# Entire Side of Condo Building Collapses Near Miami Beach



## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2021)

The entire side of an apartment/condo building collapsed near Miami Beach in Surfside. One dead, numerous injured. Happened around 2 in the morning.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local...llapse-of-condo-building-in-surfside/2479570/


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## Buckeye (Jun 24, 2021)

Totally scary.  I'll be really surprised if more bodies are not found in the rubble.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Totally scary.  I'll be really surprised if more bodies are not found in the rubble.


Same here.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2021)

I wonder ............ Did a sinkhole initiate the collapse ?


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## Ceege (Jun 24, 2021)

rgp said:


> I wonder ............ Did a sinkhole initiate the collapse ?


.....Or, poor building codes.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

rgp said:


> I wonder ............ Did a sinkhole initiate the collapse ?


Or never architecturally sound in the first place.


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## SmoothSeas (Jun 24, 2021)

cities built below sea-level. towering buildings built on sand...

one pauses to wonder, where has human ingenuity gone adrift...


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## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2021)

I'm hoping alot of snowbirds use it and weren't there this time of year. Years ago many a high rise condo or apartment looked like a ghost ship at night this time of year.

Also keep in mind alot of beach front communities especially those with ocean on oneside and a bay on the other are basically on a man made island usually consisting of rocks. In the scope of things, nature, time etc the 'island' probably hasn't fully settled yet so movement could create cavities, air space and flowing water. Besides salt content moving water can do a lot of damage.

My guess is there was a leak or two no one realized was there especially if a snowbird unit/s. 

It was built in 1981 which isn't that old per say and Hopefully the casualties don't grow.

New video

https://www.fox8live.com/video/2021/06/24/new-surveillance-video-building-collapse-miami/


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## Giants fan1954 (Jun 24, 2021)

I would imagine that it being 2 a.m. that the casualties will rise rapidly.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 24, 2021)

Giants fan1954 said:


> I would imagine that it being 2 a.m. that the casualties will rise rapidly.


Yes and no. I'm hoping alot of snowbirds used it and weren't there this time of year.

Until the first bubble cranked up by the late 1990s in south Florida one could still get a condo under $200K and cheaper which means the building being built pre boom had enough time to attract snowbirds looking for a winter home.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

Imagine living on the other side of the building? Bet they'll be more than a few sleepless nights for many in the days/weeks/months/years ahead.

Of course the old accessed values of their properties will be worth the same as the paper they flush down their toilets from day-to-day, so they won't even be able to dump them and move.

Living at heights has never interested me. I don't know how people do it.

Praying for good news on this but being realistic in my way of thinking and bracing myself for the worst.


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## hawkdon (Jun 24, 2021)

Built on sand and too much sand in the concrete mix.....sad...


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## Tom 86 (Jun 24, 2021)

Noon news here people they interviewed said they heard a huge loud boom before it fell.  Hope it was not a terrorist attack.  Prayers for all there.


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## AnnieA (Jun 24, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Noon news here people they interviewed said they heard a huge loud boom before it fell.  Hope it was not a terrorist attack.  Prayers for all there.



The collapse video does look as though something major happened rapidly.  I'd think building faults leading to that kind of collapse would've been noticeable before an event to that extreme.


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## AnnieA (Jun 24, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Imagine living on the other side of the building? Bet they'll be more than a few sleepless nights for many in the days/weeks/months/years ahead.



A good many will probably be displaced until the rest of the structure is examined.


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## Don M. (Jun 24, 2021)

One of the news reports, a few minutes ago, said there were still 51 people unaccounted for.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> A good many will probably be displaced until the rest of the structure is examined.


My thoughts at this time, the entire building should be razed.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 24, 2021)

Prayers for all involved.


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## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2021)

SmoothSeas said:


> cities built below sea-level. towering buildings built on sand...
> 
> one pauses to wonder, where has human ingenuity gone adrift...


Profit motive, and weak oversight by authorities.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2021)

Praise cannot be high enough for the first responders . Would you want to enter that building now ? Even go up on the rubble pile ? ............ Kudos to them !!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pappy (Jun 24, 2021)

Watching it right now on the news. A guy walking his dog heard a young man calling for help, so he stayed with the young man until more help arrived. Up to 100 unaccounted for.


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## hawkdon (Jun 24, 2021)

I sorta remember back in late 40's early 50's, that this building
collapsing went on many time, usually due to poor planning and piss poor construction...can remember my dad commenting about the lousy construction is some of those new york city buildings esp.....


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## Happyflowerlady (Jun 24, 2021)

Here is a video of the building as it was collapsing. It came down like a pancake, just like the Twin Towers came down, and came down in two separate collapses.
People reported hearing what sounded like bombs going off before the collapse, so this might turn out to have been done deliberately for some reason. There is already talk about the strange way that it collapsed.
Watch the video and see what you think.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/flori...lance-video-captures-surfside-condo-collapse/

youtube video :


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Here is a video of the building as it was collapsing. It came down like a pancake, just like the Twin Towers came down, and came down in two separate collapses.
> People reported hearing what sounded like bombs going off before the collapse, so this might turn out to have been done deliberately for some reason. There is already talk about the strange way that it collapsed.
> Watch the video and see what you think.
> 
> ...


I think the building collapsed in a strange way for sure, also thought the way the last strip of condos (far right) hung on for a few seconds before giving way was not in keeping with a building that was properly engineered.

My husband says it looks like the building was rigged for demolition the way it came down.


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## Robert59 (Jun 24, 2021)

Update 
Professor: Condo Building Was Sinking Since 1990s​Nearly 100 people unaccounted for after collapse in Florida.

