# How to Compare COVID Deaths for Vaccinated and Unvaccinated People



## Alligatorob (Jun 30, 2022)

I know this is a controversial topic, but my unvaccinated (and over 65) brother just tested positive for Covid so I have been doing some research.  I came across this recent Scientific American article.   

It says what we have long known, and now even more data is available.  People who are vaccinated are less likely to die when they contract Covid than the unvaccinated.  

Fortunately the death rates are low, only about 0.01% even for unvaccinated over 65.  Still that is about 10 times higher than vaccinated.  This article does not say so, but I believe that also translates to being less sick.


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## Medusa (Jun 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I know this is a controversial topic, but my unvaccinated (and over 65) brother just tested positive for Covid so I have been doing some research.  I came across this recent Scientific American article.
> 
> It says what we have long known, and now even more data is available.  People who are vaccinated are less likely to die when they contract Covid than the unvaccinated.
> 
> Fortunately the death rates are low, only about 0.01% even for unvaccinated over 65.  Still that is about 10 times higher than vaccinated.  This article does not say so, but I believe that also translates to being less sick.


Well, good then.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 30, 2022)

... and the fake news continues....

The proven damage to children and adults from the measures taken  - masking, jabs,  isolation, shutdowns, 

caused trillions of dollars of loss,  and millions more harmed,  than by any real or fake virus.

The money/power/elite have gotten what they wanted,  and become much much much richer doing so,  and their power increases daily.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> ... and the fake news continues....


Do  you believe the Scientific American article to be fake news?  

If so why?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Do  you believe the Scientific American article to be fake news?
> 
> If so why?


Is the article about some virus pandemic as if it was a real thing ever ?   If so,  then it was based on a false premise,  a false start,   false information,  perpetrated world wide.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Do  you believe the Scientific American article to be fake news?
> 
> If so why?


He can't give you any information.  He worked in the medical field and has decided he is an expert in all things medical.  He knows how to cure cancer and all illnesses.  Yet, I have not seen him anywhere, curing anybody or anything. All news is fake and we are just a bunch of doorknobs that don't have a clue.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Hello doorknob.  (only one, not a bunch).   Those who are searching for the truth about all this are finding it.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

I guess you can't find a door knob to open a door to consider that all things you believe are based only on your opinions and your information. I guess we should all be jumping for joy, we have someone that can solve any health issue that comes are way.  Do you ever consider other opinions or studies that do not meet your approval.  

I go to the doctor, I have regular checkups, blood work, colonscopies, cat scans.
I take supplements for vitamins or minerals that are low according to the blood work.  I take regular treatment for migraines, I still have them but not as painful as they once were.  No, I do not take narcotics for pain relief of the migraines.  I had to have a hip replacement last year.  I did take narcotics for pain after surgery as needed.  Is that okay?  Should a major surgery cause no pain?

Where do you draw the line when you need medical intervention.  If you have made it this far with no issues you are very much the minority.  

There must be more interesting things you have to share but you are stuck on medical and fake news.  Just be a regular guy and let people get to know you.  Tell us about your family, your hobbies, your travels.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Is the article about some virus pandemic as if it was a real thing ever ? If so, then it was based on a false premise, a false start, false information, perpetrated world wide.


So you don't believe the Covid virus was something new, a pandemic that appeared a couple of years ago?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Medical idolatry ,  see online,  is the biggest deception and the thing most worshiped sinfully on earth today.  Possibly even more than any man-based religion.   It and religion are possibly or probably the biggest danger to man than anything else besides love of money.
It has grown exponentially,  horrifically, for over a century,   not to care for people,  but for sheer godless profits.  
The natural ways, the healthy ways,  are pushed aside, ignored or just unknown now, often,  but some still hold to them, find them, the ways God gave for healing and for preventing problems.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> So you don't believe the Covid virus was something new, a pandemic that appeared a couple of years ago?


Why should anyone believe that ?


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

What about the Spanish flu, was that a mirage as well?  That was well before the days of big pharma and technology.  Let's take it back further, centuries ago, when there was this thing that was called the plague. 

