# Men are losing their role as primary breadwinners!



## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Women are gaining higher education skills in greater numbers than men.  This allows them to become the main support of families that was traditionally a man's a role. This change in our society is causing stress for both men and women.  I don't think that this shift is a good thing and surely you agree with me...


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2014)

No, I don't agree. In our family the role of primary breadwinner has gone backwards and forwards between husband and wife. At one stage my husband took time off work to study and get over a nervous breakdown. He supported me during the early child bearing years. The same thing has happened in my daughter's marriage. 

At the playgroup at our church we have two stay at home fathers who attend with their children. I haven't been rude enough to ask why but both have wives who work.

Women need good well paid jobs to be able to be the main breadwinner because all to often they end up being the sole provider for their family. The days of all the good jobs going to men are well and truly over.


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## oakapple (Aug 19, 2014)

Don't forget though Ralphy, that sometimes women have to be breadwinners [even if they wish they hadn't got to be.]If they don't have good education they would be stuck in more menial roles. Some women don't want to marry/have a partner and they need the money, others are happily married but love their jobs.Some women are dumped by their husbands and have to seek out a well paid job.Sometimes the husband is ill and the wife must be the breadwinner. All sorts of reasons actually.


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## oakapple (Aug 19, 2014)

Dame Warrigal, we posted at the same time, but you said it better!


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2014)

:goodjob: Great minds think alike, eh Oakey.


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

Why is this shift not a good thing?

These days; women often have to support themselves, and  often their children too.

I have been primary breadwinner since 2000; and the only breadwinner since my husband died in 2007.
what would I have done if I couldn't pay my own way?
rely on the state? Then be called a scrounger?
i don't think so...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Some situations demand that women have to work to support their family.  But you would have to admit, as many women do, that something is lost by not seeing their children's milestones.  Many men, on the other hand, feel something is lost by not having a career...


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

I never missed any milestones; I was lucky enough to work part-time until my children went to secondary school; so I was always there when they were; 
As for men feeling lost without a career; how do you think women have felt....for centuries?


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## Jackie22 (Aug 19, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Women are gaining higher education skills in greater numbers than men.  This allows them to become the main support of families that was traditionally a man's a role. This change in our society is causing stress for both men and women.  I don't think that this shift is a good thing and surely you agree with me...



I disagree, where would the world be without strong women?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Many women would say that being a mother and a homemaker is a full career...


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2014)

That's a joke, Ralphy. As a teacher who often had to contact parents because their children were sick or injured at school, the only ones we could be sure of contacting were the working mothers. The at home mums were mostly out of the house - playing tennis, having their hair done, shopping or having coffee with friends. Homemaking is not a full time career if you are any good at it. 

Good luck to them, I say, but if they should lose their husbands they are often ill prepared for earning enough to make ends meet on their own. Once out of the workforce for any period these days you soon discover yourself out of date; deskilled by advances in technology. It's hard to get back in unless you have been maintaining your professional connections.


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

Then Ralphy, what do you do when your children have left, and you are divorced or widowed....

look back in history; only a generation or two; when women were property; look at domestic violence; from either side; why should anybody be bullied; mentally abused, or owned; by somebody else?

Women need to be independant, or else many of them just sink...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Yes all of the modern conveniences have allowed many housewives to play all day.  But I would hope that some stay home and make their own bread and pies and maybe grow some vegetables and do some canning and that sort of thing.  Oh, and also be home for the kiddies when they come home from school with milk and cookies ready...


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

I picked mine up from school every day until they were 11; I made cakes; did all the cleaning, washing ironing, gardening, doctors dentists, etc etc; but that only lasts 15 to 20 years at most.....then what?


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

My late husband was very proud to describe himself as a kept man.....


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

Sorry, I have made this personal; but I am so grateful to my parents for allowing me the same educational opportunities as my brother; and for allowing me independant thought.
my mother had to give up teacher training just because she got married; so went back when I was 14, qualified, then taught for 15 years.

