# This is insanity plus



## Warrigal (Aug 26, 2014)

A nine year old girl being instructed in the use of an UZI submachine gun. What the hell for? Is this a beginner's weapon ?



> *9yo girl accidentally shoots and kills Arizona gun instructor with Uzi*
> 
> Wed 27 Aug 2014
> 
> ...


I'm so glad this is a rarity. I'd hate to think that it was an everyday experience.

Additional information:



> Last Stop, which includes a restaurant, bar and RV park, has a “Burgers and Bullets” program that offers customers lunch with a trip to the range, where they can choose from among more than 20 automatic weapons to shoot, according to its website.



Burgers and bullets! Family fun for all, no doubt.


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## JustQuinn (Aug 27, 2014)

what  sort of instructor instructs a  9  year old  girl on how to use a  sub machine  gun?  why  was she  even there?


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Instead of fries with your burger you can have bullets.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Families that shoot together stay together...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

... side by side in the same cemetery? :nonchalance:


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Why learn to shoot a sub-machine gun?
what is US preparing for?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Don't you realize that they are coming for us?  Haven't you heard about the one world government that will take away all of your rights?


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

What rights?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Your constitutional right to arm yourself to the teeth is probably the most important one for many...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't think Britain has a written constitution. It does have a Magna Carta though.



> Constitutions organise, distribute and regulate state power. They set out the structure of the state, the major state institutions, and the principles governing their relations with each other and with the state’s citizens. Britain is unusual in that it has an ‘unwritten’ constitution: unlike the great majority of countries there is no single legal document which sets out in one place the fundamental laws outlining how the state works.  Britain’s lack of a ‘written’ constitution can be explained by its history.  In other countries, many of whom have experienced revolution or regime change, it has been necessary to start from scratch or begin from first principles, constructing new state institutions and defining in detail their relations with each other and their citizens. By contrast, the British Constitution has evolved over a long period of time, reflecting the relative stability of the British polity. It has never been thought necessary to consolidate the basic building blocks of this order in Britain. What Britain has instead is an accumulation of various statutes, conventions, judicial decisions and treaties which collectively can be referred to as the British Constitution. It is thus more accurate to refer to Britain’s constitution as an ‘uncodified’ constitution, rather than an ‘unwritten’ one.
> 
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/whatis/uk-constitution


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Maybe it is about time that you did...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

We do not have a written constitution.
as for the Magna Carta; it took some power away from the king; but gave it to the nobles instead.
no room for the peasants.....
but we have been around rather longer than the rest of you; most people were not taught to read and write back then....especially in Latin.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

That should have been that they did, but how independent are you as a Commonwealth nation?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Well, as for you Brits, it seems that you lost your empire for not keeping up with the times...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

As independant as any relatively small nation.....that at times tries to be more important than it really is...
sometimes we like to pretend that we still have an empire; I think we ought to leave all that stuff to our larger 'special friend'


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Very honest reply, and that is why it was stupid of us to have split from you as you could still be bearing the brunt of the world's problems...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Well, as for you Brits, it seems that you lost your empire for not keeping up with the times...


Ralphy, you are such a troll. Most of the British Empire was granted independence/self government when ready.  That is why the former colonies are still on good terms with the Mother Country.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Trouble is; a lot of it is cause and effect...
Look at the way we; in the broadest sense of the word; carved up the ME; just drawing lines on a map.
look at the way Israel was created; mainly because of guilt over the holocaust.
it is all coming back to bite us all..
Add to that, the African nations that we gave Independance to, that are now corrupt; even India fell apart into two, then three states....

If the Spanish had won, back in the 16th century; would anything be very different? 
Just a ponder...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm glad we didn't end up French. Their former colonies didn't do so well.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Sorry; have wandered completely off topic...sorry, Warri.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Sorry; have wandered completely off topic...sorry, Warri.



No worries, Vivjen. It was actually Ralphy deliberately laying a false trail to keep the discussion away from gun lunacy.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Would anything be different?  Knowing how they behaved during the age of exploration, probably not...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

No, no, Dame, just following the trail whatever turns it may take...


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## Justme (Aug 27, 2014)

The US is completely CRAZY!


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

:iagree: You know that, Justme, and I know that but they don't know that. It is our job to point it out.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes, Justme; but again, that is a generalisation, just as Uk has been generalised in other topics.
some parts of US are very strange....but not all....I hope and believe!
surely that is why we are here; to be able to debate and try and understand a different point of view; even if we don't agree with it!

I am a little philosophical this morning.....and no; I haven't been drinking.
So I will go away...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Just having some fun, Vivjen. 
I think Ralphy can take some ribbing. 
I suspect his tongue is firmly and permanently stuck in his cheek.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

It is nice to see some furriners like Vivjen understand and appreciate the us of the US...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

I am sure he can; which is why I join in!
but it makes me think; then my mind wanders off...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Vivjen have a drink and hang around a little longer...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Little early yet...even for me!


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Nearly my bedtime.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Just consider it an eye opener...


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## SifuPhil (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree with our rights to bear arms, but I draw the line at a 9-year-old using an Uzi. That's a bit _too_ much ... even if it _wasn't_ on full-auto.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

certainly regrettable, correct teaching technique would have placed the instructor/range officer behind the shooter, so the weapon could have been controlled by simply pushing the appropriate shoulder away from the no fire zone.
uzi's, H@K, Mac 10, Thomsons etc. in the US are not submachine guns, a submachine gun is a select fire weapon and tightly controlled by the government, available but must have a tax stamp from the BTAF. These are no different than any other carbine, but of course the name has implications. Young folk are taught to shoot in the US before the mind control people get to them, I was taught at the age of six in the Boy Scouts. 

