# Passenger dragged off Plane



## AprilT (Apr 10, 2017)

Passenger refused to leave plane voluntarily after being asked to get off to make room for staff.  He was forcibly removed.  It's in the airlines right to ask passengers to leave a plane when overbooked, but, this was over kill and done it seems after the fact.


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## Ruthanne (Apr 10, 2017)

I saw this on tv and felt sorry for the man.  They mishandled him and hit his lip and made it bleed.  At least they should have had someone get him off the plane who was capable of getting him off without hurting him if they had to take him off.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2017)

From the story I heard it was the fault of the airline.  I guess when they found that the flight was overbooked they started to ask for volunteers to give up their spots on that plane, and they offered up to $800.  When they needed one more person off the plane, they randomly picked this poor guy.  I don't blame him for not wanting to leave the plane, he was a doctor with business to attend to and he had a regular ticket, it's not like he was just flying stand-by and knew he may not make that flight.  They should have done what they needed to, offer more money until they got one more volunteer.

I also heard that the seats were just for their airline employees to go to another airport where they had flights to work on.  Well, they should have just put one of their employees on another airline in a case like that IMO.  It would've been a lot cheaper for them in the long run.

I hope this man sues them for calling the cops and taking such drastic physical action, that's way out of line in my opinion.  I don't know what's going on with these airlines these days, but I'm glad I rarely have to fly anywhere.  Ideally, they wouldn't have allowed the man to board in the first place, dragging him off on the floor was outrageous.


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## nvtribefan (Apr 10, 2017)

And suddenly, Delta doesn't look so bad after all.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2017)

Customer service I never hope to see. Our news has educated us ignorant Aussies with a headline 



> *Can airlines really kick a paid passenger off an overbooked flight?*



I am surprised to learn that not only is it possible, it is also commonplace in America.



> AIRLINES in the United States often oversell flights on purpose, only to kick paid passengers off — but no other incident has attracted as much attention as the man who was dragged off a plane in Chicago last week.
> Video posted on Facebook showed the shock on the faces of other passengers as the man, understood to be a doctor, was dragged off the plane kicking and screaming after he refused to give up his paid seat on an overbooked flight.
> 
> And it created a public relations nightmare for the airline as news of the video spread.
> ...



Why do Americans put up with this practice? IMO overbooking should be illegal and casual vacancies should be filled from standby passengers. Something for the new WH Administration to look into perhaps?


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 11, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Customer service I never hope to see. Our news has educated us ignorant Aussies with a headline
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You've just seen what happens when someone refuses to put up with it.  A presumably peaceful law abiding senior citizen is treated like a common criminal and hauled away like he was in some little banana republic instead of the greatest country in the world.  It's time to wake up America!


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## oldman (Apr 11, 2017)

As a retired United pilot, I take exception to this practice and always have. This episode all began with the gate agent. Gate agents are supposed to know how many seats are available on the plane and then to make certain that they do not board more passengers than what they have seats for. I had something similar happen on one of my flights from San Francisco to Dallas. The gate agent screwed up the count and allowed two more passengers to board without checking to make sure that the seats were available, which in this case they were not. Airlines have the right to remove passengers from a plane, but it has always turned out bad for the airline that follows this practice. 

On my flight, fortunately, United offered each passenger a $400.00 voucher that could be used for any future flight and a ride to Dallas on the next available flight. On this particular flight, we had several passengers willing to give up their seat without having to beg or remove anyone. Although the Captain is in charge of the aircraft once he has boarded the plane, this issue is out of his hands.


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## Ken N Tx (Apr 11, 2017)

_This article originally appeared on TIME.com._
 In an email to employees on Monday, the United Airlines CEO faulted a passenger who was forcibly removed and dragged from an overbooked flight for being “disruptive and belligerent.”
 The  airline faced a wave of backlash on Monday, after videos showed  officers dragging the passenger off United flight 3411 because it had  been overbooked. The man also sustained injuries to head when he struck  an armrest while being carried out.
 “This  situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we  politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact  Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help,” CEO Oscar Munoz said in  email to employees, reported by CNBC. “Our employees followed  established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I  deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all  of you.”


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## Ken N Tx (Apr 11, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> I saw this on tv and felt sorry for the man.  They mishandled him and hit his lip and made it bleed.  At least they should have had someone get him off the plane who was capable of getting him off without hurting him if they had to take him off.



The man doing the actual dragging does not appear to be a police officer..(???)


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 11, 2017)

I got a real kick out of Jimmy Kimmel's take on this awful event and his version of a United Airlines commercial.


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2017)

When we check in at the departure section of the airport we are allocated a seat number. How is it possible to allocate  seats to more passengers than there are seats?

In this recent case, the correct number of passengers were boarded and seated but the airline wanted to prioritise four employees and were determined to bump four passengers from the plane. This is totally a totally unacceptable way to treat paying customers. Surely there are other ways to shuttle the staff from one airport to another. 

By laying a hand on any of the passengers I believe the staff were guilty of assault because the passengers had every right to refuse to give up their seats. Whoever allowed it to get so out of hand needs to be held to account.


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## Don M. (Apr 11, 2017)

It seems that airlines have become little more than an airborne "Greyhound Bus" in recent years...shove as many as possible on board, and offer minimal amenities.  Flying used to be a pleasure, where the passengers were treated almost like VIP's....sadly, no more....unless you buy a First Class seat.  If an airline cannot even "count" the number of passengers slated to take a given flight, that shows a severe lack of operational procedures, on their part.  

I hope this passenger takes United to court, and wins a substantial settlement...perhaps then, that will send a wake up call to an industry that increasingly treats its airplanes like airborne "Cattle Cars".


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## Falcon (Apr 11, 2017)

I would NEVER allow myself to be dragged off an airline !  I would walk off myself and take up the matter
afterwards with the airline company and/or a lawyer.

Oh, and what's  this about the man being a "doctor" ?  What does THAT have to do with anything?

Are we supposed to genuflect in their presence?

IMO, He ASKED to be dragged off by NOT complying with rules.


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## Don M. (Apr 11, 2017)

Falcon said:


> I would NEVER allow myself to be dragged off an airline !  I would walk off myself and take up the matter
> afterwards with the airline company and/or a lawyer.
> 
> Oh, and what's  this about the man being a "doctor" ?  What does THAT have to do with anything?
> ...



I tend to agree with you.  If an airline screws up, and I would have to give up my seat, I would like to think that I would be "Adult" enough to avoid making a Scene, and just grumble a bit while heading for the airline ticket counter to demand talking to someone in a management position.  Things happen that are beyond our control, but behaving badly just makes the situation worse.


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## Robusta (Apr 11, 2017)

So the treatment was ok with you?  Why didn't they just raise the bid to give up a seat.  
What made them choose this particular passenger to abuse, What went into the decision?  I can promise you that if they had offered a generous enough package some passenger would have eventually accepted.

What did this little dance end up costing them?

While there is a limit on what they have to offer the is no limit on what they may offer.
How much is it woth it to them to get this particular crew to where the need to be?  Obviously several million or so.

Once you are off the plane they hold all the cards,  I may be persuaded to leave,but my deal is going to inked and witnessed before my seatbelt comes off.


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## oldman (Apr 11, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> When we check in at the departure section of the airport we are allocated a seat number. How is it possible to allocate  seats to more passengers than there are seats?
> 
> In this recent case, the correct number of passengers were boarded and seated but the airline wanted to prioritise four employees and were determined to bump four passengers from the plane. This is totally a totally unacceptable way to treat paying customers. Surely there are other ways to shuttle the staff from one airport to another.
> 
> By laying a hand on any of the passengers I believe the staff were guilty of assault because the passengers had every right to refuse to give up their seats. Whoever allowed it to get so out of hand needs to be held to account.




Dame: When boarding passes are issued, a seat number should appear on that pass. However, there are instances when the plane would have been booked full, perhaps as much as two weeks in advance of the departure date. During those two weeks prior to the flight departing, it is likely that there will be some passengers canceling for various reasons. This is why the airline will then allow another 5 or so passengers to book the same flight without a seat number being issued. If no one cancels, then those passengers holding a boarding pass without a seat number would probably be put on standby status. 

The plane that I flew, generally seated anywhere from 250-285 passengers, depending on which version of the aircraft we were scheduled to use. In this case, normally, we almost always had last minute cancellations and therefore; we would have allowed standbys to be seated. If, say I was flying a B-767-400 and it seated 280 passengers, the airline may book 290 passengers. If everyone who had a seat number showed up, then those passengers without a seat number would go on standby or be given a seat on the next flight. If United's next flight was full, the gate agent is "supposed" to find a seat for the passenger(s) on another airline. Truthfully, that seldom happens, but it does routinely happen. 

