# What are Your Thoughts on the Chicago Homicide crisis?



## Lon (Jan 2, 2017)

C'mon Quicksilver---this is your neighborhood. What would you suggest?
More Federal Funding?


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## aeron (Jan 2, 2017)

I've only been in Chicago a few times but based on my limited experience I would put it on a par with Rio de Janero and for the same reasons.

Those who have spent any real time in Rio will understand exactly what I mean.


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## Warrigal (Jan 2, 2017)

Donald Trump and the Chicago Mayor have had a talk about this issue.
Trump has suggested (on Twitter) that the Mayor should ask for federal help.
The Mayor has expressed the need for a multifaceted approach.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...weet-chicago-violence-met-20170102-story.html

Perhaps this could be where DJ Trump will make a positive difference?
Will Congress agree to supply some funding or will they simply advise the adoption of "stop and frisk"?


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## aeron (Jan 2, 2017)

Deporting illegals would be a good start.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Jan 2, 2017)

Certain demographics in our major metropolitan areas have generational problems with gang violence.  People have been raised to "exist" by being part of a gang.  We watched a show on Animal Planet last night about African Dogs.  They will run lions away, simply be being in a pack and using strategy to protect or to prey.  It is sad to say we have areas in our Country where people's way of life is being part of a "pack".  They are recruited, trained, learn to rob and kill.  It has become a kill or be killed culture.

How do we break that generational culture of gang violence?  How do we educate entire neighborhoods... large neighborhoods that they should be working at good paying jobs and not worrying about protecting their homes and families from drive-by shootings?  How do we turn gang violence/survival into friendly co-existence?

If the answer were easy, Chicago would no longer keep setting homicide records.  Put large deployments of police on each street corner and you will have an all out war.  Declare curfews and how do you enforce them without infringing on people's rights?  They can't go find employment because it just isn't there.  If there were jobs in their neighborhoods, we would see those jobs pay minimum wage.  

I do not believe tossing money at the issue solves anything unless someone can explain where that money is going and why.  I do not believe simply hiring more police will solve the issue.  Yet, I do not have the answer.  Perhaps someone else does.


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## dpwspringer (Jan 2, 2017)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> Certain demographics in our major metropolitan areas have generational problems with gang violence.  People have been raised to "exist" by being part of a gang.  We watched a show on Animal Planet last night about African Dogs.  They will run lions away, simply be being in a pack and using strategy to protect or to prey.  It is sad to say we have areas in our Country where people's way of life is being part of a "pack".  They are recruited, trained, learn to rob and kill.  It has become a kill or be killed culture.
> 
> How do we break that generational culture of gang violence?  How do we educate entire neighborhoods... large neighborhoods that they should be working at good paying jobs and not worrying about protecting their homes and families from drive-by shootings?  How do we turn gang violence/survival into friendly co-existence?
> 
> ...


It's not politically correct but you need different types of policing for different environments. And people are fooling themselves if they don't believe that when safety becomes an issue that you have to be willing to sacrifice some freedom to get the situation under control.


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## Stormy (Jan 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Donald Trump and the Chicago Mayor have had a talk about this issue.
> Trump has suggested (on Twitter) that the Mayor should ask for federal help.
> The Mayor has expressed the need for a multifaceted approach.
> 
> ...



I read also that Mr. Trump had suggested to the Mayor of Chicago to ask for federal help if needed, I see this as a good thing.  I believe President Trump can make a difference once in office, he can't do any worse than the present administration in regard to the rampant crime in Chicago, I don't put complete blame on the president, but he hasn't done much to remedy the situation.  I hope they do what they have to in Chicago, the street gangs have taken over and the people are mourning their dead as a result.  Maybe the new year will bring some justice to the city thugs in these areas and put them behind bars where they belong. I stay hopeful for 2017 and the future of the cities that have fallen by the wayside


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## Robusta (Jan 2, 2017)

I do not think government has the tools within constitutional limits to cure this problem.

We need a couple  policeman on every block, we need an effective probation system, we need a welfare system, with compulsory education and civic responsibility components, we need living wage jobs, we need never to drop a weapons charge, never plea bargain a weapons charge. We need to hold landlords to strict building codes and put habitual violators out of business. We need merchants to forbid loitering on and around their premises. We need effective and enforceable nuisance property laws.  We need people admit that there is a problem within the fabric of their neighorhoods and to take ownership of it. 

We need to become more socialist,"It takes a village!"


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 2, 2017)

It's not just Chicago, we have kids shooting kids in my city too.  I really don't think throwing money at law enforcement will make a difference.  The increased police budgets will make police more visible in the community and that may create an illusion of safety that has a calming influence on the residents but I don't think it will stop the violence.  I think the only way to stop the violence is to get these kids to value their own lives and give them some kind of hope for a better life, that's a tall order that may take a generation or more to implement.  I would like to see a program that would give kids a path out of the inner city.  A program that would provide some education to complete a GED, vocational training and community service while being paid and building college tuition credits that could be used to continue their education at the end of the program.  I'm not Pollyanna, I don't believe that the truly hard core gang members would participate in a program like this unless a judge mandated it but it might get some kids out of the community before they get sucked under.

