# Anyone have any problems with this news story?



## Katybug (Oct 10, 2013)

BAGHDAD (AP) — Iraq has hanged 42 prisoners convicted of terrorism-related charges, including a woman, the Justice Ministry said Thursday, in Baghdad's latest use of capital punishment despite international appeals to have it abolished.


_42 down, 42 million to go!_


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## rkunsaw (Oct 10, 2013)

No problems from here.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 10, 2013)

I wonder why they say including a woman in the report...her life was more valuable?  Like Rkunsaw, no problems here.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 10, 2013)

None here either, except that I wasn't invited as an observer and cheerleader.


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## That Guy (Oct 10, 2013)

We need to stay out and let them have at each other.


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## Old Hipster (Oct 10, 2013)

That Guy said:


> We need to stay out and let them have at each other.


Yeah what he said.


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## Diwundrin (Oct 10, 2013)

That Guy said:


> We need to stay out and let them have at each other.



Yep, I've been trying to tell the UN that for years.


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## Katybug (Oct 10, 2013)

I always want revenge in the worst form imaginable for those who oppose our country so harshly and seemingly have no regard for human life.  I know Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, but I felt cheated in the camera cutting away of his hanging, something I wanted to see in full detail. I am only squeamish about things that crawl, not the most evil of monsters.  

I was far more pleased with the details of seeing Munnamer Gudaffi's demise.  It took way too long to make that happen. It's not for everyone, but when you have so much blood on your hands, it's pure justice and we don't get to see that nearly often enough.  As for Osama, there can never be enough gross & intricate details for me with him being taken out. (Bless those heroic Seals!!)  The only consolation is how harsh to always be in hiding w/a relatively poor quality of life compared to what he could have known.  It's not nearly enough, but has to be good enough with him dead!


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## MercyL (Oct 11, 2013)

Katybug said:


> I always want revenge in the worst form imaginable for those who oppose our country so harshly and seemingly have no regard for human life.  I know Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, but I felt cheated in the camera cutting away of his hanging, something I wanted to see in full detail. I am only squeamish about things that crawl, not the most evil of monsters.
> 
> I was far more pleased with the details of seeing Munnamer Gudaffi's demise.  It took way too long to make that happen. It's not for everyone, but when you have so much blood on your hands, it's pure justice and we don't get to see that nearly often enough.  As for Osama, there can never be enough gross & intricate details for me with him being taken out. (Bless those heroic Seals!!)  The only consolation is how harsh to always be in hiding w/a relatively poor quality of life compared to what he could have known.  It's not nearly enough, but has to be good enough with him dead!



I looked at your original post a few days ago and came back to see if I missed something. Which part of the news story did you have a problem with?

I agree with you about wanting to see a punishment or execution carried out and I also felt cheated when the camera did not show Saddam's head popping off, at least I heard that it popped off. We should have the pleasure of pointing and laughing at heartless people.


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## dbeyat45 (Oct 11, 2013)

Katybug said:


> BAGHDAD (AP) — Iraq has hanged 42 prisoners convicted of terrorism-related charges, including a woman, the Justice Ministry said Thursday, in Baghdad's latest use of capital punishment despite international appeals to have it abolished.
> 
> _42 down, 42 million to go!_


It's not as bad as it sounds:  There are only 32 million Iraqis.


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## Katybug (Oct 12, 2013)

MercyL said:


> I looked at your original post a few days ago and came back to see if I missed something.
> 
> I agree with you about wanting to see a punishment or execution carried out and I also felt cheated when the camera did not show Saddam's head popping off, at least I heard that it popped off. We should have the pleasure of pointing and laughing at heartless people.


*
Mercy: * *Which part of the news story did you have a problem with?*

*Mercy, I didn't have a problem with any part of the story whatsoever....I was happy as could be to read it.  I probably didn't make myself clear, but my last sentence..."42 down and 42 million to go." is the way I feel....in that hanging 42 terrorists  is good, but hanging 42 million would make me even happier!  

