# Dear God, another school shooting?



## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

Will the US ever figure out how to stop our citizens from being slaughtered?


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## Buckeye (May 18, 2018)

I'm seeing that 8 or 10 dead at this point.  Condolences to all the families.


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## RadishRose (May 18, 2018)

The sickening thing is it's schools. We send our children to school; it should be the safest place of all besides the home, but sadly, it's the most dangerous place for children to be now.


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## Don M. (May 18, 2018)

This is getting out of hand.  The day is fast approaching where the schools will have to be on continual lockdown, with guards and metal detectors at the doorways.


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## Traveler (May 18, 2018)

Until we recognize that our children are being influenced to act out their thoughts/feelings, then these horrible acts will continue.


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## ClassicRockr (May 18, 2018)

At least law enforcement has the shooter. Like a previous school shooting, a fire alarm was pulled. Some students couldn't figure out what was going on, because they'd just had a Fire Drill a couple of weeks ago. Some students, on their way outside, were approached and told to run that there was a shooter in the school. One student said he went outside and his Aunt called him and told him there was a shooter in his school. 

One of the wounded is an officer who was armed, but don't know if that officer was originally at the school or called by dispatch to go there. It was also reported that a female student was shot in the leg by the shooter who was armed with a shotgun. 

So, does that mean even if there is an armed officer or officers at school, even they could be shot and not be able to help.

Wonder how many parents today "home school" their kids due to these school shootings. Thing is, someone, parents or tutor, has to do the "home schooling". If it were one of the parents, doesn't that mean the other parent would have to have a darn high salary at work to support the family? Then again, to hire a tutor, it takes money as well...…..quite a bit of money at that.


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## WhatInThe (May 18, 2018)

It's that time of the year, last chance for revenge. Those that had trouble dealing with reality apparently were able to handle a calendar and clock. They did it at the start of the school day which means they could not wait to get 'it' done. The early morning scenario is frequently the jilted/jealous spouse or lover which is what I thought when the story first broke. 

What's a little different here is two suspects and bombs. That's even worse because others knew something was coming. It's early and will see how this pans out.

RIP victims speed recovery to survivors.


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## ClassicRockr (May 18, 2018)

Just reported that bombs were found at the school and other areas. One suspect in custody and a "person of interest" detained and being interviewed. The shooter is a student at the school and 17 years old. It was reported by a student that the gunman had USSR on the back of his coat. Since that student said that to CNN, nothing be reported about it. Just reported on HLN, the shooter was wearing a trench coat and had a sawed off shotgun and handgun.

Another report.....students said this student was known and had significant body odor and was made "fun of" by students and some teachers. ​


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## Traveler (May 18, 2018)

Latest report, 10 dead.


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## ClassicRockr (May 18, 2018)

Ok, is part of the major problem of some students being bullied and pushed so far as to do these terrible things? Just what does this say about the students that teased and/or bullied this student?


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## C'est Moi (May 18, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Ok, is part of the major problem of some students being bullied and pushed so far as to do these terrible things? Just what does this say about the students that teased and/or bullied this student?



Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.


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## C'est Moi (May 18, 2018)

Local Houston news stations are reporting 9 confirmed dead.   Santa Fe is between Houston and Galveston, so only about 40 miles from here.


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## Falcon (May 18, 2018)

These  creeps  who shoot up schools are nothing more  than cowards,   +  being  idiots !


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## C'est Moi (May 18, 2018)

17 year old ID'd as shooter   https://heavy.com/news/2018/05/dimitrios-pagourtzis/.


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## Traveler (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.




Totally agree.  I would also add that electronic "killer games" play a role and, of course, kids who isolate themselves. There is no one single factor, but rather a "witches brew" of factors.


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## BobF (May 18, 2018)

Pretty sad that these events keep coming.   No reason for such actions to take place anyway.   Has any of these events ever taken place a second time?   If not, why not.

We need to take responsibility for students ongoing safety and apply some real fear of fast retaliation for such actions.   Let it be known that there is staff ready to fight back in cases of these gun fights.   Does the staff need guns?    Not at all, but it would sure be helpful.  The resistance should always be quick and forceful.   Rumor of a possible mess should be brought out and discussed openly.   Parents brought in to face these charges and hope that they will get involved with their kids.

Why are there no repeats at previous situations?   I don't know but can only guess.   One guess would only be fodder for others to use in put downs.

The gun haters are not doing any good at all so far.   Hating guns will do nothing for ending explosives or the use of  knives.   Discipline at the schools and at home might help.

Anyone know why it is happening?    That may be the clue we are always missing.


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## Eric (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.


RIP to all the dead.  You're right about the spoiled brats being raised with no parental or teacher guidance or role models.  This will keep on happening because everyone is dumbfounded each time it does but they don't do a damn thing to avoid the next one.  Everybody knew that kid was pissed and bullied and he wrote warning signs on social media again that were ignored.  Were there armed security guards in the building?  I don't think so because the number of dead would not be 10.  Was there any added steps for security in that school since the start of all these shootings like dedicated monitored entrance, don't think so.  If they keep on making the schools soft targets <gun free zones> and they keep feeding these kids stupid pills from the doctor starting in elementary school up to high school, shit will keep on happening.  I don't know if this brat was on those loco pills but I won't be surprised if he was most of them are.


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## Shalimar (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.


I think it takes more than being coddled to produce a mass murderer. I suspect there are mental illness issues here. Usually, these kids exhibit odd behaviour long before they kill. Complex problem. Fact is, presently, mental health professionals and profilers don’t really have all the answers re what sets these kids off.


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## Shalimar (May 18, 2018)

My heart goes out to the victims and all those involved.


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## BobF (May 18, 2018)

Eric said:


> RIP to all the dead.  You're right about the spoiled brats being raised with no parental or teacher guidance or role models.  This will keep on happening because everyone is dumbfounded each time it does but they don't do a damn thing to avoid the next one.  Everybody knew that kid was pissed and bullied and he wrote warning signs on social media again that were ignored.  Were there armed security guards in the building?  I don't think so because the number of dead would not be 10.  Was there any added steps for security in that school since the start of all these shootings like dedicated monitored entrance, don't think so.  If they keep on making the schools soft targets <gun free zones> and they keep feeding these kids stupid pills from the doctor starting in elementary school up to high school, shit will keep on happening.  I don't know if this brat was on those loco pills but I won't be surprised if he was most of them are.



I watched long hours of the follow up interviews.   I think I did hear that their were two officers assigned to this high school.   If so, that is not the best way to go as 10 is a rather large number of dead.   What was their activity?   How fast did they get into action?    I think one of the problems is a patrolman was badly injured or killed.

Yes, it does seem to be mental problems over and over.   That should be a good warning for future events.    Nothing wrong with good follow up for learning more and a chance for alerting the parents of what may be a hidden turn in a child's thinking.


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## WhatInThe (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.



I think the big difference now is social media so the bullying doesn't stay at school or with the bullies & friends. The intensity and volume of people involved increases with social media because remarks that were just verbal remarks decades ago are permanent for all to see including the victim(sounds like he had one reminder too many).


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## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.



Other westernized countries have similar cultural values but don't seem to share the same mass shooting problems.  What in the world might the US be doing differently, I wonder?  Never mind, most of us already know the answer to that question.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and "participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement.



Agree about the bullying but murderous revenge is not a universal response. 
Who gave this kid a gun in the first place?


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Other westernized countries have similar cultural values but don't seem to share the same mass shooting problems.  What in the world might the US be doing differently, I wonder?  Never mind, most of us already know the answer to that question.



qft 

Twenty-two  school shooting in US this year. So far.


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## Falcon (May 18, 2018)

As I mentioned  before  about a different  SlimeBall,  THIS  slimeball  should be  WATER BOARDED  for  EACH  of his  victims !

Maybe it will  give some future  slimeball  to  think twice about killing  innocent  people; Young or Old.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

Falcon said:


> As I mentioned  before  about a different  SlimeBall,  THIS  slimeball  should be  WATER BOARDED  for  EACH  of his  victims !
> 
> Maybe it will  give some future  slimeball  to  think twice about killing  innocent  people; Young or Old.



Why not just display their severed heads on the school gates?

Seriously, isn't revenge part of the problem with these mass murders?


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## Falcon (May 18, 2018)

Severing a head after a crime is  too late.  It should be done  BEFORE  the creep  is decapitated !

It pays to plan  ahead !


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

Everything after the slaughter of school children is too late but it is still not too late to get behind those students who want to prevent future deaths. Their voices should not be ignored, nor should they be dismissed.

http://www.newsweek.com/parkland-da...chool-shooting-gun-control-politicians-934305


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## chic (May 18, 2018)

Maybe it's time for home schooling since nothing is being done to protect students in the U.S.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

> Maybe it's time for home schooling since nothing is being done to protect students in the U.S.



That might have worked for Thomas Edison but is this the really the best way to educate young people for the complexities of the 21st century? 

Time to face the problem - it's causes, what allows it to keep happening and what needs to be done, what sacrifices need to be made, to eliminate this social scourge.

After Parkland people said that it was not time to talk about this problem because grief was too raw. When will it be time ? Will every household have to have a child gunned down before it is time to start a serious national conversation ?


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## RadishRose (May 18, 2018)

I've been saying this for years; There's a mental illness spreading among many of our young men and there's nothing we can do about it. It's an insanity- is it genetic, emotional?  I don't know, but it seems to be epidemic now, It's almost like a Stephan King horror story!

Keeping guns away from these people doesn't restore their sanity. You still have a crazy person running around using weaker methods to kill, but they will still kill. It has to go back the cause.


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## Falcon (May 18, 2018)

True  Chic,  BUT  there are some folks who don't really have  the qualifications  to  teach every  subject.

I'll betcha you know a few  who would  never qualify for  YOUR  kids.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

Sorry, RR, but I see that as a deflection. This problem has to be tackled head on. And boldly.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

There are times when it terrifies me to live in the US.  I avoid crowds whenever possible because of the type of thoughts that pop up in my mind.  Thoughts like, it's the week before Christmas and this Costco entrance/exit area is jammed to the max.  If some guy (it's nearly always a guy) had an automatic assault-type weapon under his coat and started sweeping the crowd with bullets, what would I do?  Where would I go?  Would I lie on the ground and pretend to be dead?  Try running?  Hope to hide in Costco?  

Being in fear is a terrible way to live, my friends.  People should not have easy means to slaughter large numbers pf other humans in less than a minute.  It's just not right.


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## BobF (May 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Agree about the bullying but murderous revenge is not a universal response.
> Who gave this kid a gun in the first place?



Those guns were his fathers legal ownership guns.   Maybe if his sons wild actions and ways of dressing were known by all, including his father, then maybe this day of killing would not have happened.

Interesting interview this day was information about the shooters way of dressing.   He always wore a long coat, that could hide the weapons of his choice.

Dress codes for schools might be good thinking.


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## BobF (May 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> That might have worked for Thomas Edison but is this the really the best way to educate young people for the complexities of the 21st century?
> 
> Time to face the problem - it's causes, what allows it to keep happening and what needs to be done, what sacrifices need to be made, to eliminate this social scourge.
> 
> After Parkland people said that it was not time to talk about this problem because grief was too raw. When will it be time ? Will every household have to have a child gunned down before it is time to start a serious national conversation ?



The talking does go on.   For example one of the police protector types talked about the lack of police for every school.   In Texas alone, he said their were thousands of schools to protect and police on every entrance would be just as large plus all other entrances would still be open and unprotected.   His comments went on to a 'locked down' system being developed.   All but a minimum number of doors would be locked.   Accessible for emergency exit uses but coming in required permission through monitored entrances only.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

Well, that is the solution I never thought of before - CHANGE THE DRESS CODE.
As well as transparent back packs the students will soon be wearing transparent outer garments for the safety of all.

Get real Bob, and stop making excuses that demonstrate that, like the politicians hoping to be re-elected, few people give a shit about the number of dead people, including slaughtered children.

Twenty-two  school shootings this year. 
How many deaths is that? 
How many more before Christmas comes around again?


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## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

Gee... if only there were a simpler solution.  Maybe one that other countries have successfully implemented.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

BobF said:


> The talking does go on.   For example one of the police protector types talked about the lack of police for every school.   In Texas alone, he said their were thousands of schools to protect and police on every entrance would be just as large plus all other entrances would still be open and unprotected.   His comments went on to a 'locked down' system being developed.   All but a minimum number of doors would be locked.   Accessible for emergency exit uses but coming in required permission through monitored entrances only.



Another deflection. And unworkable. To catch a plane these days you need to be checking in at least two hours before takeoff. How long do you think it would take to screen a high school population of 1,200 students going through security?


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## Stormy (May 18, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Keeping guns away from these people doesn't restore their sanity. You still have a crazy person running around using weaker methods to kill, but they will still kill. It has to go back the cause.


Radishrose you are spot on because it has much more to do with the killer than the weapon. These kids are over medicated and out of their minds and they have emotional problems that can't be solved with a pill or they're just haters. Don't listen to the "deflection" critics. You notice they eagerly appear out of nowhere when they hear of their FAVORITE news story another shooting in US while we mourn our losses. They don't show any sympathy for the dead but they are quick to shame us and our country and our friends here. They love to wag their fingers at the US from their perceived perch and their only agenda is extreme gun control like they have bowed down to where they live. BobF I say this to you too, don't be scolded by the eager outsiders. And starsong I'm not afraid at all to live in my country, if I was I'd move somewhere else like Mexico, Australia or maybe China. That's all I've got to say


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## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

Stormy, you'd move to Mexico?  Talk about going from the frying pan to the fire.  Canada would be on the top of my list if my kids were willing to relocate (and at least one is considering it because of the US gun violence - she's a teacher).  Australia is also a good choice.  

It has to do with the killer AND the weapons.  The gun-worshiping culture in much of the US only adds to the equation.  Some state things like, "If you want my gun you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands."  Really?  Prizing the ability to wield deadly force over another human is more valued than one's own life?  I could see someone saying that about their children, but about their weapons?


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## RadishRose (May 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Sorry, RR, but I see that as a deflection. This problem has to be tackled head on. And boldly.



Warrigal,  I understand what you're saying but I believe the *root* to to be mental illness. I have no reason to want deflection of anything. I'll be glad to agree to disagree.... I guess it's like the which came first, the chicken or the egg.


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## Ruthanne (May 18, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Everything after the slaughter of school children is too late but it is still not too late to get behind those students who want to prevent future deaths. Their voices should not be ignored, nor should they be dismissed.
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/parkland-da...chool-shooting-gun-control-politicians-934305


I agree with you Warri.


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## Aunt Bea (May 18, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> I've been saying this for years; There's a mental illness spreading among many of our young men and there's nothing we can do about it. It's an insanity- is it genetic, emotional? I don't know, but it seems to be epidemic now, It's almost like a Stephan King horror story!
> 
> Keeping guns away from these people doesn't restore their sanity. You still have a crazy person running around using weaker methods to kill, but they will still kill. It has to go back the cause.



I've wondered if it could be partly due to the internet.

When I was growing up we lived in a 'good neighborhood', we had to be old enough to drive in order to get to a 'bad neighborhood' and sample all it had to offer. Today kids can go to any neighborhood in the world and indulge in anything they fancy with the click of a mouse or the touch of a screen.

I believe that the anonymity offered by the internet has emboldened some folks and allowed their anti-social behaviors to fester until they begin acting out.

I think the isolation/solitary confinement that some young people experience while living with this relatively new technology is beginning to take a toll.

I wish I knew the answer.


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## Keesha (May 18, 2018)

StarSong said:


> The gun-worshiping culture in much of the US only adds to the equation.  Some state things like, "If you want my gun you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands."  Really?  Prizing the ability to wield deadly force over another human is more valued than one's own life?  I could see someone saying that about their children, but about their weapons?




