# Taxing the rich



## mellowyellow (Apr 2, 2021)

Kerry Packer, once said
I am not evading tax in any way, shape or form.  Of course I am minimising my tax.  Anybody in this country who does not minimise his tax wants his head read. 

_ 
Billionaires like Warren Buffett pay a lower tax rate than millions of Americans because federal taxes on investment income *(unearned income)* are lower than the taxes many Americans pay on salary and wage income *(earned income).*

Because Buffett gets a high percentage of his total income from investments, he pays a lower income tax rate than his secretary. Currently, the top statutory tax rate on investment income is just 23.8%, but it’s 43.4% on income from work. 

https://americansfortaxfairness.org...-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/_
*Can’t find a date on this article *but it helps me understand a bit better as to why the rich don’t pay the same tax rate as ordinary people. And, by the way, it still stinks.


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## bowmore (Apr 2, 2021)

Without getting into the larger discussion of who is rich, or who can take advantage of tax breaks.
The highest tax bracket is 37% for taxable income over $638,000. This is not the average working salary


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## retiredtraveler (Apr 2, 2021)

Yes. It stinks. I assume you realize that Buffett and a number of his wealthy friends have complained about the tax code for a number of years. He has given nearly 40 billion dollars away in the past 20 years or so to charity. Bill Gates has also complained in a similar manner and of course, has his foundation with wife.  I'm fans of theirs, so biased. They epitomize (arguably) the American Dream. Their philanthropy is immense (you may or may not agree with the programs they support).


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## mellowyellow (Apr 2, 2021)

retiredtraveler said:


> Yes. It stinks. I assume you realize that Buffett and a number of his wealthy friends have complained about the tax code for a number of years. He has given nearly 40 billion dollars away in the past 20 years or so to charity. Bill Gates has also complained in a similar manner and of course, has his foundation with wife.  I'm fans of theirs, so biased. They epitomize (arguably) the American Dream. Their philanthropy is immense (you may or may not agree with the programs they support).


So generous, we have our own wonderful couple


_Andrew and Nicola Forrest founded Minderoo Foundation in 2001, and continue to drive its philanthropic mission today. Andrew remains Chairman of Fortescue Metals Group, the publicly listed company he founded in 2003, which is one of the world's main suppliers of iron ore. https://www.minderoo.org/_


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## mellowyellow (Apr 2, 2021)

Kerry Packer was a cruel man and I suspect he was responsible for screwing up his son's life whose mental health has reached an all-time low.  But one good thing his father did - in 1990 when he had a heart attack, he was resuscitated with a defibrillator. After recovering, Packer donated a large sum to the New South Wales Ambulance Service in order to fit all of its ambulances with portable defibrillators.  Now we see them everywhere.


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## Irwin (Apr 2, 2021)

Bill Gates made a lot of his money by engaging in unethical, predatory business practices and crushed a lot of small software companies. He also stole ideas from creative people and because of the ubiquity of the Windows operating system, was able to dominate the market. While it's good that he's helping underdeveloped nations, I'd be more impressed if he helped our country.


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## Laurie (Apr 3, 2021)

It's called Income Tax.  Those who earn the most pay the most.

Anything else is left wing socialist envy from lazy sods who don't see why they should work for a living.

For the record I wore coveralls at work and used a de-greasant on my hands  at finish time, as did my father before me and as my son does now.


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## Buckeye (Apr 3, 2021)

Not sure how the "rich" pay less since about half the folks here in the US don't pay any income tax, and many get a "refund" because of child credits, etc.  

And this is a reminder that I need to start working on my own tax return.


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## retiredtraveler (Apr 3, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Bill Gates made a lot of his money by engaging in unethical, predatory business practices and crushed a lot of small software companies. He also stole ideas from creative people and because of the ubiquity of the Windows operating system, was able to dominate the market. While it's good that he's helping underdeveloped nations, I'd be more impressed if he helped our country.


Yeah. I can't argue against that. I've read so many articles in the past about business practices. I can't determine how bad they were, how unethical, etc. But, yes, he's not 'squeaky clean' at the least, even though I'm still a fan.


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## Don M. (Apr 3, 2021)

The U.S. tax code consists of over 6500 pages....95% of which are tax breaks for the wealthy, corporations, and special interests....who supply most of the campaign funding for the politicians.  If we had a Truly Fair tax system, it could probably be written on a dozen pages....or less.


