# Countdown to the Russian invasion of Ukraine



## Irwin

The US has warned of the “very distinct possibility” of a Russian invasion of Ukraine in the next few days, potentially involving an overwhelming attack on Kyiv, and told all remaining Americans to leave the country in the next 48 hours.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/11/biden-ukraine-us-russian-invasion-winter-olympics

"Experts" predicted that Putin was going to wait until after the Olympics were over before invading Ukraine as a show of solidarity with China. Looks like he may not wait.

From a purely self-centered point of view, these events are fascinating. We could be witnessing the beginning of a major war.

From an empathetic towards our allies in Ukraine point of view, I'd like to see the U.S. do more to help them. We are supplying them with plenty of arms, but there's no way it's going to be enough to stop Russia. I don't know what the answer is. 

Just how crazy is Putin? He's not averse to murdering or jailing his opponents.

It seems to me the only way to stop Putin is for U.S. and Ukraine allies from around the world to send troops to Ukraine and make it a battle between Russia and the world, which would be suicide for Putin.

History shows that these acts of aggression need to be stopped at the beginning before they get out of control. While the EU is threatening sanctions against Russia should they invade, that's not going to change anything other than the people of Russia will suffer and since Putin controls the news media to a great extent, it will increase animosity by the people of Russia towards the west.


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## Ruthanne

Personally I don't think anything will happen.  I hope I'm right.


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## Alligatorob

Ruthanne said:


> Personally I don't think anything will happen. I hope I'm right.


Hope so too!


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## Colleen

On the Nightly News tonight, a 24 year old American guy that is a teacher in Ukraine was interviewed and he said he's not leaving. I guess if you're 24, you have a different outlook on life. I can vaguely remember being 24 and when I look back on that time in my life, I was fearless. I hadn't lived long enough to be otherwise. Hope he stays safe.


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## ElCastor

Previous speculation had it that simultaneous invasions of Ukraine and China->Taiwan would occur after the Olympics. That seems like a real possibility since Russia and China appear to be jointly teaming up against the US.  Other than supplying Ukraine and Taiwan with weapons, we would seem to be without much in the way of recourse. Sending in our own armed forces, or involving NATO, could result in a war with Russia, China, or both. Yikes, I hope not! 

Short of that, in the case of Ukraine there have been hints that we would cut the oil and gas supply line from Russia to Europe. That seems impractical because Europe needs that fuel, and as an energy importer we are no longer able to help out in that regard. All in all, not a good situation, and likely the end of the United States as the #1 world power.


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## RFW

As a wise man once said, here we go again.


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## Tish

I hope this is nothing more than arm flexing, I guess we will see.


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## hollydolly

Well Headlines today say it;s ON. ..and it's happening Wednesday... 
_Russia is planning to invade Ukraine on Wednesday, a credible intelligence report has claimed, as US President Joe Biden urgently arranged a telephone call with Vladimir Putin on Saturday in a bid to prevent war.  

According to German newspaper Der Spiegel, the US Secret Service, CIA and the Pentagon are said to have received intel of an 'exceptionally detailed' invasion plan, scheduled for February 16. 

The plans were passed on to Biden's government and discussed in a series of secret briefings with NATO allies.

They are said to contain specific routes that might be taken by individual Russian units and detail what roles they might play in the conflict.  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...itons-Ukraine-commercial-means-available.html_


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## Lavinia

Ruthanne said:


> Personally I don't think anything will happen.  I hope I'm right.


I think that is what we are all hoping...that it's just a show of bravado.


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## Aunt Bea

The most chilling for me was Putin's conversation with Xi Jinping. 

If China is able to join forces with its allies our own way of life will be at risk. 

Active military
Russia:            1,014,000
China:             2,185,000
India:              1,455,550
North Korea:  1,280,000

Very scary!


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## Murrmurr

Aunt Bea said:


> The most chilling for me was Putin's conversation with Xi Jinping.
> 
> If China is able to join forces with its allies our own way of life will be at risk.
> 
> Active military
> Russia:            1,014,000
> China:             2,185,000
> India:              1,455,550
> North Korea:  1,280,000
> 
> Very scary!


India is not allied with Russia or China.


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## Aunt Bea

Murrmurr said:


> India is not allied with Russia or China.


We'll see. 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...dias-foremost-ally-says-chinas-leading-paper/


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## Murrmurr

Aunt Bea said:


> We'll see.
> 
> https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...dias-foremost-ally-says-chinas-leading-paper/


India had a recent small-ish military battle against Chinese forces when they encroached India's NE border. The Chinese forces withdrew.


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## Purwell

hollydolly said:


> Well Headlines today say it;s ON. ..and it's happening Wednesday...
> _Russia is planning to invade Ukraine on Wednesday, a credible intelligence report has claimed, as US President Joe Biden urgently arranged a telephone call with Vladimir Putin on Saturday in a bid to prevent war.
> 
> According to German newspaper Der Spiegel, the US Secret Service, CIA and the Pentagon are said to have received intel of an 'exceptionally detailed' invasion plan, scheduled for February 16.
> 
> The plans were passed on to Biden's government and discussed in a series of secret briefings with NATO allies.
> 
> They are said to contain specific routes that might be taken by individual Russian units and detail what roles they might play in the conflict.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...itons-Ukraine-commercial-means-available.html_


Well blow me! It's in the Daily Mail, must be true......cough, cough.


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## Packerjohn

It's the same ole' story.  Billions of dollars to be made by those that build military killing weapons.  Women, children and other innocent people going to be gassed or blown to pieces.  The politicians who started it all will hide behind their computer screens while the young men will be killed.  There is nothing glorious here and there are no good guys and there are no bad guys.  The world is going mad.  Covid19 madness will be replaced war madness.  People just never learn.

If you think that shelves in your store are strangely empty, the price of motor fuel, the price of home heating and the price of groceries is going up you haven't seen anything.  Wait until the war starts.  Another World War will make the death toll from Covid19 look like peanuts.  It will hardly be worth talking about anymore.

An intelligent test done at the end of WWI showed that 47% of soldiers were morons.  This is from "The Untold History of the United States" by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick.  By definition, a moron is "A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."  Remember, this test was done 104 years ago.  I wonder what that test would show in 2022?


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## Don M.

I fully expect Russia to stage a "False Flag" attack in the very near future.  They will sacrifice a few of their troops, and a couple of tanks, to make it look like the Ukraine attacked them.  Then, All Hell will break loose.


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## hollydolly

Purwell said:


> Well blow me! It's in the Daily Mail, must be true......cough, cough.


it's also in all the other papers too.......I should take something for that horrible cough you have...


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## Sunny

This all has a horribly familiar ring to it. A sociopathic dictator at the helm of a European country, intent on expanding his power, so he sends troops to invade his neighbors?  Where have I heard that before?


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## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Short of that, in the case of Ukraine there have been hints that we would cut the oil and gas supply line from Russia to Europe. That seems impractical because Europe needs that fuel, and as an energy importer we are no longer able to help out in that regard.


I wonder if people who protested construction of the Keystone Pipeline are rethinking their position.


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## Irwin

Sunny said:


> This all has a horribly familiar ring to it. A sociopathic dictator at the helm of a European country, intent on expanding his power, so he sends troops to invade his neighbors?  Where have I heard that before?


Russia is an Asian country — not European, but yeah, it's not a good situation.


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## Tish

I guess they are not going to wait till the Winter Olympics are over.


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## RadishRose

Irwin said:


> Russia is an Asian country — not European, but yeah, it's not a good situation.


Russia is both European and Asian.

"*Russia* spans territory in both Europe and Asia. More than three quarters of *Russia's* population lives in the *European* part of the country. The Ural Mountains and Ural River mark Europe's eastern continental border with Asia. The northern slopes of the Caucuses Mountains and the Turkish Straits mark Europe's southern continental border with Asia."

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-russia-in-europe-or-asia.html


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## Irwin

RadishRose said:


> Russia is both European and Asian.
> 
> "*Russia* spans territory in both Europe and Asia. More than three quarters of *Russia's* population lives in the *European* part of the country. The Ural Mountains and Ural River mark Europe's eastern continental border with Asia. The northern slopes of the Caucuses Mountains and the Turkish Straits mark Europe's southern continental border with Asia."
> 
> https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-russia-in-europe-or-asia.html


You're right. My bad. And Moscow is in the European part of Russia.


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## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> I wonder if people who protested construction of the Keystone Pipeline are rethinking their position.


I think we both know the answer to that one. Hint -- its a two letter word beginning with the letter "N".


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## ElCastor

Packerjohn said:


> It's the same ole' story.  Billions of dollars to be made by those that build military killing weapons.  Women, children and other innocent people going to be gassed or blown to pieces.  The politicians who started it all will hide behind their computer screens while the young men will be killed.  There is nothing glorious here and there are no good guys and there are no bad guys.  The world is going mad.  Covid19 madness will be replaced war madness.  People just never learn.
> 
> If you think that shelves in your store are strangely empty, the price of motor fuel, the price of home heating and the price of groceries is going up you haven't seen anything.  Wait until the war starts.  Another World War will make the death toll from Covid19 look like peanuts.  It will hardly be worth talking about anymore.
> 
> An intelligent test done at the end of WWI showed that 47% of soldiers were morons.  This is from "The Untold History of the United States" by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick.  By definition, a moron is "A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."  Remember, this test was done 104 years ago.  I wonder what that test would show in 2022?


The day after Pearl Harbor my dad, who was a licensed pilot, enlisted in the Army Air Corps. He was no moron! I served as an officer in the US Navy for 5 years, and I can assure you that the men I served with were not morons! The military screens all recruits with a so called AFQT -- Armed Forces Qualification Test, which is in reality an IQ test. Moronic IQ is defined as topping out at 69 or 70 -- well below minimum standards for service in the military.
"The US military has minimum enlistment standards at about the IQ 85 level. There have been two experiments with lowering this to 80 but in both cases these men could not master soldiering well enough to justify their costs.[112]"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient


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## Ruthanne

Lavinia said:


> I think that is what we are all hoping...that it's just a show of bravado.


Hopefully we all hope that, unless there are some hoping for a war of that magnitude!  I never know anymore.


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## Chris P Bacon

I sure hope they wait until the Super Bowl is over to begin any war.


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## Sunny

Irwin said:


> Russia is an Asian country — not European, but yeah, it's not a good situation.


I thought Russia was partly in Europe also. Not sure, though.


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## Pepper

You are correct @Sunny


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## Pepper

The President is the chief negotiator, that's part of the job to deal directly with other world leaders


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## Trila

Ruthanne said:


> Personally I don't think anything will happen.  I hope I'm right.


I hope you are right, too!


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## Ruthanne

Don't forget--no politics please.


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## Trila

Ruthanne said:


> Don't forget--no politics please.


Ooops!  Yes....I sincerely apologize.  So sorry!


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## Ruthanne

Trila said:


> Ooops!  Yes....I sincerely apologize.  So sorry!


Actually I didn't notice you posting anything political.  Someone else actually.  Just so we can keep this thread open, hopefully.


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## Trila

Ruthanne said:


> Actually I didn't notice you posting anything political.  Someone else actually.  Just so we can keep this thread open, hopefully.


Thanks for "keeping me on the straight and narrow!"  LOL


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## Don M.

Putin's maximin insult to the U.S. and Biden would be if he launched his attack during the Super Bowl.


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## Chet

I think Putin is saber rattling as a warning to Ukraine not to join NATO. I don't think he will. Too many consequences.


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## David777

Don't trust most news media stories about what is going on due to political agendas.   First some of this is about aggressive NATO ambitions of their militarists that lost purpose after the USSR broke up.

https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion

Second, the following is a thorough primer including history going back centuries.  

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know


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## RadishRose

from the Wall St Journal this morning-


"KYIV, Ukraine—U.S. officials are warning that Russia could be about to attack Ukraine. For many citizens in this embattled country, the assault has already begun.

Ukrainian officials say that Russia, which has positioned more than 100,000 troops around three sides of Ukraine, is stepping up a destabilization campaign involving cyberattacks, economic disruption and a new tactic: hundreds of fake bomb threats.

The tactics illustrate how Russian President      Vladimir Putin             can maintain pressure on Ukraine without escalating to a shooting war that could provoke sanctions from the West. Ukrainian officials say a destabilization campaign is more likely than a large-scale invasion."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia...threats-cyberattacks-ukraine-says-11644748413


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## ElCastor

David777 said:


> Don't trust most news media stories about what is going on due to political agendas.   First some of this is about aggressive NATO ambitions of their militarists that lost purpose after the USSR broke up.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion
> 
> Second, the following is a thorough primer including history going back centuries.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know


Don't trust media political agendas? Good advice! But then you quote VOX? Careful, I think you just crossed the line.


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## OneEyedDiva

RFW said:


> As a wise man once said, here we go again.


Yep...I was thinking the *same* thing. @Irwin don't sanctions usually wind up hurting the citizens more than the high officials in governments?


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## David777

ElCastor said:


> Don't trust media political agendas? Good advice! But then you quote VOX? Careful, I think you just crossed the line.


I'm not afraid of reading and assessing truthful value of inputs from all parts of the political spectrum, because I can.  The Vox article is worth reading, don't be afraid.


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## Murrmurr

David777 said:


> Don't trust most news media stories about what is going on due to political agendas.   First some of this is about aggressive NATO ambitions of their militarists that lost purpose after the USSR broke up.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion
> 
> Second, the following is a thorough primer including history going back centuries.
> 
> https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know


And it should be pointed out that Crimea and the region immediately around Donetsk are populated by people who speak Russian, whose culture is Russian, and whose politics lean toward communism/socialism. Basically, the majority in those regions consider themselves Russian and want autonomy while Ukraine wants them to remain Ukrainian. I'm sure you know there have been 3 failed attempts to reach a mutually satisfying agreement.


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## Irwin

Don M. said:


> Putin's maximin insult to the U.S. and Biden would be if he launched his attack during the Super Bowl.


He may be that evil.


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## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> And it should be pointed out that Crimea and the region immediately around Donetsk are populated by people who speak Russian, whose culture is Russian, and whose politics lean toward communism/socialism. Basically, the majority in those regions consider themselves Russian and want autonomy while Ukraine wants them to remain Ukrainian. I'm sure you know there have been 3 failed attempts to reach a mutually satisfying agreement.





Murrmurr said:


> And it should be pointed out that Crimea and the region immediately around Donetsk are populated by people who speak Russian, whose culture is Russian, and whose politics lean toward communism/socialism. Basically, the majority in those regions consider themselves Russian and want autonomy while Ukraine wants them to remain Ukrainian. I'm sure you know there have been 3 failed attempts to reach a mutually satisfying agreement.


Interesting how that Russianization came to be. The process, a Ukrainian holocaust, came to be known as the Holodomor.

"1930 -- 1.5 million Ukrainians in the countryside fall victim to Stalin’s “dekulakization” policies, Over the extended period of collectivization, armed dekulakization brigades forcibly confiscate land, livestock and other property, and evict entire families. Close to half a million individuals in Ukraine are dragged from their homes, packed into freight trains, and shipped to remote, uninhabited areas such as Siberia where they are left, often without food or shelter. A great many, especially children, die in transit or soon thereafter. 
The remaining farmers are hounded to give up their land, livestock, and equipment and join the collective farms. As the traditional structures of rural livelihood disintegrate, the religious clergy are demonized and arrested or deported, and their churches destroyed or repurposed for grain storage or other secular use."  
https://holodomorct.org/holodomor-facts-and-history/


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## mellowyellow

Murrmurr said:


> And it should be pointed out that Crimea and the region immediately around Donetsk are populated by people who speak Russian, whose culture is Russian, and whose politics lean toward communism/socialism. Basically, the majority in those regions consider themselves Russian and want autonomy while Ukraine wants them to remain Ukrainian. I'm sure you know there have been 3 failed attempts to reach a mutually satisfying agreement.


Yes, that's true and wish we could find out how many Ukrainians are prepared to lay down their lives for this impending war, it's impossible to find out what the consensus of the people really is.


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## Warrigal

Murrmurr said:


> And it should be pointed out that Crimea and the region immediately around Donetsk are populated by people who speak Russian, whose culture is Russian, and whose politics lean toward communism/socialism. Basically, the majority in those regions consider themselves Russian and want autonomy while Ukraine wants them to remain Ukrainian. I'm sure you know there have been 3 failed attempts to reach a mutually satisfying agreement.


And WW II was begun with Hitler using the same excuse to annex the Sudetenland i.e. there were a lot of German speaking people there. The cost of that move to the rest of Europe, including Germany, was catastrophic. 

It didn't end well for the Sudeten Germans either. Some background-

The *Sudetenland* is the historical German name for the northern, southern, and western areas of former Czechoslovakia which were inhabited primarily by Sudeten Germans. These German speakers had predominated in the border districts of Bohemia, Moravia, and Czech Silesia since the Middle Ages. Sudetenland had been since the 9th century an integral part of the Czech state (first within the Duchy of Bohemia and later the Kingdom of Bohemia) both geographically and politically.

The word "Sudetenland" did not come into being until the early part of the 20th century and did not come to prominence until almost two decades into the century, after the First World War, when Austria-Hungary was dismembered and the Sudeten Germans found themselves living in the new country of Czechoslovakia. The _Sudeten crisis_ of 1938 was provoked by the Pan-Germanist demands of Germany that the Sudetenland be annexed to Germany, which happened after the later Munich Agreement. Part of the borderland was invaded and annexed by Poland. Afterwards, the formerly unrecognized Sudetenland became an administrative division of Germany. When Czechoslovakia was reconstituted after the Second World War, the Sudeten Germans were expelled and the region today is inhabited almost exclusively by Czech speakers.


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## Bellbird

Ukraine is now looking to negotiate with Putin,


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## hawkdon

Seems like about 6 of those MOAB's well placed would take care of the putin issue there at the border....


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## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Interesting how that Russianization came to be. The process, a Ukrainian holocaust, came to be known as the Holodomor.
> 
> "1930 -- 1.5 million Ukrainians in the countryside fall victim to Stalin’s “dekulakization” policies, Over the extended period of collectivization, armed dekulakization brigades forcibly confiscate land, livestock and other property, and evict entire families. Close to half a million individuals in Ukraine are dragged from their homes, packed into freight trains, and shipped to remote, uninhabited areas such as Siberia where they are left, often without food or shelter. A great many, especially children, die in transit or soon thereafter.
> The remaining farmers are hounded to give up their land, livestock, and equipment and join the collective farms. As the traditional structures of rural livelihood disintegrate, the religious clergy are demonized and arrested or deported, and their churches destroyed or repurposed for grain storage or other secular use."
> https://holodomorct.org/holodomor-facts-and-history/


Yes, it was a pogrom on steroids. Most of those people were Jews.


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## Nosy Bee-54

Ukraine may not be able to stop the invasion but they can may life hell during occupation. I expect there will be a well supplied/armed insurgency. Objective would be a slow burn of body bags sent back to Putin.


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## Murrmurr

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Ukraine may not be able to stop the invasion but they can may life hell during occupation. I expect there will be a well supplied/armed insurgency. Objective would be a slow burn of body bags sent back to Putin.


You got that right. That's how the US will avoid putting boots on the ground.


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## Chet

I think Putin is only saber rattling. NATO is getting too close for comfort if Ukraine joins.


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## Murrmurr

Chet said:


> I think Putin is only saber rattling. NATO is getting too close for comfort if Ukraine joins.


I'm not so sure. It's an awful lot of rattling - way more than necessary.
In any case, our president should listen to what the Ukrainian gov't wants, and act accordingly.


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## Warrigal

Murrmurr said:


> I'm not so sure. It's an awful lot of rattling - way more than necessary.
> In any case, our president should listen to what the Ukrainian gov't wants, and act accordingly.


Trouble is, the US has no treaty with Ukraine since they are not part of NATO.
Support could be given but sending troops in would have to be something like the "advisors" sent into Vietnam to assist the regime of the President Diem.  We all know how that developed over time.


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## mellowyellow

Stalin was the devil himself when he committed genocide on the Ukrainian people in 1930, how can Putin possibly believe that they have forgotten what their friendly ally did to them.


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## mellowyellow

_Russia’s ambassador to the EU has said Moscow would be within its rights to launch a “counterattack” if it felt it needed to protect Russian citizens living in eastern Ukraine..

“We will not invade Ukraine unless we are provoked to do that,” said Vladimir Chizhov. “If the Ukrainians launch an attack against Russia, you shouldn’t be surprised if we counterattack. Or, if they start blatantly killing Russian citizens anywhere – Donbas or wherever.”

US officials went public last month with claims they had evidence of a plan to make a “very graphic” fake video of a Ukrainian attack.

Donbas is the region of eastern Ukraine where the Kremlin has armed and funded an insurgency since 2014 where more than 14,000 people have been killed.

 It has also, in recent years, handed out hundreds of thousands of Russian passports to residents of two so-called “people’s republics”, which are no longer controlled by Kyiv._

Source: The Guardian


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## jerry old

Had to read a fat book on WW I, which resulted between 12-22 million deaths...
I remember the week before hostilities actually began, the Kaiser and the Czar spent their time praying that war would not occur, when they had
finished their prayers, each leader would move more troops to their borders


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## Murrmurr

Warrigal said:


> Trouble is, the US has no treaty with Ukraine since they are not part of NATO.
> Support could be given but sending troops in would have to be something like the "advisors" sent into Vietnam to assist the regime of the President Diem.  We all know how that developed over time.


Or, as happened with Vietnam, (fabricate a story about) an act of aggression against something American; human, machine, or structure.

I seriously don't see that happening. Just pointing it out.


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## Ruthanne

It remains to be seen.  I still think nothing will happen and some diplomacy will.


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## AnnieA

Purwell said:


> Well blow me! It's in the Daily Mail, must be true......cough, cough.


Oh, please.  At least the DM isn't polarized in that they take pot shots at everyone politically.   And if you ignore the trashy celeb stuff, occasionally their original, deeper pieces are quite good. 

In the article @hollydolly quoted, the original source--Der Spiegle--was referenced so you can use the DM piece to research further.  That's a necessity these days with any news source since there is no longer unbiased journalism.


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## Murrmurr

AnnieA said:


> Oh, please.  At least the DM isn't polarized in that they take pot shots at everyone politically.   And if you ignore the trashy celeb stuff, occasionally their original, deeper pieces are quite good.
> 
> In the article @hollydolly quoted, the original source--Der Spiegle--was referenced so you can use the DM piece to research further.  That's a necessity these days with any news source since there is no longer unbiased journalism.


Der Spiegle has a solid reputation, and it's been around for a long time too.


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## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> Yes, it was a pogrom on steroids. Most of those people were Jews.


The Holodomor, a pogrom aimed at Jews? Granted some Ukrainian farmers were Jews, but many were not. The Holodomor was aimed at eradicating the Ukrainian family farm system and transforming it into a Russian styled collectivization, manned by Russian farm workers who replaced the murdered and deported Ukrainian families.  In doings so Stalin added the "breadbasket" of Eastern Europe to his growing communist empire.

Jerusalem Post:
"Zuroff: Israel should not recognize Holodomor as genocide
The Holodomor “is definitely not a genocide,” said Zuroff, the head of the Jerusalem office of the Simon Wiesenthal Center."
... "“It was not ethnically oriented, it was economically and politically oriented – these were crimes against a particular class of people, like the kulaks – or against political opponents,” Zuroff asserted. This was not, he said, an effort “to destroy a people.”"
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Zuroff-Israel-should-not-recognize-Holodomor-as-genocide-578308


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## Irwin

mellowyellow said:


> _Russia’s ambassador to the EU has said Moscow would be within its rights to launch a “counterattack” if it felt it needed to protect Russian citizens living in eastern Ukraine..
> 
> “We will not invade Ukraine unless we are provoked to do that,” said Vladimir Chizhov. “If the Ukrainians launch an attack against Russia, you shouldn’t be surprised if we counterattack. Or, if they start blatantly killing Russian citizens anywhere – Donbas or wherever.”
> 
> US officials went public last month with claims they had evidence of a plan to make a “very graphic” fake video of a Ukrainian attack.
> 
> Donbas is the region of eastern Ukraine where the Kremlin has armed and funded an insurgency since 2014 where more than 14,000 people have been killed.
> 
> It has also, in recent years, handed out hundreds of thousands of Russian passports to residents of two so-called “people’s republics”, which are no longer controlled by Kyiv._
> 
> Source: The Guardian


Yep, the Russians laid out exactly what their plans are, and once they've "counterattacked," they'll keep repeating that lie over and over until enough people (see Fox "news") join in and help propagate the lie, as they are wont to do. In fact, Tucker Carlson has already stated that we should be supporting Russia — not Ukraine, in this standoff.


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## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> The Holodomor, a pogrom aimed at Jews? Granted some Ukrainian farmers were Jews, but many were not. The Holodomor was aimed at eradicating the Ukrainian family farm system and transforming it into a Russian styled collectivization, manned by Russian farm workers who replaced the murdered and deported Ukrainian families.  In doings so Stalin added the "breadbasket" of Eastern Europe to his growing communist empire.
> 
> Jerusalem Post:
> "Zuroff: Israel should not recognize Holodomor as genocide
> The Holodomor “is definitely not a genocide,” said Zuroff, the head of the Jerusalem office of the Simon Wiesenthal Center."
> ... "“It was not ethnically oriented, it was economically and politically oriented – these were crimes against a particular class of people, like the kulaks – or against political opponents,” Zuroff asserted. This was not, he said, an effort “to destroy a people.”"
> https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Zuroff-Israel-should-not-recognize-Holodomor-as-genocide-578308


A pogrom is not a genocide, and I didn't say that it was. Severe pogroms took place in that region during that period and after. I wasn't confusing the two, I know they are separate events. I could have written that post better, apparently.


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## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> A pogrom is not a genocide, and I didn't say that it was. Severe pogroms took place in that region during that period and after. I wasn't confusing the two, I know they are separate events. I could have written that post better, apparently.


Bottom line, beats the Hell out of me what's going to happen there, but we may find out in the next few days. I just hope we don't get too involved. A similar situation is evolving in Taiwan. Looks like the days of the US being the leading world power are drawing to a close.


----------



## WhatInThe

Apparently the invasion has been cancelled. 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets...gher-investors-fear-russian-attack-on-ukraine


----------



## hollydolly

All supposition on behalf of Russia's involvement in this thus far  , however this is the headlines today....

_Russia__ has started a 'hybrid war', it was feared tonight, as several key Ukrainian websites, including banks, government departments and the ministry of defence, were hit by a massive cyber attack.

Ukraine has been under constant attack from Russian and Kremlin-backed hackers since Moscow's 2014 annexation of Crimea.

Cyber espionage, damage to databases and servers, disruption to power and communications and disinformation are all now routine weapons in the Russian armoury.

Tonight, several major Ukrainian banks, including PrivatBank, Oschad and the State Savings Bank of Ukraine, experienced issues with transactions and mobile apps, along with other outages at the Ministry of defence and armed services websites.

Ukrainian media reported that customers were finding that their banking apps were not working and people could not pay for goods with cards.

A statement from the ministry of defence in Kyiv, released on Facebook, said they had suffered a probable DDoS (distributed denial of service) attack - a malicious attempt to disrupt a server or network by overwhelming the target with a flood of internet traffic.

The statement added: 'Scheduled technical work is currently underway on the restoration of the regular functioning of the web portal of the ministry.'

The government agency defending Ukraine against cyber wars, the Centre for Strategic Innovation and Information Security, tried to calm fears.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...defence-banks-alleged-Russian-hybrid-war.html_


----------



## mellowyellow

The Russian TASS news site reported that an attempted terrorist attack had been thwarted in Luhansk, a city controlled by pro-Russian separatists in the disputed Donbas region. The report claimed that the Ukrainian Defense Ministry and Ukrainian special services may have been involved.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-696579

Seems like the  fake attack was leaked well ahead of Putin's plans and thanks must go to the person/persons responsible.


----------



## WhatInThe

Putin is saying 'Gotcha' once a minute now at least. I thought he was a ruthless dictator/killer but not a practical joker.


----------



## Autumn72

Trila said:


> I hope you are right, too!


I was told by a man that the word hope is a empty word...that hope does not help anyone with reality.
World War 3 I feel as this Chinese covid19   is meant to bring ah  weaken USA etc. To be able for Russia and China to hold hands in the downfall of USA ETC. AS has shown the elimination of way too many people is a kind of help to make more room it seems why hospitals are overgrown with covid-19 patients dying as 911 is called and you realize oh THE ERS are booked up. So you wait 5 hours. Now if i call a private ambulance the cost $18 000 I receive better treatment. Facts on my bill statement. 2021.


----------



## Jace

I heard on a radio talk show...yes, the old fashioned way....
Speculation...
Biden made a deal with Putin...for him-(B) to look good for  the next election..
But..I didn't hear what Putin gets out of it.
Or... it was conjecture.


----------



## Murrmurr

Jace said:


> I heard on a radio talk show...yes, the old fashioned way....
> Speculation...
> Biden made a deal with Putin...for him-(B) to look for  the next election..
> But..I didn't hear what Putin gets out of it.
> Or... it was conjecture.


Unless the radio talk show host actually talked to Biden and Putin, then conjecture. Or, more likely, invention.


----------



## Murrmurr

Autumn72 said:


> I was told by a man that the word hope is a empty word...that hope does not help anyone with reality.


I suggest you ignore people who don't give Hope any credit. If you _act_ on your hopes, you can change your reality.


----------



## Snow74

Packerjohn said:


> It's the same ole' story.  Billions of dollars to be made by those that build military killing weapons.  Women, children and other innocent people going to be gassed or blown to pieces.  The politicians who started it all will hide behind their computer screens while the young men will be killed.  There is nothing glorious here and there are no good guys and there are no bad guys.  The world is going mad.  Covid19 madness will be replaced war madness.  People just never learn.
> 
> If you think that shelves in your store are strangely empty, the price of motor fuel, the price of home heating and the price of groceries is going up you haven't seen anything.  Wait until the war starts.  Another World War will make the death toll from Covid19 look like peanuts.  It will hardly be worth talking about anymore.
> 
> An intelligent test done at the end of WWI showed that 47% of soldiers were morons.  This is from "The Untold History of the United States" by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick.  By definition, a moron is "A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive."  Remember, this test was done 104 years ago.  I wonder what that test would show in 2022?


My dad fought in WW2 don’t figure he would take kindly to being called a Moron,..nor would some of my Uncles…


----------



## Ruthanne

Autumn72 said:


> I was told by a man that the word hope is a empty word...that hope does not help anyone with reality.
> World War 3 I feel as this Chinese covid19   is meant to bring ah  weaken USA etc. To be able for Russia and China to hold hands in the downfall of USA ETC. AS has shown the elimination of way too many people is a kind of help to make more room it seems why hospitals are overgrown with covid-19 patients dying as 911 is called and you realize oh THE ERS are booked up. So you wait 5 hours. Now if i call a private ambulance the cost $18 000 I receive better treatment. Facts on my bill statement. 2021.


I love the word hope. It means so much in this world of uncertainty to be inspired by hope.  Sometimes it's all we have.  Whoever that man Was, he is mistaken.  Hope is A great treasure upon which we can draw from to help us along our paths.


----------



## Tish

I came across this in my Youtube feed.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Tish said:


> I came across this in my Youtube feed.


One thing left out is China is Ukraine's largest trading partner and China is spending billions in Ukraine for land and infrastructure improvements to Ukraine's deep water ports. Thus it could be stated that China would not want Russia to invade Ukraine. 

However, Nordstream 2 weakens Ukraine's position and ability to collect transit fees for natural gas. This places Ukraine into needing financing, which creates a bigger opening for China's Belt and Road initiative. 

NATO is clearly signaling that Ukraine will never be a part of the Western Alliance, which ultimately is the goal of both China and Russia, imo.


----------



## Tish

@Harry Le Hermit you make a valid point.


----------



## Signe The Survivor




----------



## Tish

Just in, Sky News reports that a kindergarten in Ukrain has suffered shelling damage.
And so it begins.


----------



## Murrmurr

Tish said:


> Just in, Sky News reports that a kindergarten in Ukrain has suffered shelling damage.
> And so it begins.


"Full scale war" ?

SORRY! No...that was from 2015!! 
Sorry!


----------



## Murrmurr

RadishRose said:


> Oh Nooooooo!


No, that video I posted was from 2015.
So Sorry!

I'm still looking into the school incident.


----------



## Murrmurr

RadishRose said:


> Oh Nooooooo!


On Feb 17, 2022

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/kindergarten-damaged-shelling-reported-east-105500119.html


----------



## mellowyellow

*The top Kremlin mouthpieces on Russian state TV think that now is the perfect time for President Vladimir Putin to sit for an interview on Fox News.

*_For many months, translated clips of Fox News host Tucker Carlson have been making the rounds on Russian state television, delighting hosts, pundits and experts with their pro-Russian slant. Some of the top propagandists even worried out loud that Carlson’s apparent pro-Kremlin bias might result in him being “marginalized” or silenced._

https://www.thedailybeast.com/tucker-carlson-interview-with-putin-demanded-by-margarita-simonyan


----------



## 1955

We all know Russia wants Ukraine. What bothers me is that China wants Taiwan and in both cases the US is in the way. Also, both these countries hate that the worlds currency is the dollar. If China shuts off exports to the US we would be in a pinch financially and have a hard time maintaining our military.

Something to ponder.

Also, it's interesting that some of my engineering software updates from both Russia & China


----------



## RadishRose

Why a kindergarten and a children's hospital? Sounds like false flags to me. Fighting between between Kyiv's forces and pro-Russian separatists gives Putin an excuse to move in. 

"In the past few weeks, U.S. officials have warned several times that Russia plans to create the *appearance* of an attack on its own forces and broadcast those images to the world. 

Such a “false flag” operation, they alleged, would give Russia the pretext to invade Ukraine by provoking *shock and outrage*."

What's causes more outrage than children under attack?

https://news.yahoo.com/false-flag-attacks-could-russia-211233327.html


----------



## Murrmurr

1955 said:


> We all know Russia wants Ukraine. What bothers me is that China wants Taiwan and in both cases the US is in the way. Also, both these countries hate that the worlds currency is the dollar. If China shuts off exports to the US we would be in a pinch financially and have a hard time maintaining our military.
> 
> Something to ponder.
> 
> Also, it's interesting that some of my engineering software updates from both Russia & China


Why would China shut off exports to the US ? The American market is a major source of revenue for them. And that revenue funds their military. Our military is funded primarily through the federal reserve bank.


----------



## 1955

Murrmurr said:


> Why would China shut off exports to the US ?


Even though at one time our military machine was supposed to use all American components this is no longer the case. Both Russia & China would love nothing more than to see our dominance falter so Russia and China can take Ukraine and Taiwan, respectively. Hopefully I’m wrong but China could interrupt our military supply chain (*rare earth elements* & *electronics*) to such a degree we might not be able to defend these countries and they could move in. Both Russia & China working together could give us a run for the money.

It’s just a hypothesis on my part.


----------



## Murrmurr

1955 said:


> Even though at one time our military machine was supposed to use all American components this is no longer the case. Both Russia & China would love nothing more than to see our dominance falter so Russia and China can take Ukraine and Taiwan, respectively. Hopefully I’m wrong but China could interrupt our military supply chain (*rare earth elements* & *electronics*) to such a degree we might not be able to defend these countries and they could move in. Both Russia & China working together could give us a run for the money.
> 
> It’s just a hypothesis on my part.


I've read that part of the discussion (a month or 2 ago) between US and Taiwan centered around Taiwan's capabilities for manufacturing computer chips (they can and do) as well as the type of components you alluded to (unnamed in the article, but probably military).

Yeah, we'll just have to wait and see, but there's a 100% likelihood that serious discussions are taking place and being kept secret (imo). I'm not overly concerned yet.


----------



## 1955

On the bright side, Intel has decided to build 2 *new fab plants* in the US.
We really need to return more high-tech manufacturing to the US - Good for Intel.


----------



## hollydolly

_A journalist has punched a pro-Russian politician in the face on live TV in Ukraine and put him in a headlock in front of the former prime minister in a debate over Vladimir Putin.

The shocking brawl broke out between lawmaker Nestor Shufrych from the pro-Russian party Opposition Platform - For Life, and journalist Yuriy Butusov.

The politician was attacked by his fellow guest after he refused to condemn Vladimir Putin, as Russian troops amasses troops on the border for a potential invasion. 

See the video of all the action here....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ian-hit-face-headlock-journalist-live-TV.html_


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> _A journalist has punched a pro-Russian politician in the face on live TV in Ukraine and put him in a headlock in front of the former prime minister in a debate over Vladimir Putin.
> 
> The shocking brawl broke out between lawmaker Nestor Shufrych from the pro-Russian party Opposition Platform - For Life, and journalist Yuriy Butusov.
> 
> The politician was attacked by his fellow guest after he refused to condemn Vladimir Putin, as Russian troops amasses troops on the border for a potential invasion.
> 
> See the video of all the action here....
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ian-hit-face-headlock-journalist-live-TV.html_


Holy Cow!


----------



## oldiebutgoody

1955 said:


> We all know Russia wants Ukraine. What bothers me is that China wants Taiwan and in both cases the US is in the way. Also, both these countries hate that the worlds currency is the dollar. If China shuts off exports to the US we would be in a pinch financially and have a hard time maintaining our military.
> 
> Something to ponder.
> 
> Also, it's interesting that some of my engineering software updates from both Russia & China





The USA does not recognize secession and fought a war to maintain unity in the 1860s.  Thus, no surprise that Russia and China want what is rightfully theirs.  Taiwan is Chinese and has no right to declare itself free of China.  Donbas is majority Russian. In fact at one time it was called "the heart of Russia".  Both government have a right to take what is theirs. The USA has no business sticking its war profit seeking nose in any of this.


----------



## FastTrax

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gop-report-wrongdoing-biden-son-ties-ukraine-firm/story?id=73192146

www.bbc.com/news/world-54553132

www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/

www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/15/fact-check-conspiracy-theories-falsely-link-bidens-victory-ukraine/4149335001/


----------



## hollydolly

_Russia..has invaded Ukraine, UK health secretary Sajid Javid said this morning, after Russian tanks, armoured vehicles and trucks were seen rolling into eastern regions overnight following Putin's orders to deploy on what he described as 'peacekeeping' missions. 

A column of armoured vehicles was spotted in Donetsk, the main city of one of the two so-called 'republics', in the early hours of this morning. No insignia were visible on the vehicles, but there is little doubt they are Russian forces deployed on Putin's orders. 

At the same time, Ukraine said heavy shelling broke out along nearly all 250 miles of its frontline with the breakaway provinces, leaving two of its soldiers dead and 12 injured in a major escalation in violence.

'We are waking up to a very dark day in Europe,' Javid said early Tuesday. 'We have seen that Putin has recognised breakaway eastern regions in Ukraine and from the reports we can already tell that he has sent in tanks and troops. From that you can conclude that the invasion of Ukraine has begun.'

Prime Minister Boris Johnson, speaking moments later, said a 'first barrage of UK economic sanctions against Russia' will be revealed today - though stopped short of calling last night's move an 'invasion', saying instead that Putin is 'bent on a full scale invasion.'

Before Putin's order, world leaders including Joe Biden and Boris Johnson had made it clear that any Russian incursion, no matter how limited, into Ukrainian territory would be considered a fresh invasion and spark an unprecedented flurry of sanctions.  

But the word 'invasion' was barely mentioned overnight and action was limited. Joe Biden banned all new US trade with the breakaway regions but stopped far short of the 'swift and decisive' response that had been threatened. White House spokesman Jen Psaki promised more sanctions will follow later today. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isis-Invasion-begun-Sajid-Javid-declares.html_


----------



## Pepper

Putin's ultimate plan is to rule Europe.  All of Europe.  Not saying he'll succeed, but he'd love to.  It might end up like in 1984 Russia gets Europe; China gets Asia; US gets the Americas; and Africa gets shared.

I just depressed myself.  Hate those oligarchs.


----------



## hollydolly

Pepper said:


> Putin's ultimate plan is to rule Europe.  All of Europe.  Not saying he'll succeed, but he'd love to.  It might end up like in 1984 Russia gets Europe; China gets Asia; US gets the Americas; and Africa gets shared.
> 
> I just depressed myself.  Hate those oligarchs.


It's all very worrying, given his instability....


----------



## Alligatorob

hollydolly said:


> Russia..has invaded Ukraine, UK health secretary Sajid Javid said this morning, after Russian tanks, armoured vehicles and trucks were seen rolling into eastern regions overnight following Putin's orders to deploy on what he described as 'peacekeeping' missions.


Yep, we can stop counting...

Not sure what the right thing for us to do now is.  Letting Putin get away with more and more sure doesn't feel right.  On the other hand I don't see this as quite analogous to Hitler and Poland.  NATO can, and I believe would, stop Putin from going much further...  

Still hoping for a peaceful end.


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## Furryanimal

hollydolly said:


> _Russia..has invaded Ukraine, UK health secretary Sajid Javid said this morning, after Russian tanks, armoured vehicles and trucks were seen rolling into eastern regions overnight following Putin's orders to deploy on what he described as 'peacekeeping' missions.
> 
> A column of armoured vehicles was spotted in Donetsk, the main city of one of the two so-called 'republics', in the early hours of this morning. No insignia were visible on the vehicles, but there is little doubt they are Russian forces deployed on Putin's orders.
> 
> At the same time, Ukraine said heavy shelling broke out along nearly all 250 miles of its frontline with the breakaway provinces, leaving two of its soldiers dead and 12 injured in a major escalation in violence.
> 
> 'We are waking up to a very dark day in Europe,' Javid said early Tuesday. 'We have seen that Putin has recognised breakaway eastern regions in Ukraine and from the reports we can already tell that he has sent in tanks and troops. From that you can conclude that the invasion of Ukraine has begun.'
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson, speaking moments later, said a 'first barrage of UK economic sanctions against Russia' will be revealed today - though stopped short of calling last night's move an 'invasion', saying instead that Putin is 'bent on a full scale invasion.'
> 
> Before Putin's order, world leaders including Joe Biden and Boris Johnson had made it clear that any Russian incursion, no matter how limited, into Ukrainian territory would be considered a fresh invasion and spark an unprecedented flurry of sanctions.
> 
> But the word 'invasion' was barely mentioned overnight and action was limited. Joe Biden banned all new US trade with the breakaway regions but stopped far short of the 'swift and decisive' response that had been threatened. White House spokesman Jen Psaki promised more sanctions will follow later today.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isis-Invasion-begun-Sajid-Javid-declares.html_





hollydolly said:


> _Russia..has invaded Ukraine, UK health secretary Sajid Javid said this morning, after Russian tanks, armoured vehicles and trucks were seen rolling into eastern regions overnight following Putin's orders to deploy on what he described as 'peacekeeping' missions.
> 
> A column of armoured vehicles was spotted in Donetsk, the main city of one of the two so-called 'republics', in the early hours of this morning. No insignia were visible on the vehicles, but there is little doubt they are Russian forces deployed on Putin's orders.
> 
> At the same time, Ukraine said heavy shelling broke out along nearly all 250 miles of its frontline with the breakaway provinces, leaving two of its soldiers dead and 12 injured in a major escalation in violence.
> 
> 'We are waking up to a very dark day in Europe,' Javid said early Tuesday. 'We have seen that Putin has recognised breakaway eastern regions in Ukraine and from the reports we can already tell that he has sent in tanks and troops. From that you can conclude that the invasion of Ukraine has begun.'
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson, speaking moments later, said a 'first barrage of UK economic sanctions against Russia' will be revealed today - though stopped short of calling last night's move an 'invasion', saying instead that Putin is 'bent on a full scale invasion.'
> 
> Before Putin's order, world leaders including Joe Biden and Boris Johnson had made it clear that any Russian incursion, no matter how limited, into Ukrainian territory would be considered a fresh invasion and spark an unprecedented flurry of sanctions.
> 
> But the word 'invasion' was barely mentioned overnight and action was limited. Joe Biden banned all new US trade with the breakaway regions but stopped far short of the 'swift and decisive' response that had been threatened. White House spokesman Jen Psaki promised more sanctions will follow later today.
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...isis-Invasion-begun-Sajid-Javid-declares.html_


Well,he has only actually sent troops to the part of Ukraine (not forgetting Crimea) that he has been occupying since 2014.
He has not made any further incursion into Ukraine.
But recognising the breakaway republics is a flagrant breach of international law.
My online friend in Kyiv is very pessimistic.
She told me this morning ‘we are going to be destroyed while the world watches’
I fear for her future..not least because she will be in uniform if a wider war starts( it has been ongoing since 2014..largely ignored by the world at large).
Now is not the time to be indecisive,
Putin is a bully of the highest order.
The severest possible sanctions must be applied immediately.
Germany has already announced the suspension of Nordstream2.
I hope for the best but fear the worst.....
i have been scouring various news sites for weeks...Kyiv Post.Kyiv Independent,Ukrinform,Reuters.com,Moscow Times amongst them.
And i have webcams from various parts of Ukraine bookmarked.
You look at them and life in Ukraine continues normally.
But it is clear my Ukrainian friend who is only 23 is becoming increasingly angry and concerned she may not see 24.
Putin has to be stopped.


----------



## Jackie23

Let's hope for some kind of plan coming from within Russia.......
A retired Russian general's criticism may signal a larger problem for Putin​Retired Russian Colonel-General Leonid Ivashov, the head of the All-Russian Officers Assembly, has gone public with a statement that calls for Russian President Vladimir Putin to resign over the confrontation involving Ukraine. To remove any doubt as to his message, Ivashov, 78, followed the public statement with an interview on a liberal Russian media outlet, Echo Moskvy, insisting that he was speaking in the name of the assembly of retired and reservist Russian officers which he heads.

In the absence of an active marshal of the army — such as Marshal Georgy Zhukov, the celebrated Red Army general of World War II — a colonel-general would be the second-highest rank in the Russian army. Ivashov served as a senior aide to the country’s defense minister and as the ministry’s chief of general affairs before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991; he subsequently held other high-ranking military posts and commands before retiring

As Michael McFaul, a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, tweeted: “This is a big deal. At one time, General Ivashov was one of the most respected (and hawkish) leaders in the Russian [ministry of defense]. Russian generals don’t usually get involved in public policy debates, especially ones like Ivashov.”

Under Putin, Russia has become an international “pariah,” he says. Its annexation of Crimea is not recognized by credible nations, and Russia is widely viewed as a rogue state because of Putin’s “criminal policy of provoking war.” The massive buildup of Russian troops on the Ukraine and Belarus borders is not to deal with a threat from the West. Rather, it is to divert attention from the internal health, demographic challenges, living-standards collapse and pervasive corruption that the Russian citizenry is suffering under the mismanagement of an incompetent Putin regime.

Adding to Ivashov’s concerns is his fear that Turkey could join with Ukraine in a military alliance if war does break out. That, of course, would be an entirely different ball game for the Russians to confront.

https://thehill.com/opinion/interna...als-criticism-may-signal-a-larger-problem-for


----------



## Pepper

Hope Retired Russian Colonel-General Leonid Ivashov doesn't do a disappearing act. Thanks, @Jackie23.  Very interesting.


----------



## Jackie23

Pepper said:


> Hope Retired Russian Colonel-General Leonid Ivashov doesn't do a disappearing act. Thanks, @Jackie23.  Very interesting.


Oh yeah.....I'm sure he is aware the risk........


----------



## Liberty

Embittered man, Putin is.  Nostalgically seeking the former glory days of the KGB/USSR.
This says it all as far as the economy of today's Russia:


----------



## Tish

Well, Russia has tanks strategically placed, and so it begins.


----------



## Murrmurr

Tish said:


> Well, Russia has tanks strategically placed, and so it begins.


Putin's calling it a Peacekeeping Mission (right out of the American military playbook), except where was the chaos that would make such a mission necessary, and who asked him anyway?

So...yeah, right.


----------



## Tish

@Murrmurr I am so confused on this, we have been getting reports that Russia is only going to the areas of Ukraine that want to rejoin Russia.

I tell you, the waters on this one are getting murkier by the minute.


----------



## Murrmurr

Tish said:


> @Murrmurr I am so confused on this, we have been getting reports that Russia is only going to the areas of Ukraine that want to rejoin Russia.
> 
> I tell you, the waters on this one are getting murkier by the minute.


Very true. One can only hope that our people in intel and at the Pentagon know more than we do, and that they're sane.


----------



## AnnieA

Harry Le Hermit said:


> One thing left out is China is Ukraine's largest trading partner and China is spending billions in Ukraine for land and infrastructure improvements to Ukraine's deep water ports. Thus it could be stated that China would not want Russia to invade Ukraine.
> 
> However, Nordstream 2 weakens Ukraine's position and ability to collect transit fees for natural gas. This places Ukraine into needing financing, which creates a bigger opening for China's Belt and Road initiative.
> 
> NATO is clearly signaling that Ukraine will never be a part of the Western Alliance, which ultimately is the goal of both China and Russia, imo.



The China/Ukraine alliance is super interesting.   I somehow missed this post earlier.   Thanks for the info.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

AnnieA said:


> The China/Ukraine alliance is super interesting.


I don't expect China to jump on the save Ukraine bandwagon. This whole thing does benefit China's need for natural gas and the ability for Gazprom to easily finance pipelines to China. After factoring in foreign exchange rates, the EU was paying $5.14 @MBTU last year and is now paying $29.06 currently. Not saying Gazprom is raking in all that money, but someone is making a ton of money. This is all due to supply and demand, with demand outstripping supply. Which makes the whole pausing of Nordstream 2 odd, imo. But then, approval and adding the additional supply would bring down the price, which equates to less profit. Who benefits with Nordstream 2 paused?

In any case, Gazprom is building pipelines all over the place, with the notion of supplying China. What would really surprise most Americans is who owns big chunks of Gazprom, besides the Russian Government. Think too big to fail. Sanctions, however... will fail.


> Whatever happens to the Ukraine will be a Ukraine and Russia thing, as there is nothing meaningful the west can do or rather... will do. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.


We don't have the courage, and can't seem to have the wisdom to understand that.


----------



## Jules

The invasion has started.  What next?


----------



## Warrigal

Jules said:


> The invasion has started.  What next?


Here is a series of links to live updates from ABC (Australia)

Key events​
3m ago Ukraine President calls for anyone with military training to come forward
16m ago Ukraine President says he is building an 'anti-Putin coalition'
30m ago Ukraine's military says it has shot down Russian aircraft
1h ago Russian military have targeted Ukrainian infrastructure
2h ago 'The time to act is now': Ukraine Foreign Minister says invasion has been launched
2h ago Explosions reported in Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine
2h ago Ukraine reports shelling across the country, military equipment coming in through Crimea
3h ago Scott Morrison condemns the 'brutal', 'unprovoked' invasion of Ukraine
3h ago Joe Biden says Vladimir Putin has chosen 'premeditated war'
3h ago Vladimir Putin is speaking now, declares 'special military operation' in Donbas
7h ago Zelenskyy says Russia has approved an offensive against Ukraine
9h ago Ukraine hit with mass cyber attack
Updates can be found here:
Russia-Ukraine conflict live updates: Ukraine military says it has shot down Russian aircraft as missiles target infrastructure - ABC News​


----------



## Tish




----------



## ElCastor

Snow74 said:


> My dad fought in WW2 don’t figure he would take kindly to being called a Moron,..nor would some of my Uncles…


Same for my dad! I've previously disproved that 47% nonsense. The military administers an Armed Forces Qualification Test to prospective hires. "Morons" who sport IQs of 70 , or less, don't come close to qualifying. 

"The US military has minimum enlistment standards at about the IQ 85 level. There have been two experiments with lowering this to 80 but in both cases these men could not master soldiering well enough to justify their costs.[112]"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient


----------



## Tish




----------



## hollydolly

I can't believe it.. he's actually gone ahead and ordered a full on attack..., and he has stated at 6am this morning on Russian tv,   quote '' '_To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history_,’ 

I believe  he's lost his mind ....


----------



## hollydolly

From the Guardian...

*China’s embassy *in Ukraine is warning its citizens there to take cover as the situation has “deteriorated sharply”, according to a post on its WeChat page. It urges Chinese citizens and Chinese-funded enterprises to take shelter, and stay indoors away from glass windows, and to keep in touch with Chinese associations and representatives in the country. Those traveling by car should make sure they are able to refuel, and if they get stuck the embassy is suggesting they affix a Chinese flag to their car.

The reason for this isn’t totally clear. China has not so far ordered or suggested its citizens evacuate from Ukraine, as other governments have done in recent days and weeks. China’s government and President Xi Jinping have been forging closer ties with Russia and Putin in recent years, and there is a lot of speculation over exactly how China will handle the invasion. We reported a little earlier today that China’s ministry of foreign affairs is so far saving its condemnation for the US and allies, accusing them of fanning tensions and inciting war, while at the same time rejecting the characterisation of Russia’s move today as an “invasion”.

*The UK prime minister*_, Boris Johnson, said  he was “appalled by the horrific events in Ukraine” and had also spoken to Zelenskiy “to discuss next steps”.

“President Putin has chosen a path of bloodshed and destruction by launching this unprovoked attack on Ukraine. The UK and our allies will respond decisively,” he said._

*France’s president, Emmanuel Macron*, who had made a last ditch effort to broker peace through a summit between Putin and Biden, was in contact with Zelenskiy on his mobile phone early on Thursday.

He said: “France strongly condemns Russia’s decision to wage war on Ukraine. Russia must end its military operations immediately.

“France stands in solidarity with Ukraine. It stands with the Ukrainians and works with its partners and allies to end the war.”

_In a statement, *Germany’s chancellor, Olaf Scholz,* said: “Germany condemns in the strongest possible terms this unscrupulous act by President Putin. Our solidarity goes out to Ukraine and its people.”

The world “will not forget this day of shame”, Germany’s foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, said._

*Mario Draghi, Italy’s prime minister,*_ who has until now been cautious over imposing the most hard-hitting sanctions on Russia, suggested the EU would be unified in an immediate and tough response.

He said: “The Italian government condemns Russia’s attack on Ukraine. It is unjustified and unjustifiable.

“Italy is close to the Ukrainian people and institutions in this dramatic moment. We are working with European and Nato allies to respond immediately, with unity and determination.”

*Japan’s prime minister, Fumio Kishida*, said his government strongly condemned Russia’s one-sided aggression. A virtual meeting of the G7, the world’s seven biggest economies, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US, is scheduled for later on Thursday.

The prime minister of *Belgium, Alexander De Croo*, said his country strongly condemned the Russian attack on Ukraine, describing the moment of invasion as “Europe’s darkest hour since the second world war”.

He said: “This Russian aggression is unnecessary and unprovoked. Our hearts and minds are with the people of Ukraine.”

Shortly after reports broke of explosions near Kyiv, the *US president, Joe Biden*, accused his Russian counterpart, Vladimir Putin, of choosing a “premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering”.



“The prayers of the world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces,” he said.

“Russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the United States and its allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way,” Biden said. “The world will hold Russia accountable.”_


*Ursula von der Leyen and Charles Michel, the presidents of the European Commission and European Council,* issued a joint statement in which they promised financial and humanitarian assistance for Kyiv and vowed to “impose massive and severe consequences on Russia for its action”.

Von der Leyen said Putin was responsible “for bringing war back to Europe”, describing the Russian leader’s behaviour as “barbaric”, as she outlined the scale and scope of the punitive measures planned.

She said: “We will hold President Putin accountable for that. With this package, we will target strategic sectors of the Russian economy by blocking their access to key technologies and markets.

“We will weaken Russia’s economic base and its capacity to modernise. In addition, we will freeze Russian assets in the EU and stop the access of Russian banks to the European financial market.”


----------



## Della

hollydolly said:


> I can't believe it.. he's actually gone ahead and ordered a full on attack..., and he has stated at 6am this morning on Russian tv,   quote '' '_To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history_,’
> 
> I believe  he's lost his mind ....


He sure loves to wield his power. I don't know how you stop someone like this with no morals, just an enormous greed.  He's like a Bond villain wanting to rule the world.


----------



## todalake

ElCastor said:


> Interesting how that Russianization came to be. The process, a Ukrainian holocaust, came to be known as the Holodomor.
> 
> "1930 -- 1.5 million Ukrainians in the countryside fall victim to Stalin’s “dekulakization” policies, Over the extended period of collectivization, armed dekulakization brigades forcibly confiscate land, livestock and other property, and evict entire families. Close to half a million individuals in Ukraine are dragged from their homes, packed into freight trains, and shipped to remote, uninhabited areas such as Siberia where they are left, often without food or shelter. A great many, especially children, die in transit or soon thereafter.
> The remaining farmers are hounded to give up their land, livestock, and equipment and join the collective farms. As the traditional structures of rural livelihood disintegrate, the religious clergy are demonized and arrested or deported, and their churches destroyed or repurposed for grain storage or other secular use."
> https://holodomorct.org/holodomor-facts-and-history/


 What, Putin forgot to mention this!


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> I don't expect China to jump on the save Ukraine bandwagon. ... This is all due to supply and demand, with demand outstripping supply. Which* makes the whole pausing of Nordstream 2 odd, imo*. But then, approval and adding the additional supply would bring down the price, which equates to less profit. Who benefits with Nordstream 2 paused?
> 
> 
> *We don't have the courage, and can't seem to have the wisdom to understand that.*


I've read that Gazprom's product is poor quality. Be that as it may, it's delivered unrefined. I forget who refines it, so I'll have to look it up...but
Do you know?

Re; courage and wisdom, seems like all the old 4 & 5-star admirals & generals have been in a head-nodding rut since the early 90s - "Russia's been tamed, China's no threat" and too few of their underlings and advisors recognize that they let their guard down, and we should have prepared for this escalation of events as soon as The Wall came down. We're at least 2 decades behind on this, imo.


----------



## hollydolly

Ukrainian troops have shot down five Russian helicopters, destroyed dozens of tanks and captured dozens of troops in the first hours since Vladimir Putin ordered his forces to invade this morning. 

Kiev's military is far inferior to its Russian counterpart with an air defense system and air force dating back to the Soviet era.

But NATO and the US, despite deploying soldiers to neighbouring Romania in recent months, have made it clear that no troops will be sent and left the Ukrainian military to hold off the assault alone. 

By Thursday afternoon, battles were ongoing in Kiev, along the northern border with Belarus, in Luhansk and Donetsk in the east and around Kherson, the Dneiper River, and the port cities of Odessa and Mariupol in the south. 

Few expect Ukraine to emerge victorious from what is almost certain to be a prolonged, bloody, and vicious war - but so far, Kiev's forces have managed to inflict heavy losses on Putin's troops. 






Ukrainian forces have claimed to have shot out of the air at least four Russian KA-52 Alligator attack helicopters during a battle for Gostomel air base. A fifth helicopter (pictured) was forced to make an emergency landing at the field under heavy fire





Ukrainian forces detain servicemen of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic who were captured during the morning attack on the town of Schast'ye




Servicemen from the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic were captured by the Ukrainian military this morning, hours after Russia launched an invasion of the country





The crew of a Russian BMP fighting vehicle are seen face-down with jackets pulled over their heads (left) after being captured by Ukrainian forces


----------



## Murrmurr

Murrmurr said:


> I've read that Gazprom's product is poor quality. Be that as it may, it's delivered unrefined. I forget who refines it, so I'll have to look it up...but
> Do you know?


Moscow.

Sanctions against Russia have forced it to become self-sufficient (can't be said of the US). 
Self-sufficiency isn't good enough for Putin, though.


----------



## Murrmurr

@hollydolly 

_"But NATO and the US, despite deploying soldiers to neighbouring Romania in recent months, have *made it clear that no troops will be sent* and left the Ukrainian military to hold off the assault alone._"

This "promise" is rarely kept. Neither NATO nor the US and allies will show their cards in advance. Ukraine has been supplied with heavy military equipment and weapons and more is on it's way.

_"Few expect Ukraine to emerge victorious from what is *almost certain to be a prolonged, bloody, and vicious war* - but so far, Kiev's forces have managed to inflict heavy losses on Putin's troops."_

I'm a bit more optimistic. I've seen some really angry Ukrainians over the past few days. I'm more concerned with what happens in the South China Sea over the coming months. Fingers crossed we have intel on the recent meeting between Putin and Xi.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> @hollydolly
> 
> _"But NATO and the US, despite deploying soldiers to neighbouring Romania in recent months, have *made it clear that no troops will be sent* and left the Ukrainian military to hold off the assault alone._"
> 
> This "promise" is rarely kept. Neither NATO nor the US and allies will show their cards in advance. Ukraine has been supplied with heavy military equipment and weapons and more is on it's way.
> 
> _"Few expect Ukraine to emerge victorious from what is *almost certain to be a prolonged, bloody, and vicious war* - but so far, Kiev's forces have managed to inflict heavy losses on Putin's troops."_
> 
> *I'm a bit more optimistic. I've seen some really angry Ukrainians over the past few days. I'm more concerned with what happens in the South China Sea over the coming months. Fingers crossed we have intel on the recent meeting between Putin and Xi.*


I agree...I'm rooting for the Ukrainians, I thing they were prepared for this and they'll fight with everything they have ..Putin is going to know he's been in a fight regardless of the outcome IMO


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Murrmurr said:


> I've read that Gazprom's product is poor quality. Be that as it may, it's delivered unrefined. I forget who refines it, so I'll have to look it up...but
> Do you know?


Are you talking about natural gas or crude?


----------



## Signe The Survivor

Sanctions coming from so many countries will definitely take its toll on Russia. Putin seems to have a one track mind at the moment, but once things start to drastically deteriorate within his own country from these sanctions from the many countries he is going to have to rethink a different strategy. When that happens we will have to wait and see.


----------



## Irwin

Ukraine should never have given up their nuclear weapons. This kind of thing doesn't happen to nuclear powers. And we signed an agreement to protect Ukraine in exchange for their non-proliferation agreement, which was called the Budapest Memorandum.

*The Budapest Memorandum* on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994 to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.​​The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances​
The only mechanism we have at our disposal it seems is to hurt Russia financially. We can put a block external transactions with their state owned banks and put heavy sanctions and embargoes on trade with Russia. We can bring their economy to its knees if we have the will to do so.


----------



## officerripley

"'Wiper' Malware Discovered on Ukrainian Devices as Bank Websites Suffer Cyberattacks"; to read the rest of the article:  https://gizmodo.com/wiper-malware-d...tter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-02-24


----------



## JimBob1952

Liberty said:


> Embittered man, Putin is.  Nostalgically seeking the former glory days of the KGB/USSR.
> This says it all as far as the economy of today's Russia:
> 
> View attachment 209837



Texas, unfortunately, doesn't have tanks, nuclear weapons or its own army.  (The Texas Rangers notwithstanding).  Putin will cause quite a bit of trouble until the West gets its act together and figures out a way to stand up to him.


----------



## Pepper

JimBob1952 said:


> Texas, unfortunately, doesn't have tanks, nuclear weapons or its own army.


I must take exception to the word unfortunately.


----------



## JimBob1952

Pepper said:


> I must take exception to the word unfortunately.



Exception noted.  I don't want an armed Texas either, just pointing out that economic comparisons can be misleading.  It doesn't matter if you have a low GDP per capita if you have a bigger army than the country you are invading. (Although Ukraine is remarkably poor as well).


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> Are you talking about natural gas or crude?


I found what I was looking for.

Thanks, Harry


----------



## Murrmurr

Irwin said:


> Ukraine should never have given up their nuclear weapons. This kind of thing doesn't happen to nuclear powers. And we signed an agreement to protect Ukraine in exchange for their non-proliferation agreement, which was called the Budapest Memorandum.
> ​
> *The only mechanism we have at our disposal it seems is to hurt Russia financially.* We can put a block external transactions with their state owned banks and put heavy sanctions and embargoes on trade with Russia. We can bring their economy to its knees if we have the will to do so.


Except that agreements like the Budapest Memorandum go out the window when nation(s) involved violate the agreement. We use sanctions first to abide by our own rules of engagement and the Geneva Convention, but we have a green light if Russia commits a major violation (or we accuse them of it). Whether or not we Go remains to be seen. I imagine the Pentagon is weighing the costs (not in terms of dollars).


----------



## Alligatorob

Irwin said:


> *The Budapest Memorandum* on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994 to provide security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances


You make a good point.  Not sure I have seen anything about this in the media, not sure why... It looks important.


----------



## Warrigal

More live updates on the Ukriane invasion

Key events​
11m ago Gunfire heard near government quarter of Kyiv
17m ago Commander of the Territorial Defense Forces says no age limit to join armed force
1h ago Ukrainian government says today will be the 'hardest day'
4h ago 'Horrific' strikes in Kyiv says Ukraine's Foreign Affairs Minister
6h ago Ukraine's defences shot down Russian aircraft over Kyiv: Interior Ministry adviser
6h ago Explosions are being heard and felt in Kyiv
7h ago Ukrainian President vows to stay in Kyiv
8h ago Australia to impose further sanctions on Russia
9h ago Zelenskyy says Ukrainian death toll now stands at 137
10h ago Zelenskyy orders full military mobilisation to counter Russia
12h ago EU agrees to new round of Russia sanctions
13h ago Ukraine says 57 people killed on first day of Russian invasion
14h ago 'Putin is the aggressor': Biden imposes 'strong' sanctions on Russia
14h ago Officials say Ukraine no longer in control of Chernobyl site
From this ABC (Australia) website  Russia-Ukraine war live updates: Gunfire heard near government quarter of Ukrainian capital as Russian forces close in - ABC News


----------



## Furryanimal

Zelensky has said he is ready to talk,including of Ukraine being neutral.
The Kremlin has said they are ready to talk too.
So let us hope they agree to a ceasefire and damn well talk.
And don’t stop talking until a peace treaty is signed.
This has to stop.


----------



## Furryanimal

*Sunday*
Russia's readiness to speak without any preconditions, ultimatums, and demands is already a victory for Ukraine.
"So I think that the fact that Russia is ready to speak without any preconditions, without any ultimatums, demands towards Ukraine, is already a victory for Ukraine," Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba said at a briefing, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.
Kuleba noted that a few days ago, at the beginning of the war, Russia was not interested in any negotiations at all, but having suffered losses it realized that its plan was not being successful, the blitzkrieg failed, and Russia began to speak in ultimatums.
"As long as Russia continues to suffer, as long as the Russian army experience one defeat after the other, Russia's conditions and ultimatums abated. Now they give us a signal that they just want to talk," the minister said.
Following a conversation between President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky and Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko, it was agreed that the Ukrainian delegation would meet with Russia without any preconditions on Ukraine-Belarus border near the Prypyat River.

