# So Truly Proud of America !!!



## Elyzabeth (Dec 13, 2014)

No other country in the world would admit that perhaps they have done something wrong...

thoroughly  investigate it,

 and then disclose to the world.....

 all of the findings of the investigation.


THAT IS AMERICA,

 and that is one of the things that makes America so great !


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## QuickSilver (Dec 13, 2014)

I agree... Warts and all... I would never want to live anywhere else..


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## Debby (Dec 13, 2014)

Yeah gotta hand it to the people that commissioned the report.  Brave thing to do.


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## AprilT (Dec 13, 2014)

Agree, as said, warts and all, I haven't figured out a better alternative, for the most part, there is much to appreciate about my beloved country.


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## Elyzabeth (Dec 14, 2014)

No other country....

In the world would 

be as honest and open  about their faults as America !!!!


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 14, 2014)

Born and raised here, and will die here, wouldn't want to be in any other country.  America has more qualities than faults, IMO.  Willingness to work on one's faults is an admirable thing.


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## oakapple (Dec 14, 2014)

Unless, of course, it was all about to come into the public arena anyway? I don't blame the CIA for hitting back at the Bush administration who pretended they knew nothing. As a rule, government depts usually like to keep things under wraps until there is a danger of a leak.


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## oakapple (Dec 14, 2014)

...... and I include my own government in that statement.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 14, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> No other country....
> 
> In the world would
> 
> be as honest and open  about their faults as America !!!!



... and yet there is so much more that is still hidden ...


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## Falcon (Dec 14, 2014)

AprilT said:


> Agree, as said, warts and all, I haven't figured out a better alternative, for the most part, there is much to appreciate about my beloved country.


  Just what IS your beloved country?  You never did say as far as I can tell from your profile.


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## BobF (Dec 14, 2014)

And why not keep hidden our military secrets and locations of supplies with very dangerous items from the nosey ones that really care less about our entire countries safety than their own bragging rights.


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## AprilT (Dec 14, 2014)

Falcon said:


> Just what IS your beloved country?  You never did say as far as I can tell from your profile.



Get a life and stop trying to instigate.


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## Falcon (Dec 14, 2014)

Elyzabeth, Thanks for your opinion of USA. I'm proud to be a member and not afraid to say so.

 I feel the same about YOUR country, having been there and hope to visit again in the near future.


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## Debby (Dec 14, 2014)

I came across the following article that talks about Canadian involvement in the US torture program and knowing that my government was actively involved does not make me proud.  http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/12/13/cana-d13.html

In one case, our Supreme Court found in favour of 'the prisoner' Maher Arar and awarded him $10,000,000 recompense for my government setting him up to be tortured for a year in Syria where he gave false confessions as a result of the abuse he endured.

We also passed along detainees to American military as well as Afghani's, even though our military knew there was a strong likelihood they would be tortured.  This is a violation of the Geneva Convention.  And apparently 74 US flights heading for those 'black sites' stopped over in Canada with the full knowledge of their purpose by our government and RCMP.

The only reason that I'm mentioning this is to head off any accusations (yet again) that I'm just hating on the USA.  I'm not, but I am 'hating on' abuse, illegal behaviour, lying, etc.  Like I've said repeatedly, I don't think this sort of behaviour is acceptable regardless of who is doing it and the only way society evolves is if we face the darkness together and say 'no more'.


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## BobF (Dec 14, 2014)

Well, you are still missing the intent of the word torture still.   The US had our courts determine what would be legally declared to be torture and what we did with the water boards and other items did not meet the definition of torture.   There has been from the beginning those that never want to accept and agree with our courts and their idea of torture.   Sad that some think be kept in isolation, fed little, forced to stand, etc. is not definitely torture by our courts definitions and approvals.


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## BobF (Dec 14, 2014)

Debby said:


> Yeah gotta hand it to the people that commissioned the report.  Brave thing to do.



Unfortunately this report was only put together by the far left Democrats and not once shared and edited with all folks from the government.   There were no interviews with actual government officials or military or legal at all, as I have understood it to be.   Certainly not a real and valid showing of data and opinions at all.   It was not a brave thing to do at all and our current defensive folks are very concerned about follow up from some of the radical groups around the world.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 15, 2014)

And rectal hydration was just offering a drink of water through a different orifice...


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## QuickSilver (Dec 15, 2014)

This matter of rectal feeding...  IS BS....   These prisoners were not being fed.. they were being RAPED.  It was solely for pain and humiliation and torture.  For one thing, medically, you can not FEED a person through the rectum.  Digestion takes place starting in the stomach... and the vast majority of nutrient absorption takes place in the small intestine..  NOT the colon.  The colon is for reabsorption of water and some electrolytes and for the passage of waste.  So when Cheney flaps his jaw about "medical" reasons for rectal feeding, HE IS LYING!   but what else is new.. right?


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

BobF said:


> Unfortunately this report was only put together by the far left Democrats and not once shared and edited with all folks from the government.   There were no interviews with actual government officials or military or legal at all, as I have understood it to be.   Certainly not a real and valid showing of data and opinions at all.   It was not a brave thing to do at all and our current defensive folks are very concerned about follow up from some of the radical groups around the world.




The report was based on the reading of 6,000,000 CIA documents that were written by CIA agents about the things they were doing to prisoners.  I would think studying their own words, thoughts(?), writings would make it pretty clear what was done and the state of mind by those who were doing it.

