# Forcing religion on people is wrong



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

I think it is abusive to try to get people to convert to a religion by using threats, especially if aimed at children and the vulnerable.

My parent's were 'born again' evangelical Christian Biblical literalists. My siblings and I had religion forced upon us, we were told we would burn in hell if we didn't get 'saved'. My sadistic paternal grandmother got her kicks describing the tortures of hell to me from the age of two! In the end I 'gave my heart to Jesus' when I was eleven. However the doubts about the faith soon became too great to ignore and I lost it by the time I married at 19, and left my home island to live in the UK. I certainly haven't missed it.

My husband, also a lapsed 'born again' Christian, and I firmly believe children should be permitted to make up their own minds about religion. Our three daughters are Christians, the eldest an Anglican Priest, but fortunately they are moderate in their beliefs and not Biblical literalists.

Have other posters had religion forced on them?


----------



## Keesha (Dec 12, 2018)

My parents aren’t/ weren’t religious at all BUT if there was an opportunity to ‘take advantage of’ then my parents were all for it and sending us to Sunday School was just what they did. After all, it offered them free baby sitting services for next to nothing at $0.25 per kid. 

Did I find it absusive? Considering my parents were very abusive, if this was a form of abuse,  then I wish my parents could have absused me this way everyday as opposed to their other sadistic forms  of abuse. I liked Sunday School. We learned songs and did crafts. I got to offer a quarter and take back a dime to buy candy. 

Whats not to like? :laugh:


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

Keesha said:


> My parents aren’t/ weren’t religious at all BUT if there was an opportunity to ‘take advantage of’ then my parents were all for it and sending us to Sunday School was just what they did. After all, it offered them free baby sitting services for next to nothing at $0.25 per kid.
> 
> Did I find it absusive? Considering my parents were very abusive, if this was a form of abuse,  then I wish my parents could have absused me this way everyday as opposed to their other sadistic forms  of abuse. I liked Sunday School. We learned songs and did crafts. I got to offer a quarter and take back a dime to buy candy.
> 
> Whats not to like? :laugh:



I take it you weren't threatened with the fires of hell?


----------



## Mike (Dec 12, 2018)

I agree with you, not only threats of damnation, but the
"Do Gooders" in the street or that come knocking the door
to save me!

They all get upset when I tell them that I will go to church
if I want to, or not go either, but not to any church that is
trying to force me.

In the town center there are people who stand and shout
phrases from the Bible, or their version of it, that I disagree
with too, Religion is a private matter, like Politics, keep it to
yourself.

Mike.


----------



## Pappy (Dec 12, 2018)

What Mike just said. My religion is my business and no one else’s.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Dec 12, 2018)

My parents were non-thinking religious.  They did things or believed things because that was what you did.  They were totally unable to construct an argument as to why they should believe.  I was sent to Sunday school where I was argumentative and dragged to church (Presbyterian) which I hated.  It was no surprise that I turned against religion and brought up my own children in a non-religious way.

Oddly enough, my sister is very involved in the Baptist church and my brother is an Elder in the Presbyterian church.  I was obviously the rebel in the camp!


----------



## Aunt Bea (Dec 12, 2018)

I grew up in a religious church-going family and participated until I was old enough to make my own choices about such things.

I have my beliefs/moral compass but I avoid organized religion/church.


----------



## Keesha (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> I take it you weren't threatened with the fires of hell?



No I was threatened with my father’s own ‘powers of hell.’ I was terrified of my father when I was a kid.


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

Keesha said:


> No I was threatened with my father’s own ‘powers of hell.’ I was terrified of my father when I was a kid.



Poor you, it can't be nice to be terrified of a parent. I wasn't scared of mine even though they were strict, I just did my own thing most of the time, which didn't go down well. My mother was still asking herself where she went wrong with me until the day she did us a favour and kicked the bucket in 2013.


----------



## Ronni (Dec 12, 2018)

I was raised Catholic, and kept waiting for that flash of "faith" that was supposed to visit me.  It never did.  Once I was able to make my own decisions, I stopped going to church and to confession, and felt so much better!  