Don't feel bad the commentator in a CNN broadcast got called out for the same mistake, and also the Head of the BATF in a news broadcast on Friday didn't even know the difference, categorizing them in all in the "evil gun" category.

Apparently this instructor had a tax stamp and from the news report instructed the girl to fire one shot then a burst. The UZI by definition is a automatic, but can be select fire (what lay people call full auto). The bolt is extremely heavy about 3-4 lbs. and the slamming of it back into the frame causes the recoil. The gun shoots a 9mm pistol round, not a high power rifle round. 

Several years ago a similar incident happened at the Knolls Hill Tennessee machine gun shoot. 

Yes people get to together and shoot machine guns (Nancy Pelosi, Barry Obama, and Michael Bloomberg were all sent personal invitations, with the entry fee waived, but refused to come, can't imagine why) God what a country.


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

Doesn't much bother me hearing about some gun goofball getting smoked.

Live by the gun, die by the gun.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes and the gun control crowd love a death they can exploit. , Some people live a little more on the edge. Can I borrow your SPF 85?


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## Justme (Aug 27, 2014)

America likes to think of itself as a civilised country, but its insane gun laws give the lie to that, imo!


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> Yes and the gun control crowd love a death they can exploit. , Some people live a little more on the edge. Can I borrow your SPF 85?



While the gun nut crowd exploits *every* death to push their pro-gun paranoia.

Always talking about how guns are safe in the hands of responsible gun owners, then something like this happens to dispel that myth.

Guns are dangerous & can cause death even in the hands of the most experienced user.


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

Justme said:


> America likes to think of itself as a civilised country, but its insane gun laws give the lie to that, imo!



Insane gun laws combined with a reverence for violence.

Bad combination.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

define civilized -- a lot those gun laws are being changed thank goodness
Chicago's law against gun carry was struck down-- unconstitutional --- crime rate down
Washington DC struck down for the same reason
California's ten day waiting period struck down for the same reason 
this time it is a grass roots movement that will change a lot
70 percent of hand gun purchases and CCW permits in last 6 months were women.

But then you don't have a constitution do you?


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

prescription drugs and swimming pools are responsible for more deaths than guns in the US

but then prescription drugs don't form gangs---  

if the gun didn't cause damage there wouldn't be an issue,  DAAAAA.


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> define civilized -- a lot those gun laws are being changed thank goodness
> Chicago's law against gun carry was struck down-- unconstitutional --- crime rate down
> Washington DC struck down for the same reason
> California's ten day waiting period struck down for the same reason
> ...



Of course, if it weren't for the insane number of guns in the US, the crime rates in places like Chicago, DC & California wouldn't be what they are to begin with, would they?

So, a good definition of civilized might be, a society where average citizens DON'T HAVE TO arm themselves to the teeth in order to protect themselves from other people who are armed to the teeth.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

We don't have a written constitution..... It has been around for a while.

We do have gun control....not perfect, I know. We need knife control....

BBC is interviewing the owner of the range concerned at the moment....a tragic accident.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

your argument doesn't wash,  people kill (murder, you have the two confused) not guns. criminals do not follow the law, a fact  over your head. 

an armed society is a polite society (civilized)  but then you don't have a constitution do you


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

I repeat; we DO have a constitution.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

insanity refers to a condition of animated things, generally human, not guns-- to imply that the gun numbers are insane implies an a priori knowledge on your part that is BS


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

apparently your constitution denies the basic right of every living thing --- self defense

I'll pass just as my ancestors did when they came here


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> prescription drugs and swimming pools are responsible for more deaths than guns in the US
> 
> but then prescription drugs don't form gangs---
> 
> if the gun didn't cause damage there wouldn't be an issue,  DAAAAA.



Strawman argument.

Unlike handguns, swimming pools & prescription drugs have primary purposes for something other than killing other people.

The handgun was designed with no other purpose in mind, other than to drive projectiles into flesh.

One can have a fatal accident walking down the stairs, but that doesn't make stairs a deadly weapon anymore than swimming pools or prescription drugs are deadly weapons.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

the MURDERING of people is illegal and guns don't do it only people-- and again criminals don't care.

the term deadly weapon is a value judgement on your part... I'll bet SifuPhil can do just as much damage to a person with a ball point pen in the eye as a gun.


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> insanity refers to a condition of animated things, generally human, not guns-- to imply that the gun numbers are insane implies an a priori knowledge on your part that is BS



As is your ability to reason, apparently.

The number of guns in this country represents a condition that is tantamount to insanity on the part of those who allow & support it.

That a little more within your grasp?


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> the MURDERING of people is illegal and guns don't do it only people-- and again criminals don't care.
> 
> the term deadly weapon is a value judgement on your part... I'll bet SifuPhil can do just as much damage to a person with a ball point pen in the eye as a gun.



But could he do it to a crowd of people from a distance of say, 50 yards away from them?

Tell me one other everyday item that can spray death into a crowd of humans from such a distance that it doesn't require actually getting close enough to them to even see their faces.

I'll wait.

Guns may not jump up & kill people by themselves, but they make the killing of people easier & more efficient than anything else known to man & in doing so, fascillitate a massive increase in the number of humans killed by other humans.

That is an irrefutable fact.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

guns are just sophisticated rock throwers, a step up from the one David used to kill (murder-state sanction execution). humans have been killing each other since time began. More people have been killed with arrows than will ever be killed with guns. 

dogs spray guns shoot. there is no massive killing--- you are hysterical. we are not talking out killing done by nation states.


If one bought into your insanity, everyone would be trusting everyone so much, no need for governments, laws, or court system (Hmmmm).  Back to the real world, the only trust the will occur on your so called civilized world will be at most a Nash Equilibrium. 

