# The Police Knee On The Neck Is Allowed!!



## fmdog44 (May 29, 2020)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aint-allowed-minneapolis-can-kill/5274334002/
The way a Minneapolis police officer restrained George Floyd before he died — placing his knee on Floyd's neck while the man lay on his stomach — is widely discredited by law enforcement experts because it can cause suffocation.

But the technique is allowed in Minneapolis.

Wow! Here we go with constant debates if it is allowed was it murder? Why fire the cops? Why charge him with murder? These questions will smother the media now.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aint-allowed-minneapolis-can-kill/5274334002/
> The way a Minneapolis police officer restrained George Floyd before he died — placing his knee on Floyd's neck while the man lay on his stomach — is widely discredited by law enforcement experts because it can cause suffocation.
> 
> But the technique is allowed in Minneapolis.
> ...




  Exactly .... If he was following department procedure ? Then there should be no charges.


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## Kaila (May 29, 2020)

With multiple armed , trained policemen, and one un-armed suspect, who might have done a non-violent crime?


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

If it’s allowed in Minneapolis  and the technique kills people then they may want to reconsider their technique  and if the victim shouts out he can’t breathe and bystanders shout out he can’t breathe and nothing was done, then  clearly something went wrong. With a police officer doing this with his hand in his pocket like there wasn’t a care in the world speaks volumes also. It was video recorded for the world to see. Those who don’t see this have their own personal axe to grind.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Kaila said:


> With multiple armed , trained policemen, and one un-armed suspect, who might have done a non-vilent crime?




 If that is department procedure ? And he chose to use it ? How can there be criminal charges ?


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> If it’s allowed in Minneapolis  and the technique kills people then they may want to reconsider.




_If _that is what killed him ? .........I agree.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> _If _that is what killed him ? .........I agree.


According to the autopsy it is but I’m not a professional and neither are you,


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> If it’s allowed in Minneapolis  and the technique kills people then they may want to reconsider their technique  and if the victim shouts out he can’t breathe and bystanders shout out he can’t breathe and nothing was done, then  clearly something went wrong. With a police officer doing this with his hand in his pocket like there wasn’t a care in the world speaks volumes also. It was video recorded for the world to see. *Those who don’t see this have their own personal axe to grind.*


And that's putting it mildly.


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> Exactly .... If he was following department procedure ? Then there should be no charges.


Kindly pull-up and post a copy of the Departments Procedures for us that clearly outlines that MURDER is authorized.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> According to the autopsy it is but I’m not a professional and neither are you,



 I never said or even indicated that I was ...........


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Kindly pull-up and post a copy of the Departments Procedures for us that clearly outlines that MURDER is authorized.




 I never said one thing about murder... I merely noted that the kneeling on the neck _*might*_ be procedure ? If it is ? then there should be no charges IMO.


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said one thing about murder... I merely noted that the kneeling on the neck _*might*_ be procedure ? If it is ? then there should be no charges IMO.


Do you wear spectacles?


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Do you wear spectacles?




  HUH ? What does this have to do with anything ?


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> HUH ? What does this have to do with anything ?


I'm looking for just a simple yes or no answer to my question.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said or even indicated that I was ...........


And neither did I . I was merely answering the question about how he died according to the professionals.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said one thing about murder... I merely noted that the kneeling on the neck _*might*_ be procedure ? If it is ? then there should be no charges IMO.


And if kneeling on a civilian with enough pressure to kill them is ‘procedure’ then clearly there’s something wrong with their procedure OR the person applying the procedure.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> I'm looking for just a simple yes or no answer to my question.



 Yes I wear glasses....Again, what does that have to do with anything?

 And just a note.......You don't get to ask a question .... then specify how it is answered.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

Besides which, the ‘said’ man has already been charged and arrested for man slaughter.
https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/george-floyd’s-murderer-arrested.49600/


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> And if kneeling on a civilian with enough pressure to kill them is ‘procedure’ then clearly there’s something wrong with their procedure OR the person applying the procedure.



 Procedure may need to be addressed ? OK fine, but charging this officer criminally is not the way. Address the procedure, change it if decided, then charge the next officer that wrongfully applies it.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> Procedure may need to be addressed ? OK fine, but charging this officer criminally is not the way. Address the procedure, change it if decided, then charge the next officer that wrongfully applies it.


Maybe you should suggest this to the Minnesota justice system.


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## Kaila (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> If that is department procedure ? And he chose to use it ?



Wouldn't  it be required to be used only under appropriate circumstances?


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> *Yes I wear glasses....Again, what does that have to do with anything*?
> 
> And just a note.......You don't get to ask a question .... then specify how it is answered.


May I suggest you give the lenses a good cleaning and re-watch the video again, as the video clearly outlines the excessive application of a known restraining method that can result in death.

Reflecting on Department Procedures, and knowing that applying the knee restraint can kill, and knowing from the video that on more than one occasion, George Floyd, called out to Derek Chauvin, informing him that he could not breathe, would it be safe to say that Derek Chauvin, exceeded the knee restraint beyond a reasonable and acceptable period of time, knowing full well that death could result?

My answer is, YES, and not only did Derek Chauvin, see a man to his grave, Derek Chauvin, seen the needless death of George Floyd with total and absolute disdain, which is clearly apparent in the video, as Derek Chauvin, can be seen acting so casually with his left hand in his pocket as if to broadcast to all that he didn't have a care in the world for George Chauvin or his condition, which the video also clearly shows, as George's unanswered calls that he was having a difficult time breathing are repeatedly ignored.

I can't think of a better example of pure unadulterated murder.


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> Procedure may need to be addressed ? OK fine, but charging this officer criminally is not the way. Address the procedure, change it if decided, then charge the next officer that wrongfully applies it.


So let me get this straight, you are attempting to persuade us here right now to believe that the manner in which Derek Chauvin, applied the knee restraint was within Department Procedures, and violated not a single thing?

So ignoring the repeated calls from George Floyd, as to his inability to breathe, and continuing a sustained restraining technique that is well known to cause death, falls within the order of Department Procedures? I think not.

Aside from Derek Chauvin's life being in no present danger which is clearly apparent in the video, there was no reason whatsoever for George Floyd, to be restrained in the manner he was, nor with a restraining technique that is known to cause death, and/or for the extended period of time that he was. I highly doubt the Departments Procedures approve of and allow the use of such deadly measures and force to detain an otherwise harmless and zero-threat individual.


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## Sunny (May 29, 2020)

I can't imagine any legitimate police department in this country having this kind of murder as a permissible "procedure."  Maybe it can be employed with an armed suspect who is clearly posing a threat to others. And even then, just long enough to make him drop his weapon. What kind of monstrous law enforcement would justify killing an unarmed man pleading for his life like this?  And Minneapolis, of all places?  Something is rotten with that whole argument.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> So let me get this straight, you are attempting to persuade us here right now to believe that the manner in which Derek Chauvin, applied the knee restraint was within Department Procedures, and violated not a single thing?
> 
> So ignoring the repeated calls from George Floyd, as to his inability to breathe, and continuing a sustained restraining technique that is well known to cause death, falls within the order of Department Procedures? I think not.
> 
> Aside from Derek Chauvin's life being in no present danger which is clearly apparent in the video, there was no reason whatsoever for George Floyd, to be restrained in the manner he was, nor with a restraining technique that is known to cause death, and/or for the extended period of time that he was. I highly doubt the Departments Procedures approve of and allow the use of such deadly measures and force to detain an otherwise harmless and zero-threat individual.




 I am not trying to "persuade" you to anything....read before you comment. All I am saying is that it might be procedure ?? And if it is ? he should not be charged IMO....And if it is, perhaps the procedure needs to addressed & changed if their command sees fit to do so.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> May I suggest you give the lenses a good cleaning and re-watch the video again, as the video clearly outlines the excessive application of a known restraining method that can result in death.
> 
> Reflecting on Department Procedures, and knowing that applying the knee restraint can kill, and knowing from the video that on more than one occasion, George Floyd, called out to Derek Chauvin, informing him that he could not breathe, would it be safe to say that Derek Chauvin, exceeded the knee restraint beyond a reasonable and acceptable period of time, knowing full well that death could result?
> 
> ...




 I watched the video, several times. But I do not jump to conclusions about what I saw. 

 How'bout we wait for the medical examiners report ?


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I am not trying to "persuade" you to anything....read before you comment. *All I am saying is that it might be procedure* ?? And if it is ? he should not be charged IMO....And if it is, perhaps the procedure needs to addressed & changed if their command sees fit to do so.


To kill? Murder?


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I watched the video, several times. But I do not jump to conclusions about what I saw.
> 
> How'bout we wait for the medical examiners report ?


There's no discounting your suggestion, and I agree with you, but there's no taking away from the idea that what transpired is not normal.


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## rgp (May 29, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> There's no discounting your suggestion, and I agree with you, but there's no taking away from the idea that what transpired is not normal.




 Well, on that you may be right. 

 Wait & see is all we can do at this point .


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## Aunt Marg (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well, on that you may be right.
> 
> Wait & see is all we can do at this point .


You're one tough customer but I like it!


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> I watched the video, several times. But I do not jump to conclusions about what I saw.
> 
> How'bout we wait for the medical examiners report ?


There is a report. The medical examiners reported that he died from no oxygen to the brain. This isn’t a ‘gee I wonder how that happened ‘ case which is why he has already been charged  with man slaughter. What part do you not understand?


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## win231 (May 29, 2020)

Keesha said:


> If it’s allowed in Minneapolis  and the technique kills people then they may want to reconsider their technique  and if the victim shouts out he can’t breathe and bystanders shout out he can’t breathe and nothing was done, then  clearly something went wrong. With a police officer doing this with his hand in his pocket like there wasn’t a care in the world speaks volumes also. It was video recorded for the world to see. Those who don’t see this have their own personal axe to grind.


There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
1.  Racists.
2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.


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## win231 (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> Exactly .... If he was following department procedure ? Then there should be no charges.


Yeah...sure.  The technique is allowed.....indefinitely......for as long as it takes for the suspect to die.


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## Butterfly (May 29, 2020)

rgp said:


> If that is department procedure ? And he chose to use it ? How can there be criminal charges ?



Ah, the good ol' Nuremberg defense:  "I was just following orders, Your Honor."   I also note that the posted article further states that the *"act is authorized only to protect officer lives with a suspect who is "actively aggressive" and cannot be controlled by lesser methods."*

I have a hard time seeing how they are going to be able to prove  that  their treatment of Mr. Floyd was necessary to protect officer lives.  There were, after all, FOUR presumably armed big officers right there.  FOUR police officers together could not restrain a handcuffed subject by lesser methods and that kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck was the only way to protect officers' lives?  

Gimme a break.


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## Butterfly (May 29, 2020)

win231 said:


> There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
> 1.  Racists.
> 2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
> 3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.



I do not for a minute think that all police officers and families approve of this type of behavior.  I personally know several who would strongly disapprove.

Contrary to your belief, I do not believe that most police officers are sadistic killers.


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## Keesha (May 29, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I do not for a minute think that all police officers and families approve of this type of behavior.  I personally know several who would strongly disapprove.
> 
> Contrary to your belief, I do not believe that most police officers are sadistic killers.


I’m not at all saying this to argue with you in the least Butterfly. I know you’ve worked in a lawyers office and appreciate your posts very much but I don’t see where win said that most police officers are sadistic killers in his post. I also don’t believe he stated that all police officers and their families approve of this type of behaviour.

If that’s what he meant, then I don’t agree either but I don’t think that’s what was said. 


win231 said:


> There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
> 1.  Racists.
> 2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
> 3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.


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## Aneeda72 (May 29, 2020)

win231 said:


> There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
> 1.  Racists.
> 2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
> 3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.


I can not read everything that is written (I have some people on ignore), but I do want to respond to what @win231 has said.  I don’t see What has happened as anything at this point.  As previously stated I am patiently waiting for the investigation.

I want to wait for the truth, not the mindless ramblings of clueless people.  And, at this point, most everyone is clueless.  However,

1. I am not a racist.

2. I don’t automatically defend “anything” a police officer or any other official does.  (Btw, it was a paramedic that dropped my disabled son in a river.)

3.  I am not a retired police officer (if only I had retired from somewhere and had an income, sigh).  I have no family members in law enforcement but I will admit having had extended family members who have been in jail.   But no one in prison.

4.  And NO ONE gets to define who I or anyone else is!


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## win231 (May 29, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I do not for a minute think that all police officers and families approve of this type of behavior.  I personally know several who would strongly disapprove.
> 
> Contrary to your belief, I do not believe that most police officers are sadistic killers.


^^^ Fabrication.  I never said most police officers are sadistic killers.


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## jerry old (May 29, 2020)

Thread has worn itself out, now it getting ridiculous, if not dumb.


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## win231 (May 29, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Thread has worn itself out, now it getting ridiculous, if not dumb.


Then you shouldn't participate.


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## jerry old (May 29, 2020)

nor you


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## win231 (May 30, 2020)

jerry old said:


> nor you


I'm not the one complaining.


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## Robert59 (May 30, 2020)

All I can say what a big mess with this and Virus.