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## gennie (Apr 3, 2021)

The most fair and most simple - instead of income tax and a 6,500 page tax code, only a Federal Sales Tax.   Every time something changes hands, it gets taxed.  No exceptions.   Same rate for all.  No loopholes.    No paperwork, no I.R.S, no tax attorneys or accountants.  NO avoidance of paying your fair share because it's human nature.  The more money you have, the more you spend.   The only people who get breaks are the wealthy misers who enjoy their money by banking it instead of spending it.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm with you on all, Mellow.

Here is an excellent watch that covers wealth and taxes (among other things), and tells of how much more the poor pay in taxation compared to the rich.


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## SetWave (Apr 3, 2021)

Did someone say selfish greed?!?


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 3, 2021)

For anyone interested, read about the two-tiered system that's alive and well here in Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cra-panama-papers-audits-5-years-1.5974690


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## Chris21E (Apr 3, 2021)

I still wonder why social security is taxed. My friend was getting S.S. but part of  was taxed


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## Pepper (Apr 3, 2021)

Chris21E said:


> I still wonder why social security is taxed. My friend was getting S.S. but part of  was taxed


Social security by itself is not taxed.  When extra income beyond it is added to it and it exceeds a certain amount only then do taxes apply.  Don't know what amount off the top of my head.


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## Pepper (Apr 3, 2021)

Everything reminds me of a song:


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## Buckeye (Apr 3, 2021)

Looks like some of you need to go back to school and take a course in Macro Economics 101, and learn about regressive taxes, flat taxes, and progressive taxes, etc.  Want a flat tax?  Great, but it will mean an increase in taxes for the 50% or so of Americans who currently pay zero fed tax.  Want a national sales tax to replace income tax?  Great, but sales taxes are known for being regressive, meaning poor people pay a larger % (not $$, percent) of their income because the folks with more money don't spend every last dime they get.

Here's some data to consider, or not if it will make you uncomfortable...

Taxes paid by the rich


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 3, 2021)

Willy Sutton, the bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks, he answered, "That's were the money is". So they can either tax me, or some multi-billionaire. Guess where the money is. Yeah, if I were a billionaire, I'd be griping, too. We live in a time, when you can earn unlimited amounts of money. I believe higher taxes is just a cost of making that much wealth. Society gives, but  society takes some back. And quite frankly, if you're giving billions away, why are you bitching about paying taxes.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 3, 2021)

This is truly a "taxing" thread. [runs for cover]    

Tony


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## fmdog44 (Apr 3, 2021)

_"I'd love to change the world but I don't know what to do so I'm leaving it up to you." _
         -Ten Years After


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## oldiebutgoody (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm just a bit confused as to what political topics are allowed and not allowed here. (?)


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## Mike (Apr 3, 2021)

I worked "on the tools", even as a boss, I never
expected somebody to do a job that I couldn't,
most times I had to show how it was done!

Our income tax, after a certain figure went up to
40%, I am not sure what the figure was now, maybe
between £25,000 and £35,000, anyway I paid 40%
tax for a long time and didn't complain, as I was
earning good money, I couldn't shave anything off
to get it cut as I was employed by a company.

When I was self-employed, I did use every trick in the
book to get the tax reduced and it was legal to do so.

Mike.


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## oldiebutgoody (Apr 3, 2021)

While people are complaining about getting over taxed, they forget that wealthy elites use foreign tax havens to shelter their resources. It is a fact that they have well over $30 trillion that go tax free. Reform the Tax Code and your annual tax bill will go downward considerably.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 3, 2021)

The rich pay taxes on their earnings. They pay a separate tax on their investment earnings and it's lower because their investments greatly benefit the economy.

If I had millions or billions of dollars it wouldn't sit in a bank while I lived off of it. Even when interest rates are low, that income alone is more than enough to live on if you're sitting on multi-millions. And even though investing earns you more money, investing is your best option - it helps the economy and provides jobs. If the rich were cripplingly taxed, they wouldn't want to invest, they'd all create Foundations and/or use any number of umbrellas that make their money untouchable.

I'm more in favor of complete transparency on government spending than going after rich people's money.


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## Buckeye (Apr 3, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> While people are complaining about getting over taxed, they forget that wealthy elites use foreign tax havens to shelter their resources. It is a fact that they have well over $30 trillion that go tax free. Reform the Tax Code and your annual tax bill will go downward considerably.


You'll have to give us a link to support your assertion that there is $30 trillion in foreign tax havens.
Here's a link that says the* total* wealth of our Billionaires is about $4.1 trillion.

Billionaires

And, since about half of Americans don't pay any tax, how will their "tax bill go downward considerably"?


