# You are lucky I am your father, (drawing attention to fatherlessness)



## grahamg (Sep 4, 2022)

The title of this thread is intended to draw attention obviously, and it is likely a number of forum members will wish to disagree with the theme behind the title, that there is something wrong in the world when fatherlessness is so prevalent, ("fatherlessness" here meaning natural fathers not having contact with their children during most/all their years growing up).

Most people on this forum would still probably criticise those fathers helping to bring children into this world without any desire to help bring up the child, or thought for whether they should be involved at all.

However, in todays world with sperm banks and here in the UK there is no longer any need or requirement for those professionals considering assisting a would be mother, to take into account whether there is a husband or partner to help bring up the child produced, it hard to see how our government institutions can criticise men who abandon their own children, (or at least with the same degree of force they might once have been able to do).

To close my title suggests the children of those men who did all in their power to love them and stay in their lives, even when the family law system takes "Mother tending to be the gatekeeper of the children's relationship with the other parent" as a given, (rather than something to be opposed).   

Here then are some statistics:
*How many children lose contact with their fathers following divorce(?)*:
https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_an...ldren lose contact with father during divorce

*An article here suggests one in two children lose meaningful contact*:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/nov/20/non-resident-dads-relationship-children

Back to saying 30% of children lose contact with their fathers here, (assessing the situation ten years ago):
https://www.family-lawfirm.co.uk/blog/third-of-children-lose-contact-with-father-in-divorce/

Quote:
"*Third of children lose contact with father in divorce*

I have long been aware of the devastating impact divorce and separation can have on children, yet I was still particularly horrified to read recently the statistics from a poll undertaken on behalf of another firm of solicitors.
Most alarming to me was the revelation that “one in three children whose parents separated or divorced over the last 20 years disclosed that they had lost contact permanently with their father”. Equally concerning was the fact that “almost a tenth of children from broken families said the acrimonious process had left them feeling suicidal while others later sought solace in drink, drugs or crime”.
The picture this paints of our society and the way the courts system deals with family break-up is not a pretty one, particularly with the acceptance from some parents polled who said they had deliberately used the children as “bargaining tools against each other”. This can only put further strain on relations when it may be perceived that children are taking sides."


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## Remy (Sep 4, 2022)

No doubt children become pawns when the adults decide they no longer like each other. And the child had no say so in their pairing or that they were created.

My bio-dad was a deadbeat. Let me rephrase that, a WWII hero, but to me still a deadbeat. My mother put a stop to us kids seeing him. I know he never tried to after that. Not in any meaningful way. He did do some stalking and I guess went to my 8th grade graduation. Sent a letter to the house. It was really weird and berated me for my weight. Of coarse my mother showed me the letter so I would know what a horrible person he was. And all she had been through because of him. You know the man she chose to marry and procreate with. Didn't protect me from the contents of that letter. Why would she, I didn't matter. It was all about her. The kids end up bearing the burden of those marriages that don't work out much of the time.


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## grahamg (Sep 5, 2022)

Remy said:


> No doubt children become pawns when the adults decide they no longer like each other. And the child had no say so in their pairing or that they were created.
> 
> My bio-dad was a deadbeat. Let me rephrase that, a WWII hero, but to me still a deadbeat. My mother put a stop to us kids seeing him. I know he never tried to after that. Not in any meaningful way. He did do some stalking and I guess went to my 8th grade graduation. Sent a letter to the house. It was really weird and berated me for my weight. Of coarse my mother showed me the letter so I would know what a horrible person he was. And all she had been through because of him. You know the man she chose to marry and procreate with. Didn't protect me from the contents of that letter. Why would she, I didn't matter. It was all about her. The kids end up bearing the burden of those marriages that don't work out much of the time.


I'm often criticised on this forum, especially when raising the subject of fathers/parents rights, or lack of them in the UK, (occasionally my own parenting gets a good kicking from those choosing to indulge themselves, when obviously they can have no real idea what went on in my own family following marital breakdown).
However, disparaging your own father as you do, (and of course my own daughter has done, even though I believe I could not have loved a child more), raises some awkward questions in my mind, the first being is it possible to try to look at matters the way your father must have had to do?
No one can be absolutely sure, given whatever it was made him behave as he did, that in the same circumstances you wouldn't have behaved the same way. You might resist that thought, and please accept I've come across enough fathers seemingly deserving the description "deadbeat dads", (and even some fathers who were hardworking enough to earn money to pay towards their children who could not show love and affection towards them for whatever reason, whose children you have to feel for because of this).
My daughter can condemn me all she wishes, ("you ruined the first twelve years of my life" for example), but up to the age of twelve her own wishes would have to have been ignored had I not complied when she said, "I hate you, you are horrible,....., keep coming daddy", (seemingly unware of the contractions contained in her statements).

Kids can suffer I agree, and this thread suggests widespread "fatherlessness" in the UK is a big enough issue already, (meaning "natural fathers not seeing their children, as stated in an earlier post), and its obviously not possible to fix everything that can go wrong when marriages fail etc., but a modest enough aim in the UK is surely to give those "decent dads/parents" who do wish to play their part emotionally as well as financially in their children's lives at least the meagrest of statutory rights, (so that the lack of such rights doesn't cause dads who might provide their children with love and care to give up before they get started).


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## Tish (Sep 5, 2022)

There is a huge difference between deadbeat dads and those that cannot be 100% active in their child's life for whatever reason there may be, divorce is one, separation whatever.

And then you have a group of fathers that are fantastic with their children but violent with that child's mother/Father/partner/ what have you. ( not that I approve of violence in any shape or form)

There is no doubt in my mind that this is not a clear-cut discussion or situation and everyone has a unique story to tell.
As I have heard your story many times, I will graciously bow out.

Have at it people.


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## grahamg (Sep 5, 2022)

Tish said:


> There is a huge difference between deadbeat dads and those that cannot be 100% active in their child's life for whatever reason there may be, divorce is one, separation whatever.
> And then you have a group of fathers that are fantastic with their children but violent with that child's mother/Father/partner/ what have you. ( not that I approve of violence in any shape or form). There is no doubt in my mind that this is not a clear-cut discussion or situation and everyone has a unique story to tell.
> As I have heard your story many times, I will graciously bow out. Have at it people.


Thanks for your contribution.
I would just point out to anyone else on the forum wishing to respond that the fact "everyone has a unique story to tell", should not be sufficient reason to deny all decent dads/parents any statutory rights in my view, (not that I'm suggesting you meant to infer this).
Violence would of course be just cause to lead to the qualified right of contact with your child, (or "rebuttable presumption in favour of contact"), being withheld.


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## Remy (Sep 5, 2022)

@grahamg As I've stated before, I know you are hurting over things in you life and your relationship with your daughter. At my age, I may still complain, but I've also come to the conclusion I bombed in the parent department. Mentally ill mother, dead beat bio-dad and enabler stepfather. Stories are complicated and no one can ever know everything or even convey everything.

