# A false dichotomy, if the Coronavirus cannot be completely eliminated



## grahamg (Apr 30, 2020)

It is my belief a false dichotomy has been put forward so far as the "elimination" of this pandemic virus infection.

If lockdown, and social distancing cannot ever rid the world of the virus, or stop it coming back again after levels of deaths and infection rates fall, and the lockdown is relaxed, then all that can be achieved by the unparalleled economic virtual standstill, (or 30%/40% loss in GDP anyway), is a process whereby the world learns to live with the virus, at least until a truly effective vaccine has been found, and then rolled out across the entire world.

Lockdown does not equal defeating this virus therefore, only ever controlling rates of infection, and therefore arguments as to whether you want to die a terrible death as a result of the virus, or want to see others die in a similar way, are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Deaths will continue, maybe ameliorated somewhat by improved therapies for those infected as more is learnt, but nothing more than that is possible.


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## Judycat (Apr 30, 2020)

I just read a history of the Spanish Flu. The second wave in the fall of that year was made worse because doctors were advising the public to take mega doses of aspirin. Turns out aspirin poisoning caused a similar effect on the lungs as the flu did. Interesting. Maybe it would help to stay off OTC meds so your body isn't working to rid itself of the toxins from Advil, aspirin, and Tylenol while fighting the virus.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 30, 2020)

grahamg said:


> It is my belief a false dichotomy has been put forward so far as the "elimination" of this pandemic virus infection.
> 
> If lockdown, and social distancing cannot ever rid the world of the virus, or stop it coming back again after levels of deaths and infection rates fall, and the lockdown is relaxed, then all that can be achieved by the unparalleled economic virtual standstill, (or 30%/40% loss in GDP anyway), is a process whereby the world learns to live with the virus, at least until a truly effective vaccine has been found, and then rolled out across the entire world.
> 
> Lockdown does not equal defeating this virus therefore, only ever controlling rates of infection, and therefore arguments as to whether you want to die a terrible death as a result of the virus, or want to see others die in a similar way, are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Deaths will continue, maybe ameliorated somewhat by improved therapies for those infected as more is learnt, but nothing more than that is possible.


I'd love to argue this, but I can't!  Very real!


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## chic (Apr 30, 2020)

Initially I was so on board about quarantining which medical experts told us in early March would flatten the curve and we'd all get out by the end of April. Happily we relinquished our freedoms. Day by day the story changed. Well the curve isn't flattening as we expected. Let's close everything non essential. Shelter in place. Just Stay Home! And restrictions will lift in May. By early April, No this isn't enough. We must impose a curfew. And you should wear masks if you must go out for groceries etc. We hope to reopen by June or July. Wearily people surrendered yet more of their few remaining freedoms. By mid April. We're nearing the peak we think the curve is going to flatten, there are fewer new cases. But we're going to double down on restrictions. And then came the cherry on the parfait - you really can't go out again until we have a vaccine and that's two years away.

Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. We scared you good and it worked. And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.


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## Judycat (Apr 30, 2020)

People are stupid though.  A beach is opened they descend upon it like hordes of flies. Doesn't matter if the beach is already crowded. Gotta get me my square foot of surf and sand.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 30, 2020)

chic said:


> Initially I was so on board about quarantining which medical experts told us in early March would flatten the curve and we'd all get out by the end of April. Happily we relinquished our freedoms. Day by day the story changed. Well the curve isn't flattening as we expected. Let's close everything non essential. Shelter in place. Just Stay Home! And restrictions will lift in May. By early April, No this isn't enough. We must impose a curfew. And you should wear masks if you must go out for groceries etc. We hope to reopen by June or July. Wearily people surrendered yet more of their few remaining freedoms. By mid April. We're nearing the peak we think the curve is going to flatten, there are fewer new cases. But we're going to double down on restrictions. And then came the cherry on the parfait - you really can't go out again until we have a vaccine and that's two years away.
> 
> Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. We scared you good and it worked. And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.


This did not happen in my state.  I don“t understand the loss of freedom thing so I wish you would be more specific.  What freedoms were lost?  What rights were lost?  Wearing a mask turns out to be no big deal, like I thought it would be.

 A lot of us stay home mostly anyway.  I miss the restaurants which are reopening now.  But I doubt I’ll go, I’ve lost weight-a good thing.  I miss moves but didn't go that much.  Anyway, my freedom and rights were never lost, sorry yours were.


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## StarSong (Apr 30, 2020)

chic said:


> Initially I was so on board about quarantining which medical experts told us in early March would flatten the curve and we'd all get out by the end of April. Happily we relinquished our freedoms. Day by day the story changed. Well the curve isn't flattening as we expected. Let's close everything non essential. Shelter in place. Just Stay Home! And restrictions will lift in May. By early April, No this isn't enough. *We must impose a curfew.* And you should wear masks if you must go out for groceries etc. We hope to reopen by June or July. Wearily people surrendered yet more of their few remaining freedoms. By mid April. We're nearing the peak we think the curve is going to flatten, there are fewer new cases. But we're going to double down on restrictions. And then came the cherry on the parfait - you really can't go out again until we have a vaccine and that's two years away.
> 
> Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. We scared you good and it worked. And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.


 
Your city/state has a curfew? Wow!!! 
No curfew here and CA is among the most rigorous with regard to shut-downs, masks and social distancing rules.


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## Sunny (Apr 30, 2020)

I did a search for curfews in the U.S. and didn't find any. I did find one mention, dated April 6, saying that the mayor of Boston suggested a curfew between 9 PM and 6 AM.  Suggested, not enforced.  Or are there actually curfews in place?

Another participant in this discussion was lamenting the loss of his Constitutional rights.  When I asked , "What rights have you lost?"  he replied along the lines of, "Well, not in my state, but others have."

I think there is an awful lot of latent hysteria on this subject. Remember "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?"  Maybe right now, the only thing we have to fear is the virus itself. Not the big, bad liberals trying to take anyone's rights away.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I did a search for curfews in the U.S. and didn't find any. I did find one mention, dated April 6, saying that the mayor of Boston suggested a curfew between 9 PM and 6 AM.  Suggested, not enforced.  Or are there actually curfews in place?
> 
> Another participant in this discussion was lamenting the loss of his Constitutional rights.  When I asked , "What rights have you lost?"  he replied along the lines of, "Well, not in my state, but others have."
> 
> I think there is an awful lot of latent hysteria on this subject. Remember "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?"  Maybe right now, the only thing we have to fear is the virus itself. Not the big, bad liberals trying to take anyone's rights away.