The following link is a little Q & A in the NY Times.  It mentions the 6 mill. documents, and the 6,000 page report done by Democrats and it also mentions that the Republicans chose not to participate.  So it would seem that working together via a JOINT committee on this report wasn't important to them.  That being the case, the Democrats can hardly be held responsible for that decision.  

Also Matt Taibbi (renowned investigative journalist) did a piece on the ten weirdest things that the torturers apparently enjoyed doing a lot.  See second link.  And finally, the last link is the report itself if anyone is interested in wading through it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/us/politics/q-and-a-about-the-torture-report.html

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-the-senate-report-on-torture-20141210?page=2

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

BobF said:


> Well, you are still missing the intent of the word torture still.   The US had our courts determine what would be legally declared to be torture and what we did with the water boards and other items did not meet the definition of torture.   There has been from the beginning those that never want to accept and agree with our courts and their idea of torture.   Sad that some think be kept in isolation, fed little, forced to stand, etc. is not definitely torture by our courts definitions and approvals.




It is very easy, as we sit in our comfy chairs and with visions of 'real' torture (the rack, the Iron Maiden, etc.) dancing like sugar plums in our heads, to dismiss what was done to those people as insignificant.  But to suggest that because a committee approved those 'inconveniences' and declared them not to be (real) torture makes any of them actually not torture is to ignore the obvious which is that if the same things were done to you or one of your soldiers by another government, you'd be incensed.

And isn't one of the points of discussion that if an individual(group) is going to take the high moral ground, we expect them to not be engaging in the very acts they decry?  If some pastor was known for pontificating on the evils of child porn or use of prostitutes and then it was found that he was engaging in those acts, would you be so easily accepting or would you point to his rhetoric and the obvious mismatch of his actions?


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

One reason there were only Democrats wanting to release this nonsense, is that most of the rest of the folks felt that what happened in the early terror days was the honest feeling of most folks for the early years after the New York, Pennsylvania, and Washington DC, activities by the attackers.   For many years the fear was great and we even got support in the Congress for much of what was going on.   To apply today's popular opinions to what happened years back is wrong and the facts for much should likely not been released publicly for many years to come.    For our safety, and for the not yet ended activities, much of this could have been kept for future release.   As I have read, much of this activity had been ended some years back but the many battles still continue and we could have kept quiet for longer times.   

Your ideas are yours to keep, but for many folks in the US and around the world, this one sided report is wrong and definitely wrongly exposed as those battles still continue and have recently been getting worse.   What you do believe is yours to believe.   But lots of others, including the political groups that were not agreeing to release all these privately put together ideas, and get down to proper descriptions of what and why and when.    Ignoring that the Democrats of those early years did support these actions and now making noises about putting so many folks on trial for so called errors of those early years, is both not true or necessary and should never have happened.

Why should anyone bother to read what has been reported to be a one sided report.   Your analogies are really pretty bad and not at all connected to the release.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

So in other words you aren't interested in the moral high ground and integrity?  And you make excuses for not educating yourself as well.  Hmmm, well the world is in fine shape then isn't it?


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

Debby said:


> So in other words you aren't interested in the moral high ground and integrity?  And you make excuses for not educating yourself as well.  Hmmm, well the world is in fine shape then isn't it?



Interesting comment.   Who's moral high ground are we seeking?   Who's integrity is being damaged by having different ideas?   And not educating my self by somehow rejecting some posts?    It depends on which part of the world being talked about.   Your opinions only?    Or maybe others ideas count too.

The report was apparently falsely put together and that pleases only part of one political party, not the nation.    The worst is still yet to come as Australia may be finding out right now with a middle east religion threatening the people.   The US is still fighting in the middle east, or should I say again; and so are some other countries.

Apparently not connection to the ways people were thinking for some time after the first attacks on the US.   And those decisions were then agreed upon by the political parties and our courts.   Now on a look back attempt to change history, that is all being tossed so more improper blame can be placed.   Not sure who is not better educated at the moment.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 15, 2014)

*Canucks punch above their weight..*

America has a proud and generous history and is the second best country in the world. Wonderful neighbor and friend. Good on yez.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

And Canada is a very nice country to visit.   I have toured the western provinces and liked them all.   Did those tours in summer and fall, never in winter.   Been in the three western units plus the island of Victori.   Been a couple time just border crossing like across the river from Detroit into Canada.   Never had a bad time.   If younger and more capable I would do other trips to Canada.   But to talk to Canadians, it is pretty easy here in southern Arizona in the winter.   They show up in the fall in their motor homes or cars, hang around till spring, then go back to Canada.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

BobF said:


> Interesting comment.   Who's moral high ground are we seeking?   Who's integrity is being damaged by having different ideas?   And not educating my self by somehow rejecting some posts?    It depends on which part of the world being talked about.   Your opinions only?    Or maybe others ideas count too.
> 
> The report was apparently falsely put together and that pleases only part of one political party, not the nation.    The worst is still yet to come as Australia may be finding out right now with a middle east religion threatening the people.   The US is still fighting in the middle east, or should I say again; and so are some other countries.
> 
> Apparently not connection to the ways people were thinking for some time after the first attacks on the US.   And those decisions were then agreed upon by the political parties and our courts.   Now on a look back attempt to change history, that is all being tossed so more improper blame can be placed.   Not sure who is not better educated at the moment.