R.i.p. for those who lost their lives. 

That picture Rockr posted with the ‘girl’ proudly carrying the automatic weapon keeps flashing through my mind. 
If kids are being taught this line of thinking , should we be so shocked by this outcome?
She was wearing a deadly weapon like it was the latest fashion statement. Glamouring gun ownership ! 

Most school shootings in Canada have been  due to students with mental disorders getting their hands on deadly weapons.

I don’t have a solution but I can’t help thinking there’s possibly a connection.


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## Keesha (May 18, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I've wondered if it could be partly due to the internet.
> 
> When I was growing up we lived in a 'good neighborhood', we had to be old enough to drive in order to get to a 'bad neighborhood' and sample all it had to offer. Today kids can go to any neighborhood in the world and indulge in anything they fancy with the click of a mouse or the touch of a screen.
> 
> ...



I too think it has a huge impact. Modern technology has its downside for sure.


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## Warrigal (May 18, 2018)

I apologise for being a stone in the shoe.
I hope I am wrong and that there will be no more school shootings before Christmas.


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## Shalimar (May 18, 2018)

Stormy said:


> Radishrose you are spot on because it has much more to do with the killer than the weapon. These kids are over medicated and out of their minds and they have emotional problems that can't be solved with a pill or they're just haters. Don't listen to the "deflection" critics. You notice they eagerly appear out of nowhere when they hear of their FAVORITE news story another shooting in US while we mourn our losses. They don't show any sympathy for the dead but they are quick to shame us and our country and our friends here. They love to wag their fingers at the US from their perceived perch and their only agenda is extreme gun control like they have bowed down to where they live. BobF I say this to you too, don't be scolded by the eager outsiders. And starsong I'm not afraid at all to live in my country, if I was I'd move somewhere else like Mexico, Australia or maybe China. That's all I've got to say



Excuse me, but I resent the assumption that those of us who live in countries with strict gun control have “bowed down” to anything, and are heartless pushers of a no gun ideology. I live in Canada, we have strict gun laws. I feel huge compassion for the American dead and injured, I am not eager 

to shame anyone, nor do I place myself above others, American or otherwise. I mourn for the American people, and I sincerely wish them success in dealing with this terrible blight. If the non American posters question the status quo in America, it is out of concern, not some gleeful enjoyment of the pain and suffering currently going on. To suggest otherwise is unfairly maligning people from other countries.


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## Keesha (May 18, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Excuse me, but I resent your assumption that those of us who live in countries with strict gun control have “bowed down” to anything, and are heartless pushers of a no gun ideology. I live in Canada, we have strict gun laws. I feel huge compassion for the American dead and injured, I am not eager
> 
> to shame anyone, nor do I place myself above others, American or otherwise. I mourn for the American people, and I sincerely wish them success in dealing with this terrible blight. If the non American posters question the status quo in America, it is out of concern, not some gleeful enjoyment of the pain and suffering currently going on. To suggest otherwise is unfairly maligning people from other countries.



Thank you Shalimar. You are a much better communicator than I am but I share your thoughts.

We might not share the same country but we do share the same  pain .


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## Shalimar (May 18, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Thank you Shalimar. You are a much better communicator than I am but I share your thoughts.
> We might not share the same country but we do share the same  pain .


We do, indeed. Who does not weep for the death and wounding of innocent children?


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## Gary O' (May 18, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Teasing and bullying has been around since teenagers were invented.   There is something seriously wrong with society today, and I believe the problem begins at home.   Coddled, spoiled and *"participation trophies" give today's youth a false sense of entitlement*.



Boy, that has got to come into play somewhere


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## C'est Moi (May 18, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Boy, that has got to come into play somewhere


I am reminded of the Dorothy Nolte poem, "Children Learn What They Live."   http://www.blinn.edu/socialscience/ldthomas/feldman/handouts/0801hand.htm

I suppose there is no single answer to what has gone wrong in America, but the disintegration of family, irresponsibility, entitlement and social media have all got to be part of the recipe for disaster.   The large question is what do we do now?


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## SeaBreeze (May 18, 2018)

Another sad tragedy.  May the victims rest peacefully, my sympathy to the families and the survivors.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2018)

Here's a staggering statistic I just read from the Washington Post.  More students have died in school shootings in 2018 than members of the US military have died while serving this year, and that includes combat and non-combat deaths.  
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-than-service-members/?utm_term=.2f60ab969595 

If that doesn't get America's attention, I don't know what will.


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## WhatInThe (May 19, 2018)

*more precision and intent here*

The killer spared people he liked so they could tell his story. 4 pipe bombs found around the school and couple at is home. The shootings were in an art class. The killer yelled "Surprise". A second suspect was taken into custody.

  The teenage/now adult killer used a shotgun which ment he had to pick out his victims taking his time, aiming and firing with much more intent and purpose than more recent mass school killings.

https://www.sfgate.com/technology/b...ool-gunman-reportedly-yelled-out-12927411.php


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## chic (May 19, 2018)

Falcon said:


> True  Chic,  BUT  there are some folks who don't really have  the qualifications  to  teach every  subject.
> 
> I'll betcha you know a few  who would  never qualify for  YOUR  kids.



I was thinking that kids could be educated via computers by qualified teachers while safely at home. Like teleconferencing. We can now receive college degrees online, so why not high school or middle school as well.


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## maxHR (May 19, 2018)

Sandy Hook was the fork in the road.
America took the wrong fork. doomed.
    How can a society so blithely sacrifice their children in the dogged determination to keep the right to bear arms?


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

I don't have *the *answer but there are two things I'm sure of,  A.) there have always been a surplus of guns in America and B.) there have always been mentally ill.  Yet these mass shootings are a relatively new phenomenon in America. 

Therefore, I think we must look at every other possible explanation. Some of which are listed

1.)  Access to everything on the internet. Some very bizarre stuff out there. 
2.)  Playing violent games ie "killer" games. *And*, watching ultra-violent movies
3.)  No one at home to supervise these kids
4.)  Cell phones, where kids can bully others long distance.
5.)  When we were growing up we had chores/jobs to help keep us busy. Is that true today ? (I don't know)

As readers ponder the above, ask yourselves how *your *teenage years compared with todays teens.

I think many, perhaps most of us, spend a great deal of spare time at our friends houses listening to 45 rpm records of early rock and roll. Our idea of being really "bad" was playing spin the bottle. Very, very few of us ever even heard about drugs and certainly never did them (at least those of us age 70 plus).

Personally, I lean in favor of #3 as a major contributing factor.


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## StarSong (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't have *the *answer but there are two things I'm sure of,  A.) there have always been a surplus of guns in America and B.) there have always been mentally ill.  Yet these mass shootings are a relatively new phenomenon in America.
> 
> Therefore, I think we must look at every other possible explanation. Some of which are listed
> 
> ...



Children in virtually every first world country grow up with all five of these factors, but only in the US do our children slaughter one another.  Gun violence in the US is beyond out of control - among adults as well as children.  The statistics are staggering. 

The difference is the volume and types of weapons easily available here versus those other countries.


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## Butterfly (May 19, 2018)

I think at least part of the problem is that children are not taught from a young age how to deal with and respond to their anger, frustration, etc.  From an early age many of them are being told they are special and that they can have/achieve anything they want, they get trophies for just showing up, and they believe that they have some kind of god given right to experience a life completely free of disappointment, frustration etc., and not coming in first in everything.  When they discover this is a load of BS, some of them can't handle it and explode in rage and feel they have the right to kill or maim everyone who has treated them "unfairly."  I think many of these school shootings are basically deadly mega temper tantrums and outrage at the world which has not treated them as special, and has thwarted their desires to get anything they want and be universally liked by everyone.

When I was a child I was clearly taught what was and was not an acceptable way to deal with anger and frustration and disappointment, and exploding in vicious rage was not one of those acceptable ways.  I was also taught that I had no right to expect perfection in my life, and that life most decidedly was not fair, that I was intrinsically no better or worse than anyone else and that some people would like me and some would not and that whether I liked that or not it was the way the mop flopped.  

I was also taught that I had absolutely no right to inflict violence on anyone or anything, save in defense against violence.


----------



## Gary O' (May 19, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I think at least part of the problem is that children are not taught from a young age how to deal with and respond to their anger, frustration, etc.  From an early age many of them are being told they are special and that they can have/achieve anything they want, they get trophies for just showing up, and they believe that they have some kind of god given right to experience a life completely free of disappointment, frustration etc., and not coming in first in everything.  When they discover this is a load of BS, some of them can't handle it and explode in rage and feel they have the right to kill or maim everyone who has treated them "unfairly."  I think many of these school shootings are basically deadly mega temper tantrums and outrage at the world which has not treated them as special, and has thwarted their desires to get anything they want and be universally liked by everyone.
> 
> When I was a child I was clearly taught what was and was not an acceptable way to deal with anger and frustration and disappointment, and exploding in vicious rage was not one of those acceptable ways.  I was also taught that I had no right to expect perfection in my life, and that life most decidedly was not fair, that I was intrinsically no better or worse than anyone else and that some people would like me and some would not and that whether I liked that or not it was the way the mop flopped.
> 
> I was also taught that I had absolutely no right to inflict violence on anyone or anything, save in defense against violence.



Boy, that's a good post

It's gotta have some credence to this horrific dilemma


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## Gary O' (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't have *the *answer but there are two things I'm sure of,  A.) there have always been a surplus of guns in America and B.) there have always been mentally ill.  Yet these mass shootings are a relatively new phenomenon in America.
> 
> Therefore, I think we must look at every other possible explanation. Some of which are listed
> 
> ...



I think #5 is a huge one
Heh, chores
after a kid is done, he's got less play in him


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't have *the *answer but there are two things I'm sure of,  A.) there have always been a surplus of guns in America and B.) there have always been mentally ill.  Yet these mass shootings are a relatively new phenomenon in America.





StarSong said:


> Children in virtually every first world country grow up with all five of these factors, but only in the US do our children slaughter one another.  Gun violence in the U.S. is beyond out of control.
> 
> The difference is the volume and types of weapons easily available here versus those other countries.



I disagree, StarSong.  The recent Texas killer used a *shotgun*. They have been WIDELY available for well over a hundred years. Pistols much longer than that. If the major problem was too many guns, then we should have seen school shootings throughout our history. But, we don't.

In any event, what do you propose ? Banning all guns ? That, ma'am, is never, ever going to happen. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not in a hundred years. (unless we have a leftist dictatorship).
Guns don't just pick themselves up, walk out of the house, and start killing people. 
A certain percentage of kids are the killers and *we MUST look at why  - not how. *


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## StarSong (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I disagree, StarSong.  The recent Texas killer used a *shotgun*. They have been WIDELY available for well over a hundred years. Pistols much longer than that. If the major problem was too many guns, then we should have seen school shootings throughout our history. But, we don't.
> 
> In any event, what do you propose ? Banning all guns ? That, ma'am, is never, ever going to happen. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not in a hundred years. (unless we have a leftist dictatorship).
> Guns don't just pick themselves up, walk out of the house, and start killing people.
> A certain percentage of kids are the killers and *we MUST look at why  - not how. *



Yes, in this case the deranged shooter used weapons other than the typical AR-15 (or similar weapon).  

I'm not suggesting that all guns be banned.  Nevertheless, it is beyond time for Americans to have a serious conversation about dramatically reducing the 35,000 annual gun deaths in the US each year.  I'm more than ready to have that conversation and to elect representatives who will start limiting private ownership of military grade weapons.  It's also time to hold people responsible for the damage wreaked by the weapons they own.  

Sending thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families are cold, empty comfort.


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## Sunny (May 19, 2018)

Interesting discussion about a tragic situation. I don't think there is any one answer, but you all have touched on a number of valid points. Trying to figure out what has changed to cause this epidemic, I think a lot of things have changed, and some bad things of the past have continued, creating a "perfect storm" leading to gun violence by kids.

We've always had stupid, uncaring, inept, overburdened, or cruel parents. This is not new.

We've always had some kids who were unsupervised, more so today.

We've always had violent games involving shooting. Toy guns were more prevalent in the past than they are now.

Violent video games are newer, but there have always been violent arcade games.

There is probably an element of copycat crimes in all this.

Probably the only way to prevent any more of these school shootings is to have one well-guarded entrance to each school, with the same kind of security checks used in many other public buldings.  (Why is it easier for an armed person to walk into a school than to walk into a sports venue, a rock concert, a museum, a government building? Are the children considered less important?)


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## StarSong (May 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Interesting discussion about a tragic situation. I don't think there is any one answer, but you all have touched on a number of valid points. Trying to figure out what has changed to cause this epidemic, I think a lot of things have changed, and some bad things of the past have continued, creating a "perfect storm" leading to gun violence by kids.
> 
> We've always had stupid, uncaring, inept, overburdened, or cruel parents. This is not new.
> 
> ...



If we guard an entrance to a school with metal detectors, would-be shooters can simply wait in the parking lot until crowds form ten minutes before the bell or five minutes after dismissal.  Or they'll hit classmates at a popular hang-out location after school, or during a football game.  Or, or, or.  If someone has the motive and the means, they can find the opportunity.     

The question that persists for me, Sunny, is why the US statistically has so much more gun violence than fellow first world countries with otherwise similar cultural patterns, but that don't permit military grade types of weapons in private hands that we do, nor do they have the sheer volume of guns per capita.  Or have I answered my own question?


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## fmdog44 (May 19, 2018)

Why is it that a kid can be capable of such acts but his parents say they never saw it coming? Now, we are not talking the kid went out and beat up a kid rather to go out and slaughter many and in some cases kill himself. It is hard to believe this is something that parents did not concern themselves for not sensing something off the norm with the kids behavior.
      We should take the numbers on how many internet and or video killings the kids see every single day starting at very young ages including movies and TV. "Ultraviolence is the daily dose now. We have to see brains coming out, dismemberments, blood splattering everywhere, rapes, etc. Years back these things were implied not shown in detail.  In WWII the decision was made to show the American human death toll on the beaches of Normandy. After the theaters showed the horrible scenes military recruiting plummeted. So we cannot dismiss the impact of what our kids are absorbing every day.
     Fathers are now the dummies of the family instead of the head of the family and the term "single parent" is the new norm. Police used to carry only a 38 cl. six shooter now they cannot be distinguished for a fully armed combat military person. Letting our kids sit behind the computer for 8-12 hours a day is no different from not have them home at night for the same mount of time. We are simply witnessing the formula for this behavior proving itself to be true over and over. 
    Get used to this if you are not already for this is the new American youth.


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> why is it that a kid can be capable of such acts but his parents say they never saw it coming? Now, we are not talking the kid went out and beat up a kid rather to go out and slaughter many and in some cases kill himself. It is hard to believe this is something that parents did not concern themselves for not sensing something off the norm with the kids behavior.
> We should take the numbers on how many internet and or video killings the kids see every single day starting at very young ages including movies and tv. "ultraviolence is the daily dose now. We have to see brains coming out, dismemberments, blood splattering everywhere, rapes, etc. Years back these things were implied not shown in detail.  In wwii the decision was made to show the american human death toll on the beaches of normandy. After the theaters showed the horrible scenes military recruiting plummeted. So we cannot dismiss the impact of what our kids are absorbing every day.*
> fathers are now the dummies of the family instead of the head of the family and the term "single parent" is the new norm.* police used to carry only a 38 cl. Six shooter now they cannot be distinguished for a fully armed combat military person. Letting our kids sit behind the computer for 8-12 hours a day is no different from not have them home at night for the same mount of time. We are simply witnessing the formula for this behavior proving itself to be true over and over.
> Get used to this if you are not already for this is the new american youth.




bingo !