I also believe that in some communities, mine included, the public school system should begin offering grades 7-12 a campus environment option where kids can live and work in a controlled environment, sort of like a boarding school.  I truly believe that this type of educational program could help break the cycle of violence and poverty that exists in many urban areas.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 2, 2017)

Lon said:


> C'mon Quicksilver---this is your neighborhood. What would you suggest?
> More Federal Funding?



Why are you asking me?   I've lived in Chicago 68 years... I've never even heard a gunshot.


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## Warrigal (Jan 2, 2017)

Some good ideas in that post, Bea.

Prevention is better than cure and inoculation better than antibiotics.
If we thought of urban violence as a public health issue we might just come up with effective ways to treat it.


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## rt3 (Jan 2, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Some good ideas in that post, Bea.
> 
> Prevention is better than cure and inoculation better than antibiotics.
> If we thought of urban violence as a public health issue we might just come up with effective ways to treat it.




inoculation isn't effective against gram negative organisms.  in other words the cure must be more specific 

allowing non medical problems to be defined as public health issues opens the door for political powers to define cultural issues along arbitrary guidelines usually at the loss of specific freedoms.

wow what a great definition for socialism


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## QuickSilver (Jan 2, 2017)

Ok...  I'll put in my two cents...  There are vast pockets of poverty and joblessness in Chicago... Desperate people do desperate things.. Gangs and gang violence are the result.   BUT more to the point..  Where do you people think the Chicago gangs are getting their guns?  Do you think they are building them in their basements?   NO.. they are making the very short drive across the Illinois/Indiana border to where guns are readily available due to lax or non-existent gun regulations.  Gun shows are all over Northwestern Indiana making it very easy for gangs to get weapons.  They aren't buying the guns in Chicago.. They are making huge straw man purchases without background checks.   If we had more national common sense gun regulation, Chicago gangs may not be able to shoot up their neighborhoods..


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## Warrigal (Jan 2, 2017)

It was just an analogy, rt3.
Not meant to be taken literally.

I still think Aunt Bea made some good points.


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## Manatee (Jan 2, 2017)

Chicago "leaders" need to have the will to deal with it.  Throwing "federal money" at will not effect a cure.


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## RadishRose (Jan 2, 2017)

"Michael Pfleger is pastor of St. Sabina Church on Chicago’s South Side. His congregation started summer weekends by praying for a low body count".

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-crisis-in-chicago-gun-violence/


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## rt3 (Jan 2, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Ok...  I'll put in my two cents...  There are vast pockets of poverty and joblessness in Chicago... Desperate people do desperate things.. Gangs and gang violence are the result.   BUT more to the point..  Where do you people think the Chicago gangs are getting their guns?  Do you think they are building them in their basements?   NO.. they are making the very short drive across the Illinois/Indiana border to where guns are readily available due to lax or non-existent gun regulations.  Gun shows are all over Northwestern Indiana making it very easy for gangs to get weapons.  They aren't buying the guns in Chicago.. They are making huge straw man purchases without background checks.   If we had more national common sense gun regulation, Chicago gangs may not be able to shoot up their neighborhoods..



Indiana has the same gun regulations as every state. Why aren't the adjacent states suffering the same mania? Gun shows always run FBI background checks through the NCBI its part of the liability package for them to rent the stadiums and expos for the shows. Chicago has the tightest gun control laws in the country yet is the murder capital of the US. If we had more national common sense gun regulation the Chicago gun laws would be kicked out the courts, and universal carry would become law of the land.
Now that a new supreme court will be soon, and the hundreds of bench judges that will come under this, look for this to happen. Already in 35 states. Suck it up buttercup.


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## Don M. (Jan 2, 2017)

Chicago, and many major urban areas, is seeing the results of primarily two issues.  First, there is the total breakdown of the urban family...even Obama cited this as a primary reason for the increase in crime and violence in the inner city, during his first Presidential campaign.  Second, this "Black Lives Matter" campaign...resulting from the actions of a small handful of the police, has resulted in many policeman going into "Stand Down" mode...for fear that they will be singled out if they do anything remotely excessive during a arrest or confrontation with a criminal.  Political Correctness has created an environment where the thugs know that they can run amok, and probably get away with it.  Anarchy is becoming the norm in some of our inner cities, and a policy of "No Snitching" among the responsible people in those areas insures that no one will come forward to assist the police in an investigation.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 3, 2017)

rt3 said:


> Indiana has the same gun regulations as every state. Why aren't the adjacent states suffering the same mania? Gun shows always run FBI background checks through the NCBI its part of the liability package for them to rent the stadiums and expos for the shows. Chicago has the tightest gun control laws in the country yet is the murder capital of the US. If we had more national common sense gun regulation the Chicago gun laws would be kicked out the courts, and universal carry would become law of the land.
> Now that a new supreme court will be soon, and the hundreds of bench judges that will come under this, look for this to happen. Already in 35 states. Suck it up buttercup.