And I didn't know Saddam's head popped off, glad to hear it.  Just saw Anthony Bourdain's show on the Kurds in Iraq & Turkey.  It's nothing short of amazing at how far they've come in rebuilding their country, their pride, and their way of life after so many of them being slaughtered by Saddam. The show warmed my heart, as they almost idolize Americans and are so grateful for us being there.  They are a very resourceful & proud people these days, but  God only knows what will happen when we leave.*


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 12, 2013)

MercyL said:


> We should have the pleasure of pointing and laughing at heartless people.



You don't see the irony of that statement?


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 12, 2013)

Katybug said:


> *Hanging 42 terrorists  is good, but hanging 42 million would make me even happier!
> 
> *



See you in church on Sunday?


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 12, 2013)

The Universe is governed by Law. We reap what we sow. Suffering can only be requited by suffering. 

The cruel and the evil will get their comeuppance, but let us not delight in that or we run the risk of becoming tainted with the same malice of spirit that afflicted them...


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## Katybug (Oct 12, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> See you in church on Sunday?



*As a matter of fact, I will be in church tomorrow morning.  

And I have no shame whatsoever in my feelings toward the demise of terrorists, nor does anyone else I know, none whatsoever!  I don't know you, so apparently there are exceptions.*


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## MercyL (Oct 12, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> You don't see the irony of that statement?



Not really, but then I am not Christian and understand why Kings placed the heads of their enemies on pikes. Surely someone who had been victimized took great pleasure in seeing their attacker's head hung on a wall or placed on a pike in some tiny village we've never heard of.

He* earned* the execution, according to his citizenry. I see nothing wrong in appreciating it the way I appreciate it. If he had been an innocent man caught up in a political disaster and chosen as the scapegoat my pointing and laughing would be just as heartless as Saddam's treatment of his people, but that's not the case.

He earned it.


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2013)

I have been silent in this thread so far but I have to support Knightofalbion when he says that



> The cruel and the evil will get their comeuppance, but let us not delight in that or we run the risk of becoming tainted with the same malice of spirit that afflicted them...



IMO we are on shaky moral ground when we rejoice over the death others, even those we consider our enemies.
We become part of the cheering mob at the guillotine or the gibbet.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 12, 2013)

Having high morals and broadcasting them to the world is nice, but let that terrorist act be perpetrated against your OWN family and see how quickly the tune changes. I find it alarming that so many devout Christians express horror at retribution, yet their religion's history is filled to overflowing with gory examples of just such actions. 

Warri, there seems to be a heck of a lot of people that rejoice over Hitler's death every day, yet no one censures them - in fact, to express anything 
other than complete agreement with them invites a public lynching, especially in the many countries such as Germany where the mere mention of Hitler's political party is a felony crime. How do you explain that phenomenon in terms of having "firm moral ground"?


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## Warrigal (Oct 12, 2013)

Phil, please don't accuse me of preaching on this issue. I had kept quiet until now.
I am no different to anyone else in that I also feel a sense of satisfaction when some monster is brought down.
I also feel a certain horror when I see people lined up outside a prison waiting to cheer when some criminal is executed.
Underneath our civilised exterior lies a savage core which we need to keep in check.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 12, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> Phil, please don't accuse me of preaching on this issue. I had kept quiet until now.



I wasn't aware that I ever accused you of preaching - I'm sorry you perceived it that way. I'm just responding to the thread in general. 

My second paragraph _only_ was addressed to you, and I'm only asking how you would explain the disparity I presented.


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## Katybug (Oct 12, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Having high morals and broadcasting them to the world is nice, but let that terrorist act be perpetrated against your OWN family and see how quickly the tune changes. I find it alarming that so many devout Christians express horror at retribution, yet their religion's history is filled to overflowing with gory examples of just such actions.
> 
> Warri, there seems to be a heck of a lot of people that rejoice over Hitler's death every day, yet no one censures them - in fact, to express anything other than complete agreement with them invites a public lynching, especially in the many countries such as Germany where the mere mention of Hitler's political party is a felony crime. How do you explain that phenomenon in terms of having "firm moral ground"?



