# Obama is going to destroy ivory next, some are valuable antiques !



## Happyflowerlady (Nov 12, 2013)

I just read this, and am amazed at the weird things that our president comes up with. 
Now, he intends to take millions of dollars worth of valuable ivory collector items, antiques, and other beautiful items and smash them (on camera) to proclaim that he is against illegal killing of elephants.
I imagine that most of us would be against the killing of elephants for the tusks, especially when some of them are nearing extinction, but I fail to see how this destruction of ivory that   may have been carved 200 years or more ago, is in any way related to stopping the elephant hunters today.


Isn't that kind of like the parents of the early 1950s who told their children to clean up their plates because there were all the starving children in China ?  (We all dutifully ate our dinners, but it didn't make any sense to us, even at that early age).


http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1353602/us-ivory-stockpile-be-publicly-destroyed-obamas-order


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## Fern (Nov 12, 2013)

Like you say it won't make one iota of difference to the traffickers


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## Sid (Nov 12, 2013)

That is not the real reason. This is actually part of Obamacare

  Ground up elephant tusk is the most powerful aphrodisiac known to man. The amount of powder it would take to make a ****** sized pill has the power of one thousand pills.  This stuff can be processed at 1% of the cost of ******. Can you imagane the saving in health care for millions of older Americans.

   Finally a government plan that makes sense.


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## Anne (Nov 12, 2013)

And the people almost worshipped him...


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## dbeyat45 (Nov 13, 2013)

Early-onset dementia?


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## rkunsaw (Nov 13, 2013)

dbeyat45 said:


> Early-onset dementia?




No, He's just plain stupid.


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## Happyflowerlady (Nov 13, 2013)

OH, I just totally agree with you, and the others of us , who have spoken out against the terrible killing of animals just to sell their skin or tusks, or other body part, like the rhinos who are becoming extinct because of rhino horn hunters. Here is the you tube video showing just some of the things we have kept in the Denver warehouse for all these years. Many animals are already extinct because of this senseless killing, and others are close to being killed out.
However, just crushing the ivory in a rock crusher, is certainly not going to stop any of the illegal hunters from killing these animals, and it will make the tusks even more valuable. Antique ivory carvings are extremely valuable, and now they are also irreplacable, so keeping the ones in existance, and not killing more elephants make much more sense than destroying a part of cultural history.
A few weeks ago, we had many people not able to work, claiming we could not pay them. Now, we have food stamps for the elderly cut back, so we have even less to live on. But we can just crush up a few million dollars worth of ivory, and throw it in the trash. This makes sense ...how ???

http://youtu.be/9-KC28AEKkg


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## Davey Jones (Nov 13, 2013)

If any of you visit Florida be sure to check this new place out.

http://www.nationalelephantcenter.org/


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## That Guy (Nov 13, 2013)




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## That Guy (Nov 14, 2013)

Friend was telling me how exciting it was seeing the elephants on his trip to Africa.  We got to talking about how intelligent they are and I began to wonder if, when the whales who are also very intelligent returned to the sea, they stayed behind.  Beautiful creatures.


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## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2013)

When is this going to take place?
Are you sure that this is what he plans to do?
Is there a reference to him saying it?

The reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure that this would make the papers worldwide, and I haven't heard a whisper.

Ok. I've done some digging and found my own references.



> *Ivory stockpile to be publicly destroyed as Obama seeks to end illegal trade*
> 
> TV cameras to record smashing of tusks and intricately carved items – but African elephants are already on brink of extinction
> 
> ...


I hope it works. Better to destroy ivory than lose elephants as a species.


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## Happyflowerlady (Nov 14, 2013)

Warri, If i thought it would even make a difference in the elephant killing towards stopping it, I would be glad; however, all I can see is that it is not going to stop illegal killing for the tusks, and now the price will be even higher since so many of the artifacts are now destroyed.
There is a link to the news article that I read posted in my first post on this topic, and also a short interview on you tube that actually shows the ivory, Siberian Tigers, and other illegal animals/animal products that are in the warehouse in Denver. The video link is in the second post I made.


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## Anne (Nov 14, 2013)

Seems like this would just make them more rare and valuable; hence; more killing.


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## Sid (Nov 14, 2013)

This has been going on for years.
    Poachers kill 100 elephants for the ivory. Government seizes it and destroys it. Poachers kill another 100 to replace it.  The government just created a never ending circle.
    Government legalizes and regulates it. Industry will be regulated to death in a short time.
    This stuff is not in the market cycle. Why waste thousands if not millions storing it?