Was history just made up? Did those things not happen?  Was it fake news, covered up by the government?  Was big pharma trying to make money off of it?


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Get your real news from the Internet bloggers.  That way, you will be an insider knowing what's really going on.  But the real boost is knowing you are one of the elite that sees the hidden conspiracy afoot.  The medical community is injecting us with tracking devices and nanobots turning us into cyborgs and metahumans so General Zod can rule the planet.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

You never heard the truth while growing up about those things, did you ?   Rmember that the victor rewrites history.   History happens,  but what you were taught, like most all of us, about what happened was re-written totally by the powers in charge/in control.  
Oh,  you might still find the truth if you look for it,  but it is not easy.  The whole system/family/community you grew up in ,  that almost everyone grew up in,  was prevented from knowing the truth,  on purpose,  by those in power - yes, in the u.s.a. and most if not all countries. 


Blessed said:


> Was history just made up? Did those things not happen?


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Lex Luthor will be president.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> just tested positive for Covid so I have been doing some research


Why did you do *some *research ?   
The sources of most research are the ones promoting the fake pandemic and all the harmful measures taken .

Did you do any research on why the tests are mostly or totally unreliable ?  
i.e.  it was reported somewhere that a positive test without symptoms later became a negative test - no disease.    The status or results of a test was never reliable in the system as it is used.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

So, I everything I learned in church about God, Jesus and the bible, their love for me was all made up.  I don't think the government kept me from going to church, twice on Sunday and on Wednesday evenings.  Should I just throw that all away?  Was none of that true or just make believe?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

There is a small chance you could catch on ..... 
keep searching.  Or start searching.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

Why, because I believe in my heavenly father?  I don't need to search everything, I know that I have to put my trust in him and him in me.  He will guide me in all.  You seem to be the one that is searching. If you were at peace with the world around you, you would not need to go crazy searching or blaming.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

If or when you put your trust in Him,  Him Willing,  
He will guide you to freedom from the medical lies .

If you don't,  He May of May not,  it's up to Him.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

He does not talk to me about medical lies.  He talks to me about the kingdom of heaven.  That his son died for me that I may live eternally in heaven.  All things on earth and in heaven are made by him.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

No lie is from the Father.   
The lies you believe are not from above.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> He does not talk to me about medical lies.


He does not talk to most in the world about any lies,  medical, political, money, financial, real estate, education, hospitals, stock market, mob, hollywood, etc etc etc .....
He does not even hear their prayers, because they love sin instead of Him.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

So we should all assume that we are not worthy of his love or attention. That are prayers are not heard or answered.  When I pray the list of things you have given are not on my list.  I pray for guidance when struggling, I pray for him to look after my family and friends.  I pray for him to give comfort to those that are sick, hungry, homeless and lost.  

I have yet to meet people or heard prayers for the the things you listed.  Prayers should not be self serving, wishing harm to people, wishing for sucess in your life. Sucess is earned by hard work in all areas of your life.  Prayers are for giving thanks all of the things that you have been given, no matter how small or how great.  Just to give thanks for the life that he has given. It is up to us to make it a happy life.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> He does not talk to me about medical lies. He talks to me about the kingdom of heaven.


Oh really ?  In the kingdom of heaven,  wherever and everywhere that God Rules,  there is no botox, and no need for it.   

re Max Gerson, MD, et al.  if you want God's Way, non-toxic, non-lie,  of Relief /Freedom from headaches including migraines.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> That our prayers are not heard or answered.


Do not assume anything.  It is written.  Yes, in the Bible I reckon you claim you believe in, but don't do what it says.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

You bet, when I get to the kingdom of heaven I will have no need for it.  Here, at this time I do what I must to handle the pain, if you don't have the condition, you or Max Gerson can't fix it.  

Yes, this is one that I have prayed about it. I tried many medications to help, I did not like the side effects, so I don't take those pills or IV treatments.  I chose to use botox that keeps my muscles from seizing.  I also use ice packs and an ice hat.  If you don't suffer from this medical problem I invite you to go read, research and understand the condition.  

