# God has a plan. An observation and a question.



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.  
A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?

How do you feel about the title "God has a plan"? And do you think His plan should be shared with us so we could cope better with life's slings and arrows?


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jun 13, 2022)

IMO if God has a plan it would defeat his purpose to share it with us.

God gave us everything we need, then stepped back to see if we are able to understand and use his gifts in ways that please and honor him.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

op: "God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.  
A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?

How do you feel about the title "God has a plan"? And do you think His plan should be shared with us so we could cope better with life's slings and arrows? "

You no doubt have read a lot of religious posts, threads, news, history and so on.
Since most of all that's ever written about anything is , well,  not only not helpful,  but comes from and leads to much harm, 
it is very difficult for anyone to learn the truth about the Creator's Plan.


----------



## Lavinia (Jun 13, 2022)

I think the Earth has a destiny just as we as individuals do. Whether this is a plan set out by a higher consciousness, I have no idea. It does seem that whenever people try to change things, they come up against a brick wall as though they are interfering with nature.
I am a 'medium' (dead people speak to me) and more than one has said 'I'm glad I left when I did because I don't want to be part of what is going to happen next in the world'. They have elaborated on that but I'm not sure I should repeat it.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

According to YHVH,  The Creator,  for Jews and Christians,  and according to all Scripture, 
whenever it appears someone 'dead' is 'brought up' or talked to,  it is a demon,  not a person.
Demons love to talk as much as they can with anyone,  to keep them,  
and this is much more common than The Creator Speaking to anyone,  since fewer people by far seek The Creator.


----------



## Tish (Jun 13, 2022)

I will never trash another person's beliefs, it is what gets them through the tough times,
I may not agree with their beliefs but I won't trash them.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

Tish said:


> I will never trash another person's beliefs, it is what gets them through the tough times,
> I may not agree with their beliefs but I won't trash them.


Your bias is showing.  If you learn historically and actually what has caused so many "tough times",  you will be finding helpful ways to let people know how to avoid much greater damage and destruction in the future,  including a lot of pain and suffering that is potentially unnecessary for anyone or everyone related .  

Oh,  yes,  btw,  there is guaranteed pain and suffering for anyone pursuing the truth in this world,  but along with all that is free and immeasurable peace and joy through everything, along with "the solution" finally.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> I think the Earth has a destiny just as we as individuals do. Whether this is a plan set out by a higher consciousness, I have no idea. It does seem that whenever people try to change things, they come up against a brick wall as though they are interfering with nature.
> I am a 'medium' (dead people speak to me) and more than one has said 'I'm glad I left when I did because I don't want to be part of what is going to happen next in the world'. They have elaborated on that but I'm not sure I should repeat it.


Oh please elaborate...


----------



## Lee (Jun 13, 2022)

A nun said those words to me when I was in the hospital chapel after getting the news that my husband could lose both legs. Fortunately God's plan was a partial foot amputation. A skilled surgeon guided perhaps with God's plan.

I was in a panic, homeless except for a summer trailer, it was September and the park where the trailer was located was closing in six weeks. Never realized that apartments were as scarce as hens teeth.  Six weeks prior I was feeling jubilant, my plan was working out great.....then the crash to reality.

Sometimes God's plan is not what you planned. That is when you have to at least try to make God's plan work and change the plan you had in mind.

I did, I had too and things are OK today.

And I have another plan in mind now.....I keep telling God to work with me


----------



## Pepper (Jun 13, 2022)

There is no plan.  There is no god.


----------



## Judycat (Jun 13, 2022)

I think a lot slips by God as normal worldly interaction. Blah. Don't preach. He knows what I'm talking about.


----------



## Mizmo (Jun 13, 2022)

I have to wonder what plan your god has for me when he/she/it puts me through six rounds of vicious chemotherapy  at the age of 84 and four years later  amputates my cancerous thumb.  How do I make that plan work.
.....definitely not my plan.


----------



## Chet (Jun 13, 2022)

So why does god plan pain and suffering in people's lives? Does he enjoy watching us squirm?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
> We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.
> A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
> What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?
> ...


This reminded me of all the times in my life when someone said, "God never gives you more to cope with than you can bear.  And I would reply, "then I've been terribly over-estimated."

The bible believers will say all the plans are there, clear as day.  Since I'm not one of them, I still repeat that I could not respect a god that stood back and watched atrocities unfold.  That's not a plan.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> This reminded me of all the times in my life when someone said,* "God never gives you more to cope with than you can bear.  And I would reply, "then I've been terribly over-estimated."
> *


yep I agree..by that token, no-one would be dead from pain the body couldn't  cope with  any more... 

My mum would still be alive.. and not dead at 39 from a prescription meds overdose to escape the pain... my nephew and niece would both be alive.. and not dead at 4 months, and 15 years old.. My daughters' step-brother wouldn't have hung himself because of emotional pain... so many people would be alive because God never gave them more pain than they could cope with while suffering life limiting illness.. ( oh wait, nope they're dead)..

It's all BS to fit in with the narrative isn't it ?


----------



## Mizmo (Jun 13, 2022)

Well right now my PLAN is to visit the coffee shop
anyone care to join me...ttfn


----------



## Sunny (Jun 13, 2022)

Chet said:


> So why does god plan pain and suffering in people's lives? Does he enjoy watching us squirm?


The human mind is an incredible piece of work, isn't it?  When things go well for us, we give all kinds of credit, thanks, and praise to the imaginary deity we've been told we are commanded to believe in  When things don't go so well for us, well, "It's part of God's plan."  So the true believers have conjured up a way for everything to be OK with us, no matter what it is.

In other words, stop thinking, folks. Everything is just wonderful, because it's part of God's plan.

I think all of this goes back to childhood imprinting. How does that saying go, about giving me the child until he is 7, etc.? It apparently works. With  some of us, anyway.

And Lavinia, your conversations with dead people are very interesting. For some reason, The Addams Family popped into my head. Yikes.


----------



## Lavinia (Jun 13, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> Oh please elaborate...


Basically, history will repeat itself because nations have not learned the lessons of the past. At present, there are too many idealists and not enough realists.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Basically, history will repeat itself because nations have not learned the lessons of the past. At present, there are too many idealists and not enough realists.


well I know that's going too happen because it's what's happened since the world began, I'm a total realist ... don't they tell you anything we don't already know ?


----------



## C50 (Jun 13, 2022)

Life has no plan unless you make one, but that's coming from and atheist.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

I'm genuinely interested in anyone who thinks they can communicate with the dead...  I'd love to believe it's possible, but from what I've seen thus far.. it doesn't seem to be, because the world is full of charlatans and deceivers.., so I'm open to Lavinia, telling us something we don't know..that only those who are already gone, could know..


----------



## Della (Jun 13, 2022)

Well, I guess I'm a Bible believer although not an inerrantist. Flawed humans have had a hand in all the translations. 

I'm not a big believer in a plan.  I believe God made us and then gave us freewill to mess up.  I think it's up to us to drive safely and not count on Jesus taking the wheel when we head over that cliff.

  We can decide to roast a tobacco leaf, then put it in a pipe and smoke it.  Who gave us the cancer?  We can innocently conceive a child, do everything right while we're pregnant and the child be born with a terrible birth defect.  Was it God's plan or a genetic mutation developed in some people over hundred's of years?

What's the use in religion then?  Why pray to a God who wont keep your loved ones from dying or you from losing a leg?  I don't know about others, but I pray because God helps me through my mind.  Prayer helps me _deal_ with all this mess while it's going on, relieving panic and easing grief.  I also get practical help through prayer when answers come to me shortly after praying. My religion gives me hope that when this relatively short spell on earth is over I'll go to a better place.

Other people will tell you about God performing miracles in their life, and maybe I've had some miracles and don't recognize them.  Who knows?


Sunny said:


> I think all of this goes back to childhood imprinting. How does that saying go, about giving me the child until he is 7, etc.?



My beliefs were imprinted on me when I was preschool age, but not through my parents or their arty friends, who were not churchy people. I had some spiritual experiences when I was alone in the woods around our house.  My family thought I was quite the odd little duck taking my rocking chair into the trees to pray.


----------



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> Well right now my PLAN is to visit the coffee shop
> anyone care to join me...ttfn
> View attachment 225055





hollydolly said:


> yep I agree..by that token, no-one would be dead from pain the body couldn't  cope with  any more...
> 
> My mum would still be alive.. and not dead at 39 from a prescription meds overdose to escape the pain... my nephew and niece would both be alive.. and not dead at 4 months, and 15 years old.. My daughters' step-brother wouldn't have hung himself because of emotional pain... so many people would be alive because God never gave them more pain than they could cope with while suffering life limiting illness.. ( oh wait, nope they're dead)..
> 
> It's all BS to fit in with the narrative isn't it ?


I agree @hollydolly. When you've had family/friends who have died horribly painful deaths or from suicide, or both, you've got to think something is terribly wrong with this plan, or there is no plan at all, or if there is a plan tell me what it is so I can do what I can do to make it a reality. It's the SILENCE that kills and the abandonment one feels at such times.


----------



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO if God has a plan it would defeat his purpose to share it with us.
> 
> God gave us everything we need, then stepped back to see if we are able to understand and use his gifts in ways that please and honor him.


OK. What is His purpose? I believe. I've read the bible cover to cover many times, but I don't see solutions or plans there. I feel abandoned, so shed some light if you can.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> OK. What is His purpose? I believe. I've read the bible cover to cover many times, but I don't see solutions or plans there. I feel abandoned, so shed some light if you can.


perhaps God likes playing Games... Guess your  life plan... oh nope, you lose...


----------



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

To explain further my dad died of cancer after a catastrophic life event. He had a heart in the first year and got cancer and died within six months afterwards. He was so weak when he was dying I had to tie his shoes for him.  My best friend died of breast cancer after years of treatments and remissions. She was the nicest person I ever knew. I've also had more than one friend who commit suicide in very violent ways and a beloved family member committed suicide also. It's tough to believe there is a plan that includes death by agony or such fear that self destruction seems preferable to facing that fear.


----------



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> perhaps God likes playing Games... Guess your  life plan... oh nope, you lose...


I never do that anymore Hols. When people ask me where I see myself in five years or what my five year plan is I just tell them I don't do that anymore. Life is too unpredictable.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> OK. What is His purpose? I believe. I've read the bible cover to cover many times, but I don't see solutions or plans there. I feel abandoned, so shed some light if you can.


I've never read the Bible cover to cover nor have I spent much time in church.

I doubt that anything I can say about my relationship with God will help you with yours. 

I guess it's up to each of us to form our own relationship with God or go it alone.

Good luck.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

Della said:


> Well, I guess I'm a Bible believer although not an inerrantist. Flawed humans have had a hand in all the translations.
> 
> I'm not a big believer in a plan.  I believe God made us and then gave us freewill to mess up.  I think it's up to us to drive safely and not count on Jesus taking the wheel when we head over that cliff.
> 
> ...


Whatever helps you navigate through life's trials can be a good thing.  I prefer to see people use religious beliefs as opposed to chemical escapes.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> I think the Earth has a destiny just as we as individuals do. Whether this is a plan set out by a higher consciousness, I have no idea. It does seem that whenever people try to change things, they come up against a brick wall as though they are interfering with nature.
> I am a 'medium' (dead people speak to me) and more than one has said 'I'm glad I left when I did because I don't want to be part of what is going to happen next in the world'. They have elaborated on that but I'm not sure I should repeat it.


I need a laugh, please elaborate


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Basically, history will repeat itself because nations have not learned the lessons of the past. At present, there are too many idealists and not enough realists.


I don't need dead people to tell me that


----------



## Gaer (Jun 13, 2022)

I am the little girl in the classroom jumping up and down with her hand in the air, screaming,
"I KNOW!  I KNOW!  I KNOW!"
and
I DO KNOW!
I DO!
But no one gives worth to  my words.
I'm not going to change Pepper's opinion that there is no God.
Those others of limited spirituality, set in their opinions of blaming God
for every thing that happens on this lowly Earth; they give my words no credence.
If they heard the truth, they would dismiss it as untruth.
They will find the truth of things in their own way, in their own time.
With so many agnostics, atheists, disbelievers in any celestial entities on this forum,
it's a waste of words to tell the sacred messages I've been given by the Holy Angels.

(I already know the names of the people who will click the emoji "haha".)


----------



## Knight (Jun 13, 2022)

How do you feel about the title "God has a plan"? 

I think that as a saying it is faith based. Faith that a better life is ahead those thousands migrating across Mexico now might have believe "God has a plan". 


And do you think His plan should be shared with us so we could cope better with life's slings and arrows?

That would be helpful especially if your child was born physically or mentally challenged.

Then what the plan is for those thousands that are housed, fed, & cared for is.


----------



## David777 (Jun 13, 2022)

Maybe religious dogma has it wrong and rather God's plan since he gave us his precious son Jesus as a sacrifice, has been to guide us through moral values Jesus taught, leaving further work to Peter and his church along with the Holy Spirit, so that we humans can value and help each other ourselves instead of him directly intervening.  And as a reward, has offered possible eternal life, arguably the most valuable gift imaginable for otherwise loving mortal organic intelligent creatures in his universe.  

As I've speculated several times here on this board, I expect God and his angels are a race of ancient UIEs without unlimited omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence powers that have existed before the Earth and our solar system existed.  Although I've also stated, the Bible is not inerrant, infallible, I do expect some is indeed from those powers including these verses from Jesus as a pre-human AI like entity that in a way primitives might understand points to such engineering.

Proverbs 8:22>30
_“The LORD created me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
“From eternity I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
“When there were no ocean depths, I was born,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
“Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was born;
While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
“When He established the heavens, I was there;
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
When He set a boundary for the sea
So that the water would not violate His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,_


----------



## C50 (Jun 13, 2022)

I have a religious friend and we have debated this topic for years.  I always respect and truly want to understand his beliefs, yet he feels sorry for me and my lack of faith.

We have talked of misery in the world and he always mentions things like "we never know God's plans".  In his view God shepards the human race,  and does what is necessary to protect the human race in toltallity.  Just like a Shepard will destroy a sick sheep so it doesn't infect the flock God does the same.  My friend says God looks out over all of time, so his plan when he takes what appears to be an innocent life may in reality be a plan for hundreds of years in the future, as in ending a life now to prevent something a descendent will do later.

The other thing I have been told is we (humans) have a different perspective of time than God.  When I person fights cancer for ten years to us that is horrible,  but to God ten years is not even a measurable spec or time.

In the end I think people want to believe there's more, heck many people NEED to believe there's more.  

Personally I believe we are here and then one day we're not.


----------



## Grampa Don (Jun 13, 2022)

Seeing God's plan is like seeing the man in the moon.  It takes some imagination.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

Lee said:


> A nun said those words to me when I was in the hospital chapel after getting the news that my husband could lose both legs. Fortunately God's plan was a partial foot amputation. A skilled surgeon guided perhaps with God's plan.
> 
> I was in a panic, homeless except for a summer trailer, it was September and the park where the trailer was located was closing in six weeks. Never realized that apartments were as scarce as hens teeth.  Six weeks prior I was feeling jubilant, my plan was working out great.....then the crash to reality.
> 
> ...


The Creator's Plans and Purposes are Perfect,  yes,  caring for us who trust Him,  and are as high above our (man's) plans or thoughts as heaven is above the earth.  Always has been, and always will beeeeee ...     Praise Him to the Highest, Blessed Be His Set Apart (Holy) Name.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

C50 said:


> I have a religious friend and we have debated this topic for years. I always respect and truly want to understand his beliefs, yet he feels sorry for me and my lack of faith.
> 
> We have talked of misery in the world and he always mentions things like "we never know God's plans".


The Creator has revealed His Plans to men,  long ago,  and daily.   So some of your 'religious friend's' ideas might not yet be complete.



C50 said:


> Personally I believe we are here and then one day we're not.


That's true for believers and for unbelievers, both.


C50 said:


> In the end I think people want to believe there's more, heck many people NEED to believe there's more.


There is more than anyone can even imagine in their wildest dreams or hopes,  even the faithful believers know only a fraction....


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> I never do that anymore Hols. When people ask me where I see myself in five years or what my five year plan is I just tell them I don't do that anymore. Life is too unpredictable.


precisely, we can't plan, because we have no idea how our lives are supposed to be planned according to '' gods law'' ...


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> To explain further my dad died of cancer after a catastrophic life event. He had a heart in the first year and got cancer and died within six months afterwards. He was so weak when he was dying I had to tie his shoes for him.  My best friend died of breast cancer after years of treatments and remissions. She was the nicest person I ever knew. I've also had more than one friend who commit suicide in very violent ways and a beloved family member committed suicide also. It's tough to believe there is a plan that includes death by agony or such fear that self destruction seems preferable to facing that fear.


it just makes a nonsense out of the oft repeated phrase about God not giving you more than you can cope with... but did you know that 'God' never said any such thing in the Bible... it was taken out of context  from Corinthians.. 10.13


_ “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

 This passage is specifically about temptation.

God does test us (James 1:2-4), but he doesn’t tempt us to sin (James 1:13). Temptation comes from Satan (1 Thessalonians 3:5, 1 Peter 5:8-9, Ephesians 6:11) & when we are carried away by our own lusts (James 1:14-15).

God does not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle - because he provides us with a way out. Our way out is through prayer (Matthew 26:41) & scripture (Hebrews 4:12). 

 If God didn’t give us more than we could handle, we would never need him._

So, people with blind faith believe that they'll never suffer more than they can cope with because God will ensure they  are strong enough to bear their burdens ... believing that this is stated in the Bible , and it never was...


----------



## Mizmo (Jun 13, 2022)

How can anyone please, worship,* honour* some entity that allows such horrors as is happening now in the world to innocent people?
I can never get a believable answer to that in discussions with other people when the subject comes up.
I need more tangible proof which never seems to be available. If it ever does I will shout hallelujah with everyone else.
Telling all the good things that happen just doesn't do it for me.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Homo Sapiens is the most dangerous predator and most invasive species that this poor planet has ever seen.  After destroying our nearest competitors, other hominid species, up to 10,000 years ago, we are now engaged in mass extinction of other life and destruction of the environment on a massive basis.  If you think this is part of God's master plan, you are sorely mistaken.  Instead of God's finest creation (as we have anointed ourselves), we are God's biggest mistake.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> Homo Sapiens is the most dangerous predator and most invasive species that this poor planet has ever seen.  After destroying our nearest competitors, other hominid species, up to 10,000 years ago, we are now engaged in mass extinction of other life and destruction of the environment on a massive basis.  If you think this is part of God's master plan, you are sorely mistaken.  Instead of God's finest creation (as we have anointed ourselves), we are God's biggest mistake.


All was going exactly to plan until the first man ate "the forbidden fruit."

We aren't the most dangerous predators nor the most invasive species on the planet. Fortunately, we have "dominion" over every other species, or how would we have survived this long?


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> All was going exactly to plan until the first man ate "the forbidden fruit."
> 
> We aren't the most dangerous predators nor the most invasive species on the planet. Fortunately, we have "dominion" over every other species, or how would we have survived this long?


We have survived so long because of our large forebrain, through evolution, which took 4.5 billion years to get there.  We are now the apex predator, the ruler of the planet which is why we claim (self-appointed) to have dominion over every other species.  Dominion in this case the destruction of these other species.  "*The Holocene extinction, otherwise referred to as the sixth mass extinction or Anthropocene extinction*, is an ongoing extinction event of species during the present Holocene epoch (with the more recent time sometimes called Anthropocene) as a result of human activity."  We also manage massacre of other members of our own species, in massive numbers.


----------



## Lee (Jun 13, 2022)

Just my theory but here it goes. There are two entities fighting it out.....God and Satan, each powerful in their own way.

Maybe the disasters in the world are caused by Satan, and then God comes along and gives the people a way to help those in need.

Putin....was he a product of Satan......Mother Theresa, a product of God. One good, one evil.

Illness may be caused by Satan, we do not know how or why cancer starts, but then again God is there guiding a physician with skilled hands.

We just don't know the plan, we may never know, simple as that.

I guess I could be considered a part time Christian, I turn to God when a need arises.....better than turning to Satan methinks.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 13, 2022)

God has a plan​
Yes

Yes, He does


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> God has a plan​
> Yes
> 
> Yes, He does


The human ego uses the argument for "God has a plan" as always revolving around humanity on this planet as the primary basis for creation. The size of the universe is immense beyond our puny understanding.  Human arrogance views the universe as being for our benefit.   But what if it doesn't? What if God's plan involves the entire universe, and that humanity has proven to be a failure in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> But what if it doesn't? What if God's plan involves the entire universe, and that humanity has proven to be a failure in the grand scheme of things.


'Failure'?

I'm calling it an example


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> 'Failure'?
> 
> I'm calling it an example


An example of what?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> An example of what?


What happens

Other worlds have gotta be observing the shit we've pulled, and the results.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> We are now the apex predator


Tell that to a lion or a bear or man-eating shark, and pass it along to venomous snakes and spiders, and a few viruses.


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> I am a 'medium' (dead people speak to me) and *more than one has said 'I'm glad I left when I did because I don't want to be part of what is going to happen next in the world'.*


How would _they _know?


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Tell that to a lion or a bear or man-eating shark, and pass it along to venomous snakes and spiders, and a few viruses.


Really?  We are *destroying entire species *on a massive basis, mass-level extinction events.  None of the animals you site are doing that, or have the ability to do so.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 13, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> What happens
> 
> Other worlds have gotta be observing the shit we've pulled, and the results.


Interesting perspective.  I concur.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> Really?  We are *destroying entire species *on a massive basis, mass-level extinction events.  None of the animals you site are doing that, or have the ability to do so.


Maybe the extinction of some species occurs because they didn't evolve as efficiently as others. Could be that some countries over-fish, not only their own waters, but other nation's waters as well. 

I just wanted to point out that we aren't all predators, certainly not apex predators. I hate those blanket statements about how evil humans are. Do we need to be more conscientious? Of course, and 10s of thousands of people are actually actively working on problems and solutions.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 13, 2022)

spectratg said:


> Interesting perspective. I concur.


I look at our little planet, barely a blip on the universal radar, and wonder.

My commercial fisherman son has this daughter.
She has Dravet's syndrome
Epileptic fits throughout the day and night 
She's approaching 10 years of age
Not expected to live to her teens
He watches over her 24/7
It greatly inhibits his fishing
Fishing is his money
He takes her with him
Horrific endeavor 
He tends her seizures with the care of The Creator 
I've never seen anything quite like it

He's a tough character
Tougher than I ever thought of being

But, she has given him a purpose
He comments on this from time to time
It has changed his life
It certainly has changed mine

I see the Creator as tending us, this earth
with greater care than I can ever imagine

We're destined to not exist forever
We can't help it
We're his Dravet's syndrome children

But, he has this plan

Not just for us, but for the universe


----------



## chic (Jun 13, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> it just makes a nonsense out of the oft repeated phrase about God not giving you more than you can cope with... but did you know that 'God' never said any such thing in the Bible... it was taken out of context  from Corinthians.. 10.13
> 
> 
> _ “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”
> ...


I believe you. In studying the bible, I never found a passage that said He would not give us more than we could handle. All anyone has to do really is look hard at all the suffering souls on the edge to know this cannot be true.


----------



## Della (Jun 13, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> There is more than anyone can even imagine in their wildest dreams or hopes,  even the faithful believers know only a fraction....


I like that. One of my favorite verses is, 1 Corinthians 13:12

 "For _now we see through a glass, darkly_; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I compare my brain to God's, as my dog's brain to mine.  She can't understand why I keep taking her to the vet who does terrible things to her -- the last time he pulled all her teeth!  I can't explain to her that it was to save her pain and sickness in the long run because she can't understand that.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Jun 13, 2022)

I believe God's plan us to allow us to figure out what life is all about so eventually we all become so enlightened we all love each other and realize we are all connected ..living in perfect harmony..but I wonder.... then what?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

Lee said:


> Just my theory but here it goes. There are two entities fighting it out.....God and Satan, each powerful in their own way.
> 
> Maybe the disasters in the world are caused by Satan, and then God comes along and gives the people a way to help those in need.
> 
> ...


