# Do they dead greet the dying?



## Gardenlover (Dec 5, 2020)

I had this conversation with my son recently, who is an RN in the ER and ICU departments of two different hospitals.

He's seen several end-of-life experiences and has no explanation for it.

Dreams, visions or something else entirely? A topic I'm sure we won't all agree on, but interesting to discuss.


----------



## katlupe (Dec 5, 2020)

I believe they do. I have seen more than a few people die and it left me believing that. I saw it with my own father and my mother-in-law both. It is usually during the transition period, which can sometimes be a few days.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Dec 5, 2020)

No, I think it is dreams / hallucinations.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 5, 2020)

When my father was dying he looked up toward the ceiling light and my mother asked him what was he looking at and he said his best friend (whom he had known since childhood and had died) was visiting him.  My mother asked what is he saying and my dad answered that his friend was giving him a bottle of liquor.  He saw this friend a number of times.  In life, they'd always gift each other with the most expensive liquors they could afford.

I lean toward it being an hallucination But, I myself have had strange sightings of stuff.  Back to dad, whatever it was, it brought him comfort, so I am grateful.

eta--I hope to see my husband before I die, and I don't care if it's an hallucination as long as I believe it.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 5, 2020)

The dead frequently appear to us in our dreams. So why not at the end of life, as well?  It doesn't mean they are really there; they are always present in our minds, and probably the stress of dying brings thoughts of them to the surface.

Also, some medications are known to bring vivid hallucinations of people who are long dead, standing at the foot of the bed watching over the person. It's actually sometimes listed as a side effect!


----------



## jujube (Dec 5, 2020)

When my mother was slipping in and out of a coma before thanksgiving, she was frequently holding conversations with my dad and my aunt, both of whom are long gone.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Dec 5, 2020)

I'm of the opinion that they are natural hallucinations caused by chemicals released in the brain that help us to eliminate the fear and pain associated with dying.  Something similar to the euphoria that runners experience or the shock that blocks the pain caused by serious accidents or injuries.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 5, 2020)

Years ago, doing volunteer work at a local Catholic hospital.  When patients were close to death, they often refused drugs.  One day I got "trapped" in a room with a woman who was dying.  The priest came in and some of her relatives.  She started whispering, naming off 
the dead relatives she was seeing and talking back to.

 She gasped, and with a surprised look in her eyes, said "Bertie, now what are you doing here?". Then she died. Well, you could have heard a pin drop in the room.  Her daughter said to the priest..."how could she know?", Gertie (her sister) had been killed in an auto accident shortly before  and they'd chosen not to upset her by telling her.

Don't tell me our loved ones don't meet us on the other side.  Have had too many experiences to to not realize that fact.


----------



## Gaer (Dec 5, 2020)

Yes, OF COURSE!  This is not a belief.  This is a KNOWLEDGE.
This will not be acknowledged by those of incomplete vision.
Don't care!  Like Liberty,  "Don't tell me".
I, like Liberty, have had WAY, WAY TOO experiences to not realize THAT FACT!


----------



## Della (Dec 5, 2020)

My father sure was counting on seeing my mother, I think it's the only thing that kept him from too much fear during his last days.  I have no trouble believing that you see those people if you really want to. In Heaven (or whatever you call it) there may not be much difference between real and imagined.


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 5, 2020)

*I truly believe you are greeted by loved ones after you die I also believe the dead can come to you in a dream. It has happened to me so I have no doubts.*


----------



## Pepper (Dec 5, 2020)

I, too, like Gaer & Liberty have had many experiences.  I don't accept them as proof, although they sure seem to be.  Put it this way, if it's Truth, it's Truth and that has nothing to do with my opinions. "Logic" -- although I'm no master of that -- tells me otherwise.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Dec 5, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I had this conversation with my son recently, who is an RN in the ER and ICU departments of two different hospitals.
> 
> He's seen several end-of-life experiences and has no explanation for it.
> 
> Dreams, visions or something else entirely? A topic I'm sure we won't all agree on, but interesting to discuss.


Eternal nothingness, that's what I believe awaits us all.


----------



## JustBonee (Dec 5, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I, too, like Gaer & Liberty have had many experiences.  I don't accept them as proof, although they sure seem to be.  Put it this way, if it's Truth, it's Truth and that has nothing to do with my opinions.



Without going into detail,   and having people tell me it can't be ...  I too cannot deny what I have experienced  ...    It was there,  it was real,   and absolutely no one can tell me otherwise.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Dec 5, 2020)

Do the dead greet the dying?  Of course, this can only occur if you believe in an afterlife. But belief in an afterlife, and proof of its existence are two different things.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 5, 2020)

I believe it's possible for people to experience these things. Only because I've had my own experiences with some similar stuff. I don't think you have to be dying to be visited by deceased friends or family.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Dec 5, 2020)

One thing that has always struck me as being odd about dreaming of lost loved ones, is even though many have been gone for a long time, in my dreams there is never any indication or thought that they have passed, it all seems so normal to see them alive in my dreams.


----------



## raybar (Dec 5, 2020)

As far as I know, there exists zero evidence of an "afterlife." None.  There are plenty of personal anecdotes, such as have been mentioned above, but nothing that can be examined or tested, nothing that can be verified or falsified. Just stories.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 5, 2020)

raybar said:


> As far as I know, there exists zero evidence of an "afterlife." None.  There are plenty of personal anecdotes, such as have been mentioned above, but nothing that can be examined or tested, nothing that can be verified or falsified. Just stories.


Don't think those that choose to be negative would ever believe in the higher dimensions. 
So be it.  Think there are 3rd dimensional and 4th dimensional people on the face of the earth now.  The 4th dimensional people do realize  and have experienced the subtle higher dimensions and are becoming more and more aware...the veil is becoming  thinner and thinner.


----------



## Mike (Dec 5, 2020)

When my mother was in the hospital on her deathbed and
I walked in, she really thought that I was my father who had
died about 10 years before.

I thought at the time that she was confused, but who knows,
perhaps the dead  do visit through somebody else and make
that person look like they do, at least to the one passing.

Mike.


----------



## moviequeen1 (Dec 5, 2020)

This happened to me the day my mom died
I heard her voice calling me,got out of bed walked in the living room knowing she wasn't there,she was in NH.  When my brother called,I asked what time she died,he said 2:30am. I heard her at 4.I know she was telling me everything would be ok  I swear on Bible it happened wasn't a dream


----------



## Pepper (Dec 5, 2020)

Absolutely believe you had that experience @moviequeen1


----------



## dobielvr (Dec 5, 2020)

I saw this many times w/my mother and father, who both died at home.  Here with me.

I was standing in my Dad's doorway, when all of a sudden he extended his hand out to me and called me 'Mama ______, our last name.  I stood there for a minute, then approached him in bed and took his hand and just held it in mine.

He saw his father and brother, weird stuff.

And, he wasn't on any medication


----------



## raybar (Dec 5, 2020)

I said " . . . there exists zero evidence of an "afterlife" . . . "
Liberty said "Don't think those that choose to be negative would ever believe in the higher dimensions." 



It's not negative to point out that there's no evidence for something, or to ask for evidence when claims are made. 

Even in daily life, with respect to trivial matters, I do not understand why anyone believes anything without evidence. If someone offers you an investment opportunity, don't you want all the details before you hand over your money? If someone said he's a spectacular gymnast, or a fabulous musician, wouldn't you want to see a little demonstration before before believing him? 

Yet here, talking about the very nature of reality - - is there an afterlife, do the dead visit the living, are there unseen dimensions - - people seem willing to base their most fundamental beliefs on nothing. Or perhaps they've forgotten the distinction between their hopes and their beliefs. 

I'm not choosing to be negative. I'm saying that such questions are unanswerable due to a lack of evidence.


----------



## Rosemarie (Dec 5, 2020)

I have three brothers, one of which was always the 'odd one out', completely different in looks and temperament from the rest of us. I never really thought much of it but, shortly after my father died, he 'spoke' to me and told me that after his death he had discovered that my mother had betrayed him with another man, and the 'odd' son wasn't actually his at all.
That is enough to convince me that it is only the body which dies.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 5, 2020)

I've heard stories of people on their deathbeds indicating that a dead relatives were there in the room with them or that they were calling out to them as if they were there. 
@raybar For a few years now, scientists have admitted that parallel universes are a real possibility. This article states evidence has been found by NASA scientists..
https://nypost.com/2020/05/19/nasa-...lel-universe-where-time-runs-backward-report/


----------



## Sunny (Dec 5, 2020)

Wishful thinking, folks.  Saying you saw them in a dream is one thing, but saying that you know for a fact that they have really come back to visit you because you personally experienced it is, well, pretty dubious.  Some dreams are very vivid, and feel absolutely real to us; our minds are good at playing tricks. Also, certain medications are known to have this effect at times. 

Of course, feel free to believe what you like. Way too woo-woo for me! Just don't get all superior about the number of dimensions you think you live in.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 5, 2020)

I am of the belief that it’s science’s job to prove something false, rather than my job to prove something true. Perhaps the things we can't prove [yet] are just undiscovered sciences. How much does the unborn baby know of the world in which it is about to enter? There are far too many things we do not understand, yet we consider ourselves wise.


----------



## raybar (Dec 5, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> For a few years now, scientists have admitted that parallel universes are a real possibility. This article states evidence has been found by NASA scientists..


Parallel universes may or may not exist. We don't know. But the New York Post article you linked, and the Daily Star article on which it is based, have misunderstood or misrepresented the studies they are reporting on. Here's the real story

Science Alert article: 
https://www.sciencealert.com/of-course-nasa-did-not-detect-a-parallel-universe-in-antarctica 

Live Science article: 
https://www.livescience.com/truth-behind-nasa-mirror-parallel-universe.html


----------



## Sunny (Dec 5, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I am of the belief that it’s science’s job to prove something false, rather than my job to prove something true. Perhaps the things we can't prove [yet] are just undiscovered sciences. How much does the unborn baby know of the world in which it is about to enter? There are far too many things we do not understand, yet we consider ourselves wise.