Yes... Chicago has tight gun laws.... The gangs do not buy guns in Chicago... They buy them in Indiana... and you have given the typical NRA shill answer..  let's have EVERYONE packing heat.

  Oh... and stop the "buttercup" shit..  did you read Matrix's sticky at the top of this forum...  You are being condescending and rude.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 3, 2017)

A lot of programs and the spending of a lot of money since LBJ's War on Poverty have failed to reduce the intractable problems of the inner cities.  After years of effort it was labeled vertical barbarism by one observer, rather apt...


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## aeron (Jan 3, 2017)

Water finds its own level.


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## oldman (Jan 3, 2017)

In early December, one of the up and coming boxers from Chicago, Ed "Bad Boy" Brown was shot and killed and his girlfriend was also shot, but survived. This kid has the usual hard luck story of being involved in drugs and gangs, but moved past that and tried to instead, make something of himself. His record of 20-0 with 16 KO's made him a serious contender for the welterweight championship, but now, we will never know. 

I don't think there is any easy answer. These kids have turf wars all the time. LA is another city with the same thing going on. Kids are killing each other at a rampant pace. Some think education will cure this, but most of these kids have no desire to walk into a classroom. Selling drugs puts a lot of money in their pockets in a short time, so they don't see any need to go to school. What they can't see is the consequences of their actions. 

Obviously, Chicago is a city out of control with gun violence. There were over 700 people shot and killed in Chicago in 2016 and 4 so far in 2017. http://heyjackass.com/


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## QuickSilver (Jan 3, 2017)

oldman said:


> In early December, one of the up and coming boxers from Chicago, Ed "Bad Boy" Brown was shot and killed and his girlfriend was also shot, but survived. This kid has the usual hard luck story of being involved in drugs and gangs, but moved past that and tried to instead, make something of himself. His record of 20-0 with 16 KO's made him a serious contender for the welterweight championship, but now, we will never know.
> 
> I don't think there is any easy answer. These kids have turf wars all the time. LA is another city with the same thing going on. Kids are killing each other at a rampant pace. Some think education will cure this, but most of these kids have no desire to walk into a classroom. Selling drugs puts a lot of money in their pockets in a short time, so they don't see any need to go to school. What they can't see is the consequences of their actions.
> 
> Obviously, Chicago is a city out of control with gun violence. There were over 700 people shot and killed in Chicago in 2016 and 4 so far in 2017. http://heyjackass.com/



Absolutely, and stricter National gun laws would prevent some of the guns on the streets.  There also needs to be jobs in the inner city.  You cannot expect people to work, but have no living wage jobs available.. at least that they can get to on public transportation.    

I also agree that the breakdown of the family structure is a big part..  That will only improve with education.. and JOBS... You simply cannot legislate "responsible parenting".   You cannot pass any law that is going to make fathers participate in their children's lives.. or even pay for their support.   Oh sure, you can make child support mandatory..  it already is.  But you can't go much beyond that.  Put them in jail?   How do they pay child support then?


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## IKE (Jan 3, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh... and stop the "buttercup" shit..



Yeah what she said......I myself much prefer being called Cupcake or Peaches.


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## Ray (Jan 3, 2017)

The sad part of the "feel good" solutions is that they miss the obvious perps and therefore are wasted. It is like the reference to the "war on poverty" - after a half century of failure, the answer is "spend more".
"Guns" - I hate to throw out a bumper sticker but "Guns don't kill; people do" is a truth.
"JOBS" - great!!! Place good jobs in an area with unqualified people.
"Better education" - great!! Spend more money providing better education to those with no interest in education. The Tampa Bay Times did some "investigative reporting" a while back and ran a series on the racism of one local school District. It seems the number of students disciplined for disruptive behavior was out of proportion to their racial proportion of the student population. The answer - new regs requiring punishment by proportion. See an educational problem in that??
"Store owners telling the gangsters to get outa here" - would you like to cross the hoodlums?

And so on and so on. All the efforts to find the fix outside of the actual "doers" is bound to fail. Looking for a fix where it must be found tends to make some feel very uncomfortable and they oppose them by calling proposers "racists", "uncaring", etc. etc.

The answers lie where many do not want to go, such as support for the efforts of the police and having the will to tell the protester "Oh, shut up". Often the family situation is mentioned - how about a form of non-permanent sterilization for a woman on welfare who has another child? Education - how about earned better schooling via vouchers or assignment based on merit?


