# Political posturing over the CIA investigation is nothing new!



## Ralphy1 (Dec 12, 2014)

Does anybody remember the Church Commission of the seventies and what they put the then director of the CIA, Bill Colby, through?  The history of CIA "sins" from that period is eerily similar to those of today:  torture, assassinations, secret prisons in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc.  We have to accept who we are and stop saying this is not who we are...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

I agree... Americans are a violent, vicious bunch.    I didn't used to think so, but lately, I've seen a "blood lust" expressed that I've never noticed before.  Americans like to see people punished and abused.  At least that how it appears.  It seems we just like it and take a smug satisfaction in the feeling that someone is getting what WE think they deserve.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 12, 2014)

I think that it is more an attitude of protect us at any cost rather than a blood lust...


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## Ken N Tx (Dec 12, 2014)




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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> I think that it is more an attitude of protect us at any cost rather than a blood lust...




After much reading of the history and machinations of these various conflicts, I would suggest that it goes further than 'protect us' as the attitude that QS has indicated seems more to have caused the problems that abound in the world today.


Ken, you need to ask yourself why these terrorists have become so angry that they are moved to do the things that they do.  Aside from the issues of religion being an oft times motivator of evil (Spanish Inquistition, Crusades, etc.)  what has America done in the Middle East that may have caused the hatred.   America seems to think it can keep feeding the attack dog and then is shocked when it slips the chains that 'bind' it and turns on it's 'master'.

And maybe too Ken, the average American who has been brought up on a diet of 'exceptionalism' is feeling a certain level of embarrassment that their government has orchestrated an environment that isn't safe for them or others.  Maybe that's where the 'outrage' you speak of is coming from.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 12, 2014)

Yes, yes, beheadings and water boarding are the evils that nations have employed over time tp protect and promote there interests.  Nothing new here, folks.  In fact, the army was water boarding insurgents in the Philippines at the beginning of the 20th century...


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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

I think that people are beginning to wake up to the hypocrisy of telling the world that one is exceptional, always just, always fair, always honest, when in fact, the world knows behaviours that are anything but.  In my experience there has always been a fair amount of anger towards the Japanese in the second WW because of their abuses of POW's and so on, and yet, it would seem that the same kind of attitude and behaviour is somewhat acceptable in the American military both back then and today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

The following link:  http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014...cific-purpose-producing-false-propaganda.html    is an interesting piece on the encouragement of Rumsfeld and Cheney to 'push harder' when the CIA wasn't giving them the desired connections between Al Quaeda and Iraq.  It also talks at length about the probability of gaining false confessions but that those were used nonetheless to further the agenda of Rumsfeld and Cheney, et al.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

It's not just the torture and waterboarding...   It's the fact that we are the ONLY so called "Civilized" nation that still has the death penalty..  AND so many Americans are just fine with that... and wish we would execute MORE.  Texas, who just loves to kill people is praised and applauded.  Also, look at the people that are just okie dokie with police brutality... WAY WAY beyond the scope of the so called offense..  THEY LOVE IT...  they defend it.. and sorry... they seem to get a little leg tingle from it.  If that's not blood lust.. What is?     Follow all that with the ridiculous "Stand Your Ground" laws..  which are nothing more than a legal way to kill someone you don't particularly like or want around you..  AND people stood behind a moron like George Zimmerman..  No.. we are a vicious bunch..


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 12, 2014)

You should see my arsenal and torture chamber...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> You should see my arsenal and torture chamber...



I'll bet... like handcuffs too?   and whips...  ??

So... I'll even expand my premise for the mean spiritedness and viciousness of Americans.   How many are against helping anyone.. particularly other Americans?  How many resent food stamps, or Welfare... or union benefits?   Heck... how many, even folks on this forum and against not just poor people, but middle class people having healthcare in anyway subsidized?    How many would rather see people starve than get any assistance, because of a resentment that perhaps someone is getting something they are not.   IS that not in a way blood lust?   or just meanness?    So much of this makes me ashamed to be in the same country.   But heck.. I'm not leaving.. let them...


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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

The difference between our perspectives is small but significant I guess QS.  I see a 'global village' and you see America....and the rest of the world.  When I point out the failings of America (sometimes easier to see as an outsider because I'm not 'blinded' by the rhetoric of patriotism), it's not in a vacuum as I'm all too aware of the 'sins' of the other countries, including my own,  having put in a lot of time looking at all of this.

