# Medically assisted death for terminally ill



## Olivia (Mar 1, 2018)

Our legislature will be voting next week for a bill which would give patients with less than six months to live the option of requesting prescriptions for lethal doses of medication. The last time they voted on this type bill, which was in 2002, it lost by three votes.

I'm 100% for this. What do you all think?


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## James (Mar 1, 2018)

100%.  Medically Assisted In Dying [MAID] is legal in Canada. Became legal in June 2016

*Who is eligible for MAID in Canada under the new law?*
Under Bill C-14, two independent health care professionals need to evaluate an individual in order to determine whether he/she qualifies for MAID. To qualify, an individual must be 18 years or older and meet the following four eligibility criteria:
1. Have a serious and incurable illness, disease, or disability;
2. Be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability; 
3. Endure physical and psychological suffering that is intolerable to them; and
4. Their natural death has become reasonably foreseeable.
Patients must also be capable of providing informed consent at the time that MAID is provided.


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## Lon (Mar 1, 2018)

I think it's a great idea but would make it 12 months instead of 6.


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 1, 2018)

I think that it is a great idea.

I agree with Lon about extending the time or even removing the time limit and leaving it up to the person and two independent healthcare professionals.


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## CeeCee (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm all for it also.  I do not want to die in horrible pain.  I'm sure I would know when the time was right for me to leave this world peacefully.


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## JimW (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm all for it as well. No need for anyone to suffer needlessly.


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## terry123 (Mar 1, 2018)

I vote yes also.


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## Sunny (Mar 1, 2018)

Absolutely 100% for it.


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 1, 2018)

I wish this were an option for the terminally useless. I'll know when I get to that stage, and I'd go for it.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 1, 2018)

Yes, I'm all for this.   But I would remove the "time limit."   Who among us knows for sure how much time we have left?


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## Don M. (Mar 1, 2018)

Dr. Kevorkian was right...a terminally ill person Should have the option of ending their misery when they chose to.  I recently watched a neighbor with terminal cancer go through months of misery, and every time I visited him in his final months, he said he wished he could go today.  IMO, the Primary reason why people are forced to go through so much misery is to grease the palms of our Health Care Industry.


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm curious; why "assisted" suicide? Why don't people take on this responsibility themselves, if they are able? Is it fear of punishment from God? And if that's the case, shouldn't the person being "assisted" have some regard for the soul of the person doing the assisting?


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## James (Mar 1, 2018)

Its "medically assisted dying".  In Canada it's performed by a physician who has agreed to do it.  Here doctors have the option of opting out of the program.  

Its done so that it's a humane and certain end to your life and not up to a friend to make sure that the noose is tied correctly or that you've taken the right amount of pills to do the job properly.

My cousins wife had it done when she was in Hospice Care.

The premise is to end your life humanely, not make it worse by turning you into a vegetable.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 1, 2018)

Cap'nSacto said:


> I'm curious; why "assisted" suicide? Why don't people take on this responsibility themselves, if they are able? Is it fear of punishment from God? And if that's the case, shouldn't the person being "assisted" have some regard for the soul of the person doing the assisting?



Because assistance from a doctor administering drugs to ease you out of this world is preferable to a handgun or hanging.   At least from where I'm sitting.


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 1, 2018)

Thanks, James and C'est Moi. I wouldn't hang myself, or shoot myself, either. Undoubtedly some would, though. I was just wondering if people choose an assistant because they believe suicide is punishable by God. 

I still suspect many do, but of course, I could be wrong.


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## rgp (Mar 1, 2018)

I agree 100% as well......that said.

I really do not believe there should be any "qualifiers" required.I believe any person should at any time have the ability to end their life. Life is allot of things to allot of folks. When it stops being what a person wants it to be. If they "want-out" ? IMO that is their business & only their business. Sorry for them that it might come to that, but if relief from what ever burden they are under is what they seek & want ? Then I want it for them.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 1, 2018)

Cap'nSacto said:


> Thanks, James and C'est Moi. I wouldn't hang myself, or shoot myself, either. Undoubtedly some would, though. I was just wondering if people choose an assistant because they believe suicide is punishable by God.
> 
> I still suspect many do, but of course, I could be wrong.



Well, that would be another debate.   If a person seeking "assisted suicide" is planning their own death, would that not still be suicide?   Whether by their own hand or the hand of a doctor, they still have to sign documents (and in some cases be videoed) agreeing to the procedure.   So it's still suicide no matter how it's carried out.


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## Olivia (Mar 1, 2018)

In this bill even though the lethal medication is prescribed and overseen by a physician, the medication itself is self-administered. 

There are tons of rules and protections in this bill. It's not just call a doctor and get help to die.


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 1, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Well, that would be another debate.   If a person seeking "assisted suicide" is planning their own death, would that not still be suicide?   Whether by their own hand or the hand of a doctor, they still have to sign documents (and in some cases be videoed) agreeing to the procedure.   So it's still suicide no matter how it's carried out.



And?


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## Butterfly (Mar 1, 2018)

I am strongly in favor of assisted suicide or whatever one chooses to call it.  There have been several attempts to legalize it in my state, but to no avail, probably at least somewhat due to the high concentration of Catholics in our population.  I hope we can get there in the future.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 1, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> And?



Did you need further clarification?   I was responding to Cap'nSacto's post about suicide being punishable by God.


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## Traveler (Mar 1, 2018)

Assisted suicide is, in my opinion, totally up to the individual. Moreover, I strongly feel that any adult , should be able to end it, without any doctors approval. It is, after all, their life. I don't see how society has any right to interfere. 

People do commit suicide. So, why not offer the option of making it clean and painless ?  Clinics, much like abortion clinics, could be set up for people who don't want to be here any more.


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## Olivia (Mar 1, 2018)

Because mental illness is not an option for assistant suicide, and and neither is being mad at the world.


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 1, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I am strongly in favor of assisted suicide or whatever one chooses to call it.  There have been several attempts to legalize it in my state, but to no avail, probably at least somewhat due to the high concentration of Catholics in our population.  I hope we can get there in the future.



I believe religious beliefs ...or, lets call it moral judgement... moral judgement plays a big part in the lack of support for this kind of legislation. Naturally, people who are successful at suicide can't be prosecuted, but it can cast a shadow of shame and guilt over the family. An elderly person who plans suicide should first speak to their family, or leave them a letter explaining the reasons, that it had nothing to do with the surviving family, and encouraging them to not feel guilty or ashamed. I've already composed a letter, but I will also talk to my kids if/when the time comes.


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## Olivia (Mar 1, 2018)

It's not suicide if you're already going to die and you want to do it where and when, and how you want, and have your family already around you.  Who could want anything more? I would have wanted it for my mom. But, no, it had to be a call in the night and by the time I got there, it was too late. I will never get over that.


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## Olivia (Mar 1, 2018)

I should also add that assisted suicide is not a simple choice and then go ahead and do it. There are all kind so regulations and protections in this bill. And counseling and families involved, etc.


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## Traveler (Mar 2, 2018)

There are many, many, reasons why a person might choose suicide.  Not all of them are physical pain or terminal illness. 
If you doubt that, watch a Richard Dreyfuss film entitled "Those Life Is It Anyway ?".


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 2, 2018)

Olivia said:


> It's not suicide if you're already going to die and you want to do it where and when, and how you want, and have your family already around you.  Who could want anything more? I would have wanted it for my mom. But, no, it had to be a call in the night and by the time I got there, it was too late. I will never get over that.



Whether you're close to death due to terminal disease or you're not, whether it's done with medical assistance or not, ending your own life is suicide. 

