# $15 an hour isn’t enough: U.S. workers need a living wage



## Robert59 (Sep 6, 2021)

As we mark Labor Day, an occasion that celebrates workers, the country is in the throes of what some consider a labor shortage. After widespread recognition of the risks frontline workers undertake and the protections they need, companies in traditionally low-wage industries are struggling to hire, and workers are leaving jobs at record rates. 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/15-hour-isn-t-enough-130000722.html


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## Buckeye (Sep 7, 2021)

lol - stopped at the local Taco Bell a couple of days ago.  Trust me, no one there was worth $15/hr.  

And as a reference, average Social Security payments in 2020 were just a little over $18,000, which works out to a little less than $9/hr based on a 40 hour week.


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## Sliverfox (Sep 7, 2021)

Sorry , but  learn to live with in your needs. 

Higher  wages mean higher  prices all around.


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## caroln (Sep 7, 2021)

I know people should try to live within their means, but I think it's so incredibly sad that someone works hard for 50 years and makes a decent living, retires, and find themselves living on the poverty level.  Suddenly a broken refrigerator or car is a major problem, or they can't even afford a vacation after working all their lives.  Not everyone is able to provide themselves with a huge retirement nest egg or 401K.  And even if they do have a decent amount in savings, one operation or illness can wipe it out.  I have no solutions, just a great deal of sympathy for what a lot of seniors are going through financially.
(I apologize...I just realized this post is entirely off topic!)


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## Sliverfox (Sep 7, 2021)

Perhaps hard work, planning  ahead has become a thing of the past?

Live  for the  present because  we are all  going to die..just  don't know when?


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## Tom 86 (Sep 7, 2021)

Sliverfox said:


> Perhaps hard work, planning  ahead has become a thing of the past?
> 
> Live  for the  present because  we are all  going to die..just  don't know when?


True.  I know people both the man & woman works 2 jobs.  They can't afford kids.  They live in an average house nothing extra, drive two old 2005 vehicles.  The problem is their mortgage & house & medical insurance, plus car insurance, gas & utilities,  So they can not save anything for retirement.


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## senior chef (Sep 7, 2021)

I suppose it all depends upon the job.  Take "fast food" restaurants for one example.  Originally, they were designed to employ teenagers who usually lived at home. Minimum wage, in those cases worked out just fine. However, over the years, something changed, and older folks began to seek employment at "fast food" restaurants. Obviously, older persons, unlike teenagers, had a need to completely support themselves. 
Clearly, the higher the wages, the higher the prices of what the business is selling. It just keeps spiraling out of control.
IMO, the "problem" is not so much that $15/hour is too low. The problem is that the population is expanding at an outstanding rate. The more people, the greater the demand for housing. The greater the demand, the greater the cost of housing. Once, not too long ago, rent for a 1 bedroom apt was $390/month. Now, at least here in southern California, a 1 bedroom apt is going for $1,200 month. I for see  a time in the not too distant future when $ 25/hour will be considered as "poverty level".


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

$





Robert59 said:


> As we mark Labor Day, an occasion that celebrates workers, the country is in the throes of what some consider a labor shortage. After widespread recognition of the risks frontline workers undertake and the protections they need, companies in traditionally low-wage industries are struggling to hire, and workers are leaving jobs at record rates.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/15-hour-isn-t-enough-130000722.html



This is an absolutely absurd proposal.  If a store is supposed to pay a grocery bagger a "living wage" of $35,000 per year, then it will respond logically by eliminating grocery baggers.  It will either make cashiers help with bagging (slowing down service) or push shoppers to check out and bag their own groceries.  The same process will happen in industry after industry.  We won't have to worry about labor shortages as unemployment will soar and there will be fierce competition for any "living wage" job.  That will hurt poorer and less well-educated people, but folks who come up with idiotic ideas like this don't think that far ahead.[/QUOTE]


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## Devi (Sep 7, 2021)

What @senior chef said. In addition, forcing a too-high minimum wage will drive many companies out of business.  How much exactly are you willing to pay for a fast food hamburger?