It may be irritating to you that I do note those bad acts, but while you may be somewhat aware of them, many absolutely aren't.  And if you aren't going to talk about them openly, then it becomes necessary for others to educate.  When I say educate, I also make a distinction between just offering opinions and real information.   The only way anything ever changes is if these things are dragged out into the light of day and examined closely.  This whole issue of Americans torturing people is one of those instances. 

This has been going on for decades  according to that one comment by Ralph and for decades, the average American has laboured under an illusion of exceptionalism and apparently an inability to understand why America has gotten such a bad reputation that culminated in 9/11.  Why I even remember when I was a teen, that it was commonly thought for safety's sake, that Americans would do well to identify as Canadians if they were travelling via the trusty thumb, overseas.  So it would seem that the animosity has a longer history than just since 2001.   Maybe now that one branch of your government has brought the whole torture issue out into the light of day, people will begin to understand why the animosity.

And certainly, there are wonderful attributes that have always encouraged foreigners to try to come to the US, but maybe that's more a case of choosing the lesser of two evils inasmuch as many of those other countries are that much worse when it comes to opportunities and police/military brutality or even environmental issues that make starvation a possibility.  

Most countries are made up of good and bad.  What we all need to do is build up the good and strip away those things that don't bring benefit and including the well being of people in other countries. When we start taking care of the next guys situation in a positive way, they are encouraged to 'pay it forward'.  But if all any one country/group does is strip away what they can from others, those people will also be encouraged to 'pay it forward' and terror can be the result.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

Well and good Debby...  however, don't look for an apology for my looking at things through my "American lens"..  I admit it... and I'm proud of it.  I am more than capable of seeing the faults of my country and my fellow Americans.. but like with any family...  especially a hugely dysfunctional family as we are.. we can say those things, but are not particularly enthused with outsiders saying it..  Especially when it feels like bashing or insults.


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## Ina (Dec 12, 2014)

If you are looking for hell, you will definately find it.


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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Well and good Debby...  however, don't look for an apology for my looking at things through my "American lens"..  I admit it... and I'm proud of it.  I am more than capable of seeing the faults of my country and my fellow Americans.. but like with any family...  especially a hugely dysfunctional family as we are.. we can say those things, but are not particularly enthused with outsiders saying it..  Especially when it feels like bashing or insults.




Never said I was looking for an apology, but I've been thinking of this a little through the day and it seems to me that if the USA is going to go into countries all over the world and cause mayhem, you might as well get used to non-Americans speaking out against it.  It's not like the abuses are occurring in a vacuum you know.  People are being harmed and killed by the thousands because of your governments policies and agendas.  And let me remind you, I'm only talking about what is on the record (and I include links every time) and I don't think I've every stooped to the level of insults for the sake of insults.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

Well Debs..... The next time I go into another country and commit mahem....  I'll listen to you..  lol!!


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## BobF (Dec 12, 2014)

But the fact that the US is the largest contributor to the UN and it's missions of mercy mean nothing at all to far too many.   That the US has also been one of the largest contributors to the UN's policing efforts means nothing either.   Some of those bad folks that cut off folks heads are among those the UN really would like quelled so the US and some of the European folks are attempting to stop them at this moments.   Should we not include their countries names in this tirade against the US?    I suppose we could end all this head cutting off stuff if we all just ended our personal religions and change to which ever not true Muslim religion these throat cutters follow.

This entire thread so far is totally out of line with reality and honesty about the way our country is run.    Unfortunate that some folks think a few out of the 300 million folks in the US speak for all.    It just is not so at all.   What I am reading here so far is not of our Constitutional ways or our Constitutional government or the way most of our people do live.   We do have some folks out of order and it is not our government of today or of the coming years.   Making judgements comes from our courts and not from any bar room discussion as some seem to think.   The current comments come from one group and not even looked at by other groups in the US.   Therefor we have a document possibly filled with errors and finger pointing and not a fair hearing as we are supposed to get if on trial.   Time will tell us if what has been said is true or not.   As I see it, many of the accusations were of events many years past and no longer part of the operations involved in stopping the Muslim attempts to attack the US.