Also, if you read the fine print in the rules for passengers that are ticketed, which in the business is called "Contract of Carriage," you will read that the airline does have the right to remove passengers under certain situations and using the approved FAA protocol. One really needs to be a lawyer to understand all of the fine print. However, there is also a Bill of Rights for passengers that the airlines with the approval of the FAA has available. But, the bottom line here is that when you "click" on the button to accept the terms when purchasing your ticket, you have just agreed to the airlines's terms. This is not to say that a judge could rule that the language is ambiguous for a layman to understand and side with the plaintiff. 

I agree with the consensus here on this board. It is best to comply with the airlines request to give up the seat and fight it later. United is not the uncaring giant that it's made out to be. We, including myself, have all, been unhappy at times with the service that we receive from an airline, but I am willing to tolerate some inconvenience in order to get to my destination in a few hours, instead of driving for two days. And, just maybe, if you complain loud enough, you may get a bump to first class. It never hurts to ask. 

Sorry for the long post.


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## WhatInThe (Apr 11, 2017)

Falcon said:


> I would NEVER allow myself to be dragged off an airline !  I would walk off myself and take up the matter
> afterwards with the airline company and/or a lawyer.
> 
> Oh, and what's  this about the man being a "doctor" ?  What does THAT have to do with anything?
> ...



The practice of bumping stinks. But yes what does him being a doctor or even if he was an ex convict for that matter have to do with anything. He wasn't complying no matter the reason. Take it to court bring the issue out in public. That being said if he had calmly exited the plane with airline personnel and went to a lawyer and filed a suit hours later this still wouldn't be a news headline.


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## Iodine (Apr 11, 2017)

I haven't bought a plane ticket in 3 or 4 years but is there some fine print at the bottom saying they might be over booked and you'll have to give up your seat?  I know my husband has given up his seat a few times and he was always happy with the vouchers they gave him.  Once we were even able to give our daughter a free trip to Chicago to visit her dying friend.  I thought it was nice that he was able to give the free ticket away and wasn't the only one who could use it.

I think I would have taken the $800 and walked off the plane with my dignity intact.


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## Ruthanne (Apr 11, 2017)

Ken N Tx said:


> The man doing the actual dragging does not appear to be a police officer..(???)



What do you question?


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## Warrigal (Apr 11, 2017)

Twitter has been active deriving new slogans for United Airlines_
We'll beat any price and any customer.

If we cannot beat our competitors, we beat our customers.

We put the hospital in hospitality.

You carry on, we carry off.

Early boarding, late boarding, water boarding, all the same to us. _​
https://www.cnet.com/news/shoelaces-knot-untied-uc-berkeley-physics-dna/?google_editors_picks=true


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## Butterfly (Apr 11, 2017)

Falcon said:


> I would NEVER allow myself to be dragged off an airline !  I would walk off myself and take up the matter
> afterwards with the airline company and/or a lawyer.
> 
> Oh, and what's  this about the man being a "doctor" ?  What does THAT have to do with anything?
> ...



Falcon,  I agree.  I wouldn't make such a spectacle, either.  There is no point at all to that; once they decide you are going to get off the plane, you are going to get off that plane one way or another.  Throwing a tantrum just costs you your dignity and makes you look like an idiot.

Secondly, I seriously doubt that that guy was a doctor, whatever that difference that makes.  No doctor I know would make such a spectacle -- most of them are VERY concerned about dignity and public perception.  If he WERE a physician and were racing to some operating room to do a heart transplant or some such, I feel pretty confident that if he would have given that information to the airline, they would have chosen someone else.


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## Iodine (Apr 11, 2017)

I usually don't watch the TV program called TZM but it was on tonight so I watched it to see what they were saying about the doctor.  It seems he was in trouble (and I think they said he lost his license) a few years ago and had 90 some counts against him for trading drugs for sex.  There was something else he was in trouble for but I can't recall what it was.  I do have to admit, right or wrong this has colored my feelings even more.  

I just saw a cute meme from some other airline.  It said "We might lose your baggage but we won't beat the hell out of you."  I also got a big laugh out of all the slogans Warrigal shared.  layful:


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## JustBonee (Apr 12, 2017)

oldman said:


> Dame: When boarding passes are issued, a seat number should appear on that pass. However, there are instances when the plane would have been booked full, perhaps as much as two weeks in advance of the departure date. During those two weeks prior to the flight departing, it is likely that there will be some passengers canceling for various reasons. This is why the airline will then allow another 5 or so passengers to book the same flight without a seat number being issued. If no one cancels, then those passengers holding a boarding pass without a seat number would probably be put on standby status.
> 
> *The plane that I flew, generally seated anywhere from 250-285 passengers, depending on which version of the aircraft we were scheduled to use. In this case, normally, we almost always had last minute cancellations and therefore; we would have allowed standbys to be seated. If, say I was flying a B-767-400 and it seated 280 passengers, the airline may book 290 passengers. If everyone who had a seat number showed up, then those passengers without a seat number would go on standby or be given a seat on the next flight. If United's next flight was full, the gate agent is "supposed" to find a seat for the passenger(s) on another airline. Truthfully, that seldom happens, but it does routinely happen. *
> 
> ...





Just a question that comes to mind....   why is it so darn important to have every seat on a plane filled?  .... I recall flying on planes in the past that had empty seats.   I guess that is unheard of these days.  

So the airline  could possibly miss out on a few paying customers if they do that,  but aren't the problems faced with all the overbooking a lot more expensive in the long run.  ... bad press, lawyers, and everything else involved.


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## Don M. (Apr 12, 2017)

United Airlines...and its stockholders...is paying a huge price for this stupidity.  As of this morning, UA stock has lost almost 950 million dollars in value.  That should be a huge wake up call to these airlines, and their treatment of passengers.  Flying used to be a fairly pleasant way to travel, and the passenger amenities were great.  Anymore, the airlines are more concerned with shoving as many people as possible onboard, and about the Only thing they don't charge extra for is a cup of water.  Hopefully, this incident will remind the Corporate Big Whigs that the consumer/passenger deserves a bit more than a "seat"....and it would be better to have a few seats unoccupied than to "overbook".


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 12, 2017)

Last I heard they weren't even overbooked, they just had to fit 4 of their people on the plane for business reasons.  If that's the case, they should have figured it out before boarding instead of dragging a paying customer off the plane.  Poor management in the least.


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## aeron (Apr 12, 2017)

The number of passengers on a plane is often dictated by the amount of freight it's carrying. 

In the "good old days" it was not unknown for an extra passenger to be offered the jump seat on the flight deck but Islamic terrorism has ruled that out.

In the REALLY good old USSR days it was not unknown in the case of Aeroflot to be told to sit on the floor of an overcrowded plane with ones back to the bulkhead. Or the lavatory.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 12, 2017)

United Airlines definitely needs to get better at picking battles, a couple of weeks ago it was in the news for tossing two young girls off the plane for wearing leggings, a violation of an employee dress code and now for dragging a paying customer off of the plane.  Then you add on a recent computer glitch.  It seems like the company is running Oscar Muñoz instead of the other way around.


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## oldman (Apr 12, 2017)

Don M. said:


> United Airlines...and its stockholders...is paying a huge price for this stupidity.  As of this morning, UA stock has lost almost 950 million dollars in value.  That should be a huge wake up call to these airlines, and their treatment of passengers.  Flying used to be a fairly pleasant way to travel, and the passenger amenities were great.  Anymore, the airlines are more concerned with shoving as many people as possible on-board, and about the Only thing they don't charge extra for is a cup of water.  Hopefully, this incident will remind the Corporate Big Whigs that the consumer/passenger deserves a bit more than a "seat"....and it would be better to have a few seats unoccupied than to "overbook".



You would think so, wouldn't you? However, airlines do not have that type of mentality. It's all about the bottom line and having 100% occupancy, just like hotels yearn for. At United, we even have an additional charge for seats that give the passenger extra leg room. If you want to see an airline that charges for everything and I do mean everything. Just look at Allegiant. They even go so far as to charge for carry-on bags and to buy a drink, like a soda or coffee. 

However, all in all, today's airfares are still a good deal and when passengers take advantage of sales, it's even better.


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## oldman (Apr 12, 2017)

Don M. said:


> United Airlines...and its stockholders...is paying a huge price for this stupidity.  As of this morning, UA stock has lost almost 950 million dollars in value.  That should be a huge wake up call to these airlines, and their treatment of passengers.  Flying used to be a fairly pleasant way to travel, and the passenger amenities were great.  Anymore, the airlines are more concerned with shoving as many people as possible onboard, and about the Only thing they don't charge extra for is a cup of water.  Hopefully, this incident will remind the Corporate Big Whigs that the consumer/passenger deserves a bit more than a "seat"....and it would be better to have a few seats unoccupied than to "overbook".



