# California fires



## Don M. (Sep 8, 2020)

I've been a bit concerned about the fires in California, since I have some relatives living there.  This morning I got an e-mail response from a Cousin who lives in San Jose, and they are real close to a huge fire, just a few miles east.  They have lost power a couple of times in recent days....2 or 3 hours at a time, and the smoke is increasing substantially.  They are having to wear CV masks even in their own neighborhood.  The winds are coming towards them, with little chance of rain, or lower temperatures.  And....fire season is just starting out there.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

These fires are all over the west.  Oregon and Washington are having them too.  A bunch of them popped up overnight.  Malden, Washington had lost 82 percent of it's buildings when I read about it this morning.  The whole west coast and inland are under extreme fire danger, have high winds and extreme temperatures with low humidity.  I live in Oregon and a red sun greeted me this morning.  The fires are human caused.  We have had no thunder storms.  Many of them started because the Labor Day crowd went camping and were not careful enough.  In Eugene, Oregon the air is thick with smoke.  I saw it on the news this morning.  They said Covid masks will not help with the smoke particles.  It's not quite as bad where I am.  I'm compiling a list of things we need to load into the car if we have to evacuate all of a sudden.   There are no fires here, but that could change instantly.  The wind can blow the tree limbs against power lines and fires start that way.  In some places they turned off the power because of the danger.


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## RadishRose (Sep 8, 2020)

May there be no casualties!

I heard on a CBS affiliate one fire in CA was caused by an idiot lighting fireworks at a gender reveal party.


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## Don M. (Sep 8, 2020)

Crazy weather out west.  I spoke to my Sister in Denver an hour ago, and they are under a Snow Advisory with temperatures hovering in the mid 30's.  Yesterday, she said it was 90.  At least the snow will pretty much dampen the wildfires they are seeing in Colorado.


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## gennie (Sep 8, 2020)

Maybe Mother Nature does not like what we have done to her planet.


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## Lethe200 (Sep 8, 2020)

In CA the majority of wildfires this summer were caused by dry lightning storms; e.g., no measurable rain, but thunder and lightning. *In a single day - Aug 17, 2020 - CA saw 9,000 lightning strikes. *Only one major wildfire is confirmed to be caused by human error so far. 

Although in total for 2020 there have been 7560 fire incidents, this includes smaller brush/grass fires that are handled by local fire departments. Of this total, there are 10 major wildfires being fought by CalFire, the state's wildfire force. These are the ones national media highlight.

So far a total of 8 people have died as of Sept 8th, although thousands of structures, almost all in the WUI, have burned.

=====

Per a WashPost article, "....the five-year average for the month of August is 30,089 cloud-to-ground strokes across the state. Yet for the Aug. 15 to 19 period for 2020, there were *20,203 cloud-to-ground strokes statewide*, meaning that more than half the month’s typical lightning total occurred in just four days. 

"...According to CalFire, since Aug. 15 there have been more than 700 new wildfire starts in California, which together have burned more than 1.32 million acres. This is larger than the state of Delaware.  "

Since WashPost is subscriber only, here's a link to a free NBC News article (back from Aug 23, 20202) that talks about the dry lightning danger:  Northern California braces for more dry lightning  

=====

Note that this is the *beginning of our fire season.* We get our rains normally in late Oct/early November, but in bad drought years they may not arrive until Dec/Jan, which adds to fire danger. 

I live in the urban San Francisco Bay Area, in the north-eastern part. Relatively low fire danger. Air Quality Index (AQI) has only reached Unhealthy (for all) levels briefly - maybe once so far, and only for a day. It has reached Unhealthy (for sensitive groups) a number of times, however. Over the last week it has been Moderate, with the smell of smoke only in some areas, depending on the wind direction. 

People in the San Jose/Gilroy area are suffering more from high particulate index as they are much closer to the CZU fire, the Monterey/Santa Cruz complex (what multiple wildfires in a grouped area are called, even if they have not merged into one fire yet) wildfire.

The heat is easing in Northern CA, but wind and fire danger will ramp up briefly tonight (Tues) thru Wed a.m. We have not smelled smoke for over a week, but as of 2p today it began to make itself evident again - still faint, but noticeable.

The three major wildfires around Northern CA are being contained and all evacuees are now allowed back in to assess any damages.

Unfortunately, the heat and larger areas of WUI (wildland urban interface) suburbs built in fire-prone areas of Southern CA means the danger to people and structures is substantially greater than in less-populated Northern CA.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

gennie said:


> Maybe Mother Nature does not like what we have done to her planet.


Guaranteed.  We brought it on ourselves.  And some are still in denial about that.  


Don M. said:


> Crazy weather out west.  I spoke to my Sister in Denver an hour ago, and they are under a Snow Advisory with temperatures hovering in the mid 30's.  Yesterday, she said it was 90.  At least the snow will pretty much dampen the wildfires they are seeing in Colorado.


It's going to hit Wyoming as well.  We are compiling a list of all the things we need to take with us, if we suddenly have to evacuate here.  It's so smokey that the sky is amber and spooky looking.


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## Nathan (Sep 8, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> May there be no casualties!
> 
> I heard on a CBS affiliate one fire in CA was caused by an idiot lighting fireworks at a gender reveal party.



Yes, that is the El Dorado fire, in Forrest Falls, Yucaipa area.   My step daughter & our SIL had to evacuate over the weekend, they are now back at home.
Another fire, the Bobcat fire  in the San Gabriel mountain foothill communities  of Duarte, Monrovia has my _fake cousin in law_*** packed and waiting for evacuation orders.

Here in the High Desert near Wrightwood the smoke has been thick, Sunday was definitely unhealthy to be outdoors.    Today is better, and actually about 15 degrees cooler.

***fake cousin in law- actually a long time friend of the family, my SIL's parent's best friends daughter.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

Each year it gets worse because we are getting less and less of our normal rain.  I could list all the fires in Oregon and Washington and provide links, but that would take longer than I want to bother with.  It's just bad.  So many are losing all they have.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 8, 2020)

My DIL just sent me this. They live in OR and they are surrounded by fires, they are the little blue dot.
I'm so worried for them.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

Yes, there are fires everywhere.  Thanks for the map.  Governor Brown has declared a state of emergency.  She was to talk to us about it today at 3, but I could not find her on my local stations.  I guess I have to wait for the news at 5.  Where I am the smoke is everywhere.  The air out from my window is turning more and more amber.  It was supposed to get to be 95 today.  We are at 78 now.  The smoke is blocking the worst of the heat here at least, and the wind  is calm.


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## RadishRose (Sep 8, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Yes, that is the El Dorado fire, in Forrest Falls, Yucaipa area.   My step daughter & our SIL had to evacuate over the weekend, they are now back at home.
> Another fire, the Bobcat fire  in the San Gabriel mountain foothill communities  of Duarte, Monrovia has my _fake cousin in law_*** packed and waiting for evacuation orders.
> 
> Here in the High Desert near Wrightwood the smoke has been thick, Sunday was definitely unhealthy to be outdoors.    Today is better, and actually about 15 degrees cooler.
> ...


I hope your step daughter and SIL didn't have a lot of damage!


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## RadishRose (Sep 8, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> View attachment 121592
> 
> My DIL just sent me this. They live in OR and they are surrounded by fires, they are the little blue dot.
> I'm so worried for them.


Will they evacuate???


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

In Washington 200 people had to be evacuated by helicopter.  The fire just moved in way too fast for them to evacuate. We sure could use all the excess rain the east has been getting.


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## PamfromTx (Sep 8, 2020)

Prayers for all of those who are affected by these fires.

I have relatives in Portland, Oregon, San Jose, California and Fairhaven, Washington.


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## Nathan (Sep 8, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> I hope your step daughter and SIL didn't have a lot of damage!


Thank you!  No damage, surrounding homes OK too. These hillside neighborhoods are so vulnerable, a firestorm can sweep through and level everything in the blink of an eye.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

What we need is a deluge of rain.  Could any of the Native Americans here do their rain dances?  I'd be glad to learn how.


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## HazyDavey (Sep 8, 2020)

High north winds today with a humidity of 15 percent at 5:00am this morning. Smoke and ash has been here for days and outside has the smell of burning oak leaves. Lately I've been really craving for a barbecued steak so Friday I'm going for it, mask and all..


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## Becky1951 (Sep 8, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Will they evacuate???



If they get a notice to they will. They have all important papers, clothes etc ready to go.


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## bowmore (Sep 8, 2020)

We had ours last year. The mountain about 4 miles from us was on fire. We had to evacuate for one night. These photos were taken from our porch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Fire


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 8, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> May there be no casualties!
> 
> I heard on a CBS affiliate one fire in CA was caused by an idiot lighting fireworks at a gender reveal party.


What is a gender reveal party?  Is this about whether a baby is a boy or girl?


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 8, 2020)

Grew up in California, first the fires, then the rain, then the mud slides.  Year after year.