You say you believe in god and the devil.  I say that I believe in good and evil.  The only difference is one letter per word.
God and the devil are ethereal concepts.  Good and evil are easily observable.   *GO*O*D*  D*EVIL*

There is little difference in Earthly outcomes: Whether a person chooses to be good or is good because they believe in god; whether a person chooses to be evil or is evil because they believe the devil made them do it.

For me, it is just easier to believe in the observable - good or evil.  _As for heaven and hell, that I *do* believe is what* humankind *creates on planet Earth_.


----------



## win231 (Jun 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> There is no plan.  There is no god.


Agreed, but I see nothing wrong with the belief if it gives some people comfort.


----------



## win231 (Jun 13, 2022)

chic said:


> God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
> We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.
> A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
> What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?
> ...


I always expect believers to justify everything that happens by saying it's _"God's Plan."_
A friend of my sister's (who pretends to be Orthodox but only follows the customs that aren't too.....inconvenient for her) says,
_"God is in control of everything."  _I find her rather amusing, actually, especially when she tries to turn me into a believer.
I said,_ "So....was God in control when 3,000 people were killed on 911?"
"Yes,"_ she said.
_"Was God in control when the Oklahoma Federal Building was bombed & 168 people were killed?"_
"Yes," she said.
_"What about the 25 children who were killed in the day care center on the 1st floor?"
"God was in control of that, too"_ she said."
I just let her go on & on.  Doesn't bother me.
Even some friends who know I'm not religious will say _"Pray for me" _when things are going bad for them.
I just say, _"OK."_


----------



## chic (Jun 14, 2022)

Della said:


> I like that. One of my favorite verses is, 1 Corinthians 13:12
> 
> "For _now we see through a glass, darkly_; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
> 
> I compare my brain to God's, as my dog's brain to mine.  She can't understand why I keep taking her to the vet who does terrible things to her -- the last time he pulled all her teeth!  I can't explain to her that it was to save her pain and sickness in the long run because she can't understand that.


This post answers a lot of questions for me. I agree with you that God's brain and ours are on different wavelengths in this universe, as ours are to animals'. But your dog trusted you and now she has no teeth? Not one single tooth left in her head? Don't you think she misses chewing? What can she eat? Worse how can she defend herself from other animal's threats? She has no teeth to bare. I've seen people keep cats alive who are deaf and blind and I wonder about that. Maybe you had all your dog's teeth pulled for you because you didn't want to let go?

Maybe God treats us like this also. Maybe this why some suffer so terribly? Churches still place more value on life itself than the quality of the individual's life in question. Maybe feelings should matter more? I would be a happier and more comforted woman if God treated me with more tenderness and understanding and yes, compassion, because our time upon this Earth is so limited compared to infinity and the quality of that existence matters greatly, more so than length of days. Does God not see this? If He does and it doesn't matter to Him then there's a problem.

The Old testament was more clear on the shoulds and shouldn'ts and what people can expect from God in return. Believers were blessed with health, family, prosperity, victory, successful trade, large flocks, etc. all physical benefits that could not be questioned. ( I'm not talking about Job here.) And I did feel that God was particularly harsh on Adam and Eve who were suicidal when God cast them out of Eden. What would have been wrong with just forgiving them and keeping Satan out?


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 14, 2022)

A true tale... I worked for many years for 'Big Blue' in Hampshire and my children attended the local C of E school.  Occasionally, the local vicar would attend the "put the fear of God into them".  (At that time the Vicar was Rev. Pincent, father of the Olympic medalist)
One day my son said they were told that God had made the heavens and Earth, the trees etc etc..
Mrs. L asked him if God made computers too, to which he replied, "No, IBM make them"


----------



## Pepper (Jun 14, 2022)

win231 said:


> Agreed, but I see nothing wrong with the belief if it gives some people comfort.


I generally agree with your agreement until belief becomes political.


----------



## Della (Jun 14, 2022)

chic said:


> This post answers a lot of questions for me. I agree with you that God's brain and ours are on different wavelengths in this universe, as ours are to animals'. But your dog trusted you and now she has no teeth? Not one single tooth left in her head? Don't you think she misses chewing? What can she eat? Worse how can she defend herself from other animal's threats? She has no teeth to bare. I've seen people keep cats alive who are deaf and blind and I wonder about that. Maybe you had all your dog's teeth pulled for you because you didn't want to let go?


Well first of all it really wasn't my decision, it was the vets.  I took Maggie in because she had a big lump on her cheek from an abscessed tooth, something very painful.  The vet put her to sleep to pull the one tooth, discovered she had gum disease all through her mouth and pulled them all while she was asleep. 

 I was shocked to get her back that way, but was assured she would have died from all the infection and been in severe pain for weeks before she went.  Of course she misses chewing and I'm sad for her for that, but I make special soft food for her every day and she enjoys that very much.  She has a nice safe fenced in yard with no predators, just rabbits and squirrels she still chases.  She can still go for walks, bark at everything and take naps with me.  She seems happy and waggy and pain free.  I would never keep an animal alive who seemed to be in pain or lost and confused.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 14, 2022)

How can anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust, all the wars endlessly killing people, the horrifying diseases of people and animals, famine, mass shootings, natural disasters wiping out millions, and especially human stupidity and hatred, believe that all that is part of "God's plan?"  What kind of god would have such a plan? Would you really worship such a being?

It's just a mindless bromide, another way of saying, "We just don't know."

We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan. Leave the imaginary stuff out of it.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunny said:


> We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan.


And what might that be?
Would it be enforced?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunny said:
We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan.


Gary O' said:


> And what might that be?
> Would it be enforced?


To me it means treating others as you wish others to treat you and treating the planet as if it is the home your grandkids will inherit from you.  What Sunny said seems simple enough.  What parts did you not understand?


----------



## Grampa Don (Jun 14, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> And what might that be?
> Would it be enforced?


There's a difference between a plan and a rule.  You don't have to enforce a plan.  If you can convince others it's a good plan it will be followed.  Unfortunately, in todays world that has about as good a chance as the proverbial snowball in Hell.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 14, 2022)




----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> To me it means treating others as you wish others to treat you and treating the planet as if it is the home your grandkids will inherit from you. What Sunny said seems simple enough. What parts did you not understand?


Oh, I understand the premise
Check out the ten commandments 

However;



Grampa Don said:


> Unfortunately, in todays world that has about as good a chance as the proverbial snowball in Hell.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2022)

An Observation
@Sunny
How can anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust, all the wars endlessly killing people, the horrifying diseases of people and animals, famine, mass shootings, natural disasters wiping out millions, and especially human stupidity and hatred, believe that all that is part of "God's plan?" What kind of god would have such a plan? Would you really worship such a being?

It's just a mindless bromide, another way of saying, "We just don't know."

Kind of interesting that all the above was ignored in favor of questioning

This

We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan. Leave the imaginary stuff out of it.


Ignoring all the negative things that happen & giving credit for only good seems kind of lopsided to me.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 14, 2022)

Della said:


> Well first of all it really wasn't my decision, it was the vets.  I took Maggie in because she had a big lump on her cheek from an abscessed tooth, something very painful.  The vet put her to sleep to pull the one tooth, discovered she had gum disease all through her mouth and pulled them all while she was asleep.
> 
> I was shocked to get her back that way, but was assured she would have died from all the infection and been in severe pain for weeks before she went.  Of course she misses chewing and I'm sad for her for that, but I make special soft food for her every day and she enjoys that very much.  She has a nice safe fenced in yard with no predators, just rabbits and squirrels she still chases.  She can still go for walks, bark at everything and take naps with me.  She seems happy and waggy and pain free.  I would never keep an animal alive who seemed to be in pain or lost and confused.


Since we are way off topic here, my dog is also named Maggie.  She is a 90-pound golden doodle, eight years old.  I got her shortly after my wife died.  You took the right action for your pooch!  I would have done the same.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 14, 2022)

Lee said:


> Just my theory but here it goes. There are two entities fighting it out.....God and Satan, each powerful in their own way.
> 
> Maybe the disasters in the world are caused by Satan, and then God comes along and gives the people a way to help those in need.
> 
> ...


Why doesn't God just destroy Satan?  Or why did he make Satan in the first place? Nothing about organized religion makes any sense at all


----------



## win231 (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunny said:


> How can anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust, all the wars endlessly killing people, the horrifying diseases of people and animals, famine, mass shootings, natural disasters wiping out millions, and especially human stupidity and hatred, believe that all that is part of "God's plan?"  What kind of god would have such a plan? Would you really worship such a being?
> 
> It's just a mindless bromide, another way of saying, "We just don't know."
> 
> We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan. Leave the imaginary stuff out of it.


It's called "Holding firm in a belief that gives someone comfort in a crazy world."
For some, a comforting fairy tale is better than harsh reality.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 14, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Maybe the extinction of some species occurs because they didn't evolve as efficiently as others. Could be that some countries over-fish, not only their own waters, but other nation's waters as well.
> 
> I just wanted to point out that we aren't all predators, certainly not apex predators. I hate those blanket statements about how evil humans are. Do we need to be more conscientious? Of course, and 10s of thousands of people are actually actively working on problems and solutions.


We are apex predators.  Lions and bears have  no defense against our weapons.  We  could wipe them off the face of the earth if we wanted. And we've virtually done that to many species. I don't see how that makes us evil


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 14, 2022)

win231 said:


> It's called "Holding firm in a belief that gives someone comfort in a crazy world."
> For some, a comforting fairy tale is better than harsh reality.


And it's a way to control people.


----------



## Della (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunny said:


> We need a "plan" to be kinder to each other, and to the planet. It's up to us, and OUR plan. Leave the imaginary stuff out of it.


I think that was God's plan when he sent Jesus and he was definitely not imaginary.

  People had been following the letter of the law (Ten Commandments) but leaving out the love  that was supposed to be behind it. Jesus's Sermon on the Mountain was all about that. For example mankind understood the, "thou shalt not murder" commandment but Jesus said don't even be angry at people. Don't just forgive people a few times, forgive them over and over, treat them as you would treat yourself, love your neighbor as much as yourself, love children most of all. 

Being kind to others was Jesus's plan over 2000 years ago, we just didn't follow the plan.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Oh, I understand the premise
> Check out the ten commandments
> 
> However;
> ...


I am aware of both.  (-:


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Why doesn't God just destroy Satan? Or why did he make Satan in the first place?


Quite the risk, creating beings with the power of choice.

If The Creator zapped whoever fell outa line, those remaining would behave out of fear


Have to let things play out
See how/why evil is evil


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jun 14, 2022)

If god has a plan define god to me.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> If The Creator zapped whoever fell outa line, those remaining would behave out of fear
> 
> 
> See how/why evil is evil


I'll use the popular term "Creator"  since that is recognized & the popular bible story is Noah & the Ark.  Wouldn't zapping people in the form of drowning all but Noah & his family fit what we have come to know as evil?


----------



## Pepper (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> I'll use the popular term "Creator"  since that is recognized & the popular bible story is Noah & the Ark.  *Wouldn't zapping people in the form of drowning all but Noah & his family fit what we have come to know as evil?*


No, silly, because God did it.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 14, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> We are apex predators.  Lions and bears have  no defense against our weapons.  We  could wipe them off the face of the earth if we wanted. And we've virtually done that to many species. I don't see how that makes us evil


People who (for example) over-fish to the point where they deplete the waters of a species and then move on to deplete other waters are evil. They know what they're doing and they don't care.

I still firmly disagree that humans are apex predators. imo an apex predator doesn't need a weapon, its weapons and killing instincts are built in. It's built for predation and can kill animals way larger than itself. We need weapons and back-up because we lack the physicality and cunning to successfully prey on prey animals with our own hands and teeth. We aren't natural predators, we probly ate a lot of small things before we figured out how to fashion spears and whatever.

Can we kill anything we want to? Yes, with bombs, guns, and tanks, we can. That makes us dangerous, but we are far too fragile (imo) to be labeled apex predators.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> Wouldn't zapping people in the form of drowning all but Noah & his family fit what we have come to know as evil?


True enough
There comes a time

Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man _was_ great in the earth, and _that_ every intent of the thoughts of his heart _was_ only evil continually.


Matthew 24:37
As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> I'll use the popular term "Creator"  since that is recognized & the popular bible story is Noah & the Ark.  Wouldn't zapping people in the form of drowning all but Noah & his family fit what we have come to know as evil?


Since the Creator did that, I'd compare it to backing up the files you want to save and deleting everything else.


----------



## David777 (Jun 14, 2022)

Sunny said:


> How can anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust, all the wars endlessly killing people, the horrifying diseases of people and animals, famine, mass shootings, natural disasters wiping out millions, and especially human stupidity and hatred, believe that all that is part of "God's plan?"  What kind of god would have such a plan? Would you really worship such a being?...


The mistake is pointing to God as responsible when it was in fact humans that conveniently claim guidance from God since he is a supposed moral elite that they were inspired by or whatever.  Why do you think God is responsible for maintaining or fixing those listed items.  Did he interfere like that with any lower animal species?  Of course not.  Maybe God (that I expect is actual part of a race of limited UIEs) just helped create the Earth but rarely becomes involved in a long list of things religious dogma has supposedly added to his responsibilities (and gifts for his faithful).  Of course for denominations that is a self serving agenda.  The more good things they can put on God's list, the more reason their flock has reason to be there. 

_[Preacher] Ahh yes, God can do anything good for you that you can imagine, (well except that gambling bet you're making) but Jimmy you need to be part of our denomination.  

[Jimmy] But the preacher at our other church down the street told Roy that God was good for bets at the horse track too so I'm thinking of  attending his service._


----------



## Pepper (Jun 14, 2022)

@David777 
"Maybe God (that I expect is actual part of a race of limited UIEs)"

Do you mean like Q on Star Trek Next Generation?


----------



## David777 (Jun 14, 2022)

Pepper said:


> @David777
> "Maybe God (that I expect is actual part of a race of limited UIEs)"
> 
> Do you mean like Q on Star Trek Next Generation?


I doubt any scientist is going to expect beings like that will ever be possible by any evolved Ultimate Intelligent Entity nor several others on that sci-fi that had magic like powers, nor powers like Scotty's matter transporter, nor the Hollow Deck, nor time travel.  Even near or greater than light speed travel is likely impossible.  Makes for easy scifi writing.  An ancient UIE race billions of years old would be able to do many things that might seem like magic to primitives like humans but are actually using advanced technologies that are physically possible providing forces for actions.  Several times I challenged members to provide some scripture (especially in Genesis) they think is impossible magic nonsense and I'll show how whatever could be interpreted in more believable ways.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 14, 2022)

Thanks for the explanation @David777.  Like most things on this topic, it leads to even more questions.


----------



## JustDave (Jun 14, 2022)

God's plan looks identical to a world where things happen randomly without explanation.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> True enough
> There comes a time
> 
> Genesis 6:5
> ...


Doesn't explain the massive amount of children that would have been drown


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> Doesn't explain the massive amount of children that would have been drown


The sins of the father (the earthly father). That was a common practice in biblical times.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> The sins of the father (the earthly father). That was a common practice in biblical times.


I guess that extends to a wife.  Kind of hard to imagine everyone but Noah & his family met the criteria for mass drowning. But hey it's God & whatever God does is OK. 
No learning lesson there about if you are upset with how what you made turned out just kill it & try again. 

Other instances like the red sea & the death of the military that was doing the chasing. Surely the families suffered the loss of those that were drown when the sea collapsed in on them.  Again the sins of the father foisted on wives & children? 
That sins of the father thing should work for all the deaths in Sodom. But now happily not all living like they did in Sodom they are not all living in one area.  An estimated 3.5% of adults in the United States identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual and an estimated 0.3% of adults are transgender. This implies that there are approximately 9 million LGBT Americans, a figure roughly equivalent to the population of New Jersey. Murdering that many now would surely change some minds. 

I think anyone that can't see a pattern of killing that eventually amounted to not producing the desired results has to question if omnipotent fits as a description of a creator that is billions of years old now that watches everyone.  An omnipotent would know what the outcome was going to be. 
13 Bible Verses about God's Omnipotence​https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God~s-Omnipotence


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> I guess that extends to a wife.  Kind of hard to imagine everyone but Noah & his family met the criteria for mass drowning. But hey it's God & whatever God does is OK.
> No learning lesson there about if you are upset with how what you made turned out just kill it & try again.
> 
> Other instances like the red sea & the death of the military that was doing the chasing. Surely the families suffered the loss of those that were drown when the sea collapsed in on them.  Again the sins of the father foisted on wives & children?
> ...


Since he's also All-Knowing, it's easy to justify the slaughter by agreeing that god knows something we don't.

Women were off-limits to many biblical era slaughterers, btw. They were only responsible for their own sins. Until the Crusades. Then they were pretty much fair game.


----------



## chic (Jun 14, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Since he's also All-Knowing, it's easy to justify the slaughter by agreeing that god knows something we don't.
> 
> Women were off-limits to many biblical era slaughterers, btw. They were only responsible for their own sins. Until the Crusades. Then they were pretty much fair game.


IDK. There was the slaughter of the Innocents in the NT., babies held by mothers though not all of the mothers died. But that was directed by Herod.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 14, 2022)

David777 said:


> I doubt any scientist is going to expect beings like that will ever be possible by any evolved Ultimate Intelligent Entity nor several others on that sci-fi that had magic like powers, nor powers like Scotty's matter transporter, nor the Hollow Deck, nor time travel.  Even near or greater than light speed travel is likely impossible.  Makes for easy scifi writing.  An ancient UIE race billions of years old would be able to do many things that might seem like magic to primitives like humans but are actually using advanced technologies that are physically possible providing forces for actions.  Several times I challenged members to provide some scripture (especially in Genesis) they think is impossible magic nonsense and I'll show how whatever could be interpreted in more believable ways.


Arthur C. Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> An omnipotent would know what the outcome was going to be.


Precisely


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> I'll use the popular term "Creator"  since that is recognized & the popular bible story is Noah & the Ark.  Wouldn't zapping people in the form of drowning all but Noah & his family fit what we have come to know as evil?


more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic,  penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos  from Australia  to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

"When you face challenges or difficulties, you can be encouraged that God understands what you are going through. He knows about your pressures and problems, and He also knows the purpose for your trials. "
https://www.josh.org/resources/spiritual-growth/attributes-of-god/?"

""God promises, *“I know the plans I have for you… They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope”*" (Jeremiah 29:11, New Living Translation).

So, evidently, according to this, the god-fellow doesn't care about the disaster of slaughtered children and the taking away of their future.  What good does it do if the god-fellow _understand_s what (the families) are going through and _knows_ the purpose of their trials?

Oh yeah, I remember.  It's god's will.  Be happy.  It will be better when you are ALL dead.  Heaven awaits.


----------



## chic (Jun 14, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> "When you face challenges or difficulties, you can be encouraged that God understands what you are going through. He knows about your pressures and problems, and He also knows the purpose for your trials. "
> https://www.josh.org/resources/spiritual-growth/attributes-of-god/?"
> 
> ""God promises, *“I know the plans I have for you… They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope”*" (Jeremiah 29:11, New Living Translation).
> ...


That's what I worry about. The heaven thing. Many are comforted by the fact that they believe there is this perfect magical place they will go to after they die where they will be reunited with dead loves ones. But it sounds like brainwashing to me. It's just not a comfort.  And I still don't know God's plan. I wonder if God doesn't tell us His plan for us because he knows ahead of time we will not like it?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 14, 2022)

chic said:


> That's what I worry about. The heaven thing


No worries
We'll only be there for a thousand years.

Now, the new earth....


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 14, 2022)

chic said:


> IDK. There was the slaughter of the Innocents in the NT., babies held by mothers though not all of the mothers died. But *that was directed by Herod*.


An infidel, right?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

chic said:


> That's what I worry about. The heaven thing. Many are comforted by the fact that they believe there is this perfect magical place they will go to after they die where they will be reunited with dead loves ones. But it sounds like brainwashing to me. It's just not a comfort.  And I still don't know God's plan. *I wonder if God doesn't tell us His plan for us because he knows ahead of time we will not like it?*


That's a fascinating point.  I'm sure the parents of the last 19 children gunned down wouldn't have had children (if given the choice) if they had known how terrifying their last moments would be and learn about their premature demise.  /-;


----------



## chic (Jun 14, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> An infidel, right?


Don't get me started.   Yes, he was one of the bad guys.


----------



## Nathan (Jun 14, 2022)

> God has a plan


Seems to be a popular belief, can't really point to one particular person who first thought it.
A plan for Mankind?  Use intelligence to adapt and survive?
A plan for you?   We all have a role to play, we're like a pinball machine in the way we impact others, for better or sometimes not.  
We grow from interaction with others, others grow from their experiences with us.


----------



## chic (Jun 14, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> That's a fascinating point.  I'm sure the parents of the last 19 children gunned down wouldn't have had children (if given the choice) if they had known how terrifying their last moments would be and learn about their premature demise.  /-;


I don't know if they would have or not. Some people are resilient. And one of the girls smeared her dead friend's blood on her body and played dead herself to survive. People are unpredictable.


----------



## David777 (Jun 14, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic,  penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos  from Australia  to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?


@hollydolly , that is because you haven't read the missing Hebrew manuscript.  Scotty from the Star Ship Enterprise just happened to be on shore leave after Spock did one of those time travel things using a reverse gravity light-speed slingshot effect near the Sun to go back to the Noah event.  Scotty beamed to the Ark's deck along with a Dr Who type telephone booth that was actually one, of Scotty's portable Transporters.  So along with Noah, they just beamed around the planet, beaming back animals as they went, cracking crude animal jokes.  Further, Spock set up one of those size reduction ray machines on the Ark's deck that automatically reduced the animal in cage dimensions down to one/one-thousands of true size so they would all fit.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 14, 2022)

hollydolly said:
more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic, penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos from Australia to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?


David777 said:


> @hollydolly , that is because you haven't read the missing Hebrew manuscript.  Scotty from the Star Ship Enterprise just happened to be on shore leave after Spock did one of those time travel things using a reverse gravity light-speed slingshot effect near the Sun to go back to the Noah event.  Scotty beamed to the Ark's deck along with a Dr Who type telephone booth that was actually one, of Scotty's portable Transporters.  So along with Noah, they just beamed around the planet, beaming back animals as they went, cracking crude animal jokes.  Further, Spock set up one of those size reduction ray machines on the Ark's deck that automatically reduced the animal in cage dimensions down to one/one-thousands of true size so they would all fit.


I thank whatever gods may be for a little humor in this thread, sarcastic though it may be.


----------



## Packerjohn (Jun 14, 2022)

Oh yes, God may have a plan but who are we to say what it is; unless, of course, we have conversations with him?


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> hollydolly said:
> more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic, penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos from Australia to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?
> 
> I thank whatever gods may be for a little humor in this thread, sarcastic though it may be.


Are you dissing my thread?


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> Oh yes, God may have a plan but who are we to say what it is; unless, of course, we have conversations with him?


This is true and more people should try talking to God when overwhelmed by questions that seem to have no answers.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 15, 2022)

chic said:


> Are you dissing my thread?
> 
> View attachment 225279


hollydolly said:  "more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic, penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos from Australia to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?"

David777 said: @hollydolly , "that is because you haven't read the missing Hebrew manuscript. Scotty from the Star Ship Enterprise just happened to be on shore leave after Spock did one of those time travel things using a reverse gravity light-speed slingshot effect near the Sun to go back to the Noah event. Scotty beamed to the Ark's deck along with a Dr Who type telephone booth that was actually one, of Scotty's portable Transporters. So along with Noah, they just beamed around the planet, beaming back animals as they went, cracking crude animal jokes. Further, Spock set up one of those size reduction ray machines on the Ark's deck that automatically reduced the animal in cage dimensions down to one/one-thousands of true size so they would all fit."