She still did everything at home; but my Dad often worked away, so was left alone; she needed to do something to keep herself going; and she was still there for us if we needed her; still is.


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## Justme (Aug 19, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Some situations demand that women have to work to support their family.  But you would have to admit, as many women do, that something is lost by not seeing their children's milestones.  Many men, on the other hand, feel something is lost by not having a career...



The thread is remarkably sexist, imo. Men and women are equal, and both should share the bread winning and child raising.


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2014)

> Yes all of the modern conveniences have allowed many housewives to play all day.  But I would hope that some stay home and make their own bread and pies and maybe grow some vegetables and do some canning and that sort of thing.  Oh, and also be home for the kiddies when they come home from school with milk and cookies ready...



But I was crap at all of that and gained no satisfaction from the domestic arts. On the other hand I was very good at raising children.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Well, the empty nest syndrome has been well documented and it depends on your economic circumstances and educational and work background as to what your next "act" could be.  Men face the career challenge all of their lives as their identity is closely woven into it...


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## ClassicRockr (Aug 19, 2014)

Just what "day and age" are you living in?? LOL
This sounds like the old Ozzie & Harriet, Leave It To Beaver and Father Knows Best days........when the wife was always shown wearing a nice dress/hairdo and the father was in a white shirt, tie and dress shoes just hanging around the house. The husband worked in an office all day while the wife took care of the kids and home. It was just weird thinking about the wife dusting the home in a nice dress w/high heels on. LOL

I'm a retired (Social Security) "stay at home Mabel" and my wife loves it. I take care of the laundry and other cleaning things in our apartment. I have the SS income, but it's much lower than my wife's job salary. My wife got her Bachelor's Degree when she was 47 b/c she knew a degree would pay her a better salary.........and it did. 



Ralphy1 said:


> Yes all of the modern conveniences have allowed many housewives to play all day.  But I would hope that some stay home and make their own bread and pies and maybe grow some vegetables and do some canning and that sort of thing.  Oh, and also be home for the kiddies when they come home from school with milk and cookies ready...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Yes, yes, there was some tongue in cheek to part of my reply, and your case proves that a woman can have a second act--and so can you, Maybel!  However, this change starting in the sixties and seventies of changing and blending roles defies biology if men are the nurturers of young children and women are at the office wondering about what they are missing out on...


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## Rainee (Aug 19, 2014)

Gee this makes me different ... I was a stay at home mum .. did all these things.. you say Ralphy and I loved it .. also my husband is one of the old 
timers says its a mans job to keep a woman .. be the breadwinner and he did .. we had 5 children between us , it was a struggle but I never went with out nor the children either.. and I never worked till later years when all the kids had left home , youngest was still at home at 16 attending high school and I started working again at our local hospital.. the school was just down the road from the hospital so she used to come there after school till I was finished and do her homework.. it worked out good for us.. and still now both my husband and I are retired.. he is still the head of the house.. and I respect him for that ... he is not my boss or a slave driver we both share  the chores and its a happy situation...


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## ClassicRockr (Aug 19, 2014)

I do see what you are saying, but today, most of society would really disagree with you. 



Ralphy1 said:


> Yes, yes, there was some tongue in cheek to part of my reply, and your case proves that a woman can have a second act--and so can you, Maybel!  However, this change starting in the sixties and seventies of changing and blending roles defies biology if men are the nurturers of young children and women are at the office wondering about what they are missing out on...


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## Vivjen (Aug 19, 2014)

I feel quite sorry for men who feel their identity is woven into their career.......and women.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Maybe, but the battle of the sexes is still there as some try to blend the sexes...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Men have always built their identity around themselves and it is nothing to feel sorry about, it is just a fact of life...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 19, 2014)

Certainly with both parents playing the corporate game the kids are suffering - this is why our society is so poor these days.

Personally I'd love to be a stay-at-home Dad; in fact, I was for a while. No shame.

