# Are we in the beginning of the next Great Depression?



## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

It just could be according to some economist types.  One big reason is you. Yes, the aging of so many populations who no longer work, consume, and pay taxes are straining governments to and thru the limits.  Sorry, seniors, but you should probably check out now for the benefit of your children and grandchildren...


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## Shalimar (Dec 14, 2015)

Hmm. You first Ralphy! I am decades younger. Bye!


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Which means that you might be around when the full impact is felt and I am glad that I won't be around to see your end in some warehouse for the elderly.  Yours will be an ignominious ending....


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## Shalimar (Dec 14, 2015)

Nope. I will ride off into the sunset on my happy little death pill. Suicide is painless.....


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Yes it is, and brings on many changes...


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## Warrigal (Dec 14, 2015)




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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Cheekiness won't save you...


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## Shalimar (Dec 14, 2015)

The only constant is change.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

And some changes ain't so great...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Ralphy....  We MAY very well be in the beginning of another Great Recession... but not for the reasons you outlined.  It's NOT the aging seniors that are consuming less that will cause it.. but the relentless flow of wealth up to the top 1%, leaving very little disposable income for everyone else..  Unfettered Capitalism is in the final throws of cannibalizing itself.  Profit for profit sake.. and profit at all costs has robbed consumers of income and buying power.  When all the money is shifted to the top, who will be left to consume the goods and services to enable more profit?    Time to take a look at the rigged system and vote out it's puppets..   Bernie Sanders has a good strong message in that regard..  people better heed it..


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## Warrigal (Dec 14, 2015)

In the event of a depression I will just have to build a chook yard and plant a bigger veggie garden.
Then I'll get the sewing machine serviced and advertise myself as a maths coach.

I'll be fine.

Don't you have any skills to fall back on, Ralphy?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Bernie is burned toast.  The rest, including Hillary, are hopelessly in bed with big money, whatever fom it takes. Not to mention anyone with assets hiding them from the government and letting others pay for their nursing home care. Prepare to warehoused...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Bernie is burned toast.  The rest, including Hillary, are hopelessly in bed with big money, whatever fom it takes. Not to mention anyone with assets hiding them from the government and letting others pay for their nursing home care. Prepare to warehoused...




This is not about Bernie... but his message...  I think you are blaming the wrong people...  It's not the Seniors.. they are the victims..  It's the Uber wealthy.. and Corporations hiding VAST amounts in overseas shelters... Not grandma putting her house in a trust.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

It is all of those things but granny is equally to blame, and she may pay the price when it comes to her nursing home care as she might be left in a bed or strapped in a chair all day while her kids or grandkids buy a new car and take a cruise...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Oh stop


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Stop?  Everybody I Knowh is doing this and some poor person cleaning toilets at the mall will pay for granny. It is wrong and you are probably guilty of it...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

You know what they say about Assuming.

It's not as easy as you think Ralphy

http://www.tn-elderlaw.com/resources/asset-protection-faq


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Too many of us have our heads in the sand, and I am putting it gently, when it oomes to this matter.  The bulge of aging baby boomers has reached the point of ten thousand a day turning sixty-five and they are breaking a system that was already teetering...


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## BobF (Dec 14, 2015)

It is the tax rules that are causing much of our problems.   It is easy for persons and businesses to hide their incomes away from the US tax situation.   That needs some looking into no matter who, politically, is in charge.   Something that we can not change as most people want more in wages so they can pay more for food and items.   Hard to get better wages and for the companies to make profits when competing countries will build our stuff so much cheaper and ship them to the US.   Some how that needs to be changed so our production can be brought home again.

Plenty of things need fixed and it is not just the one party to do it.   Both sides need to sit together and work to end the problem.   It seems to be better this last year and next year with a new President, either side, it will look better yet.


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## Davey Jones (Dec 14, 2015)

Not worried and a big thanks to Bill Clintons years as POTUS and the stocks going thru the roof, they can keep my s.s. check and Ill still be OK. I did all my homework, for the future, while in the workforce and it is now paying off.


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## AZ Jim (Dec 14, 2015)

Ralphy I love ya like a brother from another mother, but sometimes your posts just don't inspire me to the greatness I still hope to achieve.  Lighten up.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Don't count on your stocks holding up in the long term and the chances of the parties getting together are zero to none.  Better have fun before the country is done with granny leading the way by not paying for her own care; she is symbolic of everybody taking care of their own and screwing someone else...


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## Karen99 (Dec 14, 2015)

Relax, Ralphy..you sound like you're unraveling.  Turn off the news and go for a walk.

