# Snowden says he would agree to a plea deal!



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

He wants life in prison off the table in any deal but that is the usual punishment for his type of crime.  How much time to serve would you offer him other than life?


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Why does he want to come back?  Isn't life in Russia suiting him?   I thought he would be really happy there..


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

I don't believe he committed a crime at all.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Seriously?     Snowden is a traitor...  Isn't stealing National secrets and  taking them to China... then Russia a crime in your book?   It certainly is in mine...   He should stay in Russia.... and enjoy his freedom... such as it is..


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

I, like many others, respectfully disagree. I believe he is a true patriot. This socialist believes governments should be held to account. I only hope, in a similar situation, I would have half his courage. I love my country, Canadians are hugely patriotic. But it is incumbent upon us to expose heinous practices when they are done in our name. With my last breath, I will shout "J'accuse" if it is warranted. I will not countenance fascist acts. National secrets is often a catchall to cover anything a 
particular government wishes to pretend did not occur.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

I applaud Mr Snowden and Chelsea Manning for their courage. What was happening covertly was wrong, they acted in a 
principled fashion. Countries almost invariably punish whistleblowers. My country right or wrong stance, erodes our civil liberties, and promotes a culture of fear and repression. I will not willingly live that way.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Well, I hope that you have no access to classified information...


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Perhaps you could send a drone to find out? Lol.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

When we send drones it is usually to take people out!


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Sort of a preemptive strike, then Ralphy? Lol.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Keep an eye to the sky!


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Thanks for the warning! Now I can truly enjoy my Thanksgiving Day! I shall treat it as if it were my last.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

If you are on our list, it just might be...


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Ain't that the truth!! Oh well. I will have another drink, enjoy the view, and off to bed below decks.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Below decks?  In a hammock?


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

No Ralphy. I am spending Thanksgiving on a friend's houseboat. Real beds, all mod cons. Beautiful houseboat.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Hmm, well don't forget that we also have submarines, so keep an ear listening though they are pretty silent...


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Ok Ralphy. I hope we can at least finish Thanksgiving Dinner first before being torpedoed. It will be a big feast.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Maybe you should just hoist a white sheet of surrender and share your feast and festivities with the crew.  Hope you have a white sheet and not some other color as they may get the wrong message...


----------



## Debby (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I don't believe he committed a crime at all.




I'm with you Shalimar.  I think the world needs to know what governments are doing to us for one thing.  Transparency and the cold light of day on all their conniving and scheming.  They're constantly bleating at us 'we're making you safer'.  Yeah right....since when is the world safer with Britain telling it's airforce to blow Russian planes out of the sky, ISIS on the prowl (and we won't discuss how they came to be), Ukraine killing it's own citizens and governments being managed and manipulated, disposed of and/or supported even if they're dictators!   Not safer, just more afraid.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Be careful, we have a cruise missile with your name on it...


----------



## Debby (Oct 12, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Maybe you should just hoist a white sheet of surrender and share your feast and festivities with the crew.  Hope you have a white sheet and not some other color as they may get the wrong message...




Pretty sure a houseboat doesn't look like a hospital.

As to the cruise missile comment, true colours showing here?


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Debby said:


> Pretty sure a houseboat doesn't look like a hospital.
> 
> As to the cruise missile comment, true colours showing here?



Would that be OUR cruise missile.... Or Russia's.   But be careful... they may hit Greenland instead... lol!!   I hear they aren't such great shots...


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Oh hell,  it's Thanksgiving, anybody can come aboard if they are acting in good faith and share our feast. We will be using a pink tablecloth though....


----------



## Debby (Oct 12, 2015)

Well since Ralph was the one threatening I guess it would be your cruise missile.  As to Russia, well they're doing the job better over there to take out ISIS (with documentation and arial photos as proof apparently) than the US, Canada and the rest were pretending to do for a year.  Besides, while you're laughing, don't forget the hospital (for thirty minutes AFTER notifying your side who they were).

Funnily enough (?) I was just reading the 'gun' thread where you QS said, 'Hasn't anyone noticed that the "gun culture" has become worse and more vocal...' just after Ralph 'threatening' to blow me (or was it Shalimar?) up with one of your cruise missiles.  So I guess you'd be right about that attitude of violence and using guns to settle things getting worse.  Even old people are getting in on the act.

What on earth ever happened to people trying to get along?  Working out compromises, practising 'diplomacy' to settle disputes?  Now it's all, 'pull out the guns and the bigger the better'.


----------



## Jackie22 (Oct 12, 2015)

Snowden is a traitor, we should make no 'deals' with him.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 12, 2015)

You see, Jackie is on the side of justice and probably the American way of meting it out.  Further, who cares about Greenland...


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

There will be no justice I fear for either Mr. Snowden, or the political prisoner Chelsea Manning. Guess I am now branded as a possible subversive? Perhaps my vets will have to watch my six?? Eek. Good night all. Happy Thanksgiving! It has been fun sparring with you.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> There will be no justice I fear for either Mr. Snowden, or the political prisoner Chelsea Manning. Guess I am now branded as a possible subversive? Perhaps my vets will have to watch my six?? Eek. Good night all. Happy Thanksgiving! It has been fun sparring with you.



