# Number of Covid breakthrough deaths slowly rising



## Becky1951 (Aug 30, 2021)

_*I will be posting articles related to Covid breakthrough cases and deaths. Or articles of vaccine related deaths as I come across them.

I will not respond to any snarky, hateful comments of those wishing to bait me into an argument. I will not respond to comments insinuating I don't know how to research information as I actually do know how. I will not respond to any name calling comments directed at me. I will not respond to any comments implying I am uneducated and/or do not understand the severity of Covid.  
*_
*Those of you who have done so of course can continue to insinuate, bait, call names and imply all you want to, just don't expect any replied comments from me.  Have a nice evening.    *


79 fully vaccinated died.
https://www-bostonglobe-com.cdn.amp...id-cases-vaccinated-people-is-incredibly-low/

31 fully vaccinated have died
https://fox17-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ent-says-breakthrough-case-virus-coronavirus-

Nearly 400 people have been hospitalized and 100 have now died in Massachusetts
https://www-nbcboston-com.cdn.amppr...-cases-in-massachusetts-what-we-know/2457920/

Updated Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. That brings the total to 15,739 cases and 131 deaths in people with breakthrough infections.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coro...7-more-covid-deaths-among-vaccinated/2475214/

Health officials say 10 fully vaccinated Oregonians died of COVID-19 in July, correcting previously reported data
https://www-oregonlive-com.cdn.ampp...july-correcting-previously-reported-data.htm

159 Dead, 593 Hospitalized in Illinois Breakthrough COVID Cases
https://www-nbcchicago-com.cdn.ampp...in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/

Illinois updated to Aug 19, 2021 — In all, 223 Illinois residents considered to be fully vaccinated have died from COVID-19, according to the Illinois Department of Public Health

https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20...-breakthrough-cases-a-quarter-of-weeks-deaths


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## win231 (Aug 30, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> _*I will be posting articles related to Covid breakthrough cases and deaths. Or articles of vaccine related deaths as I come across them.
> 
> I will not respond to any snarky, hateful comments of those wishing to bait me into an argument. I will not respond to comments insinuating I don't know how to research information as I actually do know how. I will not respond to any name calling comments directed at me. I will not respond to any comments implying I am uneducated and/or do not understand the severity of Covid.  *_
> 
> ...


Thank you for caring enough to provide important information we all need, despite putting up with the put-down artists.


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## Packerjohn (Aug 30, 2021)

Well, ain't that a shame.  It looks like Covid is to blame?  However, there are over 8 billions people on this planet.  Everyday they die from traffic accidents, plane crashes, poisons, suicide, armed conflict, old age, cancer, diabetes, drowning, food poisoning, knife stabings, just to mention a few things.  What is the big deal that they die from this Covid?  Don't forget that Sars and Aids was suppose to kill us but here we are?  After this Covid deal is mostly over, we'll still be around for the most part.  I'm with Alfred E. Newman, "What Me Worrry?"  Also, remember that deer and rabbits go through a 7 year cycle when they multiply like crazy and then die off.  Maybe us, Homo Sapiens, have been multiping just a bit too much?  Don't be too afraid to think about it.


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## Buckeye (Aug 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Illinois updated to Aug 19, 2021 — In all, 223 Illinois residents considered to be fully vaccinated have died from COVID-19, according to the Illinois Department of Public Health


Wow! 223!  How terrible.

Illinois population is approx 12,770,000 and 51% are fully vaxxed, so that is 6,513,000 folks fully vaxxed, and 223 have died.

Total Covid deaths in Illinois is 26,472.  So 26,249 unvaxxed have died from Covid.

So, hell yes, by all means, avoid that jab!  It'll kill ya!


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## win231 (Aug 31, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Wow! 223!  How terrible.
> 
> Illinois population is approx 12,770,000 and 51% are fully vaxxed, so that is 6,513,000 folks fully vaxxed, and 223 have died.
> 
> ...


Except that the numbers of Covid deaths are greatly exaggerated.


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## Buckeye (Aug 31, 2021)

win231 said:


> Except that the numbers of Covid deaths are greatly exaggerated.


lol - if it makes you feel better, sure.  I suppose the 223 number is similarly exaggerated too.


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## StarSong (Aug 31, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Wow! 223!  How terrible.
> 
> Illinois population is approx 12,770,000 and 51% are fully vaxxed, so that is 6,513,000 folks fully vaxxed, and 223 have died.
> 
> ...


Exactly.  
I'd also point out that those 223 would have died of Covid they hadn't been vaccinated.  The vaccine may not have saved them, but it was the virus killed them, not the vaccine.


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## Sunny (Aug 31, 2021)

I wonder if this endless controversy about the vaccine is partly due to the poor math education received in this country.  Some of the anti-vaxxers sound like they don't really understand how big a number a million is.  So if you say 223 died out of 6,513,000, that sounds like wow, terrible, that vaccine is really scary and dangerous.  Maybe they need to see one of those charts with a little person for each of the 6 million plus and then color the 223 who died a different color? Probably the chart showing the millions would occupy a whole city block, and the part containing the 223 who died would be about an inch wide.

The same goes for the "breakthrough" cases.  The enormous majority of those people who got Covid after receiving the vaccine had either very minor symptoms or no symptoms at all.They just tested positive. None of them died from the vaccine (except for the very rare allergy case), and from all I've read and heard, none or practically none died of breakthrough Covid. 

The arguments are frantically ranging all over the place:
1.  Mockery of Dr. Fauci and science in general
2.  The pharmaceutical companies (oh, horror!) making a profit, which no other business does
3. Outright denial of the numbers of people killed or made dreadfully sick by this disease
4, Admitting that maybe the vaccine helps a few people but mostly it doesn't
5,  Spreading ridiculous lies about the CEO of the pharmaceutical company not really being vaccinated himself, posing for a fake shot with a fake needle
6. Apparently being gleeful when they learn that the vaccine (like many others) loses its full effectiveness after some time passes, and a booster shot may be required
7. The vaccine causes impotence, infertility, people to grow six heads, you name it
8.  I've even heard denial that the disease even exists.

All efforts to defeat this virus, which is all of our enemy, are met with resistance, hostility, and mockery. I find this truly astonishing.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

You have a nice _evening_ too!


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## Don M. (Aug 31, 2021)

There seems to be little value in trying to convince some of our people that this Virus is Not a Hoax, or that the Vaccines substantially lower the risk of serious illness or death.  It seems that some of these people only change their minds when they are lying in an ICU.  

In the interim, these fixed attitudes are stretching our nations medical personnel and facilities to their limits, running up massive medical costs, and preventing people who need care for other conditions from getting the care they need.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 31, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Exactly.
> I'd also point out that those 223 would have died of Covid they hadn't been vaccinated.  The vaccine may not have saved them, but it was the virus killed them, not the vaccine.


Bingo!


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

There is one method that virtually guarantees that you will not
become a breakthrough death statistic, don't get vaccinated.
But you do stand a greater chance of contracting Covid and
possibly infecting others through your not getting vaxxed.
But hey, at least you won't be a breakthrough statistic!
Have a nice day, or whatever time it is where you are!


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> _*I will be posting articles related to Covid breakthrough cases and deaths. Or articles of vaccine related deaths as I come across them.
> 
> I will not respond to any snarky, hateful comments of those wishing to bait me into an argument. I will not respond to comments insinuating I don't know how to research information as I actually do know how. I will not respond to any name calling comments directed at me. I will not respond to any comments implying I am uneducated and/or do not understand the severity of Covid.  *_
> 
> ...


I think that it's wonderful that you know how to research information and that you share it, that's nice too. But several of your carefully researched links aren't clickable, only the blue ones are hyper-linked and open when clicked upon. The others won't open either when I copy and paste them directly into my browser and I've tried it on more than one. Is it possible that you could also make these clickable? I'm interested in your research and I want to know all of the facts but as I say, I can't view all of your carefully researched information. Thanks in advance for your consideration.


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## Don M. (Aug 31, 2021)

There were some reports on the morning news that said some hospitals in Florida are bringing in temporary morgues to house the overflow of Covid deaths....which are occurring so fast that the funeral parlors are running out of space.  

This Virus has been a major problem for the Nation, and the entire world, for almost 2 years, now.  If there are still some people who are in denial, there is probably nothing that will bring them around to facing reality.  

With more and more areas relaxing their mask and distancing requirements, the numbers will only continue to climb.  The next tragedy may be among the children going back to school,

IMO, the hospitals should set up a big tent in the parking lot, and provide the unvaccinated patients with a cot in the tent, and all the morphine they want.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> _*I will be posting articles related to Covid breakthrough cases and deaths. Or articles of vaccine related deaths as I come across them.
> 
> I will not respond to any snarky, hateful comments of those wishing to bait me into an argument. I will not respond to comments insinuating I don't know how to research information as I actually do know how. I will not respond to any name calling comments directed at me. I will not respond to any comments implying I am uneducated and/or do not understand the severity of Covid.  *_
> 
> ...