I'm not arguing that it's wrong. I'm all for it. I just had a question about why there isn't more support for End-of-Life Choice laws. 

Personally, I don't need my gov't to say it's ok for me to choose to be euthanized, but I would definitely tick the "Yes" box if End-of-Life Choice legislation appeared on my voter's ballot.


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## Traveler (Mar 2, 2018)

Cap'nSacto said:


> Whether you're close to death due to terminal disease or you're not, whether it's done with medical assistance or not, ending your own life is suicide.
> 
> I'm not arguing that it's wrong. I'm all for it. I just had a question about why there isn't more support for End-of-Life Choice laws.
> 
> Personally, I don't need my gov't to say it's ok for me to choose to be euthanized, but I would definitely tick the "Yes" box if End-of-Life Choice legislation appeared on my voter's ballot.




Hear, hear !


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## debbie in seattle (Mar 2, 2018)

I have always been a big advocate on this issue, but now that my husband is terminally ill and we’ll be lucky if he’s still with us in 6 months, I couldn’t imagine anything like this.   Talk is big until it’s staring you in the face.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Because mental illness is not an option for assistant suicide, and and neither is being mad at the world.



Not sure I get your [mental illness] point ?

If a person is just "mad at the world" and want's to leave it ? Why stop them ? Refusing them that right is only going infuriate them more. Shouldn't it be _their _choice?


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## C'est Moi (Mar 2, 2018)

The thread seems to be veering away from the intent of the law... assisted suicide for the _terminally ill_.  I doubt we will ever see assisted suicide for random depressed people.   They will have to resort to the time-honored methods of shuffling off the mortal coil.


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## Sunny (Mar 2, 2018)

A few years ago, a close friend who lived in Washington state was diagnosed with leukemia. Medical treatment did not help. She told me she was very much at peace with the situation; she was in her 80's and had had a long, full life.  As she put it, she said, "I've had a good run."  She was very grateful to live in a state where there was medically assisted suicide if needed.

Fortunately, it never came to that; she passed away peacefully without any assistance. But I got the feeling that just knowing that the option is out there gives a lot of peace to people who are terminally ill.  Most of us don't want to die, but if it's inevitable, wouldn't we prefer a peaceful, painless end?  (We don't have it yet in Maryland, though there are groups that are trying to get the bill passed.)


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> The thread seems to be veering away from the intent of the law... assisted suicide for the _terminally ill_.  I doubt we will ever see assisted suicide for random depressed people.   They will have to resort to the time-honored methods of shuffling off the mortal coil.



 Maybe / maybe not...if we can convince the powers that be , that the terminal should have this available. That might just open the door for others, the depressed or ? 

It really shouldn't matter why a person wants to die at their own hand. We do not have a choice in coming into this world...we IMO sure as hell should have a choice in leaving it.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> Maybe / maybe not...if we can convince the powers that be , that the terminal should have this available. That might just open the door for others, the depressed or ?
> 
> It really shouldn't matter why a person wants to die at their own hand. We do not have a choice in coming into this world...we IMO sure as hell should have a choice in leaving it.



We always have that choice.


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## Traveler (Mar 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Most of us don't want to die, but *if *it's inevitable, wouldn't we prefer a peaceful, painless end?




*If *it is inevitable ?  There is no *if *about it. All of us are going to die.


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## Sunny (Mar 2, 2018)

True, Traveler. But how about "If it is inevitable in the near future?"  Or maybe just stick with the 6 month time frame already suggested.


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## Olivia (Mar 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *If *it is inevitable ?  There is no *if *about it. All of us are going to die.



Yes, but some deaths are easier than others, such as my neighbor's wife told her husband she was going for a walk while he was watching television. When she didn't return for quite a while, he went out looking for her. When he opened the door, there she was right there on the ground. She had passed away. Shocking for her husband, but she didn't go through any long agony. She had two weeks previously turned 90 and one of her sons had just left that day to go back to Florida. They had spent nice times together golfing and other things. If we could all go that way.


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## DaveA (Mar 2, 2018)

Sounds reasonable to me.  The law only ALLOWS it, therefore it's no burden for those who don't choose that path. And although it may sound crass to some, if the outcome is inevitable in a few months and the person wants to end the suffering, it also reduces the horrendous costs that decimate families who don't have the good fortune to be wealthy.


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## James (Mar 2, 2018)

I investigated a murder/suicide (just one of many but this was a bit different). Both very elderly living on their own.  She had Alzheimer's and he was the only caregiver.  Only family were children that lived out of town.

He was becoming frail and was told that he needed surgery and that his recovery time was going to be long and that it would be in the hospital for a month then in an assisted living residence.  There was also a very good possibility that he would never return "home".  

He decided that was enough and he ended both of their lives.

This happens more than people probably realize.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> We always have that choice.



Well that's true, I just meant in a more dignified manner , & perhaps a bit less messy.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> True, Traveler. But how about "If it is inevitable in the near future?"  Or maybe just stick with the 6 month time frame already suggested.



So we stick with the six month time frame?..OK that suits the needs /desires of some...others should still be held to the decision of ?

Why can't we just say...OK, ya want to leave this life, this earth ? Sorry you have come to that decision but....it is your decision too make ..........farewell.


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## Olivia (Mar 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> Well that's true, I just meant in a more dignified manner , & perhaps a bit less messy.



I understand what you're saying, but we're just interested in getting this bill for terminally ill patients passed. The kind of idea you're talking about (which frankly I don't quite understand why there should be a law for it--or maybe you're meaning there should not be a law against it) is just the kind of slippery slope talk that could kill it.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

Olivia said:


> I understand what you're saying, but we're just interested in getting this bill for terminally ill patients passed. The kind of idea you're talking about (which frankly I don't quite understand why there should be a law for it--or maybe you're meaning there should not be a law against it) is just the kind of slippery slope talk that could kill it.



 Well...I do see your point as well...But, I do not mean this in a smart-ass way...Isn't that a-tad selfish? I mean [as i said] there are many reasons that a person might want to 'end-it' . And I'm sure that if one comes to such a solemn decision it is just as deep felt too that person [for what ever reason] as it would be to a terminal patient.

Again I believe I said earlier that if the terminal patient bill is passed..that may open the door for others . My point being, we all should have that right.

I hope I am never at that low point in my life. But hell it could happen tomorrow ?


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## JimW (Mar 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> So we stick with the six month time frame?..OK that suits the needs /desires of some...others should still be held to the decision of ?
> 
> Why can't we just say...OK, ya want to leave this life, this earth ? Sorry you have come to that decision but....it is your decision too make ..........farewell.



I know a few people, including myself that at one time or another thought their life wasn't worth living and perhaps ending it would be better than sticking around. Based on where we're all at in our lives now, I'd say we're pretty thankful that we didn't carry through with it. I sure as heck know I am. To simply roll out the suicide red carpet for people who feel this way due to some trauma in their lives rather than trying to help them through their problems is negligible.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

JimW said:


> I know a few people, including myself that at one time or another thought their life wasn't worth living and perhaps ending it would be better than sticking around. Based on where we're all at in our lives now, I'd say we're pretty thankful that we didn't carry through with it. I sure as heck know I am. To simply roll out the suicide red carpet for people who feel this way due to some trauma in their lives rather than trying to help them through their problems is negligible.



So at one time you had the thought, and it was fine ? But now you think all others should be 'helped through their problems' ? How is it any of my business to stick my nose into someone else's situation ? You had the thought & changed your mind, so now you're speaking for someone else ?

If someone asked for my help, I would of course provide it...if that same person asked for Kevorkian's phone number ?..I'd provide that as well.


