# Can we PLEASE use the english language correctly?



## Ronni (Apr 24, 2020)

On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:

I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Also, while I'm on the subject, here are a few more of my "butchering the english language" irritations.

It's a dog eat dog world, NOT "a doggy dog world." I don't know what "carpool tunnel syndrome" is, unless you mean Carpal tunnel syndrome. The correct phrase is; for all intents and purposes, and not "for all intensive purposes." Supposebly isn't a word; the correct word is "supposedly"  Also, it's just PIN and VIN, and NOT PIN number and VIN number....you are in essence saying Personal/Vehicle Identification Number Number.

Accept/except are in fact different words with different meanings.  So are then/than, and effect/affect.  And I think my all-time teeth grinder mispronunciation is "nucular" for nuclear. 

This isn't rocket science, folks. If more people would read, and actually SEE these things in print, they'd probably be less likely to butcher them.

And DON'T EVEN get me started on the differences between their, they're and there! 

EDITED TO ADD:  I got curious, and looked up commonly misused words and phrases.  A lot of these were in the few links I read.  And what that tells me is that at some point, these will become so commonly misused that they will begin to replace the actual phrases, or will at least reside side by side in the dictionary.  Much the way inflammable slowly fell into disuse because it was commonly mistaken to be the OPPOSITE of flammable, whereas they both in fact mean "able to burn"   (and FYI the opposite of both word is Non-flammable)


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## Devi (Apr 24, 2020)

Also, plurals:
man => men
woman => women

In other words, the singular of "women" is not "women".

And ... "loose" (not tight, etc.)
is not the same as "lose" (no longer have, etc.)

Lastly, for this list:
"Realtor" not "Realitor".


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## hollydolly (Apr 24, 2020)

Oh I've been saying the same to myself for years because all of your examples are how many people write online as well...  not just the younger generation  either...

Not talking about people who are dyslexic, but people who are just uneducated...

One that irritates me a lot particularly on auction sites, is ''Chester Draws''..FGS how hard is it to know it's a Chest of Drawers..


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2020)

My husband does those conference calls all the time. 

I’ve got to admit that I’m somewhat anal when it comes to certain things but I’ve only just discovered over the last 2 years that I’ve got OCD. 

My husband often doesn’t use correct grammar while speaking and it used to drive me nuts. He doesn’t use the word I’ve or we’ve before the word ‘got’ and I’d often correct him as well as other things. 

For myself, ( not picking on anyone here ) I’ve come to realize it’s got more to do with my dysfunction than anything  else so I’m working extra hard to just ‘let stuff go,’ otherwise I embarrass him needlessly.


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> Oh I've been saying the same to myself for years because all of your examples are how many people write online as well...  not just the younger generation  either...
> 
> Not talking about people who are dyslexic, but people who are just uneducated...
> 
> One that irritates me a lot particularly on auction sites, is ''Chester Draws''..FGS how hard is it to know it's a Chest of Drawers..



Chester draws!!


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 24, 2020)

A few things bother me such as the modern word incentivize.  What was wrong with the word incent?

IMO the whole idea is communication.  

If I can understand you and the point that you are trying to make I'm good.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 24, 2020)

Could this be an issue with "auto-correct?"


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## hollydolly (Apr 24, 2020)

Empty said:


> Could this be an issue with "auto-correct?"


 Not in Zoom...people are vocalizing .....


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 24, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> Not in Zoom...people are vocalizing .....



OOPS! - Shows what I know and what I don't know.  I am just familiar with my daughter telling her phone to message someone and the often humorous ways it destroys the context.  Personally, I still use the phone to actually talk.


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## Repondering (Apr 24, 2020)

Beware of hyperbole, not one person in a billion can manage it.
Also try and avoid mixed metaphors....they're a pain in the neck so just toss them into the trash..
And then there are foreign words, always find an English quid pro quo.
No sentence fragments!


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 24, 2020)

Repondering said:


> Beware of hyperbole, not one person in a billion can manage it.
> Also try and avoid mixed metaphors....they're a pain in the neck so just toss them into the trash..
> And then there are foreign words, always find an English quid pro quo.
> No sentence fragments!


My thoughts are sometimes fragmented and sentence fragments are the best that I can do /-;


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## Keesha (Apr 24, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Chester draws!!


I wasn’t making fun of you personally holly. I’ve just never heard anyone refer to a chest of drawers this way and found it funny.


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## StarSong (Apr 24, 2020)

I admit to using "number" after VIN and PIN and never considered that it's redundant.  "Pair of twins" is likewise redundant. (It's a set of twins; a pair of twins would be quadruplets.)  However, I don't correct people because it's part of the vernacular.    

Language morphs daily. My father corrected me I don't know how many times when the word "gross" started to mean disgusting and when "wicked" suddenly meant "cool" which had replaced "hip." All were new definitions of words with other meanings. 

I've never heard blessing in the skies, chester drawers, or but I digest. Good grief. They'd set my teeth on edge. 

The confusion over flammable/inflammable is understandable.  Oftentimes when "in" is used as a prefix it turns the rest of the word into a negative.  Inattention and inexpensive are good examples.  

Since being crystal clear about whether something might burst into flames is so crucial, I fully agree with dispensing with the possibly confusing "inflammable" and sticking with the far clearer "flammable."  (Ravel and unravel mean the same thing, too, but most people have a handle on those two.)      

All this said, improper use of language grates on my nerves, too. I reflexively correct my grandchildren when they say "Me and Gary are going to ride bikes." with "Gary and I" and wait for them to restate as "Gary and I are going to ride bikes." My daughter looked at me crooked early on when I did this with her three year old. I reminded her that people are judged by how we speak, and asked how she thought she came to have a good command over language and grammar - and for that matter how any of come to learn it. I was corrected by my parents, teachers, grandparents, and other adults. As was she. 

Speech patterns are established early in life. IMHO, not correcting a child's misuse of language is poor parenting. We think nothing of moving their fingers from their noses, endlessly prompting them to say "please" and "thank you," but think bad grammar patterns are adorable. 
I don't get it.


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## Lee (Apr 24, 2020)

Not one to be critical of others speech, spelling, or use of the correct word. Not all of us are winners in the National Spelling Bee or nominated for a Nobel prize in literature or whatever.

Now is "whatever" one word or two....just askin?


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## Marlene (Apr 24, 2020)

two that make me cringe are the confusing of use and utilize.  Use means to engage something in the accustomed manner to achieve a goal.  Utilize, on the other hand, signifies using something in a way that goes beyond normal usage to achieve a task.  For example, medications prescribed successfully for purposes other than the original intended purpose can correctly be described as utilized.  However, we use aspirin for headaches.  

The other one that grates on my nerves has happened so frequently that it is now accepted by some (but not by me as I hate how lazy it sounds).  The conjugation of sneak was sneak, sneaked, and sneaked.  People have used the slang, snuck, for so long that it is now accepted even by journalists.

On a different note, to support what Ronni pointed out, I had a list of misused words that I handed out to my students at the beginning of each semester.  Some of the more commonly misused words in my student papers were:

rather when they meant whether
between when they meant among
compliment when they meant complement
immigrant when they meant emigrant 
farther when they meant further (this one was misused by almost all of my students)
lay when they meant lie
effect when they meant affect
good when they meant well  (most people misuse that in colloquial speech, but it needs to be correct in papers)

and many, many more including the their constant confusing of to/two/too, then/than, and who's/whose.

However, one thing that provides great comic relief while grading stack after stack of poorly written papers are some of the gaffes in the papers. Here are a few that I've saved in a file to remind me that grading wasn't always boring.

