# GREECE... is this the beginng of the end for the Euro... and the EU???



## Elyzabeth (Feb 1, 2015)

If it gives up on the Euro, and they return to the Drachma...
people will be lining up to get in and spend their Money in Greece...

THE EU is basically an unelected dictatorship, way overstepping what it should be doing..
how much fish we can catch,
what voltage of vacuum cleaners we can have and MORE..

Next up how powerful our hair dryers and coffee pots can be...

unbelievable , but true !


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## hollydolly (Feb 1, 2015)

I agree with you Elyzabeth the rules and regs we have to follow because of EU directive is a disgrace and almost laughable. 

As for Greece it's a worry for all of us in Europe as to which way this new Government will take them, hopefully it won't be to the rest of Europes' expense both metaphorically and financially.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 1, 2015)

I think the EU was a bad idea gone worse. It never should have happened.


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## Debby (Feb 1, 2015)

Well maybe they looked at the example of Iceland who refused to knuckle under to the IMF and all the fear mongering, threw a few bankers in jail, let some banks fail (I think???) and today are doing better.

Now I haven't been following the whole EU/IMF debacle in detail, but weren't they handing loans over to Greece even when the country is already insolvent?  If they already had massive debt and resulting problems, does it make sense to keep giving them more money?  Or was all of that simply how the rich in the EU/IMF/ECB get hold of Greeces assets?  Sometimes bankruptcy can be a better way to go I think.  Pay off what can be paid off, write off the rest and start fresh but with new awareness and understanding of how things should be done financially.


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## hollydolly (Feb 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I think the EU was a bad idea gone worse. It never should have happened.



Absolutely agree with you


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## oakapple (Feb 1, 2015)

I agree HollyDolly, and hope we will get the chance to vote against it [if the promised referendum ever happens.]It was never meant to go the way it has [the EU]. You are correct Debby, and Greece should never have been in the EU all along, they were never ready for it  in the first place.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 1, 2015)

One problem is that we don't get the opportunity to vote on
 the things that matter in the UK...

Except maybe as an olive branch, with which to buy your vote.


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## Debby (Feb 1, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I agree HollyDolly, and hope we will get the chance to vote against it [if the promised referendum ever happens.]It was never meant to go the way it has [the EU]. You are correct Debby, and Greece should never have been in the EU all along, they were never ready for it  in the first place.




I think I read yesterday that there are three or four other countries looking at Greeces move with interest.  Latvia was one, and I believe Spain had a big protest about the austerity measures being imposed by the IMF and the whole political system.  Hungary?  Was that one?  Hmmm, just drawing a blank even though I was reading about it yesterday evening.  Oh well, it will come to me later I'm sure.

Here's a photo of the Spanish protest.  Definitely not just a few irritable people!  Streets look pretty packed.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 1, 2015)

I admit to not having followed the history of the EU..   I would imagine it was thought that liberal trade with one currency created an advantage.. I would appreciate being educated on it..  someone fill me in.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 1, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> If it gives up on the Euro, and they return to the Drachma...
> people will be lining up to get in and spend their Money in Greece...
> 
> THE EU is basically an unelected dictatorship, way overstepping what it should be doing..
> ...



I agree, one size does not fit all. Someone will get squeezed out. Instead of the EU all they needed was a treaty regarding cross border commerce. If a country wants to loan another money or have their own separate agreements so be it.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 1, 2015)

The countries that are watching with the most interest are the " PIGS" countries;

PIGS is a horrible acronym.
But this is how the financial markets refer to the troubled and heavily-indebted countries of Europe - Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain. 
(Some analysts use PIIGS to include Italy - Europe's longstanding biggest debtor.)


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## oakapple (Feb 1, 2015)

The original concept was to make trading easier and keep countries in Europe close together as friends and allies [nobody wanted a third world war.] So for some years, this worked well. Then,as more and more laws were created by the EU, some countries obeyed them to the letter [us for example] and some disregarded them , particularly Spain when it came to fishing rights. Actually it finished off our fishing industry, a complete disgrace.The, certain countries inside the EU wanted a common currency as well, the euro, and others did not [us in Britain did not]so thankfully we are not linked fiscally, and we are doing better in this recession than those countries with the euro as currency.The EU then sucked more and more countries in that were eager to join, countries that are poor and should not be joining, and as EU citizens can come and live in our country quite legally [we can go to their country and do the same, but who wants to?!] This is a very simplistic explanation of the EU but if you are interested in the full  picture, you can Google it. Our own laws are being gradually eroded by the laws of the EU who seek to impose them on all countries. Germany is the most powerful country within the EU.


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## Debby (Feb 1, 2015)

Thanks for clarifying that for those of us 'on this side of the pond' oakapple.  I guess when the politicians were selling the idea to the populace, they neglected to mention the downside, i.e. if one of the signatories is in trouble, it may affect everybody.


