# Alec Baldwin fatally shoots woman with prop gun on movie set



## fmdog44 (Oct 21, 2021)

Alec Baldwin shoots prop gun, killing 1, injuring another on set of 'Rust,' New Mexico officials say (msn.com)


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## oldpop (Oct 21, 2021)

How sad for all involved.


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## Devi (Oct 21, 2021)

Yes.

Same thing(?) happened to Bruce Lee's son, Brandon Lee — shot with a prop gun on the set of the film The Crow:
https://www.biography.com/actor/brandon-lee


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## Irwin (Oct 21, 2021)

That's bizarre. How do you shoot and kill someone with a "prop gun?" Did someone switch out the prop gun for a real gun?


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## win231 (Oct 21, 2021)

Irwin said:


> That's bizarre. How do you shoot and kill someone with a "prop gun?" Did someone switch out the prop gun for a real gun?


It's my understanding that a prop gun is a real gun that's supposed to be loaded with blanks.  Blanks are made up of real brass cases, real primers, real gun powder & instead of a bullet, wadded-up paper, wax, or some other material to hold the powder in the case.  When the material leaves the barrel, it spreads out & won't cause injury at a safe distance, but at the guns muzzle, the pressure is enough to cause injury or death.  The only way a blank can cause injury or death is if the gun is held very close to someone when fired - as in this case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum

The gun may have been loaded with a real cartridge instead of a blank.


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## Tish (Oct 21, 2021)

So very sad.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59005500

Bad news, but I wonder how this could have happened twice, one died, one in the hospital...


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## MrPants (Oct 22, 2021)

Terrible tragedy 
RIP Ms. Hutchins and condolences to her loved ones and best wishes for a full recover to Mr. Souza.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 22, 2021)

This isn't the first time Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum also died from prop guns.  

It seems to me basic safety measures like being sure the gun is not actually aimed at anyone and not firing too close should have prevented this...

Gun safety is important, even with blanks...


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## Pauline1954 (Oct 22, 2021)

How does a prop gun kill one and injure another? Prop is usually non deadly like fake.   I must say I would be a mess if I had done something like this.  I really feel for those involved. Even Alex and I know he has a temper. What tragedy.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 22, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> How does a prop gun kill one and injure another?


Don't know what happened here yet.

In the Brandon Lee case there was some debris in the barrel that the blank charge sent out into Lee.

In the Hexum case he held the gun to his head thinking he was faking suicide, a joke I think.  Nothing penetrated his skull, but the force of the blank was great enough to fracture his skull, leading to death.

Either way the basic rules of gun safety I learned as a kid would have prevented this.  *Don't aim a gun at anyone, ever, loaded or not! *and *Know your target*, and what's behind it.

Awful tragedy but one that seems to have been preventable.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Pauline1954 said:


> How does a prop gun kill one and injure another? Prop is usually non deadly like fake.   I must say I would be a mess if I had done something like this.  I really feel for those involved. Even Alex and I know he has a temper. What tragedy.


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/prop-gun-using-blanks-still-052227936.html


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> That's bizarre. How do you shoot and kill someone with a "prop gun?" Did someone switch out the prop gun for a real gun?


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/prop-gun-using-blanks-still-052227936.html


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## WhatInThe (Oct 22, 2021)

Tragic.

 Since it affected 2 people have to wonder if something exploded. If you look close at the weapons in many of these shows and movies one can see like a pin hole, covered barrel.  Have to wonder if that wasn't clean to let enough gases/energy escape. Or the gun was pointed at an object which in turn also created debris/projectiles.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 22, 2021)

Usually there's a cover or suppressor of somekind to stop stuff from flying out/away from the weapon. Alot of 'prop' guns one can see a covered barrel with a pinhole in it. If an actually gun they should have a way to put a blank adapter on or in it ie the pin covers/ends many a barrel . The military won't use blanks without a special weapon or adapter. Have to wonder if some safety procedures were bypassed or not available for older weapons.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 22, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Have to wonder if some safety procedures were bypassed


Probably so, we'll find out.


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## raybar (Oct 22, 2021)

Questions abound - - 
- What kind of gun was it? Antique from the 19th century or modern reproduction? 
- If they were not just about to shoot the scene, why did the prop master or armorer give ANYONE a loaded weapon?
- Did Baldwin pull the trigger, or did the gun malfunction and discharge on its own (more likely with an antique)?

In my many years on set as a camera assistant and camera operator, we never had an accident with guns. But camera crews, because there is often nothing but air between the guns and us, tend to be restlessly paranoid about gun safety. Prop masters and armorers, at least those I knew, were even more paranoid about it, typically only giving loaded weapons to actors just before we rolled the cameras and taking them back immediately after the director calls "cut." 

It seems, based on the limited information released thus far, that there was a serious breakdown in what I consider standard and mandatory safety procedures. Perhaps no one will be held criminally liable, depending on what the investigation finds, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone held responsible in civil court.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Devi said:


> Yes.
> 
> Same thing(?) happened to Bruce Lee's son, Brandon Lee — shot with a prop gun on the set of the film The Crow:
> https://www.biography.com/actor/brandon-lee


Different scenario in Brandon Lee's case involving improperly-loaded "Homemade" blanks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee

In the film shoot preceding the fatal scene, the prop gun, which is a real revolver, was loaded with improperly-made dummy rounds, cartridges from which the special-effects crew had removed the powder charges so in close-ups the revolver would show normal-looking ammunition. However, the crew neglected to remove the primers from the cartridges. At some point before the fatal event, one of the rounds had been fired; although there was no powder charges, the energy from the ignited primer was enough to separate the bullet from the casing and push it part-way into the gun barrel, where it got stuck (a condition known as a squib load). For the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be fired at Lee from a distance of 3.6–4.5 meters (12–15 ft), the dummy cartridges were replaced with blank rounds, which contained a powder charge and the primer, but no solid bullet, allowing the gun to be fired with sound and flash effects without the risk of an actual projectile. However, the gun was not properly checked and cleared before the blank round was fired, and the dummy bullet previously lodged in the barrel was then propelled forward by the blank and shot out the muzzle with almost the same force as if the round were live, striking Lee in the abdomen.


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## Irwin (Oct 22, 2021)

One article out today said that somebody mistakenly put real bullets in the "prop gun" instead of blanks. Ooops.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> One article out today said that somebody mistakenly put real bullets in the "prop gun" instead of blanks. Ooops.


If that was the case, an important rule was violated - having real ammo in the vicinity of a firearm that was intended to be loaded with blanks.
Competitive shooters (like myself) who practice dry firing (no ammo) at home know better than to have regular ammo in the same room with the gun.
And (more importantly), a gun must be checked _each time_ it changes hands & before doing anything to it - cleaning, etc.  There are two reasons for this.
1.  To make sure it is unloaded when you _want _it to be unloaded.
2.  To make sure it *IS* loaded when you want it to be loaded.
Once this becomes a habit, accidents are practically impossible.


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## jerry old (Oct 22, 2021)

Good info Win 231, 
All my gun are loaded-they are for shooting-period.
Kept guns locked or put away when kids were young-their grown now and know are firearms are 'live.'

Can't believe the film crew kept ball in round.  
We are all familiar with 'wads' for blanks, I've never fired a 'wad' at anyone, that is not what there for.
Your explanation on post 10 (good stuff) cannot believe the film crew left the ball on the shell, the primer is enough to make a 'bang.'
How dumb can you get.

A lady is dead, no one meant to kill her and no charge of manslaughter seems appropriate, but we all have a sense of outrage.
(Wonder if the lady had kids, spouse?)


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## JustBonee (Oct 22, 2021)

A little about the woman that was killed .. 