According to the press service of the Office of the President of Ukraine, Lukashenko took responsibility for the fact that "for the time of travel, negotiations, and return of the Ukrainian delegation, all aircraft, helicopters, and missiles stationed on Belarusian territory will remain on the ground


----------



## Pepper

I hope it's not a trap.


----------



## Furryanimal

Pepper said:


> I hope it's not a trap.


Yeah....but I’m sure Zelensky won’t be in the delegation.


----------



## Furryanimal

Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine
✔
The Ukrainian delegation arrived in the area of the Ukrainian-Belarusian border to participate in negotiations with representatives of the Russian Federation.

The delegation included David Arahamiya, Servant of the People faction, Oleksiy Reznikov, Minister of Defense of Ukraine, Mykhailo Podoliak, Adviser to the Head of the Presidential Office, Andriy Kostin, First Deputy Head of the Ukrainian Delegation to the Tripartite Contact Group, Rustem Umerov, MP, and Mykola Tochytsky.

The key issue of the talks is an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of troops from Ukraine.
t.me/verkhovnaradaukrainy
/ 6571
529.8Kviews
Feb 28 at 08:27


----------



## Furryanimal

By Adam Smith

I saw this little girl in Kyiv. It was a few weeks ago, I think. Possibly longer. But I remember her.

So distinctive. Her eyes and her hair as bright as her hopes and dreams for the future. A future that would never come; and one denied to her by Russia’s so-called war to “free” Ukraine.

Perhaps if you live in Kyiv you’ve seen her too?

Close your eyes and just think for a moment. Chances are you will have walked past or glanced upon other children and ordinary people who are now the lost lights of Ukraine.

This little girl’s name was Polina and she attended 4th grade at School No. 24 in Kyiv. To me she’s now the equivalent of “the girl in the red coat” – a 1993 movie reference that many will immediately understand.

According to Kyiv’s local authority, Polina and her parents were shot dead on Feb. 26 by a Russian sabotage and reconnaissance group on a street in the north-west of the capital. She was with her family when their car came under fire.

Polina’s brother and sister were taken to hospital.

Sadly, many people who ought to have seen Polina have not.

That includes every Russian citizen who doesn’t hear the truth; every Russian police officer; every member of Vladimir Putin’s inner circle; and every Russian soldier fighting on the streets of Ukraine to supposedly “liberate” the country. From what? From whom?

Videos (admittedly unverified) have been circulating of captured and confused Russian soldiers on their cell phones talking to their commanders saying “we didn’t find any neo-nazis” and that they just want to go home. Understandable. Does Polina look like a neo-nazi to you?

Some of those Russian troops are supposedly becoming increasingly disoriented by this barbaric war, because – truth be told – they don’t know why they’re fighting it. And this is one reason among many that things are going Ukraine’s way and why Russian President Vladimir Putin is reported to be fuming in his lair.

The Kyiv authorities should project images of Kyiv’s lost children into the night sky across the city.

Let their eyes gaze down on the columns of Russian war machines and confront every attacking soldier with the cowardice and inhumanity of the cause they serve.

Let these soldiers question what they’re fighting for and in whose name. Let it slow them and further disorientate them.

In Polina’s name – Glory to Ukraine
Adam Smith Kyiv Post


----------



## hollydolly

Apologies, I posted this in the Sweden/Finland thread..should have gone here 


_Putin's 'propagandist-in-chief' has threatened the West with nuclear destruction just hours after the Russian leader put his deterrent forces on 'alert'.

Speaking on nation-wide TV amid a frenzy of anti-Western rhetoric, TV anchor Dmitry Kiselyov told viewers: 'Our submarines can shoot more than 500 nuclear warheads.

'This would guarantee destruction of the USA, and all other NATO countries.

In accordance with the principle "Why do we need the world, if Russia isn't there?"

'Russia's nuclear arms are delivered by the world's fastest strategic bombers.

'That's without even mentioning Russian Strategic Missile Forces. The Russian nuclear potential is the strongest in the world.

'Today our Russian Nuclear Triad is on the high alert. Putin did warn [the West]. Do not try to scare Russia.'

Watch that terrifying Video here...
_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...chief-threatens-West-nuclear-destruction.html


----------



## Liberty

JimBob1952 said:


> Texas, unfortunately, doesn't have tanks, nuclear weapons or its own army.  (The Texas Rangers notwithstanding).  Putin will cause quite a bit of trouble until the West gets its act together and figures out a way to stand up to him.


You got to be careful how you deal with a crazy man with his finger on the nuke.  All that's left of Russia is a big gas station and nukes.  Just think though, if he wants to use them on Ukraine he'll blow himself out of the world.  By the way, Texas has lots of "ammo"...lol.


----------



## Liberty

By the way, we do have "tanks" in Texas...want to come take a ride and blast some big rocks apart?

https://www.oxhuntingranch.com/activities/hunting-shooting/tank-driving/


----------



## Paco Dennis

Here is a current video news report from Asia, guest is Polish diplomat/official. My take way: It remains very unpredictable...even the nuclear threat. This guy thinks Putin read to many old books during the pandemic, and is a little "nuts" now.


----------



## Furryanimal

The Ukrainian delegation has demanded at its talks with Russia in Belarus that Russia withdraw all its troops from Ukraine, including from Crimea and certain districts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
Oleksiy Arestovych, a freelance adviser to the head of the Ukrainian President's Office, announced this on the Current Time TV channel, according to an Ukrinform correspondent.
"Our conditions are clear. We can't say specifically now, but this is a ceasefire and the withdrawal of all Russian troops. We are talking about Donbas and Crimea. All troops should leave Ukraine! We will bury everyone anyway, so it's better to leave voluntarily," he said


----------



## hollydolly

Huge explosions tonight rocked Kyiv, just hours after dozens were killed in Russian cluster bomb attacks in the eastern city of Kharkiv.  

Dramatic video filmed in the Ukrainian capital showed the moment that the night sky lit up with an enormous fire ball that reportedly stemmed from a military radar communication center. 

The new explosion took place hours after the Kremlin warned civilians to leave the city via a 'safe route' to the south-west, amid fears that the city was about to come under further heavy attack. 

Russia used similar tactics in Syrian cities while fighting alongside Basahar al-Assad before its forces heavily bombed them. 

Russian armour was working to surround Kyiv with tank manoeuvering to cut it off from the west, after attacks by advanced forces failed to penetrate the outskirts. 

Colonel General Alexander Syrsky said early today,  Monday that Kyiv had survived another night while inflicting 'heavy losses' on Russian attackers. 

Earlier, Russia had appeared to use banned cluster munitions to indiscriminately shell civilian areas in Ukraine's east that had stood up to Vladimir Putin's invasion in what would constitute a war crime. 

Kharkiv, which has witnessed some of the heaviest fighting of the war so far, was hit by rockets fired from Russian positions on Monday - with video showing a shopping centre in the Serpnia area blanketed by explosions. A military source told MailOnline that the videos showed 'cluster' munitions had been used.

'The BM-21 Grad is a multiple launch rocket system used for 'area denial', dropping cluster bombs on a concentrated area,' the expert said. 'It's mainly used on enemy troops before an offensive. Used against civilians, it's not only a war crime, but has only one purpose – to spread terror and alarm among the civilian population.' 

Graphic images and video revealed streets littered with the bodies of dead and badly wounded civilians, with other images showing showing spent BM-21 Grad rocket cartridges laying in the streets and having fallen through apartment roofs. 


This was a school....







See the  graphic pictures and videos here... 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...zens-killed-Russian-CLUSTER-BOMBS-attack.html


----------



## Don M.

It looks like more and more nations are siding with Ukraine.  Putin is rapidly becoming an "outcast" to the rest of the world.  Even Switzerland...which has a long history of "neutrality"...is supporting Ukraine.  Now, the Ukraine government is offering 5 million Rubles to Russian soldiers who lay down their arms.  That seemingly large sum of money is only about $50K, since the Ruble has fallen in value to less than a penny.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/how-the-world-punished-russia-for-invading-ukraine-192732724.html

If things keep going this way, the Russian people are going to start feeling the effects, and hopefully rebel.  On the flip side, this Russian Lunatic may go completely Nuts and press his Nuclear Button....hopefully the Russian government has protocols in place that would prevent one person from doing so.


----------



## hollydolly

_Belarusian troops have joined in the invasion of Ukraine, Kyiv claimed today, as a 40-mile Russian convoy bared down on the capital amid warnings that Putin will now use 'medieval tactics' to try and force a bloody victory after being handed a series of embarrassing defeats in the opening days of the war.

Vitaliy Kyrylov, a spokesman for Ukraine's North Territorial Defense Forces, said that Minsk's men had entered the city of Chernihiv, north-east Ukraine, on Tuesday morning. Dictator Alexander Lukashenko acknowledged sending 'rapid deployment groups' to the border 'to stop any military action against Belarus', without acknowledging that his men had joined the attack.

It came as a convoy of hundreds of Russian tanks, artillery pieces and trucks was pictured snaking its way towards Kyiv, leading to fears that its mission will be to surround the city, besiege it, and bomb it into submission as Russian forces did in Syria while fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad's forces. 



Vadym Prystaiko, Ukraine's ambassador to the UK, said Russian forces may also try to spark a food crisis by cutting off supplies to major cities as pictures showed some store shelves already running empty in the capital. He said the military may have to step in to ensure everyone has access to food.











NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg today said Putin had 'shattered peace in Europe' with an invasion 'enabled by Belarus' while vowing to support Kyiv and defend 'every inch' of allied territory should the Russian strongman's sights wander outside Ukraine's borders.

But, speaking during a visit to the Lask airbase in NATO member Poland, Mr Stoltenberg repeated that the alliance is 'defensive' and that no troops will be sent to assist Ukraine. 'NATO is not going to be part of the conflict,' he said.

Russia already appeared to be employing siege tactics elsewhere in Ukraine today as the city of  Mariupol, in the south, came under 'constant shelling' by Russian forces using artillery, Grad rockets, and fighter jets targeting civilians areas such as schools and homes which had left many dead, including women and children. 

Power to the city, which is in danger of being surrounded by Russian forces, has been cut - region head Pavlo Kyrylenko said Tuesday - but it remains under Ukrainian control.




_
There are fears the purpose of the convoy (pictured) is to surround Kyiv, besiege it and bomb it into submission - mirroring tactics Russia used in Syria while fighting alongside the forces of Basahar al-Assad

More pics and Videos here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nds-Kyiv-Russia-resorts-medieval-tactics.html


----------



## Furryanimal

President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has addressed the European Parliament.
Thank you very much! Ladies and gentlemen, you know, in recent days I don’t know how to greet anyone. Because I can't say "Good morning," or "Good afternoon," or "Good evening." I can't, and this is absolutely true because every day, that day is definitely not good for some, that evening is the last one for some, every day. I’m talking today, now, about my citizens of Ukraine, who are defending our walls and freedom at the cost of their lives.
I’m very glad that what I saw here is this unifying mood. I’m glad that we have united all of you today – the EU countries, but I didn’t know that it would be at such a price. And this is a tragedy for me, a tragedy for every Ukrainian, a tragedy for every state.
You know, I don’t speak from, I don’t read from papers because the papers are gone from my country’s life. All of this is real, including these dead bodies, this is real life. And you know, I believe that today we sacrifice for values, for rights, for freedom, just for our desire to be close, just like you, like everyone else, we sacrifice our best people: the strongest, mightiest, most extraordinary Ukrainians.
And we very often like to say that we will all win, and I’m very glad that you are not only talking about it, but also seeing it. And we will all win for sure, I'm positive. There is such an expression: "Ukraine is choosing Europe." That’s what we’ve been aspiring to, what we’ve been going, and still going toward. And I would very much to hear from you something addressed to us: "Now it’s Europe choosing Ukraine."
I have a couple of minutes to talk to you because there are small strikes and missile attacks. This morning was tragic to all of us. Two cruise missiles hit Kharkiv. The city, which is near the border with Russia, where there have always been a lot of Russians and they have always been friends, there used to be very warm relations, there are more than 20 universities there, it was and is the hub hosting the largest number of universities in our country. The youths there are bright, smart, always gathering for all holidays in our country’s largest square. Freedom Square. Also, this is the largest square in Europe. And this is true, it’s Freedom Square. Imagine this: in the morning, two cruise missiles hit Freedom Square. Dozens of casualties. So this is the price of freedom.
We are simply fighting for our land and our freedom, and believe me, despite the fact that all the big cities of our state are now under blockade, no one will penetrate our freedom and state. Believe me. Every square today, whatever it is called, will be referred to as Freedom Square. In every city of our state. Nobody will break us, we stand strong, we are Ukrainians.
We want our children to live on. It seems to me that this is fair. Yesterday, 16 children died. And again, President Putin will say that this is some kind of an “operation,” and that they are bombing only our military infrastructure. Where are our children? At what military plants do they work? Which rockets do they operate? Maybe they drive our tanks? You killed 16 children!
We have very motivated people, very much. We are fighting for our rights – freedom and life. And now we are fighting for survival, and this is our main motivation, but we are also fighting to be equal members of Europe. And I think today we are all showing that we are. With us on board, the EU will definitely be stronger. Without you, Ukraine will be lonely. We have proven our strength, that we are at least the same as you. Prove that you’re with us. Prove that you are not giving up on us, prove that you’re truly Europeans, and then life will beat death, and light will beat darkness.
Glory to Ukraine!


----------



## Jackie23

Heartbreaking!


----------



## hollydolly

_Russia has been slammed as 'barbaric' for bombing the Babyn Yar holocaust memorial in Kyiv on the site of one of the biggest single massacres of Jews during the Holocaust.

Explosions erupted around the capital's 1,300ft TV tower this afternoon, built by the ravine where nearly 34,000 Jews were killed in two days in 1941 during Adolf Hitler's campaign against the Soviet Union.

At least two large blasts were seen near the foot of the tower, around three miles from central Kyiv, around 5.30pm local time. The first missile struck the TV tower but the second hit the memorial. 

At least five people were killed in the latest onslaught which came just hours after Russia told civilians to evacuate because it was about to begin bombarding 'strategic' targets. 

It was not immediately clear whether the tower had been the target of the strikes, or whether they had been targeting nearby buildings. The tower remained standing, but several state broadcasts went off air.

After the latest attack, Volodymyr Zelensky tweeted: 'To the world: what is the point of saying "never again" for 80 years, if the world stays silent when a bomb drops on the same site of Babyn Yar? At least 5 killed. History repeating…'

Meanwhile the Ukrainian foreign ministry said: 'Russian troops fired on the TV tower, near the Memorial complex #BabynYar. Russian criminals do not stop at anything in their barbarism. Russia = barbarian.' 

It came shortly after Moscow's ministry of defence said it would be launching strikes into the city targeting Ukraine's security service and intelligence agencies with what it called  'precision munitions'.

That raised fears that Kyiv was about to come under heavy bombardment after the cities of  Kharkiv, Mariupol and Kherson were hit by indiscriminate shelling earlier in the day.

A column of Russian artillery units and tanks 40 miles long has been pictured snaking its way towards Kyiv as analysts warned it will likely be tasked with surrounding the city, besieging it and bombing it into submission as Putin resorts to 'medieval' tactics in an attempt to force victory.







_
Smoke and flames rise up the side of Kyiv's 1,300ft TV tower after Russia bombed it on Tuesday. The tower remained standing but buildings around it were damaged, with some broadcasts knocked off air
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tells-civilians-evacuate-Kyiv-airstrikes.html


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Furryanimal

Cardiff Bay.I would have attended this if I had known about it.


----------



## Furryanimal

"It's a disaster": Moscow deputies called on Putin to end the war
The Council of Deputies of the Gagarinsky Municipal District in Moscow condemned the hostilities on the territory of Ukraine and called on Vladimir Putin to withdraw troops immediately.

In a letter to the Russian president, deputies called the invasion of Ukraine a catastrophe.

"This is a way to degrade and impoverish the country. No other action could cause greater damage to Russia's economy," the statement said.

Earlier, the Council of Deputies of the Khamovniki district of Moscow also made an anti-war statement


----------



## Warrigal

Can you supply a link, @Furryanimal?


----------



## hollydolly

_Russian soldiers taking part in the invasion of Ukraine are in 'complete disarray', according to voice recordings obtained by a British intelligence company. 

The intercepted radio messages indicate that troops are refusing to obey central command orders to shell Ukrainian towns and are complaining about running out of supplies of food and fuel.

The recordings are among around 24 hours of material obtained by intelligence firm ShadowBreak since the invasion of Ukraine began last week. 

In one of the eavesdropped conversations, listened to by The Telegraph, a soldier reportedly sounds as though he is crying. 

In another, a soldier is heard losing his temper when asking when food or fuel will arrive. He says: 'We've been here for three days! When the hell is it going to be ready?'

A third message reveals a tense exchange in which the same soldier has to remind a colleague speaking from a command centre that they cannot use artillery on an area until civilians - who are labelled 'the goods' - have left. 

ShadowBreak's founder Samuel Cardillo, 26, told The Telegraph he had been sent the messages by amateurs listening in with antennas.  

He said: 'What we have found is that the Russian operatives are operating in complete disarray.

'They have no clue where they are going and how to really communicate with each other properly.' 

He added: 'There were periods where we heard them [Russian soldiers] crying in combat, a period where they were insulting each other – obviously not a sign of great morale.'

Mr Cardillo said the some of the messages were also 'proof of war crimes' because they revealed ordered to fire missiles into urban areas. 

Other video recordings are said to show Russian soldiers retreating back into Russia after becoming frustrated, whilst a text message sent by a soldier to his mother is alleged to have said: 'The only thing I want right now is to kill myself.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-overheard-complaining-Ukraine-invasion.html_


----------



## Furryanimal

Warrigal said:


> Can you supply a link, @Furryanimal?


That came via the Kyiv Independent which linked to a BBC site that I ran through google translate

https://www.bbc.com/russian/live/news-60570934?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=621eb2b9980bea49f4b7aad9&"Это катастрофа": московские депутаты призвали Путина прекратить войну&2022-03-02T00:06:52.445Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:dc21ce6b-5495-498c-a854-6f3cfa3c3fce&pinned_post_asset_id=621eb2b9980bea49f4b7aad9&pinned_post_type=share


----------



## Furryanimal

Kyiv Independent...
This is the plan....

Fugitive President Viktor Yanukovych is currently in Minsk, and the Kremlin is currently preparing him for a special operation, according to Ukrainian intelligence.
Source: UE interlocutor in Ukrainian intelligence
Details: It is noted that according to one of the scenarios, they will try to declare him "President of Ukraine" there.
The information obtained indicates that the Kremlin may be preparing an information operation or action to return President Yanukovych to Ukraine or to publish an appeal on his behalf to the Ukrainian people in the near future.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/03/2/7327392/


----------



## Warrigal

Furryanimal said:


> That came via the Kyiv Independent which linked to a BBC site that I ran through google translate
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/russian/live/news-60570934?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=621eb2b9980bea49f4b7aad9&"Это катастрофа": московские депутаты призвали Путина прекратить войну&2022-03-02T00:06:52.445Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:dc21ce6b-5495-498c-a854-6f3cfa3c3fce&pinned_post_asset_id=621eb2b9980bea49f4b7aad9&pinned_post_type=share


Excellent link. Thank you.


----------



## hollydolly

A haunting video shows a Russian mother trying to explain to her tearful daughter why they have been detained by armed police for opposing Vladimir Putin’s war.

They went to put flowers at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow, and the children handed in ‘No to War’ posters they had drawn. But the mothers and children were all detained.

Sociologist Alexandra Arkhipova told of her horror when mothers Ekaterina Zavizion and Olga Alter and their children Sofya Gladkova, seven, Liza Gladkova, 11, Gosha Petrov, 11, Matvey Petrov, nine and David Petrov, seven, were held by Russian officers.

'All of them were detained by the police,' she said.






https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...calm-little-girl-women-children-arrested.html


----------



## Paco Dennis

Chris Hedges On Ukraine, Russia & NATO​


----------



## RadishRose

Yanukovych is a commie who fled Ukraine to Russia in 2014. He'd be insane to go back.


----------



## Murrmurr

Furryanimal said:


> Kyiv Independent...
> This is the plan....
> 
> Fugitive President Viktor Yanukovych is currently in Minsk, and the Kremlin is currently preparing him for a special operation, according to Ukrainian intelligence.
> Source: UE interlocutor in Ukrainian intelligence
> Details: It is noted that according to one of the scenarios, they will try to declare him "President of Ukraine" there.
> The information obtained indicates that the Kremlin may be preparing an information operation or action to return President Yanukovych to Ukraine or to publish an appeal on his behalf to the Ukrainian people in the near future.
> 
> https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/03/2/7327392/


Yanukovych would never win the hearts of the Ukrainian people. That would be disastrous. First thing he'd do is create laws to silence and shackle the people; he knows they hate him or at least distrust him completely.


----------



## David777

Thanks for that live blog stream @Paco Dennis

As someone just coming to understand what has been going on, pretty much in line with the several posts I've already made in the Ukraine threads.  Of course there is more to this than just the weapons warmongers and their political allies. The horror is the whole human race faces extinction by provoking Russia with its warmongering leader with 6000 nukes.  Neutrality is a small pragmatic choice versus the abomination of death and destruction to those ordinary Ukraine people caught in the middle. Read my posts for deeper information.  Of course the same games played out when I came of age after the staged false Gulf of Tonkin provocation that led to the Viet Nam War that ruined my own young life.  And the same game keeps playing out in each new generation.

Something one won't read on news sites is it is not just NATO, The West, and Russia we need to worry about regarding nukes with heightened war levels as now.  A rogue country like Iran, North Korea, and others, or some maniac terrorist that has a small portable nuclear weapon might have already smuggled such into large cities, London, Moscow, New York, Paris, whereve, that some psychopath could blow up just to start WWWIII they would then clean up with just like in James Bond movies.  It is ridiculously easy to smuggle large items into shipping containers in our ocean ports, few of which are actually checked.


----------



## Murrmurr

Liberty said:


> You got to be careful how you deal with a crazy man with his finger on the nuke.  All that's left of Russia is a big gas station and nukes.  *Just think though, if he wants to use them on Ukraine he'll blow himself out of the world.*  By the way, Texas has lots of "ammo"...lol.


This is why I believe Putin is totally bluffing. He knows exactly what the west's nuke capabilities are, and probably where they are. If he "pressed the button" nukes would immediately rain on Russia, he knows this.

The west doesn't want the cost and to have to cleanup afterward, or any finger-pointing either, but I think Putin knows the west is willing to deal with all that if it has to.


----------



## ElCastor

Why does the US continue to buy more than 200,000 barrels of oil a day from Russia?


----------



## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Why does the US continue to buy more than 200,000 barrels of oil a day from Russia?


The U.S. did import 206,000 barrels of crude oil per day from Russia in October 2021, but that's less than 10% of what the U.S. imports. Russia is not the US's biggest supplier. Actually, the US produces the most crude oil in the world. So when they put an imbargo on Russian oil, while it does raise the price of gas it's no big deal otherwise.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> Why does the US continue to buy more than 200,000 barrels of oil a day from Russia?


It was 634K bpd in October; 595K bpd in November; 405K bpd in December. Per EIA. 

As to the why, it should be understood there are over 170 types of crude in the world. Refiners "blend" various types to achieve optimal operating conditions to maintain product output. An example would be that MARS (Gulf of Mexico), which is an intermediate sour, is sometimes mixed with URALS (Russia), Light and Medium Sour for usage in Gulf Coast refineries. Sour refers to sulfur content and intermediate is similar in viscosity to maple syrup with light as thinner and heavy as thicker. That is the very short over simplified version. 

There are several types of crude oil from Russia.  None of this information is intended to excuse using Russian oil. Everything comes with a cost, which I am ready to pay, but I doubt others are.


----------



## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> The U.S. did import 206,000 barrels of crude oil per day from Russia in October 2021, but that's less than 10% of what the U.S. imports. Russia is not the US's biggest supplier. Actually, the US produces the most crude oil in the world. So when they put an imbargo on Russian oil, while it does raise the price of gas it's no big deal otherwise.


Not sure I understand -- "when they put an embargo on Russian oil"? What embargo is that, and who are "they"? 206,000 barrels a day at $108 a barrel is $22,248,000 or more than $8 billion a year. Considering what's going on in Ukraine that seems like a lot.


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> It was 634K bpd in October; 595K bpd in November; 405K bpd in December. Per EIA.
> 
> As to the why, it should be understood there are over 170 types of crude in the world. Refiners "blend" various types to achieve optimal operating conditions to maintain product output. An example would be that MARS (Gulf of Mexico), which is an intermediate sour, is sometimes mixed with URALS (Russia), Light and Medium Sour for usage in Gulf Coast refineries. Sour refers to sulfur content and intermediate is similar in viscosity to maple syrup with light as thinner and heavy as thicker. That is the very short over simplified version.
> 
> There are several types of crude oil from Russia.  None of this information is intended to excuse using Russian oil. Everything comes with a cost, which I am ready to pay, but I doubt others are.


I don't mind paying for it, but I do mind paying Russia for it. I would like to avoid politics but it does seem that until recently we were a net oil exporter.


----------



## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Not sure I understand -- "when they put an embargo on Russian oil"? What embargo is that, and* who are "they"?* 206,000 barrels a day at $108 a barrel is $22,248,000 or more than $8 billion a year. Considering what's going on in Ukraine that seems like a lot.


US, NATO, EU. Sanctions and embargoes are being discussed. Many of the sanctions have been implemented, others are imminent. 

Producers in the Middle-East wouldn't say no to that $22,248,000, or the US can simply increase prices to make up the $8 billion a year loss and even endure some temporary shortages.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> but it does seem that until recently we were a net oil exporter.


This is mostly an illusion, buried in political rhetoric. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WTTNTUS2&f=W
The week ending of November 30th 2018, saw the first net export week since records starting in 1991. That was followed by 10 weeks in 2019. Both years were net imports. 2020 brought covid and we finally and barely achieved net exports, not because of consumer demand, but lack thereof. 2021 saw us become a net importer once again.


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> This is mostly an illusion, buried in political rhetoric. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WTTNTUS2&f=W
> The week ending of November 30th 2018, saw the first net export week since records starting in 1991. That was followed by 10 weeks in 2019. Both years were net imports. 2020 brought covid and we finally and barely achieved net exports, not because of consumer demand, but lack thereof. 2021 saw us become a net importer once again.


Hmmm. The following seems pretty clear. Same EIA.GOV web site:
In plain English ...
"The United States was a net total energy exporter in 2019 and 2020"​https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/imports-and-exports.php


----------



## ElCastor

Murrmurr said:


> US, NATO, EU. Sanctions and embargoes are being discussed. Many of the sanctions have been implemented, others are imminent.
> 
> Producers in the Middle-East wouldn't say no to that $22,248,000, or the US can simply increase prices to make up the $8 billion a year loss and even endure some temporary shortages.


Too bad we can't just buy it from Canada instead of Putin. I think the Canadians would like that, and I know the Ukrainians would. (-8


----------



## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Too bad we can't just buy it from Canada instead of Putin. I think the Canadians would like that, and I know the Ukrainians would. (-8


Good idea. The US already gets more than half its imported oil from Canada, even without the Keystone Pipeline. I don't know what Canada's annual yield is. I wonder if they _could_ sell us more?

Not that any of that is up to me...just wondering.


----------



## Murrmurr

ElCastor said:


> Too bad we can't just buy it from Canada instead of Putin. I think the Canadians would like that, and I know the Ukrainians would. (-8


Do you know if Canada exports oil to Russia? China?
(I can look it up)

edit: Canada _imports_ oil from Russia.


----------



## hollydolly

_The first major city in Ukraine has fallen to the Russians, the mayor confirmed on Wednesday, urging his residents on Facebook to obey 'armed people who came to the city's administration'.

Kherson, home to 290,000 people, is 300 miles south of Kyiv. Kyiv was also coming under attack in the early hours of Thursday, with a bright explosion booming across the city around 2am. 

The port city of Odessa, 125 miles west of Kherson, was also bracing for an attack after Vladimir Putin's warships were seen leaving Crimea on Wednesday night. U.S. officials told Fox News they expected Odessa could be attacked as soon as Thursday.
Kherson, like Odessa, is strategically important - sitting on an inlet of the Black Sea, 260 miles west of the separatist enclave of Donetsk.

Ihor Kolykhaiev, mayor of Kherson, earlier on Wednesday insisted the city remained under Ukrainian control, but it has now fallen. 

Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, issued a video address to the nation in the early hours of Thursday, giving an upbeat assessment of the war and calling on Ukrainians to keep up the resistance.

'We are a people who in a week have destroyed the plans of the enemy,' he said, in the clip posted on social media. 

'They will have no peace here. They will have no food. They will have here not one quiet moment.'

Zelensky did not comment on whether the Russians have seized several cities, including Kherson.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ls-people-follow-orders-Russian-soldiers.html_


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> _The first major city in Ukraine has fallen to the Russians, the mayor confirmed on Wednesday, urging his residents on Facebook to obey 'armed people who came to the city's administration'.
> 
> Kherson, home to 290,000 people, is 300 miles south of Kyiv. Kyiv was also coming under attack in the early hours of Thursday, with a bright explosion booming across the city around 2am. _
> 
> ...
> 
> _'We are a people who in a week have destroyed the plans of the enemy,' he said, in the clip posted on social media.
> 
> 'They will have no peace here. They will have no food. They will have here not one quiet moment.'
> 
> Zelensky did not comment on whether the Russians have seized several cities, including Kherson.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ls-people-follow-orders-Russian-soldiers.html_


I think most everyone knew this would happen eventually. The ball is pretty much in Putin's court, now we'll see what he does with it. He could muck about for a year or two before anything definitive happens. Or he might just say job done, and go home, who knows anymore with this guy.

Whatever the case, we know China's watching closely.


----------



## Furryanimal

Jerusalem Post
Russia confronts Finland, Sweden as invasion of Ukraine enters 8th day
Air raid sirens blared throughout Ukraine overnight * At least eight Ukrainians were killed in Russian strikes overnight
By TZVI JOFFRE, REUTERS Published: MARCH 3, 2022 08:21  


Russia sent letters to Finland and Sweden demanding that they provide security guarantees, according to the Echo of Moscow radio station, as the Nordic countries expressed interest in joining NATO and Russia's invasion of Ukraine entered its eighth day.
The liberal aligned "Echo of Moscow" radio station was taken off the air by Russian authorities on Tuesday.
The Russian demands come after surveys in both Finland and Sweden showed rising public support for joining NATO and two citizens' initiatives calling on the Finnish government to hold a referendum on the matter or to join the alliance without a referendum reached the number of signatures needed to require parliament to discuss them.
The latest initiative stated that Finland must join NATO in order to fulfill its constitutional obligation to safeguard human rights.
Four Russian fighter jets violated Swedish airspace on Wednesday, with Sweden's Air Force commander calling the act "unprofessional and irresponsible."

On Friday, Russia warned neighboring Finland of "serious military and political" repercussions if the Scandinavian nation opts to join NATO following the invasion of Ukraine.


----------



## hollydolly

Furryanimal said:


> Jerusalem Post
> Russia confronts Finland, Sweden as invasion of Ukraine enters 8th day
> Air raid sirens blared throughout Ukraine overnight * At least eight Ukrainians were killed in Russian strikes overnight
> By TZVI JOFFRE, REUTERS Published: MARCH 3, 2022 08:21
> 
> 
> Russia sent letters to Finland and Sweden demanding that they provide security guarantees, according to the Echo of Moscow radio station, as the Nordic countries expressed interest in joining NATO and Russia's invasion of Ukraine entered its eighth day.
> The liberal aligned "Echo of Moscow" radio station was taken off the air by Russian authorities on Tuesday.
> The Russian demands come after surveys in both Finland and Sweden showed rising public support for joining NATO and two citizens' initiatives calling on the Finnish government to hold a referendum on the matter or to join the alliance without a referendum reached the number of signatures needed to require parliament to discuss them.
> The latest initiative stated that Finland must join NATO in order to fulfill its constitutional obligation to safeguard human rights.
> Four Russian fighter jets violated Swedish airspace on Wednesday, with Sweden's Air Force commander calling the act "unprofessional and irresponsible."
> 
> On Friday, Russia warned neighboring Finland of "serious military and political" repercussions if the Scandinavian nation opts to join NATO following the invasion of Ukraine.


yes I posted some days ago about the Russians demanding the Swedish and Finish get into line with regard not joining Nato.. or suffer the same consequences as Ukraine.. ...I am waiting with bated breath to see what both countries are going to do...


----------



## Furryanimal

Kyiv Independent

12:49

Ukraine, Russia to hold new round of peace talks. According to Vladimir Medinsky, assistant to Russian President Vladimir Putin, the second round of negotiations will take place on March 3, in Belarusian Brest Oblast, which is close to the Polish border.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> Hmmm. The following seems pretty clear. Same EIA.GOV web site:
> In plain English ...
> "The United States was a net total energy exporter in 2019 and 2020"​https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/imports-and-exports.php


You're right, it is pretty clear and in plain English. It clearly and in plain English converts all forms of primary energy (*including coal*) to BTUs for energy comparison.

Total U.S. annual _primary energy_ net imports...
What is primary energy... https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Primary energy

So are we discussing oil imports/exports or total primary energy imports/exports?


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> You're right, it is pretty clear and in plain English. It clearly and in plain English converts all forms of primary energy (*including coal*) to BTUs for energy comparison.
> 
> Total U.S. annual _primary energy_ net imports...
> What is primary energy... https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Primary energy
> 
> So are we discussing oil imports/exports or total primary energy imports/exports?


OK, in all fairness it seems we are discussing petroleum as well as crude oil ...
Beginning in 2019 ...
"Not only did the United States reach a record-breaking 12.8 million barrels per day (bpd) of oil production in November – a new high watermark for the industry – the country achieved something yet more impressive: in the month of September, the United States exported more petroleum products than it imported. If verified in survey-collected monthly data, it would be the first time (in a month-long period) that the United States sold more petroleum than it purchased abroad since EIA records began in 1949."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielc...rts-in-september-and-october/?sh=b66a9985f3b3

And continuing through 2020 ...
"The United States became a net annual petroleum exporter in 2020                       
In 2020, the United States exported about 8.51 MMb/d and imported about 7.86 MMb/d of petroleum1, making the United States a net annual petroleum exporter for the first time since at least 1949."

Bottom line, we both know this discussion is not about 2019/20, it's about now and our purchase of Russian oil -- a purchase in which it seems fair to assume that our billions are aiding Putin in the destruction of Ukraine.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> Bottom line, we both know this discussion is not about 2019/20, it's about now and our purchase of Russian oil -- a purchase in which it seems fair to assume that our billions are aiding Putin in the destruction of Ukraine.


No it started with a statement that indicated a belief the USA had been a net exporter until recently. (Note: the U.S. production peaked the week ending 2-28-2020 at 13.1 MBPD ... https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WCRFPUS2&f=W

As for the purchase of oil from Russia, it will impact you more than I, as most of the imports end up on the West Coast. Granted there would be an impact across the board, but again... more likely the West Coast bearing the brunt. 

We could and should halt Russian imports, but where would the makeup come from, considering our crude inventories are woefully low, near 7 year lows and Cushing at 3.5 year low. Please don't say drill baby drill. Drillers will drill, when it becomes profitable to do so. If you can sell oil for $100 a barrel, why would anyone spend millions on drilling to sell oil for $50 a barrel? Especially when we keep hearing how oil will become a thing of the past.  Driller's are taking their money and running... for the most part.

Besides, a good portion would likely end up being exported. We currently export 3 MBPD, when in 2014, we merely exported >300KBPD. Oddly we export more gasoline per day, than we import Crude from Russia. But we also export more gasoline than we import gasoline. It's a weird world.


----------



## hollydolly

I did a double take when I read this... what's going on now. ?.. why start on the USA ..?...Russia's foreign minister said today, as he compared the US to Nazi Germany ''
quote:

_'Napoleon and Hitler had the objective to have the whole of Europe under their control, now Americans have got Europe under their control.

'We see that the situation what role the EU is really playing in the context of the global situation, they are just fulfiling a role.

'We see that there's a picture like in Hollywood of absolute evil and absolute good and this is unfortunate. 
_
read more  here, and see the video...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...repeats-warning-WW3-nuclear-likens-NAZIS.html


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

hollydolly said:


> I did a double take when I read this... what's going on now. ?.. why start on the USA ..?...Russia's foreign minister said today, as he compared the US to Nazi Germany ''
> quote:
> 
> _'Napoleon and Hitler had the objective to have the whole of Europe under their control, now Americans have got Europe under their control.
> 
> 'We see that the situation what role the EU is really playing in the context of the global situation, they are just fulfiling a role.
> 
> 'We see that there's a picture like in Hollywood of absolute evil and absolute good and this is unfortunate. _
> 
> read more  here, and see the video...
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...repeats-warning-WW3-nuclear-likens-NAZIS.html


I probably watch too much France24, Deutsche Welle, etc. The past week has seen a considerable amount of time being spent on the great "re-think". From my perspective, this is long overdue. However, the past couple of days has seen these nations' "leftist" thinking ease into the conversation, with these groups objecting to their official government narrative (re-think). Justifiably or not, these groups have consistently blamed the USA for the ills of the world and would be susceptible to their confirmation bias. 

The Russian minister is fanning the flames of division, imo.


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> The Russian minister is fanning the flames of division, imo.


That's precisely correct, imo.

Also, yes! It's very complicated. (the trade part, reliance/dependency, etc)


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> I probably watch too much France24, Deutsche Welle, etc. The past week has seen a considerable amount of time being spent on the great "re-think". From my perspective, this is long overdue. However, the past couple of days has seen these nations' "leftist" thinking ease into the conversation, with these groups objecting to their official government narrative (re-think). Justifiably or not, these groups have consistently blamed the USA for the ills of the world and would be susceptible to their confirmation bias.
> 
> The Russian minister is fanning the flames of division, imo.


There are several ominous issues in the current state of affairs. Assuming Ukraine is eventually defeated, what then? Will Putin move on to a NATO country? If so, the US would almost certainly be drawn in. Combine that with Russia's warnings of unforeseen consequences and nuclear hints --- Yikes!


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> There are several ominous issues in the current state of affairs. Assuming Ukraine is eventually defeated, what then? Will Putin move on to a NATO country? If so, the US would almost certainly be drawn in. Combine that with Russia's warnings of unforeseen consequences and nuclear hints --- Yikes!


Ukraine will be defeated, imo, but after a significant loss of life and terrible suffering by the Ukrainians (or is it Iranians, us old folks can't keep this stuff straight). Belarus has become a puppet of Russia and will be the gateway to stirring up trouble in Lithuania... again my opinion. Kaliningrad Oblast is Russian territory, bounded by Lithuania, Poland and the Baltic Sea. It would not be unrealistic to expect some type of contrived separatist movement, similar to Ukraine's DonBas region, in southern Lithuania (a 60 miles stretch), so that a land connection would be in place between the puppet Belarus and the Oblast. Of course that would isolate the remainder of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia from the rest of NATO and the EU.


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> I would expect a Russian to spread division, but _our_ friends!
> 
> Last night on DW, Retired British and NATO General Richard Shirreff, stated this war was a result of U.S. weakness, due to Trump; the U.S. unwillingness to send heavy armored divisions to Europe, etc. Something that was routinely done in the 1980s. Not the small light infantry units currently being deployed.
> 
> _(whew!) _I won't go any further, as I was embarrassed on his behalf. He must have missed the U.S. drawdowns in Europe with the expectation that Europe would step in to fill the void. Actually, he did recognize it and has been beating the drums since, although mostly critical of the USA.


And (if memory serves) wasn't Putin given a seat (or at least the ability to vote and veto) on the International Security Counsel some time in the early or mid 90s?...basically tying the hands of other members.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Murrmurr said:


> And (if memory serves) wasn't Putin given a seat (or at least the ability to vote and veto) on the International Security Counsel some time in the early or mid 90s?...basically tying the hands of other members.


I may be wrongly assuming, but that has never stopped me... I assume you are referring to the United Nation Security Counsel. The USSR was an original member of the Security Council, with veto power etc. The Russian Federation assumed that role in the 1990s. Oddly, Ukraine is now contesting that, as there was never any recognition of the Russian Federation's right to assume the role of the U.S.S.R.

It's about 30 years late in getting anything done, imo.


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> I may be wrongly assuming, but that has never stopped me... I assume you are referring to the United Nation Security Counsel. The USSR was an original member of the Security Council, with veto power etc. The Russian Federation assumed that role in the 1990s. Oddly, Ukraine is now contesting that, as there was never any recognition of the Russian Federation's right to assume the role of the U.S.S.R.
> 
> It's about 30 years late in getting anything done, imo.


Yes, that's it. Thanks. And yeah, the point of contention now is that the USSR no longer exists.


----------



## Murrmurr

Furryanimal said:


> Jerusalem Post
> Russia confronts Finland, Sweden as invasion of Ukraine enters 8th day
> Air raid sirens blared throughout Ukraine overnight * At least eight Ukrainians were killed in Russian strikes overnight
> By TZVI JOFFRE, REUTERS Published: MARCH 3, 2022 08:21
> 
> 
> Russia sent letters to Finland and Sweden demanding that they provide security guarantees, according to the Echo of Moscow radio station, as the Nordic countries expressed interest in joining NATO and Russia's invasion of Ukraine entered its eighth day.
> ...
> The latest initiative stated that Finland must join NATO in order to fulfill its constitutional obligation to safeguard human rights.
> Four Russian fighter jets violated Swedish airspace on Wednesday, with Sweden's Air Force commander calling the act "unprofessional and irresponsible."
> 
> On Friday, Russia warned neighboring Finland of "serious military and political" repercussions if the Scandinavian nation opts to join NATO following the invasion of Ukraine.


An interesting development, maybe related, not sure - Ikea, Swedish furniture manufacturer, closed their stores in Russia today. 
I don't know if all or only some stores closed. 

Russians queued up for panic buying, the ques unbelievably long, people got a bit aggressive (though not by American standards, imo), guards placed at entrances and exits.


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> Ukraine will be defeated, imo, but after a significant loss of life and terrible suffering by the Ukrainians (or is it Iranians, us old folks can't keep this stuff straight). Belarus has become a puppet of Russia and will be the gateway to stirring up trouble in Lithuania... again my opinion. Kaliningrad Oblast is Russian territory, bounded by Lithuania, Poland and the Baltic Sea. It would not be unrealistic to expect some type of contrived separatist movement, similar to Ukraine's DonBas region, in southern Lithuania (a 60 miles stretch), so that a land connection would be in place between the puppet Belarus and the Oblast. Of course that would isolate the remainder of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia from the rest of NATO and the EU.


Interesting discussion of various outcomes for Ukraine in today's WSJ. One supposes that Ukraine is defeated and a puppet government installed by Moscow in Kyiv. The puppet government assembles a strong army to compel obedience from the population. The army, or a large part of it, then rebels and a civil war ensues. You and I may not be around to see the eventual outcome, whatever that may be, but it almost certainly will be a mess.


----------



## Lewkat

hollydolly said:


> I did a double take when I read this... what's going on now. ?.. why start on the USA ..?...Russia's foreign minister said today, as he compared the US to Nazi Germany ''
> quote:
> 
> _'Napoleon and Hitler had the objective to have the whole of Europe under their control, now Americans have got Europe under their control.
> 
> 'We see that the situation what role the EU is really playing in the context of the global situation, they are just fulfiling a role.
> 
> 'We see that there's a picture like in Hollywood of absolute evil and absolute good and this is unfortunate. _
> 
> read more  here, and see the video...
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...repeats-warning-WW3-nuclear-likens-NAZIS.html


There seems to be a total misconception as to who is being like a real Nazi here.  But this entire mess goes back to before the Clinton administration and probably even before that if one wishes to reach that far back.  Once the Desert Storm ensued, and was all but done, Clinton was voted into office.  Thus, was the brokering of Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal if we agreed to a non aggression of NATO into the Eastern Bloc.  Events were side tracked for awhile but once Putin got underway, it was always on the back burner as America pushed NATO to encourage more European countries to join them.  The East became interested and asked to join and the fun began.  One could almost have predicted what the ultimate outcome would be.  And with the Bidens getting involved in Ukraine with the son on the board of directors of the gas corp. and the father dictating to Ukraine that aid would be withheld if a certain Prosecutor wasn't replaced, that meddling was right up Putin's alley.  There's a lot of fault here to go around, but I don't like the civilians taking the brunt of all this, Holly.


----------



## Lewkat

I read in Pravda today that a Russian billionaire has offered one million dollars to a military Russian who will assassinate Putin.  First one gets the money.


----------



## hollydolly

Lewkat said:


> There seems to be a total misconception as to who is being like a real Nazi here.  But this entire mess goes back to before the Clinton administration and probably even before that if one wishes to reach that far back.  Once the Desert Storm ensued, and was all but done, Clinton was voted into office.  Thus, was the brokering of Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal if we agreed to a non aggression of NATO into the Eastern Bloc.  Events were side tracked for awhile but once Putin got underway, it was always on the back burner as America pushed NATO to encourage more European countries to join them.  The East became interested and asked to join and the fun began.  One could almost have predicted what the ultimate outcome would be.  And with the Bidens getting involved in Ukraine with the son on the board of directors of the gas corp. and the father dictating to Ukraine that aid would be withheld if a certain Prosecutor wasn't replaced, that meddling was right up Putin's alley.  There's a lot of fault here to go around, but I don't like the civilians taking the brunt of all this, Holly.


Ah, It all becomes much clearer now, thanks Lois...


----------



## hollydolly

Lewkat said:


> I read in Pravda today that a Russian billionaire has offered one million dollars to a military Russian who will assassinate Putin.  First one gets the money.


a Million dollars may not be a great amount to us .. but to an average Russian it may as well be 50 million...


----------



## Furryanimal

PM: ‘All of Europe’ threatened by Putin’s shelling of nuclear power station​Alana Calvert 41 mins ago
ocid=st&text=PM:+‘All+of+Europe’+threatened+by+Putin’s+shelling+of+nuclear+power+station&original_referer=http://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/AAUAu1U?ocid=st


Evening Standard

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said Russia’s shelling of a nuclear power station in the south-eastern Ukrainian city of Zaporizhzhia could “directly threaten the safety of all of Europe”.






© PA Wire Boris Johnson visit to Poland and Estonia
One of the power station’s – the largest in Europe – six reactors caught fire after it was attacked by Russia. While the reactor is under renovation, according to the power plant’s spokesman, it still contains nuclear fuel.
In an early morning phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, Mr Johnson vowed to seek an emergency UN Security Council meeting in a bid for a ceasefire.
Downing Street called the situation in Zaporizhzhia “gravely concerning”.
In a statement sent to PA News Agency, a spokeswoman for the PM’s office said: “Both leaders agreed that Russia must immediately cease its attack on the power station and allow unfettered access for emergency services to the plant.
“The Prime Minister said the reckless actions of President Putin could now directly threaten the safety of all of Europe. He said the UK would do everything it could to ensure the situation did not deteriorate further.
“The Prime Minister said he would be seeking an emergency UN Security Council meeting in the coming hours, and that the UK would raise this issue immediately with Russia and close partners.
“Both leaders agreed a ceasefire was crucial


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Furryanimal

Zelensky on Telegram
We are fighting against a powerful enemy that outnumbers us. Which surpasses us in the amount of equipment. But which is thousands of light years away from normal people who have dignity.

We experienced a night that could have stopped the history of Ukraine and Europe. Russian troops attacked the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant


----------



## Furryanimal

https://english.nv.ua/opinion/how-to-stop-the-russo-ukrainian-war-50222185.html


----------



## hollydolly

Furryanimal said:


> https://english.nv.ua/opinion/how-to-stop-the-russo-ukrainian-war-50222185.html


wow, that's a very long list.

It does concern me in a way.. because if you back a rat into a corner it's going to go for your throat... but it's hard to know what to do to stop this madman  otherwise


----------



## Jackie23

China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank freezes Russia lending

LONDON, March 3 (Reuters) - Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) said on Thursday it has put all activities relating to Russia and Belarus on hold and under review in the wake of the current conflict in Ukraine.

The Beijing headquarted AIIB said in a statement that its management would do its utmost to safeguard the financial integrity of AIIB, against the backdrop of the evolving economic and financial situation.

"Under these circumstances, and in the best interests of the Bank, Management has decided that all activities relating to Russia and Belarus are on hold and under review."

https://www.reuters.com/world/china...tment-bank-freezes-russia-lending-2022-03-03/


----------



## SmoothSeas

​


----------



## Murrmurr

Jackie23 said:


> China-led Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank freezes Russia lending
> 
> LONDON, March 3 (Reuters) - Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) said on Thursday it has put all activities relating to Russia and Belarus on hold and under review in the wake of the current conflict in Ukraine.
> 
> The Beijing headquarted AIIB said in a statement that its management would do its utmost to safeguard the financial integrity of AIIB, against the backdrop of the evolving economic and financial situation.
> 
> "Under these circumstances, and in the best interests of the Bank, Management has decided that all activities relating to Russia and Belarus are on hold and under review."
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/world/china...tment-bank-freezes-russia-lending-2022-03-03/


Huh. I wonder if that's a lie. I figured Putin was counting on China to be his back door to financial sanctions, and that Xi agreed to move and secure his money.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> our purchase of Russian oil -- a purchase in which it seems fair to assume that our billions are aiding Putin in the destruction of Ukraine.


It would appear that Russian Oil (Urals) is now at a very steep discount, as traders/shippers etc, worry about sanctions and getting caught with quantities of Russian oil, that no one wants. This is also driving up Brent and WTI. 

There also seems to be a worry, that Russia will start slowing Natural Gas, as EU and UK futures prices have shot through last fall's highs. One year ago those prices (converted to USD and MBTU energy) was about $5 for EU and UK. Currently sitting in the $65 range after staying mostly in the $25~$30 range after falling back from previous high of last fall. For reference the US Natural Gas futures price has doubled since last year to $5. Note: futures are generally referred to nearby or following month, which currently indicate traders anticipating a possible cut-off or restricting flow... and are trying to get their share before _something_ happens.

There are a myriad of potential worries, imo.


----------



## ElCastor

Harry Le Hermit said:


> It would appear that Russian Oil (Urals) is now at a very steep discount, as traders/shippers etc, worry about sanctions and getting caught with quantities of Russian oil, that no one wants. This is also driving up Brent and WTI.
> 
> There also seems to be a worry, that Russia will start slowing Natural Gas, as EU and UK futures prices have shot through last fall's highs. One year ago those prices (converted to USD and MBTU energy) was about $5 for EU and UK. Currently sitting in the $65 range after staying mostly in the $25~$30 range after falling back from previous high of last fall. For reference the US Natural Gas futures price has doubled since last year to $5. Note: futures are generally referred to nearby or following month, which currently indicate traders anticipating a possible cut-off or restricting flow... and are trying to get their share before _something_ happens.
> 
> There are a myriad of potential worries, imo.


Perhaps its time to reconsider recent restrictions on the domestic production of oil, natural gas, and fracking. We've been talking about replacing our ancient gas furnace. Maybe it's time to go electric -- ehh, probably not.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

ElCastor said:


> Perhaps its time to reconsider recent restrictions on the domestic production of oil, natural gas, and fracking. We've been talking about replacing our ancient gas furnace. Maybe it's time to go electric -- ehh, probably not.


You can drive a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. A lot of the restrictions are at the state level and is widely approved in those states... especially in the Northeast. I suppose the federal government could step in and force them to lift those restrictions. 

There are much more efficient gas furnaces on the market, but the upfront expense can only be recovered over a period of time. So it would depend on how much time is available... if you know what I mean. I gave solar a lot of thought and even did some pricing, but the time for recovering costs, exceeding my anticipated timeline.


----------



## Furryanimal

@InnaSovsun
Twins were born in #Kharkiv yesterday under fire. Today these boy and girl are orphans. Their parents died in the shelling of the #Russian occupiers. Parents stayed with their children for less than a day...

Photo from the bomb shelter in the Kharkiv maternity hospital


----------



## Furryanimal

Some good news for Ukraine

Grygori Vovchynskyi

Gold Medal Para Biathlon Standing


----------



## Furryanimal

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/ukra...-country-hell-conflict-gripped-europe-1498715


----------



## Furryanimal

LONDON, March 5 (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Saturday that Western sanctions on Russia were akin to a declaration of war and warned that any attempt to impose a no-fly zone in Ukraine would lead to catastrophic consequences for the world.

so there we have it...I firmly believe he has to be taken out.
I never thought I would live to see WW3.
Now I fear I might....


----------



## todalake

Putin is not going to back down,  if he did, he would be done.    He will lash out and last resort fire nuclear weapons.   If not taken out,  end of world as we know it.


----------



## David777

Pragmatic solution continues to be as suggested to all but NATO militarists, warmongers, and their resistant politicians and media.  Declare at least for a near period Ukraine NEUTRAL, free of NATO and weapons.  Each day the two stubborn sides continue their positions, the more horrible destruction, utterly sad loss of life, and misery results along with the threat of a war monger with 6000 nukes destroying the rest of the world.  The fact the majority of Western media continues to not mention neutrality as an option makes them complicit.  One can certainly understand the larger picture by a list of credible experts web searching with at Yahoo or Google with "NATO neutrality".


----------



## hollydolly

_The Kremlin today threatened *Britain* with 'tough retaliatory measures' as President Vladimir Putin said devastating Western sanctions against Russia are verging on a declaration of war, and warned that any country imposing a no-fly zone over Ukraine would be considered to have entered the on-going conflict.

The threats came as Moscow's brutal assault on Ukraine saw a mass civilian evacuation from Mariupol derailed when Russian forces ignored a promised ceasefire and continued shelling the southern city.

Britain's Ministry of Defence (MoD) said Saturday evening that Russia's proposed ceasefire was likely an attempt to regroup its forces for a new onslaught, while also an attempt to deflect international condemnation.

'By accusing Ukraine of breaking the agreement, Russia is likely seeking to shift responsibility for current and future civilian casualties in the city,' the British defence ministry said in an intelligence update. 

Russia's defence ministry accused Ukrainian 'nationalists' of preventing civilians from leaving, RIA news agency reported. But Mariupol's city council said Russia was not observing the ceasefire.

A defiant Putin today called the West's economic, diplomatic and cultural boycott of the country tantamount to a declaration of war and warned that his regime would consider any third-party declaration of a no-fly zone as 'participation in the armed conflict'._

*In an astonishing display of sabre-rattling, Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova warned London: 'Russia will not forget Britain's desire to co-operate with ultra-nationalist forces in Ukraine and the supply of British weapons to the Kiev regime'. 

She added: 'The sanctions hysteria in which London plays one of the leading, if not the main, roles, leaves us no choice but to take proportionately tough retaliatory measures. London has made a final choice of open confrontation with Russia. *


----------



## Becky1951

Push a madman too far and he may decide to go out in a blaze of glory and take as many as possible with him. And with 6000 nukes? He is threat to humanity.


----------



## hawkdon

Putin is desparatly trying to remake the world, back to 
the glory days of Communism....perhaps we should give
him a nuke to think about that decision......


----------



## Murrmurr

hawkdon said:


> Putin is desparatly trying to remake the world, back to
> the glory days of Communism....perhaps we should give
> him a nuke to think about that decision......


Yeah, I'm sick of watching the "free world" play footsies with this guy, and with the CCP, too.


----------



## Tish

Russian forces advance towards the third nuclear power plant
By Associated Press09:25
Russian forces have now seized two Ukrainian nuclear power plants and are advancing toward a third, Ukraine's president said during a call with US senators.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the third plant currently under threat is the Yuzhnoukrainsk nuclear power plant, located 120 kilometers north of Mykolaiv, one of several cities the Russians were trying to keep encircled Saturday.

One of the plants under the Russians' control is the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant in the southeastern city of Enerhodar the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe. The other is Chernobyl, which is not active but is still staffed and maintained. Previous Russian shelling sparked a fire at the Zaporizhzhia plant that was extinguished without a release of radiation.

He wants all the power plants.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

ElCastor said:


> *I don't mind paying for it, but I do mind paying Russia for it.* I would like to avoid politics but it does seem that until recently we were a net oil exporter.


Oil is a commodity. It is sold or bid on globally. Oil is used in many products so price increases will not just be for gas. Are you will to pay more for roofing, fertilizer, toilet seats and etc.?

Wheat is a commodity. It is sold or bid on globally. Ukraine accounts for 12% of the world's wheat exports . Just like Russia will soon be in control of a 3rd Ukrainian nuclear plant, at some point they will take charge of its wheat too. Wheat prices are already climbing. Are you willing to pay more for cereals, breads, crackers, Yorkshire puddings and etc.?

By the way, Russia accounts for 17% of wheat exports. So with sanctions, a total of 29% would be off the market.

Some things people are supposedly willing to do is just feel good reasoning. As prices go up, they will quickly blame a certain person in DC.


----------



## Furryanimal

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson urged the leaders of other countries to join a six-point plan to respond to the Russian invasion.
Ukrinform reports this with reference to Reuters.
Ahead of meetings with the leaders of Canada, the Netherlands and Central Europe in London next week, Johnson said that Russia in this act of aggression “must fail and must be seen to fail”.
"It is not enough to express our support for the rules-based international order - we must defend it against a sustained attempt to rewrite the rules by military force,” Johnson said.
According to him, the six-point plan includes the creation of an “international humanitarian coalition" for Ukraine; support for Ukraine "in its efforts to provide for its own self-defence”; economic pressure on Moscow; resistance to Russia's "creeping normalisation" of its actions in Ukraine; diplomatic ways on de-escalation that must be pursued, but only with the full participation of Ukraine's legitimate government; "rapid campaign to strengthen security and resilience" among NATO countries.
After meetings with the prime ministers of Canada and the Netherlands on Monday, Johnson is due to receive on Tuesday the leaders of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, the countries facing an influx of refugees due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.


----------



## ElCastor

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Oil is a commodity. It is sold or bid on globally. Oil is used in many products so price increases will not just be for gas. Are you will to pay more for roofing, fertilizer, toilet seats and etc.?
> 
> Wheat is a commodity. It is sold or bid on globally. Ukraine accounts for 12% of the world's wheat exports . Just like Russia will soon be in control of a 3rd Ukrainian nuclear plant, at some point they will take charge of its wheat too. Wheat prices are already climbing. Are you willing to pay more for cereals, breads, crackers, Yorkshire puddings and etc.?
> 
> By the way, Russia accounts for 17% of wheat exports. So with sanctions, a total of 29% would be off the market.
> 
> Some things people are supposedly willing to do is just feel good reasoning. As prices go up, they will quickly blame a certain person in DC.


I would prefer that rather than buy that oil from Putin we produced it ourselves, which I believe we are capable of doing. I am not alone in that desire, and I would be glad to post links supporting my position, but I don't wish to breach forum rules.


----------



## Furryanimal

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/op...l-in-ukraine-and-how-we-live-in-kyiv-now.html


----------



## David777

As I noted at the war's start, media, especially suppressed US media, as the horror drags on, would increasingly be showing a minority of expert voices that have promoted neutrality. An unpleasant yet pragmatic way forward given the obvious stubborn stalemate that is the current useless sad state of the game of chicken waiting for the other side to blink with signs of non-commitment, each side has played. If one Yahoo or Google searches with "NATO neutral", one will see plenty of other non-USA media news articles and opinions have been pointing to neutrality long beyond the start of the conflict. 

A Trump-appointed former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense says Russian forces have been 'too gentle' on Ukraine and called Zelensky a 'puppet'

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-appointed-former-senior-adviser-073609454.html
snippets:

_..."I don't see anything heroic about the man [Zelenski]," Macgregor said. "I think the most heroic thing he could do right now is come to terms with reality. Neutralize Ukraine."  He continued: "This is not a bad thing. A neutral Ukraine would be good for us and Russia. It would create the buffer that frankly both sides want but he's I think being told I think to hold on and trying to drag this out, which is tragic for the people that have to live through this."_

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/09/conflict-mediator-ukraine-vladimir-putin

I’m a conflict mediator. This is a way out of the Ukraine crisis

_One way through this would be for Nato to declare Ukraine a neutral country and decree that it does not join Nato for at least a decade. In practice, Ukrainian membership of the EU is ruled out for at least a generation because of Ukraine’s corruption, political dysfunction and lack of economic progress. Talks between Putin and France’s President Macron this week were more conciliatory in tone. Macron said: “There is no security for Europeans if there is no security for Russia.”..._


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

A touchy subject, but here goes with minimal comment... 

Since the Arab Oil Embargo and the passage of the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975, U.S. exports of crude oil were limited, until the lifting of that in late 2015...  https://ballotpedia.org/Crude_oil_export_ban

Prior to the latter legislation, the U.S. had historical exports of crude from Alaska, which was less than 100K barrels per day, until 2014, which saw the exports rise to approximately 500K barrels per day. After that latter legislation... exports soared to nearly 4MBPD in early 2020. This coincided with the peak of U.S. production of about 13MBPD. As can be noted by both charts, the drop from those peaks of both production and export are in near lockstep. Which poses the question as to whether more drilling equals more domestic supply?

The GAO conducted a study in 2020, which looked at the results of 2015 legislation and the impact of the Jones Act from 100 years ago. The latter should be of interest to West Coasters and Northeasterners.


----------



## ElCastor

Hallelujah! I just listened to CNN's Fareed Zakaria proclaim in no uncertain terms that the US must step up oil production and produce every drop possible, thereby halting Russian oil purchases and getting us in a position to support our European allies. Oil exports are a key to Russia's economy and it is the only way to hurt them and stop Putin.


----------



## Jackie23

Blinken says White House discussing prospect of a Russian oil ban as pleas increase​Source: *MSN*

U.S. leaders showed increasing support for a ban on Russian oil imports on Sunday, indicating what could be a step forward in heeding one of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s pleas, as the invasion of his country continues.

Zelenskyy on Saturday spoke with members of Congress, asking for actions to knee-cap Russia and aid the Ukrainian resistance to Vladimir Putin's attacks. Though White House leaders initially appeared resistant to one of his major asks — sanctions on Russian oil imports — the U.S. secretary of State on Sunday morning struck a less averse tone. He said he spoke with the president and other Cabinet officials on “exactly this subject” the day prior.

“We are now talking to our European partners and allies to look in a coordinated way at the prospect of banning the import of Russian oil, while making sure that there is still an appropriate supply of oil on world markets,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “That's a very active discussion as we speak.”

Previously, White House press secretary Jen Psaki had told reporters Friday that the administration was looking at actions to cut U.S. consumption of energy from Moscow, but added that the White House was “very focused on minimizing the impact to families” and expressed concern that a ban could raise gas prices.

Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...-russian-oil-ban-as-pleas-increase/ar-AAUGQmR


----------



## squatting dog

The current administration killed our pipelines, (from which oil came from our Canadian Allies by the way), killed coal, banned drilling. All of this has made us partially dependent on Russian oil, which has made Russia very wealthy. If Putin is the “bad guy,” and Russia is so evil, why are we continuing to buy billion of dollars worth of oil from Russia every day? Does this make any sense?

I’m for “America First.” I'm sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
This war is B.S. It doesn’t involve us. We should not be sending billions of dollars in aid, or sending billions of dollars in military weapons to Ukraine. I don’t want this to turn into WWIII. I don’t want my children, or your children dying over Ukraine.
We need to stay a million miles away from this conflict.

Just had another thought. If the Ukraine is doing so well at destroying Russian equipment and troops, (as it seems to be reported in newspapers everywhere), why are we needed?
Again... the smell test.


----------



## todalake

David777 said:


> As I noted at the war's start, media, especially suppressed US media, as the horror drags on, would increasingly be showing a minority of expert voices that have promoted neutrality. An unpleasant yet pragmatic way forward given the obvious stubborn stalemate that is the current useless sad state of the game of chicken waiting for the other side to blink with signs of non-commitment, each side has played. If one Yahoo or Google searches with "NATO neutral", one will see plenty of other non-USA media news articles and opinions have been pointing to neutrality long beyond the start of the conflict.
> 
> A Trump-appointed former senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense says Russian forces have been 'too gentle' on Ukraine and called Zelensky a 'puppet'
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-appointed-former-senior-adviser-073609454.html
> snippets:
> 
> _..."I don't see anything heroic about the man [Zelenski]," Macgregor said. "I think the most heroic thing he could do right now is come to terms with reality. Neutralize Ukraine."  He continued: "This is not a bad thing. A neutral Ukraine would be good for us and Russia. It would create the buffer that frankly both sides want but he's I think being told I think to hold on and trying to drag this out, which is tragic for the people that have to live through this."_
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/09/conflict-mediator-ukraine-vladimir-putin
> 
> I’m a conflict mediator. This is a way out of the Ukraine crisis
> 
> _One way through this would be for Nato to declare Ukraine a neutral country and decree that it does not join Nato for at least a decade. In practice, Ukrainian membership of the EU is ruled out for at least a generation because of Ukraine’s corruption, political dysfunction and lack of economic progress. Talks between Putin and France’s President Macron this week were more conciliatory in tone. Macron said: “There is no security for Europeans if there is no security for Russia.”..._


Ukraine was a NEUTRAL  country before the invasion.   Not a part of Nato or EU and still isn't.    
Ukraine gave up it nukes in a guarantee from Russia for safety.    After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production.[2] 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.[3] Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.[4] In 1994, Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

Russia built up forces around Ukraine for months,  they had no intentions for Ukraine to be neutral.    If we gave in now,  all Europe is vulnerable.  Since Alaska was once part of Russia,  should we give that back as well if threatened by Russia?

I think you are a Russian troll and shall just ignore you.


----------



## David777

todalake said:


> Ukraine was a...
> I think you are a Russian troll and shall just ignore you.



