# In your opinion the Bible



## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction?  What are your reasons for believing as you do?  Please no insulting anyone's opinion.


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## hollydolly (Apr 3, 2015)

My opinion in a nutshell..and I mean in a complete nutshell..is that it's a  work of fiction, with a few elements of truth that may or may not have been exaggerated.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> My opinion in a nutshell..and I mean in a complete nutshell..is that it's a  work of fiction, with a few elements of truth that may or may not have been exaggerated.



Interesting Holly, I have similar beliefs.  I feel some elements may have either happened or been "envisioned" but 99% is fiction.  As to the apostles, we have potential peers here now, they will believe in any dogma presented convincingly by a strong speaker.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 3, 2015)

I believe it's fiction.   It's an assortment of chapters telling a story from the perspective of different authors.  It's got some good advise on how to live ones life.


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## hollydolly (Apr 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I believe it's fiction.   It's an assortment of chapters telling a story from the perspective of different authors.  *It's got some good advise on how to live ones life*.



Yes I do agree completely.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

Right.  Some common sense like the 10 commandments.


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## Josiah (Apr 3, 2015)

I think back in those days most of what got written down was non objective non fiction. Stories were told and retold and people believed them but didn't mind embellishing the story with the next retelling. What finally got written down had been told and retold and embellished countless times.


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## Cookie (Apr 3, 2015)

I've never actually read the entire Bible, just tried to read parts and I find it a jumbled mess of what seems to be history and fiction as well as basic life instructions.  Because it has been added to and changed so many times there is no way to know if any of it is true. To me it is really very bizarre, violent and superstitious.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

I've always wondered how many devout religious folks secretly question the Bible but honestly think they can hide the doubt from a "all knowing God"?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 3, 2015)

I believe that many do... but there can be huge guilt involved in admitting there is doubt.. and worse yet non-belief.   I remember as a kid being sent to Sunday school followed by a Church service from the time I was 4 until I was 16.  Even as a child I would think to myself..  "Seriously?  Do all these adults REALLY believe this stuff?" and feeling so bad for even questioning it.   I imagine many adults have never moved beyond that.


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## Pappy (Apr 3, 2015)

Mostly fiction. Much like the Indian folklores that are handed down from generation to generation. Isn't it human nature to tell a story and as the story is passed down, it gets a little different version each time? 
I have tried to read the Bible a few times but unable to make any sense out of it. I do believe there is something after death but have o idea what.


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## Bee (Apr 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I believe that many do... but there can be huge guilt involved in admitting there is doubt.. and worse yet non-belief.   I remember as a kid being sent to Sunday school followed by a Church service from the time I was 4 until I was 16._*  Even as a child I would think to myself..  "Seriously?  Do all these adults REALLY believe this stuff?"*_ and feeling so bad for even questioning it.   I imagine many adults have never moved beyond that.



I was actually expelled from Sunday School for questioning the Sunday School teachers on what they were teaching us.................I was told I was a disruptive influence.


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## ndynt (Apr 3, 2015)

How refreshing, to find so many that have the same view of the Bible.  Though I believe in a supreme being, have difficulty I with organized religion.  Even more difficulty, living in the bible belt, with the bible. Feel it expresses how events, with repeated retelling and embroidery, were percieved, but does not reflect anything that actually happened.  Word of man, not a God.


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## Falcon (Apr 3, 2015)

The hotel/motel business must believe it's worthwhile; They put one in every room !


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## hollydolly (Apr 3, 2015)

I haven't seen a Bible in any hotel room for many years..


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## Falcon (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, I have. Gideons puts them there.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 3, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> I haven't seen a Bible in any hotel room for many years..



You'll find them in US hotel rooms.

I think the bible is mostly fiction.


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## ndynt (Apr 3, 2015)

Everytime I am in the hospita, someone tries to give me one.  As with hotel/motel rooms, l think it is more evangelistic.


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## Cookie (Apr 3, 2015)

Aren't there many different Bibles out there, saying different things?  I find them that very confusing.


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## oakapple (Apr 3, 2015)

You will find them in all hotel rooms in Catholic countries.
By 'the Bible' are you all talking about the old or new testaments?We know that Jesus was a real person and that his disciples were real people too, and that he went about the country side preaching and meeting people, that he had a huge following and was executed after being tried by Pontious Pilate. you may question the miracles, but can't dismiss the rest.With the Old Testament, we also know there was some truth in the history of the Jewish people  and also events, but speculation as well, as in Genesis.All written by different people and at widely differing times.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

Falcon said:


> The hotel/motel business must believe it's worthwhile; They put one in every room !



Ooops. I see you previously posted it was the Gideons.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

oakapple said:


> You will find them in all hotel rooms in Catholic countries.
> By 'the Bible' are you all talking about the old or new testaments?We know that Jesus was a real person and that his disciples were real people too, and that he went about the country side preaching and meeting people, that he had a huge following and was executed after being tried by Pontious Pilate. you may question the miracles, but can't dismiss the rest.With the Old Testament, we also know there was some truth in the history of the Jewish people  and also events, but speculation as well, as in Genesis.All written by different people and at widely differing times.



I do question it all OA.


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## Josiah (Apr 3, 2015)

Holly, Motel 6 is a large chain of cheap motels in the US and a few in Canada. During our traveling days (about a third of each year) my wife and I stayed in Motel 6s and I never saw one without a Bible.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 3, 2015)

Very common in the USA!


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## oakapple (Apr 3, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I do question it all OA.


Well,having a questioning mind is a sign of intelligence AZ, however I was just pointing out that there is some truth in both the old and the new testaments.


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## hollydolly (Apr 3, 2015)

Used to be very common here too Jim...and perhaps the big chain hotels still do it, but I've stayed in hotels many many times on business here in the UK  and haven't seen  a Bible  in a long time..


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 3, 2015)

I take it as mostly fiction.  I've never read the whole bible like some have, but in my eight years in Catholic school, I read what I had to. Between that and what the nuns taught us, many things IMO had to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2015)

Some very simplistic views being expounded here.

The Bible as it is called is a collection of writings (books)  that contains different genres. It is not collated according to the time of writing either.

Fiction to my mind implies that someone dreamed the stories up from their imagination to entertain the reader. Some parts of the bible could fit into that category I suppose but more likely the purpose of the stories is to teach.

The mythological and legendary stories are very old and were transmitted from one generation to another by story tellers over maybe a thousand years to impart religious values and explain certain mysteries. Oral stories eventually become written down and then the fluid nature of the story disappears and it becomes fixed in time. These sections could probably be classified as fiction and the reader should look inside the story to see whether or not there is a kernel of truth to be found within. If the story is worth the telling and retelling, there will be something there.

Books such as Proverbs, Psalms and Ecclesiastes are known as the Wisdom books and could be considered to be philosophical writings. Is philosophy fiction? I would class it as instructional non fiction. Job is one long discussion on the existence and reason for human suffering a seen through an ancient theocratic mind set. It is allegorical.

The four Gospel books were all written within living memory of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth. They are based on some eye witness accounts and on some writings that are now lost. Each author writes for a different audience and accordingly emphasise different aspects of his ministry. How much is actual memory and how much is embellishment for the audience is for the reader to decide but within each story that is written down is something that the author thought was very important to pass on. Two thousand years later we need to apply our adult intelligence if we want to find meaning in the texts. With the parables this is relatively easy. Some other passages are more like a secret code for believers who were living under a tyrannical regime where subversive teaching could easily result in death. Christianity was/is a very subversive movement that challenges the rich and powerful.

As an illustration consider the story of Jesus walking on water. Obviously on face value it is a nonsense, but what if first century Christians understood that the boat that the fishermen were in actually is a metaphor for the Christian church in Rome and the storm that rocks the boat represents the persecutions that they were experiencing and the fear mentioned was very real. When Jesus appears walking across the water, Peter leaves the boat and walks towards him. He is doing something impossible in the face of great danger but then he realises the danger he is in and begins to sink. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Jesus rebukes him for his lack of faith and encourages him and the others in the boat to have faith so that they can become stronger, rise above their fear and go on to do the impossible.


I have seen a modern parallel of this story when I attended AA meetings. For an alcoholic abstaining from liquor seems as impossible as walking on water. However, those who place their faith in a higher power are more likely to be successful in achieving sobriety. Even though they may sometimes begin to sink, if they refocus and try again, trusting in something more powerful than their own will, they can do what they once believed to be beyond their capability. I've seen this with my own eyes.

Now compare this story with the story of Ali Baba and the forty thieves and ask yourself whether the two stories have a lot in common. Both could be considered as fiction, but which one has something important at its core?

Don't get me started on the story of Jonah and the whale. It has a very important message that has nothing to do with whales or big fish. It is about self righteousness and looking down on other races and cultures. Still relevant today.


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## Glinda (Apr 3, 2015)

Falcon said:


> The hotel/motel business must believe it's worthwhile; They put one in every room !



In western states you often see the Book of Mormon as well.


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## Glinda (Apr 3, 2015)

There's really no way for me to know whether it's fiction or non-fiction.  I do know that I don't consider it sacred.  If my conscience tells me one thing and the Bible tells me another, Bible goes bye-bye.


