# Comparison between Islamic and Christian barbarity



## Josiah (Feb 6, 2015)

President Obama, in an address at the National Prayer Breakfast, pointed out the comparison between the recent acts of barbarity committed by ISIS and the exactly comparable acts (burning at the stake) committed during the inquisition in the name of Christ many centuries ago. The Presidents comments did not go over well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/us/politics/obama-national-prayer-breakfast-terrorism-islam.html


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 6, 2015)

The President and the Pope probably regret the statements that they made yesterday...


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Yet on the other hand... why sugar coat Christianity..   There were many atrocities committed during those early times.  Perhaps some justified.. perhaps not.  What if he had sited the crimes committed in the name of Christianity more recently?   (from Wiki)

In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[SUP][8][/SUP][SUP][9][/SUP]


*March 10, 1993:* Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[SUP][10][/SUP]
*July 29, 1994:* Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.
*December 30, 1994:* Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
*January 29, 1998:* Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
*October 23, 1998:* Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York.[SUP][11][/SUP] His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.


*May 31, 2009:* Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas.[SUP][12][/SUP]
[h=4]Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping[edit][/h]According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[SUP][13][/SUP] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[SUP][8][/SUP][SUP][14][/SUP][SUP][15][/SUP]


*August 1982*: Three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Rosalee Jean, holding them for eight days.[SUP][16][/SUP]
*August 19, 1993:* Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
*July 29, 1994:* June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
*December 30, 1994:* Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
*October 28, 1997:* Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[SUP][17][/SUP]
*January 29, 1998:* Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson.
[h=4]Arson, bombing, and property crime[edit][/h]According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[SUP][13][/SUP] The _New York Times_ also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[SUP][18][/SUP] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[SUP][19][/SUP] Incidents have included:


*May 26, 1983:* Joseph Grace set the Hillcrest clinic in Norfolk, Virginia ablaze. He was arrested while sleeping in his van a few blocks from the clinic when an alert patrol officer noticed the smell of kerosene.[SUP][20][/SUP]
*May 12, 1984:* Two men entered a Birmingham, Alabama clinic shortly after a lone woman opened the doors at 7:45 am. Forcing their way into the clinic, one of the men threatened the woman if she tried to prevent the attack while the other, wielding a sledgehammer, did between $7,500 and $8,000 of damage to suction equipment. The man who damaged the equipment was later identified as Father Edward Markley. Father Markley is a Benedictine Monk who was the Birmingham diocesan "Coordinator for Pro-Life Activities". Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief and second-degree burglary. His accomplice has never been identified. Following the Birmingham incident, Markley entered the Women's Community Health Center in Huntsville Alabama, assaulting at least three clinic workers. One of the workers, Kathryn Wood received back injuries and a broken neck vertebrae. Markley was convicted of first-degree criminal mischief and three counts of third-degree assault and harassment in the Huntsville attack.[SUP][21][/SUP]
*December 25, 1984:* An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida, were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."[SUP][22][/SUP][SUP][23][/SUP][SUP][24][/SUP] The clinic, the Ladies Center, would later be the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994 and a firebombing in 2012.
*March 29, 1993:* Blue Mountain Clinic in Missoula, Montana; at around 1 a.m., an arsonist snuck onto the premises and firebombed the clinic. The perpetrator, a Washington man, was ultimately caught, convicted and imprisoned. The facility was a near-total loss, but all of the patients' records, though damaged, survived the fire in metal file cabinets.[SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][26][/SUP][SUP][27][/SUP]
*May 21, 1998:* Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.[SUP][28][/SUP]
*October 1999:* Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[SUP][29][/SUP]
*May 28, 2000:* An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire, resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved.[SUP][30][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP][SUP][32][/SUP] This was the second arson at the clinic.[SUP][33][/SUP]
*September 30, 2000:* John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building, who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.[SUP][34][/SUP]
*June 11, 2001:* An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington, destroyed a wall, resulting in $6,000 in damages.[SUP][29][/SUP][SUP][35][/SUP]
*July 4, 2005:* A clinic Palm Beach, Florida, was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[SUP][29][/SUP]
*December 12, 2005:* Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a "memorial lamp" for an abortion she had had there.[SUP][36][/SUP]
*September 11, 2006* David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan, crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions; however, Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.[SUP][37][/SUP] _Time_ magazine listed the incident in a "Top 10 Inept Terrorist Plots" list.[SUP][38][/SUP]
*April 25, 2007:* A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas, contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.[SUP][39][/SUP]
*May 9, 2007:* An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[SUP][40][/SUP]
*December 6, 2007:* Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Baca's girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[SUP][41][/SUP][SUP][42][/SUP]
*January 22, 2009* Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness[SUP][43][/SUP] rammed an SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[SUP][44][/SUP]
*January 1, 2012* Bobby Joe Rogers, 41, firebombed the American Family Planning Clinic in Pensacola, Florida, with a Molotov cocktail; the fire gutted the building. Rogers told investigators that he was motivated to commit the crime by his opposition to abortion, and that what more directly prompted the act was seeing a patient enter the clinic during one of the frequent anti-abortion protests there. The clinic had previously been bombed at Christmas in 1984 and was the site of the murder of Dr. John Britton and James Barrett in 1994.[SUP][45][/SUP]
*April 1, 2012* A bomb exploded on the windowsill of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wisconsin, resulting in a fire that damaged one of the clinic's examination rooms. No injuries were reported.
*April 11, 2013* A Planned Parenthood clinic in Bloomington, Indiana, was vandalized with an axe.[SUP][46][/SUP]
[h=4]Anthrax threats[edit]