The latest quite shows UAL down -.20 per share.


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## oldman (Apr 12, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> United Airlines definitely needs to get better at picking battles, a couple of weeks ago it was in the news for tossing two young girls off the plane for wearing leggings, a violation of an employee dress code and now for dragging a paying customer off of the plane.  Then you add on a recent computer glitch.  It seems like the company is running Oscar Muñoz instead of the other way around.



All that bad news and United is still number 1 or 2 in the business. Delta and United keep changing the number 1 and 2 spots. Looking at domestic sales only. It's tough to keep ahead of the foreign airlines due to all of the controls placed on domestic air carriers.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 12, 2017)

oldman said:


> All that bad news and United is still number 1 or 2 in the business. Delta and United keep changing the number 1 and 2 spots. Looking at domestic sales only. It's tough to keep ahead of the foreign airlines due to all of the controls placed on domestic air carriers.



So when you are number one you don't need to worry about the people that put you there.


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## JustBonee (Apr 12, 2017)

Watching the video of the dragging looked so barbaric. ...  I just couldn't believe that was happening in our country.  They really need to rethink their business practices,  and I'm betting they will do something different now.    That video had to strike a nerve..


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## Camper6 (Apr 12, 2017)

There must be some rich people in this world. They asked for volunteers with $400 pass ans accommodations. No takers so they upped it to $800 and no takers. I once gave a seat voluntarily 3 times and got $1200 and took my wife on a trip.


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## Sunny (Apr 12, 2017)

OK, here's another air travel horror story, which happened to me.

A few years ago, I was flying alone from CA to MD on Southwest Airlines. No nonstop flights available, one short layover at Midway Airport in Chicago. That was fine with me, we were supposed to arrive at Midway late in the afternoon, and be back home in MD by early evening.

Due to an emergency (a small fire) in the control tower at Midway, my first flight was not allowed to land, and we had to be rerouted to Milwaukee. We landed there, were told that the fire was out and it was OK to return to Midway, which we did.  But the delay meant that we got to Midway at 8 PM, too late for any connecting flights. No hotel rooms were available in the whole city of Chicago (or so they said at the airport!)  because it was a special weekend, with a Taste of Chicago event going on. Southwest refused to even try to find another airline. 

The airport set up cots, and that is where we spent the night, on canvas cots a few feet from each other in the main concourse. But wait, it gets worse. All the food concessions closed down at 8:00 so there was no place to get anything to eat.  And something was wrong with the sound system, so all night, every 20 minutes, a loud security announcement was blasted saying that if you were not an employee or there to get on a flight, you had to leave the airport by midnight!  This announcement went on all night long.  (Did they expect a terrorist to say, "Oh, OK then," and leave the airport because of that announcement?)

At 4 AM a guard came through, with the demeanor of a prison guard, an alarm was sounded and all of us who were trying to get some sleep (about 30 people) had to get up and go sit somewhere else, as they had to clear the concourse for early passengers who would be coming though soon. No food concessions were open yet, of course. So we were wandering around like zombies for an hour or so, until we finally found a concession selling some coffee.

Fortunately, I was able to get on a plane that left around 8 AM, so I landed in MD around 9:00.

So... how many things were wrong with this experience?


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## RadishRose (Apr 12, 2017)

I can't count that high!


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## JustBonee (Apr 12, 2017)

Oh Sunny!   ....   

So many nightmare stories are coming to light now.


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## Iodine (Apr 12, 2017)

Wow Sunny!  I have to wonder if you've flown since then.  I think that might have turned me off for good!  Did they at lest give all of you some vouchers?  I think they should have brought in pizza and beers for everyone over 21 that night.


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## Robusta (Apr 12, 2017)

Airlines are economic monsters.  I was flying out of Syracuse,it may have been United. We were all boarded the door had been close and the walk retracted.  We sat and sat, outside a ground crew and service truck were scurrying around. 30 minutes late we taxied towards the runway only to sit for a while longer. Finally we got going and took off.I had on the plane to tower headphones,there was a serious argument going on about speed and altitude.The tower wanted something but the pilot was resisting. The intercom was shut down mid discussion.

When we got airborn it was obvious that the plane was broken. Everytime a control surface moved in the right wing there was a hell of a grinding noise and the whole plane shuddered.


I was transferring in Detroit and the plane was going on to I think Phoenix.   Just before the plane started shaking it self to the ground in Detroit the announcement was made that all passengers would be getting off in Detroit and for through passenger to see the ticket agent immediately.

That freakin plane was going to kill us,yet some bean counter chose to endanger all of us and his employees, to keep from flying an empty plane to a mainantence facility.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2017)

Nothing, even remotely related, happened on the "Greyhound" bus I took when I traveled around the U.S.A.
Always had a front seat and thoroughly enjoyed the spectacular scenery.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2017)

Why do Americans put up with this practice?
Warrigal: Another good example of "stirring"?
But also an excellent example of "free speech"
in Australia!!!


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## oldman (Apr 13, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> So when you are number one you don't need to worry about the people that put you there.



Of course they do. Keep in mind that no one at United took this person off of the aircraft. Local law enforcement is always called and they do what they have to in order to forcibly remove a passenger. Local law enforcement has their own protocol for removing passengers. United did not say to go into the plane and drag that man out of here. They (police) make their own rules and once they have been called, all United employees can do is to standby and wait until they have completed the task of removing the passenger. I am sure that he was told that if he did not leave peaceably that he would be removed using whatever the police had to do.  If I was a passenger and 2 or 3 big guys walked up to me and told me to leave the plane, why wouldn't I comply and fight the good fight later. Heck, I'm 6'4" and I would still rather walk off the plane than to be dragged off. 

I am sure that when the gate agent called for local law enforcement to remove the passenger, they did not even consider that this person was going to take it to the extreme that he did. United will suffer the consequences, even though they had no part in removing the passenger, other than to call for police help.


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## Ruthanne (Apr 13, 2017)

Susie said:


> Nothing, even remotely related, happened on the "Greyhound" bus I took when I traveled around the U.S.A.
> Always had a front seat and thoroughly enjoyed the spectacular scenery.


We are a friendly bunch generally speaking!


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## oldman (Apr 13, 2017)

Robusta said:


> Airlines are economic monsters.  I was flying out of Syracuse,it may have been United. We were all boarded the door had been close and the walk retracted.  We sat and sat, outside a ground crew and service truck were scurrying around. 30 minutes late we taxied towards the runway only to sit for a while longer. Finally we got going and took off.I had on the plane to tower headphones,there was a serious argument going on about speed and altitude.The tower wanted something but the pilot was resisting. The intercom was shut down mid discussion.
> 
> When we got airborn it was obvious that the plane was broken. Every time a control surface moved in the right wing there was a hell of a grinding noise and the whole plane shuddered.
> 
> ...



I don't understand what you mean by "control surface." Are you talking about the flaps or ailerons? As for the ATC and the pilot arguing about speed and altitude, again, I am not sure what you are referring to. Are you talking about your flight or one that is already airborn? The flight that you are on is the same for all flights. Every airliner in the sky has filed a flight plan. Within that flight plan, the speed and altitude is already listed. If the pilot wants to change his altitude or speed once he is airborn, that is his prerogative to do do, so long as the ATC is acceptable to it. If an argument was because the pilot wanted to go faster than his flight plan called for, he must have ATC approval. Spacing is very important with so many planes in the air, especially around busy airports. 

In my 34 years of flying, I only ever had two conversations with ATC's that went south. On one flight, we were flying from out west and coming to the east coast non stop. We were at 36,000 ft. and the air was terrible. We had a lot of very uncomfortable turbulence. (At that time, I thought that we may have been caught in the jet stream.) I always tried to find good air, if there is any to be had. I asked the ATC if any other pilot had found smooth air in my area. He said there was some pretty smooth air at 39,000 ft. I asked if I could climb and he said not at that time, but I would be able to do so in just a few minutes. I waited five minutes and I asked him again and he came back to me being very belligerent. I told him to let me know and I wouldn't "bother" him again. I filed a complaint after I landed and did receive an apology, so it did end well.


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## oldman (Apr 13, 2017)

Sunny said:


> OK, here's another air travel horror story, which happened to me.
> 
> A few years ago, I was flying alone from CA to MD on Southwest Airlines. No nonstop flights available, one short layover at Midway Airport in Chicago. That was fine with me, we were supposed to arrive at Midway late in the afternoon, and be back home in MD by early evening.
> 
> ...



I have to admit, your experience is about as bad it can get. However, Southwest is a very good airline. Low fares and no charge for the first two checked bags. They do have a lot of non stop flights, but the only thing that I never understood with Southwest was their boarding process and why they never have offered food for sale. Some of SW pilots have told me that they also do not like their boarding process, but it works, so it's what they are going to keep doing. As for not being able to purchase food, I guess that they just don't want to bother with the mess because they have to turn their flights around very quickly after arriving for the next flight, which may be in as little as 20 minutes later. 