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## Butterfly (May 30, 2020)

I did not say that Win 231 said that most police officers are sadistic killers.  However, I gather from his posts in general that he has little to no respect for police officers.  If I've overstated or misunderstood, I apologize and I certainly take back that comment.

What he did say was that retired police officers or those who have family who are police officers are unwilling to see this for the murder.  I take issue with that statement.


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## Buckeye (May 30, 2020)

I have read that the autopsy report indicated that the knee on the neck was not what killed the deceased.  Also, some have said that if you can talk, you are, in fact, breathing.   All of this must be true because I read it on the interwebs.  

For the record, I have not and will not watch any videos of the events, since they most likely are highly edited to support someone's narrative.


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## Robert59 (May 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> I have read that the autopsy report indicated that the knee on the neck was not what killed the deceased.  Also, some have said that if you can talk, you are, in fact, breathing.   All of this must be true because I read it on the interwebs.
> 
> For the record, I have not and will not watch any videos of the events, since they most likely are highly edited to support someone's narrative.


What did he die from?


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I did not say that Win 231 said that most police officers are sadistic killers.  However, I gather from his posts in general that he has little to no respect for police officers.  If I've overstated or misunderstood, I apologize and I certainly take back that comment.
> 
> What he did say was that retired police officers or those who have family who are police officers are unwilling to see this for the murder.  I take issue with that statement.


As do I.


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## Ceege (May 30, 2020)

Four policemen and one handcuffed man.  Procedure or not, it should not have gone on long enough to kill this man.  

New George Floyd video shows him compliant and handcuffed early in fatal encounter https://www.newsweek.com/new-george...iant-handcuffed-early-fatal-encounter-1506684


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> What did he die from?


The way I understand it, the pressure on his neck caused a blood clout or something similar which went to his brain and blocked the oxygen flow which caused his death.  I might not be very accurate with my explanation,


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## rgp (May 30, 2020)

Keesha said:


> There is a report. The medical examiners reported that he died from no oxygen to the brain. This isn’t a ‘gee I wonder how that happened ‘ case which is why he has already been charged  with man slaughter. What part do you not understand?




 I do not understand so many folks rush to judgement, on just one video. I have seen no / heard no ME's report as yet. If it's out there ? I missed it. I heard speculation, by non-involved doctors, and people claiming to be doctors, but nothing from the ME.


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## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

> Exactly .... If he was following department procedure ? Then there should be no charges.


;

Somehow, that statement brings to mind the old meme from WW2; the frequent Nazi explanation that "I vass only following orders!"


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## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

> I do not understand so many folks rush to judgement, on just one video.



And this one brings to mind yet another old movie:  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

Don't believe what you are seeing and hearing, folks. Believe what I tell you instead. Sheesh!


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## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

> All I am saying is that it might be procedure ?? And if it is ? he should not be charged IMO....And if it is, perhaps the procedure needs to addressed & changed if their command sees fit to do so.



Rgp, you are making this too easy!  

If it is (holy music in background, please)  _procedure, _he should not be charged?  Any horrendous, evil act committed by one human being against another is excused because it is (holy music again) _procedure?_

And "perhaps the procedure needs to be addressed?"  Perhaps?

Rgp, step back and take a good look at the statements you have made on this subject. You are resurrecting the spirit of Nazi Germany in one of those corny old war movies.


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## rgp (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> And this one brings to mind yet another old movie:  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
> 
> Don't believe what you are seeing and hearing, folks. Believe what I tell you instead. Sheesh!




 Say what you will ... one video does not fully explain exactly what happened.

 And for the record, I am not telling anyone, anything .... other than wait for _*all the facts *_to be known.


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## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...aint-allowed-minneapolis-can-kill/5274334002/
> The way a Minneapolis police officer restrained George Floyd before he died — placing his knee on Floyd's neck while the man lay on his stomach — is widely discredited by law enforcement experts because it can cause suffocation.
> 
> But the technique is allowed in Minneapolis.
> ...




Regardless of what's allowed in Minneapolis, the issue is the degree:

"The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive."

...Two minutes and 53 seconds after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive.


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, you are making this too easy!
> 
> If it is (holy music in background, please)  _procedure, _he should not be charged?  Any horrendous, evil act committed by one human being against another is excused because it is (holy music again) _procedure?_
> 
> ...


I would actually like your references to Nazi Germany dropped.  There is NO comparison.  It is insulting and painful to those who survived the horror.   It is insulting and painful to their family members.  It makes you look uneducated, you might be, idk.  But stop.

Some of my immediate family are Catholic.  Some of my immediate family are Jewish.  I, personally, am insulted by your comments.


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## Buckeye (May 30, 2020)

Here's a link to part of the ME report:

George Floyd ME extract

It is interesting to note that, per this report, Floyd was complaining about not being able to breath while he was still standing.  

I dunno.


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## rgp (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, you are making this too easy!
> 
> If it is (holy music in background, please)  _procedure, _he should not be charged?  Any horrendous, evil act committed by one human being against another is excused because it is (holy music again) _procedure?_
> 
> ...




 OK, I get it ..... you think you have all the answers. But the fact is, you [nor I] know what all the police training is & was in that police department. And if that is the way they are indeed taught to subdue a suspect ? Then it is procedure , and they are permitted to use that maneuver .

 I am reading preliminary autopsies now that state he did not even die from asphyxiation ? I have not read them all, but is not looking like the 'cause' of death.

But if you somehow feel you fortify your argument / position on the subject, by insulting me? Belittling me, Then by all means .... carry on.


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

I heard that the family of Mr. Floyd is having Dr. Michael Baden is flying to Minneapolis to perform his own autopsy.


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## rgp (May 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Here's a link to part of the ME report:
> 
> George Floyd ME extract
> 
> ...




 I have read that one ..... I'm reading others.


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## rgp (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> I heard that the family of Mr. Floyd is having Dr. Michael Baden is flying to Minneapolis to perform his own autopsy.




 So which one will be the one, that makes the final determination as to the cause of death I wonder ?


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

Evidently, the Coroner in Minneapolis found that Mr. Floyd had some underlying heart issues that may have contributed to his death, so that is why Dr. Baden (at the family's request and expense) is doing another autopsy. 

My feeling is that if the Coroner in Minneapolis lists on the death certificate that Mr. Floyd's underlying heart problems aided in his death, it may change the amount of money that the family may receive. (Sorry to put it that way, but it's probably true.) 

Whether or not it could change the charges against the officer, I am unsure, so I won't comment on that issue.


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Here's a link to part of the ME report:
> 
> George Floyd ME extract
> 
> ...


The video I saw showed that he stumbled, fell, and possibly hit his head hard against the car.  This would be a contributing factor.  Also, even though he was held down with a knee, he still managed to raise up from the pavement a few times with his head.

I understand thats considered to be resisting.  It you can talk, you can breathe.  Anyway, no judgement here, just waiting for the investigation results.


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

rgp said:


> So which one will be the one, that makes the final determination as to the cause of death I wonder ?


It may go to a Coroner's inquest, if there are differing opinions.


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> Evidently, the Coroner in Minneapolis found that Mr. Floyd had some underlying heart issues that may have contributed to his death, so that is why Dr. Baden (at the family's request and expense) is doing another autopsy.
> 
> My feeling is that if the Coroner in Minneapolis lists on the death certificate that Mr. Floyd's underlying heart problems aided in his death, it may change the amount of money that the family may receive. (Sorry to put it that way, but it's probably true.)
> 
> Whether or not it could change the charges against the officer, I am unsure, so I won't comment on that issue.


I said early on that it will be about money, so you are right.  It’s always about money.


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## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I would actually like your references to Nazi Germany dropped.  There is NO comparison.  It is insulting and painful to those who survived the horror.   It is insulting and painful to their family members.  It makes you look uneducated, you might be, idk.  But stop.
> 
> Some of my immediate family are Catholic.  Some of my immediate family are Jewish.  I, personally, am insulted by your comments.



She made the comparison referencing Nazi cliches from old movies.  Regardless, with no personal emotional triggers, I see her point.  And see the extension of it.  The difference in the situations is primarily scale.  Systematic abuse by authorities leading to human death is comparable regardless of scale.  And mass abuse starts small.

Reminds me of the Martin Niemöller poem:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


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## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> ...
> 
> Whether or not it could change the charges against the officer, I am unsure, so I won't comment on that issue.




I hope they stick due to the fact that the officer continued to hold pressure on Floyd's neck for two minutes and 53 seconds after he was non-responsive.


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> The video I saw showed that he stumbled, fell, and possibly hit his head hard against the car.  This would be a contributing factor.  Also, even though he was held down with a knee, he still managed to raise up from the pavement a few times with his head.
> 
> I understand thats considered to be resisting.  It you can talk, you can breathe.  Anyway, no judgement here, just waiting for the investigation results.


If he's on the ground, hands behind the back and cuffed, it's game over. The suspect has been subdued and is under control. so unless he is doing something that would make me believe that he is attempting to free himself, I would not charge him with resisting.  

No matter what the outcome of the autopsy is, I feel that My. Floyd was treated unfairly and put in harm's way with the officer using the maneuver that he did. I have never seen that before. I stated several posts ago that cutting off the supply of blood and oxygen to the brain by blocking the carotid artery is a death sentence. 

But these looters and rioters must be stopped. I heard one person jumped over the White House fence last night. He's lucky to be waking up this morning.


----------



## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda, I find your reference to money equally offensive.  The public outrage over this has nothing to do with money.  It is very sad if you cannot see this.

About my reference to movies about Nazi Germany, I think the comparison was right on the mark. Unrestrained police brutality does call up that evil regime.  But I was referring to old movies about Nazi Germany, not the Germans themselves. (Although I am sure that business about "following orders" had its basis in reality.)

And just FYI, since you're dragging your family into this, which is totally irrelevant, (your thoughts are your own, who cares what religion your family practices), allow me to do the same.  I am Jewish, on both sides of my family.  Some cousins were lost in the Holocaust. If my grandparents had not left Hungary when they did (around 1900), I would be dead. So that morally superior &#%! doesn't cut it with me.

But, although I was referring to _movies _about Nazi behavior, probably my close ties to the Holocaust do have something to do with my visceral reaction to brutal, racist police behavior. And all the dancing around by their apologists. (Hit his head when he fell? How do we know we can trust that video?) Unbelievable.


----------



## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

911, I agree that looters and rioters must be stopped; otherwise we have chaos.  But I have to wonder, what is your opinion about the Boston Tea Party?  In spite of its name, it was no tea party. It was a riot.  When people are driven to intolerable extremes, this is what happens.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Aneeda, I find your reference to money equally offensive.  The public outrage over this has nothing to do with money.  It is very sad if you cannot see this.
> 
> About my reference to movies about Nazi Germany, I think the comparison was right on the mark. Unrestrained police brutality does call up that evil regime.  But I was referring to old movies about Nazi Germany, not the Germans themselves. (Although I am sure that business about "following orders" had its basis in reality.)
> 
> ...


How do we know we can trust any video?  You make my point.  Thanks.

Movies when you can hear the real story-whatever.  Still insulted, there is no comparison.  I didn’t claim any mortal superiority, I explained why I was insulted.  Not my fault if you can not tell the difference.  And now you’ve explained that you are jewish and lost family members, yet you platter on.  Whatever.

Not about money.  You can apologize after the family files the wrongful death lawsuit and gets the bucks.  Perhaps you should google and learn about these suits.  Educate yourself.  Not about money, those protestors you love so much have stolen lots of things.  Gained a lot of TV’s and alcohol.  Sit back, have a beer, toast the dead guy.

I have not heard you mention the 7 dead in KY.  Does one death equal those 7?  Do the injuries sustained by the injured police, thanklessly protecting the cities, equal one dead man? Do the cities destroyed, business burned, multiple lives destroyed, children traumatized equal one dead man?

Apparently to you it does.


----------



## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> ...
> 
> I have not heard you mention the 7 dead in KY.
> 
> ...



What are you referring to?  I googled and don't see anything about seven deaths in Kentucky.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> What are you referring to?  I googled and don't see anything about seven deaths in Kentucky.


It was on CNN.  But I am repeating what I heard, I didn’t google it.  The report could have been wrong.  I don’t live in KY.


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## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda, I have never seen so much scrambled thinking in one note.  So go ahead and defend police brutality, There are none so blind as those who will not see.


----------



## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> It was on CNN.  But I am repeating what I heard, I didn’t google it.  The report could have been wrong.  I don’t live in KY.



I think you misheard.  But it's a red herring regardless.  Start a new thread after researching if you're interested in something you think you heard on CNN.

You would be a much more valuable member in an online community if you'd brush up on logic/rhetoric and net etiquette.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Aneeda, I have never seen so much scrambled thinking in one note.  So go ahead and defend police brutality, There are none so blind as those who will not see.


I have not defended police brutality.   I didn’t mention police bruitity.  I asked you to stop comparing what happen here to conditions in Nazi Germany.  I gave you my reasons why I was insulted, and you claimed I was trying to take a mortal superiority attitude to whatever.

My step father was at the camps in Germany with Patton.  As far as I know, the looters have not found any camps with ovens filled with dead bodies.  But perhaps your movies did not show the camps.  Idk.

