# The difference between men and women



## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

If a person wishes to attract the opposite gender, whether it is just to get attention, or for romance, how that is accomplished depends upon whether you are male or female.  

Women know, and have known since the dawn of time, and with absolute certainty, that men are most swayed by what they see. In the world of women, they have a thousand choices from which to choose their bait.  Think about that for a moment. Why do you suppose there are specialty locations which are called "Beauty" Salons?  A woman can enter and have her hair done up in hundreds of different styles and colors. She can have complete "facials" and have as much make-up applied as she desires. Additionally, she can have manicures and pedicures done in a rainbow of colors. The total effect can often be dazzling. Oh, you say you doubt that ? Remember the scene in the film "Moonstruck" ? Do you remember Cher, before and after the beauty salon? 

But wait, we are just scratching the surface of how women make themselves attractive. The next biggest ticket is clothing.
Women's clothing is designed primarily to one end --- to show off her figure to its best effect. The choices women have is mind-boggling. Deeply cut blouses, sweaters, and dresses are fashioned to place her cleavage on proud display. This is no accident. It is done to make people notice her feminine figure.

The length of the, skirt or dress, hem-line is usually above the knee and sometimes much, much higher. Why ? To show off her womanly  legs and to show more skin. If she has a tiny waist you can be sure that will also be proudly displayed. In fact much of her wardrobe is so incredibly tight that it is often difficult to know whether she is wearing pants or spray paint. 

Even a woman's shoes are often designed to show off her feet and well pedicured nails. And stiletto's absolutely scream, sexy.

A well dressed woman, with complete make-up, and her hair done up just right, has merely to show up at any public location and she is sure to get attention. If the timing and location is right, men will trip over themselves, to attempt to talk with her. She is now in a position to pick and choose from amongst her potential suitors.

Now, let's compare how men get women's attention AND get her to come to him. About the only hope he has is to be well groomed, with neat clean clothes, polished shoes and perhaps wearing a light cologne. Even with that done, the chances of him getting her to come to him, are remote. It is important to notice that he does not have the option of showing off skin. Women, in a social gathering,  just don't care about bare skin on a man. Look at any well dressed businessman and the only skin you will see is his face, neck and hands. 

Men approach women, knowing full well, that he will be rebuffed 9 out of 10 times.  It is a numbers game for the man, he MUST make many attempts if he has any chance of ever getting a date.


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## hollydolly (Feb 3, 2018)

Rebuffed 9 time out of 10?...I wouldn't think so... not if he's smartly dressed, smelling nicely, , well mannered  and isn't a creep...


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## Gary O' (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Men approach women, knowing full well, that he will be rebuffed 9 out of 10 times.  It is a numbers game for the man, he MUST make many attempts if he has any chance of ever getting a date.



Back when I was single, I'da taken those odds

_*Butch Cassidy*_: Alright. I'll jump first. 
_*Sundance Kid*_: No. 
_*Butch Cassidy*_: Then _*you*_ jump first. 
_*Sundance Kid*_: No, I said. 
_*Butch Cassidy*_: What's the matter with _*you*_? 
_*Sundance Kid*_: I _*can*_'t swim. 
_*Butch Cassidy*_: Are _*you*_ crazy? The _*fall will*_ probably _*kill you

*_


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuN-tFvgRc0

*go get 'em, keeler*


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Back when I was single, I'da taken those odds.


Bakerman
You betcha.  And so would a lot of other guys.  It does not matter how well dressed, groomed and super polite he is, he is going to get shot down much, much more than any woman could imagine. Of course, at our age, it is a moot point.


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## Sunny (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler, I think you are placing too much emphasis on outer appearance. This may be the level that appeals to teenage boys, but by the time a person reaches "maturity," there are other characteristics that matter a whole lot more, in attracting the opposite gender. (Or even their own, if they are gay).

I think as people get older, they are much more interested in empathy, intelligence, a sense of humor, similar political and religious viewpoints, a pleasant personality, etc.  All the time in the world spent in beauty salons will not make up for the lack of those characteristics.  Inner beauty counts for a lot more.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Traveler, I think you are placing too much emphasis on outer appearance. This may be the level that appeals to teenage boys, but by the time a person reaches "maturity," there are other characteristics that matter a whole lot more, in attracting the opposite gender. (Or even their own, if they are gay).
> 
> I think as people get older, they are much more interested in empathy, intelligence, a sense of humor, similar political and religious viewpoints, a pleasant personality, etc.  All the time in the world spent in beauty salons will not make up for the lack of those characteristics.
> Inner beauty counts for a lot more.




Please remember I am talking about FIRST impressions, ie what a man sees before he has said a word to the woman. He can't possibly know a single thing about her before he tries to engage her in conversation.
I hate to disagree with you but there isn't a straight man alive, whatever his age, who has not admired an attractive woman. Age does not make him blind.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

I would kindly ask people to read what I actually say and not attempt to put words in my mouth. If you STILL have a question about what I'm talking about, ask me. I'll be happy to answer.


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## Vega_Lyra (Feb 3, 2018)

Just for fun :


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## IKE (Feb 3, 2018)

Vega_Lyra;....Just for fun.

[IMG said:
			
		

> https://www.toonpool.com/user/324/files/money_86775.jpg[/IMG]


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

Ike and Vega_Lyra, love your posts. So very true.


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## Gary O' (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Bakerman
> You betcha.  And so would a lot of other guys.  It does not matter how well dressed, groomed and super polite he is, he is going to get shot down much, much more than any woman could imagine. Of course, at our age, it is a moot point.


Basic, early teen stuff
Not long after, a guy learns something
Wimin are cats
Min are dawgs
Study those four legged critters a bit

Cats preen, pose
Dawgs sniff, fetch
Cats are no more curious than us dawgs
As we find them fascinating
However, sniff the wrong end (the head)
and, well, you won’t soon do it again

Traveller, yer wasting precious time sniffing the head

and quit all that self licking, it’s disgusting 

Most of this is in metaphor

But

Ever wonder why wimin are sometimes referred to by us dawgs as ‘fetching’? 

*EFFING WOOF!*


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## Sunny (Feb 3, 2018)

> Now, let's compare how men get women's attention AND get her to come to  him. About the only hope he has is to be well groomed, with neat clean  clothes, polished shoes and perhaps wearing a light cologne. Even with  that done, the chances of him getting her to come to him, are remote. It  is important to notice that he does not have the option of showing off  skin. Women, in a social gathering,  just don't care about bare skin on a  man. Look at any well dressed businessman and the only skin you will  see is his face, neck and hands.



OK, Traveler, the above is what you "actually said."  Read it over for yourself, and then decide what century you are actually living in!  

Neat, clean clothes?  Well, maybe clean, but how many young men look "neat" these days, outside of a business setting?

Polished shoes?  Oh, puh-leeze! Again, you are characterizing men as being the old stereotype of successful businessmen, while the women are frivolous airheads spending lots of time and money on beauty treatments.  

A light cologne?  Gadzooks, that would probably drive away more women than it would attract!  (Well, at least you didn't say heavy perfume.) 

No Traveler, the above, rather pathetic attempt to preen oneself as if one were an animal, would largely not work in today's world. Not even as a first impression. People who look as if they were the ones you describe in your first note would put a lot of people off. They would look like phonies.

So what does attract, then?  Well, it's all a lot more subtle than that. We are not actors strutting around on a stage. And unless they are, as I said, teenage boys, most men are looking for other qualities in a woman.

Why do women bother with hair, makeup, clothes, etc, at all, then?  I think it's more to please themselves about the way they look, not to attract some poor schlemiel who is ripe for the picking.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

Everything depends upon *where *a person is and a life-time of experience. Obviously, if the man is at a champagne luncheon at the yacht club he would have to be dressed as the other men. Conversely, if he was at the beach, playing volleyball with a bunch of co-workers, he would be dressed differently. 

It also depends upon social standing and the type of people he is mixing with. Anyone who thinks that women do not notice a man's financial status, has not dated, lived with, or married any women who enjoy shopping for expensive attire and living "the good life". Silk blouses are not exactly cheap. 

Moreover, a man who is involved in real-estate investment, is going to have an entirely different set of life experiences than a truck driver. A man who lives in a high-end gated community will have a *vastly *different life experience than a man who rents a one-bedroom apartment and works as a cook at Denny's.


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## C'est Moi (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler, I hate to say it but you sound bitter.   You should not use such blanket statements about all women, or all men for that matter.   There are plenty of men who look for a wealthy meal ticket as you very well know.   Women are perfectly competent to support themselves nowadays and don't "need" a man for that purpose.     You might also be surprised to find that women usually dress for THEMSELVES and not because some man might approve or disapprove.  

Perhaps it's your outlook that turns women away from you.  

I believe our standards of what we find attractive in a person changes and evolves over the years as we realize what's truly important in a person.    Looks fade but kindness never does.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Traveler, I hate to say it but you sound bitter.   You should not use such blanket statements about all women, or all men for that matter.   There are plenty of men who look for a wealthy meal ticket as you very well know.   Women are perfectly competent to support themselves nowadays and don't "need" a man for that purpose.     You might also be surprised to find that women usually dress for THEMSELVES and not because some man might approve or disapprove.
> 
> Perhaps it's your outlook that turns women away from you.
> 
> I believe our standards of what we find attractive in a person changes and evolves over the years as we realize what's truly important in a person.    Looks fade but kindness never does.




C'est Moi, you have always been a reasonable person in your posts, so I will share with you that I am well out of the game as far as women are concerned. I am not looking for any more relationships. I've been there and done that. I don't even attempt to date any longer. It follows then, that women are not turning away from me. 

I should also like to point out that I never said ALL women. As a matter of fact I am well aware that there are many women who are quite content living with a caring/loving man, regardless of his financial position. I hope I've put that idea to bed. (pun intended)

All I ever meant to say is that, quite by strange fate, I happened to have once been around many fashion models. I've heard them talk about what they want in a man, and it left a very powerful impression. Such women do *NOT *date men who are of a lower socio-economic class. Such women date powerful or famous, wealthy men.

 Several examples of women who did not "need" a man for money: Jackie Kennedy, a very wealthy woman in her own right, did not marry Aristotle Onassis because he was handsome, or kind.  She married him because he was one of the richest men in the world. Grace Kelly would never, under any conditions, have married Prince Ranier of Monaco if he was a small-time restaurant owner. The list is endless, and is *not *limited to famous women. 