In a social problems paper, one young woman who was writing on the dangers of texting and driving wrote:
Death is not uncommon.  It could happen to anyone, anywhere, and at anytime.  My comment:  You are very observant.  Since all of us die eventually, it certainly isn't uncommon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Another young fellow who was comparing the crimes of Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer wrote: There have been many cereal killers throughout history. . . My comment: Oh my, I hope they didn't murder Raisin Bran as that is my favorite cereal  (this was before autocorrect)

One student, obviously lacking knowledge of a few important definitions, who was writing about the Vietnam War protests wrote:  A century ago, in the early 1960s. . .  My comment: Wow, you have elevated my status to a centenarian.  I'd better call my congressional representative to see if I'm due some sort of reward or at least a birthday card from the president, don't you think?  

As you can see, I liked to use humor to correct them which was quite successful because it didn't frighten them away from asking questions. Some of their misguided attempts at sounding erudite kept me laughing on a regular basis, but luckily we laughed together.


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## RadishRose (Apr 24, 2020)

Marlene, I loved the examples you posted. I always think people learn so much more with humor.


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## Rosemarie (Apr 24, 2020)

It suggests to me that people haven't actually seen these words written down, they have only heard them spoken.
It's similar to the words of a song, which we often mishear  because we haven't seen the songsheet, we've only heard the song.


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## hollydolly (Apr 24, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I wasn’t making fun of you personally holly. I’ve just never heard anyone refer to a chest of drawers this way and found it funny.


 oh no I knew you were laughing at the name ...never occurred to me you were laughing at me, chikadee


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:
> 
> I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people! <SNIP>



I'm with you all the way Ronni. I've been complaining about this problem forever. One of the dumbest ones I've seen in recent years is using "then" and "than" interchangeably.

Americans are becoming increasingly illiterate in their native language. I suspect this is the same for most people here, but I could not graduate from high school (class of '68) without passing English -- which was a required course right through 12th grade. I have no idea what's going on today, but it sure isn't like when I was in school.

Some images I've made over the years that I used to post, but people got too upset with me so I don't do it anymore. It's a losing battle:


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## Marlene (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I'm with you all the way Ronni. I've been complaining about this problem forever. One of the dumbest ones I've seen in recent years is using "then" and "than" interchangeably.
> 
> Americans are becoming increasingly illiterate in their native language. I suspect this is the same for most people here, but I could not graduate from high school (class of '68) without passing English -- which was a required course right through 12th grade. I have no idea what's going on today, but it sure isn't like when I was in school.
> 
> Some images I've made over the years that I used to post, but people got too upset with me so I don't do it anymore. It's a losing battle:


keep up the good fight, I say.  Fight ignorance, and bring literacy back!


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## hellomimi (Apr 24, 2020)

What bothered me when I just came to the US was the use of would OF, should OF. English is my second language but was the mode of instruction in private schools.

After checking, I knew I was using contractions correctly ~ should've, could've, would've. From then on, it bothered me less in online discussions when I saw those terms.


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## JustBonee (Apr 24, 2020)

It's 2020 ..  so ...


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## RadishRose (Apr 24, 2020)

hellomimi said:


> What bothered me when I just came to the US was the use of would OF, should OF. English is my second language but was the mode of instruction in private schools.
> 
> After checking, I knew I was using contractions correctly ~ should've, could've, would've. From then on, it bothered me less in online discussions when I saw those terms.


Should have or could have. Not "of". You are correct.


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## RadishRose (Apr 24, 2020)

What about using "set" for "sit"?


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## Gary O' (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> "But I digest."


Oh, I'm gonna use me that'n
You wimin keep bringin' 'em….I'll compost notes (can always use a gud gnu wurd)


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## jujube (Apr 24, 2020)

I will admit that I get tired of grammar  misuse but when I get upset, I just pat myself softly and say "there, they're, their" and I feel better instantly.


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## jerry old (Apr 24, 2020)

"Come on Chester, the grammarians are on the attack again."

"How come is that Mr. Dillion?"

"Chester, they don't like regional dialect in it's written form."

"Mr Dillion, I couldn't never get a'holt of how their thinking.
I know stuff, I know the way you talk and write tells folks
what region your from, whether or not your a no account or a regular fella."
"It also has something to do with style, but I never could
make that out.  You know what they mean?"

"No, there's no arguing with these folks; the only thing we can do is slink into a cave tell there through."  

"Mr. Dillion I don't like caves, there plumb scary."

" They ain't near as scary as trying to talk to one of them 
grammarians."


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

jujube said:


> I will admit that I get tired of grammar  misuse but when I get upset, I just pat myself softly and say "there, they're, their" and I feel better instantly.



Haha, that reminded me -- here is one that I stole from someone online:


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## Butterfly (Apr 24, 2020)

The one that sends me right over the edge is the misuse of the apostrophe; I even see it misused on signs around here.  One that used to cause smoke to come out of my ears was the sign at a local bar that advertised "Ladie's drinks half price."  Ladie isn't a word.  Lady is the singular and ladies is the plural.  It you want to advertise half price drinks for women, it should be "Ladies' drinks."  GRRR.

Also, if you are writing of a family with the surname of Carson, it is not the Carson's; it's the Carsons.


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## Butterfly (Apr 24, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> What about using "set" for "sit"?



Yes -- hens set, people sit.  But you set (not sit) the bottle on the counter.


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## jerry old (Apr 24, 2020)

Post 29
Forgive me Butterfly, I'm having a redneck attack:

Them signs on giving females cheap liquor is a code sign for males.
Decoded it means, 'Come on in fella's, we done lured them
females in here; if you come in, spend money and such, you
might get lucky with one of them semi-drunk females.'

ADDENDUM
Post 30
This should get me in bit trouble.  What would be correct when your talking about a 'hen party,' sat, sitting, set...?


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## gennie (Apr 24, 2020)

I blame this on too few people actually reading books anymore.  Reading your phone won't replace the subliminal education value of reading a book.


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## Pinky (Apr 24, 2020)

gennie said:


> I blame this on too few people actually reading books anymore.  Reading your phone won't replace the subliminal education value of reading a book.


I recently read a book full of grammatical errors. It always makes me cringe, as it shouldn't pass the proof-reading.


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I'm with you all the way Ronni. I've been complaining about this problem forever. One of the dumbest ones I've seen in recent years is using "then" and "than" interchangeably.
> 
> Americans are becoming increasingly illiterate in their native language. I suspect this is the same for most people here, but I could not graduate from high school (class of '68) without passing English -- which was a required course right through 12th grade. I have no idea what's going on today, but it sure isn't like when I was in school.
> 
> Some images I've made over the years that I used to post, but people got too upset with me so I don't do it anymore. It's a losing battle:


Why do we hyphenate they're  when it's just as easy to type they are.


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

Stuff comes and goes as the centuries move on.

Actually I love the way people talk and their inflections and changing of words.  It identifies who they are.


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> The one that sends me right over the edge is the misuse of the apostrophe; I even see it misused on signs around here.  One that used to cause smoke to come out of my ears was the sign at a local bar that advertised "Ladie's drinks half price."  Ladie isn't a word.  Lady is the singular and ladies is the plural.  It you want to advertise half price drinks for women, it should be "Ladies' drinks."  GRRR.
> 
> Also, if you are writing of a family with the surname of Carson, it is not the Carson's; it's the Carsons.


That doesn't bother me at all.  I just say to myself no ladies around they just spelled laddie wrong when I order.


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## win231 (Apr 24, 2020)

You forgot two of my favorites:
"There's two," instead of there are two.
"I'll come over your house."  Flying?