One never knows why someone may cut off contact with parents and other family members. But if I could do it all over again, no contact or at least very low contact by moving far away is what I would have done.


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## bowmore (Sep 5, 2022)

My ex did a number on both of my sons. Without going into the details, which are from many years ago, it made the most inpact on my younger son.
Fortunately, some years later, I reconnected with both of them and now have good relationships. It took some serious discussions with my younger son to finally clear the air.


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## Chet (Sep 5, 2022)

I was fortunate. My father was the bread winner and my mother was a stay at home mom. It was typical of the community I grew up in. Yes there was friction at times, but overall it was a stable environment in which to grow up. Even with a good upbringing though, I did my best at times to screw things up but eventually took the right path.


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## Pepper (Sep 5, 2022)

How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?'  That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree.  Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story.  In her story she wants nothing to do with you.  Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.


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## Remy (Sep 5, 2022)

bowmore said:


> My ex did a number on both of my sons. Without going into the details, which are from many years ago, it made the most inpact on my younger son.
> Fortunately, some years later, I reconnected with both of them and now have good relationships. It took some serious discussions with my younger son to finally clear the air.


I'm very glad. I do believe my bio-dad wasn't much. I can deal with that. More drastically though is the isolation my mother did to my stepfather and us kids from his family, who I think were decent people. I remember them being nothing but nice to me when I was a kid. Not one bad memory of any of them for the contact I had.

Unfortunately turning children away from family is common. On the forum I go to for children with a borderline parent, I have read countless posts of people saying they met family that their (usually it's the mother) mother hated. They reconnected with these family members as adults and found they were nothing like their mother said they were. It's really horrible to do that to a child. And sadly it's not a rarity.


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## grahamg (Sep 5, 2022)

Pepper said:


> How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?'  That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree.  Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story.  In her story she wants nothing to do with you.  Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.


Let me very briefly try to turn your argument back on you.

Whether or not I was a decent dad, or any other dad could have themselves rightly described by that term, (I've heard Family court judges use the term "Okay dads"), do you wish to see all dads/parents, denied any statutory parental rights, (as is the case in the UK), just because I may not be quite as decent a dad as you and people who think like you, may wish us to be?


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## grahamg (Sep 5, 2022)

Remy said:


> @grahamg As I've stated before, I know you are hurting over things in you life and your relationship with your daughter. At my age, I may still complain, but I've also come to the conclusion I bombed in the parent department. Mentally ill mother, dead beat bio-dad and enabler stepfather. Stories are complicated and no one can ever know everything or even convey everything.
> 
> One never knows why someone may cut off contact with parents and other family members. But if I could do it all over again, no contact or at least very low contact by moving far away is what I would have done.


Forget for a moment whether it is hurt that causes me to continue to post on this subject, think about the lack of parental statutory rights in the UK I keep mentioning would you(?).

Whatever happened in my case there may other reason I keep on posting about this topic. There might be, "love", (being shunned by your child who you loved), and then there is my thinking its a big deal so many decent dads, (even if forum members think I may not have been one), there are many many decent dads, mums, grandparents excluded from their children's/grandchildren's lives for no good reason. 

When our family law system was investigated by our UK government, or a body set up to do so on its behalf, "irrational behaviour" on the part of the custodial or residential parent was put forward as sufficient justification for excluding the other parent, by professionals working in family law and lecturing on the subject. Doesn't that fact alone convince you at all that something may be wrong here?


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## Knight (Sep 5, 2022)

Don't want to sound insensitive but this as a topic  has been posted in various forms.  
You have posted multiple times about how the court system is unfair. 
Courts try to work to assure the best interests of the child. If the courts didn't decide in your favor why didn't they?

Items like did you seek sole  custody? Did you?
If Denied why? 
Did you pay child support & pay over the court amount required of you?
Did you try to see your daughter on special occasions? If not why not?

Your daughter is a mature adult able to decide for herself about who she wants in her life. At this time in her life have you been able to establish communication to find out why she doesn't want you in it?


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## Been There (Sep 5, 2022)

My dad died when I was 9 along with my my mom. As a 9 year old boy, I can only tell anyone that asks that my dad really loved being a family man. My mom and dad tried twice before to have a child and on try #3, I was born. After I was born, my parents had to adopt because my mom had to have a hysterectomy performed after my birth for her health reasons. Before the adoption went through, my parents were killed, so I was the only child to my parents. Sometimes life just isn’t fair.


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## mrstime (Sep 5, 2022)

My mother left when l was 5, she needed the divorce because she was pregnant with another mans child. So my father used custody of me to let her have a quickie divorce. Most of the time my grandparents raised me, however he decided to make me live with him as I was a teenager.I won't go into everything, but if it hadn't been for our next door neighbor I would have starved to death. They had a bunch of kids and my father told me to never eat with them because they were poor. I suspect though that his objection was that they were Mexican-American.Then I got back to my grandparents when I was 15, and one day my father was haranguing me  and after quite a while my grandfather said "thats enough, leave the girl alone"  my father moved that night to northern California. But of course I was afraid of him, and the love I had for my daddy died . Turns out that the baby my mother had was not raised by her, that child was raised by her grandparents . Needless to say I loved my grandparents and miss them, especially grandma........every day I think of her and miss her.


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## grahamg (Sep 6, 2022)

Knight said:


> Don't want to sound insensitive but this as a topic  has been posted in various forms.
> You have posted multiple times about how the court system is unfair.
> Courts try to work to assure the best interests of the child. If the courts didn't decide in your favor why didn't they?
> Items like did you seek sole  custody? Did you?
> ...


You wont mind my dodging your direct questions concerning my daughter, (the how, what, why questions), because as you rightly say I have posted on this topic more often than anyone cares to remember.

Why carry on posting about it then?

This is a question I tried to answer above, but I've a few more things to say, (some involving fairly intimate details only I and my ex. will know occurred for example, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether they're true or not).

I had not known my future wife long when she told me, "I want to have your child", (hearing any girl saying that would have been enough to turn many a young man's head dont you think hey!).

Whilst married I was concerned lest my wife should leave it too long before having a child, (she was twenty eight when our daughter was born). The point I'm making is that it was a deeply held belief or instinct within me letting me know I wished to have a child, and not just "have a child" but have a child with someone I believed loved me enough to wish to have my child. Then beyond that I wished for my child to grow up well and be a good person, who would help others too as much as they could.

I wanted to be close with my child, (and believe I achieved that, though you may well question that statement, if you're relying on the same evidence that has already caused other forum members to assume I wasn't a good/decent/loving dad).

There has to be "no excuses" so far as I'm concerned when it comes to what you do as a parent, in the sense that you do what you believe is right. You make your own mind up on these things and allow no one to dominate your views, and were you to allow others to interfere then the desired "closeness" you may have wished to have with your child will be thrown away automatically.

