# The " Arab Spring" re-visted



## Elyzabeth (Jun 29, 2015)

Is there any doubt that this was the beginning of the chaos and  EXTREME Horrors 

we now see in the Middle East?

The Arab Spring  laid the seeds for ISIS. 


 I 'm ashamed to say, as a UK citizen, that the UK dropped bombs on Libya

with no thoughts whatsoever as to what the consequences would be.

The people who are out there now are worse than  Quadaffi, or even Sadam Hussein. 

and they are attacking us, with a vengeance!

They want to rule the world...

 Hmm..... who was the last person who wanted to do that?

oh, it was Hitler!


----------



## Bee (Jun 29, 2015)

*Don't blame it all onto Britain, the US was not so innocent.*

*The UK, US and France have attacked Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi's forces in the first action to enforce a UN-mandated no-fly zone.*
Pentagon officials say the US and the UK have fired more than 110 missiles, while French planes struck pro-Gaddafi forces attacking rebel-held Benghazi.
Col Gaddafi has vowed retaliation and said he would open arms depots to the people to defend Libya.
Cruise missiles hit air-defence sites in the capital, Tripoli, and Misrata.
Libyan state TV said 48 people had been killed and 150 wounded in the attacks. There was no independent confirmation of the deaths.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 2, 2015)

Not my point !

My point is: The "Arab Spring" was not about a desire for democracy....

but to unleash the worst of the worst within the twisted type of Islam espoused by Isis !


----------



## Ralphy1 (Jul 2, 2015)

It turned out ugly but the Arab Spring started out as a revolutionarvforce in Tunisia and spread.  The West intervened in the hope of getting more democratic processes in motion, but it backfired badly...


----------



## Bee (Jul 2, 2015)

With posting this Elyzabeth........................_*I 'm ashamed to say, as a UK citizen, that the UK dropped bombs on Libya

with no thoughts whatsoever as to what the consequences would be...........*_what was your point Elyzabeth????, with you just

 mentioning the U.K. and no other country that dropped the bombs, it seemed to me you was just blaming the U.K. only for the bombing.


----------



## Debby (Jul 2, 2015)

NATO can be blamed for Libya with Hillary Clinton foaming at the mouth to get it done.  I think I've read that NATO's mandate is ONLY to protect NATO members but it's been perverted to be a weapon to be used anywhere 'someone' deems it necessary to their agenda.  Libya might have had issues before but Gaddafi did take care of his own citizens, free healthcare, free education, a royalty check from their oil for the citizens, support for other African countries.  His demise was brought about by his desire to trade his oil for gold currency instead of the dollar and that couldn't be allowed.

So Elyzabeth, your government was simply falling in line and taking orders I think.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33613.htm  This article begins with a description of the form of democracy that was present in Libya prior to it's destruction and was written by some guy out of Harvard University.

I think the closing paragraph says a lot about what NATO destroyed:

*Muammar Gaddafi inherited one of the poorest nations in Africa . However, by the time he was assassinated, Libya was unquestionably Africa ‘s most prosperous nation. Libya had the highest GDP per capita and life expectancy in Africa and less people lived below the poverty line than in the Netherlands . Libyans did not only enjoy free health care and free education, they also enjoyed free electricity and interest free loans. The price of petrol was around $0.14 per liter and 40 loaves of bread cost just $0.15. Consequently, the UN designated Libya the 53rd highest in the world in human development.*


----------



## Debby (Jul 2, 2015)

Bee said:


> With posting this Elyzabeth........................_*I 'm ashamed to say, as a UK citizen, that the UK dropped bombs on Libya
> 
> with no thoughts whatsoever as to what the consequences would be...........*_what was your point Elyzabeth????, with you just
> 
> mentioning the U.K. and no other country that dropped the bombs, it seemed to me you was just blaming the U.K. only for the bombing.




I think she was more simply lamenting that 'her' country had participated in bringing that country to it's knees as well as setting the stage for what has followed.  I feel the same way about Canada's involvement in the destruction of Haiti.  We didn't lead, but we sure participated much to our shame.  Not that most Canadians even realize that we were there.


----------



## Bee (Jul 2, 2015)

Debby, did you realise that Elyzabeth is an American living in England with duel citizenship and she does like knocking the U.K.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

Because we all know that the UK is completely blameless... all the time.