And I get a laugh when someone is testifying in small-claims court & says, "I axed her" instead of "I asked her." (popular with black people). Really funny when the judge corrects her.

And "We conversated."


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## jerry old (Apr 24, 2020)

Camp:  Post 35
Correct!
The way you talk, write (and mannerisms) is as good as fingerprints in telling others where your from, how (and what)
you think.  
Your verbal and written behavior is your ethos.
(We have lost the complications within ethos, complex definition.)


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

I just ran into a call back on one I just posted in another thread.

I posted. I bought Basmati rice from India.

The reply  came back.  All the way from India? 

Well I didn't catch on at first .  But the word from is often used as origin and that's the way I speak..

When I ask "where are you from?"

But I love being corrected because I can change to the correct usage.

I was terrible with _your_ and _you're_ till it was pointed out to me.


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Camp:  Post 35
> Correct!
> The way you talk, write (and mannerisms) is as good as fingerprints in telling others where your from, how (and what)
> you think.
> ...


Also cursive writing tells how old you are.  I don't think it is even taught anymore.
Everyone prints now.  And they are really fast.


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## JaniceM (Apr 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> The one that sends me right over the edge is the misuse of the apostrophe; I even see it misused on signs around here.  One that used to cause smoke to come out of my ears was the sign at a local bar that advertised "Ladie's drinks half price."  Ladie isn't a word.  Lady is the singular and ladies is the plural.  It you want to advertise half price drinks for women, it should be "Ladies' drinks."  GRRR.
> 
> Also, if you are writing of a family with the surname of Carson, it is not the Carson's; it's the Carsons.


Reminded me of a friend from school-  for some reason, she thought even proper names that ended with "s" needed an apostrophe.  One day she was filling out a form that asked for her father's first name, and instead of writing Charles she wrote Charle's.  I said that wasn't accurate-  unless she was talking about something that belonged to a person named Charle.  She wasn't amused!


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## Camper6 (Apr 24, 2020)

win231 said:


> You forgot two of my favorites:
> "There's two," instead of there are two.
> "I'll come over your house."  Flying?
> 
> ...


Well no "There's 2 in that sign'. O.K. There are a 2 in the sign?


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## JaniceM (Apr 24, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Camp:  Post 35
> Correct!
> The way you talk, write (and mannerisms) is as good as fingerprints in telling others where your from, how (and what)
> you think.
> ...



Oh, absolutely!!  Although I've been in this are a long time, nearly everything I say/do brands me as an outsider.  As only one example, when I was a regular smoker, whenever I was at a bus stop or other location where others were not smoking I always asked if it'd bother them if I smoked.  This occasionally brought the response "Well, I can certainly tell you're not from (this location)-  you have manners!"  and others simply looked stunned by my question.


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:
> 
> I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people! <SNIP>



I saw that when I read your post the first time, but forgot to comment on it. This is one I love to pick apart.

First of all, to write "But I digress" is nothing more than a literary fad. And I hate fads as a rule, plus I try to avoid junk words that add nothing of substance.

So somebody writes an article/column and goes off on a tangent somewhere in the middle. That's always follow by "But I digress." And it's always those three exact words, thus a fad. Then they continue on with the main theme.

So if they are done "digressing," then they should have said: "I _digressed_ (past tense) and will now stop." If they use "But I digress," then the reader would assume they are not done digressing yet.  But it never happens that way.

1) Why must they ALWAYS point out that they went off on a digressing tangent? -- we are aware that they did. They point it out so they can be considered "cool" and up-to-speed by then saying "But I digress."

2) When writing, tangent ideas should be put in a sidebar. Not in the body of the article, and then noted by the author with a word used in the wrong tense.

IMO, a lot of this happens because when writing online, there are few restrictions on article length (like I'm doing ), unlike in newspapers or magazines. So lousy writers ramble on and, apparently, there are few or no editors to keep things as brief as possible and to keep a common theme from start to finish.

I've noticed this in homemade Youtube vids also, mostly technical ones. Like some guy removing a cover to something that has 12 screws in it, and we have to watch him take ALL of them out. Plus, a lot of vids waste time "digressing" also, heh.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Thank you Ronni for starting this thread. If it was somewhere other than a seniors' forum, I'm quite sure there would be a lot of vicious trolling of those of us who like to maintain standards.


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Pinky said:


> I recently read a book full of grammatical errors. It always makes me cringe, as it shouldn't pass the proof-reading.



Agree totally. Same for articles. When someone writes so poorly that you have to re-read every sentence to grasp its meaning, then I don't waste any more time on it. 

And a lot of posts and casual things written online are OBVIOUSLY not proof-read before posting. If people would only do that, it would be a big help.


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> The one that sends me right over the edge is the misuse of the apostrophe; I even see it misused on signs around here.  One that used to cause smoke to come out of my ears was the sign at a local bar that advertised "Ladie's drinks half price."  Ladie isn't a word.  Lady is the singular and ladies is the plural.  It you want to advertise half price drinks for women, it should be "Ladies' drinks."  GRRR.
> 
> Also, if you are writing of a family with the surname of Carson, it is not the Carson's; it's the Carsons.



Yes!

There is a large farm some miles from me, owned by the "Miller" family. Although they've taken it down, there used to be a _professionally-made_ sign in the front yard that said:

MILLER FARM'S

Huh?


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## JaniceM (Apr 24, 2020)

*“Their helping every night prepared dinner."   and  "Now we all write our meals and sitting down together and everybody pitches in."*
This is from one of today's local news stories about kids doing chores at home. 
Some people really need to go back to school and take some English classes...


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## Ronni (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> Agree totally. Same for articles. When someone writes so poorly that you have to re-read every sentence to grasp its meaning, then I don't waste any more time on it.
> 
> And a lot of posts and casual things written online are OBVIOUSLY not proof-read before posting. If people would only do that, it would be a big help.


I worked freelance as a proofreader in my younger years.  I am sometimes still employed to edit, though that's only occasionally these days.  

Proofreading is an exact skill.  I was trained to read a text at bare minimum three times.  The first time starting with the last word and working my way through the article or chapter to the first word. That would catch any errors in spelling.  The second time through, read from first word to last, looking for the less obvious errors, in particular plurals and contractions like an 's where there should be no apostrophe, or vice versa, the ..n't words, words like their, there and they're etc.  I would stop at every single instance of those kinds of words and read the sentence for context and then red-pen as necessary. And then the third time through, again from front to back, for flow, punctuation etc.  And becuase I'm so anal, I usually read it again a 4th time, occasionally picking up something I missed earlier.

These days the word processing programs take care of a lot of that.  But I think people rely too much on the on-board tools of word processing.  The program can tell if "whether" was spelled correctly, but won't differentiate if it should have been "whether," "weather," or "wether." Unless it's specifically designed to edit documents, like Grammerly for example, it won't let you know that a semi-colon would have been better than a comma, or a comma should have been used where there was a period, or there are too many run on sentences.

Proofreading and editing often overlap.  A good editor will also automatically proofread, and a good proofreader can't help but edit a bit.


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## Gaer (Apr 24, 2020)

I walked into a room once and said, "If I were doing this," and a lady looked at me and gasped!  She said, "I was an English teacher!  I haven't heard ANYONE say "were" instead of "was"  for years!  "I thought people stopped saying that!"  That was cool!  I clucked around a bit like a chicken!