Time for some to back off the hatred showing and either join the political groups to help the US find the correct ways or settle in and try to make the best of what you have to work with.   Lies, distortions, hatred, are not good tools for leading the way.


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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Well Debs..... The next time I go into another country and commit mahem....  I'll listen to you..  lol!!




Joking about the deaths of millions as a result of American agendas?   Really?


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## QuickSilver (Dec 12, 2014)

Debby said:


> Joking about the deaths of millions as a result of American agendas?   Really?



Oh good grief....


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## Debby (Dec 12, 2014)

BobF said:


> But the fact that the US is the largest contributor to the UN and it's missions of mercy mean nothing at all to far too many. ......... Lies, distortions, hatred, are not good tools for leading the way.






No one is disputing the good actions of any country including the US.  The problem is that the other side of the 'American involvement coin' means that millions have died as a direct result of American intervention in countries around the world.  Those lives mean something.   Afghani lives, Iraqi's, Libyans, Cambodian, Vietnamese......

When you point to ISIS, you like so many, ignore the support and funding and training that they and other terrorist groups have gotten from the US.

“_Key members of ISIS it now emerges were trained by US CIA and Special Forces command at a secret camp in Jordan in 2012, according to informed Jordanian officials,” writes __William Engdahl. “The US, Turkish and Jordanian intelligence were running a training base for the Syrian rebels in the Jordanian town of Safawi in the country’s northern desert region, conveniently near the borders to both Syria and Iraq. Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the two Gulf monarchies most involved in funding the war against Syria’s Assad, financed the Jordan ISIS training.”   _http://www.globalresearch.ca/establ...asset-story-dismissed-as-snowden-hoax/5395835


And yes Bob, a few speak and act for the millions in America.  You might not be declaring war on anyone personally, but your government has a habit of doing it.  As far as the 'American Torture' findings, those were apparently based on an intense perusal of 6,000 documents and at least one country, Poland, has stated that the US had a CIA 'black site' within its borders and at least a dozen or more other locations, including Jordan, Israel, Qatar, Saudi Arabia to name a few are suspected of hosting those CIA secret prisons.

If you are so concerned about lies, distortions and hatred, perhaps you should be contacting your representatives and telling them that you are in favour of treating other countries with the same kind of respect that the US would like to be a recipient of.  Bringing the truth of your country's own actions to you, is not because I or anyone hate you.  Your country is one of the largest in the world, and it's aggression has the potential to end life on this planet at this point.  Would you like for everyone to sit down and shut up while the agenda proceeds?  I would think that we all have a vested interest in discussing the impact that your country has had and can have on the world.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 12, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Does anybody remember the Church Commission of the seventies and what they put the then director of the CIA, Bill Colby, through?  The history of CIA "sins" from that period is eerily similar to those of today:  torture, assassinations, secret prisons in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc.  We have to accept who we are and stop saying this is not who we are...



Torture and black ops will be part of most country's unofficial playbook. Does it make it right-no. Should we try to stop it-yes. People forget but I think was the CIA that experimented on people with LSD and dispersed radiation in the NY subway I think to see how far radiation would spread. The US government did things like the Tuskegee experiments. For the so called greater good governments will do and rationalize everything.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

Debby said:


> No one is disputing the good actions of any country including the US.  The problem is that the other side of the 'American involvement coin' means that millions have died as a direct result of American intervention in countries around the world.  Those lives mean something.   Afghani lives, Iraqi's, Libyans, Cambodian, Vietnamese......
> 
> When you point to ISIS, you like so many, ignore the support and funding and training that they and other terrorist groups have gotten from the US.
> 
> ...



I hate to say this, but lady... you are really honking me off...  How do you KNOW that we don't?   I do ALL THE TIME...  However... each and every one of us are only represented by 3 people... TWO Senators... and ONE House Representative...   I call my three regularly.  I also call the White House comment line..   I also vote in every election.  I have called Harry Reid's office and John Boehner's office.    Would you also like me to   put on some sack cloth and lay in a bed of ashes?   I'll give you the numbers and YOU can call them too..  

Now I am getting a tad sick and tired of your insults and harping on this topic.   You sound like a broken record... and it's become tiring.   I would hate to put you on ignore, because many times you have something of value to say..... But this?   not so much.


