# Has PC gone too far... Take 2



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Nov 3, 2015)

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/index.html

"Stealing" Jim's thread title... A high school student in Illinois is "transgendering".  The student was born male, but is transgendering to live the rest of his/her life as a female.  The student is on hormone therapy to 'enhance' certain female attributes, but has not had surgery.  Hence, the student still has male "body parts below the waist".

The student has been allowed to participate in sports on the female teams.  The student has been allowed access to the girls' locker room.  The school put up curtains and required the student to shower/dress/undress behind those curtains.  The student sued, saying his/her civil rights were being violated by singling him/her out and requiring different conditions than expected of the other female athletes.  

The court ruled in his/her favor.  The school must remove the curtains and allow the transgender teen to openly shower/dress/undress with the rest of the team members in the girls' locker room.  

My thoughts...
1.)  Being allowed to participate in sports as the gender she is transitioning to indicates the willingness of the school to accommodate.  Is not moving forward with a civil suit to remove curtains bringing negative attention to the "cause" of those who wish to transgender?
2.)  If you had a daughter in the same school, participating in the same sports, would you still allow her to do so knowing someone with full male "equipment" was showering openly with her?
3.)  Do the youth of today see enough male/female nudity in movies and on television... and on their computers... that most will think nothing of showering with someone of opposite "equipment"?

If you were sitting on the court which adjudicated this civil filing, would you have voted to remove the curtains or leave them in place?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 3, 2015)

I would think that the girls have little to worry about from someone who considers herself to be a female..  I don't think "he" is interested in using that male equipment or ogle the girls do you?   Or do you consider the mere presence of a penis to be a threat?


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## Warrigal (Nov 3, 2015)

I would leave the curtains in place. 
Better still, I would provide curtains for all the girls to shower in privacy.


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## imp (Nov 3, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> I would leave the curtains in place.
> Better still, I would provide curtains for all the girls to shower in privacy.



Because you view things, as I do, in an "old-fashioned" way. Perhaps as transgendering becomes a most commonplace circumstance, schools may be opened which enroll only transgendered students, of both sexes. That way, the students not comfortable with the concept, might be spared the hanging of curtains, skirting of issues, etc.   imp


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## QuickSilver (Nov 3, 2015)

Personally, I've never been in a locker room shower that didn't have curtains.


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## Warrigal (Nov 3, 2015)

What I have noticed when taking teens camping is that the girls do value privacy and they will hold shower curtains in place for their friends. 
I've never seen a girls' shower room without separate cubicles and either doors or curtains in place.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Nov 3, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> What I have noticed when taking teens camping is that the girls do value privacy and they will hold shower curtains in place for their friends.
> I've never seen a girls' shower room without separate cubicles and either doors or curtains in place.



'Tween you and me, I've never seen a girls' shower room!!  :>)

Edit:  Wasn't there a movie called "Porky's" that had some sorta shower room........ Why did we waste money going to see such flicks, anyway????


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## NancyNGA (Nov 3, 2015)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bruce Jenner, in his TV coming out show, at least imply (by carefully dodging the question) that his surgery did not change his ****** preference?


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Nov 3, 2015)

NancyNGA said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bruce Jenner, in his TV coming out show, at least imply (by carefully dodging the question) that his surgery did not change his ****** preference?


So this teenage boy who now is a girl, or is transgendering to become female, probably preferred girls while a boy and may still prefer girls... and is in the girls shower room with male equipment and...... I'm dizzy.  Why is something so simply now so complicated?????


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## QuickSilver (Nov 3, 2015)

So in essence... he is transgendering to become a Lesbian?   What a hoot...  wouldn't he have better luck if he kept his equipment?


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## NancyNGA (Nov 3, 2015)

I don't know.  His answer still leaves me scratching my head.  Not enough to replay it though.


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## imp (Nov 3, 2015)

These sorts of questions regarding "keeping of equipment", or "change surgery', and so on, were bound to become tantalizing fodder for many folks to contemplate.