The only irrefutable fact is that there are no irrefutable facts.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 27, 2014)

When I first heard the story and thought the girl faced the instructor with the weapon in hand pointing at him. But when I heard the gun jumped in automatic mode it sounds right. One of the basic behaviors of automatic weapons or rapid firing is that each successive shot is higher because the gun kicks up which means the next shot and/or gun is higher itself.

I have no problems exposing kids to guns including teaching shooting and safety BUT this girl because of age & strength issues was still in the training wheel stage of guns. I don't even think the terrorists and warlords recruit til about 12-14 issuing semi/automatic weapons in which they seem to have no problem handling.

It's a tragic accident but my guess this instructor let kids shoot rapid fire guns before without incident.


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> guns are just sophisticated rock throwers, a step up from the one David used to kill (murder-state sanction execution). humans have been killing each other since time began. More people have been killed with arrows than will ever be killed with guns.
> 
> dogs spray guns shoot. there is no massive killing--- you are hysterical. we are not talking out killing done by nation states.
> 
> ...



Sophisticated rock throwers???

What a load!!!! :rofl:

How many times has a thrown rock eviscerated the inside of a person's skull???

If shooting a gun is so much like throwing a rock, why don't criminals save all that money on guns & bullets & just walk around with a bag of rocks???? 

:rofl:

Is this your idea of the modern day gangsta thug doing a drive by?...







Really, the drooler gun lover goofballs don't need to buy into anybody else's insanity.

They've got more than enough of their own.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

sub guns do not climb as this site would imply (or others) as the recoil comes from a pistol cartridge shot in a 9lb weapon. The weapon appears to climb to the shooter because they step back and which raises the shoulders, the shooter translates this into recoil. I would be glad to have you fire any of my select fire weapons, I'll even buy the bullets, but you have to come here '
From teaching a lot of defense and competitive 3 gun shooters, (from around the world) I think she had a two hand lock on the gun with stiff left arm and as she turned to ask the instructor what the hell is going on she swing the weapon into him.   The switch is on the right hand above the left thumb and could have been easily  hit with thumb. However on most uzi it is very stiff, I'm guessing she was having difficulty in pushing it forward when the instructor gave her the auto command-- looked and swung the gun towards him at the same time the thumb pushed the switch forward and it fired. the uzi also has a palm safety (they have 3 manual safeties) which means she would have had to have a very tight grip on the right hand for this sequence to have happened.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

I think David did put a hole in Golith's head. 

It doesn't mean criminals aren't going to use the latest technologies, after all they don't follow the law, something you keep overlooking in your cranialrectalmetamorphism.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 27, 2014)

I have no issues with teaching children the proper way to use guns and rifles.  In this case I don't think the girl should have be allowed to shoot that type of a weapon, it was poor judgment on the part of both her parents and the instructor.  The burgers and bullets thing seems a bit whack to me though, how about a normal shooting range with qualified instructors in your area.

From what I understand, this was the pistol version of the UZI, which would be harder to brace and control for anyone, compared to the rifle version, especially for a young girl that had no previous training.  I think the instructor should have been behind her also, just in case something went wrong, not next to her.

It's too bad the little girl will have to live with this hanging over her head for the rest of her life, for that she can thank her parents.  You don't have to be a genius to see that allowing your little girl to shoot an UZI like that, is not a smart idea.  Maybe a 22 rifle would have been a wiser choice.

 All the years of responsible owners and users not having a negative gun-related incident in their lifetimes, does not make headlines.  You don't hear of all those families over the years who grew up with guns in their homes, learned to use them, clean them and respect them.  When people save their own lives because a criminal was about to rape and kill them, but they used their gun for protection, that does not make the headlines. 

 That doesn't mean that there isn't a large segment of people in America who own and use guns in a responsible way.  The headlines are made when gangs and criminals shoot each other, or innocent victims,  and they will _always _get their weapons illegally off the streets regardless of how strict gun laws get.  And it is true that crime does go down in areas which allow concealed carry, and have relaxed gun laws.


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## Happyflowerlady (Aug 27, 2014)

When my children were young, we lived out in the country, and there were predators around, from small hawks (which would easily kill a chicken or a rabbit), all the way up to the bear and cougar that roamed the area. 
I taught my oldest son to shoot my rifle, which was only a single-shot .22; and the younger two kids were there and watched. 
When you live out in the country, there are times when you need a weapon to protect either yourself, or your livestock. 
I think that people should learn to handle a firearm, and that they should be carefully and properly trained; so that they know the dangers of a gun as well as how to use one.

I can't see any reason why a young child like this would be being taught to shoot with a weapon like she was shooting; and it was probably a very poor decision on the part of the instructor, as well as her parents, to allow this.


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## Ina (Aug 27, 2014)

The parents should have a legal obligation to get that poor child counselling. She is going to need it. :tapfoot:


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## MrJim (Aug 27, 2014)

Ina said:


> The parents should have a legal obligation to get that poor child counselling. She is going to need it. :tapfoot:



Yeah, I meant to mention that earlier.

Poor kid. Growing up not only with the knowledge that she killed somebody, but the image of him lying there on the ground by her feet with part of his skull blown away & blood & brains gushing out will likely be in her nightmares for decades.