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## Mrs. Robinson (Sep 8, 2020)

This is the small town of Willits,just north of us. This was at 2:30 this afternoon. Within 20 minutes of taking this pic,the sky turned completely black and it looked like it was midnight...My daughter and granddaughter were there yesterday when this fire started and got through right before they closed the highway.


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## Jules (Sep 8, 2020)

It’s a horrid situation.  Thanks for all the on-the-ground reporting.  Be safe everyone.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

It's been so dark here today from the smoke and the orange sky that the wild turkeys went up to roost two hours early.   It's feels like we are on an alien world.


Aneeda72 said:


> What is a gender reveal party?  Is this about whether a baby is a boy or girl?


Yes.  They can be similar to baby showers of old, but more people get involved.  At least that's what I surmised from what I read on Wikepedia.


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## asp3 (Sep 8, 2020)

I'm in San Jose and the last four days have been some of the best air quality we've had in weeks.  San Jose is a fairly large city so what's happening in my area might not be happening in another area of the city.

The worst air quality we had was about three weeks ago for about a week.  I wasn't even walking the dogs on those days.  After that sometimes it was decent in the morning then got bad again around noon.  Other days it was smoky in the morning and then cleared up in the late afternoon and early evening.  It all depended on the direction of the prevailing winds.

Most of our fires are grass fires because as Lethe200 alluded to we generally don't get much if any rainfall between May and mid October.  The grass grows after the winter rains and then dries out quickly.


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## Keesha (Sep 8, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> This is the small town of Willits,just north of us. This was at 2:30 this afternoon. Within 20 minutes of taking this pic,the sky turned completely black and it looked like it was midnight...My daughter and granddaughter were there yesterday when this fire started and got through right before they closed the highway.
> 
> View attachment 121606


When I saw this I didn’t know what to say. Three time’s I wrote something  only to erase it.
Stay safe. I am thinking of you all out there.


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## Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I'm in San Jose and the last four days have been some of the best air quality we've had in weeks.  San Jose is a fairly large city so what's happening in my area might not be happening in another area of the city.
> 
> The worst air quality we had was about three weeks ago for about a week.  I wasn't even walking the dogs on those days.  After that sometimes it was decent in the morning then got bad again around noon.  Other days it was smoky in the morning and then cleared up in the late afternoon and early evening.  It all depended on the direction of the prevailing winds.
> 
> Most of our fires are grass fires because as Lethe200 alluded to we generally don't get much if any rainfall between May and mid October.  The grass grows after the winter rains and then dries out quickly.


Are you and  yours okay?


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## asp3 (Sep 8, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Are you and  yours okay?



Yes, we're fine thank you.  The closest evacuation area to us was about five miles to the east of us, but that is at the base of the foothills.  The foothills are very sparsely populated and have a lot of open space with lots of grass, bushes and some trees.

I'm fairly sure that the evacuation area was cancelled one or two weeks ago but I'm not 100% sure.


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## RadishRose (Sep 8, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> This is the small town of Willits,just north of us. This was at 2:30 this afternoon. Within 20 minutes of taking this pic,the sky turned completely black and it looked like it was midnight...My daughter and granddaughter were there yesterday when this fire started and got through right before they closed the highway.
> 
> View attachment 121606


This seems like a diabolical and un-nerving, weird, carnival-like entrance into Hell!     Thank goodness they got out!


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## deesierra (Sep 8, 2020)

Grew up in CA. Still close to there in No. NV. I have many friends that are being affected by these overwhelming fires all over CA. My prayers to them, and to the brave and dedicated firefighters and their families. They are all heroes. God bless.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 9, 2020)

Yes, the firefighters are heroes and so brave.

We have smoke from the fires here but no ash.  When Yellowstone burned we were covered in ash.  Fires are so horrific.  You have to wonder, with all that is happening, if it is the predicted ”end of days” that is being previewed.

I remember the signs we would always see in Los Angeles, held up street people, when we went downtown to the movies.  “Repent the end is near”.  Makes you wonder.


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## fmdog44 (Sep 9, 2020)

Curious about what steps are taken to help restore the acres burned. I know fires are good for regrowth but what does the forest service do to assist?


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## asp3 (Sep 9, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Curious about what steps are taken to help restore the acres burned. I know fires are good for regrowth but what does the forest service do to assist?



I'm not sure what is being done in the areas that have burned recently but the forest that burned in Yosemite years back and then a few years later is basically being left to recover by itself.  Although I really miss the forests around Yosemite the way they were years ago it is interesting to go back every year and see the forest slowly recovering.

What many people don't realize is that fires are a natural part of the lifespan of a forest.  The problem is that our fire suppression activities have allowed the amount of unburned, fuel rich forest much higher so that when a fire does start it's easier for it to keep burning because there is so much land that will easily burn.  What we need are more prescribed burns for a number of years.


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## asp3 (Sep 9, 2020)

We have some interesting sky this morning in San Jose and had it yesterday morning as well, however this morning it's more pronounced.  The lighting in the area is very yellow this morning however there is little or no noticeable smoke smell.  I read about it yesterday and evidently the marine layer is coming in under the smoke from fires up north making our skies yellow without having smoke in the air we're breathing.

For a great description of what the marine layer is check out the Wikipedia entry for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_layer .


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## Don M. (Sep 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> What we need are more prescribed burns for a number of years.



For centuries, when the Native American Indians occupied the forests, they instituted "controlled burns", which kept the dried vegetation and underbrush from sparking into uncontrolled forest fires.  Then, when European ancestry settlers began to populate the western states, the governments banned these fires.  As a result, the forests are littered with vegetation that does little other than act as fuel for any fires Nature starts. 

Finally, there appears to be some recognition that the Indians knew far more about sustaining the environment than our politicians, and perhaps there will be movement towards returning to policies that help prevent these annual "tragedies".

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/24/8994...nia-looks-to-what-tribes-have-known-all-along


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## Becky1951 (Sep 9, 2020)

Just heard from my DIL, so far the fire is keeping away from them. She said there are firemen all over town and they have set up shelters and firemen camps, the town of Mill City is gone. So much destruction from all these fires.


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## Phoenix (Sep 9, 2020)

Here in western Oregon this morning the air is thick with smoke.  We can't see the nearby hills.  The deck, covers on the cars and the ground has a dusting of ash like a light snow.  Breathing it in is not something one wants to do.  The orange sky that we saw yesterday afternoon is now just the color of smoke.  We have no wind.  We are about 60 miles from the nearest fire as far as I know.  More fires have been sparked in some areas and some of the smaller ones are merging.  I looked at the local news station online, but their live coverage doesn't start again until 11.  The fire situation in so many places in 9 western states must surely be what people have imagined that hell looks like.  I think that's been mentioned here before.  Supposedly the air will clear out some tomorrow as the wind shifts to a different direction.  Right here we have no wind at the moment.  But we are in the rain shadow so sometimes the worst of things miss us.  Yesterday it was supposed to get to be 95 degrees.  The smoke was so thick that it only got to 82.

I feel so sorry for the wild animals who have no choice but to breath the air.  When I went out to feed some of the wild critters, they seemed disoriented.  They are also eating the ash as they eat grass, seed heads and such which is covered with it.  We provide them water. 

Yesterday my husband and I talked about getting stuck in the fire.  We decided that if someone knocked on our door and told us we had to evacuate immediately and go with them in their vehicles, if we could not take our cat, we would not go. You don't leave your best friends behind.  We decided we have had good long lives, and we could choose to go out with the cat if it came to that.  Some people north of here were evacuated with only what they were wearing.

It's caused me to think more about the end and how to face if calmly.  We all have to face that sooner or later.  Since so many I know have died I've considered it regularly.  This time I plan to make peace with it.



Becky1951 said:


> Just heard from my DIL, so far the fire is keeping away from them. She said there are firemen all over town and they have set up shelters and firemen camps, the town of Mill City is gone. So much destruction from all these fires.


Glad your DIL and family are okay.  Mill City.  Wow.  That was a neat little town in a beautiful area.  I had a friend who was principal of the high school there once upon a time.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 9, 2020)

https://abc17news.com/news/national...ashington-and-weather-conditions-are-no-help/


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## Phoenix (Sep 9, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> https://abc17news.com/news/national...ashington-and-weather-conditions-are-no-help/


Thank you for this.


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## officerripley (Sep 9, 2020)

Northern Calif. here; not too far from the Bear Fire, so we also had an reddish/orange sky and darkness 'till about Noon today; so much ash outside and on the vehicles, looked almost like snow. Have a cousin-in-law who had to evacuate for several days due to the Claremont fire (but didn't lose his house luckily); and now another cousin-in-law (the 1st one's brother) is probably going to have to evacuate due to this Bear fire.


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## Phoenix (Sep 9, 2020)

officerripley said:


> Northern Calif. here; not too far from the Bear Fire, so we also had an reddish/orange sky and darkness 'till about Noon today; so much ash outside and on the vehicles, looked almost like snow. Have a cousin-in-law who had to evacuate for several days due to the Claremont fire (but didn't lose his house luckily); and now another cousin-in-law (the 1st one's brother) is probably going to have to evacuate due to this Bear fire.