In my belief providing you followed a few basic rules, the state should assume you're worthy as a dad of the meagrest of statutory rights. However, if you, and all the others posting on this thread, or commenting on any of the other threads I've posted on this subject, are content that there are no statutory rights then there is nothing to be done.

I'm assuming folks on this forum are a fair cross section of the general population, or even more likely to believe in marriage, and the role parents should be allowed to play in their children's lives without state interference, (except where there is a possibility harm of some kind).


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## Knight (Sep 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You wont mind my dodging your direct questions concerning my daughter, (the how, what, why questions), because as you rightly say I have posted on this topic more often than anyone cares to remember.





grahamg said:


> No I don't mind although answereing might have explained much of what you post about
> 
> This is a question I tried to answer above, but I've a few more things to say, (some involving fairly intimate details only I and my ex. will know occurred for example, so you'll have to decide for yourself whether they're true or not).





grahamg said:


> No reason to not believe you.





grahamg said:


> I had not known my future wife long when she told me, "I want to have your child", (hearing any girl saying that would have been enough to turn many a young man's head dont you think hey!).





grahamg said:


> At 17 I had that experience.
> 
> 
> grahamg said:
> ...





grahamg said:


> Prior posts like this last one don't fill in the blanks regarding why you still don't have a good relationship with your daughter





grahamg said:


> I'm assuming folks on this forum are a fair cross section of the general population, or even more likely to believe in marriage, and the role parents should be allowed to play in their children's lives without state interference, (except where there is a possibility harm of some kind).





grahamg said:


> I too believe folks on this forum are fair.  You do make it difficult to understand your thoughts especially when you post that you & your daughter  aren't close.


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## grahamg (Sep 6, 2022)

Sorry its all gotten so fragmented.

I'll stick to my policy of not responding further concerning my own child, at least until I have some kind of response to my question as to whether forum members are content "decent dads/parents" have no statutory legal rights in the UK?

(However, thanks for your interest in the thread and posts).


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## Sassycakes (Sep 6, 2022)

I had the BEST Dad in the world and I miss him every day. He passed away too soon.


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## grahamg (Sep 6, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> I had the BEST Dad in the world and I miss him every day. He passed away too soon.


Couldn't be more pleased, and yet even if he were not the best dad he undoubtedly was, you'd allow a meagre level of statutory rights so the scepticism witnessed everywhere about a parent/dad didn't of itself destroy relationships(?).
Having your own child you stick with them through all kinds of difficulties dont you, (a good dad, or even an okay dad would attempt to do this), and there has to be a sense of "quid pro quo" about this doesn't there, not one side taking everything and giving nothing in return.


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## Lavinia (Sep 6, 2022)

Pepper said:


> How do we really know you were 'a decent dad?'  That's your side of the story; a unique story you tell. I don't really disbelieve you, but you were found wanting to some degree.  Your daughter is an adult and she has her unique story.  In her story she wants nothing to do with you.  Bet her reason is unique to her and for her.


This is one of the problems....we only get one side of the story. There must have been very good reasons why the decision was made to give the mother custody.


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## grahamg (Sep 7, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> This is one of the problems....we only get one side of the story. There must have been very good reasons why the decision was made to give the mother custody.


You've highlighted "one problem", but if you dont mind my saying, whilst doing so you've highlighted another problem, one I wish to force you and other forum members to confront, ("if at all possible").

The very words, "we only get one side of the story" carry with them an assumption, and that assumption is that someone, a professional of some kind employed in the family law system most often, but in the context of this discussion, every forum member choosing to try to make a critical assessment, can come to conclusions that may be wiser and more pertinent to the interests of children, than the father/parent of any particular child.

No one seems to react when I keep stating "there are no statutory parental rights in the UK", (only once did someone react on one of these many threads concerning that fact, to tell me the situation differs in the USA, where some states do allow some statutory rights for dads/parents, and even mention the word "love" in relation to the child and who might love them!).

Hence my desire to learn what reaction forum members have who choose to ignore the lack of statutory parental rights here, because that is the big story here isn't it, not the ins and outs of whatever happened during my twelve years of contact with my child.

I'll throw in an aside for you though, or anecdote, just to give you an insight into my thinking.

Yesterday evening I spent time in a bar at Burnham on Sea, Somerset, trying to watch a big soccer game. it was a fairly popular bar, with many young people there not so interested in the game being shown, and choosing instead to "shoot some pool". A well built young woman, with two more petite friends started a game of pool with some of the local lads. We learnt her stepfather was present at the bar, (watching the soccer game as it happens), and her two friends took little interest in the soccer being shown or the pool game her friend was involved in.

The point of mentioning this encounter concerns who was the loudest person present, it was this young well built woman, (here it gets called "ladette" behaviour in a satirical magazine called Private Eye). The young men were not shy looking types but no one tried to compete with the laddish behaviour of this woman, and I'd suggest she isn't an uncommon example here, dominating conversations, drawing attention to herself and so on, and my feeling is most if not all of those lads would be looking at her and seeing "red flags" so far as befriending her goes.

Telling you all this may be completely irrelevant on this thread, with the exception of the fact we learned she had a stepdad, (who certainly took no steps to try to quieten down the loud noise she was making), but one wonders what her real/biological dad would have thought, and if he wanted his girl to act up like this(?).

We'll not get to know will we, because as you've highlighted "we dont get to hear or know both sides of the story, (maybe there is three sides to this story, my description of what went on, the young woman I'm referring to might have a different recollection, or else be "loud and proud", and then whatever the father might say,......,,  tough to talk about really any further if you want all that info before coming to any conclusions where the truth lies!  ).


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2022)

A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order


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## helenbacque (Sep 7, 2022)

A lot of things can be legislated but affection is not one of them.


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## Sassycakes (Sep 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Couldn't be more pleased, and yet even if he were not the best dad he undoubtedly was, you'd allow a meagre level of statutory rights so the scepticism witnessed everywhere about a parent/dad didn't of itself destroy relationships(?).
> Having your own child you stick with them through all kinds of difficulties dont you, (a good dad, or even an okay dad would attempt to do this), and there has to be a sense of "quid pro quo" about this doesn't there, not one side taking everything and giving nothing in return.


My Mother didn't like me but my Dad adored me and my brother and sister. After my Mom passed away about ten years ago my older brother sent me a letter saying that he admired all I did for, my Mom, in spite of how she treated me. He said my Mom treated him like he was a king, yet he never did anything for her as I did.


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## ElCastor (Sep 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The title of this thread is intended to draw attention obviously, and it is likely a number of forum members will wish to disagree with the theme behind the title, that there is something wrong in the world when fatherlessness is so prevalent, ("fatherlessness" here meaning natural fathers not having contact with their children during most/all their years growing up).


For boys in particular, a fatherless childhood in many of our urban environments can spell trouble. The drug dealer down on the corner, or local gang members, may become models of male behavior and substitute father figures.