Having once been financially well off, I can state with absolute certainty, that there is a huge difference between which women are potentially available to a financially secure man and a man who is not financially secure.


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## C'est Moi (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> C'est Moi, you have always been a reasonable person in your posts, so I will share with you that I am well out of the game as far as women are concerned. I am not looking for any more relationships. I've been there and done that. I don't even attempt to date any longer. It follows then, that women are not turning away from me.
> 
> I should also like to point out that I never said ALL women. As a matter of fact I am well aware that there are many women who are quite content living with a caring/loving man, regardless of his financial position. I hope I've put that idea to bed. (pun intended)
> 
> ...



Yep, I think we all agree that each of us is looking for something different in a potential mate.   I don't disagree that some people are shallow and only want a partner that elevates their opinion of themselves in some fashion.   Some men marry "arm candy" and discard the unfortunate wife as soon as she has the poor judgement to grow older.    She gets unceremoniously traded in for a newer model.   

So yes.   People choose a partner for all kinds of reasons.   Looks, money, perceived prestige, etc.   But that by no means is limited to women.   

Nice talking with you, Traveler.   Hope you're having a good weekend.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> Yep, I think we all agree that each of us is looking for something different in a potential mate.   I don't disagree that some people are shallow and only want a partner that elevates their opinion of themselves in some fashion.   Some men marry "arm candy" and discard the unfortunate wife as soon as she has the poor judgement to grow older.    She gets unceremoniously traded in for a newer model.
> 
> So yes.   People choose a partner for all kinds of reasons.   Looks, money, perceived prestige, etc.   But that by no means is limited to women.
> 
> Nice talking with you, Traveler.   Hope you're having a good weekend.




Yes, I absolutely agree. It also is important to remember that where a person lives and who he/she spends time with can greater influence how a person thinks. Example: a woman who has been very poorly treated by men her entire life is not likely to have a very high opinion of men in general. I'm quite sure we all have known some very angry militant feminists.  She has some valid points; men can also have valid points.

Thank you, C'est Moi.  I'm having a great weekend. Cooking up a storm getting ready for tomorrow's Super Bowl. I hope your weekend is great as well.


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## C'est Moi (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> ...  Thank you, C'est Moi.  I'm having a great weekend. Cooking up a storm getting ready for tomorrow's Super Bowl. I hope your weekend is great as well.



I'm having a good weekend so far, thanks.   Share some more recipes in the Recipe thread; I want to know what you're making.


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## hearlady (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler didn't you devote an entire thread seeking to find what women want? 
Let it go, man. Be yourself. If you like to dress like a fine gentleman and "woo" a lady there is someone out there for you. Stopped looking and she will happen along when you least expect it. I hope she knocks your socks off.


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## hearlady (Feb 3, 2018)

Ok I replied before I saw that you are not looking for anyone. But the rest still applies.
And it's not meant to insult you.


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## Sunny (Feb 3, 2018)

Traveler, your perspective on this seems to have changed pretty drastically since your first note. Look at the title you gave this thread, then reread your first note. You seemed, then, to be talking about men and women in general, portraying women as gold-digging floozies working hard to look like Barbie dolls. Men's chief positive attribute was apparently being well-groomed and looking like rich businessmen, in order to get one of these trophy wives.

I hope that this discussion has brought you closer to reality. You say you have spent a lot of your life around models, and apparently have reached some pretty far-fetched conclusions about half of the human race based on your perceptions. You didn't give dates, but I have a feeling that your impressions go pretty far back in time. But open your eyes and look around at today's world. That description was so untrue and stereotypical that it is simply ridiculous.  

I'm pretty old, Traveler, and am well-acquainted with young (and middle-aged) adults. I am happy to say that the gold-diggers that you are describing have not been a part of my life. I have seen these characters in movies and shows, and I suppose some of them exist in real life, but they are not a majority. Both the men and women you are describing are a tiny minority.

I really do believe that both men and women want someone who is primarily a friend, their best friend, who loves, respects, and encourages them in their journey through life. Good looks are very
nice, but only a very shallow person would put a high priority value on them.


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Traveler didn't you devote an entire thread seeking to find what women want?
> Let it go, man. Be yourself. If you like to dress like a fine gentleman and "woo" a lady there is someone out there for you. Stopped looking and she will happen along when you least expect it. I hope she knocks your socks off.



Thank you, Hearlady.  What a kind thing to say. I have been lucky enough to have 2 great loves in my life. Rather like winning the lotto, twice. I don't expect it to happen again.


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## Stormy (Feb 3, 2018)

You're right Traveler women can dress and fix themselves up in lots of different ways to attract attention and men don't have so many choices. Women have an easier time attracting a man and getting a date. Men usually don't have that advantage and get rejected more often. But the type of woman or man you describe isn't common and is more like a fashion model or a celebrity in Hollywood not the average person. Most of us might take a second look at a well dressed guy but we like sincere men with good personalities to start a relationship. I can attract or be attracted to a man wearing blue jeans and a sweat shirt. A man or a woman who is too set on looking like a model usually has some serious personality problems themselves and wouldn't make a good partner. Beauty is only skin deep


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Traveler, your perspective on this seems to have changed pretty drastically since your first note. Look at the title you gave this thread, then reread your first note. You seemed, then, to be talking about men and women in general, portraying women as gold-digging floozies working hard to look like Barbie dolls. Men's chief positive attribute was apparently being well-groomed and looking like rich businessmen, in order to get one of these trophy wives.
> 
> I hope that this discussion has brought you closer to reality. You say you have spent *a lot of your life around models*, and apparently have reached some pretty far-fetched conclusions about half of the human race based on your perceptions. You didn't give dates, but I have a feeling that your impressions go pretty far back in time. But open your eyes and look around at today's world. That description was so untrue and stereotypical that it is simply ridiculous.





I never said I spent a lot of my life around models. What I said was, *"I happened to have once been around many models" * The 2 statements are vastly different. If you are going to try to quote me, I wish you would, please, at least do so accurately. 

To describe my entire life's experiences can not be done in a few sentences. It would take a book. My opinions are NOT based exclusively on just a few women that I have known, but rather on many different women I have worked with, or had as friends, or as lovers or  married. And upon the wives and GF's of men I have known. 
Moreover, my opinions are also based on women I have known in numerous other countries. How can anyone know what I have experienced in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Manila, Bangkok and a host of American cities and towns?

Does anyone recall the old saying about not judging a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins ?


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## Traveler (Feb 3, 2018)

I'd like to take this chance to slow things down a bit and speak from a totally different analogy.  I happen to be a white man, nothing to brag about, just an accident of birth. Do I know all about the lives of African Americans ? No, of course not. I have not had their daily experiences. If a black man said to me, "I hate racist cops. They are always targeting blacks for harassment".  And, if on the following day I spoke with several police officers and I told them what I heard, they would most likely totally deny any such thing. 

The point I am trying to make here is that what people believe, depends upon where they stand, and how they live their lives. The fact that cops would deny any such racism does not mean that the African American man I spoke with is wrong. 

The same idea applies to the experiences of men vs. those experiences of women. Different lives, different perspectives. And very often dramatically different realities.


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## Sunny (Feb 4, 2018)

"_If I've never learned anything else in this life, it is this, a woman  will never, ever, say to a man, "I'm sorry. You were right and I was  wrong"_
Um, I haven't heard you say it either, Traveler, in spite of the fact that you've been firmly contradicted by nearly all the women (and some of the men!) on this bb.

"_Suggestion, spend some time on Rodeo Drive, in the very heart of Beverly Hills, and watch who shops at the ultra-expensive big-name boutiques._"
Sigh, yes, it's a safe bet that if you look at boutiques featuring women's attire, jewelry, makeup, etc., you're likely to find a preponderance of female shoppers. Just as a shop featuring football jerseys, for instance would most likely have a preponderance of male shoppers.  So, what on earth is that supposed to prove?

"_If a person wishes to attract the opposite gender, whether it is just to  get attention, or for romance, how that is accomplished depends upon  whether you are male or female."

"Women know, and have known since the dawn of time, and with absolute certainty, that men are most swayed by what they see."_
Sounds pretty general to me. But, once you were backing down,
_
"I should also like to point out that I never said ALL women. As a matter of fact I am well aware that there are many women who are quite content living with a caring/loving man, regardless of his financial position."

_At last, a glimmer of hope! 

One thing you raised near the end of this discussion is sort of a valid point, though it's probably not the point you were trying to make. You said that people's viewpoints vary according to their particular situation and experiences in life. I think you are pretty obviously referring to financial status, but I think it's more true when considered in the light of geographical location.

I gather you are from California, Traveler. (Even though your name implies that you have traveled a lot). This fixation on show-offy status, physical beauty, etc. is very much a product of California. Watch the series "Big Little Lies" for a glorious example. It's one reason that, wherever I've lived, Californians are often not welcome as new residents. People resent that attitude. It does not reflect the population as a whole, only a small portion of it, who clearly don't "get it."

Thank you, anyway, for inspiring a lively discussion, and for being flexible enough to at least back off a little bit, once you had given the matter some thought.


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## Dragonlady (Feb 4, 2018)

one of the things that has been overlooked is that the "Choice" game is a two way street. Yes - women have a choice when men ask them out, but you overlook the fact that men have a choice also - they get to choose who they ask out. There has, for centuries, been an ongoing competition among many (if not most) men for the most attractive women. From a biological standpoint attractiveness supposedly equals health and fertility (necessities for successful reproduction). The same is true for men with the additional ability to protect and provide for said family. It exists in all of us to varying degrees - whether or not we are aware of it. I suspect that it is strongest when we are at our youngest and healthiest, but I have no proof of it - just an opinion. Age and experience may blunt it.


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## Dragonlady (Feb 4, 2018)

> _If I've never learned anything else in this life, it is this, a woman   will never, ever, say to a man, "I'm sorry. You were right and I was   wrong_



My experience has been just the opposite. To admit error is tantamount to losing face. This diminishes his feeling of power (i.e. as head of household, etc.) There are females who, of course, maintain their infallibility - for similar reasons, but it has been my experience that they are vastly outnumbered by males


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

I have very carefully read all of the attacks on my views and I can not find a single thing I said which was not true. Not one !  There must be something quite threatening about what I say, but I surely don't know what it is.  I most certainly have NOT called any women any names. I have NOT said that women are in any way "bad" or that they are "airheads". I have NOT said that women are less intelligent or that they are not capable of attaining high professional status.