Well, that's a novel approach, to say the least.  The way I've always understood it, the burden of proof is always with the person who makes an assertion that something is true. The burden of non-proof doesn't rest with science.

So if I say I am really a unicorn, does that mean it has to be taken seriously, until some scientist proves that I am not a unicorn?  And if I say that my snake oil potion, that I am selling at a bargain price, has a 100% cure rate against covid-19, that has to be considered true until "science" proves that it's a hoax?  Should everybody buy and take the potion, because science hasn't gotten around to investigating it?

Leads to a pretty slippery slope, IMO.


----------



## hollydolly (Dec 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, that's a novel approach, to say the least.  The way I've always understood it, the burden of proof is always with the person who makes an assertion that something is true. The burden of non-proof doesn't rest with science.
> 
> So if I say I am really a unicorn, does that mean it has to be taken seriously, until some scientist proves that I am not a unicorn?  And if I say that my snake oil potion, that I am selling at a bargain price, has a 100% cure rate against covid-19, that has to be considered true until "science" proves that it's a hoax?  Should everybody buy and take the potion, because science hasn't gotten around to investigating it?
> 
> Leads to a pretty slippery slope, IMO.


Very good analogies...

However I still believe there's something that we know nothing of with regard to  the human spirit ..and having lived through several small but significant occurrences with regard to dead or dying, I have yet to be convinced that there's nothing after death, in the same way we believe there was nothing before life ...


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 5, 2020)

@Sunny Let's take your example of snake oil. If you take it and it doesn't work, it is proven false. Simple enough, but until so, who is too say if it works or not?

I really enjoy a slippery slope from time to time.

I just believe that we haven't found any unicorn bones yet., they are probably in the layer below dinosaurs as they were a prime food choice of the larger beasts.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 5, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, that's a novel approach, to say the least.  The way I've always understood it, the burden of proof is always with the person who makes an assertion that something is true. The burden of non-proof doesn't rest with science.
> 
> So if I say I am really a unicorn, does that mean it has to be taken seriously, until some scientist proves that I am not a unicorn?  And if I say that my snake oil potion, that I am selling at a bargain price, has a 100% cure rate against covid-19, that has to be considered true until "science" proves that it's a hoax?  Should everybody buy and take the potion, because science hasn't gotten around to investigating it?
> 
> Leads to a pretty slippery slope, IMO.


Sunny, does this mean you are really not a unicorn?  I'm disappointed . . . .


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 5, 2020)

Life is a wild and wonderful mystery trip, not everything fits in a pigeonhole.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 5, 2020)

Gosh I missed you all. My own fault. I'm back for now. [hugs]


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 5, 2020)

*Hugs Gardenlover*


----------



## terry123 (Dec 5, 2020)

I call it faith. I believe in an after life and know that I will be seeing my loved ones that have gone before me.  I don't need any "proof".  I just know it in my soul.


----------



## PopsnTuff (Dec 5, 2020)

When my Mom was in hospice, during the daytime wide awake and on no meds, she was looking at the upper wall and telling me she saw the most beautiful angels....she also saw her older deceased sister smiling at her with peace and comfort....I believed her....
there are so many true-to-life books and articles written by medical staff witnesses of near-death experiences of folks not on meds, and I don't believe they're hallucinating from the failing brain cells.....so yes, the dead do appear and speak to the dying, imo.....


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 6, 2020)

In the case of sudden deaths does the brain recognize the body is seconds from death? Then does it simply give up or does the brain scramble to remain alive because life is all it has known? I doze off a few times during the day and the split second I slip in to the state of sleep I start dreaming. Even if I doze off for only a few seconds I still dream. That tells me the part of the brain that dreams may be dreaming constantly but we only know it when we sleep. So like the dream mode, does the brain run like a motor to keep the body functioning constantly or does it even understand death?


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 6, 2020)

terry123 said:


> I call it faith. I believe in an after life and know that I will be seeing my loved ones that have gone before me.  I don't need any "proof".  I just know it in my soul.


It is faith and those like you simply have it. My very close friend is very deep in her faith. She talks about God and heaven like I talk about every day living. Her and I are very close and she accepts my beliefs as I accept hers. I can never accept the planet supports human life as a freak accident. I deeply believe this is a result of something but I cannot accept religion as the answer but I never say I am right. Like most folks I want to know the absolute answer but I know I never will so I just live and let live because that is the best answer I can come up with.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Gosh I missed you all. My own fault. I'm back for now. [hugs]


Missed you too.


----------



## doat (Dec 6, 2020)

Tuff question with no answer. I can only tell you that in my life time I have seen things that I can’t explain, and I don’t mean UFO’s or hallucinations.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 6, 2020)

raybar said:


> Parallel universes may or may not exist. We don't know. But the New York Post article you linked, and the Daily Star article on which it is based, have misunderstood or misrepresented the studies they are reporting on. Here's the real story
> 
> Science Alert article:
> https://www.sciencealert.com/of-course-nasa-did-not-detect-a-parallel-universe-in-antarctica
> ...


Interesting, clarifying articles Raybar..thank you for sharing. I did read another article a couple of years ago from a science publication but I would have no idea how to find it now or if it would fit into the category of misrepresenting the truth.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 6, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I am of the belief that it’s science’s job to prove something false, rather than my job to prove something true. Perhaps the things we can't prove [yet] are just undiscovered sciences. How much does the unborn baby know of the world in which it is about to enter? There are far too many things we do not understand, yet we consider ourselves wise.


I agree GL.  Imagine what was considered impossible 200 years ago or even 100 years ago that have been created and we are doing now.


----------



## win231 (Dec 6, 2020)

I don't know if the dead greet the dying, but I was reminded of a sign on the wall at one place I worked:

_"People who don't believe the dead can come back to life should be here at quitting time."_


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 6, 2020)

What makes me a true believer that you can have contact with someone who has passed is because what happened to me a few months after my Dad passed away. When he was on his deathbed my niece was screaming "God if you let my Grandpop live I will never ask for a baby again." I pulled her off my Dad and said "Poppy would never want you to give up hope for a baby." 

Well, a few months later my Dad came to me in a dream. He told me to tell my niece a nice little boy was coming her way. He said tell her I said 313. In the dream, my Dad was visiting my cousin who was in the hospital. My Dad said to me "Don't worry because I am here with Jimmy." He said Jimmy was going to be alright.

A few months later my nephew was in a store he went to every day. He asked why a woman that worked there wasn't working that day. They told him the woman was expecting a baby and had to give the baby up for adoption. He said, "Oh my sister will adopt the baby." After he said it he was shocked because his sister never mentioned adoption. When they told the woman she said she would let my niece adopt the baby. Then my Husband got my niece a lawyer and when the baby was born it was a boy.

Strangely the adoption took place on my cousin Jimmy's birthday, the courtroom was 313 and the lawyer couldn't make it so he sent his partner to be at the adoption. It was strange because the lawyer's brother was the Priest that said my Dad's funeral mass. Since that day I have always believed we could be visited by our loved ones after they've passed.


----------



## PopsnTuff (Dec 6, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> What makes me a true believer that you can have contact with someone who has passed is because what happened to me a few months after my Dad passed away. When he was on his deathbed my niece was screaming "God if you let my Grandpop live I will never ask for a baby again." I pulled her off my Dad and said "Poppy would never want you to give up hope for a baby."
> 
> Well, a few months later my Dad came to me in a dream. He told me to tell my niece a nice little boy was coming her way. He said tell her I said 313. In the dream, my Dad was visiting my cousin who was in the hospital. My Dad said to me "Don't worry because I am here with Jimmy." He said Jimmy was going to be alright.
> 
> ...


This all happened @Sassycakes cuz everything in the universe is connected by energy, whether in physical form or spiritual form.


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 6, 2020)

*I had some interesting conversations with my husband in the days before he died.  I am not sure he "saw" dead family members, but he talked often of a close friend who died several years ago, and mentioned dreaming of her.
A slight, OT, I think he suspected he would not survive as he often told a couple friends to look after me.  And in a last conversation with a nurse he told her to thank everyone for all the care he was receiving at the nursing home.
He also, in the last day or two spoke of having had a dream that the world was coming to an end...the population was dying out*


----------



## Phoenix (Dec 6, 2020)

I believe they do.  I could give my reasoning, but if a person believes in it they do, and if they don't they don't.


----------



## Ruth n Jersey (Dec 6, 2020)

I certainly hope there is an afterlife and that my mom and dad will be there to greet me. Working years in a nursing home I saw many people die and sadly I didn't see any indication that they were greeted by loved ones. 
That doesn't stop me from hoping though. Many times I have such vivid dreams of them and when they call my name it's so real that I wake up and answer them. 
My mom would tell me that my grandma had vivid dreams of her loved ones during the last years of her life. Could it be that they are preparing the way? I hope so.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 6, 2020)

Every once in a while - I smell my dad's pipe.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 6, 2020)

Sometimes when I'm really depressed I feel my grandmother's presence sit on the bed and I smell her Rose Milk hand lotion.


----------



## PopsnTuff (Dec 6, 2020)

I have experienced the same with a passing breeze of a sweet scent .....my Mom's perfume and I don't wear it or have any in my home....


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 6, 2020)

My grandmothers lotion isn't just a passing scent. It stays as long as she does and it's the only thing I can smell no matter where I am. Even in a vehicle with all the windows open going down the highway at 55 mph.