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## QuickSilver (Jan 3, 2017)

Ray said:


> The sad part of the "feel good" solutions is that they miss the obvious perps and therefore are wasted. It is like the reference to the "war on poverty" - after a half century of failure, the answer is "spend more".
> "Guns" - I hate to throw out a bumper sticker but "Guns don't kill; people do" is a truth.
> "JOBS" - great!!! Place good jobs in an area with unqualified people.
> "Better education" - great!! Spend more money providing better education to those with no interest in education. The Tampa Bay Times did some "investigative reporting" a while back and ran a series on the racism of one local school District. It seems the number of students disciplined for disruptive behavior was out of proportion to their racial proportion of the student population. The answer - new regs requiring punishment by proportion. See an educational problem in that??
> ...



Ah yes....  Let's just grab people off the street and sterilize them..   Are you forgetting this isn't Nazi Germany?    AND lets consign the poorest most difficult students to public schools and give all the money to private schools for the  whitest..... ummmm  I mean more deserving students.   typical Right Wing drivel.


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## rt3 (Jan 3, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Ah yes....  Let's just grab people off the street and sterilize them..   Are you forgetting this isn't Nazi Germany?    AND lets consign the poorest most difficult students to public schools and give all the money to private schools for the  whitest..... ummmm  I mean more deserving students.   typical Right Wing drivel.




Rant is spelled rant


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## WhatInThe (Jan 3, 2017)

A lot of these killings seem to be about territory, 'respect', revenge etc. Might not be one big gang war but that's what seems to be going on. 

Still have to wonder about the mentality of these cold brazen killers that not only have a short temper but have no compunction about killing innocents as well. Yes there economic issues at play but it still takes individuals to illegally obtain guns or illegally deal in banned substances along with frequently stalking their pray.


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## rt3 (Jan 3, 2017)

just curious from another topic. Just curious, when Obama retires to Chicago, is going to build on the "activity" side or a gated community?

Hmmm with 762 murders out of 4300 shootings 

Boy, Trumpkins sure bitch slapped Emmanuel.


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## Ray (Jan 3, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Ah yes....  Let's just grab people off the street and sterilize them..   Are you forgetting this isn't Nazi Germany?    AND lets consign the poorest most difficult students to public schools and give all the money to private schools for the  whitest..... ummmm  I mean more deserving students.   typical Right Wing drivel.



QS - your choice, either show where I said, "grab people off the streets and sterilize them" or apologize for your highly offensive "Nazi Germany" comment.

And then there is the offensive, "private schools for the whitest". Please point out where I said that or post an apology.

Now, would you care to offer your opinion on what I actually posted???


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## Ray (Jan 3, 2017)

WhatInThe said:


> A lot of these killings seem to be about territory, 'respect', revenge etc. Might not be one big gang war but that's what seems to be going on.
> 
> Still have to wonder about the mentality of these cold brazen killers that not only have a short temper but have no compunction about killing innocents as well. Yes there economic issues at play but it still takes individuals to illegally obtain guns or illegally deal in banned substances along with frequently stalking their pray.


It has to do with the snowflake phenomenon that has infected a generation (or more). People are so used to getting their way and being told they are entitled to do so, they simply cannot deal with disappointment.

Add the "victimology" aspect in the black community and you have a lethal blend.


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## Knight (Jan 3, 2017)

Poverty, lack of jobs, no hope seems to be the common theme of why gangs and violence are the norm in large cities, Chicago standing out as being the epicenter.
According to the media America has rebounded with jobs and prosperity & unemployment at 4.7%.  So as a theme poverty, lack of jobs, no hope doesn't seem possible does it? Not PC to discuss but a sense of belonging to a family is a reason given for being in a gang. Ethnic turf another. The cause of those two stem from ? Can't post my opinion on that since being labeled a racist would be the automatic response.
More police? Sounds good an increase in property and sales taxes for the citizens living in Illinois and in particular Chicago should help pay for additional police. Surely those living there wouldn't expect federal tax dollars to bail them out of the predicament of past liberal wage and benefit packages would they? That almost has a socialist ring to it expecting government to step in with money taken from others.

Huge national debt, a projected increase in the defict, robotics replacing human labor, lower paying service jobs, health care @1/6th of the economy still rising are problems that aren't going to go away. Good possibility that problems will increase.


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## Don M. (Jan 3, 2017)

Individual responsibility, and the desire to become a productive member of society, seems to be increasingly lacking in large segments of our population.  Instead, these traits are increasingly being replaced by an "entitlement" mentality which teaches that people are "owed" a decent life.  As a result, when individual effort and responsibility are lacking, it is now "society's" fault....in the minds of some.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 3, 2017)

Don M. said:


> Individual responsibility, and the desire to become a productive member of society, seems to be increasingly lacking in large segments of our population.  Instead, these traits are increasingly being replaced by an "entitlement" mentality which teaches that people are "owed" a decent life.  As a result, when individual effort and responsibility are lacking, it is now "society's" fault....in the minds of some.



No.. but it becomes "Society's problem"  when people turn to crime due to lack of education and opportunity.


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## aeron (Jan 3, 2017)

So make some or all of the cost of imprisonment fall on the criminal.  It could be done by taxation or by garneshing of future wages or by confiscation of property.