  I think what the President was trying to do was illustrate how the vast majority of Christians are not violent.. neither are the vast majority of Muslims.. and to try to squelch some of the over the top Islamophobia that ISIS has created.  Christians never seem to be able to look at themselves with an abject eye.. and always put themselves about other religions..  That's fine.  It's great to be proud... but even better to be realistic.[/h]


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## Josiah (Feb 6, 2015)

Excellent post, QuickSilver.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 6, 2015)

This wasn't exactly the time to talk about things so far in the past as he did and, let's face it, he flopped, as did the Pope saying that a father's spanking of his son was beautiful...


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> This wasn't exactly the time to talk about things so far in the past as he did and, let's face it, he flopped, as did the Pope saying that a father's spanking of his son was beautiful...



. I don't agree... I don't think it was a flop at all... and very astute...  Let's face it, most of the Islamic States are not operating in the realm of the 21st century..   They are centuries behind us..  So we were a bit barbaric centuries ago too?   That's the point being made..

You may want to peruse the list of the more recent atrocities done by "Christians" ....  In the name of Christ..  I put a list up for ya.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 6, 2015)

Religions ( all of them ) are the scourge of the earth. There will never be worldwide peace until all of them are abolished. Of course all of you who adhere to a religion will say yes, we should abolish all of them....except mine.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Religions ( all of them ) are the scourge of the earth. There will never be worldwide peace until all of them are abolished. Of course all of you who adhere to a religion will say yes, we should abolish all of them....except mine.




now that's the truth..


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2015)

http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/05/is...il&utm_term=0_4ebbe6839f-5a2f37d547-168238561

This is an excellent article by Bill Moyers.  He addresses the burning alive of the Jordanian pilot by Isis.  But he also addresses the torture and burning alive of a young black man by a group of vigilantes.  Isis considers itself Muslim; the vigilantes considered themselves Christian ... 

" Sure enough, there it was: the charred corpse of a young black man, tied to a blistered tree in the heart of the Texas Bible Belt. Next to the burned body, young white men can be seen smiling. One of them sent a picture postcard home: “This is the barbeque we had last night. Your son, Joe.” The victim’s name was Jesse Washington. The year was 1916.

The truth, of course, is that there are Muslim extremists.  There are Christian extremists. They are not true Muslims just as they are not true Christians.
Rocky


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/05/is...il&utm_term=0_4ebbe6839f-5a2f37d547-168238561
> 
> This is an excellent article by Bill Moyers.  He addresses the burning alive of the Jordanian pilot by Isis.  But he also addresses the torture and burning alive of a young black man by a group of vigilantes.  Isis considers itself Muslim; the vigilantes considered themselves Christian ...
> 
> ...



Excellent post.   Many racists have used the Bible to support brutality against Blacks as being sanctioned by God.    Scripture in both the old and new testament are used to support this.  

http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm


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## Don M. (Feb 6, 2015)

Humans always seem to use "religion" as an excuse for their brutality.  Islam was founded about 700 years after Christianity, and it is going through many of the same excesses that Christianity was practicing in the Dark and Middle Ages.  There is no real way to stop these fanatics, so people and nations must be always "on guard".  The Only way these fanatics can be controlled is if the "moderates" in Islam...if there really are any...take control, and begin policing their own religion.  However, so long as they persist in believing in Sharia Law, and Death to All Infidels, we are All at some degree of risk.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 6, 2015)

One can go back to the Christian crusades and see horror of Christians in volume.  Burning people, I've read accounts of tiny babies speared with battle forks and on it went.  Christian or Muslim this world has some "Holy killers".


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## Don M. (Feb 6, 2015)

If there is any justice in this world, legions of "religious fanatics" are given a front row seat at the Fires of Hell.  If all these fanatics actually practiced what they preach, this would be a pretty peaceful world.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If there is any justice in this world, legions of "religious fanatics" are given a front row seat at the Fires of Hell.  If all these fanatics actually practiced what they preach, this would be a pretty peaceful world.