I travel for free on United. But, even though I have free travel, my trips are always on standby. If I can't get on the flight that I want, I do get the next available seat on the next flight going to the same destination. This is why when I want to, say go to Chicago, I always make certain there is another flight soon after the one that I had originally wanted to be on. I have only been bumped once, so I can't complain. 

BTW, I would have been very skeptical of the fact that no hotels had availability in any city the size of Chicago.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 13, 2017)

oldman said:


> Of course they do. Keep in mind that no one at United took this person off of the aircraft. Local law enforcement is always called and they do what they have to in order to forcibly remove a passenger. Local law enforcement has their own protocol for removing passengers. United did not say to go into the plane and drag that man out of here. They (police) make their own rules and once they have been called, all United employees can do is to standby and wait until they have completed the task of removing the passenger. I am sure that he was told that if he did not leave peaceably that he would be removed using whatever the police had to do.  If I was a passenger and 2 or 3 big guys walked up to me and told me to leave the plane, why wouldn't I comply and fight the good fight later. Heck, I'm 6'4" and I would still rather walk off the plane than to be dragged off.
> 
> I am sure that when the gate agent called for local law enforcement to remove the passenger, they did not even consider that this person was going to take it to the extreme that he did. United will suffer the consequences, even though they had no part in removing the passenger, other than to call for police help.



Your loyalty to United is admirable but you will never convince me that United was right and that this should be considered business as usual.

_Fly the friendly skies!_


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## Robusta (Apr 13, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> Your loyalty to United is admirable but you will never convince me that United was right and that this should be considered business as usual.
> 
> _Fly the friendly skies!_



Oldman, I will also laud your loyalty to the entity that provided your livelihood.

I am not a pilot, the only thing that I know about aircraft is that I avoid them like the plague.

I do take exception that you may be accusing me of lying.

Fact, I was seated on a plane that was delayed while a service truck on crew performed some function that does not normally happen.

We did go to the end of the Taxi way and were delayed again. Syracuse is not a busy airport so waiting for traffic probably was not the cause

Fact, I had on earphones, Fact They were tuned to the ATC  airplane  channel

Fact: ATC was saying on thing about heading speed and altitude plane was saying something else.

Fact: Discussion was contentious and heated

Fact: intercom was turned off abruptly and with no explanation

Fact: I wouldn't know an aileron from a steering wheel 

Fact: Some part of the plane having to do with the right wing was broken

Fact: Airliners do not grind shudder and shake while performing normal manuveurs

Fact: This one did

Fact: This plane was supposed to go on to a further destination

Fact: All passengers were deplaned in Detroit.

Fact: Thru passengers were instructed to report to the ticket agent.

Fact: While not a million mile flier,I have flown enough times to know that the occurrences on this particular flight were  not normal and routine.
Fact:  While I do not consider myself a genius, I am smart enough mechanically inclined enough, and possess enough life experience to know when a machine, no matter how complicated, displays shuddering, the sound of metal grinding on metal, and violent vibration, something is wrong.


Without knowing me and with out you being on this particular flight, how dare you cast aspersions on my narrative.


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## Sunny (Apr 13, 2017)

No vouchers, not even an apology from anyone. And yes, I have flown since then, and nothing like that ever happened. I try to avoid connecting flights at Midway, and in general always try to find a nonstop whenever possible.


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## oldman (Apr 13, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> Your loyalty to United is admirable but you will never convince me that United was right and that this should be considered business as usual.
> 
> _Fly the friendly skies!_



OK, but please keep in mind what I wrote previously, United's gate agent calls security. They (security) are not employed by United, but are usually local law enforcement, including State Police or Highway Patrol. Those people have their own protocol as to how they should remove a passenger that has been requested to leave the plane, but refuses to do so. I am sure that if that person that was removed had been proven to be a terrorist, no one would have objected at all as to what type of treatment he/she had received. If someone is to be removed and they fail to comply, the police are not going to walk away. So, what are their options? Should they attempt to bribe them with candy? Of course, I am being facetious, but I would imagine that he was offered a travel voucher good towards a future United flight, plus a seat on the next flight to his/her destination. It would be to United's credit if they would have tried to settle the matter peacefully.

Each of us are responsible for our actions. If we choose to buck the system or fail to comply with a police officer's demand, only bad things will happen. Like the old saying goes, "When we choose our actions, we also choose our consequences." (Author unknown.) It's  not a matter of loyalty, although I am because United has always done right by me (for the most part), but it's about doing what's right. I am not saying this person should not stand by his/her convictions, but there are times when it pays to capitulate and take the high road. I would rather walk off the plane, rather then be drug down the aisle. I can take care of the matter later and still have all of my own teeth. Like many others on this board, I have seen the police in action. They do not hesitate to bring matters to an end very quickly. 

BTW, I have really enjoyed debating this issue at an adult level. This thread has restored my faith in humanity to be able to discuss and debate issues without making things personal. I have appreciated all of the thought-out posts and staying with the issue.

 Thanks to all of the posters here on this thread.


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## oldman (Apr 13, 2017)

*"Without knowing me and with out you being on this particular flight, how dare you cast aspersions on my narrative."

*That wasn't my intent at all. I was just very confused about your post and could not comment on what the problems with the aircraft may have been. I try to educate people about airplanes and how the airline industry works. Most people appreciate the information that I send out. I have found out over the years that when people understand how we in the airline business operate and how planes operate, they feel more comfortable when flying. 

The airline business is not a perfect model, but we try to make the best with what we are given. For me, keeping my passengers safe was always priority number one. After that came comfort. When pilots speak to passengers slow and calm over the intercom during trying times, such as rough turbulence or some noise that is unusual, people become calmer. Think back when you heard that unfamiliar noise (grinding) and I would have come over the intercom and spoke in a rushed voice and would have said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am sorry for the noise that you are hearing. Something is amiss and I have no idea what it is. I will be back with you later, if I figure it out. In the meantime, please pray for our safety." Now, how would that have gone down?

I apologize for you taking my post personal.


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## RadishRose (Apr 13, 2017)

IMO, United was wrong, wrong, wrong.  4 staff needed seats,  3 got them it was down to one. They should have put that one staff member on another flight or upped the prize.

On the other hand, the passenger should have walked off the plane and seen his attorney later. That he laid there, quite stupidly, allowing himself to be dragged by the staff and police tells me he was already building his law suit from the very beginning.


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## Warrigal (Apr 13, 2017)

There will certainly be a lawsuit because his injuries were substantial.


> David Dao, the passenger forcibly removed from a United Airlines flight in an incident that sparked public outcry, suffered severe injuries, Dao’s lawyer Demetrio said during a press conference Thursday.
> 
> Demetrio said the 69-year-old man lost two front teeth, broke his nose, and suffered a concussion as a result of being dragged off a plane by police officers. Dao will allegedly need reconstructive surgery for his injuries.
> 
> ...



This is some of what his attorney had to say recently. 



> Thomas Demetrio, attorney for Dr. David Dao, the United Airlines passenger forcibly removed from a flight Sunday, has laid out his case against the airline.
> At a news conference in Chicago, Demetrio accused United, and airlines generally, of "bullying" their customers. But he said the case of his client, the subject of a video that by now may have been viewed by everyone in the world, goes beyond the pale.
> 
> Demetrio told assembled media representatives that the case is a simple one. He said the law requires that when any individual is removed from a commercial aircraft, it must be done so without "excessive force."
> ...


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## Iodine (Apr 13, 2017)

I heard on the news tonight that one of the 3 people to get off the plane was this man's wife.  So I guess he was going to leave her there and go off without her.  If I got off a plane for $800 and my husband didn't I'd be quite angry at him.  That's $1600 they could have had for waiting a few hours.

I agree with everything Radish Rose said in Post #50.

And so far all the medical reports I've heard about are coming from this man's attorney.  I am looking forward to a medical report from a licensed doctor.


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## Knight (Apr 13, 2017)

The cost of this to United Airlines will exceed anything the airline could have imagined when they asked for and received the authorities that removed that passenger. 

The silver lining is that other airlines got a free lesson on how things can go horribly wrong when protocols are used. 


Like oldman pointed out if this man was a terrorist and was forcibly removed the police following proto call would be hero's. The reason makes all the difference. I have to admit I'm not a fan of anyone not following instructions given by police officers. His refusal to de board  because he was going to see patients is lost in all this.  I hope the patients that the 69 yr. old doctor had to see the next day saw a doctor to attend to whatever their needs were.