----------



## Phoenix (Dec 6, 2020)

Ruth n Jersey said:


> I certainly hope there is an afterlife and that my mom and dad will be there to greet me. Working years in a nursing home I saw many people die and sadly I didn't see any indication that they were greeted by loved ones.
> That doesn't stop me from hoping though. Many times I have such vivid dreams of them and when they call my name it's so real that I wake up and answer them.
> My mom would tell me that my grandma had vivid dreams of her loved ones during the last years of her life. Could it be that they are preparing the way? I hope so.


My mom died in a nursing home at age 91.  She was very infirm and unconsious for the last few days.  On the day she died I was seated beside her.  She was in an easy chair that had been reclined back.  She could breathe easier that way.  She had no muscle tone.  All at once she bolted straight up and with eyes wide open she stared up the at ceiling.  She held that position for at least a very long minute.  I told her, "Go with them Momma, your parents and loved ones have come to take you home."  She crumpled back into the chair and her breathing stopped.  She was pronounced dead.

My 3-year-old grand aunt Lila was standing next to the fireplace.  Her night gown caught on fire.  My other young aunts rolled her over and put out the fire, but she was too badly burned.  With her last breaths Lila said, "She's beautiful."  One of her siblings said, "Who is?" Lila said, "The Angel."  In that moment she died.


----------



## Repondering (Dec 6, 2020)

I have no doubts whatever that we're greeted into the next world by people with whom we've been particularly close in this life.
There are too many NDE reports to discount and besides, two years ago my own mother told me the day before she died that her brother was in the room reassuring her that there was nothing to fear.  He's been gone more than forty years.


----------



## Kadee (Dec 6, 2020)

3  children and a cousin of the children were killed in February while they were simply walking to the shop to buy an ice cream.

They were hit and killed by a a drunk speeding driver .  https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...d/news-story/d59ba28b01dcdb878a9b225ee3b75276

During the interviews with the parents the mother spoke about when she looked at one of her daughters in her coffin  ,that tears rolled down the  cheeks of the deceased girl ,the mum alerted the funeral directors who said they’d never seen it happen before .

it’s a very sad case the family  had 6 loving talented children  3 of whom + plus their cousin ....who were taken away in an instant by someone who shouldn’t have been behind the wheel of a car doing 100 km hour in a 50 km area high on drugs and 3 times over the limit of Alcohol in his system


----------



## Sunny (Dec 6, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Sunny, does this mean you are really not a unicorn?  I'm disappointed . . . .









Well, Butterfly, I really don't like to show off, but since you insist, here's a favorite photo of myself.


----------



## Judycat (Dec 6, 2020)

I had to explain to my husband he was dead in a dream. He wanted to know why I couldn't stay with him. I saw him briefly while waking up a day after he died. He looked really good.


----------



## chic (Dec 7, 2020)

I don't know but it would be nice. I hope it happens for me because I've been scared to death of dying since I was little and first learned I was going to die. I've never really forgiven my parents for having me.


----------



## JustBonee (Dec 7, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I had this conversation with my son recently, who is an RN in the ER and ICU departments of two different hospitals.
> 
> He's seen several end-of-life experiences and has no explanation for it.
> 
> Dreams, visions or something else entirely? A topic I'm sure we won't all agree on, but interesting to discuss.



I personally feel many people seem to have an awareness of another dimension that others cannot feel or experience.  It just is there in our being for some of us,  and I'm thankful for that.   It very much brings peace  and comfort in life,  especially as we get older.  
There isn't much else to say about it.  

And because many people can't experience what others do,   they brush it off as nonsense.  And  it will have to stay that way.


----------



## win231 (Dec 7, 2020)

I was with my mom when she died.  My dad died 5 years earlier.
If he did greet her, I'm sure he'd said, _"Just stay the hell away from me.  After putting up with you for 50 years, I deserve to rest in peace."_
One other phenomenon:  We visited him in that private room to put some Gardenias in the casket next to him.  I could swear he had a slight smile on his face.  I told my sister: "He's smiling because he's finally rid of her."


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 8, 2020)

I've mentioned this in a previous post.  I saw a "man" floating in my hallway. He watched me as I was primping in the mirror. He didn't look transparent as I expected a "ghost" would. I watched him in the mirror for about 45 seconds to a minute then he seemed to just float sideways into our studio room. Tanned complexion, blue, black and white plaid shirt, salt and pepper hair. I didn't recognize him and surprisingly I wasn't frightened.

A skeptical ex boyfriend called me one day very frightened. He used to ridicule people who believed in "duppies" (he was Jamaican...their term for ghosts). He said he had gone into his daughter's room one night and saw an old lady sitting on the foot of her bed. She was only a toddler and this scared him to death. I told him what I thought he should do and he never called back to say he saw the entity again.

I was on the phone with a friend who was in her driveway doing something to her vehicle. All of a sudden she said "Oh sh*t!!" I asked what's the matter and she said she just saw Tophat going into her door.  To get into her house someone would have to pass her (tight squeeze) and go up a flight of outside steps. But Tophat was a ghost who had been seen several times in various areas of her property. First by her (then) young son who was afraid to go in the basement because of it.  She thought he was just trying to get out of doing stuff down there.  Then years later someone was working on her basement to create a possible living space and he saw Tophat (so named because each person described him as wearing a top hat). She certainly hadn't told him that the basement was haunted. She had seen Tophat before that day in her driveway but was still afraid to go into the house. I told her to go in and say "Que pasa amigo...what do you want?".  She laughed and made me stay on the phone while she went in.  I told her that if he wanted to harm her (them) he would have done it by now.  She didn't see him when she went in.


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 9, 2020)

If there is an after life I hope it is in no way connected to life on Earth. We hear stories of "spirits" and ghosts, etc. and to me that would be Hell itself. Is the afterlife so cruel that one's spirit or whatever can be locked in to a location here on Earth forever? I believe poltergeist episodes are no more than an energy we don't understand much like dark energy in the universe. I claim to know nothing about what happens after death and never will and I am thankful for that. I hope I just fade away.


----------



## IrisSenior (Dec 9, 2020)

There are many things that happen that we can't explain and someday (maybe) we will be able to. Like what Popsn Tuff says - everything is  connected to the energy of the universe.  I too, have seen things I cannot explain and believe that when I die I will have the answer.


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 9, 2020)

I hope they do!  Both my Mom and Dad looked so happy and peaceful when they took their last breaths, as did most of the dying people I was with while in the medical field. No one has any proof, just a lot of theories, as to what they are seeing at the end. Someday we will find out for ourselves I guess. I’ll try and post one last message on here from beyond, if I can, and let you all know . But for now, I want to believe it.   When I was like 18 or 19 my Dad and I were talking. I asked him “what if we are living our life all good and wonderful like so we can get to heaven and at the end find out there is no God?”  He looked at me and said, “would you live your life any differently knowing that ahead of time?”  Had to actually think about that for awhile. Would I?  I hope not.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 9, 2020)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> I hope they do!  Both my Mom and Dad looked so happy and peaceful when they took their last breaths, as did most of the dying people I was with while in the medical field. No one has any proof, just a lot of theories, as to what they are seeing at the end. Someday we will find out for ourselves I guess. I’ll try and post one last message on here from beyond, if I can, and let you all know . But for now, I want to believe it.   When I was like 18 or 19 my Dad and I were talking. I asked him “what if we are living our life all good and wonderful like so we can get to heaven and at the end find out there is no God?”  He looked at me and said, “would you live your life any differently knowing that ahead of time?”  Had to actually think about that for awhile. Would I?  I hope not.


I would rather live my life for God not knowing than go about my life as I see fit and end up in hell. I will take my chances on God.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 9, 2020)

Judycat said:


> I had to explain to my husband he was dead in a dream. He wanted to know why I couldn't stay with him. I saw him briefly while waking up a day after he died. He looked really good.



Wasn't that a line in Fiddler on the Roof, when Tevya is telling Golde that ridiculous made-up story about his "dream?"

"Everybody we know was there, including your Grandma Tzeitl.  She looked pretty good for someone who's been dead 50 years."


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 9, 2020)

*This reminded me of when my grandson was 4yrs old. He said 2 men with the same name , one was short and one was tall would walk around his house all day. He said one wore cowboy boots and the other had a deck of cards in his hands. It was strange because my Dad's name and my sister's husband were named Frank. My Dad played cards all the time and my sister's husband always wore cowboy boots. My grandson never saw them when they were alive. They had passed away 5yrs before he was born. He also said a little girl named Colleen was always flying around the house. We found out later that a little girl named Colleen had died in a fire many years before in the house where he was living.*


----------



## Liberty (Dec 9, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> I personally feel many people seem to have an awareness of another dimension that others cannot feel or experience.  It just is there in our being for some of us,  and I'm thankful for that.   It very much brings peace  and comfort in life,  especially as we get older.
> There isn't much else to say about it.
> 
> And because many people can't experience what others do,   they brush it off as nonsense.  And  it will have to stay that way.


That's the difference  between third and forth dimensional souls that are incarnated at this time.  The forth dimension ones know of and can partake from time to time of the higher dimension.  The veil is getting thinner.  Think there will be a big graduation party!


