# Good Bye George



## Packerjohn (Apr 19, 2022)

Our local, small town newspaper this week ran a full page story called, "Last Respects."  It's about George who just died at the age of 99; 38 days short of his 100th birthday.  I like to think of myself as a pacifist but I hold high regard for the people who fought in past wars to protect our country and our way of life.  It was a long article but I would like to bring out just 3 points from interviews with "George."

_1. "Despite the danger George endured during his service, he placed no blame on the people of Germany, as many were forced to fight a war they did not believe in_."  I would think that there are many Russians soldiers in the Ukraine today that are fighting for something they don't believe in and perhaps would rather be home with wives or girl friends.

2. _"Several German soldiers who were surrendering to George and his men were shot by an SS soldier in their midst who had orders to kill their men if anyone was suspected of defecting or of surrendering to the allied forces."  _The SS soldier shot about 15 of his own men.  Makes me think if the Russians soldiers are under the same sort of pressure.

3. _"The military can turn a young person's life around..... and we could use more of that today."  _This the same point of view my father held way back in the 50s regarding aimless, lost youth. My father was a soldier in WWI so I think he knew what he was talking about.


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## jimintoronto (Apr 19, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> Our local, small town newspaper this week ran a full page story called, "Last Respects."  It's about George who just died at the age of 99; 38 days short of his 100th birthday.  I like to think of myself as a pacifist but I hold high regard for the people who fought in past wars to protect our country and our way of life.  It was a long article but I would like to bring out just 3 points from interviews with "George."
> 
> _1. "Despite the danger George endured during his service, he placed no blame on the people of Germany, as many were forced to fight a war they did not believe in_."  I would think that there are many Russians soldiers in the Ukraine today that are fighting for something they don't believe in and perhaps would rather be home with wives or girl friends.
> 
> ...


Could you have found a photo of Canadian WW2 soldiers to illustrate your post ? After all there were more than a million of them serving over seas during the war. In the  modern era the Canadian Forces are NOT in the business of "turning young people around ". The CAF recruits volunteers who want to serve, and rejects those who are not able to adapt to military life. So where did George live in Canada ? Jimb.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2022)

jimintoronto said:


> Could you have found a photo of Canadian WW2 soldiers to illustrate your post ?


Find one and post it here, Jimb.


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## jimintoronto (Apr 19, 2022)

Here is a photo of members of my old Canadian Army unit, the 48th Highlanders of Canada, in December  of 1944. They are about to attack a German held position in the town of Ortona in Italy. The battle lasted for a week, and by Christmas Day the Germans had been tossed out of the town. link. canadian soldiers in italy during ww2 photos. - Bing images  JimB.


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## Geezer Garage (Apr 19, 2022)

I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.


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## Wontactmyage (Apr 19, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.


Interesting


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## jimintoronto (Apr 19, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.


I have to strongly disagree with you. It is tough enough training young people who "want to be there " never mind a bunch of smart ass yahoos who will create problems at every turn for the instructional staff. A terrible idea. To the IDF, their country is surrounded by enemy states, that Israel  has had to fight a number of times over the past decades. They don't have to go looking for trouble, they can see it from their borders. An entirely different situation than the USA faces. JimB.


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## Don M. (Apr 19, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.


I agree.  I think every young person should be obligated to "Give Something" to the nation and society.  Whether it's military service or helping out in senior care facilities, or virtually anything that improves the area they live in....I think everyone would benefit from such a rule.  In today's world, "individual responsibility" seems to be less and less important to so many of our young, and that will only result in more problems for them as they grow older.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

Involuntary Servitude.  How dare you own & direct the lives of young people.  Disgusting.  I would fight against that with all the strength I have left.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 19, 2022)

Don M. said:


> I agree.  I think every young person should be obligated to "Give Something" to the nation and society.  Whether it's military service or helping out in senior care facilities, or virtually anything that improves the area they live in....I think everyone would benefit from such a rule.  In today's world, "individual responsibility" seems to be less and less important to so many of our young, and that will only result in more problems for them as they grow older.


While I oppose the idea of the draft, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military OR serve their local community in some capacity.  Good idea, in my opinion.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> While I oppose the idea of the draft, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military OR serve their local community in some capacity.  Good idea, in my opinion.


How about sending an old person like yourself to aid an even older person?  Maybe for diaper changing?  Good idea, in my opinion.

How can you be against a draft and be for involuntary servitude?  How can you lie and say you're against a draft & then use military service in your example?  Because you are too old to be victimized by it?  Can you imagine children of the upper middle & wealthy being forced to do this? They wouldn't be.