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## Kadee (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, it, must  say in there somewhere  where it's OK for the nuns in the catholic school I went to,bash the crap out of the kids, for trivial things like no one owning up who was talking in class while they were absent for a short period.... Then they go to church and read the bible...
That's my opinion of the the bible ...


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2015)

I suppose it does say somewhere, Proverbs maybe?, "spare the rod and spoil the child". 
I've heard similar ideas on this forum about how to deal with punks and gang bangers.

I was once caned for talking while the teacher was out of the room too but it was a public school. 
How did he know? My best friend ratted on me. 

In the 1950s such punishment was the norm. Nuns didn't have a monopoly on corporal punishment. 
Parents applied the razor strop to their own children, with or without the benefit of anything they may have read in the Bible.


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## Butterfly (Apr 3, 2015)

Well, I just got back from Good Friday Tenebrae service, so I'll let that speak for itself.  I'm a Lutheran.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2015)

I went to a Tenebrae service on Thursday night. It's a tradition at our church now.


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## Butterfly (Apr 3, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I went to a Tenebrae service on Thursday night. It's a tradition at our church now.



We have a Holy Thursday/Maundy Thursday service on Thursday before Good Friday, and the Tenebrae service on Good Friday.


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## drifter (Apr 3, 2015)

I think I agree with Josiah, then at some later date a religious conference agreed certain writings could be approved to be included with the proper edits in a authorized Bible. Some think these writings, this Bible divinely inspired. It's been a long time since I've had any religious training, but I have read the bible, all of it, and later in a three or four year study of the bible with a group of interested people, went through most of it again. All that means is I knew where to find something within its covers. I don't think the bible or religion as practiced today has anything to do with spiritual matters.


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## Warrigal (Apr 3, 2015)

Ben Hur has just started on the TV. 
Now this is fiction, not Holy Writ.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 4, 2015)

Kadee46 said:


> Well, it, must  say in there somewhere  where it's OK for the nuns in the catholic school I went to,bash the crap out of the kids, for trivial things like no one owning up who was talking in class while they were absent for a short period.... Then they go to church and read the bible...
> That's my opinion of the the bible ...



I had some of those and I think they were trained in the Irish laundries.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 4, 2015)

We've stayed in the airport hotel in Dubai a few times and they didn't have a Quran but they did have a prayer rug and instructions pointed to the direction of Mecca.


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## oakapple (Apr 4, 2015)

The things that your liable to read in the bible........it ain't necessaralily so!
However, as DW has pointed out, with the New Testaments, a lot of what was written about Jesus was done in the same lifetime, so we know that there was some truth about his life actually written down.
Those nuns at school had a good right hook didn't they?
was is a tenebrae service?


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## oakapple (Apr 4, 2015)

What, not was, is a tenebraetenebrae service(I make so many mistakes on this iPad!)


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## oakapple (Apr 4, 2015)

Doh!!!!


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## Warrigal (Apr 4, 2015)

> The word ‘tenebrae’ is Latin for shadows. The purpose of the Tenebrae service is to recreate the emotional aspects of the passion story, so this is not supposed to be a happy service, because the occasion is not happy. If your expectation of Christian worship is that it should always be happy and exhilarating, you won’t appreciate this service until the second time you attend it.
> The service was originally designed for Good Friday, but it can be used for Maundy Thursday as well. Both services have long scripture narratives, which for this service are divided into seven, eight, or nine parts, each one assigned to a different reader.
> 
> The service may include other parts, such as solemn hymns, a sermon, and Communion, but the core of the Tenebrae service works like this: It starts out with the church in candlelight. There are as many candles as there are readings, plus a white Christ candle. The readers go up one at a time, read their assigned selections, and extinguish one of the candles, until only the Christ candle remains. Then someone reads the first part of Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross. Then the Christ candle is put out, leaving the congregation in near total darkness—and near total devastation. At this point, the service ends. There is no benediction and the people leave in silence. (The lights are turned up but remain dim so that people can see their way out.)
> ...



It is not a service for everyone. It is reflective, meditative and deeply moving.


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## oakapple (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you DW for the explanation of the service, as I have not heard of this before.Yes, it does sound very moving.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 4, 2015)

I was raised Lutheran.. Missouri Synod..  I have NO idea what at Tenebrae service is..  I suppose it's just another name for a service on Good Friday..  Which I remember to be the same as described..  starting with candlelight and ending with blowing out the candles and everyone walking out of the dark church in silence..  Nothing new... just another name.


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## Underock1 (Apr 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I was raised Lutheran.. Missouri Synod..  I have NO idea what at Tenebrae service is..  I suppose it's just another name for a service on Good Friday..  Which I remember to be the same as described..  starting with candlelight and ending with blowing out the candles and everyone walking out of the dark church in silence..  Nothing new... just another name.



It was the same back in our church too. Same product with a new label. Quicksilver, you are the reason I am on here. I thought this was going to be a group of old, close minded uptights of my own generation. I happened to read a couple of your posts and was struck by your tone and knowledge of the subject.

My wife was raised Missouri Synod. Lots of "fear God" in that ritual. She joined my Congregational church where we brought up our kids. A long time ago. We were very active back then. Senior Deacon, Sunday school teacher, etc. Lost our belief over the years. The Bible is a mixed hash of much earlier religious ideas with some distorted history thrown in. It was written by iron age herdsmen who thought the world ended at their horizon and the stars could fall out of the sky. Whatever it is, there is no way I can see it as being the infallible word of God. If He/She/It wanted us to know the rules, there could not be a worse book to get the message across. You can find more wisdom in Mother Goose.


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## Butterfly (Apr 5, 2015)

I am Missouri Synod, and we are much more geared to Grace, rather than fear of God or guilt.


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## Debby (Apr 5, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Some very simplistic views being expounded here.
> 
> The Bible as it is called is a collection of writings (books)  that contains different genres. It is not collated according to the time of writing either.
> 
> Fiction to my mind implies that someone dreamed the stories up from their imagination to entertain the reader. Some parts of the bible could fit into that category I suppose but more likely the purpose of the stories is to teach..................Don't get me started on the story of Jonah and the whale. It has a very important message that has nothing to do with whales or big fish. It is about self righteousness and looking down on other races and cultures. Still relevant today.




Excellent explanation Dame Warrigal and I'd only add to that that it is 66 books written by different authors over the period of I think a couple thousand years and each book/letter contains a common thread of God, creation, love, salvation sometimes told through direct instruction or parables and the history of the Jewish race.


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## Lon (Apr 5, 2015)

I did a search for the web page of the largest church in my community (large by  number of members) and found what they believe in was not surprising, just interesting. All of my family and many of my friends belong to this church. I of course am the rebel.

[h=1]What We Believe - Unabridged[/h]
The Evangelical Free Church of America is an association of autonomous churches united around these theological convictions:
God
We believe in one God, Creator of all things, holy, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in a loving unity of three equally divine Persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Having limitless knowledge and sovereign power, God has graciously purposed from eternity to redeem a people for Himself and to make all things new for His own glory.
The Bible
We believe that God has spoken in the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, through the words of human authors. As the verbally inspired Word of God, the Bible is without error in the original writings, the complete revelation of His will for salvation, and the ultimate authority by which every realm of human knowledge and endeavor should be judged. Therefore, it is to be believed in all that it teaches, obeyed in all that it requires, and trusted in all that it promises.
The Human Condition
We believe that God created Adam and Eve in His image, but they sinned when tempted by Satan. In union with Adam, human beings are sinners by nature and by choice, alienated from God, and under His wrath. Only through God’s saving work in Jesus Christ can we be rescued, reconciled and renewed.
Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man, one Person in two natures. Jesus-Israel’s promised Messiah-was conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived a sinless life, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father as our High Priest and Advocate.
The Work of Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ, as our representative and substitute, shed His blood on the cross as the perfect, all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins. His atoning death and victorious resurrection constitute the only ground for salvation.
The Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit, in all that He does, glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ. He convicts the world of its guilt. He regenerates sinners, and in Him they are baptized into union with Christ and adopted as heirs in the family of God. He also indwells, illuminates, guides, equips and empowers believers for Christ-like living and service.
The Church
We believe that the true church comprises all who have been justified by God’s grace through faith alone in Christ alone. They are united by the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, of which He is the Head. The true church is manifest in local churches, whose membership should be composed only of believers. The Lord Jesus mandated two ordinances, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which visibly and tangibly express the gospel. Though they are not the means of salvation, when celebrated by the church in genuine faith, these ordinances confirm and nourish the believer.
Christian Living
We believe that God’s justifying grace must not be separated from His sanctifying power and purpose. God commands us to love Him supremely and others sacrificially, and to live out our faith with care for one another, compassion toward the poor and justice for the oppressed. With God’s Word, the Spirit’s power, and fervent prayer in Christ’s name, we are to combat the spiritual forces of evil. In obedience to Christ’s commission, we are to make disciples among all people, always bearing witness to the gospel in word and deed.
Christ’s Return
We believe in the personal, bodily and premillennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The coming of Christ, at a time known only to God, demands constant expectancy and, as our blessed hope, motivates the believer to godly living, sacrificial service and energetic mission.
Response and Eternal Destiny
We believe that God commands everyone everywhere to believe the gospel by turning to Him in repentance and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe that God will raise the dead bodily and judge the world, assigning the unbeliever to condemnation and eternal conscious punishment and the believer to eternal blessedness and joy with the Lord in the new heaven and the new earth, to the praise of His glorious grace.
Official Statement of Faith (with Scripture references)


[h=2]IM NEW HERE[/h]

SERVICES
WHAT WE BELIEVE
What We Believe - Unabridged

VISION & MISSION
OUR STAFF


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## Underock1 (Apr 5, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I am Missouri Synod, and we are much more geared to Grace, rather than fear of God or guilt.