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

Omgoodness Happyflowerlady. What?? Obama destroyed valuable ivory artifacts to protest against the killing of elephant? Seriously? I guess so since you all have posted links of proof but how senseless is that? And violent. If Trump had done that the media worldwide would have had a heyday with it, yet clearly I nor anyone else in this thread was aware of Obama doing that until you all posted these links. I smell a secret cover-up…lol. Bizarre.


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## Shalimar (Aug 29, 2015)

Personally I applaud President Obama for taking a stand. I don't wear fur. Would I destroy fur coats if I felt it would make a point against the barbaric practice of slaughtering animals for the vanity of people? In a heartbeat. The value of these artificats are not the issue IMHO, the immorality of how they were obtained is. In fact, in this instance, morality "trumps" money.


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## Shirley (Aug 29, 2015)

This is an old thread. Many of the people who replied no longer post here. I wonder why?

Did he actually go through with destroying works of art? 

Shalimar, I have to disagree with you here. Destroying art won't bring back the dead elephants. I don't condone further killing of elephants or any endangered animal. However, destroying art reminds me of the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statues.  I nearly cried when I saw that.


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## Sunny (Aug 29, 2015)

Here's an article from June of this year.

http://www.livescience.com/51263-ivory-crush-times-square.html

I agree that this seems a poor way to decrease the value of ivory. Seems to me it would do just the opposite.


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## Happyflowerlady (Aug 29, 2015)

Great article, Sunny !  This article references the first  crushing , which did indeed take place in November of 2013, and also talks about another one that they just did this spring. 
Obviously, the first destruction of ivory didn't change anything; and so now they are destroying more priceless antiques. 
Why don't they just crack down on the illegal elephant hunters, instead of destroying ivory that does <<<nothing>>> to save any elephant from being killed ? 

It seems to me that if they sold these valuable carvings to the people who want to collect old ivory, it would be sellinging ivory that no new elephant had to die for, and the money from the sales could be then used to increase security to help stop poachers. So, it would serve two purposes at once, where this seems to serve no purpose.


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## Denise1952 (Aug 29, 2015)

this is a super, old post Lara.  I wondered too at first.  Then I saw "that guys" stuff and he's been gone, too long


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## Denise1952 (Aug 29, 2015)

Since others are posting to this old topic, I will add that I think "show business" is alive and well, even in our capitol.  I am wondering when Obama might have his own reality show?  Shoot, I don't watch tv so maybe he already does?  I'm a democrat and embarrassed at some of his antics.  Can we please have a grown up for president?  Oh nevermind, probably aren't any.


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

Regarding "Old Topic": I had typed something else in the search box and this thread came up. I knew it was from 2013 but thought it was appropriate to compare Obama's hushed act of violent protest (which did take place…see post 19) to Trump's treatment by the media over trivia…like world coverage regarding his comb-over. Will that hair-thing EVER get old? sheesh. TV time is expensive and our time is precious. 

The public deserves to be intelligently informed on serious issues, like destroying artifacts! Is Obama above of our laws regarding peaceful protesting? 

Shirley, I too wonder where all the members have gone on this site. Bullied off by 24/7 insults in political threads? I don't know but that can't help.

Are we not allowed to bump an old topic? If so, why is it in the search box? If one feels they have nothing to add then can't they just scroll past it? And who says 2013 is old? Where is the cut off point? It relates to today as I put in my post.

The thread was started by Happyflowerlady and she is still a very active member here. I appreciated that she was bringing this topic to our attention.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

I have a couple of pieces of contemporary schrimshaw on whale's tooth which I bought in the '80s in Hawaii.  There were sold with legal exemption papers to show that they were pre-ban and legal to have.


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## Denise1952 (Aug 29, 2015)

I didn't mean any offense Lara, I just thought you might not know it was old.  I think it's well-worth talking about, old or not.  I am not into bashing conservatives, especially since I am so conservative about some issues.  I should call my self "middle of the road" if there is one.  I do not agree with bashing, and if you search some of my posts/replies to such, you'll see I fought as hard as I could, against it, but I didn't get anywhere.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "louder".  I respect others opinions, but am against personal attacks, rudeness, and bashing when it comes to disagreeing with someone else's opinion.  