Your posts are always so uplifting


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## win231 (Aug 31, 2021)

Don M. said:


> There were some reports on the morning news that said some hospitals in Florida are bringing in temporary morgues to house the overflow of Covid deaths....which are occurring so fast that the funeral parlors are running out of space.
> 
> This Virus has been a major problem for the Nation, and the entire world, for almost 2 years, now.  If there are still some people who are in denial, there is probably nothing that will bring them around to facing reality.
> 
> ...


What?  No more refrigerated meat trucks to store the bodies?


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## Becky1951 (Aug 31, 2021)

I find it odd that people think I post these articles to dissuade being vaccinated. I believe in knowing as much information as possible, good, bad and in between.  I'm not posting misinformation, breakthrough cases ending in deaths are fact.  The numbers are rising, fact.

Also, telling others that once vaccinated you wont die, just be sick a little bit is irresponsible. 
That person you tell may forgo treatment thinking they just need to tough it out at home and not seek medical care. 

I have not ignored the numbers that have continually been posted as a counter to these topics, however the facts of the topic are constantly being ignored and as if they don't matter. I guess if it doesn't happen to you or anyone you know then its not important. Its not scare tactics its facts, if those facts scare you, stress you, don't read the topic.  It would be different if it were misinformation I'm posting.  

I've never told anyone, "don't get vaccinated", but yet have read plenty comments in this forum implying they should get vaccinated, its the only way.  So who is trying to persuade who? 

However if everyone agreed then it wouldn't be much of a discussion.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

@Becky1951 Thanks but I still can't read many 
of these facts you cite. The black ones, not the blue.


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## Pauline1954 (Aug 31, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> Well, ain't that a shame.  It looks like Covid is to blame?  However, there are over 8 billions people on this planet.  Everyday they die from traffic accidents, plane crashes, poisons, suicide, armed conflict, old age, cancer, diabetes, drowning, food poisoning, knife stabings, just to mention a few things.  What is the big deal that they die from this Covid?  Don't forget that Sars and Aids was suppose to kill us but here we are?  After this Covid deal is mostly over, we'll still be around for the most part.  I'm with Alfred E. Newman, "What Me Worrry?"  Also, remember that deer and rabbits go through a 7 year cycle when they multiply like crazy and then die off.  Maybe us, Homo Sapiens, have been multiping just a bit too much?  Don't be too afraid to think about it.



Well John you maybe missing the point. From what I understand this should have been stopped before now.  FDA has a number they reach before a drug is stopped in the experiment . Its 25 adverse reactions and deaths. But nothings been done yet they just keep pushing it..  I just cannot image why. Except its a money making scheme.  When a person dies from covid in,the hospital they get  like 30grand.  And employers are being paid money for each employee vaccinated. Its supposed to be like 400$ I heard this from an HR and doctor. I wish I could find the info again.   Dont be afraid to look at the behavior and words of people doing the pushing. And the money aspect of all this. Could the push be , because over a million doses are set to expire very soon and they want to sell,it?  How much do they get for giving a shot. I dont think Ive heard a figure.


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## win231 (Aug 31, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> Well John you maybe missing the point. From what I understand this should have been stopped before now.  FDA has a number they reach before a drug is stopped in the experiment . Its 25 adverse reactions and deaths. But nothings been done yet they just keep pushing it..  I just cannot image why. Except its a money making scheme.  When a person dies from covid in,the hospital they get  like 30grand.  And employers are being paid money for each employee vaccinated. Its supposed to be like 400$ I heard this from an HR and doctor. I wish I could find the info again.   Dont be afraid to look at the behavior and words of people doing the pushing. And the money aspect of all this. Could the push be , because over a million doses are set to expire very soon and they want to sell,it?  How much do they get for giving a shot. I dont think Ive heard a figure.


They run into the same problem every year with unused flu vaccine; they have to throw it away.  In the medical industry, it's known as "Cash in the Trash."  When sales of flu vaccine started dropping as interest faded, they needed much more fear so they wouldn't have the same problem with Covid vaccines.  That's likely behind the exaggerated mortality rates.
It's still quite amusing to remember (when this all started) the Mayors, Governors & medical experts telling us to maintain social distancing of at least 6 feet & wear masks while they all stood shoulder-to-shoulder maskless.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> I wish I could find the info again.


I wish you could too because otherwise, it's just not very believable. And you heard someone from an HR and doctor something else that's undocumented? Well, do they have names? Your maiden name wasn't Information or was it?  

Sorry but I think that Mr Einstein is more credible.


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## Tish (Aug 31, 2021)

Thank you @Becky1951


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## Pauline1954 (Aug 31, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I wish you could too because otherwise, it's just not very believable. And you heard someone from an HR and doctor something else that's undocumented? Well, do they have names? Your maiden name wasn't Information or was it?
> 
> Sorry but I think that Mr Einstein is more credible.


Ive posted several links with articles because readers didnt want to think i maybe posting something truthful. Im not the guru of searchers. We all are responsible to ourselves by ourselves.  Try google and duckduckgo.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> Ive posted several links with articles because readers didnt want to think i maybe posting something truthful. Im not the guru of searchers. We all are responsible to ourselves by ourselves.  Try google and duckduckgo.


*Google search for someone from an HR

Google search for doctor*

I tried as you suggested but I'm having trouble still finding your sources.


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## Pauline1954 (Aug 31, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> *Google search for someone from an HR
> 
> Google search for doctor*
> 
> I tried as you suggested but I'm having trouble still finding your sources.


Im in the middle of making dinner and caring for my hubby. He has shingles 

Do a search on the information you want know. See what comes up.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> Im in the middle of making dinner and caring for my hubby. He has shingles
> 
> Do a search on the information you want know. See what comes up.


That's unfortunate about your hubby, I hope his situation improves. Others have researched and documented their information. Yours seemed to me new but I think I'm pretty good with what's documented already. If you _hear_ anything more though ...


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## Becky1951 (Aug 31, 2021)

Updated info for Massachusetts.

Mass. Has 3,704 New Breakthrough Cases, 13 More COVID Deaths Among Vaccinated​
Massachusetts health officials on Tuesday reported more than 3,700 new breakthrough cases over the past week and 13 more deaths.

In the last week, 3,074 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 80 more people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. That brings the total to 19,443 cases and 144 deaths in people with breakthrough infections.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coro...3-more-covid-deaths-among-vaccinated/2480710/


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## suds00 (Aug 31, 2021)

everyone thinks that they have the answer.the virus doesn't care.it's only concern is with being stopped.we've always depended on the science available to stop maladies and disasters and not tried to one-up the other indicating that we know more than the other guy. whatever scientists' develope which works is fine by me.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Updated info for Massachusetts.
> 
> Mass. Has 3,704 New Breakthrough Cases, 13 More COVID Deaths Among Vaccinated​
> Massachusetts health officials on Tuesday reported more than 3,700 new breakthrough cases over the past week and 13 more deaths.
> ...


From your source, thanks for making it clickable too, very nice!

Both figures remain a tiny percentage of the total number of all people who have been vaccinated -- just 0.01% of vaccinated people are hospitalized, and 0.43% have been infected. An even smaller percentage has died: 0.003%. The report also doesn't indicate how many of the breakthrough cases are in people with underlying conditions, though it also notes that "may be undercounted due to discrepancies" in records.


While vaccinated people are getting COVID-19, the virus' effects are severely blunted in them, and breakthrough cases rarely lead to hospitalizations or deaths. That's why public health officials worldwide continue to stress the importance of vaccination. (If you still need to be vaccinated, here's a tool to find the closest vaccination provider to your home.)


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## win231 (Aug 31, 2021)

suds00 said:


> everyone thinks that they have the answer.the virus doesn't care.it's only concern is with being stopped.we've always depended on the science available to stop maladies and disasters and not tried to one-up the other indicating that we know more than the other guy. whatever scientists' develope which works is fine by me.


Everyone who blames the spread of Covid on those who choose not to get vaccinated is _"One-Upping."_


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## Don M. (Aug 31, 2021)

It's interesting that the OP'r is posting data from Mass, Oregon and Illinois.  I wonder if she has done any research on her local State, Tennessee. 

If not, here's a good place to get started.
https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov.html

It appears that Tennessee is among the states with the lowest vaccination rates....And the highest incidents of infection.  Could there possibly be a correlation????


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## Becky1951 (Aug 31, 2021)

Don M. said:


> It's interesting that the OP'r is posting data from Mass, Oregon and Illinois.  I wonder if she has done any research on her local State, Tennessee.
> 
> If not, here's a good place to get started.
> https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov.html
> ...


I am posting the states that are reporting breakthrough cases resulting in deaths. Not my fault TN hasn't publicly reported that information at this time.  You seem to think I have some nefarious reason for reporting only certain states.  

Low vaccination, high vaccination states doesn't matter, since I am only posting article related to the breakthrough deaths.