Old people trying to force young people to do their bidding just shows how old one truly is.  As well as being out of touch.

Some of you might be happier living in China or some other police state.  Disgusting is the best word I can think of.  Hypocrites, too, especially claiming to be against a draft.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> How about sending an old person like yourself to aid an even older person?  Maybe for diaper changing?  Good idea, in my opinion.
> 
> How can you be against a draft and be for involuntary servitude?  How can you lie and say you're against a draft & then use military service in your example?  Because you are too old to be victimized by it?  Can you imagine children of the upper middle & wealthy being forced to do this? They wouldn't be.
> 
> ...


I was willing but unable to join the Army in middle age.  While I oppose war and weapons proliferation, in this day and age we have no choice but to be prepared.  All I was saying was that youth should have to give of themselves to help others in some way.  You can call it forced servitude if you wish.  I believe it is character building.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

Of course you can't join the Army in middle age!
As for character building, a move like this will basically only infect the poorer classes.  Yes, we all know poor people desperately need character building.  That says a lot @Em in Ohio about true intent.

"....youth should have to give of themselves...."  Should.  Should.  Should.  You should do this and do that.  Not me.  YOU is what you are telling Youth.  How dare you.


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## HoneyNut (Apr 19, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I think mandatory service, military /community/ of some type before college would be a good thing. It would make for more mature students, who would get more out of the school experience, and or career path. Something akin to the Israeli model.



I agree that a year or two of adult supervised productive activity would be very beneficial for 18 yr olds who otherwise would go straight to college and make a lot of foolish, destructive and dangerous mistakes partying and/or excess drinking etc.  It is so sad when there are articles in the news of them dying from chugging alcohol or falling out of dorm windows.

And it could be extra beneficial if there were international options (Peace Corp etc) that would broaden the experience and perspective of the kids.  I'd think the kids would enjoy it assuming they could choose which type of program.

I remember some program that was a little pricey but supposedly was very effective for young people who'd gotten off on the wrong foot in life, where they would spend a month with a Native American guide hiking and living in the wilderness. 

Of course this would be expensive (higher taxes) to support the programs, but it might provide some benefits for both the kids and the society.

When I was young I went overseas to one of the Israeli Ulpan programs and it was a great experience, we studied Hebrew half the day and the other half we rotated through work assignments (such as picking pomegranates, clearing rocks from fields, childcare house, dining hall duty, carrot factory, latrine cleaning (ugh), etc.).  Of course since we were young and stupid there were some tragedies, first thing when we arrived we had to all go visit a grave of a previous participant (who thought it was cool to dig up a landmine from the border and bring it back to his dorm room), and in our group we had a leftover person from the previous group who was staying on because she fell off a ladder when picking pomegranates and broke her leg in three places. 

I don't think we could afford a three year program for our kids in the USA, probably just one year, which would not be enough to mature them very much.  The Israeli guys in university after their 3 yr stints in the military were very mature/serious/boring, but we'd probably have to have an extra ten percent sales tax on the whole country to afford to give the kids that much time.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

The only ones inducted will basically be black, latino and poor whites just like it was when there was a draft. 

"18 yr olds who otherwise would go straight to college and make a lot of foolish, destructive and dangerous mistakes partying and/or excess drinking etc. It is so sad when there are articles in the news of them dying from chugging alcohol or falling out of dorm windows."  what a ridiculous generalization @HoneyNut.  The young people I know don't fall into that category.

Slavery was good for capitalism.  Good for all types of problems.  Let's bring it back.  I need someone to help an old woman like me.  It will be so good for their character and it won't cost me one red cent.  Send your own grandchildren.  Leave mine alone.


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## HoneyNut (Apr 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The only ones inducted will basically be black, latino and poor whites just like it was when there was a draft.


True, it would have to be really fair, no getting out based on an invisible foot bone spur.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

HoneyNut said:


> True, it would have to be really fair, no getting out based on an invisible foot bone spur.


HoneyNut, the truth of what I said should cause anyone with a fair heart to question involuntary servitude.  Live and let live.  To each his/her/their own.  Etc.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> HoneyNut, the truth of what I said should cause anyone with a fair heart to question involuntary servitude.  Live and let live.  To each his/her/their own.  Etc.


How 'bout if they get paid; earn as you learn. I wish apprenticeship programs would make a huge come-back. And they shouldn't even require a high-school diploma or GED, just a kid with an interest in learning a marketable skill and a solid future.