It may take days for the numbers to crystallize after part of a condo building collapsed overnight near Miami, but authorities on Thursday were focusing on a harrowing number: 99 people are unaccounted for, reports the _Miami Herald_ and _Washington Post_.

https://www.newser.com/story/307811/51-unaccounted-for-after-florida-condo-collapse.html


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 24, 2021)

@Robert59  In the article I read, an inspector remembered seeing a report about the building years ago when he heard about the collapse. Apparently the mayor at the time didn't want to jump to conclusions about the degree of safety (or lack thereof). This is a tragedy that should have been prevented. I smell lots of lawsuits.


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## Don M. (Jun 24, 2021)

There have been reports of rusty steel in the foundation, and the ground settling underneath the building.  It will probably be months before a reason is found for this collapse.  At any rate, buildings built this close to the shoreline, with the oceans rising, will eventually All be at risk.


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## FastTrax (Jun 24, 2021)

This is an ongoing live audio feed of the Champion Towers South Condo in Surfside rescue and recovery operation:

www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/34551


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## fmdog44 (Jun 24, 2021)

The lawyers will have a field day with this one. It was said today it my take even years to finalize the investigation. I find that very hard to believe.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 24, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> The lawyers will have a field day with this one. It was said today it my take even years to finalize the investigation. I find that very hard to believe.


I find it hard to believe, too.


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## win231 (Jun 24, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Or never architecturally sound in the first place.


That's what I was thinking.  No earthquake, no hurricane, no tornado & a building just collapses?  Maybe remodeling without permits or bribes to Dept. of Building & Safety.


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## Tish (Jun 24, 2021)

Prayers to everyone in this heartbreaking situation.


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## Lewkat (Jun 25, 2021)

One wonders if the fact of the President of Paraguay's family members staying here had anything to do with this?


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## hollydolly (Jun 25, 2021)

*A report last year revealed the 12-story condo building that killed one person and left 99 missing when it collapsed on Thursday was sinking and possibly in dangerous condition before the horrific event - sparking questions if the tragedy could have been prevented and how to prevent similar collapses in the future. 

Authorities have not yet determined what caused the building to collapse and Miami-Dade police have opened an investigation - though Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said 'there has been no evidence found of foul play.' 

The report, from last year, was uncovered as it was also revealed that recent construction work on the the roof could have triggered the collapse - and that the building was due to have its safety recertified in just months.   

Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, told USA Today that he knew instantly which building had collapsed when he heard news reports because he had studied the building for the report published last year.

'I looked at it this morning and said 'Oh my god.' We did detect that,' he said. 

His study was part of a wider look at how buildings in Miami were sinking generally with rising sea levels caused by climate change.    

The Champlain Towers South sea-view condo development was built in 1981 by the late developer Nathan Reiber's company Nattel Construction at 8777 Collins Avenue in the southeast corner of Surfside, but the structure hasn't been updated significantly since then.
*
_https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...led-year-ago-12-story-condo-SINKING-risk.html_


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## Pappy (Jun 25, 2021)

If, God forbid, it was terrorist, I find it hard to believe that they only took down part of the building. It seems like they would go for the whole building.


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## Happyflowerlady (Jun 25, 2021)

Pappy said:


> If, God forbid, it was terrorist, I find it hard to believe that they only took down part of the building. It seems like they would go for the whole building.


This would not be the first time that a building or a plane load of people were killed just because some terrorists were trying to kill one person. 
As @Lewkat mentioned, authorities are talking about the family for the President of Paraguay having been in the condo, and so far, no trace has been found of them. With the building collapsing straight down like a demolition, it is going to be a while before they can find people under there.  

Hopefully, some might survive, like a few did after the Twin Towers collapse. 
If they wanted to take the building down, they probably would have done that; but if they just wanted to get particular people, and they knew where they were, then taking out half of the building would let the people involved know that it was deliberate. 

Since only half disintegrated and fell, and the other half was fine, the theory that it was structure unsoundness that caused it , is not altogether plausible.


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## hollydolly (Jun 25, 2021)

See my post above ^^^I think that's the most likely scenario


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## Happyflowerlady (Jun 25, 2021)

Just an interesting little thing that I was just reading about this condo building. It turns out that John McAfee also had a condo in that building.
So, last year, he had threatened to bring down some of the people who are running the human trafficking rings , three days after that he was arrested.
He told everyone that if it looked like he committed suicide, that he didn’t, and people are speculating that he might have had a “dead man’s switch “ in place if he were murdered/suicided.
It is possible that he also had information in the condo that the deep state did not want to come out.
We may never hear the real truth, but I am glad that it is being looked into.


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## mrstime (Jun 25, 2021)

As of today 4 dead, and 159 people unaccounted for. So so sad.


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 25, 2021)

Such a tragedy, I wonder what caused that to happen.  Rest in peace to all who lost their lives, my sympathy to the victims and their families.


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## Chet (Jun 25, 2021)

A pedestrian bridge collapsed in 2018 in Sweetwater Florida which is close to Miami according to the map. What's going on down there?


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## Don M. (Jun 26, 2021)

Chet said:


> A pedestrian bridge collapsed in 2018 in Sweetwater Florida which is close to Miami according to the map. What's going on down there?



