# Elementary School Shooting  in Uvalde Texas



## JustBonee (May 24, 2022)

Two killed, others injured in school shooting in Uvalde, hospital officials say​A suspect in the shooting at Robb Elementary School is in custody, Uvalde police said. It was not immediately clear whether any students had been killed in the shooting, but hospital officials said about a dozen children had been injured.


https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/24/uvalde-texas-school-shooting/


The breaking news on local TV this afternoon hasn't had time to get details in order as yet. ....   There are deaths, but number is unclear at present.  

Uvalde is a small rural area of Texas near San Antonio.      ...    @PamfromTx


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## RadishRose (May 24, 2022)

NO! No, no please, no.... @PamfromTx has family there!


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## JustBonee (May 24, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> NO! No, no please, no.... @PamfromTx has family there!


Waiting to hear from her!

This all happened in the last couple hours,  so  there is little information.


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## PamfromTx (May 24, 2022)

I'm sorry, been on phone.

No, I have no relatives at the Uvalde schools.


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## RadishRose (May 24, 2022)

PamfromTx said:


> I'm sorry, been on phone.
> 
> No, we have no children at the Uvalde schools.


Thank God, @PamfromTx !


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## PamfromTx (May 24, 2022)

My babies (g-nieces) are in daycare and my g-nephew attends school in another nearby town (Sabinal).  He's to graduate Friday.  My heart is broken, dear friends and I can't stop crying.  I haven't cried like this in years.  Uvalde is suppose to be a peaceful rural town.


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## hollydolly (May 24, 2022)

_As many as 14 children have been killed at a Texas school by an 18-year-old gunman who who then shot dead by cops. 

Governor Greg Abbott confirmed 14 students and one teacher have been killed at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

Thirteen children are being treated at the Uvalde Memorial emergency room as well as a 45-year-old man who suffered a 'graze.'

University Health San Antonio confirmed they received a child whose condition is currently unknown and a 66-year-old woman who is critical condition. 

The shooter engaged in a firefight with border patrol before the shooting and then ran into the school and barricaded himself inside the school.

Police initially reported he was arrested before confirming he died.

Photos outside the scene show a pickup truck that crashed outside the school, it was unclear if the car belonged to the gunman. 

Concerned parents were captured at the scene desperately searching for their children and video from the chaotic scene showed police arriving to the school campus with their guns in hand.

One widely shared video appears to show the suspected gunman approach the school while what sounds like gunfire is going off in the background. 





_





 Click here for the video and the rest of the report

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...lementary-school-campus-plunged-lockdown.html


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## PamfromTx (May 24, 2022)

Hubby's 2 g-nephews and 1 g-niece attend another elementary school (Anthon) that is located close to this particular one.  They are home, safe and traumatized.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Shocking.  Killing children.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Suspect 18 yrs old, dead by suicide.  Damn this evil forever.
eta
Also reported killed by cops


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## JustBonee (May 24, 2022)

PamfromTx said:


> Hubby's 3 g-nephews attend another elementary school very close to this particular one.  They are home, safe and traumatized.



The school year ends for so many at the end of the week  around here  ...  and I  hate to see such  news today


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## Jackie23 (May 24, 2022)

Just now on MSNBC....14 children and 1 teacher dead.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Acquaintance said shooter hated immigrants.


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## oldman (May 24, 2022)

Did I hear that he also killed his grandparents?

I think many Americans have been waiting for something like this to happen. It probably won’t be the last one. Sure has been a big uptick in violence the last several months.


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## palides2021 (May 24, 2022)

Feeling sad right now for these innocent children, the teacher, and the parents.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Since the shooter is the age of a lot of our grandchildren, it appears to me that his parents, our children, were raised by us in some helter-skelter environment.  Our children produced these maniacs.


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## oldman (May 24, 2022)

We have got to be more careful who we sell guns to. Obviously, we have a lot of really sick people walking among us. I don’t want to sound like I’m acting with a knee jerk reaction, but we should consider longer waiting periods and more comprehensive mental testing before we hand anyone a gun. Just because someone has never undergone counseling shouldn’t mean that he’s an OK guy.

Problem is too many people know how to trick or deceive when taking a psychologist test.


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## JustBonee (May 24, 2022)

oldman said:


> Did I hear that he also killed his grandparents?
> 
> I think many Americans have been waiting for something like this to happen. It probably won’t be the last one. Sure has been a big uptick in violence the last several months.



They did verify that he did kill his grandmother before he shot those little kids.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 24, 2022)

Unfortunately, this happens everyday. I think most people are almost numbed by the pervasive gun violence in our society. Certainly doesn't surprise me it happened in Texas.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Unfortunately, this happens everyday. I think most people are almost numbed by the pervasive gun violence in our society. Certainly doesn't surprise me it happened in Texas.


Did it surprise you when it happened in NYState?  In Connecticut?  No state is immune.


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## hollydolly (May 24, 2022)

A board with the list of classes and teachers is displayed outside the Ssgt Willie de Leon Civic Center where students were transported to


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## RadishRose (May 24, 2022)

Salvador Ramos was named as the 18-year-old suspect in the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, that left 15 people dead – including 14 students and a teacher,  according to the governor.


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## JustBonee (May 24, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> Salvador Ramos was named as the 18-year-old suspect in the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, that left 15 people dead – including 14 students and a teacher,  according to the governor.



To me,  this 18 yr old looks a lot like the 18 yr old shooter in Buffalo!


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> To me,  this 18 yr old looks a lot like the 18 yr old shooter in Buffalo!


I forgot what the Buffalo shooter looks like, or even his name.  The only one I remember is Adam whats-his-name because his mother wanted him to have a gun & he was so obviously out of it.


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## Packerjohn (May 24, 2022)

Oh Gee!  Seems just like another day in the land of violence!  This does not surprise me at all.  Just look at the "garbage" that comes out of Hollywood these days disguised as "entertainment."  If you ask me, "what goes around, comes around."  Changes are needed but no one does anything except complain and keep putting those flowers where the situation happened.   There will be more and more of this.  It is a reflection of the times.   A materlistic culture is not necessarily a happy culture.   Sad!


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## Packerjohn (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


Our politicians are totally useless.  Gun lovers think that they live in the days of Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett.  The times have changed and they don't want to know about it.  Every man thinks he is John Wayne or Clint Eastwood.  The crazies are neither; they are just crazy and we have more and more crazies all the time.  Don't believe me?  Watch cable TV!


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## RadishRose (May 24, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> To me,  this 18 yr old looks a lot like the 18 yr old shooter in Buffalo!


This was posted on the website https://heavy.com/news/salvador-ramos/


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Nauseating.


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## RadishRose (May 24, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> To me,  this 18 yr old looks a lot like the 18 yr old shooter in Buffalo!


@Bonnie ..

The Buffalo Shooter: Peyton Gendron





I see what you mean.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Angry punk faces.  Yes, definitely see similarity, thanks @Bonnie & @RadishRose


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## Lewkat (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I forgot what the Buffalo shooter looks like, or even his name.  The only one I remember is Adam whats-his-name because his mother wanted him to have a gun & he was so obviously out of it.


That was the Sandy Hook shootings, Pepper.  These are absolutely unconscionable.  There are no words.


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## Tish (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Acquaintance said shooter hated immigrants.


A hate crime on innocent children, I am totally heartbroken for the parents and families of those young ones and the trauma that will affect so many of the students.


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## ohioboy (May 24, 2022)

The govt. has hundreds of billions to trash in foreign aid but none for school security. P's me off beyond anger mode.


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## Jackie23 (May 24, 2022)

This is heartbreaking...the innocent children, there are no words......Texas is open carry probably one of the easiest states in the country to get a gun!  I despise the politicians that make no effort to lessen the probability of this happening.


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## Remy (May 24, 2022)

First I've heard. Didn't have the news on. This is terrible. I don't think it will ever end.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 24, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> This is heartbreaking...the innocent children, there are no words......Texas is open carry probably one of the easiest states in the country to get a gun!  *I despise the politicians that make no effort to lessen the probability of this happening.*


The politicians in Texas have been doing what Texans want. That is why the same party has been in power since 1994. Making guns easier to obtain and carry in public (no license needed) is supposed to make Texans safer.


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## win231 (May 24, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> Oh Gee!  Seems just like another day in the land of violence!  This does not surprise me at all.  Just look at the "garbage" that comes out of Hollywood these days disguised as "entertainment."  If you ask me, "what goes around, comes around."  Changes are needed but no one does anything except complain and keep putting those flowers where the situation happened.   There will be more and more of this.  It is a reflection of the times.   A materlistic culture is not necessarily a happy culture.   Sad!


YYYup, it's those damn movies & video games!


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## Jackie23 (May 24, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> The politicians in Texas have been doing what Texans want. That is why the same party has been in power since 1994. Making guns easier to obtain and carry in public (no license needed) is supposed to make Texans safer.


Not this Texan!
You are exactly right and this is what I hate!  Texas is right at the top of the list, but there are others.


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## Blessed (May 24, 2022)

We are all shocked, horrified and confused when this happens. There are many mentally ill people out there that ask for help and never get taken seriously.  They are ignored or neglected by their families, teachers, doctors and society in general.  Then they do the something that makes someone, anyone listen.  Why are we not paying attention to those that are suffering. Most people have no desire to hurt anyone.  They just want someone to listen, help them, get them the care they need to function in society. I am horrified by this young mans actions but he had been struggling for a long time to do something so horrific. 

We need to stop looking the other way, we need to make authorities/doctors, teachers at school to step up to identify children that are the victims of bullies. Those that also suffer at home from hunger, abuse and neglect.   We need to be aware of the things in society that makes daily normal life impossible. It comes down to if you see something, say something.  Be advocate to all.


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## GoneFishin (May 24, 2022)

Is the horror ever going to end?!


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## SeniorBen (May 24, 2022)

For the gunman to kill that many people in that short of time, he must have used an AR-15 style rifle. Nothing else is that deadly and allows someone to kill with such ease.

The Buffalo shooter was influenced by White Replacement Theory. He went to a city where he knew there would be a high concentration of Black people. He chose that neighborhood because he knew it would be mostly Blacks shopping there and he'd have a good chance of killing mostly Black people.

In today's shooting in Texas, reports claim there is a 90% percentage of Hispanics in the school, but the gunman appears to be Hispanic. It could still be the influence of White Replacement Theory, though. There were Jewish Nazis in 1930s Germany. Sometimes people act in ways that aren't in their best interests.


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## win231 (May 24, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> For the gunman to kill that many people in that short of time, he must have used an AR-15 style rifle. Nothing else is that deadly and allows someone to kill with such ease.
> 
> The Buffalo shooter was influenced by White Replacement Theory. He went to a city where he knew there would be a high concentration of Black people. He chose that neighborhood because he knew it would be mostly Blacks shopping there and he'd have a good chance of killing mostly Black people.
> 
> In today's shooting in Texas, reports claim there is a 90% percentage of Hispanics in the school, but the gunman appears to be Hispanic. It could still be the influence of White Replacement Theory, though. There were Jewish Nazis in 1930s Germany. Sometimes people act in ways that aren't in their best interests.


Uh.......no.  One of the worst mass shootings with 32 dead & 17 wounded was carried out with 2 pistols.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting


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## Della (May 24, 2022)

I just heard on the news that there have been 212 mass shootings so far this year.  We're the only country with guns every where and the only country where this happens all the time.  Why can't we stop this?


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## oldman (May 24, 2022)

Heard the president ordered flags to be lowered, so I went outside and lowered ours.


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## Blessed (May 24, 2022)

Come on people, stop looking at the state, the color of their skin.  This is about the mentally ill.  This happens when mentally ill people get to the breaking point.  They just want us to see and know the pain they were in and we did nothing to help them.  Would anybody in their right mind do this, I don't think so.


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## mrstime (May 24, 2022)

All I can say is that when Americans get tired of the killings they will put a stop to it!


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## fuzzybuddy (May 24, 2022)

15 massacred,  Yeah, we're shocked, and horrified, blah, blah, blah. We'll be shocked and horrified for about a week or so. Then  another responsible  gun owner will mow down a dozen  or so more.  How many school shootings ago did we say "this time", it will be the last.  Apparently we love our guns more than our kids.


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## Jackie23 (May 24, 2022)

Senator Chris Murphy on the floor of the Senate today.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 24, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> 15 massacred,  Yeah, we're shocked, and horrified, blah, blah, blah. We'll be shocked and horrified for about a week or so. Then  another responsible  gun owner will mow down a dozen  or so more.  *Apparently we love our guns more than our kids.*


On the bolded. That RINGS loud and clear. Very Sad !!!!!!!


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## GoneFishin (May 24, 2022)

Until the massacre at Colorado’s Columbine High School in 1999, the number of dead tended to be in the single digits. Since then, the number of shootings that included schools and killed 10 or more people has mounted. The most recent two were both in Texas.

ROBB ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, May 2022

An 18-year-old gunman opened fire Tuesday at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, killing 14 children, one teacher and injuring others, Gov. Greg Abbott said. The shooter died.

SANTA FE HIGH SCHOOL, May 2018

A 17-year-old opened fire at a Houston-area high school, killing 10 people, most of them students, authorities said. The suspect has been charged with murder.

MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL, February 2018

An attack left 14 students and three staff members dead at the school in Parkland, Florida, and injured many others. The 20-year-old suspect was charged with murder.

UMPQUA COMMUNITY COLLEGE, October 2015

A man killed nine people at the school in Roseburg, Oregon, and wounded nine others, then killed himself.

SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, December 2012

A 19-year-old man killed his mother at their home in Newtown, Connecticut, then went to the nearby Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 20 first graders and six educators. He took his own life.

VIRGINIA TECH, April 2007

A 23-year-old student killed 32 people on the campus in Blacksburg, Virginia, in April 2007; more than two dozen others were wounded. The gunman then killed himself.

RED LAKE HIGH SCHOOL, March 2005

A 16-year-old student killed his grandfather and the man’s companion at their Minnesota home, then went to nearby Red Lake High School, where he killed five students, a teacher and a security guard before shooting himself.

COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL, April 1999

Two students killed 12 of their peers and one teacher at the school in Littleton, Colorado, and injured many others before killing themselves.


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## Pink Biz (May 24, 2022)

18 kids, 3 adults...new death toll


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## PamfromTx (May 24, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Two killed, others injured in school shooting in Uvalde, hospital officials say​A suspect in the shooting at Robb Elementary School is in custody, Uvalde police said. It was not immediately clear whether any students had been killed in the shooting, but hospital officials said about a dozen children had been injured.
> 
> 
> https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/24/uvalde-texas-school-shooting/
> ...


_Thank you for thinking of my hometown @Bonnie.    Still in shock; still crying and still mourning for the families.  My husband just told me that the death count has gone up.   _


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## senior chef (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Since the shooter is the age of a lot of our grandchildren, it appears to me that his parents, our children, were raised by us in some helter-skelter environment.  Our children produced these maniacs.


Yes, indeed !  
It seems to me that there is something seriously wrong with our entire culture. These school killings did not happen 40-50 60 years ago.  
Where were the parents who raised the killer ?  What kind of upbringing did he have ? 
It is a popular belief that if BOTH parents are full-time workers they can successfully raise mentally healthy children. True enough I suppose, At least for most parents. However, I believe that a certain % of 2 working parents will fail in their obligations and that will result in a mentally diseased child. Especially if the child spends way, way too much time playing violent electronic games where killing imaginary opponents is the object.  

Think about an analogy.  Many drunk drivers may very well get away with drunk driving for years and  years. BUT, eventually a few of them will end up killing others on the highway. Likewise for two working parents. Most may escape producing a mentally diseased child, but a few will fail horribly.


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## hollydolly (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I forgot what the Buffalo shooter looks like, or even his name.  The only one I remember is Adam whats-his-name because his mother wanted him to have a gun & he was so obviously out of it.


the buffalo shooter was an oversized , dopey looking nut...


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## hawkdon (May 24, 2022)

And still we consider our country to be the best on earth???


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## morgan (May 24, 2022)

The 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, identified by law enforcement sources as the Robb Elementary School shooting suspect shot his grandmother before opening fire on the elementary school. Society is breaking down and seems to me it is more apparent in the US these days.


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


QFT


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2022)

Della said:


> I just heard on the news that there have been 212 mass shootings so far this year.  We're the only country with guns every where and the only country where this happens all the time.  Why can't we stop this?


I hesitate to say this but freedom is very highly valued in US and the gun has been elevated to the symbol of freedom. It is heresy to say that it is actually a just a tool for killing people you don't like, especially for racists and fanatics.


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## palides2021 (May 24, 2022)

Somewhere I had read to look at the ears - if they are lower than the eyes, that's a sign of violence issues (you see this in a lot of the terrorist photos). Also, heavy eyebrows have been linked to psychopathy. If one eye shows the white of the eye than the other eye, that's also a sign. So if you see anyone with that description walking toward you - run the other way.


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2022)

These events make the news all around the world. This is the coverage in Australia, on the national broadcaster, the ABC. Since this was posted the death toll may have risen.

Gunman kills 18 children in Texas school shooting, several victims in hospital - ABC News


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## mrstime (May 24, 2022)

"The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "_A well regulated Militia_,"
It says nothing about every Tom,Dick and Harry owning hundreds of guns!


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## Murrmurr (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


I'm glad you used the word "extreme". 

Most of my family, from my grandparents to my grandkids, are gun-owners, but when guns make news like this, we all wish that far more thorough background checks and longer wait periods were mandatory nationwide.

There's an astounding number of Americans with mental illness. I honestly believe it's environmental; food, air, and soil pollution, and a maximum overload of all types of media. I have a 9yr-old neighbor kid who saw the torture-slaughter movie _Dard Divorce_ 11 times, and _Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ "at least half-a-dozen times."

Kid scares the crap outta me.


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## Remy (May 24, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> the buffalo shooter was an oversized , dopey looking nut...


I wonder what he's said since the shooting. I also wonder what the conversation in that house he was from was. I doubt it wasn't to respect people. 

I remember watching a couple of videos on YouTube after the Camp Fire. Until I had to stop. Comments like "ha ha libtards" "got what they deserved" These were not rare. I don't know what goes on in the minds of some.


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## win231 (May 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


How would a waiting period have prevented this?


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2022)

win231 said:


> How would a waiting period have prevented this?


You make a good point. This problem requires more than token changes. Much more.


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## Pepper (May 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Come on people, stop looking at the state, the color of their skin.  This is about the mentally ill.  This happens when mentally ill people get to the breaking point.  *They just want us to see and know the pain they were in and we did nothing to help them.*  Would anybody in their right mind do this, I don't think so.


Then they should kill themselves and not take other people, especially young kids, along for the ride.


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## Blessed (May 24, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> On the bolded. That RINGS loud and clear. Very Sad





Pepper said:


> Then they should kill themselves and not take other people, especially young kids, along for the ride.


Again, I will say these people are ill. If you are diagnosed with a disease you should be given treatment not left alone.  I hate that these things keep happening, it is a horrible thing. Yes it would be better if they took their own lives and no else.  Yet this still happens because society if not paying attention and getting them treatment.


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## dseag2 (May 24, 2022)

It is just unconscionable that elementary school kids should have to worry about their lives.  I was just thinking after I heard this story about how the parents of the murdered kids must be feeling right now.  Their lives will never be the same.

Remember when we were in elementary school?  The worst we had to worry about was homework.  What has happened to our country?


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## ohioboy (May 24, 2022)

mrstime said:


> "The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "_A well regulated Militia_,"
> It says nothing about every Tom,Dick and Harry owning hundreds of guns!


Case law does, of course that means legally.


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## Warrigal (May 24, 2022)

DonnyO said:


> Right on the money. No pun intended.
> 
> Senator Hot Air.  How many pleas for the mentally Ill that fill the streets and Hospitals.  Why are young people doing this?


To which I reply with this question - How are they able to do this?


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## WhatInThe (May 24, 2022)

I saw reports where the police were on to him and he crashed a pick up truck near the school at which time the killer decided to enter and shoot up the elementary school.

At the sametime there are reports he wanted to shoot up his graduation but that wasn't until Friday? So was the school improvised or he was going to hit that school and his high school? If it's the same district and town maybe he held a grude against a teacher or staff there as well.

This is also erie because the Buffalo killer also wanted to shoot up his graduation. 2 mass pos killers. wanted to shoot up their high schools/graduations but wound up  settling for a different target. So that tells me is wasn't personal they just wanted to kill and/or sought attention.

RIP victims

Peace


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## mrstime (May 24, 2022)

ohioboy said:


> Case law does, of course that means legally.


How about they just go back to a well regulated militia?


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## win231 (May 24, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Again, I will say these people are ill. If you are diagnosed with a disease you should be given treatment not left alone.  I hate that these things keep happening, it is a horrible thing. Yes it would be better if they took their own lives and no else.  Yet this still happens because society if not paying attention and getting them treatment.


Actually, they *are *getting treatment.  Almost all mass shooters are getting lots of antidepressant drugs - that come with warnings about suicidal & homicidal tendencies while taking them.


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

I first heard this report 10 hours ago and my eyes teared up thinking of those young children who will not have the chance to live life.
Very very sad.


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

Blessed said:


> We are all shocked, horrified and confused when this happens. There are many mentally ill people out there that ask for help and never get taken seriously.  They are ignored or neglected by their families, teachers, doctors and society in general.  Then they do the something that makes someone, anyone listen.  Why are we not paying attention to those that are suffering. Most people have no desire to hurt anyone.  They just want someone to listen, help them, get them the care they need to function in society. I am horrified by this young mans actions but he had been struggling for a long time to do something so horrific.
> 
> We need to stop looking the other way, we need to make authorities/doctors, teachers at school to step up to identify children that are the victims of bullies. Those that also suffer at home from hunger, abuse and neglect.   We need to be aware of the things in society that makes daily normal life impossible. It comes down to if you see something, say something.  Be advocate to all.


Very well said. I have been espousing this line for decades. We ignore/shun those weird/quite types. We do nothing about the incredible amount of bullying that goes on in schools.
Then we wonder why events like this happen.
It is put in the too hard basket and will continue to remain there.
What is wrong with society if we keep electing Politicians who do nothing at all to stop this despicable situation.
Why can they not be removed from office? Surely someone has to stand up and tell these despicable politicians that what they are doing/not doing goes against the values of a democratic society.


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Come on people, stop looking at the state, the color of their skin.  This is about the mentally ill.  This happens when mentally ill people get to the breaking point.  They just want us to see and know the pain they were in and we did nothing to help them.  Would anybody in their right mind do this, I don't think so.


In 1996 Australia there was a mass murderer who shot and killed 35 people at Port Arthur in Tasmania. He also shot and injured another 23 people.
This is what was known about Martin Bryant
Born in Tasmania, Australia, as the firstborn to Maurice and Carleen Bryant, Bryant was known to be a strange person even at an early age, with his temper being unmanageable and his focus always distant. 

A violent and disruptive child, he was frequently bullied at school and he was known for causing trouble himself. 

Bryant was suspended from elementary school in 1977 and came to attend a special-education unit at high school, where he continued to deteriorate academically and behaviourally. During elementary school, Bryant was found to possess a low IQ of 66 and was possibly autistic. 
At the age of 14, he was given an air rifle by Maurice, which he enjoyed using, frequently using it to shoot at traffic from a distance and allegedly to brutally kill parrots. 

More attention needs to be shown towards those who "don't fit in"


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

It looks like all schools need to be fortified. Starting at the gate, which needs to be some distance from the school building.
Have every parent use an entrance card to activate the gate.
Each child to be admitted individually.
Armed guards at every school.
This sounds really scary but extreme measures need to be taken.


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## Mike (May 25, 2022)

What next?

Babies dead because of guns in the wrong hands, but I think
that nothing will change, just like the other times.

Our news reports 19 Children and 2 adults dead, R.I.P.

My condolences to all involved.

America is a strange place in many ways, you cannot drink any
alcohol, until you are 21 years old, yet you can buy guns when
you are 18 years old and ammunition, then go and kill unarmed
 children, the rules need swapping over, I believe.

Stop all gun sales to civilians, until they are 30 years old, or for
ever, I realise it is not a solution, there are too many guns out
there.

I am so sad about this and thinking how it can be stopped, I
am no saint, but I never owned a gun, or killed anybody.

Mike.


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> It looks like all schools need to be fortified. Starting at the gate, which needs to be some distance from the school building.
> Have every parent use an entrance card to activate the gate.
> Each child to be admitted individually.
> Armed guards at every school.
> This sounds really scary but extreme measures need to be taken.


sounds like _something _extreme has to happen.., however the Buffalo killer chose a supermarket not a school.. so you can't build a wall around every public area unfortunately... might be just a better idea to Ban guns... ...but I'm not going there because it's a contentious subject


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

mrstime said:


> How about they just go back to a well regulated militia?


How about all the well regulated militias provide security for schools as volunteers?
Let them justify their existence with public service.
Just don't let them inside the schools - perimeter security only.


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

R.I.P The  young teachers robbed of their lives.. Irma Garcia Left... and Eva Mireless










Tragically... and Ironically Eva's  husband Ruben Ruiz, a veteran detective and SWAT team member currently serving as a police officer with the school district, held regular active shooter drills for the schools.

Irma had been a teacher for 24 years, a mother of 4 ..She was nominated as teacher of the year for the 2018-19 awards, organized by Trinity University.


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## Della (May 25, 2022)

I agree that we desperately need care for people with mental illness and that violent movies and games are harmful to children, but not all killers have classifiable mental illnesses, and some serious mental illnesses don't strike until the late teens or early twenties, so parents may just be beginning to notice that something is wrong. 

 Lot's of odd, eccentric people are perfectly harmless and some murderers are described as nice regular guys by friends and neighbors. Lots of people with mental illness are harmless. There are mentally ill people in other countries where shootings are rare.

We will never be able to tell in advance which people will do something like this.

  We could assign individual armed guards to each child and someone could shoot both the guard and the child.  In recent mass shootings the security guard was just the first person shot.

 Police and active duty military, maybe some ranchers, need guns.  No one else does.  "To protect my family," doesn't hold water when that gun is more likely to harm a family member than protect them.  I'll bet many of those children had fathers with guns. 

We have to quit letting the NRA run our country and buy back the guns.


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

..further to @Della 's post, not everyone who is diagnosed with a mental illness, comes from sane parents either... so lots of mental health issues will go undetected.. because the parents or grandparents have their own issues..

Whether this boy was mentally ill is open to conjecture.


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## Lewkat (May 25, 2022)

If we can surround our White House and Supreme Court building with razor wire and have a guard at the gate, then, by all means, get going on our schools.  No one gets in without proper ID.  Sad to have come to this, but I'd pay and extra tax for it to keep my child safe.  Until we begin sending our mentally ill back to the institutions closed back in the 80s, we have to seek the alternative.


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## GoneFishin (May 25, 2022)

News channels in Canada this morning are pleading with the US authorities and the American people to do something. To put a stop to the horror and the madness. Some newscasters were on the verge of tears.


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## morgan (May 25, 2022)

Many countries have looked up to the US in the past. America you have let us down with your refusal to amend your gun laws. These school shootings don't happen anywhere else in the world, to my knowledge.


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## Alice November (May 25, 2022)

Next the blame will be placed on the grandmother!


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## rgp (May 25, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> If we can surround our White House and Supreme Court building with razor wire and have a guard at the gate, then, by all means, get going on our schools.  No one gets in without proper ID.  Sad to have come to this, but I'd pay and extra tax for it to keep my child safe.  Until we begin sending our mentally ill back to the institutions closed back in the 80s, we have to seek the alternative.



 Agree here.


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## rgp (May 25, 2022)

Della said:


> I agree that we desperately need care for people with mental illness and that violent movies and games are harmful to children, but not all killers have classifiable mental illnesses, and some serious mental illnesses don't strike until the late teens or early twenties, so parents may just be beginning to notice that something is wrong.
> 
> Lot's of odd, eccentric people are perfectly harmless and some murderers are described as nice regular guys by friends and neighbors. Lots of people with mental illness are harmless. There are mentally ill people in other countries where shootings are rare.
> 
> ...



 What makes you think the gun oqners will sell back?


----------



## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

morgan said:


> Many countries have looked up to the US in the past. America you have let us down with your refusal to amend your gun laws. These school shootings don't happen anywhere else in the world, to my knowledge.


Unfortunately we had one here in the UK in Scotland  my home country, in fact in the village next to where I was born .. The Dunblane massacre  26 years ago ..in a tiny Scottish primary school in the village of Dunblane... where the killer shot 16  tiny infant kids and their teacher and then shot himself... horribly tragic, and totally unexpected here.. but it's only happened once thank  God , and I hope it never happens again


here's the full story....
_The gunman, Thomas Hamilton, lived in the town. On the day of the massacre, he drove into the school parking lot at about 9:30 in the morning. He cut the cables on a telephone pole and then entered the school, carrying four handguns and 743 rounds of ammunition and wearing shooting earmuffs. He fired a couple of shots as he made his way to the school gym, where teacher Gwen Mayor had just taken her 29 Primary 1 (equivalent to American kindergarten) students for their physical education class. Hamilton entered the gym and immediately opened fire, wounding physical education teacher Eileen Harrild and teaching assistant Mary Blake and injuring and killing several children. Harrild and Blake took shelter inside a cupboard in the gym, bringing as many children with them as they could, as Hamilton continued his fusillade. When an adult and an older student tried to look inside the gym to find out what was going on, Hamilton fired toward them and then left the gym, firing toward the library cloakroom and into a mobile classroom, where the students lay on the floor at their teachers’ instruction. Hamilton then returned to the gym, dropped the gun he had been using and chose another one, which he used to kill himself. The entire attack took place over a period of less than five minutes.  Mayor and 15 children were killed outright, and another child died in the hospital. A further 15 people, the vast majority of them children, were wounded.


A motive for the massacre was never established. Hamilton had become an assistant Boy Scout leader at the age of 20 but soon came under suspicion because of his behaviour toward boys. After further complaints, he was required to leave the Boy Scouts, which angered him. He repeatedly asked to be allowed to return, to no avail, and he wrote letters of protest to various government authorities, claiming persecution. In the meantime, he became a gun collector, and he organized several boys’ clubs, in which he taught shooting, gymnastics, and sports. Though his clubs were initially popular and well-attended, his reportedly strange behaviour as well as his apparently pedophilic activities eventually alienated club members and their parents, and the clubs shut down. Some reports also indicate that he had been turned down as a volunteer at Dunblane Primary School. Tennis star Andy Murray was a student at Dunblane when the slaughter took place, and he later said that he had attended Hamilton’s boys’ clubs as a child.


In the aftermath of the massacre, residents of Dunblane initiated the Snowdrop Campaign (named for the spring flower that was in bloom at the time of the mass shooting) to seek changes in British gun laws. The campaign’s petition gathered some 750,000 signatures, and a letter written by the mother of one of the slain children was printed in two national newspapers. In February 1997 Parliament responded by passing a law banning private ownership of handguns above .22 calibre, and in November 1997 the ban was extended to all handguns. In addition, security requirements for gun clubs were expanded. Following the passage of those laws, the incidence of gun killings in the U.K. dropped significantly.
_


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> ..further to @Della 's post, not everyone who is diagnosed with a mental illness, comes from sane parents either... so lots of mental health issues will go undetected.. because the parents or grandparents have their own issues..
> 
> Whether this boy was mentally ill is open to conjecture.


It appears he had been radicalised by the White Replacement movement. He may have been a misfit but that does not automatically lead to a diagnosis of mental illness. This seems to have been a classic race hate crime, for which he will never stand trial.


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## terry123 (May 25, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> Not this Texan!
> You are exactly right and this is what I hate!  Texas is right at the top of the list, but there are others.


This Texan agrees with you!


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## Liberty (May 25, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> I agree, I also read the NRA has a convention in Houston soon and Abbott and Cruz will be two of the speakers.


The NRA tried to declare bankruptcy, but judge blocked it last year. What a crooked organization it devolved into:

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/9959...ase-heightening-risk-for-dissolution-of-group


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## moviequeen1 (May 25, 2022)

Just as we all are trying to recover from our tragic situation here, to learn this has happened again is heart breaking
My thoughts&prayers are with the parents,friends who lost their children/loved ones
When will this ever stop? Sue


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> To me,  this 18 yr old looks a lot like the 18 yr old shooter in Buffalo!


I was thinking how much he looked liked the serial killer Richard Ramirez ...he could be the grandspawn


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## OneEyedDiva (May 25, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> It appears he had been radicalised by the White Replacement movement. He may have been a misfit but that does not automatically lead to a diagnosis of mental illness. This seems to have been a classic race hate crime, for which he will never stand trial.


I'm going to piggy back off your reply Warrigal. I am so sick and tired of the response to shootings when the shooters are White they are "mentally ill". When it's persons of color...they are "thugs".  I'm not saying you are guilty of those descriptions at all, but I noticed that some here on SF were. I think maybe those individuals no longer participate here but they are not the only ones who have made those kinds of distinctions.

I agree with you that the racist shooter wasn't necessarily mentally ill. He was filled with hatred and that prompted him to commit a heinous, evil act. A friend of mine is also tired of what she calls the "Twinkie Defense" being enacted for these murderers.


----------



## morgan (May 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> Unfortunately we had one here in the UK in Scotland  my home country, in fact in the village next to where I was born .. The Dunblane massacre  26 years ago ..in a tiny Scottish primary school in the village of Dunblane... where the killer shot 16  tiny infant kids and their teacher and then shot himself... horribly tragic, and totally unexpected here.. but it's only happened once thank  God , and I hope it never happens again
> 
> 
> here's the full story....
> ...


Thank you for this information, so many sad events in the world.


----------



## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

_It is the second deadliest shooting in US history after the infamous Sandy Hook massacre in 2012 - which saw 26 people killed - and has once again left people asking how someone could commit such a heinous crime. 

As the country tries to make sense of the tragedy, stories about Ramos are beginning to emerge from those who knew him best, painting the picture of loner with a propensity for self-harm and violence, who was from an unstable home, including an alleged drug-using mother.

Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez said in a local television interview that the school shooter was born in North Dakota, but attended high school in Uvalde.

Neighbors and classmates say his behavior spiraled into the bizarre and macabre as he entered his later teenage years, with one friend telling Good Morning America: 'He had scars on his face and someone asked him, 'Are you ok?' and he just said with a smile 'I did it myself, I liked how it looked.' 

He began dressing in dark clothes and military boots and used his BB gun to target random people, one local claimed. 

There are around 15,000 residents in Uvalde which sits roughly 80 miles west of San Antonio, around an hour's drive from the US-Mexico border. 

The would-be mass murderer lived on Hood Street, less than three miles from the Robb Elementary school.

More than one-third of residents in the city live at or barely above the federal poverty line._

According to Ramos' neighbor Ruben Flores, 41, the shooter and his mother would often have screaming matches, with police being called to the home on multiple occasions. 
In since deleted Instagram videos, Ramos had allegedly filmed his mother interacting with police. 

Classmate Nadia Reyes claimed: 'He'd call his mom a b***h and say she wanted to kick him out... He'd be screaming and talking to his mom really aggressively.'

Flores, meanwhile, told the Washington Post how he had tried to be a father figure to Ramos but that the situation at home only worsened as he got older. 

Ramos' grandmother, who owned the house on Hood Street, was reportedly in the process of evicting the mother over her drug use in the days before Tuesday's killing spree. Flores said Ramos had moved into his grandmother's home across town some months earlier.

She would be Ramos' first victim on Tuesday, but the 66-year-old is reported to have survived after being 'critically shot'.  

