# Things Must Change



## Feelslikefar (Dec 1, 2022)

Not sure where to put this, maybe in the Veterans Forum, maybe not.
I think lot of us would agree that we need to keep our young people out of needless wars.

Having joined in 1970, when the Vietnam War was still happening and did my service.
Loading bombs on a B-52 during this time, I know that it was my duty and my responsibity.

This Thead is about how you feel today.  

We have all seen the people who put us in harm's way, and then their sons had a deferment.

I questioned our involvement during 'Operation Desert Storm'. My Second War.
Still went over and did my job.

Not sure what I want to say, but things must change in Upper levels of the Military.

Too few Military members, so more have to be deployed, many who just got back from a deployment.

Off my soapbox


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## Don M. (Dec 1, 2022)

I think every young person who is not physically or mentally disabled should be required to perform a period of military, or community service.


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## hearlady (Dec 1, 2022)

I was thinking the same thing.


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## hollydolly (Dec 1, 2022)

Don M. said:


> I think every young person who is not physically or mentally disabled should be required to perform a period of military, or community service.


I absolutely agree. Bring back National Service..

My first husband joined up at 19.. and was in the Navy when the Falklands war was raging on between Britain and Argentina..  Britain won the war but there was a lot of needless loss of lives on both sides..

I was married to my then husband all through his time in the Royal Navy.. and believe me he went in a boy and came out a man... definitely made a much better person out of him..

I have family members who were deployed to Afghanistan  with the Royal Marines.. and also with the army.. all of who came out of the services after doing their time proud to have served their country.. and with a completely different perspective on life and the world, than before they enlisted..


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## Disgustedman (Dec 1, 2022)

The price paid, sometimes is too much. I really didn't like us going into Afghanistan,when it was Saudis who did the deed. 

But what got me, was this picture.

There's nothing in this world, that makes this acceptable.


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## 1955 (Dec 1, 2022)

I enlisted but have mixed feelings about this. I think the politicians should duke it out with the opposing side and then maybe we could learn better cooperation rather than resorting to conflict

I can’t believe in this day & age war even exists. It’s all because of stupid morons… The world spends more money on the war machine than it would if we just took care of one another and our planet! No need for a national service!


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## Been There (Dec 2, 2022)

Wars have been going on forever. How are they just going to suddenly stop?


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## Llynn (Dec 2, 2022)

Welcome home, Brother.  I ain't no "fortunate son" either.


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## SeniorBen (Dec 2, 2022)

War is a big money maker for the military industrial complex and they have a lot of power over politicians.

Remember this line: "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish you had at a later time."

That was Donald Rumsfeld, making excuses for not providing soldiers with the protection they needed. I guess whoever supplied armor didn't fill the coffers of elected officials, so that wasn't a high priority. But we sure dropped a lot of bombs! There's big money in bombing the crap out of other countries.


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## Tish (Dec 2, 2022)

I absolutely agree with bringing back National Service.
It will teach them responsibility and duty of care, instead of becoming "Woke" crybaby Snowflakes who think the world owes them something, gluing themselves to paintings and spilling milk in grocery stores.


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## Ruthanne (Dec 2, 2022)

Been There said:


> Wars have been going on forever. How are they just going to suddenly stop?


That's the million dollar question


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## helenbacque (Dec 2, 2022)

Wars are necessary in order to justify the massive military budgets.  The young people who get used up and thrown away are collateral damage.  What is important is the business side.  Buy enough of Congress and you can do as you wish.


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## Nathan (Dec 2, 2022)

"Old soldiers never die....it's the young ones that do".


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## Chet (Dec 2, 2022)

Usually it's the young and naive who enlist and only find out later that the government and a whole lot of the country doesn't give a damn about them.


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 2, 2022)

My brother is 10 years younger than me. I'm glad he missed being drafted. I don't think national make work projects do anything other than create "make work" projects.   And as far as "making a man out of you", if you take an 18 year old kid, and age him 4 years, you get an adult. You don't need a war to that, it happens naturally.


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## 911 (Dec 2, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> War is a big money maker for the military industrial complex and they have a lot of power over politicians.
> 
> Remember this line: "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish you had at a later time."
> 
> That was Donald Rumsfeld, making excuses for not providing soldiers with the protection they needed. I guess whoever supplied armor didn't fill the coffers of elected officials, so that wasn't a high priority. But we sure dropped a lot of bombs! There's big money in bombing the crap out of other countries.