As far as scrambled thinking, hmm, maybe, after all I am not a professional writer.  But in one note?  I’m pretty sure if you read other things I post you might find more examples of what you consider to be scrambled thinking.  After all, you like passing judgements.


----------



## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

> How do we know we can trust any video?  You make my point.  Thanks.
> 
> Movies when you can hear the real story-whatever.  Still insulted, there is no comparison.  I didn’t claim any mortal superiority, I explained why I was insulted.  Not my fault if you can not tell the difference.  And now you’ve explained that you are jewish and lost family members, yet you platter on.  Whatever.
> 
> ...



Some additional thoughts on this, even though your note is so absurd that it doesn't really deserve an answer. But I can't let so much nonsense go unanswered!

1. How do we know we can trust any video?  Well, how can we trust any picture, any statement, anything that's written in the books you have encountered during your vast education?  How do we know anything, for that matter, if we have not actually seen it with our own eyes? 

Of course a video can be doctored.  But it would be pretty hard to fake a video taken close up of a man being murdered, with witnesses describing that they saw and heard exactly what is on the video. Technology can do a lot, but it can't do that.

2. "Movies when you can hear the real story. Still insulted." I don't even know what that means. I was referencing a movie. So, what exactly are you saying?  That the movies were wrong, and no Nazi storm trooper ever claimed that he was just following orders?  I made that up?

3.  "And now you’ve explained that you are jewish and lost family members, yet you platter on.  Whatever."  Huh????  (I platter on? What is plattering?) And just FYI, Aneeda, I have been an active participant on this forum for a long time now. This is the first time I have ever mentioned my ancestry, and it was in answer your throwing in the red herring about having Jewish and Catholic relatives, which makes your judgement superior to mine.

4. Throwing in arguments about protesters being after money is so absurd that it's hard to answer with a straight face. Seeing all those furious, anguished people on the news means nothing to you?  They are only after money?  What does money even have to do with this?  Another red herring.

5. As was this business about 7 mysteriously dead in KY.  And why is it relevant at all whether you live in KY or not?  

You are floundering, sweetie, trying to make some kind of point, but you really don't know how to present a logical case, except by huffing and puffing and being "offended," and tossing around a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> I think you misheard.  But it's a red herring regardless.  Start a new thread after researching if you're interested in something you think you heard on CNN.
> 
> You would be a much more valuable member in an online community if you'd brush up on logic/rhetoric and net etiquette.


Apparently, they had switched to talking about the shooting of Ms. Taylor in Louisville where 7 people were shot.  I apologize.  I watched all night and must not have noticed when they switch time and places.  Or feel asleep and woke up in a different talking point.

But, not interested in being a “valuable member” anywhere.  I lack self confidence, an ego, and a desire to please others.  I am outside the box.  And, according to your judgement, I lack net etiquette-which those who would like can add to my list of faults.  Sigh, I have so many.

However, if I ask JC for forgiveness for this most grievous fault;  will he know what I am talking about?  

Just curious.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Some additional thoughts on this, even though your note is so absurd that it doesn't really deserve an answer. But I can't let so much nonsense go unanswered!
> 
> 1. How do we know we can trust any video?  Well, how can we trust any picture, any statement, anything that's written in the books you have encountered during your vast education?  How do we know anything, for that matter, if we have not actually seen it with our own eyes?
> 
> ...


Whatever


----------



## fmdog44 (May 30, 2020)

The officer had his knee on the victim for 8-9 minutes per the video and it is said for 2 1/2 minutes after the victim showed no signs of responding. Notice also the office has his hand in his pocket I guess to be as arrogant as possible. Most police depts. do not permit this because it is very difficult for humans to breathe with pressure applied to the back and neck area. Most procedure require the arrested person be turned on their sides and or put  in to a sitting position after handcuffs are applied. It is sad how riots now are the response to this incident instead of intelligent interactions by people in power and civilian leaders. I guarantee you anarchists and white supremacists are behind the activities to make minorities look like wild, lawless crazies to the viewers. I am not some dismissing black idiots out to destroy for the fun of it but what happened to enforcing the curfews last night? Over the last Memorial Day *weekend* 46 people were shot 10 of which were killed in Chicago so tohsevwere ostly gan related and some of those types are rioting now.


----------



## 911 (May 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> 911, I agree that looters and rioters must be stopped; otherwise we have chaos.  But I have to wonder, what is your opinion about the Boston Tea Party?  In spite of its name, it was no tea party. It was a riot.  When people are driven to intolerable extremes, this is what happens.


Well, let me search my memory banks. I’m not sure with what the BTP has to do with this discussion. Wasn’t the Colonists upset about having to pay tax on their tea that came from China?

I kind of remember reading about them boarding the ship and throwing tea overboard. Was there a riot? I can’t remember.


----------



## Aunt Marg (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> *I have not defended police brutality*.   I didn’t mention police bruitity.  I asked you to stop comparing what happen here to conditions in Nazi Germany.  I gave you my reasons why I was insulted, and you claimed I was trying to take a mortal superiority attitude to whatever.
> 
> My step father was at the camps in Germany with Patton.  As far as I know, the looters have not found any camps with ovens filled with dead bodies.  But perhaps your movies did not show the camps.  Idk.
> 
> As far as scrambled thinking, hmm, maybe, after all I am not a professional writer.  But in one note?  I’m pretty sure if you read other things I post you might find more examples of what you consider to be scrambled thinking.  After all, you like passing judgements.


From all that I have read from you thus far, you've sure done a good job building one heck of a case in favour of, simply by going to the defence of the police, while repeatedly admonishing those who are sickened by the happening.


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## Keesha (May 30, 2020)

Deleted


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## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

Question for @911    Does police training include evaluation of state of consciousness?


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> The officer had his knee on the victim for 8-9 minutes per the video and it is said for 2 1/2 minutes after the victim showed no signs of responding. Notice also the office has his hand in his pocket I guess to be as arrogant as possible. Most police depts. do not permit this because it is very difficult for humans to breathe with pressure applied to the back and neck area. Most procedure require the arrested person be turned on their sides and or put  in to a sitting position after handcuffs are applied. It is sad how riots now are the response to this incident instead of intelligent interactions by people in power and civilian leaders. I guarantee you anarchists and white supremacists are behind the activities to make minorities look like wild, lawless crazies to the viewers. I am not some dismissing black idiots out to destroy for the fun of it but what happened to enforcing the curfews last night? Over the last Memorial Day *weekend* 46 people were shot 10 of which were killed in Chicago so tohsevwere ostly gan related and some of those types are rioting now.


You have done the same thing as I did. The officer’s hand is not in his pocket. He has a black glove on, so that when he rests his hand on his pants, it looks like his hand is in his pocket. If you watch the full video, you will see him move his hand off of his lap.


----------



## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

@911    Someone liked my question about state of consciousness included in police training with a laugh emoticon, but I didn't mean it as sarcasm.  You've given a lot of helpful information re your law enforcement experience and that's why I asked.  It may be that something like that isn't standard in training ...or training may not be standard across agencies and locales.  That's why I wanted your input.  My thinking is that law enforcement training should include at least basic physiological evaluation.


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## win231 (May 30, 2020)

The comments from some people who don't want to believe the officer killed the suspect remind me of a line from a movie:  "Collateral."
Tom Cruise played a professional hit man who forced a cab driver (Jamie Fox) to drive him around while he killed people.
In the first killing, Cruise shoots a guy & his body falls out of a 6th floor window.
Fox is shocked & says, "You killed him."
Cruise says, "I didn't kill him.  The bullets & the fall killed him."


----------



## Aunt Marg (May 30, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> @911 *Someone liked my question about state of consciousness included in police training with a laugh emoticon*, but I didn't mean it as sarcasm.  You've given a lot of helpful information re your law enforcement experience and that's what I asked.  It may be that something like that isn't standard in training ...or training may not be standard across agencies and locals.  That's why I wanted your input.  My thinking is that law enforcement training should include at least basic physiological evaluation.


That was me, Annie! 

As much as it may not have been extruded to suggest sarcasm, I seen so much real truth in it, so I loved it!


----------



## Aunt Marg (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> The comments from some people who don't want to believe the officer killed the suspect remind me of a line from a movie:  "Collateral."
> Tom Cruise played a professional hit man who forced a cab driver (Jamie Fox) to drive him around while he killed people.
> In the first killing, Cruise shoots a guy & his body falls out of a 6th floor window.
> Fox is shocked & says, "You killed him."
> Cruise says, "I didn't kill him.  The bullets & the fall killed him."


Bang on, Win! 

In the case of George Floyd, a blood clot killed him. No fault of anyone.


----------



## 911 (May 30, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Question for @911    Does police training include evaluation of state of consciousness?


Yes and no. In the classroom, we talk about awareness. Being aware of our surroundings, people, vehicles and things of importance. Never focus on just one thing or person.

It’s not so much of an evaluation as it is learning to be alert and making mental notes of what you saw and didn’t see.

There is an exercise we do where a sexy young girl and guy will be sitting in the classroom with a trench coat on. After the Instructor has been talking to the class for about 5 minutes, the girl and guy will stand up, (there is no forewarning), remove their coats and start yelling at one another as they walk out the classroom door. After they have gone, the Instructor will tell the Cadets to take a sheet of paper and answer the following questions. What color was the girl’s hair? What color was the man’s pants? What were they yelling about? And so on. There are 10 questions. The average score is 4 right out of 10.


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## 911 (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> The comments from some people who don't want to believe the officer killed the suspect remind me of a line from a movie:  "Collateral."
> Tom Cruise played a professional hit man who forced a cab driver (Jamie Fox) to drive him around while he killed people.
> In the first killing, Cruise shoots a guy & his body falls out of a 6th floor window.
> Fox is shocked & says, "You killed him."
> Cruise says, "I didn't kill him.  The bullets & the fall killed him."


I really liked this movie.


----------



## Robert59 (May 30, 2020)

Could all this bring the country to a lockdown by the government or race war?


----------



## Keesha (May 30, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Could all this bring the country to a lockdown by the government or race war?


Perhaps a civil war . Not that I see anything civil about it.


----------



## 911 (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> The comments from some people who don't want to believe the officer killed the suspect remind me of a line from a movie:  "Collateral."
> Tom Cruise played a professional hit man who forced a cab driver (Jamie Fox) to drive him around while he killed people.
> In the first killing, Cruise shoots a guy & his body falls out of a 6th floor window.
> Fox is shocked & says, "You killed him."
> Cruise says, "I didn't kill him.  The bullets & the fall killed him."


I think Baden’s autopsy results and opinions are going to be paramount for both the Prosecution and the defense. I was shocked (and it takes a lot to shock me) to read that the Coroner is listing coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease as contributing factors. I was like “What?”

My brother in law has hypertensive heart disease and his heart doctor had to shave part of his heart due to a thickening wall, which I never heard of before.


----------



## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Could all this bring the country to a lockdown by the government or race war?



Not on a national scale due to incredibly different demographics in different parts of the country.   There are some areas with little diversity, and there are some areas where black and white get along fine these days.  I wouldn't, however, want to be in an inner city for the next few weeks.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> The officer had his knee on the victim for 8-9 minutes per the video and it is said for 2 1/2 minutes after the victim showed no signs of responding. Notice also the office has his hand in his pocket I guess to be as arrogant as possible. Most police depts. do not permit this because it is very difficult for humans to breathe with pressure applied to the back and neck area. Most procedure require the arrested person be turned on their sides and or put  in to a sitting position after handcuffs are applied. It is sad how riots now are the response to this incident instead of intelligent interactions by people in power and civilian leaders. I guarantee you anarchists and white supremacists are behind the activities to make minorities look like wild, lawless crazies to the viewers. I am not some dismissing black idiots out to destroy for the fun of it but what happened to enforcing the curfews last night? Over the last Memorial Day *weekend* 46 people were shot 10 of which were killed in Chicago so tohsevwere ostly gan related and some of those types are rioting now.


I don‘t think the looters need any help looking wild and crazy.  Not all the people rioting are minorities.  And I actually don't know what demographics in this region are.  Just because you are a color, other than white, that does not mean you are a minority where you live.

In general, the USA is becoming brown, and eventually people with white skin will be the general minority.  But just because you have white skin, that doesn’t mean you are racially white.  The color of ones skin should not and does not matter.

The only thing that matters is a man died while in the custody of the police.


----------



## AnnieA (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> I think Baden’s autopsy results and opinions are going to be paramount for both the Prosecution and the defense. I was shocked (and it takes a lot to shock me) to read that the Coroner is listing coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. I was like “What?”
> 
> ...



Me too.  It's easy to see stroke or heart damage in a post-mortem.  Those pre-existing conditions would've had to result in a physiological event for death to occur.  What we're being told about that first autopsy is vague to the point of seemingly deliberate obfuscation.


----------



## Aunt Marg (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> I think Baden’s autopsy results and opinions are going to be paramount for both the Prosecution and the defense. I was shocked (and it takes a lot to shock me) to read that the Coroner is listing coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. I was like “What?”
> 
> My brother in law has hypertensive heart disease and his heart doctor had to shave part of his heart due to a thickening wall, which I never heard of before.