As an adult, I realized how much I disliked organized religion. I would sometimes go to the Wednesday night potlucks that my mother in law urged us to go to.  They were harmless, and social events rather than anything actually religious.  It took me many years to realize that religion and spirituality are different things.  I am a very spiritual person.  I raised my children non-denominationally.  I encouraged them to check out the many different religions, taught them without the aid of the fear of God and Eternal Damnation to be kind, loving and generous spirited individuals.  The Golden Rule was our Mantra.


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

If a god of some sort exists, I hope it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible.


----------



## Tommy (Dec 12, 2018)

I am one of those who has given my life to Christ.  Just a personal observation, but I think all parents (at least those who give one whit about their children) try to impart what they consider to be their more important personal beliefs to their children.  Social beliefs. Political beliefs. Economic beliefs. Moral beliefs.  Religious beliefs.  As with all things human, the parents' ability to do this effectively varies greatly.  Some elegantly, some clumsily, most somewhere in between.

That notwithstanding, once the child reaches their late teens or early 20s, young people tend to make up their own minds irrespective of their parents wishes.

As to trying to "force" ones beliefs (social, political, economic, moral, religious) on others, I agree it can be very irritating but increasingly it seems to our nature.  Print, broadcast, an internet "news" content has become largely an endless stream of folks loudly proclaiming that their own (social, political, economic, moral, religious) beliefs are the only "right" ones.

Mercifully, at least for now, we still have the right to make up our own minds on these matters.


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

Tommy said:


> I am one of those who has given my life to Christ.  Just a personal observation, but I think all parents (at least those who give one whit about their children) try to impart what they consider to be their more important personal beliefs to their children.  Social beliefs. Political beliefs. Economic beliefs. Moral beliefs.  Religious beliefs.  As with all things human, the parents' ability to do this effectively varies greatly.  Some elegantly, some clumsily, most somewhere in between.
> 
> That notwithstanding, once the child reaches their late teens or early 20s, young people tend to make up their own minds irrespective of their parents wishes.
> 
> ...



It is very important to teach children the difference between right and wrong, you don't have to be religious to do that. In fact there is more that is wrong in the Bible than right, imo. The god depicted there comes over as a psycho, and that guy Jesus was very human with failings just like the rest of us, if the gospel accounts of his actions were correct.


----------



## BlueDragonfly (Dec 12, 2018)

I am in agreement. *Forcing* anything, even religion, on someone is wrong. God gave us free will to make the choices ourselves.


----------



## DaveA (Dec 12, 2018)

Tommy said:


> I am one of those who has given my life to Christ.  Just a personal observation, but I think all parents (at least those who give one whit about their children) try to impart what they consider to be their more important personal beliefs to their children.  Social beliefs. Political beliefs. Economic beliefs. Moral beliefs.  Religious beliefs.  As with all things human, the parents' ability to do this effectively varies greatly.  Some elegantly, some clumsily, most somewhere in between.
> 
> That notwithstanding, once the child reaches their late teens or early 20s, young people tend to make up their own minds irrespective of their parents wishes.
> 
> ...



Well said, Tom. 

 I went to Sunday school as a child and to church later when I married.  We also took our kids through the same pages and I don't think any of us were ever harmed by it.  Mom went to church, mostly to get me to Sunday school I think.  In later life my folks didn't attend church regularly and neither did my wife and I, once our kids were through with Sunday school.

We have not been a family of church-goers but I see no harm with people that do.  Their time may be better spent there on a Sunday morning than at a bar on Saturday night, but I make no judgement on whether folks are actively religious or not.  None of my affair and in the few times that someone has tried to "lead me to the paths of righteousness" I've managed to fend them off with offending them or being offended myself.

I'm far more annoyed by the political crackpots who have recently appeared on the scene.  Something that I had never encountered in my previous 80 or so years.


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

BlueDragonfly said:


> I am in agreement. *Forcing* anything, even religion, on someone is wrong. God gave us free will to make the choices ourselves.



Hmmmm if it exists god obviously enjoys watching it puppets screwing up, maybe that is how it gets its kicks!


----------



## BlueDragonfly (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> Hmmmm if it exists god obviously enjoys watching it puppets screwing up, maybe that is how it gets its kicks!



I'm sorry you are unable to have a civilized conversation to a response that you asked us for.


----------



## Furryanimal (Dec 12, 2018)

So right Yongy.I was dragged off to Catholic Church every Sunday as a child.I rejected everything by age 14 and am an atheist.Kids have to be left to make up their own minds up on this-which doesn't mean they shouldn't study the worlds religions.But no indoctrination.