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## tnthomas (Jan 3, 2017)

Poor, uneducated people minus job opportunities + drugs & alcohol = a population with substandard parenting /life skills....producing children with no hope or sense of family, except that which street gangs offer.

The cycle continues, neverending.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 3, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> Poor, uneducated people minus job opportunities + drugs & alcohol = a population with substandard parenting /life skills....producing children with no hope or sense of family, except that which street gangs offer.
> 
> The cycle continues, neverending.



My point exactly.   The cycle must be broken... and not by throwing more people in prison.


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## silla (Jan 3, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Ah yes....  Let's just grab people off the street and sterilize them..   Are you forgetting this isn't Nazi Germany?    AND lets consign the poorest most difficult students to public schools and give all the money to private schools for the  whitest..... ummmm  I mean more deserving students.   typical Right Wing drivel.


 If women are not going to police themselves responsibly about getting pregnant and birthing babies, then it is high time for society and the gov to do it. 

*The act of rampant, reckless, unrestrained, base breeding (and failed parenting) is THE #1 foundational cause of many of the worst problems in this nation. *


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## silla (Jan 3, 2017)

Lon said:


> C'mon Quicksilver---this is your neighborhood. What would you suggest?
> More Federal Funding?


 Imo, Chicago can deal with its own problems, without monies from taxpayers in other states, because every state in this country has problems, most of which are not being addressed and resolved. Maybe I'm pro-isolationist but my tax dollars should help fund resolutions for the issues that exist in the state in which I live and have $upported for decades . . . and residents of other states can advocate for their own, too. 

The problem in Chicago, as in every such situation coast to coast, starts with reckless breeding and a failure to properly parent. Time to start restricting breeding (because certain humans are selfish and irresponsible) or at best, STOP funding the breeders and career welfarists.


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## BlunderWoman (Jan 3, 2017)

silla said:


> If *women* are not going to police themselves responsibly about getting pregnant and birthing babies, then it is high time for society and the gov to do it.
> 
> *The act of rampant, reckless, unrestrained, base breeding (and failed parenting) is THE #1 foundational cause of many of the worst problems in this nation. *



Hold on there just a minute there. Besides the idea of government dictated birth control being a bad idea .... why oh why did you ONLY mention WOMEN? Do you think these women reproduce by themselves like snails? I do tire of the double standard and dream of it's death someday. I doubt I'll live to see it. Where is the male culpability ?
I have watched television shows where the men have over THIRTY children ( that they know of) and have not been held accountable. Calling women 'breeders' is disgusting and why did you say nothing of the men and call them some nasty derogatory name as well?


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## silla (Jan 3, 2017)

BlunderWoman said:


> Hold on there just a minute there. Besides the idea of government dictated birth control being a bad idea .... why oh why did you ONLY mention WOMEN? Do you think these women reproduce by themselves like snails? I do tire of the double standard and dream of it's death someday. I doubt I'll live to see it. Where is the male culpability ?


 As a "late in life feminist" I advocate that women MUST be in control of THEIR bodies, minds, choices, etc. Yes, males play a role in reproduction - but (in a consensual situation) they cannot do a darn thing unless a woman invites or allows them to do so. Therefore, getting pregnant, not getting pregnant is absolutely the responsibility of the female. Her body, her hormones, nine months of her life, etc. etc. etc. - HER responsibility.


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## BlunderWoman (Jan 3, 2017)

silla said:


> As a "late in life feminist" I advocate that women MUST be in control of THEIR bodies, minds, choices, etc. Yes, males play a role in reproduction - but (in a consensual situation) they cannot do a darn thing unless a woman invites or allows them to do so. Therefore, getting pregnant, not getting pregnant is absolutely the responsibility of the female. Her body, her hormones, nine months of her life, etc. etc. etc. - HER responsibility.



I beg to differ. I taught my son to bear responsibility. To ask and make sure the woman was on birth control. To wear condoms, etc. The woman may get left holding the bag, but it is the responsibility of both people involved to use preventative methods. 
I have a daughter who got pregnant while married, on birth control AND with husband wearing a condom which he busted through. She did not want to get pregnant because she was considering a divorce, but it did happen in spite of her and his efforts.


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## silla (Jan 3, 2017)

BlunderWoman said:


> Hold on there just a minute there. Besides the idea of government dictated birth control being a bad idea .... why oh why did you ONLY mention WOMEN? Do you think these women reproduce by themselves like snails? I do tire of the double standard and dream of it's death someday. I doubt I'll live to see it. Where is the male culpability ?
> I have watched television shows where the men have over THIRTY children ( that they know of) and have not been held accountable. Calling women 'breeders' is disgusting and why did you say nothing of the men and call them some nasty derogatory name as well?



I have already replied to your post but notice that you edited and added something else, so ok, I'll reply once again: 

Men are basically disgusting in this sense because they are hard-wired for sex, sex, sex - but that is NO excuse for anyone giving them carte blanche to do whatever they want, anytime they want, though unfortunately many women do just that with their pathetic justification of "men will be men". That said, since their hard-wiring is not going to change, it is absolutely up to females to be 100% responsible when it comes to sex and breeding. 

