# Moving into the high mountains ?



## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Lately I have been considering moving into the high mountains. I'm thinking about having a few acres of heavily timbered land and hopefully on a mountain stream. 

I think I am still strong enough to build my own place IF I take it nice and slow. At my age, I don't need much space.  800 square feet should be enough.

I'd be living "off-the grid" so I'd need to be totally self sufficient. Maybe a big furry dog for company and a wood burning stove sounds like heaven to me. 

I find that I have less and less tolerance for living in the inner-city. Too many people for one thing; I absolutely hate crowds and having to wait on line for every little thing is frustrating and stressful. 

I know I'm pretty old to be doing this but there are definite advantages.  I long for the quiet of the forest. And I surely do miss fishing. The thought of being miles away from the nearest human has a strong appeal.

To be sure there are also disadvantages. If I fell and hurt myself I'd be way out of cell phone range so getting any help would present a problem. But the same thing could happen to me in my apt. 

Anyway at age 72, I have nothing to lose.

Have not yet made up my mind yet but one last challenge has an appeal. It would be like going back to the 1950's when things made sense.

God, how I hate the 21st century.


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## SifuPhil (Apr 8, 2018)

I give you a lot of credit for considering doing this - I know my own woodland isolation score is pretty low. 

Yes, it would be nice, but there are just a ton of possible drawbacks. Ask Gary - he could tell you stories ... 

What about just finding some small town somewhere, where there is still food/medical within a reasonable distance? You'd have the best of all worlds then, I'd think.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

The whole idea is to get as far away from people as possible. Where people are, crime and noise follows.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 8, 2018)

I would rent a mountain cabin/trailer and try the primitive life that you envision for a year before I set any bridges on fire.

I like the notion of that life but I have no illusions about the work involved and my own laziness, I would quickly tire of primitive living.

Good luck!


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I would rent a mountain cabin/trailer and try the primitive life that you envision for a year before I set any bridges on fire.
> 
> I like the notion of that life but I have no illusions about the work involved and my own laziness, I would quickly tire of primitive living.
> 
> Good luck!




Primitive sounds great to me. Like the old song says, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."


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## Mizzkitt (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler, I too hated the big city, but found when I moved to a small town I was not keen on that either. Any time you need something, and you will always need something you have to drive a long ways to get it. 

I suppose as long as you are happy with your own company you can be happy anywhere, whether isolated in your log cabin or isolating yourself amongst people by keeping to yourself.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Primitive sounds great to me. Like the old song says, "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."



I used to sing that song on my way to McDonald's, LOL!!!

For me primitive means going without cable.

Good luck!


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## Mizzkitt (Apr 8, 2018)

You bring up a good point Aunt Bea, isolated living can mean no phone line but you will be able to get satellite at that comes from the sky. No phone line can mean no internet.....ask me how I know.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Mizzkitt said:


> You bring up a good point Aunt Bea, isolated living can mean no phone line but you will be able to get satellite at that comes from the sky. No phone line can mean no internet.....ask me how I know.




Satellites require electricity. Where I am concerning going , there would be none.


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## ClassicRockr (Apr 8, 2018)

I'm way to much of a "people person" to live in isolation. I like talking, but then again, most folks on this forum already know that. BUT, both of us prefer living in a much small population that what's here. Obviously, small population means much less traffic and crime. I like going to a café, seeing folks I know and saying "Good Morning". Due to the size of the population here and amount of crime (in certain areas here), people here just plainly don't talk to anyone. The only people that say "Good Morning" is a waitress at a restaurant here. 

But, neither of us would want to live away from civilization. We both need a medical facility decently close, as well as grocery stores and other stores. About the time we'd hear a wolf or coyote howl, we be scared to dickens.


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## Vega_Lyra (Apr 8, 2018)

Far from the madding crowd….
Extremely appealing and dangerous.


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## Mizzkitt (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Satellites require electricity. Where I am concerning going , there would be none.



sooooo then how you going to visit us here? Maybe a library with internet access.

Bought a seasonal trailer last year that I was ready to sell the next day when I found out there was no internet. As far as my phone I can only get a signal if I stand in back of the trailer holding one foot in the air and the phone upwards acting as my own antennae. Trouble is that I have to do this standing in the middle of the road and some nut is always yelling at me to get off the road you idiot. Sheesh, some people think they own the road.

Either that or I have to walk down to where they dump the garbage .....neither are good choices. Being isolated is no picnic I tell you when there is an emergency.


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## JB in SC (Apr 8, 2018)

It's not all it's cracked up to be. Isolated without another person close enough to help in case of emergency is a poor choice. I know a few homesteaders in Montana, they raise a lot of their own food but have cars/trucks and reasonably close access to town, have solar and on grid power, they use efficient heat sources (it gets -30 a lot of days), and a good well. In most more rural states you only have to go a few miles out to find the solitude you desire.


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## IKE (Apr 8, 2018)

Back in the day, after the military and bouncing around overseas for several years, I could have been very content moving to a remote area and more or less living off the land so to speak but the woman that has been letting me hang around with her for the past 42 + years wasn't agreeable so that ended that idea.

When we finally did hang up our Sansonite and American Tourister's I even tried to sweet talk her into a place out in the country on about 20 or so acres but that was also a no go so we've always lived in town.

Luckily I've always been able to satisfy my craving for the outdoors and remoteness somewhat through my camping,  hunting and fishing trips which for the most part I've always done alone.

I swear, if that woman gets more than five miles away from a mall or Wally World she starts having withdrawal like symptoms.


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## rgp (Apr 8, 2018)

Frankly at advance age...I think it's a bad idea. If a person had established life of that style, in their younger years..That's one thing, but to up and do it now ? I'm not so sure. 

None of my business, just voicing opinion....If you decide to go ? I wish ya the best of luck & life.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 8, 2018)

Been there, done that in the mountains of Idaho.  We did have electric at our cabin but 28 miles one way to the store or doctor.  In the winter you were lucky to get out on the  feeder road to the highway, God help you then if you got hurt.  No neighbors to help ya, wood burner was great but the take a source of wood, lot's during winter.  We were at 8000 ft so it really got cold, -30 at the maximum.


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## treeguy64 (Apr 8, 2018)

I, too, have grown to hate the big city.  From Chicago, now Austin, last forty years.  I am looking at Cody, WY., but total isolation is not what I seek, and, at 72, I think it's a very bad way to go, for the op,  unless he's perfectly fine with passing away, unnoticed, in his isolation, at any given time.  That actually appeals to me, on a few levels, but I still have an inner voice telling me to stick to a more urban area, for now.  Another thing:  The op mentioned escaping crime.  Some of the most ghastly killings have occurred to folks living out in the middle of nowhere, so he better rethink that angle.  When you're alone, you're all alone, and those who seek out those in isolation know that even with a sizable armory, the isolated soon are vulnerable in their isolation.


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## Don M. (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Lately I have been considering moving into the high mountains. I'm thinking about having a few acres of heavily timbered land and hopefully on a mountain stream.



I hear ya...although, I don't know about moving to such a remote location.  15 years ago, we abandoned the crime, noise, and hassles of the big city, and moved to the country.  We have 40 acres of heavy forestland, and a nice little town about 3 miles away, with the essentials....and a good health clinic 10 miles away.  I think this move has been good for our health...both physical and mental, and I hope we can stay here for many more years.  About the only downside is the nearest hospital is 50 miles away, and as we age, we may have to move to a larger town if we can no longer maintain this place, and health needs dictate.  We have great services for communications...fibre optic for TV, phone and Internet...so we stay "connected" to the world, but only as "observers".  The kids/grandkids are all within an hours drive, so that helps.  We have great neighbors...about 20 families on 700+ acres...close enough to be a "community", but plenty of "space" between.  The local police reports usually consist of an occasional DUI arrest, and a couple of nuisance barking dogs up in town.  

Getting out of the city is a Plus....IMO...but there are many places to find some solitude without being isolated.


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## SifuPhil (Apr 8, 2018)

I'm reminded of Dick Proenneke and his "Alone in the Wilderness" documentary, where he moved into the Alaskan wilderness at age 51. 

But then, he moved back to California when he was 82.


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## helenbacque (Apr 8, 2018)

If I lived in San Diego and my soul needed a little solitude, I'd drive east 100 miles or so and enjoy the area around Anza Borrego Desert State Park.  No tall green mountains or big trees but interesting and beautiful scenery.  Mini badlands, desert flowers, glorious hiking trails and few people.  There are quirky little towns like upscale Borrego Springs to very un-upscale Salton City and neither are crowded.  Isolated but with facilities if you need them.  Look at Google maps. 

The park web site says there is still free primitive camping but since you are hearing impaired, that might be iffy.  And it's SoCal so weather is warm but there is usually low humidity so comfortable.

It's definitely not wilderness, tall mountains and big trees but you can certainly find solitude there.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

The place I'm thinking about is in the general vicinity of Lolo Pass National Forest.  I have driven though that area a few times and I was impressed with the majestic grandeur. Wow, talk about isolated. I recall seeing a sign on the side of the road that says, "Next gas, 108 miles"

That whole area is covered with many different National Forests and Indian reservations, but there are some areas still in private hands. And, oh yeah, the fishing is fantastic. Plenty of wild critters, also. Bear, wolves, badger, deer , elk, bald eagles .

There are places up there that have not changed one tiny bit since the dawn of time. 

I may get a rude awakening but I suspect that the Nez Perce Indians could steer me in the right direction. Lots of thinking and planning yet to do but it sounds like heaven to me.  Self sufficient man in the wilderness.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 8, 2018)

Well, I understand the urge.  At going on 82 I sure couldn't do it so more power to ya!!


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

Why not? I think it’s a FABULOUS idea and is something I’ve thought of doing also. 
City living sucks. It’s poluted! It’s busy! It’s loud! It’s hectic! It’s frustrating. 
Building your own 800 square foot cabin is the best thing I’ve heard you say so far. 
This would be great for your mind, body and spirit. You’d get a chance to feel like part of nature and your heart will thank you. 
A big furry dog is perfect. A nice wood stove. Chopping your own wood. Picking berries. Swimming. Hiking. 

I think as we age our life should get simplier. We should be where we want to live doing what we want to do. If this is what sings to your heart I say go for it.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Building your own 800 square foot cabin is the best thing I’ve heard you say so far.
> 
> I think as we age our life should get simplier. We should be where we want to live doing what we want to do. If this is what sings to your heart I say go for it.



800sf is HUGE in regard to cabin bulding
so is 660sf, and 400sf


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 8, 2018)

LOLO Pass area is beautiful, and definitely a wilderness area. Are you looking at the Idaho or the Montana side of the mountains ? 
It definitely gets a whole lot of snow and very cold in the winter time, especially high up in the pass. I think that they close the pass sometimes in the winter, over highway 12. I have worked in Pierce and Weippe during the winter, and the snow was very deep, and that is not even all of the way up the pass. 
I lived without power and water up in the north Idaho mountains, and it is something that I would not even want to try doing now at 73 years old.
 I was in my mid-50’s when I did it, and not far from a small town, and it was still hard. 
Unless you are just going out there to die (and I hope that you are not doing that, Traveler), then I think that it is a better plan to at least live on the outskirts of a small town, where you can get medical help if you need it, as well as to get supplies. 
Usually, you can find a rental fairly reasonable in remoter areas; so you would not have to live in town unless you wanted to, but you could still be close enough to go when you do need something.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

OK, everbody reading, contributing to this thread;
PLEASE READ THIS!!