The high moral ground that the US has espoused forever:  we are good, we are compassionate, we seek freedom, we help others to be free.....   In fact the high moral ground which all compassionate people would hope for  on behalf of those who are weak and disenfranchised everywhere.  When you use that kind of language and then your government invades, destroys, threatens and subjugates, it sort of flies in the face of your own rhetoric.  That I think would be considered a lack of integrity.

It was your own words where you stated that you wouldn't read a document (of national importance simply because it didn't meet your standards of production).  It does also call into question whether you have taken any time to read any of the multitude of documents that I've linked to.  Not that I take it personally because I didn't write any of those links, some of which actually are written by your fellow Americans.   It just does sort of support the notion that you don't care to avail yourself of an opportunity to consider all points.

Falsely put together????  Again you ignore the fact that the Repubs *refused* to participate and that it was based on a perusal of 6,000,000 pages of the CIA's own documents.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

It's good that you've had positive experiences when you've visited Canada.  My husband has been reprocessing old photos of some of our holidays in the US and they included trips to Disneyland and SF with the kids and his various bike tours across the western US with several American buddies.  We've been reliving through the pictures, many good times in our lives.

Don't get me wrong.  There are innumerable ways that America is a great country and the world has been blessed in innumerable ways by the citizens of America.    My beef is with those few guys at the top who are and have been, orchestrating terrible things in other places around the globe and then they come to all of us with lies that are meant for one thing and that is to cover it up and to deceive an otherwise good population about their agenda, goals and activities.

And what the heck, I have no idea if taking notice and talking about any of this will change anything.  But in sixty years, I don't want to be one of those people that future people talk about like they do about the Hitler-era German civilians.  Like when we say things such as 'how could they not know, how could they not say anything, how could they let it happen?'


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 15, 2014)

You're right Debby when you mentioned our invasion and destabilization of other countries over the years, usually with the underlying purpose of oil and control.  Why would anyone voluntarily want to write a report and make it public on unethical things they have done themselves?  So folks like Cheney won't be involved in the project, but from what I read, he doesn't see any problem with the actions taken, those with a war mindset will never change, regardless of what happens to American citizens and military as a result.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 15, 2014)

Canada is a beautiful country, we visited there by truck when we were young and tent camping.  We were in areas like the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, British Columbia, Alberta, etc.  The scenery and wildlife were amazing!


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 15, 2014)

Wildlife in Montreal and Toronto are better


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## oakapple (Dec 15, 2014)

Falcon said:


> Elyzabeth, Thanks for your opinion of USA. I'm proud to be a member and not afraid to say so.
> 
> I feel the same about YOUR country, having been there and hope to visit again in the near future.


 Falcon, Elyzabeth is from the US. She just happens to live in England at the moment.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

And I do agree with her post on this thread.    Sure a lot better than some of the twisted posts that a few are posting on this forum.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 15, 2014)

Torture is like Fight Club, never talk about Fight Club. That being said it torture is brutality. Throw in words like ticking clock all you want but torture is brutal. I'm with those that a reflection of the society is how they treat their prisoners. So I guess the US is an impatient the ends justify the means society.

It's not funny but I have laugh at some of the pundits who talk about the torture release as taking away one the tools they want to be used to protect their own selfish butt.

Shameful phase in US history.


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## Debby (Dec 15, 2014)

BobF said:


> And I do agree with her post on this thread.    Sure a lot better than some of the twisted posts that a few are posting on this forum.




Well considering that my oft expressed desire for the world is respect for one another, compassion, a safe life, honesty, etc., you can't possibly be talking about me eh Bob:biggrin-new:.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

Dentists must then be called torturers instead of medical practitioners.


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## BobF (Dec 15, 2014)

And yes Debby, you fit into my concerns about honesty etc.   If you give no others thoughts any credibility then you are not all the things you claim to be.

You are ignoring that the report was done with no interviews at all.   That the report was never shared with any other departments of the government for inputs or corrections.   That the entire report was not wanted to be released just now as the US has folks living and working all around this world and possible terrorist targets.   That this report is but one person or groups idea of good when most folks in the US are not involved in the decisions to devise this report or agree with the report.   Many of our other agencies are hoping for mercy from the radicas but no one can say for sure if that will be possible.   The US is already the target for some of the radicals groups that our prisoners were from.   Sure hope they do not return if we leave them to go free.   

Over the years the US has never attacked or destroyed any other governments around this world just based on our evil governments ideas.   All places where the US has gone to war have been made into free countries and the US then left.   I know of no country that the US has had war with has been kept by the US after the war.  We have gone elsewhere and entered into fights for freedoms and where we lost, Vietnam, we left after several years.   The US was actually a follow on to the French fight to stop the communist from taking over.   Today, the communist have taken over but communist types of leadership were badly failing so they have softened up to where the people dress the way they want, not into drab old look alike uniforms.  Life in that part of the world is more like Europe areas now.   They now act more like free people and we do lots of business with China, Vietnam, and other once true blue communist types of governments.   But they still do need to have freedom from their restrictive governments ways.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 15, 2014)

*Torture like art is in the eye of the beholder. "not to shout in terror suspects''*

Or otherwise put, torture is an art form.