Someone doesn't agree with you, so resort to speculative personal attacks?   Read all 7 of your posts on the subject and you are obviously of the opinion of increased continued Ukrainian resistance to the tragic horrible Russian aggression I also detest. Fine, that is a part of freedom we Americans have. This person does not want to risk a nuclear war even if that means pragmatically choosing between poor choices.

https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/russia-attacks-ukraine-as-putin-warns-us-nato-of-‘consequences-you-have-never-seen’.69072/#post-2023050

_Feb 24  @todalake >>> Will the Ukrainian leadership stay and the army fight or will they flee and surrender like Afghan army?_

https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...invasion-of-ukraine.68716/page-9#post-2032263

_Mar 5 @todalake>>>Putin is not going to back down, if he did, he would be done. He will lash out and last resort fire nuclear weapons. If not taken out, end of world as we know it._

Not everyone shares your aggressive strategy.  You probably do not like reading when others might publicly speak out against that position as it might cause others here to lean in that direction also and tends to reflect a lack of unanimous opinion? So what? SeniorForums is a minor web community where whatever we say and think in civil respectful manners is certain to have infinitesimal consequence on that conflict in the same way our comments don't amount to much nationally or globally on anything else.  But it does allow each of we American citizens to understand different perspectives of others.  That is what my inputs as someone with little political interests are for, providing a range of perspectives on current events even though they may not reflect the talking points of those with real power or dominant news media.  Read my links and make your own decision, you are then welcome to address either pro or con.


----------



## Pepper

ElCastor said:


> Hallelujah! I just listened to CNN's Fareed Zakaria proclaim in no uncertain terms that the US must step up oil production and produce every drop possible, thereby halting Russian oil purchases and getting us in a position to support our European allies. Oil exports are a key to Russia's economy and it is the only way to hurt them and stop Putin.


I have great respect for the opinion of Fareed Zakaria.  Very knowledgeable, compassionate man.


----------



## mellowyellow

_Washington — Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Sunday that NATO members have the go-ahead to send fighter jets to Ukraine as the U.S. and allies continue their efforts to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia's invasion………………_

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-fighter-jets-antony-blinken-face-the-nation/


----------



## mellowyellow

Footage has emerged online of police officers in Moscow demanding the phones of passers-by, before reading their messages and refusing to release them if they refuse."


----------



## hollydolly

Now he's killing the children....

_This is the moment the grieving parents of an 18-month-old boy rushed into hospital weeping over their son's dead body after the toddler was killed by Russian shelling - as Russian forces spent another day shelling Ukrainian civilians yesterday killing at least eight.  

The 18-month-old boy named Kirill was fatally wounded in the the southern city of Mariupol after Russian forces shelled Ukraine's second city just minutes into an agreed ceasefire on Saturday. 

Kirill's devastated mother Marina Yatsko and her boyfriend Fedor were later seen grieving as they embraced their son's lifeless body laid out on a stretcher in the besieged city.  

And yesterday, in some of the most harrowing scenes of the war so far, the bodies of those killed in the mortar attack were seen lying motionless on a road.

Beside them were suitcases packed ahead of what they hoped would be a journey to safety. There was even a pet carrier among the luggage.

Three members of the same family were among those killed in the attack by Vladimir Putin's forces on Irpin, a town 12 miles from Kyiv._







Devastating images show the father of an 18-month-old boy named Kirill running into a hospital in Ukraine with his dying son





The grieving parents embraced their son's lifeless body laid out on a stretcher in the besieged city after the region came under shelling from Russian forces

_Horrific images captured the terrifying experience of mothers, fathers, grandparents and children running from Russian artillery fire.

On the 11th day of the conflict, men, women and children were needlessly targeted and their neighbourhoods reduced to ruins.

Across Ukraine, ceasefires brokered by the Red Cross were breached and humanitarian corridors were closed. The UK Government said Russia was targeting 'populated areas' to break the resistance of the Ukrainian people.

The use of this heinous tactic was beyond dispute last night despite Putin's denials and the disinformation emitting from Moscow.

Ukrainians are dying in towns and cities which, before February 24 when the invasion began, hardly anyone in Britain had heard of.

Less than a fortnight later, places such as Mariupol and Irpin are becoming horribly familiar as each day brings further suffering.

There were also scenes of devastation after attacks on residential areas in the city of Ovruch and village of Markhalivka, which are both close to Kyiv.

Almost 1,000 children have already been wounded, according to Ukraine's government, while 331 civilians, including at least 28 children, have been killed.
_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-victims-slaughtered-tried-flee-Ukraine.html


----------



## dseag2

squatting dog said:


> The current administration killed our pipelines, (from which oil came from our Canadian Allies by the way), killed coal, banned drilling. All of this has made us partially dependent on Russian oil, which has made Russia very wealthy. If Putin is the “bad guy,” and Russia is so evil, why are we continuing to buy billion of dollars worth of oil from Russia every day? Does this make any sense?
> 
> I’m for “America First.” I'm sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
> This war is B.S. It doesn’t involve us. We should not be sending billions of dollars in aid, or sending billions of dollars in military weapons to Ukraine. I don’t want this to turn into WWIII. I don’t want my children, or your children dying over Ukraine.
> We need to stay a million miles away from this conflict.
> 
> Just had another thought. If the Ukraine is doing so well at destroying Russian equipment and troops, (as it seems to be reported in newspapers everywhere), why are we needed?
> Again... the smell test


Our current administration is "between a rock and a hard place" between relying on oil and trying to avoid climate change.

https://www.americanrivers.org/2022...V4BayoQpYub1-RCXlMLhMnIhiSjhh8zBoCuw4QAvD_BwE

If you don't believe in climate change, just wait until it hits your area like it did ours in Texas last year when over 200 people died because of cold temps and no electricity.   Apply your "smell test" to this.


----------



## Furryanimal

Come to Mother Russia..

LVIV/KYIV, Ukraine, March 7 (Reuters) - Russia's military will hold fire and open humanitarian corridors in several Ukrainian cities on Monday, the Defence Ministry said, after fighting halted weekend evacuation efforts and civilian casualties from Russia's invasion mounted.

The corridors will opened at 10 a.m. Moscow time (0700 GMT) from the capital Kyiv as well as the cities of Kharkiv, Mariupol and Sumy and are being set up at the personal request of French President Emmanuel Macron, the ministry said.


According to maps published by the RIA news agency, the corridor from Kyiv will lead to Russian ally Belarus, and civilians from Kharkiv will only have a corridor leading to Russia. Corridors from Mariupol and Sumy will lead both to other Ukrainian cities and to Russia.

Those who want to leave Kyiv will also be able to be airlifted to Russia, the ministry said, adding it would use drones to monitor the evacuation.


"Attempts by the Ukrainian side to deceive Russia and the whole civilised world ... are useless this time," the ministry said


----------



## hollydolly

We thought we were liberating Ukraine from the Nazis​
_A captured Russian commander has begged for 'mercy' for Putin's forces attacking Ukraine, saying they were duped into invading in the false belief that the government had been overthrown by Nazis and needing liberating.

The man, who said he is a lieutenant-colonel in the Russian national guard's special rapid response unit, said his countrymen have been 'brainwashed' into supporting the war but - having seen the situation in Ukraine for himself - he now feels 'shame' in taking part and says Ukrainians are 'right' to resist.

Mikhailovich said his doubts solidified when he saw two of his favourite boxers - Oleksandr Usyk and Vasiliy Lomachenko - agreeing to fight for the resistance. And in a stark message delivered to Russian troops still fighting, he said: 'I'm begging you, stop before it is too late... Russia cannot win here.'

It echoes statements given by other Russian prisoners interviewed by Ukrainian forces, who said the order to attack came at short notice, that they were told the Ukrainian government had been deposed, and that they were going in a 'liberators' who should expect only light resistance. Instead, they walked into a bloodbath.

None of their accounts can be verified, and all statements are likely to have been given under some degree of duress. But the consistency with which the same story is being told - by soldiers from different units fighting in different areas of the country who have not had time to align their stories - is striking.

It came as Russian renewed its attack on surrounded Ukrainian cities today - pounding Mariupol, Chernihiv and Kharkiv in the early hours, though without making any significant ground gains. Except for limited advances in the south, Putin's force has now largely been at a standstill for days while taking heavy losses.




_

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-Russian-POW-begs-mercy-invading-forces.html


----------



## squatting dog

dseag2 said:


> Our current administration is "between a rock and a hard place" between relying on oil and trying to avoid climate change.
> 
> https://www.americanrivers.org/2022...V4BayoQpYub1-RCXlMLhMnIhiSjhh8zBoCuw4QAvD_BwE
> 
> If you don't believe in climate change, just wait until it hits your area like it did ours in Texas last year when over 200 people died because of cold temps and no electricity.   Apply your "smell test" to this.


Okay... I'll wait.
The all-time coldest temperature in Houston was 6 degrees on Feb. 12 and 13, 1899.

The all-time coldest for any month in Houston was 5 degrees on Jan. 18, 1930.

The all-time coldest December temperature in Houston was 7 degrees on Dec. 23, 1989.

And in the state of Texas it was -23 degrees Fahrenheit, in Tulia on February 12, 1899 
and again in Seminole on February 8, 1933.


----------



## squatting dog

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 211933
> 
> _Washington — Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Sunday that NATO members have the go-ahead to send fighter jets to Ukraine as the U.S. and allies continue their efforts to help Ukraine defend itself against Russia's invasion………………_
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-fighter-jets-antony-blinken-face-the-nation/




The Chancellery of the Prime Minister of Poland called this out as fake news just hours before Blinkens appearance on CBS News.
Yet he spun the lie anyway.
The Chancellery of the Prime Minister of Poland states, “Poland won’t send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.”


----------



## Lewkat

Having learned from horrible past experiences re: war, Europeans are closing ranks and going after the Russians in Ukraine.  They are all war weary and want no more, and who can blame them?  There is no reason for a sovereign nation like Ukraine to roll over and just give in to Putin as was mentioned in an earlier comment.  Every country has a right to self determination and not be dictated to.


----------



## Furryanimal

WASHINGTON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy appealed to American Jews for support on Monday with an unsparing account of Russian destruction in his country that he compared to the Nazi German army marching across Europe.

"This is just a pure Nazi behavior. I can't even qualify this in any different manner," Zelenskiy told an umbrellas group, the Conference of Presidents of American Jewish Organizations, as he continued to press for more fighter planes from the West and a no-fly zone that NATO has so far rejected.


Zelenskiy ran through a list of the cities and towns he said had been destroyed by Russian forces, while outnumbered Ukrainians were fighting with everything they had, even when they had no weapons.

"They are throwing themselves under the tanks - just for you to understand what's happening here," the Ukrainian leader, who is Jewish, said in a Zoom call.

The Russians are not letting people leave towns and cities they have attacked, are not allowing food and water to be brought in and are disconnecting the internet, television and electricity, he said.


"All of this happened during Nazi times," he said. "The survival of the Ukrainian nation - the question will be the same as anti-semitism.... All of these millions of people are going to be exterminated."

Zelenskiy said 13 people died in the bombing of a bakery in Kyiv on Monday and on Sunday, 50 children with cancer had to be moved after a missile hit a pediatric hospital in the city.

Russia calls the campaign it launched on Feb. 24 a "special military operation" to disarm Ukraine and remove leaders it describes as neo-Nazis. Ukraine and its allies call this a pretext for an invasion to conquer the nation of 44 million.


The scope and scale of the Russian assault on his country was as unexpected and devastating as the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were for Americans, he said.

"They're bombing the life out of everything that is moving,"

Zelenskiy told the group.

Reporting by Doina Chiacu; Editing by Cynthia Osterman


----------



## Furryanimal

LONDON, March 8 (Reuters) - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy will address British lawmakers via videolink in the House of Commons on Tuesday, the first time a president of another country has addressed the main Westminster chamber.

Zelenskiy, who has spoken to British Prime Minister Boris Johnson on several occasions since Russia invaded his country, has made a number of impassioned speeches to Western leaders in the last week, asking for supplies and military support.


He will address the chamber at 1700 GMT when formal parliamentary business will be suspended. Lawmakers will be able to watch the speech on screens installed overnight, with 500 headsets providing a simultaneous translation in English.

Former world leaders including U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, and Germany's Angela Merkel, have previously made speeches in other parts of the parliamentary estate on the banks of the River Thames, including in the ornate Royal Gallery or vast Westminster Hall.


"Every parliamentarian wants to hear directly from the president, who will be speaking to us live from Ukraine, so this is an important opportunity for the House," Speaker Lindsay Hoyle said in a statement.

"Thanks again to our incredible staff for working at pace to make this historic address possible."

Ben Wallace, Britain's defence minister, told Sky News he expected the address to be "incredibly powerful".


"President Zelenskiy is the spirit of Ukraine, which is young, which is liberal thinking, which is outward facing, which is European, and that's what Russia or President (Vladimir) Putin just doesn't understand," he said.

Ukraine's ambassador to London was given a very rare standing ovation when he appeared in the chamber to observe Johnson answering lawmakers' questions last week.

Reporting by Kate Holton; editing by Michael Holden


----------



## Lavinia

todalake said:


> Ukraine was a NEUTRAL  country before the invasion.   Not a part of Nato or EU and still isn't.
> Ukraine gave up it nukes in a guarantee from Russia for safety.    After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production.[2] 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.[3] Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.[4] In 1994, Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
> 
> Russia built up forces around Ukraine for months,  they had no intentions for Ukraine to be neutral.    If we gave in now,  all Europe is vulnerable.  Since Alaska was once part of Russia,  should we give that back as well if threatened by Russia?
> 
> I think you are a Russian troll and shall just ignore you.


At least someone here has the facts right. I was beginning to think all Americans were completely ignorant of the truth!


----------



## Pepper

Lavinia said:


> At least someone here has the facts right. I was beginning to think all Americans were completely ignorant of the truth!


Oh come on Lavinia, are you deliberately trying to piss people off?  No, all people are never at the same level just as all people from England are not rude. * "all Americans were completely ignorant of the truth!"*
I've never been accused of being an apologist or a patriotit but you girl are being ridiculous.  I'm calling you out!


----------



## David777

Note I have not had cable tv for over 2 decades and currently never streaming services so am OTA. Here in the SFBA, I can reach 100 to 120 channels each day though the majority are foreign language ethnic channels, especially SE Asian and Hispanic. But all the US broadcast channels plus public channels including a mix of NHK (Japan), France24, DW (Germany), BBC, CN (Chinese), and other external news sites in English. These tend to provide a less biased mix of war and political news than from our USA networks. As I've noted in other posts herein, I didn't know squat about this conflict until it recently arose. As a senior, am sick of a lifetime of manipulative US and global politics in media, so tend to usually ignore it. My main purpose in posting a bit is to help balance information.

In recent days of the war, the creation of humanitarian corridors, have been a common facet of news discussion. Opposing sides have muddied the understandable state of these escape routes by announcing their own biased views of what is happening.  As usual in a war, truth is of little interest if some narrative advantage with their public audience can be attained.  Russia in particular is manipulating this the most.  The following article on what they did in the Syrian conflict exposes their ruthless game plan, that apparently has been embraced since their war bogged down. 

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/08/1085...s-about-russias-use-of-humanitarian-corridors

My input herein is to expose other reasons not being illuminated in news.  That is an obvious reason Russia proposed corridors into Russia and Belarus, since those corridors would prevent use by their opponents.  Of course, neither side or their media mentions that because much of their audiences are easily manipulated.

So an issue not mentioned is the corridors without checkpoints that is the current situation, might be used by opposing forces to funnel more than just fleeing people into and out of conflict zones as in weapons, and disguised combatants.

A second issue being recently denied by either side is the use of disguised foreign conscripts.  Russia is using some Syrian soldiers familiar with urban gorilla warfare while Ukraine likewise employs Western military technical advisers not surprisingly.


----------



## David777

For those that do not have cable access to live streaming on some of the major international sites I noted above.  The below links will provide a range of perspectives and narratives uncommon in the USA, one can stream  via the Internet including live streams if available:

https://www.france24.com/en/
https://www.france24.com/en/live
Particularly enlightening is their The Debate forums with expert guests adding perspectives.

German DW tv
https://www.dw.com/en/tv/s-1452
https://www.dw.com/en/live-tv/s-100825

BBC English
https://www.bbc.com/news/world_radio_and_tv

Japan NHK World tv
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/live/

China CGTN tv
https://www.cgtn.com/


----------



## Warrigal

I'm a bit nocturnal and I have a radio beside my bed. I often listen to the BBC news service at different times during the night and can sometimes pick up radio Netherlands. I also watch/listen to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) for news and analysis. I find non commercial media much more informative than commercial radio and TV and less sensational. 

I keep in mind that during conflict some things are hidden from the public and truth is often manipulated for propaganda purposes. I try to absorb what I see/hear with a degree of scepticism but that requires a level of intellectual detachment that is sometimes hard to achieve.  

I am watching the Ukraine situation with a mixture of disinterest and horror. Inside I am weeping.


----------



## Warrigal

Warrigal said:


> I'm a bit nocturnal and I have a radio beside my bed. I often listen to the BBC news service at different times during the night and can sometimes pick up radio Netherlands. I also watch/listen to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) for news and analysis. I find non commercial media much more informative than commercial radio and TV and less sensational.
> 
> I keep in mind that during conflict some things are hidden from the public and truth is often manipulated for propaganda purposes. I try to absorb what I see/hear with a degree of scepticism but that requires a level of intellectual detachment that is sometimes hard to achieve.
> 
> I am watching the Ukraine situation with a mixture of disinterest and horror. Inside I am weeping.


Edit.

I am now listening to an interview on ABC Radio National discussing various developments in Ukraine, Europe and US. It is 8 minutes long and is worth listening to. The man being interviewed is Prof Taras Kuzio, Research fellow at the Henry Jackson Society & a Professor of political science, Kyiv's National University Mohyla Academy

Ukraine's President Zelensky gives historic address to House of Commons - RN Breakfast - ABC Radio National


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Although common in wars, the amount of misinformation in this conflict is significantly more than usual. Moreover, much of the misinformation appears to be coming from third parties that are independent of both militaries or governments. Individuals around the world are using social media to spread large amounts of misinformation."

"For example, supporters of both sides are posting false videos of success for the Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces. A viral video showed a Ukrainian aircraft shoot down a Russian MiG over a Ukrainian city. Meanwhile, another trending video showed a Russian MiG avoiding a barrage of surface-to-air missiles. In reality, both of these videos were from the popular videogame _Arma 3_ and were eventually removed from social media."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikram...t-role-in-russia-ukraine-war/?sh=76302c7c2f2e


----------



## mellowyellow

WARSAW, March 8 (Reuters) - Poland is ready to deploy all its MIG-29 jets to Ramstein Air Base in Germany and put them at the disposal of the United States, and urges other NATO members that own planes of that type to do the same, the Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday.


----------



## mellowyellow

Oligarch Vladimir Lisin, the chairman and main shareholder of the NLMK Group, one of Russia’s largest steel makers, has called for an immediate end to the Russian war in Ukraine. The Moscow-based billionaire reportedly sent a letter to NLMK staff, which was subsequently widely shared on social networks.


----------



## officerripley

This YouTube vid is kind of amazing; it's done by Radio Free Europe which, although it started as a propaganda source, is supposed to be relatively reliable. Anyway, they're interviewing Russians at home about the war and sounds like some of the people are in total denial, or highly likely terrified to say much:


----------



## mellowyellow

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said "Regarding NATO, I have cooled down regarding this question long ago after we understood that NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine." He added "The alliance is afraid of controversial things and confrontation with Russia. I never wanted to be a country which is begging something on its knees. We are not going to be that country, and I don't want to be that president."


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## David777

@mellowyellow, if Zelenski indeed recently stated that, then that is a well crafted start to real movement towards a truce ending increased suffering.  In simple words, it reflects he understands after playing is hand with excellence, the geopolitical reality of the stalemate so will move his game to a new phase.


----------



## Furryanimal

“Free Sky” artistic action: Kyiv Classic Orchestra will play a concert on Maidan Nezalezhnosti in support of the appeal of the people and the President of Ukraine to world leaders to close the sky
9 March 2022 - 09:38
On the birthday of the world-famous genius of the Ukrainian people Taras Shevchenko, an artistic action "Free Sky" in support of the call of the Ukrainian people and President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy to the West and other countries to close the sky over our country and stop the war will take place on Maidan Nezalezhnosti in Kyiv.
Under the direction of the conductor, "Artist of UNESCO in the name of peace" Herman Makarenko, musicians of the Kyiv-Classic Symphony Orchestra who remained in the Ukrainian capital will perform the National Anthems of Ukraine and Europe (a piece of Ludwig van Beethoven's "Ode to Joy") and a number of famous Ukrainian musical compositions.
In particular, the orchestra will perform a fragment of the ballet "Lileya" by Ukrainian composer Kostiantyn Dankevych based on the ballad of the same name by Taras Shevchenko; "Kozachok" from the first opera on the libretto in Ukrainian "Zaporozhets za Dunayem" by Semen Hulak-Artemovsky; Ukrainian folk song "Nich yaka misiachna"; fragment of the overture to the opera "Taras Bulba" by Mykola Lysenko.
"We want the music of peace, the music of life in our performance to reach the heart of every resident of the free world and the leaders of these countries to help them find a decision that would make the Ukrainian sky, under which we will perform, safe," Herman Makarenko emphasized.
The event will be broadcast


----------



## Furryanimal

Radio Free Europe



KYIV -- Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba has called on Russia to agree to a cease-fire to allow repairs to the Chernobyl power plant, the site of one of the world's worst nuclear disasters, after it was fully cut off from the electrical grid, raising the risk of radiation leaks.

Ukraine's national energy company, Ukrenergo, said on March 9 that electricity to the plant was cut off due to a disruption of an electricity line connecting the Chernobyl nuclear plant with the electricity supplier in Kyiv.

The outage puts at risk some 20 tons of waste that must be constantly cooled to keep radiation leaking and potentially endangering "Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and Europe."

"The entire power supply line of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and all its nuclear facilities controlled by the Russian Army has been damaged," Kuleba said on Twitter.

"Chernobyl has lost power. I call on the entire international community to immediately call on Russia to cease fire and allow repair crews to restore the electricity supply as soon as possible," he said, noting reserve diesel generators had a 48-hour capacity to power the plant, after which the cooling systems will stop, "making radiation leaks imminent."

The cause of the outage was not given, but during the launch of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine on February 24, the still-radioactive site, which lies some 100 kilometers from Kyiv, was taken over by Russian forces during a pitched battle in the area.

Since then, 210 Ukrainian personnel have been working at the nuclear plant without being rotated out for fresh workers.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said on March 8 that Ukraine had informed it about the urgent need to rotate the nuclear plant's personnel.

"[Ukraine] asked the IAEA to lead the international support needed to prepare a plan for replacing the current personnel and for providing the facility with an effective rotation system," the IAEA said in a statement.


----------



## hollydolly

_A maternity hospital in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol has been blown up in a 'direct hit' by Russian rockets leaving children buried in the rubble, President Zelensky has said, in what he described as an 'atrocity.'

Zelensky posted a video showing the badly damaged hospital buildings, filmed inside a destroyed ward room with its windows blown out and ceiling partially collapsed. More footage showed a car park covered in rubble and the smouldering wrecks of vehicles as injured families evacuated into the freezing air while snow fell. 

Direct strike of Russian troops at the maternity hospital. People, children are under the wreckage. Atrocity! How much longer will the world be an accomplice ignoring terror? Close the sky right now! Stop the killings! You have power but you seem to be losing humanity,' he tweeted.

The local city council said the hospital had suffered 'colossal' damage but did not immediately give a figure of the wounded and dead. The deputy head of Mr Zelensky's office, Kyrylo Tymoshenko, said authorities are trying to establish the number of victims.

Mariupol has been under heavy Russian bombardment for more than a week, with food, water and electricity cut off several days ago. Just hours before the hospital was hit, Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba had warned that 3,000 babies were without food or medicines and begged for a humanitarian corridor to allow them to flee. Moscow had promised a ceasefire in the city today so civilians could be evacuated, but failed for the fourth time to keep its word.

Videos of the destruction here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eopens-evacuation-routes-besieged-cities.html_


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## todalake

No choice but to fight,   if you surrender now he will use same tactic again on next country.   I expect if they keep fighting, he will start using nuclear bombs on the cities.   Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians in the 30's, so expect this will get a lot worse.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

What I don't get is as a result of the invasion, certain first world countries are impounding expensive toys (yachts, jets, etc.) that belong to Russian oligarchs. How come this wasn't done last year or previous years? Maybe the powers to be knew about it but just let it go? Maybe the leaders in various countries got their palms greased? Or maybe they're just _fishing_ for a crime?


----------



## hollydolly

_Three Ukrainian volunteers were gunned down by Russian troops after they delivered dog food to starving animals at a shelter near Kyiv.


Anastasiia Yalanskaya, 26, together with Serhiy Ustymenko, 25 and Maxym Kuzmenko, 28, made the perilous journey to Bucha – 18 miles from Ukraine’s capital.


It is also close to the town of Irpin, where people are being evacuated to escape heavy shelling by Vladimir Putin’s forces.


The trio are thought to have been driving to collect Serhiy’s parents when their car was deliberately targeted with ‘heavy weaponry’ by Russian troops on Thursday.







Dmytro Zubkov, a friend of Maxym, told the Kyiv Independent the car, driven by Serhiy, was ‘obviously’ civilian.




‘Maxym was wearing a hat with a pom pom. They didn’t look like the military at all.’


The mayor of Bucha, Anatol Fedoruk, told how relentless artillery fire in the region meant people were unable to recover their loved ones.


The Kremlin claims it is only attacking military targets – but several stories of whole families being wiped out and countless photos of destroyed residential blocks paint a very different picture.





Anastasiia’s last Instagram story on March 3 showed her sitting in the back of the vehicle with bags of dog food.


The animals had been left for three days without anything to eat as Bucha was under heavy bombardment by Russian forces.

_


----------



## mellowyellow

……_President Joe Biden requested $10 billion for military, humanitarian and economic aid last week for Ukraine, and Democratic and Republican backing was so staunch that the figure grew to $12 billion Monday and $13.6 billion just a day later…….https://apnews.com/article/russia-u...lth-business-fa702b0f9efa4805b622739d302bc4cf

_


----------



## mellowyellow

Russia's defense ministry acknowledged on Wednesday that some conscripts were taking part in the conflict with Ukraine after multiple denials by President Vladimir Putin, who said only professional soldiers and officers had been sent in. The ministry said that some of them, serving in supply units, had been taken prisoner by the Ukrainian army.


----------



## mellowyellow

Ukraine has said Chernobyl could be 48 hours away from leaking radiation after it was disconnected from the national grid. Authorities have called on Russia to observe an urgent ceasefire to allow for repairs at the decommissioned nuclear plant to be made. The outage could put systems for cooling nuclear material at risk, meaning radioactive substances could be released into the air.


----------



## mellowyellow

_Russia has said it does not intend to overthrow President Volodymyr Zelensky's government nor occupy Ukraine. Using the Kremlin terminology for the war, Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the goals of Russia's "special military operation" were "the protection" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics in the Donbas region. The areas in the eastern part of Ukraine have been the scene of conflict since 2014, following Russia's seizure of Crimea_. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-zelensky-occupy-1686260


----------



## Warrigal

This is the news I just woke up to. The reporter was a seasoned foreign correspondent for the ABC and she heard the news directly from the Deputy PM of Ukraine. The DPM showed the journalists her phone with a message to the Russians requesting permission to send in a team to send a team to repair the damaged electricity supply and said there had been no reply.

Link- Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister warns of potential Chernobyl disaster due to power cut but IAEA says situation is not critical (msn.com)




Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister warns of potential Chernobyl disaster due to power cut but IAEA says situation is not critical​
The Deputy Prime Minister of Ukraine, Iryna Vereschuk, has told the ABC's Four Corners that the world faces a potential nuclear catastrophe at the Chernobyl nuclear power station after shelling cut power to the Ukrainian plant.

"Last time it was one reactor, now it’s four and none of them have power," Ms Vereschuk, said, adding that Russian military action had blocked access to the site. If Russia doesn't take this seriously and doesn't let our repair crews through, tomorrow it may be too late."

Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba called for a ceasefire to fix power issues and said reserve diesel generators could power the plant for 48 hours but after that he would be concerned about radiation leaks.

However the United Nations’ International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said it was informed of the loss of power at the nuclear plant but that it presented no "critical impact on safety". However the agency said the development at the plant violated a "key safety pillar on insuring uninterrupted power supply".

The agency had earlier reported it had lost communication with sensors at the plant.

The Ukrainian National Power Company, UKRENERGO, issued a statement saying because of "Russian Occupiers" the Chernobyl power plant was fully disconnected from the power grid and the plant has no power supply.  (Apparently there are generators but they only have fuel enough for 2 days)

One key issue is the 20,000 used fuel rods kept at the site.

The Ukrainian energy regulator, Energoatom, had a grimmer assessment than IAEA, saying the 20,000 spent fuel rods at the facility needed constant cooling, using electricity. The IAEA said the heat load of spent fuel and the volume of cooling water at the site meant cooling could occur without electricity supply.

Speaking to the ABC from the heavily fortified presidential headquarters in central Kyiv, Ms Vereschuk said her Russian counterparts had not responded to urgent messages requesting access to the Chernobyl site.

"This is a threat not only to Ukraine but to Russia and the whole world," she said.

When asked what her government's next move would be, Ms Vereschuk said: "We're going to call an emergency session of the UN. We're going to address world leaders and international organisations. And that is being done as we speak."


----------



## todalake

Saw a news video of Ukrainian man who had talked to his father in Russia.   Son told dad, 'we are being bombed'.  Dad said no,  saw on tv where Russian soldiers are handing out food and warm clothing to Ukrainians.  Dad would not believe son.


----------



## Warrigal

todalake said:


> Saw a news video of Ukrainian man who had talked to his father in Russia.   Son told dad, 'we are being bombed'.  Dad said no,  saw on tv where Russian soldiers are handing out food and warm clothing to Ukrainians.  Dad would not believe son.


Putin has total control of the Russian media and has been deceiving his people for a long time. Troops in Ukraine have been deprived of their phones and are not able to tell their folks at home exactly what is going on and what they are being asked to do. Not surprising. It is always the same during a war - letters home to Australia were read and censored before they were allowed to be posted as far back as WW I.

The words 'war' and 'invasion' are not permitted on Russian media. We do well to remember that the first casualty of war is Truth, but eventually Truth will out.


----------



## mellowyellow

One of the world's most fearsome snipers is set to join the fighting in Ukraine after answering President Volodymyr Zelensky's call for foreign volunteers to help defeat Russian invaders. The marksman, known only by his nickname 'Wali', hails from the Royal Canadian 22nd Regiment and has previous combat experience from fighting in the Kandahar theatre during the Afghanistan War between 2009 and 2011.


----------



## Shalimar

*He is Quebecois.  Some of the world’s best snipers are Canadian military. It has been so since WW1.*


----------



## mellowyellow

KUTA, Indonesia: When Russian tourist Konstantin Ivanov tried to draw money from his home bank account at a cash machine on the Indonesian resort island of Bali, the transaction was blocked. Unprecedented sanctions against Russia's banks over its invasion of Ukraine are taking a toll on its citizens overseas, who have been left scrambling to find cash or turn to crypto transactions to get by.


----------



## Lavinia

Warrigal said:


> I'm a bit nocturnal and I have a radio beside my bed. I often listen to the BBC news service at different times during the night and can sometimes pick up radio Netherlands. I also watch/listen to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) for news and analysis. I find non commercial media much more informative than commercial radio and TV and less sensational.
> 
> I keep in mind that during conflict some things are hidden from the public and truth is often manipulated for propaganda purposes. I try to absorb what I see/hear with a degree of scepticism but that requires a level of intellectual detachment that is sometimes hard to achieve.
> 
> I am watching the Ukraine situation with a mixture of disinterest and horror. Inside I am weeping.


Keeping an open mind is always a good approach. The media try to manipulate us on many subjects. It's very frustrating when what we want to do is put a stop to what is happening, but all we can do is watch helplessly. At least we are able to make it clear whose side we are on.


----------



## Murrmurr

mellowyellow said:


> _Russia has said it does not intend to overthrow President Volodymyr Zelensky's government nor occupy Ukraine. Using the Kremlin terminology for the war, Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the goals of Russia's "special military operation" were "the protection" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics in the Donbas region. The areas in the eastern part of Ukraine have been the scene of conflict since 2014, following Russia's seizure of Crimea_. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-zelensky-occupy-1686260


I don't believe anything he says.

I saw a video today; a CNN interviewer talking to a former long-time head of the Russian embassy in Ukraine (and elsewhere) who claims he knows Putin exceptionally well. He said that Putin's military generals lie to Putin rather than ever give him bad news, because they're afraid of him. In fact, he said they would place Putin under arrest and escort him out of the Kremlin before confessing to him that things aren't going so well in Ukraine.


----------



## Lavinia

Murrmurr said:


> I don't believe anything he says.
> 
> I saw a video today; a CNN interviewer talking to a former long-time head of the Russian embassy in Ukraine (and elsewhere) who claims he knows Putin exceptionally well. He said that Putin's military generals lie to Putin rather than ever give him bad news, because they're afraid of him. In fact, he said they would place Putin under arrest and escort him out of the Kremlin before confessing to him that things aren't going so well in Ukraine.


This shows how having one man at the top with all the power is the wrong political system. If all countries were governed by a committee, perhaps there would be more negotiating and less conflict.


----------



## Murrmurr

An independent news video said there are about 10,000 Chinese living in Ukraine, mostly students and small business owners. Weeks before Russia invaded Ukraine, the US, UK, India and other countries urged their citizens to leave, and made arrangements for evacuation. China did not. When Russia actually invaded, Chinese social media lit up with posts cheering for Russia, and jokes circulated about "taking in" Ukrainian women, "only beautiful ones, with very white skin". The Chinese Embassy in Ukraine urged Chinese citizens there to display the Chinese flag, saying it would keep them safe, but after those social media posts were circulated all over Ukrainian, the Chinese people there started being yelled at and threatened, no Ukrainians shopped at their stores and they were chased out of Ukrainian people's stores.

So Chinese people in Ukraine went on Chinese social media and begged everyone to stop cheering for Russia and making raunchy jokes about Ukrainian women. They begged the Chinese embassy to get them the hell out of Ukraine and back home to China, but the embassy did nothing; gave them the run-around and told them NOT to display the flag. 

After 4 Chinese students were killed by Russian bombs that hit a university, flights to China were finally arranged, but the evacuating Chinese had to pay nearly $3,000 (US equivalent) for a ticket. Most students didn't have the money, others couldn't access their money. As of that report, only 400 Chinese have been evacuated from Ukraine. Hearing about all this, some Ukrainians started feeling sorry for the Chinese people stuck in their country, and helped them get food and supplies. One Chinese guy even said that, when he broke down crying in public, an elderly Ukrainian woman went over and hugged him. "It was a long hug," he said, "and now I'm not afraid. I feel safe and warm, like that woman's hug."


----------



## Warrigal

People of Chinese descent are everywhere and are often made scapegoats for social anger.
Quite often it is their businesses that are looted and burnt whenever there is a riot or violent protest.

Chinese have lived in Australia since and before the gold rushes. They have been badly treated in the past but are now protected by law from discrimination.

This is a photo of my favourite Chinese expat, Senator Penny Wong, of Chinese descent, born in Malaysia, raised and educated in Australia and now a long serving Senator for South Australia.

She is Christian, a married lesbian with a child born to her wife and has held many responsible positions in government and in opposition





She is calm for the most part but when she is on her feet in the Senate she can be quite the virago as she tears into some nonsense from the other side of the floor.

Her resume is impressive and if she, or someone like her were to be expelled or locked up in time of war for being Chinese (she is an Australian citizen) then Australia would lose a very valuable human asset.  Yes, I am a bit of a fan girl where Penny is concerned.

Her Biography​Parliamentary service

Elected to the Senate for South Australia 2001. Re-elected 2007, 2013 and 2016.
Ministerial appointments

Minister for Climate Change and Water from 3.12.2007 to 8.3.2010.
Cabinet Minister from 3.12.2007 to 18.9.2013.
Minister for Climate Change, Energy Efficiency and Water from 8.3.2010 to 14.9.2010.
Minister for Finance and Deregulation from 14.9.2010 to 18.9.2013.
Committee service

Senate Standing: Parliamentary Library from 1.7.2002 to 15.11.2004; Senators' Interests from 1.7.2002 to 15.11.2004; Appropriations and Staffing from 26.6.2013 to 9.5.2016; Procedure from 26.6.2013 to 9.5.2016; Procedure from 1.9.2016; Appropriations, Staffing and Security from 1.9.2016.
Senate Select: Superannuation from 10.12.2002 to 10.9.2003; Ministerial Discretion in Migration Matters from 23.6.2003 to 31.3.2004.
Senate Legislative and General Purpose Standing: Environment, Communications, Information Technology and the Arts: References from 1.7.2002 to 15.11.2004; Finance and Public Administration: References from 1.7.2002 to 1.3.2004; Economics: References from 1.3.2004 to 15.11.2004; Education, Employment and Workplace Relations: Legislation from 18.11.2004 to 1.7.2005.
Joint Statutory: Corporations and Financial Services from 1.7.2002 to 17.10.2007; Intelligence and Security from 16.7.2014 to 25.11.2014; Intelligence and Security from 25.6.2015 to 9.5.2016; Intelligence and Security from 13.9.2016.
Parliamentary party positions

Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate from 4.2.2013 to 26.6.2013.
Leader of the Government in the Senate from 26.6.2013 to 18.9.2013.
Shadow Minister for Corporate Governance and Responsibility from 26.10.2004 to 3.12.2007.
Shadow Minister for Employment and Workforce Participation from 26.10.2004 to 10.12.2006.
Shadow Minister for Public Administration and Accountability from 10.12.2006 to 3.12.2007.
Shadow Minister for Workforce Participation from 10.12.2006 to 3.12.2007.
Leader of the Opposition in the Senate from 18.9.2013.
Shadow Minister for Trade and Investment from 18.10.2013 to 23.7.2016.
Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs from 23.7.2016.
Other positions

Member of the South Australian Law Society Human Rights Committee from 1998 to 2002.
Chair of the UNIFEM Adelaide Breakfast Committee from 1999 to 2001.
Personal

Born 5.11.1968, Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia
Qualifications and occupation before entering Federal Parliament

BA(Juris) (University of Adelaide).
LLB(Hons) (University of Adelaide).
GradDipLegPrac (University of South Australia).
Industrial officer from 1990 to 1994.
Senior Policy Adviser to the Minister for Land and Conservation (NSW), the Hon. K Yeadon from 1995 to 1996.
Barrister and solicitor from 1996 to 1999.
Legal officer from 1999 to 2002.


----------



## hollydolly

_Sergei Lavrov has made the extraordinary claim that Russia '*did not attack Ukraine'* *and dismissed the Mariupol hospital bombing as a 'pathetic outcry'* as peace talks broke down in Turkey today.
 Vladimir Putin's attack dog met with Ukraine's foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba, who vowed his country 'will not surrender' to Russia as the negotiations made no progress towards a ceasefire. Speaking after the failed talks, Lavrov said: 'We are not planning to attack other countries.

Speaking after the failed talks, Lavrov said: 'We are not planning to attack other countries. *We didn't attack Ukraine, either.'*

Lavrov said in reference to the hospital attack: *'It is not the first time we see pathetic outcries concerning the so-called atrocities perpetrated by the Russian military.'
*
Despite his bizarre claim that Russia is not attacking Ukraine, he then admitted the hospital was deliberately targeted, saying it had been taken over by Ukrainian radicals and all the 'mothers and nurses were chased out of there'.

Images from the senseless shelling, which saw three people killed including one child and dozens injured, show pregnant mothers and nurses being rushed from the building on stretchers among the rubble.

But Lavrov said: 'A few days ago, at a meeting of the UN Security Council, the Russian delegation presented the facts that this maternity hospital had long been captured by the Azov battalion and other radicals, all women in labor, all nurses, and in general, all the staff were expelled from there. It was the base of the ultra-radical Azov battalion.'

The Kremlin lackey again accused the West of stoking up tensions and insisted that Russia was carrying out 'special operations' in Ukraine.

He said Ukrainians are being used as human shields by 'so-called territorial defence forces' and claimed Russia was operating humanitarian corridors for the safe evacuation of civilians, despite repeated shelling of the escape routes. 

The foreign minister also accused the West of providing Ukraine with weapons.

He said: 'We see how dangerously our Western colleagues, including in the European Union, are acting now, which, in violation of all its so-called principles and values, encourages the supply of deadly weapons to Ukraine.'
_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...raine-dismisses-pathetic-outcry-hospital.html


----------



## hollydolly

_Britains' Defence minister James Heappey today insisted the bombing of a maternity hospital in Ukraine was a war crime and called for Vladimir Putin and Russian generals to be held to account.

Mr Heappey stressed that the West is gathering evidence that can be used in a future prosecution, but said in a round of interviews: 'What you see on your TV screens is a war crime.' 

The comments came as it was confirmed three people, including a child, died when warplanes bombed the hospital in beseiged Mariupol as pregnant women gave birth in the basement.

President Volodymyr Zelensky has described the attack as an 'atrocity' and 'the ultimate proof of genocide against Ukrainians'. 

The hospital, in the besieged city of Mariupol, was hit 'several times' by high-explosive Russian bombs - one of which missed the building by yards and left a crater two-stories deep, officials said. Other bombs scored 'direct hits', President Zelensky said, wounding at least 17 people.

Olha Stefanishyna, Ukraine's deputy Prime Minister, said there can be 'no doubt' the hospital was deliberately 'targeted' by Russia in a chilling echo tactics used during the bombing of the Syrian city of Aleppo while Putin's men were fighting alongside dictator Basahr al-Assad's troops. Moscow denies targeting civilian facilities. 

And Mr Heappey told Sky News this morning: 'What you see on your TV screens is a war crime. 

'Clearly there is evidence to be gathered in which to prove it is a war crime, and Western countries are working together to make sure that evidence is gathered in the best way so people can be held to account.

'What Putin is doing is not a war waged between two militaries. Right now he has besieged a number of Ukrainian cities and he has waged a war against Ukrainian civilians.' 

He added on BBC Breakfast: 'We ask ourselves the question how did this happen? Was it an indiscriminate use of artillery or missiles into a built-up area, or was a hospital explicitly targeted?

'Both are equally despicable, both, as the Ukrainians have pointed out, would amount to a war crime.

'So, what matters beyond the outrage of the fact that this has happened in the first place is to make sure all this is catalogued so when – and they surely will be – President Putin and everybody in the military chain of command beneath him – because war crimes are committed at every level not just the ultimate decision maker – people will be held to account for what they are doing in. It's utterly despicable.'





_
A woman injured in Russian shelling of Mariupol's maternity hospital stands outside wrapped in a blanket amid the carnage





_https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...demns-Ukraine-hospital-bombing-war-crime.html_


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## chic

I wish the Ukraine would negotiate for peace because if they choose war they will lose.


----------



## Shalimar

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 212430
> 
> One of the world's most fearsome snipers is set to join the fighting in Ukraine after answering President Volodymyr Zelensky's call for foreign volunteers to help defeat Russian invaders. The marksman, known only by his nickname 'Wali', hails from the Royal Canadian 22nd Regiment and has previous combat experience from fighting in the Kandahar theatre during the Afghanistan War between 2009 and 2011.


In his civilian life, he was a computer scientist.


----------



## hollydolly

_Bodies are piling up on the streets of Mariupol where starving Ukrainians have resorted to fighting each other for food in the desperate conditions in the besieged port city.

Residents have been sheltering for days without food, water and power in below freezing weather amid constant bombardment from Putin's forces, which saw a maternity hospital shelled yesterday, killing three people including a six-year-old girl.

This is despite Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov claiming that all women and nurses were evacuated from the hospital and it was deliberately targeted because it had been taken over by Ukrainian radicals, dismissing the Western reaction as a 'pathetic outcry'.

The Red Cross said the situation in Mariupol is so harrowing that people are 'attacking each other for food' on a day in which not a single person was evacuated to safety from the under-fire city. 

Supplies are so low that residents are melting snow for water and children are not being fed, with an estimated 1,207 people killed and bodies lying among the rubble.

Sasha Volkov, the delegation head of the Red Cross in the city, told the BBC there is 'some sort of a black market with vegetables' but other food is not available.

Medical supplies are running low and pharmacies 'were looted four to five days ago' amid the freezing conditions which drop to -9C at night with people huddling together for warmth in underground shelters. 











https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-food-besieged-Mariupol-Red-Cross-reveal.html_


----------



## Murrmurr

chic said:


> I wish the Ukraine would negotiate for peace because if they choose war they will lose.


But negotiating will result in Ukraine becoming a puppet of Putin. He would impose martial law and install a new president, one that will do whatever Putin says. The Ukrainians don't want to live like that.

If no one steps in, Russia will eventually get control of Ukraine, probably within a few weeks. That's why Ukrainian citizens are leaving in droves. In the end, Putin will have control over an under-populated country in complete shambles; buildings, roads, bridges and train tracks destroyed. He can't afford to repair and rebuild, and the EU will be no further away than before, really.


----------



## Pepper

chic said:


> I wish the Ukraine would negotiate for peace because if they choose war they will lose.


Peace at any price?  I thought you were into Freedom, chic.  A mask & a vaccination are worth fighting about, worrying you are losing Freedom?  I'm sure you know the NH motto:  Live Free or Die.  Hint:  It's not about masks........it's about what Freedom truly means.  It's the Real Thing.


----------



## Murrmurr

Pepper said:


> Peace at any price?  I thought you were into Freedom, chic.  A mask & a vaccination are worth fighting about, worrying you are losing Freedom?  I'm sure you know the NH motto:  Live Free or Die.  Hint:  It's not about masks........it's about what Freedom truly means.  It's the Real Thing.


"I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees." ― Euripides


----------



## Murrmurr

Pepper said:


> Peace at any price?  I thought you were into Freedom, chic.  A mask & a vaccination are worth fighting about, worrying you are losing Freedom?  I'm sure you know the NH motto:  Live Free or Die.  Hint:  It's not about masks........it's about what Freedom truly means.  It's the Real Thing.


Have a Coke and a Smile, Pepper.


----------



## hollydolly

chic said:


> I wish the Ukraine would negotiate for peace because if they choose war they will lose.


Negotiate for peace yes...surrender to the Dictator..NEVER!!


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Negotiate for peace yes...surrender to the Dictator..NEVER!!


And it's looking like Putin won't negotiate for anything short of surrender.

imo, he's digging himself into one deep hole...looking a lot like a grave.


----------



## hollydolly

It's sad  and sobering to just even think looking at the above pictures.. these people just 2 weeks ago... as we do now.. had all there things in their comfortable  homes.. .. they had a home, they had computers, and tv's , and their furnishings they've garnered over years,  and their belongings and their money and keepsakes, their much needed  medications, their  loved ones, and pets.. just 2 weeks ago... just as we do right now...and in an instant all these things are gone, and they've barely got clean clothes and are feeding out of a communal pot somewhere possibly underground 

These men were going to their jobs..their jobs which probably don't exist now.. the women, going to their jobs too, or home-making, or caring for an elderly parent. Going to and from the stores as we do.. going  to the nail salon .. to the hairdresser... ok, overall they might not have had as much as we do.. Ukraine is a poor country and the average family are very poor, but they would have had all these things in various ways..just as we do now. 

Look around you, just imagine right now.. these things and people which surround you.. most of us we take it all for granted  don't we ? I certainly do.. ..here it is.. here we are talking to each other on opposite sides of the world.. in a blink of an eye we may lose all of that, and everything we have and not even a coat to shelter from sleeping outside... just as they have....


----------



## OneEyedDiva

Irwin said:


> Yep, the Russians laid out exactly what their plans are, and once they've "counterattacked," they'll keep repeating that lie over and over until enough people (see Fox "news") join in and help propagate the lie, as they are wont to do. In fact, Tucker Carlson has already stated that we should be supporting Russia — not Ukraine, in this standoff.


Didn't Carlson walk back that statement after criticism?


----------



## chic

Murrmurr said:


> And it's looking like Putin won't negotiate for anything short of surrender.
> 
> imo, he's digging himself into one deep hole...looking a lot like a grave.


I respectfully disagree. He's been preparing for years to cope with economic sanctions from the West through alliances with China, India and Afghanistan. It's those imposing the sanctions who will suffer. Putin doesn't want a NATO ally perched on his border. This all started back in 2014.  I don't want to get into political details since it's forbidden, but hope Ukraine comes to a peaceful agreement.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Murrmurr said:


> But negotiating will result in Ukraine becoming a puppet of Putin. He would impose martial law and install a new president, one that will do whatever Putin says. The Ukrainians don't want to live like that.
> 
> If no one steps in, Russia will eventually get control of Ukraine, probably within a few weeks. That's why Ukrainian citizens are leaving in droves. In the end, Putin will have control over an under-populated country in complete shambles; buildings, roads, bridges and train tracks destroyed. He can't afford to repair and rebuild, and the EU will be no further away than before, really.


All good points.


----------



## mellowyellow

*Russia threatens to abandon American astronaut in space*

The plan is for astronaut Mark Vande He to land in Kazakhstan with two Russian cosmonauts on a Russian spacecraft.
HOUSTON -- For the past 24 years, the U.S. and Russia have worked together to construct and maintain the International Space Station, where research has led to some of the most important discoveries of the 21st century. Russia has waged a war in Ukraine that's pitted the country against the U.S. and its allies -- leaving the future of the ISS in question…….
https://abc7ny.com/russia-international-space-station-mark-vande-hei-iss-american-astronaut/11639556


----------



## spectratg

I certainly hope that there is an agreed upon Red Line between the Russians and NATO (but mostly U.S.).  Specifically, the line from the bottom of the sea or the land that extends well upward. Their troops or ships or aircraft don't cross it, and we don't either.  If that happens, it could be catastrophic.  As I said on another thread, I remember the Cuban missile crisis.  I think that we are dangerously close to that situation because of a madman.


----------



## Warrigal

chic said:


> I wish the Ukraine would negotiate for peace because if they choose war they will lose.


Negotiations for peace begin with negotiations for ceasefire and humanitarian corridors.
In spite of such negotiations the Russians have demonstrated that their assurances mean nothing.
The Ukrainians could have more to lose from trusting their bellicose neighbour than they will lose by fighting for their independence and freedom.

In the end, history might reveal that Ukraine was Putin's bridge too far that cost him and the Russian people much more than they hoped to gain.


----------



## dseag2

OneEyedDiva said:


> Didn't Carlson walk back that statement after criticism?


I have no idea.  I would rather gouge my eardrums out than listen to anything that sycophant has to say.  He always has the same expression, like he just learned why his mother abandoned him.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Warrigal said:


> Negotiations for peace begin with negotiations for ceasefire and humanitarian corridors.
> In spite of such negotiations the Russians have demonstrated that their assurances mean nothing.
> The Ukrainians could have more to lose from trusting their bellicose neighbour than they will lose by fighting for their independence and freedom.
> 
> In the end, history might reveal that Ukraine was Putin's bridge too far that cost him and the Russian people much more than they hoped to gain.


Well said.


----------



## Murrmurr

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 212594
> 
> *Russia threatens to abandon American astronaut in space*
> 
> The plan is for astronaut Mark Vande He to land in Kazakhstan with two Russian cosmonauts on a Russian spacecraft.
> HOUSTON -- For the past 24 years, the U.S. and Russia have worked together to construct and maintain the International Space Station, where research has led to some of the most important discoveries of the 21st century. Russia has waged a war in Ukraine that's pitted the country against the U.S. and its allies -- leaving the future of the ISS in question…….
> https://abc7ny.com/russia-international-space-station-mark-vande-hei-iss-american-astronaut/11639556


Probably just bluster.

The US is home to a number of Russian rocket scientists who work alongside some very astute natural-born American ones. Also, Putin might take into account that the US military and allies can and may yet intervene in his Ukraine "operation" because technically this invasion was illegal and technically Putin has committed war crimes.

That said, there are _some_ things a president should keep close to the chest.


----------



## Furryanimal

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that a meeting between the presidents of Russia and Ukraine is conceptually possible, but first, the delegations of negotiators and ministers of the two nations must do their part.
That’s according to Interfax, as reported by Ukrinform.

"No one rules out the possibility of a Putin-Zelensky summit. Yes, indeed, conceptually, it is possible, but first delegations and ministers must do their part so that presidents do not meet just for the sake of process and talks, but meet to achieve a result," said Peskov.

He further confirmed the invariability of the previously voiced "positions of the Russian side," adding that Russia "is waiting for counter-formulations."

Earlier, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky repeatedly, in particular after the start of the war, invited Russian President Vladimir Putin to meet for talks


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Furryanimal

ZAGREB, March 11 (Reuters) - A Soviet-era scouting drone flying across Hungary from Ukraine crashed near the Croatian capital of Zagreb, leaving a big hole in the ground, the Croatian government said on Friday.

No deaths or injuries were reported.

An explosion was heard near Lake Jarun in Zagreb at around 11 p.m. on Thursday, Croatian media reported. Two parachutes were found and several vehicles had been damaged, police said.

The drone, flying at 1,300 metres, came from Hungary and crashed seven minutes after entering Croatia's air space, the government said. Both Hungary and Croatia are NATO members.


Croatian President Zoran Milanovic said that according to preliminary information the drone originally came from Ukraine and crashed once it had run out of fuel.

"We estimate that this was an incident and it was not (military action) directed against Croatia," Milanovic said.

Defence Minister Mario Banozic declined to comment on details.

"This was a very serious incident. We will have to investigate it thoroughly," Banozic told press conference.


He said it was unclear whether the drone belonged to Russia or Ukraine. He also declined to say from where the drone could have originated.

"The investigation will reveal further details," he said.

Russia invaded Ukraine two weeks ago. Russian forces bearing down on the capital Kyiv were regrouping northwest of the city, satellite pictures showed, and Britain said Moscow could now be planning an assault within days. read more 


Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said Hungary was closely cooperating with Croatia and other NATO allies over the drone.

"Our authorities are examining what happened, as according to present data, the air space of several NATO members including Hungary was affected by the drone's flight."

Reporting by Antonio Bronic and Krisztina Than; Writing by Ivana Sekularac; Editing by Nick Macfie


----------



## todalake

Murrmurr said:


> But negotiating will result in Ukraine becoming a puppet of Putin. He would impose martial law and install a new president, one that will do whatever Putin says. The Ukrainians don't want to live like that.
> 
> If no one steps in, Russia will eventually get control of Ukraine, probably within a few weeks. That's why Ukrainian citizens are leaving in droves. In the end, Putin will have control over an under-populated country in complete shambles; buildings, roads, bridges and train tracks destroyed. He can't afford to repair and rebuild, and the EU will be no further away than before, really.


Perspective   https://www.oakparkusd.org/cms/lib5/CA01000794/Centricity/Domain/444/Strengths and Weaknesses.2-3.pdf

And who won?????


----------



## todalake

At the entrance to the Kiev Memorial Park there is a sculpture of a very thin girl with an extremely sad look holding several classes of wheat in her hands. Behind her back is the Candle of Remembrance, a monument with details reminiscent of authentic embroidery that can be found on traditional Ukrainian costumes. This is a monument that marks the historical event known as Holodomor (Hladomor). But what is Holodomor and what crime does this monument even symbolize?
At the end of World War I Ukraine was an independent state, but it was governed by the Soviet Union in 1919 "sucked" into the community of Soviet states. Ukrainians, who then considered themselves a Central European nation like Poland, not an Eastern European like the Russians, were trying to restore Ukraine's independence.
Not wanting to lose control of Europe's main grain, Stalin in 1932 resorted to one of the most heinous forms of terror against a nation. In the process of nationalization, he took the grainy land from Ukrainian peasants, and all its yields, creating artificial hunger. The goal was to "teach Ukrainians" so that they would no longer oppose official Moscow. Thus, the nation that produced the most wheat in Europe was left without a crumb of bread. The peak of the Holodomor was in the spring of 1933. In Ukraine, 17 people starved to death every minute, over 1000 every hour, and almost 24500 every day! People were literally starving to death on the streets.
In the emptied Ukrainian villages Stalin settled the Russian population.
During the next census, there was a large population shortage.
Therefore, the Soviet government abolished the census, destroyed the census documentation, and the censusers were shot or sent to gulag, to completely hide the truth.
It was Holodomor during 1932-1933 hunger killed between seven and ten million people, more than Jews in World War II. Their toxic gas was hunger. Their Hitler was Stalin. Their holocaust was Gladomor. For them fascist Berlin was Soviet Moscow, and their concentration camp was the Soviet Union. Today, 28 countries of the world classify the Holodomor as a genocide, and you could not teach about it in school because almost all evidence has been destroyed, and the victim was silenced for decades and had no say until recently.
The Holodomor may have temporarily broken the Ukrainian resistance, but it made the desire for Ukraine's independence from Russia eternal.


----------



## garyt1957

todalake said:


> Perspective   https://www.oakparkusd.org/cms/lib5/CA01000794/Centricity/Domain/444/Strengths and Weaknesses.2-3.pdf
> 
> And who won?????


Not really applicable with today's weapons


----------



## David777

As I posted previously, "..._SeniorForums is a minor web community where whatever we say and think in civil respectful manners is certain to have infinitesimal consequence on that conflict in the same way our comments don't amount to much nationally or globally on anything else. But it does allow each of we American citizens to understand different perspectives of others. That is what my inputs as _*someone with little political interests *_are for, providing a range of perspectives on current events even though they may not reflect the talking points of those with real power or dominant news media. Read my links and make your own decision, you are then welcome to address either pro or con_." 

The following current interview is one of the best describing a European perspective of the conflict from one of the top minds on what is really going on in the minds of policy elites, that one is unlikely to hear from other news media.  She does so honestly, carefully choosing her skilled words that anyone with an intelligent mind will appreciate and be impressed with.  I've now watched it twice.  The link is for the 
DW Conflict Zone contents page that shows a link for the DW Live stream.  

https://www.dw.com/en/conflict-zone/s-101431

This tv schedule page link shows the several times each day (PST so recalculate for your time zone) when the interview is repeated live. 1130 1430 1630 1830
https://www.dw.com/en/schedule-and-reception/s-4757

Latest edition 3/8/2022
Guest: Constanze Stelzenmüller
Tim Sebastian interviews *Constanze Stelzenmülle*r, foreign and security policy expert, Brookings Institution.

This second link below is a dated interview posted 8 years ago March 13, 2014, that is a summary history of the region, intelligently presented without bias, shedding an intelligent summary understanding of perspectives on the several opposing groups through decades, mentioning a list of atrocities, critical of all.

https://newcoldwar.org/the-history-of-right-wing-nationalism-in-ukraine/

Svoboda and the history of Ukrainian nationalism: Part one

_*Per Anders Rudling *is an associate professor of the Department of History at Lund University, specializing on nationalism, the Holocaust, and the far right in the Polish-Ukrainian-Belarusian borderlands..._
-------------------------------------------------------
The below link is an ongoing blog of *Jonathan Cook* critical of the game being played on both sides, one needs to consume with a large grain of salt that nevertheless is quite educational about the media game of elites, making fools of we manipulated peons of the world.

https://newcoldwar.org/the-wests-hands-in-ukraine-are-as-bloody-as-putins/

_...It is a huge ambition for a tiny elite headquartered in the U.S. committed to the endless enrichment of itself by enforcing a binary thinking among Western publics that obscures the real reasons for the planet-wide crises we face. If it succeeds, the West’s war machine will continue trundling over the bodies of the poor and marginalized as it drives us ever faster towards ecological collapse._


----------



## todalake

garyt1957 said:


> Not really applicable with today's weapons


Patriotism is still applicable.   

Quote by *Gabriel Garcia Marquez*: “It is easier to start a war than to end it.”


----------



## hollydolly

...so this is the latest... I hope the Ukrainian government are wrong.. for theirs and for everyone's sake...

_Ukraine has today claimed that Belarus is 'set to invade Ukraine' with Alexander Lukashenko's forces poised to cross the border tonight. 

Kyiv's Centre for Strategic Communications said it could not rule out the possibility following a meeting in Moscow between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Belarusian leader Lukashenko. 

'According to preliminary data, Belarusian troops may be drawn into an invasion on March 11 at 9pm (7pm GMT),' the centre, which was established under the Ministry of Culture and Information Policy, said in a statement. 

The centre urged Belarusians to defy any unlawful orders - including an invasion - and to rise up against Lukashenko. He has so-far refused to get his men involved in the war, after commanders reportedly quit rather than join the fighting. 

Ukraine has also today accused fighter jets of staging a 'false flag' attack on Belarus as a pre-text to getting Alexander Lukashenko's troops involved in the fighting.

Kyiv said two Su-25 bombers crossed the border from Belarus this afternoon, carried out attacks on Ukrainian soil, and then bombed Belarus itself. Defence minister Olexiy Reznikov said the attack was planned by Russia.

'The purpose of this provocation is to force the current leadership of Belarus into war against Ukraine. Moscow is trying to bind you with blood,' he said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Lukashenkos-forces-cross-border-tonight.html
_


----------



## hollydolly

...and further still.. from  the mentality of a madman...

_Putin has placed the head of the FSB's foreign service and his deputy under house arrest after blaming them for intelligence failings that saw his army handed a series of embarrassing defeats in Ukraine, it has been claimed.

Andrey Soldatov, a respected author on the Russian secret services, said sources inside the FSB told him that Sergey Beseda, 68, head of the agency's foreign service, has been placed under arrest on Putin's orders.

Also arrested is Anatoly Bolyukh, Beseda's deputy, according to Soldatov, who said Putin is 'truly unhappy' with the agency - which he ran before becoming president.  






Sergey Orestovich Beseda (pictured) head of the FSB's foreign service, has reportedly been placed under house arrest after the intelligence service took the blame for the war's progress





Anatoly Bolyukh, deputy head of the 5th Service of the Federal Security Service and head of the operational information department, has also reportedly been arrested

Putin is said to blame the agency for intelligence which assured him ahead of the invasion that Russian forces would face only token resistance from the Ukrainian army and that Ukrainians themselves were eager to be rid of their leaders.

 Earlier today, Putin was said to have sacked his top generals and is 'raging' at the FSB after failed intelligence and poor strategy saw his troops handed a series of embarrassing defeats in the opening days of the war in Ukraine.

the organisation did gather good intelligence - but was simply too afraid to tell Putin the truth, instead doctoring their reports to appease him. 

That poor decision making has led to Russia suffering much higher casualties than it expected in its attack, which has now been going on for over two weeks.

It seems Moscow had anticipated little resistance when it sent in light forces backed by airstrikes to seize key targets during the opening days, but was met with punishing counter-attacks.

Reliable numbers are hard to come by, but Ukraine believes Russia has lost up to 12,000 men in a fortnight.

European intelligence puts it lower - between 6,000 and 9,000 - and US lower still, at up to 3,000.

Whichever proves accurate, it is almost certainly more than Putin anticipated when he launched the attack in the hope that fighting would be over in just a few days.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...foreign-intelligence-branch-house-arrest.html_


----------



## Furryanimal

todalake said:


> At the entrance to the Kiev Memorial Park there is a sculpture of a very thin girl with an extremely sad look holding several classes of wheat in her hands. Behind her back is the Candle of Remembrance, a monument with details reminiscent of authentic embroidery that can be found on traditional Ukrainian costumes. This is a monument that marks the historical event known as Holodomor (Hladomor). But what is Holodomor and what crime does this monument even symbolize?
> At the end of World War I Ukraine was an independent state, but it was governed by the Soviet Union in 1919 "sucked" into the community of Soviet states. Ukrainians, who then considered themselves a Central European nation like Poland, not an Eastern European like the Russians, were trying to restore Ukraine's independence.
> Not wanting to lose control of Europe's main grain, Stalin in 1932 resorted to one of the most heinous forms of terror against a nation. In the process of nationalization, he took the grainy land from Ukrainian peasants, and all its yields, creating artificial hunger. The goal was to "teach Ukrainians" so that they would no longer oppose official Moscow. Thus, the nation that produced the most wheat in Europe was left without a crumb of bread. The peak of the Holodomor was in the spring of 1933. In Ukraine, 17 people starved to death every minute, over 1000 every hour, and almost 24500 every day! People were literally starving to death on the streets.
> In the emptied Ukrainian villages Stalin settled the Russian population.
> During the next census, there was a large population shortage.
> Therefore, the Soviet government abolished the census, destroyed the census documentation, and the censusers were shot or sent to gulag, to completely hide the truth.
> It was Holodomor during 1932-1933 hunger killed between seven and ten million people, more than Jews in World War II. Their toxic gas was hunger. Their Hitler was Stalin. Their holocaust was Gladomor. For them fascist Berlin was Soviet Moscow, and their concentration camp was the Soviet Union. Today, 28 countries of the world classify the Holodomor as a genocide, and you could not teach about it in school because almost all evidence has been destroyed, and the victim was silenced for decades and had no say until recently.
> The Holodomor may have temporarily broken the Ukrainian resistance, but it made the desire for Ukraine's independence from Russia eternal.


It was a Welshman,Gareth Jones,who brought Holodomor to the worlds attention.
They made a film about him.Available to rent on you tube.
He met a sticky end..believed to have been perpetrated by the Russians.


----------



## todalake

garyt1957 said:


> Not really applicable with today's weapons


Oh yea,  I forgot that Afghanistan/Taliban had better weapons than the Russians or United States.   Donkeys are far superior than F-15s and Apache helicopters.


----------



## Paco Dennis

German Parliamentarian: ‘Peace Can Only Exist with Russia, Not Against Russia’​


----------



## hollydolly

Wonder what these sycophantic celebrities are thinking of Putin now...


----------



## Pepper

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT????????? @hollydolly 
Do you have background on that, like what year it was; what was it for?  
I..........suddenly I feel sick.  And very sad.


----------



## hollydolly

Pepper said:


> WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT????????? @hollydolly
> Do you have background on that, like what year it was; what was it for?
> I..........suddenly I feel sick.  And very sad.


I know, it makes your skin crawl doesn't it ?..well it does mine ..

Have you never seen that before Pepper?. I thought everyone in the US was aware of this video, I've known about it for a couple of years..... here's more about it...

https://www.indy100.com/politics/putin-sing-blueberry-hill


----------



## Mike

The latest from Russia, according to the news reports here,
is, the USA with the UK and Ukraine are making weapons of
mass destruction, inside Ukraine.

