# Ohio Reopening - Bars, Young People, and Non-Compliance with Guidelines



## Em in Ohio (May 18, 2020)

Just as I anticipated, businesses and consumers ignore reopening guidelines.  No crowd control, no social distancing, lack of masks  - and Governor's announcements that businesses can be shut down and lose their liquor licenses.  

https://radio.wosu.org/post/dewine-...-not-following-covid-19-safety-rules#stream/0

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## CarolfromTX (May 18, 2020)

Congress shall make no law abridging the right of people to peaceably assemble. That's the first amendment in the Bill of Rights, which all of the politicians seem to have conveniently forgotten. We cannot stay on lockdown forever.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2020)

There are all kinds of laws regulating the rights of people to peaceably assemble, particularly when public safety and public interest are at stake.   Police and fire marshal restrictions come immediately to mind.  

Quarantine type restrictions have been around in this country since the early 1800s (yellow fever). It's not a new concept. 

I agree with you, @CarolfromTX, that we cannot and should not stay locked down forever. Probably not even for much longer. 

But we do need to reopen cautiously. Now's the time for our government to learn from countries ahead of us on the time line. What are they doing? What's successful and what isn't? 

Our own industries and retailers will find innovative solutions, too. Creative people will find ways to reopen various businesses AND keep people safe until this runs its course.


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## Em in Ohio (May 18, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> Congress shall make no law abridging the right of people to peaceably assemble. That's the first amendment in the Bill of Rights, which all of the politicians seem to have conveniently forgotten. We cannot stay on lockdown forever.



While I know that much of this rise in numbers is due to increased testing, that just indicates that the virus isn't under control.  I believe that you have issues regarding news media, so I encourage you to check multiple governmental and medical sources.  It is because of Americans *ignoring the guidelines* that the cases in the US went from a few in a few states to include every state in the US.  The virus could have been stopped in its tracks long ago.  Instead, the US down-played the threat and waited too long - and more importantly, too many of our citizens decided that their rights were more important than the welfare of our nation as a whole.  This short-sightedness only served to prolong the devastation.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-cases-covid-19-increasing-thousands-reopening/story?id=70720497

Texas has seen a steady rise in novel coronavirus cases and fatalities since reopening just over two weeks ago.

There are now 45,198 confirmed cases of COVID-19, the illness caused by the virus, according to the Texas Department of State Health Services. That is an increase of 1,347 cases from Thursday to Friday. The new numbers have not yet been recorded for Saturday.

Last Friday, the daily case increase was 1,219.

While the cases are still well below New York, the state with the most confirmed cases at more than 345,000, the steady increase shows that the curve has not yet flattened in Texas.

The state also experienced its highest and second-highest daily death toll just a day apart. On Thursday, 58 deaths were recorded in 24 hours and Friday that number dropped only slightly to 56, according to the health department. The total number of fatalities is at 1,272.

Last Friday, the daily death toll was 31.


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## CarolfromTX (May 18, 2020)

And your solution is to throw the Constitution out the window, and deprive people of the ability to earn a living. You can bombard me with statistics, but what scares me the most is that our freedoms are being taken away in the name of public safety. The mayor and city council of my town just decided to cancel the May elections (where they were probably going to be ousted) and move them to November. That's wrong.


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## Sunny (May 18, 2020)

I think there is an ugly side to this whole story, increasingly coming out as the quarantine becomes more and more annoying to people, and damaging to business.  The ugliness in human nature says:  "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few  eggs."  (That one originally came from our good buddies, the Russians.)

In other words, the people who are dying from this disease are mostly old folks, and people who were sick already anyway, so, well, it's too bad, but they will have to be sacrificed for the common good.  Keeping the business community afloat is the primary thing to concentrate on here.

And if a few young people get tossed into the volcano as well, that's just part of life. Lots of folks die of flu also.  So let's stop being crybabies about it, and concentrate on what really matters.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> And your solution is to throw the Constitution out the window, and deprive people of the ability to earn a living. You can bombard me with statistics, but what scares me the most is that our freedoms are being taken away in the name of public safety. *The mayor and city council of my town just decided to cancel the May elections (where they were probably going to be ousted) and move them to November. That's wrong.*


I agree that it's wrong.  Why not move to vote-by-mail for this election?