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## Camper6 (May 19, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Ok, is part of the major problem of some students being bullied and pushed so far as to do these terrible things? Just what does this say about the students that teased and/or bullied this student?



It's says you are blaming the victims instead of the shooter.


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## Camper6 (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> bingo !



Hold your cards.  What about safe storage of weapons?  The father is an NRA guy.

How did the kid get the guns? Whoever bought the guns should be charged with the responsibility of keeping them safe or he should be prosecuted.

The Second Amendment says nothing about safe storage of arms.  The NRA can't use that as an excuse.


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

Sunny said:


> We've always had some kids who were unsupervised, more so today.
> 
> We've always had violent games involving shooting. Toy guns were more prevalent in the past than they are now.
> 
> Violent video games are newer, but there have always been violent arcade games.




Sunny, sorry to disagree BUT, 

1.) The numbers of unsupervised children has increased a thousand fold.

2.) We can not possibly compare the toy guns of the past with the violent games of today. The ULTRA- VIOLENT ULTRA-REALISTIC games of today are, in fact, altering our kids minds. To compare the toy cap guns of yesteryear or the silly arcade games of our youth, with the ultra realistic, ultra bloody games of today is like comparing Gary Grant kissing Vivian Leigh to XXX porn. We can say both involve sexuality, but XXX porn is dramatically different.

Wait. Now that I think about it, there were no arcade games in MY youth, just pinball machines.


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Hold your cards.  What about safe storage of weapons?  The father is an NRA guy.
> 
> How did the kid get the guns? Whoever bought the guns should be charged with the responsibility of keeping them safe or he should be prosecuted.
> 
> The Second Amendment says nothing about safe storage of arms.  The NRA can't use that as an excuse.




These are good points.  I would advocate for that.  I was thinking the same thing this morning.


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## StarSong (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> These are good points.  I would advocate for that.  I was thinking the same thing this morning.



I would, too.


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## Butterfly (May 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> It's says you are blaming the victims instead of the shooter.



I agree.  While I despise bullying, it does not justify mass murder in response.  The shooter is solely responsible for his actions in this.


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## Granny B. (May 19, 2018)

So apparently the kid is 17 yrs old and the guns belong to his father.  I say charge the father with murder as well, or at least accessory to murder.  If you have guns and you have kids then you have the obligation to keep the guns out the hands of your children, especially your mentally disturbed children—you're probably the reason they are messed up in the first place.


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## C'est Moi (May 19, 2018)

Granny B. said:


> So apparently the kid is 17 yrs old and the guns belong to his father.  I say charge the father with murder as well, or at least accessory to murder.  If you have guns and you have kids then you have the obligation to keep the guns out the hands of your children, especially your mentally disturbed children—you're probably the reason they are messed up in the first place.



Well, I totally disagree with you.   The "kid" is practically grown and is being charged as an adult.   Let's let him be responsible and pay for his own actions.


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## Camper6 (May 19, 2018)

Don M. said:


> This is getting out of hand.  The day is fast approaching where the schools will have to be on continual lockdown, with guards and metal detectors at the doorways.



My suggestion is guard dogs as well.


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## Aunt Bea (May 19, 2018)

According to some statistics we have 50 million public school children in the United States. 

That is more than the entire population of Canada or Austrailia and about 20% less than the combined total. 

I agree that no kid should ever be in danger or live in fear while attending a public school but I'm a little concerned about the money being spent across the country on things that may not do any good. 

I'm afraid that this will become similar to the money spent on Homeland Security. Today HS has an annual budget of 47 billion dollars and I'm not at all sure that we are any safer today than we were 15 years ago.

I realize that it is impossible to put a price on a child's life but I can't help but feel that we are allowing the Bogeyman to drive these policies and we will never be able to get a handle on what if any difference it has made to the safety of our schools.

I don't know how we will ever be able to stop random attacks and I'm not sure that throwing money at it will do any good.


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## Warrigal (May 19, 2018)

I want to know how a sawn off shotgun is considered a legal firearm.


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## Warrigal (May 19, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Sunny, sorry to disagree BUT,
> 
> 1.) The numbers of unsupervised children has increased a thousand fold.
> 
> ...



And we now know about brain plasticity. The male brain is not fully developed until mid twenties and absorption in any activity, whether it is watching porn or playing violent video computer games does produce changes in brain structure. This is why young men are easy targets for radicalisation. They do need responsible men in their lives at this vulnerable time.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 19, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Will the US ever figure out how to stop our citizens from being slaughtered?





Hoot N Annie said:


> I'm seeing that 8 or 10 dead at this point.  Condolences to all the families.



And that wasn't the last shooting. Just last night another one took place after a graduation at a school in Georgia.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/1...shooting-leaves-1-dead-1-hurt-police-say.html
This is very disturbing...the new norm! It's terrifying and sad. My prayers go out to all who have lost loved ones. These children who witnessed the horror will suffer with PTSD and I don't know how they can ever feel safe in a classroom again.


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## Aunt Bea (May 19, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I want to know how a sawn off shotgun is considered a legal firearm.



It depends on the state laws and it gets confusing when each state starts talking about barrel length vs overall weapon length, weapon modifications, handgun vs long gun, etc...

https://blog.uslawshield.com/a-long-discussion-on-short-barreled-shotguns/


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## BobF (May 19, 2018)

Many folks have taken a better look at what is our problem.   Mental problems for many folks and some just darn poor training about how to live with others and how to manage our own personal hurts.

Also other are saying how terrible the US is, I won't argue that.   But for them to say so many of our neighbor countries never have near as much shooting as the US.   This is an outright lie.   We have a country in Europe that not only gives all its people weapons to have at home for self defence and for their military years.    When done with their military they can choose to keep the weapon at home for their own gun club activities.

Certainly not a bunch of kill crazy folks in Switzerland.   They believe that training from very young and onward is right way to go.   On the other hand the US is afraid to support gun clubs and train folks wiith respect for others ways.   Instead we blame guns for the twisted minds of the gun operators.    

That is where the problem lies, in the heads of the shooters as the gun alone has no will or mind to kill.


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## StarSong (May 19, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> According to some statistics we have 50 million public school children in the United States.
> 
> That is more than the entire population of Canada or Austrailia and about 20% less than the combined total.
> 
> ...



I have to respectfully disagree that we're not safer from terrorist attacks than we were 15 years ago.  It's cost a lot in dollars and freedoms, but it's hard to argue that we're not safer.  

As for school shootings - this menace may feel like "the Bogeyman" when it doesn't affect your school or the school of someone you love, but that's not true for all of us.  Every school shooting rocks me to my very core regardless of where it occurs. These attacks feel very real to me and have changed my life.  Our nation needs to pull together to figure this out.    

Warrigal, you are right on point about the adolescent mind.  

Bob, what neighboring first world countries have the same rate of gun violence (deaths and injuries) as the US?  

Of course a gun doesn't kill by itself.  Nothing inanimate has a will of its own.  Not guns, not furniture, not automobiles, not nuclear weapons, not mustard gas, not alcohol nor cigarettes, etc.  Some are fully legal without legislating, others are considered dangerous in the wrong hands and are therefore licensed or restricted.


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## Camper6 (May 19, 2018)

BobF said:


> I watched long hours of the follow up interviews.   I think I did hear that their were two officers assigned to this high school.   If so, that is not the best way to go as 10 is a rather large number of dead.   What was their activity?   How fast did they get into action?    I think one of the problems is a patrolman was badly injured or killed.
> 
> Yes, it does seem to be mental problems over and over.   That should be a good warning for future events.    Nothing wrong with good follow up for learning more and a chance for alerting the parents of what may be a hidden turn in a child's thinking.



You are hoping for a miracle.  

There's no way even professionals can see a hidden turn in anyone's thinking.


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## Camper6 (May 19, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I want to know how a sawn off shotgun is considered a legal firearm.



How do you know a sawed off shotgun was used?


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## Don M. (May 19, 2018)

While these school shootings are certainly a tragedy, they are just the tip of the iceberg.  In Chicago, for example, there have been 153 homicides so far, this year.  Cities like Baltimore, Detroit, and St. Louis are not far behind.  The difference being that most of these killings occur in the inner cities, among the "minorities", and are so commonplace that they barely register more than a short mention on the local evening news.  

The number of "nutcases" who resort to shooting others over the slightest provocation is continually growing.


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## Shalimar (May 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> You are hoping for a miracle.
> 
> There's no way even professionals can see a hidden turn in anyone's thinking.


Exactly.


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## C'est Moi (May 19, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> How do you know a sawed off shotgun was used?



It was reported on the news that the shooter used a sawed-off shotgun and a pistol.


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## Traveler (May 19, 2018)

We continue to look at the "how" --- the guns themselves.  Do we go into such discussions about the vehicle when a drunk driver kills a mother and 3 children ?  No, of course not.  

If we could wave a magic wand, and all guns disappeared, these disturbed young men would merely switch to killing with a car or truck (exactly like radical Muslims do in Europe).

When someone wants to kill, he can't be stopped. This is doubly true if the killer is willing to die in the process. 

I repeat, we must look at the "why" and then address that.

I suggest that, at an absolute minimum, we make cyber bullying a crime. If, and when, a few hundred cyber bullies (across the nation) are hauled off in handcuffs and had to spend a few days in "Juvie", there would be a dramatic reduction in cyber bullying.

I am NOT suggesting that arresting cyber bullies is the end all, be all, of an answer, but it can't hurt to at least try.


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## Gary O' (May 20, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We continue to look at the "how" --- the guns themselves.  Do we go into such discussions about the vehicle when a drunk driver kills a mother and 3 children ?  No, of course not.
> 
> If we could wave a magic wand, and all guns disappeared, these disturbed young men would merely switch to killing with a car or truck (exactly like radical Muslims do in Europe).
> 
> ...



I totally concur with addressing the whys


The cyber bullies?
Man, I don't know
Are kids alone in handling them?
Can they be educated on how to cope, defuse, ignore?
Seems less spendy than arrests, trials, incarceration...seems


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> It was reported on the news that the shooter used a sawed-off shotgun and a pistol.



You are correct but there are versions of shotguns with shortened barrels that are legal.  I think sawed off shotguns are illegal.

Excerpt:
Pagourtzis  used firearms owned by his father and initially planned to kill himself  in the bloody rampage but ultimately lost his nerve and surrendered,  Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said.
      Sen.  John Cornyn (R-Texas) said the shotgun was of the ultra-deadly  sawed-off variety and that investigators were trying to determine  whether the shortened barrel was legal.


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## Traveler (May 20, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> I totally concur with addressing the whys
> 
> 
> The cyber bullies?
> ...



I'm not sure if actual trials of cyber bullies would ever be needed.  It is quite possible that the humiliation of arrest and the discomfort of spending a few days in Juvenile Hall might be enough. Also,  we would  confiscate their cell phones. Doing the latter, would be easy because the cell is "evidence" of the crime. 

The idea here is to get the cyber bully back in school ASAP where he/she could spread the word of arrest, Juvie, and lost cell phone. 
My reading of the juvenile mind, is that to lose a cell phone would be just horrible.

Moreover, the hassle and embarrassment for the parents might be sufficient to get them seriously involved. 

If none of the above worked we could up the ante, and add community service as punishment, say, for example, working to help the homeless.


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## Butterfly (May 20, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> I totally concur with addressing the whys
> 
> 
> The cyber bullies?
> ...



Maybe required courses in anger and frustration management starting very early, and maybe something like "Reality 101" as well.  We really need to address the "you're always entitled to get your way" and "life should always be fair" thinking, as well as the idea that hate and violence are acceptable if someone hurts your feelings.


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## Sunny (May 20, 2018)

All good ideas, and probably a big improvement over doing what we do now, which is pretty much nothing except a lot of hand-wringing.


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## BobF (May 20, 2018)

Once again I see no response to my comments about the Swiss and how guns are a big thing in their society but none of the nasty notoriety of the US ways in their way of living.   Our problems seem to be in how we allow folks to live and how they think about killing friends or neighbors.   The US does have a problem and guns is not the reason at all.

Is anyone in the US looking at the Swiss ways and trying to understand where they are different from the US.   Maybe some small way of teaching about guns and hatred.   They sure do not go together.

Maybe for the Swiss other folks are not subject to being killed until that person has been described as 'bad' by their leaders.    I don't know but am sure it is not the guns alone that is the problem.   Until we get our minds off the guns we will never find the difference that makes guns OK in Switzerland.

So far, both sides of our government agree that it is not the guns.   Our Constitution and laws all support that to be true.


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## Traveler (May 20, 2018)

I have been giving this subject a great deal of thought. It seems to me that children can be such cruel little savages. 
For whatever reason, some kids take a delight in cruelty. Not just boys, but girls also. They pick on each other. Boys will punch and call each other "queers". Girls on the other hand, are less likely to punch (though some do), but they make fun of the fat girl, or because the other girl does not dress according to the latest fashion or for some reason known only to females.

We all are aware that the rate of suicide amongst teens is sky-rocketing.   I think that the primary reason is because the kid who commits suicide simply can't take it any more. Some of us were unmercifully bullied in school. I sure as hell know I was. One big kid put me in the hospital twice. 

I believe that the kid who snaps and kills his class-mates is doing so because he is seeking vengeance on his tormentors. 

I therefore, suggest that schools adopt a zero tolerance policy on bullying *AND *that the school hold classes to teach civilized behavior. 

Again, this is not the end-all, be-all, of the slaughter but it would be a good start.


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## fmdog44 (May 20, 2018)

We cannot stop this anymore than we can stop traffic deaths. More high school kids have been shot to death this years than all of our military all over the world. I want to hear from parents of young teens about their anxieties now watching their kids go to school. It has to wear on them.


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## C'est Moi (May 20, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> You are correct but there are versions of shotguns with shortened barrels that are legal.  I think sawed off shotguns are illegal.
> 
> Excerpt:
> Pagourtzis  used firearms owned by his father and initially planned to kill himself  in the bloody rampage but ultimately lost his nerve and surrendered,  Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said.
> Sen.  John Cornyn (R-Texas) said the shotgun was of the ultra-deadly  sawed-off variety and that investigators were trying to determine  whether the shortened barrel was legal.




I know all about the different barrel lengths and the legality; I live in Texas not 40 miles from where the shooting occurred.   However, your question was "How do we KNOW A SAWED-OFF WAS USED?", and I answered.   

The End.


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## Aunt Bea (May 20, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I have been giving this subject a great deal of thought. It seems to me that children can be such cruel little savages.
> For whatever reason, some kids take a delight in cruelty. Not just boys, but girls also. They pick on each other. Boys will punch and call each other "queers". Girls on the other hand, are less likely to punch (though some do), but they make fun of the fat girl, or because the other girl does not dress according to the latest fashion or for some reason known only to females.
> 
> We all are aware that the rate of suicide amongst teens is sky-rocketing. I think that the primary reason is because the kid who commits suicide simply can't take it any more. Some of us were unmercifully bullied in school. I sure as hell know I was. One big kid put me in the hospital twice.
> ...



I agree that it would be a good start.

I also think that the adults need to be part of this and set a better example for kids to follow.  

We have similar behaviors on SF, in some threads, and we are definitely old enough to know better.


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## BobF (May 20, 2018)

A question.   Have any of the US school tragedies happened in private schools?   Have any of the shooters come from private schools?

If *NO* to both those questions it brings up a concern about our education system as being part of the problem.

Yes, I do agree with many of Travelers comments.   More folks should be asking questions about our life styles and ways of teaching moderation and concern about their and others safety and well being.


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> I know all about the different barrel lengths and the legality; I live in Texas not 40 miles from where the shooting occurred.   However, your question was "How do we KNOW A SAWED-OFF WAS USED?", and I answered.
> 
> The End.