*I see it exactly as you do, Phil, but just realizing this thread should probably be in the new & more serious forum.

As I watched the poignant story of the Kurds this week, I kept thinking how Saddam and Hitler were exactly the same.  There is no difference, in that both were attempting to exterminate an entire sect of people.  It sickens me knowing the thousands of innocent lives lost, and the manner in which they were lost, all in the name of power hungry/demented monsters.  I have no shame in my pleasure of knowing their days are over and their demise can't have ended brutally enough to suit me. 

Capital punishment falls under politics and religion, which are adamant no-no's for discussion.  But here we are and I've maintained for years to those opposed to capital punishment -- one question -- if it were your daughter raped and/or sodomized & murdered, how would you feel in delving out punishment? As for me, the sentence couldn't be harsh enough and I cringe for those who were given a pass to carry on as if no crime had been committed. The 2 who come to mind are OJ and Casey Anthony.  I think those 2 are largely responsible for our voicing our opinions so loudly when justice is finally served.      

As many of you, I remember the serial killings of beautiful and innocent young women at the hands of Ted Bundy.  Ted was extremely well educated, but evil as he was brilliant.  I can remember the smile on my face when I heard he was executed.   If that's wrong, so be it, but I can only imagine if one of those innocent young girls were mine.   

And that's what makes the world go round, friends, we all have different opinions and luckily are able to speak them without fear of punishment.  What a boring place it would be if we all felt the same.   *


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 12, 2013)

This thread should be just where it is.   I replied that I didn't have a problem with the news report, but I've seen the videos of OUR men being beheaded in the past, and OUR men having their heart cut out and eaten by these savages...I don't find any pleasure in seeing killings like these in either case.  I will not be in the cheering mobs or rejoicing over incidents like these.  Like That Guy said, we should just stay out of it, and let them have at each other.

I was satisfied to hear that that Castro guy who kept those girls imprisoned in his home for a decade and tortured them, hung himself in jail.  Bad part is now I'm hearing that it may have been auto-erotic asphyxiation.  In other words, that joker went out with a smile on his face, now that ticks me off!


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## Katybug (Oct 12, 2013)

Seabreeze: I was satisfied to hear that that Castro guy who kept those girls imprisoned in his home for a decade and tortured them, hung himself in jail.  Bad part is now I'm hearing that it may have been auto-erotic asphyxiation.  In other words, that joker went out with a smile on his face, now that ticks me off![/QUOTE]

*I can't believe you posted what I was thinking when I read it yesterday, Seabreeze.    With any  thought to it whatsoever, how many people before hanging themselves let their pants & underwear fall to their ankles for any reason other than the obvious? 

Whatever the smile on his face may have been going out, hope you enjoyed it, Bubba!  What a huge favor he did for his poor victims in not having to relive it....as well as the expense of the long and drawn out trial for taxpayers to bear.  I know all of us wish the best of emotional recoveries for his poor victims.  They endured a nightmare beyond belief.  Write a book, ladies.  It will perhaps ease a small part of  your pain in getting it out, knowing all of us are in your cheering section.  
*


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 12, 2013)

I wouldn't have known about those things before David Carradine dying that way.  I wish the best also for those girls, they seem strong and able to move forward.


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## Katybug (Oct 12, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> I wouldn't have known about those things before David Carradine dying that way.  I wish the best also for those girls, they seem strong and able to move forward.



I've been divorced for many years and considered myself up with the times....I guess only somewhat.  I'd never heard of this this "experience" 'til the Carradine thing either, Seabreeze.  It's obviously a "guy" thing.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 12, 2013)

Katybug said:


> ...  It's obviously a "guy" thing.



