# Elder people face eviction and homelessness



## Vida May (Apr 19, 2022)

I have been helping friends who would be evicted if their property managers saw inside their apartments.  These people were not always like this but in their later years, something has gone very wrong.  They seriously need help and they are not getting it.   I am writing to ask for your help in understanding the problem and solutions as I prepare to testify in front of the state legislature for better protection of the elderly.

Let me explain, I am a college-educated gerontologist and I know not even educated people understand the problem.  We have words to explain the problems but those words mean nothing until we are personally touched by the reality.  I did not get the reality the first time a cleaned the filth left behind when a man moved out.  I was alarmed when a very nice woman was evicted because of her growing behavior problem.   I did not get the reality as I struggled to help another man with his organization and cleaning problem.  Not until I dealt with the filth in a female friend's kitchen did I get the horror that something can go terribly wrong with a person's ability to function and when this happens they can be evicted and become homeless.  That is when I started searching for information and my worst fears were confirmed.  Yes, not only are their daily lives filled with emotional and physical pain, but this can lead to homeless.  



> Elderly individuals who live in apartment buildings strive to maintain the same level of autonomy as homeowners. Unfortunately, unlike homeowners, their decline in independence may affect other residents. Problems associated with Alzheimer's disease, dementia, diabetes, arthritis and depression, for example, can result in behavior that disturbs neighbors.
> 
> Should a senior who knocks on her neighbor's door in the middle of the night because she is afraid or disoriented be evicted? Should the elderly man who yells at the security guard who will not let him in because he forgot his keys also lose his home? Should the disabled tenant who requires 24-hour personal care attendants be prevented from renewing his lease because the landlord doesn't like so many nonresidents coming in and out of the building?
> 
> Where is the line between tolerance and breaching a lease?  https://attorney.elderlawanswers.com/elderly-renters-are-facing-an-epidemic-of-evictions-3197


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## Myquest55 (Apr 19, 2022)

There have been several discussions on Senior Homelessness.  The system is sadly VERY broken.   I hope someone out there will take the helm and fix this.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 19, 2022)

I agree with the idea that individuals of all ages who face eviction due to their health, behavior, or lifestyle should receive some sort of evaluation to determine if they would benefit from professional help.

What about the rights, safety, and quality of life of the other residents in these situations?


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## Knight (Apr 19, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I have been helping friends who would be evicted if their property managers saw inside their apartments.  These people were not always like this but in their later years, something has gone very wrong.  They seriously need help and they are not getting it.   I am writing to ask for your help in understanding the problem and solutions as I prepare to testify in front of the state legislature for better protection of the elderly.
> 
> Let me explain, I am a college-educated gerontologist and I know not even educated people understand the problem.  We have words to explain the problems but those words mean nothing until we are personally touched by the reality.  I did not get the reality the first time a cleaned the filth left behind when a man moved out.  I was alarmed when a very nice woman was evicted because of her growing behavior problem.   I did not get the reality as I struggled to help another man with his organization and cleaning problem.  Not until I dealt with the filth in a female friend's kitchen did I get the horror that something can go terribly wrong with a person's ability to function and when this happens they can be evicted and become homeless.  That is when I started searching for information and my worst fears were confirmed.  Yes, not only are their daily lives filled with emotional and physical pain, but this can lead to homeless.



Society or rather the population being fluid has changed much of what used to be (knowing ones neighbor]  back in the 1940's thru  the mid 1960's.  Social help programs are in place but I don't think it's a surprise to anyone,  the increase in population & the ever changing/increasing demand on social services the problem will continue to grow. 

Considering the impact that technology & world events like the pandemic, illegal immigration, the pledge to absorb 100,000 Ukrainians  has & will impact more on the economy. I doubt politicians will considered legislation to improve the lives of all the unfortunate.


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## helenbacque (Apr 19, 2022)

Someone living in an apartment whose quarters presents a fire hazard is not only a danger to themselves but to others in the same building.  Anyone who is aware of the situation and does nothing to correct it is equally guilty


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## Vida May (Apr 20, 2022)

Knight said:


> Society or rather the population being fluid has changed much of what used to be (knowing ones neighbor]  back in the 1940's thru  the mid 1960's.  Social help programs are in place but I don't think it's a surprise to anyone,  the increase in population & the ever changing/increasing demand on social services the problem will continue to grow.
> 
> Considering the impact that technology & world events like the pandemic, illegal immigration, the pledge to absorb 100,000 Ukrainians  has & will impact more on the economy. I doubt politicians will considered legislation to improve the lives of all the unfortunate.



Thank you very much for your comment.  You triggered my memory of the 1940 Oregon Family Law book that I have and that information became the first note for my talking points when I testify.   Wow, you stimulated me to think of several talking points. 

In the past, by law, family had to care for family, and people were fined if they did not.  Real estate was geared for family with lots large enough to have a garden and houses were large enough to have a dining area, a  bedroom for the parents, a bedroom for boys, and a bedroom for girls.  They were large enough to accommodate wheelchairs.

We are creating a problem China has.  Apartments too small to fulfill the family duty of caring for aging parents.   Parents have apartments too small to care for adult children who need help, and at this time federal law means evicting not only people who do illegal drugs but also their aging mothers who try to help them.   Property managers must evict people who bring in someone who is not on the lease.  Legally our laws are about protecting the "landlord's" interest and a middle-class standard that is opposed to family helping family.

However, Oregon has made it law that homeless people can not be punished for sleeping on the streets if the city does not have a legal place for these people to sleep. 



> The Oregon Senate on Wednesday passed a bill that would allow tents to be pitched on public land without the threat of being criminally punished. It awaits Gov. Kate Brown’s signature.
> 
> Sponsored by House Speaker Tina Kotek, House Bill 3115 mandates that cities codify ordinances that protect people from fines and fees for camping on public lands if the local government isn’t providing any other viable alternatives.


 That law may be pressure to change other laws and policies.  
https://www.wweek.com/news/city/202...ers-may-not-change-portland-policy-on-sweeps/


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## Vida May (Apr 20, 2022)

Myquest55 said:


> There have been several discussions on Senior Homelessness.  The system is sadly VERY broken.   I hope someone out there will take the helm and fix this.