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## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I worked freelance as a proofreader in my younger years.  I am sometimes still employed to edit, though that's only occasionally these days.
> 
> Proofreading is an exact skill.  I was trained to read a text at bare minimum three times.  The first time starting with the last word and working my way through the article or chapter to the first word. That would catch any errors in spelling.  The second time through, read from first word to last, looking for the less obvious errors, in particular plurals and contractions like an 's where there should be no apostrophe, or vice versa, the ..n't words, words like their, there and they're etc.  I would stop at every single instance of those kinds of words and read the sentence for context and then red-pen as necessary. And then the third time through, again from front to back, for flow, punctuation etc.  And becuase I'm so anal, I usually read it again a 4th time, occasionally picking up something I missed earlier.
> 
> ...



Beyond 12th grade English, I'm self-taught. I wrote 1½ novels (unpublished) 25 or so years ago; wow, was that ever a chore. Seems to me that you must have a real fire in your belly to write a book -- which I did have back then. Otherwise you will never finish it.

One thing I learned was when composing something important, I massage it the best I can, several times, then put it away and look at it the next day. (I suppose professionals probably don't have that luxury).

After sleeping on it, I often find errors or other corrections that are needed. Aside from grammar, punctuation, etc. I also learned how important it is to assemble sentences so they are (hopefully) clear the first time someone reads them. Sleeping on it, and looking at it fresh the next day  helps a lot with that. 

The tweaking can be endless though, so you just have to let it go at some point, ha.


----------



## PopsnTuff (Apr 24, 2020)

My biggest peeve is the word Idea pronounced by many as Ideal....where did they get that from?


----------



## PopsnTuff (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:
> 
> I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people!
> 
> ...


Wow Ronni, did you memorize all these incorrect uses of the words or did you write them down to post here, which is a great topic by the way? If you memorized them, I want some of your genes as my memory is slowly fading   Genuinely curious......


----------



## Ronni (Apr 24, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> Wow Ronni, did you memorize all these incorrect uses of the words or did you write them down to post here, which is a great topic by the way? If you memorized them, I want some of your genes as my memory is slowly fading   Genuinely curious......


On that Zoom call, there were just too many to ignore, so I wrote them down to put in my journal, because I have a section devoted entirely to things like this.  My friends call me The Grammar Nazi.  

My memory has gone to @#$% in my 60's.  If I didn't write stuff like that down there's no way I'd remember, other than a few pet peeves.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

Gaer said:


> I walked into a room once and said, "If I were doing this," and a lady looked at me and gasped!  She said, "I was an English teacher!  I haven't heard ANYONE say "were" instead of "was"  for years!  "I thought people stopped saying that!"  That was cool!  I clucked around a bit like a chicken!



Heh, in real life I talk like most people do, using slang, incorrect grammar, etc. Also online I sometimes use shortcuts like "cuz" instead of "because." And of course the endless internet acronyms, FWIW. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




My rule: It's okay to tweak and bend the language as long as you know it's wrong, and you know what the correct way is.  My two lunch buddies (who I haven't had lunch with since March 16) are both good at word games and when we get going, it all sounds like nonsense to someone who just walks up. We all feed off what the other guy says and it piles up very quickly. But we all understand each other and that's all that matters.


----------



## PopsnTuff (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On that Zoom call, there were just too many to ignore, so I wrote them down to put in my journal, because I have a section devoted entirely to things like this.  My friends call me The Grammar Nazi.
> 
> My memory has gone to @#$% in my 60's.  If I didn't write stuff like that down there's no way I'd remember, other than a few pet peeves.


Grammar Nazi is too funny ....I'm the same way with spotting wrong spelled words everywhere I read anything...
so I can be your Editing Nazi sister, lol....


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> Oh I've been saying the same to myself for years because all of your examples are how many people write online as well...  not just the younger generation  either...
> 
> Not talking about people who are dyslexic, but people who are just uneducated...
> 
> One that irritates me a lot particularly on auction sites, is ''Chester Draws''..FGS how hard is it to know it's a Chest of Drawers..


Chester Drawers.

The underwear choice of Gunsmoke deputies everywhere.


----------



## AnnieA (Apr 24, 2020)

gennie said:


> I blame this on too few people actually reading books anymore.  Reading your phone won't replace the subliminal education value of reading a book.



I dunno.  I read a lot but get sort of dyslexic about grammar rules though English was my best subject throughout schooling.  Scored above the 90th percentile on the GRE many, many! moons ago.   I think some of it is my work environment where you hear most anything.  Did much better during a stint working a college library.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

"Where you at?"

Much of this could be prevented if people were forced to read a book by a competent author every once in a while.  The problem is they never _see_ the written word outside of journalistic articles (which reinforce the ignorance), they only _hear_ colloquialisms.

I'm certain things will get better.  Until then--as the forest ranger once said--"Bear with me."


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

Devi said:


> Also, plurals:
> man => men
> woman => women
> 
> ...


Then we gotta add: "Library" not "Libary" and "Jewelry" not "Jewlery."


----------



## gennie (Apr 24, 2020)

Pinky said:


> I recently read a book full of grammatical errors. It always makes me cringe, as it shouldn't pass the proof-reading.


I notice this too.  And that is because Amazon makes it very easy and cheap to 'self-pub' and some authors then bypass an editor or someone to proofread and correct, IMHO.


----------



## gennie (Apr 24, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> "Where you at?"
> 
> Much of this could be prevented if people were forced to read a book by a competent author every once in a while.  The problem is they never _see_ the written word outside of journalistic articles (which reinforce the ignorance), they only _hear_ colloquialisms.
> 
> I'm certain things will get better.  Until then--as the forest ranger once said--"Bear with me."


Good point - competent author.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

gennie said:


> Good point - competent author.


Yeh, I was trying to come up with a "written before 19xx" reference, but I couldn't arrive at fixed date that fit.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> I dunno.  I read a lot but get sort of dyslexic about grammar rules though English was my best subject throughout schooling.  Scored above the 90th percentile on the GRE many, many! moons ago.   I think some of it is my work environment where you hear most anything.  Did much better during a stint working a college library.


I hate to admit that I did not understand the parts of speech until I took Spanish in high school ("Oh, so _that's_ was past/present/future participles are!!") It sure helps when things are consistent; otherwise, it's all rote (and much of English is.).


----------



## HazyDavey (Apr 24, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:
> 
> I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people!
> 
> ...



I've never judged a person on their writing or language skills.


----------



## JaniceM (Apr 24, 2020)

Devi said:


> Also, plurals:
> man => men
> woman => women



Examples of how "the correct way" should not be kicked aside in favor of "the modern way"-  not sure if I mentioned this somewhere, but not long ago a client actually bawled me out and accused me of being 'sexist' because I didn't use the word 'they' when referring to one individual, gender unknown, in an article I wrote for her.  
It can get tedious to write (or read) "he or she, he or she, he or she" throughout a long article-  and as a former English major, I stand by the rule that if it's one individual, gender unknown, the person is referred to as 'he.'  Nothing 'sexist' about it.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Examples of how "the correct way" should not be kicked aside in favor of "the modern way"-  not sure if I mentioned this somewhere, but not long ago a client actually bawled me out and accused me of being 'sexist' because I didn't use the word 'they' when referring to one individual, gender unknown, in an article I wrote for her.
> It can get tedious to write (or read) "he or she, he or she, he or she" throughout a long article-  and as a former English major, I stand by the rule that if it's one individual, gender unknown, the person is referred to as 'he.'  Nothing 'sexist' about it.


I shall never refer to an "actress" as an "actor"  or a "waitress" as a "waiter" or a "server."  That's rude and negating.

Some of this is driven by those who reject things merely because they have "always been," with no logic or consistency.  It's control and destruction, not linguistic evolution or progress or generational.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

gennie said:


> I notice this too.  And that is because Amazon makes it very easy and cheap to 'self-pub' and some authors then bypass an editor or someone to proofread and correct, IMHO.