A much happier direction, for sure. I attended a few of the services at my wife's church. I must have chanted "love and fear God" fifty times during each service. I can only say that my wife was riddled with guilt throughout her childhood, because she failed to pray one night for her grandfather, who died of a heart attack at work the next day.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 5, 2015)

My memories of Missouri Synod Lutheran was being preached at consistantly from the pulpit what miserable loathsome unworthy sinners we all are and that God knows what is in our hearts..  What message other than fear and punishment were we to take away?


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## Underock1 (Apr 5, 2015)

Lon, Its 2015. What can be said about that without offending?  I will just offer my personal opinion. Unbelievable.


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## Warrigal (Apr 5, 2015)

Lon, I would say that that credo is anything but 'free'.
Compare it with this vision statement for my congregation.
It was developed locally by the church attenders around 1999.
We don't bother with creeds because we all have different beliefs and don't impose uniformity.



> *OUR VISION*
> *
> CHURCH FAMILY *
> We value unity.
> ...


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## Underock1 (Apr 5, 2015)

Dame Warrigal,
I hope not to offend. I see in your church's "vision" a hope for a slow transition into a loving community of human beings providing compassionate support for each while slowly phasing out the worship of supernatural beings and the desperate pursuit of the unlikely goal of immortality. I remember very well, the wonderful feeling of community when attending church long ago. For me, the most important part of the service were the announcements of people"s marriages, births, deaths, etc.
We all knew and cared about each others lives. Its a good start.


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## Lon (Apr 5, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Lon, I would say that that credo is anything but 'free'.
> Compare it with this vision statement for my congregation.
> It was developed locally by the church attenders around 1999.
> We don't bother with creeds because we all have different beliefs and don't impose uniformity.



Your congregational vision statement is certainly more mild, but not one that could ascribe to.


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## Warrigal (Apr 5, 2015)

We're well down that track now, Underock. We do observe the traditions - baptism, communion, prayers, hymns etc but the preaching would shock many.
Google 'progressive christianity'  or look here http://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/ and you will see why. John Shelby Spong would be very at home among us.

PS It is impossible to offend me with an opinion. I'm progressive


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## Rob (Apr 8, 2015)

In my opinion, the Bible, the old testament at least, is an amalgam of tales, legends and apocrypha collected from many sources and times, translated through several languages and in some places self-contradictory and logically inconsistant. Parts of it offer good advice for living and parts of it are so violent that it is hard to believe it can be considered as being the word (and works) of any benevolent higher being. I think that much of it is allegorical and certainly cannot be treated as absolute 'truth'.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 15, 2015)




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## AZ Jim (Apr 15, 2015)

SB, You are my kinda girl....


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## Ameriscot (Apr 16, 2015)

Mine too!


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## Underock1 (Apr 16, 2015)

Jiminy Cricket: "When you wish upon a star, _makes no difference who you are"._ Now that's _my_ kind of fairy tale.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


>



I'm not comfortable*** with this comment because I have read many fairy tales, and not just the Walt Disney versions either, and have studied the Bible and they are not the same thing at all. People who confuse them have probably not done a lot reading of either.


*** Not having a go at you SB. This equivalence is often put forward but even at a merely literary level, it is a false equivalence. It's also rather glib.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I'm not comfortable*** with this comment because I have read many fairy tales, and not just the Walt Disney versions either, and have studied the Bible and they are not the same thing at all. People who confuse them have probably not done a lot reading of either.
> 
> 
> *** Not having a go at you SB. This equivalence is often put forward but even at a merely literary level, it is a false equivalence. It's also rather glib.




I think a much better word for the stories in the Bible are "Fables"   and of  course "parables"  But still only serving to teach a point... not to be taken literally.

from wiki

*



			Fable
		
Click to expand...

*


> is a literary genre: a succinct fictional story, in prose or verse, that features animals, mythical creatures, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature that are anthropomorphized (given human qualities, such as verbal communication) and that illustrates or leads to an interpretation of a moral lesson (a "moral"), which may at the end be added explicitly as a pithy maxim.
> A fable differs from a parable in that the latter _excludes_ animals, plants, inanimate objects, and forces of nature as actors that assume speech or other powers of humankind.


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

In the end, I am content to leave theology in the hands of the theologians, who with all due respect often seem more obsessed with how many angels dance on the head of a pin, than any message of  a loving God. In all fairness, I have also found this same arrogance among some atheists. What seems relevant to me is how to live my life. If I can find a personal map that encourages me to live authentically, with my heart open, embracing tolerance and compassion, and hopefully touching the lives of others in a positive way, that is enough. Love is a verb, something you do, without it, my life is meaningless, regardless of whatever religious/spiritual/atheist viewpoint I might espouse. With it, the rewards are priceless.


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## Debby (Apr 16, 2015)

As an ex-Christian, I think the Bible has lots of good lessons for us today.  All the bits about loving one another, not judging each other, reaching out a helping hand and refusing to get drawn into acts of revenge......all good stuff.  The problem is all the contradictory bits, like 'let's judge homosexuals', 'wipe out those who aren't like us' 'don't cast your pearls before swine'.....all judgements that negate the good and encourage us to cause great suffering.  

Currently my understanding runs along the line of there is a higher power, an organizing intelligence, an Other, a Source of all and I do believe that that Organizing Intelligence can inspire us both collectively and individually and has happened in Biblical times as well as current times.  For example, as I have explained (maybe whined about is a better turn of phrase ) my mother and I have a difficult relationship.  One day after a particularly rough telephone chat, I was feeling sorry for myself, yearning for the day when she would not be an issue in my life (and keep that between you and me) and suddenly I became aware of another different perspective on the issue.  That the grating, difficult human being who is my mom, was absolutely necessary for me to become the person that I am.  To learn the lessons that I have (patience with my children, let them find their own way as I support them emotionally, to not try and control who they are,  to buy black socks instead of white ones and then NOT force them to scrub them by hand before throwing them in the washing machine.....)  She's been like a sanding block that is helping to remove some of my rough edges as I see what to do and what not to do from her example. 

I believe that was inspired by the Organizing Power because it over-rode my own human pity party and dislike with a new understanding of how important my mom was to my development to where I am today.  It was a thought that provided benefit to both her and I and therefore I believe it was inspired/inspirational.

The problem with the Biblical perspective is, it has also included, along with the 'inspired parts'  that are good, the human condition which is comprised of not only random good impulses but our fears which translate into evil too often.  Otherwise, how can you explain the apparent and obvious contradictions.  How can you have a God who loves everyone because He is our Father Creator and also a 'jealous God who will fry you if you don't comply with His rules where we've been given (free will)' to make that very choice?  Was it really 'God' who inspired those thoughts/writings or is that the humanity of us, creeping in and becoming accepted because it not only accepts but encourages our most base instincts which by the way, is what we are supposed to be overcoming or evolving away from.

I think I can easily say that I started becoming an 'ex-' when I was finally willing to face those contradictions and doing so freed me to begin opening up to become more like the 'heart of God'.


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## Georgia Lady (Apr 16, 2015)

I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God.  It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.


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## Debby (Apr 16, 2015)

Georgia Lady said:


> I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God.  It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.




So what do you do with the negative stuff?  Just curious and if you don't want to answer that's okay.  But I remember when I was a Christian my method was to simply ignore it or to try and figure out how to justify it/them through the lens of human understandings.  Like how can a God who created every human, who weeps if even a sparrow falls, tell His followers to go in and commit genocide ---an example in modern times would be like the thinking about the Asian Carp which are taking over the lakes of North America, if you let one live, it will start the evil all over again.......and so it must be okay to wipe them all out.  And after I justified these kinds of 'commands of God' with that last thought, it became easy to ignore it after that and reapply that thinking to other instances and other contradictions.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 16, 2015)

I think this is what drives so many away from Christianity...  It's the negative and sometimes violent messages put out there as the "Word of God".   As you pointed so eloquently Debby,  so much of it is contradictory..   God loves us like a father, yet would condemn us to horrible anguish and suffering..  WHAT kind of "Father" would do that?  Child abusers... that's what kind.. there is no comfort in believing in a God like that.. and this is what turns so many people away from organized religious and toward kinder and more nurturing beliefs.  I've never been able to find a way to ignore the negative aspects.


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## Underock1 (Apr 16, 2015)

Georgia Lady said:


> I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God.  It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.