Em said:  "I thank whatever gods may be for a little humor in this thread, sarcastic though it may be."

Then Em said:  Not dissing your thread, dear Chic!  Wouldn't dream of it!


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

chic said:


> This is true and more people should try talking to God when overwhelmed by questions that seem to have no answers.


When I tried talking to God, I didn't even get an answering machine.


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Precisely


Precisely what?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

Knight said:


> Precisely what?


He knows the outcome
We don't
If we did, maybe we wouldn't be so quick to question


----------



## Sunny (Jun 15, 2022)

Ever see the play or the movie, Inherit the Wind?  It's a masterpiece from the mid-20th century, about the famous Scopes trial. 

Clarence Darrow has William Jennings Bryan on the stand (a politician who is opposed to Darwin and his theory), and Darrow asks him if he really believes God drowned all the animals aside from the two that He saved from each species.

Bryan: Yes, He did.
Darrow:  Even the fish?


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Ever see the play or the movie, Inherit the Wind?



https://ok.ru/video/397530237506

I googled and found the full movie I think to watch for free.


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

I'm watching it now.  I'm 15 minutes in.  It's fun.  That guy from Bewitched plays the teacher standing trial.  It's a dated movie, but quite enjoyable so far.  OK, I'm going back to the movie.


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> He knows the outcome
> We don't
> If we did, maybe we wouldn't be so quick to question


If I understand you. Knowing the outcome of drowning all but Noah has to mean knowing that future killings & condemning his "son" to a horrible death were going to take place. Speaking for myself that doesn't say that God is compassionate or loving.

If anything the popular bible stories point to the kind of slaughter taking place now as being the way to deal with those that don't please you in some way.


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

JustDave said:


> When I tried talking to God, I didn't even get an answering machine.


Call back.


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Ever see the play or the movie, Inherit the Wind?  It's a masterpiece from the mid-20th century, about the famous Scopes trial.
> 
> Clarence Darrow has William Jennings Bryan on the stand (a politician who is opposed to Darwin and his theory), and Darrow asks him if he really believes God drowned all the animals aside from the two that He saved from each species.
> 
> ...


Spencer Tracy was in that? Must watch again.


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

Knight said:


> If I understand you. Knowing the outcome of drowning all but Noah has to mean knowing that future killings & condemning his "son" to a horrible death were going to take place. Speaking for myself that doesn't say that God is compassionate or loving.
> 
> If anything the popular bible stories point to the kind of slaughter taking place now as being the way to deal with those that don't please you in some way.


Yup, I had trouble with Abraham sacrificing Isaac, the whole book of Job and the crucifixion.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

Knight said:


> If I understand you. Knowing the outcome of drowning all but Noah has to mean knowing that future killings & condemning his "son" to a horrible death were going to take place. Speaking for myself that doesn't say that God is compassionate or loving.


His death is our salvation

He died our death
Of which is separation from The Father
Some of His last words;
 “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”

Even though He knew the prophesies of his resurrection on the third day,
He died that 'horrible death' ours....total separation, forever

John 3:16,17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

This love is beyond understanding


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> His death is our salvation
> 
> He died our death
> Of which is separation from The Father
> ...


Do you actually believe the world is as intended in John 3:16,17.  Is this is your idea of a saved world.

As for the eternal life the promise that goes both ways. Eternally in hell or on the golden streets.  I'm of the opinion you die & that's it you become worm food if not cremated.


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

chic said:


> Spencer Tracy was in that? Must watch again.


If you watch closely, there are a whole bunch of actors playing bit parts, most that eventually became more well know than the main stars.  Well, maybe not more well known than Spencer Tracey, but more than any of the others.  I've known about the Monkey Trial, but only that it occurred, and what it was about.  If it lacked the same about of decorum, and was as chaotic, immaterial, and theatrical as the movie, then it was really a Monkey Trial, down to the end where some little kid jumps on the bench, bangs the gavel, and jumps off again, and little more.  As a legal proceeding, it lends no credibility to our system of justice.  Hollywood must have surely taken a great deal of liberty with reality to make that film.  It reminded me of 2 hour long Saturday Night Live skit.  It is what I imagine a whole bunch of judges and lawyers doing when they get drunk at a party and start acting silly.  I did enjoy it, although it could have done with less shouting.


----------



## palides2021 (Jun 15, 2022)

Gaer said:


> I am the little girl in the classroom jumping up and down with her hand in the air, screaming,
> "I KNOW!  I KNOW!  I KNOW!"
> and
> I DO KNOW!
> ...


I have read your books, @Gaer! I agree with everything you say and believe that you were truly visited by angels. Not everyone is graced and blessed by God. All we can do is pray that they receive His grace.


----------



## Gaer (Jun 15, 2022)

palides2021 said:


> I have read your books, @Gaer! I agree with everything you say and believe that you were truly visited by angels. Not everyone is graced and blessed by God. All we can do is pray that they receive His grace.


Oh!  You're the one?  (haha)
Thank you! That means a lot!


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

JustDave said:


> https://ok.ru/video/397530237506
> 
> I googled and found the full movie I think to watch for free.


Thank you.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 15, 2022)

So is John 3:16,17 saying that a non-believer who is otherwise a paragon of virtue, is going to be denied "eternal life" ?


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> So is John 3:16,17 saying that a non-believer who is otherwise a paragon of virtue, is going to be denied "eternal life" ?


I think the answer is conditional on which Christian you ask.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

Knight said:


> s for the eternal life the promise that goes both ways. Eternally in hell or on the golden streets. I'm of the opinion you die & that's it you become worm food if not cremated.


There is no 'eternal hell'
Nothing in The Bible supports that
There's just eternal death.....separation
Sleep...worm food.

Ecclesiastes9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

@Knight

I pretty much know where you're coming from

Most my life I considered The Bible as a feel good story
For young children, and old women
I mean, a talking snake in a tree? Get real.

Then, a kindly old gent gave me a bit of a spiritual hand
Showed me some prophesies
Handed me a little book
*Daniel and the Revelation*, by Uriah Smith
Fascinating

I began to study

Then put it all away
Got things to do

Moved to the mountains
Couldn't help but take in creation up there

Began to study again
Prayerful study this time (as the old gent advised)
Big difference

I've had fun most my life
Just one party after another
Using creation to hunt, fish, camp

But, I've never known the joys until not that long ago

I won't let that go

As Jacob
Genesis 32:26
"_I won't let you go_, _unless you bless me_."

I get that now
and I won't let go
can't
This incorrigible needs Him

My thoughts and prayers are with you



​​​


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 15, 2022)

Lee said:


> I guess I could be considered a part time Christian, I turn to God when a need arises.....


"Ain't no atheists in a foxhole."


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> His death is our salvation
> 
> He died our death
> Of which is separation from The Father
> ...


I'm asking in all seriousness, how to do equate “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” with a loving father when it sounds like the son lost faith in him?


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> There is no 'eternal hell'
> Nothing in The Bible supports that
> There's just eternal death.....separation
> Sleep...worm food.
> ...


Thank you I respect your input.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I'm asking in all seriousness, how to do equate “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” with a loving father when it sounds like the son lost faith in him?


He lost His eternal life
The one we should have lost
He went through the agony and pains of death.....separatation for the first time in eternity
The withdrawal began in the garden of Gethsemane 
He experienced the emptiness 
Any other way and it'd been all a charade, just an exercise


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I'm asking in all seriousness, how to do equate “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” with a loving father when it sounds like the son lost faith in him?


I have pondered this many times.  It does more harm to the Jesus myth than good.


----------



## JustDave (Jun 15, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> He lost His eternal life
> The one we should have lost
> He went through the agony and pains of death


It seems to me he just had a bad weekend.


----------



## Della (Jun 15, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> So is John 3:16,17 saying that a non-believer who is otherwise a paragon of virtue, is going to be denied "eternal life" ?


I think the idea is that there are no true paragons of virtue, even the Mother Theresa types may secretly be very vain about their reputation as paragons or something else no one outside could see.

 So, when God saw that we just couldn't seem to keep from sinning in one way or another he sent Jesus to atone for all of us through his death on the cross.  Even the human part of Jesus had that moment of doubt toward the end.   

A prayer said by the congregation in many churches today asks forgiveness for any sins we might have committed "in thought word or deed" and then goes on to say, "If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us."


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I'm asking in all seriousness, how to do equate “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” with a loving father when it sounds like the son lost faith in him?



the mystery of God and man in one applies here

As man He must suffer the consequences of man's sin. 
As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Jun 15, 2022)




----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 15, 2022)

Della said:


> I think the idea is that there are no true paragons of virtue, even the Mother Theresa types may secretly be very vain about their reputation as paragons or something else no one outside could see.
> 
> So, when God saw that we just couldn't seem to keep from sinning in one way or another he sent Jesus to atone for all of us through his death on the cross.  Even the human part of Jesus had that moment of doubt toward the end.
> 
> A prayer said by the congregation in many churches today asks forgiveness for any sins we might have committed "in thought word or deed" and then goes on to say, "If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us."


So, god is counting "original sin" in newborns and denies that people can be paragons of virtue without him?  I don't think that is fair.


----------



## Della (Jun 15, 2022)

Whoa, I didn't say anything about original sin or children. 

 The congregation of adults say this as an admission that they aren't perfect and there is always room for improvement.


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> So, god is counting "original sin" in newborns and denies that people can be paragons of virtue without him?  I don't think that is fair.


A plan for each individual is what I'm understanding from various posts. Then God monitors what each individual does for decision making purposes.

From original intent 1st. man was to live according to instructions. Not having free will until the fruit of the tree of knowledge was eaten. With no free will & explicit instructions somehow another life force managed to over ride those instructions.

Good vs. Evil began.  Evil being choosing something contrary to the original instructions. Not really understanding how or why an omnipotent creator would allow deviation from the original plan of utopia for his creation. Seems killing in mass several times was an experiment that failed because that attempt to regain the plan was over 2000 years ago.

I really don't grasp the way a singular being billions of years old can monitor the lives of billions. If logic is applied then the fate of the 1st. humans like Neanderthals that had no exposer to his existence, should be roaming around heaven.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 15, 2022)

Knight said:


> A plan for each individual is what I'm understanding from various posts. Then God monitors what each individual does for decision making purposes.
> 
> From original intent 1st. man was to live according to instructions. Not having free will until the fruit of the tree of knowledge was eaten. With no free will & explicit instructions somehow another life force managed to over ride those instructions.
> 
> ...


Nine human species walked the Earth 300,000 years ago. Now there is just one. The Neanderthals, _Homo neanderthalensis_, were stocky hunters adapted to Europe's cold steppes.  The related Denisovans inhabited Asia, while the more primitive _Homo erectus_ lived in Indonesia, and _Homo rhodesiensis_ in central Africa. Several short, small-brained species survived alongside them: _Homo naledi_ in South Africa, _Homo luzonensis_ in the Philippines, _Homo floresiensis_ ("hobbits") in Indonesia, and the mysterious Red Deer Cave People in China.

Given how quickly we're discovering new species, more are likely waiting to be found.

By 10,000 years ago, they were all gone. The disappearance of these other species resembles a mass extinction. But there's no obvious environmental catastrophe – volcanic eruptions, climate change, asteroid impact – driving it. Instead, the extinctions' timing suggests they were caused by the spread of a new species, evolving 260,000-350,000 years ago in Southern Africa: _Homo sapiens_.

The spread of modern humans out of Africa has caused a sixth mass extinction, a greater than 40,000-year event extending from the disappearance of Ice Age mammals to the destruction of rainforests by civilization today. But were other humans the first casualties?


----------



## chic (Jun 15, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I'm asking in all seriousness, how to do equate “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” with a loving father when it sounds like the son lost faith in him?


Yes, I agree. This line has bothered me so much I wish it had never been written. I wonder what the original Greek says, how it interprets that line, because it makes me feel that what happened on the cross was not the way Jesus thought it was going to play out.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

chic said:


> it makes me feel that what happened on the cross was not the way Jesus thought it was going to play out.


Oh, but He did.
He studied the scriptures deeper than the Rabbis and priests ever thought of studying
He knew
He was the innocent lamb
He *gave* His life
...that we may live

Y'know, it's funny
We look at nature
We see what we've done to this planet
......and shudder
We know what results are coming
There's a price to be paid

But
we regard the laws of God like they are just so much bunk
However
The results are the same
A price to be paid

Yes, God gave his Son
To pay this price
and He paid, willingly

He died that death, yes
But
He arose

This
is the *Gospel *


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 15, 2022)

I put some words to a favorite photo I took up at the cabin

Then I'm pretty much done here (sorry for so many posts)


----------



## chic (Jun 16, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Oh, but He did.
> He studied the scriptures deeper than the Rabbis and priests ever thought of studying
> He knew
> He was the innocent lamb
> ...


I still feel uncomfortable with it Gary. Feeling forsaken is one of the worst feelings there is. And why couldn't God just forgive everybody anyway? He's omnipotent? I can see why atheists and agnostics have trouble with all this. I have trouble too and I believe in God but have serious issues with things written in the bible.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 16, 2022)

chic said:


> Yes, I agree. This line has bothered me so much I wish it had never been written. I wonder what the original Greek says, how it interprets that line, because it makes me feel that what happened on the cross was not the way Jesus thought it was going to play out.


Jesus always knew how his life would end.  When he uttered those words, it was just his humanity kicking in as it did on Gethsemane.  He was actually acting out Isaiah's account.  I can write a tome on this, I once did, but can't do so anymore.  Wish I could.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 16, 2022)

chic said:


> I still feel uncomfortable with it Gary. Feeling forsaken is one of the worst feelings there is. And why couldn't God just forgive everybody anyway? He's omnipotent? I can see why atheists and agnostics have trouble with all this. I have trouble too and I believe in God but have serious issues with things written in the bible.


As an agnostic, I acknowledge the possibility of god(s), but state that there is no way to prove their existence.  My bottom line, however, is that the god of the bible is not someone I could respect.  If all knowing, all powerful, with a plan, etc., why not do the kind thing in the simplest way?  If we are created in his image, why are we so flawed?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 16, 2022)

chic said:


> I still feel uncomfortable with it Gary. Feeling forsaken is one of the worst feelings there is. And why couldn't God just forgive everybody anyway? He's omnipotent?


I wish I had an answer
I don't

Just glad it worked out

I do know He readily, eagerly forgives those who ask

Not many ask

Somewhere in Revelation it talks about opening the books during the 1000 yrs in heaven

We'll see the whys
and find there could be no other way


----------



## Pepper (Jun 16, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> If we are created in his image, why are so flawed?


Guess he's flawed too.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Jun 16, 2022)

The Bible is just one of many stories about how we came to be. Most of them have perceived contradictions, or they are too unbelievable.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 16, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> The Bible is just one of many stories about how we came to be. Most of them have perceived contradictions, or they are too unbelievable.


Agreed.  Some other day, I'll launch into the subject of matter and quarks and what came first, the chicken or the egg  (-;


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> People who (for example) over-fish to the point where they deplete the waters of a species and then move on to deplete other waters are evil. They know what they're doing and they don't care.
> 
> I still firmly disagree that humans are apex predators. imo an apex predator doesn't need a weapon, its weapons and killing instincts are built in. It's built for predation and can kill animals way larger than itself. We need weapons and back-up because we lack the physicality and cunning to successfully prey on prey animals with our own hands and teeth. We aren't natural predators, we probly ate a lot of small things before we figured out how to fashion spears and whatever.
> 
> Can we kill anything we want to? Yes, with bombs, guns, and tanks, we can. That makes us dangerous, but we are far too fragile (imo) to be labeled apex predators.


Being intelligent enough to create weapons is exactly why we are apex predators. Being on an episode of Naked and Afraid  shows what we were like before we developed said weapons. Not even close to apex predators.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Quite the risk, creating beings with the power of choice.
> 
> If The Creator zapped whoever fell outa line, those remaining would behave out of fear
> 
> ...


Why? It's why organized religion makes no sense. When confronted with a question that's indefensible it's "Well it's God's plan" or somesuch other nonsense.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic,  penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos  from Australia  to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?


I'm pretty sure most people don't take everything in the bible literally. You'd have to be pretty stupid to do so as you point out. The stories are just to make a point.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Oh yeah, I remember.  It's god's will.  Be happy.  It will be better when you are ALL dead.  Heaven awaits.


Think about it, back in the early days the Kings (and the religious elite like cardinals and the Pope) lived like, well Kings. They had all the best food, wine, and yes, women while the masses starved and suffered. How do you keep them from revolting? You create an imaginary Heaven where if you just suffer some now  you will live like a king yourself in another life. And it worked like a charm for the most part.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

chic said:


> That's what I worry about. The heaven thing. Many are comforted by the fact that they believe there is this perfect magical place they will go to after they die where they will be reunited with dead loves ones. But it sounds like brainwashing to me. It's just not a comfort.  And I still don't know God's plan. I wonder if God doesn't tell us His plan for us because he knows ahead of time we will not like it?


Because likely there is no plan. This is it, enjoy what you have here. We as humans have a very high opinion of ourselves as being somehow so above the other creatures of the earth, but are we? I think not, we're really no more important then any other creature on earth just trying to survive till tomorrow. But death scares us, so we invent another life after this. Totally understandable, but just as unlikely


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Why? It's why organized religion makes no sense. When confronted with a question that's indefensible it's "Well it's God's plan" or somesuch other nonsense.


No argument
I pretty much detest 'organized religion' in all its insidious forms


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> So is John 3:16,17 saying that a non-believer who is otherwise a paragon of virtue, is going to be denied "eternal life" ?


That's one of my problems with Catholicism which I grew up in. They teach that no one who is not baptised  can get to Heaven. So had Mother Theresa been a Muslim or Jew and had lived the same remarkable life serving the sick and poor she would never get to heaven. Does that seem right? Or does it seem like something man would make up to get people to become Catholics.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Della said:


> So, when God saw that we just couldn't seem to keep from sinning in one way or another he sent Jesus to atone for all of us through his death on the cross.  Even the human part of Jesus had that moment of doubt toward the end.


He's God and he couldn't keep us from sinning?  Makes no sense. And really, Jesus dying for our sins makes no sense either. So Jesus, who is actually God (if you believe in the  Holy Trinity) sent his Son (who is really him) to die for our sins? Again, where is there any sense in this? If God was going to forgive our sins , why would Jesus have to die? Just forgive our sins. And what about all the sinners who came after Jesus. Who's dying to forgive their sins? All this stuff can make your head swim.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Oh, but He did.
> He studied the scriptures deeper than the Rabbis and priests ever thought of studying
> He knew
> He was the innocent lamb
> ...


But why was this even necessary?


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> As an agnostic, I acknowledge the possibility of god(s), but state that there is no way to prove their existence.  My bottom line, however, is that the god of the bible is not someone I could respect.  If all knowing, all powerful, with a plan, etc., why not do the kind thing in the simplest way?  If we are created in his image, why are we so flawed?


Because God was actually created in man's image, not the other way around.. That's why he has so many  of man's vicious sides, like anger, revenge, etc. the real God if there is one probably can't believe what we've come up with. Think about it, God speaks of women being subservient to their men. Why is that? Because that's what the men of the time who invented the myth thought about women. Do you really think God thinks of women as second class citizens?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> But why was this even necessary?


It's the results of sin
Death

Much like what's happening with how we've treated our planet

Not good


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> That's one of my problems with Catholicism which I grew up in. They teach that no one who is not baptised  can get to Heaven. So had Mother Theresa been a Muslim or Jew and had lived the same remarkable life serving the sick and poor she would never get to heaven. Does that seem right? Or does it seem like something man would make up to get people to become Catholics.


I had a cousin who was stillborn at full-term.  Since we are guilty at birth of "original sin," (according to the Catholic church), my cousin didn't go to this heavenly spot.  And according to the bible(s), this god said:


To me, that means that he acknowledges that he isn't the only god and that he is spiteful enough to damn 3 or 4 generations of our progeny if we tick him off.  Charming.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> But why was this even necessary?


The God who dies is a common myth in that area, in that time.


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Being intelligent enough to create weapons is exactly why we are apex predators. Being on an episode of Naked and Afraid  shows what we were like before we developed said weapons. Not even close to apex predators.


Apparently, I have a different definition of Apex Predator. And it could be wrong, but most of my adult life I lived in small towns and villages in the Sierra foothills and mountains, and the old men and local Native Americans talked about predatory animals a lot. Based on that, I know who's Apex and who isn't.

Whether you have a rifle, a bow, or a pile of rocks, you can't smell them coming. They know exactly where you are, what you ate last, and whether you have gun-powder. You kill indiscriminately. They can take you or leave you using wisdom and excellent judgement, instinctive and learned. You know where your hide is. They know where everything is. You fear them, they are wisely cautious, but they don't fear you. They know you are much weaker, slower, and that you can be stupid.

The one thing you have in common with them is that you are both opportunistic. But an experienced hunter knows that edible apex predators are wiser, faster, and more cunning. That's why he'll take a deer that will feed him for a few weeks rather than a bear that would feed him for a whole season.


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Apparently, I have a different definition of Apex Predator. And it could be wrong, but most of my adult life I lived in small towns and villages in the Sierra foothills and mountains, and the old men and local Native Americans talked about predatory animals a lot. Based on that, I know who's Apex and who isn't.
> 
> Whether you have a rifle, a bow, or a pile of rocks, you can't smell them coming. They know exactly where you are, what you ate last, and whether you have gun-powder. You kill indiscriminately. They can take you or leave you using wisdom and excellent judgement, instinctive and learned. You know where your hide is. They know where everything is. You fear them, they are wisely cautious, but they don't fear you. They know you are much weaker, slower, and that you can be stupid.
> 
> The one thing you have in common with them is that you are both opportunistic. But an experienced hunter knows that edible apex predators are wiser, faster, and more cunning. That's why he'll take a deer that will feed him for a few weeks rather than a bear that would feed him for a whole season.


Yet people are out hunting these apex Predators you think are so smart and deadly. Almost all of them would be extinct if we didn't protect them. That's not an apex anything


----------



## garyt1957 (Jun 17, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The God who dies is a common myth in that area, in that time.


Myth being the operative word


----------



## Murrmurr (Jun 17, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Yet people are out hunting these apex Predators you think are so smart and deadly. Almost all of them would be extinct if we didn't protect them. That's not an apex anything


I think you're sort of missing my point, but that's ok. And this part > That's not an apex anything < among the animal kingdom, that refers to humans, imo. We're apex inventors, though.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 18, 2022)

chic said:


> God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
> We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.
> A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
> What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?
> ...


This is  repost of the original poster's thread, just to put it back on track.  She asks a very good question and this leads us into a fascinating thread, in my opinion.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 18, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> This is  repost of the original poster's thread, just to put it back on track.  She asks a very good question and this leads us into a fascinating thread, in my opinion.


Good point.  However, I personally like the fact that the conversations on many Senior Forums threads often veer off into unexpected directions.  I find it fascinating that so many of us are prompted by the original post to correlate that with other interesting information and observations.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 18, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Because God was actually created in man's image, not the other way around.. That's why he has so many  of man's vicious sides, like anger, revenge, etc. the real God if there is one probably can't believe what we've come up with. Think about it, God speaks of women being subservient to their men. Why is that? Because that's what the men of the time who invented the myth thought about women. Do you really think God thinks of women as second class citizens?


You are correct.  It's an evolutionary thing.  Like most other animals, because of the male-female dichotomy, the male assumes a superior attitude, like with the great apes for example.