It's scary stuff.


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## Ruthanne (Sep 9, 2020)

I have some family out west and I'm worried about them too.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 9, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I'm not sure what is being done in the areas that have burned recently but the forest that burned in Yosemite years back and then a few years later is basically being left to recover by itself.  Although I really miss the forests around Yosemite the way they were years ago it is interesting to go back every year and see the forest slowly recovering.
> 
> What many people don't realize is that fires are a natural part of the lifespan of a forest.  The problem is that our fire suppression activities have allowed the amount of unburned, fuel rich forest much higher so that when a fire does start it's easier for it to keep burning because there is so much land that will easily burn.  What we need are more prescribed burns for a number of years.


Yup, that’s why they let Yellowstone burn, to let the forest regrow


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## Phoenix (Sep 9, 2020)

Here some of it is being left to burn because they don't have the work force to fight all the fires.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 9, 2020)

I hope your relatives will stay safe Don.  I've been seeing images and videos of the fires and they are terrifying to me, so I imagine how utterly terrifying they must be for people surrounded by them.  I feel so bad for those affected. I have a friend who lives in Cali but her area has never had the fires.  However, at the beginning of this latest rash of fires, she told me how bad the air quality is. At that time she said the fires were about 20 miles away.


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## Phoenix (Sep 9, 2020)

One of the things I just realized with all the smoke in the air is that this is what nuclear winter would look like.  The sun would not get through and everything would die off.


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## Pecos (Sep 9, 2020)

My youngest brother had to evacuate his home in Glide Oregon last night. He did get some things loaded into his car before he left, but most of his possessions are still there. When I talked to him this morning he had moved up to Roseburg and was staying with friends, but they are worried that they may have to evacuate from there as well. One of his firefighting friends back in Glide told him that his house was still standing.

My firefighter Grandson has been moved from a fire in his home state of Washington down to Northern California to fight the Red Salmon Fire. I got a text from him a little while ago. He says that the terrain is very steep and the weather is very hot. He had just finished a 24 hour shift.


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## HazyDavey (Sep 10, 2020)

This was taken yesterday around the old neighborhood. Much cooler daytime temps with all the smoke blocking the sun. Ashes coming down like snow. We have all our windows closed and with the much cooler weather, we at least don't have to run our swamp cooler.
Lost my appetite for having some barbecued beef steaks. Think I'll just fry them on the stove..


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## bowmore (Sep 10, 2020)

A gender reveal party started with pink or blue balloons, and then went crazy from there. Fires have started, people killed or injured, and the lady that started it has said,"Enough is enough".
Here is the link:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/07/us/gender-reveal-parties-overview-trnd/index.html


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## Phoenix (Sep 10, 2020)

So many things are causing these fires.  One near Estacada, OR was started by a motor home catching on fire.  The fire spread quickly to a nearby home and nearby brush.  The heat and low humidity and an ongoing drought have created lethal conditions.  And some people are just not careful enough and do stupid things, like the gender party fiasco.  If people had just stayed home instead of going camping for Labor Day it would have helped.

Today I look out my window and can see twice as far as I did yesterday, but I still can't see the nearby hills.  I step outside and the smell of smoke is still awful.  At least this morning at 8 it was 49 degrees instead of 58.  There is no wind.


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## Jules (Sep 10, 2020)

No wind.  That really helps.


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## fmdog44 (Sep 10, 2020)

Crazy pics of the air there now- solid orange.


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## MarciKS (Sep 10, 2020)

i got this out of the ny times this morning. it's san francisco.

and one mother said that there's a heatwave and they have no a/c and they can't open the windows and with the pandemic they can't go anywhere.


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## Phoenix (Sep 10, 2020)

The no east wind is good.  We need a light wind from the west, to clear away the smoke.  As of last night they said the wind from the Pacific is supposed to start sometime this afternoon.  We don't have air conditioning either.  We rarely need it, so it hasn't been worth the investment. We revisit that decision every year.


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## 911 (Sep 10, 2020)

I heard on TV last night that California had an orange sky and that these fires could set a new record for the total number of acres that have been destroyed.


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## Keesha (Sep 10, 2020)

There’s sadness everywhere


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## Phoenix (Sep 10, 2020)

911 said:


> I heard on TV last night that California had an orange sky and that these fires could set a new record for the total number of acres that have been destroyed.


Today we expected the skies to clear up more.  However on this morning's news they said that since the fires have grown larger, there is a larger amount of smoke and ash in the atmosphere.  They still do hope that when the wind shifts direction it will push the fires back on themselves and that will help put them out, since the fuel has already burned there.  But they are now saying our skies here in western Oregon will probably not clear for several more days.  We are supposed to get a little rain starting Monday.  But they don't expect more than .25 of an inch.

One of the neat things is how many people are donating stuff to help out those who have lost everything.  In Springfield, OR cars are lined up and people are unloading their donations at this one local school.  The Red Cross is helping people find shelter and volunteers are helping organize and make available the donations.  I always figure if you donate stuff, rather than money at least you know it doesn't go into the pocket of someone who doesn't need it.  I think a lot of people feel that way since all the major charities have had cases of embezzlement from within.


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## dobielvr (Sep 10, 2020)

Around here, the schools are offering shelter to the animals and the people being displaced by the fires.

A lot of donations are being made, money, bedding, food, snacks....etc.  Everyone is really pulling together to help in anyway needed.  It's heartwarming to see......and yes, i'm doing my part.
Even land offered where people can bring their horses, etc.


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## Jules (Sep 10, 2020)

People really come together in a crisis.


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## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

Jules said:


> People really come together in a crisis.  ❣


Yes.  And one of the neat things is on tv at least everyone is wearing masks as they bring in donations and look for the things they need in what has been donated.  The entire county I am in is still under a level 1 evacuation notice.


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## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

There is honest to God fog here today.  When I went out to feed the critters I only smelled a little smoke.  The visibility is low, but the air does not look brownish like it has been.  Now, they are not reporting this on the news, so the fog must be spotty.  One news station is 40 miles away and several others are 60.  The leaves on the bushes are a little glisteny.  I'm anxious to see if the fog lifts, or if it will be this way all day.  It was 48 degrees at 7:45 am.  Yesterday it only got to 68 here.  That was because of the smoke.  The weather forecast does not take the smoke into account.  Their computer models don't know from smoke, I guess.  Grin.


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## Ruthanne (Sep 11, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> One of the things I just realized with all the smoke in the air is that this is what nuclear winter would look like.  The sun would not get through and everything would die off.


Makes me wonder if we'd ever be able to see a nuclear winter...we probably wouldn't make it through a nuclear episode imo.


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## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> Makes me wonder if we'd ever be able to see a nuclear winter...we probably wouldn't make it through a nuclear episode imo.


It would depend on where the bombs went off.  If they went off in Africa for example we would not be killed immediately.


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## Ruthanne (Sep 11, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> It would depend on where the bombs went off.  If they went off in Africa for example we would not be killed immediately.


I see your point.  I guess I was thinking of a nuclear bomb pointed at the USA.


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## Autumn (Sep 11, 2020)

I got an update this morning from a dear friend who lives in Berkeley, CA.  He says the air is very bad, and he's confined to home because he has COPD and it isn't safe for him to go out.  It just seems to get worse, I feel so bad for all the people affected and for the firefighters especially.  It takes a special kind of person to do that job.


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## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> I see your point.  I guess I was thinking of a nuclear bomb pointed at the USA.


Okay, let's say it hit LA.  That area would be wipe out.  But in NY it would take a while for the effect to hit.  If there was only one bomb, most of those on the planet would survive it.  If there were bombs all over the planet, we would be wiped out, either immediately or because of nuclear winter. 


Autumn said:


> I got an update this morning from a dear friend who lives in Berkeley, CA.  He says the air is very bad, and he's confined to home because he has COPD and it isn't safe for him to go out.  It just seems to get worse, I feel so bad for all the people affected and for the firefighters especially.  It takes a special kind of person to do that job.


I hope your friend will be okay.  The fires are growing.  There aren't enough people to fight them.  They explode into larger fires over night sometimes.  One fire I heard of was consuming one thousand acres per half hour.


----------



## Ruthanne (Sep 11, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Okay, let's say it hit LA.  That area would be wipe out.  But in NY it would take a while for the effect to hit.  If there was only one bomb, most of those on the planet would survive it.  If there were bombs all over the planet, we would be wiped out, either immediately or because of nuclear winter.
> 
> I hope your friend will be okay.  The fires are growing.  There aren't enough people to fight them.  They explode into larger fires over night sometimes.  One fire I heard of was consuming one thousand acres per half hour.


But how do you *know* the strength of a Nuclear Bomb?  I would think some of them could wipe out an entire country.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> But how do you *know* the strength of a Nuclear Bomb?  I would think some of them could wipe out an entire country.