Georgia Lady, How do you know who is a false prophet? How do you know that the person who wrote that was not one?
I often read comments stating that when Satan comes "He will deceive you by his good works". By that instruction, every person who does a good deed becomes suspect of being evil. It seems rather hard to make the world a better, happier place using those guide lines.
Just my own thoughts.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

Underock, it is foolish to think that a single verse is the end all and be all that you can rely on.

How do you pick a conman in general? It's a combination of instinct and experience.
Same applies to sussing out a "false prophet". I've seen quite a few tele evangelists that I would label as false proclaimers of the gospel because of their self indulgent lifestyles. I guess I'm saying that what comes out of their mouths is incongruous with their actions and lived values.

However, many people do listen to them.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 16, 2015)

Georgia Lady said:


> I make my own interpretations of the Bible through prayer and reaching out to God.  It says in the Bible to not listen to false prophets.



Of course the bible say not to listen to "false prophets".  They were thinking when they wrote their "control document" about some who would inevitably begin to question their "operation".  Didn't want any free thinkers, just the sheep they already had rounded up.  I hope not to offend but frankly the bible offends me.  My normal mode is do your own thing with religion and I'll do mine.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

> They were thinking when they wrote their "control document" about some who would inevitably begin to question their "operation".  Didn't want any free thinkers, just the sheep they already had rounded up.



????? "They" ??? This sounds like you think that the scriptures were written down with deliberate intention to deceive by a powerful elite. Most of the books are actually quite critical of the powerful sections of society. Kings and religious leaders do not escape criticism and condemnation. The disciples of Jesus are often depicted as being a bit thick. If I was making it all up to manipulate people I think I would do it quite differently.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> My normal mode is do your own thing with religion and I'll do mine.



That's the way I feel too Jim, whatever works for the individual, free choice on what to believe.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> ????? "They" ??? *This sounds like you think that the scriptures were written down with deliberate intention to deceive by a powerful elite*. Most of the books are actually quite critical of the powerful sections of society. Kings and religious leaders do not escape criticism and condemnation. The disciples of Jesus are often depicted as being a bit thick. If I was making it all up to manipulate people I think I would do it quite differently.



DM, I DO think exactly that.  Now, each of us over the years have made  up our own minds about the disciples but I believe they were part of a conspiracy with  other like minded people to control the population.  It's not a new idea  now, but it probably was then.  I am sure they felt threatened by non  believers and felt the need to reflect the rules of how they should live  in order to achieve the prospect of heaven.   As I said, I have no  quarrel with anyone about THEIR belief but I demand the right to mine.   Nothing I have said should have any affect on our relationship as I  assure you and others I am in no way concerned with other opinions.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

> I am sure they felt threatened by non  believers and felt the need to reflect the rules of how they should live  in order to achieve the prospect of heaven



Would those non believers be the Romans who were intent on wiping out a new sect of Judaism? I'd feel threatened under those circumstances and I'm not sure that even the most charismatic preacher would have been able to convince me that heaven later would be worth martyrdom in the arena right now.

One of the greatest mysteries to my mind is the endurance of the Christian message beyond the death of a Jewish rabbi from Nazareth. What were the odds back then? Mind control can only do so much. Do you really believe that a book of stories is more powerful than persecution, torture and death? If it is, then the authors of the stories are truly literary geniuses.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 16, 2015)

DW, I see no need to continue this.  You and I have different opinions on the subject and let's just decide that is OKay and let this go.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

mg: You are threatened, or else you are holding back trying not to offend me.
I cannot be offended on this or any other subject as long as we are only discussing ideas.
I assure you that I am not trying to do more than that.

However, I will cease and desist because you have the right to be left alone with your thoughts.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I'm not comfortable*** with this comment because I have read many fairy tales, and not just the Walt Disney versions either, and have studied the Bible and they are not the same thing at all. People who confuse them have probably not done a lot reading of either.
> *** Not having a go at you SB. This equivalence is often put forward but even at a merely literary level, it is a false equivalence. It's also rather glib.



I'm sorry if you were offended by that, nothing personal.  Keep in mind, it's really not a comment, just a joke representing my opinion (and many others) of the bible, which is what this thread is about.  It shouldn't be dissected and taken so seriously, I have no interest in debating or changing anyone's opinions.  I have respect for everyone's own choice to believe what they want when it comes to following any religion, that is their personal right to do so.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

Not offended at all SeaBreeze but I've heard the fairy tale line too often to just let it pass. 
I suspect that a lot of people who use it have never really read many fairy tales in their original form.

There was a reference to Jiminy Cricket earlier but that is Walt Disney. 
How many people have actually read a translation of the fairy story novel _The Adventures of Pinocchio _by the Italian writer Carlo Collodi?
The novel has much more depth than the animated film and for this reason I wouldn't dismiss fairy tales too quickly.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm not offended. Here is my proof.


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## koala (Apr 16, 2015)

I am not here to knock your posts far from that.Also I am not here to sell the Bible or sway you one way or the other to read the book, that is your decision.
However when the Bible is discussed unless the person has read the book or at least the New Testament it is very hard to discuss on a forum. It is like discussing a movie when the person has only seen the trailer or judging a book by the title or reading the back cover comment by a newspaper.
Also when a bible is researched and read, it is best for it to be done in a group sometimes called Bible Study, but at least one member of the group should be fully able to offer reasons and explanations on the readings or have the ability to come back to the next meeting with the missing answers.
This is similar to book clubs where people sit around discussing a new book release over a coffee to understand the book.


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## Underock1 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal, 
I'm the one who mentioned Jiminy Cricket, more specifically "When You Wish Upon a Star". The point I was trying to make is  that prayer, and wishing upon a star are equally effective. The line in the song; "makes no difference who you are" is much more inclusive than anything the Bible has to offer. If I am going to be asked to believe in a supernatural being who is personally interested in me, I much prefer the Blue Fairy, to the psychotic old man portrayed in the Bible. Just putting out my personal thoughts here. We are all different.


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## Warrigal (Apr 16, 2015)

Underock, you have opened up a number of discussion points


Underock1 said:


> I'm the one who mentioned Jiminy Cricket, more specifically "When You Wish Upon a Star". The point I was trying to make is  that prayer, and wishing upon a star are equally effective.


If there is no God, my position when I was an atheist, then there is equal effect from both actions. That effect is zero because both are merely superstitious behaviours.
However, if someone is convinced of the presence of an interactive God then the two are certainly not considered to be equivalent. Maybe for God it makes no difference, since there are myriad ways that people express the longing of their hearts but for people of all traditional faiths prayer and wishes are very different. I'll grant you that some prayers seem quite weirdly superstition, even to other people of faith. Burying a statue of St Joseph in the garden comes to mind, but hey, if God is paying attention, who knows? To me all prayer is mystery and calls for some faith on the part of the person praying. Jesus had quite a bit to say on this subject, all of it encouraging.



> The line in the song; "makes no difference who you are" is much more inclusive than anything the Bible has to offer. If I am going to be asked to believe in a supernatural being who is personally interested in me, I much prefer the Blue Fairy, to the psychotic old man portrayed in the Bible. Just putting out my personal thoughts here. We are all different.



We sing a song in church that begins "Come as you are, that's how I want you". It is about as inclusive as you can get. 

Reading the Bible requires a sense of history. The Old Testament stories are quite horrifying in the degree of exclusiveness that they contain. They are the stories of a tribal people. However, in the OT there is a strong social justice theme which Jesus uses to open out to people considered beyond the pale for orthodox Jews - women, prostitutes, tax collectors, people with skin diseases and foreigners. The development continues with the Letters to the early Christian churches where outsiders, Gentiles who were Roman, Greek, Syrian, Egyptian etc are welcomed into the sect. The sect had to change to accommodate them and the laws and practices that promoted exclusivity were swept away. Unfortunately, later centuries tended to reimpose some more exclusive practices. Humans have a tendency to regress from time to time.

The psychotic old man? Is that the only image of God that appears in the Bible? What about the father of the repentant delinquent son, or the shepherd who searches for the lost sheep, or the image of the suffering servant? Each image comes with a point about the nature of God, which nevertheless remains a mystery but each one speaks of a loving nature.


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## Underock1 (Apr 16, 2015)

Dame Warrigal,
I can not deny the accuracy of your comments. I do find them to be rather selective.
 Whether someone prays to a God or wishes on a star, as you admit yourself, the result is zero. Whether the prayer is convinced of God or not has no effect on the outcome. The prayer and the wisher are both hoping to benefit from a supernatural agency for which there is no evidence. They both seem equivalent to me.
We used to sing that hymn when we went to church too. No one is arguing about there not being _some_ excellent lessons in the Bible. Back when I attended, constantly heard all about love thy neighbor, cast not the stone, the good Samaratin, the mote, etc. The Beatitudes? Great! Somewhere along the line, Jesus lost out to John of Patmos. Now its all about get that ticket to Heaven or else. Unfortunately the actions of a major segment of Christians in the US are anything _but_ inclusive.
As far as that psychotic old man; He's hard to dismiss. He presumably is all knowing, set us all up to be sinners, then sends his "Son" to be tortured to death, ( except its really Him, so He's not really dead ), in order to "save" us. Except we aren't saved unless we believe in Jesus. If you don't, its _eternal _torture for you. Sounds pretty certifiable to me. Just my own opinion of course.


