# Study Says Covid-19 Has No Natural Ancestor And Was Created by Chinese Scientists.



## JonDouglas (May 28, 2021)

Story in the Daily Mail:

_An explosive new study claims that Chinese scientists created COVID-19 in a Wuhan lab, then tried to cover their tracks by reverse-engineering versions of the virus to make it look like it evolved naturally from bats. The paper's authors, British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen, wrote that they have had 'prima facie evidence of retro-engineering in China' for a year - but were ignored by academics and major journals.   _​​_Dalgleish is a professor of oncology at St George's University, London, and is best known for his breakthrough creating the first working 'HIV vaccine', to treat diagnosed patients and allow them to go off medication for months.  Sørensen, a virologist, is chair of pharmaceutical company, Immunor, which developed a coronavirus vaccine candidate called Biovacc-19. Dalgleish also has share options in the firm. _​​_The shocking allegations in the study include accusations of 'deliberate destruction, concealment or contamination of data' at Chinese labs, and it notes the silencing and disappearance of scientists in the communist country who spoke out. _​
More at Daily Mail Article


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## Don M. (May 28, 2021)

More and more sources are questioning the Chinese "official" claims, regarding the origins of this virus.  Perhaps, someday we will get the truth, and I seriously doubt that "bats" will be involved.


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## Murrmurr (May 28, 2021)

I remember British medical people deciding to investigate this last year while the media was categorizing any talk of lab origin as conspiracy theory. Major media outlets refused to publish their findings. Seems we're moving past that kind of censorship.


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## Devi (May 28, 2021)

You're right, @Murrmurr -- all that has to be done to dismiss something is to label it a conspiracy theory.

Good that this is finally coming out.


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## chic (May 29, 2021)

And the so called conspiracy theorists are proven correct again. We need to be able to have serious discussions with one another again with labeling each other which solves nothing. Communication is so vital. This is how we will find the way out of this, but together.


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## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2021)

Daily Mail​

​QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​A questionable source exhibits _one or more_ of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the _deliberate attempt_ to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category _may_ be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list _are not_ considered _fake news_ unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.


*Overall, we rate Daily Mail Right Biased and Questionable due to numerous failed fact checks and poor information sourcing.*
*https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/*


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## JonDouglas (May 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> Daily Mail​
> 
> ​QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​A questionable source exhibits _one or more_ of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the _deliberate attempt_ to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category _may_ be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list _are not_ considered _fake news_ unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.
> 
> ...



Is it true that those who don't like or can't attack the substance of the article tend to attack or impugn the source?  It is a time-tested, political tactic and one of the "Rules for Radicals".  I don't think the Daily Mail is the only source of this information so you may have more work to do.


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## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2021)

I hear what you are saying. I just spent quite awhile trying to find another source for this new study. Right now many sites have copied the Daily Mails article. It is because the Daily Mail claims "*DailyMail.com exclusively obtained the new 22-page paper authored by British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen set to be published in the Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery*

Until the study is made public, so we can verify what it says, we are taking only the Daily Mails account. If anyone can find the study, I want to see it. This kind of news has some major implications if true.


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## JonDouglas (May 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I hear what you are saying. I just spent quite awhile trying to find another source for this new study. Right now many sites have copied the Daily Mails article. It is because the Daily Mail claims "*DailyMail.com exclusively obtained the new 22-page paper authored by British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen set to be published in the Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery*
> 
> Until the study is made public, so we can verify what it says, we are taking only the Daily Mails account. If anyone can find the study, I want to see it. This kind of news has some major implications if true.


The main purpose of my posting this was to bring the story/study into the light for people to see, make note of and/or pass judgement on.  Ignoring the story or suggestively impugning it by trying to put down the source, for whatever reason, does a disservice to people capable of thinking for themselves.


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## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2021)

I am making no judgement on anything here. The source rated the Daily Mail as questionable. Let people google it's veracity and find out for themselves. We have not seen the study. It is second hand reporting and that is how rumors are spread from source to source. It can be dangerous.

"The main purpose of my posting this was to bring the story/study into the light for people to see." It is not in the light. It is in the shadows.


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## JonDouglas (May 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I am making no judgement on anything here. The source rated the Daily Mail as questionable. Let people google it's veracity and find out for themselves. We have not seen the study. It is second hand reporting and that is how rumors are spread from source to source. It can be dangerous.
> 
> "The main purpose of my posting this was to bring the story/study into the light for people to see." It is not in the light. It is in the shadows.


Let me try this from another direction.  The source (i.e., The Daily Mail) was not and should not have been an issue.  The possible existence of an important study was the issue and of sufficient potential importance that folks should be aware of it.  Making people aware of it brings it out of the shadows and into the light of things to be aware of and check out.  So what if the study isn't published yet?  Increased awareness and notoriety does put light on it. 

I am very sure there are a good number of people, especially the CCP and its minions, who want this story buried or labled false and the first thing they often do is try to shoot down the messenger.


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## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2021)

I don't think what you think is realistic. If that study were to be published and we could read it, it would be MAJOR news. It is hearsay until then...rumor...unverified.


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## JonDouglas (May 29, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I don't think what you think is realistic. If that study were to be published and we could read it, it would be MAJOR news. It is hearsay until then...rumor...unverified.


Well, for better or worse, it is "major news"  in that the powers at be in DC and other independent labs have been investigating the non-native nature of the virus.  You see, the "study" and the Mail report are not the first instance of this claim.  You might want to wonder why Facebook has stopped banning posts about the virus being man made - or not.  The issue is the claim, not whether some single study has been published.