> British soldiers have been told not to shout in terror suspects'  ears, use "insulting words", or bang their fists on tables or walls  during interrogations, according to a published report.
> Britain's Sunday Telegraph obtained court papers outlining  regulations for military intelligence officers, and current and former  commanders have warned that the guidelines are so strict as to make  interrogation pointless.
> "The effect of the ambulance-chasing lawyers and the play-it-safe  judges is that we have got to the point where we have lost our  operational capability to do tactical questioning. That in itself brings  risks to the lives of the people we deploy," Tim Collins, a retired  British Army colonel who now runs a private security company, told the  Telegraph. "These insurgents are not nice people. These are criminals.  They behead people; they keep sex slaves. They are not normal people."
> There is also concern, in the wake of this week's release of a report  by the Senate Intelligence Committee documenting alleged torture of  terror suspects by the CIA following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, that  soldiers will risk exposure to disciplinary action and legal claims.
> "While these insurgents are chopping people’s heads off and raping  women, the idea they can take us to court because somebody shouted at  them is ridiculous," Sir Alan West, former Minister for Security and  Counter-Terrorism told the paper.





*oh my god!*

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/12/14/british-soldiers-told-not-to-shout-at-insult-terror-suspects-report-claims/


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## oakapple (Dec 16, 2014)

Agree that it's ridiculous, and too far in the other direction, but actual torture does no good at all[ apart from the ethics of it.] people will say anything under torture just to make it stop for a while.They will admit something, and then later deny it over and over again, until nobody knows what is true.


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## oakapple (Dec 16, 2014)

BobF....... my dentist IS a bit of a torturer.


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## oakapple (Dec 16, 2014)

Water boarding may sound like a fun sport..... it is torture in fact, the person is made to feel they are drowning and can't breathe. Awful.


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## Fern (Dec 16, 2014)

For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about.  Goody goody, softly,softly approach when dealing with the military, what a hoot. 
Russia, North Korea, the Taleban, ISIS etc.etc. must be sniggering up their sleeves.

Debby;





> Well considering that my oft expressed desire for the world is respect for one another, compassion, a safe life, honesty, etc


Tell that to the marauders.


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## drifter (Dec 16, 2014)

Thank you Elyzabeth.


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## Debby (Dec 17, 2014)

Fern said:


> For the life of me I don't know what all the fuss is about.  Goody goody, softly,softly approach when dealing with the military, what a hoot.
> Russia, North Korea, the Taleban, ISIS etc.etc. must be sniggering up their sleeves.
> 
> Debby;
> Tell that to the marauders.




Doesn't matter what the marauders think does it?  Do you decide in your personal life that you will do 'wrong' because everyone else is doing it, or do you hold yourself to a higher standard than the bad guys?  Do you decide to do right because it's the right thing to do?

And Bob, you ignore the fact that the CIA refused to engage.  They made that choice and you're buying into their whining now.  Ooooh nobody talked to us, boo hoo.
And you are ignoring the fact that the 6,000,000 documents reviewed were written by their own hands.


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## Debby (Dec 17, 2014)

BobF said:


> And yes Debby, you fit into my concerns about honesty etc.   If you give no others thoughts any credibility then you are not all the things you claim to be.
> 
> You are ignoring that the report was done with no interviews at all.   That the report was never shared with any other departments of the government for inputs or corrections.   That the entire report was not wanted to be released just now as the US has folks living and working all around this world and possible terrorist targets.   That this report is but one person or groups idea of good when most folks in the US are not involved in the decisions to devise this report or agree with the report.   Many of our other agencies are hoping for mercy from the radicas but no one can say for sure if that will be possible.   The US is already the target for some of the radicals groups that our prisoners were from.   Sure hope they do not return if we leave them to go free.
> 
> Over the years the US has never attacked or destroyed any other governments around this world just based on our evil governments ideas.   All places where the US has gone to war have been made into free countries and the US then left.   I know of no country that the US has had war with has been kept by the US after the war.  We have gone elsewhere and entered into fights for freedoms and where we lost, Vietnam, we left after several years.   The US was actually a follow on to the French fight to stop the communist from taking over.   Today, the communist have taken over but communist types of leadership were badly failing so they have softened up to where the people dress the way they want, not into drab old look alike uniforms.  Life in that part of the world is more like Europe areas now.   They now act more like free people and we do lots of business with China, Vietnam, and other once true blue communist types of governments.   But they still do need to have freedom from their restrictive governments ways.




You have never done a study on your governments activities overseas.  Last night, I finished reading about Jean Bertrand Aristede of Haiti and from that reading it sounds like he was a really good man with a great heart for his people.  He got booted by the US as a favour to France.  In 1804 when there was a slave rebellion and France was turfed from Haiti,  they demanded 'payment' from their erstwhile slaves that in todays dollars would amount to $21 billion.  Aristede was in the processing of setting up a legal case to demand reparations from France on behalf of the people of Haiti and within that year, the US came in an yanked him out of the presidency and they occupied Haiti.  And Canada protected the airfield and the streets of Haiti so that it could be done without rioting, etc.  That's one more instance of your country invading and occupying and taking out a leader that was loved by his people, because the USA had an agenda that didn't include fairness or justice.

They then set up another puppet government who was amenable to the US's wishes.  You are so naive.


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## Elyzabeth (Dec 17, 2014)

I am an American, 

However, I also have UK citizenship, 

so, BOTH COUNTRIES ARE MY COUNRTY !