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## Don M. (Sep 7, 2021)

Sliverfox said:


> Sorry , but  learn to live with in your needs.
> 
> Quite often, when in line at the grocery store, I find some fairly young person ahead of me paying for their groceries with their SNAP card.  I also see them fiddling with their "smart phone", and notice several tattoo's on their arms.  Those people need to re-think their "priorities".


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

So I looked up the Living Wage Calculator mentioned in the article.  It says that a family of four (one working spouse, two children) should get a "living wage" of about $68,000 for the wage earner if they live in the Newport News/Norfolk Virginia area (down the road from me).


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## Sliverfox (Sep 7, 2021)

This area of PA has a history of  hard work.
I suggest IF you can  find this book, *STONY BATTER *by Zoda Elizabeth Anderson read it.

I know  there are plenty of books about the    discovering  crude oil in  this area.

Just suggesting   reading up on  where we have lived all our lives,,,,  might help you to understand  what  / why I type on here.


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 7, 2021)

When I started working as an office clerk in 1974 the hourly rate was $3.60.  That was not enough to live on but I didn’t have much to offer.  

Over the years I took part time jobs, attended night school, and gained some experience.  Eventually as I had more to offer my employer my income increased to a comfortable level.

A company paying a living wage is only one half of the bargain.  The other half of the bargain is a workforce with something of value to offer.

IMO a young unskilled worker can lift themselves out of poverty with a good attitude, education, experience and thrift.

If our government could end poverty by guaranteeing a minimum or living wage it would have been done years ago when the minimum wage was first introduced.

IMO it’s better to let the market determine a fair wage and cost of living.


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## Devi (Sep 7, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> A company paying a living wage is only one half of the bargain.  The other half of the bargain is a workforce with something of value to offer.
> 
> IMO it’s better to let the market determine a fair wage.


Well stated, @Aunt Bea! One has to acquire skills that are worth it to companies that would be paying for them. Exactly.


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## Nathan (Sep 7, 2021)

It is evident that the harder the labor  the less *equity* a worker receives for their efforts.  

Average fast food worker is paid $7.25 /hr., gets scheduled less than 30 hours a week, so employer escapes providing sick time, hoilday/vacation time.
Works like crazy to keep burgers and fries coming; is on their feet all day. 

Average CEO(in L.A.) makes over $200,000 per year, plus stock options. Has an army of subordinates to take care of virtually every aspect of running a corporation. Any physical labor generally entails getting in/out of golf carts, being seated in meetings etc.


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## helenbacque (Sep 7, 2021)

Wage disparity is the issue.  There are only so many pieces in any pie.  If the CEOs, top management and stock holders get 90% of the pie, the remaining 10% must be cut in very small pieces.


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> It is evident that the harder the labor  the less *equity* a worker receives for their efforts.
> 
> Average fast food worker is paid $7.25 /hr., gets scheduled less than 30 hours a week, so employer escapes providing sick time, hoilday/vacation time.
> Works like crazy to keep burgers and fries coming; is on their feet all day.
> ...


One accepts what is there.  One works to qualify themselves for greater pay.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> It is evident that the harder the labor  the less *equity* a worker receives for their efforts.
> 
> Average fast food worker is paid $7.25 /hr., gets scheduled less than 30 hours a week, so employer escapes providing sick time, hoilday/vacation time.
> Works like crazy to keep burgers and fries coming; is on their feet all day.
> ...



The average fast food worker is paid about $12 per hour and has no skills to speak of.  The CEOs I've worked with make much more than $200,000 a year.   They work 80 plus hours a week and travel all the time.  If they create value for their shareholders, they can make hundreds of millions of dollars.  Is that fair? Equitable?  Probably not, but that's the way it is right now.


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## MarciKS (Sep 7, 2021)

Sliverfox said:


> Sorry , but  learn to live with in your needs.
> 
> Higher  wages mean higher  prices all around.