This may be an early sign of what the future holds for seaside properties.  The oceans are rising, and there is little that can be done to stop it.  Anything built near the shorelines, on porous ground will begin to be at increasing risk of this kind of destruction as the ground becomes more saturated, and begins to give way.  Forecasts for the future all say that the US will lose at least 15% of its land mass due to rising oceans, and Florida, and most of the Gulf and Eastern seaboards will be history in another 100 years, or so.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 26, 2021)

Don M. said:


> This may be an early sign of what the future holds for seaside properties.  The oceans are rising, and there is little that can be done to stop it.  Anything built near the shorelines, on porous ground will begin to be at increasing risk of this kind of destruction as the ground becomes more saturated, and begins to give way.  Forecasts for the future all say that the US will lose at least 15% of its land mass due to rising oceans, and Florida, and most of the Gulf and Eastern seaboards will be history in another 100 years, or so.


Extract from the web:

"_The Earth is currently undergoing a climate change of historic proportion, with sea levels rising noticeably from the melting of glaciers and icebergs. If the trend continues, the Maldives will be completely submerged in 30 years_".


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## SeaBreeze (Jun 26, 2021)

Did anyone see the flashes of light at the top of the building when it started to crash down?  Did anyone on the news ever say what that was?

Info about the building construction.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ctural-damage-engineers-report-surfside-miami

Photos:
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...tion-wrought-by-the-florida-building-collapse


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 26, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> Did anyone see the flashes of light at the top of the building when it started to crash down?  Did anyone on the news ever say what that was?
> 
> Info about the building construction.
> https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ctural-damage-engineers-report-surfside-miami
> ...


Both hubby and I seen multiple flashes, SeaBreeze, with the last flash approx. mid way up the last of the condos before they, too, collapsed.

Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?


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## Don M. (Jun 27, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> Did anyone see the flashes of light at the top of the building when it started to crash down?  Did anyone on the news ever say what that was?



Photos of that building, before the collapse, show numerous large electrical boxes....probably Air Conditioning units...mounted on the rooftop.  When the collapse began, there were probably a bunch of electrical "shorts" and flashes, as the wiring for these units was ripped apart, and "flashed".

https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8729206,-80.1208844,75m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m3!15m2!1m1!1s/g/11nnz9k0zs


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 27, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Photos of that building, before the collapse, show numerous large electrical boxes....probably Air Conditioning units...mounted on the rooftop.  When the collapse began, there were probably a bunch of electrical "shorts" and flashes, as the wiring for these units was ripped apart, and "flashed".
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8729206,-80.1208844,75m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m3!15m2!1m1!1s/g/11nnz9k0zs


Excellent point, Don.


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## Happyflowerlady (Jun 27, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Extract from the web:
> 
> "_The Earth is currently undergoing a climate change of historic proportion, with sea levels rising noticeably from the melting of glaciers and icebergs. If the trend continues, the Maldives will be completely submerged in 30 years_".


This has been said for some time now, but seems not to be actually happening.  Glacier Park in Montana said that the glacier would be melted by 2020, but when it was still there, they had to remove the sign.
http://lysanderspooneruniversity.co...-park-quietly-removes-its-gone-by-2020-signs/

Here is one of the many pictures showing that the ocean level has not risen as much as they are saying.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 27, 2021)

Happyflowerlady said:


> This has been said for some time now, but seems not to be actually happening.  Glacier Park in Montana said that the glacier would be melted by 2020, but when it was still there, they had to remove the sign.
> http://lysanderspooneruniversity.co...-park-quietly-removes-its-gone-by-2020-signs/
> 
> Here is one of the many pictures showing that the ocean level has not risen as much as they are saying.
> ...


Very interesting, Happyflowerlady.

Must say this comes as a total shock to me.

I can't help but think about Venice Italy and other areas/countries.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 27, 2021)

Don M. said:


> This may be an early sign of what the future holds for seaside properties.  The oceans are rising, and there is little that can be done to stop it.  Anything built near the shorelines, on porous ground will begin to be at increasing risk of this kind of destruction as the ground becomes more saturated, and begins to give way.  Forecasts for the future all say that the US will lose at least 15% of its land mass due to rising oceans, and Florida, and most of the Gulf and Eastern seaboards will be history in another 100 years, or so.


I don't think it's as much as rising oceans as they going where they used to be. A lot of south Florida ie beach front is built on what used a smattering of rocks, ponds, holes etc filled in to build anything from roads to buildings. Most areas like this have the ocean on one side and a bay/water way on the other. Alot of the beaches have needed a continuous supply of sand pumped on to it for decades they're that artificial. Alot of Dade County where building is needs pump stations like New Orleans being at sea level with a lot of rain/storms.

Are people building too close to the beach maybe. Are they being realistic if they think they can avoid a catastrophic event like this, a hurricane or the effects of intense moisture and heavy rain year round absolutely not.


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## RadishRose (Jun 27, 2021)

I'm just skeptical of this source not the glacier activity.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...elt-Denying-University-Professor-and-Attorney

"*Now, we were curious about Lysander Spooner University, which Roots apparently founded. Turns out it’s not exactly a university, but more of “a libertarian blog.” It does, apparently, have classes, including a course on “Government Myths and Lies about Climate Change.” It was held last year “in the sidewalk area in front of” a coffee shop.*"


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## Oris Borloff (Jun 27, 2021)

Happyflowerlady said:


> This has been said for some time now, but seems not to be actually happening.  Glacier Park in Montana said that the glacier would be melted by 2020, but when it was still there, they had to remove the sign.
> http://lysanderspooneruniversity.co...-park-quietly-removes-its-gone-by-2020-signs/
> 
> Here is one of the many pictures showing that the ocean level has not risen as much as they are saying.
> ...


Just my observation:  The 2018 photo shows a water mark above the water level-photo was taken at low tide?  No such water line is visible in the 1878 photo.  By itself this doesn't mean anything, but what time were each of these pictures taken?  I haven't read the article yet I'm only basing this on looking at the photos.


