# Moral licensing!  Are you a victim of it?



## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Perhaps you haven't even heard of it but are still a victim of it.  Simply put it means that if you been good at something you can be bad at something else, such as if you exercise regularly you can indulge yourself in something else, an extra slice or two of pizza, for example...


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## Underock1 (Jun 23, 2015)

I've been good for eighty two years, Ralphy. ( Bursting into song ); "Until my numbers up, I'm gonna' fill my cup. I'm gonna' live, live, live, until I die!" :banana:


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## QuickSilver (Jun 23, 2015)

Not sure what you are talking about Ralphy


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## Warrigal (Jun 23, 2015)

After years of beating myself up for my moral failings - not caring enough, not generous enough etc - I have finally learned to forgive myself for my shortcomings as much as I forgive others for theirs. I am much happier as a result. 

If I want a high calorie snack I have it with a clear conscience and don't worry about trading it off with exercise or starving myself later. I'm not into moral licensing and I probably never have been all that much.

I think I'm part Hobbitt.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Developmental studies show that we come to accepting ourselves and our shortcomings from around fifty onwards.  As a devout and determined hedonist in my seventies I never consider any of the trade offs but know people who still do...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 23, 2015)

ok...  I'll play..  Yes..  If I am going to indulge in something that I know may not be the best for me.. I try to offset it with something else.  Most times..  I really don't see what is wrong with that..  It's called hoping to live a little longer, and to be healthy while I'm at it.   

Other kinds of moral licensing seem silly to me.   If I do something I am not particularly proud of in one area, I don't try to make it up in another... Like if I yell at a storeclerk, I don't tip my waitress double later on at dinner.   That's silly..  Who is keeping score anyway?


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Now you have the idea, but an extra large tip for good service would make the recipient feel good and maybe you, too...


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## Underock1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> After years of beating myself up for my moral failings - not caring enough, not generous enough etc - I have finally learned to forgive myself for my shortcomings as much as I forgive others for theirs. I am much happier as a result.
> 
> If I want a high calorie snack I have it with a clear conscience and don't worry about trading it off with exercise or starving myself later. I'm not into moral licensing and I probably never have been all that much.
> 
> I think I'm part Hobbitt.



Go for it, DW!  :chocolate:


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## QuickSilver (Jun 23, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Now you have the idea, but an extra large tip for good service would make the recipient feel good and maybe you, too...



Yes, but it would not make up for my yelling at a salesclerk earlier in the day.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes, but if you keep generously tipping you are building up your moral license to yell at a clerk again...


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## Underock1 (Jun 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> ok...  I'll play..  Yes..  If I am going to indulge in something that I know may not be the best for me.. I try to offset it with something else.  Most times..  I really don't see what is wrong with that..  It's called hoping to live a little longer, and to be healthy while I'm at it.
> 
> Other kinds of moral licensing seem silly to me.   If I do something I am not particularly proud of in one area, I don't try to make it up in another... Like if I yell at a storeclerk, I don't tip my waitress double later on at dinner.   That's silly..  Who is keeping score anyway?



                                           :dunno: God?


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## QuickSilver (Jun 23, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Yes, but if you keep generously tipping you are building up your moral license to yell at a clerk again...




That's nonsense Ralphy....


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## QuickSilver (Jun 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> :dunno: God?




Which one?


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Yep, but moral licensing, as psychologists have dubbed it, is real for some...


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## Underock1 (Jun 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Which one?



:shrug: Beats me.


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## jujube (Jun 23, 2015)

Life is short....have dessert first.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes!!!


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## AZ Jim (Jun 23, 2015)

About 79 years I have lived pretty much as I please.  It's too late to "clean up my act" now.  Oh I did give up smoking but not until it had done it's job.  Smoke free for 28 years now.  But I eat what I want, drink what I want and try not to look at the calendar.