If that little weasel comes back here... there certainly WILL be justice.   He will go to the pen where he belongs.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 12, 2015)

Debby said:


> I'm with you Shalimar.  I think the world needs to know what governments are doing to us for one thing.  Transparency and the cold light of day on all their conniving and scheming.  They're constantly bleating at us 'we're making you safer'.  Yeah right....since when is the world safer with Britain telling it's airforce to blow Russian planes out of the sky, ISIS on the prowl (and we won't discuss how they came to be), Ukraine killing it's own citizens and governments being managed and manipulated, disposed of and/or supported even if they're dictators!   Not safer, just more afraid.



I agree with both of you, I'm glad he had the nerve to speak out, more of a hero, IMO.  http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden/#ch-1


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

So you don't believe that there should be surveillance of possible terrorist activities via email or phone calls... just so your appointment at the dog groomer can be confidential?    Amazing..     I for one don't give a hoot who knows when Fido is going to the groomer or what time Auntie Rose is coming to dinner.... so long as they catch the guy planning to make a bomb... or is on his way to the ME to join ISIS.. or maybe planning a mass shooting.


----------



## Debby (Oct 12, 2015)

I think when there is a reason to watch someone and a warrant has been issued as a result of presented proof, then watch them.  But to spy on the average citizen AND those people with whom you are involved in business negotiations and/or you declare as 'friends', it changes the landscape entirely and puts the spy directly onto the slippery slope where the loss of civil liberties and  rights are likely.   That is to say, 'the people let them get away with it once, try for more and see if they scream'.  And soon the people learn to be silent, not to question, not to step out of line.......

Keep in mind also, that knowing in advance didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing from happening.  http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-usa-explosions-boston-congress-idUSBREA2P02Q20140326  Russia advised your FBI twice, that those two were involved with Chechyn terrorists and apparently, they were considered not important enough to watch.  But they were happy to collect data on innocent citizens!  

The question is how many of our rights are we willing to give up?  And after we've given them up, if we (the people) ever decide that we've been had, and we want our rights back, what makes you think that those who've consistently lied to us to date, will dial it back and reinstate them.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Debby said:


> I think when there is a reason to watch someone and a warrant has been issued as a result of presented proof, then watch them.  But to spy on the average citizen AND those people with whom you are involved in business negotiations and/or you declare as 'friends', it changes the landscape entirely and puts the spy directly onto the slippery slope where the loss of civil liberties and  rights are likely.   That is to say, 'the people let them get away with it once, try for more and see if they scream'.  And soon the people learn to be silent, not to question, not to step out of line.......
> 
> Keep in mind also, that knowing in advance didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing from happening.  http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-usa-explosions-boston-congress-idUSBREA2P02Q20140326  Russia advised your FBI twice, that those two were involved with Chechyn terrorists and apparently, they were considered not important enough to watch.  But they were happy to collect data on innocent citizens!
> 
> The question is how many of our rights are we willing to give up?  And after we've given them up, if we (the people) ever decide that we've been had, and we want our rights back, what makes you think that those who've consistently lied to us to date, will dial it back and reinstate them.




Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance.   Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

Bottom line, we are not perfect but then what country is?


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance.   Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11




More about the NSA spying on Americans and false claims. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders-nsa-have-stop-making-remain-credible




> 1.  The NSA has Stopped 54 Terrorist Attacks with Mass Spying
> 
> _The discredited claim
> _
> ...


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> If that little weasel comes back here... there certainly WILL be justice.   He will go to the pen where he belongs.



Agree!


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 12, 2015)

Whether 4 or 54.. or whatever number.   If lives have been saved...  then it's worth it..   It doesn't bother me at all..


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I, like many others, respectfully disagree. I believe he is a true patriot. This socialist believes governments should be held to account. I only hope, in a similar situation, I would have half his courage. I love my country, Canadians are hugely patriotic. But it is incumbent upon us to expose heinous practices when they are done in our name. With my last breath, I will shout "J'accuse" if it is warranted. I will not countenance fascist acts. National secrets is often a catchall to cover anything a
> particular government wishes to pretend did not occur.



HIS opinion trumps the decisions of out Government when it comes to state secrets?  NO WAY!!!!!!  It's our problem and a few of our European allies who were and are being harmed by this traitor.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

I spent 30 years of my life with access to officially Secret SAR information, during that time and up through now, I never betrayed that oath.  Any person can have an opinion but in this case only Americans opinions count.  Anyone who calls this man a hero is absolutely naive and totally wrong.


----------



## BobF (Oct 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I spent 30 years of my life with access to officially Secret SAR information, during that time and up through now, I never betrayed that oath.  Any person can have an opinion but in this case only Americans opinions count.  Anyone who calls this man a hero is absolutely naive and totally wrong.



For this comment, we are on the same page.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree with both of you, I'm glad he had the nerve to speak out, more of a hero, IMO.  http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden/#ch-1


SB  So you like an issue he took advantage of our trust to obtain.  How do you decide which government secret is to protect you, your home, your literal freedom?  So, anyone who happened to obtain our plans to evacuate an embassy due to good intelligence that  it would be attacked on x date would be a hero to tell our enemy all about it?  When we were to invade Normandy fair game?  In other words this twerp had NO insight as to the possible harm being done by his (in your words) heroic deed.  I am ashamed of any American who thinks so little of his homeland that would turn to a traitor and hold him up as anything but despicable.  These things come back to harm us in one way or another.  BTW In your link the weasel is shown holding an American flag, if I had been present, I would have ripped it from his filthy hands.  This brings to mind the tea party, they are "patriots" too, they say.