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## Paco Dennis (May 29, 2021)

I know about the timeline of reports, and it is still under investigation. I want to know the truth, but this is one of those MAJOR news item that might not ever be answered. I just watched a video of the conclusions an independent research team did on the J.F.K. assassination.  They concluded that the secret service man in the passenger seat shot the President by accident while turning around to face him. 
Did that surprise me! JFK: The Smoking Gun I also hope the increasing reports of UFO sightings will soon lead to the truth about what is going on there...but it is still hidden. Some unsolved mysteries are solved and many never are.


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## Paco Dennis (May 30, 2021)

This story, which is BIG NEWS, just was reported by Fox News!

Explosive study claims to prove Chinese scientists created COVID​
This might get very interesting.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> This story, which is BIG NEWS, just was reported by Fox News!
> 
> Explosive study claims to prove Chinese scientists created COVID​
> This might get very interesting.


Perhaps you missed reading the story in the Daily Mail that was in the OP, because Fox is just reporting on and referring to that Daily Mail story.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

*The Dragon's Footprint*_: _There is an interesting op-ed piece of that title in the Pioneer India (Delhi) by the Chairman, Khadi and Village Industries Commission, New Delhi.

_Surprisingly, the virus affects only the countries that may have a capacity to control China’s hegemonist ambitions and not those securing aid and assistance from it_​​_It is widely suspected that the COVID-19 virus was manufactured in a laboratory in China and was let loose on the world. It is China which is thus claimed to be largely responsible for the loss of more than 3.3 million lives and causing untold suffering to a far greater number of people. _​​_If we look at the list of death by countries, we will see that over half a million died in USA, the biggest trade and military rival of China.  Brazil and India, which are the two major members of the BRIC countries that together could make a formidable power of challenge to China have collectively recorded over another half a million deaths.   Western European countries, which are allies of US and are power partners in the UN and NATO and dominate the world of commerce and military under the patronage and partnership of US, have collectively seen another half a million deaths. _​​_Actually, a laboratory manufactured agent of death has allegedly been unleashed into countries that are the major threat and hurdle in China’s marathon 100-year run to finish as the world’s largest super power. In about a year, not just death, the health and hygiene framework and the economic fabric of these countries have been damaged to such an extent that the recovery could take years. On top of that, these nations, mostly democratic, are now facing people’s ire due to unquantifiable suffering, and very stable political governance systems have been shaken to the core. This kind of warfare has never been witnessed before in human history._​​- - - - more at source - - -​​This, by the way, is the kind of story the bureaucrats at Foggy Bottom (i.e. the State Department and other govt. agencies) might prefer you didn't read.  You can be 100% certain it's not the story the CCP wants you to read.  Regardless, it's a hypothesis worth keeping in mind.


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## hollydolly (May 30, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I am making no judgement on anything here. The source rated the Daily Mail as questionable. Let people google it's veracity and find out for themselves. We have not seen the study. It is second hand reporting and that is how rumors are spread from source to source. It can be dangerous.
> 
> "The main purpose of my posting this was to bring the story/study into the light for people to see." It is not in the light. It is in the shadows.


however the Daily mail has over 2 million readers, who will take this very  seriously...not everything written in the DM is entirely wrong.. in fact the DM has exposed many serious issues in the past that were dismissed by the ''this is a comic'' brigade..only for them to be proven at a later date, and is the most read tabloid online ..


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## StarSong (May 30, 2021)

Evidence increasingly points toward a bio-engineered corona virus variant accidentally escaping Wuhan's lab due to sloppy procedures.  

Not sure what consequences China will suffer even if that's proven beyond all doubt.


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## Paco Dennis (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Perhaps you missed reading the story in the Daily Mail that was in the OP, because Fox is just reporting on and referring to that Daily Mail story.


No, I read it, and was cautious about accepting it. Since then I have been researching it. This same kind of discussion erupted on another forum. Someone posted the article from the Daily Mail and the responses were very similar. BUT today is a new day, and maybe the Daily Mail has once again helped get us closer to the truth. I read an article that said that the old meme about "tabloid news" being mainly embellished or false has changed in the past couple years. Much of what they print is indeed factual stuff, but the main stream media won't cover it because of it's cultural bias. 
  I just googled to find out if more outlets are covering this story and it has spread. I found at least 70 articles referring to the Daily Mail article.

  Biden has just announced a deep investigation into the viruses' origin, to be finished in 90 days. This is starting to feel like the unraveling of  Watergate!  We know what happened then.


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## garyt1957 (May 30, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I hear what you are saying. I just spent quite awhile trying to find another source for this new study. Right now many sites have copied the Daily Mails article. It is because the Daily Mail claims "*DailyMail.com exclusively obtained the new 22-page paper authored by British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen set to be published in the Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery*
> 
> Until the study is made public, so we can verify what it says, we are taking only the Daily Mails account. If anyone can find the study, I want to see it. This kind of news has some major implications if true.


I don't see how this is a Right or Left political issue, so whether the DM is right leaning means nothing to me. CNN is even on this now. I've been posting on this for months. There were likely political reasons why people tried to kill this story early on, though


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Is it true that those who don't like or can't attack the substance of the article tend to attack or impugn the source?  It is a time-tested, political tactic and one of the "Rules for Radicals".


...a good example of this is the attacks on the news media by the former administration.   Of course, the constant attacks on Dr. Fauci continue to this day with the same kind of political tactic.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

As a footnote, the Sunday Times is now reporting that British intelligence agencies now think the Wuhan lab leak is "feasible"  .  Article is HERE.