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## oakapple (Jun 23, 2015)

I have been guilty of this moral licensing thing Ralphy, now and then, but the older I get the less I do it! thankfully I am slim anyway and don't eat a great amount, so If I fancy a slice of cake, then I  eat it, without worrying about offsetting it with a swim or brisk walk or anything.Ditto a small ( or large ) Scotch.:beerandwhistle:


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

As we age we tend to reduce the pressure on ourselves...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2015)

I gave up smoking some years ago. So far so good. As for the rest, my mother broke all the rules, lived to be ninety three, my aunt a year older. I want quality, not quantity. Happiness for me is not found on a spinach leaf with  two carrot sticks. I drink sparingly, don't overeat, and from time to time, celebrate 4:20. Lol. I also highly recommend huge doses of laughter and hugs, with a dollop of sex here and there.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

A 4:20?  Have I missed something?


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy, 4:20 references a Bob Marley song about ganja aka pot. Lol.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

Well, maybe I have missed something as pot wasn't a universal choice for my generation.  Might have to try before I die...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy, I have an English friend in his seventies who lives on a farm nearby. He swears by pot as an effective remedy for the pain in his severely arthritic elbow, as well as acid reflux.


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Happiness for me is not found on a spinach leaf with  two carrot sticks.



Thanks Shali!  :applause2: You made me laugh.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2015)

I don't believe this thread is REALLY about food..  but about moral actions.. Ralphy can correct me if I am wrong.   He was only using food as an example. I believe the intent was to think about, if you are less than proud of your actions or choices in one moral area... do you over compensate in another area.  As in the example I used.. if you yell at a store clerk during the day... do you double tip your waitress that evening to make up for your poor behavior earlier?   OR another, do large contributions to charity make you feel justified in cheating  a little bit on your taxes?   Stuff like that.


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2015)

It's easier to talk about food than about our moral choices, hence the distractions.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

Yes, yes!  Another example is if a man cheats on his wife during the week and then goes to two church services on Sunday...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Yes, yes!  Another example is if a man cheats on his wife during the week and then goes to two church services on Sunday...



Or like my first husband did...  buy me anything I wanted.   I could never figure out why he would become so generous on occasion....  then I finally did...   hahahahahahahaha


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> A 4:20?  Have I missed something?




Yes apparently you have.   Having a 4:20 means smoking a joint...  That started when the usually time for college kids to light up was in the afternoon after their final class for the day..  and that seemed to be pretty standard at about 4:20 in the afternoon..  Hence...  the term got started.  

But apparently there are other stories about how it got started.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/420-weed-day-marijuana-april-holiday_n_1437964.html


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

George Burns cheated and bought Gracie a beautiful sterling silver tea service.  She was so pleased that she told a friend that she wished that he would cheat some more...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Morals are rules determined by society. If we don't consider ourselves _part_ of that society we have no need for guilt or petty compensations. 

Karma operates on its own, without our help. We just need to man-up and take our consequences.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

But most of us are products of Western tradition...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> But most of us are products of Western tradition...



We've _allowed_ ourselves to become that, yes ...


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

Allowed to or just conformed to it because it felt comfortable, and also it allowed us get along with our peers at all stages of life...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2015)

IMO there is a definate value and health (both mental and physical) from being part of a society.. and feeling part of a society..  even if it means conformance.  To NOT want to is sociopathic...  no?


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 24, 2015)

No!  A rebel might be more apporiate...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> No!  A rebel might be more apporiate...



It greatly depends on the degree of anti-social behavior.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Allowed to or just conformed to it because it felt comfortable, and also it allowed us get along with our peers at all stages of life...



That's the "allowed to" part. It's quite seductive. 



QuickSilver said:


> IMO there is a definate value and health (both mental and physical) from being part of a society.. and feeling part of a society..  even if it means conformance.  To NOT want to is sociopathic...  no?



Yes, there is security and peer acceptance when you are part of a larger group. There is also loss of the individual and inability to live as YOU fully want to. 

Sociopathic is just another one of those terms devised by society to label the "bad guys" ...


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

If we are talking strictly about mistreating another human being, instead of are we "victims" of "moral licensing", how about asking "Do you ever suffer from a guilty conscience"?  If you never do, you may be a sociopath.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> If we are talking strictly about mistreating another human being, instead of are we "victims" of "moral licensing", how about asking "Do you ever suffer from a guilty conscience"?  If you never do, you may be a sociopath.



