# Satanic Activity Children's Book in Florida Public School



## SeaBreeze (Sep 17, 2014)

There's some issues with a satanic organization supplying children in school with their literature.  I think all religious (or non-religious) publications should be kept out of public schools.   What do you think?  http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/...or-satanic-activity-books-in-florida-schools/


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## QuickSilver (Sep 17, 2014)

I firmly believe in the separation of Chuch and State.  Public schools fall under the "State" catagory as they are funded by tax dollars.  Therefore ALL religious material should be kept out.. and that includes Christian.   People have to understand you cannot have it both ways.  You cannot have Christian doctrine and prayer in schools and keep out other religions.  IMO.. keep religion in Church and out of the schools.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 17, 2014)

I agree completely QuickSilver!


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## Ina (Sep 17, 2014)

I totally agree QuickSilver. :wave:


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## Warrigal (Sep 17, 2014)

You might need to invoke some federal power for that because the separation of church and state probably doesn't apply to the states.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 17, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> You might need to invoke some federal power for that because the separation of church and state probably doesn't apply to the states.



Why would you think that?  The US Constitution provides for the separation of Church and State.  It's FEDERAL law which always supercedes State laws.  It's called the Supremacy Clause


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## Warrigal (Sep 17, 2014)

It seems to me that in some states or even in some districts that does not always apply.

In our federal system the constitution deems education to be a state responsibility and the states may appoint chaplains in state schools. if they wish to.

This is a complicated issue that has been before the High Court because chaplaincy was an initiative of a former federal government and it funded the schools directly to appoint chaplains thus bypassing any objections from the states. The end result has been that while chaplaincy is not against the constitution, direct funding is. Now the feds fund the states who then pass on the money to the schools.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 17, 2014)

Here.... ALL States MUST follow the US Constitution.  It's the law that all other laws must be based on.. even State laws.   A State cannot pass a law that is unconstitutional  or is in conflict with a Federal law.  A Public school that accepts tax dollars.. State OR Federal tax dollars must abide by the Separation of Church and State.  A private school.. can be religious.


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

This is what our constitution says about religion
_The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth._

Section 116 obviously drew inspiration from the First Amendment of the United States which states that
_
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances._

The First Amendment has been interpreted by their Supreme Court to require a separation of church and state. This meant in practice the curtailment of government assistance to religious schools, prayers in school ceremonies were unconstitutional. As of recently 37 of the 50 American states are constitutionally prohibited, at least in theory, from financing religious schools.[SUP]*1*[/SUP] The ‘wall of separation’ recognised that in principle government and religion should keep out of each other’s way as much as possible.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights#amendmenti

These similar statements seem to have been interpreted quite differently in our two countries. For example our federal government subsidises church run schools (and hospitals, aged care facilities and long day care centres)  but it does not favour any one religious system. The only test is whether the school etc is properly run according to regulations and follows approved curricula/programs. This is not seen as being unconstitutional in any way. The feds can only do this with the approval of the states because according to the constitution these are areas of state responsibility.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 18, 2014)

So, a little religious training can be snuck in on the side or just flagrantly expounded in some of your schools?


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## QuickSilver (Sep 18, 2014)

This leads to a yearly problem here... involving Christmas.   Every year Christain groups want to put up Nativity scenes in public and Government buildings.. and every year the Jews, Muslims and Atheists complain and the courts make them remove it.  So we have a yearly "War on Chistmas" according to the Religious Right.  Then the other religions say..  OK.. but let us put up our religious symbols too... and we are off an running..    In actuality, as you say, the first Amendment does say that there an be no establishment of State Religion.. featuring one and not the others is completely unconstitutional..(back to the OP)    Tell that to the Christmas warriors.   Since it's almost October.. it's time to dust off the Nativities, Minorahs, and 5 pointed stars and get ready to rumble.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 18, 2014)

When a local mayor put a nativity scene on city hall property one recent Xmas season the howling made him issue a statement that any symbols could join the scene.  He was shocked to find pink flamingos and old toilets on the property shortly thereafter.  The space was emptied and has remained empty during the holiday season since...


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> So, a little religious training can be snuck in on the side or just flagrantly expounded in some of your schools?


Ever since the establishment of the public school system in my state, 30 - 40 minutes per week has been set aside for religious instruction. It is not delivered by the regular school teachers but by volunteers from local churches or other recognised religions from the local area. If no-one is available for a particular faith, or if the parents object, the kids do silent reading because the time is reserved for religious instruction only. For a few years now another option, Ethics, has been added to the mix but it requires volunteers to deliver it and they must undergo some training in how to deliver the curriculum.