 Thank you.  I should have searched for what has been said before creating a new thread.  I will read those other threads.


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## Jeni (Apr 20, 2022)

That is what comes with a lease .... yes............. there are worries if a person is not able to care for themselves like they used to... 
that used to be a family issue.  Many simply do not have anyone to help care for them..... of family does not want to....

Sadly said the situations spoken of Often are not found Until something goes wrong .... fire hazards.... bug infestations .... mold issues all a problem for the whole building not just one tenant ........  By that point there is no proactive measures........ the person needs to go....

I look back to some threads from the winter ... remember many apartment fires with the apartment grossly over crowded ..... but no one checks or acts on occupancy rules or laws  before the tragedy......

I think outside of the issues think things like annual or semi- annual  inspections etc are what finds this ....... depending on location / state etc some places do not even bother with that....
single family rentals seldom have landlord checking other then outside in a drive by .... some people get along for years without someone noticing or more important Acting on what they see.


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## officerripley (Apr 20, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Legally our laws are about protecting the "landlord's" interest and a middle-class standard that is opposed to family helping family.


This! So true!


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## Vida May (Apr 21, 2022)

Jeni said:


> That is what comes with a lease .... yes............. there are worries if a person is not able to care for themselves like they used to...
> that used to be a family issue.  Many simply do not have anyone to help care for them..... of family does not want to....
> 
> Sadly said the situations spoken of Often are not found Until something goes wrong .... fire hazards.... bug infestations .... mold issues all a problem for the whole building not just one tenant ........  By that point there is no proactive measures........ the person needs to go....
> ...



I remember wanting neighbors to be moved out because they had become a burden on others and could not take care of themselves. One woman I was sent to check on, was suffering hyperthermia because she did not remember how to turn on her heat and didn't call for help.  Her life was actually on the line.  Another was repeatedly wandering around outside.   She was having mini-strokes and sometimes she was lucid and other times she was not.   Let me clarify.  

Everyone knew I cared for others so a lot of the problems fell on me. We had a wonderful community of caring for each other and this was destroyed when the building was sold and rents went up forcing many people out of the apartment.   We need to protect affordable housing that has the gathering rooms that apartments had, where people naturally formed a caring community.  

Thankfully most of my neighbors had family who stepped in and got their mothers into appropriate care facilities.  But what I am realizing now is not everyone has a family to help and they do not have the money for housing with the help they need.   Only recently did I realize these people are among the homeless.   I thought surely the government provided appropriate housing.  It does not.  

As every day I live with pain and struggle to get things done, the thought of being homeless too, is unacceptable!  A rich, civilized society must do better for our young and our elderly.


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## Vida May (Apr 22, 2022)

helenbacque said:


> Someone living in an apartment whose quarters presents a fire hazard is not only a danger to themselves but to others in the same building.  Anyone who is aware of the situation and does nothing to correct it is equally guilty



What do you think needs to be done?   As I said I wanted some neighbors to be moved out but I would never want them to be homeless.   Personally, I consider suicide because there is no good alternative if I can not maintain my independence, and I would rather be dead than homeless.


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## JonSR77 (Apr 22, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I have been helping friends who would be evicted if their property managers saw inside their apartments.  These people were not always like this but in their later years, something has gone very wrong.  They seriously need help and they are not getting it.   I am writing to ask for your help in understanding the problem and solutions as I prepare to testify in front of the state legislature for better protection of the elderly.
> 
> Let me explain, I am a college-educated gerontologist and I know not even educated people understand the problem.  We have words to explain the problems but those words mean nothing until we are personally touched by the reality.  I did not get the reality the first time a cleaned the filth left behind when a man moved out.  I was alarmed when a very nice woman was evicted because of her growing behavior problem.   I did not get the reality as I struggled to help another man with his organization and cleaning problem.  Not until I dealt with the filth in a female friend's kitchen did I get the horror that something can go terribly wrong with a person's ability to function and when this happens they can be evicted and become homeless.  That is when I started searching for information and my worst fears were confirmed.  Yes, not only are their daily lives filled with emotional and physical pain, but this can lead to homeless.



best of luck to you in this very very important work.


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## Vida May (Apr 22, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> best of luck to you in this very very important work.


I was shocked to learn the ability to remain independent can be written into a lease and an older person can be evicted simply because of needing a caregiver.   Federal law protects people with disabilities from being discriminated against, but few elderly people are aware of that so they do not turn to legal help when told they must move.   

There is reason to be concerned about discrimination simply because of being old and the property manager wanting to avoid the problems that can come with older people.  Not even housing for older people is managed by people with training in gerontology and this can be a problem when decisions are made by young property managers who have no understanding of living in an older body with an older brain.      

A good safety feature would be stoves that automatically turn off.   Some of us rely on instant pots, steamers, and microwaves that do automatically turn off.  One friend even went so far as to unplug her stove.


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## Jeni (Apr 22, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Not even housing for older people is managed by people with training in gerontology and this can be a problem when decisions are made by young property managers who have no understanding of living in an older body with an older brain.


what you are describing to me sounds more specialized housing ....cannot imagine an ad for apartment staff asking for training in all the various items they May encounter...... perhaps they need at least 5-10 languages under their belt as well ...
the price would be through the roof to pay for specialty staff and features


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## JonSR77 (Apr 22, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I was shocked to learn the ability to remain independent can be written into a lease and an older person can be evicted simply because of needing a caregiver.   Federal law protects people with disabilities from being discriminated against, but few elderly people are aware of that so they do not turn to legal help when told they must move.
> 
> There is reason to be concerned about discrimination simply because of being old and the property manager wanting to avoid the problems that can come with older people.  Not even housing for older people is managed by people with training in gerontology and this can be a problem when decisions are made by young property managers who have no understanding of living in an older body with an older brain.
> 
> A good safety feature would be stoves that automatically turn off.   Some of us rely on instant pots, steamers, and microwaves that do automatically turn off.  One friend even went so far as to unplug her stove.



generally, the government backs business and businessmen, not the public. I have had horrible, horrible landlords. Most of them belonged in jail for the kind of behavior they exhibited. And the towns always seem to take their side. It's disgusting. And, you know, I don't think it is some emotional bias...I think it is directly some bribe money being spread around by businessmen to get their way.


