# Mother raised six children...now estranged from 5....



## Babycakes (Mar 18, 2020)

I have no ideal how to get out of this situation. I sacrificed my entire life to give them an exceptional upbringing. The absolute best always putting their needs ahead of mine. I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me. The older ones turned the younger ones against me with lies and untruths. As awful as it is I have no ideal what to do.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## StarSong (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome to the forum, Babycakes!  

I'm sorry to read of your struggles. Brokenness with our children is heartbreaking.

Please know that it's very difficult to offer advice without specific information. Here's what I do during difficult moments with my children - or anyone, for that matter, including people on this forum. 

I take a long look at my own responsibility in our upset, apologize, take full ownership for my actions, work out how to not repeat the problem, and we moved forward.

Only when people sincerely understand where they went wrong and apologize for hurting you, can the relationship move forward. 

Thinking of your children as "selfish and ungrateful" and yourself as sacrificial who "always put their needs ahead" of yours will get you nowhere. My guess is that they see their upbringing and your actions differently than you do.

Just as there are no perfect children, there are no perfect parents. I'd recommend a sincere effort toward understanding why they've estranged themselves, apologizing for your missteps, and trying to find a way toward peace and a relationship.


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## RadishRose (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome Babycakes!

I hope things will eventually work out with your family.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 18, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Thinking of your children as "selfish and ungrateful" and yourself as sacrificial who "always put their needs ahead" of yours will get you nowhere. My guess is that they see their upbringing and your actions differently than you do.


Exactly.


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## grahamg (Mar 18, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have no ideal how to get out of this situation. I sacrificed my entire life to give them an exceptional upbringing. The absolute best always putting their needs ahead of mine. I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me. The older ones turned the younger ones against me with lies and untruths. As awful as it is I have no ideal what to do.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.




You have my support for what it is worth, (I'm estranged from my one daughter, so that qualifies me to speak to an extent).

I take a different view from many others here on the whole subject, and the way our western societies try to emphasise at every opportunity that everything done in relations to anyone's child should always be about their interests, rather than the parents interests, or mutual interests between the two. I believe that in itself helps create selfish children. Many countries in the far east do not follow our lead, and the need for those of age to be shown respect persists in their cultures.


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## charry (Mar 18, 2020)

welcome babycakes.....
I know , what your saying and feeling ...take care x


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## Packerjohn (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome.  I'm sorry about your lose but I'm glad that someone is talking about something other than Cornavirus.  I hear you loud & clear.  We raised 3 kiddies but I have been estranged from them ever since my divorce about 17 years ago.  I stopped asking why years ago.  Society & teachers in school have been drumming into young people's minds that everything we do we do for them.  We do not teach responsibility very well in this country.  The issue is very complex.  I have learned to accept things as I really believe that it's no use flogging a dead horse & anyways, life is just too short.


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## Rosemarie (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome babycakes. I'm sorry to hear of the estrangement from your children. However, as a mother myself, I have to say that we make the decision to have children, they do not ask to be born. Therefore they owe us nothing, no matter what sacrifices we make.


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## grahamg (Mar 18, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> Welcome babycakes. I'm sorry to hear of the estrangement from your children. However, as a mother myself, I have to say that we make the decision to have children, they do not ask to be born. Therefore they owe us nothing, no matter what sacrifices we make.



Did you owe your own parents nothing at all?

I'd have thought most people might think good parents are owed a lot of things, and starting with the DNA, moving on to all the care shown to them, be it a sacrifice or a pleasure we'd never wished to have missed.


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## win231 (Mar 18, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Welcome to the forum, Babycakes!
> 
> I'm sorry to read of your struggles. Brokenness with our children is heartbreaking.
> 
> ...


^^^^ Well said.  And better (and nicer) than I could put it.


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## Catlady (Mar 18, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have no ideal how to get out of this situation. I sacrificed my entire life to give them an exceptional upbringing. The absolute best always putting their needs ahead of mine. I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me. The older ones turned the younger ones against me with lies and untruths. As awful as it is I have no ideal what to do.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.


I agree with @StarSong , it's hard to give you advice if you give no details.  Your complaints about your children are very vague, and only one sided.  We only have your side of the story.  In every disagreement there is always one who is more right than the other, but NO ONE is ever blameless.  Like the saying goes,  "It takes two to tango".


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## Catlady (Mar 18, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> Welcome babycakes. I'm sorry to hear of the estrangement from your children. However, as a mother myself, I have to say that we make the decision to have children, they do not ask to be born. *Therefore they owe us nothing, no matter what sacrifices we make*.


I agree with most of what you said.  But, on the other hand, if the children don't owe us anything, neither do the parents owe them anything after they become adults and self -sufficient.  Respect and love have to be earned, forget that ''unconditional'' crap.


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## Pepper (Mar 18, 2020)

The one child you are still close with, what does (s)he say?  I think the best advice and inner knowledge would be from this child.  Good luck.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 18, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I agree with most of what you said.  But, on the other hand, if the children don't owe us anything, neither do the parents owe them anything after they become adults and self -sufficient.  Respect and love have to be earned, forget that ''unconditional'' crap.


I have to disagree.  My children certainly never had to "earn" my love, and as far as loving them it will always be unconditional.


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## Kaila (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome, Baby cakes, and I am very sorry for the heartache and difficulties, that you have.
I hope that you can keep the relationship you have with the one.


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## Judycat (Mar 18, 2020)

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry your children are still giving you fits. It's nice that you care.  I find it satisfying that my sons are dealing with their own families and have no time to themselves anymore. Now they know how it feels. They thought having a free maid, cook, and therapist would last forever. 
I felt a little bad when they saw it was over, but not for long. As far as them speaking foul of you, they should get to work on fixing their own mess.


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## grahamg (Mar 18, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I agree with most of what you said.  But, on the other hand, if the children don't owe us anything, neither do the parents owe them anything after they become adults and self -sufficient.  Respect and love have to be earned, forget that ''unconditional'' crap.




If there is no such thing as "unconditional love", how can any parent or any child for that matter, be in any way special/unique in relation to the people whose existence on this planet brought the the child into it, or cared for them? They can earn that love and respect from anyone can't they by your argument, so you could mix up children in maternity wards willy nilly(?).

Does a newborn baby come with the skills to earn their parents respect(?) - I accept re-reading you're post you are referring to adults, but I have to say "you're a hard woman" given the views you express, (maybe that's a good thing?).

Not sure any of this discussion is helping the OP, but at least they will be hearing enough negative comments to understand this world doesn't necessarily wish them well, whatever they've done besides love their children as they saw fit, or were able to do.


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## Rosemarie (Mar 19, 2020)

I don't see them as negative comments. Most parents dote on their children and want to do their best for them. That is nature's way of ensuring the children's survival. Children should appreciate what has been done for them. I know my own children realise that I went without so that they could have something they needed. The fact that they appreciate it is enough for me. I don't expect anything in return.


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## bearcat (Mar 19, 2020)

Going into any interaction with anyone with any expectations is setting yourself up for bitter disappointment.

Because things so often go smoothly, when someone does frustrate or disappoint us, we get upset.

The only way to ensure you get what you want is to only make in the moment deals.
You give me this now, and I give you that now.

There is no tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes.
Investments are risks, usually stupid ones that don't pay off.
Just quit being invested.
Your kids cheated you of what you think they owe you.
So, you can feel bad, but it was YOUR mistake.


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## grahamg (Mar 19, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I don't see them as negative comments. Most parents dote on their children and want to do their best for them. That is nature's way of ensuring the children's survival. Children should appreciate what has been done for them. I know my own children realise that I went without so that they could have something they needed. The fact that they appreciate it is enough for me. I don't expect anything in return.



I must say I'd think this quote might strike me as a little bit negative: 
"Your kids cheated you of what you think they owe you.
So, you can feel bad, but it was YOUR mistake."

It is fair to say there are all sides, or many sides in this case where there are more than one child involved in any argument or breakdown of a relationship, (what is the role of the ex./partner too?).

However, it is blaming this parent to assume they could have done something differently.

If you get to read Penny Cross's book, "Lost children" you might feel differently, about the way that wonderful woman lost contact with all four of her children following separation/divorce, and all she did to try to deal with her own life, then further on to assist so many others finding themselves in the same position, (see Mothers Apart from Their CHildren or MATCH website for her work to care for other mothers, - not the dating site obviously!).


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## Rosemarie (Mar 19, 2020)

I suppose we are influenced by our experiences with our own mothers. Mine took it for granted that I would look after her in her old age. If she had been a good mother, I would have been happy to do so. However, she was a very unpleasant person and I felt no obligations towards her. 

When I married, my husband and I made a point of moving as far away from her as possible, so that she would have no influence over our children.


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## Catlady (Mar 19, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I agree with most of what you said.  But, on the other hand, if the children don't owe us anything, neither do the parents owe them anything *after they become adults and self -sufficient*.  Respect and love have to be earned, forget that ''unconditional'' crap.





> Does a newborn baby come with the skills to earn their parents respect(?) - I accept re-reading you're post *you are referring to adults*, but I have to say "you're a hard woman" given the views you express, (maybe that's a good thing?).


That is exactly what I was saying.  You do your duty as a parent and give them love and shelter until they're self-sufficient adults, and then if they have no use for you or respect for you, then you don't owe them anything.    Respect goes both ways.  If I'm a *hard woman* for believing in reciprocity, then so be it, I don't want it any other way regardless of others' opinions.

EDIT= This is in response to @grahamg, I have no idea why it didn't quote.


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## Catlady (Mar 19, 2020)

Judycat said:


> Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry your children are still giving you fits. It's nice that you care.  I find it satisfying that my sons are dealing with their own families and have no time to themselves anymore. Now they know how it feels. They thought having a free maid, cook, and therapist would last forever.
> I felt a little bad when they saw it was over, but not for long. *As far as them speaking foul of you, they should get to work on fixing their own mess.*



That's the whole debacle, the OP only points fingers at her children, but does not give specifics or examples as to why her  children feel the way they do.  Even if misguided, they usually tell you how they feel that you failed them.  The OP hasn't even posted again to clarify her position.  I always feel that both sides contributed to the problem, one side always more than the other side.  NO ONE is completely blameless.


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## JustBonee (Mar 19, 2020)

Looks like another one and done poster. ...  maybe she would like to come back here,  and introduce herself  on the board??


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Looks like another one and done poster. ...  maybe she would like to come back here,  and introduce herself  on the board??


I think she was two posters at once, bearcat & babycakes.  bc & bc; both registered at the exact same minute.


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## JustBonee (Mar 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I think she was two posters at once, bearcat & babycakes.  bc & bc; both registered at the exact same minute.



Some people enjoy signing up on the board for  the fun of it  ... to toy with people,   and see what kind of reaction they can get. ... 
There have been several that have done that over time.


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## RadishRose (Mar 19, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Some people enjoy signing up on the board for  the fun of it  ... to toy with people,   and see what kind of reaction they can get. ...
> There have been several that have done that over time.


Yep.


