# The 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner.



## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

I believe the big Covid question that does not seem to be debated is has our reaction to this disease been worthwhile?  Is it bad enough to justify all the expense and disruption?

I believe this question may be at the core of a lot of the debate, but it goes unsaid.  Instead we argue about vaccines, masks and quarantines.  I don't see that as very productive without first deciding the big question.

If I look at what I can find on current statistics there have been 745,000 Covid deaths in the US and about 5,000,000 worldwide.  Numbers may vary by source, however this seems the commonly published range.  Those are big numbers, and if that was all it was to it I would agree we need to be taking heroic actions to stop the virus.  However there seem to me to be some questions that could impact a rational decision, such as:

How good are these numbers?  We hear a lot about them either being inflated or undercounts.  What is the truth of the matter, I think we need to look at this very closely.
What would the prognosis of these people who died of Covid have been without the virus?  I suspect at least some were terminally ill with other ailments and would not have lived much longer.  I could be wrong but I'd like to know.  Another way of looking at this is how many years of life has the virus cost us?  And the flip side how many life years do the actions we take save?
What have been the impacts of Covid prevention actions taken?  I suspect these have cost some lives, such as:
Depression and perhaps suicide due to being isolated.
Making people poorer, deficit spending and reduction in economic activity has its impacts, and poorer people have shorter lifespans.

And then there is the whole issue of the cost benefit of vaccinations, I believe that vaccines saved live, but I know some others don't.  This is the one issue on my list for which I think there is adequate data and reasonable scientific analysis available.  Putting this together with the other issues would help.
What is the likely long term effect of our preventative actions?  To  what extent are we just dragging out the inevitable?  Will everyone eventually get Covid anyway?
I know its a lot easier for most of us to focus on the smaller picture than the bigger one, but in this case I think the big one is important.  I know we cannot expect exact answers to questions like these, but I think we can do better.  Then we could better think about the big picture question, what is it really worth?

What do y'all think?

Has it been worthwhile?  If not how lethal would a disease have to be to make it worthwhile?


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## RadishRose (Oct 30, 2021)

Unfortunately I think this thread will end up as yet another argument. Sorry.


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## Don M. (Oct 30, 2021)

One of the most important aspects of this pandemic, IMO, is what is it costing us, and what will be the long term effects on our entire economy.  

Here's a site that is tracking these costs...by State.  
https://www.fairhealth.org/states-by-the-numbers/covid19-heatmap

How will these costs be paid for?  What will be the long term effects on our health care system?


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## DaveA (Oct 30, 2021)

Well you can always pick a number.  70, 75, maybe 80. When do YOU want to pull the plug on otherwise healthy folks.  Save all the attempts to medicate after a certain age.  Give 'em a cheap pill  if it becomes too painful?

You could leave off all of the vaccines to young kids and let nature take it's course.  Those shots are also filling the pockets of "Big Pharma " and our doctor's who prescribe them same as the COVID  vaccines.

Time to put on the "God Robe" and be the one who decides.  After all, we now know (or at least some of us)  all there is  to know about  medicine from the "research " that we garner from TV, our local library, or used book sales.

I'd write more but it's time for my evening poisons, er, sorry, I meant pills.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> How will these costs be paid for? What will be the long term effects on our health care system?


Thanks Don, interesting website, I had not seem that before.  

I think we all know that we will pay these costs, we the middle class public, one way or another.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Unfortunately I think this thread will end up as yet another argument. Sorry.


Maybe so, but I hope not.  I would like to hear what folks have to say and their bases for saying it.  Hopefully in a constructive conversation.  I know I disagree with a lot of the folks here, understanding them is a part of my objective.  And I am open to having my mind changed.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 30, 2021)

“Has our reaction to this disease been worth it”. Meaning, I guess, the response of our government and all that encompassed.

Well, I am still alive. My children are still alive.  My grandchildren are still alive.  My great grandchildren are still alive.  Hmm.  

*Yes, for me, our government’s reaction to this disease has been worth it.*

I could not care less about anyone’s else’s opinion on this subject, and I make no apologies for my attitude.  My family is more important than someone unable to find a certain cut of steak or a favorite brand of cola.  My family is more important than paying increased taxes.  My family is more important, to me, than someone“s else’s job.

This is an honest reply, and I assume it’s the actual honest reply that everyone else would give.


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## Irwin (Oct 30, 2021)

Personally, I don't believe that the covid-19 pandemic is a giant conspiracy concocted by shape-shifting reptilian aliens from another planet so they could track our movements by implanting RF transmitters in our arms disguised as vaccines, or that getting the vaccine will alter our DNA and cause us to grow additional appendages out of our foreheads, but that's just me.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

@Aneeda72 thanks for your answer, and I can understand it.  Have you given any thought to the possibility that:


Aneeda72 said:


> I am still alive. My children are still alive. My grandchildren are still alive. My great grandchildren are still alive.