:stop:


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Ralphy...  there are so many rules in place to prevent granny from doing what you are saying..  It's just not that easy to transfer all your assets with the intention of screwing the system..  It really isn't...  read my link..   Not only must it be done at least 5 years before entering the nursing home.. it must be for fair market value.. not one penny less.. which would leave junior on the hook for lots of taxes and capital gain.

As the others have said..  lighten up...  you have not uncovered the answer to the county's fiscal problems.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Nobody wants to hear it but I am willing to bet that probably everyone here is hiding assets, and those chickens will becoming home to roost shortly.  With so many people living longer the Alzheimer's cases will break the bank shortly, let alone those just to feeble to care for themselves.  Sorry to take some of the ring out of your silver bells and it is still too soon for the eggnog,or maybe it isn't...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

What the heck set you off on this particular toot?    So why don't you be the first to confess .... What assets are YOU hiding?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

No hidden assets, and I have told my kids that if I ever wind up in a nursing home every penny that I have shold be spent on my care...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

So why do you believe we are hiding assets?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Also, I heard an economist who predicted the housing bubble and the recent recession telling how all of the pieces were coming together for a global meltdown. It made me think, again, that we are too quick to blame others while so many of us are a part of the problem.  Hiding just a few hundred dollars in a home or other assets mounts up rapidly when millions are doing it.  This is not me trying to sound holier than thou, but I have seen it done time and again with friends and relatives, and it is a bigger problem than most want to admit or hear about.  Well, it is on to the cocktail hour when these issues will disappear and a smile appear...


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 14, 2015)

Now it is time for all of you to 'fess up...


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## Warrigal (Dec 14, 2015)

Very hard for hubby and I to hide any assets. We own our own house - not exactly hidden - two elderly cars - declared - the usual household effects - a bit of money in fixed term deposits - also declared - and our income comes from our superannuation accounts which the government knows all about, even as the market moves up and down.

Except by using fraudulent bank accounts, how do you hide assets? 
Now if I were a corporation, with highly paid financiers and lawyers....


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## Jackie22 (Dec 14, 2015)

Ralphy, maybe you should worry more about the hidden assets of the rich and the big Corporations than what granny has buried in her back yard....last I heard it was in the 40 to 50 Trillion range.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Very hard for hubby and I to hide any assets. We own our own house - not exactly hidden - two elderly cars - declared - the usual household effects - a bit of money in fixed term deposits - also declared - and our income comes from our superannuation accounts which the government knows all about, even as the market moves up and down.
> 
> Except by using fraudulent bank accounts, how do you hide assets?
> Now if I were a corporation, with highly paid financiers and lawyers....



Ralphy thinks everyone's grandma is putting her house and her bank accounts in her kids or grandkids names in order to not have to pay for any nursing home care.. So it's not exactly "hiding" them as it is giving them to others so the asset cannot be used to pay for long term care or other expenses.. and the taxpayer then has to foot the bill for caring for granny.    as I explained to him... It's very difficult to do.


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## Warrigal (Dec 14, 2015)

We are allowed to gift a certain amount over any five year period. It's not all that much and must be declared. This only applies if you are receiving any public benefit such as a pension and/or government subsidised nursing home care.



> [h=2]Allowable gifting amount[/h]You and your partner have a gifting free area of $10,000 per financial year, limited to $30,000 per 5 financial years.
> If the total of gifts made in a financial year exceeds $10,000, the excess will be assessed as a deprived asset. This is called the $10,000 rule.
> A maximum of $30,000 can be gifted over a rolling period of 5 financial years, but must not exceed $10,000 in any 1 year to avoid deprivation. Only $30,000 of gifting in a 5 year period can be exempted. This is called the $30,000 rule.
> [h=3]If you gift more than the allowable amount[/h]Any gift or gifts with a total value greater than the allowable amounts will be assessed as a deprived asset for 5 years from the date of gift and will be subject to the income deeming provisions[SUP][3][/SUP]. This may change if a gift is returned.



If you 'sell' an asset to a family member for less that its true value it is considered to be a deprived asset and is treated as a gift and included in the $10,000 or $30,000 rule.

The government is not interested in]whether you give your grandson your 15 year old Toyota or you give your grand daughter $200 for a 21st birthday present but it does pay attention if your main asset, your home say, is sold for a pittance to your daughter or if your major bank account is closed and the money seems to have vaporised.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 14, 2015)

Just about the same here..  I posted a link to our rules upthread.. It's just not the problem Ralphy seems to think it is...  As we have told him... best to look toward the very wealthy with their off shore bank accounts or corporations with their tax havens...  Leave grandma alone.


