# Mink



## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

ok... so I put this here, because fur can be a really hot button for some..  AND I am an animal rights person too...  BUT lately I have been having a hankering to purchase a really nice fur.  I want a contemporary style that can go with jeans or dress casual.  On the practical side.. there is nothing warmer and if you take care of it properly, nothing lasts longer or stays stylish longer.  I remember my Aunt and Grandma always wearing their full length minks out for holidays or to church.  So.... now... I'm really torn.   I love the look..  particularly of mink.. but of course, these are/were living creatures.  However, they are bred for the fur industry.  Much like livestock.   I don't think I would ever consider a fur that was trapped from the wild.  SO... what is your opinion?  Yey... neigh.... or neutral?


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Last summer I was standing on the porch watering the geraniums and I spied a little movement out of the corner of my eye.  I stood very still and a few moments later, a little tiny black face popped out from under our porch and within seconds a baby mink, black as ebony was investigating the garden hose that lay coiled across the porch.  As I stood and watched, he inspected the hose, the watering can, whatever bug happened by and he paid no mind to me.  Absolutely lovely little fellow and only about ten inches long including his tail.

He was likely an offspring of a farmed mink that must have escaped at some point from the fur barns down the road.  

Looking it up online to determine how old he might have been, I saw several websites and one of them showed images of minks in filthy cages on fur farms and how they are killed.  Brutal, brutal, brutal and no better than leg-hold traps.  

My opinion, fur looks great on the original owner and whether bred for the fur industry or trapped in the woods, they suffer, they bleed, they die.

Besides, if women really want the look of fur, maybe we should quit shaving our legs!


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## hollydolly (Jan 26, 2015)

No need to wear real fur IMO there are soo many fake furs available  that look and feel just like the real thing..


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> Last summer I was standing on the porch watering the geraniums and I spied a little movement out of the corner of my eye.  I stood very still and a few moments later, a little tiny black face popped out from under our porch and within seconds a baby mink, black as ebony was investigating the garden hose that lay coiled across the porch.  As I stood and watched, he inspected the hose, the watering can, whatever bug happened by and he paid no mind to me.  Absolutely lovely little fellow and only about ten inches long including his tail.
> 
> He was likely an offspring of a farmed mink that must have escaped at some point from the fur barns down the road.
> 
> ...



That's what I was afraid of..


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## Jackie22 (Jan 26, 2015)

neigh


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

There ARE some really nice high end faux furs out there....

on the other hand..  Cows die a nasty death in slaughter houses.... does anyone here refuse to wear leather footwear or coats... or  purses and wallets?


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> There ARE some really nice high end faux furs out there....
> 
> on the other hand..  Cows die a nasty death in slaughter houses.... does anyone here refuse to wear leather footwear or coats... or  purses and wallets?




Well, I've got some old leather stuff still hanging around but I don't buy new and for exactly the reason you point out.  I don't want to be party to their suffering either.

And what exactly were 'you afraid of'?  Afraid of baby minks (they're so cute!!!) or afraid of what your legs will look like if you don't shave them?  Could be a conversation starter!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> Well, I've got some old leather stuff still hanging around but I don't buy new and for exactly the reason you point out.  I don't want to be party to their suffering either.
> 
> And what exactly were 'you afraid of'?  Afraid of baby minks (they're so cute!!!) or afraid of what your legs will look like if you don't shave them?  Could be a conversation starter!



Afraid that my trepidation in purchasing a natural fur would be validated..  yet thinking that it's hypocritical as I have no problem eating meat or wearing fine leather. 

As for my legs.... I have no hair on them to shave..  I'm lucky that way.


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 26, 2015)




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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Well sorry to validate, but at least you're making a conscious decision in this regard.  Good for you!  I know a little mink who would give you a big hug!  Okay, a tiny hug but a hug nonetheless!

As for the legs and shaving, well, maybe you'll have to fall back on other conversation starters.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Ken N Tx said:


> View attachment 13584View attachment 13585




Yep, definitely better on the original owner.  As for your second image, don't let our jealousy betray our morals!


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## Mike (Jan 26, 2015)

There are some great fake furs out there as previously stated.

*BUT, *The Guards Regiments that guard Buckingham Palace and
the Queen, still use real fur for the "Bearskins", the fur hats that
they wear as they cannot get a fake fur to act the same as the
real thing, I read some time ago.

They are still looking.

full story here

Mike.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Well, they can put a man on the moon, they can live on a space station for months at a time and we can communicate around the globe in an instant.  I'm sure they'll crack this one too because bears look stupid on 'fops' heads.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 26, 2015)

This guy liked wearing furs too but they weren't from any animal ...


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## oakapple (Jan 26, 2015)

I wouldn't wear a mink coat, as others say, there are good faux ones available. Yes, we all wear leather in various ways, but the cattle are killed for their meat, and the leather is the by-product, so we don't waste anything that way.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm not an activist, and I realize that people are going to wear real furs whether I like it or not, that's their right.  I personally would not own one, although I admit they are nice looking and feeling.

  In our parent's time, a lot of people wore furs.  The stoles with the heads still attached used to creep me out as a kid.  I don't like leather for clothes either.  Yes, I do eat meat and grew up eating it, but honestly, the last couple of decades I've eaten much less than I did when I was young.  Watching those documentaries on TV about the slaughterhouses and the inhumane/abusive treatment of those animals makes me very angry and sad. 

 So, my opinion, get a fake fur, just as nice and you'll feel good inside, where it really counts. :love_heart:


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## AZ Jim (Jan 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> There ARE some really nice high end faux furs out there....
> 
> on the other hand..  Cows die a nasty death in slaughter houses.... does anyone here refuse to wear leather footwear or coats... or  purses and wallets?



There's a big difference between a woman's fur coat for enhancing their appearance and eating meat as a food source.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 26, 2015)

I like the look of real fur. As you said it's warmer and lasts longer. Animals are raised for various reasons for humans to use.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 26, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I like the look of real fur. As you said it's warmer and lasts longer. Animals are raised for various reasons for humans to use.



I could agree if we were talking a mountain man trying to stay warm and not having any heavy winter clothes, but when it comes to just a decorative way to dress when we have plenty of alternatives to choose from, I don't.  As to the animals we eat, that is a different story.  We eat to live and animals and fish make up our diets.  We do not squander the left overs in the animals we kill to eat.  I also would have to see test results as to it bring warmer or more durable.