Originally from Ukraine, Halyna grew up on a Soviet military base in the Arctic Circle surrounded by reindeer and nuclear submarines. She holds a graduate degree in International Journalism from Kyiv National University in Ukraine and previously worked as an investigative journalist with British documentary productions in Europe.

http://www.halynahutchinsdp.com/bio


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## Packerjohn (Oct 22, 2021)

Gee!  What goes with these new fangled, city slicker celebrities?  Don't they know that you should never point a gun at anyone and when you do you have to always presume that it is loaded.  Maybe they are hard to teach?  James Arness (Marshal Matt Dillon) started in 635 episodes of Gunsmoke and he never really shot anyone.  To tell you the truth, he never even married Kitty, the saloon keeper either but hey, maybe I'm getting off the topic.


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## jerry old (Oct 22, 2021)

(Begging forgiveness for taking OP's topic south-it's a character deficit.
Packerjohn, Welcome to the group that takes threads south.  Matt Dillion has been shot so many times that when he removes his
shirt he looks like Swiss Cheese.  
He has killed scores of folks, but they get up when the camera is turned off.
Matt's late night visits to Miss Kitty's room are not recorded.  
Matt and Miss Kitty were fine upstanding folk, no illicit behavior ever occurred-never.
I've often wondered if Fetus made any midnight visits to Miss Kitty's room.)

Now I will post  a comment on thread that is serious


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 22, 2021)

I haven't heard the latest on this terrible accident, but Alec must feel terrible, I know he was crying and apologizing to the deceased woman's family.  May she rest peacefully, and I hope the other person who was shot pulls through.  I didn't hear what kind of bullets were in that prop gun yet.


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## jerry old (Oct 22, 2021)

This accidental shooting is not the event that sent my mind whirling with a sense of outrage.
It's the number of attacks on my psyche that have occurred in the last three decades.
The Wanton Killings, the theft of millions by banks and individuals with little or no punishment.

We know the Alex Badlwin will be ruled ACCIDENTAL-that is probably a correct ruling-but a person is DEAD; What Of Her.
you want to explain it was 'A Accident!

The rape on the subway.
The killings which are daily fare on the news broadcast...

*Where is our sense of Outrage concerning the society we live in...
We have been 'offendefd beyond endurance, yet we do nothing.*


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## Jules (Oct 22, 2021)

Perhaps this was during the filming that the gun was pointed at the lady.  

In this age of technology, why aren’t they just adding the sound with special effects?


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## RadishRose (Oct 22, 2021)

How terrible.
I don't care much for Alec Baldwin but in this instance I feel intense compassion.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> Gee!  What goes with these new fangled, city slicker celebrities?  Don't they know that you should never point a gun at anyone and when you do you have to always presume that it is loaded.  Maybe they are hard to teach?  James Arness (Marshal Matt Dillon) started in 635 episodes of Gunsmoke and he never really shot anyone.  To tell you the truth, he never even married Kitty, the saloon keeper either but hey, maybe I'm getting off the topic.


Well,_ "Never pointing a gun at anyone"_ doesn't apply in movie making when it's necessary to point guns at other actors.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Jules said:


> Perhaps this was during the filming that the gun was pointed at the lady.
> 
> In this age of technology, why aren’t they just adding the sound with special effects?


They often do add the sound, but actors usually have to pull the trigger for realism.


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## Irwin (Oct 22, 2021)

win231 said:


> If that was the case, an important rule was violated - having real ammo in the vicinity of a firearm that was intended to be loaded with blanks.
> Competitive shooters (like myself) who practice dry firing (no ammo) at home know better than to have regular ammo in the same room with the gun.
> And (more importantly), a gun must be checked _each time_ it changes hands & before doing anything to it - cleaning, etc.  There are two reasons for this.
> 1.  To make sure it is unloaded when you _want _it to be unloaded.
> ...


You would think they would have somebody in charge of weapons used on the movie set who checked them before they were used in a scene and unloaded them after — even if they only had blanks in them. The percussion from blanks can shatter someone's skull if fired at close proximity. There was a story about an actor who thought it would be funny to play Russian roulette with a blank. The gun fired and the blast killed him. 

And why would live rounds be anywhere near the set? It doesn't make any sense at this point. We'll find out in the next few days what happened.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

jerry old said:


> This accidental shooting is not the event that sent my mind whirling with a sense of outrage.
> It's the number of attacks on my psyche that have occurred in the last three decades.
> The Wanton Killings, the theft of millions by banks and individuals with little or no punishment.
> 
> ...


The missing outrage about other rapes & killings is probably due to the fact that "We" (regular citizens) can't do much about them, since we're not in a position to change them.
The outrage about this accident is that it was _preventable_.


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## RadishRose (Oct 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> And why would live rounds be anywhere near the set?


also my question


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Irwin said:


> You would think they would have somebody in charge of weapons used on the movie set who checked them before they were used in a scene and unloaded them after — even if they only had blanks in them. The percussion from blanks can shatter someone's skull if fired at close proximity. There was a story about an actor who thought it would be funny to play Russian roulette with a blank. The gun fired and the blast killed him.
> 
> And why would live rounds be anywhere near the set? It doesn't make any sense at this point. We'll find out in the next few days what happened.


Yes, this actor:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

This is interesting.  What I suspected - cost cutting involved.
_"Corners were being cut — and they brought in nonunion people so they could continue shooting," a source tells the Los Angeles Times. The paper notes that Hutchins was among those advocating for safer conditions."_

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment...ng-jensen-ackles-propgun-video-212956451.html


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## Michael Z (Oct 22, 2021)

I heard about this and it is sad. Someone needs to make prop guns that will only shoot prop gun ammo. Perhaps ammo with a ridge in the body.

Otherwise, as mentioned, you NEVER point a real gun at anyone!


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## Sunny (Oct 22, 2021)

Why do they use real guns, anyway? Can't they just use fake guns that look real and have their sound engineers make a realistic bang?

Or even better, stop making those violent westerns with all the shooting in them!


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 22, 2021)

When I saw the report it was reported as " on a set of a movie Baldwin is making". The reporter didn't say Alec was the shooter. The victims were both reported as being 42, but in the article you posted it says the man is 48. I'll be interested to see what the investigation reveals.

I remember when Jon Erik died. I was heartbroken and just couldn't believe it.  He was absolutely gorgeous and seemed to be such a nice young man. He was a Jersey boy too.


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## RadishRose (Oct 22, 2021)

Maybe someone wanted her dead.


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## Gary O' (Oct 22, 2021)

win231 said:


> It's my understanding that a prop gun is a real gun that's supposed to be loaded with blanks. Blanks are made up of real brass cases, real primers, real gun powder & instead of a bullet, wadded-up paper, wax, or some other material to hold the powder in the case. When the material leaves the barrel, it spreads out & won't cause injury at a safe distance, but at the guns muzzle, the pressure is enough to cause injury or death.* The only way a blank can cause injury or death is if the gun is held very close to someone when fired*


Yeah

and.....*IT HURTS!*


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## Sassycakes (Oct 22, 2021)

What a tragedy for the families and Alec Balwin.


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## AnnieA (Oct 22, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Or even better, stop making those violent westerns with all the shooting in them!



That won't happen because violent films sell really well worldwide.  Per usual, follow the money.


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) — "_Alec Baldwin was handed a loaded weapon by an assistant director who indicated it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show.
The assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.
Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was shot in the chest on the set of a Western starring Baldwin. Director Joel Souza was wounded. The records said he was standing behind her."_
Looks like the director was wounded by the same bullet that killed the cinematographer.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sheriff-baldwin-fired-prop-gun-100904090.html


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## win231 (Oct 22, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Why do they use real guns, anyway? Can't they just use fake guns that look real and have their sound engineers make a realistic bang?
> 
> Or even better, stop making those violent westerns with all the shooting in them!