I’ve teased, bugged, pestered Travy to the point of him putting me on ignore
(I really don’t blame him, but that’s not my point)
I have found myself caring for the man
And right now (probably ever) don’t really care about his views of which are pretty much in direct opposition to my line of thinking.
But
If
He is serious
He needs to just camp for a few days
Way out
Beyond camp grounds
Don’t take a bunch of stuff
Just things like matches, paper, a jug for water, a tent, a knife, a roofer’s hatchet/hammer, military breakdown shovel, some jerky, a pot (not MJ), a pail, a blanket, instant coffee (for times at rest), warm clothes, comfy boots, hooded coat

One can improvise with the above list
The pot can do many things beside heat water for coffee
The coat can do many many things besides using it as a pillow
He'll figger it out

anyway
Guarantee ‘the grandeur’ dissipates rather speedily 
It’s still there, it just loses visibility when doing necessary things like finding a place to poop, or a way to wash

A stream is nice
Camping by a stream, not so nice
You get visitors
Speaking of water, it’s heavy
Everthing ‘out’ is heavy

And if he still wishes to live out, off grid, I have much much more to contribute

I have flowered it up a bit in my diary thread, but emergency personnel is not the first thing to consider
Creating creature comforts, like shelter of course is primary
Building one?
Power tools, at our age is not primary, it’s mandatory
That’s why generators are a must
Generators are heavy

Propane becomes a must
Propane tanks are, you guessed it, heavy

Bottom line, if anyone here would give him a PM, please ask him if he’s just penning a whim, or serious.
And, if serious, give him your version of what you just read, not mentioning (that Kool-Aid drinking, leftist moron) me.
Otherwise, he’ll effing die

Oh, one more thing, the Native Americans, especially on reservations, generally hate whitey, and will probably hang him upside down for awhile, at least thru the impromptu festivities, in spite of his winning ways 
…..not kidding about the hate part

And whitey?
Most that come upon yer camp, don’t hate you. Yer not even up to hate.
They just want yer stuff.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Why not? I think it’s a FABULOUS idea and is something I’ve thought of doing also.
> City living sucks. It’s poluted! It’s busy! It’s loud! It’s hectic! It’s frustrating.
> Building your own 800 square foot cabin is the best thing I’ve heard you say so far.
> This would be great for your mind, body and spirit. You’d get a chance to feel like part of nature and your heart will thank you.
> ...




See my icon ? That's a photo of an Alaskan Malamute. He would be my 1st major purchase. I once had one named "Simba". he was a bit over 110 lbs and a magnificent animal. 
Oh, my. The stories I could tell you about him.  As a joke I put his name (Simba D. Wolfe) on the front door molding ' along with the rest of the artist community. Well, one of the room-mates had her checkbook stolen and somebody was writing checks all across America. One day the FBI came around seeking more info. My dog and I were sitting on the front porch  and I was talking to one of the agents. I called to Simba and you should have seen the look on that FBI guys face. He looked at me, then the dog, and then at the name plate near the door and back to me. He said, "Simba? You mean his is that name on the wall ?  OH, God. Down at the agency we have been trying, for the last week, to figure out what kind of nationality was Simba D. Wolfe".   (Simba D. Wolfe = Simba, "Da Wolf" )


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## Seeker (Apr 8, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> OK, everbody reading, contributing to this thread;
> PLEASE READ THIS!!
> 
> I’ve teased, bugged, pestered Travy to the point of him putting me on ignore
> ...



And food preservation.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> 800sf is HUGE in regard to cabin bulding
> so is 660sf, and 400sf



Ok Grizzly Gary. Whatever! :shrug: I haven’t scrutinized over the floor plan yet.


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## treeguy64 (Apr 8, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Why not? I think it’s a FABULOUS idea and is something I’ve thought of doing also.
> City living sucks. It’s poluted! It’s busy! It’s loud! It’s hectic! It’s frustrating.
> Building your own 800 square foot cabin is the best thing I’ve heard you say so far.
> This would be great for your mind, body and spirit. You’d get a chance to feel like part of nature and your heart will thank you.
> ...



I appreciate the romantics/idealists, in here.  If you think his life will get simpler, then I am relatively sure you've never done much primitive camping, in your time, as I have, both here and in Kenya.  As for his building his own cabin: His heart may actually attack him if he's planning on bringing down his own trees and trying to build a log cabin out of the same.  Trees are heavy, very, very heavy, and very dangerous to fell and process.  I am a Certified Arborist.  I do tree work practically every day, day in, day out.  I get monthly fatality reports that cover those in my profession and "civilians."  Monthly, about ten people die working in and on trees.  Many, many civilian deaths are older men who get the urge to fell a tree on their property.  They are usually found under the tree, dead.  If he's planning on having the wood trucked in, lots of luck with the costs that will quickly go sky high to an isolated area.  It's a nice idea, sure, but the practicality of it is just not there.  Hanging a string of fish, to dry in some smoke? Leaving out some of your organic garbage?  Getting a compost heap going?  Better have one HUGE, ferocious dog who's willing to die for you when the bears come to call.  Wolves may be not the best neighbors, either, although your dog may find the females "attractive, " at times, and disappear.  Shades of Jack London!  Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, here, but I've gone through the scenario, for myself, so I'm a bit more grounded in reality.


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## treeguy64 (Apr 8, 2018)

Seeker said:


> And food preservation.



Great stuff, you posted, from Gary.  Spot on.  I think the op, here, is simply in a mood.  I sure hope so, unless he is actually wanting to die, alone, in the wilderness, something I'll consider when I feel the time is right.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> Wolves may be not the best neighbors, either, although your dog may find the females "attractive, " at times, and disappear.  .


Simba ain't near big enough
A wolf pack, or even coyotes, in season, will call Simba out, sniff, mate, kill
If Simba is smart enough, he'll roll over and hope to be accepted


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> I appreciate the romantics/idealists, in here.  If you think his life will get simpler, then I am relatively sure you've never done much primitive camping, in your time, as I have, both here and in Kenya.  As for his building his own cabin: His heart may actually attack him if he's planning on bringing down his own trees and trying to build a log cabin out of the same.  Trees are heavy, very, very heavy, and very dangerous to fell and process.  I am a Certified Arborist.  I do tree work practically every day, day in, day out.  I get monthly fatality reports that cover those in my profession and "civilians."  Monthly, about ten people die working in and on trees.  Many, many civilian deaths are older men who get the urge to fell a tree on their property.  They are usually found under the tree, dead.  If he's planning on having the wood trucked in, lots of luck with the costs that will quickly go sky high to an isolated area.  It's a nice idea, sure, but the practicality of it is just not there.  Hanging a string of fish, to dry in some smoke? Leaving out some of your organic garbage?  Getting a compost heap going?  Better have one HUGE, ferocious dog who's willing to die for you when the bears come to call.  Wolves may be not the best neighbors, either, although your dog may find the females "attractive, " at times, and disappear.  Shades of Jack London!  Sorry to play Devil's Advocate, here, but I've gone through the scenario, for myself, so I'm a bit more grounded in reality.



Yes I have done primitive camping. I’ve been on many interior camping trips that have lasted weeks. Some have been with a canoe and some without. I’ve portaged with a canoe for miles at a time up and down small mountainous terrain. We brought our German Shepherd dog and I made her a back pack so she could carry her own food.
We have run into bears, wolves, coyotes, and other wildlife. I’ve fished and cooked my own food quite sufficiently. 
I’m excellent at building a fire and have plenty of outdoor skills to survive. 
I can cut down trees better than your average man could as well as saw and chop it. In fact I’m great at chopping wood. You’d be surprised what this woman can do. 
Im not ‘just’ a pretty face. 

There are more and more people opting for this type of lifestyle and end up loving it. Even Tiny Homes are increasing in popularity.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> I think the op, here, is simply in a mood.  I sure hope so, unless he is actually wanting to die, alone, in the wilderness, something I'll consider when I feel the time is right.


Understood
there's worse ways


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Simba ain't near big enough
> A wolf pack, or even coyotes, in season, will call Simba out, sniff, mate, kill
> If Simba is smart enough, he'll roll over and hope to be accepted




So true.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok Grizzly Gary. Whatever! :shrug: I haven’t scrutinized over the floor plan yet.



Yeah, the 800 sq. ft is perhaps a bit large. I may decide whittle that down a bit. But that would include an attached shed capable of holding 10 cords of firewood AND a bear proof locker for venison and other game/fish.

As for supplies, no problem at all. With a 4-wheel drive Dodge, wired with an alternator,  set up to produce 120 volt, I'd have all the power I'd need for power tools. I can cut one hell of a lot of lumber in only one hour.

For the short term, I already have a domed "North-Face" double walled, mountain tent rated for -40 degrees F. You'd be shocked at how much heat a sleeping malamute gives off during the night.  

And for protection, I already have a .45 cal Ruger pistol. For hunting, a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with either bird shot for pheasant or slugs (what we used to call Pumpkin balls) for deer and/or elk works perfectly. A lot of game in that area. All I need to do is have a valid hunting license and I'm good to go. 

Indians hating "whitey" ? No problem. In my personal experience, all over the world, when a guy treats people with kindness and respect, and he lives like they do, and does not "lord it over them" aka "The Ugly American" they can be great people. 

As for the exact location, Idaho vs Montana, it depends entirely on finding the right site.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

Don’t forget to swim with the Otters.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Indians hating "whitey" ? No problem. In my personal experience, all over the world, when a guy treats people with kindness and respect, and he lives like they do, and does not "lord it over them" aka "The Ugly American" they can be great people.
> 
> .



I so wish that were true

Native Americans, tribes I've come to know, are a great people

Sidling in with good intentions?

It don't just happen
I was accepted in the Taholah Tribe
Hunted with 'em
it took many trips when delivering equipment to finally get to do that
on their grounds
and
The elders may outwardly accept you
but that ain't nuthin'

.....never mind 

I've said too much

you got this

enjoy


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## Seeker (Apr 8, 2018)

I used to subscribe to a magazine called Backwoods Home, I would drool every time it came in the mail. Jackie Clay was my hero. Then reality set in and I knew I was way too old to take it on.

 I settle for what I have here on my little 22 acres. 

Things get harder as you get older. Fire wood becomes a major chore. Just to cut it you have to have all the working equipment, which takes maintenance and money. Sure you can cut a tree down with a chain saw but then you have to haul it to where you want it. Unless you cut it down right beside your wood pile, you need more equipment to transport it.(tractor, 4 wheeler with trailer).