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## Becky1951 (Aug 31, 2021)

15 states are keeping COVID-19 breakthrough cases under wraps​
State health departments across the country are taking various approaches to how they keep records on COVID-19 breakthrough cases, with 15 states deciding not to publish any data on the rare incidents.

An analysis by The Hill found that 35 states have disclosed some data on fully vaccinated people who later contracted COVID-19. The information ranged from a one-time percentage of residents who experienced a breakthrough infection to weekly detailed overviews broken down by demographics such as age, sex and race.

Figures on breakthrough cases are not available on the health department websites, social media or other publicly accessible sites for the other 15 states: Florida, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas and Wisconsin.

The Hill reached out to the health departments of all 15 states for comment. A handful of states, including New York, Texas and Wisconsin, provided the numbers upon request.

Alicia Shoults, a spokesperson for the Ohio Department of Health, told The Hill that the agency plans to publish a dashboard with breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths Friday. 

Of the states already reporting data, Utah topped the list, with 0.36 percent or 5,265 breakthrough cases in its 1,462,313 fully vaccinated residents from Jan. 16 until this week. In that period, the state reported approximately 115,000 coronavirus cases.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) stopped monitoring nonsevere breakthrough cases in May.

Some states have followed the CDC in publicly reporting breakthrough hospitalizations and deaths but not the total number of cases.

*Tennessee’s Department of Health references the CDC’s policy in its critical indicator reports, where breakthrough cases with severe outcomes are regularly included. As of July 29, the state had reported 31 breakthrough deaths and 218 breakthrough hospitalizations.

"Tennessee’s Department of Health references the CDC’s policy in its critical indicator reports, where breakthrough cases with severe outcomes are regularly included. As of July 29, the state had reported 31 breakthrough deaths and 218 breakthrough hospitalizations."

"Like many other states, Tennessee does not specify when it started collecting COVID-19 breakthrough data."*

Illinois, too, only reports breakthrough infections that result in hospitalization or death. Its department of public health said the approach will “maximize the quality of the data collected on cases of greatest clinical and public health importance.”

On Wednesday, Illinois reported 714 breakthrough hospitalizations and 180 deaths, representing 2.58 percent of COVID-19 deaths since data collection began in January.

The state is one of a handful that feature breakthrough case data on their COVID-19 dashboards, joining Virginia, Maryland, Idaho, Indiana, Utah and the District of Columbia. Either through those dashboards or separate report summaries, 18 states publish data on breakthrough infections regularly. Although most updates are weekly, Idaho’s are the most frequent, revised every weekday, while Oregon publishes breakthrough numbers monthly.

The CDC announced in May it would only investigate and publish COVID-19 breakthrough cases that result in hospitalization or death. The change was intended to “help maximize the quality of the data collected on cases of greatest clinical and public health importance,” the agency said.

Nationally, an exceedingly low number of fully vaccinated people have contracted the virus. Out of the 101 million people vaccinated from January through April, the CDC reported 10,262 breakthrough infections in 46 U.S. states and territories. The agency’s latest update, on July 26, identified 6,239 hospitalizations and 1,263 deaths, about a quarter of which were asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19.

Across the board, the rate of breakthrough cases among those fully vaccinated was less than 0.5 percent for the 29 states that disclosed their full tallies, backing up the message from public health officials that COVID-19 vaccines are very effective at slowing infection.

One in three COVID-19 cases nationwide last week occurred in Florida and Texas, Jeff Zients, the White House's COVID-19 response coordinator, said at a White House briefing Tuesday. He emphasized that places with higher vaccination rates generally have lower COVID-19 case counts, including breakthrough infections. 

“While vaccinated people can spread the virus if they get a breakthrough infection, the odds of them getting sick in the first place are far lower than those who are unvaccinated,” Zients said.

He added that the seven states with the lowest vaccination rates accounted for more than 17 percent of cases, despite representing only 8 percent of Americans. All of those states have put out reports on breakthrough infections.

But even when states do not release figures, some counties have tracked the cases themselves.

In Shawnee County, where Kansas’s capital is located, despite the weekly cases quadrupling in the past month, the local health department has documented only 91 breakthrough cases, just 0.1 percent of its 77,500 fully vaccinated residents.

On the flip side, Southern Nevada Health District’s weekly updates indicate that breakthrough hospitalizations in Clark County have steadily trended upward, from 30 in June to 178 in mid-July.

Many major cities have provided their own status reports as well.

New York City’s health department said July 14 that its breakthrough statistics show the vaccination campaign has proved successful. Just 1.1 percent of all 500,302 COVID-19 cases were in those who were fully vaccinated.

A total of 94 fully vaccinated New Yorkers died from the virus between January and mid-June, compared with 8,069 deaths, and 98.4 percent of hospitalizations were among the unvaccinated.

The Houston Health Department posted a graphic on Facebook that said 0.092 percent of fully vaccinated Houstonians developed breakthrough cases positive for COVID-19 as of July 23. It confirmed six breakthrough deaths, each in patients who were severely immunocompromised or had preexisting conditions.

After the Boston Herald used a Freedom of Information Act request to report there had been 3,907 infections and 71 deaths in fully vaccinated Massachusetts residents, Sen. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) urged the CDC to monitor all of these cases. Previously, the Department of Public Health had disclosed data on breakthrough cases only once, in a memo on the state website.

“As of May 24, 2021, there had been 3,343 instances of COVID-19 infection in over 2.9 million fully vaccinated individuals (a rate of 0.11%),” wrote Catherine M. Brown, the state epidemiologist, and the department’s medical director, Larry Madoff.

In a July 22 letter to CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, Markey asked why the agency announced “that it would no longer require states to report information to the CDC on breakthrough cases that do not require hospitalization,” and asked which states are still collecting data on such cases.

At a briefing the next day, White House press secretary Jen Psaki said the 
CDC actively tracks breakthrough cases through cohort studies, which involve “tens of thousands of people across the country” working in health care and long-term care facilities. 

“CDC also collects what they call ‘passive surveillance,’ which is where hospitals provide CDC with data when they identify someone who is hospitalized but has been vaccinated,” Psaki said.

Due to inconsistent tracking and underreported asymptomatic breakthroughs, health experts caution that the breakthrough data publicly available is likely incomplete.

Still, Céline Gounder, a professor at NYU’s Grossman School of Medicine and a member of the Biden-Harris Transition COVID-19 Advisory Board, said studying breakthrough data helps us understand who is not responding as well to vaccines, which settings present a higher risk for infection, and what characteristics make certain variants more immune-evading.


She also said the new CDC guidelines, which recommend that even fully vaccinated Americans wear masks in areas with high transmission of the virus, are “partly a reaction to breakthrough infections.”

“The concern is that these people with breakthrough infections could be transmitting onward, could be contributing to community transmission,” Gounder told The Hill. “It’s not that that individual is going to get sick and die ... it's that we're worried what that infection could mean for others around them.”

Groups with weaker immune responses to the vaccine — organ transplant recipients, people receiving immunosuppressive therapy for cancer, or those over the age of 80 — are at a higher risk of developing a severe or deadly breakthrough case.

For the states that provided detailed demographic data, the median age of people who died from a breakthrough infection was 79 for Indiana, 81 for Ohio and 82.5 for Washington.

Robert Wachter, chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of San Francisco, thinks some of the concern about contracting a breakthrough infection is valid and supports the CDC’s mask recommendations.

“Is it something that should cause you to worry that you're going to die? No, but concerned enough,” he said. “I think that for vaccinated people to go back to mask-wearing indoors is a completely rational response to the information as it’s played out over the last few weeks.”

Nahid Bhadelia, professor at Boston University’s Center for Emerging Infectious Diseases, said the CDC should test and track all symptomatic breakthrough cases, whether they lead to hospitalization or not.

But she also said the delta variant may have “changed the equation,” pointing to a new study in China that shows people infected with delta had about 1,000 times more virus in their bodies compared to the original strain.

“With the delta variant, you may get continued protection for severe disease, hospitalizations, and deaths, but you may get potentially more breakthroughs and more symptomatic breakthroughs,” she said. “The vaccines are still doing what they’re supposed to do.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...-keeping-covid-breakthrough-cases-under-wraps


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## John cycling (Sep 1, 2021)

win231 said:


> Everyone who blames the spread of Covid on those who choose not to get vaccinated is _"One-Upping."_



They completely ignore the fact that all the people getting sick and having issues have been getting the vaccinations, and the fact that so far not even one unvaccinated person has ever died nor even gotten sick from a virus.  I've even seen posts on here of people being deathly sick in the hospital for weeks and months after getting the vaccinations, but they said it wasn't because of the vaccinations!  Oh no.  It was because they had a covid19 virus!   

The basic truth of this whole fiasco is that *the imaginary virus has never been isolated*.
Therefore, saying that people died from it can't be true either.  And I've never found any evidence that anyone has.
The statement on virus isolation, <--
A look at Koch's Postulates <-- and virus isolation;
A complete refutation <-- of the whole virus theory house of cards.