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## Alligatorob (Jun 27, 2021)

I am not expert, but I am a civil engineer who knows a little bit about Florida building practices, and all I can say is I am just surprised this doesn't happen more often...  

Sure hope those missing folks are found alive, but I know that's unlikely for most...


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## win231 (Jun 27, 2021)

I knew it had something to do with money:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/building-collapse-million-repairs-needed-78518874


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## Robert59 (Jun 27, 2021)

Florida family gets 16 calls from grandparents who remain unaccounted for in condo collapse.​
Clinging to a sliver of hope in the Surfside condo tower collapse, one family says it has received 16 calls from a landline belonging to their grandparents, who are among the 156 unaccounted for as rescuers continue to search the rubble.

Arnie and Myriam Notkin lived on the third floor in the south wing of the 12-story building that inexplicably collapsed early Thursday morning. 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-16-calls-missing-grandparents-condo-collapse-champlain-towers


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## WhatInThe (Jun 27, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> Did anyone see the flashes of light at the top of the building when it started to crash down?  Did anyone on the news ever say what that was?
> 
> Info about the building construction.
> https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ctural-damage-engineers-report-surfside-miami
> ...


Looking at the concrete spall or peeling/dropping chunks. Even though neglect that's the outside of the building which could lead to running water making to the foundation over time but even then that wouldn't that be the outside or outer edge support.

 When you look at the photos of the collapse it looks too even which could mean a large area foundation area or support failures at once or cascading fashion. Also wouldn't a 'peeling' or partial collapse occur first.

Too me there are just too many buildings built around that time and before that would've failed before. There's something unique here it could be faulty materials, construction or the right combination of factors.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 27, 2021)

Having worked in industrial construction I don't understand the "slicing" collapse. I believe in commercial construction the buildings are erected by floors. There this looks impossible to happen. An uneducated guess would be someone switched the types of concrete at some point with the collapsed section being the different type. Has anyone seen an interview with a construction engineer or architect yet? I have not.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 27, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Photos of that building, before the collapse, show numerous large electrical boxes....probably Air Conditioning units...mounted on the rooftop.  When the collapse began, there were probably a bunch of electrical "shorts" and flashes, as the wiring for these units was ripped apart, and "flashed".
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8729206,-80.1208844,75m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m3!15m2!1m1!1s/g/11nnz9k0zs


Hence the fires mixed in with the fallen debris.


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## AnnieA (Jun 27, 2021)

It was never safe to build high rise condos on barrier islands and it was known at the time of Surfside's construction in the 1981.  The sand and mud composition of barrier islands shift.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-experts-say-barrier-islands-present-n1272316

Excerpt: * (Emphasis mine)*

Another issue at hand for the Surfside community is one shared with all of Miami Beach: The towns are built on a barrier island. Climate scientists and geologists have long warned that these islands cannot be developed responsibly. *They are made of a loose mixture of sand and mud* and provide a natural protection for the shoreline.​​“These are very dynamic features. We didn’t understand that *these islands actually migrate until the 1970s*,” said Orrin Pilkey, a professor emeritus of geology at Duke University who has long studied sea-level rise and the over-development of the coast. “As sea level rises, they move back.”​


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## Jules (Jun 27, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Has anyone seen an interview with a construction engineer or architect yet?


40 years ago.  If they’re lucky, they’re deceased.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 27, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> It was never safe to build high rise condos on barrier islands and it was known at the time of Surfside's construction in the 1981.  The sand and mud composition of barrier islands shift.
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-experts-say-barrier-islands-present-n1272316
> 
> ...


I can see more jettys coming now. I know road or bayside alot of that area is on or near lots of rock. Wonder how much they had to level or fill in that area. They say landfill was used to fill alot of that in. Not sure what landfill was back in the 1920s although most from bottom of a bay.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia...Fisher and,Venetian Islands except Belle Isle.


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## Alligatorob (Jun 27, 2021)

Jules said:


> 40 years ago.  If they’re lucky, they’re deceased.


Hey, I was a practicing engineer in the 80s, and still kicking.  But I get your point, no one would want the burden of knowing they contributed to something like this.

It seems like to me the failure is probably related to foundation failure due to settlement, either built on soft sediments or a sink hole.  Buildings can be safely engineered and built in this environment, but it takes money, and not many developers want to spend any more than the bare minimum.  It is still early, and possible some other cause will  be found, I am just speculating...


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## fmdog44 (Jun 27, 2021)

Early comments said the building was sinking at a rate of 1mm (.039") per year. My first question for how many years?  I'm not convinced it was foundation related. I'm sticking with my materials theory.


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## Alligatorob (Jun 28, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> the building was sinking at a rate of 1mm (.039") per year


That is a lot, ~1.6 inches in its ~40 year lifetime.  However not enough alone to cause failure, especially if it was uniform.  Differential settlement is the problem.


fmdog44 said:


> I'm sticking with my materials theory


Maybe, too early to know.  I am only speculating based on a couple of structural failures I have been involved with (after the fact) in south Florida.  And a little understanding of the geotechnical issues on Miami Beach.  Not on any real knowledge, none in this particular case. 

As the investigation proceeds we should be able to figure it out, but that will take time...


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2021)

Jules said:


> 40 years ago.  If they’re lucky, they’re deceased.


Apparently one of the original developers died in 2014. He was accussed of bribing local politicians to get the permit for the building ok'd. There was a freeze on building in that area in 1979 due to sewer issues.  He was accussed of similar things in Canada.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...viously-accused-PAYING-officials-permits.html


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## Buckeye (Jun 28, 2021)

With each passing day, the hopes of finding any survivors in the ruble are greatly diminished.  My heart aches for the families of those poor "unaccounted for" souls.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 28, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> With each passing day, the hopes of finding any survivors in the ruble are greatly diminished.  My heart aches for the families of those poor "unaccounted for" souls.