Yes, I've been stung by this a couple of times. I've bought books (non-fiction) from Amz only to find that they are full of errors, and/or laid out poorly, rendering them unreadable.

Never again. I always check to see who the publisher is before I buy any online book.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> My biggest peeve is the word Idea pronounced by many as Ideal....where did they get that from?



Haha! I know a guy who does that, and me and others cannot figure it out. Where DOES it come from?


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> Grammar Nazi is too funny ....I'm the same way with spotting wrong spelled words everywhere I read anything...
> so I can be your Editing Nazi sister, lol....


----------



## jujube (Apr 24, 2020)

A country boy is admitted to Yale and is wandering around campus on his first day, looking for the library.

He stops another student and asks, "Can y'all tell me where the library's at?"

"My dear country bumpkin," drawls the other student, "here at Yale we do not end our sentences with prepositions.  Please rephrase your question correctly if you expect me to answer."

"Very well," answered the country boy, "can y'all tell me where the library's at, a$$hole?"


----------



## peppermint (Apr 24, 2020)

i'll do it myway…..Who Cares!!!!


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> Yes, I've been stung by this a couple of times. I've bought books (non-fiction) from Amz only to find that they are full of errors, and/or laid out poorly, rendering them unreadable.
> 
> Never again. I always check to see who the publisher is before I buy any online book.


What amazes me is the poor quality of writing by journalists in major news organizations.  It's fast food verbiage. It's not meant to be nourishing.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

jujube said:


> A country boy is admitted to Yale and is wandering around campus on his first day, looking for the library.
> 
> He stops another student and asks, "Can y'all tell me where the library's at?"
> 
> ...


I was gonna tell that story, but mine involved West Point cadets.


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 24, 2020)

Y'all do realize the English language is the whore of a number of other languages, right?
German; Go up
 French; arise
 even Latin...and others

And it's still evolving

Actually, I believe the only language that's stable is Latin....because it's a dead language
…..and why the medical profession uses it

(I'm just going from memory here, so correct me if I'm in error.......and I'll dig up my English prof, and give him what for)


----------



## Gary O' (Apr 24, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Also cursive writing tells how old you are. I don't think it is even taught anymore.


Well now....I just read a page in my grampa's bible

It certainly is a lost art


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Y'all do realize the English language is the whore of a number of other languages, right?
> German; Go up
> French; arise
> even Latin...and others
> ...


Yup.

I've already commented that I did not understand the various parts of speech until I took Spanish because Spanish is relatively consistent.

Whatever happened to the Esperanto movement?


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> What amazes me is the poor quality of writing by journalists in major news organizations.  It's fast food verbiage. It's not meant to be nourishing.



- Yup, even some of the so-called professionals write like crap nowadays. I think someone might have mentioned this above somewhere, but the best way to learn the language is to read books, magazines, columns, or anything else that is written properly. That's not as easy to find as it used to be.

- I subbed to a motorcycle magazine in the mid-'90s and the writing was so poor I couldn't read it. It was just too annoying.

- I've been online since 1994, and a handful of times I've run into posts where the writing had a few errors, but overall it wasn't all that bad -- better than what we might expect online. Then the poster started apologizing for their not-perfect English, saying they were from Europe (or wherever, don't remember) and that English was not their first language. 

Ha, I always told them that their writing was BETTER than a lot of Americans. Hopefully that made them feel pretty good.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> - I've been online since 1994, and a handful of times I've run into posts where the writing had a few errors, but overall it wasn't all that bad -- better than what we might expect online. Then the poster started apologizing for their not-perfect English, saying they were from Europe (or wherever, don't remember) and that English was not their first language.
> 
> Ha, I always told them that their writing was BETTER than a lot of Americans. Hopefully that made them feel pretty good.


I've worked for multi-nationals: French, German, Japanese.  I've told them that the only thing they need to apologize for is having a better command of our language than most of the native speakers I know.

I don't think I could be a journalist.  I always have to come back to what I've written with a fresh perspective, and often find that when I've rephrased something, I've introduced inconsistent verb tenses or so stupid subject agreement problem.  I do it in these short comment sections.  If I worked to a deadline and had to "Submit" to a deadline, I would also appear to be illiterate.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> I've worked for multi-nationals: French, German, Japanese.  I've told them that the only thing they need to apologize for is having a better command of our language than most of the native speakers I know.
> 
> I don't think I could be a journalist.  I always have to come back to what I've written with a fresh perspective, and often find that when I've rephrased something, I've introduced inconsistent verb tenses or so stupid subject agreement problem.  I do it in these short comment sections.  If I worked to a deadline and had to "Submit" to a deadline, I would also appear to be illiterate.



Same here! I could NEVER write under pressure. Without time to massage it and then sleep on it, it would be . . . not good.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 24, 2020)

I was just on another website and they were talking about the virus, and “heard” immunity. Sheesh. 

Have you ever heard of a buffalo herd having immunity?


----------



## win231 (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I was just on another website and they were talking about the virus, and “heard” immunity. Sheesh.
> 
> Have you ever heard of a buffalo herd having immunity?


I like that one, too.  Many doctors use that one when I ask them, "Doctor, who do so many people who got a flu shot get the flu?"
They'll answer:  "Uh...well....um.....you see......it can't always prevent the flu, b-b-but it provides Herd Immunity."
Naturally, they're saying the same thing now about the future Corona Vaccine.


----------



## Ferocious (Apr 24, 2020)

It's all this 'texting' and abreviating that is killing the beautiful language, and in my opinion (not IMO), it is down to sheer laziness. Our ancestors worked so hard for centuries to create a brilliant means of communicating, only for a few generations over a few decades to set about ruining it.


----------



## Rosemarie (Apr 24, 2020)

It isn't just how words are spoken. There is also a problem with how sentences are put together. I'm an avid reader and read books by both British and American authors. I assume that the literacy skills of the authors reflects their level of education. This suggests that the teaching of English is not standardised. Sentences are often put together very badly, and frequently don't actually make sense.

I won't name names, but one of my favourite authors is a qualified lawyer, so is highly educated, yet I get very frustrated at his poor literacy skills. I'm constantly mentally correcting his mistakes. Doesn't stop me enjoying his stories though.


----------



## win231 (Apr 24, 2020)

I just thought of another one.
When Kobe Bryant was killed, several headlines said it was a "Chopper Crash."  Isn't it a "Copter?"
I thought a chopper was a custom-built motorcycle with an extended front wheel like the one in "Easy Rider."


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> Haha! I know a guy who does that, and me and others cannot figure it out. Where DOES it come from?


England. That's how the announcers speak. For instance they say Canader instead of Canada. And there are other words like idear.


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I was just on another website and they were talking about the virus, and “heard” immunity. Sheesh.
> 
> Have you ever heard of a buffalo herd having immunity?


Yes I heard it on the radio.


----------



## Bee (Apr 25, 2020)

I accept people for who they are and what they are, it is not for me to find fault with how people pronounce or spell words, there could be many reasons for this.......just remember we are not all perfect.

By the way there are many words spelt differently in the USA to how we spell them in England.

A helicopter is often referred to as a chopper in England.


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 25, 2020)

Bee said:


> I accept people for who they are and what they are, it is not for me to find fault with how people pronounce or spell words, there could be many reasons for this.......just remember we are not all perfect.
> 
> By the way there are many words spelt differently in the USA to how we spell them in England.
> 
> A helicopter is often referred to as a chopper in England.





win231 said:


> I just thought of another one.
> When Kobe Bryant was killed, several headlines said it was a "Chopper Crash."  Isn't it a "Copter?"
> I thought a chopper was a custom-built motorcycle with an extended front wheel like the one in "Easy Rider."


