# Says this church sign "...Facts don't matter" ?????



## Paco Dennis (Jul 29, 2021)




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## Colleen (Jul 29, 2021)

I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!

In November, our one neighbor had a big gathering for family for Thanksgiving and then Christmas. There was an elderly couple that were friends of hers that were invited> no one wore masks and never social distanced. As a matter of fact, she had told my husband and me prior to these gatherings that "If God wants me to get it (Covid) then I will but if He doesn't, He doesn't." We definitely stayed away from her and her family from then on. Anyway, the elderly man got Covid right after Christmas and died 2 days later.


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## Victor (Jul 29, 2021)

Really, really stupid. I understand the sign. To conservative faithful believers, it is true. Facts dont matter to them. But facts s*hould* matter.


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## helenbacque (Jul 29, 2021)

That's called denying reality, which is a dangerous move when applied to life.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2021)

How dare the pastor ask anyone to leave the church !

The Wesleys would not have sanctioned such an attitude let alone Jesus, whose teachings he is supposed to be preaching.


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## Don M. (Jul 29, 2021)

Those who continue to put "faith" and skepticism ahead of the facts surrounding this virus, are obviously taking their chances.  It wouldn't be any big deal....IMO....if they were only putting their own lives at risk, but continuing to potentially harm others is unconscionable.


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## Sunny (Jul 29, 2021)

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"


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## Colleen (Jul 29, 2021)

I have faith in God and I'm a believer in Jesus but I'm not a believer in churches. Many years ago, when my ex was running around with a gal from our church, I asked the minister to talk to my husband. Know what he said? "I don't want to get involved." That's when I lost my faith in churches.


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## Alligatorob (Jul 29, 2021)

A stupid thing to say, and one that makes little sense. 

In my experience religious folks are as likely to accept fact as anyone else.  Religious beliefs are in things that go beyond fact, not that violate it...


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## Oris Borloff (Jul 29, 2021)

Regarding the original post, I took it to mean if you have your faith then details surrounding inconsistencies in the scripture don't matter, not anything to do with politics or covid.  I could be wrong, because for years when I'd hear someone say, " Happy Holidays"  I was under the impression it was to abbreviate "Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year".


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## Colleen (Jul 29, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Regarding the original post, I took it to mean if you have your faith then details surrounding inconsistencies in the scripture don't matter, not anything to do with politics or covid.  I could be wrong, because for years when I'd hear someone say, " Happy Holidays"  I was under the impression it was to abbreviate "Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year".


I don't think that's what that sign means. It means just what it says....another disinformation about vaccines and Covid. That's what my neighbor believes because her church told her so. Wonder if it ever bothers her that by being so "religious" she and her family literally killed someone. People are too easily lead astray. They're like sheep being lead to the slaughter...and they're happy to go.


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## Knight (Jul 29, 2021)

Here's a fact not happening now though. 

Matthew 4:23-25

New International Version
​Jesus Heals the Sick​23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them. 25 Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis,[a] Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 29, 2021)

The cross and nails used to kill Christ were facts not faith.


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## feywon (Jul 29, 2021)

Colleen said:


> I have faith in God and I'm a believer in Jesus but I'm not a believer in churches. Many years ago, when my ex was running around with a gal from our church, I asked the minister to talk to my husband. Know what he said? "I don't want to get involved." That's when I lost my faith in churches.


Sorry you had to go thru that. First your husband betrays you, then your pastor.


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## CinnamonSugar (Jul 29, 2021)

I've been taught that faith and science/fact compliment each other.


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## RadishRose (Jul 29, 2021)

As a matter of fact, the fact of the matter is; nothing really matters.

Unless it's your favorite ice cream.


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## jerry old (Jul 29, 2021)

As a believer, i don't quite know what to say.


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## win231 (Jul 29, 2021)

Colleen said:


> I have faith in God and I'm a believer in Jesus but I'm not a believer in churches. Many years ago, when my ex was running around with a gal from our church, I asked the minister to talk to my husband. Know what he said? "I don't want to get involved." That's when I lost my faith in churches.


The minister didn't say, _"Look to the heavens for answers?"_


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## Lara (Jul 29, 2021)

(This is a Bible based response for believers and unbelievers. Agree or disagree. It's your choice and I respect that because God created us to make wise choices based on our own studies that include His words as well and which are pleasing in our creator's sight.)

1. The sign in Post1...This is NOT what the Bible says. Of course facts matter. And faith matters. We are to trust God in all things but we aren't told to check our brains at the door. He created us with brains to study and discern fact from fiction, to be proactive for recognizing and choosing Good over Evil.

2. The Bible states, "Beware of false teachers"

3. Everyone is accepted and no one is turned away from gathering together to hear Jesus' teachings...unless they are there to do harm to others. Wearing a mask obviously does not harm others. Jesus said, "Come unto me ALL ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest". He said this often and in various ways to include everyone.

4. No church is perfect because we all disobey God to varying degrees and for various reasons. Basically, all humanity has a sin nature.

5. I attended a church once that did something very wrong. I chose to leave. They aren't all good....but they aren't all bad either. Again, you just have to use the brain God gave you to study his word and then choose wisely.


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## feywon (Jul 29, 2021)

CinnamonSugar said:


> I've been taught that faith and science/fact compliment each other.


I wasn't taught that in any formal way, but feel that way.


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## Lara (Jul 29, 2021)

Knight: "Here's a fact not happening now...that of Jesus healing the sick"

Bible says: Jesus' miracles had a purpose...to show proof that he was the Messiah.

We no longer need that proof but with that said, miracles can happen anytime God chooses to make them happen...because he can, and for whatever purpose he wants.


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## Lara (Jul 29, 2021)

CinnamonSugar said:


> I've been taught that faith and science/fact compliment each other.


Well, God created science so that makes sense. Unfortunately, man has messed with God's perfect science and perfect plans. There are now natural consequences for which we must suffer.


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## Irwin (Jul 29, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Regarding the original post, I took it to mean if you have your faith then details surrounding inconsistencies in the scripture don't matter, not anything to do with politics or covid.  I could be wrong, because for years when I'd hear someone say, " Happy Holidays"  I was under the impression it was to abbreviate "Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year".


The only time I hear "happy holidays" is at stores where they don't want to exclude anyone. A Jew's, a Muslim's, or an atheist's money is as good as a Christian's, and money is all that matters in much of today's world. Of course, the word holiday comes from the term 'holy day' so it's still religious, but that's just a technicality.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2021)

Happy Holidays has never really taken off in Australia. Merry Christmas is a greeting that acknowledges a season rather than being a religious greeting. During Ramadan I will say Ramadan Mubarak to any Muslim women I meet to acknowledge their faith. I may say something like "May this time be fruitful for you" if they respond with a smile.

Two things irritate me - "Happy Anzac Day" because this day is a day or remembrance of those lost in battle and "Happy Easter" on Good Friday. Both make as much sense as greeting someone with Happy Hiroshima Day.


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## JonDouglas (Jul 29, 2021)

If you look around enough, you can find stupidity in just about any and every type of institution. It knows no boundaries.


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## Nathan (Jul 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> (This is a Bible based response for believers and unbelievers. Agree or disagree. It's your choice and I respect that because God created us to make wise choices based on our own studies that include His words as well and which are pleasing in our creator's sight.)
> 
> 1. The sign in Post1...This is NOT what the Bible says. Of course facts matter. And faith matters. We are to trust God in all things but we aren't told to check our brains at the door. He created us with brains to study and discern fact from fiction, to be proactive for recognizing and choosing Good over Evil.
> 
> ...


Thank you, well said.


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## Paco Dennis (Jul 29, 2021)

I have decided that this existential question is absolutely impossible to answer. "Did God create man, or did man create God?"  I use to contemplate this daily for 30 years as a monk. Now I find that I have no interest in solving the dilemma. It hurts my health.


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## JonDouglas (Jul 29, 2021)

I trust everyone knows there are apps that let you put any message you want on church signs with the result not looking fake.


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Jul 29, 2021)

From my experience, this is the "philosophy" of roughly three-quarters of the US adult population, to varying degree. But even when facts are not to your liking, remember the old saying, "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst."


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2021)

Thanks JonDouglas. I keep forgetting that people do this.


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## Lara (Jul 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I have decided that this existential question is absolutely impossible to answer. "Did God create man, or did man create God?"  I use to contemplate this daily for 30 years as a monk. Now I find that I have no interest in solving the dilemma. It hurts my health.


"There is beauty in the migration of the birds, healing in the repeated refrains of nature...the folded bud waiting for spring, the ebb and flow of the tides, the assurance that dawn comes after the night" ~ Rachel Carson

All I have to do is look out over vastness of the ocean and knowing the sea life beneath is a fascinating beauty to behold, the various ecosystems all working together, the mighty power of the roaring crashing waves, the beautiful moon and stars that capture our imaginations,

...the rising and setting of the sun that paints the sky in a masterpiece of colors, different every night, and gives us warmth by day.
It's a masterpiece that no artist, however great, can ever come close to capturing it's beauty though they all have tried.

The miracle of birth, no face is the same, no fingerprint is the same, all flora and fauna and all the colorful patterns that go with each one..

Therein is the answer.
But God doesn't want it to be clear at first. 
He wants us to study, and then choose to believe in him without seeing him.
Love is more real when one chooses to love.


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 30, 2021)

It's all very well to quote the beautiful and good things in life when you talk of a god, but the world is not all good, so do you also accept that the same god is responsible for all the bad things too?

I studied and I chose, and I chose not believe in a 'god'.


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## Fyrefox (Jul 30, 2021)

I’m reminded of a nostrum usually attributed to Don Quixote that “_facts are the enemy of truth!_”  Sadly, many are those who now discount facts in favor of personal beliefs and biases...