I view it as a recovery effort now, nothing more.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2021)

Saw one interview where some family members are angry more debris isn't being removed to find survivors. They were told it's too dangerous for rescuers. 

The only hope is that it wasn't as full as they think.

RIP


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## Alligatorob (Jun 28, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> bribing local politicians to get the permit for the building oked


No surprise there...


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## Gaer (Jun 28, 2021)

Evidently, the 1918 building inspector report shoed crumbling concrete and exposed rebar.  
Doesn't that call for immediate close down of the building and immediate evacuation?  
There always seems to be water seepage in oceanfront properties.  Were shortcuts used in the construction?
 There will be so many lawsuits from this
Who takes responsibility/  The architect? the contractor?  the sub-contractors?  the building inspector?
This is such a sad and preventable occurrence. My heart goes out to the loved ones.


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## Jules (Jun 28, 2021)

@Gaer Responsibility will probably be on everyone you listed plus the Strata Council.  One article I read said they delayed making a decision for repairs for 18 months.  This could have been because of needing agreement for the $15 million from the owners.  Owners had to pay between $80K to $300K


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> No surprise there...


I just can't help but think that might be one of those construction projects used to launder drug money because that was the cocaine era. Since the developer had tax issues have to wonder if was trying to launder money for himself or others thus the need for speed.


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## Elsie (Jun 28, 2021)

SmoothSeas said:


> cities built below sea-level. towering buildings built on sand...
> 
> one pauses to wonder, where has human ingenuity gone adrift...


Almost exactly what I was thinking.


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## win231 (Jun 28, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> With each passing day, the hopes of finding any survivors in the ruble are greatly diminished.  My heart aches for the families of those poor "unaccounted for" souls.


Even if someone survived the initial collapse (which is unlikely), there would be no way to breathe.  Each breath would include dust, plaster, smoke, whatever is in broken sewer pipes & who knows what else.  That's assuming no serious injuries (also unlikely).
The survivors would envy the dead.


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## Alligatorob (Jun 29, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I'm sticking with my materials theory


As I see more I think you may be at least partially right.  The "clean" collapse and reports of structural problems before the collapse...

I have also heard reports that a lot of other buildings in the area, and of the same age, are exhibiting similar problems.  Not too surprising, but worrisome.  Might soon be a good time to find a bargain on a Miami Beach condo!  Well maybe a bargain, kind of depends on what happens to these places.  Something was different about this one, that or the others are just about to go, hopefully that gets figured out quickly.  I would hope this building had some very unique problem, not found in others, but I kind of doubt that is the case...

My best poorly supported guess at this point is some combination of poor materials and deterioration, coupled with some kind of foundation settlement.  Not unusual for something like this to have several contributing causes.  I am sure we will be hearing more about this in the not to distant future.


win231 said:


> Even if someone survived the initial collapse (which is unlikely), there would be no way to breathe. Each breath would include dust, plaster, smoke, whatever is in broken sewer pipes & who knows what else. That's assuming no serious injuries (also unlikely).
> The survivors would envy the dead.


I suspect very few people survived the initial collapse, I believe (and hope) most met a quick and painless death, not knowing what was happening.  I do still, of course, hope that survivors will be found, but that is seeming less and less likely as time goes along.  At this point I suspect the only remaining "survivors" amongst the missing are those who were out of town and out of communication.


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## helenbacque (Jun 29, 2021)

The condo HOA owns the buildings and common areas and is responsible for seeing that appropriate and timely repairs & maintenance happens. These are often delayed in an effort to keep dues lower.  A healthy HOA will keep a large reserve (like a homeowner's savings account) but the reserve is often robbed to keep dues lower.  Owners who elect uninformed, irresponsible or self-serving members to serve on their boards are asking for trouble.  Serving on the Board of Directors is a job few want.  It's often volunteers who serve.

As this shakes out, I would be interested in knowing what liability the HOA Board of Directors might have.  Is there insurance to provide protection from poor performance?


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## WhatInThe (Jun 29, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> The condo HOA owns the buildings and common areas and is responsible for seeing that appropriate and timely repairs & maintenance happens. These are often delayed in an effort to keep dues lower.  A healthy HOA will keep a large reserve (like a homeowner's savings account) but the reserve is often robbed to keep dues lower.  Owners who elect uninformed, irresponsible or self-serving members to serve on their boards are asking for trouble.  Serving on the Board of Directors is a job few want.  It's often volunteers who serve.
> 
> As this shakes out, I would be interested in knowing what liability the HOA Board of Directors might have.  Is there insurance to provide protection from poor performance?


This is how they keep the purchase price low or still attract buyers with lower dues. This is the dirty little secret of condo living.

 It hurts those who purchases decades ago because they probably has reasonable maintenance fees. I lived near a brand new condo built right before the boom. Average unit under $200k and monthly maintenance under $300, less than 5 years later at the peak of the boom average unit $400K-$700k and $700 a month maintenance along with water issues(in a new building) AND a missing Canadian developer (The collapsed building also had a Canadian developer with issues. I digress)

There should be somekind of insurance, a bond or service plan that could cover repairs like these rather than tap or accumulate a budget.  My guess if these realtors and property managers/owners were upfront and prepared for issues like this no one would be buying units in their buildings.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 29, 2021)

This morning there was this story. A young women was on the phone with her husband telling him she just saw the swimming pool collapse in a sink hole then her phone went dead. There are already three class action lawsuits filed by lawyers with grey slimy skin.


