# Can a person live on the minimum wage?



## Warrigal (Nov 9, 2013)

I just came across this article on retailers opening on Thanksgiving and the campaign for an increase to the minimum wage.

I note that California has just raised the minimum wage to a measly $10 an hour. How many hours per week would you have to work to support yourself and raise a family at that rate?

I don't suppose people asked to work on Thanksgiving get any sort of loading such as being paid time and a half?

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opin...rotest-20131107,0,5995823.story#axzz2kBS56d9X


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## Sid (Nov 9, 2013)

A lot of people where I work life in apartments within walking distance. They talk about 6-7 hundred dollars a month for rent. That does include water and sewer,does not include electrical. Then you figure mandated insurance at around 4 hundred a month. That shoots about  a thousand dollars out of sixteen hundred IF you work a forty hour week. They don't have a car so no upkeep there.  That is based on what they tell me they are paying.
  When I started out Minnimum wage was around 3 dollar an hour. Good clean housing could be found for 1 hundred a month. Gasoline was around thirty cents a gallon. Everybody offered at least forty hours a week with plenty of chance for overtime.
  I might add i did not see many min wage jobs. They all paid fifty cents an hour or more to start


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## Bee (Nov 9, 2013)

At todays rate of exchange 10US$ =GBP £ 6.28............minimum adult hourly rate from October in the UK rose to GBH£6.31.

So how much is Australias minimum wage????


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## SifuPhil (Nov 9, 2013)

Those workers should be _thankful_ that they even _have_ a job. What do they expect will happen if they _do_ get their raise? The cost of living will go up yet again.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 9, 2013)

The minimum wage has not been raised in the US since 2009 at the national level...and we wonder why people are struggling.  I think the economy would improve greatly if the minimum wage was raised, minimum wage earners spend every cent they make, it would all be put back into the economy.

Here is Bill Maher's take on minimum wage......the dude is right on....

*Bill Maher Takes Minimum Wage Employers to Task in 'New Rules' Segement*



MAHER: Now, when it comes to raising the minimum wage, conservatives always say it's a non-starter because it cuts into profits. Well, yeah. Of course. Paying workers is one of those unfortunate expenses of running a business... you know, like taxes, or making a product. 

If you want to get rich with a tax-free enterprise that sells nothing, start a church. 

You might think that paying people enough to live is so self-evident that even crazy people could understand it, but you would be wrong. 

Michele Bachmann is not only against raising the minimum wage, she's against having one at all. She once said "if we took away the minimum wage... we could virtually wipe out unemployment because we would be able to offer jobs at whatever level." 

Put that in your brain and smoke it. You could hire everyone if you didn't have to pay them. And naturally, Ted Cruz agrees.Ted Cruz thinks it's a good thing that when his Cuban father came to America he was paid $.50 an hour to work as a dishwasher, before becoming Charo. 

When did the American dream become this pathway to indentured servitude? This economic death spiral where workers get paid next to nothing, so they can only afford to buy next to nothing, so businesses are forced to sell cheaper and cheaper sh*t? 

Walmart employees can only afford to shop at Walmart. McDonalds workers can only afford to eat at McDonalds. And Hooters waitresses have to wear shirts they grew out of years ago. 

Even if you're not moved by the "don't be such a heartless pri*k" argument, consider the fact that most fast food workers, whose average age by the way now is 29, we're not talking about kids, are on some form of public assistance. Which is not surprising. When even working people can't make enough to live, they take money from the government in the form of food stamps, school lunches, housing assistance, day care. This is the welfare that conservatives hate. 

But they never stop to think, if we raised the minimum wage and forced McDonalds and Walmart to pay their employees enough to eat, we the taxpayers wouldn't have to pick up the slack. 

This is the question the right has to answer. Do you want smaller government with less handouts, or do you want a low minimum wage? Because you cannot have both. 

If Col. Sanders isn't going to pay the lady behind the counter enough to live on, then Uncle Sam has to, and I for one am getting a little tired of helping highly profitable companies pay their workers.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 9, 2013)

I usually like and enjoy Bill Maher but I think he's off-base on this.

First, take a company like Wal-Mart. Do you honestly believe that the execs are willing to take a cut in their profits in order to pay a higher minimum? No way. So how to make up the difference?

I know - we'll squeeze our suppliers and get even cheaper merchandise while simultaneously raising the prices that we charge for it.

So the employees will get their raise and we'll keep our profits, while both the employees and the general public will be sheared with the higher costs. 

What some of these talking heads overlook in their appeals to emotion is that the money has to _come_ from someplace - it doesn't just magically appear through force of will. They don't acknowledge that the Butterfly Effect is in operation and that every dollar an employee's pay is raised is going to create wide ripples throughout the country. 

And since the majority of these workers are limited to part-time they should perhaps devote their spare time to attempting to create an alternate income system through self-employment instead of watching trash TV and scheming how to feed off the government teat.


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## Katybug (Nov 9, 2013)

Minimum wage existence as is = impossible.  Totally agree w/Jackie on more than tired of helping highly profitable companies pay their workers, as I'm sure everyone else does.  And I'm especially tired of feeling guilty if I don't tip 20% because the darned restaurant owners pay one level above nothing, but that is never going to change!

This wouldn't work for everyone, but my friend in her late 50's lost her job as an Estee Lauder rep.  I'm SURE it had nothing to do with her age, but she had been with them for 25 yrs....aarrgghh!!!!  She hated staying home (which she had to sell) and almost immediately began cleaning houses in her development with neighbors she knew, and now has her daughter/3rd yr college helping her when she can.  (Her dad is paying all her expenses, so her help is out of love.)  They are clearing $20/hr and don't have even a half day that isn't filled, including Saturdays.  It's beyond exhaustive, back breaking work and worth every penny, and where else are you going to earn that kind of $$$?  Not legal, and there may be complaints on this, but she's not claiming it on taxes.  She knows it's risky and she'll be penalized re Social Security benefits, so she's stashing what she can and living as meagerly as possible.  She never claimed a penny from unemployment.  She was too proud to even apply for it...sold everything she had of any value, traded down cars, and used her severance pay & savings 'til she put some customers together.   Word of mouth did the rest.  Problem is she's getting too old to keep up this pace.  She doesn't want to take an early retirement, so we do what we have to do when we know there are dire straits coming quickly and certainly no jobs for 62 year olds.  

We're talking merely one job that pays very well if you are able to literally work your arse off, and were in the right place at the right time to have the opportunity.  God help the multitudes of families who are earning peanuts and no way to get beyond it.   It's heartbreaking!


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## GDAD (Nov 9, 2013)

Australian full time minimum wage: $16.37/hour = $622.20/week(40 hour)
Casual workers rate; = $20.40/hour


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## grannyjo (Nov 9, 2013)

The national minimum wage in about August 2013,  the latest information I could find for Australia was $A16.37 per hour - about $650 per month - it may have gone up just a bit since then.  That was for an adult.  Someone under 16 years of age - the minimum was about $A6.37 per hour. A house, two or three bedroom,  here to rent in a national capital city is usually about anywhere between $400- $500 per week.  My niece, who is on the aged pension rents a  "granny flat" - that's a converted one car garage, with a small bedroom, a bathroom/ laundry/toilet and small living area,  for $1,000 per month in the western suburbs of Sydney.


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## Ozarkgal (Nov 9, 2013)

*PHIL*:





> What some of these talking heads overlook in their appeals to emotion is that the money has to _comefrom someplace - it doesn't just magically appear through force of will. They don't acknowledge that the Butterfly Effect is in operation and that every dollar an employee's pay is raised is going to create wide ripples throughout the country._


_ 

This is the point I was going to make, which Phil so eloquently beat me to.  Raising minimum wage creates a never ending circle of raising wages, then raising the price of goods and services to pay for the increased wages, ending right back where it started with minimum wage employees still not being able to afford anymore than they could before the raise.  This also serves to curtail spending from higher wage middle class earners that also have a spending limit.  
Because as we know, the kamillion dollar a year execs are never going to take a pay cut or put any company profits back into wages without increasing the price of goods.


Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage when it started out.  Most people who earned minimum wage were students, or people just starting out in the workforce, looking forward to climbing the ladder with acquired skills or education.  

Having said that, I am sickened by the greedy grab of the retailers these days.  Would they truly go out of business by giving their workers Thanksgiving day off.  If people are so desperate to buy their mostly cheap Chinese made crap, I'm sure that 24 hours would not make a difference.

I, for one will never support this greedy effort on the part of the retailers by shopping on *any * holiday. I cannot understand the mindset of consumers who who support this by que up for hours or days on end to buy this junk. 

__Hell, what am I saying, I don't shop at all for Christmas anyway....they hate people like me already.
__
Perhaps if the public didn't have such a greedy consumer gotta have mentality, and stopped buying billions of dollars worth of crap from China that they don't need, we could actually rely less on retailers for the economy, and get back to some real manufacturing and craftsman skills in this country. That in turn would create jobs and put people to work at jobs that pay decent wages.  

 Instead of paying higher minimum wages for going no where retail and fast food jobs, that creates a false impression of an improved economy for a while, we need to focus on bringing manufacturing and skilled labor jobs back and lessen our love affair for unnecessary imported retail goods. 

I think the auto workers are a prime example of greed for more and more money and benefits in the work place.  With the help of the unions they eventually priced themselves out of the market and a job, when consumers finally told them their cheap made vehicles were overpriced and stopped buying them.

 You can keep raising wages, but the price of goods are going to rise right along with it, leaving you right back where you started, or worse.




_


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## Diwundrin (Nov 9, 2013)

OZ basic minimum wage is around $16 per hour.   At todays exchange rate that's  $15.0096 USD  ... but of course it's not that simple, it depends on age, casual or permanent employment etc so if you're obsessed ... http://mywage.org.au/main/salary/minimum-wage  ... gives the full table.

We have holiday, shift allowances and 'penalty' rates for weekend work etc added to that so it's not clear cut.
Other factors that come into it when making comparisons are:

Our workers in  do NOT expect or usually receive tips to bolster wages.  It's simply never been done here as a rule although is in some instances.
Our living costs are higher, petrol, rents etc.

Balancing that is reduced costs of 'utilities', especially heating costs as our winters aren't as harsh as in much of the US.
And, most importantly, employers are compelled to pay higher rates for shifts that go past 9-5 normal working time.  Overtime is paid at a higher rate.  Different pay levels apply to different public holidays (or did when I was working) Example Christmas was paid at a higher rate than a normal weekend.  It was a graded rate.

It's far too complicated for me to sort out but suffice to say I wouldn't want to try and pay off a house and raise a family on our basic wage either.  I can live on it, (I don't, but easily could) because I own my house, don't go out much, and have only the dog and myself to feed.  It would be no life for a younger person.

