# Job Requirements. Trades dissed.



## []Doo[]Der (Dec 6, 2014)

Heard comments and recently read about 'Trades' people as somehow lesser qualified as contributors and lower on the 'pecking' order of working stiffs vs professionals.

Got me thinking. Back a half century or so the average tradesman ..let's say auto-mechanic, needed a spanner, 'feelers' by thickness to set plug points gap, a hammer and screwdriver. He could start a a helper and in three weeks with an experienced mechanic fix pretty much any car problem.
Now...hells bells they need to know more than a doctor did 50 years ago, just to diagnose the problem. Tools need a storage bin like a rocket scientist's lab. Technical testers and references and hi tech gadgets cost a fortune not to mention catalytic converters, timing lights and the rest of the paraphernalia. I'm of the opinion that a well trained auto-mechanic today needs more training and tools than a G.P. of 50 years ago.

Same with most trades today. An electrician? Hells bells ! they're specialists now as much so as doctors specialize. Fifty years ago they needed to know parallel from series, grounding, wire gauge and fuse size...now...don think 'bout it.

Technical requirements for the trades today exceed the requirements required by most 'professionals' back in the day. Yet, !!! some still look down on the profession of a tradesman. I don't get it. Well maybe I do, those that are vocally judgmental of today's tradesman have no real grasp of the changes in our life style,technical advances and job skills/requirements.

I bet some trades people could easily do a lawyers job....but it might be for less income and a loss of job pride..reputation..

On another matter, think of the jobs added to our society by technological advances, pretty overwhelming.


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## Debby (Dec 6, 2014)

I think it would be an interesting experiment to let any who choose to be snooty about their profession compared to the tradespeople, fix their own refrigerators or their cars or how about letting them build their own house from the ground up.


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## ronaldj (Dec 6, 2014)

well I guess I am just a lowly tradesman.....not worthy of conversation or piles of money.....but oh well swung hammer all my life and enjoyed the run and now retirement is even better fun.....


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## Vivjen (Dec 6, 2014)

My grandmother, who has been dead for 60 years, used to look down her nose at 'people in trade'. 
Good job she died when she did; I worked in retail for 40 years; the lowest of the low in her eyes!


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## SifuPhil (Dec 6, 2014)

Actually I've been seeing a lot of _praising_ of trades recently, to the point where they are questioning the automatic assumption that high school grads should go to college.

Mike Rowe, he of Dirty Jobs fame, has come out with some very impressive reasons to enter a trade instead of throwing away 4 years (or more) of your life, only to be left with no job and a mountain of debt. He has even started a non-profit agency to increase awareness of trades and to help youngsters get into the field.

I watched him give a TED talk and I think he was right about everything.


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## Lon (Dec 6, 2014)

You Just can't compare the trades with professionals. They are entirely different and require different skills and training. Each is dependent upon the other and it's not a matter of one being better than the other and there should be no snobbery attached to either. Each group also tends to socialize with their peers. A Oncologist today has had far more formal education and training in his field than the most experienced plummer. Does that make him a better person? Of course not just typically, much better compensated and a life style completley different than the plummer, and it's that difference in life styles that creates some of the envy and snobbery.


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## AprilT (Dec 6, 2014)

For the most part what Lon said.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 6, 2014)

My Granny always told every child, "be a welder", don't know why to this day.


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## Debby (Dec 7, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> My Granny always told every child, "be a welder", don't know why to this day.





Maybe because a welder's job can't be outsourced to China?


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## Geezerette (Dec 7, 2014)

Excellent topic! Agreeing with the interdependence. We certainly need the trades! I suppose the drs are so well paid because they deal in human life, but certainly need good plumbers, electricians, mechanics etc to maintain the quality of life. But none of that explains to my satisfaction how or why professional athletes & entertainers should scarf up such outrageous sum of money.


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## oldman (Dec 7, 2014)

Being an airline pilot is a pretty prestigious job. I used to think I wouldn't trade my job for any other. Then, I would visit my friend who owned a machine shop and he was a pretty good machinist. Some of the things that he made really impressed me and I would think how great that was to be able to make parts from a hunk a metal and have it look like it did when he was finished with it. I also had great respect for hotel maids. I spent as many as four nights every week for over thirty years in a hotel or motel. My rooms, with very few exceptions, were always excellently clean and smelled so good that I would normally leave a tip for the maid. 