In contrast, there is plenty of evidence about the damages and deaths from the vaccinations.
Ryan Cole, M.D. - "Covid-19 Vaccines and Autopsy" <--
Numerous reports of Covid-19 vaccination deaths and failures. <-- plus CDC coverups of the deaths.


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## Sunny (Sep 1, 2021)

John cycling said:


> They completely ignore the fact that all the people getting sick and having issues have been getting the vaccinations, and the fact that so far not even one unvaccinated person has ever died nor even gotten sick from a virus.
> 
> I've even seen posts on here of people being deathly sick in the hospital for weeks and months after getting the vaccinations, but they said it wasn't because of the vaccinations!  Oh no.  It was because they had a covid19 virus!


All the people getting sick are the vaccinated ones, and not even one unvaccinated person has ever died or gotten sick from a virus?

John, I get it now. You are writing a work of fiction!


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## Buckeye (Sep 1, 2021)

John cycling said:


> They completely ignore the fact that all the people getting sick and having issues have been getting the vaccinations, and the fact that so far not even one unvaccinated person has ever died nor even gotten sick from a virus.
> 
> I've even seen posts on here of people being deathly sick in the hospital for weeks and months after getting the vaccinations, but they said it wasn't because of the vaccinations!  Oh no.  It was because they had a covid19 virus!   kn


According to folks who actually know what they are talking about, globally, over 4.5 MILLION people have died from COVID-19.  That number includes ~640,000 here in the US, two of which were my cousin and her husband.

Not sure why folks insist on posting such moronic nonsense.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 1, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Not sure why folks insist on posting such moronic nonsense.



Probably due to a bit of a vacuum between their ears.


----------



## fmdog44 (Sep 1, 2021)

There are three types of lies, lies, damn lies and statistics.


----------



## WhatInThe (Sep 2, 2021)

win231 said:


> Everyone who blames the spread of Covid on those who choose not to get vaccinated is _"One-Upping."_


The vaxxed seem to be carrying the same viral load and can transmit as much as the unvaxxed

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2021)

Our Premier and the Chief Medical Officer give extended briefings on TV and radio every day at 11.00am. We are informed about the number of new confirmed cases discovered in the previous 24 hours (from extensive Covid testing), where they are located in terms of local government areas, how many people are hospitalised, how many in intensive are and how many have died. With each death announced we are given the age range and vaccination status of the deceased. She reports on the number of vaccinations and swabs in the previous 24 hours and gives us the percentage of people who are partially and fully vaccinated.

Then we get a pep talk about social distancing, wearing masks and changes to restrictions for movement and social interaction. After that the Deputy Premier gives an update on the situation in rural NSW and the Minister for Health talks about the hospital situation with respect to capacity and availability of ICU beds.

At each press conference the reporters grill the speakers with questions.

Then if we wish we can hear the same kind of report from every other state premier and health team. We can hardly complain about lack of information.

Each day I hear that a handful of people have died. The younger ones are mostly unvaccinated and the vaccinated ones tend to be elderly with "underlying health issues".

As time goes on and more and more people achieve full vaccination status it is inevitable that we will see more breakthrough infections and less unvaccinated new cases for the simple reason that the ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated people will be 4:1 when we hit our target of 80% (or better) fully vaccinated. It's simply the underlying mathematics.


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 2, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> _*I will be posting articles related to Covid breakthrough cases and deaths. Or articles of vaccine related deaths as I come across them.
> 
> I will not respond to any snarky, hateful comments of those wishing to bait me into an argument. I will not respond to comments insinuating I don't know how to research information as I actually do know how. I will not respond to any name calling comments directed at me. I will not respond to any comments implying I am uneducated and/or do not understand the severity of Covid.  *_
> 
> ...



And in that same time period, how many unvaccinated people have died from covid?


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 2, 2021)

Sunny said:


> All the people getting sick are the vaccinated ones, and not even one unvaccinated person has ever died or gotten sick from a virus?
> 
> John, I get it now. You are writing a work of fiction!


And fantasy!


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 2, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> The vaxxed seem to be carrying the same viral load and can transmit as much as the unvaxxed
> 
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus


That's a possibility, no doubt but the vaxxed are fewer in numbers than the unvaxxed in being infected. And the vaxxed *likely were infected in the first place* by the unvaxxed because there are many more infected unvaxxed than vaxxed. It's not rocket science. At least not to most.


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 17, 2021)

Breakthrough COVID Cases in Mass. Now Approaching 30,000​
The Department of Public Health has tracked a cumulative 27,777 confirmed COVID-19 infections among those fully vaccinated in the state to date and a total of 194 deaths.

Breakthrough infections again accounted for about 40% of all cases reported in Massachusetts last week.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/breakthrough-covid-cases-in-mass-now-approaching-30000/2492577/


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 17, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Breakthrough COVID Cases in Mass. Now Approaching 30,000​
> The Department of Public Health has tracked a cumulative 27,777 confirmed COVID-19 infections among those fully vaccinated in the state to date and a total of 194 deaths.
> 
> Breakthrough infections again accounted for about 40% of all cases reported in Massachusetts last week.
> ...


That means that about 60% of ALL cases reported in Massachusetts last week were _NOT_ breakthrough cases then. 

This was copied directly from your source -

"Although the numbers of breakthrough cases appear daunting at first glance, it’s important to keep them in perspective—*people who are vaccinated are still are far lower risk of becoming infected and needing to be hospitalized*," Kuritzkes said. (Emphasis is mine, grammar errors are posted verbatim from cited source)

More info on breakthrough cases from AARP here - *8 Things You Must Know About Breakthrough COVID-19 Infections *


----------



## Don M. (Sep 17, 2021)

And then, there is Tennessee....which is having one of the worst track records in the nation...and, the world.   

https://www.nashvillepost.com/busin...cle_bf01acba-0cb0-11ec-b291-3ff625146132.html


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> And then, there is Tennessee....which is having one of the worst track records in the nation...and, the world.
> 
> https://www.nashvillepost.com/busin...cle_bf01acba-0cb0-11ec-b291-3ff625146132.html


Wow your really stuck on TN LOL.  This thread is about *breakthrough cases*, but apparently because I live in TN you want to do what? Blame me or my state? I remember not that long ago Missouri being in the news about high numbers of infected.


----------



## chic (Sep 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> There seems to be little value in trying to convince some of our people that this Virus is Not a Hoax, or that the Vaccines substantially lower the risk of serious illness or death.  It seems that some of these people only change their minds when they are lying in an ICU.
> 
> In the interim, these fixed attitudes are stretching our nations medical personnel and facilities to their limits, running up massive medical costs, and preventing people who need care for other conditions from getting the care they need.


Stop firing medical personnel for not getting vaccinated could help with that.


----------



## chic (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Breakthrough COVID Cases in Mass. Now Approaching 30,000​
> The Department of Public Health has tracked a cumulative 27,777 confirmed COVID-19 infections among those fully vaccinated in the state to date and a total of 194 deaths.
> 
> Breakthrough infections again accounted for about 40% of all cases reported in Massachusetts last week.
> ...


Yes, this was the number I heard also the other day so thanks Becky . And the governor is looking into mandating the vaccine, ie passports soon. This makes no sense at all.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Wow your really stuck on TN LOL.  This thread is about *breakthrough cases*, but apparently because I live in TN you want to do what? Blame me or my state? I remember not that long ago Missouri being in the news about high numbers of infected.



Yup, since you seem to be "Stuck" on Massachusetts, you might want to do more research on your own State.  There are certainly some "breakthrough" cases....all over the nation, but the vast majority of people who elect to get the vaccine have little or no side effects.  Compare the number of "breakthrough" cases with the number of those Unvaccinated who are dying and clogging up our hospitals.  

If people continue to downplay the effectiveness of these vaccines, and refuse to get the shots, this Virus is Never going to be resolved, and the effects on our economy and our health care systems will only continue to get worse.  

Eventually, and probably fairly soon, the unvaccinated are going to force more restrictions being placed on everyone.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 18, 2021)

chic said:


> Stop firing medical personnel for not getting vaccinated could help with that.


If there are medical personnel who have seen the effects of this virus, and continue to downplay it, and refuse to get vaccinated, they Deserve to be Fired.  I certainly wouldn't want to go to a doctor, dentist, etc., who thinks this virus is a Hoax.


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Yup, since you seem to be "Stuck" on Massachusetts, you might want to do more research on your own State.  There are certainly some "breakthrough" cases....all over the nation, but the vast majority of people who elect to get the vaccine have little or no side effects.  Compare the number of "breakthrough" cases with the number of those Unvaccinated who are dying and clogging up our hospitals.
> 
> If people continue to downplay the effectiveness of these vaccines, and refuse to get the shots, this Virus is Never going to be resolved, and the effects on our economy and our health care systems will only continue to get worse.
> 
> Eventually, and probably fairly soon, the unvaccinated are going to force more restrictions being placed on everyone.