Remember these "patriots"? Julius *Rosenberg* (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass *Rosenberg*  (September 28, 1915 – June 19, 1953) were American citizens executed  for conspiracy to commit espionage, relating to passing information  about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Naive? Many things perhaps, but never that. Governments lie, cheat, steal, instil paranoia, all in the name of power. So it has always been. I will not willingly give up my civil liberties in the name of pseudo safety, nor grovel in the dirt of a false 

patriotism designed to hide  the erosion of democracy, and the increasing might of the military/spy complex. To such attempts/rationalisations  I reply, "j'accuse!"  Today's whistleblowers are the new patriots. I salute their courage. I salute their 
willingness to live by their principles, in the TRUE American fashion. Ils sont tres formidable. Salut!


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Naive? Many things perhaps, but never that. Governments lie, cheat, steal, instil paranoia, all in the name of power. So it has always been. I will not willingly give up my civil liberties in the name of pseudo safety, nor grovel in the dirt of a false
> 
> patriotism designed to hide  the erosion of democracy, and the increasing might of the military/spy complex. To such attempts/rationalisations  I reply, "j'accuse!"  Today's whistleblowers are the new patriots. I salute their courage. I salute their
> willingness to live by their principles, in the TRUE American fashion. Ils sont tres formidable. Salut!



Learn the difference between a "whistle blower" and a "traitor".  A whistle blower finds what he/she believes to be a problem within an organization and reports it within the confines of his country..  A traitor, as is the case here, is a contractor employee who comes across government top secret data and releases it to an enemy.  Snowden is a common traitor and coward.  No patriot he.  I will only respond on this issue henceforth with fellow citizens affected.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Cry The Beloved Country! Our less than esteemed Prime Minister has rammed his version of the Patriot Act down our collective throats. According to law makers, probably  unconstitutional.  Should he be removed on October 19, there is considerable 

belief it will be struck down. If not, we will take to the streets in civil disobedience. We will be arrested, and thrown in jail, regardless of age, creed, or colour, even those of us suffering from rampant claustrophobia. Such is the price of Canadian 

freedom. This is the vigilance I honour! Freedom and tyranny are not the business of a few, but resonate with any and all who refuse to live in a police state, something which concerns many patriotic Americans today. If he had his way, Prime Minister 

Harper would have us live in such a country also. Not in my name! I will wrap myself in the Maple Leaf and protest, again, and again, and again! "My country, true north strong and free, I will stand on guard for thee!" Happy Thanksgiving, my Canadian friends. Bonne fete.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

By the way Jim, it was you, not I, that initiated  first contact with each other on this thread. However, you are well within your rights to choose which posters you converse with. Ralphy, the op, was comfortable engaging all in this debate. It was not closed to any nationality. Therefore, I shall continue to offer my opinions where I feel so inclined.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> By the way Jim, it was you, not I, that initiated  first contact with each other on this thread. However, you are well within your rights to choose which posters you converse with. Ralphy, the op, was comfortable engaging all in this debate. It was not closed to any nationality. Therefore, I shall continue to offer my opinions where I feel so inclined.



As you or cookie told me on another thread, you have no dog in this fight.  I think the world of 99% of your opinions but when it comes to a matter of our security, I am less inclined to.  You have every right to post what you feel but I reserve the right to consider your or anyone else's motives in what they post and how the issue might affect them.  I am, however available to join in a rousing Kumbaya if you want.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 12, 2015)

Given the Protect America Act authorises the NSA to conduct warrantless surveillance on individuals outside the US, it is logical to wonder how many Canadian's rights to privacy have been affected by PRISM. No dog in this fight? Au contraire, on this issue I submit one giant Canadian Timberwolf.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 12, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Given the Protect America Act authorises the NSA to conduct warrantless surveillance on individuals outside the US, it is logical to wonder how many Canadian's rights to privacy have been affected by PRISM. No dog in this fight? Au contraire, on this issue I submit one giant Canadian Timberwolf.



I am not a hunter so your Timberwolf is safe from me.


----------



## Debby (Oct 13, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Bottom line, we are not perfect but then what country is?



Hey, I'm not pointing the finger at the USA alone Jim!   My government  has just done the same thing with Bill C51!   Here in Canada, we have a saying, 'the US sneezes and we cough', and look what we caught!   Our politicians caught the virus that causes the loss of rights and freedoms that we value so tremendously.


----------



## Debby (Oct 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Here's a list of terror attacks that were unsuccessful because of surveillance.   Unfortunately this is the world we live in Debby..
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11




Well I'll raise you one White House Review Committee member to your Wikipedia and when I turn my card over it says, "A member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks...."   http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-f2D11783588

So you give up your rights to privacy so that the NSA can spy on everyone to catch terrorists and apparently none of it accomplished anything in that regard except now they know all about you, your purchasing habits, your peccadilloslayful:, who you see, where you go, who you meet.....   I would guess that those people on the list you provided were caught by good old fashioned 'detective' work.