I wish I could think of the two guys I heard debating on a radio talkshow, they have, or had a program.  I never heard such different opinions discussed with such class (for lack of a better word). These two were excellent at presenting their stuff, without bashing each other, or their individual opinions Denise


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

Most of the folks posting have never been there or seen what goes on and only offer there comments. There is no way to police ivory hunters. But the local folks get feed (noun present tense) for a couple of months. If you ask them how (and I have) they think, the say easy for whitey to set in chair and watch TV.
currently in South Africa the entire South African Defence force has been activated to combat poachers.it consists of 24 soldiers, 7 outdated semi auto rifles 2 21/2 ton trucks and 1 non operational Russian Helicopter. There budget is $350 U.S.
Thank Mandala.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

The US isn't the only one doing this to curb illegal ivory trafficking, also France, Belgium, China, etc.  http://www.traffic.org/home/2015/5/...-domestic-ivory-market-during-destructio.html


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

An Internet post isn't an action plan, but they are warm and fuzzy.


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

nwlady, I wasn't offended in the least by anything you said. My comment was in reply to Shirley's about where all the members have gone from this 2013 thread. Oh, and yes, I knew it was from 2013 and deemed it relevant to today when I posted my comment.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

Lara said:


> Regarding "Old Topic": I had typed something else in the search box and this thread came up. I knew it was from 2013 but thought it was appropriate to compare Obama's hushed act of violent protest (which did take place…see post 19) to Trump's treatment by the media over trivia…like world coverage regarding his comb-over. Will that hair-thing EVER get old? sheesh. TV time is expensive and our time is precious.
> 
> The public deserves to be intelligently informed on serious issues, like destroying artifacts! Is Obama above of our laws regarding peaceful protesting?
> 
> ...


I didn't know of this until this old thread  popped up but upon reflection I do see some wisdom in it.  Largely symbolic but it would not only remove this precious material from the market, it would have dramatically showed the world that we do care what happens to these beautiful creatures which die to please some art enthusiasts desire for a knickknack.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Largely symbolic but it would not only remove this precious material from the market, it would have dramatically showed the world that we do care what happens to these beautiful creatures which die to please some art enthusiasts desire for a knickknack.



I agree, this has to do with wild elephant conservation and saving them (and other animals) from death just so people can sell their tusks for profit.



> In recent years, as many as 22,000 elephants—possibly more—have been killed annually for their ivory to supply the illicit ivory trade.


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## Cookie (Aug 29, 2015)

I think we're all against the ivory trade and there must be a good reason to destroy the stockpiles, someone out there wants it and will pay lots of money for it. Who are the ivory customers I do not know, if we could identify and eliminate the market it would be a big feat. Objects made of ivory are not art in my view any more than fur coats or relics made out of human body parts.

I do have some items that I think is ivory as well, an antique bracelet and some beads that I would never wear and I don't know why I bother to keep. 

As far as this being an old thread, I have seen people move on since being here, probably normal on forums, and I've noticed most posts are quite tame lately.


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

Shirley said:


> Did he actually go through with destroying works of art? Shalimar, I have to disagree with you here. Destroying art won't bring back the dead elephants. I don't condone further killing of elephants or any endangered animal. However, destroying art reminds me of the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statues.  I nearly cried when I saw that.


Yes, Obama did follow through with the destruction in November of 2013 and again this past spring 2015 (post 19). I agree with you, Shirley. I wanted to cry too when I saw those Buddha statues destroyed. I just watched something on PBS where there are two high tech experts recreating those artifacts but it will never be the same. Sad.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I think we're all against the ivory trade and there must be a good reason to destroy the stockpiles, someone out there wants it and will pay lots of money for it.



The main reason to do everything possible to stop the illegal ivory trade, the possible extinction of these beautiful animals.  https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/elephant?_ga=1.140386803.1188735992.1438309445


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

Lara said:


> Yes, Obama did follow through with the destruction in November of 2013 and again this past spring 2015 (post 19). I agree with you, Shirley. I wanted to cry too when I saw those Buddha statues destroyed. I just watched something on PBS where there are two high tech experts recreating those artifacts but it will never be the same. Sad.



Priorities!!  What I think is sad is the destruction of beautiful animals just to satisfy the selfish desires of a few who want a trophy on the top of the TV!!!!!!!!