By all accounts, Ramos had been a relatively normal child until the eighth grade, with his 'best friend' from that period, Stephen Garcia, branding him the 'nicest' and 'shyest kid' who 'just needed to break out of his shell.' 

Reportedly Ramos was bullied for a stutter and lisp. Classmates also allegedly called him with gay slurs.  At one point, he uploaded a picture of himself wearing eyeliner.

'He would get bullied hard, like bullied by a lot of people,' Garcia told the Post, 'Over social media, over gaming, over everything.'

When Garcia had to move away, Ramos began to change, dressing in all black and donning large military boots.


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## oldman (May 25, 2022)

I don’t think anyone would disagree that we need stronger gun control laws. Anyone that is taking opioids or opiates is on their state’s database. What would be wrong with having a database for anyone receiving psychological care for depression or any other psychotic disorder. The Psychiatrist, psychologist or family doctor who treats his/her patients with antidepressants should also be on a database.

We could also put doors comparable to the impenetrable doors on airplanes into the cockpits on the entrance doors to schools. Before getting into a school, the person would have to show ID and the child would have to agree to go with that person. If they are not a parent, they will need a note from the parent and the school officer in charge would have to verify the parent’s note with a phone call. If they cannot verify the note with the parent’s number on file, the door stays locked.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

If people are punished for seeking help; fear they will end up on databases, they will not seek help and that would make these matters worse.

This shooter was not under psychiatric care.


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## Sunny (May 25, 2022)

This has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, which the gun lovers are so fond of invoking. An obviously disturbed teenager was able to walk into a gun store a few days after his 18th birthday, and buy an assault weapon. Apparently no questions asked.

What in heaven's name does that have to do with a well-regulated militia, which may have been a good idea in the 18th century?

How many more innocent lives must be taken before the NRA is finally reined in? As the President said yesterday, what is wrong with this country?  When are we finally going to get some backbone?


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## oldman (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If people are punished for seeking help; fear they will end up on databases, they will not seek help and that would make these matters worse.
> 
> This shooter was not under psychiatric care.


I don’t agree. People who use opiates still buy them. Many cancer patients need this medicine to ease their pain. The databases are not open to the public and anyone wishing to view the database as a whole needs a special clearance. If a pharmacist needs to know if John Smith of 123 Main St.  Anywhere, U.S. is on a database, as soon as the pharmacist puts in his name and address to fill the Rx, the name would be rejected, if they have exceeded their allotment for the month.

BTW, there is already a database of people receiving psychiatric care, but it’s not complete because not every state complies as stated. When I buy a gun, the person I am buying from will run my personal information through the national database. If it comes back as being questionable or shows a hit, I will be denied the purchase.


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## spectratg (May 25, 2022)

In grade school in the 1950's we had drills to hide under our desks to somehow protect us from fallout after a nuclear bomb explosion, which of course never happened.  Now my grandchildren have drills to hide under their desks in the event of a school shooter, which is so common.  They live in a much scarier world than the naive times that we did.


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## JustBonee (May 25, 2022)

Does this following website turn your stomach?   .... it's this weekend here,  in Houston

NRA ANNUAL MEETINGS & EXHIBITS​IN HOUSTON, TX OVER​MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND!​
https://www.nraam.org


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## spectratg (May 25, 2022)

My daughters on our family text thread told me how difficult it was to let the kids go to school this morning.  One said that her imagination took her to a dark what-if place.  And then she thought about all the parents that did the same yesterday that will never see their babies again.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Then they should kill themselves and not take other people, especially young kids, along for the ride.


As harsh as this sounds, this has been my thought with other shootings also. Why kill anyone else.


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## JustBonee (May 25, 2022)

spectratg said:


> My daughters on our family text thread told me how difficult it was to let the kids go to school this morning.  One said that her imagination took her to a dark what-if place.  And then she thought about all the parents that did the same yesterday that will never see their babies again.



Yesterday the local school district sent out a message to parents and  students about dealing with the current  situation.   
They only have today and tomorrow to get thru for this school year.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> ..further to @Della 's post, not everyone who is diagnosed with a mental illness, comes from sane parents either... so lots of mental health issues will go undetected.. because the parents or grandparents have their own issues..
> 
> Whether this boy was mentally ill is open to conjecture.


Absolutely hollydolly, I can say from experience, things go on behind closed doors and often we never know of the experiences of people walking the streets. You have to be really, really far gone to perpetrate this.


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## Jules (May 25, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Does this following website turn your stomach?   .... it's this weekend here,  in Houston
> 
> NRA ANNUAL MEETINGS & EXHIBITS​IN HOUSTON, TX OVER​MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND!​
> https://www.nraam.org


You wonder what kind of spin they’ll be using to discuss this latest massacre of little children.  

Out of curiosity, what does it cost to belong to the NRA.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

Jules said:


> You wonder what kind of spin they’ll be using to discuss this latest massacre of little children.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what does it cost to belong to the NRA.


I already saw a video come up on my YouTube feed about the president's "divisive" speech last evening. Using this tragedy to divide the nation or something like that. I didn't click on it.


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## Jules (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Then they should kill themselves and not take other people, especially young kids, along for the ride.



Considering the number of suicides, maybe there are some who do this.  Understandably, the family would never discuss this.

Adding: maybe if it were discussed, those who are marginal would consider it too.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

oldman said:


> When I buy a gun, the person I am buying from will run my personal information through the national database. If it comes back as being questionable or shows a hit, I will be denied the purchase.


Is this the case in every state?


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

Blessed said:


> We are all shocked, horrified and confused when this happens. There are many mentally ill people out there that ask for help and never get taken seriously.  They are ignored or neglected by their families, teachers, doctors and society in general.  Then they do the something that makes someone, anyone listen.  Why are we not paying attention to those that are suffering. Most people have no desire to hurt anyone.  They just want someone to listen, help them, get them the care they need to function in society. I am horrified by this young mans actions but he had been struggling for a long time to do something so horrific.
> 
> We need to stop looking the other way, we need to make authorities/doctors, teachers at school to step up to identify children that are the victims of bullies. Those that also suffer at home from hunger, abuse and neglect.   We need to be aware of the things in society that makes daily normal life impossible. It comes down to if you see something, say something.  Be advocate to all.


Not trying to make this about me but I have some experiences though things are much different today than when I graduated high school in the 70's. I was actually bullied, more than once, by a gym teacher about my weight. In front of other students. I couple of years out of high school I actually saw this beast at a fruit stand and almost lost my mind. Though I was yet to process things for years.

I was being bullied in a class in highschool and the teacher noted this and wanted to take me to the front office to state what was going on. I flat refused. When I was in 3rd grade and was being teased because I had a face injury (including total red eye) from eating the pavement on my bike, I told my mother. She came to the school and made such a scene, including grabbing a kid, the regular teasing turned to full on bullying. I started to internalize everything. I knew better than to tell that woman anything. I wasn't going to make that mistake again.

Kids suffering in the household often don't know what to do or say. They don't even know how to process it. It's all they know. Here is a link to a reilience test. There are others out there. I've read this over and over. I can claim  #10 and that's it.
RESILIENCE-Questionnaire.pdf (ashtabulamhrs.org)

There are people who have had it much, much worse than me.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

Remy said:


> As harsh as this sounds, this has been my thought with other shootings also. Why kill anyone else.


Vengeance.  This dumb POS was bullied for stuttering.  Final revenge, even if those he killed never made fun of him.


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## Don M. (May 25, 2022)

I think the legal age for purchasing a firearm should be raised to 21....much like the age for legally purchasing alcohol.  Kids 18 years old are still "transitioning" into adulthood, and their minds are still a bit "iffy".  In addition, any parent who owns firearms, with children in the household, should be held legally responsible for any illegal actions their kids might take with firearms.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Vengeance.  This dumb POS was bullied for stuttering.  Final revenge, even if those he killed never made fun of him.


I hadn't heard this. People have this condition. Biden did. Our payroll guy at work does. I have to wonder what was going on in that house he grew up in. Something else was possibly really wrong. And something wrong in the house of that Boston killer.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

I just found this Twitter thread dedicated to the victims. So many of the children were 10 year olds.
I love kids that age and the thought of them being mown down by a hail of bullets just became more real and more horrifying.   

(6) Natasha ⚯͛ on Twitter: "Uziyah Garcia, 10. He was in 4th grade. https://t.co/pMpZm6VYvP" / Twitter


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## OneEyedDiva (May 25, 2022)

Now that I've gotten my rant off my chest (for now anyway), I wasn't aware of this shooting until I saw it on one of my news apps early this morning. It took me all I could do to fight back the tears. I'm still getting teary eyed just going through this thread. I can't imagine the heartbreak the parents and families of the victims are going through. I can't imagine they'd even want to send their children back to school for even a couple of days. And the children must be terrified and severely traumatized.  Our children should not have to be afraid to go to school, afraid their school might be next!  Have you noticed most of these shootings are in towns that people feel so safe in...like "nothing like this could possibly happen here"? I can't remember any mass shootings in inner city schools. I pray we won't hear of anymore but with the violence being perpetrated across all types of media, with guns being so readily available and copy cat, wanna be notorious, hateful people out there, I highly doubt this will be the last time.  And I agree with those who replied that it would be better if these shooters who are so dissatisfied with things would just off themselves...leave everybody else alone!

@PamfromTx I got goosebumps when I read your family members are safe...so relieved.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

Remy said:


> I hadn't heard this. People have this condition. Biden did. Our payroll guy at work does. I have to wonder what was going on in that house he grew up in. Something else was possibly really wrong. And something wrong in the house of that Boston killer.


His mother (Texas) is an addict, and was about to be evicted from her mother's home.  Neighbors say son & mother had loud fights & police involvement.

I read this stuff in NYPost this morning.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

"Violence is as American as cherry pie."  H. Rap Brown, July 1967

We've come a long way, baby, to prove the truth of this iconic statement.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> His mother (Texas) is an addict, and was about to be evicted from her mother's home.  Neighbors say son & mother had loud fights & police involvement.
> 
> I read this stuff in NYPost this morning.


Oh wow, had not heard that. And I had the news on earlier. 

I wonder sometimes how people turn out in all different ways. I have a co-worker who told me she and her siblings were taken away by child protective services when she was a child. Her mother was an addict and she believes a neighbor probably made the report. She's a mom, a nice person but she's kind of sad sometimes, I can tell.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

A reality check for those people who think that school shootings are caused by mental illness

This table lists the number of school shootings so far this year i.e. in less than 5 months
If mental illness is the cause then America is not the Land of the Free; it is surely the land of utter madness,


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## Patch (May 25, 2022)

"Stronger background checks"...  If a person is treated for medical illness, that will not show up on a background check.  HIPPA.  In this case, the murderer just turned 18.  Previous interaction with law enforcement would be protected since he was a juvenile at those times.  

Possible solution... Pass legislation requiring a potential firearm owner to wave his/her HIPPA confidentiality so any previous mental issues could be red-flagged.

"Outlaw assault weapons"... Excellent idea.  Remove as many as we can from the streets.  In that same legislation, make it illegal to possess a firearm with a magazine/clip capacity exceeding 10 rounds.  No need for a 30 round capacity... other than a mass shooting!

"Red flag laws"... If a person is convicted of domestic abuse, assault, destruction of property, etc. he/she must give up their firearms for a set period of time while they are evaluated.  During that period if they are found in possession of a firearm, it is an automatic felony with mandatory prison time.  No pleading to a lesser offense.

Mandatory prison time for a crime committed with a firearm... We allow people who shoot other people to plead down to lesser offenses.  If you don't kill them... plead down to a misdemeanor.  If you do kill them... plead down to manslaughter.  No jail time.  Just probation.

Armed security and/or armed teachers in our schools... The murderer in Texas was engaged by an armed security person and two armed police officers.  All three shot at him in an attempt to stop him from entering the school.  The killer had on a body armor and the weapons used did not stop him.  How would a teacher or armed security person stop a killer with two assault rifles and body armor??  

I do agree schools need one single point of entry.  All points of entry need to be locked and secured against outside entry.  The single point of entry should be electronically controlled from a bullet proof observation post just inside the entry.  

None of the above issues will be solved as long as we have millions of dollars flowing into politicians' pockets from the gun lobby.  None of the above issues will be solved until we, as a Country, decide to use our power of the polls to make changes in our elected leadership.  

I laid awake a lot of last night.  I'm 75 years old.  There's not a lot of time I have left on God's Green Earth.  What have I left for my grandchildren and great grandchildren?  A real potential they will be shot dead in a classroom or supermarket or church or... ???


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## Em in Ohio (May 25, 2022)

*HATE-MONGERING  (DEFINITION AND SAMPLE SENTENCE)*
*ADJECTIVE: (especially of speech or writing) arousing or intended to arouse feelings of hatred.*​_*‘inflammatory, hate-mongering rhetoric’*_​​NOUN:  The arousal of feelings of hatred using speech or writing.​_‘hate-mongering and incitement to violence’_​
https://www.lexico.com/definition/hate-mongering

One of the sample sentences:_ ‘I think guns do kill people, though I suspect hate-mongering white supremacist groups _(AND OTHERS*)_ that trade in fear and ignorance have something to do with it as well.’  *my addition_
_*STOP THE HATE, STOP THE BULLYING, AND STOP THE PROLIFERATION OF GUNS!*_

What triggered this horrific act?  An 18 year old child bought a weapon and shot his grandmother in the face before heading to the school to massacre 19 innocent children and others.  We have become a culture that fosters hate more than acceptance and ignores the impact of bullying.  We weaponize people and we push them over the edge.


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## Nathan (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Problem is the extreme 2nd Amenders who insist anyone, for any reason, can buy a gun with no waiting period and the politicians who support these notions, because they are too cowardly to lead.


...not too cowardly about receiving contributions from the NRA:

List of congressional candidates who received campaign money from the National Rifle Association


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## Chet (May 25, 2022)

In a high pressure society like in the U.S., some people explode, usually the unstable ones. We go from road rage at one extreme to mass shootings at the other. I'm glad I'm retired and away from it all.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

Nathan said:


> ...not too cowardly about receiving contributions from the NRA:
> 
> *List of congressional candidates who received campaign money from the National Rifle Association*


What about a list of VOTERS who put them in office and keep them there?  They didn't get there without OUR help.  It is OUR responsibility, and WE are failures.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 25, 2022)

In the US, we let any yahoo get a gun, then we are shocked when any yahoo with a gun massacres a school or a grocery store. Since Buffalo, 500 people have put a bullet through their brains. In this thread, people have blamed the shooting on everything from working parents to the shape of the killer's face. But there is one undeniable fact, you can't shoot up a school without a gun


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## Paco Dennis (May 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What about a list of VOTERS who put them in office and keep them there?  They didn't get there without OUR help.  It is OUR responsibility, and WE are failures.


Those in power stay there because BIG MONEY makes the laws and controls the insidious propaganda.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 25, 2022)

Sorry, this got posted in error. I'm so Frikken angry.


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## win231 (May 25, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> It looks like all schools need to be fortified. Starting at the gate, which needs to be some distance from the school building.
> Have every parent use an entrance card to activate the gate.
> Each child to be admitted individually.
> Armed guards at every school.
> This sounds really scary but extreme measures need to be taken.


Good suggestions, but unlikely due to cost.  And Political Correctness.


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Those in power stay there because BIG MONEY makes the laws and controls the insidious propaganda.


And WE keep them there by OUR indifference to anything outside of OURSELVES.  There is no outrage; there is only generalized malaise.  If it takes effort, WE flee the scene.


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## Packerjohn (May 25, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> @Bonnie ..
> 
> The Buffalo Shooter: Peyton Gendron
> 
> ...


I don't about you but I look at this guy for 1 second and I can tell he is far from normal.  Anyone who sells any kind of weapon to someone that looks like this, should have the store shut down the the owner/manager or employee locked up.  I can hear the "bleeding heart" liberals shouting "What About His Rights.?"  Ya, what about them?  Who gave him the right to kill innocent people?


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## Pepper (May 25, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> I don't about you but I look at this guy for 1 second and I can tell he is far from normal.  Anyone who sells any kind of weapon to someone that looks like this, should have the store shut down the the owner/manager or employee locked up. * I can hear the "bleeding heart" liberals shouting "What About His Rights.?"  Ya, what about them?  Who gave him the right to kill innocent people?*


You have no understanding of American politics if you connect liberals with this or any similar situation.  My last word on politics, except to reiterate you are very wrong in your assessment.


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## Jules (May 25, 2022)

Some very good suggestions, @Patch


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## SeniorBen (May 25, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Those in power stay there because BIG MONEY makes the laws and controls the insidious propaganda.


Yep, the only solution is to get big money out of politics, but that's not going to happen as long as we have a SCOTUS who decided with completely twisted logic that money is speech and therefore can't be regulated.


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## win231 (May 25, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> I don't about you but I look at this guy for 1 second and I can tell he is far from normal.  Anyone who sells any kind of weapon to someone that looks like this, should have the store shut down the the owner/manager or employee locked up.  I can hear the "bleeding heart" liberals shouting "What About His Rights.?"  Ya, what about them?  Who gave him the right to kill innocent people


An example of MMQB - Monday Morning Quarterbacking.  After knowing what a psycho did, you're saying you could have predicted it.
_No one_ can determine someone's mental condition solely on their appearance.

Could you have determined the mental health of these individuals?

Ted Budy - killed at least 36 women.  He was a college graduate, he volunteered at a suicide prevention center, & people who knew him considered him charming.




H. H. Holmes - a pharmacist who had a torture dungeon in his basement.  He murdered  between 35 - 130 people.




John Gacy - hospital volunteer, entertained children, reserve police officer.  Raped & murdered at least 33 young men.




Dean Corll - Tortured, raped & murdered dozens of boys




Randy Kraft - killed at least 16 young men


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## SeniorBen (May 25, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> I don't about you but I look at this guy for 1 second and I can tell he is far from normal.  Anyone who sells any kind of weapon to someone that looks like this, should have the store shut down the the owner/manager or employee locked up.  I can hear the "bleeding heart" liberals shouting "What About His Rights.?"  Ya, what about them?  Who gave him the right to kill innocent people?


The irony is that he was probably bullied because of his looks, which resulted in his hatred of the world and caused him to go on a murder spree. To some extent, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. People who are treated like that aren't going to be well adjusted and productive members of society. Most of the time when they act on their anger and depression, it's directed inward and they kill themselves. Suicide is part of the plan with almost all of these shooters and they want to take as many others with them when they kill themselves.

Maybe if there weren't so many SOBs out there bullying people, these things wouldn't happen so often, but that seems to be just part of human nature. Survival of the fittest. And there's no changing human nature, which is why the only viable solution is banning the most deadly weapons and the weapon of choice for these mass murderers: the AR-15 style rifle. Sure, there will still be mass murders, but not on the scale or frequency that we're seeing.


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## Jeni (May 25, 2022)

Patch said:


> Possible solution... Pass legislation requiring a potential firearm owner to wave his/her HIPPA confidentiality so any previous mental issues could be red-flagged.


So if a person was having ANY issues in life............ they would NOT seek out treatment ............................in case of any background check in future for a gun purchase or perhaps that would be expanded for other items...

Does that sound like a good idea to anyone.... ? 
this is part of the reason some do not seek help instead self medicate with drugs or alcohol perhaps. 

I agree too many people play Monday Morning Quarterback on all of these incidents ...........often based on ever changing details and speculation ....


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## PamfromTx (May 25, 2022)

It's a nightmare in Uvalde.  

I hurt for the children that were killed.  Innocent lives taken too soon.


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

_Uvalde school shooter Salvador Ramos's grandfather has revealed the family had no idea that he legally purchased two AR-15s last week, and described him as a quiet teenager who spent most of his time alone in his room.






Ramos, 18, was shot dead by police yesterday after he killed 19 fourth graders and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.  The gunman's motive remains unclear. He first shot his grandmother in the head at home, then stole her car and drove it to the school, crashing in a ditch before he walked into the classroom and opened fire.

Ramos turned 18 on May 16 and quickly bought two AR-15s and more than three hundred rounds of gun ammunition. They were purchased at the Oasis Outback store in Uvalde,  a 10-minute drive from his grandmother's house.

His grandmother, believed to be 66-year-old Celia Martinez, took him for dinner to Applebee's to celebrate his birthday. On Wednesday morning, her husband Rolando Reyes, 74, told ABC News that neither of them were aware their grandson then bought the guns.

'I didn't know he had weapons. If I'd have known, I would have reported it,' Rolando, who has a past felony conviction and cannot be in a home with firearms, said.

Ramos went to live with his grandparents after arguing with his mother about her cutting out the Wi-Fi in their home.

*Ramos's grandmother survived despite being shot in the head. She is in the hospital. *

The shooter's grandfather also revealed that he was quiet, but would sometimes go to work with him.

'Sometimes I'd take him to work with me. Not all the time, but sometimes. This past year he didn't go to school. He didn't graduate. You would try to tell him but kids nowadays they think they know everything. 

'He was very quiet, he didn't talk very much.' 

The teen did not live with his mother because they had 'problems', the grandfather added. 

On Tuesday, he was out of the house when the teen opened fire. A neighbor called him to tell him his wife had been shot but by the time he got back to the house, Ramos had escaped in his grandmother's car. 

'The neighbor called me and said she'd been shot. When I came over here he said he'd taken off. It still hasn't sunk in,' he said. 

The Call of Duty obsessed gunman bought two weapons including a Daniel Defense AR-15 worth $1,870. He posted a receipt for that purchase on the website Yubo, which was obtained by The Daily Dot on Tuesday after the shooting. 

It is unclear if Ramos, who turned 18 last week, bought both weapons on the Daniel Defense website. 

The site is run out of Georgia and operates by allowing customers to place orders online and then collect them from a local dealer. 

There are no Daniel Defense dealers listed in Uvalde, but several are 100miles away in San Antonio. The ATF confirmed yesterday that Ramos purchased at least one weapon in a local firearms licensee. 

His first purchase was on May 17 for one AR-15 rifle. The next day, he bought 375 rounds of 5.56 ammunition, according to ATF sources cited _


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ught-two-AR-15-rifles-week-18th-birthday.html


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## WhatInThe (May 25, 2022)

Where does an 18 year old get that kind of money to buy two guns, the magazines and ammo. Along with body armor although that's up for debate right now(ballistic plate only?) I think at one of them had a scope on it as well. That's money-where from-a job, a credit card, piggy bank?


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## mrstime (May 25, 2022)

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 25, 2022)

I think relatives of the victims should loudly tell the politicians to shove the shallow mantra: "thoughts and prayers." Reject their cowardly support. Faith without action is meaningless.


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## win231 (May 25, 2022)

Jeni said:


> So if a person was having ANY issues in life............ they would NOT seek out treatment ............................in case of any background check in future for a gun purchase or perhaps that would be expanded for other items...
> 
> Does that sound like a good idea to anyone.... ?
> this is part of the reason some do not seek help instead self medicate with drugs or alcohol perhaps.
> ...


The main inspiration for Monday Morning Quarterback is to appear more intelligent than everyone else by having "all the answers."


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## Della (May 25, 2022)

This idea that if psychiatrists report all their cases to the gun sellers we wont have gun deaths is just an NRA started distraction.  The majority of patients in psychiatric hospitals are girls with anorexia.  

 One of the biggest fears people with schizophrenia have is being "controlled by the government,"  it's one reason it's so hard to get them to see a doctor and get medication.  Some people would like to make that irrational, paranoid fear of government control come true by making their doctors report their illness to a data base, and if you think that some yahoo selling guns at the flea market is going to keep his mouth shut about your diagnosis, think again.  So this form of control would keep schizophrenic people from getting help and medication.  Little known fact-- people with schizophrenia who take medication are _less_ likely to commit violent acts than "normal" people.   

We have to keep guns away from _everyone._  Taking away a person's right to doctor patient confidentiality is a terrible idea.  It's as pointless as trying to guess who will shoot people by looking at pictures of them.


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## Chet (May 25, 2022)

Let's remember that in the vast majority of American schools, there were no shootings and kids attended and came home safely. I see a school bus pick up kids on the corner of my street and everything is fine.


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## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> I think relatives of the victims should loudly tell the politicians to shove the shallow mantra: "thoughts and prayers." Reject their cowardly support. Faith without action is meaningless.


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## Paco Dennis (May 25, 2022)

Do what New Zeland did after their tragic school shooting. Have the government BUY all the guns. Hey, they could kill 2 birds with one stone. Buy all the guns and send them to Ukraine! That should surely save lives.


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

I keep listening to updated reports on the radio whilst travelling to work.
This mornings report went for more than 5 minutes and I was continually wiping teats from my eyes.
I feel this so much, young children slain, teachers slain.
Imagine being one of the children in those classrooms watching this happening. Those that were not killed are going to have a very hard life into the future.


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## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> The irony is that he was probably bullied because of his looks, which resulted in his hatred of the world and caused him to go on a murder spree. To some extent, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. People who are treated like that aren't going to be well adjusted and productive members of society. Most of the time when they act on their anger and depression, it's directed inward and they kill themselves. Suicide is part of the plan with almost all of these shooters and they want to take as many others with them when they kill themselves.
> 
> Maybe if there weren't so many SOBs out there bullying people, these things wouldn't happen so often, but that seems to be just part of human nature. Survival of the fittest. And there's no changing human nature, which is why the only viable solution is banning the most deadly weapons and the weapon of choice for these mass murderers: the AR-15 style rifle. Sure, there will still be mass murders, but not on the scale or frequency that we're seeing.


 I have spoken about bullying at school and there were many _men who said it is up to the child being bullied to stand up for themselves._
What a terrible way to look at this situation. I was bullied and beaten at school. There was no way I could have stood up to those standing over me.
The reason bullies pick on certain children is because the child is naturally reserved, timid, quite. An easy target for the cowardly bully.
Much more needs to be done about those who bully.
Maybe at the end of a school day, someone needs to review the school cctv to see who is standing over people.
Yes, this will only pick up the overt offenders, much more goes on on the sly.


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## Tish (May 25, 2022)

The gun laws need to be tightened.


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## SeniorBen (May 25, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> I have spoken about bullying at school and there were many _men who said it is up to the child being bullied to stand up for themselves._
> What a terrible way to look at this situation. I was bullied and beaten at school. There was no way I could have stood up to those standing over me.
> The reason bullies pick on certain children is because the child is naturally reserved, timid, quite. An easy target for the cowardly bully.
> Much more needs to be done about those who bully.
> ...


This kid's problems went further than that. His mother sounds like a real loser/drug addict who emotionally abused her son to the point where he went to live with his grandparents.

He was bullied at school, bullied at home, had a speech impediment and few friends. He also had easy access to high-powered, high-capacity firearms. The rest is history.


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## Jace (May 25, 2022)

Going in another direction...
Even " before all the incidents"
When my kids were in school...you couldn't just walk in...after school started 
And you wanted to get in..the doors were locked and you had to geyt "buzzed in".
Can't believe all schools Don't do this..
Why...Hasn't this be done  to keep kids safe!
When are THEY going to do something to keep all kids safe??


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## Lewkat (May 25, 2022)

There was a time when bullying at school was not tolerated.  Sadly, as a few generations have passed, the kids are protected by their parents who will never accept that their kid is a bully.  Also, since we are so sue conscious, no one wants to get involved for fear of losing everything.  Let us be clear; in the USA our Constitution does not contain one word regarding one's right to privacy.  No where can you find that word, yet some smart aleck law clerks for our Supreme Court Justices circumvented one's right to a pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, equates with privacy and it has been accepted in several cases as case law.  But to intervene in a bullying situation no one's right to privacy is being abrogated and I feel it is incumbent upon teachers, parents and anyone else to put a stop to it before it gets out of hand.  That's why all this bullying has been what is termed, "overlooked."  Ignorance is not bliss, folks.


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## win231 (May 25, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> I have spoken about bullying at school and there were many _men who said it is up to the child being bullied to stand up for themselves._
> What a terrible way to look at this situation. I was bullied and beaten at school. There was no way I could have stood up to those standing over me.
> The reason bullies pick on certain children is because the child is naturally reserved, timid, quite. An easy target for the cowardly bully.
> Much more needs to be done about those who bully.
> ...


When I spoke to my moronic school administrators about being bullied ("Fatso, Chubby, 4 eyes, pushing & shoving, etc")  I was told, "You are old enough to fight your own battles."
I took their advice - & was suspended for Fighting in School.  
My classmates never knew how lucky they were that I hated violence even more than I hated them - considering what I could have done to them.


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## hollydolly (May 25, 2022)

_The mother of the sick school shooter who shot dead 19 children and two teachers in Texas has claimed he 'wasn't a violent person'.

Adriana Reyes said she was 'surprised' Salvador Ramos opened fire in a horrific killing spree at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde yesterday.

She admitted her son was a loner who 'kept to himself and didn't have many friends' but shot down reports she had a toxic relationship with him.

In an exclusive interview with DailyMail.com she did not address claims she was a drug addict who saw the boy ditch her and go to live with his grandmother Celia Gonzalez.

Reyes was speaking from the bedside of Gonzalez, 66, as she recovers from being blasted in the face by her vile grandson before he went on a rampage and shot dead 19 children and two teachers.

He had bought two AR-15 assault rifles, bragged about them on social media and suggested he would commit an atrocity before the deadly attack.

But earlier today Ramos' grandfather revealed the family had no idea he legally purchased the two weapons last week.

Rolando Reyes, 74, Gonzalez's husband, also claimed his grandson had been a quiet teenager who spent most of his time alone in his room.

The mother... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...The injured grandmother..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_






_Speaking  from San Antonio, Reyes said: 'My son wasn't a violent person. I'm surprised by what he did.

'I pray for those families. I'm praying for all of those innocent children, yes I am. They [the children] had no part in this.'

She was speaking from the hospital where her mother Gonzalez was still being treated for the gunshot wounds to her face.

She also slapped down reports she had a toxic relationship with her son that may have warped his personality. She continued: 'I had a good relationship with him. He kept to himself; he didn't have many friends.'

She said the last time she spoke with him was last Monday, on his birthday, adding: 'I had a card and a Snoopy stuffed animal to give to him.'

She claims she did not know where Salvador shot her mother but added, me and my sister are going to care for her when she gets home to Uvalde._


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## Jules (May 25, 2022)

Jace said:


> And you wanted to get in..the doors were locked and you had to geyt "buzzed in".


It slows them down but won’t prevent a determined nut.  If a shooter wants to kill, he can just stand at the school fence and kill many with that AR15.


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## chic (May 25, 2022)

This tragic event is the result of what has happened to us as a a people over the past 2+ years where our leaders have created a desperate society by enforcing a new order almost overnight while they remain untouched by their dictus. It's inequality on every level with the worst possible outcome.


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## oldman (May 25, 2022)

All the schools in my area keep the doors locked throughout the day. I officiate high school basketball and still do afternoon games beginning at 4:00, which are junior high games. I have to show ID to enter. 


Warrigal said:


> Is this the case in every state?


Not necessarily.


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## Chet (May 25, 2022)

oldman said:


> All the schools in my area keep the doors locked throughout the day. I officiate high school basketball and still do afternoon games beginning at 4:00, which are junior high games. I have to show ID to enter.
> 
> Not necessarily.


In the end, school security is the school's responsibility.


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## StarSong (May 25, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> There was a time when bullying at school was not tolerated.  Sadly, as a few generations have passed, the kids are protected by their parents who will never accept that their kid is a bully.  Also, since we are so sue conscious, no one wants to get involved for fear of losing everything.  Let us be clear; in the USA our Constitution does not contain one word regarding one's right to privacy.  No where can you find that word, yet some smart aleck law clerks for our Supreme Court Justices circumvented one's right to a pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, equates with privacy and it has been accepted in several cases as case law.  But to intervene in a bullying situation no one's right to privacy is being abrogated and I feel it is incumbent upon teachers, parents and anyone else to put a stop to it before it gets out of hand.  That's why all this bullying has been what is termed, "overlooked."  Ignorance is not bliss, folks.


I never knew a time when schools seriously intervened when kids were bullied.  Certainly not when I grew up in the 50s & 60s in NY & NJ.  Children were left to sort problems out for themselves and if they were a little "different" - chubby, very short (boys), disabled, odd looking, effeminate boys or masculine girls, awkward, unable to manage their tempers, and so forth, they were ostracized or teased.  After school fistfights between boys were commonplace.

During childhood and teens nearly everyone yearns to fit in, above all else.

To me, the lesson of this shooting is not whether this boy was bullied or mentally ill, but rather why our country doesn't have the courage to stand up to people who demand the right to unfettered access to lethal weapons.  As it stands now, virtually anyone with a mind to "settle a score" can get access to weaponry that allows him (and it's nearly always a him) to do so. In spades.

Yes, this young man had a rough life.  I get it.  That said, the 19 children and 2 adults he murdered in cold blood were not responsible for his miseries.

Every time I go to Costco, a grocery store, or a place where many are gathered, I cannot help but wonder if this will be my unlucky day.  I look around to search out where I could run, where I could hide?  How long would it take the police to arrive?  I have the same worries for my children and grandchildren as they go about their lives.

Will they be safe or will some crazed person with the means and motive cut short their lives?

Out of control gun ownership, particularly of automatic weaponry is little more than cutting our noses to spite our faces.  When the next shooting happens - and there will be a next one, very soon - just remember to not ask for whom the bell tolls.  It tolls for us all.

(Edited to correct grammatical errors.)


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## StarSong (May 25, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Come on people, stop looking at the state, the color of their skin.  This is about the mentally ill.  This happens when mentally ill people get to the breaking point.  They just want us to see and know the pain they were in and we did nothing to help them.  Would anybody in their right mind do this, I don't think so.


Then let's stop putting guns and other war-style weaponry in the hands of people whose mental status and motives we cannot determine.  


Warrigal said:


> I hesitate to say this but freedom is very highly valued in US and the gun has been elevated to the symbol of freedom. It is heresy to say that it is actually a just a tool for killing people you don't like, especially for racists and fanatics.


So true.  


Bretrick said:


> *It looks like all schools need to be fortified. Starting at the gate, which needs to be some distance from the school building.
> Have every parent use an entrance card to activate the gate.
> Each child to be admitted individually.
> Armed guards at every school.*
> This sounds really scary but extreme measures need to be taken.


You must be kidding.  How about eliminating the weapons instead?  We've got to stop the free flow of guns and rifles that wreak mass destruction.  And yes, I consider 21 people in a classroom as an act of mass destruction.  

When you find yourself in a deep hole the wisest first action is to stop digging.  
Americans seem to think the best solutions involve bigger, more powerful shovels in larger quantities.


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## WhatInThe (May 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> _The mother of the sick school shooter who shot dead 19 children and two teachers in Texas has claimed he 'wasn't a violent person'.
> 
> Adriana Reyes said she was 'surprised' Salvador Ramos opened fire in a horrific killing spree at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde yesterday.
> 
> ...


Considering the murderer wanted to live with his grandparents and the mother wants to downplay their poor relationship is ridiculous. She's part of the reason he was a troubled kid that turned into a mass murderer. Where was the father although the grandfather seems to have stepped in.

Read where he wore eye liner to work at a Wendy's and he got mocked for that as well. So mocked in school and at work-surprised he didn't go postal there. A Wendy's salary can buy an 18 year old a cell phone and 2 thousand dollar rifles? And gear?

And conflicting reports-Did he dropout of high school or did he complete the year and was due to graduate himself?