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## OneEyedDiva (Jul 30, 2021)

It is said that God helps those who help themselves. People who decide they are not going to be cautious because God is going to protect them no matter how foolish they behave are....well...foolish. God didn't say walk out in front of that bus to see if I'll work a miracle and save you from being hit. Better not to step in front of the bus. That pastor is obviously ignorant on so many levels.  I wonder how he'll feel when his parishioners get COVID and die?


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I trust everyone knows there are apps that let you put any message you want on church signs with the result not looking fake.


Thank you Jon for pointing out that anyone can use an app to make a sign like that. Especially by someone who hates church-goers. 
I think we all agree that this pastor is ignorant...that is IF it was a pastor that did that sign.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> It's all very well to quote the beautiful and good things in life when you talk of a god, but the world is not all good, so do you also accept that the same god is responsible for all the bad things too?
> 
> I studied and I chose, and I chose not believe in a 'god'.


You left Satan and Sin out of your scenario @Capt Lightning. God is good, Satan is evil. And the there's...
Man who has a sin-nature that sometimes causes natural consequences that can be very bad...tough lessons learned.


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## Paco Dennis (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> Thank you Jon for pointing out that anyone can use an app to make a sign like that. Especially by someone who hates church-goers.
> I think we all agree that this pastor is ignorant...that is IF it was a pastor that did that sign.



If it was the Pastor...oh well. If it was someone else/s then it is even more insidious.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

Yesterday, a member shared, "I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!"

This is what we all can agree is a statement SO ridiculous that I doubt seriously if the article is legitimate. If it is legit then I'm quite sure the Pastor is not legit. I would go so far as to say it's a smear campaign by a hater.


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## JonDouglas (Jul 30, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> If it was the Pastor...oh well. If it was someone else/s then it is even more insidious.


I am abut 70% certain the photo is a fake, either photoshopped or put through one of those sign apps.


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## Jennina (Jul 30, 2021)

I've stopped myself a couple of times from posting on this thread.  The first time, I was just at a loss for words after seeing the pic. The second time, I didn't want to get banned from this site. Third time's the charm... 

We need to stop putting not-so-smart people in positions of power.  And we need to stop making them famous and rich. 

(I deleted the rest of what I originally wrote.)


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## Don M. (Jul 30, 2021)

I attended church faithfully during my growing up years.  Then, as I got older and began to observe things more closely, I began to realize that the Most Important part of the service was the passing of the Collection Plate. 

I truly believe that the universe is guided by a Power far superior to anything we can imagine, and the best way to insure that our experience is positive is to try to lead an honest and productive life....and Not to become a burden to others.


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## Capt Lightning (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> You left Satan and Sin out of your scenario @Capt Lightning. God is good, Satan is evil. And the there's...
> Man who has a sin-nature that sometimes causes natural consequences that can be very bad...tough lessons learned.


Yes, people do bad things,  but many people suffer when there are no obvious causes. So, just how can man's "sin-nature" have "natural" consequences?


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 30, 2021)

If God purposely created a way for science to alleviate disease, why in the hell not use it?


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## Knight (Jul 30, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> Yes, people do bad things,  but many people suffer when there are no obvious causes. So, just how can man's "sin-nature" have "natural" consequences?


The people doing bad things I guess are those that abuse the free will to do good. Finding a way to attribute only good works if you leave out new born children with birth defects as only one example of the mercy & goodness not extended to innocents. 

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/data.html

I just don't understand why only good is attributed.


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## Packerjohn (Jul 30, 2021)

I never argue about religion and politics.  Why?  Because I never win!


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

I hear ya' Packerjohn


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## Ladybj (Jul 30, 2021)

Colleen said:


> I have faith in God and I'm a believer in Jesus but I'm not a believer in churches. Many years ago, when my ex was running around with a gal from our church, I asked the minister to talk to my husband. Know what he said? "I don't want to get involved." That's when I lost my faith in churches.


I do understand.  My Faith is in God not the Church.  I understand Preachers/Pastors are not perfect and I feel too many people put too much Faith in them.  When my sister died I called the Church where I was a member to help in whatever way they could (as my sister did not have a life insurance policy) long story short - no one called me back. However, I have to say, they reached out when my mother passed away.   

A friend of mine told me to call this other Church because they were very good in helping families.. I called, was suppose to get a call back - you can guess what happened?? Nevertheless, everything worked out.


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## Ladybj (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> Well, God created science so that makes sense. Unfortunately, man has messed with God's perfect science and perfect plans. There are now natural consequences for which we must suffer.


That's sort of like saying -one child was disobedient so all the children in the family will suffer??


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## jerry old (Jul 30, 2021)

Has it been determined that this is a 'real' sign, with the message posted sanctioned by the church hierarchy?


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

Not really Jerry. I am interested in the answer to that question too.


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## Tish (Jul 30, 2021)

Having Faith is one thing, acting stupid is another.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Has it been determined that this is a 'real' sign, with the message posted sanctioned by the church hierarchy?


The church is real but no confirmation that the message on the sign is real. 
Some anonymous person online compared various definitions of "Fact" and then compared those with the churches doctrine.

For anyone interested, here is how he explains it:

*"As for the message on the sign itself, I will say that I am not a fan of it because it is prone to misunderstanding. That said, I do believe there is a rather obvious charitable interpretation.*
*
The key is to recognize that the word “fact” is not only defined in common parlance as a true claim, it also is sometimes defined as 
a claim that is believed to be true. For example, Dictionary.com offers the following as their fourth definition of “fact”: “something said to be true or supposed to have happened.” The dictionary then gives this example: “The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.” In this usage, a “fact” is a claim which is presented as true but which may actually be false.

As for the word “faith”, that refers to the act of exercising trust in someone or something.

And so, we can now finally close in on our interpretation. The church sign is saying the following:

“If you have sufficient trust in someone or something, apparent counter-evidence to that testimonial witness will not be sufficient to overwhelm your trust in it.”
*
*And that, it turns out, is a perfectly sensible claim. So here’s the lesson: before you make fun of the church sign, try interpreting it charitably."*


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## JonDouglas (Jul 30, 2021)

Note:  For right or wrong, the shadows on the sign look more like they were applied with a photoshop brush.  There is one way to find out though - call the church and ask.


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## Mr. Ed (Jul 30, 2021)

Is your faith big enough that facts do not matter? Faith is believing in something that defies logic and reason. Faith is the veil by which believers commune with God as God is known by the believer. It is a fact I am God as God is me. there is no difference. 

Is what I experience faith or something much greater? Perhaps spiritual? What kind of spirit, I assume it is the  spirit of God based on the resurrection of Jesus. I too experienced a resurrection from my former self to a spiritual vessel of the God I serve.


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## ohioboy (Jul 30, 2021)

I read it as simply a gem-like aphorism. In the End, all that matters is Faith, that will be the key to unlocking Heaven's gate, for those metaphorically inclined.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> ...Faith is believing in something that defies logic and reason.


Faith defies logic and reason? Who says? Not me.
My faith is based on logic, reason, knowledge, facts, experiences, using all of my senses, and believing in evidence not seen.

Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
And I don't mean Attraction or Lust nor the feeling brought on by Dopamine and other hormonal shifts. That's not Love.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> I read it as simply a gem-like aphorism. In the End, all that matters is Faith, that will be the key to unlocking Heaven's gate, for those metaphorically inclined.


hmm. Metaphorically inclined?
What is the one thing used to mean another thing exactly?

Do you mean like a Proverb? Or a Parable?
Yes, those are occasionally used to make a point and clearly pointed out to be taken "metaphorically"


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## chic (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> Faith defies logic and reason? Who says? You.
> But not me. My faith is based on logic, reason, knowledge, facts, experiences, using all of my senses, and more
> 
> Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
> And I don't mean Attraction or Lust nor the feeling brought on by Dopamine and other hormonal shifts. That's not Love.


Faith is believing when common sense tells you not to. From Miracle on 34th St.


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.

I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.

Roughly 10 years later I was (metaphorically speaking) tapped on the shoulder by the God that I had been denying for years. He, she, it (there should be a better pronoun) called me by name and I was ready by then to answer in the affirmative. I made my choice and commitment to the unknown presence and from that day I was a changed person. In religious language I was reborn, renewed and reshaped.

I have sometimes thought that I may be deluded about that experience. Doubt and faith can exist together in the same person but then I examine my life and my growth as a person and that is surety enough for me.

It is like a marriage commitment. As a couple of twenty year olds my husband and I made our vows to each other and entered into marriage. There have been times when I was not happy and thought about leaving but then I remembered my vows and got over myself. We have now been together in good times and in bad for nearly 59 years and are more committed than when we were first wed. Science and the scientific method have played no significant part in the success of our relationship. That is not to say that I have abandoned my trust in modernity. I haven't. I simply chose to stay because I was free, free to leave. Does that make sense to anyone?

Faith and commitment to God can grow over the years or it can shrivel and die. Church is just the place where the committed gather to share their faith, to rejoice and to learn. I am not the least concerned about what happens after I die, nor the manner of my death. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life because I am held in the palm of my redeemer God.


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## win231 (Jul 30, 2021)

That sign is one of the reasons why I find religion so entertaining & amusing.


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

There is nothing amusing about that sign. If it is genuine and not a forgery, it is quite alarming.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
> Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.
> 
> I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.
> ...


Well penned, Warrigal. A beautiful testimony of your faith. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2021)

win231 said:


> That sign is one of the reasons why I find religion so entertaining & amusing.


He Gotcha' Win!  That's exactly what the internet sign-creator wanted you to think when he photoshopped the sign. Whether he did or not, you never know on the internet. I think @JonDouglas is right...I also noticed the funky shadows applied by paintbrush.