Her parents need to have their heads knocked together a few times good & hard.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

all uzi are pistols with collapsible stocks, this one looks like it was removed. several legal questions will come up, making it a pistol from the carbine is illegal , (removal of stock or shortening the barrel) and whether this guy had a legal tax stamp for the select fire version   ---- just sayin


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Janessa said:


> This is doesn't look very civilized to me either ....3 policemen on 1 man in the UK. Also seems they are targeting blacks!
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/1324729/stop-and-search-code-of-conduct-lauched



It is more civilised to restrain a man than to shoot him. The man in the photo was white by the way.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> sub guns do not climb as this site would imply (or others) as the recoil comes from a pistol cartridge shot in a 9lb weapon. The weapon appears to climb to the shooter because they step back and which raises the shoulders, the shooter translates this into recoil. I would be glad to have you fire any of my select fire weapons, I'll even buy the bullets, but you have to come here '
> From teaching a lot of defense and competitive 3 gun shooters, (from around the world) I think she had a two hand lock on the gun with stiff left arm and as she turned to ask the instructor what the hell is going on she swing the weapon into him.   The switch is on the right hand above the left thumb and could have been easily  hit with thumb. However on most uzi it is very stiff, I'm guessing she was having difficulty in pushing it forward when the instructor gave her the auto command-- looked and swung the gun towards him at the same time the thumb pushed the switch forward and it fired. the uzi also has a palm safety (they have 3 manual safeties) which means she would have had to have a very tight grip on the right hand for this sequence to have happened.



Watch the video. She was a little girl unable to control what she had in her hands. It should never have been in her hands.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> sub guns do not climb as this site would imply (or others) as the recoil comes from a pistol cartridge shot in a 9lb weapon. The weapon appears to climb to the shooter because they step back and which raises the shoulders, the shooter translates this into recoil. I would be glad to have you fire any of my select fire weapons, I'll even buy the bullets, but you have to come here '
> From teaching a lot of defense and competitive 3 gun shooters, (from around the world) I think she had a two hand lock on the gun with stiff left arm and as she turned to ask the instructor what the hell is going on she swing the weapon into him.   The switch is on the right hand above the left thumb and could have been easily  hit with thumb. However on most uzi it is very stiff, I'm guessing she was having difficulty in pushing it forward when the instructor gave her the auto command-- looked and swung the gun towards him at the same time the thumb pushed the switch forward and it fired. the uzi also has a palm safety (they have 3 manual safeties) which means she would have had to have a very tight grip on the right hand for this sequence to have happened.



I see what you mean but the basic tendency, behavior or response of a human firing a semi auto/automatic weapon will make it rise. Opposite and equal reaction(force/effort trying to hold it down looses out to momentum which would carry it up) -her arm swung across her body and up. Her tight grip on the weapon would do that because that in a sense attaches her body to the weapon, doesn't control it but will probably follow it. With training yes you can control or get rid of those tendencies. 

I don't how much pre range training or briefing customers get on a rented weapon, especially if they ask but I got nervous the second he told her to adjust her stance. She seems pretty tall or had a lengthy body, long limbs don't have the power someone with shorter limbs would naturally have.  Maybe the instructor should be a little more to the rear of a shooter. Also with an automatic weapon maybe firing some blanks or one of those realistic simulators that act like a real gun would help. The military doesn't even progress that fast.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

> The military doesn't even progress that fast.



They're not out to make a buck from the customers and they know what they are doing.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2014)

don't think there was money involved, something between the relationship of the parents and the instructor. This was a demonstration not a lesson. (regrettably ) 

notice the weapon torques up to the left, the recoil in an uzi is about 10 ft/lbs. versa say  light caliber hunting rifle of the same weight at about 45 ft/lbs. the reciprocating mass of the heavy bolt does the conservation of mass and energy, actually resists the upward movement in that it would be much more if the bolt were not absorbing it. The climbing reported over and over, (this wives tale is really old and dates back to Thompson, and the prohibition) is due to the gangsters shooting and holding  the gun at hip level. As was noted earlier she is shooting it in a pistol configuration possibly, and the instructor has placed her in what is called a modified Weaver stance. This stance in a trained shooter even small framed and young can control handgun recoil in the 70 ft/lb range, (44 mag. 454 Casuall). (obviously she wasn't a trained shooter, but then that's why we are writing on this post).


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## JustQuinn (Aug 27, 2014)

Guns  kill more American children  than soldiers. I know this thread is about  a  child  killing an adult  but  I  still think this  fact is  relevant to the  debate  about  American gun  culture.
These  figures  include  murders  of  course, as well as  accidents.

http://www.juancole.com/2013/01/firearms-children-afghanistan.html


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## rkunsaw (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm a firm believer in teaching young people how to shoot and handle guns, but a 9 year old should be shooting 22s and not auto loaders either. A single shot, bolt action, or pump where each round has to be manually loaded is appropriate. Very few adult gun owners have ever shot an automatic weapon. I haven't. I do have a "Tommy Gun" but it is a semi-auto version.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Gun tourism is all the go in the USA



> *Gun tourism grows in popularity in recent years
> 
> *http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2024398892_apxgirlwithuzi.html


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Wish I had a photo of me with my pearl handled cap guns slung on my hips during my cowboy days...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

I had a Davey Crockett repeating cap rifle. 
I had to buy it myself out of my holiday spending money.
I had to buy my own rolls of caps too.

I think I was about 10 years old. Perhaps 9?
The appropriate gun for a kid in grade school.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Wow!  We could have played cowboys and furriners together!


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Davey Crockett wasn't a cowboy unless b'ars are considered to be cattle. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

My, my, you were really into it.  Did you have a coonskin hat?


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## MrJim (Aug 28, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> I'm a firm believer in teaching young people how to shoot and handle guns, but a 9 year old should be shooting 22s and not auto loaders either. A single shot, bolt action, or pump where each round has to be manually loaded is appropriate. Very few adult gun owners have ever shot an automatic weapon. I haven't. I do have a "Tommy Gun" but it is a semi-auto version.



Nothing wrong with that at all. We had .22 rifles & small gauge shotguns when I was a kid. My best friend when I was 12, was a member of the NRA. Used to go to meetings & target practice one Saturday a month. Rode his bicycle about 2 or 3 miles down the highway, with his rifle slung across his back. Never even raised an eyebrow.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

We used to have BB gun fights and you weren't supposed to aim for the head.  Some graduated to 22 fights making their own protection and hiding down by the rocks on the shoreline, but that wasn't for me...