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## morgan (May 25, 2022)

Those who are bullied may not have a mental illness, but constant bullying develops a sickness in the head, so when the rage comes the bullied cannot see or think straight, so let fly at all and sundry. I am making no excuses for this shooter, but the signs were there, he was bullied relentlessly, according to reports he cut hisface. A bad home life, a bad school life. Life must have stunk for him and so the innocent pay. What is the answer? I say close the gun shops, yes an impossible dream.


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## dseag2 (May 25, 2022)

I watched the news this morning (for a change) and I cried as they described each of these young victims and the 2 teachers.  One student had just been to an awards ceremony with this mother.  Another was holding up an achievement award for making "A"s.  She was calling 911 as she was shot.  It just broke my heart.  These kids were going to make something of themselves, and now they don't have the chance to bring their talents into a world that badly needs them.  I also thought of how these parents must feel going into an empty room with memories of their children.  It was just emotionally overwhelming.

I was in Walgreens today and a young mother told the cashier she was picking up her daughter from school across the street.  The cashier told her to cherish every moment with her child.  This is just all so wrong.


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## dseag2 (May 25, 2022)

Interesting Stephen Colbert and Jacinda Ardern on gun control in New Zealand.  So sad that there a so many US politicians in the pocket of the NRA so this can't happen here.


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## Don M. (May 25, 2022)

Every time there is one of these mass shootings, the politicians offer their "thoughts and prayers", then soon go back to spending most of their time meeting with the Lobbyists.  Trying to substantially reduce the number of firearms in our civilian population is basically a lost cause.  There are nearly 400 million guns in the hands of our people, and there is NO national database on gun ownership. 

About all that these highly publicized shootings do is to drive gun and ammo sales even higher.  IF there was a program initiated trying to get gun owners to turn in their weapons to the government, only a small fraction of owners would comply.  And, if there was a mandate ordering the confiscation of guns, we would quickly descend into a civil war.  Even if such moves were successful in the general population, there would still be a huge number if weapons in the hands of the criminals....placing most people at increased risk.

There is NO easy or effective solution to these tragedies.  A substantial portion of our population are just walking time bombs that can go over the edge at the slightest provocation.


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## Alice November (May 25, 2022)

This kind of gun can kill a lot of little children quickly. He locked the door behind him, they had no where to run inthat single classroom.

From France 24 News:

"The type of weapon, commonly known as the AR-15, is once again under scrutiny after a gunman used the rifle to kill 19 children and two teachers in Uvalde Texas. Here are some key facts about the AR-15:

- Why are AR-15s so lethal? -

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning a user can fire multiple shots in quick succession.

Its cousin, the M-16, has been used by the US military since Vietnam. While some military assault rifles are fully automatic, civilians are prohibited from owning such weapons in most circumstances.

AR-15s fire high-velocity bullets that travel at triple the speed of a handgun round, are accurate over long distances, and cause expansive, devastating wounds to soft tissue and internal organs.

Salvador Ramos used a high-end AR-15 from manufacturer Daniel Defense to attack Robb Elementary school on Tuesday.

While handguns account for more deaths per year in the United States, AR-15s are frequently used in high-profile mass shootings."


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

@dseag2 Have you seen the spin Faux News is putting on Beto O'Rourke? 

@terry123 Are some past online posts coming out that this murderer made? I hadn't heard that. Agree with your post quoted above. I'm not buying the 'we had no idea' family crap. Some parents just don't want to get what is going on with their kids. Easier for them.


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## Remy (May 25, 2022)

@hollydolly Very very interesting and frankly very sad. I'm not believing anything coming from that family at this point.

Does everyone in your part of the world think we are nuts?


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## dseag2 (May 25, 2022)

Remy said:


> @dseag2 Have you seen the spin Faux News is putting on Beto O'Rourke?


No, but I can only imagine.  I go to the gym several days a week and there are TVs lining the wall.  I am usually on an elliptical machine positioned between Fox News and CNN.  I laugh when I see the opposing spins they put on their stories.  It's actually sad, but I have to laugh at something.

I can't watch Fox News on Youtube because Maria Bartiromo ads pop up and she scares me!


----------



## Nathan (May 25, 2022)

School massacres May 1998 to today:


```
Thurston High School.
Columbine High School.
Heritage High School.
Deming Middle School.
Fort Gibson Middle School.
Buell Elementary School.
Lake Worth Middle School.
University of Arkansas.
Junipero Serra High School.
Santana High School.
Bishop Neumann High School.
Pacific Lutheran University.
Granite Hills High School.
Lew Wallace High School.
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School.
Appalachian School of Law.
Washington High School.
Conception Abbey.
Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
University of Arizona.
Lincoln High School.
John McDonogh High School.
Red Lion Area Junior High School.
Case Western Reserve University.
Rocori High School.
Ballou High School.
Randallstown High School.
Bowen High School.
Red Lake Senior High School.
Harlan Community Academy High School.
Campbell County High School.
Milwee Middle School.
Roseburg High School.
Pine Middle School.
Essex Elementary School.
Duquesne University.
Platte Canyon High School.
Weston High School.
West Nickel Mines School.
Joplin Memorial Middle School.
Henry Foss High School.
Compton Centennial High School.
Virginia Tech.
Success Tech Academy.
Miami Carol City Senior High School.
Hamilton High School.
Louisiana Technical College.
Mitchell High School.
E.O. Green Junior High School.
Northern Illinois University.
Lakota Middle School.
Knoxville Central High School.
Willoughby South High School.
Henry Ford High School.
University of Central Arkansas.
Dillard High School.
Dunbar High School.
Hampton University.
Harvard College.
Larose-Cut Off Middle School.
International Studies Academy.
Skyline College.
Discovery Middle School.
University of Alabama.
DeKalb School.
Deer Creek Middle School.
Ohio State University.
Mumford High School.
University of Texas.
Kelly Elementary School.
Marinette High School.
Aurora Central High School.
Millard South High School.
Martinsville West Middle School.
Worthing High School.
Millard South High School.
Highlands Intermediate School.
Cape Fear High School.
Chardon High School.
Episcopal School of Jacksonville.
Oikos University.
Hamilton High School.
Perry Hall School.
Normal Community High School.
University of South Alabama.
Banner Academy South.
University of Southern California.
Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School.
Taft Union High School.
Osborn High School.
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts.
Hazard Community and Technical College.
Chicago State University.
Lone Star College-North.
Cesar Chavez High School.
Price Middle School.
University of Central Florida.
New River Community College.
Grambling State University.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School.
Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy.
North Panola High School.
Carver High School.
Agape Christian Academy.
Sparks Middle School.
North Carolina A&T State University.
Stephenson High School.
Brashear High School.
West Orange High School.
Arapahoe High School.
Edison High School.
Liberty Technology Magnet High School.
Hillhouse High School.
Berrendo Middle School.
Purdue University.
South Carolina State University.
Los Angeles Valley College.
Charles F. Brush High School.
University of Southern California.
Georgia Regents University.
Academy of Knowledge Preschool.
Benjamin Banneker High School.
D. H. Conley High School.
East English Village Preparatory Academy.
Paine College.
Georgia Gwinnett College.
John F. Kennedy High School.
Seattle Pacific University.
Reynolds High School.
Indiana State University.
Albemarle High School.
Fern Creek Traditional High School.
Langston Hughes High School.
Marysville Pilchuck High School.
Florida State University.
Miami Carol City High School.
Rogers State University.
Rosemary Anderson High School.
Wisconsin Lutheran High School.
Frederick High School.
Tenaya Middle School.
Bethune-Cookman University.
Pershing Elementary School.
Wayne Community College.
J.B. Martin Middle School.
Southwestern Classical Academy.
Savannah State University.
Harrisburg High School.
Umpqua Community College.
Northern Arizona University.
Texas Southern University.
Tennessee State University.
Winston-Salem State University.
Mojave High School.
Lawrence Central High School.
Franklin High School.
Muskegon Heights High School.
Independence High School.
Madison High School.
Antigo High School.
University of California-Los Angeles.
Jeremiah Burke High School.
Alpine High School.
Townville Elementary School.
Vigor High School.
Linden McKinley STEM Academy.
June Jordan High School for Equity.
Union Middle School.
Mueller Park Junior High School.
West Liberty-Salem High School.
University of Washington.
King City High School.
North Park Elementary School.
North Lake College.
Freeman High School.
Mattoon High School.
Rancho Tehama Elementary School.
Aztec High School.
Wake Forest University.
Italy High School.
NET Charter High School.
Marshall County High School.
Sal Castro Middle School.
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Great Mills High School
Central Michigan University
Huffman High School
Frederick Douglass High School
Forest High School
Highland High School
Dixon High School
Santa Fe High School
Noblesville West Middle School
University of North Carolina Charlotte
STEM School Highlands Ranch
Edgewood High School
Palm Beach Central High School
Providence Career & Technical Academy
Fairley High School (school bus)
Canyon Springs High School
Dennis Intermediate School
Florida International University
Central Elementary School
Cascade Middle School
Davidson High School
Prairie View A & M University
Altascocita High School
Central Academy of Excellence
Cleveland High School
Robert E. Lee High School
Cheyenne South High School
Grambling State University
Blountsville Elementary School
Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)
Prescott High School
College of the Mainland
Wynbrooke Elementary School
UNC Charlotte
Riverview Florida (school bus)
Second Chance High School
Carman-Ainsworth High School
Williwaw Elementary School
Monroe Clark Middle School
Central Catholic High School
Jeanette High School
Eastern Hills High School
DeAnza High School
Ridgway High School
Reginald F. Lewis High School
Saugus High School
Pleasantville High School
Waukesha South High School
Oshkosh High School
Catholic Academy of New Haven
Bellaire High School
North Crowley High School
McAuliffe Elementary School
South Oak Cliff High School
Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
Western Illinois University
Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School
```


----------



## Abbi Dabbi Doo (May 25, 2022)

It is extremely sad and disgusting to hear all the political bantering back and forth on this when parents of these children who were killed are having to set up funeral arrangements. I can't even imagine going through that and these politicians offer up thoughts and prayers, but then go on with all this disgusting bantering. It is sad.


----------



## Warrigal (May 25, 2022)

Tish said:


> The gun laws need to be tightened.


They need to be uniform national laws too. This can only be done with the co-operation of the states. 
It will take either a great leader or many more dead children and senior citizens before that will happen.
Hell will probably freeze over before co-operation in the national interest will come about.


----------



## morgan (May 25, 2022)

There are almost 65,000 gun dealerships in the US, which is more than supermarkets, McDonald's and Starbucks put together.

Almost 20 Million guns were sold last year alone in the US.


----------



## Bretrick (May 25, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Then let's stop putting guns and other war-style weaponry in the hands of people whose mental status and motives we cannot determine.
> 
> So true.
> 
> ...


The reality is that guns are not going to be gotten rid of so some other methods need to be considered.
How long will it take before those extra guns are got rid of?
A decade, two decades? Not at all? So many more innocent children and adults will be slain.
That, I think is the sad reality


----------



## Warrigal (May 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> School massacres May 1998 to today:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


When is enough enough? When is it the right time to attack the cancer of gun violence?


----------



## StarSong (May 26, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> The reality is that guns are not going to be gotten rid of so some other methods need to be considered.
> *How long will it take before those extra guns are got rid of?
> A decade, two decades?* Not at all? So many more innocent children and adults will be slain.
> That, I think is the sad reality


It's been 23 years since the shooting at Columbine.  If we'd taken serious action then, we'd be very unlikely to be having this conversation now.  

If not now, when?  This can keeps getting kicked down a road heavily greased with worthless "thoughts and prayers" and wringing of hands.  Meantime, parents plan funerals and children get the wits frightened out of them with _active shooter_ drills. 

It's not that Americans value our guns more than our children, it's that many Americans value their guns over other people's children.


----------



## ElCastor (May 26, 2022)

I'm all for the right to keep and bear arms. Many of us may live in dangerous neighborhoods and have a right to defend themselves, families, and homes, and a few still hunt ... BUT I see no need for assault rifles, or semi-automatics for that matter, other than in the hands of the police and military. BTW, for home defense a short barrel 20 gauge pump action shotgun is probably the best choice. Bullets can go through walls and kill a neighbor. That said, as we all know, if guns are outlawed, outlaws will still have guns.


----------



## Paco Dennis (May 26, 2022)




----------



## oldman (May 26, 2022)

I think most of us would agree that these mass murderers are mentally ill. I would like to see the government order that all new gun purchasers give a sample of their DNA, which would be run through the federal database CODIS. If it comes back that the person is a felon, no gun. 

Anyone that had been arrested for certain crimes, including; any crime where a weapon was used would eliminate that person being able to purchase a gun, including a domestic issue with a weapon being displayed.

I just don’t know how we can divide the crazies from those that are sane.


----------



## Jules (May 26, 2022)

Just brainstorming.  These shooters have romanticized themselves into thinking they’re ‘manly and tough and …’. Maybe it takes something like influencers to denigrate these macho concepts.


----------



## Paco Dennis (May 26, 2022)

Jules said:


> Just brainstorming.  These shooters have romanticized themselves into thinking they’re ‘manly and tough and …’. Maybe it takes something like influencers to denigrate these macho concepts.


I think that is the way to go. We have a lot of work to do though. Mankind has been using "better" weapons to defeat their "enemy" for a whole lot of years. From the club to the atom bomb and all the paraphernalia in between. Plus all the movies with shooting and killing and 100's of violent video games. Our world has been living with this insane view for too long. Who is brave enough to stand against this. Quit promoting violence in everything you do.


----------



## Knight (May 26, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> They need to be uniform national laws too. This can only be done with the co-operation of the states.
> It will take either a great leader or many more dead children and senior citizens before that will happen.
> Hell will probably freeze over before co-operation in the national interest will come about.


Lack of uniform gun laws IMO is a major part of why gun ownership & use is  a contributing factor in the use of guns in America.


----------



## Don M. (May 26, 2022)

Todays kids have been brainwashed into thinking that Violence is Normal.  Movies, TV shows, video games, etc., etc., all seem to be centered around violence.  Then, when they face some stress, they think that violence is the solution.  Our media makes billions off such "entertainment", so they are unlikely to tone down all their violence.


----------



## WhatInThe (May 26, 2022)

It's looking more and more like there was a delay with police waiting 40 minutes to enter the building and the crowd which included some parents urging to the police  to go in.

https://www.newser.com/story/321007...nter-classroom-where-kids-were-massacred.html

Don't know why or what happened other than they were waiting for a key(personally  you bust the door open or they could've smashed/opened some windows). I thought the strategy with active shooters was/is to engage as soon as possible.


----------



## Judycat (May 26, 2022)

No one is going to do anything because we live in a semi-fantasy world where everyone is presumed to be responsible once they reach the magical age of 18.


----------



## Sachet (May 26, 2022)

The hardcore gun rights advocates often key on the 2nd amendment and 1776.
I say let them own all the guns they want, but only period correct muskets. One shot at a time would solve many problems when attempting mass murder.


----------



## Nathan (May 26, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> When is enough enough? When is it the right time to attack the cancer of gun violence?


The politicians that cherish the receipt of NRA contributions over the lives of fellow Americans need to be removed.


----------



## Nathan (May 26, 2022)

oldman said:


> I think most of us would agree that these mass murderers are mentally ill. I would like to see the government order that all new gun purchasers give a sample of their DNA, which would be run through the federal database CODIS. If it comes back that the person is a felon, no gun.
> 
> Anyone that had been arrested for certain crimes, including; any crime where a weapon was used would eliminate that person being able to purchase a gun, including a domestic issue with a weapon being displayed.
> 
> I just don’t know how we can divide the crazies from those that are sane.


Felons are already monitored, and to my knowledge are barred from owning firearms.   

Most all of these school shootings are done by children, no hard core felons storming in and murdering 4th graders.    Young boys / men are poorly socialized, in my opinion.  They need to know how to feel masculine without having the power of killing people at their finger tips.

Anyone familiar with the video games that [mostly boys, some girls] are playing?   Well, they all involve blasting other players with all kinds of weapons.  What do you think?   https://www.ign.com/articles/the-best-100-video-games-of-all-time


----------



## Sunny (May 26, 2022)

From today's Washington Post:

Why Nothing Will Change After Uvalde
By Brian Broome

Nobody’s going to do anything, right? I’m betting you already know, in the wake of the deaths of 19 children at an elementary school in Texas, that nobody is going to do a single thing.
Oh, yes, for a while, people will stand behind microphones. Some will be sincere. There will be a vigil, maybe many vigils. Perhaps some balloons will be released into the air. But no one will do anything substantial about the reality that, in the United States, you can pick up a gun and mow down people for no reason.

The fact of the matter is that nobody has done anything since Columbine in 1999, or Virginia Tech in 2007, or Sandy Hook in 2012, or Parkland in 2018, and there’s virtually no chance that anyone is going to do anything now. It doesn’t matter that it’s children we’re talking about again. Nothing happened after innocent children were slaughtered the last time, or the time before that, and nothing is going to be done now. Nothing happens after it occurs in elementary schools, or grocery stores, college campuses or churches. Instead, we always defer to those whose fears outweigh others’ right to continue living.

The gun is a holy relic in America. A sacred talisman. More important than life itself.
We are living in a twisted version of “The Lottery,” the classic short story by Shirley Jackson. In the story, the residents of a small fictional town hurry about their day preparing for a big ceremony, which is slowly revealed to be a ritual human sacrifice. Death by stoning. Each year, someone is chosen at random to die, for the good of the town. So that the rest of the townspeople can feel safe. Perhaps so that their god can be appeased, or good crops can be enjoyed.


That’s where we live now. We live in a culture where human beings are randomly chosen to die so that those who feel unseen or who fear the unknown or just love guns don’t have to feel afraid.

But our sacrifices aren’t yearly. They’re daily. One right after the other. Unlike the characters in Jackson’s story, the people who die in our tale lost their humanity long ago and are immortalized only as statistics. Numbers to be added up.


Those of us who survive get to shake our heads and ask “Why?” while secretly just feeling lucky that it wasn’t us or someone we love who had to pay the price. This is also why nothing will be done. Because it didn’t affect us. We can push it out of our minds and say what a great tragedy it is. But we don’t have to do much else.
We won’t do anything because those among us who think their fears and their rights are the same thing hold all the cards. Because those who believe a boogeyman is lurking around every corner have agents walking the halls of our government to ensure that these shootings change nothing. We rarely note that most of these shooters are men who are angry and antisocial. And, unless we come up with a cure for angry and antisocial men and boys, these mass murders will continue.

We won’t do anything about this problem because we are not the land of the free and home of the brave that we think we are. We have that backward: America is the land of the fearful and trapped. We don’t feel our children are safe. We don’t think we can change this dreadful landscape. But we’ll watch politicians make speeches. We’ll see all the memes on social media and read all the opinion pieces from people like me. But, in the end, we’ll move on until there are new human sacrifices to make us forget about the old ones.
Because it’s important that the fearful feel safe. And we’re all fair game to be sacrificed.


----------



## WhatInThe (May 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Felons are already monitored, and to my knowledge are barred from owning firearms.
> 
> Most all of these school shootings are done by children, no hard core felons storming in and murdering 4th graders.    Young boys / men are poorly socialized, in my opinion.  They need to know how to feel masculine without having the power of killing people at their finger tips.
> 
> Anyone familiar with the video games that [mostly boys, some girls] are playing?   Well, they all involve blasting other players with all kinds of weapons.  What do you think?   https://www.ign.com/articles/the-best-100-video-games-of-all-time


That's the thing there is a definite lack of coping skills in general. Not just social but practical as well. You have gangster want to bes shooting at their prey  frequently hitting innocents and not even killing their actual target.

 Some say teen violence is too many up start gangs/gangster want to bes trying to establish themselves ie there is no mafia type don keeping them in line because old school gangsters didn't want attention involving innocent bystanders bring. There is frequently the lack of a father as with this murderer as well.


----------



## rgp (May 26, 2022)

Tish said:


> The gun laws need to be tightened.




Tightened ? What exactly does that mean ? You do not live here, do you even know our gun laws ?


----------



## Murrmurr (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> How would a waiting period have prevented this?


More thorough background checks result in longer waiting periods. The main reason background checks are merely cursory is because people get pissed off over having to wait for their firearms sale to complete so they can take their purchase home.

imo, too-freaking-bad about the wait, but background checks are extremely important. They should be as thorough as possible. And the technology needs improvement so that background checks _can_ be as thorough as possible.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> More thorough background checks result in longer waiting periods. The main reason background checks are merely cursory is because people get pissed off over having to wait for their firearms sale to complete so they can take their purchase home.
> 
> imo, too-freaking-bad about the wait, but background checks are extremely important. They should be as thorough as possible. And the technology needs improvement so that background checks _can_ be as thorough as possible.


I never minded the 10-day wait, even though it's rather silly.  What's the purpose of making someone wait to take possession of a gun when they already have other guns? (if they intended to use a gun for a crime).
Here in CA, background checks are very detailed.


----------



## hawkdon (May 26, 2022)

Just watched the news conf on Cnn, and boy the
jouno's were in their prime, they'd heard rumors of
cops not rushing in "quickly" enough, so they pummeled
the news presenter with accusations and questions...
amazing how these folks can come up with their own
conspiricies in attempting to cover a news conference.....


----------



## WhatInThe (May 26, 2022)

A question they could add is what address will the buyer be taking the gun home to. Reason being his grandfather was a convicted felon and could not possess a firearm. The killer's mother was a known drug addict and police were call to her home. She probably has some crime on her resume. Shouldn't have to pay for the sins of others but maybe those issues need extra scrutiny.

Should add since an 18 year old unless an active career criminal won't have much of a record to check except for drving record, maybe a store credit card. 

Would giving access to an 18 year old gun buyers juvenile and/or high school records be too much?


----------



## Murrmurr (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> I never minded the 10-day wait, even though it's rather silly.  *What's the purpose* of making someone wait to take possession of a gun *when they already have other guns?* (if they intended to use a gun for a crime).
> Here in CA, background checks are very detailed.


Good point. It's mainly just added security or assurance that certain individuals can't purchase a firearm, but as you and I know, if someone who wouldn't pass even a cursory background check wants a gun, he can get one through a gang member or steal one from a family member or a good citizen.


----------



## Don M. (May 26, 2022)

Many of these highly publicized mass shootings have been committed by Teen Agers....Sandy Hook, Columbine, the Buffalo, NY grocery store, and now, this Texas school shooting.  There is an Easy Common Sense measure that could be taken to reduce these incidents.....Make it Illegal to purchase a firearm until age 21.  AND, if there are firearms in a household who has teenagers, hold the Parents equally responsible for any illegal gun activities their kids might take.  

After all, a person can't buy a bottle of whiskey unless they are over 21....which is more dangerous...a bottle of booze, or a gun???

If anyone here is overly concerned about these tragedies, I would URGE you to write your Congressman/Senator, and suggest this minor change to our laws...I have Already Done So.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I'm all for the right to keep and bear arms. Many of us may live in dangerous neighborhoods and have a right to defend themselves, families, and homes, and a few still hunt ... BUT I see no need for assault rifles, or semi-automatics for that matter, other than in the hands of the police and military. BTW, for home defense a short barrel 20 gauge pump action shotgun is probably the best choice. Bullets can go through walls and kill a neighbor. That said, as we all know, if guns are outlawed, outlaws will still have guns.


It's all well & good to say "No one needs a semi-auto or "Assault Rifle."  A crime victim doesn't have the luxury of deciding how many home invasion robbers will be involved.  Please explain how a gun with limited magazine capacity would have helped in these situations involving multiple assailants:


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

WhatInThe said:


> A question they could add is what address will the buyer be taking the gun home to. Reason being his grandfather was a convicted felon and could not possess a firearm. The killer's mother was a known drug addict and police were call to her home. She probably has some crime on her resume. Shouldn't have to pay for the sins of others but maybe those issues need extra scrutiny


In CA, if anyone living in the residence is a felon, NO firearms or ammunition are allowed in the home.
The problem is that _criminals become criminals by breaking the law,_ so the "Restrictions" are of little concern.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

Don M. said:


> Many of these highly publicized mass shootings have been committed by Teen Agers....Sandy Hook, Columbine, the Buffalo, NY grocery store, and now, this Texas school shooting.  There is an Easy Common Sense measure that could be taken to reduce these incidents.....Make it Illegal to purchase a firearm until age 21.  AND, if there are firearms in a household who has teenagers, hold the Parents equally responsible for any illegal gun activities their kids might take.
> 
> After all, a person can't buy a bottle of whiskey unless they are over 21....which is more dangerous...a bottle of booze, or a gun???
> 
> If anyone here is overly concerned about these tragedies, I would URGE you to write your Congressman/Senator, and suggest this minor change to our laws...I have Already Done So.


IMO, there isn't much difference between a mentally-ill 18 year old & a mentally-ill 21 year old.
And mass murderers come in all ages.
The Las Vegas murderer was 64.  61 killed, 817 injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting


----------



## Buckeye (May 26, 2022)

What is predictable is that this event and others like it will drive up gun and ammunition sales as a reaction to all the knee jerk demands about adding to our nation's gun laws.


----------



## ElCastor (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> It's all well & good to say "No one needs a semi-auto or "Assault Rifle."  A crime victim doesn't have the luxury of deciding how many home invasion robbers will be involved.  Please explain how a gun with limited magazine capacity would have helped in these situations involving multiple assailants:


Stevens 12 or 20 gauge pump, 5 shell magazine. Not enough? Load it with buckshot. Still not enough? Maybe you would prefer a full on machine gun or maybe a grenade launcher?  I'm sure you would, but maybe it's just time to move to a safer neighborhood.


----------



## JustBonee (May 26, 2022)

Today, Thursday .....  another death attributed to the school shootings ..

The husband of a teacher slain in Tuesday's shooting in Ulvade, Texas, suffered a fatal heart attack Thursday.

Joe Garcia was the husband of Irma Garcia, one of the two teachers murdered in Salvador Ramos' attack on Robb Elementary School Tuesday, according to FOX San Antonio reporter Ernie Zuniga. 

Joe and Irma leave behind four children.


----------



## Pepper (May 26, 2022)

Reports coming in of parents assaulted by police while trying to get into school as cops do nothing, pepper sprayed, shoving, etc.


----------



## Lewkat (May 26, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Today, Thursday .....  another death attributed to the school shootings ..
> 
> The husband of a teacher slain in Tuesday's shooting in Ulvade, Texas, suffered a fatal heart attack Thursday.
> 
> ...


I just read this on one of my news sites.  How sad.


----------



## JustBonee (May 26, 2022)

Yes,  and now 4 orphans


----------



## Sunny (May 26, 2022)

Tragic beyond imagination. It is like we are living in a nightmare.

What I would like to know is how this very disturbed kid, with a long anti-social history and coming from a family of felons, came into possession of this firearm. Who would sell him a gun, let alone an assault rifle?  Or did he steal it, or buy it from a "friend?"  I wonder about the police work in tracking this down.  Getting an answer might provide some hints as to how to deal with this problem in the future.

If somebody actually sold (or gave!) it to him, IMO they are just as guilty of murder as he was.


----------



## Pepper (May 26, 2022)

He bought them legally @Sunny 
My question is:  did he pay by credit card (whose); or cash (how did he get that?)


----------



## RadishRose (May 26, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Today, Thursday .....  another death attributed to the school shootings ..
> 
> The husband of a teacher slain in Tuesday's shooting in Ulvade, Texas, suffered a fatal heart attack Thursday.
> 
> ...


How tragic.


----------



## Bretrick (May 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> The politicians that cherish the receipt of NRA contributions over the lives of fellow Americans need to be removed.


Agreed. Any Politician taking contributions from the NRA need to be disendorsed. By decree if necessary


----------



## Pepper (May 26, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> Agreed. Any Politician taking contributions from the NRA need to be disendorsed. By decree if necessary


errr.........that's not how things are done here.  Not yet anyway.


----------



## RadishRose (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Reports coming in of parents assaulted by police while trying to get into school as cops do nothing, pepper sprayed, shoving, etc.


What the hell!

https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/nicole-russell/article261819415.html


----------



## Bretrick (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> errr.........that's not how things are done here.  Not yet anyway.


I understand that but this is an imperative that decisive action needs to be taken.
It seems that those politicians receiving money from the NRA are willing to let innocent people die.
Maybe the NRA needs to be disbanded.
I do not have the answers but something desperately needs to be done to stop the killing of American Citizens.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Stevens 12 or 20 gauge pump, 5 shell magazine. Not enough? Load it with buckshot. Still not enough? Maybe you would prefer a full on machine gun or maybe a grenade launcher?  I'm sure you would, but maybe it's just time to move to a safer neighborhood.


Since you seem to have some (limited) firearms knowledge, you should know that shotguns have very limited capacity.  That is why all police vehicles (including motorcycles) have AR15's.
My custom Remington 870, even with an extended magazine only holds 6.  Buckshot is more powerful, but it doesn't solve the problem of limited capacity.
I already live in a safe neighborhood - whatever that means.
As a law-abiding citizen, I deserve (and am entitled to) the same edge as a criminal.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Reports coming in of parents assaulted by police while trying to get into school as cops do nothing, pepper sprayed, shoving, etc.


God help anyone whose life depends on these "Heroes" who are paid to protect us.


----------



## JustBonee (May 26, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Tragic beyond imagination. It is like we are living in a nightmare.
> 
> What I would like to know is how this very disturbed kid, with a long anti-social history and coming from a family of felons, came into possession of this firearm. Who would sell him a gun, let alone an assault rifle?  Or did he steal it, or buy it from a "friend?"  I wonder about the police work in tracking this down.  Getting an answer might provide some hints as to how to deal with this problem in the future.
> 
> If somebody actually sold (or gave!) it to him, IMO they are just as guilty of murder as he was.





Pepper said:


> He bought them legally @Sunny
> My question is:  did he pay by credit card (whose); or cash (how did he get that?)



Things reported about this family  are troubling   .... the grandfather has a past as a felon,  the boy's mother, a drug addict ....


----------



## JustBonee (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> God help anyone whose life depends on these "Heroes" who are paid to protect us.





RadishRose said:


> What the hell!
> 
> https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/nicole-russell/article261819415.html



Not a pretty picture of the police response from all the reports coming out today.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 26, 2022)

NRA convention in Houston tomorrow. The only time guns won't be allowed is when Trump is speaking. Wow! The NRA is banning guns. This flies in the face of the safest places are those where guns are allowed. Such hypocrisy because with so many good guys with guns, any bad guy would be put down instantly.


----------



## MrWhit (May 26, 2022)

I'm a former teacher and school principal and teacher.  Some of you may remember when the the school shootings happened in 1992 in Jonesboro, ArkansasI had moved on by the time it happened.  I had been the principal of that school from 1978 through 1982. One of the teachers shot was my cousin. I had moved on a long time before it happened.  Maybe I'm just soft and old but I still think about it often.  Those two boys went home and took guns from their homes and were waiting outside for the bell to ring at the end of the day when their school mates would come racing out to board the busses for home.  Can you imagine?  I knew many of the teachers and staff that worked there.  One of the teachers died.  The principal was a friend I had recommended for the job and urged her to take.(she is ok and retired now.  I only talked to her a couple of times since then and neither of us said anything about it.  The children at the school when I was there had moved on to high school by the time it happened so I am grateful to know that I didn't know any of them.  The best I can remember those boys punishment was minimal because of their ages.  It was and is an elementary school.  I don't know why I felt the need to share this.  I think I just needed to talk.  Thanks for listening.

Bill


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 26, 2022)

Talk is cheap!

"Gov. Greg Abbott said Wednesday that the Uvalde school shooter had a "mental health challenge" and the state needed to "do a better job with mental health" — yet in April he slashed $211 million from the department that oversees mental health programs.

In addition, Texas ranked last out of all 50 states and the District of Columbia for overall access to mental health care, according to the 2021 State of Mental Health in America report.

“There is no evidence the shooter is mentally ill, just angry and hateful,” said Lori Post, director of the Buehler Center for Health Policy and Economics at the Northwestern University School of Medicine. “While it is understandable that most people cannot fathom slaughtering small children and want to attribute it to mental health, it is very rare for a mass shooter to have a diagnosed mental health condition.”

https://news.yahoo.com/abbott-calls-texas-school-shooting-232258543.html


----------



## hollydolly (May 26, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> What the hell!
> 
> https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/nicole-russell/article261819415.html


yes that's been reported in our papers too, and on youtube


----------



## JustBonee (May 26, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> NRA convention in Houston tomorrow. The only time guns won't be allowed is when Trump is speaking. Wow! The NRA is banning guns. This flies in the face of the safest places are those where guns are allowed. Such hypocrisy because with so many good guys with guns, any bad guy would be put down instantly.



 Crazy!    
There are plenty of people pulling out  of this,  but apparently not enough to close down the convention.   Sad


----------



## hollydolly (May 26, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Today, Thursday .....  another death attributed to the school shootings ..
> 
> The husband of a teacher slain in Tuesday's shooting in Ulvade, Texas, suffered a fatal heart attack Thursday.
> 
> ...


This is beyond tragic... this man who would have wanted to live for his own children was hit with such grief, that likely caused his heart attack... the poor man, the poor kids... but at least he's now with his wife again...bless them both... if it hadn't been for a piece of scum these  children wouldn't be orphans now.. ..


----------



## Jace (May 26, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Today, Thursday .....  another death attributed to the school shootings ..
> 
> The husband of a teacher slain in Tuesday's shooting in Ulvade, Texas, suffered a fatal heart attack Thursday.
> 
> ...


Sad, sad, sad!


----------



## MrWhit (May 26, 2022)

Blessed said:


> Again, I will say these people are ill. If you are diagnosed with a disease you should be given treatment not left alone.  I hate that these things keep happening, it is a horrible thing. Yes it would be better if they took their own lives and no else.  Yet this still happens because society if not paying attention and getting them treatment.


What do you think about all of these video game?  Are we as parents aware  of the violence that the children of today are engaged in.  From what little I know about it, those games don't teach the children to value life.


----------



## Pepper (May 26, 2022)

MrWhit said:


> What do you think about all of these video game?  Are we as parents aware  of the violence that the children of today are engaged in.  From what little I know about it, those games don't teach the children to value life.


We're their grandparents, not their parents.  It's up to Mom & Dad, although kids will play the games at their friends' if denied it at home.

I honestly don't think the games are a factor for the overwhelming majority of kids who play them.  In the 1950s there were Senate hearings on the juvenile delinquents who read comic books, and how bad comics were for society.


----------



## MrWhit (May 26, 2022)

I've got to get off of here for a while and try to think about something else.


----------



## MrWhit (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> We're their grandparents, not their parents.  It's up to Mom & Dad, although kids will play the games at their friends' if denied it at home.
> 
> I honestly don't think the games are a factor for the overwhelming majority of kids who play them.  In the 1950s there were Senate hearings on the juvenile delinquents who read comic books, and how bad comics were for society.





Pepper said:


> We're their grandparents, not their parents.  It's up to Mom & Dad, although kids will play the games at their friends' if denied it at home.
> 
> I honestly don't think the games are a factor for the overwhelming majority of kids who play them.  In the 1950s there were Senate hearings on the juvenile delinquents who read comic books, and how bad comics were for society.



You are probably right, still, we had better pay attention.  A week ago no one was worried about what this man would do.  Anyone's child might be shot, but the shooter will be someone's son.  The parents of the boys in Jonesboro left the guns unlocked.  But, it was likely the fathers that taught them to use them and never would have believed what might happen.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 26, 2022)

ETA


----------



## StarSong (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> We're their grandparents, not their parents.  It's up to Mom & Dad, although kids will play the games at their friends' if denied it at home.
> 
> I honestly don't think the games are a factor for the overwhelming majority of kids who play them.  In the 1950s there were Senate hearings on the juvenile delinquents who read comic books, and how bad comics were for society.