Personally, I do not. As always stated, what an individual does to or for his or her body, should be of no consequence to anyone else. Goes for drugs, sex, piercing, transgendering. 

My stance on it, whether acceptable or not.   imp


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## tnthomas (Nov 3, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> If you were sitting on the court which adjudicated this civil filing, would you have voted to remove the curtains or leave them in place?



Transgender accommodations aside,  I am dead set against the proliferation of frivolous lawsuits.     I say dismiss the case and fine the plaintiff's counsel and hold him/her in Contempt of Court for abuse of the legal system.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Yes, nothing like a gang shower to provide opportunities for humiliation for those who don't measure up in some way.  Developing adolescents shouldn't be subjected to this situation in school.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Yes, nothing like a gang shower to provide opportunities for humiliation for those who don't measure up in some way.  Developing adolescents shouldn't be subjected to this situation in school.



Females usually don't worry about the "measuring up" aspect..


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Hmm,  could you explain your thinking?


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## Warrigal (Nov 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Females usually don't worry about the "measuring up" aspect..



They do have figure issues though, usually related to fat.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Too fat, too skinny, too developed, not developed enough, which also applies to boys with some differences...


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

What I meant was that women are not as obsessed with their ****** organs the way men are.  Heck.. would it surprise you to know that many women have never even looked at theirs?


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Women may not be obsessed with their ****** organs but men are obsessed with all ****** organs...


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

That's a given Ralphy


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)




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## Davey Jones (Nov 4, 2015)

My granddaughter says at her high school (1,800 students)there are 4 known transgender that always sit together at lunch and are subject to all kinds of abuse. For their safety they should transfer to another high school and shut up about their "choices".
The schools administrators are just as bad trying to control this situation.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> My granddaughter says at her high school (1,800 students)there are 4 known transgender that always sit together at lunch and are subject to all kinds of abuse. For their safety they should transfer to another high school and shut up about their "choices".
> The schools administrators are just as bad trying to control this situation.




Seriously?   THEY should transfer????... How are these 4 students hurting anyone?  How's about the other students learning a little tolerance and good manners?


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## BobF (Nov 4, 2015)

My golly QuickSilver, that is just a school.   Do you expect teachers to really educate someone?


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 4, 2015)

It is hard to be different at any age, let alone adolescence.  Perhaps the support services, counselors, psychologists, nurses, could do some programs to enlighten the student body...


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Seriously?   THEY should transfer????... How are these 4 students hurting anyone?  How's about the other students learning a little tolerance and good manners?



I completely agree Quicksilver, why should they be booted out and told to shut up?  The other kids should be learning to get along, why should these children even have to be isolated by sitting alone.  School kids need to learn that everyone is not alike, and to treat them with respect and politeness.  Reflection on bad parenting if these school children are so abusive.


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## Misty (Nov 4, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> I would leave the curtains in place.
> Better still, I would provide curtains for all the girls to shower in privacy.



I agree with, Warrigal, girls deserve the right to privacy, regardless if the government takes over their rights to privacy, so transgenders with male genitalia can shower without curtains with teenage girl students. In my opinion, the government is definitely overstepping their boundaries.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

Misty said:


> I agree with, Warrigal, girls deserve the right to privacy, regardless if the government takes over their rights to privacy, so transgenders with male genitalia can shower without curtains with teenage girl students. In my opinion, the government is definitely overstepping their boundaries.



you seriously believe this?  Where has the "government" outlawed curtains in locker room showers?     A "court order" is NOT legislation.

It's not clear from the article... was the transgendered student the ONLY student that had a shower curtain..  If so.. then I can understand the lawsuit.  It would make more sense that the order would have been that EVERY shower stall have curtains.. and the EVERYONE showered behind a curtain...  I don't know of many females that wouldn't prefer it that way...  with or without a transgender present.