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## ohioboy (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> hmm. Metaphorically inclined?
> What is the one thing used to mean another thing exactly?
> 
> Do you mean like a Proverb? Or a Parable?
> Yes, those are occasionally used to make a point and clearly pointed out to be taken "metaphorically"


"The key to unlock the gates of heaven is Faith"... is the metaphor, as heaven has no actual gates or locks, as we all know. There are some who like metaphors and similie's than others, I would think.

"She walks in beauty like the night" Byron's widely quoted similie. I enjoy such, but some don't, or find them hard to understand?


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## ohioboy (Jul 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> He Gotcha' Win!  That's exactly what the internet sign-creator wanted you to think when he photoshopped the sign. Whether he did or not, you never know on the internet. I think @JonDouglas is right...I also noticed the funky shadows applied by paintbrush.


Why do you think the sign was photoshopped? It merely states words?


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

I've been caught out before, believing my eyes but forgetting that images on the internet can be manipulated.


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> "The key to unlock the gates of heaven is Faith"... is the metaphor, as heaven has no actual gates or locks, as we all know. There are some who like metaphors and similie's than others, I would think.
> 
> "She walks in beauty like the night" Byron's widely quoted similie. I enjoy such, but some don't, or find them hard to understand?


I love the way metaphors enrich literature. They are not much use in science although the vision described in Kekule's dream was a very useful metaphor in the eventual understanding of the structure of the benzene ring.


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## horseless carriage (Jul 31, 2021)

Victor said:


> Really, really stupid. I understand the sign. To conservative faithful believers, it is true.


God Will Save Me​





A big storm approaches. The weatherman urges everyone to get out of town. The priest says, "I won't worry, God will save me".
The morning of the storm, the police go through the neighbourhood with a sound truck telling everyone to evacuate. The priest says "I won't worry, God will save me".
The storm drains back up and there is an inch of water standing in the street. A fire truck comes by to pick up the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises another foot. A National Guard truck comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises some more. The priest is forced up to his roof. A boat comes by to rescue the priest. He tells them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises higher. The priest is forced up to the very top of his roof. A helicopter comes to rescue the priest. He shouts up at them "Don't worry, God will save me."
The water rises above his house, and the priest drowns.
When he gets up to heaven he says to God "I've been your faithful servant ever since I was born! Why didn't you save me?"
God replies "First I sent you a fire truck, then the national guard, then a boat, and then a helicopter. What more do you want from me?"


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## Butterfly (Jul 31, 2021)

Perhaps we should change the above story to where it is a pandemic instead of a storm, and a vaccine instead of the fire truck, boat, etc.


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## Aneeda72 (Jul 31, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Love, like faith, is a choice and a commitment. So is disbelief.
> Humanity is, and I'm struggling for a neutral word here, designed for freedom of choice.
> 
> I once chose belief in the scientific method and the separation of science and religion as my guiding lights in life. My choice did not lead me to 'green pastures" especially when my father died suddenly and my sister's first baby died in the womb and was still born. It was pretty useless when her second was born at 28 weeks and her little life hung in the balance. I found myself to be an empty vessel unable to comfort someone I loved very dearly.
> ...


Very well said.


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## Mr. Ed (Jul 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> Give me a scientific definition of how Love was created or came into being.
> 
> 
> Lara said:
> ...


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## Lara (Jul 31, 2021)

Good morning  
It's a new day so I think I'll just ease on out 
of this discussion now. But I've enjoyed it. Good one.
Just don't want to overstay my welcome or did I


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


>


There is something to be gained I feel by not getting too bogged down with "detail", (or you could say "facts"), if by doing so you tie yourself and others down, by concerning yourself with small things, thus ignoring the "bigger picture"!


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Has it been determined that this is a 'real' sign, with the message posted sanctioned by the church hierarchy?


The sign could perhaps be interpreted as I suggested above, as one thing I'm told science has now agreed upon, there will never be answers to some scientific questions, as "systems" of all kinds, especially at the sub atomic level, are matters of probability, not certainty, or possible to know as simple "facts"!


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## Della (Aug 1, 2021)

Colleen said:


> I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!


I would have left this note for the pastor:

Matthew 4:5-7
Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” Jesus said to him, “*Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”*


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

win231 said:


> That sign is one of the reasons why I find religion so entertaining & amusing.


There is no reason why amusement shouldn't be sought wherever it can be found, and maybe humour was an intended aspect of those composing the sign.
However, to be bit serious for a moment, if any of us try to imagine the life challenges faced by human beings two thousand years ago, when scientific "facts" we now take for granted were complete mysteries even to the greatest brains, what then would "we" simple people have thought, or wanted to cling on to? Would atheism have furnished us with ideas and inspiration to get us through such uncertain times?


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## Capt Lightning (Aug 1, 2021)

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that humans would and did come up with the necessary solutions.  I can understand that people would think that many things must be supernatural, but necessity, not religion is the mother of invention.


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## Chet (Aug 1, 2021)

As far as the sign goes in the original post, I think the pastor was trying to be original and topical at the same time. Don't forget that they put up a new message weekly and sometimes they may not be winners.


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## Colleen (Aug 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> It is said that God helps those who help themselves. People who decide they are not going to be cautious because God is going to protect them no matter how foolish they behave are....well...foolish. God didn't say walk out in front of that bus to see if I'll work a miracle and save you from being hit. Better not to step in front of the bus. That pastor is obviously ignorant on so many levels.  I wonder how he'll feel when his parishioners get COVID and die?


Well said!! This is what my neighbor believes....that God will protect her no matter what and if He doesn't then it's what He wanted to happen. You can't fix stupid.


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> In answer to your question, yes, I believe that humans would and did come up with the necessary solutions.  I can understand that people would think that many things must be supernatural, but necessity, not religion is the mother of invention.


Does atheism inspire anyone, or give people thoughts/ideas they wouldn't necessarily have come up with otherwise, (if there had been no religions in the world)?
We can speculate but we cant kid ourselves we've got a comprehensive understanding of life before the technologies and medicines we now rely upon.


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

Colleen said:


> Well said!! This is what my neighbor believes....that God will protect her no matter what and if He doesn't then it's what He wanted to happen. You can't fix stupid.


You may be right, and certainly not taking reasonable steps to protect yourself and others is ridiculous of course, but I still admire those who do have the kind of faith that allows them to live through difficult times most of us maybe couldn't cope with who do not have that depth of devotion to their beliefs.


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## Irwin (Aug 1, 2021)

God gave us the means to protect ourselves in most cases. If we don't take advantage of our abilities, we're defying God. That said, if I ever get the chance, I'm going to ask him why he created so many a**holes — many of whom claim to be devout followers!


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## grahamg (Aug 1, 2021)

Irwin said:


> God gave us the means to protect ourselves in most cases. If we don't take advantage of our abilities, we're defying God. That said, if I ever get the chance, I'm going to ask him why he created so many a**holes — many of whom claim to be devout followers!


I suppose we could ask ourselves whether those we think of as you describe, are complete examples of the genre, or whether there is some good somewhere, hidden beneath all the not so good?
Maybe too, so many wish to believe their thinking is correct, or superior, and this failing we can all slip into, even "on those rare occasions we're wrong"!


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## Irwin (Aug 2, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I suppose we could ask ourselves whether those we think of as you describe, are complete examples of the genre, or whether there is some good somewhere, hidden beneath all the not so good?
> Maybe too, so many wish to believe their thinking is correct, or superior, and this failing we can all slip into, even "on those rare occasions we're wrong"!


Primum non nocere, which means: first, do no harm. It's the Hippocratic Oath that I believe doctors are supposed to take.

If people would just abstain from doing harm, the world would be a hell of a lot better place, but there are all sorts of reasons people do harmful things... money, power, low self-esteem, religion, and for some, for the thrill of it.


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## Judycat (Aug 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> Yesterday, a member shared, "I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!"
> 
> This is what we all can agree is a statement SO ridiculous that I doubt seriously if the article is legitimate. If it is legit then I'm quite sure the Pastor is not legit. I would go so far as to say it's a smear campaign by a hater.


https://www.rawstory.com/greg-locke-vaccinations/


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## Lara (Aug 2, 2021)

I see your source, but the Pastor, in my opinion, may be a false teacher or it was staged by a hater of "organized religion" (defamation/slander).

There is nowhere in the Bible that says Thou shalt not wear a mask in church, nor Thou shalt not be vaccinated


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## Jennina (Aug 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> I see your source, but the Pastor, in my opinion, may be a false teacher or it was staged by a hater of "organized religion" (defamation/slander).
> 
> There is nowhere in the Bible that says Thou shalt not wear a mask in church, nor Thou shalt not be vaccinated


I think this is a case of a pastor incorporating his politics into his church.


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## Sunny (Aug 2, 2021)

CinnamonSugar said:


> I've been taught that faith and science/fact compliment each other.


Not necessarily, Cinnamon. And certainly not all the time.

First of all, I assume you mean complement (to complete), not compliment (flatter, say something nice, etc.).

Second, what is "faith" telling you?  There are many faiths, and while there are areas of agreement, they often contradict each other. And they very often contradict science/fact.  Science (real science, not quack theories) leads us to the same conclusions no matter where in the world the lab is located in. The truth is the same, regardless of the nationality, race, or religion of the scientist.

Faith is different. Most of them claim to have a handle on the truth, with no proof, only the word of a holy book or a "holy teacher."  Faith gives us hundreds of versions of "the truth."

If your faith tells you that the earth was created in six days, how does that complement science?  One is true, the other is not.
Women were created out of a man's rib?  How does that complement science? Noah and his ark?  Moses parting the Red Sea?
If you have enough faith in what the pastor of this church is telling you, you won't get Covid, vaccines are unnecessary?