Women should not be allowed to do whatever they want, any more than males should - but it is the female who gets pregnant and carries a child for nine months and deals with resultant hormonal changes. She also usually becomes the sole caregiver - so while I abhor the behaviors of sex-crazed males and would advocate sterilization of all of them, I intellectually and sensibly know that the PRIMARY responsibility regarding sex and breeding lies with the females. 

If you don't understand that and disagree, that's your right - but it is disgraceful for women to make excuses for the reckless and irresponsible behaviors of other women. 

I take pride in my gender and my gender-related choices and I expect no less from other females. But sadly, females are evolving into behaviors and mindsets that are increasingly selfish and irresponsible.


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## silla (Jan 3, 2017)

BlunderWoman said:


> I beg to differ. I taught my son to bear responsibility. To ask and make sure the woman was on birth control. To wear condoms, etc. The woman may get left holding the bag, but it is the responsibility of both people involved to use preventative methods.
> I have a daughter who got pregnant while married, on birth control AND with husband wearing a condom which he busted through. She did not want to get pregnant because she was considering a divorce, but it did happen in spite of her and his efforts.


 Curious, did it ever occur to you to teach your son abstinence? If parents really want their sons to be respectful and decent and honorable males, then one of the most basic things they should be taught is that sex does NOT equate to love and that they should never rush into it at young ages; instead, parents think they're doing a great job if they tell their sons to wear a condom or ask a girl if she's on the pill.   

Sorry but honestly, I cannot believe that if birth control pills were taken faithfully AND a condom was worn properly, that a pregnancy would occur.

*To the OP - sorry we have derailed your thread. I was just posting that the #1 cause of so many problems, including crime rates like that in Chicago, are due to unrestrained breeding and failed parenting. *

This is all I will post on this subject here. Should anyone wish to start a thread about this topic, feel free.


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## BlunderWoman (Jan 3, 2017)

silla said:


> I have already replied to your post but notice that you edited and added something else, so ok, I'll reply once again:
> 
> Men are basically disgusting - they are hard-wired for sex, sex, sex - but that is NO excuse for anyone giving them carte blanche to do whatever they want, anytime they want, though unfortunately many women do just that with their pathetic justification of "men will be men". That said, since their hard-wiring is not going to change, it is absolutely up to females to be 100% responsible when it comes to sex and breeding.
> 
> ...


Wow. I think I have a better opinion of men then that. They are not all a bunch a mindless animals that cannot control their ****** urges. I did not make excuses for the irresponsible  behavior of women- what I did say was that they are not the only ones to be held accountable for creating a baby together. Many women in their late 30's and early 40's have a huge sex drive as well. Men are not the only creatures with a sex drive. There are many many men who do not behave irresponsibly about sex and making babies. I taught my on to always picture whoever he wanted to sleep with as being the mother of his child because that's how babies are made. It takes two to tango. Did you know there are even some men with very little sex drive at all? They should not all be simply thrown into one lump of drooling insatiable animals.


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## BlunderWoman (Jan 3, 2017)

silla said:


> Curious, did it ever occur to you to teach your son abstinence? If parents really want their sons to be respectful and decent and honorable males, then one of the most basic things they should be taught is that sex does NOT equate to love and that they should never rush into it at young ages; instead, parents think they're doing a great job if they tell their sons to wear a condom or ask a girl if she's on the pill.
> 
> Sorry but honestly, I cannot believe that if birth control pills were taken faithfully AND a condom was worn properly, that a pregnancy would occur.
> 
> The the OP - sorry we have derailed your thread. This is all I will post on this subject here. Should anyone wish to start a thread about this topic, feel free.



No , ask Sarah Palin how her abstinence lectures worked out for her daughter. NOPE I never taught them abstinence. In spite of that I raised 4 daughters and one son. 3 daughters didn't marry until over 20 and all three were virgins when they married & I'm not even religious. The 4th daughter got a boyfriend at 20 and is still living with him and still going to college. My son never used abstinence but did not get anyone pregnant until last year he got his wife pregnant and he is 30 years old, so I don't think I brought up a herd of irresponsible people. 

As to your comment:
 "S_orry but honestly, I cannot believe that if birth control pills were taken faithfully AND a condom was worn properly, that a pregnancy would occur_." 

Maybe you should get a little more education about that. Condoms bust sometimes & the pill doesn't always work.


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

There are a ..... group .... of women who see being a baby factory a career choice.  There are also a set of women who are equally sex adicted as any men.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 4, 2017)

aeron said:


> There are a ..... group .... of women who see being a baby factory a career choice.  There are also a set of women who are equally sex adicted as any men.