But we are _not_ strictly speaking of mistreating fellow humans, as has already been clarified in this thread.

Even though some fellow humans _deserve_ mistreatment, as has _also_ been stated by several respondents in several threads here. 

And ... if one never suffers from a guilty conscience, perhaps one simply has never been guilty ...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2015)

A person would have to be inhuman indeed to have embraced a level of perfection where no moral imperative was needed. Imagine  how annoying such an individual would be without any noticeable flaws. Ugh. Underock, glad I made you laugh.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> A person would have to be inhuman indeed to have embraced a level of perfection where no moral imperative was needed. *Imagine  how annoying such an individual would be without any noticeable flaws.* Ugh. Underock, glad I made you laugh.



We DO tend to annoy others, true ...


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## Shalimar (Jun 24, 2015)

Phil,  a legend in your own mind, have a cookie! Lol. Don't trip over your wings now! Lol


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> But we are _not_ strictly speaking of mistreating fellow humans, as has already been clarified in this thread.
> 
> Even though some fellow humans _deserve_ mistreatment, as has _also_ been stated by several respondents in several threads here.
> 
> And ... if one never suffers from a guilty conscience, perhaps one simply has never been guilty ...



Well now I feel like a victim of _something, _but I'm not sure what it is.
Sometimes its good to be dumb. :turnaround:


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> But we are _not_ strictly speaking of mistreating fellow humans, as has already been clarified in this thread.
> 
> Even though some fellow humans _deserve_ mistreatment, as has _also_ been stated by several respondents in several threads here.
> 
> And ... if one never suffers from a guilty conscience, perhaps one simply has never been guilty ...



Well now I feel like a victim of _something, _but I'm not sure what it is.
Sometimes its good to be dumb. :turnaround:


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Well now I feel like a victim of _something, _but I'm not sure what it is.
> Sometimes its good to be dumb. :turnaround:



A victim perhaps of excessive social conditioning, starting in childhood - that's what they did to ME, anyway.

... or _tried_ to ... I beat them down with my wings. :angel:


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## Davey Jones (Jun 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Not sure what you are talking about Ralphy



You're not the first one.


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> A victim perhaps of excessive social conditioning, starting in childhood - that's what they did to ME, anyway.
> 
> ... or _tried_ to ... I beat them down with my wings. :angel:



Sorry for your unhappy upbringing. Mine was happy, but out of the norm. I didn't get enough social conditioning. :wiggle:


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## oakapple (Jun 24, 2015)

What IS the norm Underock?


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

oakapple said:


> What IS the norm Underock?



Well we all get to define that, don't we. Its way too complex to explain my upbringing here, and in the end would not be understood anyway. Lets just say that I have never met anyone who had a similar one. My parents always treated their kids with love. We were poor but never hungry. I am not going into the rest of it.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Well we all get to define that, don't we. Its way too complex to explain my upbringing here, and in the end would not be understood anyway. Lets just say that I have never met anyone who had a similar one. My parents always treated their kids with love. We were poor but never hungry. I am not going into the rest of it.



Did you attend church? Did you attend school? Did you listen to the radio or watch TV? Did you have friends? Did you obey all the laws?

If YES to any of those things you've been exposed to social conditioning.


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Did you attend church? Did you attend school? Did you listen to the radio or watch TV? Did you have friends? Did you obey all the laws?
> 
> If YES to any of those things you've been exposed to social conditioning.



No kidding.


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2015)

All culture is social conditioning. 
That's how society is forged but individualism survives conditioning for the most part.


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## Underock1 (Jun 24, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> All culture is social conditioning.
> That's how society is forged but individualism survives conditioning for the most part.



Thank you DW. I thought that was pretty self evident.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 24, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> All culture is social conditioning.
> That's how society is forged but individualism survives conditioning for the most part.



Does it? Does it really?

Aren't you following the rules on this forum? Aren't you suppressing your individuality to some extent here? 

And I disagree that ALL culture is social conditioning. Some of it is pure survival instinct (or lack thereof), hence why some societies are no longer here - their citizens followed their conditioning to their deaths. Others followed their instincts successfully and survived. 