----------



## spectratg (Jun 18, 2022)

Knight said:


> Do you actually believe the world is as intended in John 3:16,17.  Is this is your idea of a saved world.
> 
> As for the eternal life the promise that goes both ways. Eternally in hell or on the golden streets.  I'm of the opinion you die & that's it you become worm food if not cremated.


I agree with you.  Death is the inevitable end of our existence, of our individual consciousness.  

Been watching some videos on Youtube about different concepts regarding the multiverse.  Our feeble minds, individually and collectively, cannot grasp the immensity of our universe.  But beyond even that, the *Reality* of existence (something rather than nothing) *may be *eternal and infinite where everything is possible and even inevitable.  So for me personally, I have the hope that somehow I may be reunited with my wife, Somewhere and Somewhen.


----------



## Knight (Jun 18, 2022)

spectratg said:


> I agree with you.  Death is the inevitable end of our existence, of our individual consciousness.
> 
> Been watching some videos on Youtube about different concepts regarding the multiverse.  Our feeble minds, individually and collectively, cannot grasp the immensity of our universe.  But beyond even that, the *Reality* of existence (something rather than nothing) *may be *eternal and infinite where everything is possible and even inevitable.  So for me personally, I have the hope that somehow I may be reunited with my wife, Somewhere and Somewhen.


The immensity of our universe is another one of my thoughts. No doubt the expanse is beyond what we can grasp.

So with that in mind & the story that "God" made heaven & earth. That as a concept means that heaven & earth didn't exist. That puts "God" outside of our universe. 

Why outside ?  

Being reunited sounds like a nice idea. That meeting would require being sentient, then require cataloging billions by a supernatural being that is billions of years old has the task .

That same being that hasn't interfered with mankind for the last two thousand years.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Jun 18, 2022)

I wondered where to post this one...  but here's a nice little song by the 70's band Stackridge.  It's called "There is no refuge"


----------



## spectratg (Jun 18, 2022)

Knight said:


> Being reunited sounds like a nice idea. That meeting would require being sentient, then require cataloging billions by a supernatural being that is billions of years old has the task .
> 
> That same being that hasn't interfered with mankind for the last two thousand years.



I don't think that it requires a supernatural being.  If these theories about Reality/Multiverse/Existence are true, an eternity and infinity of all possible outcomes, then than makes my hope as something that I can hold onto.  Note that I don't allege that they are true, just posited as an if/then conjecture.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> But why was this even necessary?


I have no idea

If were up to me, I'd have cleaned the slate long ago


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 18, 2022)

spectratg said:


> You are correct.  It's an evolutionary thing.  Like most other animals, because of the male-female dichotomy, the male assumes a superior attitude, like with the great apes for example.


This might be a new thread some day - about women in the bible.  I did a search of both the old and new testaments and found more women mentioned than I remembered.  But, I wasn't counting when I read them straight through!


----------



## spectratg (Jun 18, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Being intelligent enough to create weapons is exactly why we are apex predators.



Exactly right!  There was once an apex predator named saber-tooth tiger who preyed on (among other animals) the human animal.  So what did the human animal do?  We learned to hunt together, to communicate, and to invent spears that allowed us to eliminate the threat from the face of the earth.  (Yea okay there were other factors involved too, like climate change.)

We are the Apex Predator on the planet Earth; we can hunt and have hunted other animals to extinction.

However, bacteria and (especially viruses) seem to be evolving as fast as our ability to try to keep them in check.  Mother Nature (not Father God) may yet have the last laugh.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 18, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> There is no 'eternal hell'
> Nothing in The Bible supports that
> There's just eternal death.....separation
> Sleep...worm food.


Gary, may I ask what version of the bible you use?  I was taught that there is an eternal hell - and my virtuous father would be there.

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." - Mark 9:43


----------



## Knight (Jun 18, 2022)

From my post

So with that in mind & the story that "God" made heaven & earth. That as a concept means that heaven & earth didn't exist. That puts "God" outside of our universe.

Why outside ?

I guess understanding that to make something that isn't there you have to be outside of whatever, & it's not something to be thought about.

I asked why with no hazarding a guess. It would have to be guess work.

What would be wrong with the place you were or was it so bad that trying again was the only option? Considering the general attitude that our planets inhabitants don't function all that well together. IMO this would be a failure that no longer required watching for the last 2000 years.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Includes how the universe was created by The Creator: 
"Bible Search   ... Search results for: universe
62 verses found. Showing up to 25."
https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=universe
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Finally, there is the scriptural contention, and of the three it alone makes sense: the universe was created by an uncaused First Cause greater than itself. Time, space, and the universe have not always existed, but God has always existed, and God’s existence is the cause for the existence of all else that exists. While science demands that the universe had to have a beginning, nothing philosophically or scripturally demands that the cause of the universe had to have a beginning."

https://www.faithgateway.com/did-god-create-everything-out-of-nothing/


----------



## Knight (Jun 18, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Includes how the universe was created by The Creator:
> "Bible Search   ... Search results for: universe
> 62 verses found. Showing up to 25."
> https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=universe
> ...


Round & round it goes.

If nothing was there it had to be created from outside. So why create something if something already exists where a creator creates from?

Was this an experiment that failed causing the creator to kill everyone except Noah & his family? How did that work out?


----------



## grahamg (Jun 18, 2022)

Knight said:


> Round & round it goes.
> If nothing was there it had to be created from outside. So why create something if something already exists where a creator creates from?
> Was this an experiment that failed causing the creator to kill everyone except Noah & his family? How did that work out?


I agree we've all got more to think about than that haven't we, (or we should have!).


----------



## grahamg (Jun 18, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> Think about it, back in the early days the Kings (and the religious elite like cardinals and the Pope) lived like, well Kings. They had all the best food, wine, and yes, women while the masses starved and suffered. How do you keep them from revolting? You create an imaginary Heaven where if you just suffer some now  you will live like a king yourself in another life. And it worked like a charm for the most part.


I've read what you describe in an anarchist diagram showing hierachies, (in a Marilyn Manson book I believe), but you shouldn't ignore the way religions such as Christianity were seen as a threat to begin with, and I'd argue have at times provided a check on absolute power.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Gary, may I ask what version of the bible you use? I was taught that there is an eternal hell - and my virtuous father would be there.
> 
> "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
> 
> ...



Gary, may I ask what version of the bible you use?

_I lean toward the New KJV_ 

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

“Eternal punishment" (they're not coming back to life)


"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." - Mark 9:43

Yes, the fire will consume them, it will not be quenched

Eternal hell, torment forever, is a controversial subject

It takes some 'line upon line' precept upon precept' study to come to some conclusions

(That's somewhere in Isaiah)


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> It takes some 'line upon line' precept upon precept' study to come to some conclusions


Actually not.  Remember the apostles,  specifically for one example Simon bar jona /Peter/  ? 

How did Jesus reveal , in the Gospels, that the apostle Peter ,  and little children,  learned the truth,  learned Yeshua is the Messiah ?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Actually not. Remember the apostles, specifically for one example Simon bar jona /Peter/ ?
> 
> How did Jesus say he , and little children, learned the truth, learned Yeshua is the Messiah ?


Please give me some texts
and elaborate a bit more
(I have no idea what you're saying)


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Please give me some texts
> and elaborate a bit more
> (I have not idea what you're saying)


King James Bible
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 Jesus asked the apostles who others said that Jesus is/was.   The apostles replied some say a prophet, some say Yochanan the Immerser,  and some say Elijah/or Elisha/  the prophet returned. 
Then Jesus asked Simon barjona/Peter/  who do you say I am ?
Peter answered truthfully and correctly:  You are the Christ/Messiah/ Son of the Living Elohim/Creator.

Jesus told Peter then - blessed you are Simon barjona, flesh and blood/study and reading and human teachers and ways/  has not revealed this to you,  but your Father in Heaven Revealed it to you.
=--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from biblegateway.com,   many translations available to compare there,  none contradicting the others.
Matthew 16:17      Bible​17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
MSG
Jesus came back, “God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn’t get that answer out of books or from teachers. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In another place,  while praying out loud eyes opened toward heaven/the sky/
Jesus Praised the Father for Revealing Salvation and everything concerning Salvation to little children/infants, and for hiding it from the educated ones,  because thus it is His Good Pleasure so to do/understand that the educated ones were the ones proud, defiant, rebellious then and today, who rejected the Messiah/  ....


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2022)

@Just Jeff

Forgive me
I have no idea where yer going with all this

And that's OK
I certainly don't know or understand everything

I'm just glad you're studying The Word

And if your studies are changing your character, that's the big one

By beholding we are changed

2 CORINTHIANS 3:18
But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> @Just Jeff
> 
> Forgive me
> I have no idea where yer going with all this
> ...


Naturally, or simply,   we cannot learn /experientially/ the truth by studying books , nor from human teachers.   

The Heavenly Creator has Revealed , as He Pleases, that He Reveals the Truth as He Pleases , to whomever He Pleases.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 18, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Includes how the universe was created by The Creator:
> "Bible Search   ... Search results for: universe
> 62 verses found. Showing up to 25."
> https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=universe
> ...


From your second link:  "Finally, the doctrine of creation out of nothing underscores the reality that God alone is omnipotent. A God who creates out of eternally existing matter is less than the omnipotent Sovereign of the universe who spoke, and all that is leaped into existence."

This is the second option.  My question is, why would an omnipotent designer create a planet with natural disasters?

The smallest bit of matter (so small that science is currently unable to measure it accurately) is the quark.  If we assume that a god-creator always existed prior to the creation of the universe, why can't we assume that matter always existed, (perhaps so small that it is undetectable) and natural dynamic forces (Big Bang) set things in motion?


Gary O' said:


> Gary, may I ask what version of the bible you use?
> 
> _I lean toward the New KJV_
> 
> ...


It's just that it seems to me that it conflicts with what you previously said: 
Gary O' said:
"There is no 'eternal hell'
Nothing in The Bible supports that."

- and many of the bible passages are controversial subjects. I know in the church that I attended, they started to 'soften' the life-in-a burning hell concept by the time I left.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> The smallest bit of matter (so small that science is currently unable to measure it accurately) is the quark. If we assume that a god-creator always existed prior to the creation of the universe, why can't we assume that matter always existed, (perhaps so small that it is undetectable) and natural dynamic forces (Big Bang) set things in motion?


It is life and death better if nothing is assumed.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 18, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> My question is, why would an omnipotent designer create a planet with natural disasters?


I don't know, why would He ?


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> It's just that it seems to me that it conflicts with what you previously said:
> Gary O' said:
> "There is no 'eternal hell'
> Nothing in The Bible supports that."


Yeah, that was a bit of a broad stroke
Forgive me for that
I'm in a bible study involving that very subject

Pardon my play on words, but it hasn't been a burning desire of mine to study whether or not there's a hell where folks are tormented forever

But, I'm quite interested now

I'd like to think not........not by the God of love
But, that's just my thought
A few verses to substantiate that, but there's other texts

like

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. *There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,* or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

"The smoke of their torment arising forever" is not a problem.
Could be the only left over reminder of the event

It's the rest of the verse that I don't understand

I'm in conversation with some scholars
Heh, they go deeper than I ever hope to go...


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> I wondered where to post this one...  but here's a nice little song by the 70's band Stackridge.  It's called "There is no refuge"


I had trouble hearing the words, so here are the lyrics:  (I could personally relate, though I went through this much earlier in life.  The final line reminded me of a thread that I started  about situation ethics, reflecting the moral basis of theologian Joseph F. Fletcher's book.  Simply put, _love_ should be the guiding principle in ethics.)  
There Is No Refuge Lyrics​Since my sixteenth birthday
Doubts have plagued my sleep
Each yawning daybreak found me hopeless
Writhing underneath the sheets;
I searched four years to find myself
Some purpose to this life
Dividing wrong from right
Even mere consciousness caused such pain

Walking through the woodland;
Tender springtime leaves;
Those little flowers in the meadow
Speak of innocence and peace:
There is no refuge in this world
No saviour, "Self", nor soul
Discarding every goal
When understanding comes -
There is love


----------



## Della (Jun 19, 2022)

Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine.   We'll understand it all by and by.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 19, 2022)

Bottom line, there's plenty of room for doubt
However, there's hope
Throughout The Word
Throughout living, learning, listening

This experience has changed me
It has given me joy, peace....heh, even patience (that's a bit of a miracle)

There's nothing else on this planet that has done that

I won't soon let that go


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 19, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Those little flowers in the meadow
> Speak of innocence and peace:





Em in Ohio said:


> When understanding comes -
> There is love


Yes.  Let it be so.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 19, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Bottom line, there's plenty of room for doubt
> However, there's hope. Throughout The Word. Throughout living, learning, listening. This experience has changed me
> It has given me joy, peace....heh, even patience (that's a bit of a miracle)
> There's nothing else on this planet that has done that, I won't soon let that go


There is a line or phrase that goes "Faith, Hope, and Love, are important, and the greatest of these is "Love" (apologies I can't remember it properly, but you're lucky to have those three elements in your life, especially the third, and maybe we can't live or be truly alive without at least one of them!


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 19, 2022)

grahamg said:


> There is a line or phrase that goes "Faith, Hope, and Love, are important, and the greatest of these is "Love" (


1Corinthians 13: 12-13

Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> 1Corinthians 13: 12-13
> 
> Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.



The real quote is so much better, especially when set in context:

1.Corinthians 13: 12-13 "Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."

If you'll forgive me I'll add something more about "love", (the word our UK family law fails to use, and legal practitioners try to dissuade those parents entering the system for their assistance not to use!).

"Denial of love" to be shown to the excluded parent cannot be included in the deliberations of those assessing whether or not to lift a finger to assist someone being checked out of their children's lives, (for no good reason, such as abuse etc.).

I've read an old-ish document where parents enjoying the companionship (and maybe love) does get a mention, but I think it was in a review produced by a retiring top family court judge, (HHJ Wilson maybe twenty or more years ago - I found it by an interrogation our government website dealing with divorce and children, and found only six entries or documents where the word love was mentioned).


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 20, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I found it by an interrogation our government website dealing with divorce and children, and found only six entries or documents where the word love was mentioned).


Happening for centuries already,  much much moreso today, every day.

www.biblegateway.com › passage › ?search=Matthew+24:12-14&version=CJB
and many people's love will grow cold - Bible Gateway​Matthew 24:12-14 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 12 and many *people's* *love* will grow *cold* because of increased distance from Torah. 13 But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 14 And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come.


https://www.biblegateway.com › passage › ?search=Matthew 24:12&version=NASB
Matthew 24:12 NASB - Bible Gateway​Because lawlessness is increased, *most* *people's* *love* will grow *cold*. Because lawlessness is increased, *most* *people's* *love* will grow *cold*. Back to classic site · Take a Tour. Read the Bible; Reading Plans ... Matthew 24:12 Lit the *love* of many; Matthew 24:12 in all English translations. New American Standard Bible (NASB)


https://www.biblegateway.com › passage › ?search=Matthew 24:12&version=NASB1995
Matthew 24:12 NASB1995 - Because lawlessness is increased, most - Bible ...​12 Because lawlessness is increased, *most* *people's* *love* will grow *cold*. Read full chapter. Footnotes. Matthew 24:12 Lit the *love* of many; Matthew 24:12 in all English translations. Matthew 23. Matthew 25. New American Standard Bible 1995 (NASB1995)


----------



## Pepper (Jun 20, 2022)

I never heard of Complete Jewish Bible before.  Thank you @Just Jeff


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 20, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I never heard of Complete Jewish Bible before.  Thank you @Just Jeff


yw @Pepper @peppermint (  ) It is great overall and also for to see aspects of language and life in Jewish ways of thought and 'culture'.  
Biblegateway also have more then twenty, maybe forty translations to compare.  Any of them as far as seen is fine.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2022)

This one has some resonance for me obviously:


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 20, 2022)

grahamg said:


> This one has some resonance for me ....


www.biblegateway.com › verse › en › Malachi 4:6
Malachi 4:6 - Bible Gateway​He will encourage *fathers* and their children to *return* *to* me, *so that I will not come and strike the earth with judgment.*" NIRV 

Elijah will bring peace between parents and their children. He will also bring peace between children and their parents.

 If that does not happen, I will come. And *I will completely destroy the land*." NIV


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 20, 2022)

"Young's Literal Translation
And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!"

@chic  ,  the good news is that at least some will be recovered before the land is utterly smitten.  Not everyone will be broken forever.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 21, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> "Young's Literal Translation
> And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!"
> 
> @chic  ,  the good news is that at least some will be recovered before the land is utterly smitten.  Not everyone will be broken forever.


What is tricky for me is some of those children turning their backs on their fathers are just that "children" but woe betide you if you suggest what they're saying should not be taken over the word of a decent loving father, "they must be listened to and taken seriously" the law decrees, (or those administering it, "because that's in their best interests"!).

You are very aware of saying from the bible, and passages from the bible, where in the bible does it say, "the child's interests must come first", (or be paramount over everything else)?

My guess is it does not say such a thing, not least because ultimately there is no God in a system where the child becomes set above all else, (and the power of that phrase I keep quoting about children's interests coming first is said to have almost "mystical power" according to expert observers of family law).

A fellow fathers rights campaigner told me he once told the judge deliberating over his contact with his three boys, "don't play God with my children", and to an extent usurping loving fathers is playing God, deciding who can show love to their children and fulfill the role good/decent dads should be able to decide for themselves how to fulfill!


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 24, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> - and many of the bible passages are controversial subjects. I know in the church that I attended, they started to 'soften' the life-in-a burning hell concept by the time I left.


I bit of an update in regard to my studies


Matt 10:28 says 
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can *destroy *both soul and body in hell.
and Rev 20 says "fire came down and devoured them" . 
Ezek 28 says even Satan himself is "reduced to ashes" and "will be no more forever". 

Sure seems the *torment *forever thing isn't holding up, scripture wise.
I'm still studying, however.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 24, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I bit of an update in regard to my studies
> 
> 
> Matt 10:28 says
> ...


Bibles are definitely good for at least one thing - critical analysis!  But as a compilation goes, it could certainly have done a better job with consistency and clarity, in my opinion.  It is fascinating to see the different ways folks interpret passages. Enjoy your studies!


----------



## Knight (Jun 24, 2022)

The bible as a source of stories has some really interesting tales.  I wonder though why Jesus was never associated with female companionship. Always with men & not military men.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 24, 2022)

Knight said:


> The bible as a source of stories has some really interesting tales.  I wonder though why Jesus was never associated with female companionship. Always with men & not military men.


This is another debate - Mary Magdalene's role in his life.

https://www.history.com/news/mary-m...se texts, known,more than the other disciples.

Let us know your conclusion.


----------



## Patricia (Jun 24, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> Well right now my PLAN is to visit the coffee shop
> anyone care to join me...ttfn
> View attachment 225055
> [/QUOTE
> Yes, I need coffee too, but I'm posting on the 24th.


----------



## chic (Jun 24, 2022)

Knight said:


> The bible as a source of stories has some really interesting tales.  I wonder though why Jesus was never associated with female companionship. Always with men & not military men.


Mary Magdelene?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 24, 2022)

chic said:


> Mary Magdelene?


According to what I was taught in youth, she was a woman of ill repute.  Other sources say she was a favored disciple of Jesus.  Still others contend that they were married.


----------



## Mizmo (Jun 24, 2022)

Yes I was taught she came to him and confessed and  became a disciple 
 Others believe they were married and she is reckoned to be the women next to him in Da Vinci's painting of the last supper.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 24, 2022)

He never chose women to teach men nor to in any way break a commandment at all, ever. 

Notice, though, that the first ones Jesus appeared to after the Resurrection were women.

  I think they were also the first ones to go to the grave to anoint Him with various ointments , when they thought He was still in the grave.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Bibles are definitely good for at least one thing - critical analysis!  But as a compilation goes, it could certainly have done a better job with consistency and clarity, in my opinion.  It is fascinating to see the different ways folks interpret passages. Enjoy your studies!


You're going some if you think anyone could have done a better job as seen through the eyes of a modern western society upbringing, where technology and luxuries are all around to make our lives easier, and we don't really have to face most of the painful realities they faced 2k years ago!


----------



## chic (Jun 24, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> According to what I was taught in youth, she was a woman of ill repute.  Other sources say she was a favored disciple of Jesus.  Still others contend that they were married.


Yes, I've heard the same.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 25, 2022)

The feminine seeming personage in The Last Supper is John, "the “disciple Jesus loved” (John 13:23)". Leonardo was gay and I believe he was suggesting Jesus was too.  His artistic interpretation is based on his need to suggest if Jesus is gay then nothing wrong with it.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 25, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I bit of an update in regard to my studies
> 
> 
> Matt 10:28 says
> ...


You're way ahead of me in the bible studies stakes, though I can boast to having been a star pupil as a teenagers during confirmation classes!


----------



## grahamg (Jun 25, 2022)

Knight said:


> The bible as a source of stories has some really interesting tales.  I wonder though why Jesus was never associated with female companionship. Always with men & not military men.


If you are three things in one, (human being, god, and holy spirit), you've surely covered all the ground there is to cover in this world and the next, and I believe modern scholars of the bible/Christianity say there was great assertiveness shown, turning over the tables of the money lenders and the like!


----------



## Michael Z (Jun 25, 2022)

I believe God has a plan for my life. But when I make my own choices, sometimes bad ones, God has a plan for that route as well. I believe that God knows every possible choice I can make and the result of that choice as well. So God is always in control even though I have free will.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The feminine seeming personage in The Last Supper is John, "the “disciple Jesus loved” (John 13:23)". Leonardo was gay and I believe he was suggesting Jesus was too.  His artistic interpretation is based on his need to suggest if Jesus is gay then nothing wrong with it.


Not knowing anything of da Vinci's sex life (nor that of Jesus), I'd be fine with that, though I expect you may get a lot of backlash.  I often wondered if it was Mary Magdalen.  Either way, it's artistic license, eh?


----------



## Pepper (Jun 25, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Not knowing anything of da Vinci's sex life (nor that of Jesus), I'd be fine with that, though I expect you may get a lot of backlash.  I often wondered if it was Mary Magdalen.  Either way, it's artistic license, eh?


Didn't mean to say Jesus was gay, how do I know, but Leonardo was and was taking artistic license.


----------



## Knight (Jun 25, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> This is another debate - Mary Magdalene's role in his life.
> 
> https://www.history.com/news/mary-magdalene-jesus-wife-prostitute-saint#:~:text=Mary Magdalene as Jesus's wife&text=One of these texts, known,more than the other disciples.
> 
> Let us know your conclusion.


My conclusion is pretty much what was in the article. Like bible stories it's people trying to describe the unknown. 

Quote
"The prostitute and the wife theories may have been around for centuries, but they are legends and traditions that grew up long after the fact, he emphasizes: “Neither of them [is] rooted in the Bible itself.” 

It's interesting how Just Jeff was angry & Grahamg went in a different direction completely. 

Just Jeff was angry why?

Grahamg pointed out assertiveness why? 

As a female Mary Magdalene may have been a cover for what was considered taboo back then. That taboo was in place for centuries due to interpretation from what was a story in the bible.

Not until recently was that taboo lifted, or at least for most. There are still some Christians that don't quite get it that people are people.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 25, 2022)

The normal state of men & women in those days was to be married.  Not being married would cause more comment than being married, which would require none.  Not speaking of his marital state is more of an indication he was probably married.

There is no clear reason to suggest MM was a prostitute.  That was another woman, not MM.


----------



## Mizmo (Jun 25, 2022)

All these different interpretations of the bible and it stories  of life are so intriguing...makes me wonder how you all can believe in them
...but, to each his own.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 25, 2022)

Violence in the New Testament:  https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/violence-in-the-new-testament

"While Revelation is often treated as an outlier, it is better to understand this book as fully at home within New Testament apocalyptic longing for God’s violent judgment against non-believers. Paul imagines Christ at the end of time, handing over the kingdom to God, but only _after _“he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power” (1Cor 15:24)." 