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 12, 2018)

I think trying to force anything on anyone is wrong


But, forcing religion gets ugly fast


----------



## CeeCee (Dec 12, 2018)

Well I hope I don't get banned for saying this but Yongy sounds just like a banned member Justme. 

Edit..oops just looked ...Justme isn't banned but I'm sure they are the same person.


----------



## RadishRose (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> Hmmmm if it exists god obviously enjoys watching it puppets screwing up, maybe that is how it gets its kicks!



"Youngy", you've been here a few years ago, at least twice, under 2 different names, with the same rant. You were banned at least twice. 

Who do you think you are, undermining people's faith and happiness in a truly insulting way? Keep your insults to yourself! You keep sneaking back here, ranting the same things for several years now; you seem to be obsessed.

I've also seen you on another site spouting much the same vitriol.


----------



## RadishRose (Dec 12, 2018)

CeeCee said:


> Well I hope I don't get banned for saying this but Yongy sounds just like a banned member Justme.
> 
> Edit..oops just looked ...Justme isn't banned but I'm sure they are the same person.



Yup, also BlueCheese. That whole ban was lifted.

I have no issue with the topic itself, it's the insulting comments and angry manner that is unnecessary.


----------



## Yongy (Dec 12, 2018)

radishrose said:


> "youngy", you've been here a few years ago, at least twice, under 2 different names, with the same rant. You were banned at least twice.
> 
> Who do you think you are, undermining people's faith and happiness in a truly insulting way? Keep your insults to yourself! You keep sneaking back here, ranting the same things for several years now; you seem to be obsessed.
> 
> I've also seen you on another site spouting much the same vitriol.



yawn!


----------



## RadishRose (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> yawn!



Did they boot you out, Tarantula?


----------



## IKE (Dec 12, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> "Youngy", you've been here a few years ago, at least twice, under 2 different names, with the same rant. You were banned at least twice.



This may be a Matrix, SB or computer whiz question.....I'll admit to knowing absolutely diddly squat about running a web site but if a person registers under more than one name and uses the same computer / ISP address doesn't it show up ?


----------



## ClassicRockr (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> If a god of some sort exists, I hope it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible.



All I can say is...…..WHAT/WHY???????????


----------



## CeeCee (Dec 12, 2018)

IKE said:


> This may be a Matrix, SB or computer whiz question.....I'll admit to knowing absolutely diddly squat about running a web site but if a person registers under more than one name and uses the same computer / ISP address doesn't it show up ?



you can use another isp.  And aliases aren't allowed on here.  I should know, lol 

when i I was first banned as CC I would sometimes register when at my daughter's or son's or out somewhere other than Fresno.

Im being honest here.

But in all honesty, I couldn't be myself and that's  no fun....was afraid of being recognized.

That's Yongy's problem...she posts the same thing all the time and is very recognizable to older members.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 12, 2018)

> If a god of some sort exists, I hope it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible.



Amen to that, Youngy. I have often thought that the tyrannical, egotistical dictator portrayed in the Bible would not even be considered a very nice human being, let alone a God.

To get back to the "forcing" question, I think that forcing religion on anyone, regardless of their age, is a form of abuse. People do have a right to politely bring up their religious beliefs,
but if the other person is annoyed or just not interested, that should be the end of the discussion.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Dec 12, 2018)

My parents (legal Guardians), were very much church goes in the Christian Protestant Faith. Only Sunday's they didn't go was when we were visiting my mom's sisters in Michigan. There were weekends that I spent with my two cousins and their family didn't attend church. We attended the early 8:30AM service and I wound up being the person at the door to the sanctuary that would give out the church bulletin to everyone attending that service. I was also in a couple of church plays. I was also baptized. 

When I was at Boot Camp (Basic Training) for the Navy, I chose to be the Company Protestant Petty Officer. I would gather all of the Protestant men on Sunday and take them to church. During Basic, I only had to stand one Watch, because I done that. 