Reality won't sell tickets.


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## PamfromTx (Oct 22, 2021)

No one should ever be killed by a gun on a film set.  So tragic.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 23, 2021)

win231 said:


> SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) — "_Alec Baldwin was handed a loaded weapon by an assistant director who indicated it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, court records released Friday show.
> The assistant director did not know the prop gun was loaded with live rounds, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.
> Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was shot in the chest on the set of a Western starring Baldwin. Director Joel Souza was wounded. The records said he was standing behind her."_
> Looks like the director was wounded by the same bullet that killed the cinematographer.
> ...


Yes, the more comprehensive report I saw mentioned the ongoing concern about safety issues on the set. And you're right Win...cost cutting by producers for this low budget film was cited as a major factor. It was the Asst. Director's responsibility to make sure the prop gun was safe to use.

That poor woman, described as a rising star in her field, never dreamed that day would be her last. I feel so bad for her family, friends and the crew. I'm not a Baldwin fan but feel bad for him too. The lawsuit will wipe out *that* budget.


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## Judycat (Oct 23, 2021)

Accidental? I think not.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

I do like Baldwin, but I think he has to share in the guilt and blame here.  He violated the basic gun safety rules I learned as a kid.  I am not alone, most of the people I know learned these rules too.  It is one of the good things that comes with our "gun culture" in the US. 

Never point a gun at anyone, even an empty one, treat all guns as loaded. And know your target.  He could have aimed to the side of Halyna in a direction he was sure would not have hit anyone.  Hollywood could have made it look real.
Always check a gun yourself to see if its loaded, first thing you do whenever  you pick a gun up.  Don't trust others to do it.  And he should have known the difference between a real round and a blank, if he didn't he shouldn't be shooting anything.
There could well be others equally or more to blame than Baldwin, but he has to carry blame himself, just following these basic gun safety rules would have prevented the shooting.


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## Giants fan1954 (Oct 23, 2021)

Apparently he's to "smart" to know the basic gun safety rules.
1- Always assume it's loaded
2- Don't point it at anyone.
Be interesting to see the SNL


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## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

Giants fan1954 said:


> Be interesting to see the SNL


I hope we don't, nothing funny about this.  And hope not to see Baldwin for a while either, not unless admitting his mistakes...


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 23, 2021)

Giants fan1954 said:


> Apparently he's to "smart" to know the basic gun safety rules.
> 1- Always assume it's loaded
> 2- Don't point it at anyone.
> Be interesting to see the SNL


I agree with @Alligatorob . This is not a situation to poke fun at.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 23, 2021)

Now they're saying the armoror on the set was only 24 but is an expert shooter. So she should know the difference between blanks and live rounds. Others are saying that many directors like to film the weapon with a real round/real looking dummy round in the chamber such as with a revolver. If it was the cinemaphotographer that was killed maybe(unclear) the director wanted a shot looking straight at the gun as to show it was loaded.

A lot of talk of a 'hot' or 'cold' gun but the same definition is not used on all movie sets.

Also as many have noted the gun should've never been pointed at anyone. I think Bladwin has made action movies before so he should have a concept of gun safety even though an anti gunner.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> live rounds


What the hell were live rounds even doing on the set?  I cannot imagine any legitimate reason.  The "_armoror_" has a lot to answer for here.


WhatInThe said:


> I think Bladwin has made action movies before so he should have a concept of gun safety even though an anti gunner.


Yes, anyone who touches a firearm must.  Anything more lethal than a slingshot...  Being pro or anti gun has nothing to do with it...


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## feywon (Oct 23, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This isn't the first time Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum also died from prop guns.
> 
> It seems to me basic safety measures like being sure the gun is not actually aimed at anyone and not firing too close should have prevented this...
> 
> Gun safety is important, even with blanks...


Yes, i was having trouble remembering Hexum's full name, in that case he actually shot himself. Why had no-one explained that up close blanks can do damage? Or why hadn't he listened?

And i'm sure top of list questions authorities will have will be about whether the safety protocols had been followed.


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## feywon (Oct 23, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Now they're saying the armoror on the set was only 24 but is an expert shooter. So she should know the difference between blanks and live rounds. Others are saying that many directors like to film the weapon with a real round/real looking dummy round in the chamber such as with a revolver. If it was the cinemaphotographer that was killed maybe(unclear) the director wanted a shot looking straight at the gun as to show it was loaded.
> 
> A lot of talk of a 'hot' or 'cold' gun but the same definition is not used on all movie sets.
> 
> Also as many have noted the gun should've never been pointed at anyone. I think Bladwin has made action movies before so he should have a concept of gun safety even though an anti gunner.


Actually i would expect an 'anti-gunner' as you've labeled him to be even more cautious around guns since he does sometimes have to handle them in his work.


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## Della (Oct 23, 2021)

Another point is that most of the crew had "walked out" that morning leaving just a few behind.  One of the people on strike might have been angry with those who stayed.  A gun intentionally set up with a live round sounds impossible to me, but people get very serious about their jobs.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

Della said:


> One of the people on strike might have been angry with those who stayed.


Sure hope you are wrong, I would like to think this was an accident based on carelessness or incompetence, not something willful. 

However it is possible... would explain how a real bullet got into that gun.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 23, 2021)

Della said:


> Another point is that most of the crew had "walked out" that morning leaving just a few behind.  One of the people on strike might have been angry with those who stayed.  A gun intentionally set up with a live round sounds impossible to me, but people get very serious about their jobs.


Didn't a Hollywood union renew their contract earlier this week? They weren't part of the same union?


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## Victor (Oct 23, 2021)

In the early movies, real bullets were used and actors were expected to move away fast. So says Jimmy Cagney in his autobiography. A professional shooter was used, as in The Public Enemy.


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## win231 (Oct 23, 2021)

Victor said:


> In the early movies, real bullets were used and actors were expected to move away fast. So says Jimmy Cagney in his autobiography. A professional shooter was used, as in The Public Enemy.


He must have been joking.  I have many of Cagney's old movies.  As a shooter, I can tell by the lack of recoil, there is no real ammo used.  In fact, NO movie or TV series uses real ammo.


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## raybar (Oct 23, 2021)

Several comments above say that Baldwin should have checked the gun himself when it was handed to him.

In "real life," personally checking whether or not a gun is loaded is correct procedure. But not on a movie set. Many actors are not shooters in real life and are not familiar guns. I overheard several actors say they were a little nervous because they had never even touched a gun before. Having someone who doesn't know anything about guns check them for safety is a recipe for disaster.

Gun safety on set is the responsibility of the prop master or the armorer. They are responsible for the guns themselves, and also for insuring that the actors know how to handle them. For example, one young actress who had never touched a gun before had to grab a shotgun and kill the bad guy. So they took her off set somewhere safe and taught her how to handle it and let her shoot it a few times so that, on camera, she looked like she knew what she was doing. Which she really didn't.

News reports indicate that the gun was handed to Baldwin by an assistant director. That is a safety violation. Why was anyone other than the the armorer (or an assistant armorer) dealing with guns? News reports also indicate that this assistant director told Baldwin that the gun was safe, which it obviously wasn't. In all my years on set, I never saw anyone other than a prop master or armorer give a gun to an actor.