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## Warrigal (Apr 17, 2015)

My thoughts in blue.



Underock1 said:


> Dame Warrigal,
> I can not deny the accuracy of your comments. I do find them to be rather selective.
> In my own defence, I was responding to issues that you yourself had raised.
> 
> ...


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## Underock1 (Apr 17, 2015)

Well we're not so far apart, Dame Warrigal. Anyone who is uncertain about it all is all right with me.
 I have always been interested in ants. I was watching one many years ago, and it occurred to me that that ant believes the entire world is that small patch of dirt and grass. She goes about her business, scavenging for food, and thinking all she has to worry about are rival ants and predatory insects. She has no conception that I am there, and could end her life with my foot in an instant. We _think _we know it all.


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## Warrigal (Apr 17, 2015)

At my age I've stopped knowing it all. 
 I'm happy now to hold fast to a few things that I have personally discovered to be valuable.
Among these are the values that I hold most dear. 

 I like the ant analogy and it is something that I too have pondered from time to time.

PS Last Sunday we had our monthly communion service and one of the participants was a Hindu man.
No, he isn't being converted. He's married to one of our young women and he's included like anyone else who approaches the table.
When they married they had a ceremony in our church followed by a Hindu one.

PPS Why are you still awake at this ungodly hour? Can't sleep?


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## Underock1 (Apr 17, 2015)

Nothing wrong with those values. I well remember the wonderful feeling of community, standing in church with my family and friends. We all cared about each others lives. The important part of the service for me were the notices of births, deaths, weddings. I served as the Senior Deacon, and tried to believe, but it never took with me in any passionate way. I can remember starting off prayers with "If you're really out there.." History and science have been a life long interest. Combined with my personal observations of the world, I find it impossible to believe these days. While I see the benefits for people from religion, I also see the vast harm that it causes.          
You are correct. I can't sleep. Discovering this forum has helped with horrendously long nights. I no longer have any responsibilities, so I make it up in the morning. Well, I'm back to bed, shortly to be back to the toilet. Have a nice day.


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## Warrigal (Apr 17, 2015)

Sleep tight.
Don't let the bed bugs bite.


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## JaniceM (Jul 29, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction?  What are your reasons for believing as you do?  Please no insulting anyone's opinion.



My belief:  The Bible is one very long historical narrative, consisting of some fact, more parables, and a lot of personal viewpoints.  
My reasons:  Upon learning more about Bible history, who wrote the various books, and when and where, and for whom, is one of the most important points.  It also accounts for a lot of the contradictions.


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## Anomaly 73 (Jul 29, 2017)

Underock1 said:


> Dame Warrigal,
> I'm the one who mentioned Jiminy Cricket, more specifically "When You Wish Upon a Star". The point I was trying to make is  that prayer, and wishing upon a star are equally effective. The line in the song; "makes no difference who you are" is *much more inclusive* than anything the Bible has to offer. If I am going to be asked to believe in a supernatural being who is personally interested in me, I much prefer the Blue Fairy, to the psychotic old man portrayed in the Bible. Just putting out my personal thoughts here. We are all different.



Well said Underock. I subscribe to the *most inclusive* theory...*Nature* as God and us as it's tools. I actually believe she is trying (through evolution) to become coherently manifest in our being. So far, we've managed to create a situation where we are approaching Utopia and Armageddon at an equally rapid pace...and waiting for our successors to arrive. Through artificial intelligence or genetic engineering...we're about to create them. Let's hope they have some answers for us.


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## Knight (Jul 29, 2017)

An opinion based on not reading the bible or one of the many versions is as valid as anothers with the same input. But if a person has read and compared events that are documented and listed those side by side to show why they believe one way or the other I would be interested in that.


So my opinion is based on not reading the bible but taking some of the more known claims like Noah's life span, or our planet being created & populated by a sentient being that would have to be over 4 & 1/2 billion years old.  I'm not even sure it could be used as a moral guide since referring to a sentient being/maker as benevolent and turning some poor woman into a pillar of salt isn't my idea of benevolent.  

Short answer
I think the bible was written when there was no science to explain what was not understood.




I do like the story of Jesus coming across townsfolk about to stone a woman. Upon seeing that Jesus was heard to say. Let those amoung you without sin cast the 1st. stone. WHAM the woman was hit with a stone. Jesus next words were. Mother sometimes you make me so mad.


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## exwisehe (Jul 29, 2017)

Interesting comments, and I can see that the Bible is held up by many here as being the subject of many varying beliefs.  I'm not saying anything to dissuade you or sway you one way or another.  

Just something for you to consider while lying in bed tonight. (after this I'm hitting the sack myself)

A few weeks ago, many of you responded to a post about an interesting topic concerning the RFID Microchip implant being used by a company in Wisconsin. (this is relevant to the topic at hand – since it concerns the authenticity of the Bible)

Since I have been interested in this topic also, I read the posts and was very interested in the many comments.  As I was looking up more information on the subject, I checked with Wikipedia, which I often do to get a quick summary of the relative points. 

Suddenly a statement jumped off the page at me.  I had read something in John’s Revelation in the Bible that sounded glaringly familiar.  As many of you know from my previous posts, I read scripture regularly.  

This is what it was:  “*Critics contend, however, that the technology could lead to **political repression as governments could use implants to track and persecute human rights activists, labor activists, civil dissidents, and political opponents; criminals and domestic abusers could use them to stalk and harass their victims; slaveholders could use them to prevent captives from escaping; and child abusers could use them to locate and abduct children….”*
https://mod3rnmedia.com/2017/07/25/...technology-being-used-on-wisconsin-employees/  (scroll down about a page to see it)

Compare this with Rev 13:16 which says:   *He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[SUP][f][/SUP] the name of the beast, or the number of his name*. (rev 13:16)

That’s pretty impressive when one realizes that these words were penned by John the apostle close to the year 95 AD and who was, by all authorities in his 90’s. This was during Domitian’s Reign of Terror (he was assassinated in 96 AD)

My question:  How can any of you not say that’s a pretty darn good forecast from one who made it 1900 years ago?  Would any of you make a forecast of what will be available in just 50 years from now? (me neither) Conclusion: the Bible is more than a collection of outdated platitudes.


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## drifter (Jul 29, 2017)

I suppose I could pretty much agree with JaniceM. As a historical document it's not much, as a basis for faith it is all encompassing.


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## HiDesertHal (Jul 30, 2017)

Of course it's Fiction!

But nevertheless, it presents examples for living a decent, proper life.

HDH


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## Trade (Jul 30, 2017)

I've read it. It's a story book, and as story books go I've read better. I prefer Stephen King's Dark Tower series.


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2017)

Fiction/non fiction is too restrictive to classify the various books contained within the covers of the bible.
To determine that it is all one or the other is to misunderstand the purpose of the different books.


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## Linda W. (Jul 30, 2017)

Most likely it's pretty much fiction.


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## terry123 (Jul 31, 2017)

I believe in a Supreme Being and that I am a spiritual being having a human experience.  I am of the Episcopal faith with a lot of Unity church teachings.  I don't attend Church like I used to mainly because I don't drive as much.  I don't feel the need to "convert" or prove my faith to anyone. Everybody has to find their way and mine isn't for everybody.  My faith is very personal and I do my meditations, devotionals and prayers in private.  I did discover that the Episcopal church I want to attend has a program to help people who have problems driving to attend services. So I will now be able to go and take communion with others.  I have so much to be thankful for and I give thanks each day for everything God has given me.  I walked around with a time bomb in my head for 50 years before it ruptured and the day I was to be taken off life support I came out of my coma.  Funeral arrangements were being made as my family was assured I could not survive any longer. I was in a medically induced coma for 6 weeks until I said good morning to the doc who was getting ready to unhook me.  That's how I wound up here in Houston as I had to have AGGRESSIVE  rehab.  I was finally able to go back to work full time and worked for 10 years until the office was laid off and none of us wanted to move to St. Louis.  So yes my faith was reinforced with that experience.  Still had more episodes with that aneurysm and 2 more procedures but for the past 5 years okay except for a few handicaps that I can live with.


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## Sunny (Jul 31, 2017)

The Bible is a hodgepodge of truth and fiction, exalted philosophy and dire threats designed to scare the people into obeying the religious authorities, family histories and financial records, fairy tales such as Adam and Eve in the garden (they had two sons, one killed the other, then somehow, grandchildren mysteriously appeared even though Adam, Eve, and Cain were supposedly the only living people on earth) and the story of Noah, you name it.  Much of it is utter nonsense, of course; it boggles the mind that in this day and age there are people who literally believe what is written there as opposed to the findings of modern science.

Even the Ten Commandments - "Honor the Sabbath" is right up there with  "Thou shalt not kill?"  I wonder how many believers have ever  really given it some serious thought?  (For instance, Leviticus tells us  to kill those who do not honor the Sabbath properly.)