There are hundreds of other examples.  What might be said, however, even by nonbelievers, is that science deals with the truth, facts, realism. Faith deals with a poetic, philosophical description of what is true.

Where we run into trouble is when some people get the two confused, and think the poetry of the faith they have been taught is the literal, factual truth.  And nothing will turn "faith" into truth when dealing with hard facts, such as a lethal virus. The sign on that church in the OP is promoting blind obedience, It is dangerous, and ignorant statements like this are the cause of many needless deaths.


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## Judycat (Aug 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> I see your source, but the Pastor, in my opinion, may be a false teacher or it was staged by a hater of "organized religion" (defamation/slander).
> 
> There is nowhere in the Bible that says Thou shalt not wear a mask in church, nor Thou shalt not be vaccinated


The Pastor is like many Protestant non-denominational pastors whose flock is taught it is a sin to question.


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## Jennina (Aug 2, 2021)

Chet said:


> As far as the sign goes in the original post, I think the pastor was trying to be original and topical at the same time. Don't forget that they put up a new message weekly and sometimes they may not be winners.


Wanting to be original and topical does not justify making dangerously stupid statements. His flock trusts him to lead them to eternal salvation. That is an enormous responsibility and power. It's his job to not say stupid things. 

If he came up with a lackluster message because he couldn't deal with the weekly pressure of writing killer copy for his church marquee, that's okay.  But in this case, he is teaching his flock a way of thinking, a dangerous way of thinking. It is a statement  manipulative people make so no one  would dare question anything they say. 

I apologize if I sound rude.  You seem like a really compassionate and tolerant guy.  But, no Chet, there is no excuse.


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## Jennina (Aug 2, 2021)

CinnamonSugar said:


> I've been taught that faith and science/fact compliment each other.


Same here.  I was told science answers the question how and religion answers the question why. 

But later on, I learned a different point of view.  We can't marry religion and science. For example,  it's either you believe in evolution or you believe that God created the world in 6 days. 
You cant believe both. If you believe in evolution, then there's no Adam and Eve.  Without the "first couple," there's no original sin. Without original sin, there's no need for Christ.  And that made sense to me.

I don't profess  to have an in depth knowledge of both religion and science; so, I can't cite  examples of how religious beliefs complement scientific principles. 
Perhaps you can share your thoughts on this? 

I do have an open mind. If I receive new information that would prove that what i believe to be true is in fact incorrect, then I change my position, but not without 
evidence  or at  least,  some semblance of logic.


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## grahamg (Aug 2, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Wanting to be original and topical does not justify making dangerously stupid statements. His flock trusts him to lead them to eternal salvation. That is an enormous responsibility and power. It's his job to not say stupid things.
> If he came up with a lackluster message because he couldn't deal with the weekly pressure of writing killer copy for his church marquee, that's okay.  But in this case, he is teaching his flock a way of thinking, a dangerous way of thinking. It is a statement  manipulative people make so no one  would dare question anything they say.
> I apologize if I sound rude.  You seem like a really compassionate and tolerant guy.  But, no Chet, there is no excuse.


I'm sure no one needs me to speak for them, but the pastors words only become un-excusable surely, if we can be entirely sure what he meant by them is what you've interpreted them to mean, (and the man himself hasn't had even a chance to defend his words has he, and in a tolerant society we'd all like to see that kind of accommodation made wouldn't we?).


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## CinnamonSugar (Aug 2, 2021)

@Jennina and @Sunny, I’ll be glad to continue discussion after I get some rest.  Don’t have two brain cells to rub together right now


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## Jennina (Aug 2, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I'm sure no one needs me to speak for them, but the pastors words only become un-excusable surely, if we can be entirely sure what he meant by them is what you've interpreted them to mean, (and the man himself hasn't had even a chance to defend his words has he, and in a tolerant society we'd all like to see that kind of accommodation made wouldn't we?).


The thing is he spoke in plain English. Not a parable that you need to interpret. No figures of speech either.  It was direct to the point. I don't know how else to interpret the clause "Facts don't matter."

And although it was a conditional statement, the hypothesis is a requirement of the church isn't it?  You're supposed to have deep faith.  So essentially, he"s making a general statement here.  Do you agree?  

What's your interpretation of his message, anyway. I'm curious.


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## grahamg (Aug 2, 2021)

Jennina said:


> The thing is he spoke in plain English. Not a parable that you need to interpret. No figures of speech either.  It was direct to the point. I don't know how else to interpret the clause "Facts don't matter."
> And although it was a conditional statement, the hypothesis is a requirement of the church isn't it?  You're supposed to have deep faith.  So essentially, he"s making a general statement here.  Do you agree?
> What's your interpretation of his message, anyway. I'm curious.


Funnily enough I was challenged as to whether I was a Christian at the weekend, by some one using "facts" you could say, against me.
You could argue too, the basic tenets of the Christian faith I might wish to consider "open to interpretation", (like the virgin birth), are, as you would probably agree, matters of faith, not necessarily fact, (a former bishop of Durham famously being equivocal about his belief in that tenet thirty odd years ago too).
My interpretation of the pastors message is the man might not have meant, "All facts don't matter", just, "Sometimes faith matters more than facts", (or what is taken as a fact in this sceptical world).


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## grahamg (Aug 3, 2021)

Some research related to the thread topic:
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/europe/23italy.html

"Mother Teresa recited the simple prayer of St. Francis every day. Margaret Thatcher cited it upon becoming prime minister of Britain, and Alcoholics Anonymous included it in its “12 steps” book. But something else is notable about the prayer that begins: “Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith.”

St. Francis of Assisi, who was born in the 12th century, probably had nothing to do with it.

An article published this week in L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, said the prayer in its current form dates only from 1912, when it appeared in a French Catholic periodical. And it became wildly popular only after it was reprinted in L’Osservatore Romano in 1916 at the behest of Pope Benedict XV, who wanted a prayer for peace in the throes of World War I.

Although news to many, the truth about the prayer had apparently been hiding in plain sight.

“No one among the Franciscans ever thought it really was by St. Francis,” said Giovanni Maria Vian, the editor of L’Osservatore Romano. Mr. Vian said the point of the article was to show the importance of prayers for peace in times of war

Although the prayer’s origins “remain mysterious,” Mr. Vian said, the prayer had at some point been printed on the back of cards bearing images of St. Francis, hence the confusion.

Would fans of St. Francis be disappointed to know the truth?

“Catholics are used to this sort of thing, that you have a tradition but you don’t know when it started or its whole history,” said the Rev. Thomas G. Weinandy, a Franciscan and the executive director of the Secretariat for Doctrine at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

He pointed to St. Christopher. “The church says he more than likely did not historically exist,” Father Weinandy said. “But people still pray to him, figuring someone up in heaven is in charge of watching over travelers."


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## grahamg (Aug 3, 2021)

And more research info vaguely on thread topic:
https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...cient-insights-are-transforming-todays-church

"Our ideas of saints are always easier to handle than the reality; they do what we expect of them. The Francis we picture is a man we can easily imagine inviting to tea. The saint might tuck a napkin in his lap and mention the lovely songs the birds were singing outside. Perhaps he would even interpret them for us, since he seems to understand their language. But if you invited the real Francis to tea, he might prefer to work in the kitchen or maybe even beg his bread from passers-by before joining you inside. His clothes might be ragged and dirty, since he had little concern for presentation. The neighbors would stare."

"Francis often was uncertain; he frequently questioned his own motives; those are reasons why we like him so much. And those quixotic, “saintly” things he did were simply, in his time, experiments in Gospel living. Francis’ life demonstrates that Christianity is much more than institutions, catechisms and sacraments—it is also techniques and practices."

“How?” We must look to the past, not simply to learn what happened, but to understand ourselves in the present. Let us continue to look to St. Francis of Assisi. And let us see that, ........, (Break),..., perhaps the transformation that happened 800 years ago is still happening today."


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## Sunny (Aug 3, 2021)

> "Sometimes faith matters more than facts", (or what is taken as a fact in this sceptical world).



Graham, that means absolutely nothing to a modern, rational mind. In fact, it sounds like the opposite of sanity.  When dealing with a lethal virus, we can have all the faith in the world that there's an evil demon out there spewing it out, because he wants to do away with humankind. And if we turn around three times and utter a magic incantation we have faith that we won't get sick, or will get cured.

Or we can believe in the facts demonstrated by medical science, and get the damn vaccine already. It works.


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## jerry old (Aug 3, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Graham, that means absolutely nothing to a modern, rational mind. In fact, it sounds like the opposite of sanity.  When dealing with a lethal virus, we can have all the faith in the world that there's an evil demon out there spewing it out, because he wants to do away with humankind. And if we turn around three times and utter a magic incantation we have faith that we won't get sick, or will get cured.
> 
> Or we can believe in the facts demonstrated by medical science, and get the damn vacci



I quit posting on religious questions sometime ago; however, there is always room for humor when we get all sweaty with our opinions.

You think i should tell Sunny: their are a lot of folks lacking rational minds.  Yep, afraid it's true: these are the folks you see raising hell
at dept stores, burger joints, blaming a minimum wage worker for doing as their told.
When we go out in public we must realize that most of the people we encounter are lunatics.

You can purchase Anti-lunatic pills at War-Marts, if you don't take them you become one (that's what it says on the package).

I meant to post this earlier, but it would have interrupted my turning around three time and spitting.
I'm giving serious consideration to going to Turkey and studying the "Whirling Dervishes;" these folks seem to have this whirling down pat.