I'm not stuck on Massachusetts. Its the state that was in the news yesterday with their updated numbers of breakthrough cases Don. Its not my fault other states are not keeping updated or if they are they are not broadcasting it   I can't post updated news on breakthrough cases, if its not in the news, I don't search it out, I just post what pops up in my daily news. When some of the other states report in the news I will update or add them here in this thread. Good grief, I'm not intentionally hiding Tennessee. Like other states the numbers are rising.


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> If there are medical personnel who have seen the effects of this virus, and continue to downplay it, and refuse to get vaccinated, they Deserve to be Fired.  I certainly wouldn't want to go to a doctor, dentist, etc., who thinks this virus is a Hoax.


No, they deserve to be allowed to be tested and keep working as long as they are negative. Some have immunity due to already having had Covid.  Some don't want the vaccine period and that is their choice, not yours or anyone else.

I wouldn't want to be treated by any medical professional thinking the virus is a hoax either.


----------



## Don M. (Sep 18, 2021)

chic said:


> Stop firing medical personnel for not getting vaccinated could help with that.



The REAL tragedy surrounding this virus is when a person suffers a severe issue....stroke, heart attack, cancer, etc.....and can't find a hospital to treat them...because the hospitals are so full of Covid "deniers".  Often these people have to be transported to hospitals many miles away, and quite likely suffer even more, due to the delays in getting treated.    

If I were "King", I would have the hospitals set up a big tent in the parking lot, and have a couple of nurses...dressed in full HazMat uniforms...going from cot to cot administering doses of Morphine to these selfish and stupid unvaccinated people who thought this virus was a "conspiracy", and let nature take its course.  

Those who manage to survive this virus all seem to have a common denominator when they are interviewed...."I wish I had been smart enough to get vaccinated"


----------



## Don M. (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Its not my fault other states are not keeping updated or if they are they are not broadcasting it   I can't post updated news on breakthrough cases, if its not in the news, I don't search it out, I just post what pops up in my daily news.



If you want to see how Tennessee is doing, just do a search on "Tennessee Breakthrough Cases"....there are several reports on the Internet, if your local news doesn't consider these statistics "newsworthy".

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...h-covid-19-cases-two-deaths-report/ar-AAMtnF0


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> If you want to see how Tennessee is doing, just do a search on "Tennessee Breakthrough Cases"....there are several reports on the Internet, if your local news doesn't consider these statistics "newsworthy".
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...h-covid-19-cases-two-deaths-report/ar-AAMtnF0


*July 23rd*.

"Tennessee Department of Health reported more than 1,000 "breakthrough" cases, meaning cases in which fully vaccinated people have contracted the virus.  Of those cases, 27 people have died."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...h-covid-19-cases-two-deaths-report/ar-AAMtnF0

Posted: Aug 11, 2021 / 06:31 AM CDT / *Updated: Aug 11*, 2021 / 05:16 AM CDT

More than a thousand breakthrough cases have been reported in Tennessee. 272 required hospitalization, and 39 fully vaccinated people have died, according to the latest data from the State Health Department.

https://www.wreg.com/news/some-tenn...id-breakthrough-cases-says-vanderbilt-doctor/


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> More than a thousand breakthrough cases have been reported in Tennessee. 272 required hospitalization, and 39 fully vaccinated people have died, according to the latest data from the State Health Department.


This is unfortunate, but the more important question is how does the rate of breakthrough infections compare to the rate amongst the unvaccinated?  The data I have seen suggests it is still significantly lower.


----------



## chic (Sep 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is unfortunate, but the more important question is how does the rate of breakthrough infections compare to the rate amongst the unvaccinated?  The data I have seen suggests it is still significantly lower.


Unvaccinated people don't get breakthrough infections. Breakthrough infection happens only in the vaccinated. Unvaccinated people can catch covid but it's not a breakthrough. Breakthrough is a term to describe the fully vaccinated who then catch covid anyway. It's supposed to imply unusual because this shouldn't happen.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> *July 23rd*.
> 
> "Tennessee Department of Health reported more than 1,000 "breakthrough" cases, meaning cases in which fully vaccinated people have contracted the virus.  Of those cases, 27 people have died."
> 
> ...


He’s referring to patients who have been vaccinated. More than a thousand breakthrough cases have been reported in Tennessee. 272 required hospitalization, and 39 fully vaccinated people have died, according to the latest data from the State Health Department.

*“We are yet to see a breakthrough case in the ICU at Vanderbilt – that is somebody that is a healthy person that is vaccinated.” Dr. Rice says, “The breakthrough cases that we are seeing all have significant medical problems – specifically some sort of immunosuppression.”

He says those immune suppressed in the ICU contracted the virus from a family member or friend.

So, Dr. Rice urges those who interact with a compromised person to also get vaccinated.*

Bold text taken from the same article.


----------



## Becky1951 (Sep 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is unfortunate, but the more important question is how does the rate of breakthrough infections compare to the rate amongst the unvaccinated?  The data I have seen suggests it is still significantly lower.


More important is the *purpose of this thread* I started. Its important to remember even vaccinated people can and do still get Covid, still become sick enough to be hospitalized, sick enough to die. The numbers are rising for the vaccinated getting and dying of Covid.   

When I see an article giving that information I post it here in this tread. If anyone isn't interested in those numbers scroll on.  If all anyone is interest in is the numbers of infections and deaths of the unvaccinated, scroll on, that's not what this thread is about, that information is blasted in all news, this treads information isn't, its just a blurb here and there. Yet its real, sadly its happening.


----------



## John cycling (Sep 18, 2021)

Ever since the time of Pasteur, there have always been terrible effects from the poisonous vaccinations, such as autism and other debilitating conditions in children, dementia and alzheimers in seniors, death, pneumonia, heart and circulatory issues, cancer and amputations in all ages, just to mention a few of them.

*In contrast, I have never found any scientifically credible evidence of even one healthy person ever being harmed by a virus.*  Vaccination corporation lies and propaganda news reports are not scientific evidence.

The important things to me are (1) having a healthy constitution and a healthy immunity, (2) preventing undesirable environmental toxins including toxic petrochemical drugs from entering the body, and (3) eliminating toxic substances from the body by the natural protective means of free breathing, perspiration, and the other normal means of elimination.

The current mandates violate these conditions of health, and are causing people to become sick and unhealthy.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 18, 2021)




----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 18, 2021)




----------



## win231 (Sep 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is unfortunate, but the more important question is how does the rate of breakthrough infections compare to the rate amongst the unvaccinated?  The data I have seen suggests it is still significantly lower.


There is nothing easier than manipulating data to sell more vaccines.  It's so common in medical studies, there is a name for it:  _"Data Torturing."_
It's also commonly used in drug studies to exaggerate benefits & minimize risks.
From the New England Journal of Medicine:
_“If you torture your data long enough, they will tell you whatever you want to hear” has become a popular observation in our office. In plain English, this means that study data, if manipulated in enough different ways, can be made to prove whatever the investigator wants to prove."_

Another common technique:  When people involved in the study start getting sick & dying, stop the study & publish only the good results up to that point.
A well-known doctor wrote a book about it:  _"Worried Sick - a Prescription For Health in an Overtreated America." _ Nortin M. Hadler, M.D.


----------



## Lawrence00 (Sep 18, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Wow your really stuck on TN LOL.  This thread is about *breakthrough cases*, but apparently because I live in TN you want to do what? Blame me or my state? I remember not that long ago Missouri being in the news about high numbers of infected.


Yes, the television stations wished massive death upon Missouri because of delta. It didn't happen. The case count has always been a useless and political imaginary number.


----------



## Ladybj (Sep 18, 2021)

chic said:


> Unvaccinated people don't get breakthrough infections. Breakthrough infection happens only in the vaccinated. Unvaccinated people can catch covid but it's not a breakthrough. Breakthrough is a term to describe the fully vaccinated who then catch covid anyway. It's supposed to imply unusual because this shouldn't happen.


YESSSSS.... On Point!!!!


----------



## Ladybj (Sep 18, 2021)

I keep hearing and reading that vaccinated people are spreading the different variants.  Not sure if this is true.


----------



## Lawrence00 (Sep 18, 2021)

chic said:


> Yes, this was the number I heard also the other day so thanks Becky . And the governor is looking into mandating the vaccine, ie passports soon. This makes no sense at all.


They made up this word "breakthrough", the experimental vaccines simply do not work for thousands, maybe millions of people.

I wish they did. But they don't. Make a hard right turn to a hardcore healthy lifestyle for the best chance to survive covid, and the next virus that floats down the street.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2021)

John cycling said:


> In contrast, I have never found any scientifically credible evidence of even one healthy person ever being harmed by a virus.