I worked my entire career at the basic minimum wage salary.  But the penalty rates, loadings, overtime rates, and working shifts no one else wanted, and never working the lower paid '9 to 5' shifts,  meant I effectively doubled my salary most years.

That seems to be the major problem in the US, lower paid workers have little option to improve their income.

Jackie, that article showing the attitude of employers is scary.  There's quite a bit of that here too but the greedier are held at bay a little easier by legislation here.  Theirs is a self defeating tactic as eventually no one will work for them and their business will crumble when they not only can't produce, but have no customers who can afford to buy their product.

I'm more right wing than many OZ members but even I have a very poor view of that rip 'em orf attitude in employers.
I like a nice balance in my World.  Pay for what you get, and be paid for what you're worth.

I'm an atheist yet base my view of keeping balance between employers and workers on 2 biblical tracts. (Even stopped clocks are right twice a day. 

 )

"Render under Caesar, that which is Caesars" ...  that one is for the Socialists who think the employer owes them more than they're worth.

.. and "Muzzle not the Ox which grinds the corn"  which is for the employer who wants to enslave his workforce on a pittance.

What is it in human nature that prevents us ever settling for 'enough'??  What makes us want it all?
Why do we continually risk losing it all by reaching further for that one extra buck?


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## Ozarkgal (Nov 9, 2013)

PHIL:





> And since the majority of these workers are limited to part-time they should perhaps devote their spare time to attempting to create an alternate income system through self-employment instead of watching trash TV and scheming how to feed off the government teat.



Oh yeah, and that too!


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## SifuPhil (Nov 9, 2013)

Some great responses here.

At first I was truly impressed by Oz's minimum wage, but then seeing what the rental costs, etc. are I understood that it's the phenomenon of the vicious circle made flesh all over again - higher wages = higher prices.

I wish that I could live the same quality of life that I did when I was in my 20's and 30's: fancy apartments and houses, fine cars, plenty of food and drink, money to burn. But now I'm sharing an apartment with a kind-hearted lady so that my rent and utilities are cut in half, I exist on bland, basic food and don't really "visit my custom" upon any retail stores. I buy cheap, live cheap and don't expect that to change anytime soon. 

It just Is.


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## Katybug (Nov 9, 2013)

_Di:  Our workers in  do NOT expect or usually receive tips to bolster wages.  It's simply never been done here as a rule although is in some instances.

_
When my 15 yr online friend from Sydney told me yrs ago Aussies rarely tip, I was amazed, then heard the whole story. As we all know, it's just not that way here.  Wait staff couldn't live w/o tips.

And my friend in Manhattan who worked in the same position I did here in the South, but made quadruple my earnings, had quadruple living expenses.


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## Warrigal (Nov 10, 2013)

Bee said:


> At todays rate of exchange 10US$ =GBP £ 6.28............minimum adult hourly rate from October in the UK rose to GBH£6.31.
> 
> So how much is Australias minimum wage????



We have a national minimum wage and separate amounts for people on apprenticeships

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/PAY/NATIONAL-MINIMUM-WAGE/pages/default.aspx

However we also have a system of enterprise agreements which tend to set higher pay levels and better conditions.


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## Diwundrin (Nov 10, 2013)

Katybug said:


> _Di:  Our workers in  do NOT expect or usually receive tips to bolster wages.  It's simply never been done here as a rule although is in some instances.
> 
> _
> When my 15 yr online friend from Sydney told me yrs ago Aussies rarely tip, I was amazed, then heard the whole story. As we all know, it's just not that way here.  Wait staff couldn't live w/o tips.
> ...



I know how vital tipping is to service industry workers there, it was just never part of our 'culture'.  It comes as a shock to the system for we travellers to be confronted by a sea of palms every time something is done that is taken for granted as part of a job here, but we got used to it.

Aussies have a really bad name over there as lousy tippers, but it's primarily because it's so alien to us and we're not sure how to handle it rather than being mean, we're not.  Haggling and tipping didn't form any part of business dealings, but that's sure changing and I'm learning to haggle as fast as I can.  

WE only failed to tip one waiter in the States, he was a rude pig who treated us with contempt and plonked our plates down like dog dishes.  Then he had the hide to write the amount of tip he wanted in big block letters on the check so we stupid Australians would get the message.  I'm afraid the 'message' we got cost him dearly.

When you think about it the tipping thing is what is letting employers off the hook of paying a decent wage isn't it?  The public are paying their staff for them.  ... then again, there's probably a far more complex set of reasons beneath that too... there usually is more to a story than first appears.  I'm still trying figure our system out, I'll leave you to ponder yours.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 10, 2013)

The biggest takers in our country are the rich, not the poor.  Corporate profits have quadrupled in the last 15 or so years, while the percentage of taxes they pay has been lowered by half.  This has happened because of legislation that has been bought and paid for by the same corporations.

I think that when the priorities of the country are for more and larger profits for the rich over the well being of the poor, we're in big trouble, minimum wage should increase.


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## rkunsaw (Nov 10, 2013)

Here is one effect of raising the minimum wags.

A company has 100 experienced employees earning $15 [er hour. This company also hires each year 100 young people with no experience to give them a chance to gain work experience. They are paid $7.50 per hour.

The company has a very good year and has enough money to give good pay raises to it's employees. The company decides it can afford to give a $2 an hour raise to it's experienced employees and $.50 an hour to the young workers. A good raise for all.

But our wise and wonderful government says we're raising the minimum wage from $7.50 to $10 per hour. Unlike the government this company can't print money so they have no choice. The inexperienced workers get a $2.50 per hour raise and the experienced workers get nothing.

Of course this is just one effect. Other companies may just quit hiring young workers, raise their prices or some combination. 

If a company relies heavily on young workers they may not be able to stay in business. 

While raising the minimum wage may sound good, it may not have a positive outcome.


I just read Jackie's post and I do agree that corporate executive pay is disgraceful, but raising the minimum wage won't change that. There should be a limit but I don't have an answer for that.


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## That Guy (Nov 10, 2013)




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## rkunsaw (Nov 10, 2013)

Bah! Humbug!


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## Sid (Nov 10, 2013)

A raise in minimum wage results in the worker paying more income tax. Who really benifits.

Lets get rid of the jealousy toward those who make more than "we" do for a minute, and see how many of them cleaned toilets or mucked out barns or washed dishes to get a start. Compare that number to the number of people who refuse to do those jobs.

If more government control is the answer, why have things kept declining in spite of all the regulations?
I have seen the minimum wage raised several times. I have yet to see a noticable improvement because of it.


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## That Guy (Nov 11, 2013)




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## Warrigal (Nov 11, 2013)

Some video on the subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017157566


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 8, 2013)

We can raise the minimum wage and have people be able to afford their weekly groceries, or we can keep it low and pay for their food stamps...I say raise the minimum wage.  The fat cats in the large corporations can afford to pay a decent wage, as Rkunsaw said, the CEO salaries are disgraceful. :dollar:


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## RedRibbons (Dec 8, 2013)

In the past I had to work for minimum wage. I am reading reports that fast food chain workers want 15 dollars an hour. You have to be kidding me. 15 dollars an hour for someone who has no college education, and who works making burgers and fries? If this happened, the cost of fast food would go over the roof, and those chains would soon go out of business. If people want to make 15 dollars an hour, then they need to further their education and get a job that pays that much. I am not trying to be heartless, just being a realist. As I said, I used to work for minimum wage myself, then I got an education and experience in order to make more money.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 8, 2013)

$15 an hour isn't much if you compare it to gas, food, rent costs, etc. in 2013.


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## RedRibbons (Dec 8, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> $15 an hour isn't much if you compare it to gas, food, rent costs, etc. in 2013.



That is not the point. Why does someone who makes burgers and fries believe they warrant making 15 dollars an hour? If that is logical, than someone who works in an office just typing on a computer should make at least 25 dollars an hour, and on and on. If one chooses to work at an unskilled job, then their wage should be minimal. I once did it, and I got payed what I deserved.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 8, 2013)

That's a point about whether a typist sitting on their bum all day is worth more than someone raising a sweat and multitasking as they do in fast food shops. I know which I'd prefer.

 I was always on basic wage scale but made more through shift and overtime penalties which are far more generous here than in the States and I sometimes doubled my yearly salary that way.  
Sometimes though I had to wonder why I was making more p.a. sitting on my bum or juggling paper ticker-tape than my male relatives who were working 7-4 M-F shifts on their feet in railway machine and repair shops. One was an accredited tradesman but still only got basic wage.   We all worked for the same Railway.

Maybe wages should be paid on effort rather than education only?  (I would now be writing this from a cardboard box in a park shelter.)


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## Bee (Dec 8, 2013)

I worked on the tills in a supermarket and was paid very slightly over the minimum wage, as far as I am concerned with what I had to put up with moaning miserable customers I definitely _*deserved*_ more than what I was paid, there were some shifts where I had to bite my tongue that much it was too sore to eat when I got home.

It is not everyone that is in a position to have a decent education.


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## Warrigal (Dec 8, 2013)

I think we are missing the point that if any worker is so poorly paid by their employer that they cannot provide for themselves then the state has to take up the slack. Otherwise people who are not lazy, and who are actually making money for their employers, must starve on the job. That is an intolerable situation IMO.


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## That Guy (Dec 9, 2013)




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## RedRibbons (Dec 9, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> That's a point about whether a typist sitting on their bum all day is worth more than someone raising a sweat and multitasking as they do in fast food shops. I know which I'd prefer.
> 
> I was always on basic wage scale but made more through shift and overtime penalties which are far more generous here than in the States and I sometimes doubled my yearly salary that way.
> Sometimes though I had to wonder why I was making more p.a. sitting on my bum or juggling paper ticker-tape than my male relatives who were working 7-4 M-F shifts on their feet in railway machine and repair shops. One was an accredited tradesman but still only got basic wage.   We all worked for the same Railway.
> ...



Sitting on your bum all day? WTF is that supposed to mean? I am a college graduate and I have worked hard all of my life to obtain what I have, and I resent your implication that I am was just sitting on my ass all day. If you are saying that someone who fries burgers for a living should be paid the same as an educated person, then oh well, I have nothing else to add.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Red, methinks you'd perhaps best read my post again, it had absolutely nothing to do with you.  

I was referring to my own career and I'm not ashamed to say that yes other than a few years standing and running between tickertape machines I did spend most of it on my bum whenever I could find a chair to sit on.  
I left school at  barely  15 with nothing more than a piece of paper that made it legal for me to do so, so education had little to do with it.  
All I had to know was how to type and read.  Which is about all a lot of jumped up office wallahs do to earn more than those who don't have the right connections and have to do manual work to get by.

You take things how you like and I don't mind a bit anyone disagreeing with me as long as they're disagreeing about the point of the argument and not going off half cocked about some imagined slight.  I don't indulge in snide or barbed posts on forums except in jest with other members I've known a long time and who understand that mode of humour.  Had that post been 'personal'  believe me I'd have made it a whole lot plainer than that.