I respect anyone that goes out and does his/her job to the best of their ability on an everyday basis, if they are able to do so. I am so thankful for what I was able to do and for those that are unable to work because of physical or mental issues, I wish them well and always felt privileged to serve them on-board my plane just as I did a movie star. We need people to do all the jobs that are being done in this country. No one occupation is deserving of more or less respect. We even need people to pick up our trash and I have been known to sometimes offer them a cold bottle of water on a hot day.  

Sorry to go off topic.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Dec 7, 2014)

oldman said:


> I respect anyone that goes out and does his/her job to the best of their ability on an everyday basis...



I've spent many years "stuck" between desk bound professionals and those performing manual labor.  My job is to protect the Engineer's stamp on a set of drawings... to make certain the design is not compromised during construction.  On large plant projects, I have to be knowledgable of earthwork, concrete construction, structural engineering, electrical, mechanical, HVAC, instrumentation, and the process the plant will perform to clean up either water or wastewater.  I have watched the engineering profession, over the years, seem to grow and ego whereby they are "better than" those who are tasked to construct what the professional has put to paper.  I've seen the quality of drawings and the constructabiiity of projects diminish, as more and more do design with zero practical experience.  Likewise, I've seen a severe and continuing lack of pride in the work produced by labor forces.  Do just enough to get from 8 to 5.  "Not my responsibility" infuriates me.  Work ethic.... showing up, showing up sober, showing up on time, showing up wanting to do work one can be proud of seem to be of an era gone by.

I've been asked to participate in a forum at our firm in a couple of weeks.  HR has determined we have 4 generations as part of our firm, each with varying goals and life experiences.  The forum is designed to garner feedback and input from all four of those generations to see how the lessons of one can be utilized to enhance the professional life of the others.


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## ronaldj (Dec 7, 2014)

grumpy old man, I worked on crews and ran crews both on small projects and large ones....we the "workers" seamed to always be at odds with "you" the paper  people...."looks good on paper" was one of our cries...."you can draw anything on paper." if you did not perform, (drunk lazy ect.) you did not last with my owner/boss or me, we did good work and in time I won most of the paper guys over and we made good jobs great, the project owners always praised us and in the 35 years of work never was without for long.....I can say we made some nice things and different things over the years...once a project manager drew something out on a napkin and asked if we could do that......you know we could and did and they loved it...our new manta was "we work best with napkin prints."  only one question about a set of drawing, and I have seen many strange things on them, but what or how much is a third of an inch, that was a measurement on one set.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 7, 2014)

I spent 39 years as a tool & die maker. We told the people in the plant; " If you have a problem you can ask an engineer, or you can skip that and come to the toolroom and ask, because that's what the engineer's going to do."


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## WhatInThe (Dec 7, 2014)

There is so much going here and it changes depending on the times. I think status plays as much of a role as job, trade or profession. I've learned to simplify things over the years to a is some one working/in a job for pay or are they a 'professional' career person living life vicariously through their job. Most people work to live, not live to work. Most wind up in a job for a paycheck(nothing wrong with that especially if they work at it & take pride in it as noted) Even many white collar professionals mail it in for pay  including doctors, lawyers and executives.

The problem now is that since post World War II many have been brought thinking they can do what they want/get the job they want. The focus shifted from a job, work & paycheck to a career. The problem is the economy & companies that used to provide a career are not as prevalent as before. Yet parents, high school or even entry level management promise or imply a career. 

The biggest thing now is that a high school education doesn't prepare a student for the variety of jobs and tasks it did in the past. Kids seemed to be categorized & steered into a career path before they are mature academically or mentally to make that decision. A high school graduate could probably do a lot of clerk work or math needed in an office or trade. Now everyone needs a calculator just to add or subtract numbers.

Before I dribble on I'd tell any young person learn the difference between a career/profession, a job for pay and what the employer wants-do they want someone to fill a job opening or do they want a lifetime professional employee. And make the resume and fill out the application accordingly.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 7, 2014)

Summed up in a term I and most my age can understand is the term, work ethic.
Seems less around today, but then we all think the 'kids' have lost 'something.

Teachers I think are my main life experience with job performance. There were soooo many of differing dedication and performance over my years of schooling. I expect most professions share that trait,some very good,dedicated,satisfied only with perfection or the best they are capable of and then those that want quitting time to come.