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## Pepper (Apr 19, 2022)

It's the INvoluntary part I object to strenuously @Murrmurr.  If these opportunities are offered on a voluntary basis I have no objections, in fact I think it's a great idea.  It's Forced labor that is my objection.  Forced.  Only for some of course---that wayward poor youth group.


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## Tish (Apr 19, 2022)

Interesting point of view.


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## Flarbalard (Apr 19, 2022)

One thing about mandatory service is that would then give everyone one veteran's benefits, so we basically would have national health insurance.  I wonder what the price tag would be on that?


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## HoneyNut (Apr 19, 2022)

Flarbalard said:


> One thing about mandatory service is that would then give everyone one veteran's benefits, so we basically would have national health insurance. I wonder what the price tag would be on that?


We have to pay for health care either way.  But national health insurance would be more economical:

_To estimate what would happen if the United States adopted a single-payer system, researchers from UCSF, UCLA and UC Berkeley examined 22 economic analyses by government, business and academic organizations of national and state-level single payer plans, including proposals made in Massachusetts, California, Maryland, Vermont, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, New York and Oregon.

These analyses were used by policymakers to evaluate the proposals, estimating savings the plans would create through simplified billing and lower drug costs while also taking into account increases in health spending that would arise as newly insured people sought healthcare. 

The researchers found that 19 of the 22 models predicted net savings in the first year after implementation, averaging 3.5 percent of total healthcare spending. 

The researchers were able to estimate longer-term savings by using cost projections made in 10 of the models, which looked as far as 11 years into the future. These studies assumed that savings would grow over time, as the increases in healthcare utilization by the newly insured leveled off, and the global budgets adopted by single-payer systems helped to constrain costs. By the 10th year, all modeled single payer systems would save money, even those that projected costs would initially increase._

*Authors: *_Christopher Cai, Jackson Runte, Isabel Ostrer, Kacey Berry, Justin White, PhD, and James G. Kahn, MD, MPH, of the UCSF School of Medicine; Ninez Ponce, PhD, MPP, of the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health; Michael Rodriguez, MD, MPH, of the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA; Stefano Bertozzi, MD, PhD, of the UC Berkley School of Public Health.

*Funding: *None except as noted in disclosures.

*Disclosures: *Christopher Cai is an executive board member of Students for a National Health Program. Christopher Cai, Jackson Runte, Isabel Ostrer, Kacey Berry each received a student summer research grant of $750 from Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) to support this study. PNHP had no role in study design, data collection, analysis, decision to publish or manuscript preparation._


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2022)

HoneyNut said:


> We have to pay for health care either way.  But national health insurance would be more economical:


I can guarantee that if we had free nat'l healthcare in the US, we'd have crappy healthcare. To the detriment of common-folks, our greedy, self-absorbed congress would tap into the funds at every opportunity in every way they could. I just don't see it working here. Not now. Not until we get congress and congressional spending under our control. That was the original idea. (tell that to a civics class and they'll look at you like you just fell off the moon)


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## Chet (Apr 19, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> While I oppose the idea of the draft*, I wholeheartedly agree that young people should be required to either join the military* OR serve their local community in some capacity.  Good idea, in my opinion.


I enlisted and got to meet other Americans from other parts of the country and of other races who were all dressed in the same uniform for the same reason and it gave a sense of oneness and national unity which is sorely lacking today.


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## HoneyNut (Apr 19, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> To the detriment of common-folks, our greedy, self-absorbed congress would tap into the funds at every opportunity in every way they could.


Well, currently we have greedy self-absorbed profit motive health insurance companies, and contrary to the story they feed us about being so efficient, they are wasteful and only interested in getting the most money for the least benefit, plus OUR money has to support: "CEOs of 178 health care companies collectively made $3.2 billion during 2020".  We might as well let congress take a billion and we'd still save a bunch.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 20, 2022)

HoneyNut said:


> Well, currently we have greedy self-absorbed profit motive health insurance companies,


Who got that way with loads of help from congress. There's a lot of you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours going on in Washington DC. The way health insurance companies work should be illegal. Well, guess who made it legal?


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

Mandatory service was right there, being proposed, in Congress...back, oh, I think in the late 80s.

Some idiots came in, claiming it was an affront to freedom or some nonsense and got it quashed. And, I am pretty sure there was some nonsense political agenda behind it. I think the party that did not propose it first, did not want the other political party to "get a win." So, in their political fight, they prevented our country from getting an enormous amount of public service and giving these young people a strong life lesson of helping, caring, service and on...

We absolutely should require youth to do service, oh, for maybe two years after high school. What a huge body of manpower to help all kinds of social ills.