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## grahamg (Mar 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Bonnie wrote:
> Looks like another one and done poster. ... maybe she would like to come back here, and introduce herself on the board??
> 
> Pepper wrote:
> I think she was two posters at once, bearcat & babycakes.  bc & bc; both registered at the exact same minute.



I think you both may be right, and perhaps the story needed more background before taking it at face value.


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## grahamg (Mar 19, 2020)

Catlady said:


> Grahamg wrote
> Does a newborn baby come with the skills to earn their parents respect(?) - I accept re-reading you're post *you are referring to adults*, but I have to say "you're a hard woman" given the views you express, (maybe that's a good thing?).
> 
> Catlady wrote
> ...



Its probably a very good thing to be strong, though "hard" does have some negative connotations obviously, (it was said tongue in cheek though!).

I remain a believer in unconditional love (was that were this discussion started?), but can see its flaws, if you get taken for a mug into the bargain.  .


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## toffee (Mar 19, 2020)

I cant begin to understand this turmoil bc----as we only know what you say on here '
and not their thoughts of the break down in the family; find it heart wrenching what I 
have read so far - you mention lies ?? 

to have your kids turn on you has to be something that they are upset by !
i must be very lucky to have such caring sons - so hope you manage to get it sorted ....


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## Catlady (Mar 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I think you both may be right, and perhaps the story needed more background before taking it at face value.



I don't think that Babycakes and Bearcat are the same person.  They not only did not join at the same minute like Pepper claims (check it out), but Bearcat has posted in 42+ threads, while Babycakes only posted in ONE very vague rant against her children, without giving any example of their complaints or their transgressions.  Five children cannot all turn against a parent without there being at least a grain of truth in their complaints against her.  No parent is ever 100% good or bad and no children are totally good or bad, either.  I never believe people who claim their children are perfect.


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I don't think that Babycakes and Bearcat are the same person.  They not only did not join at the same minute like Pepper claims (check it out), but Bearcat has posted in 42+ threads, while Babycakes only posted in ONE very vague rant against her children, without giving any example of their complaints or their transgressions.  Five children cannot all turn against a parent without there being at least a grain of truth in their complaints against her.  No parent is ever 100% good or bad and no children are totally good or bad, either.  I never believe people who claim their children are perfect.


That is so weird, as I checked it several times to make sure and saw both join last night at 11:18 pm.


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

42 posts in one day?  Is that a record?


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## AnnieA (Mar 19, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Some people enjoy signing up on the board for  the fun of it  ... to toy with people,   and see what kind of reaction they can get. ...
> There have been several that have done that over time.




In that case, I'm so glad @StarSong answered first so wisely!  Maybe someone serious about making amends with family will stumble across that post someday.


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## JustBonee (Mar 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> 42 posts in one day?  Is that a record?



... that  Bearcat account appears to be gone ...


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## Catlady (Mar 19, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> ... that  Bearcat account appears to be gone ...


It says their "profile is not available", perhaps that's their privacy setting?  This is their last post.

https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...tenance-contractors.43640/page-2#post-1288073


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

*I KNOW WHAT I SAW!*
_and I'm sorry to shout_
I checked it several times, several, before I made the original post


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

Catlady said:


> It says *their* "profile is not available", perhaps that's their privacy setting?  This is *their* last post.
> 
> https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...tenance-contractors.43640/page-2#post-1288073


See, Cat, even You are using the plural!


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## Catlady (Mar 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> See, Cat, even You are using the plural!



So what?  I don't know what sex Bearcat is, I never checked their profile before, just looked at their avatar info.  Better than having to write he/she all the time.  Most people use ''they'' when they don't know the sex of the individual.


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)

Catlady said:


> So what?  I don't know what sex Bearcat is, I never checked their profile before, just looked at their avatar info.  Better than having to write he/she all the time.  Most people use ''they'' when they don't know the sex of the individual.


Schtickler.  Using an emoticon didn't help me one bit.


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## Pepper (Mar 19, 2020)




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## C'est Moi (Mar 19, 2020)

Nevermind.


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## DaveA (Mar 20, 2020)

Can't offer much real advice to folks when only one side of a story is available. Same goes for "ex's".  So many people have them and 90% of these "ex's" are fully responsible for the troubles.  It'd be interesting to have a parallel post by the "ex" and in some or many cases our view might change.
Or just skip the advice and admit that we don't have a clue to what really happened, only what we've been told.


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## grahamg (Mar 20, 2020)

DaveA said:


> Can't offer much real advice to folks when only one side of a story is available. Same goes for "ex's".  So many people have them and 90% of these "ex's" are fully responsible for the troubles.  It'd be interesting to have a parallel post by the "ex" and in some or many cases our view might change.
> Or just skip the advice and admit that we don't have a clue to what really happened, only what we've been told.



One thing to be gained from this thread, even if its not a genuine story, not withstanding if it is in any way genuine, and we only have one side of it, is that people's attitudes are drawn out in the process.

Whether people choose to be critical, or its reasonable to be critical with so little information to go on, (some who may have been slightly negative or critical in my view, dont think they were being, so there's some confusion obviously to cloud matters).

We all like "being right" or thinking we might know what best, or reading views we tend to agree with, or others liking our views. Sticking your neck out and going against the crowd isn't often very fruitful, but we've all lived long enough, and face uncertain enough futures, to try to say whatever we think, regardless sometimes.

People used to say to me they'd like to hear my ex.'s views, (as to whether or not she played a role in alienating our child from me), but how likely do you think she might be to admit to such a thing, and in any event it is intrusive for anyone to assume they have any right to pry into such aspects of people's private lives, when there has been no questions of abuse, or anything like that, unless the former couple's both choose to come forward.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 20, 2020)

grahamg said:


> People used to say to me they'd like to hear my ex.'s views, (as to whether or not she played a role in alienating our child from me), but how likely do you think she might be to admit to such a thing, and in any event it is intrusive for anyone to assume they have any right to pry into such aspects of people's private lives, when there has been n questions of abuse, or anything like that, unless the former couple's both choose to come forward.


Now that's what I call a run-on sentence.   

Oh and P.S., if people don't want others to "pry", they shouldn't post their private business on a forum for discussion.


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## grahamg (Mar 20, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Grahamg wrote:
> "People used to say to me they'd like to hear my ex.'s views, (as to whether or not she played a role in alienating our child from me), but how likely do you think she might be to admit to such a thing, and in any event it is intrusive for anyone to assume they have any right to pry into such aspects of people's private lives, when there has been no questions of abuse, or anything like that, unless the former couple's both choose to come forward."
> 
> C'est Moi wrote
> ...



You had me scratching my head as to what a "run-on sentence" might be for a moment, (my excuse is I've been dealing with lawyers quite alot recently, and they can tend to do the same sometimes, with caveat after caveat included).

You may have misunderstood me a little though, in my convoluted sentence, because if someone comes forward to post something then no one is prying by reading and responding, unless questioning gets out of hand thereafter, but my warning about the tendency to pry into other peoples lives, I dont believe a stranger has a right to ask any of us who we might love for example.


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## Catlady (Mar 20, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You had me scratching my head as to what a "run-on sentence" might be for a moment, (my excuse is I've been dealing with lawyers quite alot recently, and they can tend to do the same sometimes, with caveat after caveat included).
> 
> You may have misunderstood me a little though, in my convoluted sentence, because if someone comes forward to post something then no one is prying by reading and responding, unless questioning gets out of hand thereafter, but my warning about the tendency to pry into other peoples lives, I dont believe a stranger has a right to ask any of us who we might love for example.



The crux of this is that the OP (who has either run away or has no idea how to get back in, has gone MIA) railed against her children but gave us no background or examples about why they have become estranged.  She wants suggestions for how she can remedy the situation.  How can you give such an individual advice when you have no idea what went wrong in the first place? 

Anyway, this is an exercise in futility, the OP is gone.


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## grahamg (Mar 20, 2020)

Catlady said:


> The crux of this is that the OP (who has either run away or has no idea how to get back in, has gone MIA) railed against her children but gave us no background or examples about why they have become estranged.  She wants suggestions for how she can remedy the situation.  How can you give such an individual advice when you have no idea what went wrong in the first place?
> 
> Anyway, this is an exercise in futility, the OP is gone.



You may describe this thread as an exercise in futility, and you may be correct, if by that you mean any advice offered wont be heeded, rather than anyone possibly learning something from the attitudes on display etc., or the general discussion, and any published information and links, such as these:

Quote: "Penny Cross. As the head of Match (Mothers Apart from their Children) she knows only too well that parental alienation is not a gender issue. She estimates that about 90% of the 1,500 Match members are living apart from their children due to alienation.

As a member of the Equal Parenting Coalition, Cross has met many men in the same position. She thinks the only way forward is for men and women to work together "to take power away from the hands of those who are chronically enraged".

Like many involved in that campaign, she thinks the emphasis should be on children and what is best for them. "Parent education is absolutely vital. You need to learn how to undo your marriage with the least possible harm to your children."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/01/law.theguardian

https://www.matchmothers.org/forum/user/1444-lucybrown?start=210

Or another website, this one in the USA set up by a father having difficulties over his one son twenty years ago:

https://www.akidsright.org/why-risk-arrest-for-family-rights/


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Welcome to the forum, Babycakes!
> 
> I'm sorry to read of your struggles. Brokenness with our children is heartbreaking.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to reply...I realize what your saying and in most cases I would agree. I accept I’m not perfect..but refuse to accept responsibility for things I did not do. The older children have lied and repeat untruths to the younger ones...I don’t feel the need to deny lies. I’ve done my best and it is what it is.


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I think she was two posters at once, bearcat & babycakes.  bc & bc; both registered at the exact same minute.


Wrong


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I agree with @StarSong , it's hard to give you advice if you give no details.  Your complaints about your children are very vague, and only one sided.  We only have your side of the story.  In every disagreement there is always one who is more right than the other, but NO ONE is ever blameless.  Like the saying goes,  "It takes two to tango".


True


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## grahamg (Mar 22, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Wrong



Well said young lady.

I'd begun to think there was something suspicious because you hadn't returned to give your comments on others views etc., but feel under no pressure from me to explain your own situation more than you have, if you're not inclined to.


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Welcome to the forum, Babycakes!
> 
> I'm sorry to read of your struggles. Brokenness with our children is heartbreaking.
> 
> ...


I think not...but thanks for your reply..


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Well said young lady.
> 
> I'd begun to think there was something suspicious because you hadn't returned to give your comments on others views etc., but feel under no pressure from me to explain your own situation more than you have, if you're not inclined to.


No worries


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## Babycakes (Mar 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> That is so weird, as I checked it several times to make sure and saw both join last night at 11:18 pm.


I have no ideal who bearcat is....


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## StarSong (Mar 22, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I think not...but thanks for your reply..


Your response of," I think not" may go a long way toward explaining your current predicament.


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## Em in Ohio (Mar 22, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> Welcome babycakes. I'm sorry to hear of the estrangement from your children. However, as a mother myself, I have to say that we make the decision to have children, they do not ask to be born. Therefore they owe us nothing, no matter what sacrifices we make.