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## Alligatorob (Jun 29, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> As this shakes out, I would be interested in knowing what liability the HOA Board of Directors might have.


In this case many of them may now be dead, paid the ultimate liability...


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## Jules (Jun 29, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> I would be interested in knowing what liability the HOA Board of Directors might have. Is there insurance to provide protection from poor performance?


In Canada there is insurance for the volunteers on a HOA/strata.

There was an article that said the other tower was run by a different Board of Directors.  They dealt with there problems as soon as they were reported.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 30, 2021)

Workers have now removed more than *3 million pounds* of debris from the site, just to give people an idea of the colossal amount of debris left to clean up, and the sheer amount of weight that's resting on those who were taken when the building collapsed.

I don't support news reports continuing down the path of, "_workers are still holding out hope of finding survivors_".

We're into day 7 on this, this has moved well past the stage of finding survivors now.


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## Don M. (Jun 30, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> We're into day 7 on this, this has moved well past the stage of finding survivors now.



That's right....there is virtually NO chance of finding anyone still alive under this debris.  Even if someone survived the initial crash, they would have suffered a miserable and lingering death, by now.  There was even reports of fires in the debris, a few days ago, and the fire departments had to spray huge amounts if water into the pile to quench the fires....anyone trapped there would have drowned.  

Now, the biggest danger is to the workers who are removing the debris....they face risk of getting caught in shifting concrete, etc.  It may be weeks before all the rubble and human remains are removed.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> That's right....there is virtually NO chance of finding anyone still alive under this debris.  Even if someone survived the initial crash, they would have suffered a miserable and lingering death, by now.  There was even reports of fires in the debris, a few days ago, and the fire departments had to spray huge amounts if water into the pile to quench the fires....anyone trapped there would have drowned.
> 
> Now, the biggest danger is to the workers who are removing the debris....they face risk of getting caught in shifting concrete, etc.  It may be weeks before all the rubble and human remains are removed.


Yes indeed, Don. To think about the fires that were burning under the rubble, the smoke, the heat, the wet, the clouds of dust and particulate and debris in the air... that alone would have been suffocating.

Do you have any thoughts on what's going to happen to the rest of the building that's still standing?

My thought from day one has been, they are going to raze it.


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## Don M. (Jun 30, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Do you have any thoughts on what's going to happen to the rest of the building that's still standing?  My thought from day one has been, they are going to raze it.



The rest of that building will Certainly have to be removed, once any remaining bodies are found.  It apparently has had reports of problems in the past...which seem to have been ignored.  There are similar structures nearby, which also might require some Serious inspection for equally serious problems. 

Construction in these types of areas needs to be far better monitored and regulated.  Building Anything in such an area, which consists of little other than sand, and a base of porous Limestone underneath, is just asking for trouble in the future.


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## Aunt Marg (Jun 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> The rest of that building will Certainly have to be removed, once any remaining bodies are found.  It apparently has had reports of problems in the past...which seem to have been ignored.  There are similar structures nearby, which also might require some Serious inspection for equally serious problems.
> 
> Construction in these types of areas needs to be far better monitored and regulated.  Building Anything in such an area, which consists of little other than sand, and a base of porous Limestone underneath, is just asking for trouble in the future.


I agree with all wholeheartedly.

Shame on regulations surrounding the inspection of building sites.

IMO any building that requires a $15 Million price tag to repair should be shuttered.


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## Chet (Jun 30, 2021)

That is a grisly task they are doing. Those bodies should be in a state of decomposition in that Florida heat as well as mangled. There will be cases of PTSD when it's over.


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## win231 (Jun 30, 2021)

This morning, they showed video from several months ago of the cracked foundation & terrible condition of the building's frame.  Of course the owners decided it was too costly to repair.


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## Tom 86 (Jun 30, 2021)

Our noon news showed a picture an electrical contractor took when he was in the basement a week before & gave it to the authorities showing big cracks in the cement & rebar sticking out of the cement also.  Still, no one did anything about it????


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## Remy (Jun 30, 2021)

Anyone think there could have been misappropriation of monthly condo fees? I don't know, but I'll bet the owners paid plenty a month. They were going to add a 15 million dollar assessment on these people. What the... I know there is ongoing maintenance with a building like that but there should also have been money in an account. And a good amount of it.

Those poor souls and families. I agree, rescue now is futile. It's recovery only now for the families, so they know when their family members have been found.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I don't support news reports continuing down the path of, "_workers are still holding out hope of finding survivors_".
> 
> We're into day 7 on this, this has moved well past the stage of finding survivors now.


I agree the odds of finding a survivor in the rubble are pretty low at this point, but not zero so they need to continue to try.  I had a friend who survived the bombing of Dresden, he said survivors were found months after the fact, not many but a few.  Folks trapped in basements with access to some food and water, but no way out.  Different of course.

We have a lot to be thinking about with respect to construction of this kind.  I don't think we should be doing much construction at all on these barrier islands, let alone these high rise structures.  Beaches are probably best visited, not lived on, spoken as a person who lived in a beach house for a long time...

One problem is our whole federally backed flood insurance, without that much of this development would not be possible, financing would be much harder to get.  It was the advent of such insurance ~50 years ago that lead to much of the coastal building boom.  And it has cost all of us a lot of money.  Poor standards and corrupt building inspections are just symptoms of the problem...