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## Jennina (Aug 4, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Funnily enough I was challenged as to whether I was a Christian at the weekend, by some one using "facts" you could say, against me.
> You could argue too, the basic tenets of the Christian faith I might wish to consider "open to interpretation", (like the virgin birth), are, as you would probably agree, matters of faith, not necessarily fact, (a former bishop of Durham famously being equivocal about his belief in that tenet thirty odd years ago too).
> My interpretation of the pastors message is the man might not have meant, "All facts don't matter", just, "Sometimes faith matters more than facts", (or what is taken as a fact in this sceptical world).


So, do you believe that?  What are the instances when  faith matters more than facts?   I'm trying to understand the thought process behind it. 

I think healthy skepticism is good btw.


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## Irwin (Aug 4, 2021)

Jennina said:


> So, do you believe that?  What are the instances when  faith matters more than facts?   I'm trying to understand the thought process behind it.
> 
> I think healthy skepticism is good btw.


I could see where your situation was so bad that to maintain your sanity and will to live, having faith in some supreme being might help you through it. An example might be being a prisoner of war or maybe caught up in some natural disaster... or having a serious injury or ailment.

It's purely a placebo effect, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


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## grahamg (Aug 4, 2021)

Jennina said:


> So, do you believe that?  What are the instances when  faith matters more than facts?   I'm trying to understand the thought process behind it.
> I think healthy skepticism is good btw.


I'm not sure I have a good example for you, of an occasion when having faith in something might matter more than details or "facts", (unless perhaps I think a bit harder?), but for now I'd say this.

I once had a discussion with someone about whether a parent might wish to be given all the details of the unfortunate circumstances or cause of, the death of their child.

In my view, knowing everything that went wrong, when its too late to make any difference, isn't necessarily a good thing. That is compared to knowing or "having faith" you'd done everything in your power for your child whilst they were alive. Similarly whether the hospital did everything in their power to help your child, important as this is of course, doesn't bring anyone's child back obviously.

When an uncle of mine accepted what I thought was slack practise in regard to his sons (my cousins) healthcare once, I didn't understand him, because I thought something could have been done about this, (though he might have known better?). 
I suppose he was demonstrating more "faith" in our health system on this occasion than I was prepared to do at the time, or he knew they'd done their best, and that you can't expect there to be no shortcomings in any system designed by man.

His sons health probably broke down because he was working too hard, but he was a grown man, married with adult children, able to make his own decisions etc. My own father however, knowing this nephew had had a life threatening illness aged thirty perhaps, felt his brother was sometimes too hard on his son, (though they worked happily together on the farm most of their lives).

There's one more story in relation to this uncle, concerning a churchman, vicar/minister, who wished to stop my uncle being a "sidesman", or helper at the local church. My uncle just ignored his efforts to make him stand down, and kept attending or helping, as he knew he'd done nothing wrong,bso defied the man, and the church authorities wisely did nothing about it, (what could they do?).

Am I making any sense to you, (I admit the last but had nothing to do with your question did it!)?


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## Della (Aug 4, 2021)

Remember when the scientists told us the sun circled the earth and that leeches were a good idea after losing a lot of blood?  Well probably not, we're old but not that old.  Still, science can be wrong and faith can let us down.  I have faith that there is a God and that he gave us brains to try and work out how to cure diseases.

 I have always thought those marquees outside churches were tacky, particularly if they include the pastor's name as though he is the star attraction.  The name of the church and the times of the services should be enough, or if the pastor must put something out there every week, a quote from Jesus would probably be best.  Too often those homemade quips that are supposed to sound clever come across as stupid or mean.


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## Capt Lightning (Aug 4, 2021)

Well, why did this 'God' allow the disease in the first place.   My parents had little ability to argue logically.  My mother would say that someone, say, who was unable to have children, that "this was just God's way".  Ah, I would say, but supposing that someone could cure that problem, would that be God's way too?  Why did this 'God' allow suffering before allowing someone to come up with a cure?    

No, it's time we dispensed with this idea of a good benevolent god.  If you did believe in a god, he/she/it would have to be a mean capricious  being who presided over a world full of suffering and injustice.


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## Irwin (Aug 4, 2021)

If it were possible for there to be a supernatural being and magic of other sorts, what's to stop the chair you're sitting on from turning into a crocodile? Living in a world where literally anything is possible would be a frickin' disaster!    

That's the problem I have with movies about time travel. It's just not in any way possible for us to do that ever. It would be total chaos.


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## grahamg (Aug 4, 2021)

Della said:


> Remember when the scientists told us the sun circled the earth and that leeches were a good idea after losing a lot of blood?  Well probably not, we're old but not that old.  Still, science can be wrong and faith can let us down.  I have faith that there is a God and that he gave us brains to try and work out how to cure diseases.
> I have always thought those marquees outside churches were tacky, particularly if they include the pastor's name as though he is the star attraction.  The name of the church and the times of the services should be enough, or if the pastor must put something out there every week, a quote from Jesus would probably be best.  Too often those homemade quips that are supposed to sound clever come across as stupid or mean.


They say that four hundred years ago the need for vitamin C was first understood, and sailors began to be given some lime juice to supply their needs, when on very long sea journeys. It still took the British Admiralty thirty years to enact a policy to give sailors the vitamin C routinely, (in the manner described), when on these very long journeys in their sail boats.
Where does God come into this kind of thing you may ask, and I don't know the answer. The disregard for the lives of our own people, or simple stupidity, and blind faith in the leadership by us humans, and the divine right of kings to rule maybe, meant no one dared ask questions(?), was perhaps all that could be said.
You could argue God intervened in some way when our Admiralty changed their policies, but I agree you could equally argue the opposite.
BTW I still like those signs outside churches, especially those written to make us think, or challenge us, (and going to church you are, or maybe should be equally challenged as to your own thinking and life in my view).


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## Della (Aug 5, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> Well, why did this 'God' allow the disease in the first place.   My parents had little ability to argue logically.  My mother would say that someone, say, who was unable to have children, that "this was just God's way".  Ah, I would say, but supposing that someone could cure that problem, would that be God's way too?  Why did this 'God' allow suffering before allowing someone to come up with a cure?
> 
> No, it's time we dispensed with this idea of a good benevolent god.  If you did believe in a god, he/she/it would have to be a mean capricious  being who presided over a world full of suffering and injustice.


Oh Capt Lightning, you ask the question that has stumped the theologians for centuries and since it follows my post I feel compelled to try and answer and I'm totally unqualified.

I can only tell you how I explain it to myself which is probably wrong.  I think God created the world and put us in it over six days when "day" might have meant "age" as in stone age.   I think lots of the stories in the Old Testament are the way things had been explained by word of mouth over the centuries, fact and legend combined.

After that God gave us free will and stepped back, letting natural law have its way. He is not a giant child with his Play Family Village making cars crash. He is a spiritual entity who connects with us through our minds.  So if we hit an icy patch on the road Jesus cannot actually take the wheel, although if we send up a quick prayer he might stop our panic so we can remember what to do. If we end up in the hospital he can help us deal with the pain.  So disease happens through mans' choices and environmental and evolutionary changes. God didn't cause it but he helps us handle it.  We can pray that he leads a researcher toward a cure or we can pray that our lives are over quickly and we join him in the spirit world we call Heaven.

I know that doesn't answer your questions, but it's as close as I can get, others can do much better.    I just remind myself that now we see as through a glass darkly and trust that it will be made clear to us someday.  Or not.  For now I choose to believe, it has always felt true to me.


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## Jennina (Aug 5, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I'm not sure I have a good example for you, of an occasion when having faith in something might matter more than details or "facts", (unless perhaps I think a bit harder?), but for now I'd say this.
> 
> I once had a discussion with someone about whether a parent might wish to be given all the details of the unfortunate circumstances or cause of, the death of their child.
> 
> ...



You're right.  You have to try harder. Dude, you lost me.  Come on, you can do better than that.  ( Just kidding. I can't access the emojis!)

Sorry about your uncle. Not sure I fully understood his dilemma but it seems to me he just lacked info on how to move forward?  

I think in both your examples, there was a hint of resignation to the reality of the situation of their child. They didn't deny nor minimize the value of those facts in favor of faith like the good pastor suggested. 

Let's agree on terminologies lest our discussion goes haywire. 

Faith = faith in god. After all, this is what pastors usually mean when they speak of faith. 

Facts =  scientific facts,  data  based on research such as polls,  and other info that are proven to be true/  existing or known to have happened.  such as  Biden stutters, Trump's face is too orangey. Biden tripped as he boarded Air force 1. Trump walked with a tissue stuck on his shoe as he boarded air force 1. 

Also since we are pitting faith against facts, can we use facts from the point of view of evidence? 

Back to the drawing board?  

When does faith in god matter more than evidence? 

Btw , I stand corrected. You were right. There are other interpretations of what he said. But for now, let's follow your train of thought. 

PS  Was intrigued by your statement about the virgin birth. What's your interpretation of it,?


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## Jennina (Aug 5, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I could see where your situation was so bad that to maintain your sanity and will to live, having faith in some supreme being might help you through it. An example might be being a prisoner of war or maybe caught up in some natural disaster... or having a serious injury or ailment.
> 
> It's purely a placebo effect, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Oh I totally agree with you in that sense. 100%

But going back to the good pastor, not sure that's what he meant. I think that that statement was made within the context of getting covid vaccines. "God is my Pfizer, I shall not want the jab."


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## grahamg (Aug 5, 2021)

Jennina said:


> You're right.  You have to try harder. Dude, you lost me.  Come on, you can do better than that.  ( Just kidding. I can't access the emojis!)
> Sorry about your uncle. Not sure I fully understood his dilemma but it seems to me he just lacked info on how to move forward?
> I think in both your examples, there was a hint of resignation to the reality of the situation of their child. They didn't deny nor minimize the value of those facts in favor of faith like the good pastor suggested.
> Let's agree on terminologies lest our discussion goes haywire.
> ...