----------



## Debby (Oct 13, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> HIS opinion trumps the decisions of out Government when it comes to state secrets?  NO WAY!!!!!!  It's our problem and a few of our European allies who were and are being harmed by this traitor.





So any chance you can tell us who's been harmed by his leaked documents?  I haven't heard of any and haven't thought to look it up.  If anything, the USA's relationship was harmed/embarrassed with some of it's allies when they found out that you guys were spying on your friends and business associates.  I guess that would count wouldn't it?  Other than that ?


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 13, 2015)

Debby said:


> I think when there is a reason to watch someone and a warrant has been issued as a result of presented proof, then watch them.  But to spy on the average citizen AND those people with whom you are involved in business negotiations and/or you declare as 'friends', it changes the landscape entirely and puts the spy directly onto the slippery slope where the loss of civil liberties and  rights are likely.   That is to say, 'the people let them get away with it once, try for more and see if they scream'.  And soon the people learn to be silent, not to question, not to step out of line.......
> 
> The question is how many of our rights are we willing to give up?  And after we've given them up, if we (the people) ever decide that we've been had, and we want our rights back, what makes you think that those who've consistently lied to us to date, will dial it back and reinstate them.



I agree Debby, right on point.  I believe the NSA was put in place to monitor and decode Soviet communications, not to monitor innocent American citizens under the guise of finding the guilty.  Edward Snowden wanted to call attention to the fact that the government was doing such unlawful things, and I applaud him for it.  For all the sneaky and illegal snooping done by the government, there's little if any evidence that it's stopped any terrorist attacks at all.

  The government needs to stop frisking every citizen in the hopes of stumbling across some plot.  The 4th Amendment is supposed to protect the citizens of the United States against unreasonable search and seizures, to violate _that _is the sign of a traitor to our country, not what Snowden did...and that definitely all went out the window after 9/11 and the Patriot Act.  You're absolutely right, when we hand over all of our rights, they will never again be reinstated.



> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



BTW, everyone has the right to express their opinions and share their thoughts on these issues, _not _just Americans.  I, for one, appreciate hearing views of others whether I agree with them or not and welcome the knowledgeable input of people outside of the United States of America.


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 13, 2015)

SB, I agree with your take on the NSA. Sadly, the paranoia has spread to Canada, primarily due to the anti Muslim stance of our right wing  envangelical Prime Minister. More than once he has attempted to ride roughshod over our constitution , only to 

end up with egg on his face after challenging our supreme court. Thank you for your endorsement of the contributions of non 

Americans to the site. We are not anti American, we are deeply concerned with the current struggles America is suffering, and only wish to help. Sometimes we attempt to offer a wider perspective of world events than is usually offered by mainstream media. Again, no bashing of America  is intended.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 14, 2015)

Furriner opinions might be tolerated but not solicited.  Now it is time for me to take it below and do a launch missiles drill...


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 14, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> SB, I agree with your take on the NSA. Sadly, the paranoia has spread to Canada, primarily due to the anti Muslim stance of our right wing  envangelical Prime Minister. More than once he has attempted to ride roughshod over our constitution , only to
> 
> end up with egg on his face after challenging our supreme court. Thank you for your endorsement of the contributions of non
> 
> Americans to the site. We are not anti American, we are deeply concerned with the current struggles America is suffering, and only wish to help. Sometimes we attempt to offer a wider perspective of world events than is usually offered by mainstream media. Again, no bashing of America  is intended.



I know that you're not anti-American Shalimar, and I do believe that many in Canada are concerned with the struggles here.  I have opinions about Canada also, I like the healthcare system you have, but don't care for the strict gun laws.  Funny how some Americans are all for the constitution when it when it suits them, but they're willing to lie down and have their privacy invaded, giving up their rights to unwarranted searches/seizures.  As Debby said, it changes the whole landscape...might as well just jump into communism, IMO....that's where this is leading.  Whistleblowers like Snowden _should _make citizens aware, and keep the government in check.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 14, 2015)

Which brings us back to the original Constitutional question...   When did a "well regulated militia"  get translated into an "well armed and Unregulated populace".... 

But I digress..


Snowden is a traitor... he broke the law... he needs to go to prison... period.  OR he needs to stay in Russia... which IMO is probably one and the same for him.. or he wouldn't be wanting to come back.   Guess he's tired of their hospitality...


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 14, 2015)

He should be pardoned, IMO.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 14, 2015)

GUess we have to agree to disagree then.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks Quicksilver, I respect your right to your opinion and have no desire to change it at all, no problem with agreeing to disagree...peace.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 14, 2015)

I cannot understand anyone excusing a citizen for betraying his country.  Snowden may have (damage still largely unknown) been responsible for who knows what loss of life or potential damage to his own country.  He is a worm, a filthy traitor and should be dealt with as such.


----------



## Shirley (Oct 14, 2015)

I beg to disagree. He exposed government spying on private citizens at the risk of his own life. If THEY had known he was going public, he would have had an unfortunate fatal accident.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 14, 2015)

What a shame that would be...


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 14, 2015)

Yeah it sure would break my heart if the little traitor weasel were to be harmed.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 14, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Yeah it sure would break my heart if the little traitor weasel were to be harmed.