Well, I am a liberal, but liberals give more rights IMO they are not interested in taking any ones rights away.  I too have asked that question and never get an answer, about what rights and freedoms has someone lost.


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## StarSong (Apr 30, 2020)

I have only dealt with government-imposed curfews twice.  Both times they were comforting and appropriate.  

The first came exactly 18 years ago today, immediately after the not-guilty verdict in the trial for the police who beat Rodney King. That curfew was more than welcome as clergy, police, national guard, politicians, and others (including Rodney King himself) tried to settle down our riot-torn city. Leaders certainly didn't need to worry about more areas exploding. 

The second was immediately after the Northridge earthquake, January 1994. Many of our houses were so damaged that we were camping out on our lawns. Thousands - or tens of thousands - of families were extremely vulnerable, so the dusk to dawn curfew in our immediate area was more than welcome. 

Both curfews were short-lived, only lasting until the crises were over. Life returned to normal - or as normal possible given the emotional and physical wreckage that Los Angeles needed to address. 

Both crises were painful, expensive and difficult to endure, but they brought tremendous positive changes to our area.


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## Nate007 (Apr 30, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I did a search for curfews in the U.S. and didn't find any. I did find one mention, dated April 6, saying that the mayor of Boston suggested a curfew between 9 PM and 6 AM.  Suggested, not enforced.  Or are there actually curfews in place?
> 
> Another participant in this discussion was lamenting the loss of his Constitutional rights.  When I asked , "What rights have you lost?"  he replied along the lines of, "Well, not in my state, but others have."
> 
> I think there is an awful lot of latent hysteria on this subject. Remember "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?"  Maybe right now, the only thing we have to fear is the virus itself. Not the big, bad liberals trying to take anyone's rights away.



Canadian here, who has come across some comments from Americans claiming that their rights are being taken away.  This had me worried for my American relatives at first.  In the end it seems we're experiencing the same inconveniences and necessary limitations on both sides of the border. 

The flattening of the curve was predicted to happen earlier, and it's frustrating that we're still waiting for that to happen, but that's due to scientific research not being fully accurate in their predictions (as is often the case, and is to be expected).  Having places not re-open is about being extra careful and not about prolonging the act of removing your freedoms.

edit -- just to clarify.  When I said "your", I'm not referring to Sunny.  I'm referring to the comments I've seen from people who act like their rights are being taken away.


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## asp3 (Apr 30, 2020)

I think there is one other thing we're waiting for while we're social distancing and isolating.  We are waiting for more effective tested treatments for those who are infected with the virus.  Reducing the virus's mortality rates and damaging effects through better treatments will also make it safer to relax measures to restrict it's spread.

For me there are too many things we don't know yet.  The virus seems to have effects beyond the respiratory system that are not completely understood yet.  We also don't know how long resistance to the virus will last in people who've had it.  One thing I also haven't heard discussed is whether or not people who have resistance are able to carry enough virus to be contagious for people they're around.  We also aren't hearing much about the long lasting effects of the virus once one no longer tests positive.


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## Lewkat (Apr 30, 2020)

I learned last night through an extremely reliable but unnamed source that Philadelphia has been issuing electronic death certificates and that regardless of the mode of death, ie; auto accident, that certificate is not to be signed until a corona test issued and results returned.  If the deceased had a positive test even though not symptomatic, the health physician must sign off as death due to COVID-19.  Now this has raised eyebrows to say the very least as it skews the numbers, but it apparently is a manner of raking off more money from the government for the state.  Investigations should be ongoing in each state if this is going on as it is just so wrong.  Also, I just learned from my son that the U.S. federal lockdown expires at midnight tonight which I think will cause many to go forth with legal challenges.  If you know you are at risk, you should stay at home and use your head.  Even though I was at home, I still got the virus.  I live in a Senior Living Facility and a staff member brought it in.  Unfortunately, when all this began, the CDC and various Boards of Health began treating it in a reverse action.  Hind sight is a wonderful teacher, but I was taught many years ago in Nursing School how to approach this at the outset.  Obviously they aren't teaching that these days.  Perhaps they should begin again.


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## StarSong (Apr 30, 2020)

@Lewkat

Federal government had no legal jurisdiction to proclaim a lockdown.  That is a matter of state and local jurisdictions - always has been.  The president eventually acknowledged this.  

As for people killed in auto accidents being potentially counted as COVID-19 deaths, that sounds fairly suspicious. However, if someone died of disease-related causes, and were COVID-19 positive, the presumption can be made that the virus at least contributed to their deaths. Not an unreasonable assumption considering that recent death rates have swelled well beyond typical numbers plus CV-19 reported deaths. Pretty coincidental...


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## treeguy64 (Apr 30, 2020)

No freedoms lost, at all, in my home. I go to work, Janet goes to work. We make good livings. 

We can't go to all places we'd like to go, so maybe, strictly speaking, we've lost a bit of freedom, but, if this viral spread is to be contained, we have to do the logical thing, which is, exactly, social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing, gloves, eye protection. 

No big deal. Those who want to become infected, are free to do so, through their own stupidity, by ignoring those logical precautions that would otherwise protect their dumb butts. 

Just stay the f away from me and my family!


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 30, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I learned last night through an extremely reliable but unnamed source that Philadelphia has been issuing electronic death certificates and that regardless of the mode of death, ie; auto accident, that certificate is not to be signed until a corona test issued and results returned.  If the deceased had a positive test even though not symptomatic, the health physician must sign off as death due to COVID-19.  Now this has raised eyebrows to say the very least as it skews the numbers, but it apparently is a manner of raking off more money from the government for the state.  Investigations should be ongoing in each state if this is going on as it is just so wrong.  Also, I just learned from my son that the U.S. federal lockdown expires at midnight tonight which I think will cause many to go forth with legal challenges.  If you know you are at risk, you should stay at home and use your head.  Even though I was at home, I still got the virus.  I live in a Senior Living Facility and a staff member brought it in.  Unfortunately, when all this began, the CDC and various Boards of Health began treating it in a reverse action.  Hind sight is a wonderful teacher, but I was taught many years ago in Nursing School how to approach this at the outset.  Obviously they teaching that these days.  Perhaps they should begin again.