They know based on how much explosive material is in each one.  They know because of what happened in WWII in Japan.  It's based on scientific fact.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> But how do you *know* the strength of a Nuclear Bomb?  I would think some of them could wipe out an entire country.


We have military intelligence who knows that kind of stuff.  They are spies and have checked it out.


----------



## fmdog44 (Sep 11, 2020)

Millions of people will suffer heart and respiratory issues long after this crisis is over. Think of children's lungs. Bad news all around.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Millions of people will suffer heart and respiratory issues long after this crisis is over. Think of children's lungs. Bad news all around.


Yes, it's bad.  I also think of the wild animals burned alive and the ones who have to breathe the stuff.  It's horrendous.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 11, 2020)

*'We have never seen this': 10% of Oregon under evacuation orders; death toll at 26 from Western wildfires*
26 dead in Wash, Oregon and California


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 19, 2020)

We've had 1.3 inches of rain in the Oregon Coast Range in the last 36 hours.  The skies are clear.  The fires are still raging, but the rain helped some.


----------



## dobielvr (Sep 19, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> We've had 1.3 inches of rain in the Oregon Coast Range in the last 36 hours.  The skies are clear.  The fires are still raging, but the rain helped some.



Wow...that's great news!!


----------



## asp3 (Sep 19, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> But how do you *know* the strength of a Nuclear Bomb?  I would think some of them could wipe out an entire country.



I used to read a lot about nuclear weapons in Scientific American and there are no bombs that could wipe out an entire country unless you're talking about Luxembourg or something that size.

Here's an article about the largest atomic bomb every tested which was a 50 megaton bomb.  It supposedly could have been 100 megatons but the fallout would have been too dangerous.  It wiped a village 34 miles away from where it expolded off the face of the earth and damaged buildings up to 100 miles away from where it exploded.  So a 100 megaton bomb would have damaged buildings up to 141 miles away.  (Not double because force is related to the square root of the distance not linear.)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tsar-Bomba


----------



## asp3 (Sep 22, 2020)

Here's a great article about the known and unknown dangers of the smoke that those of the west coast have been exposed to over the last few weeks.  The air quality here has been good for almost a week now, but was fairly bad here for a while.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wildfire-smoke-health-risks-air-quality-pollution


----------



## Don M. (Sep 22, 2020)

With these wildfires expected to last for several more weeks, I'm sure that a lot of people on the West Coast will experience lasting and long term effects from breathing this stuff.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 22, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Here's a great article about the known and unknown dangers of the smoke that those of the west coast have been exposed to over the last few weeks.  The air quality here has been good for almost a week now, but was fairly bad here for a while.
> 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wildfire-smoke-health-risks-air-quality-pollution


Thank you for this.  Where I am the sky is mostly free of smoke at the moment.  The wind came in from the west last night and cleared it out, again.  It is forecasted we will get some rain tomorrow.  We'll see how much.  My husband and I have managed to stay mostly inside when the air has been thick with smoke.  They say don't go out at all when it's bad, but that's not reasonable.  There are things a person has to do.  Trouble is, since the fires are still burning as strong as ever, if the smoke clears from here, it goes somewhere else and damages others.  Thankfully the hot temperatures are gone.  Knock on wood.  I worry about the wildlife.


----------



## macgeek (Sep 22, 2020)

gennie said:


> Maybe Mother Nature does not like what we have done to her planet.



people settings fires on purpose don't help. And CA is not letting anyone clear brush (to prevent fires), they stopped most removal of trees (even dead trees)... and their not updating old power equipment/lines which also causes lots of fires. bad environmental regulations are to blame for much of the fires. Of course you won't hear most of the news mention that.

CA is the only state in the USA denying residents power on purpose... Not some third world country, but CA....


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 22, 2020)

*California firefighters make stand to save famed observatory, homes  **(Mt. Wilson)*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wildfires-idUSKCN26D30J


----------



## Jules (Sep 22, 2020)

Glad they’re keeping the observatory safe.  Sad that the fires are still raging.


----------



## dobielvr (Sep 23, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Thank you for this.  Where I am the sky is mostly free of smoke at the moment.  The wind came in from the west last night and cleared it out, again.  It is forecasted we will get some rain tomorrow.  We'll see how much.  My husband and I have managed to stay mostly inside when the air has been thick with smoke.  They say don't go out at all when it's bad, but that's not reasonable.  There are things a person has to do.  Trouble is, since the fires are still burning as strong as ever, if the smoke clears from here, it goes somewhere else and damages others.  Thankfully the hot temperatures are gone.  Knock on wood.  I worry about the wildlife.



Yes, I also noticed the skies had cleared up some.  Havnt heard abt any rain yet coming this way.

But, like you said..we must go outside for some things, so thank goodness for our masks!


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 23, 2020)

dobielvr said:


> Yes, I also noticed the skies had cleared up some.  Havnt heard abt any rain yet coming this way.
> 
> But, like you said..we must go outside for some things, so thank goodness for our masks!


Unfortunately the rain doesn't seem to be going to CA.  The regular masks used for Covid don't filter out the dangerous smoke particulates.  Only the 95 mask do that, and they need to be saved for the medical and emergency folks who are working to treat us.


----------



## dobielvr (Sep 23, 2020)

Thanks, I did not know that...^^^^


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 25, 2020)

Sept. 25, 2020
*Here’s where major California wildfires are still burning ahead of windy weekend*
https://news.yahoo.com/where-major-california-wildfires-still-174756235.html


----------



## Pecos (Sep 25, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Here's a great article about the known and unknown dangers of the smoke that those of the west coast have been exposed to over the last few weeks.  The air quality here has been good for almost a week now, but was fairly bad here for a while.
> 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/wildfire-smoke-health-risks-air-quality-pollution


Thank you, that post is is very informative and useful. I will be resending it to family members on the West Coast. I also looked at the AQI for my area of South Carolina, and that will be potentially useful to me because we do have periodic controlled burns in this area.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 25, 2020)

Pecos said:


> Thank you, that post is is very informative and useful. I will be resending it to family members on the West Coast. I also looked at the AQI for my area of South Carolina, and that will be potentially useful to me because we do have periodic controlled burns in this area.


After our upcoming rain here in Oregon today and tomorrow, it's supposed to heat up again and the smoke is forecasted to get bad again.


----------



## officerripley (Sep 25, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> After our upcoming rain here in Oregon today and tomorrow, it's supposed to heat up again and the smoke is forecasted to get bad again.


Same here except we didn't get any rain, sigh.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 25, 2020)

officerripley said:


> Same here except we didn't get any rain, sigh.


It's gotta be awful for you. Where I am we aren't getting a lot, but it's better than nothing.  In the Cascades and foothills where the fires are the worst the rain is forecast to be heavier.  Where is Porlock?


----------



## officerripley (Sep 25, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> It's gotta be awful for you. Where I am we aren't getting a lot, but it's better than nothing.  In the Cascades and foothills where the fires are the worst the rain is forecast to be heavier.  Where is Porlock?


I'm about 2 hours north of Sacramento. Wish we would get some rain; it's supposed to be close to 100 again this Sunday, sigh.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 26, 2020)

officerripley said:


> I'm about 2 hours north of Sacramento. Wish we would get some rain; it's supposed to be close to 100 again this Sunday, sigh.


It's raining lightly here now and 60 degrees.  The rain amounts where I am are low, but it's better than nothing.  Thankfully more fell in the areas of some of the fires.  How awful for you.  How thick is the smoke?  How far is the fire from you?  Tuesday it's supposed to be back to 90 here.  I'd just like to turn the faucet on the entire west coast.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Sep 26, 2020)

I confess I'm not up on the fires. Is the same areas burning year after year? Or is it totally other areas? I don't want to seem insensitive, but is living in a fire zone equivalent to living in a flood plain?  I see the horrific devastation, and the sheer terror of living through a fire, but is it worth it to rebuild in a fire zone?


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 26, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I confess I'm not up on the fires. Is the same areas burning year after year? Or is it totally other areas? I don't want to seem insensitive, but is living in a fire zone equivalent to living in a flood plain?  I see the horrific devastation, and the sheer terror of living through a fire, but is it worth it to rebuild in a fire zone?


This is radically worse than it has ever been.  Yes, there are always some fires.  But nothing like this.  This is a direct result of climate change.  There is less and less rain every year.  More and more of the forests and the brush lands are drying out.  Here in Oregon alone, where I live, each year we are at least 20 inches below normal and have been for at least 20 years.  It gets worse every year.  With a flood the rains come, flood everything and stop, and the people work on recovering.  These fires go on for months and burn everything in their paths.  There are never enough fire fighters and equipment.  It's not lack of planning.  A lot of the terrain is steep and rugged wilderness.  That's hard to fight.  This year for example a good deal of the time they couldn't drop water or retardant on the fires because the smoke was so thick they couldn't see the fires from above. 

