# Drone pilots are showing signs of PTSD and many are quitting!



## Ralphy1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Killing from afar that seems like a video game has taken a toll on involved Air Force personnel, especially when civilians are blown away.  Perhaps this new method of warfare is not the panacea the U.S. had hoped for to avoid any blood and gore on our side...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

... or perhaps the current generation of warriors are just not cut out for that kind of work ...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 18, 2015)

Guess maybe some people don't get a shiver up their leg from taking a life..


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Guess maybe some people don't get a shiver up their leg from taking a life..



That's very true, and especially when it's justified. When it comes down to a situation where it's you or them, only the saints and martyrs feel remorse for acting to protect their own lives and those of others. 

I won't say you don't feel the physical after-effects - just that you won't beat yourself up mentally for the rest of your life. That isn't what true warriors do.


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## Shalimar (Jun 18, 2015)

I deal/dealt with elite warriors on a regular basis, while not all of them exhibit signs of PTSD, none of them escape without mental or emotional scars, except of course, the psychopaths. Psychopaths are often among the best soldiers, organized, fearless, not hindered in any way by constraints of empathy or conscience. They will definitely get the job done, providing you don't object to their often vicious tactics, or their penchant for often removing even their friends/allies if it suits them.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> That's very true, and especially when it's justified. When it comes down to a situation where it's you or them, only the saints and martyrs feel remorse for acting to protect their own lives and those of others.
> 
> I won't say you don't feel the physical after-effects - just that you won't beat yourself up mentally for the rest of your life. That isn't what true warriors do.



There are a lot of people there for "a" job and/or resume time for another job. They are also smart enough to see the repetitive nature of their jobs and/or the lack of impact or results.

 They are exactly that-NOT a career or true warrior.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> ... Psychopaths are often among the best soldiers, organized, fearless, not hindered in any way by constraints of empathy or conscience. They will definitely get the job done, providing you don't object to their often vicious tactics, or their penchant for often removing even their friends/allies if it suits them.



More like high-functioning sociopaths, no? 

The vicious tactics - that's something that has bothered me most of my life. Not the employment of them (when necessary), but the brouhaha raised by the pacifists and the liberals. It's like that line in the movie _A Few Good Men_ - 



> I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man  who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I  provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.





WhatInThe said:


> There are a lot of people there for "a" job and/or resume time for another job. They are also smart enough to see the repetitive nature of their jobs and/or the lack of impact or results.
> 
> They are exactly that-NOT a career or true warrior.



Quite true.


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## Butterfly (Jun 18, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Killing from afar that seems like a video game has taken a toll on involved Air Force personnel, especially when civilians are blown away.  Perhaps this new method of warfare is not the panacea the U.S. had hoped for to avoid any blood and gore on our side...



Gotta be a hell of a lot easier than hand-to-hand fighting up close and personal with a bayonet!


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> Gotta be a hell of a lot easier than hand-to-hand fighting up close and personal with a bayonet!



Historically it seems we're going further and further away from hand-to-hand combat and into death-by-remote-control-robots. 

Maybe that's a good thing - I don't know ... now if the _robots_ could all fight each _other_ that would be great! :encouragement:


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## QuickSilver (Jun 18, 2015)

> The vicious tactics - that's something that has bothered me most of my life. Not the employment of them (when necessary), but the brouhaha raised by the pacifists and the liberals. It's like that line in the movie _A Few Good Men_ - [/qoute]
> 
> So what is it about Conservatives that makes them vicious, and callous?     Is there honor in blood lust?


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## Shalimar (Jun 18, 2015)

QS, I think for some, the end justifies the means?


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So what is it about Conservatives that makes them vicious, and callous?     Is there honor in blood lust?



I would call them "realistic". 

Honor and blood-lust are two VERY disparate thoughts, although it is true that at times they have joined together. 



Shalimar said:


> QS, I think for some, the end justifies the means?



To put it simply - if someone is trying to kill me or mine, I will try my hardest to kill them first. By _any_ means. So yes, the end in that case would require (but perhaps not legally justify) the means.

It's like that old joke about a Conservative just being a Liberal who was mugged - in order to hold certain views you had to have experienced certain scenarios in your life. Otherwise there is no shared frame of reference.


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## Debby (Jun 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> ... or perhaps the current generation of warriors are just not cut out for that kind of work ...