... probably because the more testosterone you have the more likely you are to engage in risky behavior, and because women's methods of masturbation are quite different than men's. 

Carradine was a big let-down for me - I idolized him when he was in _Kung Fu_.


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## Happyflowerlady (Oct 12, 2013)

I believe that criminals should be punished, and even executed for their crimes.  If it were someone in my family that was murdered,  I would certainly be glad to see the killer punished. 
However, to see them suffer first, or even see them dying, is not anything I would want to see.  
What is the difference in me wanting to see a murderer suffer, and the murderer wanting to see someone suffer ?  It makes me no different than him, if I also enjoy seeing another human suffering, regardless of the cause. 
Justice...yes. Cruelty....no.


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## Diwundrin (Oct 12, 2013)

> Justice...yes. Cruelty....no.



:iagree:

I'm taking great delight in reading all this.  The irony is 5 star. 

 Here I sit, a cynical, jaded, atheist with a propensity to wreak vengeance as only a left handed Scorpio or a Sicilian Don can envisage and yet I find  the comments from otherwise gentle and 'humanitarian' people quite surprising to say the least.  

Pop poor old Saddam's head off?  Really?  A bullet in the temple wouldn't have sufficed?
I don't hold with all the pomp, ritual and ceremony that accompanies death sentences.  Just shoot 'em in the cell and clean up if necessary.

I like my vengeance quick and clean.  To me it is removing a threat, not an entertainment to be indulged in.  The more delight we take in an enemy's demise the more 'power'  we give them in having influenced our lives.  

To me the ultimate contempt for an enemy would be to just off him on the spot.  No further correspondence entered into.
 No last words. No outpourings of grief or explanations of why he's being ended. No smug self-righteousness grinning.  Not even a 'Bye Saddam', just a clean shot to rid the world of him, or whoever. Stepped on a cockroach.  End of section.

The Bin Laden op was the best piece of diplomacy the US has pulled off yet.  Kudos for how that was handled.

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd lean more towards Warri's take on anything but I do on this.  I don't mind in the least who gets taken out or even how really, but beyond thinking, "good, serves the bugger right" I don't gloat over the physical details of the manner of his or her demise.  

 I don't mind someone's reputation bleeding to death, or being skewered on a public spike when deserved, but to actually physically indulge in it as 'enjoyable' justice  is another matter entirely.

I might appreciate an appropriately ironic ending, as when bombers blow  themselves up in the workshop, but I don't feel the need to hug myself  in delight over it.  I really don't get that Madame Defarge syndrome at  all I'm afraid.  It seems a little childish to me, but hey, I'm usually  the odd one out so who cares?
------------

Just out of curiosity, why such *personal* feelings about Saddam?  What was it that he did exactly to elicit that degree of hatred?  He didn't organize 9/11.  He didn't even have the weapons he was idiot enough to brag about. So what did he do to you all, so *personally*?   Dubbya drummed up a lot of sentiment to excuse/explain bombing Bagdhad but really?

I know he wasn't someone I'd ever want to meet, and I'm not defending him.  He was a vicious despot who ruled by force and terrorised his own Country, but it was a damned site easier country to live in under him than it is now.  Moslems in those regions have always been a hard people to control and only the hardest and fiercest can control them at all.  That's how they operate.  Democracy is a personality defect over there, he was no worse than the rest of them.

Mugabe did as much but he's still poncing around the UN as if nothing happened.  Idi Amin didn't get his head 'popped off' either from memory.  No one  took them *personal*?

Sure Saddam took out a few Kurds... and now I'm speaking *personally*, as of all the run-ins I had working with, and supervising Moslem men the only one who ever really seriously scared me with his 'reasoning' of the value of women in general and me in particular and the threats that went with it, was a Kurd!

 So, on my *personal* level Saddam couldn't have picked a better mob to gas. To me at the time he seemed to be doing the world a favour.   Is that a fair stance?  Nope.  But that was the rather trivial reason behind my *personal* reaction to the news of what Saddam was up to.  So what triggers yours?


