# prisons



## justfred (Jun 10, 2018)

What are your views on prisons. Over here there is very little difference between a prison and a holiday hotel. The only difference being the 'guests' in prison cannot walk out when they feel like it. They have televisions, computers, a gym, games rooms and it does cost them a penny as the tax payer foots the bill
Should any criminal sent to prison be punished for the crime he or she has committed or as the authorities say 'for rehabilitation'


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## applecruncher (Jun 10, 2018)

Exactly where is "over here"?


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## Ruthanne (Jun 10, 2018)

justfred said:


> What are your views on prisons. Over here there is very little difference between a prison and a holiday hotel. The only difference being the 'guests' in prison cannot walk out when they feel like it. They have televisions, computers, a gym, games rooms and it does cost them a penny as the tax payer foots the bill
> Should any criminal sent to prison be punished for the crime he or she has committed or as the authorities say 'for rehabilitation'


I think rehabilitation works better.  Education on how to get on in society and classes for job skills, too.  That is for crimes that aren't so bad, though.  I think serial killers deserve much worse.


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## justfred (Jun 10, 2018)

What do you class as a 'not so bad' crime? Some would say that if an old lady is knocked down and mugged it is a minor crime but if the old lady was their own mother would they still say it is a minor crime? I agree people that commit minor crimes maybe should be rehabilitated but not go so far as to give them all these  privileges, the cost of which has to come from the tax payer. There are many out there who deliberately commit minor crimes so that they can get free board and lodgings for a while.


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## Sunny (Jun 10, 2018)

I think we should bring back the good old days in prisons; no more of this coddling nonsense.

https://www.google.com/search?q=old...7AkIQg&biw=1787&bih=827#imgrc=Q_Gf_vDPXyty6M:


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## terry123 (Jun 10, 2018)

Where is over here?  What country are you talking about?


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## Ken N Tx (Jun 10, 2018)




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## justfred (Jun 10, 2018)

terry123 said:


> Where is over here?  What country are you talking about?



Britain


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## Don M. (Jun 10, 2018)

I can have some sympathy for a "first time" offender who commits a non-violent crime.  However, for those with multiple arrests, or those who commit a violent crime, their treatment, IMO, should meet minimum requirements....food, a place to sleep, etc....and little else.  We spend billions every year warehousing criminals, and over half of them revert back to their "ways" after being released.  Prison Should be a form of punishment that might convince some of these thugs to clean up their act.  For the worst of them, they could Rot in a shack with little more than a cot to sleep on...IMO.


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2018)

Don M. said:


> I can have some sympathy for a "first time" offender who commits a non-violent crime.  However, for those with multiple arrests, or those who commit a violent crime, their treatment, IMO, should meet minimum requirements....food, a place to sleep, etc....and little else.  We spend billions every year warehousing criminals, and over half of them revert back to their "ways" after being released.  Prison Should be a form of punishment that might convince some of these thugs to clean up their act.  For the worst of them, they could Rot in a shack with little more than a cot to sleep on...IMO.




Exactly...ya don't like prison conditions ? & or the thought of having to endure them ?..........Don't go to prison / Behave....pretty simple concept.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 10, 2018)

IMO the old 80/20 rule probably applies to our current prison system. 

About 80% of the people should have a more constructive form of punishment that will allow them to develop skills that will allow them to lead productive lives and contribute to society. The remaining 20% should probably never see the light of day.

I think education and trades should be a large part of our prison system. 

IMO no prisoner should be released without a GED diploma and a marketable skill.

I also believe that in many cases prison is not the right solution. In many cases, I believe that we would be better off to allow a convicted criminal to remain in the community while limiting their freedom, sort of a compromise between prison and parole. A sentence that would include a monthly court-ordered restitution/support payment similar to the payment of alimony or child support in divorce cases. The money would benefit the victims and the freedom would require the convicted criminal to support themselves and their family instead of transferring that burden to the taxpayers.

I also think that we need to reevaluate what constitutes a crime and what justifies a prison sentence.  I think that too many young people are sitting in prison for stupid non-violent crimes and that some sort of organized community, state or national service might be a better option for them and the taxpayers.


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## Toorbulite (Jun 10, 2018)

There, but for the grace of "god", go I ....... 

Self-righteous, vengeful, irrational, judgmental "christians" ... give me the laxatives.


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## Sunny (Jun 10, 2018)

Maybe I should point out that I was being sarcastic in note #5.  Not sure if that was coming through.


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## StarSong (Jun 10, 2018)

Toorbulite said:


> There, but for the grace of "god", go I .......
> 
> Self-righteous, vengeful, irrational, judgmental "christians" ... give me the laxatives.



Say, what, Toorbulite?  I didn't read any religious reference in this thread until you injected one.

As for the topic at hand, I suppose the proof is in the pudding - the pudding in this case being recidivism.  Norway has among the planet's best appointed and least punitive prison systems.  Also among the very lowest rates of returnees.  http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12

Statistics seem to indicate that "punishing" criminals is akin to cutting our noses to spite our faces.  We take first-time offenders and create unemployable career criminals who can't get out of their own way.   

I agree with Aunt Bea.  Prison is often not the best way to manage early or minor criminal behavior.  It's expensive, dispiriting, and generally unhelpful from a long-term perspective.  

On the other hand, I have never been the victim of a serious crime, nor has anyone close to me.  I acknowledge that my liberal bias is likely at least partly based on that good fortune.


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## justfred (Jun 10, 2018)

Where do we draw the line between a minor crime and a major crime. 
How would you class stealing and wrecking a car?  A minor crime perhaps but if that was your car that you had worked hard and saved hard for years to be able to buy that car would you still class it as a minor crime? 
I still say that if someone commits a crime and gets a custodial sentence then yes rehabilitate them so that they think a life of crime is a no-no when they are released but whilst they are behind bars they should not have the privileges like televisions computers, mobile phones, pool tables etc; 
Just my opinion.


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## Shalimar (Jun 10, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Say, what, Toorbulite?  I didn't read any religious reference in this thread until you injected one.
> 
> As for the topic at hand, I suppose the proof is in the pudding - the pudding in this case being recidivism.  Norway has among the planet's best appointed and least punitive prison systems.  Also among the very lowest rates of returnees.  http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12
> 
> ...


I agree with you and Aunt Bea.


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## Sunny (Jun 10, 2018)

justfred, are you sure about the privileges you are mentioning?  Computers, mobile phones, etc.?  TV I can believe, but do they really have unlimited freedom to reach the outside world on computers and phones?

Even if they do, those things are small potatoes when compared with the enormity of losing one's freedom to go and come when you like, as any free human being would have. Imagine being trapped in a locked facility for years of your life, in the company of many who are mentally ill, have a criminal mindset, etc.  Doors keep slamming, the food is lousy, illness is rampant, often things are unclean, angry inmates keep hurling threats and insults at each other, there is no privacy and basically no decency in your life. (And remember, some of the inmates have been wrongfully convicted.)

Would you consider having a TV to watch enough compensation for the punishment of losing your freedom and being stuck for years in that hellish environment? I don't think so.  How many of us would change places with a single person behind bars, no matter how "luxurious" their prison is?

Back in the days of the Puritans, people were humiliated and were locked up in stocks (or worse).  To some extent, we have grown more civilized since then, but we still have a long way to go, to escape the
punitive mindset that wants to make the "bad guys" suffer. (Whether they are guilty of the crime or not.)

If my car was stolen, I would probably be happy to see the guilty party lose his freedom for a while. But I have no desire to pile punishment upon punishment. Just the loss of freedom is punishment enough.


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Maybe I should point out that I was being sarcastic in note #5.  Not sure if that was coming through.




Why apologize ?......if the conditions were such, and it was well known? Don't you think the crime rate would be allot lower ?

Stricter punishment is the answer, not softer.

I read where , in Washington , going back roughly two years they no longer call the prisoners 'prisoners' & or 'inmates' They refer to them as 'students'. As per the article , this is because the terms inmate & or prisoner have a negative connotation, and effect the [so-called] self esteem of the ...ahemmm students.

Sorry but this is PC gone nuts & is ridiculous !


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## terry123 (Jun 10, 2018)

I agree with stricter punishment.  As I have mentioned before my brother has been in law enforcement all his life and has seen it all.  Most of them go right back to their life of crime and don't want anything better. I think if they want something better than they will do something better.  My brother's wife is a retired probation officer and knows better than anyone else what happens. I agree that the PC is nuts these days!