The reason for this is historic. The Anglican Church (then the Church of England) handed over its school system to the state and this was part of the deal. The catholics kept their schools. In the 1960s the remaining church run schools won a campaign for state aid by threatening to close down their schools which would have swamped the state schools overnight.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 18, 2014)

_



			The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
		
Click to expand...


So if this is part of your 1st amendment, how is it determined WHICH religion does the religious instruction in your schools?   If it's just Anglican.. then isn't that going against what your Constitution says.. by an established religion?     You refer to "recognised religions"  Does that include Non-Christian?  Are Rabi's allowed in... or Imams from local mosques?    It would seem to me that to be constitutional, all religions should be equally taught. _


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 18, 2014)

Messy, very messy...


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

First, it's not an amendment. It is included in the original document.

 All religions who wish to have access to the period of religious instruction. In primary school I would have attended Methodist scripture because I was baptised in that church. I attended Baptist Sunday School because it was the nearest church and was in walking distance. In secondary school I scripture shopped - Church of England to be with my best friend them Methodist or Presbyterian if the teacher wasn't crazy and could provide an interesting talk. Finally I opted out completely and spent the time doing extra chemistry prac work in the school lab. This was not allowed but our teacher did not chase us out.

 Kids who were Jewish or very small denominations were usually unable to receive special religious instruction (SRE) in a public school for lack of volunteers. They went to the library instead. Other states have variations on this arrangement but there is a strong push from parents to do away with the scripture period. It is not compulsory for their children to attend but it is an opt out system and they feel that their children are being singled out and made to feel different if they refuse permission for them to attend. 

To answer your other question, Rabbis, Imans, Salvation Army, Buddhists are all welcome to provide religious instruction if there are any children of that faith in the school. 

I should also add that the school curriculum has some general religious education (GRE) which all students study. This is more like comparative religion and is linked to the history of Australia via the Human Society and its Environment strand. The regular class room teachers deal with this section. It is about religion rather than being religious in nature. The students would learn about major religious festivals Easter, Christmas, Ramadan, Hannakuh, Divali etc and the Aboriginal Dreamtime and the significance of sacred sites and song lines. The purpose is to promote understanding of how religions affect society and to develop tolerance for difference.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 18, 2014)

Aren't there a bunch of atheists in OZ?  They must be well read spending so much time in the library...


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

As far as I am aware..Satanism is not a nice religion..I would like to read this book that they propose to children..


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## QuickSilver (Sep 18, 2014)

I would have no problem with a "Comparitive Religion" class taught in the upper grades..  A class that just gives the beliefs of all the major religions to compare and contrast.  Kids in grammar school should stick to the basics.


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

I didn't think Satanism was a major religion..perhaps I am wrong..I don't know if you know anything about Satanism..I have met people who do..it is an abhorrence!!

Google it..it really is vile!!


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Aren't there a bunch of atheists in OZ?  They must be well read spending so much time in the library...



Plenty. Where it is available they are very enthusiastic about the Ethics program.



> As far as I am aware..Satanism is not a nice religion..I would like to read this book that they propose to children..



Satanism is not a recognised religion in Australia. Satanists therefore have no access to children in schools. There are a few organisational tests that must be satisfied before a religion is recognised. This is done by act of parliament and has nothing to do with the beliefs. It's mostly about how the property and assets are managed. In effect, recognition is similar to corporatisation of a business. The legal entity of my church is the Board of Property and Finance. This is the structure that is necessary for taxation and other purposes.


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Satanism is not a recognised religion in Australia. Satanists therefore have no access to children in schools.



Satanism here is walking round at night..wearing hooded garments and sacrificing animals...

However, having said that, we do have Wiccan churches here..


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 18, 2014)

Glad to see the atheists are being accommodated.  Now, about the hedonists...?


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Glad to see the atheists are being accommodated.  Now, about the hedonists...?



After you...


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## QuickSilver (Sep 18, 2014)

Really??   I haven't seen one single person sacrificing animals.. and the only hooded folks here are the KKK..  lol!    I know people who practice Wiccan. Not my cup of tea, but that's their business.  Don't let them in the schools to teach it... but also.. don't let ANY religion in the schools... no matter how lovely. 

The point is..   Who gets to decide what is an acceptable religion?  Wiccan is completely acceptable to other Wiccans.  That is why it's best kept out of schools and stays in Churches.  No one is saying people cannot practice whatever belief they choose.  It's really not anyones business.  Although I think the line would be drawn at Human sacrifice.