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## Em in Ohio (May 18, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> And your solution is to throw the Constitution out the window, and deprive people of the ability to earn a living. You can bombard me with statistics, but what scares me the most is that our freedoms are being taken away in the name of public safety. The mayor and city council of my town just decided to cancel the May elections (where they were probably going to be ousted) and move them to November. That's wrong.


Was this a special, local election or the primary?  I don't believe that locals can cancel a primary.

By the way, I didn't say we should throw out the Constitution - it's open to interpretation and that has changed over time.

I also didn't say that we should deprive people of the ability to earn a living.  My post was about socially responsible actions.


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## Ruthanne (May 18, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Just as I anticipated, businesses and consumers ignore reopening guidelines.  No crowd control, no social distancing, lack of masks  - and Governor's announcements that businesses can be shut down and lose their liquor licenses.
> 
> https://radio.wosu.org/post/dewine-...-not-following-covid-19-safety-rules#stream/0
> 
> View attachment 105092​


It was on tv last night and owner said they all came in at once and staff guided them to social distance after picture was taken.


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## Em in Ohio (May 18, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> It was on tv last night and owner said they all came in at once and staff guided them to social distance after picture was taken.


That's a little hard to buy given the long line of folks waiting to get into the open-air bar area.  I'm guessing that the photos being posted to social media and the Governor's quick response probably was a motivating factor.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> That's a little hard to buy given the long line of folks waiting to get into the open-air bar area.  I'm guessing that the photos being posted to social media and the Governor's quick response probably was a motivating factor.
> 
> View attachment 105122


As Rod Stewart said, "Every picture tells a story, don't it?"


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## Em in Ohio (May 18, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Just as I anticipated, businesses and consumers ignore reopening guidelines...
> 
> While I know that much of this rise in numbers is due to increased testing, that just indicates that the virus isn't under control. I believe that you have issues regarding news media, so I encourage you to check multiple governmental and medical sources. It is because of Americans *ignoring the guidelines* that the cases in the US went from a few in a few states to include every state in the US. The virus could have been stopped in its tracks long ago. Instead, the US down-played the threat and waited too long - and more importantly, too many of our citizens decided that their rights were more important than the welfare of our nation as a whole. This short-sightedness only served to prolong the devastation.


Update - More and more, as states start to reopen, problems arise because of people ignoring the guidelines.  Yahoo News has a developing story video entitled "cracking down on crowds," but no active link yet.  So, I did the following Google search "cracking down on crowds"

https://www.google.com/search?q=cra...e..69i57j33.8117j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If the link doesn't work, just copy and paste the title and run a search.  This virus will never go away if people can't control themselves!


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## In The Sticks (May 18, 2020)

It really needs to be managed locally.

Nationally, 1/4 of 1% have this (1,500,000 people.)
Heck, even if numbers double by testing and not by illness, that's still only 1/2 of 1%.

But that varies widely.  NYC certainly has a higher rate than my little county, or anywhere else in the nation.
It's a broad range of infection that requires a broad range of responses (or in some cases, no response at all.)


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## Em in Ohio (May 19, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> It really needs to be managed locally.
> 
> Nationally, 1/4 of 1% have this (1,500,000 people.)
> Heck, even if numbers double by testing and not by illness, that's still only 1/2 of 1%.
> ...


One million five hundred thousand people in less than five months. Do you remember when there were only a FEW people in the US with documented cases?  We are a highly mobile nation.  The virus is also highly mobile.

I agree that the controlled reopening needs to be managed on local levels - If people can't control themselves and can't be controlled by locals, then we will see armed guards/enforcers taking control. That's not an ideal situation in my opinion.


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## squatting dog (May 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> By the way, I didn't say we should throw out the Constitution - it's open to interpretation and that has changed over time.



WRONG, absolutely WRONG. If you don't know that this document was written to give you God given rights, then I pity you.


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## squatting dog (May 19, 2020)

I notice all the links you're putting up cover only one side of the political spectrum. Have you even peeked a little at what could be a different viewpoint, or are you just heading for the cliff without once questioning anything?