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## Shalimar (Jun 10, 2018)

Sunny said:


> justfred, are you sure about the privileges you are mentioning?  Computers, mobile phones, etc.?  TV I can believe, but do they really have unlimited freedom to reach the outside world on computers and phones?
> 
> Even if they do, those things are small potatoes when compared with the enormity of losing one's freedom to go and come when you like, as any free human being would have. Imagine being trapped in a locked facility for years of your life, in the company of many who are mentally ill, have a criminal mindset, etc.  Doors keep slamming, the food is lousy, illness is rampant, often things are unclean, angry inmates keep hurling threats and insults at each other, there is no privacy and basically no decency in your life. (And remember, some of the inmates have been wrongfully convicted.)
> 
> ...


Absolutely.


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## 911 (Jun 10, 2018)

Sending people to prison today has nothing to do with rehabilitation. The idea of rehabbing prisoners left the building long ago. Today, we have a new kind of prisoner. Most will resist being rehabbed. Most want to do nothing, except to lay in his cage and think of what horrible thing he can do next to a guard. Most prisoners have a job, except in super max prisons, where it's best to keep the animals in their cages and locked. How would you like to be a member of an extraction team in a prison and have to remove a prisoner from his cell? 

I have seen extractions. They can get really nasty at times if the prisoner resists and the bigger he is, the worse it can be. I have seen prisoners spit at and on guards, throw their feces and urine on guards and also inside their cell on the walls, mattress, etc. I have seen prisoners stick their finger down their throat so they can throw up on a guard and even stand next to a guard and pee on them. 

It's also what prisoners do to each other that makes some of these prisoners come to be called animals. We have all heard about the rapes that go on and that's not a fairy tale. Some rapes are very brutal. Here in Pennsylvania, at the one prison I attended for training, we have a cell block for juvenile offenders. During my training there, we had a fellow that was 15 when he was incarcerated for killing his Mom. I happened to be there when just after he turned 18 and was transferred to the adult wing. It was only about 3 or 4 days later when this kid showed up for morning role call all bloody, hair pulled out, burn marks on his face and arms, clothes torn and no shoes or socks. He must have went through hell at some point during the night. He was put in a cell with another lifer, only he was in his 40's and a much bigger man. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that he was the person that dished out the punishment. Sure, we pull him out of his cell and put him in solitary confinement, but so what? He's in for life. What else are we going to do to him? 

Almost every prisoner carries some kind of shank on him or in a handy hiding place where he can get his hands on it when and if necessary. Everyday, yes, everyday, fights break out, either in the yard or inside the common areas. Prisoners today are mean, viscous and brutal. Most of the young ones up until about 50 or so years of age belong to a gang. Being in a gang affords them protection, or so they think. Gang fights or gang wars as they like to call them, also happen frequently. 

Being in prison is like having no life and having to watch your back 24/7. There is always someone pissed off at you and even if there isn't, there are times when one prisoner just wants to stick another one to make him feel good. A prisoner can never trust what's in his food, especially if he has enemies working in the kitchen. It's Hell at its worse. 

And last, do not mistake prison for your local county jail. It's like comparing kindergarten to high school.


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## KingsX (Jun 10, 2018)

justfred said:


> What are your views on prisons.




I have a Biblical view,  under Bible law there are no prison punishments [therefore no prisons, no appeals, no plea bargains, no time off for good behavior, etc.]

Either one is immediately punished or makes restitution then returned to society... or [for certain crimes]  one is executed.

.


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## StarSong (Jun 10, 2018)

911 said:


> Sending people to prison today has nothing to do with rehabilitation. The idea of rehabbing prisoners left the building long ago. Today, we have a new kind of prisoner. Most will resist being rehabbed. Most want to do nothing, except to lay in his cage and think of what horrible thing he can do next to a guard. Most prisoners have a job, except in super max prisons, where it's best to keep the animals in their cages and locked. How would you like to be a member of an extraction team in a prison and have to remove a prisoner from his cell?
> 
> I have seen extractions. They can get really nasty at times if the prisoner resists and the bigger he is, the worse it can be. I have seen prisoners spit at and on guards, throw their feces and urine on guards and also inside their cell on the walls, mattress, etc. I have seen prisoners stick their finger down their throat so they can throw up on a guard and even stand next to a guard and pee on them.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt any of this for a moment, 911.  I despair over it, particularly over the ones who can be (and want to be) rehabilitated, but I sure don't doubt what you're saying.  Thank you for taking the time to type it out.  Very scary stuff.


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## Gary O' (Jun 10, 2018)

911 said:


> And last, do not mistake prison for your local county jail. It's like comparing kindergarten to high school.



yup


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## justfred (Jun 11, 2018)

Sunny.
In answer to your query 'Are things really like this' The answer is Yes!! If an inmate complained of the way he/she is being treated we have a band of do gooders  claiming we are depriving them of their Human Rights. To me those that commit serious crimes have no human rights and should be severely punished and these human rights busy bodies should keep their noses out.
By the way, I hang my head in shame, I have a criminal record. In 1944 I was caught giving a friend  a ride on the crossbar of my bicycle and was fined the sum of two shillings and sixpence.


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## Sunny (Jun 11, 2018)

So, by your own definition, you had no human rights and should have been locked up in a dungeon?


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## justfred (Jun 11, 2018)

If the crime is serious nature then yes!


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## 911 (Jun 11, 2018)

justfred said:


> Sunny.
> In answer to your query 'Are things really like this' The answer is Yes!! If an inmate complained of the way he/she is being treated we have a band of do gooders  claiming we are depriving them of their Human Rights. To me those that commit serious crimes have no human rights and should be severely punished and these human rights busy bodies should keep their noses out.
> By the way, I hang my head in shame, I have a criminal record. In 1944 I was caught giving a friend  a ride on the crossbar of my bicycle and was fined the sum of two shillings and sixpence.





Well, Fred, I have to tell you that here in the U.S. most Americans really don’t care about prisoner rights. They are, however, treated humanely, unless they give the guards no other choice. We have low security to maximum security to what is now called “ Super Max” prisons. The more severe the crime, the more severe the punishment and the crimes committed determine what prison the convict is placed in. 

Normally, here in Pennsylvania, either a local police department or a marshall will handle transferring a prisoner from one jail to another. I’m looking at my journal as I write this, so the facts should be fairly correct. Back in 1997, another Trooper and myself were assigned to go to Baltimore and collect a prisoner and bring him back to PA. So, the next morning we head down there and get to the prison at about 9:30. The guards asked us what kind of vehicle we had. We’re like, “What does that matter?” 

They bring out this huge dude that’s six foot 10 inches tall and weighs in at just over 300 pounds. We knew that there was no way that we were going to be able to stick this guy in the backseat of our car and drive him 140 miles. We called the Barrack’s Commander and he tells us, “Oh, yeah. I forgot to tell you guys about his size.” It was also our fault for not reading his stats. So, anyway, we had to drive back to our barracks and change our car for a van. Then, we had to stop at U-Haul and rent a bunch of furniture pads, so the prisoner could have a comfy seat on the floor of the van. 

The dude was to be arraigned the next day before a judge on six counts of rape, plus other charges. The whole time that he was in our custody, his only words spoken to us was to tell us what he wanted to eat and that he had to use the restroom twice. 

He treated us respectfully and never gave us one problem. It just makes me wonder what goes wrong with people at times that makes them do the terrible things that they do.


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## Toorbulite (Jun 11, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Say, what, Toorbulite?  I didn't read any religious reference in this thread until you injected one...............


Quite so, Star !
But I wasn't responding to any prior post - just stating my own view.
It seems to me (right or wrong) that many of the most gung-ho advocates of harsh punishments are often religious folk.

Americans have the highest % of "born agains" anywhere - and amongst the highest '_lock 'em up_' rates. A coincidence ?
Some interesting stats - prison population *per 100,000*.
India    33
Japan   45
Finland 57
France 102
U.K.    140(ish)
Aus     167
USA     *655  *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Does the U.S. have a far, far higher percentage of crims* or* is the "_throw away the key_" mentality counter-productive.
Gotta be one or the other.


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## Sunny (Jun 13, 2018)

> It seems to me (right or wrong) that many of the most gung-ho advocates of harsh punishments are often religious folk.



Cherchez la religion!


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## Manatee (Jun 13, 2018)

Disused prisons make interesting museums after the miscreants are moved elsewhere.  We have been to one in Deer Lodge, Montana and another in Yuma, Arizona.  We did not get out to Alcatraz when we were in San Francisco.  The one in Melbourne Australia was complete with a gallows.