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 9, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *This reminded me of when my grandson was 4yrs old. He said 2 men with the same name , one was short and one was tall would walk around his house all day. He said one wore cowboy boots and the other had a deck of cards in his hands. It was strange because my Dad's name and my sister's husband were named Frank. My Dad played cards all the time and my sister's husband always wore cowboy boots. My grandson never saw them when they were alive. They had passed away 5yrs before he was born. He also said a little girl named Colleen was always flying around the house. We found out later that a little girl named Colleen had died in a fire many years before in the house where he was living.*


Ooooooh!  I love hearing stories like this!  Makes me more of a believer


----------



## Liberty (Dec 9, 2020)

Sassycakes said:


> *This reminded me of when my grandson was 4yrs old. He said 2 men with the same name , one was short and one was tall would walk around his house all day. He said one wore cowboy boots and the other had a deck of cards in his hands. It was strange because my Dad's name and my sister's husband were named Frank. My Dad played cards all the time and my sister's husband always wore cowboy boots. My grandson never saw them when they were alive. They had passed away 5yrs before he was born. He also said a little girl named Colleen was always flying around the house. We found out later that a little girl named Colleen had died in a fire many years before in the house where he was living.*


So reminds me of several years ago, a good friend's husband was dying - in hospice at their home in Florida.  She would call me and say "Stan has a question he wants to ask you"...I'd say fine and then he would ask "why am I still here."  He was ready to go and would fall asleep, wake up and still be there.  I told him it was because his physical body, mind and soul needed to be aligned.  That was happening. He had said goodbye to the grandkids and other friends so I guessed it wouldn't be long.

Later on that week I think.. had a dream vision where I saw an Indian woman (knew instantly it had been Stan's mother in a previous lifetime, a little girl in a pink dress dancing around and a heavy set man with a yamaka on (my friend and Stan were Jewish.)

I called my friend and told her "think it will be within 3 days because "The Gathering" is there...then explained what I saw and that I had no idea who this hodge podge of people were, but did feel I knew why they were there.

He passed peacefully a couple days later.  She called and thanked me, saying the heavy set man in the yamaka she thinks was Stan's uncle.  She thought and thought about the little girl in the pink dress and suddenly remembered that where they lived now there had been a little girl like that...and that Stan had made friends with her. The girl had died.  

Of course the Indian woman in buckskin still would remain a mystery.  Think we do need some mysteries in our lives to help us increase faith.


----------



## Knight (Dec 9, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Don't tell me our loved ones don't meet us on the other side.  Have had too many experiences to to not realize that fact.


Mankind has been dying for centuries IMO there would billions dead relatives. Out of those billions, how do dead people find dead relatives?


----------



## Phoenix (Dec 9, 2020)

People have so many beliefs about all this.  Some of which are represented here.  Bottom line we go with what seems right to us individually.  


Knight said:


> Mankind has been dying for centuries IMO there would billions dead relatives. Out of those billions, how do dead people find dead relatives?


A cosmic quantum computer - at least that's how it is in the novel I'm writing.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 9, 2020)

Knight said:


> Mankind has been dying for centuries IMO there would billions dead relatives. Out of those billions, how do dead people find dead relatives?


Don't assume the other side is like this mundane 3 dimensional  plane.  It is a higher dimension.  So to try to compare who and what we are now with the same limited logic is a major understanding flaw.  We are souls that have bodies, not bodies that have souls.  Call it a work in progress...lol.


----------



## Knight (Dec 9, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Don't assume the other side is like this mundane 3 dimensional  plane.  It is a higher dimension.  So to try to compare who and what we are now with the same limited logic is a major understanding flaw.  We are souls that have bodies, not bodies that have souls.  Call it a work in progress...lol.


OK lets go with your explanation of  we are souls that have bodies

How do those billions of souls rejoin the souls of their families?

Another question. Do those souls feel anything like happiness or sadness. Particularly sadness if they find out a family member soul wasn't with the rest of the family?


----------



## raybar (Dec 9, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Don't assume the other side is like this mundane 3 dimensional  plane.  It is a higher dimension.


Please define "planes" and "higher dimensions." I know what planes and dimensions are in mathematics. But what do you mean in this context, and what evidence can you offer to support your beliefs?

I have been asking questions like this for decades, but have yet to hear any coherent answers.  It seems to me that if people can't even define their terms, then they don't know what they're talking about.  I am not, as was suggested above, brushing it all off as nonsense. However, i have great difficulty taking something seriously when people can't explain it or and have no answers to obvious questions.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 9, 2020)

Knight said:


> OK lets go with your explanation of  we are souls that have bodies
> 
> How do those billions of souls rejoin the souls of their families?
> 
> Another question. Do those souls feel anything like happiness or sadness. Particularly sadness if they find out a family member soul wasn't with the rest of the family?


Here you go again...thinking like gosh he had 3 wives here  so who is his wife in heaven...lol.  Think of it as we are  corpuscles in the body of God.  This temporary world is a gross dense matter world.  Souls don't die, you can't kill a soul...when we arrive each time back on the other side, that world is the real world. Souls do travel in groups, but in the higher dimensions you can be on several levels at a time.  

We don't even know what happens to us in 1/3 of our earthly lives...the time we sleep and dream, let alone trying to answer these higher dimensional areas of awareness while in the limited  5 sense arena here in the earthly shell. From what I've seen, its like old home week when we pass back over...one more time around the sun.  Its like going from an old black & white little TV box to a gigantic HDTV color screen.  The great adventure begins yet once again.


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 9, 2020)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> Ooooooh!  I love hearing stories like this!  Makes me more of a believer


That is also one of the reasons I believe ! my grandson was only 4yrs old and had never met either man. The little girl he saw was never even mentioned to his parents by any of the neighbors.


----------



## Knight (Dec 9, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Here you go again...thinking like gosh he had 3 wives here  so who is his wife in heaven...lol.  Think of it as we are  corpuscles in the body of God.  This temporary world is a gross dense matter world.  Souls don't die, you can't kill a soul...when we arrive each time back on the other side, that world is the real world. Souls do travel in groups, but in the higher dimensions you can be on several levels at a time.
> 
> We don't even know what happens to us in 1/3 of our earthly lives...the time we sleep and dream, let alone trying to answer these higher dimensional areas of awareness while in the limited  5 sense arena here in the earthly shell. From what I've seen, its like old home week when we pass back over...one more time around the sun.  Its like going from an old black & white little TV box to a gigantic HDTV color screen.  The great adventure begins yet once again.


Geeze I thought those two questions would be easy to answer. Guess not. 

There is a saying I learned in the Navy

When you don't know the answer Baffle them with BS.  

An example
 Its like going from an old black & white little TV box to a gigantic HDTV color screen.  The great adventure begins yet once again.

I admit I'm baffled by that


----------



## Phoenix (Dec 9, 2020)

Or none of the above is correct.


----------



## Elsie (Dec 9, 2020)

raybar said:


> I said " . . . there exists zero evidence of an "afterlife" . . . "
> Liberty said "Don't think those that choose to be negative would ever believe in the higher dimensions."
> 
> 
> ...


I said " . . . there exists zero evidence of an "afterlife" . . . "
Liberty said "Don't think those that choose to be negative would ever believe in the higher dimensions."
“…Even in daily life, with respect to trivial matters, I do not understand why anyone believes anything without evidence………If someone offers you an investment opportunity, don't you want all the details before you hand over your money? … What if there is a missed detrimental detail?........../”If someone said he's a spectacular gymnast, or a fabulous musician, wouldn't you want to see a little demonstration/evidence before believing him?”...........Perhaps the “evidence” could not be sustained?

“…Talking about the very nature of reality - - is there an afterlife, do the dead visit the living, are there unseen dimensions - - ……”Are there? Where’s the proof there are not?” “..People seem willing to base their most fundamental beliefs on nothing” “Can you prove their beliefs are based on nothing? Or the other way around? As fallible fact finding humans, how can we be sure our “evidence” is infallible? I read an article years ago about experiences witnessed in how they saw people who have faith in God of the Bible die unafraid, where non-believers died protesting in fear.


----------



## Phoenix (Dec 9, 2020)

Therer is no way to "prove" reality.   I don't believe in the Bible.  That does not mean I will die in fear.  My mom believed in it and she died afraid.


----------



## Elsie (Dec 9, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Therer is no way to "prove" reality.   I don't believe in the Bible.  That does not mean I will die in fear.  My mom believed in it and she died afraid.


I'm so sorry she died in fear.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> Geeze I thought those two questions would be easy to answer. Guess not.
> 
> There is a saying I learned in the Navy
> 
> ...


Well when you choose to not try to understand its easy to say its BS.  Ask yourself the question how would this creature, temporarily encased in the gravity ruled 3rd rock from the sun, be capable of understanding and easily explaining to another creature what it will be like when you take off out of your earthly body at the transition called death.  Very easy, right?


----------



## Sunny (Dec 10, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Well when you choose to not try to understand its easy to say its BS.  Ask yourself the question how would this creature, temporarily encased in the gravity ruled 3rd rock from the sun, be capable of understanding and easily explaining to another creature what it will be like when you take off out of your earthly body at the transition called death.  Very easy, right?


 Believing in reality rather than fantasy is not the same thing as choosing to not try to understand. Probably every thinking human being has tried to understand or imagine; the difference is that what some of us call imaginative fiction, others claim as truth. All of these statements about spirits, dimensions, the other side, "taking off from earthly bodies," etc. are just pure conjecture. No one has been there and returned to tell us about it, and no one has any proof.  And most likely, thus it will ever be.

The fact is, no one really likes the idea that it will all end for us at the moment of death. We'd all like to see our loved ones again, and we'd like to keep some consciousness, somehow, somewhere. But all these flights of fancy are just extensions of that desire to not have it end. 

My own belief:  Remember what it was like before you were born?  Of course not.  That's probably what it will be like after you die. Consciousness is a product of the human brain. It's not floating around somewhere out there in spirit-land.

Yes, I'm encased in the "gravity ruled 3rd rock from the sun," otherwise known as reality.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Believing in reality rather than fantasy is not the same thing as choosing to not try to understand. Probably every thinking human being has tried to understand or imagine; the difference is that what some of us call imaginative fiction, others claim as truth. All of these statements about spirits, dimensions, the other side, "taking off from earthly bodies," etc. are just pure conjecture. No one has been there and returned to tell us about it, and no one has any proof.  And most likely, thus it will ever be.
> 
> The fact is, no one really likes the idea that it will all end for us at the moment of death. We'd all like to see our loved ones again, and we'd like to keep some consciousness, somehow, somewhere. But all these flights of fancy are just extensions of that desire to not have it end.
> 
> ...