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## BobF (Dec 13, 2014)

Sorry Debby, but your rant is so far off reality that it is insulting to all US folks that know better.   Yes, over the years we have been meeting different agencies in different countries for various reasons.   Just that the US met some folks years back and now they have organized into an international terrorist group is not due to the US meetings at all.   That is some really poor thinking on your part.   The millions killed by various mid east groups, including ISIS, does not mean the US is doing all that killing around the world.   You want to blame some country for the millions killed, look to Iran and it's puppet warriors that are running around in the middle east and killing anyone that disagrees with their ways.   Look to what has happened to Palestine for example and how much grief has been given to Israel.   All by the killers Iran has supported for many years.   Now we have ISIS trying to subdue Iraq and other areas.   These are not the US running around and killing others.   You might want to look to Russia for hidden support of them and filling the need for weapons they use to kill peaceful people in the middle east.   The US is actually on watch for the middle east killers to arrive in the US and start killing innocent people for no good reasons at all.   Now for you, maybe not a problem right now but if they do invade the US, then Canada is next.    So be a little bit alert to what is happening and forget your mistaken finger pointing at the US.


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## Fern (Dec 13, 2014)

Well said BobF. 


> Debs;  Ken, you need to ask yourself why these terrorists have become so angry  that they are moved to do the things that they do.  Aside from the  issues of religion being an oft times motivator of evil (Spanish  Inquistition, Crusades, etc.)


 'oft times motivator' that has to be the understatement of the year.


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

BobF said:


> Sorry Debby, but your rant is so far off reality that it is insulting to all US folks that know better.   Yes, over the years we have been meeting different agencies in different countries for various reasons.   Just that the US met some folks years back and now they have organized into an international terrorist group is not due to the US meetings at all.   That is some really poor thinking on your part.   The millions killed by various mid east groups, including ISIS, does not mean the US is doing all that killing around the world.   You want to blame some country for the millions killed, look to Iran and it's puppet warriors that are running around in the middle east and killing anyone that disagrees with their ways.   Look to what has happened to Palestine for example and how much grief has been given to Israel.   All by the killers Iran has supported for many years.   Now we have ISIS trying to subdue Iraq and other areas.   These are not the US running around and killing others.   You might want to look to Russia for hidden support of them and filling the need for weapons they use to kill peaceful people in the middle east.   The US is actually on watch for the middle east killers to arrive in the US and start killing innocent people for no good reasons at all.   Now for you, maybe not a problem right now but if they do invade the US, then Canada is next.    So be a little bit alert to what is happening and forget your mistaken finger pointing at the US.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone  CIA funded mujahadeen fighting Russians in Afghanistan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/how-thatcher-helped-pol-pot/5330873  USA support of Khmer Rouge in Cambodia

http://www.globalresearch.ca/americ...ebels-defeated-by-syrian-armed-forces/5334827  USA supports Al Nusra terrorists who are fighting Syria

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554   USA installed a neo-Nazi government in Ukraine (prior to the most recent election)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info  (take note of the banner and the numbers of dead in Iraq because of America)

Then there's Vietnam and Libya to account for.



Bob, I understand that hearing ones country has been implicated in millions of deaths around the world is a hard thing.  Especially when it is the opposite of what your own government tells you.  But the documentation is there and I'm just pointing out what others have discovered and gone on record with. 

American Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland who famously said "F*** the EU" has stated that your country supported the Ukraines neo-Nazi's to the tune of $5 billion.  And now Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden is now on the Board of Directors of Ukraines largest gas producer, Burisma Holdings and American Natalie Jaresko, previously in the State Department, just gave up her American citizenship so that Poroshenko could appoint her as Ukraines new Finance Minister a few minutes later.  Ukraine now has numerous American corporations at work there, Cargill, Monsanto, John Deere and Eli Lilly to name several.  America set out to destabilize Ukraine in their effort to 'fence in' Russia and they've used money, terrorists, and now corporations and (American) appointees to positions of power in Ukraine. And thus far over 4,000 have died in Ukraine at the hands of their own government and this government change is what the American administration began orchestrating at least as far back as 2013.