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## Butterfly (Dec 14, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Just about the same here..  I posted a link to our rules upthread.. It's just not the problem Ralphy seems to think it is...  As we have told him... best to look toward the very wealthy with their off shore bank accounts or corporations with their tax havens...  Leave grandma alone.



I agree -- I think assets are pretty hard to hide for the average guy.  Ralphy, what gave you such a you-know-what on for poor ol' grandma?


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## tnthomas (Dec 14, 2015)

...Ralphy *is* right, you know.   


[off topic]   I watched The Green Mile yesterday on TV, the beginning of the movie where the elder Tom Hanks' character is shown in an "old folks home" caught my attention.  I'm thinking- that doesn't look too bad a fate to suffer...but who in the world is paying for that type of accommodations?   Those old folks would need considerable assets for such a comfortable 'assisted living' environment.   Where would folks go that didn't have money, off to the homeless jungles?   

[/back-on-topic]   O.K., becoming green wafers*** is the only real answer to the looming depression that Ralphy is alerting to in the OP.









*** Soylent Green


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## chic (Dec 15, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Nope. I will ride off into the sunset on my happy little death pill. Suicide is painless.....



Can I have one too, Shal? Hopeless financial poverty is a condition I couldn't abide. We all have our limits.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Elder law lawyers blatantly advertise here on protecting assets from the use for nursing home care.  Practically every senior I know has set up a way to hide money by setting it up in their children's names,   and in some cases this adds up to a million or more.  Although the middle class is disappearing most of the old ones have accumulated quite a little wealth in homes and investments.  Most are now doing this in full knowledge of the five year look back rule.  You can't point your finger at the super rich when you are also complicit. And, no one here has 'fessed up yet...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Well Ralphy...   go ahead and scapegoat grandma it you will.... but I say.. it's not the huge problem you think it is... If it was... Republicans would be all over it..  anything to take the blame away from their puppetmasters.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

The politicians of any stripe are hiding their family assets just like everybody else.  And I am not scapegoating granny as it usually is her children who are talking her into signing over whatever she's got.  But you are ducking the issue by not telling us what you have done...


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## Warrigal (Dec 15, 2015)

I did tell you. Centrelink knows everything.
Nothing is hidden. I sleep soundly at night.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Seems like you furriners have this situation under control compared to us...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The politicians of any stripe are hiding their family assets just like everybody else.  And I am not scapegoating granny as it usually is her children who are talking her into signing over whatever she's got.  But you are ducking the issue by not telling us what you have done...




Why are my finances any business of yours?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Nobody cares about your finances except for the matter of hiding assets, which you must be guilty of because you refuse to answer...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Nobody cares about your finances except for the matter of hiding assets, which you must be guilty of because you refuse to answer...



I refuse because it's not any of your business...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I refuse because it's not any of your business...



I will say this however,  I have two sons.    One is married to the most hateful, nasty and vindictive bitches that ever lived.   The other is a recovering alcoholic.. with only one year sober.   Since I am not a stupid woman... do you believe I would sign over my hard earned money to either?   Maybe?    Any chance?   lol!!


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

OK, so you are willing to spend everything on your nursing home care or not?


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Is there a choice?  The Government looks at everyone's assets before Medicaid is made responsible...  doesn't it?   It's really not that easy to fool our good Uncle Ralphy... despite what Conservatives want to believe.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I will say this however,  I have two sons.    One is married to the most hateful, nasty and vindictive bitches that ever lived.   The other is a recovering alcoholic.. with only one year sober.   Since I am not a stupid woman... do you believe I would sign over my hard earned money to either?   Maybe?    Any chance?   lol!!



Best wishes to you alcoholic son for his one year sober.   I did that pattern nearly 35 years ago while in my 40's.    I was a pretty badly messed up alcoholic.   Was put into a month long dry out and retraining group.   Took them seriously and joined AA as part of my follow on support.   Was at first a daily AA follower, then as  time went on I changed to 3 times a week, then after we moved from that location 5 years of so later, I dropped out of active AA meetings.   Still keep my AA books, my non drinking attitude.   I now go into restaurants and places to eat but never even bothered to ask for drinks.   My wife and son and daughter have had drinks and I find that OK too.   It is just me I have had to concern about.

Confession above or a brag?   You should encourage your son to continue his non drinking ways as over time I found it to become  less and less a commanding idea.   He should look into AA if he has not.   Some AA units can become oppressive and make me feel unwelcome in a way so I just moved on and kept repeating those that I felt comfortable in.   They have various formats such as OPEN, STEPS, some are religious, others can be lunch time only, evenings, even some in mornings.   They really do try to help those in need in many ways.   Look for your preferred times and support methods.