Is anybody 'cut out for killing people'?


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## Debby (Jun 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I would call them "realistic".
> 
> Honor and blood-lust are two VERY disparate thoughts, although it is true that at times they have joined together.
> 
> ...




Could that be an oversimplification of war in general?  Like who was trying to kill 'you' when the USA invaded Iraq?  Or who was trying to kill who when the Ukrainians decided to stage a coup and then murdered those 45 protestors in Odessa?  How many wars has the USA been involved in in the last twenty five years and how many times were your citizens attacked?  And before you answer, just remember that Obama drew his 'line in the sand' with Syria and was probably days away from attacking until Russia mediated and yet Syria hadn't attacked you at all.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 18, 2015)

It's a different time, it's a different enemy, it's a completely different technology, but I don't think our young men and women are any less courage than their predecessors.


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## Shalimar (Jun 18, 2015)

With respect, Phil, I have personally experienced multiple scenarios of extreme violence in my life, some of it life-threatening in the extreme, yet my response has been to increase my liberal stance. Clearly there are other factors that come into play around this contentious issue.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

Debby said:


> Is anybody 'cut out for killing people'?



Some more so than others, I believe. 



Debby said:


> Could that be an oversimplification of war in general?  Like who was trying to kill 'you' when the USA invaded Iraq?  Or who was trying to kill who when the Ukrainians decided to stage a coup and then murdered those 45 protestors in Odessa?  How many wars has the USA been involved in in the last twenty five years and how many times were your citizens attacked?  And before you answer, just remember that Obama drew his 'line in the sand' with Syria and was probably days away from attacking until Russia mediated and yet Syria hadn't attacked you at all.



I'm not judging the right or wrong of a _country_ - I'm talking about what constitutes the physical, mental and emotional abilities of _individual warriors_. A warrior has no choice but to obey their commander, whether the orders they receive are moral or not. 

It's what they do once they are in a combat situation, for whatever reasons, that I'm interested in here - not politics.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> It's a different time, it's a different enemy, it's a completely different technology, but I don't think our young men and women are any lees courage as their predecessors.



Maybe it's because there are far less of them now, thus they will make up a higher percentage; maybe it's because of their more liberal upbringings; but whatever the reason I think there is a far higher number of those who object to killing.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 18, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, Phil, I have personally experienced multiple scenarios of extreme violence in my life, some of it life-threatening in the extreme, yet my response has been to increase my liberal stance. Clearly there are other factors that come into play around this contentious issue.



No doubt. I realize I'm only aiming at one factor, but it's one that resonates with my background of martial arts. 

It would be interesting to hear how you became _more_ liberal after your trials and travails, though.


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## Warrigal (Jun 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> ... or perhaps the current generation of warriors are just not cut out for that kind of work ...



An old friend of ours, a Kiwi and real diamond in the rough, was haunted by memories of flying just one bombing mission over Germany at the end of WW II. He was troubled by the children who were under the bombs. 

Dealing death at a distance can be just as disturbing to the mind as hand to hand combat . At least the latter can be justified by the 'kill or be killed' maxim. Harder to do when you are ordered to kill unknown people at a  distance. Worse when it becomes clear that the wrong target was hit.


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## AZ Jim (Jun 18, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Maybe it's because there are far less of them now, thus they will make up a higher percentage; maybe it's because of their more liberal upbringings; but whatever the reason I think there is a far higher number of those who object to killing.



It would be a good thing for the world if everyone objected to killing.


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## Warrigal (Jun 18, 2015)

"A journey of a thousand miles begin with a single step" - Chairman Mao

"From little things, big things grow" - Paul Kelly


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 19, 2015)

There is a high for some in war and killing.  Just read "American Sniper" written by Chris Kyle.  He loved war and he loved killing, and he was not an anomoly as many of the SEAlS and guys from other branches couldn't wait to "get some."  Maybe it it is a good thing to have a military and continuous war to allow these guys a place to legally exercise their violent impulses...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 19, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> ... Dealing death at a distance can be just as disturbing to the mind as hand to hand combat . At least the latter can be justified by the 'kill or be killed' maxim. Harder to do when you are ordered to kill unknown people at a  distance. Worse when it becomes clear that the wrong target was hit.