Russia didn't invade Crimea.  You've swallowed the kool-ade.  Crimea had a referendum that saw upwards of 90% of their population voting and of them around 82% voted to return to Russia.  When was the last time Canada or the US had that kind of turn out? And by the way, what happened in Crimea (re: the vote) is exactly what happened in Kosovo and the only difference is that the Kosovo vote was supported by the US because it served their purpose at the time whereas this doesn't serve the American agenda so the propaganda was dished up on a golden platter and people like you imbibe without hesitation or question.

You know what the problem is?  I find all these links from legitimate, credible (sometimes ex-government, ex-CIA individuals) and you don't read them.  And that's fine, your choice, but seriously to attack me because of what others who are political experts are saying doesn't hurt me at all.  I actually expect it.  The 'messenger' always takes a beating but it doesn't change the message at all. 

Just to show that I'm not worried about your judgement (because I'm not the source of the info) I could give you dozens of links that support everything I've said.  Can you provide one that refutes any of it that isn't direct from the White House?


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> I hate to say this, but lady... you are really honking me off...  How do you KNOW that we don't?   I do ALL THE TIME...  However... each and every one of us are only represented by 3 people... TWO Senators... and ONE House Representative...   I call my three regularly.  I also call the White House comment line..   I also vote in every election.  I have called Harry Reid's office and John Boehner's office.    Would you also like me to   put on some sack cloth and lay in a bed of ashes?   I'll give you the numbers and YOU can call them too..
> 
> Now I am getting a tad sick and tired of your insults and harping on this topic.   You sound like a broken record... and it's become tiring.   I would hate to put you on ignore, because many times you have something of value to say..... But this?   not so much.





Oh relax.  This is a discussion remember?  I don't know what you do in contacting your representative, just like I don't know what Denise or Whatinthe or BobF or any of you actually do.  It's sort of a general 'you' when I challenge 'you' to write, send emails, contact your representatives.  

I'm glad that you contact your reps.  Good for you.  But my point is, not everyone does.  My mom for example prides herself on being politically astute but she never contacts anyone, just whines and complains when things don't work out like she thinks they should.  So when I talk politics it has become a general practise to encourage everybody to be involved and not just when they check the box if you know what I mean.

I have to say though, that the one message that is coming through loud and clear from you is that even when your government does things that impact anyone else, anywhere else in the world, because I am not an American, you expect me to just button it and keep my mouth shut.  Is that about it?  So let me ask you this, if America is going to start working hard on cleaning up the environment and so on (re: fossil fuels), and Canada's tar sands continued to be developed and the effects of the toxins in the air began to drift down and affect Idaho and Montana and North Dakota, would you expect to be able to complain or even contact the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan who are pumping their toxic air into the jet stream for inhalation by American citizens?  Or would you just button it and keep your mouth shut?


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

In reply to your comments about the CIA using LSD on patients in a Canadian hospital WhatInThe, here is a link that talks about that.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...ompensation-in-50s-brainwashing-case-1.670151

My husbands mother was in Allen Memorial hospital at the time.  I think she was in there because she had had a nervous breakdown so she may well have been a victim of the CIA experiments.  She was a pretty whacked out lady in the brief years that I knew her and maybe that treatment had something to do with it.  Those were the years that my husband and his older brother were in a Montreal Boys Home because his dad was an alcoholic and didn't want the kids when his wife was hospitalized.

I will point out one thing here to all the American members who are PO'd because I talk about the things that I do.  I almost never comment on your politics as long as it stays within your borders.  That is not my place and I don't keep up with what your various states are deciding to do when it comes to local issues.  The only time I jump in is when your politics affect other countries or in the rare instance that some kind of animal abuse occurs that AR groups are fighting against.  Like I'll speak up for orca's at Seaworld, pigeons in Pennsylvannia or wolves in Idaho, or food animals overall.  But your local politics gets a pass from me pretty much.