I am surprised that you have posted this sentence. Some viruses are quite deadly to people, healthy or not. Diseases like measles caused devastation to indigenous peoples when colonisation by Europeans occurred. Measles still has the power to cause death to some unvaccinated children but compared to some other viral diseases this is now a rare occurrence. Below is some text taken from Live Science that discusses more recent viruses that have taken many lives from when they first appeared until the present day.



> Scientists identified Marburg virus in 1967, when small outbreaks occurred among lab workers in Germany who were exposed to infected monkeys imported from Uganda. Marburg virus is similar to Ebola in that both can cause hemorrhagic fever, meaning that infected people develop high fevers and bleeding throughout the body that can lead to shock, organ failure and death. The mortality rate in the first outbreak was 25%, but it was more than 80% in the 1998-2000 outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo, as well as in the 2005 outbreak in Angola,.
> 
> The first known Ebola outbreaks in humans struck simultaneously in the Republic of the Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo in 1976. Ebola is spread through contact with blood or other body fluids, or tissue from infected people or animals. The known strains vary dramatically in their deadliness. One strain, Ebola Reston, doesn't even make people sick. But for the Bundibugyo strain, the fatality rate is up to 50%, and it is up to 71% for the Sudan strain.
> 
> ...





> The deadliest viruses in history | Live Science


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

win231 said:


> There is nothing easier than manipulating data to sell more vaccines. It's so common in medical studies, there is a name for it: _"Data Torturing."_
> It's also commonly used in drug studies to exaggerate benefits & minimize risks.
> From the New England Journal of Medicine:
> _“If you torture your data long enough, they will tell you whatever you want to hear” has become a popular observation in our office. In plain English, this means that study data, if manipulated in enough different ways, can be made to prove whatever the investigator wants to prove."_


What do you trust and how do you decide?  

Are you suggesting the British Medical Journal article I cited in post 17 above is subject to "data torturing"?  The BMJ is a well respected scientific journal, much like the New England Journal of Medicine you cite.  Journals like this require a significant degree of independent peer review, disclosure of author affiliations and any kind of potential conflict of interest.  They also accept rebuttal articles from people who question the interpretations and conclusions of the authors.  Still a few things slip between the cracks, but not much.  And what does is often caught.  Any scientist found to have "tortured data" is usually screened out of such publications and if not later identified.  It can be a career ending thing.

If you don't believe sources like this what do you believe?


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Ever since the time of Pasteur, there have always been terrible effects from the poisonous vaccinations, such as autism and other debilitating conditions in children, dementia and alzheimers in seniors, death, pneumonia, heart and circulatory issues, cancer and amputations in all ages, just to mention a few of them.
> 
> *In contrast, I have never found any scientifically credible evidence of even one healthy person ever being harmed by a virus.*  Vaccination corporation lies and propaganda news reports are not scientific evidence.
> 
> ...


Thanks John, you have made clear the reasons you don't believe Covid is a real problem and why you don't believe the vaccine makes sense.  I can't say that I agree, but knowing what you are thinking helps.  I will have to study your thoughts and logic a bit.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Not sure why folks insist on posting such moronic nonsense.


Actually I appreciate John's openness and honesty on this.  I don't agree with him, but I think he represents what a lot of people believe.  

Understanding this gives us the chance to think about it and possibly educate.  And who knows he might even change some of our thinking a bit.  I believe we need to do our best to respect and listen to him, and others who don't agree with us.


----------



## suds00 (Sep 19, 2021)

chic said:


> Unvaccinated people don't get breakthrough infections. Breakthrough infection happens only in the vaccinated. Unvaccinated people can catch covid but it's not a breakthrough. Breakthrough is a term to describe the fully vaccinated who then catch covid anyway. It's supposed to imply unusual because this shouldn't happen.


unvaccinated people get more infections and they are more severe infections than the vaccinated people who get breakthrough infections. the vaccines work like they are supposed to work. if one is vaccinated and gets the disease the disease is generally milder and less likely to cause death.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 19, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Actually I appreciate John's openness and honesty on this.  I don't agree with him, but I think he represents what a lot of people believe.
> 
> Understanding this gives us the chance to think about it and possibly educate.  And who knows he might even change some of our thinking a bit.  I believe we need to do our best to respect and listen to him, and others who don't agree with us.


lol - And I assume you appreciate folks who think the earth is flat, who believe that the Moon landings were a hoax that was filmed in Hollywood, who believe Jackie was behind the assassination of JFK because of his philandering, and, of course, that XXXXXXX was cheated out of the XXXXXXX  in XXXX.

Certainly, the science regarding Covid-19 will continue to evolve, and some things we believe today will change.  That's the way science works.  But some things, like the existence of viruses, are beyond dispute within the scientific community.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

A lot of people believe like John, I have friends and family who do.  Listening and understanding helps me.


Buckeye said:


> I assume you appreciate folks who think the earth is flat


Isn't it?  LOL!  I think these folks are fewer...


----------



## John cycling (Sep 19, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> What do you trust and how do you decide?



Thank you for your thoughtful postings.  
You do your own research and trust yourself.  "To thine own self be true."



Alligatorob said:


> Are you suggesting the British Medical Journal article I cited in post 17 above is subject to "data torturing"?



Yes, because they were created and are controlled by the Rockefeller Foundation petroleum cartel which took over the AMA in 1900 and turned it into a petro-chemical drug industry.  One of their first products was a concoction of cocaine and coal tar oil promoted as a cure for cancer.

People whose only evidence is repeating their propaganda and making spurious personal attacks are easily fooled by them.


----------



## win231 (Sep 19, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> What do you trust and how do you decide?
> 
> Are you suggesting the British Medical Journal article I cited in post 17 above is subject to "data torturing"?  The BMJ is a well respected scientific journal, much like the New England Journal of Medicine you cite.  Journals like this require a significant degree of independent peer review, disclosure of author affiliations and any kind of potential conflict of interest.  They also accept rebuttal articles from people who question the interpretations and conclusions of the authors.  Still a few things slip between the cracks, but not much.  And what does is often caught.  Any scientist found to have "tortured data" is usually screened out of such publications and if not later identified.  It can be a career ending thing.
> 
> If you don't believe sources like this what do you believe?


I keep in mind that medicine has very little to do with patient care; it's a business.  When things don't add up or make sense, they aren't true.
And when we're lied to, (as we have been since the beginning of this pandemic), I view the numbers with suspicion.  That doesn't mean I don't think Covid exists; it means they're exaggerating & creating fear for profit.


----------



## Pauline1954 (Sep 19, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I wish you could too because otherwise, it's just not very believable. And you heard someone from an HR and doctor something else that's undocumented? Well, do they have names? Your maiden name wasn't Information or was it?
> 
> Sorry but I think that Mr Einstein is more credible.




It makes no difference whether I find it or not, post or not. You have your mind set to what you will and wont believe from whom.


----------



## Pauline1954 (Sep 19, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> And in that same time period, how many unvaccinated people have died from covid?


Its hard to say now. Because CDC is now counting those that get the vaccination and die within 2 week are counted as unvaccinated. So, how many have died after being vaccinated is a more accurate question. It would show the vaccination is poison not a vaccination in my opinion. But, everyone has one.


----------



## Pauline1954 (Sep 19, 2021)

win231 said:


> I keep in mind that medicine has very little to do with patient care; it's a business.  When things don't add up or make sense, they aren't true.
> And when we're lied to, (as we have been since the beginning of this pandemic), I view the numbers with suspicion.  That doesn't mean I don't think Covid exists; it means they're exaggerating & creating fear for profit.


Correct. Id prefer to scared with facts rather than time pass by and see the facts are changed with the political winds. Then we start getting confused, head starts spinning because in a mind that works logically the order gets scrambled.  Thats what gets me. Changes for no reason giving. Who like turning on a dime when all we need is genuine facts. This way we actually would know we are doing what needs to be done.  So, as things come out I have to rearranged all the verbage and noise so I can right myself. Sort of like having a v-8.  If it doenst make sense Im not buying into it.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

win231 said:


> I keep in mind that medicine has very little to do with patient care; it's a business. When things don't add up or make sense, they aren't true.
> And when we're lied to, (as we have been since the beginning of this pandemic), I view the numbers with suspicion. That doesn't mean I don't think Covid exists; it means they're exaggerating & creating fear for profit.


I agree that the medical industry is all about money and profit, it has to be.  You could argue that most all of science has been about money and profit, selling some product, getting your research funded, whatever.  But still we have managed to make a lot of progress, and I believe the peer review process has really helped with that.  Sorting through it all can be hard...


----------



## WhatInThe (Sep 19, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> Its hard to say now. Because CDC is now counting those that get the vaccination and die within 2 week are counted as unvaccinated. So, how many have died after being vaccinated is a more accurate question. It would show the vaccination is poison not a vaccination in my opinion. But, everyone has one.


Exactly. Same for those with one of two doses.  The vaxxes will produce a positive result. There should be a seperate or different category for those with 1 of 2 doses or hasn't been 2 weeks since the final shot. Partially vaxxed?