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## JustBonee (Apr 14, 2017)

It's really been a rough week for United ... now this today:

_The same day a passenger was infamously dragged off a United plane in Chicago, a man on a United flight from Houston to Calgary was allegedly stung by a scorpion. The venomous creature fell from an overhead bin and landed on Richard Bell's hair as he was eating lunch Sunday in his business class seat, according to his wife Linda. "My husband felt something in his hair. He grabbed it out of his hair and it fell onto his dinner table. As he was grabbing it by the tail it stung him," she told CNN. She said her husband shooed the scorpion off his tray and it landed in the aisle, catching the attention of a nearby passenger who cried, "Oh my god, that's a scorpion."It's not clear how the scorpion got on the plane. The airplane had flown to Houston earlier in the day from Costa Rica, according to FlightAware, a flight-tracking platform.
_
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/13/health/scorpion-united-airlines-flight-trnd/index.html


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## RadishRose (Apr 14, 2017)

My goodness, it reminds me of that movie "Snakes on a Plane" !  (which I did not see)


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## oldman (Apr 14, 2017)

Last evening, a friend of mine who lives in Chicago and still works at United called me and of course, we spoke about the incident now before us. I had no idea that United had offered anyone wishing to give up their seat an $800.00 voucher and a paid hotel room, not to exceed $200.00, making it a $1000.00 payout. That's enough moola to pay for two r/t tickets to anywhere in the continental U.S. Not a bad offering. 

Also, let's be clear, I never said that United should not share the blame for this incident. Normally, these issues are settled out of court. The jury will probably award him a lot of money, but he will share in the blame, which will be something like: Passenger X =10%, United 30% and the police department 60%. The police department, or airport security should share in most of the blame because it was their people that did the deed. United did not request that the man be dragged off of the plane. But, this is all conjecture on my part and we will most likely never know the outcome because it will also be likely to be settled out of court with a gag order being placed on the defendants and plaintiffs. Normally, that's how this type of thing goes down. 

United does carry a hefty liability policy, but here again, insurance companies decide whether to pay off or not on claims of this type. If they feel that the company knowingly did something that caused this incident to happen, they may try to negate the claim, or reduce their portion of the payout.  It has happened before. I also believe that whatever the size of the jury award will be, the defendants will appeal the jury's decision, in order to have the payout be a lesser amount. Either way, United shareholders will see their holdings being lowered. 

United definitely needs to change their policy. It's my guess that the crew had to get to their destination (Louisville) to take charge of a flight that had a plane waiting for them, but no crew. I have also been in that situation, but no one ever got kicked off of their flight. If I had to get to, say for instance; Chicago, I would often fly in the cockpit's jump seat (if the plane was full) and is the most uncomfortable seat on the plane. This was a crew of four, I believe that needed to get to their destination. 

United's policy for boarding passengers, as it stands now, was not followed, but that was never printed in the papers, or at least not that I have read it wasn't. In actuality, the Gate Agent messed up. If the plane being boarded seats 130 passengers, the GA should know how many passengers will be boarding from the number of passengers that have checked-in. Of course, there are always late check-ins, but even still, no standbys should be boarded until ten minutes before the departure time. If the plane is due to depart at 5:00 p.m., the GA is permitted to release any remaining open seats, whether ticketed or not, which would include standbys. If someone gets to the gate at 4:55 and has a seat number and their seat was filled by a standby passenger, too bad, they are locked out, unless there is still remaining seats. The main cabin door is supposed to be closed at departure time, but I know of at least two airlines that close their door at 10 minutes before departure time to prevent, in part, this type of incident from happening. Once the cabin door has been secured, it does not get opened, unless there is a maintenance problem, or a real emergency. I remember on one flight that I was flying, we had actually been pushed back from the gate and had to return to the gate to pick-up a donor organ. Now, that's a real emergency and I was happy to do so. However, here again, we get another passenger because the donor organ does not go without a chaperone. So, if the plane would have been full, we would have been faced with a similar situation. I really doubt if we would have had a problem getting a passenger off the plane, if need be. Heck, with the reward for a passenger giving up their seat, I am sure we would have had a few takers. 

The last thing to consider is, "Did the crew get to the gate late?" If they did, then everything that I wrote above goes out the window, but I doubt that this happened. The crew will be seated and United or any other airline will make an offer that should attract some takers. I also read that the doctor is claiming racial profiling because he is Chinese. Is that correct? If so, then that part of the suit will be tossed out of the suit because it fails to meet its merits. IOW, look around the cabin, I am sure that there may have been people from all different ethnics.

I had read on this board at one time that one of our posters was a former Flight Attendant. If so, I was hoping that she/he would have commented on this. I would like to know how other airlines have handled this type of issue and also what their boarding procedure is. One thing that does bug me is that foreign airlines seldom make the papers. It has always seemed to me that they have their act together more than we do here in the U.S. I have flown on Singapore Airlines and I must admit, I was treated like royalty. Same for British Airways and also Qantas.    

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


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## Butterfly (Apr 14, 2017)

IMHO, the passenger is largely to blame for this incident escalating to where it did.  I can't think of anyone I know (and I know my share of crabby, difficult people, having worked for attorneys for years) who would have pushed it to this point.  I am sure this person was warned that if he did not leave the aircraft peaceably he would be removed by force, and still he basically forced them to do so.  It's stupid to allow yourself to be dragged kicking and screaming off an aircraft when you could have just gotten off and been $1,000 richer.


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## RadishRose (Apr 14, 2017)

I think he decided to gamble the quick easy money for the long term payoff he thinks he'll get in a lawsuit. Except for taking a stand (or a sit) on what he feels is unfair, I can see no other reason.


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## Knight (Apr 14, 2017)

Is it possible that there is another agenda in all of this?  

Really is it a story about a man that refused to deplane or the ongoing possibility that overbooking will cease to be a fact that airlines now have as a business practice?  Not much doubt the lawyer has prepped the family and the man really well about how to boost the pain & suffering. The more they can get the more he gets, it's the American way. 

I'm not saying he wasn't injured or that he didn't have pain but the extent if presented right has dollar value in a lawsuit. 

Meanwhile look at the extent of the coverage of one man that refused to deplane has gotten and the outrage over the airlines ability to over book flights. Two stories in one with what seems to me to be a condemnation of the airlines ability to over book as the real target.


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## oldman (Apr 14, 2017)

Knight said:


> Is it possible that there is another agenda in all of this?
> 
> Really is it a story about a man that refused to deplane or the ongoing possibility that overbooking will cease to be a fact that airlines now have as a business practice?  Not much doubt the lawyer has prepped the family and the man really well about how to boost the pain & suffering. The more they can get the more he gets, it's the American way.
> 
> ...



This practice has been going on since the dark ages. It is unfortunate when it happens because it means that someone is going to be late getting to where they want to go. However, in reality, here we have a plane sitting in Louisville with no crew. If it's one of the smaller planes, like a B-737 that seats about 130-140 passengers and if it is booked full, why would an airline want 130-140 people to miss their flight when one person can make all the difference? United is short on help at the moment, but is trying to correct it by hiring and training more staff, but all that takes time and pilots are not easy to come by. Many new pilots coming into the industry are wanting to fly freight because it pays very well due to the size of the aircraft. Many of those freight carriers fly old DC 10's and B-747's. I was tempted to fly for FedEx years ago, but just couldn't see myself leaving United. I love to work with people. There is nothing like watching the smiling faces on the little kids that are taking their first plane ride. Heck, we even had an in-flight delivery one time years back. It was a little girl and thankfully, we did have a doctor on-board. What a thrill. I have always wondered what the birth certificate had on it as the place of birth.  

I don't believe there is an easy solution. I really have trouble believing that someone, just one more person would pass up an $800.00 travel voucher that would take him or her and their partner to any destination in the continental U.S. for free and a very nice hotel room for the night and in this case since it was in Chicago, I would guess that it would be the airport Hilton. This is the hotel that United uses for their crews when staying overnight. I know the person would have to have the free time to be able to work it in, but just one more person?


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## dpwspringer (Apr 15, 2017)

oldman said:


> I don't believe there is an easy solution. I really have trouble believing that someone, just one more person would pass up an $800.00 travel voucher that would take him or her and their partner to any destination in the continental U.S. for free and a very nice hotel room for the night and in this case since it was in Chicago, I would guess that it would be the airport Hilton. This is the hotel that United uses for their crews when staying overnight. I know the person would have to have the free time to be able to work it in, but just one more person?


You have to figure they asked for volunteers and didn't get one... even when it was apparent the "designated volunteer" wasn't going to go willingly. At that point the airline had a decision to make and they decided to go the rough way instead of sweeting the pot to try and get a willing volunteer where everyone left with a positive experience. There really isn't any way to get around that. The decision to be a bad azz about it was on them... IMO. Forcible removing a paying passenger who has been seated and done nothing wrong isn't going to play well. And refusing to accept being a "designated volunteer" as being doing something wrong is going to be a tough sell.