One story in the Bible that I do like, and sort of believe, is the story of Joseph and his brothers. It contains no supernatural interventions; it's a completely human story.

I wonder if the Bible was an early version of the Internet, with everybody getting his two cents in, regardless of truth vs. fiction?


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 31, 2017)

I am an atheist so.... 
I think the Bible is work of fiction, and historical myth.


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## HiDesertHal (Jul 31, 2017)

I don't think any oceanographer will go along with God "spitting out" the seven seas during "creation".

hdh


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## fuzzybuddy (Aug 1, 2017)

If you believe the Bible is the root of your faith, then that's what you believe. If you believe science to be fact, then that's what you believe. So each believer in the Bible has to reconcile the facts from the Bible with facts from Science.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2017)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If you believe the Bible is the root of your faith, then that's what you believe. If you believe science to be fact, then that's what you believe. So each believer in the Bible has to reconcile the facts from the Bible with facts from Science.



The bible is not the root of my faith - it is a collection of books that are useful for teaching and I do not read it literally.

I don't regard science to be fact - science is a body of knowledge that has been arrived at using the scientific method, and it is growing exponentially and constantly revising itself. Bible scholarship, as distinct from bible study, has a lot in common with some branches of science.

Reconciling things that appear contradictory requires a certain degree of intellectual maturity and some insight. 
Living with uncertainty requires a degree of patience.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2017)

HiDesertHal said:


> I don't think any oceanographer will go along with God "spitting out" the seven seas during "creation".
> 
> hdh



Where on earth did you hear this proposition? It isn't in either of the creation myths in Genesis.


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## Butterfly (Aug 1, 2017)

I am a practicing Lutheran and my faith is founded in the Bible.


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## HiDesertHal (Aug 1, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I am a practicing Lutheran and my faith is founded in the Bible.



I was baptized a Luthran in 1948.

While living with my parents, I went to church whenever they did, but never on my own in later life.

I don't go to church because the Sermons are too boring.

My wife is a Catholic and I'm a Protestant.  The way we resolve our different faiths is not to go to church at all!

In the 23 years that we've been married, we have never been to a church, and God Willing, we never will!

HiDesertHal


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## Ponderer (Aug 4, 2017)

ha! Only took an hour to figure out how to post.
Bible as fiction or nonfiction. 
I have been on several facets of this question during my years. It is not two sides but many sides like a cut diamond.
As a young person - bible as absolute truth was incredulous.
I became a believer in the work of Christ at age 20. Yet still was reserved on complete non-fiction view of Bible. I believe many people in churches are reserved on this facet. How could this book be without error when written by people?
I was confronted with this thread's question in my 30's. Since I believed and had a personal relationship with Jesus, is it reasonable that He communicates and reveals himself to me by way of the Bible? Over the last 30 years I have come to appreciate that the Bible is in fact God's word spoken through people. The original documents have been lost. But, the documents we have today are in fact faithful renderings of the original God inspired writings of the past. It is based on God himself and His capacity to work through people.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 5, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction?  What are your reasons for believing as you do?  Please no insulting anyone's opinion.


Yes, the Bible is a work of fiction because it is based on oral traditions that may have come forward after 100,000 years.  In other words, when man discovered writing he wrote down the oral memories of generation after generation.  So it wasn't like a reporter telling a story he took notes on while present at ball game.  These oral traditions are also colored by archetype images that were common to people all over the planet.  Dr. Carl Jung thought people lived through these archetypes which seemed like the only instinct of man.  Dr. Jung's theories are still accepted today.  

Now here comes another problem for the Bible in Genesis.  I already established that the Bible was based on oral tradition. Also this is describing perhaps the most momentous time in human history: When human beings were becoming sentient.   But the book of Genesis holds an exact picture of the creation of the universe as it seems to describe the big bang.  "Let there be light".  So here is the question.  If the Bible is based on oral tradition from perhaps 100,000 years ago.  And the writers of the Bible are rendering a good description, how did people who barely had knowledge and could barely think come up with the big bang?  All they could have known about were the sun, moon and the stars in the milky way.  Who imparted knowledge of the big bang and other things to early man.

Yes, the Bible is fiction by definition, but the source remains unknown.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 6, 2017)

AZ Jim said:


> Is the bible a work of fiction or non-fiction?  What are your reasons for believing as you do?  Please no insulting anyone's opinion.


The bible is a work of fiction because it does not report the facts as they occurred.  The bible is the written history of tribal oral tradition that went back thousands of years.  In Genesis the bible is relating what may be the most momentous time in human history.  It is talking about the evolution of human sentience.  Adam and Eve was code for man and woman.  Mans early struggle to gain knowledge and separate themselves from the animals.


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## hangover (Aug 6, 2017)

Every scripture of every religion is written by fallible humans giving their perceptions of reality. Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality. Consider my thread GOD IS A HOLOGRAM....the link suggests that all information is encoded in every atom of everything that exists. This science says that the "God particle" in every atom is what holds every atom together, which gives all atoms mass. Everything that exists is dependent upon the "God particle" for its existence. So my conclusion is, God is a hologram of information, and everything that exists fits inside of God. And the hologram is infinite. Just a theory, but no different than any other religion. To me, truth is God....is it possible to define truth? Is truth reality?


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 6, 2017)

hangover said:


> Every scripture of every religion is written by fallible humans giving their perceptions of reality. Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality. Consider my thread GOD IS A HOLOGRAM....the link suggests that all information is encoded in every atom of everything that exists. This science says that the "God particle" in every atom is what holds every atom together, which gives all atoms mass. Everything that exists is dependent upon the "God particle" for its existence. So my conclusion is, God is a hologram of information, and everything that exists fits inside of God. And the hologram is infinite. Just a theory, but no different than any other religion. To me, truth is God....is it possible to define truth? Is truth reality?



You say everyone giving their perception of reality is fallible. You say that reality is truth.  You said our perceptions are truth.  You say our beliefs are our perceptions of reality.  You say reality is truth and our perceptions are truth.  You say beliefs are our perception of reality.  Which is what?  Where are the real definitions of perception, truth, and reality?  You make  the assumption that we are going to accept your, on the fly, definitions.

Lets take the idea that God is a hologram. You say everything in the universe depends on the god particle for its existence.  In physics the "God Particle" is also known as a heavy boson.  The part about that particle imparting mass is correct.  The person associated with naming this particle said it was a mistake.  He knew people would not let go of it.  Since the discovery of the heavy boson many other  things involving particles have been discovered.  They are talking about a fifth force.  So the God Particle may not be the end all you thought it was.  This is not unusual for physics.  Something new is always coming up.

After looking at your argument it seems clear that you have a strong desire to prove the existence of God.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that.  Your final argument does not prove the existence of God as a hologram.  This is because you cannot produce a working definition of God, or locate the presence of God.  You seem to be looking very far away for God.  I did the same thing.  But, I found God right next to me.


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## Warrigal (Aug 6, 2017)

I think you and I have arrived at much the same place, Uncontrolable, and by walking the same paths.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I think you and I have arrived at much the same place, Uncontrolable, and by walking the same paths.


It has been said that each of us carries our own cross.  However, some of us have a far heavier cross.  I think yours is one of those.  I thank God that you have survived.  There are people like us out there.  Imagine the stories that might be shared.  I was told, in some of my earliest personality tests that I should have been, among other things, a priest.  But, now I feel more like, channel is not the right word.  Although in AA we use the St. Francis prayer as our ideal when in meditation.  The beginning words of that prayer are:  Lord make me a channel of your"...peace, love, etc.  I appreciate your notice.


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## Ponderer (Aug 7, 2017)

Presupposition: an implicit assumption about the world or belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted.
The 40 human authors of the Bible write from the presupposition that God is the creator and that He communicates with humans. Even Jesus spoke from the presupposition of the eternal God as He claimed equality with Him. jesus was put to death for His claims. Would He have been treated any differently today?

It appears today that peoples' stand on the fiction vs. nonfiction debate over the Bible hinges on a person's presupposition of the existence of God and/or who God is.


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## Camper6 (Aug 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I suppose it does say somewhere, Proverbs maybe?, "spare the rod and spoil the child".
> I've heard similar ideas on this forum about how to deal with punks and gang bangers.
> 
> I was once caned for talking while the teacher was out of the room too but it was a public school.
> ...



There was a revolution in my school.  The big kids stole the straps out of the desks.  And no one knew who did it.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 7, 2017)

Ponderer said:


> Presupposition: an implicit assumption about the world or belief relating to an utterance whose truth is taken for granted.
> The 40 human authors of the Bible write from the presupposition that God is the creator and that He communicates with humans. Even Jesus spoke from the presupposition of the eternal God as He claimed equality with Him. jesus was put to death for His claims. Would He have been treated any differently today?
> 
> It appears today that peoples' stand on the fiction vs. nonfiction debate over the Bible hinges on a person's presupposition of the existence of God and/or who God is.


I agree with you about God.  If God spoke the verses to someone who wrote it down, that is OK with me.  My question is:  "Why didn't 
God just cause a book to appear?"