Sorry, but being in this same position, this reply really hit me hard.  "They didn't ask to be born" is something I expect to hear from a teenager, not a mature adult.


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## Pepper (Mar 22, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Wrong


Good.  Why did you remove the part about one child still being in contact with you?


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## StarSong (Mar 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Good.  Why did you remove the part about one child still being in contact with you?


It's in the subject title.


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## Rosemarie (Mar 22, 2020)

Empty said:


> Sorry, but being in this same position, this reply really hit me hard.  "They didn't ask to be born" is something I expect to hear from a teenager, not a mature adult.


It's a fact..why do you have a problem with it?


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## Catlady (Mar 22, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply...I realize what your saying and in most cases I would agree. I accept I’m not perfect..but refuse to accept responsibility for things I did not do. The older children have lied and repeat untruths to the younger ones...*I don’t feel the need to deny lies*. I’ve done my best and it is what it is.


You can't expect to get advice on "I have no ideal how to get out of this situation " if you don't give us examples of what they're accusing you of.  If you don't deny lies and refuse to defend yourself, how do you expect to remedy the situation?


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## Rosemarie (Mar 22, 2020)

This thread is getting rather complicated. I suspect that 'Babycakes' was feeling put out about something which was said and came on here more or less to have a rant. I don't think she was really looking for advice or sympathy, she just wanted to let off steam.

It might have been better if she had written it in her personal blog.


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## Catlady (Mar 22, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> This thread is getting rather complicated. I suspect that 'Babycakes' was feeling put out about something which was said and came on here more or less to have a rant. I don't think she was really looking for advice or sympathy, she just wanted to let off steam.
> 
> It might have been better if she had written it in her personal blog.


It wasn't a ''rant'', she was asking for help, and still refuses to give details for us to offer a solution.  She said in her original post =

*I have no ideal how to get out of this situation. 

Any suggestions would be appreciated. *


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## grahamg (Mar 22, 2020)

Catlady said:


> You can't expect to get advice on "I have no ideal how to get out of this situation " if you don't give us examples of what they're accusing you of.  If you don't deny lies and refuse to defend yourself, how do you expect to remedy the situation?



I have to agree, even though we've got to remember all the caveats I keep mentioning, (like anyone's private life should remain private, if any person wishes to largely keep it that way).

We can speculate though, whilst acknowledging we dont know what's going on, but just for sake of argument.

"Playing devils advocate", (and believe me I hate anyone playing devils advocate generally), lets assume the OP did do so much to "rock the boat" within the family, and the result was an almost inevitable breakdown of relationships (- all pure speculation obviously). Then there will be no easy answers for them will there(?).

On the other hand, I've got a very good mate whose alcoholism, and at times domineering personality has put great pressure on his relationships with his four children, (he's long since divorced from his ex.). One daughter will probably never have anything to do with him again, but the other three have been very sympathetic towards him, and put up with his extremely poor/controlling behaviour to an extent, seeing the good in him besides the bad, whilst at the same time protecting themselves too. In the circumstances I've described, those children are showing strength of character by taking a broader view aren't they, and should be applauded.

I've come to the conclusion my mate cant change, and his behaviour and attitudes are such that he doesn't want to, much to his own detriment and his families, (though they'll be okay, he just cant enjoy them as he otherwise would be able to do).


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## Catlady (Mar 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I have to agree, even though we've got to remember all the caveats I keep mentioning, (like *anyone's private life should remain private, if any person wishes to largely keep it that way*).



If you want your private life to be private you don't go to a public forum to ask for advice without giving details, you go to a therapist.


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## grahamg (Mar 22, 2020)

Catlady said:


> If you want your private life to be private you don't go to a public forum to ask for advice without giving details, you go to a therapist.



Or you could just give away as much or as little as you wish to give away. There are many ways of cutting this, and as would appear obvious now, the OP is likely to reveal the meagrest details.


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## Catlady (Mar 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Or you could just* give away as much or as little as you wish to give away*. There are many ways of cutting this, and as would appear obvious now, the OP is likely to reveal the meagrest details.



Well, on the other hand, the less details you offer the more likely the advice will be worthless since the advisors did not have all the details to make a logical evaluation of the problem(s).  From her reply to @StarSong (post #53) it seems the OP only wants us to agree with her that her children are horrible.


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## win231 (Mar 22, 2020)

Most parents who have such complaints about their children are in serious denial.
I've lived it with my own mother & also witnessed it with my sister & her kids who want nothing to do with her.  Both create their own reality to appear as victims.


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## grahamg (Mar 22, 2020)

Catlady said:


> Well, on the other hand, the less details you offer the more likely the advice will be worthless since the advisors did not have all the details to make a logical evaluation of the problem(s).  From her reply to @StarSong (post #53) it seems the OP only wants us to agree with her that her children are horrible.



I didn't read the OP as claiming her children "are horrible" (using a rather childish word IMHO), but that their behaviour was appalling, which is very different in my view. You can love your child while believing they've acted appallingly for whatever reason, and I'd say that is one of the problems when revealing too much on a forum such as this one, people's words get misconstrued.


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## Em in Ohio (Mar 22, 2020)

Catlady said:


> You can't expect to get advice on "I have no ideal how to get out of this situation " if you don't give us examples of what they're accusing you of.  If you don't deny lies and refuse to defend yourself, how do you expect to remedy the situation?


OOPS - sorry - hit wrong message.  Eyes are tired.


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## Em in Ohio (Mar 22, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> It's a fact..why do you have a problem with it?


You are right.  It is a fact - They didn't ask to be born.  I just didn't find it relevant to the situation.


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## Babycakes (Mar 23, 2020)

Catlady said:


> You can't expect to get advice on "I have no ideal how to get out of this situation " if you don't give us examples of what they're accusing you of.  If you don't deny lies and refuse to defend yourself, how do you expect to remedy the situation?


I am 62 and my oldest is 40 (girl) and youngest is 26 (boy).  So in all fairness it is a lot of water under the bridge. I can’t speak for any of them and I can assure you they feel confident in their convictions of my wrong doing. I have heard many things they have said but all 3rd party so let me address what I know for a fact. My oldest is very bitter because she never got to know her father. I got pregnant with her when I was in college and he and I were not in a relationship at all. He was the star athlete at a very prestigious college. He had no interest in me or her and in fact had another girlfriend at the time. I was stubborn and would not listen to anyone and insisted on having her. I was even told by the doctors to abort the pregnancy due to medication I was on Dilantin for a seizure disorder I have had since birth. The medication caused birth defects 70% chance. I did not listen and continued the pregnancy and yes she was born with a birth defect. She had surgery to correct the defect but not 100% so she has to live with it. This is true and I may have made the wring decision but it is what it is. This is one of the many issues.


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## Babycakes (Mar 23, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Good.  Why did you remove the part about one child still being in contact with you?


I did not remove anything.


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## win231 (Mar 23, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I am 62 and my oldest is 40 (girl) and youngest is 26 (boy).  So in all fairness it is a lot of water under the bridge. I can’t speak for any of them and I can assure you they feel confident in their convictions of my wrong doing. I have heard many things they have said but all 3rd party so let me address what I know for a fact. My oldest is very bitter because she never got to know her father. I got pregnant with her when I was in college and he and I were not in a relationship at all. He was the star athlete at a very prestigious college. He had no interest in me or her and in fact had another girlfriend at the time. I was stubborn and would not listen to anyone and insisted on having her. I was even told by the doctors to abort the pregnancy due to medication I was on Dilantin for a seizure disorder I have had since birth. The medication caused birth defects 70% chance. I did not listen and continued the pregnancy and yes she was born with a birth defect. She had surgery to correct the defect but not 100% so she has to live with it. This is true and I may have made the wring decision but it is what it is. This is one of the many issues.


Well, some bad decisions are harder to forgive than others; especially when they result in lifelong problems when life is already hard enough under ideal circumstances.  And, (as you said), that is one of the many issues.


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## Pepper (Mar 23, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I did not remove anything.


I realize that now.  Sorry, my mistake.


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## Catlady (Mar 23, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I am 62 and my oldest is 40 (girl) and youngest is 26 (boy).  So in all fairness it is a lot of water under the bridge. I can’t speak for any of them and I can assure you they feel confident in their convictions of my wrong doing. I have heard many things they have said but all 3rd party so let me address what I know for a fact. My oldest is very bitter because she never got to know her father. I got pregnant with her when I was in college and he and I were not in a relationship at all. He was the star athlete at a very prestigious college. He had no interest in me or her and in fact had another girlfriend at the time. I was stubborn and would not listen to anyone and insisted on having her. I was even told by the doctors to abort the pregnancy due to medication I was on Dilantin for a seizure disorder I have had since birth. The medication caused birth defects 70% chance. I did not listen and continued the pregnancy and yes she was born with a birth defect. She had surgery to correct the defect but not 100% so she has to live with it. This is true and I may have made the wring decision but it is what it is. This is one of the many issues.



Thanks for your reply.  I hope you understand how we the posters were frustrated to help you with no details available about your circumstances.

Re your daughter, I can understand her anger, but you didn't say what her birth defect is.  Did not the Dilantin cause defects in the other five children?  What did she lie to the others about?


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## grahamg (Mar 24, 2020)

Catlady said:


> Thanks for your reply.  I hope you understand how we the posters were frustrated to help you with no details available about your circumstances.
> 
> Re your daughter, I can understand her anger, but you didn't say what her birth defect is.  Did not the Dilantin cause defects in the other five children?  What did she lie to the others about?



I'm scratching my head about this thread, though I'll accept it is basically as we're being told in the OPs few posts.

All I can say that might be of some kind of assistance, is purely general comments about the need to try to portray a view towards your kids in line with the "Transactional analysis" theory, or methodology (created by an American psychologist called Eric Berne half a century ago). You may have heard of this statement or phrase, "I'm okay, you're okay".

I apologise if you are familiar with these techniques, (as used by the police, medical profession etc.), to try to diffuse difficult relationships, and improve communication. Here is a link for those not familiar:  https://affinitycentre.co.uk/transactional-analysis-theory-explained/

I lost contact with my daughter, but only after ten years of what I believe was very positive contact for both of us, (albeit she described it as "ruining the first twelve years of her life" - odd though she's forgotten telling her dad "Keep coming daddy", shortly after she'd said "I hate you, you're horrible!"). I did however try my best to create an atmosphere around my child where she was in no doubt how highly I thought of her, and to try my best to ignore her occasionally spoilt behaviour, and not allow my contact with her to focus too much on anything negative, such as her trying to defy me over going to church, telling one of my girlfriend "she wouldn't last long", (- she didn't!  ) etc.

Does this help anyone, maybe not the OP with the wide range of very difficult issues outlined already, but who knows.


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## Pepper (Mar 24, 2020)

No matter what the subject is, you keep on coming back to your own story, the same story.  In other words, YOU.  As for your daughter meeting your girlfriend*S -- *maybe she shouldn't have.


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## grahamg (Mar 24, 2020)

Pepper said:


> No matter what the subject is, you keep on coming back to your own story, the same story.  In other words, YOU.  As for your daughter meeting your girlfriend*S -- *maybe she shouldn't have.