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## Cookie (Jan 26, 2015)

QS, would you consider the option getting a second hand one?  I wonder what happened to all those mink coats people stopped wearing. I used to see racks and racks of them in my neighborhood Goodwill in the 90s. Perhaps they were donated somewhere cold and far away?

Rationale of if it's ok to eat meat then it's ok to wear mink strikes me as confusing because after learning about meat/chicken slaughter and processing practices, I would think people would understand and make conscious choices. Then there is the seal slaughter that takes place every spring in the east coast here, which is dying out, but very disturbing. The seal fur is not wanted here but is exported overseas somewhere, maybe China?


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Cookie said:


> QS, would you consider the option getting a second hand one?  I wonder what happened to all those mink coats people stopped wearing. I used to see racks and racks of them in my neighborhood Goodwill in the 90s. Perhaps they were donated somewhere cold and far away?
> 
> Rationale of if it's ok to eat meat then it's ok to wear mink strikes me as confusing because after learning about meat/chicken slaughter and processing practices, I would think people would understand and make conscious choices. Then there is the seal slaughter that takes place every spring in the east coast here, which is dying out, but very disturbing. The seal fur is not wanted here but is exported overseas somewhere, maybe China?



Well just like Rhino horn and tiger bones... those are considered aphrodisiacs in other countries.  We can't fix the world.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> Last summer I was standing on the porch watering the geraniums and I spied a little movement out of the corner of my eye.  I stood very still and a few moments later, a little tiny black face popped out from under our porch and within seconds a baby mink, black as ebony was investigating the garden hose that lay coiled across the porch.  As I stood and watched, he inspected the hose, the watering can, whatever bug happened by and he paid no mind to me.  Absolutely lovely little fellow and only about ten inches long including his tail.
> 
> He was likely an offspring of a farmed mink that must have escaped at some point from the fur barns down the road.
> 
> ...



AMEN to that Debby


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Well..... then I think I will go out and buy a mink...   lol!!


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## AZ Jim (Jan 26, 2015)

That's the beauty of most of the free world you have choices.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I wouldn't wear a mink coat, as others say, there are good faux ones available. Yes, we all wear leather in various ways, but the cattle are killed for their meat, and the leather is the by-product, so we don't waste anything that way.




A lot of leather does come as a by-product of the meat industry in North America, but believe it or not, India is one of the largest sources of leather.  The cattle are bought up and then forced on long marches that are brutal beyond belief to where they are eventually slaughtered.  Their tails are broken, chili pepper or tobacco is rubbed into their eyes, anything to get them to get up and keep walking when they collapse from exhaustion and starvation.  Then because they've lost so much weight on these marches, they are fed copper sulphate which destroys their kidneys so that they can't pee and then when they arrive at the slaughterhouse they weigh more and are in tortuous agony from a bladder that is stretched way beyond capacity.  Remember how you felt ladies if you ever had to go for an ultrasound and couldn't go to the bathroom but you had to sit there?  Well imagine if you felt like that and were forced to walk miles with a rope through your nose to keep you in line!  Google 'India leather cattle abuse' for more information about where much of the leather in the world market comes from.

Now fur, that is another story of agony and impacts even those who only succumb to that kids jacket with the fur around the hood.  I won't put it on here because I'd have to warn you and you wouldn't look at it anyway, but if you were to Google 'China fur farm' you could find a video that shows how they do it in China.  Let it suffice to say that the last image on the video I'm thinking of is a small 'raccoon dog' that has been totally skinned, paws cut off with garden clippers and as it's poor raw body is laying there on top of the pile of dead animals, it lifts it's head and looks into the camera and blinks its eyes.  I will have that image burned into my brain forever.  It is grotesque beyond belief.

So if you must wear something that looks like fur, whether a full length coat or a kids jacket with a fur trimmed hood or whatever, please do not buy something that came off a live animal.  Look for that synthetic label and then look again because the real deal might as well be dripping with blood.  Their suffering is unimaginable!


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## darroll (Jan 26, 2015)

If you want a real fur, buy it unless it is a snow leopard hide or any other endangered beast.
Wild mink love eating chickens and other farm animals.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Doubtful if snow leopard is even available.. but if it was, I would never even consider it.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Cookie said:


> ...........Then there is the seal slaughter that takes place every spring in the east coast here, which is dying out, but very disturbing. The seal fur is not wanted here but is exported overseas somewhere, maybe China?




Actually the seal skins that are taken every year now are pretty much warehoused in Newfoundland/Labrador because the EU is closed to Canada's seal skins.  The people in Europe, via their representatives actually had a referendum and subsequently banned the import except for any seal products that come from the Inuit.  Skins and such from native hunts are still accepted but not from the commercial sealers.  

A couple years ago, Harper made a big deal about getting an agreement from China to take them but that never materialized.  So Cookie, the government is currently buying those skins off the sealers these days and storing them (just in case a market does open up someday).  And in the meantime, there has been at least one court challenge by Canada, and costing at least $1,000,000.00, against the EU to force them to take a product that the people voted against.  Democracy in action!


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## Denise1952 (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> Yep, definitely better on the original owner.  As for your second image, don't let our jealousy betray our morals!View attachment 13586



Morals are becoming a thing of the past, or at least people's definition of them.  Just because man can rule over animals doesn't mean he has to kill off the ones there's no good reason to  I just feel animals were created for some other reason then to be tortured, abused and killed for no, good reason.  A fur for someone in the arctic, yes, a fur for someone to show how rich they are, no.  Glad you guys have this thread.  I'm learning better ways to eat every day.  My brother is a vegetarian now, and it's not too late for me to change.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> A lot of leather does come as a by-product of the meat industry in North America, but believe it or not, India is one of the largest sources of leather.  The cattle are bought up and then forced on long marches that are brutal beyond belief to where they are eventually slaughtered.  Their tails are broken, chili pepper or tobacco is rubbed into their eyes, anything to get them to get up and keep walking when they collapse from exhaustion and starvation.  Then because they've lost so much weight on these marches, they are fed copper sulphate which destroys their kidneys so that they can't pee and then when they arrive at the slaughterhouse they weigh more and are in tortuous agony from a bladder that is stretched way beyond capacity.  Remember how you felt ladies if you ever had to go for an ultrasound and couldn't go to the bathroom but you had to sit there?  Well imagine if you felt like that and were forced to walk miles with a rope through your nose to keep you in line!  Google 'India leather cattle abuse' for more information about where much of the leather in the world market comes from.
> 
> Now fur, that is another story of agony and impacts even those who only succumb to that kids jacket with the fur around the hood.  I won't put it on here because I'd have to warn you and you wouldn't look at it anyway, but if you were to Google 'China fur farm' you could find a video that shows how they do it in China.  Let it suffice to say that the last image on the video I'm thinking of is a small 'raccoon dog' that has been totally skinned, paws cut off with garden clippers and as it's poor raw body is laying there on top of the pile of dead animals, it lifts it's head and looks into the camera and blinks its eyes.  I will have that image burned into my brain forever.  It is grotesque beyond belief.
> 
> So if you must wear something that looks like fur, whether a full length coat or a kids jacket with a fur trimmed hood or whatever, please do not buy something that came off a live animal.  Look for that synthetic label and then look again because the real deal might as well be dripping with blood.  Their suffering is unimaginable!