Best wishes to your son on the mend.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Yes, best wishes to all fighting alcoholism, and I have been lucky not to have that a problem in my family.  As for ducking Uncle, it is easier than you think, I know so many that have done it when it was an eighteen month look back, but the younger ones are tuned into the five year one and are moving fast to get assets out of their parents and grandparents names...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Well you must run in a pretty wealthy group willing to divulge all their financial schemes to YOU.....    I personally know of no one who is hiding anything.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

You are in a minority, then, because these people include sisters and nieces who cover a spectrum of the middle class.  They rarely disclose their net worth but they have on occasion told me how they were preserving some assets. I told them in a diplomatic way that this was wrong, but they were taking care of themselves at someone else's expense as so many do...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

How nice that so many are willing to take you into their confidence.  So you have spoken to the majority of Seniors in this country and they have told you this.. My.. when do you have time to post on this forum?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

If my friends and relatives are doing this it is obvious to me that this shift in wealth is happening on a massive scale nationwide.  BTW, have you noticed how quiet it is here since members were challenged on this matter?


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

I think they feel, as I do, that this is much ado about nothing.

But just in the outside chance they aren't here's step by step instructions.   Thanks for the pubic service thread Ralphy!

http://info.legalzoom.com/shelter-assets-nursing-home-care-costs-23688.html

[h=4]Step 1[/h]Give monetary gifts to your loved ones before you get sick. Of course, there’s no way to know with certainty if or when you will need nursing home care, but giving gifts to your family members well ahead of time helps protect the money from creditors seeking to collect after your death. In the case of Medicaid, any assets you transfer within the five years prior to entering a care facility are subject to seizure after your death. Transferring funds before you fall ill shelters your money and ensures your family members can legally keep the gifts they receive.

[h=4]Step 2[/h]Hire an attorney to draft a “life estate” for your real estate, naming you as the life tenant and a loved one you trust as the remainderman, with future ownership interest in the property. As a life tenant, you retain the right to continue living in your home until your death. After your death, ownership in the property is transferred to your loved one, which prevents the state from making a claim against it. If you create a life estate and transfer real estate, you’ll incur no penalty if you enter a nursing home, provided the transfer occurred at least five years before your illness. If you enter a nursing home within that five-year window, however, you may incur a financial penalty for transferring property that would otherwise have been available for estate recovery.


[h=4]Step 3[/h]Place liquid assets into an annuity. Some states, such as Colorado, do not count periodic payouts from annuities when determining Medicaid eligibility. Thus, you can transfer your assets into an annuity and qualify for Medicaid-covered nursing home care without having to spend down your assets. If your state does consider annuity payouts when determining Medicaid eligibility, you can still safely transfer assets into an annuity, but you cannot use Medicaid's services for a specific period of time following the transfer.


[h=4]Step 4[/h]Transfer a portion of your monthly income to your spouse. The Federal Spousal Impoverishment Act protects the spouses of nursing home patients by permitting them to exclude their own income when paying for a spouse's nursing home care. If your spouse's income is less than the amount your state exempts, you can direct a portion of your income to your spouse to bridge the gap. The income you transfer to your spouse for monthly maintenance is exempt income and sheltered under federal law.


[h=4]Step 5[/h]Shelter your money through an irrevocable trust. Unlike a living trust, an irrevocable trust is exempt from nursing home costs. You cannot receive principal from the irrevocable trust, but the periodic interest and dividends you receive from the trust are safe from seizure.


[h=4]Step 6[/h]Place your assets and your spouse’s assets into a “pour-over” trust. This type of trust protects the assets from seizure while still allowing you access to the money. Create or modify your wills to include a testamentary trust providing for the welfare of the surviving spouse. Although a portion of the funds from the original trust “pour over” into the deceased spouse's estate, the testamentary trust included in his will protects that money from being seized to pay nursing home expenses. This provides financial protection for both you and your spouse regardless of which of you dies first.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Are you kidding?!  This is the financial future of the country we are talking about?   The cost of nursing home care in this country is astronomical and will go out of sight soon. No, they don't want to tell us because they are guilty and they know it, but they aren't going to make it available again for their care, count on that...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

I'm done with this Ralphy..... rant on if you like..


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Did you read those steps?   Protection of a spouse is allowed but the steps went a lot further.  I have a sister in a nursing home who you are now paying for while her kids are enjoying a million dollars in property and other asserts.  Your tax money at work..


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Well....  if large corporations can cheat... so can the rest of us...