Be careful..... yous gonna get a bad rep....


----------



## Susie (Oct 15, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> He wants life in prison off the table in any deal but that is the usual punishment for his type of crime.  How much time to serve would you offer him other than life?


Banishment to Siberia, hanging, removal to a concentration camp--which one will it be?
Were his revelations proved correct, or not?
Last night's LATELINE (ABC Australia) again demonstrated in detail how pervasive overall surveillance has become- frightening-every thought, idea, is consumed and digested by controlling surveillance!!!


----------



## tnthomas (Oct 15, 2015)

There's a right way and a wrong way to achieve objectives.   The route that Snowden took makes him a traitor. 

  Having an adult son close to Snowden's age, I feel a father's sorrow over a young man throwing away his future.    

There are many ways a person can fulfill their idealistic goals,  without running afoul of a nation's laws and security concerns.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 16, 2015)

Perhaps he will go awry in Russia and be sent to a gulag, a fitting punishment...


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

Do you think Russia will let him ANYWHERE near their government computers?


----------



## Ralphy1 (Oct 16, 2015)

No, but they may get tired of him living sort of laviously and can trump some charge to send off to freeze and ear gruel...


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 16, 2015)

The little otherwise insignificant weasel got the only thing he sought, infamy.  He deserves life in a federal prison.  Hero my ass!!!!


----------



## Susie (Oct 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Do you think Russia will let him ANYWHERE near their government computers?


Why not? He has to earn his keep somehow!
Maybe some kind of SPY activity??


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)

Yeah... maybe they can use him to spy on us...


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 16, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I beg to disagree. He exposed government spying on private citizens at the risk of his own life. If THEY had known he was going public, he would have had an unfortunate fatal accident.



I agree Shirley, fatal "accident" or something else, he wouldn't have fared well.  He handled it the best way he could, and many people are glad he spoke out.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)




----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2015)




----------



## Debby (Oct 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> No, but they may get tired of him living sort of laviously and can trump some charge to send off to freeze and ear gruel...




Interesting assumption, that he's living lavishly.  

As I was looking for an injury caused by these revelations (which so far doesn't seem to be showing up when I Google it), I came across the following.  It's a reference to a new security program that apparently has one significant flaw that if implemented, could be the cause of an unintended war that's actually started by a third party.  Seems to me that this flaw is significant.   http://www.wired.com/2014/08/edward-snowden/


'.....The massive surveillance effort was bad enough, but Snowden was even more disturbed to discover a new, Strangelovian cyberwarfare program in the works, codenamed MonsterMind. The program, disclosed here for the first time, would automate the process of hunting for the beginnings of a foreign cyberattack. 

Software would constantly be on the lookout for traffic patterns indicating known or suspected attacks. When it detected an attack, MonsterMind would automatically block it from entering the country—a “kill” in cyber terminology.Programs like this had existed for decades, but MonsterMind software would add a unique new capability: Instead of simply detecting and killing the malware at the point of entry, MonsterMind would automatically fire back, with no human involvement. 

That’s a problem, Snowden says, because the initial attacks are often routed through computers in innocent third countries. “These attacks can be spoofed,” he says. “You could have someone sitting in China, for example, making it appear that one of these attacks is originating in Russia. And then we end up shooting back at a Russian hospital. What happens next?”

In addition to the possibility of accidentally starting a war, Snowden views MonsterMind as the ultimate threat to privacy......'


----------



## Debby (Oct 16, 2015)

The only article I can find referencing said 'harm', is the following:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/edward-snowden-damage_n_5448035.html

 ......Contacted by HuffPost, the Defense Intelligence Agency, Office of the Director of National Intelligence and State Department all declined to provide additional detail on their claims of damage.........
...... Congress has been of little help in explaining to the public what damage -- if any -- Snowden has done.....

The article was written one year after (2014) and to date I don't think I've read anywhere that his whistle blowing has caused any deaths or injury and wouldnt you think that if it had, the press would have it handed to them on a silver platter for dissemination to the world to loudly proclaim, "We told you so".  "Here's the proof Snowden caused harm!"


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 16, 2015)

Debby, scary stuff. But many would rather kill the messenger than heed the message. In ancient times, often literally. If Snowden had gone through legal channels, none of this would have come to light. It would have been buried, and 
possibly him with it. Canada has not been good to our whistleblowers either. For far less vital information, they are harassed and routinely lose their jobs, treated like pariahs etc. Nations are about perpetuating power and influence, not about the welfare of individuals. We cannot afford to trust them to police themselves, but must remain forever vigilant, lest they usurp our freedom in the name of fear. A paranoid population, is a quiescent population. Throughout history, tyrants gain power through the straw dog of national security. Oops, there goes our freedom. No thanks. Where is the proof???


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 17, 2015)

Not everyone CARES about having surveillance.... or feels any FREEDOM is compromised by it ladies...   I prefer that terror plots are caught and stopped much more than I care if DHS knows when I have a dentist appointment..    It's the world we live in.  Get over it...  The enemy is not fighting a traditional war... our defense has to be different too.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 17, 2015)

Well said QS.  I have no fear of surveillance if it uncovers terrorists activity at times.  Nothing to hide here.


