# Illegal immigration



## AZ Jim (Jan 23, 2015)

Here is the south land  it is a major problem.  I am all for immigration as long as it is LEGAL immigration.  It is amazing how our soft hearts has allowed the situation to get worse almost daily.  I am a Democrat and I know some of my party disagree with me on this issue but I see the problems here too often.  We have many illegals who have criminal pasts in Mexico and continue their lawlessness here.  Just now we have this case (though we have many) which points up our failure to protect ourselves from this menace. 

http://www.kpho.com/story/27911249/suspect-caught-in-deadly-mesa-store-shooting

I welcome your thoughts on this.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 23, 2015)

It's those same soft hearts that will eventually lead to the complete breakdown of the U.S. ...


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## darroll (Jan 23, 2015)

In California they don't even bother to learn English.

Here they seem to be the only people that work and the state pampers them.

We needed a new garage door, guess who put it in? And this is an old established local company.


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## Josiah (Jan 23, 2015)

I have no argument with what you're saying Jim, but are you saying there should not be a path to citizenship for illegals who have been in this country a long time without any sort of criminal record beside their immigration status?


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## tnthomas (Jan 23, 2015)

As you all know, the problem has been growing since the 1980s, and both political parties have done little more than paying Lip Service.    Both parties have no desire to provide a real solution(ie: close off illegal entry).  

Too messy for limp wristed politicians.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 23, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I have no argument with what you're saying Jim, but are you saying there should not be a path to citizenship for illegals who have been in this country a long time without any sort of criminal record beside their immigration status?



No.  That is no longer possible.  I do believe we should use legal means to assure us we are not allowing lawlessness to reign in our streets.  By whatever means persons seeking citizenship should have a clean record and be willing to qualify as did the Jews, Italians, polish that came before them.


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## Sid (Jan 23, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I have no argument with what you're saying Jim, but are you saying there should not be a path to citizenship for illegals who have been in this country a long time without any sort of criminal record beside their immigration status?





         Why should they be put ahead of those who chose to take the legal route?

         Edit add on.

         If memory serves me right an immigration reform bill was signed by Reagan.

         I didn't think it a good idea then, I still don't. It didn't work it isn't working it won't work.


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## Don M. (Jan 23, 2015)

I have no sympathy for those whose first action in this nation is to violate our immigration laws....while those trying to enter legally often wait months or years to become part of this nation.  These illegals take jobs our own people could do, and cost us billions per year in the crime they engage in.  Of course, our politicians are unwilling to do anything about it, because there are wealthy campaign donors who profit off the low wages these illegals will work for.  

We are truly being Invaded.  Recent reports indicate that California will soon have a Mexican majority, and Arizona, New Mexico, perhaps even Texas may follow suit.  The Mexican organization La Raza still feels that these territories were taken illegally from Mexico during the Spanish/American war, and they are determined to get them back...one way or another....they refer to the American SW as Aztlan, and consider it to still be part of Mexico.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 23, 2015)

> " The Mexican organization La Raza still feels that these territories  were taken illegally from Mexico during the Spanish/American war, and  they are determined to get them back...one way or another....they refer  to the American SW as Aztlan, and consider it to still be part of  Mexico"



Don, Actually the Spanish American war was between SPAIN and the US, it had nothing to do with Mexico..


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## Don M. (Jan 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> "   The Mexican organization La Raza still feels that these territories  were taken illegally from Mexico during the Spanish/American war, and  they are determined to get them back...one way or another....they refer  to the American SW as Aztlan, and consider it to still be part of  Mexico"
> 
> Actually the Spanish American war was between SPAIN and the US.



OOPS...My Bad...I meant the Mexican American War of 1846-1848...but then, I would have thought that the Intent was clear.  At any rate, it appears that the Only politician in the U.S. that understands the ramifications of this illegal immigration is Jan Brewer, but I guess she reached her term limits.  Now, if we could only get Sheriff Arapio to take over the Justice Department, perhaps this flow of illegals could be slowed.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 24, 2015)

I believe that if someone is here illegally and they are committing crimes, they should be immediately deported. 