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## Jackie22 (Aug 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I think we're all against the ivory trade and there must be a good reason to destroy the stockpiles, someone out there wants it and will pay lots of money for it. Who are the ivory customers I do not know, if we could identify and eliminate the market it would be a big feat. Objects made of ivory are not art in my view any more than fur coats or relics made out of human body parts.
> 
> I do have some items that I think is ivory as well, an antique bracelet and some beads that I would never wear and I don't know why I bother to keep.
> 
> As far as this being an old thread, I have seen people move on since being here, probably normal on forums, and I've noticed most posts are quite tame lately.



I totally agree with this post, especially, " ivory not being art".

We should all be more concerned about how to save the elephant.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

I love art too.  But is there any reason that these configurations of expression cannot be fashioned from Clay or some NON-PRECIOUS material?  Would they not be just as beautiful as the Ivory creations?  If not can someone explain why?


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Priorities!!  What I think is sad is the destruction of beautiful animals just to satisfy the selfish desires of a few who want a trophy on the top of the TV!!!!!!!!


Way to heavy for a TV. Most trophy hunters are to busy to watch tv. If you want to stop it but a bounty on the poachers as the post is about that and not trophy hunters


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Way to heavy for a TV. Most trophy hunters are to busy to watch tv. If you want to stop it but a bounty on the poachers as the post is about that and not trophy hunters



This is not about "trophy" hunters.  It is about those who purchase art pieces made of elephant Ivory.  Trophy hunters is an entirely different subject.  I used the term in my post to identify the people who buy the art pieces made from this illegal material.


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## Shirley (Aug 29, 2015)

Is anyone saying that these creations are not art? I am positively not advocating the killing of more elephants. I think anyone caught killing them or in anyway connected to their death should be put in jail for a long, long time.  But it just seems like a shame to destroy artwork that is already created. Maybe confiscate them, put them in a museum, charge admission, take the money to stop the killing and help increase their habitat.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

There is no question about the talent reflected in these art pieces.  They're possession or display helps create the urge to own.  It only serves to add to the problem rather than snuff it out.  My question remains, why can't the same art be made of a material that doesn't require killing a elephant to obtain?


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## Shirley (Aug 29, 2015)

I'm not an expert on ivory but I believe that it has a lustrous quality that is impossible to replicate in any other medium.  That doesn't justify the killing of more elephants but why destroy that which we already have? All that money could be used to help us poor folks.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

I would just be repeating myself if I once again express my ideas as to why the right approach was taken in this case.


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## BobF (Aug 29, 2015)

If Obama has spoken, it is like a message from heaven to some.


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

It's a politician song and dance. These type of trade ceilings and floor only raise the prices. Take the save the whales people they went out and got some boats and did something. Oh well time for another glass of whine.


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## Cookie (Aug 29, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I'm not an expert on ivory but I believe that it has a lustrous quality that is impossible to replicate in any other medium.  That doesn't justify the killing of more elephants but why destroy that which we already have? All that money could be used to help us poor folks.



Shirley, if it was kept, someone would want it and be willing to pay for it, or steal it, even if it was in a museum.  That is the problem with humans, once it is deemed a museum piece and valuable, greedy people want it and then want more and more and more and then the elephant are in extreme danger.  It's best to dispose of it all so that it doesn't become a commodity.  It is tainted by the cruelty to elephants.


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> There is no question about the talent reflected in these art pieces.  They're possession or display helps create the urge to own.  It only serves to add to the problem rather than snuff it out.  My question remains, why can't the same art be made of a material that doesn't require killing a elephant to obtain?



Elk molars (teeth) are too small.


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## Davey Jones (Aug 29, 2015)

Does burning the ivory tusk same the elephants?


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> Does burning the ivory tusk same the elephants?



If instead of same you mean save, the answer is yes read the above posts Davey.


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

Davey Jones said:
			
		

> Does burning the ivory tusks save the elephant?



No it doesn't. Obama burned a lot of ivory in 2013 and it did nothing so they did it again in the spring….nothing.