That's true. But then facing an assailant with a knife can be more terrifying than one with a gun - it's a much closer encounter. Certainly eliminating the wrong target can be troublesome to the mind - maybe that's why they use the sterile term "collateral damage". 



AZ Jim said:


> It would be a good thing for the world if everyone objected to killing.



It would, but just like the idea of "improving" the world by removing religion, I'm not sure it's at all feasible. Besides, some of us still believe that there are certain people that would be better off removed from the face of the earth ... 



Dame Warrigal said:


> "A journey of a thousand miles begin with a single step" - Chairman Mao
> 
> "From little things, big things grow" - Paul Kelly



Excellent warriors are not violent._  [Tao Te Ching chapter 68]_

 Excellent soldiers are not furious._  [Tao Te Ching chapter 68]_


 Excellent conquerors do not engage. _[Tao Te Ching chapter 68]_





Ralphy1 said:


> There is a high for some in war and killing.  Just read "American Sniper" written by Chris Kyle.  He loved war and he loved killing, and he was not an anomoly as many of the SEAlS and guys from other branches couldn't wait to "get some."  Maybe it it is a good thing to have a military and continuous war to allow these guys a place to legally exercise their violent impulses...



I thought that's what professional hockey was for ...


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## Ralphy1 (Jun 19, 2015)

Not even close, unfortunately...


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## QuickSilver (Jun 19, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Some more so than others, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems to me that YOU were the one to first bring up politics...


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## SifuPhil (Jun 19, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> It seems to me that YOU were the one to first bring up politics...



Only in the most passing way - I had to illustrate the two polarities.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 19, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Only in the most passing way - I had to illustrate the two polarities.



No... not in "the most passing way"  Your implication was very explicit..  Liberals.. Not patriotic and TOUGH like the REAL Americans... the Conservatives.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 19, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> No... not in "the most passing way"  Your implication was very explicit..  Liberals.. Not patriotic and TOUGH like the REAL Americans... the Conservatives.



Oh, dear Lord! YOU are the one with the political hang-up, not me. I _despise_ politics and belong to no "camp" - I only used those terms because I had to use SOMETHING, lacking any easier labels. 

Okay, let me put it this way: there are a number of American citizens who despise the thought of killing, and there are a number of Americans who are okay with the idea. If you like you could refer to them as groups, polar opposites, opposing camps ... the label (in this context) is not what is important.


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## Davey Jones (Jun 19, 2015)

PTSD seems to be getting out of hand lately since it first became know, I think some use it for their own purpose.IMO


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## QuickSilver (Jun 19, 2015)

Apparently you are not really atuned.   Many times Conservatives use Liberal views and etiology as "Proof" they are not as patriotic... or somehow not as tough or pro-American as Conservatives..  It's implied ALL the time..  Look at how Obama is portrayed by the far Right..  WEAK...FECKLESS... because he doesn't rush off into war.   So when you point out things like that,  well...  we've heard it before and it's insulting.   I have to take you at your word that you were not even thinking that... but......... I wonder.


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## SifuPhil (Jun 19, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Apparently you are not really atuned.   Many times Conservatives use Liberal views and etiology as "Proof" they are not as patriotic... or somehow not as tough or pro-American as Conservatives..  It's implied ALL the time..  Look at how Obama is portrayed by the far Right..  WEAK...FECKLESS... because he doesn't rush off into war.   So when you point out things like that,  well...  we've heard it before and it's insulting.   I have to take you at your word that you were not even thinking that... but......... I wonder.



I admit I'm no more immune to stereotypes than the common man (or woman, to be PC), but I AM wise enough to know that folks from ANY viewpoint are capable of killing ... 

... but now i know one of your trigger points - thanks!


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## Debby (Jun 21, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Some more so than others, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since I replied to something you said, that awful church massacre has happened and I'm going to concede that some probably are way more inclined to killing people than others.  And then the emotional damage that's done by those kinds of circumstances probably does twist some people up very badly.  So it's a double whammy.


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## ancient mariner (Apr 20, 2018)

_War is not a movie and if you're quoting     "__I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it."    Look what happened to him._


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## ancient mariner (Apr 20, 2018)

Quicksilver, are you a plant? A spy? An actor? Calling you a provocateur would be romanticizing what you  are doing.


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## hearlady (Apr 20, 2018)

Do they test young people who play extremely violent video games for PTSD? The images can be the same even if not real.


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