# Here we go again...white guy shoots black kid



## Davey Jones (Feb 16, 2014)

*Jacksonville, Florida (CNN)* -- A jury on Saturday night convicted a Florida man on four charges related to his shooting into an SUV full of teenagers during an argument over loud music, but could not decide on the most serious charge -- murder.

A black mnister leading a possible riot for not getting the murder charge too.

The 4 guilty verdict mean a possible 20 years for EACH charge,what the hell more do they want?
Its not going to bring the dead teen back.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/florida-loud-music-trial/


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## Justme (Feb 16, 2014)

What an evil piece of scum! It is about time the love affair the US has with firearms came to an end!


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## rt3 (Feb 16, 2014)

I'm with you on that Justme, we need to take that constitution and burn it at a town meeting. Those scumbag news reporters need to be held accountable for what they say, no more free speech for them. And speaking of  love affairs I couldn't be happier with the new gay laws. I can't think of a better way to keep them from reproducing.


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## Pappy (Feb 16, 2014)

Wow, R2D2, Did you have a bad night? Burn our Constitution, no more free speech, no more reproducing? I certainly hope I am taking this the wrong way or I may say a few things that I'm sure Matrix will not allow. May I suggest if you want to post negative things, go to Topix.com. They love this crap.


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## rt3 (Feb 16, 2014)

no--- actually I'm 120% NRA, but not a gay constitutionalist, unless I wear certain sweaters then my wife "that really looks ---"  glad you caught the r2d2 though, rt3 is the other drug made besides t3 when t4 is converted, however rt3 is a competitive inhibitor, if your into football sort of a linebacker of the thyroid crowd.


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## rt3 (Feb 16, 2014)

the white guy didn't shoot the kid because of the music, he complained the music was to loud, to which the kids told him to "take a flying leap (polite version)" and the one that was shot pulled a shining something from his coat, and the guy thought it was a gun. so he beat him to the draw, except no gun was found in the vehicle.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 16, 2014)

Rt3, I knew how your post was intended, thanks for the morning smile. That guy Dunn was a jerk, who was way out of line, and I agree he should have received the maximum murder charge.  But the jury decided, and he got the next best thing.

Race doesn't matter, when a senseless murder is committed an innocent life is lost.  Again, another opportunity for the gun control activists to point the finger at the gun itself.  It's the person who committed the crime, and the gun was just a tool, just like a knife, hammer, rope, or anything else people have used to kill each other.

White man _again_?  We wouldn't be talking about Zimmerman as the other white man, would we?  BTW, he was also a jerk who went looking for trouble and overstepped his bounds.  He obviously wanted to play hero, and had mental issues, violence seemed to be in his life all the time.

If Zimmerman raped your daughter in her bedroom and escaped, would your daughter describe him to the cops as a white man?  Lol, I don't think so.  Now that was definitely racial bias brought on by a biased government agenda and news media.  Zimmerman is Hispanic or latino at best, he wouldn't be checking any Caucasian or white boxes on any official forms.


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## That Guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Well said SeaBreeze.  Rude teenagers.  Stupid guy with a gun.  Black/White.  Florida.  Collapse of social graces.  Recipe for disaster.


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## Pappy (Feb 16, 2014)

If that's the case, rt3, I owe you an apology. I took your meaning the wrong way and I do not want to get into a p....... Match with anyone. I am a very patriotic person and I misunderstood your post. Pappy


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## drifter (Feb 16, 2014)

I think Mr. Dunn got what amounted to double jeopardy. He should not have been charged with counts 2, 3, 4, or 5. His stand his ground defense, allows him to shoot a firearm. It allows him to shoot at the car, it allows him to shoot with three other people in the car and not be charged, He should only have been charged with murder, which was a mistrial. In this case all the other charges were pile ons and should not be allowed by an appeals court. You see as it stands, the prosecutor charged him so she couldn't miss. It should not stand, and not legal charges. These people will appeal this double jeopardy as they should. Or, I would accept five years, then suspend it, just to be fair.


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## That Guy (Feb 16, 2014)

drifter said:


> I think Mr. Dunn got what amounted to double jeopardy. He should not have been charged with counts 2, 3, 4, or 5. His stand his ground defense, allows him to shoot a firearm. It allows him to shoot at the car, it allows him to shoot with three other people in the car and not be charged, He should only have been charged with murder, which was a mistrial. In this case all the other charges were pile ons and should not be allowed by an appeals court. You see as it stands, the prosecutor charged him so she couldn't miss. It should not stand, and not legal charges. These people will appeal this double jeopardy as they should. Or, I would accept five years, then suspend it, just to be fair.



So, the prosecutor took the "shotgun" approach . . . ahahahaha...


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## Davey Jones (Feb 16, 2014)

> His stand his ground defense, allows him to shoot a firearm.



  that "stand your ground " is just crap ,there was absolutely no other weapon found. All he had to do is walk away from the scene. He killed another human being,his life was not in danger so he needs to pay with life In Prison.


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## That Guy (Feb 16, 2014)

Roger that, Davey!


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2014)

Well Davey. Of course none of us were there but just to make a point his  life doesn't have to be in danger as long as he has reason to THINK his life may be in danger. I think maybe that was a cause for some doubt among the jury. 

I know it's hard to resist second guessing but we all need to learn to accept a jurys verdict.  That is the core of our legal system. I'm sure the jury heard a lot more evidence than what we saw on the news.


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## That Guy (Feb 16, 2014)




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## drifter (Feb 16, 2014)

Mr Dunn will appeal this outrageous treatment.