Hi Lewkat.  Every death certificate that I have seen lists multiple causes and possible contributing factors.  I believe that the Covid-19 dx would be included as part of the tracing/tracking efforts.  In the case of a car accident victim, the post-mortem would likely list something like 'crushed spine, Covid-19,etc.'  Personally, I don't believe it is part of any plot.


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## Lewkat (May 1, 2020)

I don't know what's going on, Em.  Perhaps each state has its own agenda.  My cousin, who is a nurse practioner in Philly and is involved in all this phone me a couple of nights ago and informed me of what's going on down there.  It may be only that Health Department which I understand covers 3 counties.  In New Jersey each County has its own health department.  One hears so much that may or not be happening in this vast nation of ours, it is just best to sit back sometimes and simply watch and wait.


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## Em in Ohio (May 1, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I don't know what's going on, Em.  Perhaps each state has its own agenda.  My cousin, who is a nurse practioner in Philly and is involved in all this phone me a couple of nights ago and informed me of what's going on down there.  It may be only that Health Department which I understand covers 3 counties.  In New Jersey each County has its own health department.  One hears so much that may or not be happening in this vast nation of ours, it is just best to sit back sometimes and simply watch and wait.


Very interesting.  If it is true that some county health departments are only listing Covid-19, I would think some regulation is in order.  Even if Covid-19 is the primary cause, would they not list other factors that resulted from it, like pneumonia, blood clots, etc?  I hope your cousin can pursue this further.  I'm only familiar with deceased relations from Ohio and all were prior to this pandemic.  They listed multiple things on the death certificates, as if providing a summary of all current diagnosis.


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## treeguy64 (May 1, 2020)

grahamg said:


> It is my belief a false dichotomy has been put forward so far as the "elimination" of this pandemic virus infection.
> 
> If lockdown, and social distancing cannot ever rid the world of the virus, or stop it coming back again after levels of deaths and infection rates fall, and the lockdown is relaxed, then all that can be achieved by the unparalleled economic virtual standstill, (or 30%/40% loss in GDP anyway), is a process whereby the world learns to live with the virus, at least until a truly effective vaccine has been found, and then rolled out across the entire world.
> 
> Lockdown does not equal defeating this virus therefore, only ever controlling rates of infection, and therefore arguments as to whether you want to die a terrible death as a result of the virus, or want to see others die in a similar way, are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Deaths will continue, maybe ameliorated somewhat by improved therapies for those infected as more is learnt, but nothing more than that is possible.



There IS an absolute, here, not a false dichotomy. Allow me to explain why your hypothesis is fallacious:

If total social isolation/lockdown was 100% in effect, if EVERYONE wore proper PPE and knew exactly how to use it, EFFECTIVELY, when out and about, the virus would be unable to spread. After (the generally held belief) fourteen days of zero spread, those who had contracted it before all safeguards were put into effect, would have either sickened and, possibly, died, or, hopefully, regained their health and have some (presumed) immunity to reinfection.

The virus, now without any humans to infect, and, hopefully, leaving alone our cats, dogs and wildlife, would dry up and go out of existence. We could come out into the sunshine, throw off our PPE, and joyfully sing,  "Ding-dong, the witch is dead!" (Asymptomatic viral carriers/shedders would need to be identified,  and marginalized, until a cure came along----- Shades of Typhoid Mary!)!

Unfortunately, H. sapiens has shown itself to be an ignorant species when it comes to learning the lessons of history. 100% compliance will not be achievable, worldwide, because most people are, by definition, of average intelligence, and that level of intelligence leaves great room for great stupidity.

So, the folks who shout about their personal freedoms this and that, and insist on getting together, eschewing all PPE and social distancing while doing so, will, most likely, keep cv19 doing its thing, until, and here we agree, an effective vaccine comes along.

What a world, what a world.......


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## Victor (May 1, 2020)

the Illinois governor was accused of being a dictator by Republicans, and perhaps a class action
suit against him for his 1 man rulings.  the New York Times listed the actual percentages and odds of getting infected or death for all 50 states. I figured it out for me. Don't tell anyone that basically it is less than one tenth of one percent (roughly) depending on age and race, unless there are other conditions, and assuming   you are not working with sick people or other dangers. Of course, any and all deaths are sad. I don't mean to minimize them by anymeans.


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## grahamg (May 1, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> There IS an absolute, here, not a false dichotomy. Allow me to explain why your hypothesis is fallacious:
> 
> If total social isolation/lockdown was 100% in effect, if EVERYONE wore proper PPE and knew exactly how to use it, EFFECTIVELY, when out and about, the virus would be unable to spread. After (the generally held belief) fourteen days of zero spread, those who had contracted it before all safeguards were put into effect, would have either sickened and, possibly, died, or, hopefully, regained their health and have some (presumed) immunity to reinfection.
> 
> ...




In order for your arguments to be in any way true, it would have to be possible to 100% possible to shutdown the whole world for two weeks, and a bit extra to be sure.

No one, but no one, would be allowed to leave their homes, or if they do their PPE, and other measures they take whilst outside their homes, would have to be 100% effective too.

You know none of this is anywhere near possible, and it doesn't take into account whether those previously infected with Coronavirus start spreading it again.

The British representative to the WHO takes a different view to yours on whose dichotomy might be false, so until you achieve some kind of similar status I'll have to defer to them .      .


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## treeguy64 (May 1, 2020)

grahamg said:


> In order for your arguments to be in any way true, it would have to be possible to 100% possible to shutdown the whole world for two weeks, and a bit extra to be sure.
> 
> No one, but no one, would be allowed to leave their homes, or if they do their PPE, and other measures they take whilst outside their homes, would have to be 100% effective too.
> 
> ...


As I wrote, there is no false dichotomy, here. There IS, however, the stupidity of our species, in general, which precludes 100% compliance with those guidelines that would, if universally observed, almost certainly end the current run of cv19. 

In essence I am agreeing with what wrote about how none of the above is anywhere near possible, but such are the pig-headed sensibilities of H. sapiens.


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## grahamg (May 2, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> As I wrote, there is no false dichotomy, here. There IS, however, the stupidity of our species, in general, which precludes 100% compliance with those guidelines that would, if universally observed, almost certainly end the current run of cv19.
> 
> In essence I am agreeing with what wrote about how none of the above is anywhere near possible, but such are the pig-headed sensibilities of H. sapiens.