			
				Happyflowerlady said:
			
		

> This article references the first crushing , which did indeed take place in November of 2013, and also talks about another one that they just did this spring.Obviously, the first destruction of ivory didn't change anything; and so now they are destroying more priceless antiques.
> 
> Why don't they just crack down on the illegal elephant hunters, instead of destroying ivory that does <<<nothing>>> to save any elephant from being killed ?
> 
> *It seems to me that if they sold these valuable carvings to the people who want to collect old ivory, it would be selling ivory that no new elephant had to die for, and the money from the sales could be then used to increase security to help stop poachers. So, it would serve two purposes at once, where this seems to serve no purpose*​



*The solution is to devalue ivory to where no one has any need for it since they can't make money off it. 
Burning the valuable artifacts is only going to increase it's rarity and desire to replace it and thus increase it's $Worth$ *​
I think Shirley had a great idea too...to *put them in a museum and collect donations to patrol and keep the elephants safe.*


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

"That's like saying all of the great master's paintings must be burned  and no more art may be created because someone might steal it."

I guess I don't see the relationship here.


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## Shalimar (Aug 29, 2015)

I think if the Great Masters's paintings were painted on canvas made from human skin, many would argue for their destruction.  It depends on one's priorities, for some the origin trumps the result, no matter how beautiful.


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## charlotta (Aug 29, 2015)

I dont beliieve this is accurate.  The newspaper that published this is in China.  Fox would have been on this and broadcasting it to the world.  Please check the facts


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

charlotta said:


> I dont beliieve this is accurate.  The newspaper that published this is in China.  Fox would have been on this and broadcasting it to the world.  Please check the facts


If you're talking about Obama burning all the ivory artifacts then, yes, it's true. There are many many accounts of this. If you google "Obama burns ivory" and click on google's images then you will see a staggering amount of pictures of statues and other things. They were all first displayed in Times Square and then crushed. 

The article says,"Critics contend that it may actually have the opposite effect. By reducing the ivory supply, such events will drive the price up and thus stimulate the poaching of even more elephants, so the argument goes."

Here is the highly respected Scientific American that explains it all. Just click on it and you can click on the photos to enlarge them. 

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/files/2013/11/Ivory-elephant-figurine.jpg


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## Lara (Aug 29, 2015)

Here are just some of the 1 Ton of ivory items, worth 12 million dollars, crushed by Obama into powder. I understand the need to protest the senseless killing of elephants and the need to raise money for bringing these poachers down but destruction doesn't fix destruction as the results have found. Nothing has improved in the 2 years after this destructive protest. So we have learned of the need to come up with a more effective plan…whatever it may be. Five photos below (one came out really small).
Scientific American: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/why-the-us-destroyed-its-ivory-stockpile/


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## Shalimar (Aug 29, 2015)

Elephants matter more than art to many. Scientific American magazine has drifted considerably from the impartial reputation it once enjoyed. I refuse to own any object bought with the slaughter of terrified elephants, some of them babies. To me these artifacts are at best a "beautiful" abomination. To digress, this reminds me of the beautiful, hand stitched embroidered gloves so valued by wealthy clients in the 19th century. These "works of art" were stitched by impoverished women for pennies on the dollar. Many of these "employed" women died a  miserable early death due to malutrition, consumption, etc.  Today, those textiles are worth a considerable amount of money. Would I buy them? Never.


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## mitchezz (Aug 29, 2015)

How is it a secret cover up???.........it's being televised!( in response to Lara's post 15)

I think it will be worthwhile for the shock value. It sends out a very clear message that it's not acceptable to display ivory ornaments etc.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 29, 2015)

Lara, your position regarding the President is clear but let's keep it factual.  You have said repeatedly "Obama" crushed, burned, destroyed" art.  He did not personally do any such thing.  Many were and are involved in the business of trying to preserve the last of the elephants left in the wild.  I applaud all involved. Nothing you or I post here will change the situation but hopefully the actions being taken worldwide will.


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## Cookie (Aug 29, 2015)

Most of that stuff doesn't even qualify as 'art' to my mind -- I find it ugly, and it appears to be mostly religious artifacts/trinkets. I agree with destroying it to discourage its sale, even though it seems like a daunting task. It should really be unavailable to the mass market in those countries where it is popular. But from the reading, it seems like it is being used as a currency for terrorists, which makes the situation even worse.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Most of that stuff doesn't even qualify as 'art' to my mind -- I find it ugly, and it appears to be mostly religious artifacts/trinkets. I agree with destroying it to discourage its sale, even though it seems like a daunting task. It should really be unavailable to the mass market in those countries where it is popular. But from the reading, it seems like it is being used as a currency for terrorists, which makes the situation even worse.