So, ladies, what have I said that is so threatening ?


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## Sassycakes (Feb 4, 2018)

This just reminds me of something I have heard many times. Women think with their Brains and men think with another part of their bodies. A woman knows what attracts that part of the Man's attention and all men care about is the part of the woman they hope to get.:wink:


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

Oh, no. Bad, bad boys. Men like sex. What a terrible thing. Straight men like sex. Gay men like sex. If men didn't like sex so much, the population of the earth would be --- zero.


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

The entire point of this thread is to compare and contrast how men and women make themselves attractive to the opposite gender. (read my post #1)

Women, as a general rule, are in competition with each other in order to gain the most attention. They do this by spending a small fortune on: cosmetics, skin conditioners, hair care products, manicures, pedicures, a vast array of clothing, shoes, hair stylists, and jewelry. Men find all of this quite attractive. Yet, women deny that they are doing all of their "beauty" treatments to attract the attention of men. 

Well, ladies, all of your efforts, throughout all of human history, to make yourselves look sexy and attractive to men has been phenomenally successful. You have gained our attention. We, as men, appreciate your efforts. Thank you.


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

Many advertisements and articles in women's magazines, such as Cosmo, Allure, Elle and dozens of others talk about sexy this and sexy that. Sexy shoes, sexy blouses, sexy hair styles, sexy dresses, sexy eye make-up, etc, etc. Those magazines, exclusively for women, make an absolute fortune pushing their products. There are millions of women who buy those products.

For those who to try find some way to deny this, please note: I did not say ALL women.

Any complaints so far ? Does anybody deny that there are such magazines which are devoted almost exclusively to feminine beauty ?


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

for those who do not know what I'm talking about. This it it ! The photo comes from a woman's magazine and the article accompanying it describes how "seductive' the dress is. Who is she trying to seduce ?  Some man, that's who. It would certainly work with me.
P.S. I am in no possible way saying or hinting that there is anything wrong with what she is doing. It may not be every woman's choice but it seems to work for her.


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## Traveler (Feb 4, 2018)

Here is another photo of a woman dressing to "please herself". She, of course, has no idea of its affect on men.


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## Warrigal (Feb 4, 2018)

Actually that advertisement is attempting to seduce readers into buying their overly expensive products. If seduction doesn't work then body shaming will do the trick. That heavily photoshopped image, of an impossibly perfect woman is dangled in front of young women who are already insecure about their looks, and hey presto, another customer for the beauty industry is created. This kind of manipulation is effective on immature girls, and once hooked, they continue to be customers for life even though they never achieve the perfection of the model.

As a teen I plastered my face with layers of makeup and felt naked without it. My hair was curled and lacquered because my naturally straight hair was not in vogue. Then I read The Female Eunuch and realised that I could go out in public without wearing the war paint to hide my natural looks. Ditto the painted nails and the elasticised underwear that was completely unnecessary for the young trim body that I had back then. I stopped sleeping with my hair in uncomfortable plastic curlers and decided that I would please myself about how I looked. Over the years I have saved thousands on beauty products and I have developed my own style of dressing. It relies more on bright colours than naked skin. I'm happy and so is Hubby. He likes the way I look, with or without cosmetic enhancements.

None of my female relatives attempt the kind of sexy dressing that you describe although when we go out we do like to "look nice".


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

Two of my granddaughters. 

Top - L*** who is a singer and is seen here at a gig at a café.
She has a long term boyfriend that she has known from school.







Below - C****, who works in hospitality. 
Seen here eating out looking fresh and natural.
She is married to a motor mechanic who met her through mutual friends and then rang her up to ask for a date.
He had to get past her father who met him at the gate when he came to take her out on a first date.






I really don't know what your reality is like - it sounds horrible - but there is another reality out there.


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## hearlady (Feb 5, 2018)

Traveler, I am a Grandma. Not the sexy Grandma type. The role poly "I made you some cookies dear" type.
I don't live in California. I live in North Carolina. I don't look at Cosmo or allure, etc. Not sure why you do.
The thought of a young man going after me for sex is about as funny as him going after me for my money.
I think the debate on this subject is fine but at my age I can agree there are many differences between men and women and leave it there.
I think you're right about one thing. If people don't like your thread they should movie on.


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## hearlady (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal you're granddaughters are beautiful.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Actually that advertisement is attempting to seduce readers into buying their overly expensive products. If seduction doesn't work then body shaming will do the trick. That heavily photoshopped image, of an impossibly perfect woman is dangled in front of young women who are already insecure about their looks, and hey presto, another customer for the beauty industry is created. This kind of manipulation is effective on immature girls, and once hooked, they continue to be customers for life even though they never achieve the perfection of the model.
> 
> As a teen I plastered my face with layers of makeup and felt naked without it. My hair was curled and lacquered because my naturally straight hair was not in vogue. Then I read The Female Eunuch and realised that I could go out in public without wearing the war paint to hide my natural looks. Ditto the painted nails and the elasticised underwear that was completely unnecessary for the young trim body that I had back then. I stopped sleeping with my hair in uncomfortable plastic curlers and decided that I would please myself about how I looked. Over the years I have saved thousands on beauty products and I have developed my own style of dressing. It relies more on bright colours than naked skin. I'm happy and so is Hubby. He likes the way I look, with or without cosmetic enhancements.
> 
> None of my female relatives attempt the kind of sexy dressing that you describe although when we go out we do like to "look nice".





Warrigal, I must compliment you on a very well thought out, and well written post. Excellent food for thought. I do, however, believe there is a step "beyond" what you so accurately describe. 

My ex, at age 44, would spend about 45 minutes every workday morning applying her make-up and general primping.  Now that I think about it she would not even leave the house on the weekends, to get some breakfast with me, without putting on what she called "her face".


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

They are, Hearlady,  inside and out.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> They are, inside and out.



Sorry, I don't understand what that means.


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Warrigal, I must compliment you on a very well thought out, and well written post. Excellent food for thought. I do, however, believe there is a step "beyond" what you so accurately describe.
> 
> My ex, at age 44, would spend about 45 minutes every workday morning applying her make-up and general primping.  Now that I think about it she would not even leave the house on the weekends, to get some breakfast with me, without putting on what she called "her face".



There are women like that. One of my cousins married one. Even when she had a newborn baby she would not do anything at all in the morning before she was fully made up. My cousin had to attend to the crying baby because she wasn't ready.

To me, this behaviour is an aberration. I consider such women emotionally crippled by their early conditioning. I hate the way little girls are being sexualised these days in their very tender years. Again, I blame the mothers who allow them to habitually were nail polish and makeup and dress in clothing with ****** slogans. It will take years of deconditioning to remove these ideas of self image in later years.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> There are women like that. One of my cousins married one. Even when she had a newborn baby she would not do anything at all in the morning before she was fully made up. My cousin had to attend to the crying baby because she wasn't ready.
> 
> To me, this behaviour is an aberration. I consider such women emotionally crippled by their early conditioning. I hate the way little girls are being sexualised these days in their very tender years. Again, I blame the mothers who allow them to habitually were nail polish and makeup and dress in clothing with ****** slogans. It will take years of deconditioning to remove these ideas of self image in later years.




Ok, great answer.  I fully accept what you say.  Question: Do you believe that insecurity you speak of applies to all women who spend so much time on applying make-up and doing her hair ?  Does it apply to models and "movie stars". Both of us have seen the ladies at the "Oscars". They obviously didn't just slap something together.  Days, perhaps even weeks, of thought and planning went into how they would display themselves, on the red carpet, before the ceremony. And those dresses cost $10,000 plus.  
I don't mean to be a smart a** but they look pretty darn secure to me.


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

Do you remember the fuss when Julia Roberts revealed her unshaven armpits? 






https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/11-celebrities-hairy-armpits-julia-3784706

The women on the red carpet and the catwalk are under enormous pressure to present the image du jour. They are ambassadors for the fashion, film and associated industries. Few of them pay for their own frocks and accessories and they do what they are told else they are pilloried mercilessly.

Don't forget that some of these women were once so insecure that they put up with men like Harvey Weinstein rather than knee them in the goolies.


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## hearlady (Feb 5, 2018)

Yes the pressure in Hollywood is enormous. If I have a bad hair day or put on a few pounds I can say " at least I don't get paid to look good."
I do wear makeup to work to present a professional image and admit I don't leave the house without a little makeup. It feels like part of grooming to me not a mask.
Some of things we've discussed take me it way over the top but that's the case with anything.
We all want to look our best whether attracting a mate or a client or pleasing ourselves.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Do you remember the fuss when Julia Roberts revealed her unshaven armpits?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





REALLY ?  WOW !  I had no idea.  All of those famous women like Demi Moore , Cher, and Julia Roberts have their gowns paid for by the industry ?  And they must do as they are told ? I would have thought that such famous women like Demi and Cher and Julia would have more than enough power to tell the industry where to stick it. 

No, I don't remember anything about Julia Roberts unshaved arm pits. She got in trouble over that ?
I do recall that semi-recently Demi Moore had all her clothes stolen from her hotel room while she was at some big event. She reported the loss was in the neighborhood of $230,000 USD


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## Sunny (Feb 5, 2018)

Hey, Traveler, it seems to me you are protesting a bit too much. You raise an absolutely absurd argument, which would describe a horrifying relationship between men and women, using every antiquated stereotype in the book. In your first post, you dangled it in front of us like so much bait.

Then, when you got the desired response from everyone, you became all huffy and defensive, insisting that your absurdity was right, although you did make a few small concessions ("I didn't say ALL women, etc.")  And you can't seem to let go of the issue.

You seem to be outraged that most people don't see the world through your glasses, warped though they may be.  Maybe it's time to let this issue go?


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## Knight (Feb 5, 2018)

I think circumstances and age differ in how we are attracted to the opposite sex.  Teens vs. 30/40 somethings vs seniors. High school sweethearts, vs meeting a stranger & lastly the loss of partner/significant other in later years. 


Teens I think it's more about social interaction in a peer group. 




Later in life like the 30/40 group physical appearance dictates. What goes on in your mind when you see a 350lb man at the beach in a speedo swimming suit? Or a 350 lb. woman in a string bikini? 


Seniors personal appearance doing the best you can beats giving up.