Back in the 1950s my brother and his male friends all went to bed at night with their cowboy belts still on their hips or hanging on the bedpost close at hand.  None of them grew up to be mass murderers.


----------



## morgan (May 26, 2022)

Something very wrong here. An 18 year old goes into a gun shop and buys two deadly weapons and in the space of a few days collects enough ammo to kill dozens. No questions asked. How come? Laws in the US need to be tightened, starting with the creeps who are allowed to sell these guns. Why does anyone need an assault weapon unless they are going into battle.


----------



## Tish (May 26, 2022)

rgp said:


> Tightened ? What exactly does that mean ? You do not live here, do you even know our gun laws ?


I am not disputing your right to bear arms, I am just saying that some of you do not have the mental capacity to own a weapon responsibly. 
That is very evident in all the mass shootings you have.
A Phycological evaluation before owning a weapon should be part of the application!


----------



## ElCastor (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> Since you seem to have some (limited) firearms knowledge, you should know that shotguns have very limited capacity.  That is why all police vehicles (including motorcycles) have AR15's.
> My custom Remington 870, even with an extended magazine only holds 6.  Buckshot is more powerful, but it doesn't solve the problem of limited capacity.
> I already live in a safe neighborhood - whatever that means.
> As a law-abiding citizen, I deserve (and am entitled to) the same edge as a criminal.


Hmmm. Looks like the police just added one more AR15 to their collection. "Police in the Dallas suburb of Richardson found a pistol and a replica AR-15 in a teen's car parked outside a high school Wednesday, the day after an 18-year-old gunned down 19 students and two teachers at a Uvalde, Texas, elementary school. The teen, who is not being identified, was arrested and charged with unlawful carrying of weapons in a weapon-free school zone, a felony, according to the Richardson Police Department."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/p...h-school-day-after-uvalde-shooting/ar-AAXLxya

I'll try to be polite. Were it up to me, every assault rifle and AR15 would be melted down for scrap, and after a well publicized period anyone found to be in possession of one would be given a free room in Sing Sing.


----------



## Warrigal (May 26, 2022)

Sunny said:


> From today's Washington Post:
> 
> Why Nothing Will Change After Uvalde
> By Brian Broome
> ...


Bravo. However words are not enough. The people need to stand together and demand action.


----------



## morgan (May 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> We're their grandparents, not their parents.  It's up to Mom & Dad, although kids will play the games at their friends' if denied it at home.
> 
> I honestly don't think the games are a factor for the overwhelming majority of kids who play them.  In the 1950s there were Senate hearings on the juvenile delinquents who read comic books, and how bad comics were for society.


It takes more than parents and grandparents to bring up a child. It takes a village, a town and a city. Violent video games play a huge part in shaping a child's thinking, it is up to everyone to do their bit.


----------



## Don M. (May 26, 2022)

More details are coming in about this tragedy, every passing hour.  I can't understand why it took so long for the police to take any meaningful action.  They were alerted when the grandmother was shot, people were shot at when the lunatic crashed his truck at the funeral home, and he wandered around, and into the school, shooting more rounds.  Then, when the police finally Did arrive, they spun their wheels for an excessive amount of time before they even began to take action.  What a fiasco!!


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 26, 2022)

First, it's easier for cops to shoot unarmed suspects. Happens all the time and the cops claim they feared for their lives. Now, I hearing that the Uvalde cops claimed they did not have the training for an active shooter. If that's true, how the heck do Texas legislators expect armed teachers to take out a shooter?


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 26, 2022)

"A law enforcement source told CBS News that the shooter entered the school with seven loaded magazines that is 210 rounds (30 rounds to each magazine). In addition in his backpack, he had more than 15 additional magazines which would translate to another 450 rounds.

To put it in perspective: according to the source, the amount of ammunition that Ramos brought with him is double what an average US Soldier would go into basic combat with. A US soldier generally has seven magazines, one mag in the weapon and six spare magazines giving the soldier a total of 210 rounds."

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/l...lice/273-cbf0d9be-d042-4557-a360-e2a3ad944a10


----------



## dseag2 (May 26, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> "A law enforcement source told CBS News that the shooter entered the school with seven loaded magazines that is 210 rounds (30 rounds to each magazine). In addition in his backpack, he had more than 15 additional magazines which would translate to another 450 rounds.
> 
> To put it in perspective: according to the source, the amount of ammunition that Ramos brought with him is double what an average US Soldier would go into basic combat with. A US soldier generally has seven magazines, one mag in the weapon and six spare magazines giving the soldier a total of 210 rounds."
> 
> https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/l...lice/273-cbf0d9be-d042-4557-a360-e2a3ad944a10


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> Not a pretty picture of the police response from all the reports coming out today.


Exactly why so many people are gun owners.


----------



## win231 (May 26, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Hmmm. Looks like the police just added one more AR15 to their collection. "Police in the Dallas suburb of Richardson found a pistol and a replica AR-15 in a teen's car parked outside a high school Wednesday, the day after an 18-year-old gunned down 19 students and two teachers at a Uvalde, Texas, elementary school. The teen, who is not being identified, was arrested and charged with unlawful carrying of weapons in a weapon-free school zone, a felony, according to the Richardson Police Department."
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/p...h-school-day-after-uvalde-shooting/ar-AAXLxya
> 
> I'll try to be polite. Were it up to me, every assault rifle and AR15 would be melted down for scrap, and after a well publicized period anyone found to be in possession of one would be given a free room in Sing Sing.


^^^^ When you have no valid response, digress.


----------



## todalake (May 26, 2022)

In Texas have  to be 21 to buy a beer but only 18 to buy an AR-15 assult rifle.  Something wrong with that picture.


----------



## SeniorBen (May 26, 2022)

todalake said:


> In Texas have  to be 21 to buy a beer but only 18 to buy an AR-15 assult rifle.  Something wrong with that picture.


I believe AR-15 ownership falls under hunting rifle laws. Because of that, people can't buy a pistol until they're 21, but they can buy an AR-15 at 18.

I'm not saying, that's right or sane or the way it should be. Apparently, that's the way the majority of people in Texas want their laws structured.


----------



## ElCastor (May 26, 2022)

win231 said:


> ^^^^ When you have no valid response, digress.


I apologize if I appeared to evade your point, which I believe was that the AR-15, and other assault rifles are considerably more effective in home defense than a shotgun. Very true, and very effective, but then so would a Browning M1919 machine gun or a fully automatic assault rifle. What do you think -- should full automatics be legal? I don't, but do you? Why?


----------



## win231 (May 27, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I apologize if I appeared to evade your point, which I believe was that the AR-15, and other assault rifles are considerably more effective in home defense than a shotgun. Very true, and very effective, but then so would a Browning M1919 machine gun or a fully automatic assault rifle. What do you think -- should full automatics be legal? I don't, but do you? Why?


If you're not kidding.....No.  A Browning M1919 fires cartridges that have way too much power for a house gun due to excessive penetration.  And at 30 lbs, how would you carry it around?
Re:  Fully Automatic Rifles, they wouldn't be a good choice, either.  They use up ammo very quickly & they are designed for the battlefield - to spray a general area where the enemy might be to force him out of cover.
As for legality of full auto firearms, in many states, people can own one after a background check & special licensing & tax stamp - very expensive:


----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

_Uvalde police are facing new criticism over first-hand accounts and videos showing them handcuffing and restraining frantic parents, who were urging them to storm the Robb Elementary school building amid the massacre.

'The police were doing nothing,' Angeli Rose Gomez told the  Wall Street Journal. 'They were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere.'

Gomez has two children in second and third grade and she reportedly drove 40 miles to the school after hearing of the attack.

She was one of the desperate parents who encouraged police with increasing urgency to enter the school. 

Eventually, federal marshals put Gomez in handcuffs and told her she was under arrest for intervening in an active investigation, the Wall Street Journal reported.





Angeli Gomez (above)  jumped the school fence and ran inside the school where she rescued her children herself_
Gomez said she was able to convince a Uvalde officer whom she knew to have the marshal free her and she took the opportunity to move away from the crowd, jump the school fence, and ran inside the school where she rescued her children herself.

She said that other parents also trying to get to their kids were tackled and even pepper-sprayed by police. 

*Angel Garza, whose daughter was killed, was handcuffed after trying to run into the school when he heard that a 'girl called Amerie' had been shot. 

Garza later told his heartbreaking story to Anderson Cooper. 

He explained that when he arrived on the scene he tried to help a young girl covered in blood, because he is a trained medic. 

The girl explained she wasn't hurt and the blood was from her best friend 'Amerie.' It was then that Angel realized the blood he was looking at came from his own daughter.

He later found out that she was among those who died.*

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...g-cops-storm-school-rescued-kids-herself.html


----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)




----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> I was listening to the Republicans talk about gun laws and what would happen if they decided to consider stricter gun laws.
> They all said the same thing.
> "If I done that, I would lose my seat"
> So it seems that they would rather keep their seat instead of considering stricter gun laws.
> ...


Unfortunately it's the same the world over when it comes to issues affecting the masses.. one individual gets to decide what's good for everyone ...all wrong...


----------



## Pepper (May 27, 2022)

_Violence is as American as cherry pie_--H.Rap Brown, 1967 and still as true today as when he said it.


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## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

Now has to be the time for a total gun review... this can't


Pepper said:


> _Violence is as American as cherry pie_--H.Rap Brown, 1967 and still as true today as when he said it.


this is actually a shock, if Violence was so prevalent way back over 50 years ago... why hasn't it been addressed... rhetorical question obvs..


----------



## OneEyedDiva (May 27, 2022)

Okay, so this morning while watching the World News Tonight report which showed pictures and told a little about each child, I couldn't hold back the tears. To think that their chlldren were being honored one hour and gone the next...it's just unfathomable. It's further angering to find out how long the police response (not presence) really was. Those little angels were so cute, smart and by all accounts great children. I am keeping the families in prayer.

Then to find out husband of one of the teachers died of a heart attack. His family said he (literally) died of a broken heart. He and his wife were to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary this weekend.  That family must be totally devastated.

@Pepper H. Rap Brown spoke the truth. It's a truth no one wants to hear, especially from a Black man they labeled a militant !


----------



## Pepper (May 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> Now has to be the time for a total gun review... this can't
> 
> this is actually a shock, if Violence was so prevalent way back over 50 years ago... why hasn't it been addressed... rhetorical question obvs..


The question won't be addressed and I cannot tell you why, due to the restrictions of this forum.  I will say it will continue to worsen as it is becoming a crime in some states to even talk about it.  Newspeak here we come, lest we offend the sensitive feelings of those who refuse to see.


----------



## rgp (May 27, 2022)

Tish said:


> I am not disputing your right to bear arms, I am just saying that some of you do not have the mental capacity to own a weapon responsibly.
> That is very evident in all the mass shootings you have.
> A Phycological evaluation before owning a weapon should be part of the application!



 OK, actually I agree with you , have some reservations about the phyco test ... [much of that is opinion] IMO, but performed correctly ? Again I would agree.

 Thanks for the reply.


----------



## oldman (May 27, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Felons are already monitored, and to my knowledge are barred from owning firearms.
> 
> Most all of these school shootings are done by children, no hard core felons storming in and murdering 4th graders.    Young boys / men are poorly socialized, in my opinion.  They need to know how to feel masculine without having the power of killing people at their finger tips.
> 
> Anyone familiar with the video games that [mostly boys, some girls] are playing?   Well, they all involve blasting other players with all kinds of weapons.  What do you think?   https://www.ign.com/articles/the-best-100-video-games-of-all-time


I have to agree that I am not hip to today’s video games, other than what I read about. I have been told that many of these games do have violence in them. I have a good friend in law enforcement and he once told me that some kids have a problem differentiating between reality and make believe. I can believe that because I’m not so old that I don’t remember back when I was a young boy and would fantasize about being a cowboy, cop or a fireman.


----------



## StarSong (May 27, 2022)

morgan said:


> Why does anyone need an assault weapon unless they are going into battle.


Your question contains the answer.  People who buy assault weapons believe they are going into battle.  In too many cases, as in this terrible massacre of teachers and little children, the battle was intended to be a slaughter of innocents.


----------



## StarSong (May 27, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I'll try to be polite. Were it up to me, every assault rifle and AR15 would be melted down for scrap, and after a well publicized period anyone found to be in possession of one would be given a free room in Sing Sing.


I fully agree.


----------



## JustBonee (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> Exactly why so many people are gun owners.



Since the NRA Convention starts here today,  I'm sure the world will be watching.  ... Should  be a spectacle!

I'm glad that I live about 35 miles from downtown Houston,  and that all of my family is out of town for the long weekend.   
Wouldn't want to be anywhere near that mess that is about to take place..


----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Okay, so this morning while watching the World News Tonight report which showed pictures and told a little about each child, I couldn't hold back the tears. To think that their chlldren were being honored one hour and gone the next...it's just unfathomable. It's further angering to find out how long the police response (not presence) really was. Those little angels were so cute, smart and by all accounts great children. I am keeping the families in prayer.
> 
> Then to find out husband of one of the teachers died of a heart attack. His family said he (literally) died of a broken heart. He and his wife were to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary this weekend.  That family must be totally devastated.
> 
> @Pepper H. Rap Brown spoke the truth. It's a truth no one wants to hear, especially from a Black man they labeled a militant !


yes, I agree... there's no way that poor man didn't die of a heart attack... just hours before while laying  flowers for his wife at the scene he looked like a big strapping fit guy.. albeit shattered by what had just happened. I posted a Video, you can see for yourself... and the pain he was going through was obviously just too much for that big heart and he joined his wife just hours after she passed... 

Scroll here for the video showing Mr Joe Garcia... laying flowers hours before he died...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-laying-flowers-memorial-just-hours-died.html


----------



## morgan (May 27, 2022)

The politicians are inept, these are the people who will stop the slaughter. It is up to all Americans to support them.


----------



## JustBonee (May 27, 2022)

morgan said:


> The politicians are inept, these are the people who will stop the slaughter. It is up to all Americans to support them.



After all,  they are the future  - so maybe there is hope.


----------



## StarSong (May 27, 2022)

Bonnie said:


> After all,  they are the future  - so maybe there is hope.


Agreed.  As a population we have to lose the defeatist attitude that keeps us believing politicians are all powerful and the people they represent are helpless.  

2022 could be the summer of strong gun control laws being enacted across the land. We have the power to make it so.


----------



## JustBonee (May 27, 2022)

Hope they don't let up!


_Students and youth organizers with the March for Our Lives gun control movement are planning nationwide protests following the Texas elementary school shooting, including a march on Washington, D.C., on June 11. 

Organizers and activists also plan to meet with lawmakers in the Capitol from June 7 to June 10 to push for universal background checks, according to the group’s website.

“Our message and ask is simple: no longer will we be held hostage by our lawmakers and no longer will we tolerate feeling unsafe in our communities,” the group wrote on the website. 

“Regardless of what party you stand for, if you do not support lifesaving measures like universal background checks, we will pledge to vote against you this fall and in future elections. “

March for Our Lives has several other protests planned around the country from San Francisco, Calif., to Greenville, S.C. There will also be a protest in front of the convention center where the National Rifle Association (NRA) is hosting a conference in Houston, Texas later this week, about 300 miles from the scene of the deadly shooting in Uvalde_, Texas.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ng-nationwide-protests-march-on-dc/ar-AAXJMO3


----------



## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

From all I've heard and read, those Texas cops who refused to go in and stop the shooter before the lives of 19 innocent children and those two teachers were taken in cold blood have that blood on their hands.  They had the armor and the weapons and they waited while the children died.  Investigations should be done regarding their response and the contradictory BS reports about this massacre and these cowards should be held accountable. Those cops are incompetent and cowardly, but were okay roughing up panicked mothers outside, _that _task they could handle. 

May the  children and teachers who lost their lives rest peacefully.  Condolences to their families.  I can't even begin to imagine how the mothers of these young children feel after having their babies gunned down and killed in the classroom.  Heartbreaking and disgusting.


----------



## StarSong (May 27, 2022)

A chilling, heartbreaking first person account of an 11 year old in the classroom where the shooter killed her teachers and nearly all her classmates.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/27/us/robb-shooting-survivor-miah-cerrillo/index.html


----------



## StarSong (May 27, 2022)

Perhaps it's time for grisly crime-scene photos (with faces blurred out).  We sanitize the news so that people's sensibilities aren't offended.  *It's time Americans became deeply offended by the ongoing mass shootings in our country, including those where teachers and little children are slaughtered.   *

Let those who vote for no holds barred, pro-gun legislators, understand the true consequences of their actions.


----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

StarSong said:


> The way out of this is for the general population to rise up and DEMAND that it stops.


----------



## ElCastor (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> If you're not kidding.....No.  A Browning M1919 fires cartridges that have way too much power for a house gun due to excessive penetration.  And at 30 lbs, how would you carry it around?
> Re:  Fully Automatic Rifles, they wouldn't be a good choice, either.  They use up ammo very quickly & they are designed for the battlefield - to spray a general area where the enemy might be to force him out of cover.
> As for legality of full auto firearms, in many states, people can own one after a background check & special licensing & tax stamp - very expensive:


Just to be clear, my objection to full and semi-automatics is not because they are expensive or expend too much ammo, it's for the simple reason that in the hands of a nut job they can be used to quickly kill dozens of people, and in a US of more than 300 million there is no shortage of nut jobs and mass murders, so limit the automatics and semi automatics to the police and military -- period!


----------



## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> From all I've heard and read, those Texas cops who refused to go in and stop the shooter before the lives of 19 innocent children and those two teachers were taken in cold blood have that blood on their hands.  They had the armor and the weapons and they waited while the children died.  Investigations should be done regarding their response and the contradictory BS reports about this massacre and these cowards should be held accountable. Those cops are incompetent and cowardly, but were okay roughing up panicked mothers outside, _that _task they could handle.
> 
> May the  children and teachers who lost their lives rest peacefully.  Condolences to their families.  I can't even begin to imagine how the mothers of these young children feel after having their babies gunned down and killed in the classroom.  Heartbreaking and disgusting.


I absolutely agree.. but I cannot get that  father out of my mind , who when he tried to run in to save his daughter, was handcuffed by the police.... and his 10 year old daughter died.. I'm outraged for him.. the police who did this should have to face serious consequences for his actions... this man has to live all his life knowing he was there , and could have saved his child.. and a faceless lawman physically stopped him by placing him under arrest.. I hope he sues...


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Just to be clear, my objection to full and semi-automatics is not because they are expensive or expend too much ammo, it's for the simple reason that in the hands of a nut job they can be used to quickly kill dozens of people, and in a US of more than 300 million there is no shortage of nut jobs and mass murders, so limit the automatics and semi automatics to the police and military -- period!


You have unintentionally provided the reason & the justification for owning a large-capacity semi automatic firearm when you said:
_"There is no shortage of nut jobs." _
The fact that they are effective at killing is precisely why homeowners have them - as in the examples of home invasions with multiple assailants I posted previously.  That's also why police officers have them.  
And when police (who are paid to protect us) are apathetic & incompetent, they provide more reasons for people to arm themselves.


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> I absolutely agree.. but I cannot get that  father out of my mind , who when he tried to run in to save his daughter, was handcuffed by the police.... and his 10 year old daughter died.. I'm outraged for him.. the police who did this should have to face serious consequences for his actions... this man has to live all his life knowing he was there , and could have saved his child.. and a faceless lawman physically stopped him by placing him under arrest.. I hope he sues...


He can try to sue, but no judge will allow it.


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## hollydolly (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> He can try to sue, but no judge will allow it.


I realise that... but in this instance the officer who did this needs and should have to face serious consequences


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 27, 2022)

Among the more stark revelations at the news conference:


A school resource officer was not already stationed at the school. When he arrived at the scene, he inadvertently passed the shooter, who was crouched down next to a car.
The back door of the school was propped open by a teacher. This is how the gunman made entry. 
One desperate 911 call came from a little girl in a classroom the gunman stormed. “Please send the police now,” she said.
At least two children called 911 pleading for help. They survived the shooting, McCraw said.
McCraw said the on-scene commander believed “this was a barricaded subject situation” and did not think there were “more children at risk.”
Fifty-eight magazines were recovered. Three were on the shooter’s body, two were found in classroom 112 and six in classroom 111. Five others were found on the ground, and one was in the rifle the gunman wielded. 
The shooter asked his sister to buy him a gun in September 2021 and she refused.


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## Timewise 60+ (May 27, 2022)

I have a theory that many of the kids that do this are actually committing 'suicide by cop'!  Killing themselves is their primary motive, but they do not just want to die, they want to make a statement, go out in a blaze with news coverage and on TV.   They are mentally ill, obviously!  The media and police will spend weeks and months trying to figure out the motive, but there seldom is one, other than they were suicidal. 

In my day we also had kids, primarily in high school that committed suicide, but they did it quietly, by themselves.  What's changed...

The massive media coverage of these events, video games of violence desensitizing young kids to blood and gore, movies doing the same thing!  Again, we had war movies, monster movies, and westerns.   People got shot and killed, but no blood or maybe just a little but it was in black and white.   If it got violent, many people got up and left theaters, we just were not able to tolerate this kind of violence.   It was not unusual for people to actually get sick at the site of blood in movies, even in black and white. 

Add to this drugs and alcohol use by teens and you have a recipe for violence...


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I fully agree.



 Since thousands die every year in automobile crashes , using your logic & that of el castor ...... every automobile should be melted down for scrap, and anyone owning one afterwards should meet the same fate.


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## Pepper (May 27, 2022)

That's not using their logic @rgp (and I am glad to see you) that's twisting and stretching their logic into something unrecognizable to the issue at hand.


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## ohioboy (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> He can try to sue, but no judge will allow it.


It is not a matter of a "Right of Action", but is there a valid "Cause of Action" to survive a Dismissal, which of course is appealable if so done.


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## Chet (May 27, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


>


The one on the right wants to kill the one on the left. The one on the left wants to defend herself.


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## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> I absolutely agree.. but I cannot get that  father out of my mind , who when he tried to run in to save his daughter, was handcuffed by the police.... and his 10 year old daughter died.. I'm outraged for him.. the police who did this should have to face serious consequences for his actions... this man has to live all his life knowing he was there , and could have saved his child.. and a faceless lawman physically stopped him by placing him under arrest.. I hope he sues...


I agree Holly.  I think under normal circumstances, the cops would stop family members from going into a situation where they may also be killed.  But this isn't normal, because the cops were refusing to do what they are paid to do, and the parents were desperate.  I hope they pay for their actions.....or non-actions.  If my kid was in there and the cops were too afraid to go in and kill the gunman to save innocent lives, I would also want to take matters into my own hands to save my child.


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> sounds like _something _extreme has to happen.., however the Buffalo killer chose a supermarket not a school.. so you can't build a wall around every public area unfortunately... might be just a better idea to Ban guns... ...but I'm not going there because it's a contentious subject


I'm all for banning guns - provided there is a guarantee that NO evil people will ever have access to ANY type of weapon.
Of course, that's not reality.  And I have to live in reality.


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree Holly.  I think under normal circumstances, the cops would stop family members from going into a situation where they may also be killed.  But this isn't normal, because the cops were refusing to do what they are paid to do, and the parents were desperate.  I hope they pay for their actions.....or non-actions.  If my kid was in there and the cops were too afraid to go in and kill the gunman to save innocent lives, I would also want to take matters into my own hands to save my child.




Perhaps because in that case_* you*_ would have a personal connection to _*your*_ child, a connection of love, and your heart is sinking ? It is totally possible that the officers in mind had no connection of any kind . Their heart wasn't in it ? And ..... at what ? 40-50 thousand dollars p/year ...  just how fast would you be to run toward an automatic/semi-automatic weapon being fired ? You do not know for sure where the shooter is .... or if [at that time] anyone has been hit. Add to that the possibility that the officers in question had only a side arm, perhaps no S.W.A.T type training , and maybe not even a ballistic vest .

Alot of assumptions being made in this thread, and IMO alot of false bravado being proclaimed.


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## Jules (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> as in the examples of home invasions with multiple assailants I posted previously. That's also why police officers have them.


I didn’t watch the videos.  What did those homeowners have that the bad guys wanted so much?  Was it the guns?


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## Been There (May 27, 2022)

We are learning more and more about how much time was lost with the cops waiting for what, I don’t know. I would have thought if there was a known active shooter, time was of the essence. If the cops had military style equipment, why wasn’t entrance made and the target destroyed?


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## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

rgp said:


> Perhaps because in that case_* you*_ would have a personal connection to _*your*_ child, a connection of love, and your heart is sinking ? It is totally possible that the officers in mind had no connection of any kind . Their heart wasn't in it ? And ..... at what ? 40-50 thousand dollars p/year ...  just how fast would you be to run toward an automatic/semi-automatic weapon being fired ? You do not know for sure where the shooter is .... or if [at that time] anyone has been hit. Add to that the possibility that the officers in question had only a side arm, perhaps no S.W.A.T type training , and maybe not even a ballistic vest .
> 
> Alot of assumptions being made in this thread, and IMO alot of false bravado being proclaimed.


From what I understand they had protective armor and similar suitable rifles.  I don't care what they are paid, if they are supposed to stop a school massacre, and they have the means to do it, they should do their job.....or get the hell out.  What good are they if they stand around afraid to take action?  We only know the information that is told us, except for the BS that gets contradicted at every press meeting.  They don't need a personal connection to the children who are now dead, they needed to do whatever was possible to kill the gunman and save innocent lives.  These school security officers and cowardly cops are useless, if they weren't more children would be alive today.


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## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

Been There said:


> We are learning more and more about how much time was lost with the cops waiting for what, I don’t know. I would have thought if there was a known active shooter, time was of the essence. *If the cops had military style equipment, why wasn’t entrance made and the target destroyed?*


Valid question, waiting for answers.


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## Pepper (May 27, 2022)




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## Della (May 27, 2022)

rgp said:


> Perhaps because in that case_* you*_ would have a personal connection to _*your*_ child, a connection of love, and your heart is sinking ? It is totally possible that the officers in mind had no connection of any kind . Their heart wasn't in it ? *And ..... at what ? 40-50 thousand dollars p/year ...  just how fast would you be to run toward an automatic/semi-automatic weapon being fired ? *You do not know for sure where the shooter is .... or if [at that time] anyone has been hit. Add to that the possibility that the officers in question had only a side arm, perhaps no S.W.A.T type training , and maybe not even a ballistic vest .
> 
> Alot of assumptions being made in this thread, and IMO alot of false bravado being proclaimed.


If one of those cops failed to go in and try to save little children who were being gunned down because _he didn't think he was being paid enough  _then he is  truly a horrible person.  

Just how much do you think the lives of 19 children is worth?  What price would you demand before you tried to save them?  None of them were mine, but if I was there I'm pretty sure I would try to slip inside the school and try to find where the shooter was and try to save them save them and I wouldn't give a moments thought to whether or not I was being paid anything at all.

They had vests, you can see that in the picture and plenty of guns.


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> From what I understand they had protective armor and similar suitable rifles.  I don't care what they are paid, if they are supposed to stop a school massacre, and they have the means to do it, they should do their job.....or get the hell out.  What good are they if they stand around afraid to take action?  We only know the information that is told us, except for the BS that gets contradicted at every press meeting.  They don't need a personal connection to the children who are now dead, they needed to do whatever was possible to kill the gunman and save innocent lives.  These school security officers and cowardly cops are useless, if they weren't more children would be alive today.


  You say, 

  "From what I understand they had protective armor and similar suitable rifles. "

 Then you say ... 

"We only know the information that is told us, except for the BS that gets contradicted at every press meeting.  

 My point exactly, we do not know all the details yet ..... and IMO we should not be so quick to judge.

 "They don't need a personal connection."

 True, they do not .... but again [opinion] it does make a difference in ones determination/decision.


  A senario .... if a cop would have stormed the building & shot the kid ... in the first few minutes. I gaurantee there would be those that would have said .... he was too quick to kill, and should have tried to negotiate . 

With the mood of the nation today ...... an officer can't do anything right.


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## Della (May 27, 2022)

-


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

Della said:


> If one of those cops failed to go in and try to save little children who were being gunned down because _he didn't think he was being paid enough  _then he is  truly a horrible person.
> 
> Just how much do you think the lives of 19 children is worth?  What price would you demand before you tried to save them?  None of them were mine, but if I was there I'm pretty sure I would try to slip inside the school and try to find where the shooter was and try to save them save them and I wouldn't give a moments thought to whether or not I was being paid anything at all.
> 
> They had vests, you can see that in the picture and plenty of guns.




   Yeah OK .... very easy to arm-chair quarterback it.


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## ElCastor (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> You have unintentionally provided the reason & the justification for owning a large-capacity semi automatic firearm when you said:
> _"There is no shortage of nut jobs." _
> The fact that they are effective at killing is precisely why homeowners have them - as in the examples of home invasions with multiple assailants I posted previously.  That's also why police officers have them.
> And when police (who are paid to protect us) are apathetic & incompetent, they provide more reasons for people to arm themselves.


Sigh. For those that feel the need to arm themselves and their home I would suggest they consider a Stevens 20 gauge short barrel pump action shotgun. Granted this may prove inadequate to stop a hoard of rampaging zombies, but it should scare the Hell out of the average home burglar, and a missed shot will not penetrate a couple of walls and kill a neighbor.

BTW - The shotgun will likely comply with state Laws, now or in the future. I gather from your “Ca” location that you might be a California citizen. Are you sure your arsenal is currently in compliance?


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## Warrigal (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> I'm all for banning guns - provided there is a guarantee that NO evil people will ever have access to ANY type of weapon.
> Of course, that's not reality.  And I have to live in reality.


I live in a different reality where school massacres do not happen. People are free to own guns in Australia but there are limits to that freedom. Sensible gun legislation makes everyone safer.

Apparently Canadians also experience a different reality. Responding to the idea that schools should be like impregnable fortresses this post on Twitter says it all



> I’m a retired teacher in Canada. There were 4 doors into my school that were kept locked. Wanna know why? Because if parents were divorced and one didn’t have access they had to ring the office. Not once was it because we thought our students would be massacred. Jesus, do better!


That is how it was when I was teaching except that most of the doors were unlocked in case the school had to be evacuated in case of fire. Today schools have just the main entrance locked and people have to press a buzzer to come in.


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## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

rgp said:


> You say,
> 
> "From what I understand they had protective armor and similar suitable rifles. "
> 
> ...


Your post is senseless.  I know what I said and it was in response to all you were saying....imagine that!   Yes, there are many examples these days of cops not doing anything right.  In each and every case, one or more Americans are dead because of it.  Yeah, kinda puts people in a bad mood. Time for police reform, clean out the ones just collecting a paycheck and not doing anything constructive for the public good.  Don't insult the uniform and the badge by carrying the firearm and not having the backbone to defend the innocent and do the job you're getting paid for.

As I've said repeatedly in the past, I do appreciate the officers who take their jobs seriously and do their best to protect and defend our citizens.  Cowardly cops like those who stood by while children were being viciously murdered put a grey cloud over the entire police force.  Protect our children, get those cowardly dead-beats out of the force, they have no business being there.


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## morgan (May 27, 2022)

The police finally admitted they messed up. I am bewildered as to how 19 officers  wearing protective armour and carrying rifles can stand in a hallway waiting for keys to open doors while children die.


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## Lewkat (May 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> Now has to be the time for a total gun review... this can't
> 
> this is actually a shock, if Violence was so prevalent way back over 50 years ago... why hasn't it been addressed... rhetorical question obvs..


As the media grows and expands, it appears that violence has been super present.  I would guess that it has, but we simply never heard about it.  

It has been discussed and chewed over time and time again, yet when a bill is offered in our Congress to do something constructive about combating violence, one party or the other will find something in that bill it doesn't like and it is defeated.  That happened yesterday in our Senate with one Senator blocking it.  So it goes.

If we were involved in a major war, these incidents would be found in the back pages of our newspapers.  War is the greater violence and the media grabs more attention reporting it.

Also, there are more people in the USA than in each of the many countries we all represent on this forum and we are also a polyglot of many different ethnicities, etc, thus with the mixture, there is bound to be trouble.  DNA gets involved into this mixture and we've no idea how many are born wired wrong.

We seem to feed on and live vicariously through these tragic events.  The more wrong turns in addressing the unfolding situation appears to satisfy some salacious desires we so deliciously get a charge from.

Be aware, we are not present during or after the acts and what is or has taken place at the time.  Chaos reigns supreme to say the least and so many react in a different manner.  In no way do we excuse bad behavior from those in charge, but await the investigations are completed before jumping to conclusions and making statement condemning any action taken.  Cooler heads make for saner comments than some I have been reading throughout this thread.

Let us send our heartfelt condolences to the parents and families of the victims and hope our leaders can come together to really make and honest effort to put an end to all this heartbreak.  We are a better world than this and all  the killing should be stopped in its tracks.  Of course I realize some of it won't but for every life saved, we become its hero.


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> Your post is senseless.  I know what I said and it was in response to all you were saying....imagine that!   Yes, there are many examples these days of cops not doing anything right.  In each and every case, one or more Americans are dead because of it.  Yeah, kinda puts people in a bad mood. Time for police reform, clean out the ones just collecting a paycheck and not doing anything constructive for the public good.  Don't insult the uniform and the badge by carrying the firearm and not having the backbone to defend the innocent and do the job you're getting paid for.
> 
> As I've said repeatedly in the past, I do appreciate the officers who take their jobs seriously and do their best to protect and defend our citizens.  Cowardly cops like those who stood by while children were being viciously murdered put a grey cloud over the entire police force.  Protect our children, get those cowardly dead-beats out of the force, they have no business being there.