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## Misty (Nov 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> you seriously believe this?  Where has the "government" outlawed curtains in locker room showers?     A "court order" is NOT legislation.
> 
> It's not clear from the article... was the transgendered student the ONLY student that had a shower curtain..  If so.. then I can understand the lawsuit.  It would make more sense that the order would have been that EVERY shower stall have curtains.. and the EVERYONE showered behind a curtain...  I don't know of many females that wouldn't prefer it that way...  with or without a transgender present.



I said nothing in my post that government has outlawed or legislated no shower curtains in locker room showers. The subject discussed was a transgender student with male anatomy being allowed to shower with girl students with no restrictions. If the school does not go along with the recent decision, there can be administrative law proceedings, or a Justice Department court action, against the school.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 4, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> It is hard to be different at any age, let alone adolescence.  Perhaps the support services, counselors, psychologists, nurses, could do some programs to enlighten the student body...



Or maybe those wishing to undergo gender reassignment at ANY age should realize - or be flat-out told - that YES, they ARE different and they ARE going to have a tough time. 

If I get a pink mullet and a gold ring through my nose, I expect to have more than a few comments made and maybe even a few physical assaults. Why are these people any different? 

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - at least in THIS society. At least for now ... but it appears that that concept is always being fought and slowly being changed to accommodate everyone who is even slightly different.


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## Shirley (Nov 4, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-school-district-transgender-ruling/index.html
> 
> "Stealing" Jim's thread title... A high school student in Illinois is "transgendering".  The student was born male, but is transgendering to live the rest of his/her life as a female.  The student is on hormone therapy to 'enhance' certain female attributes, but has not had surgery.  Hence, the student still has male "body parts below the waist".
> 
> ...


 
*Quote " Genital surgery[edit]*

_Main article: Vaginoplasty_
When changing anatomical sex from male to female, the testicles are removed, and the skin of foreskin and penis is usually inverted, as a flap preserving blood and nerve supplies (a technique pioneered by Sir Harold Gillies in 1951), to form a fully sensitive vagina (vaginoplasty). A clitoris fully supplied with nerve endings (innervated) can be formed from part of the glans of the penis. If the patient has been circumcised (removal of the foreskin), or if the surgeon's technique uses more skin in the formation of the labia minora, the pubic hair follicles are removed from some of the scrotal tissue, which is then incorporated by the surgeon within the vagina. Other scrotal tissue forms the labia majora."

She should look like all the other girls after her transformation.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 4, 2015)

Shirley, that has all the appeal of watching open heart surgery.


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## Shirley (Nov 4, 2015)

I see in GOM's original post that this student has not had that surgery. So, biologically, he is still a male. I can't understand the reasoning in that.  I would think he would want to be all one or the other.  In any case, he should be kept separate from the girls until he can be considered a female.


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## Warrigal (Nov 4, 2015)

BobF said:


> My golly QuickSilver, that is just a school.   Do you expect teachers to really educate someone?



School isn't just about the three Rs. Respect for each other should be very high on the curriculum.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I see in GOM's original post that this student has not had that surgery. So, biologically, he is still a male. I can't understand the reasoning in that.  I would think he would want to be all one or the other.  In any case, he should be kept separate from the girls until he can be considered a female.



Because a penis is poisonous...  Just kidding..


But I think that there should be shower curtains for every one.. I've never seen a girls locker room that didn't have separate shower stalls with curtains..  Most girls don't even want to be naked in front of other girls either.


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## Warrigal (Nov 4, 2015)

One piece of information that is missing is how old are these girls. 
'Teen' covers a lot of territory and IMO it does make a difference.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 4, 2015)

I don't want to shower in front of other women...  I would if I had too... for whatever reason made it necessary although I cannot think of one....  But I wouldn't do it by choice..  Does any woman REALLY feel comfortable naked in front of others?


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## Butterfly (Nov 4, 2015)

They should have shower curtains for everyone.  Like QS, I've never been in a locker room that didn't have either curtains or doors, and I certainly think school locker rooms should have them.  I  think most girls that age (HS) are self-conscious about their bodies and I think most, if not all, girls would want privacy as they showered, and they should be allowed that privacy.  I would think the transgender person would want some privacy, too.