"Chemical Weapons", he gave them to Assad in Syria, Russia
never used/fired them, they only made them, I hope that he
never gets Belarus to do the dirty work and send inhuman
weapons across the border.

The electricity is also cut off to Chernoble, this prevents the
pumps to cool the plant down and there will be another bad
contamination of a lot of Europe and Russia!

Does he care?

This is all reported on the TV news.

Mike.


----------



## Pepper

2010 it was, @hollydolly   I don't remember hating him then.  Not even sure I was wary of him in 2010.  When the Soviet Union first fell I had hopes for Russia.  One of our neighbors in New Hampshire was moving to Moscow to manage a MacDonald's, I thought that was enviable.  Being the early '90's, I guess it was rewarding and adventurous.

Sigh.  What finally hurt his massive ego, I wonder, or I guess it was his plan from the start.  I can say no more.  I'd like to know if his parents loved him.  Not that that makes any difference.  Just babbling. The whole thing is so horrible.

It's a good thing I'm not allowed to say what my Ukrainian neighbors think.  You'd wonder if they are the most stupid people who ever breathed free air.


----------



## hollydolly

Pepper said:


> 2010 it was, @hollydolly   I don't remember hating him then.  Not even sure I was wary of him in 2010.  When the Soviet Union first fell I had hopes for Russia.  One of our neighbors in New Hampshire was moving to Moscow to manage a MacDonald's, I thought that was enviable.  Being the early '90's, I guess it was rewarding and adventurous.
> 
> Sigh.  What finally hurt his massive ego, I wonder, or I guess it was his plan from the start.  I can say no more.  I'd like to know if his parents loved him.  Not that that makes any difference.  Just babbling. The whole thing is so horrible.
> 
> It's a good thing I'm not allowed to say what my Ukrainian neighbors think.  You'd wonder if they are the most stupid people who ever breathed free air.


I didn't hate him then either ...not that I saw that video in 2010, but a couple of years ago when I did d see it.. still didn't hate him, but it made my skin crawl to watch those showbiz sycophants.. it did then and it does even more so today...


----------



## hollydolly

@Pepper , this might answer your question with regard to Putin's childhood 

https://acestoohigh.com/2022/03/02/how-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all/


----------



## Pepper

The link you provided was amazing @hollydolly 
I hope everyone who sees it reads it.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

dseag2 said:


> I have no idea.  I would rather gouge my eardrums out than listen to anything that sycophant has to say.  He always has the same expression, like he just learned why his mother abandoned him.
> 
> View attachment 212601


Oh I don't watch that crap but I thought I read it in one of my news feeds last week. I was surprised that any American would side with Russia...but guess I shouldn't have been (and you know why).


----------



## Murrmurr

todalake said:


> Perspective   https://www.oakparkusd.org/cms/lib5/CA01000794/Centricity/Domain/444/Strengths and Weaknesses.2-3.pdf
> 
> And who won?????


I don't know; that's a pdf and I don't want to download it, sorry.

What's it say?


----------



## mellowyellow

Anyone old enough to remember the movie The Dirty Dozen?

_To replenish the forces waging war against the Ukrainian people, the Russian occupiers are now recruiting convicted prisoners in correctional facilities. *Source:* General Staff of the Armed Forces.   The convicts are being offered the chance to join the occupying forces in exchange for an amnesty. The Russian Armed forces will accept everyone, even those who have no experience in military service."_


----------



## Warrigal

@mellowyellow Heard on the news this morning that Putin is calling for foreign volunteers to come and assist in Ukraine. Probably aimed at Syrians skilled at street fighting. al Asaad owes him big time.

If the mighty Russian army isn't up to the task he is in big trouble. Could it be his army is not on side with war crimes so he is turning to mercenaries to do the dirty work?

I reckon this move will not be revealed to the Russian civilians back home.


----------



## todalake

Murrmurr said:


> I don't know; that's a pdf and I don't want to download it, sorry.
> 
> What's it say?


Basically the Americans were against a superior force both in terms of numbers of soldiers,  experience,  and equipment.   But determination won out for Americans.   Called the Revolutionary War.


----------



## Murrmurr

todalake said:


> Basically the Americans were against a superior force both in terms of numbers of soldiers,  experience,  and equipment.   But determination won out for Americans.   Called the Revolutionary War.


Thank you


----------



## hollydolly

As I said already we in the Uk are set to have our already high  utility bills rise 54 % on the 1st of April which will mean the average households' energy bill will rise by approx £1700 annually ... and we're already affected by sky high petrol and diesel  prices, which is not only troubling us at the pumps, but in many other ways. Produce growers are having to throw away tons of stock because they now can't afford to heat the greenhouses, so Peppers, cucumbers et al are being dumped..

metal prices have shot up in price, making car repairs and the price even of metal needed for canning food has shot up...which ultimately means higher prices for the consumer, even if the products are available..

Today Andrew Neil a very respected journalist  in the Daily mail says this..


_Russia and Ukraine supply 30 per cent of the world’s wheat exports, 20 per cent of corn exports and 80 per cent of sunflower oil exports. 

As these supplies are disrupted, there’s a global food crisis in the making.

You can already see its first manifestations. Countries as different as Serbia and Indonesia have barred exports of grain and cooking oils, thus making global shortages worse.

Flour is now being rationed across the Middle East, especially in Egypt, which relies on Russia and Ukraine for 80 per cent of its wheat.

There is panic buying of sunflower oil in Turkey, where it is widely used for cooking.

Nor is this situation likely to get better any time soon. There will be precious few seeds sown this spring in Ukraine’s rich, black soil.

And the consequences of this will soon be seen in your local supermarket, where food prices are set to soar.

This is a particularly cruel cost-of-living crisis because it involves the biggest price rises in things we can’t do without.

Heating your home and putting food on the table are not discretionary spending or optional extras. The scope for belt-tightening is strictly limited when prices start to soar. You just have to pay up.

That’s why it’s especially painful for less well-off households, which already spend a large chunk of their after-tax income on fuel and food. Some simply won’t have the cash to afford the rising prices.


But the brutal manner in which Russia is fighting the war means Putin will be a global pariah for the foreseeable future. Sanctions will be impossible to end when we’ll be calling for his arrest as a war criminal. 

Which, in turn, means high energy prices are here to stay. Even if the war results in sensible changes to our absurd energy policies and obsession with net-zero, they will bring no short-term relief.

Households could face astronomic fuel bills and the repayment of their loans in 2023. 


_


----------



## Furryanimal

A warning from History....


https://inews.co.uk/opinion/demonis...n=i Editor's Choice 12/03/2022&utm_term=inews


----------



## hollydolly

Amazon has now suspended indefinitely all orders from or deliveries to Russia...


----------



## Ruthanne

My God what a mess over there!  Why can't they communicate and try to get along...l know a person can't communicate with war tanks but why were there no talks before these past 3 weeks... or why did they stop communicating....geez.  Very sad and terrible


----------



## hollydolly

Talk about Brave ?... how terrifying tho' this would be if it happened to any of us..

 Russian soldiers sent packing by elderly couple after breaking into their home..


----------



## hollydolly

A Ukrainian Man's Russian Father, did not believe his son when he called to tell him Russia was at war with Ukraine... this is just hard to even credit that there are millions of Adult Russians who are not aware there's a war going on..instead they believe that Russia is saving Ukraine from the Nazi regime..

watch the video...to see the Interview with the Son on his father's response to learning about the war


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## Paco Dennis

Paco Dennis said:


>


I am angry also...those lies Collin told the American people caused one hell of a war and loss of life.Why is the world wanting to supply more massive weapons to the Ukraine knowing that the outcome will be thousands of more deaths?  DIPLOMACY!


Over *929,000* people have died in the post-9/11 wars due to direct war violence, and several times as many due to the reverberating effects of war
Over *387,000 civilians* have been killed as a result of the fighting
*38 million *— the number of war refugees and displaced persons
The US federal price tag for the post-9/11 wars is over *$8 trillion *
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in *85 countries*
The wars have been accompanied by violations of human rights and civil liberties, in the U.S. and abroad


----------



## Jackie23

I am watching Ali Velshi on MSNBC live this morning reporting the refugees, mostly women and children, getting off a train in Hungary.....absolutely heart wrenching.


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## Warrigal

todalake said:


> Basically the Americans were against a superior force both in terms of numbers of soldiers,  experience,  and equipment.   But determination won out for Americans.   Called the Revolutionary War.


I think there was some help from the French?


----------



## hollydolly

_Putin... is possibly  suffering from a brain disorder caused by dementia, Parkinson’s disease or ‘roid rage’ resulting from steroid treatment for cancer, intelligence sources have claimed.

Citing sources close to the Kremlin, senior figures in the Five Eyes intelligence alliance – comprising Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States – believe there is a physiological explanation for the Russian president’s globally reviled decision to invade Ukraine.

The intelligence community is sharing a growing number of reports about 69-year-old Putin’s ‘increasingly erratic behaviour’, combined with a bloated appearance in recent footage – and the absurd distance he insists on keeping from visitors to the Kremlin.

A security source said: ‘It is only human sources that can offer you the sort of rich picture that we have of Putin’s psyche.

‘There has been an identifiable change in his decision-making over the past five years or so. Those around him see a marked change in the cogency and clarity of what he says and how he perceives the world around him.’

The source said this failure to think clearly was being compounded by the lack of a ‘negative feedback loop’, with the Russian leader ‘simply not being briefed’ on elements of failures with the invasion.

It has been reported that Putin had placed Sergey Beseda, the head of the FSB’s foreign service, and his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh, under house arrest after blaming them for intelligence failings that saw his army handed a series of defeats in Ukraine. 

The intelligence, which is understood to have been passed to senior British political figures, suggests that Putin has suffered a psychological deterioration caused by physiological factors.

They advance theories that Putin is either suffering from a brain condition, such as Parkinson’s disease or a more generic form of dementia, or that he has cancer and the medical treatment he is receiving has altered the balance of his mind.

The last theory, which is considered credible by British intelligence, is that the mental deterioration is the consequence of so-called ‘roid rage’, caused by the prolonged use of steroids.

Sources cite Putin’s decision to physically isolate himself from guests as a sign of a fear of ‘co-morbidities’ – other serious medical conditions that could increase the risk of death – or the use of drugs which suppress the immune system, leaving him open to infections. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-suggest-bloated-appearance-drugs-effect.html_


----------



## Ruthanne

hollydolly said:


> _Putin... is possibly  suffering from a brain disorder caused by dementia, Parkinson’s disease or ‘roid rage’ resulting from steroid treatment for cancer, intelligence sources have claimed.
> 
> Citing sources close to the Kremlin, senior figures in the Five Eyes intelligence alliance – comprising Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States – believe there is a physiological explanation for the Russian president’s globally reviled decision to invade Ukraine.
> 
> The intelligence community is sharing a growing number of reports about 69-year-old Putin’s ‘increasingly erratic behaviour’, combined with a bloated appearance in recent footage – and the absurd distance he insists on keeping from visitors to the Kremlin.
> 
> A security source said: ‘It is only human sources that can offer you the sort of rich picture that we have of Putin’s psyche.
> 
> ‘There has been an identifiable change in his decision-making over the past five years or so. Those around him see a marked change in the cogency and clarity of what he says and how he perceives the world around him.’
> 
> The source said this failure to think clearly was being compounded by the lack of a ‘negative feedback loop’, with the Russian leader ‘simply not being briefed’ on elements of failures with the invasion.
> 
> It has been reported that Putin had placed Sergey Beseda, the head of the FSB’s foreign service, and his deputy, Anatoly Bolyukh, under house arrest after blaming them for intelligence failings that saw his army handed a series of defeats in Ukraine.
> 
> The intelligence, which is understood to have been passed to senior British political figures, suggests that Putin has suffered a psychological deterioration caused by physiological factors.
> 
> They advance theories that Putin is either suffering from a brain condition, such as Parkinson’s disease or a more generic form of dementia, or that he has cancer and the medical treatment he is receiving has altered the balance of his mind.
> 
> The last theory, which is considered credible by British intelligence, is that the mental deterioration is the consequence of so-called ‘roid rage’, caused by the prolonged use of steroids.
> 
> Sources cite Putin’s decision to physically isolate himself from guests as a sign of a fear of ‘co-morbidities’ – other serious medical conditions that could increase the risk of death – or the use of drugs which suppress the immune system, leaving him open to infections.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-suggest-bloated-appearance-drugs-effect.html_


Wow.  I'm hearing more and more as this crisis unfolds.  Yes, he could have serious conditions but I guess the question is is it affecting his thinking and judgement.  It can be hard to tell if it's that or if he is just terribly cruel.  Only God knows I fear.


----------



## hollydolly

Ruthanne said:


> Wow.  I'm hearing more and more as this crisis unfolds.  Yes, he could have serious conditions but I guess the question is is it affecting his thinking and judgement.  It can be hard to tell if it's that or if he is just terribly cruel.  Only God knows I fear.


Certainly if he's taking steroid medication , it can alter the workings of your mind.. and if it's true he's taking them for a Cancer, then they'll be very strong, and would also account for his added weight.

I remember when I was on prednisone.. which is a steroid..not only did I gain weight but I was angry all the time...


----------



## Ruthanne

hollydolly said:


> Certainly if he's taking steroid medication , it can alter the workings of your mind.. and if it's true he's taking them for a Cancer, then they'll be very strong, and would also account for his added weight.
> 
> I remember when I was on prednisone.. which is a steroid..not only did I gain weight but I was angry all the time...


I agree it can alter the workings of the mind but to what extreme with him is a question.  I have been on steroids too and they did not make me angry.  Being angry a lot and invading a country and killing thousands is another story that needs to be determined.  And yes he has a lot of power, too, I just say it's hard to tell exactly what to pinpoint in his physiological psychology.  I agree that it can be one or two or even three of many of the hypothesis put forth here.  Who can really say for sure?  Let's just hope that somehow he is made to stop this madness of the invasion,


----------



## Sunny

I think he is a raving nut case, the likes of which we haven't seen (as a head of state) since Adolph Hitler. He will bring incredible devastation upon Europe before he is stopped. And maybe not only Europe.


----------



## David777

One of the top EU officials just publicly admitted in a key meeting Thursday they made mistakes leading to the invasion instead of allowing neutrality, I've mentioned in several posts with links.  Shows the EU leaders have been discussing the obvious and one can guess militarists overuled pragmatists during discussions before conflict began. Probably also why Zelenski also has changed his narrative.  Lets hope both sides quickly move to the end game before more horrible loss occurs.

https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...-mistake-in-promising-ukraine-nato-membership

snippet:

_The West made a mistake by promising Ukraine NATO membership, High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Josep Borrell (Spanish) said. 

“I am ready to admit that we made a number of mistakes and that we lost the possibility of Russia’s rapprochement with the West," he said in an interview with LCI TV channel. "There are moments that we could do better, there are things that we proposed and then could not implement, such as, for example, the promise that Ukraine and Georgia will become part of NATO." "I think it's a mistake to make promises that you can't keep,” Borrell added. "Thus, we lost the opportunity to bring Russia closer to the West in order to deter it," he said._


----------



## mellowyellow

Two nights ago, Russian state TV viewers were told





Source: Steve Rosenberg BBC Twitter


----------



## hollydolly

mellowyellow said:


> Two nights ago, Russian state TV viewers were told
> 
> 
> View attachment 212966
> 
> 
> Source: Steve Rosenberg BBC Twitter


yes I read that from various sources that Putin is informing the Russian people that he's sent the army into Ukraine to save the people from a Nazi regime... ..and the Russian people believe him...


----------



## AnnieA

David777 said:


> One of the top EU officials just publicly admitted in a key meeting Thursday they made mistakes leading to the invasion instead of allowing neutrality, I've mentioned in several posts with links.  Shows the EU leaders have been discussing the obvious and one can guess militarists overuled pragmatists during discussions before conflict began. Probably also why Zelenski also has changed his narrative.  Lets hope both sides quickly move to the end game before more horrible loss occurs.
> 
> https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/...-mistake-in-promising-ukraine-nato-membership
> 
> snippet:
> 
> _The West made a mistake by promising Ukraine NATO membership, High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Josep Borrell (Spanish) said.
> 
> “I am ready to admit that we made a number of mistakes and that we lost the possibility of Russia’s rapprochement with the West," he said in an interview with LCI TV channel. "There are moments that we could do better, there are things that we proposed and then could not implement, such as, for example, the promise that Ukraine and Georgia will become part of NATO." "I think it's a mistake to make promises that you can't keep,” Borrell added. "Thus, we lost the opportunity to bring Russia closer to the West in order to deter it," he said._



You keep posting about neutrality, but NATO *did* promise Ukraine membership in 2008 so that ship sailed regardless of who might now regret it. The neutrality thing as a "buffer" doesn't make sense on several levels since Russia already shares borders with four NATO countries. And speaking of buffers, Putin shouldn't need them post Cold War. Since 1991, who has attacked Russia? No one. The problem is that Putin is at core still a Soviet and has fantasies of restoring parts of it that he thinks of as some sort of 'True Russia' ...unfortunately for Ukraine, they're high on his list.


----------



## AnnieA

hollydolly said:


> yes I read that from various sources that Putin is informing the Russian people that he's sent the army into Ukraine to save the people from a Nazi regime... ..and the Russian people believe him...



Putin is referring to the Azov Battalion--a far right neo-Nazi regiment in the Ukranian National Guard. Their badge is swastika inspired.  They seem to be doing well under the leadership of their Jewish President Zelenskyy.  War and strange bedfellows....   How Putin can sell Zelenskyy's regime as Nazi given that he actually is Jewish is a bit of a stretch despite the existence of the--thankfully, minority--Azov Batallion.







Their helmet emblems aren't even a twist on the swastika ...they flat out are the same swastika and SS runic insignia.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

AnnieA said:


> but NATO *did* promise Ukraine membership in 2008


If it so wanted, which it appeared to do in 2017, after a previous reversal. At no time has NATO presented Ukraine with an action plan, which is the norm.
How is it a requirement of a sovereign nation, such as Ukraine to request permission of Russia for such a move?


----------



## AnnieA

Harry Le Hermit said:


> If it so wanted, which it appeared to do in 2017, after a previous reversal. At no time has NATO presented Ukraine with an action plan, which is the norm.
> How is it a requirement of a sovereign nation, such as Ukraine to request permission of Russia for such a move?



My reply was to @David777 .  It isn't a requirement that Ukraine ask _anyone_, nor that anyone "allow neutrality" on their behalf as David seems to think is the answer.  Or as he said in Post 217 "Declare at least for a near period Ukraine _NEUTRAL_, free of NATO and weapons"... Allow??? Declare??? The West shouldn't have the power those words suggest. It's up to Ukraine to decide those things.


----------



## mellowyellow

_At the NATO Summit in June, Ukraine’s President Zelensky called on President Biden to give a clear ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to his country’s request for a Membership. Zelensky added that Ukraine was more ready than most EU countries were to join NATO. But President Biden responded that *‘school’s out’ on whether Ukraine had made enough progress in eradicating corruption* and fulfilling other criteria to enter the Alliance. Moreover, he stated that the issue depended not only on him, but also on the other Allies…….._
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ukraines-unrealistic-nato-bid


----------



## AnnieA

mellowyellow said:


> https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ukraines-unrealistic-nato-bid



Excellent link.  So Ukraine had no hope for true alliance with the West. ...Aid ...we'll give that here and there... but not formal alliance for fear of pushing Putin too far.  Only Putin got tired of watching the West flirt with Ukraine, no matter that we never meant marriage.

“The United States aids Ukraine and her people so that we can fight Russia over there so we don’t have to fight Russia here.”

.


----------



## Furryanimal

March 13 (Reuters) - Ukrainian officials negotiating with their Russian counterparts are to ensure direct talks between the countries' leaders that could lead to bringing peace, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said late on Sunday.

The next round of the talks on the war in Ukraine between the two neighbors is scheduled for early Monday, via video links. Although officials have been giving upbeat assessments lately, positive results of the negotiations are yet to come. read more 


Ukraine has repeatedly called for direct talks between Zelenskiy and Russian President Vladimir Putin, pointing to the Russian leader as the one making all final decisions.

"Our delegation has a clear task - to do everything to ensure a meeting of the presidents. The meeting that I am sure people are waiting for," Zelenskiy said in his daily video address.

"Obviously this is a difficult story. A hard path. But this path is needed. And our goal is for Ukraine to get the necessary result in this struggle, in this negotiation work. Necessary for peace. And for security."


Russia has said previously that the Kremlin would not refuse such a meeting to discuss "specific" issues, but there have been no further details.


----------



## Lavinia

I don't understand the UK's stance on the refugees. It seems that white-skinned women and children are considered a security risk, while fit young men from the Middle East are not (I'm referring of course to the people coming across in little boats, the majority of which are men of fighting age).


----------



## Furryanimal

What should one read into this?


Ukrainian President @ZelenskyyUa, who was due to address the @CoE Assembly at midday today, was unable to speak due to "very urgent, unforeseen circumstances" – but it's hoped that Ukrainian Prime Minister @Denys_Shmyhal will be able to speak via video-link at 16h CET today… pic.twitter.com/11NBq9JIp7

— PACE (@PACE_News) March 14, 2022
Mr Zelensky is expected to address US Congress on Wednesday, US Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in a joint letter to US lawmakers.

It comes as a fresh round of talks between Kyiv and Moscow to end the war in Ukraine have been “temporarily interrupted”, adviser to the Head of the Office of Mr Zelensky, Mykhailo Podoliak, said. But he added that negotiations, which Mr Zelensky recently said would focus on him getting a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, would continue.


----------



## AnnieA

Jackie23 said:


> Looks like Russians are being told to tune in Tucker and Fox News.....hahaha
> 
> 
> 
> Leaked Kremlin memo urges Russian media to promote 'essential' Tucker Carlson​According to a report from Mother Jones editor David Corn, a leaked memo from a Russian government division called the Department of Information and Telecommunications Support is urging state media personalities and producers to hype up comments made by Fox News host Tucker Carlson.
> 
> [link:https://www.rawstory.com/tucker-carlson-2656948870/|



You laughed, but did you research why?  I did because I wondered why him and not other Fox hosts.  Mostly I read about what he's been saying about Ukraine instead of actually  watching him (for the sake of my sanity) and what I found wasn't the quick ..."Oh, it's Fox" that I expected.  You can certainly find the superficial "Fox News" reasons the Kremlin promotes him if that's where you want to stop ...there's a clip of soundbites that I think HuffPost compiled which does just that. But after hours of reading ...and the necessary evil of watching a few of his clips, I found it goes far beyond that.   He's saying exactly what Jacobin and Salon are printing ...that this is a conflict that what Carlson calls "Permanent Washington" (comprised of both parties) has fomented and wants to escalate.   In Carlson's coverage of the US's actively steering conditions to provoke this current Ukraine invasion, there are some really great soundbites for Russian state run media.

Jacobin article:

A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War

Salon:  ( Article about the high priestess of what Carlson calls Permanent Washington. She's part of the current administration, but she --like most Permanent Washington--transcends party lines and has worked in the administrations of both parties.)

Who is Victoria Nuland?

It's summed up in this sentence that has been expressed before it was stated in this link below:
​“The United States aids Ukraine and her people so that we can fight Russia over there so we don’t have to fight Russia here.”



.
​


----------



## Ruthanne

I heard on TV last night that Russia is going to ask China for military help.  I hope China refuses!


----------



## David777

Thanks @AnnieA for those most informative links that I had not yet tracked down, though one needs to take such essays with a grain of salt.  Have noticed Google Search has this last week been increasingly removing such search hits that reflect differently than the talking points being pushed.  

Militaristic war mongers of the world on all sides, YOU will be eventually exposed in this Internet era.


----------



## AnnieA

David777 said:


> Thanks @AnnieA for those most informative links that I had not yet tracked down, though one needs to take such essays with a grain of salt.  Have noticed Google Search has this last week been increasingly removing such search hits that reflect differently than the talking points being pushed.
> 
> Militaristic war mongers of the world on all sides, YOU will be eventually exposed in this Internet era.



You're welcome.  I tried to pick two that had hyperlinks to other sources and/or easily verifiable info rather than op-ed type pieces.

As for the war mongers exposed ...it's out there for people who want to delve deeper than the superficial mainstream media and the MSM counter sources.   For people who sit and get their news spoonfed on TV or their "trusted sources"  ...there's not a lot of hope there.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeopleDieInside/comments/tdxgcy


----------



## Murrmurr

Chris P Bacon said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeopleDieInside/comments/tdxgcy


Maybe this whole thing could have been prevented if someone would have just taken that leap.


----------



## Ruthanne

Ruthanne said:


> I heard on TV last night that Russia is going to ask China for military help.  I hope China refuses!


----------



## Murrmurr

Ruthanne said:


> I heard on TV last night that Russia is going to ask China for military help.  I hope China refuses!


That puts China in a bad position because the CCP doesn't want the kind of sanctions that the west has put on Russia. These sanctions are serious (finally). They hit Putin's oligarchs and minions really hard, and Xi has a harem full of oligarchs and minions himself. He's up for re-election this year and his harem's votes decide the election. The people don't vote for the president.


----------



## JimBob1952

AnnieA said:


> You laughed, but did you research why?  I did because I wondered why him and not other Fox hosts.  Mostly I read about what he's been saying about Ukraine instead of actually  watching him (for the sake of my sanity) and what I found wasn't the quick ..."Oh, it's Fox" that I expected.  You can certainly find the superficial "Fox News" reasons the Kremlin promotes him if that's where you want to stop ...there's a clip of soundbites that I think HuffPost compiled which does just that. But after hours of reading ...and the necessary evil of watching a few of his clips, I found it goes far beyond that.   He's saying exactly what Jacobin and Salon are printing ...that this is a conflict that what Carlson calls "Permanent Washington" (comprised of both parties) has fomented and wants to escalate.   In Carlson's coverage of the US's actively steering conditions to provoke this current Ukraine invasion, there are some really great soundbites for Russian state run media.
> 
> Jacobin article:
> 
> A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
> 
> Salon:  ( Article about the high priestess of what Carlson calls Permanent Washington. She's part of the current administration, but she --like most Permanent Washington--transcends party lines and has worked in the administrations of both parties.)
> 
> Who is Victoria Nuland?
> 
> It's summed up in this sentence that has been expressed before it was stated in this link below:
> ​“The United States aids Ukraine and her people so that we can fight Russia over there so we don’t have to fight Russia here.”
> 
> 
> 
> .
> ​


Consider your sources.  Jacobin Magazine is a socialist publication with a Marxist perspective.  (Wikipedia's description, not mine.)  The Victoria Nuland article was written by Medea Benjamin, the founder of Code Pink, who hates democratic capitalism with a passion.  They aren't presenting facts, just propaganda aimed at hurting the West.  And Tucker Carlson is just weird (I think it may be a tumor.)


----------



## AnnieA

JimBob1952 said:


> Consider your sources.  Jacobin Magazine is a socialist publication with a Marxist perspective.  (Wikipedia's description, not mine.)  The Victoria Nuland article was written by Medea Benjamin, the founder of Code Pink, who hates democratic capitalism with a passion.  They aren't presenting facts, just propaganda aimed at hurting the West.  And Tucker Carlson is just weird (I think it may be a tumor.)



I know how to analyze sources by content and specifically chose those knowing their descriptions to show that there are people with wildly different worldviews--Carlson and the far left--who are saying the same thing.   To label a source credible or not credible without analyzing content is intellectually lazy.  I could care less who describes a source as reliable or not reliable; I read content, then research beyond that to verify or disprove it.

In this case, there's no need for propaganda to hurt the West ...at least the US... because the facts of past involvement in Ukraine are doing it just fine.


----------



## mellowyellow

A Lockheed Martin F-35 aircraft is seen at the ILA Air Show in Berlin, Germany, April 25, 2018. REUTERS/Axel Schmidt/File Photo

_BERLIN, March 14 (Reuters) - Germany will buy 35 U.S. F-35 fighter jets to replace its ageing Tornado, it said on Monday, announcing a first big defence deal since Chancellor Olaf Scholz pledged a 100-billion-euro upgrade to the military in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine._


----------



## Furryanimal

Ukraine’s president said late on Monday night that negotiations with Russia had been “pretty good” as he said further talks between the two sides were planned for Tuesday....


----------



## AnnieA

The lunatics are running the Kremlin Asylum  ...there's everyday no question of that.  Now they want Alaska back.  I would laugh if it weren't so scary how unhinged the Russian leaders are currently.

He [Duma member Oleg Matveychev] continued, 'The return of all Russian properties, those of the Russian empire, the Soviet Union and current Russia, which has been seized in the United States, and so on.' Solovyov asked if the lawmaker specifically meant Alaska and the former Russian settlement of Fort Ross, California. 'That was my next point. As well as the Antarctic,' Matveychev said. 'We discovered it, so it belongs to us.'


----------



## Murrmurr

AnnieA said:


> The lunatics are running the Kremlin Asylum  ...there's everyday no question of that.  Now they want Alaska back.  I would laugh if it weren't so scary how unhinged the Russian leaders are currently.
> 
> He continued, 'The return of all Russian properties, those of the Russian empire, the Soviet Union and current Russia, which has been seized in the United States, and so on.' Solovyov asked if the lawmaker specifically meant Alaska and the former Russian settlement of Fort Ross, California. 'That was my next point. As well as the Antarctic,' Matveychev said. 'We discovered it, so it belongs to us.'


Annie, if that bottom part is a link, it's not working; goes to black.


----------



## AnnieA

Murrmurr said:


> Annie, if that bottom part is a link, it's not working; goes to black.


Thanks.  Trying again and will fix that one.

link re Alaska.

.


----------



## Becky1951

Murrmurr said:


> Annie, if that bottom part is a link, it's not working; goes to black.


It worked for me.


----------



## Murrmurr

AnnieA said:


> Thanks.  Trying again and will fix that one.
> 
> link re Alaska.
> 
> .


Still a no.

I tried searching it and only found old articles, the newest dated Aug 2021. I'll keep nosing around.


----------



## Becky1951

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ATIONS-sanctions-public-hangings-Ukraine.html

Russian state TV calls for REPARATIONS from the US over sanctions: Putin's lapdogs demand return of 'Alaska and California's Fort Ross', threaten nuclear strikes on US, and call for public hangings in Ukraine​


----------



## Murrmurr

Becky1951 said:


> It worked for me.


huh

I'll keep trying it.


----------



## Murrmurr

Becky1951 said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ATIONS-sanctions-public-hangings-Ukraine.html


Feeling those sanctions, apparently.


----------



## AnnieA

The old Soviets and the old Neocons (who have pulled the strings of willing puppets since the 80s for all but four scary years) are determined to get their showdown before they leave this Earth and apparently don't mind taking Her and us with them.


----------



## Tish

@Murrmurr, I swear the more sanctions the west put's out on him, the meaner he gets.
He couldn't give a rats@ss about sanctions, he has lived with them for over 20 years and now.
He is just waiting for an opportunity to attack the west.


----------



## Murrmurr

AnnieA said:


> The old Soviets and the old American Neocons (who have pulled the strings of willing puppets since the 80s for all but four scary years) are determined to get their showdown before they leave this Earth and apparently don't mind taking Her and us with them.


Looks that way. 

US military and intelligence have been fractured and basically snoozing since the wall came down, Soviet side has struggled economically but probably got more support from the CCP than we're aware of ...because we been snoozing. I'm afraid we aren't prepared for what could go down.


----------



## Murrmurr

Tish said:


> @Murrmurr, I swear the more sanctions the west put's out on him, the meaner he gets.
> He couldn't give a rats@ss about sanctions, he has lived with them for over 20 years and now.
> He is just waiting for an opportunity to attack the west.


True about waiting for an opportunity to attack the west.. His upper echelon are far more concerned about the sanctions. That could get interesting. I wonder if they would go as far as an assassination?


----------



## AnnieA

Tish said:


> @Murrmurr, I swear the more sanctions the west put's out on him, the meaner he gets.
> He couldn't give a rats@ss about sanctions, he has lived with them for over 20 years and now.
> He is just waiting for an opportunity to attack the west.



One Russian born journalist (Julia Ioffe) with a Princeton degree in history with an emphasis in Soviet history --I posted about her in a PBS thread several days ago-- thinks there are three or four running the show and that Putin is the most sane of them all.

(edited to add Putin in the total number)


----------



## Murrmurr

AnnieA said:


> One Russian born journalist with degrees in Russian and Soviet history --I posted about her in a PBS thread several days ago-- thinks there are two or three running the show and that Putin is the most sane of the three.


So, an assassination is within the realm of possibilities.


----------



## Tish

AnnieA said:


> One Russian born journalist with Princeton degrees in Russian and Soviet history --I posted about her in a PBS thread several days ago-- thinks there are two or three running the show and that Putin is the most sane of the three.


Good God in heaven, we are well and properly screwed


----------



## Tish

Murrmurr said:


> I wonder if they would go as far as an assassination?


So praying for that.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

There seems to be an assumption that things would be better if Putin were to somehow leave office and that democracy and western style thinking would reign throughout. 

While he might be surrounded with "yes" men, it is not inconceivable that one or more have a substantial thirst for power and after saying yes, yes and yes, might see (and have helped create) a weakened Putin and therefore an opening to seize that power. Not exactly someone having moral scruples in my opinion.


----------



## AnnieA

Harry Le Hermit said:


> There seems to be an assumption that things would be better if Putin were to somehow leave office and that democracy and western style thinking would reign throughout.
> 
> While he might be surrounded with "yes" men, it is not inconceivable that one or more have a substantial thirst for power and after saying yes, yes and yes, might see (and have helped create) a weakened Putin and therefore an opening to seize that power. Not exactly someone having moral scruples in my opinion.



I'm beginning to think he's never been at it totally alone.  Just like our leaders have since the 80s (with one exception) have had puppet masters, he has as well ...or at least a circle of a few who rule together with him.


----------



## Murrmurr

Harry Le Hermit said:


> There seems to be an assumption that things would be better if Putin were to somehow leave office and that democracy and western style thinking would reign throughout.
> 
> While he might be surrounded with "yes" men, it is not inconceivable that one or more have a substantial thirst for power and after saying yes, yes and yes, might see (and have helped create) a weakened Putin and therefore an opening to seize that power. Not exactly someone having moral scruples in my opinion.


I agree. I don't assume a Putin assassination or arrest would improve the situation. But I do assume it's a possibility.


----------



## Jules

AnnieA said:


> One Russian born journalist (Julia Ioffe) with Princeton degrees in Russian and in Soviet history --I posted about her in a PBS thread several days ago-- thinks there are three or four running the show and that Putin is the most sane of them all.
> 
> (edited to add Putin in the total number)


The was an interesting, if disturbing, talk she gave.


----------



## mellowyellow

WASHINGTON, March 15 (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution condemning Russian President Vladimir Putin as a war criminal, a rare show of unity in the deeply divided Congress.


----------



## Furryanimal

LVIV/KYIV, Ukraine, March 16 (Reuters) - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy said on Wednesday peace talks were sounding more realistic but more time was needed, as Russian air strikes killed five people in the capital Kyiv and the refugee tally from Moscow's invasion reached 3 million.
They continue today.


----------



## Furryanimal

It’ll be a surprise when we are nuked!

The UK Government has no active system in place to provide the public with early warning of a nuclear attack despite the possibility of Nato nations becoming embroiled in Russia’s war in Ukraine,’ i‘can reveal.

Civil defence, military and local council sources have all confirmed no UK cities have had air raid sirens or civil defence systems in place since they were wound up at the end of the Cold War in the early 1990s.

The Government has been working on a new emergency system that will use push text alerts to mobile devices since last year, but disputes between ministers over which Government department will pay for it has led to delays in its implementation.



One senior advisor to the Cabinet Office told i that in the event of an attack, especially if the war in Ukraine escalates to Nato nations, the UK is “totally unprepared” to advise the public on how to best protect themselves.

President Vladimir Putin has around 4,500 operational nuclear warheads and has put his forces on heightened alert in the event that he chooses to use them against Ukraine or any other nation.

Last weekend, cabinet member Michael Gove was asked whether the possibility that the Putin regime could use nuclear weapons was a real concern for the UK government.

“Yes,” he said, adding Putin was capable of “terrible, terrible violence”.

Despite such a concern over Putin’s potential to use nuclear weapons among senior ministers, the Cabinet Office refused to comment on when the new emergency alert system would be operational


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## hollydolly

I suspect Russia didn't realise or was unprepared for the backlash from the west in this  age... Rather than immediate backlash in  war.....but cutting them off from western civilisation... removing services  and goods  that Russian People have become used to , such as Amazon, Starbucks, Coca-Cola, KFC, and McDonalds have all  ceased trading.

BP & Shell closed their petrol and aviation fuelling stations in Russia.

Apple , Amazon, Google and Tik-Tok, have all suspended services to Russia.

Samsung has suspended shipments  The South Korean tech company is Russia’s largest smartphone manufacturer.

Airbnb has blocked Russians from booking rooms on its platform and dropped Russian listings from its site.

Mastercard suspended its network services in Russia at the weekend. Russian banks will no longer be supported by the Mastercard network regardless of whether their cards are used inside or outside the country.
Other consumer-facing brands that have halted sales in Russia include the UK carmakers Jaguar Land Rover and Aston Martin.

Internationally, Ford, GE, Ferrari and Mercedes Benz owner Daimler have all curtailed operations in the country. US motorcycle maker Harley Davidson has also suspended all business.
Many fashion brands and retailers are taking part in the boycott.

At the top of the market, Burberry, Canada Goose and LVMH - owner of luxury brands including Louis Vuitton - have stopped shipments and shut shops in a blow to oligarchs.

Retailers including H&M and Zara-owner Inditex have curtailed activities in Russia.

And brands ranging from Levi to Adidas and Nike have stopped shipping to the country. IKEA and Lego have also joined the international corporate shunning.

Russians are also having their entertainment cut off: streaming services Netflix has suspended operations there and studios including Disney, Warner Brothers, Sony and Universal have pledged not to release new films there for the foreseeable future.

Spotify has shut its offices in Russia in response to what it called Moscow’s “unprovoked attack” on Ukraine.

The exodus extends to finance and professional services: UK-based “big four” business consultants and accountants – Deloitte, EY, KPMG and PwC – have insisted they will shut their Russia offices. Most major consultants, including Bain and McKinsey, have cut back on business.

Banks are pulling out too, including major international players HSBC and JPMorgan.

Russians are also having their entertainment cut off: streaming services Netflix has suspended operations there and studios including Disney, Warner Brothers, Sony and Universal have pledged not to release new films there for the foreseeable future.

Spotify has shut its offices in Russia in response to what it called Moscow’s “unprovoked attack” on Ukraine.

Instead of closing its sites in Russia, Burger King is said to be donating the profits from its 800 franchised restaurants in Russia to Ukrainian relief efforts.







​









​


----------



## Furryanimal

FT: Ukraine, Russia draw up tentative peace plan to end war. ​The 15-point draft deal includes a ceasefire and Russian troop withdrawal if Kyiv renounces NATO membership ambitions and accepts limits on its armed forces.


----------



## hollydolly

Furryanimal said:


> FT: Ukraine, Russia draw up tentative peace plan to end war.​The 15-point draft deal includes a ceasefire and Russian troop withdrawal if Kyiv renounces NATO membership ambitions and accepts limits on its armed forces.


hmmm... so where does it end ?.. This is a real concern...Russia or any other country could use the same tactics on any country to get them to give into their demands ..just bomb the crap outta them until they do as they're told... 

Ukraine has lost 2 cities, and 3 million people. 3 Million people have lost their homes... and hundreds  have died..including children.. and young men barely out of school who were sent to their deaths under the guise of protecting Ukraine rather than attacking..

Ukraine may want to have this all stopped of course, who wouldn't  but at what price to them, and what price to the world from Bullying countries.. if they give into these demands ?


----------



## AnnieA

hollydolly said:


> hmmm... so where does it end ?.. This is a real concern...Russia or any other country could use the same tactics on any country to get them to give into their demands ..just bomb the crap outta them until they do as they're told...
> 
> Ukraine has lost 2 cities, and 3 million people. 3 Million people have lost their homes... and hundreds  have died..including children.. and young men barely out of school who were sent to their deaths under the guise of protecting Ukraine rather than attacking..
> 
> Ukraine may want to have this all stopped of course, who wouldn't  but at what price to them, and what price to the world from Bullying countries.. if they give into these demands ?



Exactly.  This guy tweets really long threads (interesting ones) and he's usually right on the mark.   When he refers in point #3 of above the second pic to "Comes out a saviour" it's because point #1 "Manufacture a conflict" always involves some spin about keeping Russia safe.   One commenter in the thread said it's like negotiating with an arsonist to put out a fire.

*Easier way to read Galeev's threads:  https://threadreaderapp.com/user/kamilkazani


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504103927360360451


----------



## Murrmurr

Furryanimal said:


> FT: Ukraine, Russia draw up tentative peace plan to end war.​The 15-point draft deal includes a ceasefire and Russian troop withdrawal if Kyiv renounces NATO membership ambitions and accepts limits on its armed forces.


A possible invitation for Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and maybe Moldova to allow US military bases and build-up.


----------



## Furryanimal

hollydolly said:


> hmmm... so where does it end ?.. This is a real concern...Russia or any other country could use the same tactics on any country to get them to give into their demands ..just bomb the crap outta them until they do as they're told...
> 
> Ukraine has lost 2 cities, and 3 million people. 3 Million people have lost their homes... and hundreds  have died..including children.. and young men barely out of school who were sent to their deaths under the guise of protecting Ukraine rather than attacking..
> 
> Ukraine may want to have this all stopped of course, who wouldn't  but at what price to them, and what price to the world from Bullying countries.. if they give into these demands ?


This was always going to happen.
And could have been agreed before it even started.
Nothing unexpected but Zelensky is a realist.
Most of his enormous country is actually still intact and he wants to keep it that way.

It will take years for Ukraine to recover from this but Putin won’t be in power forever.
It seems generally agreed he is terminally ill.
But assuming my friend is okay I know what she will think of this.
But we were agreed  Ukraine could never win.
And better this than more needless death and destruction.
If it was us Putin was doing this to I’d want such a deal too.


----------



## hollydolly

*Putin, today sent a chilling warning to the West and oligarchs telling 'scum' traitors that Russians will 'spit them out like a midge that flew into their mouths' - as he claimed Western 'attempts to have global dominance' is coming to an end. *

_The Russian President, speaking in a bombastic televised address from the Kremlin nearly three weeks into Moscow's invasion, warned the West would use 'those who earn their money here, but live over there' as a 'fifth column' to 'divide our society'.  

'I do not judge those with villas in Miami or the French Riviera. Or who can't get by without oysters or foie gras or so-called 'gender freedoms.' The problem is they mentally exist there, and not here, with our people, with Russia,' he said.  'The West will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors... to divide our society.. to provoke civil confrontation... to strive to achieve its aim. And there is one aim - the destruction of Russia.'    

He claimed that the conflict was merely a pretext for the West to impose sanctions because 'they just don't want a strong and sovereign Russia' and insisted the 'military operation' in Ukraine is going to plan despite his troops' advance remaining largely stalled on the outskirts of Kyiv. But he also told Russians, in words ironically reminiscent of Zelensky's speeches, that 'we are fighting for our sovereignty and the future of our children'.    

It is the latest in the propaganda pushed by Moscow in a bid to justify their invasion of Ukraine to Russian citizens - including claims the war is about 'de-nazifying' the country and preventing a genocide of minorities waged by Kyiv.    

Putin spoke as Zelensky spoke to US lawmakers in a landmark virtual address to Congress in which he invoked Pearl Harbour, the 9/11 attacks and Martin Luther King Jr as he called for greater Western intervention against Russia. 

In a coordinated move last month Britain, the US, Canada and the EU, barred Moscow from the Swift international banking system to prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves 'in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions'. 

The states have since imposed a sweeping range of sanctions on exports of champagne, high-end cars, fashion apparel, expensive electronics, sports gear and even vodka among other things as they attempt to bring the Russian economy to its knees in a punishment over Putin's war in Ukraine. 

And in the most recent measures, hundreds of Russian oligarchs, organisations and individuals are set to be hit with sanctions from the Government after a fast-tracked bill to target 'dirty money' in the UK is passed. Several oligarchs, including Chelsea owner Roman Abramovitch, have already been targeted with sanctions. 

Video of Putin talking here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ests-attempt-global-dominance-coming-end.html_


----------



## hollydolly

_Ukraine has today* rejected a Russian plan to become 'neutral' like Sweden or Austria* as the warring sides try to hash out a deal to end the bloodshed in eastern Europe.

Moscow is thought to be demanding that Ukraine refuse to join any military alliance or host foreign military bases on its soil in exchange for a ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian troops currently terrorising the country. 

But Kyiv has said any deal will need to include security guarantees underwritten by 'international partners' who would agree to come to Ukraine's defence in the event it is attacked again.

Mikhailo Podolyak, Ukraine's top negotiator, said the international community cannot be allowed 'to stand aside in the event of an attack on Ukraine, as they do today' should fighting restart.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov today confirmed that neutrality is taking centre stage with Moscow and Kyiv 'close to agreeing' the wording of an agreement, as it was revealed a 15-point plan for peace is being discussed.

The plan includes 'limits' on Ukraine's armed forces in return for Russia withdrawing from areas captured since the start of war on February 24, including along the Black Sea coast in the south, and Ukraine's northern and eastern borders.

But it is unclear what would become of Crimea - which Russia insists must be recognised as part of its territory - and Donetsk and Luhansk - which the Kremlin says should be recognised as independent.

Putin insists that the whole of Donetsk and Luhansk - known as the Donbass - should split from Ukraine, and not just the parts occupied by pro-Moscow rebel forces before fighting broke out. It is unclear if Kyiv would agree to such terms._

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-neutrality-Ukraine-seriously-discussed.html


----------



## todalake

The 15 point agreement was Russia proposal.   However, Podolyak ejected the claims via Twitter, saying: "Briefly. FT published a draft, which represents the requesting position of the Russian side. Nothing more. The Ukraine side has its own positions."

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-and-russia-draw-up-15-point-ceasefire-peace-plan-150220659.html

Among them was limit Ukraine military.   No mention of reparations for Russian damage done.   And implied trust Putin.   On top of that some Russian lawmakers want USA to pay reparations to Russia because of sanctions.  Also some want Alaska and part of California back.


----------



## todalake

Furryanimal said:


> This was always going to happen.
> And could have been agreed before it even started.
> Nothing unexpected but Zelensky is a realist.
> Most of his enormous country is actually still intact and he wants to keep it that way.
> 
> It will take years for Ukraine to recover from this but Putin won’t be in power forever.
> It seems generally agreed he is terminally ill.
> But assuming my friend is okay I know what she will think of this.
> But we were agreed  Ukraine could never win.
> And better this than more needless death and destruction.
> If it was us Putin was doing this to I’d want such a deal too.


It a good thing that most British weren't like you during WWII.    They would of handed England over to Hitler.


----------



## Furryanimal

todalake said:


> It a good thing that most British weren't like you during WWII.    They would of handed England over to Hitler.


Okay then..let’s keep the war going until Ukraine no longer exists.
They can’t win.....


----------



## AnnieA

hollydolly said:


> ..._' The problem is they mentally exist there, and not here, with our people, with Russia,' he said.  'The West will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors... to divide our society.. to provoke civil confrontation... to strive to achieve its aim. And there is one aim - the destruction of Russia.'
> 
> He claimed that the conflict was merely a pretext for the West to impose sanctions because 'they just don't want a strong and sovereign Russia' and insisted the 'military operation' in Ukraine is going to plan despite his troops' advance remaining largely stalled on the outskirts of Kyiv. But he also told Russians, in words ironically reminiscent of Zelensky's speeches, that 'we are fighting for our sovereignty and the future of our children'.
> 
> It is the latest in the propaganda pushed by Moscow in a bid to justify their invasion of Ukraine to Russian citizens - including claims the war is about 'de-nazifying' the country and preventing a genocide of minorities waged by Kyiv.   ..._



Some ideal of a restored and strong "Imperial Russia" (would love to see their fantasy expansion map) is driving those at the top and it won't stop with Putin's death.  They undoubtably have his replacement lined up.  The twitter guy I posted about above Kamil Galeev said Putin has used the need to protect Russia as an excuse for Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Ukraine 2014 (Crimea) and the current invasion of Ukraine.  Each time, the scale escalates.

Kamil Galeev has an interesting bio. He's Russian with a B.A. in History from the Higher School of Economics (Moscow), MA in China Studies, Peking University,  MLitt in Early Modern History, St Andrews.  He looks to be in his 20s, so brings a different perspective than so many older pundits.  He has posted a time or two about his opinions along the lines of "I think I  got that wrong" which is heartening.


----------



## ElCastor

Ouch! There have been Putin hints about nukes throughout this Ukraine debacle. Meanwhile China continues to threaten Taiwan, an island that we have said we will "defend". And Kim tests a new, larger, ICBM. Thankfully the test reportedly failed, but I am sure there will be another. Maybe it's time for a flying saucer to land and bring humanity back to its senses. (-8


----------



## David777

The below article link comments briefly on games being played by elites in ongoing propaganda war.  What Putin is doing is blatant though he obviously cares little if those in the West immediately reject and mock whatever because his audience is not with them but within his own authoritarian state he has suppressed Western views into.  On the other hand, the propaganda in the West is not as obvious but rather requires uncommon skeptical, intelligent thinking by those with a good command over whatever language.  The below article just mentions token examples for the sake of making points.

https://www.fairobserver.com/region...ladimir-putin-ukranian-nato-world-news-79103/

One thing I have noticed is that several of the links I've posted on this board from Google web searching over the last few weeks have mysteriously disappeared while using the same terms like "NATO AND neutral" or "war AND propaganda" or "Ukraine AND history". That shows neocons have influenced a more devious level of media suppression few might notice.  From not understanding squat as this conflict began, as a member keen on not posting any text directly that is political, I've already noticed a list of additional troubling items I could present herein, however as I've noted previously, beyond posting a few links for others to consider on their own pro or con, nothing this micro peon might add will change anything.


----------



## Murrmurr

Furryanimal said:


> Okay then..let’s keep the war going until Ukraine no longer exists.
> They can’t win.....


That depends on how you define "win" in this situation. As far as I'm concerned, Putin has already lost, soundly and completely.


----------



## Paco Dennis

hollydolly said:


> *Putin, today sent a chilling warning to the West and oligarchs telling 'scum' traitors that Russians will 'spit them out like a midge that flew into their mouths' - as he claimed Western 'attempts to have global dominance' is coming to an end. *
> 
> _The Russian President, speaking in a bombastic televised address from the Kremlin nearly three weeks into Moscow's invasion, warned the West would use 'those who earn their money here, but live over there' as a 'fifth column' to 'divide our society'.
> 
> 'I do not judge those with villas in Miami or the French Riviera. Or who can't get by without oysters or foie gras or so-called 'gender freedoms.' The problem is they mentally exist there, and not here, with our people, with Russia,' he said.  'The West will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors... to divide our society.. to provoke civil confrontation... to strive to achieve its aim. And there is one aim - the destruction of Russia.'
> 
> He claimed that the conflict was merely a pretext for the West to impose sanctions because 'they just don't want a strong and sovereign Russia' and insisted the 'military operation' in Ukraine is going to plan despite his troops' advance remaining largely stalled on the outskirts of Kyiv. But he also told Russians, in words ironically reminiscent of Zelensky's speeches, that 'we are fighting for our sovereignty and the future of our children'.
> 
> It is the latest in the propaganda pushed by Moscow in a bid to justify their invasion of Ukraine to Russian citizens - including claims the war is about 'de-nazifying' the country and preventing a genocide of minorities waged by Kyiv.
> 
> Putin spoke as Zelensky spoke to US lawmakers in a landmark virtual address to Congress in which he invoked Pearl Harbour, the 9/11 attacks and Martin Luther King Jr as he called for greater Western intervention against Russia.
> 
> In a coordinated move last month Britain, the US, Canada and the EU, barred Moscow from the Swift international banking system to prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves 'in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions'.
> 
> The states have since imposed a sweeping range of sanctions on exports of champagne, high-end cars, fashion apparel, expensive electronics, sports gear and even vodka among other things as they attempt to bring the Russian economy to its knees in a punishment over Putin's war in Ukraine.
> 
> And in the most recent measures, hundreds of Russian oligarchs, organisations and individuals are set to be hit with sanctions from the Government after a fast-tracked bill to target 'dirty money' in the UK is passed. Several oligarchs, including Chelsea owner Roman Abramovitch, have already been targeted with sanctions.
> 
> Video of Putin talking here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ests-attempt-global-dominance-coming-end.html_


Dailymail is a questionable source for factual informtion



https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/


----------



## mellowyellow

Ukraine has become part of the European Union’s Energy Union
"The joining together of the Ukrainian and the European energy systems has now been finalised. Now our electricity can flow to Europe and European electricity to Ukraine. I am grateful to the EU member states.


----------



## Murrmurr

David777 said:


> The below article link comments briefly on games being played by elites in ongoing propaganda war.  What Putin is doing is blatant though he obviously cares little if those in the West immediately reject and mock whatever because his audience is not with them but within his own authoritarian state he has suppressed Western views into.  On the other hand, the propaganda in the West is not as obvious but rather requires uncommon skeptical, intelligent thinking by those with a good command over whatever language.  The below article just mentions token examples for the sake of making points.
> 
> https://www.fairobserver.com/region...ladimir-putin-ukranian-nato-world-news-79103/
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that several of the links I've posted on this board from Google web searching over the last few weeks have mysteriously disappeared while using the same terms like "NATO AND neutral" or "war AND propaganda" or "Ukraine AND history". That shows neocons have influenced a more devious level of media suppression few might notice.  From not understanding squat as this conflict began, as a member keen on not posting any text directly that is political, I've already noticed a list of additional troubling items I could present herein, however as I've noted previously, beyond posting a few links for others to consider on their own pro or con, nothing this micro peon might add will change anything.


I believe most Russian citizens agree in part with the west in that they don't like what Putin is doing. Also, most can see through the propaganda _they're_ getting. They've lived with it all their lives, they know it when they see it. Not so true of citizens in the west. Too many of us still trust our media, but I think a lot of us don't.


----------



## AnnieA

Paco Dennis said:


> Dailymail is a questionable source for factual informtion
> 
> View attachment 213342
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/




Use of subjective source ranking websites is intellectually lazy.   Start reading anywhere, then follow the content clues elsewhere to prove or disprove it.

I can tell you as someone who reads from all over the political spectrum that Daily Mail's serious news isn't often inaccurate.  I can generally verify what they publish.


----------



## hollydolly

Paco Dennis said:


> Dailymail is a questionable source for factual informtion
> 
> View attachment 213342
> 
> https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/


well feel free to read loads of other media outlets for the same story...


----------



## mellowyellow

I think there is situation brewing for Putin that could be his undoing – the surrender of his troops. As many have already walked away, his greatest public shaming would be to see his troops desert him.


----------



## hollydolly

mellowyellow said:


> I think there is situation brewing for Putin that could be his undoing – the surrender of his troops. As many have already walked away, his greatest public shaming would be to see his troops desert him.


that would be the ultimate shaming, oh how I would love to see that ...


----------



## Becky1951

Russian strike hits theater in Mariupol sheltering "hundreds" of residents, Ukraine foreign minister says.​
Russian forces struck a theater where "hundreds" of civilians were sheltering in the besieged port city of Mariupol on Wednesday, local officials and Ukraine's minister of foreign affairs said. There was no immediate word on deaths or injuries.

"The building is now fully ruined," tweeted Minister Dmytro Kuleba, along with a purported photograph of the destroyed theater. "Russians could not have not known this was a civilian shelter."

The Mariupol city council said on Telegram that Russia "purposefully destroyed the Drama Theatre, where hundreds of people are hiding."  The council said a plane dropped a bomb on the building, destroying the "central part" of the theater and the "entrance to the bomb shelter in the building."   

"It is still impossible to estimate the scale of this horrific and inhumane act," the city council said on Telegram.

Other images and video purportedly showing the aftermath of the strike were posted on social media. 

Russia has denied targeting civilians. The Russian defense ministry said its forces had not struck the building and blamed the attack on the Azov Battalion, a far-right Ukrainian militia, RIA news agency reported.

Mariupol, a southern seaport of 430,000 residents, has become a symbol of Russian President Vladimir Putin's drive to crush democratic Ukraine - but also of a fierce resistance on the ground.


In the nearly three weeks since Russia's war began, two Associated Press journalists have been the only international media present in Mariupol, chronicling its fall into chaos and despair. The city is now encircled by Russian soldiers, who are slowly squeezing the life out of it, one blast at a time.

Several appeals for humanitarian corridors to evacuate civilians went unheeded, until Ukrainian officials said Wednesday that about 30,000 people had fled in convoys of cars. Airstrikes and shells have hit the maternity hospital, the fire department, homes, a church, a field outside a school. For the estimated hundreds of thousands who remain, there is quite simply nowhere to go.

The surrounding roads are mined and the port blocked. Food is running out, and the Russians have stopped humanitarian attempts to bring it in. Electricity is mostly gone and water is sparse, with residents melting snow to drink. Some parents have even left their newborns at the hospital, perhaps hoping to give them a chance at life in the one place with decent electricity and water.

People burn scraps of furniture in makeshift grills to warm their hands in the freezing cold and cook what little food there still is. The grills themselves are built with the one thing in plentiful supply: bricks and shards of metal scattered in the streets from destroyed buildings.

Death is everywhere. Local officials have tallied more than 2,500 deaths in the siege, but many bodies can't be counted because of the endless shelling. They have told families to leave their dead outside in the streets because it's too dangerous to hold funerals.

Many of the deaths documented by the AP were of children and mothers, despite Russia's claims that civilians haven't been attacked. Doctors say they are treating 10 civilians for every injured Ukrainian soldier.

"They have a clear order to hold Mariupol hostage, to mock it, to constantly bomb and shell it," Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said on March 10.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-strike-theater-mariupol-residents-ukraine-foreign-minister-says/


----------



## OneEyedDiva

Furryanimal said:


> A warning from History....
> 
> 
> https://inews.co.uk/opinion/demonising-russia-risks-making-compromise-impossible-and-prolonging-the-war-1512064?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=i Editor's Choice 12/03/2022&utm_term=inews


Does the author of this piece or anyone else really believe that what we do or don't do here will change Putin's mind and actions? Especially if he is as unhinged as reports are suggesting. I think he's going to continue to do as he pleases with no regard to civilian lives. He's been given opportunities to end this peacefully and things have escalated instead.


----------



## Murrmurr

Putin is out of his gourd.






I've always known his invasion of Ukraine is totally about the west and his own glory.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> Putin is out of his gourd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always known his invasion of Ukraine is totally about the west and his own glory.


yes I put a link to it in my last post..I feel that he's either got a terminal illness and wants to go out in a blaze of glory or he's become mentally ill...and someone has to relieve this man of his post...someone in Russia, but how is the question.. and would it be a jumping from the frying pan into the fire situation... is he now being used a  sock puppet ?..who knows.... The man has always been super intelligent there's never been any doubt about that, and dangerous ... but  I can't believe he's being allowed to say and do all this without the backing of a whole bunch of others.. 

Excuse me it's very  late and I'm tired  I'm probably waffling here..


----------



## mellowyellow

Russia says their conscripts are not being sent to fight in Ukraine. But this is just another lie. We have already caught a bunch of them. Now they have something to tell their liar-in-chief.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503855619324928004


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> yes I put a link to it in my last post..I feel that he's either got a terminal illness and wants to go out in a blaze of glory or he's become mentally ill...and someone has to relieve this man of his post...someone in Russia, but how is the question.. and would it be a jumping from the frying pan into the fire situation... is he now being used a  sock puppet ?..who knows.... The man has always been super intelligent there's never been any doubt about that, and dangerous ... but  I can't believe he's being allowed to say and do all this without the backing of a whole bunch of others..
> 
> Excuse me it's very  late and I'm tired  I'm probably waffling here..


His backing is the CCP....my best guess. Not that he trusts Xi, and Xi doesn't trust Putin, but I think they're colluding - East takes West, by any means necessary. 

Xi is more intelligent (cunning) that Putin, imo.

'night, Holly.


----------



## Murrmurr

mellowyellow said:


> Russia says their conscripts are not being sent to fight in Ukraine. But this is just another lie. We have already caught a bunch of them. Now they have something to tell their liar-in-chief.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1503855619324928004


Putin feels totally justified in lying to western liars.


----------



## hollydolly

_*Russia continued to lie through its teeth today claiming that the Kremlin's forces 'don't bomb cities' and dismissing the Mariupol theatre bombing as a 'lie' - as rescuers race to free survivors buried under the rubble.   
*
Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova, speaking in a briefing from Moscow, repeated claims that Moscow's forces are only targeting strategic military locations and are not waging war on the civilian population of Ukraine. 

But there have been repeated attacks on residential areas by Putin's forces, with three people killed and five wounded after Russian shelling on Wednesday in Kharkiv, and scores more feared dead after the Mariupol Drama Theatre was bombed.

Satellite imagery from Monday showed the word 'children' written in large white letters in Russian in front of and behind the theatre building in an apparent effort to stave off any attack by Vladimir Putin's forces. But two days later, Russian forces bombed the theatre where hundreds - including sick children and women - were sheltering.

Up to 1,200 civilians are believed to have been sheltering in the theatre and officials said late on Wednesday that it was impossible to know how many people were killed or injured in the attack because the shelling of residential areas continues in the city, meaning rescuers cannot reach those trapped in the rubble. 

After Russia's bombs hit the theatre, the central part of the building collapsed, burying large numbers of people under rubble, Ukrainian officials said. The debris also blocked the entrance to the bomb shelter located inside the building. 

The targeting of civilians drew strong condemnation, with US President Joe Biden for the first time branding Putin as a war criminal and Ukraine saying the attack was a war crime. 

Putin faced further allegations of war crimes on Wednesday after video of an attack that was later confirmed by Ukraine's prosecutor general showed at least 10 civilians gunned down while they were queueing for bread outside Chernihiv. 

Ukraine's prosecutor general confirmed in a statement the attack by Russian forces who 'fired at people standing in line for bread near a grocery store.' While new drone footage appeared to show Russian soldiers executing a lone Ukrainian civilian as he held his hands up to surrender on a highway west of Kyiv last week.  

Russian rocket attacks also targeted a convoy of people fleeing Mariupol, killing civilians, including children, on Wednesday after earlier strikes targeted a nearby hub for displaced people. It is not yet known how many were killed in the shelling but an image from the scene showed a burnt out car, with a damaged door blown open. _

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...remlin-spokeswoman-says-dont-bomb-cities.html


----------



## JustBonee

hollydolly said:


> _*Russia continued to lie through its teeth today claiming that the Kremlin's forces 'don't bomb cities' and dismissing the Mariupol theatre bombing as a 'lie' - as rescuers race to free survivors buried under the rubble.   *_



Putin so lives in the past,     and seems oblivious  to the  world being  totally  transparent these days.   
He needs to crawl  back under his rock..  There is so much evil in him.


----------



## squatting dog

Perhaps as a country, we've gotten better, but, March 10th slid by without a reminder that we can also be very barbaric. 

Anyone sincerely outraged by what is happening in Ukraine shoud also devote themselves to kindling the memory of the mass murder that took place in 1945.

Check the pages of your daily paper and the coverage of your television news and corporate media websites for March 10 1945 and see how much (if any) time or space was accorded the mass slaughter of civilians, after the armed forces of the United States government turned the residential sections of Tokyo into a gargantuan human barbecue pit.

If “Never Again” are the watchwords in the noble campaign to prevent future holocausts, should not the incineration of Tokyo's civilian population be remembered on the date it occurred, and its lessons imparted to all the people, in our schools, Congress and the cathedrals of media?

On March 10, 1945 hundreds of thousands of napalm explosives were dropped from three hundred B-29 Superfortress bombers on the residential sections of the city of Tokyo, intentionally setting afire 16 square miles of densely packed wooden dwellings mainly inhabited by women, children and men too old to fight. In a single morning at least 100,000 people were killed, and one million were made refugees.


----------



## David777

This couple day old 17 minute PBS video interview with *Julia Ioffe* at the below link is a welcome example of a journalist with honest appraisals of the war situation despite having a pro-Western orientation. Her excellent natural flowing elocution reflects practiced public speaking of a keen mind. Some regardless of subject tend to dislike any others listening to biased media sources opposite their own positions because they seem to believe others regardless of skill won't be able to digest whatever with levels of skepticism accurately. Although that may be true for the majority of public audiences, I use this as an example of someone whose choice of words and style rings with honesty and truth, I've spent a lifetime honing. 

Julia Ioffe: Why Ukraine Invasion Is  Europe's 9/11
snippet:

_As efforts continue to find a diplomatic solution for the war in Ukraine, the majority of Russians reportedly support Putin’s plan. Russian-born American journalist Julia Ioffe is a founding partner at Puck News and speaks with *Walter Isaacson* about the future of Russia. _

https://www.pbs.org/video/julia-ioffe-why-ukraine-invasion-is-europes-911-ayhyhl/

​


----------



## todalake

Not defending it but who started the war?   Remember Pearl Harbor?   The military was offered choice to surrender  but they refused.   Estimates to storm mainland Japan would have cost 100,000+ American lives.   We can read about because of our freedom, whereas in Russia can only read what Kremlin want you to read.


----------



## Murrmurr

squatting dog said:


> Perhaps as a country, we've gotten better, but, March 10th slid by without a reminder that we can also be very barbaric.
> 
> Anyone sincerely outraged by what is happening in Ukraine shoud also devote themselves to kindling the memory of the mass murder that took place in 1945.
> 
> Check the pages of your daily paper and the coverage of your television news and corporate media websites for March 10 1945 and see how much (if any) time or space was accorded the mass slaughter of civilians, after the armed forces of the United States government turned the residential sections of Tokyo into a gargantuan human barbecue pit.
> 
> If “Never Again” are the watchwords in the noble campaign to prevent future holocausts, should not the incineration of Tokyo's civilian population be remembered on the date it occurred, and its lessons imparted to all the people, in our schools, Congress and the cathedrals of media?
> 
> On March 10, 1945 hundreds of thousands of napalm explosives were dropped from three hundred B-29 Superfortress bombers on the residential sections of the city of Tokyo, intentionally setting afire 16 square miles of densely packed wooden dwellings mainly inhabited by women, children and men too old to fight. In a single morning at least 100,000 people were killed, and one million were made refugees.