 All require money. Gas cost, diesel cost, carburetors for chain saws cost. More than that it all takes physical strength.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I used to subscribe to a magazine called Backwoods Home, I would drool every time it came in the mail. Jackie Clay was my hero. Then reality set in and I knew I was way too old to take it on.
> 
> I settle for what I have here on my little 22 acres.
> 
> ...



yup
yup
and yup

Need that newish member Pete guy 'bout now


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> AND a bear proof locker for venison and other game/fish.
> 
> .



please show me a bear proof locker

I have yet to see one (I'm not being facetious)


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I used to subscribe to a magazine called Backwoods Home, I would drool every time it came in the mail. Jackie Clay was my hero. Then reality set in and I knew I was way too old to take it on.
> 
> I settle for what I have here on my little 22 acres.
> 
> ...




Yeah, you're right. The physical strength part is a bit worrisome.  Even though I'm 6'2" 200 lbs, at age 72 I'm not the man I used to be. Cutting 10 cords of wood is a HUGE task. And I'd have only 6 month of snow-free time to do it in. I think the 1st year I need to buy it already cut-up. Then all I'd need to do is rent a trailer and haul it into my site.


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## Gary O' (Apr 8, 2018)

Bottom line;
Travy, I can help you with this, I truly can, and will, step by step

it truly is a most beautiful experience
it *IS* hands dirty, bone breaking hard
disappointing at times
but
the rewards are truly great


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler, I don't blame you for wanting to get away from people and live out in nature, but at our age, especially if you have any type of health issues at all, I don't think it's a wise thing to do, especially all alone without at least one other person to help with the work, chores, etc.  We've done some remote tent camping when we were young in the Yukon and Northwest Territories and other areas of Canada and Alaska for a couple of months.  It was rough, we had little, but we were young and healthy and had quite the experience.  Now in our 60s, we wouldn't be doing such an isolated adventure, too physically strenuous with all the work and chores involved.

I think Don had a good idea of getting out of the busy city, but staying close enough to get food and other supplies every couple of weeks, you will need certain items to survive independently and medical care if needed, would be foolish not to consider all that.  Of course you'll do what you feel is right for you, but I suggest living in a cabin or small home, even a mobile home that's already set in place somewhere, instead of building from scratch.  That's heavy work for a young man, I don't think an older person should be attempting all that, a serious back or other injury and you'll be at a halt quickly.

I like nature and animals more than cities and people too, but I hate to think of anything bad happening to you, maybe you can settle on a place that's not so isolated and already set up for you?  Hoping you have a change of heart, although I do know where you're coming from.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

Nothing is carved in stone  ---- yet.  But, something calls to me.  I am the last surviving member of my clan and since there is no escaping reality, I well remember, "Do not go gently into that good night".


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## Catlady (Apr 8, 2018)

Traveler =  " I'm thinking about having a few acres of heavily timbered land and hopefully on a mountain stream."
Sounds like a dream, I could picture it as I read the above.  I once owned 160 acres just outside a small agricultural town.  I loved it but realized I'd be too scared to live in such isolation, and it could be dangerous health-wise and security-wise.  Why don't you compromise, at least in the first year or so?  Keep your place in the city (if you own your house) and see how you really like living that lifestyle, then make your final decision.  The biggest problem. in my book. is (like you said) being alone and getting hurt with no way of getting help.  Find a website with people practicing ''survival'' to get actual opinions about the experience.  One guy has been doing it for years and absolutely loves it, another started having a heart attack and could not get cell phone signals and decided the lifestyle was not for him.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 8, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I used to subscribe to a magazine called Backwoods Home, I would drool every time it came in the mail. Jackie Clay was my hero. Then reality set in and I knew I was way too old to take it on.
> 
> I settle for what I have here on my little 22 acres.
> 
> ...


Well look at you. Twenty two acres. Sweet! We get our wood from our property and 5 to 6 chords of wood delivered but in tree  form. We still cut it up without any major equipment. We have chains and those come alongs. We’ve got a small John deer tractor with a trailor along with a wheel barrel. In the winter we use tabogans to bring the wood in. 
I honestly love chopping wood. Its almost meditative. 

So you are a country girl too. That’s cool.


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## Catlady (Apr 8, 2018)

Don M. said:


> I hear ya...although, I don't know about moving to such a remote location.  15 years ago, we abandoned the crime, noise, and hassles of the big city, and moved to the country.  We have 40 acres of heavy forestland, and a nice little town about 3 miles away, with the essentials....and a good health clinic 10 miles away.  I think this move has been good for our health...both physical and mental, and I hope we can stay here for many more years.  About the only downside is the nearest hospital is 50 miles away, and as we age, we may have to move to a larger town if we can no longer maintain this place, and health needs dictate.  We have great services for communications...fibre optic for TV, phone and Internet...so we stay "connected" to the world, but only as "observers".  The kids/grandkids are all within an hours drive, so that helps.  We have great neighbors...about 20 families on 700+ acres...close enough to be a "community", but plenty of "space" between.  The local police reports usually consist of an occasional DUI arrest, and a couple of nuisance barking dogs up in town.
> 
> Getting out of the city is a Plus....IMO...but there are many places to find some solitude without being isolated.



Your place sounds great, you're having your cake and eating it, too.  LOL  Except for the hospital 50 miles away, everything else is great.


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## Traveler (Apr 8, 2018)

WOOD BURN OVEN/STOVE. not quite what i want but it is the BEst photo i could come up with on short notice. CAN YOU SMELL THE AROMA ? *​*


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## Seeker (Apr 8, 2018)

> So you are a country girl too. That’s cool.



Yes ma'am...


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 9, 2018)

Traveler,

This is a must-read for your new adventure.

The story of Sylvan Ambrose Hart.







You can also read quite a bit about him online.

Good luck!


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## Mizzkitt (Apr 9, 2018)

Question for Gary.....have you had moments where you have thought of moving back to the city or will you stay where you are till the end of your days? Do you have a wife, if so, could she manage without you should you go first.

Question for Traveler....what happens to the dog, you will bond and if you go first then would it join a wolf pack?

Lots to consider.


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## Traveler (Apr 9, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> Traveler,
> 
> This is a must-read for your new adventure.The story of Sylvan



Thank you. I'm always looking for a good read.




Mizzkitt said:


> Question for Traveler....what happens to the dog, you will bond and if you go first then would it join a wolf pack? Lots to consider.



Oh, there is no question the dog and I would bond.  As to want would happen to him if I go first, I don't know. It's possible I suppose that a female malamute might be allowed into the pack but very, very unlikely. A male malamute would be instantly killed by a wolf pack. 
You know, of course, that where I'm headed is only a short distance from Yellowstone Natl Park and there are many different wolf packs there. Not all of them stay put. Males, especially, are driven out of a pack occasionally and they then go wandering looking for a female.


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## Mizzkitt (Apr 9, 2018)

Traveler....I don't want to rain on your parade and it will be an interesting read should you decide to pursue this adventure.

I found out after the fact that it is not the life for all of us and I was one of the "us" and my summer place does have most of the modern conveniences, but I cannot deal with the isolation most of the time nor the lack of internet. I need the outside world. I am likely putting it up for sale this year after spending less than 3 months there last year....wanna buy cheap


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## Traveler (Apr 9, 2018)

Mizzkitt said:


> Traveler....I don't want to rain on your parade and it will be an interesting read should you decide to pursue this adventure.
> 
> I found out after the fact that it is not the life for all of us and I was one of the "us" and my summer place does have most of the modern conveniences, but I cannot deal with the isolation most of the time nor the lack of internet. I need the outside world. I am likely putting it up for sale this year after spending less than 3 months there last year....wanna buy cheap




Your summer place is in Ontario ?


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## treeguy64 (Apr 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Yes I have done primitive camping. I’ve been on many interior camping trips that have lasted weeks. Some have been with a canoe and some without. I’ve portaged with a canoe for miles at a time up and down small mountainous terrain. We brought our German Shepherd dog and I made her a back pack so she could carry her own food.
> We have run into bears, wolves, coyotes, and other wildlife. I’ve fished and cooked my own food quite sufficiently.
> I’m excellent at building a fire and have plenty of outdoor skills to survive.
> I can cut down trees better than your average man could as well as saw and chop it. In fact I’m great at chopping wood. You’d be surprised what this woman can do.
> ...



Excellent!  Then you know, full well, that it is very hard work to live a life where you must be intimately aware of your surroundings at all times, and maintain an environment where your safety is assured.  With that in mind, I find it quite odd that you would encourage a seventy-two year old man to take on such a life and do it in complete isolation!


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## treeguy64 (Apr 9, 2018)

This thread is almost starting to feel like troll work:  Perhaps the op is simply trying to keep it going by putting forth more and more of his "plans" that he may know will never actually be put into action.  With that in mind, I'm dropping out of it.  To the op:  If you actually go off and try to live the life you have detailed, here, I wish you the best.  Make sure your will is up to date and secure with a probate attorney.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 9, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> This thread is almost starting to feel like troll work: Perhaps the op is simply trying to keep it going by putting forth more and more of his "plans" that he may know will never actually be put into action. With that in mind, I'm dropping out of it. To the op: If you actually go off and try to live the life you have detailed, here, I wish you the best. Make sure your will is up to date and secure with a probate attorney.



Could be, we all have little dreams and fantasies that help us cope with our day to day life.  

What harm can it do either way?

Nothing wrong with gathering information and mulling over an idea before you actually stick a toe in the water.


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## Gary O' (Apr 9, 2018)

Mizzkitt said:


> Question for Gary.....have you had moments where you have thought of moving back to the city or will you stay where you are till the end of your days? Do you have a wife, if so, could she manage without you should you go first.
> 
> Question for Traveler....what happens to the dog, you will bond and if you go first then would it join a wolf pack?
> 
> Lots to consider.



Many many moments

Bought the property in '99

Started building in earnest around '05

My wife wanted to move here back then

I'm more of a realist, and knew in my heart of hearts I wasn't ready, if ever, to contend with the rigors of things
things like no showers
I love a shower
I could, in fact, spend most my waking hours in the shower
When we'd camp here, clearing areas to live, and especially when building, 
the second and especially third day of a long weekend, all I thought of was getting home and getting into the shower


Sometimes, right after getting here (250 mi trip thru the mountains with a trailer load of building materials and tools), I wanted to turn right around.
The mosquitos were incessant, thick, aggressive.
I thought Guangzhou had mosquitos, and they do, just not near as blood thirsty as these.

Also, after traveling thru what seemed just snow here and there thru the Cascades and into the flats, the snow seemed not too bad.
Until we got to our place  
Three or more feet of the stuff
Had to hike in from where folks quit plowing
With supplies on toboggans
Only to get to the cabin to find the board of OSB I'd so brilliantly propped against the cabin door to prevent drifting snow, was frozen solid into the ground
Good thing I had an axe....in the cabin....and a chain saw....in the cabin
My lady was undaunted
She climbed over downed trees, thru the snow, hauling everything, a smile on her face.
The next morning, after an evening of fitful frostbite prevention, sipping hot coffee, watching her doggedly burrow a path to a place to poop, I formed diplomatic ways in my mind of how I'd break it to her, we were going back home that morning.

The first few years, my wife, my lovely Lady was the inspiration, the instigator.

Now?
I'm going out feet first.