All I can say is I hope those who are cruel are punished, and in the same way would suit me.  I've eaten meat for years, but the more of these discussions I see, the less I am willing to "help" them stay in business.  I think Planet of the Apes had it right in a lot of ways.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

darroll said:


> If you want a real fur, buy it unless it is a snow leopard hide or any other endangered beast.
> Wild mink love eating chickens and other farm animals.




So do snow leopards or other 'endangered' beasts suffer more than innocent mink and chinchilla and foxes and rabbits and......?  Say, how about tiger coats.  I'll bet you could approach a tiger farm in China and get them to sell you a skin from some glorious tiger that they've starved to death for the sake of it's bones.  Tigers in many areas of the world are in trouble, but this is a tiger FARM so that would make it okay right?


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## Cookie (Jan 26, 2015)

QS, the east coast snowstorm is scaring everyone. Maybe you just need a hot drink, cocoa with a splash of whisky maybe.  Mink coats are things of the past, let's keep them there.


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Well..... then I think I will go out and buy a mink...   lol!!




So what exactly convinced you that that's acceptable?  Besides the fact that it's legal.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

We aren't getting hit here in Chicago.... because I bought a snow blower this year


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## Cookie (Jan 26, 2015)

Take a look:

http://www.peta.org/


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Nope..... not clicking...


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## AZ Jim (Jan 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Nope..... not clicking...



Unfortunately I did click it, you did the right thing, QS..


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> We aren't getting hit here in Chicago.... because I bought a snow blower this year




We had the same thing happen the year before.  Bought a snow blower, minimal snow, hardly used the darn thing.  Then last year, the snow blower (it was second hand) crapped out on us, we had numerous snow storms with 6' drifts across the driveway and wound up having to buy a snow plow and then worried that we wouldn't be able to get out the driveway to go pick it up.  This year, the snow plow is on the tractor, we're ready and I was thinking yesterday when the sun was shining that maybe I should give the lawn a quick mowing!


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## Debby (Jan 26, 2015)

Hey Cookie, I gave your link a quick look.  I've gotten to the point where I find it very hard to look at how we humans treat animals but I still check out videos and photos from time to time, because it reminds me of why I've made the changes in my life.  Not that I'd every go back even without the 'refreshers' but it just reinforces one of the best decisions I've ever made.


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## Cookie (Jan 26, 2015)

Debby said:


> Hey Cookie, I gave your link a quick look.  I've gotten to the point where I find it very hard to look at how we humans treat animals but I still check out videos and photos from time to time, because it reminds me of why I've made the changes in my life.  Not that I'd every go back even without the 'refreshers' but it just reinforces one of the best decisions I've ever made.



Thanks, Debbie, I know seeing and knowing is painful, I just take quick glances now and then - I've been at this most of my life  - good to meet a kindred spirit.


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## Cookie (Jan 26, 2015)

QS - skip spending money on the mink coat and donate to a worthy cause (Peta) instead.  You will feel much better.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

I was looking at this one..


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

OR this one...


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## AZ Jim (Jan 26, 2015)

The devils gonna get ya QS!!


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## Jackie22 (Jan 26, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The devils gonna get ya QS!!



LOL....now QS, you know that NO good standing, tree huggin, proud Democrat wears mink.

I have to say though the first one is gorgeous.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 26, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> LOL....now QS, you know that NO good standing, tree huggin, proud Democrat wears mink.
> 
> I have to say though the first one is gorgeous.




Yes,  Pretty sure that's the one I'm getting..


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## Butterfly (Jan 27, 2015)

No furs for me.


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## Pam (Jan 27, 2015)

Nor me...  whenever I see anyone in a fur coat I am reminded of the saying 'all fur coat and no knickers.'


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## QuickSilver (Jan 27, 2015)

Pam said:


> Nor me...  whenever I see anyone in a fur coat I am reminded of the saying 'all fur coat and no knickers.'



Oh come on.... That's a georgeous coat..isn't it?


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## Denise1952 (Jan 27, 2015)

No, I've never been attracted to furs, I've always thought of the animal they kill to make them I thought it was pretty cool to have all that black leather when I was biking, but today I would never buy a leather jacket.  I'm still guilty of boots made of leather, and some shoes.  Well, I'm making progress anyway.  That pic of the tiger was so heartbreaking.  I've always thought the only thing wrong with the world is people, myself very, much included


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## Cookie (Jan 27, 2015)

All my shoes are made of man-made material,  mostly walking shoes and sandals (Merrell brand) I hardly use purses,  just little lightweight synthetic ones for keys and wallet. I prefer  micro fiber material for jackets which are very light, warm and better  temperature controlled and now there are so many attractive styles to choose from. My lifestyle does not demand dress up clothes at all, since I'm no longer working or going to fancy events.

I hardly ever see fur these days, it's completely looked down upon here.  Do people still get paint thrown on them - I think so.  I believe the fashion industry is trying to bring it back, although whose buying it, I don't know. A couple in my building have big fluffy fur coats and they look terrible in them, really outdated. Wearing a fur coat marks a person as being very unconscious and people will react negatively, I think.  I knew someone who wore had a big long mink coat, saying she had always wanted one.  I can't imagine a working person spending that kind of money on it.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 27, 2015)

Meh... to each his own... I love the look of fur..