If I wasn't standing a Watch onboard the ship, I'd sometimes go to church services onboard on Sundays. After I got out of the Navy, I pretty much stopped going to church for many years...…….then, I met my wife. She got me into going back to church and I loved it. She is a very, but not overboard, Christian lady. We both LOVE the Lord and say a prayer every day. We really, really believe the Lord has been there for us many, many times.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Dec 12, 2018)

It's just a movie, but could actually happen, Left Behind with Nicholas Cage. A movie that made me "think".


----------



## chic (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> I think it is abusive to try to get people to convert to a religion by using threats, especially if aimed at children and the vulnerable.
> 
> My parent's were 'born again' evangelical Christian Biblical literalists. My siblings and I had religion forced upon us, we were told we would burn in hell if we didn't get 'saved'. My sadistic paternal grandmother got her kicks describing the tortures of hell to me from the age of two! In the end I 'gave my heart to Jesus' when I was eleven. However the doubts about the faith soon became too great to ignore and I lost it by the time I married at 19, and left my home island to live in the UK. I certainly haven't missed it.
> 
> ...



Yes. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. No 6 year old should go to bed at night screaming with fear about hell as the nuns described it all to us everyday for years. I left the church at 16. It was a better decision for me. God is everywhere. Not in a particular denomination of an organized religion.


----------



## Victor (Dec 12, 2018)

I agree with the OP but I do not think children have the rational ability to make a decision about religion
or religious views. They lack critical thinking until a certain age that will vary.Most adults have little true
critical thinking/skeptical understanding of religion and other issues. (I know because I taught this subject
in college and it takes critical thinking to excel at this.)
So leave religion to those who wish to practice it without persuasion or pressure.  Easy to say, hard to do
for some conservative minded theists. Historically, most religious leaders and authorities  have pushed their views on
whomever with violence, contempt and arrogance because they feel certain about their beliefs.

  I know a huge amount about this but will stop here.


----------



## Ellejay (Dec 12, 2018)

Interesting discussion, really . . . I was born into an agnostic family and my parents didn't attend church. My father took me to a church twice so I could see what it was. Boring! At least, that's what I got out of it. 

While I was reading this I wondered how anyone could "force" their religion on someone - because religion, being a deep-seated personal belief, isn't something that can be forced. You either believe it or you don't.

It appeared that those who believe the religion was forced on them are talking about times when they were children, when they had to attend Sunday School but didn't want to. Yes, parents do force their children to do things, but that's the only time in your life they can do that unless you're a slave. 

Also I see people writing about people threatening them with hell and damnation, which sounds like there was some kind of coercion going on (be good or you'll go to hell). A resentment built up leading to estrangement from the church, from God, or both.

My story is so much different. I was forced to go to Sunday School only twice - my grandmother sent me to Sunday School two times, behind the backs of my agnostic parents, because they used to leave us with her for weeks at a time.

Yes, I was forced to go, because I was a child, and we children did what the adults in our lives asked us to. But I didn't resent it. I found it somewhat interesting and I retained some of that information. Later when my mother heard me singing "Jesus Loves Me" she asked where I learned that, and I don't remember going to Sunday School anymore after that time.

Life goes on. Many, many years passed. I went in and out of a cult. I considered a lot of religions without committing to them. I called myself a label-less believer.

I didn't become a Christian until I was 61 years old, after a crisis in my life. So I probably have a much different perspective of what Christianity is than someone raised by Christian parents. For me, it is a relationship with Jesus. You either have it or you don't. It isn't something one human being can force on another. It doesn't happen that way.

Your parents could force you, as a child, to walk into that church with them. But they couldn't force you to love Jesus.

I'm personally not positively impressed with sidewalk preachers (I've only seen one in my entire lifetime so I'm guessing they're rare.) I think we all know the "Good News" and that means it isn't really "news" to any of us. So there's no need for me to tell you about any of it. You all know Jesus was here, He died on the cross for our sins, etc. . . . what more is there for me to say? All this falls on deaf ears unless you're ready for it.

I spent 61 years not being ready for it, so I understand.

Nobody can force a love of Jesus on anyone. What happened is that your parents, who you apparently didn't respect, forced you to go to church, and you resent it.


----------



## grahamg (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> I think it is abusive to try to get people to convert to a religion by using threats, especially if aimed at children and the vulnerable.
> 
> My parent's were 'born again' evangelical Christian Biblical literalists. My siblings and I had religion forced upon us, we were told we would burn in hell if we didn't get 'saved'. My sadistic paternal grandmother got her kicks describing the tortures of hell to me from the age of two! In the end I 'gave my heart to Jesus' when I was eleven. However the doubts about the faith soon became too great to ignore and I lost it by the time I married at 19, and left my home island to live in the UK. I certainly haven't missed it.
> 
> ...