But most of us... have a smidgeon of Religious insecurity.. even those of us who profess agnosticism or atheism....  It's really hard to argue with a person who feels they have GOD on their side.  All it seems to take is a really good THUMP on the Bible..   Look at Congress... sometimes I swear I'm listening to evangelism rather than legislating


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 6, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> President Obama, in an address at the National Prayer Breakfast, pointed out the comparison between the recent acts of barbarity committed by ISIS and the exactly comparable acts (burning at the stake) committed during the inquisition in the name of Christ many centuries ago. The Presidents comments did not go over well.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/us/politics/obama-national-prayer-breakfast-terrorism-islam.html



I hadn't heard that until you posted it Josiah, thanks.  I see nothing wrong with anything he said, it's refreshing really for a President to acknowledge the realities of the present and past, and speak the truth about all religions.  Just because many atrocities happened a long time ago, doesn't mean that they didn't happen.  I imagine it didn't go over well with the hard-core christians/republicans, not much of he does or says does, lol.


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## Don M. (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> But most of us... have a smidgeon of Religious insecurity.. even those of us who profess agnosticism or atheism....  It's really hard to argue with a person who feels they have GOD on their side.  All it seems to take is a really good THUMP on the Bible..   Look at Congress... sometimes I swear I'm listening to evangelism rather than legislating



It's only natural that we all have some "Religious Insecurity"...after all, no one Really knows what happens when we exit this life.  There are conflicting ideas about any "afterlife" from the various religions, and they are All just Speculating.  About all a person can do is try to live their lives honestly, and don't screw up too often, and perhaps, then, their "soul" will pass into another good venue.  I can't buy the idea that all this Universe and everything in it just "happened", but I also think that whatever power is responsible is far beyond our feeble comprehension.


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## Josiah (Feb 6, 2015)

Don M. said:


> It's only natural that we all have some "Religious Insecurity"...after all, no one Really knows what happens when we exit this life.  There are conflicting ideas about any "afterlife" from the various religions, and they are All just Speculating.  About all a person can do is try to live their lives honestly, and don't screw up too often, and perhaps, then, their "soul" will pass into another good venue.  I can't buy the idea that all this Universe and everything in it just "happened", but I also think that whatever power is responsible is far beyond our feeble comprehension.



I'm not bragging, but I can say with total candor that I have not a smidgen "Religious Insecurity".


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I'm not bragging, but I can say with total candor that I have not a smidgen "Religious Insecurity".



You mean that way.. way.. way.. deep inside there isn't a little voice saying... I wonder if they are right?  It would seem impossible to escape that.. especially if you have had religion forced on you from childhood.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 6, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Excellent post, QuickSilver.



Ditto.


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## Butterfly (Feb 6, 2015)

What's the old saw about atheists in foxholes . . . .


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## darroll (Feb 6, 2015)

He didn't have to blame religion for slavery. 
He must have a one tract mind.
There are too many people yelling that I got screwed?
Two hundred years ago, thats a lot of love.


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## NancyNGA (Feb 6, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I'm not bragging, but I can say with total candor that I have not a smidgen "Religious Insecurity".



Me too.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 6, 2015)

That's what I admire about Atheists..


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Excellent post.   Many racists have used the Bible to support brutality against Blacks as being sanctioned by God.    Scripture in both the old and new testament are used to support this.
> 
> http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm



Lets not forget the theology that supported Apartheid in South Africa and the practice of "necklacing" by the Africans who were fighting Apartheid. Nelson Mandela's wife Winnie was implicated in that particular practice.
http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_Winnie_Mandela_necklace

Hindus in Northern India burned alive an Australian missionary and his two sons when they caught them sleeping in their car.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/odisha-a...ccused-arrested-in-keonjhar/392211-3-234.html

ISIS is not unique in cruel barbarity.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 6, 2015)

The problem with going back that far in history is two fold. First is time and second is that history is being ignored by ISIS and supporters.

I get the impression some of the unidentified 'leaders' threw that analogy at him. And since that 'breakfeast' was butt suck session I'm not surprised with comments like that.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 7, 2015)

It always amazes me how Republicans can hear a speech and come away with something entirely different than the rest of us..  Didn't hear one tiny bit of what sounded like "butt sucking"...  I heard someone talking about reality.. and making sense.   BUT then again... I didn't have my bias and hatred hearing aid in.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 7, 2015)

About the overreaction to the speech by the religious right. http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/07/radical-cant-handle-truth-president-obama.html



> The President infuriated the Christian right during the National Prayer Breakfast when he said that no particular religion “_has a monopoly on violence_.”
> 
> His exact words were, “_And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place – remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. Slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ_.”
> 
> Of course the President spoke the truth, albeit a grossly understated truth, but it incited the Christian right to apoplexy as if he had insulted their god almighty to his face.


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