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## Rainee (Apr 15, 2017)

Sunny that is exactly what happened to my daughter and I, few  years ago when we were flying to Dallas then to Pensacola.. for some reason the plane was over booked too and no flights till the morning so we had to stay in the air port lounge all night with no refreshments places open they were all closed down.. bit cold and 
only our bottle of water .. we were not compensated at all and got a flight out the next morning 8 am to Fort Worth plane wasn`t going to Pensacola for some reason 
so our friends had to drive from Pensacola to Fort Worth to pick us up . that was a daunting experience .. scary a bit as not many around in the airport over night just a policeman on one of those 2 wheel things that they ride around from concourse to concourse .. he was lovely and took us to a comfy lounge to sit while we wait but apologised there was no coffee or tea machines around that is what these airlines need .. that was our experience .. we had already come from Sydney to LA then another flight to Dallas so tired and all .. but amazing never slept a wink lol ..
Sorry to go off thread too but that was so sad for that fellow being taken off like that and after what a shady past he had it would have been better for him just to co-operate and collect some cash too and no body would know what his past was ... bet he was sorry he resisted like that should have just did what they wanted ..


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## Sunny (Apr 15, 2017)

Butterfly, he may just be a chronic curmudgeon or an egotist who is not in the habit of compromising or accommodating the needs of other people. And I think the fact that he is a doctor is irrelevant. He was not needed for an immediate medical emergency, he was just expected to see patients the next day. Well, big deal!  A lot of the other passengers may have had equally (or greater) pressing reasons for not getting off that flight. 

None of this, of course, excuses what United did. They acted like a bunch of goons in the Mafia, instead of like airline professionals. They should be sued.


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## Linda W. (Apr 15, 2017)

It wasn't even overbooking. All were seated and then for whatever reason they decided to fly one of their crews on that flight. Not one person on that plane would agree to voluntarily be bumped no matter what they offered. They wanted four seats and not one person agreed. So four were removed involuntarily. He stood up for his rights as a human being with a reservation and a seat number. I feel bad for his injuries. They basically sent thug cops in there who obviously like to brutalize people. This man was 69 and there is no possible excuse for this. If they can't treat their paying customers like human beings, they should be out of business. I know I would never fly on this airline no matter what.


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## Knight (Apr 15, 2017)

dpwspringer said:


> You have to figure they asked for volunteers and didn't get one... even when it was apparent the "designated volunteer" wasn't going to go willingly. At that point the airline had a decision to make and they decided to go the rough way instead of sweeting the pot to try and get a willing volunteer where everyone left with a positive experience. There really isn't any way to get around that. The decision to be a bad azz about it was on them... IMO. Forcible removing a paying passenger who has been seated and done nothing wrong isn't going to play well. And refusing to accept being a "designated volunteer" as being doing something wrong is going to be a tough sell.



Quit a leap from following protocol of asking police to intervene to going the rough way. 3 out of 4 left. The 4th. decided obeying the police was not in his thinking mode. 

Oldman can probably supply the incidence rate for overbooking and the amount of times this kind of incident escalated to the point it did. Overbooking not unusual this kind of incident NOT common IMO it is why all the attention. 

For those flying what do you think will happen to airfares if government enacts a law to prevent overbooking?


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## Butterfly (Apr 15, 2017)

Knight said:


> Quit a leap from following protocol of asking police to intervene to going the rough way. 3 out of 4 left. The 4th. decided obeying the police was not in his thinking mode.
> 
> Oldman can probably supply the incidence rate for overbooking and the amount of times this kind of incident escalated to the point it did. Overbooking not unusual this kind of incident NOT common IMO it is why all the attention.
> 
> For those flying what do you think will happen to airfares if government enacts a law to prevent overbooking?



Prices will go up, of course.


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## Butterfly (Apr 15, 2017)

Does anybody know what happens if you have a ticket that lets you change to another flight without penalty and you fail to show up for the flight booked?  Can you get your money back?


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## oldman (Apr 16, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Does anybody know what happens if you have a ticket that lets you change to another flight without penalty and you fail to show up for the flight booked?  Can you get your money back?



I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but in any case, airlines despise giving money back, although in some instances, if a passenger purchases the correct ticket class, refunds are given.


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## Sunny (Apr 16, 2017)

Southwest usually gives full refunds, for cancellations for any reason, and I think, even after failure to show up.


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## GeriGerry (Apr 16, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I got a real kick out of Jimmy Kimmel's take on this awful event and his version of a United Airlines commercial.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8HdeHtOJs

Oh my gosh, it is so funny.


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## Camper6 (Apr 16, 2017)

Must be a lot of rich people on that flight to pass up $800.


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## AprilT (Apr 16, 2017)

GeriGerry said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y8HdeHtOJs
> 
> Oh my gosh, it is so funny.




Yes, that's one of my favs.






These memes are quite funny


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2017)

Early in this thread I stated that passengers being bumped was unusual in Australia.

I was wrong. Hubby tells me that he was once asked to leave a plane after being seated and he caught a glimpse of the person taking his place. It was a well known politician.

This article reveals that the practice of overbooking is commonplace in Australia and outlines some examples of compensation. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-...what-rights-australia-united-airlines/8433170


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## Butterfly (Apr 16, 2017)

oldman said:


> I am not exactly sure what you are asking, but in any case, airlines despise giving money back, although in some instances, if a passenger purchases the correct ticket class, refunds are given.



What I was wondering is that if the airline loses money on no-shows.  Back when I used to fly stand-by a lot (military dependent), if a seat opened up it was usually because of a no-show.  I never had to wait very long for a seat.  That was back in the 70s, though and things have changed a lot, sadly.  Flying was a fun experience then, instead of a headache like it is now.I know that's not the airlines' fault, but the fault of the state of the world now with terrorists and bombs, but the fun has pretty much gone out of it.  Last time I flew, it was about as much fun as a root canal.


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## aeron (Apr 17, 2017)

In view of the risk of Islamic terrorism and aircraft being prime targets IMO the actions taken were entirely appropriate.  The overbooked story to him could quite possibly have been a way to get him off with least fuse.

He was requested to disembark. He refused. He was made to disembark and resisted. He was removed using reasonable force in that he was not shot on the spot which would not have been unreasonable given that he could have been carrying a device of some sort on a crowded aircraft.


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## Knight (Apr 17, 2017)

aeron said:


> In view of the risk of Islamic terrorism and aircraft being prime targets IMO the actions taken were entirely appropriate.  The overbooked story to him could quite possibly have been a way to get him off with least fuse.
> 
> He was requested to disembark. He refused. He was made to disembark and resisted. He was removed using reasonable force in that he was not shot on the spot which would not have been unreasonable given that he could have been carrying a device of some sort on a crowded aircraft.


Unfortunately that is the kind of time we are living in, no fly lists are not  fail proof. Bottom line confrontation with police doing their job usually doesn't well, except in this case since a lawsuit will probably net him major bucks. 

That brings up a whole other area. At age 69 how many years of earning against potential lawsuit win is fair compensation for his injuries? 

Punitive is supposed to remedy what took place. How likely is it that this exact same scenario will happen again?


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## aeron (Apr 17, 2017)

IMO he should be prosecuted for endangering an aircraft for starters. His conduct was disgusting.


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## Sunny (Apr 17, 2017)

And now, United has pulled another public relations goof!  Did anyone else see that story about the couple flying to their wedding who were thrown off a United flight because when they discovered a passenger sleeping across their seats, they moved up to vacant seats in a more expensive part of the airplane?

It was going to be a destination wedding in Costa Rica. (They made it after all, on a different flight.)  The bride's father remarked that they were worried about problems coming up in Costa Rica. They never expected the problems to begin in Houston!


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## aeron (Apr 17, 2017)

The full story shows a slightly different picture.  They tried to give themselves an upgrade and it was for that they were required to get off.  Quite right too.


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## RadishRose (Apr 17, 2017)

Sadly, in these times and with any country, every airline passenger must be where they are supposed to be, no changing, no guessing. 

I am surprised if they don't have to indicate somehow when they are in the toilet. If they don't, they should. Everyone on a plane should be accounted for at all times.


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## oldman (Apr 19, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> What I was wondering is that if the airline loses money on no-shows.  Back when I used to fly stand-by a lot (military dependent), if a seat opened up it was usually because of a no-show.  I never had to wait very long for a seat.  That was back in the 70s, though and things have changed a lot, sadly.  Flying was a fun experience then, instead of a headache like it is now.I know that's not the airlines' fault, but the fault of the state of the world now with terrorists and bombs, but the fun has pretty much gone out of it.  Last time I flew, it was about as much fun as a root canal.