At present, I'm considering the what if's, mostly what if she becomes alone here, and creating little things (that are huge) in regard to day to day living.
Still, she would do well, no matter.
She scrimps more than even I do, and would be extremely content being snowed in for the winter, sipping pine needle soup near the fire with kerosene lanterns, or even candles, reading a book for entertainment.
Me? not so much.
That's why we have this;






That's how I'm posting now

But, hey, I'm getting ahead of myself, and this ain't even my thread


----------



## Keesha (Apr 9, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> Excellent!  Then you know, full well, that it is very hard work to live a life where you must be intimately aware of your surroundings at all times, and maintain an environment where your safety is assured.  With that in mind, I find it quite odd that you would encourage a seventy-two year old man to take on such a life and do it in complete isolation!



Traveler seems like a big boy who wears big boy pants. Do I think this is a ‘perfect’ plan as is. 
No! Of course not but I doubt that he has written his total plan out. 
Complete isolation with no connection to the outside world, ever, probably isn’t a good idea. 
Not being close enough to medical care probably isn’t a good idea either. There are prescription drugs to consider or if he seriously injures himself. How would he purchase his food and get it to his cabin. 
There is an entire list of things that need to be considered. 

So NO the plan definitely needs tweaking. Perhaps he could live closer to civilization and still have all the joys of living in the wilderness. I’d also consider doing a LOT of research before even considering something like this. Building his own place at 72 on his own is very dangerous. 

There are many things he needs to seriously consider. 
What I support is the fact that he wants to get out of the fast paced city life and settle for a simplified version of living. 

His vision of living isolated in the woods and my vision of living isolated in the woods most likely are worlds apart. 
My idea of this type of living would be closer to what Don M wrote. That’s sensible remote living BUT I also believe that traveler is an intelligent man and will eventually know where he needs to tweak his general idea.


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## Keesha (Apr 9, 2018)

Are you off grid O’ Gary? 
Your place is awesome.


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## Gary O' (Apr 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Are you off grid O’ Gary?




Yes
for three years now


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## Gary O' (Apr 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Are you off grid O’ Gary?
> Your place is awesome.





Gary O' said:


> Yes
> for three years now


I really gotta quit hogging this thread
Don't wanna steal Travy's thunder

If anyone has more questions for me in regard to my place, I'll gladly answer them in my diary thread

Cheers to Traveler and his new travels


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## Keesha (Apr 9, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> Could be, we all have little dreams and fantasies that help us cope with our day to day life.
> 
> What harm can it do either way?
> 
> Nothing wrong with gathering information and mulling over an idea before you actually stick a toe in the water.



Exactly. There’s nothing wrong with it and even if he never plans on doing this, who cares? It is a fun topic to discuss even if it never happens. Btw.... this wasn’t ‘my’ idea. 
 ********
Troll work? 
Perhaps just genuine excitement. Is that so bad? It is a discussion forum after all and we are all adults here.


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## rgp (Apr 9, 2018)

On other forums I read where others have considered the same thing...

 My thought always is...if they truly want to go off grid ? Why would they be on the forum talking about it ? And if they actually did go off grid...how long would they last without contact? 

We all get annoyed with people & the news, etc. But being absolutely alone & isolated is a whole different thing.


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## Gary O' (Apr 9, 2018)

rgp said:


> On other forums I read where others have considered the same thing...
> 
> My thought always is...if they truly want to go off grid ? Why would they be on the forum talking about it ? And if they actually did go off grid...how long would they last without contact?
> 
> We all get annoyed with people & the news, etc. But being absolutely alone & isolated is a whole different thing.



No truer words
with the exception of bantering it about on pertinent sites
Lotsa info out there one does not necessarily consider
saves time, money, even lives


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## Catlady (Apr 9, 2018)

Traveler, I agree with Keesha, your most ideal and practical plan would be something like DonM's.  If you buy 20-40 acres and situate your house in the middle of it, you won't have to see a soul unless you have to or want to.  And still be close to conveniences and groceries and medical help and be ''in the grid'' when you need it.  And I don't know why people call living off the grid the simple life, it sounds like a lot of hard and dirty work to me.  And you also need to care what will happen to that beloved Malamute you intend to buy should you die first.  Anyway, good luck at whatever you end up doing.  Start reading the ''survivalist'' websites and blogs to get a real life idea of what it's like to live out in the wildernes.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 9, 2018)

rgp said:


> On other forums I read where others have considered the same thing...
> 
> My thought always is...if they truly want to go off grid ? Why would they be on the forum talking about it ? And if they actually did go off grid...how long would they last without contact?
> 
> We all get annoyed with people & the news, etc. But being absolutely alone & isolated is a whole different thing.



LOL, I see some logic in your post.

I think that being connected to the internet or having cell service is today's version of having a CB or HAM radio on steroids.

So much information, help and so many products available online that can ease the transition and help sustain a little bubble of light in the wilderness!


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## C'est Moi (Apr 9, 2018)

Traveler--some people are buying RVs of one sort or another and traveling while living off the grid.   The good part about that is, if you don't like where you are you can hook up and leave.   There are tons of BLM and other land for free "boondock" camping.   Something else to consider.      (Plus RVs come with all the comforts of home; just load up solar panels and have TV and a hot shower.)


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## Manatee (Apr 9, 2018)

"Heavily wooded" is where houses get burned down when there is a forest fire.

Will this plan work 12 years from now when you are my age?  It would not work for me.

I find I tend to have more and more things on the "needs fixing list" and less energy to do them.


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## Gary O' (Apr 9, 2018)

Manatee said:


> "Heavily wooded" is where houses get burned down when there is a forest fire.
> 
> Will this plan work 12 years from now when you are my age?  It would not work for me.
> 
> I find I tend to have more and more things on the "needs fixing list" and less energy to do them.



I understand what yer sayin', and it makes complete sense.

But, as for me, I'd much rather spend one year in 'heavily wooded' than twelve years in town.

My back yard;






to each
his own


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## Traveler (Apr 9, 2018)

Someone up thread mentioned not being able to take a hot shower in the wilderness. Not true. It may surprise people to know that I have a solar shower. It's really quite simple. Just a simple, large, strong, 5 gallon black plastic bag with a hose and showerhead. Fill it with ice cold mountain water and set it on the ground in the sun. Within 4 hours the water is actually scalding hot. Then just hang it from a tree branch and strip down naked, in all of natures glory, and revel in my oneness with nature's creation. . 




rgp said:


> On other forums I read where others have considered the same thing...
> 
> *My thought always is...if they truly want to go off grid ? Why would they be on the forum talking about it ? And if they actually did go off grid...how long would they last without contact?*
> 
> *We all get annoyed with people & the news, etc. But being absolutely alone & isolated is a whole different thing*.



Why would I be on a forum and talking about it ?  What a strange question.  Is there some reason why I should not talk about it ?
*
But being absolutely alone and isolated is a whole different thing. ?*  Different from what ? Different from being so profoundly deaf that I can not understand a word anyone is saying ? (Except for a man with a VERY deep voice) Weeks, even months go by when I don't say a single word to another living soul. You want to talk about isolated ? I could give you lessons about isolation. 



PVC said:


> Traveler,  If you buy 20-40 acres and situate your house in the middle of it, you won't have to see a soul unless you have to or want to.  And still be close to conveniences and groceries and medical help and be ''in the grid'' when you need it. * And I don't know why people call living* *off the grid the simple life, it sounds like a lot of hard and* *dirty* *work to me.* * And you also need to care* *what will happen to that beloved Malamute you intend to buy should you die first.*  Anyway, good luck at whatever you end up doing.  Start reading the ''survivalist'' websites and blogs to get a real life idea of what it's like to live out in the wildernes.



Hard work ? Yes, but I've never been afraid of hard work. Dirty ? Never ! Living in the midst of a stinking city is MY idea of "dirty".

And why would you assume I don't care about the dog? Besides what is the alternative ? No dog for simple companionship ?



C'est Moi said:


> Traveler--some people are buying RVs of one sort or another and traveling while living off the grid.   The good part about that is, if you don't like where you are you can hook up and leave.   There are tons of BLM and other land for free "boondock" camping.   Something else to consider.      (Plus RVs come with all the comforts of home; just load up solar panels and have TV and a hot shower.)




RVing ? Been there done that. In 1992 I purchased new 30 ft RV with all the trimmings. It was some fun, at first, but I found that getting a combined 50 feet of RV and tow vehicle into the deep woods, *and up a fire trail*, is extremely difficult. And THEN finding a place to turn around can be a hopeless situation. Mostly I ended up staying at over-priced RV parks $35/night where I was crammed up against my neighbors, cheek to jowl. Yuck !

My sense of joy comes from being totally immersed in nature, from being in a place where the closest human is 25 miles away. Just me, the animals, the tall trees gently swaying in the wind, and an ice cold mountain stream crashing down the mountain. 

I don't know if this is going to make sense to anyone, but when I am deep in the dark green forest, I feel part of the natural world. It is humbling and I feel a very small part of something infinitely grander than human "society". It's not that I like people less, it's that love nature more. 

Will I actually do it ? All I know for sure is that I really want to do it. However, kind, compassionate people, like Sea Breeze, have give me pause.


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## Catlady (Apr 9, 2018)

Traveler = "And why would you assume I don't care about the dog? Besides what is the alternative ? No dog for simple companionship ?"

I never said you would not care about the dog.  From what you've said I can tell you love dogs, especially wolf-types like Malamutes (one of my favorites).  I made my comment because you said previously that a dog would be killed by wolves instead of assimilating him into the pack.  If you die and he's out in the wilderness, he will come to no good end, through no choice of his own = you brought him there.  If you want to take the chance of dying alone without available help, that is your choice and prerogative, but why make the dog pay for your choice?  And by the time that dog is old enough to die (about 15) you will be about 88 or so, I doubt you would be able to live such a primitive life past 85.  Anyway, I'm just thinking of the dog you will be imposing your lifestyle on.  He will be the innocent without a choice.


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## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

*PVC, GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK ! You're making me crazy. Animals don't get a "choice" about anything. They are animals NOT people.  When I buy the Malamute, does he have a "choice" in my decision to buy him ? *

In any event all we can to is love and care for our pets to the best of our abilities. And in the case of the Malamute he would being living a dogs dream come true. For the 1st few weeks he would not be allowed to roan free at will. When I believe he knows where he lives, and has marked his turf, I will allow him to wander around and take care of his doggy desires. Believe me when I say that dogs know exactly where the good food is, and they will always return to the food. 

If I stay in the city, alone in my apartment, and I have a pet, and I then drop dead in my tracks, the pet would also die LONG BEFORE anyone found my rotting corpse. So, according to YOU, I should not have any pet.

(shakes head and throws up hands in surrender).

Signed, "too old to own a pet."


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## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Someone up thread mentioned not being able to take a hot shower in the wilderness. Not true. It may surprise people to know that I have a solar shower. It's really quite simple. Just a simple, large, strong, 5 gallon black plastic bag with a hose and showerhead. Fill it with ice cold mountain water and set it on the ground in the sun. Within 4 hours the water is actually scalding hot. Then just hang it from a tree branch and strip down naked, in all of natures glory, and revel in my oneness with nature's creation. .
> .