Did you know that on average it costs about $23,480 to deport one person?


http://www.businessinsider.com/depo...ants-would-cost-a-whopping-285-billion-2012-1


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## BobF (Jan 24, 2015)

Back a few years we had a seasonal way for the Mexicans and others to legally come into the US, take jobs, then after a certain number of months return to their homes again and wait till next year to come back through the US doing those seasonal farm jobs.

I know it well, had some friends from Mexico doing that.   But the name flashed in my mind and now is lost.  Some farms had small cottages for them to stay in during planting or harvest.    

Back for a change - Braceros, is the name I remember.


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## BobF (Jan 24, 2015)

The problem we are having here in Arizona is our government that will release a killer back to the streets.   That already convicted person needed to be released?    Hard to  understand that sort of logic.   He just killed another person over something like slow service when ordering a pack of cigarettes.   A young clerk is now dead for no reason.   This illegal person does not deserve to be held and retried again.   He should be shot on site and let the story end there.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I believe that if someone is here illegally and they are committing crimes, they should be immediately deported.
> 
> Did you know that on average it costs about $23,480 to deport one person?



I could easily do it for only $1,276.99 (S&H not included).


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## Don M. (Jan 24, 2015)

BobF said:


> Back a few years we had a seasonal way for the Mexicans and others to legally come into the US, take jobs, then after a certain number of months return to their homes again and wait till next year to come back through the US doing those seasonal farm jobs.
> 
> I know it well, had some friends from Mexico doing that.   But the name flashed in my mind and now is lost.  Some farms had small cottages for them to stay in during planting or harvest.
> 
> Back for a change - Braceros, is the name I remember.



That's right...Migrant Farm Workers from Mexico have been a part of U.S. agriculture for decades.  In years past, these workers came across the border "legally", and followed the harvests for a few months, then returned home, and lived decently on the wages they made.  They were part of a "Win/Win" process that allowed our farmers to produce crops at a reasonable price, and gave these workers more money than they could make in Mexico.  Now, however, we have thousands of illegals swarming across our borders who come here either to feed off our Government programs, or engage in illegal drug activity, etc.  It costs this nation Billions per year to support these illegals, and to try to stem the damage they and their "Cartels" are doing to our society.


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## BobF (Jan 24, 2015)

China is filled with wealthy in certain districts and very poor in the rest of the country.   I will post an article about China and it has predictions that China must change it ways of governing and working with its people or in the future their current successes will wither and fail.
...............................
http://www.economist.com/node/21543537

*China*

*The paradox of prosperity*

*For China’s rise to continue, the country needs to move away from the model that has served it so well*

                      Jan 28th 2012 

  IN THIS issue we launch a weekly section devoted to China. It is the  first time since we began our detailed coverage of the United States in  1942 that we have singled out a country in this way. The principal  reason is that China is now an economic superpower and is fast becoming a  military force capable of unsettling America. But our interest in China  lies also in its politics: it is governed by a system that is out of  step with global norms. In ways that were never true of post-war Japan  and may never be true of India, China will both fascinate and agitate  the rest of the world for a long time to come.

 Only 20 years ago, China was a long way from being a global  superpower. After the protests in Tiananmen Square led to a massacre in  1989, its economic reforms were under threat from conservatives and it  faced international isolation. Then in early 1992, like an emperor  undertaking a progress, the late Deng Xiaoping set out on a “southern  tour” of the most reform-minded provinces. An astonishing endorsement of  reform, it was a masterstroke from the man who made modern China. The  economy has barely looked back since.
              In this section

   Compared with the rich world's recent rocky times, China's progress  has been relentless. Yet not far beneath the surface, society is  churning. Recent village unrest in Wukan in Guangdong, one province that  Deng toured all those years ago; ethnic strife this week in Tibetan  areas of Sichuan; the gnawing fear of a house-price crash: all are signs  of the centrifugal forces making the Communist Party's job so hard.
 The party's instinct, born out of all those years of success, is to  tighten its grip. So dissidents such as Yu Jie, who alleges he was  tortured by security agents and has just left China for America, are  harassed. Yet that reflex will make the party's job harder. It needs  instead to master the art of letting go.