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## AZ Jim (Jan 27, 2015)

I drink the milk, I eat the meat and I thank cows for all my leather products, so the animal did not die in vain like many of us do.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 27, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I drink the milk, I eat the meat and I thank cows for all my leather products, so the animal did not die in vain like many of us do.




All my shoes and purses are leather too..  waste not want not..


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## SifuPhil (Jan 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> All my shoes and purses are leather too..  waste not want not..



And you're in or near Chicago, right?

I would imagine you could just stroll through the slaughterhouses and pick whatever you want off the rack, so to speak ...


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## Cookie (Jan 27, 2015)

Too funny!  Thank you, thank you


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## QuickSilver (Jan 27, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And you're in or near Chicago, right?
> 
> I would imagine you could just stroll through the slaughterhouses and pick whatever you want off the rack, so to speak ...



You DO realize the Stockyards have been closed since 1971... but good attempt.... see,  when you try your hand at an insult, you really should check your facts.... otherwise it's just ineffective... and you come off looking inane.. lol!!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You DO realize the Stockyards have been closed since 1971... but good attempt.... see,  when you try your hand at an insult, you really should check your facts.... otherwise it's just ineffective... and you come off looking inane.. lol!!



And here I was shooting for in_sane_ - darn it!

I guess maybe the next time you're down in Ft. Worth ...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 27, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And here I was shooting for in_sane_ - darn it!
> 
> I guess maybe the next time you're down in Ft. Worth ...



you really need to look up the word  "inane"..  lol!!

As for leather footwear... Natural leather is really much healthier for your feet.. It allows your feet to breathe and therefore stay fungus and odor free.. I can always tell when I'm standing next to someone in man-made shoes.... Their feet stink.. and you can smell them.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> you really need to look up the word  "inane"..  lol!!



And perhaps you should look up the word "satire" ... 



> As for leather footwear... Natural leather is really much healthier for your feet.. It allows your feet to breathe and therefore stay fungus and odor free.. I can always tell when I'm standing next to someone in man-made shoes.... Their feet stink.. and you can smell them.



That used to be the case, I agree, but there are now breathable synthetic shoes easily available. They might not be the heighth of fashion but I've seen several running shoes that fit the bill. 

I'm far from innocent - I've worn my share of leather boots and coats and, on that one memorable weekend, leather pants, but now I prefer synthetics for their ease of care and superior abilities at water repellency, breathability and durability.  When I go into the woods for a hike I _much_ prefer wearing my Cabela's Gore-Tex jacket to my designer Italian leather jacket.


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## Cookie (Jan 27, 2015)

QS:  Merrell's are my favorite shoes, made of man-made, yet breathable material - the most comfortable shoes/boots/sandals I have ever worn and good to my feet.  Your feet will thank you.

       - take a looksee - what's not to love.

http://www.merrell.com


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## Denise1952 (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks Cookie, like Phil mentioned, my fave is Gortex, and I am loving those tennies, especially the high-top boots.  I get a pair each year (man-made) and they are so excellent.  I haven't gotten any of Merrills stuff, yet, but now I know another place to look denise


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## Cookie (Jan 27, 2015)

Grreat!  I've tried so many shoes and spend tons over the years and find my feet are only happy in Merrell's, so I'm a loyal customer. I think the material is Gortex, not sure. My new high tops are the best and the major tread on them is perfect for winter.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 27, 2015)

I fell for high-top tennies back in the 90s, to work out at the gym.  Course I don't do that now, but what I love is the ankle support, on tennies or boots.  I have a hard time finding tennies w/high-tops nowadays.  I like a lighter weight for walking etc.  but yes, I'm going to have lots of trails at my new home, way near by too!!  Thanks again cookie denise


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## Cookie (Jan 27, 2015)

My pleasure - happy trails!  G'nite


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## rkunsaw (Jan 28, 2015)

Just something to ponder. Animals are a renewable resource.

 Man made items are not just made by magic. They are made from materials from this planet. Some are renewable, many are not. A big percentage of synthetic materials are derived from oil. 

How many of you who tout "man made" materials actually know what your synthetic of choice is made from?


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## QuickSilver (Jan 28, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Just something to ponder. Animals are a renewable resource.
> 
> Man made items are not just made by magic. They are made from materials from this planet. Some are renewable, many are not. A big percentage of synthetic materials are derived from oil.
> 
> How many of you who tout "man made" materials actually know what your synthetic of choice is made from?



Holy Hell has frozen over rk..... I actually agree with you on this.. and had never looked at it that way.. but you are spot on.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 28, 2015)

QS I agree with you on many things. I don't see politics ever being one of them, but many other things.:lol: The devil can go ice skating.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 28, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Just something to ponder. Animals are a renewable resource.



Tell that to all the extinct ones.



> Man made items are not just made by magic. They are made from materials from this planet. Some are renewable, many are not. A big percentage of synthetic materials are derived from oil.
> 
> How many of you who tout "man made" materials actually know what your synthetic of choice is made from?



I suppose it comes down to the fact that whenever you create / manufacture something you need to consume resources. Oil isn't as cute and cuddly as a mink, so we tree-huggers quite naturally scream when the critter is clubbed to death, whereas oil? 

Feh ... oil doesn't have big round eyes or a pulse.

Oil has a longer predicted existence than some of these animals, so in the name of good stewardship I think it makes sense to give the nod to it instead of a species that might have only 50 years left.

Of course, the ideal would be to wear shoes and clothing made exclusively of hemp.


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## Cookie (Jan 28, 2015)

I've seen some pretty nice hemp and bamboo clothing and accessories. There are also products made of recycled rubber tires, including bags and shoes, belts,  etc.  There's a trend now to to use recycled sweaters or clothes to  remake them into attractive fashion items, and again a very good idea,  but a bit expensive. It looks like the world is moving in the direction of ethical use of resources and creative people are leading the way.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 28, 2015)

Phil, wouldn't not using leather be wasteful.  I mean we drank the milk, we ate the meat, shouldn't we likewise use the leather?


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## QuickSilver (Jan 28, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Phil, wouldn't not using leather be wasteful.  I mean we drank the milk, we ate the meat, shouldn't we likewise use the leather?



Absolutely we should.   I would like that there be a more humane way to slaughter cattle though..   I still will not stop eating meat or using leather goods.   I can be convinced to fore go the mink coat in favor of faux .. but not my Michael Kors handbag or shoes..  lol!!