911 said:


> I think Baden’s autopsy results and opinions are going to be paramount for both the Prosecution and the defense. I was shocked (and it takes a lot to shock me) to read that the *Coroner is listing coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease*. I was like “What?”
> 
> My brother in law has hypertensive heart disease and his heart doctor had to shave part of his heart due to a thickening wall, which I never heard of before.


And people wonder why riots erupt.

A few extra spare hangman's nooses should be ready and waiting for those looking to fabricate and twist the case in favour of police injustice.


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## Pecos (May 30, 2020)

I am really angered by what those police officers did and want to see them behind bars. I also think that all of the superiors who didn't take action against previous bad behavior should be fired for not performing their duty. Among other things, an entire profession (law enforcement) has been seriously tarnished.

The riots are very unsettling to me and I have a mix of emotions that I have not sorted out yet. It is saddening, but understandable, that people feel that they have no recourse but to take to the streets. I also think that it is completely wrong for property to be destroyed.

Riots against oppression are nothing new in this country and it bothers me that some are trying to present rioting as a minority issue. If they paid any attention to history, they would remember all of the riots associated with the abuse of labor and the Vietnam War.

I have no answer as to why this country has made such little progress in creating an equitable society since the civil war. Shame on us.


----------



## Robert59 (May 30, 2020)

Our you know who said the national guard need to shot to kill all protestors.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Pecos said:


> I am really angered by what those police officers did and want to see them behind bars. I also think that all of the superiors who didn't take action against previous bad behavior should be fired for not performing their duty. Among other things, and entire profession (law enforcement) has been seriously tarnished.
> 
> The riots are very unsettling to me and I have a mix of emotions that I have not sorted out yet. It is saddening, but understandable, that people feel that they have no recourse but to take to the streets. I also think that it is completely wrong for property to be destroyed.
> 
> ...


Hmm, you mean the cowards who fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam Nam conflict?  Then got to return home with a free pass while some of the men are still buried in the jungle.

What bothers me is the men and woman, who have never provided a service in their life to this country, feel they have the right to judge those that do service.  But freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


----------



## Butterfly (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> I heard that the family of Mr. Floyd is having Dr. Michael Baden is flying to Minneapolis to perform his own autopsy.



Good!  He's supposed to be the best.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Good!  He's supposed to be the best.


Medical examiner?


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## Aunt Marg (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> *Hmm, you mean the cowards who fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam Nam conflict*?  Then got to return home with a free pass while some of the men are still buried in the jungle.
> 
> What bothers me is the men and woman, who have never provided a service in their life to this country, feel they have the right to judge those that do service.  But freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


"Cowards"? Anything but in my eyes.


----------



## Pecos (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, you mean the cowards who fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam Nam conflict?  Then got to return home with a free pass while some of the men are still buried in the jungle.
> 
> What bothers me is the men and woman, who have never provided a service in their life to this country, feel they have the right to judge those that do service.  But freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


I don't have a clue as to what you are trying to convey.
Don't bother to answer as I am adding you to my very short list of people to ignore.


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## Knight (May 30, 2020)

Maybe lost in the back & forth of all this is the length of time the knee and pressure on the torso were in use to subdue a handcuffed  "suspect".


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## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

Pecos said:


> I don't have a clue as to what you are trying to convey.
> Don't bother to answer as I am adding you to my very short list of people to ignore.


Thanks


----------



## JaniceM (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, you mean the cowards who fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam Nam conflict?  Then got to return home with a free pass while some of the men are still buried in the jungle.
> 
> What bothers me is the men and woman, who have never provided a service in their life to this country, feel they have the right to judge those that do service.  But freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


I agree with your viewpoint, til the last sentence-  it's not 'freedom of speech' when it involves violence.  
Locally, what started as 'peaceful protests' quickly escalated into the latter-  converging on the police station blocks away from where it started, throwing bricks, bottles, and rocks, and smashing police cars.


----------



## Aneeda72 (May 30, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I agree with your viewpoint, til the last sentence-  it's not 'freedom of speech' when it involves violence.
> Locally, what started as 'peaceful protests' quickly escalated into the latter-  converging on the police station blocks away from where it started, throwing bricks, bottles, and rocks, and smashing police cars.


I meant people on the forum have the right to say what they want to say.


----------



## JaniceM (May 30, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I meant people on the forum have the right to say what they want to say.


I'm sorry.  My mistake (misunderstanding).


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2020)

911 said:


> I think Baden’s autopsy results and opinions are going to be paramount for both the Prosecution and the defense. I was shocked (and it takes a lot to shock me) to read that the Coroner is listing coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease as contributing factors. I was like “What?”
> 
> My brother in law has hypertensive heart disease and his heart doctor had to shave part of his heart due to a thickening wall, which I never heard of before.


I'm not a lawyer, but I have heard lawyers explain what the law is in situations where someone who was murdered has pre-existing conditions that may have contributed to his death.  _"You take your victim as he is," _which I interpret to mean "It doesn't matter what condition or illness a victim has.  If a perpetrator's actions _contributed _to his death, he is just as guilty as if the victim was in perfect health."

A similar defense tactic was used in the manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray (the doctor who killed Michael Jackson).  His defense attorney presented evidence about Jackson's medical history to show that his death wasn't the doctor's fault.  It didn't work; the doctor was convicted of manslaughter.   I'm sure the dirtbag cop's attorney will use the same tactic; the coroner is already setting the stage by mentioning the victim's "Hypertension" & other conditions.
Technically, I doubt anyone is in "perfect" health at 50 years of age, or even younger; there would have to be some wear & tear; otherwise we would see professional athletes who haven't retired at that age.
Just about _everyone _has some "condition;" someone in absolutely-perfect health is a rarity. I think it's a shame that such "evidence" is even permitted.


----------



## Sunny (May 30, 2020)

Robert, yeah, he tweeted "Looting means shooting," or something inspirational like that.


----------



## 911 (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but I have heard lawyers explain what the law is in situations where someone who was murdered has pre-existing conditions that may have contributed to his death.  _"You take your victim as he is," _which I interpret to mean "It doesn't matter what condition or illness a victim has.  If a perpetrator's actions _contributed _to his death, he is just as guilty as if the victim was in perfect health."
> 
> A similar defense tactic was used in the manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray (the doctor who killed Michael Jackson).  His defense attorney presented evidence about Jackson's medical history to show that his death wasn't the doctor's fault.  It didn't work; the doctor was convicted of manslaughter.   I'm sure the dirtbag cop's attorney will use the same tactic; the coroner is already setting the stage by mentioning the victim's "Hypertension" & other conditions.
> Technically, I doubt anyone is in "perfect" health at 50 years of age, or even younger; there would have to be some wear & tear; otherwise we would see professional athletes who haven't retired at that age.
> Just about _everyone _has some "condition;" someone in absolutely-perfect health is a rarity. I think it's a shame that such "evidence" is even permitted.


I have had cases in the past where the victim had terminal cancer, but was murdered and the Judge still allowed the Prosecutor to try the case as a murder case. The murderer was found guilty and sentenced to life. 

Then there was a case in Philadelphia where the man had a heart attack and died while his killer was on trial. The judge ruled that the case could continue. He was found guilty and the case was appealed, but the Appellate Court upheld the ruling and the murderer received a life sentence for Felony Murder. 

I don't think bringing Baden in is for the reason of guilt or innocence, although if it's favorable for the defense, I am sure that they will try to sneak it in. I think this is about money when the family sues. If the Coroner would say that he only had another 5 years to live, the amount will be less than if Baden would state that the victim could have lived for another 15 years. 

To me, this is crazy. In many instances people have been very ill, but have hung on for many years.


----------



## Knight (May 30, 2020)

Maybe lost in the back & forth of all this is the length of time the knee and pressure on the torso were in use to subdue a handcuffed "suspect".

I copied that from my previous post. I think I've been watching to many police TV shows. On TV they have a suspect on the ground, handcuff him or her, lift them as soon as they are cuffed, guard the suspects head as they are being placed in the back of a police car. 

I think the cost of the outside forensic expert should be paid for by the police department. Transparency is woefully needed in this case.

BUT
Unless & until everything is investigated & a determination is made I'm willing to wait.


----------



## fmdog44 (May 30, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Could all this bring the country to a lockdown by the government or race war?


No it like all others will fade in to the past.


----------



## Buckeye (May 30, 2020)

Off topic, but this thread is a great example of why I am glad we don't allow political discussions on this forum.  Just read some of the nastiness from otherwise good hearted people just because we all see things differently.


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Off topic, but this thread is a great example of why I am glad we don't allow political discussions on this forum.  Just read some of the nastiness from otherwise good hearted people just because we all see things differently.


Nothing wrong with nastiness when it's earned.


----------



## Buckeye (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> Nothing wrong with nastiness when it's earned.



And thanks for proving my point.  Having a different opinion does not merit nastiness,  on either side of this discussion.


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> And thanks for proving my point.  Having a different opinion does not merit nastiness,  on either side of this discussion.


The nastiness is directed at the dirtbag cop; not forum members.


----------



## Buckeye (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> The nastiness is directed at the dirtbag cop; not forum members.



Sorry, but no.  If you go back and read the posts in this thread, a lot of nastiness is directed at other posters.


----------



## Butterfly (May 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but I have heard lawyers explain what the law is in situations where someone who was murdered has pre-existing conditions that may have contributed to his death.  _"You take your victim as he is," _which I interpret to mean "It doesn't matter what condition or illness a victim has.  If a perpetrator's actions _contributed _to his death, he is just as guilty as if the victim was in perfect health."
> 
> A similar defense tactic was used in the manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray (the doctor who killed Michael Jackson).  His defense attorney presented evidence about Jackson's medical history to show that his death wasn't the doctor's fault.  It didn't work; the doctor was convicted of manslaughter.   I'm sure the dirtbag cop's attorney will use the same tactic; the coroner is already setting the stage by mentioning the victim's "Hypertension" & other conditions.
> Technically, I doubt anyone is in "perfect" health at 50 years of age, or even younger; there would have to be some wear & tear; otherwise we would see professional athletes who haven't retired at that age.
> Just about _everyone _has some "condition;" someone in absolutely-perfect health is a rarity. I think it's a shame that such "evidence" is even permitted.




Yup, "You take your victim (or Plaintiff) as he is" is a very common saying, and your interpretation of it is correct.  Killing is killing.

I agree with you --  I think such a defense is BS, too.


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## Butterfly (May 31, 2020)

911 said:


> I have had cases in the past where the victim had terminal cancer, but was murdered and the Judge still allowed the Prosecutor to try the case as a murder case. The murderer was found guilty and sentenced to life.
> 
> Then there was a case in Philadelphia where the man had a heart attack and died while his killer was on trial. The judge ruled that the case could continue. He was found guilty and the case was appealed, but the Appellate Court upheld the ruling and the murderer received a life sentence for Felony Murder.
> 
> ...




Maybe they're bringing in Dr. Baden to try to clarify the cause of death, so as to debunk any defense that it wasn't the pressure on the neck that caused Mr. Floyd's death.  Not that that defense usually flies, but it can muddy up the waters for the jury, I think.


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## rgp (May 31, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Off topic, but this thread is a great example of why I am glad we don't allow political discussions on this forum.  Just read some of the nastiness from otherwise good hearted people just because we all see things differently.




 And I need to say ... Politics/Gov are the only things that effect us _all_, and that _we_ can change, and that _should_ be discussed above all others. 

 Seeing things differently .... is exactly how we arrive at a conclusion.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

rgp said:


> And I need to say ... Politics/Gov are the only things that effect us _all_, and that _we_ can change, and that _should_ be discussed above all others.
> 
> Seeing things differently .... is exactly how we arrive at a conclusion.


I agree with rgp.  Unfortunately I think things will change for the worst.  It seems that no one can put Pandora back in the box.  I hope I am wrong but I believe really bad things are coming.  Stay safe people.


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## 911 (May 31, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Maybe they're bringing in Dr. Baden to try to clarify the cause of death, so as to debunk any defense that it wasn't the pressure on the neck that caused Mr. Floyd's death.  Not that that defense usually flies, but it can muddy up the waters for the jury, I think.


That’s probably the hope, but can the judge not allow that information into evidence? On the death certificate, it asks “Manner of Death” and “Cause of Death.” I this case, the manner of death would be homicide, the cause of death would be suffocation.

If cause of death is suffocation, but he had pre existing conditions that may have contributed to his death, does that also get published on the death certificate?


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## Camper6 (May 31, 2020)

Yes I know the knee on the neck is allowed for police to use.

The question I have is.  For how long?

There is something strange going on here.  The police officer and the victim worked as security in the same firm.


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## Buckeye (May 31, 2020)

rgp said:


> And I need to say ... Politics/Gov are the only things that effect us _all_, and that _we_ can change, and that _should_ be discussed above all others.
> 
> Seeing things differently .... is exactly how we arrive at a conclusion.



Again, this thread is an excellent example of how quickly many other wise good hearted people can not stay civil, and feel the need to mount personal attacks against other posters.  For example, here's post #32:

*There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
1.  Racists.
2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.*

this is actually one of the milder examples, but calling someone a racist because they are waiting on facts is not helpful or civil.  There are lots of forums where politics are allowed.  I like this one because they are not allowed.  I'd rather view the great pictures some folks provide, or the jokes, or the threads about music, etc.