I completely agree Cookie, much of it to me is tacky at best, and if it's illegal it should be destroyed to assure it's completely taken off the global market.  Knowing these things are being crushed or burned doesn't sadden me in the least, watching wildlife numbers dwindle due to senseless killings from greedy poachers, does make me sad.  And to know of all the orphaned elephants affected by this, who I understand depend on their mother's milk for the first two years of their lives, are left vulnerable, really sickens me.


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## Shalimar (Aug 29, 2015)

I just don't understand how people can separate suffering from artifacts. I am haunted by the pic which contained a bracelet fashioned after an elephant head. Ewwww. So disgusting.


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## chic (Aug 30, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> Does burning the ivory tusk same the elephants?



No it doesn't. Perhaps Obama is trying to force people into an awareness of the problem by his actions which are extreme and generate much media coverage. Maybe he should burn one of the White House grand pianos? The keys of old pianos used to be made of ivory.


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## Lara (Aug 30, 2015)

Cultures...When I saw all these pics of the ivory "artifacts", I too thought they were tacky and unappealing. We don't like this stuff because we are from a different culture. These are treasured to the tune of 12 million dollars in other cultures. While very wrong, it's deep-seated tradition for them. They don't see it as wrong. 

Hatred for America must have grown enormously from China etc. as they watched us make such a public display in Times Square of arrogantly destroying their culture of what they look at as a lot of respected talented artistic labor for their religious traditions (I repeat, their view). Our actions didn't save one elephant.

Foreign relations..."I don't care if they like us or not", you say? Well, foreign relations with the countries buying this stuff, mostly China, is crucially important to saving these elephants if we want them to work with us to save the elephants from today forward. We can't do anything about what's already done. 

Moving forward...Of course it struck me as to how many elephants lost their lives for this unappealing artwork. It made me sick. No one has a softer heart for animals as I do. Unfortunately, what's done is done. Nothing we do will bring back these elephants…it only makes the ivory worth more as they replace their "treasures"...which is counterproductive to our efforts to save the elephants. Only money will save the elephants. Money for law enforcement and educational programs over there, etc.

Peaceful plan...If we want these people over there to work with us to save the elephants we must have good foreign relations. A public display of disrespect for their treasures isn't going to help. We must come up with a peaceful plan where we can all work together on this….using our intelligence rather than our emotional anger.

We Kill Animals too for our own consumerism…Most of us don't see it as wrong. Do you use any of these products?

We kill *animals *to eat (even baby animals for lamb and veal) when we could very easily live a Paleo diet…and be healthier at that.  

We kill *pigs* and make plastics, floor waxes, crayons, chalk, adhesives, shaving cream, soap, make-up, insulation, rubber, anti-freeze, etc 

We kill *cattle *and make wax paper, lubricants, paints, candles, shampoo, cosmetics, etc 

We kill *goats, pigs cattle sheep & exotic species*,* use their hides* for wallets, purses, furniture, shoes, car seats, upholstery…anyone have leather seats in their car?

We kill* sheep and use their bones, hooves and horns* for brushes, gelatin, tape, and pet food.


1. Note to Mitchezz…it was a joke and had an LOL there to indicate the humor in my post #15.
2. Note to AZ Jim…Obama was responsible for this destructive protest. Of course he didn't operate the crusher machine himself. The protest was government run.
3. Note to Sea Breeze…I agree that they are illegal and should be out of global circulation. It's Obama's public, destructive, violent protest in Time Square, which only increased ivory's worth, and probably offended China greatly. That bothers me when a more peaceful approach would have been more effective with educational awareness programs, and more law enforcement.
4. Note to Shalimar…you said you care more about animals than artifacts. I do too but it's already been done. Time to make constructive choices now for the future instead of wasting time publicly humiliating China (for one) for past wrongs. Do you use any of the products above?


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## Jackie22 (Aug 30, 2015)

With some research you will find that China is destroying/crushing ivory too, they have done so several times as someone has already pointed out, many countries are working together to do what is necessary to eliminate the destruction of the elephant.


Why Destroy Ivory? :: 96 Elephants


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## AZ Jim (Aug 30, 2015)

Lara said:


> Cultures...When I saw all these pics of the ivory "artifacts", I too thought they were tacky and unappealing. We don't like this stuff because we are from a different culture. These are treasured to the tune of 12 million dollars in other cultures. While very wrong, it's deep-seated tradition for them. They don't see it as wrong.
> 
> Hatred for America must have grown enormously from China etc. as they watched us make such a public display in Times Square of arrogantly destroying their culture of what they look at as a lot of respected talented artistic labor for their religious traditions (I repeat, their view). Our actions didn't save one elephant.
> 
> ...