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 13, 2013)

Katybug said:


> _42 down, 42 million to go!
> _




This implies you'd like to see ALL Iraqis hanged - women, children, babies, old people the crippled, the blind ...and laugh about it.


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 13, 2013)

Katybug said:


> I always want revenge in the worst form imaginable for those who oppose our country so harshly and seemingly have no regard for human life.  I know Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, but I felt cheated in the camera cutting away of his hanging, something I wanted to see in full detail.



Spoken like a true Christian! 

'Oppose our country'? You invaded them! 'Nothing to do with 9/11'. That's right the Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11. They didn't have any WMDs either, but you still invaded them.

It was George W. Bush's private war - and I bet you voted for him! 
Lots of innocent people got killed, but Big Business did okay out of it.


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 13, 2013)

Katybug said:


> *
> 
> And I didn't know Saddam's head popped off, glad to hear it.
> *



Sorry to disappoint you, but it didn't.


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 13, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> I have been silent in this thread so far but I have to support Knightofalbion when he says that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Respect to you, dear Warrigal. A welcome display of humanity, dignity and common decency.


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## Warrigal (Oct 13, 2013)

And so say those whose people were rounded up and taken to Abu Ghraib for questioning or who died during the shock and awe phase of the Iraq campaign. These are just a couple of reasons why westerners are not universally popular in the Middle East.


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2013)

I just heard these words spoken and I think that they encapsulate something important.



> There will always be those who mean to do us harm.
> To stop them we risk awakening the same evil in ourselves.
> Our first instinct is to seek revenge when those we love are taken from us ...
> ... but that is not who we are.
> ​Closing speech by James T Kirk from the movie _Into Darkness_


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 14, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> I just heard these words spoken and I think that they encapsulate something important.



Wonderful! The perfect response!


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## Diwundrin (Oct 14, 2013)

But it actually is how most of us are Warri.  I'm a firm believer in revenge, if only to discourage someone else from trying to get away with the same thing.  It's the manner in which the revenge is taken that matters.  
To further pester the point, what we were discussing was 3rd party spectator participation.  The Captain missed the point a bit.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 14, 2013)

Revenge can be a good thing, not the evil some like to make it to be. If not for revenge there would be no punishment for evil doers. No punishment means there is no deterrent to others who would do evil.

We can't just sit back and do nothing, hoping evil doesn't happen to us. 

Some have said taking revenge makes us as bad as the ones who committed the evil deed. That is ridiculous. Taking revenge against evil makes the world a better and safer place.


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## Katybug (Oct 14, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> Revenge can be a good thing, not the evil some like to make it to be. If not for revenge there would be no punishment for evil doers. No punishment means there is no deterrent to others who would do evil.
> 
> We can't just sit back and do nothing, hoping evil doesn't happen to us.
> 
> Some have said taking revenge makes us as bad as the ones who committed the evil deed. That is ridiculous. Taking revenge against evil makes the world a better and safer place.



*I see it exactly as you do, RK, and this is my last post on this issue.  Thank goodness we live in countries where we can express our entitled opinions openly.  We can be assured that the way we feel is going to conflict with the way others may feel, and that's what makes the world go round.   

Wishing everyone a wonderful day/evening....
*


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> Revenge can be a good thing, not the evil some like to make it to be. If not for revenge there would be no punishment for evil doers. No punishment means there is no deterrent to others who would do evil.
> 
> We can't just sit back and do nothing, hoping evil doesn't happen to us.
> 
> Some have said taking revenge makes us as bad as the ones who committed the evil deed. That is ridiculous. Taking revenge against evil makes the world a better and safer place.



If you substitute the word justice for revenge then I have no disagreement. The OP was about a lawful execution according to the laws of the country in which the crimes were committed. I have no problem with that. 