Doesn't have to be military service. Could just be 18 year olds tutoring little grammar school kids. Students working in hospitals, nursing homes, doing all kinds of needed service for the country.


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## Pepper (Apr 20, 2022)

Slavery, Involuntary Servitude.  I'd fight it with my last breath.  Old people forcibly directing and stealing the lives of young people.  Just like the old sending the young to wars they don't attend. Why?  Because You forgot what it is like to be young because you're old.  Old and controlling, old and demanding.  Old.

Would there be deferments for teen mothers?  Or, if a youth is responsible for the well being of his/her family?  Just stealing a kid out of his/her environment?  Because you say so?

This is a freedom issue, not merely a discussion of I believe this or that..............I believe in slavery, you don't.  Those are fighting words, not mere opinions.

I fought the draft with my whole life & soul.  I didn't want my young American brothers being forced to "serve," when actually they were forced to be fodder for an old man's war.

So, sit in your recliners and decide life for other people, young people, my grandson among them. Nope.  No.  Boss around someone else besides youth to fill your need to still control something while you're still breathing.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 20, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Of course you can't join the Army in middle age!
> As for character building, a move like this will basically only infect the poorer classes.  Yes, we all know poor people desperately need character building.  That says a lot @Em in Ohio about true intent.
> 
> "....youth should have to give of themselves...."  Should.  Should.  Should.  You should do this and do that.  Not me.  YOU is what you are telling Youth.  How dare you.


You obviously don't know me and it appears to me that you lack emotional maturity.  Perhaps you should rename yourself "Salty."  Name calling is beneath a mature adult.


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## Pepper (Apr 20, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> You obviously don't know me and it appears to me that you lack emotional maturity.  Perhaps you should rename yourself "Salty."  Name calling is beneath a mature adult.


What name did I call you @Em in Ohio?  What names above did you call me?  That's okay, carry on.


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Slavery, Involuntary Servitude.  I'd fight it with my last breath.  Old people forcibly directing and stealing the lives of young people.  Just like the old sending the young to wars they don't attend. Why?  Because You forgot what it is like to be young because you're old.  Old and controlling, old and demanding.  Old.
> 
> Would there be deferments for teen mothers?  Or, if a youth is responsible for the well being of his/her family?  Just stealing a kid out of his/her environment?  Because you say so?
> 
> ...



All the world's major religions as well as Ethical Humanism...all call for compassionate service.  The Good Samaritan Parable is a call to help others generally, not just one incident of one man on the side of the road.  And all the world's major religions have similar parables and teachings.


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## Pepper (Apr 20, 2022)

I'm not impressed by using the principles of your religious faith to decide what is best for the masses. Separate church and state.  I see not only do you want involuntary servitude, but you want it in the name of religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Forcing work AND your religious views on others!  Way to go!  NO, won't let that happen, would fight it to my last breath.  Always wanted to die fighting for something I believe in.  Charge!


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

In high school, I did reading for the blind.  We also did paper drives.  Back in the 70s, I would guess that about 60% - 70% of the students did volunteer work of some kind.  Through their churches and synagogues and also through service clubs like the Key Club or the Lions Club...

And most of the students who did not do volunteer work, didn't do it, because they had jobs and absolutely did not have the time. 

Back then, I was a science guy. I was pre-med. I became a volunteer at a hospital. That was a common type of volunteer work that the gals did. They were called "Candy Stripers." I am pretty sure that every single last guy there was like me, someone pre-med, eventually looking to be a doctor.

And, it was not only real service, but a real education. Back then, we did not just deliver books and newspapers...we were called to the pharmacy station and we took the medications up to the nurses station. It is a very different thing to work with medication bottles in a real world setting, rather than just reading some text on a page.

We interacted with the doctors, and nurses and patients.

I remember passing by the Post-Op ward. This man yelled out, "Hey kid! How did the Yankees do last night?" He clearly was in a lot of pain. He just wanted to talk to someone, to distract him from the pain. You learn a lot from those experiences.

Also, you know, the entire thing was no big deal. They hardly worked us like slave drivers. We just worked like mail messengers, taking things around the hospital. And it was never a burden or anything.

And, you know, I also delivered something to the room of someone in a coma.  That was, you know, a very difficult thing to see.  But that is why  you want to be a doctor...to help people in pain.