Despite the _*"Protect And Serve"*_ decal on many police vehicles _(which is there to provide an *illusion *of protection),_
The unfortunate reality is police officers have* NO* requirement to protect anyone at any time.  They can....IF they CHOOSE to.  I was surprised to learn that fact when police left the scene where the Rodney King riots started - which enabled a mob to beat Reginald Denny almost to death.
Several people sued the city & were unsuccessful.
https://prospect.org/justice/police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-public/

https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

Underlying all “gun control” ideology is this one belief.” “Private citizens don’t need firearms because the police will protect them from crime.” That belief is both false and dangerous for two reasons.
First, the police cannot and do not protect everyone from crime. Second, the government and the police in most localities _owe no legal duty to protect individuals from criminal attack._ When it comes to deterring crime and defending against criminals, individuals are ultimately responsible for themselves and their loved ones. Depending solely on police emergency response means relying on the telephone as the only defensive tool. Too often, citizens in trouble dial 911 . . . and die.
Statistics confirm the obvious truth that the police in America cannot prevent violent crime. In 1997 for example, nationwide there were 18,209 murders, 497,950 robberies, and 96,122 rapes.1 All those crimes were unprevented and undeterred by the police and the criminal justice system.
Many criminals use firearms to commit their crimes. For example, in 1997 criminals did so in 68 percent of murders and 40 percent of robberies.2 Thus criminals either have or can obtain firearms. The existing “gun control” laws do not stop serious criminals from getting guns and using them in crimes.
Practically speaking, it makes little sense to disarm the innocent victims while the criminals are armed. It is especially silly to disarm the victims when too often the police are simply unable to protect them. As Richard Mack, former sheriff of Graham County, Arizona, has observed: “Police do very little to prevent violent crime. We investigate crime after the fact.”
Americans increasingly believe, however, that all they need for protection is a telephone. Dial 911 and the police, fire, and ambulance will come straight to the rescue. It’s faster than the pizza man. Faith in a telephone number and the local cops is so strong that Americans dial 911 over 250,000 times per day.
Yet does dialing 911 actually protect crime victims? Researchers found that less than 5 percent of all calls dispatched to police are made quickly enough for officers to stop a crime or arrest a suspect.3 The 911 bottom line: “cases in which 911 technology makes a substantial difference in the outcome of criminal events are extraordinarily rare.”4
*No Duty to Protect*​It’s not just that the police cannot protect you. _They don’t even have to come when you call._ In most states the government and police owe no legal duty to protect individual citizens from criminal attack. The District of Columbia’s highest court spelled out plainly the “fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.”5
In the especially gruesome landmark case the “no-duty” rule got ugly. Just before dawn on March 16, 1975, two men broke down the back door of a three-story home in Washington, D.C., shared by three women and a child. On the second floor one woman was sexually attacked. Her housemates on the third floor heard her screams and called the police.
The women’s first call to D.C. police got assigned a low priority, so the responding officers arrived at the house, got no answer to their knocks on the door, did a quick check around, and left. When the women frantically called the police a second time, the dispatcher promised help would come—but no officers were even dispatched.
The attackers kidnapped, robbed, raped, and beat all three women over 14 hours. When these women later sued the city and its police for negligently failing to protect them or even to answer their second call, the court held that government had no duty to respond to their call or to protect them. Case dismissed.
The law is similar in most states. A Kansas statute precludes citizens from suing the government or the police for negligently failing to enforce the law or for failing to provide police or fire protection. A California law states that “neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise provide police protection service.”6 As one California appellate court wrote, “police officers have no affirmative statutory duty to do anything.”7
The state legislatures and courts protect government entities and police departments from civil liability for failing to provide adequate police protection. Some states invoke the “sovereign immunity” defense, a throwback to the days when the subjects were forbidden to sue the king. Other states have statutes that prevent legal challenges to police “discretionary” functions. Courts preclude lawsuits in those states by holding that answering emergency calls or providing police protection are “discretionary” functions.
Many states evade liability by relying on the ironically named “public duty” doctrine. Like a George Orwell slogan, that doctrine says: police owe a duty to protect the _public_ in general, but _not_ to protect any particular _individual._
Police Advice: “Get a Gun”​A Massachusetts statute spells out the rule there: the government has no legal duty “to provide adequate police protection, prevent the commission of crimes, investigate, detect or solve crimes, identify or apprehend criminals or suspects, arrest or detain suspects, or enforce any law.”8 That “no-duty” rule brings tragedy, as one Massachusetts woman learned in the worst way.
James Davidson had been abusing and harassing his wife, Catherine Ford, after their separation.9 Catherine got a court order against James to stop his misconduct. The Grafton police knew about James, and told her that they couldn’t provide protection around the clock. One officer frankly advised her to “buy a gun because the only way to deal with violence is violence.”
Catherine did not take that advice. Over the next 15 months James continued to harass and stalk Catherine, and he repeatedly threatened to kill her and her family. James terrorized Catherine and her family at their homes. He attacked her at her workplace. James’s own psychiatrist warned Catherine that James had plans to kill her. Despite all of his vicious and unlawful behavior, the police never arrested James for violating the court order.
James issued his final death threat on January 16, 1986. Catherine reported this threat to the police. At about 6 o’clock the next evening, James started kicking down Catherine’s back door. When she ran out the front door, James spotted her and chased her even as she charged through moving traffic on the street. She pounded on a neighbor’s door, but no one would let her inside. As she ran to the next house, James caught her and shot her three times in the face and neck. He then shot himself. Miraculously Catherine survived, but was totally paralyzed for life.


Catherine sued the town of Grafton for failing to protect her. Her lawyers argued that the police owed a legal duty to stop James, and thus the police owed a legal duty to protect Catherine. A Massachusetts statute required the police to arrest James for his repeated violations of the court order, but the police had failed to arrest him.
The Massachusetts court in _Ford v. Town of Grafion_ held the city was not liable. The court order that was supposed to restrain James and protect Catherine did not amount to an “assurance of safety or assistance” from the police department. According to the court, when the police advised Catherine “to get a gun for protection,” that was a warning to her that the police were unable to assure her safety or protect her. Because she got no assurances of safety from the police, she had no legal right to rely on the police to protect her. Case dismissed.
Catherine Ford might have escaped James’s murderous intentions unharmed if she had taken the police officer’s advice to “get a gun” and had received a basic course in defensive firearms handling and safety. Studies show that Americans use firearms successfully up to two million times each year to stop criminals.10 Tragically, she chose instead to rely on a court order and the police.
These two cases are not legal oddities. The general rule of law in the United States is that government owes a duty to protect the public in general, but owes no legal duty to protect any particular person from criminal attack. Neither the U.S. Constitution nor the federal civil rights laws require states to protect citizens from crime. As a federal appeals court bluntly put it, ordinary citizens have “no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen.”11
Exceptions to the no-duty rule apply when the police have expressly promised to protect a specific person from an identifiable danger. Informers in a witness protection program, for example, might have an enforceable right to protection. Yet it will make little difference to a dead victim if a court some years later decides that the police did owe a duty but failed to protect him, and then awards damages to next of kin.
Picture the situation: government establishes a police force and installs 911 emergency call service. Then the government announces to the world that “you don’t need a firearm for self-defense,” and so enacts “gun control” laws to make it difficult or impossible legally to get and use a gun. Meanwhile violent criminals remain illegally armed with guns and other weapons.
Now imagine you are snapped awake one night by the sounds of your door breaking in. You reach for the telephone to dial 911. The 911 emergency operator never answers. Or the police answer, take your frantic report, but don’t come. Or they come too late. In any of these scenarios, the burglar gets in, knifes you, and steals your VCR.
Crouching behind a chair with a telephone in your hand, you were defenseless because the government took away your private defense tools and handed you a telephone number to call for emergency help. You relied on that telephone number, and the help never came. The government’s policy made you a crime statistic.
Government lulls the public into trusting it to provide everything, takes away the people’s means of providing for themselves, and then claims it has no duty to provide after all. Noting the fatal irony in the “gun control” context, James Bovard has written that “government has a specific, concrete obligation to disarm each citizen, but only an abstract obligation to defend the citizen.” “Gun control;” Bovard notes, “is one of the best examples of laws that corner private citizens—forcing them either to put themselves into danger or to be a lawbreaker.”12
*Laying Bare the State Protection Myth*​The drive to prohibit private firearms ownership highlights the statists’ goals in a way everybody can understand. They aim to disarm ordinary nonviolent citizens, even those who face high risk of criminal attack, and substitute police protection in place of self-defense. Meanwhile the police will not be held liable to individual citizens for failing to defend them.
Government “social programs” and various mandatory “insurance” programs operate in the same way. First, the government programs distort the market forces that provide housing, food, medical care, transportation, and other goods and services. People shift to depending on the government programs instead of taking individual decisions and action.
When the government programs fail, however, the people relying on those programs have little or no effective recourse. At best, dissatisfied people can file bureaucratic appeals to the very agencies that harmed or cheated them. There can be judicial review of bureaucratic decisions in some cases also, but the judges are usually part of the same government, and they typically defer to the original government agency’s decision anyway.
In nearly all cases the citizen bears the stress and expense of pursuing appeals of bureaucratic decisions. The cost of appealing a government decision is already high. The effect of high appeal costs is to stop people from appealing—which gives results just like the “no duty,” “sovereign immunity,” and “public duty” rules. Government grabs power but sheds accountability.
The problem with government programs is not just that citizens have only narrow and costly avenues for appeals of decisions. While a government social program is operating, it is likely making worse the very problem it was trying to “solve.” People cannot get out of a government program and return to private action or free-market solutions because of the effects of the program itself. Legislators point to the “failure” of the mar ket, whine about the problems with the government program, and then prescribe more government. The voters reward those legislators by re-electing them.
Government power ratchets up the same way under a “gun control” regime. As laws discourage innocent citizens from defending themselves, the violent criminals remain undeterred. Absent some other, overweening factor, violent crime cannot possibly decrease in that environment; it more likely must increase. The statist response will naturally be to restrict firearms ownership even more, and to enhance the police presence. Greater police presence means more police, more surveillance, more reporting to government what citizens are doing. Nearly 170 million citizens lost their lives to their own governments in the twentieth century.13 There is little reason to celebrate a police state.
Revealing the lie underlying the “gun control” agenda strengthens the case against socialism and the welfare state on many levels. If the argument advances the cause of individual liberty, then it is an argument worth making.
_Richard Stevens is a lawyer in Washington, D.C., and author of_ Dial 911 and Die _(Mazel Freedom Press, 1999)._


----------



## dseag2 (May 27, 2022)

The 12 times Texas police have changed their story of what happened during the school shooting that left 19 children dead​Mia Jankowicz,Rebecca Cohen,Natalie Musumeci
Fri, May 27, 2022, 2:30 PM






Director and Colonel of the Texas Department of Public Safety Steven C. McCraw listens with other law enforcement officials during a press conference outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on May 27, 2022.CHANDAN KHANNA/AFP via Getty Images

Texas officials have changed their statements about the mass shooting at Robb Elementary on Thursday at least 12 times.
Police initially claimed a school cop confronted the shooter, but walked that back days later.
Now authorities say 19 police were ready to confront the suspect but were called off by a commander on scene.
Texas officials on Friday again made crucial changes to their timeline of the shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, adding to the lack of clarity around how the massacre took place and how police responded to the attack.
From the initial reports of the shooting on Tuesday to the most recent news briefing by Director of Texas Department of Public Safety Steven McCraw, police have changed the narrative of how law enforcement reacted to a gunman's rampage in which he killed 19 children and two teachers.
Facing withering criticism from parents, McCraw said that a police commander in charge of the scene — Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District Police Chief Pete Arredondo — refused to send police in to stop the shooting, calling the decision "wrong."
Here are the main changes to details that law enforcement officials have offered since the shooting:
Uvalde Police initially said the gunman was in custody​In one of the first statements about the shooting, the Uvalde Police Department said on Facebook that the gunman was in police custody.
"Update @ 1:06 Shooter is in Police Custody," the department said in a Facebook post Tuesday.
The department later revealed that a US Border Patrol tactical team fatally shot the gunman inside Robb Elementary.
Nobody actually confronted the gunman before he went in​At a Wednesday press conference, the director of Texas Department of Public Safety Steve McCraw said that "a brave resource officer" engaged with the gunman.
"At that time, gunfire was not exchanged, but the subject was able to make it into the school," McCraw said.
However, on Thursday, Escalon said this was incorrect.
"There was not an officer readily available and armed," Escalon said at a press conference.
And on Friday, McCraw added that the resource officer was not even on school grounds at the time of the shooting.
"There was discussion early on that an ISD ... had confronted the suspect. That did not happen. It was certainly stated in preliminary interviews, but often these preliminary interviews ... witnesses get it wrong," McCraw said Friday.
"The bottom line is that officer was not on scene, not on campus, but had heard the 911 call about the man with a gun, drove immediately to the area, sped to what he thought was the man with the gun, to the back of the school, to what turned out to be a teacher and not the suspect," McCraw continued.
McCraw added that the school police officer actually drove past the gunman, who was hiding behind a car.
How quickly the gunman entered the school​Police have been consistent in the details of the gunman's attack on his grandmother before the shooting and his crash near a funeral home across the street from the school at 11:28 a.m. on Tuesday.
But police initially said the gunman was confronted before going into the school. On Thursday, Escalon said that the gunman was firing outside the school and entered the school at 11:40 a.m., leaving a 12-minute window that was unexplained.
But on Friday, McCraw said that the shooter actually entered the school at 11:33 a.m., three minutes after a teacher called 911 to report the crash and a gunman on school grounds.
Police arrived on scene quickly but backed off for more than an hour​At Wednesday's press conference, McCraw said "Bottom line, law enforcement was there, they did engage immediately, they did contain him in a classroom. They put a tactical stack together, in a very orderly way, and breached and assaulted the individual."
Lt Chris Olivarez on Wednesday in an interview with NBC's "Today" show emphasized the speed of the police reaction. He said that police responded "within a moment's notice."
He also said that officers "without hesitation tried to make entry into that school," but were stopped by the gunman firing at them.
But by Thursday, police said that the gunman had not been killed by a US Border Patrol agent until 12:40, raising questions of what happened in the roughly hour between the shooting beginning and the gunman being shot to death.
According to new information from McCraw Friday, three local police officers got to the school at 11:35, just two minutes after the gunman initially entered the building and opened fire. Two of the cops were grazed by bullets as they entered the school, he added.
In this latest description, McCraw said police exchanged gunfire with the suspect until 11:44 a.m. By 11:51 a.m. a police sergeant and federal agent arrived and as of 12:03, there were 19 police officers in the hallway outside the classroom where the gunman was holed up.
Why didn't cops stop the Texas school shooter?​On Wednesday, Olivarez said, police began breaking windows and evacuating people as the gunman was barricaded in the school until more heavily-armed officers arrived and killed the gunman.
The first narrative did not make clear how long this took. The hour-long discrepancy was revealed on Thursday.
When asked Thursday why officers didn't take down the shooter as he was in the classroom with children, Asked at the press conference why authorities didn't engage sooner, Escalon said: "That's a tough question."
He cited the need to evacuate people as a possible reason, and added in the officers' defense that there was "a lot going on" and that it was "a complex situation."
But parents began sharing that cops outside the school had refused to go in to stop the shooter and restrained parents who tried to go in themselves.
"Nothing is adding up," Jay Martin, a local man, told The Wall Street Journal. "People are just really frustrated because no one is coming out and telling us the real truth of what went down."
One video from outside the school shows police holding back desperate parents who wanted to go into the school and rescue their kids.
One woman, Gladys Castillon, told the Journal that she had been begging police to be more proactive before the arrival of the tactical unit. Officers temporarily handcuffed a mom trying to get into the school, the Journal reported.
The mom ended up jumping a fence and running into the school, pulling her two children to safety herself, according to the Journal.
By Friday, police had new details about the delay: McCraw pointed the blame at the school police chief, Arredondo, who he said ordered police not to engage the suspect because he thought the suspect was "barricaded" and "there were no more children at risk."
McCraw — who wasn't at the scene at the time of the shooting and didn't command the officers at the time — added: "Obviously, based upon the information we have, there were children in that classroom that were at risk and it was, in fact, still an active shooter situation."
He noted that"of course it was not the right decision. It was the wrong decision. There is no excuse for that."
"When there's an active shooter, the rules change," McCraw said. "You don't have time."
The Uvalde school district did not respond to Insider's request for comment.
In fact, McCraw revealed that students inside the classrooms where the gunman was firing called 911 nearly a dozen times over the course of the shooting. One girl begged 911 twice to "send police now" after the gunman killed her teacher and some of her classmates.
According to the last timeline provided by McCraw on Friday, police opened the locked door to the classroom using a key and shot and killed the gunman at 12:50 p.m. — 10 minutes later than initially reported.
Questions still remain about the police response​Police have given conflicting reports on the timeline of the shooting, though law enforcement officials have noted that it is not unusual for a more complete narrative to form as police investigate.
Still, Texas authorities' news briefings have often left reporters and the public with more questions than answers. Even as of Friday, it was unclear if 911 dispatchers alerted police at the scene to the children still trapped inside with the shooter and police did not say what ultimately convinced the tactical team to breach the classroom and shoot the gunman.
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott on Friday reacted to the new information that was revealed earlier in the day Friday about the police response to the mass shooting, saying, "I was misled."
*"I am livid about what happened," said Abbott, who days earlier praised the response by law enforcement.*
"As everybody has learned, the information that I was given turned out in part to be inaccurate," Abbott said. "And I am absolutely livid about that."
Read the original article on Insider


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Sigh. For those that feel the need to arm themselves and their home I would suggest they consider a Stevens 20 gauge short barrel pump action shotgun. Granted this may prove inadequate to stop a hoard of rampaging zombies, but it should scare the Hell out of the average home burglar, and a missed shot will not penetrate a couple of walls and kill a neighbor.
> 
> BTW - The shotgun will likely comply with state Laws, now or in the future. I gather from your “Ca” location that you might be a California citizen. Are you sure your arsenal is currently in compliance?


LOL - _"Arsenal." _ I always appreciate a sense of humor.  I truly believe Laughter is the best medicine.
This is a free country (still).  Just as with my health decisions, the only person who can choose my defensive firearms (or whether or not I want to own defensive firearms) is ME.
I don't have the luxury of deciding how many rats are running in packs if they choose to victimize me,) so a shotgun is not my choice.
My next-door neighbors were an elderly couple who were beaten & robbed by a gang of 3 or 4.
We've all heard _"Give them what they want & they won't hurt you."_
You can't get into a thug's mind & decide what he will do; he will do whatever he wants unless you're able to stop him.
After they were released from the hospital, security gates went up on the house & the owner (a big NBA star) sold the house.
You mentioned _"moving to a safer area." _ The house sold for $5,000,000.00.  There is no such thing as a "safe area."


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> The 12 times Texas police have changed their story of what happened during the school shooting that left 19 children dead​Mia Jankowicz,Rebecca Cohen,Natalie Musumeci
> Fri, May 27, 2022, 2:30 PM
> 
> 
> ...


Attorney Alan Dershowitz said it best:
One of the important skills police officers are trained in while in the police academy is _*"Testilying."*_


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

morgan said:


> The police finally admitted they messed up. I am bewildered as to how 19 officers  wearing protective armour and carrying rifles can stand in a hallway waiting for keys toopen doors while children die.




 How would you have them open the doors ? Did they have 'battering" tools ?

 If they are like the industrial doors I remember ? Those are pretty substantial doors,not easily 'knocked' down. And if I recall correctly ? after one or more of the more recent school attacks , the doors were [upgraded] to be even stronger.


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## win231 (May 27, 2022)

morgan said:


> The police finally admitted they messed up. I am bewildered as to how 19 officers  wearing protective armour and carrying rifles can stand in a hallway waiting for keys toopen doors while children die.


They not only have body armor, they also have bulletproof shields - which enable accurate fire during use:


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## SeaBreeze (May 27, 2022)

Della said:


> If one of those cops failed to go in and try to save little children who were being gunned down because _he didn't think he was being paid enough  _then he is  truly a horrible person.
> 
> Just how much do you think the lives of 19 children is worth?  What price would you demand before you tried to save them?  None of them were mine, but if I was there I'm pretty sure I would try to slip inside the school and try to find where the shooter was and try to save them save them and I wouldn't give a moments thought to whether or not I was being paid anything at all.
> 
> They had vests, you can see that in the picture and plenty of guns.


All good points.  Honest and reasonable post, thank you.


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## morgan (May 27, 2022)

rgp said:


> How would you have them open the doors ? Did they have 'battering" tools ?
> 
> If they are like the industrial doors I remember ? Those are pretty substantial doors,not easily 'knocked' down. And if I recall correctly ? after one or more of the more recent school attacks , the doors were [upgraded] to be even stronger.


I don't understand your logic. Industrial doors are usually on the outside of a building. The police officers were already in the building in the hallway. All had guns, ever watched a wild west movie? Rapid fire can bring a door down.
When police officers are attending a drug bust, they take battering rams. How come these officers did not take the same to this incident?


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## rgp (May 27, 2022)

morgan said:


> I don't understand your logic. Industrial doors are usually on the outside of a building. The police officers were already in the building in the hallway. All had guns, ever watched a wild west movie? Rapid fire can bring a door down.
> When police officers are attending a drug bust, they take battering rams. How come these officers did not take the same to this incident?




  I do not base my opinion/argument of reality on the scenes in the movies.

 When was the last time you were in a school or a hotel ? Those are some pretty stout doors ... inside / off the hallway. And again I did ask .... did they have battering tools ? I do not know, as i was not there, were you ?

Perhaps the budget of a small town P/D didn't allow for it ?

  "All had guns, ever watched a wild west movie? Rapid fire can bring a door down. "

 In the movies .... they also get 20-100 shots from a six-shooter.


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## morgan (May 27, 2022)

rgp said:


> I do not base my opinion/argument of reality on the scenes in the movies.
> 
> When was the last time you were in a school or a hotel ? Those are some pretty stout doors ... inside / off the hallway. And again I did ask .... did they have battering tools ? I do not know, as i was not there, were you ?
> 
> ...


You still have not got the point and I have a feeling you are making excuses for  the inept officers.  I repeat there is a big difference between "stout"doors and "industrial" doors.


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## ElCastor (May 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> LOL - _"Arsenal." _ I always appreciate a sense of humor.  I truly believe Laughter is the best medicine.
> This is a free country (still).  Just as with my health decisions, the only person who can choose my defensive firearms (or whether or not I want to own defensive firearms) is ME.


A couple of tips on choosing a safe neighborhood from someone who grew up in Oakland. Never live in a place where you see bars on the windows, and a good Internet source -- investigate an area of interest on:    https://www.areavibes.com/     Virtually every city and suburb in the US is listed. I would avoid anywhere with a crime rating lower than A+ or A.

As for who can choose your defensive firearm -- most states, including California, have laws, and after Uvalde they are likely to have more. Obeying the law is always a good idea. I don't recommend shooting a burglar with an illegal weapon -- might tend to backfire on you.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

Police prevented Federal Agents from confronting shooter for an hour.  Agents wanted to enter an adjoining classroom to stop the shooter:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/border-patrol-tactical-team-ordered-170904118.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/feds-entered-uvalde-school-kill-230638123.html


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> A couple of tips on choosing a safe neighborhood from someone who grew up in Oakland. Never live in a place where you see bars on the windows, and a good Internet source -- investigate an area of interest on:    https://www.areavibes.com/     Virtually every city and suburb in the US is listed. I would avoid anywhere with a crime rating lower than A+ or A.
> 
> As for who can choose your defensive firearm -- most states, including California, have laws, and after Uvalde they are likely to have more. Obeying the law is always a good idea. I don't recommend shooting a burglar with an illegal weapon -- might tend to backfire on you.


I get it.  You have trouble staying on a topic.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

morgan said:


> You still have not got the point and I have a feeling you are making excuses for  the inept officers.  I repeat there is a big difference between "stout"doors and "industrial" doors.


It's quite common for retired police officers to go to great lengths to defend _all _actions of police officers.
Some have even defended Derek Chauvin.


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## hollydolly (May 28, 2022)

_The young girl who smeared herself with the blood of one of her slain classmates to avoid being shot said the crazed gunman played 'I want people to die music' as he executed 19 of her classmates, as well as two teachers. 

Miah Cerrillo, 11, told CNN that her class was watching the Disney movie Lilo and Stitch because it was the end of the school year when her teacher got an email that there was an active shooter. 

But the teacher got the notification too late and as she went to lock the door Ramos was already there and shot through the door window.

According to Cerrillo, Ramos then walked into the fourth grade classroom and looked one of the teachers, either Eva Mireles or Irma Garcia, in the eye and told her 'goodnight' before shooting her. 

Cerrillo said after that Ramos began opening fire on the students, striking her with bullet fragments on her back and neck, before he walked towards the connected classroom and continued shooting. 

After that Cerrillo said that Ramos started playing 'sad' music that the 11-year-old could only describe as the kind of music you play when 'you want people to die.'

Cerrillo said that she and her friend grabbed her teachers phone to call 911 and out of fear Ramos would return to her classroom and shoot her she smeared the blood of one of her dead classmates onto her and played dead. 

The 11-year-old's family said they will be working to help Cerrillo emotionally and mentally, as well as her sister - who is a second-grader at the school - following the shooting.

'At this point, we just have to pray and ask God to help us move forward through this situation. I know it’s traumatizing and having an 11-year-old go through this, I can’t imagine what she’s feeling,' her aunt Blanca Rivera told Click 2 Houston.







https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...als-shooter-played-want-people-die-music.html_


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## Della (May 28, 2022)

I'd like to hear from the teacher who propped that door open.  She didn't just forget to lock it, she purposely propped it open.  Was she going out for a smoke?


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

Della said:


> I'd like to hear from the teacher who propped that door open.  She didn't just forget to lock it, she purposely propped it open.  Was she going out for a smoke?



 If we can believe what we hear ? ..... the news story I hear was that she forgot something in the car.


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## Della (May 28, 2022)

rgp said:


> If we can believe what we hear ? ..... the news story I hear was that she forgot something in the car.


Ah.  Well I pity her, whatever her reason was.  What a mistake to have to live with. 

Even though I'm furious about it all, I pity the police who were there, too.  _I_f they were ordered
by a superior to stand down, I don't know what else they should have done.  Now they have to live with the knowledge that all those parents blame them for their children's death.


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

morgan said:


> You still have not got the point and I have a feeling you are making excuses for  the inept officers.  I repeat there is a big difference between "stout"doors and "industrial" doors.




 I am not making excuses for anyone, exception being the [as reported] first cop that arrived alone. Was _*HE*_ swat trained and , as such properly equipped ? 

A school is an industrial/commercial building . They have "stout/"industrial" doors ....... Again, not easy to knock down without battering equipment . A cop, or whomever cannot just hit it with his shoulder and go in guns blazing. ...... Again that's the movies.


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

Della said:


> Ah.  Well I pity her, whatever her reason was.  What a mistake to have to live with.
> 
> Even though I'm furious about it all, I pity the police who were there, too.  _I_f they were ordered
> by a superior to stand down, I don't know what else they should have done.  Now they have to live with the knowledge that all those parents blame them for their children's death.




 OK, consider this ......... Do you really think [for even a second] that she went to work that day, with even a miniscule inkling that some whack-job kid was going to storm the school to take lives ? She goes out a door to retrieve [something] perhaps does not have a key, to that door that locks automatically, and blocks it open for just a few seconds ....... She is not the devil ..... she is as normal as anyone here.

Most people do not live in a negative world, with constant evil on their minds. Most live in a positive world , and [even though it has happend before] they just cannot conceive of such a thing.


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

win231 said:


> It's quite common for retired police officers to go to great lengths to defend _all _actions of police officers.
> Some have even defended Derek Chauvin.




 Even though it appears that you think you know everything ...... I am not a retired police officer.

 But yes I still do defend Derek Chauvin.


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## morgan (May 28, 2022)

rgp said:


> If we can believe what we hear ? ..... the news story I hear was that she forgot something in the car.


she went to get her cell phone


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## Sunny (May 28, 2022)

Seems that everybody is being blamed for this tragedy except for the primary guilty party:  whoever gave or sold that assault weapon to a disturbed teenager.  Why the silence about that?


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## Pepper (May 28, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Seems that everybody is being blamed for this tragedy except for the primary guilty party:  whoever gave or sold that assault weapon to a disturbed teenager.  Why the silence about that?


It appears to be a legal purchase; your quarrel is with the laws of the state.  A salesman is not a psychiatrist; he was making a legal sale to a person of age.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

rgp said:


> Even though it appears that you think you know everything ...... I am not a retired police officer.
> 
> But yes I still do defend Derek Chauvin.


'nuff said.  Complete picture


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## ElCastor (May 28, 2022)

win231 said:


> I get it.  You have trouble staying on a topic.


If the topic is your love of guns, then yes, I have trouble with it.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> If the topic is your love of guns, then yes, I have trouble with it.


^^^ same problem as stated previously.  Digression:  the action of moving away from the main subject you are writing or talking about and writing or talking about something else:


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## ElCastor (May 28, 2022)

win231 said:


> ^^^ same problem as stated previously.  Digression:  the action of moving away from the main subject you are writing or talking about and writing or talking about something else:


I've said what I believe needed to be said -- semi-automatic weapons, and assault style rifles in civilian hands should be legally banned. You disagree. We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## StarSong (May 28, 2022)

rgp said:


> I do not base my opinion/argument of reality on the scenes in the movies.
> 
> When was the last time you were in a school or a hotel ? Those are some pretty stout doors ... inside / off the hallway. And again I did ask .... did they have battering tools ? I do not know, as i was not there, were you ?
> 
> ...


Well they seem to have eventually taken the door down.  Doubting it weakened during the time those cops were busy twiddling their thumbs and threatening parents.  

The police on scene were nothing short of despicable cowards - the whole lot of them should be fired if not prosecuted.

This situation is sickening from start to finish.


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## Della (May 28, 2022)

rgp said:


> OK, consider this ......... Do you really think [for even a second] that she went to work that day, with even a miniscule inkling that some whack-job kid was going to storm the school to take lives ? She goes out a door to retrieve [something] perhaps does not have a key, to that door that locks automatically, and blocks it open for just a few seconds ....... She is not the devil ..... she is as normal as anyone here.
> 
> Most people do not live in a negative world, with constant evil on their minds. Most live in a positive world , and [even though it has happend before] they just cannot conceive of such a thing.


What did you think I meant when I said I pitied her? I think she did a very ordinary, 'I'll be right back" sort of thing anyone might do and now the poor woman has to think about it and wish she could do that moment over for the rest of her life.

How you could have read my post and turn that into me calling her "the devil" I just don't know.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

Jules said:


> I didn’t watch the videos.  What did those homeowners have that the bad guys wanted so much?  Was it the guns?


Does it really matter what home invasion thugs are after?
Not every criminal is only a thief.  They may be after murder, rape, or just the sheer pleasure they get out of hurting someone.
Or, if they are only after cash & valuables, they might kill to eliminate witnesses.
What's the difference?  Once they're in your house, you are at their mercy.  Some don't accept that.


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## SeniorBen (May 28, 2022)

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

UVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Idaho resident Kathy Miller, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”
https://foxnews.com/no-way-to-prevent-mass-shootings


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## Sassycakes (May 28, 2022)

I don't think I have stopped crying for all those lost lives in Texas. My daughter teaches an autistic boy in an Elementary school and my grandaughter goes to the same school.


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## Don M. (May 28, 2022)

I can't believe that the police failed to act quickly.  I'm sure there will be some serious investigation about how they handled this mess, and if there was someone in charge, at the scene, who ordered the police to "delay", I hope that individual is fired, and perhaps even prosecuted for dereliction of duty.  
The police have been denigrated over the past couple of years, and this incident will only reduce the publics trust.


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## hawkdon (May 28, 2022)

This same type of response happened at Columbine also
if I remember correctly....either lack of training or lack
of confidence IMO.....


----------



## win231 (May 28, 2022)

Don M. said:


> I can't believe that the police failed to act quickly.  I'm sure there will be some serious investigation about how they handled this mess, and if there was someone in charge, at the scene, who ordered the police to "delay", I hope that individual is fired, and perhaps even prosecuted for dereliction of duty.
> The police have been denigrated over the past couple of years, and this incident will only reduce the publics trust.


No firing, no prosecuting.  Police have NO duty to protect anyone.  That's the law.


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

hawkdon said:


> This same type of response happened at Columbine also
> if I remember correctly....either lack of training or lack
> of confidence IMO.....


The same type of response also happened at Stoneman Douglas High School where a 19-year-old killed 17.
A school police officer just stood outside while students were being murdered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Douglas_High_School_shooting


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> _The young girl who smeared herself with the blood of one of her slain classmates to avoid being shot said the crazed gunman played 'I want people to die music' as he executed 19 of her classmates, as well as two teachers.
> 
> Miah Cerrillo, 11, told CNN that her class was watching the Disney movie Lilo and Stitch because it was the end of the school year when her teacher got an email that there was an active shooter.
> 
> ...




That little girl's quick thinking and bravery is just amazing.


Della said:


> What did you think I meant when I said I pitied her? I think she did a very ordinary, 'I'll be right back" sort of thing anyone might do and now the poor woman has to think about it and wish she could do that moment over for the rest of her life.
> 
> How you could have read my post and turn that into me calling her "the devil" I just don't know.




  Agree completely. If it sounded like I was dissing you ? That was not my intent at all ..... perhaps i sholud have worded it differently ? I was only posting an opinion/statement ..... that sounded accusatory ....... my apologies .


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## ohioboy (May 28, 2022)

Don M. said:


> I can't believe that the police failed to act quickly.  I'm sure there will be some serious investigation about how they handled this mess, and if there was someone in charge, at the scene, who ordered the police to "delay", I hope that individual is fired, and perhaps even prosecuted for dereliction of duty.


I could not find a DoD statute for TX like Ohio has. Even under ours, the doctrine of creating a Private Cause of Action from a violation of Criminal Statute could possibly be implied??

The federal constitution may prohibit such suits, but I am unsure about any states with a direct statute or constitutional case law that permits it?


----------



## Sunny (May 28, 2022)

Aside from the obvious insanity of selling such a weapon to a disturbed person, I would really like to know what possible reason there could be for _any _civilian to own one. When would a person be in a situation where they need to fire continuous rounds of ammunition, clearly designed to kill as many people as quickly as possible? Has there ever, in real life, been a situation where such a weapon would be needed?


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## Lawrence (May 28, 2022)

I put the blame of these murders on the killer. I do not blame the police or other people involved in this situation.


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## rgp (May 28, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Aside from the obvious insanity of selling such a weapon to a disturbed person, I would really like to know what possible reason there could be for _any _civilian to own one. When would a person be in a situation where they need to fire continuous rounds of ammunition, clearly designed to kill as many people as quickly as possible? Has there ever, in real life, been a situation where such a weapon would be needed?



  I'm betting the folks in Ukraine are wishing they each had one ?


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## JustDave (May 28, 2022)

What I can't rap my head around is if you're mad at the world or just needing to kill someone with your gun, why pick on a bunch of 10 and 11 year olds?  Is it just being a bigger dick than the last guy?


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## win231 (May 28, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Aside from the obvious insanity of selling such a weapon to a disturbed person, I would really like to know what possible reason there could be for _any _civilian to own one. When would a person be in a situation where they need to fire continuous rounds of ammunition, clearly designed to kill as many people as quickly as possible? Has there ever, in real life, been a situation where such a weapon would be needed?


I've posted several.  But for "some strange reason" you don't want to see them. 
None so blind........


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## Ruthanne (May 28, 2022)

mrstime said:


> All I can say is that when Americans get tired of the killings they will put a stop to it!


We are tired of it, damn tired and sickened.  It is the lawmakers who need to act--we elected them.


----------



## SeaBreeze (May 28, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Well they seem to have eventually taken the door down.  Doubting it weakened during the time those cops were busy twiddling their thumbs and threatening parents.
> 
> The police on scene were nothing short of despicable cowards - the whole lot of them should be fired if not prosecuted.
> 
> This situation is sickening from start to finish.


Completely agree.


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## Jules (May 28, 2022)

They may have had issues breaking the doors, how about breaking a window instead?


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## Ruthanne (May 28, 2022)

What happened is just God Awful in so many ways.  I can't fathom why the police didn't stop it sooner.  Terribly sad and I'm very sad over it.


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## Tish (May 29, 2022)

This really broke my heart.


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## Jackie23 (May 29, 2022)

Ruthanne said:


> We are tired of it, damn tired and sickened.  It is the lawmakers who need to act--we elected them.


Right on!  and if the lawmakers don't act (as has been the case for too many years) we the people need to act by voting them out.
The very reason this country has this mammoth problem is because politicians have refuse to install some form of meaningful gun control

Doing NOTHING makes it easier for children to be slaughtered.


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## rgp (May 29, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> Right on!  and if the lawmakers don't act (as has been the case for too many years) we the people need to act by voting them out.
> The very reason this country has this mammoth problem is because politicians have refuse to install some form of meaningful gun control
> 
> Doing NOTHING makes it easier for children to be slaughtered.




