# ISIS Can't Behead But Saudi's Can?



## Debby (Oct 16, 2014)

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arab...y-sheikh-nimr-al-nimr-sentenced-death-1470148
"...Saudi Arabia has sentenced to death a Shi'ite Muslim cleric who was at the forefront of the country's pro-democracy protests in 2011 in a move that will likely rekindle sectarian divide in the Middle East, sending shockwaves through the Shi'ite community....A prosecutor said last year that he was seeking to convict the cleric for "aiding terrorists" and "waging war on God", which carry the death penalty by crucifixion. The gruesome punishment involves beheading followed by a public display of the decapitated body."




Since this Saudi cleric was calling for democracy for that country and now his government who is on a 'best friend' list with the USA who just recently started bombing Iraq and Syria because beheading people is just going tooooo far.....what are the chances that they will go to war with the Saudis?  

Only behead and crucify people if the American administration is your friend?  Is that the moral of the story?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2014)

:dunno:..........Maybe


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## Debby (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm going to say this right up front.  I didn't post this here to get in a fight with any patriotic Americans.  I put this here because I think it's important for us to all realize that we, you and me and our families and the people who vote, are tools that are used by politicians and corporate heads.....to get what they want (everything) and they will tell us what we need to hear to feel good.  And we happily munch on the crumbs that fall to the floor and think 'how lucky we are'.  So the next time the government (including mine) tell you we're in this 'war' to spread democracy around the world, think about this man who was a peaceful protestor trying to spread democracy in his country!

Governments can't be trusted.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 16, 2014)

Every country has its laws. We may not agree with them as they may not agree with ours. But, executing a man who has been convicted according to his country's laws in a manner according to those laws is totally different than what ISIS is doing.

I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the difference.


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## BobF (Oct 16, 2014)

Thank you rkunsaw, that is exactly what I was going to post.

Being tried in courts that satisfy a countries laws is far different than just having your had cut off by a bunch of people that are not following any published rules at all.   What were the crimes of those recently beheaded in Iraq area?    Many of these radicals are from all parts of the world, including the US.   Countries around the world should refuse re entry to those that have gone over there and now want to return.


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## oakapple (Oct 16, 2014)

Saudi Arabia has had brutal  rules and punishments since forever. This man was a supporter of the idea of democracy. How exactly is that a crime? He is not a murderer, but will still be horribly executed if they get their way.If governments become no better than terrorists/murderers what is that saying? Even if was proved that he had aided terrorists [although they like to label anyone they don't like with that name] then prison should be the punishment.I think it's a savage country.


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## Debby (Oct 16, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> Every country has its laws. We may not agree with them as they may not agree with ours. But, executing a man who has been convicted according to his country's laws in a manner according to those laws is totally different than what ISIS is doing.
> 
> I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the difference.




Oh I see the difference that you're pointing out entirely.  And I would turn that around and remind you that America made a huge (red-line) stink about their theory that Assad used chemical weapons but America didn't mind sending chemicals to Saddam Hussein and when he used them on the Kurds, did nothing.  The point that you are missing is that America is only too willing to step in and bomb the crap out of anybody for whatever useful excuse comes along if it's in American interests to do so, but will turn a blind eye when it suits.  That's the difference.  It's hypocrisy on a global scale. And particularly when you factor in the endlessly useful excuse that 'we're just spreading democracy and freedom around the world' and 'they hate us for our freedoms' which in itself has been used to again, go in and devastate regions.   And I think the fact that the average American is willing to not see that is a sad situation that is leading us to the brink of war again.  



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

From this link:  http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4568179

Declassified U.S. government documents show that while Saddam Hussein was gassing Iraqi Kurds, the U.S. opposed punishing Iraq with a trade embargo because it was cultivating Iraq as an ally against Iran and as a market for U.S. farm exports.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2014)

So what is it exactly you are looking for?  In the way of debate I mean..  Or is it just your daily Anti-American Bash..??  Feel better now?


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## BobF (Oct 16, 2014)

Oakapple, I do agree that many of the middle east countries are savage compared to the European style countries like we live in.   The difference in this discussion was much more simple, the so called religious idea of ISIS or Saudi Arabia, a nation recognized.    