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## tnthomas (Nov 4, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I see in GOM's original post that this student has not had that surgery. So, biologically, he is  a male. I can't understand the reasoning in that.  I would think he would want to be all one or the other.  In any case, he should be kept separate from the girls until he can be considered a female.



At a county jail I used to work at, *no* individual that had external genitalia(as in penis) was going to get housed in a female unit.  Instead, *all *LGBT inmates were put in single cell units, segregated from the general population.   Referred to as "alternative lifestyle" inmates.


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## imp (Nov 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I don't want to shower in front of other women...  I would if I had too... for whatever reason made it necessary although I cannot think of one....  But I wouldn't do it by choice..  Does any woman REALLY feel comfortable naked in front of others?



Did you shower with the other girls in high school? How was that done, if so? Almost all the folks I have asked from around the Chicago area revealed that, just as we had at Morton High in Cicero, the boys were required to shower before entering the swimming pool, and all phys. ed. swimming was done in the nude. Only guy there clothed was the Coach, who occasionally was known to strip down and jump in. The girls showered together, but wore swimwear in the pool. Needless to say, we always wondered what kind of decision-making policy was behind collective naked swimming. 'Course, we guys now and then tried to sneak in a look into the girls' showers, but getting caught was a high-risk proposition!   imp


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## imp (Nov 4, 2015)

*The P-C  1980s*

Back then, it had become improper to speak of an individual's physical maladies as other than "physically challenged". One news announcer on morning T-V took that to it's funny conclusion: "We have a "physically-challenged" car blocking the outside lane on I-10 and 51st. Ave." The accidents were "operationally-challenged".


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## AprilT (Nov 4, 2015)

Every girls shower room I've ever entered had shower curtains or doors of sorts, so, this no shower curtain policy in general comes as a surprise to me.  Way back when many women tended to be more modest when it came to nudity in front of others, not so much the case today, but, I know even at general workout facilities there are curtains where the women shower.  Maybe these days the schools want to save pennies and no longer replace the old curtains.  I don't know.


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2015)

imp said:


> Did you shower with the other girls in high school? How was that done, if so? Almost all the folks I have asked from around the Chicago area revealed that, just as we had at Morton High in Cicero, the boys were required to shower before entering the swimming pool, and all phys. ed. swimming was done in the nude. Only guy there clothed was the Coach, who occasionally was known to strip down and jump in. The girls showered together, but wore swimwear in the pool. Needless to say, we always wondered what kind of decision-making policy was behind collective naked swimming. 'Course, we guys now and then tried to sneak in a look into the girls' showers, but getting caught was a high-risk proposition!   imp



At our school we had a gymnasium equipped with showers but the lessons were only 40 minutes long and the teachers gave us very little time for changing, so showers were dispensed with. For swimming sessions we had longer and were ferried to and from the pool by bus. We would hit the change rooms and change in the open space but we were very adept at keeping ourselves covered while we wriggled into our one piece togs. We didn't bother to shower before rushing out to the pool. Afterwards we would take a cold shower while still in our togs and then perform the change in reverse, using the towel for cover. We would no more have stood naked in front of our friends than we would have flown to the moon.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 5, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> School isn't just about the three Rs. Respect for each other should be very high on the curriculum.



Of course, there is what _should_ be and what _is_ ...


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Of course, there is what _should_ be and what _is_ ...



It is sometimes a battle but the battle is not optional. It must be fought and won.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 5, 2015)

My high school in the early '70's was and had been exclusively male. In my Junior year they decide to bring 6 - yes, six - girls into the population of 350 males.

As you might imagine, this created a bit of pandemonium. (/understatement)

Our gymnasium had shower facilities, but they were totally open - no walls between the stalls, no curtains. We guys just hung out in the breeze after gym class, and beside a few jerks making trouble there were rarely any issues.

Then the girls came along. The mucky-mucks ran around like chickens without heads, wondering what to do. They ignored our generous offer to share shower time with the ladies and decided to just give the girls their own shower times, with a few burly guards to make sure there was no inappropriate visitors.