Again, I ask if you have ever suffered from a medical condition? Do you ever or have you ever seen a doctor? Do people all over the world just make this stuff up?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> You bet, when I get to the kingdom of heaven I will have no need for it. Here, at this time I do what I must to handle the pain, if you don't have the condition, you or Max Gerson can't fix it.
> 
> Yes, this is one that I have prayed about it. I tried many medications to help,


Prayer to God and then taking /trying medications that He does not approve of is not exactly kosher,  is it ? 
God never told you to take drugs with side effects,  unless maybe to show you after that a better way.
Thus it may well be, as it usually is for people, your migraines are your own 'fault' , either wittingly or unwittingly ,  and can be relieved without drugs totally,  if you are honest and seek the truth from God.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> If you don't suffer from this medical problem I invite you to go read, research and understand the condition.


If you did as you say to do,  you would not have to suffer any more.   You would be free.
Oh,  one more 'condition' - trust God, not medicine/ not doctors. 
I have seen in Scripture and historically, and believe, that He curses all those, even believers, who put their trust in the flesh/man/mankind/medical doctors.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Do people all over the world just make this stuff up?


Do you know at all
what the Bible says
about people all over the world / society ?

Key word:  pernicious - death-dealing.
in Galatians,   in harmony perfectly with all of Scripture and with all of God's Plan and Purpose.

i.e.  mankind is full of sin, sinful, and not even seeking to be free from the evil,  rather seeking to drag everyone everywhere down to the pit daily.


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> It says what we have long known, and now even more data is available.  People who are vaccinated are less likely to die when they contract Covid than the unvaccinated.
> 
> Fortunately the death rates are low, only about 0.01% even for unvaccinated over 65.  Still that is about 10 times higher than vaccinated.  This article does not say so, but I believe that also translates to being less sick.


Omicron may be more communicable, but it is less dangerous, but it's only the latest variation of the virus.  We can't predict the outcome of this because we don't know what the next mutation of Covid will look like.  We can't even know if we are at the end of the pandemic, the middle, or even the beginning for that matter.

I know my comment may not be entirely relevant to your opening post, but we are so derailed at this point, consider this just a feeble attempt to get us back to a rational discussion.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

"Rational" about a fake political medical debacle ?
I heard "they" are creating a bigger scare this week in Portugal,  where perhaps the nation/people are more gullible and persuadable and the power there is more complete,  to use to force other countries/usa included/  to more draconian and devious measures again - shutdowns, sickness-causing-fds,  etc etc and toxic jabs of course.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Prayer to God and then taking /trying medications that He does not approve of is not exactly kosher,  is it ?
> God never told you to take drugs with side effects,  unless maybe to show you after that a better way.
> Thus it may well be, as it usually is for people, your migraines are your own 'fault' , either wittingly or unwittingly ,  and can be relieved without drugs totally,  if you are honest and seek the truth from God.


Why is it you never answer anyone's questions?  You just throw back a bunch of stuff. You cant' answer any question on your own? How do you know so much about everything?  Is that just all in your mind? If my migraines all my own fault, then I suppose taking care of a husband with terminal cancer was my fault,  taking care of my Mom in my home for two years of dementia was my fault.  Taking care of a family friend in my home while he covered from an amputation was my own fault.  No, these were the lessons that God taught.
No, I can't quote the bible,I just live the things I learned.


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

> Anyone here a snob?.....Are there ways you think you are better than most? No judgement here just concern.


https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/any-snobs-here-in-what-way.72550/


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## Sunny (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed, the answer is that he has been thoroughly brainwashed. No amount of truth, scientific data, or any other findings of the modern world will get through to him.  He chooses to believe lies he's heard from other people (probably politicians), or maybe he's just making them up himself. It's too bad that in forums like this, rational discussion is sometimes subverted by someone who is doing it for mischievous reasons, or maybe he actually believes his own insane statements.