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## tnthomas (Dec 13, 2014)

> Americans *HUMAN*s  are a violent, vicious bunch



I agree with the statement with the modification above.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

Debby said:


> Oh relax.  This is a discussion remember?  I don't know what you do in contacting your representative, just like I don't know what Denise or Whatinthe or BobF or any of you actually do.  It's sort of a general 'you' when I challenge 'you' to write, send emails, contact your representatives.
> 
> I'm glad that you contact your reps.  Good for you.  But my point is, not everyone does.  My mom for example prides herself on being politically astute but she never contacts anyone, just whines and complains when things don't work out like she thinks they should.  So when I talk politics it has become a general practise to encourage everybody to be involved and not just when they check the box if you know what I mean.
> 
> I have to say though, that the one message that is coming through loud and clear from you is that even when your government does things that impact anyone else, anywhere else in the world, because I am not an American, you expect me to just button it and keep my mouth shut.  Is that about it?  So let me ask you this, if America is going to start working hard on cleaning up the environment and so on (re: fossil fuels), and Canada's tar sands continued to be developed and the effects of the toxins in the air began to drift down and affect Idaho and Montana and North Dakota, would you expect to be able to complain or even contact the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan who are pumping their toxic air into the jet stream for inhalation by American citizens?  Or would you just button it and keep your mouth shut?




Yeah?  So Canada SUCKS too...  But I'm not ignoranat enough to keep harping on it over and over...  So What are YOU doing to fix suckie Canada?  Are you calling the right people..?   Or just sitting back and complaining about it.. and everyone else..??


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

You go for it.  Say it and get it off your chest and I'm sure you'll feel better now.  

What am I doing?  Well, like you QS, I vote and I write all the time to the various departments of my government.  I write direct to the MP who is in charge of foreign affairs or agriculture, immigration, whatever and whomever is in charge of the appropriate department.  I occasionally write to my area MP but I generally go straight to the top and I've even written my Prime Minister on numerous occasions this past year. Why mess around with a middle man when you can access the top office?   I've also written letters to the possible new government that will hopefully come in at the next election to let them know what I expect of them if they take over the reins of government.  I would say that I've probably written at least a couple dozen letters this year, if not more.  I definitely don't just sit around and complain to my peers.

A guy named Joel Blackwell wrote a book called 'Keep On Voting After The Election',  and in it he said:  'A *number* of years ago I was in a presentation that said members of Congress know that *every letter* they *receive represents* 10,000 *opinions* of *people* who didn't *write*. ... I suspect they keep some *similar* tally of e-mails........'

Now that was an American writer, but I suspect the same standard goes for Canadian politics and politicians.  So by all means, we should all keep writing and emailing and phoning and letting our reps or the official government of the day, know exactly how you and 10,000 other people who are all voters feel.  And maybe if enough of us on both sides of the border are saying, 'don't do things that harm other people and let's all respect each other and learn to get along', then maybe the tide will turn.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

Debby said:


> You go for it.  Say it and get it off your chest and I'm sure you'll feel better now.
> 
> What am I doing?  Well, like you QS, I vote and I write all the time to the various departments of my government.  I write direct to the MP who is in charge of foreign affairs, agriculture, immigration, whatever and whomever is in charge of the appropriate department.  I occasionally write to my area MP but I generally go straight to the top and I've even written my Prime Minister on numerous occasions this past year.  Why mess around with a middle man when you can access the top office?  I would say that I've probably written at least a couple dozen letters this year, if not more.  I definitely don't just sit around and complain to my peers.



And How's that working out for you?...  I don't think you are trying hard enough!!  You should work harder to fix all the problems of Canada.  Like you expect us to do here.  With all your activism, its a wonder you have so much time to insult us!


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> And How's that working out for you?...  I don't think you are trying hard enough!!  You should work harder to fix all the problems of Canada.  Like you expect us to do here.  With all your activism, its a wonder you have so much time to insult us!




Now you're just being silly QS.  None of us can fix government by ourselves.  But you know something, we can all try and besides informing those who don't know what is really going on overseas, I try to encourage people to vote, write, contact, phone, be involved.  It's only insults if it is untrue  and if I say it in a demeaning, cruel or rude way.  Problem is that everything that I've said and provided links for is true and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that I haven't called anyone names or inferred anything about anyones genetics or questioned anyones integrity or intelligence.  

Insulting?  Nope, at least not deliberately.  But how you chose to receive a statement is entirely your issue isn't it?