"2Thess 1:5-10 promises a final judgement with Jesus revealed “in flaming fire,” and inflicting the “punishment of eternal destruction.” Luke’s parable of the nobleman’s return, likely meant to represent Jesus’s second coming, calls for his enemies to be brought forward and slaughtered in his presence (Luke 19:27)."

I see a conflict between the view that Jesus advocated turning the other cheek and these passages.  Apparently, different writers had different opinions and assessments on the nature and characteristics of Jesus. 
Matthew 5:38-40  
New International Version​"38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5:38-40&version=NIV​


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The normal state of men & women in those days was to be married.  Not being married would cause more comment than being married, which would require none.  Not speaking of his marital state is more of an indication he was probably married.
> 
> There is no clear reason to suggest MM was a prostitute.  That was another woman, not MM.


This explains the discrepancy:*  The version of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute held on for centuries after Pope Gregory the Great made it official in his sixth-century sermon*, though neither Orthodoxy nor Protestantism adopted it when those faiths later split from the Catholic Church. Apr 2, 2021

I was raised Catholic.
Who Was Mary Magdalene: Wife, Prostitute or None of the ...​https://www.history.com › news › mary-magdalene-jesus-...


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 25, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> *The version of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute held on for centuries after Pope Gregory the Great made it official in his sixth-century sermon*, though neither Orthodoxy nor Protestantism adopted it when those faiths later split from the Catholic Church. Apr 2, 2021


It's quite possible Mary Magdaline was the woman in this text;

John 8:1-11

English Standard Version
​8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]

What He wrote in the sand is not known, but it stands to reason it was the personal sins of each of the accusers


----------



## David777 (Jun 25, 2022)

@Em in Ohio >>_>Luke’s parable of the nobleman’s return, likely meant to represent Jesus’s second coming, calls for his enemies to be brought forward and slaughtered in his presence (Luke 19:27)."_

"._..calls for his enemies to be brought forward and slaughtered in his presence_."  Or more logically as a moral vehicle in some vague way, severely punished.  To insist Jesus's situation must reflect the hypothetical moral story with that level of punishment detail, lacks logical gramatical intent. 

The speculative Mary Magdalene theories without any Bible support actually show how desperate some Jesus haters have been from earliest periods to dirty his legacy trying to bring him down to the level of foul sinners they were.  Jesus was rather clear he knew who he was at the Transfiguration and also by the end of all 4 gospels that he was the Son of God.  If so, being married or having Earthly children, would matter little.   Oh, but that's the point isn't it, to sew doubt in otherwise dominantly accepted scripture.  The Gospel of Phillip is a 3rd Century AD Gnostic creation among a list of other phony books with obvious agendas.  The fact they dishonestly used apostle names as authors tends to show the writers purposely were trying to manipulate their audience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Philip

There is much more where that creative Christianity book industry for the sake of various false dogmas came from.  Much more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch


----------



## Knight (Jun 25, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> It's quite possible Mary Magdaline was the woman in this text;
> 
> John 8:1-11​​English Standard Version​​​8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]]
> 
> What He wrote in the sand is not known, but it stands to reason it was the personal sins of each of the accusers


The version of this “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” I heard was.

WHAM a large stone struck the woman.

Jesus turned & said 

Mother sometimes you make me so mad.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 25, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> It's quite possible Mary Magdaline was the woman in this text;



There is absolutely no evidence it was she and no real reason to think so.


Gary O' said:


> ​


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> There is absolutely no evidence it was she and no real reason to think so.


No, there's nothing to substantiate that thought.
However, the reason would be the dedication of Mary's seems to reflect that of the woman's gratitude 

But

yer right

No hard evidence


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 25, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I was raised Catholic


As a side note to this thread

There's an old joke that was fun to repeat;

A group of Catholics were walking thru heaven
and came to a wall

One asked St Peter what the wall was for

'Oh, yeah, on the other side of that wall are the protestants'
'They think they're the only ones here'

Anyway, in this study of The Word
I've discovered in as many walks of life there are on this planet, so it will be in the new earth

I do love that


----------



## Geezer Garage (Jun 25, 2022)

I'm just glad somebody has a plan.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 25, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I'm just glad somebody has a plan.


Baldrick said he had a plan just before his master Captain Blackadder and he went "over the top" but no one cared to hear it!


----------



## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Sure seems the *torment *forever thing isn't holding up, scripture wise.
> I'm still studying, however.


Just now ran across a few more verses this morning


*1* For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. Psalm 37:10

For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. Obadiah 16


----------



## Patricia (Jul 31, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Baldrick said he had a plan just before his master Captain Blackadder and he went "over the top" but no one cared to hear it!


A couple of days ago, I mentioned that your speech pattern, writing, was different that than the others, regardless there are people from your area of the world on the forum. Just now when I noticed your post above Gary O, I realized the two of you both have an unusual language in wording style. Your threads the language is fluent and Gary more broken but ... Look on your earlier date threads, as the comment you made today doesn't so much reflect what I'm talking about that seemed consistent in your language writing earlier on.  Are you two from the same area? What is the language difference from other people from the UK?


----------



## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2022)

Patricia said:


> and Gary more broken


I tend to break most the English grammar rules

But
That's jus' me

As for Grahammy?
He's his own bard
Of which, there's only one


----------



## squatting dog (Jul 31, 2022)

Does God have a plan? Of course he does. 

Me:  Hey God.
God:  Hello, my love.
Me:  I'm falling apart. Can you put me back together?
God:  I would rather not.
Me:  Why?
God:  Because you aren't a puzzle.
Me:  What about all of the pieces of my life that are falling down onto the ground?
God:  Let them stay there for a while. They fell off for a reason. Take some time and decide if you need any of those pieces back.
Me:  You don't understand! I'm breaking down!
God:  No - you don't understand. You are breaking through. What you are feeling are just growing pains. You are shedding the things and the people in your life that are holding you back. You aren't falling apart. You are falling into place. Relax. Take some deep breaths and allow those things you don't need anymore to fall off of you. Quit holding onto the pieces that don't fit you anymore. Let them fall off.
Let them go.
Me:  Once I start doing that, what will be left of me?
God:  Only the very best pieces of you.
Me:  I'm scared of changing.
God:  I keep telling you - YOU AREN'T CHANGING!! YOU ARE BECOMING!
Me:  Becoming who?
God:  Becoming who I created you to be! A person of light and love and charity and hope and courage and joy and mercy and grace and compassion. I made you for more than the shallow pieces you have decided adorn yourself with that you cling to with such greed and fear.
Let those things fall off of you. I love you! Don't change! Become! Become! Become! Become who I made you to be. I'm going to keep telling you this until you remember it.
Me:  There goes another piece.
God:  Yep. Let it be.
Me:  So...I'm not broken?
God:  No - but you are breaking like the dawn. It's a new day. Become!! Become!!


----------



## Sunny (Jul 31, 2022)

Having "a plan" is something that humans do. The question is meaningless. There is absolutely no evidence that there is a human-like entity somewhere up there, making "plans," as if he's one of the guys.

The new Webb telescope gives us an even more astonishing perspective on the size and majesty of the universe. Every one of those bright spots is a galaxy, containing millions (or billions?) of stars. These entities are light years apart from each other. We live in a mid-size galaxy, on a small planet, probably one of trillions of other similar planets. And we are a strange form of animal life that has conjured up a fictitious being that we endow with all sorts of human characteristics, who is running this incredibly gigantic universe but somehow makes "plans," cares which football team wins the game, and so on. The people who believe this stuff do so because they have been taught to believe it, and in many cases have had fear instilled in them if they doubt any of it. It's a system of control of other people. But no one knows any more than you do about the ultimate meaning of the universe, even if they claim to.

If you want to see God's "plan," just google the James Webb telescope images.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jul 31, 2022)

God has a plan? Define god? Is God the Christian version of god or perhaps god is as Native Americans view god? Christian’s see the world differently as god has a plan. I don’t know enough about god to know god exists or does not exist.
I was raised on Christianity that was detrimental to my growth without knowledge of the harm it caused. Only when I rejected Christianity and the Bible I realized the weight I carried after it was gone.


----------



## Geezer Garage (Jul 31, 2022)

All that I know, is that I don't know, but that is not a bad place to start from. I choose to follow my instincts on this matter, and they tell me there is something. What, I have no idea, but I speak to it daily, and it seems to work for me.


----------



## sch404 (Jul 31, 2022)

God selfie


----------



## Paco Dennis (Jul 31, 2022)

or


----------



## Paco Dennis (Jul 31, 2022)

Now we can fill in the blank canvasses with our imaginations.


----------



## chic (Jul 31, 2022)

squatting dog said:


> Does God have a plan? Of course he does.
> 
> Me:  Hey God.
> God:  Hello, my love.
> ...


And some people die from being broken. Great plan.


----------



## dko1951 (Jul 31, 2022)

spectratg said:


> We have survived so long because of our large forebrain, through evolution, which took 4.5 billion years to get there.  We are now the apex predator, the ruler of the planet which is why we claim (self-appointed) to have dominion over every other species.  Dominion in this case the destruction of these other species.  "*The Holocene extinction, otherwise referred to as the sixth mass extinction or Anthropocene extinction*, is an ongoing extinction event of species during the present Holocene epoch (with the more recent time sometimes called Anthropocene) as a result of human activity."  We also manage massacre of other members of our own species, in massive numbers.


Your post is very intriguing. You are obviously well read and have a realistic perspective regarding this thread. I would love to know about some of your reading that has formed and given you this perspective. Would you share some of that with us. I am being genuine in this request. If you would, please respond with a reply, it would be much appreciated.


----------



## Della (Jul 31, 2022)

Sunny said:


> The people who believe this stuff do so because they have been taught to believe it, and in many cases have had fear instilled in them if they doubt any of it. It's a system of control of other people. But no one knows any more than you do about the ultimate meaning of the universe, even if they claim to.


Some people look at the telescope images of the Universe and are so in awe of the majesty and vastness of it all they believe there must be a creator behind it all.  Other people look at the same pictures and say, I didn't see God,  just billions of stars, so God must not exist. By that system cars and antelopes don't exist either.

If religion is a system of control of other people, it's not working half as well as Instagram influencers and not generating as much fear as conspiracy theories on message boards.
----------

As for Jesus being gay or having an affair with Mary Magdalene.  Just no.  He was first and foremost a devout Jew who followed The Law, he admonished people in his sermons to not only obey the commandments, but to take them a step further. to follow not only the letter of The Law but the spirit of The Law.  For example he said, not only don't commit adultery, don't even lust in your heart.  If he had broken commandments his enemies would have been all over it and it would have been brought up during his trial.


----------



## Knight (Jul 31, 2022)

Della said:


> Some people look at the telescope images of the Universe and are so in awe of the majesty and vastness of it all they believe there must be a creator behind it all.  Other people look at the same pictures and say, I didn't see God,  just billions of stars, so God must not exist. By that system cars and antelopes don't exist either.


Let's suppose you are going to create as [ to make or bring into existence]  a box,  to create that box you have to recognize that  box was never there. 

So given the common understanding of create & the new info the Webb telescope provides concerning the heavens that were supposedly created. Is it realistic to think that a being billions of years old  outside that massive expanse is somehow planning what over 7 billion inhabitants of earth are going to experience?


----------



## Della (Jul 31, 2022)

Knight said:


> Let's suppose you are going to create as [ to make or bring into existence]  a box,  to create that box you have to recognize that  box was never there.
> 
> So given the common understanding of create & the new info the Webb telescope provides concerning the heavens that were supposedly created. Is it realistic to think that a being billions of years old  outside that massive expanse is somehow planning what over 7 billion inhabitants of earth are going to experience?


Creating and having a plan are two different things.  I believe there was or is a Creator.  Whether or not this creator had a plan for us or not, I don't know.


----------



## chic (Jul 31, 2022)

Della said:


> Creating and having a plan are two different things.  I believe there was or is a Creator.  Whether or not this creator had a plan for us or not, I don't know.


Me neither and that is the important question.


----------



## ElCastor (Jul 31, 2022)

Pepper said:


> There is no plan.  There is no god.


Believe what you wish, but in my honest opinion the nature and vastness of the universe is beyond our comprehension. We may know a great deal, but not all by a long shot, so why should we presume to scorn beliefs that bring joy and understanding to so many of our friends and neighbors? That is why I am an agnostic.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Jul 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Believe what you wish, but in my honest opinion the nature and vastness of the universe is beyond our comprehension. We may know a great deal, but not all by a long shot, so why should we presume to scorn beliefs that bring joy and understanding to so many of our friends and neighbors? That is why I am an agnostic.


I respect all ideas too whether I agree or not. There are so many theories and beliefs. I decided perhaps they are all true for whoever believes them. And they can change.  After all we live in a wonderous universe which we do not yet fully comprehend so maybe we are creators of our own worlds.. LOL at different times and circumstances we certainly can create chaos or happiness for ourselves and for others....


----------



## Serenity4321 (Jul 31, 2022)

chic said:


> And some people die from being broken. Great plan.


But..maybe they live again to have another opportunity to  learn...    I was never a fan of reincarnation but to me, it seems fair. There is just too much magnificence in the world  for this to be 'It"


----------



## Pepper (Jul 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Believe what you wish, but in my honest opinion the nature and vastness of the universe is beyond our comprehension. We may know a great deal, but not all by a long shot, so why should we presume to scorn beliefs that bring joy and understanding to so many of our friends and neighbors? That is why I am an agnostic.


Bully for you.


----------



## Knight (Jul 31, 2022)

Della said:


> Creating and having a plan are two different things.  I believe there was or is a Creator.  Whether or not this creator had a plan for us or not, I don't know.


Creation by a sentient being <--- would have had to take place billions of years ago. While still outside the "creation" the creator according to those with faith did plan & continues to plan for billions of people. If that gives you comfort then I am happy for you. I could be wrong but that those that didn't fare to well in the plan probably didn't/don't find the same comfort


----------



## Della (Jul 31, 2022)

Knight said:


> Creation by a sentient being <--- would have had to take place billions of years ago. While still outside the "creation" the creator according to those with faith did plan & continues to plan for billions of people. If that gives you comfort then I am happy for you. I could be wrong but that those that didn't fare to well in the plan probably didn't/don't find the same comfort


I know many, many people who didn't fare too well in the plan who have found much comfort from their faith.  They think things will be better at the end of this life.  You keep mentioning "billions of years ago"  but they are expecting to live in a better place for billions of years into the future.


----------



## Knight (Jul 31, 2022)

Della said:


> I know many, many people who didn't fare too well in the plan who have found much comfort from their faith.  They think things will be better at the end of this life.  You keep mentioning "billions of years ago"  but they are expecting to live in a better place for billions of years into the future.


Kind of makes a person wonder what they will think when they see all the misery taking place doesn't it. Like who is responsible?


----------



## ElCastor (Jul 31, 2022)

Knight said:


> Creation by a sentient being <--- would have had to take place billions of years ago.


Not necessarily. Try Googling “We live in a simulation”. You will get a lot of hits.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jul 31, 2022)

_Words_ can not prove the existence of any sentient, all-powerful god-beings.  They do make a handy indoctrination tool.


----------



## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2022)

Sunny said:


> The people who believe this stuff do so because they have been taught to believe it, and in many cases have had fear instilled in them if they doubt any of it. It's a system of control of other people.


I've gotta whole heartily agree with you @Sunny 

Certain types of teaching/learning is quite harmful

I wrote something in wunna my old threads that seems pertinent;

*There’s knowledge…then…..there’s knowledge*

Been in many a conversation with folks of knowledge
Not talkin’ barroom confabs
Those usually lead to yelling matches and/or the introduction of mr knuckle to mr nose

No, serious discussions

Closed door conference room exec brainstorming, fix it meetings
Sometimes planned
Sometimes starting in hallways
Sometimes starting in washrooms
Sometimes after quarterly reports

Or

A fireside chat
One on one
Sipping an acceptable single malt
Maybe accompanied by a fine cigar
Those are nice

anyway

What I’ve noticed is, there’s at least two forms of knowledge

Experience
Academic

I can appreciate the academic in his quest to display what he’s been taught
But
That’s pretty much where it ends with me
No dis on him, no, it’s just that the academic usually has no way, no tool, to break down what he’s trying to convey into laymen’s terminology
It’s gotta be very frustrating for him
Then again, maybe even he doesn’t have that great of a grasp if he can’t…..

Had the pleasure of working alongside an older gentleman by the name of Moshofski
Heavily degreed
And had the savvy to back it up
With a pencil, a sketch, a few words of logic
accompanied with sweeping gestures of his pencil/wand, depicting thrust, while sketching something as simple as a tiny radius
molded into the inside of a 90° corner of the leg of a golf cart design
a very simple kindly gentleman
with the ability to break down his genius for the common man

He saved our little company a quarter million dollars in fifteen minutes of his time

These types have no need to belittle, to talk down, to put the subject under a microscope
No, they just kindly, gently show what they know
Then smile
Looking up at yer face, hoping to read understanding in the furrows of yer brow

Life is enjoyable around these folks

Quite the learning experience


----------



## ronk (Jul 31, 2022)

I totally reject the image or concept of "God," and His alleged plan. I also totally object to the idea that you could pray to God and be delivered from danger, etc. Look at the thousands or millions of "good Christians" who died despite their faith, etc. 

Having said that, I do have a feeling that there is something "greater than man." I can't help wonder at "Big Bang," and the wonder of Evolution. But I totally reject Man's effort to make such things in Man's own image.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jul 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Believe what you wish, but in my honest opinion the nature and vastness of the universe is beyond our comprehension. We may know a great deal, but not all by a long shot, so why should we presume to scorn beliefs that bring joy and understanding to so many of our friends and neighbors? That is why I am an agnostic.


I'm best described as agnostic. I don't believe in gods or many of the stories in the bible(s). My beliefs that these are fictions can be supported and argued, ad nauseam, scientifically and historically - but can't be proven to the satisfaction of those who choose to believe.

Did some super-powered, non-corporeal intelligence create matter out of nothing or did matter _jus_t exist? That is my question.


----------



## grahamg (Jul 31, 2022)

Patricia said:


> A couple of days ago, I mentioned that your speech pattern, writing, was different that than the others, regardless there are people from your area of the world on the forum. Just now when I noticed your post above Gary O, I realized the two of you both have an unusual language in wording style. Your threads the language is fluent and Gary more broken but ... Look on your earlier date threads, as the comment you made today doesn't so much reflect what I'm talking about that seemed consistent in your language writing earlier on.  Are you two from the same area? What is the language difference from other people from the UK?


I think Gary O and I were twin brothers, separated at birth, and serendipity has brought us together again on this forum, (I'm hoping so anyway, though what my dear old mum would have to say about it, or his dear old mum for that matter, I dont know!).


----------



## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I think Gary O and I were twin brothers, separated at birth, and serendipity has brought us together again on this forum


We'll talk about it in the new earth, grahammy

Meanwhile, we best clean up our grammar while we're here, so the persnickety can get a handle on what we're trying to get across


----------



## dseag2 (Jul 31, 2022)

I don't think God has a plan for my life.  I think I am responsible for the decisions I make and the resulting life that I have.


----------



## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> I don't think God has a plan for my life.


Proverbs 3:5-6​Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.


Proverbs 16:9​The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. 


dseag2 said:


> I think I am responsible for the decisions I make and the resulting life that I have.


So true


----------



## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2022)

squatting dog said:


> Does God have a plan? Of course he does.
> 
> Me:  Hey God.
> God:  Hello, my love.
> ...


Great parable. As with all parables, some will find it meaningful, some will be derisive and a few will find it relevant and helpful to their present circumstance.


----------



## Knight (Aug 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Not necessarily. Try Googling “We live in a simulation”. You will get a lot of hits.


Googled that & think rather than scientific fact based articles what I saw were opinions. 

If the box creation analogy isn't understood & people believe a sentient being billions of years old residing behind gold doors outside of what was supposedly created by that sentient being that makes  life plans.  How that could be  for billions of humans past & present is interesting to me.  Why life is crappy for some & not for others even more interesting.


----------



## Della (Aug 1, 2022)

Gold doors?  

You should try bee keeping, Knight.  Notice how a sentient being of much greater intelligence can plan for and control another being's entire world.


----------



## Knight (Aug 1, 2022)

Della said:


> Gold doors?
> 
> You should try bee keeping, Knight.  Notice how a sentient being of much greater intelligence can plan for and control another being's entire world.


Bee keeping probably better than not knowing the doors were made of pearl, it 's the streets that are gold.

Revelation 21:21 ESV 
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.

Must be one awesome city to house billions that have died & yet to die.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Aug 1, 2022)

Me:  excuse me, is there a God here?
Me:   anybody ?  I've been told to ask for someone called God.
Person: Sorry, can't help you with that one.. 
Person 2:  Who are you looking for ?
Me: God
Person 2: God ?  there was some guy turned up years ago.  Full of great plans and schemes...
Me: What happened him?
Person 2: People eventually got fed up with him when he didn't come up with the good and told him to clear off..
Person 1: (nods in agreement) - yea, I remember.  Don't know what anyone ever saw in him?
Me: well thanks anyway
Person 1:  can we help?
Me: I doubt it, you see, I'm falling apart.
Persons 1&2 : Why didn't you say.  We humans must help each other.  Care to join us for a drink?


----------



## Della (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Bee keeping probably better than not knowing the doors were made of pearl, it 's the streets that are gold.
> 
> Revelation 21:21 ESV
> And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
> ...


My pastor taught us that Revelation was a dream someone (probably John) had about the destruction of "the beast" (Rome.)  The book of Revelation was originally not added to the Bible and I sure wish they hadn't decided to tack it on.  Without it most of the cult leaders like David Koresh wouldn't have anything to use for their start-ups.


----------



## Knight (Aug 1, 2022)

Della you seem to know about religion so out of curiosity I pose questions about how things could be. I question but don't get very good responses or at least a response that makes sense to me. 

This "plan" thread is a good example. In order for there to be a heaven that people go to and a "creator" created it. The creator has to be someplace other than inside the heavens that were created. That would be the place where the "plan" is made right. When I question where the creator is outside the now even larger expanse of space I get nothing. So I'll give up on that.


Something not questioned & most if not all with blind faith believe is. They will be reunited with their departed loved one. The would mean that they would have to be sentient to recognize them. So I question.

If the expectation is to reunite with loved ones How does that work? If from the beginning of "creation" all loved ones are reunited do they form a group? 

Examples.

Polish and all the Polish that have died without mixing with other nationalities. 
Greeks and all the Greeks that have died without mixing with other nationalities. 
Germans and all the Germans that have died without mixing with other nationalities. 

Toss in all the rest & where do they all meet & greet. Would they automatically understand each other?


----------



## chic (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Della you seem to know about religion so out of curiosity I pose questions about how things could be. I question but don't get very good responses or at least a response that makes sense to me.
> 
> This "plan" thread is a good example. In order for there to be a heaven that people go to and a "creator" created it. The creator has to be someplace other than inside the heavens that were created. That would be the place where the "plan" is made right. When I question where the creator is outside the now even larger expanse of space I get nothing. So I'll give up on that.
> 
> ...


I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. "Loved ones" I interpret as family and friends so of course language would be common and we would understand each other. Wouldn't we?


----------



## Lewkat (Aug 1, 2022)

Since we are born with free will, I believe we are masters of our own fate.  Plans come and go.  Some are good others not.  We handle what we can with as much grace as possible.  Varies from person to person and time to time.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Della you seem to know about religion so out of curiosity I pose questions about how things could be. I question but don't get very good responses or at least a response that makes sense to me.
> 
> This "plan" thread is a good example. In order for there to be a heaven that people go to and a "creator" created it. The creator has to be someplace other than inside the heavens that were created. That would be the place where the "plan" is made right. When I question where the creator is outside the now even larger expanse of space I get nothing. So I'll give up on that.
> 
> ...