There are products and services to reach the wants of both men and women in each phase of life. It comes down to pride in yourself and doing the best with what you are born with within your economic means.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 5, 2018)

Traveler said:


> for those who do not know what I'm talking about. This it it ! The photo comes from a woman's magazine and the article accompanying it describes how "seductive' the dress is. Who is she trying to seduce ?  Some man, that's who. It would certainly work with me.
> P.S. I am in no possible way saying or hinting that there is anything wrong with what she is doing. It may not be every woman's choice but it seems to work for her.



Question: if this ad is in a woman's magazine, how is the model seducing men? 

I would think she's saying "Buy this dress and you'll look just like me, girls".


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## C'est Moi (Feb 5, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Question: if this ad is in a woman's magazine, how is the model seducing men?
> 
> I would think she's saying "Buy this dress and you'll look just like me, girls".



I think she's saying, "thanks to Photoshop I have never looked like this in my life and never will."


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## SifuPhil (Feb 5, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> I think she's saying, "thanks to Photoshop I have never looked like this in my life and never will."



Heh, heh ... that too.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 5, 2018)

BUT ... I see fuzz on her arm and leg.

EEWWWW! How could any man want her?!?


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## 911 (Feb 5, 2018)

Women are better liars. Before anyone goes off on me, don't take what I just wrote to heart. What I have found over the years, is that when I would do a traffic stop, mostly for either speeding, inspection sticker or registration out of date, the women always had much better stories than the men. 

Quick story. I remember stopping a woman for speeding, which I believe she was doing 50 in a 25 mph zone, or something relative to that. When I asked her if she knew why I had stopped her, of course, she answered, "No." After that she asked me if I was going to cite her and I asked her why was she speeding, thinking maybe there might be a good reason for it. Then, she asked me if I ever let anyone go before that was caught speeding and I told her, "Yes." So, then she asks me, "Well, what did they say?" 

I just told her to slow down and have a nice day.


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

Traveler said:


> REALLY ?  WOW !  I had no idea.  All of those famous women like Demi Moore , Cher, and Julia Roberts have their gowns paid for by the industry ?  And they must do as they are told ? I would have thought that such famous women like Demi and Cher and Julia would have more than enough power to tell the industry where to stick it.
> 
> No, I don't remember anything about Julia Roberts unshaved arm pits. She got in trouble over that ?
> I do recall that semi-recently Demi Moore had all her clothes stolen from her hotel room while she was at some big event. She reported the loss was in the neighborhood of $230,000 USD



Famous actresses are walking billboards for the fashion and makeup industry. Their agents set up the deals. The women themselves just wear the gowns etc. Then ordinary women with stars in their eyes try to copy the look.


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## RadishRose (Feb 5, 2018)

911 said:


> Women are better liars. Before anyone goes off on me, don't take what I just wrote to heart. What I have found over the years, is that when I would do a traffic stop, mostly for either speeding, inspection sticker or registration out of date, the women always had much better stories than the men.
> 
> Quick story. I remember stopping a woman for speeding, which I believe she was doing 50 in a 25 mph zone, or something relative to that. When I asked her if she knew why I had stopped her, of course, she answered, "No." After that she asked me if I was going to cite her and I asked her why was she speeding, thinking maybe there might be a good reason for it. Then, she asked me if I ever let anyone go before that was caught speeding and I told her, "Yes." So, then she asks me, "Well, what did they say?"
> 
> I just told her to slow down and have a nice day.



Whatta guy!


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## Sunny (Feb 5, 2018)

911, LOL!  (I wish I knew what she said also!)


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Hey, Traveler, it seems to me you are protesting a bit too much. You raise an absolutely absurd argument, which would describe a horrifying *relationship *between men and women, using every antiquated stereotype in the book. In your first post, you dangled it in front of us like so much bait.
> 
> Then, when you got the desired response from everyone, you became all huffy and defensive, insisting that your absurdity was right, although you did make a few small concessions ("I didn't say ALL women, etc.")  And you can't seem to let go of the issue.
> 
> You seem to be *outraged *that most people don't see the world through your glasses, warped though they may be.  Maybe it's time to let this issue go?




I respectfully suggest that you re-read my post # 1.  I was *NOT *talking about any *relationship *between man and women. I was talking about *first* *impressions*. (ie before any conversation has taken place)  You seem to actually believe that no woman ever dresses to attract the attentions of men. I don't know what it is like where you live, but everywhere I have lived, many, many women go to the clubs on a Saturday night, dressed extremely hot. 

At my age I don't go to the clubs any longer, but I do, on occasion, go out to dinner in the evening, and I walk passed several night clubs where I see the long lines of people waiting to enter. I can tell you, with absolute certainty that there are many young women dressed in very revealing clothing.

I have found this to be true in Miami, New Orleans, San Francisco, San Diego, Boston, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Manila, Bangkok, and all over Mexico.  I don't attend church socials, or spend much time in small rural communities, so things may be different there.

P.S. I am not the one who is *outraged*. I have been attacked, *personally*, by a number of people in this thread and *THEY *are the ones who seem outraged that I don't see the world through *their *eyes.


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## Sunny (Feb 5, 2018)

So, I guess I am a hillbilly who goes only to church socials, eh?  Boy, as the old joke goes, have you got the wrong number!

Just for the record, I live in Montgomery County, MD, just a few miles from Washington, DC.  Our demographic is very sophisticated and for the most part, highly educated. As I said, California is its own unique world, with some very strange values. I've always noticed that in many movies and TV shows that take place in California, when people greet each other, the first words out of their mouth are usually, "Hi! You look great!" This is true of both men and women, by the way. Just watch Curb Your Enthusiasm and Big Little Lies to see what I mean.

But that is not the norm for everybody else in the country. Here, people are usually much more interested in common interests, political values, etc. The women aren't presenting themselves like animals in heat with the men sniffing them.

I grew up in NJ.  I never particularly dressed to "attract the attentions of men," yet I never had any trouble attracting them. The men I was interested in (and especially, the one I was happily married to for 54 years) were interested in other things about me, rather than my clothes and makeup.

Let it go, Traveler. Every note you write on this subject just digs you in a little deeper. We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Sunny said:


> So, I guess I am a hillbilly who goes only to church socials, eh?  Boy, as the old joke goes, have you got the wrong number!
> 
> Just for the record, I live in Montgomery County, MD, just a few miles from Washington, DC.  Our demographic is very sophisticated and for the most part, highly educated. As I said, California is its own unique world, with some very strange values. I've always noticed that in many movies and TV shows that take place in California, when people greet each other, the first words out of their mouth are usually, "Hi! You look great!" This is true of both men and women, by the way. Just watch Curb Your Enthusiasm and Big Little Lies to see what I mean.
> 
> ...




Once again you have totally ignored much of what I said.  You bring up that I happen to live in California, as if there is something wrong with living in CA.  Yes, I *currently *live in CA, but you totally ignore all of the other places I have lived. And, once again, you attempt to put words in my mouth. I said that *I *don't attend church socials or spend much time in rural areas. I did not say a single word about where *you *live and I most certainly *never *said, or implied, that you are a hillbilly.  Where does *that *come from ?

You said. "Let it go, Traveler".  Why should I ? Because you don't like what I say ? Not bloody likely.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Photo of a woman doing her best to *NOT *look sexy.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

I am going to TRY to explain something about men in general terms.  Please note that I do NOT say every single man.  

Men are ****** creatures. From the earliest stages of our teens, we begin to think about sex. By our late teens we become obsessed with the female form. We dream about females and we have what are called "wet dreams", ie nocturnal emissions. In other words we ejaculate in our sleep. Be aware that I am NOT saying masturbation. What we experience in our dreams of females happens in our unconscious minds. 

That ****** force, at least in our teens, becomes an obsession. That force is with us every second of every day. We get spontaneous erections against our conscious will. At that age, the mere sight of an attractive girl can cause an erection. That ****** force is not unique to boys in western civilizations. It happens in every culture, in every country, across the globe. And it is totally normal.

By our late teens, and certainly by our early 20's, if we have not experienced ****** intercourse, we become almost terrified that we might remain virgins forever. During this stage of a young man's life, he is ready, willing and able to have sex at the drop of a hat. ANY HAT. ANY TIME.  24/7.  

Of course, sooner or later, "IT" will happen. And, when it finally does happen, it is the happiest day of our young inexperienced lives. 

The ****** obsession can last, at least for some men, for many decades. Try to think of this as a metaphor, The ****** force, in men, is like a campfire. What happens when a campfire is heavily fanned ? It grows ever more hot and the flames burn even higher. When a man, especially a young man, sees attractive women, dressed in skimpy or revealing clothing, it is exactly like fanning the campfire. 

Now, some women condemn men for being what we are. But that is like condemning a cat for jumping up onto high places. The cat can not help doing what comes naturally and neither can a man. 

The entire point of this thread is that men are naturally attracted to women and most especially to women who dress in a "sexy" manner.

One note here. Muslim countries are all too aware that men are, by nature, ****** creatures. To counter that ****** force, or at least tame it, Muslims often require the females to wear burqa's. I do NOT say they are right, or wrong, or that western women should do the same. I only report what Muslims do.


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

A stock photo of a model in a staged pose doesn't advance your argument one way or the other.
Neither does this image


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

Perhaps not, Warrigal. But, staged or not, you must admit that the women in post #99 is, in fact, dressed sexually provocatively.


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## Traveler (Feb 5, 2018)

This photo is not a model and is not posed. but it clearly demonstrates what I'm talking about. Namely that there ARE women out there who are dressing to attract attention.


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## Warrigal (Feb 5, 2018)

:lol: The woman is the red dress is posed to look like a "working girl" but probably isn't.
The woman in the torn jeans might be, though I think she has probably finished her shift.

This fellow is also dressing (undressing?) to attract attention, although I don't think the target audience is women.


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## Dragonlady (Feb 5, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I am going to TRY to explain something about men in general terms.  Please note that I do NOT say every single man.
> 
> Men are ****** creatures. From the earliest stages of our teens, we begin to think about sex. By our late teens we become obsessed with the female form. We dream about females and we have what are called "wet dreams", ie nocturnal emissions. In other words we ejaculate in our sleep. Be aware that I am NOT saying masturbation. What we experience in our dreams of females happens in our unconscious minds.
> 
> ...