Next question. So What? What difference does it make.?


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## C'est Moi (May 20, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Next question. So What? What difference does it make.?



Why am I bothering to respond to you is the better question.   For heaven's sake, you ASKED how we knew he used a shotgun and I answered.   Lesson learned; I won't bother with you again.


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2018)

Bob. It's the gun culture.

East access to guns.

Other countries don't have that easy access.  

You our always want to leave the gun out of the equation and blame everything but.


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Why am I bothering to respond to you is the better question.   For heaven's sake, you ASKED how we knew he used a shotgun and I answered.   Lesson learned; I won't bother with you again.



That would be nice. Someone else or you asked if it was legal. You didn't answer. What difference does it make you don't answer either. You just go on a rant.


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## fmdog44 (May 20, 2018)

Answer this - How does one walk to the building dressed in a trench coat in 90+ degree heat and go unnoticed?


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## BobF (May 20, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob. It's the gun culture.
> 
> East access to guns.
> 
> ...



It is not the guns, as some keep insisting.   We will never find any realistic solution till folks are willing to open their minds to reality.   The US is not the only country to have weapons at hand.   And the Swiss are much more with open and available weapons than any other place.

Here is a link to a web site about the Swiss modern ways of being prepared.

http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/hidden-swiss-air-force.html

Enjoy and hopefully learn a few things.   I do believe the US has a lot to learn from the Swiss.   But first we have to park our high and might US attitudes and take a look at other nations and see what they might be doing differently.


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## fmdog44 (May 20, 2018)

Gunless Russia has more annual murders then we do.


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## Traveler (May 20, 2018)

Also let's not forget Israel. It is difficult to imagine a  nation with more guns/capita than Israel. Yet we do not see Jewish teens killing other Jewish teens.

I've said this before and perhaps I need to say it again. To use the analogy of gun powder: charcoal +sulfur + potassium + a spark = an explosion. Many ingredients necessary. The same applies to teens who go postal. *Many factors. Not just one.

*Men have been killing each other ever since the 1st ape-man grabbed rock and bashed his neighbors head in. Rocks, clubs, spears, swords, if a man wants to kill he is going to kill. Guns are not necessary.

It is only a matter of time before a teen discovers that he can kill many, many more fellow students with a car. All he has to do is wait until school is let out and he can kill dozens more than with a gun.  I don't know why that is so hard for some people to understand.


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## Traveler (May 20, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Answer this - How does one walk to the building dressed in a trench coat in 90+ degree heat and go unnoticed?



Did the killer always wear a trench coat ? I don't have the answer BUT if he did, then no-one would have paid any attention to him. Maybe ?


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## Gary O' (May 20, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I'm not sure if actual trials of cyber bullies would ever be needed.  It is quite possible that the humiliation of arrest and the discomfort of spending a few days in Juvenile Hall might be enough. Also,  we would  confiscate their cell phones. Doing the latter, would be easy because the cell is "evidence" of the crime.
> 
> The idea here is to get the cyber bully back in school ASAP where he/she could spread the word of arrest, Juvie, and lost cell phone.
> My reading of the juvenile mind, is that to lose a cell phone would be just horrible.
> ...



Y'know, I can't argue with this line of thinking...sort of a two prong attack (not forgetting who along with why)


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## Seeker (May 20, 2018)

It just makes my heart ache to hear this so much anymore. Someone has got to come up with an answer.

 I don't know..even metal detectors at the doors.

Why don't we take some of the money spent on other countries and spend it here. Protect our own.


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## TonyK (May 21, 2018)

This is the 229th school shooting since the Columbine Massacre. A reminder of how little our leaders have done to solve the problem.


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## StarSong (May 21, 2018)

TonyK said:


> This is the 229th school shooting since the Columbine Massacre. A reminder of how little our leaders have done to solve the problem.



Amen.


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## Jackie22 (May 21, 2018)

TonyK said:


> This is the 229th school shooting since the Columbine Massacre. A reminder of how little our leaders have done to solve the problem.



....another Amen!


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## WhatInThe (May 21, 2018)

TonyK said:


> This is the 229th school shooting since the Columbine Massacre. A reminder of how little our leaders have done to solve the problem.



I hope 'leaders' includes parents who fail to teach committing criminal act is not the answer or end to the their child's problems. Or "the system" that lets a student wear a fashion statement completely opposite the weather and quite easy of concealing anything from weapons, bombs and/or drugs. All they had to do was make the kid open his coat. I remember during the crack dealer wars of the 1980s winter attire in warm climates was not uncommon mostly to hide an uzi style weapon.

Or even better the leader called an individual's brain tells them that are not to commit murderous criminal acts. If people keep on looking for "the" answer on a whole host of issues not much will get done because while those still waiting or relying on a third party to fix their problems stuff will still happen.


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## Traveler (May 21, 2018)

*Amen to "what-in-the" for his rational thinking.*

We must be cautious when looking at the numbers of school shootings.  For in that long list, much is included that should not be on that list. When a man walks into a school, and shoots his ex-lover (adult vs. adult) and then walks away, that is included on the list. When a gang member shoots a rival gang member that is on the list. And, when a firearm is accidentally discharged, by a guard, that, also is on the list.

Columbine happened 20 years ago, If we multiply 20 times 52 weeks we have a total of 1040 weeks. When we divide that number by 229 schools shootings. we end up with an average of 4.541 shootings /week.  All of us know full well, or we should be aware, that is a grossly inflated number. 

I, in no way, suggest that school massacres are not a very serious matter. Nor do I suggest that our leaders should not be more active in stopping them, but the responsibility falls mainly upon the rank and file of citizenry. Above all, the responsibility falls upon the parents, who, too often, turn a blind eye to the activities of their own children.

It is oft said, among a certain faction of our society, that "You can have it all". Wrong ! No one can have "it all". Not man, not woman.
The best the we can hope for is a small piece of many things.  In days of old , the man went to work, and left the raising of the family to the woman. That seemed to work fine. *BUT*, the working man missed out on the day-to-day lives of his children. He did not "have it all".

One definition of "multi-tasking" is to foul up many things at the same time. Raising a family is a full-time job. Our mothers, with rare exception, devoted their lives to her family. When that changed, society changed, and school shootings are part of the consequences.


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## StarSong (May 21, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> I hope 'leaders' includes parents who fail to teach committing criminal act is not the answer or end to the their child's problems. Or "the system" that lets a student wear a fashion statement completely opposite the weather and quite easy of concealing anything from weapons, bombs and/or drugs. All they had to do was make the kid open his coat. I remember during the crack dealer wars of the 1980s winter attire in warm climates was not uncommon mostly to hide an uzi style weapon.
> 
> Or even better the leader called an individual's brain tells them that are not to commit murderous criminal acts. If people keep on looking for "the" answer on a whole host of issues not much will get done because while those still waiting or relying on a third party to fix their problems stuff will still happen.



Turning school authorities into the Fashion Police is both highly impractical and legally a non-starter.  Parents would be up in arms (as well they should be) if teachers started asking various students to open their coats, remove their sweatshirts, etc., under the guise of a weapons inspection.  Can you even picture the uproar and potential lawsuits?    

Public schools in most states have extreme legal difficulty enforcing nominal modesty guidelines, never mind "I think this is inappropriate for today's weather" dress codes.  I know whereof I speak on this matter.  

This kid happened to choose a warm day to start shooting - but it could just as easily have been the last day before winter break when a long coat wouldn't have aroused suspicion.  Or he could have started shooting while still in the parking lot.    

Until we figure out how to turn around kids whose brains are not telling them how to behave, many of us believe it is a good idea to stop arming them to the teeth.


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## StarSong (May 21, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Also let's not forget Israel. It is difficult to imagine a  nation with more guns/capita than Israel. Yet we do not see Jewish teens killing other Jewish teens.



Sorry, Traveler, but Israelis have very few guns per capita.  The US has between 79 -101 guns per 100 private parties.  Israel has 3.5- 7.3, depending on what statistics you believe. Either using the most conservative US and most liberal Israeli stats, the US has more than 10X the number of guns in private hands than does Israel. 

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[FONT=&quot]Israeli security experts also say that gun violence is rare in Israel because privately held guns are so rare. According to data from Israel’s Ministry of Internal Security, which registers all gun owners, about 260,000 Israelis, or about 3.5 percent of the population, have permits to carry firearms. Half of the permit holders are private citizens, and the others work for security firms.
[/FONT]https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/22/why-school-shootings-are-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-common/


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## C'est Moi (May 21, 2018)

No one will ever convince me that guns are the problem.   Most of us were raised in homes where guns were commonplace and yet managed to not massacre anyone.   The core of the problem is societal and the disintegration of family.   People are so angry... just look at all the road rage now.   It's terrifying to drive anywhere.   

I don't know how we will fix this mess.


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## TonyK (May 21, 2018)

"Columbine happened 20 years ago, If we multiply 20 times 52 weeks we have a total of 1040 weeks. When we divide that number by 229 schools shootings. we end up with an average of 4.541 shootings /week. All of us know full well, or we should be aware, that is a grossly inflated number. I, in no way, suggest that school massacres are not a very serious matter."

The Columbine Massacre happened 19 years ago. With 40 weeks in a school year times 19 years, the total is 760 weeks. 229 school shootings divided by 760 weeks is not 4.541 shootings/per week. Can you see the error? 

There were some school shootings that didn't have any victims. Just as there were other potential school shootings that law enforcement, parents, and others thwarted. The problem has been going on for too long. There will be another 229 school shootings during some of our lifetimes unless some people act. 

I sub in three schools. I read about one killer who went into their high school to kill a teacher. When he found out that his teacher wasn't in school, he murdered the sub! Another sub was killed in Texas just last week. Every one of you live in a state that has had a recent school shooting. Today's kids, if they are not looking down at their cellphones, are looking over their shoulders to see who is behind them. As one teenager from Santa Fe, TX put it:

 "I always felt that eventually it was going to happen here too."


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## Traveler (May 21, 2018)

TonyK said:


> "Columbine happened 20 years ago, If we multiply 20 times 52 weeks we have a total of 1040 weeks. When we divide that number by 229 schools shootings. we end up with an average of 4.541 shootings /week. All of us know full well, or we should be aware, that is a grossly inflated number. I, in no way, suggest that school massacres are not a very serious matter."
> 
> The Columbine Massacre happened 19 years ago. With 40 weeks in a school year times 19 years, the total is 760 weeks. 229 school shootings divided by 760 weeks is not 4.541 shootings/per week. Can you see the error?




I see your point, but the list, on the www, includes colleges, which are naturally open year round. So, I also included colleges (52 weeks).

However, I should have been more specific.


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## Traveler (May 21, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Sorry, Traveler, but Israelis have very few guns per capita.  The US has between 79 -101 guns per 100 private parties.  Israel has 3.5- 7.3, depending on what statistics you believe. Either using the most conservative US and most liberal Israeli stats, the US has more than 10X the number of guns in private hands than does Israel.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
> ...



Of course the Israeli's have quite a few guns /capita. THAT WAS MY POINT. !  Also, you did not include all of the guns in the hands of the military personnel, who take their guns home with them, where kids could steal them and kill. If that was in their minds. Which it is not. 



C'est Moi said:


> No one will ever convince me that guns are the problem.   Most of us were raised in homes where guns were commonplace and yet managed to not massacre anyone.   The core of the problem is societal and the disintegration of family.   People are so angry... just look at all the road rage now.   It's terrifying to drive anywhere.
> 
> I don't know how we will fix this mess.



*I totally agree*. The problem is our society is sliding down the slippery slope.  Expect it to continue. 

"No great civilization is ever destroyed from without, until it has destroyed its self from within"  
Will Durant, the 20th century's pre-eminent historian


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## TonyK (May 21, 2018)

229 shootings divided by 760 weeks equals .301 shootings per week. Or about one every three weeks, and not four or five per week. That was what I was getting at.


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## Traveler (May 21, 2018)

TonyK said:


> 229 shootings divided by 760 weeks equals .301 shootings per week. Or about one every three weeks, and not four or five per week. That was what I was getting at.




Tony, you're correct. I must be getting senile. I can't even do basic math anymore. hahaha


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## TonyK (May 21, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Tony, you're correct. I must be getting senile. I can't even do basic math anymore. hahaha



I'd say you need to take a refresher course but you know how dangerous our schools are.


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## BobF (May 22, 2018)

There have been some interesting inputs on this thread.    Real happy to see that there are some not willing to lay all the blame on guns.   

Did any of you folks take a look and the Swiss culture where guns are pretty much for all to see and have with them in their lives with little or no tragic events due to the guns?

Did any of you folks read the link I put up that tells of the Swiss ways of building bomb shelters and airports.

I was very impressed by their determination for self defense.   The Swiss have had this selfdefense idea since way back in horses and bows and arrows.   They have done well with their ideas.

Hopefully the US will one day get our own ideas of right and wrong straightened out again.    It is not the guns at all, it is our own mind sets that need adjusted.


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## StarSong (May 22, 2018)

Most of us don't think the blame can be laid entirely on the doorstep of the types and numbers of guns that Americans own, but they sure don't help the situation.  This is a multi-layered problem that will take a multi-layered solution.


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## Traveler (May 22, 2018)

This problem of why school shootings happen so often in America is a Gordian Knot of problems. It can be solved, but it is going to take a national effort. 

Think about this. No normal kid, (whatever that means) suddenly wakes up one day and decides to kill. It is a long process of building anger. 
For the life of me, I can't imagine how some parents don't see, or refuse to see, serious trouble brewing.


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## RadishRose (May 22, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Most of us don't think the blame can be laid entirely on the doorstep of the types and numbers of guns that Americans own, but they sure don't help the situation.  This is a multi-layered problem that will take a multi-layered solution.



Agree.


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## BobF (May 22, 2018)

You are right and that is why I keep pushing for something more than these anti gun activities.   The Swiss are good examples of how to live with guns and not have problems.   That is why I suggest we spend some time looking at the Swiss ways and lifting some ideas from them.

One idea, that I know some will object to, is cleaning up our education system.   There is no need to be teaching our kids to paint 'hate slogans' and have them walk out of class and march.   Anti anything is trampling on others ideas and all ideas are considered to be open for debate.   In the US there is no government agency that can just do as they wish.   All changes to our ways of life must go through proper channels and be approved first.

Teaching hate is in itself a bad idea.   Tolerance is a much better way to go.


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## Keesha (May 22, 2018)

BobF said:


> Teaching hate is in itself a bad idea.   Tolerance is a much better way to go.



Agree!


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## Camper6 (May 24, 2018)

BobF said:


> There have been some interesting inputs on this thread.    Real happy to see that there are some not willing to lay all the blame on guns.
> 
> Did any of you folks take a look and the Swiss culture where guns are pretty much for all to see and have with them in their lives with little or no tragic events due to the guns?
> 
> ...



My niece lives in Switzerland.  Bob. You don't have a clue.  It's military that get to keep guns in Switzerland otherwise it's very difficult to get a firearm like a handgun.

Canada has a similar culture to the United States.  Why doesn't the same problem show up in Canada.

And in Japan?  Gun crime is rare.  

Bob you cannot leave the guns out of the picture and expect different results.

The easy access to guns in the United States is a problem.


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

It will do no good to try to abolish the 2nd Amendment to the Bill of rights.  

It says, in plain English, "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

The anti gun people refuse to look at what is causing the boys to become so angry in the first place. Why ? Does an examination of the uninvolved parent (s) threaten some sacred belief ?


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## Sunny (May 24, 2018)

> The easy access to guns in the United States is a problem.