You have a problem with someone thing that sharing their life experiences, but no difficulty handing out criticisms. Surely the OP and any others who might appreciate or find a grain of wisdom in anything I've got to say can decide for themselves can't they?

I admire "Transactional analysis" techniques, and cant/wont stop mentioning where I tried to use it.  .


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## Catlady (Mar 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I lost contact with my daughter, but only after ten years of what I believe was very positive contact for both of us, (albeit *she described it as "ruining the first twelve years of her life"* - odd though she's forgotten telling her dad "Keep coming daddy", shortly* after she'd said "I hate you, you're horrible*!").



I don't know why you quoted my post, are you talking to me or the OP?

You're just like the OP, short on details.   You confide that your daughter told you the above in bold, yet you don't say WHY she said all that.  YOU also make it sound like the problem is all your daughter's fault, none of your fault.  If she thinks you're ''horrible'', there must be a reason even if she's exaggerating that reason.   Like the adage says,  "Where there's smoke, there is fire".   All we know is YOUR side of your story.


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## grahamg (Mar 24, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I don't know why you quoted my post, are you talking to me or the OP?
> 
> You're just like the OP, short on details.   You confide that your daughter told you the above in bold, yet you don't say WHY she said all that.  YOU also make it sound like the problem is all your daughter's fault, none of your fault.  If she thinks you're ''horrible'', there must be a reason even if she's exaggerating that reason.   Like the adage says,  "Where there's smoke, there is fire".   All we know is YOUR side of your story.



As I've explained already in another post, I only mentioned my case to show to the OP there are others in the same position (maybe that helps them, and they'll maybe say whether it does?).

Therefore please ignore my post, and I only quoted yours because like you, I dont feel as though I understand the OP very well, (nothing more!   ).


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Catlady said:


> Thanks for your reply.  I hope you understand how we the posters were frustrated to help you with no details available about your circumstances.
> 
> Re your daughter, I can understand her anger, but you didn't say what her birth defect is.  Did not the Dilantin cause defects in the other five children?  What did she lie to the others about?


Answer to your questions:

1. Her birth defect was called an imperfered anus...she had no opening for a bowel movement. She had her bowels from her Virginia. When she reach 30 lbs they were able to operate and create an opening for her bowels. They called it a fistula transfer. So she did not have the spinkta mussel like we do. 
2. I quit taking the Dilantin right then and never took it or any medication again. This also made me nervous to ever drink or smoke. I have continued to have seizures to this day. The other five are totally healthy. A great trade off I would say.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Answer to your questions:
> 
> 1. Her birth defect was called an imperfered anus...she had no opening for a bowel movement. She had her bowels from her Virginia. When she reach 30 lbs they were able to operate and create an opening for her bowels. They called it a fistula transfer. So she did not have the spinkta mussel like we do.
> 2. I quit taking the Dilantin right then and never took it or any medication again. This also made me nervous to ever drink or smoke. I have continued to have seizures to this day. The other five are totally healthy. A great trade off I would say.


3. She has told many lies through the years. To name a few. I abused drugs. I did not know who the fathers of my kids were. I have been married 3 times. My 3rd and current husband had never met her but I talked of her to him. He and I do not have any natural children together but he raised the four younger. We were married 10 years and he and two of the kids ran into her at the mall. I was not there. She was working in the store they entered her sister was so happy to see her. He said she was nice and pleasant. I told him Not... I found out my daughter has exchanged numbers with her and within one week she had the police at my house with CPS claiming my husband and children life was in danger. I had not seen or spoken to her in over 11 years at that time. Of course nothing came of it...because it was unfounded with the exception of my daughter being unhappy because I would not allow her boyfriend to spen the night.


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## Catlady (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Answer to your questions:
> 
> 1. Her birth defect was called an imperfered anus...she had no opening for a bowel movement. She had her bowels from her Virginia. When she reach 30 lbs they were able to operate and create an opening for her bowels. They called it a fistula transfer. So she did not have the spinkta mussel like we do.
> 2. I quit taking the Dilantin right then and never took it or any medication again. This also made me nervous to ever drink or smoke. I have continued to have seizures to this day. The other five are totally healthy. A great trade off I would say.



I'm sorry, for you and for your daughter.   On the other hand, fetuses are born with disabilities and birth defects through no fault of the parents.  The body is a highly complex organism, anything can go wrong during the gestation.   Your only mistake was not aborting, but I know and have heard of plenty of mothers that refuse abortion even when they know for sure that the child will be defective.   The child is the one that ultimately suffers the consequences.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I'm sorry, for you and for your daughter.   On the other hand, fetuses are born with disabilities and birth defects through no fault of the parents.  The body is a highly complex organism, anything can go wrong during the gestation.   Your only mistake was not aborting, but I know and have heard of plenty of mothers that refuse abortion even when they know for sure that the child will be defective.   The child is the one that ultimately suffers the consequences.


I agree...


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## Catlady (Mar 25, 2020)

According to this article, the cause for the defect is unknown, may have had nothing to do with the Dilantin drug.  It happens in one out of 5000 births.

https://www.healthline.com/health/imperforate-anus


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## grahamg (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Answer to your questions:
> 
> 1. Her birth defect was called an imperfered anus...she had no opening for a bowel movement. She had her bowels from her Virginia. When she reach 30 lbs they were able to operate and create an opening for her bowels. They called it a fistula transfer. So she did not have the spinkta mussel like we do.
> 2. I quit taking the Dilantin right then and never took it or any medication again. This also made me nervous to ever drink or smoke. I have continued to have seizures to this day. The other five are totally healthy. A great trade off I would say.



Dear Babycakes,
you definitely shouldn't blame yourself over the birth defect. One of my sisters had the same condition diagnosed in my nephew, and she too blamed herself until her mother in law told her one of the relations on her side of the family had the condition too.

I hope this inspirational message helps you.


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

I knew a child with this birth defect.  At birth, his anal opening was near the center of his back.  It had to be closed and he was operated on and given one in the proper place, all in the first few months of his life.  He had great parents and large loving family who proclaimed upon him the nickname "Million Dollar Asshole."  He is a fine man now with a family of his own.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Catlady said:


> According to this article, the cause for the defect is unknown, may have had nothing to do with the Dilantin drug.  It happens in one out of 5000 births.
> 
> https://www.healthline.com/health/imperforate-anus


You are so sweet to take the time to find the article. It has shed light after all these years. God bless you....


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Dear Babycakes,
> you definitely shouldn't blame yourself over the birth defect. One of my sisters had the same condition diagnosed in my nephew, and she too blamed herself until her mother in law told her one of the relations on her side of the family had the condition too.
> 
> I hope this inspirational message helps you.


Thanks for sharing...Bless you....


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I knew a child with this birth defect.  At birth, his anal opening was near the center of his back.  It had to be closed and he was operated on and given one in the proper place, all in the first few months of his life.  He had great parents and large loving family who proclaimed upon him the nickname "Million Dollar Asshole."  He is a fine man now with a family of his own.


So funny...


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> So funny...


He has fun parents and grew up HAPPY, not whiny, not Oh, Poor Me!  Today, he is a great human being, just like he was a great kid.  Being funny is a good thing.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Pepper said:


> He has fun parents and grew up HAPPY, not whiny, not Oh, Poor Me!  Today, he is a great human being, just like he was a great kid.  Being funny is a good thing.


So refreshing......


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> So refreshing......


Yes, you should try it sometime.  Your sarcasm is weak and transparent.


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

So, the one kid you didn't turn off:  What does (s)he have to say about the siblings that can help you all be a family again?


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## Catlady (Mar 25, 2020)

Pepper said:


> So, the one kid you didn't turn off:  What does (s)he have to say about the siblings that can help you all be a family again?



I also wonder about that.  Why did he/she stay in your corner?  You said it is the youngest of your children.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I also wonder about that.  Why did he/she stay in your corner?  You said it is the youngest of your children.


He is not the youngest...he is the 2nd oldest...he said growing up she made his life a living Hell. He felt like she wanted to be an only child. She was always looking for something to get him in trouble. He said I always believed her. For some reason he said in spite of it all..he had the best mother and his friends always envied him...


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Catlady said:


> I also wonder about that.  Why did he/she stay in your corner?  You said it is the youngest of your children.


He said the oldest is just plain evil. I would take them out to dinner every Friday to some restaurant. The Red Lobster was my favorite. Her story is I would take them out to dinner and never pay the bill. Can you imagine going to the same restaurant every Friday me and six children ant skipping out on the bill..She is a miserable person.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Yes, you should try it sometime.  Your sarcasm is weak and transparent.


What sarcasm...I was truly refreshed...what is weak about telling you how it made me feel. I am disappointed that you were offended by my truth.


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> What sarcasm...I was truly refreshed...what is weak about telling you how it made me feel. I am disappointed that you were offended by my truth.


Gee, I'm so used to being criticized (not here) that I assumed that....*I am relieved that I was wrong*.  Let's start all over again:  Hi Babycakes, I'm Pepper.  Let's get to know and help each other through this thing called LIFE.


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## Babycakes (Mar 25, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Gee, I'm so used to being criticized (not here) that I assumed that....*I am relieved that I was wrong*.  Let's start all over again:  Hi Babycakes, I'm Pepper.  Let's get to know and help each other through this thing called LIFE.


No worries.... I would never want to hurt or offend someone that has taken the time to respond to my post ...good or bad....I can deal with anything that is sincere...you feel me...nice to meet you Pepper.


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## Pepper (Mar 25, 2020)

Same here @Babycakes


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## grahamg (Mar 26, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> 3. She has told many lies through the years. To name a few. I abused drugs. I did not know who the fathers of my kids were. I have been married 3 times. My 3rd and current husband had never met her but I talked of her to him. He and I do not have any natural children together but he raised the four younger. We were married 10 years and he and two of the kids ran into her at the mall. I was not there. She was working in the store they entered her sister was so happy to see her. He said she was nice and pleasant. I told him Not... I found out my daughter has exchanged numbers with her and within one week she had the police at my house with CPS claiming my husband and children life was in danger. I had not seen or spoken to her in over 11 years at that time. Of course nothing came of it...because it was unfounded with the exception of my daughter being unhappy because I would not allow her boyfriend to spen the night.



May I ask whether your children are "doing well in life generally"?

No need to answer, but I know a good many are not having the kind of life a parent might wish for them.


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## Babycakes (Mar 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> May I ask whether your children are "doing well in life generally"?
> 
> No need to answer, but I know a good many are not having the kind of life a parent might wish for them.


Financially they are all doing well. Mentally and morally not so much.


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## Babycakes (Mar 26, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Same here @Babycakes


Good morning..my new friend.


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## Pepper (Mar 26, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Good morning..my new friend.


Here, in NE America, I must reply Good evening (or real late afternoon)


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## grahamg (Mar 26, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Financially they are all doing well. Mentally and morally not so much.



That is good news really, as to my mind it means someone did something right!