That's understandable...hey you can't remember what you did as a child or even a few years ago...especially what it "felt like" to do it.  Until you've been outside your body...had an NDE or something you probably won't be able to understand much about the fourth dimensional world.  Its "natural" that you wouldn't.  Many books have been written from die hard 3rd dimensional people that suddenly were thrust into that "next" transitional world with an auto accident or operation or some other life threatening experience.

They have proven to be able to see things in other rooms and floors of the hospital for instance, or what went on in the OR or accident scene while they were supposedly "dead" .  No way could that have been possible if they were in their bodies.

But with that said, everyone has their own free will and can see things from their own focus.  That's what its all about. We call reality what we are aware of in the 5 sense world, not what might totally exist.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 10, 2020)

More true ghost stories:  There were three of us in my office who were psychic (really, we've proven ourselves). One day J, who was one of them, was standing by my interview room just chatting. Suddenly she seemed startled and said "Did you SEE that?!" Before I could ask what she saw...our regional manager called her into her office. I thought the pizza guy who passed behind her had startled her. When she got back I asked her what she had seen. She said a tall white man in a white robe was suddenly standing next to her (out of my line of vision). She indicated that he was "my spirit". I asked her how did she know he wasn't there for her. She said she knows her spirits.  What's interesting about this is I had just gotten back from South Carolina where I was trying to find out more about my maternal grandfather. I was told he was tall and looked like a White man.

My DIL's little cousin talked to her parents about her friend (that no one else had seen). She was just a toddler so naturally they assumed she had an imaginary friend. One day she went to her parents and told them something her friend, saying his name, had told her.  Her father started crying.  Since this was over a decade ago, I don't remember what she told them but it was something that his best friend with the name she mentioned who had died before she was born always used to say. They had never talked about him in front of this child. From then on they felt that his best friend was looking out for their daughter.

@Gardenlover  I'm into paranormal stuff but my son isn't. One day he was in our music studio working. He came out and told me he smelled his grandfather's pipe.  No one has ever smoked in this apartment, the windows were not open and my father had been dead for at least 20 years before that happened.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Forgot the quote again... I must be getting old.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Believing in reality rather than fantasy is not the same thing as choosing to not try to understand. Probably every thinking human being has tried to understand or imagine; the difference is that what some of us call imaginative fiction, others claim as truth. All of these statements about spirits, dimensions, the other side, "taking off from earthly bodies," etc. are just pure conjecture. No one has been there and returned to tell us about it, and no one has any proof.  And most likely, thus it will ever be.
> 
> The fact is, no one really likes the idea that it will all end for us at the moment of death. We'd all like to see our loved ones again, and we'd like to keep some consciousness, somehow, somewhere. But all these flights of fancy are just extensions of that desire to not have it end.
> 
> ...


I like to think there's more to life than just being a disposal battery. Here full of energy today and thrown out in the trash tomorrow.

If this is the case, nothing could keep me from living the most narcissistic life possible.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 10, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> More true ghost stories:  There were three of us in my office who were psychic (really, we've proved ourselves). One day J, who was one of them, was standing by my interview room just chatting. Suddenly she seems startled and said "Did you SEE that?!" Before I could ask what she saw...our regional manager called her into her office. I thought the pizza guy who passed behind her had startled her. When she got back I asked her what she had seen. She said a tall white man in a white robe was suddenly standing next to her (out of my line of vision). She indicated that he was "my spirit". I asked her how she didn't know he wasn't there for her. She said she knows her spirits.  What's interesting about this is I had just gotten back from South Carolina where I was trying to find out more about my maternal grandfather. I was told he was tall and looked like a White man.
> 
> My DIL's little cousin talked to her parents about her friend (that no one else had seen). She was just a toddler so naturally they assumed she had an imaginary friend. One day she went to her parents and told them something her friend, saying his name, had told her.  Her father started crying.  Since this was over a decade ago, I don't remember what she told them but it was something that his best friend with the name she mentioned who had died before she was born always used to say. They had never talked about him in front of this child. From then on they felt that his best friend was looking out for their daughter.
> 
> @Gardenlover  I'm into paranormal stuff but my son isn't. One day he was in our music studio working. He came out and told me he smelled his grandfather's pipe.  No one has ever smoked in this apartment, the windows were not open and my father had been dead for at least 20 years before that happened.


Absolutey.  Wonderful example of the little children being open enough to "see" and "feel" - realize the higher dimensional input down here in the physical.   Betting both the best friend and Gardenlover's dad were checking up on their loved ones!


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 10, 2020)

I love how non-Christian's always refer to believing in God and his word to be a fantasy or a fairytale. If you are wrong you are gonna be in a world of hurt.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Can proof be relative? Say, I die and after 15 minutes I am brought back to life and share an amazing story of the other side.
1) I wasn't really dead as they could revive me - it was just a wild dream.
2) I died and encountered the other side, but the story cannot be scientifically proven so it isn't believed.

There's hope in believing there's more, which makes me happier. Otherwise, every second of the day I wasted would torment me.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

delete


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 10, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Absolutey.  Wonderful example of the little children being open enough to "see" and "feel" - realize the higher dimensional input down here in the physical.   Betting both the best friend and Gardenlover's dad were checking up on their loved ones!


When I took an 8 week metaphysical course in 1988, the instructor mentioned that children are better receptors for paranormal experiences. That is until adults start telling them they are being silly, just imagining things or otherwise discouraging their gifts. Their unspoiled innocence and openness is key.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I love how non-Christian's always refer to believing in God and his word to be a fantasy or a fairytale. If you are wrong you are gonna be in a world of hurt.


So, Marci, you think only Christians believe in God?  

It is true that atheists don't believe in God, or at least not the traditional version of God. But do you really think that all non-Christians are atheists?  Boy, have you got a lot to learn! (Ever hear of the Jews or the Muslims, for instance?)

And if your second sentence is what you really believe, what a sad, narrow, mean-spirited philosophy that is. Anyone who doesn't believe in your religion is in for a world of hurt?  You sound like the Puritans of 400 years ago.

Anyway, how did this become a discussion about belief in God and "his word?" I thought we were talking about the dead communicating with the dying, and paranormal experiences.  Amazing how you stuck God into the middle of this discussion! 

I don't have statistics on this, but I very much doubt that most Christians really believe in all this paranormal nonsense. That is not part of the Christian religion, except for maybe the fringe groups.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 10, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> I like to think there's more to life than just being a disposal battery. Here full of energy today and thrown out in the trash tomorrow.
> 
> If this is the case, nothing could keep me from living the most narcissistic life possible.



Certainly there's more to life. There are non-theistic religions, such as ethical humanism, Unitarianism, and many others, which believe we show our goodness by caring for the planet, fighting for human rights, respecting other people's freedom to believe what is true for them, rejoicing in the beauty of this earth, trying to make life better for the people around us, and so on.

Isn't that enough reason to continue living according to our own ethical values, without needing a "big reward" if we are good boys and girls, and a terrible punishment if we are not?  I believe that living a decent life, full of love, humor, friendship, helping those in need, and not trashing the planet, is its own reward. I don't need pie in the sky.

But again, what does all this have to do with whether spirits are roaming the earth, communicating with the living?


----------



## Knight (Dec 10, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Well when you choose to not try to understand its easy to say its BS.  Ask yourself the question how would this creature, temporarily encased in the gravity ruled 3rd rock from the sun, be capable of understanding and easily explaining to another creature what it will be like when you take off out of your earthly body at the transition called death.  Very easy, right?


I asked myself and got this answer. 

When you die that's it. There is no sprit in the sky billions of years old checking off a naughty or nice list. I'd also explain that master spirit isn't surrounded by other helpful spirits & the spirits of billions that lived a life worthy of going to the sky. 

Thinking that people meet their relatives would mean that spirit was sentient. So I ask again how do billions of spirits manage to find their loved ones.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> I asked myself and got this answer.
> 
> When you die that's it. There is no sprit in the sky billions of years old checking off a naughty or nice list. I'd also explain that master spirit isn't surrounded by other helpful spirits & the spirits of billions that lived a life worthy of going to the sky.
> 
> Thinking that people meet their relatives would mean that spirit was sentient. So I ask again how do billions of spirits manage to find their loved ones.


1. How do you find someone you've lost contact with among the living? _(Maybe the spirit realm has a bigger phone book.)_

2. Now an easy question for you. You say there are no spirits in the sky. Why would you debate if a spirit is sentient or not, if it doesn't exist?

3. Another simple question if I may; how do you know there isn't a spiritual realm? Your logic is no different than those with opposing views.

4. Typically neither side convinces the other to change their opinion. Which brings up yet another question that should be able to be easily answered. Why do we want everyone to think the same way we do?


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Certainly there's more to life. There are non-theistic religions, such as ethical humanism, Unitarianism, and many others, which believe we show our goodness by caring for the planet, fighting for human rights, respecting other people's freedom to believe what is true for them, rejoicing in the beauty of this earth, trying to make life better for the people around us, and so on.
> 
> Isn't that enough reason to continue living according to our own ethical values, without needing a "big reward" if we are good boys and girls, and a terrible punishment if we are not?  I believe that living a decent life, full of love, humor, friendship, helping those in need, and not trashing the planet, is its own reward. I don't need pie in the sky.
> 
> But again, what does all this have to do with whether spirits are roaming the earth, communicating with the living?


I agree those discussions are a slightly different can of worms, but belong on the same shelf.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> I asked myself and got this answer.
> 
> When you die that's it. There is no sprit in the sky billions of years old checking off a naughty or nice list. I'd also explain that master spirit isn't surrounded by other helpful spirits & the spirits of billions that lived a life worthy of going to the sky.
> 
> Thinking that people meet their relatives would mean that spirit was sentient. So I ask again how do billions of spirits manage to find their loved ones.