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## MrJim (Aug 28, 2014)

I knew some crazy people when I was growing up & we did some some crazy & stupid things.

But having fights with real guns firing live ammo, was not one of them, thank God.

That's just insane.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

We went to slingshots after some of our BB guns were confiscated by nervous parents.  Hard grapes were the main ammo...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> We used to have BB gun fights and you weren't supposed to aim for the head.  Some graduated to 22 fights making their own protection and hiding down by the rocks on the shoreline, but that wasn't for me...



Your mates were idiots.

We did the same thing with weapons we made ourselves. We used a handful of wet clay launched from the tip of a green stick. It was non lethal fun.


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## Pappy (Aug 28, 2014)

We used apples, crab apples, on the end of a pointed stick. Those things could really get some distance.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

We were warriors in the making, not idiots, or sooks...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> My, my, you were really into it.  Did you have a coonskin hat?



No, my holiday money didn't stretch that far and beside in our climate one of them would cook your brain.
I once bought a sheepskin hat in New Zealand but it was totally unwearable in Sydney.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> We were warriors in the making, not idiots, or sooks...



We were just kids playing games. 
We played games to have fun. 
That what childhood is for. 

Military training for teens over here is a little more supervised. 
School cadets are not allowed to shoot at anything but targets. 
It's bad form to shoot at other cadets and your rifle will be confiscated.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Pappy said:


> We used apples, crab apples, on the end of a pointed stick. Those things could really get some distance.



A few bruises were just part of the fun. No real damage done.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Well, maybe you should have made Tonto your hero and you could have run around almost nekkid...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Not when we had Lord Greystoke and his mate to emulate.
Very few clothes needed in the jungle.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Lord Greystoke?  Sounds like some kind of pedophile...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Tarzan to you, you American philistine. :rofl:
Another -1 for American education.
I suppose you've never heard of the Earl of Loxley either?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

I was serious even as a lad and did not pursue trivia too far.  In fact, I only read Classic comic books so I wouldn't know who Lord Loxley is either...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Never heard of Robin Hood?

Sorry Ralphy, I shouldn't tease you.
We, as in Australians, didn't have TV before 1957 so we had to read or listen to the radio or go to the movies.
The books were mostly English, the radio was Australian and the movies were American.
We were multicultural before the word was invented.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Heard of him, but didn't want to dress up like him in tights...


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2014)

Men in Tights--- isn't that Mel Brooks Movie?

Today, the games you discovered (they have existed since recorded history), are done with paint ball and soft air, inside and outside through out the US, and comic books are marketed along the guidelines established by Joseph Campbells, "Hero with a Thousand Faces".


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 28, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> I'm a firm believer in teaching young people how to shoot and handle guns, but a 9 year old should be shooting 22s and not auto loaders either. A single shot, bolt action, or pump where each round has to be manually loaded is appropriate.



I agree Rkunsaw, but they should be taught by family or instructors at home, and a 9 year old with no experience should stick to 22s, shot in an areas where she lives, not as a kick on a vacation.  I disagree with the burgers and bullets concept, where they eat at a diner then go out back to take shots, when they have no gun training at all.  They say there was never an incident there, but this is a big one, they need to rethink what they're doing.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 28, 2014)

rt3 said:


> ... I'll bet SifuPhil can do just as much damage to a person with a ball point pen in the eye as a gun.



But I can't do it from 1,500 meters, nor 300 times per minute.

It took me many years to learn how to do it and even more to learn how NOT to do it. I shudder to think what our country would be like if everyone could gain that kind of skill just by going to Walmart and paying for a license. 

No, I'm afraid I can only _dream_ that I'm as lethal as a firearm.


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## MrJim (Aug 28, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> I was serious even as a lad and did not pursue trivia too far.  In fact, I only read Classic comic books so I wouldn't know who Lord Loxley is either...



All I know is that he's character in the PBS series _Mr Selfridge_...


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## Petula (Aug 28, 2014)

I like that we have so much freedom here, but the automatic and semi-automatic weapons, which seem to be more for war, I think should be regulated heavily, to protect the citizens. Where I live almost everyone has an arsenal of guns.   But usually it is quiet around here.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2014)

They are regulated heavily, it is obvious you have never bought one. Do you think the reason it is quiet is because the bad guys know the good guys have arsenals.  DAAA

as was stated. less than .3% of the crimes were made by Mr.Jims spray and pray crowd. From FBI statisics, the use of handguns by law abiding citizens will occur within 7 yds, and will be 93% of all instances used. 1500 yds and high cycle rates are only pertain to state sanctioned executions (assignations) 
most people wouldn't be able to acquire your skills in a lot of time Sifu, that is why Colt called the revolver " the great equalizer". 

Most states require a hunters safety course in getting a hunting lic. and which requires hands on showing the instructor that the shooter knows the weapon and safety. The actual art of shooting is not taught unless one goes to a "gun school". This is what Sifu is talking about in 1500 yd shooting, which is the thing movies are made of. Point in fact is that the hardest people to teach are usually hunters, male and have a backround in firearms usually from a hunting heritage. Quite a few are of the mindset that the knowledge flows from the weapon down the arms into the shooters head. The easiest to teach are woman who have never touched a gun and because of a deadly threat to them, taken this path. 
Martial artists make the best students because they have already been taught distancing, defense perimeter and basic self defense mindset. It would not matter if there were that many deadly martial artists in hand to hand combat, (see Samuel Colts quote), whether it occurred from hard work or Walmart as the purpose of extended force weapons (force multiplers, sophisticated rock throwers) is to negate that advantage. As a side note, doing away with firearms would simply shift the methodology to stick, and edge weapons. 

Ok burgers are out, how about doughnuts?