----------



## Denise1952 (Jan 28, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Just something to ponder. Animals are a renewable resource.
> 
> Man made items are not just made by magic. They are made from materials from this planet. Some are renewable, many are not. A big percentage of synthetic materials are derived from oil.
> 
> How many of you who tout "man made" materials actually know what your synthetic of choice is made from?



RK, some people love animals so much, like me, that we don't want to eat them, or "wear" them.  It's really as simple as that.  I'm like Phil, way not perfect.  Many times I just don't think about it, and eat whatever.  I'm changing though, in fact much of the food I eat is vegetables and fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes.  I still eat eggs, butter, mostly soy, but I like regular milk too.  We recently cooked up a roast here, and I put ham in my beans yesterday.

If you or anyone else see's nothing wrong with wearing or eating animals then you have every right to do as you want.  I don't think less of you (as I mention in previous para.), it's not like you're doing it because you hate animals, you just see them for a different purpose 

Have a good one, we've got sunshine, and I was headed in to find out how the weathers going in the NorthEast


----------



## Mrs. Robinson (Jan 28, 2015)

Cookie said:


> QS:  Merrell's are my favorite shoes, made of man-made, yet breathable material - the most comfortable shoes/boots/sandals I have ever worn and good to my feet.  Your feet will thank you.
> 
> - take a looksee - what's not to love.
> 
> http://www.merrell.com



Cookie-Merrells are my favorite too! Sooo comfy. A little pricey (although not too bad) but they really last!


----------



## Denise1952 (Jan 28, 2015)

Mrs. Robinson said:


> Cookie-Merrells are my favorite too! Sooo comfy. A little pricey (although not too bad) but they really last!



Oh far out Mrs. R!!  I had never heard of them!  I'll spend a bit more on some things, like boots, but they usually last for years! hugs this a.m., denise


----------



## rkunsaw (Jan 28, 2015)

Denise, I don't think any less of you for not wanting to use animals for food and clothing as they were intended to be used. It doesn't mean you hate animals you just don't see them as useful. :lol:


----------



## Denise1952 (Jan 28, 2015)

I thought about that after I said it, like it would make a difference to anyone if "I" thought less of them, lol  Well, there was a time when I believed that's what animals were put here, as you already know, I'm changing my mind.  And I will never agree with inhumane killing of animals, or penning them up to spend their whole life in a cage producing babies.

I love how "some" at least, of our Native Americans killed only for food and clothing.  They honored and prayed over the deer for example.  I think a lot more people would be turned off to wearing leather/mink coats, eating meat if they actually saw what went on in the slaughter-houses, in the "farms" etc.

Again, it's really about what you believe to be right, or wrong.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 28, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Phil, wouldn't not using leather be wasteful.  I mean we drank the milk, we ate the meat, shouldn't we likewise use the leather?



IF we drink the milk we don't necessarily have to slaughter Bessie. Eating the meat, well, yeah, in for a penny in for a pound. 

I sort of do the same thing with little old ladies when I mug them - I take everything usable. It wouldn't be "green" to leave them with anything more than their skivvies.


----------



## Denise1952 (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh no, like, I just ran over Mrs. Pruitt!!  Oh well, bbq tonight, byob!


----------



## Cookie (Jan 28, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Denise, I don't think any less of you for not wanting to use animals for food and clothing as they were intended to be used. It doesn't mean you hate animals you just don't see them as useful. :lol:




Excuse me for asking but who decided on how they were intended to be used. Is there some user manual out there telling us what animals are intended for? Who wrote it? Whoever it might be, it can all be un-intended when no longer necessary, LOL layful:


----------



## QuickSilver (Jan 28, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Excuse me for asking but who decided on how they were intended to be used. Is there some user manual out there telling us what animals are intended for? Who wrote it? Whoever it might be, it can all be un-intended when no longer necessary, LOL layful:



I think someplace called Genesis 1:26


----------



## rkunsaw (Jan 28, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Excuse me for asking but who decided on how they were intended to be used. Is there some user manual out there telling us what animals are intended for? Who wrote it? Whoever it might be, it can all be un-intended when no longer necessary, LOL layful:



Mother nature decided through the process of evolution. Among animals there are herbivores, carnivores, and omnivores. Mother nature put humans in the latter category.


----------



## Cookie (Jan 28, 2015)

Thank you for clearing that up, looks like as omnivores, humans have a choice.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Thank you for clearing that up, looks like as omnivores, humans have a choice.




Yes, humans do have a choice. Another thread I just looked at reminds me of how some humans choose to destroy their liver with alcohol.


----------



## rkunsaw (Jan 29, 2015)

This was a study that was done in 1947.  They took laboratory animals and they had one group that was a pure vegan, nothing but vegetable material, grains, and fruits and vegetables and nuts; the other had the same basic diet with all the supplements, but they just added some veal powder, some ground up veal, some ground up bone meal and so forth, and the rats that were vegans, or vegetarians, lived 555 days, and the rats that rats that ate the omnivore diet with meat as well as the vegetables and grains lived twice as long, 1020 days.  So that’s kind of interesting, but people say “Oh that’s just laboratory animals, and they’re not spiritually elevated” and all that kind of stuff, so let’s keep looking here.

 There was a great study that was published in the Denver Post in May of 1996, a few years ago, and this study was done by the State Social Services in Colorado, and they identified all the 415 centenarians in the state of Colorado living at that time.  These are people over the age of 100, the oldest was 111, 415 of them, and they sent a social worker out to each one of the, gave them a hot meal to get their blood sugar up, and then sat there eyeball to eyeball and asked them all these questions on 5 pages of questionnaire.  They were looking for things they could point to and say this is why these people live to be 100.  They found out that two thirds of these 415 centenarians were women, one third were men, so you fellows can live to be 100 if you do everything right.  They found out that every religion, every culture was represented in these 415 centenarians, so no group, no religion, no race, no culture had a monopoly on living to be 100.  The only one that was 100%, they were all heavy red meat eaters.  Every one of them ate red meat twice a day; there was not a single vegetarian in the bunch.


----------



## Denise1952 (Jan 29, 2015)

Those are truly interesting stats RK, thing is, I for one didn't say it was healthier to be a vegen or vegetarian.  For me it's about my soft heart towards animals.  I don't know if there are any 100 year old Vegie eaters, I figure there might be, but honestly, I'm not sure I want to live that long the way the world is going.