You make very good points, and am intrigued your eldest is an Anglican priest (I'm sure a very well educated and tolerant/well rounded person).

Religion in the days my mother went to a small rural school in the UK was pretty over powering I'd say, and I'm not sure to this day, ten years after she died, how much of a Christian she was.

I do always prefer religions that try to "show me the way", rather than force anything down me, but can resist pretty effectively if anyone tries. At the same time I dislike the tendency to marginalise all religious thought.


----------



## hiraeth2018 (Dec 12, 2018)

One of the reasons I love our country... freedom of religion no matter what your faith is OR is not. Our history is full of anger and little to no tolerance of religious differences. My home is not religious but we are spiritual... we do not pray but honor each other as human beings and our differences as human beings. My 6 year old granddaughter spent time over Thanksgiving with another part of our family. Since then she wants to pray before eating ... folds here little hands and gives thanks for who is in her life. It's OK... her heart is in the right place and we grateful for that. 

My grandmother was a positive influence in my life... church, sunday school, etc. After she died (I was 10 or so) our church changed preachers and started sermons of fire and damnation if you sinned. I stopped going. In my 30's my daughter spent the Christmas holidays with her father so I was drawn to a friendship with a 7th Day Adventist who did not celebrate the holiday and we went to movies together. I mention this only because her spirit was peaceful, nonjudgental. 

The religious do not have to hate the nonbelievers, they only have to show love and live their own lives in it's reflection.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Dec 12, 2018)

While you write a good post Ellejay, I must disagree with your conclusions  "What happened is that your parents, who you apparently didn't respect, forced you to go to church, and you resent it."   The fact is that when you start looking into it, you can soon start making up your own mind as to whether you believe it or not.   At some stage your parents have to say, "OK, you've seen what it's about, you don't have to go if you don't want to."  If they fail to do this, they are effectively forcing their views on you.


----------



## Don M. (Dec 12, 2018)

Sometimes getting into a Religious discussion can be kind of fun.  We used to be "pestered" by local members of Jehovah's Witnesses....they came around every few weeks with their "offers".  One day, they came by while I was out puttering around in my workshop, and feeling kind of Onary.  They began their spiel, and I led them on deeper and deeper into discussing various aspects of religion.  I held them here for well over an hour, and every time they made a move to leave, I voiced another "opinion".  They began to fidget, and I think they were about to have a Bladder issue, and finally they bailed out before they wet their pants.  Since then, they haven't been back.


----------



## Ellejay (Dec 12, 2018)

Capt Lightning said:


> The fact is that when you start looking into it, you can soon start making up your own mind as to whether you believe it or not.   At some stage your parents have to say, "OK, you've seen what it's about, you don't have to go if you don't want to."  If they fail to do this, they are effectively forcing their views on you.



Not having been raised in a religious home I have never experienced that. The family dynamic might make you feel forced, maybe something like continuing in high school even though you don't want to go, but it is expected? I imagine that the Christian parents are emotionally involved in wanting their children to be saved so that sets up a confrontation that could be based on high hopes and best intentions, on the part of the parents, along with a strong dose of disappointment and distress.

I do know Christian parents whose children have chosen to live other ways, and they are sad and distressed, concerned about the well-being of their children. Should they be condemned for this?


----------



## BlueDragonfly (Dec 12, 2018)

hiraeth2018 said:


> .... After she died (I was 10 or so) *our church changed preachers and started sermons of fire and damnation if you sinned*.



Biblically speaking, that *is* the result of sin, and turning from God. 




hiraeth2018 said:


> The religious do not have to hate the nonbelievers, they only have to show love and live their own lives in it's reflection.



Complete agreement. I want to point out, sharing God's word, following His laws and encouraging others to do so is _not_ being judgemental. Nor does it mean we 'hate' nonbelievers.


----------



## Ellejay (Dec 12, 2018)

hiraeth2018 said:


> The religious do not have to hate the nonbelievers, they only have to show love and live their own lives in it's reflection.