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## SifuPhil (Aug 28, 2014)

rt3 said:


> ... 1500 yds and high cycle rates are only pertain to state sanctioned executions (assignations)
> most people wouldn't be able to acquire your skills in a lot of time Sifu, that is why Colt called the revolver " the great equalizer".



The Great Equalizer ... some folks needed to have that lesson enforced in a rather direct way. I'm thinking of the Boxer Rebellion in China in 1900, where the Boxers thought their martial arts training and magic amulets would protect them from bullets.

Needless to say, they were wrong, and they lost their lives and Beijing as a result.

Sometimes you just have to acknowledge superior strength.



> Most states require a hunters safety course in getting a hunting lic. and which requires hands on showing the instructor that the shooter knows the weapon and safety. The actual art of shooting is not taught unless one goes to a "gun school". This is what Sifu is talking about in 1500 yd shooting, which is the thing movies are made of.



I was thinking of military snipers when I pulled that figure out of my head, but they aren't usually the kind we find running amok on the streets. Interesting point about not being taught the art of shooting - maybe that should be part of the curriculum ...



> Point in fact is that the hardest people to teach are usually hunters, male and have a backround in firearms usually from a hunting heritage. Quite a few are of the mindset that the knowledge flows from the weapon down the arms into the shooters head. The easiest to teach are woman who have never touched a gun and because of a deadly threat to them, taken this path.
> Martial artists make the best students because they have already been taught distancing, defense perimeter and basic self defense mindset. It would not matter if there were that many deadly martial artists in hand to hand combat, (see Samuel Colts quote), whether it occurred from hard work or Walmart as the purpose of extended force weapons (force multiplers, sophisticated rock throwers) is to negate that advantage. As a side note, doing away with firearms would simply shift the methodology to stick, and edge weapons.



Same with martial arts students - I always dreaded getting a new student that had previous instruction, whether formal or from the streets, because they were set in their ways and many times their ways were deadly wrong. 

I've always taught (and been taught) that any weapon is merely an extension of your hand, but the problem is that the analogy begins to break down when it comes to firearms. You'd need pretty long arms to match the take-down abilities of your street-variety .38 Special. So then the trick becomes getting inside the effective range not only of the weapon (which is pretty much 0 inches) but of the shooter themselves, an act which takes either training, luck or insanity. 

I've seen (and used) the argument that if you eliminate guns you would end up using sticks and stones, but I think the reality there is that you are not then capable of taking out multiple targets within seconds. It slows the process down when you get rid of your force-multipliers, a lesson we obviously were meant to learn from such events as the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 



> Ok burgers are out, how about doughnuts?



Darn, I like burgers.


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## Petula (Aug 28, 2014)

well, rt3, have pity on an older lady, whose memory is not what it used to be. I do think, that maybe my very sweet neighbor, who is a gun aficionado, told me about this, in the state of California. I had forgotten.  My other neighbor is an expert on guns, an old professor, in his late 80's, very knowledgeable, has taught gun safety lessons, for years, and taught me how to shoot a small shotgun. 

I should have said, it is quiet now, around here. In the past, we have had to call the sheriff's dept, as bullets were whizzing over our heads, and hitting the gate, etc., and you will laugh at this, all done by the neighbor deputy sheriff, who must have not had any gun safety lessons! And, the other neighbors who were poaching from the other direction, (never called anyone on them). And the other neighbors who were shooting for hours with semi-automatic weapons, until we had to call them when the bullets again landed at our feet, and they also worked for the sheriff's dept.  They may have been shooting illegally, as it stopped cold, after we called them (they are so scary, we would never call the sheriff on them). Not sure, though. Anyway, for a while, around here, it was very exciting!  We were wondering if my husband (an EMT) would have to patch anyone up, as our friends were visiting;   did corroborate our story.


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## MrJim (Aug 28, 2014)

All that yadda yadda about .3% of this & within 7 yards of that, is just deflection from the real point, which is that guns lead to shooting & violence. The more guns that are floating around & the more available those guns are, the more shooting, violence & gun related deaths there will be. One can obfuscate & hide behind a bunch of statistics all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that, where guns are, violence & death eventually show up too.

Guns = death.


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## Fern (Aug 28, 2014)

> an armed society is a polite society (civilized)  but then you don't have a constitution do you


Really,!!


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2014)

My bad you should have mentioned all the excitement previously.

Death shows up on freeway, hospital,  everyday Mr. Jim you should get out more, your age is showing. Your just trying to sanitize it. I'm (and several million other gun owners) are just there to make sure it happens to the bad guys. I really do respect your opinion, but it is only that, and like anatomical parts, everybody has at least one, including the one that causes constipation.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2014)

Sifu, the protective bell in Tai Chi, the ability for a samurai to hit with a bow and arrow blindfolded, and the philosophy of Bushido are not diminished by tactical superiority, merely shifted in time. Todays gun martial artists are into this very deep. Check out Brian Enos, Zen and shooting. 

Handguns shooting, according to FBI and Dept. of Justice statistics have something like a 90% survival rating,  while knife wounds are something like 60%. I would hate to see sword stats.  The successful engagement of multiple targets with a handgun is far beyond the capabilities of even the police. Most hand gun rounds can be deflected by any flat hard surface if the contact angle is 45 or greater degrees, which offers defense shield in many environments-- the one keeps their kool.


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## MrJim (Aug 28, 2014)

rt3 said:


> My bad you should have mentioned all the excitement previously.
> 
> Death shows up on freeway, hospital,  everyday Mr. Jim you should get out more, your age is showing. Your just trying to sanitize it. I'm (and several million other gun owners) are just there to make sure it happens to the bad guys. I really do respect your opinion, but it is only that, and like anatomical parts, everybody has at least one, including the one that causes constipation.



As I've pointed out before... automobiles are a necessity in today's world. One cannot lead a normal life without one. Just because accidents happen while operating them, does not put them on an equal par with guns, whose #1 purpose in life is to shoot other people. 