ISIS is, to me, a very bad idea.   Saudi Arabia is a bit better in that they did have court and judgements.   The nations that fought to turn Iraq into a constitutional country, rather than a religious country, must be very disappointed that we have left way too soon and allowed a religion to really take over and now we have a religious war involved
there.

I feel we should have had military and government advisory elements there for some time yet, as we did in Europe, Japan, and Italy, after the end of WWII.    In time those countries have shown us they understood democratic governing and have pretty much avoided dictatorships.    Even Russia has changed from a cruel communist dictatorship to something similar to a democracy.    China also has changed from a cruel communist form of 'poverty for all' government to their current form of prosperity for the willing and hard working but still operate with a less restrictive type of communist style government.


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## Debby (Oct 16, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> So what is it exactly you are looking for?  In the way of debate I mean..  Or is it just your daily Anti-American Bash..??  Feel better now?




Until the US quits fomenting trouble around the world, there will always be fodder for discussion.  Talk to your representative if you find it tiresome.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2014)

Debby said:


> Until the US quits fomenting trouble around the world, there will always be fodder for discussion. Talk to your representative if you find it tiresome.



There's and easier way for me to avoid the tiresome Debby.... and it's NOT talking to my Congressman or Senator..  lol!!!


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## Debby (Oct 16, 2014)

I will say this, in researching about the gassing of the Kurds in 1988 or thereabouts, it quickly becomes evident that corporations in France and Germany were equally to blame for those deaths.  Instead of prohibiting the export of the chemicals and development equipment used to make the stuff, those governments were silent until after the fact.  However, I also came across a link that says that America sent Saddam Hussein a billion dollars only six months after the Kurdish people were almost wiped out in Iraq.  So there is complicity in abundance on many fronts.  

As I was reading the link, I couldn't help but start crying.  From the link:  "...Babies still sucked their mothers’ breasts. Children held their parents’ hands, frozen to the spot like a still from a motion picture. In the space of a few hours 5,000 people had died...." http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn



Not clever at all QS.  Because silence only results in more pain and more suffering.  



Maybe this is why governments are trying to control the Internet.  Without it, they can write history however they want and with it, the light can shine into those shadowy lies and expose them for what they are.  In this instance, it would likely read as, 'it was all Saddam Husseins fault because he was a monster and we didn't know'. Ha!


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## QuickSilver (Oct 16, 2014)

> Not clever at all QS. Because silence only results in more pain and more suffering.



You misunderstood my meaning Debby.    I talk to my Both my Senators and my Representative all the time, and always let them know how I would like them to vote on an issue..   It was not their "tiresomeness" I was speaking of.


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## BobF (Oct 16, 2014)

For those that think the US is meddling around all over the world, take time to research and find those places where the US stepped in and changed things to unwanted things.   For the European events the US and others were invited to help out in Bosnia area and even had UN help with that after a short while.   In Africa and middle east, Iraq, Kuwait, and such, there were UN calls to do so.    There were other events that the US took part in that were short term, island nations for example where a revolution was going on.   I don't know how the US got involved, but only for few days.

If the US was not so involved with trying to maintain peace in this world there would be a lot more areas completely destroyed for those greedy and selfish power groups that rise out of rebellions on the innocents.


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## oakapple (Oct 17, 2014)

Let's [for the moment] take out any involvement by the US or the UK or anywhere else's government meddling. That's another debate.This is  a debate about why is Saudi Arabia worse  or the same as IS.Bob, I do understand the difference, IS is a bunch of murderous , often ignorant and cruel thugs, enjoying imposing their own twisted version of Islam on several countries to try and get a 'Caliphate'. SA is a country run by murderous and cruel 'royalty' who enjoy imposing their own will on their own people.
Any type of opposition there is ground into the dust by savage punishments and death. I believe the point that Debby was making is a valid one.Why do we accept one and not the other?This thread should not get personal, it's a debate about ethics and morals.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 17, 2014)

The difference SHOULD be obvious to anyone who thinks about it.  ISIS is not a government.  It's a band of marauders reeking havoc.   The Saudis are an official and recognized monarchy, which is lead by the king and his ministers. It is governed by sharia law.. We don't agree with it, but we also have capital punishment.. So I'm not sure what the post is about?  Is it to infer that America should attack Saudi Arabia?  OR is it to say that we should leave ISIS alone and let them do as they please because we let Saudi alone?   OR... which is my contention, is just to take a pot shot at the USA.. for the pleasure of calling us hypocrits..  And the later is what has grown tiresome.