I strongly suspect that most of us are fully aware of the male ****** drive. We do not need you lecturing down to us on the subject


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## Ruthanne (Feb 5, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Actually that advertisement is attempting to seduce readers into buying their overly expensive products. If seduction doesn't work then body shaming will do the trick. That heavily photoshopped image, of an impossibly perfect woman is dangled in front of young women who are already insecure about their looks, and hey presto, another customer for the beauty industry is created. This kind of manipulation is effective on immature girls, and once hooked, they continue to be customers for life even though they never achieve the perfection of the model.
> 
> As a teen I plastered my face with layers of makeup and felt naked without it. My hair was curled and lacquered because my naturally straight hair was not in vogue. Then I read The Female Eunuch and realised that I could go out in public without wearing the war paint to hide my natural looks. Ditto the painted nails and the elasticised underwear that was completely unnecessary for the young trim body that I had back then. I stopped sleeping with my hair in uncomfortable plastic curlers and decided that I would please myself about how I looked. Over the years I have saved thousands on beauty products and I have developed my own style of dressing. It relies more on bright colours than naked skin. I'm happy and so is Hubby. He likes the way I look, with or without cosmetic enhancements.
> 
> None of my female relatives attempt the kind of sexy dressing that you describe although when we go out we do like to "look nice".


Exactly, Warri, women are used by these industries to make money and are really victims.   They are subtley told they are not good enough or not pretty or not the right weight or not the right hair color or their eyelashes are not curly like they should be and all 
to make money and it cripples may girls and women.


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> Exactly, Warri, women are used by these industries to make money and are really victims.   They are subtley told they are not good enough or not pretty or not the right weight or not the right hair color or their eyelashes are not curly like they should be and all
> to make money and it cripples may girls and women.




Now ! Now, I understand why all of the bitter recriminations.  I treaded upon sacred feminist soil.  You ladies see yourselves as victims of an evil industry designed specifically to keep you financially enslaved.  You do NOT see yourselves as willing, perhaps even joyous, participants working hand-in-hand with an industry designed to make you more attractive, perhaps even beautiful. 

Well now, that is a horse of a different color, indeed. If what you say is true, then your argument is not with me but rather with the 10's of millions upon millions of women who buy the products to which you refer. Why ? Because those other women are not only keeping the beauty industry alive, but making it rich beyond the dreams of avarice. 

There are two major flaws in that argument. One, much of the beauty industry is owned and controlled by women such as Coco Chanel, Vera Wang, Diane Von Furstenberg, Ella Schiaparelli, and that other famous billionaire businesswoman May Kay. Who I might add has 3 million sales women world-wide.  The men in that industry are, predominantly gay men such as Versace. 

The other, and even fatal flaw in your argument is that throughout all of human history, going even further back than 3,000 B.C. Egypt, women have gone to any lengths to make themselves more beautiful. How do I know this for a fact. Because I saw, with my own eyes, ancient beauty make-up cases, complete with dried, desiccated eye liners, lipsticks, mirrors, tools for plucking hair and various powders, in the Cairo Museum Of Egyptian Antiquities. 

Such a long and storied history of women's search for beauty tells me that the root cause of this is genetic.  Ladies, it's in your DNA. 
That is NOT meant to be a put-down. Men also have been encoded with specific genetic traits. So, men too carry DNA baggage. Among the many genetic traits of men is to build the "nest", and two of the genetic traits of women is to decorate and populate the "nest".

It took me a very long time to understand, but Ruthanne gave me the final clue. So, now I have it. The whole thing is genetic. 
I can't thank you all enough. Mystery solved !  No more questions. :clap:


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## Ruthanne (Feb 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Now ! Now, I understand why all of the bitter recriminations.  I treaded upon sacred feminist soil.  You ladies see yourselves as victims of an evil industry designed specifically to keep you financially enslaved.  You do NOT see yourselves as willing, perhaps even joyous, participants working hand-in-hand with an industry designed to make you more attractive, perhaps even beautiful.
> 
> Well now, that is a horse of a different color, indeed. If what you say is true, then your argument is not with me but rather with the 10's of millions upon millions of women who buy the products to which you refer. Why ? Because those other women are not only keeping the beauty industry alive, but making it rich beyond the dreams of avarice.
> 
> ...


Women and men make victims of women in the industries.  There are many women who have not discovered it yet.  I for one am not a willing participant any longer and I know many women who too are not.  There are plenty of men who decorate themselves now a days, and what for?  We have always loved them as they are.  At least I have.  Women in modern times have been FAR MORE exploited than men and for men mostly.  I am glad that I don't have to please anyone now and am glad others know that, too.

As for genetics I say no to that; it is more brainwashing and social conditioning.:cheers1:


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm sorry to say this , Ruthanne, but the argument of "woman as victim" of the beauty industry just doesn't wash.  Today's modern woman is a liberated woman, and collectively they have TREMENDOUS power. If women don't want something, then the answer is simple. Stop buying it. Instant emancipation. 

I don't recall any case of a woman ever being forced to buy cosmetics at the point of a gun.  I mean, seriously. Both of us have seen women in big department stores getting made up by professionals. Those women looked like they were having one heck of a great time. I personally stood by as various GF's and wives were made up and they all were smiling ear to ear. Talk about happy women. Wow !


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## Ruthanne (Feb 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I'm sorry to say this , Ruthanne, but the argument of "woman as victim" of the beauty industry just doesn't wash.  Today's modern woman is a liberated woman, and collectively they have TREMENDOUS power. If women don't want something, then the answer is simple. Stop buying it. Instant emancipation.
> 
> I don't recall any case of a woman ever being forced to buy cosmetics at the point of a gun.  I mean, seriously. Both of us have seen women in big department stores getting made up by professionals. Those women looked like they were having one heck of a great time. I personally stood by as various GF's and wives were made up and they all were smiling ear to ear. Talk about happy women. Wow !


Social conditioning has been done since women are very young.  It's not as simple as you say and you don't know what it's like because you are not a woman and have never been subjected to a lifetime of telling you that you should look better than you do or that if you don't wear make up you are a plain Jane or ugly.  I don't expect you to understand unless someone gives you a big shot of instant empathy or understanding.  This will be my last post because I feel you don't really want to understand what it's like for a woman.


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## 911 (Feb 6, 2018)

OK, so what I write here will probably make some eyes roll, but whatever. Another difference between men and women is that men are 99% more likely to rape a woman than vice versa. So, this is just the way a cop's mind thinks when asked these types of questions. 

It has been well documented that on average, over 10% (I believe the last report that I read stated 11.8%) of the female student population in larger colleges and universities either have been or will be raped. Most go unreported because of embarrassment and guilt. 

To me, it's a tragic situation.  

Parents of young ladies that are going to college needs to hammer into the brain of their daughter that they need to be very careful when attending either sorority or fraternity parties. This is where most campus rapes takes place.


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## grahamg (Feb 6, 2018)

*Use of make up...........*



Ruthanne said:


> Originally Posted by *Warrigal*
> 
> Actually that advertisement is attempting to seduce readers into buying their overly expensive products. If seduction doesn't work then body shaming will do the trick. That heavily photoshopped image, of an impossibly perfect woman is dangled in front of young women who are already insecure about their looks, and hey presto, another customer for the beauty industry is created. This kind of manipulation is effective on immature girls, and once hooked, they continue to be customers for life even though they never achieve the perfection of the model.
> 
> ...




The "mystery" surrounding the reasons why women choose to wear make up, and spend so much money on their appearance was brought up early in this thread wasn't it (and who doesn't like a woman to look good?).

People have tried to explain the various reasons why women wear make up etc. to us dollards who have lived so long without figuring it out, and yet maybe some of us still can't quite get it unfortunately (self esteem, confidence and so on).

However, I do have one small piece of information to impart and that is whilst my then wife was seeing someone behind my back who she eventually left to live with and then marry (though they're not together now), she did start to use more make up, and apply more scent I seem to remember during the time she pretended nothing untoward was going on. "So maybe we can agree" that just sometimes women do wear make up etc., in order to attract a possible mate (?).


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## hearlady (Feb 6, 2018)

And I can remember times when I was dressed in sweats with a cheerio stuck to my rats nest of hair and my husband thought I was the sexiest thing alive. I wish I'd appreciated that more.


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> Social conditioning has been done since women are very young.  It's not as simple as you say and you don't know what it's like because you are not a woman and have never been subjected to a lifetime of telling you that you should look better than you do or that if you don't wear make up you are a plain Jane or ugly.  I don't expect you to understand unless someone gives you a big shot of instant empathy or understanding.  This will be my last post because I feel you don't really want to understand what it's like for a woman.




Sorry you feel that way, Ruthanne.  Just as you have the experience of, and loyalty for, women. My experience is that of a man, and my loyalty is for men.  I have great big news for you. Women are not the only ones who must carry a cross.  In any event, it is certainly true that men get little or no empathy, or understanding from women. I have long since lost tract of how many times, on this site, and in other places and times that I have heard women say,  "Men have all of the privileges. Men have it easy, Men are the oppressors" etc etc. 

Let me ask you something. When is the last time you ever heard any feminist have the least little bit of empathy or understanding of MEN ?
Feminists declared war on men many decades ago. The main recurring theme of feminism is "We are victims". Ad Nauseam 

I enjoy the company of women, BUT the minute one starts harping on how men are oppressing women, I either get up and leave, or just tune them out. I have heard it all before. Thousands of times. IMO nobody hands anything to anyone. It must be paid for in blood, sweat and tears. 

Many women own property, and some have access to large amounts of cash.  What is stopping them from putting it all on the line and starting up a new business of their own. Martha  Stewart did it. Oprah Winfrey did it and so did J.K. Rowling . Ms.. Rowling was a welfare mom, living in poverty. Today, because of her writings, she is a billionaire many times over. 

So, I say to women, who endlessly complain, find a need, and fill it. Build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door. 
When women blame all their troubles on men, it only serves to give them an excuse for failure. I think it was Malcom X who said, "The future belongs to those who prepare for it --- today".


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## Shalimar (Feb 6, 2018)

I am a psychologist, and approx seventy five percent of my clients are male. The majority of them are vets suffering from PTSD. If I lacked empathy, I would be working elsewhere in a much less stressful environment, earning a large pay check. I love my career, it is my vocation, but I see a lot of heartbreak, and the suicide rate among those suffering from PTSD and 

CPTSD, is appalling. One of things I have learned, after a decade in university, and over two decades in practice, is that male, or female, once  you hit rock bottom, the reactions are based far more on personality type, than gender. In the end, we are complex human beings, there are as many differences within the sexes as there are between them.