Very good post!  
On virgin birth, I just don't think its necessary for me to believe this occurred.

I think my uncle did move forward, and you've helped explain why he didn't make an issue concerning the health care system and his son, it was his way of moving forward!

You've done well by laying out definitions, as my examples were about faith in people behaving well, so a faith in "human goodness/kindness", rather than God per se, (you could argue this is due to God working within them I suppose?).

Have I got a better example, where faith matters more than facts, or faith trumps facts, (btw, don't you ever get bored with facts, and just wish to believe something will turn out okay?)?

I suppose you could say, if facts are all that matter, then everyone in this world should be an atheist, because the existence of God can't be proven, (a negative argument I accept).

Do you think "love" matters in this world, (another thing that can't be proven to exist)?

Is it a fact you've been loved, and if you hadn't been, then you wouldn't be the person you are today, (ditto myself of course)?

I know I'm being "woolly" here, as I can't give you a known fact to challenge using faith alone.

Can I throw in this thought, my ex claimed after she left me, that our marriage was a mistake, hence our child was the result of a "mistake", (which I interpret as meaning there was no love between us, or certainly on her part). I wonder whether she claimed when she left the next guy, after a twenty year marriage, and creating two more children, that this too was the result of a mistake(?).

I believe the love I once felt for my wife played a part in the way I was able to love my child, though even this didn't just happen or appear when she was born. A complete stranger put this thought in my mind and helped give me the confidence I needed I could love my child, "Don't worry about being a dad, it just comes naturally"!

"Facts" and psychology might explain all this, and you could say (I admit), my meeting this guy in a bar in Dublin was pure chance, so no God at work at all, but had he not wished to help me, then I might never have come to the realisation I came to, and become able to love my child(?).

Its not much of an argument, but its the best I have right now!


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## Jennina (Aug 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Very good post!
> On virgin birth, I just don't think its necessary for me to believe this occurred.
> 
> I think my uncle did move forward, and you've helped explain why he didn't make an issue concerning the health care system and his son, it was his way of moving forward!
> ...



Yes I think there are people who become good because of their belief in a god. At the same time,  I think people can be good without a god..  

You've probably seen acts of kindness among animals, don't you think we also possess an inherent goodness in us?

Let's see, if there were only atheists in this world a lot of things wouldn't have happened - 9/11, bombing of Manchester, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, no jihad and other holy wars, the Inquisition and witch hunting, persecution of gay men,  just to name a few. The most atrocious crimes have been committed in the name of god. 

Do I get bored with facts? Depends on the topic. Some are definitely boring but I would.not chuck them out the window or deny they exist because they're boring. 

Imagine a world without facts. There would be no learnings and everyday would be like "50 first dates." Did you watch that movie?/ Without facts, what's left are guesses, fiction, lies. How can anyone hope  for things to turn out okay in that environment?

Sorry to hear about your situation with your ex wife. One thing I've learned is never take personally the words of an angry person.  Sometimes they'd say the nastiest stuff they don't mean to hurt you. Anger is masked pain. 

Your daughter needs to feel you're always there for her. Her relationship with you will affect how she perceives men in the future. Just enjoy your moments together and don't be hard on yourself. Down the road when she becomes a parent, she will forgive you for your shortcomings.  Oh and  don't badmouth your ex to your daughter.

Anyway, yes you are wooly.  Dude, you're good at deflecting;  but i must admit you brought up some  interesting topics. Why don't you just admit that the reason you can't come up with an example is that the pastor's message was nonsense at best? Go ahead. Concede. I won't tell anyone.

Finally, are you an anti vaxxer? I won't judge you. I mean, not to your face.  If you are, for your daughter's sake, just try to learn more about the pros and cons of the vaccine. Keep an open mind. Your daughter deserves to have you for a long time.


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## Sunny (Aug 6, 2021)

Yes, I'm glad we finally got back to that church sign.  I think we are giving too much credit to the "religious" philosophy behind it. I suspect that it's all about politics, nothing more.

But otherwise, what an interesting discussion, even though it's pretty much off topic.


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## grahamg (Aug 6, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Yes, I'm glad we finally got back to that church sign.  I think we are giving too much credit to the "religious" philosophy behind it. I suspect that it's all about politics, nothing more.
> But otherwise, what an interesting discussion, even though it's pretty much off topic.


You're right about the "off topic" remark, (apologies, but I'm about to do it again in response to above post), though I'd leave the dear old pastors sign as simply an attempt to grab attention!

Here's an idea, why doesn't anyone interested go and listen to the preacher before condemning him?


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## grahamg (Aug 6, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Yes I think there are people who become good because of their belief in a god. At the same time,  I think people can be good without a god..
> You've probably seen acts of kindness among animals, don't you think we also possess an inherent goodness in us?
> Let's see, if there were only atheists in this world a lot of things wouldn't have happened - 9/11, bombing of Manchester, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, no jihad and other holy wars, the Inquisition and witch hunting, persecution of gay men,  just to name a few. The most atrocious crimes have been committed in the name of god.
> Do I get bored with facts? Depends on the topic. Some are definitely boring but I would.not chuck them out the window or deny they exist because they're boring.
> ...


On this occasion "no woolliness" for you!
1). People can most certainly be good without having any belief in a God, and "inherent goodness" is correct, (found in all kinds of people, sometimes unexpectedly).
2). You state as "fact" things that are contentious to say there least, and are guilty of rewriting history in my view. Many bad things can be laid at the door of organised religion, though you cannot state those bad things had no other possible cause, or contributing factors.
3). No need to imagine a world without facts, I believe in scientific methodology, vaccines, evolution (and so on).
4). I think I've given good enough reasons why the pastor did what he did, (no doubt in collaboration and agreement from others), so no concession I'm afraid!
5). My daughter is wrong to treat someone who loved her as an irrelevance, but that's a subject for another thread, (lest we cop more flack in that regard!).


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## Sunny (Aug 6, 2021)

OK, let's think for a moment about the church sign, and what it really means. There could be a smidgen of truth in it, if we specify what we mean by "facts."

The example given by some in this discussion, that in the aftermath of an unspeakable tragedy, like losing a child, a person might find more comfort in their religious faith than in knowing all the little facts involved in that death. The little facts would probably just make them feel worse.

But what if their child was murdered?  Wouldn't it "matter" a great deal for them to know the facts involved in the case?  Would it be better for them to 1) give the investigating detectives all the facts at their disposal, and to insist on a thorough investigation of those facts, in order to figure out what happened, and who the murderer was, than to 2) turn to "faith" because the facts don't matter, their child is gone anyway?

And that's only one example.

In the case of the sign, I very strongly suspect that the subject is not who murdered somebody's child, but whether or not the Covid vaccine and masks help us not to get the disease, or to get a much milder disease, and whether they matter a lot more than having this church's version of "faith."  The sign is advertising following ignorance and blind belief, rather than science and the statistics of life and death. The word "Covid" is not displayed on the sign, but it's really screaming at us. And this is not religious philosophy, it's thinly disguised politics.


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## grahamg (Aug 6, 2021)

Sunny said:


> OK, let's think for a moment about the church sign, and what it really means. There could be a smidgen of truth in it, if we specify what we mean by "facts."
> The example given by some in this discussion, that in the aftermath of an unspeakable tragedy, like losing a child, a person might find more comfort in their religious faith than in knowing all the little facts involved in that death. The little facts would probably just make them feel worse.
> But what if their child was murdered?  Wouldn't it "matter" a great deal for them to know the facts involved in the case?  Would it be better for them to 1) give the investigating detectives all the facts at their disposal, and to insist on a thorough investigation of those facts, in order to figure out what happened, and who the murderer was, than to 2) turn to "faith" because the facts don't matter, their child is gone anyway?
> And that's only one example.
> In the case of the sign, I very strongly suspect that the subject is not who murdered somebody's child, but whether or not the Covid vaccine and masks help us not to get the disease, or to get a much milder disease, and whether they matter a lot more than having this church's version of "faith."  The sign is advertising following ignorance and blind belief, rather than science and the statistics of life and death. The word "Covid" is not displayed on the sign, but it's really screaming at us. And this is not religious philosophy, it's thinly disguised politics.


I do doubt your interpretation of the meaning behind this church sign, (as I've said), I cannot believe the focus of any church would be on anything other than religious matters, and drawing attention to those, occasionally using slightly shocking or challenging statements.
As far as your comments about whether a murder should be thoroughly investigated, well how could anyone argue with that, but at the same time I'd expect professionals to try to protect the parents where possible, from unnecessarily gruesome aspects or details of the case.


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## grahamg (Aug 6, 2021)

A few more signs for everyone's delectation and delight:


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## Jennina (Aug 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> On this occasion "no woolliness" for you!
> 1). People can most certainly be good without having any belief in a God, and "inherent goodness" is correct, (found in all kinds of people, sometimes unexpectedly).
> 2). You state as "fact" things that are contentious to say there least, and are guilty of rewriting history in my view. Many bad things can be laid at the door of organised religion, though you cannot state those bad things had no other possible cause, or contributing factors.
> 3). No need to imagine a world without facts, I believe in scientific methodology, vaccines, evolution (and so on).
> ...


Oh a numbered reply!   I've a short span of attention so this is good for me. 

1). Agreed

2)   I gave a list of actual historical events that were instigated because of religion.  Take away the instigator and they wouldn't have happened.   Not sure why that is considered rewriting history. That was just using logical reasoning on a hypothetical.  If Bach was never born,  you wouldn't have Orchestral Suite no. 3. 

As to whether there are contributing factors that justify those events, that's another story. 

However, to be fair,  I should also add that there are a lot of good things that happened because of religion. But, that doesn't change the fact that religion is divisive. 