----------



## Jackie22 (Oct 17, 2015)

I for one am glad the surveillance and security are there, especially with flying, they can tap my phone all they want.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 17, 2015)

Debby said:


> The article was written one year after (2014) and to date I don't think I've read anywhere that his whistle blowing has caused any deaths or injury and wouldnt you think that if it had, the press would have it handed to them on a silver platter for dissemination to the world to loudly proclaim, "We told you so".  "Here's the proof Snowden caused harm!"



Very true Debby, we would have heard about it loud and clear.



Shalimar said:


> But many would rather kill the messenger than heed the message. In ancient times, often literally. If Snowden had gone through legal channels, none of this would have come to light. It would have been buried, and
> possibly him with it.



That's right Shalimar, Snowden had no option than to take the route he did for the truth to get out to the American people, he did good.


----------



## AZ Jim (Oct 17, 2015)

Say it over and over but it changes nothing.  He is a traitor.  During wartime he would be eligible for the firing squad and well deserved.


----------



## QuickSilver (Oct 17, 2015)

IMO... Let him stay in Russia... Why should WE taxpayers foot the bill for a trial and his incarceration..   I'm sure they can find some use for him..


----------



## Shalimar (Oct 17, 2015)

We shall agree to disagree. No harm no foul, interesting debate. Merci.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Nov 29, 2015)

Looks like one of the useless surveillance programs is coming to a close.  More here. 

On Sunday, the National Security Agency will have to shut down one of its controversial mass surveillance programs: the unlimited collection of the phone records of millions of Americans, known as bulk metadata collection.

That program allowed the NSA to collect information about citizens' phone calls, including whom they were calling, when and where they made calls, and how long those calls lasted.

 While metadata collection doesn't include what was said during those calls, the information can allow intelligence analysts to build up extensive profiles of an individual's pattern of life. 

The _New York Times_ first reported on the bulk metadata program, which was created under the Patriot Act, in late 2005, but it didn't attract truly widespread outrage—or reform—until details of the program appeared in the documents leaked by Edward Snowden in 2013.

 A federal judge in Washington, DC, ordered the program to stop in a ruling issued later that year, but that didn't happen until Congress passed a law this May that outlawed the bulk metadata program as of November 29. Under the new law, phone companies must now keep such records themselves, and intelligence agencies must seek permission from a federal judge to access specific data.

To its supporters, the program was a critical counterterrorism tool. "There is no other way that we know of to connect the dots…Taking the program off the table, from my perspective, is absolutely not the right thing to do," said former NSA director Keith Alexander to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2013. 

Michael Hayden, another former NSA chief, and former attorney general Michael Mukaseysaid in a joint op-ed that the reform law was "exquisitely crafted to hobble the gathering of electronic intelligence." After the terrorist attacks in Paris two weeks ago, there was even a failed last-ditch effort to restart the bulk phone records program.

But privacy advocates say the record tells a different story. "That program hasn't prevented or even contributed to preventing a single attack in the [nearly] 15 years that it's been in operation," says Elizabeth Goitein, the co-director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice.

Think tank reports on the program have backed her up. "There does not appear to be a case in which…bulk phone records played an important role in stopping a terrorist attack," wrote Marshall Erwin in a January 2014 report from the Hoover Institution, a conservative think tank.

 His counterparts at the nonpartisan but liberal-leaning New America Foundation found the same thing in a study that was released in the same month as Erwin's report. "Surveillance of American phone metadata has had no discernible impact on preventing acts of terrorism," wrote national security journalist Peter Bergen and three others in the New America study.

The government hasn't provided much more compelling evidence. The study from New America noted that President Barack Obama once claimed bulk surveillance had stopped at least 50 terrorist plots, but Alexander eventually admitted to the Senate Judiciary Committee that there was actually only _one_ such case, in which a San Diego cab driver had attempted to send money to the Somali terrorist group al-Shabaab.

 Richard Leon, the federal judge who ruled the bulk metadata program illegal in 2013, wrote that there was an "utter lack of evidence that a terrorist attack has ever been prevented because searching the NSA database was faster than other investigative tactics."

Late last year, a trio of Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee—Oregon's Ron Wyden, Colorado's Mark Udall, and New Mexico's Martin Heinrich—filed a brief in support of a lawsuit against bulk surveillance, saying they had "reviewed this surveillance extensively and have seen no evidence that the bulk collection of Americans' phone records has provided any intelligence of value that could not have been gathered through means that caused far less harm to the privacy interests of millions of Americans."

In fact, say privacy advocates, bulk surveillance can actually hurt intelligence rather than strengthen it. 

"Part of the problem is that the analysts were drowning in data," Goitein says, citing the 9/11 Commission Report as evidence. "There was too much information, and the threats got lost in the noise. So more surveillance isn't the answer."


----------



## Ralphy1 (Nov 30, 2015)

You nailed it AZ...


----------



## Sid N (Dec 1, 2015)

Don't people see what is happening ? Isn't this the way the Nazis and the Soviets did it ? Imagine if you will, the US once gave sanctuary to Soviet dissidents and now our roles are actually reversed where Russia is giving sanctuary to someone called...an American dissident.

Without an opposition, you have no republic. Without the freedom to divulge infringements on our rights with what's been proven to be only domestic surveillance techniques without revealing or risking those in operations who are in fact, often violating another country's sovereignty...we are truly doomed. 