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## oakapple (Feb 1, 2015)

Exactly Debby, it was supposed to be all singing and dancing. So glad that we kept the £ and didn't go for the euro as well.If the Conservative [Tory] party get re-elected at the general Election [in May] they have promised a referendum in 2016 IF they don't get the things they want for our country.It's anybody's guess who will get in at the election though.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 1, 2015)

Why do we need a political promise by a politician to help him get elected ?

Why are we not being given THE RIGHT to decide what we want?

....Not really a Democracy, is it?


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## Mike (Feb 1, 2015)

The real problem that is causing coutries to get into trouble
is because the money is controlled by a central bank and no
country can change the interest rates to boost the Euro in
their own country.

Mike.


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## oakapple (Feb 2, 2015)

That's true Mike , for the countries involved who use the Euro for currency. Perhaps the Greeks will revert to drachma?
Elzybeth, we DO have democracy here [the right to elect a new government,] which is done evry 4/5 years. Thus we can boot out those we don't like. We can't have referendums on everything of course, that is what we have elceted politicians to sort out for us.However, on a subject as important as the EU and if we want to stay within it or not, I think a referendum is the right course to take, as it is affecting our country in all sorts of important ways. What we need first, is a detailed account of the pros and cons of staying in the EU, as many people don't know the full  picture.So far, only the Conservative party have promised this, but only if they can't secure the rights they want for our country.The Labour party is against coming out of Europe. Seems we need a proper debate.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 2, 2015)

I vote here, in the UK, and here we vote for a party... 
and the party chooses who IT WANTS...not who  the people want.

We are not allowed to vote for not the most effective or capable person within the party
 or the person who will be most likely to address the needs and wishes of the people. 

It would be like America voting only for the Republicans or the Democrats...

In America 

WE HAVE PRELIMINARY VOTING TO SCREEN OUT WHICH PERSON WE WANT TO REPRESENT US FROM EACH PARTY.. 
SO WE HAVE A LOT MORE SAY ABOUT WHO OUR REPRESENTATIVES ARE.


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## Bee (Feb 2, 2015)

We went all through this before, obviously you did not learn anything or ignored the posts.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/9226-What-it-is-to-REALLY-VOTE-!!!


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## oakapple (Feb 2, 2015)

Exactly!


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## oakapple (Feb 2, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> I vote here, in the UK, and here we vote for a party...
> and the party chooses who IT WANTS...not who the people want.
> 
> We are not allowed to vote for not the most effective or capable person within the party
> ...



Here, we assume that the party knows more about the person it wants to lead them than we do [and of course it does.]


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 2, 2015)

Indeed, but no answer as to why people can't vote for individuals...???

Party Line is still that the voting public are not as wise as the Etonian "ruling class" politicians.

I disagree people, have more common sense than most politicians!


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## Bee (Feb 2, 2015)

How many more times must we tell you, we CAN vote for individuals.

Are you suggesting that all politicians are old Etonians because if you are I suggest you do a bit of homework on past and present MP's.

This is just one example, my nephew served two terms as MP for my constituancy, he went to an ordinary secondary modern school and was semi illiterate when he left school with no qualifications, but that didn't stop him from getting where he did.


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## Vivjen (Feb 2, 2015)

Anyone can vote for an individual standing in their constituency; anyone can stand for election....


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## oakapple (Feb 2, 2015)

Elyzabeth, it's just the way things are done here, and it's served us well for a long time. It allows people to not get 'hung up' on a personality, but to concentrate more on the policies of a party.We all know who heads that particular party when we vote in a general election.It matters that we agree with at least most of a party's policies when we vote, it doesn't really matter if we like the leader or not [we can never REALLY know what they are like after all.]Far better that the party itself choose it's own leader, as they know  them better than we ever will.


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## Bee (Feb 2, 2015)

Vivjen said:


> Anyone can vote for an individual standing in their constituency; anyone can stand for election....



Exactly Viv.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 2, 2015)

Obviously,I'm talking about the general election, which we have every five years..

the one that chooses the Prime Minister...?

 I vote, and I put an X next to the PARTY .

OAKAPPLLE:

YOU SEEM TO BE A VERY SENSIBLE SORT OF THINKER...

"Elyzabeth, it's just the way things are done here, and it's served us well for a long time. It allows people to not get 'hung up' on a personality, but to concentrate more on the policies of a party.We all know who heads that particular party when we vote in a general election.It matters that we agree with at least most of a party's policies when we vote, it doesn't really matter if we like the leader or not [we can never REALLY know what they are like after all.]Far better that the party itself choose it's own leader, as they know them better than we ever will."

However , perhaps if things were done differently, we would be having a referendum on the EU?

INSTED OF IT BEING USED AS A POLITICAL LOLLIPOP!