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## Vida May (Apr 23, 2022)

Jeni said:


> what you are describing to me sounds more specialized housing ....cannot imagine an ad for apartment staff asking for training in all the various items they May encounter...... perhaps they need at least 5-10 languages under their belt as well ...
> the price would be through the roof to pay for specialty staff and features



Well yes, if the housing is for people over 62, I do believe the property manager should have an understanding of being elderly.  Age discrimination in hiring should be in favor of the older person.  And when operating a child care center, shouldn't someone with knowledge of child development be in charge?

And if the housing is in an area where a large number of people speak a different language, management is preferably bi-lingual.


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## Vida May (Apr 23, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> generally, the government backs business and businessmen, not the public. I have had horrible, horrible landlords. Most of them belonged in jail for the kind of behavior they exhibited. And the towns always seem to take their side. It's disgusting. And, you know, I don't think it is some emotional bias...I think it is directly some bribe money being spread around by businessmen to get their way.


 Property owners will say the laws favor the renters.  Jeni seems to be opposed to recognizing special needs and we do have many different special needs populations.   Where I live there is special housing for different groups, physically disabled, mentally disabled, elderly, and we finally are getting it together for dealing with the chronic homeless population.   

We are humans and we have different problems and different needs.  I am not Christian and I do not believe there is a God who takes care of people.  If we are to have a civilization it is up to humans to take care of each other.  The US is lagging behind other nations when it comes to social concerns.  

However, in the 1960's when John Kennedy was in office we passed the Older Americans Act that did recognize the needs of older people and did declare older people are entitled to basic things.  This is not a one way, give services to the elderly.  It is also very much about keeping the elderly involved and actively engaged in society and giving them the opportunity to contribute to society.  

We are entitled to housing, food, education, and transportation.


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## Jeni (Apr 23, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Well yes, if the housing is for people over 62, I do believe the property manager should have an understanding of being elderly.  Age discrimination in hiring should be in favor of the older person.  And when operating a child care center, shouldn't someone with knowledge of child development be in charge?
> 
> And if the housing is in an area where a large number of people speak a different language, management is preferably bi-lingual.


Maybe i missed your point ......as you referred in another post ... about  *affordable*   housing ... as you specialize .....the price goes up not down.   That was my point not that i disagreed with specializing...

A manager with training would  mean little in this area since it is most often the assistant staff 
 that does the work or deals with tenants NOT the person in charge....
IMO  just makes a long bureaucracy that in the end would be more frustrating  to deal with.  

 Property laws differ greatly,,,,,,,, by many states/ locations....
 in my area there is plenty of recourse for tenants............ but i have found / see many  do not want to *use* them .....as it often results in a conflict. 
We had a manager that was very abusive to many older residents left us alone .......when she thought she would try something on us ......... We just went over her head and she was put in her place as I quoted the law she broke ....... to her boss......  she is NOT allowed to talk to us anymore at ALL by the property owners wish.... do not know why they did not fire her...

Now many other tenants ..  when they have a problem........they  want me or H to take up their cause ........
we will direct them to where they can look up law or an attorneys name but we are not fighting everyone's  battle.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2022)

Uncle Charlie may be a nice old man. But if his apartment is a rat infested, fly and roach ridden, garbage strewn dump, maybe Uncle Charlie needs to move to a healthier structured environment. I have to side with the property managers on this. The apartment's condition is window into Uncle Charlie's deterritorialization. You have two options either clean his place, for him, or place Charlie in a home.


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## Vida May (Apr 23, 2022)

Jeni said:


> Maybe i missed your point ......as you referred in another post ... about  *affordable*   housing ... as you specialize .....the price goes up not down.   That was my point not that i disagreed with specializing...
> 
> A manager with training would  mean little in this area since it is most often the assistant staff
> that does the work or deals with tenants NOT the person in charge....
> ...



Good for you.  From your point of view, are you okay with putting people on the streets because they can no longer think clearer, they are in constant pain, and given those two problems they can no longer live independently because they are problems to others and a possible threat?

If you are not okay with that, what might be done?


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## Vida May (Apr 23, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Uncle Charlie may be a nice old man. But if his apartment is a rat infested, fly and roach ridden, garbage strewn dump, maybe Uncle Charlie needs to move to a healthier structured environment. I have to side with the property managers on this. The apartment's condition is window into Uncle Charlie's deterritorialization. You have two options either clean his place, for him, or place Charlie in a home.



I agree with you but can he afford a home?  Is there space available for Charlie? 

We have in-home services that have a sliding scale but qualifying for the services can be tricky, and often people like Charlie know nothing about the services.  And I am noticing the people who need help the most are not thinking clearly and have some pretty serious functioning problems.  And even nice people can have their bad moments.  The OP mentions some of those bad moments and questions if eviction should be the way to handle the problem.


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## Vida May (Apr 23, 2022)

Some older people are evicted for hoarding and this should not happen because these people have a problem and need help.   



> Doctors and psychologists think that hoarding *could be a sign that someone has dementia, other cognitive disorders, or a mental illness like OCD, depression, or anxiety*. Other triggers include living alone for long periods of time without social interaction, lack of cognitive stimulation, or a traumatic event.
> 
> How to Help Seniors Who Are Hoarders - DailyCaring​


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 23, 2022)

I believe the problem is "Uncle Charlie's" ability to keep his apartment livable. If he can't, it's not really the property manager's burden to clean Chalie's place.  There's only two choices- get someone to clean the place or put Chalie in a home.  If he can't do either, he's out on the street. That's the economic reality of the situation.
I was in a nursing home> I'm  back in my own home now, but I don't know what to do if my savings ran out while i was in the nursing home.