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## Babycakes (Mar 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> That is good news really, as to my mind it means someone did something right!


I must agree...three have college degrees and the other 3 followed in my foot steps of high commissions sales. The ladder 3 are exceeding expectations and way ahead of the curve. They do help the older 3 with loans and lavish gifts.


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## win231 (Mar 26, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> No worries.... I would never want to hurt or offend someone that has taken the time to respond to my post ...good or bad....I can deal with anything that is sincere...you feel me...nice to meet you Pepper.


You can feel each other all you want....

as long as you're 6 feet apart.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Babycakes,I'm really sorry you are going through all this hurt. It brings back memories of my older brother who is no longer with us. We had the best parents in the world and they were very good to their 3 children and then 9 grandchildren.If any of us needed something my parents got it for us. I can't even count all the good things they did for us. Then out of the blue my brother turned on the whole family. He moved to another state and never invited my parents to visit. When I called to tell him my Dad was sick,he didn't believe me. Then a few days later my Dad passed away.The same thing happened with my Mom.  I really don't think anything was your fault. I think the problem is with your children.Please stay strong.


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## grahamg (Mar 29, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> Babycakes,I'm really sorry you are going through all this hurt. It brings back memories of my older brother who is no longer with us. We had the best parents in the world and they were very good to their 3 children and then 9 grandchildren.If any of us needed something my parents got it for us. I can't even count all the good things they did for us. Then out of the blue my brother turned on the whole family. He moved to another state and never invited my parents to visit. When I called to tell him my Dad was sick,he didn't believe me. Then a few days later my Dad passed away.The same thing happened with my Mom.  I really don't think anything was your fault. I think the problem is with your children.Please stay strong.



Its an amazing achievement for anyone to raise six children isn't it, just to start with that aspect, considering all the work involved, (plenty would have baulked at all the effort required).

My mum raised seven children, and maybe wasn't recognised or appreciated for all she did by any of us, certainly not me until after her death, when it became clear to me just how hard she had to struggle to cope with competing siblings trying to pull her this way and that, against her will, (though she stubbornly refused to bend). I didn't find it easy to communicate with my mum, and that is a shame whoever was responsible, but as she kept saying: "I did my best", just as I criticised her and didn't understand. However I would never have rejected my mum under any circumstances.


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## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> Babycakes,I'm really sorry you are going through all this hurt. It brings back memories of my older brother who is no longer with us. We had the best parents in the world and they were very good to their 3 children and then 9 grandchildren.If any of us needed something my parents got it for us. I can't even count all the good things they did for us. Then out of the blue my brother turned on the whole family. He moved to another state and never invited my parents to visit. When I called to tell him my Dad was sick,he didn't believe me. Then a few days later my Dad passed away.The same thing happened with my Mom.  I really don't think anything was your fault. I think the problem is with your children.Please stay strong.


Thanks for sharing. Did your brother pass away too? How long ago was this? Your brother must have some sort of mental illness. It is sad how people can be so miserable they hurt the ones who really care. I bet your parents would have done anything for him. Did he attend their funeral?


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## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Here, in NE America, I must reply Good evening (or real late afternoon)


Happy Sunday..my friend.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Thanks for sharing. Did your brother pass away too? How long ago was this? Your brother must have some sort of mental illness. It is sad how people can be so miserable they hurt the ones who really care. I bet your parents would have done anything for him. Did he attend their funeral?




*Yes my brother passed away 2 yrs ago. He did attend their funerals and even said cruel things about my Mother at her funeral. He also didn't even call my Sister when her husband passed away. But what I think is one of the worse things he ever did was leave his daughter everything and not a thing to his 2 son's even though they were very good to him and he was a very wealthy man.*


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## win231 (Mar 29, 2020)

Every story has two sides - sometimes more than two.
My mother died 7 years ago.  None of her 4 kids said anything bad at her funeral....because we didn't attend.
She was an abusive raging witch who should have never had kids & we saw no reason to waste our time.  Luckily, she made her own funeral arrangements years before; perhaps she knew her kids (victims) wouldn't bother to do it.  If she hadn't made her own arrangements, we'd have told the mortuary; "Do whatever you want with her."

My point?  If you asked her what her kids were like, she would reply:  "I have terrible kids; they don't love me; they do nothing for me; they're just bad kids."  And, if she ever came back, she would say, "My kids are so terrible, they didn't even attend my funeral."


----------



## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *Yes my brother passed away 2 yrs ago. He did attend their funerals and even said cruel things about my Mother at her funeral. He also didn't even call my Sister when her husband passed away. But what I think is one of the worse things he ever did was leave his daughter everything and not a thing to his 2 son's even though they were very good to him and he was a very wealthy man.*


Wow...I could tell you a thing or two about my children especially my oldest. I wish they had waited until I died but not so lucky for me. How old was your brother when he passed and what did he die from. I guess he was not Married if his daughter got everything. If his daughter was decent she would still share with her brothers. My main question is what did he die from and if he suffered?


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## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

win231 said:


> Every story has two sides - sometimes more than two.
> My mother died 7 years ago.  None of her 4 kids said anything bad at her funeral....because we didn't attend.
> She was an abusive raging witch who should have never had kids & we saw no reason to waste our time.  Luckily, she made her own funeral arrangements years before; perhaps she knew her kids (victims) wouldn't bother to do it.  If she hadn't made her own arrangements, we'd have told the mortuary; "Do whatever you want with her."
> 
> My point?  If you asked her what her kids were like, she would reply:  "I have terrible kids; they don't love me; they do nothing for me; they're just bad kids."  And, if she ever came back, she would say, "My kids are so terrible, they didn't even attend my funeral."


There is no excuse for the four of you abandoning her. It is clear she has some kind of mental illness. I would not expect you to let her abuse you...true enough but for heavens sake give her credit for giving you life...if nothing else. God forgave us for our sins and the 4 of you are not greater than God. Lord have mercy on you four because your day will come just like the rest of us.


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## win231 (Mar 29, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> There is no excuse for the four of you abandoning her. It is clear she has some kind of mental illness. I would not expect you to let her abuse you...true enough but for heavens sake give her credit for giving you life...if nothing else. God forgave us for our sins and the 4 of you are not greater than God. Lord have mercy on you four because your day will come just like the rest of us.


Not every bad trait in someone can be blamed on mental illness; otherwise, every inmate in prison should be treated, instead of punished/incarcerated.
Her selfishness & abuse was not due to any mental illness.  She was just full of rage that she chose to take out on her kids.  We only "abandoned" her after she died.  I made sure she was cared for - mainly because I promised our dad we would because that was his dying wish. He knew what kind of psycho he married & he was afraid we would abandon her after he passed.
I hired & paid her nurses $1,200.00/week for the last 3 months when she was bedridden.  Before that, I chauffeured her & my dad for 2 years & did all their shopping, etc.  That was way more than she deserved.

As for "giving me life," she only had kids to keep her man; her & my dad weren't married when she became pregnant & back then, (around 1950), that wasn't acceptable.  She knew no man would stay with her unless he had to. 
And, (although I'm not a believer), I don't think God forgave her; she was bedridden for the last 3 months of her life & she hated that more than anything.  In fact, she told me, "Every night when I go to sleep, I hope I die by morning."  We were thinking, "Yeah...we hope so, too."


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## Sassycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Wow...I could tell you a thing or two about my children especially my oldest. I wish they had waited until I died but not so lucky for me. How old was your brother when he passed and what did he die from. I guess he was not Married if his daughter got everything. If his daughter was decent she would still share with her brothers. My main question is what did he die from and if he suffered?




*He passed away from Colon Cancer,he was 85yrs old and his wife had passed away 5yrs before him. His 2 son's took turns spending the nights with him and took care of him on weekends. He had 3 homes and one of them was a summer home on the beach. His daughter was the youngest of his 3 children and she didn't share anything with her brothers.One day when I was talking to her she was laughing and said he had so many stocks in different companies that they looked like branches on a tree.He was receiving $150,000 as his pension. She won't even let her brothers or their children   use the summer home for vacation.*


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## grahamg (Mar 29, 2020)

win231 said:


> Break
> As for "giving me life," she only had kids to keep her man; her & my dad weren't married when she became pregnant & back then, (around 1950), that wasn't acceptable.  She knew no man would stay with her unless he had to.
> And, (although I'm not a believer), I don't think God forgave her; she was bedridden for the last 3 months of her life & she hated that more than anything.  In fact, she told me, "Every night when I go to sleep, I hope I die by morning."  We were thinking, "Yeah...we hope so, too."



I hope you dont mind, but as you will see I've cut down your post about your mother, and I hope you'll forgive me again for finding the section I've picked out slightly amusing.

_"She only had kids to keep her man"_ you suggest, and you would have more insight into that aspect than anyone trying to assess your views, but I do still wonder whether anyone carrying a baby has such limited feelings, or hopes for the life they carry inside themselves for nine months, and care for thereafter, no matter how inadequately.


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## win231 (Mar 29, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I hope you dont mind, but as you will see I've cut down your post about your mother, and I hope you'll forgive me again for finding the section I've picked out slightly amusing.
> 
> _"She only had kids to keep her man"_ you suggest, and you would have more insight into that aspect than anyone trying to assess your views, but I do still wonder whether anyone carrying a baby has such limited feelings, or hopes for the life they carry inside themselves for nine months, and care for thereafter, no matter how inadequately.


She wasn't alone in that.  I've personally known several women who used pregnancy to trap their men - either financially or marriage -wise.


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## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *He passed away from Colon Cancer,he was 85yrs old and his wife had passed away 5yrs before him. His 2 son's took turns spending the nights with him and took care of him on weekends. He had 3 homes and one of them was a summer home on the beach. His daughter was the youngest of his 3 children and she didn't share anything with her brothers.One day when I was talking to her she was laughing and said he had so many stocks in different companies that they looked like branches on a tree.He was receiving $150,000 as his pension. She won't even let her brothers or their children   use the summer home for vacation.*


At the end of the day greed is very ugly. I hope the other sons are doing well in spite of it all. I believe that the good Lord will provide. She will need them at some point if for nothing more that a fond memory. Material things only go so far and at the end of the day you can’t take it with you. It can be a blessing and a curse. With every day we awake we have a chance to make things right. Let’s all pray for her because life is one big lesson.


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## Babycakes (Mar 29, 2020)

win231 said:


> Not every bad trait in someone can be blamed on mental illness; otherwise, every inmate in prison should be treated, instead of punished/incarcerated.
> Her selfishness & abuse was not due to any mental illness.  She was just full of rage that she chose to take out on her kids.  We only "abandoned" her after she died.  I made sure she was cared for - mainly because I promised our dad we would because that was his dying wish. He knew what kind of psycho he married & he was afraid we would abandon her after he passed.
> I hired & paid her nurses $1,200.00/week for the last 3 months when she was bedridden.  Before that, I chauffeured her & my dad for 2 years & did all their shopping, etc.  That was way more than she deserved.
> 
> ...