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## BobF (Dec 17, 2014)

Debby said:


> Doesn't matter what the marauders think does it?  Do you decide in your personal life that you will do 'wrong' because everyone else is doing it, or do you hold yourself to a higher standard than the bad guys?  Do you decide to do right because it's the right thing to do?
> 
> And Bob, you ignore the fact that the CIA refused to engage.  They made that choice and you're buying into their whining now.  Ooooh nobody talked to us, boo hoo.
> And you are ignoring the fact that the 6,000,000 documents reviewed were written by their own hands.



And our government had not reviewed and approved disclosure.   Obama has been busy trying to get prepared for any attacks because of this irrational and one sided release of security stuff.   Want to stay clean and out of more combat. best stop the hand wringing of your as accept honesty as it really is and not invented only to your ideas of right and wrong.   We all have the ability to judge right and wrong and just hope we are the closest to the general beliefs.  Many in the US are very unhappy with what this person so randomly, and without reviews and permissions, released to the views of several of the US enemies.   Now we just have to wait and see how all this perceived recklessness evolves.   We both think differently so in a year or two, maybe one of us will have a true answer to who is most correct.   Remember that too much goodness from England got them heavily involved in WWII.


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## BobF (Dec 17, 2014)

Debby said:


> You have never done a study on your governments activities overseas.  Last night, I finished reading about Jean Bertrand Aristede of Haiti and from that reading it sounds like he was a really good man with a great heart for his people.  He got booted by the US as a favour to France.  In 1804 when there was a slave rebellion and France was turfed from Haiti,  they demanded 'payment' from their erstwhile slaves that in todays dollars would amount to $21 billion.  Aristede was in the processing of setting up a legal case to demand reparations from France on behalf of the people of Haiti and within that year, the US came in an yanked him out of the presidency and they occupied Haiti.  And Canada protected the airfield and the streets of Haiti so that it could be done without rioting, etc.  That's one more instance of your country invading and occupying and taking out a leader that was loved by his people, because the USA had an agenda that didn't include fairness or justice.
> 
> They then set up another puppet government who was amenable to the US's wishes.  You are so naive.


......................................

Wrong again?    I found this as I don't remember the US ever just  knocking off other countries leaders without cause.   Like for Panama.   In this case they helped the deposed leader get back his job.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34400/Jean-Bertrand-Aristide

From within this article is:

Encouraged to run for president by the mass movement known as the  Lavalas (which means “flood” or “torrent” in Creole), Aristide in 1990  won Haiti’s first free democratic election  and was inaugurated on February 7, 1991. As president he initiated a  literacy program, dismantled the repressive system of rural section  chiefs, and oversaw a drastic reduction in human rights violations. His  reforms, however, angered the military and Haiti’s elite, and on  September 30, 1991, Aristide was ousted in a coup. *He lived in exile  until October 15, 1994, when the military, faced with a U.S. invasion,  agreed to let Aristide return to power.* He resumed the presidency, and,  although he remained popular with the masses, he was unable to find  effective solutions to the country’s economic problems and social  inequalities. Barred constitutionally from seeking a consecutive term,  he stepped down as president in 1996.


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## AZ Jim (Dec 17, 2014)

In some cases the Walt Kelly quote "I have seen the enemy and he is us! still applies"


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## Debby (Dec 19, 2014)

BobF said:


> ......................................
> 
> Wrong again?    I found this as I don't remember the US ever just  knocking off other countries leaders without cause.   Like for Panama.   In this case they helped the deposed leader get back his job.
> 
> ...




Until 1804, Haiti was a slave island that 'belonged' to France.  Absolutely terrible things were done to the native population under the French.  In 1804 there was a massive slave rebellion and the French were finally forced out.  You can read about how France treated their slaves and the rebellion that freed them from monsters, here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_Massacre

In 1825 France demanded 90 million gold francs from Haiti to make up for the massacre and financial losses accrued.  http://www.globalresearch.ca/haiti-...and-colonialism-and-international-aid/5334619  That 'debt' plus interest, was finally paid in total in 1947.

*****************

It should be noted that in 1994 Bill Clinton returned Aristede to office, via US troop deployment,  following a massive, peaceful public campaign to bring him back.  It should also be noted that typically, while the UN was trying to force out the guys who were in power prior to Aristedes return, by use of trade embargoes and sanctions, the US granted themselves the right to ignore that so that several corporations could get in there and make money.  Screw the UN trade embargoes eh?  Sort of like American Assistant Secretary of State to the EU, Victoria Nulands infamous 'Screw the EU' statement wouldn't you say?

And something else that's interesting and relevant to this discussion, the group that had to be forced out by Clintons troop deployment was apparently a man who was 'paid and owned' by the CIA:  A campaign of terror against Aristide supporters was started by Emmanuel Constant after Aristide was forced out. In 1993, Constant, who had been on the CIA's payroll as an informant since 1992, organized the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haïti (FRAPH), which targeted and killed Aristide supporters.[SUP][37][/SUP][SUP][38][/SUP][SUP][39]   [/SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide


Between 2001-2004, Aristede was putting together a legal claim for return of $21 Billion dollars (current value of 90 mill. gold francs) from France and in 2004:  '...Finally, on February 29, *U.S. Marines occupied the National Palace and forced Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide into exile. Canadian troops secured the airport from which he was flown out of the country.*...'   http://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-and-haiti-relief-efforts-in-the-shadow-of-past-help/17021

'...Although the French parliament had unanimously approved a law recognizing the slave trade as a crime against humanity in 2001, just two years later France responded to Haiti’s petition with fury. It angrily rejected the lawsuit and joined with Washington in brazenly fomenting a coup d’état against Aristide, who was ousted on Feb. 29, 2004.'http://www.globalresearch.ca/haiti-independence-debt-reparations-for-slavery-and-colonialism-and-international-aid/5334619

Perhaps it was the notion that *slaves* should not only be free, but that they *deserve reparation* that encouraged Washington to join France in ousting a beloved President who had a great heart for his people and who had done a multitude of good and just things for an island nation of seriously impoverished people.