But does Putin care?

(Russia lost more lives in WWll than all other military involved plus all Jewish and non-Jewish souls lost in the concentration camps combined.)


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

todalake said:


> Not defending it but who started the war?   Remember Pearl Harbor?   The military was offered choice to surrender  but they refused.   Estimates to storm mainland Japan would have cost 100,000+ American lives.   We can read about because of our freedom, whereas in Russia can only read what Kremlin want you to read.


I guess it all depends on who is doing the bombing and the dying. Or better yet, which government can project a passable excuse. We say that targeting civilians is a war crime. Truman had no problem annihilating 100,000+ Japanese civilians and just as many survived with lifelong injuries. Trying to claim the moral high ground can be tenuous.


----------



## mellowyellow

Arnie talks about Russia
I love the Russian people. That is why I have to tell you the truth. Please watch and share.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504426844199669762


----------



## hollydolly

WOW  I never thought I'd ever hear Arnie speak with such intelligence, bravery, and conviction.. in my life, much less to the instigators of a war... What an emotional and strong speech.

I'm not convinced however that the average Russian people will ever get to see it unfortunately...


----------



## mellowyellow

_On Thursday afternoon, President Vladimir Putin rang the Turkish President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and told him what Russia's precise demands were for a peace deal with Ukraine.

Chief among them is an acceptance by Ukraine that it should be neutral and should not apply to join NATO. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has already conceded this.

There are other demands in this category which mostly seem to be face-saving elements for the Russian side.

Ukraine would have to undergo a disarmament process to ensure it wasn't a threat to Russia. There would have to be protection for the Russian language in Ukraine. And there is something called de-Nazification……._

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-euro...st+type]&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter


----------



## mellowyellow

and also


----------



## RadishRose

This ends abruptly with an offer to download the CBS News App


----------



## RnR

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 213510
> 
> and also
> 
> View attachment 213511


----------



## mellowyellow

Elegant Odesa. As Russian warships circle off the coast, air-raid sirens wail over the cobbled streets, and Russian ground forces seek to advance west along the shores of the Black Sea, civilians in this historic, famously cosmopolitan port city are facing the same hard and urgent choices that millions of other Ukrainians have already confronted


----------



## todalake

mellowyellow said:


> _On Thursday afternoon, President Vladimir Putin rang the Turkish President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and told him what Russia's precise demands were for a peace deal with Ukraine.
> 
> Chief among them is an acceptance by Ukraine that it should be neutral and should not apply to join NATO. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has already conceded this.
> 
> There are other demands in this category which mostly seem to be face-saving elements for the Russian side.
> 
> Ukraine would have to undergo a disarmament process to ensure it wasn't a threat to Russia. There would have to be protection for the Russian language in Ukraine. And there is something called de-Nazification……._
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754?xtor=AL-72-[partner]-[bbc.news.twitter]-[headline]-[news]-[bizdev]-[isapi]&at_custom3=@BBCWorld&at_custom4=CFBB1C34-A63A-11EC-8856-DD894744363C&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter


I think it is given that Ukraine wouldn't attack Russia.   But Russia wants Ukraine to demilitarize to what end?   So that they will be easier to invade the next time.   Promises and agreements aren't worth anything  if they don't want to abide by them.    Ask the American Indians how some of their treaties worked out. 

In 1994, Ukraine, Russia, the U.S. and the U.K. signed the Budapest Memorandum. The other three nations made six commitments to Ukraine: to respect Ukraine’s independence and existing borders, to refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine except for in defense, to refrain from economic coercion to gain advantages from Ukraine, to provide assistance to Ukraine if it becomes victim to an act of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used, to not use their nuclear weapons on Ukraine or other non-nuclear-weapon states and to consult one another in the event these commitments are put into question.
Ukraine, in return, committed to eliminating “all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time.”

How did that work out?


----------



## hollydolly

todalake said:


> I think it is given that Ukraine wouldn't attack Russia.   But Russia wants Ukraine to demilitarize to what end?   So that they will be easier to invade the next time.   Promises and agreements aren't worth anything  if they don't want to abide by them.    Ask the American Indians how some of their treaties worked out.
> 
> In 1994, Ukraine, Russia, the U.S. and the U.K. signed the Budapest Memorandum. The other three nations made six commitments to Ukraine: to respect Ukraine’s independence and existing borders, to refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine except for in defense, to refrain from economic coercion to gain advantages from Ukraine, to provide assistance to Ukraine if it becomes victim to an act of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used, to not use their nuclear weapons on Ukraine or other non-nuclear-weapon states and to consult one another in the event these commitments are put into question.
> Ukraine, in return, committed to eliminating “all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time.”
> 
> *How did that work out?*


Nothing will ever work out if you have a madman not obeying the rules....


----------



## hollydolly

_*Vladimir Putin has today given a tub-thumping speech to tens of thousands of banner-waving Russians in an attempt to drum up support for his stalled invasion of Ukraine, as he peddled debunked claims about why the war started and shilled a false narrative of Russia's battlefield 'success'.  *_ 

The despot took to the stage at Moscow's Luzhniki World Cup stadium dressed in a £10,000 Loro Piana jacket - despite his country's economy crumbling under the weight of Western sanctions - to address a crowd waving Russian national flags and banners marked with the letter 'Z', which has become a potent symbol of the invasion. 

Putin, who called the rally to mark the anniversary of the last time he attacked Ukraine to annex the Crimea region, spoke of sharing a 'common destiny' with Crimeans, of 'de-Nazifying' the region in 2014, and of the 'bravery' of soldiers currently fighting in Ukraine. He was met with chants of 'Russia, Russia, Russia.' 

Speaking in front of banners that read 'For a world without Nazism' and 'For Russia' - with the letter 'Z' in each picked out in bold - he said: 'Sevastopol [capital of Crimea] did the right thing when they put up a barrier to neo-Nazis and radicals, which is already happening on other territories. 

'[The] people of Donbass also disagreed with this, and straight-away they organised military operations against [the Nazis]. They were surrounded and shelled by guns, the Ukrainians sent airstrikes against them. This is called genocide,' he said, repeating his widely-debunked justification for attacking.  'It is to save people from this suffering and genocide that we launched our military operation.' 

Putin then praised troops taking part in his 'special operation', who he said are fighting for the 'universal values' of all Russians. The words 'we don't abandon our own' were emblazoned on screens around the stadium. Paraphrasing the Bible, he said: 'There is no greater love than giving up one's soul for one's friends.

'The best confirmation of this is how our guys are fighting during this operation, shoulder to shoulder, helping each other. When it is necessary, they cover each-other as if it was their own brother from bullets. We haven't had such unity in a long time,' he said. 

The event included patriotic songs, including a performance of 'Made in the U.S.S.R.,' with the opening lines 'Ukraine and Crimea, Belarus and Moldova, it's all my country.' Moscow police said 200,000 people had attended the event - though the stadium's capacity is only 81,000. 

Some Russians spoke to journalists at the event to say they were government workers who had been pressured to come. Others were students who were told they could have a day off from lectures if they attended 'a concert'.

Click here to see this lunatic giving a speech to the people on how he is saving the Ukrainian people from *suffering and Genocide 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-rally-thousands-Z-flag-waving-Russians.html*


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Click here to see this lunatic giving a speech to the people on how he is saving the Ukrainian people from *suffering and Genocide *
> 
> *https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-rally-thousands-Z-flag-waving-Russians.html*


And yet he made a friendship-pact with China, a country whose people are suffering, and that has and _is_ committing genocide.


----------



## todalake

Ukraine's plead for help parallels some of WWII.   British wanted help and we supplied equipment but not direct military forces(Lend-Lease Act).   We didn't get involved militarily until Pearl Harbor.   Will the same thing happen here with NATO?   Will Russia cross a line where we will be forced to act?  War games indicate if Russia would use a small(tactical) nuclear bomb that it would quickly spiral out of control and civilization as we know would be gone.   Have a good night's sleep.


----------



## Murrmurr

todalake said:


> Ukraine's plead for help parallels some of WWII.   British wanted help and we supplied equipment but not direct military forces(Lend-Lease Act).   We didn't get involved militarily until Pearl Harbor.   Will the same thing happen here with NATO?   Will Russia cross a line where we will be forced to act?  War games indicate if Russia would use a small(tactical) nuclear bomb that it would quickly spiral out of control and civilization as we know would be gone.   Have a good night's sleep.


The US didn't get involved in WWll because, after its involvement in WWl, the gov't hoped to return to being a neutral country. Woodrow Wilson proclaimed the US a neutral country, “impartial in thought as well as in action”, until several U.S. ships traveling to Britain were damaged or sunk by German mines in 1914 and Americans were killed. And the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor dashed any hopes of a neutral America for good.

It's possible that US military support of Ukraine won't include military troop involvement unless Russia harms US people or property, or it's use of nuclear weapons becomes clearly imminent...and maybe only if they're nuclear weapons of "massive destruction".

I don't know much about US and free-world or global rules of engagement, conventions, agreements and etc. But there are rules....not that we haven't broken any in the past. I'm pretty sure we have.


----------



## Pepper

Murrmurr said:


> But there are rules....not that we haven't broken any in the past. I'm pretty sure we have.


----------



## Pinky

RadishRose said:


> This ends abruptly with an offer to download the CBS News App


Video unavailable in my country.


----------



## hollydolly

Pinky said:


> Video unavailable in my country.


see if Mellowyellows' link to it at post 448 on this thread...


----------



## AnnieA

hollydolly said:


> _*Vladimir Putin has today given a tub-thumping speech to tens of thousands of banner-waving Russians in an attempt to drum up support for his stalled invasion of Ukraine, as he peddled debunked claims about why the war started and shilled a false narrative of Russia's battlefield 'success'.  *_
> 
> The despot took to the stage at Moscow's Luzhniki World Cup stadium dressed in a £10,000 Loro Piana jacket - despite his country's economy crumbling under the weight of Western sanctions - to address a crowd waving Russian national flags and banners marked with the letter 'Z', which has become a potent symbol of the invasion.
> 
> Putin, who called the rally to mark the anniversary of the last time he attacked Ukraine to annex the Crimea region, spoke of sharing a 'common destiny' with Crimeans, of 'de-Nazifying' the region in 2014, and of the 'bravery' of soldiers currently fighting in Ukraine. He was met with chants of 'Russia, Russia, Russia.'
> 
> Speaking in front of banners that read 'For a world without Nazism' and 'For Russia' - with the letter 'Z' in each picked out in bold - he said: 'Sevastopol [capital of Crimea] did the right thing when they put up a barrier to neo-Nazis and radicals, which is already happening on other territories.
> 
> '[The] people of Donbass also disagreed with this, and straight-away they organised military operations against [the Nazis]. They were surrounded and shelled by guns, the Ukrainians sent airstrikes against them. This is called genocide,' he said, repeating his widely-debunked justification for attacking.  'It is to save people from this suffering and genocide that we launched our military operation.'
> 
> Putin then praised troops taking part in his 'special operation', who he said are fighting for the 'universal values' of all Russians. The words 'we don't abandon our own' were emblazoned on screens around the stadium. Paraphrasing the Bible, he said: 'There is no greater love than giving up one's soul for one's friends.
> 
> 'The best confirmation of this is how our guys are fighting during this operation, shoulder to shoulder, helping each other. When it is necessary, they cover each-other as if it was their own brother from bullets. We haven't had such unity in a long time,' he said.
> 
> The event included patriotic songs, including a performance of 'Made in the U.S.S.R.,' with the opening lines 'Ukraine and Crimea, Belarus and Moldova, it's all my country.' Moscow police said 200,000 people had attended the event - though the stadium's capacity is only 81,000.
> 
> Some Russians spoke to journalists at the event to say they were government workers who had been pressured to come. Others were students who were told they could have a day off from lectures if they attended 'a concert'.
> 
> Click here to see this lunatic giving a speech to the people on how he is saving the Ukrainian people from *suffering and Genocide
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-rally-thousands-Z-flag-waving-Russians.html*



Bottom video is an interesting attempt at interviews afterwards.  Attendees literally turn their backs on the guy.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1504910577889538048


----------



## mellowyellow

These are the indicative estimates of Russia’s losses as of March 18, according to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.


----------



## mellowyellow

This will hurt Putin so bad


FILE - Russian President Vladimir Putinapplauds beside FIFA President Gianni Infantino at the end of the 2018 World Cup final soccer match between France and Croatia in the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow, Russia, July 15, 2018. Martin Meissner/AP

_FIFA said the Court of Arbitration for Sport dismissed the Russian soccer federation’s bid for an urgent interim ruling to freeze the ban pending a full appeal, which could come within weeks. 

The CAS decision means Russia will not be able to play Poland in World Cup qualifying on Thursday._


----------



## mellowyellow

A Russian-European mission to land a rover on Mars has been suspended due to the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine, the European Space Agency (ESA) announced on Thursday, as Moscow said it regretted the “bitter” decision.   The ExoMars mission had been set to use a Russian launcher later this year to send a European rover to drill for signs of life on the Red Planet.

Dmitry Rogozin, the head of Russia’s space agency Roscosmos, called the decision a “shame”. “This is a very bitter decision for all the enthusiasts of space,” Mr Rogozin said on Telegram. He said the project “would lose several years” but that Russia would “conduct this research expedition on our own”. He added it would be done “without any ‘European friends’ with their tails tucked because of American shouting.”


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

Pepper said:


> View attachment 213613


"Unicef, the UN children's fund, put the number of [Iraqi] children who died as a result of sanctions at anything up to 500,000."

"There was a chilling message from Madeleine Albright, American ambassador to the UN under President Clinton, when challenged in a news programme.

How did she justify a programme which had killed more children than Hiroshima? *'I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it,' she said."*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031648/Its-poor-suffer-sanctions.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/27/magazine/were-sanctions-right.html

"A U.N. report found that, from 1991 to late 1995, as many as 576,000 Iraqi children died because of the harsh economic sanctions, of which Albright was a staunch supporter."

https://www.salon.com/2016/05/11/co...ght_who_defended_deaths_of_500000_iraqi_kids/


----------



## mellowyellow

This is a grocery store yesterday in Kyiv


----------



## SeaBreeze

Pinky said:


> Video unavailable in my country.


Can you see this one?  Thank you Arnold.  I read this is trending on Russian social media, a very good thing.


----------



## Murrmurr

Pepper said:


> View attachment 213613


Yep, that's only 1 example. I'm sure Putin could rattle off dozens; he's got them memorized.

The US only follows the rules when it's convenient / fits the agenda / maintains power. 
Obviously, it's not the only country that does, though.


----------



## ElCastor

squatting dog said:


> Perhaps as a country, we've gotten better, but, March 10th slid by without a reminder that we can also be very barbaric.
> 
> Anyone sincerely outraged by what is happening in Ukraine shoud also devote themselves to kindling the memory of the mass murder that took place in 1945.


"Japan's barbarism in the months and years leading up to the atom bombs was unparalleled. 
From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war."
https://hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Those two bombs shocked Japan and ended a war that otherwise would have seen the loss of countless Asian lives -- including the lives of many Japanese. Sadly they were too late to save the lives of millions of Asians raped and murdered by the Japanese war machine.


----------



## Tish

SeaBreeze said:


> Can you see this one?  Thank you Arnold.  I read this is trending on Russian social media, a very good thing.


Thank you, Arnold.


----------



## Tish

Vladimir Putin is in "a total panic" about a revolution in Moscow which is why he is trying "so brutally to snuff out the flame of freedom in Ukraine", Boris Johnson has said

Latest


----------



## squatting dog

ElCastor said:


> "Japan's barbarism in the months and years leading up to the atom bombs was unparalleled.
> From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war."
> https://hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM
> 
> Those two bombs shocked Japan and ended a war that otherwise would have seen the loss of countless Asian lives -- including the lives of many Japanese. Sadly they were too late to save the lives of millions of Asians raped and murdered by the Japanese war machine.


I understand the logic behind the atomic bombs, and it probably made sense back then, However, that came later. (August 6th) The napalm filled bombs that targeted Tokyo on March 10th were designed and used to crispy fry and terrify civilians.  All I'm saying is there are times Americans seem to have a selective memory when condemning other countries for their atrocities.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

@hollydolly You asked _"would it be a jumping from the frying pan into the fire situation.." _There's two sayings that come to mind...."Stick with the evil you know" and "You know what you got but you don't know what you're going to get." I'm not saying that Putin shouldn't be relieved of command, especially under the circumstances but Lord help us if he is and whoever takes his places *does* turn out to be worse!


----------



## OneEyedDiva

SeaBreeze said:


> Can you see this one?  Thank you Arnold.  I read this is trending on Russian social media, a very good thing.


Wow! I saw on the news that he had addressed the Russian people but hadn't taken time to watch the video. Excellent speech and I hope it's circulation will make a difference. I've always liked Arnie. I thank him too for this.


----------



## ElCastor

squatting dog said:


> I understand the logic behind the atomic bombs, and it probably made sense back then, However, that came later. (August 6th) The napalm filled bombs that targeted Tokyo on March 10th were designed and used to crispy fry and terrify civilians.  All I'm saying is there are times Americans seem to have a selective memory when condemning other countries for their atrocities.


The firebombing of Tokyo was intended to shock Japan into ending the war. Had it succeeded, the next step, two atomic bombs, would not have been necessary. 

This is what the United States was fighting to stop in that terrible war:
"The invasion of Shanghai in August 1937 was followed by the Nanking (Nanjing) Massacre known as the “Rape of Nanking.” It was the beginning of a seven week reign of terror in which the conquering Japanese army went on a wild rampage; looting, torturing, beheading, burying alive, burning, and gang- raping at will. An estimated 300,000 unarmed Chinese soldiers and civilians were shot or bayoneted; and an estimated 80,000 Chinese women in Nanjing were raped—at the rate of 1,000 rape cases a night – and many mutilated and killed."
https://ahrp.org/1937-the-rape-of-nanking-nanjing/

Unless you have a strong stomach I would recommend against clicking the link. Japanese soldiers of that era delighted in first raping and then decapitating women, and the wholesale massacre of babies. Persuading them to halt their war took more than reasonable arguments.


----------



## Paco Dennis

_"The Ukraine invasion is nothing compared to Iraq_​_Russian actions in Ukraine deserve universal condemnation. But as crimes go, Putin’s aggression pales in comparison with the human toll exacted by Saddam Hussein’s US-supported war of choice against Iran. As for the calamitous results of the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, the impact of Russia’s incursion into Ukraine rates as trivial by comparison. The point is not to measure relative iniquity in a balance, but simply to note that while the ongoing events in Ukraine may be tragic, they are not all that unusual. The professed surprise of pundits and politicians stems either from wishful thinking or willful ignorance.


History hasn’t ended. The global triumph of democratic liberalism is a mirage. As the old radio serial had it, “Evil lurks in the hearts of men,” even in an era of Google, Apple, 5G, Uber and Grubhub. What may be most difficult for the beneficiaries of global US hegemony is this: the American Century has ended. The world conjured up by Thomas Friedman has not taken its place.


What Friedman ought have written is this: “By invading Ukraine, Russia has demolished what little remained of the lucrative line of bullshit that I have been peddling for the past twenty or so years.” But don’t count on any such admission to be forthcoming."_

https://spectatorworld.com/topic/ukraine-invasion-nothing-compared-iraq-afghanistan/


----------



## AnnieA

jerry old said:


> What the Russians are doing is very mild compared to our actions in Iraq--due to a U.S. President...



Thing is, Iraq (and other conflicts) cross multiple administrations and parties.  Some of the long-term behind the scenes people from that administration are still in appointed positions currently.  I think people get confused when they see the term 'neo-conservative' and think that it means garden variety US conservative citizens who favor social issues such as heterosexual marriage etc. but that is not! what it means.  Neocons are sometimes front figureheads but are behind both parties and it means more 'war hawk' than anything.  Since the 80s, there were only four years they didn't hold power and those were scary too. All other presidents have been either outright neocons or managed by them.  ...Secretaries of states, senators, a first lady, daughter of a vice president...they're all on the same team when it comes to the very lucrative defense industry.  The Democrat vs Republican media circus is just that ..._ circenses... _to distract from the warmongers. Due to the Ukraine crisis, we really do currently need them, but historically, they've sometimes manufactured reasons for war and make  a lot of money from war whether or not it's justified.


----------



## David777

AnnieA said:


> ... Neocons are sometimes front figureheads but are behind both parties and it means more 'war hawk' than anything...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485693277655343107


----------



## mellowyellow

_The Russian administration has launched a sociological survey of Russians' expectations and their fears of a deteriorating economy due to sanctions and the war in Ukraine. The reason is that the Kremlin is expecting dissatisfaction with the government's actions to grow and wants to find out which war-related difficulties Russians will perceive most painfully._

Of course we know what the results of the survey will be.


----------



## mellowyellow

Mariupol's city council said several thousand residents had been forcibly deported into Russian territory over the past week. Russia "illegally took people" from Livoberezhniy district and from a sports club building which was being used by more than a thousand people as a bomb shelter.

The Kremlin has claimed buses carrying "refugees" from Mariupol began to arrive to Russia on Tuesday. They were taken to filtration camps, where the occupiers checked people's phones and documents. After the inspection, some Mariupol residents were redirected to remote cities in Russia; the fate of others remains unknown.


----------



## hollydolly

_*Authorities in the besieged Ukrainian port city of Mariupol say that the Russian military has bombed an art school where about 400 people had taken refuge. 
*
Local authorities said Sunday that the school building was destroyed and people could remain under the rubble, but there was no immediate word on casualties. 

Terrifying footage has emerged apparently showing Russia firing deadly thermobaric rockets which are claimed to melt human organs.

Moscow defence sources claimed: 'The TOS-1A Solntsepek was used against Ukrainian nationalists by the people's militia of the Donetsk People’s Republic with the support of the Russian army during a special operation in Ukraine.' 

Meanwhile, authorities in Ukraine's eastern city of Kharkiv say at least five civilians, including a nine-year-old boy, have been killed in the latest Russian shelling. 

Earlier Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Russia's siege of the port city was 'a terror that will be remembered for centuries to come'. 

His comments came after local authorities said Russian troops had forcefully deported several thousand people from the besieged city last week, after Russia had spoken of 'refugees' arriving from the strategic port. 

'Over the past week, several thousand Mariupol residents were deported onto the Russian territory,' the city council said in a statement on its Telegram channel late on Saturday. 

'The occupiers illegally took people from the Livoberezhniy district and from the shelter in the sports club building, where more than a thousand people (mostly women and children) were hiding from the constant bombing.'

Zelensky said the siege of Mariupol would 'go down in history of responsibility for war crimes'.

'To do this to a peaceful city... is a terror that will be remembered for centuries to come.'





_
A man helps Ukrainian soldiers searching for bodies in the debris at a military school hit by Russian rockets, in Mykolaiv, southern Ukraine





satellite images show the collapsed remains of Mariupol theatre which was sheltering hundreds of children and their families before being levelled in a Russian airstrike





More than 1,300 people including women and babies are still feared trapped in the bombed ruins of a theatre in the besieged city of Mariupol (pictured)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-school-400-Ukrainians-sheltering-inside.html


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## charry




----------



## Nosy Bee-54

When it eventually ends, will it be worth it instead of negotiating? As with all wars, maybe we should ask the dead. Plus all that destruction of infrastructure is going to take years to rebuild. An unfortunate case of mental myopia!

Leadership and forethought were lacking!


----------



## jerry old

ElCastor said:


> The day after Pearl Harbor my dad, who was a licensed pilot, enlisted in the Army Air Corps. He was no moron! I served as an officer in the US Navy for 5 years, and I can assure you that the men I served with were not morons! The military screens all recruits with a so called AFQT -- Armed Forces Qualification Test, which is in reality an IQ test. Moronic IQ is defined as topping out at 69 or 70 -- well below minimum standards for service in the military.
> "The US military has minimum enlistment standards at about the IQ 85 level. There have been two experiments with lowering this to 80 but in both cases these men could not master soldiering well enough to justify their costs.[112]"
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient


I agree, the armed forces has little or no use for dummies.
However, have you read the links on Mcnamara's Boy's?
When a nation needs soldiers their are going to be 'incidents' that should not be...

I talked to a poor soul that was drafted in WW II in 1945.
His story is extremely humorous, I keep threatening myself to post it on the  Military Thread...


----------



## mellowyellow

I’m worried that Ukraine will never give up and eventually as weeks go by and the shelling continues to flatten the country, we will eventually decide to help and then all hell breaks lose.


----------



## AnnieA

mellowyellow said:


> I’m worried that Ukraine will never give up and eventually as weeks go by and the shelling continues to flatten the country, we will eventually decide to help and then all hell breaks lose.


 
I think Russia's going to push it beyond Ukraine regardless.  Part of me is terrified of that and part of me is so sick of sitting back and watching helpless civilians deliberately targeted.  It's like an unarmed crowd standing by and watching a few bullies with guns beat and rape victims because the people in the crowd are afraid that they'll get shot if they try to help.


----------



## SeaBreeze

David777 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485693277655343107


Gabbard and Carlson, two of Russia's most loyal cheerleaders and Putin's worshipers.  They play Carlson on Russian state TV, people like that keep Putin smiling and do nothing but help spread his propaganda in the United States.  I would not spread their lies and conspiracies any further than that network already has.  Too many gullible followers out there.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498687956919492617https://www.salon.com/2022/03/14/tr...lsi-gabbard-for-parroting-russian-propaganda/

More on Gabbard.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zachev...in-2021-is-a-putin-apologist/?sh=6658587c4cd6


----------



## Remy

If you didn't catch Fareed Zakaria's interview of Zelensky, it's well worth the watch.


----------



## AnnieA

SeaBreeze said:


> Gabbard and Carlson, two of Russia's most loyal cheerleaders and Putin's worshipers.  They play Carlson on Russian state TV, people like that keep Putin smiling and do nothing but help spread his propaganda in the United States.  I would not spread their lies and conspiracies any further than that network already has.  Too many gullible followers out there.
> https://www.salon.com/2022/03/14/tr...lsi-gabbard-for-parroting-russian-propaganda/
> 
> More on Gabbard.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/zachev...in-2021-is-a-putin-apologist/?sh=6658587c4cd6



I spent hours tracing the Neocon thing several days ago. What she said in the tweet you quoted isn't a conspiracy. You can trace one woman--Victoria Nuland--and see how a lot of Neocon dots connect. For some reason the Old Neocons and the Old Soviets really want their showdown.

Article about Nuland:

https://www.salon.com/2021/01/19/wh...s-a-key-player-in-bidens-foreign-policy-team/

Nuland's career started in 1993 as chief of staff to Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott. Lady has quite a resume.
.


----------



## mellowyellow

One of Putin's main goals is to divide the American people about Ukraine, seems it's already happening.


----------



## AnnieA

mellowyellow said:


> One of Putin's main goals is to divide the American people about Ukraine, seems it's already happening.



Well, that's certainly an easy goal to check off his list; he doesn't have to do a thing.  The US's polarized media whip those flames without effort on his part and most Americans blindly fall for it.  Ukraine is just one more thing in that regard.
.


----------



## hollydolly

Russian troops who have been captured by Ukrainian forces have urged their people to rise up against President Vladmir Putin as they tell the world of fellow soldiers being thrown in mass graves. 

A group of Russian soldiers spoke out against their government during a press conference with news agency Interfax-Ukraine, telling fellow citizens to not 'look at the zombies.' 

Alexei Zheleznyak, Mustafaev Mugsad, Igor Rudenko, Alexander Fomenko and others nearly wept as they told the press conference of their opposition to the Russian invasion, according to The Mirror. 

Mr Zheleznyak, a soldier of the 34th separate motorized rifle brigade stationed in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic of Russia, told the conference he warned Putin he would never be able to send enough troops to Ukraine to take over.

see the video here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eader-having-comrades-thrown-mass-graves.html


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

mellowyellow said:


> One of Putin's main goals is to divide the American people about Ukraine, seems it's already happening.


I guess Putin may be evil in many ways but don't feel he divided us. We have been this way for a long time on many homegrown issues. Especially during the last administration and since, certain Americans have found much to admire in dictators/strong men.


----------



## Ruthanne

mellowyellow said:


> One of Putin's main goals is to divide the American people about Ukraine, seems it's already happening.


And how is that?  All I've seen and heard here in the USA is total sympathy and caring for Ukraine.  We are taking in refugees and sending a lot of aid.


----------



## Paco Dennis

Public Expresses Mixed Views of U.S. Response to Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine​
https://www.pewresearch.org/politic...-u-s-response-to-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/


----------



## ElCastor

jerry old said:


> I agree, the armed forces has little or no use for dummies.
> However, have you read the links on Mcnamara's Boy's?
> When a nation needs soldiers their are going to be 'incidents' that should not be...


The essence of the military is following orders, and soldiers in the thick of things are not going to be able to read the NY Times. They do as they are told. During my last 6 months in the Navy I ran a brig on a base in Spain. The officer I relieved told me that one of the Marine guards, who had been transferred in from Vietnam, told him that he had watched prisoners pushed out of helicopters. I shrugged it off, but when I was discharged and returned to San Francisco I began to read about other unsavory aspects of that war -- although not the helicopter story at that time. I wrote the Secretary of The Navy and related what I had heard. He wrote back and explained that it was just a "sea story" -- a tall tale. There were a couple of other local exchanges. I wrote the Sec Nav back and resigned my reserve commission. That war was one Hell of a mistake, but you can blame the politicians for that, not the soldiers and the sailors.


----------



## hollydolly

*Now they've Bombed a Shopping Mall...*


_A huge explosion has rocked a shopping mall in Kyiv as rescuers pulled bloodied victims from the rubble amid reports up to six people have been killed.

The blast smashed the sprawling 'Retroville' and was so powerful it pulverised vehicles in its car park - leaving a massive crater - as well as bodies scattered in the carnage.

Mayor Vitali Klitschko this morning said it was one of several bombs to be dropped on the city, with others flattening homes nearby.

Kyiv department of the state emergency service said four people had been killed but there were reports as many as six were dead with dozens more missing in the debris.

Rescuers were continuing to trawl through the chaos this morning as they desperately searched for any more survivors of the latest horror attack to rock Ukraine.

It comes as Ukraine rejected Russian demands troops in the Black Sea port of Mariupol lay down their weapons and surrender in return for letting tens of thousands of civilians trapped in the heavily besieged city leave safely. 

Russian Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev laid out Moscow's offer late Sunday, saying Ukrainian troops and 'foreign mercenaries' who laid down their arms and raised white flags would be given safe passage.

But Mariupol rejected the demands within minutes, with Pyotr Andryushenko - an adviser to Mariupol mayor - saying Russian promises of amnesty could not be trusted and troops defending the city were determined to fight.

Elsewhere in the crisis overnight:
_

_The British Army banned WhatsApp over fears Russia is hacking it to get operationally sensitive information;_
_Boris Johnson is considering a quick trip to Kyiv to show support for Ukraine's battle against Vladimir Putin;_
_A heart-breaking new video showing the devastation Ukraine has suffered has now emerged on social media;_
_Volodymyr Zelensky's government suspended 11 Ukrainian political parties due to alleged links with Russia;_
_Joe Biden will travel to Poland Friday to discuss the international response to Russia's brutal war in Ukraine._











See the before and after pics of the shopping mall.. here.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...helling-leaves-civilians-dead-parts-Kyiv.html


----------



## mellowyellow

_A recent survey conducted by the Ukrainian research company Active Group  shows that 86.6% of Russians support the idea of launching an attack on a country of the European Union, including Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and Slovakia._
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/03...ntial-military-attack-on-eu-countries-survey/

Could this be his end game?


----------



## mellowyellow

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s mistress Alina Kabayeva faces expulsion from Switzerland, where she is likely hiding with her children. Citizens of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus appealed to the Swiss Confederation with a *petition *under the slogan _“connect Eva Braun” with her “Führer”_.


----------



## mellowyellow

_Russia is secretly transporting its dead and wounded soldiers to Belarus to disguise the true number of casualties in Ukraine, reports say.   Eyewitnesses told RadioFreeEurope that the morgue in Mazyr, Belarus, is overflowing with corpses and that wounded Russian troops are flooding the area's hospitals.   One eyewitness told the outlet that he had seen many "black sacks" being loaded from military ambulances onto Russian railway cars._


----------



## Jackie23

mellowyellow said:


> One of Putin's main goals is to divide the American people about Ukraine, seems it's already happening.



Of course it is....


Truth Is Another Front in Putin's War​Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2022, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: *New York Times

Truth Is Another Front in Putin's War*

Steven Lee Myers and Stuart A. Thompson
Sun, March 20, 2022, 10:48 AM

-snip-

Disinformation in wartime is as old as war itself, but today war unfolds in the age of social media and digital diplomacy. That has given Russia — and its allies in China and elsewhere — powerful means to prop up the claim that the invasion is justified, exploiting disinformation to rally its citizens at home and to discredit its enemies abroad. Truth has simply become another front in Russia’s war.

Using a barrage of increasingly outlandish falsehoods, President Vladimir Putin has created an alternative reality, one in which Russia is at war not with Ukraine but with a larger, more pernicious enemy in the West. Even since the war began, the lies have gotten more and more bizarre, transforming from claims that “true sovereignty” for Ukraine was possible only under Russia, made before the attacks, to those about migratory birds carrying bioweapons.

Russia’s message has proved successful domestically, where the Kremlin’s claims go unchallenged. Surveys suggest a majority of Russians support the war effort. Internationally, the campaign has seeped into an information ecosystem that allows them to spread virulently, reaching audiences that were once harder to reach.

-snip-

The power of Russia’s claim that the invasion is justified comes not from the veracity of any individual falsehood meant to support it but from the broader argument. Individual lies about bioweapons labs or crisis actors are advanced by Russia as swiftly as they are debunked, with little consistency or logic between them. But supporters stubbornly cling to the overarching belief that something is wrong in Ukraine and Russia will fix it. Those connections prove harder to shake, even as new evidence is introduced.

-snip-

Read more: https://news.yahoo.com/truth-another-front-putins-war-144843563.html

*EDIT*: _Corrected source as New York Times_

Original NYT link: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/20/world/asia/russia-putin-propaganda-media.html


----------



## Furryanimal

*Noted*
To identify Russian spies in Ukraine, soldiers are asking suspicious-looking strangers to pronounce _palianytsia_, the word for “loaf”, which Russian-speaking Ukrainians can say but Russians can’t. It’s a trick “at least 3,000 years old”, says Emma Duncan in The Times. The Old Testament recounts one Israelite tribe asking those who wanted to cross the River Jordan to say _shibboleth_ (“ear of corn”), which their enemies, the Ephraimites, pronounced _sibboleth_. Some 42,000 “failed the test and were slaughtered”.


----------



## FastTrax

jerry old said:


> I agree, the armed forces has little or no use for dummies.
> However, have you read the links on Mcnamara's Boy's?
> When a nation needs soldiers their are going to be 'incidents' that should not be...
> 
> I talked to a poor soul that was drafted in WW II in 1945.
> His story is extremely humorous, I keep threatening myself to post it on the  Military Thread...



Out with it jo. We overstressed SF seniors need a gud un. Specially moi.


----------



## mellowyellow

Decision time for the United Nations.
_Photographer: Michael M. Santiago/Getty Images

Members of the U.S. Congress rightly have been asking how countries that value security and freedom might remove Russia from the United Nations Security Council. In fact, it’s not impossible, as some have argued; or even unprecedented.

 In 1990, when Iraq’s Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and tried to wipe that country from the face of the earth, the Security Council took action. The Council demanded that Iraq immediately withdraw and, when Iraq refused, authorized the use of force to expel the aggressor. The Security Council today, by contrast, has not so much as censured Vladimir Putin, whose invasion of Ukraine poses a far greater threat to international peace and security.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...w-the-un-can-expel-russia-and-remain-relevant_


----------



## mellowyellow




----------



## Ruthanne

mellowyellow said:


> _A recent survey conducted by the Ukrainian research company Active Group  shows that 86.6% of Russians support the idea of launching an attack on a country of the European Union, including Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and Slovakia._
> https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/03...ntial-military-attack-on-eu-countries-survey/
> 
> Could this be his end game?


I certainly hope that does not happen.  I have relatives in the Czech Republic and Slovakia.


----------



## squatting dog

If you have followed the news from the Ukraine for the last 10 years, this war is not surprising.
The reasons are very different from the propaganda being pushed on you as news.

To understand what's happening, you need to study what has been ongoing for roughly eight years.
The eastern region of Donbas, is made up of people who are mostly Russian speaking and have a Russian heritage. 
The people in western Ukraine mostly speak Ukrainian and identify with a European heritage.

For this reason,Three breakaway republics (in 2014) voted overwhelmingly to leave the Ukraine.
But, for the past eight years, the western Ukraine military which includes,(the Nazi-aligned Azov Battalion) has killed over 14,000 civilians in eastern Ukraine (Donbas) exposing them to barbaric attacks, including blockade, large-scale punitive operations, terrorist attacks and artillery bombardments.

"Why? In retaliation for their attempts to press for basic human rights to live in accordance with the laws and traditions of their ancestors, to use their mother tongue and to rear the children the way they wish."

read about the Azov battalion here.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Azov+Battalion


----------



## mellowyellow

Leading Russian chess grandmaster Sergey Karjakin has been suspended from playing for six months for publicly supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The 32-year-old player is an outspoken supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin.


----------



## hollydolly

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 214064
> 
> Leading Russian chess grandmaster Sergey Karjakin has been suspended from playing for six months for publicly supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The 32-year-old player is an outspoken supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin.


suspended by whom tho' ?..


----------



## Ruthanne

FastTrax said:


> Out with it jo. We overstressed SF seniors need a gud un. Specially moi.


What's a gud un?


----------



## jerry old

Ruthanne said:


> What's a gud un?


a good one


----------



## Ruthanne

jerry old said:


> a good one


Thanks


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"The first casualty of war is truth." There is always propaganda and misinformation from both sides.


----------



## mellowyellow

hollydolly said:


> suspended by whom tho' ?..


Hi Holly, apparently the The International Chess Federation (FIDE) said in a statement that Karjakin's comments about the invasion had been widely condemned.


----------



## FastTrax

Ruthanne said:


> What's a gud un?





jerry old said:


> a good one



Hey Ruthanne how about thanking me? I'm the one that said gud un.


----------



## Ruthanne

FastTrax said:


> Hey Ruthanne how about thanking me? I'm the one that said gud un.


Ok.  Thanks for confusing me Fast Trax.  I need more of these mind altering experiences


----------



## Furryanimal

squatting dog said:


> If you have followed the news from the Ukraine for the last 10 years, this war is not surprising.
> The reasons are very different from the propaganda being pushed on you as news.
> 
> To understand what's happening, you need to study what has been ongoing for roughly eight years.
> The eastern region of Donbas, is made up of people who are mostly Russian speaking and have a Russian heritage.
> The people in western Ukraine mostly speak Ukrainian and identify with a European heritage.
> 
> For this reason,Three breakaway republics (in 2014) voted overwhelmingly to leave the Ukraine.
> But, for the past eight years, the western Ukraine military which includes,(the Nazi-aligned Azov Battalion) has killed over 14,000 civilians in eastern Ukraine (Donbas) exposing them to barbaric attacks, including blockade, large-scale punitive operations, terrorist attacks and artillery bombardments.
> 
> "Why? In retaliation for their attempts to press for basic human rights to live in accordance with the laws and traditions of their ancestors, to use their mother tongue and to rear the children the way they wish."
> 
> read about the Azov battalion here.
> https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Azov+Battalion


This sounds like it is written by Russia.....Ukrainians,after the initial Russian attacks in 2014 ,have only responded to provocation.
They have not killed 14,000 people....that is simply the number of casualties in a war the West largely ignored.
And the referendum in Crimea,organised by Russia is hardly to be believed!


----------



## squatting dog

Ok Furry. how about the media headlines about Ukraine before the war began. 
They labeled the war-torn country as “the most corrupt nation in Europe” with an “increasingly corrupt and authoritarian” leader and said that he is seeking to deepen an “alliance with the far-right.”
So now we’re supposed to just veer away from the narrative that was being pushed just a couple short years ago.
Plus...   Now, we openly support Neo-Nazi's...(the real deal)... our govt just sent  $800 million in military aid dollars out of the 1.4 Trillion aid package!!  It’s obvious that this American-supplied weaponry will reach the Azov battalion in Ukraine.

I swear, some people have a 6 second attention span unless it's a $100m Hollywood production budget.


----------



## hollydolly

squatting dog said:


> Ok Furry. how about the media headlines about Ukraine before the war began.
> They labeled the war-torn country as “the most corrupt nation in Europe” with an “increasingly corrupt and authoritarian” leader and said that he is seeking to deepen an “alliance with the far-right.”
> So now we’re supposed to just veer away from the narrative that was being pushed just a couple short years ago.
> Plus...   Now, we openly support Neo-Nazi's...(the real deal)... our govt just sent  $800 million in military aid dollars out of the 1.4 Trillion aid package!!  It’s obvious that this American-supplied weaponry will reach the Azov battalion in Ukraine.
> 
> I swear, some people have a 6 second attention span unless it's a $100m Hollywood production budget.


...and even supposing all that is true... how does it give Putin the right to deliberately..and there's no doubt it was deliberate... to kill children... ?.. just playing devils' advocate here, not going to get into any big debate about whose mostly in the wrong.. but you don't go killing children, when no-one has caused you or your country harm...


----------



## jerry old

Fur and Dog  have a point...

War and other behaviors?  
What happened in the last two decades, the last two centuries, effects the behavior of nations.
Nations do not decide, 'Okay, today, I'm going to invade my neighbor.'


----------



## squatting dog

hollydolly said:


> ...and even supposing all that is true... how does it give Putin the right to deliberately..and there's no doubt it was deliberate... to kill children... ?.. just playing devils' advocate here, not going to get into any big debate about whose mostly in the wrong.. but you don't go killing children, when no-one has caused you or your country harm...


I never said Putin is right,  I merely pointed out how media manipulation works and how short some memories are.


----------



## mellowyellow

In 1941, when Odesa was bracing for an attack by the Nazis, the city fortified itself from the inside out. Now, more than eight decades later, it's doing it again. They are on high alert, particularly for Russian warships on the horizon, knowing that Russian-controlled Crimea is only about 300 kilometres away by water.


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> Russian troops who have been captured by Ukrainian forces have urged their people to rise up against President Vladmir Putin as they tell the world of fellow soldiers being thrown in mass graves.
> 
> A group of Russian soldiers spoke out against their government during a press conference with news agency Interfax-Ukraine, telling fellow citizens to not 'look at the zombies.'
> 
> Alexei Zheleznyak, Mustafaev Mugsad, Igor Rudenko, Alexander Fomenko and others nearly wept as they told the press conference of their opposition to the Russian invasion, according to The Mirror.
> 
> Mr Zheleznyak, a soldier of the 34th separate motorized rifle brigade stationed in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic of Russia, told the conference he warned Putin he would never be able to send enough troops to Ukraine to take over.
> 
> see the video here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eader-having-comrades-thrown-mass-graves.html


That had me in tears.


----------



## Tish

Has anyone noticed that Putin is playing this in stages, that get more intense with every wave?
First, Tanks then missiles that suck the oxygen out of people, then bombing he got away with that so next he carpet bombs them, and as usual, he waits for the West to react.
How long do you think it will be before he uses chemical weapons?
He is not going to stop until someone stops him.
Send a  covert operation military team to take him out, I know that most people think, well how do we know who replaces him isn't worse? Worse or not, at least they might think twice.


----------



## Ruthanne

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 214183
> 
> In 1941, when Odesa was bracing for an attack by the Nazis, the city fortified itself from the inside out. Now, more than eight decades later, it's doing it again. They are on high alert, particularly for Russian warships on the horizon, knowing that Russian-controlled Crimea is only about 300 kilometres away by water.


Where is Odessa?


----------



## hollydolly

Ruthanne said:


> Where is Odessa?


Odessa is a sea port and one of the largest cities  in Ukraine about 200 miles away from Kyiv


----------



## Pepper

That's where my grandma was from:  Odesa.


----------



## Ruthanne

hollydolly said:


> Odessa is a sea port and one of the largest cities  in Ukraine about 200 miles away from Kyiv


Thank you.


----------



## hollydolly

_Vladimir Putin has been accused of using banned white phosphorus weapons in Ukraine amid fears he may be on the verge of resorting to chemical warfare.

US President Joe Biden said Putin has become increasingly desperate, with his 'back against the wall' over his stalling invasion.

Mr Biden said that recent Kremlin propaganda claiming the US and Ukraine had chemical or biological weapons were a clear sign that Moscow was 'considering using both of those'.

Elsewhere, the Kremlin's press secretary Dmitry Peskov repeatedly refused to rule out that Russia would consider using nuclear weapons, telling TV station CNN it could do so if there was 'an existential threat for our country'.

The Ukrainian authorities have accused Putin of using white phosphorus munitions on the city of Kramatorsk.

While strictly not considered a chemical weapon, the substance burns fiercely and can cause horrendous injuries, and its use on civilians constitutes a war crime. 

Human Rights Watch says the incendiary weapons are 'among the cruellest' in modern warfare as they cause 'lifelong human suffering'.

The deputy head of Kyiv police, Oleksiy Biloshytskiy, said on Facebook: 'Another use of phosphorus ammunitions in Kramatorsk.'






https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/23/01/55681123-10641525-image-a-1_1647997692803.jpg
_


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> _Vladimir Putin has been accused of using banned white phosphorus weapons in Ukraine amid fears he may be on the verge of resorting to chemical warfare.
> 
> US President Joe Biden said Putin has become increasingly desperate, with his 'back against the wall' over his stalling invasion.
> 
> Mr Biden said that recent Kremlin propaganda claiming the US and Ukraine had chemical or biological weapons were a clear sign that Moscow was 'considering using both of those'.
> 
> Elsewhere, the Kremlin's press secretary Dmitry Peskov repeatedly refused to rule out that Russia would consider using nuclear weapons, telling TV station CNN it could do so if there was 'an existential threat for our country'.
> 
> The Ukrainian authorities have accused Putin of using white phosphorus munitions on the city of Kramatorsk.
> 
> While strictly not considered a chemical weapon, the substance burns fiercely and can cause horrendous injuries, and its use on civilians constitutes a war crime.
> 
> Human Rights Watch says the incendiary weapons are 'among the cruellest' in modern warfare as they cause 'lifelong human suffering'.
> 
> The deputy head of Kyiv police, Oleksiy Biloshytskiy, said on Facebook: 'Another use of phosphorus ammunitions in Kramatorsk.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03/23/01/55681123-10641525-image-a-1_1647997692803.jpg_


And there you have it!
Does anyone care to guess what his next move will be?


----------



## hollydolly

Tish said:


> And there you have it!
> Does anyone care to guess what his next move will be?


it's extremely concerning.. if he does this.. we're all in it whether we want to be or not...


----------



## hollydolly

*British gas prices have risen after Vladimir Putin declared today that Russia will only accept roubles as payment from 'unfriendly' countries in retaliation for sanctions imposed over his invasion of Ukraine.      
*
_'Russia will continue, of course, to supply natural gas in accordance with volumes and prices... fixed in previously concluded contracts,' Putin said, adding that sanctions had 'destroyed Moscow's trust'. 

'The changes will only affect the currency of payment, which will be changed to Russian roubles' for a list of countries, corresponding to those that have imposed sanctions.

Wholesale gas prices in the UK rose following the announcement, with the British price for day-ahead delivery jumping by 18 per cent to 259.50 pence per therm by 13:54 GMT, while the winter 2022 price rose by 11 per cent to 264.01 p/therm. 

Putin said the government and central bank had one week to come up with a solution on how to move these operations to the Russian currency and that gas giant Gazprom would be ordered to make the corresponding changes to gas contracts.

Contractual changes may mean European customers have to renegotiate their agreements, which are mostly in euros, possibly leading to supply disruptions as talks take place. 

But with a host of European countries still dependent on Moscow for most of their gas and oil supplies, disruptions would push up prices and deepen the continent-wide energy crisis.  

The move is also expected to boost the Russian currency which fell to a record low of 120 to the dollar this month following the invasion of Ukraine, despite usually trading around 80 to the dollar. 

*The list of 'unfriendly' countries includes the United States, European Union member states, Britain, Japan, Canada, Norway, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland and Ukraine. Among other things, deals with companies and individuals from those countries have to be approved by a government commission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...roubles-payment-gas-unfriendly-countries.html*_


----------



## David777

Balanced realistic Time Magazine peace plan.

A Realistic Plan for Peace for Ukraine and Russia   by Michael O'Hanlon
​https://time.com/6159799/ukraine-russia-peace-plan/


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

hollydolly said:


> *British gas prices have risen after Vladimir Putin declared today that Russia will only accept roubles as payment from 'unfriendly' countries in retaliation for sanctions imposed over his invasion of Ukraine.      *
> 
> _'Russia will continue, of course, to supply natural gas in accordance with volumes and prices... fixed in previously concluded contracts,' Putin said, adding that sanctions had 'destroyed Moscow's trust'.
> 
> 'The changes will only affect the currency of payment, which will be changed to Russian roubles' for a list of countries, corresponding to those that have imposed sanctions.
> 
> Wholesale gas prices in the UK rose following the announcement, with the British price for day-ahead delivery jumping by 18 per cent to 259.50 pence per therm by 13:54 GMT, while the winter 2022 price rose by 11 per cent to 264.01 p/therm.
> 
> Putin said the government and central bank had one week to come up with a solution on how to move these operations to the Russian currency and that gas giant Gazprom would be ordered to make the corresponding changes to gas contracts.
> 
> Contractual changes may mean European customers have to renegotiate their agreements, which are mostly in euros, possibly leading to supply disruptions as talks take place.
> 
> But with a host of European countries still dependent on Moscow for most of their gas and oil supplies, disruptions would push up prices and deepen the continent-wide energy crisis.
> 
> The move is also expected to boost the Russian currency which fell to a record low of 120 to the dollar this month following the invasion of Ukraine, despite usually trading around 80 to the dollar.
> 
> *The list of 'unfriendly' countries includes the United States, European Union member states, Britain, Japan, Canada, Norway, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland and Ukraine. Among other things, deals with companies and individuals from those countries have to be approved by a government commission.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...roubles-payment-gas-unfriendly-countries.html*_


This does not surprise me. For example, for decades we pushed Iran and Cuba around because they have limited power. That won't work with Russia in this case or China at anytime in the future. Russia is now responding as expected. No different than China did every time we impose tariffs during the previous administration.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

David777 said:


> Balanced realistic Time Magazine peace plan.
> 
> A Realistic Plan for Peace for Ukraine and Russia   by Michael O'Hanlon
> ​https://time.com/6159799/ukraine-russia-peace-plan/


I would have read it but to do so it's requesting that I need to create an account. Decline!


----------



## Furryanimal

I have heard from my friend in Ukraine( mentioned below).
she is okay for now.


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> it's extremely concerning.. if he does this.. we're all in it whether we want to be or not...


I agree with you 100% it's a very scary situation.


----------



## Ruthanne

hollydolly said:


> *British gas prices have risen after Vladimir Putin declared today that Russia will only accept roubles as payment from 'unfriendly' countries in retaliation for sanctions imposed over his invasion of Ukraine.      *
> 
> _'Russia will continue, of course, to supply natural gas in accordance with volumes and prices... fixed in previously concluded contracts,' Putin said, adding that sanctions had 'destroyed Moscow's trust'.
> 
> 'The changes will only affect the currency of payment, which will be changed to Russian roubles' for a list of countries, corresponding to those that have imposed sanctions.
> 
> Wholesale gas prices in the UK rose following the announcement, with the British price for day-ahead delivery jumping by 18 per cent to 259.50 pence per therm by 13:54 GMT, while the winter 2022 price rose by 11 per cent to 264.01 p/therm.
> 
> Putin said the government and central bank had one week to come up with a solution on how to move these operations to the Russian currency and that gas giant Gazprom would be ordered to make the corresponding changes to gas contracts.
> 
> Contractual changes may mean European customers have to renegotiate their agreements, which are mostly in euros, possibly leading to supply disruptions as talks take place.
> 
> But with a host of European countries still dependent on Moscow for most of their gas and oil supplies, disruptions would push up prices and deepen the continent-wide energy crisis.
> 
> The move is also expected to boost the Russian currency which fell to a record low of 120 to the dollar this month following the invasion of Ukraine, despite usually trading around 80 to the dollar.
> 
> *The list of 'unfriendly' countries includes the United States, European Union member states, Britain, Japan, Canada, Norway, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland and Ukraine. Among other things, deals with companies and individuals from those countries have to be approved by a government commission.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...roubles-payment-gas-unfriendly-countries.html*_


Putin talks about destroying trust for Russia.  Well, who on Earth trusts him now?  Geez


----------



## Paco Dennis




----------



## mellowyellow

NATO estimates that between 7,000 to 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed since the beginning of the war. By way of comparison, Russia lost about 15,000 troops over 10 years in Afghanistan. The estimate was based on information from Ukrainian authorities and what Russia released intentionally or not….

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...enskiy-as-he-decries-constant-bombing-of-city


----------



## mellowyellow




----------



## Murrmurr

mellowyellow said:


> _A recent survey conducted by the Ukrainian research company Active Group  shows that 86.6% of Russians support the idea of launching an attack on a country of the European Union, including Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and Slovakia._
> https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/03...ntial-military-attack-on-eu-countries-survey/
> 
> Could this be his end game?


There's a new law in Russia that says you can get up to 15 years in prison for dissension. I don't think we should put much stock in any polling of the Russian people right now.


----------



## SeniorBen

mellowyellow said:


> NATO estimates that between 7,000 to 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed since the beginning of the war. By way of comparison, Russia lost about 15,000 troops over 10 years in Afghanistan. The estimate was based on information from Ukrainian authorities and what Russia released intentionally or not….
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...enskiy-as-he-decries-constant-bombing-of-city


The sad thing is, a lot of those Russian soldiers had no idea what their mission was until the invasion began and were lied to about Ukraine's hostilities. They were told that Ukraine was an imminent danger to Russia and was going to attack, so Russia had to attack them first for national security.

Many of the Russian soldiers were in the military purely as a way to survive under Putin's oppressive regime and had absolutely no ill will towards the Ukrainian people. Their families, on the other hand, may have a bit of ill will towards Putin once the corpses start arriving home. Given Putin's character, he'll probably make the dead soldiers families' pay for the burials.


----------



## ElCastor

mellowyellow said:


> _Russia is secretly transporting its dead and wounded soldiers to Belarus to disguise the true number of casualties in Ukraine, reports say.   Eyewitnesses told RadioFreeEurope that the morgue in Mazyr, Belarus, is overflowing with corpses and that wounded Russian troops are flooding the area's hospitals.   One eyewitness told the outlet that he had seen many "black sacks" being loaded from military ambulances onto Russian railway cars._


Reports on today's news have the death count of Russian soldiers at 15,000. I doubt that Putin cares.


----------



## mellowyellow

Smoke rises after shelling near a seaport in Berdyansk, Ukraine, on March 24. (AP)

_The port of Berdyansk in southern Ukraine was rocked by a series of heavy explosions soon after dawn on Thursday. Several Russian ships had been unloading military equipment at Berdyansk in recent days, according to reports from the port by Russian media outlets.

The Ukrainian armed forces said that, besides destroying the Orsk, "two more ships were damaged. A 3,000-ton fuel tank was also destroyed. The fire spread to the enemy's ammunition depot. Details of the damage inflicted on the occupier are being clarified."_


----------



## mellowyellow

*Source: *Zelenskyy's video address, including _inter alia_ address to Russians

*Verbatim: *"We are doing everything to end this war. And when we succeed - it will happen without a doubt - you will be sure of at least one thing: your children will no longer be sent to die on our land, on our territory. Therefore, you, the citizens of Russia, should also be interested in peace." "Save your sons from the war. Tell the truth about the war. And if you can leave Russia to avoid paying your taxes sustaining the war, do it. "

"Isn't that nonsense? Your state collects taxes from you to make you poorer, to isolate you from the world, to make it easier to control you, and to make it easier to send you to war to die."


----------



## David777

Informative from an insider citizen. Great command over language and motivations at deeper levels, entertaining incl some good laughs at media.

Watch This Russian Journalist and Former Politician Predict the Outcome in Ukraine Back in April 2021


----------



## SeaBreeze

Sounds like a little bit of good news for the Ukrainians.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507068901649178629


----------



## JustBonee

My thoughts always go to the animals in any terrible  situation,  and especially in this tragic war.
Different organizations and groups are trying to save as many dogs as they can ..  This tears at my heart. 

https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/hero-vet-braves-ukraine-battle-zone-to-rescue-animals/

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-60593791

They have a Zoo  in Ukraine too,    and some of the animals have been transported out of the country.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/24/simba-the-lion-wolf-safely-evacuated-from-war-torn-ukraine/


----------



## SeaBreeze

Bonnie said:


> My thoughts always go to the animals in any terrible  situation,  and especially in this tragic war.
> Different organizations and groups are trying to save as many dogs as they can ..  This tears at my heart.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2022/03/21/hero-vet-braves-ukraine-battle-zone-to-rescue-animals/
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-60593791
> 
> They have a Zoo  in Ukraine too,    and some of the animals have been transported out of the country.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2022/03/24/simba-the-lion-wolf-safely-evacuated-from-war-torn-ukraine/


I feel bad about the animals too Bonnie, I had heard about that Zoo.  Bless all the good people helping these desperate Ukrainians and their pets.  I can't imagine going through what they are.   Here's a Ukrainian woman fleeing with her dog and two cats, my heart goes out to all these people.  Hoping soon this genocide by Putin comes to a halt and they cant get back to their normal life there.  Russia/Putin needs to pay for all the destruction his senseless war has cause Ukraine, I won't hold my breath though.


----------



## Tish

What the Hell? Putin has just put a bid in to hold the European Football championships in the year 2028.
Has he completely lost his mind?

After threatening the West he wants to play football with the world.
Like anyone in the West or Europe will consider sending him Hostages.

Full Story


----------



## dseag2

Tish said:


> What the Hell? Putin has just put a bid in to hold the European Football championships in the year 2028.
> Has he completely lost his mind?
> 
> After threatening the West he wants to play football with the world.
> Like anyone in the West or Europe will consider sending him Hostages.
> 
> Full Story


Yes, I truly believe he has lost his mind and any semblance of being in touch with reality.  That's what isolationism and narcissism does to someone.


----------



## SeaBreeze

40 min. podcast from NPR public radio about some things that may have led up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  For those interested.



> On a recent reporting trip to cover Russia's invasion of Ukraine, _Time _reporter Simon Shuster visited an air base on the Polish side of the Ukrainian-Polish border. Watching as U.S. planes brought in loads of weapons for Ukraine, Shuster felt like he was standing on the brink of something massive.
> 
> "What you see is basically a constant cycle of these enormous C-17 military cargo planes landing, unloading their cargo, taking off again, day and night," he says. "Standing there, there is a bit of a feeling in the pit of your stomach that we are on the edge of a really era-defining war. We're already in it."
> 
> Born in Moscow, Shuster immigrated with his family to the U.S. in 1989_. _He reported on the EU and the former Soviet Union for _Time _from 2013 to 2020  (he's now based in New York for _Time_) and has interviewed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy three times. Shuster describes Zelenskyy's wartime leadership as a "lesson in courage."
> 
> Clearly, Russia was planning this war for a long time. Putin had this in mind, at least as a possibility for a long time. And what he did in imprisoning Navalny and banning his political organization was he essentially destroyed the main group, the main political leader who could mount an anti-war movement in Russia. He did that well before he launched this invasion. And we can't say for sure whether the two events were connected, but with hindsight, it does look like Putin was preparing the political field in Russia to prevent any kind of organized anti-war movement from arising once the invasion was underway.



https://www.npr.org/2022/03/24/1088480292/ukraine-russia-war-simon-shuster


----------



## Tish

dseag2 said:


> Yes, I truly believe he has lost his mind and any semblance of being in touch with reality.  That's what isolationism and narcissism does to someone.


I agree with you, he is completely detached.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Tish said:


> What the Hell? Putin has just put a bid in to hold the European Football championships in the year 2028.
> Has he completely lost his mind?
> 
> After threatening the West he wants to play football with the world.
> Like anyone in the West or Europe will consider sending him Hostages.
> 
> Full Story


He's a selfish tyrant, drunk with power, power that he finds himself slowly losing due to his brutal genocide in Ukraine.  Most of these types are psycho.


----------



## SeaBreeze

dseag2 said:


> Yes, I truly believe he has lost his mind and any semblance of being in touch with reality. * That's what isolationism and narcissism does to someone*.


Absolutely!


----------



## JonSR77

Ukraine Punk Band Does Version of "London Calling"






+++

Kyiv calling: famous Clash anthem reborn as call to arms​Ukrainian punk band Beton win blessing of the Clash to record new version of song


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ous-clash-anthem-reborn-as-call-to-arms-beton


----------



## JonSR77

On Ukraine - by former Russian Ambassador Michael McFaul

Ambassador McFaul is fluent in Russian, expert in Russian affairs, met with Putin, personally, endless times.  Has real insight.  Not just some media pundit. 

(scroll down about 1 page for recent articles)

https://michaelmcfaul.com/?fbclid=IwAR3p0cqtD1b9YVQZ9dDGhFb7u7TizfWhfepxHW_6jIX9wFiuMGR2gl11H9M


----------



## hollydolly

Tish said:


> What the Hell? Putin has just put a bid in to hold the European Football championships in the year 2028.
> Has he completely lost his mind?
> 
> After threatening the West he wants to play football with the world.
> Like anyone in the West or Europe will consider sending him Hostages.
> 
> Full Story


I feel the man has lost his senses. I actually think he's become insane, something is very wrong with him...


----------



## hollydolly

JonSR77 said:


> On Ukraine - by former Russian Ambassador Michael McFaul
> 
> Ambassador McFaul is fluent in Russian, expert in Russian affairs, met with Putin, personally, endless times.  Has real insight.  Not just some media pundit.
> 
> (scroll down about 1 page for recent articles)
> 
> https://michaelmcfaul.com/?fbclid=IwAR3p0cqtD1b9YVQZ9dDGhFb7u7TizfWhfepxHW_6jIX9wFiuMGR2gl11H9M


----------



## JustBonee

Ghoulish behavior 
...  and everyday, week after week,  it's playing out in slow motion.

I would like to think that someone, somewhere,  is trying to "get"  him,  and end this insanity.


----------



## Remy

hollydolly said:


> I feel the man has lost his senses. I actually think he's become insane, something is very wrong with him...


Agreed. I said from day one of this attack that it was a war crime and Putin needs to be taken out. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.


----------



## SeniorBen

Remy said:


> Agreed. I said from day one of this attack that it was a war crime and Putin needs to be taken out. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.


I keep hoping that the military turns on him — either by refusing to continue the genocide against the Ukrainian people or by "taking him out."


----------



## todalake

The Russians have stopped moving toward Kyiv.   This may mean a nuclear strike or chemical strike on Kyiv.   Nothing can be ruled out with Putin.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> Russian troops who have been captured by Ukrainian forces have urged their people to rise up against President Vladmir Putin as they tell the world of fellow soldiers being thrown in mass graves.
> 
> A group of Russian soldiers spoke out against their government during a press conference with news agency Interfax-Ukraine, telling fellow citizens to not 'look at the zombies.'
> 
> Alexei Zheleznyak, Mustafaev Mugsad, Igor Rudenko, Alexander Fomenko and others nearly wept as they told the press conference of their opposition to the Russian invasion, according to The Mirror.
> 
> Mr Zheleznyak, a soldier of the 34th separate motorized rifle brigade stationed in the Karachay-Cherkess Republic of Russia, told the conference he warned Putin he would never be able to send enough troops to Ukraine to take over.
> 
> see the video here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eader-having-comrades-thrown-mass-graves.html


I'm glad those soldiers have the gumption to speak up...the Russian people need to know the truth from sources they deem credible. The Ukrainian forces ain't no joke either! I continue to be amazed by their fortitude and am praying for all the Ukrainian people.


----------



## Tish

SeaBreeze said:


> He's a selfish tyrant, drunk with power, power that he finds himself slowly losing due to his brutal genocide in Ukraine.  Most of these types are psycho.


He has to be psycho.
*Sigh* all those people and innocent animals, it just breaks my heart.


----------



## Tish

SeaBreeze said:


> 40 min. podcast from NPR public radio about some things that may have led up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  For those interested.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2022/03/24/1088480292/ukraine-russia-war-simon-shuster


Thank you for the link to the podcast, listening to it now.


----------



## Tish

todalake said:


> The Russians have stopped moving toward Kyiv.   This may mean a nuclear strike or chemical strike on Kyiv.   Nothing can be ruled out with Putin.


God, I pray not, but it has been on the table from day one.


----------



## mellowyellow

_President Erdogan calls on Putin to make an honourable exit from the war. The main point of contention between the two countries was the status of Crimea and the separatist-controlled regions of Donbas and Luhansk. “I think Zelensky made a good move by offering a referendum" he said._

I'm a bit surprised at Erdogan, I thought he was another dictator like Putin.


----------



## mellowyellow

Kremlin says Russia would not be upset if it gets kicked out of the G20 for invading Ukraine and would focus on different countries for allies.


----------



## mellowyellow

Russia’s lone aircraft carrier is headed back to the shipyard for repairs until September


----------



## dseag2

JonSR77 said:


> On Ukraine - by former Russian Ambassador Michael McFaul
> 
> Ambassador McFaul is fluent in Russian, expert in Russian affairs, met with Putin, personally, endless times.  Has real insight.  Not just some media pundit.
> 
> (scroll down about 1 page for recent articles)
> 
> https://michaelmcfaul.com/?fbclid=IwAR3p0cqtD1b9YVQZ9dDGhFb7u7TizfWhfepxHW_6jIX9wFiuMGR2gl11H9M


Great insight.  Thank you for sharing.  Someone mentioned in another thread that Putin views our current leadership as weak, which is why he chose to invade Ukraine during this administration.  He clarified that wasn't his view but Putin's.

I personally think Putin views anyone who isn't a deranged, narcissistic psychopath as weak.