I got a tour of "tent city" in Arizona, which is an active jail.  They had an interesting display of confiscated contraband that had been snuck in.


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## Butterfly (Jun 13, 2018)

911 said:


> Sending people to prison today has nothing to do with rehabilitation. The idea of rehabbing prisoners left the building long ago. Today, we have a new kind of prisoner. Most will resist being rehabbed. Most want to do nothing, except to lay in his cage and think of what horrible thing he can do next to a guard. Most prisoners have a job, except in super max prisons, where it's best to keep the animals in their cages and locked. How would you like to be a member of an extraction team in a prison and have to remove a prisoner from his cell?
> 
> I have seen extractions. They can get really nasty at times if the prisoner resists and the bigger he is, the worse it can be. I have seen prisoners spit at and on guards, throw their feces and urine on guards and also inside their cell on the walls, mattress, etc. I have seen prisoners stick their finger down their throat so they can throw up on a guard and even stand next to a guard and pee on them.
> 
> ...



My husband worked as a prison guard after he retired from the military, and he said exactly the same things, and we have much the same things going on even in juvenile detention facilities. Here in NM we have all kinds of violent prison gangs, too.

When I was still working, we had to visit clients in prison a time or two (thank God this was very rare) and being inside there, especially after several sets of doors had clanged shut behind us, gave me the very serious creeps (to say the least) even though we always had pretty serious looking escorts.  I couldn't help thinking about the disastrous prison riot we had here during the late 70s.

Anyway, I have no idea what the answer is, but I feel strongly that we can't just have violent criminals who have committed unimaginable acts walking around among us, and I don't know what else we could do with them except imprison them.  Most people have no idea of the awfulness of the things some of those people have done to other human beings.  Sometimes when working on an appeal and looking at evidence photos, transcripts, etc., I would just have to go outside the office and look at trees for a while to get ahold of myself.  There were a couple of cases that still occasionally creep into my nightmares.


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## Toorbulite (Jun 13, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> ........ we can't just have violent criminals who have committed unimaginable acts walking around among us........


I'm sure nobody would disagree with that, Butterfly.
But I wonder just how many of the millions of imprisoned Americans fall into that category ?

“_TOO many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law-enforcement reason_.” 
The person who said that was neither a defence lawyer, nor a prisoners’-rights advocate, nor a European looking down his nose across the Atlantic.
It was instead America’s top law-enforcement official, Eric Holder, the (*then*) attorney general. (*2013*)

https://www.economist.com/the-econo...oes-america-have-such-a-big-prison-population


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## oldman (Jun 14, 2018)

I don't think prison today is about rehabbing people. I think it is now just punishment. I also agree with Butterfly, we can't have violent people walking around in society among the rest of us. I have read that the U.S. spends an awful lot of money (the last number that I can remember reading was about $100 billion) warehousing these violent people, but what is the alternate choice? I certainly don't have the answer. 

Just think how many kids we could send to college for no cost if we didn't have to spend so much on prisoners. Or how much more we could do for seniors, or how much more we could spend on disease research. It overwhelms me at times.


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## Butterfly (Jun 14, 2018)

I think it would help a lot if we would quit throwing people in prison for minor drug use infractions.  Not talking about trafficking, but possession for personal use.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 14, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I think it would help a lot if we would quit throwing people in prison for minor drug use infractions. Not talking about trafficking, but possession for personal use.



I agree those dollars would be better spent on treatment plans.

IMO it all boils down to the length of the sentence and whether or not we are a society that believes in second chances.

If the person's sentence will allow them to rejoin society we owe it to everyone involved to educate and rehabilitate the prisoner to the extent possible before they become our next door neighbor.

I don't see how a person can be expected to make a new life when they are released from prison with $40.00, a bus ticket and the clothes on their back.  It seems like a recipe for failure/disaster to me.  The good news is that it appears to keep the current system in business.


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## 911 (Jun 14, 2018)

*"I agree those dollars would be better spent on treatment plans."

*I may agree to a point if the crime committed was a victimless crime, such as embezzlement, theft by deception, etc. However, when you start talking about hardened criminals and gang related crimes, most of those people are not able to be reformed because it's their choice to be a life long bad-ass. Then, we also have pedophiles that are not even curable as is many serial rapists and other sex crimes. As for drug possession in small quantities, for the last several years now, I have noticed judges backing off of long term sentencing. If a person goes before the court because he had a ounce of weed, chances are that person would not see any jail time. In fact, he may be given second and third chances before the person would even see any county time. The judges now are more likely to hand down stiff fines and community service work, rather than jail time, especially if he needs to work and support his family. 

Here in PA, we have a matrix we use to determine the degree of the offense. For example: If I would find multiple bags of Cocaine, or even weed for that matter, I could charge you with intent to deal or supply. Actually, this whole thing really gets complicated. There are several factors when determining what the degree of the felony is going to be charged. It all boils down to how much and what substance you are holding in your possession. Of course, the more a person has on him, the more severe is the degree and so is the punishment. 

I remember arresting a family man of about 35 years of age that was caught stealing money from a youth organization that he was the treasurer for. He ended up getting 2 years in jail with one year suspended, 50 hours of community service work and a $2500.00 fine. He was out in six months, but his employer didn't hold his job for him, so he was also jobless. Ironically, I drove past his house everyday on my way to work. After about a month, maybe less, I noticed that his pickup was no longer in the driveway when I would go to work at night, so I was fairly certain that he did get another job.


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## StarSong (Jun 14, 2018)

"I may agree to a point if the crime committed was a victimless crime, such as embezzlement, theft by deception, etc."

I must take issue with that statement, 911.  Since when is embezzlement or theft by deception a victimless crime?  I've known people who were defrauded by both of these crimes.  Trust me, people who get scammed or defrauded out of tens of thousands of dollars consider themselves victims.

Prostitution is closer to a victimless crime in that both parties are technically willing participants. Even so, prostitutes pressed onto the streets by pimps or the need to generate drug money are in actuality victims - as are the residents of the neighborhoods where those acts occur.


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## Sunny (Jun 14, 2018)

Yes, the first one that popped into my head was Bernie Madoff.  I think he deserves to be exactly where he is, in prison, more than some guy smoking pot.


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## rgp (Jun 14, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Yes, the first one that popped into my head was Bernie Madoff.  I think he deserves to be exactly where he is, in prison, more than some guy smoking pot.




Maybe, maybe not?...Consider this...from the information known , news reports, articles written, heard on talk radio & a made for TV movie. All of the "victims" were people looking for a an easy score , to reap huge profit through investment returns . During that time, he was proclaiming / promising,.. huge percent return , in a short time on investments. Something like 12-15% [as I recall] Within 12-18 months. ? 

Now I am no financial / investment wizard , but when I heard it....I thought no way in hell. At a time when rates were fluctuating , and at lower figures ?! Belief in what they wanted to believe & greed is what drained the savings of most of his "victims" . 

I'm not saying he should not have been punished in some manner ? Incarcerated for some time? But again [opinion] his "victims" were not innocent. Greed got the better of them.


From an article about it.........

All the investors who lost everything made the classic investing mistake of putting all their eggs in one basket. Always remember that you should never put more than five to 10 percent of your assets in any one investment. A good investment may report that your returns may be 12 percent one year, six percent the next and just two percent the next, so you can expect a return of about 6.67%. Don't believe anyone who promises 10 to 12 percent consistently each and every year.


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## Toorbulite (Jun 14, 2018)

Now I really do have to take* 911* to task !
This is serious stuff !


"_Nothing *good* happens after 2:00 a.m_."
That's about the time I *start* communicating with Yanks online (because you're roughly 14 hours _behind_ Australia.) 
And that has to be a "good" thing, surely. layful:


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## Butterfly (Jun 14, 2018)

rgp said:


> Maybe, maybe not?...Consider this...from the information known , news reports, articles written, heard on talk radio & a made for TV movie. All of the "victims" were people looking for a an easy score , to reap huge profit through investment returns . During that time, he was proclaiming / promising,.. huge percent return , in a short time on investments. Something like 12-15% [as I recall] Within 12-18 months. ?
> 
> Now I am no financial / investment wizard , but when I heard it....I thought no way in hell. At a time when rates were fluctuating , and at lower figures ?! Belief in what they wanted to believe & greed is what drained the savings of most of his "victims" .
> 
> ...