It's a false comparison.


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## Happyflowerlady (Aug 29, 2014)

MrJim said:


> As I've pointed out before... automobiles are a necessity in today's world. One cannot lead a normal life without one. Just because accidents happen while operating them, does not put them on an equal par with guns, whose #1 purpose in life is to shoot other people.
> 
> It's a false comparison.



What you are saying is only true to the extent of CRIMINALS having guns, Jim. 
The guns that belong to legitimate gun owners are (for the most part) being used by them for legal and non-lethal purposes; such as hunting, protecting their family and livestock from predators; and only used against another human being when necessary for defending their life, or the life of their loved ones.  

Criminals, on the other hand, use weapons to rob people, or just to shoot them because they are angry. For criminals with guns, your statement is pretty true.
I think that if the gun-control people would focus on taking the guns away from the CRIMINALS, and not the law-abiding citizens; they would have a lot more support; and if that were ever done, more people would actually be safe, and fewer would be killed with guns. 
Accidents would still happen with guns, just like they do with automobiles; but once the criminals were not carrying guns everywhere, the deliberate shootings would be almost non-existant. 
It is not the gun that is the issue, it is WHO has the gun, that is the problem.


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## Ina (Aug 29, 2014)

HFL, I wouldn't want to see what would happen if all the law abiding citizens turned in their guns at command. You know the criminal element would have a big belly laugh, just before they came at us.


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## Warrigal (Aug 29, 2014)

> I think that if the gun-control people would focus on taking the guns away from the CRIMINALS, and not the law-abiding citizens; they would have a lot more support; and if that were ever done, more people would actually be safe, and fewer would be killed with guns.


To do that you need to know where the guns are, whether or not there is a legitimate reason for having one and the power to search homes and other premises of people "known to the police".


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> What you are saying is only true to the extent of CRIMINALS having guns, Jim.
> The guns that belong to legitimate gun owners are (for the most part) being used by them for legal and non-lethal purposes; such as hunting, protecting their family and livestock from predators; and only used against another human being when necessary for defending their life, or the life of their loved ones.
> 
> Criminals, on the other hand, use weapons to rob people, or just to shoot them because they are angry. For criminals with guns, your statement is pretty true.
> ...



Very true Happyflowerlady, I agree completely.



Ina said:


> HFL, I wouldn't want to see what would happen if all the law abiding citizens turned in their guns at command. You know the criminal element would have a big belly laugh, just before they came at us.



You've got that right Ina, hope I'm long gone before any of that insanity happens!


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2014)

AS I HAVE SAID before, gunaphobics cannot deal with the issues, and choose to make what issues THEY think are correct. I am not asking you do accept mine, but when yours infringes, (OMG that word) on mine, keep your hands where I can see them. Self defense is a daily basic need just as any automobile, swimming pool, or any other modern convenience.


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## MrJim (Aug 29, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> What you are saying is only true to the extent of CRIMINALS having guns, Jim.





Happyflowerlady said:


> The guns that belong to legitimate gun owners are (for the most part) being used by them for legal and non-lethal purposes; such as hunting, protecting their family and livestock from predators; and only used against another human being when necessary for defending their life, or the life of their loved ones.



First of all, I think you're talking about something different than I was. What I was talking about is not whether or not guns should be allowed, but whether or not guns are a good or bad thing for society as a whole. 

IOW, has the presence of all these guns in the US overall, had a good effect or a bad effect? 

I say their presence has had an extremely bad effect. If nowadays, you have to walk around with a gun strapped to yourself, just to feel safe from all the other people walking around with guns, then something has gone very, very wrong.

Also, these "legitimate gun owners" you speak of, are often the ones who end up becoming "criminal gun owners" too. It has become more & more of a common occurrence, that people who started out being the "responsible, law abiding gun owners" who the gun rights crowd tout as the "good guys", either snap because of some pressure or personal crisis in their lives like a divorce, loss of a job or a business, etc., etc. Or... they allow some other person to get hold of their guns due to carelessness. Nancy Lanza, the mother of Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook shooter, was an experienced target shooter who knew all about gun safety as well as anyone. She also knew her son had serious emotional & psychological issues. Yet she allowed a situation to occur, in which her mentally disturbed son was able to get his hands on her guns. And the rest is history. So much for "responsible gun ownership".

Every so-called "legitimate gun owner" is just one misstep away from becoming responsible, either directly or indirectly, for a tragedy.




Happyflowerlady said:


> Criminals, on the other hand, use weapons to rob people, or just to shoot them because they are angry. For criminals with guns, your statement is pretty true.





Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that if the gun-control people would focus on taking the guns away from the CRIMINALS, and not the law-abiding citizens; they would have a lot more support; and if that were ever done, more people would actually be safe, and fewer would be killed with guns.
> Accidents would still happen with guns, just like they do with automobiles; but once the criminals were not carrying guns everywhere, the deliberate shootings would be almost non-existant.
> It is not the gun that is the issue, it is WHO has the gun, that is the problem.




The only way the police can take guns away from criminals is to apprehend them AFTER they commit some sort of crime with them, or to be caught in possession of them during the commission of some other crime. And that is exactly what is happening. You really can't do anymore within the framework of the constitution. Everybody has privacy rights protecting them against illegal search & seizure, & you cannot arrest someone just for thinking about doing something illegal.

There is no legitimate way anyone can stop criminals from getting guns because of all the different ways there are to get them. They often times either steal them during burglaries from these "responsible gun owners" who weren't responsible enough to keep them locked away in a gun safe, or they get them from someone else on the street, or they weren't criminals at the time they obtained the gun. 

What you are suggesting would involve some sort of mind reading ability.