I can only speak for United. SOP was to over-book x number of seats, depending on the size of the aircraft. If they over-book, the passenger receives a ticket without a seat number. Normally, if a passenger fails to show or cancel, they do not receive a refund or credit, unless their ticket class states otherwise. If a passenger calls and cancels and the flight is sold out, their seat is assigned to a passenger flying standby. 

Flying standby or being bumped is a passenger's nightmare. Because I fly standby, I am one of those passengers. Just because I am a former employee, I do not get any special treatment. My wife and I go to the airport and to the correct gate for our flight, check in as standbys and if we get seats, great and if we don't, we wait until the next flight. It's only fair that because we fly for free that we are treated like anyone else. I have no issue with this policy because I know and have agreed to follow the rules.


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## AprilT (Apr 19, 2017)

I once, unknowingly, got bumped into first class, I say unknowingly because it was my first time flying, so imagine my surprise when I came back home on regular class.  Still way back then, it was still a nice experience even in standard seating, but oh the roominess, treats and service in first class was so fun.


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## Butterfly (Apr 20, 2017)

I got bumped up to first class by TWA on the last leg of my flight when I flew home from Germany for my dad's funeral.


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## Butterfly (Apr 20, 2017)

oldman said:


> I can only speak for United. SOP was to over-book x number of seats, depending on the size of the aircraft. If they over-book, the passenger receives a ticket without a seat number. Normally, if a passenger fails to show or cancel, they do not receive a refund or credit, unless their ticket class states otherwise. If a passenger calls and cancels and the flight is sold out, their seat is assigned to a passenger flying standby.
> 
> Flying standby or being bumped is a passenger's nightmare. Because I fly standby, I am one of those passengers. Just because I am a former employee, I do not get any special treatment. My wife and I go to the airport and to the correct gate for our flight, check in as standbys and if we get seats, great and if we don't, we wait until the next flight. It's only fair that because we flight for free that we are treated like anyone else. I have no issue with this policy because I know and have agreed to follow the rules.



I never had any problem with the standby rules, either.  I am not in any way blaming the airlines for the hassle of flight in today's world.  Just nostalgic for those "olden days" when you just went in, got your boarding pass and walked up to the gate and got on the plane -- and your family could even walk up with you and wave goodbye. When I was a little kid, my dad flew a lot for work, and it was always fun to go up and meet him at the airport when he came home, and also watch the planes taking off and landing.  We could actually watch out the windows of the arrival place and see him get off the plane and come down the steps and walk across the tarmac.  I know none of that is possible in today's world.

The first time I flew I was about 16, flying alone, and trying to be very adult about the whole thing, even tho I was scared.  I about had a heart attack when I heard the landing gear come up with a big fat CLUNK! sound and one of the stewardesses saw I was terrified and took a few minutes to sit down with me and explain the sounds I might hear, and about turbulence, etc.  It was very kind of her and very reassuring.  I've long forgotten where I was going or why, but I've never forgotten that woman's kindness in taking the time to allay my fears and turn what might have been a very scary trip for me into a fun adventure.


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## oldman (Apr 20, 2017)

It's no secret that flying today with the many rules for passengers and regulations for flight crews that flying has become a bit of a chore. However, flying still has its' many rewards. Shorter travel time to long distance destinations is probably number one for the many that fly. At one time, flying was a lot of fun back when the airlines served food and showed movies, all included in the ticket price. Today, so many things on-board are now a la carte. OTOH, some of the foreign airlines still provide meals and free movies. United still feed their passengers on many international flights. United also feeds their flight crew on flights longer than three hours. Airline food has really improved since back in the day, but it still has room for improvement. 

Those of us that were and/or are still in the airline business know and hear a lot of complaints about screening methods being used at the airports. It's a good thing that the TSA does, but they could also improve their methods for screening at some of the airports. Full body scans and arbitrary spot checks of baggage coming through security are both very good steps that the TSA provides to screen out possible terrorist activities, although we all know how much of a hassle it can be at times, especially when a passenger has someone behind them trying to push them through the security belts.


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## Sunny (Apr 27, 2017)

I know this man is supposed to be a practicing physician, but I have to wonder: could it be that he is not all there?  Maybe early onset Alzheimer's? Though I guess in that case, his wife would have said something, instead of just leaving him on the plane.

But somehow, just stubbornly refusing to get off the plane and allowing himself to be physically dragged sounds somehow out of whack.


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## Don M. (Apr 27, 2017)

As more details about this incident become available, it seems that the largest blame should be placed on this passenger.  Sure, the airlines should be held accountable for their practice of overbooking, and creating problems for passengers, and the manner in which this passenger was forcefully removed appears to be excessive...this whole incident continues to fall back to basically involving a passenger who become unmanageable and abusive....IMO.


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## tnthomas (Apr 27, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I got bumped up to first class by TWA on the last leg of my flight when I flew home from Germany for my dad's funeral.



Last time we visited family back east, go bumped to first class on the return flight.   Yes, there is a God in heaven!

The "down side" is, now with _that _bit of luck, I'll have virtually _no chance_ of hitting the lottery.     Not that I really ever did have a chance, anyway.   :shrug:


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## Sunny (Apr 29, 2017)

So now, a United spokesman has announced that they have changed their rules about bumping passengers, to make flying with them a much more positive experience. And they hope that all
the other airlines will make similar changes, so that their passengers can also have an equally positive experience.

This guy should get an award as spin doctor of the year!


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## OneEyedDiva (May 7, 2017)

Knight said:


> Unfortunately that is the kind of time we are living in, no fly lists are not  fail proof. Bottom line confrontation with police doing their job usually doesn't well, except in this case since a lawsuit will probably net him major bucks.
> 
> That brings up a whole other area. At age 69 how many years of earning against potential lawsuit win is fair compensation for his injuries?
> 
> Punitive is supposed to remedy what took place. How likely is it that this exact same scenario will happen again?



I think the way that man was treated was disgusting, especially being a senior citizen and he certainly is not a man of stature. I'm pretty sure there was a better way they could have handled that. The fact that he didn't want to leave the plane did not give them the right to cause him bodily harm the way they did. Being a doctor, perhaps he had something very important that he had to return on time to take care of. In two faux pas, the airline first spoke out against the passenger, then I read that a false report was given about the doctor when in fact it was someone else. This solidifies my hesitancy about flying. I've been on a "personal boycott" of airlines for several years now. And as far as him getting paid, I read a couple of days ago that United has settled with him for an undisclosed amount. The good (hopefully) that came out of this is that the airlines are changing their bumping policies. Obviously people book flights because they need to be somewhere on time. Overbooking out of greed causes problems for passengers when they can't take their expected flights.


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## Falcon (May 7, 2017)

I agree with Don and Sunny.  I wouldn't want to be in the same airplane as this creep, spoiling the entire flight with his attention getting
activities. All airlines should be on the lookout for this show off. I don't buy the excuse that he had to return for "something important
to "take care of".  He should be charged with interfering with airline activities.

I'm a commercial pilot and I don't want anybody like him on MY airplane.


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## Butterfly (May 7, 2017)

Falcon said:


> I agree with Don and Sunny.  I wouldn't want to be in the same airplane as this creep, spoiling the entire flight with his attention getting
> activities. All airlines should be on the lookout for this show off. I don't buy the excuse that he had to return for "something important
> to "take care of".  He should be charged with interfering with airline activities.
> 
> I'm a commercial pilot and I don't want anybody like him on MY airplane.



I agree with you and Don and Sunny.  The whole spectacle was his own fault.  And the whole "I'm a doctor" thing doesn't give him any more right to be on that plane than anybody else.


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## oldman (May 9, 2017)

*"Overbooking out of greed causes problems for passengers when they can't take their expected flights."

*United, like other airlines, do not overbook because of greed. Every seat on the airplane has a value. For example; Let's say the plane going from Washington to Denver seats 200 passengers. United will sell 'X' amount of seats at a discounted price and 'X' amount of seats at a standard price, not including the higher class of seats, like first or business class. United, like all other carriers, know that there will be cancellations, so they over book the plane by say five seats. So, now they have sold 205 seats for an airplane that seats 200. If everyone does happen to show up, United will have to ask for anyone that may wish to give up their seat in exchange for a travel voucher that may be used for a later flight of their choice, plus a seat on the next plane going to their destination. 

It's all about filling all the seats and having 100% utilization of the aircraft. I don't know of any airline company that is OK with flying seats that are empty. Empty seats are a loss of revenue for the company. As long as the seats can be filled, airlines can hold their price on ticket charges. 