While studying U.S. History in college, I remember reading about all the bombs that were dropped in Vietnam. There must be a lot of money for the Oligarchs that get paid.


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## Nathan (Dec 2, 2022)

Chet said:


> Usually it's the young and naive who enlist and only find out later that the government and a whole lot of the country doesn't give a damn about them.


That's my story, enlisted at 17, shipped to Vietnam at 19...come home with quite an education in life.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 2, 2022)

Feelslikefar said:


> Not sure where to put this, maybe in the Veterans Forum, maybe not.
> I think lot of us would agree that we need to keep our young people out of needless wars.
> 
> Having joined in 1970, when the Vietnam War was still happening and did my service.
> ...


Seems obvious to me that, what with Russia's embarrassing invasion of Ukraine, Finland joining the EU, nationwide protests in China (against the CCP, no less!), much of Europe in a sweat over fuel and Africa sweating over grain imports, things will definitely change. And probably real soon. Seriously, I can hear the clock ticking.


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## ArnoldC (Dec 2, 2022)

_Feelslikefar_, it was inevitable.  Everything has changed.  Ex-pat the only viable solution.  Get the heck out.  It's only going to get worse.

Me?  Too old to Ex-pat.  No country is eager to take on a 79+ y.o.  Do my daily push-ups and leg lifts and go to the rifle range once a month.  Pay my bills.  Vote for what that's worth.  Basically, fly under the radar.

Yeah, what it is today is not what I signed up for in 1961.  But it is what it is.  Suck it up and gut it out.  One of these days it's all going to end.


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## Blessed (Dec 2, 2022)

Father, Air force, I was born in France, then we went to Germany for a couple of years.  He served in Japan and Greenland that I know of.  He died of a heart attack at 36, I was only 3.  Veterans benefits to Mom, sister and me helped us have a good life.  He was not here but he made sure we were taken care of.  The true measure of a man, making sure his family is safe if the worst thing happens/


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## squatting dog (Dec 2, 2022)

Chet said:


> Usually it's the young and naive who enlist and only find out later that the government and a whole lot of the country doesn't give a damn about them.


For sure. 
Similar to Nathan I enlisted in 1968 at 18 years old. Shipped to Vietnam after basic training (8 weeks) and A.I.T. ( 11b, another 8 weeks).
Wish I could say I left Nam. Physically it was November 1970, mentally, not yet.   although it has gotten some better over these last few years. (thank you dear wife).


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## Disgustedman (Dec 4, 2022)

I ran across this comic, it's pretty spot on depicting ourselves and attitudes


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## DGM (Dec 10, 2022)

"if you take an 18 year old kid, and age him 4 years, you get an adult. You don't need a war to that, it happens naturally."
Maybe this was true of our generation but it is no longer the case.  Why Are Men in Crisis? | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) - YouTube


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## ArnoldC (Dec 10, 2022)

Yep.  Watched the vid.  Don't disagree.  Problem is the "disasters" keep getting acknowledged, but solutions are lacking.  What to do?

The focus is on 'kids' and the young.  Particularly in the military.  At 40 you're old.  Too old.  I know.  Hung in there until age 58 and it darned near wasted me.

For sure things must change.  How to effect that change is the challenge.  So few of our young men are even qualified to serve in the military-mentally, physically or socially.  Is the solution watering down enlistment standards and compromising training to flesh out the force?  Sure, that meets the numbers games.  All the recruiters care about.  Force readiness?  That's a whole nother mother.


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## 1955 (Dec 10, 2022)

ArnoldC said:


> So few of our young men are even qualified to serve in the military-mentally, physically or socially.  Is the solution watering down enlistment standards and compromising training to flesh out the force?  Sure, that meets the numbers games.  All the recruiters care about.  Force readiness?  That's a whole nother mother.


Maybe we should have some minimums for the commander in chief. Lets see, must be 35 and a natural born citizen. Hell even the armed services are more selective.

I think some minimums should be:

Medically Fit
Psychologically Fit
Understand the Constitution
Understand the Chain of Command
At least High School Graduation Preferably College
Some Kind of Government Experience Local/State/Federal
Come on, the most powerful job position in the world with no requirements. Doesn't make sense!