Throwing God, prayer, etc. into a discussion about the comparative rate of covid deaths between vaccinated and unvaccinated people is both funny and pathetic. It reminds me of the character in old comic strips who walked around with a sign saying, "Repent, Sinners!"  Alas, the religious fanatics are still doing their destructive worst.

The truth, of course, is that so far, at least, the vaccine has been extremely successful in preventing the disease, or at least in some cases, keeping people from dying of it. And that's the only meaningful fact in this whole discussion.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> then I suppose taking care of a husband with terminal cancer was my fault


Your fault ?   Why ? 
I took care of a close family friend who just wanted to die because they were diagnosed with terminal cancer decades ago, for six months.
Whose fault was that ?

A sunny brainwashed brainwashing is not helpful.  Will they ever learn, or will they never learn ?    Most likely.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Sunny said:


> . And that's the only meaningful fact in this whole discussion.


Meaning different when the false news is realized.

Why did you so far always give in to it ?   Like others,  because that's what you were long ago taught as if it was right ?   And never learned what is right ?


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Meaning different when the false news is realized.


@Just Jeff , what sources do you believe and rely on for health information on Covid and vaccines?  If you had to point at the 2 or 3 best what would they be?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> @Just Jeff , what sources do you believe and rely on for health information on Covid and vaccines?  If you had to point at the 2 or 3 best what would they be?


I learned long ago, a few decades ago,  from the pharma representatives,  that they would not tell people the truth , on purpose,  hiding the remedies,  in order to sell 100000.00 treatments.  Asked them directly face to face in person, if they thought it was right to charge that much, to bankrupt families often,  and not even be able to guarantee good results,  instead of just telling them the truth for a few thousand dollars curing them  ---- EVERY ONE OF THEM said YES.  (they thought it was 'right' to do).   I asked each one, in person, face to face,  WHY?   Immediately, no matter where they were from , anywhere in the country or another country,  they each replied exactly the same "we cannot patent it".


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

A used car salesman,  selling cars with hidden problems making them unusable without major repair within a few months,  
is more reliable source than anyone controlled by the druglords,  right ? 
And A LOT less expensive.
And A LOT less harmful.


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Has anyone listed the sources and credentials the anti-vaxers use to charge the CDC or WHO with fake news? It really looks like they don't have any sources, just things they heard from someone else whose information may come from Mad Magazine for all we know.





Alligatorob said:


> @Just Jeff ,





Just Jeff said:


> I learned long ago, a few decades ago,  from the pharma representatives,  that they would not tell people the truth , on purpose,  hiding the remedies,  in order to sell 100000.00 treatments.  Asked them directly face to face in person, if they thought it was right to charge that much, to bankrupt families often,  and not even be able to guarantee good results,  instead of just telling them the truth for a few thousand dollars curing them  ---- EVERY ONE OF THEM said YES.  (they thought it was 'right' to do).   I asked each one, in person, face to face,  WHY?   Immediately, no matter where they were from , anywhere in the country or another country,  they each replied exactly the same "we cannot patent it".


But the question was From alligatorob, "what sources do you believe and rely on for health information on Covid and vaccines?  If you had to point at the 2 or 3 best what would they be?"  Do you have any sources?


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## Just Jeff (Jul 1, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Has anyone listed the sources and credentials the anti-vaxers use to charge the CDC or WHO with fake news?


The best source to see the fake news of the authorities is the authorities themselves, and how often their story keeps changing,  especially the last three years.

The pandemic "plan" was planned decade or more ago,  maybe you can find it in writing or online.
Otherwise, just watch and test the sources spreading the stuff you for some reason accepted in the past,   don't take it for granted,  don't trust without testing it yourself and seeing how what they say conflicts with their own information frequently. 

Test for yourself,  don't trust the anti-vaxers (why did you bring them up even, anyway?) .

Go as far back in history over the last century plus some,  if you are seeking the truth about things today. 

Those who were never trustworthy,  those who could not be trusted when they first came to power,  
are still untrustworthy,  
and being pc politically correct does not make them any more trustworthy at all.


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Still, not answering the question?