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## palides2021 (Sep 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I'm often criticised on this forum, especially when raising the subject of fathers/parents rights, or lack of them in the UK, (occasionally my own parenting gets a good kicking from those choosing to indulge themselves, when obviously they can have no real idea what went on in my own family following marital breakdown).
> However, disparaging your own father as you do, (and of course my own daughter has done, even though I believe I could not have loved a child more), raises some awkward questions in my mind, the first being is it possible to try to look at matters the way your father must have had to do?
> No one can be absolutely sure, given whatever it was made him behave as he did, that in the same circumstances you wouldn't have behaved the same way. You might resist that thought, and please accept I've come across enough fathers seemingly deserving the description "deadbeat dads", (and even some fathers who were hardworking enough to earn money to pay towards their children who could not show love and affection towards them for whatever reason, whose children you have to feel for because of this).
> My daughter can condemn me all she wishes, ("you ruined the first twelve years of my life" for example), but up to the age of twelve her own wishes would have to have been ignored had I not complied when she said, "I hate you, you are horrible,....., keep coming daddy", (seemingly unware of the contractions contained in her statements).
> ...


I am not sure what your message is about in this thread. I feel the pain of separation with your daughter couched by many words. Here, you mention that your daughter has condemned you ("I hate you..."). Those were harsh words she said to you. Probably in anger. Those are precious moments between you and her that, frankly IMO, should not be aired in public. When a child feels that way about a parent, whether they are male or female, something is lacking in their life. Did you try and resolve these issues with her? You don't need to answer. Just giving you thoughts to reflect upon.


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## grahamg (Sep 7, 2022)

Knight said:


> A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order


Yes, I'm leaving out the things you're interested in on this thread or now, (that's okay isn't it, we've covered most if not all the ground so often already!).
I did wonder whether it might be informative to try to ask some of the fathers/grandparents/mothers I used to campaign alongside in the streets of London twenty years ago to give their insights, but maybe they will have forgotten me by now, and moved on in their lives.

There is a man from the USA who might show an interest in our discussions, and I have heard from him more recently so perhaps he's the right person to ask whether he'd share his experiences, (he might shock some people, though very happily for all concerned everything seems to have worked out very well regarding his son, after a long and difficult period when everything seemed to go against him).


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## grahamg (Sep 7, 2022)

helenbacque said:


> A lot of things can be legislated but affection is not one of them.


You are right in one sense but not in another.

I've heard it said that although family courts may or may not assist in helping fathers/mothers stay in contact with their children, one thing they can certainly do is destroy relationships between parents and their children, (or help those destroying said relationships).


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## grahamg (Sep 7, 2022)

ElCastor said:


> For boys in particular, a fatherless childhood in many of our urban environments can spell trouble. The drug dealer down on the corner, or local gang members, may become models of male behavior and substitute father figures.


Its hard to be absolutely certain, but anyone who has had a settled home life knows how much our parents did for us, even if we didn't fully appreciate it at the time.

Julia Tugenhat wrote an excellent book called, "What children and young people can tell us about divorce and separation".

She didn't get cooperation from the authorities when finding children willing to speak about heir experiences but still managed to find a reasonable number of children to allow her to make an assessment. Amongst the twenty or so she got to know, the most telling examples I think were the proportion who said things like, "I'm not bothered about my dad", and yet when she got to look deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and yet felt the need to put on a brave face all the time, and certainly not upset their mothers.


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## grahamg (Sep 7, 2022)

palides2021 said:


> I am not sure what your message is about in this thread. I feel the pain of separation with your daughter couched by many words. Here, you mention that your daughter has condemned you ("I hate you..."). Those were harsh words she said to you. Probably in anger. Those are precious moments between you and her that, frankly IMO, should not be aired in public. When a child feels that way about a parent, whether they are male or female, something is lacking in their life. Did you try and resolve these issues with her? You don't need to answer. Just giving you thoughts to reflect upon.


I'll probably come back to you in a private message if that is okay, (in order to try to avoid complicating the thread further here, if you see what I mean?).


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## Gary O' (Sep 7, 2022)

Yeah, we've all got our baggage

Loved my folks

Dad could be a bit blunt
*'You shouldn't be here' *I found rather endearing

Most parents give it their best shot
Some never had the right ammo in the first place
Some have a propensity for self-unflicked wounds 
Some run


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## palides2021 (Sep 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I'll probably come back to you in a private message if that is okay, (in order to try to avoid complicating the thread further here, if you see what I mean?).


No worries.


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## helenbacque (Sep 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You are right in one sense but not in another.
> 
> I've heard it said that although family courts may or may not assist in helping fathers/mothers stay in contact with their children, one thing they can certainly do is destroy relationships between parents and their children, (or help those destroying said relationships).


We are all entitled to our own opinions.  If assigning blame for the situation to the court system brings you joy and contentment, go for it.


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## grahamg (Sep 8, 2022)

helenbacque said:


> We are all entitled to our own opinions.  If assigning blame for the situation to the court system brings you joy and contentment, go for it.


You mention my "assigning blame,...... to the court system, etc., etc.,".

If you'd attended a meeting in Portcullis House, opposite our Houses of Parliament in London about twenty years ago, hosted by the then leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, and listened to the views of all those people attending from any of the more responsible parents and grandparents group, then you might understand the level of "assigning blame" prevalent amongst all those present. This was so much so that the one government appointed body which everyone wished to express their displeasure concerning, were not invited to the meeting, (known by the acronym CAFCASS).

That's how strongly they all felt about the way things were done here twenty years ago, and as far as I'm aware things have not improved since, (the law under which they carry out their hasn't changed either, hence my desire to get folks here to consider whether they are content that decent parents in the UK are denied statutory rights, (my question being ignored here suggests to me folks are not bothered unfortunately).


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## grahamg (Sep 8, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, we've all got our baggage
> Loved my folks, Dad could be a bit blunt
> *'You shouldn't be here' *I found rather endearing
> Most parents give it their best shot
> ...


Here is some research or information connected to the thread topic:
https://www.unicef.org/child-rights-convention/convention-text-childrens-version

Quote:
"Children can choose their own thoughts, opinions and religion, but this _should_ not stop other people from enjoying their _rights_. _Parents_ can guide children,...."


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## grahamg (Sep 10, 2022)

Knight said:


> A lot of examples & distress about your adult daughter not wanting to acknowledge you but nothing about your right to file for rights under the system in place in the UK
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/looking-after-children-divorce/apply-for-court-order


You may find the following site informative concerning the UK family law situation, included the experiences of some fathers have reported:
https://www.separateddads.co.uk/what-goes-into-cafcass-family-report.html

(P.S. If you can bear in mind the fact that none of the fathers/parents reporting their experiences have any statutory rights here this may explain how those charged by the state to intervene in their family's lives were able to act as they did)

Quote 1.:
"I have just had my Remote Directions Hearing to say it went bad is a understatement I found out the wife had applied for a non molestation order 6 days before the hearing? "Convenient" I thought as she never got her scott schedule done in time for the hearing either? I mentioned it to the Judge but she never batted a eyelid? I was so unprepared for her allegations & also the Cafcass caseworker safeguarding report no mention of what I said? Just mostly damaging about me nearly the same as what my wife had said? I have found out since the hearing I was supposed to get the Cafcass report but I never received it? It's as if I was a piece of meat/lamb to the slaughter. I lost it had a rant the told the Judge I was sorry, left the phone hearing before I should have. I felt I had complied with everything that was asked of me in the Court order in time for the hearing but I was let down by Cafcass with the report, & the District Judge did not seem to care that my wife had not complied with the Scott Schedule, or School reports before the hearing as the Court order requested? Hence what was the point of a direction hearing? It was always going to go to a fact finding hearing."