Exactly, Camper. There are angry people, seriously disturbed people, uninvolved parents, idiot-level parents who don't know how to keep their own kids out of danger, macho showoffs, hotheads without a single brain in their heads, etc. all over the world. This country does not have a monopoly on any of those things.  But after you factor out all those other things, what's the one thing that is different here?  Right, the easy access to guns!

And for those who use "hunting" as their excuse for keeping all those guns lying around, I'd like to know where their sacred second amendment fits in.  Do they "bear arms" against the local deer population?

Amendments can and should be abolished when they are clearly causing more harm than good. Times change, and everything that was mandated in the old days is not always still a good idea. What does any of this have to do with the well-regulated militia of Colonial times?


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## C'est Moi (May 24, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Exactly, Camper. There are angry people, seriously disturbed people, uninvolved parents, idiot-level parents who don't know how to keep their own kids out of danger, macho showoffs, hotheads without a single brain in their heads, etc. all over the world. This country does not have a monopoly on any of those things.  But after you factor out all those other things, what's the one thing that is different here?  Right, the easy access to guns!
> 
> And for those who use "hunting" as their excuse for keeping all those guns lying around, I'd like to know where their sacred second amendment fits in.  Do they "bear arms" against the local deer population?
> 
> Amendments can and should be abolished when they are clearly causing more harm than good. Times change, and everything that was mandated in the old days is not always still a good idea. What does any of this have to do with the well-regulated militia of Colonial times?



Letting go of ANY of your rights is a very slippery slope.


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## BobF (May 24, 2018)

One reason that no amendments have been written and processed is because not enough of our government, no matter what party's involved, has been convinced that guns are the problem.

Again, the Swiss have no crazies running around and shooting others.   They have gun clubs and national shootouts during the year.   The Swiss do not have the nutty self important nonsense we have taught in our schools and colleges.   They should be teaching how to get along with each other and not how to stop others from doing what they are doing.   Street mobs and hatred are not good things to push by ourn education systems.


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Exactly, Camper. There are angry people, seriously disturbed people, uninvolved parents, idiot-level parents who don't know how to keep their own kids out of danger, macho showoffs, hotheads without a single brain in their heads, etc. all over the world. This country does not have a monopoly on any of those things.  But after you factor out all those other things, what's the one thing that is different here?  Right, the easy access to guns!
> 
> And for those who use "hunting" as their excuse for keeping all those guns lying around, I'd like to know where their sacred second amendment fits in.  Do they "bear arms" against the local deer population?
> 
> Amendments can and should be abolished when they are clearly causing more harm than good. Times change, and everything that was mandated in the old days is not always still a good idea. What does any of this have to do with the well-regulated militia of Colonial times?




We bear arms against criminals who are always going to have guns, no matter what the law says. Without guns we are easy prey. Any discussion of banning guns is a waste of time because it is never, ever going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 100 years. Never !

In most of Africa, the AK-47 is easier and cheaper to get than a used car. Yet we do not see teens in those countries killing their fellow students. The problem of killing in our schools is parents that are totally uninvolved, coupled with a host of other causes.


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## ray188 (May 24, 2018)

Well phrased Traveler. There was one "kid killer" who felt bullied. As kids we all felt bullied but we were taught to deal with it. But now bullying has become a large political issue to the point were kids feel they do not have to deal with it - someone else is responsible to protect them. It is the "snowflake" syndrome where kids have been raised to never have to deal with any disappointment so when one comes along, their reaction may be violent.


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## JaniceM (May 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We bear arms against criminals who are always going to have guns, no matter what the law says. Without guns we are easy prey. Any discussion of banning guns is a waste of time because it is never, ever going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 100 years. Never !
> 
> In most of Africa, the AK-47 is easier and cheaper to get than a used car. Yet we do not see teens in those countries killing their fellow students. The problem of killing in our schools is parents that are totally uninvolved, coupled with a host of other causes.



I was going to reply to this post earlier, but didn't have time;  in the meantime, someone did reply, but while I don't know the person he and I have entirely different ways of looking at what you said.  My POV on it:

'parents that are totally uninvolved'-  you're certainly right about that.  And from what I've seen in recent years, it has nothing to do with the so-called snowflake syndrome, but parents who either 'aren't there, or don't care.'  
I'm sure plenty of individuals will hiss&spit at me for this, but I don't understand why anyone has kids in the first place if they fully intend to hand all of the responsibilities of child-raising to others.  
Kids of all ages have everyday lives, interests, questions, problems, etc.-  who do they take these things to:  teachers, coaches, counselors, virtually anyone and everyone except their own parents/families.  or else they try to cope with everything on their own.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> No one will ever convince me that guns are the problem.   Most of us were raised in homes where guns were commonplace and yet managed to not massacre anyone.   The core of the problem is societal and the disintegration of family.   People are so angry... just look at all the road rage now.   It's terrifying to drive anywhere.
> 
> I don't know how we will fix this mess.



I agree.  It seems many people fly into a rage at the drop of a hat and are just looking for a reason to be offended.  I also grew up with guns in the house, guns at relatives' houses, guns in the homes of friends' parents.  I never felt the need to massacre anybody, either, nor did any of my friends, relatives or acquaintances, even though guns were in easy reach. 

The problem goes way beyond just the fact that guns are there.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Letting go of ANY of your rights is a very slippery slope.



Strongly agree.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2018)

ray188 said:


> Well phrased Traveler. There was one "kid killer" who felt bullied. As kids we all felt bullied but we were taught to deal with it. But now bullying has become a large political issue to the point were kids feel they do not have to deal with it - someone else is responsible to protect them. It is the "snowflake" syndrome where kids have been raised to never have to deal with any disappointment so when one comes along, their reaction may be violent.



Strongly agree.  They are not being taught how to deal with anger, disappointment or frustration in a non-violent way.


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## Camper6 (May 24, 2018)

The Second Amendment has already been infringed.A background check is an infringement.So is a ban on automatic rifles
 Fortunately clearer heads prevail sometimes much to the chagrin of the gun lobby.


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## Camper6 (May 24, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Strongly agree.



You cannot teach anger management. Well you can but it won't stick.


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## Camper6 (May 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We bear arms against criminals who are always going to have guns, no matter what the law says. Without guns we are easy prey. Any discussion of banning guns is a waste of time because it is never, ever going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, not in 100 years. Never !
> 
> In most of Africa, the AK-47 is easier and cheaper to get than a used car. Yet we do not see teens in those countries killing their fellow students. The problem of killing in our schools is parents that are totally uninvolved, coupled with a host of other causes.




Any excuse but the guns in the U.S. huh? How you can leave that out of the equation is simply beyond me.

The U.S. should be the leader in the field instead of the follower.

Yes you are entitled to having a weapon for protection but do you need an AK-47 or an AR-15?  These weapons were designed for the battlefield not for civilians to protect themselves against what? A herd of Bison?


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## Camper6 (May 24, 2018)

BobF said:


> One reason that no amendments have been written and processed is because non enough of our government, no matter what party 8s involved, has been convinced that guns are the problem.
> 
> Perhaps because the gun lobby has them in their pocket?
> 
> Again, the Swiss have no crazies running around and shooting others.   They have gun clubs and national shootouts during the year.   The Swiss do not have the nutty self important nonsense we have taught in our schools and colleges.   They should be teaching how to get along with each other and not how to stop others from doing what they are doing.   Street mobs and hatred are not good things to push by ourn education systems.



Gun clubs are regulated in Switzerland and in Canada as well. Very strict gun laws.

Americans could not stand to have their guns regulated.


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## Shalimar (May 24, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> You cannot teach anger management. Well you can but it won't stick.


I strongly disagree. If you address these  issues as soon as they manifest themselves, the recidivism rate is low. I have had nine year olds in my office learning skill sets on how to deal with negative emotions including anger. They progressed very well.


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Any excuse but the guns in the U.S. huh? How you can leave that out of the equation is simply beyond me.
> 
> The U.S. should be the leader in the field instead of the follower.
> 
> Yes you are entitled to having a weapon for protection but do you need an AK-47 or an AR-15?  These weapons were designed for the battlefield not for civilians to protect themselves against what? A herd of Bison?




How about the leftist lunatic fringe ? Quite frankly they scare to hell out of me. The very first thing any dictatorship does is take guns away from the people. Once that is done, there is nothing left to stop then from doing whatever they will. Does Ruby Ridge or Waco ring any bells ?


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## Shalimar (May 24, 2018)

From what I understand, at least two school shootings were perpetrated by young males identifying with the Incel Movement whose members include those who glorify rape, forcible confinement, and even fantasies of murdering women. Scary stuff, and 

certainly far from left wing. Banned from Reddit, this group primarily consists of teens and twenties males with severe social maladjustment issues who, like Elliot Rodger, expect women to fall into their laps without any effort on their part. Here in Canada, the man who drove his van into Toronto pedestrians idolized Elliot Rodger.


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Strongly agree.  They are not being taught how to deal with anger, disappointment or frustration in a non-violent way.



I agree with Butterfly.  We used to have  something that taught how to deal with disappointment, anger and frustration. It was called Little League Baseball. But some nut case came up with the idea of not keeping score so nobody ever felt hurt. (some parts of the country may still have old-style tiny tot baseball were kids learn that everything does not always go "your way".


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

Just coming in on the news.  In a restaurant at Oklahoma City, a nut case came in and started shooting a woman and teenage boy. An armed private citizen pulled his weapon and shot the nut case. The mans swift action saved both victims lives. Nothing else yet available.


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## Shalimar (May 24, 2018)

ray188 said:


> Well phrased Traveler. There was one "kid killer" who felt bullied. As kids we all felt bullied but we were taught to deal with it. But now bullying has become a large political issue to the point were kids feel they do not have to deal with it - someone else is responsible to protect them. It is the "snowflake" syndrome where kids have been raised to never have to deal with any disappointment so when one comes along, their reaction may be violent.



Hmm, in my experience, most, not all, violent teens come from homes where they have been exposed to abuse. Few kids who have never been exposed to such react violently, most who  do seem to either be mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs/alcohol. Bullying is more often liable to drive teens to suicide. As for peeps of our generation being bullied, it was less 

intense due to the lack of social media. As for protection, when children are deliberately  pushed to suicide by other children, damn rights they should be protected. I grew up in an environment where only the strong survived. Would I  have handled the bullytrolls terrorizing today’s kids? I doubt it. They saturate the social media stuff which kids use. It is relentless. Pack warfare against the vulnerable.


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## Traveler (May 24, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> From what I understand, at least two school shootings were perpetrated by young males identifying with the Incel Movement whose members include those who glorify rape, forcible confinement, and even fantasies of murdering women. Scary stuff, and
> 
> certainly far from left wing. Banned from Reddit, this group primarily consists of teens and twenties males with severe social maladjustment issues who, like Elliot Rodger, expect women to fall into their laps without any effort on their part. Here in Canada, the man who drove his van into Toronto pedestrians idolized Elliot Rodger.



I have never heard of Incel Movement or Elliot Rodger, but it sounds like they are nut cases and it is precisely what I mean when I say children's activities need to be very closely monitored.


----------



## StarSong (May 25, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Any excuse but the guns in the U.S. huh? How you can leave that out of the equation is simply beyond me.
> 
> The U.S. should be the leader in the field instead of the follower.
> 
> Yes you are entitled to having a weapon for protection but do you need an AK-47 or an AR-15?  These weapons were designed for the battlefield not for civilians to protect themselves against what? A herd of Bison?



Well stated.


----------



## BobF (May 25, 2018)

The terms AK-47 AR-15 do not mean full automatic military style guns.   These same rifles can be sold in either form of full automatic, fire and repeat fire as long as the trigger is held, or standard, fire once for each pull of the trigger.   More shots would require more pulls of the trigger.

I don't know why so many folks get confused by the names.   That describes their appearance only.  The full automatic is illegal for the private market so only semi automatic would be the public market item.


----------



## Don M. (May 25, 2018)

It seems to me that "Bullying" has Always been part of the school/growing up experience.  How it was handled decades ago, vs. today's experiences, seems to be quite different.  Back when I was a kid, I remember a handful of "confrontations", where I got, and gave, my fair share of black eyes and bloody noses.  Strangely enough, when one of my classmates and I laid into each other, we usually became fairly good friends afterwards.  Today, it seems that a lot of these kids are afraid to "stand up" for themselves, and as a result, their tormentors are emboldened...and those who allow themselves to be continuously picked on often Snap.


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## Traveler (May 25, 2018)

I have very little patience with one-dimensional thinking. Any topic of discussion has more than one single dimension.  Few topics are more complicated than the human mind and the behaviors that follow from the thinking of that mind. 

When a person talks about school shootings, and he/she sees only one aspect of the shootings ie guns, guns, guns, they are seeing but one single factor and not even the most important factor. That is thinking in one dimension. That is the narrowest of views. 

Take any photograph you happen to have handy. Now turn the photo "on edge" so that you can't see anything except the very edge. You now see only height. If you turn the photo, so that you can see height and width. You are now seeing in *two *dimensions.

There are however two additional dimensions. _Depth and time._  To even begin to understand any human behavior, we absolutely *must *look at all dimensions. 

Case in point. When we ask ourselves why a school shooting happened, it does no good to zero in on the weapon to the exclusion of all other factors. If we wish  to truly understand, we must, at least, look at every possible aspect of that most extreme of anti-social behaviors. 

We must look at: what is happening to the teenager in school, his friendships,  if any, his grades in school, how he is spending his time away from school, what specific activities he engages in, what "electronic media" he is absorbed in, does he get proper exercise, his relationship with his parent(s), is he being abused/bullied, how he treats others around him, does he torture animals, is he depressed, angry, non-communicative, does he self-isolate and become with-drawn, is he inflicting physical self harm, is he doing drugs, is he "accepted" by his peers, does he have chores/a job, his diet, is he having any fun, and does he have a girlfriend. In short, we *absolutely must, examine his emotional health.*

Last, but by no means least, we must examine time. How long has any of the above been happening. Teenage years are often extremely difficult years. It is normal for a teenager to be occasionally confused, even depressed, but when he gives an outward appearance of depression/anger for months, even years, then those responsible for him must take action before he commits extremely anti-social behavior.

When there is a school shooting, all aspects of his society has failed in it's obligations. Most especially, his parents have failed.


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## Shalimar (May 25, 2018)

Even re something as catastrophic as school shootings perpetrated by a teen with only a partially developed mind, I am hesitant to assume it is automatically the parent’s fault, although at this point I am certain they blame themselves. Children are often gifted in presenting a front at home which appears shiny and positive when the reality is much darker.


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## BobF (May 25, 2018)

Once again I will interrupt with my plea for all to look at the Swiss for guidance.   They do have guns.   Guns is part of their life.   Their society manages well and are something that we all should look at for  inspiration and guidance to how the US might change their way of living.   Please read this article about the Swiss.   I have posted others but it seems that no one wishes to learn from those that are doing better than we are.  I just keep on trying.

My son lived in Switzerland for a while and said they were doing quite well.   Now It is in print so I will publish it for all to see.   I will only publish the text.   Any other links and pictures will be on the original if you take time and interest.

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

 	 	 		 	 	 	 			 		[h=3]switzerland[/h] 		 	
  	[h=1]The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works[/h]  	The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a  resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up  the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?
	 	 		By Helena Bachmann / Geneva Dec. 20, 2012

Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn.,  the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are  ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun  and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

Even though Switzerland has not been involved in an armed conflict since  a standoff between Catholics and Protestants in 1847, the Swiss are  very serious not only about their right to own weapons but also to carry  them around in public. Because of this general acceptance and even  pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian  riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle  slung across the shoulder.

“We will never change our attitude about the responsible use of  weapons by law-abiding citizens,” says Hermann Suter, vice president of  Pro-Tell, the country’s gun lobby, named after legendary apple shooter  William Tell, who used a crossbow to target enemies long before firearms  were invented.


 Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the  number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military  and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of  only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the  violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun  homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate  in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people,  according to a 2011 U.N. report.


 Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland’s gun ownership  is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity.  Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies  could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able  to fight his way to his regiment’s assembly point. (Switzerland was at  risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)


 
But the “gun in every closet” tradition was challenged in 2001, after  a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional  parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others — the only mass shooting  in Switzerland’s recent history. The subsequent opposition to widespread  gun ownership spearheaded a push for stricter arms legislation. The  government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s  existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private  guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent  enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18,  who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal  record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an  authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and  selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have  caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.


 The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military  — but not private — ammunition must be stored in central arsenals  rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide  referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated  by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.
 Although guns are responsible for between 200 and 300 suicides each  year in Switzerland, Pro-Tell’s Suter says these statistics have to be  put in a wider perspective. He points out that the bullets used in  suicides are only a tiny fraction of the 75 million rounds of ammunition  that are fired each year in Switzerland during military and civilian  target practice.


One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the  prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be  transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of  responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from  generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in  their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss  Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000  members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and  ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And  yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have  ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the  association’s spokesperson.


 “Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter  Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of  Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different  countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on  individualism, can deter mass killings.


 “If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction  into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun  violence,” he tells TIME.


 That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.


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## StarSong (May 25, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I have very little patience with one-dimensional thinking. Any topic of discussion has more than one single dimension.  Few topics are more complicated than the human mind and the behaviors that follow from the thinking of that mind.
> 
> When a person talks about school shootings, and he/she sees only one aspect of the shootings ie guns, guns, guns, they are seeing but one single factor and not even the most important factor. That is thinking in one dimension. That is the narrowest of views.
> 
> ...



Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem?  Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?


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## Traveler (May 25, 2018)

Shalimar. may have a point here. I not sure.  Of one thing I am sure of though, I never, ever fooled my mother about anything.


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## Traveler (May 25, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem?  Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?




No ! It is not. I am looking at everything. Not just guns. The anti-gun fanatics look only at guns.


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## C'est Moi (May 25, 2018)

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/active-sh...ol-police-140103553--abc-news-topstories.html


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## DaveA (May 25, 2018)

It's disappointing to realize that among most of the world's developed nations, other countries, very similar to the U.S, have very little mental illness or almost a total absence of bullying amongst their young??  

Based on some of the arguments that are presented, I would have to assume that there's no other reason worth even considering.


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## Sunny (May 25, 2018)

> The anti-gun fanatics look only at guns.



Being an anti-gun fanatic is similar to being an anti-disease fanatic. Hmm, maybe I'll have a t-shirt made up.  "Proud to be an anti-gun fanatic!"


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## KingsX (May 25, 2018)

.

Schools are a specific target because  they are open and defenseless.

In the latest school shooting,  a heroic science teacher/football coach tackled the shooter and was himself injured in the process.
That teacher needed the authorization and training to carry a gun for protection of students and teachers.

http://fox59.com/2018/05/25/science...ville-west-middle-school-witness-tells-fox59/


In a recent shooting at an Oklahoma restaurant,  the shooter was killed by an armed citizen.
When the citizenry is armed,  such criminal behavior will decrease because the criminals will die.
In our current government "justice" system, criminals are coddled which is why crime is running amok.

*Armed civilian praised for stopping gunman after girl, mom shot at Oklahoma City restaurant*

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-city-shooting-louies-grill-bar-armed-citizen-stops-gunman/

http://kfor.com/2018/05/24/police-investigating-reported-shooting-at-lake-hefner/


The irony is... for the past several decades schools have been teaching their students the same destructive
cultural marxism that has allowed criminals to run amok while disarming lawful citizenry.

.


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## Aunt Bea (May 25, 2018)

IMO it is a mistake to focus on guns or schools.

We need to examine every area or our day to day life and slightly harden the so-called soft targets that we frequent on a regular basis in a way that will provide maximum protection with minimum disruption to our way of life.

IMO much of this can be done with little or no money by simply raising peoples awareness of the potential dangers and how we should react to them.


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## BobF (May 25, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Isn't it equally one-dimensional to dismiss the possibility that the large number of automatic and other weapons in the US contribute mightily to the problem?  Or to dismiss the far lower gun death and school shooting statistics in countries that are nearly identical to the US when it comes to all factors except private weapon ownership?



Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss?   They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.

We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US.   Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns.    In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold.   So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.

Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages.   It is not the idea of guns to be scared of.   People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.


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## NancyNGA (May 25, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it is a mistake to focus on guns or schools. ...


I'll throw out another reason other than guns---social media chatrooms. What do many of these shooters seem to have in common? Posting outrageous things on Facebook-like forums.

Teenagers have strange thoughts sometimes---thoughts they wouldn't dare share with anyone they know in real life, except maybe their best friend. Even a best friend is likely to cringe and run away when it is mentioned more than once.

On a chatroom, a lot of sick people from all over the world can "find" each other. The bullies, the manipulators, the bully wannabes cheering them on, the enablers, and trolls purposely stirring up trouble. 

I wish I were articulate enough to describe this, but it's an explosive mix, in my opinion. Pretty soon it becomes an "I dare you" situation. And "I'll prove to you I mean it," and there becomes a competition to see who can come up with the most outrageous thought.

How do you solve that? Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can start a chatroom now. For free.


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## StarSong (May 25, 2018)

BobF said:


> Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss?   They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.
> 
> We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US.   Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns.    In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold.   So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.
> 
> Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages.   It is not the idea of guns to be scared of.   People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.



I did read the full article about the Swiss, and appreciate you posting it.  The Swiss have a wise approach to gun ownership.  That said, their culture is not our culture.  Swiss gun laws work for them because they approach gun ownership very differently than Americans do.  Would that it we could easily make it otherwise, but we cannot.        

Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the   prevalence of weapons — *and* *also why the Swiss mentality can’t be   transposed to the current American reality* — is the culture of   responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from   generation to generation."  (The emphasis is mine.)            

Note that even with their strong gun and shooting culture, Swiss citizens have far fewer guns per capita than Americans.  

Thank you again for the reference to this article.  I learn something every day on SF.


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## KingsX (May 25, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the   prevalence of weapons — *and* *also why the Swiss mentality can’t be   transposed to the current American reality* — is the culture of   responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from   generation to generation."  (The emphasis is mine.)
> 
> .




"Responsibility and safety" describes America of 70 years ago, before cultural marxists destroyed it.

.


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## Traveler (May 25, 2018)

When we begin to zero in on precisely why those young men are so very angry, we will be a huge step closer to solving the problem. 

I have noticed that in after action reports, many students have said something about how "weird" he was or "He never did fit in". If that is true, then the "rejection" might be ONE of the causes. Enough to make anyone feel depressed and finally deep-anger ?

Just curious, has anyone read that any of the killers were "jocks". IMO, that is one way of fitting in. I have a gut feeling that none of the killers were "jocks".

Were any of them involved with some school club ? Chess ? Debating? Any club ? Again, I suspect not.


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## Leonie (May 25, 2018)

Bullying has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread, and I agree that it seems to have some relevance. One of the things I have often thought about is how when someone stands up to the bullies we all give them a virtual slap on the back. 

I remember seeing a rather disturbing youtube video of a bully being flattened by his apparent victim. The kid who 'snapped' and hit back was given almost hero status on social media and all over our TV, but all I saw when I watched the video was a kid, who happened to be a bit bigger, picking up a slightly smaller kid and slamming him into the concrete.  Ok, he was acting in self-defence, no argument there, but did we need to turn him into some sort of hero?  I'm just glad he never had a gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BdAk7H6Lk


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## Traveler (May 25, 2018)

Leonie said:


> Bullying has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread, and I agree that it seems to have some relevance. One of the things I have often thought about is how when someone stands up to the bullies we all give them a virtual slap on the back.
> 
> I remember seeing a rather disturbing youtube video of a bully being flattened by his apparent victim. The kid who 'snapped' and hit back was given almost hero status on social media and all over our TV, but all I saw when I watched the video was a kid, who happened to be a bit bigger, picking up a slightly smaller kid and slamming him into the concrete.  Ok, he was acting in self-defence, no argument there, but did we need to turn him into some sort of hero?  I'm just glad he never had a gun.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BdAk7H6Lk



*
My reply ? Hell yes, we need to make him a hero.  With that one bit of self defense he achieved a life-time of healing. I'm proud of him. I only wish he had then booted the bully in the face. I would have.*


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## Shalimar (May 25, 2018)

Jocks are not always model citizens either, many have been accused of ****** assault. Perhaps too much adulation can be an emotional minefield also, leading to an extreme  sense of entitlement in some young male’s eyes.


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## Leonie (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *
> My reply ? Hell yes, we need to make him a hero. With that one bit of self defense he achieved a life-time of healing. I'm proud of him. I only wish he had then booted the bully in the face. I would have.*



But what if the bully ended up with a broken neck when his head hit the concrete, or God forbid, the bullied kid brought a gun to school and shot him and his friends who were standing around taking photos?  Would he still be a hero then?  Don't get me wrong I hate bullies and in the past have told my own son to stand up to a kid who was bullying him but kids are kids and maybe they sometimes overreact.  

I don't know what the answer is, but making guns harder to come by would be top of my list.


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## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

That little punk bully got *EXACTLY *what he was asking for.  What Leonie may not realize is that the video showed a boy self-healing. It is very unlikely he will ever be bullied again by anyone and certainly never by that little punk. In the process, we just maybe saw a future shooting nipped in the bud. 

I can promise that the boy who defended himself, now feels much better about himself.


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## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Jocks are not always model citizens either, many have been accused of ****** assault. Perhaps too much adulation can be an emotional minefield also, leading to an extreme  sense of entitlement in some young male’s eyes.



I don't recall suggesting that *all *jocks are model citizens. I do, however, believe that sports are a great thing for boys. All 3 of my nephews were football players from age 6 onward, and all 3 are now college grads. One of whom is an officer in the U.S Coast guard.

In any event, to goal here is to examine ways to stop school shootings. Sex assault is another situation entirely.


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## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't recall suggesting that *all *jocks are model citizens. I do, however, believe that sports are a great thing for boys. All 3 of my nephews were football players from age 6 onward, and all 3 are now college grads. One of whom is an officer in the U.S Coast guard.
> 
> In any event, to goal here is to examine ways to stop school shootings. Sex assault is another situation entirely.



I understand the goal of this thread, but self esteem speaks to cause and effect regarding possible motivation of young school shooters. Bullying has been explored as a possible trigger. You raised the prospect of sports as being a vehicle for kids to find a niche where they fit in. For most kids this works well, as it has done for your sons. However, for some it exacerbates the 

problem. As for ****** assault not being relevant to this subject, I disagree, any pattern of violence can be a marker for future murders. I have seen it in my own practice.


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## BobF (May 26, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I did read the full article about the Swiss, and appreciate you posting it.  The Swiss have a wise approach to gun ownership.  That said, their culture is not our culture.  Swiss gun laws work for them because they approach gun ownership very differently than Americans do.  Would that it we could easily make it otherwise, but we cannot.
> 
> Within the article itself are these words: "One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the   prevalence of weapons — *and* *also why the Swiss mentality can’t be   transposed to the current American reality* — is the culture of   responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from   generation to generation."  (The emphasis is mine.)
> 
> ...



I do appreciate that you have read about the Swiss.   Many have not.

From the article is the following:



> *Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia* in the number  of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and  private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only  8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the  violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun  homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate  in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people,  according to a 2011 U.N. report.



And more from the report:



> One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the  prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be  transposed to the current American reality — *is the culture of  responsibility and safety* that is anchored in society and passed from  generation to generation.



Sad but that is very true.    In the US we are now denying teaching such items and refrain from insisting on it.   We have those 'jock' types, paid enormous wages and protected by our laws and military that refuse to stand for the flag at the beginnings of the games.   Something so simple and basic to showing beliefs for our countries laws.   Maybe all who refuse to stand should be drafted and run through a year or more of military training.

Somehow, the Swiss do pass on it's loyalties to younger folks.   This is but one of several openings presented in that article.   We need to change our ways, to get back to the loyalties of our past years.   When parents can be jailed for attempting to punish a child, there is little hope for the future of the US.   The author of the Swiss article sees these areas and notes the difference.    The Swiss encourage lessons in loyalty while the US just no longer seems to care.

I am happy you read the post.   There is plenty to learn from watching the Swiss.

I believe that one of the nations we used for ideas for our Constitution was the Swiss.   We also gained by borrowing from the English, French, and others.

Have a good day.


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## Sunny (May 26, 2018)

Nancy, that's an interesting point about the social media chatrooms. They are just another vehicle for communication; yet, as you say, they make it much easier for violent and emotionally disturbed people to find each other and share ideas.  However, they also do a lot of good.  Probably nothing can be done about them.


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## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

BobF said:


> The terms AK-47 AR-15 do not mean full automatic military style guns.   These same rifles can be sold in either form of full automatic, fire and repeat fire as long as the trigger is held, or standard, fire once for each pull of the trigger.   More shots would require more pulls of the trigger.
> 
> I don't know why so many folks get confused by the names.   That describes their appearance only.  The full automatic is illegal for the private market so only semi automatic would be the public market item.



Bob the difference is immaterial between them. So you can flick a switch? So what?

People are sick of the killings of innocents with weapons designed for the battlefield.

You can explain the difference all you like.

People don't care. The damage being inflicted is your evidence.


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## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob the difference is immaterial between them. So you can flick a switch? So what?
> 
> People are sick of the killings of innocents with weapons designed for the battlefield.
> 
> ...



Full automatic and semiautomatic are different guns.   It is illegal to sell the full automatic.    So only those that had been sold prior to the new laws would have a lever or switch or whatever to change.   The newer guns can not be changed.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I understand the goal of this thread, but self esteem speaks to cause and effect regarding possible motivation of young school shooters. Bullying has been explored as a possible trigger. You raised the prospect of sports as being a vehicle for kids to find a niche where they fit in. For most kids this works well, as it has done for your sons. However, for some it exacerbates the
> 
> problem. As for ****** assault not being relevant to this subject, I disagree, any pattern of violence can be a marker for future murders. I have seen it in my own practice.



Once again, we are talking at cross purposes. Murders, in general, are not related to school shootings. Two different animals. 
I don't think this is the time or place to be discussing feminist politics. So, unless you have* personally* counseled school shooters, I'd rather not re-open that can of worms.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

BobF,  I agree with what you have been saying about guns and a broken society. Unfortunately, there are some anti-gun fanatics who will never listen to a word you have to say on the topic. 

We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights. 

We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.


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## StarSong (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.



You can't possibly know that, can you?  That may be the NRA hyperbole used to dismiss any pedaling back on current gun laws, but the argument rings hollow.  It wasn't so long ago that medical marijuana wasn't being considered for legalization because of that same slippery-slope theory.  As it happens, MM has been legal in many states for quite a while.  Somehow those moves didn't trigger a public groundswell urging the legalization of heroin.   

p.s.  I know a lot of people who would like to see greater restrictions and licensing for certain automatic and semi-automatic weapons, however I don't personally know any American who is interested in outlawing home protection pistols or hunting rifles.  This isn't to suggest that some no-guns-at-all people aren't out there, but polling shows they are in the vast minority.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

BobF said:


> Did you take time to read the article about the Swiss?   They have a number of guns owned per person up near the top.
> 
> We do not have large numbers of automatic guns in the US.   Many folks are more interested in private security and that means for most it is pistol types of guns.    In the current rules the full automatic is not to be sold.   So there should be fewer and fewer as time goes on.
> 
> Please do read about the Swiss and how they get started on guns at early ages.   It is not the idea of guns to be scared of.   People with little knowledge of how to handle difficult situation, mental problems, are the ones to worry about.