Your link touches on a good deal of what I've been reading about as regards the greatness of Aristede, including the part you highlighted about a 'US invasion'.  So yes, Bob, the American administration always has a reason, but a real study of American foreign relations will show that the reason is seldom what is really going behind the public facade. We have in the past only been able to find out about the issues after the fact.  Thanks however to the internet, that ability to hide the truth is becoming more and more difficult as more people start comparing what they can see real time as compared to what the mainstream media is offering.


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## BobF (Dec 19, 2014)

Amazing, I found a time when the US tried to help Aristede to keep his elected job.   Now you show that a short time later in years, Aristede continued to do wrong so some countries, like Canada and the US, decided to take him out and allow the country to try to run itself.   More reading and you will find that this one time priest was getting richer and richer by dealing money for himself and not for better living of the people or the nation would be my guess.   I have not read further than what you have posted.   Just hope that Hatia is now free of communism and heavy handed socialism so the people can decide themselves just what they really want to see for their health and protections.


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## 911 (Dec 19, 2014)

Why love and loyalty for the U.S. is unconditional. I know we are not perfect, but then what country is? There is no other place that I would rather be or live than here in America. When I returned home from Vietnam, I never felt so relieved in my life to be back "home". 

I also want to thank Veterans everywhere for helping to keep us free and safe. Thank You!


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## Debby (Dec 19, 2014)

BobF said:


> Amazing, I found a time when the US tried to help Aristede to keep his elected job.   Now you show that a short time later in years, Aristede continued to do wrong so some countries, like Canada and the US, decided to take him out and allow the country to try to run itself.   More reading and you will find that this one time priest was getting richer and richer by dealing money for himself and not for better living of the people or the nation would be my guess.   I have not read further than what you have posted.   Just hope that Hatia is now free of communism and heavy handed socialism so the people can decide themselves just what they really want to see for their health and protections.




I have found in all of my research, that the loyalties of countries are as fluid as water.  Today they can be buddies, tomorrow, someone decides the other has to go.  

As for Aristede, I have not found that he was guilty of much of anything except trying to do good things and perhaps not getting done as much as he and others would have liked.  I also noticed that accusations against him seem to be primarily  fabricated by enemies (who went on to become the 'government' in his place)  and then adopted by a failed media to support the agenda of removing him because he was not useful or convenient.  The decision to get rid of him after he demand justifiable reparations from France is a case in point. 

Perhaps I have not seen something that you have about Aristede so would you do me a favour and give me the links that show his misdeeds?  I would like to be as accurate as possible in my understanding of that situation.


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## BobF (Dec 19, 2014)

Aristide was run off by the US.   Wrong.    Aristide was later run off by the Canadians and the US.   Appears to be true.    Somethings apparently were done wrong or Canada would not just do that, nor do I think the US would do that either.


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## Debby (Dec 19, 2014)

I could give a number of different links that suggest that Aristede did nothing 'wrong' except demand repayment of a gross wrong by France.  My guess is that considering the US's history with slavery and Canada's history with First Nations abuse, neither of our countries would like to see a precedent like repayment for that kind of abuse occurring anywhere in the world.

American historian Tom Reeves wrote the following upon his return as an observer to Haiti in 2004 (after Aristede had been kicked out): 

 '...This year, I found a U.S. occupation not unlikethat in Iraq, but one of which very few Canadians 
or Americans are aware.The U.S. dominated occupation of Haiti after a violent and U.S.-supported
rebellion by vicious thugs and right-wing former military is scheduled to
give way June 20 (three weeks late) to a United Nations peace-keeping
force, headed by Brazil. The Haitian puppet regime of Gerard Latortue has
asked the Americans to remain, but the U.S. seems eager to get most of
its troops back to Iraq.....The reason Canada went along with the U.S. so completely may have little
to do with Haiti, and everything to do with Canadian politics. Martin seeks
to demonstrate that Canada is not “anti-US” in its foreign policy, despite
Canada's independent posture on Iraq. Haiti was the easiest place for this demonstration....'
http://www2.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti-archive-new/msg22292.html

Mr. Reeves also spoke to Kenneth Cooke who was our ambassador to Haiti at the time and according to the above communication, was told that he (Mr. Cooke) didn't really know why we went along with what CARICOM (a group of African and S. American nations) are typifying as a kidnapping of Aristede.  And then as you can see from the 
excerpt above, it would appear that it was done as a part of political posturing or 'an effort to guarantee a seat at the (popular) kids table'. The link I found and present here is really interesting inasmuch as it comes from someone who is respected in his field as a historian and is not a politician nor in the military.  Reading it is a real eye opener to how things can happen in foreign affairs.  And it's not too long or too hard to read.