Yeah, but those investors trying to make a profit were not out to break the law and profiteer at the cost of someone else, like Madoff was.  You can't hold the conman harmless just because the people he conned were stupid enough to believe his con.


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## justfred (Jun 15, 2018)

Butterfly.
Re your statement "just because the people he conned were stupid enough to believe his con"
Over here in this country (England) elderly people are being conned out of hard earned savings by the kind of people you are talking about. We must remember that many elderly are very vulnerable and I have seen some of these scams that have been sent to them. They are created by very clever people and appear so genuine that many, mostly elderly vulnerable people fall for them. Another scam over here that  appears so genuine is by telephone. Someone will ring claiming to be from your bank and will talk you out of giving your bank details.  People have been warned time and time again that this is a scam and banks and building societies will never ask for details over the phone but sadly many of our elderly are taken in and end up losing all their savings. I do not class these victims as 'stupid' Their brain cells are not as active when they get older. I am in my nineties but thankfully still have my wits about me but I must say that at times I have received letters and phone calls that make me wonder but to be on the safe side I ignore.


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## 911 (Jun 15, 2018)

StarSong said:


> "I may agree to a point if the crime committed was a victimless crime, such as embezzlement, theft by deception, etc."
> 
> I must take issue with that statement, 911.  Since when is embezzlement or theft by deception a victimless crime?  I've known people who were defrauded by both of these crimes.  Trust me, people who get scammed or defrauded out of tens of thousands of dollars consider themselves victims.
> 
> Prostitution is closer to a victimless crime in that both parties are technically willing participants. Even so, prostitutes pressed onto the streets by pimps or the need to generate drug money are in actuality victims - as are the residents of the neighborhoods where those acts occur.




You can take issue all you want. Here in PA and many other states, so long as no injuries are involved, it's considered a victimless crime. Not disagreeing that some people may be hurt financially, but as they say, no blood, no foul. 

Prostitution in this state is also considered a victimless crime. Both the prostitute and the john will be sentenced accordingly, however, unless they have been to court on multiple occasions for the same offense, it's unlikely that they will see any jail time. 

I have been to prisons in different states, but none compares to Angola in Louisiana. There are many supermax prisons in the U.S., so there may be a worse one, but I visited Angola for a training session back about 20 years ago and I saw guys in there that even scared the crap out of me. Gangs control Angola and even though they are locked in their cages for most of the day, they are still able to communicate with one another and do their business, like selling drugs. I think Angola may be the largest supermax prison in the U.S. Anyone in there, we do not want them out on the streets.


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## Sunny (Jun 15, 2018)

I think running scams on the order of what Madoff did could not be considered a "victimless" crime. I once saw a documentary about him, and some of the elderly people who were interviewed had lost their life savings. They
were not motivated by greed, at least many of them were not, any more than any ordinary person who buys a few shares of stock. They trusted Madoff, some of them knew him personally, and they were wiped out. He took
advantage of that trust, and couldn't care less that his Ponzi scheme would eventually leave them in the dust. If that isn't victimizing someone, I don't know what is.


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I think running scams on the order of what Madoff did could not be considered a "victimless" crime. I once saw a documentary about him, and some of the elderly people who were interviewed had lost their life savings. They
> were not motivated by greed, at least many of them were not, any more than any ordinary person who buys a few shares of stock. They trusted Madoff, some of them knew him personally, and they were wiped out. He took
> advantage of that trust, and couldn't care less that his Ponzi scheme would eventually leave them in the dust. If that isn't victimizing someone, I don't know what is.



I completely agree, Sunny, and wonder if this is a matter of semantics.  Perhaps "victim" at one time referred exclusively to a personal injury crime.  PA criminal statutes were likely written 300 years ago or more. 

One of my elderly relatives was phone scammed out of more than $10K.  Believe me, he was victimized.


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## rgp (Jun 15, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Yeah, but those investors trying to make a profit were not out to break the law and profiteer at the cost of someone else, like Madoff was.  You can't hold the conman harmless just because the people he conned were stupid enough to believe his con.





Exactly where did I say he was harmless?

I did & do say ...indeed the investors were stupid....& greedy.


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## 911 (Jun 15, 2018)

I think the hang up here is in the terminology. When I refer to a victimless crime, it means that no one has suffered any physical injuries. However, when the law ia applied, it would be more like a speeding violation or someone littering. 

Judges also cofuse the two types of  the term “victimless crime” as well. One judge may say during sentencing of a defendant that has been convicted of robbery, “Thankfully, no one was injured during your breaking and entering and the theft of goods and money. Had anyone been victimized, the sentence would be much worse.”

I do want to say this about Bernie Madoff. Had we not had the financial collapse that we did, Mr. Madoff would probably still be in business. Bernie left behind a number of victims from his schemes, although some of it has been recovered, but I will believe to the day that I die, Bernie has some money stashed somewhere. There is just too much that has not been accounted for to think otherwise.


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## Sunny (Jun 15, 2018)

Interesting, 911.  You could be right.


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## Butterfly (Jun 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> Exactly where did I say he was harmless?
> 
> I did & do say ...indeed the investors were stupid....& greedy.



A "hold harmless" agreement protects one of the participants from liability.  What I meant by that was just because his victims were gullible and fell for his con does not make him less liable for his actions.  Thus, he shouldn't be "held harmless."  

I never said he was harmless.

And even though his victims might have been "stupid and greedy" doesn't make him any less a crook.  Stupid and greedy are not crimes.  Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them.


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## rgp (Jun 15, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> A "hold harmless" agreement protects one of the participants from liability.  What I meant by that was just because his victims were gullible and fell for his con does not make him less liable for his actions.  Thus, he shouldn't be "held harmless."
> 
> I never said he was harmless.
> 
> And even though his victims might have been "stupid and greedy" doesn't make him any less a crook.  Stupid and greedy are not crimes.  Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them.




Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.

   As for.......

  "Stupid and greedy are not crimes. Con games are. And HE was greedier than all of them."

       "Con games are."......... Perhaps they shouldn't be ?....what ever happened to buyer beware ?

 I am not absolving him from _any_ wrong-doing....But it gets old hearing people saying...essentially , I was stupid & i fell for this or that.....well perhaps don't be so damn stupid. We always seem ready to hold _some_ responsible for their actions....why not the others? If we as a society would stop [in so many incidences] running to the rescue....maybe people would learn?


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.
> 
> As for.......
> 
> ...



You're so right.  
Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting  crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and  accessible.  
Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable  in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or  impaired.  
When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.  

Yes, let's stop running to the rescue of those who were victimized.  Simply by existing they share in the blame.


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## Shalimar (Jun 15, 2018)

StarSong said:


> You're so right.
> Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting  crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and  accessible.
> Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable  in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or  impaired.
> When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.
> ...


Qft.


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## RadishRose (Jun 15, 2018)

_"what ever happened to buyer beware ?"

_Not every one is capable of the awareness in these times of electronic "persuasion".


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## Butterfly (Jun 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> Exactly...you tried to say {I} said he was harmless...which I did not.
> 
> As for.......
> 
> ...



Once again, I NEVER said you said he was harmless.  I said we could not hold him harmless simply because his victims were greedy.  Look up "hold harmless" and see what it means.  Hold harmless is a phrase used to mean holding one party to on agreement harmless from liability.  It's a commonly used quasi-legal term.  

And, no matter how "stupid" or "greedy" Madoff's victims were, he still cheated them out of their money; he preyed on those less knowledgeable than he, and he broke the law.


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## Butterfly (Jun 15, 2018)

StarSong said:


> You're so right.
> Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting  crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and  accessible.
> Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable  in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or  impaired.
> When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.
> ...



You forgot to mention women who are not covered up between chin and ankle when they go out, because they are obviously "asking for it."


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## Butterfly (Jun 15, 2018)

911 said:


> You can take issue all you want. Here in PA and many other states, so long as no injuries are involved, it's considered a victimless crime. Not disagreeing that some people may be hurt financially, but as they say, no blood, no foul.
> 
> Prostitution in this state is also considered a victimless crime. Both the prostitute and the john will be sentenced accordingly, however, unless they have been to court on multiple occasions for the same offense, it's unlikely that they will see any jail time.
> 
> I have been to prisons in different states, but none compares to Angola in Louisiana. There are many supermax prisons in the U.S., so there may be a worse one, but I visited Angola for a training session back about 20 years ago and I saw guys in there that even scared the crap out of me. Gangs control Angola and even though they are locked in their cages for most of the day, they are still able to communicate with one another and do their business, like selling drugs. I think Angola may be the largest supermax prison in the U.S. Anyone in there, we do not want them out on the streets.