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## Jeni (Apr 23, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Some older people are evicted for hoarding and this should not happen because these people have a problem and need help.


the headline says clearly.... COULD be ... that is NOT solid  diagnosis......
No one wants to see someone on the street or displaced.... the issues at hand is being Proactive not reactive..... Many refuse to take help early on ... do not think they have a problem ..... only when in crisis then it must be dealt with..
The decisions made with a looming time limit or last minute are Often not the best ones possible..... getting services sometimes takes a month or two etc  



Vida May said:


> We have in-home services that have a sliding scale but qualifying for the services can be tricky, and often people like Charlie know nothing about the services. And I am noticing the people who need help the most are not thinking clearly and have some pretty serious functioning problems. And even nice people can have their bad moments.


looking for or evaluating services and options should be done with a clear head instead of after a warning or worse yet an eviction notice....

If people want to help way before needed a back up plan should be explored .... is there family ?   is there people who can pair up?   what options are out there for x amount of money? 

 I have said to a few people "oh i heard Jane has had this issue ...have you thought about what you would do in her shoes?"    A few then really examined what ifs   .... 
 BUT far too many still stubborn think too bad that will never happen to me because they do not recognize themselves in the picture ....


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## Tish (Apr 23, 2022)

@Vida May I have to ask, are there no religious or mental health workers that go in once a week to clean and help them?
Over here we have Baptist and Anglican care as well as Homecare nurses that will visit once or twice a week.
I used to do home care nursing, which consisted of helping them bathe and checking on medications as well as treating wounds and basic medicals.


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## Buckeye (Apr 23, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Property owners will say the laws favor the renters.  Jeni seems to be opposed to recognizing special needs and we do have many different special needs populations.   Where I live there is special housing for different groups, physically disabled, mentally disabled, elderly, and we finally are getting it together for dealing with the chronic homeless population.
> 
> We are humans and we have different problems and different needs.  I am not Christian and I do not believe there is a God who takes care of people.  If we are to have a civilization it is up to humans to take care of each other.  The US is lagging behind other nations when it comes to social concerns.
> 
> ...


Gee, I am only entitled to what I can afford to pay for.  And this seems to be true for most folks.  Severely disabled excepted..


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## Vida May (Apr 24, 2022)

Buckeye said:


> Gee, I am only entitled to what I can afford to pay for.  And this seems to be true for most folks.  Severely disabled excepted..





> The Administration on Aging​The Older Americans Act created the Administration on Aging, the main federal agency tasked with carrying out the objectives of the Act. The Administration on Aging provides services and programs designed to help aging individuals live independent lives in their homes and communities. Perhaps the most well-known of these programs is the communal and home delivered meals program, sometimes referred to as "Meals on Wheels." In addition to meals, this program focuses on health and nutrition education.
> 
> The Administration's Office of Elder Rights Protection focuses on protecting older individuals from elder abuse, neglect, and exploitation through strategic planning and research. The Long-Term Care Ombudsman Program provides full-time ombudsmen, or public advocates, to help represent the interests of people in long-term care environments, such as assisted living facilities. Finally, the OAA funds employment and training programs for low-income, unemployed people 55 years old and above, which has helped more than 1 million participants enter or re-enter the workforce.
> 
> https://www.findlaw.com/elder/what-is-elder-law/what-is-the-older-americans-act.html


This act led to senior centers and low-income housing for people over 55 or in some places 62.   We can audit college classes for free if there is room in the class.  We can ride the bus for free.  I am a senior companion and get a stipend of $3.00 an hour to visit with seniors and, take them places.  For a year I was a foster grandparent and that is a school volunteer program.  The Senior Companion Program and Foster Grandparent Program are for both the people served and the low-income seniors who get a stipend.  One of the most popular programs is seniors mentoring people who are starting a business.


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## Vida May (Apr 24, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I believe the problem is "Uncle Charlie's" ability to keep his apartment livable. If he can't, it's not really the property manager's burden to clean Chalie's place.  There's only two choices- get someone to clean the place or put Chalie in a home.  If he can't do either, he's out on the street. That's the economic reality of the situation.
> I was in a nursing home> I'm  back in my own home now, but I don't know what to do if my savings ran out while i was in the nursing home.


What if you were uncle Charley?  I am very worried about my 94-year-old friend who is in an independent living community, that provides meals and some cleaning because her funds could run out, and the idea of her being on the streets is totally unacceptable to me!

At 11 I will help a friend who is in her 80 and showing signs of dementia.  Her kitchen absolutely has to be cleaned!  I hope to get glass bottles out of her apartment and put them in recycling today!  That kind of hoarding is a sign of dementia.  I pray once her kitchen is under control she will get the rest of her apartment done.

The gentleman I have been helping has made great strides forward.  He started throwing away stuff that seriously needed to be thrown away.  Sometimes when people are overwhelmed, a little bit of help can get them back on track.

For one friend, all I had to do for her was sit in her living room for an hour while she organized a paper mess.  I think I need to find another hour for her.  I suspect her problem is more one of loneliness and depression.   That seems to be something all the 70-year-olds I help are dealing with as well as signs of dementia.

One of my dear friends was very refined and at one time taught a college class, and I think she died in her car because I lost contact with her.  She made the mistake of living with a man without marriage, and when he died she lost everything!  She was trying to live on $400 a month which meant being homeless when she could not find work and at her age, there were not many jobs and when covid hit, there were no jobs for her.   I would have taken her into my home if I could have, but I rent and would have been evicted.


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## Vida May (Apr 24, 2022)

Jeni said:


> the headline says clearly.... COULD be ... that is NOT solid  diagnosis......
> No one wants to see someone on the street or displaced.... the issues at hand is being Proactive not reactive..... Many refuse to take help early on ... do not think they have a problem ..... only when in crisis then it must be dealt with..
> The decisions made with a looming time limit or last minute are Often not the best ones possible..... getting services sometimes takes a month or two etc
> 
> ...


Thank you and that is why I have said, property managers of complexes for the elderly should have some training in gerontology, so* they would have the information needed to help the renters and a perspective that is helpful, not judgmenta*l.  The need for help should be expected and the management should know what to do when that is needed.  