But those girls had to shower without any curtains ...


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## QuickSilver (Nov 5, 2015)

imp said:


> Did you shower with the other girls in high school? How was that done, if so? Almost all the folks I have asked from around the Chicago area revealed that, just as we had at Morton High in Cicero, the boys were required to shower before entering the swimming pool, and all phys. ed. swimming was done in the nude. Only guy there clothed was the Coach, who occasionally was known to strip down and jump in. The girls showered together, but wore swimwear in the pool. Needless to say, we always wondered what kind of decision-making policy was behind collective naked swimming. 'Course, we guys now and then tried to sneak in a look into the girls' showers, but getting caught was a high-risk proposition!   imp



I went to Kelly at 43rd & California..  Showers were individual stalls with curtains.. Boys swam in the nude.. We had ugly green tank suits.


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2015)

Swimming in the nude? Really?
That's only happened over here when the boys went swimming in the dam on a rural property.


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## Ralphy1 (Nov 5, 2015)

And the YMCA had swimming in the nude here.  Don't know about the YWCA...


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## QuickSilver (Nov 5, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> And the YMCA had swimming in the nude here.  Don't know about the YWCA...



Nope...  not even at the YWCA....  I used to swim there.... suits were required... not optional


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## BobF (Nov 5, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Swimming in the nude? Really?
> That's only happened over here when the boys went swimming in the dam on a rural property.



If the lake behind the dam was quite large and went for miles did you folks still call it a dam or did you call it lake such and so?    Here it is river such and such behind a dam or lake whatever.


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## Butterfly (Nov 5, 2015)

I wonder what the girls at that school and their parents are saying about this situation.


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2015)

BobF said:


> If the lake behind the dam was quite large and went for miles did you folks still call it a dam or did you call it lake such and so?    Here it is river such and such behind a dam or lake whatever.



Australia is a very dry country and the dam I referred to would be an agricultural one constructed with a digger to collect run off water for the cattle or the sheep.
Big dams do tend to be called Lake Such and Such but you aren't allowed to swim in the catchment area or the dam itself.


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## Dudewho (Nov 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I would think that the girls have little to worry about from someone who considers herself to be a female..  I don't think "he" is interested in using that male equipment or ogle the girls do you?   Or do you consider the mere presence of a penis to be a threat?



Good thinking Quick,
I'm sure the 14 15 and 16 year old girls in the locker room feel the same way as you. good grief you're out of touch.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 6, 2015)

Dudewho said:


> Good thinking Quick,
> I'm sure the 14 15 and 16 year old girls in the locker room feel the same way as you. good grief you're out of touch.



Right... because I was NEVER 14 15 or 16

Guess you didn't read all my posts...  I would have had no problem with a transgender in the locker room... so long as there were shower curtains for everyone.   I have never been in a girls locker room where there weren't...   But apparently in this particular locker room only the transgender had curtains... so I can understand her feeling singled out.


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## Dudewho (Nov 6, 2015)

That's what the school did but that's not good enough for your buddies at the obama a ministration. They want full equal rights nothing special for this child. also I don't believe you were ever a teenage girl.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 6, 2015)

Dudewho said:


> That's what the school did but that's not good enough for your buddies at the obama a ministration. They want full equal rights nothing special for this child. also I don't believe you were ever a teenage girl.



I still have no idea "what" you are.


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## Dudewho (Nov 6, 2015)

Quick,
Maybe you can help me out, I just got arrested in the female changing room in Belk department store. they are not buying theI' "m feeling female today" and "what are you afraid of my penis" defense.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 6, 2015)

Dudewho said:


> Quick,
> Maybe you can help me out, I just got arrested in the female changing room in Belk department store. they are not buying theI' "m feeling female today" and "what are you afraid of my penis" defense.



I wouldn't worry too much, when you get to Juvenile Hall they'll just call your Dad to come get ya and maybe suggest some intense counseling.  Sarcasm breeds sarcasm.