As for the other scenerio, by definition of what fiction is, the Bible would be categorized as fiction.  Does this mean there is no God?  No.  I have a deep belief in God, who has been very active in my life.  If interested you could read "My Spiritual Story"  It is in the forum.  Meanwhile,  the first people on this planet were just becoming sentient.  This could go back 50,000 years.  They had no language in the beginning because language takes time to develop.  My point is, there was an oral tradition because there had to be.

Was this inspired by God?  In a sense it was because the collective unconscious was there,  The collective unconscious was a broad collection of archetypal images that people live through.  This knowledge is well accepted.  Check out Dr. Carl Jung (archetypes) and the MMPI (personality test} which is based on Jung's work and is still being used today.   If God participated it was likely through the collective unconscious.  But, the Bible still comes out of a work of fiction.  More because God did not write it, or dictate it.


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## hangover (Aug 7, 2017)

Uncontrolable said:


> You say everyone giving their perception of reality is fallible. You say that reality is truth.  You said our perceptions are truth.  You say our beliefs are our perceptions of reality.  You say reality is truth and our perceptions are truth.  You say beliefs are our perception of reality.  Which is what?  Where are the real definitions of perception, truth, and reality?  You make  the assumption that we are going to accept your, on the fly, definitions.
> 
> Lets take the idea that God is a hologram. You say everything in the universe depends on the god particle for its existence.  In physics the "God Particle" is also known as a heavy boson.  The part about that particle imparting mass is correct.  The person associated with naming this particle said it was a mistake.  He knew people would not let go of it.  Since the discovery of the heavy boson many other  things involving particles have been discovered.  They are talking about a fifth force.  So the God Particle may not be the end all you thought it was.  This is not unusual for physics.  Something new is always coming up.
> 
> After looking at your argument it seems clear that you have a strong desire to prove the existence of God.  There is certainly nothing wrong with that.  Your final argument does not prove the existence of God as a hologram.  This is because you cannot produce a working definition of God, or locate the presence of God.  You seem to be looking very far away for God.  I did the same thing.  But, I found God right next to me.


I think you misread my post...I said that those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of reality. I also said that humans are fallible. I said that reality is truth, but I didn't say that perceptions were truth. I did say that beliefs are perceptions of reality. But perceptions are different than truth. In order to see the truth, one must give up beliefs and perceptions. One can not know the Christ, as long as the belief exists that Christ doesn't. One can not know that every religion comes from the "all that is"....There is nothing that exists outside of the "all that is"...The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, yet almost all of them will say that their god is different than the others. As long as they hold that "belief", they can't know reality.

I don't assume anyone will accept my definitions. I have no desire to be a preacher or prophet. I said that for me, truth is God...that's the God I worship. 

In the link I provided in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, it talks about other particles and the fifth element. It talks about particles being separated by vast distances which act together, making the space/time an illusion.

The article doesn't say that God is a hologram, that's just my perception, which can be a fallacy, as I'm human too. Seeing God as everything that exists, is enough proof for me...I don't need to prove it to anyone. I'm content.

The God particle is what gives us mass...without it we don't exist, and neither does anything else. It's the glue for every atom. And every atom makes up everything in our bodies...all in perfect order. The rest of the universe is in perfect order...like our solar system, our galaxy, our earth, everything. Sometimes there are perceptions of chaos, but that is lack of understanding. There is a reason for everything. Cause and effect.

You said I seem to be looking very far away for God, but that can't be, because God is in everything. God is the hologram of all existence. Nothing exists outside of God.

I have another link I will provide in the GOD IS A HOLOGRAM thread, that explains that dark matter and dark energy is illusion.


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## Ponderer (Aug 7, 2017)

Again, this discussion is an opinion of Bible as fiction or nonfiction.
Oral tradition is a fact of some scripture. Genesis contains portions that must be oral accounts. If you follow the ages of death for the patriarchs, it appears that Noah's father would have been able to talk to Adam personally. Genesis was written by Moses many years later. The religious experts of the past ratified "scripture" as documents obtained by verbal plenary inspiration. Ie God breathed to human authors. Scripture is both written by man and by God.

Why? Psalms 115:3 says " God is in the heavens; He does as He pleases." Frankly, God chose to give us the Bible through people. I understand that our debate today is exactly within God's plan. If you choose to reject the Bible as truth, you are free to do so. If we had an ironclad unrefutable presentation of God's word, we would not have the freedom today to debate His existence or His truth. God has given us the freedom to choose. Almost sounds American.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 7, 2017)

hangover said:


> I think you misread my post...I said that those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of reality. I also said that humans are fallible. I said that reality is truth, but I didn't say that perceptions were truth. I did say that beliefs are perceptions of reality. But perceptions are different than truth. In order to see the truth, one must give up beliefs and perceptions. One can not know the Christ, as long as the belief exists that Christ doesn't. One can not know that every religion comes from the "all that is"....There is nothing that exists outside of the "all that is"...The Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, yet almost all of them will say that their god is different than the others. As long as they hold that "belief", they can't know reality.
> 
> I don't assume anyone will accept my definitions. I have no desire to be a preacher or prophet. I said that for me, truth is God...that's the God I worship.
> 
> ...



In the second line of your post you say, "reality is truth and our perceptions are truth.  You cannot say both are truth unless you say both reality and perception are truth.  One big problem is that you do not define your terms.  What is reality?  What is truth? What are perceptions?  In order for accuracy your definition of each must contain the definition of the other.  It has been my experience in writing research papers that without proper definition they won't be taken seriously.  

What is the 5th element? Is that the fifth element on the periodic table? And I suppose you can use the term God particle.  If you use a heavy boson as a definition of God.  Does this mean that the God particle takes in all of reality?  Here we go. What is reality?  Does the God particle stop the universe from expanding forever.  No, a heavy boson cannot do that.  So your God particle is not everything in the universe, or all powerful.  Again, I am willing to believe you.  But, I do not  blindly believe anything.  I can be very wrong about things.  That is why I am careful.


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## hangover (Aug 7, 2017)

Uncontrolable said:


> In the second line of your post you say, "reality is truth and our perceptions are truth.  You cannot say both are truth unless you say both reality and perception are truth.  One big problem is that you do not define your terms.  What is reality?  What is truth? What are perceptions?  In order for accuracy your definition of each must contain the definition of the other.  It has been my experience in writing research papers that without proper definition they won't be taken seriously.
> 
> What is the 5th element? Is that the fifth element on the periodic table? And I suppose you can use the term God particle.  If you use a heavy boson as a definition of God.  Does this mean that the God particle takes in all of reality?  Here we go. What is reality?  Does the God particle stop the universe from expanding forever.  No, a heavy boson cannot do that.  So your God particle is not everything in the universe, or all powerful.  Again, I am willing to believe you.  But, I do not  blindly believe anything.  I can be very wrong about things.  That is why I am careful.



This is the second line of my post...."_ Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality." 
_It doesn't say that perceptions are truth, it says that "beliefs" are perceptions of reality. Those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of what they "believed" to be reality. The ancients did not understand what that reality was. What we call UFO's, they called fiery chariots. Just as an example.

It's all about information.....information can not be destroyed....it's encoded in every atom in the God particle. Hence, the hologram. In the bible it says that God created everything....so nothing exists outside of God, and God is in everything. Without the God particle, nothing exists.

Disclaimer: I'm human, therefore fallible.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 7, 2017)

hangover said:


> This is the second line of my post...."_ Reality is truth...beliefs are perceptions of reality."
> _It doesn't say that perceptions are truth, it says that "beliefs" are perceptions of reality. Those that wrote the scriptures were giving their perceptions of what they "believed" to be reality. The ancients did not understand what that reality was. What we call UFO's, they called fiery chariots. Just as an example.
> 
> It's all about information.....information can not be destroyed....it's encoded in every atom in the God particle. Hence, the hologram. In the bible it says that God created everything....so nothing exists outside of God, and God is in everything. Without the God particle, nothing exists.
> ...


I don't care about another person's view of reality.  I want to know what you believe  reality is.  Also, if the heavy boson has all the information,  how do we know that?  How do we extract that information?  What makes you think your version of reality is reality for everyone? What if there is a "real" reality that does not agree with yours.


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2017)

Gentlemen, you can discuss these esoteric concepts until the cows come home but in the end you will have achieved very little.

I once took a theology course which had an element within it that examined the paradox that God is all powerful and totally good yet evil exists. We were presented with various attempts to reconcile these three statements and none of them made any sense to me, including the version presented in Genesis 2. 

They were doing my head in and when I was wrestling with the material I received a flash - the modern word for revelation. 

I had this thought - this is the wrong question. The proper question you should examine is "who is my neighbour".
I knew that this question is the introduction to the parable of the Good Samaritan.
This well known story is easy to understand - we teach it to quite young children and they get it - but it takes a lifetime to learn  how to live out the parable as we grow in understanding of the question. Ultimately, when we see everyone as our neighbour, we have absorbed the lesson as Christ intended.