 I'm sure you will think I am just arguing with you ..... But I am not.

 What exactly is [IYO] meaningful gun control?


----------



## Timewise 60+ (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Aside from the obvious insanity of selling such a weapon to a disturbed person, I would really like to know what possible reason there could be for _any _civilian to own one. When would a person be in a situation where they need to fire continuous rounds of ammunition, clearly designed to kill as many people as quickly as possible? Has there ever, in real life, been a situation where such a weapon would be needed?


The answer to this question is actually in the Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution...you should read it sometime!  Our founding Fathers clearly understood what was NECESSARY to maintain a government for and by the people!


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## Lavinia (May 29, 2022)

There obviously was no racial element to this atrocity and the youth killed his own people. Has there been any explanation for his actions? There were warnings apparently, that he intended to do something like this, but no-one took it seriously.


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## Sunny (May 29, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> The answer to this question is actually in the Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution...you should read it sometime!  Our founding Fathers clearly understood what was NECESSARY to maintain a government for and by the people!


You mean the part about *a well-regulated militia?*  Do you understand what those words mean, or is the concept too difficult for you to grasp?  And if you do understand what the words mean, would you say they apply to Salvador Ramos?

His mother said, "He had his reasons."  I'd like to know what reasons anyone could have had for committing such an atrocity.


----------



## Sunny (May 29, 2022)

Lots of blame is deservedly going to the non-acting police in this case.  They apparently got no orders to do anything other than just show up there and stand around, listening to the gunshots inside.  Not one of them had the common sense or gumption to find a way to break in.

But I really do feel that the biggest part of the blame in this situation goes to whoever provided a mentally ill person with such a weapon. There seems to be very little publicity about this. I wonder why.

If he bought it "legally," I think whoever sold it to him should be prosecuted.  And if there is no law in Texas regulating who is allowed to buy an assault weapon, there should be. Georgia swang over into sanity; maybe some day, Teas will also.


----------



## rgp (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Lots of blame is deservedly going to the non-acting police in this case.  They apparently got no orders to do anything other than just show up there and stand around, listening to the gunshots inside.  Not one of them had the common sense or gumption to find a way to break in.
> 
> But I really do feel that the biggest part of the blame in this situation goes to whoever provided a mentally ill person with such a weapon. There seems to be very little publicity about this. I wonder why.
> 
> If he bought it "legally," I think whoever sold it to him should be prosecuted.  And if there is no law in Texas regulating who is allowed to buy an assault weapon, there should be. Georgia swang over into sanity; maybe some day, Teas will also.



 OK, you own a gun store, I walk in and display no outward signs of being imbalanced. I Say , yes ma'am I liked to purchase that $2000 gun there. At what point would you decide I should perhaps not have that weapon ? You run the required background check , I am cleared to purchase, then I go out & do something horrible ....... should _*you*_ be arrested/prosecuted ..... possibly jailed ??


----------



## win231 (May 29, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> Right on!  and if the lawmakers don't act (as has been the case for too many years) we the people need to act by voting them out.
> The very reason this country has this mammoth problem is because politicians have refuse to install some form of meaningful gun control
> 
> Doing NOTHING makes it easier for children to be slaughtered.


Interesting that you mention_ "Doing Nothing."_
Exactly what police officers did for an hour when they arrived.  _"Nothing."  _While children called & begged for help.


----------



## oldman (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Lots of blame is deservedly going to the non-acting police in this case.  They apparently got no orders to do anything other than just show up there and stand around, listening to the gunshots inside.  Not one of them had the common sense or gumption to find a way to break in.
> 
> But I really do feel that the biggest part of the blame in this situation goes to whoever provided a mentally ill person with such a weapon. There seems to be very little publicity about this. I wonder why.
> 
> If he bought it "legally," I think whoever sold it to him should be prosecuted.  And if there is no law in Texas regulating who is allowed to buy an assault weapon, there should be. Georgia swang over into sanity; maybe some day, Teas will also.


I am not the bravest person in the world, but if I am outside of a school, regardless if it’s an elementary or high school, and I hear unmistakable gunshots ringing out and I am armed, which I will be because I carry my gun most everywhere I go, I certainly would attempt to make entry away from the last place I heard a shot. If I heard the shot in the front of the building, I would try to make entry through the rear.

My biggest concern is that I would assume the shooter to be using an AR-15 and I wouldn’t be wearing any protection, like a Kevlar vest, so I would need to be in an area where I can duck behind a wall or some other form of protection. If the AR-15 is firing .223 shells, I would probably fire at the target and then immediately change positions. I doubt if hiding behind a brick wall would stop a .223. 

I don’t think I could just do nothing.


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## win231 (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Lots of blame is deservedly going to the non-acting police in this case.  They apparently got no orders to do anything other than just show up there and stand around, listening to the gunshots inside.  Not one of them had the common sense or gumption to find a way to break in.
> 
> But I really do feel that the biggest part of the blame in this situation goes to whoever provided a mentally ill person with such a weapon. There seems to be very little publicity about this. I wonder why.
> 
> If he bought it "legally," I think whoever sold it to him should be prosecuted.  And if there is no law in Texas regulating who is allowed to buy an assault weapon, there should be. Georgia swang over into sanity; maybe some day, Teas will also.


_"If he bought it legally, the seller should be prosecuted?"_  For what?
Should the seller who sold Tim McVeigh Fertilizer & fuel he used to kill 167 people - including 21 children in the day care center on the 1st floor, be prosecuted, too?
Should the seller who sold knives to Charles Manson's gang be prosecuted?
C'mon, you can make more sense than that.


----------



## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2022)

How come Switzerland has guns but no mass shootings?


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## StarSong (May 29, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> How come Switzerland has guns but no mass shootings?


Presented with humor, but a lot of good points were made.


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## Sunny (May 29, 2022)

rgp said:


> OK, you own a gun store, I walk in and display no outward signs of being imbalanced. I Say , yes ma'am I liked to purchase that $2000 gun there. At what point would you decide I should perhaps not have that weapon ? You run the required background check , I am cleared to purchase, then I go out & do something horrible ....... should _*you*_ be arrested/prosecuted ..... possibly jailed ??


No decent background check would have cleared that kid.


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## Buckeye (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> No decent background check would have cleared that kid.


This is today's version of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy

No True Scotsman - Wiki


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## Sunny (May 29, 2022)

From Ruth Marcus's column in today's Post:

_Just two weeks ago, a divided panel of the 9th Circuit struck down California’s ban on the sale of semiautomatic rifles to anyone under 21.
The opinion, by [deleted] appointee Ryan D. Nelson, opened with a paean to Colonial-era youths. “America would not exist without the heroism of the young adults who fought and died in our revolutionary army,” he wrote, joined by fellow [deleted] appointee Kenneth Lee. “Today we reaffirm that our Constitution still protects the right that enabled their sacrifice: the right of young adults to keep and bear arms.”
Seriously? Tell that to the parents of the dead fourth-graders in Uvalde. This isn’t about who could carry muskets back then. It’s about who has access to deadly weaponry today, guns more lethal than the authors of the Second Amendment could ever have imagined._

And that's exactly the point. The Constitution is able to be amended. So are the amendments. They are not carved in stone, meant to be blindly followed for centuries or millenia, no matter what has changed.  Today's weapons are a far cry from the muskets of the Revolutionary War. The penchant for committing mass shootings of innocent people, by youths who are psychotic, twisted by the lives they lead every day, maybe on drugs, etc. is a far cry from the "well-regulated militia" of the 18th century.

Things do change, and sometimes our behavior has to change also. After all, if you became critically ill, would you want to be treated by George Washington's doctor?


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## Della (May 29, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> The answer to this question is actually in the Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution...you should read it sometime!  Our founding Fathers clearly understood what was NECESSARY to maintain a government for and by the people!


Our founding fathers had no concept of automatic weapons.  They were picturing muskets, which take far too long to load to be effective in a mass shooting.  No doubt our founding fathers were mostly fine, moral men but they were insider politicians, they were not saints or prophets, and they could not see the future.



Sunny said:


> No decent background check would have cleared that kid.


I don't think there's been any reports that he was ever diagnosed as mentally ill or a convicted felon. Why would a background check make any difference.

The NRA believes that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun, but there is not and never will be a fool proof way to tell which is which.  When this murderer bought his guns he looked just like any other 18 year old.


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## Della (May 29, 2022)

Pete Arredondo, who serves as the chief police for the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District, was the "Incident Commander," of the situation at the school.

I expect he's the only one who will have to pay big consequences. All those 19 policemen who were standing around in the school hallway for 77 minutes waiting for the Border Patrol Tactical Unit to come, and the janitor  to find the keys, will be able to say they were following orders from the Incident Commander.

I understand that there would be chaos if military and police didn't follow orders, but you'd think at some point, one of them might have slipped around to the outside to look in the window, or run down to the school office to look for another set of keys, or found the janitor to ask him what was taking so long, or gone outside and asked one of the teachers for her keys.  Would that have been so terribly disobedient to the commander?

Were the 911 operators relaying any information to the police?

The 3 other policemen who were there when George Floyd died are in prison now even though they were following orders from a senior officer.  Just saying.  

Those parents are so  devastated and  so angry, it hurts my heart every time the news talks to one of them.


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## Pepper (May 29, 2022)

Good post @Della!


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## rgp (May 29, 2022)

Sunny said:


> No decent background check would have cleared that kid.




 How do you know that ? Were any of his indiscretions a matter of record ? Was he on file @ a hospital, or perhaps a police station as a mental case ?


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## Della (May 29, 2022)

Every time something like this happens the NRA starts talking about better back ground checks even when it's clear that better background checks would not have kept this boy or most of these mass killers from getting their guns.  Felons steal their guns.  Teens make their own guns from kits or get a friend to buy their guns for them.  

Background checks are just the NRA's favorite distraction to keep us from talking about the real reason this keeps happening. 

 It's the guns!  Take the guns away and it can't happen.


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## oldman (May 29, 2022)

After 9/11, we installed impenetrable doors on airplane cockpits. Why can’t we do that on school entrances?


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## Pepper (May 29, 2022)

oldman said:


> After 9/11, we installed impenetrable doors on airplane cockpits. Why can’t we do that on school entrances?


In this instance it wouldn't have done much good as the door was propped open.


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## oldman (May 29, 2022)

Pepper said:


> In this instance it wouldn't have done much good as the door was propped open.


Well, yeah, you do have to shut and lock the doors, but they do make spring loaded closers. Hospitals also use them for their medicine closets. They have to do the same as pilots when they want to enter. They have to type in the combination number.

Had the same doors been on the school with a policy in place that all entrance doors must be closed and locked, I am sure that this nut job wouldn’t have been able to get in.

Don’t you believe that this would be a viable option?


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## oldman (May 29, 2022)

There are schools in our area and probably in other areas that teachers and administrators have to use their keycard to open doors, including the entrance doors to the school. Problem with keycards us that they can be stolen. Combination numbers cannot be stolen, unless some fool writes them down and keeps a copy somewhere students have access.

Each time a plane lands, the new pilots flying that plane, put in their own numbers, so the combination is never the same.


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## Warrigal (May 29, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> How come Switzerland has guns but no mass shootings?


The video is unavailable in OZ so I did a bit of digging.

This is what I found. Mass shootings are not the only problem related to gun ownership.



> *Does Switzerland have the most gun violence in Europe?*
> ... the Swiss aren't perfect when it comes to guns. Switzerland still has one of the highest rates of gun violence in Europe, and most gun deaths in the country are suicides. Around the world, stronger gun laws have been linked to fewer gun deaths.


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## StarSong (May 29, 2022)

oldman said:


> Well, yeah, you do have to shut and lock the doors, but they do make spring loaded closers. Hospitals also use them for their medicine closets. They have to do the same as pilots when they want to enter. They have to type in the combination number.
> 
> Had the same doors been on the school with a policy in place that all entrance doors must be closed and locked, I am sure that this nut job wouldn’t have been able to get in.
> 
> Don’t you believe that this would be a viable option?


So he would have timed his slaughter of innocents for recess time or immediately following school dismissal.   It doesn't take a genius to know dozens of children are milling around a school.  

What about the grocery store shooting in Buffalo, or the nightclub shooting in Orlando, or the movie theater shooting in Aurora, or the outdoor shooting in Las Vegas.  We can't secure everyone behind breach proof doors every time they leave their homes.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (May 29, 2022)

Former NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton says it is “mind-boggling” how much Texas authorities mishandled last week’s school massacre.

“I’ve never seen anything like it in all my years of policing,” Bratton said during an appearance on WABC 770’s “The Cats Roundtable” that aired Sunday. “I have so much anger at the moment at how mishandled this has been.”

“We now understand that there may have been an off-duty border patrol agent who is sitting in a barber shop. And his wife calls from the school. She’s a teacher, and she’s there with her daughter in the classroom,” he said. “He grabs a shotgun from the barber shop, rushes to the school, goes into the back of the school …  and rescues a classroom of children and his wife and his daughter, even as in another part of the school there are 19 police officers … in the hallways outside the classroom where the shooter is holed up.

“The children] were … dying literally, while the [police] were standing outside the door,” Bratton said. “How do you put your arms around this thing?”

https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/ex-nypd-commish-bratton-slams-police-response-to-texas-massacre/


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## ohioboy (May 29, 2022)

Police have no duty to protect Constitutionally unless a "Special Relationship" is established, here, it was not by the police. Other torts may be available, such as Common law Negligence. There will be lawsuits against some entity (ies), bet on it.


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## rgp (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Every time something like this happens the NRA starts talking about better back ground checks even when it's clear that better background checks would not have kept this boy or most of these mass killers from getting their guns.  Felons steal their guns.  Teens make their own guns from kits or get a friend to buy their guns for them.
> 
> Background checks are just the NRA's favorite distraction to keep us from talking about the real reason this keeps happening.
> 
> It's the guns!  Take the guns away and it can't happen.



 Well then we had better take away cars as well. Until [I believe] just last year, cars killed more people in this country than anything.


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## rgp (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Every time something like this happens the NRA starts talking about better back ground checks even when it's clear that better background checks would not have kept this boy or most of these mass killers from getting their guns.  Felons steal their guns.  Teens make their own guns from kits or get a friend to buy their guns for them.
> 
> Background checks are just the NRA's favorite distraction to keep us from talking about the real reason this keeps happening.
> 
> It's the guns!  Take the guns away and it can't happen.



How do you propose to take away an estimated 350,000,000 guns, already owned ?

IMO, even an attempt, would lead to a blood bath.


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## Della (May 30, 2022)

rgp said:


> How do you propose to take away an estimated 350,000,000 guns, already owned ?
> 
> IMO, even an attempt, would lead to a blood bath.


Well, when they decided to do it in Australia they managed to peacefully confiscate 650,000 guns.  

That's not as many as we have, but we do have lots of  law enforcement in every state.  

We could get quite a few  by buying them  back from the owners. There's nothing like the way to get some quick money to make people ready to part with something else.  One day it's, "Not from my cold dead hands,"  and the next it's, "I could have that car!"

Other guns would trickle in as police made it part of arrests and of course if no one is selling them no one can legally buy new ones.

it would take time and we wouldn't get rid of them all, but if we had that in place our most recent mass shootings probably wouldn't have happened.

I don't know why something that so many Americans are in favor of should result in a blood bath.

We're only talking about guns.  Unlike cars or drugs, no one needs guns for transportation to work or because of some disease.   The one and only purpose for guns is to kill things.  If someone can't part with their killing machine then that might be a good sign police should take it by force.


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## morgan (May 30, 2022)

At least eight mass shootings took place across the U.S. over the weekend following Tuesday's mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Another three occurred between Wednesday and Friday.
Eight people have been killed and another 45 injured in the five days following the Uvalde massacre.


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## Warrigal (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Well, when they decided to do it in Australia they managed to peacefully confiscate 650,000 guns.
> 
> That's not as many as we have, but we do have lots of  law enforcement in every state.
> 
> ...


 Della is correct. Guns weren't taken from unwilling Australians. Legislation was introduced that unified the laws and regulation relating to firearms (and other lethal weapons) across all states. Some categories were banned including pump action shotguns and automatic weapons. People who owned them could hand them in and receive compensation (buyback). They were collected and destroyed. For other older weapons there was an amnesty period during which they could be voluntarily surrendered without questions being asked and these too were destroyed. Antique and other collectible items were allowed provided they were rendered unable to be fired. 

Almost all weapons were subject to registration and owners needed to demonstrate the reason why they wanted the firearm. Self protection is not a legitimate reason for owning a gun but belonging into a club where target shooting is the activity will be accepted. So is eradication of vermin on rural properties. Some people require them for their job.

There were grumbles but by and large Australians had had enough of mass murders and Port Arthur was the last straw. The laws succeeded because we saw that they were a move in the right direction. People can still own firearms but they must be licensed and all guns must be registered to be legal. Guns must be stored securely and safely. You cannot travel across state borders to take advantage of weaker laws because they are the same everywhere.


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## Timewise 60+ (May 30, 2022)

Sunny said:


> You mean the part about *a well-regulated militia?*  Do you understand what those words mean, or is the concept too difficult for you to grasp?  And if you do understand what the words mean, would you say they apply to Salvador Ramos?
> 
> His mother said, "He had his reasons."  I'd like to know what reasons anyone could have had for committing such an atrocity.



Sunny, try and keep up!  You asked the question, " *I would really like to know what possible reason there could be for any civilian to own one."* * I answered that question.*  In case you were not aware our Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution talks about the right to bear arms.  The reason for that is also stated, and I quote..."A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." 

Now you know the answer to your question....right?


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## Pepper (May 30, 2022)

You speak in a very condescending manner @Timewise 60+.  It does not elevate you in the least.


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## Timewise 60+ (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Our founding fathers had no concept of automatic weapons.  They were picturing muskets, which take far too long to load to be effective in a mass shooting.  No doubt our founding fathers were mostly fine, moral men but they were insider politicians, they were not saints or prophets, and they could not see the future.


Perhaps you know little of the founding Fathers...most were exceptional in knowledge and experience for their time!  Even then it took almost 3 years to write the Constitution and all of its parts....Do your own research.  Most were not politicians, until after our government was formed, and even then, not all became politicians.  

They recognized that one of the biggest risks to any government was an internal take over by those currently in power.  The one way, they knew this could be avoided was to allow the general population to have and carry guns.  

It has worked for over 200 years...and in today's world, I thank God that our population is well armed.


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## Timewise 60+ (May 30, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You speak in a very condescending manner @Timewise 60+.  It does not elevate you in the least.


I am careful to "reply" with the same tone others post to me.....purhaps you could go back and read the post I was responding too...just a suggestion...


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## win231 (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Well, when they decided to do it in Australia they managed to peacefully confiscate 650,000 guns.
> 
> That's not as many as we have, but we do have lots of  law enforcement in every state.
> 
> ...


_"I could have that car?" _ ROFLOL!!!  _Yeah, maybe from the junk yard._
We had several gun buybacks.  They pay $50.00 for a "regular" gun & $100.00 for an "Assault Rifle."  What car would that buy?


----------



## Pepper (May 30, 2022)




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## rgp (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> Well, when they decided to do it in Australia they managed to peacefully confiscate 650,000 guns.
> 
> That's not as many as we have, but we do have lots of  law enforcement in every state.
> 
> ...




  "

"I don't know why something that so many Americans are in favor of should result in a blood bath."

Because the other [so many are against it]


"If someone can't part with their killing machine then that might be a good sign police should take it by force.

 And that is exactly where the blood-bath would begin.

Remember "stop & frisk" ? that was deemed unconstitutional   ..... and that was aimed toward suspected criminals.

Most gun owners that I have known over the years, woud never "sell" their guns back. Most can easily afford them, and will not part with them.

A car is a convience .... there if we need it ..... just like a gun. If we can "do" without one ? we can "do" without the other.


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## Sunny (May 30, 2022)

So, Timewise, according to you, "the right to bear arms" means the right to own and use, for any reason or no reason at all, any weapons of mass destruction?  Against innocent people, including children?  Just because someone is angry, or just for the hell of it?  And to live in constant fear that someone is about to break into our home, so we carry a gun around all the time, just in case?  Is that really what you think the founding fathers meant? 

And, uh, Timewise, most of us on this forum made it through 5th grade history.  We are aware that there are unfortunately times when armed revolution against tyrants is the only course. And we are also aware that weaponry has changed (just a bit?) from 18th century muskets to assault weapons and nuclear war.  If our minds aren't mired in quicksand, we recognize that our laws sometimes have to change to keep up with the times.

At one time, women were hanged for witchcraft.  Throughout the South, lynch mobs operated with impunity.  All over the country, people could be arrested for practicing homosexuality.  TV shows had to use "clean" language, and they couldn't even show a married couple sleeping in a double bed. And so on. Lots of laws have gone the way of ancient history, because life is better for the general population without them. All except anything relating to the sacred right to be armed. 

Maybe if we put aside the gun worship for a moment and look at this a different way, some sanity might creep in.  Let's say there is a deadly poison, so powerful that just a few drops could kill thousands of people. Some individual decides that getting some of that poison is just another way of "bearing arms."  So he manages to get some of it, puts a few drops in the city's water supply just for fun, and sits back to see what would happen.  He has a history of criminal behavior and/or mental illness; yet, he was able to legitimately buy that stuff just because he had a right to bear arms, and the poison was his weapon of choice.

OK with you?  Even if someone in your family, very dear to you, drank some of that water?


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## Della (May 30, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Perhaps you know little of the founding Fathers.*..most were exceptional in knowledge and experience for their time!*  Even then it took almost 3 years to write the Constitution and all of its parts....Do your own research.  Most were not politicians, until after our government was formed, and even then, not all became politicians.
> 
> They recognized that one of the biggest risks to any government was an internal take over by those currently in power.  The one way, they knew this could be avoided was to allow the general population to have and carry guns.
> 
> *It has worked for over 200 years.*..and in today's world, I thank God that our population is well armed.


"For their time," being the most important part.
Ask the people in Buffalo and Uvalde how well they think it's working.



win231 said:


> _"I could have that car?" _ ROFLOL!!!  _Yeah, maybe from the junk yard._
> We had several gun buybacks.  They pay $50.00 for a "regular" gun & $100.00 for an "Assault Rifle."  What car would that buy?


LOL Okay, perhaps I'm a bit out of touch car-wise.  My 1998 Neon might go for $200.  It looks a lot like the one Pepper posted.


----------



## StarSong (May 30, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Della is correct. Guns weren't taken from unwilling Australians. Legislation was introduced that unified the laws and regulation relating to firearms (and other lethal weapons) across all states. Some categories were banned including pump action shotguns and automatic weapons. People who owned them could hand them in and receive compensation (buyback). They were collected and destroyed. For other older weapons there was an amnesty period during which they could be voluntarily surrendered without questions being asked and these too were destroyed. Antique and other collectible items were allowed provided they were rendered unable to be fired.
> 
> Almost all weapons were subject to registration and owners needed to demonstrate the reason why they wanted the firearm. Self protection is not a legitimate reason for owning a gun but belonging into a club where target shooting is the activity will be accepted. So is eradication of vermin on rural properties. Some people require them for their job.
> 
> There were grumbles but by and large Australians had had enough of mass murders and Port Arthur was the last straw. The laws succeeded because we saw that they were a move in the right direction. People can still own firearms but they must be licensed and all guns must be registered to be legal. Guns must be stored securely and safely. You cannot travel across state borders to take advantage of weaker laws because they are the same everywhere.


Probably after some die-hard gun owners passed on, some of their heirs have turned those weapons in.


----------



## mrstime (May 30, 2022)

Ruthanne said:


> We are tired of it, damn tired and sickened.  It is the lawmakers who need to act--we elected them.


Exactly, and when you vote for 'em e-mail them and tell them why!


----------



## fuzzybuddy (May 30, 2022)

I never had a gun, and I couldn't have cared less about them.  Until a brother of a girl I knew showed up at my house. He is an idiot, a complete jackass. And everybody, who knew him, knew he was a jackass. He whipped out a gun. Two things went through my mind. One-he was going to kill me. Not in anger, but because he was a frikken jackass, and he was going to do something stupid, Two- who in the hell was that stupid to sell that jackass a gun? About a week later, the jackass was in a crowded bar, and decided to light his cigarette by shooting the tip off. So how do I know you are a "responsible" gun owner and  will never in any future incident misuse your weapon? I can't. So since I can't get rid of you, I want to get rid of the gun. The vast majority of gun deaths are the shooter himself, or someone known by the shooter.


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I never had a gun, and I couldn't have cared less about them.  Until a brother of a girl I knew showed up at my house. He is an idiot, a complete jackass. And everybody, who knew him, knew he was a jackass. He whipped out a gun. Two things went through my mind. One-he was going to kill me. Not in anger, but because he was a frikken jackass, and he was going to do something stupid, Two- who in the hell was that stupid to sell that jackass a gun? About a week later, the jackass was in a crowded bar, and decided to light his cigarette by shooting the tip off. So how do I know you are a "responsible" gun owner and  will never in any future incident misuse your weapon? I can't. So since I can't get rid of you, I want to get rid of the gun. The vast majority of gun deaths are the shooter himself, or someone known by the shooter.


The stupid acts of some morons does not justify penalizing everyone.
I won't get rid of my car because Ted Kennedy drove drunk & killed his teen-age mistress passenger.  His car has killed more people than my gun.
And I won't get a vasectomy because my neighbor has too many kids.


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2022)

Della said:


> "For their time," being the most important part.
> Ask the people in Buffalo and Uvalde how well they think it's working.
> 
> 
> LOL Okay, perhaps I'm a bit out of touch car-wise.  My 1998 Neon might go for $200.  It looks a lot like the one Pepper posted.


You have a Dodge Neon?  Hope you have a good mechanic in your family.  And please accept my deepest sympathies.


----------



## Della (May 30, 2022)

win231 said:


> You have a Dodge Neon?  Hope you have a good mechanic in your family.  And please accept my deepest sympathies.


It's in perfect condition, drives like a dream and has never given me a bit of trouble in the 24 years I've had it.


----------



## SeniorBen (May 30, 2022)

If we're going back to the original intentions of our Founding Fathers, the wording of the 2nd Amendment was no accident.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The 2nd Amendment was a collective right of states. It says it right there in the first and second phrases: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..."

That gave states — not individuals — the right to keep and bear arms. Our Founders were against a standing national military, but they supported state militias so that if our country was attacked, states militias could quickly band together and defend our country.

The 2nd Amendment has only been interpreted in the past 20 or so years as an individual right, but that interpretation doesn't make any sense if you look at the actual wording.


----------



## oldman (May 30, 2022)

StarSong said:


> So he would have timed his slaughter of innocents for recess time or immediately following school dismissal.   It doesn't take a genius to know dozens of children are milling around a school.
> 
> What about the grocery store shooting in Buffalo, or the nightclub shooting in Orlando, or the movie theater shooting in Aurora, or the outdoor shooting in Las Vegas.  We can't secure everyone behind breach proof doors every time they leave their homes.


Teachers should teach behind locked doors. When kids are out on the playground at recess time, that’s a different issue than the situation we are dealing with. Unless we are willing to build machine gun nests like prison yards have, kids will be vulnerable on the playground, but they would have the opportunity to scatter and some would be able to get far enough away to be safe, however, that wouldn’t resolve the problem.

It all goes back to taking the guns out of the hands of the crazies, but I just don’t know how we do that. Do you?


----------



## jerry old (May 30, 2022)

what is this train of though-lock the kids in prison until their grown?
But 'um in stocks until their 21, least harm come to them


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2022)

oldman said:


> Teachers should teach behind locked doors. When kids are out on the playground at recess time, that’s a different issue than the situation we are dealing with. Unless we are willing to build machine gun nests like prison yards have, kids will be vulnerable on the playground, but they would have the opportunity to scatter and some would be able to get far enough away to be safe, however, that wouldn’t resolve the problem.
> 
> It all goes back to taking the guns out of the hands of the crazies, but I just don’t know how we do that. Do you?


After a shooting at a temple/elementary school, some synagogues installed solid metal covers over the chain-link fence so kids would not be visible on the playground during recess.  That, plus locked entrance doors, plus armed security would keep kids much safer.
But most schools won't spend the money.


----------



## Lavinia (May 30, 2022)

Sunny said:


> You mean the part about *a well-regulated militia?*  Do you understand what those words mean, or is the concept too difficult for you to grasp?  And if you do understand what the words mean, would you say they apply to Salvador Ramos?
> 
> His mother said, "He had his reasons."  I'd like to know what reasons anyone could have had for committing such an atrocity.


I think that remark of his mother's says a great deal about how he has been brought up. A spoiled brat who can't deal with the word 'no'.


----------



## Ruthanne (May 30, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Exactly, and when you vote for 'em e-mail them and tell them why!


They know why we vote for them and it's very frustrating for us.  Why don't you move here and email them yourself and see where it gets you.  Very good luck to you!!  It's always easier to look at things from afar isn't it??


----------



## win231 (May 30, 2022)

Pepper said:


> View attachment 223115


The gun buyback wouldn't buy one wheel from that one.


----------



## ElCastor (May 30, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> The answer to this question is actually in the Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution...you should read it sometime!  Our founding Fathers clearly understood what was NECESSARY to maintain a government for and by the people!


I have read it. If the Second Amendment is not infringed by a ban on fully automatic rifles and hand guns, please explain why a ban on semi-automatic rifles and hand guns would be an infringement?


----------



## Shalimar (May 30, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> I think that remark of his mother's says a great deal about how he has been brought up. A spoiled brat who can't deal with the word 'no'.


Imho, blaming the parents is premature.  During my career, I have dealt with many violent offenders, often young, but never one who committed mass murder in a room of little children simply because they had been spoiled as children. Brats are not mass murderers. I would be amazed if this killer is not mentally ill. Substance abuse could be a factor also.


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I have read it. If the Second Amendment is not infringed by a ban on fully automatic rifles and hand guns, please explain why a ban on semi-automatic rifles and hand guns would be an infringement?


Some info:  Fully automatic rifles & handguns are not "banned."  They are regulated.  Legal possession in many states requires special licensing, a more-detailed background check & an expensive tax stamp:
This (regular) citizen & his family own many full-auto firearms:


----------



## Warrigal (May 31, 2022)

I now know the immensity of the problem US has when it comes to doing anything about gun violence.

I'm not suggesting that any of the people depicted in these photographs are actually dangerous but this is just surreal, and very disturbing.

(9) Joey R Johnson  on Twitter: "Former US army soldier Eric, 30, and his partner, Morgan, 22, in Lake Forest, California. https://t.co/QzctSfYhYL" / Twitter


----------



## rgp (May 31, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I now know the immensity of the problem US has when it comes to doing anything about gun violence.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that any of the people depicted in these photographs are actually dangerous but this is just surreal, and very disturbing.
> 
> (9) Joey R Johnson  on Twitter: "Former US army soldier Eric, 30, and his partner, Morgan, 22, in Lake Forest, California. https://t.co/QzctSfYhYL" / Twitter




 I am pro second amendment, but I am not a gun guy. [One pistol] for self protection should I need it ..... simply because in the case of a home invasion ...... @ 73, with pretty severe arthritis, neuropathy , etc ...... I can't defend myself like I once could.

But the folks in those photos are way over the top in gun ownership. However, they likely will never use even one in a violent manner  [hope,hope] !!

So if that is where they choose to spend their money ? I have no right to stop them . 

Only good thing  ....... they cannot shoot _*all*_ of them at the same time.


----------



## Della (May 31, 2022)

win231 said:


> The gun buyback wouldn't buy one wheel from that one.


Alright Win, give it a rest, I should have used some other example, but I don't know the price of drugs any better than the cost of cars.

I do think that if we ban guns except for people who really need them, you should be allowed to have one, because you never know when those raccoons of yours might decide to revolt.


----------



## Timewise 60+ (May 31, 2022)

Della said:


> "For their time," being the most important part.
> Ask the people in Buffalo and Uvalde how well they think it's working.
> 
> 
> LOL Okay, perhaps I'm a bit out of touch car-wise.  My 1998 Neon might go for $200.  It looks a lot like the one Pepper posted.


Della...I guess you did not know this was a *'Gun Free Zone'*!  Which limits the 'rights' outlined in our Constitution!  If I were a teacher I would 'carry' a concealed weapon.  Most all schools have former military people that are teaching, all are properly trained on the proper and safe use of firearms.  And why was there not an armed guard at this school?  Bet it was tied to 'anti-gun' attitudes with some adults involved in school policy.  When will we ever learn...?


----------



## Timewise 60+ (May 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I have read it. If the Second Amendment is not infringed by a ban on fully automatic rifles and hand guns, please explain why a ban on semi-automatic rifles and hand guns would be an infringement?


First, hand guns are NOT banned in the USA!  

You assume too much, I am not a 'died in the wool' gun activist.  I think purchasing guns before you are 21 should be the law of the land.  I also think all imitation military weapons (e.g. AR15, etc.) should be banned, as they serve no purpose. 

As you already implied the founding fathers had no concept of what future weapons would be, so the term 'infringe' is difficult to apply to specific type of weapons.  Congress has to apply some good sense here.  That being said semi-automatic weapons, handguns, and all forms of rifles used for hunting, must be left alone!  These are for personal defense...and sport & hunting.


----------



## Pepper (May 31, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> *And why was there not an armed guard at this school?  Bet it was tied to 'anti-gun' attitudes* with some adults involved in school policy.  When will we ever learn...?


Hope you didn't put too much money on your bet.  There should have been an armed guard but the armed guard was not present.  I think the guard's duties were split with other schools or he was out buying donuts but he was not there at the time.

This is Texas.  Anti gun attitudes don't apply, so please don't look for any 'woke' complainers.  There were none.


----------



## Timewise 60+ (May 31, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Hope you didn't put too much money on your bet.  There should have been an armed guard but the armed guard was not present.  I think the guard's duties were split with other schools or he was out buying donuts but he was not there at the time.
> 
> This is Texas.  Anti gun attitudes don't apply, so please don't look for any 'woke' complainers.  There were none.


Regardless, the guard was not at the school!  I win that bet!  

Worse than that, what kind of 'attitudes' did those who hired or managed this guard that allowed him/her to go for donuts or go to cover different schools, or whatever?  If I were a parent, I would be hunting that guard and who allowed him freedom to wonder!  Maybe he was just incompetent, but then whomever hired the guard owns this failure to protect the kids...

A guard that does not guard when kids are in school, is no guard!


----------



## Sunny (May 31, 2022)

> If I were a teacher I would 'carry' a concealed weapon.


Timewise, no civilized place would allow a teacher to carry a concealed weapon.  A teacher is not a secret agent in a fantasy movie.  If I had a child who had such a teacher, I would be leading a movement to have that teacher fired at once, and you can be sure that my precious child would not be in that class.

A specially trained armed guard is another story. Sadly, they may be needed in today's schools, provided they do their job and don't just stand around waiting for orders.



> I am not a 'died in the wool' gun activist.


So, you are not a dead gun activist who met his demise while wrapped in a woolen garment?  



> I think purchasing guns before you are 21 should be the law of the land.


I honestly don't understand what you mean.  You think national law should require everyone in this country to purchase a gun before the age of 21?  (Or did the little word "not" somehow get left out?)

Timewise,, maybe you should stop looking at your clock, and do some proof reading before clicking on the "post reply" button?