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## Em in Ohio (May 19, 2020)

> Em in Ohio said:
> By the way, I didn't say we should throw out the Constitution - it's open to interpretation and that has changed over time.


WRONG, absolutely WRONG. If you don't know that this document was written to give you God given rights, then I pity you. 


squatting dog said:


> I notice all the links you're putting up cover only one side of the political spectrum. Have you even peeked a little at what could be a different viewpoint, or are you just heading for the cliff without once questioning anything?



"The *Constitution*, then, spells out *four* paths for an amendment: Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state conventions (never used) Proposal by convention of states, ratification by state legislatures (never used) Proposal by Congress, ratification by state conventions (used once)"  It is open to _judicial interpretation._

If you actually read all my posts, you should be aware that I check multiple sources with diverse views from diverse places.  I'm unsure how you came to think that my links are political or to _which_ political point of view you attribute them to and/or believe that I'm representing.

This site does not allow political posts.  *This thread is about socially responsible behavior!*  If you wish to talk politics, you _may_ be allowed to send private messages.  I may or may not respond. If you don't approve of my posts, please feel free to block them.


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## squatting dog (May 19, 2020)

Big Government doesn’t have the authority to engage in any of the nine trillion parts (sarcasm on the number) of the massive shutdowns they have imposed. 
There is no Virus Exemption Amendment to the Constitution.
They just….did it.


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## Aunt Bea (May 19, 2020)

The 10th amendment of the Constitution grants governors/states the authority to manage emergencies within their state.

_The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people._


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## In The Sticks (May 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> One million five hundred thousand people in less than five months. Do you remember when there were only a FEW people in the US with documented cases?  We are a highly mobile nation.  The virus is also highly mobile.
> 
> I agree that the controlled reopening needs to be managed on local levels - If people can't control themselves and can't be controlled by locals, then we will see armed guards/enforcers taking control. That's not an ideal situation in my opinion.


Well, here's what I think about it...

As we'll both agree, the urgency behind the number of people who contract any disease is relative to the size of the population.  We are a nation of nearly 350,000,00 people.  If after 5 months, only 1/4 of 1% of us have contracted this, then that more supports those of us who believe this to be an overreaction that it does those who have allowed the media to whip them into fear.

I've stated the figures before: Swine Flu infected 1 in 6 Americans, this has infected 1 in 200.  Of course I'm not making a like-kind comparison between symptoms for those very few who are seriously affected.  But nearly 40x as many got the Swine flu.  So contagion rates for this are extremely low for any given flu season.

Given that, the response is an overreaction.  How can we be talking "National Guard"  with only 1/40th of the number of cases as other flus?  Answer: It has nothing to do with a "health crisis."  It _can't_.  That position flies in the face of common sense.

Normal flu seasons have infection rates in the tens of millions of people, and there's nary a peep, much less the hijacking of all other news.  The media truly does define reality, doesn't it?

edit to add:  The infection numbers are lies.  Grossly overstated.  Perverted by government.

"We will help you fight this thing" becomes "The more cases we report, the bigger the check."


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## Em in Ohio (May 19, 2020)

To whom it may concern:

Again, this thread is about non-compliance with orders meant to halt the spread of a virus, the significance of which you do not believe to be of any major concern.

So be it.

You claim you want rights guaranteed by the Constitution.  Yet, you deride the government, the media, the medical community, and posters on this site.  You claim they are 'God given' rights.  I don't recall God's signature on this man-made document.

Obviously, you and I see things differently.  So be it.

From a psychological perspective, please consider this:

"Confirmation bias refers to the tendency to look for evidence that validates our thoughts and beliefs while ignoring the evidence that questions them. It may lead people to maintain false beliefs or to give more weight to information that supports their beliefs than is warranted by the evidence."

"Selective attention can make us become close-minded. If we hear something that questions our beliefs or opinions, selective attention causes automatic rejection. We hear what we want to hear and believe what we want to believe,regardless of the credibility of the evidence."

You can believe what you want.  I don't have to agree with your beliefs. 
I can believe what I want.  You don't have to agree with my beliefs.

Free thought is the greatest freedom of all.


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## In The Sticks (May 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> To whom it may concern:
> 
> Again, this thread is about non-compliance with orders meant to halt the spread of a virus, the significance of which you do not believe to be of any major concern.
> 
> ...