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## imp (Nov 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I went to Kelly at 43rd & California..  Showers were individual stalls with curtains.. Boys swam in the nude.. We had ugly green tank suits.



QS, how glad I am you substantiated my description. Or maybe I should not say it, ya mightn't wanna make the likes of *ME *happy!

Seriously, then, the nude swimming was not confined to suburbs, but perhaps county-wide? Some sort of health decision or something. For me, it just didn't "hold water", then, or now. Those of us boys not yet "developed" were looked-down upon by the others. Produced mental scars? Hell, I already had plenty of those on my own, and then, after nearly drowning in that damned pool, pulled out gasping, looking like a half-dead little squirt, the snickering, Coach demanding why was I in the deep end, etc. 

Gotta admit, given the "public" circumstances, nary a single boy showed "bodily interest" in any other.   imp


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## imp (Nov 6, 2015)

BobF said:


> If the lake behind the dam was quite large and went for miles did you folks still call it a dam or did you call it lake such and so?    Here it is river such and such behind a dam or lake whatever.



Bob, FYI, nude swimming is done in the lake behind the dam, and nude trolling on the crest, on top of it.   imp


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## QuickSilver (Nov 6, 2015)

Well... for sure Kelly wasn't in the suburbs... it was smack dab in the middle of Chicago proper.


I don't know why boys had to swim in the nude..  It doesn't make sense does it...  It wasn't a matter of having to provide suits as they had suits for the girls.   I remember grabbing a suit out of a box and heading to the showers and then to the pool...  Those that could swim wore white swim caps... those that couldn't swim wore red caps..    Then after swim class hitting the locker room again and putting the wet suit in a  plastic tub.


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## AprilT (Nov 6, 2015)

QS, I'm like you, I've never know of this boys swimming nude thing and I've live in the burbs and in cities.  I'm scratching my head on that one, never even heard about it.

But wouldn't you know it:  

http://www.chicagonow.com/open-heart/2014/08/swimming-naked-in-gym-class-really-happened/

I should add, some people say this is a myth, I can't really confirm one way or the other except there are a number of claims around the net it happened.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 6, 2015)

Yes.. the  boys swam nude... and we used to try to figure out a way to peek in... but never could.. the doors were guarded


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## AprilT (Nov 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes.. the  boys swam nude... and we used to try to figure out a way to peek in... but never could.. the doors were guarded




Oh, OK, I guess I misunderstood, so this happened at a school you attended as well?  Were the people in charge priest?   Just wondering is all, such a weird requirement as from what I've been reading, it was mandatory and quite a few boys weren't happy about it.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 6, 2015)

AprilT said:


> Oh, OK, I guess I misunderstood, so this happened at a school you attended as well?  Were the people in charge priest?   Just wondering is all, such a weird requirement as from what I've been reading, it was mandatory and quite a few boys weren't happy about it.




Kelly was a Chicago PUBLIC School..... boys swam naked at ALL Chicago public high schools..  Girls wore suits.


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## fureverywhere (Nov 6, 2015)

Something I might say about political correctness is that of course like any cause it can be taken to ridiculous extremes. Someone who irks the heck out of me is Caitlyn Jenner. It's not because I'm against people being transgendered. During my teen years I was mistaken for a boy more than once, gender-bending can be empowering. But Caitlyn like all the other reality stars is just too " Look at me! Look at me!! Keep me in the headlines and look at me!!!". Enough already...

I posted on one site a story that I think sums up tolerance and PC in a good way. Forgive me if I put it here already, but I don't think I did. In the late nineties there was a band called Hootie and the Blowfish. Darius Rucker was the singer and one of the finest baritones of all time. I love Darius and have seen him perform numerous times. The most recently was a few years back.

Between songs he was talking to the audience. He mentioned that his road crew had recently introduced him to the music of David Allen Coe. Another background cultural reference, DAC was what they called "Outlaw Country". He had a bunch of mainstream hits as well as a bunch of other great songs that veer so far off political correctness they're almost laughable.