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## Warrigal (Feb 2, 2015)

Elyzabeth, you don't get to choose the Prime Minister in the UK. Nor do we in Australia although our current PM keeps telling us that we do.

You only vote for your local representative. The party or coalition that has enough seats in the parliament is asked to form a government by Her Majesty (in Australia, her representative, the Governor General) That party or coalition nominates their leader, who is appointed PM by the Queen. The party or coalition can remove their leader at any time without reference to the voters. 

We look like seeing an"elected" prime minister removed from office very soon because he has become an electoral liability to his party and coalition partners. There is a tussle going on in the Northern Territory as the ruling coalition tries to remove their leader. Over here politics is never boring.


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## Bee (Feb 3, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> Obviously,I'm talking about the general election, which we have every five years..
> 
> the one that chooses the Prime Minister...?
> 
> ...



Elyzabeth I am also talking of the general election or any election come to that, we do _*not*_ have to vote for a particular party, my cross goes next to the name I think can serve my constituancy best irregardless of the party he/she is standing for...................but then again what do I know ( or any of the other U.K. members come to that), when you put your twenty years of living in the U.K. up against my 72 years.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 3, 2015)

There are no names when I vote in the general election here....???

Only putting an X in the box next to the party.

I understand how this government works.

I am in the unique position of proudly being both an American citizen as well as proudly being  A Citizen of the UK.

People in this country haven't a clue what a real, American ballot looks like..

 it is long and the last vote by mail I made came with a booklet 85 pages long about the people up for election, including judges
and many other positions... even to who should be in charge of the electoral system in our state..
as well as amendments to the state constitution, and where should be spent in my city.

You  need to be very informed to  vote in America..

 I showed an English friend my ballot and he was extremely surprised.. 
 even  made a copy of it to show to other people


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## Bee (Feb 3, 2015)

Elyzabeth if there are no names on the ballot paper then there is something wrong in your constituancy...............in my constituancy not only are the names of the candidates and the party they are standing for showing on the ballot paper but the local paper also have a two-three page spread on all the names of the candidates, the parties they are standing for and their policies plus a little of their personal lives.

I don't wish to know  how an American ballot looks like and to be honest if I received an 85 page booklet it would be binned and I doubt if I would bother to vote on that basis.

I am very satisfied with our voting system and do not wish to copy any other country.


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## Pam (Feb 3, 2015)

*WHAT IS ON THE BALLOT PAPER?*

         You will be given an officially marked ballot paper listing all the  candidates in alphabetical order of surname, _*with the description of  their party, if they have one. *_You place an X in the box _*beside your one  chosen candidate.*_ 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8497014.stm#ballot

Please note my highlighted words.


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## Bee (Feb 3, 2015)

Thanks very much for that Pam.

Hopefully that will stop the confusion and misunderstanding now.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 5, 2015)

BACK TO GREECE!

OF COURSE THEY WILL HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THE AUSTERITY PROGRAMS IMPOSED ON THEM....

TERRIBLY SAD THE GREEK PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING SO MUCH !

THEY ARE TRYING TO STAY WARM BY BURNING ANYTHING WOOD..

 FOOD IS IN SHORT SUPPLY FOR MANY PEOPLE,

 I DON'T THINK WE REALIZE JUST HOW BAD THE SITUATION IS OVER THERE.



no I'm not "Yelling" caps got stuck


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## Vivjen (Feb 5, 2015)

Some of us do, Elyzabeth; but if they persuaded their previous government to pay taxes; and their high earners; and sorted out their public sector, life wouldn't be quite so bad..
a lot of the Greek 'elite' have been not quite strait for years...and they never should have joined the euro....


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 5, 2015)

True, they never should have been allowed to join the EU !

however THERE IS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS GOING ON OVER THERE

 HUNGRY CHILDREN AND  PEOPLE WITHOUT HEAT.... THEY NEED SOME HELP


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## Mike (Feb 5, 2015)

Now the European Central Bank has cut off supplying
money to Greek Banks.

That should cause some fireworks.

Mike.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 9, 2015)

Greece now again hunting for World War II reparations from Germany. Apparently their miffed they're not getting all they want from the EU. But in years past Germany has been one of the biggest contributors to the EU for which Greece was a big benefactor.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324474004578443081332166430

They've gotten numerous settlements over the years and still have some suits in the courts. One of the biggest issues was a forced loan to Germany in 1942 along with a massacre in 1944.

I can see any survivors from WWII getting reparations or if they trace back property & artifacts back to WWII Germans but I think most countries realize they got about all they are going to get out of Germany.


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## vickyNightowl (Mar 1, 2016)

Well this discussion went well,lol

My thoughts on Greece:

I have lived in Canada for 29 years.and in Greece before that,every year I file my inncome tax,not only here,but in Greece too.I pay my taxes in both countries.