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## Sunny (Feb 6, 2018)

> I am going to TRY to explain something about men in general terms.  Please note that I do NOT say every single man.
> 
> Men are ****** creatures. From the earliest stages of our teens, we  begin to think about sex. By our late teens we become obsessed with the  female form. We dream about females and we have what are called "wet  dreams", ie nocturnal emissions. In other words we ejaculate in our  sleep. Be aware that I am NOT saying masturbation. What we experience in  our dreams of females happens in our unconscious minds.



Traveler, this discussion is getting beyond unbelievable. What planet do you think all the women on this bb have been living on, up to now?  

Thank you for informing us that men have a ****** drive. And how pathetic that you think that women deliberately try to tap into that drive in order to attract male attention!  What kind of woman would want that kind of attention, anyway? Well, hookers, bimbos, gold diggers, those with pathologically low self-esteem.  But all of those types together still represent a minority of all women. The pictures you are posting represent one or more of the above types, not women with even a shred of intelligence.

The woman in the red dress - well, do you normally see women walking around dressed like that?  The picture is clearly staged, probably with some commercial purpose.

The other picture, of the woman with her pants falling down, well, there are airheads who will wear anything. Both female AND male. This does not prove anything about your generalizations about women.

I think you have an enormous amount to learn about the female gender!


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## retiredtraveler (Feb 6, 2018)

hearlady said:


> And I can remember times when I was dressed in sweats with a cheerio stuck to my rats nest of hair and my husband thought I was the sexiest thing alive. I wish I'd appreciated that more.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 6, 2018)




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## IKE (Feb 6, 2018)

*Pass !*


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## AZ Jim (Feb 6, 2018)

I know the difference between men and women AND am thankful for it.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 6, 2018)




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## Dragonlady (Feb 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Now ! Now, I understand why all of the bitter recriminations.  I treaded upon sacred feminist soil.  You ladies see yourselves as victims of an evil industry designed specifically to keep you financially enslaved.  You do NOT see yourselves as willing, perhaps even joyous, participants working hand-in-hand with an industry designed to make you more attractive, perhaps even beautiful.
> 
> Well now, that is a horse of a different color, indeed. If what you say is true, then your argument is not with me but rather with the 10's of millions upon millions of women who buy the products to which you refer. Why ? Because those other women are not only keeping the beauty industry alive, but making it rich beyond the dreams of avarice.
> 
> ...



   You need to read your history with an unbiased eye.
For most of history women have been subjugated to men- and still are in many parts of the world. Acquiring a mate was essential for survival (since until recently in some areas of the world, there were no occupations for women - except prostitution and servitude). A women's standard of living was determined by her mate's income earning capacity and status in his culture. High status, wealthy males tended to choose the most attractive females (as a further status symbol). A woman's very survival could depend on what male she was married to. In those cultures and sub cultures that do not allow/encourage women to be self supporting, this is still true. In some occupations, female beauty and competition on that basis are still encouraged. It has nothing to do with genetics - it has to do with survival (in some form) in a male dominated world


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## C'est Moi (Feb 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> ...In the end, we are complex human beings, there are as many differences within the sexes as there are between them.



^^  Nutshell.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2018)

Last night I watched a British documentary filmed in a school where the attitudes of seven year olds to gender was examined. Already the children accepted that boys are stronger and that as men they would take certain occupations seen as harder. The behaviour of the teacher was also examined and it was found that he used pet names for the girls like 'Love' and 'Sweatpea' and he called the boys names like 'Mate' and 'Son'. Interestingly, he used the pet names for the girls twice as much. 

An experiment was started where the children were to be treated equally and their gender stereotypes were challenged. The children were asked to draw people with the following occupations - mechanic, magician, nurse and hairdresser/makeup artist and unsurprisingly all of them drew the first two as male and the last two as female. Then they were introduced to a female mechanic and magician and a male nurse and hairdresser. Each involved the children in some aspect of their work. The hairdresser/makeup artist worked in film and TV which really impressed the boys as he turned them into characters from science fiction and the girls were fascinated by under the bonnet workings of a car. Their attitudes to their potential as adults were shifted.

Then an experiment about strength was conducted. All of the children accepted that the boys are stronger, even though at that age, size for size, there is no difference. They were challenged by a cut down version of the side show game of how hard can you hit the peg with a hammer. The scale was from 0 to 10. The boys were very confident and predicted 9s and 10s for their performance and the girls gave themselves scores of 5 or 4.  The girls outperformed  their own expectations. One rang the bell indicating a 10 and she burst into tears with happiness. Several boys who stepped up with confidence, after three attempts, only scored a 3 and one scored zero because he kept missing the target with the hammer. He didn't weep but he did have a anger melt down and needed quite a bit of pacification time.

The teachers learned a lot about how they had been reinforcing stereotypical attitudes by their reactions to the children. The children, especially the girls, learned that ideas such as 'boys are stronger and smarter' are not necessarily true but this realisation caused a lot of unhappiness and the teachers wondered what had been achieved by it.

The upbringing of sons and daughters within families is also very culturally gendered. It is hardly surprising that women are more conscious of their appearance and also more insecure about it while men look in the mirror only when they want to shave. (Generalising, of course). As a teen, we girls were constantly looking at ourselves and each other to make sure our stocking seams were straight, our petticoats were not showing below the hem of our skirts and the straps of our underwear were safely tucked away out of sight. Lipstick was de rigueur and had to be refreshed frequently but it must never be seen on the teeth. 

Could some of the men please tell me what aspects of their teenage appearance were emphasised as being ultra important and always front of mind or were your minds, as Traveller has said so explicitly, always on the genitalia?


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

I agree that boys are judged less on their appearance than girls. No question about it. To argue differently would be an exercise in futility. Boys, however, have a different load to carry, but one no less burdensome. He must, above all else, be competent, and stoic. God help the boy who breaks done and cries in public, even once. He will, forevermore, be constantly humiliated, made fun of and called a sissy or worse, a girl. For a boy, being called a girl is the ultimate put down. 

As boys, our heroes, are competent and never yielding. In high-school, sports reign as the end all, be all, of the masculine ideal. To take one of many examples, football (no not soccer), is a test of his ability to be: rugged, tough and skilled. He must not just beat his opponent, he must dominate him.  Not just as a team vs. team but more importantly as individual vs. individual. He is required to out-man his opponent. In other words, he must be stronger, faster and tougher. Tougher is very, very important. He must ignore pain and blood and come back stronger than ever. 

The boy who can cut the mustard as a quarterback or receiver or running back, is a boy who will receive adulation, And even more importantly, will be admired by the girls, which, naturally, will be rewarded by dates with the girls.

Warrigal asked about teenage boys. The above is but one example of many.

This is by no means a recent phenomenon. In ancient Greece the boys would enter the playing field, naked as the day they were born and compete boy against boy. In contests of boxing and wrestling, pain be damned, blood be damned. He must dominate his opponent. In todays phrase, he must --- "man-up".

Truly, his burden, is much, much more difficult than merely spending time on make-up and hair care.  To be a champion, or even merely competent, requires years and years of unrelenting toil, sweat, pain and blood.

So, ladies, don't think, for one moment, that females are the only ones who must live up to societies expectations.


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## Shalimar (Feb 6, 2018)

Interesting. My fiancé, SifuPhil, is a martial arts master, you can’t get much more stereotypically macho than that. Yet, he is also a scholar, and very much in tune with his emotions. He was once a celibate Taoist monk, which requires focus and discipline, but he is very comfortable with women.


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## JoeD (Feb 6, 2018)

This might only apply to young people but I read recently that around 80% of women like thick platform shoes but only 10-20% of men. So who are the women wearing them for?


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## TonyK (Feb 6, 2018)

"First I Look At The Purse"


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

IKE, it is not important whether you or I, both old men, would select the blonde with the ultra low cut jeans. The entire point is that she is dressing to attract attention. And that is a major point of this thread. Tens of millions upon millions of women, especially young women, dress provocatively in order to get attention. There can be no denying that. Very few women would wear those jeans BUT millions of other women, young and older, DO expose a great amount of cleavage. No denying that either.


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## Warrigal (Feb 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> As boys, our heroes, are competent and never yielding. In high-school, sports reign as the end all, be all, of the masculine ideal. To take one of many examples, football (no not soccer), is a test of his ability to be: rugged, tough and skilled. He must not just beat his opponent, he must dominate him.  Not just as a team vs. team but more importantly as individual vs. individual. He is required to out-man his opponent. In other words, he must be stronger, faster and tougher. Tougher is very, very important. He must ignore pain and blood and come back stronger than ever.
> 
> The boy who can cut the mustard as a quarterback or receiver or running back, is a boy who will receive adulation, And even more importantly, will be admired by the girls, which, naturally, will be rewarded by dates with the girls.



Some girls, Traveler. Don't be too ready to absorb the values of teen movies about college football. While the boys may think these qualities are admirable there are plenty of girls who find them a turn off. Jocks are not universally admired by females. For one thing they are far too self absorbed and too focused on their sport, training, physical strength to be interesting people to talk to. I would point to the counter idea espoused in the movie Revenge of the Nerds. Also something of a male fantasy but closer to the mark IMO.

As for domination - for me personally this is a red light. I remember being absolutely repulsed by a man who worked with my husband. He had a great dane and I reckon the only reason was that he wanted to dominate it. It was ugly to watch and rather than being impressed by his masterful masculinity, I felt very sorry for his wife. Especially after he dared to put his hand on my knee under the dinner table. I'm sure he imagined himself to be an alpha male but to me he was a total loser. The look I gave him was intended to convey that evaluation of his value as a human being.


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

Warrigal, I was speaking from personal experience NOT some silly movie. But you are right about one thing. Some girls are turned off by athletes. However, I should point out that as long as there are ANY pretty girls who admire young alfa males, the young males will continue to engage in what comes naturally. This is exactly the same thing as young girls being attracted to young guys who have cars and can take those girls to new and exciting places. Many young girls, perhaps even most young girls, will always be attracted the bold and confident male. Now that I think about it, many women are the same way. You'll recall the old saying, "Faint heart never won fair maiden".

P.S. The jerk who was your husbands friend may have thought of himself as an alfa male but in the end he was just an *#!ing idiot.


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## NancyNGA (Feb 6, 2018)

Traveler, maybe you have just been unfortunate in associating with a lot of very shallow people.  The cards would be stacked against you, in expecting to find a good relationship, if you are attracted to people like that.


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

NancyNGA said:


> Traveler, maybe you have just been unfortunate in associating with a lot of very shallow people.  The cards would be stacked against you, in expecting to find a good relationship, if you are attracted to people like that.