There an awful lot of people in prisons who are beyond all rehabilitation and should NEVER be out.


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> There an awful lot of people in prisons who are beyond all rehabilitation and should NEVER be out.



I agree with this while knowing that some can rehabilitate themselves and find a way to positively affect others.  Even during confinement.


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## rgp (Jun 15, 2018)

StarSong said:


> You're so right.
> Retailers should be held equally responsible for shoplifting  crimes because they foolishly make their merchandise so attractive and  accessible.
> Dumb people who get hit by drunk drivers are also culpable  in the wrecks - they should know by the news reports that some drivers are drunk or  impaired.
> When a child gets kidnapped, raped, beaten, or murdered, no tears or justice for the naive family who knew the risk when they chose to have children.
> ...




 That's an apples & oranges comparison & you know it....I stand by my opinion.


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## StarSong (Jun 15, 2018)

rgp said:


> That's an apples & oranges comparison & you know it....I stand by my opinion.



And I, mine.


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## Elsie (Jun 16, 2018)

I agree...."I also think that we need to reevaluate what constitutes a crime and what justifies a prison sentence.  I think that too many young people are sitting in prison for stupid non-violent crimes and that some sort of organized community, state or national service might be a better option for them and the taxpayers...."

Saw a documentary on prison solitary confinement.  Whenever a young man confined prisoner cracked up over his agoraphobic ongoing confinement--like bashing his head against the iron door window into a bleeding mess over & over again, he was charged with weeks more confinement!  What a STUPID, ridiculous and cruel non-solution to his behavior!  His crime was minor but he had been belligerent to officers so off to solitary confinement with him.  I don't remember if he mentally ended up okay.  (like sane...)


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## Phoenix (Jun 16, 2018)

When my brother was imprisoned for murder, it was what was best for the community and for all of us who loved him.    I'm afraid there was no helping him.  He died in a prison hospital in the summer of 2016.

What to do with prisoners is a growing dilemma.  I agree that too many are put in prison for minor offenses, like coming to this the U.S. seeking asylum.  This has to change.


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## DaveA (Jun 17, 2018)

If one looks up "For profit" prisons and incarceration rates, that could be part of the answer.  The states that have large numbers of these prisons are largely in the South and Midwest and their  incarceration rates are far higher (with a few exceptions) than states with government run prisons.  Googling "For profit prison by states" or similar wording should bring up the chart.

There's a strong incentive to keep these prison full at all times and lobbying efforts tend to shift policies to achieve this goal. And please, let's  not shift this to murderers and rapists running wild in the streets.  Every sensible person discussing this matter is normally referring to fringe crimes, the pot smoker (not dealer) comes to mind.  Read the articles or charts and see if you think that their is a possible connection between  "profits and prisoners".


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 23, 2021)

justfred, you said, " over here" meaning the UK, but I think "over here' could be anywhere in the developed world. I'm not sure I want prisons to be hell holes. Nobody thinks they are going to wind up in jail. They're all too smart. And most are going to come back out again. You don't want some traumatized psychopath running around. And frankly, I don't know if jail works. Yeah, it gets some of them off the street for a while. And I don't have any problem welding shut the cell door of any murderer. We just don't know how to intervene to prevent criminal behavior. Jails, and torture don't work, if they did we wouldn't have people to throw into them. I think it's people are complex. They aren't one thing or another. If you look at those mobsters, who were hitmen. Most of them were married, and were loving parents. I wish I knew what really works with criminals. I do understand why people aren't happy with convicts living in a country club. Outside of making us feel better about someone getting "punishment" for his crime, I'm not sure  "harsh conditions" have any benefit.


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## Pepper (Feb 23, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Maybe I should point out that I was being sarcastic in note #5.  Not sure if that was coming through.


Glad you pointed that out.  I was getting worried about you!!!!


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## jerry old (Feb 23, 2021)

Anything that depends on taxpayer's monies is going to be inadequate.
Trying to get taxpayers to understand the dynamics in prison  and then pay increased taxes is a hard sale.

(Pay heed to 911's post. he knows what he is talking about)

There are bad people in prison
There are semi-bad people in prison
The bulk of inmates are there for substance abuse offenses-some are criminals, some are not...
The substance abuse issues continue, we do not know how to deal with it.

If you are in a confined setting 24 hours a day it alters your outlook on all things.

Answers-I have none;
The American Criminal Justice System is a disgrace
The American Prison System is a disgrace.


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## JonDouglas (Feb 23, 2021)

Some thoughts about prisons, having spent some time in one (as a guest, but more about that later) and grown up in a town with a prison three blocks down from the house I grew up in.

Prisons today are where career criminals and gamg members get their street creds.  For these people, prison is less a deterrent and more something desired. This leads to overcrowding and gang control of the yards
Prison is one place where destitute people can get three squares and warm bed.   This leads to overcrowding
Prisons are overcrowded and understaffed,  making them dangerous places that, in turn, makes it more difficult to get staff.
Prison racism and gang activity are on the rise, as are health problems that follow overcrowding and staff shortages.
Justice is slow and can be a joke to the criminal mind.
In the 1950s you could see prison inmates called "trustees" walking about in town doing menial work for wages.  Prisoners also worked on the prison farm to grew the food for the prison and in the shops making things.   Prisoners who were industrious and behaved were treated well.  Others, not so well.  The decisions and directions a prisoner had to make/take were binary, with consequences in each direction.

The prison had Friday night movies for the trustees and family members of the guards.  I used to go with the kid behind me, whose father was a guard, to these movies.  We sat in the theater with the prisoners.  The prison was well staffed, working there was considered a good job and problems were severely dealt with.  Things went down hill in the years after I left home.  What was once a decent, orderly place became a hell hole as the political winds and associated funding targets shifted.  The idea of consequences has gotten lost as society has become more litigious and societal norms changed.


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## OneEyedDiva (Feb 23, 2021)

rgp said:


> Exactly...ya don't like prison conditions ? & or the thought of having to endure them ?..........Don't go to prison / Behave....pretty simple concept.


You just don't get it do you? Some people who are in prison shouldn't be there. This is particularly true for the Black and Brown people. I just read of about four exonerations based on DNA evidence in the past month. The justice system is not equal, regardless of the "scales of justice" symbol. This has been proven time and time again, so don't bother to debate it with me. The Central Park 5 who were teens at the time, were coerced by cops into admitting to a rape they did not commit and were finally exonerated. A Black woman was sentenced to 20 years for firing a into the wall of her home to ward off an abusive husband. Why didn't the Florida Stand Your Ground Law apply to her?  
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fla-wo...rs-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/
A White woman can do much worse and get a slap on the wrist.  Now I will say this...if someone does in fact commit a crime, especially a heinous one, they should be punished to the full extent of the law, I don't care who they are. The following applies to you as well.

Re the OP: For a look at what the prison systems are really about in the U.S. check out this Netflix documentary.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E358C1BAE66682BE0921E35&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


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## Jondalar7 (Feb 23, 2021)

I used to be part of a group that went into the prisons and put on three day Christian workshops and started a halfway house to help the guys after they got out. Some facts about the system we knew was that 76% of the guys in prison did not know where there next meal was coming from when they were on the outside. They did not hold steady jobs. 2018 study showed that 86% were arrested after release. 36% in the first three years. What I heard from the guys inside was that it was a right of passage and gave you bragging rights back on the street. They often had family inside too, like a family thing. No shame, no regret for what they did just for getting caught. Listening to them was like being at an AA meeting where the people get to tell haw really bad they were. 
I think prison should be hell on earth, someplace even the bad guys are afraid to go. You want to rehabilitate them...Put them to work. Most of them never had to work, just getting up and doing a days work is an education. Teach them the things they should have learned as kids. Do your chores then you get to eat. Chain gangs used to get a lot of public work done.


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## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2021)

Jondalar7 said:


> I used to be part of a group that went into the prisons and put on three day Christian workshops and started a halfway house to help the guys after they got out. Some facts about the system we knew was that 76% of the guys in prison did not know where there next meal was coming from when they were on the outside. They did not hold steady jobs. 2018 study showed that 86% were arrested after release. 36% in the first three years. What I heard from the guys inside was that it was a right of passage and gave you bragging rights back on the street. They often had family inside too, like a family thing. No shame, no regret for what they did just for getting caught. Listening to them was like being at an AA meeting where the people get to tell haw really bad they were.
> I think prison should be hell on earth, someplace even the bad guys are afraid to go. You want to rehabilitate them...Put them to work. Most of them never had to work, just getting up and doing a days work is an education. Teach them the things they should have learned as kids. Do your chores then you get to eat. Chain gangs used to get a lot of public work done.