That's easy to say but when you're the only bread winner and you're not getting enough to cover the bills, the rent, the groceries and your meds plus keeping up with ins pmts and car repairs and trying to keep clothes on your back it's impossible at $9 an hr. You're then left to decide what you can live without. When you have to decide between food and health ins. there's a problem. At $15 I can manage but if something serious happens I'm done for. So no it's not enough in some cases anymore. Things are no longer a nickel. When you're paying $5 for a package of cheese there's choices that hafta be made. There's no financial aid to help out.


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## Oris Borloff (Sep 7, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> The average fast food worker is paid about $12 per hour and has no skills to speak of.  The CEOs I've worked with make much more than $200,000 a year.   They work 80 plus hours a week and travel all the time.  If they create value for their shareholders, they can make hundreds of millions of dollars.  Is that fair? Equitable?  Probably not, but that's the way it is right now.


Let's not forget, that sometimes CEO's dilute shareholder value.  When the company isn't performing, or worse,  and the CEO's are still being rewarded with absurd bonuses well above their stated salaries.


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## hollydolly (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> It is evident that the harder the labor  the less *equity* a worker receives for their efforts.
> 
> Average fast food worker is paid $7.25 /hr., gets scheduled less than 30 hours a week, so employer escapes providing sick time, hoilday/vacation time.
> *Works like crazy to keep burgers and fries coming; is on their feet all day.
> ...


I don't want to be  deliberately pedantic... but 30 hours a week..they're not on their feet all day@5 hours a day... they can certainly have time to work another job. Should they have to ?.. that's another question, but if someone is willing to work part-time, for a minimum wage , and they have to provide for themselves or others they should be at least willing to work another part-time job to make up  a full time wage.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Let's not forget, that sometimes CEO's dilute shareholder value.  When the company isn't performing, or worse,  and the CEO's are still being rewarded with absurd bonuses well above their stated salaries.



Of course.  Many CEOs are overpaid buffoons -- look at the career of Marissa Mayer at Yahoo or of Jeff Imhoff at GE.  The good ones are worth a lot, though.  

It's also true that CEO pay has also become bloated.  One of my first jobs was at a big New York bank.  The CEO made about $350,000 a year (this was in the late 70s).  Now the CEO of a big New York bank makes $20 million a year or more.  Compensation is way out of whack, but I don't have a workable solution to that problem. 

I'm all in favor of measures to help people at the bottom of the wage scale and take more from the people at the top.  Maybe we could learn something from Germany, which has both low unemployment and a strong social safety net.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> I don't want to be  deliberately pedantic... but 30 hours a week..they're not on their feet all day@5 hours a day... they can certainly have time to work another job. Should they have to ?.. that's another question, but if someone is willing to work part-time, for a minimum wage , and they have to provide for themselves or others they should be at least willing to work another part-time job to make up  a full time wage.




I have a first-person insight into this.  My daughter has learning disabilities and she's very limited in terms of the types of jobs she can do.  She works at a grocery store about 35 hours a week for $11 per hour.  She picks up some extra money walking dogs.  She gets a tiny disability check (maybe 175 per month)  so altogether she receives about $2000 per month.   She lives with a friend and is very independent.  We help her out from time to time, but not that much.  

If the government told her employer (a family-run store) that they had to pay her a "living wage", then the employer would almost certainly let her go.  Who would that help, exactly?


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## Oris Borloff (Sep 7, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Of course.  Many CEOs are overpaid buffoons -- look at the career of Marissa Mayer at Yahoo or of Jeff Imhoff at GE.  The good ones are worth a lot, though.
> 
> It's also true that CEO pay has also become bloated.  One of my first jobs was at a big New York bank.  The CEO made about $350,000 a year (this was in the late 70s).  Now the CEO of a big New York bank makes $20 million a year or more.  Compensation is way out of whack, but I don't have a workable solution to that problem.
> 
> I'm all in favor of measures to help people at the bottom of the wage scale and take more from the people at the top.  Maybe we could learn something from Germany, which has both low unemployment and a strong social safety net.