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Omicron may be more communicable, but it is less dangerous, but it's only the latest variation of the virus.


Yes, I believe that is true.  The numbers I cited were for March 2022, when I believe Omicron was dominant.


JustDave said:


> We can't predict the outcome of this because we don't know what the next mutation of Covid will look like. We can't even know if we are at the end of the pandemic, the middle, or even the beginning for that matter.


You are right, no way to really know.  

However if this follows a common pattern as the virus evolves it will likely get less dangerous and more communicable.  The traits are related.  Natural selection of course favors more communicable, and the less virulent the virus, the healthier the carrier, and the more able to spread the thing.  It is also likely the vaccine will become less effective, but a new updated version should help with that.  

This is of course all speculation, we just have to wait and see what really happens.


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## Em in Ohio (Jul 1, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Is the article about some virus pandemic as if it was a real thing ever ?   If so,  then it was based on a false premise,  a false start,   false information,  perpetrated world wide.


huh?  really?   what the?


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## JustDave (Jul 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> a common pattern as the virus evolves it will likely get less dangerous and more communicable.  The traits are related.  Natural selection of course favors more communicable, and the less virulent the virus, the healthier the carrier, and the more able to spread the thing.


Yes, this would be desirable for both the  virus and humans, I think, so it is quite possible that this would be the eventual outcome.  However, evolution doesn't plan anything, and following mutations are still unpredictable.  It seems to me Covid mutates more than other viruses, but I haven't been paying much attention to other viruses, so I don't know what is typical.



> It is also likely the vaccine will become less effective, but a new updated version should help with that.


Our current vaccines for Covid helped slow down the spread, but they are not 100% effective to be sure.  My guess is there will be more effective vaccines eventually.


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## Blessed (Jul 1, 2022)

Oh, you have not heard yet that @Just Jeff, knows the cure for everything that exists, that we can fix it all thru diet, cancer can be cured from your own body which he has done multiple times.  That we are all victims of fake news, by big pharma and doctors.  That if we believe in God he will fix it all. No other explaination count. Only what he says or promotes. I think that mental illness is alive and well, he has not chosen not to engage with anything that goes against anything he says or believes.  I do not live in a world of make believe, I take the real honest information that is available and react accordingly.


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## Don M. (Jul 1, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Oh, you have not heard yet that @Just Jeff, knows the cure for everything that exists, that we can fix it all thru diet, cancer can be cured from your own body which he has done multiple times.  That we are all victims of fake news, by big pharma and doctors.  That if we believe in God he will fix it all. No other explaination count. Only what he says or promotes. I think that mental illness is alive and well, he has not chosen not to engage with anything that goes against anything he says or believes.  I do not live in a world of make believe, I take the real honest information that is available and react accordingly.


When I read this guys posts, I am reminded of the definition for an  "internet troll".


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## Buckeye (Jul 1, 2022)

We have access to tons of data about Covid and the vaccines, on a very granular level, and on national levels.  However, every forum seems to have a couple of posters who dismiss all the data and facts with a wave of their hand, and go off on viro-babble, pseudo-science, quasi-religious tangents.

Is it possible that it is all done by an app, in control of the site owners, to generate site activity?  (Not that it would happen on this site, because Matrix..)

The fact remains that fully vaxxed people still die from Covid, but at a much, much lower rate than unvaxxed.


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## dseag2 (Jul 1, 2022)

JustJeff is really JustATroll.  @Pepper has already clocked him from another forum.  Not worth the argument IMO.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2022)

JustDave said:


> Our current vaccines for Covid helped slow down the spread, but they are not 100% effective to be sure. My guess is there will be more effective vaccines eventually.


I hope you are right about the more effective vaccine.  However it depends on how fast the virus changes.  

Our flu vaccines have never done much better than 50% effective, even though they are improved every year.  New flu viruses and old ones changing is the problem.


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## JustDave (Jul 2, 2022)

Don M. said:


> When I read this guys posts, I am reminded of the definition for an  "internet troll".  Not worth the argument.


