# Ireland says aye!



## Josiah (May 23, 2015)

Votes Overwhelmingly For Gay Marriage... 
First Country To Legalize Via Referendum.
This is GREAT.
To have come so far so fast is just amazing.


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## hollydolly (May 23, 2015)

Well Done Ireland....now legalise abortion NOW!!!!


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## Ameriscot (May 23, 2015)

Been keeping an eye on that all day and enjoying their celebrations.  Well done, Ireland!!  I agree, Holly, they should legalise abortion instead of them having to come over to the UK.


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## Louis (May 23, 2015)

Good news, indeed.


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## oakapple (May 23, 2015)

It's surprising really, that Eire has said YES. I think they wanted to be thought of as a  progressive country,the polls predicted a yes, but we all know about polls!


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## SeaBreeze (May 23, 2015)

I saw that in the news, very good!


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## AZ Jim (May 23, 2015)

Good news for all in the Emerald Isle....


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## Warrigal (May 23, 2015)

Celebrated over here too



We could have legalised marriage over here because it is a federal law that prevents it. All that would be required would be a conscience vote in parliament but the government refuses to allow its members to vote for change. The Opposition has allowed it in the past, even though their party policy if for gender equality in marriage. However, it can't be too long before it will become legal everywhere in Australia. The majority of the people are for quality.


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## Shalimar (May 24, 2015)

Yes for gay marriage in Eire, now work toward legalizing abortion.


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## AZ Jim (May 24, 2015)

A statement by the Catholic church expresses concern they are losing obedience in it's members.  They state they are losing members and may need a "new message".


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## Underock1 (May 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> A statement by the Catholic church expresses concern they are losing obedience in it's members.  They state they are losing members and may need a "new message".



Well; off to Nicea for another rewrite.


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2015)

The catholic church has lost its moral authority because of the revelations of widespread paedophilia and the way it was covered up. Ireland was once described as a "priest ridden country" but the grip of the church hierarchy is much weakened.

We are in the middle of a royal commission taking evidence about child ****** abuse in institutions of all kinds and it is currently sitting is a regional Victorian city of Ballarat where the evidence against priests and brothers is very damning, as is the way offenders were moved around but never dealt with.

Australians are becoming much more vocal in demanding legalised same sex marriage and those opposed are in the minority. Conservative church views are being ignored by the people in the pews but the politicians are still very nervous.


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## Fern (May 24, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Yes for gay marriage in Eire, now work toward legalizing abortion.


Legalising abortion is not the be all and end all. It was legalised here a few years back, this is the result. It is not the panacea many believed.


> Feminists believed above all in the right of women to determine  their own fate, and control their own bodies. They also believed that  abortion would be only a last resort. Women, they fervently believed,  would be responsible.
> Nobody anticipated a steady rise in abortion figures, or that  abortion would become a backstop contraceptive measure for some women.
> We thought the procedure would be too unpleasant to bear repeating,  but we were wrong about that, too, and we would have ridiculed anyone  who predicted our current abortion statistics.
> Our abortion rate now exceeds Germany, the Netherlands and Finland. Only the United States and Australia carry out more.
> ...


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2015)

Sad figure, Fern. 

My daughter, who is now 52, was a little upset to learn of her first pregnancy because as newly weds, they weren't in a good place financially. Immediately the doctor offered to arrange a termination. Then she was even more shocked because she certainly didn't want that as a way out of a financial problem.

She had our first grandchild, went on to have three more, had to be very careful with money until they all grew up and has never regretted having them.

I find it astounding that a doctor would offer a healthy young woman an abortion without carefully looking into her circumstances. Different issue if she comes seeking a termination but still, she may prefer to be offered a way to have and keep her baby. 

I would like to see the number of terminations to be much lower than it is but we have to be careful about the statistics. I understand that in Australia there is no distinction between terminations and D & C procedures. I had one of these for medical reasons. So did my mother post menopause. Nothing to do with terminations.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

What does the Pope have to say about this?


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

About what? This thread has drifted a bit from the original post.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

About gay marriage, abortion, etc....