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2015)

And that is why we need out tax codes all rewritten so the corporations and wealthy can no longer hide their wealth from the tax man for the US.   Corporations can avoid taxes if their production and facilities leave the US.   Wealthy can avoid taxes if the money they earn overseas never reach the US shores.

Revised tax code can address these ways of cheating the US of businesses and industries to avoid high taxes.   So the US gets none but we would be better off with lower taxes that we do control.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

The whole system allows for abuse, and my friends and relatives are abusing it in their own small way,  but that doesn't make it right...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

Well... thanks for pointing this out...  Guess I'll take a look at the steps..  lol!


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2015)

Well, you could put my name on whatever you got as I don't plan on dying as I see no point to it...


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## Sid N (Dec 15, 2015)

Yea I agree, it's greedy seniors just as it was those greedy unqualified home buyers causing the meltdown. I mean who did these people think they were ? Actually wanting to retire on the money they paid in for 50 or more years (while some still are) and actually wanting to buy a house ? Even when in fact only about 1 in 4 have achieved because the rest just...own a mortgage, not a house. 

I mean let's look at America's truly great values. Buying one house with a 30 year mortgage...paying or 3. Taxing capital at 20% just up from 15% and taxing your best labor from 30-40%. 95% of all income growth since 2007 going to the most deserving top 5% of income earners. 1/3 of the fortune 500 paying no federal taxes at all. Taxpayers subsidizing multi-billion agric. conglomerates and oil industries, a corn industry that get billion$ from the govt. and a protective tariff against foreign competition that is more efficient. Taxpayers taking the risk for bankers and hedge funds that take the profits and claim not enough capital to take the losses. Socialism for the rich...capitalism for the poor.

Now those are truly America's superior values of a growing, proper and predominantly ethical, dutiful, Christian society. Yep, going to church on Sunday and on Monday, selling your neighbor an $8,000 job for $12,000. Grown successful men sitting in the pew next to you, cheating on their taxes and maybe even their wives.

The answer ? No, we are in for what Japan had and still does...a lost decade or more. The solution...Solient Green !!


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2015)

And also... those damn greedy Seniors actually wanting to pass the fruits of their life long labors on to their children and grandchildren.. when it would be so much better used in the hands of large Healthcare conglomerates and their shareholders...   shame on them.


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## Sid N (Dec 15, 2015)

America is at a crossroads. Is economy to serve society as apparently the political left feels it should, particularly in Canada and Europe and somewhat in the US, or is society to serve the economy, as it seems the political right in the US and elsewhere, feels it should ? With the rhetorical denigration (propaganda) that anything govt. must do to force the former, called socialism which of course, it is not and with the right promoting less regulation and less return on the soc. sec. dollar and particularly in banking and calling their policies, a free market which it is not, which road will America take ? I fear for the youth and their prospects if the right is further allowed to continue their policies started by Reagan...well into our future.


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## Butterfly (Dec 15, 2015)

Gotta watch out for those greedy seniors wanting to collect the social security benefits to which they have paid in all their lives!


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 16, 2015)

Medicaid nursing home care was meant for those who have no other resources to pay for their care, and that is why there is a five year look back.  Now that everybody is aware of this they are hiding the assets in time.  This is essentially "legal" stealing that you don't want to 'fess up to here...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Medicaid nursing home care was meant for those who have no other resources to pay for their care, and that is why there is a five year look back.  Now that everybody is aware of this they are hiding the assets in time.  This is essentially "legal" stealing that you don't want to 'fess up to here...



Stealing?  If you consider it stealing to circumvent a rigged and unfair system to be stealing.. 

What part of Healthcare for all.. is it the you don't understand.  Seniors shouldn't have to spend every penny they have earned to pay for it.  It should be provided. This is just one more way the Right siphons money from the middle and shifts it to the top.   Rather than being able to keep the wealth in the middle sector by passing it along to our heirs, we are forced to give it to the wealthy and large corporations owning and operating these facilities for a profit.  More wealth transfer.. moving it out of middle class hands.. and adding to the elimination of the middle class...    Take a fraction of that bloated defense budget.. and eliminated some of the Corporates subsidies and tax loopholes and we could care for our citizens from the cradle to the grave.  And why is that a bad thing?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 16, 2015)

We should stop pointing the finger in different directions and start pointing it at ourselves...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> We should stop pointing the finger in different directions and start pointing it at ourselves...



No...  I don't think so...  More power to Seniors who are able to keep what they've earned and pass it down to their heirs..  We need to provide for our elderly,  not take every penny they have.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 16, 2015)

You are not taking it from the elderly but allowing their children to grab it who didn't earn it!