Bob you keep quoting Switzerland as a model for gun ownership.  Well guess what? What you are leaving out of the equation is that ex military get to keep their weapons so that would account for a huge amount of weapons.

Now conscription is mandatory in Switzerland.  Would Americans put up with mandatory conscription? Hold your breath.

*Switzerland* has mandatory *military service* (German: Militärdienst; French: service militaire; Italian: servizio militare) in the *Swiss* Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are *conscripted* when they reach the age of majority, though women may volunteer for any position.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> BobF,  I agree with what you have been saying about guns and a broken society. Unfortunately, there are some anti-gun fanatics who will never listen to a word you have to say on the topic.
> 
> We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.
> 
> We both know that the banning of any semi-automatic, would be just the sharp edge of the wedge. Once that is achieved, they will keep pounding away until pistols are outlawed, followed quickly by shot-guns and deer hunting rifles.



*We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.*

Sorry I can't agree with that .  I have never seen that stated here. It's a scare tactic promoted by the gun lobby.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

BobF said:


> Full automatic and semiautomatic are different guns.   It is illegal to sell the full automatic.    So only those that had been sold prior to the new laws would have a lever or switch or whatever to change.   The newer guns can not be changed.



Bob.  I keep telling you.  No one cares about that.

The present ones allowed are setting records. People are sick of hearing about children being murdered with weapons designed for the battlefield to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.

I know I can't convince you but I will keep trying that you don't need a semi automatic rifle weapons for home defense where someone can get them. 

The states have different laws for safe storage unfortunately because it should be a federal requirement.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

StarSong said:


> You can't possibly know that, can you?  That may be the NRA hyperbole used to dismiss any pedaling back on current gun laws, but the argument rings hollow.  It wasn't so long ago that medical marijuana wasn't being considered for legalization because of that same slippery-slope theory.  As it happens, MM has been legal in many states for quite a while.  Somehow those moves didn't trigger a public groundswell urging the legalization of heroin.
> 
> p.s.  I know a lot of people who would like to see greater restrictions and licensing for certain automatic and semi-automatic weapons, however I don't personally know any American who is interested in outlawing home protection pistols or hunting rifles.  This isn't to suggest that some no-guns-at-all people aren't out there, but polling shows they are in the vast minority.




Actually, I can and do know exactly how liberalism works. It *IS *the sharp edge of the wedge.

 I well remember the issues of abortion. At first it was merely "My body. My rights" and abortion "to save the life of the mother". Later it became late term abortion where a woman could have a "partial-birth" abortion just a few days prior to normal delivery. It then deteriorated into schools arranging abortion for 14 year-old girls --- without the parents knowledge or consent. 

I trust liberals about as far as I can throw a refrigerator. Give 'em an inch and I guarantee they'll take ten miles. 

Once there was national discussion about instructing tolerance on gayness in the public schools. "Hey, no problem", I said. Now they are teaching transgenderism to kindergarten kids. 

Ban any semi-automatic long gun, and soon there will be no guns of any type allowed. God, help us after that.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Actually, I can and do know exactly how liberalism works. It *IS *the sharp edge of the wedge.
> 
> I well remember the issues of abortion. At first it was merely "My body. My rights" and abortion "to save the life of the mother". Later it became late term abortion where a woman could gave a "partial-birth" abortion just a few days prior to normal delivery. It then deteriorated into schools arranging abortion for 14 year-old girls --- without the parents knowledge or consent.
> 
> ...



Best you stop now.  You are getting into heavy duty politics and the thread will be closed.

God help us after that?

Read the title of the thread.

"Dear God another school shooting?"

People are praying for different things. I'm with the title of the thread. What you are creating is an imaginary scenario.

What we have is 'another school shooting"?


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> *We have seen on this thread that some folks would completely abolish the 2nd Amendment to The Bill of Rights.*
> 
> Sorry I can't agree with that .  I have never seen that stated here. It's a scare tactic promoted by the gun lobby.




I am NOT a member of the NRA nor do I read any NRA literature. 

I don't have the time or interest in re-reading the entire 13 pages of posts but there was a person who talked about "A well regulated militia, of colonial times, no longer being valid". Another person stated that we did not need to be protected. I think he/she mentioned some sarcastic remark about the dangers of "herds of bison".


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Camper6, our society has gone to hell in a hand-basket.  You think it is bad now ? Just wait. You ain't seen nothin' yet. 

Until, and unless, we are willing to drastically change how we raise our children, school killings will keep getting worse and worse.

Even if guns are totally banned, it will continue. Does the name timothy McVeigh ring a bell ? He managed to kill 168 people and he never needed a gun. 

Don't kid yourself. The info to repeat that act is out there on the www and any kid who can read, can do the same. Even if a would be killer did not build such a massive bomb there are still very simple ways to build a "pressure cooker bomb", just like the Boston Bombers did.

Change society or get used to the "new normal".


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob.  I keep telling you.  No one cares about that.
> 
> The present ones allowed are setting records. People are sick of hearing about children being murdered with weapons designed for the battlefield to kill as many people as possible in as short a time as possible.
> 
> ...



First off I say you are completely wrong and you just do not read what I post.

Back to firing rates and we no longer are allowed to sell full automatic weapons.   That two guns look alike and operate differently and still called by the same name seems to make no difference to you.    Make the press start talking about full automatic and semi automatic when describing the guns.   Calling a semi could be a military combat weapon but for sale to public there can be no full automatic sold.   For someone to have a full automatic means they bought before the current laws were passed.   He can't sell it as such and will have to have it converted to semi automatic.   So in time there will be no more full automatic military weapons.

Now just what is it you don't understand about full automatic(repeating firing) or semi automatic (fires only when the trigger has been pressed again - no repeating firing possible.


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob you keep quoting Switzerland as a model for gun ownership.  Well guess what? What you are leaving out of the equation is that ex military get to keep their weapons so that would account for a huge amount of weapons.
> 
> Now conscription is mandatory in Switzerland.  Would Americans put up with mandatory conscription? Hold your breath.
> 
> *Switzerland* has mandatory *military service* (German: Militärdienst; French: service militaire; Italian: servizio militare) in the *Swiss* Army for all able-bodied male citizens, who are *conscripted* when they reach the age of majority, though women may volunteer for any position.



That is at least one per person but they do have more.   They are posted to be right behind the US in gun ownership.   They start gun activities at 12 years, shooting guns is a national thing, for them I guess it is better than golf, baseball, football, and it is a nonexclusive activity from youth to well in the years family sport.   Something the US should take on and be proud of.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

BobF said:


> First off I say you are completely wrong and you just do not read what I post.
> 
> Back to firing rates and we no longer are allowed to sell full automatic weapons.   That two guns look alike and operate differently and still called by the same name seems to make no difference to you.    Make the press start talking about full automatic and semi automatic when describing the guns.   Calling a semi could be a military combat weapon but for sale to public there can be no full automatic sold.   For someone to have a full automatic means they bought before the current laws were passed.   He can't sell it as such and will have to have it converted to semi automatic.   So in time there will be no more full automatic military weapons.
> 
> Now just what is it you don't understand about full automatic(repeating firing) or semi automatic (fires only when the trigger has been pressed again - no repeating firing possible.



Bob. I really don't care about any of that as an excuse to stop what is happening. It's not working.

I have a grandson that goes to school and can't defend himself.

Thats what I care about. I'll be selfish. I don't care about your rights or distinctions about guns. I just want action to stop it and that's what this thread is about.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob.  I don't care about your rights ....




Need I say more ?


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

People who think banning guns will solve the school killings are like the slum lord who refuses to fix all of the faulty wiring in his apartment complex. Fires keep breaking out, so he places buckets of sand in the hallways and posts signs that say,  "USE IN CASE OF FIRE"

Electrical fires, like gun killings, are a symptom of a must greater problem.

In the case of gun killing in schools, the problem is a broken society and a  "touchy-feely"  liberal approach to child rearing.


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob. I really don't care about any of that as an excuse to stop what is happening. It's not working.
> 
> I have a grandson that goes to school and can't defend himself.
> 
> Thats what I care about. I'll be selfish. I don't care about your rights or distinctions about guns. I just want action to stop it and that's what this thread is about.



I don't think StarSong wants some half sensible and not working quick answer to this US problem.   That has been tried too many times so far but no success.  Chasing the wrong problem will never get anything fixed.   We have a major social problem that needs fixed.   It has taken years to get this messed up and it will take many years to get things straight again.    

We need some education that tells folks how to adapt to others ways.   We need some education that teaches our graduates how to think and operate.   Recent reports say our college graduates are inferior to students from other countries.   This is just one comment on how the US is messed up from the middle to the outside.   We need to fix much more than just the small minded anti gun stuff some wish to chase - now - and forget all te other things going on.

You don't care about my efforts to bring up these other area and where to find good examples.   Then don't wast others times by reading what you hate and wasting out time with outright negative and useless comments.

We must eliminate sloppy raising of children, at home and in our schools.  Discipline never really hurt anyone, but the kids learned soon not to talk bad to the teacher and parents.   A good start in life.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Need I say more ?



Yes. Finish the quote. There's a choice there. Your rights or a dead grandson?


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> People who think banning guns will solve the school killings are like the slum lord who refuses to fix all of the faulty wiring in his apartment complex. Fires keep breaking out, so he places buckets of sand in the hallways and posts signs that say,  "USE IN CASE OF FIRE"
> 
> Electrical fires, like gun killings, are a symptom of a must greater problem.
> 
> In the case of gun killing in schools, the problem is a broken society and a  "touchy-feely"  liberal approach to child rearing.



But that approach isn't working and leaving guns out of the solution is no solution as the last two decades have shown.

I have had people tell me that background checks don't work either and they violate their rights.

The landlord should install a sprinkler system instead of buckets of sand. You can't keep making the same mistakes and expect different results. The building has to be brought up to code. You can't live in the past.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

In my experience, a “touchy feely” approach to child rearing is preferable to being raised by the frozen people. Children need guidance, role models, consistency, boundaries, but most of all, they need unconditional love, and to feel that they are worthy members of society. Without these touch stones they limp through their lives.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Nancy, that's an interesting point about the social media chatrooms. They are just another vehicle for communication; yet, as you say, they make it much easier for violent and emotionally disturbed people to find each other and share ideas.  However, they also do a lot of good.  Probably nothing can be done about them.


Qft.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

Bob.

"You don't care about my efforts to bring up these other area and where  to find good examples.   Then don't wast others times by reading what  you hate and wasting out time with outright negative and useless  comments."

Bob.
I copy over your posts and respond to them.  I'm sorry but I don't appreciate you trying to educate me in the difference between an automatic or a semi automatic rifle which I consider both to be battlefield material for trained soldiers.

Canada right next door, has the same type of people and the same social problems as the United States and yet nowhere close to the homicide rates caused by weapons.

You can't 'eliminate sloppy raising of children'.  It's an impossible task.

I'll give you and Traveler the last word on this issue because now it's starting to get personal comments instead of the issues.

I don't dig that type of argument.


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> But that approach isn't working and leaving guns out of the solution is no solution as the last two decades have shown.
> 
> I have had people tell me that background checks don't work either and they violate their rights.
> 
> The landlord should install a sprinkler system instead of buckets of sand. You can't keep making the same mistakes and expect different results. The building has to be brought up to code. You can't live in the past.



No one is saying we should leave guns out of the discussion.   We have tried that and nothing is changed at all.

What we have not done is to come back off this super nice sugar filled stuff that does not teach one item of behavior and apply more discipline back into our schools and family life.   When young I could expect to get sent to the principles office.   Depending on subject he might call my home so arriving home could be another lecture about my behavior.   I saw no problem then and still think it is something missing from our education system from grade schools on through our colleges.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> In my experience, a “touchy feely” approach to child rearing is preferable to being raised by the frozen people. Children need guidance, role models, consistency, boundaries, but most of all, they need unconditional love, and to feel that they are worthy members of society. Without these touch stones they limp through their lives.




Exactly true. Except you left out 3 very important things. Loving disciple, a firm steady hand and proper supervision. The so-called "quality-time" doesn't cut it. The concept of "quality time" was invented to make parents that are not around enough, feel better. 

Back in the days when Mama's word was Law, these mass killings didn't happen in schools. 

And, yes, Camper, there were just as many guns/capita back in those days.


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Bob.
> 
> "You don't care about my efforts to bring up these other area and where  to find good examples.   Then don't wast others times by reading what  you hate and wasting out time with outright negative and useless  comments."
> 
> ...



Thank  you for wanting to stop this one sided conversation.    We have played this gun game far too long and need to change our attacks to other places and hope we find the right solution.    Taking out the guns, inanimate items, and freeing the wild mannered ones from suspicion and rethinking our education system are very important too.   It is a big and wild world.    

Canada is not the same as the US.    Where are your millions of Mexican illegal immigrants.   I believe Canada had plenty as we saw them sneak  across the US and pass into Canada.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Exactly true. Except you left out 3 very important things. Loving disciple, a firm steady hand and proper supervision. The so-called "quality-time" doesn't cut it. The concept of "quality time" was invented to make parents that are not around enough, feel better.
> 
> Back in the days when Mama's word was Law, these mass killings didn't happen in schools.
> 
> And, yes, Camper, there were just as many guns/capita back in those days.



 It is a false assumption to state that I left out “loving discipline, a firm steady hand, and proper supervision.” Those are implicit parts of providing guidance, boundaries, and role models, as for “quality time being invented to make parents that are not around enough feel better,” that is an oversimplification. Of course there are absentee parents, but there 

are also many parents totally invested in their children. My children knew that there specific times that belonged to them. Everything else went by the wayside. We had a marvellous bond, and enjoyed  the quality time we spent together. I ran a child centric household for over twenty  years.I also disagree with the idea so prevalent among some seniors that the good old days reflected a June Cleaveresque perfect family scenario, equipped with super parenting . While some may have been 

fortunate enough to experience such, many did not. There have always been good and bad parents and each generation has both positive and negative qualities.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

I don't recall anyone talking about a "Leave It To Beaver" household.  I sure as heck never experienced anything remotely like that. But, my mother was there, *in the house, 24/7.* Believe me when I say she knew every darn thing us kids were up to. 

In my opinion, if people wish to have children then there are responsibilities that go along with that. If an adult is not present in the house, when a child returns home from school, then they are taking a huge risk. 

I have seen the terrible cost of parents who never disciple their children (ie goofy liberal thinking), and it isn't a pretty picture. One of my friends never disciplined her boy. She thought it was "so cute" when as an 8 year old, he tried to sell pot to his mom's friends at a party. He became a heroin addict, thief, liar, and chronically unemployed. What did she do ? When he became homeless she enabled him by buying him a house AND paid the mortgage every month. But that's liberalism for you. Just plain goofy.

And, Oh yeah. How did her son thank her for her naïve kindness? He stole from his mother at every opportunity.


----------



## BobF (May 26, 2018)

Hear is an example of how lousy our modern way of raising a family is working out.

http://www.odditycentral.com/news/p...-for-refusing-to-move-out-of-their-house.html


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

BobF said:


> Hear is an example of how lousy our modern way of raising a family is working out.
> 
> http://www.odditycentral.com/news/p...-for-refusing-to-move-out-of-their-house.html




HaHa yeah, Bob. I saw that. That is precisely what I've been talking about. No consequences for negative behavior results in a ruined "child". Now he is a ruined adult. Fat chance of him ever getting a woman to build a nest with him and, God forbid, making a family.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't recall anyone talking about a "Leave It To Beaver" household.  I sure as heck never experienced anything remotely like that. But, my mother was there, *in the house, 24/7.* Believe me when I say she knew every darn thing us kids were up to.
> 
> In my opinion, if people wish to have children then there are responsibilities that go along with that. If an adult is not present in the house, when a child returns home from school, then they are taking a huge risk.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I never said anything about not disciplining children. I am a liberal, not goofy in the least, and have raised two educated, responsible, ethical,  gainfully employed children, Millennials. Politics had nothing to do with it, morality did.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm, I never said anything about not disciplining children. I am a liberal, not goofy in the least, and have raised two educated, responsible, ethical,  gainfully employed children, Millennials. Politics had nothing to do with it, morality did.