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## JimW (Mar 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> So at one time you had the thought, and it was fine ? But now you think all others should be 'helped through their problems' ? How is it any of my business to stick my nose into someone else's situation ? You had the thought & changed your mind, so now you're speaking for someone else ?
> 
> If someone asked for my help, I would of course provide it...if that same person asked for Kevorkian's phone number ?..I'd provide that as well.



Your entire post is assumptious of what I went through and how I felt, yet you say that I am speaking for someone else? I am speaking for myself and other people I know personally as well as their situations regarding this matter, so yes I can confidently speak for how they feel. If someone who is not terminally ill asked you to assist them in committing suicide and you did, well that speaks more about your character than it does anything else, not too mention it IS criminally negligible. I certainly hope your son, daughter or close friend doesn't run across someone like you when they're down on their luck with their finger on the trigger, they deserve a better chance than that. You appear to be looking for any argument you can find on this issue for whatever reason, I'm not biting. Have a good weekend.


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## Wandrin (Mar 2, 2018)

In the states where this is legal, I wonder how it plays out with the insurance companies holding a life insurance policy on the individual involved.  Insurance companies are notorious for finding reasons not to pay.  I wonder how they handle this.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

JimW said:


> Your entire post is assumptious of what I went through and how I felt, yet you say that I am speaking for someone else? I am speaking for myself and other people I know personally as well as their situations regarding this matter, so yes I can confidently speak for how they feel. If someone who is not terminally ill asked you to assist them in committing suicide and you did, well that speaks more about your character than it does anything else, not too mention it IS criminally negligible. I certainly hope your son, daughter or close friend doesn't run across someone like you when they're down on their luck with their finger on the trigger, they deserve a better chance than that. You appear to be looking for any argument you can find on this issue for whatever reason, I'm not biting. Have a good weekend.



 I'm not assuming anything...you said you were there ? How am I assuming ?

   "so yes I can confidently speak for how they feel. "

 No one can speak confidently for anyone but themselves...

 "If someone who is not terminally ill asked you to assist them in committing suicide and you did, well that speaks more about your character than it does anything else, "

 So now your argument is to attack my person...when you do not know me at all.

 And just to note...I never mentioned anything about assisting someone in suicide . I said I would provide a phone number...what they do with it is again _their_ business.


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## hearlady (Mar 2, 2018)

debbie in seattle said:


> I have always been a big advocate on this issue, but now that my husband is terminally ill and we’ll be lucky if he’s still with us in 6 months, I couldn’t imagine anything like this.   Talk is big until it’s staring you in the face.


Debbie, you're right of course. You want every second with your husband. Hope this discussion isn't too insensitive but I agree with there being an option for the reasons stated by the Canadian guidelines. Only for those reasons. 
I hope you are able to enjoy the last days with your husband and have him as long as possible.


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## Sunny (Mar 2, 2018)

> If someone asked for my help, I would of course provide it...if that  same person asked for Kevorkian's phone number ?..I'd provide that as  well.



Rgp, the trouble with that logic is that is fits very well with the scenario of a terminally ill person, or a severely handicapped person whose life has become a misery. But what about the perfectly healthy 16-year-old kid whose boyfriend has just broken up with her, and she just doesn't want to go on living any more?  Or the young man who has just realized that he is gay, and since he hangs out with a macho crowd, sees no other alternative? Or a million other possible reasons that people might (temporarily) think they just can't go on living? Depression is a common reason, although that is treatable and usually doesn't last forever.

 Do you really think all people who want to "end it" at any age and for any reason should receive assistance in doing so?  It sounds like that is what you are saying. But what about the above circumstances?


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## Traveler (Mar 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, the trouble with that logic is that is fits very well with the scenario of a terminally ill person, or a severely handicapped person whose life has become a misery. But what about the perfectly healthy 16-year-old kid whose boyfriend has just broken up with her, and she just doesn't want to go on living any more?  Or the young man who has just realized that he is gay, and since he hangs out with a macho crowd, sees no other alternative? Or a million other possible reasons that people might (temporarily) think they just can't go on living? Depression is a common reason, although that is treatable and usually doesn't last forever.
> 
> Do you really think all people who want to "end it" at any age and for any reason should receive assistance in doing so?  It sounds like that is what you are saying. But what about the above circumstances?




I, for one, do NOT advocate that anyone, especially teens and young adults, should ever have access to medically assisted suicide, if the situation is *temporary*, And, most importantly, never for such temporary situations as mentioned above.  

However, lets look at the cases of people who have broken their necks and are PERMANTLY quadriplegic.  It would be difficult to imagine any worse permanent situation. If such a person wished to go on living, fine. Give them all the support they need. 

But if a quadriplegic could not stand living like that, then I say they have a right to end the unimaginable, emotional pain.  

In my opinion, there are worse things than death, and being a quadriplegic tops the list.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, the trouble with that logic is that is fits very well with the scenario of a terminally ill person, or a severely handicapped person whose life has become a misery. But what about the perfectly healthy 16-year-old kid whose boyfriend has just broken up with her, and she just doesn't want to go on living any more?  Or the young man who has just realized that he is gay, and since he hangs out with a macho crowd, sees no other alternative? Or a million other possible reasons that people might (temporarily) think they just can't go on living? Depression is a common reason, although that is treatable and usually doesn't last forever.
> 
> Do you really think all people who want to "end it" at any age and for any reason should receive assistance in doing so?  It sounds like that is what you are saying. But what about the above circumstances?





   Again, I never said a word about assisting anyone..I said if someone I knew asked for my help BEFORE they committed the act, I would try my best to help them. But if that same person [over 21 and free to make their own decisions] {I thought that part would have been obvious} guess not ? ask for Kevorkian's phone number , and i happen to have it ? I would provide that. Not one word did I mention about actual assisting !!

  "Do you really think all people who want to "end it" at any age and for any reason should receive assistance in doing so? "

Any age ? No, I'm talking adult...Any reason ? Yes, their reasons are their's & their's alone.

I really doubt there are many [adults] that arrive at that decision , for frivolous reasons... in their mind.


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## rgp (Mar 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I, for one, do NOT advocate that anyone, especially teens and young adults, should ever have access to medically assisted suicide, if the situation is *temporary*, And, most importantly, never for such temporary situations as mentioned above.
> 
> However, lets look at the cases of people who have broken their necks and are PERMANTLY quadriplegic.  It would be difficult to imagine any worse permanent situation. If such a person wished to go on living, fine. Give them all the support they need.
> 
> ...




 Agree, 100% .....and the folks you mention really do need help ! Damn hard to do it on their own.

A friend, [more acquaintance actually] was diagnosed with a terminal disease. I was aware , many of us were. He said something 'hinting' but not absolute to me. Late the next afternoon he ended it. After,... I heard his sister went through the same thing , same disease , years earlier and he watched her [go through it] for months. He at some point told an actual friend...I'm not going through that, nor putting my family through it again....Not that it matters but [we] understood. 

 BTW...this person was one of the nicest you'd ever know !


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## Sunny (Mar 3, 2018)

> I really do not believe there should be any "qualifiers" required.I  believe any person should at any time have the ability to end their  life. Life is allot of things to allot of folks. When it stops being  what a person wants it to be. If they "want-out" ? IMO that is their  business & only their business. Sorry for them that it might come to  that, but if relief from what ever burden they are under is what they  seek & want ? Then I want it for them.



Traveler, I agree about the quadriplegic, and the terminally ill people. Or people who are suffering a miserable life due to medical reasons. They should have all the help they need in ending it, if desired.

I was responding to rgp's statement (see above) that anyone wanting help with suicide at any time, for any reason, should get it.  