I flew a Boeing 767 for much of my career. Depending on which version of the 767 we were flying for our trip, the plane may seat from 180-350 passengers. Airlines figure costs different ways. Some will figure what it costs to fly each passenger per mile, while others may figure how much it costs to fly a certain size plane per hour. It costs thousands of dollars in fuel just to taxi the plane from the gate to the runway. Once the plane has reached the runway and we begin the takeoff roll, the pilot will fully throttle the engines, release the brakes and begin their 'roll' down the runway. Getting the plane into the air costs thousands of more dollars. It was once talked about to tow the plane to the runway in order to save on fuel and money, but that idea was met will all kinds of controversy, so it was put to rest. However, I think that someday we will see tugs towing planes out to the runway. 

This is why it is important to have as many passengers as possible on the plane. It all helps to reduce costs and as far as I know, most all businesses are trying to reduce their costs.


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## Warrigal (May 9, 2017)

Why not tell the last five people to book that they are on standby?


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## Warrigal (May 9, 2017)

Alternately, this could be a good way to let the airline know that their business practices are unacceptable.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-...joyce-cops-cream-pie-in-face-in-perth/8510156


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## oldman (May 18, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Why not tell the last five people to book that they are on standby?



Not a bad idea. In the future, if you purchase a ticket for a flight and you are not assigned a seat number, that very well may be because you are one of the "over-booked" passengers and you may be denied boarding if everyone that has been assigned a seat shows up for that particular flight. If you have a ticket without an assigned seat number, you should go to the airlines ticket counter ASAP upon your arrival at the airport and ask that you be given a seat number. In most cases, the gate agent will bump some other passenger out of his seat to oblige you. Like I wrote previously, if the plane seats 200 passengers and everyone of the 205 passengers booked show up, five people will not be getting on that particular plane. 

This type of action understandably really upsets those passengers that find themselves without a seat. I have seen people try to bargain with a passenger that has an assigned seat, so that they may get to their destination without having to wait on the next plane. If you have ever watched the movie, "Home Alone" and Kevin's mother is trying to trade a passenger for their ticket by offering them money, jewelry, etc., that part is mostly true. I have seen this happen more than once. 

I remember on one such occasion when we were really over-booked on a long flight from New York to LA and we had something like 15 passengers without a seat. The gate agents were telling the unassigned seat passengers that there just wasn't enough seats to be able to board everyone. Then, one of the passengers asked why the airline doesn't just pull a larger airplane out of the hangar, so that everyone could be accommodated. Sounds like a great idea, but I don't know of any airline that keeps spare planes at airports, so that they may be able to fulfill this type of need.  

I have always suggested to people that have asked me how they could make certain that they get boarded, if they do not have a seat number on their confirmation to report to the airlines's ticket counter immediately after getting inside the terminal and request that they be assigned a seat number. Without a seat number on your reservation itinerary, you're kind of left out in the cold. Events like this cause a massive headache for the gate agents, but the airlines don't give a hoot. They train their agents to deal with it and normally, it is handled without a lot if fuss. Gate Agents make only about $12-14.00 per hour to have to deal with some of their irate passengers, so in turn, this will also cause a lot of turnover at different airlines.


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## Camper6 (May 18, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Why not tell the last five people to book that they are on standby?



I would go for that if they cut my fare in half.


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## oldman (May 19, 2017)

I think that it was back in April when a passenger was removed from a Delta plane for ignoring a Flight Attendant's orders to remain seated as they were about to takeoff. It seems that the passenger had to use the lavatory. The plane had taxied out to the runway when the gentleman decided he needed to "go now." Of course, as is the norm these days, he is suing the airlines for his being humiliated in front of the other passengers. 

I think that the Delta rep told the press that had they allowed him to use the lavatory, they would have lost their spot in line for taking off. That's a pretty lame excuse, if you ask me, but it is true. The FAA mandates that "all" passengers must be in their seats and belted before the plane may depart. What so many people do not understand is that it costs an airline thousands of dollars in fuel to taxi out to the runway and then to either have to be sidelined on one of the taxiways while a person  uses the restroom or the plane returns to the gate, a lot of money is at stake. 

In cases like this, the Captain receives a call from the Purser and requests that a passenger be permitted to use the lav. Generally, I would either request that the passenger hold his/her water until we have hit 10,000 feet, which takes just a few minutes, or I would have the Purser escort the person to and from the lav. Once inside the lav, the person was told to stay "seated" until told to come out. That way, no rules are broken and everyone is happy. 

Sometimes, it's just a matter of using a little common sense or diplomacy.


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## Trade (May 19, 2017)

If I ever find myself in a similar position I am going to volunteer to give up my seat for $100,000 USD in unmarked 10's and 20's.

I'll even let them issue me a 1099 for it at the end of the year so that I can pay taxes on it, because I am a Patriot.


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## Elsie (May 22, 2017)

SeaBreeze said:


> From the story I heard it was the fault of the airline.  I guess when they found that the flight was overbooked they started to ask for volunteers to give up their spots on that plane, and they offered up to $800.  When they needed one more person off the plane, they randomly picked this poor guy.  I don't blame him for not wanting to leave the plane, he was a doctor with business to attend to and he had a regular ticket, it's not like he was just flying stand-by and knew he may not make that flight.  They should have done what they needed to, offer more money until they got one more volunteer.
> 
> I also heard that the seats were just for their airline employees to go to another airport where they had flights to work on.  Well, they should have just put one of their employees on another airline in a case like that IMO.  It would've been a lot cheaper for them in the long run.
> 
> I hope this man sues them for calling the cops and taking such drastic physical action, that's way out of line in my opinion.  I don't know what's going on with these airlines these days, but I'm glad I rarely have to fly anywhere.  Ideally, they wouldn't have allowed the man to board in the first place, dragging him off on the floor was outrageous.




I agree.  Though I do think the chosen passenger would have been better off if he'd managed to keep his cool.  Airlines that overbook are being unreasonable, unfair to all passengers...."Has the plane I'm on been overbooked?  If so, will  I be asked (demanded) to deplane?!"  The airline should find better solutions to preventing loss of profits.


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2017)

Another report of United Airlines and a disruptive passenger. This time he was clearly out of line but he was not dragged off the plane. All of the other passengers were deplaned and the flight was delayed by about 3 hours.

http://the-daily.buzz/a/man-in-dona...2&tse_id=INF_e91ce6303fe711e785b761b07d40d40a


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## oldman (May 24, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Another report of United Airlines and a disruptive passenger. This time he was clearly out of line but he was not dragged off the plane. All of the other passengers were deplaned and the flight was delayed by about 3 hours.
> 
> http://the-daily.buzz/a/man-in-dona...2&tse_id=INF_e91ce6303fe711e785b761b07d40d40a



So, this is what we have come to. It's like this particular passenger was playing a game of chicken. "Let's see you pull me off of this plane, so I can sue the crap out of you." Almost reminds me of "A Christmas Story" when Ralphy gets a "Dog Double Dare." How immature and childish people can be..

What passengers never take into consideration is the condition of the aircraft while all of this is going on. The pilots have the plane configured for departure when all of a sudden, they have to get out their checklist for shutting down the plane. Once the plane has been shut down, there is a minimum amount of time that the engines and electronics (avionics) have to remain cold before a restart may begin. This all takes time and costs the airline thousands of dollars. Who pays for all of this? The passenger, of course. The airlines are not going to eat a loss caused by an unruly passenger. This is not to mention the amount of work the pilots have to go through to put the plane back into a cold shutdown and then do a restart. It really does put the passengers at risk. I have seen engines flame-out during episodes like this. Once that happens, more than likely, the flight would be cancelled and then no one is going anywhere. 

Sometimes, I think we are our own worse enemy.


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## Butterfly (May 24, 2017)

What the heck ever happened to good manners and civility, anyway???  Many people don't seem to care at all about how their idiotic behavior in public affects others.  You're not on the plane to advance your political views; you're on that plane to get somewhere, so just sit down, be polite to others, and enjoy the ride.  GEEZ!


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## oldman (May 25, 2017)

It wasn't too many years ago that we were flying from New York to Los Angeles when I received a message from air traffic control that we were going to be held at the gate pending the arrival of two U.S. Marshalls that were escorting a well known prisoner back to LA. Originally, I had been advised that it would only be 5-10 minutes. Of course, I didn't believe that for a minute. After almost waiting 20 minutes, we were told to push back from the gate and hold before turning to go to the runway. The next thing that I saw happening was a couple of the baggage handlers pushing out an airstair, so the three men could board the plane without having to go through the terminal. 

Once boarded, the three men sat in the last row of the plane with the prisoner between them. Everything went well, until we reached the runway and I throttled up the engines when the prisoner started complaining very loudly that he was scared to death to fly and was also claustrophobic. The one Air Marshall gave the prisoner a pill and told him to take it and he would feel better in a few minutes, which he did. I have always wondered what the pill was that they gave him. One of the flight attendants told me that he slept almost the whole way to LA.


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