----------



## Bee (Jul 2, 2015)

No one has said the UK is completely blameless, what I said was the US is not so innocent.

Why don't you read the link I posted before you pass comment.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jul 2, 2015)

Bee said:


> No one has said the UK is completely blameless, what I said was the US is not so innocent.
> 
> Why don't you read the link I posted before you pass comment.



No argument from me..


----------



## oakapple (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm afraid that all of Elyzabeths posts are very anti Britain, so much so, that I wonder if she is unhappy living here?None of us here would be so naive as to think our country always does the right thing, but we do know that it doesn't always do the wrong thing either.As Ralphy says, the Arab Spring was a move towards democracy, but it  hasn't turned out well.


----------



## Josiah (Jul 2, 2015)

Until the turn of the century the middle east has been entirely controlled by strong despots who've brutally maintained tight control over their populations. The result was a status quo of sorts. The US upset this arrangement by invading Iraq and bombing Libya. The results have been very disturbing indeed, but I'm convinced the same falling into chaos would have occurred sooner or later without Western intervention, because the middle east was extremely unstable anyway and when the oil ran out all hell was bound to let loose. So while the US was wrong to intervene (very wrong) there was no way to avoid what is happening and no way to fix it now.


----------



## Shalimar (Jul 2, 2015)

I think Elyzabeth does not favour Canada, either, but considers us to be a suburb of America, or so she stated to me shortly after I joined sf. Perhaps her comments are tongue in cheek, but appear to indicate a certain bias against  Britain and possibly  some members of the Commonwealth. Patriotism toward our country of origin is all very well, but all gov'ts involved in this mess should be held to the same standard of accountability.


----------



## Debby (Jul 2, 2015)

Bee said:


> Debby, did you realise that Elyzabeth is an American living in England with duel citizenship and she does like knocking the U.K.




That may be, but her point is well taken and I'm hopeful that she also recognizes America's involvement in all of this. 

And having said that,  I'm here in Canada, pointing out over the months, the conflicts caused and supported by the USA and supported by Canada, Britain and France, etc.  Conflict is conflict and it's high time we all admitted our countries culpability because change only comes in the light of knowledge.


----------



## Debby (Jul 2, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Until the turn of the century the middle east has been entirely controlled by strong despots who've brutally maintained tight control over their populations. The result was a status quo of sorts. The US upset this arrangement by invading Iraq and bombing Libya. The results have been very disturbing indeed, but I'm convinced the same falling into chaos would have occurred sooner or later without Western intervention, because the middle east was extremely unstable anyway and when the oil ran out all hell was bound to let loose. So while the US was wrong to intervene (very wrong) there was no way to avoid what is happening and no way to fix it now.




Did you happen to read the link I showed here on Libya Josiah?  According to reports, Libya was not in chaos and the folks there actually had it pretty good until they were bombed by NATO/the USA.  What's more, in 1991, the Pentagon made the explicit decision to destabilize the ME and General Wesley Clark is on record (on video at several speaking engagements) attesting to that fact.  

So while that area may have had issues, American involvement has deliberately exacerbated the situation and continues to do so, with the most recent result being your administrations (with full knowledge) result of the creation of ISIS.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ed-isis-tool-overthrow-syrias-president-assad

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-is...-the-fall-of-mosul-and-ramadi-in-2012/5451363

So in light of the recent release of Pentagon documents stating that they knew that ISIS was developing but continue to fund their so-called 'moderate' opposition fighters to the Assad government and Clark's statement regarding ME destabilization, is it really reasonable to suggest that there 'was no way to avoid it'? 

I'd say that the 1991 decision has been a resounding success.  And the big bucks continue to roll into the coffers of the military industrialists (all of whom have stables of lobbyists talking to your politicians).


----------



## Bee (Jul 2, 2015)

Debby said:


> That may be, but her point is well taken and I'm hopeful that she also recognizes America's involvement in all of this.
> 
> And having said that,  I'm here in Canada, pointing out over the months, the conflicts caused and supported by the USA and supported by Canada, Britain and France, etc.  Conflict is conflict and it's high time we all admitted our countries culpability because change only comes in the light of knowledge.



My point about Elyzabeths original post is, she made it sound as if it was _*only*_ Britain that bombed Libya when in fact it wasn't.

If Elyzabeth had said that _*both*_ Britain and the U.S had bombed Libya then _*that*_ would have been fair enough and I wouldn't have got involved in a discussion in the first place.