My 94-year-old friend is paying 3 times the rent she was paying and will be thrown out if her savings is gone before she is.  The only thing she is getting that she was not getting before is 3 meals in a dining room.  *The big difference is the expectations*.  Where she was, she had to keep up with younger people or be evicted.  Where she is now, she is expected to need help and if she does need extra help, such as someone managing her medication for her, she will have to pay for it.  And she is in one of the most affordable places. 

I would love to be in a place where meals are serviced and someone cleans my room once a week but I can not afford it and never will be able to afford it.  I think the depression that is causing many people to horde and to give up, and then live in filth, is the reality of no one caring.  When we pay a few thousand dollars a month, we are paying people to care.   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?


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## Paco Dennis (Apr 24, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Thank you and that is why I have said, property managers of complexes for the elderly should have some training in gerontology, so* they would have the information needed to help the renters and a perspective that is helpful, not judgmenta*l.  The need for help should be expected and the management should know what to do when that is needed.
> 
> My 94-year-old friend is paying 3 times the rent she was paying and will be thrown out if her savings is gone before she is.  The only thing she is getting that she was not getting before is 3 meals in a dining room.  *The big difference is the expectations*.  Where she was, she had to keep up with younger people or be evicted.  Where she is now, she is expected to need help and if she does need extra help, such as someone managing her medication for her, she will have to pay for it.  And she is in one of the most affordable places.
> 
> I would love to be in a place where meals are serviced and someone cleans my room once a week but I can not afford it and never will be able to afford it.  I think the depression that is causing many people to horde and to give up, and then live in filth, is the reality of no one caring.  When we pay a few thousand dollars a month, we are paying people to care*.   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?*


*   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?

 *


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## Buckeye (Apr 24, 2022)

Vida May said:


> This act led to senior centers and low-income housing for people over 55 or in some places 62.   We can audit college classes for free if there is room in the class.  We can ride the bus for free.  I am a senior companion and get a stipend of $3.00 an hour to visit with seniors and, take them places.  For a year I was a foster grandparent and that is a school volunteer program.  The Senior Companion Program and Foster Grandparent Program are for both the people served and the low-income seniors who get a stipend.  One of the most popular programs is seniors mentoring people who are starting a business.


So which is it?  If we have these senior centers and low income housing, etc, why would "elder people face eviction and homelessness"? 

And "riding the bus for free" is not much of an entitlement for free transportation.  I would have to drive my car about 6 miles to take a free bus ride.

I have no sense of being "entitled" to anything at someone else's expense.


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## Buckeye (Apr 24, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> *   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?
> 
> *


Great - let's just send all of our homeless elderly to the Netherlands and let them, God Bless their Hearts, take care of them.

I'll pitch in on the cost of the plane ticket!


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## officerripley (Apr 24, 2022)

Dang, it's getting cold (-hearted) in here; brrrrrr.


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## Buckeye (Apr 24, 2022)

officerripley said:


> Dang, it's getting cold (-hearted) in here; brrrrrr.


lol - let's face it - comparing the Netherlands to the US is meaningless.


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## Pepper (Apr 24, 2022)

Buckeye said:


> I have no sense of being "entitled" to anything at someone else's expense.


Bully for you!  Yay you!


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## JimBob1952 (Apr 24, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Some older people are evicted for hoarding and this should not happen because these people have a problem and need help.




Sorry, if I own a house and the tenant turns out to be a hoarder, that tenant is going out on the street post-haste.  My responsibility is to provide housing within code specifications at the agreed price, not to be a mental health counselor.


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## JimBob1952 (Apr 24, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> *   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?
> 
> *





Buckeye said:


> lol - let's face it - comparing the Netherlands to the US is meaningless.



Let's cut our defense spending to Dutch levels (about 1.4 percent of GDP instead of 3.5 percent).  That way, when the Russians invade Ukraine and the Ukrainians ask for arms, we can send them...what?  Wheels of Gouda cheese?


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## OneEyedDiva (Apr 24, 2022)

These situations are so sad. I know of some elderly who couldn't or didn't take care of their apartments. They were not evicted but boy what messes were left for their loved ones to take care of after they passed.


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## officerripley (Apr 24, 2022)

OneEyedDiva said:


> These situations are so sad. I know of some elderly who couldn't or didn't take care of their apartments. They were not evicted but boy what messes were left for their loved ones to take care of after they passed.


It is indeed sad. So sad that too many people here on earth only look at the elderly who need help as sources of income or as being worthless. And the elderly aren't the only ones who are looked at that way either.


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## mellowyellow (Apr 24, 2022)

Old age with no family to care about you is the saddest thing, especially in nursing homes.  Those of us who have family who care are the luckiest people.


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## Don M. (Apr 24, 2022)

One of the biggest reasons for why housing...especially rentals...is becoming so pricey is due to corporations and wealthy people buying up properties as an "investment" and making a bunch of money as prices continue to rise.  They have been able to get away with this Scam because new housing construction is lagging far behind demand.  

Eventually, construction will pick up a bit, and there will be another "housing bubble", and these greedy types will see their investments plummet.


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## dseag2 (Apr 24, 2022)

I saw a news story today about how rents are up well over 30% in Miami and over 20% in Dallas.  The news anchor interviewed a young guy in Miami whose rent had increased from over $3,000 to over $6,000 a month.  He was interviewed while sitting in a huge apartment overlooking the ocean.  I thought "poor baby".  He could certainly find something further inland for what he was previously paying.  

Why weren't they interviewing people who were living month-to-month, paying $800 per month and whose rent had increased to $1,500 per month?  These are the people who are losing housing completely.  BTW, rhetorical question.


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## Knight (Apr 24, 2022)

Buckeye said:


> Great - let's just send all of our homeless elderly to the Netherlands and let them, God Bless their Hearts, take care of them.
> 
> I'll pitch in on the cost of the plane ticket!


I think hiring several cruise ships with a few round trips would be needed.