----------



## JaniceM (May 31, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Timewise, *no civilized place would allow a teacher to carry a concealed weapon.*  A teacher is not a secret agent in a fantasy movie.  If I had a child who had such a teacher, I would be leading a movement to have that teacher fired at once, and you can be sure that my precious child would not be in that class.


https://who13.com/news/iowa-law-all...ol-law-comes-as-a-surprise-to-teachers-union/


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I now know the immensity of the problem US has when it comes to doing anything about gun violence.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that any of the people depicted in these photographs are actually dangerous but this is just surreal, and very disturbing.
> 
> (9) Joey R Johnson  on Twitter: "Former US army soldier Eric, 30, and his partner, Morgan, 22, in Lake Forest, California. https://t.co/QzctSfYhYL" / Twitter


They're just entertaining people.  They do have a lot of money.  Reminded of Jerry Lewis.  He had hundreds of guns.


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## SeniorBen (May 31, 2022)

Here's a bit more about what the 2nd Amendment actually says:

_The historical consensus is that, for most of American history, the amendment was understood to concern the use of guns in connection with militia service. The founding fathers were likely focused on keeping state militias from being disarmed, said Joseph Blocher, who specializes in the Second Amendment at Duke University’s law school.

“An individual’s right to use guns in self defense is not expressly written in the Constitution,” said Reva Siegel, a law professor at Yale who has written prominent law review articles on the subject.

The interpretation that the Second Amendment extends to individuals’ rights to own guns only became mainstream in 2008, when the Supreme Court ruled in a landmark gun case, District of Columbia vs. Heller, that Americans have a constitutional right to own guns in their homes, knocking down D.C.'s handgun ban.

“That was the first Supreme Court decision to strike down a gun-control law in constitutional history,” Siegel said — and at the time, the court’s reading in was considered broad even to a number of conservatives.

In the ruling, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the “militia” phrase was merely a “preface” rather than part of its integral meaning. With the exception of felons, some people deemed to have serious mental illness, “sensitive places” such as schools or courthouses, or “dangerous weapons,” the Second Amendment allows regular people to own firearms in their homes, he argued.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/31/second-amendment-individual-rights/_

Sure, the Founding Fathers didn't really mean all that stuff about a militia. They were in a hurry to break for lunch, so they just threw it in there as a "preface."


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (May 31, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> https://who13.com/news/iowa-law-all...ol-law-comes-as-a-surprise-to-teachers-union/


From the link:

"The Des Moines Police Department stands behind its stance about the issue. Sgt. Paul Parizek says putting guns in teachers’ hands is a bad idea.

“It’s a skill set that diminishes. We practice all the time. It requires precision and the only way if you keep that is by training and maintain training,” he says.

Parizek points to district’s school resource officers as the ones whose first priority is protecting the school."

I agree with the DM Police Dept. Just think of a situation where a teacher accidentally leaves a gun on the desk top or in the desk drawer and a kid finds and uses it? Even cops with all their training still can't get the job done. The 19 so-called trained professionals in Stetsons had to brainstorm for almost an hour on how to takedown one 18 year old in Uvalde.


----------



## Nathan (May 31, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Agreed.  As a population we have to lose the defeatist attitude that keeps us believing politicians are all powerful and the people they represent are helpless.
> 
> 2022 could be the summer of strong gun control laws being enacted across the land. We have the power to make it so.


Well Congress has the power, but there's too many of the _opposition party _still in the Senate that will continue to stonewall any such legislation.


----------



## Nathan (May 31, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


>


No difference, both driven by fanaticism.


----------



## Becky1951 (May 31, 2022)

*"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

2 separate forms of use.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, that's one.

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.*" _*That's the second one.

The right of the people. it doesn't say the right of the militia, that was already stated as being necessary to the security of a free state. *_


----------



## mrstime (May 31, 2022)

Ruthanne said:


> They know why we vote for them and it's very frustrating for us.  Why don't you move here and email them yourself and see where it gets you.  Very good luck to you!!  It's always easier to look at things from afar isn't it??


Sorry but there is no way I would move there, too dangerous with guns everywhere.


----------



## mrstime (May 31, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> *"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> 
> 2 separate forms of use.
> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, that's one.
> ...


If they had any idea of the guns to come in the future they would never have written it that way! How about an amendment to the Constitution, banning all guns except the guns that were used in 1776.


----------



## ElCastor (May 31, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> First, hand guns are NOT banned in the USA!
> 
> You assume too much, I am not a 'died in the wool' gun activist.  I think purchasing guns before you are 21 should be the law of the land.  I also think all imitation military weapons (e.g. AR15, etc.) should be banned, as they serve no purpose.
> 
> As you already implied the founding fathers had no concept of what future weapons would be, so the term 'infringe' is difficult to apply to specific type of weapons.  Congress has to apply some good sense here.  That being said semi-automatic weapons, handguns, and all forms of rifles used for hunting, must be left alone!  These are for personal defense...and sport & hunting.


The purchase and sale of fully automatic weapons in the United States is severely restricted by law. Presumably this includes hand guns. A 9mm semi-automatic was used to kill several kids in at least one school shooting, and bump stocks which are used to make semi-automatic rifles fully automatic are currently legal thanks to a lawsuit by "gun activists". 

"Boulder, Colorado: March 22, 2021: 10 dead 
Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa bought a Ruger AR-556 pistol, a semi-automatic weapon with a capacity of up to 30 rounds, six days before the shooting at King Soopers grocery store, police said."
https://www.kcci.com/article/22-mass-shootings-374-dead-where-did-the-guns-come-from/40130537

And, a semiautomatic rifle was used in the Texas school shooting.

A six shooter worked for Wyatt Earp. It, and or my personal preference, a pump shotgun, should be sufficient for home defense, but less practical for mass murder.


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Sorry but there is no way I would move there, too dangerous with guns everywhere.


Yes, Canada is crime free.  Their Swat Team members are bored with nothing to do but eat doughnuts.     





The Regina Police task force unit is described on its website as: ‘Trained in covert entries (into a building), dynamic entries, high-risk warrant service (drug-search warrant), hostage rescue and resolving barricaded-person situations.


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> The purchase and sale of fully automatic weapons in the United States is severely restricted by law. Presumably this includes hand guns. A 9mm semi-automatic was used to kill several kids in at least one school shooting, and bump stocks which are used to make semi-automatic rifles fully automatic are currently legal thanks to a lawsuit by "gun activists".
> 
> "Boulder, Colorado: March 22, 2021: 10 dead
> Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa bought a Ruger AR-556 pistol, a semi-automatic weapon with a capacity of up to 30 rounds, six days before the shooting at King Soopers grocery store, police said."
> ...


Of course.  There is no reason to arrest or prosecute any murderer who uses a gun.  It's not the criminals' fault; it's the gun's fault.
Guns have the power to turn decent people into murderers.


----------



## ohioboy (May 31, 2022)

The analysis used to apply an individual right was a legal distinction between the Prefatory Clause and the Operative Clause.

Syllabus from Heller:

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.


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## rgp (May 31, 2022)

Just heard on the news ....... Now they say the _*door *_was not propped open. It was closed but not locked !

Exactly why we should not judge too soon.


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde Independent School District police force are no longer cooperating with the Texas Department of Public Safety's investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary School and the state's review of the law enforcement response, multiple law enforcement sources tell ABC News.
A spokesman for Texas DPS, which is running the state's investigations, declined to comment.
According to sources, the decision to stop cooperating occurred soon after the director of DPS, Col. Steven McCraw, held a news conference Friday during which he said the delayed police entry into the classroom was "the wrong decision" and contrary to protocol.
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/uvalde-police-school-district-no-211000417.html


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## mrstime (May 31, 2022)

win231 said:


> Yes, Canada is crime free.  Their Swat Team members are bored with nothing to do but eat doughnuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We aren't crime free but we do have good gun laws. We have had very few mass shootings. The worst was "The École Polytechnique massacre, also known as the Montreal massacre, was a *1989 * antifeminist mass shooting at the École Polytechnique de Montréal in Montreal, Quebec. Fourteen women were murdered; 10 further women and four men were injured."


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## ElCastor (May 31, 2022)

win231 said:


> Of course.  There is no reason to arrest or prosecute any murderer who uses a gun.  It's not the criminals' fault; it's the gun's fault.
> Guns have the power to turn decent people into murderers.


Too late to arrest the Uvalde murderer, he's dead, along with his 22 victims, but then he wanted to be dead. Hmmm, had he not been able to buy an assault rifle that didn't exist, maybe some, or all, of his victims would have lived to celebrate Memorial Day. Oh, by the way, it looks like the manufacturer of that rifle is in your camp, and would most likely applaud your post.
"The gunmaker whose rifle was used in Uvalde shooting reportedly runs direct-to-consumer ads aimed at younger buyers"
https://news.yahoo.com/gunmaker-whose-rifle-used-uvalde-105051653.html


----------



## Don M. (May 31, 2022)

The fact that the local Uvalde police have stopped cooperating with the investigations is a pretty obvious admission that they screwed up, big time, in the handling of this shooting.


----------



## win231 (May 31, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Too late to arrest the Uvalde murderer, he's dead, along with his 22 victims, but then he wanted to be dead. Hmmm, had he not been able to buy an assault rifle that didn't exist, maybe some, or all, of his victims would have lived to celebrate Memorial Day. Oh, by the way, it looks like the manufacturer of that rifle is in your camp, and would most likely applaud your post.
> "The gunmaker whose rifle was used in Uvalde shooting reportedly runs direct-to-consumer ads aimed at younger buyers"
> https://news.yahoo.com/gunmaker-whose-rifle-used-uvalde-105051653.html


I'm not so sure he wanted to be dead.  People who want to be dead don't wear body armor.


----------



## dseag2 (May 31, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You speak in a very condescending manner @Timewise 60+.  It does not elevate you in the least.


So true.


----------



## dseag2 (May 31, 2022)

Sunny said:


> So, Timewise, according to you, "the right to bear arms" means the right to own and use, for any reason or no reason at all, any weapons of mass destruction?  Against innocent people, including children?  Just because someone is angry, or just for the hell of it?  And to live in constant fear that someone is about to break into our home, so we carry a gun around all the time, just in case?  Is that really what you think the founding fathers meant?
> 
> And, uh, Timewise, most of us on this forum made it through 5th grade history.  We are aware that there are unfortunately times when armed revolution against tyrants is the only course. And we are also aware that weaponry has changed (just a bit?) from 18th century muskets to assault weapons and nuclear war.  If our minds aren't mired in quicksand, we recognize that our laws sometimes have to change to keep up with the times.
> 
> ...


Well said @Sunny.


----------



## dseag2 (May 31, 2022)

win231 said:


> And I won't get a vasectomy because my neighbor has too many kids.


If you ever do get a vasectomy I want the full story.  Because, as we say in the South...


----------



## Warrigal (May 31, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> https://who13.com/news/iowa-law-all...ol-law-comes-as-a-surprise-to-teachers-union/


Interesting read, especially the bit about the necessity for continuous training and practice to maintain precision. Also the bit about armed teachers having to be authorised by the education authorities. Lastly, the fact that the teachers know nothing about it.


----------



## Warrigal (May 31, 2022)

mrstime said:


> We aren't crime free but we do have good gun laws. We have had very few mass shootings. The worst was "The École Polytechnique massacre, also known as the Montreal massacre, was a *1989 * antifeminist mass shooting at the École Polytechnique de Montréal in Montreal, Quebec. Fourteen women were murdered; 10 further women and four men were injured."


You could say much the same about Australia. We are certainly not crime free and we have our fair share of people suffering from mental illness. We also have the occasional radicalised fanatic intent on murder but the last massacre occurred in 1996. 

What changed? The laws did.
Guess which laws made the difference?


----------



## ElCastor (May 31, 2022)

win231 said:


> I'm not so sure he wanted to be dead.  People who want to be dead don't wear body armor.


He couldn't have had a long and happy life in mind when he shot his grandmother in the face before setting out for the school. Perhaps he wore the body armor to lengthen and maximize his killing spree at the school.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 1, 2022)

He was not wearing body armor, just a vest to hold his ammo.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 1, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Interesting read, especially the bit about the necessity for continuous training and practice to maintain precision. Also the bit about armed teachers having to be authorised by the education authorities. Lastly, the fact that the teachers know nothing about it.


Yes, they have a type of continuing-education classes, too.. it's not just a matter of graduate and that's all there is to it.


----------



## Liberty (Jun 1, 2022)

This is where the killer bought his guns.  Notice that you can't "shop guns" right now.  Its a restaurant!  There is a lot to this story that can come out if the surface is scratched.

https://oasisoutback.com/


----------



## oldman (Jun 1, 2022)

My wife was a senior Professor at Georgetown University in Washington D.C. She was also the head of her department. 

Probably at least once a year, she would tell me about a student getting kicked off campus because he either had a gun on his person or in his dorm room. I never understood why it wasn’t in the newspaper, so I asked the one reporter who always hung around the airport why that was. He said that it had to do with politics. I never quite understood what he was trying to tell me.


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jun 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> The purchase and sale of fully automatic weapons in the United States is severely restricted by law. Presumably this includes hand guns. A 9mm semi-automatic was used to kill several kids in at least one school shooting, and bump stocks which are used to make semi-automatic rifles fully automatic are currently legal thanks to a lawsuit by "gun activists".
> 
> "Boulder, Colorado: March 22, 2021: 10 dead
> Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa bought a Ruger AR-556 pistol, a semi-automatic weapon with a capacity of up to 30 rounds, six days before the shooting at King Soopers grocery store, police said."
> ...


You still seem confused, I responded to your earlier comment that hand guns were banned in the USA.  They are not!  Everything else you said is well known by all who follow this topic!  Nuff Said!


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jun 1, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> If we're going back to the original intentions of our Founding Fathers, the wording of the 2nd Amendment was no accident.
> 
> "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
> 
> ...


Ben, the reason the 'interpretation' has changed is that we now know that even our State politicians can be corrupted and collude with Congress...therefore it is up to the individual to be prepared!  This seems to be more relevant each year...


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jun 1, 2022)

Sunny said:


> So, Timewise, according to you, "the right to bear arms" means the right to own and use, for any reason or no reason at all, any weapons of mass destruction?  Against innocent people, including children?  Just because someone is angry, or just for the hell of it?  And to live in constant fear that someone is about to break into our home, so we carry a gun around all the time, just in case?  Is that really what you think the founding fathers meant?
> 
> And, uh, Timewise, most of us on this forum made it through 5th grade history.  We are aware that there are unfortunately times when armed revolution against tyrants is the only course. And we are also aware that weaponry has changed (just a bit?) from 18th century muskets to assault weapons and nuclear war.  If our minds aren't mired in quicksand, we recognize that our laws sometimes have to change to keep up with the times.
> 
> ...


Sunny, you make up a lot of stories to try and justify your comments.  I prefer to stick with the relevant facts, like the second amendment to the U. S. Constitution. You can debate the meaning, but it still stands strong protecting our rights.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 1, 2022)

In my opinion, the gun issue is only part of it..  what should also be going on is finding out the reason or reasons there's been such an upswing in anger, hatred, 'gotta-get-somebody' violence.  

On any topic, I believe it's impossible to start resolving problems without learning the cause.


----------



## Della (Jun 1, 2022)

Liberty said:


> This is where the killer bought his guns.  Notice that you can't "shop guns" right now.  Its a restaurant!  There is a lot to this story that can come out if the surface is scratched.
> 
> https://oasisoutback.com/


I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the idea of getting something to eat, a pretty scarf and a gun all at the same place.
---------------------

@Timewise -- Remember that amendment that said we weren't allowed to sell, buy or drink alcohol?  Remember what happened there?  Amendments can be repealed, they weren't written by God and carved in stone.  Stop worshiping them.


----------



## oldman (Jun 1, 2022)

I’m sticking with my original post. All schools should be single entry and be impenetrable. I think adding a cop or two for security would also be a help. Depending on the size of the school, it may be necessary to have as many as three officers on duty in the schools.

I can’t think of a single way to give or guarantee schoolchildren 100% protection throughout the school day. I would really like to know why this shooter picked an elementary school and also where he got the money to buy his over $6000 of weapons and ammo he had, according to the BBC on Sirius-XM radio.


----------



## StarSong (Jun 1, 2022)

oldman said:


> I’m sticking with my original post. All schools should be single entry and be impenetrable. I think adding a cop or two for security would also be a help. Depending on the size of the school, it may be necessary to have as many as three officers on duty in the schools.
> 
> I can’t think of a single way to give or guarantee schoolchildren 100% protection throughout the school day. I would really like to know why this shooter picked an elementary school and also w*here he got the money to buy his over $6000 of weapons and ammo *he had, according to the BBC on Sirius-XM radio.


He may have charged the purchases on a credit card, figuring he wouldn't be around when the bill came due.    

Few cities and towns have sufficient budgets to cover one or two or three sworn officers on duty at every school.  And where do we stop?  "Soft targets" are everywhere.  How about cops at every  post office during the pre-Christmas mailing rush?  Or monitoring stores and malls that have doorbuster Black Friday sales?  

An obvious first step is to stop arming ordinary citizens with weapons of war.


----------



## Jules (Jun 1, 2022)

win231 said:


> Uvalde Independent School District police force are no longer cooperating


Thinking about the lawsuits that they’ll be facing.



StarSong said:


> Few cities and towns have sufficient budgets to cover one or two or three sworn officers on duty at every school.


And what quality of security are they going to get?


----------



## Chet (Jun 1, 2022)

Della said:


> I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the idea of getting something to eat, a pretty scarf and a gun all at the same place.
> ---------------------
> 
> @Timewise -- Remember that amendment that said we weren't allowed to sell, buy or drink alcohol?  Remember what happened there? * Amendments can be* *repealed, they weren't written by God and carved in stone.*  Stop worshiping them.


In a way, the first ten amendments, including the second amendment *are* carved in stone,. They are the Bill of *Rights*.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 1, 2022)

Chet said:


> In a way, the first ten amendments *are* carved in stone,. They are the Bill of *Rights*.


Allegedly so were the 10 Commandments.. but I don't see many people taking those seriously.


----------



## StarSong (Jun 1, 2022)

Jules said:


> And what quality of security are they going to get?


Speaking just of LAPD, police are spread mighty thin these days.  I happen to live in a fairly low crime area.  On the rare occasions when DH or I see an LAPD cruiser pass our house we speculate whether the cop might be lost.


----------



## JB in SC (Jun 1, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> The purchase and sale of fully automatic weapons in the United States is severely restricted by law. Presumably this includes hand guns. A 9mm semi-automatic was used to kill several kids in at least one school shooting, and bump stocks which are used to make semi-automatic rifles fully automatic are currently legal thanks to a lawsuit by "gun activists".
> 
> "Boulder, Colorado: March 22, 2021: 10 dead
> Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa bought a Ruger AR-556 pistol, a semi-automatic weapon with a capacity of up to 30 rounds, six days before the shooting at King Soopers grocery store, police said."
> ...



Full auto firearms are expensive, manufacturing of new ones was banned in 1986. A full auto M-16 sells for upwards of $20,000.  The permit to own costs $200 subject an FBI background check with fingerprints. It's really not much different than a regular gun purchase but it does usually take 90 days or so. The chief law enforcement officer of the county or city of residence has to approve or deny the permit. In some cases a Trust is used to keep the firearm in the family and allow inherited full autos to pass to heirs (all have passed the same permit process). Trusts are not subject to the chief law enforcement officer's approval.

Suppressors, SBR, AOW (short barrel rifles/ shotguns) utilize the same permit process. In the UK suppressors are commonly used and not restricted. Primarily to keep the sound levels down to avoid disturbing the neighbors, night hunting is perfectly legal as well.


----------



## ElCastor (Jun 1, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> You still seem confused, I responded to your earlier comment that hand guns were banned in the USA.  They are not!  Everything else you said is well known by all who follow this topic!  Nuff Said!


Huh? I NEVER said that hand guns were banned in the USA -- as in NEVER! Why would I? Clearly they are not. I was referring to Fully Automatic hand guns and rifles, and lest you accuse me of claiming rifles are banned in the USA, let me re-phrase -- fully automatic hand guns and fully automatic rifles. BTW, I have since learned that even fully automatics can be owned in the USA, but only under very unusual circumstances.


----------



## Buckeye (Jun 1, 2022)

Della said:


> *I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the idea of getting something to eat, a pretty scarf and a gun all at the same place.*
> ---------------------
> 
> @Timewise -- Remember that amendment that said we weren't allowed to sell, buy or drink alcohol?  Remember what happened there?  Amendments can be repealed, they weren't written by God and carved in stone.  Stop worshiping them.


Until recently, many Walmarts in rural areas sold guns and ammunition.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Chet said:


> Let's remember that in the vast majority of American schools, there were no shootings and kids attended and came home safely. I see a school bus pick up kids on the corner of my street and everything is fine.


Thank you.
Also,  remember that a few decades ago there weren't so many , if any, shootings, and in or about 2005 it was "in the news" that ALL of the shootings the previous 'x' number of years were by people who had been seeing a cyborg .... oops... psykiatris,  sorry for the 'mis'spelling ,  and were on or had stopped taking DRUGS/ prescription mind altering medications.   None of the shootings apparently, at least in the news,  were by anyone healthy minded and not on any mind altering medications.  
Some, at least, if not all,  the shootings since then likewise,  although a lot of money and power was exercised to prevent this from being broadcast, apparently.  The powerful cartel of drug makers and promoters is very dangerous and more powerful than almost anyone seems to realize ?


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Allegedly so were the 10 Commandments.. but I don't see many people taking those seriously.


I think the Word the Creator Gave/Gives Clearly Shows that most people never stop serving the enemy - to put it too politely.    
Some people used to refer to the "Commandments" as "Instructions",  as the Creator gave them for Instructing the children daily,  as many as would believe,  which has always been few,  not many ever, comparatively.
One "new" instruction, if you will, in the NT,  "be harmless as doves".   
It's possible that not even one person in a thousand or more knows this experientially.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 9, 2022)

Chet said:


> In a way, the first ten amendments, including the second amendment *are* carved in stone,. They are the Bill of *Rights*.


Rights can also be safeguarded by legislation. Australia doesn't have a Bill of Rights but we are hardly a down trodden, oppressed people and we don't live in a toxic gun culture where children are slaughtered in their classrooms. 

The effect of the constitutional interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is nothing less than a human rights disaster for unarmed innocents and peaceful citizens.

I am always amazed that so many US citizens are unable to see the social consequences of having a Bill of Rights written in the days of horse and buggies and flint lock rifles.

This is a *list of infantry weapons used in the American Revolutionary War*.

1American weapons
1.1Brown Bess
1.2Long rifles
1.3Bayonet

2British Infantry Weapons
2.1Rifles/Muskets
2.1.1Pattern 1776 Infantry Rifle
2.1.2Ferguson rifle
2.1.3Brown Bess Musket


3French Weapons
3.1Charleville musket

4Native American weapons
4.1Tomahawk


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## Buckeye (Jun 9, 2022)

Gee, I am an American citizen, and yes I can see the consequences of the 2nd amendment.  They are freedom and safety for us and for our children and grandchildren.  Without the 2nd amendment, we would have already lost the rest of them.

As Mao Zedong said  "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".


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## Pepper (Jun 9, 2022)

@Just Jeff 
You're "Jeff Elohim" aren't you?  Yes, you must be.


----------



## Shalimar (Jun 9, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Thank you.
> Also,  remember that a few decades ago there weren't so many , if any, shootings, and in or about 2005 it was "in the news" that ALL of the shootings the previous 'x' number of years were by people who had been seeing a cyborg .... oops... psykiatris,  sorry for the 'mis'spelling ,  and were on or had stopped taking DRUGS/ prescription mind altering medications.   None of the shootings apparently, at least in the news,  were by anyone healthy minded and not on any mind altering medications.
> Some, at least, if not all,  the shootings since then likewise,  although a lot of money and power was exercised to prevent this from being broadcast, apparently.  The powerful cartel of drug makers and promoters is very dangerous and more powerful than almost anyone seems to realize ?


You are not sorry in the least, but rather disruptive for a brand new member. Not fond of mental health professionals? Lol. Handy scapegoats. Have a nice day, and welcome to ignore.


----------



## oldman (Jun 9, 2022)

StarSong said:


> Speaking just of LAPD, police are spread mighty thin these days.  I happen to live in a fairly low crime area.  On the rare occasions when DH or I see an LAPD cruiser pass our house we speculate whether the cop might be lost.


Same in our area. We see a cop patrol through our area maybe once every few months. Of course, we live in a gated community so that probably makes a difference. A few years back, we had a young man, 23 I think, scale the wall and robbed three homes that were vacant due to the owners being in Florida at the time.


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## Chet (Jun 9, 2022)

2nd Amendment: Original Meaning and Purpose​"When the Constitution was signed on September 17, 1787, federalists claimed the new government would only have limited powers expressly delegated to it. This wasn’t enough for anti-federalists like George Mason, who wanted explicit guarantees to certain rights in order to prevent any potential encroachment by the federal government.

One of them was the right to keep and bear arms. Mason wrote:



> “A well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free State”



The Founding Fathers, having just broken away from Great Britain, understood the new federal government they were ratifying might one day become just as tyrannical. If it had the authority to control citizen access to firearms, then it could disarm them, just as the British attempted to do. This would make any attempts to restore liberties futile.

The Second Amendment was specifically included in the Bill of Rights to prevent this."

https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2014/09/22/2nd-amendment-original-meaning-and-purpose/


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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 9, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> I have read it. If the Second Amendment is not infringed by a ban on fully automatic rifles and hand guns, please explain why a ban on semi-automatic rifles and hand guns would be an infringement?


If you were a hunter, you would already understand this!  Especially, if you hunt migrating birds...


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jun 9, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Timewise, no civilized place would allow a teacher to carry a concealed weapon.  A teacher is not a secret agent in a fantasy movie.  If I had a child who had such a teacher, I would be leading a movement to have that teacher fired at once, and you can be sure that my precious child would not be in that class.


Guess you never had a teacher who had been in the military!  You know, the place where men and women are trained to use weapons to defend our country!  They all would be good teachers to carry a concealed weapon...


Sunny said:


> Timewise,, maybe you should stop looking at your clock, and do some proof reading before clicking on the "post reply" button?  Some of us actually have a life beyond this forum...SMILE!


----------



## Jackie23 (Jun 9, 2022)

After all the discussions and years of mass shootings with the same results I have to agree with others that this needs to become a top priority voting issue, the sooner the better.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 9, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Guess you never had a teacher who had been in the military!  You know, the place where men and women are trained to use weapons to defend our country!  They all would be good teachers to carry a concealed weapon...


Not if they are carrying psychological scars (PTSD) from their military service.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> After all the discussions and years of mass shootings with the same results I have to agree with others that this needs to become a top priority voting issue, the sooner the better.


So then,  apparently you believe the government can somehow make things better instead of worse ?   

Other than having local or other law enforcement officers present in areas to "keep the peace",  could you refer to or mention one or more things the government actually helped when they put the government hand in to control it ?


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Rights can also be safeguarded by legislation. Australia doesn't have a Bill of Rights but we are hardly a down trodden, oppressed people and we don't live in a toxic gun culture where children are slaughtered in their classrooms.


I'm not there, never been, so have only had personal reports/ published reports concerning Australia the last 2.5 years to see what may be going on there.
It has not looked good according to "oppressed" people concerned with the governments actions there.   (Sanctions, shutdowns, arrests ,  imprisonment or isolation for large groups,  without evidence of any of this helping at all)  So what have you seen about all this , there ?


----------



## ElCastor (Jun 9, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> If you were a hunter, you would already understand this!  Especially, if you hunt migrating birds...


My dad was a pheasant hunter and owned a semi-auto shotgun. Nice weapon, but a double barrel or pump would do. If that doesn't work for you, too bad. Personally, I feed birds, I don't hunt them.


----------



## rgp (Jun 9, 2022)

Shalimar said:


> You are not sorry in the least, but rather disruptive for a brand new member. Not fond of mental health professionals? Lol. Handy scapegoats. Have a nice day, and welcome to ignore.


Taking the Osterich approach on this one I see. 

Do you just put everyone on ignore when they disagree with you ? 

Yeah now there's a mature intelligent way to discuss a topic.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 9, 2022)

Only a sadistic maniac needs an AR 15 to kill a rabbit.  Someone who likes to blow things up, obviously.


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> My dad was a pheasant hunter and owned a semi-auto shotgun. Nice weapon, but a double barrel or pump would do. If that doesn't work for you, too bad. Personally, I feed birds, I don't hunt them.


I don't hunt either.  But actually, anyone who eats chicken or turkey contributes to killing birds.  And anyone who eats beef, lamb, or pork contributes to killing cows, lambs & pigs.  And these animals are not roaming free; they're kept cramped in small areas & die a painful death.  Not much difference, is there?


----------



## Pepper (Jun 9, 2022)

win231 said:


> I don't hunt either.  But actually, anyone who eats chicken or turkey contributes to killing birds.  Not much difference, is there?


If birds are killed for food, that's one thing.  If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If birds are killed for food, that's one thing.  If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?


Hunters are supposed to kill for food.  Some probably don't.  That doesn't mean there's a difference.  Killed is killed.
But then again, food animals should be killed humanely, & they aren't kept or killed humanely.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

win231 said:


> I don't hunt either.  But actually, anyone who eats chicken or turkey contributes to killing birds.  Not much difference, is there?


First thought, right or wrong or whatever ....   most people may not or do not contribute to making medicines(synthetic)  , and medicine is one of the leading causes of death for the last 50 years at least ,  so is there a difference ?  Are they 'responsible' at all for the deaths of people from medicine, even if they never saw them nor made the medicine,  but only silently went along with the corporations making the drugs ?


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

rgp said:


> Taking the Osterich approach on this one I see.
> 
> Do you just put everyone on ignore when they disagree with you ?
> 
> Yeah now there's a mature intelligent way to discuss a topic.


I think it is more peaceful and helpful if they ignore me and perhaps also ignore others they disagree with too.  

It just might be the most mature way for 'us' others to discuss a topic without too much angst(or whatever the right word is).


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 9, 2022)

win231 said:


> I don't hunt either.  But actually, anyone who eats chicken or turkey contributes to killing birds.  Not much difference, is there?


Not singling you out with this specifically, but as (not sure of term) those weapons have become legal here for deer hunting, one of the local news guys said they have a range of more than 2 miles...  so it's not a matter of 'if' innocent people end up getting killed, but 'when.'


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 9, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If birds are killed for food, that's one thing.  If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?


I had a relative who hunted pheasants, deer, etc., AND it was only for food...  but all it took was one of his friends accidentally dying in a hunting accident (by the guy's own gun) that caused the relative and all of his hunting friends to start hunting by bow.  Nobody needs those other types of guns to shoot birds, deer, etc., it's just plain idiotic.


----------



## ElCastor (Jun 9, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If birds are killed for food, that's one thing.  If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?


There is usually a food aspect, but also an element of sport and enjoyment of the kill. I was at one time a very active decoy collector. While I was never a hunter, I knew a lot who were. Some were rural and did it to keep food on the table, while others were not rural and did it more for the "sport", as in a kind of entertainment, getting outdoors, etc. You could compare it to various aspects of fishing -- some meat on the table, but for many a reason to get out into nature and experience the thrill of catching a big fish, or unfortunately, killing a bird. As I said, my wife and I feed birds -- everything from sparrows to crows and woodpeckers.


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## SeniorBen (Jun 9, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Only a sadistic maniac needs an AR 15 to kill a rabbit.  Someone who likes to blow things up, obviously.


Several of the children murdered in the Uvalde massacre were decapitated by the AR-15 bullets. Nobody needs that much firepower outside of a war battle.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 9, 2022)

I know that @SeniorBen.  Can anything be more troubling than that?  Can't think of anything.


----------



## SeniorBen (Jun 9, 2022)

win231 said:


> Hunters are supposed to kill for food.  Some probably don't.  That doesn't mean there's a difference.  Killed is killed.
> But then again, food animals should be killed humanely, & they aren't kept or killed humanely.


Yep, factory farms should be outlawed. Doing so would increase the price of meat, though, and will add to inflation.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Die or Live ,  Dramatic Comparison often ignored or overlooked (and not counting many more murders not listed here) > 
https://time.com/6182856/children-gun-deaths-mass-shootings/
"On average, 1,200 children a year die by suicide with a gun. Another 130 children and teens per year die from unintentional shootings.

 On average, fewer than 35 children and teens are killed as a result of mass shootings a year—even though, for obvious and good reasons, those tragedies often receive lots of attention."


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Not singling you out with this specifically, but as (not sure of term) those weapons have become legal here for deer hunting, one of the local news guys said they have a range of more than 2 miles...  so it's not a matter of 'if' innocent people end up getting killed, but 'when.'


"Local News Guys" are ignorant about firearms - and other subjects.  They can only repeat what they're told to report - including whatever is sensational.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 9, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> I'm not there, never been, so have only had personal reports/ published reports concerning Australia the last 2.5 years to see what may be going on there.
> It has not looked good according to "oppressed" people concerned with the governments actions there.   (Sanctions, shutdowns, arrests ,  imprisonment or isolation for large groups,  without evidence of any of this helping at all)  So what have you seen about all this , there ?


I assume that you are referring to how our respective governments dealt with Covid 19
These facts are my evidence that the measures taken in Australia did save many lives.
Our per capita death toll from Covid has been less than 1% of that of the freedom loving USA
Correction - that last sentence should have read: "Our per capita death toll from Covid has been *less than 10%* of that of the freedom loving USA".

Australia:
Confirmed cases (absolute) 5,756,791
Confirmed deaths (absolute) 7,052
Population (in millions)  25.69
Deaths per million 274.54


USA:
Confirmed cases (absolute) 80,442,894
Confirmed deaths (absolute) 986,896
Population (in millions)  329.48
Deaths per million 2,995.28

Source • COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista

The same picture emerges when looking at deaths by firearm and that is exactly how we like it.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 9, 2022)

Just like "fake news" a few years ago, 
"fake statistics" today.   We learned decades ago in h.s. and college that statistics can be made to show whatever is wanted to be shown,  instead of the truth.   The governments and political, financial and medical powers in place refust the truth - they won't tell it, and they won't protect it, and they squish any one when they can who speaks truth to power.


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## Blessed (Jun 9, 2022)

This thread has gone of topic I think, see the OP post.


----------



## dseag2 (Jun 9, 2022)

rgp said:


> Taking the Osterich approach on this one I see.
> 
> Do you just put everyone on ignore when they disagree with you ?
> 
> Yeah now there's a mature intelligent way to discuss a topic.


Yes, tell us about the mature intelligent way to discuss a topic.  You seem to be the expert!    And it's Ostrich, by the way.  Did your spellcheck not work?


----------



## rgp (Jun 10, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> I think it is more peaceful and helpful if they ignore me and perhaps also ignore others they disagree with too.
> 
> It just might be the most mature way for 'us' others to discuss a topic without too much angst(or whatever the right word is).



 That's my point ........ it is not a discussion if they just ignore the people that have not agreed with them in the past . Their mind is not even open to an alternative opinion/thought. That tells me that they think they are correct in every way, and any opposition , counter point will not be heard and /or considered.

It has sort of a _*take my ball and go home ring to it" .*_..... hence lack of maturity.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 10, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> I think it is more peaceful and helpful if they ignore me and perhaps also ignore others they disagree with too.


You mean like you're ignored on that other forum, *Jeff Elohim*?  Distraught to see you here, but it's really none of my business.  Take over.  Carry on.