But I think we're really nitpicking this subject to death. We all seem to be pretty much on the same page here.


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## Deucemoi (Mar 3, 2018)

Well I was going to post about physicians oath not to take a life and the legalities of law. However since someone posted about legal rights in some states I had a change of mind. In those states where the "right to die" has been implemented I believe it is in the states constitution of self government. This is in conflict with the federal laws and as far as I know may still be in contention. There are other instances of states rights versus federal laws that are in conflict and persons may still be prosecuted under federal laws. Most states classify suicide as taking of a human life which is defined as homicide, however many do not investigate it as such.


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## Butterfly (Mar 3, 2018)

Deucemoi said:


> Well I was going to post about physicians oath not to take a life and the legalities of law. However since someone posted about legal rights in some states I had a change of mind. In those states where the "right to die" has been implemented I believe it is in the states constitution of self government. This is in conflict with the federal laws and as far as I know may still be in contention. There are other instances of states rights versus federal laws that are in conflict and persons may still be prosecuted under federal laws. Most states classify suicide as taking of a human life which is defined as homicide, however many do not investigate it as such.



There is no federal law governing "plain ol'" murder.  Unless the crime is one that somehow involves federal jurisdiction, like killing a federal worker or killing on federal land, etc.. the laws against murder and such are strictly state laws and the feds have no jurisdiction.  States have the right to legislate assisted suicide laws and such would not conflict with federal law.


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## DaveA (Mar 3, 2018)

And how do we re-write life insurance laws and/or policies.  Believe me, I have no particular sympathy for insurance companies but thy do write policies with a pay in and payout calculation that fits most situations depending on age and health.  With all of the other normal uncertainness surrounding the length of our lives, having folks "pulling the plug" 6 months after a policy's issued (to someone, say in their 20's) is a bit of a burden the way policies are issued today.  Looks to me as if the rates would skyrocket for everyone??


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## Olivia (Mar 3, 2018)

How many people are going to use assisted suicide? And, anyway, if they were in such bad health, they probably wouldn't have been able to get life insurance in the first place. Likely than not, people would be losing the policy anyway, and I don't think the insurance companies are going to lose any money. If anything, it would be another consideration that someone in those circumstances would have to consider. I have a feeling that insurance companies have already been involved in coming up with decisions regarding this kind of situation. Might be something interesting to research.


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## MarkinPhx (Mar 3, 2018)

As far as the original question goes, I am all for the bill. The individual should have the choice to decide if it their decision is morale or not. Some of us might consider it as suicide and some of us might find it as a dignified way to end a life but I feel I don't have the right to judge how anyone decides with such a choice. Personally I would hope that I would take the choice for a merciful death but if I was actually put in such a situation I might chose differently.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 4, 2018)

People in hospice are often on pain medication which controls and eases their pain.  I know someone who was in hospice and on strong medicine about 2 years ago.  He stayed in hospice on meds until he died and was with his family and friends until the end.  I may be the odd one but I believe our time is our time and not up to us.  I have to think more on this though.  My mother also was in hospice and on fentanyl to ease her pain.  She didn't last that long and either did my friend who I mentioned earlier.  Hospice in my opinion is the right way to go.  I am speaking only of the terminally ill with 6 mos. or less left.


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## James (Mar 4, 2018)

Hospice is another alternative however the beds around here are scarce, and waiting list long. For example there one nearby that has 8 funded beds with a waiting list of 60.


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## fmdog44 (Mar 4, 2018)

I had to visit an assisted living "farm" where my father was when his Alzheimer's dictated he could no long remain at hoe. It was a vision of horror to me and that is why I call it a farm. My dad was not as sever as some there and the severe cases were horrible to witness and so I won't describe them. I am in full support of assisted death. Anything is better than what I saw. I recall reading about the British actor George Sanders leaving a suicide note when he was diagnosed and I believe he shot himself. To me when dignity exits it is then time to pass on. Mt auto mechanic calls it "The Cycle of Life" as he called it talking about his father. I asked him "what do you mean by that"? He is from Syria and he told me when we come in to this world we are 100% dependent on other for the basics of life and for some it is also holds true when we approach our deaths and so The Cycle of Life.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 4, 2018)

James said:


> Hospice is another alternative however the beds around here are scarce, and waiting list long. For example there one nearby that has 8 funded beds with a waiting list of 60.


Hospice around here is a home situation as opposed to a institutional one.  The hospice people come to your home to tend to your needs until the end.


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## rgp (Mar 4, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> I had to visit an assisted living "farm" where my father was when his Alzheimer's dictated he could no long remain at hoe. It was a vision of horror to me and that is why I call it a farm. My dad was not as sever as some there and the severe cases were horrible to witness and so I won't describe them. I am in full support of assisted death. Anything is better than what I saw. I recall reading about the British actor George Sanders leaving a suicide note when he was diagnosed and I believe he shot himself. To me when dignity exits it is then time to pass on. Mt auto mechanic calls it "The Cycle of Life" as he called it talking about his father. I asked him "what do you mean by that"? He is from Syria and he told me when we come in to this world we are 100% dependent on other for the basics of life and for some it is also holds true when we approach our deaths and so The Cycle of Life.




 I heard it said once as...

   We come into this world , toothless, bald & wearin' a diaper....and many of us leave the same way....

Dang this is gittin' depressin'....


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 4, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Hospice around here is a home situation as opposed to a institutional one.  The hospice people come to your home to tend to your needs until the end.



We have both in my area.

In this area the hospice services are based on a clients ability to pay and run from zero out of pocket up to about $7,000.00/month.


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## Traveler (Mar 4, 2018)

DaveA said:


> And how do we re-write life insurance laws and/or policies.  Believe me, I have no particular sympathy for insurance companies but thy do write policies with a pay in and payout calculation that fits most situations depending on age and health.  With all of the other normal uncertainness surrounding the length of our lives, having folks "pulling the plug" 6 months after a policy's issued (to someone, say in their 20's) is a bit of a burden the way policies are issued today.  Looks to me as if the rates would skyrocket for everyone??




 Insurance companies do NOT pay in cases of suicide.  The same applies to murder. If a spouse takes out an insurance policy on their mate, and later murders them, the insurance companies definitely do not pay out.


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## Olivia (Mar 4, 2018)

Here's something I've found regarding life insurance companies and assisted suicide.



> You might be surprised that life insurance policies (unlike most medical insurance policies that won’t cover costs associated with self-inflicted harm) issue a benefit to beneficiaries even when the insured has taken her own life. Whether the policy owner committed suicide or had a physician-assisted death wouldn’t affect the policy’s payout, provided the policy was in place for at least two years.
> 
> With both permanent life and term life insurance, the first two years of coverage are known as a “contestability” or “exclusionary” period. If you die within that period, the life insurance company will investigate your death to make sure you hadn’t committed fraud by providing inaccurate or incomplete information on your insurance application (like hiding a terminal diagnosis, severe depression, smoking, etc.).
> 
> ...


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## Ruthanne (Mar 5, 2018)

James said:


> Hospice is another alternative however the beds around here are scarce, and waiting list long. For example there one nearby that has 8 funded beds with a waiting list of 60.


Lots of Hospices where I live.  Sometimes they give you one that is run by a charitable foundation before you go to the one that you want.  That was the case with my friend.  My mom, however, went to the best place right away.


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## Sunny (Mar 5, 2018)

I don't understand why hospices got into this discussion at all.  In the states where medically assisted suicide is available, isn't it also available when a person is receiving hospice care?  I don't think it's one or the other.