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## rt3 (Feb 16, 2014)

I think he should have shot the Easter bunny also, what the heck has bunnies and eggs got to do with easter. Now a groundhog I can see, both coming out of a cave and seeing their shadow that is. Or maybe it was because JC was really a Pisces -- I' confused. 

anyway the murder charge didn't stick because he thought he was in danger. , The first thing you are taught in gunfighting school (Gunsight, Thunder Ranch) is shooting at a car full of people is on the big no list. 1) occupants may be hostages, not participants, 2) other occupants do not pose an immediate threat 3) you don't have enough bullets. It would seem the jury felt the stand your ground didn't apply here. 

Stand your ground is part of larger body of law, castle doctrine, that says you can protect your defensive perimeter. Some states don't have it. Some do (free states). It simply means you don't have to retreat form the threat. An armed society is a polite society.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 17, 2014)

Different rules,different situations.
I always retreat from any bad situation weither my life is in danger or not but if I had a gun Im suppose to stand my ground and start shooting,in panic, where I think those bullets are coming from? I dont think so.
People in those mall,schools etc ran for their safety but if they all carried a gun they should stand their ground and start shooting,in panic,of anything that moves?? I dont think so.

NO,Im not a member of the NRA and I dont want to follow their rules.
Shoot first ask questions later.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

The thing about concealed carry is you don't know who is packin. NRA doesn't have any rules, not sure where you got that you are confused. If they had a rule it is they are opposed to anyone who is opposed to changing or violating the 2nd amendment-- which keeps them pretty busy. They have no shoot first rules, however My rule is shoot first, then shoot some more, let the police ask the questions. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck shoot it. (If lethal force is directed to you, respond accordingly, whereas you would probably ask them what time it was because it was time to go.  The malls you are talking about are in non-free states. In the states of Idaho, Mont., Ariz., Utah, Nevada, Wyo., Colorado (a non-free state), New Mexico mostly Oregon, Washington, Texas, Florida, Missouri, etc. 50% if the population is packing. I think Utah has something like 65% of the population (qualified) has concealed carry permits with Texas following a close 2nd. Trained shooters don't shoot in panic they shoot at a lethal threat to themselves or their family.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 17, 2014)

Ho hum..*and so it continues. 
Man Arrested After Shooting, Standoff in Arizona Mall | Fox NewsFox News Channe,January,2014
AND yesterday(Sunday)
Police identify alleged shooter, victim in deadly Walmart fight
AZFamily ‎- 3 minutes ago 
A man shot inside a Walmart store during a fight died, police in the ... store, which ended in a shooting around 4 p.m. Sunday, Chandler police ...
and these 2 were at the checkout,maybe they were waiting for price check,ya think.






*


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

Ho Hum its not going to change-- take your head out of the sand.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

should add-- while your doing screenings on the internet to support your view, also screen for the use of firearms by citizens on a daily basis to protect themselves and prevent crime


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## SifuPhil (Feb 17, 2014)

rt3 said:


> should add-- while your doing screenings on the internet to support your view, also screen for the use of firearms by citizens on a daily basis to protect themselves and prevent crime



As a general rule those kinds of stories are squashed - don't want those armed citizens getting too uppity! :crushed:

MUCH better to stir them up into a lather with stories of mass shootings where everyone dies, so they'll be scared enough to allow the government to baby-sit them even _more_ efficiently ...


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 17, 2014)

rt3 said:


> The thing about concealed carry is you don't know who is packin. NRA doesn't have any rules, not sure where you got that you are confused. If they had a rule it is they are opposed to anyone who is opposed to changing or violating the 2nd amendment-- which keeps them pretty busy.  Trained shooters don't shoot in panic they shoot at a lethal threat to themselves or their family.



Well said Rt3, this is always the fall back argument of the gun control followers.  Law abiding citizens do not go around having shootouts for no reason.  It is a fact that cities/states with strict gun laws have more gun crime, by those criminals and mentally ill people who get their guns illegally off the streets.  If a criminal knows that the people in the house have no guns to protect themselves, they are much more likely to go in there and rob, rape and murder their 'sitting duck' victims.  In areas where people are known to carry and have guns, the criminal must think twice, and usually will not even attempt to do anything harmful.  As you've said before, and I agree, an armed society is a polite society.

In this case, Dunn was out of line, and acting like a bully.  What gives him the right to demand that those teens lower their radio.  I would have reacted the same way with that jerk.  In my case though, I wouldn't be blasting the music like that, and would have at least been considerate of others around me, and lowered it temporarily if needed.  I wonder how Dunn would have reacted if they were blasting a song that he liked instead of rap, maybe he'd start tapping his foot to the rhythm, and keep his nose out of it.  If there are noise-control laws in the area, then the officials can take care of loud music, etc.  This guy had no right to even have started anything.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 17, 2014)

Just my point of view,thats all.
We're all old enough to respect others opinions especially on this site.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

I respect your point of view Davey, really I do, more so than you can image. It just that some folks who agree along these lines tend to tread on my constitutional rights.  So--- keep your hands where I can see them.


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## That Guy (Feb 17, 2014)

rt3 said:


> So--- keep your hands where I can see them.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

> It is a fact that cities/states with strict gun laws have more gun crime


Really? I'd like to see statistics that back up that statement. Include countries as well as states and cities.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 17, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Really? I'd like to see statistics that back up that statement. Include countries as well as states and cities.



it's a fact, Warrigal. Look it up.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

Point me in the right direction. World statistics don't support your 'fact'.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

/World crime rates wouldn't be representative, why because more children die in swimming pools each year in the US than die in some small Euro countries. 