Quote 2.:
"Went to court Cafcass recommended supervised contact where my parents would supervise, but in a interim but before we went in court my exes solicitor said her client my ex didn't wat this and therefore its not been allowed."

Quote 3.:
"I separated from my wife in February 2017. 2 months later she made a criminal complaint against me. She alleged I had subjected her too controlling and coercive behavior and had assaulted her. Fortunately I was able to provide the police with a lot of material to undermine her complaint and I was not prosecuted. At the time of our separation, our son was 9 years old and he was angry with his mum for bringing the marriage to an end. I successfully applied to the court for a child arrangement order and was able to see my son regularly for a period of 2 years. Sadly now my son has turned against and has stated he no longer wishes to see me He has told the Cafcass advisor untruths and stated he no longer wishes to see me. This is a very hard pill to swallow as both myself, family and friends I've shown him a great deal of love and support. I'm of the view that is Mum I slowly turned him against me. Friends and family tell me to walk away and leave them to it as I could not have done any more. Unable to do this as I am his father and I still love him daily and remember the great times we had together prior to recent events unfolding. I I intend to address the court personally with a rational heartfelt honest statement when I attend letter this month. I suppose what I'm asking, as any other fathers had similar experiences, what advice can they offer and will the judges listen to me?"

Quote 4.:
"Hello, I’m wondering if anyone can help. My partner has had an ongoing case to see his child for almost three years now. He should have received photos, letters, be allowed to send birthday and Christmas presents etc for the last 18 months or so, however his ex hasn’t done any or this or allowed him to send any. His court hearing for his child arrangements order has now been postponed TWICE as a result of CAFCASS not filing their report in time, on both occasions. This has delayed contact with his child by 7 months. He has attended a DAPP course, as requested by the court and been present at all fact finding hearings etc, paid his child maintenance and paid for solicitor fees on top of this- costing nearly £15,000 up to present. We are just looking for some advice regarding where we stand? He hasn’t had any contact with his child since they were 2, they are now nearly 5 and therefore it’s unlikely they will remember him. CAFCASS have made this process very frustrating and he is really down because of it. Can anyone offer any advice?"

Quote 5.:
"It amazes me that mothers complain about the lack of contact fathers have with their respective children, only in most of these cases it's the mothers that prevent the contact. Cafcass what a joke. I found most of these Reporters have been adopted or been in care themselves - so their judgement is tainted by their own experiences or viewpoint on parents - thus many men not seeing their children. Hopefully the British government will understand that gang violence is in majority of cases, due to a lack father's contact with their respective children."


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## grahamg (Sep 10, 2022)

More similar experiences reported here:

Quote 6.:
"CAFCASS came to my house to see me and my children and it was the last time I saw my children. We did an Easter egg hunt, made Easter eggs, went bowling in the afternoon but the children had miserable faces, my ex wife had kept them up all night. They were irritable and are very negative towards me (parental alienation?). Age 11. CAFCASS recommend it is not appropriate for me to be near them. I intimidate them, bad influence and not happy. I feel like I invited a wrecking ball into our home. We played some word games, CAFCASS officer reported I was belittling her. I had a timetable of activities, Cafcass reported I was too rigid and structured. Children bit off, thats because they are scared of me. There wasn't a single positive. Maybe I should have just gone down to MacDonalds and sat outside smoking weed. I love my children and 10 years of struggling to get contact (=10 years being denied it), constant broken court orders and now they've gone. Its heartbreaking."

Quote 7.:
"I first took my ex to court in November 2017 for contact as she had stopped it yet again I got granted contact but had to go back as disagreement on travel arrangements. I met my new partner and I started staying at hers on a weekend also so I was close so I didn’t have to travel when I had my contact anyways the children’s mother didn’t like the idea of me being with someone else and made lies up in court stating I wasn’t consistent enough and it was effecting the children’s education but a couple weeks prior I spoke to my child’s head teacher to ask how she was doing in school etc and was told she was a very hard worker very pleasant always asking for more work to do and wished they had more children like her but cause the mother told the courts that the education was falling due to my contact or my consistency and asked the courts to stop my contact. So the clerk asked the woman from cafcass as she said that there are no safeguarding issues at all however since the children’s mother has stated that the education has fallen I would recommend that the contact should be stopped... is there anything I can do about this as my ex is a very convincing compulsive liar."

Quote 8.:
"Hi, My soon to be ex wife is making my time with my children very difficult, she pre arranges what and where I should take them prior to my collecting, she calls them many times when in my care saying she misses them which makes them feel guilty about being with me. she tries to make me feel like a hated person when I'm collecting my boys from there school. its becoming unbearable, I have a court arrangement in place. I have ad to block her emails and her mobile but have left her landline so she can contact the boys when I have them. she seems to have this control issue and demands I do this and that with words like immediately! I love my children very much and I'm so worried she is using them to hurt me."

Quote 9.:
"Can a CAFCASS report be challenged? When I met with CAFCASS I said to my solicitor that I felt that they had already sided with my ex-wife and I have just received the report, most of what I spoke about seems to have been omitted. There seems to be lots of mention of the parents being hostile to one another (which is bad for our son), yet all of this has been generated by my ex. There has been no mention of the threats, verbal abuse that I've been on the receiving end of, the manipulating and controlling behaviour and generally putting our son in the middle of thing that are for adults. I've tried to make things as amicable as possible, paying for nursery costs when I wasn't obliged to do so, and even a holiday on one occasion.I filed to the court for 50:50, she counter filed a month later that I have our son every other weekend and one night for dinner. CAFCASS' one sided report is now supporting her, which makes me think what have I done!?"


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## Knight (Sep 10, 2022)

Appreciate the examples. Obviously the system in the UK is trying to make sure it's the children that benefit. This site seems like the government is spending resources to get it right.
https://www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-up...ther/cafcass-positive-co-parenting-programme/

As has been pointed out one side is represented or better said without the full story from both sides it's not fair to judge.


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## Remy (Sep 10, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Its hard to be absolutely certain, but anyone who has had a settled home life knows how much our parents did for us, even if we didn't fully appreciate it at the time.
> 
> Julia Tugenhat wrote an excellent book called, "What children and young people can tell us about divorce and separation".
> 
> She didn't get cooperation from the authorities when finding children willing to speak about heir experiences but still managed to find a reasonable number of children to allow her to make an assessment. Amongst the twenty or so she got to know, the most telling examples I think were the proportion who said things like, "I'm not bothered about my dad", and yet when she got to look deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and yet felt the need to put on a brave face all the time, and certainly not upset their mothers.