----------



## Pauline1954 (Sep 19, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Exactly. Same for those with one of two doses.  The vaxxes will produce a positive result. There should be a seperate or different category for those with 1 of 2 doses or hasn't been 2 weeks since the final shot. Partially vaxxed?


Yes. Now thats science gathering and they do like science, right?


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> Yes. Now thats science gathering and they do like science, right?


Science is cool but obstinance, not so much.   





it’s a pandemic, meaning a _worldwide_ problem, because, science!


----------



## Bellbird (Sep 19, 2021)

> All efforts to defeat this virus, which is all of our enemy, are met with resistance, hostility, and mockery. I find this truly astonishing


Amen to that. It beggars belief. Underlying conditions are often the cause of death, not the vaccine.


> I agree that the medical industry is all about money and profit, it has to be


Wow what a short sighted view point.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> It would show the vaccination is poison not a vaccination in my opinion. But, everyone has one.


Yes, everyone has an opinion and they all stink but our own. Everyone has a butthole too and from time to time, they should be examined by an expert. If said expert says that there is something wrong with yours, you may have more problems than you knew. That’s science!


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## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> There should be a seperate or different category for those with 1 of 2 doses or hasn't been 2 weeks since the final shot. Partially vaxxed?


Sure, to really understand you do have to sort out the number of doses and timing.  This BMJ paper does a pretty good job of that ( https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1943 ) in part:

_Vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic infection observed ≥14 days after one dose was 60% (95% confidence interval 57% to 64%), increasing from 48% (41% to 54%) at 14-20 days after one dose to 71% (63% to 78%) at 35-41 days. Vaccine effectiveness observed ≥7 days after two doses was 91% (89% to 93%). Vaccine effectiveness against hospital admission or death observed ≥14 days after one dose was 70% (60% to 77%), increasing from 62% (44% to 75%) at 14-20 days to 91% (73% to 97%) at ≥35 days, whereas vaccine effectiveness observed ≥7 days after two doses was 98% (88% to 100%)._



Bellbird said:


> Wow what a short sighted view point.


It  has to be, that's the way the world works, no money no doctors and no medicine.  Its not a bad thing!


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## Pauline1954 (Sep 19, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Yes, everyone has an opinion and they all stink but our own. Everyone has a butthole too and from time to time, they should be examined by an expert. If said expert says that there is something wrong with yours, you may have more problems than you knew. That’s science!


You are in fine form today.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> You are in fine form today.


I’m in fine form every day, thank you, that’s because I choose to light a candle rather than to sit and curse the darkness.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It has to be, that's the way the world works, no money no doctors and no medicine. Its not a bad thing!


I don’t think that you quite grasp the point that was being made. Me thinks you were blinded by percent signs. Money doesn’t make the world work, science does. And not everyone takes care of others just for the money. Ever hear of a group called Doctors Without Borders? Or Patch Adams? People helping people because they care and because it’s the right thing to do, what a concept that is!


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## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Money doesn’t make the world work, science does.


Maybe it semantics, but we could not have science without money.  It ain't cheap.  On the other hand without all of our scientific advancements we would not have money.



Chris P Bacon said:


> Ever hear of a group called Doctors Without Borders? Or Patch Adams?


Yes, and they are great people doing great things, however they also need funding.  Somebody had to pay for Patch Adams education and living expenses, travel, and the equipment he uses.  Both Doctors without Borders and Patch Adams solicit donations, they have to.  I know a lot of people also donate time, but those people also need to have money to live from somewhere.  Without money those organizations would not function.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Nature is the original medicine and I don’t think it solicits funding. I’m also pretty sure that money is a man made thing and nothing that occurs in nature. When one changes the way they look at things, the things one looks at change. The best things in life are free, for now anyway.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 19, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Nature is the original medicine


I suppose so, and for a lot of things it still does a pretty good job.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 19, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I suppose so, and for a lot of things it still does a pretty good job.


Hear me now, believe me later but nature and natural things will be here long after man and man made things are not. Is it possible that we never hear of problems on other planets in our solar system because only nature is there and not mankind? Or money? It sounds almost like science but it’s nature, simple and pure.


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## John cycling (Sep 19, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Hear me now, believe me later but nature and natural things will be here long after man and man made things are not. Is it possible that we never hear of problems on other planets in our solar system because only nature is there and not mankind? Or money? It sounds almost like science but it’s nature, simple and pure.



I'm completely in agreement on this.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 20, 2021)

At least 80 fully vaccinated residents in Utah have died of COVID-19 as virus cases continue to climb in the state and rest of the country, according to the latest data.

As per the Utah Department of Health, the breakthrough deaths were reported as of Wednesday along with a total of 13,836 breakthrough infections, 735 of which required admission to hospitals.

https://www.ibtimes.com/80-fully-va...-19-13836-breakthrough-cases-reported-3297697


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 20, 2021)

And in other news a whole host of people lived their lives, as best they could and shook their heads in disbelief as to why some people are so obsessed with other folks dying. They can't see the purpose in the diligence or the relish that some seem to get from the anguish of others. There truly are some attention starved people in this world it appears. And just in case you were wondering, a whole lot of people die every day of lots of things. It's just a shame that none of the useless ones ever seem to bite the dust though. If you have trouble finding doses of gloom and doom on a pretty much daily basis, this is the place you need to be! Someone here will wipe that smile right off of your happy day and smirk, while they tell you that people are dying of Covid. Just look for the blue and click. Have a happy day with those useless statistics. 

I don't have a link but I bet that people even died in Rhode Island and Idaho today too. You could look it up, I bet. Even as people are dying, more are living and being born. I heard that someone in Tennessee pulled a 5 pound booger from their nose. Yeah, the sad thing was that their head collapsed and they died before they even got a chance to eat it. I'll look for the link so I can post it here. Always room for gloom in this room, eh? Cheers, from the Bronx! You can have your spotlight back now.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 20, 2021)

*LAS VEGAS (KLAS) —* Twenty-five people who had received a COVID-19 vaccine died in the past two weeks from the virus, new data from the Southern Nevada Health District (SNHD) showed.

The district now reports more than 9,000 breakthrough coronavirus cases in Clark County since vaccines were made available. Out of those 9,080 cases, 137 people died. For the month of September, about one out of every five new COVID-19 cases involves a person who was vaccinated.

https://www.8newsnow.com/news/healt...-cases-are-among-vaccinated-las-vegas-nevada/

Public Health Confirms Six Deaths as 'Breakthrough' Cases, One More Death, Four Hospitalizations, 77 New COVID-19 Cases​Public Health officials have identified six additional fully vaccinated individuals who have died from the virus. A total of seven residents have died from post-vaccination or “breakthrough” illness out of the county's 84 total deaths attributed to the virus. Thirty-four people have been hospitalized due to post-vaccine illness out of 368 total hospitalizations.
​
https://www.northcoastjournal.com/N...h-four-hospitalizations-77-new-covid-19-cases


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 20, 2021)

Love that smirk!


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 20, 2021)

The Truth About COVID-19 Breakthrough Cases​This takes us to the latest in breakthrough cases. The CDC actively keeps a database with all hospitalizations and deaths from those who’ve been vaccinated for COVID-19. Here’s the most recent information available through August.


Total breakthrough hospitalizations: 12,908
Total breakthrough deaths: 2,437
The vaccine rollout stated December 15th. Through August 30th there were 293,911 COVID-19 deaths in the United States this year. That means fewer than 1% of all COVID-19 deaths this year have been breakthrough cases. That’s with a total of 75% of the adult population having now been vaccinated with at least a first dose of COVID-19 vaccine. While complete national COVID-19 hospitalization data doesn’t exist, for perspective, there are more Floridians hospitalized with COVID-19 today than the entirety of all breakthrough hospitalizations thus far this year nationally – it's likely breakthrough hospitalization rates are 1% or lower of the total as well. This data confirms that while breakthrough cases occur, it’s held true that the vaccines have been extremely effective against the worst effects of COVID-19.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 20, 2021)

*Press release from the County of Humboldt:*

"After extensive case review, Public Health officials have identified six additional fully vaccinated individuals who have died from the virus. A total of seven residents have died from post-vaccination or “breakthrough” illness out of 84 total deaths attributed to the virus. Thirty-four people have been hospitalized due to post-vaccine illness out of 368 total hospitalizations."

Additional Breakthrough Hospitalizations and Deaths Counted Today; Another Person Dies With COVID, Four New Hospitalizations – Redheaded Blackbelt (kymkemp.com)


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## Ladybj (Sep 20, 2021)

Lawrence Nobs said:


> They made up this word "breakthrough", the experimental vaccines simply do not work for thousands, maybe millions of people.