Some commentators will tell you and I am not in disagreement, that with these very methods within a new legal regime domestically, add to that overwhelming power resulting in a new hegemony, a 4TH Reich is now forming...in the US. We are merely witnessing the long game, not the short version.

Already we are changing the meaning of words. When [they] kill innocents, we call it terrorism. When we kill innocents, we call it collateral damage.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 1, 2015)

Well said, Sid.


----------



## AZ Jim (Dec 1, 2015)

Sid N said:


> Don't people see what is happening ? Isn't this the way the Nazis and the Soviets did it ? Imagine if you will, the US once gave sanctuary to Soviet dissidents and now our roles are actually reversed where Russia is giving sanctuary to someone called...an American dissident.
> 
> Without an opposition, you have no republic. Without the freedom to divulge infringements on our rights with what's been proven to be only domestic surveillance techniques without revealing or risking those in operations who are in fact, often violating another country's sovereignty...we are truly doomed.
> 
> ...


  Sid, you have much to consider.  In this day and age much harm can be done to the entire country and our allies by a person who through his employment has the ability to gain access to information that is classified as secret by revealing it to others. How can a person take it upon themselves knowing nothing of the reasons behind the classification of said information or the harm it can do to others reveal this to potential enemies?  Anyone who agrees with you or Snowden needs to learn why state secrets must be kept sacred.   I won't even attempt to bring logic to you as it results from   our killing those who behead innocents compared  to the accidental killing of innocents in bombing.  Study WW2 and find out what civilian death from bombing is all about.  War is not a game of precision.  It is you Sid who fails to see what's happening.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 1, 2015)

Long live the whistleblowers. Salut.


----------



## AZ Jim (Dec 1, 2015)

Shalimar, there is a difference between a "whistle blower" and a traitor a distinction that makes a world of difference.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Dec 1, 2015)

Snowden is a whistleblower, not a traitor.  More here. 




> Snowden's leak was illegal -- but it wasn't treason under U.S. law. Article III of the Constitution defines it narrowly: It "shall consist only in levying War against'' the U.S., "or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."





> Judges have read that to mean joining enemy military forces or giving them intelligence directly. Snowden did neither. He sent documents to two newspapers.
> 
> Snowden's case is similar to that of U.S. Army Private First Class Bradley Manning, who sent secret documents to the website WikiLeaks. Manning went to trial last week accused of theft, computer fraud and violations of the Espionage Act, which criminalizes sharing sensitive military information. He won't face charges of treason.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZ Jim (Dec 1, 2015)

SB,  You can quote anything you want but it won't change my mind one iota.  I held a secret + Special Access classification from the Department of defense for 30 years much of that time on projects I still cannot speak of and I treasure the faith the Government placed in me to keep what I knew to myself.  I would  never allow myself to endanger our country or fellow Americans by disclosing classified information.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Dec 2, 2015)

While in the service I also had a clearance and faced a fine and prison term should I reveal top secret information.  I also respected what the government was doing to keep us secure...


----------



## IKE (Dec 2, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> While in the service I also had a clearance and faced a fine and prison term should I reveal top secret information.  I also respected what the government was doing to keep us secure...



I agree Ralphy......my clearance was granted after I left the military but while working closely with the military as a civilian.


----------



## Jackie22 (Dec 2, 2015)

.....he needs to stay in Russia, he made his bed.


----------



## QuickSilver (Dec 2, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> .....he needs to stay in Russia, he made his bed.



Apparently not as comfy a bed as he thought it was going to be... or he wouldn't be seeking a plea bargain.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 2, 2015)

One person's traitor is another's whistleblower. It is what it is. No one's mind is going to change here. That is ok too.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Dec 2, 2015)

Some of us have seen firsthand the need for secrecy and the need for extensive gathering of information to try to insure our safety...


----------



## SeaBreeze (Dec 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> SB,  You can quote anything you want but it won't change my mind one iota.



I'm not looking to change your mind Jim, you're entitled to your own opinion and I don't push anybody to change their views.  There are many other people who hold my views on Edward Snowden, so I'm hardly alone.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 2, 2015)

I have no problem with differences of opinion, providing people are courteous. When they become condescending or rude, well that is something else of course. Lolol.


----------



## WhatInThe (Dec 2, 2015)

*Pollard*



AZ Jim said:


> I cannot understand anyone excusing a citizen for betraying his country.  Snowden may have (damage still largely unknown) been responsible for who knows what loss of life or potential damage to his own country.  He is a worm, a filthy traitor and should be dealt with as such.



The government has apparently excused Jonathon Pollard who sold more specific secrets directly to another country. Snowden revealed/confirmed the existence of data mining programs. Anyone who pays attention to technology or just observes what technology can do shouldn't have a hard time assuming the government would not  use that technology times 10 legally or illegally but also have the Cadallic plan when it comes to tech.

http://gosporttimes.com/2015/11/30/jonathan-pollard-convicted-spy-for-israel-released-from/


----------



## WhatInThe (Dec 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Not everyone CARES about having surveillance.... or feels any FREEDOM is compromised by it ladies...   I prefer that terror plots are caught and stopped much more than I care if DHS knows when I have a dentist appointment..    It's the world we live in.  Get over it...  The enemy is not fighting a traditional war... our defense has to be different too.