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## Lara (Mar 5, 2018)

Cap'nSacto said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if people choose an assistant because they believe suicide is punishable by God. I still suspect many do, but of course, I could be wrong.


God, through scripture, doesn't say anything about punishing anyone for the decision to end one's own life as far as I know. On the other hand, He does have a little to say about whether He wants one to do that or not.

https://www.gotquestions.org/mercy-killing.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/euthanasia.html


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

Well...I'm not a "God-sorta-guy" so I believe the assistant part comes from the desire to [go] but do it correctly , completely, and with less mess. True a shotgun in the mouth will 'git'er-done' But that is traumatic for the finder,... family . 

Take myself for example...I have no family, all my local [close] friends are dead. If I were to make such a decision ? I really wouldn't want to do it, and just lay here till the mailman notices the smell. 

Using 'assisted',... someone knows your plans...and will call the undertaker when the deed is done.


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## JimW (Mar 5, 2018)

rgp said:


> Well...I'm not a "God-sorta-guy" so I believe the assistant part comes from the desire to [go] but do it correctly , completely, and with less mess. True a shotgun in the mouth will 'git'er-done' But that is traumatic for the finder,... family .
> 
> *Take myself for example...I have no family, all my local [close] friends are dead. *If I were to make such a decision ? I really wouldn't want to do it, and just lay here till the mailman notices the smell.
> 
> Using 'assisted',... someone knows your plans...and will call the undertaker when the deed is done.



That might explain your willingness to allow people who are not terminally ill to commit suicide without anyone attempting to stop it. I seriously doubt anyone would allow a loved one or close friend to go down that road without trying to stop them with whatever means possible. Then again, I could be wrong.


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## fmdog44 (Mar 5, 2018)

If God is a loving god why then do so many millions suffer so much near the end of the lives? The word "cruelty" was the only thing I could feel while seeing the patients in hospice. So many appeared to be put in a stage of limbo between life and death much like a torture chamber. Suicide is a gift to many of them because if you don't know you are alive what then is the difference between life and death?


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## Don M. (Mar 5, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> If God is a loving god why then do so many millions suffer so much near the end of the lives? The word "cruelty" was the only thing I could feel while seeing the patients in hospice. So many appeared to be put in a stage of limbo between life and death much like a torture chamber. Suicide is a gift to many of them because if you don't know you are alive what then is the difference between life and death?



Personally, I think the treatment of the terminally ill, in this country, is just an extension of our entire Health Care System....in that, it is all about the Money.  Modern medicine can keep a brainwave and a heartbeat going for weeks or months...and the doctors/hospitals, etc., reap a huge Bonus for doing so.  It costs thousands of dollars, per day, to keep a person technically alive, and most of that is sheer Profit to our providers.  About the Only way for an individual to avoid this nonsense is to have a clear and concise set of legal documents prepared, ahead of time....powers of attorney, Do Not Resuscitate, etc.  IMO, it should be deemed Cruel and Unusual Punishment to keep a person hooked up to machines, and doped up with drugs, just to extend the inevitable as long as possible.  Present policies regarding the terminally ill are just another example of why the U.S. HealthCare Costs are twice as high as most of the rest of the civilized world.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

JimW said:


> That might explain your willingness to allow people who are not terminally ill to commit suicide without anyone attempting to stop it. I seriously doubt anyone would allow a loved one or close friend to go down that road without trying to stop them with whatever means possible. Then again, I could be wrong.



Well....yet again...I never said said I wouldn't help them {IF} they asked for my help. My "willingness" to "allow" is because I tend to mind my own business....So indeed you are wrong.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> If God is a loving god why then do so many millions suffer so much near the end of the lives? The word "cruelty" was the only thing I could feel while seeing the patients in hospice. So many appeared to be put in a stage of limbo between life and death much like a torture chamber. Suicide is a gift to many of them because if you don't know you are alive what then is the difference between life and death?



Agree 100%


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

Don M. said:


> Personally, I think the treatment of the terminally ill, in this country, is just an extension of our entire Health Care System....in that, it is all about the Money.  Modern medicine can keep a brainwave and a heartbeat going for weeks or months...and the doctors/hospitals, etc., reap a huge Bonus for doing so.  It costs thousands of dollars, per day, to keep a person technically alive, and most of that is sheer Profit to our providers.  About the Only way for an individual to avoid this nonsense is to have a clear and concise set of legal documents prepared, ahead of time....powers of attorney, Do Not Resuscitate, etc.  IMO, it should be deemed Cruel and Unusual Punishment to keep a person hooked up to machines, and doped up with drugs, just to extend the inevitable as long as possible.  Present policies regarding the terminally ill are just another example of why the U.S. HealthCare Costs are twice as high as most of the rest of the civilized world.




 Indeed, once we get to that stage, we become a cash-cow to the medical industry. Which is why IMO assisted suicide is illegal in the first place. The medical industry has too many politicians in their pocket, perhaps particularly big-pharma.


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## Olivia (Mar 5, 2018)

I think assisted suicide is still illegal in most U.S. states because of the worry that the elderly with expensive illnesses may take the suicide route for their family, to not burden them and/or having eventually nothing to leave to them by the time they die.  And also grown children, etc., taking advantage of their elderly relatives and talking them into suicide because they want the inheritance.That's really the main problem, I think. And, yes, there is the religious angle, too. 

It is true that many families go bankrupt because of medical costs. So more incentive to go the suicide route even when there's still some quality of life there. Death is so final.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

You make some good points...and may be exactly right ? But I still think the 'fine-print' should be able to be worked out. But I still smell some medical industry greed in there.

And you are right...death does take up allot of our time....


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## Sunny (Mar 5, 2018)

> If God is a loving god why then do so many millions suffer so much near  the end of the lives? The word "cruelty" was the only thing I could feel  while seeing the patients in hospice. So many appeared to be put in a  stage of limbo between life and death much like a torture chamber.  Suicide is a gift to many of them because if you don't know you are  alive what then is the difference between life and death?



I agree also, Farmdog.  

Somebody mentioned "the religious angle."  I feel very strongly that a person's religion should dictate the decisions he/she makes for him/herself.  Not for someone else.  In other words, the state has no business passing laws based on the religion of just some of the people living there.  Separation is still a very good idea.


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 5, 2018)

A neighbor suffered with emphysema for a number of years, then she was told she had a mass in one of her lungs. She refused to have surgery because she was too tired and miserable with the emphysema and she wanted to die. 

Her daughter is a close friend, and she said her mother had stockpiled enough drugs to kill herself if it ever got too bad for her to go on. We both thought it was her decision and no one else needed to be involved or had the right to interfere.

Her son knew how she felt about going on living, but he talked her into being hospitalized and was working on getting her to consent to surgery when she died suddenly. I've always figured she took her pills with her when she went to the hospital and she finally decided it was time.

I doubt we ever have assisted death in this state, and that means people have to take care of it themselves. If I'm ever sick or in pain, I will opt to do what she probably did.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

The trouble is...if you have a sudden event..and are hospitalized for it...you might linger in there for a damn eternity. They won't release you, and your too sick / weak to escape....scary crap.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I agree also, Farmdog.
> 
> Somebody mentioned "the religious angle."  I feel very strongly that a person's religion should dictate the decisions he/she makes for him/herself.  Not for someone else.  In other words, the state has no business passing laws based on the religion of just some of the people living there.  Separation is still a very good idea.



 I for one would / do, support total separation. We all MUST live under our government...religion should be only by ones choice...and for oneself .


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 5, 2018)

rgp said:


> I for one would / do, support total separation. We all MUST live under our government...religion should be only by ones choice...and for oneself .