----------



## Sassycakes (Jun 10, 2022)

Reading this again still makes me cry. I don't understand why the police didn't go into the school. They were armed and their job is to protect those in danger. Even if they saved only a few lives things would have come out better.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 10, 2022)

rgp said:


> That's my point ........ it is not a discussion if they just ignore the people that have not agreed with them in the past . Their mind is not even open to an alternative opinion/thought. That tells me that they think they are correct in every way, and any opposition , counter point will not be heard and /or considered.
> 
> It has sort of a _*take my ball and go home ring to it" .*_..... hence lack of maturity.


Somewhat.
When wards/or subjects/ of the state or medical cartel confront someone it is not as if they want to discuss something at all. 
i.e. It's just distracting and deceiving the more they post the more they show the errors of their cartel/group/choice/whatever,  but it's not leading to anything helpful and they won't change, or rarely.  Others might benefit, true, but I don't think it's really helpful whenever anyone anywhere has been so conditioned by 'political correctness' that they only repeat the errors instead of questioning them and seeking what's good and right and true.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 10, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> Reading this again still makes me cry. I don't understand why the police didn't go into the school. They were armed and their job is to protect those in danger. Even if they saved only a few lives things would have come out better.


That may be a good point ,  and can you remember a good example where action was taken locally or nationally or in other country ?


----------



## rgp (Jun 10, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> Reading this again still makes me cry. I don't understand why the police didn't go into the school. They were armed and their job is to protect those in danger. Even if they saved only a few lives things would have come out better.



 Actually ..........

  "Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that *police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens*. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent."

 I really hope you believe me when I say I understand your emotion but ....... I did some looking and there are many sites that state the above, in various ways.

It is easy for all of us to say .......... _well if I had been there id'a gone in with my gun , and performed in this way or that way ....... I'd a taken that SOB out & saved as many kids as i could have . _Yeah well, maybe we would have , but more likely we would not have. 

It is always very easy to be brave ...... when not actually confronted/involved. Always easy to "Monday morning quarterback" 

 It needs to be said, so I'll say it........

  Those police officers wanted to go home to their families , just as much as the other families wanted their kids to come home to them.

Do we really want to promote tradng one life for another ? I don't. 

Yes  i know the police had a better "fighting" chance than did those kids but ...... Since I do not know all the facts and was not there , I'll refrain from judgement.

I am so very sorry that even one child lost one drop of blood , but my after the fact railing won't change that, hating the police won't either. 

And perhaps the worst thing is ....... I really have no idea how and stop it from happening again. 

 Hate me if you choose ......... I've reached the age where I really don't care anylonger.


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## Pepper (Jun 10, 2022)

"Those police officers wanted to go home to their families , just as much as the other families wanted their kids to come home to them."

If their own lives come before the public they should seek other employment.  Totally useless.  It's like they were defunded or something.

Uvalde's local government is corrupt.


----------



## rgp (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> "Those police officers wanted to go home to their families , just as much as the other families wanted their kids to come home to them."
> 
> If their own lives come before the public they should seek other employment.  Totally useless.  It's like they were defunded or something.
> 
> Uvalde's local government is corrupt.



 OK, are you going to take their place ? Everyone's *"OWN"* life is the most important .

 Anyone that says other, is either a mental case or a liar.

 I know nothing about Uvalde's government, so no comment.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 10, 2022)

rgp said:


> OK,* are you going to take their place ?* Everyone's *"OWN"* life is the most important .
> 
> Anyone that says other, is either a mental case or a liar.
> 
> I know nothing about Uvalde's government, so no comment.


Am I going to take their place?  Of course, what better thing to do than to hire a 72 year old woman. However, I can hide and be a coward too.  No one made these folks cops.  They chose to be cops.  As a working woman I sold crotchless panties among other things.  I didn't choose cop work.


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Am I going to take their place?  Of course, what better thing to do than to hire a 72 year old woman. However, I can hide and be a coward too.  No one made these folks cops.  They chose to be cops.  As a working woman I sold crotchless panties among other things.  I didn't choose cop work.




   Did you read what i posted, in post #496 ?



"Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that *police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens*. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent."


 Your past employment does sound interesting though .......


----------



## Pepper (Jun 10, 2022)

Yes, I read your post and looked up the case @rgp.  I doubt cops know it though, or have it in mind.  Case said "protect" the community, though.  The school was a community school.  Case said "protect" the government--a school is a government entity.

Generally, people who become cops do so out of a desire to do good, not to do nothing.  Don't become a cop if your heart isn't in the work.  Ex cons would have stood their ground that day.  Maybe hire protection from gangs instead, if cops won't do it.  However, this has never been an issue in national attention.  This kind of thing I don't think happened before.  I don't know.

Yes, I had interesting times in my various careers!


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## rgp (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Yes, I read your post and looked up the case @rgp.  I doubt cops know it though, or have it in mind.  Case said "protect" the community, though.  The school was a community school.  Case said "protect" the government--a school is a government entity.
> 
> Generally, people who become cops do so out of a desire to do good, not to do nothing.  Don't become a cop if your heart isn't in the work.  Ex cons would have stood their ground that day.  Maybe hire protection from gangs instead, if cops won't do it.  However, this has never been an issue in national attention.  This kind of thing I don't think happened before.  I don't know.
> 
> Yes, I had interesting times in my various careers!




 " Case said "protect" the government--a school is a government entity."

  The paragraph I posted said ......

  "*police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens*. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect"

 It never mentioned 'government'


----------



## Pepper (Jun 10, 2022)

*"In particular*, it reasoned that a provision that gave police officers qualified immunity in connection with their enforcement of restraining orders.......but rather examined the statute’s text and legislative history and distinguished arguably relevant Colorado case law."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/04-278

It's been many years since I read legal documents.  Perhaps @WheatenLover could see this and interpret it for me.  I worked in Family Court as a Paralegal but I don't remember much.  I'd have to study it.  I wish I wanted to............


----------



## ohioboy (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> *"In particular*, it reasoned that a provision that gave police officers qualified immunity in connection with their enforcement of restraining orders.......but rather examined the statute’s text and legislative history and distinguished arguably relevant Colorado case law."
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/04-278
> 
> It's been many years since I read legal documents.  Perhaps @WheatenLover could see this and interpret it for me.  I worked in Family Court as a Paralegal but I don't remember much.  I'd have to study it.  I wish I wanted to............


The case cited is simply a recitation of law that there is no federal constitutional "Duty to protect", unless, as I have stated before, a "Special relationship" is established. The question is, is a SR established when police respond to a call, are on the premises, and are aware a shooter is inside? Does that create a "Duty to protect/rescue"? Lawyers will be analyzing this.

Now, that is federal constitutional law. A State is free to enact laws such as duty to protect, or like Ohio has, Dereliction of Duty.

This may help?

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/l...y-and-the-special-relationship-doctrine-38303


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## Warrigal (Jun 10, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Just like "fake news" a few years ago,
> "fake statistics" today.   We learned decades ago in h.s. and college that statistics can be made to show whatever is wanted to be shown,  instead of the truth.   The governments and political, financial and medical powers in place refust the truth - they won't tell it, and they won't protect it, and they squish any one when they can who speaks truth to power.


And I taught the same lesson to my Year 8 maths classes, except that we looked at how statistical data can be misrepresented graphically. I am not so naive as to believe every bit of nonsense dressed up as statistics, but properly collected data by reputable agencies can be relied on to give a true picture of whatever is being studied. 

By the way, your last sentence does sound just a tad paranoid.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> If birds are killed for food, that's one thing.  If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?





> win231 said:
> I don't hunt either. But actually, anyone who eats chicken or turkey contributes to killing birds. Not much difference, is there?


If birds are killed for food, that's one thing. If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?

This is a distraction but the reference to slaughter houses is pertinent. Slaughter of animals is subject to legislation and regulation to reduce pain and suffering of the animals. Slaughter of children in their classrooms is not. 

If the 2nd Amendment prevents any action being taken to prevent such slaughter, could we please have some laws requiring humane killing of unarmed children and people at worship- e.g. a single shot to the temple?

Of course my question is rhetorical. No need to provide an answer but I posed it to bring the focus back to the real issue. What is going to be done about the problem of gun violence against human beings, in particular American children at school? I cannot get over the fact that one little girl could only be identified by the shoes she was wearing. Her face was blown to pieces by the semi automatic weapon. I cannot imagine the pain of the parents who had to bury their daughter in that condition.

Please don't tell me that once again nothing will change.


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## Warrigal (Jun 10, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> That may be a good point ,  and can you remember a good example where action was taken locally or nationally or in other country ?


I cannot remember a case where our police have ever needed to go in to rescue school children being murdered by a gunman. It isn't part of our culture to enter a school, church or office building with guns blazing. 

Drive by shootings by criminal gangs are what our police have to deal with. Not sure what kind of guns they use though.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jun 10, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> By the way, your last sentence does sound just a tad paranoid.


Look throughout all history.   When anyone spoke against the ones in power,  they very often, not always maybe,  suffered retribution,  often extinction.  The 'victor' or the powerful is able to extinguish life with little or not consequence in this world, and it happens every day.
Here's the first,  a mild one,  example of what happens to whistle-blowers speaking the truth out ....
------------------------
“I feel sad to see how extremely corrupt Sweden has become today. Unfortunately, my lovely children pay the highest price again for this extreme pressure against them from Swedish authorities. My children lost their home, their friends, school, their father, and everything else important in life,” said Victor X.
 "Lawrence Schoenbach, the famed New York attorney and one of Victor’s lawyers for the lawsuit, responded to the Swedish government’s actions. 

“When truth speaks to power, the powerful react, as here, like a wounded animal,” he said.

"Whistleblowers come forward because they feel a sense of obligation to right a wrong. Those who do are often subject to far greater scrutiny. According to a $4.2 billion lawsuit Victor filed in New York, Swedish government authorities – accused of participating in a $150 billion money-laundering scheme – have harassed Victor and his companies almost immediately after he reported financial malfeasance by Swedish financial firms and government regulatory agencies."


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## WheatenLover (Jun 10, 2022)

Pepper said:


> *"In particular*, it reasoned that a provision that gave police officers qualified immunity in connection with their enforcement of restraining orders.......but rather examined the statute’s text and legislative history and distinguished arguably relevant Colorado case law."
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/04-278
> 
> It's been many years since I read legal documents.  Perhaps @WheatenLover could see this and interpret it for me.  I worked in Family Court as a Paralegal but I don't remember much.  I'd have to study it.  I wish I wanted to............




Under the doctrine of qualified immunity, a government actor is not subject to liability unless it is "sufficiently clear that a reasonable official would have understood that his conduct violated the right."

The statute details procedures in enforcing a restraining order, but those procedures are not mandatory. Therefore, the government is not subject to liability. Another issue is whether the children were property, which they were not, under the due process law. Part of the discussion centered around how the restraining order was issued in a civil case (divorce), not a criminal one. Part of the discussion was that the mother wanted the husband arrested for violating the order (not mandatory) and the police did not know where the husband was.

So when something like this case happens, sometimes the legislature changes the statute. It is worth noting that an issue was brought up about how the courts would be overrun with cases, and the police would have too many duties, to make having restraining orders offer personal protection ... something along those lines. This is probably true.

This is a very simplified discussion. If you have more questions, ask them. Otherwise I can write a short book on this, and get far afield from the case at hand. Believe me, you do not want that.

You likely realize this, but only facts and the law matter on appeal ... not emotions about the facts of the case. This case had horrific facts, as do many.

This is the actual court of appeals opinion:  https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3328550146402608786&q="366+F.3d+1093"&hl=en&as_sdt=2006


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## Warrigal (Jun 10, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Look throughout all history.   When anyone spoke against the ones in power,  they very often, not always maybe,  suffered retribution,  often extinction.  The 'victor' or the powerful is able to extinguish life with little or not consequence in this world, and it happens every day.
> Here's the first,  a mild one,  example of what happens to whistle-blowers speaking the truth out ....
> ------------------------
> “I feel sad to see how extremely corrupt Sweden has become today. Unfortunately, my lovely children pay the highest price again for this extreme pressure against them from Swedish authorities. My children lost their home, their friends, school, their father, and everything else important in life,” said Victor X.
> ...


I and neither Swedish not American. I presume that Victor is still alive but cannot draw any other conclusions from the scant details in your post. To what authority did he report his knowledge of financial malfeasance and what happened afterwards?

In second thought, belay that because this thread is about a massacre in an elementary school.
We should stick to the topic because it is a very important issue.


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## PamfromTx (Jun 10, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> Salvador Ramos was named as the 18-year-old suspect in the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, that left 15 people dead – including 14 students and a teacher,  according to the governor.




I detest this face with a passion.  I am sorry.  I've heard so much about how he carried out the killings and it breaks my heart more and more. His famous words, "Are you ready to die?"   I kid you not.  Children were hiding behind curtains and of course he saw their legs feet.  

I just hope he received a total of 21 gunshots himself for those 21 who lost their lives.  This is so not me; I just can't forget how these children were killed.


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## win231 (Jun 10, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I cannot remember a case where our police have ever needed to go in to rescue school children being murdered by a gunman. It isn't part of our culture to enter a school, church or office building with guns blazing.
> 
> Drive by shootings by criminal gangs are what our police have to deal with. Not sure what kind of guns they use though.


Bath, MI School Mass Murder - 1927
The Bath Consolidated School just outside East Lansing, Mich., was holding final exams, but before the morning bell rang on May 18, 1927, children ran and played outside. Peals of laughter could be heard.
“Little did their young minds, as the rest of ours, fancy their destiny was at hand … perhaps in half an hour they would rest in eternity with their playmates,” a 15-year-old student name Martha Hintz later recalled in an essay.

Later that morning, once students and teachers had settled into their classrooms, an explosion brought walls and ceilings down. The school had been dynamited by an angry school board member, but no one knew that yet. The only thing certain was that children and educators were hurt and others were dead or dying.
“We began to run screaming and crying in the same breath, some running for the door while others made for the windows,” Hintz, a ninth-grader, wrote in an essay published in a book titled, “The Bath School Disaster.” Once outside, she recalled: “From every direction, we could see people coming, some running at their utmost speed, and others driving machines, both hoping and praying that their children or friends were not among the dead.”
After each school killing, there is an urge to capture its magnitude in superlatives. That happened after the 2007 shooting at Virginia Tech, in which senior Seung Hui Cho killed 32 people and then himself. Media outlets at the time — and as recently as 2015 — described the event as the country’s “worst school massacre.” One Virginia newspaper ran a headline with the phrase: “Nation’s Worst Rampage.”

But they were wrong. As horrific and devastating as that April 16, 2007, day proved, it was not the worst mass killing on a school campus.
That distinction belongs to the mostly forgotten, harrowing explosion at Bath Consolidated School 95 years ago. That day, local farmer Andrew Kehoe, angry about taxes used to fund the school, killed his wife and then blew up the building before doing the same to his car as he sat inside it. In total, 45 people were killed, among them 38 children.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/05/24/bath-consolidated-school-massacre-uvalde/


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## Warrigal (Jun 11, 2022)

1927 is nearly a century ago. It hasn't become a trend, or am I mistaken?

Note that I have edited the number of school shootings. The number is 27, not several hundred. The number of mass shootings is 246, hence the confusion.

I believe there have been 27 school shootings in just the first 5 months of 2022.
A lot of deaths have probably accumulated with so many shootings.
Even so, it isn't only the deaths that are important. I don't think I would be the same if I, or any of my loved ones, were to take a bullet or two while at work or in school. It is unthinkable in my mind.


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## Della (Jun 11, 2022)

The Wall Street Journal has an article today linking increased marijuana use and the increase in violent crime.

They mention  a book I read a few years ago called, "Tell Your Children" that warns about violent episodes in some young people after using it.  They say the Uvalde killer began his episode by shooting his grandmother because she was complaining about how much of it the used.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cannab...se-thc-shootings-psychosis-mental-11654540197


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## JaniceM (Jun 11, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> If birds are killed for food, that's one thing. If birds are killed for no reason other than killing, well, that's something else, don't you think?
> 
> This is a distraction but the reference to slaughter houses is pertinent. Slaughter of animals is subject to legislation and regulation to reduce pain and suffering of the animals. Slaughter of children in their classrooms is not.
> 
> ...


Every time I think locals can't come up with anything stupider, they prove me wrong:

*“In terms of raising the age of semi-automatic rifles, at least what we see with our customer base, these are a lot of people who are using these things for hunting with their Dad or Grandpa in the state,” said Ethan Settle, the store manager at Crossroads Shooting Sports in Johnston. “So changing the law or any of these proposed changes I see as an infringement on the 2nd amendment.”
Settle added that he would be against any type of gun restrictions, saying that it attacks citizen’s unalienable rights*.
https://who13.com/news/iowa-leaders-divided-on-acting-to-curb-gun-violence/


18-year-olds (& 19&20) can no longer buy a pack of cigarettes, but can legally buy semi-automatic weapons...


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## PamfromTx (Jun 11, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> 18-year-olds (& 19&20) can no longer buy a pack of cigarettes, but can legally buy semi-automatic weapons...


Amazing, isn't it?  What is to become of our world?


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## JaniceM (Jun 11, 2022)

PamfromTx said:


> Amazing, isn't it?  What is to become of our world?


It's a scary thought for sure.


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## rgp (Jun 11, 2022)

Della said:


> The Wall Street Journal has an article today linking increased marijuana use and the increase in violent crime.
> 
> They mention  a book I read a few years ago called, "Tell Your Children" that warns about violent episodes in some young people after using it.  They say the Uvalde killer began his episode by shooting his grandmother because she was complaining about how much of it the used.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/cannab...se-thc-shootings-psychosis-mental-11654540197



 OK, first let me say I am not arguing with you ............ But ... in my younger years I was pretty much a bar-fly in that I was single & I just hung out . If not in my shop working on a project ....... I was up the street at my favorite place . I knew a lot of people that liked to get "high" Due to my job, I have never touched an illicit drug in my life. I was the drug "czar" at work ...... meaning I was the guy that took others for random test ..... as such I dare not break the rule.

I said I am not arguing , and I am not but ........ I just dissagree with the so called findings.

The bar folks that I knew back then that liked pot were some of the most laid back people I ever met. 

Drunks ??? Yes, drunks will fight at the drop of the hat, and some just get mean. But again, every pot smoker that I knew was pertty mellow. 

Maybe I'm wrong ? As I have no medical background , just sharing life experiences.


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## Pepper (Jun 11, 2022)

The mellow folks we knew @rgp were people in their twenties, right?  I am not sure what kind of effect it may have on someone who starts at 12 or so, which more kids seem to today.  It's also a hell of a lot better stuff out there today.


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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 12, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> My dad was a pheasant hunter and owned a semi-auto shotgun. Nice weapon, but a double barrel or pump would do. If that doesn't work for you, too bad. Personally, I feed birds, I don't hunt them.


As I said, those that don't hunt, do not understand what I am saying!  You only proved my point!


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## ElCastor (Jun 12, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> As I said, those that don't hunt, do not understand what I am saying!  You only proved my point!


And exactly what is your point?


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 13, 2022)




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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 13, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> And exactly what is your point?


"You feed birds, you don't hunt them!"  Therefore, you cannot understand what type of shotgun is preferred and why!  Get it now?


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## ElCastor (Jun 13, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> "You feed birds, you don't hunt them!"  Therefore, you cannot understand what type of shotgun is preferred and why!  Get it now?


No, I don’t get it, but putting aside shotguns for a moment, are you also defending what you believe is the necessity of semi-auto assault rifles?


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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 13, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> No, I don’t get it, but putting aside shotguns for a moment, are you also defending what you believe is the necessity of semi-auto assault rifles?


Nuff Said! Boring topic...


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## ElCastor (Jun 13, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Nuff Said! Boring topic...


Boring, or perhaps you would rather not respond to that question concerning your view of the necessity (or lack thereof) of semi-auto assault rifles in the hands of the public?


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## win231 (Jun 13, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I had a relative who hunted pheasants, deer, etc., AND it was only for food...  but all it took was one of his friends accidentally dying in a hunting accident (by the guy's own gun) that caused the relative and all of his hunting friends to start hunting by bow.  Nobody needs those other types of guns to shoot birds, deer, etc., it's just plain idiotic.


Bow & arrow has very limited range compared to a rifle.
And an animal suffers far more - by bleeding out slowly.


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## Timewise 60+ (Jun 14, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> Boring, or perhaps you would rather not respond to that question concerning your view of the necessity (or lack thereof) of semi-auto assault rifles in the hands of the public?


Just boring...!


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## dseag2 (Jun 14, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Just boring...!


"Boring" because you have no legitimate response.  This is not boring to the many parents who have lost their children due to killings from assault weapons.  You have given "crass" a new meaning.  Don't bother to respond because you are not worth my time, and I will certainly not reply to you.


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## PamfromTx (Jun 16, 2022)

Raiders donate $1 million to Uvalde school district to fortify security.​The Las Vegas Raiders made a $1 million donation to the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District in the wake of the tragic school shooting in Uvalde, Texas.

Raiders owner Mark Davis presented a $1 million check over a Zoom meeting this week that included UCISD superintendent Hal Harrell, UCISD director of student services Kenneth Mueller and Vann McElroy, a member of the Super Bowl XVIII champion Raiders, who currently resides in Uvalde.

https://www.nfl.com/news/raiders-donate-1-million-to-uvalde-school-district-to-fortify-security


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## win231 (Jun 16, 2022)

PamfromTx said:


> Raiders donate $1 million to Uvalde school district to fortify security.​The Las Vegas Raiders made a $1 million donation to the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District in the wake of the tragic school shooting in Uvalde, Texas.
> 
> Raiders owner Mark Davis presented a $1 million check over a Zoom meeting this week that included UCISD superintendent Hal Harrell, UCISD director of student services Kenneth Mueller and Vann McElroy, a member of the Super Bowl XVIII champion Raiders, who currently resides in Uvalde.
> 
> https://www.nfl.com/news/raiders-donate-1-million-to-uvalde-school-district-to-fortify-security


It would have been better if the Raiders PERSONALLY hired the people who were doing the work.
When money is indirectly donated, it often doesn't go where it's intended to go due to theft & corruption.  Especially a large sum.

Garth Brooks learned that lesson.  After his mother died of breast cancer, he donated $500,000.00 to a hospital to build a nice wing that specialized in cancer treatment.  The hospital administrators pocketed the money & never built the center.  Brooks sued & the judge awarded TWICE the amount to send a message to the thieves.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-suit-against-hospital-idINTRE80O0BS20120125


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## Della (Jun 24, 2022)

The police chief, Arredondo, has been placed on administrative leave, as his total failure during the crisis keeps coming to light.  I don't know why they didn't just fire him.   He should leave the area for his own safety, if I was one of the parents I'm not sure he would be safe from me.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

Della said:


> The police chief, Arredondo, has been placed on administrative leave, as his total failure during the crisis keeps coming to light.  I don't know why they didn't just fire him.   He should leave the area for his own safety, if I was one of the parents I'm not sure he would be safe from me.



 When in America did we decide that police officers should be/become sacrificial lambs ? Under law & oath they are not required to protect anyone.

 See below:

https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again

https://prospect.org/justice/police-have-no-duty-to-protect-the-public/

 Who decided that a students life has more value than that of a police officer ?

 Would you want an officer that might be a loved one, to just go in shooting? with no tactical approach ? How many kids might that have killed in the crossfire, not one of us knows, because none of us were there. 

Those officers families wanted them to home at the end of that day .... just as much as those parents wanted their children to . There is no difference .... they are all human life. I for one do not wish to start trading one for the other.


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## Della (Jun 24, 2022)

Nobody wanted them to "just go in shooting." I expect police to be good enough shots not to kill kids in the crossfire, particularly when the kids were on the other side of the room from the shooter. Most of the police were wearing vests and a few had shields.  They shouldn't need 77 minutes to form a tactical approach. 

 If they're just going to stand around saying, "Ooo it looks dangerous in there, I'm not going in,"  then they should find another job and quit collecting regular pay as police who tell us they aim to serve and protect citizens.



rgp said:


> How many kids might that have killed in the crossfire, not one of us knows, because none of us were there.




We know how many kids died when the police weren't there. In one classroom 100% of the children were shot to death, none of them had a tactical plan, a bullet proof vest, a shield or a gun.  



rgp said:


> Those officers families wanted them to home at the end of that day .... just as much as those parents wanted their children to .


I doubt that.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

Della said:


> Nobody wanted them to "just go in shooting." I expect police to be good enough shots not to kill kids in the crossfire, particularly when the kids were on the other side of the room from the shooter. Most of the police were wearing vests and a few had shields.  They shouldn't need 77 minutes to form a tactical approach.
> 
> If they're just going to stand around saying, "Ooo it looks dangerous in there, I'm not going in,"  then they should find another job and quit collecting regular pay as police who tell us they aim to serve and protect citizens.
> 
> ...



  " I doubt that " ..... You doubt that the officers families wanted them to come home that day ?


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## win231 (Jun 24, 2022)

rgp said:


> When in America did we decide that police officers should be/become sacrificial lambs ? Under law & oath they are not required to protect anyone.
> 
> See below:
> 
> ...


Perhaps you can explain the sign on every police vehicle here that says_ "To Protect And Serve."_
Perhaps you can also explain why police officers are thought of as heroes.
Perhaps you can explain what police officers are paid for.


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## SeniorBen (Jun 24, 2022)

win231 said:


> Perhaps you can explain the sign on every police vehicle here that says_ "To Protect And Serve."_
> Perhaps you can also explain why police officers are thought of as heroes.
> Perhaps you can explain what police officers are paid for.


That's how it used to be before the police became militarized. Now they see the public as the enemy. We see that all over the country whenever there are protests — even peaceful protests.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

win231 said:


> Perhaps you can explain the sign on every police vehicle here that says_ "To Protect And Serve."_
> Perhaps you can also explain why police officers are thought of as heroes.
> Perhaps you can explain what police officers are paid for.



 "Protect and Serve".......... is a broad brush slogan. Did you read the links I posted ?

I don't think of them as heroes ......... unless they do something heroic 

They are paid to patrol ..... to deter crime by their presence , to enforce law , and to investigate when a law has been broken. And to arrest those that break those laws.

They are not paid to "take a bullet" for anyone.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

Della said:


> Nobody wanted them to "just go in shooting." I expect police to be good enough shots not to kill kids in the crossfire, particularly when the kids were on the other side of the room from the shooter. Most of the police were wearing vests and a few had shields.  They shouldn't need 77 minutes to form a tactical approach.
> 
> If they're just going to stand around saying, "Ooo it looks dangerous in there, I'm not going in,"  then they should find another job and quit collecting regular pay as police who tell us they aim to serve and protect citizens.
> 
> ...



  "I expect police to be good enough shots not to kill kids in the crossfire, particularly when the kids were on the other side of the room from the shooter. Most of the police were wearing vests and a few had shields.  They shouldn't need 77 minutes to form a tactical approach."

  So ...... You were there ? And know exactly how the situation should have been approached ?


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## Della (Jun 24, 2022)

rgp said:


> " I doubt that " ..... You doubt that the officers families wanted them to come home that day ?


You left out the last half of your own sentence, which ended with "just as much as those parents wanted their children to."

I don't doubt that the officers families love them and would be heartbroken if the didn't come home -- but probably not quite as devastated as the parents of young children.  Many, many grieving parents have said it's the very worst pain.  Individuals will vary of course.


rgp said:


> They are paid to patrol ..... to deter crime by their presence , to enforce law , and to investigate when a law has been broken. And to arrest those that break those laws.


How can they deter crime with their presence if criminals learn not to expect them to actually do anything?  How can they enforce the law if they refuse to enter a room where someone is breaking the law?


rgp said:


> So ...... You were there ? And know exactly how the situation should have been approached ?


I've read quite a few detailed accounts by teachers and children who were there.  I've also heard police experts say that the active shooter guidelines say that the first thing police should do is find and engage the shooter.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

Della said:


> You left out the last half of your own sentence, which ended with "just as much as those parents wanted their children to."
> 
> I don't doubt that the officers families love them and would be heartbroken if the didn't come home -- but probably not quite as devastated as the parents of young children.  Many, many grieving parents have said it's the very worst pain.  Individuals will vary of course.
> 
> ...



 I do not pretend to know what the level of devastation is for anyone but myself. I can't feel your pain. A police officers wife/mother ..... family may indeed be just as devastated. 

  "How can they deter crime with their presence if criminals learn not to expect them to actually do anything?  How can they enforce the law if they refuse to enter a room where someone is breaking the law?"

Hard to argue that actually but ......... When they do "do" something the public & the media vilify what they do . The criminals have no fear of police because they know the police are hobbled by the current state in our nation.

I'll say it again ..... police officers are not required to take a bullet for anyone ....child or not.


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## win231 (Jun 24, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> That's how it used to be before the police became militarized. Now they see the public as the enemy. We see that all over the country whenever there are protests — even peaceful protests.


Nothing wrong with protests - if there is good reason for them - like police brutality & misconduct.  And murder.


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## win231 (Jun 24, 2022)

rgp said:


> "Protect and Serve".......... is a broad brush slogan. Did you read the links I posted ?
> 
> I don't think of them as heroes ......... unless they do something heroic
> 
> ...


Yes, they are not paid to "Take a Bullet."  They wouldn't have taken any bullets.  Just an empty excuse for apathy & incompetence.
They have all the necessary equipment at their disposal (I posted previously about) to prevent them from "Taking a Bullet."


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## win231 (Jun 24, 2022)

rgp said:


> "I expect police to be good enough shots not to kill kids in the crossfire, particularly when the kids were on the other side of the room from the shooter. Most of the police were wearing vests and a few had shields.  They shouldn't need 77 minutes to form a tactical approach."
> 
> So ...... You were there ? And know exactly how the situation should have been approached ?


^^^^ Such desperation to justify apathy & incompetence.


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## rgp (Jun 24, 2022)

win231 said:


> Yes, they are not paid to "Take a Bullet."  They wouldn't have taken any bullets.  Just an empty excuse for apathy & incompetence.
> They have all the necessary equipment at their disposal (I posted previously about) to prevent them from "Taking a Bullet."



  So .......... you are an expert in police tactics ? Again I''ll ask .... do you think the police should take/be prepared to take a bullet for you ? for anyone ?


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## PamfromTx (Jun 24, 2022)

Why on earth did so many law enforcement personnel show up if not to save lives/kill the shooter?  That part confuses and angers me.

There were Uvalde policemen, DPS, DEA, Border Patrol and they stood and did nothing for all those minutes.

[The law enforcement sure didn't waste time or hesitate in killing the late George Floyd and many others.]

I am not defending Arredondo but am thinking they are using him as a scapegoat to cover up the inadequate actions of many law enforcement agencies.

Don't get annoyed with me.  As I said earlier, I don't understand it at all.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 24, 2022)

PamfromTx said:


> Why on earth did so many law enforcement personnel show up if not to save lives/kill the shooter?


It is all part of the great plan and reset etc etc etc .

They get paid for showing up,  a lot of them get paid overtime, 

and their supervisors and up to the governor likely makes thousands more also.


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## PamfromTx (Jun 24, 2022)

Though officers were inside Robb Elementary School just three minutes after the gunman entered, it took them 1 hour, 14 minutes, and 8 seconds to end the massacre.


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## SeniorBen (Jun 24, 2022)

rgp said:


> So .......... you are an expert in police tactics ? Again I''ll ask .... do you think the police should take/be prepared to take a bullet for you ? for anyone ?


Their primary concern should be to stop the massacre. There is the risk of taking a bullet, just like construction workers run the risk of falling off a roof, and truck drivers run the risk of getting into an accident. 

Police work is far from the most dangerous occupation. If they aren't willing to risk getting hurt to save defenseless children, they should find another line of work.


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## rgp (Jun 25, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> Their primary concern should be to stop the massacre. There is the risk of taking a bullet, just like construction workers run the risk of falling off a roof, and truck drivers run the risk of getting into an accident.
> 
> Police work is far from the most dangerous occupation. If they aren't willing to risk getting hurt to save defenseless children, they should find another line of work.




 Their [the cops] primary concern is to protect themselves ..... Then try to position themselves in a tactical position to shoot the gunman . 

Truck drivers & construction workers take every precaution to "protect" themselves . They do not push it to the limit .... 

They [cops] do not respond with a Dirty Harry mentality, that is Hollywood crap, that has in my opinion brainwashed a percentage of the masses. 

And once again, they are not required to "protect" the public ..... see the links i posted earlier. And IMO trading one life for another , is not something I can support.


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## oldman (Jul 21, 2022)

I thought I heard an interview with the police chief Pete Arredondo (not sure of spelling) that he said when he first arrived on scene, he immediately took off his radios, checked his weapon and ran into the building. Upon entering the school, he went to rooms 111-112, but could not enter because he did not have the key to the door and could not enter it with a ram because it has a steel jam. 

He tried several more keys that were handed to him, including the janitor's keys, but none worked. So, he had his officers start to break windows from the outside and bring the kids out through the windows. (This confused me.) At no time did he give any orders to "stand down." That came from another police group that was onsite. 

Did anyone else hear this?


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## Pepper (Jul 21, 2022)

Yes @oldman, I remember that.


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## oldman (Jul 21, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Yes @oldman, I remember that.


Well, did the school board or the town's council believe him and did they forgive him for not doing more? I lost track of the news since being in Florida.


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## Pepper (Jul 21, 2022)

Hope @PamfromTx doesn't get mad at me, but I think there may be a lot of corruption in this town's gov't @oldman


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## PamfromTx (Jul 21, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Hope @PamfromTx doesn't get mad at me, but I think there may be a lot of corruption in this town's gov't @oldman


I won't get mad.  I have not lived there in 24 years and had no clue how 'bad' it is.  It is such a small town that has many good people.  What I don't understand is why they are blaming it all on ex-Chief Arrendondo?  He's at the bottom of the list (CHAIN IN COMMAND) of all law enforcement who were present.  I can't believe others (state law enforcement) have more power to say what can and cannot be done and yet nothing was done sooner to kill the shooter.

Funny, I hadn't checked this thread; I've been listening to music and then I saw a new You Tube video of one of the teacher's husband (a Uvalde policeman) who was receiving texts after the shooting.  The other law enforcement would not let him go and retrieve her and perhaps have saved her life.  She died en route to the hospital.  Check out the video if you have time.

No, I cannot be mad.

*Uvalde, corrupt?  Perhaps.

 I can't say as I haven't lived there in 24 years.   But all of the law enforcement present were chickens.  And I do believe that Arredondo is their scapegoat.*


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## SeniorBen (Jul 21, 2022)

oldman said:


> I thought I heard an interview with the police chief Pete Arredondo (not sure of spelling) that he said when he first arrived on scene, he immediately took off his radios, checked his weapon and ran into the building. Upon entering the school, he went to rooms 111-112, but could not enter because he did not have the key to the door and could not enter it with a ram because it has a steel jam.
> 
> He tried several more keys that were handed to him, including the janitor's keys, but none worked. So, he had his officers start to break windows from the outside and bring the kids out through the windows. (This confused me.) At no time did he give any orders to "stand down." That came from another police group that was onsite.
> 
> Did anyone else hear this?


There was one report that the lock was broken and they could have just gone in without a key. And why would the police chief take off his radios? That doesn't make any sense.

There have been too many conflicting reports and too many lies. The people in charge as well as all the officers involved need to testify under oath as to what happened. I doubt there was any criminal wrongdoing, but it seems like there was a lot of incompetence and cowardice on the part of the police. Let the facts come out.


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