Oakapple is correct in her post where she says that Elyzabeths posts are all anti British and myself and one or two other U.K. members have proved her wrong before in what she has said.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jul 3, 2015)

Perhaps this is true Bee... however, it's not too much unlike the anti-American sentiment we see here at times..  a whole lot more times in fact..  Lot's of "pots and kettles"  here  I may add.


----------



## Debby (Jul 3, 2015)

Well I think you'll have to agree that I for one don't spare my government any criticism Quick Silver.  No pot/kettle thing going on here !  

I have a long list of bookmarked stories calling out (especially) the current government for multiple wrongs, but frankly seldom do threads on them because I'm guessing that as the group here is mostly American, there would be little interest.  It would more often than not, be a conversation with myself I think.

Just for fun though, as you know we will be having an election in October and one of the candidates is the son of a past Prime Minister.  He's 43, is good looking and charming and loves being among the people.  Really sociable unlike our current PM.  

One of our current Conservative PM's methods of bad mouthing him is to continually say that Trudeau (the Liberal leader) 'isn't ready to be PM because he's inexperienced'.  So let's compare them:

Harper:

-became PM when he was 47
-worked for Imperial oil in the mail room and as a computer technician (where he probably got to say "did you try turning it off and then on again" a lot)
-got his Masters in Economic and finished that when he was about 28 whereupon, he started up the political ladder so he never actually worked as an economist.

Trudeau:

-grew up at the knee of one of Canada's Prime Ministers and spent his young years surrounded by and influenced by numerous political leaders from around the world
-got his BA in education and even spent time studying engineering (although he did drop out)
-worked as a teacher for nine years, worked as a ski instructor in his early years
-was the Chairman of the Board for some group called Katimavik (Canada's premier national youth learning through volunteer service organization) which had 900 young people working there at the time
-united the Liberal Party at a time when they were crushed and down
-is running to be Prime Minister at the age of 43.

So the 'bad' is that Harper tries hard to portray the 'next' guy as weak, inexperienced and deficient even as Harper, the economist, has shepherded the country through rough times and is so capable.  What is ignored is that just before the Conservatives took over, the Liberal party left a huge surplus to them which they proceeded to use to 'save' the country in the 2008 financial collapse after which they ran deficit after deficit.  At least Trudeau had real and significant jobs, worked with 'real' people with 'real' concerns instead of insignificant jobs and then spent his time with 'politicians'.  So basically our PM works secretively and offers lies and innuendo to support why he should be voted in again.

And then there's Harper's decision to not support a nuclear free world as proposed by the UN.......I could go on and on.


----------



## Debby (Jul 3, 2015)

Then to add another 'story' about Canadian politics, our current government told the taxpayer that the F35's they wanted to buy would cost $48 billion when in fact they would actually cost about $56 billion which would eat up Canada's military budget for the next three decades.  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...er-programs-life-expert-says/article18325378/

Harper initially came to power promising to abolish the Senate, then proceeded to appoint about 35 more Senators several of whom are in the RCMP cross hairs for bilking the taxpayers of Canada out of a few million on illegal expenses.  And indeed one of his MP's has just been sentenced to jail time for committing fraud in the course of his election campaign.

Like I said, I have a long list, but I'm hoping that I've proved the point that I'm neither a 'pot' nor a 'kettle'.

I'm not saying that there aren't good people who set out to do good things in the political world but it seems to me that there is overwhelming evidence that multitudes of those people in which ever country you want to mention, who become corrupted by the power, the prestige, the perks and prospects and proceed to do their own thing at the expense of the people.


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 3, 2015)

My countries are both America and the UK


Was America dropping bombs on Libya?

I think it was just the "raised in a  wealthy bubble" Prime Minister David Cameron

 that insisted on dropping bombs on  Libya.. which should not have been done...
it was none of his business and look where it got us !!!!

Perhaps I'm wrong, if so, please enlighten me

According to an article in a 2011 issue of the Guardian: America offered ground support.. BUT  The UK bombed them !!!


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 3, 2015)

I do Not "like Knocking the UK" Bee.. I read the news about America and the UK very closely and on a daily basis 

Had you a bit more l knowledge you would perhaps have been aware of the many

 times that I have been quite unhappy with several American policies...

and that I am ashamed that George Bush was ever an American President 


Over here, I am very annoyed with the " voting policies "... once every 5 years? 

 mark X in a box. for the old  boys network to pick their  leader..?