I agree also . . . but want to say, I don't know any Christians that hate nonbelievers. That would be completely the opposite of what Christ taught, which is love and forgiveness.


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 12, 2018)

Yongy said:


> If a god of some sort exists, I hope it is nothing like the one depicted in the Bible.



Good one!


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 12, 2018)

*Well, fellow Seniors, it seems that thanks to the forum "powers that be". the OP of this thread has been escorted to the door.  That being said, I have been spending today thinking about the very thought provoking question.  
I am a Christian. Born into the Catholic Church, did not find it to my liking and wandered a bit. I was seeking something, just not sure what.  Found a Christian church a few years back, and liked the community of the whole place, joined, liked the place, and even got Baptized.  What I never much cottoned to was the ministry aspect...going out to the masses and discussing the virtures of the church and telling them why they should join. Not for me.  The way I found the church I joined was I went to a friend, said I was looking for a church and asked if he would recommend one.  He did.
The pastor of that church left, and I did not much care for the new direction the place was taking, left and joined another.
I did once have a customer in a store I worked at walk up to me and want to hand me a Bible.  Told her no thanks....I had my own beliefs.  I do not mind one on one discussions with like thinking friends, or conversations as the one here.  That is it.
Many years ago, was in a conversation with a very Christian co worker. This was back when I had no church. I told her, honestly, that while I was Christina, I also enjoyed learning about the faiths and beliefs of others, as I know that the earth is very diverse religiously, and I just am interested in knowing the story behind beliefs.  Now, I am not talking about worshiping that rock over there, but other organized beliefs, the Jewish faith, Buddism, Hindu and even Muslim.  The co worker told me that it was WRONG to want to learn about other faiths as it would just confuse me and make me turn against Christianity.  I chose to walk away from that one.

*


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 12, 2018)

I remember one line from a film where a person looking up at the crucifix said "what a vulgar symbol". I could not agree more.


----------



## DaveA (Dec 14, 2018)

Ellejay- -l also recall that song "Jesus loves me, this I know  - - - - - ". Learned it as a child in Sunday school and still remember the words today.

  I find it hard to understand all the upset from childhood.  Sunday school was just one of the normal routines that I did as  a child.  I  made my bed, cleaned my room, helped with chores, sat still at the table and arrived when called for supper, and went to school.  none of them were traumatic.  They were just what was expected of me, as a child, and most of my friends did the same. Some were Catholic and had to go to catechism on some afternoons that broke up our baseball games but it was "growing up".

There was no sinister plan at work to brainwash us but it did teach us that there was an orderly pattern to our lives and following it was a learning experience for later in life.  "It's time for Sunday school" was no different than "it's time to clean your room", when my mom stated it.

We took our kids to Sunday school and church when they were young but once they were in their teens we no longer took them and we stopped ourselves.  They have gone on with their lives, a couple still attend church and a couple don't.  They raised their kids in this same fashion and as these kids grew, they  all followed different paths.  No trauma, just a gentle up-bringing in the faith that we followed and then everyone went their own way. 

 I'm not a religious person but see no harm in children being exposed to a small bit of religious observance as a part of their learning about life.


----------



## jujube (Dec 14, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I grew up in a religious church-going family and participated until I was old enough to make my own choices about such things.
> 
> I have my beliefs/moral compass but I avoid organized religion/church.



Aunt Bea,  we must be twins!


----------



## Capt Lightning (Dec 14, 2018)

Ellejay, I think that if you had known my parents, you might understand.  They never discussed things - didn't question things.  Everything was right or wrong, black or white - never a shade of grey.  We lived in different worlds.

Do you know the poem  "This be the verse" by Philip Larkin?

" They f*** you up, your mum and dad,
   they may not mean to but they do.
   They fill you with the faults they had
   and add some extra just for you".


----------



## Sunny (Dec 14, 2018)

> * The co worker told me that it was WRONG to want to learn about other  faiths as it would just confuse me and make me turn against  Christianity. *



Marie, that brought back a really old memory from college days. A devout Christian friend said she was afraid to take a philosophy course, and nobody should take such courses, as "you end up an atheist."  If that's how strong her faith was, she was probably on the brink of losing it anyway.  How sad, to be afraid to think!