If we agree, for sakes of argument, that H. Sapiens stupidity means the dreadful virus pandemic cannot be eliminated completely from the whole world, and hence no longer to a threat ever again, then all we're left with is trying to manage infection levels, and essentially learn to live with it.

I've worn enough facemasks, and had face fit tests done often enough to realise some of their well known limitations. Remarkably, fitted perfectly to your well shaven face, they can remove 99% of the test particles used during a ten minute exposure, (not sure whether the indicator particles used are as minute as this viral particle, but let's assume they are).

Now I mentioned folks with facial hair defeating the 99% efficiency of the mask over a ten minute test, in laboratory conditions, than there is how long they might remain anywhere near that efficient, or whether the user finds it impossible to wear them as instructed, and work in them during strenuous work let's say, before the irritation of wearing them means they remove the mask, or stop wearing them properly.

If none of this is at all possible to achieve in good conditions for any length of time,bthen I'd argue the stupidity of H. sapiens includes expecting such a system to work.   .


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## treeguy64 (May 2, 2020)

grahamg said:


> If we agree, for sakes of argument, that H. Sapiens stupidity means the dreadful virus pandemic cannot be eliminated completely from the whole world, and hence no longer to a threat ever again, then all we're left with is trying to manage infection levels, and essentially learn to live with it.
> 
> I've worn enough facemasks, and had face fit tests done often enough to realise some of their well known limitations. Remarkably, fitted perfectly to your well shaven face, they can remove 99% of the test particles used during a ten minute exposure, (not sure whether the indicator particles used are as minute as this viral particle, but let's assume they are).
> 
> ...


I was taking issue with your false dichotomy assertion. You don't seem to want to understand that, so I'm dropping out of this silly back and forth repartee.


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## Judycat (May 2, 2020)

My son and fam. want to come by today. He says he's over the whole Fear the Corona Virus thing. I asked him if he will take care of my cats when I get sick. He said, Uh sure. I told him they have to be fed twice a day because some can't eat dry food, and the litter boxes need to be scooped. He said we'll just come by and drop off some flowers while standing 6 ft away. Haha. Thanks Mr. Corona-Virus-is-Fake.


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## katlupe (May 2, 2020)

The city I was born in and used to live in (35 miles away) has a curfew. "Binghamton residents are required to stay home between the hours 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. unless they are travelling to and from work, getting groceries or going to the pharmacy." I don't know about others.


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## grahamg (May 2, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> I was taking issue with your false dichotomy assertion. You don't seem to want to understand that, so I'm dropping out of this silly back and forth repartee.



Well that's fair enough isn't it, we can't all agree can we(?).   .


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## squatting dog (May 3, 2020)




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## oldman (May 3, 2020)

IMO, the First Amendment here in Pennsylvania has been tested by the Governor, but no one has sued over it. I think there is something in the State Constitution that gives the Governor the power to do what he has done, but everyone knows, no authority in this country can override the Constitution of the United States.

I think most citizens here in my state agree that the moves the Governor has made are practical and necessary, so why would we contest it other than to maybe prove a point?

From the start, I was in agreement with shutting everything down, but only for a limited time. Now, we have been in hibernation for a month and the Governor has started to open up some businesses. At some point, we are going to have to open up everything and wait for the vaccine.

There’s an old joke among Engineers that when building something and the Engineer keeps making changes. “At some point, we have to shoot the Engineer and just build the damn thing.” That kind of applies to this virus. “At some point, we have to just open up everything and hope for the best.” IMO


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## StarSong (May 3, 2020)

oldman said:


> There’s an old joke among Engineers that when building something and the Engineer keeps making changes. “At some point, we have to shoot the Engineer and just build the damn thing.” That kind of applies to this virus. “At some point, we have to just open up everything and hope for the best.” IMO


Love the joke, @oldman.  

As for reopening, I agree that very soon things will have to slowly reopen.

We'll all have to see whether state and local authorities will have the wisdom to do this slowly, appropriately and safely. Also whether they'll have the courage to shut down certain areas if/when there's a serious local outbreak, and if their public will follow those shutdowns.  

As a retiree I can afford staying home and while I chafe some at the restrictions, they're far from intolerable. For the foreseeable future, my husband and I will continue to wear masks and gloves in public, mostly hunker down at home, and see what happens over the next few weeks.


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## oldman (May 3, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Love the joke, @oldman.
> 
> As for reopening, I agree that very soon things will have to slowly reopen.
> 
> ...


I read what’s going on in California and right now, I don’t envy you guys at all. I know what it’s been like here in PA with having to stay at home. I get a break each day for 5 hours working at the grocery store. I actually get to talk to other people and even though they are complaining about having to stay home, at least it’s a conversation.

I was just talking to my wife last week that we should fly out to LA and go to the beaches. I would really like to get back out to Huntington Beach and maybe Santa Monica.


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## StarSong (May 3, 2020)

oldman said:


> I read what’s going on in California and right now, I don’t envy you guys at all. I know what it’s been like here in PA with having to stay at home. I get a break each day for 5 hours working at the grocery store. I actually get to talk to other people and even though they are complaining about having to stay home, at least it’s a conversation.
> 
> I was just talking to my wife last week that we should fly out to LA and go to the beaches. I would really like to get back out to Huntington Beach and maybe Santa Monica.


Most here aren't complaining too much.  The weather is lovely, stores are well-stocked, most parks are open (though not playgrounds), people are free to roam about, many are walking their neighborhoods, crime is down, and there is light at the end of the tunnel.  

If the idiots in Huntington and a few other Orange County beaches had come close to following the guidelines, those beaches would have remained open and others likely would have followed immediately. 

Because some folks need to learn the hard way, they spoil it for the rest of us.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 3, 2020)

chic said:


> Initially I was so on board about quarantining which medical experts told us in early March would flatten the curve and we'd all get out by the end of April. Happily we relinquished our freedoms. Day by day the story changed. Well the curve isn't flattening as we expected. Let's close everything non essential. Shelter in place. Just Stay Home! And restrictions will lift in May. By early April, No this isn't enough. We must impose a curfew. And you should wear masks if you must go out for groceries etc. We hope to reopen by June or July. Wearily people surrendered yet more of their few remaining freedoms. By mid April. We're nearing the peak we think the curve is going to flatten, there are fewer new cases. But we're going to double down on restrictions. And then came the cherry on the parfait - you really can't go out again until we have a vaccine and that's two years away.
> 
> Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. We scared you good and it worked. And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.