Chicago, no guns allowed, highest crime and murder rate in country next to Detroit that is
New York same deal
Switzerland everybody must own a rifle, very low crime rate
Syria if you have a gun your a terrorist -- does this count or not
NYC no guns allowed highest murder and crime next to Detroit.

Could go on but, the fact is the statistics are there they are just skewed by NBC, 

currently there are over 50,000 gun owners in Connecticut in a state of civil disobedience   ---  because they refuse to register their guns under the new law  does their support of their constitutional rights make this a statistic?


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## Ina (Feb 17, 2014)

Around this area, the bad guys will get you if they want you. Now they will come into your home with a gang. You can't shoot them all before they get to you. It scares the **** out of me. And, I am not into taking out as many as I can on my way out. But, I do have a couple of mean looking barking pit bull dogs. That way I can hear what "might" be out there, and be even more scared. :cart:


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

the dogs are good, not that the dogs scare the bad guys, its just to much work for the lazy SOB's to deal with the dogs when there are easier marks.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

in your heart you know its right
change is the tool that serves the common good
the ends justify the means

I don't mind if the new generation wants to reinvent the wheel, the problem is -- its the same wheel, couldn't they change the hubcap or something?


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## obrien60 (Feb 17, 2014)

I hope that one day we will see a time in our country when a shooting that kills someone is more about the act that occurred than it is about the color of the skin of the people who were involved. I thought that segregation and stuff ended more than 50 years ago? The media is a tool used by those in power. Sadly the country has gotten to a place that everything  is influenced by a few forces instead of the movement of the masses. I believe that freedom of speech is essential, and people should have the ability to say whatever they wish without being prosecuted. I also believe that this same ability there is room for groups to take advantage of this right.


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## Ina (Feb 17, 2014)

rt3, I can't fault you. My oldest son, ER was in the army for ten years. Part of that time was spent in the Special Forces. He believed in protecting our country, and ourselves as individuals. He was on leave in 1992 for 10 days, when some fool he had never met killed him with a sawed off shotgun. I still wonder what ER would think about it all.  :cart:


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## Ina (Feb 17, 2014)

Welcome Obrien60, I hope that time will come, but I don't think you or I will see it. :cart:


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

Last night, when I went to bed around 1.30am, I closed my front door which is right behind my arm chair. It had been open most of the day and the flyscreen door is never locked. We don't have a front fence either. I don't have a gun, my neighbours don't own guns. No-one in my family owns a gun. We don't live in fear because we don't expect to meet anyone carrying a gun other than a policeman. It is bliss living in a city where there are few guns in the hands of cranky civilians.

Sure, there are criminals who own guns and there are other law abiding people with registered firearms but I walk around, unarmed and unafraid and travel on public transport totally unconcerned that I may have to defend myself by shooting someone.

To my mind, the USA and Belfast during the IRA bombings are on a par. Both sound like  nightmares to me. Very violent and insane nightmares.

For the benefit of any newcomers, I don't live in a quiet rural town. I live in a suburb of Sydney that has more than its fair share of gun crime, for Australia, that is, but it is all about gang members shooting each other. They are no threat to me at all. Me carrying a gun wouldn't protect me in any case.


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## Vivjen (Feb 17, 2014)

Our policemen aren't armed, except special units.

I live in a 'squaddie' town, with many soldiers to and from Afgan; most of the trouble here is squad dies being over exuberant when they come back.

Just keep out of their way.


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## drifter (Feb 17, 2014)

We have far too many guns in this country. Now everybody will not agree with and that's all right. You're entitled to your opinion even though you're wrong. For some time I thought Oklahoma City was the murder capital of the world, even though I could find written evidence it wasn't. In this country we can't keep up with all the gun killings. We think we can, but i don't think so. There's just too many. No matter, I don't want to know haw many, all I'm saying is our gun situation is out of control. Some day I believe the United States Supreme Court will rule that we have long misread and misunderstood the constitution and what a standing Militia means. I believe we have and i know I'm a lone voice in this gun control wilderness.Our squaddie town police more resemble Patton's Army than a local police force. And their dress is even more outrageous. Cheers.


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## That Guy (Feb 17, 2014)

obrien60 said:


> I hope that one day we will see a time in our country when a shooting that kills someone is more about the act that occurred than it is about the color of the skin of the people who were involved. I thought that segregation and stuff ended more than 50 years ago? The media is a tool used by those in power. Sadly the country has gotten to a place that everything  is influenced by a few forces instead of the movement of the masses. I believe that freedom of speech is essential, and people should have the ability to say whatever they wish without being prosecuted. I also believe that this same ability there is room for groups to take advantage of this right.



Well said.  Thank-you.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 17, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Just my point of view,thats all.
> We're all old enough to respect others opinions especially on this site.



I respect your point of view Davey.  I'm just giving my opinions also, not looking to change anyone's mind at all.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

> We have far too many guns in this country


That's the impression I get too. From afar, of course, but the statistics are mind blowing.
And too many  of them are for shooting people, not for hunting or use on the farm.

Too many guns and general paranoia are a bad combination. 
Perhaps reducing the paranoia would be a good first step?


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## That Guy (Feb 17, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Too many guns and general paranoia are a bad combination.
> Perhaps reducing the paranoia would be a good first step?



I like the way you think, my friend.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 17, 2014)

I need more guns. I'm at an all time low. I don't think I have but 14 or 15 right now. There is one I've been planning to get but this problem with our heater night slow that down. Guns are tools and you need the right tool for the job.