Europe has HAD much more comprehensive surveillance programs and one country had three attacks in less than one year. All that data has to properly and routinely analyzed. True the enemy is not fighting a traditional war which also means "traditional" cold war spy techniques including the use of technology might not work either. This is not an enemy with a uniform and set location like in the cold war. And contrary to popular belief they are/were smart enough to fool or elude many of those techniques.


----------



## QuickSilver (Dec 2, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Europe has HAD much more comprehensive surveillance programs and one country had three attacks in less than one year. All that data has to properly and routinely be analyzed. True the enemy is not fighting a traditional war which also means "traditional" cold war spy techniques including the use of technology might not work either. This is not an enemy with a uniform and set location like in the cold war. And contrary to popular belief they are/were smart enough to fool or elude many of those techniques.



Well then... since they are too smart for us and elude the surveillance techniques anyway..... why bother then..  Just let them talk amongst themselves.


----------



## Sid N (Dec 2, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Sid, you have much to consider.  In this day and age much harm can be done to the entire country and our allies by a person who through his employment has the ability to gain access to information that is classified as secret by revealing it to others. How can a person take it upon themselves knowing nothing of the reasons behind the classification of said information or the harm it can do to others reveal this to potential enemies?  Anyone who agrees with you or Snowden needs to learn why state secrets must be kept sacred.   I won't even attempt to bring logic to you as it results from   our killing those who behead innocents compared  to the accidental killing of innocents in bombing.  Study WW2 and find out what civilian death from bombing is all about.  War is not a game of precision.  It is you Sid who fails to see what's happening.



Do you think, that's what those family's think or feel about their families being killed ? Do you think they care that we 'say' that it was an accident or that we didn't mean to do it ? 

The question has been asked many times and it's a valid one. How would Americans feel if say Iranian drones killed somebody [they] claim is a legitimate target in oh...Austin ? How would the American people feel about anyone killed in that attack, especially say, a wedding party, a funeral procession ? 

What Snowden disclosed was not a real state secret. What he disclosed was that the US govt. had secretly taken upon itself, the power to electronically search anyone, anytime, anywhere in the world in conducting a war (undeclared) and in fact, only in the abstract. Such power was only secret because has been determined by the courts now...was unconstitutional. Snowden has put no solders or operation personnel in danger. 

Since 2011, the govt. before the American people and in congressional testimony, has continually lied straight through their teeth. In fact it was those very lies that inspired Snowden in the first place. Is this why the US fought in WWII ? I don't think so.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Dec 2, 2015)

NSA spying timeline, interesting to look before 2001.  For those interested.  https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline


----------



## WhatInThe (Dec 2, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> NSA spying timeline, interesting to look before 2001.  For those interested.  https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline



NSA guy Sept 12,2001 , individual constitutional rights no longer a consideration

Ironically I heard similar words to night with security experts whining for full unchallenged surveillance powers. They said something to effect sorry ACLU


----------



## Sid N (Dec 5, 2015)

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." 
Benjamin Franklin 

How quickly we forget. Oh and BTW, for those who say, "Well if you have nothing to hide.....?" Ok, then, everybody shut up and I mean EVERYBODY SHUT UP !! The people, the press and everybody on the Internet will now just...shut up !!

I mean after all, if you have 'nothing' to say.....well, then you won't mind not having a right to free speech...right ?


----------



## AZ Jim (Dec 5, 2015)

> What Snowden disclosed was not a real state secret


  He did disclose secret material, it wasn't up to him nor is it up to you to decide it should be released.  Much damage can be done by taking into your own hands the classified material of your country.  Snowden, a subcontracted employee had no right to make the information he obtained public.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 5, 2015)

I stand with Ben Franklin on this one. Also, it is our solemn duty to police our gov'ts when they continuously abrogate our rights in the name of some mythical security. That cat won't hunt in this instance. Govts always punish whistleblowers--

security is a blind. What it is truly about is an abuse of power. Transparency is frowned on ---the hoi polloi are too stupid to know what's  good for them/us dontcha know? Let the good ole boys/mandarins take care of you......Not!


----------



## WhatInThe (Dec 5, 2015)

I keep hearing more focus on the internet etc. in lieu of the California terrorist attack. And if we would've had NSA data mining it might of prevented it. WRONG. For starters I think the NSA data mining program just stopped or was supposed to shut down over the last week or two which in theory the NSA already had YEARS of data on the California killers. To top it off they're pretty sure they were in contact with known terror suspects so how come the known terror suspect's didn't have their calls/callers scrutinized.

Even if one has collected data there has to be a red flag in that data to trip a more aggressive investigation. They said this women terrorist presented no flags to this point. Same for the male. 

And anyone who doesn't think this type of program will come back on them in someway is wrong because it already has. The DEA has been found to be using,feeding or manipulating intelligence data for criminal investigations. One is supposed to able to face their accuser and there be probable cause to be investigated- subverted & disguised data is neither.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

Not only might there be a criminal investigation there's been more than one raid or warrant serving that has gone awry for the suspect and innocents.

Point being for the most part Snowden is a whistle blower because these programs go beyond information on the enemies of the country.


----------