Since states are starting to reopen, albeit some slowly, I don't think it's a case of we "can't go out again until we have a vaccine".  And anti-vaxers wouldn't even take the vaccine. Bottom line is we've been told so many different things because the epidemiologists really don't know everything there is to know about this virus yet. I just saw news that said we may be dealing with this for two years!!! WHAT??!! 
New York has seen a flattening of the curve, though deaths are still high but have come down to more than half what they were at the peak. So it seems social distancing and self quarantining helped a bit. BTW our freedoms were being taken away (or already oppressed) before this virus hit.


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## PopsnTuff (May 4, 2020)

oldman said:


> I read what’s going on in California and right now, I don’t envy you guys at all. I know what it’s been like here in PA with having to stay at home. I get a break each day for 5 hours working at the grocery store. I actually get to talk to other people and even though they are complaining about having to stay home, at least it’s a conversation.
> 
> I was just talking to my wife last week that we should fly out to LA and go to the beaches. I would really like to get back out to Huntington Beach and maybe Santa Monica.


I lived there years ago @oldman....beautiful weather and surroundings.....are there any airlines up and running nationally?


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## oldman (May 4, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Most here aren't complaining too much.  The weather is lovely, stores are well-stocked, most parks are open (though not playgrounds), people are free to roam about, many are walking their neighborhoods, crime is down, and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> If the idiots in Huntington and a few other Orange County beaches had come close to following the guidelines, those beaches would have remained open and others likely would have followed immediately.
> 
> Because some folks need to learn the hard way, they spoil it for the rest of us.


In your opinion, which beach is the better one from looking at all aspects?

About 10-12 years ago, we went out to California to visit my wife’s sister. One evening, there was nothing planned and we had been hanging around the house all day, so I asked my wife and her sister if they would like to go for a drive. My wife was OK with it but Sis said she wanted to stay put.

We drove out to Huntington Beach, (long drive), and just walked around. It was dusk and had started getting dark, so we decided to head back. As we were walking from the water to the parking lot, I saw some kids that were about 16 or so and they were digging a hole. I had to walk over and check it out. I asked them what’s going on and the one young kid, who, to my surprise, was very polite and respectful, told me that they were digging a shallow hole to put their wood in and build a fire. I told him that I never saw that. He asked me if I was from back East. I told him that I was.

So, I hung around as they built this fire and then opened a cooler, which I expected to see beer, but was instead surprised to see sodas and hot dogs. Yeah, it was a cookout on the beach. They offered my wife and I something to eat and drink, but we passed. I gave the kid ten bucks and told him the hot dogs were on us. At first he was hesitant, but then did take it. It was a fun evening watching the kids have fun.


PopsnTuff said:


> I lived there years ago @oldman....beautiful weather and surroundings.....are there any airlines up and running nationally?


The last that I heard was that Southwest, American, Delta and United were still running nationally, but many flight have been either cancelled or have been lumped in with other flights that have created stops on the way, instead of non stop flights. I spoke with one of the Dispatchers just last week and she was telling me that scheduling has become a nightmare and very irritating for the customer. 

If you have a flight from Dulles in Washington, which was my home airport, and are flying to LAX in Los Angeles and are scheduled to depart at 7:00 a.m., it may be cancelled the day before and you would be re-booked on the next flight at maybe 9:00 a.m. Worse than that is that the rescheduled flight may not be non stop and you may have to stop at Chicago or Kansas City before going on to LA. Yes, it has become a nightmare for some.


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## StarSong (May 5, 2020)

To answer your question @oldman, I've come to prefer Ventura's beaches because they're less crowded.  That said, all Southern California beaches are beautiful.    

I'm not a "put down a blanket" beach goer - haven't been since I was a teenager.  Hubby & I stroll the water's edge in mornings or late afternoons, sometimes for hours, just watching the surf roll in.  

The ocean calms my soul at the deepest level.


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## fmdog44 (May 5, 2020)

The issue of defeating this virus is now political versus healthcare and that spells disaster for all of us.


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## squatting dog (May 5, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> The issue of defeating this virus is now political versus healthcare and that spells disaster for all of us.



You bet. Who's numbers do we believe? Me, I tend to trust the CDC, but... who knows anymore.
 As of May 4, 2020, the CDC reported that 38,576 Americans died from the China coronavirus. Note that their number includes confirmed or presumed to be COVID-19 deaths, Yet another site says 69,079, another says 70,147, still another says 66,400


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## garyt1957 (May 5, 2020)

Victor said:


> the New York Times listed the actual percentages and odds of getting infected or death for all 50 states.  Don't tell anyone that basically it is less than one tenth of one percent (roughly) depending on age and race, unless there are other conditions, and assuming   you are not working with sick people or other dangers.



No offense, but of course the chance of getting infected is low "assuming   you are not working with sick people or other dangers. " If you don't run into any sick people you're not going to get the virus. Who knew?


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## StarSong (May 5, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> You bet. Who's numbers do we believe? Me, I tend to trust the CDC, but... who knows anymore.
> As of May 4, 2020, the CDC reported that 38,576 Americans died from the China coronavirus. Note that their number includes confirmed or presumed to be COVID-19 deaths, Yet another site says 69,079, another says 70,147, still another says 66,400


The CDC states right on their opening page that their death counts are delayed.  It appears that 66K - 70K is the more accurate, up-to-date count.


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## oldman (May 5, 2020)

StarSong said:


> To answer your question @oldman, I've come to prefer Ventura's beaches because they're less crowded.  That said, all Southern California beaches are beautiful.
> 
> I'm not a "put down a blanket" beach goer - haven't been since I was a teenager.  Hubby & I stroll the water's edge in mornings or late afternoons, sometimes for hours, just watching the surf roll in.
> 
> The ocean calms my soul at the deepest level.