*China's third revolution*

 The argument goes back to Deng's insight that without economic  growth, the Communist Party would be history, like its brethren in the  Soviet Union and eastern Europe. His reforms replaced a failing  political ideology with a new economic legitimacy. The party's cadres  set about remaking China with an energy and single-mindedness that have  made some Westerners get in touch with their inner authoritarian. The  bureaucrats not only reformed China's monstrously inefficient  state-owned enterprises, but also introduced some meritocracy to  appointments.

 That mix of political control and market reform has yielded huge  benefits. China's rise over the past two decades has been more  impressive than any burst of economic development ever. Annual economic  growth has averaged 10% a year and 440m Chinese have lifted themselves  out of poverty—the biggest reduction of poverty in history.

 Yet for China's rise to continue, the model cannot remain the same. That's because China, and the world, are changing.

 China is weathering the global crisis well. But to sustain a high  growth rate, the economy needs to shift away from investment and exports  towards domestic consumption. That transition depends on a fairer  division of the spoils of growth. At present, China's banks shovel  workers' savings into state-owned enterprises, depriving workers of  spending power and private companies of capital. As a result, just when  some of the other ingredients of China's boom, such as cheap land and  labour, are becoming scarcer, the government is wasting capital on a  vast scale. Freeing up the financial system would give consumers more  spending power and improve the allocation of capital.

*Even today's modest slowdown is causing unrest (see article).  Many people feel that too little of the country's spectacular growth is  trickling down to them. Migrant workers who seek employment in the city  are treated as second-class citizens, with poor access to health care  and education. Land grabs by local officials are a huge source of anger.  Unrestrained industrialisation is poisoning crops and people. Growing  corruption is causing fury. And angry people can talk to each other, as  they never could before, through the internet.*

 Party officials cite growing unrest as evidence of the dangers of  liberalisation. Migration, they argue, may be a source of growth, but it  is also a cause of instability. Workers' protests disrupt production  and threaten prosperity. The stirrings of civil society contain the  seeds of chaos. Officials are particularly alive to these dangers in a  year in which a new generation of leaders will take power.

 That bias towards control is understandable, and not merely  self-interested. Patriots can plausibly argue that most people have  plenty of space to live as individuals and value stability more than  rights and freedoms: the Arab spring, after all, had few echoes in  China.

 Yet there are rights which Chinese people evidently do want. Migrant  workers would like to keep their limited rights to education, health and  pensions as they move around the country. And freedom to organise can  help, not hinder, the country's economic rise. Labour unions help  industrial peace by discouraging wildcat strikes. Pressure groups can  keep a check on corruption. Temples, monasteries, churches and mosques  can give prosperous Chinese a motive to help provide welfare. Religious  and cultural organisations can offer people meaning to life beyond the  insatiable hunger for rapid economic growth.

*Our business now
*
 China's bloody past has taught the Communist Party to fear chaos  above all. But history's other lesson is that those who cling to  absolute power end up with none. The paradox, as some within the party  are coming to realise, is that for China to succeed it must move away  from the formula that has served it so well.

 This is a matter of more than intellectual interest to those outside  China. Whether the country continues as an authoritarian colossus,  stagnates, disintegrates, or, as we would wish, becomes both freer and  more prosperous will not just determine China's future, but shape the  rest of the world's too.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 24, 2015)

The problem with deportation is it's a turnstile thing, they come right back in.  Long prison sentences for these killers, rapists, robbery illegals will control them at least while incarcerated.  Life with no chance of parole for murder *mandatory* (no soft judges decisions).


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## darroll (Jan 24, 2015)

We keep raising the minimum wage.
The Illegals work for half that.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The problem with deportation is it's a turnstile thing, they come right back in.  Long prison sentences for these killers, rapists, robbery illegals will control them at least while incarcerated.  Life with no chance of parole for murder *mandatory* (no soft judges decisions).



Doesn't it cost us $30,000 a year to house one prisoner?


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## BobF (Jan 24, 2015)

darroll said:


> We keep raising the minimum wage.
> The Illegals work for half that.



That may be true as they are more concerned about making money than about political minimum raises.   