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

I can't quote him but on same sex marriage I would imagine that he would state that marriage is a sacrament (Catholics have 7 sacraments, Protestants only recognise 2 - baptism and the Eucharist) and it is not for the church to play around with the sacraments. 

On abortion I would expect him to take the position that all life is sacred and that life begins at conception, ergo abortion is the taking of a human life.

People who are waiting for any pope to say anything different will be waiting a long time IMO.

Change in these areas must come through legislation. It is up to the politicians to change the laws.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

So the "Cafeteria" Catholics can have it both ways?


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> So the "Cafeteria" Catholics can have it both ways?



You don't see catholic families having a dozen kids any more do you?  They are disobeying the church by using birth control.  Or they aren't having much sex, but I think that is unlikely.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

Yes, so what is the point of being a Catholic?


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

I don't know. Ask a Catholic.
Don't be surprised if you don't get an answer because your question does sound rather impertinent.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

Impertinent?  Maybe to some who don't like to think about it...


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

If someone thinks the question is insincere or that an honest answer won't be respected, then it isn't a case of not wanting to think about the answer.



> Yes, so what is the point of being a Catholic?



This is a personal question for which there would be many different answers, depending on who you asked. But it really can only be answered by a Catholic. I am not the one who can answer your question. Try elsewhere.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

What are you?


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Are labels important, Ralphy?


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

Well, yes, if you claim to be a Catholic, a Protestant, a Buddhist, or whatever, then shouldn't you abide by the rules of your religion or relinquish the label?


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Well, yes, if you claim to be a Catholic, a Protestant, a Buddhist, or whatever, then shouldn't you abide by the rules of your religion or relinquish the label?



Personally, I am unlabeled so don't have to adhere to any religious or spiritual rules.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

I am a 72 year old Australian born woman of British heritage but that is not what you are asking, is it?.

I am also a member of the Uniting Church in Australia which is very similar (I think?) to the United Church of Canada. 
It came into being in 1977 with the aim of being an authentic church for Australia and Australians.

At the time, this was published to explain the new, but also old, nature of the church.



> *About the Uniting Church*
> 
> The Uniting Church in Australia is a union of three churches, which have been represented in Australia since early days of colonial settlement. After some 23 years of discussion and negotiation, the Congregational Union of Australia, the Methodist Church of Australasia and the Presbyterian Church of Australia agreed to come together on a Basis of Union.
> 
> ...



The structure of this church is not hierarchical. There are no bishops, just ordained ministers and lay people. It polity is one of a series of overlapping councils each with their own unique spheres of responsibility and authority. Grass roots - each congregation has an elected church council. Congregations are linked regionally into presbyteries. Each state has its own Synod and across the nation there is a National Assembly. All positions and leaders are elected with limited terms and all positions are open to men and women equally. 

The NSW Synod's leader is currently a Korean born Australian woman. Her title is Moderator.

People who are in committed same sex relationship are not disqualified from being ordained but as with any other candidate, promiscuity would be an obstacle. The church makes no judgement on women who seek or have had an abortion.

The Uniting Church is what is considered to be a non conformist Christian denomination with its historical roots in Western Christianity i.e. Roman Catholicism, Church of England, Methodism and also Presbyterians and Congregationalists through to the current entity.

The UCA is a bit of an enigma. It is very progressive on social issues and is quite outspoken and although it is the third largest denomination in OZ, it rarely gets any media attention unless some arch conservative fossil of a minister can be found for a sensational headline. We also have the oldest age profile of all the Australian churches and we are shrinking faster than most because of our mortality and because we are not energetically evangelistic. We don't chase converts with butterfly nets, preferring to put our efforts into community service. Socially the UCA is one of the biggest providers of aged care and child care on a not for profit basis. Our congregation has both on our church property. However, congregations decide for themselves the nature of their local mission and it is impossible to make firm generalisations.

The modern idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is not part of our tradition. We are not biblical fundamentalists but look inside the scripture for guidance.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Well, yes, if you claim to be a Catholic, a Protestant, a Buddhist, or whatever, then shouldn't you abide by the rules of your religion or relinquish the label?