There is research being done to help with that, but it takes time.  We don't have time.  There are never enough resources.  Some of these fires are purposely set by humans.  Some are caused by lightening.  They were made worse this year when the weather got unseasonably hot and there were high winds.  If you read back over some of the articles that are here in this thread, you can find out some of the information.  Some of the stuff included here is by naysayers, but the fires are now consuming whole towns.  Last year only one town burned down in northern CA.  The name of that town was Paradise.  This year Oregon and CA have lost towns.

To get out of the firezone people would have to move out of CA entirely.  In Oregon, a lot of the fires are in areas that used to be rain forest.  We are at fault, all of us worldwide.  The jet stream that brings us our weather and the gulf stream the delivers the ocean currents up the east coast have changed because of the CO2 in the atmosphere caused by our recklessness and denial.  Since everything everywhere is warming up the weather in all areas is radically worse.  We'd have to move to another planet to get away from all this.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 26, 2020)

From  _*The Atlantic*_
Sept. 14, 2020
These places are throughout the state.  I used to live near one of them.

*Photos: Oregon Communities Devastated by Wildfires*
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2020/09/photos-oregon-communities-devastated-wildfires/616344/


----------



## officerripley (Sep 26, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I confess I'm not up on the fires. Is the same areas burning year after year? Or is it totally other areas? I don't want to seem insensitive, but is living in a fire zone equivalent to living in a flood plain?  I see the horrific devastation, and the sheer terror of living through a fire, but is it worth it to rebuild in a fire zone?


It is the same areas burning year after year *but* with more & more areas added every year. I suppose that living in a fire zone could be judged to be equivalent to living in a flood plain if you realize that just as a lot of people who live in the flood plain, those who live in a fire area (and what has recently *become* a fire area) simply cannot afford (economically or family-situation--elderly parents, etc.--wise) to move in too many cases. 

For ex.: when the 2018 Paradise, CA Camp Fire happened, 11,000 homes (along with businesses) burned with that adding up to 50,000 people (6 of whom are family members of mine) being displaced. Only about 5,000 have wanted/been able to return. And since a lot of those 50,000 worked in Paradise itself or nearby towns, and since some retirees/non-working were living there to be near family, many have not been able to afford to leave, either Paradise itself or the nearby towns. Sure, you could maybe find a bottom of the barrel apt. in a town as much as 2 hours away but then lots of these people (again, some of them fam. members of mine) couldn't afford to pay for that 4 hr/day commute. So. Since some of those 50,000 found out how expensive rents, home prices were in this nearby town, some found it cheaper to live in RVs, vans, cars on the lot where their house was.

So sometimes, for various reasons, people just can't move unless they're willing to live on the streets or abandon an elderly fam. member. They can't.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 26, 2020)

One of the problems with so many people living in CA is that it's a desert with the people who live there creating artificially green environments with water from somewhere else.  The Colorado River is no longer what it once was because the water supports a lot of CA, especially southern CA. Tell you what, with the climate change what are they going to do when the Colorado dries up completely?  My friend near San Diego said that when they had the opportunity to get water from the ocean through a new desalinization plant, they didn't and invested instead in a system that would not work, long term.

If they can build pipelines to bring oil from all over the place, they can build a system to collect the water from the excessive flooding and redirect it to the places that need it. 

We wise up or we perish.  It's our choice.


----------



## oldman (Sep 27, 2020)

I continue to pray for the firefighters. They have to be really tired.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 27, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> One of the problems with so many people living in CA is that it's a desert with the people who live there creating artificially green environments with water from somewhere else.  The Colorado River is no longer what it once was because the water supports a lot of CA, especially southern CA. Tell you what, with the climate change what are they going to do when the Colorado dries up completely?  My friend near San Diego said that when they had the opportunity to get water from the ocean through a new desalinization plant, they didn't and invested instead in a system that would not work, long term.



Yes, the Colorado River "basin" is facing more and more stress.  Lake Powell is little more than a pond, and Lake Mead is slowly being depleted.  A couple of years of minimal snowfall in the Rockies could quickly become a problem for the entire desert SW.  As it stands now, hardly any water finds it way into the Gulf of Mexico.  The aquifer that has fed Phoenix, for decades, is being depleted, and that will add substantially to the issue.   

If weather patterns continue the present trends, water will become the "new gold" in the SW, while the Midwest and Eastern states have excessive amounts of rainfall.  A pipeline from the Mississippi or Missouri rivers to the SW would be an expensive proposition, but it may be the Only solution to maintaining the SW populations.


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## Uptosnuff (Sep 27, 2020)

Don M. said:


> If weather patterns continue the present trends, water will become the "new gold" in the SW, while the Midwest and Eastern states have excessive amounts of rainfall. A pipeline from the Mississippi or Missouri rivers to the SW would be an expensive proposition, but it may be the Only solution to maintaining the SW populations



Maybe it's time to rethink having all this population in the SW and west coast.  A lot of that land and ecosystem is fragile and we are overwhelming it with people.  I know people won't like this but I think the time has come to consider designating more of that area as natural resource and prohibiting people living there.  People have demonstrated they are not good stewards of the land.

Piping in water from other areas of the country would just encourage the type of bad eco-system management that has led to the current problem.  Besides, the Rocky Mountains are in the way.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

Don M. said:


> A pipeline from the Mississippi or Missouri rivers to the SW would be an expensive proposition, but it may be the Only solution to maintaining the SW populations.


It's expensive to build oil pipelines and they do it anyway.


Uptosnuff said:


> Maybe it's time to rethink having all this population in the SW and west coast.  A lot of that land and ecosystem is fragile and we are overwhelming it with people.  I know people won't like this but I think the time has come to consider designating more of that area as natural resource and prohibiting people living there.  People have demonstrated they are not good stewards of the land.
> 
> Piping in water from other areas of the country would just encourage the type of bad eco-system management that has led to the current problem.  Besides, the Rocky Mountains are in the way.


All ecosystems are fragile.  True we are not good stewards, but that is true everywhere.  What we needed to do was stop overpopulating the planet.  I'm talking about piping the water in from the floods, that way the areas that have too much water benefit and the areas that don't have enough benefit.  The bottom line issue is the climate change.


----------



## officerripley (Sep 27, 2020)

Uptosnuff said:


> Maybe it's time to rethink having all this population in the SW and west coast.  A lot of that land and ecosystem is fragile and we are overwhelming it with people.  I know people won't like this but I think the time has come to consider designating more of that area as natural resource and prohibiting people living there.  People have demonstrated they are not good stewards of the land.
> 
> Piping in water from other areas of the country would just encourage the type of bad eco-system management that has led to the current problem.  Besides, the Rocky Mountains are in the way.


You make excellent points. However as to rethinking having all the SW population, where would we go? A lot of the population in other areas than the SW (some of whom I've actually spoken to about this) detest the idea of having "a bunch of darn SWers--espec. those !@#$% Californians--dumped" on them. Heck, even when people are just idly talking about moving: another site I was on, somebody started a thread about "if you could move to anywhere in the U.S., where would it be"; somebody posted the reply of "Calif. if it weren't for the fire danger." Some guy posted "the probl. with Calif. is not the fire danger, it's all the darn weirdos who live there, they oughta be made to leave." I thought to myself, "Well now, settle down; maybe he's just kidding." So I replied back, "Well where do you think this old, 3rd-generation, native Californian, and all the other Californians should go? Could we move to your area, maybe?" And he replies back, "No! I'm thinking you all should go to Mexico or South America!"

So seriously, where are we--and other unwanted populations all over the world--supposed to go? Where? (Yeah, yeah, I know: some people just want us to not exist, period.)


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

All of us just need to think about what we can do individually to help undo the damage we have all done to the planet and then start doing that.  Blame is easy to assign if we assign it to someone else.  It solves nothing.  We need compassion, understanding, a willingness to follow the science and a lot of guts and elbow grease.  We need it now.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 27, 2020)

These forest fires, hurricanes, floods and droughts, etc.....coupled with global warming and rising oceans....are all signs that our planet is changing.  Couple the environmental changes with unchecked population growth, and we are seeing the early signs of substantial challenges future generations will have to cope with.    

Humans have chosen to ignore the basic rules of "supply and demand", and this Will eventually catch up with Everyone.


----------



## Liberty (Sep 27, 2020)

And then there was the year that had no spring or summer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

Liberty said:


> And then there was the year that had no spring or summer:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer


What we are heading into now will be permanent.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

September 27, 2020
*Napa County fire with ‘dangerous rate of spread’ forces evacuations    *


https://www.latimes.com/california/...county-northern-california-faces-fire-weather


----------



## Mrs. Robinson (Sep 27, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> September 27, 2020
> *Napa County fire with ‘dangerous rate of spread’ forces evacuations    *
> 
> 
> https://www.latimes.com/california/...county-northern-california-faces-fire-weather



Yep-another new one today in the Napa valley. Same area that burned a month ago. Hospital being evacuated right now. Our county has been doing well this year but knowing that could change at any second is really nervewracking....