Perhaps the ticket to heaven includes the insertion of a babel fish:

"The Babel fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier, but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish. "Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that something so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the _non_-existence of God.

"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid from making a small fortune when he used it as the theme of his best-selling book, _Well That About Wraps It Up For God._"Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Babel_Fish


----------



## Della (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Della you seem to know about religion so out of curiosity I pose questions about how things could be. I question but don't get very good responses or at least a response that makes sense to me.
> 
> This "plan" thread is a good example. In order for there to be a heaven that people go to and a "creator" created it. The creator has to be someplace other than inside the heavens that were created. That would be the place where the "plan" is made right. When I question where the creator is outside the now even larger expanse of space I get nothing. So I'll give up on that.
> 
> ...


Knight, I only know what I believe  which is sort of mainstream protestant stuff.  A professional minister would give you much better answers.  Even right here on this forum there are lots of people who know much more about this than I do.

I haven't answered your questions about where the creator actually is because, well because I don't know.
  I think lots of the world religions believe that the creator is inside the creation with us, that he made it around himself.  He is a spirit inside us and we are all one to some degree.   Heaven is a state more than a place.

  Maybe it will be whatever we want it to be.  Some may really want those pearly gates and mansions.  My brother wanted it to be like the golf course in Augusta Georgia.  I hope he has that.

I think the loved ones who we are most wanting to meet when we die will come forward to meet us  and help us make it into this other dimension.  Problems like language differences wont exist we will just understand each other.

Who knows?  I wonder about whether all my dogs will get along!  And what about the two men I've been married to!  I love them both!  The Bible tells us there is no marriage in heaven so we will all just love each other in a platonic way.

I think it will all be fine.  We will enter a different space where our understanding and love for each other will be far beyond what we know and feel now: 

1 Corinthians 13:12:



 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.​


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> I question but don't get very good responses or at least a response that makes sense to me.
> 
> This "plan" thread is a good example. In order for there to be a heaven that people go to and a "creator" created it. The creator has to be someplace other than inside the heavens that were created. That would be the place where the "plan" is made right. When I question where the creator is outside the now even larger expanse of space I get nothing. So I'll give up on that.


Yeah, omnipresence is beyond me

Heh, I can't even wrap my mind around no beginning
No end, I kinda grasp
But no beginning?
If I think too hard on that, a single malt can easily come into play


----------



## ElCastor (Aug 1, 2022)

Knight said:


> Googled that & think rather than scientific fact based articles what I saw were opinions.
> 
> If the box creation analogy isn't understood & people believe a sentient being billions of years old residing behind gold doors outside of what was supposedly created by that sentient being that makes  life plans.  How that could be  for billions of humans past & present is interesting to me.  Why life is crappy for some & not for others even more interesting.


And when I read your post I see more opinions. How long has the universe been around? What preceded the Big Bang and how many Big Bangs preceded that? Infinite?? And what preceded those Bangs? What is Dark Matter and how about Dark Energy? Rather than tell the religious among us that you have all the answers, how about just admitting that you don't know and leave it at that?

Here is a dictionary definition of Agnosticism that I just pulled off the Internet with the aid of Google. Works for me.

"The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge."
"The belief that the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities cannot be known with certainty."
"The doctrines of the agnostics; the doctrine that the ultimate cause and the essential nature of things are unknowable, or at least unknown."     Disagree?


----------



## Knight (Aug 2, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> And when I read your post I see more opinions.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion​Opinion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › opinion



1 : a belief based on experience and on certain facts but not amounting to sure knowledge 

Of course my posts are opinions. 

Opinion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › opinion
1 : a belief based on experience and on certain facts but not amounting to sure knowledge.

Questioning how a being billions of years old can plan the daily lives of billions over the centuries is what forums about religion can generate. 

Unless of course you expect all heads to bobble up & down in agreement that there is some sentient being billions of years old  somewhere  outside the massive universe  planning daily lives of everyone that has ever lived, living now & yet to be born.


----------



## spectratg (Aug 2, 2022)

dko1951 said:


> Your post is very intriguing. You are obviously well read and have a realistic perspective regarding this thread. I would love to know about some of your reading that has formed and given you this perspective. Would you share some of that with us. I am being genuine in this request. If you would, please respond with a reply, it would be much appreciated.


My "realistic perspective" is based on my life observations and readings across nearly 77 years, approached objectively and scientifically.    An excellent book is "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" (it's not really brief) by Yuval Noah Harari, 2015.  

From Wiki:  "The *Anthropocene* is a proposed geological epoch dating from the commencement of significant human impact on Earth's geology and ecosystems, including, but not limited to, anthropogenic climate change. This time period coincides with the start of the Great Acceleration, a post-WWII time period during which socioeconomic and Earth system trends increase at a dramatic rate, and the Atomic Age."  In other words, homo sapiens is destroying the planet and ourselves in the process.  There are a plethora of articles, books, and ongoing studies on this topic.

Thank you for the compliment.


----------



## dko1951 (Aug 2, 2022)

spectratg said:


> My "realistic perspective" is based on my life observations and readings across nearly 77 years, approached objectively and scientifically.    An excellent book is "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" (it's not really brief) by Yuval Noah Harari, 2015.
> 
> From Wiki:  "The *Anthropocene* is a proposed geological epoch dating from the commencement of significant human impact on Earth's geology and ecosystems, including, but not limited to, anthropogenic climate change. This time period coincides with the start of the Great Acceleration, a post-WWII time period during which socioeconomic and Earth system trends increase at a dramatic rate, and the Atomic Age."  In other words, homo sapiens is destroying the planet and ourselves in the process.  There are a plethora of articles, books, and ongoing studies on this topic.
> 
> Thank you for the compliment.


Thank you for your response. I look forward to more of your thoughts and scientific based reality.


----------



## ElCastor (Aug 2, 2022)

Knight said:


> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion​Opinion Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › opinion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand my position. Faith in a religion of one sort or another can be traced back to the very origins of humanity and civilization itself.  For that reason alone it deserves a degree of respect. For many it is a source of confidence and understanding of our very nature. Would you or I argue with a woman who believed her deceased husband or child would be waiting for her in the Great Hereafter?  I certainly would not.  I am content to be an agnostic and leave it at that, but you can do as you wish.


----------



## Knight (Aug 3, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I think you misunderstand my position. Faith in a religion of one sort or another can be traced back to the very origins of humanity and civilization itself.  For that reason alone it deserves a degree of respect. For many it is a source of confidence and understanding of our very nature. Would you or I argue with a woman who believed her deceased husband or child would be waiting for her in the Great Hereafter?  I certainly would not.  I am content to be an agnostic and leave it at that, but you can do as you wish.


I did misunderstand you.  I respect those that have blind faith, but I will post questions &  opinion when religion is a topic. 

Questioning here in this forum about a person sentient after death & an expectation of rejoining a departed loved one seems  resonable to me. Your hypothetical of questioning a woman who believed her husband or child would be waiting for her I wouldn't do. 

The expectation to join a loved one & to recognize that loved one would mean being sentient. Given that as a thought process I question how meeting a loved one would take place. Considering over the centuries  sentient whatever's  would want to join each other. 

I question things but obviously don't expect an answer about. All dead husbands & children in this hypothetical.  Who  would a Greek woman on her 3rd. marriage 1st. time to a Scotsman, 2nd. to a Frenchman 3rd. time to an Italian & with children from each  reunite with ? 

Or another. Would ethnic rejoin ethnic  & create a segregated situation?

Language universal understanding? this changed?
The story of the Tower of Babel *explains the origins of the multiplicity of languages*. God was concerned that humans had blasphemed by building the tower to avoid a second flood so God brought into existence multiple languages. Thus, humans were divided into linguistic groups, unable to understand one another.


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 3, 2022)

chic said:


> How do you feel about the title "God has a plan"? And do you think His plan should be shared with us so we could cope better with life's slings and arrows?


In my opinion, it's just one of the numerous expressions people use-  some as a misguided attempt at comfort, some as a way to stop individuals from questioning.  

I've also heard 'God has a reason for everything,'  'Everything that happens is God's will,' 'God "took" your loved one,' etc.  

To be straightforward, I'm glad my own beliefs were solid long before I encountered any of these approaches, so I wasn't swayed by them.


----------



## Sunny (Aug 3, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> And when I read your post I see more opinions. How long has the universe been around? What preceded the Big Bang and how many Big Bangs preceded that? Infinite?? And what preceded those Bangs? What is Dark Matter and how about Dark Energy? Rather than tell the religious among us that you have all the answers, how about just admitting that you don't know and leave it at that?
> 
> Here is a dictionary definition of Agnosticism that I just pulled off the Internet with the aid of Google. Works for me.
> 
> ...



Although that dictionary definition of agnosticism seems to make sense at first, it becomes pretty meaningless upon further thought. It can be applied to any fictitious belief. Such as:

The belief that there is a Santa Claus cannot be known with certainty.
The belief that Covid is largely a manufactured fear promulgated by the pharmaceutical companies, and also the belief that the vaccine doesn't  make any difference; the truth about this cannot be known with any certainty.
The belief that the earth is not more than 5,000 years old cannot be known with any certainty.
The belief that all those miracles happening exactly as described in the Bible cannot be proved or disproved with any certainty. All we have to go by is common sense, science, and probability.

And so on. Point #3, that the "essential nature of things" is unknowable, or at least unknown, is so vague that it's a meaningless statement. What is an essential nature?


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 3, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I think you misunderstand my position. Faith in a religion of one sort or another can be traced back to the very origins of humanity and civilization itself.  For that reason alone it deserves a degree of respect. For many it is a source of confidence and understanding of our very nature. Would you or I argue with a woman who believed her deceased husband or child would be waiting for her in the Great Hereafter?  I certainly would not.  I am content to be an agnostic and leave it at that, but you can do as you wish.


Neither would I.

A local woman's father died, and logically she was upset.  A fundamentalist told her her father was going to hell because he hadn't been 'saved.'


----------



## Serenity4321 (Aug 3, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Great parable. As with all parables, some will find it meaningful, some will be derisive and a few will find it relevant and helpful to their present circumstance.


So very true...It is interesting how the same parable can say different things to all of us and even to ourselves depending on our needs...That is also the characteristic of the entire Bible and other great works of art...A great painting says different things to each of us


----------



## chic (Aug 3, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> In my opinion, it's just one of the numerous expressions people use-  some as a misguided attempt at comfort, some as a way to stop individuals from questioning.
> 
> I've also heard 'God has a reason for everything,'  'Everything that happens is God's will,' 'God "took" your loved one,' etc.
> 
> To be straightforward, I'm glad my own beliefs were solid long before I encountered any of these approaches, so I wasn't swayed by them.


Yes, I understand and agree with some of this. I do believe in God and His angels. I have had angel encounters and experienced immediate answer to prayer on occasion which I don't believe is arbitrary, but I wish I knew more and why so many devastatingly bad things happen to people. I have trouble with "everything happens for the best", ( it doesn't) and God's plan for me remains a mystery.


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 3, 2022)

chic said:


> Yes, I understand and agree with some of this. I do believe in God and His angels. I have had angel encounters and experienced immediate answer to prayer on occasion which I don't believe is arbitrary, but I wish I knew more and why so many devastatingly bad things happen to people. I have trouble with "everything happens for the best", ( it doesn't) and God's plan for me remains a mystery.


Oh, I forgot that 'everything happens for the best' approach. 
And another:  His/her 'faith wasn't strong enough.'
Gotta say all of those remarks bug me. 

Re: your comment about bad things-  I believe God does not control nature, nor free will, and bad things can happen because of natural causes and/or other people's misuse of free will. 

Also, I don't believe God has a specific plan for each individual person's life. 

I don't know what to make of angels, but I've been reading a lot and trying to learn.


----------



## Sunny (Aug 3, 2022)

The belief in angels is a curious phenomenon of the human mind. Thousands of years ago, a cave man storyteller probably conjured up the idea for one of his stories, listened to around the fire. Later, the idea of a being called an angel, meaning a messenger of God, made its way into the Bible. Angels are not always good and kind; some of them are fierce and terriifying. (Remember the movie Angels in America, with Meryl Streep playing an angel of death, appearing to AIDS victims?)

Wikipedia has a lot on the subject. Angels are mentioned in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Ba'hai, and other religions. They sometimes have wings, sometimes not. They go by many different names and have many different functions.

But the only ones with actual proof of their existence are the ones in Los Angeles (which is named for them,) who are playing the Mariners tomorrow..


----------



## ElCastor (Aug 3, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Although that dictionary definition of agnosticism seems to make sense at first, it becomes pretty meaningless upon further thought. It can be applied to any fictitious belief. Such as:
> 
> The belief that there is a Santa Claus cannot be known with certainty.
> The belief that Covid is largely a manufactured fear promulgated by the pharmaceutical companies, and also the belief that the vaccine doesn't  make any difference; the truth about this cannot be known with any certainty.
> ...


Sorry to disappoint, but my agnosticism is applied to one belief and one belief only -- the existence of God. I do that out of courtesy and respect for those who do believe. Unfortunately you are beginning to annoy me. Please reserve your comments for someone else, now and in the future.


----------



## spectratg (Aug 3, 2022)

dko1951 said:


> Thank you for your response. I look forward to more of your thoughts and scientific based reality.


There certainly are a diversity of viewpoints on the thread and on many other topics on Senior Forums.  Many well educated, thoughtful folks participate.  What is your perspective?


----------



## chic (Aug 3, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Oh, I forgot that 'everything happens for the best' approach.
> And another:  His/her 'faith wasn't strong enough.'
> Gotta say all of those remarks bug me.
> 
> ...


I've heard that also. That God doesn't have a plan for each individual's life but I'm not sure I believe that. He sure had a plan for Moses.   As for God controlling nature, I think he does control the weather. I have experienced dramatic weather changes when I absolutely needed it to happen and prayed for it to. Also during WWII during the battle of the bulge, General Patton ordered his troops to "pray a snowstorm away" and it they did and it worked. Coincidence? Or God does have a say about the weather?


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 3, 2022)

chic said:


> I've heard that also. That God doesn't have a plan for each individual's life but I'm not sure I believe that. He sure had a plan for Moses.   As for God controlling nature, I think he does control the weather. I have experienced dramatic weather changes when I absolutely needed it to happen and prayed for it to. Also during WWII during the battle of the bulge, General Patton ordered his troops to "pray a snowstorm away" and it they did and it worked. Coincidence? Or God does have a say about the weather?


Let me explain my viewpoint, although I don't know how common it is..
The way I believe God looks at a person and a person's life would be like a movie you've watched before- you know what's going to happen, but you don't control it.  I believe God 'knows' everything that will occur during a person's lifespan, but is not orchestrating it. 

(As for anyone who's tempted to say 'THE BIBLE SAYS..!' when it comes to 'The plans I have for you,' the Bible was written over a long period of time, in various languages, by numerous people, so what anyone might read 'in the Bible' is not necessarily what was originally said.  And there are even numerous 'versions' available these days.)

I believe nature is a force in itself, and God doesn't control it.  Look at it this way-  if the incidents you described were done by God, would that mean you also believe all 'natural disasters' where innocent people were killed was his doing also?  
(not trying to argue, just asking what you think)


----------



## chic (Aug 3, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Let me explain my viewpoint, although I don't know how common it is..
> The way I believe God looks at a person and a person's life would be like a movie you've watched before- you know what's going to happen, but you don't control it.  I believe God 'knows' everything that will occur during a person's lifespan, but is not orchestrating it.
> 
> (As for anyone who's tempted to say 'THE BIBLE SAYS..!' when it comes to 'The plans I have for you,' the Bible was written over a long period of time, in various languages, by numerous people, so what anyone might read 'in the Bible' is not necessarily what was originally said.  And there are even numerous 'versions' available these days.)
> ...


I have difficulty with the Bible also for the reasons you mention and you raise a good point about natural disasters. Sometimes I wonder if the battle between good and evil is ongoing and we humans just litter the playing field?


----------



## caroln (Aug 4, 2022)

I just watched _Schindler's List_ last night and it made me think about this thread.  6 million Jews brutalized, tortured and killed...God's plan?

God was nowhere near those death camps.  If that was his plan for those people, I hope there's a bigger picture that I'm not seeing.  Maybe it comes down to free will after all.  

Here's a quote from the movie The Devil's Advocate:  John Milton (the devil):  "Who in their right mind, Kevin, could possibly deny that the _twentieth century_ was _mine_, _all_ of it Kevin, _all_ of it _mine_?"


----------



## JustDave (Aug 4, 2022)

caroln said:


> I just watched _Schindler's List_ last night and it made me think about this thread.  6 million Jews brutalized, tortured and killed...God's plan?


Maybe he wants us to know, he's not going to be there when he's needed the most?


----------



## Sunny (Aug 4, 2022)

JustDave, after the Holocaust, many previously religious people stopped believing, for exactly that reason.


----------



## Knight (Aug 4, 2022)

Don't expect an answer but it's this kind of bible info that I question. 

What part of a plan & love is this? 

1 John 3:1

3 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that WE SHOULD BE CALLED CHILDREN OF GOD; AND SO WE ARE. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

More than 8 million babies worldwide are born with a serious birth defect each year.

https://www.cdc.gov/globalhealth/st...about 3%–,infants and young children globally.


----------



## chic (Aug 4, 2022)

Knight said:


> Don't expect an answer but it's this kind of bible info that I question.
> 
> What part of a plan & love is this?
> 
> ...


Don't ultrasounds detect birth defects so the mother can chose whether or not she wants to give birth or abort? There are very few Down's Syndrome children seen anymore.


----------



## caroln (Aug 4, 2022)

chic said:


> Don't ultrasounds detect birth defects so the mother can chose whether or not she wants to give birth or abort? There are very few Down's Syndrome children seen anymore.


Is it allowed to abort anymore because of  a birth defect?


----------



## chic (Aug 4, 2022)

caroln said:


> Is it allowed to abort anymore because of  a birth defect?


I guess it will depend upon the state the mother resides in.


----------



## Pepper (Aug 4, 2022)

chic said:


> Don't ultrasounds detect birth defects so the mother can chose whether or not she wants to give birth or abort? There are very few Down's Syndrome children seen anymore.


Amniocentesis, not ultrasound, detects chromosomal abnormalities like Down's.  The problem is that it's usually done after the 15th week (although it can be done, with risks, in the 10th week), results are about 3 days, possibly too late in Draconian states to abort.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Aug 4, 2022)

chic said:


> Yes, I understand and agree with some of this. I do believe in God and His angels. I have had angel encounters and experienced immediate answer to prayer on occasion which I don't believe is arbitrary, but I wish I knew more and why so many devastatingly bad things happen to people. I have trouble with "everything happens for the best", ( it doesn't) and God's plan for me remains a mystery.


I kind of do believe everything happens for a reason. IMO ..At times we are challenged to help overcome something we need to move past. I think the plan for us is to learn to love everyone, ourselves included and let go of all judgment, and forgive others and ourselves. We all make mistakes. Handled 'properly' we could learn and grow in wisdom from them...


----------



## Knight (Aug 4, 2022)

chic said:


> Don't ultrasounds detect birth defects so the mother can chose whether or not she wants to give birth or abort? There are very few Down's Syndrome children seen anymore.


For some mothers to make a choice. Would that fall under the plan?


----------



## Pepper (Aug 4, 2022)

Knight said:


> For some mothers to make a choice. Would that fall under the plan?


Depends whose plan I guess.  I would say no, also for sex selection.  She can probably get one or not get one.  She's free or she's not.

Kansas was a great help.  I held my breath all night and am so happy with the results.


----------



## Sunny (Aug 4, 2022)

I agree, Pepper. Hooray for Kansas!


----------



## chic (Aug 4, 2022)

Knight said:


> For some mothers to make a choice. Would that fall under the plan?


I don't think so. The thread has strayed away from THE PLAN to sort of a general discussion on the topic.


----------



## Knight (Aug 4, 2022)

chic said:


> I don't think so. The thread has strayed away from THE PLAN to sort of a general discussion on the topic.


I don't think questioning any choice people make strays from the topic. A plan includes anticipating a variety of unforeseen circumstances.  

The topic began
God has a plan. 
Not does God have a plan? 

Questioning what the plan is & how a sentient being billions of years old continues to plan deserves questioning. IMO the topic leaves open a good opportunity to ask questions that could be uncomfortable for some to think about.


----------



## Judycat (Aug 5, 2022)

Zephaniah 1:2-3
"I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth," says the Lord.
"I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea..."

What are you supposed to do with that, God has a plan?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 13, 2022)

*Yes, he has a plan
Not like you and I plan*

Luke 17:26-30


King James Version​26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Part of it is cleaning the slate from time to time

Interesting documentary;


----------



## carouselsilver (Aug 13, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Basically, history will repeat itself because nations have not learned the lessons of the past. At present, there are too many idealists and not enough realists.


Actually, I have to agree with that.


----------



## garyt1957 (Aug 14, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic,  penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos  from Australia  to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?





hollydolly said:


> more to the point, I want to know how did they get the Polar bears from the Arctic,  penguins from Antarctica and the koalas & Kangaroos  from Australia  to come to the Middle East? And after the flood was over a year later , how did those animals get back there?


And more importantly, why did they bring mosquitos???


----------



## Knight (Aug 14, 2022)

Judycat said:


> Zephaniah 1:2-3
> "I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth," says the Lord.
> "I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea..."
> 
> What are you supposed to do with that, God has a plan?


I think Zephaniah got a little carried away with the fish of the sea. Kind of hard to put whales in a fish tank big enough to hold two of it's kind, let alone the massive amount of fish of a kind that populate the waters that cover the earth. 

Then there are the animals like the ones on Madagascar that are found no where else on earth. How did they manage to be on the Ark then somehow isolate themselves? 

I think most will agree the platypus duck was just for fun with left over parts & pieces.


----------



## JustDave (Aug 15, 2022)

My guess is that Noah and the Ark is just a myth.  This is supported by the preposterous events of the story and the unimaginable logistics carried out by one man, logistics that could not be done with modern technology.  Well maybe it could be done today, but who in their right mind would do such a thing?  Wipe out mankind because he is evil, so that Noah can repopulate the Earth with his own kin, who are just as evil as those who came before.  God has too much idle time on his hands.


----------



## Sunny (Aug 15, 2022)

It's more than a "guess," JustDave, it's obviously just a myth.  We are free to believe any fairy tale concocted by anyone, but this one is such a doozy that it's hard to imagine anyone actually believing it. Sounds like a kindergarten story to me.

And if it were true, I'd have a few questions for God:  Why did you allow mosquitoes, rats. lice, and cockroaches on the ark, but killed off all the cute little puppies?  What kind of a "plan" was that supposed to be?


----------



## rgp (Aug 15, 2022)

Sunny said:


> It's more than a "guess," JustDave, it's obviously just a myth.  We are free to believe any fairy tale concocted by anyone, but this one is such a doozy that it's hard to imagine anyone actually believing it. Sounds like a kindergarten story to me.
> 
> And if it were true, I'd have a few questions for God:  Why did you allow mosquitoes, rats. lice, and cockroaches on the ark, but killed off all the cute little puppies?  What kind of a "plan" was that supposed to be?



Usually we are @ odds [you & I] I mean. But on this we agree.  I would have  a series of questions myself. "Natural" disasters come to mind ...... and those that are taken & those that survive .

  Oh that's right ..... When our family is saved ..... it is due to gods gracious blessings. But When the baby on the next street over is killed ..... it's the devil's handy work ...... <GRIN>


----------



## Paco Dennis (Aug 15, 2022)

If we ( homo sapiens ) were made in God's image, I think that is all we need to know about God.  