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I agree the odds of finding a survivor in the rubble are pretty low at this point, but not zero so they need to continue to try.  I had a friend who survived the bombing of Dresden, he said survivors were found months after the fact, not many but a few.  Folks trapped in basements with access to some food and water, but no way out.  Different of course.
> 
> We have a lot to be thinking about with respect to construction of this kind.  I don't think we should be doing much construction at all on these barrier islands, let alone these high rise structures.  Beaches are probably best visited, not lived on, spoken as a person who lived in a beach house for a long time...
> 
> One problem is our whole federally backed flood insurance, without that much of this development would not be possible, financing would be much harder to get.  It was the advent of such insurance ~50 years ago that lead to much of the coastal building boom.  And it has cost all of us a lot of money.  Poor standards and corrupt building inspections are just symptoms of the problem...


What a happy story related to your friend.

I was viewing some images last night related to all of the rubble, and the best way I would describe it to someone who hasn't seen the aftermath, is the rubble looks as though it was poured out in liquid form, then it hardened.

It's a sickening sight. I cannot imagine how upsetting it must be to have to pull bodies out. I couldn't do it.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 1, 2021)

New video of water leaking in garage with debris on ground minutes before collapse. 

https://nypost.com/2021/06/30/video...garage-moments-before-florida-condo-collapse/

Was the collapse in it's final stages or did that leak cause the collapse.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 1, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> New video of water leaking in garage with debris on ground minutes before collapse.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2021/06/30/video...garage-moments-before-florida-condo-collapse/
> 
> Was the collapse in it's final stages or did that leak cause the collapse.


It's my understanding that the pool foundation gave way, leading to the building collapsing.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 1, 2021)

As of today, Thursday July 1, 2021, search efforts have been halted due to safety concerns for the workers.


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## Jules (Jul 1, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As of today, Thursday July 1, 2021, search efforts have been halted due to safety concerns for the workers.


Good.  They can‘t chance more numbers being added to the death toll.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 1, 2021)

In my "expert opinion", I noticed that part of the building looks like it had been sheared off by a knife. The other section looks like what you would expect,- floors partially ripped away from the walls. You really have to let a concrete and steel building go before it collapses. I doubt a leaky swimming pool was the total culprit. That sheared section does not show floor bracing, You don't see any area where the floor beams were attached to the walls???? I wonder if wasn't just poor construction, and it's a wonder the building hadn't collapsed years ago. I had a contractor fix my home, and he hired extremely questionable subcontractors, who didn't know what the hell they were supposed to do.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 1, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> In my "expert opinion", I noticed that part of the building looks like it had been sheared off by a knife. The other section looks like what you would expect,- floors partially ripped away from the walls. You really have to let a concrete and steel building go before it collapses. I doubt a leaky swimming pool was the total culprit. That sheared section does not show floor bracing, You don't see any area where the floor beams were attached to the walls???? I wonder if wasn't just poor construction, and it's a wonder the building hadn't collapsed years ago. I had a contractor fix my home, and he hired extremely questionable subcontractors, who didn't know what the hell they were supposed to do.


I'm not holding a lot of hope over the idea that we'll ever know the honest-to-goodness truth.


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## Don M. (Jul 1, 2021)

I saw a report today that said this condo had about 48 million $'s in insurance.  That won't even begin to cover the damage, and the upcoming lawsuits.  Now, there are reports that some of the rescue workers are starting to have respiratory troubles...similar to the workers after the WTC was attacked.   This mess just gets deeper with every passing day.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 1, 2021)

Don M. said:


> the upcoming lawsuits


Do we know anything about who is suing who and for what?  It seems to me there may not be many good targets.  The HOA belonged to and was controlled by the owners, the victims, hard to sue yourself.  I suspect the original developer and contractors are long gone, and maybe protected by statute of limitation things.  That doesn't leave much, the local building department for corruption/incompetence maybe?

I think we are likely to know the truth, or a pretty close version of it, as to the technical reasons, what went wrong structurally.  It may take some time though. 

Figuring out why mistakes were made and who might be to blame on the other hand will likely never be completely clear.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 2, 2021)

Judge says land under the site will have to be sold to compensate victims.​
Surfside Condo Collapse: Plans Are In The Works To Demolish Building.​
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2021/07/02/surfside-condo-collapse-demolish-building-death-toll-18/


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## Pepper (Jul 2, 2021)

Just was watching CBS news and a condo owner said "We lost Everything".  No, not when you still have your life................just imagine, sir.


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## helenbacque (Jul 2, 2021)

When the original buildings were completed and sold, the construction company takes their money and runs.  But before doing so, they will have set the complex up to be self-managed through a Home Owner's Association (HOA) and will transfer ownership of the buildings and common areas such as elevators, pool, etc.  to the HOA.   Each individual owner owns and maintains what is within the walls of their unit and - as an owner - also owns a tiny portion of the buildings and common areas and is therefore responsible for upkeep.  

The owners then  elect - from within the membership - a Board of Directors and it is this body that has the responsibility of setting the amount of monthly dues and directing the operation, management, repairs and maintenance of the buildings and common areas of the complex.  The Board can hire a management company to oversee day to day operations or hire and oversee its own maintenance crew.

The original builders will have set up a Reserve fund that is to be used for major maintenance and replacement of items such as roof, elevator, etc.   ( Think of it as a separate savings account that you might keep to replace things such as washer, refrigerator, AC etc. )  Continuing expenses such as day to day operation (electric bill, maintenance staff, insurance, routine R & M) is paid through monthly dues.  As the Reserve fund is depleted, it is the job of the Board to keep it funded by raising the dues as needed.  If the Reserve is not fully funded and a necessary repair happens, the Board of Directors must levy an assessment to cover costs.    