Nathan said:


> ...a good example of this is the attacks on the news media by the former administration.   Of course, the constant attacks on Dr. Fauci continue to this day with same kind of political tactic.


How about let's leave politics out of these discussions (i.e. "former administration").  As for Fauci,  that flip-flopping, camera-loving bureaucrat has brought it on himself.  He is now the very face of the covid debacle.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> As a footnote, the Sunday Times is now reporting that British intelligence agencies now think the Wuhan lab leak is "feasible"  .  Article is HERE.
> 
> How about let's leave politics out of these discussions (i.e. "former administration").  As for Fauci,  that flip-flopping, camera-loving bureaucrat has brought it on himself.  He is now the very face of the covid debacle.


YOU mentioned politics...but now it's "How about let's leave politics out of these discussions"...can you see any irony in this at all?


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> As for Fauci,  that flip-flopping, camera-loving bureaucrat has brought it on himself.  He is now the very face of the covid debacle.


I am beginning to get the impression that you're not a Dr. Fauci fan at all.  Perhaps that's because he has exhibited the moral fortitude and conviction to stand up and reject the bullying lodged at him, from partisan figures.


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## chic (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I am beginning to get the impression that you're not a Dr. Fauci fan at all. hey Perhaps that's because he has exhibited the moral fortitude and conviction to stand up and reject the bullying lodged at him, from partisan figures.


Fauci has a vested interest in vaccines and has since the 1980's. Scientists can lie you know. And since they appear credible more people will believe them.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I am beginning to get the impression that you're not a Dr. Fauci fan at all.  Perhaps that's because he has exhibited the moral fortitude and conviction to stand up and reject the bullying lodged at him, from partisan figures.


Well, lest  you suffer from whatever impressions I give you about Facui,  here's another.  It's titled *How Anthony Fauci Made Himself The Face Of America's Institutional Decay*.  Here's a snippet of someone else's opinion.

Few events have accelerated Western institutional decay as the coronavirus pandemic, and it’s been Dr. Anthony Fauci’s foot on the gas.​​As the pandemic sunsets on the United States, the nation stands far weaker, rocked by a public health emergency driving up debt and division amid a polarizing presidential election while political elites capitalized on the virus for ulterior ends. Legacy media got more irresponsible, big tech got more unfair, and half the population comfortably shut down their neighbors’ livelihoods in seeking an impossible life with zero risk, as if the virus had the potential to wipe out the human race.​- - - - - - -​Fauci lied about herd immunity too, first placing the number at 60 to 70 percent vaccination. Later, he upped the number to “70, 75 percent,” before it went up again to “75, 80, 85 percent.” Fauci admitted in December he was lying about required levels of vaccination to hit herd immunity because he kept reading about Americans hesitant to accept the vaccine.​- - - - - - -​As the face of the masks, the face of the lockdowns, and possibly even the face of the pandemic, Fauci also became the face of accelerating institutional decay, a political figure whose abject dismissal of alternative strategies amid high-stakes crises left a nation weaker and more divided than in decades. Worse, Fauci has become the face of lost time, lost opportunities, lost businesses, lost graduations, lost holidays, lost concerts, lost weddings, and lost futures for children.​​You can read the whole article here in The Federalist. This type of opinion is gaining majority. History will likely not look kindly on Fauci.​


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

chic said:


> Fauci has a vested interest in vaccines and has since the 1980's. Scientists can lie you know. And since they appear credible more people will believe them.


Are you suggesting that Dr. Fauci has a "vested" interest in vaccines, as in *financially*?  
Can you offer some credible proof of that?

I am sure that it is true that Dr. Fauci has a keene interest in vaccines, being that his entire 50 year career has been that of an immunologist.

Of course scientists can lie(they're Human), and may exhibit *more credibility* than say, some partisan hack trying to weaponize the pandemic conversation.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

@JonDouglas
"Fauci *admitted* in December *he was lying*............"

He used the word lying to describe himself?  Link please, using those words.

eta--a mistake is not a deliberate lie


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Are you suggesting that Dr. Fauci has a "vested" interest in vaccines, as in *financially*?
> Can you offer some credible proof of that?
> 
> I am sure that it is true that Dr. Fauci has a keene interest in vaccines, being that his entire 50 year career has been that of an immunologist.
> ...


Fauci is the highest paid employee in the Federal government, so one might think he has a vested financial interest in his highly paid job.  I doubt if he has any direct financial interest (e.g., stocks) in any of the vaccine companies or their affiliates. .


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Well, lest  you suffer from whatever impressions I give you about Facui,  here's another.  It's titled *How Anthony Fauci Made Himself The Face Of America's Institutional Decay*. Here's a snippet of someone else's opinion.


@JonDouglas , please don't worry about my "suffering", biased partisan opinion has absolutely no effect on my well being.   
My only concern is the unchecked spread of misinformation, which I will continue to push back on.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> @JonDouglas
> "Fauci *admitted* in December *he was lying*............"
> 
> He used the word lying to describe himself?  Link please, using those words.


With all due respect, that's what the article said.  Not being your personal research assistant, may I kindly suggest you chase it down.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> @JonDouglas , please don't worry about my "suffering", biased partisan opinion has absolutely no effect on my well being.
> My only concern is the unchecked spread of misinformation, which I will continue to push back on.


LOL, I don't worry about it all but you seem with all your follow-on responses to my posts.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> With all due respect, that's what the article said.  Not being your personal research assistant, may I kindly suggest you chase it down.


Because it doesn't exist obviously.  I won't be your dog chasing cars, thank you for trying to fill up my day.

ps.  What article?  What's it's title?  What's the name of the magazine, newspaper or online site? Authored by whom?  Not being born yesterday it looks like it was made up by you.  It's not my job, it's your job.  I am *sussing *this out and that's what I see.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> LOL, I don't worry about it all but you seem with all your follow-on responses to my posts.