The leap of faith that brings a person into the fold of believers is similar to a psychotic breakdown. We have to suspend our logical ways of thinking and , like losing yourself in a book or movie, totally get lost in the God narrative. Nothing can touch you there. You are safe from all harm. The blood of Jesus covers you. It is a journey back to the earliest totally secure moments you had. It happens with all kinds of situations not just religious. People make irrational/impulsive "decisions" all the time. In politics, medicine, business, love, etc....  Humans are not machines.


----------



## garyt1957 (Aug 19, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> If we ( homo sapiens ) were made in God's image, I think that is all we need to know about God.
> 
> The leap of faith that brings a person into the fold of believers is similar to a psychotic breakdown. We have to suspend our logical ways of thinking and , like losing yourself in a book or movie, totally get lost in the God narrative. Nothing can touch you there. You are safe from all harm. The blood of Jesus covers you. It is a journey back to the earliest totally secure moments you had. It happens with all kinds of situations not just religious. People make irrational/impulsive "decisions" all the time. In politics, medicine, business, love, etc....  Humans are not machines.


It's really thr same as believing in Santa Claus, except more preposterous


----------



## dko1951 (Aug 19, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> It's really thr same as believing in Santa Claus, except more preposterous


The reality, is men created god in their image as anyone can see by the writings in that book of myths and tales. Pretty obvious men wrote it just in how woman are about on same level as slaves.


----------



## palides2021 (Aug 19, 2022)

We really don't know what God thinks. This is a metaphysical question that has no answer (I learned that in philosophy class). No matter what we say, how do we know if we are right or not? We are basing our thoughts on God through our limited senses and limited logic.  Given that, I do believe in God. I have faith in Him. I have witnessed countless miracles. I also pray to Him daily. I also have free will, and am responsible for the choices I make. I also have experienced many bad things in my life (life-threatening, etc), but bounced back through prayer and the grace of God. 

By the way, I respect all who have written here. I do not condemn or judge anyone, and hope I did not offend anyone.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 19, 2022)

Angels are the messengers from God.  They are a part of God.  
You are soul.  Your soul plans your entire life, loosely, as so many  possibilities lie before you.
You and the Holy Angels plan your life before birth.  Requests are given.  The soul plans his life.
You desired to come to Earth to rectify harms you have done in the past, through countless lifetimes,
and to grow closer to God.  Some evolutions of the soul can only be done through the earthly senses.
Each lifetime brings the opportunity to grow into higher and higher levels of consciousness.
"Souls of sadness, of harm, of pain, of discord request to come to Earth as it holds lifetimes of seemingly 
short duration before debts of past actions are paid.  Souls will keep returning to your presence.  
These are souls of love and souls who have hurt you.
The karmic debt will be lived out."  (from the angels)

What I mean is:  The soul knows preplanned actions (before you were born )  and yes, horrific actions
were planned and understood by the soul, WHICH IS YOU!
To blame God for repurcussions of your own making, (and this might be from innumerable strata 
of nature and for unaccountable lengths of time )  seems an ignorant  action.


----------



## Knight (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> What I mean is:  The soul knows preplanned actions (before you were born )  and yes, horrific actions
> were planned and understood by the soul, WHICH IS YOU!
> To blame God for repurcussions of your own making, (and this might be from innumerable strata
> of nature and for unaccountable lengths of time )  seems an ignorant  action.


If there is such a thing as a soul, how does the soul get it's information? 
Why would a soul preplan horrific actions?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 19, 2022)

Sunny said:


> I'd have a few questions for God: Why did you allow mosquitoes, rats. lice, and cockroaches on the ark, but killed off all the cute little puppies?


That's it?
That's what you base your lack of faith?


◄ Job 21 ►


Berean Study Bible Par ▾ 
Job: God Will Punish the Wicked
*1*Then Job answered:
*2*“Listen carefully to my words;
let this be your consolation to me.
*3*Bear with me while I speak;
then, after I have spoken, you may go on mocking.
*4*Is my complaint against a man?
Then why should I not be impatient?
*5*Look at me and be appalled;
put your hand over your mouth.
*6*When I remember, terror takes hold,
and my body trembles in horror.
*7*Why do the wicked live on,
growing old and increasing in power?
*8*Their descendants are established around them,
and their offspring before their eyes.
*9*Their homes are safe from fear;
no rod of punishment from God is upon them.
*10*Their bulls breed without fail;
their cows bear calves and do not miscarry.
*11*They send forth their little ones like a flock;
their children skip about,
*12*singing to the tambourine and lyre
and making merry at the sound of the flute.
*13*They spend their days in prosperity
and go down to Sheol in peace.a
*14*Yet they say to God: ‘Leave us alone!
For we have no desire to know Your ways.
*15*Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him,
and what would we gain if we pray to Him?’
*16*Still, their prosperity is not in their own hands,
so I stay far from the counsel of the wicked.
*17*How often is the lamp of the wicked put out?
Does disaster come upon them?
Does God, in His anger, apportion destruction?
*18*Are they like straw before the wind,
like chaff swept away by a storm?
*19*It is said that God lays up one’s punishment for his children.
Let God repay the man himself, so he will know it.
*20*Let his eyes see his own destruction;
let him drink for himself the wrath of the Almighty.
*21*For what does he care about his household after him,
when the number of his months has run out?
*22*Can anyone teach knowledge to God,
since He judges those on high?
*23*One man dies full of vigor,
completely secure and at ease.
*24*His body is well nourished,b
and his bones are rich with marrow.
*25*Yet another man dies in the bitterness of his soul,
having never tasted prosperity.
*26*But together they lie down in the dust,
and worms cover them both.
*27*Behold, I know your thoughts full well,
the schemes by which you would wrong me.
*28*For you say, ‘Where now is the nobleman’s house,
and where are the tents in which the wicked dwell?’
*29*Have you never asked those who travel the roads?
Do you not accept their reports?
*30*Indeed, the evil man is spared from the day of calamity,
delivered from the day of wrath.
*31*Who denounces his behavior to his face?
Who repays him for what he has done?
*32*He is carried to the grave,
and watch is kept over his tomb.
*33*The clods of the valley are sweet to him;
everyone follows behind him,
and those before him are without number.
*34*So how can you comfort me with empty words?
For your answers remain full of falsehood.”


----------



## Em in Ohio (Aug 19, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Neither would I.
> 
> A local woman's father died, and logically she was upset.  A fundamentalist told her her father was going to hell because he hadn't been 'saved.'


Yep - That was me.  So, if there is a hell and my saintly agnostic father is there, I will gladly join him - rather than be with my hateful, hypocrite mother whose salvation was granted through confession, guaranteeing _her_ a place in heaven.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> If there is such a thing as a soul, how does the soul get it's information?
> Why would a soul preplan horrific actions?


@Knight, I just explained it.  YOU are your soul.  You request of the Holy Angels to be reborn, on this or another world.
What the soul desires is given.  Even ****** deviances is requested as this is a lower world where this can be experienced.
You discuss this prior to your birth with Angels and a lifetime is planned.  You choose your time and place of birth, and your parentage.
Between lives, when the  soul feels "God," the only desire is to be closer to this Being.  This desire surpasses all desires.
Specific growth of the soul can only be attained in a physical body.
This is attained before your birth on the Earth.

A soul would preplan horrific actions, illness, impediments , etc. to rectify harm performed in past lifetimes, in order to "speed up"
his evolutionary process to be closer to God.  He wants to "live out" any karmic action in one short lifetime.
This is not necessary as absolute "time" has no meaning.  But, the desire to be one with God is so intense after the body dies and
Heaven is viewed or felt.  It's so incredible, this becomes the most important goal.
This is generally not remembered in this life.
All suffering, mental, physical, environmental is due to an inadequate coordination between different
levels of individual life and the  Being.

Does this explain it?  If not, I'll try to explain it another way.


----------



## NorthernLight (Aug 19, 2022)

I'm not religious. I was active in 12-Step groups for many years. God's plan was spoken of often. I preferred to translate that into humility, gratitude, acceptance, etc. 

Now I just see us as animals, doomed to suffer and die. Some people starve or get cancer, some kill each other. Nice kids are bullied. Racism exists. Raptors grab their prey and eat it alive. Flies and diseases harrass many animals. Stars explode or collapse, destroying other stars. 

If that's a plan, okay, but it doesn't comfort me much.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 19, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> A local woman's father died, and logically she was upset. A fundamentalist told her her father was going to hell because he hadn't been 'saved.'





Em in Ohio said:


> Yep - That was me. So, if there is a hell and my saintly agnostic father is there, I will gladly join him - rather than be with my hateful, hypocrite mother whose salvation was granted through confession, guaranteeing _her_ a place in heaven


This is why I don't attend church much

Too many Bible thumpers

Being 'saved' has been so screwed up by the misinformed


----------



## Gaer (Aug 19, 2022)

NorthernLight said:


> I'm not religious. I was active in 12-Step groups for many years. God's plan was spoken of often. I preferred to translate that into humility, gratitude, acceptance, etc.
> 
> Now I just see us as animals, doomed to suffer and die. Some people starve or get cancer, some kill each other. Nice kids are bullied. Racism exists. Raptors grab their prey and eat it alive. Flies and diseases harrass many animals. Stars explode or collapse, destroying other stars.
> 
> If that's a plan, okay, but it doesn't comfort me much.


The cycle of all existence is creation, evolution  and disolution.  This is the law, ( a rule of procedure) of creation ,of maintenence and of evolution.
I don't believe in creationism or Darwinism.  It's the SOUL that evolves.(or degrades to a lower state)
Through this cycle, the life of the ever expanding multiverse goes on and on.
Each soul evolves or devolves at his own rate.  All is the choice of the soul.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Aug 19, 2022)

As you say, "You are your soul", so when you die, I believe your 'soul' dies too.  Sometimes I wonder why we bother with this.  We didn't worry about the time before we were born, so why worry about the time after we die.  Let's just enjoy our life and make the best of it.


----------



## dko1951 (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> The cycle of all existence is creation, evolution  and disolution.  This is the law, ( a rule of procedure) of creation ,of maintenence and of evolution.
> I don't believe in creationism or Darwinism.  It's the SOUL that evolves.(or degrades to a lower state)
> Through this cycle, the life of the ever expanding multiverse goes on and on.
> Each soul evolves or devolves at his own rate.  All is the choice of the soul.


I'm curious. You speak with such conviction, almost like you've seen this somehow. How so?


----------



## Gaer (Aug 19, 2022)

dko1951 said:


> I'm curious. You speak with such conviction, almost like you've seen this somehow. How so?


You're not going to believe me, but a Holy Angel appeared to me, touched me and spoke to me.  I was told I would recieve
sacred messages from Holy Angels that I was to give to the world.
So, having no credence, the only way I could do this was to write books of their words.  I've written four books now of their messages to the world, where they answered most questions I posed to them.
I was annoyed at the interference in my life as I was going through many things, including working two jobs but they kept insisting, "Now is the time to write the books."  "This is why you are on the Earth at this time."  "What is promised to the God takes prescedence over Earthly mentions."

I've been mocked, cursed, called the devil; even had a salad thrown at me.  Why would I or anyone put themselves through this unless
I've been directed by entities higher than myself?  
Yet, I know, as I write this, readers will say it's a self-delusion.  It is not.  I've had countless experiences with Angels,  seeing them, hearing them,
feeling them heal me and they have saved my life so many times because I take stupid  physical chances.
Over the years, I've come to know the things they tell me are truth.
I don't know why I was the recipient of these experiences, but now I feel honored.  I feel Angels (not lowly spirits)  around me all the time.
I learn many things from them.  
I apologize if any of my words offend anyone.  I'm not trying to be "holier than thou"  but I KNOW these words are true.


----------



## palides2021 (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> You're not going to believe me, but a Holy Angel appeared to me, touched me and spoke to me.  I was told I would recieve
> sacred messages from Holy Angels that I was to give to the world.
> So, having no credence, the only way I could do this was to write books of their words.  I've written four books now of their messages to the world, where they answered most questions I posed to them.
> I was annoyed at the interference in my life as I was going through many things, including working two jobs but they kept insisting, "Now is the time to write the books."  "This is why you are on the Earth at this time."  "What is promised to the God takes prescedence over Earthly mentions."
> ...


I loved reading your books and your messages.


----------



## dko1951 (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> You're not going to believe me, but a Holy Angel appeared to me, touched me and spoke to me.  I was told I would recieve
> sacred messages from Holy Angels that I was to give to the world.
> So, having no credence, the only way I could do this was to write books of their words.  I've written four books now of their messages to the world, where they answered most questions I posed to them.
> I was annoyed at the interference in my life as I was going through many things, including working two jobs but they kept insisting, "Now is the time to write the books."  "This is why you are on the Earth at this time."  "What is promised to the God takes prescedence over Earthly mentions."
> ...


That is quite fascinating. It brings to mind a book that came out many years ago, and please forgive me, those many years have removed the parts that make it easy to recall the authors name or the book title. I did read it and it was very interesting. He said that god spoke with him directly. Very controversial at the time. Thank you for telling me your journey and I hope that you have a joy filled life.


----------



## Knight (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> @Knight, I just explained it.  YOU are your soul.  You request of the Holy Angels to be reborn, on this or another world.
> What the soul desires is given.  Even ****** deviances is requested as this is a lower world where this can be experienced.
> You discuss this prior to your birth with Angels and a lifetime is planned.  You choose your time and place of birth, and your parentage.
> Between lives, when the  soul feels "God," the only desire is to be closer to this Being.  This desire surpasses all desires.
> ...


I'm not trying to be obtuse I just don't get why if I'm sentient enough to request to be reborn I wouldn't ask to be reborn with the ability to become filthy rich. 




Gaer said:


> A soul would preplan horrific actions, illness, impediments , etc. to rectify harm performed in past lifetimes, in order to "speed up"
> his evolutionary process to be closer to God.  He wants to "live out" any karmic action in one short lifetime.
> This is not necessary as absolute "time" has no meaning.  But, the desire to be one with God is so intense after the body dies and
> Heaven is viewed or felt.  It's so incredible, this becomes the most important goal.
> ...


Does that mean I could choose  something like cancer of the brain to be able to have the plug pulled on life at an early age.



Gaer said:


> Does this explain it?  If not, I'll try to explain it another way.


I get what you are posting I just can't wrap my thinking around that concept.


----------



## dko1951 (Aug 19, 2022)

Gaer said:


> You're not going to believe me, but a Holy Angel appeared to me, touched me and spoke to me.  I was told I would recieve
> sacred messages from Holy Angels that I was to give to the world.
> So, having no credence, the only way I could do this was to write books of their words.  I've written four books now of their messages to the world, where they answered most questions I posed to them.
> I was annoyed at the interference in my life as I was going through many things, including working two jobs but they kept insisting, "Now is the time to write the books."  "This is why you are on the Earth at this time."  "What is promised to the God takes prescedence over Earthly mentions."
> ...


Hello Gaer,9 I found the book I mentioned. "Conversations with God" by Neale Walsch. Big seller in the mid nineties. Interesting read at the time.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> I'm not trying to be obtuse I just don't get why if I'm sentient enough to request to be reborn I wouldn't ask to be reborn with the ability to become filthy rich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You CAN request to be filthy rich!  Karma will always be a factor. 
I requested two particular souls be born to me and they were,
and I requested that I serve the Holy Angels in this life, and I am.
I didn't ask for money.  I DO remember standing before the council
of  Angels and speaking with them. (before this life).

It's FINE that you don't believe me.  It's GOOD to question!
I'm not great at explaining, I know!  Each soul moves at his own pace
and we don't have to have all the answers now.
People can go through many belief systems in one short life.
It's all fine!  The mind is in the relative field and thoughts are
to always be clear, free and unbounded. 
YOU will know what is right for you.  I won't tell you,
"You must believe me!"  Think and feel what is comfortable for you
Thank you for questioning me though.  You are opening up spiritually!


----------



## garyt1957 (Aug 19, 2022)

dko1951 said:


> The reality, is men created god in their image as anyone can see by the writings in that book of myths and tales. Pretty obvious men wrote it just in how woman are about on same level as slaves.


Agree 100%


----------



## chic (Aug 20, 2022)

Gaer said:


> Angels are the messengers from God.  They are a part of God.
> You are soul.  Your soul plans your entire life, loosely, as so many  possibilities lie before you.
> You and the Holy Angels plan your life before birth.  Requests are given.  The soul plans his life.
> You desired to come to Earth to rectify harms you have done in the past, through countless lifetimes,
> ...


But if our conscious doesn't know that we know then we remain ignorant and therefore innocent.


----------



## Judycat (Aug 20, 2022)

I go around thinking some of the things mentioned above, except, I know it's just my imagination running wild. I don't think I'd ever bother interacting with my imagination to the degree some appear to be interacting, though you are free to believe whatever you wish as long as it's not hurting anyone. 

Just my opinion. Sorry if I offend. Just felt an urge to say this, because I've already gone the spiritual route and found much, but not all of it, to be BS. It's all done because, often, reality sucks so much that we make up our own reality. Lots of us do this and I don't think it's abnormal or weird. It's just how we cope with having a big brain.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 22, 2022)

Sunny said:


> It's more than a "guess," JustDave, it's obviously just a myth.


Funny how history repeats itself

Been reading about the French Revolution;

“This impious and ridiculous mummery had a certain fashion; and the installation of the Goddess of Reason was renewed and imitated throughout the nation, in such places where the inhabitants desired to show themselves equal to all the heights of the Revolution.”—Scott, vol. 1, ch. 17

Said the orator who introduced the worship of Reason: “Legislators! Fanaticism has given way to reason. Its bleared eyes could not endure the brilliancy of the light. This day an immense concourse has assembled beneath those gothic vaults, which, for the first time, re-echoed the truth. There the French have celebrated the only true worship,—that of Liberty, that of Reason. There we have formed wishes for the prosperity of the arms of the Republic. There we have abandoned inanimate idols for Reason, for that animated image, the masterpiece of nature.”—M. A. Thiers, _History of the French Revolution,_ vol. 2, pp. 370, 371

When the goddess was brought into the Convention, the orator took her by the hand, and turning to the assembly said: “Mortals, cease to tremble before the powerless thunders of a God whom your fears have created. Henceforth acknowledge no divinity but Reason. I offer you its noblest and purest image; if you must have idols, sacrifice only to such as this.... Fall before the august Senate of Freedom, oh! Veil of Reason!” 

“The goddess, after being embraced by the president, was mounted on a magnificent car, and conducted, amid an immense crowd, to the cathedral of Notre Dame, to take the place of the Deity. There she was elevated on the high altar, and received the adoration of all present.”—Alison, vol. 1, ch. 10

This was followed, not long afterward, by the public burning of the Bible. On one occasion “the Popular Society of the Museum” entered the hall of the municipality, exclaiming, _“Vive la Raison!”_ and carrying on the top of a pole the half-burned remains of several books, among others breviaries, missals, and the Old and New Testaments, which “expiated in a great fire,” said the president, “all the fooleries which they have made the human race commit.”—_Journal of Paris,_ 1793, No. 318. Quoted in Buchez-Roux, _Collection of Parliamentary History,_ vol. 30, pp. 200, 201.


----------



## JustDave (Aug 22, 2022)

Burning the Bible, believing the Bible, neither makes a lot of sense.  History does repeat itself.  Over the years, one god replaces an older one, which is then relegated to the archives of myth, and each time it happens, men flock to the new god never seeing that it's as unbelievable as the old god.  The lesson here is that mankind has not evolved to be logical.  It has evolved to survive, and it does, at least to some faltering degree.  Evolution, biological or social, does not lead to perfection.  It just needs to function.  That's why mankind continues to stumble, even while believing he is the apex of one thing or another.


----------



## chic (Aug 22, 2022)

I think the age of reason saved people from feudalism. That was the idea. That no one should be born to be someone else's slave because of where and to whom they were born and this still makes sense to me. Doesn't it make sense to you?


----------



## Judycat (Aug 22, 2022)

People still feel they have to belong to some kind of hierarchy, though, and eye loners with suspicion. Plop! Here's organized religion for you because you can't seem to fit in anywhere else.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 23, 2022)

chic said:


> I think the age of reason saved people from feudalism. That was the idea. That no one should be born to be someone else's slave because of where and to whom they were born and this still makes sense to me. Doesn't it make sense to you?


Yes, yes it does.
The people of France were torn
The very poor and the very rich

The *Age of Reason* was nothing but a shroud of the royalty, the rich

*The Reign of Terror* soon followed

Fun times

"Though a sinner do evil a hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before Him: but it shall not be well with the wicked.” Proverbs 11:5; Ecclesiastes 8:12, 13. “They hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord;” “therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.” Proverbs 1:29, 31.


----------



## JustDave (Aug 23, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> The *Age of Reason* was nothing but a shroud of the royalty, the rich
> 
> *The Reign of Terror* soon followed


Are you confusing chronology with causation?  Or are you "just sayin'," without any attempt to imply a connection?


----------



## chic (Aug 23, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Yes, yes it does.
> The people of France were torn
> The very poor and the very rich
> 
> ...


So you believe the reign of terror sprung from the age of reason?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 23, 2022)

JustDave said:


> re you confusing chronology with causation? Or are you "just sayin'," without any attempt to imply a connection?


I'm just reading the history of the French Revolution and how it's playing out

But, let's just say I'm 'just sayin'


----------



## Judycat (Aug 23, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I'm just reading the history of the French Revolution and how it's playing out


It was the best of times; it was the worst of times.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 23, 2022)

chic said:


> So you believe the reign of terror sprung from the age of reason?


Looks to be that way (I'm not done reading yet)


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 23, 2022)

I see history repeating itself
right here in the US

Lawlessness 
Like I've never seen
Seems to go hand in hand with Godlessness

This seen is no longer uncommon;


----------



## Em in Ohio (Aug 24, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Funny how history repeats itself
> 
> Been reading about the French Revolution;
> 
> ...


I'm against all book burning, as long as folks don't believe everything they read!


----------



## Em in Ohio (Aug 24, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I see history repeating itself
> right here in the US
> 
> Lawlessness
> ...


Yet, how many people have been _murdered_ by others in the name of their god?  
What is lacking is basic ethics and common decency, in my opinion.


----------



## Della (Aug 24, 2022)

Watching the looters reminded me that the desire to follow someone, or to belong to a group, has moved, at least in America, from religious institutions to gangs and political groups.  I've never heard anyone profess their faith in Christ with as much fervor as some people talk about their favorite politician and I've known people who split with their families because they didn't like the same musician. It's been hundreds of years since the Crusades.  These days we're murdering over gang colors and drugs far more than any religious ideology.


----------



## Knight (Aug 25, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Yet, how many people have been _murdered_ by others in the name of their god?


If the bible story of Noah & the ark is to be believed, learning from the best would be my guess.


----------



## Teacher Terry (Aug 25, 2022)

I was raised Lutheran but no longer believe. You can be a good person, help others, etc and not believe in god. So many horrendous things have been done in the name of religion. When the Bible was written people were uneducated and needed rules to live by and a god to explain natural phenomenons.


----------



## chic (Aug 26, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I was raised Lutheran but no longer believe. You can be a good person, help others, etc and not believe in god. So many horrendous things have been done in the name of religion. When the Bible was written people were uneducated and needed rules to live by and a god to explain natural phenomenons.


That's true also and it is a way to control masses of people. It makes a person think.


----------



## JustDave (Aug 26, 2022)

FWIW, I'm a former Lutheran too. The people at my church seemed nice, although I didn't know most of them.  I just couldn't buy into the God part of the religion.  I had doubts as early as age five, but I tried to believe.  As I got older, read more, and learned about ancient mythology and other modern religions, it eventually became clear that I simply didn't believe any of it. 

But that epiphany took years and years to happen.  I clung to religion, trying to find logic and reason in it, because owning up to being an atheist was too disturbing psychologically.  But coming to terms with my lack of belief was surprisingly liberating once I admitted the truth to myself. I was in my 50s when that finally happened, such is the power of childhood indoctrination.  I had spend most of my life searching for something that was not there.