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Really??   I haven't seen one single person sacrificing animals.. and the only hooded folks here are the KKK..  lol!    I know people who practice Wiccan. Not my cup of tea, but that's their business.  Don't let them in the schools to teach it... but also.. don't let ANY religion in the schools... no matter how lovely.
> 
> The point is..   Who gets to decide what is an acceptable religion?  Wiccan is completely acceptable to other Wiccans.  That is why it's best kept out of schools and stays in Churches.  No one is saying people cannot practice whatever belief they choose.  It's really not anyones business.  Although I think the line would be drawn at Human sacrifice.



Satanism?

Read this..

http://www.joyofsatan.org/


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## Justme (Sep 18, 2014)

What is the difference between the Biblical deity and Satan? The deity is evil, if the deeds attributed to it were factual, poor old Satan is only reputed to be evil!


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

Yes..the Lord of Light (Lucifer) was a fallen angel...according to the bible..it is not the biblical sense I am worried about...I have read the Old testament..It is the modern interpretation that is more disturbing..


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

What do these people want?


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## WhatInThe (Sep 18, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> I firmly believe in the separation of Chuch and State.  Public schools fall under the "State" catagory as they are funded by tax dollars.  Therefore ALL religious material should be kept out.. and that includes Christian.   People have to understand you cannot have it both ways.  You cannot have Christian doctrine and prayer in schools and keep out other religions.  IMO.. keep religion in Church and out of the schools.



Excellent. Can't have both ways says it best.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 18, 2014)

Twixie said:


> What do these people want?



I think they want to be left alone believe and worship as they please.   What do the uber Religious Christains want?


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## Twixie (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm certainly not an uber religious Christian...I am not religious at all..When I said I'd read the old testament..I have also read the Torah and the Koran..I don't believe in any of it..I was comparing them...


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## RadishRose (Sep 18, 2014)

I may or may not believe in Christianity or any other religion. But I surely don't believe in Santa Claus, so why must I put up with his images every Christmas? I do, cuz it's no big deal!


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> The point is..   Who gets to decide what is an acceptable religion?  Wiccan is completely acceptable to other Wiccans.  That is why it's best kept out of schools and stays in Churches.  No one is saying people cannot practice whatever belief they choose.  It's really not anyones business.  Although I think the line would be drawn at Human sacrifice.



In my post I used the term 'recognised' religion rather than 'acceptable' religion because I was talking about the legal status of religious institutions. A group of people don't need to be recognised before deciding to worship who or whatever they choose but the manner of the worship practices and customs are still subject to Australian law. Muslims are not allowed to ritually slaughter sheep for example, nor marry their daughters off at the age of 12. Female circumcision is illegal. 

There are a couple of groups that are recognised that probably shouldn't be - Scientology for one and the Exclusive Order of the Plymouth Brethren, both of which are really just cults. Religious status is not recognised for well established groups like the Masons, for example, even though acknowledgement of a deity is part of the ritual. AA is not a religion either although it talks about a 'Higher Power'.

If wiccans were to develop the structures and organisation that the government requires they might be recognised but as far as access to children in the schools is concerned they could only take part in the special religious education (SRE) if there were children in the school of that persuasion and then only with the consent of the parents who would have indicated this on enrolment. Distributing religious literature to all and sundry is not allowed. I reckon when we get to the point of allowing Satanists into school the SRE program will collapse under the weight of protest from everyone but the Satanists.


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

RadishRose said:


> I may or may not believe in Christianity or any other religion. But I surely don't believe in Santa Claus, so why must I put up with his images every Christmas? I do, cuz it's no big deal!


As a child who enjoyed the magic of secular Christmas with Santa and presents and a fine baked dinner shared with extended family. I would never object to images of Santa. I'm not the Christmas Grinch.

However, I have on occasions been pretty riled by the over commercialisation of this Christian festival. When I see images of baby Jesus being used to sell expensive products I want to start writing letters to let the copy writers know that they are stepping over a line in the sand. I don't though. It's no biggie in the (almost) infinite time line of the Universe. So I just don't buy products advertised this way.


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2014)

Religion Australian style










And then there are the more serious messages


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## Warrigal (Sep 19, 2014)

Another example of Aussie religion.
It's a response to the terrorism raids in Sydney and Brisbane.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 19, 2014)

Today is Talk Like a Pirate Day!  I kid you not...


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## Warrigal (Sep 19, 2014)

I know. My family observes it religiously. :lol:

Robert Newton and Johnny Depp are my favourite pirates.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 19, 2014)

Sick, very sick, but you can get free therapy from your socialist government...


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