We cannot, however, go back to the '60's/'70's model of Mom going back to work after the kids are grown, because now all of those jobs are held by illegals. 

It's a new world and we need a new model.


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## drifter (Aug 19, 2014)

I guess the day of keeping the little woman barefoot and pregnant are over, Ralphy.


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## Kitties (Aug 19, 2014)

I've never been married so I'd better support myself or no one else will. Working in the medical field I've certainly known plenty of women who made more than their husbands. Nurses, therapists. Though their husbands had good jobs. Unfortunately I've also known the women who had the husband or live in who didn't work and she supported everything. If I had to go home to someone like that after an exhausting day at work.... I'll just say I couldn't do it. I applaud anyone who can make it on their own, married or not.

My policy is: If you don't have fur and a tail, I"m not supporting you.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 20, 2014)

A lot of older women say that they don't want to be "a nurse or a purse" after the loss of a husband so would never marry again...


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## Sid (Aug 21, 2014)

drifter said:


> I guess the day of keeping the little woman barefoot and pregnant are over, Ralphy.



    At least it is for me. sigh


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## WhatInThe (Aug 21, 2014)

From personal observation. Not surprising for several reasons including many entry level jobs like retail or hospitality prefer women. Many other businesses prefer women as well, especially moms because they know they will working for their kids as much as anything. This a loyalty card they like to hold over a women's head. Also some places will hire mom returning to workplace after an absence more readily than a male with blank time on their resume. Throw in 'wimpier' men who look for a sugar mama as hard as a women looks for sugar daddy this a natural evolution.


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## KindOfScared (Sep 7, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Women are gaining higher education skills in greater numbers than men.  This allows them to become the main support of families that was traditionally a man's a role. This change in our society is causing stress for both men and women.  I don't think that this shift is a good thing and surely you agree with me...



I am new here. My wife is the breadwinner and I am a stay at home daddy. It has affected my self esteem and my wife goes along with the role but believe you me, it has killed our romantic relationship. I don't know who I am or what to do with myself anymore.


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## Warrigal (Sep 7, 2014)

KindofScared, when you married you each gave an implied promise to be each other's helpmate, through thick or thin. For various reasons over time the nature of the help tends to change. What you are doing now is fulfilling that promise. Give yourself a pat on the back for that. 

You have the privilege of forming really close bonds with your children. You will realise further down the track that this is a blessing, that you are a blessing to your family. 

When I was younger I found being a stay at home really difficult. I became depressed. If that is happening to you I recommend that you find some outlet away from the home - a hobby group, sport or a men's club - so that you can get a break. It will help you keep things in perspective.

Good luck mate, and remember that what you are doing is of the highest value.


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## KindOfScared (Sep 7, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> KindofScared, when you married you each gave an implied promise to be each other's helpmate, through thick or thin. For various reasons over time the nature of the help tends to change. What you are doing now is fulfilling that promise. Give yourself a pat on the back for that.
> 
> You have the privilege of forming really close bonds with your children. You will realise further down the track that this is a blessing, that you are a blessing to your family.
> 
> ...



Thank you Dame Warrigal. I understand what you're saying. But I also understand that the romantic element in my a marriage is dead. And nothing is worse than being frustrated in a lonely marriage.   In addition, I have had more than a few failure in my career path that has effected my own self esteem and the Mrs in me. Don't get me wrong, she never criticizes me. But it's an unspoken reality between us. In another forum everyone is saying I have to work for her to respect me and for me to get my own self respect back. I think they are right. I love being home for the kids. But I am also hurt and scared that I have not worked in years because no one will hire me.   My prayers go unanswered. My attempts are futile. And I am darn tired of it all. Every morning I wake up with the thick cloud over my head feeling this way. Sorry for my negative username.