 I also think that the UK should have a constitution, as all other developed countries, do.

Those are the two areas which I have spoken out about

As an American I believe in bringing to the daylight areas which I feel   the government is failing in.

 Wheras the people of the UK,  tend to view any criticism as "dissing their country."

... and usually tell me to go back to where I came from  by the way !

Some people are a bit more  limited in their views and understanding... 

and will tell those who think differently to go back to where they came from


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 3, 2015)

In reply to BEE :



The US did NOT bomb Libya they "offered ground support"      (
(According to The Guardian )

 Perhaps you would like to get a bit more knowledge , before you make statement such as that ?


----------



## oakapple (Jul 3, 2015)

Elzabeth , to the best of my knowledge, all your posts regarding Britain have been critical even of our way of voting!you can hardly be surprised, if you are  always critical that people will say ' go home then , if it's so wonderful there'.
I have never stated any anti American things on here, or anywhere else for that matter, and have never heard any of my friends  say anything critical about the US or the President. why would you say  that David Cameron was raised in a wealthy bubble? a lot of politicians come from well off backgrounds in all countries, but it doesn't mean they can't do the job.


----------



## oakapple (Jul 3, 2015)

Also, Elzabeth, perhaps you should be a bit more aware that in all matters Middle East , your own country has dropped quite a few bombs as well.Rightly or wrongly.


----------



## Josiah (Jul 3, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> In reply to BEE :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The following is part of a CBS news report  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/crisis-in-libya-us-bombs-qaddafis-airfields/

Updated 12:28 a.m.


*Three B-2 stealth bombers flying non-stop from the United States have dropped 40 bombs on a major Libyan airfield tonight in an attempt to destroy much of Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi's air force, CBS News David Martin reports.


At the same time, US Air Force fighter jets conducted missions searching for Libyan ground forces to attack. No US aircraft were lost during the missions.
Libyan state TV is reporting that air strikes have killed 48 people and wounded 150 in "civilian areas." Libyan state TV is controlled by Muammar Qaddafi's government and it was impossible to confirm the reports of civilian deaths Saturday.
* A state department spokesman said no U.S officials remain in Libya. The state department has also advised all Americans in Libya to leave, and for everyone, even journalists, to avoid travel there.


* Al Jazeera reports that Libya has decided to suspend co-operation with Europe in the fight against illegal immigration, state TV citing a security official reported on Sunday.


----------



## oakapple (Jul 4, 2015)

Thank you Josiah, that helps clear something up.


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 4, 2015)

i never said, and would never say,  that America has done nothing wrong...

However. 

 if ANY, ANY wrong doing is pointed out about England : 

" Go back to where you came from"


Pointless to have any discussion about this. 

 The English will always  be defensive, and certainly have no understanding 

 of the American system of holding their Government to account


----------



## oakapple (Jul 5, 2015)

Sorry Elzabeth, but that comment is total rubbish.


----------



## oakapple (Jul 5, 2015)

Josiah has just showed you that the U.S. did bomb Libya, which makes nonsense of your post that it never has!


----------



## Vivjen (Jul 5, 2015)

I was going to comment....but won't.


----------



## Shalimar (Jul 5, 2015)

Which countries regularly hold their government to account? Transparency would be required in order to do so, and that is is almost always in short supply, even in a democracy.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Perhaps this is true Bee... however, it's not too much unlike the anti-American sentiment we see here at times..  a whole lot more times in fact..  Lot's of "pots and kettles"  here  I may add.




*Quicksilver*, I have never posted anti-American posts on here, it takes me all my time to keep up with my own government without trying to keep up with someone elses government, in fact I very rarely post in the current news section only when Elyzabeth posts knocking the U.K. and then yes I admit she is like a red rag to a bull where I am concerned, because she has been proved wrong so many times in what she has to say about the U.K.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Elzabeth , to the best of my knowledge, all your posts regarding Britain have been critical even of our way of voting!you can hardly be surprised, if you are  always critical that people will say ' go home then , if it's so wonderful there'.
> I have never stated any anti American things on here, or anywhere else for that matter, and have never heard any of my friends  say anything critical about the US or the President. why would you say  that David Cameron was raised in a wealthy bubble? a lot of politicians come from well off backgrounds in all countries, but it doesn't mean they can't do the job.