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## BobF (Dec 16, 2015)

Then lets fix the entire tax code to prevent the rich from being able to hide all their wealth and the industries from locating their headquarters and facilities overseas so they can hide any profits from the current US rip off rates.   Apparently it is a lot cheaper overseas for the corporate taxes and their labor rates are so much less than in the US and we are demanding more wages to offset the higher costs of everything and the prices are just going up and up and up.   Why is that?   Poor money management by the government would be one reason.   Poor tax management would be another reason as that can cause price rises to stay in business.

It does not matter who ends up in control, our government is in need of a complete cleanup and maybe reduction in size.   If better outside methods can be found we should use them rather than to increase the size of the government with their overpaid employees and plenty of benefits not available to the general public.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> You are not taking it from the elderly but allowing their children to grab it who didn't earn it!



Do you not believe a person should be able to Will their money to their heirs?  OR.. since no heirs have earned it.. maybe we should make all inheritance illegal and simply transfer all our money to the government when we die.


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## Karen99 (Dec 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Do you not believe a person should be able to Will their money to their heirs?  OR.. since no heirs have earned it.. maybe we should make all inheritance illegal and simply transfer all our money to the government when we die.



:lol1::clap:


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## fishfulthinking (Dec 16, 2015)

there will be an obvious strain put on our seniors care, housing, and health due to the mass called the "baby boomers" here.  I feel our Canadian government is ill prepared.  Seniors will be victims.


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## Don M. (Dec 16, 2015)

fishfulthinking said:


> there will be an obvious strain put on our seniors care, housing, and health due to the mass called the "baby boomers" here.  I feel our Canadian government is ill prepared.  Seniors will be victims.



This will certainly happen in the future.  As more are living longer, and the younger peoples wages remain stagnant, our social programs are going to become increasingly stressed.  Here, in the U.S., Medicare will be the first program to feel the pinch....probably within the next 8 or 10 years.  Governments just keep pushing these issues further down the road, with no long term plans for adjusting for demographics.


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## fishfulthinking (Dec 16, 2015)

Don M. said:


> This will certainly happen in the future.  As more are living longer, and the younger peoples wages remain stagnant, our social programs are going to become increasingly stressed.  Here, in the U.S., Medicare will be the first program to feel the pinch....probably within the next 8 or 10 years.  Governments just keep pushing these issues further down the road, with no long term plans for adjusting for demographics.



yes with the onslaught of ~71 million over the next 20 or so years hitting the "senior" age, it's going to get painful.  I know in this city we have a serious lack of senior's housing.  Both assisted and independent, so where does this leave the seniors who can't live in their own homes?  I know we have a huge strain already on our hospitals, and our health care is going to be hit hard as these "boomer/seniors age.  Old age pension is barely covering food, never mind rent/mortgage payments (lets face it not all seniors are going to be mortgage free) and health care (outside of what our healthcare covers and worse for those in the USA).  Nobody wants to hire a senior so what about programs for seniors oh right, our Canadian government would rather legalize pot.  Perhaps it will just be a bunch of pot smoking old folks out there in another few years.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 16, 2015)

fishfulthinking said:


> there will be an obvious strain put on our seniors care, housing, and health due to the mass called the "baby boomers" here.  I feel our Canadian government is ill prepared.  Seniors will be victims.




I have a question for our non-American members..  Who pays for Seniors long term care in nursing homes?


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## Warrigal (Dec 16, 2015)

The answer depends on the means of the individual senior.

There is a government subsidy for most, and the level of subsidy depends on the level of care - high dependency beds attract the highest level of subsidy in line with the extra cost of the care.

The resident is required to make a co-payment, again depending on their means. For people without assets such as a home of their own whose only income is the aged pension, the co-payment is 85% of the pension, The remaining 15% is for personal expenses. My auntie was one of these. My mother on the other hand was better off. She had two income sources - Dad's state superannuation pension which continued after his death for the rest of her life and a part aged pension. Her co-payment was higher than 85% of the full pension but she still had enough left over for her personal needs and to pay for private health insurance. 

Her house was sold and most of the cash assets were then deposited as an accommodation bond with the care provider. They were entitled to keep the interest on the bond plus they were allowed to take up to $13,500 over 5 years in 6 monthly installments. It was this income from the accommodation bonds that was used to fund new beds and up grades to older facilities.

When she died, what was left was returned to her estate.