This is why I no longer spend any time trying to sort out the concepts that you are bouncing back and forth. I have become like a little child again as Christ intended and I am living in the Kingdom, or rather I am busy helping to build the Kingdom on this earth. This is my reality.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 7, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Gentlemen, you can discuss these esoteric concepts until the cows come home but in the end you will have achieved very little.
> 
> I once took a theology course which had an element within it that examined the paradox that God is all powerful and totally good yet evil exists. We were presented with various attempts to reconcile these three statements and none of them made any sense to me, including the version presented in Genesis 2.
> 
> ...



There is no way I can disagree with what you are saying.  Especially since I said that I am willing to have God work through me.  I am constantly ready to participate in God's will.  Of course I have that article of faith that I am doing God's will against the possibility that I misunderstood the request.  There is a reason that I make myself available for that conjecture which I have already solved.  I do so because I believe it is God's will.  By the way.  There is a "reason" for evil.  We live through our archetypes.  If our journey has turned negative we are doing the evil available through that archetype.  Archetypes are neutral until we engage them.  They can help us and be positive as well.  We make a contract with God before we come to earth.  The contract may involve being part of a situation where we have to decide between good and evil.  God makes no judgement.  And as you know God, or Angels. or deceased family members also give us aid. 

The last thing is I participate in what seems to be rather empty discourse is that I am trying to assist my brothers or sisters to discover what they are searching for.  I know how reality is constructed.  Notice most recently I have been having a discussion in which I am challenging their idea about what reality is.  Once they ask themselves that question they start moving in a different direction.  I stop the discussion when I believe they cannot hear me yet.  I have changed lives this way.  

I listened to Mother Theresa's biography,  In the first few pages she admonishes her fellow Nuns to treat others as you would treat Jesus.  I think that is what you do.  

There is a thread that asked what we thought we might be able to teach.  I said I could teach people how to have a spiritual awakening.  I have no doubt of this.  So far I don't think anyone has asked me to discuss it with them.  They either already know, or they are afraid to ask.

I really appreciate your comments.  I feel like we share the same reality.  I feel your kindness.  I hope I did not talk your leg off.  Especially since we only have two.


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## Warrigal (Aug 7, 2017)

No worries, Uncontrolable.

I have a good brain and I love stimulating discussions but when it comes to theology and questions that are largely unanswerable I tire easily these days. If you have read Fowler's _Stages of Faith _you will understand  when I say that my faith has developed to the second last stage - Simplifying Faith. Note simplifying faith does not equate to simplistic faith. It means that I am ready to drop a lot of things that I spent time on in my younger days and concentrate on a core or simple matters. I don't bother with the Book of Revelations now. I am content to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus.

Everyone has faith in something and everyone's faith develops over time. As with stages of cognitive or moral development, not everyone attains the higher levels. There is no reason to look down on someone who seems to be operating at an lower level than we do because it is not a lower level - it is just an earlier stage of growth.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 8, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> No worries, Uncontrolable.
> 
> I have a good brain and I love stimulating discussions but when it comes to theology and questions that are largely unanswerable I tire easily these days. If you have read Fowler's _Stages of Faith _you will understand  when I say that my faith has developed to the second last stage - Simplifying Faith. Note simplifying faith does not equate to simplistic faith. It means that I am ready to drop a lot of things that I spent time on in my younger days and concentrate on a core or simple matters. I don't bother with the Book of Revelations now. I am content to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus.
> 
> Everyone has faith in something and everyone's faith develops over time. As with stages of cognitive or moral development, not everyone attains the higher levels. There is no reason to look down on someone who seems to be operating at an lower level than we do because it is not a lower level - it is just an earlier stage of growth.



You give me another task.  I love it. Have you read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous?  My hunch is not.  You have no reason.  You would likely have to read the first 164 pages.  The Big Book was written by the first 100 alcoholics who came to AA.  These men were in the last stages of the disease.  One of them committed suicide.  It was not uncommon for some of these men to have sudden and profound spiritual experiences.  I have had such experiences myself.  Most of the book was actually written by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob.  Their faith became profound and simple.  Men who have achieved this level have a difference in their countenance.  When they speak with someone their countenance seems to change the person they talk to.  Their faith becomes absolute.  

When they talk to their sponsees they discount the rapid and profound spiritual experience.  Their advice is that spiritual growth is better if it is slow growth.  I agree with that and have done the steps of AA multiple times.  There is a spiritual energy that inhabits AA.  The people in their various stages of growth contribute high vibrations to the group.  The meetings often have as their subject the most spiritual of the steps.  Step 3 is where they turn over their will and life to God.  If they can do that step their life will change in unusual ways.  I have sometimes used the analogy of the Wedding Song by Peter, Paul and Mary.  "Where two or more people are gathered in his name there is love."

I ramble on.  I wish you love, happiness, peace, and serenity.


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## beneDictus (Aug 8, 2017)

...okay...Anyone else for a spot of ''bible bashing''...? It`s one of those publications where one really has to..literally...read between the lines...!!


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 8, 2017)

beneDictus said:


> ...okay...Anyone else for a spot of ''bible bashing''...? It`s one of those publications where one really has to..literally...read between the lines...!!


OK, I'll bite.  What do you mean by Bible blasting?  This post did not mention the bible.


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## Aurora (Aug 14, 2017)

We all believe in a Higher Power--an exponent! lol


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## Dragonlady (Aug 17, 2017)




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## fuzzybuddy (Aug 17, 2017)

As an atheist, it's obvious. If the Bible is the foundation of your faith, who am I to say otherwise, as the Bible does not apply to me.


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## JaniceM (Aug 17, 2017)

Dragonlady said:


>



Well isn't that interesting-  by Church of England I guess they mean Anglican, in the US called Episcopalian?  Yet I've heard fundamentalists, who insist the King James Bible is the only 'true' Bible insist denominational Christians aren't even Christians.  That means they don't know where their 'text' came from, huh?  lol


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## hangover (Aug 17, 2017)

Dragonlady said:


>



The original bible was put together by the Constantine priests at Nicaea, to give power over the masses to the church. There is more scriptures not in the bible than in it. The priests eliminated all scriptures having anything to do with women's power. Then Martin Luther came up with the Protestant version of the bible to PROTEST the Catholic church's power over the masses. He took out about six books from the Catholic version. But there are still many scriptures left out called the apocrypha. The book of Enoch is one such scripture. He was so close to God, he was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot like Elijah. Why would they leave such important information out of the bible? Because they wanted the church to have the power, not God.


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## Ponderer (Aug 17, 2017)

Sometimes "fake news" is more acceptable than the real truth. The 1611 King James was translated from the latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate was produced by Jerome close to 400 AD. The veracity of all Bible versions comes from the resolve of the Jewish people who guarded the manuscripts. Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek are the original languages.  Most of today's Bible versions are translated from the ancient texts for accuracy. Yes, some english Bibles have taken liberty with the message. That does not delude the original writing.

I can accept the position that many people today hope the Bible is full of errors and cannot be trusted. If so, then what do they trust? I think all people would rather be told the truth rather than lies. How many friends do we keep when we find they tell us lies always?


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## SpicyTweed (Aug 18, 2017)

There is wisdom to be found in the Bible, but much of it I don't believe can be taken literally as historic truth.  It is comprised of a hodgepodge of writings over many centuries by many individuals, probably by some with their own personal agendas, and by some trying to record the history of a nation from stories passed on from generation to generation.


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## hangover (Aug 19, 2017)

SpicyTweed said:


> There is wisdom to be found in the Bible, but much of it I don't believe can be taken literally as historic truth.  It is comprised of a hodgepodge of writings over many centuries by many individuals, probably by some with their own personal agendas, and by some trying to record the history of a nation from stories passed on from generation to generation.


It's a must to understand the history of the bible. It was first put together by Constantine's priests at Nicaea. They took all the scriptures and decided which ones would be allowed in the bible. They did this to give power over the masses to the Church. The Catholic church ruled the world for 1500 years, until the Protestants came along and threw out another six scriptures from the Catholic bible. Before the Protestants, no one was allowed to read the bible but the priests of the Catholic church. The priests told the masses what they had to believe. Anyone that didn't capitulate was burned at the stake as a heretic. Millions of Muslims and Jews were burned at the stake or beheaded.

There is more scriptures not in the bible than are in the bible.


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## terry123 (Aug 19, 2017)

I have always believed its the inspired word of God.


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## hangover (Aug 20, 2017)

terry123 said:


> I have always believed its the inspired word of God.



Those that wrote the scriptures were inspired to write what they wrote.....it's just that ancient people didn't understand what they were witnessing. For instance, when John wrote Revelations, he was taken to the hall of records, where everything that has ever happened, or ever will happen is already written down...so when he saw Armageddon, he didn't know what to call tanks and fighter jets and nuclear bombs. So he explained it as he was able to understand it.

And reading Revelations, it jumps around in time, showing that time isn't linear.

Many of the disciples were confused a lot about things Jesus spoke of.


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## Anomaly 73 (Aug 25, 2017)

Perhaps he was referring to the Roman Emperor Nero who was indeed repressing them and causing them to pay taxes (have a number)? Many biblical historians have concluded that this is the case.


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