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## oakapple (Oct 17, 2014)

QS I do see a difference of course, but it's the debate about how the world sees a group who would like to be in charge, and another group who ARE in charge already, even though they employ similar methods.Semantics, I know, but interesting points.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 17, 2014)

oakapple said:


> QS I do see a difference of course, but it's the debate about how the world sees a group who would like to be in charge, and another group who ARE in charge already, even though they employ similar methods.Semantics, I know, but interesting points.



I completely and respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the intent of the OP.   It's was not a posed for a debate... It made a statement and an accusation against the US..  Which by the way MOST of this posters threads do in some form or another.  What is the debate here?  Seriously..  Should we debate if the US should invate Saudi Arabia because they practice Sharia Law and behead people?   Should we debate if we should leave ISIS alone and let them run rampant, beheading and capturing territory as they go because we are not invading Saudi?   Or should we all jump on the OPs bandwagon and hang our heads and lament the hypocrisy of dealing with the Saudis while bombing ISIS.. Which is what I fully believe would give the OP a shiver of delight.   I am quite sure the realm of international politics and the impliction of any actions in the complicated Middle East is well beyond the scope of most of us here.. Including the OP.    I am fairly new here, and engaged this poster before realizing most American's here had very little if anything to say to her..  I will join their ranks now.


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## BobF (Oct 17, 2014)

Debby said:


> Until the US quits fomenting trouble around the world, there will always be fodder for discussion.  Talk to your representative if you find it tiresome.



Oakapple, it seems pretty direct to me.   I think my response was OK and not being personal at all.   I was just responding to such actions and this comment.   Far too many keep trying to put all the blame on the US, and other countries, for what a few countries. or philosophies, are doing to so many others.   Right now the US has a very introverted mind set in charge and we are now no longer working as a leader for the world.   Just limping along hoping nothing gets out of control and destroys all the good that came out of the after WWII events.   It appears that now the world peace is being challenged and destroyed by a out of control religious movement.


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## Debby (Oct 17, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> The difference SHOULD be obvious to anyone who thinks about it.  ISIS is not a government.  It's a band of marauders reeking havoc.   The Saudis are an official and recognized monarchy, which is lead by the king and his ministers. It is governed by sharia law.. We don't agree with it, but we also have capital punishment.. So I'm not sure what the post is about?  Is it to infer that America should attack Saudi Arabia?  OR is it to say that we should leave ISIS alone and let them do as they please because we let Saudi alone?   OR... which is my contention, is just to take a pot shot at the USA.. for the pleasure of calling us hypocrits..  And the later is what has grown tiresome.




So then it sounds like you're saying that if a government is doing these kinds of terrible things, it's okay?  Idi Amin would be an example of that thinking as would Pol Pot in Cambodia, Hitler and I'm sure if I put my thinking cap on, I could come up with a couple more....so then the next question is, why does humanity differentiate?  Whomever is being killed by whomever, they still suffer in ways that we can't imagine.  According to the link below, the US does more for human rights in China than any country and yet no one seems to be talking to the Saudi's in any way that I can tell, neither the US or the EU countries.....    I think that what we're talking about here is friendship 'requiring' looking the other way.

The reason for the post...I felt like talking about it.  I'm an idealist I guess, and when I see injustice, suffering, elitism that causes harm, that sort of thing, then I think it's important to talk about it.  If you ignore stuff nothing ever improves.  Open the putrefying sore up to air and sunshine and healing can come.  

You need to quit taking everything as a personal slap QS.  Just accept that your government, like every other government is made up of human beings who have their own agendas and we are a minuscule part of their story.  It's like these people are playing their video games, their virtual reality games of power and they're moving pawns around and shuffling things and weapons here, billions there and if a million people get killed by the despot of the moment, oh well.  Your government, my government, the UK's, France, Cambodia, Thailand.....  