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## rt3 (Feb 17, 2014)

Like to agree with you drifter , but then both of us would be wrong. Most shootings in the usa are afro- americans shooting other afro-americans. Not a perfect world and head in sand positions won't work. The supreme court has already californa's nixed their ban on carrying concealed in the san fran area, and will be taking up the meaning of "to Bear" arms this summer.  hope you loose. It won't really matter however, because the non criminals who have the guns, are not going to register them or give them up regardless. Look at the positive side, I would have never guessed the NRA and ACLUl would join in hands in a law suit against the NSA. Totally mind boggling. If you can define the difference between a gun that is meant to shoot people and one that is used for hunting I would be forever grateful, because you can't. 
I visit with a lot of folk from Australia on different gun websites, most are hunters, some gun club members. Everyone of them yell in large Font, don't let what happened in Australia happen in the US. I visit with a lot of folk from Canada etc. etc etc. seems you are out numbered. 
The movement of masses against the few, among other things is called discrimination, socialism (fascism in the extreme). I think there are too many automobiles and the kill rate for them is 10 times that of guns etc. and I can't drive without being paranoid--- what is that all about.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 17, 2014)

A .50-caliber machine gun is not meant for hunting ... nor is an Uzi. Egregious examples I know, but you wanted the info, rt3 ...


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## Ina (Feb 17, 2014)

Warri, I think if we could get our news medias to quit sensationalizing every gun shooting, some of the paranoia would slack off. But, our news media is more about the money and its ratings, than helping this nation deal with it's fear problems. I've gotten to where I listen to the local weather and then I shut it off. I don't need them to tell me how bad it is every hour on the hour. :cart:


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## Ina (Feb 17, 2014)

Thanks to all of you for filling my mind in such a way that I didn't have to deal with my own thoughts. I guess I am still in shock. :cya: fftobed:  :cart:


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## drifter (Feb 17, 2014)

Di, I don't think we can tell how many shootings are race related. Officials in each state might be able to give some type of off handed estimate if they were inclined to do so. I don't think we know.

We have far too many guns in this country that are too readily available to people who have no business owning or having a gun readily available to them.   This includes many on our police forces across.  Hotheads, who demand people immediately obey them, otherwise they shoot somebody. Oh, they deny the circumstances. They claim they thought the individual was going for a gun. But we know better.

I think I agree with you that most shootings are among blacks. Our gun laws, among our many states, are what are crazy. They seem to be trying to out do each other who can carry, and where they can carry.

I also think we have too many guns. I understand the reason we do. We like to say it’s our right, one of our freedoms and it is, but it’s the money to be made that determines how our freedoms are enforced. However it will never happen because there’s too much money involved.

I’m not against guns per se. I owned a sawed off shotgun until recently when I found out the state of Oklahoma outlaws all sawed off guns. Over the years I’ve owned several guns. I've hunted. I served my country in war and peace. I think what we've got is a mess. It's just my opinion. None of us, all of us are not going to solve anything. We can cuss and discuss till the cows come home and the moon turns blue and we won't change any thing. I think we're all a little short on common sense.


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## RedRibbons (Feb 17, 2014)

Black people shoot a lot of other black people. They also shoot a lot of white people. Most men in prison are black. And, that is because so many black men commit crimes. Whether you choose to believe that or not is irrelevant, it is a fact.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 17, 2014)

I think most of the gun crime in the big cities are black on black.  They get those guns off the streets, and use them for drug or gang-related violence.  You don't hear much about those crimes on the news. Since they get their guns illegally, and always will regardless of the strict gun laws in their state, it doesn't suit the agenda of the media to give them much attention, or dwell on them.  I think it was Washington DC that had a big gun control crackdown, on the law-abiding citizens, of course...and gun crime by the street criminals skyrocketed.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

Are you saying, Seabreeze, that the media does not report all deaths by firearms? Just some of them ?


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't think they report all of the deaths by firearms on the nationwide news stations.  Some of the crimes, if reported on the news, are played down, and just given a short and forgetful blurb on the report.

  The crimes which favor the agenda of gun control, are reported with a biased slant to influence the listener/reader's opinion of the incident.  Those crimes are repeatedly aired, maybe the same 2 key sentences are reported over and over and over again, day after day, etc...to get their position across and drilled into everyone's head.

  The deaths of innocent law abiding citizens caused by street criminals who get their guns illegally, are downplayed.  The street crime which involves gangs or drug dealers shooting each other, is also swept under the carpet.


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## Warrigal (Feb 17, 2014)

Seabreeze said:
			
		

> The crimes which favor the agenda of gun control


Would these be the mass killings in public places?

This article talks about perception vs reality



> University of Toronto sociologist Jennifer Carlson said there’s a perception that mass shootings — often the most high-profile of gun-related murders — happen like clockwork every few months, often because they dominate headlines for a lengthy time.
> "
> These high-profile events are not only reported on the news, but they’re unpacked, dissected and talked about at length, and they kind of overpower any other narratives that are maybe less sexy," said Carlson, who moved recently from the U.S. to work at the University of Toronto.
> 
> ...