You are so bitter and even though you took care of them it’s clear you didn’t do it from your heart. I hope at some point before you pass on you can make peace with yourself if you don’t believe in a higher being. You provided the las 3 months and she breathed air into your lungs for 9 months while you were forming in her womb. However you look at it she would of been taken care of if you didn’t do what you did..even if it was by the state but I guarantee you would of never made it without her. I gave birth to six and I know what she sacrificed. It’s not even close. If she would of given you up for adoption...there would not be no you without her. Don’t get it twisted..


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## win231 (Mar 29, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> You are so bitter and even though you took care of them it’s clear you didn’t do it from your heart. I hope at some point before you pass on you can make peace with yourself if you don’t believe in a higher being. You provided the las 3 months and she breathed air into your lungs for 9 months while you were forming in her womb. However you look at it she would of been taken care of if you didn’t do what you did..even if it was by the state but I guarantee you would of never made it without her. I gave birth to six and I know what she sacrificed. It’s not even close. If she would of given you up for adoption...there would not be no you without her. Don’t get it twisted..


I'm not bitter; I'm proud that I kept my promise to my dad.
_Nature _kept me alive for 9 months; not her.
My siblings wanted nothing to do with her.  In fact my sister didn't speak to her for the last 7 years of her life.  In spite of everything, I just couldn't do that.  The State would have put her in the cheapest convalescent home they could find, where she would have been much more miserable.

Without her, I would have probably been raised in a foster home - which might have been as bad, or better....I'll never know.

One thing I've learned:  No one makes more excuses for toxic parents - than other toxic parents.


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm not bitter; I'm proud that I kept my promise to my dad.
> _Nature _kept me alive for 9 months; not her.
> My siblings wanted nothing to do with her.  In fact my sister didn't speak to her for the last 7 years of her life.  In spite of everything, I just couldn't do that.  The State would have put her in the cheapest convalescent home they could find, where she would have been much more miserable.
> 
> ...


I have made no excuses...just stated from my heart what my thoughts are. This is a Senior Forum to express your feeling...RIGHT...some people can dish it out but not receive it. I find this to be your case. What is Toxic....you don’t know me or what I’ve been through. Every response was a direct feeling from your statements..Right... I made no judgements about you other than what you said. On the other hand you have judged me from no facts. I have been called a lot of thing but Toxic is not not one even from my worse enemies. I suggest you don’t post if you don’t want honest feedback unless it is favorable to you. Good night and good life.


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have made no excuses...just stated from my heart what my thoughts are. This is a Senior Forum to express your feeling...RIGHT...some people can dish it out but not receive it. I find this to be your case. What is Toxic....you don’t know me or what I’ve been through. Every response was a direct feeling from your statements..Right... I made no judgements about you other than what you said. On the other hand you have judged me from no facts. I have been called a lot of thing but Toxic is not not one even from my worse enemies. I suggest you don’t post if you don’t want honest feedback unless it is favorable to you. Good night and good life.


Oh by the way nature didn’t not feed you....


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## win231 (Mar 30, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have made no excuses...just stated from my heart what my thoughts are. This is a Senior Forum to express your feeling...RIGHT...some people can dish it out but not receive it. I find this to be your case. What is Toxic....you don’t know me or what I’ve been through. Every response was a direct feeling from your statements..Right... I made no judgements about you other than what you said. On the other hand you have judged me from no facts. I have been called a lot of thing but Toxic is not not one even from my worse enemies. I suggest you don’t post if you don’t want honest feedback unless it is favorable to you. Good night and good life.


Oooh, aren't we touchy tonight?
Saying "I am so bitter" is a judgment.  And an unqualified one, at that.


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> Oooh, aren't we touchy tonight?
> Saying "I am so bitter" is a judgment.  And an unqualified one, at that.


Good night Boo Boo..sleep tight...


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## grahamg (Mar 30, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm not bitter; I'm proud that I kept my promise to my dad.
> _Nature _kept me alive for 9 months; not her.
> My siblings wanted nothing to do with her.  In fact my sister didn't speak to her for the last 7 years of her life.  In spite of everything, I just couldn't do that.  The State would have put her in the cheapest convalescent home they could find, where she would have been much more miserable.
> 
> ...



Its wrong to argue too much, but please dont take offence when I say "abortion" could have thwarted nature couldn't it, so far as your own existence on this planet.

However, your feelings towards your mum are of course completely your affair, and no one will ever know whether there is/was another side to it, (such as your mum couldn't help her behaviour, as I now know my mum couldn't, when its too late).

I must say though, "I make excuses for toxic parents", and yet feel I wasn't toxic, and the success of my child in her life, is a form of testament to that fact (ditto our OP on this thread). It is obviously an oversimplification to say "toxic parents make more excuses for other toxic parents", but I'd suggest those believing this kind of thing add to the situation where in the UK at least, there are "no parental rights in our statute" (only "obligations", something that may contravene human rights legislation according to Clem Henricson of the NCPR).

Respect for older people, as socially required in some cultures, has been more or less obliterated in the west too. 

Please dont take offence though, good friends and some relatives of mine have said similar things about there parents, (especially where the parent abandoned the children altogether).


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

bearcat said:


> Going into any interaction with anyone with any expectations is setting yourself up for bitter disappointment.
> 
> Because things so often go smoothly, when someone does frustrate or disappoint us, we get upset.
> 
> ...


My mistake was to decide to give them life because it was my choice and my choice alone. Live and learn.


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Some people enjoy signing up on the board for  the fun of it  ... to toy with people,   and see what kind of reaction they can get. ...
> There have been several that have done that over time.


Not me...


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## Babycakes (Mar 30, 2020)

Empty said:


> Sorry, but being in this same position, this reply really hit me hard.  "They didn't ask to be born" is something I expect to hear from a teenager, not a mature adult.


No excuse to disrespect their mother.


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## Em in Ohio (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> No excuse to disrespect their mother.


Thank you.  


Babycakes said:


> No excuse to disrespect their mother.


In my case, I know that my daughter would not treat her worst enemy the way she treated me.  I was actually intimidated by her.  I did nothing to deserve that.  This is fact.  All that I wanted was an apology.  I guess that is not in her repertoire of reactions.  She did reach out about a month ago, acting as if there was never any problem - asking if I was okay, given the corona virus situation.  I was devastated by her outbursts - and I went online looking for ideas on how to cope with an alienated child.  All I found was sites that defended children, as if it was always the parent's fault.  That's just not true.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Not me...


Denial is not just a river in Egypt.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> No excuse to disrespect their mother.


Au contraire.  Respect is _earned_, not something you automatically get because of your title.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Not me...


LOL


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> My mistake was to decide to give them life because it was my choice and my choice alone. Live and learn.


No argument there.


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> My mistake was to decide to give them life because it was my choice and my choice alone. Live and learn.


Learning is only good if you can put it to some use, which you can't, you're too old.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Empty said:


> Thank you.
> 
> In my case, I know that my daughter would not treat her worst enemy the way she treated me.  I was actually intimidated by her.  I did nothing to deserve that.  This is fact.  All that I wanted was an apology.  I guess that is not in her repertoire of reactions.  She did reach out about a month ago, acting as if there was never any problem - asking if I was okay, given the corona virus situation.  I was devastated by her outbursts - and I went online looking for ideas on how to cope with an alienated child.  All I found was sites that defended children, as if it was always the parent's fault.  That's just not true.


I am a mother like you.. I know right from wrong just as we all do. My children know better than to disrespect me then call up some time later as if all is forgotten. When your daughter called back you should of let her call go to voicemail so you could screen the call and decide if you wanted to call her back. We have to teach people how to treat us. It could be a child, adult children or even a friend. By screening the call you would have the peace of mind if there was a real issue because as a mother we will always have that concern. Good luck my friend I know you can turn things around. At lease she called...is one way of looking at it. My children are so stubborn many years would go by in between situations.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Learning is only good if you can put it to some use, which you can't, you're too old.


You are never too old to learn..


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> You are never too old to learn..


Of course.  But you are too old to do anything useful with the knowledge.  Really sorry you are sorry they were born.

Of course, IMO, it's a woman's right to choose, but that is before the birth, not after.


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## RadishRose (Mar 31, 2020)

So what is it you seek from us @Babycakes?


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> So what is it you seek from us @Babycakes?


What are you referring too. I don’t seek anything from yo.who are you?


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Of course.  But you are too old to do anything useful with the knowledge.  Really sorry you are sorry they were born.
> 
> Of course, IMO, it's a woman's right to choose, but that is before the birth, not after.


The truth is the truth....regret...


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## RadishRose (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have no ideal how to get out of this situation





Babycakes said:


> Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Did you not receive the help you sought?


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Did you not receive the help you sought?


I received plenty of information and it has been appreciated. The Senior Forum is a useful tool to provide opinions from others. I am thankful I found the site. The information I’ve received has been great.


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> The truth is the truth....regret...


I know.  I have regrets, so many.  I calm myself by thinking all those roads I took led to my son, that I wouldn't have had him any other way except through my "mistakes", and I'm so sorry you can't do the same.

Six kids is a lot of kids to have under any circumstances!  What were you thinking?!


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## JustBonee (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Not me...



Most people,  when they meet someone for the first time, don't throw their personal problems out there as a "Greeting".   .. just sayin'


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I know.  I have regrets, so many.  I calm myself by thinking all those roads I took led to my son, that I wouldn't have had him any other way except through my "mistakes", and I'm so sorry you can't do the same.
> 
> Six kids is a lot of kids to have under any circumstances!  What were you thinking?!


Six kids 4 different fathers. Now I’ve been married 20 years to a man 12 years younger and he isn’t the father of any. He always says he wish he would have met me earlier. He said the other night we would have had as many as the good Lord would have blessed us with. He helped me raise 4 of them. The youngest were 4 and 5. Even thyI have my struggles with them they call him every day and love him dearly. It’s a long story but I am thankful they did not take him for granted because he chose to be in their life. They greatly respect him for that and totally take me for granted. Oh well it is what it is. I suppose things could be worse and he and I could be divorced. We are very happy and he is a dream come true. I have been blessed with our relationship especially with the age difference.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Most people,  when they meet someone for the first time, don't throw their personal problems out there as a "Greeting".   .. just sayin'


This is a forum to express yourself..du??


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## JustBonee (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> This is a forum to express yourself..du??



This isn't Dear Abby


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> This isn't Dear Abby


Oh Really...what is it...I did not read the qualifications to post...it caught your attention. Everybody can chose to respond..what attracted you to take your time to respond..My Dear Bunny or should I say Abby.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Most people,  when they meet someone for the first time, don't throw their personal problems out there as a "Greeting".   .. just sayin'


They do when they're seeking sympathy instead of helpful information.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

win231 said:


> They do when they're seeking sympathy instead of helpful information.


Thank you..Mr. Abby...


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2020)

I don't see anything wrong with seeking sympathy now & again.  Nothing wrong with compassion and understanding.  Nothing.  We're not made of stone, we're humans.  Warm-blooded mammals.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I don't see anything wrong with seeking sympathy now & again.  Nothing wrong with compassion and understanding.  Nothing.  We're not made of stone, we're humans.  Warm-blooded mammals.