Can we bring our cell phones with us?  If so, maybe there's a special GPS app?


----------



## Liberty (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> I asked myself and got this answer.
> 
> When you die that's it. There is no sprit in the sky billions of years old checking off a naughty or nice list. I'd also explain that master spirit isn't surrounded by other helpful spirits & the spirits of billions that lived a life worthy of going to the sky.
> 
> Thinking that people meet their relatives would mean that spirit was sentient. So I ask again how do billions of spirits manage to find their loved ones.


If that's what you think..."as a man thinketh so is he.  If a spirit is a spirit, surely the vibratory level of their "loved" ones would be palpable to them. In the "spirit of love" one ould  would think that is elementary.


----------



## Knight (Dec 10, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Can we bring our cell phones with us?  If so, maybe there's a special GPS app?


No!  There are no cell towers wherever God lives. I know this because I have blind faith that I'm right. 

I've just learned that sentient spirits [souls] can sense their relations. I wonder if that works for the loved ones that didn't make the cut to get into where ever God lives. 

You do know God isn't part of our universe, he & his helpers have to live somewhere else. 

My logic 
I can't claim making a box if I'm inside the box. God can't claim making the heaven & earth if it was already here.


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 10, 2020)

Judycat said:


> I had to explain to my husband he was dead in a dream. He wanted to know why I couldn't stay with him. I saw him briefly while waking up a day after he died. He looked really good.


*Interesting you mention this. My hubby has been dead for about a year and a half, now. The other night I dreamt of him. He asked why I had moved, where was his car, etc, etc.  I explained that I was moving on, now, because he had died and I could not keep his car, or stay in our house.  It took him a while to comprehend, and I am not sure if he did..but I remember him asking me if it meant he did not have to go into work the next day.  LOL*


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> No!  There are no cell towers wherever God lives. I know this because I have blind faith that I'm right.
> 
> I've just learned that sentient spirits [souls] can sense their relations. I wonder if that works for the loved ones that didn't make the cut to get into where ever God lives.
> 
> ...


How come you didn't answer my simple questions?


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 10, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> How come you didn't answer my simple questions?




Pard, if you want it from the bible;

the dead know nothing
Ecclesiastes 9:5

As for meeting again;

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

As for me, after living in the mountains for the last five years, and witnessing the glories of creation....
I'm rather stoked about it all


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 11, 2020)

Knight said:


> I asked myself and got this answer.
> 
> When you die that's it. There is no sprit in the sky billions of years old checking off a naughty or nice list. I'd also explain that master spirit isn't surrounded by other helpful spirits & the spirits of billions that lived a life worthy of going to the sky.
> 
> Thinking that people meet their relatives would mean that spirit was sentient. So I ask again how do billions of spirits manage to find their loved ones.


Try telling this to those of us *who have seen otherwise*. I know many people who are highly intelligent, reasonable and even scientific minded  people who tend to be skeptical that have seen spirits. I have family members, friends both "in person" and online that I've known for over a decade (and their family members) who have seen entities. Our spirits (souls if you will) are energy. Can you see the energy that powers your devices, your appliances? No...but obviously it's there. I agree with @Gardenlover's reply...particularly about believers and disbelievers not changing each others' views.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 11, 2020)

This doctor was known at an organization I belong to.  Fascinating documented story 
about his NDE…he was pronounced dead and lay in the morgue for hours 
overnight during WW2.  He said he was taken and shown people working on 
a huge set of drawings and later documented it as best he could remember .  Many years 
later it was shown to be the drawings of the USS Nautilus, the first nebular submarine.
He was shown other things about the future times.

https://www.goodreads.com/videos/37650-george-ritchie-explaining-his-own-death

https://www.near-death.com/religion/christianity/george-ritchie.html


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

> "Can you see the energy that powers your devices, your appliances? No...but obviously it's there."


That's a clever attempt to equate the claims that "spirits" are real with energy forces such as electricity.  But it doesn't hold up to one second of real thought.

The fact that something cannot actually be seen with the naked eye doesn't prove it is unreal. Lots of things around us are real, including, unfortunately, the coronavirus, but cannot be seen with the naked eye.  This proves nothing at all about fictitious entities that have been dreamed up by storytellers, or things that exist only in our imagination.

The difference?  The invisible things that are real can be tested, and shown to be real again and again, by scientific experimentation. The coronavirus does show up in microscopic images. And it behaves as expected, in tests or very often, in crowds of people. Electricity does perform as expected when we flip the light switch. The fact that we can't "see" it is irrelevant. Science has rigid standards as to what is proven and what is not.  Just the fact that someone says they "know" something, or that they "have seen otherwise" is not considered proof of anything, except that they believe it is true.

So, when you put a pair of socks into the washing machine, and only one of those socks comes out, the other one having mysteriously disappeared, all that proves is that you can't find the other sock. It doesn't prove that little green gremlins have made off with one of your socks, even if you say you have "seen" them.  Even if this happened to thousands of people, it doesn't prove the little green gremlins exist.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> That's a clever attempt to equate the claims that "spirits" are real with energy forces such as electricity.  But it doesn't hold up to one second of real thought.
> 
> The fact that something cannot actually be seen with the naked eye doesn't prove it is unreal. Lots of things around us are real, including, unfortunately, the coronavirus, but cannot be seen with the naked eye.  This proves nothing at all about fictitious entities that have been dreamed up by storytellers, or things that exist only in our imagination.
> 
> ...


Sunny What I posted was not an attempt to "be clever". You took one sentence of my reply to respond to but did not address the fact that *we have seen these things with out own eyes *and nothing you believe or disbelieve can change that.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

This popped into my head, on this subject.  But of course, Santa Claus is a poetic image; I don't think this lovely essay was designed to make anyone think he is real.

_VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.


Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.


Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.


You may tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.


No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood._


OneEyedDiva said:


> Sunny What I posted was not an attempt to "be clever". You took one sentence of my reply to respond to but did not address the fact that *we have seen these things with out own eyes *and nothing you believe or disbelieve can change that.



Diva, saying *we have seen these things with our own eyes *proves nothing except that you believe you have seen them. Anyone can say they have seen anything, and they can really believe it. Why should anyone else believe it, without proof?

Our minds can play strange tricks on us.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 11, 2020)

I can see both sides equally here.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> How come you didn't answer my simple questions?


I didn't read that you asked questions until this morning. 

2. Now an easy question for you. You say there are no spirits in the sky. Why would you debate if a spirit is sentient or not, if it doesn't exist?


No debate since I never got a reply

3. Another simple question if I may; how do you know there isn't a spiritual realm? Your logic is no different than those with opposing views.

I have faith in my logic. I didn't say there was no spiritual realm. My logic  was that there must be someplace outside the heavens & earth since you can't make something that already exists. I'll add since the universe is not yet determined.
The proper distance—the distance as would be measured at a specific time, including the present—between Earth and the edge of the observable universe is 46 billion light-years (14 billion parsecs), making the diameter of the observable universe about 93 billion light-years (28 billion parsecs).

If people believe there is a place out there good for them .

4. Typically neither side convinces the other to change their opinion. Which brings up yet another question that should be able to be easily answered. Why do we want everyone to think the same way we do?

I don't. I ask questions that aren't answered by those that believe there is a spirit over 13 billion years old that they go to when they die. If that belief gives them comfort it's all good.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> This popped into my head, on this subject.  But of course, Santa Claus is a poetic image; I don't think this lovely essay was designed to make anyone think he is real.
> 
> _VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
> 
> ...


Just because you DON'T believe it doesn't make it untrue.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I can see both sides equally here.


Keeping an open mind to evaluate both sides is fair.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Just because you DON'T believe it doesn't make it untrue.



Marci, that depends on what kind of things I do or don't believe in. If someone comes up with an idea that they are convinced is true, based on no proof whatsoever, and zero probability, why on earth should I believe it?

Seeing fictitious spirits, ghosts, spooks, boogeymen, dead people walking around, entities of the "other side" has long been recognized as a symptom of mental illness.  For the person who is convinced that these entities are real, they don't feel they have any need to back up their claim with any evidence.  But most people do not believe something is true just because somebody said it. Wishful thinking is not the same as reality.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 11, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Sunny What I posted was not an attempt to "be clever". You took one sentence of my reply to respond to but did not address the fact that *we have seen these things with out own eyes *and nothing you believe or disbelieve can change that.


Absolutely, OED...once it happens to you, you can never be the same.  After my mother passed away, she kept coming back to me to tell me of things I should know about, call attention to  that she forgot to tell me...or to comfort me or  point out something even years after she passed that she wanted me to go look at.  Now that is a true spirit...a "love spirit"...lol.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Just because you DON'T believe it doesn't make it untrue.


Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean people aren't chasing you either...lol.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 11, 2020)

@Sunny Just wondering...based on your replies, does this mean you don't believe in God? If you choose to answer at all, it could be as simple as a Yes or No. Whatever you answer will not cause me to disrespect or have any ill feelings toward you.


----------



## Pinky (Dec 11, 2020)

My mother saw her brother sitting at the end of her bed, shrouded in black. News came via letter that he had passed away in Japan. When younger, she had "sightings". I'd never doubted what she said.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> @Sunny Just wondering...based on your replies, does this mean you don't believe in God? If you choose to answer at all, it could be as simple as a Yes or No. Whatever you answer will not cause me to disrespect or have any ill feelings toward you.


Of course not, certainly not the God of traditional religion. I've stated that I am an atheist many times here.

But what does God have to do with any of this?  I thought the discussion was about the dead roaming the earth.  In the traditional Bible, I don't think there are any references to ghosts, spirits, etc. This is more like voodoo religion.