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## fmdog44 (May 31, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, you mean the cowards who fled to Canada to avoid serving in the Vietnam Nam conflict?  Then got to return home with a free pass while some of the men are still buried in the jungle.
> 
> What bothers me is the men and woman, who have never provided a service in their life to this country, feel they have the right to judge those that do service.  But freedom of speech is freedom of speech.


Why don't talk about the fact that despite years of claiming progress in the war the U.S. military knew it was a lost cause? Or talk about the corrupt government in the South? Then explain the tragic and disgraceful exit out of Viet Nam proving it was a disaster from the start. Johnson, Nixon and the top bass were the cowards.


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## Keesha (May 31, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> There is something strange going on here.  The police officer and the victim worked as security in the same firm.


Yes and only just last year.


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## Sunny (May 31, 2020)

> For the record, I have not and will not watch any videos of the events, since they most likely are highly edited to support someone's narrative.



Buckeye, while this might be true, where do we draw the line?  Any photo, video, recording, etc. might be "highly edited."  So, where else then do we get our news?  I think we have to apply our own judgement and internal filters as to what we believe. A video showing a police officer abusing someone is still showing abuse, even if it is edited.

About your comment in a different note about not liking political discussions, we do have to accept that restriction, as that is the rule in this forum. But I don't particularly agree with it. I think civilized people can have a political discussion, even a heated one, without crossing the line into abuse. This restriction hobbles a lot of potentially informative and fascinating discussions.  In these times of suspicion and polarization, we need more communication between people, not less.


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## Camper6 (May 31, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Buckeye, while this might be true, where do we draw the line?  Any photo, video, recording, etc. might be "highly edited."  So, where else then do we get our news?  I think we have to apply our own judgement and internal filters as to what we believe. A video showing a police officer abusing someone is still showing abuse, even if it is edited.
> 
> About your comment in a different note about not liking political discussions, we do have to accept that restriction, as that is the rule in this forum. But I don't particularly agree with it. I think civilized people can have a political discussion, even a heated one, without crossing the line into abuse. This restriction hobbles a lot of potentially informative and fascinating discussions.  In these times of suspicion and polarization, we need more communication between people, not less.


I belong to another forum which is purely political.  People get carried away and there's a constant monitoring of the posts and the insults of course.  No one sticks to the topic. At one time this forum allowed politics.  When the moderators were considering whether to allow politics, I voted against it.  And now we have  a friendly forum which I just love.  It's a port in a storm.


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## Pinky (May 31, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> I belong to another forum which is purely political.  People get carried away and there's a constant monitoring of the posts and the insults of course.  No one sticks to the topic. At one time this forum allowed politics.  When the moderators were considering whether to allow politics, I voted against it.  And now we have  a friendly forum which I just love.  It's a port in a storm.


Yet, thinly veiled political views filter through .. but I suppose that's to be expected.


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## JaniceM (May 31, 2020)

win231 said:


> There are three types of people who don't want to see this for the murder that it was:
> 1.  Racists.
> 2.  People who automatically defend anything a police officer does because they think if they don't, they're not supporting those who serve.
> 3.  People who are either retired police officers or who have family in law enforcement.


I'm in the third category- and I want to see this creep prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.. as well as the individuals who either backed him up or did not intervene when it was taking place.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Why don't talk about the fact that despite years of claiming progress in the war the U.S. military knew it was a lost cause? Or talk about the corrupt government in the South? Then explain the tragic and disgraceful exit out of Viet Nam proving it was a disaster from the start. Johnson, Nixon and the top bass were the cowards.


This thread is not about the Viet Nam War.  Gee, I guess that wouldn’t be the reason why.  Plus I was responding to what someone else said.  There is a military thread for those discussions, discussions of war and the like; or haven’t you noticed.  Glad I could enlighten you.

Plus, I think, technically, Viet Nam was not considered a war.  Off thread, but please tell me what branch of the military you served in during Viet Nam?  Were you drafted or did you volunteer?  What qualifies @fmdog44 to judge those who fought, were wounded, and/or died to serve our country?

Or did you just watch a movie?  Read a book?  Run to Canada?  Hide in your mom’s basement?

I volunteered and served in the WAC during Viet Nam Era.  My brother volunteered during the Viet Nam era, and later retired from the Army.  My husband volunteered and served as a combat marine IN Viet Nam, got blown off a tank, sent to HI to recover and returned to Viet Nam.

Do tell me what was your military experience?


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## Aunt Marg (May 31, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> This thread is not about the Viet Nam War.  Gee, I guess that wouldn’t be the reason why.  Plus I was responding to what someone else said.  There is a military thread for those discussions, discussions of war and the like; or haven’t you noticed.  Glad I could enlighten you.
> 
> Plus, I think, technically, Viet Nam was not considered a war.  Off thread, but please tell me what branch of the military you served in during Viet Nam?  Were you drafted or did you volunteer?  What qualifies @fmdog44 to judge those who fought, were wounded, and/or died to serve our country?
> 
> ...


You have so much pent-up anger inside, so very sad.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I'm in the third category- and I want to see this creep prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.. as well as the individuals who either backed him up or did not intervene when it was taking place.


That’s interesting and I am curious.  In our state there is a law that you must stop to help, although it’s meant for car accidents and such.  I wonder if the civilians who stood by and watched; and stood by and filmed could be facing some kind of charge.  As far as I know only one person spoke up.


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## JaniceM (May 31, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> That’s interesting and I am curious.  In our state there is a law that you must stop to help, although it’s meant for car accidents and such.  I wonder if the civilians who stood by and watched; and stood by and filmed could be facing some kind of charge.  As far as I know only one person spoke up.


I don't know if Minnesota has that law or not, but I was referring to the other officers that were present.  I read they were fired, which at least is a start.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I don't know if Minnesota has that law or not, but I was referring to the other officers that were present.  I read they were fired, which at least is a start.


Yes, I agree.  I am just curious about all the civilians who lived there, saw what happened, and are so offended they need to riot and burn their city; I am just curious why ONLY ONE PERSON, tried to intervene.

That person needs to get some kind of commendation, he certainly was brave, IMO.


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## JaniceM (May 31, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes, I agree.  I am just curious about all the civilians who lived there, saw what happened, and are so offended they need to riot and burn their city; I am just curious why ONLY ONE PERSON, tried to intervene.
> 
> That person needs to get some kind of commendation, he certainly was brave, IMO.


I agree.  

But there's the so-called bystander effect-  'somebody else should do it,' and fear.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 31, 2020)

There is a misconception that kneeling on someone's neck is some approved police procedure. It isn't. Who in the hell believes it's okay to kneel on anyone's neck. Police have been sued for putting people in head locks, never mind kneeling in their necks. There is no factual evidence that kneeling on someone's neck is an approved police procedure, anywhere.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> There is a misconception that kneeling on someone's neck is some approved police procedure. It isn't. Who in the hell believes it's okay to kneel on anyone's neck. Police have been sued for putting people in head locks, never mind kneeling in their necks. There is no factual evidence that kneeling on someone's neck is an approved police procedure, anywhere.


Yup, we should all wait for the evidence.


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## Keesha (May 31, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> There is a misconception that kneeling on someone's neck is some approved police procedure. It isn't. Who in the hell believes it's okay to kneel on anyone's neck. Police have been sued for putting people in head locks, never mind kneeling in their necks. There is no factual evidence that kneeling on someone's neck is an approved police procedure, anywhere.


Apparently it is in Minnesota 
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5274334002


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## fuzzybuddy (May 31, 2020)

Despite what's a news report says, this is the approved police procedure for anyone who is handcuffed. The entire Minnesota Police Manual is online. I could not find those "approved police procedures". And reading the manual, it is pretty much what you expected- a professional approach to police work.

*.   *Once the subject is secured, an officer shall watch for any of the following signs: (06/13/14)

·         Significant change in behavior or level consciousness;

·         Shortness of breath or irregular breathing;

·         Seizures or convulsions;

·         Complaints of serious pain or injury; and/or

·         Any other serious medical problem.
*H.    *If officers observe any serious medical issue, they shall immediately contact EMS or transport directly to a local hospital. Officers shall also notify a supervisor. (06


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## Keesha (May 31, 2020)

This is a relief. I guess I was viewing fake news. It’s good to know that this isn’t their standard police procedure because that in tself seemed excessively harsh and barbaric. It made me wonder how rough Minnesota would have to be to warrant such a procedure. What a relief.


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## win231 (May 31, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> That’s interesting and I am curious.  In our state there is a law that you must stop to help, although it’s meant for car accidents and such.  I wonder if the civilians who stood by and watched; and stood by and filmed could be facing some kind of charge.  As far as I know only one person spoke up.


Since we live in the real world on the planet earth, how 'bout getting real?
The only charge civilians would be facing if they interfered would be a criminal charge of "Interfering with an officer."  And (also in the real world on the planet earth), the idiot officers at the scene would hurt or kill anyone who interfered.  And what do you think "Officer" Chauvin would have done to someone who interfered (after making sure Mr. Floyd was dead)? 
I don't think there is ANY law in ANY state that suggests any civilian be foolish enough to do something like that.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 31, 2020)

I'm kind of familiar with the "Good Samaritan Law". It's a law that protects somebody if they aid an injured person, provided they did no wrong.  As an RN, could I be sued for not aiding some one? The answer is no. There is no law, which says a person must administer aid to anyone. I assume the same is for someone, who witnesses a crime., such as a beating.


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## win231 (May 31, 2020)

This brings to mind something that occurred during the riots that followed the ridiculous "Not Guilty" verdicts in the first trial for the 4 officers involved in the Rodney King beating.
You may recall that when the riots started, there were police officers at the scene.  They left the area when the trouble started, then some rioters pulled a truck driver (Reginald Denny) out of his truck & beat him nearly to death.
People later criticized the police for leaving the area, which allowed the attack on the truck driver and others.
The ruling surprised me.  It stated, _"Police are under NO obligation to protect anyone."_
Interesting, because on the sides of police cars, it says _"To protect And Serve."_


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## Buckeye (May 31, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Buckeye, while this might be true, *where do we draw the line*?  Any photo, video, recording, etc. might be "highly edited."  So, where else then do we get our news?  I think we have to apply our own judgement and internal filters as to what we believe. A video showing a police officer abusing someone is still showing abuse, even if it is edited.
> 
> About your comment in a different note about not liking political discussions, we do have to accept that restriction, as that is the rule in this forum. But I don't particularly agree with it. *I think civilized people can have a political discussion, even a heated one, without crossing the line into abuse. *This restriction hobbles a lot of potentially informative and fascinating discussions.  In these times of suspicion and polarization, we need more communication between people, not less.


I suppose we all have to draw that line for ourselves.  Your line will certainly be different than mine.  I assume that, in this case, the Officer we see with his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck is guilty of abuse, but I still don't know the whole story and what preceded the taped activity.  So, I will keep an open mind.  I certainly don't believe the Officer intended to kill Floyd.

Also, on any forum I've seen, political discussions rapidly devolve into insult trading and name calling, such as we see in this thread, albeit to a lesser degree.  In person, I make it a habit to avoid discussions of religion, politics, and a few other topics.


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## Aneeda72 (May 31, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> I suppose we all have to draw that line for ourselves.  Your line will certainly be different than mine.  I assume that, in this case, the Officer we see with his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck is guilty of abuse, but I still don't know the whole story and what preceded the taped activity.  So, I will keep an open mind.  I certainly don't believe the Officer intended to kill Floyd.
> 
> Also, on any forum I've seen, political discussions rapidly devolve into insult trading and name calling, such as we see in this thread, albeit to a lesser degree.  In person, I make it a habit to avoid discussions of religion, politics, and a few other topics.


I agree.  I think that’s why the manslaughter charge.  I wonder if it goes to a jury trial if the charges will change to manslaughter or accidental death.  Will have to wait and see.


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## Butterfly (May 31, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Despite what's a news report says, this is the approved police procedure for anyone who is handcuffed. The entire Minnesota Police Manual is online. I could not find those "approved police procedures". And reading the manual, it is pretty much what you expected- a professional approach to police work.
> 
> *.   *Once the subject is secured, an officer shall watch for any of the following signs: (06/13/14)
> 
> ...




Here's the part about use of neck restraints/compressions in the City of Minneapolis police policy and procedures manual.  This is from Section 5-300 Use of Force.  Note that it allows "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg ...."

*5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)

DEFINITIONS I.

Choke Hold:* Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

*Neck Restraint: *Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

*Conscious Neck Restraint:* The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

*Unconscious Neck Restraint:* The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)

*PROCEDURES/REGULATIONS II.*

The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting. (04/16/12)
The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12) 
On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
For life saving purposes, or;
On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.

Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
After Care Guidelines (04/16/12) 
After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.
An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject.


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## Butterfly (May 31, 2020)

Keesha said:


> This is a relief. I guess I was viewing fake news. It’s good to know that this isn’t their standard police procedure because that in tself seemed excessively harsh and barbaric. It made me wonder how rough Minnesota would have to be to warrant such a procedure. What a relief.