Here's a BBC article about Internet trolls, which I have not heard much about lately.  This is from 2018, when it came to light that Russia was using trolls to infiltrate the Internet and create polarization in foreign politics and influence elections.  When I run up against low information users who cannot actually discuss anything, I always wonder about this.  Of course, not all trolls are Russian operatives.  Some just like to troll, some are just drawn to conspiracy theories, and we have enough ordinary home grown of our own who can't process information effectively.

Yes, not worth he argument.

Russia Trolls 'Spreading Vaccination Misinformation' to Create Discord
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45294192


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## JustDave (Jul 2, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I hope you are right about the more effective vaccine.  However it depends on how fast the virus changes.
> 
> Our flu vaccines have never done much better than 50% effective, even though they are improved every year.  New flu viruses and old ones changing is the problem.


That low?  I knew vaccinated people still got the flu, but getting the flu is no longer a yearly event since I started getting the shots.  I haven't had the flu now for several years, or maybe I've been getting milder infections that I don't recognize.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 2, 2022)

JustDave said:


> That low?


Yes, but it is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.  Flu is a group of different viruses, not just different varieties of the same like Covid.  So it may be harder to be effective.  About the flu vaccine in general the CDC says:

_Recent studies show flu vaccine can reduce the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well matched to the flu vaccine viruses._

Elsewhere the CDC says the 2022 flu vaccine was a bit less effective.

Even so I get the flu vaccines every year, and like you believe they have helped me.  A 50% risk reduction is significant and I believe worthwhile.


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## JustDave (Jul 2, 2022)

A phrase I often in hear in regards to wintertime  sickness is "Colds and flu," or the "Colds and flu season."  I don't know if it's coincidence, but since getting yearly flu shots, there has been a major change in my colds, also.  I used to get at least a couple each year, and at least one would be accompanied by violent sore throat that was 10 times worse than the fever, sneezing, and dripping.  Those have gone away.  <knock on wood> I have wondered about a connection.


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## Sunny (Jul 2, 2022)

I googled Internet trolling, and here's a good definition:
An Example of Trolling:

*Entering an online discussion on astronomy and insisting that the earth is flat in order to provoke an emotional and verbal response from community members*. This may be a relatively tame example,but the intent is still to disrupt and incite outrage.


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## JustDave (Jul 2, 2022)

Sunny said:


> I googled Internet trolling, and here's a good definition:
> An Example of Trolling:
> 
> *Entering an online discussion on astronomy and insisting that the earth is flat in order to provoke an emotional and verbal response from community members*. This may be a relatively tame example,but the intent is still to disrupt and incite outrage.


That's a pretty good definition of trolling.  It's sometimes hard to differentiate that from plain ignorance.  I've known moderators to get caught up in that definition and feel unable to act because they can't prove the person is a troll.  I would suggest, that the guideline used in the bigger social media outlets (facebook) of spreading false information may be a better reason for disciplining disruptive behavior.  I'm not criticizing moderators.  I certainly wouldn't want the job.  It's just something I've been thinking about.  Basically, I've come to accept that trolls, false information, and fake news are just part of the MISINFORMATION AGE.


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## SeniorBen (Jul 2, 2022)

Sunny said:


> I googled Internet trolling, and here's a good definition:
> An Example of Trolling:
> 
> *Entering an online discussion on astronomy and insisting that the earth is flat in order to provoke an emotional and verbal response from community members*. This may be a relatively tame example,but the intent is still to disrupt and incite outrage.


We have a few trolls here who repeatedly post that the covid-19 pandemic is a hoax and that vaccinations are unsafe. They rarely participate in other discussions, but when it comes to covid-19, watch out! They know the real truth! Just like the flat-earthers.


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## win231 (Jul 2, 2022)

JustDave said:


> That low?  I knew vaccinated people still got the flu, but getting the flu is no longer a yearly event since I started getting the shots.  I haven't had the flu now for several years, or maybe I've been getting milder infections that I don't recognize.