See my notes #86, 96, and 97 on this subject. I've been trying to keep this discussion focused on the original question. But it's like herding kittens.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

LOL


----------



## Elsie (Dec 11, 2020)

Has anyone here mentioned Satan.........if he exists?  How "appearance" of passed on loved ones might be him using deception by way of his evil followers--fallen angels--feigning being those persons?


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> double quoted - sorry.





Sunny said:


> ... I've been trying to keep this discussion focused on the original question. But it's like herding kittens.


Funny.

I appreciate you "attempting" to keep the thread on track.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Elsie said:


> Has anyone here mentioned Satan.........if he exists?  How "appearance" of passed on loved ones might be him using deception by way of his evil followers--fallen angels--feigning being those persons?


Indirectly I asked do "family spirits" that don't make the cut to get into heaven have a way of communicating with those that do?

No replys so I guess the answer is no.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

I believe there's a lot we don't know.


----------



## Elsie (Dec 11, 2020)

I would think that there is chasm between the Saved and unSaved that can't be breached.  Like someone trying to make a phone call to someone using a phone that has no power.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 11, 2020)

Believing that this life is all there is to my existence would give me a nihilistic worldview.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

I believe there's more whether that be in the form of Heaven or just an other world.


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 11, 2020)

Elsie said:


> Has anyone here mentioned Satan.........if he exists?  How "appearance" of passed on loved ones might be him using deception by way of his evil followers--fallen angels--feigning being those persons?



*I read something once, forget the exact quote, but it went something like  If you believe one exists, then it stands to reason that it's opposite also exists.*


----------



## debbie in seattle (Dec 11, 2020)

Interesting.....while my husband was in the process of dying, he told us to look and see his mom and one of his brothers, he swore he could see them and they were talking to him.    Go figure.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 11, 2020)

Thinking we know all there is to know about all the different aspects of the universe is like a bug thinking it knows everything there is to know about humans.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> How come you didn't answer my simple questions?


I did but here it is again.
I didn't read that you asked questions until this morning.

2. Now an easy question for you. You say there are no spirits in the sky. Why would you debate if a spirit is sentient or not, if it doesn't exist?


No debate since I never got a reply

3. Another simple question if I may; how do you know there isn't a spiritual realm? Your logic is no different than those with opposing views.

I have faith in my logic. I didn't say there was no spiritual realm. My logic  was that there must be someplace outside the heavens & earth since you can't make something that already exists. I'll add since the universe is not yet determined.
The proper distance—the distance as would be measured at a specific time, including the present—between Earth and the edge of the observable universe is 46 billion light-years (14 billion parsecs), making the diameter of the observable universe about 93 billion light-years (28 billion parsecs).

If people believe there is a place out there good for them .

4. Typically neither side convinces the other to change their opinion. Which brings up yet another question that should be able to be easily answered. Why do we want everyone to think the same way we do?

I don't. I ask questions that aren't answered by those that believe there is a spirit over 13 billion years old that they go to when they die. If that belief gives them comfort it's all good.

As for that power to run electrical things if you look carefully you can see the ark of electricity.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Thinking we know all there is to know about all the different aspects of the universe is like a bug thinking it knows everything there is to know about humans.


Yet it will scurry away.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 11, 2020)

Knight said:


> I did but here it is again.
> I didn't read that you asked questions until this morning.
> 
> 2. Now an easy question for you. You say there are no spirits in the sky. Why would you debate if a spirit is sentient or not, if it doesn't exist?
> ...


Where do you come up with the 13 billion years my friend?   Thanks for engaging by the way, I'm enjoying the conversation - I hope you are as well.

As I stated a bit earlier, believing that this life is all there is to my existence would give me a nihilistic worldview.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Where do you come up with the 13 billion years my friend?   Thanks for engaging by the way, I'm enjoying the conversation - I hope you are as well.
> 
> As I stated a bit earlier, believing that this life is all there is to my existence would give me a nihilistic worldview.


Exchanging thoughts is always a pleasure.

I've explained other times I believe science is doing mankind a favor by constantly looking for answer. This latest 
How do they know the universe is 13.7 billion years old?
The scientists studied an image of the oldest light in the *universe* to confirm its age of 13.8 *billion years*. This light, the "afterglow" of the Big Bang, is known as the cosmic microwave background and marks a time 380,000 *years* after the *universe's* birth when protons and electrons joined to form the first atoms.Jul 15, 2020

Age of the universe: 13.8 billion years, scientists confirm​www.usatoday.com › story › news › nation › 2020/07/15 


Recent as July  2020
Why a nihilistic worldview? Isn't there enough to wonder about or believe in that isn't part of bible references. 

I believe in evolution.  Evolution is a fact otherwise mankind adapting to different environments wouldn't exist. Rather than me picking an article Google this.

science discovers organisms that live in space. 

The earth as it cooled became the best petri dish for evolution. We could get into DNA variations but explaining how a single family.  Noah & his family that all had the same DNA somehow mutated to what we know now doesn't shed light on ghosts & spirits or souls going somewhere outside our universe. 

Recently an interesting fact popped up. No where on earth are there animals that have no origin except on the island of Madagascar. Kind of late in the game of life for a creator to create those. 

 If believing made in their image works for you great. I have trouble with that as an image only because pre historic man wasn't exactly the version of Adam & Eve most often portrayed. This is the usual.
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/adam-and-eve?phrase=adam and eve&sort=mostpopular


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 12, 2020)

Different OPs result in varying numbers of responses. Isn't it interesting so many respond to a subject no one knows anything about?


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 12, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Different OPs result in varying numbers of responses. Isn't it interesting so many respond to a subject no one knows anything about?


Yes, I'm as guilty in this as anyone, sorry. Let's try to keep this thread on track to the original question without going off into other debatable topics.

But by all means feel free to start a thread on the issues from this post you'd like to discuss in a new thread.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 12, 2020)

"Let's try to keep this thread on track to the original question without going off into other debatable topics."

LOL, good luck with that, Gardenlover!  I've tried, with no success.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 13, 2020)

Here's my analogy; those that don't seek the spiritual, live in a world of black and white, while those who seek the spiritual live in a world filled with color. Spiritually speaking, a person can have eyes but not see and ears but not hear.


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 13, 2020)

*I have read this thread with interest. There are many differing viewpoints. Are there any right or wrong opinions? Hard to say. I feel, with something like this, who does it hurt to believe what you want to believe? I believe that, at times, the dying do see/hear the dead. Do I have proof? Nope, probably not. But, if it gives me comfort that the transition is made easier for my dying loved one, then I take comfort in that.*


----------



## Liberty (Dec 13, 2020)

Often as a personal assurance to the grieving  loved one(s) left behind, the departed one comes to those remaining in vibrant dreams.  This is called "the closure dream".  Afterwards, the person can feel very different about the departed one, know that they are "ok", and the grief then begins to lessen.


----------



## Pecos (Dec 13, 2020)

Well, if the dead are going to greet me, I would like a vote on which ones it will be.


----------



## Elsie (Dec 13, 2020)

Marie5656 said:


> *I read something once, forget the exact quote, but it went something like  If you believe one exists, then it stands to reason that it's opposite also exists.*


----------



## Elsie (Dec 13, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Often as a personal assurance to the grieving  loved one(s) left behind, the departed one comes to those remaining in vibrant dreams.  This is called "the closure dream".  Afterwards, the person can feel very different about the departed one, know that they are "ok", and the grief then begins to lessen.


My year older sister told me that one night while she was in bed, she saw our mother standing at the foot of her bed. and mother told her she/mother was fine.  Anything else, I don't know.  And my sister said she felt much better over mother's death after that.  I've had scary imaginations of evil at the foot of my bed and though frightened, I firmly told them to go back where they belong--something like that--in the name of Christ Jesus and they left.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 13, 2020)

Pecos said:


> Well, if the dead are going to greet me, I would like a vote on which ones it will be.


Wouldn't it be cool to have Elvis greet you and sing you into the gates? *Grins*


----------



## Sunny (Dec 14, 2020)

Elsie said:


> My year older sister told me that one night while she was in bed, she saw our mother standing at the foot of her bed. and mother told her she/mother was fine.  Anything else, I don't know.  And my sister said she felt much better over mother's death after that.  I've had scary imaginations of evil at the foot of my bed and though frightened, I firmly told them to go back where they belong--something like that--in the name of Christ Jesus and they left.



Seeing dead people or mythical characters standing at the foot of the bed is a fairly common reaction to some medications. I've even seen it listed as a side effect.  I've woken up a couple of times with an image of my mother standing at the foot of my bed. The image always disappears in a few seconds. 

I don't attribute any supernatural meaning to this whatsoever. I feel it was either a particularly vivid dream that lingered for a few seconds, or maybe a couple of my medications kicking in.

I loved my mother and would be delighted if she could return for a visit, but since she's been dead since 1982, that isn't too likely.  Our minds play strange tricks on us. Since you obviously regard your images as "scary imaginations," you sound like you have a firm grip on reality.  If you thought they are real, that would not be so harmless, IMO.


----------



## Liberty (Dec 14, 2020)

Think the reason my mom comes back to me...even years after her passing is the fact we studied spiritually together for many years.  She wasn't prepared to go to sleep and wait for the horn to blow and wake her up.
She was reading for "the great adventure" to begin.  She knew that.

She told me things I didn't know and couldn't possibly have known.  

Do believe our loved ones can become our personal angels to help us from the other side.

Knowledge is power and with it comes responsibility.


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 15, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Yes, I'm as guilty in this as anyone, sorry. Let's try to keep this thread on track to the original question without going off into other debatable topics.
> 
> But by all means feel free to start a thread on the issues from this post you'd like to discuss in a new thread.