This is where the ignore feature is not good for the OP
We had one
They are in the overall realm of pathetic
Doubt Travy has one, or has tried the one he has

'just hang it from a tree branch';
5 gallons of water is around 42 lbs

just hanging a bulky sloshy 'scalding hot' 42 lb bag of water
.....from a tree branch.... would be quite the adventure

Would a friend of Travy please PM him on this?
Not to caution him, but to request he makes an instructional video

Oh, and suggest stripping down naked first
it'll go viral on youtube


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## SifuPhil (Apr 10, 2018)

I wondered about the mechanics of a solar shower. Do you fill it on the ground then lug it up the tree, or do you hang it from the tree first, then fill it a cup-full at a time? 

I'd just warm it up on the ground then take a sponge bath. Seems like it would be easier. 

Being a born-and-bred New Yorker, the only outdoor shower I've ever taken was at Coney Island. layful:


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## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I wondered about the mechanics of a solar shower. Do you fill it on the ground then lug it up the tree, or do you hang it from the tree first, then fill it a cup-full at a time?
> 
> I'd just warm it up on the ground then take a sponge bath. Seems like it would be easier.
> 
> Being a born-and-bred New Yorker, the only outdoor shower I've ever taken was at Coney Island. layful:



actually, just setting half gal milk or juice jugs in the sun a few hours is better
soap up
pour on
repeat

the puny 'showerhead' on the 'solar shower' is a complete, not so funny, joke

if one is given to water induced masochism, I highly recommend it


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## ClassicRockr (Apr 10, 2018)

Even though what Traveler wants to do is definitely NOT what we’d do, I totally support him in what he wants.

As far as the dog goes, I’m a dog lover as well, but (again) totally understand what he is saying. Dog’s have very little-to-no choice at all on what happens to them. Although, if a dog doesn’t like how it’s being treated, it could run away from home.....but that’s about it.

Actually, wife and I have got quite a bit of criticism for wanting to move away from Florida. We listen, but don’t listen as well.


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## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Even though what Traveler wants to do is definitely NOT what we’d do, I totally support him in what he wants.
> 
> As far as the dog goes, I’m a dog lover as well, but (again) totally understand what he is saying. Dog’s have very little-to-no choice at all on what happens to them. Although, if a dog doesn’t like how it’s being treated, it could run away from home.....but that’s about it.
> 
> Actually, wife and I have got quite a bit of criticism for wanting to move away from Florida. We listen, but don’t listen as well.



I too agree with Traveler's thoughts, desires
Totally understand
Just don't like seeing the ol' boy go off half cocked

'tis a fun mental adventure, however

and that is oftentimes the beginning of things

and, hey, he seems to have enough dough to try it, go 'well, crap', travel back to town


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## IKE (Apr 10, 2018)

I've used a sun shower quite a bit on fishing and hunting trips and I've taken one to the NWT several times when fishing at remote outposts.

I'd have a rope tied to the sun shower and the other end pre-thrown over a tree branch, fill the shower, hoist up and then tie off the rope to the tree.

Because of possible cloudy days I never depended on Mother Nature to warm the water......I'd always heat a large coffee pot or two of water on the fire and pour that in the bag on top of the cold water that I'd already put in the bag.

With the sun shower you quickly learn to conserve water and to not lollygag......get wet, turn off water flow.....soap up and then turn the water back on and quickly rinse.

There is nothing like a long hot shower at home but a sun shower works well enough to keep a person from becoming skunkish when outdoors.


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## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

IKE said:


> There is nothing like a long hot shower at home but a sun shower works well enough to keep a person from becoming skunkish when outdoors.



true enough

I can see where serious, hike in camping/fishing, it would come in handy.
And packing that wouldn’t be an issue.
It would be a luxury
I took collapsible water bags

Living here, in sun country, the thing was just too much procedure for the yield.
Half gallon jugs with hot, sun heated water proved quite worthy
It is incredibly amazing how hot water can get just being in the sun for a couple hours


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## Big Horn (Apr 10, 2018)

Satellite phone works everywhere so placing an emergency call isn't a problem.  You can buy a solar charger or a hand charger.  However, cell phones work in most areas.

It won't be -30 many days if ever.

You will probably need to buy a minimum acreage to avoid being in a subdivision.  It's 40 acres where I live.  There may be a minimum building size.  Few states allow outhouses so will need a septic system.  You can drill a well or haul water.  Hauling water is cheap if you have your own truck, very expensive if you have it delivered.

There are no building codes in my county except the septic system.  That's a state code.

You may be able to find one acre that's grandfathered with or without a structure.  If it's adjacent to BLM or forest service land it could be a good place to live.  Most really remote land is government-owned.  That's why Aspen, Jackson, and similar places are often very expensive.  Figure one million per acre or more.  There"s little private land in those areas.

There's no crime where I live because the area ranges from upper middle class up.  Property size is from about twenty acres (grandfathered) up to several thousand deeded acres (rare).  Median price for homes is about 800k.  That excludes ranches.  I have both electric service and telephone with DSL.

There's cheaper land on the flats which can be very remote.  Much of it is isolated in winter.

Wyoming has no state income tax or business tax.  Sales tax is at most 5%.  Real estate tax averages about 1/2 of 1% of market value.  You could buy land and build a house for under 100k in many areas.  That excludes the cost of a well.  Mountain property, as I said, costs more.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 10, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> I wondered about the mechanics of a solar shower. Do you fill it on the ground then lug it up the tree, or do you hang it from the tree first, then fill it a cup-full at a time?
> 
> I'd just warm it up on the ground then take a sponge bath. Seems like it would be easier.
> 
> Being a born-and-bred New Yorker, the only outdoor shower I've ever taken was at Coney Island. layful:



If you have a box of baking soda you can get cleaned up with about a 1/2 gallon of water.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/sponge-bath-zmaz81mazraw


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> If you have a box of baking soda you can get cleaned up with about a 1/2 gallon of water.
> 
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/sponge-bath-zmaz81mazraw




good article

actually, great article


----------



## SifuPhil (Apr 10, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> If you have a box of baking soda you can get cleaned up with about a 1/2 gallon of water.
> 
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/sponge-bath-zmaz81mazraw



Interesting. Thanks, Bea. 

I remember reading _Mother Earth News_ before they went corporate.  That's when I switched to _Backwoods Home_.


----------



## Catlady (Apr 10, 2018)

A forum for those who have a desire to live like a Neanderthal.  Not my cup of tea, but I like reading it.
http://www.survivalistboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Lately I have been considering moving into the high mountains. I'm thinking about having a few acres of heavily timbered land and hopefully on a mountain stream.
> 
> I think I am still strong enough to build my own place IF I take it nice and slow. At my age, I don't need much space.  800 square feet should be enough.
> 
> ...



That sounds terrific.  I would love it.

Perhaps you can find a place already built which would help or a place you can remodel by yourself a little at a time.

Good Luck.  Would it be possible to have cell phone or other means of communication in case of emergency?


----------



## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> RVing ? Been there done that. In 1992 I purchased new 30 ft RV with all the trimmings. It was some fun, at first, but I found that getting a combined 50 feet of RV and tow vehicle into the deep woods, *and up a fire trail*, is extremely difficult. And THEN finding a place to turn around can be a hopeless situation. Mostly I ended up staying at over-priced RV parks $35/night where I was crammed up against my neighbors, cheek to jowl. Yuck !
> 
> My sense of joy comes from being totally immersed in nature, from being in a place where the closest human is 25 miles away. Just me, the animals, the tall trees gently swaying in the wind, and an ice cold mountain stream crashing down the mountain.
> 
> I don't know if this is going to make sense to anyone, but when I am deep in the dark green forest, I feel part of the natural world. It is humbling and I feel a very small part of something infinitely grander than human "society". It's not that I like people less, it's that love nature more.



Traveler, we'd never buy one of those monsters, the places we've gone to over the years are too remote, accessed by dirt roads only, way back when tent camping we'd drive as far as we could and hike or take our aluminum boat with motor upriver till we found a good place we wanted to camp.  These days we have the rig in the picture, it's not for winter camping, which is okay because we never had a desire to camp in the wilderness in winter snow and freezing temps.  But we have 40g of propane and 40g of fresh water to use before we need to find a town for refills.  We get away from people, we rarely if ever have used a campground and wouldn't set foot in an RV park.

I couldn't agree more, the point of getting out in the woods and away from people is appreciating the beauty of nature.  We don't have TV, computers, cell service or even radio reception in some areas we camp in.  It's refreshing to get away from the nonsense that surrounds us in everyday life, and gives a reminder of what peace is and what this beautiful earth and heavens are all about, in town sometimes you can't even see all the stars because of the artificial lighting.

As far as a dog, there is no way I wouldn't go camping or live in the woods, especially alone, without a dog, by the way, years back we did camp with our Malamute.  Staying clean is easy if you're near a stream, river or lake.  If the water's too cold you just heat it up before using it.  I know you've traveled around the world and are quite capable of doing something like this if you really want to, but I'm glad you're giving it a lot of thought before doing anything.  You're a smart man and not afraid of work, but as I've voiced my concern before, it all has to do with age for all of us at this time in our lives.  Whether you decide to do it or abandon the plan, I'll be happy for you....just a bit more concerned if you choose the former.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Apr 10, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> That sounds terrific.  I would love it.
> 
> Perhaps you can find a place already built which would help or a place you can remodel by yourself a little at a time.
> 
> Good Luck.  Would it be possible to have cell phone or other means of communication in case of emergency?



I agree Camper, already built is better, that way you concentrate your efforts on other things.  He'd have to get a satellite phone because cell phones generally don't get a signal in the woods away from town.  We used to have an old analog satellite phone, but currently don't have one, may buy one in the future.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Apr 10, 2018)

If the property has an access road a readymade cabin would be another option.

These Amish built structures have become popular with hunters and snowmobilers in this area. The builder prepares the site with a simple crushed stone foundation and the cabin is offloaded into place. In this area you can buy an unfinished shell or a completely finished cabin.


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 10, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> actually, just setting half gal milk or juice jugs in the sun a few hours is better
> soap up
> pour on
> repeat
> ...



One of those black rain barrels would do the trick and could work double duty catching rain water.

All you need is a siphon hose. To rinse yourself off. Showers waste water.  A hose is better.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

IKE said:


> View attachment 50828View attachment 50832



Hey, Ike. That's exactly the one I have. Thanks for posting that.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

HI BIG HORN,  THERE IS ANOTHER WAY TO GET/STORE WATER THAT I CAME UP WITH.  MY TRUCK IS WIRED UP SO THAT I CAN HAVE 120 VOLT A/C.  IF I AM RIGHT CLOSE TO A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM, ALL I NEED TO DO IS BUY A USED 200-300 GAL WATER TANK AND BURY IT ( so it doesn't freeze in the winter). IT IS THEN A SIMPLE MATTER OF USING A PORTABLE WATER PUMP. TOSS ONE HOSE INTO THE STREAM, CONNECT IT TO THE PUMP AND THEN A 2nd HOSE THAT RUNS TO THE WATER TANK. START THE TRUCK (to get the juice flowing) TURN ON THE PUMP AND VIOLA, FULL WATER TANK. 