I sleep like a baby, my follow up responses are the "push back" I mentioned.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Because it doesn't exist obviously.  I won't be your dog chasing cars, thank you for trying to fill up my day.
> 
> ps.  What article?  What's it's title?  What's the name of the magazine, newspaper or online site? Authored by whom?  Not being born yesterday it looks like it was made up by you.  It's not my job


Google is your friend unless, of course, you don't like what it tells you., you don't know how to use it or are too lazy.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I sleep like a baby, my follow up responses are the "push back" I mentioned.


Well, I am confident that most of us are happy you do sleep well.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Google is your friend unless, of course, you don't like what it tells you., you don't know how to use it or are too lazy.


Nope.  I sussed you out and I don't like what I'm seeing.  You know very well you're boxed in, so you divert, digress, call names but won't give out the information you claim you have because it does not exist.  I'm calling BS


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Nope.  I sussed you out and I don't like what I'm seeing.  You know very well you're boxed in, so you divert, digress, call names but won't give out the information you claim you have because it does not exist.  I'm calling BS


OK, whatever makes you feel good.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

Yes, there are many folks who opine that Dr. Fauci lied.  However, he never said he lied, as in your claim.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Yes, there are many folks who opine that Dr. Fauci lied.  However, he never said he lied, as in your claim.


Well, since you still don't seem to be acting happy about how you "sussed" me out, How about NY Magazine? 
Panicker-in-Chief Claims He Lied About COVID-19 to ‘Reduce Panic’​


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

SEPT. 9, 2020

Panicker-in-Chief Claims He Lied About COVID-19 to ‘Reduce Panic’​is about our former president, not Dr. Fauci.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/09/trump-claims-covid-19-lies-were-to-reduce-panic.html


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> SEPT. 9, 2020
> 
> Panicker-in-Chief Claims He Lied About COVID-19 to ‘Reduce Panic’​is about our former president, not Dr. Fauci.
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/09/trump-claims-covid-19-lies-were-to-reduce-panic.html


Ops, I apologize, I got the wrong article


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> The link is to NY Magazine and is about Fauci, not the former president.  Reality is your friend.


OMG.  Now I'm worried about you.  Fauci's name isn't even mentioned in this article.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> OMG.  Now I'm worried about you.  Fauci's name isn't even mentioned in this article.


I hit the wrong button and the system posted the wrong article and link.  It was from RealClear Health and Washington Examiner entitled.
Fauci's 'noble lies' catch up to him​
Edit Note:   Trying to juggle too many conversations on multiple forums while still working on photo post-editing is stupid and can lead to mistakes on the things you're working on.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

I'm going to end this @JonDouglas while I still think you're cute.


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## Murrmurr (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I'm going to end this @JonDouglas while I still think you're cute.


Got your morning kvetching out of the way?


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Got your morning kvetching out of the way?


Yes.  Now to begin this afternoon's kvetching.  Thanks for the reminder


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## Murrmurr (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Yes.  Now to begin this afternoon's kvetching.  Thanks for the reminder


Anytime, Peps.


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## Sunny (May 30, 2021)

The "lie" being referred to was invented by Rand Paul, the super right-wing Senator from Kentucky, who obviously has it in for Dr. Fauci. Rand Paul is notorious for this kind of stuff; the truth is a concept far from the world he lives in. "Facts" exist only to bolster his own political fortunes.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Sunny said:


> The "lie" being referred to was invented by Rand Paul, the super right-wing Senator from Kentucky, who obviously has it in for Dr. Fauci. Rand Paul is notorious for this kind of stuff; the truth is a concept far from the world he lives in. "Facts" exist only to bolster his own political fortunes.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research


Sorry but Rand Paul is just one of a number of people who found that Fauci lied.  The fact that he flip-flopped so much suggests he is either a ribald liar, political hack or a blithering idiot.  It's only hard for Fauci-fans to grasp this concept.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Sorry but Rand Paul is just one of a number of people who found that Fauci lied.  The fact that he flip-flopped so much suggests he is either a ribald liar, political hack or a blithering idiot.  It's only hard for Fauci-fans to grasp this concept.


There is no proof of your assertion, only politically motivated opinion pieces.     Only those seeking the truth will grasp this concept.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> There is no proof of your assertion, only politically motivated opinion pieces.     Only those seeking the truth will grasp this concept.


LOL, there you go again, trying to label people as political.  There's an old saying, "Physician heal thyself."  Good luck with that.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

Sunny said:


> The "lie" being referred to was invented by Rand Paul, the super right-wing Senator from Kentucky, who obviously has it in for Dr. Fauci. Rand Paul is notorious for this kind of stuff; the truth is a concept far from the world he lives in. "Facts" exist only to bolster his own political fortunes.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/rand-paul-dr-fauci-lied-congress-china-virus-research


Yes,  only blithering idiots would buy into Rand's mindless rantings.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> LOL, there you go again, trying to label people as political.  There's an old saying, "Physician heal thyself."  Good luck with that.


@JonDouglas , nice attempt to evade your own words, however- anyone that can read English will learn of your subterfuge.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Yes,  only blithering idiots would buy into Rand's mindless rantings.


I am guessing they have these in your size.  To some he's the patron saint of "stay home and double-mask up."


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I am guessing they have these in your size.  To some he's the patron saint of "stay home and double-mask up."


Lol, it looks like my "blithering idiot" comment struck home with you, huh?
Here's your T- shirt, enjoy.