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## Pepper (Apr 20, 2022)

That's wonderful @JonSR77.  I sincerely compliment you for your efforts.  I'm happy for you.  In fact, Bully for You.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 20, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> In high school, I did reading for the blind.  We also did paper drives.  Back in the 70s, I would guess that about 60% - 70% of the students did volunteer work of some kind.  Through their churches and synagogues and also through service clubs like the Key Club or the Lions Club...
> 
> And most of the students who did not do volunteer work, didn't do it, because they had jobs and absolutely did not have the time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for YOUR service!


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Thanks for YOUR service!



Oh, well, thanks, appreciated. But it really wasn't much. Surviving my lunatic relatives...now THAT has been work!

Much later, as an adult, I got to do some reasonable work. I was able to intercede with two different combat vets who went into PTSD episodes. That was scary, difficult and dangerous work. Luckily, I was able to keep them calm and safe. And I do think luck is the right word there. But for how scary it was....that made me feel like it was good hard work.

I am convinced that nearly every single last one of us has been called to do many, many difficult things in life. And everyone has suffered great problems and loss. Personally, I think we all deserve a few medals.

If I were to get any medals, I would like one of them to be made out of dark chocolate, if that is possible...


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## HoneyNut (Apr 20, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> I became a volunteer at a hospital. That was a common type of volunteer work that the gals did. They were called "Candy Stripers."


I have a picture of a candy striper 'uniform'!  (My sister, maybe in 1970-ish)


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## Packerjohn (Apr 20, 2022)

jimintoronto said:


> Could you have found a photo of Canadian WW2 soldiers to illustrate your post ? After all there were more than a million of them serving over seas during the war. In the  modern era the Canadian Forces are NOT in the business of "turning young people around ". The CAF recruits volunteers who want to serve, and rejects those who are not able to adapt to military life. So where did George live in Canada ? Jimb.


Small town of Lac du Bonnet, Manitoba


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I'm not impressed by using the principles of your religious faith to decide what is best for the masses. Separate church and state.  I see not only do you want involuntary servitude, but you want it in the name of religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Forcing work AND your religious views on others!  Way to go!  NO, won't let that happen, would fight it to my last breath.  Always wanted to die fighting for something I believe in.  Charge!



I would respond, but I am currently deeply engaged with this video...


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## JonSR77 (Apr 20, 2022)

HoneyNut said:


> I have a picture of a candy striper 'uniform'!  (My sister, maybe in 1970-ish)
> 
> View attachment 218166



ah, my sister in volunteer work!  Did she go into nursing or medicine in any way?  A lot of the candy stripers eventually became nurses..


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## Timewise 60+ (Apr 20, 2022)

Those who think a government driven healthcare system would be better, ask yourselves the question why many Canadians cross the border to come to the USA to have operations and treatments.  The primary problem is that in Canada wait times for many procedures are very long.  In the USA you can get what you need fairly quickly.  Most of the world is using a government health system.  Yet Americans recognize that our healthcare system is one of the best, if not the best in the world.    Free market capitalism works...


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## jimintoronto (Apr 21, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Those who think a government driven healthcare system would be better, ask yourselves the question why many Canadians cross the border to come to the USA to have operations and treatments.  The primary problem is that in Canada wait times for many procedures are very long.  In the USA you can get what you need fairly quickly.  Most of the world is using a government health system.  Yet Americans recognize that our healthcare system is one of the best, if not the best in the world.    Free market capitalism works...


Once again, the myth rolls around. "Many " Canadians DO NOT go to the USA for medical treatment. In my 75 years living in Canada, I do not know anyone who "went to the States " for medical care. On the other hand , thousands of Americans DO GO to  Mexico, India, and the Phillipines every year, for CHEAPER medical care. Keep on pushing that agenda , Timewise. The Canadians on this forum will be right along to punch holes in your so called  facts. JImB.


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## oldman (Apr 21, 2022)

Being the history buff that I am, I am always saddened to hear if a WWII soldier die. They take with them so much history, especially the soldiers that had fought in some of the more famous battles. However, anytime I see a veteran wearing a WWII cap, I am somehow talking to them. It’s not easy for me to walk up to a complete stranger and start a conversation about his time during WWII, although I gave been rewarded with meeting some very interesting men.

One of my favorite people was a man who was in Hawaii the morning the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. We met in a grocery store and luckily, he was by himself. We spoke for almost two hours. The bad part was that he was visiting from another state and had just came into the store to pick up supplies before heading back to the campground.

The man that I really wanted to meet was Edgar Harrell, who was a survivor from the USS Indianapolis. I wanted to attend a reunion of the shipmates that had survived, which was held every year, but each year something else would come up. Now, all but 3 gave passed away. Check out his story here:


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