016)

Thanks for the link Cookie.


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