   Guess you didn’t read Diva’s post. Two different worlds here.


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## Jondalar7 (Feb 23, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Guess you didn’t read Diva’s post. Two different worlds here.


Both are true. I met a guy who was a carpenter like me and was in for two years. He was taken away from a good job because he violated a restraining order from his ex wife three times. No confrontations, he claims he was just trying to get his tools back. Not every person deserves the punishment they get but we have a system of justice that works most of the time. I think it is better to put away a few that do not deserve it than to not put away as many violent people as possible. I think we should have public floggings for minor crimes and death penalty for 1st degree murder within six months. In response to Diva's post, men between the ages of 20 to 38 commit a majority of the crimes in this country so it just stands to be that they will be subject to the failures in our system more often. It is not the fault of our prison system but the fault of our society full of over indulged whiners.


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## Shalimar (Feb 23, 2021)

Jondalar7 said:


> Both are true. I met a guy who was a carpenter like me and was in for two years. He was taken away from a good job because he violated a restraining order from his ex wife three times. No confrontations, he claims he was just trying to get his tools back. Not every person deserves the punishment they get but we have a system of justice that works most of the time. I think it is better to put away a few that do not deserve it than to not put away as many violent people as possible. I think we should have public floggings for minor crimes and death penalty for 1st degree murder within six months. In response to Diva's post, men between the ages of 20 to 38 commit a majority of the crimes in this country so it just stands to be that they will be subject to the failures in our system more often. It is not the fault of our prison system but the fault of our society full of over indulged whiners.


 Adult flogging for minor crimes? Like in Singapore and Saudi Arabia? Not in a democracy. Good way to foment a revolution.  Diva’s   post pertains to race, and that is the fault of prison systems in your country and in mine, where being a person of colour greatly increases one‘s chance of being incarcerated whether or not one is guilty, or the punishment fits the crime. In Canada, it is primarily indigenous people who face that particular inequality.


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## asp3 (Feb 23, 2021)

I just read about the Norwegian prison system in a book called Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman and it seems to be working for them.  Here's a Wikipedia article about the prison system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway

It's shocking to people who want criminals to be punished, but it's working.  They have recidivism and crime rates that are amongst the lowest in the world.  However many people would object to the level of freedom and quality of living they experience in prison.

Just as many people in the US don't want homeless people to get something for nothing even though it's been shown to cost less than just letting them go about their business I'm afraid the same would be true for having conditions for prisoners which have been proven to work elsewhere.  If we saved money from being able to reduce our criminal justice system we'd be able to put that money into other areas.


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## jerry old (Feb 23, 2021)

Blacks are represented far to much in our prisons: What 20%, 30%; if your poor and cannot afford counsel, you going down.
The same can be said for poor whites or any other racial groups without funds.

Our alleged Justice System is to put you in jail,not justice-unless your rich.

Ft Worth, Tx Circa 30 years ago:
A millionaire  attempted to kill his wife, he bullet missed, killing her daughter.
The millionaire hired the foremost criminal lawyer in TX.
The lawyer's bill ran into the *millions*.  He hired nine full time investigators  and several part time investigators to dig up dire on the  his spouse.
Yes, the lady had a checkered past, but she was not on trial.  The defense team threw so much smoke at the jury that they
found the millionaire not guilt.

You saw the same thing in the O. J. Simpson
Justice is for sale in Texas, I would assume that is the same throughout the nation.


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## jerry old (Feb 23, 2021)

Clyde, you won the lotto?'

Yep, 5 million

What'cha gonn'a do with it?

I'm gonn'a get drunk and drive wherever and whenever I please.

You'll get locked up

Yep, and when I do, I'll take my lotto money and buy myself justice.


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## jerry old (Feb 23, 2021)

This  thread is concerned with prisons and criminals.

I thought this may be of interest:
Wyoming ranked worst for drunk driving problems and had more fatalities per 100,000 people than any other state.
North Dakota was the state with the most DUIs, trailed by South Dakota and Wyoming.
The four most dangerous states (Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana and Idaho) for drunk driving share the same geographic region.


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## 911 (Feb 24, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I don't doubt any of this for a moment, 911.  I despair over it, particularly over the ones who can be (and want to be) rehabilitated, but I sure don't doubt what you're saying.  Thank you for taking the time to type it out.  Very scary stuff.


And, this is only the beginning of the story. Some of the things that prisoners come up with are unimaginable. Pennsylvania has finally started to segregate prisoners by offense. Lifers are now held in their own block. The lesser the offense, the lesser the security. White collar criminals are also placed in their own block. This would be like for embezzlement, unlawful taking, etc. 

The bad-asses from the streets are all thrown together. if they went to kill each other, so-be-it. Guards respond, but there's no hurry. Throwing these jerks in the hole does no good. It's an honor badge to them. Doing time in the hole makes them a martyr to their fellow gang member. Besides, going into the hole for a few months isn't so bad. He won't have to work. He gets 1 hour a day in the yard by himself, 2 showers a week, if he behaves and 3 hots and a cot to lay on for a few months. It's like going on R&R to them.


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## ohioboy (Mar 1, 2021)

It would be considered cruel and unusual here in the good ole USA, try Nazi Germany's "Standing cells". Extremely torturious. I wouldn't last 2 days, even in my 20's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_cell


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## JonDouglas (Mar 1, 2021)

There was a time when a thing called "street justice" could have an influence on who ended up in prison and who didn't.  In its purest and best form, street justice went something like this:  "Do something good and we'll help and support you.  Do something bad and we'll hurt you." I have seen it save more than one kid; however, major problems can readily arise in the interpretation of what's good, what's bad and what constitutes hurt.


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## Judycat (Mar 1, 2021)

My youngest son is a new prison guard. He says the lifers are OK because they know they did wrong, the rest can be a pain in the a**, but the administrators cause a lot more problems than the prisoners. Don't tell anyone. Oops.


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## 911 (Mar 1, 2021)

Judycat said:


> My youngest son is a new prison guard. He says the lifers are OK because they know they did wrong, the rest can be a pain in the a**, but the administrators cause a lot more problems than the prisoners. Don't tell anyone. Oops.


I would speak with the guards at the prisons before I retired. Some would tell me of the poor treatment that they received from upper management. Long hours, double shifts, etc. That's not to mention the crap the prisoners would lay on them. 

What prison is he working in?


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## Judycat (Mar 1, 2021)

911 said:


> I would speak with the guards at the prisons before I retired. Some would tell me of the poor treatment that they received from upper management. Long hours, double shifts, etc. That's not to mention the crap the prisoners would lay on them.
> 
> What prison is he working in?


Somerset State Correctional


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## 911 (Mar 1, 2021)

Judycat said:


> Somerset State Correctional


Oh, yeah, Laurel Highlands. I think that's where Jerry Sandusky is living out his life. I saw him right after he was moved there from Bellefonte (Rockview Sate Prison). He was very depressed as he should have been. I think they were going to move him to the protective custody block. 

I remember this because we had about a 2-minute conversation. When he started telling me why he was innocent, I had to walk away.


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## JonDouglas (Mar 2, 2021)

On the subject prisons, get a load of this 1773 prison dormitory - an old copper mine that was used to house prisoners underground. 







I went down in the mine to get the above picture, which was taken with the camera level.  As you can see, the area was slanted down, damp, slippery/slimy and had a low ceiling.  I didn't go far.  This is Old Newgate Prison in CT.


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## hollydolly (Mar 2, 2021)

I've seen the inside of current Russian prisons... I think if more of our prisons were like that, there would be a lot less criminals doing a second term.

A prisoner isn't even permitted to stand up straight in the presence of an officer,,,


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## Shalimar (Mar 2, 2021)

Indeed, many of them are raped by guards, often killed the first day. No one cares.  They have no rights whatsoever, and many are political prisoners. The majority of guards are psychopaths, according to a colleague of mine who was born and raised in Russia.


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## rcleary171 (Mar 2, 2021)

Judycat said:


> My youngest son is a new prison guard. He says the lifers are OK because they know they did wrong, the rest can be a pain in the a**, but the administrators cause a lot more problems than the prisoners. Don't tell anyone. Oops.


That is very interesting. I would have assumed that the lifers would be the problem since they have little to loose. Only someone working on the inside will know what actually is going on.