And maybe, just maybe that's why the covid numbers are rising again. But they want to blame it on the unvaccinated. 


win231 said:


> There is nothing easier than manipulating data to sell more vaccines.  It's so common in medical studies, there is a name for it:  _"Data Torturing."_
> It's also commonly used in drug studies to exaggerate benefits & minimize risks.
> From the New England Journal of Medicine:
> _“If you torture your data long enough, they will tell you whatever you want to hear” has become a popular observation in our office. In plain English, this means that study data, if manipulated in enough different ways, can be made to prove whatever the investigator wants to prove."_
> ...


Win, I will definitely look for the book.


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## win231 (Sep 20, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> And maybe, just maybe that's why the covid numbers are rising again. But they want to blame it on the unvaccinated.
> 
> Win, I will definitely look for the book.


Another good one:  "Overdo$ed America"  by John Abramson, MD.


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## suds00 (Sep 21, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> *Press release from the County of Humboldt:*
> 
> "After extensive case review, Public Health officials have identified six additional fully vaccinated individuals who have died from the virus. A total of seven residents have died from post-vaccination or “breakthrough” illness out of 84 total deaths attributed to the virus. Thirty-four people have been hospitalized due to post-vaccine illness out of 368 total hospitalizations."
> 
> Additional Breakthrough Hospitalizations and Deaths Counted Today; Another Person Dies With COVID, Four New Hospitalizations – Redheaded Blackbelt (kymkemp.com)


the people who got sick/died were severely immuno-compromised. the doctor quoted in the article also states that that the vaccine works for people with stronger immune systems and most infected people are younger and unvaccinated. also their caseload mirrors the findings of the cdc. the whole article deserves a quote in the forum.


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## Ladybj (Sep 21, 2021)

suds00 said:


> the people who got sick/died were severely immuno-compromised. the doctor quoted in the article also states that that the vaccine works for people with stronger immune systems and most infected people are younger and unvaccinated. also their caseload mirrors the findings of the cdc. the whole article deserves a quote in the forum.


So shouldn't immuno-compromised patients be told by their doctor..NOT to take the vaccine???  A few have been told but my heart goes out for the ones that were not told and found out too late.  I guess the medical world is learning as we all are, along the way.  Severely ill older patients are given the vaccine??  WHY?  Just trying to understand.


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## win231 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> So shouldn't immuno-compromised patients be told by their doctor..NOT to take the vaccine???  A few have been told but my heart goes out for the ones that were not told and found out too late.  I guess the medical world is learning as we all are, along the way.  Severely ill older patients are given the vaccine??  WHY?  Just trying to understand.


Medicine is a business for profit.  Except in rare cases, they're not about to discourage anyone from getting a vaccine they've invested millions of dollars in.
That's why they're exaggerating infections & statistics.  Fear is required to sell.  And in most cases, it works.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> So shouldn't immuno-compromised patients be told by their doctor..NOT to take the vaccine???  A few have been told but my heart goes out for the ones that were not told and found out too late.  I guess the medical world is learning as we all are, along the way.  Severely ill older patients are given the vaccine??  WHY?  Just trying to understand.


 "I guess the medical world is learning as we all are, along the way. Severely ill older patients are given the vaccine?? WHY?"

The makers of the vaccine and the CDC have stated repeatedly that the deaths of older people with preexisting health conditions were not unexpected.  *Meaning they knew in advance*. So they are not just now learning. 

Why? IMO Its like Russian Roulette, lets give it to them anyway and see what happens.


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## DaveA (Sep 21, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> *LAS VEGAS (KLAS) —* Twenty-five people who had received a COVID-19 vaccine died in the past two weeks from the virus, new data from the Southern Nevada Health District (SNHD) showed.
> 
> The district now reports more than 9,000 breakthrough coronavirus cases in Clark County since vaccines were made available. Out of those 9,080 cases, 137 people died. For the month of September, about one out of every five new COVID-19 cases involves a person who was vaccinated.
> 
> ...


I can almost see you and a few others chortling with glee as you somehow find these folks who die after taking the vaccine.  Is it really that "fulfilling" each day to comb through the news to seek out how many vaccinated folks have died, some in great agony?

Sadly you're not alone in these thoughts.  I'm warned almost daily, on this site, that I've been consuming doctor suggested "poison" for years now.  I'll be 88 (hopefully) in a couple of months so I have to assume that these "poisons" that I've been consuming are rather weak as I haven't succumbed to their ravages.

I've also had most vaccinations since my childhood back in the  30's including the stuff pumped into me during my time in the military.  Amazing that one's (anyone's) body can intake this much poison without shriveling up and blowing away?

But please. let's not speak with glee, regarding the poor souls that have passed, whether they've received vaccine or not.


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## suds00 (Sep 21, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> So shouldn't immuno-compromised patients be told by their doctor..NOT to take the vaccine???  A few have been told but my heart goes out for the ones that were not told and found out too late.  I guess the medical world is learning as we all are, along the way.  Severely ill older patients are given the vaccine??  WHY?  Just trying to understand.


it is a learning curve. doctors should be advisors to patients who have medical problems and a compromised immune system. .the vaccine works well thus far for healthy people 65 and older..i don't know why some people with compromised immune systems are vaccinated.


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## cdestroyer (Sep 21, 2021)

becky1951 wrote"That person you tell may forgo treatment thinking they just need to tough it out at home and not seek medical care." but lady the hospital has more covid infected people than are around me,, so why would I want to go there anyway?


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## Becky1951 (Sep 21, 2021)

My intent for my posting this thread is the numbers are rising for breakthrough cases and deaths. That's why I am posting articles as I come across them and I always provide the link. 

I've had every vaccine available in my 70 years until the Covid vaccines.

Those of you who wish to assume I am gleeful about it, I'm not I'm saddened, but of course you need to belittle those who are not falling in line with your beliefs.  So therefore have at it.  I will continue to post the breakthrough cases and resulting deaths.   

"But please. let's not speak with glee, regarding the poor souls that have passed, whether they've received vaccine or not."

Please point out where I have spoken with glee. You can't because I have never nor ever could, how awful, and yet you imply I have.    

Have a nice day.


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## suds00 (Sep 21, 2021)

it appears that you are picking and choosing only that information that proves a point that you are attempting to make while ignoring other information .this has become a complex issue. i do not think you are doing this with glee, unlike some others. i still feel that breakthrough cases and deaths are milder and/or  much less due to the vaccine ,which we are still learning about.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 21, 2021)

"it appears that you are picking and choosing only that information that proves a point that you are attempting to make while ignoring other information .this has become a complex issue. i do not think you are doing this with glee, unlike some others. i still feel that breakthrough cases and deaths are milder and/or much less due to the vaccine ,which we are still learning about."

_Picking and choosing this topic is important. Just as important as the any other Covid and vaccine topics are.

Yes at this time the cases are less, however they are *rising*. Should that be ignored?  Not in my opinion. 

I'm not ignoring the other information in the links I have posted, but simply posting the information regarding the threads topic, I always include the link for anyone wishing to read the whole article. 

Yes we all want to feel safe and not be reminded there are bad things happening, should we ignore the bad and pretend it isn't happening? Or pretend it doesn't matter because hey those numbers are small?  Once again, not in my opinion.
_


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## fmdog44 (Sep 21, 2021)

Gee, this is new? Cut this from the OP attachment................

“Our local data matches what we know from CDC and CDPH: fully vaccinated people *with severe risk factors and compromised immune systems* are at higher risk for being a post-vaccine case, hospitalization or fatality compared to other fully vaccinated people with stronger immune response to vaccine,” Hoffman said.


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## suds00 (Sep 21, 2021)

i'm not ignoring the facts and figures. .i consider those facts and figures and what what people who have devoted their professional lives to this topic are saying before i make a personal decision re. covid-19. i don't feel that one should choose to display certain facts while ignoring other equally important information.it is early in the pandemic and the numbers may change slightly. the vaccine still remains the best medicine has to offer.


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## win231 (Sep 21, 2021)

DaveA said:


> I can almost see you and a few others chortling with glee as you somehow find these folks who die after taking the vaccine.  Is it really that "fulfilling" each day to comb through the news to seek out how many vaccinated folks have died, some in great agony?
> 
> Sadly you're not alone in these thoughts.  I'm warned almost daily, on this site, that I've been consuming doctor suggested "poison" for years now.  I'll be 88 (hopefully) in a couple of months so I have to assume that these "poisons" that I've been consuming are rather weak as I haven't succumbed to their ravages.
> 
> ...


You are quite confused.   It's the vaccinated who chortle with glee upon hearing about illness among the unvaccinated.
And sharing information--both pro and anti vaccine--is important, whether you like it or not.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 21, 2021)

win231 said:


> You are quite confused.   It's the vaccinated who chortle with glee upon hearing about illness among the unvaccinated.
> And sharing information--both pro and anti vaccine--is important, whether you like it or not.


I don't know anyone "_who chortle with glee upon hearing about illness_" and I would hope no one does.

"_sharing information--both pro and anti vaccine--is important_" Absolutely and I would hope everyone likes it.  So long as the information is accurate and presented in an understandable way it is all good, necessary really.  Some more useful than other, but all good.


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