The impression I get is that far more Brits have recognized their own country's history of imperialism, than have Americans and if I'm wrong on that folks, please do correct me.  And just so you don't think I'm picking on you, I'll point out my country's last ten years of what appears to be deliberate environmental destruction as a result of getting rid of our climate scientists and gagging the government scientists that are left who would advise caution on our tar sands, etc. (if they were allowed).  I'll point to my own governments complete disregard for the Ukrainians who are being blown up by their own government and the 2100 Palestinian civilians who died a few months ago.  I got a list of what I consider 'bad acts' by my own government that's as long as my arm.  So I'm not picking on you and I wish you could understand that.  It's just that I know if I post that Stephen Harper got rid of 90% of the regulations protecting the waterways in our extreme north, there will likely be little interest in striking up a conversation.  But we all know and care about ISIS and the Saudi's affect all of us 'at arms length', so this thought crossed my mind when I read the original article. 

And gee whiz, the peace protester cleric in question whom they are going to behead is the antithesis of everything that Islam seems to stand for these days (my apologies if there are any Muslims in the crowd).  At the very least we could try and muster up a little human sympathy and recognition for both his commitment to peace and the suffering that it will bring to him.  This is a thought that only popped into my head as I've been writing this (shame on me!) as I think even I was more caught up in the inequity of 'who's doing it' you know.  

http://www.theatlantic.com/china/ar...us-help-advance-human-rights-in-china/276841/

Sorry for being so long winded.  I was just on a roll...


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## Warrigal (Oct 17, 2014)

Saudi Arabia is the source of the cancer that is muslim extremism.
ISIS and Al Qaeda are but secondaries.

You can cut out the secondaries one after the other but unless the primary cancer is dealt with, more will break out elsewhere.


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## Debby (Oct 17, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Saudi Arabia is the source of the cancer that is muslim extremism.
> ISIS and Al Qaeda are but secondaries.
> 
> You can cut out the secondaries one after the other but unless the primary cancer is dealt with, more will break out elsewhere.




I have read that the fundamentalist terrorists get a lot of their funding from Saudi Arabia and Qatar.  Turkey also.  But I think you're right, the Saudi's are a large part of the problem.


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## Warrigal (Oct 17, 2014)

They get more than money from the Saudis. Saudi Arabia funds madrassas overseas that teach wahhabism.



> The most extremist pseudo-Sunni movement today is _Wahhabism _(also known as _Salafism_). While many may think that _Wahhabi_ terror is a recent phenomenon that has only targeted non-Muslims, it will surprise many to know that the orthodox Sunni Muslims were the first to be slaughtered in waves of _Wahhabi _massacres in Arabia hundreds of years ago. One only has to read the historical evolution of Saudi Arabia to know the gruesome details of the tragedy – a tragedy in which thousands of Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims perished at the hands of _Wahhabi_ militants.
> 
> The extremist interpretations of _Wahhabism_, although previously confined to small pockets of people in Arabia, has survived to this day under the protection, finance, and tutelage of the Saudi state religious organs. This has transformed _Wahhabism_ – and related _Salafi _groups that receive inspiration and support from them – from a regional to a global threat to be reckoned with by the world community. To a _Wahhabi-Salafi_, all those who differ with them, including Sunni Muslims, Shi’ite Muslims, Christians, and Jews, are infidels who are fair targets.
> 
> http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm


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## Davey Jones (Oct 18, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> Every country has its laws. We may not agree with them as they may not agree with ours. But, executing a man who has been convicted according to his country's laws in a manner according to those laws is totally different than what ISIS is doing.
> 
> I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the difference.





*You got THAT right.
*


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## Debby (Oct 18, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> They get more than money from the Saudis. Saudi Arabia funds madrassas overseas that teach wahhabism.




I didn't know those facts Dame Warrigal.  Thanks for that.  I've heard the word 'wahhabism' but never paid it much attention but it sounds like it's integral to a lot of the issues of the region.  I'm telling you, the more I read and get to know, the more I realize how much there is to know.


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## Debby (Oct 18, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> ( _Every country has its laws. We may not agree with them as they may not agree with ours. But, executing a man who has been convicted according to his country's laws in a manner according to those laws is totally different than what ISIS is doing._
> 
> _I feel sorry for anyone who can't see the difference.) - _*You got THAT right.*




I would rather you and rkunsaw spared a little sympathy for those who suffer unjustly.  Because EVERYBODY knows that other countries have different laws but that apparently doesn't stop my government and yours from diplomatically trying to pressure China to change so it would seem that our officials don't have the same attitude as you two.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 18, 2014)

!!