But that wasn't social conditioning. 

And, individualism survives conditioning? Really? I know _very_ few people that I could truly call individuals, who are 100% free of the chains of society. More often I see the huddled masses moving along in their proper lanes, dressing the same, eating the same and thinking the same. 

And morality? "Thous shalt not" do this and that? C'mon - tell me those kinds of rules allow for an individual to flourish.


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2015)

My thoughts in blue.


SifuPhil said:


> Does it? Does it really?
> 
> Aren't you following the rules on this forum? Aren't you suppressing your individuality to some extent here?
> Of course, because I am in control of myself. I have my own reasons for tempering my posts that are actually expressions of my individuality. My reasons are not your reasons.
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

Besides society there is Mommy Nature working on us, and at times we can't control the urges that she provides...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> My thoughts in blue.



My thoughts on your blue thoughts in green ...




> Of course, because I am in control of myself. I  have my own reasons for tempering my posts that are actually expressions  of my individuality. My reasons are not your reasons.
> 
> Methinks you might just be hiding the fact that you cannot fully express your true feelings here, because of The Rules. One cannot fully, freely express themselves when restricted - just ask a few of the more controversial artists. I'm sure Duchamp, Picasso, Christo and a few others would agree ...
> 
> ...


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## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2015)

This is fun, isn't it? 
My thoughts on your green thoughts in red.  


> Of course, because I am in control of myself. I  have my own reasons for tempering my posts that are actually expressions  of my individuality. My reasons are not your reasons.
> 
> Methinks you might just be hiding the fact that you cannot fully express your true feelings here, because of The Rules. One cannot fully, freely express themselves when restricted - just ask a few of the more controversial artists. I'm sure Duchamp, Picasso, Christo and a few others would agree ...
> 
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

OK, can we get back to something more meaningful here?


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## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2015)

We're talking about morality, ethics and social conditioning. How much more meaningful can you handle?


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

Small potatoes, get back to the topic, and we want more examples of your personal shortcomings...


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## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2015)

:grin: My moral failing is that I keep secrets.
I also tease people by not telling them the secrets that I know.


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

Not very ethical on your part...


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## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2015)

It's ethical if I'm keeping a secret for someone else.
It's not unethical to tease you because you love it.
Teasing is my gift to you. :flowers:


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

Rationalizing is another one of shortcomings.  This could become a lengthy list...


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## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2015)

It could indeed. I am but a fallen angel. :devil:


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 25, 2015)

The curtain has been pulled back and what most suspected has now been revealed.  You should apologize to one and all for your sins that are too numerous to mention and beg for our forgiveness...


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## Underock1 (Jun 25, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Small potatoes, get back to the topic, and we want more examples of your personal shortcomings...



Does anyone know what the topic is anymore? The original post only mentioned exercise and food, and seemed to be about trading off self denial against indulgences. I made a short response to that and was rewarded with an argumentative post about social conditioning and morality that had nothing to do with anything I had said. 
DW did not start the long debate. I was happy to have her take over an unwanted debate that to my mind was basically a long complaint about the obvious. Many thanks, DW.

So, getting back on topic; pizza, anyone?


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## Glinda (Jun 25, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Does anyone know what the topic is anymore?
> 
> So, getting back on topic; pizza, anyone?



Damned if I know.  But I'll have some pizza.  Hold the pepperoni, please!


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## QuickSilver (Jun 25, 2015)

I'll have some pizza now....  I can always have a salad for dinner..


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## SifuPhil (Jun 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> This is fun, isn't it?
> My thoughts on your green thoughts in red.



I love it. 

My replies to your red thoughts are in Indigo.



> Of course, because I am in control of myself. I   have my own reasons for tempering my posts that are actually expressions   of my individuality. My reasons are not your reasons.
> 
> Methinks you might just be hiding the fact  that you cannot fully express your true feelings here, because of The  Rules. One cannot fully, freely express themselves when restricted -  just ask a few of the more controversial artists. I'm sure Duchamp,  Picasso, Christo and a few others would agree ...
> 
> ...


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