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## Furryanimal (May 30, 2021)

No idea if this is true or not-and I am not a fan of the Daily Mail-but when Covid first came to light China was quite desperate to get foreigners in the Wuhan area out of the country.Always been suspicious of that.
And I have always been suspicious of just how quickly it spread around the planet.
I’ve always suspected this virus did not occur naturally.If this report can be proven I would be delighted.
Edit...this story has been picked up by several British newspapers including the broadsheets.So it may have some traction.


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## Becky1951 (May 30, 2021)

I have always liked Dr Fauci however I have also lost some confidence in what he says, but here's why, he may know ahead of time about certain aspects of this virus and the vaccines, maybe not 100% positive but he knows the direction that maybe a certain mutation, or an effect may bring about. But if its a negative outcome, he is not allowed to openly express that to the public, his hands are tied by higher ups. That old "lets not cause panic yet"  

He is human also, humans make mistakes large and small. I'm sure the man has lost many sleepless nights worrying about this virus, about how to curb it, lessens its effects etc.

Is he making money from the vaccines? Maybe so, but I doubt he is rubbing his hands together in glee about it, instead I think he wringing his hands in sorrow over lives lost. Just my opinion.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Lol, it looks like my "blithering idiot" comment struck home with you, huh?
> Here's your T- shirt, enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 167308


I will see your paul shirt and raise you a "couchy fauci" pillow for your sofa.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

@Becky1951,    Thank you for your thoughtful, balanced comments.      As with any human, Dr. Fauci has his faults.  Evidently there are those who have a specific agenda for painting Dr. Fauci in as negative a manner as possible.

At the conclusion of this Covid-19 pandemic, Dr. Fauci will go his way, we will all go in our own directions, and the forces of darkness will always be looking for the next opportunity.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Ops, I apologize, I got the wrong article


Are you also apologizing for removing your original post here and substituting it?  Gosh, I hate when that happens.


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## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I will see your paul shirt and raise you a "couchy fauci" pillow for your sofa.


Priceless!


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Are you also apologizing for removing your original post here and substituting it?  Gosh, I hate when that happens.


Oh, it's you again.  Surely you have something better to do than interrupt two old farts having a Fauci fight.  Go away and let us battle to accessorizing death.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Oh, it's you again.  Surely you have something better to do than interrupt two old farts having a Fauci fight.  Go away and let us battle to accessorizing death.


I want to apologize for that last remark concerning the edit.  It was mean, I didn't have to say it, and I'm sorry.


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## Pepper (May 30, 2021)

PS
I have absolutely nothing better to do and also am a member of the old farts army.


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## JonDouglas (May 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I want to apologize for that last remark concerning the edit.  It was mean, I didn't have to say it, and I'm sorry.


Apology accepted but only if you either stay off the Fauci accessory battlefield or find us something better to fight about/with.


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## Sunny (May 31, 2021)

And the Blithering Award goes to JonDouglas!  Congrats, JD!

And the next award, the Sci-Fi prize, goes to the creative gentleman who revealed to us the truth that children are being kidnapped and sent to Mars to be trained as child sex slaves, requiring NASA to respond (managing to keep a straight face) that this is not true, there are no human beings on Mars at all.

https://nypost.com/2017/06/30/nasa-clarifies-we-dont-have-child-sex-slaves-on-mars/


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## JonDouglas (May 31, 2021)

Sunny said:


> And the Blithering Award goes to JonDouglas!  Congrats, JD!
> 
> And the next award, the Sci-Fi prize, goes to the creative gentleman who revealed to us the truth that children are being kidnapped and sent to Mars to be trained as child sex slaves, requiring NASA to respond (managing to keep a straight face) that this is not true, there are no human beings on Mars at all.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2017/06/30/nasa-clarifies-we-dont-have-child-sex-slaves-on-mars/


LOL, running low on things to do, something of substance to post or people to insult?


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## JonDouglas (May 31, 2021)

Interesting article entitled *Death Toll Exceeds a Million in Chinese Vaccine-Reliant Latin America*.  Intro snippet below.

_In a statement released on May 21, the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) said that as of May 21, nearly 89 percent of deaths in Latin America and the Caribbean occurred in Brazil (44.3 percent), Mexico (22.1 percent), Colombia (8.3 percent), Argentina (7.3 percent) and Peru (6.7 percent). Three percent of the deaths were concentrated in Central America and one percent in the Caribbean._​​_As of May 31, Brazil had more than 462,000 deaths attributed to the epidemic, the second highest death toll in the world after the United States. India, with more than 329,000 deaths, ranks second in the world, followed by Mexico with more than 223,000 deaths._​​_Currently, the PAHO has delivered more than 12 million doses of vaccines procured through the World Health Organization’s COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access initiative to Latin America and the Caribbean, with an additional 770,000 doses being shipped to these areas._​​_According to the data of the PAHO, several Latin American countries, including Chile, El Salvador, Brazil, and Uruguay, rely almost entirely on vaccines produced in China._​
More at source.


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## Sunny (May 31, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> LOL, running low on things to do, something of substance to post or people to insult?


Nah, that's something we never seem to fun low on around here!


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## AnnieA (May 31, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> Daily Mail​
> 
> ​QUESTIONABLE SOURCE​A questionable source exhibits _one or more_ of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the _deliberate attempt_ to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category _may_ be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list _are not_ considered _fake news_ unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.
> 
> ...



Daily Mail is a mixed bag.  In addition to tabloid celebrity trash, they are often the first to break legitimate, factual news.