So do you wanna start again and argue that someone who can fix a busted sewerage main is worth less per hour than some college grad who knows little more than how to add up the bill for the repairs?   Suit yourself but don't go looking for trouble where there isn't any, this isn't Facebook.


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## Bee (Dec 9, 2013)

Di in the years I have known you it has been very rare that we agree but on this occassion I do agree with you.

Like you I left school at barely 15 with _*no*_ education qualifications, I started work the following day at a shipping and forwarding agency, all I had to know was how to add figures up.

I started as the office junior runabout clerk and by the time I left 9 years later I was the office manageress and still with _*no*_ education qualifications just that ability to add figures............................Oh! and by the way I couldn't type, everything was handwritten


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Wonders will never cease eh Bee?  

 
Nice that we have something in common at least even if it's having made it through life without a college education. 

No idea how things were in the UK but leaving school at 15 and finding a job was the norm here, very few went on the extra 2 years to qualify for University.  Well, very few that I went to school with anyway.


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## Bee (Dec 9, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Wonders will never cease eh Bee?
> 
> 
> Nice that we have something in common at least even if it's having made it through life without a college education.
> ...




First time for everything Di.


Di it was the same in the U.K. as in Australia, very few I went to school with stayed on  for further education at either college or university and those that left at 15, leaving school and getting a job was the important thing.

We have both proved we could get on without a college education and there are many more like us.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2013)

The way I see it, a high wage comes with two things: the ability to perform a difficult task and the demand for that ability.

A brain surgeon is paid well, even though essentially all they do is stand around in a clean, comfortable environment and hold tiny little knives. A ditch-digger, on the other hand, works in a filthy, dangerous environment and is bone-tired at the end of the day from physical exertion. 

Why the disparity?



Because it's a lot harder to learn how to be a surgeon than a ditch-digger. You're paying for their education.
Because far fewer people are capable of being a surgeon. You're paying for their exclusivity.
Because you're paying for something that can save your life with the surgeon. Ditch-diggers don't carry that importance.
 
Almost anyone can learn to be a clerk or a ditch-digger. Few can stick with it long enough to receive their surgeon's ticket.

The only other ways to achieve a large income are to either join a (vanishing) union and stay on the job your entire life (also vanishing), or become self-employed without that salary ceiling and bust your butt making the business work. 

I have no problem with burger-people making $15/hr, as long as mechanics make $100/hr. But you aren't achieving anything with that kind of thinking. It's just increasing the vicious cycle. The problem isn't in the wages; it's in the falling worth of the dollar.

Fix THAT and your problems will be solved.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 9, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> I think we are missing the point that if any worker is so poorly paid by their employer that they cannot provide for themselves then the state has to take up the slack. Otherwise people who are not lazy, and who are actually making money for their employers, must starve on the job. That is an intolerable situation IMO.




Exactly!!


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## rkunsaw (Dec 9, 2013)

The minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It is a starting wage. A chance to earn some money will learning and getting experience.It is also an opportunity for one to prove they deserve a better position. Some people don't take advantage of the opportunity and stay at or near minimum wage levels. These are the people who cry the loudest to raise the minimum wage.

Comparatively, Social Security was never meant to be the only source of income for retired people. People had the opportunity during their working years to put away savings or work for a pension to have a secure living in their retirement. Some people do not take advantage of this opportunity and suffer because of it. 

Raising the minimum wage will hurt more people than it helps. It will especially hurt those who rely on a fixed income such as social security because they don't get a raise but have to pay the higher prices.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 9, 2013)

Past research on how business costs rise with minimum wage hikes indicates that a 10-percent minimum wage hike can be expected to produce a cost increase for the average business of less than one-tenth of one percent of their sales revenue. This cost figure includes three components. First, mandated raises: the raises employers must give their workers to meet the new wage floor. Second, “ripple-effect” raises: the raises employers give some workers to put their pay rates a bit above the new minimum in order to preserve the same wage hierarchy before and after minimum wage hike. And third, the higher payroll taxes employers must pay on their now-larger wage bill. If the average businesses wanted to completely cover the cost increase from a 10-percent minimum wage hike through higher prices, they would need to raise their prices by less than 0.1 percent.[1]A price increase of this size amounts to marking up a $100 price tag to $100.10.


http://truth-out.org/news/item/14050



......I think most Americans would be willing to pay an extra 2 cents for their burgers in order for workers to make a living wage.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

It's certainly a can of worms and we shouldn't be comparing ditch diggers with brain surgeons because there is a lot more than education separating them. Education alone won't enable a person without the inate penchant for medicine, plus the skill and mental/emotional stability to endure and excel in that high stress occupation to brain surgeon level.  There's more involved than education alone.  

Those big wheel corporate high rollers with the multi$$$ bonus perks didn't get there by education alone either.  There was fang and claw determination and something strange to do with lack of conscience awareness involved in most of them.  
But education did play a part, firstly for their networking contacts and a degree in business management never goes astray.  

But let's ask ourselves this:  How exactly has their education credentials benefited the overall Nation? (everybody's nation, same everywhere.)
 They don't pay enough tax and other than a very few they don't even produce anything tangible.
How many college grads are in IT and banking?  Neither grows a bean.  They're all busy as hell but they don't have a thing to show for it at the end of the day, not even dirty hands.  Just numbers on a screen which a spectacularly good solar flare or hacker, or a 'cyber war' could make vanish in a blink.

Who ya gonna call if the internet goes kablooey?  "Hey I'm hungry let's pay a  banker or nerd with degrees protruding from their earholes to deliver some numbers to crunch on."
Guess who's gonna be making the big dollars then?  Ditch diggers would come in right handy when it comes to planting time and crop pickers would be the new high $$p.hour workers.   
Sure it comes down to market and demand of the times, but more than that it comes down to talent.
So too is talent involved at almost all levels of work.  A good burger  flipper will make more for his employer than a sloppy lazy one and deserves to be paid a tad more accordingly.


That's where the problem occurs.  It's just too damned hard to  legislate pay rates at the ratio of how much each worker contributes to  the profit margin of their employer.  Too hard for me anyway, I'm out of that side of the argument.  Still have ammo for the education aspect though.

Maybe the education is too focused in one direction?  It seems that IT based jobs are the must haves and anyone not geared to that is being left behind and alienated as useless. 
I remember when schools here were divided up into specialised learning focus'.  Who would believe that the high school I attended was officially named "Burwood Girls Domestic High School."??  Boy didn't that get changed in the 60s.   .

 
The higher exam passers in primary school were sent to the posher Strathfield Girl's High School, which churned out the Uni types.  The also rans like me, who were doomed to be housewives, or typists or shopgirls while they awaited that 'happy' event,  went to Burwood.

The first year curriculum consisted of the normal basics of the 3Rs plus time spent in the specially built teaching laundry and kitchen.  We were put through cooking classes and taught how to make soap. We even had a room full of treadle sewing machines that we were put to work on to learn how to sew.  We were taught how to draft patterns and about fabrics etc because that's what good potential housewives had to know back in the 50s. 

What a waste of time that was, and thankfully gone, but those type of courses, better thought out and geared to today's needs, for the less academically inclined wouldn't go astray.  At least it gives the opportunity to get some education in something that potential ditch diggers can comprehend and use instead of dropping out and lining up for the dole as first resort. They don't need to taught the finer points of the stock market, they just need to be taught how to budget their lives around what they have, not what they think they might have been entitled to if the world wasn't so bloody unfair.

 I was taught touch typing at school.  I hated it, it was repetitive and boring beyond belief, but it got me a job in an office instead of sweeping the platforms.  It was all the extra 'education' I needed as I wasn't going to Uni so didn't need to know calculus. .
Touch typists were considered skilled back then. I had been taught something useful that kept me off the dole, out of a factory and off the marriage registry.  What skills are potential drop-outs being taught these days?  Higher education is becoming more and more elitist and more and more resented by those not qualified.  People who were once respected for their ability to attain higher learning are now seen as the enemy of those less luckily talented.  

The frenzy to make everyone appear equal has done more to split society than the old the system did.  It makes failure more devastating than it ever was and no education in how to handle not being talented enough is available.  The shortcomings we took for granted as part of what life hands us is now seen as a devastating shock to the  'self esteem' of many. They react by dropping education entirely and waging war, both passive and aggressive,  on those who have it.

Long bow sure, but hopefully you get the gist. It's past 2am and I'm outa gas so be kind. 



I'm all for private enterprise, don't get me wrong here, but seems to me that the latest round of financial misery  sprang from these highly educated  corporate clowns stuffing up royally.  Who the hell is educating them that lending more money than something is worth to people who can't pay it back is a sound plan?  
Who was running the business courses they graduated from that taught them that gaining a short term commission on selling a loan was worth dragging the world's economy down as long as they got their own stash to the Caymans in time?  Gordon Gekko??  

The all time biggest idiot I ever encountered in management wasn't one who had clawed his way up the ranks, it was a highly credentialed 'civil engineer', recruited from the the top percentile of Uni grads, who couldn't tie his bloody shoelaces and didn't know a freight wagon from a Volkswagen!

I think we need to define the values and types of education we are striving to inflict on everyone.

...aaaannnd I'm off to bed. fftobed:

.


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## Davey Jones (Dec 9, 2013)

Bill Maher
"If you want to get rich with a tax-free enterprise that sells nothing, start a church. "
I just LOVE that statement and its so true today.

How to Get Licensed & Certified to Preach the Gospel and if you call today we will include a gold plated frame,WAIT there is more for just $5 more we'll included the 2014 updated Bible.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 9, 2013)

> Bill Maher
> "If you want to get rich with a tax-free enterprise that sells nothing, start a church. "
> I just LOVE that statement and its so true today.
> 
> How to Get Licensed & Certified to Preach the Gospel and if you call  today we will include a gold plated frame,WAIT there is more for just  $5 more we'll included the 2014 updated Bible.



:rofl: I like it.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> That's a point about whether a typist sitting on their bum all day is worth more than someone raising a sweat and multitasking as they do in fast food shops. I know which I'd prefer.
> 
> I was always on basic wage scale but made more through shift and overtime penalties which are far more generous here than in the States and I sometimes doubled my yearly salary that way.
> Sometimes though I had to wonder why I was making more p.a. sitting on my bum or juggling paper ticker-tape than my male relatives who were working 7-4 M-F shifts on their feet in railway machine and repair shops. One was an accredited tradesman but still only got basic wage.   We all worked for the same Railway.
> ...



Well said Di, I agree!  When I started my last job which lasted over 30 years in 1976, my starting wage was $4.76 per hour.  I was happy to get the job, and worked as much overtime that I could to bring home more money.  