Excellent post Oakapple and thankyou


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> My countries are both America and the UK
> 
> 
> Was America dropping bombs on Libya?
> ...



Did you read the link on post 2 and the link Josiah posted on post 26 ( thankyou Josiah), both these links showed that America did bomb Libya and oh! did you know France was the first country to bomb Libya????......so please do NOT blame it all on Cameron.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> In reply to BEE :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do NOT tell me to get a bit more knowledge when I have spent a week end with close relatives who are close to the Libyan bombings and have confirmed everything I have said....................you see Elyzabeth I don't just get my knowledge from the internet or newspapers, I actually speak to real people in the real world.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> I do Not "like Knocking the UK" Bee.. I read the news about America and the UK very closely and on a daily basis
> 
> Had you a bit more l knowledge you would perhaps have been aware of the many
> 
> ...




Elyzabeth, nearly every post you make you are knocking the U.K. so please do not tell me otherwise.

Why on earth should you be annoyed with our voting policies, we have voted that way since before I was born, it is a nice simple way, some time last year you posted about voting policies in the U.K. then and alongside myself other U.K. members proved you were wrong in what you had to say about our way of voting........by the way we have the British constitution, perhaps you are not aware of our history.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...ritish-constitution/the-british-constitution/

The difference between you and myself Elyzabeth I do not need a forum to discuss any failings of my government or any political party for that matter, I go straight to the top personally and for your information by taking the direct route I _*have*_ _*made*_ a difference, with my local MP raising my queries in Parliament.....

If you are always critisising the U.K. as you do, is it any wonder people think you are unhappy here and that perhaps you should go back from whence you came.


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 6, 2015)

Rubbish ?

 Based upon what ?

I am willing to admit blame for things wrongly done by America 

but that does not seem to happen here. I vote in both elections,

 so it is just possible that I am more aware then you are of the voting differences between the two countries...?


----------



## Pam (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> Rubbish ?
> 
> Based upon what ?
> 
> ...



When you obviously don't  understand the voting system in the UK then your last sentence is a bit suspect.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Well said Pam, but I am afraid , you are banging your head against a brick wall.


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 6, 2015)

OAKAPPL

Since I vote in both countries and you do not, perhaps I am in a better equipped than you are

to speak about voting differences between the US and the UK

Have you ever actually seen what an American voting form looks like?

.... or the booklet of information that goes with it?


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> Rubbish ?
> 
> Based upon what ?
> 
> ...



[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/wqoglj.gif[/IMG]


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 6, 2015)

Under the Guardian Heading of David Cameron's  War  oct 2, 2011 by Partick Lintour :

"Fox says: "It took us eight days to get Nato command and control, when it had taken much, much longer in previous conflicts. That was a real plus."

But the initial military strain was loaded on the US, which continued TO OFFER SUPPORT, SHORT OF BOMBING,  after Nato took over command of the operation.

By 27 March, 1602 sorties had been flown of which 983 were undertaken by US planes. The US also provided 80% of air refuelling, almost 75% of aerial surveillance and 100% of all electronic warfare missions.

"Nato could not have done it without the US," Fox openly admits.

Another minister says: "They have the intelligence assets in the sky and air-to-air refuelling that is invaluable for a long-haul mission. Without the US, the whole damn thing would not have happened.


THIS WHOLE PROCESS OF "THE ARAB SPRING" WAS A VERY BAD EVENT  FOR THE WORLD .

 HIDDEN UNDER THE SHEEPS BLANKET OF DEMOCRACY, WAS ISIS

IF THE US BOMBED THEY WERE WRONG

 AND IF THE UK BOMBED THEY WERE SURE AS  HELL WRONG....

NO PROBS I CAN SAY SOMETHING  WRONG WAS DONE...BUT THE ENGLISH???

MAYBE THEY WOULD ADMIT IT IN WHISPERS, DOWN AT THE PUB

THIS IS NOT.... AN OPEN AND FORTHCOMING SOCIETY, PERIOD!


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> Under the Guardian Heading of David Cameron's  War  oct 2, 2011 by Partick Lintour :
> 
> "Fox says: "It took us eight days to get Nato command and control, when it had taken much, much longer in previous conflicts. That was a real plus."
> 
> ...