In my mind, these comments about minimum raises and who decides what they might be is being wrongly done.   A minimum raise should reflect the least one can earn and live in that area.   Least in that area would mean minimum housing, minimum food, and little else at all.  It should not be used to force employers to pay more than they can afford as that causes  raises in prices or business closings.   If prices raise to keep a business going then a new minimum raise gets started and around and around we go.   What is considered minimum wage in one area would be all wrong in a different area.   We need to keep the politicians out of our lives and allow the economy to find its own level and settle down.


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## hollydolly (Jan 24, 2015)

We have exactly the same problem as you all in the US, here in the UK.._exactly_...and the same reasons are given for allowing them to come in (despite the fact they may have nowhere to live, or job or even be vetted properly with regard their criminal background,)  that they work for half the wages. Yes of course they'll work for less money because a huge proportion of them are living often 12 or many more to a property,  they.. unlike the indigenous population are not struggling to afford  outrageously high mortgages or rents on a minimum wage or less.  They even receive child benefit for children that are not even living here in this country

 If all of British citizens had a dozen people living with us  helping with our mortgages we could all afford to work for minimum wage or less. 

In the meantime the infrastructure of this country is on a point of collapse particularly in our cities.  In some inner city schools there's is up to 50 children in one class, and not a single child among them who can speak English and what's even more worrying is that oftentimes the majority of those children speak different languages from each other. It's not been unknown for a single teacher to be attempting to tutor a class of 50 with over 40 different languages being spoken by the children , and not one of them English. Talk about the tower of Babel ?

I am not a racist..at least I hope I'm not, I have lived and worked in several different countries myself  and I do agree that every country needs immigrants who are willing to work hard shoulder to shoulder with the indigenous folks...but the equality scales in the UK are more  tipped for the benefits of the immigrants,  which creates a racial feeling of unrest amongst so many.





The only difference between our situation and yours is that ours are not Mexicans.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> It's those same soft hearts that will eventually lead to the complete breakdown of the U.S. ...



I can be soft-hearted, but I'm also level-headed (you can use my head to set your beer on) when it comes to certain circumstances.  There has to be laws in place to allow for immigration, but to keep out known criminals, hell, we have enough of our own don't we.  The attitude of "come one come all" to the land of opportunity just doesn't work here anymore.  We have things we need to get straightened out before we allow more people to come in.  I mean, if your own house isn't in order, are you going to invite more people to move in?  Wouldn't that just ad to your family difficulties?  Seems more then likely it would.  Although there is always the exception I suppose.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 24, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> We have exactly the same problem as you all in the US, here in the UK.._exactly_...and the same reasons are given for allowing them to come in (despite the fact they may have nowhere to live, or job or even be vetted properly with regard their criminal background,)  that they work for half the wages. Yes of course they'll work for less money because a huge proportion of them are living often 12 or many more to a property,  they.. unlike the indigenous population are not struggling to afford  outrageously high mortgages or rents on a minimum wage or less.  They even receive child benefit for children that are not even living
> 
> If all of Brtisih citizens had a dozen people living with us  helping with our mortgages we could all afford to work for minimum wage or less.
> 
> ...



Immigration built America for the most part.  But the immigration laws didn't keep up with the continuing influx.  I'm not saying we should have closed the doors, just kept the "door" which folks had to go through the red-tape to come through.  It's all out of hand, we dropped the ball, we ignored the problem until it's too big to ignore, and too big to fix in any way that will be truly good for America.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Doesn't it cost us $30,000 a year to house one prisoner?



Don't know QS but how much is our life worth?  Safety comes when those kind are in prison.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 24, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Immigration built America for the most part.  But the immigration laws didn't keep up with the continuing influx.  I'm not saying we should have closed the doors, just kept the "door" which folks had to go through the red-tape to come through.  It's all out of hand, we dropped the ball, we ignored the problem until it's too big to ignore, and too big to fix in any way that will be truly good for America.