I do know most of us don't need to wear minks, like this thread is really about, but it's a choice because they're being raised and killed for folks that want to wear mink.


----------



## Cookie (Jan 29, 2015)

Interesting post, rkunsaw, but could use more details - were these all people well off? Are there other criteria? During first world war, depression and second world war  meat was scarce. Present day studies have shown red meat in particular contributing to heart disease and cancer, although organic is available. 

Animal cruelty aside, is meat viable considering greenhouse gases and destroying eco-systems?

I know this thread was about mink coats, but to me it seems to be about our 'use and abuse' of animals, at the expense of the planet, which affects us all.


----------



## Debby (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I think someplace called Genesis 1:26



And if you read a little further (verse 29) you will see what God intended for people to eat.

'...*29 *Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. *30 *And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so....'


You will notice that God never said anything about eating the animals.


----------



## Debby (Jan 29, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> This was a study that was done in 1947.  They took laboratory animals and they had one group that was a pure vegan, nothing but vegetable material, grains, and fruits and vegetables and nuts; the other had the same basic diet with all the supplements, but they just added some veal powder, some ground up veal, some ground up bone meal and so forth, and the rats that were vegans, or vegetarians, lived 555 days, and the rats that rats that ate the omnivore diet with meat as well as the vegetables and grains lived twice as long, 1020 days.  So that’s kind of interesting, but people say “Oh that’s just laboratory animals, and they’re not spiritually elevated” and all that kind of stuff, so let’s keep looking here.
> 
> There was a great study that was published in the Denver Post in May of 1996, a few years ago, and this study was done by the State Social Services in Colorado, and they identified all the 415 centenarians in the state of Colorado living at that time.  These are people over the age of 100, the oldest was 111, 415 of them, and they sent a social worker out to each one of the, gave them a hot meal to get their blood sugar up, and then sat there eyeball to eyeball and asked them all these questions on 5 pages of questionnaire.  They were looking for things they could point to and say this is why these people live to be 100.  They found out that two thirds of these 415 centenarians were women, one third were men, so you fellows can live to be 100 if you do everything right.  They found out that every religion, every culture was represented in these 415 centenarians, so no group, no religion, no race, no culture had a monopoly on living to be 100.  The only one that was 100%, they were all heavy red meat eaters.  Every one of them ate red meat twice a day; there was not a single vegetarian in the bunch.





Could you provide a link to that first study please.


----------



## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Debby said:


> And if you read a little further (verse 29) you will see what God intended for people to eat.
> 
> '...*29 *Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.*30 *And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so....'
> 
> ...



Well maybe... but Texas BBQ wasn't invented yet...  lol!

Actually Debby..... He DOES..

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (_Genesis 9:3-4)

_One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:5-6)

and he beheld the sky opened up, and a certain object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Arise, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." (_Acts 10:11-15)

_Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said to them, "Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb. And you shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning. For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you." (_Exodus 12:21-23)__

Be careful Debby...

_Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (_Colossians 2:16-17)_


----------



## RadishRose (Jan 29, 2015)

Mmmm, I just enjoyed a juicy burger w/ some pickles for lunch!

WAIT... please step way from that paint can! ohhh nooo, please no rotten tomatoes!


----------



## AZ Jim (Jan 29, 2015)

Good for you RR.  Does the soul good doesn't it?  Man was not meant to live by healthy food only, we're all gonna die anyhow.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Some meat is healthier than others... Lamb is very lean... and believe it or not goat is leaner... and delish...


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## AZ Jim (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Some meat is healthier than others... Lamb is very lean... and believe it or not goat is leaner... and delish...



But...but....but...QS...I love the unhealthy stuff.  Can I have a pass to continue my reckless ways?  :lol:


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## Cookie (Jan 29, 2015)

Here's lookin' at you, kids,


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## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Of course.... one of my guilty pleasures... a full rack of ribs... dry rub..


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## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Here's lookin' at you, kids,
> 
> View attachment 13743




Lamb is YUMMY.... AND it's one of the God sanctioned meats!!  So it's Holy too!!


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## RadishRose (Jan 29, 2015)

Love lamb! My mother would roast a leg stuffed with garlic slivers for Easter and some occasional Sundays. So good.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 29, 2015)

I wouldn't even know where to get a lamb leg to roast.


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## RadishRose (Jan 29, 2015)

Spring Pricing on Arizona Raised Lamb - JH Grass Fed
www.jhgrassfed.com/store.php?news=2


meat — BUTCHER BOB'S
butcherbobs.net/category/meat/

do these work for you Jim?


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## SifuPhil (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Some meat is healthier than others... Lamb is very lean... and believe it or not goat is leaner... and delish...



Lamb is high in fat ...


----------



## AZ Jim (Jan 29, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> Spring Pricing on Arizona Raised Lamb - JH Grass Fed
> www.jhgrassfed.com/store.php?news=2
> 
> 
> ...



It's a start, thanks for the links.


----------



## RadishRose (Jan 29, 2015)

I heard buffalo and ostrich are very lean.


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## Debby (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Well maybe... but Texas BBQ wasn't invented yet...  lol!
> 
> Actually Debby..... He DOES..
> 
> ...




Okay, so we're going to get all Biblical here are we?  Okay, I can do that.  What I'm talking about is the INTENDED diet for human beings.  Plants and that's what the first man was told at the time of Creation. 

 What you are pointing out is that after mankind sinned and brought death into the world by that sin, then when God had seen fit to wipe almost all of creation out, he took man's wickedness into account (they're stupid and can't help themselves????) and permitted them to begin consuming the other creatures.  And remember that when He first 'demonstrated' a result of that sin, He also used it as a lesson, (i.e. I have to kill this sweet, furry little bunny because of you bozo's) even while He cursed all man and woman kind (Genesis 3).

So it's not like He said,"'Hey, I got this great idea for future barbecue ingredients for you humans...", it was more of a 'the wages of sin is death' kind of moment as in 'sin = death= suffering/blood/gore'.  

The next one Romans, is also after we 'proved how stupid we are' and the chapter actually is about how God accepts all of us so who are we to judge anyones relationship with God.  Also about how we all stand alone before God.    Or I could take a following verse out of context and show this:  '*21 *It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.'   Context is always critical to any dissemination of information.