THEN, IT IS A SIMPLE MATTER OF USING A D/C WATER PUMP (like the kind used in RV's) TO PUMP WATER, ON DEMAND,  INTO THE HOUSE. THAT PUMP IS POWERED BY A 12VOLT MARINE/RV, DEEP CYCLE BATTERY WHICH GETS CONSTANTLY RECHARGED BY A SOLAR PANEL. 

FREE WATER, FREE ELECTRIC, NO LABOR !   THE OLD BOY IS NOT ENTIRLEY DAFT, JUST YET.


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> HI BIG HORN,  THERE IS ANOTHER WAY TO GET/STORE WATER THAT I CAME UP WITH.  MY TRUCK IS WIRED UP SO THAT I CAN HAVE 120 VOLT A/C.  IF I AM RIGHT CLOSE TO A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM, ALL I NEED TO DO IS BUY A USED 200-300 GAL WATER TANK AND BURY IT ( so it doesn't freeze in the winter). IT IS THEN A SIMPLE MATTER OF USING A PORTABLE WATER PUMP. TOSS ONE HOSE INTO THE STREAM, CONNECT IT TO THE PUMP AND THEN A 2nd HOSE THAT RUNS TO THE WATER TANK. START THE TRUCK (to get the juice flowing) TURN ON THE PUMP AND VIOLA, FULL WATER TANK.
> 
> THEN, IT IS A SIMPLE MATTER OF USING A D/C WATER PUMP (like the kind used in RV's) TO PUMP WATER, ON DEMAND,  INTO THE HOUSE. THAT PUMP IS POWERED BY A 12VOLT MARINE/RV, DEEP CYCLE BATTERY WHICH GETS CONSTANTLY RECHARGED BY A SOLAR PANEL.
> 
> FREE WATER, FREE ELECTRIC, NO LABOR !   THE OLD BOY IS NOT ENTIRLEY DAFT, JUST YET.


There are no riparian rights in the west.  Someone owns that water.  You can't take it nor can you impound rainwater.  That's theft.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

big horn said:


> there are no riparian rights in the west.  Someone owns that water.  You can't take it nor can you impound rainwater.  That's theft.



Who owns it ?  The federal govenment ?  If someone tries to stop me from collecting rainwater they're going to have a fight on their hands. How dare they tell me that I can't have any water ?

I'm not into religion, but for a lack of better words, I have an absolute "god given right" to rainwater. The same as I do to breathe air.


----------



## RadishRose (Apr 10, 2018)

Travy, you didn't even get there yet and already you're looking for a fight.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Travy, you didn't even get there yet and already you're looking for a fight.




When my freedom is taken away by the government or some filthy rich S.O.B. , you bet I'll fight. People who will not fight, quickly become slaves.


----------



## rgp (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Who owns it ?  The federal govenment ?  If someone tries to stop me from collecting rainwater they're going to have a fight on their hands. How dare they tell me that I can't have any water ?
> 
> I'm not into religion, but for a lack of better words, I have an absolute "god given right" to rainwater. The same as I do to breathe air.




Regarding rainwater, as I understand it?...it has to do with reservoir size. No one in certain areas is permitted to collect..Period....So the size of the reservoir doesn't matter . That stops any & all attempts [of] collecting...allowing the water to flow freely for everyone. Everyone is of course permitted then to go to the natural reservoir.... pond, lake,stream,river...etc & get their water there.

This stops damning on private property...and I believe it includes private man dug ponds as well?


----------



## RadishRose (Apr 10, 2018)

Interesting topic, it deserves it's own thread why not start one Travy  for *Riparian* *Rights *?


----------



## Roadwarrior (Apr 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> Regarding rainwater, as I understand it?...it has to do with reservoir size. No one in certain areas is permitted to collect..Period....So the size of the reservoir doesn't matter . That stops any & all attempts [of] collecting...allowing the water to flow freely for everyone. Everyone is of course permitted then to go to the natural reservoir.... pond, lake,stream,river...etc & get their water there.
> 
> This stops damning on private property...and I believe it includes private man dug ponds as well?



https://www.rt.com/usa/rain-water-harrington-oregon-439/


----------



## ClassicRockr (Apr 10, 2018)

Put into your Search area online in internet: is it legal to collect rainwater?

In most States it is legal. Yes, I read “it is legal, in most States”

The U.S. Government would like to control rainwater, but that hasn’t happened yet.

Perhaps someone will find something different, but, until then.....


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> Regarding rainwater, as I understand it?...it has to do with reservoir size. No one in certain areas is permitted to collect..Period....So the size of the reservoir doesn't matter . That stops any & all attempts [of] collecting...allowing the water to flow freely for everyone. Everyone is of course permitted then to go to the natural reservoir.... pond, lake,stream,river...etc & get their water there.


Not in the dry west.  Water is treated as any other resource.    Some person, corporation, or government entity owns it.  Municipal water supplies, agricultural water, and drinking water are all included.

Some years ago Boulder, Colorado, a city that owns a glacier and has plenty of drinking water, refused to sell it to another city to relieve their costly bills and poor water quality.  They were called plenty of names, but no one ever disputed their ownership. 



Traveler said:


> Who owns it ?  The federal  govenment ?  If someone tries to stop me from collecting rainwater  they're going to have a fight on their hands. How dare they tell me that  I can't have any water ?
> 
> I'm not into religion, but for a lack of better words, I have an  absolute "god given right" to rainwater. The same as I do to breathe  air.


You have no right to anyone else's property.  How would you like it if people upstream on the Colorado River took water as they wished?  Would you like them to impound the snow melt?  What would you and your fellow Californians drink?

Don't believe me?  Ask a lawyer.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

So, Big Horn, are you saying that the government owns the sky. The clouds ? And the rain that falls from those clouds ?


----------



## RadishRose (Apr 10, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Interesting topic, it deserves it's own thread why not start one Travy  for *Riparian* *Rights *?



..then again, maybe not  nthego:


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> ..then again, maybe not  nthego:


.

Please, my name is Traveler, not travy. I don't know who stated that, but I wish it would stop.


----------



## RadishRose (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> .
> 
> Please, my name is Traveler, not travy. I don't know who stated that, but I wish it would stop.



I think it was Gar. But ok.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> I think it was Gar. But ok.



Ah, Gary. I might have known. Thank you.


----------



## helenbacque (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> HI BIG HORN,  THERE IS ANOTHER WAY TO GET/STORE WATER THAT I CAME UP WITH.  MY TRUCK IS WIRED UP SO THAT I CAN HAVE 120 VOLT A/C.  IF I AM RIGHT CLOSE TO A FRESH MOUNTAIN STREAM, ALL I NEED TO DO IS BUY A USED 200-300 GAL WATER TANK AND BURY IT ( so it doesn't freeze in the winter). IT IS THEN A SIMPLE MATTER OF USING A PORTABLE WATER PUMP. TOSS ONE HOSE INTO THE STREAM, CONNECT IT TO THE PUMP AND THEN A 2nd HOSE THAT RUNS TO THE WATER TANK. START THE TRUCK (to get the juice flowing) TURN ON THE PUMP AND VIOLA, FULL WATER TANK.
> 
> Remember to purify that 'fresh mountain' water.  Can be source of some nasty microbs
> 
> ...



Be sure to purify that fresh mountain water.  Any can be full of nasty micro thingies


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

helenbacque said:


> Be sure to purify that fresh mountain water.  Any can be full of nasty micro thingies



Yeah. I thought about that. An American buddy of mine, a retired U.S. Army Sgt Major, who is now living in The Philippines, says that he can tell me everything I need to know about how to purify water.


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> .
> 
> Please, my name is Traveler, not travy. I don't know who stated that, but I wish it would stop.



I considered it rather endearing

(sigh)


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

I have been reading the State of Idaho water rights laws.  The Idaho  water commission board clearly states that a property owner may divert water from a stream or well on his/her property for domestic purposes and/or for irrigation, live stock watering, etc. 

So, it appears that is one problem out of the way. I would, naturally, confer with an attorney prior to buying any Idaho land.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

treeguy64;8022   As for his building his own cabin: His heart may actually attack him if he's planning on bringing down his own trees and trying to build a log cabin out of the same.  Trees are heavy said:
			
		

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> It was never my intention to fell timber to build a LOG cabin. However, if I needed to clear a small spot for a building site I am more than capable of doing that, as I once worked in Northern California (Arcata) working for a land surveyor. For 2 yrs I was married to a Briggs and Stratton


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> It was never my intention to fell timber to build a LOG cabin. However, if I needed to clear a small spot for a building site I am more than capable of doing that, as I once worked in Northern California (Arcata) working for a land surveyor. For 2 yrs I was married to a Briggs and Stratton



I'm concerned with the 'Briggs and Stratton' part in regard to.....chain saws?
First I ever heard Briggs engine and tree falling, which usually involves chainsaws, in the same paragraph 


New one on me


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 10, 2018)

Y’know, this ignore thing is pretty cool
I can interject my own third person commentary

However, in a nutshell, I do believe Traveler has this
Sure, he’ll make mistakes
But he’s a thinking guy
Everbody I talked to that had done it, before we moved here, said pretty much the same thing, ‘it takes at least two seasons to begin to get it together’

What I hadn’t fully comprehended was the ‘begin to’ part
There’s do overs, start overs
They take a bit more time
But during that time, the smugness changes to grim determination
To not repeat

Anyway 

I fully believe Traveler will have this if he does it.
And wish him all the best
(hope to hell he can savor each moment, even the bad ones)


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 10, 2018)

There are plenty of properties for sale.  Take a look.  You can find out about water laws after you see if any Idaho properties appeal to you.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=idaho+mountain+proprty+for+sale&t=hh&ia=web


----------



## rgp (Apr 10, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> Not in the dry west.  Water is treated as any other resource.    Some person, corporation, or government entity owns it.  Municipal water supplies, agricultural water, and drinking water are all included.
> 
> Some years ago Boulder, Colorado, a city that owns a glacier and has plenty of drinking water, refused to sell it to another city to relieve their costly bills and poor water quality.  They were called plenty of names, but no one ever disputed their ownership.
> 
> ...





    Apparently I have something wrong , or misunderstood...That is why I started with "As I understand it"


----------



## Traveler (Apr 10, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> There are plenty of properties for sale.  Take a look.  You can find out about water laws after you see if any Idaho properties appeal to you.
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=idaho+mountain+proprty+for+sale&t=hh&ia=web




Big Horn, I appreciate your posting the property web site. I truly do.  Ultimately the property I want will most likely be found by nosing around, talking to the average guy, reading small local newspapers, and those little (oh, hell I can't think of the name of those little papers that list stuff for sale) but you know what I mean. Sometimes there are "bank owned" properties they are just dying to get rid of. You know, the kind of property that few other people want because it is only a bare bones place. Or, because it's too far off the beaten path.

But I'd still prefer to build my own place. If that's not possible then....

People these days are afraid of a little sweat and hard work. I'm not.  I love it.