People often credit flu shots for not getting the flu.
I've never had a flu shot.  The last flu I had was 40 years ago.  I'm sure there are others who get yearly flu shots & also never get the flu & attribute it to flu shots.
Also tested negative for Covid twice (not my choice; ER tested me); never had any Covid vaccine.  I'm sure some people who chose to get vaccinated & never had Covid credit the vaccine, as well.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 2, 2022)

win231 said:


> People often credit flu shots for not getting the flu.
> I've never had a flu shot. The last flu I had was 40 years ago. I'm sure there are others who get yearly flu shots & also never get the flu & attribute it to flu shots.
> Also tested negative for Covid twice (not my choice; ER tested me); never had any Covid vaccine. I'm sure some people who chose to get vaccinated & never had Covid credit the vaccine, as well.


That is true, its why you need to rely on large population statistical results.  One ofs don't shed much light on the subject.  However they do often explain why people believe as they do.


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## win231 (Jul 2, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> That is true, its why you need to rely on large population statistical results.  One ofs don't shed much light on the subject.  However they do often explain why people believe as they do.


That might be true - if it was ony "one ofs."
To date, the only people I know who got sick with Covid were vaccinated.  
And that doesn't include many celebrities we're already aware of.


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## JustDave (Jul 2, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> That is true, its why you need to rely on large population statistical results.  One ofs don't shed much light on the subject.  However they do often explain why people believe as they do.


Typhoid Mary believed to her dying day that she never had typhoid.  The whole story is unsettling and her treatment controversial.  But this account follows the details as recorded.  And fairly covers opinion on both sides.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 2, 2022)

win231 said:


> That might be true - if it was ony "one ofs."
> To date, the only people I know who got sick with Covid were vaccinated.
> And that doesn't include many celebrities we're already aware of.


I am not sure the vaccine reduces the risk of contracting Covid, it is interesting that the CDC does not appear to claim this as a benefit.  What is clear is that the vaccine reduces the risk of dying of Covid.  The article cited in post #1 explains why more vaccinated people are dying of Covid than unvaccinated.  This is because most people are now vaccinated.

To be meaningful you have to look at prorated statistics, deaths per 100,000 people is the way the article does it.

It would be interesting to know what the risk of contracting Covid is vaccinated vs unvaccinated.  I could not find those numbers, but they are probably out there.

I know a lot of unvaccinated people who have contracted Covid, including my brother I mentioned in post #1.  I also know a lot of vaccinated people who have contracted it, including my wife.  

The only 2 people I know who died of it were unvaccinated.  Again not enough of a sampling to have statistical meaning, but it probably impacts the way I think about it.


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## JustDave (Jul 3, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> The only 2 people I know who died of it were unvaccinated.  Again not enough of a sampling to have statistical meaning, but it probably impacts the way I think about it.


It serves as confirmation bias to those who process information in clumsy ways.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 3, 2022)

JustDave said:


> It serves as confirmation bias to those who process information in clumsy ways


Don't we all?  At least to some extent.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 6, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> my unvaccinated (and over 65) brother just tested positive for Covid


An update on my brother, he has been sick about a week now, it hurt a lot but he is getting better.  His wife, her mother, their daughter, her husband and her two kids all got it also.  None were vaccinated, but none deathly ill.  SIL has it the worst.  His 90 something MIL seems to be doing the best.

No moral to the story, I would like to think that if they had been vaccinated they might have gotten less sick, but I am not sure.  I think it probably would have helped.  And I would like to think that the vaccine might have protected them from getting Covid at all, but of that I am less sure.

Just one more statistically useless story to add to the list I guess...


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## Alligatorob (Jul 6, 2022)

win231 said:


> People often credit flu shots for not getting the flu.


Studies show they are right about half the time.


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## Sunny (Jul 7, 2022)

The large scale statistics are the only meaningful source of information about vaccines or other health issues. We've all seen the stories about the rare people who have lived to age 120 or so, and have smoked most of their life, etc.  Winston Churchill was overweight, always had a cigar in his mouth, and I suspect his diet was anything but healthy. One case proves nothing, one way or another. But studying millions of people usually does produce significant data.


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