Note to Lara,  All of the animals we kill and that you used as examples in this post are killed for food.  They are raised for that purpose.  The fact that we use every part of these animals for byproducts is an example of good stewardship not waste.  Your defense of "art" at the cost of the few remaining elephants is hard to understand and as you are finding equally hard to justify.

While I find you persistence commendable, it is trumped by those equally passionate in the cause of the elephants and rhinos..


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## AprilT (Aug 30, 2015)

Add to that list ^ http://article.wn.com/view/2014/02/18/Prince_William_Urges_Buckingham_Palace_to_Destroy_All_1200_P/


In addition, video and story on the illegal hunting and  poaching of elephants and rhinos 

http://newsafrica.co.uk/ugandan-court-to-release-smuggled-ivory/


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 30, 2015)

Lara said:


> 3. Note to Sea Breeze…I agree that they are illegal and should be out of global circulation. It's Obama's public, destructive, violent protest in Time Square, which only increased ivory's worth, and probably offended China greatly.



That Obama, he's a monster!!  Don't know what we can do about him!   Seriously now, what was done by the US and other countries with illegal ivory is make a statement and make a first step toward stopping this killing/poaching for statues and trinkets.

  We do kill animals for meat, and will many times use what we can for other products.  I'm not against hunting animals for food either..._but_, this falls into the category of Trophy Hunting, where animals are killed so some fat cat can sit in his den with a fully stuffed lion displayed on a bear rug. 

 Killing these elephants and other animals and leaving their babies orphaned to profit from their tusks is disgusting, one reason I like animals more than most people.  That's my opinion anyway, our President did good.


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## Shalimar (Aug 30, 2015)

My god, looking at those smug individuals in that graveyard makes me homicidal! Gimme a crossbow, and let's go people hunting. Anybody wanna come with? We can make lampshades out of their skins, shrink their heads, and sell it on E Bay. All proceeds donated to the preservation of animals and their ethical treatment etc.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 30, 2015)

Sad thing is Shalimar, they're not alone, plenty more like them out there in the world.


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## Shalimar (Aug 30, 2015)

You are right SB, but we have to start somewhere. Many of my kid's generation won't wear fur, think it is an abomination. My son and his wife help pay for the care of an orphaned baby elephant in Africa. There is hope.


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## mitchezz (Aug 30, 2015)

I don't think anyone can seriously defend poaching for ivory.........just became another Obama is evil thread.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I just read this, and am amazed at the weird things that our president comes up with.
> Now, he intends to take millions of dollars worth of valuable ivory collector items, antiques, and other beautiful items and smash them (on camera) to proclaim that he is against illegal killing of elephants.
> I imagine that most of us would be against the killing of elephants for the tusks, especially when some of them are nearing extinction, but I fail to see how this destruction of ivory that   may have been carved 200 years or more ago, is in any way related to stopping the elephant hunters today.
> 
> ...




Poachers can hide their illegal ivory in a 'legal' ivory market.  That's why a number of countries have decided to do exactly the same thing.  
The terrible suffering of entire elephant families for the sake of junk made of their teeth is a travesty and it must be stopped at all costs or there will be no elephants left at all.  

Baby elephants who are found, orphaned beside their dead faceless mothers are taken in when they are found and cared for by rescues but what happens to them when they are grown and they have tusks?  They will be poached in turn and eventually there won't be a single one left.


http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists...anthony-south-africas-elephant-whisperer.php#

Lawrence Anthony, known as the Elephant Whisperer saved two rogue herds from destruction and when he died, those two herds made their way thru Zululand on a pilgrimage to honour the man who saved their lives.  No one knows how they, who were miles away, knew that he had died but for two days, after they arrived back at the place where he gave them a second chance at life, they quietly paid homage to their rescuer and honoured him by their presence.  And then they disappeared back into the forest.  