My job was blue collar, lots of physical work, heavy lifting, large machine operation, lab work, forklift, etc.  If there was overtime painting the walls and ceilings of the warehouse, cleaning toilets, scrubbing floors, etc., my name was on the list for the extra work.  And yes, I did work holidays when possible, and many of my coworkers looked forward to the opportunity to make a few extra bucks for their family needs.  These people were responsible Americans, who took care of their own, and wasn't after government handouts.  I EARNED my wage and would have like to have been paid a lot more, but you can wish in one hand...you know the saying. 

Unless my math is incorrect, my $4.76 per hour wage in 1976, would have equivalent buying power of $19.70 per hour in 2013.  So, let's not turn our nose up at the blue collar worker doing all the $hit jobs, and see that they get a wage they can survive on, without going on welfare.  Secretaries in the office were certainly no more intelligent than I was, nor did they have a better work ethic.  They would often complain about others not pulling their workload, and polishing their nails and taking long breaks on company time. http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2013)

That Guy said:


>



Good reality check here TG, thanks. :applause2:


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## rkunsaw (Dec 9, 2013)

The Federal minimum wage in1976 was $2.30 so you started out making more than twice the minimum wage. I think most jobs start above the minimum wage. Mostly it's the jobs that employ a lot of young workers with no experience who pay minimum wage.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for pointing that out Rkunsaw, so if it was $2.30, that would translate to $9.52 per hour in 2013.  I did have a union job, Teamsters.  But we have to also account for the highly inflated prices of everything in 2013, from basic food and goods, to utilities and services.


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## Bee (Dec 9, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> Mostly it's the jobs that employ a lot of young workers with no experience who pay minimum wage.



I don't know how it works in the U.S. rkunsaw but in the U.K. we have three tiers of minimum wage as of October this year the rates are..........................Adult rate (aged 21 and over): £6.31
18-20 year old rate: £5.03
16-17 year old rate: £3.72 


When I worked on the tills I thought it quite disgusting that a 16-17 year old could work on the tills and do the same job as myself, have the same responsibilities and yet be paid almost half to what I was paid, in my opinion they should have been paid the same for doing the same job.


In the U.K. a youngster is classed as an adult in everything except the minimum wage, again I find this quite disgusting, the government shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways.
In my opinion no matter what a persons age is they should be paid the same for doing the same job.
I also agree with Di and SeaBreeze.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 9, 2013)

> I don't know how it works in the U.S. rkunsaw but in the U.K. we have  three tiers of minimum wage as of October this year the rates  are..........................Adult rate (aged 21 and over): £6.31
> 18-20 year old rate: £5.03
> 16-17 year old rate: £3.72



If we had that system in the US the 16 and 17 year olds would have jobs and those 18 or over would be unemployed.


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## Ozarkgal (Dec 9, 2013)

I guess what I keep coming back to is that minimum wage was never meant to be a "living" wage.  It was for kids with summer or after school jobs, a starting wage for people to advance from, and a part time job to supplement incomes.  How we arrived at flipping burgers as a life long career and expecting to support a family on it speaks for a real breakdown of economic development, as well as people failing to take responsibility for their own lives. 

The other day on the news they were reporting on the demonstrations that were taking place to up the burger flippers wage to $15.00 an hour.  One young single woman that was interviewed, probably about 19 YOA had a small child under about 2 and was pregnant with another.  She was lamenting on how hard it was to make it on minimum wage....personal responsibility came to mind. 

I think we have become a nation of lazy, non motivated people who think the world owes them a living without investing any energy into improving their own lives.  There are so many things wrong on so many levels that have caused these people to arrive at this mindset, but one major element I blame is the education system. 

It was unthinkable when I was in school that you would advance to another grade without learning the basic requirement of each grade.  No one graduated without learning to read and write and do basic math.  Now learning these elementary skills seems to be the exception, and not the rule. 

Also, we need to change the school curriculum to focus on learning basic skills and understand that not all kids are college material and offer some classes that relates to life in the real world, such as trade, secretarial and accounting skills.  Skilled trades, such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics are at an all time shortage.  Why not get kids on the road to filling these jobs while they are in school. 

Instead college material kids are focused on, and the rest are shoveled to the way side to flounder around wondering what they want to be when they grow up.  In the meantime, they're 40 years old working a minimum wage at a fast food restaurant, or 19, and expecting their second kid.

Two major elements in turning this thing around is,people starting to accept personal responsibility and revamping the education system to relate to the working world.  It's not really about how much money that can be rung out of the minimum wage system.

:soap2:


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## Tom Young (Dec 9, 2013)

No words of wisdom here... Too old to initiate change, and too cynical to believe that anything will happen in the near future to alter the inequality.

Back in the 1950's, my dad , who was a textile loomfixer, was optimistic about the way science would change the way people lived.  He saw the introduction of some early robotics into the textile trade, which would reduce the number of workers needed to produce the product.  What he saw, was a work week that would go from 40 hours, to 20 hours... and promised that when that happened, we'd have more time to have fun together. 

Now we look at a similar situation, same, but different.  Now, when the fast food business is stressed by labor costs, instead of reducing the profit margins, the industry will replace the person at the counter with a touch screen, the cooks with pre-prepared food, and the cleanup to be done by the customer. 

 It's not what we'd like, but it is what it is...  The Occupy Wall Streeters, and the Progressive parties look for and dream about change.  Cnange coming from the power of the people, at the voting booth, and others by revolution... neither of which seems to be working.  Even the idea for a French Revolution style overhaul looks to be chancy, evidence the Syria "Spring".  

As we look at the low paying jobs and minimum wage at any level... the question eventually arises... What will the low paying jobs be? The natural thought would be field labor... and yet that is rapidly being replaced with automated fruit and vegetable "pickers", and the farm jobs that took took 15 people to accomplish are now being done by one person.  

If you thought that the future might lie in tech jobs... well, maybe for a few years... but if you're watching the Google "Hour of Code", you can see the labor pipeline being filled by  a work force that will exceed the future needs.  (A subject for another post). 

So, negative? yeah, I suppose.  While my bride and I are relatively "poor" by most wealth standards, its a bit like... "I got mine!" We're safe, and very happy... looking forward to the final 5 to 10 years... The fondest hope is that younger people will become more involved in the world that is shaping their future, and not rely on politicians and corporations for a fair shake.


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## Ozarkgal (Dec 9, 2013)

Tom Young





> So, negative? yeah, I suppose. While my bride and I are relatively "poor" by most wealth standards, its a bit like... "I got mine!" We're safe, and very happy... looking forward to the final 5 to 10 years... The fondest hope is that younger people will become more involved in the world that is shaping their future, and not rely on politicians and corporations for a fair shake.



My sentiments exactly.  I hope that happens, but don't see much hope for it.


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## Warrigal (Dec 9, 2013)

Posted just for the heck of it and now running away.

nthego: :badgirl:





On a more serious note, what of the saying "a fair day's pay for a fair day's work" or if we want to dip into the scriptures



> For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!" 1 Timothy 5:18



Exploitation is an ugly word and an even uglier practice, whether we are talking socialism, capitalism, bonded servitude or slavery.


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## Jillaroo (Dec 9, 2013)




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## Jackie22 (Dec 9, 2013)

Tom Young said:


> No words of wisdom here... Too old to initiate change, and too cynical to believe that anything will happen in the near future to alter the inequality.
> 
> Back in the 1950's, my dad , who was a textile loomfixer, was optimistic about the way science would change the way people lived.  He saw the introduction of some early robotics into the textile trade, which would reduce the number of workers needed to produce the product.  What he saw, was a work week that would go from 40 hours, to 20 hours... and promised that when that happened, we'd have more time to have fun together.
> 
> ...




I guess I'm one of those Progressives that hoping for change in the voting booth....

My hope is that young people and all people will become more aware of the political party that pushes for the advance of Corporate America and the wealthiest one percent, the party that pushes for trumped up wars and a huge military....this is the party that has fueled this obscene economic inequality that we now have....this is the party that wants to cut Social Security....this is the party that wants to cut medicare, cut medicaid, do away with ACA...The party that says NO, don't give poor people a $2 increase in wages....but YES, give the rich one percent another tax break.

This one percent now has one half of the wealth in this country.


The social programs in this country are but a drop in the ocean compared to what the government gives corporations and the rich in tax breaks, subsidies and deregulations.



The Republican philosophy of 'trickle down economics' ......to give the rich all the advantages so they'll become even richer and create all the jobs for us poor people, has been proven NOT TO WORK.


Forty percent of Americans now make less than 1968 minimum wage earners.

Thats FORTY PERCENT of Americans! 

I guess its a matter of opinion as to who is irresponsible.


http://www.nationofchange.org/40-percent-americans-now-make-less-1968-minimum-wage-1361362370


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

> When I started my last job which lasted over 30 years in 1976, my starting wage was $4.76 per hour
> ..........


In 1961 my starting wage was 8quid for a 40hour week.  
I paid nominal 'board' to Mum, clothed myself and still had something to bank out of that back then so times have changed. I wouldn't however have been able to rent my own accommodation and pay the accompanying utilities bills out of that so staying at home and covering food costs was the normal expectation of job starters back then.  The pay rates (and 'board')  increased with age from 15 to 21.

The best I can do with limited math skills and different currency  is that my starting wage was roughly the equivalent of $3.85US per hour in 2013.
It was a 'closed shop, union member only' workplace and not everyone on the outside did even that well.

Those figures are rubbery due to different currency and very different values.  My dad always referred to 5 shillings as a 'dollar' because that was what it was worth on the currency exchange rates, one US buck. Now our currencies are roughly level so if the US dollar back then was worth around  50c here....  (getting confused here) that kind of doubles the equivalent worth of that $3.85 doesn't it?  Gurus go for it, I give up.



There are some great, well thought out posts here.  We seem to have a good idea of what's wrong, and also that there seems little we can do about it.

It will all slip back into the default mode of human society eventually, Feudalism.  siiiiigh.  We'll have cyberlords instead of warlords wielding the power but little else will be different.  A minority elite being fed by the majority poorer classes.  Then comes revolution and so it goes..and goes...and goes.  We never get it right, we just change the costumes and technology never the underlying behaviours.

Whenever the population rises to a tipping point of a surplus of people to fill the necessary niches of employment we will get this same 'class' problem. 
'Robotic' technology is compounding the problem of finding work for the ditch diggers but the technology does nothing to stop the increasing number of diggers being produced.   All the PC phraseology won't make a tad of difference to that. Things are as they are, fancy names don't change them.  Having the rights to breed ourselves out of a job doesn't seem to have been such a great plan to me either. 
There is only a finite amount of the pie to be sliced, merely reducing the size of the piece the elite get won't solve it if we continue to produce more and more people demanding a share of it, eventually there'll only be a crumb for anyone to get.    siiiigh.  

Doomed, history to repeat we are. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...well that's a cheerful way to start the day.