Children or even young adults are not who should be studied. They are possibly too controlled or essentially brain washed at that age. They should talk to people in their 30's, 40's, 50's 60's and beyond who had difficult and more childhoods. It can take years to come out of the FOG (fear obligation guilt) and process what happened to them. People like me, with an essentially non existent resiliency score had no idea what had and was happening to them. It's taken me years to process it. Not one person told me the childhood I was living was purely insane. 

I can look back now and I'm aware that my bio-dad probably wasn't much when it came to us kids. He didn't make any effort to see us when my mother cut us off from him. Am I 100% sure he didn't and how do I know this? Because I would have known about it. My mother never kept anything negative from me. She would have probably screamed it at me so I know he didn't try.


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## grahamg (Sep 11, 2022)

Remy said:


> Children or even young adults are not who should be studied. They are possibly too controlled or essentially brain washed at that age. They should talk to people in their 30's, 40's, 50's 60's and beyond who had difficult and more childhoods. It can take years to come out of the FOG (fear obligation guilt) and process what happened to them. People like me, with an essentially non existent resiliency score had no idea what had and was happening to them. It's taken me years to process it. Not one person told me the childhood I was living was purely insane.
> 
> I can look back now and I'm aware that my bio-dad probably wasn't much when it came to us kids. He didn't make any effort to see us when my mother cut us off from him. Am I 100% sure he didn't and how do I know this? Because I would have known about it. My mother never kept anything negative from me. She would have probably screamed it at me so I know he didn't try.


I wouldn't choose to criticise Julia Tugenhat for her study, (if that was your meaning?), not least because children and young people are being "studied" in every report produced by those Cafcass officials, (calling themselves "reporters" no less!).
I would agree though, that shoving the children, ("and their views"), forward is a process with very negative consequences in most cases I'd argue. As I've said previously on this thread, doing so denies them, (and their fathers/non-resident parents), the right to a private life. You shouldn't as an "outsider" be able to ask a child "Do you love your parent", but they do this without any compunction.


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## grahamg (Sep 11, 2022)

Knight said:


> Appreciate the examples. Obviously the system in the UK is trying to make sure it's the children that benefit. This site seems like the government is spending resources to get it right.
> https://www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-up...ther/cafcass-positive-co-parenting-programme/
> As has been pointed out one side is represented or better said without the full story from both sides it's not fair to judge.


The reputation of the organisation you have faith in could not have been lower twenty years ago, as I've said.

I object to its role, as described in my post above this one, and feel it is unreasonable to suggest you have any right to hear all sides of every argument about someone's private life, just as it is unreasonable for those Cafcass officers to do so in my view.

An assumption is needed, (a legal assumption I'm referring to), "UNLESS" this western society we all enjoy is so convinced even decent non resident parents (however this is defined, I'd suggest it should be quite tightly defined), does not want to see any meaningful statutory rights for non-resident parents, (the question you answer in my view by not answering!)?


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## Knight (Sep 11, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The reputation of the organisation you have faith in could not have been lower twenty years ago, as I've said.
> 
> I object to its role, as described in my post above this one, and feel it is unreasonable to suggest you have any right to hear all sides of every argument about someone's private life, just as it is unreasonable for those Cafcass officers to do so in my view.
> 
> An assumption is needed, (a legal assumption I'm referring to), "UNLESS" this western society we all enjoy is so convinced even decent non resident parents (however this is defined, I'd suggest it should be quite tightly defined), does not want to see any meaningful statutory rights for non-resident parents, (the question you answer in my view by not answering!)?


No system is 100% accurate, but the fact that a system is needed to try to suit the needs of a child is in the right direction. This most recent post you claim wasn't fair 20 years ago. I have no way of knowing other than your posts how decisions were made in your case. 

What I do know from your posts is that your marriage was to a woman that wanted a child. You married her, supplied the sperm to make that happen. 

Other posts. I think you posted that she was unfaithful & left you for another man. Toss in posts about difficulties with other employees. Combine that with a middle aged daughter that doesn't want to communicate with you & a rocky picture of you begins to emerge.  

You could be the nicest guy on earth but for whatever reason the system that is in place to look out for the best interest of children didn't favor you. Were they wrong? Possibly. No way for me to know since all I know is from your posts that IMO don't paint a good picture.


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## grahamg (Sep 11, 2022)

Knight said:


> No system is 100% accurate, but the fact that a system is needed to try to suit the needs of a child is in the right direction. (Break)
> You could be the nicest guy on earth but for whatever reason the system that is in place to look out for the best interest of children didn't favor you. Were they wrong? Possibly. No way for me to know since all I know is from your posts that IMO don't paint a good picture.


You continue to refuse to answer whether you wish to deny any parent statutory rights.

You continue to assert faith in a system you say tries to suit the needs of the child.

Your assumption "I may be in the wrong" is my reason why decent parents need some statutory rights to protect their relationships with their children from people who think as you do, (i.e. "They have the right to judge others concerning their children, even where there are no allegations of harm").

A Canadian lawyer called Goldwater stated thirty years ago that: "There is a need for privacy in close relationships", but you disregard their view, thinking you know better.

Whatever you say to me concerning my daughter you could just as easily say to everyone of the fathers I've quoted on this thread, and you would not have the slightest qualms about doing so, (adding insult to injury if you're wrong, as you will be in most cases).

Break as many relationships between decent dads/parents as you and others like, you wont be there to puck up the pieces, you wont do any of the things those people damaged by your views and the views of those like you being our government's policy, but to anyone who has any doubts about the whole system I declare you dont have the right to foist this con on the rest of society, (and one day this realisation will or may dawn on policy makers).


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## JaniceM (Sep 11, 2022)

Regardless of what anyone says, you'll come up with something negative.
If you don't want opinions, why ask?


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## grahamg (Sep 11, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Regardless of what anyone says, you'll come up with something negative.
> If you don't want opinions, why ask?


Regardless of what I might say, no one wishes to state they are unconcerned there are no statutory rights for decent parents/dads/mums/grandparents in the UK.
If I cant get anyone to respond to something like this, why should I be criticised for raising it as an issue quite often, (even whilst I acknowledge that in democratic countries people not caring about the lack of statutory parental rights, means there will never be any enacted)?


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## Remy (Sep 11, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I wouldn't choose to criticise Julia Tugenhat for her study, (if that was your meaning?), not least because children and young people are being "studied" in every report produced by those Cafcass officials, (calling themselves "reporters" no less!).
> I would agree though, that shoving the children, ("and their views"), forward is a process with very negative consequences in most cases I'd argue. As I've said previously on this thread, doing so denies them, (and their fathers/non-resident parents), the right to a private life. You shouldn't as an "outsider" be able to ask a child "Do you love your parent", but they do this without any compunction.