Nope, it's not fake news.  It's in the City of Minneapolis police policies and procedures manual.


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## Keesha (May 31, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Nope, it's not fake news.  It's in the City of Minneapolis police policies and procedures manual.


Thank you for checking that out. I’d heard/read  it from a variety of sources but wasn’t absolutely certain.


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## Keesha (May 31, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Here's the part about use of neck restraints/compressions in the City of Minneapolis police policy and procedures manual.  This is from Section 5-300 Use of Force.  Note that it allows "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg ...."
> 
> *5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
> 
> ...


After reading this it’s fairly clear that the police officer wasn’t using the procedure accordingly.
Floyd wasn’t resisting arrest nor was he being aggressive.  I’ve seen plenty of videos showing he was completely cooperative.

Floyd pleaded for his life 15 times stating he couldn’t breathe. Fifteen times!


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## Knight (May 31, 2020)

From the manual

 Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints.


Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). 

The video shows the police officer on the side of the neck.

Was the police officer trained & was his intent this?

Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)

I wonder what the legal system will do if the officer was trained when the manual is used for defense of the officers action.


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## Warrigal (Jun 1, 2020)

> Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck).



This technique might not cut off air from the lungs but it can cut off blood to the brain.
Hardly a non lethal option if applied for more that a couple of minutes.


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## peramangkelder (Jun 1, 2020)

Why on earth do white folks think they are better than black folks....don't get up in arms about my choice of words either
I am descended from one of the last full blood South Australian Aboriginal women born near a Government waterhole
I look just like her but my skin is not dark....I am what is known as a White Aboriginal and I am proud to be an Indigenous Aussie


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## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> Why on earth do white folks think they are better than black folks....don't get up in arms about my choice of words either
> I am descended from one of the last full blood South Australian Aboriginal women born near a Government waterhole
> I look just like her but my skin is not dark....I am what is known as a White Aboriginal and I am proud to be an Indigenous Aussie


You’re a white person asking this question?
So you must have an answer to this.
Why do you think you’re better than black people?

I’ve got black relatives and 4 bi-racial nieces & nephews whom I adore. Not all white people are racist. No you didn’t choose that word but that’s the word you meant. Some people actually believe in equality where their is no racial preference


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## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Here's the part about use of neck restraints/compressions in the City of Minneapolis police policy and procedures manual.  This is from Section 5-300 Use of Force.  Note that it allows "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg ...."
> 
> *5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
> 
> ...





  Yeah but lets not let facts get in the way .......... lets burn the town down anyway.......<sarc>


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> Yeah but lets not let facts get in the way .......... lets burn the town down anyway.......<sarc>


Yup, because money doesn’t matter, the virus doesn’t matter, all that matter is scoring a free TV and then burning the store to roast marshmallows


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## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

Here is the thread for discussing rioting and looting.

https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/riots-and-looting.49589/

This is the thread for discussing police procedure and whether it was followed correctly or not.


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## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Here is the thread for discussing rioting and looting.
> 
> https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/riots-and-looting.49589/
> 
> This is the thread for discussing police procedure and whether it was followed correctly or not.




   The two are mutually tied.......


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 1, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> You have so much pent-up anger inside, so very sad.


Not necessarily. 
I can't speak for Aneeda, as I don't know her and have only seen a few of her posts, but it's perfectly logical to have 'negative viewpoints' toward comments that hit us personally. 
And no one can use the excuse that people are heated-up because of what happened in MN, because there've been comments of that nature _before _that occurred.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Not necessarily.
> I can't speak for Aneeda, as I don't know her and have only seen a few of her posts, but it's perfectly logical to have 'negative viewpoints' toward comments that hit us personally.
> And no one can use the excuse that people are heated-up because of what happened in MN, because there've been comments of that nature _before _that occurred.


@JaniceM, I can’t speak for me either as to what Aunt Marg is saying cause I have her on ignore.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 1, 2020)

This whole "ignore" thing seems a lot like the little kid response to something they don't want to hear, when they close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears, loudly singing, "La la la, I don't hear you!" 

Why use "ignore" when you don't like what someone is saying?  Should we only be conversing with people who completely agree with us? How interesting would that be? 

Personally, I don't shut my eyes when I don't like what someone is saying. If it bothers me enough, I answer them. If I don't feel like answering them, I just skip over their note.

Sorry, I know this is off topic. But naming people that one is ignoring is also off topic. And truthfully, isn't it really a bit childiish?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 1, 2020)

Sunny said:


> This whole "ignore" thing seems a lot like the little kid response to something they don't want to hear, when they close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears, loudly singing, "La la la, I don't hear you!"
> 
> Why use "ignore" when you don't like what someone is saying?  Should we only be conversing with people who completely agree with us? How interesting would that be?
> 
> ...


Very well said, Sunny.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

Sunny said:


> This whole "ignore" thing seems a lot like the little kid response to something they don't want to hear, when they close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears, loudly singing, "La la la, I don't hear you!"
> 
> Why use "ignore" when you don't like what someone is saying?  Should we only be conversing with people who completely agree with us? How interesting would that be?
> 
> ...


It certainly is childish.  Much like a 5-year-old saying, _"I'm running away after dinner & I'm never ever coming back."_


----------



## Knight (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> Yeah but lets not let facts get in the way .......... lets burn the town down anyway.......<sarc>


According to department guidelines depending on whether or not the police officer was trained this could get uglier. If trained then unlawful arrest, reinstatement of job & any lost wages could be what the defense lawyer would seek. Then the protesting & looting will probably start again. The cost for this has probably reached the billion dollar mark +.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

Topic getting far too personal. I’m done.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> It certainly is childish.  Much like a 5-year-old saying, _"I'm running away after dinner & I'm never ever coming back."_


Yup, if this relates to me (cause I have sunny on ignore as well and cannot read her post.)  If it doesn’t relate to me, then @win231, I apologize for the assumption.  As I enjoy your posts, and appreciate but disagree with your point of view sometimes.  Sometimes I agree.

Yup, As in maybe I am in my second childhood.  But I love food, I would never run away after dinner, I’d miss dessert.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

Whether neck restraint is "Proper Police Procedure" or not isn't really the issue.
Use of a night stick is proper police procedure when warranted.  That doesn't mean 150 blows on a handcuffed suspect is OK.
Anyone, including Mr. Dirtbag police officer knows that 9 minutes of neck restraint causes death.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Knight said:


> According to department guidelines depending on whether or not the police officer was trained this could get uglier. If trained then unlawful arrest, reinstatement of job & any lost wages could be what the defense lawyer would seek. Then the protesting & looting will probably start again. The cost for this has probably reached the billion dollar mark +.


I didn’t realize that the looting had stopped.  Oh, did you mean to say when it stops it will start again?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

.............


----------



## Knight (Jun 1, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I didn’t realize that the looting had stopped.  Oh, did you mean to say when it stops it will start again?


Probably poorly worded. Looting continues but once the protesting taking place now runs it's course and what takes place when the police officer goes to trial, has received training if the defense is successful  in using the department guidelines as a defense & the officer is found not guilty of charges based on his training & department guidelines. I anticipate a recurrence of what is taking place now.

For me it's impossible to believe the man was resisting when already handcuffed. But lawyers will try their best to defend their client.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> Why on earth do white folks think they are better than black folks....don't get up in arms about my choice of words either


Why on earth would you make such a racist comment about white people and then add ‘don’t get up in arms about my choice of words?’

How does one read something so hateful and not get offended? Not ALL white people are racist and not all blacks people are racist.

What you’ve just done is stereotyped ALL white people into arrogant bigots!

Gee! Why would we be offended?
It’s pretty sad when youve got a site full of people yet we have to divide ourselves like such. I hadn’t noticed this before. It’s incredibly sad. I’m out.


----------



## Pinky (Jun 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Who on earth would you make such a racist comment about white people and then add ‘don’t get up in arms about my choice of words?’
> 
> How does one read something so hateful and not get offended? Not ALL white people are racist and not all blacks people are racist.
> 
> ...


I hope Permangelder was writing out of frustration. Perhaps she has personally been treated unfairly due to her indigenous roots. That's why I initially agreed with her.

My daughter is bi-racial, and our nephews and nieces partners are of many different races, so I don't agree that all white people are bigots.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Knight said:


> Probably poorly worded. Looting continues but once the protesting taking place now runs it's course and what takes place when the police officer goes to trial, has received training if the defense is successful  in using the department guidelines as a defense & the officer is found not guilty of charges based on his training & department guidelines. I anticipate a recurrence of what is taking place now.


I think it won‘t matter whether or not what the officer is charged, what the sentence is, what the decision is, what the jail time is or is not.  The rioting and looting is not about one mans death.  IMO, the death was just an excuse to riot and loot.  Certain People will not be satisfied.

Therefore, yes, I agree.  If the looting and rioting ever stop, it will start again.  But it might have to be different people since a lot of people weren’t wearing masks (yes, some were.)  A lot of people might be sick with the virus.  A lot of people might die from the virus.

As we are waiting for the investigation, we will just have to wait and see how exposure to the virus while rioting further effects the community.  If this were a movie, it would be science fiction.


----------



## StarSong (Jun 1, 2020)

@peramangkelder, if you don't want people getting up in arms about your choice of words, perhaps you should consider them more carefully before posting.

To address your statement - many, many white folks don't think they're better than Black, or Indigenous, or Asian, or any other people.  Indeed, there are people of every color participating in these protests.  Very heartening to see.  

These protests and riots are not only about American police brutality where African-Americans are often at the wrong end of a gun or the painful end of a nightstick, but also about economic, social, educational, housing and other disparities.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Pinky said:


> I hope Permangelder was writing out of frustration. Perhaps she has personally been treated unfairly due to her indigenous roots. That's why I initially agreed with her.
> 
> My daughter is bi-racial, and our nephews and nieces partners are of many different races, so I don't agree that all white people are bigots.


I am responding to @Pinky comment.  I don’t think she meant all white people are bigots.  I read her main point, a point I have made in the past, as skin color has little to do with race.  I have two bi-racial sons, and one bi-racial granddaughter.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

StarSong said:


> @peramangkelder, if you don't want people getting up in arms about your choice of words, perhaps you should consider them more carefully before posting.
> 
> To address your statement - many, many white folks don't think they're better than Black, or Indigenous, or Asian, or any other people.  Indeed, there are people of every color participating in these protests.  Very heartening to see.
> 
> These protests and riots are not only about American police brutality where African-Americans are often at the wrong end of a gun or the painful end of a nightstick, but also about economic, social, educational, housing and other disparities.


I agree, kind of.  While the leaders scream racial injustice, the looters, 
predominantly black and white from what I’ve seen, are certainly united in grabbing those TVs, burning buildings, throwing bricks, and defacing buildings.

The black and white communities will certainly be united in having their taxes raised, their services, reduced, and their need for medical assistance if the virus takes hold.  Although, the virus seems to be a bit of a bigot, but the white people have no control over that.  The black and WHITE community, of poor people, are also united in social, economic, educational, and housing disparities.

Unless you are claiming that poor white folk who live in the same communities and neighborhoods as poor black people have, somehow, better access to different conditions than their black neighbors.

Oh, yes, very heartening to see how well the races have come together.  Can I have an amen, praise Jesus?


----------



## StarSong (Jun 1, 2020)

If you think the experience of poor white & poor black Americans is roughly equivalent when it comes to economic opportunities, the criminal justice system, or upward mobility options, statistics will prove you are sadly mistaken.   

People who speak but aren't heard will continue to turn up their volume. Looting and burning down buildings are the equivalent of shouting into a bullhorn. It disrupts _business as usual_ and the status quo by the strong and powerful. They shrug off peaceful demonstrations without comment, but torch their buildings and loot their stores? Now you've got their attention. 

Trump hunkering down for an hour in a bunker below the east wing of the White House last night? That's some pretty powerful shouting right there. Not sure what will come of it though. 

I am not advocating for looting or rioting, merely explaining why and how people get to that point. Our country has two choices: listen and address inequities, or have the lessons repeated over and over again. 

So far, we've demonstrated ourselves to be very slow learners.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

Deleted


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

StarSong said:


> If you think the experience of poor white & poor black Americans is roughly equivalent when it comes to economic opportunities, the criminal justice system, or upward mobility options, statistics will prove you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> People who speak but aren't heard will continue to turn up their volume. Looting and burning down buildings are the equivalent of shouting into a bullhorn. It disrupts _business as usual_ and the status quo by the strong and powerful. They shrug off peaceful demonstrations without comment, but torch their buildings and loot their stores? Now you've got their attention.
> 
> ...


I did not include the criminal justice system I what I said because I have no means of comparison.  It depends on the demographics of the area.  A area with a greater white population and low black population might have more whites arrested where the opposite would be true elsewhere.

We have a high American Indian population which would effect the demographics.  (Can’t finish my thought, internet issues).


----------



## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> .............




 Thought you were done ? .........


----------



## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Why on earth would you make such a racist comment about white people and then add ‘don’t get up in arms about my choice of words?’
> 
> How does one read something so hateful and not get offended? Not ALL white people are racist and not all blacks people are racist.
> 
> ...