I guess I owe an apology for expressing what I posted..........................................................Nah-h-h-h


----------



## fmdog44 (Dec 15, 2020)

Gardenlover said:


> Here's my analogy; those that don't seek the spiritual, live in a world of black and white, while those who seek the spiritual live in a world filled with color. Spiritually speaking, a person can have eyes but not see and ears but not hear.


The spiritual is to many in our world another term for ignorance.


----------



## Gardenlover (Dec 15, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> I guess I owe an apology for expressing what I posted..........................................................Nah-h-h-h


Not in the least.


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 15, 2020)

*This memory just came back to me now. When I was about 12yrs old my Dad's sister had passed away. A year later her youngest child woke up **one morning and told her Dad she saw her Mom taking her older brother Joey in her arms. Later that day her brother Joey got hit by a car and died.*
*I remember how that shook me up all those years ago.*


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Dec 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Of course not, certainly not the God of traditional religion. I've stated that I am an atheist many times here.
> 
> But what does God have to do with any of this?  I thought the discussion was about the dead roaming the earth.  In the traditional Bible, I don't think there are any references to ghosts, spirits, etc. This is more like voodoo religion.
> 
> See my notes #86, 96, and 97 on this subject. I've been trying to keep this discussion focused on the original question. But it's like herding kittens.


I have never seen your posts about being an atheist. I asked about God because those of us who do believe do so on faith, not needing scientific proof or because we have actually seen Him. I expected you to say you didn't believe in God because obviously for you "seeing is believing".


----------



## Jim W. (Dec 21, 2020)

In September of 2017, on the morning of my mom's last day alive, right before I woke up, I saw my late father in a dream. He was standing in front of a brick wall and he just smiled at me then I woke up. I drove to the nursing home where my mom had been in for six months and spent the rest of the day sitting by her bedside. She took her last breath at around 9:50 pm that night., 

Ever since my dad passed away in 2004 I had never dreamed of him before and I haven't since. It was just on that one day, my mom's last day, that he appeared to me in a dream.

Coincidence?


----------



## Sunny (Dec 21, 2020)

Diva, the concept of "faith" doesn't work for me. Anybody can say anything, and expect to be believed as a matter of faith. 

But "seeing is believing" is a little too simplistic for me also. I don't have to personally see something with my own eyes in order to believe that it exists. If trusted scientists tell me there is a nasty virus out there which mainly travels through the air in droplets from one person to another, I believe them. I don't have to actually see the virus. The fact of its existence is proven by scientific methodology, not because I have faith in what someone says he/she saw.  Their assertions have to be repeatedly provable by other scientists. 

My mind is more open to religion than you probably think. I don't believe in the traditional God(s) of organized religion. But I can accept that there may be order and reason to the universe, way beyond what any of us can imagine. This is not the God of the Bible, and the ultimate truth that governs the universe is probably more like an equation.

So, to get back to the original question, I don't believe in ghosts, spirits, etc. because the descriptions of them are too anecdotal, and there is absolutely no proof. Nice as something may sound, we don't have to believe it is true just because someone says they saw or heard it. It is well known that our minds play all kinds of tricks on us; probably in the moments before death, the brain is oxygen-deprived and thinks it sees something that it wants to see. There are such things as "vivid dreams," which can occur in a half-awake state.

Anybody who wants to believe in spirits roaming the earth has a perfect right to believe whatever makes them happy. But I have the same right to say I don't believe any of this stuff is true. We all follow our own guiding light of truth.

All this made me chuckle, remembering a cousin of mine who was a very stiff-necked, stubborn religious believer, who refused to accept Darwin's theory of evolution. He said, "The day a monkey calls me up on the phone, that will be the day I believe in evolution."  According to him if it contradicts the Bible,  it can't be true. So we all follow whatever truth works for us.


----------



## Lakeland living (Jan 23, 2021)

The dead/ dieing can communicate. I know my mother died to the minute, she woke me up to say she was leaving. I know this because my sister was with her.  So yes there is a great deal of our world we don't know anything about...


----------



## Keesha (Jan 23, 2021)

Absolutely, without a doubt.... in my lifetime and experiences. Even our pets can say goodbye before they actually die and go to the other dimension.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 23, 2021)

Deleted. Not good with expressing my personal opinions.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Jan 23, 2021)

This is one of those speculations no one truly knows until we're dead. I refrain from commenting assuredly regarding questions or statements beyond my realm of understanding. 

I am content in knowing I don't know everything including matters of spirituality and religion, however, it is true, I know everything else.


----------



## dobielvr (Jan 23, 2021)

Mike said:


> I thought at the time that she was confused, but who knows,
> perhaps the dead do visit through somebody else and make
> that person look like they do, at least to the one passing.
> 
> Mike.


Wow...that's interesting.  I never thought of it like that.  That makes a lot of sense now.....


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Jan 23, 2021)

People believe what they want to believe. Faith requires no proof. Truth does.  Not all of us are believers.


----------



## Gardenlover (Jan 23, 2021)

The sad thing is, even if I have proof of the spiritual realm, people will still not believe. People on both sides of the discussion put blinders on, put fingers in their hears and hum lalalalala nan a nan boo boo, I can't hear you.


----------



## Gardenlover (Jan 23, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Well, that's a novel approach, to say the least.  The way I've always understood it, the burden of proof is always with the person who makes an assertion that something is true. The burden of non-proof doesn't rest with science.
> 
> So if I say I am really a unicorn, does that mean it has to be taken seriously, until some scientist proves that I am not a unicorn?  And if I say that my snake oil potion, that I am selling at a bargain price, has a 100% cure rate against covid-19, that has to be considered true until "science" proves that it's a hoax?  Should everybody buy and take the potion, because science hasn't gotten around to investigating it?
> 
> Leads to a pretty slippery slope, IMO.


My logic is along the lines of innocent until proven guilty.


----------



## Gardenlover (Jan 23, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> People believe what they want to believe. Faith requires no proof. Truth does.  Not all of us are believers.


Now a days even the truth is sadly debatable.


----------



## Dana (Jan 23, 2021)

I'd rather not have a welcoming party until I've settled in, and then, it will be by invitation only!


----------



## Sunny (Jan 24, 2021)

Gardenlover said:


> The sad thing is, even if I have proof of the spiritual realm, people will still not believe. People on both sides of the discussion put blinders on, put fingers in their hears and hum lalalalala nan a nan boo boo, I can't hear you.



If the "proof" was really proof, it would be believed. Yes, even if it contradicted what most people had thought before. You can't put your fingers in your ears and refuse to acknowledge the truth, unless you are an idiot. Science doesn't work that way.

If something passes honest-to-goodness tests (not the woo-woo assertions of people who dreamed something and are convinced it is the truth), and repeated tests show the same findings, then it is generally accepted. That is true whether we are talking about Covid vaccines or whether ghosts appear from the afterlife.  You say something is true? Prove it!

As I've repeated umpteen times in these discussions, science is always open to new findings, and new proof. It is not "sacred" and has nothing to do with the blind acceptance known as "faith."  Prove something, really prove it, and most rational people will believe you, at least until some contradictory evidence comes along.

I think the human mind is amazing in its ability to believe fairy tales, because they sound "nice," or play into their emotional needs. But one definition of sanity might be the ability to recognize when a fairy tale is just that.


----------



## dobielvr (Feb 3, 2021)

Gardenlover said:


> The sad thing is, even if I have proof of the spiritual realm, people will still not believe. People on both sides of the discussion put blinders on, put fingers in their hears and hum lalalalala nan a nan boo boo, I can't hear you.


That is so true.  I feel that until it has actually happened to you, you will have a hard time believing.

I used a recorder to prove to others what I was hearing....


----------



## dobielvr (Feb 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Absolutely, without a doubt.... in my lifetime and experiences. Even our pets can say goodbye before they actually die and go to the other dimension.


Yes!!  My favorite dog did just that......


----------



## Keesha (Feb 3, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> Yes!!  My favorite dog did just that......


One of our dogs did and one of our bunnies.
Oddly enough this bunny’s message was the strongest and clearest even though I was closer to the dog but I spoiled this bunny rotten. His favourite food was gladiolus and I’d buy fresh bunches of these flowers for him. Cashiers would often comment how lovely they were and look at me oddly when I’d reply that I’m sure the bunny will just love them. 
He was litter and harness trained. We’d take him for walks.


----------



## dobielvr (Feb 3, 2021)

Sounds like a very special bunny    

Sorry.


----------



## Elsie (Feb 15, 2021)

I do not believe any of the dead visit, or contact anyone living. However, some people have spiritual faith in it, but because there is no _scientific_ proof of it many scientists insist it is not factual.   Now, are not scientists human beings?  And capable of error?  Over & over again, scientists have "jumped-the-gun" and said they'd "found" the answer to whatever only to find their answer was in error/their research incomplete. 
A friend of mine, who had occasional panic attacks got the courage up one evening to walk to the store, this not long after her beloved mother had died.  While she anxiously walked to the store, each time she passed a street light it went out.  She said she believed with each streetlight going off after she had passed it she felt it was her mother watching over for her.  Calming her.  Her husband drove her home from the store.


----------



## Fyrefox (Feb 18, 2021)

Now, we all know from the movie _Beetlejuice _that when we die, we’ll be issued a copy of that _Newlydead _book.  It will tell us the basics of what we‘ll need to know.  I hope to meet _Beetlejuice _himself (below) to train as a _bio-exorcist.  _I could feed off _Beetlejuice’s _manic energy like, _forever, _which is basically my plan if he’ll have me as an assistant. I really wish that they’d make a sequel to this movie; Michael Keaton could now play the role with less makeup, being older...and it’s hard to keep a good dead guy down, so to speak...


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 18, 2021)

It gives great comfort to believe it's true.


----------