Using badly translated, carefully handpicked and outdated scripture to decide when someone who is in agony gets to die seems like the definition of religious tyranny.


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## Lara (Mar 5, 2018)

Don M. said:
			
		

> I think the treatment of the terminally ill, in this country, is just an extension of our entire Health Care System....in that, it is all about the Money. Modern medicine can keep a brainwave and a heartbeat going for weeks or months...and the doctors/hospitals, etc., reap a huge Bonus for doing so. It costs thousands of dollars, per day, to keep a person technically alive, and most of that is sheer Profit to our providers...


I worked in a hospital for 8 years and I believe there is actually a rush to get patients to recover as quickly as possible and move them out to free-up beds for incoming patients needing procedures. If a hospital is looking at it from a purely monetary standpoint, and unfortunately some do, procedures bring in more money than those patients in a vegetative state so that would also be a reason not to prolong the vegetative state.



Don M. said:


> ... it should be deemed Cruel and Unusual Punishment to keep a person hooked up to machines, and doped up with drugs, just to extend the inevitable as long as possible.


...and also, it might be considered "playing God" to try to prolong a life with man-made machines and drugs  when said life is clearly intended by God to end according to His perfect timing. I certainly think we should try to save lives if there is a glimmer of hope that they will recover, but when a doctor deems it hopeless then it's time to let go.


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## Olivia (Mar 6, 2018)

Thank you, Lara. In my opinion you said it just the way it needed to be said. I believe it with all my heart. My mom was in the hospital 2-1/2 months. And if she could have been moved to home, she would have been, which I promised her she would come home, which makes me so sad I couldn't make good on that promise. The nurses were so good but overburden. We eventually moved her to a new hospital in the same building complex where when I walked into her room there would be a nurse smiling walking out and she would be on her bed smiling. The thing is because of her tracheotomy to have a better breathing device she couldn't talk (which made me very sad) but somehow she was able to tell the nurses what she wanted, and they told me how they prayed with her in the night. Those were angel nurses in that facility. I don't know how it is there now, but nurses are really just so much overworked.


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## Butterfly (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> I for one would / do, support total separation. We all MUST live under our government...religion should be only by ones choice...and for oneself .



I also support total separation of church and state.  I, for one, would never attempt to impose my religious beliefs on another's behavior or choices, and believe it is wrong to do so.

HOWEVER, we will never have total separation of church and state as long as we continue to vote for politicians who believe they DO have the right to impose their beliefs upon others, and we will continue to see that happening regarding issues such as abortion, LGBT rights, assisted suicide, etc., as long as voters continue to vote for those politicians.


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## Butterfly (Mar 6, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Hospice around here is a home situation as opposed to a institutional one.  The hospice people come to your home to tend to your needs until the end.



They do that here, too, unless they can't manage it at home.  In my niece's case, they could not manage her at home at home very near the end so they had to admit her to a hospice unit.


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 6, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I also support total separation of church and state.  I, for one, would never attempt to impose my religious beliefs on another's behavior or choices, and believe it is wrong to do so.
> 
> HOWEVER, we will never have total separation of church and state as long as we continue to vote for politicians who believe they DO have the right to impose their beliefs upon others, and we will continue to see that happening regarding issues such as abortion, LGBT rights, assisted suicide, etc., as long as voters continue to vote for those politicians.



Hear Hear


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## Olivia (Mar 6, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Hear Hear



I second that motion!


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> Well....yet again...I never said said I wouldn't help them {IF} they asked for my help. My "willingness" to "allow" is because I tend to mind my own business....So indeed you are wrong.



Geez you're confusing. You've stated many times in this thread that you are more than willing to allow anyone who wanted to end their life the right to do so, no matter the circumstances behind their thinking, with no questions asked. Yes you've stated that you would help them if they asked you, but if they didn't ask for your help you would give them your blessing in ending their life without trying to intervene by any means necessary. I'm not stating that you claim any different than that. I believe we're on the same page there, yes?

My line of questioning is to attempt to find out how a fellow human being can put such a low value on another human being's life. Your statement about being all alone and having no relatives or close friends seemed like it could be a possibility for that line of thinking. You see, it's not a normal train of thought nor is it morally responsible for one human being to be so willing to allow another human being to end their life without at least attempting to prevent it. Could you really stand by and do nothing as someone ends their life because they're boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse has left them for someone else, or what if they get the wrong side dish with their meal? Where do you draw the line? I'd like to know where that train of thought comes from.


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## Sunny (Mar 6, 2018)

Yes, clearly supporting separation of church and state means voting against those who are using people and their religious beliefs to get votes.

The fact is, most of those politicians couldn't care less about religion. And the religious right know it, but are happy to put those people in office in the hope that some of their ideas will take over.  They are both
using each other to get what they want.  And never mind what the rest of us want!


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

JimW said:


> Geez you're confusing. You've stated many times in this thread that you are more than willing to allow anyone who wanted to end their life the right to do so, no matter the circumstances behind their thinking, with no questions asked. Yes you've stated that you would help them if they asked you, but if they didn't ask for your help you would give them your blessing in ending their life without trying to intervene by any means necessary. I'm not stating that you claim any different than that. I believe we're on the same page there, yes?
> 
> My line of questioning is to attempt to find out how a fellow human being can put such a low value on another human being's life. Your statement about being all alone and having no relatives or close friends seemed like it could be a possibility for that line of thinking. You see, it's not a normal train of thought nor is it morally responsible for one human being to be so willing to allow another human being to end their life without at least attempting to prevent it. Could you really stand by and do nothing as someone ends their life because they're boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse has left them for someone else, or what if they get the wrong side dish with their meal? Where do you draw the line? I'd like to know where that train of thought comes from.




Not confusing at all. Very simple really, I draw the line at minding my own business.

"My line of questioning is to attempt to find out how a fellow human being can put such a low value on another human being's life. "

I don't put the the value on this persons life....they do. If they decide they want out of this life, out of this world, that is their business only.


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Yes, clearly supporting separation of church and state means voting against those who are using people and their religious beliefs to get votes.
> 
> The fact is, most of those politicians couldn't care less about religion. And the religious right know it, but are happy to put those people in office in the hope that some of their ideas will take over.  They are both
> using each other to get what they want.  And never mind what the rest of us want!



Pipe dream I know...but wouldn't it be nice if we could sweep them all out & start over?

But ya know what?...in short order we would be right back where we are.

To many control freaks in our society...They know all there is to know about how all of us should live. And they cannot wait to impose their way on us.


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## James (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> Not confusing at all. Very simple really, I draw the line at minding my own business.
> 
> "My line of questioning is to attempt to find out how a fellow human being can put such a low value on another human being's life. "
> 
> I don't put the the value on this persons life....they do. If they decide they want out of this life, out of this world, that is their business only.



I have intervened many times during my career with people that were hell bent on killing themselves for many reasons outside of what this topic was originally covering.

In those cases it was going to be a permanent solution for a temporary problem.  The intervention allowed them to get the help they needed to address whatever problem(s) they had and move on with their lives.

Losing someone to death naturally or in tragic circumstances such as an auto crash etc is one thing, but the devastation that suicide brings and leaves on surviving friends and family is a torture like no other.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> Not confusing at all. Very simple really, I draw the line at minding my own business.
> 
> "My line of questioning is to attempt to find out how a fellow human being can put such a low value on another human being's life. "
> 
> *I don't put the the value on this persons life....they do. If they decide they want out of this life, out of this world, that is their business only.*



That's where you're 100% incorrect. Any non-terminally ill person who is willing to end their life is not in the proper frame of mind to make such a judgement as to what their life is worth. They are usually suffering from depression or some other mental disease. No mentally sane person has ever woken up one morning and decided to off themselves, just because. It simply doesn't happen. Which is why allowing someone in this state to take their own life is not "minding your own business", it's negligent at best. And that's why you will never see any such law allowing a person who is not terminally ill to commit suicide.