  For their sake, the ivory must be destroyed.  It was stolen and doesn't belong to people.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Warri, If i thought it would even make a difference in the elephant killing towards stopping it, I would be glad; however, all I can see is that it is not going to stop illegal killing for the tusks, and now the price will be even higher since so many of the artifacts are now destroyed.
> There is a link to the news article that I read posted in my first post on this topic, and also a short interview on you tube that actually shows the ivory, Siberian Tigers, and other illegal animals/animal products that are in the warehouse in Denver. The video link is in the second post I made.




In the countries where they do it, it shines a light on the violence and the tragedy of it and will start more of those people thinking about how wrong it is.  How many years do you think they have tried just hiring people to try and protect the elephants and yet the slaughter continues and extinction draws nearer.  Sometimes it takes a 'big' attention getter to get peoples attention.

Countries that have destroyed stockpiles of confiscated and illegal ivory:



 the roll includes *Gabon*, the *Philippines*, USA, *China*, France, *Chad*, *Belgium*, Hong Kong, *Kenya* and *Ethiopia*, making *UAE* and *Congo* the 11th and 12th countries to do so within the last three years.Apr 29, 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...es-heres-why-thats-so-important-10213544.html

'...Why are these countries destroying their ivory?  In part, it is in protest: to send a message to the world community to stop buying ivory.  In part, it is a message: symbolizing a countries’ intention to adopt a zero-tolerance attitude to poachers and traffickers. But it is much more than that. The international trade in ivory has been banned since 1989, when it marked the collapse of the then principle ivory markets in Europe and America and *the beginning of a steady decline in demand in Japan....**'    
*


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

Lara said:


> ............
> Hatred for America must have grown enormously from China etc. as they watched us make such a public display in Times Square of arrogantly destroying their culture of what they look at as a lot of respected talented artistic labor for their religious traditions (I repeat, their view). Our actions didn't save one elephant.
> 
> ............Most of us don't see it as wrong. Do you use any of these products?
> ...




You would be wrong about that Lara because China has done the same thing!  Beijing Destroys Confiscated Ivory:

http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/29/beijing-destroys-confiscated-ivory-in-effort-to-curb-illegal-trade/?_r=0



Also a Paleo diet is focused on meat consumption and studies (I can get you links) have shown that health outcomes  (when it comes to obesity, diabetes, heart disease and some forms of cancer)on a veg diet are better than a meat inclusive diet. A study was also done that showed that a meat inclusive diet, long term, is less environmentally sustainable than a veg diet and particularly as we approach a global population of 9+ billion.  And almost every one of those products you mention can just as easily be made without any animal (cruelty) involved.

Also it was mentioned education and law enforcement as a 'better' way to end the slaughter of elephants.  How's that been working with drug abuse?  Lots of education, lots of law enforcement and drug addicts and dealers and producers are still haunting our societies.   It seems to me that 'good' 'law abiding' folks tend to be more concerned about their wallets than anything else and it seems to me that the possibility of losing the money they spent on their 'trinkets' will go a lot further than gentle persuasion and requests to not hurt the elephants.


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## Lara (Aug 31, 2015)

Thank you Debbie. The fact that China has done the same thing does change the picture. 

Also, I had forgotten that paleo included meat. I should have said vegetarian. Thank you for the reminder.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

You're welcome Lara.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 31, 2015)

Lara said:


> The fact that China has done the same thing does change the picture.



From the Fish and Wildlife Federation


 The following lists the governments and the year they destroyed ivory:



Kenya, 1989, 1991, 2011, 2015; 

Zambia,1992;

 United Arab Emirates, 1992, 2015;

Gabon, 2012;

 Philippines, 2013;

 China,2014, 2015;

 Chad, 2014; 

France, 2014;

Belgium 2014; 

Hong Kong 2014; 

Ethiopia2015;

Congo, 2015.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 31, 2015)

In the two sides of this persistence doesn't not trump logic.  All the countries that destroy this ill gotten booty are helping underline the fact that thousands of these animals have been slaughtered to yield the product being supported as "art". If this is art, I don't want any of it.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

And as that comment below shows, there has been a steady decline in market demand over the decades.  I've seen documentaries too, where it's suggested that the purchase of ivory items occurs often in a hidden black market sort of way which would indicate that those who purchase it are fully aware that it's criminal.  So if those illegal new ivory products can disappear into an existing supply of these older items, then it's obvious that the camouflage needs to be destroyed.

'when it marked the collapse of the then principle ivory markets in Europe and America and *the beginning of a steady decline in demand in Japan....**'  


*


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