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## Warrigal (Sep 7, 2014)

You sound depressed, and no wonder. Get help for that first. You may need to get some work to help you do this but it doesn't have to be a top level job. Research says that women are more responsive to a man who helps around the house but you have to value yourself before you can woo her. How long since you had a weekend away together or a holiday? These things are important for both of you.

A week of walking and talking by the seaside or in a mountain retreat can allow you both to re-establish intimacy. It is important to relax and find space for each other. You may also need some relationship counselling too but I recommend dealing with depression first.

Whatever you do, make sure you hang in there. Don't give up.


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## Ina (Sep 7, 2014)

KindOfScared,  Dame Warrigal is right about the taking care of your depression first off. You don't say much about your circumstances, or what part of the world your in, which makes it hard to try and come up with helpful suggestions.
A lot of women go through the "I'm worthless" feeling when they make the decision to home care their families. Try making up a list of what kind of help, and what it would cost your family, if you went back to working in the work force. Add it up. You are providing that much income now. 
If your children are in school, find a part time job, even if it's at your local store bagging groceries, or Jack-in-Box flipping burgers. Add that to what you are already providing by being a stay at home father. Believe me when I say, it counts. 
You need the social contact, and it will also help with the depression.
When you hear young adults say things like, "My mom took care of our family, worked, made sure we went to school, and brought us up as best she could." That is pride your hearing. 
When you start valuing yourself again, it will show even in your bearing, and that could help your marriage. Your wife will see that you are doing the best you can, and that you value yourself.
I hope your circumstances allow for you to change and rebuild your situation.
Many women and men fall into depression when they don't remember that "job" doesn't set their value.
Also remember how many times you've heard, "I just wish my father had been more a part of my life when I was growing up." You have this chance, so look and see the true value you are giving your family. 
Be proud of who you are today, and so will your family. Good luck! :wave:


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 7, 2014)

Yes, you sound pretty depressed to me, as well. People on this forum will give you their ideas/help, but none of us are professionals in counseling. If you have had/are having a hard time finding a job, hopefully your wife would understand..........mine did with no problems. She knew I didn't have the major college/university degree that she does. After using up all of my UI, I ended up having to take "early retirement" thru Social Security. It's not nearly as much as my last salary was, but it's some and my wife is very grateful for that.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 7, 2014)

Highlighted in red below.........Ina has this 100% *RIGHT*!! 
Thanks Ina for telling him that!



Ina said:


> KindOfScared,  Dame Warrigal is right about the taking care of your depression first off. You don't say much about your circumstances, or what part of the world your in, which makes it hard to try and come up with helpful suggestions.
> A lot of women go through the "I'm worthless" feeling when they make the decision to home care their families. Try making up a list of what kind of help, and what it would cost your family, if you went back to working in the work force. Add it up. You are providing that much income now.
> If your children are in school, find a part time job, even if it's at your local store bagging groceries, or Jack-in-Box flipping burgers. Add that to what you are already providing by being a stay at home father. Believe me when I say, it counts.
> You need the social contact, and it will also help with the depression.
> ...


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## oldman (Sep 7, 2014)

My Dad was in the military until I was 25. So, he did 30 years in the Army and then decided it was time to move on. He wasn't going to go any higher in rank and he began to feel not needed, so he says. My Mother was a stay at home Mom until I went into the third grade and then she decided to go to work. As I found out in later years, my Dad supported her doing this, but only after a few hours of discussion. We always had to give our Dad a reason or reasons as to why we did the things we wanted to do or had already done. 'Because' was never a reason. Like, "Why did you take those cookies?" "Because." It wasn't going to work. 

My Dad was an outstanding cabinetmaker and that's the path he took post military. There was a local kitchen manufacturer and installer in our little town and he worked for them. That's back when a lot of wood was hand sawed and sanded. The kitchens that came out of that little company were beautiful. 