The 1st house I bought, I paid only 29 K for. I renovated it myself and sold it for 132K, only 2 yrs later. All in my spare time.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Apr 11, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Big Horn, I appreciate your posting the property web site. I truly do.  Ultimately the property I want will most likely be found by nosing around, talking to the average guy, reading small local newspapers, and those little (oh, hell I can't think of the name of those little papers that list stuff for sale) but you know what I mean. Sometimes there are "bank owned" properties they are just dying to get rid of. You know, the kind of property that few other people want because it is only a bare bones place. Or, because it's too far off the beaten path.
> 
> But I'd still prefer to build my own place. If that's not possible then....
> 
> ...



You definitely sound like my brother. He absolutely loves getting dirty and hard work. Him and mechanic work and building things get along great. As for me, I'm totally different. With the way he works, nobody would ever believe the guy is totally retired.​


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 11, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Big Horn, I appreciate your posting the property web site. I truly do.  Ultimately the property I want will most likely be found by nosing around, talking to the average guy, reading small local newspapers, and those little (oh, hell I can't think of the name of those little papers that list stuff for sale) but you know what I mean. Sometimes there are "bank owned" properties they are just dying to get rid of. You know, the kind of property that few other people want because it is only a bare bones place. Or, because it's too far off the beaten path.
> 
> But I'd still prefer to build my own place. If that's not possible then....
> 
> ...


Banks hardly ever finance raw land.  The little papers still exist; we have a nice one here in addition to our local paper.  However, this is the day of the internet—for everyone.  I didn't link to a website.  I linked to the search results for mountain properties in Idaho.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 11, 2018)

It is entirely possible that I am living in the past.  All of the properties that I have seen thus far (at least in the west) are either cheap priced properties that are out on the plains, without a tree in sight or are ridiculously high priced wooded land. 

Whatever it takes, I just know that I've got to get out of the city. Too damn stressful for me. 

There must be somewhere I can live without being bothered by crime, big government bullies, that want to control every little thing I do, and far away from people.

I've always been a Travelin' man. 5 years in one spot seems like an eternity. What makes other people happy, bores me to death. Sure would be nice to have one last great challenge.


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 11, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It is entirely possible that I am living in the past.  All of the properties that I have seen thus far (at least in the west) are either cheap priced properties that are out on the plains, without a tree in sight or are ridiculously high priced wooded land.
> 
> Whatever it takes, I just know that I've got to get out of the city. Too damn stressful for me.
> 
> ...


You can have pretty; you can have cheap.  You just can't have them together.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 11, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> You can have pretty; you can have cheap.  You just can't have them together.




hahaha  Right you are.


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 13, 2018)

Flats can be as beautiful as mountains.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/d_N0J-4MlF8


----------



## Traveler (Apr 13, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> Flats can be as beautiful as mountains.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/embed/d_N0J-4MlF8




I suppose it's all a matter of taste.  As a young boy I grew up in the woodlands of up-state New York. Lots of rolling, steep hills, creeks, beaver dams and deer. At grade school level, I thought it was the wilderness. Ha. Little did I know. I remember at age 17, seeing the movie "How The West Was Won".  I was in awe. And I knew, from that instant, that I had to see the real mountains for myself. 

For a few years I lived high up in the Rockies, in a tiny town called Avon (which is now unrecognizable) just a few miles west of Vail, Colorado.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 13, 2018)

I have located a gorgeous piece of raw land. Only $14,000 with $300 down and only $109/month.

The only problem ? The only way possible to reach it is by float plane or ski plane in winter.  Deep in the heart of Alaska. hahaha


----------



## C'est Moi (Apr 13, 2018)

Can you see Russia from there?


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 13, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I have located a gorgeous piece of raw land. Only $14,000 with $300 down and only $109/month.View attachment 50950
> 
> The only problem ? The only way possible to reach it is by float plane or ski plane in winter.  Deep in the heart of Alaska. hahaha



Looks like Grizzly bear marsh

If so, not really for sale

They'd prolly take his money, however


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 15, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It is entirely possible that I am living in the past.  All of the properties that I have seen thus far (at least in the west) are either cheap priced properties that are out on the plains, without a tree in sight or are ridiculously high priced wooded land.
> 
> Whatever it takes, I just know that I've got to get out of the city. Too damn stressful for me.
> 
> ...



One can have complete freedom, privacy, peace, anywhere, even when confined

within one's mind


----------



## Traveler (Apr 23, 2018)

*First step. I have found the Malamute I want. And he is going to be HUGE when he grows up. The photo is him at 11 months old.*


----------



## ancient mariner (Apr 24, 2018)

Before you go off like Jeremiah Johnson, check out the Off the Grid vlogs on YouTube.  Some of the "loners' have gone "bonkers" in short order.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

ancient mariner said:


> Before you go off like Jeremiah Johnson, check out the Off the Grid vlogs on YouTube.  Some of the "loners' have gone "bonkers" in short order.




Thanks for your concern but I'll be just fine. I don't have any plan on living totally self-sufficient. Once/month I'll be going into a town for supplies. Besides, I'll have plenty to keep me busy. And a big Malamute to keep me company. 

In case you're wondering, part of the plan will be to have a solar powered D.C. system, for lights and such.  Actually, when I can get to a place where I never hear about society gone crazy, I should be in heaven.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Apr 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Thanks for your concern but I'll be just fine. I don't have any plan on living totally self-sufficient. Once/month I'll be going into a town for supplies. Besides, I'll have plenty to keep me busy. And a big Malamute to keep me company.
> 
> In case you're wondering, part of the plan will be to have a solar powered D.C. system, for lights and such.  Actually, when I can get to a place where I never hear about society gone crazy, I should be in heaven.



Now THAT sounds great to me!! You GO FOR IT!!


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Thanks for your concern but I'll be just fine. I don't have any plan on living totally self-sufficient. Once/month I'll be going into a town for supplies. Besides, I'll have plenty to keep me busy. And a big Malamute to keep me company.
> 
> In case you're wondering, part of the plan will be to have a solar powered D.C. system, for lights and such.  Actually, when I can get to a place where I never hear about society gone crazy, I should be in heaven.


This may be of interest to you.

http://www.survivalistboards.com/


----------



## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Now THAT sounds great to me!! You GO FOR IT!!




I have not yet decided exactly how self sufficient I want to be. Off the grid, yes. Absolutely. But I may decide to have a propane tank to run a refrigerator and a water heater. OR, I may up the cost a bit and go full solar. But that is darn expensive if I have it produce A/C and not just D/C


----------



## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> This may be of interest to you.
> 
> http://www.survivalistboards.com/




Thank you, Bighorn. I took a quick peek and it looks like a good site. I'll be reading it.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

The biggest problem is finding a parcel of land where the government will leave me alone. Especially the water part. I don't care what their laws are. If I have water crossing my land, I have a God given right to use a meager amount for my own needs. But I don't think it is going to be an insurmountable problem. They have to catch me first and that's going to be very difficult for them.


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> The biggest problem is finding a parcel of land where the government will leave me alone. Especially the water part. I don't care what their laws are. If I have water crossing my land, I have a God given right to use a meager amount for my own needs. But I don't think it is going to be an insurmountable problem. They have to catch me first and that's going to be very difficult for them.


Your neighbors will not agree.  They won't just report you to the government; they'll take whatever action they deem necessary.

I own agricultural land and water rights.  I own guns too.


----------



## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> Your neighbors will not agree.  They won't just report you to the government; they'll take whatever action they deem necessary.
> 
> I own agricultural land and water rights.  I own guns too.




I don't mean to argue with you BUT how can anyone deprive me of a little water ? Seems to me like a stacked deck favoring the wealthy.
Seriously. Am I not human ? Are you saying people would actually kill me over a tiny amount of water ?

If I wanted to damn the creek, that would be different, but that is not my intention. I just want to live as a free human. 

Actually kill me for a few gallons of water ?


----------



## Big Horn (Apr 24, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't mean to argue with you BUT how can anyone deprive me of a little water ? Seems to me like a stacked deck favoring the wealthy.
> Seriously. Am I not human ? Are you saying people would actually kill me over a tiny amount of water ?
> 
> If I wanted to damn the creek, that would be different, but that is not my intention. I just want to live as a free human.
> ...


It's not your water.  Try to take a tiny amount of my money (water rights cost money) and prepare to fight me to the death.  You can live as a free human being, but you cannot be a thief and expect to survive.


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## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> It's not your water.  Try to take a tiny amount of my money (water rights cost money) and prepare to fight me to the death.  You can live as a free human being, but you cannot be a thief and expect to survive.




So, it is a stacked deck in favor of the wealthy.   You would literally kill me over a tiny amount of water ?


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## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

I signed up for that site Bighorn gave me. I posted a question about the so-called "water-rights". The answer I got back said that rich men can indeed buy *ALL *the water and they will stop at nothing to keep poor people from having water to drink and cook with. They said that those rich men have bought off the government and they now OWN THE CLOUDS AND THE RAIN
Unfreakin' believable. I wonder if someday I'll have to pay a rich man to breathe the air.


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## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

It seems to me that* any law* that prohibits a human from thriving on his own land, is* an immoral law.* 

Look at it this way. In the western portion of the U.S., much of the land is federal property. (Natl Forests, Natl. parks, BLM etc). That means we, as citizens, own that land. Snow and rain fall on "our" land. The snow melts and the rain falls, and it runs off down the drainage. The water is a natural resource and is owned jointly by all of the citizens of America. It is, or should be, used for the enjoyment, and survival  of all.

It is my contention that everyone, every American, has a limited right to that water. What do I mean by a limited right ? Well, I mean that no group of rich Americans has any right to say, "that water is mine, no one else may use it". I also mean that no one has a right to dam the water. 

I contend that everyone who has the means to purchase a small parcel has an absolute right to free use of that water, PROVIDED he/she does not attempt to hog it all for himself. Also, he/she should not be allowed to use more water than is needed to survive on a most basic level. That means, water for drinking, cooking, bathing, washing clothes, and even a small family garden. 

What is my idea of a family garden ? It would be just barely enough for my own personal use. In other words not so large that I could sell produce, and make a profit. 

I don't need,or want, to own all of the water. I just want to survive in the country and live in peace.


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## Gary O' (Apr 24, 2018)

Big Horn said:


> Your neighbors will not agree.  They won't just report you to the government; they'll take whatever action they deem necessary.
> 
> I own agricultural land and water rights.  I own guns too.



many a western novel (Louis L'Amour types) have been based on water rights
and what made those westerns sell was they were based on history
I understand what Traveler is saying
But
The land owner downstream don't quite see it that way
especially when they represent a crack in the dam...of 200 million seekers of '_a meager amount' _

I'd pursue a well

...even that gets tricky


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## Traveler (Apr 24, 2018)

For those of you who live in other parts of the country, there are places in the U.S. where it is illegal to catch rain water from your own roof and then use that water. Nor can you drill a well or take water from a creek on your own property. Heck, you can not even allow your horse to drink from that little stream.  Why not ? Because some rich folks a hundred miles away, 500 miles away, claim that THEY, AND THEY ALONE, OWN THAT WATER


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## Traveler (Apr 25, 2018)

I found out today from an off grid guy that collecting rainwater in his state of Montana is perfectly legal. still checking on Idaho.
Some counties in that general area get 23' of rainfall/year. If I collected every drop that fell on a 20 x 15 foot tin roof, that would give me 4,100 gal. Works out to 11.2 gal /day for domestic use.  a new 500 Gallon potable water tank costs only $323 USD. I could hire a backhoe for 1/2 day to bury the tank below frost line. I can do all the plumbing myself. No problem. Saves a LOT of money.