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## dseag2 (Apr 24, 2022)

Don M. said:


> One of the biggest reasons for why housing...especially rentals...is becoming so pricey is due to corporations and wealthy people buying up properties as an "investment" and making a bunch of money as prices continue to rise.  They have been able to get away with this Scam because new housing construction is lagging far behind demand.
> 
> Eventually, construction will pick up a bit, and there will be another "housing bubble", and these greedy types will see their investments plummet.


This is also the reason young people can't buy their first homes.  These corporations are buying up entire developments and are not allowing people to buy but only rent during a housing shortage.


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## Autumn72 (Apr 24, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Thank you and that is why I have said, property managers of complexes for the elderly should have some training in gerontology, so* they would have the information needed to help the renters and a perspective that is helpful, not judgmenta*l.  The need for help should be expected and the management should know what to do when that is needed.
> 
> My 94-year-old friend is paying 3 times the rent she was paying and will be thrown out if her savings is gone before she is.  The only thing she is getting that she was not getting before is 3 meals in a dining room.  *The big difference is the expectations*.  Where she was, she had to keep up with younger people or be evicted.  Where she is now, she is expected to need help and if she does need extra help, such as someone managing her medication for her, she will have to pay for it.  And she is in one of the most affordable places.
> 
> I would love to be in a place where meals are serviced and someone cleans my room once a week but I can not afford it and never will be able to afford it.  I think the depression that is causing many people to horde and to give up, and then live in filth, is the reality of no one caring.  When we pay a few thousand dollars a month, we are paying people to care.   But what if like in the Netherlands, society really did care?   What if society thought older people should have the help they need and they should get it simply because that is how a civilized country should be?


I am in total agreement with all you have said.
Renting from Property management places is unfair treatment for sure as I see it.
I found the issues are this way is partly by government systems to it seems to make a gain of jobs for younger people without the Respect for the elderly.
I remember long ago thinking if I married I would have a family to care for and on return as I earned it means I would be respected by my needs being taken care of by my own family that now is estranged to me. 
And why. Because of interfering government jobs listing to keep the children away from their parents meaning social services.
I feel these bad forms of jobs are keeping parents stuck away in high Risers meant for children who grew up to not include their parents. 
Less family seems has been striped of this keeping parents on their own places blinding those to not want to care as on visiting and small helpful needed household duties. They are busy paying taxes so the government can takeover without the parents permission to become a useless thought in the systems idea of controlling as in divide and conquer.


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## Michael Z (Apr 25, 2022)

It seems like hoarding becomes more and more an issue as one ages for some. Or, on the other hand, some will start discarding more and more as they age as their interests and hobbies become less. I get rid of more and more while my wife accumulates, although I would not classify my wife as a hoarder. It was kind of the same with my mom and dad.


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## Vida May (Apr 26, 2022)

Buckeye said:


> So which is it?  If we have these senior centers and low income housing, etc, why would "elder people face eviction and homelessness"?
> 
> And "riding the bus for free" is not much of an entitlement for free transportation.  I would have to drive my car about 6 miles to take a free bus ride.
> 
> I have no sense of being "entitled" to anything at someone else's expense.



Good question.    Why are there homeless elderly people?

There are several reasons for that, personal, educational, cultural, political, economic, and public administration policy.

I helped seniors as a volunteer and never thought of the government being responsible for senior services until I studied gerontology at the University of Oregon.

US culture is backward when it comes to social services in part because we were pioneers just a couple of generations ago.   I have known people who grew up on homesteads.  Europe preferred villages but with the exception of a few large cities, we preferred to live isolated from each other and developed an attitude about being independent that is not civilized.  Civil means living in cities.  To this day we are focused on maintaining independence.  

Never in the history of humanity have there been so many long-lived people and our consciousness has not caught up with the reality of long-lived people.  You scoffed at the notion of being entitled to transportation.  What will happen when you lose the ability to drive?  If you live long enough, you will lose the ability to drive.  Aging is about mental and physical deterioration.  I want to be careful with that statement because I believe for a while our thinking is greatly improved and we can be a huge benefit to society, but we are all losing our ability to function and if we live long enough, we will need help maintaining our independence.


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## Vida May (Apr 26, 2022)

Buckeye said:


> lol - let's face it - comparing the Netherlands to the US is meaningless.


 Why is it meaningless?  How large is a state?  The Netherlands can do better than a state, why?


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## Vida May (Apr 26, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> Let's cut our defense spending to Dutch levels (about 1.4 percent of GDP instead of 3.5 percent).  That way, when the Russians invade Ukraine and the Ukrainians ask for arms, we can send them...what?  Wheels of Gouda cheese?


 That is very good Military-Industrial Complex thinking, and what I want to say is a whole different topic.  Our conflict with Puttin is like looking in a mirror and finding fault with ourselves.  We have lost our understanding of what made the US a world leader and now argue in favor of dumping our disabled people on the streets and using the police to drive them away and keep them out of sight?   Poverty kills and civilization might want to pay attention to that.  We are the richest nation in the world and what we should be proud of is our military strength?  That is like a college being proud of its football team, and not noticing the importance of all the other graduates.


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## Vida May (Apr 26, 2022)

Autumn72 said:


> I am in total agreement with all you have said.
> Renting from Property management places is unfair treatment for sure as I see it.
> I found the issues are this way is partly by government systems to it seems to make a gain of jobs for younger people without the Respect for the elderly.
> I remember long ago thinking if I married I would have a family to care for and on return as I earned it means I would be respected by my needs being taken care of by my own family that now is estranged to me.
> ...


 Oh God girl we have to talk!  I am afraid my time restraints make me look like I am ignoring everyone and then hogging all the attention by posting too much.  I am so sorry about this problem.  

This is off topic but if you want we can do a different thread about why in the 1970s we announced a national youth crisis.  We do not have the family life and social order we expected because we stopped educating for that social order and prepared everyone for the Military-Industrial Complex.  Yes, they are busy paying taxes.  That is essential to having a high tech military, and when it comes to human values, that is a burden we have rejected.  