As I said above (post #17) camera crews tend to extremely conscious of gun safety because, aside from the actors, we are closer to the action than anyone else, and therefore most in danger should anything go wrong. And it's not only when things go wrong. When the actors shoot toward the camera, they are shooting right at us, and often at close range. As an assistant, standing right beside the camera, I personally have had guns (mostly 9mm and .38, but also shotguns and once, for an extra level of excitement, twin .50 cal machine guns) fired right in my face hundreds of times. So, I am not surprised at all that the camera crew had quit over previous "misfires."

=====

VICTOR - -

Yes, The International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees did just renew their contract. Local 600, the International Photographers Guild, is part of the IA. The camera crew members who quit are memberS of that local.

Regarding James Cagney's statement that real guns were used in old movies, well, don't believe everything you read.


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## Jules (Oct 23, 2021)

@raybar  Thank you for this factual information.


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## Don M. (Oct 23, 2021)

When all the investigations, etc., are complete, I suspect that someone in charge of this gun intentionally put real bullets into it.  I cannot imagine anyone who has basic knowledge of firearms Not knowing the difference between a blank and a real bullet.  I see charges of Manslaughter, or murder coming.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

Thanks Raybar, always good to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about.  However:


raybar said:


> Several comments above say that Baldwin should have checked the gun himself when it was handed to him.
> 
> In "real life," personally checking whether or not a gun is loaded is correct procedure. But not on a movie set. Many actors are not shooters in real life and are not familiar guns. I overheard several actors say they were a little nervous because they had never even touched a gun before. Having someone who doesn't know anything about guns check them for safety is a recipe for disaster.


I am sure you are right about standard procedures and the lack of gun knowledge of many actors.  However it seems to me that basic safety requires these people to be trained.  No one who doesn't know how to safely check a gun should be handling one.  This is not difficult or time consuming training.  Makes no more sense than asking an actor who has never driven a car to do a chase scene, actually driving.


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## rgp (Oct 23, 2021)

My question about his is simply...... Why was the gun pointed at the young lady ? I mean didn't it have be for her to be shot  ? If the scene ws about him [Baldwins character] shooting a bad guy, wouldn't that be another actor ? Not a set director ?

Did the gun explode ? As such the projectile go WAY off target .

Speaking of the projectile, was it a true bullet ? It would almost have to be to pass through one person,and hit the other.


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## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> I think Bladwin has made action movies before so he should have a concept of gun safety even though an anti gunner.



How in the world can someone who makes money by portraying gun use be anti-gun?


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## Pepper (Oct 23, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> How in the world can someone who makes money by portraying gun use be anti-gun?


He's an Actor.


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## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Pepper said:


> He's an Actor.


Hence the word 'portray.' He makes money as an actor portraying gun use.

It's art, sure, but it glamorizes guns.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 23, 2021)

You're overthinking this, @AnnieA


----------



## Tish (Oct 23, 2021)

Okay, I am totally confused was it blanks or a real bullet?


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Pepper said:


> You're overthinking this, @AnnieA



Nope.  Not over thinking...it's an instinctive negative reaction to celebrity hypocrisy.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 23, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Nope.  Not over thinking...it's an instinctive negative reaction to celebrity hypocrisy.


He wasn't elected a celebrity.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Pepper said:


> He wasn't elected a celebrity.



Hypocrites come in all stripes from everyday people on.  'Do as I say, not as I do' pretty much sums it up.  An actor of Baldwin's stature committed to an anti-gun stance has plenty of opportunities to make money without glamorizing guns.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 23, 2021)

It's a Western.  I don't know the plot of 'Rust.'  Do you?


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Pepper said:


> It's a Western.  I don't know the plot of 'Rust.'  Do you?


No.  Guess he could be portraying a Marshall or Sheriff who is entitled by law to use a gun.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 23, 2021)

"The film's plot centers on Harland Rust (Baldwin), an infamous Western outlaw who has had a bounty on his head for as long as he can remember. When his estranged 13-year-old grandson Lucas (Noon) is convicted of an accidental murder and sentenced to hang, *Rust travels to Kansas to break him out of prison*."


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Pepper said:


> "The film's plot centers on Harland Rust (Baldwin), an infamous Western outlaw who has had a bounty on his head for as long as he can remember. When his estranged 13-year-old grandson Lucas (Noon) is convicted of an accidental murder and sentenced to hang, *Rust travels to Kansas to break him out of prison*."



So he's doing badass criminal with a gun.


----------



## rgp (Oct 23, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Hypocrites come in all stripes from everyday people on.  'Do as I say, not as I do' pretty much sums it up.  An actor of Baldwin's stature committed to an anti-gun stance has plenty of opportunities to make money without glamorizing guns.



That is why I couldn't care less about most actors ...... as long as they are making money ....., they have no agenda. However, the minute the camera goes off ........ they're quick to tell the rest of us how we must live.


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

rgp said:


> That is why I couldn't care less about most actors ...... as long as they are making money ....., they have no agenda. However, the minute the camera goes off ........ they're quick to tell the rest of us how we must live.



Yep.  I don't care what they portray on screen so long as they don't preach the opposite off stage.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

Tish said:


> Okay, I am totally confused was it blanks or a real bullet?


Press is saying a real bullet, and to have penetrated two people it would pretty much have to have been.  

But who knows how accurate these early press reports are...


----------



## win231 (Oct 23, 2021)

Tish said:


> Okay, I am totally confused was it blanks or a real bullet?


Real bullet.


----------



## rgp (Oct 23, 2021)

So, how & why, did an actual bullet get placed in a "prop" gun ?? Could someone even be that inattentive ? [accidental loading] ?? Why in the hell would real bullets even be on set ?

IMO, there is alot of missing information/hinky details missing, regarding the whole incident.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 23, 2021)

rgp said:


> IMO, there is alot of missing information/hinky details missing, regarding the whole incident.


Yep, we will learn more with time...


----------



## AnnieA (Oct 23, 2021)

Apparently an assistant director handed the gun to Baldwin and told him it wasn't loaded so there was some sort of miscommunication between the armorer and the assistant director.  Dunno how many people handled it between those two.

I still don't understand why it was pointed at the cinematographer or why Baldwin didn't follow basic gun safety guidelines such as not putting a finger on the trigger unless he had made the decision to shoot immediately.  Cannot imagine that he didn't know of instances in which people were harmed on set by blanks.


----------



## Della (Oct 23, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Didn't a Hollywood union renew their contract earlier this week? They weren't part of the same union?


I think you must be right.  What I read this morning sounded like the walk-out was the day of the shooting and union related, but what I read on CNN just now said this:

"Before Thursday's shooting, some crew members quit the production over concerns related to safety -- including gun inspections and Covid-19 protocols not being followed, according to the Los Angeles Times and other media reports.
Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times t*here were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday."


*
So this is sounding less like a freak mix-up and more like a criminally sloppy production.


----------



## Ruthanne (Oct 23, 2021)

It's obvious AB feels terrible about this.  I saw him hugging the deceased lady's husband.  It's so tragic and very sad.  Why do people always like to point the finger of blame before all that's needed to learn has been learned? 

I surely hope that this type of circumstances doesn't happen to anyone being so critical.


----------



## Trila (Oct 23, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59005500
> 
> Bad news, but I wonder how this could have happened twice, one died, one in the hospital...


That is a very good question....


----------



## Trila (Oct 23, 2021)

Bonnie said:


> A little about the woman that was killed ..
> 
> Originally from Ukraine, Halyna grew up on a Soviet military base in the Arctic Circle surrounded by reindeer and nuclear submarines. She holds a graduate degree in International Journalism from Kyiv National University in Ukraine and previously worked as an investigative journalist with British documentary productions in Europe.
> 
> http://www.halynahutchinsdp.com/bio


Thank you for reminding people that she is not just a statistic...she was a person, she had a family, she had accomplishments.....she had a story that was all her own.