It was LEGAL, regulated  immigration.  New immigrants had to learn English, civics and be law abiding.  I love LEGAL immigration.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 24, 2015)

My family came here from Germany in the late 1800's early 1900's.   All you needed then was the price of passage and a family to sponsor you.  You didn't need permission..  You came through Ellis Island, with your sponsorship papers, they gave you a really quick physical.. those not passing it were put back on the boat.. those passing were sent on their way.   I know this because my grandmother was 11 years old and remembered it well.  She told me all about her passage here and Ellis Island..


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## SifuPhil (Jan 24, 2015)

After WWI immigration policies changed. Instead of being  inspected only at Ellis Island, many immigrants had to work with U.S  government offices in their home countries to get medical and legal  inspections before they left.

In effect, it started becoming harder to immigrate.


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## BobF (Jan 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> My family came here from Germany in the late 1800's early 1900's.   All you needed then was the price of passage and a family to sponsor you.  You didn't need permission..  You came through Ellis Island, with your sponsorship papers, they gave you a really quick physical.. those not passing it were put back on the boat.. those passing were sent on their way.   I know this because my grandmother was 11 years old and remembered it well.  She told me all about her passage here and Ellis Island..



My grandfather and two of his brothers both came in the late 1800's.    My grandfather stopped in Ohio, one brother was found in Pennsylvania, the other brother I never heard of or where he settled.

But one thing for sure back then.   No place was so crowded that there was no place for them to go.    And young as they were, there were plenty of places to find work and learn careers.   They were all young, just out of the German army.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 24, 2015)

That's such a shame that young store clerk lost his life for no reason like that.  Illegals should be deported for their first crime in America, and not allowed to come back after that.  In this case, somebody wouldn't have lost their life over a pack of smokes.  I'm of the eye for an eye mindset, if he killed somebody in cold blood like that, then he should received the death penalty....and not 12 years later either.  We don't need to give them the luxuries of prison life until they die from old age, why waste the money?

I worked with many immigrants from Mexico, who did what they needed to become legal citizens, and they were proud to be American.  I felt bad for one guy, he was a good worker and a nice person.  Guess he just had to take one final step to become a citizen, he was almost there.  Nobody knew that he was not legal.  Well, during a friendly talk with the manager, he mentioned his excitement about becoming an American citizen so soon.  He was fired, the company did not employ illegals.


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## Lady (Jan 24, 2015)

We have a problem here in the Uk also with illegal immigrants coming in from Paris ,they wait at docks and when vehcles like 
Lorries stop they climb inside or Underneath .If they do not get spotted they get off in England and melt in to town and cities .
Sometimes when the Lorries are going fast down a motorway they fall off and Die ,They must be So desperate to risk their lives ..
there is now a growing trend for them to sneak in cars while the driver is away for a short while ,and hide in the back .


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## Bee (Jan 24, 2015)

We also have a problem in the U.K. that not _*all*_ companies pay the minimum wage and when caught out, make excuses for it....there is no excuse in my opinion.

_*Retail giant H&M and service station operator Welcome Break are among 37 firms to be "named and shamed" for failing to pay the minimum wage. *_
_*It is the single biggest list of companies exposed by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.*_
_*The 37 firms will be fined a total of £51,000 and must also pay affected staff the £177,000 they were underpaid.*_
_*Welcome Break said a new IT problem contributed to the mistake, while H&M blamed time logging errors.*_
_*The government has already named 55 firms since October 2013 for underpaying staff.*_
_*The minimum wage for adults aged 21 and over currently stands at £6.50 per hour although the three major Westminster parties have all said they want to raise it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30822565
*_


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## Bee (Jan 25, 2015)

I know my post isn't strictly to do with immigrants illegal or otherwise, just pointing out that not all legit companies play by the law.

There have been several cases where immigrants illegal or legit have been exploited where wages are concerned.

For me to condemn illegal immigrants I would have to know their circumstances first, when they risk life and limb to arrive in the U.K. there must be something seriously wrong with their countries of origin.


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## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2015)

Bee, with regard  the companies who were recently fined for failing to meet minimum wage requirements, this didn't only apply to immigrants but to everyone regardless of their race or legal status in this country, who were employed by these charlatans.


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## Bee (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes I know that Holly, I did point out that I realised it was nothing to do with immigrants illegal or otherwise.


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