I'm sure it happens everywhere but I think the problem starts with the government in Greece.there are no rules and now everyone is suffering,the whole country is suffering.

When there are no rules and no consiquences,then this is where you end up.

The people (not all mind you) took advantage of that.they built homes or 'storage space' (which they would rent for money and all that was under the table)without a licence!
They had pools in their homes without payingg taxes and I could go on and on,they lived above their means and ofcourse if people don't pay taxes how is a country to survive? 
Now,the government is trying to make up of so many years? Good luck!

I would prefer Greece goes back to the Drachma and gets out of EU.


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## boozercruiser (Mar 2, 2016)

I do hope that this is the end of the EU Elyzabeth.
I could go on a rampant rage and talk for England on this one. which would have some here wanting to pulverise me layful:.
I am just hoping that we vote to come OUT of the EU in the forthcoming vote, so amongst other things, we can have our sovereignty back. 
Plus our Fish!


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## vickyNightowl (Mar 2, 2016)

boozercruiser said:


> I do hope that this is the end of the EU Elyzabeth.
> I could go on a rampant rage and talk for England on this one. which would have some here wanting to pulverise me layful:.
> I am just hoping that we vote to come OUT of the EU in the forthcoming vote, so amongst other things, we can have our sovereignty back.
> Plus our Fish!



Aawww,who is stealing your fish? I could call my cousins in Greece to  send you some.

Rotflmao


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## Karen99 (Mar 2, 2016)

It is interesting reading this thread...and shows the pros and cons of united Europe..which to me is kind of a very idealistic thing with lots of pie in the sky but at the end of the day each country has its own POV.  I think a country's national identity is going to trump any idea of we're all one big happy family...and therin lies the rub.


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## vickyNightowl (Mar 2, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> It is interesting reading this thread...and shows the pros and cons of united Europe..which to me is kind of a very idealistic thing with lots of pie in the sky but at the end of the day each country has its own POV.  I think a country's national identity is going to trump any idea of we're all one big happy family...and therin lies the rub.



I agree with you Karen,if the EU is to be a united one,it can't have some countries  slacking while the rest pick up the tab.
I love Greece,its who I am but that is the truth.its a country which is suffering from gov mistakes and the people are paying for it.


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## boozercruiser (Mar 3, 2016)

vickyNightowl said:


> Aawww,who is stealing your fish? I could call my cousins in Greece to  send you some.
> 
> Rotflmao



The thing is Vicky, our fishermen cannot now fish in waters they used to, including our waters.
I appreciate of course that everyone and his mother just cannot be allowed to fish where they want and when they want because of fish conservation.
The thing is, OUR fishermen are made to abide by the rules, which has meant our fishing industry going down the pan.
Some other EU members, and countries outside of the EU  don't keep to the rules, and there is the rub.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry

*The EU’s betrayal of Britain’s fishing industry*
_The EU's fisheries policies have been a disaster for Britain, destroying communities along our coasts. 
We should emulate Greenland, get out of the EU as soon as possible, and revive one of our greatest industries._


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## vickyNightowl (Mar 3, 2016)

boozercruiser said:


> The thing is Vicky, our fishermen cannot now fish in waters they used to, including our waters.
> I appreciate of course that everyone and his mother just cannot be allowed to fish where they want and when they want because of fish conservation.
> The thing is, OUR fishermen are made to abide by the rules, which has meant our fishing industry going down the pan.
> Some other EU members, and countries outside of the EU  don't keep to the rules, and there is the rub.
> ...



You made it out to be a joke on your last post.


I have to agree with you on getting out of the EU.like I said ,some coutries are picking up the tab for others.


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## boozercruiser (Mar 3, 2016)

vickyNightowl said:


> You made it out to be a joke on your last post.
> 
> 
> I have to agree with you on getting out of the EU.like I said ,some coutries are picking up the tab for others.



Vicky.
If I didn't try to make a joke out of the whole situation, then I would cry.
You wouldn't want that now.
Would you?!


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## vickyNightowl (Mar 3, 2016)

boozercruiser said:


> Vicky.
> If I didn't try to make a joke out of the whole situation, then I would cry.
> You wouldn't want that now.
> Would you?!



It depends , if its a loud ugly cry,then no,if its tears falling silently without noise...lol


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## WhatInThe (Mar 3, 2016)

In a hypothetical sense the EU could be equated to the federal government and the countries to the individual states or cities. If these individual locations need extra money they need to raise it themselves. Many big cities have a sales tax 2-3% higher than the state. Many states have an income tax and/or a higher one at that. Also states have different laws, if one wants to do business in a particular state or city those are the rules. One size does not fit all. Greece has needed to become more self sufficient for a long time. I think now especially with the refugee influx they see the need for more independence and not worry about what others want.


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