I would never associate chopper with a motorcycle. There is a separate language for motorcycle enthusiasts. Chopper is common for helicopter.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Apr 25, 2020)

Ferocious said:


> It's all this 'texting' and abreviating that is killing the beautiful language, and in my opinion (not IMO), it is down to sheer laziness. Our ancestors worked so hard for centuries to create a brilliant means of communicating, only for a few generations over a few decades to set about ruining it.


----------



## Kadee (Apr 25, 2020)

Deleted


----------



## Ferocious (Apr 25, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


>


*Your image doesn't open, Bea, I'll bet it's good though.*


----------



## Devi (Apr 25, 2020)

You know, I'm always afraid to respond to these types of questions, because there's just a chance that I'll misspell something -- and not notice it! Geez!


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I was just on another website and they were talking about the virus, and “heard” immunity. Sheesh.
> 
> Have you ever heard of a buffalo herd having immunity?





win231 said:


> I like that one, too.  Many doctors use that one when I ask them, "Doctor, who do so many people who got a flu shot get the flu?"
> They'll answer:  "Uh...well....um.....you see......it can't always prevent the flu, b-b-but it provides Herd Immunity."
> Naturally, they're saying the same thing now about the future Corona Vaccine.



I guess you missed it.

"Herd immunity" is a legitimate term. "Heard immunity" is not.


----------



## JaniceM (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> Yes, I've been stung by this a couple of times. I've bought books (non-fiction) from Amz only to find that they are full of errors, and/or laid out poorly, rendering them unreadable.
> 
> Never again. I always check to see who the publisher is before I buy any online book.


I purchased two hardcover books published by traditional publishing houses that were also in that category, but I've found errors are often extreme in self-published books.  One was actually page after page after page of WEB LINKS!!!


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 25, 2020)

Devi said:


> You know, I'm always afraid to respond to these types of questions, because there's just a chance that I'll misspell something -- and not notice it! Geez!



Don't worry about it!  Everybody makes mistakes! I've proofread stuff several times, posted (or emailed) it, then looked at it later and see a missing word or something.

I hate auto-correct and have it shut off on all my devices. It is a huge part of the problem because it's often wrong. On the other hand (or OTOH!) spell-check is good and I have that on.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Apr 25, 2020)

Ferocious said:


> *Your image doesn't open, Bea, I'll bet it's good though.*


_Can you see me now?_


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 25, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I purchased two hardcover books published by traditional publishing houses that were also in that category, but I've found errors are often extreme in self-published books.  One was actually page after page after page of WEB LINKS!!!



The couple of times I got burned by self-published books from Amz, I did NOT go back and post a review. I should have, of course, and maybe I'll try to figure out which books they were and do it.

This thread is my motivation.


----------



## JaniceM (Apr 25, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> What amazes me is the poor quality of writing by journalists in major news organizations.  It's fast food verbiage. It's not meant to be nourishing.


What gets me on this topic is slang.  Haven't seen it in major news, but locally it's enough to make you want to tear your hair out.  One example from awhile back-  the title of an article on a local news site included the term 'LUNCH-SHAMING."  Naturally, I had to read the article to see what the heck it was about.  Turned out some schools were trying to figure out how to deal with students who came to school without lunch money.  
However-  my first though was I would have been fired on the spot if I'd used slang when I was working for print publications.  It didn't take long to occur to me, though, I'd probably be fired or lose clients even now.  I tried to shrug it off because the person who wrote it was rather young, but that's not really an excuse.  If a person is getting paid for writing, the material should be professionally-written.  "LUNCH-SHAMING"?!  Seriously?!


----------



## gennie (Apr 25, 2020)

But in the end, what's important is that our meaning is conveyed, right?  

More important than spelling, I think, is the proper use of commas.  Placement can totally change meaning.  For instance:

 "Let's eat Grandma"  as opposed to:  "Let's eat, Grandma"  or

 "A woman without her man is nothing." vs  "A woman, without her, man is nothing"


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 25, 2020)

gennie said:


> But in the end, what's important is that our meaning is conveyed, right?
> 
> More important than spelling, I think, is the proper use of commas.  Placement can totally change meaning.  For instance:
> 
> ...


Or the proper use of apostrophe's.

But in all fairness, both of them are so small.  They can't cost all that much and they take up so little room.  So why not liberally sprinkle them?


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 25, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> What gets me on this topic is slang.  Haven't seen it in major news, but locally it's enough to make you want to tear your hair out.  One example from awhile back-  the title of an article on a local news site included the term 'LUNCH-SHAMING."  Naturally, I had to read the article to see what the heck it was about.  Turned out some schools were trying to figure out how to deal with students who came to school without lunch money.
> However-  my first though was I would have been fired on the spot if I'd used slang when I was working for print publications.  It didn't take long to occur to me, though, I'd probably be fired or lose clients even now.  I tried to shrug it off because the person who wrote it was rather young, but that's not really an excuse.  If a person is getting paid for writing, the material should be professionally-written.  "LUNCH-SHAMING"?!  Seriously?!


Those authors don't think they're using slang.

Ain't _that_ sad?


----------



## JaniceM (Apr 25, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Well now....I just read a page in my grampa's bible
> 
> It certainly is a lost art
> 
> View attachment 100911


Oh my, what beautiful penmanship!!!


----------



## JaniceM (Apr 25, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> Those authors don't think they're using slang.
> 
> Ain't _that_ sad?



That's probably true.


----------



## Old Dummy (Apr 25, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> Can you see me now!



Haha, yes.

I've responded to posts (elsewhere online) that were a paragraph long run-on sentence, zero punctuation, zero caps, zero breaks, that looked like they were written by a pre-schooler.

I always get angry responses of course. I'm guilty of something (?) for pointing out that their post is unreadable. Then I usually say, "If America's illiteracy continues, then in another generation we'll be like chimpanzees -- screaming and throwing feces at each other."

But I quit doing that several years ago because it all seemed so pointless. That's why I LOVE  this thread because I can unload all my frustrations here!


----------



## Camper6 (Apr 25, 2020)

Devi said:


> You know, I'm always afraid to respond to these types of questions, because there's just a chance that I'll misspell something -- and not notice it! Geez!


Absolutely, and I avoid I.Q. tests the same way.  I don't want to know.


----------



## Ronni (Apr 25, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> Or the proper use of apostrophe's.
> 
> But in all fairness, both of them are so small.  They can't cost all that much and they take up so little room.  So why not liberally sprinkle them?


Are you intentionally being humorous with your apostrophe misuse? I can’t tell.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 25, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Are you intentionally being humorous with your apostrophe misuse? I can’t tell.


Yes.

I typed out the comment, and then went back and added that for effect.

What makes this stuff particularly egregious is that the author is already sitting at a computer where help is only a mouse-click away.  It's not as though they gotta reach up and grab their _Strunk & White_ and thumb through it. But you gotta question the inaccuracy in order to be motivated to investigate it.

You know, someone commented that they don't judge others by their grammar.  It's an interesting point.  We tend to diminish the opinion of those who lack command of "the basics" as we see them.  But it's just as wrong to make that assumption as it is to believe that someone's eloquence is anything more than a well-crafted veneer.  We can be easily deceived...either way.


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I always get angry responses of course. I'm guilty of something (?) for pointing out that their post is unreadable. Then I usually say, "If America's illiteracy continues, then in another generation we'll be like chimpanzees -- screaming and throwing feces at each other."
> 
> But I quit doing *that* several years ago because it all seemed so pointless.