The Acts verse is actually talking about how the Gentiles are now permitted to come to the Father and the Son.  Since food was such a pivotal issue to the Jews, he used a symbol that would get their attention and stick in their minds even when their entire upbringing had taught for generations that Gentiles were to be avoided.  An event worthy of 'myth and legend' as in a blanket lowered down from heaven with unclean things to EAT!!!

If you read the entire chapter 10 of Acts, you will see how it starts with a Gentile 'believer' named Cornelius having a need, moves over to Peter being told that God has made some things clean and not to refuse them, and then the Gentile believer shows up at his door and for the first time ever, Peter opens his door to a Gentile.

Exodus passage is again, after sin entered the world and we'd proved we were unreliable at best.

Why should I be careful QS?  I'm not a Christian believer anymore.    Besides I think what that verse is actually talking about is how each of those 'issues'  only points towards the coming Christ and how now the believer is joined to Christ and not to let anyone who is judging them based on any of various possible issues, draw them away from the Saviour out of embarrassment or distraction or whatever.  To remain strong and connected to Him and to the church.   He's also pointing out that it's not rules that save you, so trying to be saved through adherence to a bunch of man made rules isn't going to do it. (see all of Colossians 2) 

So actually the big difference in that last verse (Col.2) and the first verses in Genesis is that yours is talking about 'man-made rules' whereas Genesis is laying out what God intends for his creation.  Personally, if I was a Christian, I'd be inclined to look at how 'my God' intended for me to live and then go from there.


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## Warrigal (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Some meat is healthier than others... Lamb is very lean... and believe it or not goat is leaner... and delish...


Lamb is only lean if you cut the fat off. However, if you do that the meat is a lot leaner than marbled beef.
Aussie free range, grass fed meat, lamb and beef, is leaner than American style corn fed and food lot beasts. You do need to use your teeth when chewing the meat though.

As a side note, beef, lamb and pork, once the fat is discarded, contains less DDT and other pesticide residues than chicken and fish.


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## Warrigal (Jan 29, 2015)

Debby, look at human teeth. We are neither herbivores nor carnivores. We have the dentition of omnivores.
We're meant to be hunter/gatherers, taking advantage of whatever is available to us in the environment..
I'm just thankful not to have to be a scavenger or carrion eater.


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## RadishRose (Jan 29, 2015)

Warrigal, that sounds right to me!

 Also, our eyes look forward as all hunters eyes do. Eyes of the prey are on either side of their heads, to help them see the hunters sneaking up on them.

There might be exceptions.


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## Warrigal (Jan 29, 2015)

Eyes forward in our case is because we evolved from tree climbers. You need binocular vision if you don't want to misjudge distance and fall to your death. However it also makes it easier to catch live food.

We don't have the highly developed olfactory sense of a pure carnivore nor the acute hearing of a herbivore. We're a blend of the two and it is a very successful blend too.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Awhile back I got into Indian and Middle Eastern cooking... They use a lot of goat meat... at first like most Westerners, I wasn't too keen on trying it.. for some reason, but I did and it is really good.. AND goat is VERY lean..


----------



## QuickSilver (Jan 29, 2015)

Debby said:


> Okay, so we're going to get all Biblical here are we?  Okay, I can do that.  What I'm talking about is the INTENDED diet for human beings.  Plants and that's what the first man was told at the time of Creation.
> 
> What you are pointing out is that after mankind sinned and brought death into the world by that sin, then when God had seen fit to wipe almost all of creation out, he took man's wickedness into account (they're stupid and can't help themselves????) and permitted them to begin consuming the other creatures.  And remember that when He first 'demonstrated' a result of that sin, He also used it as a lesson, (i.e. I have to kill this sweet, furry little bunny because of you bozo's) even while He cursed all man and woman kind (Genesis 3).
> 
> ...




This verse from Genesis says it all




> Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.


_

Since plants dont MOVE... I guess he means animals...  He has given permission to eat animals.
_
You should be careful because the Bible tells us to NOT judge what other people eat... and you are just a tad Judgie  aren't you? .




> Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 29, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> ... There might be exceptions.



Like T. rex?


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Awhile back I got into Indian and Middle Eastern cooking... They use a lot of goat meat... at first like most Westerners, I wasn't too keen on trying it.. for some reason, but I did and it is really good.. AND goat is VERY lean..



So is kangaroo.


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## hollydolly (Jan 30, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Lamb is high in fat ...



absolutely it is....

http://www.menucoster.co.nz/public/news/which-meat-has-the-highest-fat-content


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## QuickSilver (Jan 30, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> absolutely it is....
> 
> http://www.menucoster.co.nz/public/news/which-meat-has-the-highest-fat-content



Ah.... then I stand corrected.... Of course that explains why it tastes so yummy and is so tender... won't stop me from eating it though as I have it so seldom... and when I do, it's usually in a curry..   It makes a stupendous Curry... as with all curries, you are not eating huge portions of meat.  It's well worth the few extra calories..


----------



## Debby (Jan 30, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Debby, look at human teeth. We are neither herbivores nor carnivores. We have the dentition of omnivores.
> We're meant to be hunter/gatherers, taking advantage of whatever is available to us in the environment..
> I'm just thankful not to have to be a scavenger or carrion eater.




I won't argue whether we are evolved to be carnivores or herbivores, although admittedly, a discussion on teeth, jaw strength, digestive enzyme types and digestive tract formation all points to a primarily plant diet.  We are most definitely opportunistic feeders.

I think that in this day of earths existence, even if one isn't inclined to go with the compassion aspect of forgoing animal products, it is critical to look at the environmental aspects of what including meat in our diets is doing to the planet.  From killing off oceans, to pollution of groundwater and air toxicity as well as the destruction of land and forests, meat consumption has been proven to be extremely problematic and less sustainable than a vegetarian diet.  Not only has it been shown that meat production is possibly the largest source of GHG, but there's also the question of lack of efficiency in using said land for growing animals instead of plants to feed the billions on this planet.

And in my last comment, I was showing that it's not particularly helpful to use the Bible as ones proof that God created animals for the express purpose of us using them as food sources and specifically pointing out that pulling a verse here or there out as proof and thereby taking them out of context isn't useful.  And as I said, it seems to me that if one is choosing to affix the Christian label to ones 'shirt front', then an examination of what God INTENDED for his creation would be the better way to make that decision.