Anyway, my Mother did not have a higher education, so she settled for being a clerk in a department store. She ran the house and took care of everything inside. My Dad did the outside work and my sister and I helped out on my Dad's orders. He was harder on me than my sister. I did the usual stuff like mow the grass, take out the trash, help with the shoveling of snow, rake leaves and so on. Basically, anything that Dad didn't want to do was my job. 

I don't know where this story is going. Sorry, I lost my train of thought and ended up rambling. My bad.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 8, 2014)

There is lot of research showing that the role confusion caused by the changes in society in the past few decades has led to the need for counseling as recommended for KindofScared...


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## Warrigal (Sep 8, 2014)

Where are you KOS? Keep talking to us.


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## Butterfly (Sep 23, 2014)

I don't see what earthly difference it makes whether the husband or wife is the main breadwinner.  Or why it is any of our business anyway . . . .


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 23, 2014)

In red below.........because people are curious, like myself. I'm always wondering "why, why, why???" about people and even about myself! LOL



Butterfly said:


> I don't see what earthly difference it makes whether the husband or wife is the main breadwinner.  Or why it is any of our business anyway . . . .


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## QuickSilver (Sep 23, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Some situations demand that women have to work to support their family. But you would have to admit, as many women do, that something is lost by not seeing their children's milestones. Many men, on the other hand, feel something is lost by not having a career...



Why is it ok for Dad to miss the "milestones"... but not mom?   Sorry Ralphy... but this is a pretty sexist post.  I have been a stay at home mom.. and I have worked at low wage jobs..  I, however, went back to school in my late 20's and got a degree..  I have been the primary breadwinner ever since and have more than out earned my husband for the last 20 years.    No one laments over dad not being in the home... why is that?    Ok... I'll answer why... I believe men feel they have lost "control" over the little woman is she gets too independent.   So let's use the kids to lay some guilt on the ladies and get them back where they belong.


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## Warrigal (Sep 23, 2014)

> Ok... I'll answer why... I believe men feel they have lost "control" over the little woman is she gets too independent.   So let's use the kids to lay some guilt on the ladies and get them back where they belong.



That rings a bell with me.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 24, 2014)

And you know that father knows best...


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## Warrigal (Sep 24, 2014)

About what?


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Now don't be silly, about everything of course!


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Wasn't  Mrs. Robinson the role model for what came after the children were grown?


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## Warrigal (Sep 24, 2014)

So, you're saying that mother knows best? At least about some things?


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Well, what's best for her perhaps, but I don't think she sought father's permission in the case of Mrs. Robinson...


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## Warrigal (Sep 24, 2014)

However could she manage without a father to guide her on a daily basis?


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Of course not, she would only get into trouble...


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## Lon (Sep 24, 2014)

Sorry Ralph, I don't agree.


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## Butterfly (Sep 25, 2014)

What century are you in, Ralphy?????  Who cares who brings home the money, as long as the family has enough to live on?  Around my neck of the woods it is very difficult for just one breadwinner to  earn enough to support a family anymore, unless the one is a brain surgeon or movie star or something.  The way prices are going up, it is more and more taking two just to make ends meet, and most women don't even have the choice anymore whether to work or not.  

Back in the '50s, my dad could make enough to decently support a wife and children, but I think those days are long gone most everywhere.  I don't even KNOW any stay-at-home moms, unless they stay at home because they work from home.  

Yeesh!


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 25, 2014)

Butterfly, what you say may be true about having to have two incomes today, but how many like it that way?


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## Butterfly (Sep 26, 2014)

Like it or not, it is the new reality and we have to adapt to it.   Ozzie and Harriet are long dead.


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## MaggieJewel (Sep 29, 2014)

I had a career, but when I got home at night, the "professional" came off and I reverted to the subservient (U.S) southern female that I was raised to be.  Today's generation of men and women do a much better job of sharing the homemaking and parental duties.  Not so back in the day. I tried to be super worker, super wife, and super mom (and have the emotional and mental scars from the effort).


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 29, 2014)

You sound similar to Sissy Spacek in the movie The Long Walk Home...


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