Another thing that I just remembered was that after the US invaded Iraq, Canada refused to go along, because our then PM, Jean Chretien said no to the request.  A short time later when Jean Chretien left office, Paul Martin took his place and that would have been the time that he and Canada's military were drafted to assist in the removal of Aristede.  And one more link that looks with a cynical eye at the excuses and failings of Canada in that whole mess:  http://www.dominionpaper.ca/features/2004/08/25/canada_in_.html

I am so disappointed in my country Bob.  I feel like I wish I could apologize to Haiti and all the people who've suffered there as a result of our involvement!


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## Debby (Dec 19, 2014)

Another interesting point was that in 2005, a woman named Michaelle Jean was appointed Canada's Governor General by PM Paul Martin.  She was born in Haiti but her parents left that country in 1968 and she held her French citizenship until about 2006.  Despite France having laws that prohibited 'their citizens' from holding political office in other countries, they pledged that they would not stand in the way of her appointment.

I cannot help but notice that she hailed from a country that was a slave colony of France, whose incredibly popular president was ousted by America and Canada as he was in the process of preparing to take France to court to regain $21 billion dollars and that when PM Paul Martin appoints her to a top Canadian diplomatic position, despite the French law that prohibits it, France than backs off and gives it their blessing.  Was this Martin's token 'woman of colour in a top position' to assuage his guilt from the debacle that was the ousting of Aristede?  Conjecture only of course.


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## AZ Jim (Dec 19, 2014)

You do come across as America hating.  Maybe you are not but you do sound a lot like it Debby.  I am proud of us and damned glad to have been born here.  As I have said elsewhere, we are not perfect but we strive to be.


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## BobF (Dec 19, 2014)

AZ Jim, you are so right.   For some one to pick such a topic and hammer it over and over is not thinking openly or clearly.   The US has shown at least two different ways of working with that situation, both for and then against the same leader for that island nation.   I don't see any reason to continue to hammer on the long gone issue.


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## Debby (Dec 21, 2014)

AZ Jim said:


> You do come across as America hating.  Maybe you are not but you do sound a lot like it Debby.  I am proud of us and damned glad to have been born here.  As I have said elsewhere, we are not perfect but we strive to be.




Well that may be the way it sounds Jim, but that's because you are looking at the words and ascribing them to me.  I didn't write any of the multitude of links that I've provided and indeed many of them are direct from the 'pens' of your fellow Americans.  I'm just looking with open eyes at the state of the world around me, our 'safety' in it and I'm providing access to you.  What you do with it is not up to me.

Certainly there are worse places to be born, but from all the reading that I do, this whole 'pat myself on the back because my country/government is so righteous' is a pile of hooey and I include my own government in that now too.  I've just spent the last couple days looking at Canada's involvement in the abuse and destruction of Haiti since 2004 and to say 'appalled' is to pick a word that doesn't even do it justice.

According to what I've read on numerous sites, the only reason we decided to conspire with America and France to take out Aristede was because the previous PM had refused to follow the US into Iraq and the subsequent PM decided we needed to 'get on board with our trading partner' on something.
"...(Canadian) Former Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham explained: “Foreign Affairs view was there is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came on side on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver.”

http://yvesengler.com/2014/02/28/why-did-canada-help-overthrow-haitis-government/

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm a 'hater' of America Jim and all you other Americans.  I don't hate any of you, but I'm dead against (yeah, I guess you could say 'hate') governments that lie to us and tell us they are compassionate, kind, concerned about your safety and others well being, when the evidence abounds that they are anything but.  And the evidence abounds that the USA has been doing all the things that I've provided links to, all around the world and it is also abundantly clear to me now, that my Canadian government has lost their backbone and lost their way in an effort to suck up to successive American administrations.

On an individual basis, most Americans, like most Canadians are great people, but 'perfection of spirit' is not what your administration is striving for.


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## Debby (Dec 21, 2014)

BobF said:


> AZ Jim, you are so right.   For some one to pick such a topic and hammer it over and over is not thinking openly or clearly.   The US has shown at least two different ways of working with that situation, both for and then against the same leader for that island nation.   I don't see any reason to continue to hammer on the long gone issue.





Do the reading Bob and I think your opinion of your country's 'working with that situation' might change drastically.  Remember, I'm not the one writing these things, other people have, and some of them are (like I've said repeatedly) your fellow Americans.  The $64 question is, 'how interested in Truth are you'.

And the reason the world needs to keep talking about this Bob, is it shows a pattern of behaviour and intention that is going on today in countries around the world.  Military and political manipulations, governments overthrown, terrorists funded.........and the safety of the world at risk.  What good ever came from sweeping bad news under the rug?


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## tnthomas (Dec 21, 2014)

911 said:


> Why love and loyalty for the U.S. is unconditional. I know we are not perfect, but then what country is? There is no other place that I would rather be or live than here in America. When I returned home from Vietnam, I never felt so relieved in my life to be back "home".
> 
> I also want to thank Veterans everywhere for helping to keep us free and safe. Thank You!



I felt the same way when I got back from Vietnam, for sure.    My thanks to all vets as well!