Saying again. ...It's not the source, it's verifiable content.   It's intellectually lazy to wholeheartedly embrace or reject a source.  Analyze each article, compare with other sources and look for kernels of truth in today's polarized media.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 2, 2021)

Newsweek:  *How Amateur Sleuths Broke the Wuhan Lab Story and Embarrassed the Media*

_For most of last year, the idea that the coronavirus pandemic could have been triggered by a laboratory accident in Wuhan, China, was largely dismissed as a racist conspiracy theory of the alt-right. The Washington Post in early 2020 accused Senator Tom Cotton of "fanning the embers of a conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly debunked by experts." CNN jumped in with "How to debunk coronavirus conspiracy theories and misinformation from friends and family." Most other mainstream outlets, from The New York Times ("fringe theory") to NPR ("Scientists debunk lab accident theory"), were equally dismissive. (Newsweek was an exception, reporting in April 2020 that the WIV was involved in gain-of-function research and might have been the site of a lab leak; Mother Jones, Business Insider, the NY Post and FOX News were also exceptions.) But in the last week or so, the story has burst into the public discourse. President Joe Biden has demanded an investigation by U.S. intelligence. And the mainstream media, in an astonishing about-face, is treating the possibility with deadly seriousness._​​_The reason for the sudden shift in attitudes is clear: over the weeks and months of the pandemic, the pileup of circumstantial evidence pointing to the Wuhan lab kept growing—until it became too substantial to ignore.  The people responsible for uncovering this evidence are not journalists or spies or scientists. They are a group of amateur sleuths, with few resources except curiosity and a willingness to spend days combing the internet for clues. Throughout the pandemic, about two dozen or so correspondents, many anonymous, working independently from many different countries, have uncovered obscure documents, pieced together the information, and explained it all in long threads on Twitter—in a kind of open-source, collective brainstorming session that was part forensic science, part citizen journalism, and entirely new._​- - - - - - - - - - -​More at the source.​
Well, darn.  Those pesky amateurs are at it again, mucking up the bureaucrats' best BS strategy; however, I don't think the media is embarassed.  They did what they were told..  Speaking of strategy, word on the street is that the administration is currently working on an exit strategy for certain individuals.  Under the bus with dignity and honor?


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## JonDouglas (Jun 6, 2021)

Another voice heard from - *WSJ:  The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak**.  *Below is the gist of the article.

_But the most compelling reason to favor the lab leak hypothesis is firmly based in science. In particular, consider the genetic fingerprint of CoV-2, the novel coronavirus responsible for the disease Covid-19. _​​More at source (paywall).​​You'd have to think the powers-at-be (i.e., Fauci and the CDC) would have known about the genetic footprint.   If not, they're incompetent.  If so, they were most likely trying to cover something up by pushing the bat cave theory.  If someone has a better explanation, let's hear it.

Edit Update:  Someone sent me a link to this video, which makes a reasonable attempt to discuss this issue in some detail, including  the topic of genetic fingerprinting.


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## maxHR (Jun 7, 2021)

Is the United states responsible for Covid 19?
The united states funded 'gain of function' research in the wuhan lab because it was too dangerous to do on home soil.
President Obama banned 'Gain of function 'research in 2014.
Fauci restarted it 2017, it lead to the lab modifying bat viruses so that they could spread to humans, hence the term 'gain of function'.

Vanity Fair has published a major expose on this subject, there is a lot of evidence now.
It is going to get ugly.


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## mellowyellow (Jun 8, 2021)

_Wikipedia__ editors have voted to ban the Daily Mail as a source for the website in all but exceptional circumstances after deeming the news group “generally unreliable”.

The move is highly unusual for the online encyclopaedia, which rarely puts in place a blanket ban on publications and which still allows links to sources such as Kremlin backed news organisation Russia Today, and Fox News, both of which have raised concern among editors.

The editors described the arguments for a ban as “centred on the Daily Mail’s reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism and flat-out fabrication”. _

Source: The Guardian
*https://www.theguardian.com/technol...s-daily-mail-as-unreliable-source-for-website*​


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## Mike (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> The main purpose of my posting this was to bring the story/study into the light for people to see, make note of and/or pass judgement on.  Ignoring the story or suggestively impugning it by trying to put down the source, for whatever reason, does a disservice to people capable of thinking for themselves.


Jon, there are some here who will attack any posting, where the proof
is a link to the Daily Mail, or any other newspaper that they don't like,
I have had it many times in the past where the subject of the thread is
not the newspaper.

Mike.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> _Wikipedia__ editors have voted to ban the Daily Mail as a source for the website in all but exceptional circumstances after deeming the news group “generally unreliable”.
> 
> The move is highly unusual for the online encyclopaedia, which rarely puts in place a blanket ban on publications and which still allows links to sources such as Kremlin backed news organisation Russia Today, and Fox News, both of which have raised concern among editors.
> 
> ...


Interesting.  Given that the Daily Mail often gets its stories from other news sources, you have to wonder how often the Wiki folks ban the other sources.  The idea of an open-source encyclopedia banning a newspaper seems ludicrous. With the Daily Mail, as with most media sources, you do need to check the story for some semblance of validity.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

maxHR said:


> Is the United states responsible for Covid 19?
> The united states funded 'gain of function' research in the wuhan lab because it was too dangerous to do on home soil.
> President Obama banned 'Gain of function 'research in 2014.
> Fauci restarted it 2017, it lead to the lab modifying bat viruses so that they could spread to humans, hence the term 'gain of function'.
> ...