I didn't mean to direct that toward you, if you took it that way. Sorry.  I wasn't challenging anything you said I was quoting your post to save typing a set up to what I wanted to say.  I should have just quoted "create shareholder value" part.  I don't consider myself a particularly effective communicator when I write.


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## Don M. (Sep 7, 2021)

CEO's, in many cases, Are grossly overpaid.   However, if you research the highest paying jobs in the U.S., virtually Every source that tracks this data shows that members of our "for profit" health care system rank consistently in the top 10, with Anesthesiologists being the highest paid profession in the nation.  CEO's, depending upon which report, rank somewhere between the 8th to 12th highest average wage.  

https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/top-highest-paying-jobs/

We, in the U.S. pay twice as much for medical care as most other nations....yet, rank way down the list in terms of quality/value of care.  Most reports put the U.S. at, or around  the 37th best system in the world....with most of the Better nations having some form of "socialized" care.  

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world 

So long as we have medical and political systems that consider the "almighty dollar" as their highest priority, things will only continue to slide downhill, until half our people are living at substandard levels.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> I didn't mean to direct that toward you, if you took it that way. Sorry.  I wasn't challenging anything you said I was quoting your post to save typing a set up to what I wanted to say.  I should have just quoted "create shareholder value" part.  I don't consider myself a particularly effective communicator when I write.




No offense meant or taken.  I didn't want you to think I'm in favor of overpaid, greedy CEOs, of whom there are many.


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## Nathan (Sep 7, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> It's also true that CEO pay has also become bloated.  One of my first jobs was at a big New York bank.  The CEO made about $350,000 a year (this was in the late 70s).  Now the CEO of a big New York bank makes $20 million a year or more.  Compensation is way out of whack, but I don't have a workable solution to that problem.


As I understand, the CEO's compensation and retention are heavily dependent on the vote of the stockholders, who quite understandably want to maximize the return on their investment.  So, the people actually doing the work(the workers) get their "returns" minimized  as a result.  



JimBob1952 said:


> I'm all in favor of measures to help people at the bottom of the wage scale and take more from the people at the top.  Maybe we could learn something from Germany, which has both low unemployment and a strong social safety net.



I'd be interested in hearing how that might play in U.S. economy, I suspect there would be enormous push-back from money-centric political powers-that-be.

Japanese business has historically regarded their employees as an important asset of the organization, whereas U.S. business tends to treat employees as a *liability*.


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## horseless carriage (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Japanese business has historically regarded their employees as an important asset of the organization, whereas U.S. business tends to treat employees as a *liability*.


Brexit, the pandemic and other factors are causing employers in the UK to have a massive rethink about their workforce. Our supermarkets simply cannot get enough truck drivers. The cost of getting the necessary licence runs into many thousands of pounds, if the pay scale is poor at the end of all that training and investment, you are going to have a shortage of drivers. Which is exactly what's happened. Our supermarkets have had to dispose of millions & millions of pound's worth of perishable goods because of the truck driver shortage. As a consequence, those truckers are now earning in excess of fifty grand, yet supermarket prices haven't risen. We seem to be gravitating away from the US style of employees being a liability, towards the Japanese way of thinking that employees are an asset.


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## senior chef (Sep 7, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> When I started working as an office clerk in 1974 the hourly rate was $3.60.  That was not enough to live on but I didn’t have much to offer.
> 
> Over the years I took part time jobs, attended night school, and gained some experience.  Eventually as I had more to offer my employer my income increased to a comfortable level.
> 
> ...


Exactly so !   Entirely too many of todays youngsters, can't even write a coherent sentence and their speech is atrocious. As in, "He done gone to da mall".


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> As I understand, the CEO's compensation and retention are heavily dependent on the vote of the stockholders, who quite understandably want to maximize the return on their investment.  So, the people actually doing the work(the workers) get their "returns" minimized  as a result.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The balance of power is shifting a bit in favor of employees due to the pandemic, remote working and a general sense of "I've had enough."  Who knows if things will ever return to normal, and what normal will be in the future.