And yes, religion and politics are always contentious topics.  And for as long as people can disagree without disrespecting each other, no topic should be off limits. 

3) I was totally wrong, then,  about you. I got  the wrong impression of  you  based on  some of your comments. 

4) Okay I'll lay off your case.  But if you come up with an example, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. 

5) I misunderstood your situation with your daughter.  Hope you resolve things with your daughter. It'd be  a shame if you   missed the opportunity to get to know a person who is "half you."


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## Jennina (Aug 6, 2021)

grahamg said:


> A few more signs for everyone's delectation and delight:
> 
> View attachment 177366
> 
> ...


Clever and witty.


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## grahamg (Aug 6, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Oh a numbered reply! (Break) 1). Agreed.





Jennina said:


> 2)   I gave a list of actual historical events that were instigated because of religion.  Take away the instigator and they wouldn't have happened.   Not sure why that is considered rewriting history. That was just using logical reasoning on a hypothetical.  If Bach was never born,  you wouldn't have Orchestral Suite no. 3. As to whether there are contributing factors that justify those events, that's another story. However, to be fair,  I should also add that there are a lot of good things that happened because of religion. But, that doesn't change the fact that religion is divisive.
> 
> And yes, religion and politics are always contentious topics.  And for as long as people can disagree without disrespecting each other, no topic should be off limits.
> 
> ...


We're nearly "sorted" here aren't we!
Not sure the birth of a composer makes your point as you suggest, or according to your logic. You could argue terrorism wouldn't occur if someone had not been born, or all those guilty of a terrorist act were not born, (like Nelson Mandela).

We can agree religion is, or can be divisive, (hard to argue otherwise between religions, or different denominations in the same religion). 
However, I'd argue too, there are times when the differences in thinking between religious thinkers and groups can have positive aspects. 

When working in Oxford a couple of years ago I was able to take advantage of the "open colleges" weekend, and visited three ancient colleges in one day. I learnt rival colleges were set up to counter the thinking or ideology being promulgated in another Oxford college.

Who would have thought there were people living back then, six or seven hundred years ago, so displeased with the views of other Christians, they had the energy, motivation etc., to set up a rival college to oppose them?

It says a lot about the "power of ideas", maybe too about the need to get others to agree with you, needing a college to ensure this. However, you'd perhaps still contend the world would have progressed as it has done, or just as well, if everyone throughout human history has been an atheist, with everyone agreeing with each other on the topic(?).


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## grahamg (Aug 8, 2021)

I did a bit more research on the OP sign and came up with this:

https://randalrauser.com/2021/03/be...e-church-sign-try-interpreting-it-charitably/

QUOTE:
" A friend of mine just sent me this picture of a church sign. While this seems like an easy target for fundamentalist irrationalism, there is a very plausible charitable interpretation. (By the way, given the number of fake church signs out there, I did a quick google search and confirmed that Paoli Wesleyan is, at least, a real church.)

As for the message on the sign itself, I will say that I am not a fan of it because it is prone to misunderstanding. That said, I do believe there is a rather obvious charitable interpretation.

The key is to recognize that the word “fact” is not only defined in common parlance as a true claim. It also is sometimes defined as _a claim that is *believed* to be true_. For example, Dictionary.com offers the following as there fourth definition of 'fact': “something said to be true or supposed to have happened.” The dictionary then gives this example: “The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.” In this usage, a “fact” is a claim which is presented as true but which may actually be false.

As for the word “faith”, that refers to the act of exercising trust in someone or something.

And so, we can now finally close in on our interpretation. The church sign is saying the following:

“If you have sufficient trust in someone or something, apparent counterevidence to that testimonial witness will not be sufficient to overwhelm your trust in it.”

And that, it turns out, is a perfectly sensible claim. So here’s the lesson: before you make fun of the church sign, try interpreting it charitably."


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## Warrigal (Aug 8, 2021)

Yes, from the Latin - the very popular school motto "Facta non verba" means "deeds not words".

In that sense it is in line with Paul's teaching that is is by faith, not by deeds, that we are saved.
Modern theologians argue that Jesus preached that both are important.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 8, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Let's see, if there were only atheists in this world a lot of things wouldn't have happened - 9/11, bombing of Manchester, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, no jihad and other holy wars, the Inquisition and witch hunting, persecution of gay men, just to name a few. The most atrocious crimes have been committed in the name of god.


As a "non-believer" (more agnostic than atheist) let me offer an alternative opinion here  -  On balance I think religion has done and still does our civilization a lot of good.  Religion has taught and still teaches us how to treat strangers, and treating strangers civilly was essential to the development of civilization.  I agree that religion has lead to some really awful things, but not as often as it has done us good.  I like Jered Diamond's thinking on the subject:





and

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/j...e-look-at-religion-over-the-course-of-history


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## Jennina (Aug 11, 2021)

grahamg said:


> We're nearly "sorted" here aren't we!
> Not sure the birth of a composer makes your point as you suggest, or according to your logic. You could argue terrorism wouldn't occur if someone had not been born, or all those guilty of a terrorist act were not born, (like Nelson Mandela).
> 
> We can agree religion is, or can be divisive, (hard to argue otherwise between religions, or different denominations in the same religion).
> ...


1) Sorted?  Sorta, I guess. You still owe me an example. I still don't get when faith in god matters more than evidence? Cos usually you turn to faith when you don't understand something.  Why turn a blind eye on evidence?  You have the knowledge in front of you and you choose to be clueless? I can't wrap my head around that.  I really want to understand but I can't. 

2) Yes you're right. Bach wasn't a stellar example. I'd thought of terrorism but there's a lot of that committed by some religious groups. So, it would have been redundant. I happened to be listening to Bach at the time, so it was a low hanging fruit, so to speak.  Same logical reasoning : Take away the composer and the music disappears from the timeline of music history. 

3) Now I don't know if there's another Nelson Mandela somewhere;  but the Nelson Mandela that I know was a social rights activist not a terrorist.  And although, I dont advocate violence, fighting against social injustice is hardly terrorism.  I must admit though that  one man's terrorist is another man's revolutionist. So, if you're anti apartheid, Mandela was a hero. 

4) in general, i totally agree that it's healthy to have different points of view. That's how we progress. . But our differences should encourage discourse with the aim of achieving synthesis and a better understanding of one another; not divide us.  I still don't see the benefits of having so many religions with each of them saying they're the only true religion and everyone else will go to hell. Enlighten me. 

6)  This is my stand on religion, though.  You can worship your god if it serves the purpose of making you a "moral person" and giving you peace of mind.  But you don't get to kill someone if they're  gay in the name of  god.  You don't get to stop others  from using protection if people around them  are dying of aids. I'm not saying religion hasn't contributed anything to society. Off the top of my head, they've contributed greatly to the arts and to  charity/humanitarian aid.  I'm sure there's more. 

8)  You worked in Oxford?  Cool! Did you teach there?  ("We're not worthy") You're full of surprises which makes   it  hard to read you. 

Anyway, you owe me an "example" . And should you wish to challenge me further, please note I won't be able to reply promptly these days. Busy with some stuff.  But I will reply. Just don't hold your breath. 

Meantime, stay safe!


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## grahamg (Aug 11, 2021)

Jennina said:


> 1) Sorted?  Sorta, I guess. You still owe me an example. I still don't get when faith in god matters more than evidence? Cos usually you turn to faith when you don't understand something.  Why turn a blind eye on evidence?  You have the knowledge in front of you and you choose to be clueless? I can't wrap my head around that.  I really want to understand but I can't.
> 
> 2) Yes you're right. Bach wasn't a stellar example. I'd thought of terrorism but there's a lot of that committed by some religious groups. So, it would have been redundant. I happened to be listening to Bach at the time, so it was a low hanging fruit, so to speak.  Same logical reasoning : Take away the composer and the music disappears from the timeline of music history.
> 
> ...


A very quick response may surprise you, and you could be "still around".

I do owe you a better example than I've given you, concerning when faith matters more than facts, and I'll have to disaapount you again because I haven't found one yet, or at least another one that isn't " woolly thinking"!

Mandela a total hero to me and most of mankind I'd guess, but did conspire to blow up utilities in South Africa, during the 1960s, and feared as a terrorist back then by many in the UK, though I for one didn't know of his legal training, and working with Walter Sissolo to help impoverished people in his country, so descriminated against.

All I did in Oxford was work as a glorified cleaner, at very important government run sites, but a responsible job nonetheless, and it allowed me to witness the work of the great minds, or academics and the dedication being shown by so many.

On religion, if anyone accepts my argument most of us probably wouldn't be here today if thousands of years ago people set up and followed the great religions of the world, (though you don't accept my argument, I accept that of course).

I do admire your "directness, and certainty", even though I doubt what you say quite often.


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## Jennina (Aug 11, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> As a "non-believer" (more agnostic than atheist) let me offer an alternative opinion here  -  On balance I think religion has done and still does our civilization a lot of good.  Religion has taught and still teaches us how to treat strangers, and treating strangers civilly was essential to the development of civilization.  I agree that religion has lead to some really awful things, but not as often as it has done us good.  I like Jered Diamond's thinking on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi. Same here. Agnostic, not yet an atheist. 

I will watch the videos after I post my reply to you as I'm curious if they would make me change my position. 

Yes, I believe religion has contributed to civilization in the field of arts and humanitarian aid. 

In terms of civility and  morality, ( Thou shall not kill/lie. Honor your parents, etc.) 
 I think we would have come up with those on our own anyway even  without the 10 commandments.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know my Bible too well but the holy book has guidelines on how to  treat  slaves?  And it was us mortals who decided slavery is wrong because of  human rights.