My local pub is very loud and vocal, no whispers going on there.:lofl:


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Elyzabeth, in case you missed my link on post 37 this is the British constitution.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...ritish-constitution/the-british-constitution/


So you see we do have a constitution.


----------



## Debby (Jul 6, 2015)

To Bee and Elyzabeth,

Just read this link  (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/us-forces-lead-attack-against-libya-in-operation-audacity-dawn/)     and according to it the USA didn't offer ground support in Libya:  
'_USS Barry launches a Tomahawk missile — one of about 110 cruise missiles fired from U.S. and British ships and submarines targetting radar and anti-aircraft sites along Libya’s Mediterranean coast....'
_
'...France, Italy, the United Kingdom and Canada, and that they expected some Arab countries to join in the coming days....'

'....._The president reiterated that the U.S. will not send in ground troops....'

_So it seems to me that whether bombs were dropped from planes or shot from ships is moot.  The effect is the same.

What I think is more important is why this all happened and as other links have shown, Libya, under Gaddafi was one of the richest African countries and the citizens got all kinds of perks and benefits that us Westerners would love to have, i.e. free education, free healthcare, a royalty check every year from the oil sales, and most even got free housing, plus other benefits.  So who exactly was fighting against all of this?  What nimrod would 'rebel' against the blessings of the Gaddafi regime if that's what life was like for the citizens?

And in looking at Wikipedia, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Civil_War_(2011)) it's noted that Gaddafi offered a ceasefire in March of that year, but the rebels who were being supported by the Western coalition, refused it because it didn't include Gaddafi leaving.  

It should also be noted that prior to all of this commencing, Gaddafi was planning on selling his countries oil for gold instead of petro-dollars(the American dollar).  African countries were keen on the idea as were some Muslim countries.  America's economy is highly dependent on their reserve currency status and the global buying and selling of oil is a primary source of American 'wealth' because of the use of the dollar,  but unfortunately for Libya, they were too small a country to protect themselves from the ire that the plan was sure to raise.  His plan was a threat, so he had to go.

Saddam Hussein had also begun efforts to begin selling his oil for euro's instead of the dollar, and shortly after that, the news outlets began chanting the mantra of 'threats from his WMD' and we all know what the culmination of that bogey-man was.

So people can look at all these clues and ignore the circumstantial evidence that is being suggested by these events, and you can ignore General Wesley Clark's pronouncement on what the Pentagon decided regarding destabilizing the ME back in 1991, but it seems pretty self-evident to me and millions of others around the globe, that events are being manipulated and countries like Canada, Britain, France, the Saudi's, etc., are going along with all of this in exchange for standing as BFF's with benefits.


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

Sorry Debby, but it is just not about the bombing of Libya where Elyzabeth is concerned, it is the fact that she is always criticising the U.K., and myself and one or two other U.K.members are getting peed off with it.......................then she wonders why she is told to go back to the U.S. if she is not happy here.

The way she speaks of our voting system I believe she would like to import the U.S. way of doing things, and why the hell should we copy other countries way of voting, she also thinks we should have a constitution, if she knew anything at all, she would know we already have a British constitution.

This is now my last post on this thread, I really haven't got patience to engage anymore with Elyzabeth or about Elyzabeth and it is best I shut up before I am banned.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jul 6, 2015)

Bee said:


> Sorry Debby, but it is just not about the bombing of Libya where Elyzabeth is concerned, it is the fact that she is always criticising the U.K., and myself and one or two other U.K.members are getting peed off with it.......................then she wonders why she is told to go back to the U.S. if she is not happy here.
> 
> This is now my last post on this thread, I really haven't got patience to engage anymore with Elyzabeth and it is best I shut up before I am banned.



It appears to me you have something against poor Elyzabeth?    :laugh:


----------



## Bee (Jul 6, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> It appears to me you have something against poor Elyzabeth?    :laugh:



What on earth makes you think that.:bigwink::lofl:


----------



## QuickSilver (Jul 6, 2015)

Just a wild guess


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 12, 2015)

Excellent, informative post  Debby !!!!


Thank-you


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 12, 2015)

It would seem so, Quicksilver wouldn't it ?


----------



## Elyzabeth (Jul 15, 2015)

I am  a citizen of both the UK and the USA

Have you ever even SEEN what an  American voting ballot  looks like???

I showed my ballot (and accompanying informative  booklet) to and English friend 

and he couldn't believe how comprehensive American voting is !


----------