----------



## Devi (Oct 23, 2021)

One assumes that they had the requisite insurance for filming a movie. Or is that information outdated?


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 23, 2021)

I haven't watched much on the news this weekend.  I assumed those who were accidentally shot by Alec were not actually actors participating in a scene.  Was Alec just playing around with the prop gun?  Why was it even aimed at these two people?  Even if he was goofing around, the more I think of it, it is odd that there would be more than one victim.  Would be nice to learn more about what actually happened here, please let me know if I'm missing something.


----------



## Shero (Oct 23, 2021)

Interesting to see how this runs. I like Alec B but he is known to be volatile and impatient. People walked off the set a couple of days before the death. So something must be really wrong with the arrangements there.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Oct 23, 2021)

Shero said:


> Interesting to see how this runs. I like Alec B but he is known to be volatile and impatient. People walked off the set a couple of days before the death. So something must be really wrong with the arrangements there.


I have nothing against Alec.  We all know he's somewhat of a hothead, but he's not a violent killer.  When I first heard this on the radio, I was shocked.  Told my husband he must feel terrible and will have to live with this accident forever.  I didn't pay much attention to people walking off the set, as I say, I haven't heard many details on this horrible accident.  It's a shame that something like this could even happen on a set, and I hope they see to it that it never happens again in the future.


----------



## Ruthanne (Oct 23, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have nothing against Alec.  We all know he's somewhat of a hothead, but he's not a violent killer.  When I first heard this on the radio, I was shocked.  Told my husband he must feel terrible and will have to live with this accident forever.  I didn't pay much attention to people walking off the set, as I say, I haven't heard many details on this horrible accident.  It's a shame that something like this could even happen on a set, and I hope they see to it that it never happens again in the future.


Well I didn't know he's known as a hot head.  Don't we all get pissed at times though...I know I do for one of that admits it.‍


----------



## Shero (Oct 23, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> I have nothing against Alec.  We all know he's somewhat of a hothead, but he's not a violent killer.  When I first heard this on the radio, I was shocked.  Told my husband he must feel terrible and will have to live with this accident forever.  I didn't pay much attention to people walking off the set, as I say, I haven't heard many details on this horrible accident.  It's a shame that something like this could even happen on a set, and I hope they see to it that it never happens again in the future.


I agree and I am sure he is heart broken. I love him in 30 Rock!


----------



## Jules (Oct 23, 2021)

rgp said:


> *Did the gun explode ?* As such the projectile go WAY off target .
> 
> Speaking of the projectile, was it a true bullet ? It would almost have to be *to pass through one person,*and hit the other.


You ask some good questions.  If it was an antique, it might have exploded - light touch of the trigger - poor condition  Do we know that it went through the second person?  If it was an explosion they could have been standing beside each other.  



rgp said:


> IMO, there is alot of missing information/hinky details missing, regarding the whole incident.


The media loves to pick up any bits that they can sensationalize.  Be damned with facts.


----------



## Della (Oct 24, 2021)

The gun did not explode.  It had a real live bullet in it and acted like all guns act when firing a bullet.

The single bullet went through the woman and shot the other person in his shoulder.

Baldwin was not goofing around, he was rehearsing a scene.  The scene called for him to shoot a gun toward the doorway of the wooden church.  The assistant director handed him the gun to use and called out "cold gun" meaning "not loaded."

The fault was with the assistant director who should have checked the gun before calling "cold gun" and who really shouldn't have been touching the gun at all.  The armorer is the only one who should touch the gun, and  the armorer is at fault for loading the gun in the first place.

As an actor, I don't think Baldwin is at fault at all, he was just doing his job, rehearsing a part. However he is also a producer of the movie and all the producers may be liable in civil suits for the lack of good safety standards on the set.


----------



## Victor (Oct 24, 2021)

win231 said:


> He must have been joking.  I have many of Cagney's old movies.  As a shooter, I can tell by the lack of recoil, there is no real ammo used.  In fact, NO movie or TV series uses real ammo.


Well maybe the directors told actors that it is real ammo to motivate their acting. Cagne y was not joking. Directors can make things up


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 24, 2021)

Victor said:


> Directors can make things up


In fact it is what they do best!


----------



## rgp (Oct 24, 2021)

My whole point is ....... LIVE rounds should not be on set in the first place. If that is followed, they cannot be mistakenly loaded into a gun.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 24, 2021)

rgp said:


> LIVE rounds should not be on set in the first place


You are right of course, something went very wrong here.  

It may take a while, but in the end I suspect we will find out what it was.


----------



## rgp (Oct 24, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> You are right of course, something went very wrong here.
> 
> It may take a while, but in the end I suspect we will find out what it was.



 Do ya think so ? .... I fear it over time will be swept under the rug .

Hope you're right.


----------



## win231 (Oct 24, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> You are right of course, something went very wrong here.
> 
> It may take a while, but in the end I suspect we will find out what it was.


It won't take a while.  An autopsy would quickly reveal exactly what killed the woman, even if they don't recover the bullet (which they usually can).  The wound channel will indicate everything - the shape of the projectile & the path & angle.  Plaster casts are made of the wound channel - a technique developed by Dr. Thomas Nogouchi many years ago - who was Los Angeles' Coroner.


----------



## win231 (Oct 24, 2021)

Sometimes, actors who are not familiar with firearms will undergo professional training with live ammo to familiarize themselves with gun safety & function.  I think it's a good idea.
Linda Hamilton trained with Israeli Military instructors before "Terminator" & Tom Cruise trained with Police Instructors for "Collateral."


----------



## Della (Oct 24, 2021)

Win, do you think it would ruin a movie for you if they used guns that weren't functional at all, say, real guns filled with plastic?  The sound men would have to add the bang and the special effects guys could add a flash.  I know I could not tell the difference, but for someone who knows guns would it seem fake?


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 24, 2021)

win231 said:


> Sometimes, actors who are not familiar with firearms will undergo professional training with live ammo to familiarize themselves with gun safety & function. I think it's a good idea.


Seems to me it should be a requirement.  If Baldwin had done so, and remembered and followed the safety parts this would have been avoidable.


----------



## win231 (Oct 24, 2021)

Della said:


> Win, do you think it would ruin a movie for you if they used guns that weren't functional at all, say, real guns filled with plastic?  The sound men would have to add the bang and the special effects guys could add a flash.  I know I could not tell the difference, but for someone who knows guns would it seem fake?


If they made it seem real, it wouldn't ruin a movie for me.  I've already chuckled at those old Westerns where they get 30 shots out of six shooters & older movies where guns never needed to be reloaded.
I've also noticed some bloopers in scenes that should have been redone, but maybe production costs were a concern.  Some of them were amusing.  Like this one in _"Dirty Harry:"_
 Watch carefully at the very end when "Harry" cocks the revolver & pulls the trigger to scare the suspect.  When a revolver is cocked & the trigger is pulled, the cylinder doesn't turn.  In that prop gun, you can see the cylinder turn - the gun's locking mechanism is damaged.  The director figured that blooper would be missed & he was right; even I missed it the first time I saw the movie. 





Also, that particular gun (S&W Model 29 in 44 Magnum) was in short supply at the time, so the gun used was actually a 41 Magnum specially built for the "Dirty Harry" movie series.  Same frame size.  They figured people wouldn't notice the 3 hundredths of an inch difference in barrel diameter.......but I did.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 24, 2021)

Baldwin is a smart guy with a lot of charm and talent.  He is also a bit of a jerk and a hothead.  None of that has anything to do with this horrible accident.  Enough has emerged to make it clear that Baldwin was not at fault.  Actors don't check the props they are handed.   I'm sure his grief is real and I feel sorry for him as well as for the poor cinematographer who was shot.