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

Debby said:


> Now you're just being silly QS.  None of us can fix government by ourselves.  But you know something, we can all try and besides informing those who don't know what is really going on overseas, I try to encourage people to vote, write, contact, phone, be involved.  It's only insults if it is untrue  and if I say it in a demeaning, cruel or rude way.  Problem is that everything that I've said and provided links for is true and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that I haven't called anyone names or inferred anything about anyones genetics or questioned anyones integrity or intelligence.
> 
> Insulting?  Nope, at least not deliberately.  But how you chose to receive a statement is entirely your issue isn't it?



oh really...  None of us can fix it by ourselves?   You seem pretty sure we can..... if we only cared and tried.. and stopped thinking we were so freakin' wonderful.  Wasn't that your gripe?   And YES... you are deliberately insulting..  if not then you are pretty inept at understanding how to talk to people and get you point across without being offensive.


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

QS, I have never been deliberately insulting.  Not once.  I'm pretty sure if I was, I'd have been kicked off this forum by now.  

I've shared links, I've encouraged people to be involved, I've corrected people when they made wrong assumptions (and I always provided credible links to back up my statements).  But I've never deliberately insulted anyone and I've maintained a pretty even tone through it all.  And I've also never suggested that one person can fix anything by themselves.  But while we're at it, let's take a look at your comments #28 and #30.  Opinions, most definitely, but actual information, not so much.

And for the record, one of your own also has issues with your President's label of 'exceptionalism'.  You should read all about it:  http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/06/02/obama-told-us-west-point-paul-craig-roberts/


Unfortunately this discussion seems to have devolved so maybe it would be good if I just left you to it.  Talk to you again sometime.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

Maybe... and then again... maybe not.


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## BobF (Dec 13, 2014)

Complaints about the US and our using gasoline, natural gas, oil, coal, etc. depends on who is in office in the US.   We were doing OK till Obama took office.   Suddenly, per his advisers, our use of coal was way wrong.   Even though we had processed the coal prior to burning to where it made no poison's to the air or land.   But Obama would not even let our trial plant go to work with the new ways of doing business.   So we still have no way of knowing if our proposals really work or not.   Far too much of the 'clean' folks arguments are based on theory and not on facts.   Pretty sad situation to be living in theory rather than with tested and proven ways.   This is just one example of the far distorted political thinking now going on around this world.   One thing about the US Constitution is that our ways are determined by the people, not the radical governments like the one we have.   Maybe that is why our recent election went so heavily against the current government that has been operating as if the voters do not count, just the gang on top.


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## BobF (Dec 14, 2014)

This group http://www.globalresearch.ca/about is a private group on their very own path of discrediting those that do not agree with their agenda.  They do use biased logic to make things fit their agenda.   So I have read the indicated posts and find them to be fit for some that think wars are wrong if going against what I believe to be very wrong socialist or communist types of handling people.  To point out that the US has had something to do with killing these terrorist types and saying that is bad seems strange to my thinking.   Being independent means they can decide for themselves how they want to decide is good or bad.   Far too much of US activities is considered bad according to their writings.   While the US does have reasons to do what it does, being different from this group that at least one loves, does not make it wrong for the US, at the time this activity took place.   Stretch it as you will but after many years there is little reason for such biased attitude.  Times change reasons and justification for past activities.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

I made a point of looking up Global Research as I first discovered them and the following link gives a pretty good explanation of their focus and purpose as well as the founder, Michael Chossudovsky.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky 

Mr. Chossudovsky's credentials are impeccable and the information that I've found through his website is invariably backed up on other websites.  

The rest of your comment seems to indicate that you are for war, you think that only sites that are connected (to government?) are credible and you are willing to accept that government can wage war (for their own reasons even if it does nothing to improve the lives of anyone).  I take it then that you dismiss anything that does not come out of Washington or other governments offices and in my opinion that is a set up for a lot of not very good stuff for the average civilian.  Remember, in any given war, 85% approximately of the dead that result are moms, dads, little kids and grandma's and grandpas.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

Read my post above and follow that link for where I found the content which I posted about.   If you love globalization you love confusion and difficulties for the future.   Try globalization in your dictionary.   If your dictionary has options, try them as some countries do show problems to be caused by globalization and you seem to be in love with a globalization organization.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

There is absolutely nothing that jumps out with red flags flying, on that website you linked to if you are an individual who is seeking the other side of the story and if you are interested in reading articles written by intelligent people, some of whom have the highest credentials.