So let me understand...  The Conservative position is pro-life.. and not only anti-abortion, but in most cases anti-birth control.   Part of the objection to the ACA  (Obamacare) is the fact that it mandates that birth control be covered in all the policies.   There is a constant drumbeat to defund Planned Parenthood, which provides not JUST abortions, but birth control primarily to low income women..  YET.. you advocate mandatory sterilization for "a certain group" of women..     Let's be clear here..  what "group of women" are you primarily talking about?   Would that be BLACK women?  Is that the group you would not mind being forcibly sterilized?   Of course.. it doesn't matter that the majority of welfare recipients are in this country are White..  but when talking about Chicago gang crime... you are discussing BLACK  people...   Is a little bit of racism infecting your thinking?


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> So let me understand...  The Conservative position is pro-life.. and not only anti-abortion, but in most cases anti-birth control.   Part of the objection to the ACA  (Obamacare) is the fact that it mandates that birth control be covered in all the policies.   There is a constant drumbeat to defund Planned Parenthood, which provides not JUST abortions, but birth control primarily to low income women..  YET.. you advocate mandatory sterilization for "a certain group" of women..     Let's be clear here..  what "group of women" are you primarily talking about?   Would that be BLACK women?  Is that the group you would not mind being forcibly sterilized?   Of course.. it doesn't matter that the majority of welfare recipients are in this country are White..  but when talking about Chicago gang crime... you are discussing BLACK  people...   Is a little bit of racism infecting your thinking?



So let me make it clearer.  I couldn't care much less about the stance that people take based on their political or religious beliefs where elective termination of pregnancy is concerned, it is when all is said and  done nothing other than a form of birth control.

Nor could I care about the views that people have regarding pre coital birth control by hormonal means, mechanical means, use of the "time of the month" or adopting the astronaut practice.  Nor the post coital pill either.  The ONLY person with the absolute right to decide is the woman.  No one else has one iota of a right to interfere one way or another.

No one.

Ever.

As for racism, I am at a loss as to how that came into this.  It is a fact that there is a group of women who see a career out of churning out kids.  

It is just as much a fact that there are as many woman permanently "on heat" as there are men.

What is also well worth keeping in mind that forced and or coerced sterilisation was taking place in the US even during the closing stages of the 20th century.


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## oldman (Jan 4, 2017)

I don't disagree that stricter gun laws would cut down on some of the shootings and killings, but give me an example of a gun law that would not interfere with the 2nd amendment. The "breakdown of the family structure", as you have mentioned is also a good example of what's wrong in America, not just Chicago. But, how do you make dad's accountable by staying home and raising their family? Some point to education. Here in the city where I live is the largest high school in the county. The school is predominantly black because it is located in center city, which is also predominantly black. The drop out rate is just over 50%. When *anyone* enters the building, they must walk through a metal detector. Visitors from outside must be escorted by an armed security guard hired that is paid for by the school. Go to a basketball or football game and it looks like a cop's convention is going on. There is a lot of police presence inside and outside. The district has trouble hiring teachers because of the violence that goes inside the school. 

Like I wrote earlier, I don't think any one thing will answer Chicago's problems. It is a city out of control. Gangbangers have to be brought under control. Coming up with a solution to that problem would be a good start. I have watched the movie "Boyz n the Hood" a number of times and although it is a movie out of Hollywood there are some real life events in that movie. It really bothers me to see young boys and girls being shot down over turf wars and drug issues. There has to be an answer to this problem. To just keep having meetings about it and never doing anything will not solve the problems. 

I don't have an answer, It's easy for me to sit and say that Chicago should do this and/or that, but what do I know? I have never lived a life like poor, uneducated blacks, Latinos or whites have lived. I was lucky enough to come from a great home with a very good support system in place and two parents that cared about their kids. I have no idea what the rest of the kids in the world are going through. Probably, if I was a young, white, black or Latino kid from a single parent home, I can see myself being just like they are. If it's easier for me to sell drugs and line my pockets with cash, then I very well may go down that road. It also seems to me that drugs, guns and violence all go together. 

There is a mentality among many young people that if you live in a certain area of the city then you best not come into my area of the city or I will shoot you. I must protect my turf from outsiders. Is that crazy or what?


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

oldman said:


> I don't disagree that stricter gun laws would cut down on some of the shootings and killings, but give me an example of a gun law that would not interfere with the 2nd amendment. The "breakdown of the family structure", as you have mentioned is also a good example of what's wrong in America, not just Chicago. But, how do you make dad's accountable by staying home and raising their family? Some point to education. Here in the city where I live is the largest high school in the county. The school is predominantly black because it is located in center city, which is also predominantly black. The drop out rate is just over 50%. When *anyone* enters the building, they must walk through a metal detector. Visitors from outside must be escorted by an armed security guard hired that is paid for by the school. Go to a basketball or football game and it looks like a cop's convention is going on. There is a lot of police presence inside and outside. The district has trouble hiring teachers because of the violence that goes inside the school.
> 
> Like I wrote earlier, I don't think any one thing will answer Chicago's problems. It is a city out of control. Gangbangers have to be brought under control. Coming up with a solution to that problem would be a good start. I have watched the movie "Boyz n the Hood" a number of times and although it is a movie out of Hollywood there are some real life events in that movie. It really bothers me to see young boys and girls being shot down over turf wars and drug issues. There has to be an answer to this problem. To just keep having meetings about it and never doing anything will not solve the problems.
> 
> ...