----------



## Jules (Oct 24, 2021)

Baldwin won’t be blamed for the shooting.  His production company will be for cutting cost corners, if the rumours are true.


----------



## Tish (Oct 24, 2021)

win231 said:


> Real bullet.


Thank you.


----------



## win231 (Oct 24, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Apparently an assistant director handed the gun to Baldwin and told him it wasn't loaded so there was some sort of miscommunication between the armorer and the assistant director.  Dunno how many people handled it between those two.
> 
> I still don't understand why it was pointed at the cinematographer or why Baldwin didn't follow basic gun safety guidelines such as not putting a finger on the trigger unless he had made the decision to shoot immediately.  Cannot imagine that he didn't know of instances in which people were harmed on set by blanks.


In order to fire a gun (whether it's loaded with blanks or real ammo), you have to pull the trigger.  In order to pull the trigger, your finger has to be on it.  When the director says _"Action_" the scene probably called for Baldwin to shoot.
He probably was aware that blanks can cause injury or death, but that's only true at very close range; almost contact distance.


----------



## WhatInThe (Oct 24, 2021)

Jules said:


> Baldwin won’t be blamed for the shooting.  His production company will be for cutting cost corners, if the rumours are true.


Also they said there were union issues including a walkout. Sounds like they were losing control of the set.

Supposedly that gun was being used for recreational shooting during down time? If true that weapon should've been given back to armor and she should've cleared/unloaded and got it ready for the next scene. I still wonder about the armor not giving the weapon to the actors directly.

I don't know if they lost control of the set or many of these practices are more common than they should be.


----------



## mellowyellow (Oct 24, 2021)

What a tragic accident, I feel sorry for everyone concerned.


----------



## Victor (Oct 25, 2021)

I don't understand why real bullets would be in the studio, at all? What use is it?


----------



## Irwin (Oct 25, 2021)

When real guns are used on a set, everyone should be required to take a gun safety class. It only takes a few seconds to check to see if a gun is loaded and if so, with what. This deadly accident could easily have been averted had they taken a few safety measures. 

I'd be willing to bet that training will be required in the near future. I would also think that there's a way to simulate a kick with a fake gun. Somebody just needs to invent it. They could even make a little plume of smoke come out. We put a man on the moon, for craps sake. Surely we can make a realistic looking fake gun.


----------



## Jules (Oct 25, 2021)

This gives a little more information.  Baldwin was sitting in a pew practising his quick draw.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/entertainment/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-shooting-monday/index.html

Also the assistant director who handed him the cold gun was previously fired on another set for careless behaviour re a gun. 

https://www.cnn.com/entertainment/l...n-10-25-21/h_8d709a2b77fdd9d815e5a5fd49b49ed6


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 25, 2021)

Jules said:


> careless


If it actually was a real bullet it seems to me something more than carelessness may have been involved.  As several have said there is no reason to have a real bullet on the set...  Just doesn't add up.


----------



## Jules (Oct 25, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> If it actually was a real bullet it seems to me something more than carelessness may have been involved.  As several have said there is no reason to have a real bullet on the set...  Just doesn't add up.


No, it doesn’t.  

On that second link I used the word ‘careless’ because the article isn’t clear what happened on that 2019 movie.  You’d think that someone who was fired from a job re a gun would be extra careful any other time.


----------



## raybar (Oct 25, 2021)

Irwin said (post #114), 
"This deadly accident could easily have been averted had they* taken a few safety measures*."

That's almost correct, but should read, 
"This deadly accident could easily have been averted had they* followed long established safety protocols." *


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 26, 2021)

@raybar what do you think about the reports that this was a real bullet, not a blank.

Is there any explanation for that?  Any non-nonferrous reason to have a real bullet on the set?


----------



## rgp (Oct 26, 2021)

Heard on the news last night ...... Some of the crew went "plinking" during a filming break, and it is believed that one of the guns was returned to the "table" with a live round in it.


----------



## raybar (Oct 26, 2021)

@Alligatorob 
Real or "live" ammunition should NEVER be present on set, as has been stated by several professional armorers in some of the articled linked above. No exceptions. 

@rgp 
I've seen those reports also. If true, that would be a major breakdown of safety rules. Again, there should never be live ammunition anywhere on or near the set, and the prop master or armorer should always be present and in personal control of his guns.

========== 

"Blanks" are easy to identify because there is no bullet in cartridge case. Either the end of the case is crimped or there is some "wadding" (typically paper) where the bullet would be. These are obviously not live rounds. 

In addition to blanks, there are also various types of "dummy" rounds which look exactly like live rounds, but contain no gunpowder and no primer charge. Most such center fire rounds I've seen had either a used, "dimpled" primer or no primer at all, and rimfire rounds had the usual mark on the edge. These are easy to identify, and are (or should be) used whenever the audience can see the cartridges, but not closely enough to see if the primer is missing or dimpled. For example cartridge belts or western gun belts. 

But there are also dummy rounds which really do look exactly like live rounds. These are used when the audience will see the cartridges up close, such as when a gun is being loaded in the scene, or the characters are handling ammunition for some reason. Live ammo should never be on set because if it's not there, it can't get confused with props, can't get into a gun, and can't kill anyone.


----------



## Devi (Oct 27, 2021)

Kirstie Alley On Baldwin Incident: ‘I Have Never Been Handed A Gun By An AD’
https://www.dailywire.com/news/kirs...ident-i-have-never-been-handed-a-gun-by-an-ad


----------



## jerry old (Oct 27, 2021)

We learn more and more each day.


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 27, 2021)

An interesting article on movie set gun safety https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59035488 .

It summarizes some advice published by the movie businesse's "Industry-Wide Labor-Management Safety Committee." https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/01FIREARMS.pdf :

Blanks can kill. Treat all firearms as though they are loaded
Refrain from pointing a firearm at yourself or anyone else
Never place your finger on the trigger unless you're ready to shoot
Anyone involved in using a firearm must be thoroughly briefed at an on-set safety meeting
Only a qualified person should load a firearm
Protective shields, eye and hearing protection should be used by anyone in close proximity or the line of fire
Any actor who is required to stand near the line of fire should be allowed to witness the loading of the firearms
Several layers of these rules had to have been violated.


----------



## raybar (Oct 27, 2021)

@Alligatorob

Here's Safety Bulletin #2: Special Use of Live Ammunition
Special Use of "Live Ammunition"

If you are interested, you can look around on the Contract Services web site ( csatf.org ) and see how much safety training is *required* to work on union shows. Look under "Training" and "Production Affairs & Safety"


----------



## Irwin (Oct 27, 2021)

Alec Baldwin is at fault. He was the one handling the gun so he's the one who should have checked to see if it was loaded, even if someone else checked it beforehand.


----------



## garyt1957 (Oct 27, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I agree with @Alligatorob . This is not a situation to poke fun at.


I agree,  but let's not forget Baldwin had a great time when Dick Cheney  shot a fellow hunter⁰


----------



## Alligatorob (Oct 27, 2021)

raybar said:


> Here's Safety Bulletin #2: Special Use of Live Ammunition
> Special Use of "Live Ammunition"
> 
> If you are interested, you can look around on the Contract Services web site ( csatf.org ) and see how much safety training is *required* to work on union shows. Look under "Training" and "Production Affairs & Safety"


Thanks @raybar, that is interesting.  The industry does seem to have well thought out and quite protective standards.  Obviously not always followed.


Irwin said:


> Alec Baldwin is at fault


I agree, however I don't think he is the only one...