I actually don't know who this woman is. What I do know is that had I been asked questions as a child about what I was experiencing, I would not have been able to tell them the truth. Either out of fear or I had yet to process that truth.


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## grahamg (Sep 11, 2022)

Remy said:


> I actually don't know who this woman is. What I do know is that had I been asked questions as a child about what I was experiencing, I would not have been able to tell them the truth. Either out of fear or I had yet to process that truth.


Yes, Julia Tugendhat certainly came across that situation, very much so, and as you say it took a lot of building up trust in order to learn anything of the true feelings of those children separated from their dads/non-resident parents, (most crucial of all was those children knowing Julia would never allow the child's mother/resident parent, know if the child said anything that might be seen as disloyal by their child).

One of the most poignant findings Julia Tugendhat came up with was those teenage boys she managed to speak to (mainly boys as I remember it was),  who said, "I'm not bothered about my dad", but when she dug deeper she discovered just how "bothered" they really were, and all they were managing to do was put a brave face on things, (perhaps they were exhorted to "move on", whilst being told their dads didn't care about them). 

https://www.amazon.com.br/What-Teenagers-About-Divorce-Step-families/dp/0747504768

Quote:
"In Britain the divorce rate continues to rise. There are one and a half million children living with a separated or divorced parent and over a million living in a stepfamily. The author interviewed 30 teenagers from different backgrounds and learned about their feelings and experiences. The book aims to be of interest to anyone involved in stepfamily life, including teachers, social workers and parents as well as young people from broken homes who may learn something helpful from the experiences of others."


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## Remy (Sep 12, 2022)

@grahamg having a dad really does matter. No matter what someone may say at the time. I miss not having a dad and my enabler stepfather, while a provider, was never a dad in the true sense. I also miss that I didn't have grandparents or extended family. These relationships matter as children. My mother could not have cared less either.


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## Knight (Sep 12, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You continue to refuse to answer whether you wish to deny any parent statutory rights.
> 
> You continue to assert faith in a system you say tries to suit the needs of the child.


Yesterday was a day out for us, otherwise I would have responded then. 

I believe parents have rights & from your posts you were given those rights. 

I Googled this.
do parents have statutory rights in the UK

There are a lot of sites, this is just one.
https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities

Not liking the outcome is what you post about. Me as a reader of your posts I have no way of knowing if you followed your responsibilities. What I do know from your posts is that your daughter in her mid 30's now doesn't want you in her life. The why of that could only be answered by your daughter. And that isn't going to happen.  

I think by your posts that you are a good person. Yes I posted  I think the system is in place for the child. You haven't posted about how you carried out your responsibilities on a daily basis.


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## grahamg (Sep 12, 2022)

Knight said:


> Yesterday was a day out for us, otherwise I would have responded then. I believe parents have rights & from your posts you were given those rights.
> I Googled this. do parents have statutory rights in the UK There are a lot of sites, this is just one. https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-responsibilities
> Not liking the outcome is what you post about. Me as a reader of your posts I have no way of knowing if you followed your responsibilities. What I do know from your posts is that your daughter in her mid 30's now doesn't want you in her life. The why of that could only be answered by your daughter. And that isn't going to happen.
> I think by your posts that you are a good person. Yes I posted  I think the system is in place for the child. You haven't posted about how you carried out your responsibilities on a daily basis.


Your argument so far as to whether there are "statutory parental rights" in the UK is not really with whatever I say about this but what Vanessa Pupavac, a professor from Nottingham University has had to say in a paper she published twenty or so years ago about "The Infantilisation of Citizenship in the UK".
We'll just waste each others time if we attempt to argue about this ("obviously") as I know what the professor had to say, and no one will tell me she didn't, and she stated, "The lack of parental rights in the UK contravenes human rights legislation" by way of a confirmation of her view, and every government website I've read "dresses up responsibilities of parents as rights", (such as the "right" to send your child to a school to be educated,,,,,,, if that was a right in the sense I understand the term, and of course Professor Pupavac understands the term, then presumably a parent could freely decide not to educate their child, whist in reality they'd be imprisoned if their child wasn't sent to school, so its an "obligation not a right").

Forum member might wish to feel themselves lucky that my day has improved because I was about to start a thread under the title, "I'm sorry to all excluded fathers/mothers and grandparents have no statutory rights in the UK, (and your fellow forum members are content those in authority deny you statutory parental rights)."

BTW the right "to apply to a court to seek the courts support over contact with your child/grandchild" is not a "real statutory right" for anyone of us, not least because contact with a parent/grandparent is described as "the child's right, not the parent/grandparents right", (so this "load of double talk should take in no one, and certainly not us worldly wise and pertinent observers of family law!").


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## Pepper (Sep 12, 2022)

"Forum member might wish to feel themselves lucky that my day has improved because I was about to start a thread under the title, "I'm sorry to all excluded fathers/mothers and grandparents have no statutory rights in the UK, (*and your fellow forum members are content those in authority deny you statutory parental rights*)." "

How dare you be so cavalier as to quote forum members as to what was never said?  Maybe it's just your rights we couldn't care less about.  Only yours.  We support everyone else's.


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## Knight (Sep 12, 2022)

What Teenagers Can Tell Us About Divorce and Step-families Capa comum – 29 janeiro 1990
Edição Inglês  por Julia Tugendhat (Autor)

In Britain the divorce rate continues to rise. There are one and a half million children living with a separated or divorced parent and over a million living in a stepfamily. The author interviewed 30 teenagers from different backgrounds and learned about their feelings and experiences. 

https://www.amazon.com.br/What-Teenagers-About-Divorce-Step-families/dp/0747504768

It's almost to funny. Citing an article from over 32 years ago interviewing 30 teenagers. But if it works for you I think I understand now why you continue.


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> What Teenagers Can Tell Us About Divorce and Step-families
> In Britain the divorce rate continues to rise. There are one and a half million children living with a separated or divorced parent and over a million living in a stepfamily. The author interviewed 30 teenagers from different backgrounds and learned about their feelings and experiences.
> https://www.amazon.com.br/What-Teenagers-About-Divorce-Step-families/dp/0747504768
> It's almost to funny. Citing an article from over 32 years ago interviewing 30 teenagers. But if it works for you I think I understand now why you continue.


Although you're amused by Julia Tugenhat's work you are in error in a number of regards, (the first of them being describing her work as an article when it was in fact a book).
Secondly the situation in Britain appears to have only got worse in the last thirty years whilst decent parents/grandparents have been denied statutory parental rights, (a policy I'll continue to assert you support, regardless of what anyone else on the forum might think, until you assert otherwise).
Another point to remember about Julia Tugenhat's work is that she was unable to get the cooperation of those in authority to undertake her investigation, (putting it another way, there appears to be suppression of people getting to know what is going on in this country, hence a "paper/book" written thirty years ago may be all that is available).