Why  does someone have to to rain on anybody’s parade. Whatever happened to “if you don’t have anything positive to say don’t say anything at all” some of these seniors are miserable people. I have had to respond to so much negativity. I don’t mind though because I will always say my mind. Just remember if you can dish it out you have to be able to take it. Not you though Pepper you seem to be sensitive to others..I appreciate your input....always.


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## Em in Ohio (Mar 31, 2020)

*Desiderata - Words for Life*
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

_— Max Ehrmann, 1927_


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## grahamg (Mar 31, 2020)

Can I just say this thread "seems to have taken a funny turn", and as far as I'm aware, this time I'm not responsible!  .


----------



## C'est Moi (Mar 31, 2020)

_ Children learn what they live.  _

Oh... and when a person shows you who they are, believe them...  



Babycakes said:


> I am a mother like you.. I know right from wrong just as we all do. *My children know better than to disrespect me then call up some time later as if all is forgotten*. When your daughter called back you should of let her call go to voicemail so you could screen the call and decide if you wanted to call her back. *We have to teach people how to treat us.* It could be a child, adult children or even a friend. By screening the call you would have the peace of mind if there was a real issue because as a mother we will always have that concern. Good luck my friend I know you can turn things around. At lease she called...is one way of looking at it. My children are so stubborn many years would go by in between situations.



Sounds like you "taught them how to treat you," so what are you complaining about?


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> _ Children learn what they live.  _
> 
> Oh... and when a person shows you who they are, believe them...
> 
> ...


No complaints...just facts...my dear...


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Empty said:


> *Desiderata - Words for Life*
> Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
> and remember what peace there may be in silence.
> As far as possible without surrender
> ...


Alrighty then....noted....


----------



## RadishRose (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> I have no ideal how to get out of this situation. I sacrificed my entire life to give them an exceptional upbringing. The absolute best always putting their needs ahead of mine. I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me. The older ones turned the younger ones against me with lies and untruths. As awful as it is I have no ideal what to do.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Sounds like a big complaint to me, wouldn't you agree?


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Sounds like a big complaint to me, wouldn't you agree?


Listen up....you can call it whatever you want..I wrote the post to get advise from someone who may have a suggestion....I considered this to be an unfortunate situation that I hope to someday correct. I have heard from a few with some scenarios similar to mine with how they may have dealt with it. You clearly have no ideal of the sensitivity of my situation and just feel it’s acomplaint. Do me a favor and move on...


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## Sassycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

*I don't know the answer to this. My Dad's family turned against him when he was 16yrs old and married my Mom. He was the oldest child of 7 and they depended on his paycheck. They were cruel to my Mother all the time and after my brother and sister and I was born they hated us too. None of our cousins on that side of the family were allowed to even talk to us. I really respected my Mom because she made sure my Dad always had contact with his family and even me ,my sister and brother. When my Dad passed away my parents had been married 63yrs. I honestly don't know how my Mom handled it all those years, but she did.
I don't think I could have. Unless someone is in a similar situation, I don't think they could handle it or understand it.*


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Can I just say this thread "seems to have taken a funny turn", and as far as I'm aware, this time I'm not responsible!  .


Be patient.  We'll find a way to blame you.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *I don't know the answer to this. My Dad's family turned against him when he was 16yrs old and married my Mom. He was the oldest child of 7 and they depended on his paycheck. They were cruel to my Mother all the time and after my brother and sister and I was born they hated us too. None of our cousins on that side of the family were allowed to even talk to us. I really respected my Mom because she made sure my Dad always had contact with his family and even me ,my sister and brother. When my Dad passed away my parents had been married 63yrs. I honestly don't know how my Mom handled it all those years, but she did.
> I don't think I could have. Unless someone is in a similar situation, I don't think they could handle it or understand it.*


Your mother is a special person. Most people would build up resentment over the years. Thanks for sharing because I fight myself daily for doing just that. To know she endured this for so long and remained a positive force for your father is truly inspiring.


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## peppermint (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> This is a forum to express yourself..du??





Pepper said:


> I don't see anything wrong with seeking sympathy now & again.  Nothing wrong with compassion and understanding.  Nothing.  We're not made of stone, we're humans.  Warm-blooded mammals.


I'm with you, pepper....Everyone here, say anything your heart desires....We don't know you personally...Like pepper said..."Human's"


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## Gary O' (Mar 31, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Whatever happened to “if you don’t have anything positive to say don’t say anything at all”


Seems pretty good advice


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## applecruncher (Mar 31, 2020)

Humans? I thought @Gary O' was reptile or amphibian. Can't recall which.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Seems pretty good advice


Uh...well.....how does that apply to the OP? _ "I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me."_


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## grahamg (Mar 31, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *I don't know the answer to this. My Dad's family turned against him when he was 16yrs old and married my Mom. He was the oldest child of 7 and they depended on his paycheck. They were cruel to my Mother all the time and after my brother and sister and I was born they hated us too. None of our cousins on that side of the family were allowed to even talk to us. I really respected my Mom because she made sure my Dad always had contact with his family and even me ,my sister and brother. When my Dad passed away my parents had been married 63yrs. I honestly don't know how my Mom handled it all those years, but she did.
> I don't think I could have. Unless someone is in a similar situation, I don't think they could handle it or understand it.*


Your post reminded me of a story I heard about a young girl whose mother had died, and her dad remarried someone with four children of her own, (the girl herself, as a middle aged woman told me this BTW).
She was maybe 12/14 years old, and her father took the quite extraordinary step of refusing to speak to his own child for a number of years, whilst they all lived in the same house. The only interpretation I can put on the father's behaviour is that he did this in order to be absolutely sure he didn't favour his own child over the four children he had become a step parent to, (maybe he'd realised his new partner wanted this or agreed to shun his own daughter in this way with her - perhaps they'd seen the daughter was a bit spoiled or something).
You can probably imagine the negative impact this treatment had upon the young girl at an impressionable age, but who knows, you cant live other people's lives for them, although I believe the father was still wrong to do as he did.


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## Gary O' (Mar 31, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Humans? I thought @Gary O' was reptile or amphibian. Can't recall which


Oh, I dunno.....pick one


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## Gary O' (Mar 31, 2020)

win231 said:


> Uh...well.....how does that apply to the OP? _ "I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me."_


Precisely


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## grahamg (Mar 31, 2020)

win231 said:


> Gary O' said:
> Seems pretty good advice
> 
> win231 wrote:
> Uh...well.....how does that apply to the OP? _ "I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me."_



I believe trying to forget past injuries or hurts is a good thing, whenever possible.

I know I'll be criticised for mentioning my own daughter (again!), but whilst reassuring everyone she is a marvellous, kind, loving  person in her own right, her treatment of me has crossed boundaries certain to harden my heart against her, (maybe intended to?). 
On the other hand I doubt training your children to be "like this or that", (sorry clumsy wording I know), is unlikely to work or build good relationships, because each one is an individual, and needs to be thought of as such, needing different things from you/their parent, at different times, (I've never had more than one child, so can't base my thoughts on real experience though).


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## Gary O' (Mar 31, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I doubt training your children to be "like this or that", (sorry clumsy wording I know), is unlikely to work or build good relationships, because each one is an individual, and needs to be thought of as such, needing different things from you/their parent, at different times


Y'know....there's a lot of good thoughts in this thread

But I can't identify with most of 'em

My folks were just my folks
They had their thoughts, I had mine
Left home early
Never looked back
well......until many years later

My kids are my kids
They have their own traits, good/bad
Their life

Thing is, saying negative things about parents, kids, cousins...whoever, is a load of crap
It doesn't do anything

Git on a forum and carp about offspring right outa the gate......the lady has problems bigger'n mouthy kids

You sympathizers have yer work cut out
This kinda crud has no end
This kinda thread isn't created for answers


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## RadishRose (Mar 31, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> This kinda thread isn't created for answers


You got it.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

win231 said:


> Uh...well.....how does that apply to the OP? _ "I never would have imagined they would be so selfish and ungrateful. They want me to drop dead so they don’t have to ever face how they’ve treated me."_


That was a statement of unfortunate feeling...asking for advice to turn the situation around. You can look at it however you chose but I stated it with hope of making it better. It appears your apple does not fall far from the negative tree. Some apples are sweet some are  sour. The statement of fact may appear sour but some good positions advice can sprinkle sugar and make a pretty tasty pie.


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## Babycakes (Mar 31, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Your post reminded me of a story I heard about a young girl whose mother had died, and her dad remarried someone with four children of her own, (the girl herself, as a middle aged woman told me this BTW).
> She was maybe 12/14 years old, and her father took the quite extraordinary step of refusing to speak to his own child for a number of years, whilst they all lived in the same house. The only interpretation I can put on the father's behaviour is that he did this in order to be absolutely sure he didn't favour his own child over the four children he had become a step parent to, (maybe he'd realised his new partner wanted this or agreed to shun his own daughter in this way with her - perhaps they'd seen the daughter was a bit spoiled or something).
> You can probably imagine the negative impact this treatment had upon the young girl at an impressionable age, but who knows, you cant live other people's lives for them, although I believe the father was still wrong to do as he did.


Quite sad..I hope she turned out well in spite of it. I’m sure it was a difficult time.


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## win231 (Apr 1, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> That was a statement of unfortunate feeling...asking for advice to turn the situation around. You can look at it however you chose but I stated it with hope of making it better. It appears your apple does not fall far from the negative tree. Some apples are sweet some are  sour. The statement of fact may appear sour but some good positions advice can sprinkle sugar and make a pretty tasty pie.


Yup.  All 5 of your children are bad & you're good.
And.....it's so unfair, you poor thing!!


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yup.  All 5 of your children are bad & you're good.
> And.....it's so unfair, you poor thing!!


Thanks for the support.... I appreciate you. not......I’m far from good...just a human who is at lease trying to do better. I would not consider any of my children bad. They are hard working law abiding citizens. I am very proud of that.....


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## grahamg (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Grahamg wrote:
> "I doubt training your children to be "like this or that", (sorry clumsy wording I know), is unlikely to work or build good relationships, because each one is an individual, and needs to be thought of as such, needing different things from you/their parent, at different times "
> 
> Gary O wrote:
> ...



You've got a laid back attitude to life, (is that so?), and lived long enough to have some idea what you're talking about.

I know I looked at my role as a dad in a different way, certainly not laid back at least. I thought the thing that mattered was ultimately to love your child, (not arguing whether you loved your children too though). Loving my child meant showing her there was nothing I would hold back emotionally, and I do think you either love someone or you dont, there is no half way house. My child was asked by court welfare officers whether she loved me, and she said she didn't think she did to them, (I believe they have no right at all to pry into such areas of personal life, and agree with the Canadian lawyer Goldwater who spoke on the need for privacy in personal life).

When I once asked my child whether she loved me or not, (and I think I only asked once), she said "Deep down I do". I didn't want her to love me any other way than "deep down", so I'm satisfied with that aspect of an overall failed relationship. There maybe aren't answers on thread like this one, but we all have to make our own choices dont we in life.   .