Please clarify what "that" you quit doing, because criticizing those who are not receptive to you and throwing feces may or may not be equally pointless.


----------



## Ronni (Apr 25, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> Please clarify what "that" you quit doing, because criticizing those who are not receptive to you and throwing feces may or may not be equally pointless.


Clever!


----------



## In The Sticks (Apr 25, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Clever!


It's a horrible language full of so many holes, isn't it?

Daggone verb tense disagreements, subject disagreements, dangling modifiers,changes in voice, etc.


----------



## jujube (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Dummy said:


> I was just on another website and they were talking about the virus, and “heard” immunity. Sheesh.
> 
> *Have you ever heard of a buffalo herd having immunity*?



An old lady goes to a dude ranch and says to a cowpoke, "Look at that bunch of cows!"

"Herd," the cowpoke corrects.

"Heard of what?" asks the old lady.

"Herd of cows," the cowpoke replies.

"Of course, I've heard of cows!" says the old lady.

"No, ma'am, a cow herd," explains the cowpoke politely.

"Well, I certainly don't care if a cow heard!  I haven't said anything I wouldn't want a cow to hear!" she exclaims and stomps off indignantly.


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## jujube (Apr 25, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> *Y'all do realize the English language is the whore of a number of other languages, right?*



Or the bastard offspring of said whore.....


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## Gary O' (Apr 25, 2020)

jujube said:


> Or the bastard offspring of said whore.....


HAH! Most likely


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## Camper6 (Apr 25, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Are you intentionally being humorous with your apostrophe misuse? I can’t tell.


Is that a gotcha?


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## win231 (Apr 25, 2020)

I ain't got much use for good grammer or good speling.


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## Buckeye (Apr 25, 2020)

"lunch shaming" isn't slang - it is an accepted term in education and the related food service industry.  I spent some time working for a company that was responsible for 100s of school cafeterias, and a lot of effort was put into avoiding and eliminating the stigma associated with the free lunch programs.


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## Gardenlover (Apr 25, 2020)

OMG, LMAO.


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## JaniceM (Apr 26, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> "lunch shaming" isn't slang - it is an accepted term in education and the related food service industry.  I spent some time working for a company that was responsible for 100s of school cafeterias, and a lot of effort was put into avoiding and eliminating the stigma associated with the free lunch programs.


Concept:  understood.  Term:  another example of slang butchering the English language.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 26, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Concept:  understood.  Term:  another example of slang butchering the English language.


With a side order of making government dependence universal and ever-expanding.

And the irony of it not being slang because it emits from the "education system" is not lost.


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## Buckeye (Apr 26, 2020)

{shrug} My point was that the term "lunch shaming" is not slang.  This is not the thread to debate the merits of the concept.


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## MarciKS (Apr 26, 2020)

Ronni said:


> On a Zoom call, (for those of you who aren't familiar Zoom is a cloud-based video conferencing service you can use to virtually meet with others) so lots of people on the screen.  In the course of that half hour video call, I heard the following:
> 
> I heard: "I could care less" (I COULDN'T care less!) "But I digest." (but I DIGRESS!) "All the sudden" (All OF A sudden!) and "A blessing in the skies" (A blessing IN DISGUISE!) Dear God, people!
> 
> ...



My favorite is when people add an s to a word like "I went to the *Walmarts *and got me one of those there...."


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## MarciKS (Apr 26, 2020)

Then there's its and it's. That's one I have to think about sometimes because I forget it's there. I don't even remember being taught it. I'm sure I was.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 26, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Then there's its and it's. That's one I have to think about sometimes because I forget it's there. I don't even remember being taught it. I'm sure I was.


Don't let it affect, or effect you, Marci.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 26, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Then there's its and it's. That's one I have to think about sometimes because I forget it's there. I don't even remember being taught it. I'm sure I was.


Same here.

What a horrible language.


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## JaniceM (Apr 26, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> My favorite is when people add an s to a word like "I went to the *Walmarts *and got me one of those there...."



I've never heard that one, but around here it's used as a verb:  "If you're not busy later, do you want to go Walmartin'?"


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## MarciKS (Apr 26, 2020)

In The Sticks said:


> Same here.
> 
> What a horrible language.




Anything has to be better than trying to figure this out.


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## JaniceM (Apr 26, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> {shrug} My point was that the term "lunch shaming" is not slang.  This is not the thread to debate the merits of the concept.


Yes, it's slang.  The same as "fat-shaming," "body-shaming," and so forth.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 26, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I've never heard that one, but around here it's used as a verb:  "If you're not busy later, do you want to go Walmartin'?"



Walmartin.  Steve's younger brother.


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## MarciKS (Apr 26, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I've never heard that one, but around here it's used as a verb:  "If you're not busy later, do you want to go Walmartin'?"



But it's not a verb. It's a proper noun. Just like in that last post. Walmart is one store. Not a plural.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 26, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Anything has to be better than trying to figure this out.
> View attachment 101174


Languages are fascinating stuff.  They truly reflect the way we view and process life.

I believed that was the case when taking high school Spanish...first the noun, then the adjective (cup black, not black cup.)  First you get a mental image of the object, then the description is refined.

How the same species can communicate in so many dissimilar ways almost defies comprehension.


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## Ronni (Apr 26, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> My favorite is when people add an s to a word like "I went to the *Walmarts *and got me one of those there...."


Victoria’s “Secrets” is another of my pet peeves. It’s “Secret”—singular.


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## Buckeye (Apr 26, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Yes, it's slang.  The same as "fat-shaming," "body-shaming," and so forth.



Sorry, but with all due respect, you are not the final authority on this.
CNN news article
NBC News Article

So, if you still have a problem with the term, take it up with CNN/NBC/etc.   I have no need to comment further


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## Ruthanne (Apr 26, 2020)

There are some who purposely dismember the English language for fun or to be more interesting, too, ya know...


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## RadishRose (Apr 26, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> There are some who purposely dismember the English language for fun or to be more interesting, too, ya know...


Yes, I love fragmented sentences.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 26, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> There are some who purposely dismember the English language for fun or to be more interesting, too, ya know...


You mean like Norm Crosby?


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## gennie (Apr 26, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> There are some who purposely dismember the English language for fun or to be more interesting, too, ya know...


Yes, and paid good money to do it.


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## gennie (Apr 26, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Victoria’s “Secrets” is another of my pet peeves. It’s “Secret”—singular.



Surely she had more than one.


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## Ruthanne (Apr 26, 2020)

gennie said:


> Yes, and paid good money to do it.


and then some just do it for the heck of it!


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## fmdog44 (Apr 26, 2020)

unequivocally indifferent


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## peppermint (Apr 26, 2020)

I think the English Language is dead..  It's not like it use to be....They don't have Eng


Bonnie said:


> It's 2020 ..  so ...


I love this.....I couldn't care a "blank" …..


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## jujube (Apr 26, 2020)

Mrs. Smith, the 4th-grade teacher, liked to occasionally call on her students' parents.

Saturday morning, she knocked on Johnny's door.  Johnny answered.

"Good morning, Johnny. I'm calling on your mother. Is she home?"

"No, ma'am, she ain't to home. She done gone to the store."

"Well then, is your father home?"

"No, ma'am, he ain't to home neither. He done be at work today."

"Johnny, I must say I'm shocked! I thought I had taught you better.  Where is your grammar, young man?"

"She ain't never home on a Saturday.  She always a-playing bingo down at the Elks."