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## Warrigal (Dec 9, 2013)

> "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
> But in ourselves, that we are
> underlings."
> Julius Caesar (I, ii, 140-141)



Just thought I'd throw some of The Bard for good luck.


On a related topic, hospitality businesses are demanding higher and higher qualifications for entry level staff. One of my granddaughters has just completed three and a half years of tertiary education- two years of TAFE to get an Advanced Diploma and one and a half years of university to convert it to a Bachelor Degree in Hotel Management and is still working as a casual with a large hotel chain.

 Her duties ? - setting up and working in the breakfast room, serving at functions and when otherwise not busy, checking the minibars. I've no idea what she earns but I doubt that it is all that much. For this she now has a student loan to pay off (called HECS in Oz). It makes no sense to me but this is not a girl who is lazy. She has always been a hard worker whether at school, in her fruit shop job, as an Avon rep or waiting tables at the local Italian restaurant. She has also learned Japanese. She is wasted where she is. 

Reflecting on the Shakespearean quote I hope she hands in her notice and takes off overseas but she's just become engaged so her wings have been rather clipped now.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

> Forty percent of Americans now make less than 1968 minimum wage earners.
> 
> Thats FORTY PERCENT of Americans!
> 
> I guess its a matter of opinion as to who is irresponsible.



That's a sobering figure Jackie.  
I'm totally oblivious of the tax rates in the States but remember some notable 'gaff' one of your politicians made about the number of people who never actually pay tax, it was a sobering figure too.

There may be more up to date sites but this one will do for my basic understanding and things seem to have gotten even worse since then.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_pay_taxes_each_year_in_the_US


> There were 131,113,969 returns filed in 2004. Of those who filed,  42,545,501 (32.4%) had zero tax liability. This is estimated to increase  to in excess of 40% in 2009
> A filer can represent an individual, a household or in some instances a  small business in the form of a proprietorship. *Contrary to a quip  previously posted that only the poor pay taxes, the top 1% in terms of  adjusted gross income (AGI) account for 39.9% of income tax collected in  2006. The top 25% (AGI > $64,702) account for 86.27% while the  bottom 50% of filers by income don't even add up to 3% of collections. *-  BB  From the Tax Foundation:
> In 2004, a record 42.5 million tax returns - one-third of all returns  filed - had no income tax liability because of the available credits and  deductions in the tax code. This is a 42 percent increase in the number  of zero-tax filers in just four years. In addition to these zero-tax  filers are the 15 million individuals or households who do not earn  enough to file a tax return. Overall, nearly 58 million taxable  households are outside of the income tax system. These findings raise  serious questions about the future of the U.S. income tax system. *Are  any future tax cuts, or even tax reforms, possible when the lion's share  of the tax burden is increasingly borne by a shrinking pool of  taxpayers who - at least on paper - appear to be "upper-income"? And  will the expanding pool of non-payers demand even higher income taxes? *
> 
> ...



Is it sheer coincidence that the percentage on the lowest wages is roughly the same percentage of those who never pay tax at all?
Maybe the deterioration in the health and welfare structure is following that percentage too?  No free lunches. Somebody has to pay for the goodies we've come to expect.  Making 1% pay more tax isn't going to be as beneficial as everybody paying their fair share.  

When a machine or a nation is getting top heavy and starting to wobble it seems time to look closely at the foundations and design of the structure.  Tax systems everywhere are a disgraceful hodge-podge of disparities and straight out lerks and could all do with a close looking at.  We here, rightly or wrongly, see the US citizens as getting all the breaks when it comes to income tax. e.g. The heavily subsidized price of gas there is ludicrous in comparison to world prices. Any suggestion of hiking tax on anything is met with howls from the populace who seem to think they're entitled to live cheaply and be paid expansively.  Errrr, things don't quite operate that way.

We get taxed on all levels of just about everything with some called levees and some things being taxed twice but it has kept our heads a little higher above water through the GFC than many.  Sure some of us don't qualify as having taxable income, but the taxes we pay on goods and services and levees on petrol etc still ensure that the revenue is rolling in to keep the national debt down to manageable level.
Things are starting to wobble here too but not by as much, yet.  

The expectation of good things happening with no input from the recipients can't end well.

There are no politics or 'isms' necessary to explain things.
There is no difference at all in the attitude of the 1% at the top and the 50% or so at the 'bottom'. 
They are both greedy to get as much as they can for as little effort as they can get it for and are willing to ignore the 'rights' of others in their quest to get it.  They are essentially the same people and the only separation is luck of the 'talent' draw.

Changing taxes and the system of how things are done would rip society as we know it apart, but it's heading that way anyhow.

I keep having these hallucinations of a world that runs on 'Ethical Capitalism'.... AZIF!  ... but it'd be nice wouldn't it? 




...is there any medication I can take for that?  It's a really frustrating condition.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> ........
> On a related topic, hospitality businesses are demanding higher and higher qualifications for entry level staff. One of my granddaughters has just completed three and a half years of tertiary education- two years of TAFE to get an Advanced Diploma and one and a half years of university to convert it to a Bachelor Degree in Hotel Management and is still working as a casual with a large hotel chain.
> 
> Her duties ? - setting up and working in the breakfast room, serving at functions and when otherwise not busy, checking the minibars. I've no idea what she earns but I doubt that it is all that much. For this she now has a student loan to pay off (called HECS in Oz). It makes no sense to me but this is not a girl who is lazy. She has always been a hard worker whether at school, in her fruit shop job, as an Avon rep or waiting tables at the local Italian restaurant. She has also learned Japanese. She is wasted where she is. ..............



That is a very good example of how we've come to view education as currency. 
 But as in life, there is little point in waving a $100 bill, or a PhD diploma around if there is nothing to buy with it.
They're just bits of paper.  Like those vitally important pieces of paper we saw floating in the breeze on 9/11.  If that view of their ultimate value  didn't give us the hint that there is more to life than diplomas and bottom lines I doubt anything ever will.

There was a glut of 'marine biologists' on the job market a decade or three ago, they were wrapping their lunches in their diplomas to take to their jobs driving trucks. 
 I think it was after Jaws was released and they all felt the career calling to make a living out of being Richard Dreyfuss or something.  These days they all wanna be Bill Gates.  For every IT billionaire there are thousands getting by at call centres with their diplomas safely in a frame on a wall in a rented bed-sit.  They wasted years of earning time getting edjakated to the same level of job that the drop-out dill down the road is now foreman of because he started sooner.  Gee, that's a great improvement to human societal development innit??

Equal opportunity to be educated to the level we are capable of is the best that society should need to offer us.  If we prove incapable of reaching the highest levels then options for more practical, and cheaper, education should be provided.  

Bring back the IQ tests, and more importantly, the Aptitude tests.  Mine taken at age 11 still holds true to this day, I never changed so education in anything else would have been totally wasted.

The current fad of preferencing exam passing talent over sheer common sense ability in the type of work on offer is approaching ridiculous. 
 The last person I'd hire to dig a ditch would be a puffed up diploma waving academic.  I want those hands on the shovel, not waving about to stress their importance to the world's well being.  I don't care if they can add their grocery bill I'd just want that ditch dug neatly and quickly, and I'd pay 'em extra for a good quick neat job.  What bout you?


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## Warrigal (Dec 9, 2013)

My point is that she could have entered this profession straight from school and trained on the job but the employers insist that they jump though all these educational hoops at their own and government expense, only to ignore them further down the track.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> My point is that she could have entered this profession straight from school and trained on the job but the employers insist that they jump though all these educational hoops at their own and government expense, only to ignore them further down the track.



Oh geeze, I keep getting myself in agreement with people lately, I must be doin' sumthin' wrong.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> There was a glut of 'marine biologists' on the job market a decade or three ago, they were wrapping their lunches in their diplomas to take to their jobs driving trucks.
> 
> I think it was after Jaws was released and they all felt the career calling to make a living out of being Richard Dreyfuss or something.  These days they all wanna be Bill Gates.  For every IT billionaire there are thousands getting by at call centres with their diplomas safely in a frame on a wall in a rented bed-sit.  They wasted years of earning time getting edjakated to the same level of job that the drop-out dill down the road is now foreman of because he started sooner.  Gee, that's a great improvement to human societal development innit??



Amen to that!

1976, I went to Florida Institute of Technology with a partial scholarship for Marine Biology. In my first semester I saw PhD holders working at the local burger places. The Institute was so over-enrolled that they took to giving us bogus tests so that they could fail us and kick us out. It had been a dream of mine to be a marine biologist since I was in grade school, so to see the actuality of the situation really hurt.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> I guess what I keep coming back to is that minimum wage was never meant to be a "living" wage.  It was for kids with summer or after school jobs, a starting wage for people to advance from, and a part time job to supplement incomes.  How we arrived at flipping burgers as a life long career and expecting to support a family on it speaks for a real breakdown of economic development, as well as people failing to take responsibility for their own lives.



I agree that economic development has gone backward in the US, instead of moving forward.  Maybe that's why folks like Romney wanted to be president of the United States, but wanted the benefit of keeping all his financial assets and interests elsewhere.  It's no wonder he didn't make it in the race.

 I'm sure that minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage years ago, when people could move up to better jobs to support themselves and their families.  But now, so the fat cats can get even fatter, they've moved a lot of businesses that should be thriving here, overseas.  The hell with the American people in the process...at least that's the way I see it.  Their profits come first, way before their loyalty to the United States of America...http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/15545869-why-us-businesses-are-moving-jobs-overseas


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

It's not wise to apply 'loyalty' to business SB, that's reserved for friends family and warfare.

The same thing is happening here, business are relocating to Asia in their droves.  It's not about loyalty it's about business acumen.  We simply can't compete with Asia's lower wages and lifestyle expectations.  They are catching up but it will be decades before their workforce becomes equally expensive as ours and it will be far too late for us to get back to 'the good ole days' levels we've enjoyed perhaps a tad too long.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2013)

Well yeah, but you would think if someone wants to be the president, they would have their priorities in order and put the country they want votes from first.  The average citizen can't be called lazy and blamed for the situation the country is in, if there's no decent jobs to be had, what are they to do?


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## Diwundrin (Dec 9, 2013)

That 'wanting to be President' should have had more input into the reasoning that's for sure. 



Of course not everyone's lazy, or anything else, there's a range of characters and motives beyond listing among any population. We have to generalise a lot just to be readable. 
 There are  so many interwoven problems with how the world ticks  now that it's impossible to single any issue out as being 'the magic bullet' to solve anything.    The more we try to fix things the more parts we find that don't fit the theory.

If we started really getting down into the intricacies it wouldn't fit a forum, it would rival War and Peace, per post!

We may have evolved technologically but boy we sure haven't simplified things for ourselves.  We've built a very high tech house of cards and we know how hard that is to keep standing when the cards begin to wobble.  I doesn't matter which particular card we steady there is always another one we didn't notice that will bring the whole thing down.  