 Just can't stay away ?


----------



## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> Whether neck restraint is "Proper Police Procedure" or not isn't really the issue.
> Use of a night stick is proper police procedure when warranted.  That doesn't mean 150 blows on a handcuffed suspect is OK.
> Anyone, including Mr. Dirtbag police officer knows that 9 minutes of neck restraint causes death.



 Odd, in post #166 above, you refer to childish replies.......Then you post "Mr. Dirtbag police officer"

  How very mature this is indeed.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> Odd, in post #166 above, you refer to childish replies.......Then you post "Mr. Dirtbag police officer"
> 
> How very mature this is indeed.


I'd refer to any murdering scum as a "Dirtbag."  More so for a police officer who is held to a......higher standard.
How very annoying reality is for you.
How many police officers in your family?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

StarSong said:


> If you think the experience of poor white & poor black Americans is roughly equivalent when it comes to economic opportunities, the criminal justice system, or upward mobility options, statistics will prove you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> People who speak but aren't heard will continue to turn up their volume. Looting and burning down buildings are the equivalent of shouting into a bullhorn. It disrupts _business as usual_ and the status quo by the strong and powerful. They shrug off peaceful demonstrations without comment, but torch their buildings and loot their stores? Now you've got their attention.
> 
> ...


deleted, internet issues


----------



## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'd refer to any murdering scum as a "Dirtbag."  More so for a police officer who is held to a......higher standard.
> How very annoying reality is for you.
> How many police officers in your family?





  Reality is .... you do not know this man at all .

 None.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> Just can't stay away ?


Bite me !!!


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 1, 2020)

911 said:


> That’s probably the hope, but can the judge not allow that information into evidence? On the death certificate, it asks “Manner of Death” and “Cause of Death.” I this case, the manner of death would be homicide, the cause of death would be suffocation.
> 
> If cause of death is suffocation, but he had pre existing conditions that may have contributed to his death, does that also get published on the death certificate?





Knight said:


> According to department guidelines depending on whether or not the police officer was trained this could get uglier. If trained then unlawful arrest, reinstatement of job & any lost wages could be what the defense lawyer would seek. Then the protesting & looting will probably start again. The cost for this has probably reached the billion dollar mark +.




I doubt there's an iceberg's chance that there will be any reinstatement or exoneration or anything like that.  Even though the knee thing might be legal, there are conditions under which it can be legally used, safeguards for the suspect's health, etc., none of which I believe were followed by the police, especially since the pressure on his neck was maintained for considerable time after he was clearly subdued and a pulse couldn't be found.

Besides which, Mr. Floyd was detained for being suspected of passing a counterfeit bill -- not exactly a capital crime, and even if true, could have been inadvertent.

Do any of us really know whether the currency in our pockets is genuine or not?   I sure don't.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> Reality is .... you do not know this man at all .
> 
> None.


No....I didn't  know Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler, either.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 1, 2020)

I caught the dead mans brother speaking to a crowd in Minnesota, (live on UK news channels), and urging an end to the violence.

He spoke very well, and urged the crowd to seek peaceful means to bring about change, (especially voting in every election), and he said this is what he knew his brother would have wanted.

Powerful stuff.  !


----------



## Knight (Jun 1, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I doubt there's an iceberg's chance that there will be any reinstatement or exoneration or anything like that.  Even though the knee thing might be legal, there are conditions under which it can be legally used, safeguards for the suspect's health, etc., none of which I believe were followed by the police, especially since the pressure on his neck was maintained for considerable time after he was clearly subdued and a pulse couldn't be found.
> 
> Besides which, Mr. Floyd was detained for being suspected of passing a counterfeit bill -- not exactly a capital crime, and even if true, could have been inadvertent.
> 
> Do any of us really know whether the currency in our pockets is genuine or not?   I sure don't.


Employed as a bouncer indicates to me he had physical strength and or abilities that were above typical. The officer kneeling on his neck knew him. Is there video of what took place prior to being forced to the ground? In other words was he combative prior to being forced down?  Lawyers may argue that to show why use of that part of the guidelines to keep him pinned down until he passed out was within guidelines. 

I use weasel words like "could" or "may" since what took place in it's entirety  isn't known. Lawyers are supposed to provide the best defense possible so what any lawyer uses is possible. The time to render him unconscious isn't defined it only provides for the use to render unconscious. 

I agree the length of time & Floyd's pleas plus what I consider most damning is he was handcuffed so he was already subdued.


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 1, 2020)

Knight said:


> what I consider most damning is he was handcuffed so he was already subdued.


I absolutely agree!

Mr. Floyd was also voiced that he need aid and _the cop failed to render aid._

The two worked together in the same bar. The cop worked outside as an "off duty policeman" (what ever that means), and Floyd worked inside as a bouncer.

I wonder if there was some friction between the two.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Knight said:


> Employed as a bouncer indicates to me he had physical strength and or abilities that were above typical. The officer kneeling on his neck knew him. Is there video of what took place prior to being forced to the ground? In other words was he combative prior to being forced down?  Lawyers may argue that to show why use of that part of the guidelines to keep him pinned down until he passed out was within guidelines.
> 
> I use weasel words like "could" or "may" since what took place in it's entirety  isn't known. Lawyers are supposed to provide the best defense possible so what any lawyer uses is possible. The time to render him unconscious isn't defined it only provides for the use to render unconscious.
> 
> I agree the length of time & Floyd's pleas plus what I consider most damning is he was handcuffed so he was already subdued.


One news report said the paramedics were called after 2 minutes because he stated he couldn’t breathe earlier.  He stumbled and fell earlier.  I think we just have to wait and see.


----------



## Knight (Jun 1, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> I absolutely agree!
> 
> Mr. Floyd was also voiced that he need aid and _the cop failed to render aid._
> 
> ...


Kind of nice to have a civil discussion about this. Thanks


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Aneeda. If you have me on ignore could you please stop using my name and referring to me on the site. THAT isn’t ignoring me. It’s none of anyones business who your personal preferences are. That’s why they are called personal preferences. I’m ok with you having me on ignore and haven’t mentioned your name except for now since you put me on ignore. I wish you’d do the same.
> 
> And for the record I have never ever made fun of disabled people. Ever! I’ve also never supported the idea of rioting or any type of violence . EVER!
> 
> ...


She can see it.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Jun 1, 2020)

Sorry,  news stories refer to "Minnesota Police" and others report "Minneapolis Police".  Minnesota Police are not even allowed to have suspect prone on the ground, never mind kneeling on his throat. Apparently, the Minnesota Police are a professional police organization. It's quite apparent the Minneapolis aren't. I just can't believe this got past the city's lawyers. Having that kind of policy on the books just invites lawsuits. You aren't going to be able to justify such a risky, life threatening procedure in court. Choking someone into unconsciousness- nah, no problem. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.


----------



## peramangkelder (Jun 1, 2020)

Pinky said:


> I hope Permangelder was writing out of frustration. Perhaps she has personally been treated unfairly due to her indigenous roots. That's why I initially agreed with her.
> 
> My daughter is bi-racial, and our nephews and nieces partners are of many different races, so I don't agree that all white people are bigots.


Yes @Pinky I am speaking out of frustration. I have been treated unfairly and that hurts
It saddens me when people made aware of my Indigenous Ancestry physically take a step backwards....and this long before 'social distancing' was a thing
I don't suppose racial differences will change any time soon but I always have the Hope they will
My Grandfather had a lovely big photo of his Mother which he had to keep in a drawer because of the colour of her skin


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Sorry,  news stories refer to "Minnesota Police" and others report "Minneapolis Police".  Minnesota Police are not even allowed to have suspect prone on the ground, never mind kneeling on his throat. Apparently, the Minnesota Police are a professional police organization. It's quite apparent the Minneapolis aren't. I just can't believe this got past the city's lawyers. Having that kind of policy on the books just invites lawsuits. You aren't going to be able to justify such a risky, life threatening procedure in court. Choking someone into unconsciousness- nah, no problem. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.


Idk.  I think this came into being because of PCP and the inability of multiple police officers to control these individuals.  The only way to restrain PCP criminals was to “choke“ them out.  Then it seems to have been used on larger buff, Uncontrollable criminals who were not on PCP to control them.

Until, in some places, it was just used.  Because I don’t have any facts, any real information on the use and reason for the use of this method of control, I just can not make a judgement.  I am forced to wait for the judgement of the jury.

On a wrongful death suit, IMO, the family will settle out of court and we won’t ever know how much money they get or why a certain amount is chosen.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 1, 2020)

Pinky said:


> I hope Permangelder was writing out of frustration. Perhaps she has personally been treated unfairly due to her indigenous roots. That's why I initially agreed with her.
> 
> My daughter is bi-racial, and our nephews and nieces partners are of many different races, so I don't agree that all white people are bigots.


I'm making an assumption here but it is very likely that Permangelder has experienced racism from two directions. In the first place from white Australians for claiming to be Indigenous but having a fair complexion and secondly from other indigenous Australians for not being black enough. If anyone knows the ins and outs of racist attitudes, Permangelder probably knows more than most of us.

Disclaimer - I'm very fair skinned due to my ancestry but don't think of myself as white. No-one calls me Whitey constantly reminding me of my heritage. Being fair skinned has never been a hindrance to me (except in the hot sun). However, if I had been born with dark skin or Asian features, I am pretty sure I would have experienced overt and covert racism in Australia on a daily basis. Sometimes it is delivered as a joke, sometimes as an insult but more often as a denial of opportunity and other forms of discrimination.


----------



## Camper6 (Jun 1, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> There is a misconception that kneeling on someone's neck is some approved police procedure. It isn't. Who in the hell believes it's okay to kneel on anyone's neck. Police have been sued for putting people in head locks, never mind kneeling in their necks. There is no factual evidence that kneeling on someone's neck is an approved police procedure, anywhere.


You are misinformed about the procedure.


----------



## peramangkelder (Jun 1, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> I'm making an assumption here but it is very likely that Permangelder has experienced racism from two directions. In the first place from white Australians for claiming to be Indigenous but having a fair complexion and secondly from other indigenous Australians for not being black enough. If anyone knows the ins and outs of racist attitudes, Permangelder probably knows more than most of us.
> 
> Disclaimer - I'm very fair skinned due to my ancestry but don't think of myself as white. No-one calls me Whitey constantly reminding me of my heritage. Being fair skinned has never been a hindrance to me (except in the hot sun). However, if I had been born with dark skin or Asian features, I am pretty sure I would have experienced overt and covert racism in Australia on a daily basis. Sometimes it is delivered as a joke, sometimes as an insult but more often as a denial of opportunity and other forms of discrimination.


How right you are @Warrigal


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Jun 1, 2020)

Considering the medical complications, death being one of them, why any jackass would kneel on someones throat is unbelievable. If the cops have been using this so called "procedure' for any length of time, then this is not the first death to occur.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Considering the medical complications, death being one of them, why any jackass would kneel on someones throat is unbelievable. If the cops have been using this so called "procedure' for any length of time, then this is not the first death to occur.


Some police officers are drawn to a career in law enforcement because they crave power & control & enjoy hurting people.  A racist cop can obviously choose who he wants to hurt, as former LAPD detective Mark Fuhrman explained on tape:  _"We were so tight, we knew we could get away with anything; we have each other's backs.  We pulled people over for DWB - (Driving While Black)."_
And what other profession allows someone to commit murder & possibly get away with it?  And also be looked up to as a hero.

I was a shooting instructor for several years & also worked in retail firearms sales.  Many of our customers were cops; we supplied them with most of their equipment.  The conversations I heard when cops would discuss some of their arrests would surprise most.  One in particular:
_"There's nothin' better than pulling a suspect out of my car, shoving my baton in his gut & watching him puke out everything he ate that day."_
I couldn't help but notice the look of pure ecstasy on his face as he described it.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> Some police officers are drawn to a career in law enforcement because they crave power & control & enjoy hurting people.  A racist cop can obviously choose who he wants to hurt, as former LAPD detective Mark Fuhrman explained on tape:  _"We were so tight, we knew we could get away with anything; we have each other's backs.  We pulled people over for DWB - (Driving While Black)."_
> And what other profession allows someone to commit murder & possibly get away with it?  And also be looked up to as a hero.
> 
> I was a shooting instructor for several years & also worked in retail firearms sales.  Many of our customers were cops; we supplied them with most of their equipment.  The conversations I heard when cops would discuss some of their arrests would surprise most.  One in particular:
> ...


Anyone watching CNN?  This discussion is over IMO.  We have worst things to worry about.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 1, 2020)

The 1807 law to mobilize the US. military has been invoked.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> If that is department procedure ? And he chose to use it ? How can there be criminal charges ?


Seriously rpg??!!  Would you want there to be charges if it was your son or grandson? Or would it be okay with you? Clearly if it's allowed, which it shouldn't be (the mayor denounced that technique BTW), the it certainly shouldn't be until it causes death.  You say IF that was the cause?!  He kneeled on Mr. Floyd's neck for nearly 9 minutes. Yet you doubt that caused his death?!! SMDH!!!