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## Grampa Don (Apr 27, 2020)

Some wonder why more folks don't contribute to this forum.  Congratulations, you've probably just scared away a bunch of them.  Not everyone is as literate as you all are.  But, they can still have interesting stories to tell or ideas to share.  I too grimace a little at some errors I see.  But, I try to consider that person's background and experience.

I have a pen pal who makes some funny mistakes.  But, if I corrected him on them he probably wouldn't be my pen pal.  And, I would miss that.

Don


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## win231 (Apr 27, 2020)

Grampa Don said:


> Some wonder why more folks don't contribute to this forum.  Congratulations, you've probably just scared away a bunch of them.  Not everyone is as literate as you all are.  But, they can still have interesting stories to tell or ideas to share.  I too grimace a little at some errors I see.  But, I try to consider that person's background and experience.
> 
> I have a pen pal who makes some funny mistakes.  But, if I corrected him on them he probably wouldn't be my pen pal.  And, I would miss that.
> 
> Don


Yeah, grammar Nazi's tickle me, too.  Especially when they don't realize how desperate they are to appear smarter than everyone else.
And, by the way, it's not _"literate as you all are."  _It's _"Literate as y'all are."_
Ain't ya got no learnin'?


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## Ken N Tx (Apr 27, 2020)

win231 said:


> Ain't ya got no learnin'?


Are you from Texas??


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## win231 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ken N Tx said:


> Are you from Texas??


No.  CA.  But I like hearing Southern talk.


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## Ronni (Apr 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yeah, grammar Nazi's tickle me, too.  Especially when they don't realize how desperate they are to appear smarter than everyone else.
> And, by the way, it's not _"literate as you all are."  _It's _"Literate as y'all are."_
> Ain't ya got no learnin'?


I’m frequently called a grammar Nazi.

If I were desperate to appear smarter than anyone else there are so many other, faster ways to accomplish that.

I don’t ever correct anyone’s grammar, punctuation or word usage in person. Stopped doing that once my kids reached adulthood and it was no longer my job.  I DO comment on seen or heard irregularities from strangers and complain about them because they’re pet peeves.

I know you can understand that @win231 because you also do your share of complaining about others’ choices too which tells me that you, like the rest of we flawed and imperfect humans, also have pet peeves.


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## In The Sticks (Apr 28, 2020)

I had to scratch my head over the complaint.

Let's not lose site of which pre-defined group in which we're having this conversation:



No one is bemoaning the lack of quality in any General area.

I've not seen anyone call out a specific person's skills (directly or passively) here or in any other thread (_that's_ what a Grammar Nazi does), nor have I seen anyone complain about posters in general during my brief time here.

This forum has over 30 Groups and nearly 40,000 threads.  This is only one of those 40,000 threads is in a group clearly named "English Language" titled "Can We Please Use the English Language Correctly."  I doubt that this is gonna chase any one away.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe there are things here I've yet to stumble across.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 28, 2020)

I think we take it for granite that we are all up on how to talk more gooder than otters.


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## win231 (Apr 28, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I’m frequently called a grammar Nazi.
> 
> If I were desperate to appear smarter than anyone else there are so many other, faster ways to accomplish that.
> 
> ...


Correcting people's grammar in person would only reach that one person.  You do it on a forum because you are well aware that you are correcting many people's grammar & telling many people how smart you are.


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## Grampa Don (Apr 28, 2020)

You can’t see that the very title of this thread can be intimidating?

There are many otherwise intelligent people who are not conversant with all the rules of English grammar and spelling, rules that were arbitrarily created long ago.  If you are a purist, you are fighting a losing battle.  English has always been a language in flux.

I don’t like to see cuz used instead of because.  But, I can see the logic of it.  It’s phonetic, shorter and conveys the same meaning. There may come a time when the word because is considered archaic.

Certainly, people who write professionally should follow the rules.  If you want to sell your writing, it should be easy to read.  But, in an open and supposedly friendly forum, rules be damned.  It’s what’s in members’ hearts and minds that counts.

Don


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## jujube (Apr 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yeah, grammar Nazi's tickle me, too.  Especially when they don't realize how desperate they are to appear smarter than everyone else.
> And, by the way, it's not _"literate as you all are."  _*It's *_*"Literate as y'all are."*_
> Ain't ya got no learnin'?



Now, I KNOW you're not a Suth'nuh.  Otherwise, you'd know that the plural of "_y'all"_ is "all _y'all"_…..


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## win231 (Apr 28, 2020)

jujube said:


> Now, I KNOW you're not a Suth'nuh.  Otherwise, you'd know that the plural of "_y'all"_ is "all _y'all"_…..


LOL.  I liked the way Archie Bunker said "Youse people" but I never heard the word "Turlet" before that show.


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## Lewkat (Apr 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> LOL.  I liked the way Archie Bunker said "Youse people" but I never heard the word "Turlet" before that show.


The usage of Archie's words were pure Brooklynese.  My mother in law talked the same way.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 28, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> The usage of Archie's words were pure Brooklynese.  My mother in law talked the same way.


The best English that ever was!


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## Packerjohn (Apr 28, 2020)

First there was Cornovirus.  Then they got cute & it became KORVID-19.  I just call it Kornie Virus because there is so much politically correct cornie stuff going on with the media reporting it.  I like the play-on-words.  Works for me every time.  LOL


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## Ronni (Apr 28, 2020)

Packerjohn said:


> First there was Cornovirus.  Then they got cute & it became KORVID-19.  I just call it Kornie Virus because there is so much politically correct cornie stuff going on with the media reporting it.  I like the play-on-words.  Works for me every time.  LOL



Here in the South it's derogatorily referred to as "the 'rona."


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## Lewkat (Apr 28, 2020)

I have been listening to fractured English for decades and some of these people are considered well educated.


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## Ronni (Apr 28, 2020)

win231 said:


> Correcting people's grammar in person would only reach that one person.  You do it on a forum because you are well aware that you are correcting many people's grammar & telling many people how smart you are.


  

I think you're actually serious!  You really believe this!  Wow. 

I haven't corrected a single person's grammar who's on this forum, nor would I.   I don't read posts with a red pen in hand, just waiting to POUNCE on some poor unsuspecting poster who misplaces an apostrophe or or uses "they're" incorrectly.  I'm interested in content, in being engaged with subject or opinion, in responding, giving my input, advice, answering the question posed, whatever the topic is about.

I think someone else talked about this being the section of Senior Forums SPECIFICALLY DEVOTED TO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, which is where this thread is.  I've said not one thing offensive, rude, derogatory, or otherwise critical to anyone on this forum.  I haven't even singled out ANY specific individual off the forum,  just commented on things I've overheard or read that annoy me. 

If you, personally, are THAT insecure that you need to tear me down, then that's on YOU, not me.  Go right ahead.  I don't have an ego, but I do have enough self-esteem that I'm perfectly able to withstand whatever you feel you need to say to me to make yourself feel better.


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## Buckeye (Apr 28, 2020)

How many of you have noticed the misspelled word in the box for our post/reply?  It says:

Write your reply here.....
If you write a long post, please separate it into *serveral* paragraphs for easier reading


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## Lewkat (Apr 28, 2020)

No, I hadn't noticed it.  My bad.


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## Keesha (Apr 29, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> No, I hadn't noticed it.  My bad.


I don’t either but I’m on the phone app .
That’s funny though.


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## Ruthanne (Apr 30, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> How many of you have noticed the misspelled word in the box for our post/reply?  It says:
> 
> Write your reply here.....
> If you write a long post, please separate it into *serveral* paragraphs for easier reading


That's a little automatic thing our minds do.  We see the letters and and rewrite the word in our minds.


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