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## Knight (Sep 7, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Compensation is way out of whack, but I don't have a workable solution to that problem.
> 
> I'm all in favor of measures to help people at the bottom of the wage scale and take more from the people at the top.  Maybe we could learn something from Germany, which has both low unemployment and a strong social safety net.


Congress is working on legislation to increase taxes on high wage earners & successful  corporations. The 3 1/2 trillion dollar cost to have government supply the needs so people no longer have to strive to better their situation is to be paid for by wealthy people & corporations.

While not in effect during the pandemic [heavily taxing the wealthy & corporations] Government help has made it clear people like staying home being cared for while others work. Given enough time & freebies the capitalist system can be replaced by full blown socialism.


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## Tish (Sep 7, 2021)

I can't blame them for leaving at that rate, teenagers working at McDonald's over here are on $18 per hour.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 7, 2021)

Knight said:


> Congress is working on legislation to increase taxes on high wage earners & successful  corporations. The 3 1/2 trillion dollar cost to have government supply the needs so people no longer have to strive to better their situation is to be paid for by wealthy people & corporations.
> 
> While not in effect during the pandemic [heavily taxing the wealthy & corporations] Government help has made it clear people like staying home being cared for while others work. Given enough time & freebies the capitalist system can be replaced by full blown socialism.



I





Tish said:


> I can't blame them for leaving at that rate, teenagers working at McDonald's over here are on $18 per hour.



To people from the US, Australia seems frighteningly expensive, so it's not surprising that wages are higher.


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## Murrmurr (Sep 7, 2021)

Nathan said:


> It is evident that the harder the labor  the less *equity* a worker receives for their efforts.
> 
> Average fast food worker is paid $7.25 /hr., gets scheduled less than 30 hours a week, so employer escapes providing sick time, hoilday/vacation time.
> Works like crazy to keep burgers and fries coming; is on their feet all day.
> ...


Average corporate CEO - at least a BA in Business Administration (an MBA is preferable) and 18 to 20 years of work experience in a cut-throat environment.

Average fast food worker - may have graduated high-school (not required) and 4 to 8 hours of on-the-job training in a giggly, prank-happy environment that likely includes at least 1 attractive co-worker.


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## Murrmurr (Sep 7, 2021)

Tish said:


> I can't blame them for leaving at that rate, teenagers working at McDonald's over here are on $18 per hour.


Do you know what their income tax deduction is? Do you know if they get it back after they file in April?


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## Gary O' (Sep 7, 2021)

Sliverfox said:


> Sorry , but learn to live with in your needs.


Yup

We (two retirees) live waaaay under that $15/hr mark (yeah, that's $7.50/hr each)
And put away noticeably more than $1000/mo

Bottom line;
If you can't afford it, you can't have it


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## WheatenLover (Sep 8, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> I don't want to be  deliberately pedantic... but 30 hours a week..they're not on their feet all day@5 hours a day... they can certainly have time to work another job. Should they have to ?.. that's another question, but if someone is willing to work part-time, for a minimum wage , and they have to provide for themselves or others they should be at least willing to work another part-time job to make up  a full time wage.


There were no full-time jobs available here for my daughter -- so she decided to work 2 part-time jobs. She couldn't do it. The companies would pay her a low wage, and require her to be available 24/7/365. Some companies ask her to tell them her availability and then schedule her for hours outside those time frames. If she could not work those hours (usually with hardly any notice) she would be forced to quit.

These jobs were retail stores, fast food restaurants, and a hotel (maid).


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## WheatenLover (Sep 8, 2021)

CEO Pay Skyrockets To 361 Times That Of The Average Worker​https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianah...s-that-of-the-average-worker/?sh=918d672776dd​"If you have any doubt about our country’s disappearing middle class, check out the current CEO-to-employee pay gap.

In the 1950s, a typical CEO made 20 times the salary of his or her average worker. Last year, CEO pay at an S&P 500 Index firm soared to an average of _361 times more_ than the average rank-and-file worker, or pay of $13,940,000 a year, according to an AFL-CIO’s Executive Paywatch news release today."