Next issue, Half our population cared for the young, the old and disabled, and the ill for free!  We did it because that is what a good woman does.   If we did work we worked for very low wages because it was meaningful work or just because women were locked out of better education and better jobs.  I am out of time.  But we gave and gave and gave and yes, I think we are entitled!


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## Jeni (Apr 26, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Why weren't they interviewing people who were living month-to-month, paying $800 per month and whose rent had increased to $1,500 per month?  These are the people who are losing housing completely.  BTW, rhetorical question.


good question indeed ...
i find most of these news stories that simply they did not THINK about how it would look to the viewer ....
no one i know would feel sorry for someone who was comfortable paying 3000 a month but  NEWS addressing the lower end opens a can of worms about how many will end up on street or couch surfing perhaps.

Comparing to other countries that are a fraction of size  and not as diverse etc is not a real comparison.....


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## Don M. (Apr 26, 2022)

One of the biggest reasons for people living in poverty....and seldom mentioned....IMO, is Divorce.  Today, almost 40% of marriages end up in divorce.  The old "adage" of "two can live as cheaply as one" holds a lot of truth.  When a couple splits, they have to contend with all the expenses of maintaining two households, which leaves both parties with limited means of saving for their retirements.  

Marriage is certainly a challenge...staying together for decades can be difficult.  But, if a person can learn to compromise, and not engage in arguments over every little issue, they stand a far better chance of not having to face a bleak retirement.


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## JimBob1952 (Apr 26, 2022)

Vida May said:


> That is very good Military-Industrial Complex thinking, and what I want to say is a whole different topic.  Our conflict with Puttin is like looking in a mirror and finding fault with ourselves.  We have lost our understanding of what made the US a world leader and now argue in favor of dumping our disabled people on the streets and using the police to drive them away and keep them out of sight?   Poverty kills and civilization might want to pay attention to that.  We are the richest nation in the world and what we should be proud of is our military strength?  That is like a college being proud of its football team, and not noticing the importance of all the other graduates.




I didn't say anything about being proud of our military strength.  My point is that Western European countries are free to spend more on social services because they rely on the US to shoulder the burden of defending them.   If those countries would pay their fair share (at least meet their NATO obligations) perhaps we would have more to spend on social services ourselves.  As it is we are $30 trillion in debt and the hole gets deeper every day.


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## JimBob1952 (Apr 26, 2022)

By the way, the interest on that $30 trillion is about $400 billion a year.  That would buy a lot of elder care.  People don't realize that we have spent ourselves into a terrible predicament.


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## Don M. (Apr 26, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> By the way, the interest on that $30 trillion is about $400 billion a year.  That would buy a lot of elder care.  People don't realize that we have spent ourselves into a terrible predicament.


Yup, and that 400 million/yr. going to bond holders is at the present Fed rates of nearly Zero.  If the Fed increases its rates substantially, half or more of the annual budget will be going towards interest on this National Debt.  This nation is going to suffer greatly due to debt.


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## Vida May (Apr 27, 2022)

This post is intentionally deleted.


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## Vida May (Apr 27, 2022)

Don M. and JimBob​

What if the government owned social media and could run it for the same profits private industry does?  And what if each state had its own theme park for the purpose of collecting state revenue?  There are great ways to raise revenue and I think we should start being creative and stop being trapped in doom and gloom.


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## Leann (Apr 27, 2022)

Don M. said:


> One of the biggest reasons for people living in poverty....and seldom mentioned....IMO, is Divorce.  Today, almost 40% of marriages end up in divorce.  The old "adage" of "two can live as cheaply as one" holds a lot of truth.  When a couple splits, they have to contend with all the expenses of maintaining two households, which leaves both parties with limited means of saving for their retirements.
> 
> Marriage is certainly a challenge...staying together for decades can be difficult.  But, if a person can learn to compromise, and not engage in arguments over every little issue, they stand a far better chance of not having to face a bleak retirement.


I can attest to the financial challenges associated with divorce. My marriage was doomed after multiple instances of infidelity and abuse (all on his part) so there wasn't the remotest possibility of compromise for me. I was in my early 50s when we divorced and I was still working full-time. And yes, dividing assets at that late stage of life is financially difficult. But, through the grace of God, I landed on solid ground. Mind you, I'm not wealthy by most (any) standards but my primary goal after selling our marital home was to eventually buy a home of my own. Which I did. I felt safe and secure having a place to call my own.


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## officerripley (Apr 27, 2022)

Leann said:


> I can attest to the financial challenges associated with divorce. My marriage was doomed after multiple instances of infidelity and abuse (all on his part) so there wasn't the remotest possibility of compromise for me. I was in my early 50s when we divorced and I was still working full-time. And yes, dividing assets at that late stage of life is financially difficult. But, through the grace of God, I landed on solid ground. Mind you, I'm not wealthy by most (any) standards but my primary goal after selling our marital home was to eventually buy a home of my own. Which I did. I felt safe and secure having a place to call my own.


I agree with this too. Every single instance of divorce that I've known of with the exception of my own, one spouse or the other made out like a bandit and the other was impoverished. And I think that the reason my own didn't fall into that category was because we had no children.


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## Jeni (Apr 27, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Don M. and JimBob​
> 
> What if the government owned social media and could run it for the same profits private industry does?  And what if each state had its own theme park for the purpose of collecting state revenue?  There are great ways to raise revenue and I think we should start being creative and stop being trapped in doom and gloom.


have you ever seen a government run program that staying in budget let alone made a profit .....? 
when my state legalized recreational weed they promised the sun moon and stars to citizens about rolling in tax money ........
EXCEPT that the legal stuff  with all the added taxes.......from state approved stores cost 75% higher then street so most major users buy street ..........

They had promised huge fees to be a grower license etc.... yet no one is really watching found a man with Bogus license for the last few years selling to state oversight stores and a grow operation as big as 3 Costcos less then a block from the capital    
 too many in government do not have ANY  common sense or ANY real business skills.