Too many bright ideas looked good on paper only to provide us with hidden catches that we didn't see coming. We've continuously patched them up with more brilliant ideas that in turn needed patching and we're running out of options and the last thing we need is more complicated bright ideas and theories. All that'll fix it now is an axe.

That's why I prefer to play Devil's Advocate on all the 'fix it' theories.  It's sooooo easy to find some little thing that will throw any obvious solution off track.  Call me lazy.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 10, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> That's a sobering figure Jackie.
> I'm totally oblivious of the tax rates in the States but remember some notable 'gaff' one of your politicians made about the number of people who never actually pay tax, it was a sobering figure too.
> 
> There may be more up to date sites but this one will do for my basic understanding and things seem to have gotten even worse since then.
> ...



Oh, yes, I've heard all the 'notable gaffs' arguments...how the rich are victims of the moochers....as for the one about the poor not paying any taxes...maybe the 'job creators' should pay a living wage if they want them to pay taxes...also 'getting blood out of a turnip' comes to mind.

Oh...and good luck with that 'ethical capitalism'.


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## Moss (Dec 10, 2013)

Profit & Greed; we all end up paying for - Profit & Greed!    A vicious circle that's never ending.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 10, 2013)

> I'm sure that minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage years  ago, when people could move up to better jobs to support themselves and  their families.  But now, so the fat cats can get even fatter, they've  moved a lot of businesses that should be thriving here, overseas.  The  hell with the American people in the process...at least that's the way I  see it.  Their profits come first, way before their loyalty to the  United States of America...http://www.allvoices.com/contributed...-jobs-overseas



I totally agree about the businesses moving jobs overseas, SeaBreeze, but that's another story.

By raising the minimum wage it will make it even harder for businesses that stayed in this country to compete with those that moved out of the country for lower wages. If wages here are too high to keep jobs here how is raising them supposed to help? Seems to me you are wanting to punish businesses for staying here.That is a good way to send more jobs overseas.

Instead of punishing those businesses that stayed here why not punish those that left by taxing products they try to import into this country. This will  help businesses that are here better compete and may force those that left to bring jobs back.

Looking at the whole picture, raising the minimum wage seems to be about the worse thing we can do.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 10, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> I totally agree about the businesses moving jobs overseas, SeaBreeze, but that's another story.
> Instead of punishing those businesses that stayed here why not punish those that left by taxing products they try to import into this country. This will  help businesses that are here better compete and may force those that left to bring jobs back.



That is a good suggestion, punishing those who left and taxing products they try to import.  But is the government willing to do that, or is it in bed with these large corporations and profiting along with them, regardless of what country they operate in?  Somebody needs to step in and help those in America, both businesses and citizens, or this country will end up in the toilet...and that's a crying shame.   With all our money, knowledge and power, we should be moving forward and flourishing, instead of backsliding like losers.


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## That Guy (Dec 10, 2013)




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## RedRibbons (Dec 10, 2013)

rkunsaw said:


> The minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It is a starting wage. A chance to earn some money will learning and getting experience.It is also an opportunity for one to prove they deserve a better position. Some people don't take advantage of the opportunity and stay at or near minimum wage levels. These are the people who cry the loudest to raise the minimum wage.
> 
> Comparatively, Social Security was never meant to be the only source of income for retired people. People had the opportunity during their working years to put away savings or work for a pension to have a secure living in their retirement. Some people do not take advantage of this opportunity and suffer because of it.
> 
> Raising the minimum wage will hurt more people than it helps. It will especially hurt those who rely on a fixed income such as social security because they don't get a raise but have to pay the higher prices.



:thumbsup: Exactly!


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## RedRibbons (Dec 10, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Red, methinks you'd perhaps best read my post again, it had absolutely nothing to do with you.
> 
> I was referring to my own career and I'm not ashamed to say that yes other than a few years standing and running between tickertape machines I did spend most of it on my bum whenever I could find a chair to sit on.
> I left school at  barely  15 with nothing more than a piece of paper that made it legal for me to do so, so education had little to do with it.
> ...



I stand by what I said. And, what does Facebook have to do with the topic at hand?:blah:


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## GeorgiaXplant (Dec 10, 2013)

Katybug, sorry about your friend. It's a shame she wouldn't apply for UE because it's NOT welfare, and pride has nothing to do with it. It's funded by insurance paid for by the employer, and the employer's rate only increases if there are claims on it. What she really did was a big favor for her former employer.

Anyway, I know what you mean about the brutal work! And yes, it is lucrative if you can stand it. I'm 73 and working as a cleaning lady, but I only work 15-18 hours most weeks, not because there's no work--there's more than I could do even if I worked 40 hours--but because I just plain don't want to work any more than that. 

I feel sorry for the women who work for the cleaning services because they only get minimum wage. If they can stand it and hold out for a couple of years, they might--big might--get an increase of 25 or 50 cents/hour. Heck, even the supervisors for cleaning crews only make about $10/hour if they're lucky, and they only get to be supervisors if they've stuck it out with the same cleaning service for years.

I'm "lucky" in that I work so little that combined with my social security and pension my income still comes in just a bit below what's required to pay taxes on.

I heard on the news a few days ago that if McD's and other fast food places raised the minimum wage to $15/hour, they'd have to increase their prices by 20% to continue making the profits that they make now. 20%? Something from the dollar menu would go up to $1.20. Not a big deal to people who frequent the drive-thru!

For those who complain about the high cost to taxpayers of public assistance, well...better to pay more in wages than to COST more in taxes. JMHO!

When I started my working life, the minimum wage was $.75/hr unless you were under age 18 (I was paid $.25/hour), gas was $.09/gallon. Every time there's been a campaign to raise the minimum wage, there's been a great hue and cry that small businesses would go bankrupt, the sky would fall and we'd all go to hell in a hand basket. It didn't happen then and won't now. A rising tide floats all boats.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 10, 2013)

RedRibbons said:


> I stand by what I said. And, what does Facebook have to do with the topic at hand?:blah:



Go stand by anything you please Red, up to you.  I was just drawing the inference that Facebook is the more normal place to find posters who resort to 'blah blah' as a substitute for reasoned argument that's all.  No big deal.


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## RedRibbons (Dec 10, 2013)

Okie Dokie, whatever you say.layful:


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## Sid (Dec 10, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Oh geeze, I keep getting myself in agreement with people lately, I must be doin' sumthin' wrong.




      Maybe the others are getting smarter.


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## Warrigal (Dec 10, 2013)

Sid said:


> Maybe the others are getting smarter.



Oi! Watch it Sid. I represent that remark, you know.


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## RedRibbons (Dec 10, 2013)

Yep, we are getting smarter.....


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## RedRibbons (Dec 10, 2013)




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## Jackie22 (Dec 11, 2013)

GeorgiaXplant said:


> Katybug, sorry about your friend. It's a shame she wouldn't apply for UE because it's NOT welfare, and pride has nothing to do with it. It's funded by insurance paid for by the employer, and the employer's rate only increases if there are claims on it. What she really did was a big favor for her former employer.
> 
> Anyway, I know what you mean about the brutal work! And yes, it is lucrative if you can stand it. I'm 73 and working as a cleaning lady, but I only work 15-18 hours most weeks, not because there's no work--there's more than I could do even if I worked 40 hours--but because I just plain don't want to work any more than that.
> 
> ...




Nice post, GeorgiaXplant, I totally agree.  We are all paying for the public assistance that the minimum wage earners have to have just to make ends meet.  I had not heard about McDonalds raising their minimum wage to $15, if so they are to be commended, I did hear that they had advised their employees to hock their Christmas gifts for extra money...


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## GeorgiaXplant (Dec 11, 2013)

Jackie, as far as I know, McD's isn't raising their minimum wage...this was a news story on NPR "for instance"...I believe that it was McD's saying that it was a reason NOT to raise minimum wage.

And now I'm off to two cleaning lady gigs today...the job I made for myself when times were so bad that you couldn't BUY a job...and thank all that is holy it's far more than minimum wage and that it's something I really like to do!


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## Jackie22 (Dec 11, 2013)

GeorgiaXplant said:


> Jackie, as far as I know, McD's isn't raising their minimum wage...this was a news story on NPR "for instance"...I believe that it was McD's saying that it was a reason NOT to raise minimum wage.
> 
> And now I'm off to two cleaning lady gigs today...the job I made for myself when times were so bad that you couldn't BUY a job...and thank all that is holy it's far more than minimum wage and that it's something I really like to do!



Sorry, GeorgiaXplant, I misread your post.  Have a good day....


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## That Guy (Dec 11, 2013)

Landscaping with all that excess money is an art . . .


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 11, 2013)




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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

I've just found a link to the Australian National Award for the fast food industry, spelling out pay rates, allowances and other benefits. This would be the award that covers MacDonald's workers.

It might make interesting reading for US members. The lowest hourly rate for an adult is $17.98 plus 9% paid into a retirement fund, 20 days annual leave (4 weeks), 9 public holidays a year or time and a half if they work on a public holiday. 

The normal working week is 38 hours, after which overtime rates are paid at time and a half for the first two hours and double time after that. Penalty loadings apply to certain hours as follows



> *25.5              Penalty rates
> *
> *(a)              Evening work Monday to Friday*
> 
> ...



Juniors are paid a percentage of the adult wage, starting at 40% for under 16 up to 90% for 20 year olds.

As far as I know MacDonalds is very profitable and the food is still quite cheap and affordable.

https://extranet.deewr.gov.au/ccmsv...od Industry Award 2010&DOCUMENT_CODE=MA000003


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## SifuPhil (Dec 13, 2013)

Warri, that is just incomprehensible to me, and I'm sure a lot of other Americans as well. 

It would be interesting to know whether the Australian McDonald's have as many part-time jobs as the American versions, and whether all the benefits you've listed apply to part-timers as well.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 13, 2013)

Interesting, but you can't compare wages between countries because the cost of living is so different. The tiered system of wages is something we had for years where I worked. It didn't go by age but length of employment. 

How much is a big mac, large fries and a coke?
How much is a gallon of gas?
How much per pound for a T-bone steak?

We have to compare prices as well as wages to have a fair comparison.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 13, 2013)

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, arial, sans-serif]Corporate profits are at an all time high...and they continue to squeeze more out of their employees....putting profits way above the needs of employees.......capitalism will not work with these unbalanced practices.[/FONT]


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

There is that aspect of it Rky gas is a lot dearer but then it is everywhere other than the States.  T-bone steak was on special for $16.99 a kilo which is around $US8 per pound but ranges up to $US12 per pound at today's exchange rates.
Big Mac here =$US4.28,  nearly double.
Small Fries  =  $US1.70  
That is indicative of the higher wages at a guess.