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> Yep-another new one today in the Napa valley. Same area that burned a month ago. Hospital being evacuated right now. Our county has been doing well this year but knowing that could change at any second is really nervewracking....


I didn't realize it was the same area, although I knew the one a month ago was in the Napa Valley.  It must be so hard for you.  Have any of the vineyards burned?


----------



## Mrs. Robinson (Sep 27, 2020)

Yes,same general area.

As far as vineyards,they seem to do very well in these fires-I`m thinking because they turn on the sprinklers to save them.BUT we were noticing the other day that there are lots of vines that look "parched",like maybe the grapes are so smoke damaged that they aren`t even bothering.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> Yes,same general area.
> 
> As far as vineyards,they seem to do very well in these fires-I`m thinking because they turn on the sprinklers to save them.BUT we were noticing the other day that there are lots of vines that look "parched",like maybe the grapes are so smoke damaged that they aren`t even bothering.


Interesting.


----------



## tbeltrans (Sep 27, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> Yes,same general area.
> 
> As far as vineyards,they seem to do very well in these fires-I`m thinking because they turn on the sprinklers to save them.BUT we were noticing the other day that there are lots of vines that look "parched",like maybe the grapes are so smoke damaged that they aren`t even bothering.



At a wine tasting...this wine is special, it has a nice smoky aromatic quality to it. 

Always look for the silver lining. 

Tony


----------



## Mrs. Robinson (Sep 27, 2020)

Yes,that`s what I heard about the fires last year; that the grapes were not negatively affete. Not sure why the vineyards we drove past appeared to be uncared for-unless the grapes had already been harvested. Actually,by now they should have been. I keep thinking it`s still mid-August lol. Only comments I`ve heard about grapes this year is that they are making the mountain roads very slick from the leakage when they are being transported.


----------



## tbeltrans (Sep 27, 2020)

officerripley said:


> You make excellent points. However as to rethinking having all the SW population, where would we go? A lot of the population in other areas than the SW (some of whom I've actually spoken to about this) detest the idea of having "a bunch of darn SWers--espec. those !@#$% Californians--dumped" on them. Heck, even when people are just idly talking about moving: another site I was on, somebody started a thread about "if you could move to anywhere in the U.S., where would it be"; somebody posted the reply of "Calif. if it weren't for the fire danger." Some guy posted "the probl. with Calif. is not the fire danger, it's all the darn weirdos who live there, they oughta be made to leave." I thought to myself, "Well now, settle down; maybe he's just kidding." So I replied back, "Well where do you think this old, 3rd-generation, native Californian, and all the other Californians should go? Could we move to your area, maybe?" And he replies back, "No! I'm thinking you all should go to Mexico or South America!"
> 
> So seriously, where are we--and other unwanted populations all over the world--supposed to go? Where? (Yeah, yeah, I know: some people just want us to not exist, period.)



You can take heart in the fact that it isn't just Californians who seem to be unwanted.  In a forum I no longer inhabit, I had mentioned my concern for the long term viability of living just outside Minneapolis with what has been going on there.  I mentioned considering a move to Idaho or Montana.  I was told in no uncertain terms that "we don't want your kind here".  I don't know what "your kind" is, other than not being from there, since I did live in that part of the country for a time back in the 1970s and got along just fine.

I don't know if the level of hatred has really risen that much in the intervening years, or if there is just a level of bravado when hiding behind a keyboard in a forum instead of talking face to face.

By the way, I sincerely hope that Minneapolis gets its issues sorted out.  It has been a wonderful area for so long and it is sad to see what is happening right now.  The city needs real leadership that is fair to all its citizens.  I have lived in the area since 1978, and would have never predicted the mess it is in now.

Tony


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 27, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> You can take heart in the fact that it isn't just Californians who seem to be unwanted.  In a forum I no longer inhabit, I had mentioned my concern for the long term viability of living just outside Minneapolis with what has been going on there.  I mentioned considering a move to Idaho or Montana.  I was told in no uncertain terms that "we don't want your kind here".  I don't know what "your kind" is, other than not being from there, since I did live in that part of the country for a time back in the 1970s and got along just fine.
> 
> I don't know if the level of hatred has really risen that much in the intervening years, or if there is just a level of bravado when hiding behind a keyboard in a forum instead of talking face to face.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of really immature people all over the place.  Somehow it comforts them to make you and others feel unwelcome.


----------



## Phoenix (Oct 9, 2020)

*CAL FIRE*
*California Daily Wildfire Update*


https://www.fire.ca.gov/daily-wildfire-report/


----------



## DaveA (Oct 10, 2020)

And if everyone, for the most part, believes that Climate Change is one of the major problems, then why are we as a country, withdrawing from worldwide groups that are at least trying to improve the man-made problems connected with the Change.

We can argue "'til the cows come home" about natural vs. man-made problems, but shouldn't we, on a worldwide basis, try and correct things that ARE in our power to change?


----------



## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

DaveA said:


> We can argue "'til the cows come home" about natural vs. man-made problems, but shouldn't we, on a worldwide basis, try and correct things that ARE in our power to change?


Yes, we should try to correct what we can on a worldwide basis, individually and collectively.


----------



## Jules (Oct 10, 2020)

From the update, the containment numbers are looking good.


----------



## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

Jules said:


> From the update, the containment numbers are looking good.


Yes, the containment is better than those in Oregon, although that could have changed overnight.  A front dumped a little over an inch on us last night.  It's been a while since that happened.


----------



## asp3 (Oct 10, 2020)

DaveA said:


> And if everyone, for the most part, believes that Climate Change is one of the major problems, then why are we as a country, withdrawing from worldwide groups that are at least trying to improve the man-made problems connected with the Change.



I'm afraid not everyone believes that climate change is one of the major problems.  Also there are other people who are voting for things other than climate change which are more important for them overall.


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## JB in SC (Oct 10, 2020)

Like an earlier poster, I equate living in a fire zone akin to living at or below sea level, coastal areas, and flood plains. You should more or less expect a disaster at some point in time. You can either take your chances or not. If you don’t control burn and clear underbrush on a regular basis, Mother Nature will.


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

JB in SC said:


> Like an earlier poster, I equate living in a fire zone akin to living at or below sea level, coastal areas, and flood plains. You should more or less expect a disaster at some point in time. You can either take your chances or not. If you don’t control burn and clear underbrush on a regular basis, Mother Nature will.


There is no place to move that's safe.   No Place.  We do control burn.  That's not the issue.  The issue is climate change.


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## Shalimar (Oct 10, 2020)

Nothing fake about climate change. We must pull together or the consequences are lethal. No wonder many younger people are becoming activists for our Mother Earth.


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Nothing fake about climate change. We must pull together or the consequences are lethal. No wonder many younger people are becoming activists for our Mother Earth.


One of the coolest young people is Greta Thunberg of Sweden.  She has a lot of guts standing up to the world about the environment.


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## Shalimar (Oct 10, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> One of the coolest young people is Greta Thunberg of Sweden.  She has a lot of guts standing up to the world about the environment.


Absolutely, Aspbergers Syndrome is truly her super power.


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Absolutely, Aspbergers Syndrome is truly her super power.


Indeed.  She is an inspiration to many.


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> There is no place to move that's safe.   No Place.  We do control burn.  That's not the issue.  The issue is climate change.




Does Oregon do controlled burns?  I know there's a big issue in California with the state stopping scheduled burns on federal lands.   There was a discussion about it in another thread stemming from this article.

They Know How to Prevent Megafires. Why Won’t Anybody Listen?

Excerpt:

Academics believe that between 4.4 million and 11.8 million acres burned each year in prehistoric California. Between 1982 and 1998, California’s agency land managers burned, on average, about 30,000 acres a year. Between 1999 and 2017, that number dropped to an annual 13,000 acres. The state passed a few new laws in 2018 designed to facilitate more intentional burning. But few are optimistic this, alone, will lead to significant change. We live with a deathly backlog. In February 2020, Nature Sustainability published this terrifying conclusion: California would need to burn 20 million acres — an area about the size of Maine — to restabilize in terms of fire.​

,


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Does Oregon do controlled burns?  I know there's a big issue in California with the state stopping scheduled burns on federal lands.


Yes, Oregon does controlled burns.  The problem in both states however is not the controlled burns or lack thereof.  It's the lack of rain fall.  In the last twenty years, every year in the part of Oregon I live in there has been 20 inches less rain than there used to be.  So the trees and plants that depend on it, aren't getting enough.  So the vegetation is drying out.  As an example the Douglas fir trees which are prolific here don't get enough water, so they stop sending the water to their lower branches and send it to the growth areas on top of the trees.  The lower branches die.  The Douglas fir in my yard have lost 3/4ths of their lower limbs because of that.  So when the unprecidented heat hits, everything is a tinder box.  It's worse in CA.