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## jerry old (May 4, 2021)

5-4-21
Watching 'Frontline,' "95% of the people arrested and charged never have a trial.  There placed on probation"

You believe that 95%, hard to accept


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## Ladybj (May 4, 2021)

justfred said:


> What are your views on prisons. Over here there is very little difference between a prison and a holiday hotel. The only difference being the 'guests' in prison cannot walk out when they feel like it. They have televisions, computers, a gym, games rooms and it does cost them a penny as the tax payer foots the bill
> Should any criminal sent to prison be punished for the crime he or she has committed or as the authorities say 'for rehabilitation'


Not sure where you are located but I know someone that was in prison and it was not a holiday hotel.  They saw someone that hung themself.  I have heard all sorts of horrible events.


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## Nathan (May 4, 2021)

I worked in jails for 26 years(local Sheriff's dept) and worked in state prisons later on.    Inmates are as diverse as any people in society at large.
A lot of folks want draconian conditions to be implemented(dark ages, wizard of ID style).   That's wonderful, satisfies one's cruelty cravings.
But if we ever expect to release these people back into society, you can't take away their sense of humanity.   Obviously there is a percentage of inmates that need to be locked up forever, but for the typical _every-mother's -baby-boy,_ you want them catch a even break so they don't get turned into monsters by the very system society expects to deal with these people.


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## Gary O' (May 4, 2021)

Ladybj said:


> Not sure where you are located but I know someone that was in prison and it was not a holiday hotel. They saw someone that hung themself. I have heard all sorts of horrible events.


There's prisons and there's prisons

County jails are relatively easy (good turn over)
Min security state prisons are a bit the same
Federal, relatively cushy 
State houses? Whoa
They're all over the map

Heh, almost got tossed into the hoosegow in mainland China 
(in the wrong place at the very wrong time)
Not so sure I'd have done well there

Funny, Hong Kong was wonderful
Most everyone spoke or at least knew English 
Shenzhen...doable
North of that? Just the other side of the dividing line, 
best be pickin' up some Mandarin in a hurry 
Guangzhou ain't no place for sight seers

Got hooked up with a couple South African gents
They became a tad rowdy and loud after a few drinks
Not sure where the cops took 'em, but never saw 'em again

Yeah, jails/prisons in other countries don't play patty cake so much
It's more like...prison


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## Gary O' (May 5, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, jails/prisons in other countries don't play patty cake so much
> It's more like...prison


I've got to add something that came to mind;

On my way outa Guangdong province and outa China, I had breakfast with a couple expats.
Man, were they ever hungry for any news from back home.
The one guy had a hugely swollen eye from a spider bite.
No real medical help.
Low end production workers, for nigh to zero wages. 
Poor living conditions.
They were essentially prisoners of China.

Glad to get home
​


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## StarSong (May 5, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> I've got to add something that came to mind;
> 
> On my way outa Guangdong province and outa China, I had breakfast with a couple expats.
> Man, were they ever hungry for any news from back home.
> ...


What year was this, Gary?


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## MarkinPhx (May 5, 2021)

I just went down a rabbit hole this weekend watching this guys videos on YouTube. He is a former jewel thief and has many episodes talking about his time (14 years I think) in a Federal prison. He can be boastful and annoying at times but some might find his tales interesting. Just know that it is not for the faint of heart.


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## charry (May 5, 2021)

There are too many innocent people serving prison sentences.....


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## fuzzybuddy (May 5, 2021)

The idea of prisons and punishment  for crimes are  a human concept. It comes from our sense of retribution.  And that concept changes as we mature as a society.  So I believe a prison should be just as "draconian" as you would want, if you  were to be incarcerated.


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## Nathan (May 5, 2021)

charry said:


> There are too many innocent people serving prison sentences.....


The U.S. overall has about 300,000 inmates in custody, most are for non-violent offenses.  A big percentage of those are drug related offenses. 
It would behoove the various jurisdictions to at least make an attempt at drug rehabilitation, either behind bars or once released so that these people might have a productive life once more,rather than being a continuing burden on society.


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## Sunny (May 5, 2021)

Seems to me that the biggest part of the "punishment" is the lack of freedom. Imagine being trapped for years, maybe permanently, in a place which you may NEVER get out of, never drive a car, never go anywhere outside of the prison. And maybe have little or no contact with your family and friends.  

And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. Many of your daily companions are cruel, sadistic, mentally ill, psychopathic, full of hatred and constantly spewing offensive language. That's what you are condemned to be surrounded by, day by day.

The living conditions inside the prison are almost irrelevant; it would be awful to be locked up anywhere, even a place that doesn't look like a medieval dungeon.


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## FastTrax (May 5, 2021)

I remember the time when a juvenile stood before the judge and the magistrate gave the guy two choices, Army or Jail and 99% of the smart ones chose the Army maybe not to better themselves but to change their course in life as opposed to going to prison. Either way the recidivism rate was pretty low to nonexistent as opposed to those who held absolutely no value in anything or anybody's life except to ply the streets to prey on others who actually made the right choice to pay their taxes, obey the law, love and respect others and do the right thing.

www.city-journal.org/html/my-black-crime-problem-and-ours-11773.html

Sam says it best.


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## StarSong (May 5, 2021)

Nathan said:


> The U.S. overall has about 300,000 inmates in custody, most are for non-violent offenses.  A big percentage of those are drug related offenses.
> It would behoove the various jurisdictions to at least make an attempt at drug rehabilitation, either behind bars or once released so that these people might have a productive life once more,rather than being a continuing burden on society.


From what I'm seeing, between state, local and federal incarcerations, there are over two million people incarcerated in the US right now.
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html


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## JimBob1952 (May 5, 2021)

2 million sounds accurate.  

If I ever ran for President, one of the main planks in my platform would be top to bottom reform of the entire criminal justice system.  Criminal codes, policing, sentencing, prisons, parole, rehabilitation -- everything needs a major overhaul.  

And this is a bipartisan issue.  No one, conservative or liberal, wants (or should want) an 18 year old first time nonviolent offender subjected to our prison system, turned from a kid who made a mistake into a hardened criminal.  But this happens every day, thousands of times over.  

just my two cents....


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## charry (May 5, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Seems to me that the biggest part of the "punishment" is the lack of freedom. Imagine being trapped for years, maybe permanently, in a place which you may NEVER get out of, never drive a car, never go anywhere outside of the prison. And maybe have little or no contact with your family and friends.
> 
> And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. Many of your daily companions are cruel, sadistic, mentally ill, psychopathic, full of hatred and constantly spewing offensive language. That's what you are condemned to be surrounded by, day by day.
> 
> The living conditions inside the prison are almost irrelevant; it would be awful to be locked up anywhere, even a place that doesn't look like a medieval dungeon.


But people shouldnt get that freedom sunny , if they are evil.....
They get looked after very well in my eyes !!


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## Judycat (May 5, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> I've got to add something that came to mind;
> 
> On my way outa Guangdong province and outa China, I had breakfast with a couple expats.
> Man, were they ever hungry for any news from back home.
> ...


My daughter wanted to go with a group to China for a month. She was in her early 20s. I begged her to change her mind, because I had a bad feeling about it. She insisted she was going. Thankfully the first SARS epidemic happened and they cancelled the trip. She ended up going to Russia instead.


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## Gary O' (May 5, 2021)

StarSong said:


> What year was this, Gary?


2000

Y2K was a huge celebration in HK (China took back Hong Kong that year)

Inland....not so much

Where I went, it was factory hell
As far as you could see, factory after factory
Inside those factories were people
Inside the barracks were people....stacked like cord wood


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## 911 (May 5, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Seems to me that the biggest part of the "punishment" is the lack of freedom. Imagine being trapped for years, maybe permanently, in a place which you may NEVER get out of, never drive a car, never go anywhere outside of the prison. And maybe have little or no contact with your family and friends.
> 
> And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. Many of your daily companions are cruel, sadistic, mentally ill, psychopathic, full of hatred and constantly spewing offensive language. That's what you are condemned to be surrounded by, day by day.
> 
> The living conditions inside the prison are almost irrelevant; it would be awful to be locked up anywhere, even a place that doesn't look like a medieval dungeon.