Might be true anyway, and you might be better off for it?  Not saying is is or not, just something to think about.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> @Aneeda72 thanks for your answer, and I can understand it.  Have you given any thought to the possibility that:
> 
> Might be true anyway, and you might be better off for it?  Not saying is is or not, just something to think about.


My son, his SO, my daughter, her husband, and the baby when she was 2, have all had Covid.  My son, Joey, currently has delta Covid.  Have I given any thought to what’s going on?  *Why yes, yes I have.  While visiting Joey, on the overflow Covid ward at the hospital, when the Covid doctor said “if he had not been vaccinated, he would have died.”  Cause he’s overweight and has Downs Syndrome.

I have given it a GREAT DEAL of thought.  I’ve thought of nothing else lately, cause he could still die, cause he still has Covid.  @Alligatorob *


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

Thanks @Aneeda72 and I agree, I believe the vaccine is a good thing and has been worth it.  I am glad your son and family were able to get it also.  

What do you think about the rest of the response, masks, distancing, shutdowns, etc?  They did not keep Joey from getting it, and have cost the economy.  Do you believe that had more folks been vaccinated Joey might not have gotten it?


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Thanks @Aneeda72 and I agree, I believe the vaccine is a good thing and has been worth it.  I am glad your son and family were able to get it also.
> 
> What do you think about the rest of the response, masks, distancing, shutdowns, etc?  They did not keep Joey from getting it, and have cost the economy.  Do you believe that had more folks been vaccinated Joey might not have gotten it?


I believe that Delta is a game changer.  If it had not been for Delta, he would not have gotten covid.  Everyone around him was vaccinated.  Delta spread through the sheltered workshop like wildfire, and it has been closed for two weeks-possibly longer.

All the things you mentioned worked fine for the other Covids.


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## Alizerine (Oct 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> One of the most important aspects of this pandemic, IMO, is what is it costing us, and what will be the long term effects on our entire economy.
> 
> Here's a site that is tracking these costs...by State.
> https://www.fairhealth.org/states-by-the-numbers/covid19-heatmap
> ...


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## Alizerine (Oct 30, 2021)

It's a little late to start worrying about cost. If it hadn't been treated as a hoax in the beginning and people were encouraged to get the vaccine we probably could have avoided Delta. Too many politicians rally their base with fear and outrage. it will only get worse because it haw been effective.


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## chic (Oct 30, 2021)

I'm going to abstain from making my opinion personal because each individual will respond to your question subjectively so there is little hope for an open and honest debate based upon what scientific evidence we have regarding covid. 

It's a good question though and one many of us ask ourselves in our hearts.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

Alizerine said:


> It's a little late to start worrying about cost.


You are right, there is a lot of water under this bridge, but it's not over, or too late to change some things. 

More importantly I think a rational discussion now will help the next time around.  You can bet it is isn't the last pandemic mankind will face.  Hope I am not around for that last one...


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## win231 (Oct 30, 2021)

chic said:


> I'm going to abstain from making my opinion personal because each individual will respond to your question subjectively so there is little hope for an open and honest debate based upon what scientific evidence we have regarding covid.
> 
> It's a good question though and one many of us ask ourselves in our hearts.


Ya got that right about little hope for an open & honest debate.
No such thing as open & honest with this kind of fear, frustration & programming.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

chic said:


> I'm going to abstain from making my opinion personal because each individual will respond to your question subjectively so there is little hope for an open and honest debate based upon what scientific evidence we have regarding covid.


I understand, it has been hard to get that "_open and honest debate based upon what scientific evidence_", not just here but in many places.  If we could I think it would be helpful to all.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 30, 2021)

win231 said:


> Ya got that right about little hope for an open & honest debate.
> No such thing as open & honest with this kind of fear, frustration & programming.


Without some attempt at that debate decision making seems to go to whoever can make the most noise and/or can best control behind the scenes lobbying.  Gives more power to big Pharma and the like.

Win, you strike me as a smart guy, not easily intimidated or programed.


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## Knight (Oct 30, 2021)

As the pandemic seems to be winding down & the death toll numbers are counted I agree with Aneeda72 that the action taken was worth it. 

It's way to easy after the fact to critique what was done since it can't possibly be known what would have happened if the leaders world wide would have done nothing. 

I kind of like the fact that me & my family are alive to see the economic impact & the way people panicked. I have to hope that nothing else panics people since that as an experience wasn't good.