----------



## Debby (Jan 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> This verse from Genesis says it all
> 
> _
> 
> ...




Taking verses out of context is unworkable in any discussion QS.  The verse you refer to comes out of Genesis 9 and is God talking to Noah after He has destroyed all life due to the sinfulness of man.  Because there are no crops to harvest, He makes the concession to Noah that now he is allowed to kill animals.  The beginning of that chapter also points to a change in how men and animals will interact from that point. 

'...*2 *The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea;...'

And as the Bible story suggests that a good deal of time has passed between the Creation story and the flood, it would seem that for a significant amount of time (several generations?) God's people were probably not eating meat otherwise why would God choose that time to give permission. And the fact too,  that God says to Noah that from that point on the animals will live in fear of humans seems to support the likelihood of a very different relationship with animals prior to that moment.  And a quick reading of that chapter will show that plants were mentioned in the context of having been first given to man at the time of creation.


And again, the second verse you mention actually was relevant to a different type of conversation than you are trying to use it for.  As I said before, that verse when taken in context, is direction that human made rules and traditions will not save you.  That what is required is faithfulness to Christ.


I always find it interesting that a suggestion that living compassionately is a good thing to do, is judged (notice that???) to be' judgey'.  I also find it interesting that defenders of meat eating (and particularly when it comes from Christian people) totally ignore Gods intention and they jump immediately to a concession made by God that is given because we've proven to be untrustworthy and weak.


----------



## hollydolly (Jan 30, 2015)

Whoever may feel they are right or wrong, there's no doubt this has turned into a fascinating discussion..


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## Debby (Jan 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> ......You should be careful because the Bible tells us to NOT judge what other people eat... and you are just a tad Judgie  aren't you? .




Well I haven't gone back and checked all my posts but I don't think I said anything 'judgie'.  I did express an opinion, just like you, like everyone else....

Can I tell you what I think?   I believe we are all on individual and unique journey's which are all heading in the same direction.  We're evolving to become the 'best' that we can be.   And we're all at different places in those journeys and it won't be just one journey but will take many lifetimes, many journeys.  I'm at a point in my evolution where I am compelled to decide whenever I possibly can, to choose what is beneficial to me and to the animals and even the environment. So I don't eat or wear animals, because to not suffer is definitely more beneficial for them.  And if I take myself out of the market, that is some number of animals over my lifetime, who will not be bred for and born to meet the supply need that I might otherwise cause.

 And that doesn't make me better than you or less than you, it just means we're at different places.....on journeys that are all heading the same way.  So how then can I judge because at one point I had the same beliefs and understandings as most here.  But while I will work very hard to not judge, I won't hesitate to give my opinion.  And I'll be polite about it while I do that.


----------



## oakapple (Jan 30, 2015)

Who would have thought that the OP's enquiry about a mink coat would have run to so many pages?


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## QuickSilver (Jan 30, 2015)

I have no problem with Thread-Morphs..  Most conversations go that way..  Someone says something, which reminds someone else about something and turns the conversation in a different direction..  This isn't a formal debate site where staying on topic is a must.   IMO it makes the forum more interesting as one never knows which way a thread will turn..


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## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2015)

Formal debate forums are boring - they're more interested in following protocols and rules than having a good time and possibly learning something new. 

I _like_ a little anarchy in my threads.


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## Josiah (Jan 30, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Formal debate forums are boring - they're more interested in following protocols and rules than having a good time and possibly learning something new.
> 
> I _like_ a little anarchy in my threads.



Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.





Well, sometimes the meat that is in the pot is a little tough to chew on, and I've found that a liberal dash of seasoning is just what the chef ordered. 

Besides, I'm one of the younger people here - it's in my contract that I'm allowed to be child-like.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 30, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.



Jenny say wha???


----------



## Josiah (Jan 30, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Jenny say wha???



Just quirky guy stuff.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Just quirky guy stuff.



Yeah *cough,cough,sniff,sniff, burp,pfffttt, grunt* - *GUY* stuff!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 30, 2015)

Don't forget to scratch....grab... and adjust...  lol!


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## Denise1952 (Jan 30, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Anarchy and quirkiness seem to be your favorite condiments and you sprinkle them liberally in your comments. Well we all enjoy the resulting je ne sais quoi flavor of your offerings.



I just wished I had a "Phil Schedule" so I could tune in and not miss a thing you say Phil LOL!!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I just wished I had a "Phil Schedule" so I could tune in and not miss a thing you say Phil LOL!!



You could always subscribe to "_Phil's Weekly Digest of Quirky and Anarchistic Quotes_"! 

You'll never miss a single pithy saying that pries itself from my lips, and if you order within the next 10 minutes you'll receive ABSOLUTELY FREE this amazing household tool -


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## oakapple (Jan 31, 2015)

The wife strangling machine?


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## SifuPhil (Jan 31, 2015)

oakapple said:


> The wife strangling machine?



You must shop the same stores that I do ...


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## Denise1952 (Jan 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> You could always subscribe to "_Phil's Weekly Digest of Quirky and Anarchistic Quotes_"!
> 
> You'll never miss a single pithy saying that pries itself from my lips, and if you order within the next 10 minutes you'll receive ABSOLUTELY FREE this amazing household tool -
> 
> View attachment 13779



I'm dialing now, hope I'm not too late.  Can I get it in pomegranate red??


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## Denise1952 (Jan 31, 2015)

OMG, breaking news!  Man in Pennsylvania goes for complete body "do-over" but at last minute decides to keep his head.

(the new avatar is to die for, I'm dying now, LOL)


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## SifuPhil (Jan 31, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I'm dialing now, hope I'm not too late.  Can I get it in pomegranate red??



I just checked with the guys in the warehouse - yep, we have one pomegranate red left. I'll have them put it aside for you, and thank you! 



nwlady said:


> OMG, breaking news!  Man in Pennsylvania goes for complete body "do-over" but at last minute decides to keep his head.
> 
> (the new avatar is to die for, I'm dying now, LOL)



That's from my "Green Rubber" period.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 31, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I just checked with the guys in the warehouse - yep, we have one pomegranate red left. I'll have them put it aside for you, and thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> That's from my "Green Rubber" period.



Is that what your, a, outfit is made of?  Man you could hang out in a lightning storm.  Hmm, something for that head though?


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