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## Leann (Apr 27, 2022)

officerripley said:


> I agree with this too. Every single instance of divorce that I've known of with the exception of my own, one spouse or the other made out like a bandit and the other was impoverished. And I think that the reason my own didn't fall into that category was because we had no children.


In my case, it was my ex-husband who profited the most...initially. He was 10 years older than I and quickly remarried to a woman who was at least 20 years his junior who was unemployed. I think the intent was for them to not work and move outside of the United States to Latin America where they could have a good quality of life and live off of what he got in the divorce. I'm not sure what became of them nor do I wish to know.

My concern was to keep a roof over my head until I could own a house again someday. I continued working, saving as much as I could. It was challenging at times and I can't say that I am in the same financial position as I was when I was married but I am oh so much happier now.


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## Vida May (Apr 27, 2022)

Jeni said:


> have you ever seen a government run program that staying in budget let alone made a profit .....?
> when my state legalized recreational weed they promised the sun moon and stars to citizens about rolling in tax money ........
> EXCEPT that the legal stuff  with all the added taxes.......from state approved stores cost 75% higher then street so most major users buy street ..........
> 
> ...



 I had not thought of that money scheme.  How about the money it makes on booze though?



> In 2020, revenue from alcohol tax in the United States amounted to *9.49 billion U.S. dollars*. The forecast predicts an increase in alcohol tax revenue up to 9.53 billion U.S. dollars in 2026. The total revenue of the U.S. government in 2020 totaled to 3.42 trillion U.S. dollars.Aug 3, 2021
> • U.S. - alcohol tax revenue 2026 | Statista​





> In most states, the legal burden of remitting beer excise taxes falls on retailers, but some collection variations exist from state to state. For instance, some states levy taxes further up the supply chain by taxing brewers, importers, or other wholesalers at a percentage of revenue generated or at a fixed price per gallon, bottle, or case of beer sold. Many states also generate revenue by collecting license fees from beer distributors.
> https://taxfoundation.org/state-beer-taxes-2021/





> The increased cigarette tax by $2 per pack is projected to yield an annual revenue of *$134.86 million*. Lane County passed the tobacco and nicotine tax 67.2% to 32.8% with a major lead from voters.Dec 30, 2020
> about the Oregon tobacco and nicotine tax increase that starts ...​



I never looked at things this way before.  I think some interesting philosophical questions could be asked about all the levels of government sucking off the ingenuity and work of others, rather than being the direct provider of something we all want and will gladly pay for. 

It is all rather confusing, isn't it?  We expect the people we put in office to make decisions that improve the economy.  But you are saying "too many in government do not have ANY  common sense or ANY real business skills."  We are a democracy.  That means we all hold responsibility for what happens.  Perhaps we need better organization and communication?

How about publically owned utilities?  Are they succeeding?

What if we all owned the hospitals in our communities?  Instead of paying for insurance, we own shares in our medical care systems?  Maybe we need to think outside of the box?


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## Vida May (Apr 27, 2022)

Leann said:


> I can attest to the financial challenges associated with divorce. My marriage was doomed after multiple instances of infidelity and abuse (all on his part) so there wasn't the remotest possibility of compromise for me. I was in my early 50s when we divorced and I was still working full-time. And yes, dividing assets at that late stage of life is financially difficult. But, through the grace of God, I landed on solid ground. Mind you, I'm not wealthy by most (any) standards but my primary goal after selling our marital home was to eventually buy a home of my own. Which I did. I felt safe and secure having a place to call my own.



There are people who have thought they must accumulate wealth and property and pass this on to the children, or at least the oldest son who has duties to the family.  We might want to rethink things like family relations and what are our rights and duties in the family?  Can even do that?  Our lives are so wrapped around careers and politics and religion, but what happened to thinking in terms of family?


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## Jeni (Apr 27, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I had not thought of that money scheme.  How about the money it makes on booze though?
> 
> I never looked at things this way before.  I think some interesting philosophical questions could be asked about all the levels of government sucking off the ingenuity and work of others, rather than being the direct provider of something we all want and will gladly pay for.
> 
> ...


the fact is many products are taxed at various levels of production on top of taxes to the actual consumer.........many states if you travel to others you may look at cost of cigarettes or alcohol etc and see a huge price discrepancy ....... because one state taxes heavy the other not.

I had private utilities in my first house and public in second ......... with NO explanation the public is costing me about 13- 15% more....most likely because Public options etc are subsidizing other items .. or diverting to other programs etc....



Vida May said:


> but what happened to thinking in terms of family


Family changed...... Many are estranged not like olden times where people just put up with mom and dad or the wayward child etc..... most cut them off.

Best thing to do like ANY troubled business etc is to go through the books line by line and fix the problem ....most government things have HIDDEN items..... paying for other programs with .02% of this fee or that fee UNRELATED items skimming off the top.


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## JimBob1952 (Apr 27, 2022)

Vida May said:


> Don M. and JimBob​
> 
> What if the government owned social media and could run it for the same profits private industry does?  And what if each state had its own theme park for the purpose of collecting state revenue?  There are great ways to raise revenue and I think we should start being creative and stop being trapped in doom and gloom.



Many states already run lotteries and collect enormous amounts of revenue that way.   Most states also have balanced budget requirements so that they can't run endless deficits.  

The idea of government-owned social media doesn't sit too well with me, but I do agree there are ways to raise revenue, lower costs and spend money more wisely.


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## Vida May (Apr 28, 2022)

Tish said:


> @Vida May I have to ask, are there no religious or mental health workers that go in once a week to clean and help them?
> Over here we have Baptist and Anglican care as well as Homecare nurses that will visit once or twice a week.
> I used to do home care nursing, which consisted of helping them bathe and checking on medications as well as treating wounds and basic medicals.



We have those services and I think it is pretty easy for social and mentally normal people to access help.  It is no problem if a person can pay for the services, but can be a problem for those who can not pay. The restrictions on getting help for low-income people can be a barrier. 

We have qualified people who are not capable of accessing services because of mental problems.  They have always been on the margin of society and do not know of the services or do not know how to access them.  For this reason, I would like a system that results in someone helping them access help, BEFORE, they are evicted.


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