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## Judycat (Oct 30, 2021)

I think this is how we humans react to a crisis. We separate into tribes and draw battle lines. This is why we need governments to make and enforce laws for everyone. Otherwise we'd be killing each other quicker than Covid does.


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## win231 (Oct 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Without some attempt at that debate decision making seems to go to whoever can make the most noise and/or can best control behind the scenes lobbying.  Gives more power to big Pharma and the like.
> 
> Win, you strike me as a smart guy, not easily intimidated or programed.


It must be true, judging by the people who have tried & failed.   
Two enterprises who will never forget me are the _Dept. of Water & Power _& _The L.A. Tax Assessor.  _
Both tried for years to rip me off.  Dept. of Water & Power paid dearly; they ended up being forced to give me several thousand dollars in refunds & fines.....over two years of bills that said, _"No Payment Necessary."_

L.A. Tax Collector tried to _illegally_ reassess my house & get me to pay $32,000.00/year in property tax & also another $18,000.00 in fines for _"Delinquency." _ They tried threatening to lien sale my house if I didn't pay.   HAHA.  After I contacted a council person & the Governor, they backed off & sent me a regular tax bill - $6300.00.  They were also forced to write to me, declaring that their ripoff attempt was_ "In Error." _&_ I should disregard their previous bills. _ I responded_:  "I've been disregarding your fraudulent bills for several years, you thieves."_
Yeah.....we couldn't rip you off, so now we made _"An Error."_

So, when they "Hard Sell" a vaccine or drug & exaggerate infections & mortality rates..............well, I see that as "Time to do some thinkin."


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## chic (Oct 31, 2021)

Sweden never locked down or mandated or ruined their economy. Someone explain why they are doing better than countries with the strictest measures? They came out of this just fine while most people predicted they wouldn't.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 31, 2021)

IMO the federal response was over the top and inappropriate.

I believe that under different leadership it would have been treated as a public health issue best handled by the medical and scientific communities.

I believe that the federal government should have used its power to help create one voice, implement recommendations, remove barriers, fund the states, and not open the financial floodgates with stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment, etc...

IMO it has been a mess but in fairness, most emergencies are a mess.


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## Butterfly (Oct 31, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Personally, I don't believe that the covid-19 pandemic is a giant conspiracy concocted by shape-shifting reptilian aliens from another planet so they could track our movements by implanting RF transmitters in our arms disguised as vaccines, or that getting the vaccine will alter our DNA and cause us to grow additional appendages out of our foreheads, but that's just me.



You forgot the one about the vaccine making people magnetic.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 31, 2021)

chic said:


> Sweden never locked down or mandated or ruined their economy. Someone explain why they are doing better than countries with the strictest measures? They came out of this just fine while most people predicted they wouldn't.


Good point, I think the Sweden case should be closely considered.  You are right they stand out in comparison to most developed countries in having fewer restrictions.  The Covid rates in Sweden have been lower than many countries, like the US but higher than their immediate neighbors who had stricter rules.  For some statistics see: https://www.politifact.com/factchec...s-low-covid-19-death-tally-july-ignores-othe/ 



Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that under different leadership it would have been treated as a public health issue best handled by the medical and scientific communities.
> 
> I believe that the federal government should have used its power to help create one voice, implement recommendations, remove barriers, fund the states, and not open the financial floodgates with stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment, etc...


I agree, our leadership was dismal...


Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it has been a mess but in fairness, most emergencies are a mess.


Unfortunately true, but I think this one has been worse than most, and worse than it could or should have been...


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## Tom 86 (Oct 31, 2021)

Does no one ever talk about the flu??
*The overall burden of influenza (flu) for the 2018-2019 season was an estimated 29 million flu illnesses, 13 million flu-related medical visits, 380,000 flu-related hospitalizations, and 28,000 flu deaths (Table 1).*

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 31, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Does no one ever talk about the flu??
> *The overall burden of influenza (flu) for the 2018-2019 season was an estimated 29 million flu illnesses, 13 million flu-related medical visits, 380,000 flu-related hospitalizations, and 28,000 flu deaths (Table 1).*
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html


Well, get a flu shot.  Nope we don’t talk about the flu.  It’s all just Covid, Covid, Covid.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 31, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Does no one ever talk about the flu??


It does make a good bench mark.  Based on your statistics it's 5 to 10% of Covid, death rate anyway.


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## Knight (Oct 31, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> What do y'all think?
> 
> Has it been worthwhile?  If not how lethal would a disease have to be to make it worthwhile?


After much has been discovered & actions taken to minimize the impact of a virus that definitely was deadly. Learning from what took place IMO is the way forward. 