Tribalism vs. civilised society.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 4, 2017)

aeron said:


> Tribalism vs. civilised society.



Yet the rebublican candidate and president*  elect ran on a platform of  "Tribalism"....  Aren't you misunderstanding the word a bit?   It actually has NOTHING to do with African TRIBES...  But a is a form of civilized society.  A word you may better understand is "Nationalism" 


*



			Tribalism
		
Click to expand...

*


> is the state of being organized in or an advocate for a tribe or tribes. In terms of conformity, tribalism may also refer in popular cultural terms to a way of thinking or behaving in which people are loyal to their own tribe or social group.[SUP][1][/SUP]
> Tribalism has been defined in as a 'way of being' based upon variable combinations of kinship-based organization, reciprocal exchange, manual production, oral communication and analogical enquiry.[SUP][2][/SUP] Ontologically, tribalism is oriented around the valences of analogy, genealogy and mythology. That means that customary tribes have their social foundations in some variation of these tribal orientations while often taking on traditional practices (including through religions of the book such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), and modern practices, including monetary exchange, mobile communications, and modern education.


[SUP]

From wiki.

[/SUP]


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Yet the rebublican candidate and president*  elect ran on a platform of  "Tribalism"....  Aren't you misunderstanding the word a bit?   It actually has NOTHING to do with African TRIBES...  But a is a form of civilized society.  A word you may better understand is "Nationalism"
> 
> 
> [SUP]
> ...


Why are you apparently trying to find racial connotations in what I write?

I am well aware of the meaning of the word tribalism and how it can overwhelm civilised society.

Probably the best example took place during "The Troubles" in the British province of Northern Ireland, one of the two separate countries on the island of Ireland, the other being Eire.

What took place was presented as a religious conflict but was in fact a tribal conflict within the British province funded to a considerable extent by Americans providing the cash and arms to terrorists who were attacking British people on British soil.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 4, 2017)

Because whenever Republicans start bashing Chicago... they are doing one of two things..  They are inferring the inferiority of Blacks... OR they are insinuating that Democrats cannot govern a city or handle it's problems...and in doing so take a swipe at President Obama by proxy.  Sometimes it actually is BOTH.      Then they offer Draconian Republican solutions which would be absolutely impossible to implement.  So yes..  which one are you guilty of?


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> Because whenever Republicans start bashing Chicago... they are doing one of two things..  They are inferring the inferiority of Blacks... OR they are insinuating that Democrats cannot govern a city or handle it's problems...and in doing so take a swipe at President Obama by proxy.  Sometimes it actually is BOTH.      Then they offer Draconian Republican solutions which would be absolutely impossible to implement.  So yes..  which one are you guilty of?



Neither.  I'm not "Republican" but based on what i have watched happen over a number of years plus in occasional chats with some ex workmates I do believe that the management of Chicago has been lamentable and as for Obama, I don't need to take a swipe at him by proxy, I am more than willing to criticize his presidency directly because of his dreadful foreign policy and the way that he fudged the US economy by printing scrip and his refusal to protect the US from invasion and that's just to start with.

Draconian solutions to the emergence of the criminal sector?  I honestly believe that in the near future the US will disintegrate just as the USSR has.  The social fracture lines are just too deep now.

As to which "one" I am guilty of?  That infers that I am "guilty" of either of the things that you level at me, a bit like "have you stopped beating your wife" (to which I answer "no"!).  In fact because I fall into neither of the camps you offer the answer is of course neither!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 4, 2017)

So It's actually the second choice you are guilty of..



> Neither.  I'm not "Republican" but based on what i have watched happen oiver a number of years plus in occasional chats with some ex workmates I do believe that the management of Chicago has been lamentable and as for Obama, I don't need to take a swipe at him by proxy, I am more than willing to criticise his presidency directly because of his dreadful foireign policy and the way that he fudged the US economy by printing scrip and his refusal to protect the US from invasion and that's just to start with.


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## aeron (Jan 4, 2017)

QuickSilver said:


> So It's actually the second choice you are guilty of..


 I'm not guilty of " taking a swipe at Obama by proxy" In fact I'm not guilty of anything.  To criticise someone based on what they have done that absolutely justifies criticism is an entirely reasonable thing to do.  Especially when amongst the disgraceful things is making false accusations against what SHOULD have been a strong ally against a common enemy, who has supported the terrorism being waged against the legitimate government of Syria, who right from early in his time in office behaved appallingly towards on head of state (Queen Elizabeth) yet groveled before the head of Saudi Arabia, and so much more besides.

Taking a swipe implies criticism indirectly.

There is nothing remotely indirect where my condemnation of Obama is concerned.


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