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 8, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Yup
> 
> We (two retirees) live waaaay under that $15/hr mark (yeah, that's $7.50/hr each)
> And put away noticeably more than $1000/mo
> ...




Yes, Gary, but you have common sense, skills and an awesome work ethic.  All are lacking in today's environment.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 8, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> CEO Pay Skyrockets To 361 Times That Of The Average Worker​https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianah...s-that-of-the-average-worker/?sh=918d672776dd​"If you have any doubt about our country’s disappearing middle class, check out the current CEO-to-employee pay gap.
> 
> In the 1950s, a typical CEO made 20 times the salary of his or her average worker. Last year, CEO pay at an S&P 500 Index firm soared to an average of _361 times more_ than the average rank-and-file worker, or pay of $13,940,000 a year, according to an AFL-CIO’s Executive Paywatch news release today."




That's sort of what I thought.  Ever since the 70s when I started working, I've seen an explosion in wealth at the top. At the same time, things like rent, house prices, car prices, college tuition, and health insurance have all skyrocketed in price.  That makes it very hard to be "middle class" on what used to be a perfectly acceptable household wage.  

College is a great example. I went to State U for about $1500 per year in tuition.  Same school now is much harder to get into and costs $30,000 in-state.  Who can afford that?


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## Old&InTheWay (Sep 8, 2021)

I am most likely in the minority, but the minimum wage is WAY too high...all it does is _prevent_ employers from offering more jobs and those who are working must do the work of two people....if they can. A high minimum wage swells the unemployment lines. Government can't solve problems....Government is the problem.


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## Old&InTheWay (Sep 8, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Yes, Gary, but you have common sense, skills and an awesome work ethic.  All are lacking in today's environment.


Yes, they are lacking in today's environment,,,that is totally true....but it is because everything is handed to people now....so work ethic crumbles away.


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## Gary O' (Sep 8, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> All are lacking in today's environment.


Just gotta quit with the handouts
They'll come around


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## Sliverfox (Sep 8, 2021)

The work ethnic is lacking .
Didn't any one teach their children how to earn  that new  bike  or game  they wanted?

From an early age I wanted a horse,, would cry  every time I saw one.
I got  an allowance  for  doing house hold chores,, slowly  got  $100 saved.
Begged & begged for a horse.

My teen years were  starting ,, finally  my dream came  true.
We bought a poor  skinny  horse,,not realizing it had 'shipping  fever'.

One of the stipulations   of owning a horse ,, was I Must  clean stall &  feed it, brush it.etc.
Neither of  my parents  liked  horses.

Lessons  well  learned in the care of a large animal are still with me.

How many of you had to 'work'  for an allowance?

What did  you learn?

Yes,, I  was an old school parent to my sons.
Hope that my son   raised his daughters  the same way.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 8, 2021)

Old&InTheWay said:


> I am most likely in the minority, but the minimum wage is WAY too high...all it does is _prevent_ employers from offering more jobs and those who are working must do the work of two people....if they can. A high minimum wage swells the unemployment lines. Government can't solve problems....Government is the problem.



None of the Nordic countries have a government-mandated minimum wage.  Neither does Switzerland.  But they all have strong trade unions in each industry which negotiate decent hourly wages.


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## Tish (Sep 8, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Do you know what their income tax deduction is? Do you know if they get it back after they file in April?


Not sure but I do know that they can claim uniform allowance, and the first 6 months of work are tax-free.


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## Gary O' (Sep 8, 2021)

Sliverfox said:


> Perhaps hard work, planning ahead has become a thing of the past?


The gist of this thread reminds me of a thing I put together last century

The pics I conjured up were hodgepodge crude, but the point was made clear to the younger members of that site
(happily...they loved it)


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## MarciKS (Sep 8, 2021)

I find it amusing how judgmental folks are when they don't even know the people they're talking about.


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## Pepper (Sep 9, 2021)

Also hostile, to their own kids & grandkids generation.  Jealousy of youth, IMO.


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