The article talks about who the victims are



> *Who are the victims?
> *
> More than three-quarters of gun homicide victims are male. A disproportionate of those killed by gun violence are black. African-Americans account for 55 per cent of U.S. gun deaths despite representing only 13 per cent of the population, according to 2010 figures.
> 
> Nearly 70 per cent of gun homicide victims are in the 18 to 40 age bracket, even though that group only represents a third of the population. The highest number of victims are in the 18 to 24 year-old range.


and compares the US with some other countries


> *How does the U.S. compare to the rest of the world?*
> 
> According to 2009 data collected by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), the U.S. sees 3.3 homicides by firearm for every 100,000 citizens. By comparison, Canada's rate is 0.5 homicides and the U.K. is 0.1. Most European countries sit somewhere in the same range.
> 
> ...



This article bears out some of the points made already. It reports that gun homicides are currently less frequent than in the 1990s It doesn't say in which states the improvement has been most noticeable.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 18, 2014)

drifter said:


> We have far too many guns in this country that are too readily available to people who have no business owning or having a gun readily available to them.


Fully agree with you.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 18, 2014)

I do believe the media goes all out when several people,10 or more, are shot dead by whoever.
Its all about ratings ya know.


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## Jackie22 (Feb 18, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> quote:We have far too many guns in this country that are too readily available to people who have no business owning or having a gun readily available to them.
> 
> Fully agree with you.



....and I fully agree with you both, we need stricter gun control.

..and why shouldn't the media report a mass shooting, when a group of people are mowed down with assault weapons?

..to me, the gun lovers are the ones with their heads in the sand by ignoring what too many guns are doing to our country.


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

again -- the crime rates are the highest in areas that have the strictest gun controls, gun control laws do not control crime, that's why they are criminals they do not follow the law, your logic is flawed.
only .2% of gun fatalities are from what you call assault weapons, and again you cannot define an assault weapon so why are you calling them with that name, because its something you heard in the news. flawed logic
when the fatalities in the US is adjusted by removing the suicide rate (considered homicide) the actual rates are lower than other countries,  suicides are included in the numbers by a socialist administration to push an antigun agenda   and again flawed logic.

and again define too many guns.


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## Happyflowerlady (Feb 18, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Are you saying, Seabreeze, that the media does not report all deaths by firearms? Just some of them ?


Most of our news companies here in America are controlled. They are given a script to read, and they read it, and most of them actually read the same thing, word for word. 
The news we do get is also slanted to foment dissension between the races, even when race has nothing whatever to do with the issue. We are being programmed not to trust a person of another race, so what could happily be a mixed population. living and working together, is just not happening here.
Furthermore, when the story is about a black person killing a white person (such as the baby who was shot and killed in her stroller because the mother didn't have any money for the robber), then that story barely makes the news. There are a LOT of these crimes happening, but they are pretty much just passed over, one time reported, and then gone. 
However, if the crime is because a white person kills a black person, then it is KEPT in our news, and repeated over and over.

Most of these crimes, from both sides, are not actually race crimes, they are simply crimes, and being committed for robbery, or whatever reason; but are then slanted to make it look like they are racially motivated, but only when committed by a white person.


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

until you can define your suppositions, how can you make a case for them?  Not addressed to anyone in particular, just asking.


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## That Guy (Feb 18, 2014)




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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

opinion, untempered by fact is ignorance


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## Davey Jones (Feb 18, 2014)

rt3 said:


> opinion, untempered by fact is ignorance



Getting a little fiesty are we?


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

just old age, the people who said patience comes with old age was wrong.


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2014)

rt3 said:


> again -- the crime rates are the highest in areas that have the strictest gun controls, gun control laws do not control crime, that's why they are criminals they do not follow the law, your logic is flawed.
> only .2% of gun fatalities are from what you call assault weapons, and again you cannot define an assault weapon so why are you calling them with that name, because its something you heard in the news. flawed logic
> when the fatalities in the US is adjusted by removing the suicide rate (considered homicide) the actual rates are lower than other countries,  suicides are included in the numbers by a socialist administration to push an antigun agenda   and again flawed logic.
> 
> and again define too many guns.


WHAT?

First of all, piece meal gun control is no gun control at all. Only national laws will make any difference to the problem.
How about looking at the whole picture, including suicide, domestic violence and accidents where children have access to unsecured firearms? 
Never mind minimising by only talking about undefinable assault weapons and criminals. 
Every gun death is a tragedy, just as every drowning in a swimming pool is because so many of them could easily be prevented.

By the way, name three countries that have worse gun death statistics than the USA. 
I'll name two for you - Mexico and South Africa. Columbia is another one.
Does that make you proud?


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

now that I know where you stand on constitutional rights, lets include speech, etc. in your rant.
suicide can be done by any method including a hose connected to your car, is not covered by the constitution and when you point the hose at people they laugh at you

avoid the issue criminals don't obey the law. 

death is nature's way of saying good bye, whether it is a tragedy by any specific method well you get the point-- I think cancer deaths are tragic.

I have no idea what the last stuff has to do with anything.  They also have more mosquitoes, dictatorships and criminal gangs, who don't like law abiding citizens having gun ownership. sort of turns it around doesn't it.


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

speaking of pride, it makes me very proud to live in a country, the had the foresight to see the problems that would occur in South American countries


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## Warrigal (Feb 18, 2014)

> I think cancer deaths are tragic.



So do I, rt3, and I'm glad that time and money is invested in examining the causes and looking for the remedies.
Of course it is no good to know the remedy if we refuse to implement it.



> now that I know where you stand on constitutional rights, lets include speech, etc. in your rant.


Your constitution is not my constitution and I realise that it has the status of Holy Writ for some Americans but it is in reality just an old instrument of government and has been modified over time and also re-interpreted by the courts as new situations arise. If it is no longer serving the people well, the people have the means to alter it.