An excellent singer/songwriter in his own right, but he could make someone who uses the "n" word on a daily basis wince with some of his tunes. So back to Darius...instead of looking at Coe's whole catalog and going NO NO BAD BAD...he heard some great music in there. He even led a sing a long to " You Never Even Called Me by My Name" and he brought down the house.

Do ya'll get the message in there?


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## AprilT (Nov 6, 2015)

Yes, I could  either ignore most of Ted Bundy's history, or look at that single act of kindness.


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## Shalimar (Nov 6, 2015)

April, you have a point.


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## AprilT (Nov 6, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> April, you have a point.



On the other hand, there are plenty of musicians who's music I like a lot but they don't much care for the likes of people my skin tone, nothing political about it when I tap my finger to their tune as long as the music moves me, I'm not thinking political correctness, same with some of my friends who roll their eyes at me and me at them time to time for points of views we disagree on.  

I do take exception with the excellence of this Coe person, but to each their own.

http://www.countrystandardtime.com/d/article.asp?xid=360



http://itsaboutracestupid.blogspot.com/2009/05/david-alan-coe-unrepentent-racist.html


from above link, some lyrics from one of his songs:

 (asterisks not in original)

"Now women make me think of consolation
prison makes me think of isolation
ni**ers made me vote for segregation
and cocaine makes me" [you get the idea] 
and later,
"Well it's hard to work for a dollar a week
and the Ku Klux Klan is bigger
so take the sheets off of your bed
and let's go hang a ni**er"


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## imp (Nov 6, 2015)

AprilT said:


> QS, I'm like you, I've never know of this boys swimming nude thing and I've live in the burbs and in cities.  I'm scratching my head on that one, never even heard about it.
> 
> But wouldn't you know it:
> 
> ...



Quote from the above link:

*“The reasons for this barbaric and hurtful practice were ill-founded,” Richard Senelick, a neurologist and medical director of the Rehabilitation Institute of San Antonio, writes in The Atlantic. “The need for hygiene, the fear of bathing suit threads clogging the pool or the desire to ‘build cohesion’ between young men,” Senelick believed, resulted in boys’ “shame and embarrassment.”


*I can attest to the fact that from 1956 to 1960, I swam nude in high school gym class, one day a week. Traumatic, "shamed, and embarrassed?" Get a life, fer Chrissakes! Yeah, at first it seemed weird; after that, the novelty gone, it became fun (for those who did not sink in the deep end!). Though, any who had previously been to any of the local public pools, already knew that _everyone _had to shower, and submit to a foot inspection. The showering for men & boys was done communally. First I ever heard, or knew, of pubic hair, was in the showers at Forest Park Pool, about age 12 (guess I had none yet!). 

Much worse than the nude experience, was the deplorable smell and conditions in the locker room. The floors, concrete, after years of bare-foot use, body-oils, who knows what-all, were slick and slimy. I'm describing my high school, remember. My nephews both attended Riverside-Brookfield High, 4 years apart, swam nude. Their friends in wrestling events from all around the area, Melrose Park, Proviso East and West, confirmed to them, they too, swam nude. It was not an option. You participated, or, failing to get a Doctor's excuse, failed Phys. Ed.   imp


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## fureverywhere (Nov 6, 2015)

I beg to differ with your opinion, these are the lyrics to "Would You Be My Lady". Perhaps the singer is addressing a not so perfect past but can she love him as he is? A very sweet, romantic song...a man asking his woman to accept him and he will love her unconditionally in return.

Would you hold on to my hand when I get lonely?
 Could I come to you whenever I'm in need?
 Would you always have a place for me to lay my body down?
 Would you be my lady, in the morning, would you be lady?
Would you walk with me across the bridges I forgot to burn?
 Could you face the future looking at my past?
 If I took the time to teach you all the things you'll need to learn
 To be my lady, in the evening, would you be my lady?
Does it matter to you that you're not my first love?
 Would you let a thing like that stand in your way?
 If I said you was the woman that could ease my troubled mind
 Would you be my lady, when I need you, would you be my lady?
Would you walk with me across the bridges I forgot to burn?
 Could you face the future looking at my past?
 If I took the time to teach you all things you'll need to learn
 To be my lady, in the morning, would you be my lady?
Would you always have a place for me to lay my body down?