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## AZ Jim (Dec 21, 2014)

Debby, let me sum up my feelings on your attitude about America.  It is like shooting fish in a barrel to collect anything negative about a country and present it as the reason for your negative feelings.  Consider if someone were to do that about Canada.  Compare countries all over the world and dwell on the negative then get back to me and tell me where we are ranked.  Yes, I say you are at least for the present, a USA hater.  You have a right to your opinion but to me it's like coming into my home and spilling red wine all over the carpet on purpose.   *Whew*.....I had to get that off my chest......


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Dec 21, 2014)

My family and I are so blessed to have been born in and have lived our lives in the United States of America.  We take so much for granted, having lived in relative luxury compared to so many others on God's Green Earth.  I am proud to be an American.  I am proud to have a son servicng in the United States Army.  
I guess I'm confused, then, why we would try to hide the wrongs we have done.  How can our Country become even better, if we allow things such as described in the Congressional Committee's Torture Report be swept under the rug?  If a family member robs a bank, do we harbor them and act as if they don't exist?  Of coure not!!  We assist as justice in meted, hoping the person will learn from their mistakes.  Putting the torture report out there should see it serve as an example of what we, as Americans, will not tolerate to have replicated.

It is still unbelievable those who suggest that we who support the release of the report are "haters".  No person is without fautl. No country is without fault.  America will be made stronger recognizing, confronting, and overcoming her errors in judgement.  It is such a shame that partisan politics are so strong that they would hide our blemishes, assuming when swept under the rug the World will forget.  The World already knows what went on in Gitmo.  We will be respected by those who count, when owning up.  Owning up won't make one iota difference with the jihadists sworn to kill each and every one of us.


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## Debby (Dec 21, 2014)

AZ Jim said:


> Debby, let me sum up my feelings on your attitude about America.  It is like shooting fish in a barrel to collect anything negative about a country and present it as the reason for your negative feelings.  Consider if someone were to do that about Canada.  Compare countries all over the world and dwell on the negative then get back to me and tell me where we are ranked.  Yes, I say you are at least for the present, a USA hater.  You have a right to your opinion but to me it's like coming into my home and spilling red wine all over the carpet on purpose.   *Whew*.....I had to get that off my chest......





I guess you don't spend a lot of time on this forum or something Jim.  Because if you were, you would see that I don't hold back on the harsh criticism of my own country when it's called for.  And just as I said to QuickSilver, if you have a legitimate, *supportable* criticism to offer about my country, I won't call you hateful, or biased or a basher, but will give due consideration to your words, your message and your links.  

What I find very interesting is that when I show *evidence* for all of my opinions, I am the hater instead of being seen as someone who is showing what is might truly be going on.  That says more about the 'labellers' than it does about me or anyone else who brings evidence to light.

In 2013 a Gallup poll was taken of 66,000 people in 65 nations and the US was seen as the greatest threat to world peace.  So obviously my fears about American hegemony are not held in isolation. http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008 

But you're right, look at many other countries over the past twenty or thirty years and you'll find all sorts of atrocities.  The difference is that most of them aren't touting their own human rights record and going around the world and telling everyone else how to improve.  If you or Canada are going to engage in that kind of talk, then it behooves us to hold ourselves to the most rigid standards.  Anything less makes us hypocrites wouldn't you say?  

As I've said before, many Americans have written on the issues I've talked about.  One of these is Dr. Paul C. Roberts who was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy under Ronald Reagan, as well as an Associate editor of the Wall Street Journal and numerous university appointments.  Take a look at his website:  http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/category/articles/     You will see that one more time, I am not alone in any of the opinions that I've stated.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 21, 2014)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> My family and I are so blessed to have been born in and have lived our lives in the United States of America.  We take so much for granted, having lived in relative luxury compared to so many others on God's Green Earth.  I am proud to be an American.  I am proud to have a son servicng in the United States Army.
> I guess I'm confused, then, why we would try to hide the wrongs we have done.  How can our Country become even better, if we allow things such as described in the Congressional Committee's Torture Report be swept under the rug?  If a family member robs a bank, do we harbor them and act as if they don't exist?  Of coure not!!  We assist as justice in meted, hoping the person will learn from their mistakes.  Putting the torture report out there should see it serve as an example of what we, as Americans, will not tolerate to have replicated.
> 
> It is still unbelievable those who suggest that we who support the release of the report are "haters".  No person is without fautl. No country is without fault.  America will be made stronger recognizing, confronting, and overcoming her errors in judgement.  It is such a shame that partisan politics are so strong that they would hide our blemishes, assuming when swept under the rug the World will forget.  The World already knows what went on in Gitmo.  We will be respected by those who count, when owning up.  Owning up won't make one iota difference with the jihadists sworn to kill each and every one of us.



Well said Grumpy Ol' Man!


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## BobF (Dec 21, 2014)

To the one that maximizes on hate and distrust about anything including her own country.    Something I feel is unwanted to be known by most and also considered to be a hateful way of looking at life in general.

A couple links that I feel need to be known about as they show the ways so many countries try to help each other and how many also receive this help from others.   These to me are much more positive to see and applaud than the hateful, doing it wrong or not doing enough list, being dug up and posted.   That is all a lot of negative information and not one bit useful for anyone.   No sense in trying to show just how bad some country was many years back, times and actions change all the time.   I will post these several links and charts about who is helping and how they help and who is needing the help being provided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign_aid_received

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_governments_by_development_aid

Lists are way too long so it will require linking to see what they consist of.


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