It would then be a very simple matter of getting a few used Arco solar panels, hooking them up to a bank of deep-cycle batteries and then running a D/C water pump into the cabin.  ( this D/C system is exactly like an R.V. system). The D/C water pump is an "on demand" system, when not running, uses no juice. Turn on the tap, pressure is released and the pump automatically turns on. A tried and true RV system.

Also, for household D/c power, I would use the same system to run lights.


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## Gary O' (Apr 26, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I found out today from an off grid guy that collecting rainwater in his state of Montana is perfectly legal. still checking on Idaho.
> Some counties in that general area get 23' of rainfall/year. If I collected every drop that fell on a 20 x 15 foot tin roof, that would give me 4,100 gal. Works out to 11.2 gal /day for domestic use.  a new 500 Gallon potable water tank costs only $323 USD. I could hire a backhoe for 1/2 day to bury the tank below frost line. I can do all the plumbing myself. No problem. Saves a LOT of money.
> 
> It would then be a very simple matter of getting a few used Arco solar panels, hooking them up to a bank of deep-cycle batteries and then running a D/C water pump into the cabin.  ( this D/C system is exactly like an R.V. system). The D/C water pump is an "on demand" system, when not running, uses no juice. Turn on the tap, pressure is released and the pump automatically turns on. A tried and true RV system.
> ...



Looks good on paper

solar power and water catchment gets interesting
one requires sun
the other requires clouds
what one does for power, whether stored or not, when the rainy season comes...and stays, requires alternate sources
what one does for water, when the dry season arrives, gets expensive
500 gallons seems a lot
it's not
and keeping what is kept, potable....gets one's immediate attention when it becomes other than
that's when a good outhouse facility comes in handy


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## IKE (Apr 26, 2018)

Speaking of storing water.......when I was working in Nam and living with the locals, during the rainy season we'd catch rain water in 55 gal. drums and no matter how tight the lid was after 'X' period mosquito larvae would be present in the water.

When mixed 50-50 in a glass with the potent homemade local hooch you could actually see the little buggers curl up and die after a few seconds......they didn't seem to hurt the taste or affect the buzz one bit.


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## Happyflowerlady (Apr 26, 2018)

I do not know about southern Idaho, but in the northern part, there are a lot of people who live on the land and do not have electricity or running water. It is fine to catch any rainwater that you want , and some people have an underground storage tank that they can siphon it off into and then pump it into the house as needed. 
I had a friend that did this when i was living in Idaho. 
She had rain gutters on the house and outbuildings and they all caught the rainwater and it went into a drain that led to a large underground storage tank that was like you would use for a well, or even a septic system. 
She only had to haul water in the very deepest heat of summer, usually late July and part of August, and she did have to be considerate of how much water she used, especially during the summer months. 

Some people use generators and some have solar or even wind-generators to produce their own electricity. 
Before I had power connected, I used an RV pump connected to a large deep cycle battery to pump water into my house. I used a small solar panel, and also charged the battery with my pickup when necessary, and this worked fine. 
I think that Idaho is definitely a place that you should check out, Traveler.


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## Traveler (Apr 26, 2018)

Hello HappyFlower,

You and I are definitely working on the same page.  I am zeroed in on Northern Idaho/Western Montana. Precisely where, will depend on how I "feel" about a site. I want/need some mature trees and some open ground. Also, if my "neighbor" blows his car horn, and I can hear it, I'm waaay too close to people. 

Because of the complications of catching rainwater, relatively free of bird droppings and leaves/pine needles etc I'll be building in an open area. The same applies to the solar system. An area with a good south facing exposure is critical. 

Re: water system. In addition to the rainwater catchment, with a 500 gallon underground tank, I plan on having a 250 gallon tank that is designed to fit neatly into the back of a pick-up truck. Thus, when I go to town, once/month, for groceries, doing laundry at the laundromat, picking up mail and special orders from Amazon (especially books, lots and lots of books), I can fill up the water tank at the same time. 

I did some checking on the amount of annual rainfall. Generally speaking, that area gets 23"/year. That works out to 4,088 gallons/year just from my metal roof. Asphalt is BAD NEWS for collecting safe potable water. The rainwater catchment will yield an average of 11.2 gallons/day/year. 

For those interested, the water filter system, is gravel, small pea sized gravel, sand, and on the lowest level, activated charcoal. Survivalists tell me that produces crystal pure, delicious water.  

I am still thinking about a septic system that can produce a clean/safe garden fertilizer. I have not yet worked out the precise details, but I know I'll need a biodegradable T.P, and some of that live organism stuff (I forget the name right now) that turns human waste into mulch. 

Another factor I have not yet investigated is what kind of dish and hand soap to use so that I will be able to water my garden with "gray water".  This will be a simple matter of having 2 separate holding tanks (R.V. Style).


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## Traveler (Apr 29, 2018)

I am pleasantly surprised to be in contact with so many "off grid" folks.  Lots and lots of great personal experience/info out there. It's really starting to come together. And I am happy to report that it will be MUCH cheaper than I thought it might be.

I have down-sized the sq. ft of the cabin plan to 504 sq ft. For $6,000 I can build an unfinished but, weather tight cabin. Provided I do all the work myself. I figure I can get the job done in 3 months.


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## Gary O' (Apr 29, 2018)

Traveler said:


> In addition to the rainwater catchment, with a 500 gallon underground tank,* I plan on having a 250 gallon tank that is designed to fit neatly into the back of a pick-up truck.* Thus, when I go to town, once/month, for groceries, doing laundry at the laundromat, picking up mail and special orders from Amazon (especially books, lots and lots of books), I can fill up the water tank at the same time.
> 
> I did some checking on the amount of annual rainfall. Generally speaking, that area gets 23"/year. That works out to 4,088 gallons/year just from my metal roof. Asphalt is BAD NEWS for collecting safe potable water. The rainwater catchment will yield an average of 11.2 gallons/day/year.
> 
> ...



Gawd, I hate to be the naysayer 

But
Water…is heavy
250 gallons weighs 2100 lbs
That’s payload….one…ton
That’s a considerable sized pickup
One that better be less than 5 yrs old, and has been babied most it’s life

also

If, the plan is still to ‘live in the high mountains’, getting up those mountains, carrying a ton of water, is a bit of a trick
Going down, even empty, on a mountain road, is just as tricky
Gravel mountain roads tend to washboard
Braking on washboard, in an empty pickup, gleefully on the way to town to pick up water, lotsa books, and biodegradable toilet paper...can be quite a thrill
That's about the time one wonders about the decision to be out of horn honking range from yer nearest neighbor


I don’t know why I’m typing all this
He’ll figger it all out
Just don’t wish the ol’ goat to end up in a bad way

ps

_*'For those interested, the water filter system, is gravel, small pea sized gravel, sand, and on the lowest level, activated charcoal. Survivalists tell me that produces crystal pure, delicious water.'*
_
Uh, no
Delicious mountain spring water produces delicious water
Water filter system water produces water you can drink....of which can taste delicious after building a thirst...but so does desert water


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## Gary O' (Apr 29, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I am zeroed in on Northern Idaho/Western Montana.



One more little thing;
Northern Idaho still has pockets of Aryan Nations types
They _*will *_greet a newcomer with open arms
But those arms tend to be loaded with ammo…for awhile


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## Traveler (Apr 29, 2018)

Regarding the water: their are people who claim all the water on MY property belongs to THEM. I have been told, in no uncertain terms, that I would be gunned down (yes, literally murdered) if I attempted to use ANY water on MY property, spring water or otherwise. Besides they are not the only ones with guns. Not that I would expect to find any land parcel with a spring.

I have no thoughts of living on the side of a steep mountain. There are thousands of isolated mountain parcels which are not the least bit steep. A shallow grade , yes. But not remotely steep.

A tough old mountain gal told me about hauling 150 gallons of water in her tiny Subaru pickup truck, in Northern, Idaho.  However, a Full-size Dodge pickup with over load springs is more than capable of hauling one ton of water, no matter what the age of the pickup. 

Off grid people are rather ingenious folks. They have to be, if they wish to survive. City folk would be shocked to learn of the novel ways of getting around any problem.


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## Catlady (Apr 29, 2018)

Traveler, I found this website that might interest you for living off-grid, it's about food that can be stored for a long time
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-foods-to-stock-for-long-term-use


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## Catlady (Apr 29, 2018)

Here's another survivalist website and I searched the crucial subject of water for you
https://www.survivalmonkey.com/search/2028458/?q=water+harvesting&o=date


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## Traveler (Apr 29, 2018)

Thank you, PVC. I'll check them out.

One minor point here. I am doing this because I want to end my last few years in peace and quite and to get away from the insanity of American society. However, I do not see myself as a survivalist who is expecting the end of the world. Small point perhaps, but important to me.


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## Catlady (Apr 29, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Thank you, PVC. I'll check them out.
> 
> One minor point here. I am doing this because I want to end my last few years in peace and quite and to get away from the insanity of American society. However, *I do not see myself as a survivalist who is expecting the end of the world*. Small point perhaps, but important to me.



I understand.  The main reason I gave you the survivalist websites is that they live off the grid for long stretches and have acquired wisdom and resourcefulness you could learn from and avoid making their mistakes.


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## Gary O' (Apr 29, 2018)

Traveler said:


> One minor point here. I am doing this because I want to end my last few years in peace and quite and to get away from the insanity of American society. However, I do not see myself as a survivalist who is expecting the end of the world. Small point perhaps, but important to me.



We are one on this

Not so minor

Big point, to me


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## Traveler (Apr 30, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> We are one on this
> 
> Not so minor
> 
> Big point, to me




Interesting. Why would you say that ?


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## Gary O' (Apr 30, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Interesting. Why would you say that ?



Because a survivalist is geared so differently
I know a couple of them within two miles of our place
Had coffee
chatted about the whys
nice bunker, but whew...paranoia city
with a religious icing

his arsenal had more guns than the gun show I just attended

I get what you're doing
(I'm doing it too)


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## Gary O' (Apr 30, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Interesting. Why would you say that ?



couple more thoughts;

Traveler, I could write reams on the whys
But, it’s been done
And done well
*Mother Earth News* had many good articles in its beginning years, before going so commercial
But even before MEN, were the Nearings
Helen and Scott became gurus if not gods for many
Even now, considerable years past their deaths
Peaceful living, sans most modern amenities, but living well, were this controversial couple’s mantra

Anyway, I get what you’re saying, and heartily cheer you on

Enough from me, I don’t wish to steal yer thunder
But, if you don’t mind, I’d like to interject what we’ve learned, from time to time.

I’ll keep it serious.
No snide sarcasm.

In any event, my thoughts or not, I admire this endeavor 

Yessir

(_*Back Woods Home *_is a more current mag of which contains many articles worth reading)


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