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## Feelslikefar (Dec 10, 2022)

My OP was mostly about the decline in enlistment into the various branches.

The Army will allow you to enlist up to age 35.
That's a lot of time for someone who wants to make a decision to defend their country.
Physical restrictions are few and GED's are honored.

Not a lot of reasons to not serve, in my opinion.

I have noticed that many people who serve 4 years get back to civilian life with few problems.
Most have learned valuable lessons about life and make good employees.
Even those of us who did enough time to retire from the military, had little problem finding a Nitch.

Don't want to sound like a recruiting ad, just stating an opinion about the state of affairs.


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## mrstime (Dec 10, 2022)

Nathan said:


> That's my story, enlisted at 17, shipped to Vietnam at 19...come home with quite an education in life.


DH was 17 when he joined the NAVY, called the Kiddie Cruise because they get out at 21. Thankfully there was no war at that time.


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## Knight (Dec 10, 2022)

helenbacque said:


> Wars are necessary in order to justify the massive military budgets.


So it goes in China & Russia. Iran, No. Korea not far behind. They have large forces & spend money on military readiness. 



helenbacque said:


> Buy enough of Congress and you can do as you wish.


How is America supposed to react to let's say a nuclear missile from No. Korea if money isn't spent? 

Or something like this.
The Russian military says the Kinzhal has a range of up to 2,000 kilometers (1,243 miles) and flies at *10 times the speed of sound*, making it difficult to intercept. Aug 18, 2022

People like phrases so maybe this fits

The best defense is a good offense


The best defense is a good offense - Wikipedia​https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › The_best_defense_is_a...



"The best defense is a good offense" is _an adage that has been applied to many fields of endeavor, including games and military combat_.


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## oldpop (Dec 10, 2022)

Things Must Change​I agree but war seems to be ingrained in our psyche. 

I believe the goal in our society may be perpetual war for financial gains. It does not really matter with whom. It was touched on in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell. Unfortunately many of the events he portrays in his book have rung true in today's world. I will add that this does not detract from the fact that those who have served our country in war and peace deserve our utmost gratitude and respect for their service and they certainly have mine.


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## Been There (Dec 11, 2022)

I served 30 years in the Corps. I got much more back than I gave. With my rank starting at 2nd Lt. and going up from there, I had a lot of men under my command. Many of the young enlisted men and Officers were very worthy of being in the Corps. Some should never had been moved on past basic.

After the Gulf Wars, I attended 4 funerals, 3 of the men had died from suicide. Funerals where the deceased were suicides are for some reason more sorrowful than those funerals that had died by natural causes. I also attended one funeral, an Officer, who died in a motorcycle accident. He was so mangled, the casket lid was not open. As an Officer, it was requested that I attend many of the funerals of men that died while on active duty.

I will never forget the funeral of a young enlisted man who had died in Iraq from stepping on an IED. He had survived for a few days, but because of his many injuries, he did die. His parents were at the funeral and approached me after the service asking if I had any information about his death. I told them what I had read. He was killed just outside of Baghdad while on patrol. He had actually stepped on 1 IED and fell on a second IED. Before he stepped on the first IED, he switched positions with the Marine at the front. Because of that decision he made, he is considered a hero. (I added the last sentence for the parent’s benefit.)


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## Alligatorob (Dec 11, 2022)

Been There said:


> Wars have been going on forever. How are they just going to suddenly stop?


It is true that we are a violent species, however there is hope.  We have managed to get a lot less violent and hopefully will continue that trend.  I don't see a sudden stop, just keep getting better I hope.  From https://slides.ourworldindata.org/war-and-violence/#/title-slide :


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## IKE (Dec 12, 2022)

Don M. said:


> I think every young person who is not physically or mentally disabled should be required to perform a period of military service.


Agree.

I was headed down a bad path when younger but somehow had enough sense to volunteer for the Army when I was 17.......they did a pretty good job of getting my head screwed on straight.


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## Skyking (Dec 16, 2022)

Disgustedman said:


> The price paid, sometimes is too much. I really didn't like us going into Afghanistan,when it was Saudis who did the deed.
> 
> But what got me, was this picture.
> 
> There's nothing in this world, that makes this acceptable.


I get your point, but there are things worth fighting for, just not what we've been involved in since WWII. Congress and Presidents are the problem, along with tin horn dictators who push things too far.


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