If you want to fantasize about being in prison, think about being 22 y/o and serving a life sentence w/o parole. When a person is convicted of a crime and sent to prison for years, his first duty to help himself will be to join a gang. At least, this is what they believe. Gang members give each other protection. To get into a gang, you don't just join or sign up. There are conditions before you join and after you join, which only makes your situation worse. Problem is, you can't tell convicted felons on their way to prison what they need to do to get their sentence shortened and get an early release. Most don't want to hear it. A few will listen, but the majority of them believe they have it all figured out.


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## Sunny (May 5, 2021)

charry said:


> But people shouldnt get that freedom sunny , if they are evil.....
> They get looked after very well in my eyes !!


I think you misunderstood my post, Charry. I never said that "evil people" should not be incarcerated.

My only point was that prison itself is a punishment, and the loss of freedom is the main part of it. The living conditions in the prison are not the main point.  Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!


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## 911 (May 5, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> 2000
> 
> Y2K was a huge celebration in HK (China took back Hong Kong that year)
> 
> ...


I have been to China, but not to any of their prisons. HK sits on the Kowloon Peninsula. Great for shopping. Just ask my wife. Good place to buy precious stones. Very good prices. When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer. The first attempt scared the crap out of me. The pilot flew between 2 vey tall buildings and had to tilt the plane so that the wings would not hit 1 of the buildings.


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## DaveA (May 5, 2021)

Sunny stated;                                                                                                                                                                " - -  -  And you have to eat when and what someone else decides, exercise and sleep when someone else decides, if you have any recreation, it's what someone else decides. - - - -.."

I though for a moment, you were describing life in the military, at least as  I recall it.


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## Gary O' (May 5, 2021)

911 said:


> When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer.


Not sure if old or new, but the airport was shut down for a bit due to a downpour/deluge of rain the volume I've never seen.
It subsided and we made schedule, but thought I'd be on the street if it got delayed.
HK and Kowloon hotels were full up.


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## Aunt Marg (May 5, 2021)

911 said:


> *I have been to China, but not to any of their prisons.* HK sits on the Kowloon Peninsula. Great for shopping. Just ask my wife. Good place to buy precious stones. Very good prices. When we landed at the old airport, it took the pilot 3 attempts before he was able to sit the plane down and get stopped before running into the South China Sea. I hear the new airport is much better and safer. The first attempt scared the crap out of me. The pilot flew between 2 vey tall buildings and had to tilt the plane so that the wings would not hit 1 of the buildings.


I didn't know foreigners had a choice, I thought that was arbitrarily ruled upon, sort of like, roll the dice and see where you wind-up.


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## jerry old (May 5, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!


In my state there's been a shortage of prison guards for decades.  
Our prisons are built in rural areas, so the 'good' people won't have to view these 'rascals.'
Since there in the rural, the employee pool contains a lot of 'Elmers' and Zekes.


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## asp3 (May 5, 2021)

I highly recommend that anyone interested in learning about more effective prisons and justice systems look into the Norwegian prison system.  It was developed in the 1990's and their incarceration rate is 75 per 100,000 people.  The US incarceration rate was 698 per 100,000 so we're at least 8 times higher.  They also have a recidivism rate around 20% where it used to be 60 to 70% in the 90's.

However I doubt we'll ever do anything similar here in the US on a large scale for a number of reasons.  From what I've seen and read people here tend to want others to be punished for their crimes.  I've also seen that people here are also against giving prisoners they wonderful conditions they have in Norway.  Even if the system does work better and their justice system costs a lot less overall people won't want to pay to make our prisons better to make them better and returning people to being better members of society.

Here's an article to start with https://borgenproject.org/norways-prison-system/


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## Nathan (May 5, 2021)

StarSong said:


> From what I'm seeing, between state, local and federal incarcerations, there are over two million people incarcerated in the US right now.
> https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html


@StarSong ,   Lol, I must have been preoccupied with getting prepared for the days work- I _knew_ that at one time approximately 1% of the U.S. population was incarcerated...I blew off one decimal place.


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## Irwin (May 5, 2021)

asp3 said:


> I highly recommend that anyone interested in learning about more effective prisons and justice systems look into the Norwegian prison system.  It was developed in the 1990's and their incarceration rate is 75 per 100,000 people.  The US incarceration rate was 698 per 100,000 so we're at least 8 times higher.  They also have a recidivism rate around 20% where it used to be 60 to 70% in the 90's.
> 
> However I doubt we'll ever do anything similar here in the US on a large scale for a number of reasons.  From what I've seen and read people here tend to want others to be punished for their crimes.  I've also seen that people here are also against giving prisoners they wonderful conditions they have in Norway.  Even if the system does work better and their justice system costs a lot less overall people won't want to pay to make our prisons better to make them better and returning people to being better members of society.
> 
> Here's an article to start with https://borgenproject.org/norways-prison-system/


You're comparing apples to oranges (as the cliché goes). Norway is highly socialized with a highly homogeneous population (although that's changing). But with a socialized economy, nobody is truly impoverished. I don't think they even have slums there—not like we have here in the U.S., anyway. So kids in Norway don't grow up in an environment where they feel like their only way to succeed is through crime.


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## asp3 (May 5, 2021)

Irwin said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges (as the cliché goes). Norway is highly socialized with a highly homogeneous population (although that's changing). But with a socialized economy, nobody is truly impoverished. I don't think they even have slums there—not like we have here in the U.S., anyway. So kids in Norway don't grow up in an environment where they feel like their only way to succeed is through crime.



You may be right.

They are trying some of the principals of the Norwegian system in North Dakota now.  Although North Dakota also has a more homogenous population than one would have in many other parts of the US it will be interesting to see if the system reduces recidivism of those who go through it.  It would provide a better population to compare against.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ays-approach-north-dakota-reforms-its-prisons


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## Irwin (May 5, 2021)

asp3 said:


> You may be right.
> 
> They are trying some of the principals of the Norwegian system in North Dakota now.  Although North Dakota also has a more homogenous population than one would have in many other parts of the US it will be interesting to see if the system reduces recidivism of those who go through it.  It would provide a better population to compare against.
> 
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ays-approach-north-dakota-reforms-its-prisons


It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.


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## fmdog44 (May 5, 2021)

Watching The First 48  a few days ago a guy is mad at another guy for spitting on his girlfriend. The next day he follows him in his car and when the hunted gets out of his car and walks away the hunter walks behind him and shoots him twice in the back of the head and once in the back. All caught on video. Verdict: Guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Sentence: 10 years!


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## StarSong (May 6, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Watching The First 48  a few days ago a guy is mad at another guy for spitting on his girlfriend. The next day he follows him in his car and when the hunted gets out of his car and walks away the hunter walks behind him and shoots him twice in the back of the head and once in the back. All caught on video. Verdict: Guilty of manslaughter, not murder. Sentence: 10 years!


Where was this, do you know?


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## charry (May 6, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I think you misunderstood my post, Charry. I never said that "evil people" should not be incarcerated.
> 
> My only point was that prison itself is a punishment, and the loss of freedom is the main part of it. The living conditions in the prison are not the main point.  Would you want to be incarcerated in a nice, clean, modern building with kind, understanding guards... but you still can never leave the damn place? I certainly wouldn't!


Yes i would


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## Keesha (May 6, 2021)

Irwin said:


> It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.


I agree completely. I’ve often heard that many homeless people try and get convicted so they have food & a place to stay which is very sad.


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## Sunny (May 6, 2021)

charry said:


> Yes i would


Charry, I assume, from the laughing smilie, that you are not answering seriously. If you were, I would feel very, very sorry for you.


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## garyt1957 (May 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.


Not a chance. At least not anybody under 60.


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## Sunny (May 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> It will be interesting to see what the outcome of that will be, but I wonder if prison is much of a deterrent if life incarcerated is better than living in poverty. If given the choice between being poor and having to work some sh*t job just to be able to pay for a slum apartment, and living in confinement where your movement is limited, but at least you get to eat regularly and don't have to live in squalor, some people might choose the latter.


There is usually a way out of squalor. But escape, and changing one's life, requires freedom.  I think the value of freedom exceeds by far the 
"value" of being given three meals a day while trapped in a cage like an animal, constantly forced to live in close quarters with some very sick and/or evil people. Even if the cage is relatively comfortable.

Instead of prison, let's change the situation a little bit (but not that much.)  If you were a Black person living in America in the antebellum South, and had one of the "better" slave jobs, say as a butler or housemaid, would you prefer that to getting your freedom?


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## charry (May 7, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Charry, I assume, from the laughing smilie, that you are not answering seriously. If you were, I would feel very, very sorry for you.




Your allowed to feel sorry for me Sunny     I ll let you !!


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