----------



## dseag2

mellowyellow said:


> _President Erdogan calls on Putin to make an honourable exit from the war. The main point of contention between the two countries was the status of Crimea and the separatist-controlled regions of Donbas and Luhansk. “I think Zelensky made a good move by offering a referendum" he said._
> 
> I'm a bit surprised at Erdogan, I thought he was another dictator like Putin.


Surprised as well.  He and Putin are cut from the same cloth.

https://www.realclearreligion.org/a...ainst_humanity_in_erdogans_turkey_661936.html

The crimes committed against Hizmet followers, including murder and kidnapping, and the measures perpetrated against perceived political enemies in and outside Turkey could be seen as "crimes against humanity" within the meaning of article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Under certain conditions, these crimes could be subject to universal jurisdiction.

Although "genocide" is an international legal term that focuses on the extermination of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group — and does not apply to actions carried out against a civil society movement like Hizmet —Erdogan’s targeting of the group fits a genocidal pattern of human-rights abuses. 

Erdogan has taken eight of scholar Gregory Stanton’s ten stages of genocide when it comes to Hizmet. The first stage is “Classification”—or “us and them.” In 2013, Erdogan blamed Hizmet and Gülen for a corruption probe against his government and began labeling Hizmet participants as traitors, a criminal network, and an enemy of the state. The second is “Symbolization”—or giving the group a new, defamatory name. The Hizmet movement was first talked about as a “parallel state structure” by Erdogan before he later introduced a distinctive and defamatory name, Fethullah’s Terrorist Organization (“FETO”)—an epithet that all officials and state-owned media use today.

The third stage is “Discrimination.” Hizmet participants repeatedly have been denied basic rights, including preventing them from accessing lawful employment, leaving the country and denying them legal counsel. The fourth stage is “Dehumanization.” During public rallies, Erdogan has described Hizmet participants as "leeches," "blood-sucking vampires," and "bloody assassins." Such language is reminiscent of the Nazi vocabulary and would constitute "hate speech" under the "hate crimes" legislation of many countries.

The fifth stage in Stanton’s analysis is "Organization." Victims’ reports state that there are specially formed torture units within the intelligence service targeting Hizmet participants. The sixth stage is "Polarization." Ongoing propaganda has made an accusation of association with the Hizmet movement certain to result in social ostracization.

The seventh stage is "Preparation." Erdogan and his supporters direct violent phrases at Hizmet participants, including "they will not have access to food and water" and "they will beg us to kill them to avoid torture." Widespread propaganda calls Hizmet participants "assassins," "terrorists" or pawns of foreign powers such as the CIA, Mossad or the Vatican. The eighth stage is "Persecution." The Turkish government investigated over 600,000 Hizmet supporters, of whom nearly 100,000 were sentenced to prison in politicized courts; 200,000 more await prosecution.

Erdogan's government has laid the groundwork for the final steps of the genocide ladder: extermination and denial. Now that Turkey holds office over an international body, will Erdogan feel emboldened to continue down this path? For Hizmet participants trapped in Turkey, including the kidnapped families, the unsubtle threat "if we don’t eradicate them, they will sink this country" may betray his intentions.


----------



## Furryanimal

This is interesting...is it the beginning of the end?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/bogged-down-ukraine-russia-moves-war-goalposts-2022-03-25/


----------



## Tish

Furryanimal said:


> This is interesting...is it the beginning of the end?
> https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/bogged-down-ukraine-russia-moves-war-goalposts-2022-03-25/


Then it is time the West gave them the long-range rockets, artillery, and drones as well as the intelligence needed to end this catastrophe.
The man is literally holding the West hostage with his threats of both chemical and nuclear weapons


----------



## Furryanimal

Tish said:


> Then it is time the West gave them the long-range rockets, artillery, and drones as well as the intelligence needed to end this catastrophe.
> The man is literally holding the West hostage with his threats of both chemical and nuclear weapons


I dug further and this is on Radio Free Europe....Russia have effectively claimed victory( we know it isn’t) and the war seems as if it is going to be confined to Donbas again..just like the last eight years.Could be an intriguing couple of days..



‘Russia's Defense Ministry has indicated that it has scaled back its goals in Ukraine, announcing on March 25 that the first phase of its military operation was complete and it would now focus on two eastern regions claimed by Russia-backed separatists.
"The main objectives of the first stage of the operation have generally been accomplished," said Sergei Rudskoi, the deputy chief of the Russian armed forces' General Staff.
"The combat potential of the armed forces of Ukraine has been considerably reduced, which...makes it possible to focus our core efforts on achieving the main goal, the liberation of the Donbas.’


Donbas was free of course until they attacked it in 2014.And shot that Malaysian plane down.


----------



## Tish

Furryanimal said:


> I dug further and this is on Radio Free Europe....Russia have effectively claimed victory( we know it isn’t) and the war seems as if it is going to be confined to Donbas again..just like the last eight years.Could be an intriguing couple of days..
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Russia's Defense Ministry has indicated that it has scaled back its goals in Ukraine, announcing on March 25 that the first phase of its military operation was complete and it would now focus on two eastern regions claimed by Russia-backed separatists.
> "The main objectives of the first stage of the operation have generally been accomplished," said Sergei Rudskoi, the deputy chief of the Russian armed forces' General Staff.
> "The combat potential of the armed forces of Ukraine has been considerably reduced, which...makes it possible to focus our core efforts on achieving the main goal, the liberation of the Donbas.’
> 
> 
> Donbas was free of course until they attacked it in 2014.And shot that Malaysian plane down.


Thank you for this @Furryanimal.


----------



## Murrmurr

Here's a great speech by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenburg. (7 minutes long)
This is the best speech I've heard since this thing started.


----------



## mellowyellow

Ukraine minister Anton Gerashchenko has claimed Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu suffered a heart attack after a heated confrontation with President Putin where Putin blamed him for the 'failure' of his special military operation in Ukraine.


----------



## JonSR77

SeniorBen said:


> I keep hoping that the military turns on him — either by refusing to continue the genocide against the Ukrainian people or by "taking him out."


One of the Russian generals recently released a memo that he sent Putin in January, urging him not to invade, because it would be stupid and dangerous.  That could be a sign that the military is starting to push back against him.  Or not.  I guess we will have to wait and see.


----------



## hawkdon

I have been sorta shocked at the apparent lack of 
skills by the Russian troops...or maybe lack of initiative...
I think they spend too much money on arms and not enuff
on the troop training....


----------



## JustBonee

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 214766
> 
> Ukraine minister Anton Gerashchenko has claimed Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu suffered a heart attack after a heated confrontation with President Putin where Putin blamed him for the 'failure' of his special military operation in Ukraine.



Maybe he was given one of Putin's famous 'cocktails'.


----------



## Furryanimal

The next round of talks between Ukraine and the Russian Federation will take place in Turkey on March 28-30.
This was announced by the head of the Servant of the People parliamentary faction, member of the delegation David Arakhamia, Ukrinform reports.
"Today, at the next round of talks held via video conference, it was decided to hold the next live round by the two delegations in Turkey on March 28-30," Arakhamia wrote on Facebook.
Arakhamia clarified that more details are yet to be announced.


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Pepper

hawkdon said:


> I have been sorta shocked at the apparent lack of
> skills by the Russian troops...or maybe lack of initiative...
> *I think they spend too much money on arms and not enuff
> on the troop training....*


Sssshhh!  Happy to hear that, let them figure it out for themselves!


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Furryanimal

_Kateryna Tyshchenko - Monday, March 28, 2022, 22:46_

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy states that the situation in Ukraine should be perceived without excessive euphoria and inflated expectations, but also without assuming the worst.

Source: Presidential address

Verbatim: "You need to approach this situation with balance, as wisely as possible. There’s no need for excessive euphoria driven by success, but also there’s no need to assume the worst. We still need time, we still need weapons, we still need to fight and endure. We can't burn out now. So we avoid a burn out, you shouldn’t overhype expectations."


Details: The President said that Ukrainian defenders are advancing in the Kyiv region and regaining control over the territory.

"Irpin has been liberated ... The aggressors are being driven out from Irpin, they are being driven out from Kyiv. However, it is too early to talk about security in this part of our region. The fighting continues," he said.

Zelenskyy said that Russian troops controlled the north of the Kyiv region, had resources and manpower, and were trying to restore broken units.

"The level of their losses, even at 90%, is not an argument for them to stop. Hundreds and hundreds of units of burned and abandoned aggressors’ military equipment does not convince them that this will happen to everyone," the president said.

According to him, the situation in Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, Donbas and southern Ukraine remains tense and very difficult.


----------



## Furryanimal

_ROMAN PETRENKO - TUESDAY, 29 MARCH 2022, 10:05_

Negotiating teams from Ukraine and Russia have met in Istanbul, with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan addressing them and calling for a truce.

Source: Erdogan's speech, which has been broadcast by Ukrainian TV channels

Details: Erdogan has called for a truce and said that the continuation of hostilities is not beneficial to anyone.


He expressed hope that the talks would yield a concrete result.

The Turkish president also said that successful talks in Istanbul would facilitate a meeting between Ukrainian and Russian leaders.

According to Erdogan: "As your neighbour, I am very upset about this situation. We have been making efforts to end it.

We have tried to restore peace, to restore international law.

All international platforms have tried to defend the rights of both countries to ensure a fair approach to the issue. Our country also lost a lot of troops, and we have tried not to let this happen again to the north of us.

Turkey feels responsible for peace in our region, we believe that peace will be restored. Continuation of the conflict will not be good for anyone - every person who dies, every building that is destroyed takes a piece away from our future.

Restoring peace will be good for both sides and for everyone.

We look forward to hearing from you with happy news."

More details: After the speech, Erdogan left the talks and said he was leaving for Uzbekistan.

Updated: At the negotiating table from Ukraine: Davyd Arakhamiya, head of the "Sluha Narodu" (Servant of the People) faction; Oleksiy Reznikov, Defence Minister; Andrii Kostin and Rustem Umerov, members of parliament; Mykhailo Podoliak, advisor to the head of the Presidential Office; Mykola Tochytskyi, Deputy Foreign Minister; Kyrylo Timoshenko, Deputy Head of the Presidential Office; General Oleksandr Kyrylenko and Oleksandr Chalyi, diplomat and former official.

Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich is also in Istanbul. He had talks with Turkish President Recep Erdogan and members of the delegations before the talks began.

It is also known that Arakhamiya took part in a one-to-one meeting of the heads of the delegations with Vladimir Medinski


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## WhatInThe

Count down to war with Sweden who is mulling NATO membership. Nuclear weapon equiped Russian fighter jets breach Sweden's airspace

https://www.euractiv.com/section/po...ng-nuclear-weapons-violated-swedish-airspace/

Putin basically a rogue gangster demanding respect.


----------



## JonSR77

WhatInThe said:


> Count down to war with Sweden who is mulling NATO membership. Nuclear weapon equiped Russian fighter jets breach Sweden's airspace
> 
> https://www.euractiv.com/section/po...ng-nuclear-weapons-violated-swedish-airspace/
> 
> Putin basically a rogue gangster demanding respect.



That may not mean much. The military reality of borders is that countries with opposing views, who border each other...are almost constantly breaching each other's airspace, taunting their rivals, etc. It is basically normal military muscle flexing.

That kind of thing happened long before the Ukraine invasion.


Putin is a rogue gangster. I think he is "trying" to demand respect, but not really succeeding right now. Entire world community has had enough of him. World community is not going to back down to his threats...even if he threatens nuclear war. 

He lives in a bubble where he thinks he is smarter and better than everyone else. He's not. Every major nation has extremely talented military officers and intelligence officers who are as smart and as fearless as anyone in the world.

Only delusional people think they are better than everyone else and can outsmart everyone else.


----------



## hollydolly

_Russian troops accused of massacring, torturing and brutalising hundreds of civilians in the outskirts of the capital Kyiv may have committed even worse atrocities in villages and towns further from the capital, an adviser to President Volodymyr Zelensky has warned.

At least 410 innocent bystanders were slaughtered in the cities of Bucha and Irpin to the west of Kyiv, Ukraine has said, with bodies discovered littering roads and basements, and piled into hastily-dug mass graves behind the retreating backs of Moscow's men - who fled the region at the weekend, leaving evidence of their crimes behind.

Journalists based in Kyiv who have visited the region since Russian forces withdrew say 'clear evidence' of war crimes has been uncovered, including civilians shot with their hands bound behind their backs and other bodies that bear the marks of torture and rape. 

Prime Minister Boris Johnson led world leaders in condemning the violence at the weekend, pledging to send funding and specialist investigators to the International Criminal Court at The Hauge to compile evidence for a war crimes tribunal. 'We will not rest until justice is served,' he vowed.

But Tymofiy Mylovanov, an adviser to President Zelensky and Ukraine's former finance minister, says even worse atrocities may have been perpetrated to the east of Kyiv in the suburb of Brovary and in villages along the highway to Chernihiv - a city near the Russian border - and has called on journalists and lawyers to go to the region to help document what has happened.

Mylovanov said early eyewitness accounts and anecdotal evidence suggest children may have been burned alive, young women raped en-masse and then executed afterwards, and people forced to eat their pets after being deliberately starved by Russian troops. Others may have been shot dead as they planted crops in the fields or killed in their gardens, he said.





_

Warning...Graphic pics here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ocals-say-Russian-troops-killed-children.html


----------



## oldman

Yesterday, we were told in church that there are a few organizations attempting to get permission from the U.S. government to allow private families here in the U.S. to sponsor a Ukraine family. We would be responsible for their travel and living accommodations and expenses for up to 15 months. My wife and I decided last evening that we would sign a pledge card that we would sponsor up to a family of 4 for the time requested.

We have never even considered doing something like this, but the pictures we have been seeing here in the U.S. have encouraged us to step up and lend a helping hand. We have no idea if this will happen or not. If the group’s application should be approved, there will still be a lot of paperwork to fill out and then the wait will begin.


----------



## hollydolly

oldman said:


> Yesterday, we were told in church that there are a few organizations attempting to get permission from the U.S. government to allow private families here in the U.S. to sponsor a Ukraine family. We would be responsible for their travel and living accommodations and expenses for up to 15 months. My wife and I decided last evening that we would sign a pledge card that we would sponsor up to a family of 4 for the time requested.
> 
> We have never even considered doing something like this, but the pictures we have been seeing here in the U.S. have encouraged us to step up and lend a helping hand. We have no idea if this will happen or not. If the group’s application should be approved, there will still be a lot of paperwork to fill out and then the wait will begin.


We already have that in place...and Ukrainian families are already here. Our govt gave an incentive to any household of  a promise of £300 per month who will house a Ukrainian refugee family for up to 2 years .. over 2 hundred thousand households applied


----------



## JonSR77

oldman said:


> Yesterday, we were told in church that there are a few organizations attempting to get permission from the U.S. government to allow private families here in the U.S. to sponsor a Ukraine family. We would be responsible for their travel and living accommodations and expenses for up to 15 months. My wife and I decided last evening that we would sign a pledge card that we would sponsor up to a family of 4 for the time requested.
> 
> We have never even considered doing something like this, but the pictures we have been seeing here in the U.S. have encouraged us to step up and lend a helping hand. We have no idea if this will happen or not. If the group’s application should be approved, there will still be a lot of paperwork to fill out and then the wait will begin.


Wonderful, absolutely wonderful.  I would advise a call to the US State Department, let them know what is going on and ask for their recommendations.  There are several reasons for this.  One, is that con men will always take tragedy and try to exploit it.  So, you really are going to want to vet these organizations.  So, if the State Department agrees that one of these groups is credible...you can have that peace of mind. And beyond that, you can probably get an actual recommendation from either the State Department or the office of your local Congressmen.  You know, which group among those is considered the best.

Again, absolutely wonderful that you are taking upon yourself this service!


----------



## hollydolly

Incredible moment single Ukrainian tank takes on entire Russian convoy, destroying multiple armoured vehicles near Kyiv​
_Incredible video footage has emerged showing the moment a lone Ukrainian tank single-handedly destroyed several Russian armoured vehicles less than 50 miles from Kyiv.

The footage, collected by a drone and published by a Ukrainian volunteer unit on Telegram, shows what appears to be a single well-positioned Ukrainian T-64 tank ambushing a convoy of Russian BTR-82A armoured vehicles on a road in Nova Basan, west of the capital.

Thanks to brilliant positioning, the lion-hearted tank operator was able to fire several rounds at the invaders' convoy, threading the gap between other structures from a concealed location behind a house.

One BTR was quickly set ablaze in the attack, prompting the remaining armoured vehicles to fire back, seemingly aiming at other targets off-camera as yellow flashes of fire were seen streaking across the fields surrounding the road.

But the T-64 appeared unsighted and continued to pound the convoy with shells as it outsmarted the Russian troops until further artillery reinforcements arrived.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nk-takes-entire-Russian-convoy-near-Kyiv.html


The second half of the video cuts to later footage of Ukrainian artillery strikes raining down on the convoy as it attempts to flee, before zooming in on the wreckage of a Russian tank still on fire alongside several corpses.

Despite the tank's heroics, NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg today warned the war in Ukraine could last 'months, even years' as there is no sign Vladimir Putin has lost 'his ambition to control the whole country'. 

Ukrainian authorities urged civilians in the country's east to flee 'now' or 'risk death' as Russian forces regroup ahead of what is expected to be a fresh offensive in the Donbas region._


----------



## hollydolly

A victim 'blown up with a grenade', a father shot dead in front of his 14-year-old son and troops who 'executed all men under 50': More horrifying details emerge of Russian atrocities in Bucha​
_Charred body parts lay scattered over the streets of Bucha for days after a man was killed with a grenade, while men under 50 were stripped naked, tied up and summarily executed by Russians, traumatised civilians have revealed as more vile stories emerge from the Ukrainian town.

Survivors from the month-long occupation of the town in Kyiv oblast have started to describe their gruesome treatment at the hands of Putin's invading troops after area was liberated.

Mykola, a 53-year-old resident, spent a month hiding in the cold and dark cellar of his apartment building with his wife after witnessing callous executions on the streets of his hometown.

He told ABC that when the Russians arrived, they killed all men aged under 50 and then ordered him to bury his friends within 20 minutes. 

Two of his friends were shot in front of him and another was hit by a grenade, blowing his body to pieces, which lay untouched for days until Mykola was allowed to quickly gather his parts in a bag and bury them in a shallow grave to ward off the dogs. 

Vanya Skyba told The Economist how Russians rounded up a group of builders, ordered them to strip naked and lie face down on the floor while their bodies and phones were searched for evidence of military tattoos or anti-Russian sentiment.

Graphic pictures here...https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10691337/Man-blown-grenade-father-shot-dead-son-horrifying-Bucha-stories.html_





A Ukrainian serviceman stands amid destroyed Russian tanks in Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv, Ukraine, April 6


----------



## Furryanimal

17:25
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson pays surprise visit to Kyiv. President Volodymyr Zelensky and PM Boris Johnson had a meeting in Kyiv on April 9, according to Zelensky’s deputy chief of staff Andrij Sybiha. No details of the conversation are known yet. Johnson hadn’t announced his visit to Ukraine.

Kyiv Independent


----------



## hollydolly

_Boris Johnson today told Ukraine's President Zelensky 'the Ukrainian people are a lion, and you are its roar' as he vowed to send Ukraine 120 armoured vehicles and new anti-ship missile systems to expel Vladimir Putin's occupiers during a surprise visit to Kyiv.

Footage showed the pair meeting and sitting across a table from each other, their respective flags on the far side. Mr Johnson was wearing a dark suit and Zelensky a khaki overall, his signature attire in public appearances since February 24.

Details of the meeting had not been made public prior to the image's release. The Embassy of Ukraine to the UK was one of the first to share the picture, writing: 'Surprise' with a winking face emoji. 

Mr Johnson praised the Ukrainian troops' staunch resistance_ _that has 'defied odds' in rebuffing Russia's advance towards the capital of Kyiv. 

'I think that the Ukrainians have shown the courage of a lion, and you Volodymyr have given the roar of that lion,' he said. 

'The Russians believed Ukraine could be engulfed in a matter of days and that Kyiv would falls in hours to their armies. How wrong they were'.  

A No 10 spokesman said the Prime Minister was using the visit to set out a new package of financial and military aid, and comes the day after he announced a further £100million worth of UK military assistance for Kyiv's forces, including anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons and so-called 'suicide drones'.

Appearing alongside Mr Zelensky in a recorded broadcast clip, Mr Johnson said the West would continue to 'ratchet up' sanctions on Moscow as he praised the courage of the Ukrainian resistance. 




_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...dent-Zelensky-unannounced-surprise-visit.html


----------



## hollydolly

Putin calls in the Butcher of Syria: ​
*Captain General Aleksandr Dvornikov has been dubbed as the 'Butcher of Syria'*
*From 2016, Dvornikov oversaw Russia's brutal intervention in the middle east that helped Syrian president Bashar al-Assad crush his enemies in the civil war *
*He is also believed to be man behind attack on Kramatorsk railway station Friday*
*Now, he has been ordered by Putin to take charge of seizing the whole of Donbas*
_Vladimir Putin has chosen the man to mastermind his re-focused offensive in eastern Ukraine, after the first disastrous six weeks of Moscow's invasion saw thousands of Russian troops sent to their deaths and scores of tanks destroyed.

Captain General Aleksandr Dvornikov, dubbed by some as the 'Butcher of Syria', has been ordered by the Kremlin to seize the whole of Ukraine's eastern Donbas. 

From 2016, Dvornikov oversaw Russia's brutal intervention in the middle east that helped Syrian president Bashar al-Assad crush his enemies in the civil war.

During that time, chemical weapons and indiscriminate air strikes were used - resulting in thousands of civilian casualties.

The 60-year-old general is also believed to be the man behind Friday's missile strike on Kramatorsk railway station, killing at least 52 civilians attempting to flee west.   






His battlefield intelligence is apparently highly regarded among western generals, and he is believed to be familiar with the Donbas theatre of war - where pro-Russian separatists have been fighting Ukrainian government forces since 2014.

Dvornikov has also been given the responsibility of overseeing the Black Sea and the Crimean peninsula, which was seized by Russia in 2014. Analysts believe Putin wants to create a land corridor between Russia and Crimea - something that heavy Ukrainian resistance is preventing, according to Britain's Ministry of Defence today.

NATO chiefs have compiled a database of his achievements and tactical preferences in a bid to predict his decision making in the weeks ahead, and he has developed a reputation for ruthlessness over the years.

But officials say that he may struggle to please Vladimir Putin. 'Unless the Russian army becomes a lot more effective it is difficult to see how it succeeds,' one said.
_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ral-mastermind-Russias-new-attack-Donbas.html​


----------



## hollydolly

_Putin__ has lost his ninth colonel in battle since launching his brutal invasion of Ukraine in February, as Moscow's losses continue to mount up.

A funeral was held for Colonel Alexander Bespalov on Friday in the closed Russian city of Ozersk, according to a local announcement, which said he was killed 'during a special military operation in Ukraine' - a term used by Moscow to avoid saying 'war'.

The statement said Bespalov was the commander of the 59th Guards Tank Regiment, and become the latest senior Russian military officer to be killed in the war that has seen Kyiv's forces surprise exerts with their fierce resistance.

Targeted strikes against slow-moving Russian tank units have allowed Ukraine's forces to compensate for their inferior numbers, with latest estimates from Kyiv defence officials suggesting the Kremlin has lost more than 4,000 military vehicles.

In addition, Ukraine's Ministry of Defence estimates that Russia has sent more than 19,000 troops to their deaths. Meanwhile, thousands of Moscow's soldiers have retreated from the Kyiv region to refocus Russia's military efforts on eastern Ukraine.








However, a senior U.S. defence official said Friday the Pentagon has determined that some of the Russian combat units that retreated from the Kyiv area in recent days are so heavily damaged and depleted that their combat utility is in question. 

Some analysts have suggested that the focus on the Donbas and the pledge to de-escalate may merely be an effort to put a positive spin on reality: Moscow's ground forces have been thwarted - and have taken heavy losses - in their bid to seize the capital and other major cities.

The Kremlin has a policy of playing down military casualties with a 2015 decree declaring all deaths in conflict a state secret, and last year any statement discrediting the military were criminalised. 

Colonel Nikolay Ovcharenko, chief of the Western Military District engineer troops, was killed in an ambush that left a total of 18 Russians dead by a pontoon bridge over the Siverskyi Donets River.

Colonel Alexei Sharov, commander of the 810th Guards Separate Order of Zhukov Brigade in the Russian Marines, was killed in Mariupol in March. 

Colonel Sergei Sukharev, of the 331st Guards Parachute Assault Regiment from Kostroma, was 'liquidated' according to Ukraine in fighting earlier this month. 

'Commander of the Kostroma Airborne Regiment, Colonel Sergei Sukharev… got lost in the '[military] exercises', but returned home the right way,' said the Ukrainian statement.

His deputy Major Sergei Krylov was killed alongside him, said the report.

Colonel Andrei Zakharov was killed in an ambush near Kyiv in the opening days of the war, while Colonel Konstantin Zizevsky who led air assault troops died in the south of Ukraine.
A Western official claimed the commander had been killed by his own troops, 'as a consequence of the scale of losses that had been taken by his brigade'.

'We believe he was killed by his own troops deliberately,' the official said, noting he was 'run over'.

He added it was a further sign of 'morale challenges that Russian forces are having'.

'They really have found themselves in a hornet's nest and they're suffering really badly,' the official said.

Colonel Sergei Porokhyna is another high-profile casualty among Putin's forces. 

On top of the colonels, at least seven Russian generals have been killed in fighting, more than during the entire 10-year brutal Soviet campaign in Afghanistan in the 1980s where five generals died.
Russian brigade commander Colonel Yuri Medvedev was even run down with a tank  by his own mutinous troops._


----------



## SeniorBen

hollydolly said:


> Putin calls in the Butcher of Syria: ​
> *Captain General Aleksandr Dvornikov has been dubbed as the 'Butcher of Syria'*
> *From 2016, Dvornikov oversaw Russia's brutal intervention in the middle east that helped Syrian president Bashar al-Assad crush his enemies in the civil war *
> *He is also believed to be man behind attack on Kramatorsk railway station Friday*
> *Now, he has been ordered by Putin to take charge of seizing the whole of Donbas*
> _Vladimir Putin has chosen the man to mastermind his re-focused offensive in eastern Ukraine, after the first disastrous six weeks of Moscow's invasion saw thousands of Russian troops sent to their deaths and scores of tanks destroyed.
> 
> Captain General Aleksandr Dvornikov, dubbed by some as the 'Butcher of Syria', has been ordered by the Kremlin to seize the whole of Ukraine's eastern Donbas.
> 
> From 2016, Dvornikov oversaw Russia's brutal intervention in the middle east that helped Syrian president Bashar al-Assad crush his enemies in the civil war.
> 
> During that time, chemical weapons and indiscriminate air strikes were used - resulting in thousands of civilian casualties.
> 
> The 60-year-old general is also believed to be the man behind Friday's missile strike on Kramatorsk railway station, killing at least 52 civilians attempting to flee west.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His battlefield intelligence is apparently highly regarded among western generals, and he is believed to be familiar with the Donbas theatre of war - where pro-Russian separatists have been fighting Ukrainian government forces since 2014.
> 
> Dvornikov has also been given the responsibility of overseeing the Black Sea and the Crimean peninsula, which was seized by Russia in 2014. Analysts believe Putin wants to create a land corridor between Russia and Crimea - something that heavy Ukrainian resistance is preventing, according to Britain's Ministry of Defence today.
> 
> NATO chiefs have compiled a database of his achievements and tactical preferences in a bid to predict his decision making in the weeks ahead, and he has developed a reputation for ruthlessness over the years.
> 
> But officials say that he may struggle to please Vladimir Putin. 'Unless the Russian army becomes a lot more effective it is difficult to see how it succeeds,' one said._
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ral-mastermind-Russias-new-attack-Donbas.html​


The U.S. and the world should have stood up to Putin when he was massacring people in Aleppo and other parts of Syria. Instead, all he got was a slap on the wrist. Then he took Crimea. Still, barely a peep. He probably thought he could continue his reign of terror with little resistance, but the people of Ukraine proved him wrong. He went a "bridge too far," but now that his back is against the wall and he looks weak and incompetent, he's getting even nastier.


----------



## hollydolly

SeniorBen said:


> The U.S. and the world should have stood up to Putin when he was massacring people in Aleppo and other parts of Syria. Instead, all he got was a slap on the wrist. Then he took Crimea. Still, barely a peep. He probably thought he could continue his reign of terror with little resistance, but the people of Ukraine proved him wrong. He went a "bridge too far," but now that his back is against the wall and he looks weak and incompetent, he's getting even nastier.


It's true..at the beginning of this , I said Putin had taken on the fight of his life with Ukraine..I knew it, but he seemingly thought they would be a walk over...., but now he's losing respect  to the world, he's becoming more aggressive and intent on the attack of surrounding countries whom he feels are defenceless, such as Finland


----------



## mellowyellow

*Russia has defaulted on its foreign debt*

Russia attempted to pay in rubles for two dollar-denominated bonds that matured on April 4, S&P said in a note on Friday. The agency said this amounted to a "selective default" because investors are unlikely to be able to convert the rubles into "dollars equivalent to the originally due amounts."


----------



## Pepper

If Le Pen wins in France, everything will be different, for the worse, for all of Europe, IMO.  Can't say anymore, re: ban on Political discussions.


----------



## oldman

oldman said:


> Yesterday, we were told in church that there are a few organizations attempting to get permission from the U.S. government to allow private families here in the U.S. to sponsor a Ukraine family. We would be responsible for their travel and living accommodations and expenses for up to 15 months. My wife and I decided last evening that we would sign a pledge card that we would sponsor up to a family of 4 for the time requested.
> 
> We have never even considered doing something like this, but the pictures we have been seeing here in the U.S. have encouraged us to step up and lend a helping hand. We have no idea if this will happen or not. If the group’s application should be approved, there will still be a lot of paperwork to fill out and then the wait will begin.


Follow-up: We we’re given a series of paperwork to fill out for the State Department. To fill out all what is requested will take a few hours. I told my wife that we are allowing hundreds of thousands to walk across our southern borders with no paperwork whatsoever, but here we are dealing with truly deserving people that needs to exit their country immediately and we are going to be inundated with red tape. These people need out now. Not 2 months from now. The organization that is sponsoring this excursion of citizens from Ukraine has not yet received permission, but it is sounding very encouraging that this will happen. When we file the paperwork, they are requesting that we include a check for $2500 to cover transportation. We don’t have to attach it now, but the man heading up this maneuver is strongly suggesting to do it because he thinks it will improve our chances of it happening.

My wife has already began preparing for a family by fixing up the spare bedrooms in our home. I tried to tell her that we will probably have time to do all that will need to be done and she shouldn’t count her chickens before they are hatched, but she’s getting excited about hosting a Ukrainian family. We are hoping that if we get a family of 4 that the two children are of the same sex, so that we can put them both into one bedroom. We have 4 bedrooms, but would like to keep one empty for when another couple we know comes to visit. The parents would use one bedroom and the two girls or boys would use another and of course, my wife and I have one, so we would still have one bedroom remaining for other guests. But, if the family has one boy and one girl, then so-be-it, we will only have the family for up to 15 months. It will be fine either way. BTW, my wife bought a book about the Ukraine and it’s culture, etc. and also a translator, which I already have on my phone from Google. The Google translator has been very helpful when we have traveled overseas.


----------



## JustBonee

> Follow-up: We we’re given a series of paperwork to fill out for the State Department. To fill out all what is requested will take a few hours. I told my wife that we are allowing hundreds of thousands to walk across our southern borders with no paperwork whatsoever, but here we are dealing with truly deserving people that needs to exit their country immediately and we are going to be inundated with red tape. These people need out now. Not 2 months from now. The organization that is sponsoring this excursion of citizens from Ukraine has not yet received permission, but it is sounding very encouraging that this will happen. When we file the paperwork, they are requesting that we include a check for $2500 to cover transportation. We don’t have to attach it now, but the man heading up this maneuver is strongly suggesting to do it because he thinks it will improve our chances of it happening.




Many from Ukraine  have made their way  to the US on their own ...  those with the means and are educated.  Some have family here and/or connections around the country ....  some  have flown to Mexico,  and then  came over the border.    
Those   have been getting  preference over other refugees  by border agents.

Since  early March,  there have been many interviewed on the local news..   a lot of college students making their way here.  Our gain.


----------



## JonSR77

I did some work with a refugee from the war in Serbia.  He was a rock musician.  If I remember, he took a plane to Miami, that was supposed to go to South America.  And when they stopped over in Miami, he just jumped off.

He told me that during the war, they made him into a policeman and then a soldier. But, you know, this guy was a rock drummer. He was no police officer or soldier.

His unit was ordered into a village.  They were told to kill everyone in there.  He found a young boy, about 5, hiding in a barn.  He told the boy to go back to his hiding place and did not report it, so the child would live.

He said to me...can you believe it? They made ME a police officer and a soldier?

War is horrible.

All this guy ever wanted to do was play rock music...

The band he was in, eventually became The Churchills... (but I don't think he was the drummer at the time...)

Their bass player was a crew guy, working on the TV show, "The Sopranos."  They got Jamie-Lynn Sigler (Meadow), to wear the band's T-shirt in one episode...


The Churchills - Everybody Gets What They Deserve​​



​​​


----------



## Furryanimal

The UK Government is “working urgently” to verify details following claims that Russia has used chemical weapons in Ukraine and “all options remain on the table” for a potential response, ministers have said.
Interpret as you wish says Furry
...
James Heappy, Britain’s deputy defense minister, told Sky News on April 12 that London was also trying to verify the reports.

"If they are used at all, then [Russian] President [Vladimir] Putin should know that all possible options are on the table in terms of how the West might respond," Heappey said.

"There are some things that are beyond the pale, and the use of chemical weapons will get a response," he added


----------



## Furryanimal

MSN
Now for Finland
Russian heavy weapons including missile systems have been seen moving towards the border with Finland, hours after Russia warned its northern neighbour against joining NATO.

An unconfirmed video uploaded last night appears to show two Russian coastal defence missile systems moving along a road on the Russian side of the border that leads to Helsinki. 

The missile systems are thought to be the K-300P Bastion-P mobile coastal defence system, designed to take out surface ships up to and including aircraft carrier battle groups. 

The Russian deployment comes as Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said she expects her government 'will end the discussion before midsummer' on whether to apply for NATO membership


----------



## hollydolly

*Vladimir Putin today warned his enemies in the West they will face 'consequences' if they 'worsen the situation' in Ukraine, as the Russian strongman threatened to create 'waves of migrants' in Europe.*

_Putin, speaking in front of dozens of rockets at the Vostochny space launch facility in Russia's Far East, insisted that his faltering invasion of Ukraine would prevail as he warned of world starvation as a result of Western sanctions against Moscow.

The Russian President claimed Russia's economy and financial system withstood the blow from what he called the Western sanctions 'blitz' and insisted the move would backfire by driving up prices for essentials such as fertiliser, leading to food shortages and increased migration to the West.

Despite Putin's faltering invasion, which saw Russian troops retreat from Ukrainian cities and instead focus on the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine, the leader said his war effort is going to plan as he vowed Russia would triumph in all of its 'noble' war aims.    

Putin said that 'common sense should prevail' and added that the West should 'come back to reason and make well-balanced decisions without losing its face.' 

He argued that new Western restrictions on high-tech exports will encourage Russia to move faster to develop new technologies, opening a 'new window of opportunities.'

Putin also claimed on Tuesday that the images and footage of dead bodies strewn across the Ukrainian town of Bucha were fake, parroting the same lines his spokesman gave earlier this week. He compared the accusations to those concerning the use of chemical weapons by the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. 'It's the same kind of fake in Bucha,' Putin said.

Lukashenko wildly accused Britain of staging the atrocities at Bucha by bringing in dead bodies from across Ukraine - not Russian soldiers who wreaked havoc on Ukrainian towns and cities as they retreated. 

The Belarusian dictator claimed that a show of Russian cruelty was needed to maintain the West's justification for sanctions against Moscow.   

'We've discussed the psychological special operation which was conducted by the English,' said Lukashenko of his talks with Putin. 'If any of you need addresses, details, car plate numbers, brands of cars with which [they] arrived in Bucha and how they did it, the FSB [secret service] of Russia can provide these materials.' 

Putin meanwhile claimed Ukraine had deviated from the agreements made at a peace conference in Istanbul, and that talks are in a 'dead end'.

Putin's comments come as a video emerged purporting to show Russian heavy weapons including missile systems being moved towards the border with Finland, hours after the Kremlin warned its northern neighbour against joining NATO. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ish-border-warning-Finland-not-join-NATO.html_


----------



## hollydolly

*OMG, just when you think you can't be shocked any longer at what happens in a war..you hear this*.. 

A Russian woman has been heard giving her soldier partner permission to rape Ukrainian locals in a phone call intercepted by Kyiv's security services.

The shocking 30-second audio clip of the conversation was posted to the telegram channel of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) on Tuesday.

'Wives of Russian aggressors call on their husbands to rape Ukrainian women,' the agency wrote on Telegram, along with the clip.

'This shocking interception by the SBU reflects the moral values not only of the occupiers but also of their relatives, 80% of whom now support the war in Ukraine,' the agency claimed in its description of the recording.

The audio clip opens with the blue and yellow title: 'SECURITY SERVICE INTERCEPT: Wives of Russian invaders allow their men to rape Ukrainian women.'


Click the link to hear the woman give permission to her partner to Rape Ukranian women


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-partner-permission-RAPE-locals-Ukraine.html

_Putin's band of thugs have been linked to a string of horrific atrocities across Ukraine, including the brutal rape and murder of women and children, often in front of their own family members. Moscow has denied the claims.

One Russian soldier has even been arrested after allegedly recording himself abusing a Ukrainian baby. 

Speaking to Lithuanian lawmakers today, Zelensky said: 'In areas freed from the occupiers, the recording and investigation of war crimes committed by Russia continues. New mass graves are found almost daily.

'Testimonials are being collected. Thousands and thousands of victims. Hundreds of cases of torture. Bodies continue to be found in drains and cellars.

'Hundreds of cases of rape have been recorded, including those of young girls and very young children. Even of a baby!' 

Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda responded saying, 'It's simply impossible to imagine a greater horror.'

The scale of the brutality has led a Ukrainian rights group to inform the UN that rape is being used as a weapon of war by the Kremlin. 
_
Dear God!!


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## JonSR77

I think he is going to ply some lies to make himself look good to the Russian people, and slowly back out, to some compromised withdrawal.

And I think that means that Ukraine will have to give him some territory.

I think it is going that way.  Not that I agree or have a better idea...but that is just the way I think it is going...


----------



## oldman

I fully understand that no country wants to send troops to help the Ukraine, especially the U.S. or Great Britain. This may (probably would) be interrupted as an escalation of the war. Russia’s main and maybe only ally is China. I think if Russia and China would team up, it would be game on and WWIII would begin. I doubt if any country in the world would benefit from that happening.

If nukes would be used, we would all be vaporized or die from radiation poisoning. Would a new world begin? I don’t know.


----------



## JonSR77

oldman said:


> I fully understand that no country wants to send troops to help the Ukraine, especially the U.S. or Great Britain. This may (probably would) be interrupted as an escalation of the war. Russia’s main and maybe only ally is China. I think if Russia and China would team up, it would be game on and WWIII would begin. I doubt if any country in the world would benefit from that happening.
> 
> If nukes would be used, we would all be vaporized or die from radiation poisoning. Would a new world begin? I don’t know.



Yeah, the risk of nuclear war is why we just don't go in and put Putin in a box.

At the height of the cold war, the US had about 58,000 nukes. The Russians had about 60,000 nukes. But our individual nukes had a higher payload, so we, in fact had bit more firepower.

Today, both sides have about 5000 nukes.

It takes about 500 nukes, reasonably well spaced, to basically destroy the entire world. So, both sides have 10 times that capacity.

If those 500 nukes were launched in that way, it is highly likely some small population of people would survive...oh, maybe anywhere from 1 to 100 million. 

If we were to engage in a nuclear exchange now??? ------ it would likely be, oh, something like 50 - 100 nukes. All the major cities in the US and Russia would be gone, but a small number of people would survive...in Alaska, Hawaii, other more remote areas.

If both sides launched everything? It is possible that, oh, a million or more people would survive world wide and the world would start again from there.

Total permanent annihilation of humanity for all time....that is unlikely, even the Cold War figures which could have launched 100,000 nukes, it would still be likely a tiny number of people would have survived and life begin again. They might look incredibly strange, glow in the dark and only live to be 30....but a few mutants might keep a mutant humanity going.

And hey, let's not do the experiment...to find out.


----------



## Jace

Heard on the news, it's now been 6 weeks.

And, the pundits said it would be over in 10days...when it started.

Wow! How wrong...how long?


----------



## Warrigal

JonSR77 said:


> I think he is going to ply some lies to make himself look good to the Russian people, and slowly back out, to some compromised withdrawal.
> 
> And I think that means that Ukraine will have to give him some territory.
> 
> I think it is going that way.  Not that I agree or have a better idea...but that is just the way I think it is going...


That is what happened to Finland as a result of the Winter War of 1939-40. Russia attacked Finland and the Finns fought back much like the Ukrainians now. No other country came to Finland's aid and they were forced into a peace deal where they lost territory.

They have never forgotten that war and today maintain a high level of preparedness to defend themselves should it happen again. They are also applying to join NATO in June. So is Sweden.

So Putin has miscalculated badly. He will soon have NATO protected countries for much of his western borders.


----------



## Furryanimal

Found this....
daily updates and insight.
Anna from Ukraine


----------



## mellowyellow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1514462820464799744
This made my day.


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## hollydolly

Furryanimal said:


>


It's so true... as the interviwer says... looking at the destruction is horrible, hearing about the 21,000 people in that one town being killed, .. but imagine living it ...... ... as she says.. the Russians come and tell them they're being liberated... , she says ''what did we need liberating from?.. we had schools, hospitals, good homes, good jobs, a safe nice town ... they destroyed all that !..now the people are dead, normal innocent people, no jobs for anyone, or homes...everything they own gone ..all in the name of Russian liberation


----------



## Don M.

Putin and his military seem to be preparing for even more severe attacks.  Perhaps the best solution would be for Ukraine to give Russia the Eastern territories which already have mostly Russian speaking populations.  

The alternative is further escalation which ultimately could lead to direct NATO involvement which could easily thrust the entire world into WWIII.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has led auto industry watchers to cut production and sales forecasts for the next two years. The crisis has shuttered factories in Eastern Europe, and caused spikes in the prices of already precious raw materials.

The report highlighted disruptions to the supply of critical automotive parts from the region, perhaps most notably wire harnesses from Ukraine. At risk also are raw materials — Russia produces about 40% of the world’s raw palladium — which is used to clean vehicle exhaust. The region is also a producer of nickel, which is used in electric vehicle batteries. Even common minerals and metals, such as iron, are affected.

All of these are key materials used to make cars.

Watch the video to learn more."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/16/how-russias-war-is-cutting-global-auto-production.html


----------



## hollydolly

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> "Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has led auto industry watchers to cut production and sales forecasts for the next two years. The crisis has shuttered factories in Eastern Europe, and caused spikes in the prices of already precious raw materials.
> 
> The report highlighted disruptions to the supply of critical automotive parts from the region, perhaps most notably wire harnesses from Ukraine. At risk also are raw materials — Russia produces about 40% of the world’s raw palladium — which is used to clean vehicle exhaust. The region is also a producer of nickel, which is used in electric vehicle batteries. Even common minerals and metals, such as iron, are affected.
> 
> All of these are key materials used to make cars.
> 
> Watch the video to learn more."
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/16/how-russias-war-is-cutting-global-auto-production.html


yes we've been feeling the effects of that  for a few months now in the car parts industry... Prices of new cars have gone sky high because people with older cars can't get the parts to repair their existing cars.. so it's a sellers market at the moment..


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Russia’s war in Ukraine is already taking a dramatic toll on the world economy and placing a huge swath of the world’s population, especially those in developing nations, at an increased risk of harm, the United Nations warned Wednesday.

As many as 1.7 billion people are “highly exposed” to the cascading effects of Russia’s war on global food, energy and finance systems, Guterres said. The U.N. report notes that “of these 1.7 billion people, 553 million are already poor, and 215 million are already undernourished.”

*One of the main culprits behind the spike in food prices is a global shortage of fertilizer. Russia and Belarus provide about 40% of the world’s exports of potash, a potassium-rich salt critical to much of the globe’s fertilizer and agricultural production.*

But potash is currently being targeted by the U.S. and its allies with economic sanctions as the Biden administration looks to isolate Moscow from global markets.

Russia also exported 11% of the world’s urea, and 48% of the ammonium nitrate, two other key fertilizer components, according to estimates from Morgan Stanley.

“Particularly in Europe, which is most vulnerable, I worry about recession prospects,” Yellen added. *“This will be an urgent concern for us next week to try to think about how we can stave off starvation around the world. It’s really a grave concern.”*

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/13/rus...ions-un-warns-as-food-energy-prices-soar.html


----------



## mellowyellow

_………A number of factors could make it difficult for Russians travelling abroad, said Katrin Sommerfeld, a researcher at the Mannheim-based Centre for European Economic Research who focuses on refugee immigration. She has published a paper calling on German policymakers to bring forward a strategy on how to deal with migrants from Russia.

“Prices are rocketing in the countries where these individuals are going to,” she said. “You’re only allowed to take $10,000 abroad from Russia. You can’t access your bank account. The rouble has devalued so it’s harder to get your money and it is worth less. Things are very expensive. This makes it difficult and could perhaps feed into return migration, because if your money is burnt and it doesn’t work abroad then what are you going to do?”

Some of those returning say they are often surprised by the indifference to the war.

“The main impression for me is that people are kind of accepting it,” said the tech executive. “The war is bad and Putin is evil but life continues. It’s more or less alright here, the exchange rate is alright even if it is imaginary, some stuff disappeared from shops but it’s not as bad as we thought, the prices grew but it’s not that bad. It has really depressed me seriously to the bottom of my heart.……….

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-outbreak-of-ukraine-war-reluctantly-go-home_


----------



## Furryanimal

Don M. said:


> Putin and his military seem to be preparing for even more severe attacks.  Perhaps the best solution would be for Ukraine to give Russia the Eastern territories which already have mostly Russian speaking populations.
> 
> The alternative is further escalation which ultimately could lead to direct NATO involvement which could easily thrust the entire world into WWIII.


What makes you think the Ukrainians who live there want to be a part of Russia?
And conceding territory-which if my National Guard enrolled Ukrianian friend(thankfully still safe as she travels on convoys between Kyiv and Poland) is anything to go by-would never be accepted by the average Ukrainian.
It could spark another revolution -the Maidan Revolution lies at the root of this current conflict.
Zelensky has said several times a return to the situation that existed on February 23rd would be acceptable for now.
And ceding territory in return for peace has no place in the 21st century.And sets a dangerous precedent.
The best solution is for Putin to be the subject of a coup.


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Furryanimal

HUSARIVKA, Ukraine — The cows wouldn’t stop screaming.

Russian soldiers had occupied this remote village in eastern Ukraine for about two weeks and were using a farm as a base. But the animals at the farm hadn’t been fed. Their incessant bleating was wearing on both occupiers and townspeople.

A group of five residents from Husarivka, an unassuming agricultural village of around 1,000 people, went to tend the cattle.

They were never heard from again.

“My two nephews disappeared. They went to feed the cows on the farm,” said Svitlana Tarusyna, 70. “They are gone, vanished.”

What transpired in Husarivka has all the horrifying elements of the more widely publicized episodes involving Russian brutality: indiscriminate killings, abuse and torture taking place over the better part of a month.
Human rights workers around Kyiv, the capital, are gathering evidence of Russian atrocities, hoping to build the case for war crimes. But for the villagers here, the occupation’s legacy is not measured in mass killings, corpses or ruined buildings, but in the disappearances of friends and neighbors.

Though the residents are free of Russian occupation, questions about what exactly happened during those troubled days will linger for years to come
NY Times


----------



## hollydolly

_Images have emerged which appear to give a first glimpse at Russia flagship Moskva after it was blown up by Ukrainian missiles last week before it sunk to the bottom of the Black Sea.

The pictures, which seem to have been taken from a rescue vessel alongside the stricken Russian warship, show damage its left side along with flames burning below deck and a thick pall of black smoke rising into the sky. 

Moskva is shown sitting low in the water, leaning to the port side, and appears to have deployed its lifeboats with no crew visible on board. Its rear helicopter door is also open, suggesting the aircraft has taken off. There also seems to be a firefighting ship behind the vessel which is spraying jets of water into the air. 

Multiple black marks scar the port-side of the ship, including several near deck-level where smoke appears to have streamed out of portholes and left marks on the paint. But there are also dark marks close to the waterline that don't match the position of portholes and suggest the ship has sustained external damage.  

The images are largely consistent with Ukrainian descriptions of the sinking - that the Moskva was hit by two missiles on its port side which sparked a fire and caused it to roll - and contradict Russia's account which was that the ship suffered a fire and internal explosion in rough seas. 

Video has also since emerged which appears to show two rescue vessels approaching the burning ship - one to the left side and one to the right - in which a Russian voice can be heard speaking. One man says 'what the f*** are you doing?' before the short clip ends.

Analysts and experts who reviewed the images say they do appear genuine. It is unlikely that Russia will confirm the authenticity of the pictures, amid a near-total information blackout around the sinking which is a huge embarrassment to Vladimir Putin's beleaguered armed forces.  

Moscow did stage what appeared to be a parade of crew members in the port of Sevastopol - in occupied Crimea - on Sunday, during which the captain of the warship and between 150 and 250 members of its crew were shown on camera alongside Black Sea Admiral Nikolai Yevmenov. The Moskva typically carries up to 510 sailors, and there was no word on the whereabouts of the remaining crew or their condition.
But horror accounts of the sinking have started to emerge from conscripts serving on board the ship, with one telling his parents that at least 40 members of the crew were killed with 'many' left missing or maimed with lost limbs after the strike. Hundreds are thought to have died as the vessel went down.







Click on the link for the Video...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-pictures-Russian-warship-Moskva-sinking.html_


----------



## Furryanimal

https://www.rferl.org/a/adam-michnik-russia-ukraine-change-putin-brezhnev-afghan-war/31808312.html


----------



## hollydolly

Furryanimal said:


> https://www.rferl.org/a/adam-michnik-russia-ukraine-change-putin-brezhnev-afghan-war/31808312.html


 quote from the article.. ''
_Putin also likely brushed off the capabilities of the Ukrainians, Michnik said, admitting he was himself among the initial skeptics.


"[Putin] did not think that there would be such a heroic response from the Ukrainian Army and Ukrainian society," he said. "It's fantastic. No one thought it would happen, and I didn't think it would either. The Ukrainians told me that this would happen, but I did not believe them."_

I know it's far from over but I've said this very thing right from the beginning of this conflict... I have always felt that Putin for all his wealth and his huge army, has massively underestimated the fierce and  defensive nature  of the ordinary  Ukrainian people ...they remind me so much of  Great Britain during WW2... a small nation who stood up to  bullying  mightier nations, and sent them running with their tails between their legs, and I hope and believe that despite all the dreadful deaths and destruction, that Ukraine will defeat Putin and  show the world they are a force to be reckoned with


----------



## Furryanimal

hollydolly said:


> quote from the article.. ''
> _Putin also likely brushed off the capabilities of the Ukrainians, Michnik said, admitting he was himself among the initial skeptics.
> 
> 
> "[Putin] did not think that there would be such a heroic response from the Ukrainian Army and Ukrainian society," he said. "It's fantastic. No one thought it would happen, and I didn't think it would either. The Ukrainians told me that this would happen, but I did not believe them."_
> 
> I know it's far from over but I've said this very thing right from the beginning of this conflict... I have always felt that Putin for all his wealth and his huge army, has massively underestimated the fierce and  defensive nature  of the ordinary  Ukrainian people ...they remind me so much of  Great Britain during WW2... a small nation who stood up to  bullying  mightier nations, and sent them running with their tails between their legs, and I hope and believe that despite all the dreadful deaths and destruction, that Ukraine will defeat Putin and  show the world they are a force to be reckoned with


My Ukrainian friend and i-we’ve known each other for six years-have always agreed that if Russia invaded there was only one outcome.
And it wasn’t a Ukrainian victory.
But the whole world has been surprised at how well Ukraine has done and how incompetent the Russians have been.
But i fear that if the Russians start being pushed back in Donbas Putin will carry out major aerial bombardments in areas that have largely been left alone.And will seek to destroy the whole of Donbas in the way has destroyed Mariupol.
And the worry from the article is that Michnick said he expects the same outcome as the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
That would be good-but not if takes 10 years as that conflict did.
Before coming here i watched the latest Anna from Ukraine blog( of which i have a couple posted).
Interesting to hear the daily thoughts of someone living in Ukraine-even if she is in a ‘safe’ area.
Today Mariupol featured.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Paco Dennis said:


> US/NATO did not follow the treaty of expansion to the east that was agreed on when the Berlin wall came down


The only signed treaty is this one... Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany September 12, 1990 and pertains to East Germany only. 

Feel free to provide any other treaties that may have even hinted of limited NATO expansion.


----------



## Furryanimal

The girl in this photo is named Ivanka, she is 10 years old. She is holding a phone in her hands,lost when the Russians who came to occupy her native Trostyanets in Sumy region. But thanks to the warm-hearted, the mobile phone returned to the owners.
The intelligence unit 93 of the Cold Yar brigade conducted an operation eastbound from this city. A mechanic-driver from the Kantemiriv division of the Russian Armed Forces was captured by our guys. When the prisoner was detained, a red mobile phone was found, as well as a powerbank with rhinestones. At first the occupier lied that these were his things. The mobile had a seven-card card of one of the Russian operators. And from this phone there were already calls to Russia. And in the contact list there were also Ukrainian numbers, signed by "daddy" and "mumulâ". Kholodnoyarki started calling these numbers. It turned out that the phone belongs to Ivanka.
Ivanka Elena's mother remembers: "On March 15, we left the whole family in the evacuation corridor from Trostyanets, at the time of the occupation. Standing in a column, on their car "sixes" were frightened because there were fights for the city. While standing in the evacuation column, the military rf approached and said to give all the phones. I replied that we have them all discharged. Before that, we have removed all messengers from our phones so as not to give the enemy any information. When leaving the city, at the blockade Russian military walked with a cardboard box and took phones from everyone who was leaving the city, threatening to shoot. They shouted and bullied us. They said it was like we were filming them.
It's been about three days, guys called my number and asked: is that you mommy? I replied with - yes. Dmytro from the 93rd brigade told that they found a phone in a Russian military prisoner. They asked if we were alive.
I was so excited that I didn't believe it from the start, I thought it was some kind of joke. Ivanka cried a lot because the phone was taken away. And even though my husband told the guys to keep the phone to themselves, they still sent it to us by Nova Poshta."
Now Ivanka is grateful to Kholodnoyarcâm for such a pleasant surprise, and sends congratulations to the 93 brigade
Kyiv Independent


----------



## hollydolly

Jeezus...what does this remind you of ?.... wedding rings, purses, gold teeth...?


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Paco Dennis said:


> Yea, that was for Germany. So why did they go beyond it's borders?


Because countries asked to be part of NATO, which was _never discussed in any treaty_ with Russia. At no point did NATO invade any of these countries and force them to join NATO or any other alliance.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Paco Dennis said:


> After explaining why the U.S. wanted the reunited Germany to stay within the framework of NATO, Baker told Gorbachev that "if we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be *no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO 1 inch to the east.*"


Again, the subject was East Germany. The Warsaw Pact was still intact.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Paco Dennis said:


> These nations were *invited to begin membership talks during the 2002 Prague summit, and joined NATO shortly before the 2004 Istanbul summit*.


Left a tidbit out. Those nations indicated an strong interest in joining NATO, prior to invitation.


----------



## Harry Le Hermit

Paco Dennis said:


> I would too, if the bully would protect me from the boogie man.


Nations (and individuals) have been doing this for centuries. 40 years ago, the Warsaw Pact saw NATO as the boogie man and now most of those former members see Putin and Russia as the boogie man. In 40 years... who will be the boogie man?


----------



## Paco Dennis

I screwed up. Sorry to have posted to this thread...I don't want to participate in this one, but thought I was posting to "Alternative views of the Ukraine war".


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

*"U.S. natural gas prices surged to the highest level in more than 13 years Monday as Russia’s war on Ukraine causes a global energy crunch and as forecasts called for cooler spring temperatures.*

Futures jumped 10% to trade as high as $8.05 per million British thermal units, the highest since September 2008. The jump builds on recent strength, with natural gas coming off five straight positive weeks.

Prices later retreated slightly, with the contract ending the day 7.12% higher at $7.82.

“The impact of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia is likely to be long-lasting for North American natural gas markets,” said David Givens, head of natural gas and power services for North America at Argus Media.

EBW Analytics added that a “bullish weather shift” has sent the U.S. market into “overdrive.”

For the year, *U.S. natural gas prices are now up 108%*, which is adding to inflationary concerns across the economy. The move is less extreme than in Europe, where natural gas futures have risen to record levels ..."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/18/nat...008-as-russias-war-upends-energy-markets.html

Some people squeal about paying higher prices, yet emotionally support more sanctions. The US can only replace about 4% of the natural gas that Russia supplies to Europe. The everyday European doesn't want to suffer for one nation only. All bets are off if Marie Le Pen knocks off Macron in the runoff.


----------



## hollydolly

_Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Monday said Russia's large-scale offensive in the eastern Donbas region had begun.  

After weeks of having their assaults on Kyiv thwarted at every turn, Putin's commanders are now refocusing their efforts on the Donbas region that pro-Moscow separatists have partly controlled since 2014.

Russia withdrew many of its troops from the region around the Ukrainian capital at the start of the month, and in recent weeks fighting has intensified as the bulk of Russian troops redeployed to a swathe of territory to the south-east of Kharkiv.  

'We can now confirm that Russian troops have begun the battle for the Donbas, which they have been preparing for a long time. A large part of the Russian army is now dedicated to this offensive,' Zelensky said on Telegram.

'No matter how many Russian soldiers are brought here, we will fight. We will defend ourselves.

'I am grateful to all our fighters, to all our heroic cities in Donbass, Mariupol, as well as to the cities in the region of Kharkiv that are being held.' 

The offensive in the Donbas marks a new phase of the war which will see Russia double down on its efforts to seize the territories of Donetsk and Luhansk after attempts to seize cities across Ukraine were repelled. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-scale-offensive-control-eastern-Ukraine.html_


----------



## Furryanimal

Russian dictator Vladimir Putin is allegedly considering using nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Such a reckless move would make the entire world, including China, to turn against Moscow, international observer Ivan Yakovyna told NV Radio.

As it stands, there is no chance that Russia will manage to execute its operation in Donbas flawlessly, encircle Ukrainian troops there, and be in a position to dictate terms to Kyiv.

The way the battlefield is developing, the Donbas offensive threatens the Kremlin with a staggering military defeat and a shattered army. The United States is very well aware of how the Russian army is armed and equipped, and what the moral situation there is like.

https://english.nv.ua/nation/using-...to-put-an-end-to-putin-s-regime-50235171.html

for the whole article


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Bosses and unions in Germany have joined forces to oppose a possible EU ban on Russian gas, saying it would grind industry to a halt.

Many figures in Germany are calling for an EU-wide ban on Russian gas imports, following the country's invasion of Ukraine in February.

But German employers and trade unions announced Monday they oppose such a move, saying it would lead to job losses and factory shutdowns in the EU's largest economy.

“A rapid gas embargo would lead to loss of production, shutdowns, a further de-industrialization and the long-term loss of work positions in Germany,” said Rainer Dulger, chairman of the BDA employer's group, and Reiner Hoffmann, chairman of the DGB trade union confederation, in a joint statement Monday.

Germany - alongside Italy, Hungary and Austria - is very dependent on Russian energy and has been one of the most reticent EU member states to sanction gas and oil imports from the country.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz has warned a sudden cut-off of Russian gas would plunge "all of Europe into a recession."

Analysts say an EU boycott of Russian energy would lead to higher energy prices, hurting consumers who are already facing a record EU inflation of 7.5%."

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/...unions-unite-to-oppose-eu-russian-gas-boycott


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"In the short term, the US sees the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of equipment to be vital to the Ukrainians’ ability to hold off Moscow’s invasion. A senior defense official said Tuesday that it is “certainly the largest recent supply to a partner country in a conflict.” But the risk, both current US officials and defense analysts say, is that in the long term, some of those weapons may wind up in the hands of other militaries and militias that the US did not intend to arm.

Because the US military is not on the ground, the US and NATO are heavily reliant on information provided by Ukraine’s government. Privately, officials recognize that Ukraine has an incentive to give only information that will bolster their case for more aid, more arms and more diplomatic assistance.

“It’s hard to track with nobody on the ground,” said one source familiar with the intelligence.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/19/politics/us-weapons-ukraine-intelligence/index.html


----------



## Furryanimal

Olena Roshchina – Wednesday, 20 April 2022, 08:33
Serhii Volynskyi (known as Volyna), Commander of the 36th Separate Marine Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, has called on foreign countries to undertake an "extraction" of people from Mariupol; that is, to evacuate military personnel and civilians to a safe place. He said that only a few hours, or at most days, remain for people to be saved.
Source: Serhii Volynskyi in a video address published by Nataliia Nahorna, a reporter
According to Volynskyi: "This is our appeal to the world. It could be our last appeal. We might only have a few days, or even hours, left.
The enemy forces are tens of times bigger than ours. They control the air and dominate in terms of artillery, land forces, equipment, and tanks.
We are holding the line of defence at one site, the Azovstal plant, which currently houses both the Mariupol military garrison and civilians trapped in the midst of the war.
We are asking world leaders to help us. We are asking them to carry out an "extraction" operation and evacuate us to the territory of a third country.

At the Mariupol military garrison, we have over 500 wounded soldiers and hundreds of civilians, including women and children. We ask to be given safety on the territory of a third country. Thank you."
Earlier: On the night of 19-20 April, Serhii Volynskyi shared a written address in which he described two scenarios for saving Mariupol: a military one involving a lightning strike, or a political one involving political agreements.
Earlier President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine said that Turkey was prepared to evacuate civilians and wounded soldiers from the besieged city by sea. Turkey has been holding negotiations concerning this, but so far these have not yielded results.
Background: "Exfiltration" or "extraction" is a tactic of removing personnel (military, civilian) from a hostile environment to a secure location in conditions where there is a threat of loss of control over the territory and death.


----------



## Furryanimal

Special report

https://kyivindependent.com/nationa...end-to-massacre-of-civilians-achieve-victory/


----------



## Furryanimal

Hide the Girls

https://kyivindependent.com/nationa...russian-soldiers-rape-and-torture-ukrainians/


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

Virgin founder Sir Richard Branson argued that business leaders should speak out and help to stop funding Russia's invasion of Ukraine in an interview with Euronews.

"Now is not the time for neutrality. Russia's invasion is unprovoked. It's unacceptable... business leaders should start to speak out."

Branson said that businesses could cut back on their "least profitable operations" and individuals can make small changes.

*If governments introduce speed limits and people cut electricity use, "we could take nearly three million barrels a day of oil out of the market".*

https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/20...iness-leaders-to-unite-to-stop-war-in-ukraine

Can there be that many people who want to go to these suggested extremes?


----------



## Furryanimal

Russian troops continue to make every effort to talk about at least some victories, but this will not help Russia in the war against Ukraine.
The relevant statement was made by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in his video address, an Ukrinform correspondent reports.
“In the south and east of our country, the occupiers continue to do everything to have a reason to talk about at least some victories. They are accumulating forces, driving new battalion tactical groups to our land. They are even trying to start the so-called mobilization in the occupied regions of Ukraine,” Zelensky told.
In his words, none of these steps will help Russia in the war against Ukraine. They can only delay the inevitable, i.e. the time when the invaders will have to leave Ukraine’s territory.
Meanwhile, the President of Ukraine is doing his best in the international arena to ensure that the world provides support for Ukraine. On April 21, 2022, Zelensky addressed the Parliament and the people of Portugal. This was the 26th address by the President of Ukraine to the parliaments of partner states. After that Zelensky addressed the participants of the special spring session of the World Bank. During the day, the President of Ukraine also met with the Prime Ministers of Spain and Denmark.
“I can say that each of these speeches really gives us additional support. Brings the decision to provide assistance to Ukraine, including defensive one, closer. And most importantly, each of these addresses helps establish a direct emotional connection between what we are experiencing in Ukraine and what the political class is experiencing in the partner countries,” Zelensky noted


----------



## oldman

Yesterday after church, we had a quick meeting with the organizer who is rounding up sponsors to bring Ukraine families here to America. The meeting only lasted about 10-15 minutes or so and it was only to bring everyone up to date on the applications that were submitted to the State Department and Homeland Security. When the meeting had ended, the organizer walked up to my wife and I and asked if he could have a word with us.

He told us that not to be surprised or feel degraded if our application is rejected. The organizer told us that most people who are over 70 years of age are not making out very well with having their application being accepted. My wife was heartbroken. We talked about it on the way home and I told her that maybe our daughter would be interested in taking our place, but we would foot the expenses. We’ll have to wait until we get the acceptance or rejection letter before moving forward.


----------



## Timewise 60+

So I hear on the news this morning that the USA is going to restaff the American Embassy in Ukraine?!  How the he__ is that going to work?  Seems like we are making a target for Putin to hit, so we an "officially" go to war!   This is very scary and makes no since...


----------



## Don M.

Ukraine is a tragedy.  But, with NATO, and the U.S. continuing to ramp up military supplies and equipment to Ukraine, we are just increasing the odds that Putin will expand his attacks beyond Ukraine.  The more "frustrated" Putin becomes with the setbacks the Russian military is experiencing, the more likely he will be to use a "tactical" nuke.  If that happens, the world is Screwed!


----------



## hollydolly

_Two newspapers - one Swedish, the other Finnish - have reported the governments of Sweden and Finland have agreed to submit NATO applications at the same time and that it will happen in the middle of next month. 

Finnish newspaper Iltalehti said that the Swedish government has expressed a wish to Finland that they apply together in the week starting May 22 and Swedish government sources confirmed the information to Sweden's Expressen tabloid.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has led to growing support in Sweden and Finland, a Russian neighbour, for joining NATO.