The best way to have nipped this problem in the bud decades ago, I feel, would have been to put more restrictions on manufacturers & sellers than on the end users. Gun supporters complain about how there are thousands of regulations on the books regarding gun ownership, but the vast majority of those regulations pertain to gun owners. Once somebody owns a gun, it's impossible to stop them from doing whatever they decide to do with it. All the authorities can do, is come in after the fact & arrest them, then let the courts punish them. But by then, the damage has been done. The restrictions need to be on the manufacturers & sellers of them.

What I actually advocate, is putting heavy restrictions on the amount of ammunition that can be manufactured & sold in the US. Make the penalty for illegally possessing more than a set allowance similar to drug possession. Make the penalty for illegally selling it or transferring ownership, similar to the penalties for drug dealing or trafficking. If that were to happen, I believe, all these legitimate, law abiding gun owners who are only interested in self protection, would buy their limit, then lock it away until they (hopefully never) needed it. Recreational target shooters could buy bullets to use for one session from the shooting range, who would make sure they used them all up while there & not leave with them. 

But, as I said, gun control or changing gun laws was never the point of anything I've been saying here. My point has always been that guns have had a detrimental effect on our society.

Guns = death = bad.

My opinion.


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## MrJim (Aug 29, 2014)

rt3 said:


> AS I HAVE SAID before, gunaphobics cannot deal with the issues, and choose to make what issues THEY think are correct. I am not asking you do accept mine, but when yours infringes, (OMG that word) on mine, keep your hands where I can see them. Self defense is a daily basic need just as any automobile, swimming pool, or any other modern convenience.



And if it weren't for all the guns floating around to begin with, guns for self defense would not be a daily basic need.

See how that works?


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## Susie (Aug 29, 2014)

Now, now, Dame Warrigal, not everything honkey-dorey here in Australia, either.
Lots of assaults, burglaries, rape, thieving in cities like Melbourne and Sydney.
And even if you manage to inflict injury in self defense, guess who's the one most likely to be hauled into court?


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## Sunny (Aug 29, 2014)

I would love to know, just out of curiosity, what was going through the minds of that kid's parents, training her to use an Uzi. There's gotta be some totally irresponsible adults in back of this.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2014)

I do blame the parents first, then the instructor for not knowing better.  This wasn't training, as someone that young shouldn't be trained with an automatic weapon as their introduction gun.  It was just a silly cheap thrill thing, that should have never been allowed for someone so young.  Like I said, she can blame her parents for that memory that will haunt her for the rest of her life.


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## MrJim (Aug 29, 2014)

I think some pro-gun people enjoy doing what they perceive as rubbing their love & adoration of guns in the rest of society's faces. It's almost like some of them go out of their way to flaunt & show off to everyone else how much they love their guns & the 2nd amendment.

I think this "burgers & bullets" kind of gun tourism is just another example of that. 

I recall one instance of guns being given away like toasters, as an incentive for opening up a bank account.

I think these are all just certain members of the 2nd amendment crowd's way of trying to shock or make people mad.

And of course, when something like this tragedy happens then... oh well.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 29, 2014)

MrJim said:


> ... automobiles are a necessity in today's world. One cannot lead a normal life without one.



Are you implying that I lead an abnormal life?


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## SifuPhil (Aug 29, 2014)

For my 27th birthday my then-fiancé bought me a half-hour on an indoor shooting range with a vintage Thompson Model 21 sub-machine gun, the kind you used to see Elliot Ness and his boys running around with and cutely referred to as a "Chicago Typewriter".



First off, I already had owned and fired handguns, rifles and shotguns for many years, so I wasn't a total newcomer to firearms, but this thing was different - VERY different. The weight, first of all, was _far_ heavier than anything I had ever shot, especially with a full drum of .45 cartridges. I thought this would help to stabilize the firearm, but as I found out it only helped add momentum to the recoil.

I'm not a weakling by any means, but when I went full rock-'n'-roll with this thing I felt like I was riding a pogo stick powered by a Saturn V rocket. I cannot claim that I lost control of it, but it certainly gave me a start and a very sore arm afterwards. After half an hour of firing that thing - and realizing that the cost of the .45 cartridges I went through cost more than the rental itself - I was glad to go back home to my Mossburg 500 short-barreled shotgun and my S&W .45. 

I realize that an Uzi is generally light-weight plated steel compared to the Thompson, but I can also understand how the recoil can be a tricky, unpredictable thing.


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## Warrigal (Aug 29, 2014)

Susie said:


> Now, now, Dame Warrigal, not everything honkey-dorey here in Australia, either.
> Lots of assaults, burglaries, rape, thieving in cities like Melbourne and Sydney.
> And even if you manage to inflict injury in self defense, guess who's the one most likely to be hauled into court?


Of course not but guns are supposed to be registered. Long before Port Arthur all hand guns in NSW at least were required to be registered and properly secured. After Port Arthur the requirement was extended to all firearms. People who do not register are probably up to no good, and should they be found to have unregistered guns, they will be confiscated. 

A sensible approach which does help the police perform their duties.


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## rt3 (Aug 30, 2014)

can't control the amount of ammo manufactured because of a thing called reloading, same of the more socialist states such as Mass. and California have limits purchases. Obviously it doesn't work, (no way to enforce it, cops have better things to do). 

Most indoor gun ranges these day have select fire weapons, and you can rent one for shooting at the range. They can't leave the premises. The number of rounds fired, the diverse age group shooting them/vs. the number of incidents (AD's accidental discharges) makes it safer than riding an ATV. Tragedies happen in both sports. 


most Thompson run about 13-15 lbs almost 2 times as heavy as a hunting rifle. an uzi bolt which causes the momentum your talking about weighs almost 2x a Thompson bolt.


most gunaphobics  are control freaks, and anyone not buying into there utopic society causes extreme stress to them


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