The thread has become rather more wide ranging than I had intended. Which post, which people do you refer ?


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## KingsX (Feb 6, 2018)

.

Thankfully,  one of the main advantages of being a senior...
I am able to enjoy my independence... and just being me...
and couldn't care less about attracting the opposite sex.


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## Traveler (Feb 6, 2018)

KingsX said:


> .
> 
> Thankfully,  one of the main advantages of being a senior...
> I am able to enjoy my independence... and just being me...
> and couldn't care less about attracting the opposite sex.



I feel the same way. I just enjoy observing people and asking myself why they do the things they do.


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

I recall an experiment done by the Stanford University Department of psychology.  The experiment was designed to see how women would rate men based exclusively on his potential as a possible mate. (ie would she date him ?) The experiment worked like this: color photographs were taken of 10 men, of average to slightly above average looks. All men were well groomed and neatly dressed but not in suits and tie.  At the bottom of the photos were a made-up name and his occupation.  

There were two piles of identical photos. The only difference was that in pile # 1, the men had occupations listed as: artist or musician, restaurant manager, new car sales man, photographer etc etc. The 2nd pile had the exact same photos but this time the occupations were changed to: dentist, computer designer, recent law school graduate, son of major dept store owner, certified public accountant etc etc.

Four young female graduate students were chosen to be the "survey takers". On the test days, two women went down one side of a street in downtown with photos of pile #1. At the exact same time, the other two young women went down the other side of the street with pile #2.
The young grad students walked down the sidewalks and stopped other youngish women and asked then to rate the men in the photos as potential mates. 

The results of the test demonstrated that, overwhelmingly, the women who saw only pile #2 rated the men as much higher than the women who saw only pile #1. Keep in mind, that it was on the same day, on the same downtown street, and presumably the same occupational/educational levels of the women.  

Why did the women rate the men from stack number 2 higher ? Because the young women saw that the men in  pile # 2 had a greater lifetime earning potential.


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## hearlady (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Warrigal, I was speaking from personal experience NOT some silly movie. But you are right about one thing. Some girls are turned off by athletes. However, I should point out that as long as there are ANY pretty girls who admire young alfa males, the young males will continue to engage in what comes naturally. This is exactly the same thing as young girls being attracted to young guys who have cars and can take those girls to new and exciting places. Many young girls, perhaps even most young girls, will always be attracted the bold and confident male. Now that I think about it, many women are the same way. You'll recall the old saying, "Faint heart never won fair maiden".
> 
> P.S. The jerk who was your husbands friend may have thought of himself as an alfa male but in the end he was just an *#!ing idiot.


It's 2018. I'm pretty sure the girls have their own cars. There are a lot of facts in the things you say Traveler but they are mixed in with the point of view from someone who has only traveled in certain circles and is very out of touch with the real world. You have pointed that out yourself.
You should totally go to a church social. You might learn a lot. Maybe you should travel to some rural towns and places and be exposed to"real folk".


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

hearlady said:


> It's 2018. I'm pretty sure the girls have their own cars. There are a lot of facts in the things you say Traveler but they are mixed in with the point of view from someone who has only traveled in certain circles and is very out of touch with the real world. You have pointed that out yourself.
> You should totally go to a church social. You might learn a lot. Maybe you should travel to some rural towns and places and be exposed to"real folk".




Only traveled in certain circles ? And what "certain circles" do you imagine that I have traveled in ?


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I recall an experiment done by the Stanford University Department of psychology.  The experiment was designed to see how women would rate men based exclusively on his potential as a possible mate. (ie would she date him ?) The experiment worked like this: color photographs were taken of 10 men, of average to slightly above average looks. All men were well groomed and neatly dressed but not in suits and tie.  At the bottom of the photos were a made-up name and his occupation.
> 
> There were two piles of identical photos. The only difference was that in pile # 1, the men had occupations listed as: artist or musician, restaurant manager, new car sales man, photographer etc etc. The 2nd pile had the exact same photos but this time the occupations were changed to: dentist, computer designer, recent law school graduate, son of major dept store owner, certified public accountant etc etc.
> 
> ...



This from the same university that brought us the infamous Prison Experiment and the artificial intelligence "gaydar". 

What was the size of the sampling group? Were there any control groups? Was there experimental bias because all of the survey-takers were female?


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

There have been one heck of a lot of denials that the average woman spends a great deal of time and money on makeup, hair care, manicures and pedicures. Would you be shocked to know that the AVERAGE woman spends $300,000 in her lifetime on just makeup alone ?

Don't believe me ? Think I'm not living in the "real " world ?

Ok, check this out  http://allure.com/story/average-woman-spends-on-makeup

If you think I don't know what I'm talking about then I have DOZENS of other sites that I can post.
In addition to the makeup dollars spent, women in the U.S. spend an additional 12 billion dollars EVERY year on clothes and shoes.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Would you be shocked to know that the AVERAGE woman spends $300,000 in her lifetime on just makeup alone ?



So, assuming that a girl begins buying her own makeup at age 12 ... and the average lifespan of a woman born in the United States is currently 81 years ...

That means an average monthly expenditure of $362. 

I highly doubt that your AVERAGE woman (not that there IS such a creature) is spending _that_ much on a monthly basis. 

The "study" you cited is from an _online skin supplies store_. Think they might be a _bit_ biased in their research?


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Bakerman
> You betcha.  And so would a lot of other guys.  It does not matter how well dressed, groomed and super polite he is, he is going to get shot down much, much more than any woman could imagine. Of course, at our age, it is a moot point.



The men I've met in person, like for a dinner-date in my later years seem to almost "assume" they are going to get shot down.  If you read some dating ads there seems to be two kinds.  One is overly confident and cocky, God's gift I'm gonna miss out on if I don't write.  The other kind is I can take or leave a woman (but yet he is out there lonely wanting companionship).  It seems that women are more willing to take another chance then men.  And I have thought for years now, that men "may" hurt more deeply.  I'm ready to be battered with tomatos here but women's lib has done a lot of harm, or maybe just gone too far.

I still believe men were meant to be in leadership.  So "lock and load" your tomato shooters, I can take it


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

I think leadership should depend on aptitude, not gender. With some exceptions, most abilities are not gender based. When I was studying for my doctorate, I regularly heard the “what’s a pretty girl like you studying in a man’s field for? Women are not strong enough to be psychologists, too emotional, etc.”  Nauseatingly condescending.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2018)

I forgot to also quote Traveller, I meant this for his comment as well 




SifuPhil said:


> So, assuming that a girl begins buying her own makeup at age 12 ... and the average lifespan of a woman born in the United States is currently 81 years ...
> 
> That means an average monthly expenditure of $362.
> 
> ...



The AVERAGE aside, my gal-friends and I grew up "mostly" thinking about one thing, how to look our best.  I'm not disagreeing with numbers etc. I'm just saying, for myself, I finally stopped primping and even bothering with makeup because it makes me look worse!  Whoever came up with the "cover up makeup" should not bother with expensive ingredients, you can buy flour and water that will give the same effect.  I like to still wear earings/a couple of rings/necklaces, and care about being clean and neat.

I was married to a man that dyed his hair, had an eyelift and pretty sure there was some makeup involved.  When he wanted to wear my clothes, that was the beginning of the end.  Really good salesman though:indecisiveness: Don't ask, lol!


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2018)

If the world lasts that long, there won't be any difference between men and women.


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## Sunny (Feb 7, 2018)

> That means an average monthly expenditure of $362.



Sifu Phil, good point.  That's got to be the silliest estimate of anything I've ever seen.  Maybe a woman with Melania Trump's level of income, for instance, but that's supposed to be the average for all American women?  Please!

And about women being attracted to macho, jock types, as a man they want to attract, I doubt very much that that's true for grown, mature women. Maybe for the 12-year-old crowd...


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2018)

Just goes to show how these "so-called" polls must work.  On any topic, you get/take numbers from certain groups of people and call it average.  I don't have a clue what "normal" is, or average.


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I think leadership should depend on aptitude, not gender. With some exceptions, most abilities are not gender based. When I was studying for my doctorate, I regularly heard the “what’s a pretty girl like you studying in a man’s field for? Women are not strong enough to be psychologists, too emotional, etc.”  Nauseatingly condescending.



What idiots said that to you ? Had they never heard of Anna Freud, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross or Karen Horney ? I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. Disgusting !


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> So, assuming that a girl begins buying her own makeup at age 12 ... and the average lifespan of a woman born in the United States is currently 81 years ...
> 
> That means an average monthly expenditure of $362.
> 
> ...




I don't know what to tell you. There are dozens of web sites that quote various numbers for how much a woman spends in her lifetime on cosmetics. The number that Allure Magazine quotes, seemed quite high to me also. I'm not in that industry so I can only go by what they say. I just picked one at random from the google list.


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> What idiots said that to you ? Had they never heard of Anna Freud, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross or Karen Horney ? I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. Disgusting !


Thank you. It was my professors.


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## Dragonlady (Feb 7, 2018)

Much of that is propaganda by the cosmetics industry designed to suck women into buying more and the more expensive of their products


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## Sunny (Feb 7, 2018)

I must admit, I do buy a lipstick now and then.... So that comes to about ten bucks a month, tops.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I think leadership should depend on aptitude, not gender. With some exceptions, most abilities are not gender based. When I was studying for my doctorate, I regularly heard the “what’s a pretty girl like you studying in a man’s field for? Women are not strong enough to be psychologists, too emotional, etc.”  Nauseatingly condescending.


But can you give us the reason why your professors acted that way toward you?  In other words where were they coming from?


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> But can you give us the reason why your professors acted that way toward you?  In other words where were they coming from?


I suspect they had difficulty equating a petite, pretty woman with a competent psychologist. They believed I lacked the requisite mental toughness. At least one of them believed that women did not belong in the medical field except in nursing. I believe excellence is the best defence against such antediluvian attitudes.


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## hearlady (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I suspect they had difficulty equating a petite, pretty woman with a competent psychologist. They believed I lacked the requisite mental toughness. At least one of them believed that women did not belong in the medical field except in nursing. I believe excellence is the best defence against such antediluvian attitudes.


Legally Blonde comes to mind. She showed them!


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## Warrigal (Feb 7, 2018)

Denise1952 said:


> If the world lasts that long, there won't be any difference between men and women.



A truer statement than you think. Scientists have noted the gradual shrinking of the Y chromosome.