I'd like to think China is mostly responsible for c19 and that that Fauci, not the U.S., was just an easily-led dupe/stooge in the process.  Given the most recent evidence of Fauci's love for the limelight and book about himself, one might speculate this he was still trying to be a great medical hero after how badly he bungled the AIDS/HIV work he did earlier.  The words "Napolean Complex" also come to mind with this guy.   I also think Fauci, either knowingly or unknowingly, let himself be used by some powerful political figures and forces.  It doesn't seem like a coincidence that Fauci was able to in certain circles of people who stood to benefit mightily from the lockdown.


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## garyt1957 (Jun 8, 2021)

maxHR said:


> Is the United states responsible for Covid 19?
> The united states funded 'gain of function' research in the wuhan lab because it was too dangerous to do on home soil.
> President Obama banned 'Gain of function 'research in 2014.
> Fauci restarted it 2017, it lead to the lab modifying bat viruses so that they could spread to humans, hence the term 'gain of function'.
> ...


 That wouldn't make the US responsible, after all the US wasn't responsible for the leak, or the coverup. The US might be responsible in a way for letting the research be done in a China lab which they knew was not entirely safe. I'm not sure why they'd fund an "enemy" or rival like China to do the work anyway. Imagine if they found something really deadly they could then use against us? That's like paying China to develop weapons for us, not smart.


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## 911 (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Newsweek:  *How Amateur Sleuths Broke the Wuhan Lab Story and Embarrassed the Media*
> 
> _For most of last year, the idea that the coronavirus pandemic could have been triggered by a laboratory accident in Wuhan, China, was largely dismissed as a racist conspiracy theory of the alt-right. The Washington Post in early 2020 accused Senator Tom Cotton of "fanning the embers of a conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly debunked by experts." CNN jumped in with "How to debunk coronavirus conspiracy theories and misinformation from friends and family." Most other mainstream outlets, from The New York Times ("fringe theory") to NPR ("Scientists debunk lab accident theory"), were equally dismissive. (Newsweek was an exception, reporting in April 2020 that the WIV was involved in gain-of-function research and might have been the site of a lab leak; Mother Jones, Business Insider, the NY Post and FOX News were also exceptions.) But in the last week or so, the story has burst into the public discourse. President Joe Biden has demanded an investigation by U.S. intelligence. And the mainstream media, in an astonishing about-face, is treating the possibility with deadly seriousness._​​_The reason for the sudden shift in attitudes is clear: over the weeks and months of the pandemic, the pileup of circumstantial evidence pointing to the Wuhan lab kept growing—until it became too substantial to ignore.  The people responsible for uncovering this evidence are not journalists or spies or scientists. They are a group of amateur sleuths, with few resources except curiosity and a willingness to spend days combing the internet for clues. Throughout the pandemic, about two dozen or so correspondents, many anonymous, working independently from many different countries, have uncovered obscure documents, pieced together the information, and explained it all in long threads on Twitter—in a kind of open-source, collective brainstorming session that was part forensic science, part citizen journalism, and entirely new._​- - - - - - - - - - -​More at the source.​
> Well, darn.  Those pesky amateurs are at it again, mucking up the bureaucrats' best BS strategy; however, I don't think the media is embarrassed.  They did what they were told..  Speaking of strategy, word on the street is that the administration is currently working on an exit strategy for certain individuals.  Under the bus with dignity and honor?


Last March, Dr. Redfield of the CDC was being interviewed on CNN and he made the statement that he thought it was possible that the Virus was created in the lab and then leaked. He continued by also saying, "...either way, science will figure it out." He was highly mocked for his statements by some members of Congress.

I agree with him. Science will figure it out.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

Read some more about the "lab theory" and guess who briefed world leaders over a year ago that the virus might have leaked from a lab.  You guessed it:  *More Evidence That Fauci Wasn't Being Straight With the American People*

_“I was told at that time, back in the spring [of 2020], that Dr. Fauci had gone over to a meeting of world health leaders in Europe around the World Health Assembly, and actually briefed them on the information that they were looking at — that this could have been a potential lab leak, that this strain looked unusual,” former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb said on CBS News’ “Face The Nation” on Sunday. “So those discussions were going on. And I was told that by a very senior official in the Trump administration. I’ve reconfirmed that conversation. That happened, you know, at the time contemporaneously with—with that meeting over a year ago. So I think early on when they looked at the strain, they had suspicions.”_​​_Gottlieb said that further analysis “dispelled some of those suspicions,” but Fauci publicly refuted the man-made virus theory for a year even though he was told in the early days of the pandemic that COVID-19 had “unusual features” that “potentially look engineered.”_​​_“On a phylogenetic tree the virus looks totally normal and the close clustering with bats suggest that bats serve as the reservoir. The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” NIH scientist Kristian Andersen told Fauci on February 1, 2020._​​More at Source.​
Note:  The source is not apolitical but has a record for being able to ferret out information.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

From Sky News Australia:


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Story in the Daily Mail:
> 
> _An explosive new study claims that Chinese scientists created COVID-19 in a Wuhan lab, then tried to cover their tracks by reverse-engineering versions of the virus to make it look like it evolved naturally from bats. The paper's authors, British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen, wrote that they have had 'prima facie evidence of retro-engineering in China' for a year - but were ignored by academics and major journals.   _​​_Dalgleish is a professor of oncology at St George's University, London, and is best known for his breakthrough creating the first working 'HIV vaccine', to treat diagnosed patients and allow them to go off medication for months.  Sørensen, a virologist, is chair of pharmaceutical company, Immunor, which developed a coronavirus vaccine candidate called Biovacc-19. Dalgleish also has share options in the firm. _​​_The shocking allegations in the study include accusations of 'deliberate destruction, concealment or contamination of data' at Chinese labs, and it notes the silencing and disappearance of scientists in the communist country who spoke out. _​
> More at Daily Mail Article


The Daily Mail is a tabloid, the same as the National Enquirer.  I wouldn't put much stock in what it has to say.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> The Daily Mail is a tabloid, the same as the National Enquirer.  I wouldn't put much stock in what it has to say.