By the way, I rarely rant. I am a supporter of free speech, which is why I take the liberty to express my opinion on this forum. 
I also respect your right to express yours, but I don't have to agree with you. 
Nor you with me.

Let's agree to disagree.

Peace?


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## Davey Jones (Feb 18, 2014)

Alright you 2 cats...


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## rt3 (Feb 18, 2014)

Davey I like your dueling picture, and think the art of dueling should be reinstated it would certainly be the change to a much needed remedy.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 19, 2014)

Dueling with Warrigal would be a cinch....she won't have a gun. :lol:

I'm glad everything is perfect where you live Warrigal, but why do you insist on trying to change our country? How has our right to bear arms affected you?


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm not trying to change your country. 
Only the American people can do that.
I just don't understand why you don't want to.

I think you're all deranged on this issue and I will continue to exercise my right as a free citizen to say so.
Why, because I live on the other side of the planet and I'm out of range.

:tongue:


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

rkunsaw and rt3,

What do you think of this news from NSW?
It's not unconstitutional over here.
Would it be where you live?



> B ikie and gang members hit with gun ban                                        February 19, 2014                                 12:18PM
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most gun crime in NSW, including importation of prohibited classes of weapons, is down to criminal gangs and rogue bikie clubs. Where the police have good reason, by way of criminal records and intelligence gathered, certain people can be banned from gun ownership and they can be stopped and searched if the police want to make sure they don't have any.

A breach of civil liberties or common sense policing?


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## rkunsaw (Feb 19, 2014)

Making it illegal for criminals to own guns, what a unique concept. One thing that seems to always be overlooked though, the reason they are called criminals is because they do not obey laws. 
In case you haven't noticed it is against the law for criminals to have guns here too. Our criminals don't obey laws either. I guess we could make it illegal to not obey laws.:yeahright:


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

Now you are being contrary. I was pointing to the law that allows police to confiscate guns from criminals once they have a Firearm Prohibition Order in place. It doesn't affect the whole population, just certain persons who have demonstrated that they should not have access to firearms. If the criminals obeyed the laws the police wouldn't be stopping them and searching their persons, cars, clubhouses and houses for weapons.

I'm asking whether you see this as infringing the right to bear arms as specified in the US Constitution.
It's a serious question.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 19, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> Making it illegal for criminals to own guns, what a unique concept. One thing that seems to always be overlooked though, the reason they are called criminals is because they do not obey laws.
> In case you haven't noticed it is against the law for criminals to have guns here too. Our criminals don't obey laws either. I guess we could make it illegal to not obey laws.:yeahright:




Lately its seems everytime a law breaker is arrested,he is also armed.
"where did you get this gun and where are the serial numbers?? Oh at a garage sale,2 blocks west of here...go look."


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## rt3 (Feb 19, 2014)

when buying a firearm in the us, a backround (FBI) check is run on the applicant, if they have a record the firearm is not released. this is true in every state. That is not the issue. 
the issue -- law abiding citizens, who have a clean record, training with the weapon, and a concealed carry permit are not allowed in certain states, this is a constitutional violation. 
some criminals carry guns, because they know that other criminals will try to steal there stuff. these same criminals may or may not use these guns against someone else. The type of weapon one can buy at a garage sale, is not satisfactory for carry or self defense, they are usually old relics and broken. Firearms transfers across the internet must be conducted thru a licensed firearms dealer complete with  the FBI backround check. Sales of firearms to someone you know, like a relative or one your friends you shoot with ( who also happens to be a federal judge as an example) do not need a backround check. Buying a gun legally and just selling it is called a straw purchase, and is illegal. Less than 1% of the crimes committed with guns are solved with anything to do with the serial numbers. Tracking down the original purchaser is meaningless and a hold over from the alcohol prohibition era. 

Davey -- did you wake up some morning and find you were the only one not packin?


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## rt3 (Feb 19, 2014)

adding that in the scene of a crime all guns/weapons are confiscated regardless of the statue (police record etc,) of the people involved until it is sorted out. In same states they are returned once the legal part is sorted out. in some states they are ground up regardless of who was involved. ( a violation of another constitutional right dealing with unlawful seizure).


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## Sid (Feb 19, 2014)

All this talk about too many guns is way off base as far as I am concerned. 
      What we should be asking is "Why do we have so many mentaly deranged people on the street."
      Guns are not the problem, never have been the problem, and will never be the problem.
      People are the problem. So lets keep doping these kids up instead of taking time to love them and teach them.


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## rt3 (Feb 19, 2014)

Several problems here also, there are not enough hospitals, prisons, and beds for the mentals (what ever that is). They are put on the street because they can't get the quality health care. In the us we have sick care not health care. no one to pay for it. whats the difference between the two, it's like pornography -- you know it when you see it. 
the anti-gun agenda in the us is to put gun violence in the same category as health problems. thus by declaring someone unfit mentally they take away there rights. Currently any veteran diagnosed with post traumatic shock cannot have a firearm in Cal. and it will be confiscated. this is just one ave. of gun confiscation. so regardless of the lack of connection it gets back to guns. Pro gun people had enough of Clinton and from that time forward have taken a very hard line. There will be no give. You are on one side or the other.


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

> There will be no give.


And that is why you are doomed to misery.

Hug your grandchildren now. 
You may lose them at school one day.

Unless you plan to follow them around as their personal armed guard.