You are so right. There is just something about the ocean that does the same to me. When I flew into LAX, I almost always would try to fly out over the ocean then come back in for my landing. Being that low made me feel like I could stick my arm out the window of the cockpit and touch the water. The Pacific is a beautiful shade of blue from above. San Francisco, no. I just wanted to put the plane down on the runway. SF has some really challenging wind currents at times.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 5, 2020)

I read two newsfeed headlines today. One says "New mutation indicates the coronavirus might be weakening study says".  The other says "Scientists say a now-dominant strain of the coronavirus appears to be more contagious than the original." Yesterday there was a similar headline about a more potent mutant strain of the virus. Now instead of worrying about it surfacing again in the fall and winter, an ABC news report said we could be going through this for two years. Is it any wonder there's so much confusion?! Who and what are we to believe?


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## grahamg (May 5, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I read two newsfeed headlines today. One says "New mutation indicates the coronavirus might be weakening study says".  The other says "Scientists says a now-dominant strain of the coronavirus appears to be more contagious than the original." Yesterday there was a similar headline about a more potent mutant strain of the virus. Now instead of worrying about it surfacing again in the fall and winter, an ABC news report said we could be going through this for two years. Is it any wonder there's so much confusion?! Who and what are we to believe?



It is a real problem, this diverse opinion we're all being subjected to, but all I try to do is put whatever faith I can muster in the experts I feel have the bet grasp on the whole situation, and can convey both the complexities, or nuances along with the more straight forward messages we'd like to hear, (a Dr. Montgomery from St. Thomas's hospital in London, where Boris Johnson was treated springs to mind).    .


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## JaniceM (May 5, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I read two newsfeed headlines today. One says "New mutation indicates the coronavirus might be weakening study says".  The other says "Scientists says a now-dominant strain of the coronavirus appears to be more contagious than the original." Yesterday there was a similar headline about a more potent mutant strain of the virus. Now instead of worrying about it surfacing again in the fall and winter, an ABC news report said we could be going through this for two years. Is it any wonder there's so much confusion?! Who and what are we to believe?


It's probably because they don't dare say "We don't know- all we can do is guess"-  which may be the case.


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## Wild1 (May 6, 2020)

grahamg said:


> It is my belief a false dichotomy has been put forward so far as the "elimination" of this pandemic virus infection.
> 
> If lockdown, and social distancing cannot ever rid the world of the virus, or stop it coming back again after levels of deaths and infection rates fall, and the lockdown is relaxed, then all that can be achieved by the unparalleled economic virtual standstill, (or 30%/40% loss in GDP anyway), is a process whereby the world learns to live with the virus, at least until a truly effective vaccine has been found, and then rolled out across the entire world.
> 
> Lockdown does not equal defeating this virus therefore, only ever controlling rates of infection, and therefore arguments as to whether you want to die a terrible death as a result of the virus, or want to see others die in a similar way, are not dealing with the reality of the situation. Deaths will continue, maybe ameliorated somewhat by improved therapies for those infected as more is learnt, but nothing more than that is possible.



eventually we will have a vaccine and/or effective therapies and/or better understand the risk factors more precisely and what can be done to prevent.

Weeks and months can mean huge progress. Scientists are learning so much every day. We will be MUCH more prepared 3 months from now than we are today. In this sense, time heals.


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## grahamg (May 6, 2020)

Wild1 said:


> eventually we will have a vaccine and/or effective therapies and/or better understand the risk factors more precisely and what can be done to prevent.
> 
> Weeks and months can mean huge progress. Scientists are learning so much every day. We will be MUCH more prepared 3 months from now than we are today. In this sense, time heals.



Or, you'll have to concede (even though one can admire you're optimism), "we just might not be in any better position"!   .


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## chic (May 6, 2020)

oldman said:


> IMO, the First Amendment here in Pennsylvania has been tested by the Governor, but no one has sued over it. I think there is something in the State Constitution that gives the Governor the power to do what he has done, but everyone knows, no authority in this country can override the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> I think most citizens here in my state agree that the moves the Governor has made are practical and necessary, so why would we contest it other than to maybe prove a point?
> 
> ...



No he doesn't. Check section 242 of article 18. It is a crime for a person of any color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the constitution of the United States.

They're only getting away with it because very few actually protest or try to stop them in any way. And when protestors do demand their rights they're treated like murderers.

So all of these governors are in fact the ones breaking the law and not those who protest against the restrictions governors have forced upon them.

Of course you're right that at some point we do have to reopen the world and hope for the best.


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## Warrigal (May 6, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I think there is one other thing we're waiting for while we're social distancing and isolating.  We are waiting for more effective tested treatments for those who are infected with the virus.  Reducing the virus's mortality rates and damaging effects through better treatments will also make it safer to relax measures to restrict it's spread.
> 
> For me there are too many things we don't know yet.  The virus seems to have effects beyond the respiratory system that are not completely understood yet.  We also don't know how long resistance to the virus will last in people who've had it.  One thing I also haven't heard discussed is whether or not people who have resistance are able to carry enough virus to be contagious for people they're around.  We also aren't hearing much about the long lasting effects of the virus once one no longer tests positive.


It seems that this virus does affect more than the lungs. It has been observed to cause loss of smell and taste and in some patients, hearing. Whether this loss is permanent is yet to be discovered. However, it does indicate that the nervous system can be compromised. 

Immunity after infection is also an unknown. It may not last very long and using plasma from recovered patients, while it does seem to shorten the time of recovery, is not likely to provide lasting immunity.


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## Ladybj (May 6, 2020)

I don't think the virus is fake but........  I will leave it at that.  Well, I will say I believe the number of deaths are not accurate nor the number of people tested.  The other thing I believe, I will keep to myself.


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## asp3 (May 6, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> It seems that this virus does affect more than the lungs. It has been observed to cause loss of smell and taste and in some patients, hearing. Whether this loss is permanent is yet to be discovered. However, it does indicate that the nervous system can be compromised.



The one woman I read about who reported losing her sense of smell (which is what most of taste is derived from) and taste said that she regained it after some weeks.  I seem to remember it being six weeks but it might have been four or less.


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## asp3 (May 6, 2020)

Ladybj said:


> I don't think the virus is fake but........  I will leave it at that.  Well, I will say I believe the number of deaths are not accurate nor the number of people tested.  The other thing I believe, I will keep to myself.



Do you think that the number of deaths and people tested is being reported as too high or too low?


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## Ladybj (May 6, 2020)

There are numerous people that die from pneumonia every year...


asp3 said:


> Do you think that the number of deaths and people tested is being reported as too high or too low?