As for Sweden blocking entry may have helped in their way to deal with the pandemic.  I'm pretty sure analysis of every thing related to the pandemic will be published sometime in the future so I'm willing to wait to see what the gorilla weight turns out to be.


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## helenbacque (Oct 31, 2021)

The chaotic, disjointed, unorganized, politicized response in the U.S. pointed out the need for some form of universal health care in this country.  It was a universal health issue and never should have been allowed to become a political football.


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## charry (Oct 31, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Unfortunately I think this thread will end up as yet another argument. Sorry.


...yep rose ....I agree ......no feedback from me either....


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## charry (Oct 31, 2021)

I think I prefer them driving me mad with BREXIT


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## HoneyNut (Oct 31, 2021)

Personally I feel it is worth it to not spread Covid (I like being healthy and alive, and I hope I am a productive member of society and have earned the right to stay alive even after I retire).
I am not sure how to compare the costs, if we had allowed covid to run free what would be the cost to our health system, what would be the cost to our productivity -- my workplace has an abundance of baby boomers in so many positions that don't have adequate backup/replacement people, I don't feel like we could really afford to lose them - the systems take a long time to learn (and it seems to be really hard to find people smart enough to learn them), and supposedly our system is the third most important one to the US Gov't, what would be the cost to the country if our system was down?  And what about the systems that are 1st and 2nd most important?
If we want to talk about preventable costs, maybe we should talk about type2 diabetes and the sugar industry?


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## John cycling (Oct 31, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> If I look at what I can find on current statistics there have been 745,000 Covid deaths in the US and about 5,000,000 worldwide.  Numbers may vary by source,


Those* fake statistics* are put out by the same people who own the vaccination corporations, the CDC and the mainstream media.

The truth is that:
Health officials from nine countries *have not been able to find a virus* <--
The statement on virus isolation <-- states that *a covid19 virus has not been proven to exist.*
Due to not meeting the isolation and other Koch's Postulates <-- requirements, *no virus has ever been proven to exist.*

Note:  The same people who put out the *fake statistics** and news* own some of the search engines and might have invaded your computer as well, especially if you're still using a microsoft operating system.  I found the first link from https://duckduckgo.com/. <--

@Knight - now you're quoting the dangerous fake news put out by the overlords.   **
I agree with @Sunny that, although she's *getting into politics again* by saying so, any dangerous propaganda and fake news
frauds put out by the overlords such as reuters, the CDC and the mainstream media that they own should not be tolerated.


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## Knight (Oct 31, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Those fake statistics are put out by the same people who own the vaccination corporations, the CDC and the mainstream media.
> 
> The truth is that:
> Health officials from nine countries *have not been able to find a virus* <--
> ...


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## Alligatorob (Oct 31, 2021)

Knight said:


> *This is a known dangerous webpage. It is highly recommended that you do NOT visit this page.*


Yeah, my McAfee would not let me open it either.  The other 2 worked.


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## Knight (Nov 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Yeah, my McAfee would not let me open it either.  The other 2 worked.


Yeah the others worked but a little checking shows this 
https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...-prove-the-existence-of-a-virus-idUSL2N2L23F1

Fact Check-Koch’s postulates do not need to be fulfilled to prove the existence of a virus​By Reuters Fact Check
9 MIN READ

An article that claims that researchers have not proven that SARS-CoV-2 causes COVID-19 uses outdated criteria and presents incomplete facts to make its arguments. The article focuses on how researchers have not fulfilled Koch’s postulates - a 19th-century set of criteria to show a microbe causes a disease - as they were originally understood.
Koch’s postulates were presented in 1890 (here and here), at a time when germ theory was still controversial and before the discovery of viruses, to which Koch’s postulates, as they were originally written, do not apply. Koch himself recognised the postulates had exceptions (here), and they have not been established for many disease-causing microbes. Modern criteria that confirm that a virus causes a disease have been demonstrated for COVID-19.


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## Sunny (Nov 1, 2021)

If someone is (deliberately or not) trying to spread a link to a dangerous web page, shouldn't the board administrator remove the whole thread?


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## JimBob1952 (Nov 1, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Those fake statistics are put out by the same people who own the vaccination corporations, the CDC and the mainstream media.
> 
> The truth is that:
> Health officials from nine countries *have not been able to find a virus* <--
> ...




Your "sources" are a bunch of crackpot websites.  I've lost a couple of first cousins, some older friends and some acquaintances to this "fraud."  Last week I went to a meeting with the head of a local healthcare network who described the stresses this so-called hoax has put on his staff and resources.  Is he making that up? If so, why?  

Just curious, what's your take on the 1969 moon landing?  Was that a hoax as well?


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