----------



## Pinky (Dec 14, 2018)

As a child, to appease my young Aunt who was a devout Christian, our father had us go to church and Bible Camp .. which we hated. Later on, as the youngest, it was me who was made
to go to Church. My parents didn't attend. I think my Aunt figured since I was the youngest, it 
would be easy to indoctrinate me.

As a pre-teen, I went to the Catholic church with Italian friends who lived across the lane. Even took communion. My parents didn't know. Later on, I attended the Buddhist church with a couple of girlfriends. I found the different religions to be interesting.

The only religion I find difficult to accept, is, Jehovah's Witnesses. I worked with a young woman who was a JW, who proselytized every lunch break, and condemned the rest of us to
Hell. 

Seventh Day Adventist's are very family-oriented. I met a couple of young New Zealander's in Australia who were SDA's, who were not preachy.

I respect anyone's choice of religion .. as long as they don't try to convert me or ram their beliefs down my throat.


----------



## Kitties (Dec 15, 2018)

My oldest brothers tried to make be become a Jehova's Witness when young. Their propaganda magazines creep me out to this day. If I ever see one someplace. I won't touch them except to throw them in the garbage which I have done. My jerk of a brother told me in my 20's: "I used to worry about you being saved but I realized I couldn't keep doing that so I stopped" No wonder I have not spoken to him since 24. I miss nothing except the knowing of a lost brother.


----------



## Linda W. (Dec 31, 2018)

If a family member tried to push me to convert to their religion, it would just make me avoid that person. I'm just as stubborn as they come. I've know that for a long time. And that has saved me from some problems, from time to time.


----------



## grahamg (Jan 1, 2019)

Here is the problem for those who think that children must be left to make their own minds up so far as religion goes. You might as well say the only religion that can be promulgated is atheism because as I used to tell my own child when she said she didn't believe in god as a young child, that she didn't understand what she didn't agree with, so could make her mind up, at least in an informed way. The good news for those who are adamantly opposed to children being educated in churches to unde stand the issues raised there, is that eventually they will of course make their own minds up. I'd prefer that to the alternative of a nation of young people devoid of any religious influences.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 1, 2019)

When my children were born I was an atheist. Even so,  I had them baptised to please other members of the family who saw this as a traditional rite of passage. I was fully aware that baptism that was not followed up with some sort of education process would be utterly meaningless.

When the children went to school they received the obligatory 30 minutes per week of religious education. Provided the instructors were not completely irrational I saw no harm in this because I had experienced the same as a child, plus Sunday school. Learning the stories about Jesus, some parables and OT myths is little different to learning about the voyages of Captain James Cook and some Greek and Roman myths. They are part of the culture in this country.

I never attempted to impose my atheism on my children but I did educate them about the natural world and the cosmos. I was, after all, a science teacher.

Eventually each of them expressed interest in church activities. My daughter joined a softball team sponsored by the local Salvation Army congregation but did not wish to attend that church. My son attended an Anglican private school for grades 7 to 12 and  for his outward bound activity chose CEBS, a religious club. By this time he was very interested in religion and in year 7 had started to read the bible from cover to cover. I would look at the bookmark from time to time and I think he gave up around Leviticus. I neither encouraged nor discouraged him.

While still an atheist I scored a position in a Catholic Girls HS.  No-one tried to influence me but I was impressed by the way the school tried very hard to live by the gospel values they believed in. In my second year I  experienced the Spirit of God as a call and I responded. However, I did not become a catholic. It took me at least 18 months before I even ventured inside a church. I chose the local Uniting Church for several reasons. One was that my children had asked to attend Sunday school there and the other was that it was a community minded congregation with age care units and a long daycare centre on site. I liked this but I was ready to bolt at the first hint of too much religiosity. I'm still there 40 years later and I am now woven into the fabric of this church community.

The above ramble is designed to illustrate that indoctrination of children is not as effective as some think. Regardless of the instruction children receive, as adults they tend to find their own path. My worry was that if they received no religious instruction at all there would surely be someone eager to fill the void. I hated the idea that they might become vulnerable to a cult and I was very watchful of the people and organisations that might lead to this outcome. That is why I preferred mainstream religious influences to nothing at all.

My passionately religious young son is now an atheist and my daughter, who also had her last two years of schooling in a religious girls' school, is a non church going Christian who seems to have internalised much that is good including generosity and inclusivity. However, she has always exhibited these characteristics so the best her religious education has done is affirm them.