Too high.


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## Knight (May 6, 2020)

For Chic
Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. 

You have my rights?


We scared you good and it worked.
How many of the "we" are there?


 And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.
Who are the they that you refer to? 

What Rights have been lost? 

Dealing with an unknown does take doing things no one in the world is used to. Learning from what worked for the black plague is an approach that worked back then. But we know several billion people have been born since then & economys have expanded beyond what it was like then. 

Different times but the need to talk precaution is still warranted.


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## Ladybj (May 6, 2020)

If they came out with a vaccine for C-19, I would not take it..  I don't even take flu shots.  NO THANKS.


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## grahamg (May 7, 2020)

Ladybj said:


> If they came out with a vaccine for C-19, I would not take it..  I don't even take flu shots.  NO THANKS.



I'd probably like to see a few folks taking it before I stepped up to the plate, but think I'd trust a vaccine for this dreadful virus then, (if I need one, and most of those who have maybe been infected never knew it, so could be immune already?).

The "normal flu jab" has been a boon to me, in the two years I've had it, (I'd been offered it many times before and declined it, but one winter when my immune system may have been weakened due to stress, I succumbed to flu like infections repeatedly, hence my change of heart).


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## asp3 (May 7, 2020)

We all have to choose who we trust and who we believe.  I myself choose to trust the majority of medical professionals and scientists regarding the potential expanse and effect of COVID-19 if we relax restrictions now.

I do agree that we need to find ways for people who's jobs have been eliminated due to the restrictions to be able to safely start working again even if it isn't in their old job.

I am one of those people who does not believe the COVID-19 deaths and cases are being over reported.  Some stories I have seen have compared the normal death rates for various areas with the current death rates.  In the instances they highlighted the COVID-19 deaths do not account for all of the increase in deaths leading me to believe that the COVID-19 deaths are actually being under reported.

At least one of the normal death rate causes, auto accidents, have been reduced as a result of the restrictions.  I haven't heard or seen any reports on the reduction in traffic deaths so this is just ignorant speculation on my part, but I'm confident that it will eventually be shown to be true.


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## grahamg (May 7, 2020)

asp3 said:


> We all have to choose who we trust and who we believe.  I myself choose to trust the majority of medical professionals and scientists regarding the potential expanse and effect of COVID-19 if we relax restrictions now.
> 
> I do agree that we need to find ways for people who's jobs have been eliminated due to the restrictions to be able to safely start working again even if it isn't in their old job.
> 
> ...




You seem to consider the hope the virus can be defeated eventually by lockdown is a realistic one, (I hope I'm not misrepresenting your views, and am sorry if I've covered this with you before?)?

My ex. brother in law, who is no fool, seemed to think this was the "only" way to go, (he has serious health issues so would be at greater risk if ther ewas an early let up of restrictions more than others perhaps). 

i dont think the virus can be beaten this way, not now and/or maybe not ever, although I'll be as happy as everyone else if a 100% successful vaccination programme can be rolled out worldwide, before every country goes completely broke.   .


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## asp3 (May 7, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You seem to consider the hope the virus can be defeated eventually by lockdown is a realistic one, (I hope I'm not misrepresenting your views, and am sorry if I've covered this with you before?)?
> 
> My ex. brother in law, who is no fool, seemed to think this was the "only" way to go, (he has serious health issues so would be at greater risk if ther ewas an early let up of restrictions more than others perhaps).
> 
> i dont think the virus can be beaten this way, not now and/or maybe not ever, although I'll be as happy as everyone else if a 100% successful vaccination programme can be rolled out worldwide, before every country goes completely broke.   .



What I think the restrictions accomplish are the following:

Reduces the number of infections so that health facilities and personnel are not overwhelmed
Reduces the number of infections to reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to the virus and reduces their infection rate
Gives us time to find more effective treatments for those who are infected
Gives us time to determine if having been infected once prevents one from being infected again
Gives us time to determine if a person who has been infected and recovered can be "reinfected" enough to be contagious without becoming sick again themselves.
Gives us time to find ways to reduce the restrictions while not significantly increasing the likelihood that more people will be infected.


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## JaniceM (May 7, 2020)

asp3 said:


> What I think the restrictions accomplish are the following:
> 
> Reduces the number of infections so that health facilities and personnel are not overwhelmed
> Reduces the number of infections to reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to the virus and reduces their infection rate
> ...


Agreed on all points.
Also, locally, there's been a decrease in "out there" crime-  not because individuals are cooperating with the rules, but because much has been closed so there are fewer places to go and hang around.  
I can imagine this benefit will stop, though, as the governor is reopening too much, too soon.


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## win231 (May 7, 2020)

I just saw today's "news."
"In the past 24 hours, there have been 23,000 new cases of Coronavirus."
But....today's update:  "Thankfully, we're flattening the curve & seeing less cases.  Our measures are working."


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## grahamg (May 7, 2020)

asp3 said:


> What I think the restrictions accomplish are the following:
> 
> Reduces the number of infections so that health facilities and personnel are not overwhelmed
> Reduces the number of infections to reduce the number of vulnerable people who are exposed to the virus and reduces their infection rate
> ...



If more people ultimately die because of the poverty caused by the lockdown iniated recession/depression, would you look back on the policies being followed with the same level of contentment do you think?

I don't mean to be quite as critical as that sounds, because most people I'd guess would be of the same mind as yourself, btw.


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## asp3 (May 7, 2020)

grahamg said:


> If more people ultimately die because of the poverty caused by the lockdown iniated recession/depression, would you look back on the policies being followed with the same level of contentment do you think?
> 
> I don't mean to be quite as critical as that sounds, because most people I'd guess would be of the same mind as yourself, btw.



I don't find your question at all critical and am enjoying the conversation.

I'm not that concerned about people dying due to poverty in the western world, but I am concerned about how various third world countries will be able to handle the situation.

I'm of the opinion that we have the resources and people to address the poverty issues but it's a matter of whether or not they will be mobilized to for that purpose.   At this point in time I think the potential deaths due to removing restrictions outweighs the possibility of issues due to the restrictions.  However I am open to changing my mind based on what happens as things progress.


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## peppermint (May 7, 2020)

Ladybj said:


> If they came out with a vaccine for C-19, I would not take it..  I don't even take flu shots.  NO THANKS.