----------



## rgp (Oct 28, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Alec Baldwin is at fault. He was the one handling the gun so he's the one who should have checked to see if it was loaded, even if someone else checked it beforehand.


I agree here !


----------



## WheatenLover (Oct 30, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Alec Baldwin is at fault. He was the one handling the gun so he's the one who should have checked to see if it was loaded, even if someone else checked it beforehand.


My husband said that the first rule of gun safety is to always assume a gun is loaded, and the second one is never point a gun at anyone unless you fully intend to shoot them. He taught me gun safety rules long ago when he took me shooting (at targets). A prop gun, since they are capable of holding live ammo and killing people, is not a toy.

He thinks Alec Baldwin is at fault, too, because he thinks Alec Baldwin has been around the block a time or two and knows about gun safety and the like. I don't know what Alec Baldwin actually knows about guns and gun safety, so I don't have an opinion. And frankly, I don't care. Not my monkey, not my circus. I didn't even think about gun safety rules, though, until my husband brought it up.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Oct 30, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I agree,  but let's not forget Baldwin had a great time when Dick Cheney  shot a fellow hunter⁰


I don't watch SNL but the man Cheney shot didn't die...correct?


----------



## Been There (Oct 30, 2021)

Tragic situation for sure. Someone needs to take responsibility.


----------



## garyt1957 (Nov 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I don't watch SNL but the man Cheney shot didn't die...correct?


Does it matter? It was a gun accident and Baldwin had a grand ole time with it. I'm sure the guy who got shot wasn't happy about it.


----------



## Alligatorob (Nov 1, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I'm sure the guy who got shot wasn't happy about it.


You think?

Not sure what happened to Cheney, but he was at fault, quite irresponsible, negligent at best.  Same as Baldwin.

Neither was a joking matter.


----------



## Butterfly (Nov 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> My husband said that the first rule of gun safety is to always assume a gun is loaded, and the second one is never point a gun at anyone unless you fully intend to shoot them. He taught me gun safety rules long ago when he took me shooting (at targets). A prop gun, since they are capable of holding live ammo and killing people, is not a toy.
> 
> He thinks Alec Baldwin is at fault, too, because he thinks Alec Baldwin has been around the block a time or two and knows about gun safety and the like. I don't know what Alec Baldwin actually knows about guns and gun safety, so I don't have an opinion. And frankly, I don't care. Not my monkey, not my circus. I didn't even think about gun safety rules, though, until my husband brought it up.



My dad and granddad taught me those same three rules when I was a kiddo.  And woe betide anyone who was caught disregarding them!


----------



## dseag2 (Nov 1, 2021)

I think Alec Baldwin is a brilliant actor but a miserable human being.  The drunken video ranting at his daughter proves this.  He even said to his wife in the shooting interview, "Excuse me!" when she was trying to talk.  Not surprising, since "Hilaria" is just as opinionated and self-obsessed as he is.  They are made for each other.  I do feel terrible for him due to the circumstances but I do think this is the end of his career.


----------



## Alligatorob (Nov 2, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I think Alec Baldwin is a brilliant actor but a miserable human being


Not an unusual combination, unfortunately...


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Nov 2, 2021)

I can't understand why any movie company would have an operating weapon a 100 miles from any set. There is absolutely no reason a prop gun needs to fire a real bullet. The fact that actors *will* be "shooting" at each other, you don't have operating guns on set. You don't even need blanks, you add sound, and effects in post production. They are going to do this, anyway.


----------



## kssf (Nov 2, 2021)

Do you suppose someone put the real bullet in there for some unknown reason but how do you prove this?  Wanting him to look bad - some people just do evil things.  Very tragic story.


jerry old said:


> This accidental shooting is not the event that sent my mind whirling with a sense of outrage.
> It's the number of attacks on my psyche that have occurred in the last three decades.
> The Wanton Killings, the theft of millions by banks and individuals with little or no punishment.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you are saying - we have two tiers of justice systems in this country - one for us and one for the elite crooks.  Nothing is being done about so many rapes, killings, etc and in CA and other places they are opening up the prisons - where is the outrage and where is the outrage for all these immigrants coming without proper vetting?  Some of them are carrying diseases we don't have here?  Some aren't even being checked for covid?  Where is the outrage - I am glad I am a senior and when my time is up glory alleluia.  I hope I get to go to heaven which will be better than living here on earth and seeing all these injustices.  Some senators are being threatened if they don't vote right - they will do anything to get the right vote.  We would be shocked if we really knew all the real details.  It is a very scary world now.  Sorry to be so negative - but I just see what I see - there are plenty of good people but the evil number is getting bigger every day because there is no justice done.  If a person gets punished for a crime then that would show me some encouragement.  But so far it's not happening.


----------



## win231 (Nov 2, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I can't understand why any movie company would have an operating weapon a 100 miles from any set. There is absolutely no reason a prop gun needs to fire a real bullet. The fact that actors *will* be "shooting" at each other, you don't have operating guns on set. You don't even need blanks, you add sound, and effects in post production. They are going to do this, anyway.


Movie production involves lots of "Down Time" where there is nothing to do.  A few days ago, a report said the actors were plinking during breaks.  For non shooters, "Plinking" is fun-type shooting at various objects - tin cans, etc.  Of course real ammo is used for plinking.
Whoever was in charge of firearms on that set didn't check the gun for live ammo before handing it to Mr. Baldwin. 
But you are right; there shouldn't have been any live ammo anywhere near the movie set.


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## Alligatorob (Nov 2, 2021)

win231 said:


> A few days ago, a report said the actors were plinking during breaks. For non shooters, "Plinking" is fun-type shooting at various objects - tin cans, etc. Of course real ammo is used for plinking.
> Whoever was in charge of firearms on that set didn't check the gun for live ammo before handing it to Mr. Baldwin.


It is sounding like this is the breakdown.  I am sure there is a lot of investigating going on to figure out the details of who did what.

I have been guilty of "plinking", but always checked the gun when I was done to be sure it was empty, and followed other basic gun safety.  As an adult anyway, have a long sad story about the first time I shot a gun, not safe at all, but luckily no one was hurt.  I was about 11 years old.

Even if Baldwin had not known about the plinking and was told the gun was safe he is still at fault for not checking the gun himself and for pointing at a person. Others may be guilty of worse, but that doesn't excuse what Baldwin did, nothing does.


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## garyt1957 (Nov 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It is sounding like this is the breakdown.  I am sure there is a lot of investigating going on to figure out the details of who did what.
> 
> I have been guilty of "plinking", but always checked the gun when I was done to be sure it was empty, and followed other basic gun safety.  As an adult anyway, have a long sad story about the first time I shot a gun, not safe at all, but luckily no one was hurt.  I was about 11 years old.
> 
> Even if Baldwin had not known about the plinking and was told the gun was safe he is still at fault for not checking the gun himself and for pointing at a person. Others may be guilty of worse, but that doesn't excuse what Baldwin did, nothing does.


I despise Baldwin but if you have someone on set who's job is to ensure the gun is safe and he tells Baldwin its safe I  don't think its Baldwin's responsibility to check it himself.  He's  a (bad) actor he may have no gun knowledge whatsoever.  I guarantee 99.99% of actors don't check their guns on set. This one just turned out badly


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 3, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Does it matter? It was a gun accident and Baldwin had a grand ole time with it. I'm sure the guy who got shot wasn't happy about it.


Well I do kind of think that death is a more serious consequence than an injury. This doesn't mean I condone making light of it. Like I said...I don't even watch SNL.