Then this tune is called "If That Ain't Country". We had a whole bunch of neighbors in Pennsylvania like this not even 10 years ago, rebel flags waving on the front porch, and they were proud. It is what it is.

The old man was covered with tattoos and scars
He got some in prison and others in bars
The rest he got workin' on old junk cars in the daytime
They looked like tombstones in our yard
And I never seen him when he wasn't tired and mean
He sold used parts to make ends meet
Covered with grease from his head to his feet
Cussin' the sweat and the Texas heat and mosquiters
And the neighbors said we lived like hicks
But they brung their cars for pa to fix anyhow
He was veteran-proud tried and true
He'd fought till his heart was black and blue
Didn't know how he'd made it through the hard times
He bought our house on the GI Bill
But it wasn't worth all he had to kill to git it
He drank pearl in a can and Jack Daniels black
Chewed tobacco from a mail pouch sack
Had an old dog that was trained to attack sometimes
He'd get drunk and mean as a rattlesnake
And there wasn't too much that he would take from a stranger
There were thirteen kids and a bunch of dogs
A house full of chickens and a yard full of hogs
I spent the summertime cuttin' up logs for the winter
Tryin' like the devil to find the Lord
Workin' like a ****** for my room and board
Coal-burin' stove no natural gas if that ain't country I'll kiss your ass
If that ain't country it'll hairlip the pope
If that ain't country it's a damn good joke
I've seen the Grand Ole Opry and I've met Johnny Cash
If that ain't country I'll kiss your ass
[ steel ]
Mama sells eggs at a grocery store my oldest sister is a first-rate whore
Dad says she can't come home anymore and he means it
Ma just sits and keeps her silence
Sister she left cause dad got violent and he knows it
Mama she's old far beyond her time
From chopping tobacco and I've seen her cryin'
When blood started flowin' from her calloused hand and it hurt me
She'd just keep workin' tryin' to help the old man
To the end of one row and back again like always
She's been through hell since junior went to jail
When the lights go out she ain't never failed
To get down on her knees and pray because she loves him
Told all the neighbors he was off in the war
Fightin' for freedom he's good to the core and she's proud
Now our place was a graveyard for automobiles
At the end of the porch there was four stacks of wheels
And tires for sale for a dollar or two cash
There was fifty holes in an old tin roof
Me and my family we was livin' proof
The people who forgot about poor white trash
And if that ain't country I'll kiss your ass
If that ain't country...
I'm thinking tonight of my blue eyes concerning the great speckled bird
I didn't know God made honky tonk angels and went back to the wild side of life.


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## AprilT (Nov 6, 2015)

I see what you mean, those lyrics cancel out the other.


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## Kitties (Nov 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Personally, I've never been in a locker room shower that didn't have curtains.



My junior high school had completely open showers. One of the worst times of life for many people and this is what we got. That and nasty gym teachers.


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## mitchezz (Nov 6, 2015)

I have never ever heard of nude swimming at Australian schools. I guess the reason girls wore cossies was modesty. Very strange behaviour to an outsider. Also the communal cossies.......yuck....we always brought our own. When I was in high school we didn't have showers at school........just put up with the smell. I attended a Ladies College as they were called back then.....a private girls school...and as we all know ladies don't perspire they glow.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> I have never ever heard of nude swimming at Australian schools. I guess the reason girls wore cossies was modesty. Very strange behaviour to an outsider. Also the communal cossies.......yuck....we always brought our own. When I was in high school we didn't have showers at school........just put up with the smell. I attended a Ladies College as they were called back then.....a private girls school...and as we all know ladies don't perspire they glow.



Exactly, Mitchezz. 
And after a week of wearing the same school uniform dress in Summer, it was still as fresh as a daisy. :rofl:


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