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## Jennina (Aug 11, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I do admire your "directness, and certainty", even though I doubt what you say quite often.


That made me LOL


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## grahamg (Aug 11, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Hi. Same here. Agnostic, not yet an atheist. I will watch the videos after I post my reply to you as I'm curious if they would make me change my position.
> Yes, I believe religion has contributed to civilization in the field of arts and humanitarian aid. In terms of civility and  morality, ( Thou shall not kill/lie. Honor your parents, etc.) I think we would have come up with those on our own anyway even  without the 10 commandments.
> Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know my Bible too well but the holy book has guidelines on how to  treat  slaves?  And it was us mortals who decided slavery is wrong because of  human rights.


Relieved to hear you don't know your bible too well, (that explains a lot,....., just being cheeky, you know as much as I Gunga Din.  !).

"We", (whoever we might be considered to be here?), probably did think up the commandments you mentioned, as someone or more likely a group, must have thought them up, and agreed them.

A churchman once told me to try to live your life doing what you wanted to do, and do what you "have to do" when you want to do it!
Many can't do this I know, and in a sense become "wage slaves" don't they, (not quite so bad as the real thing I accept!). However, it won't be diifult to pick out statements you don't like, and no one agrees with today, "BUT" in doing so you'll be ignoring vast, even endless meaning and wisdom.


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## grahamg (Aug 12, 2021)

Jennina said:


> 8)  You worked in Oxford?  Cool! Did you teach there?  ("We're not worthy") You're full of surprises which makes   it  hard to read you.


See photos below, (taken a couple of years ago):


Jennina said:


> (1) Sorted?  Sorta, I guess. You still owe me an example. I still don't get when faith in god matters more than evidence? Cos usually you turn to faith when you don't understand something.  Why turn a blind eye on evidence?  You have the knowledge in front of you and you choose to be clueless? I can't wrap my head around that.  I really want to understand but I can't.
> 
> 2) Yes you're right. Bach wasn't a stellar example. I'd thought of terrorism but there's a lot of that committed by some religious groups. So, it would have been redundant. I happened to be listening to Bach at the time, so it was a low hanging fruit, so to speak.  Same logical reasoning : Take away the composer and the music disappears from the timeline of music history.
> 
> ...


Broad Street, and Balliol college, Mrs. Thatcher was notable student there,                                             
                                       (street where Thomas Cranmer was burnt at the stake)

Famous bridge, opposite Bodleian library:


University church, (opposite controversial statue of Cecil Rhodes):


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## Jennina (Aug 12, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> As a "non-believer" (more agnostic than atheist) let me offer an alternative opinion here  -  On balance I think religion has done and still does our civilization a lot of good.  Religion has taught and still teaches us how to treat strangers, and treating strangers civilly was essential to the development of civilization.  I agree that religion has lead to some really awful things, but not as often as it has done us good.  I like Jered Diamond's thinking on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the vid and the article. Very informative.  I feel smarter already 

My previous statement was  religion has committed atrocities in the name of God;  but at the same time it has  done some good such as contributions to the arts and humanitarian aid.  Now I can add Diamond's utilitarian functions of religion to my list.  

As to whether the good outweighs the bad is another story.  Would be interesting to know that. 

I wish tho that he had given his views on whether he thought religion should continue to perform those functions or not.


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## Jennina (Aug 12, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Relieved to hear you don't know your bible too well, (that explains a lot,....., just being cheeky, you know as much as I Gunga Din.  !).
> 
> "We", (whoever we might be considered to be here?), probably did think up the commandments you mentioned, as someone or more likely a group, must have thought them up, and agreed them.


Ahh that one I know. God gave the ten commandments directly to Moses.


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## Jennina (Aug 12, 2021)

Nice pics! Thanks


grahamg said:


> See photos below, (taken a couple of years ago):
> 
> Broad Street, and Balliol college, Mrs. Thatcher was notable student thereView attachment 178293,
> (street where Thomas Cranmer was burnt at the stake)
> ...


----------



## grahamg (Aug 12, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Thanks for the vid and the article. Very informative.  I feel smarter already
> My previous statement was  religion has committed atrocities in the name of God;  but at the same time it has  done some good such as contributions to the arts and humanitarian aid. Now I can add Diamond's utilitarian functions of religion to my list.
> As to whether the good outweighs the bad is another story.  Would be interesting to know that. I wish tho that he had given his views on whether he thought religion should continue to perform those functions or not.


What difference would Jared Diamond expressing a view on the future of religion make to anyone, or is it of importance to yourself alone, (and the of a similar mind)?
BTW "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a quote from the bible we could all try to understand.


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## grahamg (Aug 12, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Ahh that one I know. God gave the ten commandments directly to Moses.


Perhaps not (as you know), "though if you want to believe it go ahead"!


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## Jennina (Aug 13, 2021)

grahamg said:


> What difference would Jared Diamond expressing a view on the future of religion make to anyone, or is it of importance to yourself alone, (and the of a similar mind)?
> BTW "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a quote from the bible we could all try to understand.


Huh? You lost me. 

Anyway, I  don't have a problem listening to and learning from experts as I understand some people here do based on their posts.


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## Jennina (Aug 13, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Perhaps not (as you know), "though if you want to believe it go ahead


Just meant that's what's in the bible.


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Huh? You lost me.
> 
> Anyway, I  don't have a problem listening to and learning from experts as I understand some people here do based on their posts.



Apologies, must have been in a bad humour when I posted the above!


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Just meant that's what's in the bible.


I know, but does anyone really think Moses went up a mountain and came back with commandments written on tablets of stone(?)


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## Jennina (Aug 13, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Apologies, must have been in a bad humour when I posted the above!


Or... Maybe I was bring cranky and "seniory?"


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## Jennina (Aug 13, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I know, but does anyone really think Moses went up a mountain and came back with commandments written on tablets of stone(?)


Ask any Catholic, they'll say yes. I know I believed it at one point.


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## Irwin (Aug 13, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I know, but does anyone really think Moses went up a mountain and came back with commandments written on tablets of stone(?)


It was captured on surveillance video...






It's not great quality since it's analogue (they didn't have digital HD 2,000 years ago), but you can tell what's going on.


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## Sunny (Aug 13, 2021)

LOL, Irwin!  I remember that movie.  I hope Charleton Heston's acting was better in the rest of it. He kind of looks bored to death.


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Ask any Catholic, they'll say yes. I know I believed it at one point.


I daren't ask, now you've said that, and I was with some good Catholic friends this morning, so could have done!!

Best left alone in my view.


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Jennina said:


> Or... Maybe I was bring cranky and "seniory?"


You're no age, so cant be true I'm sure.


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## Sunny (Aug 13, 2021)

The Catholics weren't the ones who made up that story.  It's in Exodus, in the Old Testament.


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Sunny said:


> The Catholics weren't the ones who made up that story.  It's in Exodus, in the Old Testament.


Many might believe it to be a factual account I suppose(?).


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## Nathan (Aug 13, 2021)

Packerjohn said:


> I never argue about religion and politics.  Why?  Because I never win!


That's not true @Packerjohn , because since you DON'T argue you're always are the winner!  

The only way to "win" an argument is to unequivocally prove your point with indisputable facts.   That will never happen in a political or religious argument, due to the strong emotional component.


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## Nathan (Aug 13, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> It is said that God helps those who help themselves. People who decide they are not going to be cautious because God is going to protect them no matter how foolish they behave are....well...foolish. God didn't say walk out in front of that bus to see if I'll work a miracle and save you from being hit. Better not to step in front of the bus. That pastor is obviously ignorant on so many levels.  I wonder how he'll feel when his parishioners get COVID and die?


The wife of a local pastor made the statement several months ago that she doesn't wear masks or will vaccinate, as her faith will protect her from Covid.  Unfortunately, her "faith" didn't protect her mother, who died this past spring.


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## Sunny (Aug 13, 2021)

Sheesh. I wonder if she's gotten vaccinated since then.


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## grahamg (Aug 13, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Sheesh. I wonder if she's gotten vaccinated since then.


Maybe not, because those who think that way probably do not have the capacity to believe they can be wrong.


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## IFortuna (Dec 18, 2021)

Victor said:


> Really, really stupid. I understand the sign. To conservative faithful believers, it is true. Facts dont matter to them. But facts s*hould* matter.


I believe the implied meaning here is that anything thought of or viewed as a fact can be overcome or transcended by faith if it is the desired outcome.
For instance, my friend had stage 4 cancer but through faith overcame that fact. I know what you are going to say.  O.K. modern medicine but at that stage, it was something more.  Consider existential symbiotic cosmology which, in my opinion, is the essence of God.  Subjective conscious volition over the physical universe through the conduit of God, in other words.


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## IFortuna (Dec 18, 2021)

Lara said:


> Well, God created science so that makes sense. Unfortunately, man has messed with God's perfect science and perfect plans. There are now natural consequences for which we must suffer.


My reply to this is: Have faith.


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## Nathan (Dec 18, 2021)

Colleen said:


> I saw an article the other day about a "pastor" that is telling his flock that masks are NOT allowed in church and if anyone comes with a mask, they will be asked to leave!
> 
> In November, our one neighbor had a big gathering for family for Thanksgiving and then Christmas. There was an elderly couple that were friends of hers that were invited> no one wore masks and never social distanced. As a matter of fact, she had told my husband and me prior to these gatherings that "If God wants me to get it (Covid) then I will but if He doesn't, He doesn't." We definitely stayed away from her and her family from then on. Anyway, the elderly man got Covid right after Christmas and died 2 days later.


At a church that our fitness group was using for class during the week:  the pastor's wife made the statement that "my faith in Jesus will protect me, won't wear a mask"...no too long after that, her own mother died of Covid.    I say: "negligent homicide".


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