A typical flu season lasts 5 months.

The CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9,000,000 and 45,000,000 illnesses per year since 1910.
You said "One million five hundred thousand people in less than five months" making this "highly mobile."

This flu has infected between 3% and 16% of the number of people that your average bug does over a similar time frame.
It is NOT highly mobile.  Compared to other flus, it moves at a snail's pace.

Those are the facts.


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## Em in Ohio (May 19, 2020)

Please address the thread topic or post elsewhere, perhaps under 'health/flu.'


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## In The Sticks (May 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Please address the thread topic or post elsewhere, perhaps under 'health/flu.'


II was responding to this comment you made in this thread:



> One million five hundred thousand people in less than five months. Do you remember when there were only a FEW people in the US with documented cases?  We are a highly mobile nation.  The virus is also highly mobile.


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## Em in Ohio (May 20, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> II was responding to this comment you made in this thread:


That was in response to someone else, I believe.  That's why I said, "To whom it may concern."


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## Butterfly (May 20, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> Congress shall make no law abridging the right of people to peaceably assemble. That's the first amendment in the Bill of Rights, which all of the politicians seem to have conveniently forgotten. We cannot stay on lockdown forever.



Congress didn't make any laws about the states' coronavirus response, i.e., closures, etc.  The matter of closures is all in the hands of the individual states, pursuant to their own state constitutions specifying their governor's rights and responsibilities in a state of health emergency.

The only thing the individual states' responses have to do with the US Constitution is that the US Constitution delegates all rights to the states that the Constitution does not specifically give to the federal government.  The federal government has no authority to order businesses in a state to either close or reopen.

So get bent out of shape with your own state government, not congress.


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## CarolfromTX (May 21, 2020)

I was quoting the Constitution. Butterfly, the Constitution trumps all the states' laws. You cannot prohibit freedom of assembly. Period. I think we were all willing to go on lockdown for a month, then for 6 weeks, and then it got old. Pretty soon it's going to be pitchforks in the streets.

Actually, my state government has done pretty well. They issued guidelines. State governors do not have the power to make laws and Greg Abbott knows that. He supported a salon owner who did not follow the guidelines.


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## Lewkat (May 21, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> Congress shall make no law abridging the right of people to peaceably assemble. That's the first amendment in the Bill of Rights, which all of the politicians seem to have conveniently forgotten. We cannot stay on lockdown forever.


Well, if you get sick and recover all well and good, but if you pass to someone who does not, have fun in jail.


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## In The Sticks (May 21, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> Well, if you get sick and recover all well and good, but if you pass to someone who does not, have fun in jail.


I know how this has been so overblown by the media to keep us in fear...but daggone it, the  levels of infection after 5 months have not yet reached the level of just a few weeks of a regular flu.

Is there no independent thought left?  

And this is not directed specifically at you, Lewkat.  But don't you think we're being had when some flu seasons see an infection rate of 1 in 6 and nothing's done, while this is 1 in 200 and the country has been shut down and is literally destroying lives?


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## Lewkat (May 21, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> I know how this has been so overblown by the media to keep us in fear...but daggone it, the  levels of infection after 5 months have not yet reached the level of just a few weeks of a regular flu.
> 
> Is there no independent thought left?
> 
> And this is not directed specifically at you, Lewkat.  But don't you think we're being had when some flu seasons see an infection rate of 1 in 6 and nothing's done, while this is 1 in 200 and the country has been shut down and is literally destroying lives?


I agree In The Sticks, but it seems as though these people are flaunting the guidelines.  Actually, I am seeing a lot of folks out and about, I am one, but I stay on my own property, and they are not wearing masks.  I have to figure they are well acquainted as they are kids who do need to socialize.  I just posted on another thread about the numbers being skewed and in the very worst ways, but make no mistake, if you do get sick, you are going to feel like dying.  I've had the flu in the past, and this does not resemble the flu in any shape form or manner whatsoever.  I am 87 with nodes on my lungs and cardiomyopathy, and I am amazed at my constitution.  I am being treated for the heart problem, yes and the nodes are very small and so far as we know we have no idea how long they've been there.  Otherwise, except for the usual old age bones that ache and what not I am in pretty good shape, so I am very lucky my friend.  Most who die have a pre-existing condition or even have died as a result of an accident  and because they were found to have the virus present post mortem it is counted as a COVID death.  Those are the things that skew the numbers and cause the media to scare the living daylights out of everyone.