Globalization is with us.  We are linked in every way imaginable.  That is unlikely to change even if the USA did become 'the ruler of the world' as suggested by Bret Stephensons writings.  What I am more interested in is a world where we all do business with one another and interact with one another on a footing of mutual respect for both our similarities and our differences and where each country or individual is considered unique and worthy in their own right as opposed to one individual or one group being exceptional and thereby affording themselves the privilege of assuming the role of 'king over all'.  

There is all kinds of history that can be looked back on (for education purposes) where we can see what happened when kings ruled.  How many of those hundreds/thousands of kingdoms saw good times for the few at the top while the peasants at the bottom suffered under the yoke of serfdom or even outright slavery?

I think if you were a citizen of Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, Somalia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, Cuba, east Ukraine, Gaza or the West Bank, Iran, ...... you'd have a different notion of the actions of the American government and their decades old 'run for the crown'.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

Debby said:


> There is absolutely nothing that jumps out with red flags flying, on that website you linked to if you are an individual who is seeking the other side of the story and if you are interested in reading articles written by intelligent people, some of whom have the highest credentials.
> 
> Globalization is with us.  We are linked in every way imaginable.  That is unlikely to change even if the USA did become 'the ruler of the world' as suggested by Bret Stephensons writings.  What I am more interested in is a world where we all do business with one another and interact with one another on a footing of mutual respect for both our similarities and our differences and where each country or individual is considered unique and worthy in their own right as opposed to one individual or one group being exceptional and thereby affording themselves the privilege of assuming the role of 'king over all'.
> 
> ...



After reading this post I see that you are a very  isolated mind set and fixed in you opinions of the US government.    I see the US as pretty much opposite of the way you express us to be.   And hopefully the US will never change and become a part of the closed mind some folks seem to want us all to be.   The US has been around the world to answer UN requests for help for this onr or that one.   We are not just going here and there and starting wars.   During the Iran wars we have had help from many nations, I think about 100 nations but don't have a real count.   In Korea it was of many nations together for the UN.   In Indo China it was more of a collaboration among western nations and not UN.   Where has the US gone and helped countries to end attacks and then stayed on as a dictator type?    None that I know of.   We have kept military in various countries to keep support to some treaty countries in case some other country would try to attack.   We left the Philippines some years back as the government there said we should.   We are not implanted anywhere and we work for friendly ways of living together.   Quite different from your postings above.   If anyone it being hateful and resentful of the US government it would be someone you see in the mirror.
........................................
*globalization*


                                                                       [gloh-buh-luh-zey-shuh n]                                                                                              



                          Examples                     
 
                                                                                                           noun

                                                                         1.  the act of globalizing, or extending to other or all parts of the world: the globalization of manufacturing.

                                                   2.  worldwide integration and development: Globablization has resulted in the loss of some individual cultural identities.

                             Also, especially British, globalisation. 

                                               Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2014.
Cite This Source 
                                  Examples from the web for globalization



Many of the coffee and sugar cane plantations around here have collapsed, done in by the forces of _globalization_. 
The book was fascinating -it gave me a whole new perspective on the nature of higher education in a time of _globalization_. 
The benefits of _globalization _are spread unevenly. 

                              British Dictionary definitions for globalization                     
*globalization*

                                                                       /ˌɡləʊbəlaɪˈzeɪʃən/                               

                                       noun 

                                                 1.  the process enabling financial and investment markets to operate internationally, largely as a result of deregulation and improved communications 

                                                                  2.  the emergence since the 1980s of a single world market dominated by multinational companies, leading to a diminishing capacity for national governments to control their economies 

                                                                  3.  the process by which a company, etc, expands to operate internationally 


Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition
 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2012
Cite This Source 

                              Word Origin and History for globalization                     
                                                           n.                                                                                           
1961, from globalize, which is attested at least from 1953 in various senses; the main modern one, with reference to global economic systems, emerged 1959. 

                          Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source 

                              Encyclopedia Article for globalization                     
*globalisation*

                                      In 2000 the media were full of references to globalization of the economy, communications-even politics and military affairs. Large crowds turned out to protest meetings such as that of the World Trade Organization (WTO) in Seattle, Wash., in 1999 or called attention to International Monetary Fund (IMF) policies in granting loans to struggling economies. What were these protests all about? 
..................................


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