This system works well. All care providers receiving government subsidy are required to make available a certain number of beds for poorer pensioners.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 17, 2015)

Finally, a serious look at how granny's care should be paid for that is fair to granny and the government.  We should look at adopting this system...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 17, 2015)

I agree..  Granny SHOULD be required to have some cost.. but seriously,  NH care is around $5000 a month..  Our system requires those with some assets to pay the full amount, until they have nothing.  It doesn't take long before everything granny has saved over the years is gone..  Is it a wonder granny tries to hide her assets?   As I said.. this is nothing more than a systematic transfer of wealth from the middle class up to the top.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 17, 2015)

No, it is a systematic transfer of money to children who didn't earn it and shouldn't be entitled to it...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 17, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> No, it is a systematic transfer of money to children who didn't earn it and shouldn't be entitled to it...



That's Bull$hit and you know it.     Better the Uber wealthy get it to transfer their billions to their entitled spoiled brats like Paris Hilton who do NOTHING.. than for average people to inherit their parents small nest eggs by comparison... People who would use it to educate their kids.. and other useful things.   Blow it Ralphy.  You are just baiting now... and you know it.    Since when did you become a shill for the "for Profit" health industry?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 17, 2015)

Not baiting, just continuing to force people to look at their complicity in making all of us pay for their mom or granny. Continuing to point the finger at others, who should be regulated better, does not absolve them...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 17, 2015)

Go away Ralphy....  We have beaten this horse to a pulp...  You blame granny...  I don't... I blame a rigged system.  Victim blaming is bad form.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 17, 2015)

She is only a victim of her greedy children or her own lack of concern for the taxpayer who will foot her bill...


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## BobF (Dec 17, 2015)

For my mothers case, she lived into her nineties but when in her late 70's, while living in a elder shelter place after selling her house, she fell and could no longer live independently.    So my sister took mom to several places and helped her decide on which to take.   It was a nice place, built for such use and designed properly.

To get in mom had to give her SS, insurances, banks accounts, and become poor.    That meant that some money she had set aside to distribute to the five kids was gone too.   No biggie at all, just a fact.   So that was something that should have been set aside without her name on it years earlier.

I lived half way across the US but every chance I got I would go visit her.   She seemed to enjoy the surroundings and care.   Her doctor would come and visit on a frequent schedule.   I was there one afternoon when he walked in.   A pretty nice man to talk to.  

They were fed well, accommodated well, had frequent laundry and fresh sheets on a schedule.   They were taken into the shower frequently.   Occasionally they had trips on the homes buses to go see the 'colors' of the fall, or blossoms of spring.   It was in general a very nice place for all.   There was on section for those of mental failures where they were kept locked in with supervisors to care for them.

I was pleased for her keeping and had no problems that she had to become technically poor in order to be able to enter.   At her age in the 80's I doubt that the never exposed amount she had set aside for the five of us was really too great.   If anyone was wrong it was her financial adviser that did not make sure she distributed prior to the cut off date.    Knowing that mom and dad grew up through the depression, 2 world wars, days when houses were in the below $10,000 prices but now selling for higher that $100,000 (same house), 5 kids, any thing they had set aside would be small compared to the current prices of things.   Knowing they had our interest in mind was the important thing for me.

She was well cared for, lived to 97, seemed to be OK until her last year or so when we could see her fail.

So for me.   Do I blame my mother?    Not at all.    Do I blame the system?    No.    She did quite well within the system.   Should things be changed?    Maybe.   Depends on how it might be changed.    Nothing should be changed to where nobody has to plan ahead.   Everybody gets to have the same care for free is wrong.   Too many variables that need sorted out.   But how?

Wealthy can afford to hide wealth, the lower income can not.   Not a healthy way to go.   How do we get the lower income folks to set aside funds for after they retire by choice or by law?    No way.    No guarantee that all will live alike while working or in retirement.   Really don't want that type of government to be in charge either.   I see no place in this world where all can live alike except in pure poverty conditions.   We don't really want that to be the only way for all to live.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 17, 2015)

Still don't understand why you think the kids should get some assets while others have to pay for mom's care. This has eluded this conversation and continues to do so.  However, I appreciate your family's story and I will share one with you.  Yesterday I made a visit to my demented sister who lives in the grandest nursing home in the state and it reminds me of an elegant hotel.  She and her late husband did very well and had well over two million in assets. She had to promise the home so much up front before they transferred her to Medicaid, and I am not privy to the amount.  However, she got about two million out of her name which was split between adult children now in their fifties and are doing very well The only difference in her great care, and almost constant entertainment, is that she has to share a room whereas before she had a private one.  I have told my relatives that this is wrong, as the guy cleaning the toilets in the place is helping to,pay fort their mother's care, but this falls on deaf ears...