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## In The Sticks (May 21, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I agree In The Sticks, but it seems as though these people are flaunting the guidelines.  Actually, I am seeing a lot of folks out and about, I am one, but I stay on my own property, and they are not wearing masks.  I have to figure they are well acquainted as they are kids who do need to socialize.  I just posted on another thread about the numbers being skewed and in the very worst ways, but make no mistake, if you do get sick, you are going to feel like dying.  I've had the flu in the past, and this does not resemble the flu in any shape form or manner whatsoever.  I am 87 with nodes on my lungs and cardiomyopathy, and I am amazed at my constitution.  I am being treated for the heart problem, yes and the nodes are very small and so far as we know we have no idea how long they've been there.  Otherwise, except for the usual old age bones that ache and what not I am in pretty good shape, so I am very lucky my friend.  Most who die have a pre-existing condition or even have died as a result of an accident  and because they were found to have the virus present post mortem it is counted as a COVID death.  Those are the things that skew the numbers and cause the media to scare the living daylights out of everyone.


I understand.  For us it's scary.

I'm so glad you survived it.  I agree that for a given demographic (you & me) it can be horrid.  We should take reasonable precautions.  I've cut back my shopping trips.  My several-times-a-week impulse trips are now limited to once a week.  But that's my responsibility to myself.  And I have the option to not get underfoot, since I don't work.

What's been done to everyone else is not reasonable, in my opinion.  I was reading a Web MD article on this, and they state that only 1 in 6 who _do_ get this have what they referred to as "serious symptoms." Right now the cure is worse than the disease, and I think people are pushing back on being controlled for minimal-to-no health benefit. They see an infection rate of 1/2 of 1% versus prior flu seasons of 5% to 15% and are feeling had. The reality and the rhetoric do not reconcile. This is taking a long-term destructive toll on folks. I hope they can recover.


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## win231 (May 21, 2020)

Some of the "cautions" about re-opening businesses are simply not realistic.  Others are downright asinine.
A restaurant or bar depends on crowds to make money & stay in business, so the 6-ft. social distancing ain't gonna work.  And, how do people eat or drink with a mask on?

I heard an equally silly regulation for schools opening:  "Desks 6 feet apart" & an empty seat between each seat on school buses.  The seats on a school bus are 1-2 feet wide.  So....now 12 -24 inches is a safe social distance?


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## Butterfly (May 21, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> I was quoting the Constitution. Butterfly, the Constitution trumps all the states' laws. You cannot prohibit freedom of assembly. Period. I think we were all willing to go on lockdown for a month, then for 6 weeks, and then it got old. Pretty soon it's going to be pitchforks in the streets.
> 
> Actually, my state government has done pretty well. They issued guidelines. State governors do not have the power to make laws and Greg Abbott knows that. He supported a salon owner who did not follow the guidelines.



With respect, during a health emergency, states can, indeed prohibit freedom of assembly.  The Constitution says
"Congress shall make no law prohibiting . . . ."      Congress didn't make any such law, but Texas declared a state of emergency, which gave the governor the power to issue executive directives which have the power of law until they expire or are retracted.

Read your Texas Government Code, Chapter 418, which sets out the emergency powers of government entities in Texas, including the governor.

Under a declared state of emergency like an epidemic, states DO have the temporary emergency power to prohibit freedom of assembly.


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## In The Sticks (May 21, 2020)

win231 said:


> Some of the "cautions" about re-opening businesses are simply not realistic.  Others are downright asinine.
> A restaurant or bar depends on crowds to make money & stay in business, so the 6-ft. social distancing ain't gonna work.  And, how do people eat or drink with a mask on?
> 
> I heard an equally silly regulation for schools opening:  "Desks 6 feet apart" & an empty seat between each seat on school buses.  The seats on a school bus are 1-2 feet wide.  So....now 12 -24 inches is a safe social distance?


My state "opened the beaches."

Stand in the sea breeze and stay 6 feet apart.


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