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You've got a laid back attitude to life, (is that so?), and lived long enough to have some idea what you're talking about.
> 
> I know I looked at my role as a dad in a different way, certainly not laid back at least. I thought the thing that mattered was ultimately to love your child, (not arguing whether you loved your children too though). Loving my child meant showing her there was nothing I would hold back emotionally, and I do think you either love someone or you dont, there is no half way house. My child was asked by court welfare officers whether she loved me, and she said she didn't think she did to them, (I believe they have no right at all to pry into such areas of personal life, and agree with the Canadian lawyer Goldwater who spoke on the need for privacy in personal life).
> 
> When I once asked my child whether she loved me or not, (and I think I only asked once), she said "Deep down I do". I didn't want her to love me any other way than "deep down", so I'm satisfied with that aspect of an overall failed relationship. There maybe aren't answers on thread like this one, but we all have to make our own choices dont we in life.   .


True...thanks for your honesty...


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## Gary O' (Apr 1, 2020)

grahamg said:


> There maybe aren't answers on thread like this one, but *we all have to make our own choices dont we in life*.


Sure looks that way
My lady does enough fawning over our kids for both of us.
Me, I mostly just told 'em to pick up after themselves, and to put my tools back
But when their mom talks to 'em, they always ask about me.
Maybe the trick is to be aloof, standoffish

Seems to've worked for me

We did a lot of camping/fishing, though
I still hear them talking about how those were the best of times

Doubt anyone has all the answers
and if they do, they prolly don't have any kids


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Sure looks that way
> My lady does enough fawning over our kids for both of us.
> Me, I mostly just told 'em to pick up after themselves, and to put my tools back
> But when their mom talks to 'em, they always ask about me.
> ...


So refreshing to hear your response. I never thought about it like that...but it makes sense. It’s too late for me now but maybe someone will read this and consider making some changes. Thanks for sharing.


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## Gary O' (Apr 1, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> It’s too late for me now


It's never too late

I'm gonna post something here that I've posted before
Rereading it sometimes clears my senses....realigns my perspective when it gets skewed from time to time; 

*I just watched the movie 'Shine' last night

.....reminded me of my eldest son

was hard to hold emotion thru some parts

was much harder for my Lady

but we remained

riveted

My son
Excelled in academics
Skipped grades
Won awards
Became somewhat sought after
Mensa
Artistic things hung in municipal halls
Life for him was just too slow apace
Stayed up for days at a time
He’d regurgitate all his thoughts to his mother and I 
It was a bit suffocating

Then one day he came to me in my shop
....and began crying, telling me he felt he was going crazy, 
but unable to put his feelings into words
I hugged him
Told him all kids go thru puberty and change
‘this too shall pass’ kinda thing

The next years are a blur
I guess maybe I never have wished to dwell on the events in those years

I’ll try to piece some together on my own, as I know better than to ask my lady


He ended up in prison
At 19
Advancing from a minimum security facility to OSP
And on to ‘thunderdome’
Where nobody wants to go

Tried to arrange visits
Rejected countless times
Talked to OSP counselors
‘forget your son, concentrate on your other children’ 

We got a call
OSP does not call anyone
‘You need to see your son’

The visiting area was like a staging zone for zoo critters
Steel tables, benches, cemented in
Chain link walls and doors
He was led in by guards
Shackled head to toe
Made to sit
Unseeing eyes
No recognition
Indistinguishable utterances
He stunk to high heaven
Never looked our way

On the way home I had to pull over, off the freeway
I don’t remember the last time I cried
Maybe as a small child...
But
Never wept like that in my life
And have yet too since
Bitter
Helpless
Godless 
Utter hopelessness 

A week (?) later we got another call
He was being transferred to the psych ward across the street
Where ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’ was filmed

We were told he had quit eating entirely
Weighed 90 lbs
A guard carried him across the street

We were led to the visiting area
Typical booth like situation for visitors
Only, the other side of the glass was something from a zombie movie
We got to watch him attempt to drink milk and cry

My lady had a very hard time
I went alone
Weeks of visiting later, he was released
Just like that

After 7 years of maximum security  

to us

I do not do well when cleaning up men with uncontrolled body functions

Triage 
Nut bins
Meds

It’s all a blur

Somewhere in there, when he was still cognizant, I did a bit of a fraught thing…

We talked about his options
He wanted to go camping

So

Him and I packed his meager belongings

Bought him some basic camp stuff

Drove him to the Trask river area


And dropped him off

while it began to rain

Ever do something that gave you immediate relief, knowing the end result would probably not be optimal?

The sack of cats Dad would have me toss out the window of a speeding Chevy may have had an influence

On the way back home, I tried not to think.

Still

Thoughts crept in

Maybe he’d just lie there curled in his sleeping bag 
Inert
Oblivious
Until days later large birds of prey would dine on his remains

It’s all a blur

They found him 300 miles south
Incoherent

The Tillamook women’s mental health facility asked us to take him back 'he can't stay here'

More triage

Got him hooked up with a place called Luke-Dorf

General population nut bin for semi-functional goofballs 
Then what they call the quad
Then paired up in a shared apartment
And now
On his own
On a budget

I figger the tax payer’s dollars for this are from this tax payer

During these times he’d ever so often not take his meds
Sometimes it was because they changed colors or shapes and he didn’t think they were right
Sometimes it was just because he thought he no longer needed them
Always ended with me going over there, reattaching his phone, and fishing his glasses outa the toilet.

He’s as functional now as you and me, first look.

As long as he takes his meds.

Sorry
This is jumbled time line mess
My lady can recite the events like they happened yesterday
7 or more years of them
I will not take her there


Couple things;

Underage folks do not get diagnosed in regard to mental health
No matter how batshit crazy they are
At least they didn’t then

but

Rosie O'Donnell can git outa bed to do a show
Then go back to bed
And she’s clinically nuts

I know, I know, mental illness is different than insanity
I jus’ wanted to be trite for a bit during this scattered post

*


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> It's never too late
> 
> I'm gonna post something here that I've posted before
> Rereading it sometimes clears my senses....realigns my perspective when it gets skewed from time to time;
> ...


What a story...where is he now?


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## Gary O' (Apr 1, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> where is he now?


He's in a nice apartment
Doing quite well, considering
Heavy into computer technology, and other stuff waaaay beyond my scope

He knows to religiously take his meds, and has his twice yearly checkup to make sure those meds aren't destroying his organs
(they're rather potent)

He'll be 50 next year


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> He's in a nice apartment
> Doing quite well, considering
> Heavy into computer technology, and other stuff waaaay beyond my scope
> 
> ...


Does he hold down a job? Is he able to have friends or stay to himself? I’m happy to hear he turned things around. How often do you and your wife see him?


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## Gary O' (Apr 1, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Does he hold down a job? Is he able to have friends or stay to himself? I’m happy to hear he turned things around. How often do you and your wife see him?


He's on disability
He has a few select friends
He's 300 miles away, but we visit once a year
He's not the most sociable person in the world.....unless you speak tech-speak
Right now he's into building/designing hybrid electric bikes


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> He's on disability
> He has a few select friends
> He's 300 miles away, but we visit once a year
> He's not the most sociable person in the world.....unless you speak tech-speak
> Right now he's into building/designing hybrid electric bikes


Still I’m amazed how he turned things around. My brother held a good job for 10 years driving the city bus. He was fired for stealing the bus fares. He was never ever to rebound. He had some difficulty in his youth with the law. But after losing the job he ended up homeless for over 20 years and eventually died of a heart attacked while living on the streets. I wish he could have found his way.


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Oh by the way...disability generally doesn’t pay much. The fact he is able to sustain off of it is also commendable.


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## Gary O' (Apr 1, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> disability generally doesn’t pay much. The fact he is able to sustain off of it is also commendable.


No, it doesn't
But, he's resourceful 

Sorry about yer brother

I've got other kids, one homeless, meth head...she's turning 40 soon

Turns out, no matter what/how one does things to help, everbod makes their choices
It's really the only power one has
...and cannot be taken away, be it authorities, or a well meaning parent


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## Babycakes (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> No, it doesn't
> But, he's resourceful
> 
> Sorry about yer brother
> ...


I’ve come to learn that. It has been a delight sharing life with you. Hope to keep in touch. I bet you have many more stories to share.


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## grahamg (Apr 1, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> No, it doesn't
> But, he's resourceful
> 
> Sorry about yer brother
> ...



You've given us all a dose of reality here, and along with others made this thread into one of the most moving I've come across.


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## Gary O' (Apr 2, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You've given us all a dose of reality here, and along with others made this thread into one of the most moving I've come across


Sure not meaning to upset anyone's apple cart.
I tend to stay with the light stuff
I mean, like everbod else here, live long enough, stuff happens.
Nobody comes out unscathed

The happy things are rather rare
All the more reason to dwell on 'em

But, yeah, that reality thing is there, sometimes tucked away, in the back of the head
But, it's there

One must learn to keep a balance
Not nuts giddy day in day out, but not moping around all morose 24/7 either

Laughing is a great thing


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## Babycakes (Apr 2, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Sure not meaning to upset anyone's apple cart.
> I tend to stay with the light stuff
> I mean, like everbod else here, live long enough, stuff happens.
> Nobody comes out unscathed
> ...


Laughing is pure relief....it’s your inner self being relieved of stress. One of the reasons I avoid stressful people is to eliminate stress and discomfort. I am so open to meeting new people and enjoying life. My husband and I are avid Poker Players. It’s a great way to meet new people. That is one of the main reasons we chose to retire in Las Vegas.


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## grahamg (Apr 2, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Laughing is pure relief....it’s your inner self being relieved of stress. One of the reasons I avoid stressful people is to eliminate stress and discomfort. I am so open to meeting new people and enjoying life. My husband and I are avid Poker Players. It’s a great way to meet new people. That is one of the main reasons we chose to retire in Las Vegas.



bet you're a fair poker player, and you'd make mincemeat of me, as I show everything I'm thinking in my face!


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## Babycakes (Apr 2, 2020)

grahamg said:


> bet you're a fair poker player, and you'd make mincemeat of me, as I show everything I'm thinking in my face!


I’m decent but like I said I mainly play for the socialization. Now my husband is another story strictly about the win. You will probably see him on the tv sometime in the near future. He is really coming up the ladder and making a name for himself.


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## grahamg (Apr 6, 2020)

Babycakes said:


> Laughing is pure relief....it’s your inner self being relieved of stress. One of the reasons I avoid stressful people is to eliminate stress and discomfort. I am so open to meeting new people and enjoying life. My husband and I are avid Poker Players. It’s a great way to meet new people. That is one of the main reasons we chose to retire in Las Vegas.



You may already realise, as a poker player, that some people responding on threads such as this one, have another agenda besides the thread topic (myself being one of them, I admit).
You may not know all that much about parental alienation following divorce (apologies can't remember whether divorce affected your family)? I do know a bit about it, and without derailing your thread, I just wonder your feelings about the way parents are treated after divorce, particularly non resident parents, when everything is supposed to be about the best interests of the child, rather than mutual interests between the parent/child?


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