Though not members, both Nordic countries closely co-operate with NATO, allowing, among other things, the alliance's troops to carry out exercises on their soil.

Helsinki and Stockholm have also substantially intensified their bilateral defence co-operation in the past years, and there was talk earlier this month that the Nordic territories could both seek to join NATO in the coming months amid Russian aggression.

Sources told Sweden's SVD newspaper about the move on the same day that fellow neutral neighbour Finland started its debate on joining NATO after days of speculation it would do so. 

Sweden's prime minister Magdalena Andersson is understood to be eager for the country to join the trans-Atlantic alliance by June, to the fury of Vladimir Putin who invaded Ukraine in part for its desire to join to the pact.

Finland, along with neighbouring Sweden, has historically avoided NATO membership, despite close alignment with the West, in an effort not to provoke Russia. 

But Putin's invasion of Ukraine has decisively changed public opinion in the Scandinavian countries after Russia began the war with a barrage of rhetoric about stopping NATO expansion.  

The Swedish application was previously expected to be submitted by the NATO meeting in Madrid on June 29-20, according to Swedish reports earlier this month, but the latest information reported in the Swedish and Finnish press suggests this date may be brought forward.

Similarly, Finland is hoping to start its application process 'within weeks, not within months', its prime minister Sanna Marin said April 13. 

This comes despite Moscow lawmaker Vladimir Dzhabarov warning it would mean 'the destruction of the country'.

more here...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...NATO-membership-defiance-Russian-threats.html_


----------



## mellowyellow

oldman said:


> Yesterday after church, we had a quick meeting with the organizer who is rounding up sponsors to bring Ukraine families here to America. The meeting only lasted about 10-15 minutes or so and it was only to bring everyone up to date on the applications that were submitted to the State Department and Homeland Security. When the meeting had ended, the organizer walked up to my wife and I and asked if he could have a word with us.
> 
> He told us that not to be surprised or feel degraded if our application is rejected. The organizer told us that most people who are over 70 years of age are not making out very well with having their application being accepted. My wife was heartbroken. We talked about it on the way home and I told her that maybe our daughter would be interested in taking our place, but we would foot the expenses. We’ll have to wait until we get the acceptance or rejection letter before moving forward.


So sorry you were disappointed after your generous offer was rejected, but can’t help agreeing with the organizer that opening up your home to strangers at our age (over 70s) could be a very traumatic experience. A few days after the novelty wears off, the reality might not be as you imagined it to be.


----------



## oldman

mellowyellow said:


> So sorry you were disappointed after your generous offer was rejected, but can’t help agreeing with the organizer that opening up your home to strangers at our age (over 70s) could be a very traumatic experience. A few days after the novelty wears off, the reality might not be as you imagined it to be.


Thank you, but we haven’t been denied yet, but our hope has dwindled.


----------



## Furryanimal

Lavrov: 'Real risk' of nuclear war. The risk of a nuclear war shouldn’t be underestimated, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told state-controlled media on April 25. Lavrov already said on March 2 that if World War III were to take place, it would involve nuclear weapons and be destructive.
12:08 AM
Zelensky: 931 settlements liberated from Russian forces. In his daily address, President Volodymyr Zelensky also said that it was only a matter of time before Ukrainians liberate all their lands from Russian troops. .
Kyiv Independent


----------



## hollydolly

_Ukrainian grandmother has narrowly escaped death after a Russian soldier gave her a boobytrapped carton of milk loaded with explosives.

In a disturbing new twist to Putin's war on Ukraine, Russian soldiers are now pretending to hand out 'humanitarian aid'.

But when the pensioner from the besieged city of Kherson went to open the screw top carton she noticed wires attached to the lid.

Further investigation revealed the wires led to a detonator.

The OAP's son told local media in.kherson.ua: 'My retired mother noticed that there was something wrong with this milk, as if someone had been drinking from it before, or if it was broken.

'She carefully unscrewed the cap and showed me what was there.'

The boobytrapped milk carton contained a homemade explosive attached to a fishing line which when opened would detonate the bomb.

Click here for the video... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...d-BOMB-given-grandmother-Russian-soldier.html















_


----------



## oldman

I heard on an NPR radio broadcast, that the Russian soldiers were ordered to kill all Ukraines they came in contact with. If that is true, I can’t understand why someone near Putin hasn’t sacrificed himself for the good of humanity by taking him out.


----------



## Pepper

oldman said:


> I heard on an NPR radio broadcast, that the Russian soldiers were ordered to kill all Ukraines they came in contact with. If that is true, I can’t understand why someone near Putin hasn’t sacrificed himself for the good of humanity by taking him out.


It must be really hard to do, being surrounded by security.  I appreciate your sentiment!  Thank you.


----------



## hollydolly

oldman said:


> I heard on an NPR radio broadcast, that the Russian soldiers were ordered to kill all Ukraines they came in contact with. If that is true, I can’t understand why someone near Putin hasn’t sacrificed himself for the good of humanity by taking him out.


I agree.. 

With regard the milk carton bomb/s.. I suspect that these photographs of the soldiers handing out food supplies to the elderly Ukrainian people are the ones being distributed to the Russian people as 'proof' that Russia is caring for the People, and that the West's propaganda is all lies... ..no-one will be showing the photos of the_ inside_ of these milk or food cartons..


----------



## Pepper

My grandma was born & raised in Odesa.  I know that is a tenuous connection, but when I hear they've been assaulted by Russia it really hurts.


----------



## hollydolly

Pepper said:


> My grandma was born & raised in Odesa.  I know that is a tenuous connection, but when I hear they've been assaulted by Russia it really hurts.


not a tenous connection at all.. you're quarter  Ukrainian . Do you have any relatives still in Ukraine ?


----------



## Pepper

hollydolly said:


> not a tenous connection at all.. you're quarter  Ukrainian . Do you have any relatives still in Ukraine ?


I don't know.  I would assume cousins, but I don't know.  I know most Jews have left Odesa.  In my Grandma's time it was mostly a Jewish ghetto, but my Jewish Ukrainian neighbor from Odesa told me most Jews left and Odesa is now considered Christian.  So glad this neighbor & her family left.  They are wonderful people.


----------



## oldman

I never fully understood why the Russians have such disregard and hate for the Jews. I do remember when I was in college and took a year of world history, our professor gave a lecture on the Jewish that lived in Germany, Russia and Ukraine. He stated that the reason the Germans hated the Jews was because they had blamed their loss of WWI on the Jews. This was why they decided to annihilate the Jewish population during WWII.

The Russians supposedly were taught that they were superior to the Jews. I think many, many Jews have settled in Ukraine. Both countries, Germany and Russia shared prejudices against the Jews. Both countries are still considered to be anti semitic.


----------



## hollydolly

_Kyiv today accused Russia of trying to 'destabilise' Moldova's breakaway region that borders Ukraine after two explosions there prompted fears of Russia launching 'false flag' attacks to justify invading the territory.

The explosions destroyed two powerful Soviet-era radio antennas that were re-broadcasting Russian stations in the region of Transnistria, an unrecognised Moscow-backed sliver of land bordering southwestern Ukraine, on Tuesday. 

The blasts occurred in the small town of Maiac roughly 12 kilometers (7 miles) west of the border with Ukraine, just days after a Kremlin military chief warned that 'Russian-speakers' had been 'oppressed' there.

A day earlier, several explosions believed to be caused by rocket-propelled grenades were reported to hit the Ministry of State Security in the city of Tiraspol, the region's capital. No one was hurt in the explosions, officials said.

On Tuesday, a military unit in the village of Parcani was also targeted. Officials did not offer any details on the incident, but declared a 'red level of terrorist threat' and promised to impose additional security measures in the region.

Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak accused Russia of trying to destabilise Transnistria and warned that 'if Ukraine falls tomorrow, Russian troops will be at Chisinau', the Moldovan capital. 

'Russia wants to destabilise the Transnistrian region and hints Moldova should wait for 'guests',' Podolyak said. 

'Good news, Ukraine will definitely ensure strategic security of the region. But we need to work as a team.'

The United States has warned amid the war in Ukraine that Russia could launch 'false-flag' attacks in nearby nations as a pretext for sending in troops.

Last week, Kremlin military chief Rustam Minnekayev said Russia sought control of southern Ukraine, which could provide access to Transnistria, 'where there have been cases of oppression of the Russian-speaking population'.






The explosions destroyed two powerful Soviet-era radio antennas that were re-broadcasting Russian stations in the region of Transnistria, an unrecognised Moscow-backed sliver of land bordering southwestern Ukraine today Tuesday

Transnistria, a strip of land with about 470,000 people between Moldova and Ukraine, is recognised internationally as part of Moldova but is effectively controlled by Russia, which has given citizenship to separatists
For pictures, video and more story... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...reakaway-Moldovan-region-borders-Ukraine.html_


----------



## todalake

Don M. said:


> Ukraine is a tragedy.  But, with NATO, and the U.S. continuing to ramp up military supplies and equipment to Ukraine, we are just increasing the odds that Putin will expand his attacks beyond Ukraine.  The more "frustrated" Putin becomes with the setbacks the Russian military is experiencing, the more likely he will be to use a "tactical" nuke.  If that happens, the world is Screwed!


If world gives into Putin now,  he will be embolden to continue  to take over more countries.   Where to stop him?   If a nuke is used,  I'm sure he will say it was used by the west to blame Russia.   Just like all the destruction to hospitals,  schools, civilian homes  wasn't done by Russian troops according to Putin.   What all would you give because of threat of 'tactical nuke'?  Ukraine, Poland,  Europe,  Alaska,  California????     New Zealand,  Australia, Fuji,  etc look like pretty good places to live now.


----------



## Timewise 60+

The biggest concern I have is that the USA currently is not prepared to protect itself from a full out nuclear attack by Russia and/or China.  Just like in 1941 when our government was 'asleep at the wheel' when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor!  Pearl Harbor cost us thousands of lives that day, today, if attacked it will cost millions of lives....and begin WWIII.  Which may not be survivable to most>>>


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> *The biggest concern I have is that the USA currently is not prepared to protect itself from a full out nuclear attack by Russia and/or China.*  Just like in 1941 when our government was 'asleep at the wheel' when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor!  Pearl Harbor cost us thousands of lives that day, today, if attacked it will cost millions of lives....and begin WWIII.  Which may not be survivable to most>>>


we're the same, absolutely not prepared...we barely even have an army or navy now, much less  fighting ones.. but he'd have to nuke us, and he knows it, because we'd still tan his hide in  combat ..ready or not!


----------



## Timewise 60+

hollydolly....as the son of a WWII soldier, I love the United Kingdom, they stood alone for far too long in WWII, holding the German horde at bay!  Only God knows what would have happened if the UK did not stop Hitler cold...!

They say, history repeats itself, hopefully not with the Russians...


----------



## hollydolly

Uk..pop : 67 million


*Russia is 70 times bigger than the UK.. pop : 144 million*
Germany is 1.5 times bigger.  Pop : 83 million

Canada 41 times Larger : 38 million
Usa 40 times larger than the UK  : 329 million
Brazil 35 times larger : Pop 212 million
Australia 35 times larger : 25 million
India 13 times larger...  :  Pop :*1 billion, 380 million.... *

Well  Brits are notoriously not afraid to stand up for themselves, but with Russia 70 times larger , and with a population of 80 million more, and now Putin  getting into bed comfortably with India ... it  would be a little bit of an unfair fight for this tiny Island, unless we had our friends from over the pond on our side and from the other side of the world..NZ & Australia .. as with the last war..

Anyway please god it never happens


----------



## Jules

It seems like the best hope is for the oligarchs to turn on Putin.  They enjoy their lifestyle and this war isn’t helping them.


----------



## hollydolly

Jules said:


> It seems like the best hope is for the oligarchs to turn on Putin.  They enjoy their lifestyle and this war isn’t helping them.


especially now that the uk have removed all of their toys and property since the onset of the war with Ukraine


----------



## Timewise 60+

hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


ok well I won't worry... I'll just wait to be nuked....

Actually I remember even when I was a child, my mother would talk then..60 years ago about the fact that any future wars would be nuclear.. ( altho' as we can see with Ukraine it's all on the ground combat)...  but she would talk about how '' you won't know anything about it, you''ll get dissolved in a second''...

Other mothers read their children, fairy tales.. mine preferred to scare us to death!!


----------



## Furryanimal

oldman said:


> I heard on an NPR radio broadcast, that the Russian soldiers were ordered to kill all Ukraines they came in contact with. If that is true, I can’t understand why someone near Putin hasn’t sacrificed himself for the good of humanity by taking him out.


A question I am asking all the time.


----------



## Furryanimal

And it’s the anniversary of Chornobyl ...another disaster that hit Soviet Ukraine


----------



## Murrmurr

Timewise 60+ said:


> hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, *I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation*.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


Yes they can. The US military has 2 main concerns right now; refitting our big guns and radar systems so they can operate without our military satellites, and protecting our military satellites. Our military had fallen behind until congress OKed a huge budget several years ago, and they just OKed another one. Our military is playing catch-up now, but meanwhile we're using every non-military weapon at our disposal, like the toughest sanctions ever imposed, deep spies, the internet, and the market.


----------



## JonSR77

oldman said:


> I never fully understood why the Russians have such disregard and hate for the Jews. I do remember when I was in college and took a year of world history, our professor gave a lecture on the Jewish that lived in Germany, Russia and Ukraine. He stated that the reason the Germans hated the Jews was because they had blamed their loss of WWI on the Jews. This was why they decided to annihilate the Jewish population during WWII.
> 
> The Russians supposedly were taught that they were superior to the Jews. I think many, many Jews have settled in Ukraine. Both countries, Germany and Russia shared prejudices against the Jews. Both countries are still considered to be anti semitic.



The history of Anti-Semitism is long and involved. But a short overview might give some basic structure to what has been going on.

The Catholic Church forbade usury, the loaning of money in the economic form that became capitalism.

That was true, right through the year 1400 or so.

As a result, the Christians (they were all Catholic back then), made the Jews in the community, the bankers. Since their religious laws forbade the kinds of economic dealings they wanted to make...they made the Jews the bankers.

And, guess what? The bankers were always the richest people...and so, the Jews who were made the bankers, were rich.

The rich are always envied. When they come from a different culture...they are more of a target.



So, the Christians made the Jews the bankers, then hated them for becoming bankers. 


Can't make this stuff up.


That is a huge basis for all the Anti-Semitism in the modern world.


As far as the Nazis are concerned, it is really better to think of them not as an ideology, but as a Mafia. One of Hitler's inner circle, was, in fact, the actual Mafia boss of Berlin.

They were power hungry murderous thugs, murdering their way to the top of the political ladder. They used anything to gain power. Hatred of Jews was ripe in Europe at the time. Anger at the peace treaty of World War I was huge in Germany at the time. They used both things to get the public on their side. What did they actually believe?

Well, I think it was Goerbels...he had a sister. His sister was married to a guy who was either Jewish or half-Jewish. So, as an ideologue, what did he do? Did he have his sister arrested? Did he have her husband killed? Nope...he smuggled both of them out of Germany, with about 20 of their Jewish friends.

Personally, I think they were much more Mafia people than anything else. They built a city of mansions in Bavaria, I think. They all had incredible paintings and wine cellars and mistresses and you name it. They were not following some ideology...they were just stealing for themselves.

I am sure there was some Anti-Semitism in the mix, but most of it was for political expedience.


----------



## JonSR77

The Russians also had a long history of Anti-Semitism.  They created the Pale of Settlement.  It was a large ghetto. The Jews were only allowed to live in that ghetto.

Ukraine was part of The Pale of Settlement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_of_Settlement


----------



## Pepper

@JonSR77
315AD
Constantine I enacts various laws regarding the Jews: Jews are not allowed to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism is outlawed. Congregations for religious services are restricted, but Jews are also allowed to enter the restituted Jerusalem on the anniversary of the Temple's destruction.
...................................
1298
Accusations of Host desecration against the German Jews. More than *140 Jewish communities face forced conversions.*
1298
During the civil war between Adolph of Nassau and Albrecht of Austria, German knight Rintfleisch claims to have *received a mission from heaven to exterminate "the accursed race of the Jews"*. Under his leadership, the mob goes from town to town destroying Jewish communities and massacring about 100,000 Jews, often by mass burning at stake. Among 146 localities in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria are Röttingen (20 April), Würzburg (24 July), Nuremberg (1 August).
......................................
Your reasoning as per banking is merely one part of more modern anti Jewish feelings.  I'm sorry, but to rely on that one issue is simplistic.  It goes deeper than that by over 1,000 years.


----------



## JimBob1952

hollydolly said:


> Uk..pop : 67 million
> 
> 
> *Russia is 70 times bigger than the UK.. pop : 144 million*
> Germany is 1.5 times bigger.  Pop : 83 million
> 
> Canada 41 times Larger : 38 million
> Usa 40 times larger than the UK  : 329 million
> Brazil 35 times larger : Pop 212 million
> Australia 35 times larger : 25 million
> India 13 times larger...  :  Pop :*1 billion, 380 million.... *
> 
> Well  Brits are notoriously not afraid to stand up for themselves, but with Russia 70 times larger , and with a population of 80 million more, and now Putin  getting into bed comfortably with India ... it  would be a little bit of an unfair fight for this tiny Island, unless we had our friends from over the pond on our side and from the other side of the world..NZ & Australia .. as with the last war..
> 
> Anyway please god it never happens



I guarantee you that the Russians do not want to fight the Germans.  Not under any circumstances.  Just like the Chinese don't ever want to fight the Japanese again.


----------



## JonSR77

met someone from Ukraine today.

Back at the dentist, re oral surgery I had.

One of the staff had an odd accent. I asked her where she was from.

She said,"Urkaine." I asked her if she had people still over there. She nodded.

She was very somber.

I felt horrible for her.

Very moving moment.

When it is live and in front of you....much more powerful.


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> we're the same, absolutely not prepared...we barely even have an army or navy now, much less  fighting ones.. but he'd have to nuke us, and he knows it, because we'd still tan his hide in  combat ..ready or not!


It's the same here although our defense minister on ANZAC day stated that we need to be prepared for War.
How on Earth do you prepare for a Nuclear attack without a pre-emptive strike first?


----------



## JimBob1952

Timewise 60+ said:


> hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


 
I disagree.  The UK is our staunchest ally.  We have a "special relationship" as well as the legal obligations that go with being NATO members to defend the UK if it is attacked by Russia.  And every NATO member has the same obligation.  Putin may be crazy, but he's not stupid, and I think he understands this as well.


----------



## Knight

Threat of a nuclear attack takes me back to school days when getting under a desk was a solution. Even though I have a desk that my computer & keyboard sit on I'm  smarter now & know getting under it won't do me any good.
I just have start doing exercises to limber up enough to be able to bend over enough to kiss my own a$$ goodbye.


----------



## dseag2

Timewise 60+ said:


> hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


Sorry, but politics are not allowed in this forum.  This is an interesting thread.  Sorry you may have spoiled it.


----------



## john19485

Furryanimal said:


> A question I am asking all the time.





Furryanimal said:


> A question I am asking all the time.


Had an interview from NPR radio last Saturday, they were just young college kids. The interview was about my Military days.


----------



## Timewise 60+

dseag2 said:


> Sorry, but politics are not allowed in this forum.  This is an interesting thread.  Sorry you may have spoiled it.


dseag2...."Come on man!"  I used no names, no political parties, nothing political here!  You want "political" look at JimBob1952 response to my post...


----------



## oldman

I often wonder if we (the U.S.) is not underestimating Putin. Some of our politicians believe he is ill. If that’s the case, I would consider him to be more dangerous. Just like a wounded animal, he is more likely to become an even tougher adversary. Putin has already talked about the use of nuclear weapons to end the war, so we at least know it’s on his mind. He cannot lose this war, otherwise, he will be ousted from power probably in a shameful manner, which to him would be unacceptable.

Late yesterday, he told Poland and Bulgaria that he would only sell them gas, if they paid In Roubles. Daytime temps are now above 50 degrees in Poland for the most part, but at nighttime, the temps slip to around freezing, so heat will be needed. They also need gas for industry. This is another form of ransom by Putin to get money to pay for his war.

Russia is just not in a good position right now, suffering so many casualty losses of their Army. If he feels desperate, like any animal, it’s hard to say what he may resort to. This all comes down to the fact that he underestimated Ukraine. However, if it weren’t for the U.S. sending as much aid as we have, who is to say what their position or condition would be. I think we will know the outcome within the next 30-60 days. Regardless of a win or loss, many Ukraines are suffering. Some don’t even have housing.

A lot of uncertainty.


----------



## JimBob1952

Timewise 60+ said:


> dseag2...."Come on man!"  I used no names, no political parties, nothing political here!  You want "political" look at JimBob1952 response to my post...


I didn't think my response was particularly political.  With that said, I admit I run afoul of the moderators here all the time, so I'm probably wrong.  My wife says she wants the inscription on my tombstone to read:  "Often wrong, but never in doubt."


----------



## Timewise 60+

JimBob1952...we share the same challenge!  You are a good sport for sure, and you have a very smart wife...


----------



## Em in Ohio

Guaranteed mutual destruction.  What a waste.  Just as predicted in so many sci-fi flics.  But this isn't the movies.  In my opinion, certain leaders should have been removed long before the atrocities began.  We saw the build-up.  We knew what was coming.  Lesson that should be learned is that you can not negotiate with mad men.


----------



## oldman

Timewise 60+ said:


> hollydolly...unfortunately, with things being what they are in Washington DC now, I fear that one cannot 'depend' on our help in a war situation.  We lack intestinal fortitude by our leadership...!  Don't worry through, numbers of soldiers or people really does not count in a nuclear war.


I doubt if the citizens of the U.S. would stand for sending troops to Ukraine. All we can give them are weapons and money and even the money we are giving them is not coming from the treasury, but is being printed, which translates into more debt.  As a nation, we are broke and now facing a possible recession.


----------



## Don M.

The U.S., and NATO better "tread lightly" with this madman Putin.  Ukraine is a total tragedy, but this war could easily and quickly spread to an all out global disaster if Putin goes even more Nuts.


----------



## WhatInThe

US Russia make prisoner trade a Russian pilot accused of drug smuggling and an ex US Marine accused of spying.

https://www.barrons.com/news/moscow...or-russian-pilot-in-prisoner-swap-01651064708

Russia trades for a pilot in a time of protracted war. Hmmm


----------



## hollydolly

*Breaking News :... 

Vladimir Putin has vowed to use nuclear weapons against any country that dares to  'interfere' with Russia's war in Ukraine in his latest chilling threat to the West.

The despot, addressing legislators in St Petersburg today, said his response to anyone who 'threatens' Russia will be 'lightning-fast' and deadly.
*
'If someone intends to interfere in what is going on from the outside they must know that constitutes an unacceptable strategic threat to Russia. They must know that our response to counter strikes will be lightning fast. Fast,' he said.

'We have all the weapons we need for this. No one else can brag about these weapons, and we won’t brag about them. But we will use them.' 

Though Putin did not mention nuclear weapons directly, he was almost certainly referring to Russia's new Sarmat 2 nuclear missile which was tested for the first time just days ago and that he boasted is unlike any other weapon in the world. 

Click here for the story and Video of Putin making his speech..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10759651/Ukraine-war-Putin-suggest-use-nukes-necessary.html


----------



## OneEyedDiva

Pepper said:


> If Le Pen wins in France, everything will be different, for the worse, for all of Europe, IMO.  Can't say anymore, re: ban on Political discussions.


I can't imagine. I dislike politics but have to keep abreast of at least the basics (sigh ). However, I'm so glad she didn't win!

@JonSR77  I'm sure New York would be one of the main targets of nukes.  Because of our residential proximity, we'd be toast for sure if that were to happen.  
@oldman _"If nukes would be used, we would all be vaporized or die from radiation poisoning. Would a new world begin? I don’t know."_
I'm sure they wouldn't stop at New York...so unfortunately you'd be right.


----------



## hollydolly

*European gas prices surged 24 percent today after Russian energy giant Gazprom halted gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria for failing to pay for its gas in roubles, as President Vladimir Putin ordered last month.*

The move is the Kremlin's toughest response yet to crippling Western sanctions imposed over Moscow's brutal on-going invasion of Ukraine, that have sent the Russian economy - and the value of the rouble - into a nosedive. 

Moscow said that the 'unfriendly' countries had only themselves to blame, but denied the move was blackmail.

'The need for a new payment method was a result of unprecedented unfriendly steps in the economic sphere and the financial sector, which were taken against us by unfriendly countries,' Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Wednesday. He warned that other European customers may see the taps turned off if they refuse to pay for gas in roubles by the time payment is due. 

Peskov argued that refusing to switch to roubles reflects a Western desire to 'punish Russia at any cost to the detriment of their own consumers, taxpayers and producers.'

He rejected the EU's description of the Russian move to halt supplies to Bulgaria and Poland starting Wednesday as blackmail, insisting that 'Russia has remained a reliable supplier of energy resources' and stuck to its contractual obligations. Peskov argued that the demand for payment in roubles is purely technical and doesn't change price or other contract conditions for consumers.

In response to Russia's decision, the UK warned Putin that Russia's move will only add to its status as an economic and political pariah, while Poland, Bulgaria the EU and Ukraine all accused Moscow of blackmailing the two countries, which said they will end their dependencies on Russian gas.

European Union Commission President Ursula von der Leyen also called the move 'yet another attempt by Russia to use gas as an instrument of blackmail. This is unjustified and unacceptable.' 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...land-toughest-response-Western-sanctions.html


----------



## hollydolly

OneEyedDiva said:


> I can't imagine. I dislike politics but have to keep abreast of at least the basics (sigh ). However, I'm so glad she didn't win!
> 
> @JonSR77  I'm sure New York would be one of the main targets of nukes.  Because of our residential proximity, we'd be toast if that were to happen.


Le Pen ..lost !! Macron remains


----------



## oldman

Don M. said:


> The U.S., and NATO better "tread lightly" with this madman Putin.  Ukraine is a total tragedy, but this war could easily and quickly spread to an all out global disaster if Putin goes even more Nuts.


My point exactly. We don’t want to underestimate his ability to go completely whacko.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> Le Pen ..lost !! Macron remains


Yes...that's what I said?  "I'm so glad she *didn't* win!"


----------



## oldman

Has anyone ever seen on the Smithsonian Channel what happened to the people who were nearby where the A-bomb exploded in Hiroshima during WWII? If you were standing within feet where the bomb exploded, all that would be left is perhaps a few bones.


----------



## JimBob1952

Timewise 60+ said:


> JimBob1952...we share the same challenge!  You are a good sport for sure, and you have a very smart wife...


Thank you.  Actually I think we're on the same page a lot of the time but let's keep that to ourselves.  And you're right about my wife.


----------



## hollydolly

oldman said:


> Has anyone ever seen on the Smithsonian Channel what happened to the people who were nearby where the A-bomb exploded in Hiroshima during WWII? If you were standing within feet where the bomb exploded, all that would be left is perhaps a few bones.


I've certainly seen many documentaries about it..over the years


----------



## oldman

hollydolly said:


> I've certainly seen many documentaries about it..over the years


If anyone is standing anywhere near the explosion, the heat is so great that it actually all but disintegrates the body at about 180,000 degrees. About the only thing that would be left standing is perhaps a few bones.


----------



## Tish

Hopefully, Australia's looming Election will distract SCOMO from the situation, but I very much doubt it.
Add to that China's interest in the Solomon Islands and the threat of war is barking at our backdoor.

In all honesty though, how does one prepare for Nukes?


----------



## oldman

Tish said:


> Hopefully, Australia's looming Election will distract SCOMO from the situation, but I very much doubt it.
> Add to that China's interest in the Solomon Islands and the threat of war is barking at our backdoor.
> 
> In all honesty though, how does one prepare for Nukes?


Get a ticket to the South Pole. According to many scientists, geologists, oceanographers and anyone else that has studied this question, they say the South Pole is the safest place to be if a nuclear war should break out. I don’t know offhand of any airlines that fly to Antarctica.


----------



## hollydolly

oldman said:


> Get a ticket to the South Pole. According to many scientists, geologists, oceanographers and anyone else that has studied this question, they say the South Pole is the safest place to be if a nuclear war should break out. I don’t know offhand of any airlines that fly to Antarctica.


...but do they have a Macdonalds?


----------



## john19485

nuclear war is going to happen , its just a matter of who is going to push the button


----------



## dseag2

oldman said:


> Get a ticket to the South Pole. According to many scientists, geologists, oceanographers and anyone else that has studied this question, they say the South Pole is the safest place to be if a nuclear war should break out. I don’t know offhand of any airlines that fly to Antarctica.


I think you have to fly into Ushuaia, Argentina and take a ship to the Antarctic so that's one's out!


----------



## kburra

Putin`s threat to wipe Britain off the map, by sending a Nuclear missile with 15 warheads, if they continue to arm Ukraine?, and then of course Britain with all of its nuclear Submarines (Everywhere) would retaliate. We now have a nuclear winter and the end of civilization as we know it!
Probably Cockroaches and Ants would survive, but not much else, comforting isn't it?


----------



## mellowyellow

Can't believe the Ukrainians incredible resolve and thinking of those poor souls under the steelworks, the food and water must gone by now.


----------



## oldman

kburra said:


> Putin`s threat to wipe Britain off the map, by sending a Nuclear missile with 15 warheads, if they continue to arm Ukraine?, and then of course Britain with all of its nuclear Submarines (Everywhere) would retaliate. We now have a nuclear winter and the end of civilization as we know it!
> Probably Cockroaches and Ants would survive, but not much else, comforting isn't it?


This is what concerns me the most. Putin himself is bad enough. But Putin with mental issues is almost terrifying.


----------



## Timewise 60+

I always keep in mind, that since the first Bomb in Japan, the world leaders had to realize for the first time, that they could no longer be guaranteed survival in a war.  You cannot hide from a nuclear blast!  If the Bomb doesn't kill you the fallout will!  Putin knows, if he starts a nuclear war, he cannot be assured of his own survival.  And he, like most ego leaders, will not risk it!


----------



## Knight

Using nuclear to subdue Ukraine makes no sense. Nuclear fallout carried by winds would cause death in NATO countries. That in turn would call for all out destruction of Russia. The threat is one thing those charged with carrying out that threat surely know what the consequences are. 

Is it likely that those with their fingers on the buttons to wipe out themselves & their families are going to follow the direction of one man?


----------



## Don M.

If someone were Stupid enough to launch a nuclear attack, Washington and Moscow would be the primary targets....followed closely by places like NYC, LA, London, Paris, etc., etc.  Governments would be wiped out, and chaos and millions of deaths would be the result.  

Another major danger is a huge cyber attack on the infrastructures.  No electricity, no internet, no TV or phone service, etc.  Within days, half the populations would go Nuts, and people would be at risk just exiting their house.


----------



## hollydolly

These are the faces of Evil... 







Ukrainian military officials have pictured and revealed names of Russian soldiers dubbed the 'Despicable Ten' who they accuse of carrying out war crimes in Bucha.

The Ukrainian Ministry of Defence released the names and faces of the men, stating: 'Ten Russian butchers from the 64th brigade have been identified and named suspects responsible for committing the Bucha massacre.

'This unit [has] been awarded for its atrocities, and returned to the battlefield. Justice for war criminals is inevitable.'

Horrific images of dozens of bodies in civilian clothes lying in the streets, some with their hands tied behind their backs, in Bucha and other towns around Kyiv, shocked the world when they emerged earlier this month. There were also reports of mass rapes.

Amid global outrage over the killings, the leader of the 'Butchers of Bucha' Russian brigade was promoted from Lieutenant Colonel to full Colonel last week.

Ukraine Prosecutor General Iryna Venediktova said today: 'We will not stop until we bring each of them to justice.'

The Prosecutor General's office and news agency Slidstvo scoured the internet for the personal information of the ten men.

Aged between 24 and 33, the corporals, sergeants and privates in the 64th Motorized Brigade are now thought to be fighting in the Donbas.

More than 400 mutilated, tortured and murdered corpses were discovered in Bucha days after reports emerged of widespread war crimes in the Kyiv suburb as Russian troops withdrew.

Last week alleged ringleader the 'Butcher of Bucha' Commander Azatbek Omurbekov was promoted from Lieutenant Colonel to full Colonel.

It came despite his men standing accused of gang rapes, tortures and civilian executions.

Soon after receiving the honours, the unit was then redeployed to the eastern Donbas front, one of the most dangerous in the conflict. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ls-faces-Russians-accused-Butchers-Bucha.html


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> I always keep in mind, that since the first Bomb in Japan, the world leaders had to realize for the first time, that they could no longer be guaranteed survival in a war.  You cannot hide from a nuclear blast!  If the Bomb doesn't kill you the fallout will!  Putin knows, if he starts a nuclear war, he cannot be assured of his own survival.  And he, like most ego leaders, will not risk it!


I'd like to think the same, but if the supposition is correct and Putin is suffering from a terminal illness, will he care if he doesn't survive ?>


----------



## hollydolly

*Vladimir Putin will launch an all-out nuclear war on the West rather than accept defeat in Ukraine, Russia's chief propagandists have declared, in just the latest chilling threat coming from Moscow.

Margarita Simonyan, editor of state broadcaster RT and one of the Kremlin's highest-profile mouthpieces, declared on TV last night that the idea of Putin pressing the red button is 'more probable' than the idea that he will allow Russia to lose the war.*

'Either we lose in Ukraine,' she said, 'or the Third World War starts. I think World War Three is more realistic, knowing us, knowing our leader. 

*'The most incredible outcome, that all this will end with a nuclear strike, seems more probable to me than the other course of events.

'This is to my horror on one hand,' she told a panel of experts shifting nervously in their seats, 'but on the other hand, it is what it is. We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... We're all going to die someday.'
*
Simonyan's calm imagining of nuclear holocaust is just the latest threat issued from the top levels of the Russian state, after fellow propagandist Vladimir Solovyov, foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, and Putin himself issued threats in the last 48 hours.

The US and UK have dismissed such rhetoric as bluster but the increasing frequency of the threats coupled with the failures of Russia's military will raise fears that a Cold War-style standoff is now a realistic possibility before the war in Ukraine ends.

It comes after Russia successfully test-launched its latest nuclear missile - Sarmat 2 - last week, with Putin boasting it can strike targets anywhere on earth and cannot be stopped by any current missile defences. 

Click here for the video... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html


----------



## Pepper

He's gotta be taken out.


----------



## Timewise 60+

*Russia's chief propagandists = someone trained to scare the hell out of people!  Truth is not in their vocabulary....

Russian's generally are not Christian!  *


----------



## oldman

hollydolly said:


> *Vladimir Putin will launch an all-out nuclear war on the West rather than accept defeat in Ukraine, Russia's chief propagandists have declared, in just the latest chilling threat coming from Moscow.
> 
> Margarita Simonyan, editor of state broadcaster RT and one of the Kremlin's highest-profile mouthpieces, declared on TV last night that the idea of Putin pressing the red button is 'more probable' than the idea that he will allow Russia to lose the war.*
> 
> 'Either we lose in Ukraine,' she said, 'or the Third World War starts. I think World War Three is more realistic, knowing us, knowing our leader.
> 
> *'The most incredible outcome, that all this will end with a nuclear strike, seems more probable to me than the other course of events.
> 
> 'This is to my horror on one hand,' she told a panel of experts shifting nervously in their seats, 'but on the other hand, it is what it is. We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... We're all going to die someday.'*
> 
> Simonyan's calm imagining of nuclear holocaust is just the latest threat issued from the top levels of the Russian state, after fellow propagandist Vladimir Solovyov, foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, and Putin himself issued threats in the last 48 hours.
> 
> The US and UK have dismissed such rhetoric as bluster but the increasing frequency of the threats coupled with the failures of Russia's military will raise fears that a Cold War-style standoff is now a realistic possibility before the war in Ukraine ends.
> 
> It comes after Russia successfully test-launched its latest nuclear missile - Sarmat 2 - last week, with Putin boasting it can strike targets anywhere on earth and cannot be stopped by any current missile defences.
> 
> Click here for the video... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html


I just heard on TV that Putin is likely to launch a low level nuke to try to scare the hell out of everyone, but the person talking said he doubts that he would start a full scale nuclear war. In reality, no one knows what’s going on in his mind.


----------



## hollydolly

oldman said:


> I just heard on TV that Putin is likely to launch a low level nuke to try to scare the hell out of everyone, but the person talking said he doubts that he would start a full scale nuclear war. In reality, no one knows what’s going on in his mind.


Low level high level.. the minute Putin or anyone launches any type of nuclear attack they're going to have several nuclear warheads pointed directly at them...


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> *Russia's chief propagandists = someone trained to scare the hell out of people!  Truth is not in their vocabulary....
> 
> Russian's generally are not Christian!  *


What has Christian got to do with truth?


----------



## Timewise 60+

hollydolly said:


> What has Christian got to do with truth?


Dealing with the quote you provided in the original post...see below!

*'This is to my horror on one hand,' she told a panel of experts shifting nervously in their seats, 'but on the other hand, it is what it is. We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... We're all going to die someday.'

Therefore, as a probable non-Christian she is lying! = not truthful!*


----------



## hollydolly

I understand your meaning..I just don't understand that as a non Christian it follows she must be lying...


----------



## oldman

hollydolly said:


> Low level high level.. the minute Putin or anyone launches any type of nuclear attack they're going to have several nuclear warheads pointed directly at them...


Putin also made the comment that any country that continues to give aid to Ukraine will be considered their ally and would be open to attack. The guy on TV then said that Putin will not attack another country because he lacks the manpower to do so. I was thinking, yeah, that may be right, but he has a whole arsenal of jets and nukes. Like I already said, I would not take him for granted on doing anything  to win at all costs.


----------



## Timewise 60+

hollydolly said:


> Low level high level.. the minute Putin or anyone launches any type of nuclear attack they're going to have several nuclear warheads pointed directly at them...


Weapons in GB and USA are already pointed straight at them...!


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> Weapons in GB and USA are already pointed straight at them...!


yes perhaps.. but I meant really that they would toast....


----------



## Tish

mellowyellow said:


> Can't believe the Ukrainians incredible resolve and thinking of those poor souls under the steelworks, the food and water must gone by now.
> 
> View attachment 219035


For them, it's a matter of survival.


----------



## SeniorBen

Knight said:


> Using nuclear to subdue Ukraine makes no sense. Nuclear fallout carried by winds would cause death in NATO countries. That in turn would call for all out destruction of Russia. The threat is one thing those charged with carrying out that threat surely know what the consequences are.
> 
> Is it likely that those with their fingers on the buttons to wipe out themselves & their families are going to follow the direction of one man?


Prevailing winds would carry the radiation back into Russia moreso than into NATO countries, so I'm not sure that's a factor, unless Putin waits for a disruption to the jetstream.


----------



## Murrmurr

oldman said:


> Putin also made the comment that any country that continues to give aid to Ukraine will be considered their ally and would be open to attack. The guy on TV then said that Putin will not attack another country because he lacks the manpower to do so. I was thinking, yeah, that may be right, but he has a whole arsenal of jets and nukes. Like I already said, I would not take him for granted on doing anything  to win at all costs.


Fortunately, the US has interception missiles already calibrated for anything launched from Russia. I read that the US military is fitting them (or has fit them) with alternative power sources in case we lose our military satellites. And they're doing the same with our naval warships. In fact, they've already fitted and tested two of our largest warships....at least, that's what the article said.


----------



## SeniorBen

Timewise 60+ said:


> *Russia's chief propagandists = someone trained to scare the hell out of people!  Truth is not in their vocabulary....
> 
> Russian's generally are not Christian!  *


Putin is a Russian Orthodox Christian. He's often seen with his crucifix on full display.
https://www.timesargus.com/opinion/...cle_760a3eda-de88-5cf5-a18a-3b5d03b8b5cc.html

63% of the Russian population identify as Christian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Russia


----------



## Pepper

SeniorBen said:


> Putin is a Russian Orthodox Christian. He's often seen with his crucifix on full display.
> https://www.timesargus.com/opinion/...cle_760a3eda-de88-5cf5-a18a-3b5d03b8b5cc.html


That doesn't necessarily make him religious believer.  It could make him a hypocrite and/or exploiter of opinion for his own reasons.


----------



## Murrmurr

Pepper said:


> That doesn't necessarily make him religious believer.  It could make him a hypocrite and/or exploiter of opinion for his own reasons.


It can also make him a hero to a lot of Russians. Like he's doing God's work ridding the poor Ukrainians of all those godless Nazis.


----------



## oldman

Murrmurr said:


> Fortunately, the US has interception missiles already calibrated for anything launched from Russia. I read that the US military is fitting them (or has fit them) with alternative power sources in case we lose our military satellites. And they're doing the same with our naval warships. In fact, they've already fitted and tested two of our largest warships....at least, that's what the article said.


Why would he even consider launching a nuke our way? That would be plain crazy, but then again…………


----------



## oldman

Timewise 60+ said:


> Weapons in GB and USA are already pointed straight at them...!


There are articles out there that dispell so much information that we can’t be sure who has what. Supposedly, Russia has hypersonic missiles that can travel at Mach 6 and reach the U.S. in about 30 minutes. Additionally, they fly very low and have stealth capabilities making it unknown to the U.S. when they are launched.

I suppose we are left to figure it out for ourselves, but thinking about something moving as fast as Mach 6 (about 4600 mph), I wouldn’t mind taking a ride, if it was able to seat a man. It’s not as fast as the moon launch, but I would still like to give it a go.


----------



## Murrmurr

oldman said:


> There are articles out there that dispell so much information that we can’t be sure who has what.


Good point. For all we know, unexplained (and explained) "UFOs" could be ours. Or not.

How'd you like to take a ride on one of those?


----------



## Becky1951

Timewise 60+ said:


> I always keep in mind, that since the first Bomb in Japan, the world leaders had to realize for the first time, that they could no longer be guaranteed survival in a war.  You cannot hide from a nuclear blast!  If the Bomb doesn't kill you the fallout will!  Putin knows, if he starts a nuclear war, he cannot be assured of his own survival.  And he, like most ego leaders, will not risk it!


"Putin knows, if he starts a nuclear war, he cannot be assured of his own survival.  And he, like most ego leaders, will not risk it!"

If his health is bad and he hasn't long to live what does he care how many he takes with him?


----------



## Murrmurr

Becky1951 said:


> "Putin knows, if he starts a nuclear war, he cannot be assured of his own survival.  And he, like most ego leaders, will not risk it!"
> 
> If his health is bad and he hasn't long to live what does he care how many he takes with him?


I think his legacy is important to him, though. I honestly doubt he wants to go down in history as the crazy dictator who started WWlll.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> I think his legacy is important to him, though. I honestly doubt he wants to go down in history as the crazy dictator who started WWlll.


History won't speak well of him  now anyway after what he's done to innocent people in Ukraine


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Hisotry won't speak well of him  now anyway after what he's done to innocent people in Ukraine


Yeah, I'm sure he's hoping to turn that around somehow. It's futile, but probably weighing on him pretty dearly.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"A top Ukrainian official says the country is asking the Biden administration to provide at least $2 billion per month in emergency economic aid, arguing that failure to deliver the money could exacerbate the humanitarian crisis caused by Russia’s invasion.

Appearing in Washington for meetings with senior U.S. officials, Ukrainian Finance Minister Sergii Marchenko said that the country is seeking a total of at least $5 billion per month in international assistance — with about $2 billion of it coming from the United States — to cover the country’s immediate needs for April, May and June. Beyond these billions in aid, an additional longer-term request is expected in the future to help Ukraine recover from what is estimated to be far greater damage from the war."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2022/04/25/ukraine-finance-minister-aid/

This Zelenskyy guy is very good. He has lots of demands and calls out countries when they haven't provided what he wants. He seems to have Biden eating out of the palm of his hand. We have already given him an economic aid package plus lots of weaponry. Now Biden has asked Congress for $33 billion more. Plus he want no less than $2 billion per month. Wow, he is milking everybody. 

Where is this money coming from? For decades both sides of Congress have talked and talked about rebuilding the crumbling bridges and roads throughout the country and we can't seem to find the money. 

Well, at the very least Ukraine and the military contractors in this country will be happy.


----------



## Murrmurr

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Where is this money coming from? For decades both sides of Congress have talked and talked about rebuilding the crumbling bridges and roads throughout the country and we can't seem to find the money.
> 
> Well, at the very least Ukraine and the military contractors in this country will be happy.


Congress approved a huge military budget during both the previous and current presidencies.


----------



## Furryanimal

new ukrainian nation news
...

Testifying in the U.S. Senate, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said that Ukraine should decide for itself whether to attack facilities in Russia, emphasizing that this is the official position of Washington.



In his testimony, Blinken stressed that Ukraine had to do everything it could to protect itself – including launching attacks on military targets in Russia.

"It’s up to Ukraine to decide whether to take actions that go beyond its borders,” Blinken said. “My own opinion is that it is vital for them to do everything necessary to protect themselves from Russian aggression. And the choice of tactics in this case is their own decision."


He said the U.S. position now is that Ukraine should be given what is needed to deal with Russian aggression and to push Russian forces out of the country.


Earlier, UK Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces James Heappey said it was “entirely legitimate" for Ukraine to carry out strikes within Russia to disrupt its supply lines.

Moreover, in a Talk TV interview, the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said he did not object to Ukraine using the weapons the UK had provided to it against targets in Russia, as “Ukrainians have the right to protect and defend themselves


----------



## Timewise 60+

An American Marine died in Ukraine yesterday.  They (our obedient media) reported he as a "private contractor"?

I think we should provide funding and weapons to Ukraine, nothing more!  Get Americans out of Ukraine, contractors or not, and see that none of our airplanes are flown by Americans, or our ships are exposed to attacks by Russia.


----------



## Murrmurr

Timewise 60+ said:


> An American Marine died in Ukraine yesterday.  They (our obedient media) reported he as a "private contractor"?
> 
> I think we should provide funding and weapons to Ukraine, nothing more!  Get Americans out of Ukraine, contractors or not, and see that none of our airplanes are flown by Americans, or our ships are exposed to attacks by Russia.


Some of the weapons the US and UK are providing are brand new and the Ukrainian military has to be trained how to use them. That's why we have some of our guys there. And technically, on paper, they _are_ under contract with the Ukrainian military. You can't just hand over a bunch of high-tech weapons without attaching a few specialists.


----------



## hollydolly

Timewise 60+ said:


> An American Marine died in Ukraine yesterday.  They (our obedient media) reported he as a "private contractor"?
> 
> I think we should provide funding and weapons to Ukraine, nothing more!  Get Americans out of Ukraine, contractors or not, and see that none of our airplanes are flown by Americans, or our ships are exposed to attacks by Russia.


we've  had reports of a few Brits been killed in Ukraine who were out there on peacekeeping missions


----------



## Timewise 60+

Murrmurr said:


> Some of the weapons the US and UK are providing are brand new and the Ukrainian military has to be trained how to use them. That's why we have some of our guys there. And technically, on paper, they _are_ under contract with the Ukrainian military. You can't just hand over a bunch of high-tech weapons without attaching a few specialists.


Train them in Poland!


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

Timewise 60+ said:


> An American Marine died in Ukraine yesterday.  They (our obedient media) reported he as a "private contractor"?
> 
> I think we should provide funding and weapons to Ukraine, nothing more!  Get Americans out of Ukraine, contractors or not, and see that none of our airplanes are flown by Americans, or our ships are exposed to attacks by Russia.


Based on what I read, the former Marine went there to fight. He was only 22 years old, so I guess he only did one stint with the Marines. He left behind a wife and a 7 month old baby who now have to fend for themselves. With such a young family he made a bad a choice.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ine-killed-fighting-alongside-Ukrainians.html

“They haven’t found his body,” Cabrera reportedly said. “They are trying, the men that were with him, but it was either grab his body or get killed, but we would love for him to come back to us.”

https://nypost.com/2022/04/28/forme...-killed-in-ukraine-after-signing-up-to-fight/


----------



## Murrmurr

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Based on what I read, the former Marine went there to fight. He was only 22 years old, so I guess he only did one stint with the Marines. He left behind a wife and a 7 month old baby who now have to fend for themselves. With such a young family he made a bad a choice.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ine-killed-fighting-alongside-Ukrainians.html
> 
> “They haven’t found his body,” Cabrera reportedly said. “They are trying, the men that were with him, but it was either grab his body or get killed, but we would love for him to come back to us.”
> 
> https://nypost.com/2022/04/28/forme...-killed-in-ukraine-after-signing-up-to-fight/


So he was literally a private security contractor and a _former_ US Marine.

I missed the word former. Went in one eye and out the other, I guess.


----------



## SeniorBen

Apparently, Cancel was fighting as a contractor in the Ukrainian Defense Ministry's International Legion, which was created by Ukraine for foreign fighters who wanted to join the fight against Russia. None of the reports I've seen name the mercenary contracting company, so we don't know if it was an American company or where they are located.


----------



## Jackie23

As many as 32,000 volunteers sign up to fight in Ukraine mostly from Europe and the US..
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/20/ukraine-foreign-fighters-americans/


----------



## Pink Biz

.......


----------



## Timewise 60+

Jackie23 said:


> As many as 32,000 volunteers sign up to fight in Ukraine mostly from Europe and the US..
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/20/ukraine-foreign-fighters-americans/


I never TRUST anything out of the Washington Post....mostly all propaganda...very little news


----------



## Pepper

What sources do you rely on @Timewise 60+?


----------



## Timewise 60+

Pepper said:


> What sources do you rely on @Timewise 60+?


Many sources from TV, Radio, and print!  That's the key, many sources to get a feel for what might be true and what might be BS... 
But not the Washington Post or the New York Post...both well recognized to be filled with liberal propaganda...


----------



## Pepper

Timewise 60+ said:


> Many sources from TV, Radio, and print!  That's the key, many sources to get a feel for what might be true and what might be BS...
> But not the *Washington Times or the New York Post...both well recognized to be filled with liberal propaganda...*


Is that your sense of humor?  If so, keep jokes for the comedians.  Besides, you did not answer my question.  Many sources is not an answer.  If you're going to be silly, just forget it.


----------



## Timewise 60+

Pepper...what is funny that you think what I said is funny!  I think it is very sad!  You are blinded by the media you read/ listen to...
I did answer your question, my sources are too many to list...


----------



## Don M.

We must keep in mind that the Highest Priority for ANY media is to maximize their Profits from Advertising.  That goes for everything from TV news to Facebook.  The Only way to get a good picture of the truth...especially with things like Covid or the Ukraine mess....is to check multiple sources, then try to separate the Baloney, from reality.


----------



## oldman

Murrmurr said:


> Good point. For all we know, unexplained (and explained) "UFOs" could be ours. Or not.
> 
> How'd you like to take a ride on one of those?


In a UFO? Depends on who us piloting the aircraft and the destination. I don’t know enough about them to give a good answer. I can tell you that flying at night above the clouds, we see things that are unidentifiable and don’t show up on radar. We don’t report them, unless the traffic controller will ask if we can see the object that they may have showing up on their radar as a ‘blip.’ I have never been close enough to any of these blips to say for sure just what it is, other than a blinking light. More than likely, depending on the altitude, it may be just a private plane without a transponder, which would report what type of the aircraft is to the controller. Small planes like a Cessna 172 normally don’t fly over 15,000 feet, but private jets will fly much higher, like maybe 40,000 ft. Private jets normally will have their transponder turned on for ID purposes.


----------



## Pepper

Timewise 60+ said:


> Pepper...what is funny that you think what I said is funny!  I think it is very sad!  *You are blinded by the media* you read/ listen to...
> I did answer your question, my sources are too many to list...


I'm not blinded by anything, buster, so watch your condescending comments.  Washington Times and NYPost are not liberal, unless you came up with a new definition of the word.

Your friend @JimBob1952  never condescends.  You should emulate your friend.  He's my friend too.


----------



## Timewise 60+

Pepper...my last comment, was consistent with the comment you made to me before that!   So take your own advice!


----------



## oldman

Timewise 60+ said:


> An American Marine died in Ukraine yesterday.  They (our obedient media) reported he as a "private contractor"?
> 
> I think we should provide funding and weapons to Ukraine, nothing more!  Get Americans out of Ukraine, contractors or not, and see that none of our airplanes are flown by Americans, or our ships are exposed to attacks by Russia.


I agree with not sending any of our service men and women to fight in Ukraine. The U.S. has no real interests in that country, so we have no business in being there.


----------



## JimBob1952

Timewise 60+ said:


> Pepper...my last comment, was consistent with the comment you made to me before that!   So take your own advice!


Intervening on behalf of two people I like on here.  SF is all about agreeing to disagree in ways that are civil. One thing I've learned is that what we have in common far outweighs the areas in which we differ. 

Sorry to sound like Pollyanna but Pepper absolutely rocks and I have a feeling that Timewise 60+ does too.  Timewise, you're sure you weren't thinking of NY Times and Washington Post rather than Washington Times and NY Post?


----------



## Timewise 60+

JimBob...good catch! Washington Post...! As I said in my original post on liberal papers....then I had a brain fart....happens more than I like!


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

Murrmurr said:


> So he was literally a private security contractor and a _*former*_* US Marine.*
> 
> I missed the word former. Went in one eye and out the other, I guess.


He also had a _bad conduct discharge_ from the US Marines.


----------



## hollydolly

_Vladimir Putin may be forced to give up control of the war in Ukraine for days as he is set for cancer surgery, a 'Kremlin insider' has claimed.

The Russian dictator will reportedly nominate hardline Security Council head and ex-FSB chief Nikolai Patrushev to take control of the invasion while he is under the knife.

Shadowy Patrushev, 70, is seen as a key architect of the war strategy so far - and the man who convinced Putin that Kyiv is awash with neo-Nazis.

The extraordinary claims appeared on popular Telegram channel General SVR, which says its source is a well-placed figure in the Kremlin. 



General SVR reported that Putin has abdominal cancer and Parkinson's 18 months ago.

He has reportedly delayed surgery, which will now not take place before the Victory Day commemoration of Russia's World War Two victory in Red Square on May 9.  

The news comes amid speculation Putin will launch an all-out war across Ukraine and order mass mobilisation of military-age men, a considerable political risk.

The surgery had been scheduled for the second half of April but was delayed, SVR claimed.

'Putin was recommended to undergo surgery, the date of which is being discussed and agreed,' the outlet stated.

'There seems to be no particular urgency, but it cannot be delayed either.'
He also suffers from 'Parkinson's disease and schizoaffective disorder', which carries symptoms of schizophrenia including hallucinations and mania.

The Kremlin has always strongly denied Putin has medical problems and portrays he is in robust health, even as he has been mysteriously absent in recent years.

In a video detailing the General SVR claims, the outlet's source - supposedly an anonymous former high-ranking Kremlin military figure - said: 'Putin has discussed that he will be undergoing medical procedures._


----------



## Geezer Garage

A little slip of the scalpel would be ok with me.


----------



## hollydolly

Geezer Garage said:


> A little slip of the scalpel would be ok with me.


yes can't hear many complaining about that idea..


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> _Vladimir Putin may be forced to give up control of the war in Ukraine for days as he is set for cancer surgery, a 'Kremlin insider' has claimed.
> 
> The Russian dictator will reportedly nominate hardline Security Council head and ex-FSB chief Nikolai Patrushev to take control of the invasion while he is under the knife.
> 
> Shadowy Patrushev, 70, is seen as a key architect of the war strategy so far - and the man who convinced Putin that Kyiv is awash with neo-Nazis.
> 
> The extraordinary claims appeared on popular Telegram channel General SVR, which says its source is a well-placed figure in the Kremlin.
> 
> 
> 
> General SVR reported that Putin has abdominal cancer and Parkinson's 18 months ago.
> 
> He has reportedly delayed surgery, which will now not take place before the Victory Day commemoration of Russia's World War Two victory in Red Square on May 9.
> 
> The news comes amid speculation Putin will launch an all-out war across Ukraine and order mass mobilisation of military-age men, a considerable political risk.
> 
> The surgery had been scheduled for the second half of April but was delayed, SVR claimed.
> 
> 'Putin was recommended to undergo surgery, the date of which is being discussed and agreed,' the outlet stated.
> 
> 'There seems to be no particular urgency, but it cannot be delayed either.'
> He also suffers from 'Parkinson's disease and schizoaffective disorder', which carries symptoms of schizophrenia including hallucinations and mania.
> 
> The Kremlin has always strongly denied Putin has medical problems and portrays he is in robust health, even as he has been mysteriously absent in recent years.
> 
> In a video detailing the General SVR claims, the outlet's source - supposedly an anonymous former high-ranking Kremlin military figure - said: 'Putin has discussed that he will be undergoing medical procedures._


I heard that he has Parkinson's while watching a news channel on YouTube a couple days ago. 

The same journalist reported that 2 of Putin's oligarchs and their entire families died recently, something like a week apart. It was reported in Russia as murder-suicide. He also said 9 other oligarchs have died by "suicide" just since the invasion of Ukraine. 

I'm not buying it. I mean, they're probably dead, but not by suicide.


----------



## Timewise 60+

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> He also had a _bad conduct discharge_ from the US Marines.


And your point is...?


----------



## WhatInThe

It is war but gangster Vlad doesn't see it that way. I bring that up because Ukraine has made some strike in Russia itself. If these attacks strategically related or not persist this could be a turning point to escalation or show the Russian people the realities of war. Then again it could be a battle cry especially since there is limited or controlled information there.


----------



## Timewise 60+

WhatInThe...you make a real good point!  Most all the *information* Americans are getting regarding the war in Ukraine is being filtered and should be regarded as such.  Primarily, propaganda by our government to shape how the American people feel about the war and Russia.  Keep an open mind...


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic criticized Wimbledon's decision to exclude Russian and Belarusian players from this year's tournament following Russia's invasion of Ukraine."

https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_...k-djokovic-slam-wimbledon-ban-russian-players

Serbia's Novak Djokovic has called the ban "crazy", while Russian world number eight Andrey Rublev said the ban was "complete discrimination" and "illogical".

"It's not their fault what's happening in this moment with the war." [Nadal stated]

"The governing bodies of men's (ATP) and women's professional tennis (WTA) are against the ban and are deciding how to react. One possibility is that they could remove ranking points from the Grand Slam tournament which runs from 27 June to 10 July."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/61293193

The UK and US did a lot of talking about China's violation of human rights, but still allowed their athletes to participate in the Beijing Winter Olympics. Darn hypocrites!


----------



## Tish

Geezer Garage said:


> A little slip of the scalpel would be ok with me.


It's just fine with me as well.
That General has me slightly worried though.


----------



## Pepper

My Open Mind tells me Ukraine is a fledgling democracy with superior leadership and a brave populace;  that Russia is an autocracy that torments and kills it's own citizens who oppose Putin.  My open mind sees Putin as being in times long past, or should have.  That in itself is a major crime for a leader.  That truth is bottom line for me and always has been. 

Re:  China.  I have an opinion but it's offtrack.


----------



## SeniorBen

It's funny how little outrage there was when Putin was murdering 1,000s of Syrians in Aleppo and other places. It probably makes a difference that Ukrainians look like a lot of us here in the U.S. and in Europe.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

SeniorBen said:


> It's funny how little outrage there was when Putin was murdering 1,000s of Syrians in Aleppo and other places. It probably makes a difference that *Ukrainians look like a lot of us* here in the U.S. and in Europe.


Bingo! It's the way the world works. I saw clips of Ukrainian refugees in Mexico's northern border cities. Funny how they knew that Mexico is the entry point for the US. There was no outrage by US media. That's because a refugee is not a refugee.


----------



## mellowyellow

April 29 (Reuters) - Russia made what appeared to be a late u-turn to avoid a default on Friday, as it made a number of already-overdue international debt payments in dollars despite previously vowing they would only be paid in roubles.


----------



## dseag2

SeniorBen said:


> It's funny how little outrage there was when Putin was murdering 1,000s of Syrians in Aleppo and other places. It probably makes a difference that Ukrainians look like a lot of us here in the U.S. and in Europe.


I posted this some time ago in the forum.  So true.  Go to 8:17 since it aired back in March.


----------



## mellowyellow

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz invited Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to a Group of Seven leaders’ summit next month as a special guest, part of an effort to forge a broader international alliance against Russia.


----------



## Murrmurr

I sure hope India gets on board. In my opinion, Modi has made some really bad decisions lately.


----------



## mellowyellow

The Hungarian government’s overt admiration for Russian President Vladimir Putin, even after Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, is unique in the European Union. In 2015, Orbán stated “I don’t want to live in a Europe that conducts a new Cold War against Russia and which makes the Europeans enemies of the Russians.”........................
https://warontherocks.com/2022/04/is-hungary-ukraines-biggest-problem-in-the-european-union/


----------



## dseag2

Murrmurr said:


> I sure hop India gets on board. In my opinion, Modi has made some really bad decisions lately.


He sure has.  He is basically sending a thumbs up to Russia for the attack on Ukraine by buying MORE oil from them, even though they are still reliant on a very small amount.  Most of it is purchased from Iraq. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-60783874


----------



## Murrmurr

SeniorBen said:


> It's funny how little outrage there was when Putin was murdering 1,000s of Syrians in Aleppo and other places. *It probably makes a difference that Ukrainians look like a lot of us here in the U.S. and in Europe.*


The difference is risk and benefit, nothing to do with race. IMO, for the past 80 years, the actions of the US administration and military have been strictly political, not humanitarian...often the cause of anger and/or embarrassment for many US citizens. And I've seen some politically stupid action and inaction that didn't benefit anyone, the US least of all.


----------



## mellowyellow




----------



## hollydolly

The corpses of Russian soldiers lie arranged in a 'Z' pattern inside a village re-captured by Ukraine on Monday, on the outskirts of Kharkiv


NO NO NO..!! Ukraine you must not sink to the levels of the Russians..


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ssian-troops-Z-pattern-Kyivs-men-advance.html


----------



## Timewise 60+

As always, I do not trust anything I read.  Both sides are politicizing and trying to sway opinions with lies and falsehoods.  Keep an open mind and you will be less likely to be surprised by the outcome.  All I care about is keep our soldiers out of this war, we do not need another Viet Nam, Korea, or such.  Nothing is ever gained in those wars, only death and bloodshed is the outcome.


----------



## Furryanimal




----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> The corpses of Russian soldiers lie arranged in a 'Z' pattern inside a village re-captured by Ukraine on Monday, on the outskirts of Kharkiv
> 
> 
> NO NO NO..!! Ukraine you must not sink to the levels of the Russians..
> 
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ssian-troops-Z-pattern-Kyivs-men-advance.html


But Ukrainians _are_ Russians. 

They've been living in democratic autonomy, and they want to keep it that way, but I'm sure it doesn't surprise Russia's Russians when Ukrainians act like Russians.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> But Ukrainians _are_ Russians.
> 
> They've been living in democratic autonomy, and they want to keep it that way, but I'm sure it doesn't surprise Russia's Russians when Ukrainians act like Russians.


I meant do not sink to the levels of the Russian army ... or Putins mentality....I think people will know what I meant ..


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> I meant do not sink to the levels of the Russian army ... or Putins mentality....*I think people will know what I meant* ..


Except me.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> Except me.


Exactly...


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> The corpses of Russian soldiers lie arranged in a 'Z' pattern inside a village re-captured by Ukraine on Monday, on the outskirts of Kharkiv
> 
> 
> NO NO NO..!! Ukraine you must not sink to the levels of the Russians..
> 
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ssian-troops-Z-pattern-Kyivs-men-advance.html


How terribly sad, *Sigh* war changes people!


----------



## hollydolly

_A giant super-yacht said to be owned by Vladimir Putin was last night set to be seized by Italian authorities after they recommended it be impounded as part of sanctions against Russia.

Authorities in Italy said the $700 million The Scheherazade, which is more than 450ft long, and boasts spas, swimming pools and two helicopter pads was connected to a 'significant person' but did not name them.

The yacht has been the subject of an investigation by the Italian financial police since the end of March and has been in dock at Marina di Carrara near Pisa since September undergoing a refit.

The late night announcement came after fears grew that The Scheherazde was about to slip away and head to international waters and avoid any possible sanctions.





A statement from the Italian Financial Police said: 'After verification by the fiscal authorities it has come to light that there is a significant economic connection between the owner of The Scheherazade and senior elements of the Russian government.

'On the basis of these elements it has been recommended that the yacht be placed on the current European Union sanctions list and the Minister of Finance in Rome has agreed.'

Tonight Mariateresa Levi of the Italian Financial Police told MailOnline:' I am not in a position to tell you who the actual owner is but we are satisfied that the yacht should be seized and in the next few hours officers will board and impound her.'

The Scheherazade's captain, Briton Guy Bennett-Pearce, has denied Putin is the owner but has refused to reveal who is.

There have been claims that the vessel may belong to Eduard Khudainatov, a Russian oil tycoon who has not been hit by sanctions. He is the former chairman and chief executive of Rosneft, the state-owned Russian company that deals in oil and gas. Mr Khudainatov is close to Igor Sechin, a Putin ally and chairman of Rosneft.

But activists and investigative journalists linked to Alexei Navalny, the imprisoned Russian opposition leader, are convinced that it belongs to Putin.