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

JimW said:


> That's where you're 100% incorrect. Any non-terminally ill person who is willing to end their life is not in the proper frame of mind to make such a judgement as to what their life is worth. They are usually suffering from depression or some other mental disease. No mentally sane person has ever woken up one morning and decided to off themselves, just because. It simply doesn't happen. Which is why allowing someone in this state to take their own life is not "minding your own business", it's negligent at best. And that's why you will never see any such law allowing a person who is not terminally ill to commit suicide.




   You live your life as you choose...& I'll do the same.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> You live your life as you choose...& I'll do the same.



I didn't realize this discussion had any bearing on that. But okay. Cheers!


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

James said:


> I have intervened many times during my career with people that were hell bent on killing themselves for many reasons outside of what this topic was originally covering.
> 
> In those cases it was going to be a permanent solution for a temporary problem.  The intervention allowed them to get the help they needed to address whatever problem(s) they had and move on with their lives.
> 
> Losing someone to death naturally or in tragic circumstances such as an auto crash etc is one thing, but the devastation that suicide brings and leaves on surviving friends and family is a torture like no other.




   You intervened as a 'responding officer' ? That is entirely different, that is part of your job.

  Pick any of the ones you have been involved in....am I suppose to stick my nose in ?  NO!

  That person should have the right to do so, you helped them change their mind , Fine 

  When the 'event' was over...I'd buy you a coffee [& a doughnut]  for a job well done.

 The only way I could be involved in any of those cases is as a voter. I would vote to give that person the right to do as they choose .

 It's really moot anyway, when ya think about it...I mean if they are successful?....it's all done. Permission not needed. If they try & fail?...so we what arrest them, and add to their misery?


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

JimW said:


> I didn't realize this discussion had any bearing on that. But okay. Cheers!



That is basically what the whole thing has been about. Live life as one chooses, and end it if one chooses. It couldn't be any more simple.

Back to the 'fine' point...if one is terminally ill? And chooses to fight it hammer & tong..Great ! [assuming I know this person] How can i help. But if this same person decides he is not up for a battle, and says "will you look up Kavorkian's phone number for me"? I'll do that as well. What he wants is what matters...not what i want.

I lost two friends too cancer, one in 2001 another in 2013. 

My friend Jim was the first , prostate . He did all the opinions , he said face to face to me , over a beer & a shot..."Buck I'm not going to fight it, I've seen what that does" "I'm not going through that" Let nature take it's course. I said OK, what do you want from me? Take care of Jamie [his dog] I will. That was in April 1998 he lived till Nov 2001. {He beat the six month prognosis by a bunch}

My friend Carl, was diagnosed in Sept 2012 stage 4 lung. He asked what i thought. Jim was his friend as well. I said what ever you want Buck, I'll do what ever I can. He decided on chemo ,not much really that i could do his wife took him to his treatments, he did not do well. He died just after midnight January 2013.

BTW we all called each other "Buck" there were 5 originals...3 of us left.

<caveat> Hope this isn't too much info ? Just explaining my position as I've lived it.


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> That is basically what the whole thing has been about. Live life as one chooses, and end it if one chooses. It couldn't be any more simple



Problem is that it's not that simple when taking on this complex subject. One thing I've found through my years is that nothing is as cut and dry as it appears on the surface. So many different people in different situations that it's impossible to use cookie cutter law on an issue as complex as this and with the consequence being so final. There's no coming back from this decision. It's great to live life as one chooses, until it starts affecting other people, especially in such grave and permanent ways. 

My version of your saying would be more like this: Life life as you choose, but with respect and kindness to your fellow man. Treat people the way you want to be treated and help those in need when you can. Leave a lasting impression because it will be over before you know it.

Sorry for the loss of your friends, losing anyone close to you is always difficult. Not too much info at all.

And seriously, cheers!


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## rgp (Mar 6, 2018)

JimW said:


> Problem is that it's not that simple when taking on this complex subject. One thing I've found through my years is that nothing is as cut and dry as it appears on the surface. So many different people in different situations that it's impossible to use cookie cutter law on an issue as complex as this and with the consequence being so final. There's no coming back from this decision. It's great to live life as one chooses, until it starts affecting other people, especially in such grave and permanent ways.
> 
> My version of your saying would be more like this: Life life as you choose, but with respect and kindness to your fellow man. Treat people the way you want to be treated and help those in need when you can. Leave a lasting impression because it will be over before you know it.
> 
> ...




 I think we are closer to being on the same page than you think ?

 The difference being, for me if person is so far 'down' to [that] point...No I don't think he/she should be asked to consider my feelings, or anyone else's . He/she has enough on their shoulders already. Again my words to them, my feelings on it are...Do what {YOU} need for you....I think myself & the others should be thinking about [them] & what they need.

IMO, being at the brink of suicide has to be about the worse place any of us can be. I can't even image, I also cannot imaging me trying to make decisions for that person at that time.

Thank you for the kind words above........


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## JimW (Mar 6, 2018)

rgp said:


> I think we are closer to being on the same page than you think ?
> 
> The difference being, for me if person is so far 'down' to [that] point...No I don't think he/she should be asked to consider my feelings, or anyone else's . He/she has enough on their shoulders already. Again my words to them, my feelings on it are...Do what {YOU} need for you....I think myself & the others should be thinking about [them] & what they need.
> 
> ...



:smile-new:


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## Olivia (Mar 6, 2018)

Okay, it's looking good here. The state House has approved the Bill and the state Senate is expected to also. We'll see.

Here's some of what the Bill contains from today's local paper.



> Under the procedures in the bill, patients would be required to submit two verbal requests a minimum of 20 days apart and one written request to their attending physicians for a prescription.
> 
> The written request would have to be signed by two witnesses who can attest the patient is of sound mind, and is acting voluntarily. One of the witnesses cannot be a relative and one witness cannot be someone who stands to inherit anything upon the patient’s death
> .
> The bill also requires counseling from a psychiatrist, psychologist or clinical social worker after two physicians confirm the patient’s diagnosis, prognosis and competence.


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## Sunny (Mar 6, 2018)

One thing I'm wondering about:  Since several states have approved medically assisted suicide, most have not, would the patient have to be a resident of one of those states, or does it refer to the location of the hospital?


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## Olivia (Mar 6, 2018)

I don't know for sure, but a woman moved to Oregon because of their Death with Dignity law. She had to establish residency there. She had brain cancer and had a prognosis of six months to live. Very sad. She was only 29 and had been married for only a year and they were just planning to start a family. 

Google Brittany Maynard to get her story.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 6, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I don't understand why hospices got into this discussion at all.  In the states where medically assisted suicide is available, isn't it also available when a person is receiving hospice care?  I don't think it's one or the other.


I mentioned it because it is an alternative to assisted suicide IMHO.  Threads will stray .. I do see it as one or the other.  I would not go for assisted suicide but rather hospice.


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 7, 2018)

My mother decided she would rather die than live in the nursing home my sister tricked her into after a fall. The nursing home had catheterized her and in the process they gave her a terrible infection. She told the people at the nursing home to call hospice. A hospice worker arrived, gave her a big shot of morphine and she was dead within about five minutes.

Not sure in Mom's case hospice was an alternative to medically assisted death.


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## Sunny (Mar 7, 2018)

I don't think it's an alternative, Ruthanne.  Within a hospice setting, there are probably many choices that people have.