Cars are dearer too, many things are but we have an advantage when it comes to climate that many in the States don't.  With a few exceptions most people in OZ can survive the winter with a radiator or a reverse cycle air-con.  We don't have the massive utility bills that it takes to run furnaces and oil heaters around the clock, we usually only use them at night.  Some wusses here do use them more but they aren't a necessity.  Frostbite is pretty rare here.
Is it easier to be poor in the Southern states than the Northern ones there?

I've just received my power bill (electricity which is the only power source I have for running everything from heating to hot water and cooking)   for the last 3 months, it equates to $US314  is that good or bad compared to yours?


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## rkunsaw (Dec 13, 2013)

Corporations don't always make big (or even small) profits. What I hate is that even when the company is losing money the top executives keep getting big raises and bonuses. 

But this has little to do with minimum wages. I stand by what I said about raising wages hurts more people than it helps.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Jackie22 said:


> Corporate profits are at an all time high...and they continue to squeeze more out of their employees....putting profits way above the needs of employees.......capitalism will not work with these unbalanced practices.



Jackie capitalism has been working perfectly well for some for a very long time with those unbalanced practices, many centuries in fact.  If it wasn't unbalanced it would be Socialism and that doesn't work all that wonderfully either.


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## TICA (Dec 13, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> I've just received my power bill (electricity which is the only power source I have for running everything from heating to hot water and cooking)   for the last 3 months, it equates to $US314  is that good or bad compared to yours?



I'm in Canada and have electric heat, water heater, dryer, dishwasher etc.   We can average our power bills so you pay the same every month and I have been paying $218.00 per month for 2013.  So that equates to approx $2,600 per year.  I also heat with wood as much as possible and that runs about 400 to $500 year.  January is the month they recalculate and I suspect the power bill will be going up although not by much.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 13, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> There is that aspect of it Rky gas is a lot dearer but then it is everywhere other than the States.  T-bone steak was on special for $16.99 a kilo which is around $US8 per pound but ranges up to $US12 per pound at today's exchange rates.
> Big Mac here =$US4.28,  nearly double.
> Small Fries  =  $US1.70
> That is indicative of the higher wages at a guess.
> ...



I have gas and electric for my house. Electric bill was $112 and gas was $25 for one month so that seems comparable to yours. It varies a lot by time of year.

I don't think it's really cheaper in the south. Air conditioners use more energy than heaters. 

It's obvious higher wages do drive up prices. When I was making less than $2 an hour I could afford to buy my first brand new car.I bought a 1972 Pontiac LeMans. It cost $3,750. Now we have higher wages and higher prices. What's hard to understand about that?


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## Jackie22 (Dec 13, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Jackie capitalism has been working perfectly well for some for a very long time with those unbalanced practices, many centuries in fact.  If it wasn't unbalanced it would be Socialism and that doesn't work all that wonderfully either.



Well, yeah, it does exist, thats for sure, I'm just saying that the imbalance is too great.....it works perfectly well for the 1% only, the 99% will rebel and well they should.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Yes have to agree the pendulum swings too far eventually and then things get interesting historical wise.


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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> Warri, that is just incomprehensible to me, and I'm sure a lot of other Americans as well.
> 
> It would be interesting to know whether the Australian McDonald's have as many part-time jobs as the American versions, and whether all the benefits you've listed apply to part-timers as well.



McDonalds would have a lot of part time casual junior employees who would be on a percentage of the adult wage. They also receive a 25% loading on the hourly rate in lieu of sick leave and annual leave but they are entitled to the 9% paid into a superannuation account of their choice. 

Here is a link to Maccas price list in Australia. A Big Mac is $3.20, a large Big Mac meal is $5.15.

http://www.mcdonalds.com.pk/products/view/menu-pricelist

Petrol is currently around $1.45 per litre which is roughly $5.50 per gallon
T bone steak at the supermarket is $18.00 per kilogram or $8.16 per pound.

Hope that helps.


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## Moss (Dec 13, 2013)

Wouldn't it be great to see the divide between those that have; and those that have very little, norrowed quite a bit?    Surfdom was banished centuries ago; why are we still trying to create a Peasant Culture for future societies?   The poor will revolt sooner or later.


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## That Guy (Dec 13, 2013)

I think back to early man, gathered around the biggest baddest guy with all the bananas, begging for a small taste . . .


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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

That Guy said:


> I think back to early man, gathered around the biggest baddest guy with all the bananas, begging for a small taste . . .



Is that your ideal?


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## That Guy (Dec 13, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> Is that your ideal?



Far from it.  Trying to understand greed and the lust for power.  Figuring it goes all the way back to the beginning...


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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

That Guy said:


> Far from it.  Trying to understand greed and the lust for power.  Figuring it goes all the way back to the beginning...


So does infanticide but we aim to do better over time. At least I hope so.


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## That Guy (Dec 13, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> So does infanticide but we aim to do better over time. At least I hope so.



I hope so, too.  But, sometimes . . . I wonder...


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> So does infanticide but we aim to do better over time. At least I hope so.



But Warri, doesn't it make you wonder *why* we never have 'done better' after all these thousands of generations?  Why we keep repeating the same historical cycles era after era?  Why we still do have infanticides, and greed and all the other little lunacies like wars and sport?  Why all civilizations seemed to eventually lapse into a form of feudalism as the last default resort? 

Ever wonder if you are looking at the problem from the wrong angle?  Instead of seeing the 'bloke with all the bananas' as the aberration, ever wonder if he is actually the human alpha norm?  The bloke that lured us out of the trees and invented work? 

 Wasn't it him that built society and civilization itself simply due to the fact that it wasn't much use being the strongest and leading and protecting  the pack unless he got more out of it than all the rapidly rotting bananas?  
Wasn't it was him who thought up the idea, or used the idea of some toady,  of making others do things for him to enhance his life by bartering their time and energy for bananas?.  Him that 'employed'  the lesser banana gatherers to grow or gather some other fruit for him to improve his menu?  Paid them bananas to build him a shelter with a view so he could move out of the stinky smokey cave and inspired others to see if they couldn't wrangle themselves better digs by also indulging in the banana commerce?  

Him that invented politics and henchmen to impose some rule of order on his growing society to protect his own interests by protecting his 'workforce'/tribe from other alphas?  It may sound as though the alpha/warlord/magnate is doing it all because he's just a bad bastard but without those bastards we'd still be gathering bananas and sharing them nicely among the few of us who hadn't been eaten by predators yet.

We are still primates. All higher primates have a 'feudal' system going for their mutual 'tribal' survival.  Alphas are the norm.  Even those gentle vegan Gorillas have a Silverback who imposes order on the group and offers protection.  It is the natural order of things.

Ever wonder if the purely philosophical notion of everyone playing nicely is the aberration?  The idea is purely in the imagination, it bears little connection to the realities of how nature and mental evolution has formed us.

Ever wonder why we really have wars?  From the little pondering I've done it seems to me that most of them are coming from 'ideas' of imposing the will of one tribe on another.  Whether it's religious will, or avarice for better lands, or for a source of more 'workers' it always come down to a couple of alphas with opposing ideas.  They always, always, have masses of willing followers to fight the battle for them.  Why do they follow?
Because it's the way we're built. We follow whoever we see as the alpha best suited to our own personal needs.
 Why did the Scorpion sting the Frog?  It's the nature of the beast.  

Don't kid yourself that we've progressed all that far from the trees.  We might have progressed from bananas to Ferraris but we'll still get road rage over the same incomprehensibly trivial kind of slight to their ego that Chimps fight over.  We still have among us relatively highly educated people who smother babies, and bash heads in with a rock in a fit of rage, just like Chimps do.  We still have all the levels of psyches and psychos that Chimps do in our groups, tribes, and Nations.

I think we should be organizing our civilization around our natures instead of constantly trying to impose those virtuous and higher minded ideals of the few upon the majority who are still operating as nature moulded them.  We are always having rebellions against those who are better at gathering bananas than us, why is that?  What's so special about bananas that keeps us repeating the cycle?  It's something very deep inside that all the bright ideas of enlightened philosophy have never succeeded in beating.  Maybe, especially now that there are so many of us, we need less enlightenment which seems to be just confusing us with notions of our all being equally useful to society.  The more rights we get the more deluded we become that than we deserve them and can handle them responsibly.

Some, perhaps even most, can, but there will always be evil bastards, psychos, baby smotherers, 'feral' football players and all the other losers among us.  So what are you going to do about them?  Cull them?  Who will decide on that?  Oh.  Some alpha with a fair bit of power would need to be around to do that wouldn't they?  Tch.  Can't have that, screams of fascism would ensue,  so guess we'll just have to forgive and offer understanding to psychos and misfits who make civilization less than blissful won't we?  It's harder than you think to buck nature.  Leopards=spots etc.  Despite all the wishful thinking and philosophies we are not, nor will ever be,  ALL alphas!  Most need someone to lead and protect them.  It was ever thus. 

I'm not proposing that we go deliberately 'feudal', just pointing out why I think we always seem to do so. Eventually.

Whoever said the best form of government is a benevolent dictator was dead right.  What we should perhaps be doing is making it worthwhile for the odd alpha who would qualify to take on the job.  Instead of respecting their talents,  we drag down and vilify those who have the knack of accumulating bananas and exercising an aura of power.  That doesn't make them share more bananas with us, that just makes them gather more henchmen around them to impose harder and far less benevolent rule on us to hold on to their bananas.  ... and so it goes, round 'n round 'n round.  Why would a good strong alpha type prefer to be in what we accept these days as politics when he can have a better life outside of it without the burden of protecting us?

We keep electing politicians who pretend to be 'enlightened' instead of those who have a sense of the realities of what is needed to run a smoother civilization.  As long as we remain so scared of 'authority' that we elect only weak people then we will have weak government and fragmented society.

Personally I won't be around long enough to care much, but it's interesting to watch people making the same mistakes over and over and then howling about it being someone else's fault.  Just sayin'.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 13, 2013)

I was going to respond, but Di said it far better than I could.


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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

No, Di, I don't wonder about all of that at all.

What I wonder about is why you always reduce human societies to such simple terms. Where in your world view do poets, explorers, scientists and philosophers fit in? Why shouldn't humans strive after justice and compassion for their neighbours rather than just for themselves? Where do we women fit in in this world of uber mensch?


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

See that's what I mean about being focused on and fiddling with the trimmings when the basic structure is operating on a different level.

The machinery of civilization will chug away whether it's polished shiny or the paint's peeling off it.  Just repainting it in fancy terms won't stop it rusting or change it's overall basic design.  Wishing a water pump would improve itself to start producing wine won't make it do so.  And slapping a fancier label on it won't do a thing except disappoint the label slapper. 



Poets, 'the yarts', philosophers, scientists all eat.  Who feeds them the bananas?  

They didn't call the 'dark ages' that for nuthin' you know.  That was when nobody in particular had enough bananas to support the luxury of patronage for poets, yartists philosophers and scientists.  They only thrive in good times.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 13, 2013)

Oh, just noticed that 'where do women fit..'   They fit wherever they can elbow enough room for themselves.  We've been around a long time, "we will survive".
We don't have to rule things to run things if you take my meaning.  
Do you have an inferiority complex or sumthin'?