I think you must admit that there are millions of parents who haven't the vaguest idea of how to raise children. They allow their kids to explore the internet at random, having "chats" with adult perverts, they don't even attempt to control what the kids see on cable Tv, hard-coreporn is quite "in" with youngsters, nor do parents disallow ultra-violent electronic games. 

Prayer, in school, has been illegal for 1/2 a century. 

Girls are getting pregnant at 13 and 14 years of age and the schools are arranging abortions and the parents are never aware.

Kids in their middle-school years are doing and selling drugs.

Last year 58,000 people died of opioid over-doses. There was a recent photo on the news of 2 dead parents, from opioid injection, lying in a car, with 2 toddlers in the back seat

Teachers are subjecting kindergarten kids to transgenderism.

Minor corporal punishment. ie a light paddling, is now a felony crime. 

America has now fallen to 31st place in educational achievement.

Girls, who should not be sexualized, are flaunting their bodies.

Due to radical feminist philosophy men are increasingly losing any right to be head of the household. In frustration, men are just walking away from the family. 

Many, perhaps most, kids have a sense of entitlement with no sense of responsibility or what it means to work.

Moms are gone and the kids are left to their own devices for vast amounts of time.

The mother of the Newtown killer is the one who bought the AR-15 rifles for her darling son, who later murdered 23 1st graders. 

Kids are not receiving anything approaching a well balanced diet because neither parent knows how to cook.

Kids are getting a false sense of personal contact due to cell phones.

All of that is happening and people wonder, 'What is happening to America's children?'

Poor parenting is like drunk driving. Many get away with it for years, but eventually  --- people die.

When is America going to wake up ?


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Interesting that I who have dealt with many young people and their parents in my private and professional capacity for thirty years have a vastly different experience than what you describe.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Interesting that I who have dealt with many young people and their parents in my private and professional capacity for thirty years have a vastly different experience than what you describe.



That's because I live in America and you live in Canada. No offense intended but Canadians have no clue what it is like to actually *live *in America. Oh, sure, you get some reports, but living it, and hearing about it, are two entirely different things.

To begin with Canada has no where near the minority problems America has. Heck, Shalimar, 1/2 of America's kids can not even write a coherent paragraph but they know all about transgenderism long before they can add and divide. Something is very wrong with that.


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> That's because I live in America and you live in Canada. No offense intended but Canadians have no clue what it is like to actually *live *in America. Oh, sure, you get some reports, but living it, and hearing about it, are two entirely different things.
> 
> To begin with Canada has no where near the minority problems America has. Heck, Shalimar, 1/2 of America's kids can not even write a coherent paragraph but they know all about transgenderism long before they can add and divide. Something is very wrong with that.




Putin is right when he says Communists won WW2.  Cultural Marxists have undermined and destroyed American culture for the past 70 years

When I say, "cultural marxism",  I refer to the Bolshevik SOCIAL revolution that occurred after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution destroyed Christian Russia.  For the past 70 years a similar social revolution has happened in America and all [former] Western Christian nations.  The difference is ...   Russians fought a civil war against the Bolsheviks and were martyred by the millions.   Americans have surrendered without a fight.

.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Putin is right when he says Communists won WW2.  Cultural Marxists have undermined and destroyed American culture for the past 70 years
> 
> When I say, "cultural marxism",  I refer to the Bolshevik SOCIAL revolution that occurred after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution destroyed Christian Russia.  For the past 70 years a similar social revolution has happened in America and all [former] Western Christian nations.
> .




Exactly so.  One note here. We can hardly expect the ones who are destroying America to ever admit what they are doing. Some may be merely naïve, but some are devoted "true believers" who are determined to destroy our culture. So far they are winning in their quest. The battle is, however, not over. 

It is better to die on our feet than to live on our  knees.


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Exactly so.  One note here. We can hardly expect the ones who are destroying America to ever admit what they are doing. Some may be merely naïve, but some are devoted "true believers" who are determined to destroy our culture. So far they are winning in their quest. The battle is, however, not over.
> 
> 
> It is better to die on our feet than to live on our  knees.




The cultural marxist enemy has won every battle... and ironically they have used America's own system to help them win it.
If the cultural marxist media can't win by manipulating popular opinion,  they will FORCE cultural marxism on the entire nation
via their political influence [like the many unpopular US Supreme Court decisions over the past several decades.]

.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The cultural marxist enemy has won every battle... and ironically they have used America's own system to help them win it.
> If the cultural marxist media can't win by manipulating popular opinion,  they will FORCE cultural marxism on the entire nation
> via their political influence [like the many unpopular US Supreme Court decisions over the past several decades.]
> .




Yes !  Their 1st major victory came in the landmark United States Supreme Court (SCOTUS) decision ENGEL V. VITALE (1962) WHICH made prayer in America's public schools illegal.

A year later, the most hated woman in America, Madalyn Murry O'Hair, won in SCOTUS, the suit  (Murry V. Curlett ) to ban any bible reading or bible teaching in public schools. 

in 1995, Madalyn Murry's body was found at the bottom of a deep dry well in Texas.


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Yes !  Their 1st major victory came in the landmark United States Supreme Court (SCOTUS) decision ENGEL V. VITALE (1962) WHICH made prayer in America's public schools illegal.
> 
> A year later, the most hated woman in America, Madalyn Murry O'Hair, won in SCOTUS, the suit  (Murry V. Curlett ) to ban any bible reading or bible teaching in public schools.
> 
> in 1995, Madalyn Murry's body was found at the bottom of a deep dry well in Texas.




In Russia, the atheist Bolsheviks destroyed churches and murdered millions of Christians.
In America,  they use the system to achieve less messy and more successful results. 

Instead of destroying from the outside, they corrupt from the inside.

I recently saw a documentary about the demise of O'Hair on a true crime TV show.

.


----------



## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

KingsX said:


> In Russia, the atheist Bolsheviks destroyed churches and murdered millions of Christians.
> In America,  they use the system to achieve less messy and more successful results.
> 
> Instead of destroying from the outside, they corrupt from the inside.
> ...




"No great civilization is ever destroyed from without, until it has destroyed itself from within"

----- Will Durant, historian.


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

.

Here is a video of Stalin's destruction of the largest church in Russia,
Moscow's Church of Christ the Saviour near Red Square. 

 Stalin also wanted to likewise destroy iconic St Basil's.  

The video is in English.  Unfortunately, the text that has been added 
to this copy is annoying. But I couldn't find a better copy on YouTube. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoAEKHBtNIA

Today, they don't bother destroying churches. They undermine, pervert
and destroy them from the inside. Here is the latest example.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ple-encouraged-become-priests-church-england/

.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Discussing politics is prohibited on SF.


----------



## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> That's because I live in America and you live in Canada. No offense intended but Canadians have no clue what it is like to actually *live *in America. Oh, sure, you get some reports, but living it, and hearing about it, are two entirely different things.
> 
> To begin with Canada has no where near the minority problems America has. Heck, Shalimar, 1/2 of America's kids can not even write a coherent paragraph but they know all about transgenderism long before they can add and divide. Something is very wrong with that.


Again you betray your lack of knowledge re the land of the Maple Leaf. C’est ca.


----------



## Olivia (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Again you betray your lack of knowledge re the land of the Maple Leaf. C’est ca.



And he also betrays his lack of understanding of what is America. He knows it all. And he slips as to what is his real problem when he says: "_To begin with Canada has no where near the_* minority *_problems America has." _I believe this about explains a lot. As when he outright says that it was two Mexicans that was involved in the Nebraska drug bust. He assumes it was two Mexicans just because of their names which could be any other Spanish or Portuguese names as well. And also just assumes they are illegals. But that is what racism is all about. Why is this acceptable here?


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Discussing politics is prohibited on SF.




The topic is political. 

 My last couple of posts,  I've referenced the historical destruction of society and culture.
As others have pointed out on this topic... that's how we arrived at this point in history.

.


----------



## Camper6 (May 26, 2018)

..
Deleted .  Duplicate.

_

_


----------



## Olivia (May 26, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Olivia.  This sentence was posted by Traveler.
> 
> "_To begin with Canada has no where near the_* minority *_problems America has." _



I thought that's what I said. Am I missing something?


----------



## KingsX (May 26, 2018)

Olivia said:


> I thought that's what I said. Am I missing something?




Yes, that is what you said.

The irony is... here in Texas, Anglos are now the minority.

.


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## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Again you betray your lack of knowledge re the land of the Maple Leaf. C’est ca.




If you say so, then it MUST be true.


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## Shalimar (May 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> If you say so, then it MUST be true.


Ah, Monsieur, neither one of us is an Oracle, hein?


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## Traveler (May 26, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Again you betray your lack of knowledge re the land of the Maple Leaf. C’est ca.





Olivia said:


> And he also betrays his lack of understanding of what is America. He knows it all. And he slips as to what is his real problem when he says: "_To begin with Canada has no where near the_* minority *_problems America has." _I believe this about explains a lot. As when he outright says that it was two Mexicans that was involved in the Nebraska drug bust. He assumes it was two Mexicans just because of their names which could be any other Spanish or Portuguese names as well. And also just assumes they are illegals. But that is what racism is all about. Why is this acceptable here?




It's bad enough when you condemn me for telling the truth. It is absolutely outrageous when you tell lies about me. I never said the drug dealers in question were illegals. You have now called me a racist.  I thought you had learned your lesson about not making personal attacks. You have now been reported.

You may or may not, have enough power to get me banned, but as long as I'm here you will never, ever shut me up.


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## Shalimar (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It's bad enough when you condemn me for telling the truth. It is absolutely outrageous when you tell lies about me. I never said the drug dealers in question were illegals. You have now called me a racist.  I thought you had learned your lesson about not making personal attacks. You have now been reported.
> 
> You may or may not, have enough power to get me banned, but as long as I'm here you will never, ever shut me up.


My goodness, what is my quote doing in this post? Am I reported also? You expect freedom of speech and yet deny it to others? Hardly equitable.


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It's bad enough when you condemn me for telling the truth. It is absolutely outrageous when you tell lies about me. I never said the drug dealers in question were illegals. You have now called me a racist.  I thought you had learned your lesson about not making personal attacks. You have now been reported.
> 
> You may or may not, have enough power to get me banned, but as long as I'm here you will never, ever shut me up.



Go right ahead. I'd love for you to do that. And I never said I wanted you banned, but I'm very sure you have asked me to be. Anyone can check with the admins to find that out. So, you're saying that it was two Mexicans was just your run of the mill opinion because of their Spanish sounding names? Otherwise, how did you come to that conclusion? You still haven't posted the link to the MSN news report that you referenced that said they were two Mexicans. How come, huh?  Go ahead. I dare you to post that link.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> My goodness, what is my quote doing in this post? Am I reported also? You expect freedom of speech and yet deny it to others? Hardly equitable.




Sorry, Shalimar. I honestly don't know how your post got into my reply. Perhaps I clicked on your post without realizing it. I thought I had merely quoted Olivia, Again, my apologies.


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## Shalimar (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Sorry, Shalimar. I honestly don't know how your post got into my reply. Perhaps I clicked on your post without realizing it. I thought I had merely quoted Olivia, Again, my apologies.


Thank you.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Go right ahead. I'd love for you to do that. And I never said I wanted you banned, but I'm very sure you have asked me to be. Anyone can check with the admins to find that out. So, you're saying that it was two Mexicans was just your run of the mill opinion because of their Spanish sounding names? Otherwise, how did you come to that conclusion? You still haven't posted the link to the MSN news report that you referenced that said they were two Mexicans. How come, huh?  Go ahead. I dare you to post that link.




As I said before, "I do not know how to cut and paste", which makes it difficult for me

But just to please you I'll cite two places.

www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/nebraska-fentanyl-bust/index.html

video.foxnews.com/v5789789188001/

additionally there are a dozen or more cites on google. Just google Nebraska drug bust, or Nebraska Fentanyl bust

Be very careful in future when you call me a lair.


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

> Be very careful in future when you call me a lair.



You be careful when accusing someone of saying what they didn't say.


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

> http://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/nebras...ust/index.html
> 
> video.foxnews.com/v5789789188001/





> *Uh-oh!*
> 
> *It could be you, or it could be us, but there's no page here.*



Very funny, haha.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Very funny, haha.



it's there. Just look for it. type in the empty space "Nebraska drug bust" it is about the 4th item down from the top. 
I assume that do know how to do your own research. If you need this mans help, sorry i'm not interested.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> You be careful when accusing someone of saying what they didn't say.




You said, that I said, the 2  drug dealers were illegals. I never said any such thing. You completely made that up in your failed attempt to make me look racist.


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> it's there. Just look for it. type in the empty space "Nebraska drug bust" it is about the 4th item down from the top.
> I assume that do know how to do your own research. If you need this mans help, sorry i'm not interested.



Good one. You can't find it, so you expect me to do it for you? LOL  And I should be interested in your help? Really?


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> You said, that I said, the 2  drug dealers were illegals. I never said any such thing. You completely made that up in your failed attempt to make me look racist.



I said that you said that? *I* said that you *assumed *they were illegals because you *assumed* they were Mexcians, which you still haven't proved that they were, and you still haven't said why you did. I didn't say that you *said* they were illegals. I never said you lied. I believed that you really believed that they were Mexicans and illegels.  Big difference.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> And he also betrays his lack of understanding of what is America. He knows it all. And he slips as to what is his real problem when he says: "_To begin with Canada has no where near the_* minority *_problems America has." _I believe this about explains a lot. As when he outright says that it was two Mexicans that was involved in the Nebraska drug bust. He assumes it was two Mexicans just because of their names which could be any other Spanish or Portuguese names as well. And also just assumes they are illegals. But that is what racism is all about. Why is this acceptable here?




I repeat, I never said a word about illegals. *You said that.* If you are going to make rude personal attacks on me, at least get your facts straight.

With Spanish/Hispanic surnames, we can be certain the drugs dealers are NOT Eskimo. But like many liberals you detest the truth. Why is that ? Hmm ?


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## Olivia (May 27, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I repeat, I never said a word about illegals. *You said that.* If you are going to make rude personal attacks on me, at least get your facts straight.
> 
> With Spanish/Hispanic surnames, we can be certain the drugs dealers are NOT Eskimo. But like many liberals you detest the truth. Why is that ? Hmm ?



Here's a fact. Why did you say they were two Mexicans? You actually *said *that. Why?


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Here's a fact. Why did you say they were two Mexicans? You actually *said *that. Why?



I said that because they ARE MEXICAN. I'm all, done playing your silly game. You are not the public prosecutor. Have fun by your self.


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## Traveler (May 27, 2018)

To all of the folks who were enjoying the debate on school shootings , I apologize that the thread was hijacked by someone who has a personal grudge against me.  I was caught unawares, off guard, and I briefly got sucked into her temper tantrum. What exactly was my "crime" ?   I don't know how to do cites that people can easily click on. 

Additionally, she seems upset that I don't pay enough attention to her. She has threatened to have nothing further to do with me on 3 previous times, yet she keeps returning to launch her rude, personal,  attacks. 

Again, I apologize to all the other posters.


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