We get flu shots every September, for a long time...I had.pneumonia  last summer...It was dreadful....So I'll get my second shot in Sept.
We had vaccine's going back to my school days....I didn't die...What ever the Doctor wants me to have....I will do it....I'm 75 years old....
I'm walking and Talking....The pneumonia was the first time I got sick in a very very long time....We were at a party in the summer....
Everyone was hugging and dancing....So I will be very careful the next time I'm with a crowd....Hey, I'm living longer then my Mom...
God Rest Her Soul.....


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## grahamg (May 7, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I don't find your question at all critical and am enjoying the conversation.
> 
> I'm not that concerned about people dyinOne nen to poverty in the western world, but I am concerned about how various third world countries will be able to handle the situation.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that we have the resources and people to address the poverty issues but it's a matter of whether or not they will be mobilized to for that purpose.   At this point in time I think the potential deaths due to removing restrictions outweighs the possibility of issues due to the restrictions.  However I am open to changing my mind based on what happens as things progress.



I know when you say, quote:"I'm not that concerned about people dying due to poverty in the Western world",  you don't mean you are unable to care how many die obviously, from poverty related issues!

However, let's say the leaders of Western countries take an extremely cautious view of the risks of deaths increasing from Covid 19 when their lockdown rules are relaxed, some saying "two years" to prevent, they think, the pandemic reemerging, then there will be some pretty dire consequences I'd suggest.

One of the dire consequences being families, or at least extended families becoming estranged. People maybe dying from causes other than this virus, never having seen or held their grandchildren or children again, to look at one aspect beyond the wholesale economic devastation. Can you remain fairly sanguine about these things, I know they're only speculation,? 

Across the world already there are changes being made to rules allowing families a bit more freedom, but our UK government, hounded for its handling of this crisis so far, appears willing to force all kinds of damage on us, we may be unable to endure, or recover from in my view.


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## asp3 (May 7, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I know when you say, quote:"I'm not that concerned about people dying due to poverty in the Western world",  you don't mean you are unable to care how many die obviously, from poverty related issues!
> 
> However, let's say the leaders of Western countries take an extremely cautious view of the risks of deaths increasing from Covid 19 when their lockdown rules are relaxed, some saying "two years" to prevent, they think, the pandemic reemerging, then there will be some pretty dire consequences I'd suggest.
> 
> ...



I communicated poorly and I'm not sure how to put forth my thoughts regarding concerns that COVID-19 restrictions will increase poverty which will lead to more poverty related deaths.  At this point I'm willing to risk that to decrease the number of COVID-19 related deaths.  I think the poverty issue is one that can be addressed effectively if we choose to do so.

Regarding your concerns that the restrictions are preventing people who are not dying of COVID-19 from being able to see their families.  I do think that something should be done to address such concerns.

I'm sorry that you are having to deal with the UK government forcing damages on you.  I have many colleagues in the UK who are on a meeting I attend every weekday morning.  I haven't heard such concerns from them but then again they are generally younger and also don't currently have their employment disrupted so that might be the reason they are not having the same concerns that you are.


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## grahamg (May 8, 2020)

asp3 said:


> I'm sorry that you are having to deal with the UK government forcing damages on you.  I have many colleagues in the UK who are on a meeting I attend every weekday morning.  I haven't heard such concerns from them but then again they are generally younger and also don't currently have their employment disrupted so that might be the reason they are not having the same concerns that you are.



I didn't mean to suggest I'm suffering personally and damage caused by our UK government, except inconvenience. It is the damage to the country's economy I'm referring to, or envisaging will not recover well if there is not such a sentimental discourse surrounding this pandemic I feel cannot be defeated in the way they're suggesting, (to people like my vulnerable brother in law, who perhaps thinks it can).       .


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## grahamg (May 8, 2020)

The thread title, including the words,"A false dichotomy..." was given a different twist, by someone using those exact same words on a UK radio station last night.

She said there was a false dichotomy between likely economic damage due to the lockdown, and the number of deaths caused by the virus, (because the deaths themselves would have had an economic impact is her argument, and one others have put forward too).

I'd say, if "deaths" is her criteria in relation to economic damage, she's got to factor in deaths that will result from failing economies, and she isn't obviously, and yet whoever she is may be getting paid to give her views, and "inform the public", as they'd like to have it.

I may be completely wrong about all this, but I see our leaders as having lost their nerve, and over reacted, and are trying to pretend they can minimise risk, with a viral disease that won't go away completely, no matter what they do, (except in the circumstances a 100% effective vaccine is developed and rolled out successfully worldwide in time to save our economies and all the lives at risk).


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## win231 (May 8, 2020)

Ladybj said:


> I don't think the virus is fake but........  I will leave it at that.  Well, I will say I believe the number of deaths are not accurate nor the number of people tested.  The other thing I believe, I will keep to myself.


LOL.  Don't want to risk annoying the robots, eh?


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## ohioboy (May 25, 2021)

chic said:


> No he doesn't. Check section 242 of article 18. It is a crime for a person of any color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the constitution of the United States.



Thats 18 USC 242, and it does not apply to forcing a business to close under the pandemic.


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## MarciKS (May 25, 2021)

chic said:


> Initially I was so on board about quarantining which medical experts told us in early March would flatten the curve and we'd all get out by the end of April. Happily we relinquished our freedoms. Day by day the story changed. Well the curve isn't flattening as we expected. Let's close everything non essential. Shelter in place. Just Stay Home! And restrictions will lift in May. By early April, No this isn't enough. We must impose a curfew. And you should wear masks if you must go out for groceries etc. We hope to reopen by June or July. Wearily people surrendered yet more of their few remaining freedoms. By mid April. We're nearing the peak we think the curve is going to flatten, there are fewer new cases. But we're going to double down on restrictions. And then came the cherry on the parfait - you really can't go out again until we have a vaccine and that's two years away.
> 
> Good luck trying to get your rights back now that we've got 'em. We scared you good and it worked. And the sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place.


_"sad thing is many people no longer even want to go out because they're so buying into this and that was just what they wanted in the first place."_

*first of all...not "buying into" anything here. i don't want to get this virus and die if i can help it. nothing wrong with that at all. i would think that would be perfectly normal behavior. 

can i ask what makes you think they (whoever they are) want us to not want to go out and why?*


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