As I mentioned to someone else, the Daily Mail gets its stories from so many other sources that you won't be able to put stock in anybody.  They're more like a news integrator with a coating of tabloid sensationalism.  If you fact check their stories, you'll find a good number of them are true to a great, if not 100%. Personally, I only quote the Mail when I know the story is up in other "more respectible" media.  Thus, when somebody hollers about the Mail, they often end up being embarrassed by the fact that the story has reliable "legs."  Also, welcome to the forum if I haven't said so already.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> As I mentioned to someone else, the Daily Mail gets its stories from so many other sources that you won't be able to put stock in anybody.  They're more like a news integrator with a coating of tabloid sensationalism.  If you fact check their stories, you'll find a good number of them are true to a great, if not 100%. Personally, I only quote the Mail when I know the story is up in other "more respectible" media.  Thus, when somebody hollers about the Mail, they often end up being embarrassed by the fact that the story has reliable "legs."  Also, welcome to the forum if I haven't said so already.


So, what "more respectable media" have this story?


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> So, what "more respectable media" have this story?


Oh, scandasia, theweek, indiatoday, skynewsAU, and others.  Of course to highly political partisans, nothing is respectable that doesn't play to their worldview.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Oh, scandasia, theweek, indiatoday, skynewsAU, and others.  Of course to highly political partisans, nothing is respectable that doesn't play to their worldview.


Since I haven't heard of these, I'd need to check them out for credibility.  I used to teach people how to do this, but don't feel like going through all of that at the moment; it's time consuming.  What I do know, however, is that it can take 7-8 years to figure out where something originated and that's if there's transparency and co-operation everywhere.  Since we don't have either from the Chinese and it's been only a very short time, there's no _possible _way that anyone can know where it came from.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Since I haven't heard of these, I'd need to check them out for credibility.  I used to teach people how to do this, but don't feel like going through all of that at the moment; it's time consuming.  What I do know, however, is that it can take 7-8 years to figure out where something originated and that's if there's transparency and co-operation everywhere.  Since we don't have either from the Chinese and it's been only a very short time, there's no _possible _way that anyone can know where it came from.


There is a another source to be considered - the network of contacts you have with people you trust to give you the best information they can.  These are often the people who break the stores the media picks up on.  You can't cite or publish these but you can use them to qualify what you see or hear elsewhere.  Pity the person who relies on the mainstream media and bureaucratic enclaves where they have to "craft" the narrative.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 8, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> There is a another source to be considered - the network of contacts you have with people you trust to give you the best information they can.  These are often the people who break the stores the media picks up on.  You can't cite or publish these but you can use them to qualify what you see or hear elsewhere.  Pity the person who relies on the mainstream media and bureaucratic enclaves where they have to "craft" the narrative.


This is true.  The only problem is that _often _these people are all getting their information from the same sources.  Therefore, it doesn't matter if one person, personally, uses a particular source or that person gets information from people who have gotten information from other people who got it from that source.  That's _one _way to tell that something doesn't smell quite right and needs a really careful look-see.

An example is some of the information retrieved from a web search.  Have you ever noticed how so many give the same information in the exact same words -- and not one of them quotes any source?  "But see -- all of these sources are saying the same thing!  It must be true!"  Nope. They're all just plagiarizing whatever source they're all copying.

You can believe me or not when I tell you that it's impossible to know at this point whether or not the virus came from a lab in Wuhan because it takes 7-8 years, etc. etc.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  However, it wouldn't hurt to _take it into consideration_ along with everything else when trying to make a self-determination as to whether the information is correct or not.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 9, 2021)

911 said:


> Last March, Dr. Redfield of the CDC was being interviewed on CNN and he made the statement that he thought it was possible that the Virus was created in the lab and then leaked. He continued by also saying, "...either way, science will figure it out." He was highly mocked for his statements by some members of Congress.
> 
> I agree with him. *Science will figure it out.*



There's always the downstream issue of what science someone is buying into:  Medical science, aerosol/fluidics science, political science or government propaganda purporting to be science.  When you hear, "The science is settled", you should assume it isn't.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 9, 2021)

I spent 28 years in public health. I didn't believe the alleged source of HIV when our big bosses came from the State Department of Health's main office in Trenton to fill us in on the very first (two) cases of this new mysterious disease. And I didn't believe the bats caused COVID story either. I suspected each may have been manufactured in labs and leaked whether by accident or with malicious intent. It will be interesting to see what the official, final report says.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 9, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> There's always the downstream issue of what science someone is buying into:  Medical science, aerosol/fluidics science, political science or government propaganda purporting to be science.  When you hear, "The science is settled", you should assume it isn't.


That's the way science works -- and the media doesn't help people to understand it.  The science is rarely (comparatively speaking) settled as far as scientists are concerned.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 9, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I spent 28 years in public health. I didn't believe the alleged source of HIV when our big bosses came from the State Department of Health's main office in Trenton to fill us in on the very first (two) cases of this new mysterious disease. And I didn't believe the bats caused COVID story either. I suspected each may have been manufactured in labs and leaked whether by accident or with malicious intent. It will be interesting to see what the official, final report says.


What do you believe now about HIV, OneEyed?  And what's your reasoning for that belief?  I'm just curious.


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