----------



## rgp (Jun 1, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Seriously rpg??!!  Would you want there to be charges if it was your son or grandson? Or would it be okay with you? Clearly if it's allowed, which it shouldn't be (the mayor denounced that technique BTW), the it certainly shouldn't be until it causes death.  You say IF that was the cause?!  He kneeled on Mr. Floyd's neck for nearly 9 minutes. Yet you doubt that caused his death?!! SMDH!!!




I said .... if you would read before replying ..... I don't know what caused his death. And the actual cause / official cause has not been announced as yet.

And the neck maneuver & use of it was outlined earlier , in post #150 here by another member.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 1, 2020)

The cause of death has been announced. Early this evening, the autopsy report came back.

Death was caused entirely, and solely, by asphyxiation, due to the knee on the throat. There was nothing wrong with his heart or lungs, and he did not hit his head on anything.  This declaration was positive and official. The authorities went out of their way to explain that those other "causes" of death had been ruled out.

It will probably be in your paper tomorrow morning.


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

A second (unbiased) autopsy revealed that the cause of death was Asphyxia, which is defined below:
Definition of asphyxiation. : *deprivation of oxygen* that can result in unconsciousness and often death : an act of asphyxiating a person or animal or a state of asphyxia: suffocation.
(as if we needed that).


----------



## win231 (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> I said .... if you would read before replying ..... I don't know what caused his death. And the actual cause / official cause has not been announced as yet.
> 
> And the neck maneuver & use of it was outlined earlier , in post #150 here by another member.


Now, you know.  Still in denial?
None so blind as he who doesn't want to see.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 1, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> The 1807 law to mobilize the US. military has been invoked.



What I just read said it hasn't been invoked yet, but there have been threats to do so.


----------



## Knight (Jun 1, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Considering the medical complications, death being one of them, why any jackass would kneel on someones throat is unbelievable. If the cops have been using this so called "procedure' for any length of time, then this is not the first death to occur.


Kneeling was on his neck not his throat  over the carotid artery, shutting off the blood supply to the brain. There have been numerous posts about the manual that allows for hand or knee on the neck. On the throat is not allowed. No matter how the death occurred I think everyone is in agreement it was wrong. Early on I posted that the officer on his torso could contribute to his inability to breathe.


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## Keesha (Jun 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> I said .... if you would read before replying ..... I don't know what caused his death. And the actual cause / official cause has not been announced as yet.
> 
> And the neck maneuver & use of it was outlined earlier , in post #150 here by another member.


https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867219130/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-homicide-by-asphyxia


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## grahamg (Jun 2, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Considering the medical complications, death being one of them, why any jackass would kneel on someones throat is unbelievable. If the cops have been using this so called "procedure' for any length of time, then this is not the first death to occur.


Terence Lloyd is the brother of the dead man who spoke so forcefully and sensibly yesterday, urging restraint we all hope will be heard. I'm bemused that the victim knew or worked with the police officer responsible for his death, and can't begin to imagine what could have happened to make the things you describe occur?


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## Butterfly (Jun 2, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The cause of death has been announced. Early this evening, the autopsy report came back.
> 
> Death was caused entirely, and solely, by asphyxiation, due to the knee on the throat. There was nothing wrong with his heart or lungs, and he did not hit his head on anything.  This declaration was positive and official. The authorities went out of their way to explain that those other "causes" of death had been ruled out.
> 
> It will probably be in your paper tomorrow morning.



This is the independent autopsy by Dr. Baden.  The medical examiner's is different in its statement of the actual cause of Mr. Floyd's death, but both say the manner of death was homicide.

Dr. Baden's autopsy says Mr. Floyd died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure" when his neck and back were compressed by police officers and this pressure cut off blood flow to his brain.

The Medical Examiner's autopsy says the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression," which means his heart stopped.  The medical examiner didn't mention asphyxiation.

So the medical examiner's autopsy says heart disease was an issue; Dr. Baden didn't find that.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 2, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> This is the independent autopsy by Dr. Baden.  The medical examiner's is different in its statement of the actual cause of Mr. Floyd's death, but both say the manner of death was homicide.
> 
> Dr. Baden's autopsy says Mr. Floyd died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure" when his neck and back were compressed by police officers and this pressure cut off blood flow to his brain.
> 
> ...


Well, even I can agree, now that the autopsies are done, that the man was killed.  I don’t think it’s unexpected that the autopsies differ.  I still think the choice, when it goes to trial, will be between manslaughter and accidental death.  But how does it go to a jury trial, where will they find the people for the jury?


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## rgp (Jun 2, 2020)

win231 said:


> Now, you know.  Still in denial?
> None so blind as he who doesn't want to see.




 No I do not know.

 Did you read the link provided by Keesha in post 215 ? 

 There are still conflicting reports from the family hired autopsy [not official] and the county medical examiner [official]  I'll wait for the official medical examiners report, expected in about two weeks.

You just can't drop the snide remarks can you ?..........pathetic.


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## rgp (Jun 2, 2020)

Keesha said:


> https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867219130/george-floyd-independent-autopsy-homicide-by-asphyxia




  Thank you.


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## Keesha (Jun 2, 2020)

rgp said:


> Thank you.


You’re very welcome.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 2, 2020)

Who could have ever predicted that kneeling on someone's throat could lead to death? After all, kneeling on the neck only restricts, or cuts off all together the blood flow through the carotid arteries. When that happens, people become unconscious.  That's because the brain is no longer oxygenated, and starts to die. Brain death occurs in about 6 minutes. DUH!! And kneeling on someone's throat is akin to inducing a heart attack. But a well trained police officer, who is struggling with another person, is quite mindful of the amount of force he's applying, the exact amount of time he's applying the force, and monitoring the suspects vital signs, his condition, his breathing, his level of consciousness, his pupil dilation, the color of his skin., etc., etc., etc. It is amazing that doctors,  nurses, and medical technicians in a modern, well equipped, well trained medical center have difficulty maintaining life when carotid arterial blood flow is altered, but a cop on a busy street has no problem.
There's nothing wrong with this "police procedure", ya know, outside of killing people.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 2, 2020)

BTW, as to autopsy reports. There is a protocol for listing "cause of death". While I don't know anything about it, that protocol, at times, may seem contrary, especially when there is multiple factors causing a death. I know that one autopsy can say X was the cause of death, and another say Y is. But both may be right. (At the same time, a guy is shot in the heart, and stabbed in the heart, which was THE cause of death? There can only  be one "cause of death".)  A lay person can misinterpret things in this very legalistic document.


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## JaniceM (Jun 3, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> "Cowards"? Anything but in my eyes.


I think your "eyes" would have a different view if you'd had a brother serving in the war.. 

And similarly, individuals who take the approach 'all cops are bad, or at least cover for those who are' would see it differently if one of their kids was out there in the middle of it. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion..  but those of us who've had loved ones in harm's way-  past or present- have a much more personal stake in it than simply opinions.


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## Sunny (Jun 3, 2020)

Well, all the knee-jerk defense of this murderer in a police uniform seems to have quieted down. Sometimes, video technology can be a good thing!


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## win231 (Jun 3, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I think your "eyes" would have a different view if you'd had a brother serving in the war..
> 
> And similarly, individuals who take the approach 'all cops are bad, or at least cover for those who are' would see it differently if one of their kids was out there in the middle of it.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion..  but those of us who've had loved ones in harm's way-  past or present- have a much more personal stake in it than simply opinions.


"Opinion?"  This has nothing to do with opinion.  These are facts.  Unlike people, videos don't lie & are not biased.  And, unlike that river in Egypt, videos are not in denial.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> "Opinion?"  This has nothing to do with opinion.  These are facts.  Unlike people, videos don't lie & are not biased.  And, unlike that river in Egypt, videos are not in denial.


Actually, videos can be doctored and, therefore, videos can lie.


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## JaniceM (Jun 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> "Opinion?"  This has nothing to do with opinion.  These are facts.  Unlike people, videos don't lie & are not biased.  And, unlike that river in Egypt, videos are not in denial.


I recall your previous posts..  anti-military, anti-police, anti-families-thereof...  There are only a few states in your way if you'd like to make a run to Canada.....


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## win231 (Jun 3, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I recall your previous posts..  anti-military, anti-police, anti-families-thereof...  There are only a few states in your way if you'd like to make a run to Canada.....


I'm just anti corruption & anti abuse of power.  Telling a truth you would rather not hear = anti in your world.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm just anti corruption & anti abuse of power.  Telling a truth you would rather not hear = anti in your world.


Everyone has their own truth, whether is a right truth or a wrong truth.


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## Gaer (Jun 3, 2020)

rgp said:


> I said .... if you would read before replying ..... I don't know what caused his death. And the actual cause / official cause has not been announced as yet.
> 
> And the neck maneuver & use of it was outlined earlier , in post #150 here by another member.


You have responded eloquently to this threads attacks.  I applaud your courage.


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## Sunny (Jun 3, 2020)

> I agree. All cops should resign immediately. The world would be a better and safer place.



In case you're still here, 911, I would agree completely with your statement above, with the addition of one word:

All psychopathic cops should resign immediately.  The world would be a better and safer place.


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## win231 (Jun 3, 2020)

Sunny said:


> In case you're still here, 911, I would agree completely with your statement above, with the addition of one word:
> 
> All psychopathic cops should resign immediately.  The world would be a better and safer place.


Couldn't have said it better.
And officer 911 is still here; just pretending he's not.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> Couldn't have said it better.
> And officer 911 is still here; just pretending he's not.


911 is not pretending he is not here.  Unlike a lot of us he actually has stuff to do.  But, just so you know in case you missed it, I am pretending that some people are not here.  That’s what the ignore button is for.


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## rgp (Jun 3, 2020)

Gaer said:


> You have responded eloquently to this threads attacks.  I applaud your courage.




 Thank you .......


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## win231 (Jun 3, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Anyone watching CNN?  This discussion is over IMO.  We have worst things to worry about.


Then feel free not to participate.


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## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> Then feel free not to participate.


But @win231, I would miss “discussing“ this with you too much too not participate.


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## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> But @win231, I would miss “discussing“ this with you too much too not participate.


Well, that's what we call a real dilemma.


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## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Here's the part about use of neck restraints/compressions in the City of Minneapolis police policy and procedures manual.  This is from Section 5-300 Use of Force.  Note that it allows "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg ...."
> 
> *5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
> 
> ...


In the manual it states that IF the suspect is  resisting arrest then any of these holds can be applied. The choke hold and neck restraints are saved as deadly restraints meant only for passive aggressive to the most aggressive.

Choke hold is for the most aggressive suspects who are violently resisting arrest.

Neck Restraint is for the passive aggressive and is done by compressing both sides of the neck WITHOUT APPLYING DIRECT PRESSURE to the TRACHEA!

This restraint is used to control a conscious subject  but NOT RENDER THEM UNCONSCIOUS by applying light to moderate pressure.

It gives clear instructions on when to use them and how to use them which was completely ignored.

The subject didn’t resist arrest in the least and was consistently show to show compliance and respect right to his very last dying breathe while he said for the 15th time, “I can’t breathe officer.”

After any of these neck holds are used the officer using such force needs to carefully monitor the subject.

Light to moderate pressure at the sides of his neck NOT KNEELING on his neck! If the subject keeps repeating that they can’t breathe, then it’s REALLY CLEAR that it wasn’t ‘light to moderate’ pressure.

If this technique must be used then the subject needs to be monitored.
Did anyone see or hear any monitoring of the police officer?
Did anyone witness any human concern whatsoever about this black man’s very life?

NO!!! There was ZERO concern.
This man was NOT following procedure. OVER  EIGHT MINUTES passed  by and the ONLY look on this police officers face was one of sheer arrogant pride like one of those trophy hunters who just killed their prey.

Like I mentioned in another post, if anyone sees justifiable reason why this man was murdered in cold blood by those who serve and protect, then they have their own personally AXE to GRIND.
Note: this was meant for another thread.


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## Ken N Tx (Jun 5, 2020)




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## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

Hmmm, I wonder which side Forrest Gump would have been on in this case.


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## terry123 (Jun 5, 2020)

As I have said before my brother retired from the Miami Dade force and said once he was down he should have been brought to his feet, cuffed and walked to a police car.  In his mind it was murder in every sense of the word. Again, just mine and baby brother's opinion!


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 5, 2020)

I'm a retired Registered Nurse. I'm not a medical expert. But from the little I do know, blocking a carotid artery is an extremely dangerous thing to do.This is not like kneeling on someone's arm. Bloods clots can form and travel  straitgh to the brain.  If they block a smaller artery, they will kill all the brain tissue serviced by that artery. Of course, this results in loss of brain function. You block both carotid arteries, you have brain death- and the person isn't far behind in the dying. Also blocking the arteries causes huge fluctuations in blood pressure,  again brain devastation. The list of complications from kneeling on someone's throat goes on and on.  The throat is an extremely vulnerable  area. Why do you think slashing someone's neck results in death? You are either going to kill somebody, or you're going to wind up with a vegetable. By police continuing to use that technique is an admission of gross stupidity, as to the lethality, and potential harm that technique can cause. Since the danger of that technique is known, using it is also an admission of the callous attitude the police have to some human life.


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