Moving on, I'm not sure if the author of the book I'm quoting, (who I believe is a qualified barrister/lawyer if memory serves me correctly), is the same lady as the one quoted in the following link concerning a debate in the House of Lords about human embryos, (the upper house of our parliament, with an advisory and revising role in our government drawing up legislation, and some other powers too):
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200607/jtselect/jtembryos/169/7061306.htm

Quote:
*"Q417  Bishop of St Albans:* Can you say why you think the rights of parents should always trump the rights of a putative child in terms of the kind of parents they might have?

  Lady Tugendhat: I am sorry. I do not completely understand where that question is coming from.

*  Q418  Bishop of St Albans:* If you are deciding that a child does not necessarily need a father, you are making an assumption about the right of that child not to have a father. Do you think that in all circumstances the rights of parents should always trump the rights of a child to have a mother and a father, for instance?

  Lady Tugendhat: It would perhaps be ideal if every child could have a good mother and father but I think it is really important that people who want to be parents, whether it is adoption or fostering or through infertility treatment, are given the chance to be parents, even if there is not a father involved. I think good parenting is good for children."


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> "Forum member might wish to feel themselves lucky that my day has improved because I was about to start a thread under the title, "I'm sorry to all excluded fathers/mothers and grandparents have no statutory rights in the UK, (*and your fellow forum members are content those in authority deny you statutory parental rights*)." "
> How dare you be so cavalier as to quote forum members as to what was never said?  Maybe it's just your rights we couldn't care less about.  Only yours.  We support everyone else's.


Good, you support everyone else's rights, (or indicate this is the case generally,...., hope I'm not misinterpreting you there?).

"How dare I" you say, (make assumptions about the views of others),..., well, "are you aware" that in this county if someone chooses to remain silent when questioned our courts may interpret their refusing to answer a question as indicating whatever it was the questioner thought they were guilty of when asked to respond, (hence I'm following established legal precedent here, "like it or not!"  )


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## Pepper (Sep 13, 2022)

grahamg said:


> "How dare I" you say, (make assumptions about the views of others),..., well, "are you aware" that in this county if someone chooses to remain silent when questioned our courts may interpret their refusing to answer a question as indicating whatever it was the questioner thought they were guilty of when asked to respond, (hence I'm following established legal precedent here, "like it or not!"  )


You're not in your country when you post here so your rules don't apply.  This is an international forum.

The U.S. Supreme Court has decided precedent doesn't matter here anymore anyway.  How dare you demand.............in your court case was it noted how demanding you are?


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You're not in your country when you post here so your rules don't apply.  This is an international forum.
> The U.S. Supreme Court has decided precedent doesn't matter here anymore anyway.  How dare you demand.............in your court case was it noted how demanding you are?


If you're certain US supreme court rules dont allow the same assumptions our legal system has brought in concerning those refusing to answer questions, (okay if you are, though the underlying principle which our courts apply when making their assumption remains the same in any event).

Can I ask you a personal question, (obviously no need whatever to answer such a question, and no assumptions will be made if you dont),...., I'd like to know whether, (in the words of my own mother), "Have you ever found a happy medium in your relationships"?

(My mother thinking this a desirable thing, whilst my dad didn't believe in it so much btw).


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## Pepper (Sep 13, 2022)

"Have you ever found a happy medium in your relationships"?
Yes.


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## Knight (Sep 13, 2022)

@grahamg
Quote
"Q418 Bishop of St Albans: If you are deciding that a child does not necessarily need a father, you are making an assumption about the right of that child not to have a father. Do you think that in all circumstances the rights of parents should always trump the rights of a child to have a mother and a father, for instance?

Lady Tugendhat: It would perhaps be ideal if every child could have a good mother and father but I think it is really important that people who want to be parents, whether it is adoption or fostering or through infertility treatment, are given the chance to be parents, even if there is not a father involved. I think good parenting is good for children."


Seems like Lady Tugendhat leaves out natural procreation but does agree good parenting is good for children. Obviously the system that  you complain about found in favor of the mother as being good for her daughter and. I'm not sure but I think in some of your posts you mentioned having visited your daughter & maybe even had her stay with you. So you did get the chance to bond but for whatever reason you didn't & continue to blame the system.


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> @grahamgQuote: "Q418 Bishop of St Albans: If you are deciding that a child does not necessarily need a father, you are making an assumption about the right of that child not to have a father. Do you think that in all circumstances the rights of parents should always trump the rights of a child to have a mother and a father, for instance?
> Lady Tugendhat: It would perhaps be ideal if every child could have a good mother and father but I think it is really important that people who want to be parents, whether it is adoption or fostering or through infertility treatment, are given the chance to be parents, even if there is not a father involved. I think good parenting is good for children." Knight wrote: "Seems like Lady Tugendhat leaves out natural procreation but does agree good parenting is good for children."


Lady Tugendhat was involved in a debate about the way human embryo's using invitro fertilisation should be handled, "hence could obviously not refer to other means of procreation in that debate".


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> @grahamg
> Quote
> "Obviously the system that  you complain about found in favor of the mother as being good for her daughter and. I'm not sure but I think in some of your posts you mentioned having visited your daughter & maybe even had her stay with you. So you did get the chance to bond but for whatever reason you didn't & continue to blame the system."


Nice try,............., the world like a trier!!!!!! 

Instead of "the system that you complain about", lets at least agree it is a "UK family law system so many complain about", as I've proved on this thread!


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> "Have you ever found a happy medium in your relationships"?
> Yes.


We'll take your word on that one,....,  no need "to hear the other sides version at all"!


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## JaniceM (Sep 13, 2022)

You are one negative lil individual, aren't you.


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## grahamg (Sep 13, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> You are one negative lil individual, aren't you.


Are you darn sure about dat madam!(?).


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## Knight (Sep 13, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Lady Tugendhat was involved in a debate about the way human embryo's using invitro fertilisation should be handled, "hence could obviously not refer to other means of procreation in that debate".


 Using your quoted sections I don't see using invitro fertilization. 

Then there is from my post.
Quote
"Obviously the system that you complain about"

What part of system did I exclude when the posts are about UK family law SYSTEM

You missed explaining whether or not you were granted rights to visit & share responsibility in raising your daughter. Were You granted that right?


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## grahamg (Sep 14, 2022)

Knight said:


> Using your quoted sections I don't see using invitro fertilization.


This is the section from my post above where the House of Lords debate took place, (I hope this makes it clear why this Lady Tugendhat (the lady I hope is the same Julia Tugendhat, author of the book we've been discussing):

Grahamg quote:
"Moving on, I'm not sure if the author of the book I'm quoting, (who I believe is a qualified barrister/lawyer if memory serves me correctly), is the same lady as the one quoted in the following link concerning a debate in the House of Lords *about human embryos* , (the upper house of our parliament, with an advisory and revising role in our government drawing up legislation, and some other powers too):
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200607/jtselect/jtembryos/169/7061306.htm


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