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Legally Blonde comes to mind. She showed them!


Oh, yeah!


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## Denise1952 (Feb 7, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> A truer statement than you think. Scientists have noted the gradual shrinking of the Y chromosome.



Maybe it was inevitable (or is) no matter what man/woman tries to manipulate.


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## Warrigal (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> What idiots said that to you ? Had they never heard of Anna Freud, Elizabeth Kubler-Ross or Karen Horney ? I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. Disgusting !


I was told something similar by my headmistress when I was choosing subjects for matriculation. My friends and I were told we could not choose physics because "girls cannot do physics". This was 1957, the year that the first Sputnik satellite was launched. All of us went on to study science, including physics without the necessary background that we should have had.


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I was told something similar by my headmistress when I was choosing subjects for matriculation. My friends and I were told we could not choose physics because "girls cannot do physics". This was 1957, the year that the first Sputnik satellite was launched. All of us went on to study science, including physics without the necessary background that we should have had.




As odd as it may sound , I can relate to that. Since I was a little kid I have always been obsessed with food and cooking. When I started 7th grade I wanted to sign up for a class in "Home Economics" because I heard that cooking was taught. I was told that boys belonged in "Metal Shop". I took that damn metal class but I hated every minute of it.


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Much of that is propaganda by the cosmetics industry designed to suck women into buying more and the more expensive of their products




Excellent point. I had not considered that.


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## Warrigal (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> As odd as it may sound , I can relate to that. Since I was a little kid I have always been obsessed with food and cooking. When I started 7th grade I wanted to sign up for a class in "Home Economics" because I heard that cooking was taught. I was told that boys belonged in "Metal Shop". I took that damn metal class but I hated every minute of it.



Things have certainly changed. I taught mostly in girls' high schools and over time we introduced electronics, computer aided technical drawing and eventually woodwork and robotics with fully equipped workrooms. Before all of this took place we hired a male home economics teacher and he was as queer as a three pound note. He was however a brilliant teacher and produced amazing results, even to the extent of having the girls prepare three course dinners for parents and staff, complete with silver service.

My daughter went to a co-ed school and elected metalwork in years 9 and 10. The teacher didn't want any girls in the class but treated everybody equally by calling everyone "son". Sounds inclusive doesn't it but it was just one of his ways of making the girls feel unwanted. One of the boys, a large South Sea Islander, kept harassing my daughter and would even chase her around the workshop. The teacher studiously ignored what he could clearly see happening. He wasn't about to rescue her and she gritted her teeth and refused to appeal for help. Also some of her projects mysteriously disappeared just as they were almost ready for assessment.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I suspect they had difficulty equating a petite, pretty woman with a competent psychologist. They believed I lacked the requisite mental toughness. At least one of them believed that women did not belong in the medical field except in nursing. I believe excellence is the best defence against such antediluvian attitudes.


It was part of the early times then, no?  Women were thought to be only for nursing and secretarial in those times.  I don't think it was anything personal, though, and also think it's partly their upbringing and how they were taught to think of women's roles in those times.  Men did dominate the field of psychology, yes.  They perhaps also somehow felt threatened?  Hum?


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> It was part of the early times then, no?  Women were thought to be only for nursing and secretarial in those times.  I don't think it was anything personal, though, and also think it's partly their upbringing and how they were taught to think of women's roles in those times.  Men did dominate the field of psychology, yes.  They perhaps also somehow felt threatened?  Hum?


It was a different time, but the scathing comments were personal, I prefer not to air them here. Did they feel threatened, I suspect so. Never once did I let on how their remarks affected me. They learned I would never quit, never show fear, or cry.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> It was a different time, but the scathing comments were personal, I prefer not to air them here. Did they feel threatened, I suspect so. Never once did I let on how their remarks affected me. They learned I would never quit, never show fear, or cry.


I'm happy you never quit.  Sorry to hear their comments were so horrid and I know how they can be that way as it was done to me, too. I was called every name in the book.  In a different setting though.  I am a scholar in the field of psy. but not a licensed therapist.  I empathize.  

Men can be be feeling very threatened and act totally asinine!!


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## Shalimar (Feb 7, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> I'm happy you never quit.  Sorry to hear their comments were so horrid and I know how they can be that way as it was done to me, too. I was called every name in the book.  In a different setting though.  I am a scholar in the field of psy. but not a licensed therapist.  I empathize.
> 
> Men can be be feeling very threatened and act totally asinine!!


Congrats on your achievement re psych.
I am sorry you went through that abuse. Sometimes, understanding psychology can help us put other people’s behaviour in perspective, instead of automatically buying into their reality.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Congrats on your achievement re psych.
> I am sorry you went through that abuse. Sometimes, understanding psychology can help us put other people’s behaviour in perspective, instead of automatically buying into their reality.


Thank you.  Yes, it can put it in perspective but privately make a person feel like crying...:love_heart:


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## Traveler (Feb 7, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> It was a different time, but the scathing comments were personal, I prefer not to air them here. Did they feel threatened, I suspect so. Never once did I let on how their remarks affected me. They learned I would never quit, never show fear, or cry.



Yes, different times. When I was in 7th and 8th grade there were 3 male teachers who physically assaulted me, regularly. It was one of the reasons I left home at age 15 and, except for about 3 months never went to high school. Funny thing is the more the teachers hurt me , the more I resisted their demands. I remember my math teacher requiring us to show our work on all math tests. But I could do it in my head and I refused to spend time on writing out my work. Even though my answers were correct, he always gave me an "F' for failing to show my work. I never said it out loud but I thought, "You can't break me you, bastard".  Even then I was a stubborn cuss, the more the teachers tried to force me to do something the more I dug I in my heels.


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## Ruthanne (Feb 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Yes, different times. When I was in 7th and 8th grade there were 3 male teachers who physically assaulted me, regularly. It was one of the reasons I left home at age 15 and, except for about 3 months never went to high school. Funny thing is the more the teachers hurt me , the more I resisted their demands. I remember my math teacher requiring us to show our work on all math tests. But I could do it in my head and I refused to spend time on writing out my work. Even though my answers were correct, he always gave me an "F' for failing to show my work. I never said it out loud but I thought, "You can't break me you, bastard".  Even then I was a stubborn cuss, the more the teachers tried to force me to do something the more I dug I in my heels.


OMG. You give me much to ponder.  So sorry that  bastard went at you like like that!!


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## Warrigal (Feb 7, 2018)

I can vouch for that attitude. 

Some of the worst offenders were the woodwork teachers. 
That was back in the days when corporal punishment was legal although strictly regulated.
The worst offenders paid scant regard for the regulations.

When I was in Grade 6, the teacher in the room next door to ours would occasionally line up everyone in the class and deliver them all one cut of the cane "to wake them up". Fortunately my teacher used the cane very sparingly. 

In my first year of teaching the deputy principal would patrol the corridors looking in on lessons looking for some excuse to pull out some unfortunate boy to cane. This was actually a tactic he used to dominate young teachers. He was a total bastard who one boasted about caning a boy who was fitting on the floor. He claimed the boy was faking it.

One of the rare advantages of being female was that we could not be subjected to corporal punishment once we turned 12.


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## grahamg (Feb 8, 2018)

*Lucky as grammar school*

I was very lucky at my secondary school (an all boys "grammar school"), where we had excellent teachers who were nearly all men, and the one exception was the young woman who taught physical education and gained great admiration by us boys.

My story about being singled out though concerns an experience through my work, in a very large company when I came to be at loggerheads with local management. I'd joined the union six months previously, having been reluctant to do so earlier, and was very glad when I ran into difficulties. Anyway, one of the things the union officials told me was that my "work mates" would probably back off from me for fear of affecting their own chances at the company, and this did happen to some extent.

I just throw it in as a comment, because I'm suggesting "herd instinct" maybe does come into play in all kinds of situations, and the psychologists will know more about this I'd guess. Aren't there examples at football matches where violence breaks out and normally law abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of such behaviour join in picking on an opposition sports fan.

It was hard to cope with my workmates shunning me for a time, but the union did an excellent job for me, and eventually things moved on and some of my mates started treating me okay again. I have had other examples in my life where I seem to have attracted condemnation by "others" both through work and outside work too (maybe I'm prone to it?). I might have blamed myself at one time, but I've lived long enough now to know many others who have experienced similar situations, and one of my sisters went through it at her work.


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## Traveler (Feb 8, 2018)

Ruthanne said:


> OMG. You give me much to ponder.  So sorry that  bastard went at you like like that!!



Those were some very bad times. I got beaten by the teachers, by school yard bullies and at home by my step father. At age 15 I was not yet man enough to protect myself, But things started getting better when I ran away from home and lived on the streets.   Nietzsche was right when he wrote,   "That which does does not kill me, makes me stronger".


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## Sunny (Feb 8, 2018)

Fortunately for me, I grew up in New Jersey. In that state, corporal punishment by teachers has always been forbidden, at least back as far as I know. Incredible that in "civilized" parts of the world, teachers were permitted to physically punish students.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't know what to tell you. There are dozens of web sites that quote various numbers for how much a woman spends in her lifetime on cosmetics. The number that Allure Magazine quotes, seemed quite high to me also. I'm not in that industry so I can only go by what they say. I just picked one at random from the google list.



Understood. 

I DO know from first-hand experience (worked as a flavor-and-color chemist for the old General Foods) that many of those magic lotions and unguents are HIGHLY overpriced for what they contain. You're paying for the packaging and for the dream, not for what's inside the box. 

"Sell the sizzle, not the steak".


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## SifuPhil (Feb 8, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> A truer statement than you think. Scientists have noted the gradual shrinking of the Y chromosome.



Ah, but they're giving us around 5 million years to do something about it. 

If we haven't eliminated the human race by then through other efforts, we'll probably have Y-Drinks to replace the chromosomes.


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## Warrigal (Feb 8, 2018)

True on both counts, Phil.


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## drifter (Feb 10, 2018)

Don't know what the problem is. All women are beautiful creatures, each in her own way. We are attracted to them, many attracted to us. Always asks, May I have this dance? If she said yes, she was the most beautiful gal in the room.


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## Gary O' (Feb 10, 2018)

drifter said:


> Don't know what the problem is. All women are beautiful creatures, each in her own way. We are attracted to them, many attracted to us. Always asks, May I have this dance? If she said yes, she was the most beautiful gal in the room.



we must drink together, new friend
first one is on me
after that
whoever is first on the dance floor with a beautiful creature, wins


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