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 4, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> While people are complaining about getting over taxed, they forget that wealthy elites use foreign tax havens to shelter their resources. It is a fact that they have well over $30 trillion that go tax free. Reform the Tax Code and your annual tax bill will go downward considerably.


Yes, right you are.

In post #14, I posted a link on the Panama Papers (do check it out), it's a reminder of the two-tiered system that exists between the poor and the rich.

Nothing like knowing working class bottom feeders will continue to bare the brunt of taxation, while the elite shelter their wealth and enjoy the benefits of flying under the radar.

And, most insulting of all, according to the Panama Papers, _it's too much work to go after them_, so very little in the way of taxes will ever be recouped, but heaven forbid when the friendly neighbourhood barber doesn't claim enough clients throughout the year, or the hairdresser that runs a salon out of her home may have manipulated her tax filings to reflect less than she actually made. Heaven forbid.

As the bottom feeders that most of us are, heaven forbid we make an extra penny on something, Mr. Taxman is right there with their filthy dirty little hand out looking to take, take, take, _but it's too much effort and expense to go after the elite. _


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## Irwin (Apr 4, 2021)

Our infrastructure is crumbling and we're $30 trillion in debt.
We're one of the few advanced countries without highspeed rail (except for a few short routes).
We pay more for healthcare than any other advanced country.
We pay more for higher education than almost all advanced countries.
We spend more on defense than the next 10 countries combined.
Perhaps our priorities are screwed up.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 4, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Yes, right you are.
> 
> In post #14, I posted a link on the Panama Papers (do check it out), it's a reminder of the two-tiered system that exists between the poor and the rich.
> 
> ...


This calls for a song...






It is admittedly awful on the ears, but it reflects some of the anger expressed here.

Tony


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## hawkdon (Apr 4, 2021)

One of my thoughts on the very wealth has to do with who
put them in that "class" !! Us'ns that's who!!! We the lower
paid buy their products or serv ices at outrageous costs and
therefore make them and their stockholders rich...did you 
ever see prices go down?? not likely....wondering if the moguls 
marketed their products at less costs if they would sell MORE
and still get wealthy, but in the meantime make their products more accessible?? (i know I'm crazy).....


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 4, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Looks like some of you need to go back to school and take a course in Macro Economics 101, and learn about regressive taxes, flat taxes, and progressive taxes, etc.  Want a flat tax?  Great, but it will mean an increase in taxes for the 50% or so of Americans who currently pay zero fed tax.  Want a national sales tax to replace income tax?  Great, but sales taxes are known for being regressive, meaning poor people pay a larger % (not $$, percent) of their income because the folks with more money don't spend every last dime they get.
> 
> Here's some data to consider, or not if it will make you uncomfortable...
> 
> Taxes paid by the rich


Taxes paid by the rich?

Maybe, but I don't for a second buy into the idea, because whatever the rich pay (over and above the poor), they end up making back (in spades... PLUS SOME) with other little dirty, slimy, backdoor deals and perks they qualify for throughout the year.

Taxation will be equal IMO when the rich are taxed to the point of them feeling the pain, feeling the pinch, seeing their bank accounts drop, and them having to retract on planned purchases, like we the poor have to endure, that's when taxation will reach a fair and just balance.


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## oldiebutgoody (Apr 6, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> You'll have to give us a link to support your assertion that there is $30 trillion in foreign tax havens.
> Here's a link that says the* total* wealth of our Billionaires is about $4.1 trillion.
> 
> Billionaires
> ...





$30+ trillion:   Super rich hold $32 trillion in offshore havens | Reuters

All that capital will create jobs which generate tax revenues.  It will eliminate the national debt and may even cause the end of the income tax.  Dissolve the military industrial complex and other forms of corporate welfare schemes as that would help immensely.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 6, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> $30+ trillion:   Super rich hold $32 trillion in offshore havens | Reuters
> 
> All that capital will create jobs which generate tax revenues.  It will eliminate the national debt and may even cause the end of the income tax.  Dissolve the military industrial complex and other forms of corporate welfare schemes as that would help immensely.


Would be a dream, however, with the 1% having their hands in the pockets of the most powerful people in the world, and the most powerful people in the world having their hands in the pockets of the 1%, we'll never see the day.


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## oldiebutgoody (Apr 19, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> They pay a separate tax on their investment earnings and it's lower because their investments greatly benefit the economy.






Trillions sheltered overseas do not benefit our society.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 19, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Would be a dream, however, with the 1% having their hands in the pockets of the most powerful people in the world, and the most powerful people in the world having their hands in the pockets of the 1%, we'll never see the day.


I just knew there was a song in this somewhere...






Tony


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