There is another issue relative to forest management.  When funds are tight there are cuts made across the board.  If you don't have enough funds you can't do all the things that need to be done.  To go into this I would have to get political, so I will stop now.


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> There is another issue relative to forest management.  When funds are tight there are cuts made across the board.  If you don't have enough funds you can't do all the things that need to be done.  To go into this I would have to get political, so I will stop now.



Did you read the funding portion of the article?


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Did you read the funding portion of the article?


I don't know what article you are talking about.  All I know is that there are never enough funds to do the things we truly need to do.  And I know we are in crisis mode and so many deny that.  Each person believes what they want to believe and often it is not based on scientific facts.  I know what's happening where I am.  Trees are planation farmed for the benefit of the timber industry.  They are planted really close together which doesn't allow for the needed diversity for a viable ecological forest.   There's no need to control burn it, because there is nothing there other than the trees in lots of places.  People either believe in climate change as the cause or they don't.  If they don't there's no getting through.


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## AnnieA (Oct 10, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I don't know what article you are talking about.  All I know is that there are never enough funds to do the things we truly need to do



The one I linked in post 132.  It's very detailed. A sad read, especially from the standpoint of damage to the climate by the infighting and corruption of government agencies tasked with protecting people and the planet.


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## Phoenix (Oct 10, 2020)

The climate is changing.  We have done this to the planet.  Be well.


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## Mrs. Robinson (Oct 10, 2020)

We went to the Napa Valley for dinner tonight-specifically to St.Helena-and seeing all the destruction just turns your stomach. On the other hand,the firefighters saved so much,so many beautiful historical buildings. And we only saw one home that had burned to the ground,although I know there were more than that lost. I also know that they are looking at arson as the cause,and happen to know a very interesting story about a possible suspect. I will fill you all in if something materializes down the road....


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## Ruthanne (Oct 11, 2020)

Very very sad about these fires...I hope they will get contained in speedy time.❤


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## Phoenix (Oct 11, 2020)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> We went to the Napa Valley for dinner tonight-specifically to St.Helena-and seeing all the destruction just turns your stomach. On the other hand,the firefighters saved so much,so many beautiful historical buildings. And we only saw one home that had burned to the ground,although I know there were more than that lost. I also know that they are looking at arson as the cause,and happen to know a very interesting story about a possible suspect. I will fill you all in if something materializes down the road....


A lot of the fires in Oregon were caused by arson too.  It's just that everything is so dry that they explode quickly into fires that are difficult to put out.  All they can often do is created a line around them and let them burn themselves out.  Glad you are okay.  Here the terrain is steep and hard to reach.


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## Granny B. (Oct 11, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> The climate is changing.  We have done this to the planet.  Be well.


 I couldn't agree more.  It's tragic about all the millions of acres burned.  And it will probably be the same next year and the year after.  Most of the fires around here are caused by lightning. 

 Luckily we didn't have any major fires endangering us this year but there still were some close enough where we had many days of really bad air quality.  Here's a great fire and smoke map I've been using.  Zoom in and click on the colored dots and squares to see the readings.

Fire and smoke map

I work at an elementary school and there have been many days where we have not been able to let the kids out at recess because of bad air quality.  Finally, last week, with the latest large fire nearby nearly contained, the kids have been able to go outside.


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## Phoenix (Oct 11, 2020)

Granny B. said:


> I couldn't agree more.  It's tragic about all the millions of acres burned.  And it will probably be the same next year and the year after.  Most of the fires around here are caused by lightning.
> 
> Luckily we didn't have any major fires endangering us this year but there still were some close enough where we had many days of really bad air quality.  Here's a great fire and smoke map I've been using.  Zoom in and click on the colored dots and squares to see the readings.
> 
> ...


I hear you.  Thanks for the interesting map.  It is very worrisome when it happens close.  Whether or not we can breathe is dependant on which way the wind is blowing.  Is it blowing the smoke over us or away from us? We had some small fires start not far from where I am, but thankfully they were put out.  Yes, it will be like this every year now.  One of the things that some people, who don't live near something like this, don't realize is they are not exempt from the effects of climate change.  The areas that get hurricanes and deluges of rain get more of them and they are more severe now.  If a person decides to move, the place they move to will be affected by something too, soon.  People once thought they could move away from earthquake zones, then the earthquakes started happening in areas that had never had them before because of fracking.  Did you know that in Wyoming, with the huge volcano just waiting to erupt in Yellowstone, businesses wanted to do fracking there?  It would be disastrous.  When that volcano goes off it could trigger nuclear winter worldwide.  I don't know if they actually started fracking there or not.  My friend who kept me up on it got married and moved to Georgia where the hurricanes are.  So far he hasn't been hit by them.


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## Granny B. (Oct 11, 2020)

You're welcome.  I have relatives who moved from CA to Idaho thinking they were getting away from earthquakes and were upset when moderate quakes started happening near them. Every place does seem to have its challenges.  Guess I'll stay in earthquake territory, but all these fires are tragic on so many levels.


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## Phoenix (Oct 11, 2020)

Granny B. said:


> You're welcome.  I have relatives who moved from CA to Idaho thinking they were getting away from earthquakes and were upset when moderate quakes started happening near them. Every place does seem to have its challenges.  Guess I'll stay in earthquake territory, but all these fires are tragic on so many levels.


Here in Oregon we have some quakes.  There's a fault line 130 miles off the coast.  There are fault lines under some of the rivers in the northern part of the state, one of them in the area that is currently burning.  If a person watches any documentaries on what's happening to the wildlife and people around the planet, they can see that the water is drying up everywhere. Good fertile land is drying out and blowing away.  There are documentaries on what each degree of warming of the climate does to the oceans, the wildlife that live there and on the land.  It's both fascinating and tragic.


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## Pecos (Oct 11, 2020)

Granny B. said:


> I couldn't agree more.  It's tragic about all the millions of acres burned.  And it will probably be the same next year and the year after.  Most of the fires around here are caused by lightning.
> 
> Luckily we didn't have any major fires endangering us this year but there still were some close enough where we had many days of really bad air quality.  Here's a great fire and smoke map I've been using.  Zoom in and click on the colored dots and squares to see the readings.
> 
> ...


My Grandson has been fighting fires in Northern California for several week, normally he fights fires in Washington State or Oregon. I hate to think of what inhaling all that smoke is going to do to his long-term health. The last I heard, he was assigned to the Red Salmon fire up in the mountains. 

I love him, admire his courage, and worry about him a lot.


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## Jules (Oct 11, 2020)

Like his grandfather, a good looking man.  I don’t blame you for worrying about his safety.  Firefighting is a tough and dangerous job.


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## Bethea (Oct 11, 2020)

Have those fires stopped yet or are they still going?


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## Pecos (Oct 11, 2020)

Bethea said:


> Have those fires stopped yet or are they still going?


Still going.


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## Bethea (Oct 11, 2020)

Pecos said:


> Still going.


Oh my. I'm so sorry.


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## Granny B. (Oct 12, 2020)

Pecos said:


> My Grandson has been fighting fires in Northern California for several week, normally he fights fires in Washington State or Oregon. I hate to think of what inhaling all that smoke is going to do to his long-term health. The last I heard, he was assigned to the Red Salmon fire up in the mountains.
> 
> I love him, admire his courage, and worry about him a lot.



No doubt you are worried about your grandson.  People like me are so grateful for his brave service.  Please convey my personal thanks to him if you get a chance.  Don't know what we would do without firefighters, and those who come from out of state to help in our time of need.  I know their working conditions are very difficult. 

Hopefully, he does have some kind of mask that helps keep him from breathing all the smoke.


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## Phoenix (Oct 12, 2020)

Damaged Goods said:


> Do the left coast fires continue into Canada and Mexico or do those countries apply scientific methods in fire control management rather than rely on the green extreme moonbats?


Good forrest management is practiced here.  There are still fires. You really are determined to be a  non-believer, I see.  That's sad.


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## Jules (Oct 12, 2020)

Living on the left side of Canada (BC), we live in fear of fires.  There’ve been many more lately.  Climate change has allowed many pests like Pine Bark Beetles to multiply and destroy our forests.  Once these dead trees are on fire, the spread within and out of these massive zones is rapid.


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## RadishRose (Oct 12, 2020)

Pecos said:


> My Grandson has been fighting fires in Northern California for several week, normally he fights fires in Washington State or Oregon. I hate to think of what inhaling all that smoke is going to do to his long-term health. The last I heard, he was assigned to the Red Salmon fire up in the mountains.
> 
> I love him, admire his courage, and worry about him a lot.View attachment 127665


I love your grandson! May he stay safe.


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## Damaged Goods (Oct 12, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Good forrest management is practiced here.  There are still fires. You really are determined to be a  non-believer, I see.  That's sad.



Don't know what "here" means but it ain't California.  Non-believer, how?  Climate has always been changing and will continue to do so even after we all trade in our internal combustion vehicles for bicycles.