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## Warrigal (Dec 13, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Oh, just noticed that 'where do women fit..'   They fit wherever they can elbow enough room for themselves.  We've been around a long time, "we will survive".
> We don't have to rule things to run things if you take my meaning.
> Do you have an inferiority complex or sumthin'?


Au contraire. I refuse to bend the knee or the neck to any man with delusions of grandeur.
I will co-operate with others for the common good any time though.

Our conversations remind me of an article I read recently where it was posited that political differences stem from differing moral views for which a person's idea of the ideal parenting style serves as a metaphor. 

Here's a sample of the logic



> In his book: _Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think_, (University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 2002), George Lakoff, linguist and cognitive scientist, tells us how _very_ different are conservatives from progressives, and how the major differences in their mindset affects their approach to politics. Because he studied US politics, he uses the term ‘liberal’ to describe ‘progressives’ (in the US, Democrats; in this country Labor and perhaps the Greens), and ‘conservative’ to describe conservatives (in the US, Republicans or their extreme variant, The Tea Party; in this country the Liberal National Party, the Coalition). Most of the quotes in this piece are from this book. I quote him extensively; my words could not do a better job than his.
> 
> His underlying thesis rests on a central metaphor: ‘Nation as Family’. He elaborates on this as follows:
> The Nation is a Family.
> ...


There is a lot more to this argument which you can read here: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/post/2013/12/08/The-myth-of-political-sameness.aspx . 

I find myself firmly in the nurturant parent camp and not just for my own family but for the nation as a whole and I relate strongly to the above liberal/progressive issues. I'm assuming, from our conversations, that the conservative issues listed above are very close to your personal issues. Whether they stem from the strict father model as your ideal metaphor is a moot point.

However, I am convinced that we, you and I,  will never see eye to eye on economic models because our personal positions are rooted in very different places - not in the head but deeper down in the heart. Not in the intellect but in our moral centres. That is not to say that one position is superior to the other but that they are very different and that much else stems from the difference.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 14, 2013)

Well to start with Warri, and as you'd only expect, I cry bullsh*t on that drivelling lefty article.

Firstly, if the biased terminology to describe the different types didn't tip you off then I'm not surprised that you fall for all that humanitarian crap.


Leftists are 'Progressives'???  Really? ...  just where did they progress us too?  Every time they've been in power we got deeper into debt and the only thing they grew were the welfare queues.  All they ever produced in the last few decades were grandiose ideas that never bore fruit. 
Is gutting the Nation's coffers to endow society's losers with imagined self esteem seen as 'progressive'?  Not by me, sorry.

Up until the 70s the Labor Party stood as a bastion for the *working *classes.  They did get things done and built.  They *were* progressive. I voted for them then.   

But  they were white-anted by the Union thugs and extortionists who were essentially running the country through their political wing.  Any of the old style Labor politicians with a shred of principles,  honesty,   dignity and a true dedication to their original tenets of worker representation drifted away. 

 All the Labor Party is today is a bunch of self serving carpetbagger ex Unionists who espouse splinter groups and welfare addicts as their voting bloc because their policies haven't left enough downtrodden workers to make up their numbers.  The unskilled workers jobs are leaving OZ with their ex employers due to decades of demonizing business owners to win votes from the 'gimme mine' voters.

The Left of politics no longer represents the workers, they represent the bludgers and losers.  The workers don't fare nearly so well when it comes to handouts as do the trendy splinter causes and doloes.  How is that ethical in your eyes??  Do you consider that workers are less entitled to representation than losers?  Because that's how I see the 'Progressive' Left of politics now.

He, and you, have to be kidding at simplifying it to Mum and Dad issues. 
Can you honestly tell me that this PC 'nurturist' parenting and  politically PC fad has produced better balanced, ethically superior, less  downright narcissistic citizens who are better behaved in public and  business life than our generation was??  Have you seen an optometrist  lately?



 No, I didn't have a strict father, I had a profligate one who died owing even me money because he never did quite comprehend the meaning of budget.  No he wasn't 'socially aware', he didn't give a stuff about anyone but himself except for the minimum compulsory amount of tosses he had to give to his family to keep Mum from clearing out and leaving him with no housekeeper. 

He was a rabid lefty Labor supporter and Unionist to his bone marrow.  But only verbally, he didn't 'do' picket lines, just voting Labor like a robot was considered enough contribution to the cause for him.
Mum was strict about keeping order, but never political, nor did she care much about anything at all beyond her own little world. 

 So no 'strict' parenting or the drumming in of Conservative values brought me to the reasoned decision, midway through life,  that a certain amount of conservatism just plain makes more sense than airy fairy philosophies of Utopia gained, according to Labor pollies, through a carin' sharin' attitude which was becoming ever less apparent in Unionists in particular and the population in general. Union leaders, and Labor politicians were by then a dog eat dog lot and more power hungry than any mangy manager I'd ever encountered.

If that was to be the face of enlightened Labor thinking I no longer felt it was for me. It was no longer representing my interests as a worker at all.    I became a lite rite conservative despite my upbringing, not because of it!

If anything it's been more evident to me that Labor voters are more likely to vote according to family tradition and influence  than Conservative ones.

So the author of that article carries about as much weight with his opinion as my ramblings do... zero! 
 It's just his opinion.  You only like it because it mirrors yours, not that it teaches anything useful. 
 We're all prone to do that so no hard feelings.



I know that the Libs/Conservatives are a money and power grasping mob too, I'm not stupid, totally, I just prefer that they are at least up front about it.  They don't pretend to be representing the people they are ripping off.  
I'd prefer to be robbed by a bandit wearing a balaclava than by a lying con man.  Maybe that's just a strange quirk but I resent being played for a gullible fool a lot more than being just plain robbed. 
I'd also prefer someone from a party formed from people who know how to make a buck to looking after my tax contributions.  You don't hire a banner carrying protestor to manage your finances, you hire an accountant.

 I also believe that people are worth no more than they produce or contribute.  And no, I don't believe that we are all equally entitled to diddly squat.  
The most we need have the right to expect from Government is the fair allocation of revenue stemming from fairly imposed taxes and that we  not to be allowed to starve through no fault of our own,  and even Conservative Governments do that much for their population.  

Equal opportunity is laudable... equal expectations are not.

If Labor was so dedicated to the workers  then why did they tax them harder than they did the magnates with whom their Unionist puppeteers had done deals to hire their workers exclusively so they'd reap more dues from them?

Thanks to the growing ratio on welfare the workers are no longer the poor, they are the middle class, or PCly  'middle income earners' now.  They are the ones taxed highest to carry the rest.
  Who is the 'socially aware' left and it's 'progressive' Labor Party representing again??  They, and I appear to have forgotten.  Fortunately the workers they betrayed didn't forget and tossed them out on their backsides.

If you come back with those recent poll figures showing Labor would win just 13 weeks after they were turfed then perhaps it merely proves that  more people are more clueless than even I suspected.  Every single issue they now object to was the fallout of the Government they threw out, not of the one they voted in.

aaaaghhhhh!


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## Warrigal (Dec 14, 2013)

Come in Spinner.





Gotcha good this time. 
Consider your buttons pushed.
How's the blood pressure?

PS I don't vote Labor. 
Too right wing for my liking.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 14, 2013)

Warri, maaaaate, you know I NLACGB !   Thanks for the opportunity to vent.


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## Bee (Dec 14, 2013)

Moss said:


> Wouldn't it be great to see the divide between those that have; and those that have very little, norrowed quite a bit?    Surfdom was banished centuries ago; why are we still trying to create a Peasant Culture for future societies?   The poor will revolt sooner or later.




Bring on the revolution.


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## Warrigal (Dec 15, 2013)

I've just found a link that compares the price of a Big Mac to the minimum wage of that particular country. From this the time a worker on min wage must toil to buy a Big Mac provides a comparison of the countries.

Surprise - The Lucky Country (that's OZ) comes out on top. We only have to work for 18 minutes to afford a BM but in the home of Maccas you Americans must toil for 25 minutes for your burger. In India it take about 6 hours work to earn a BM.

Read it and weep : http://www.businessinsider.com.au/unveiling-the-big-mac-minimum-wage-index-2013-8


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## Diwundrin (Dec 15, 2013)

Now that I've recovered from learning that a Big Mac is the benchmark indication of what work is worth,  

....that's an interesting link.


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## Katybug (Dec 15, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> I've just found a link that compares the price of a Big Mac to the minimum wage of that particular country. From this the time a worker on min wage must toil to buy a Big Mac provides a comparison of the countries.
> 
> Surprise - The Lucky Country (that's OZ) comes out on top. We only have to work for 18 minutes to afford a BM but in the home of Maccas you Americans must toil for 25 minutes for your burger. In India it take about 6 hours work to earn a BM.
> 
> Read it and weep : http://www.businessinsider.com.au/unveiling-the-big-mac-minimum-wage-index-2013-8



Amazing....and I've never had one. but it was a very interesting comparison.  I don't eat chain junk food, other than an occasional Wendy's when I'm on the road and little else offered.  But I am a junk food queen with authentic Italian Subs (from almost anywhere other than Subway which is mostly bread and little inside,) Mom & Pop's hand formed burgers, fries, chopped pork BBQ/southern style, fried chicken wings, tuna salad sandwiches, BLT's....the list is almost endless..just not McDonalds.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 15, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Now that I've recovered from learning that a Big Mac is the benchmark indication of what work is worth,
> 
> ....that's an interesting link.



I've given up buying silver and gold as an investment.

I'm now bullish on Chicken McNuggets.


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## Diwundrin (Dec 15, 2013)

Limited trading potential in those Phil, they'd need to be kept as frozen assets.    boomtish.



Good news for solving that education issue that is making employee worth so complex.  Everyone will get a diploma for something and the Government will then cover the costs of retraining them for more suitable jobs as circumstances change.

The retraining course will consist or one hour of intense focus on delivering the line  "do you want fries with that?"

It's so simple I can't believe no one ever thought of it earlier.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 15, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> Limited trading potential in those Phil, they'd need to be kept as frozen assets.    boomtish.



Ohhhh. :cower:



> Good news for solving that education issue that is making employee worth so complex.  Everyone will get a diploma for something and the Government will then cover the costs of retraining them for more suitable jobs as circumstances change.
> 
> The retraining course will consist or one hour of intense focus on delivering the line  "do you want fries with that?"
> 
> It's so simple I can't believe no one ever thought of it earlier.



Hey, don't be so dismissive of Starchy Tuberous Extrusion Technicians - theirs is a noble calling! It takes MANY years to develop the skills and analytical abilities needed to lift the little basket when the bell goes "_ding_" ...


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