Serving on an HOA Board of Directors is a thankless and unpaid job and few want it.   Owners in a complex often look at the Board as the enemy because " they keep wanting to raise my dues".  Keeping dues low trumps protecting the investment.  It's the same thing as a person who owns a house and refuses to maintain it because of the expense.  There are basic rules and regulations but each individual Board decides how the money is spent.  They can buy new pool furniture and repaint the tennis court every year or they can save to replace the rotten pilings on which the building sits.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 3, 2021)

Some including the boards, forums and misc 'news' sources seem to be pointing toward a leaking pool that wasn't pitched right to allow for adequate drainage. Once the pool collapsed the rest of the building/section collapsed.

In the meantime several hundred families will have to find a place to live in a tight/expensive real estate market. Again the dirty little secret about condo living is yes without repair and maintenance they were affordable in south Florida. And they industry got lucky with a couple of generations of condo owners not having to deal with massive repair bills. This is how many a unit went from $50K-$200K to $400K to $700K during the first boom.

Last time I heard of an evacuation an old high rise hotel that was converted to apartments around the boom had to be renovated because hotel room didn't have the electric for full size refrigerators, microwaves, stoves, ovens etc. That was almost 2 decades ago and last I checked I think there still some suits on that. That was Dade County/Miami Beach area as well.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 3, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Some including the boards, forums and misc 'news' sources seem to be pointing toward a leaking pool that wasn't pitched right to allow for adequate drainage. Once the pool collapsed the rest of the building/section collapsed.
> 
> In the meantime several hundred families will have to find a place to live in a tight/expensive real estate market. Again the dirty little secret about condo living is yes without repair and maintenance they were affordable in south Florida. And they industry got lucky with a couple of generations of condo owners not having to deal with massive repair bills. This is how many a unit went from $50K-$200K to $400K to $700K during the first boom.
> 
> Last time I heard of an evacuation an old high rise hotel that was converted to apartments around the boom had to be renovated because hotel room didn't have the electrice for full size refrigerators, microwaves, stoves, ovens etc. That was almost 2 decades ago and last a check I think there still some suits on that. That was Dade County/Miami Beach area as well.


My husband met a gentleman a number of years back, shortly after the 2008 market crash. The man purchased a condo for $25,000, a condo that just a few years earlier was valued in and around the high 100's/low 200's.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 3, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> My husband met a gentleman a number of years back, shortly after the 2008 market crash. The man purchased a condo for $25,000, a condo that just a few years earlier was valued in and around the high 100's/low 200's.


I know someone similar but opposite. They purchased the condo for 60kish in the 1990s. During the first bubble tenants were getting unsolicited offers over 200K. After a pair of hurricanes went through those offers went away. Things got so insane developers were making offers on unused portions of big national store parking lots to build condos/apartments.

Condo's made south Florida beach area living affordable for a while. But investors escalated prices to insane levels. Those hurt the most are the retirees or those on a limited income because they were able to buy into the condo cheap assuming they would only have pay taxes and some basic maintenance.

Early in the first boom European buyers/investors were driving prices. Ironically many a new condo developement in the Miami was vacant having trouble getting to 50% occupancy.


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 3, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> I know someone similar but opposite. They purchased the condo for 60kish in the 1990s. During the first bubble tenants were getting unsolicited offers over 200K. After a pair of hurricanes went through those offers went away. Things got so insane developers were making offers on unused portions of big national store parking lots to build condos/apartments.
> 
> Condo's made south Florida beach area living affordable for a while. But investors escalated prices to insane levels. Those hurt the most are the retirees or those on a limited income because they were able to buy into the condo cheap assuming they would only have pay taxes and some basic maintenance.
> 
> Early in the first boom European buyers/investors were driving prices. Ironically many a new condo developement in the Miami was vacant having trouble getting to 50% occupancy.


I can honestly say I will never again look at high rise living the same ever again.

I don't even care to visit a high rise building again.


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## hollydolly (Jul 3, 2021)




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## Don M. (Jul 3, 2021)

This condo collapse may just be the beginning of what the Future of Florida looks like.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hardest-florida-condo-collapse-worth-132700046.html


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## Aunt Marg (Jul 12, 2021)

Death toll reaches 94...

Miami Dade County Court House closed account signs of advanced deterioration...


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## rgp (Jul 12, 2021)

Don M. said:


> This condo collapse may just be the beginning of what the Future of Florida looks like.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/hardest-florida-condo-collapse-worth-132700046.html



 Gotta admit, it's hard to get my mind around Miami being under water in 30 years ?! ........ 130 years ? yeah well maybe but 30? 

 Let's see ......... I'll be 102 so ....... not a worry for me, but for those younger I hope it all works out.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 18, 2021)

Apparently one of the inspecting engineers missed the lack of rebar/reinforcement on a project he inspected a few years prior in Coral Cables south of this collapse.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/...0210718-m6ogb77fjfhmpnvzbro3crs4ue-story.html

Now the deceased victims identies are being stolen with criminals opening up credit card accounts.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/...le-victims-killed-in-surfside-condo-collapse/

Fraud technique called ghosting including use of obituary information. I've been leary about what my family has put in obits for years because the surviving family is at risk. This is also what makes many of the ancestry or family tree sites very dangerous.


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## Jules (Jul 18, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Fraud technique called ghosting including use of obituary information. I've been leary about what my family has put in obits for years because the surviving family is at risk. This is also what makes many of the ancestry or family tree sites very dangerous.


Interesting info.  Thanks.


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## Paco Dennis (Jul 18, 2021)

Cutting corners because of making more money ( money=time ), is a recipe for accidents, some become disasters.


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