Revenge is what happens in countries like Papua New Guinea. The practice is called 'payback' and it certainly doesn't make that country a better and safer place. Someone steals a neighbour's pig so the aggrieved owner burns down the house of the person he thinks is responsible. A car accident results in someone being injured so the occupants of the car are dragged out and beaten to death.  Along the road you see many rows of burnt out houses that are the result of the payback system of revenge/justice. PNG is a very dangerous place to visit and parts of it are also very lawless.


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## SifuPhil (Oct 14, 2013)

Justice is just revenge dressed up in nice clothing.


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2013)

Justice is not justice when it is devoid of judgement, discernment, compassion and mercy. 
Are these the nice clothes that turn revenge into justice?


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## SifuPhil (Oct 14, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> Justice is not justice when it is devoid of judgement, discernment, compassion and mercy.
> Are these the nice clothes that turn revenge into justice?



Your concept of justice is derived from a theoretical ideal, which unfortunately does not exist in the real world.

Remember the discussions on this forum about capital punishment? How it's wrong because the person might be innocent? It's that same degree of uncertainty that applies to EVERY court case. You have your crooked, paid-off judges; you have your juries of "12 men honest and true" that pick their noses in the jury box while watching movies on their iPhones; you have the social rights groups crying about the unfairness of the whole thing, and you have the media presenting their own views.

Compassion and mercy, huh? How much of those could you muster for a mass murderer? For someone who kills their kids? 

For someone who kills _yours_? 

Justice is a crap-shoot, a roll of the dice. Revenge is a 100% certainty.


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 14, 2013)

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - Mahatma Gandhi


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 14, 2013)

And anyway, nobody 'gets away with it'... Nobody.

The harder they come, the harder they fall. Karma gets them all.

'You' can work cruelty and evil if 'you' want, for we all have free will. But for everything there is a price to be paid and a soul cannot progress until it has put right what it did wrong.


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## Diwundrin (Oct 14, 2013)

You like quotes Warri, what do you think is the basic meaning of this one?  "Justice must not only be done, but seen to be done."

I think it takes into account the basic need in humans for reward and revenge.  It's part of what makes us tick as a species.

I venture that too much mercy has crept into the justice/socially accepted revenge system.  Revenge in the form of justice isn't being seen to be done to appropriate extent to satisfy society that the law has their interests in mind.  If the legal system doesn't perform what the public pay them to do then they take it upon themselves to do the job.

My only worry is that Defarge gloating thing.  
Justice/revenge should simply satisfy a sense of 'level up' in us, not be seen as a form of entertainment. 
 As a form of closure (one PC term I can live with) for those directly involved, and as indication that the legal and justice systems are carrying out the revenge for us on those who have wronged us.

Maybe normally placid people get bloodthirsty out of frustration with too many getting away with too much and focus the need to see justice/revenge carried out on one famous person in particular.

I don't hold with public executions, I doubt I would choose to watch someone who had murdered a loved one die, unless I could throw the switch.  Just knowing they were ended would suffice.  
I wouldn't want to sit in front of them and give them the chance to wink or grin as a final defiance.  I would rather them know that they were beneath my contempt and not worth the cab fare to watch.  
But what would upset me most would be those people who turn up simply for the fun of watching someone totally uninvolved with them die. That are treating 'my' revenge as their entertainment.  That is a worry.


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## MercyL (Oct 14, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Justice is just revenge dressed up in nice clothing.



And that is reality.

No matter how you dress it up, both concepts are still retribution differentiated by the mood supporting the actions taken in its name.

These nuances in language reflect what people are taught about their personal powers and rights.


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## Warrigal (Oct 14, 2013)

> "Justice must not only be done, but seen to be done."


The basic meaning?
For me it is that justice behind closed doors is not justice.
Neither is extraordinary rendition, secret prisons or assassinations.
Justice takes time, a frustratingly large amount of it.
It also requires consistency and cannot be arbitrary.
Above all, it requires objectivity rather than passion.

As for public executions, there must always be some witnesses 
but that is a long way away from the gallows in the town square.


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