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## BobF (Dec 17, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Still don't understand why you think the kids should get some assets while others have to pay for mom's care. This has eluded this conversation and continues to do so.  However, I appreciate your family's story and I will share one with you.  Yesterday I made a visit to my demented sister who lives in the grandest nursing home in the state and it reminds me of an elegant hotel.  She and her late husband did very well and had well over two million in assets. She had to promise the home so much up front before they transferred her to Medicaid, and I am not privy to the amount.  However, she got about two million out of her name which was split between adult children now in their fifties and are doing very well The only difference in her great care, and almost constant entertainment, is that she has to share a room whereas before she had a private one.  I have told my relatives that this is wrong, as the guy cleaning the toilets in the place is helping to,pay fort their mother's care, but this falls on deaf ears...



For beginners, you quote me wrongly.   I never said we kids deserved to get inheritance at all.    I commented that it was my  mothers advisers that failed to advise her to do that.   All of us are doing OK on our own ways of working, investing, saving, insurance plans, and hopes to be able to finish our lives at home, even if sick.   Big problem these days is that without family living close by it may not be possible to do as in the older days, family took over the care of the sick and helpless.  My mother took in her father and tended him when he became helpless.   He died in her home.   Now that would be a big relief for the government if we fell back on those older ways of doing things.   And yes, after many years of tending for herself after dad died, she did end up sharing a room.   It did not seem to bother her one bit.

Those rules are intended to keep the well to do ones from ripping off the government taxpayers inputs when not needed.   I guess in some ways it works but in other ways not so much.   Things to consider to be changed.   Seems that the very rich could be able to purchase a insurance plan that would eliminate all the selling and such and just have a decent retirement that includes medical help at the same time.   My older brother was one that had such a insurance for himself and his wife in Texas.   I went to visit him and his wife for their 50th anniversary.    It was a fine residence where people were living, coming and going, quite freely.   If they became handicapped they would be taken care of.  If they became sick they would be moved to a healthy care part of the operation and would have access to daily watching, doctors, transport to hospitals, funerals could be arranged.    Quite an operation going their.    Wish I had my brothers arrangements but he was much better paid than many of us.    He worked for the US government agencies for many years and had gone up the pay scale for quite a bit more pocket money and personal improvements like access to such insurances.

I am happy with what I have been able to do for myself, wife, and kids.   Myself and my son and daughter also worked for the government, but it was called military duty.   My older brother also worked military in Korea times but then he got an opportunity to work in the political types of government work like FAA.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 18, 2015)

One can stay at home with supportive services coming in if they can afford them, such as a maid service, Meals on Wheels, etc.  However, dementia makes that impossible.  Long term care insurance has to be bought at a fairly young and is very expensive. A facility that will take you from independent living  to nursing home care is one that you mentioned, but you must provide the facility with a small fortune.  May we all die in our sleep before we have to face leaving our homes...


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## Warrigal (Dec 18, 2015)

> May we all die in our sleep before we have to face leaving our homes...



Is this something that is weighing on your mind Ralphy?


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 18, 2015)

Absolutely, as I have two older sisters with dementia.  I seemed to have not been fated for dementia (fingers tightly crossed) and want to stay where I am hiring a minimum amount of help at some point, and living in a condo means that I don't have to worry about taking care of the outside of the building or the grounds, though I have done a lot of gardening in the past and supervise the help on the trimming and pruning of the shrubs and trees that I have put in over the years with the approval of the condo board.  So, as long as I can dress and bath myself, I want to live, but when I can't, I hope to be gone, one way or another...


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## Warrigal (Dec 18, 2015)

I firmly believe that there is no point anticipating something unless  by doing so we can make a positive difference. My family history would indicate that if I don't have a fatal heart attack or stroke I will probably descend gradually into senile dementia. It doesn't actually worry me because I've travelled that journey already with my mum and mother in law. It's not as bad as we imagine provided the care is good.

If you are worried I suggest that you start looking around at available facilities to educate yourself about the standards of care. Talk to your doctor too because you could be worrying excessively about your likely future.

Your plan to stay where you are is a sound one. Take advantage of any help that you need and enjoy every day as it comes.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 18, 2015)

I have also been visiting nursing homes over the years starting with my mother, who spent several years in one after breaking a hip in her eighties.  I noticed then, and it holds true today, that there are few men there, as our life expectancy is much lower, thank goodness.  I have no desire to wind up in one with the best of care, and it couldn't be any better than my sister's.  If I have the courage, I will self deliver should I face a lingering and totally dependent end...


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## Warrigal (Dec 18, 2015)

Until then, don't overthink it.
It is counter productive to enjoying the good years ahead of you.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 18, 2015)

Thanks, and I enjoy myself to the max as a hedonist, and the visits to the nursing home are just a reminder to do so...


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