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## Sunny (Nov 3, 2021)

Hopefully, from now on there will be much stricter enforcement of gun safety in movies, TV shows, and plays. In this day and age, I don't see why real guns with real ammunition (blanks or not) still have to be used. Surely, we have the technology to simulate gunfire.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I despise Baldwin but if you have someone on set who's job is to ensure the gun is safe and he tells Baldwin its safe I  don't think its Baldwin's responsibility to check it himself.  He's  a (bad) actor he may have no gun knowledge whatsoever.  I guarantee 99.99% of actors don't check their guns on set. This one just turned out badly


That's right.  Besides, if actors are supposed to check guns, why would any movie production need to hire & pay gun experts to do it?


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## Irwin (Nov 3, 2021)

There was a story today theorizing that a disgruntled worker put live rounds in the gun to sabotage the production, which is what I thought might have happened. That's the only thing that makes sense, other than gross incompetence. We shall see.


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## Alligatorob (Nov 3, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I despise Baldwin but if you have someone on set who's job is to ensure the gun is safe and he tells Baldwin its safe I  don't think its Baldwin's responsibility to check it himself.





win231 said:


> That's right.  Besides, if actors are supposed to check guns, why would any movie production need to hire & pay gun experts to do it?


Look back to posts 124 and 125.  The movie industry has gun safety guidelines and Baldwin violated them.  These points are summarized from movie industry guidelines cited in the earlier posts:

Blanks can kill. Treat all firearms as though they are loaded
Refrain from pointing a firearm at yourself or anyone else
Never place your finger on the trigger unless you're ready to shoot
Anyone involved in using a firearm must be thoroughly briefed at an on-set safety meeting
There is no exception for actors having been told a gun was safe.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Look back to posts 124 and 125.  The movie industry has gun safety guidelines and Baldwin violated them.  These points are summarized from movie industry guidelines cited in the earlier posts:
> 
> Blanks can kill. Treat all firearms as though they are loaded
> Refrain from pointing a firearm at yourself or anyone else
> ...


Not quite. Rules 3 & 4 are valid in real life; not in movie production.   During movie production, it is necessary to point guns at others:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/25/opinions/film-set-guns-safety-brown/index.html

"It's not just about keeping the cast and crew safe when there are firearms present on set. We make sure people know the weapon itself is safe to use. *Once we inspect a firearm to make sure it is empty and ready to handle, we show it to both the actor who is going to work with it and any other cast members who may have the empty firearm pointed at them.* On film sets, the person most responsible for safety is usually the First Assistant Director, and as a result they will also inspect the firearm -- a task the director, producer, camera operator or cinematographer may oversee, too."


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## Alligatorob (Nov 3, 2021)

win231 said:


> Not quite. Rules 3 & 4 are valid in real life; not in movie production.


The rules I cited were written for and by the movie industry.


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## win231 (Nov 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> The rules I cited were written for and by the movie industry.


Well......The article's author has worked in the movie industry for years:  (in reality, you can't make a movie where people get shot without pointing guns at others).

_"Dave Brown is a firearms safety specialist and professional instructor based in Winnipeg Canada. Brown has trained military units, government agencies and police officers on safety and advanced firearms handling skills, has worked with hundreds of actors on film and theatre sets, and helped write the online training course on firearms safety for theatre and film technicians across North America. The views expressed here are his own. Read more opinion on CNN."_


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## Alligatorob (Dec 1, 2021)

A new twist:

Alec Baldwin: 'I didn't pull the trigger' of gun on 'Rust' set​https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview/index.html

Strange he waited so long to say so publicly.


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## win231 (Dec 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> A new twist:
> 
> Alec Baldwin: 'I didn't pull the trigger' of gun on 'Rust' set​https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview/index.html
> 
> Strange he waited so long to say so publicly.


Well, rehearsing with his attorney took some time.......


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## WheatenLover (Dec 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> A new twist:
> 
> Alec Baldwin: 'I didn't pull the trigger' of gun on 'Rust' set​https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/entertainment/alec-baldwin-interview/index.html
> 
> Strange he waited so long to say so publicly.


How did the bullet shoot someone if he didn't pull the trigger? Serious question.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> How did the bullet shoot someone if he didn't pull the trigger?


Very strange...


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## WheatenLover (Dec 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Very strange...


I just asked my husband, who knows a lot about guns, and he said it was impossible.

But I shot a gun once that had a hair trigger that I didn't know about. It felt like I hadn't pulled the trigger, like a vein had pulsed in my finger and the gun shot itself. I was target shooting using a lot of guns (30 or so) a friend had.

So if that gun turned out to have a hair trigger, I can sort of understand that he doesn't know he pulled the trigger -- if only slightly. But when my gun shot, I knew I'd pulled the trigger. There was no other way it could happen. But boy was I mad that the gun owner didn't warn me about the one gun he had with a hair trigger. That was an accident waiting to happen. I guess the guy figured my husband had taught me gun safety rules, which he had, so I wasn't brandishing the gun around.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 1, 2021)

On GMA this morning George Stephanopolous said that out of the thousands of interviews he's done, the one he recently did with Alec Baldwin was the most intense. The interview was 1 hour and 20 minutes long and will air as a special. I might just check it out.


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## win231 (Dec 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> How did the bullet shoot someone if he didn't pull the trigger? Serious question.


It can't.  They were filming a Western movie; that means Single-Action Revolvers.  To fire a Single-Action Revolver, first you have to cock it, (pull the hammer back) then pull the trigger:  If that's the type of gun Mr. Baldwin was holding, he would have to have fired it that way:


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## dseag2 (Dec 2, 2021)

I don't even care.  Alec Baldwin has proven that he is despicable human being.  Of course he is going to say he didn't shoot the gun.  Maybe his daughter will believe it, while he curses at her in a drunken rage.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 2, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> I just asked my husband, who knows a lot about guns, and he said it was impossible.
> 
> But I shot a gun once that had a hair trigger that I didn't know about. It felt like I hadn't pulled the trigger, like a vein had pulsed in my finger and the gun shot itself. I was target shooting using a lot of guns (30 or so) a friend had.


I shot my hot-water heater that way once.

I was buying an old revolver (spinner) from a friend. First, I laid it in my hand to feel it and look it over, then I took it up in my other hand to feel the grip, and then _bang! _~ the hot-water heater was badly wounded. (.22)

So apparently I touched the trigger but I don't remember feeling it. The friend was standing next to me and we were indoors, so we both wound up on our knees, covering our ears, bells ringing in our heads. Then he yelled "That thing's got a hair-trigger on it, you idiot! As if I'd know. 
(I _should_ have known; he almost always modified his guns)

Anyway, I traced the bullet through a screen door, the wall of a lean-to, and into my hot-water heater. Up near the top rim, fortunately, but I did replace it.


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## rgp (Dec 3, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I don't even care.  Alec Baldwin has proven that he is despicable human being.  Of course he is going to say he didn't shoot the gun.  Maybe his daughter will believe it, while he curses at her in a drunken rage.



 Agree here ...... and I'll add, how in the world did a revolver 'go off' if no one cocked it and pulled the trigger ?! If it is a repeater ? do they not have an even stronger trigger pull ?

 I surely hope the authorities aren't buying this BS !


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## dseag2 (Dec 3, 2021)

Hilaria (Hilarious) Baldwin.  Two narcissists who are made for each other.


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## dseag2 (Dec 3, 2021)

More about Alec Baldwin...


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## squatting dog (Dec 9, 2021)

The most definitive video explaining how this particular gun works. Note at the end when he says the possibility of a worn safety catch in the mechanism may cause it to fire. Seems like that would be easy to prove or dis-prove. Myself... I believe he had his finger on the trigger as most inexperienced or untrained shooters do.   
Please note that I'm not comfortable with the title of this video as there has been no forensic teardown of the weapon yet.


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