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## Damaged Goods (Oct 12, 2020)

Jules said:


> Living on the left side of Canada (BC), we live in fear of fires.  There’ve been many more lately.  Climate change has allowed many pests like Pine Bark Beetles to multiply and destroy our forests.  Once these dead trees are on fire, the spread within and out of these massive zones is rapid.



Effective and safe insecticides for pine bark beetle have been available for decades.  In addition, dead trees should be cleared thus discouraging arsonists.

Sounds like your forest management people are falling down on the job.  Sort of like those in Washington, Oregon, and California caretakers of their environments.


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## Jules (Oct 12, 2020)

Damaged Goods said:


> Effective and safe insecticides for pine bark beetle have been available for decades. In addition, dead trees should be cleared thus discouraging arsonists.


Show me scientific facts about this.  The only thing that kills bark beetles is prolonged exposure at -40 for weeks.  Since there are tens of thousands of hectares of dead trees, your idea of tidying up is impossible.  
They can’t keep up with the logging & removal.

Have you ever worked in the forest industry?


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## Damaged Goods (Oct 12, 2020)

It's my understanding that direct injection of various pesticides into the bark of conifers is effective and environmentally sound.  Your custodians should have acted instead of allowing 10,000 hectares of dead wood to accumulate.

My connection with trees is limited to the years 1976-84 when I personally planted 1,000 trees on my property, a modern-day Johnny Appleseed, not for tree hugging reasons but rather to reduce the amount of grass that I had to mow.

So tell me, what's your solution to keep the climate from changing?  And when you come up with a solution, you gonna run it by India, Russia, and Communist China?

So much whining ... but no solutions.

Seems like it was in the 1970s or 80s when Time magazine was warning us about the new Ice Age.


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## grahamg (Oct 12, 2020)

Damaged Goods said:


> So tell me, what's your solution to keep the climate from changing?  And when you come up with a solution, you gonna run it by India, Russia, and Communist China? So much whining ... but no solutions.
> Seems like it was in the 1970s or 80s when Time magazine was warning us about the new Ice Age.


You are right when you suggest warnings about climate change have been around for most of our lives, of differing kinds.
However, you seem unaware Communist China has announced very ambitious plans to curb carbon dioxide emissions to net zero, so maybe they have a plan, and look prepared to lead others, if they'll follow.


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## Damaged Goods (Oct 13, 2020)

Yeah, the ChiComs are always honest and upstanding, just like they were when the Wuhan Red Death "escaped" from their control.

They won't do anything whatsoever that would stymie or impair their quest to be the top economic power in the world.

And even if what they say is true, would their plan stop the climate from changing?


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## grahamg (Oct 13, 2020)

Damaged Goods said:


> Yeah, the ChiComs are always honest and upstanding, just like they were when the Wuhan Red Death "escaped" from their control.
> They won't do anything whatsoever that would stymie or impair their quest to be the top economic power in the world.
> And even if what they say is true, would their plan stop the climate from changing?


I'm only saying the Chinese say they have a plan to reduce to net zero in a tighter time frame than most so far, and I cant blame anyone for being sceptical about it, or whether it is a plan that might work if it were applied effectively, but it would at least appear it might be unfair to say they had no plan(?).


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## grahamg (Oct 13, 2020)

If you don't mind I prefer a more conservative approach, or more conservation minded response, to threats where everyone's future might be at stake, (call me risk averse if you like, and I admit to being from a long line of people who dislike waste or over extravagance )!


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## Phoenix (Oct 14, 2020)

*Red flag warnings in West as record heat, gusty winds expected in California*

https://abcnews.go.com/US/red-flag-warnings-west-record-heat-gusty-winds/story?id=73603397


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## Damaged Goods (Oct 14, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> *Red flag warnings in West as record heat, gusty winds expected in California*
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/red-flag-warnings-west-record-heat-gusty-winds/story?id=73603397



https://www.sfchronicle.com/califor...-federal-state-agreement-aims-to-15523233.php

*$1 billion federal-state agreement seeks to reduce California wildfire risks

Long overdue*


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## JB in SC (Oct 21, 2020)

Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it? First it was global cooling, then global warming. When meteorologists can predict the weather a week in advance I’ll listen.


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## JustBonee (Oct 21, 2020)

Colorado is also  getting  large scale wildfires   ...  too many drought conditions in the West  

https://www.denverpost.com/news/colorado/colorado-wildfires/


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## grahamg (Oct 21, 2020)

JB in SC said:


> Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it? First it was global cooling, then global warming. When meteorologists can predict the weather a week in advance I’ll listen.


I think it worth acknowledging meteorologists nowadays do say any forecast they might make over four days in advance come with a warning as to their uncertainty, (maybe connected to "chaos theory"?).
On the otherhand, if you were to look at carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, said to be connected to climate change, and believe historical figures are accurate, then making an impact in terms of reducing levels of carbon dioxide takes years/decades. It isn't really comparable with predicting weather a week in advance, (were that possible to do 100% accurately).


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## asp3 (Oct 21, 2020)

JB in SC said:


> Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it? First it was global cooling, then global warming. When meteorologists can predict the weather a week in advance I’ll listen.



Can you point to any credible studies that predicted global cooling published in the last three decades?  I think not.  There are some people who say that we will be experiencing global cooling instead of global warming but I'm unaware of any of them that have published a credible, peer reviewed paper with their study and data to back up their claims.  So the scientific community as a whole has not gone back and forth between global cooling and global warming and is 90%+ behind the studies which predict warming.

You are comparing apples and oranges when trying to equate accuracy of local weather predictions and climate change predictions.  In fact climate change is making local weather predictions less accurate because the patterns and conditions that have been used to build the weather forecasting models are no longer as stable as they were in the past.

In addition it's very easy to tell what will happen to a closed system when one adds more CO2 or another greenhouse gas to that system.  We also know what happens around the world when oceans are warmer or cooler because those changes have occurred naturally and we have observed the results.  You can't say that for example Houston will be hit by more hurricanes when the Caribbean and equatorial Atlantic are warmer but you can say that the chances of having more hurricanes is higher.


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## asp3 (Oct 21, 2020)

Here's a great article about the fact that the predictions of global cooling in the 70's were just media articles and that most of the climate studies in the 70's were predicting increased temperatures due to CO2.

https://skepticalscience.com/What-1970s-science-said-about-global-cooling.html


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## Don M. (Oct 21, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Colorado is also  getting  large scale wildfires   ...  too many drought conditions in the West
> https://www.denverpost.com/news/colorado/colorado-wildfires/



Yes, I've spoken to my Sister, in Denver, and she said the fires are really bad in the mountains.  There have been days when the wind shifted, and covered the Denver area with haze and smoke.   Further North, several towns have had to be evacuated, and a couple of our cousins who have cabins in the mountains are worried that their properties might be burned.  Much of the Western half of the US has had drought conditions this year, while here in the Midwest and the eastern half of the nation, the rainfall amounts are well above normal.


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## Sunny (Oct 21, 2020)

JB in SC said:


> Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it? First it was global cooling, then global warming. When meteorologists can predithect the weather a week in advance I’ll listen.



In addition to what asp3 said, the fact that some meteorologists in the past predicted something that didn't happen, proves nothing at all about current studies and predictions. Science has moved forward by leaps and bounds, and weather/climate prediction has improved enormously since the 1970's.  We might as well go back to the days when fortune tellers read tea leaves. Science does keep improving and changing all the time.

I don't know what they said about "global cooling" 50 years ago, but isn't that really pretty irrelevant?


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## Jules (Oct 26, 2020)

Oh no.  90,000 people evacuated today because of fires.


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## StarSong (Oct 27, 2020)

Jules said:


> Oh no.  90,000 people evacuated today because of fires.


The winds have been whipping in So Cal since Sunday.  The forecast calls for them to settle down considerably from this afternoon forward.


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## Pecos (Oct 27, 2020)

Pecos said:


> My Grandson has been fighting fires in Northern California for several week, normally he fights fires in Washington State or Oregon. I hate to think of what inhaling all that smoke is going to do to his long-term health. The last I heard, he was assigned to the Red Salmon fire up in the mountains.
> 
> I love him, admire his courage, and worry about him a lot.View attachment 127665


My Grandson has been moved back to Washington State and is fighting fires North of Spokane.
This is turning out to be an extremely long fire season this year.


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## fmdog44 (Oct 27, 2020)

95 mph winds. A cat one hurricane is 75mph. Truly hell on Earth.


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## PamfromTx (Oct 27, 2020)

Pecos said:


> My Grandson has been moved back to Washington State and is fighting fires North of Spokane.
> This is turning out to be an extremely long fire season this year.


Prayers for your grandson; may he stay protected and safe.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 27, 2020)

My friend isn't in danger of having to evacuate because the fires aren't coming her way but she said due to the air quality and ash that's been coating her S.O.'s car, they can't even sit outside and enjoy the backyard they worked so hard to remodel. She hardly goes outside now.


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