Obviously, anyone who doesn't want medically assisted death doesn't have to have it. That would be murder!


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## Butterfly (Mar 7, 2018)

Sunny, I don't think it is exactly an "alternative," either.  It is a way of managing the end as it comes, not as a way out with dignity and on your own terms.


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## Sunny (Mar 8, 2018)

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20150516/MAGAZINE/305169982

This article makes it pretty clear that in states where physican-assisted death is legal, it is available in hospice settings.  So clearly, hospice is not an "alternative."

As I said before, this is only relevant for those patients who want it. For anyone whose religion or personal philosophy precludes it, it doesn't even enter the picture.

I would be curious to know, however, why anyone would prefer a long, protracted, painful, undignified death to a quick and painless one. (Of course, assuming that the patient is fed up with suffering, and is not
going to get any better.)  If the only problem is psychological depression, that's different. That can be treated and managed. I'm talking about terminal physical illness.  Why be against medical help in finally ending it?


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 8, 2018)

We can play with semantics all we like, but hospice killed my mother. Simple as that. I'm not objecting because that's what she wanted and I truly believe it was for the best. She was not terminally ill, but she was hurt and angry at my sister's betrayal and she was miserable physically because the "health care facility" (using that term charitably) that gave her the infection was also unable to treat it. No surprise there.

Mom lived in one of those Midwestern states that will probably be among the last to consider letting terminally ill people choose to die rather than prolonging their agony.


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## James (Mar 8, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> We can play with semantics all we like, but hospice killed my mother. Simple as that. I'm not objecting because that's what she wanted and I truly believe it was for the best. She was not terminally ill, but she was hurt and angry at my sister's betrayal and she was miserable physically because the "health care facility" (using that term charitably) that gave her the infection was also unable to treat it. No surprise there.
> 
> Mom lived in one of those Midwestern states that will probably be among the last to consider letting terminally ill people choose to die rather than prolonging their agony.



Before it became "legal" here it was a well known fact that it was a given that if you went into hospice care this was available for you if you wanted it.


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## Smiling Jane (Mar 9, 2018)

I got this today and thought it was interesting, a husband and wife who opted for medical termination together.

https://sharewisdom.tv/living-dying-love-story-documentary/


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## Linda W. (Mar 10, 2018)

I think that more people would try to wait it out if they had that kind of option, just to know it's there is comforting.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 13, 2018)

Should hospice be 'no care' including saline solution if patient can't drink or eat? How long should it take a person to die a 'natural' death into today's society. I know one person put in hospice had all treatment including non medicated ivs and it took days of labored breathing from no ventilator and lots of pain medication. Is a person struggling to breath or gasping for air for days humane even though 'asleep'?


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## Cap'nSacto (Mar 13, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> Should hospice be 'no care' including saline solution if patient can't drink or eat? How long should it take a person to die a 'natural' death into today's society. I know one person put in hospice had all treatment including non medicated ivs and it took days of labored breathing from no ventilator and lots of pain medication. Is a person struggling to breath or gasping for air for days humane even though 'asleep'?



Yeah, that's where the "do no harm" part of the physician's oath is up for debate. What does more harm, a so-called natural death or a mercy killing?


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## Sunny (Mar 13, 2018)

Definitely the so-called "natural death" does more harm.


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## Butterfly (Mar 13, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> Should hospice be 'no care' including saline solution if patient can't drink or eat? How long should it take a person to die a 'natural' death into today's society. I know one person put in hospice had all treatment including non medicated ivs and it took days of labored breathing from no ventilator and lots of pain medication. Is a person struggling to breath or gasping for air for days humane even though 'asleep'?



I've known several people who went into hospice care, either at home or in hospital, and they chose the level of care they would receive, i.e., with or without ventilator, etc.


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## Olivia (Mar 13, 2018)

My friend went through hell with her mother dying at home. Her mother kept saying "help me, help me". And when she went out of the room and the next time she went back, her mom was dead. Hospice is not free. Even home hospice costs lots of money. That is not say that her mom should have had medically induced suicide. Her mom didn't want that, When her mom was first diagnosed with a tumor in her lung and although she didn't like to see doctors, she said that she would do anything because she didn't want to die. Even at 89 she didn't want to die. No matter how you look at it, dying is tough, and especially for the surviving families. Hospice is not free or cheap even with insurance and especially not even with Medicare. There's not enough thought in our culture about death and what it takes to go through it.


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## Butterfly (Mar 15, 2018)

Actually, hospice is usually free through your insurance.  It was free for my niece and also free for my two friends through Medicare and their supplement; it would have been free for my mother, but she died two days before they were supposed to start coming.  And one good thing about  hospice is once you enter it hospice takes care of the cost of all your meds.

I've never heard of hospice being expensive.  Maybe it is if you don't have insurance or decent coverage.

This is from the Medicare website:

*If you're in a Medicare Advantage Plan or other Medicare health plan*

 Once your hospice benefit starts, Original Medicare will cover  everything you need related to your terminal illness. Original Medicare  will cover these services even if you choose to remain in a Medicare  Advantage Plan or other Medicare health plan. If you were in a Medicare  Advantage Plan before starting hospice care, you can stay in that plan,  as long as you pay your plan’s premiums.
 If you stay in your Medicare Advantage Plan, you can choose to get  services not related to your terminal illness from either providers in  your plan’s network or other Medicare providers.
 If you choose to leave hospice care, your Medicare Advantage Plan won't start again until the first of the following month.


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## Olivia (Mar 29, 2018)

> The Hawaii Senate has approved a measure that would legalize medical aid-in-dying.
> House bill 2739, also known as "Our Care, Our Choice Bill," is now heading to the Governor's office for final approval. All 25 state senators were present and voted on the bill. The final vote was 23 in favor, and 2 opposed.
> It earlier passed the House and several key committees and some lawmakers say that's because of the numerous safeguards that have been put in place.



The governor already said he would sign the bill into law.

It gives me chicken skin.


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## Linda (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm for it for sure.  I think it should be 12 months like Lon said and not 6.


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## Butterfly (Mar 30, 2018)

As long as the patient must make the decision for himself/herself, I am strongly in favor of assisted suicide for the terminally ill.  I do not think society has a right to force someone to go all the way through an agonizing, inevitable death if the person does not choose to do so.  Where does society think it gets the right to insist that one live on in terrible, intractable pain if there is a humane option?  I don't see where it is any of society's business to make it illegal for a person to choose a peaceful, humane death over an excruciating one. How do we get that right to make that decision for others??


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 30, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> As long as the patient must make the decision for himself/herself, I am strongly in favor of assisted suicide for the terminally ill. I do not think society has a right to force someone to go all the way through an agonizing, inevitable death if the person does not choose to do so. Where does society think it gets the right to insist that one live on in terrible, intractable pain if there is a humane option? I don't see where it is any of society's business to make it illegal for a person to choose a peaceful, humane death over an excruciating one. How do we get that right to make that decision for others??



I agree.

It should be a right for each of us to request that final prescription.


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## john19485 (Mar 30, 2018)

Take it from someone who knows , a gun barrel does not taste good .



rgp said:


> Well...I'm not a "God-sorta-guy" so I believe the assistant part comes from the desire to [go] but do it correctly , completely, and with less mess. True a shotgun in the mouth will 'git'er-done' But that is traumatic for the finder,... family .
> 
> Take myself for example...I have no family, all my local [close] friends are dead. If I were to make such a decision ? I really wouldn't want to do it, and just lay here till the mailman notices the smell.
> 
> Using 'assisted',... someone knows your plans...and will call the undertaker when the deed is done.


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