That level of orthodoxy belongs in the past in most Christian denominations. 
Excommunications rarely happen these days.

By the way, Buddhism as far as I know, doesn't operate on rules. 
It has teachings and spiritual practices but there is no compulsion on the adherents.

Islam and Judaism have a lot of rules. Islam has only one way to leave and it is via the grave.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

It seems that you can wear your label proudly with little or no hypocrisy...


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

I wear a name badge, not a label. I am authentically my own unique self. We encourage authenticity.
By authentic, I mean warts and all.


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> That level of orthodoxy belongs in the past in most Christian denominations.
> Excommunications rarely happen these days.
> 
> By the way, Buddhism as far as I know, doesn't operate on rules.
> ...



No, Buddhism does not really have rules but I feel I can never call myself one.  IMO a true Buddhist lives a certain way.  And if you are a monk or nun you do abide by the teachings.  There are also many different schools of Buddhism and all are not the same.  I think most are vegan, don't drink alcohol-smoke-drugs, etc.


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

The rule is to have no rules...


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

When the rules, or rather the principles for living for love of neighbour,  are written in our hearts instead of on paper, parchment or stone, the humankind will have finished evolving.

That time is not yet. Perhaps when the white tree blooms again?


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

My white tree is blooming but I don't see much hope anytime soon...


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

:wow: You have the white tree of Gondor?
Long live the :king:


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> :wow: You have the white tree of Gondor?
> Long live the :king:




LOL!  You're not really calling him King Ralphy are you?!


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2015)

No, I'm mocking him.
Aren't I just too bad? :devil:


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

No, just a white dogwood...


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## Ameriscot (May 25, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> No, just a white dogwood...



So that means you're a dog, right?!


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## Ralphy1 (May 25, 2015)

Don't get cute with me with that Lord of the Rings crapola...


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## Glinda (May 25, 2015)

Getting back to the original thread, I'm so happy that it's Ireland leading the way!  Good for them!


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## Underock1 (May 25, 2015)

DW, I just realized that we share pretty much the same religious back ground. I was baptized a Methodist, and confirmed as a Congregationalist. The Congregationalists merged into what, here, became the United Church of Christ. 
The description you give about the merger, governance, and religious practices, is identical to what ours was. I am going by memory, but originally I only recall our merger being between the Dutch Reformed and the Congregationalists. We drifted away, from the church, and over the years, I have become a total non-believer in any supernatural power.


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## Warrigal (May 26, 2015)

Back to the topic.

A private members bill will be presented to the Australian Parliament next week to allow legalisation of same sex marriage. 
Unless the Prime Minister is prepared to allow a free vote by government members it is destined to fail. 
He's under a lot of pressure and may decide to allow one for the first time.
If that happens, it will pass.


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## Glinda (May 26, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Back to the topic.
> 
> A private members bill will be presented to the Australian Parliament next week to allow legalisation of same sex marriage.
> Unless the Prime Minister is prepared to allow a free vote by government members it is destined to fail.
> ...



Thanks for letting us know this, DW.  Fingers crossed!  
:fingerscrossed:


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## Ameriscot (May 27, 2015)

Crossing my fingers as well!


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## Warrigal (May 27, 2015)

A private members bill doesn't automatically go up for a vote. The government decides which of them are presented to parliament, and when.
That is not a bad thing because it will allow the major parties to thrash it out in the party rooms and decide whether or no they will allow a free vote.

The PM may face a party room revolt if he doesn't allow it this time (there have been previous attempts to change the law). His leadership is shaky and the cabinet is leaking badly to the press, a sure sign of disunity. If he doesn't allow a free vote he might be embarrassed by  a number of members, even ministers, crossing the floor.

He could just sit on the bill but in the end that will only make him more unpopular. I think there is a good chance that this time the bill might pass into law. If it does, same sex marriage will be legal everywhere in Australia with the stroke of a pen.


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## Ralphy1 (May 27, 2015)

You just might beat us to the punch as the Supremes will decide this in June here as I recall...


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## koala (May 27, 2015)

My hunch is it will not get passed in Australia as it has been kicked around for a long time without success. But that is only my guess.


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