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## halalu (Dec 7, 2014)

I started clerical in High School, I have worked on telegraph, key punch, the first computers and have pretty much kept up with most computer applications required for an office. I have seen the people before me having to cope with technical changes. I saw the frustration, tears and reality of change. I was one of the younger folks who they resented and didn't like. The older people did not want to train or teach anyone what they knew because they believed that modern technology would take away jobs. Now here I am still skilled and more qualified than ever but because I am now old. I am being classified as someone who can' be trained or can't learn. We all know that no matter what the job  requires the person doing the job is as good as they are trained to be. If they don't get all the facts and training needed to do a good job then more than likely the job will not be done well. Sometimes the time it takes me to study and get all the information I need outside of training is what leads to losing a job or causing someone to be hostile. 
I reside in an aircraft job town. People are in and out of jobs all the time. Laid off, back to work nothing seems to be stable employment for them anymore. Pension money is becoming survival til the next job money. Most people want to hold out and only accept jobs that pay big money and they end up broke with no savings and no unemployment. Things have changed. We are not all going to retire and be able to live in the style that we are accustomed to.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 7, 2014)

Once at work we were sitting around discussing our IT roles.  One UNIX admin was telling us how skillful and important he was to the company, in his mind he was indispensable.  

I had enough after listening to a 20 minute lecture.  I said, 'You know you sit here and talk about your skills but let's put it into perspective.  My father was a mason contractor for 40 years and only had a 9th grade education.  He has built things all over this area, you can drive by them daily and enjoy the beauty and most will last long into the next century.  What you're doing here today won't mean crap in 5 years, you will go on and no one will remember one thing you've done.  The field moves on and it's like the fastest gun, there's always someone faster coming to town.  So don't get too wrapped up in yourself, do something that will last and people will remember you.'  

They are getting away from the need for my father's skills but it's still the 2nd oldest profession (behind prostitution) known to man and it's becoming a lost art.  More prefab and mechanized methods are replacing true skills.  I learned the trade from him and although I am somewhat rusty, I can still lay a brick plumb and level and it gave me an eye for beauty.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 7, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Once at work we were sitting around discussing our IT roles.  One UNIX admin was telling us how skillful and important he was to the company, in his mind he was indispensable.
> 
> I had enough after listening to a 20 minute lecture.  I said, 'You know you sit here and talk about your skills but let's put it into perspective.  My father was a mason contractor for 40 years and only had a 9th grade education.  He has built things all over this area, you can drive by them daily and enjoy the beauty and most will last long into the next century.  What you're doing here today won't mean crap in 5 years, you will go on and no one will remember one thing you've done.  The field moves on and it's like the fastest gun, there's always someone faster coming to town.  So don't get too wrapped up in yourself, do something that will last and people will remember you.'
> 
> They are getting away from the need for my father's skills but it's still the 2nd oldest profession (behind prostitution) known to man and it's becoming a lost art.  More prefab and mechanized methods are replacing true skills.  I learned the trade from him and although I am somewhat rusty, I can still lay a brick plumb and level and it gave me an eye for beauty.



True that. Makes me think of the prima donna athletes and the big payouts. Good for them if they can get them big bucks $$$, but, what do they leave behind? Possibly a record. Strange how much emphasis is put on a game by millions when the result isn't as much as a fly speck in meaningful achievement or history.
But when all issaid and done, that big game today that crowds go wild over means nothing tomorrow IF it did today.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 8, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Once at work we were sitting around discussing our IT roles.  One UNIX admin was telling us how skillful and important he was to the company, in his mind he was indispensable.
> 
> I had enough after listening to a 20 minute lecture.  I said, 'You know you sit here and talk about your skills but let's put it into perspective.  My father was a mason contractor for 40 years and only had a 9th grade education.  He has built things all over this area, you can drive by them daily and enjoy the beauty and most will last long into the next century.  What you're doing here today won't mean crap in 5 years, you will go on and no one will remember one thing you've done.  The field moves on and it's like the fastest gun, there's always someone faster coming to town.  So don't get too wrapped up in yourself, do something that will last and people will remember you.'
> 
> They are getting away from the need for my father's skills but it's still the 2nd oldest profession (behind prostitution) known to man and it's becoming a lost art.  More prefab and mechanized methods are replacing true skills.  I learned the trade from him and although I am somewhat rusty, I can still lay a brick plumb and level and it gave me an eye for beauty.



So true. Part of the instant gratification society. The mechanization has made people lazy because they don't have to think about their work/project or use a hand tool efficiently. I notice many trades people have gotten so lazy they don't even want to take the time to plug in a cord for a drill. It must be a cordless drill. Some won't even use a screw driver anymore,. It must be a cordless drill with a screw driver bit. I still remember the had crank or hand impact drills/drivers. Many are no better than an artist who has to paint by numbers.

I will admit that the productivity and time requirements on trades people as others has gotten out of control. It's a quantity, not quality game now.


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