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## Katybug (Feb 19, 2014)

rt3 said:


> I'm with you on that Justme, we need to take that constitution and burn it at a town meeting. Those scumbag news reporters need to be held accountable for what they say, no more free speech for them. And speaking of  love affairs I couldn't be happier with the new gay laws. I can't think of a better way to keep them from reproducing.



Well, it's too early in the morning to be drinking, so I'm presuming this is exactly how you feel.....WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Katybug (Feb 19, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Well said SeaBreeze.  Rude teenagers.  Stupid guy with a gun.  Black/White.  Florida.  Collapse of social graces.  Recipe for disaster.



Ditto on everything stated by SB and TG and what the hell is going on in FL?  Way too much bad stuff and way too little punishment for it.  Last one I recall that was properly handled was Ted Bundy.  Since then it appears no matter what the crime (thinking specifically of Casey Anthony and Zimmerman), they walk!  This guy is guilty as sin, IMO.  No report to police and left the city. Innocent people just don't handle it in that manner after an incident such as that.  Again, JMO!


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 19, 2014)

Sid said:


> All this talk about too many guns is way off base as far as I am concerned.
> What we should be asking is "Why do we have so many mentaly deranged people on the street."
> Guns are not the problem, never have been the problem, and will never be the problem.
> People are the problem. So lets keep doping these kids up instead of taking time to love them and teach them.



I agree, the issue with the people who are using the guns is being completely ignored.  They are giving our young children anti-psychotic, antidepressant drugs at a very young age, doses are increased and new drugs are introduced, all of these create suicidal and homicidal behavior, and this should not be ignored...



> [/• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.
> 
> • Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
> 
> ...





Katybug said:


> Well, it's too early in the morning to be drinking, so I'm presuming this is exactly how you feel.....WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



If you read back Katy, you'll see that Rt3 was just making a point.



Katybug said:


> Since then it appears no matter what the crime (thinking specifically of Casey Anthony and Zimmerman), they walk!  This guy is guilty as sin, IMO.  No report to police and left the city. Innocent people just don't handle it in that manner after an incident such as that.  Again, JMO!



I agree Katybug, both Dunn and Zimmerman instigated the confrontation by putting their noses where they didn't belong.  They provoked a fight and then hid behind the self-defense excuse.  Fact of the matter is, if Zimmerman wasn't following that boy like that, and let the cops look into the matter, the teen would be alive today.  Dunn demanded they turn down their music, who is he to make such demands?  They were both guilty IMO.  Casey Anthony...well, I can't even wrap my head around that murderer going free, she has no heart or soul.


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

Where did you get that information about the medications taken by those people, Katybug. 
 Did it come out at an inquest?

 I see you have referenced some court records and toxicology results, but who/what is the source of the compilation ? I'm very interested and will try to trace the source myself.

I've found it. http://www.cga.ct.gov/asaferconnecticut/tmy/0128/Diana Gaita - Bethel CT.pdf

It is the testimony of  Diana Gaita who submitted it to the Bipartisan Task Force on Gun Violence Prevention and Children’s Safety. At the end of her testimony she declares her interest 


> Again I STRONGLY OPPOSE all new laws/regulations regarding gun control
> Thank you,
> Diana Gaita


She hasn't supplied a reference for her assertions, so I'll keep looking.

There were a lot of people submitting testimony to this task force. They can be read here: 

http://www.cga.ct.gov/asaferconnecticut/testimony.asp?sWhich=0128

I won't be reading them all but I picked an early one from Sandy Hook. She doesn't say much but she nevertheless speaks volumes:



> I am a second grade teacher at SHS who survived the horrific events on 12/14. Please do everything in your power to convince politicians and business people that gun control laws are vital to the well being of the next generation. We must start there.
> Respectfully,
> Abbey Clements


I also found a reference to legislation passed in Connecticut following the Sandy Hook massacre.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/BA/2013SB-01160-R00-BA.htm

I'd be interested in all points of view.


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## Sid (Feb 19, 2014)

Nothing to add. Just wanted to be the 100th replier.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 19, 2014)

Ding...Ding...Ding...we have a winna!!!  Congratulations Sid for being our 100th replier!! epper:


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 19, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Where did you get that information about the medications taken by those people, Katybug.
> Did it come out at an inquest?
> 
> I see you have referenced some court records and toxicology results, but who/what is the source of the compilation ? I'm very interested and will try to trace the source myself.



If you're addressing me Warrigal, I just got the information at the link provided, I never had reason to trace the source, but if you find out anything interesting, please let us know.


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2014)

Me too.
But if he was on Prozac he might have had one.

:badgirl: Warrigal.

Just stirring. :sorry:


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## Rainee (Feb 20, 2014)

All interesting posts on this subject... my guess would be that the young lad should have shown some respect to the older man and turned down the music.instead they turned it up and cursed , we all know the language of these young ones.. ! . the older guy apparently named Dunn said nope your not going to talk to me like that. Dunn`s attorney, Cory Strolla told Jurors Dunn felt threatened and fired in self defence.. , under Florida Law Dunn had every right not to be a victim.. , the defence attorney said  [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]During the argument Davis brandished the pocket knife , which was 4 inches and serrated when opened and was supposed to have said to Dunn [/FONT]During the argument, Davis brandished the pocket knife, which was 4 inches and serrated when opened, and was supposed to have said to Dunn I should kill you right now to which Dunn felt threatened.. !  then he was the murderer.. the law is strange isn`t it ? at least it wasn`t pre-meditated it was a spur of the moment.. act in anger maybe.. !