----------



## grahamg (Jan 1, 2019)

Yongy said:


> It is very important to teach children the difference between right and wrong, you don't have to be religious to do that. In fact there is more that is wrong in the Bible than right, imo. The god depicted there comes over as a psycho, and that guy Jesus was very human with failings just like the rest of us, if the gospel accounts of his actions were correct.



Do you think we necessarily know what is right or wrong all the time?

For example would it be wrong to declare a book as complex as the bible in the way you've chosen to do, when most of us would probably admit we only understand a tiny fraction of it?

It is perhaps odd such a focus upon someone alive two millennia goes on today, but connecting humans to a deity in the way Christianity has tried to do is perhaps behind it. So Jesus being like the rest of us is one intrinsic element, as is the paradox of not being like us at the same time.


----------



## twinkles (Jan 1, 2019)

i go on facebook to look at my grand children--i notice it is getting a lot of verses from the bible and people preaching--my oldest daughter(that doesnt speak to me) is in that group--they need to practice what they preach


----------



## Sunny (Jan 1, 2019)

> Do you think we necessarily know what is right or wrong all the time?
> 
> For example would it be wrong to declare a book as complex as the bible  in the way you've chosen to do, when most of us would probably admit we  only understand a tiny fraction of it?



That same logic could apply to any ancient book of magic. Maybe it's party right and partly wrong; we clearly don't really understand it enough to make a decision about it? Well-meaning as that reasoning may be,
it's a copout.  Any bit of nonsense can be viewed as non-understandable by us.  

The thing is, the burden of proof is on whoever (or whatever book) makes a statement. And if the book is not understandable by most people who read it, that is the book's fault, not the people's. The fact that an ancient piece of writing is not understandable is definitely not an argument in its favor.


----------



## MeAgain (Jan 1, 2019)

Tommy said:


> I am one of those who has given my life to Christ.  Just a personal observation, but I think all parents (at least those who give one whit about their children) try to impart what they consider to be their more important personal beliefs to their children.  Social beliefs. Political beliefs. Economic beliefs. Moral beliefs.  Religious beliefs.  As with all things human, the parents' ability to do this effectively varies greatly.  Some elegantly, some clumsily, most somewhere in between.
> 
> That notwithstanding, once the child reaches their late teens or early 20s, young people tend to make up their own minds irrespective of their parents wishes.
> 
> ...



I agree.


----------



## Gary O' (Jan 1, 2019)

Tommy said:


> I am one of those who has given my life to Christ.  Just a personal observation, but I think all parents (at least those who give one whit about their children) try to impart what they consider to be their more important personal beliefs to their children.  Social beliefs. Political beliefs. Economic beliefs. Moral beliefs.  Religious beliefs.  As with all things human, the parents' ability to do this effectively varies greatly.  Some elegantly, some clumsily, most somewhere in between.
> 
> That notwithstanding, once the child reaches their late teens or early 20s, young people tend to make up their own minds irrespective of their parents wishes.
> 
> ...



So well put, this should be copied to every page of this thread

(of course that's just my opinion, and wouldn't try to force this on anyone)


----------



## fmdog44 (Jan 1, 2019)

"Spread the Word" is a fudemental of religions so it is expected and demanded of those that believe. As annoying as it is I understand their wanting to share what they believe is the only way to live. Anyway, don't worry because the internet has replaced religion. Don't agree? Well, the next time you are outside check how many people are staring at their phones and how many are praying?


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 1, 2019)

fmdog, spreading the word can be done in various ways. As St Francis of Assisi advised his brothers, 

“Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.” 

More people are drawn to religion by kindness and acceptance than are ever converted by being preached at. 
Christianity is closest to the teachings of Jesus when it is expressed in concern for the neighbour who is in need.
Taking care of those needs is explicitly required of all of his followers. Preaching is not. It is a specialised vocation.

A more modern saying is that Christianity is caught, not taught.


----------



## Gary O' (Jan 1, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> As St Francis of Assisi advised his brothers,
> 
> “Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.”



I'm gonna filch that'n


----------



## KingsX (Jan 5, 2019)

.

Forcing atheism on people is also wrong.

.


----------



## RadishRose (Jan 5, 2019)

I agree.


----------