They obtained information which suggested that many of the yacht's crew were members of the Federal Protection Service, the agency that provides security for Putin and his acolytes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ure-yacht-linked-media-Russian-president.html_


----------



## OneEyedDiva

mellowyellow said:


> Can't believe the Ukrainians incredible resolve and thinking of those poor souls under the steelworks, the food and water must gone by now.
> 
> View attachment 219035


I've been thinking of that too! How awful. They can't bathe when they want to (or even need to), going to the bathroom must be terrible. Someone like me would have a rough time having to wait to use the bathroom whenever I needed to (water pills)...but then again, those who takes medications probably haven't had them for most of the time they've been down there. Food must be scarce and perhaps some or all have had to go without food or enough to eat. And what about those who have babies who need diapers and formula and those with small children? It's a terrible situation and I feel so sorry for them. I make Dua (a special prayer) for them daily.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> *Vladimir Putin will launch an all-out nuclear war on the West rather than accept defeat in Ukraine, Russia's chief propagandists have declared, in just the latest chilling threat coming from Moscow.
> 
> Margarita Simonyan, editor of state broadcaster RT and one of the Kremlin's highest-profile mouthpieces, declared on TV last night that the idea of Putin pressing the red button is 'more probable' than the idea that he will allow Russia to lose the war.*
> 
> 'Either we lose in Ukraine,' she said, 'or the Third World War starts. I think World War Three is more realistic, knowing us, knowing our leader.
> 
> *'The most incredible outcome, that all this will end with a nuclear strike, seems more probable to me than the other course of events.
> 
> 'This is to my horror on one hand,' she told a panel of experts shifting nervously in their seats, 'but on the other hand, it is what it is. We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... We're all going to die someday.'*
> 
> Simonyan's calm imagining of nuclear holocaust is just the latest threat issued from the top levels of the Russian state, after fellow propagandist Vladimir Solovyov, foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, and Putin himself issued threats in the last 48 hours.
> 
> The US and UK have dismissed such rhetoric as bluster but the increasing frequency of the threats coupled with the failures of Russia's military will raise fears that a Cold War-style standoff is now a realistic possibility before the war in Ukraine ends.
> 
> It comes after Russia successfully test-launched its latest nuclear missile - Sarmat 2 - last week, with Putin boasting it can strike targets anywhere on earth and cannot be stopped by any current missile defences.
> 
> Click here for the video... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html


Regarding this reply and the one about Putin if he has a terminal illness would he care? Well we have to suppose he's not only evil but out of his freaking mind. All those things put together means it's likely he doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything except glorifying his ego with what he may imagine would be a victory. Reading Margarita Simonyan's take on things is chilling! God help us all. 

@Pepper You say he "has to be taken out".  I've been thinking that for weeks!


----------



## hollydolly

OneEyedDiva said:


> Regarding this reply and the one about Putin if he has a terminal illness would he care? Well we have to suppose he's not only evil but out of his freaking mind. All those things put together means it's likely he doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything except glorifying his ego with what he may imagine would be a victory. Reading Margarita Simonyan's take on things is chilling! God help us all.
> 
> @Pepper You say he "has to be taken out".  I've been thinking that for weeks!


_He_ might not care but it takes more than one person to instigate the  use a nuclear weapon...


----------



## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> _He_ might not care but it takes more than one person to instigate the  use a nuclear weapon...


I remember when I was in a college class (I went as an adult), there was a vet who said that if people knew how close the U.S. had come one time to pushing the button (on a nuke), it would scare all of us. Good thing it takes more than one person!


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> _A giant super-yacht said to be owned by Vladimir Putin was last night set to be seized by Italian authorities after they recommended it be impounded as part of sanctions against Russia.
> 
> Authorities in Italy said the $700 million The Scheherazade, which is more than 450ft long, and boasts spas, swimming pools and two helicopter pads was connected to a 'significant person' but did not name them._


Wow,$700 million, is mind-boggling!


----------



## hollydolly

Tish said:


> Wow,$700 million, is mind-boggling!


yes , especially so when you see how the average working people live in Russia.. their homes are mainly government owned   and barely maintained..


----------



## Tish




----------



## hollydolly

_Russian kindergarten children dressed up in a variety of pro-Russian military outfits ahead of the country's Victory Day parade, a video on social media has shown.

Leading the group of pupils was one young boy dressed as a Russian tank with a white 'Z' symbol emblazoned on the front - a common feature of Moscow's military vehicles currently involved in fighting in Ukraine.

The boy was shown in military uniform and a leather helmet while a Russian flag flew on the camouflaged cardboard tank fashioned around him.

Other children were shown dressed as fighter jets, soldiers and army medics. At least two more were also dressed as tanks, decorated with red Soviet stars.

Their teachers also wore similar Soviet-style military costumes as the class paraded through the courtroom of the kindergarten.









https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-dress-tanks-adorned-Z-Victory-Day-event.html_


----------



## hollydolly

_At least 60 people are believed to have been killed in a Russian bombing of a Ukrainian school on Saturday evening, in which two people have been confirmed dead with dozens more still missing.

Around 90 people were using the Belogorovskaya school basement in the village of Bilohorivka as a bomb shelter when the site suffered a direct hit, Luhansk regional governor Serhiy Haidai confirmed via the Telegram messaging app on Sunday morning. Mr Haidai said emergency crews had found two bodies and rescued 30.

'Most likely, all 60 people who remain under the rubble are now dead,' governor Serhiy Haidai wrote. Russian shelling also killed two boys, aged 11 and 14, in the nearby town of Pryvillia, he said.

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss tweeted today: 'Horrified by Russia's latest attack on a school in Luhansk, resulting in the deaths of innocent people sheltering from Russian bombardment.' She said the deliberate targeting of civilians and infrastructure 'amounts to war crimes' and 'we will ensure Putin's regime is held accountable'.

Footage and images of the school show the extent of the destruction, with large sections of the building reduced to rubble and a team of firefighters drafted in to combat the resulting blaze.

Rescuers managed to pull thirty people out of the ruins last night, Haidai said, but up to sixty more remain trapped in the basement and are thought to have been killed.

'The fire was extinguished after nearly four hours, then the rubble was cleared, and unfortunately the bodies of two people were found,' Haidai wrote. Rescuers continued to work from the early hours, attempting to clear the remaining rubble and free any remaining survivors. 

Separately, Haidai said that according to preliminary information, shelling in the village of Shypilovo destroyed a house and 11 people remained under the building's debris.

There was no immediate response from Russian authorities. 

The latest devastation in Luhansk comes just one week after the Lysychansk Multidisciplinary Gymnasium, a prestigious Ukrainian school built in the 19th century, was completely destroyed in another attack. _


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> _At least 60 people are believed to have been killed in a Russian bombing of a Ukrainian school on Saturday evening, in which two people have been confirmed dead with dozens more still missing.
> 
> Around 90 people were using the Belogorovskaya school basement in the village of Bilohorivka as a bomb shelter when the site suffered a direct hit, Luhansk regional governor Serhiy Haidai confirmed via the Telegram messaging app on Sunday morning. Mr Haidai said emergency crews had found two bodies and rescued 30.
> 
> 'Most likely, all 60 people who remain under the rubble are now dead,' governor Serhiy Haidai wrote. Russian shelling also killed two boys, aged 11 and 14, in the nearby town of Pryvillia, he said._


That is absolutely horrible...
I would like to think that the Russian army had intelligence on that hiding spot and didn't just target it.
But my heart and mind know better.
Thank you for all your updates.


----------



## Murrmurr

Zelenski posted an inspirational video speech today, Ukrainian Day of Remembrance


----------



## mellowyellow

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1523334839851577345


----------



## dseag2

Murrmurr said:


> Zelenski posted an inspirational video speech today, Ukrainian Day of Remembrance


What an amazing, inspiring and heartbreaking video.


----------



## Don M.

OneEyedDiva said:


> I remember when I was in a college class (I went as an adult), there was a vet who said that if people knew how close the U.S. had come one time to pushing the button (on a nuke), it would scare all of us. Good thing it takes more than one person!


That's Right....October, 1962...the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I was stationed at an USAF base in Germany during that time.  As the Russian ships approached Cuba, we went on high alert.  Every available F-105 was loaded with fuel, and a Nuke.  The pilots were at the aircraft, ready to launch.  We had written what might have been our last letters home....and hoped there would be someone there to read them.  Had those ships Not turned around, none of us might still be here.  

If Putin were to go completely Nuts, and widen his attacks to include NATO, this Mess could quickly get out of control, and Putin would likely use his "options"....in which case, the world would be devastated.  There are "safeguards" in our nation that would keep any One person from triggering a Nuke, bit who knows if such measures are in place in Russia.


----------



## Warrigal

I love Zelenskyy and I don't use that word lightly. 

To me he is Everyman and his courage and fortitude are an inspiration, not only to his own people, but to the whole world. I fear for his safety and do not expect him to survive this war but his leadership will long be remembered in the annals of Ukrainian history.


----------



## hollydolly

*So now Putin is informing his people and his troops that the west was about to Attack Russia, before he gave the order to go to war with Ukraine.. *


_Vladimir Putin gave a chest-beating speech to his troops during Moscow's Victory Day parade today - telling soldiers that they are now fighting for the security of the nation against what he called Western plans to invade.

Seeking to re-frame his war in Ukraine as a war between Russia and the West, he declared NATO to be the aggressor and said he is trying to de-escalate the situation with a 'special military operation' against a 'neo-Nazi' regime in Kyiv, declaring that launching the attack was 'the only right decision' he could have taken.

He also sought to twist the truth of what is happening on the ground in Ukraine, hailing a day of 'great victory' despite Russia's battlefield defeats and telling his men they are fighting a just war despite plentiful evidence of war crimes in occupied territories.

'Everything indicated that a clash with the neo-Nazis, the Banderites [Ukrainian Nazi sympathisers], backed by the United States and their junior partners, was inevitable,' he said.

'We saw military infrastructure being ramped up, hundreds of military advisers working and regular deliveries of modern weapons from NATO. (The level of) danger was increasing every day. Russia preventively rebuffed the aggressor. It was necessary, timely and ... right. The decision of a sovereign, strong, independent country.'

Russian troops in Donbas are fighting on 'their land', he claimed, peddling his warped world view in which Ukraine is not a real country and Ukrainians are simply Russians waiting to be reintegrated into the motherland.

But he stopped short of what many had feared: An official declaration of war on Kyiv which would have allowed him to mobilise Russia's military reserves and conscript civilians in order to escalate fighting across the border.

The parade was much slimmed-down from previous years, with an aerial display that was due to feature his 'Doomsday jet' - allowing him to continue ruling Russia in the event of a nuclear blast - was axed at the last minute due to 'bad weather', though rumours and light cloud in Moscow suggested it could be due to fears of sabotage.

The vehicle parade was also downsized from previous years, featuring almost a third fewer than in 2020 because Russia has committed - and lost - so many of its ground forces in Ukraine.
_
Click here for the video of Putin's speech ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10796519/Ukraine-war-Victory-Day-parades-place-Russia.html


----------



## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> _He_ might not care but it takes more than one person to instigate the  use a nuclear weapon...


But what if that other person is as nutty and evil as he is?!


----------



## hollydolly

OneEyedDiva said:


> But what if that other person is as nutty and evil as he is?!


that's also something that might be the truth...


----------



## SeniorBen

The Russian ambassador was doused with red paint at one of the events.


----------



## Murrmurr

SeniorBen said:


> The Russian ambassador was doused with red paint at one of the events.


Yeah, Russia's ambassador to Poland. He went to the Soviet soldiers cemetery to lay flowers, and a group of activists against the war in Ukraine were waiting for him.


----------



## Murrmurr

Don M. said:


> That's Right....October, 1962...the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I was stationed at an USAF base in Germany during that time.  As the Russian ships approached Cuba, we went on high alert.  Every available F-105 was loaded with fuel, and a Nuke.  The pilots were at the aircraft, ready to launch.  We had written what might have been our last letters home....and hoped there would be someone there to read them.  Had those ships Not turned around, none of us might still be here.
> 
> If Putin were to go completely Nuts, and widen his attacks to include NATO, this Mess could quickly get out of control, and Putin would likely use his "options"....in which case, the world would be devastated.  *There are "safeguards" in our nation that would keep any One person from triggering a Nuke, bit who knows if such measures are in place in Russia.*


There's supposed to be. It was part of the nuke agreement. I forget what it's called. I think Gorbachev signed it.


----------



## hollydolly

_Putins' own propagandists have begun openly criticising the state of Russia's military as even the Kremlin's most-hardened of supporters struggle to ignore the scope of its failings in Ukraine. 

Vladimir Solovyov, one of Putin's most-prominent puppets, moaned last week about the 'shameful' length of time it takes for weapons to reach the front while guests on Russian state TV talk shows complained that men are being sent into battle 'with weapons of yesteryear' and the Russian economy cannot sustain the war.

Mikhail Khodaryonok, a retired Russia colonel, told viewers that even a much-feared general mobilisation of Russian forces would do little to turn the war in Moscow's favour because it lacks equipment and men to build new units. 'We don't have the reserves,' he told viewers.

Meanwhile Solovyov himself fumed that Russian troops are unable to get drones because so few are being produced, and even those that are made take too long to get into battle. 'Just try to bring something to the Donbas,' he said, 'it's easier to bring it in via Ukrainian customs in Lviv. They let any weapons through.

'But to bring something to our guys is near-impossible. We complained about it hundreds of times!'

Meanwhile Aleksandr Sladkov, a so-called 'war correspondent' who pumps out pro-Kremlin content on social media, spoke out against Russia's tactics - saying commanders have been 'shamefully indecisive' and their attacks 'can't push out Ukrainian forces' because they are fighting 'one-to-one' with no numerical advantage.

The shift in tone is dramatic for state media networks that are usually keen to trumpet the might of Russia's armed forces, praise Putin's leadership as strong and decisive, slam Ukraine as weak and dismiss any defeats they suffer as being part of a masterplan - the true goal of which will only become apparent later.

Click here for the video.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-media-admits-shameful-military-failings.html_


----------



## hollydolly

_*A Ukrainian village councillor has been arrested by elite special forces after she was accused of being a Russian collaborator.

Nadiya Antonova,* from Kutuzivka near Kharkiv, was swarmed by Alpha Force troops and secret intelligence agents who led her away in handcuffs - and she now faces life behind bars.

The secretary of the local council is accused of betraying her country's defenders by giving away the identities of police, soldiers and counter-terrorism specialists to Putin's invaders.

She passed on the identities of local hunters and park rangers whose countryside knowledge made them ideal fighters, prosecutors said. 

It is claimed Antonova also forced villagers to wear white armbands to signal support for the Russians who wear white and orange armbands as opposed to Ukraine's yellow, green and blue. 







Antonova handed over anti-terrorist operatives, environmental protection veterans, hunters and law enforcement officers, and forced locals to wear white armbands.'

Another official, Eduard Konovalov, was also detained after a raid in Staryi Saltiv in the east of Ukraine. 

The council chairman is accused of providing housing to Russian troops and encouraging Ukrainians not to resist.

For 'treason under martial law', both he and Antonov face up to life in prison. 

Olexandr Filchakov, Kharkiv's chief prosecutor, said the region has one of the biggest treason caseloads in the country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...orator-led-away-Ukrainian-special-forces.html_


----------



## JonSR77

Ukraine Relief - How to Avoid Fundraising Scams...

from CNBC

Russia-Ukraine crisis: How to avoid fundraising scams

"Look up the relief effort through a site such as BBB Wise Giving Alliance, Charity Navigator or CharityWatch and read online reviews. Then, enter the URL of the charity yourself to independently confirm you are coordinating with the right organization."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/01/russia-ukraine-crisis-how-to-avoid-fundraising-scams.html


----------



## Murrmurr

Intercepted phone calls between Russian soldiers and family and fellow soldiers, and intercepted calls between Russians and Ukrainians -- there are a few YouTubers who are posting these phone calls on ...well, YouTube. And some news channels on YouTube also posted some of the conversations.

They're _extremely_ interesting, grounds for war-crime charges, some are horrific, some are really sad.

Here's a few.... There are a few other YouTubers posting them, too.


----------



## hollydolly

Putin warns Finland has 'made a mistake' after country's president tells him they WILL join NATO – despite Russian threat it could wipe them and Britain out in SECONDS with nukes - as Lavrov says 'total hybrid war' has been declared​_Vladimir Putin told the President of Finland he is making a 'mistake' by joining NATO as it faces 'no security threats' in a phone call this morning.

And in a speech on the 80th day of the war in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said: 'The collective West has announced a total hybrid war on us. 

'It is difficult to forecast how long this will all last, but it is clear that the consequences will be felt by everybody without exception.'

Finland and Sweden's efforts to join NATO met a hurdle when Turkish President Erdogan said he could not support their entry bids because of Kurdish terrorist organisations operating in the Nordic countries.

All 30 NATO member states must sign off on each new entrant.

Erdogan's top foreign policy advisor clarified today that the country is 'not closing the door' on the countries' bids.

Ibrahim Kalin: 'We are not closing the door. But we are basically raising this issue as a matter of national security for Turkey.'

The Kremlin attack dog added: 'We've done everything to avoid a direct clash but the challenge has been thrown to us and we accept it. Cancel culture against everything Russia is being used against us.'

'We are doing everything we can to defend the interests of our citizens abroad. Ukraine is an instrument, a tool, to contain Russia's peaceful development,' he said.

As US President Joe Biden held a joint call with Finland's leaders on Friday to support their NATO application, *Russian officials responded with furious bluster, with one threatening to reduce the US to 'nuclear ashes' if America 'threatens' the Russian state. *
_

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...sile-just-200-seconds-Finland-10-seconds.html


----------



## Nathan

hollydolly said:


> Russian officials responded with furious bluster, with one threatening to reduce the US to 'nuclear ashes' if America 'threatens' the Russian state.


That's it!  I'm done with Russian Vodka, but I think I'll start happy hour a little earlier today...


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Putin warns Finland has 'made a mistake' after country's president tells him they WILL join NATO – despite Russian threat it could wipe them and Britain out in SECONDS with nukes - as Lavrov says 'total hybrid war' has been declared​_Vladimir Putin told the President of Finland he is making a 'mistake' by joining NATO as it faces 'no security threats' in a phone call this morning.
> 
> And in a speech on the 80th day of the war in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said: 'The collective West has announced a total hybrid war on us.
> 
> 'It is difficult to forecast how long this will all last, but it is clear that the consequences will be felt by everybody without exception.'
> 
> Finland and Sweden's efforts to join NATO met a hurdle when Turkish President Erdogan said he could not support their entry bids because of Kurdish terrorist organisations operating in the Nordic countries.
> 
> All 30 NATO member states must sign off on each new entrant.
> 
> Erdogan's top foreign policy advisor clarified today that the country is 'not closing the door' on the countries' bids.
> 
> Ibrahim Kalin: 'We are not closing the door. But we are basically raising this issue as a matter of national security for Turkey.'
> 
> The Kremlin attack dog added: 'We've done everything to avoid a direct clash but the challenge has been thrown to us and we accept it. Cancel culture against everything Russia is being used against us.'
> 
> 'We are doing everything we can to defend the interests of our citizens abroad. Ukraine is an instrument, a tool, to contain Russia's peaceful development,' he said.
> 
> As US President Joe Biden held a joint call with Finland's leaders on Friday to support their NATO application, *Russian officials responded with furious bluster, with one threatening to reduce the US to 'nuclear ashes' if America 'threatens' the Russian state. *_
> 
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...sile-just-200-seconds-Finland-10-seconds.html


The Turkish President needs to consider the benefits of getting NATO involved in crushing the Kurdish terrorists he's so worried about.


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Putin warns Finland has 'made a mistake' after country's president tells him they WILL join NATO – despite Russian threat it could wipe them and Britain out in SECONDS with nukes - as Lavrov says 'total hybrid war' has been declared​
> 
> _As US President Joe Biden held a joint call with Finland's leaders on Friday to support their NATO application, *Russian officials responded with furious bluster, with one threatening to reduce the US to 'nuclear ashes' if America 'threatens' the Russian state. *_
> 
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...sile-just-200-seconds-Finland-10-seconds.html


That is pure Putin BS. He wants to be remembered as a Soviet hero, not a Soviet annihilator.


----------



## hollydolly

Nathan said:


> That's it!  I'm done with Russian Vodka, but I think I'll start happy hour a little earlier today...


I don't drink, but I think even I need a drink after this news... and the Buffalo shooting news as well... 







*Putin ally Aleksey Zhuravlyov boasted that Britain could be attacked in just over three minutes*
_Asked if Russia would now rebase nuclear weapons onto its border with Finland, he said: 'What for? We don't need to.

'We can hit with a Sarmat from Siberia, and even reach the UK.

'And if we strike from Kaliningrad... the hypersonic's reaching time is 200 seconds - so go ahead, guys.

'On the Finnish border we will have not strategic weapons, but Kinzhal-class, one that will reach Finland in 20 seconds, or even 10 seconds.'

He said Russia would massively strengthen its military forces on its western flank.
_

He claimed Finland is being provoked into joining NATO by the US and Britain.

'The Finns have nothing to share with us. They receive more than 90 per cent gas, timber and much more from us.

'Who needs fighting first of all? The Finns? They are not afraid that Russia is attacking them. 'Of course, sooner or later the Americans will force them to do so.

'Just as they forced Ukraine to do it, they are trying to force Poland and Romania. And, as practice shows, they succeed.

'It is impossible to say that Finland will join NATO and behave towards us as before - this will not happen. The Americans will incite them to provocations.





The Satan-2 Sarmat missile is a 208-ton, 15,880mph intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM)





The news came as Ukrainian rockets fired from trucks on farmland made several crucial hits against Russian forces


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> I don't drink, but I think even I need a drink after this news... and the Buffalo shooting news as well...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Putin ally Aleksey Zhuravlyov boasted that Britain could be attacked in just over three minutes*
> _Asked if Russia would now rebase nuclear weapons onto its border with Finland, he said: 'What for? We don't need to.
> 
> 'We can hit with a Sarmat from Siberia, and even reach the UK.
> 
> 'And if we strike from Kaliningrad... the hypersonic's reaching time is 200 seconds - so go ahead, guys.
> 
> 'On the Finnish border we will have not strategic weapons, but Kinzhal-class, one that will reach Finland in 20 seconds, or even 10 seconds.'
> 
> He said Russia would massively strengthen its military forces on its western flank._
> 
> 
> He claimed Finland is being provoked into joining NATO by the US and Britain.
> 
> 'The Finns have nothing to share with us. They receive more than 90 per cent gas, timber and much more from us.
> 
> 'Who needs fighting first of all? The Finns? They are not afraid that Russia is attacking them. 'Of course, sooner or later the Americans will force them to do so.
> 
> 'Just as they forced Ukraine to do it, they are trying to force Poland and Romania. And, as practice shows, they succeed.
> 
> 'It is impossible to say that Finland will join NATO and behave towards us as before - this will not happen. The Americans will incite them to provocations.
> 
> 
> The Satan-2 Sarmat missile is a 208-ton, 15,880mph intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM)
> 
> 
> The news came as Ukrainian rockets fired from trucks on farmland made several crucial hits against Russian forces


They lie so much. Sure, they _can, _but they won't. This is them having tantrums to get their way, and it's like they're saying "If I don't get what I want I'll kill myself!"


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> They lie so much. Sure, they _can, _but they won't. This is them having tantrums to get their way, and it's like they're saying "If I don't get what I want I'll kill myself!"


maybe..but remember we didn't think they'd invade Ukraine


----------



## Pepper

Nathan said:


> That's it!  I'm done with Russian Vodka, but I think I'll start happy hour a little earlier today...


Absolut vodka, from Sweden, is way better IMO.  Not that I can drink anymore, dammit!


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> maybe..but remember we didn't think they'd invade Ukraine


The US knew they would. We tried to warn everyone.

There are some people who know Putin intimately who are posting videos on YouTube. You have to do a little research to figure out which ones actually know him intimately, or who communicates with someone who does, but it doesn't take very long. 

I can give you a link to one, if you want.


----------



## hollydolly

Sure... yes please..


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> Sure... yes please..


Lemme get it and I'll PM you.


----------



## Nathan

Pepper said:


> Absolut vodka, from Sweden, is way better IMO.  Not that I can drink anymore, dammit!


The vodka I drink is:  Crown Russe Vodka is produced in Frankfort, KY.  
Yes, I remember going on the wagon last week, my osteo-arthritis has been getting the better of me, and I have no [good]alternatives.


----------



## RadishRose

Murrmurr said:


> Intercepted phone calls between Russian soldiers and family and fellow soldiers, and intercepted calls between Russians and Ukrainians -- there are a few YouTubers who are posting these phone calls on ...well, YouTube. And some news channels on YouTube also posted some of the conversations.
> 
> They're _extremely_ interesting, grounds for war-crime charges, some are horrific, some are really sad.
> 
> Here's a few.... There are a few other YouTubers posting them, too.


I couldn't get through the first one! God help everybody there


----------



## RadishRose

Pepper said:


> Absolut vodka, from Sweden, is way better IMO.  Not that I can drink anymore, dammit!


_Chopin_ vodka is one of the best potato vodka brands. It’s a premium Polish vodka


----------



## dseag2

RadishRose said:


> _Chopin_ vodka is one of the best potato vodka brands. It’s a premium Polish vodka


And you can enjoy moments like this when you drink it!


----------



## RadishRose

dseag2 said:


> And you can enjoy moments like this when you drink it!


omg  they were so outrageous.


----------



## RadishRose




----------



## Tish

I wasn't sure where to post this.


----------



## hollydolly

_Ukraine accused Russian forces of dropping phosphorus bombs on Mariupol's Azovstal steel plant on Sunday, as the families of the fighters trapped in the sprawling complex said they fear their fight is coming to an end.

An aerial video posted to social media on Sunday showed the attack on the plant, where Ukrainian soldiers have been making a final stand against the Russian onslaught on the port city that has been all-but reduced to rubble.

The footage begins with an aerial view of the vast Azovstal plant, when suddenly a Russian missile detonates in mid-air - releasing a fiery burst over the already heavily damaged factory buildings below._










A burst of fiery 'sparks' is shown over the plant a split second after a Russian missile detonated above the steel works, raining incendiary munitions down onto the factory 

_Sparks - which are actually a grouping of incendiary munitions - fall to the ground and ignite. From a distance, the explosions look almost like fire crackers, but in reality are a series of countless detonations.

As the camera pans out, more bursts of munitions are seen erupting over the plant, raining flaming explosives down from above.

The attack is unrelenting, with hundreds of the sparks landing on the roofs and grounds of the steel works and setting them alight.

Ukrainians claimed the video showed Vladimir Putin's forces dropping 9M22S incendiary and phosphorus bombs on Azovstal, that an official said burn at temperatures of over 2,000 degrees Celsius.
*Click here for the video of the attack... 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hosphorus-bombs-rain-Azovstal-steelworks.html*_


----------



## Em in Ohio

I have to admit that I can't bring myself to watch any of these videos, but I am grateful for the posts and those who can emotionally and psychologically handle them.  I do, however, listen to the news from multiple sources.  One thing that I do follow is the Doomsday Clock and a good synopsis with quotes can be found here:

https://www.postapocalypticmedia.co...press statement,January based on world events.

Partial quotes from that site:

" “In the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the Russian takeover of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists’ Science and Security Board announced that the Clock will stay at 100 seconds to midnight—the closest humanity has ever been to self-destruction. The board is a select group of globally-recognized leaders who set the Doomsday Clock, and it recently convened to discuss the latest developments in Ukraine.” "

" "In January 2022 the Science and Security Board of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists set the Doomsday Clock at 100 seconds to midnight. At that time, we called out Ukraine as a potential flashpoint in an increasingly tense international security landscape. For many years, we and others have warned that the most likely way nuclear weapons might be used is through an unwanted or unintended escalation from a conventional conflict. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has brought this nightmare scenario to life, with Russian President Vladimir Putin threatening to elevate nuclear alert levels and even first use of nuclear weapons if NATO steps in to help Ukraine. This is what 100 seconds to midnight looks like." "


----------



## JustDave

Would Putin go for broke and start a nuclear war?  He may desperate enough, I suppose, because his war in Ukraine is turning into an embarrassment for Russia.  Hitler shot himself in the head before his actual defeat, but he didn't have nuclear weapons.  Putin's best option would be to accept defeat.  Whether he would start a nuclear war is unknown, because he is a liar and a power monger caught in a corner.  He is near the end of his life, and doesn't have that much personally to lose.  His legacy would be worthless after a doomsday move, because no one would be around to build a monument to him.


----------



## hollydolly

_Russian state media's trumped-up narrative of Putin's glorious war in Ukraine was last night shattered by a retired colonel who gave an unusually frank and damning assessment of the situation on the frontlines and world stage.

Mikhail Khodarenok, a former air defence commander and graduate of some of the Soviet Union's top military schools, used his platform on one of Russia's most-watched talk shows to warn that the war is going badly and is likely to get worse, and that nuclear sabre-rattling - far from being threatening - actually 'looks quite amusing'.

Ukraine, he said, will soon have mobilised more than a million soldiers who will be trained by the West and equipped with modern weapons, ready to fight and die to protect their homeland against Russia.

Batting aside repeated interruption from propagandist Olga Skabeyeva that the army will be mostly made of conscripts, Khodarenok insisted that how an army is recruited is irrelevant - what really matters is willingness to fight, and Ukraine 'intends to fight to the last man.'
_
*Russia's position on the world stage is no better, he added, pointing out that 'we are in full geopolitical isolation, and that, however much we would hate to admit this, virtually the entire world is against us. And it's that situation that we need to get out of.'
*
_Khodarenok's remarks, broadcast to millions of Russians who until now have been spoon-fed a narrative of their military's prowess and Ukraine's weakness, mark a stunning break with the state-sanctioned narrative and puts him at extreme odds with the Kremlin stooges stood to either side of him.

First of all, he said, rumours of a 'moral and psychological breakdown in the Ukrainian armed forces which are allegedly on the verge of some kind of crisis in morale' are 'to put it mildly, is false'.

'The situation... is that the Ukrainian armed forces are able to arm a million people,' he added, who will be equipped with western weapons and trained how to use them by armies that are part of NATO. 'So a million armed Ukrainian soldiers needs to be viewed as a reality of the very near future,' he said.

Batting aside objections from Skabayeva that most of those men will be conscripts, he insisted that what really matters isn't how an army is recruited but its willingness to fight.

'A desire to protect one's homeland, in the sense that it exists in Ukraine, it really does exist there, they intend to fight to the last man,' he said. 'Ultimately victory on the battlefield is determined by a high level of morale among personnel, which sheds blood for the ideas which it's prepared to fight for.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lls-Russian-state-media-world-against-us.html_


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> _Russian state media's trumped-up narrative of Putin's glorious war in Ukraine was last night shattered by a retired colonel who gave an unusually frank and damning assessment of the situation on the frontlines and world stage.
> 
> Mikhail Khodarenok, a former air defence commander and graduate of some of the Soviet Union's top military schools, used his platform on one of Russia's most-watched talk shows to warn that the war is going badly and is likely to get worse, and that nuclear sabre-rattling - far from being threatening - actually 'looks quite amusing'.
> 
> Ukraine, he said, will soon have mobilised more than a million soldiers who will be trained by the West and equipped with modern weapons, ready to fight and die to protect their homeland against Russia.
> 
> Batting aside repeated interruption from propagandist Olga Skabeyeva that the army will be mostly made of conscripts, Khodarenok insisted that how an army is recruited is irrelevant - what really matters is willingness to fight, and Ukraine 'intends to fight to the last man.'_
> 
> *Russia's position on the world stage is no better, he added, pointing out that 'we are in full geopolitical isolation, and that, however much we would hate to admit this, virtually the entire world is against us. And it's that situation that we need to get out of.'*
> 
> _Khodarenok's remarks, broadcast to millions of Russians who until now have been spoon-fed a narrative of their military's prowess and Ukraine's weakness, mark a stunning break with the state-sanctioned narrative and puts him at extreme odds with the Kremlin stooges stood to either side of him.
> 
> First of all, he said, rumours of a 'moral and psychological breakdown in the Ukrainian armed forces which are allegedly on the verge of some kind of crisis in morale' are 'to put it mildly, is false'.
> 
> 'The situation... is that the Ukrainian armed forces are able to arm a million people,' he added, who will be equipped with western weapons and trained how to use them by armies that are part of NATO. 'So a million armed Ukrainian soldiers needs to be viewed as a reality of the very near future,' he said.
> 
> Batting aside objections from Skabayeva that most of those men will be conscripts, he insisted that what really matters isn't how an army is recruited but its willingness to fight.
> 
> 'A desire to protect one's homeland, in the sense that it exists in Ukraine, it really does exist there, they intend to fight to the last man,' he said. 'Ultimately victory on the battlefield is determined by a high level of morale among personnel, which sheds blood for the ideas which it's prepared to fight for.'
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lls-Russian-state-media-world-against-us.html_


And Russian propaganda still tries to insist that Ukraine is being bullied by Nazis and needs rescuing. And it's estimated that about 1/3 of the Russian people still believe that - mostly her elderly citizens.

Russian soldiers are calling home and telling their spouses and parents that this simply isn't true. Sadly, some of their parents think those soldiers have been brainwashed by the Ukrainians.


----------



## hollydolly

Murrmurr said:


> And Russian propaganda still tries to insist that Ukraine is being bullied by Nazis and needs rescuing. And it's estimated that about 1/3 of the Russian people still believe that - mostly her elderly citizens.
> 
> Russian soldiers are calling home and telling their spouses and parents that this simply isn't true. Sadly, some of their parents think those soldiers have been brainwashed by the Ukrainians.


I know...


----------



## Murrmurr

hollydolly said:


> I know...


Word is spreading in Russia, though. Maybe too slowly, but there's hope for them (and Ukraine).


----------



## Tish

I guess this is not ending any time soon


----------



## Murrmurr

Tish said:


> I guess this is not ending any time soon


There could be surprises just around the corner. But certain aspects of this invasion could be around for 1000 years. It is historic.


----------



## oldman

Let me ask this question. How long can Ukraine continue to fight without U.S. money? Seems like we are Ukraine’s war fund or piggy bank. Also, are other countries contributing to Ukraine’s war effort? I have seen many large buildings destroyed by Russian military. I think the U.S. will be asked to contribute to their rebuilding efforts.


----------



## SeniorBen

oldman said:


> Let me ask this question. How long can Ukraine continue to fight without U.S. money? Seems like we are Ukraine’s war fund or piggy bank. Also, are other countries contributing to Ukraine’s war effort? I have seen many large buildings destroyed by Russian military. I think the U.S. will be asked to contribute to their rebuilding efforts.


I think that if Ukraine emerges victorious, there will be a worldwide effort to help them rebuild, as there should be. And they should be allowed into NATO.

JMO.


----------



## hollydolly

*Putins' worst nightmare....*

_Finland and Sweden have today submitted formal letters of application to NATO, firing the starting pistol on their race to become part of the military alliance. 

Axel Wernhoff and Klaus Korhonen, the Swedish and Finnish ambassadors to NATO, were pictured walking into the Brussels headquarters on Tuesday morning clutching their letters of application to present to alliance head Jens Stoltenberg.

'I warmly welcome the requests by Finland and Sweden to join NATO. You are our closest partners,' a smiling Stoltenberg said as he held the application. 

'All allies agree on the importance of NATO enlargement. We all agree that we must stand together, and we all agree that this is an historic moment which we must seize. This is a good day.'

The proposals must now be judged and approved by all 30 members of the alliance before the Scandinavian nations can be accepted. The process typically takes up to a year, but will be fast-tracked and could take as little as two months.

*If approved as expected, the two will become part of the world's largest military alliance - gaining protection from its mutual defence pledge while adding almost a million troops to its ranks along with state of the art artillery, planes and submarines.*

But Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has threatened to derail the process, saying he is not in favour of membership because Sweden and Finland have granted asylum to opponents of his regime. 

All NATO decisions must be taken unanimously, so Erdogan's protest-vote could prove decisive.

Finnish and Swedish diplomats met with their Turkish counterpart at an informal summit in Berlin on Saturday in an attempt to iron out any creases, and there is a general feeling that - with the right incentives - Erdogan can be pacified.

Expanding the alliance to Finland and Sweden represents a huge shift in what is known as Europe's 'security architecture', as both nations have been historically bound to pacts of neutrality.

Finland's neutrality dates back to the Second World War and the last time it was invaded by the Soviets.

The Winter War - which saw the Soviet army suffer heavy casualties at Finnish hands - ended with a deal in which Finland ceded 10 per cent of its territory and agreed it would never allow its territory to be used to attack Russia.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...weden-submit-NATO-membership-application.html_


----------



## oldman

SeniorBen said:


> I think that if Ukraine emerges victorious, there will be a worldwide effort to help them rebuild, as there should be. And they should be allowed into NATO.
> 
> JMO.


I guess I am the lone wolf on this one. It just seems to me that the U.S. pays everyone's way in these situations. Whether it be to fight a war or to rebuild. I believe the U.S. tends to overdo it. I heard on Sirius BBC's news that Biden made a statement to one of their reporters that the U.S. is willing to commit up to $3trillion to the Ukraine's efforts against Russia. I didn't quite understand if that meant just war money or included rebuilding money. Either way, it doesn't much matter. Every dollar we hand over to Ukraine is borrowed. We have no money left in the budget to be able to give away cash. Right now, I Bonds are paying a very good rate of return at 9.62% interest, at least through October.


----------



## Pepper

I suppose then, maybe wrongfully @oldman, that you are willing to have the Soviets take over Eastern Europe?  That's the goal, to restore the "glory" days.


----------



## oldman

I know this sounds cold, but let's be real, the U.S. has no interests located in any of those countries that I am aware of, do they? Some of those countries in Eastern Europe are in NATO and if any of them would come under attack, NATO forces would be deployed. That fact alone should weigh heavy on Putin's mind (what he has left). I would also think that if WWIII hasn't been started before then, that very well may be the beginning of it.

I have heard several members of congress use the statement that "we are at war with Russia." I don't know how that came about, unless they believe that by "giving" money to Ukraine to support their war effort, the U.S. has involved itself.

I also believe that we are on the brink of WWIII. I think that it wouldn't take much more for the U.S. to deploy troops to the region, but not to engage, but to act as a deterrent to Russia to not expand the war zone.

We are also sending special ops forces to Somalia to fight off the terrorist groups in that region. My suggestion to investors is to buy into the defense stocks. They seem to be doing OK.


----------



## hollydolly

_A baby-faced Russian tank commander who shot a Ukrainian grandfather dead was stared down in court yesterday by his victim’s widow – who said he should ‘rot in jail’.

Vadim Shishimarin, 21, pleaded guilty to murder at Ukraine’s first war crimes trial after blasting Oleksandr Shelypov, 62, four times in the head.

Kateryna Shelypova told the Daily Mail that her husband of 39 years had been a ‘peaceful pensioner’ who had posed no threat to Russian soldiers.

Mr Shelypov had served in the Russian military as a KGB bodyguard to former Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev.

In a cruel twist of fate he was murdered 40 years later in the invasion ordered by president Vladimir Putin, himself a former KGB intelligence officer.

A packed courtroom in Kyiv heard that Mr Shelypov was pushing his bicycle home when he was gunned down in cold blood yards from his front door in the north-eastern village of Chupakhivka on February 28, the fifth day of the war.

Shishimarin fired an AK-47 assault rifle from the open window of a stolen car as his unit fled Ukrainian forces who had blown up their tank.

The sergeant, from Irkutsk in Siberia, had confessed to shooting Mr Shelypov on orders from a superior officer.

The victim’s wife, 61, had travelled five hours by car to Kyiv from her home in rural Ukraine, just 50 miles from the Russian border, to confront her husband’s killer in court yesterday.





Russian tank commander Vadim Shishimarin, 21, who shot a Ukrainian grandfather dead was stared down in court yesterday by his victim’s widow – who said he should ‘rot in jail'. The victim's wife, Kateryna Shelypova, looks at Shishimarin in court on Wednesday_
​


----------



## hollydolly

_The US Defense Department is in the process of buying new tank-busting "kamikaze" drones for Ukraine, as part of efforts to help the country fight off Russia's invasion.

The Pentagon is negotiating with company AeroVironment to procure 10 Switchblade 600 drones, a new dive-bombing, armour-piercing tactical drone that explodes on impact, Bloomberg reports.

AeroVironment did not immediately reply to a request for comment. Here's what we know about its killer drones, and what difference they could make in the war in Ukraine.






There are two versions of the Switchblade suicide drone: the Switchblade 300 and the Switchblade 600.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin confirmed in April that the Pentagon was sending both variants to Ukraine.

*According to Bloomberg*, the US has committed to send at least 700 Switchblades to Ukraine, and at least 100 have already arrived. So far, those have been the Switchblade 300, a light single-use drone that fits in a backpack and is designed to attack personnel and light vehicles.

AeroVironment says in a factsheet that the *Switchblade 300* cruises at around 100 km/h and carries cameras, guidance systems and explosives to dive-bomb into its target. It can fly for up to 15 minutes and 10 km before striking.

The kamikaze drone uses real-time GPS coordinates and video for "precise targeting with low collateral effects," the company says.

It’s launched from a tube and its small size allows it to take off from a variety of air, sea, and ground platforms. The whole kit - including the payload, launcher, and transport bag - weighs just 2.5 kg.

Unlike most weapons, the Switchblade can also disengage or abort a mission at any time, and then recommit to another target depending on what the operator commands.

This aims to ensure that strikes are precise and can be called off at the very last minute if they endanger civilians or properties nearby.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...amikaze-weapons-and-how-can-they-help-ukraine_


----------



## JustDave

Value of companies leaving Russia estimated at roughly half of Russia's GDP
This surprises me.


----------



## oldman

hollydolly said:


> _The US Defense Department is in the process of buying new tank-busting "kamikaze" drones for Ukraine, as part of efforts to help the country fight off Russia's invasion.
> 
> The Pentagon is negotiating with company AeroVironment to procure 10 Switchblade 600 drones, a new dive-bombing, armour-piercing tactical drone that explodes on impact, Bloomberg reports.
> 
> AeroVironment did not immediately reply to a request for comment. Here's what we know about its killer drones, and what difference they could make in the war in Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two versions of the Switchblade suicide drone: the Switchblade 300 and the Switchblade 600.
> 
> US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin confirmed in April that the Pentagon was sending both variants to Ukraine.
> 
> *According to Bloomberg*, the US has committed to send at least 700 Switchblades to Ukraine, and at least 100 have already arrived. So far, those have been the Switchblade 300, a light single-use drone that fits in a backpack and is designed to attack personnel and light vehicles.
> 
> AeroVironment says in a factsheet that the *Switchblade 300* cruises at around 100 km/h and carries cameras, guidance systems and explosives to dive-bomb into its target. It can fly for up to 15 minutes and 10 km before striking.
> 
> The kamikaze drone uses real-time GPS coordinates and video for "precise targeting with low collateral effects," the company says.
> 
> It’s launched from a tube and its small size allows it to take off from a variety of air, sea, and ground platforms. The whole kit - including the payload, launcher, and transport bag - weighs just 2.5 kg.
> 
> Unlike most weapons, the Switchblade can also disengage or abort a mission at any time, and then recommit to another target depending on what the operator commands.
> 
> This aims to ensure that strikes are precise and can be called off at the very last minute if they endanger civilians or properties nearby.
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...amikaze-weapons-and-how-can-they-help-ukraine_


I’m sure that Ukraine can well afford these weapons. The U.S. just sent them another from $40billion. Of corse, this is all borrowed or printed money. We have an endless supply. Oh wait, we are giving them these weapons in addition to the $40billion. I sometimes wonder if all of this money we are supposedly sending to Ukraine is actually getting to their shores.


----------



## hollydolly

Finally the Russian people are seeing through Putins' lies..


_This is the extraordinary moment concert-goers in Russia's second-largest city chanted 'f** the war' as opposition to Putin's invasion of Ukraine grows. 

Footage shows hundreds of people in a packed venue in St Petersburg repeatedly denouncing the war in Ukraine in a brazen show of defiance to Putin.

It is unclear exactly when the footage was filmed, but it was posted online at the weekend by a member of opposition politician Alexei Navalny's party. 

The video emerged after rock singer Yuri Shevchuk was charged with 'discrediting' the military for giving an anti-war speech at a gig in the city of Perm last week.

In footage of that speech, which was also posted online, Shevchuk - lead singer of 1980s rock band DDT - can be heard telling the 8,000-strong crowd: 'The people of Ukraine are being murdered. For what? 

'Our boys are dying over there. For what? What are the goals, my friends? For some Napoleonic plans of another Caesar of ours, yes? 

'The motherland, my friends, is not the president’s a** that has to be slobbered and kissed all the time.'

Russian opposition to the war erupted shortly after Putin declared the start of his 'special military operation' back in February, with mass protests in Moscow and other large Russian cities.

But the despotic president reacted quickly with new laws to crack down on free speech, shuttering almost all opposition news outlets and arresting people at the rallies en masse.

Since then protests have been muted, though UK intelligence today predicted they will grow again as Russia's death toll mounts.
_
Video on this link....  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10844695/Ukraine-Thousands-chant-f-war-concert-Russia.html


----------



## Don M.

There may have been an assassination attempt on Putin, recently.  Hopefully, there will be another....which succeeds.  This nutcase is a ticking bomb whose actions could result in global disaster.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainia...ination-attempt-two-months-ago-124633685.html


----------



## oldman

From what I have read, Ukraine has lost over 2700 civilian lives and $600billion in damage to their country and have also lost approximately 5 million jobs Where will they get the money to rebuild, so they can get people back to work, which will take awhile, I am sure.


----------



## oldman

My wife and I were willing to sponsor a family of up to four people for 30 months through our church. The group we were working through rejected our application, along with two others in our church due to our age. No other reason was given. The group sponsoring the drive to obtain sponsors told us that we can either donate to Ukraine through the Red Cross or a few other organizations mentioned in the brochure that was handed to us. We decided that since 2 other families had been accepted to sponsor families that we would donate money directly to the families sponsoring to help with their expenses. No mention was made when they would get their family. I think the holdup is the state department's unwillingness to get this done. My wife had already purchased some things to give to the Ukraine family that we thought we would get, so now she will hand it over to any family that gets settled here with another U.S, family.


----------



## Tish

Russian President Vladimir Putin survived an assassination attempt launched not long after he invaded Ukraine, according to Ukraine’s top military intelligence official.
Kyrylo Budanov told the Ukrainian newspaper Ukrainska Pravda: “There was an attempt to assassinate Putin” in March.
The newspaper also published an English version of the comments. Per Pravda’s translation, Budanov said:
“There was an attempt to assassinate Putin… He was even attacked, it is said, by representatives of the Caucasus, not so long ago. This is non-public information. [It was an] Absolutely unsuccessful attempt, but it really happened… It was about 2 months ago.

“I repeat, this attempt was unsuccessful. There was no publicity about this event, but it took place.”

Full Story


----------



## Capt Lightning

Putin is sinking to a new low by saying that he will allow grain out of Ukraine is sanctions on Russia are lifted.  It's not his grain!  It's time he was hit even harder.


----------



## oldman

hollydolly said:


> _The US Defense Department is in the process of buying new tank-busting "kamikaze" drones for Ukraine, as part of efforts to help the country fight off Russia's invasion.
> 
> The Pentagon is negotiating with company AeroVironment to procure 10 Switchblade 600 drones, a new dive-bombing, armour-piercing tactical drone that explodes on impact, Bloomberg reports.
> 
> AeroVironment did not immediately reply to a request for comment. Here's what we know about its killer drones, and what difference they could make in the war in Ukraine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two versions of the Switchblade suicide drone: the Switchblade 300 and the Switchblade 600.
> 
> US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin confirmed in April that the Pentagon was sending both variants to Ukraine.
> 
> *According to Bloomberg*, the US has committed to send at least 700 Switchblades to Ukraine, and at least 100 have already arrived. So far, those have been the Switchblade 300, a light single-use drone that fits in a backpack and is designed to attack personnel and light vehicles.
> 
> AeroVironment says in a factsheet that the *Switchblade 300* cruises at around 100 km/h and carries cameras, guidance systems and explosives to dive-bomb into its target. It can fly for up to 15 minutes and 10 km before striking.
> 
> The kamikaze drone uses real-time GPS coordinates and video for "precise targeting with low collateral effects," the company says.
> 
> It’s launched from a tube and its small size allows it to take off from a variety of air, sea, and ground platforms. The whole kit - including the payload, launcher, and transport bag - weighs just 2.5 kg.
> 
> Unlike most weapons, the Switchblade can also disengage or abort a mission at any time, and then recommit to another target depending on what the operator commands.
> 
> This aims to ensure that strikes are precise and can be called off at the very last minute if they endanger civilians or properties nearby.
> 
> https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...amikaze-weapons-and-how-can-they-help-ukraineThese_


These drones are really cool.
https://www.google.com/search?q=aer...KAF6BAgDEAg#kpvalbx=_HjWOYrv4I7DI_Qa9rI3wAg18


----------



## SeaBreeze

President Zelenskyy says Putin has to withdraw to pre-war positions before any talks with him.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...-talks/ar-AAXH4vf?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL


----------



## JustDave

Capt Lightning said:


> Putin is sinking to a new low by saying that he will allow grain out of Ukraine is sanctions on Russia are lifted.  It's not his grain!  It's time he was hit even harder.


In other words, he needs grain bad enough to actually buy it from them, rather than steal it from them.  How considerate of him.


----------



## WhatInThe

Russia about to default on some loans to the US. The bond rating is already at junk status.

https://granthshala.com/russia-coul...-us-doesnt-extend-license-to-pay-bondholders/

First loan default for Russia since the Bolshivek Revolution


----------



## hollydolly

*Vladimir Putin has reportedly been given warned he has just three to years to live as Russian intelligence sources become increasingly worried about their ailing leader.
*
_An FSB officer described the Russian president's condition as a 'severe form of rapidly progressing cancer', as speculation ramped up that Putin was suffering with some form of serious illness amid the invasion of Ukraine.

The spy explained the wartime leader has 'no more than two to three years' left and he is also losing his sight, reports the Mirror. 

News of the Russian leader's terminal illness emerged as part of a secret message from the Russian agent to fugitive and former FSB agent Boris Karpichkov.

The message warned Putin is refusing to wear glasses over fears it would admit a form of weakness, and he is now lashing out at his subordinates with 'uncontrolled fury'. 
The developments come as news of his deteriorating health continues to leak out of Russia from a Telegram channel which claims to have sources inside the Kremlin.

Putin reportedly underwent 'successful' cancer surgery this month and is recovering following advice from medics that treatment was 'essential', according to Telegram channel General SVR.

The news emerged just hours before Putin appeared on state TV meeting with ally Alexander Lukashenko in Sochi, when he was caught on camera awkwardly twisting his feet while the pair sat down for talks.

It is the second time Putin has been filmed making the odd movement, which was caught on camera during a meeting with Tajikistan's president a week ago, and comes off the back of rumours that he is suffering Parkinson's.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...dly-progressing-severe-cancer-FSB-claims.html_


----------



## hollydolly

He's certainly got the look of someone who is on steroids, compared to his usual slim self..


----------



## JustDave

hollydolly said:


> *Vladimir Putin has reportedly been given warned he has just three to years to live as Russian intelligence sources become increasingly worried about their ailing leader.*
> 
> _https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...dly-progressing-severe-cancer-FSB-claims.html_


It was about a month ago, I heard someone speculating on this, although there was no hard evidence at the time.  The only reason I remembered this was because the speculation did explain, if only in part, why Putin got such a crazy idea to invade Ukraine, especially considering how ill prepared Russia was to start a war.  I suppose, with a time limit before him, Putin doesn't have a lot to lose.  He was going to be dead or replaced, and he had one last shot at a legacy.  But the way the Ukraine is kicking his ass, granted with a lot of outside help, this legacy could go down in history as a major bone headed flop.  Of course, it could escalate into a global catastrophe.  Wars can do that too.  But then there wouldn't be much left to leave a legacy to.


----------



## hollydolly

JustDave said:


> It was about a month ago, I heard someone speculating on this, although there was no hard evidence at the time.  The only reason I remembered this was because the speculation did explain, if only in part, why Putin got such a crazy idea to invade Ukraine, especially considering how ill prepared Russia was to start a war.  I suppose, with a time limit before him, Putin doesn't have a lot to lose.  He was going to be dead or replaced, and he had one last shot at a legacy.  But the way the Ukraine is kicking his ass, granted with a lot of outside help, this legacy could go down in history as a major bone headed flop.  Of course, it could escalate into a global catastrophe.  Wars can do that too.  But then there wouldn't be much left to leave a legacy to.


Oh yes I'm totally aware of all of this... the speculation here about Putins' health began at the beginning of the year..


----------



## hollydolly

Oh sheeee---yit  this is going to set the cat among the pigeons..

_Two British men captured by pro-Russian rebel forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death and are set to face a firing squad after a sham three-day trial, sparking outrage from the UK and its Western allies.

Aiden Aslin, 28, and Shaun Pinner, 48, were convicted last night of being 'mercenaries' for fighting with Ukrainian troops weeks after they were captured by Russian forces during the siege of Mariupol.

They appeared behind a metal cage at a court in territory occupied by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine as the verdict was read out today. 

Ex-British Army soldier Pinner stared at the ground and appeared distraught and close to tears, while former care worker Aslin remained composed. A third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, was convicted alongside them.

It is understood Aslin's mother Ang Wood found out about the draconian sentence while watching the TV news at the family home in Newark, Nottinghamshire.

The pair were captured by Russian forces after becoming surrounded in the port city of Mariupol in April. They have since been paraded in various videos with visible injuries and appeared to read from scripts.

Tonight, MP Robert Jenrick said: ‘This disgusting Soviet-era style show trial is the latest reminder of the depravity of Putin's regime.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-forces-sentenced-death-fighting-Ukraine.html_


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

oldman said:


> I’m sure that Ukraine can well afford these weapons. The U.S. just sent them another from $40billion. Of corse, this is all borrowed or printed money. We have an endless supply. Oh wait, we are giving them these weapons in addition to the $40billion. I sometimes wonder if all of this money we are supposedly sending to Ukraine is actually getting to their shores.


Won't surprise me if suitcases of US$$$$ are being passed around by Ukrainian officials. No different than what happened in Afghanistan. Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe. Guess who is #1? Russia!. Two peas in a pod. I guess it's not popular to seize yachts and jets from Ukrainian oligarchs!

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-index?continent=europe

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

hollydolly said:


> Oh sheeee---yit  this is going to set the cat among the pigeons..
> 
> _*Two British men captured by pro-Russian rebel forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death and are set to face a firing squad after a sham three-day trial, sparking outrage from the UK and its Western allies.*_
> 
> _*Aiden Aslin, 28, and Shaun Pinner, 48, were convicted last night of being 'mercenaries' for fighting with Ukrainian troops weeks after they were captured by Russian forces during the siege of Mariupol.*
> 
> They appeared behind a metal cage at a court in territory occupied by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine as the verdict was read out today.
> 
> Ex-British Army soldier Pinner stared at the ground and appeared distraught and close to tears, while former care worker Aslin remained composed. A third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, was convicted alongside them.
> 
> It is understood Aslin's mother Ang Wood found out about the draconian sentence while watching the TV news at the family home in Newark, Nottinghamshire.
> 
> The pair were captured by Russian forces after becoming surrounded in the port city of Mariupol in April. They have since been paraded in various videos with visible injuries and appeared to read from scripts.
> 
> Tonight, MP Robert Jenrick said: ‘This disgusting Soviet-era style show trial is the latest reminder of the depravity of Putin's regime.'
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-forces-sentenced-death-fighting-Ukraine.html_


I think this is called: Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


----------



## Tish

hollydolly said:


> *Vladimir Putin has reportedly been given warned he has just three to years to live as Russian intelligence sources become increasingly worried about their ailing leader.*
> 
> _An FSB officer described the Russian president's condition as a 'severe form of rapidly progressing cancer', as speculation ramped up that Putin was suffering with some form of serious illness amid the invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> The spy explained the wartime leader has 'no more than two to three years' left and he is also losing his sight, reports the Mirror.
> 
> News of the Russian leader's terminal illness emerged as part of a secret message from the Russian agent to fugitive and former FSB agent Boris Karpichkov.
> 
> The message warned Putin is refusing to wear glasses over fears it would admit a form of weakness, and he is now lashing out at his subordinates with 'uncontrolled fury'.
> The developments come as news of his deteriorating health continues to leak out of Russia from a Telegram channel which claims to have sources inside the Kremlin.
> 
> Putin reportedly underwent 'successful' cancer surgery this month and is recovering following advice from medics that treatment was 'essential', according to Telegram channel General SVR.
> 
> The news emerged just hours before Putin appeared on state TV meeting with ally Alexander Lukashenko in Sochi, when he was caught on camera awkwardly twisting his feet while the pair sat down for talks.
> 
> It is the second time Putin has been filmed making the odd movement, which was caught on camera during a meeting with Tajikistan's president a week ago, and comes off the back of rumours that he is suffering Parkinson's.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...dly-progressing-severe-cancer-FSB-claims.html_


Oh, so the surgery didn't work?


----------



## oldman

This story will put mustard on your hotdog. 

Back in 1999, I had just flown into LAX from Denver. My next flight was supposed to be nonstop back home to D.C. I was even on the plane and seated in the cockpit when I got a call from the dispatcher asking me to come to the office. When I walked into his office and looked at him, I knew this wasn’t going to be good for me.

He told me there was a plane sitting at the gate waiting to leave, but they don’t have a Captain and would I take the flight. The Captain that was supposed to take the flight is still about 15 minutes from the airport and this other flight is already about 45 minutes late leaving. I asked where is it going. He says Anchorage. I have never flown there and how am I getting home tonight? He says, “Well, you’re not and the other bad news is that you have to make a stop in San Francisco.”

I agreed like I always did. I was one of those people that do whatever you have to do for the betterment of the company. We fly using what is called waypoints. It’s like flying in steps to get where you are going. This flight had 4 waypoints on it. I had just left waypoint number 3 when I saw an unrecognizable blip on my radar. I had no idea what it was and before I could call traffic control, they called me and told that I had wandered into Russian airspace. I told the controller that I thought I was just buzzed by a Russian mig. The controller gave me a new heading to get me back to U.S. airspace and I did it very quickly. That was the last that I saw of him or her. Scared the crap out of me.

Commercial planes cannot talk to military planes and we can’t even tell if we have been painted or what is called being locked on as a target. We had no way of knowing if we were or not, but I wanted to get back into U.S. Airspace pronto.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

hollydolly said:


> Oh sheeee---yit  this is going to set the cat among the pigeons..
> 
> _Two British men captured by pro-Russian rebel forces in Ukraine have been sentenced to death and are set to face a firing squad after a sham three-day trial, sparking outrage from the UK and its Western allies.
> 
> *Aiden Aslin, 28, and Shaun Pinner, 48, were convicted last night of being 'mercenaries' for fighting with Ukrainian troops weeks after they were captured by Russian forces during the siege of Mariupol.*
> 
> They appeared behind a metal cage at a court in territory occupied by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic in eastern Ukraine as the verdict was read out today.
> 
> Ex-British Army soldier Pinner stared at the ground and appeared distraught and close to tears, while former care worker Aslin remained composed. A third man, Moroccan national Saaudun Brahim, was convicted alongside them.
> 
> It is understood Aslin's mother Ang Wood found out about the draconian sentence while watching the TV news at the family home in Newark, Nottinghamshire.
> 
> The pair were captured by Russian forces after becoming surrounded in the port city of Mariupol in April. They have since been paraded in various videos with visible injuries and appeared to read from scripts.
> 
> Tonight, MP Robert Jenrick said: ‘This disgusting Soviet-era style show trial is the latest reminder of the depravity of Putin's regime.'
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-forces-sentenced-death-fighting-Ukraine.html_


Article 47:

1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750057


----------



## Tish

oldman said:


> This story will put mustard on your hotdog.
> 
> Back in 1999, I had just flown into LAX from Denver. My next flight was supposed to be nonstop back home to D.C. I was even on the plane and seated in the cockpit when I got a call from the dispatcher asking me to come to the office. When I walked into his office and looked at him, I knew this wasn’t going to be good for me.
> 
> He told me there was a plane sitting at the gate waiting to leave, but they don’t have a Captain and would I take the flight. The Captain that was supposed to take the flight is still about 15 minutes from the airport and this other flight is already about 45 minutes late leaving. I asked where is it going. He says Anchorage. I have never flown there and how am I getting home tonight? He says, “Well, you’re not and the other bad news is that you have to make a stop in San Francisco.”
> 
> I agreed like I always did. I was one of those people that do whatever you have to do for the betterment of the company. We fly using what is called waypoints. It’s like flying in steps to get where you are going. This flight had 4 waypoints on it. I had just left waypoint number 3 when I saw an unrecognizable blip on my radar. I had no idea what it was and before I could call traffic control, they called me and told that I had wandered into Russian airspace. I told the controller that I thought I was just buzzed by a Russian mig. The controller gave me a new heading to get me back to U.S. airspace and I did it very quickly. That was the last that I saw of him or her. Scared the crap out of me.
> 
> Commercial planes cannot talk to military planes and we can’t even tell if we have been painted or what is called being locked on as a target. We had no way of knowing if we were or not, but I wanted to get back into U.S. Airspace pronto.


Holy Cow that is scary.


----------



## oldman

Tish said:


> Holy Cow that is scary.


I never knew how big those planes were until that night. I thought my first officer was going to crap his pants when he saw the missiles on the side of the plane. Very intimidating to say the least.

The Russians had accidentally shot down a Korean airplane full of passengers back in 1983. The plane had accidentally wandered into Russian airspace, avoided the warnings and acted suspiciously. I remembered when that happened and I knew that I needed to get back inside U.S. airspace immediately. The Russian plane never fired any warning shots at us. I’m not or ever was a fighter pilot, but I know when a plane enters another country’s airspace, they will sometimes fire like a sparkler at the encroachers as a warning shot. We never got any warnings. We just hauled a$$ back inside U.S. airspace and the incident was over. The state department wasn’t even alerted.

I also remember when the U.S. shot down an Iranian (?) passenger plane from a ship killing all onboard the plane. I think it was determined that the plane’s Captain made several mistakes by not observing the warnings that the ship’s commander had sent to the plane. I’ll have to look it up and reacquaint myself with that incident.

Here is what I found.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


----------



## oldman

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Won't surprise me if suitcases of US$$$$ are being passed around by Ukrainian officials. No different than what happened in Afghanistan. Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe. Guess who is #1? Russia!. Two peas in a pod. I guess it's not popular to seize yachts and jets from Ukrainian oligarchs!
> 
> https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-index?continent=europe
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine


How much of that $40bil that the U.S. sent to Ukraine actually reached it’s intended destination? We haven’t heard much from Ukraine since we sent the money.


----------



## Tish

oldman said:


> I never knew how big those planes were until that night. I thought my first officer was going to crap his pants when he saw the missiles on the side of the plane. Very intimidating to say the least.
> 
> The Russians had accidentally shot down a Korean airplane full of passengers back in 1983. The plane had accidentally wandered into Russian airspace, avoided the warnings and acted suspiciously. I remembered when that happened and I knew that I needed to get back inside U.S. airspace immediately. The Russian plane never fired any warning shots at us. I’m not or ever was a fighter pilot, but I know when a plane enters another country’s airspace, they will sometimes fire like a sparkler at the encroachers as a warning shot. We never got any warnings. We just hauled a$$ back inside U.S. airspace and the incident was over. The state department wasn’t even alerted.
> 
> I also remember when the U.S. shot down an Iranian (?) passenger plane from a ship killing all onboard the plane. I think it was determined that the plane’s Captain made several mistakes by not observing the warnings that the ship’s commander had sent to the plane. I’ll have to look it up and reacquaint myself with that incident.
> 
> Here is what I found.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


I have to ask, does this happen often?


----------



## Warrigal

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Article 47:
> 
> 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
> 
> https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/470-750057


They are not mercenaries. They are members of the Ukrainian military and have been since before the invasion. One is married to a Ukrainian woman.



> A court in Russian-controlled east Ukraine convicted 28-year-old Aiden Aslin, from Newark, 48-year-old Shaun Pinner, from Watford, and Saaudun Brahim on charges of “terrorism”. Observers said the process was intended to imitate the war crimes trials of Russian soldiers taking place in Kyiv.
> 
> Both Britons have said they were serving in the Ukrainian marines, making them active-duty soldiers who should be protected by the Geneva conventions on prisoners of war. However, Russian state media has portrayed them as mercenaries, and the court has convicted them on the charge of “being a mercenary”.



This is what it is really all about -



> Ukraine has given three Russian soldiers prison sentences for war crimes tied to the Russian offensive that began on 24 February. Vadim Shishimarin, 21, was sentenced to life in prison on 23 May for killing a 62-year-old civilian in Ukraine’s north-eastern Sumy region early in the war. On 31 May, Alexander Bobikin and Alexander Ivanov were each sentenced to more than 11 years in prison for shelling attacks on population centres that “violated the laws and customs of war”.


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## hollydolly

48-year-old Shaun Pinner, from Watford.... lives in my county just 20 miles from me....


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## hollydolly

I hope this is means the end of the war, and not a calm beofre the storm...

Kiev (Kyiv)... today

_Residents of Kyiv were out in their droves on Saturday to make the most of 34 degree temperatures, with hundreds enjoying the sunshine on the city's central beach - just weeks after Ukraine's capital came under siege from Russia's invading armies and rocket strikes levelled buildings and killed civilians.

Pictures from the banks of the Dnieper river that courses through Kyiv showed people lounging in the sun, swimming in the water and playing games of volleyball, with the city's skyline seen across the river. 

Earlier this year, the same view of the city would have featured smoke rising above the skyline as Russian shells bombarded Kyiv and Ukrainian defenders fought to keep their would-be conquerors from reaching its centre._


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## Nosy Bee-54

The Pontiff speaks:

'We see what is happening now in Ukraine in a certain way because it is closer to us and pricks our sensibilities more,' the Pope said in his comments last month.

*'But there are other countries far away - think of some parts of Africa, northern Nigeria, northern Congo - where war is ongoing and nobody cares.*

 And this is bad for humanity, a calamity. You have to think that in a century there have been three world wars, with all the arms trade behind it!' he continued.

While condemning 'the ferocity, the cruelty of Russian troops, we must not forget the real problems if we want them to be solved,' Francis said, *including the armaments industry among the factors that provide incentives for war.*

Francis said that several months before President Vladimir Putin sent his forces into Ukraine, the pontiff had met with a head of state who expressed concern that NATO was 'barking at the gates of Russia' in a way that could lead to war.

Francis then said in his own words: 'We do not see the whole drama unfolding behind this war, which was perhaps somehow either provoked or not prevented'

Asking himself rhetorically if that made him 'pro-Putin,' he said: 'No, I am not. It would be simplistic and wrong to say such a thing.' *He added: 'I am simply opposed to reducing complexity to distinction between good and bad'.*

'The war in Ukraine has now been added to the regional wars that for years have taken a heavy toll of death and destruction,' Francis says in the message.

'Yet here the situation is even more complex due to the direct intervention of a 'superpower' aimed at imposing its own will in violation of the principle of the self-determination of peoples,' he said 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rancis-suggests-war-Ukraine-way-provoked.html


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