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## Katybug (Feb 20, 2014)

rt3 said:


> I will start a thread on that in health.
> 
> the white guy didn't shoot the kid because of the music, he complained the music was to loud, to which the kids told him to "take a flying leap (polite version)" and the one that was shot pulled a shining something from his coat, and the guy thought it was a gun. so he beat him to the draw, except no gun was found in the vehicle.



That's the whole bone of contention for me....I don't think there was ever a shining threatening anything.    The shooter was simply enraged and didn't have the maturity and wasn't lucid enough to walk away or call the police before the tragedy.  He also has a bad background, not to mention he had quite a few drinks under his belt.  If he had called police after it happened, I may feel differently, but to take his partner back to his room,  have pizza & wine and go to bed, then travel back home....something is so very wrong with this picture.  His g/f had to insist he call the police because they heard the young man had died and only then did he call them.  Who among us would have handled it in the same manner?   These are the facts and I am blown away that there was a holdout(s) on the jury.


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## Jackie22 (Feb 20, 2014)

Katybug said:


> That's the whole bone of contention for me....I don't think there was ever a shining threatening anything.    The shooter was simply enraged and didn't have the maturity and wasn't lucid enough to walk away or call the police before the tragedy.  He also has a bad background, not to mention he had quite a few drinks under his belt.  If he had called police after it happened, I may feel differently, but to take his partner back to his room,  have pizza & wine and go to bed, then travel back home....something is so very wrong with this picture.  His g/f had to insist he call the police because they heard the young man had died and only then did he call them.  Who among us would handled it in the same manner?   These are the facts and I am blown away that there was a holdout(s) on the jury.



Exactly!  Common sense tells you not to walk into a group and tell them what to do if you don't want problems, if you see someone doing something wrong, tell the proprietor or call the police.....since when is loud music or radio a reason for such outrage.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 20, 2014)

Jackie22 said:


> Exactly!  Common sense tells you not to walk into a group and tell them what to do if you don't want problems, if you see someone doing something wrong, tell the proprietor or call the police.....since when is loud music or radio a reason for such outrage.



I agree with both of you. This man did a stupid thing and caused a death. He should suffer the consequinces. 

I don't agree with people wanting to ban MY guns because of what HE did.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 20, 2014)

Katybug said:


> That's the whole bone of contention for me....I don't think there was ever a shining threatening anything.    The shooter was simply enraged and didn't have the maturity and wasn't lucid enough to walk away or call the police before the tragedy.  He also has a bad background, not to mention he had quite a few drinks under his belt.  If he had called police after it happened, I may feel differently, but to take his partner back to his room,  have pizza & wine and go to bed, then travel back home....something is so very wrong with this picture.  His g/f had to insist he call the police because they heard the young man had died and only then did he call them.  Who among us would have handled it in the same manner?   These are the facts and I am blown away that there was a holdout(s) on the jury.



I would have handled it in a completely different manner.  I wouldn't approach a car load of teens, with an attitude, and chip on my shoulder, demanding that they lower their rap music.  Only an idiot would think there would be no objection to that demand, IMO.  I would have responded exactly the way they did if that jerk approached me and started to try to bully me into doing what he wanted.  It was none of his business, and I agree having some alcohol in him made him even more obnoxious about the whole thing I'm sure.  If he has that much anger in him, he should seek counseling. 



Jackie22 said:


> Exactly!  Common sense tells you not to walk into a group and tell them what to do if you don't want problems, if you see someone doing something wrong, tell the proprietor or call the police.....since when is loud music or radio a reason for such outrage.



I agree, he could have talked to the manager of the store, or called the local police if there was a noise violation taking place.



rkunsaw said:


> I don't agree with people wanting to ban MY guns because of what HE did.



I don't agree with them either, never will.  Although I don't agree with them, I respect their right to their own opinions about it, and won't stoop to calling them names similar to "gun lovers" or "deranged",  as they have used to described those of us who do not want to have our guns removed by a nanny government that's supposed to babysit and protect each an every one of us in an emergency situation.  Yeah, call 911, hide in a closet, and see if your throat isn't slit by morning, etc.

Or in a natural disaster, where the people start looting and breaking into homes and vehicles to steal whatever they can from innocent citizens, and they use the excuse on the news that the police were too busy with other things to worry about those individual families who were victimized. 

 I will not be a victim in a situation like that, they will not come in, beat me up, and steal everything I've worked hard for, and any food/water I have available for my family.  People forget how one snowstorm could empty supermarket shelves in 12 hours, what happens in 12 days.  The criminal plan is to steal from those who have.  If you're depending on a cop to sit on your doorstep, good luck with that.


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## Davey Jones (Feb 20, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> I agree with both of you. This man did a stupid thing and caused a death. He should suffer the consequinces.
> 
> I don't agree with people wanting to ban MY guns because of what HE did.



  Its not about banning your guns,it more like what is your state of mind after a few years.
I do believe that if you want to own a handgun,you should submit yourself,every couple of years, to a medical physician such as a psychologist, psychiatrists to see if you're still capable of owning a handgun.


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## That Guy (Feb 20, 2014)




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## rt3 (Feb 20, 2014)

the problem is who gets to define the conditions of the mental illness when the basic notion of protecting yourself when someone is beating on you needs no definition.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 20, 2014)

rt3 said:


> the problem is who gets to define the conditions of the mental illness when the basic notion of protecting yourself when someone is beating on you needs no definition.



Come on now, all those criminal attackers are perfectly sane rt3! They even go for annual evaluations to show their state of minds for their street-gun ownership. :rofl: (ps: that was sarcasim for those who were not aware)


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