----------



## Knight (Aug 27, 2022)

@Gaer

1st.sentence from your post #332.

Quote
"Angels are the messengers from God. They are a part of God."

When you posted that I didn't think about what form angels take or if angels were billions of years old since you claim they are part of God. 

Wondering. If God created angels, if so how many? Do angels have different roles or interaction with the souls you refer to in your post #332? 

Many have posted they expect to join loved ones that died. Are souls sentient?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

Knight said:


> Many have posted they expect to join loved ones that died


As far as the Bible is concerned, yer dead, worm food
...until the 2nd coming and the resurrection

Nothing in the Bible says otherwise

There's many texts
but
just think about it
If there's a resurrection, what happens?
Do those in heaven come back down
jump into the grave
then go back up again?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


----------



## Knight (Aug 27, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> As far as the Bible is concerned, yer dead, worm food
> ...until the 2nd coming and the resurrection
> 
> Nothing in the Bible says otherwise
> ...


It's those kinds of questions I'd  like an answer to. Blind faith or a belief system that gets a person thru their days is great. But questioning the how & why the promises or anything relating to being sentient after death don't typically get an answer.


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 27, 2022)

Knight said:


> It's those kinds of questions I'd  like an answer to. Blind faith or a belief system that gets a person thru their days is great. But questioning the how & why the promises or anything relating to being sentient after death don't typically get an answer.


That's one thing that bugs me about some religions- even little children are basically bullied into not questioning anything.  I don't agree with that at all.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

Knight said:


> It's those kinds of questions I'd like an answer to. Blind faith or a belief system that gets a person thru their days is great. But questioning the how & why the promises or anything relating to being sentient after death don't typically get an answer.


Well, I'm not a big fan of 'blind faith'
It's why we have brains
I hope I gave you a direction, if not an answer....


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Knight said:


> @Gaer
> 
> 1st.sentence from your post #332.
> 
> ...


Hi!  The form angels take is like human form and they can move from transparent to solid form.  They can appear or disappear.
They are connected to God through the energy in their soul.

Yes, Good Heavens YES Souls are sentient! You are YOU, before and after the death of the body.

I've started a thread called, " Words of the Holy Angels"  ( a diary) where I will use actual angelic quotes to explain all this, rather than use this OP's space on his thread.  If you find it, I'll try to explain this in detail.  OK?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> That's one thing that bugs me about some religions- even little children are basically bullied into not questioning anything. I don't agree with that at all.


I don't either
Pretty much hate it
The church of Rome did a lot of that
The early reformers gave it a fight, but relaxed into complacency and became quite lackadaisical once Luther, Zwingli, Wycliff and others died.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

Gaer said:


> I've started a thread called, " Words of the Holy Angels" ( a diary) where I will use actual angelic quotes to explain all this


Nothing in that thread is Biblical
Quite the contrary

Not here to argue.....but;


From that thread;

*Words from the Holy Angels*

'Think yourself a god'

From the serpent;
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God'
Genesis 3

From that thread;
"When the body is readying for death, let him know this life is not the whole existence. Life goes on into eternity. The person that is you will always be you. More wonderful experiences than you can ever imagine lies ahead of you.
Life beyond this is eternal and forever, becoming more and more real with every birth and death.

Genesis 3
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die”.

There's many more Biblical texts, but don't wish to belabor this
Just need to clarify the biblical standpoint
Of which I base my faith


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Nothing in that thread is Biblical
> Quite the contrary
> 
> Not here to argue.....but;
> ...


I give no credence to what is left of the Holy Bible.  This is a translation of a translation of a translation of a remembered series of events.
I have no doubt these were words of angels given to the scribes at that time but they were changed completely by the church in the dark ages to bind the souls to the church.
All metaphysical references were taken out.  Anything not holding them in fear of leaving the church was taken out and it's only a tattered version of the truth. 
I don't censor the angel's words nor do I explain what they mean.  I  write them exactly word for word as it's received to be accepted or rejected.
Yes, My dearest friends, (which I consider you) and family all have banished me for scribing these words.  They all think me nuts.
Or they think of me as the devil.  Are only words from centuries ago given worth?
If so, isn't the Vedic religion the oldest?
It's fine.  "What is promised to the God takes prescedence over earthly mentions".

Your faith is important to you.  It's how you make sense of the world.
I in no way ,want to demean your belief system.  I merely want to tell the words of the Holy Angels because this is what I was told to do from
the most incredibly beautiful Holy Angel I've ever seen, heard or been touched by.  This was the most INCREDIBLE experience of my life!
Gary, I have and will always have the highest opinion of you, even though we differ on this.


----------



## Pepper (Aug 27, 2022)

I have thoroughly enjoyed this banter with @Gaer and @Gary O'.  Thank you both.  Very interesting talk between believers, excellent!


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

Gaer said:


> I have no doubt these were words of angels given to the scribes at that time but they were changed completely by the church in the dark ages to bind the souls to the church.


Too bad nobody told Huss, Jerome, Luther, Wycliff and the many martyrs.

Then there's The King James Version
*after* the Dark Ages

The actual translating (writing) of the KJV was done by *a committee of 47 scholars and clergymen* over the course of many years.

That version, though now a bit archaic, has held the Greek and Hebrew translations quite true

If what you say is true...why keep the Bible away from the people?
Why burn them?

I'm pretty done here


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Gary, The Bible is a lovely book and much of it is poetic.  Didn't mean to anger you.


----------



## Pepper (Aug 27, 2022)

Wow.  And here, dumb me thought you two were just having a fascinating dialogue.  I guess I read that wrong.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Wow.  And here, dumb me thought you two were just having a fascinating dialogue.  I guess I read that wrong.


Well Gary O is one of my very favorite people and I am sorry he is offended.


----------



## Teacher Terry (Aug 27, 2022)

_I have read before that souls pick their lives, parents, etc but then think no one would choose to be Jewish in a concentration camp during the holocaust, to be murdered, etc.  _


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> _I have read before that souls pick their lives, parents, etc but then think no one would choose to be Jewish in a concentration camp during the holocaust, to be murdered, etc.  _


To live out your karmic action in one short lifetime, to become closer to God.  
I did (or will) explain this in my diary thread, "Words of Holy Angels".


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 27, 2022)

Gaer said:


> Gary, The Bible is a lovely book and much of it is poetic. Didn't mean to anger you


Do not concern yourself whether or not you anger me
No anger
I have a concern for your soul
And the souls of others that are taken in with this misguidance


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Do not concern yourself whether or not you anger me
> No anger
> I have a concern for your soul
> And the souls of others that are taken in with this misguidance


Sorry you feel that way Gary.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> _I have read before that souls pick their lives, parents, etc but then think no one would choose to be Jewish in a concentration camp during the holocaust, to be murdered, etc.  _


I put on the thread, "words of Holy Angels" the answer to this in a quote from the angels.  
One not need to have lived thousands of years ago to receive words from angels.  Many wisdoms are sent to the people of Earth 
all the time.  Perhaps their words will give you some insight.


----------



## Knight (Aug 27, 2022)

Gaer said:


> Hi!  The form angels take is like human form and they can move from transparent to solid form.  They can appear or disappear.
> They are connected to God through the energy in their soul.
> 
> Yes, Good Heavens YES Souls are sentient! You are YOU, before and after the death of the body.
> ...


I found the thread & read what you had to say. I don't doubt you communicate, it's just difficult for me to accept that communication is so selective in a world that has 7 billion people. Is it possible for you to photograph & record your conversations?  A video & voice recording of the transition from transparent to solid would make a believer out of me.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 27, 2022)

Knight said:


> I found the thread & read what you had to say. I don't doubt you communicate, it's just difficult for me to accept that communication is so selective in a world that has 7 billion people. Is it possible for you to photograph & record your conversations?  A video & voice recording of the transition from transparent to solid would make a believer out of me.


No, sorry.  Communications come in varied ways, often in the middle of the night.
It's not important you believe me.
No one believes me.  It's of no concern.
Wait!  I have one cousin who visited me the day after the first Holy angel appeared. in this huge blue/white light.
 She knows.
The angel was transparent and solidified right before me, touching my forehead with two fingers of her right hand.

I honestly don't know if everyone can hear them or just me.  In the church, it was only me.
The minister (Lutheran Church) told my parents never to bring me to church again.
I never entered any church all my life from then on.  But, I had no need.  I heard and saw angels. 
They gave me sacred messages most of my life.   I didn't write them down until the last fifteen  years or so.

Strange though, worth is given to angel's words if they were received thousands of years ago by a man, but not 
from any souls who are now alive on the Earth.
These are not my words.  I'm only a scribe, and I'm afraid I really let down the Angel's expectations of me.
I promised them and no one listens.  I've failed them.


----------



## i'myourpal (Aug 27, 2022)

God does have a plan. The question is do you want to be a part of God's plan or anyone else to say?
People can't say that God has a plan whether you're to live or die tomorrow. For you see they are blaming God and it sounds like the open post is also. If we blame God that means, we doubt him. When this happens our faith in God lessens and some completely lose their faith.
This isn't anything new that people would blame God and that even Jesus was put on trial. 

We shouldn't believe in the words of men who say that God planned things this way. Example: someone gets in a car accident and goes to the hospital and gets a cast. Think about it.. Did the driver tell the guy to get into an accident or did God use his power and get the cars into an accident? Don't blame God because he hasn't anything to do with it. Note the word "accident" that's what it was. 

What it really means when God has a plan for our lives is this.. He wants us to be a part of his will and plan.
God will teach and direct us to make the right decisions every day. It's God's desire that we have a relationship with him. 
That's why he's called Heavenly Father. This is why those that obey him are called sons and daughters. We don't always do the right things, but God is very forgiving.

God would do anything to save your life. But the life that God is speaking of is eternal life. You don't know the day you're going to die. 
If you have eternal life the day should not matter. The kind of person that God wants you to be is found in the Bible Matthew Chapter 5 The Beatitudes or the Sermon on the Mount. After reading that a person should read the bible a few times a week.
The bible does say that there will be tribulation. Suffering in this life should not have you blame or doubt God.
Rather instead keep your faith, trust, and believe in him and pray. Jesus says He that endures to the end will have the crown of life. James 1:12
Finally, the bible is the way that God speaks to mankind.


----------



## Bretrick (Aug 27, 2022)

*Inerrantist - New word for me*


----------



## Knight (Aug 27, 2022)

Gaer said:


> No, sorry.  Communications come in varied ways, often in the middle of the night.
> It's not important you believe me.
> No one believes me.  It's of no concern.
> Wait!  I have one cousin who visited me the day after the first Holy angel appeared. in this huge blue/white light.
> ...


Maybe one of these would work.


GhostTube SLS
The GhostTube SLS app uses your phone’s technology to detect “humanoid bodies” in your environment by projecting a grid of infrared light. If your phone is new enough, it’ll also give you night vision capabilities. Open the app the next time the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, and see if someone — or something — is hanging out in the shadows.

Download GhostTube SLS for Apple

Download GhostTube SLS for Android


3
Ghost Hunting Tools
Ghost Hunting Tools, available for iPhone users only, includes an EMF reader that detects fluctuations in the electromagnetic field, and an EVP recorder, which picks up electronic voice phenomena — things IRL ghost hunters rely on to detect otherworldly spirits. It uses a 1000-word dictionary to help you guess the intention of the spirit. And while the app says it’s just for fun, the reviews claim otherwise: one June 2021 review is titled, in all-caps, “100% REAL.”

Download Ghost Hunting Tools

4
iOvilus
This ghost hunting app produces speech from ghosts, called instrumental trans communication, based on changes to sensors on your phone. Who knows if it's real, or if it just relies on what your phone already knows about you to send you scary messages? Either way, it’s sure to be hella creepy.

Download iOvilus for $1.99.

5
Spirit Board
Ask the Spirit Board questions, or input text, and then wait for a ghost to respond. To really set the mood, the creators suggest darkening your room and lighting a few candles. Then, place your fingers on the planchette, Ouija-board style, to initiate a ghostly convo. If a spirit responds to your questions, the planchette will move to show their answer. With four stars and over 30,000 reviews on the App Store, you know you’ll be in for a spooky time.

Download Spirit Board for Apple

Download Spirit Board for Android

6
Ghost Detector — Haunted Radar
The Ghost Detector — Haunted Radar app claims to be the most accurate ghost detecting app. It works by picking up changes in electromagnetic fields to identify whether or not ghosts are present. Use it to search for spirits, or to scare your friends.

Download Ghost Detector — Haunted Radar for Apple

Download Ghost Detector — Haunted Radar for Android

https://www.bustle.com/life/6-ghost-hunting-apps-that-claim-to-find-paranormal-activity-18811169


----------



## Gaer (Aug 28, 2022)

Knight said:


> Maybe one of these would work.
> 
> 
> GhostTube SLS
> ...




No.

I know you went to a lot of work compiling everything for your last post and i appreciate that, but

No.

You are equating an entity of the most high, a most sacred Being in existence, AN APPOINTED HOLY ANGEL OF GOD,
to a lowly earthly ghost?

No.

If a Holy Angel of God appeared before you, you would tremble to the depth of your soul.  You would shake,  cry tears of joy,
This would be more terrifying, more blissful, more real, more humbling than can be imagined.  You would fall on your knees in submission.
You would gasp in awe.  Your body would fold to honor the intensity of the experience.
No words of Earth can explain this for it is a feeling beyond comprehension.  
If a god, THEE GOD, or a Holy Angel stood before you, this is love beyond explanation.  You would shake and tremble, gasp for breath
at the beauty, the wonder, the force thundering through you and nothing, NOTHING  can equal this feeling.

No.


----------



## Knight (Aug 28, 2022)

Gaer said:


> No.
> 
> I know you went to a lot of work compiling everything for your last post, but
> 
> ...


I think you didn't correctly interpret my attempt to get verifiable documentation for paranormal activity you experience. 

I'm not doubting you experience something, I'm interested in seeing for myself factual evidence. But it seems like that isn't possible. 

Hearing voices is not uncommon as this web site explains.
https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/explore-mental-health/a-z-topics/hearing-voices


----------



## Gaer (Aug 28, 2022)

Knight said:


> I think you didn't correctly interpret my attempt to get verifiable documentation for paranormal activity you experience.
> 
> I'm not doubting you experience something, I'm interested in seeing for myself factual evidence. But it seems like that isn't possible.
> 
> ...


I understand.  When the time is right for you, you will experience whatever is spiritual or supernatural, you are supposed to know.
I agree one should not take on beliefs unless personally varified by you!  
I would probably be an agnostic, had the Angel not appeared and told me my life plan, touched me on the forehead.
This could have been you that experienced this instead of me.  I quit the church at age eight because I saw the hypocrisy.
and an Angel told me what the minister said was not true.
I was skeptical of every belief then.  One can't follow a teaching blindly, because everyone else does.
Yes, I am mentally healthy.  I receive these words clearly and in varied ways.  Communications are sustained.
It's not necessary that you believe me.  Maybe this path is not right for you.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
No, I cannot and will not get varifiable documentation from Holy Angels of God.  
These are HOLY ANGELS OF GOD, for Pete sake!  Not a "ghost!"
If you want better understanding of my experiences, you can read my books.  All is explained in detail.
Thank you for your interest.


----------



## chic (Aug 28, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I have thoroughly enjoyed this banter with @Gaer and @Gary O'.  Thank you both.  Very interesting talk between believers, excellent!


Yes. I agree. Bring it on. Open and free debate with no condemnation.


----------



## i'myourpal (Aug 28, 2022)

chic said:


> God has a plan. I hear this a lot especially from desperate people or those who are suffering. Some tell me this when I am struggling and it doesn't comfort me a bit. I wish it did.  I usually go silent when someone who is hurting badly says this, more to themselves than to me, and just let them talk.
> We all have challenging times in our lives at some point and feel stretched to the limit. Maybe we need real help or a definite plan that we are privy to not just patronizing words that are easily dismissed. I've seen a lot of loved ones die, many well before their time, a couple by suicide and I wonder, what was God's plan for them because it didn't work out too well.
> A plan implies sharing. In war, Generals make plans and share them with subordinates. How else can a battle be won? Similar strategies are employed in sports where teams have a game plan with specific plays to achieve certain results and victory.
> What good is a plan when it is kept hidden from those it directly concerns?
> ...


Imagine that God was a car company (chevy, ford, buick etc) God has in writing a license to build these cars.
However, is a car perfect? No. Just like man is not perfect. God is perfect and holy. 
God is all knowing which is known as omniscient. God is all powerful also known as omnipotent. 
God is also called the King of Kings which means he is the king above all other kings. 

When we speak against God we speak against the highest authority. If God is therefore holy and perfect, then how can we accuse God and tell him what he should be doing? Jesus has said to many of his followers John 1:15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before _it hated_ you.  Therefore, God is not surprised there are some here that are accusing him. There was some in the bible that didn't agree with Jesus and wanted to stone him to death. Do you that don't agree with him here want to stone Jesus to death?

But God has given you a freewill to make that choice. You'll either accept God in faith and believe or would you rather call him a liar?
God doesn't lie Romans 3: 3-4 
 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be [b]true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”

But there's a liar greater than man who is Lucifer, Satan the Devil. The Devil is trying to get mankind to join in his rebellion. 
The Devil is able to quietly whisper in your mind to turn you against God.  Satan knows that he can turn you against God and then you'll have no hope or salvation in God. Even the Devil asked God to jump off the temple to tempt God in Matthew 4. 
Jesus didn't jump because he said you shall not tempt the Lord your God. 

Therefore, anyone thinking or committed suicide was the idea of the devil. I know about this because I've attempted multiple times. 
I'm not going to share any of this with anyone here. I'm not going to give anyone any ideas. 

Even if you say IMO then know this from the book of Proverbs 3: 5 
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding.

Remember that Jesus suffered for all of mankind for his sins.
Romans 5:8  8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Even early Christians were burned at the stake like Nero. Even today in the Middle East Christians are being imprisoned and persecuted.

Suffering, persecution and name calling is part of a Christian life that he must endure. No matter if you suffer or have cancer know that God loves you. God did not makes us robots so that he can force decisions. Your decision to follow and believe him has to be sincere and from your heart.

Jesus said there are mansions that are prepared for you. If it weren't true, then I would not have told you.
Don't focus on this life that is temporary. Rather focus on God.
And I finalize with this from the bible Revelation 21 and Rev. 19


----------



## chic (Aug 28, 2022)

Gaer said:


> I understand.  When the time is right for you, you will experience whatever is spiritual or supernatural, you are supposed to know.
> I agree one should not take on beliefs unless personally varified by you!
> I would probably be an agnostic, had the Angel not appeared and told me my life plan, touched me on the forehead.
> This could have been you that experienced this instead of me.  I quit the church at age eight because I saw the hypocrisy.
> ...


That must be an incredible experience to have angels speak to you. If we all did, belief would come easier, I think.


----------



## Gaer (Aug 28, 2022)

chic said:


> That must be an incredible experience to have angels speak to you. If we all did, belief would come easier, I think.


Yes!  I wish that too!  The atmosphere of the worldis so filled with negativity, it's hard for love to be sent to the souls.
Ask your angels to be with you.  If you can't hear ot see them, you can feel their presence!  You really can!


----------



## chic (Aug 28, 2022)

Gaer said:


> Yes!  I wish that too!  The atmosphere of the worldis so filled with negativity, it's hard for love to be sent to the souls.
> Ask your angels to be with you.  If you can't hear ot see them, you can feel their presence!  You really can!


I have seen angels only twice. But I have seen them. Never heard one though. They so not speak to me. I do know you can feel their presence. I wish everyone had this ability.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

Been reading about the reformation
the dark ages
the martyrdom
the out and out sacrifice to even have a Bible, let alone find a safe place to read it
The Waldenses
What a people!
They gave their lives, their livelihood to read that Book
They etched out a living in the mountains to do so

Heh, I give an hour every morning to study the Bible
An hour
It's a struggle
I have to pray for spiritual drive to do even this
I do pray for wisdom, understanding, and retention
That works

but

I disgust myself, when comparing my studies to that of those in those days

Seems Satan found his greatest tool
ready availably of God's Word
Most of us have Bibles
Probably more than one
Do we even open it? 

Wait
Later
There's a show on I've been wanting to see


2 Thessalonians 11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion......


----------



## Pepper (Aug 29, 2022)

@Gary O' 
What is your method in reading the Bible for an hour each day?  Are you reading it in order, do you randomly pick a new spot every day?


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What is your method in reading the Bible for an hour each day? Are you reading it in order, do you randomly pick a new spot every day?


I am reading in order, right now
But use the concordance to compare texts
That can get involved if something looks conflicting
My aim is to let The Bible prove itself
I always pray for understanding

Have yet to be disappointed


----------



## chic (Aug 29, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I am reading in order, right now
> But use the concordance to compare texts
> That can get involved if something looks conflicting
> My aim is to let The Bible prove itself
> ...


The bible makes sense to you Gary? Especially the new testament? It leaves me with a lot of questions.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

chic said:


> The bible makes sense to you Gary? Especially the new testament? It leaves me with a lot of questions


It makes more sense than anything else around
especially now days

What some folks don't quite understand is, the New Testament ties strongly with the Old Testament
It's a *fulfillment *of the old 
Even the disciples didn't get it until much after His resurrection


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

chic said:


> It leaves me with a lot of questions


Does me too
Of which involves study
There's answers

I studied the prophecies of Daniel and The Revelation, and how they tied in.
Fascinating stuff
The 2300 days
Nebuchadnezzars dream
The end times
It's all playing out, and has played out with great precision

I've enjoyed reading the Gospels of Matthew thru John
and how Jesus handled the Pharisees and Sadducees
They were much like the churches of today


----------



## chic (Aug 29, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> It makes more sense than anything else around
> especially now days
> 
> What some folks don't quite understand is, the New Testament ties strongly with the Old Testament
> ...


I always wonder why Jesus didn't write something himself. He would have been literate. And why did it take anybody thirty plus years to write anything about his life instead of just word of mouth? This makes me uncomfortable.


----------



## Lara (Aug 29, 2022)

chic said:


> The bible makes sense to you Gary? Especially the new testament? It leaves me with a lot of questions.





Gary O' said:


> Does me too...Of which involves study. There's answers. I studied the prophecies of Daniel and The Revelation, and how they tied in. Fascinating stuff
> The 2300 days. Nebuchadnezzars dream. The end times. It's all playing out, and has played out with great precision...





Gary O' said:


> It makes more sense than anything else around...especially now days...the New Testament ties strongly with the Old Testament...It's a *fulfillment *of the old...


My late husband became a strong believer after studying the fulfillment of prophecies throughout history from the Old Testament to the New and even today. My husband would say, "there's just no way this many prophecies could possibly be filled with 100% accuracy from then until now" without it being God's plan.


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

chic said:


> I always wonder why Jesus didn't write something himself. He would have been literate.


He did
Thru his prophets


chic said:


> And why did it take anybody thirty plus years to write anything about his life instead of just word of mouth?



Word of mouth was much quicker at that time

The disciples were given The Holy Spirit
Nothing more potent than speaking with Tongues of Fire

They spoke in the languages of the people of which came from many nations, even though the disciples didn't know those languages

It spread like wildfire
....as intended


----------



## Gary O' (Aug 29, 2022)

​It was comforting to know there was not only a god
but
God
The Creator

It made sense and gave me better understanding when looking up, and seeing the many stars, on a clear night at our mountain cabin

And creation itself



but

'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.'
James 2:19 KJV

However, learning of The God of Love, and His forgiveness, gave me a peace

a peace never known

a conversion of thought, aims, desires


'and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.'
Philippians 4:7

That greatly surpasses anything I've ever experienced

I won't soon let that go


----------