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## Happyflowerlady (Oct 19, 2014)

Here is another example of what seems to me like senseless execution. This woman was convicted of doing nothing more than getting a drink of water from a well that she was working near with several other women. 
Because she was a Christian, and the others were Muslim, it was against the law for her to drink out of the well.  She was beaten, and then has been in jail for over a year, and it looks like she will now be executed for this simple mistake. 
It is not like she hurt anyone, or did anything that caused any harm anywhere. She didn't steal the water, she just drank a cup of it. The death penalty seems pretty harsh to me for such a little crime, assuming that you can call drinking water a crime. 

http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com...drank-water-from-a-well-reserved-for-muslims/


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## Warrigal (Oct 19, 2014)

Here is another account of this case, with details of the arguments presented at her appeal.

http://www.crossmap.com/news/pakist...despite-serious-legal-loophole-in-trial-12917


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 20, 2014)

Let's try not to lose our heads over this matter...


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## Justme (Oct 20, 2014)

The US still has capital punishment in some of its states, so has no moral high ground in this respect.


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## Happyflowerlady (Oct 20, 2014)

JM, I think that probably most countries have some form of capital punishment, and for very brutal murderers, or other terrible crimes; I don't think that capital punishment is wrong. Some people can be rehabilitated; some can't, and our prison systems are mostly just housing prisoners, and not actively trying to rehabilitate them, in any case. 
So, this discussion is not centered upon whether a country has capital punishment or not; but the difference between it being a law of the country, or a murderous act done by terrorists.  There is a serious difference between the two things ! ! 
As far as the laws of capital punishment , it seems like each country decides what is punishable by death, as in the example of the Pakistan lady who is sentenced to death for getting a drink of water from a Muslim well.  In most cases the United States is pretty lenient about capital punishment.  It is only for serial killers, and people of that catagory. Many countries still execute people for being homosexuals; we certainly do not do that here in America. 
You are entitled to your opinion about both God and America; but it does not need to be pushed into people's faces here, in your usual form of America-bashing.
 We are a forum from many different countries here; and there is no need of anyone putting down someone else's country.


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## Warrigal (Oct 20, 2014)

What ISIS is doing is not capital punishment as the world understands the term - it is slaughter, pure and simple and used as an instrument of terror. They are barbarians but they are also quite clever. They know exactly what they are doing and why. Their cause and their methods are evil and cannot be considered to be serving the god that they claim to worship. I would go as far as to say that every time they utter the Arabic words for "God is great" and then proceed to murder they are committing both blasphemy and heresy.


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 21, 2014)

Well said, Dame, indeed, well said...


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## Vivjen (Oct 21, 2014)

As an aside; 140 out of 198 countries have abolished capital punishment.

However, IMO, countries are entitled to their own justice system, as agreed by their own people, so does not come into this discussion.

ISIS is not a country, and does not have a justice system; IMO it uses beheading as propaganda; no justice at all.
I don't think that things will improve until those opposed start using their own propaganda, and while countries like Turkey, Iraq, and Syria are all using their own agendas, and can hardly talk to each other, I think this could be a long and very difficult struggle; for hearts and minds.


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## Debby (Oct 21, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> JM, I think that probably most countries have some form of capital punishment,.......
> You are entitled to your opinion about both God and America; but it does not need to be pushed into people's faces here, in your usual form of America-bashing.
> We are a forum from many different countries here; and there is no need of anyone putting down someone else's country.




And still I see no sorrow for a man who wants peace and democracy but is being beheaded.  

I've been learning a lot lately about foreign affairs and foreign relations and foreign manipulation.  Ignoring the mainstream media has helped immensely in that regard.  And out of all of the reading that I do HFL, I've come to see that America seems to be on the forefront of a multitude of bad acts.  And in far too many instances it seems like your administration trots out the justification of peace, freedom and democracy.  Ha!  And yet when you have an example here of one man who espouses those very things, American sentiment here seems to be a level of disinterest and that is terribly sad.  He will die in a way that your government, your country and the world has decried as evil and inhuman .... but oh well?  My guess is that the reason no one cares is that he is Muslim whereas the journalists were white and not Muslim.  Am I wrong?  Because that's the way it looks.

And if you want to call reporting facts bashing, well so be it.  But facts are facts and truth is truth and you can't escape them.  Would you like to hear what the truth is behind the murderous rampage of Pol Pot in Cambodia in the 70's?


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