# Do You Think Zoos, Circuses, Rodeos, etc. Are Entertainment or Animal Cruelty?



## SeaBreeze (Feb 15, 2015)

As an adult, I refuse to go to zoos, circuses or rodeos.  I've learned of some abuse behind the scenes over the years, and being an animal lover, I don't want to support anything that abuses or stresses animals. Even a simple dog trick show makes me wonder.   What do you think, entertainment or animal cruelty??


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## Kitties (Feb 15, 2015)

I agree with you SeaBreeze. Even when I was young and we went to the San Francisco Zoo, I didn't like seeing animals in cages. I know zoos have very large enclosures now but in some ways it bothers me. I have not and never would attend a circus or rodeo.

I had someone tell me once it was cruel that my cats were indoor only so people have differing opinions on this.


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## hollydolly (Feb 15, 2015)

I have always hated zoos and circuses with a passion and after going to one of each when I was a child I flatly refused ever since. I have never been to a Rodeo and despite living in Spain for many years I never attended a Bull fight either..it wouldn't be the matador fighting with the bull it would be me beating the matador...believe me!!

On the other hand I have been to safari parks where animals roam free within huge (acres of land) open enclosures..but caged animals?  nooo way!!

ETA...I also have a real issue with people who keep animals in cages indoors..like snakes or Parrots and even budgies...what a terrible life for animals who in their  natural habitat travel potentially hundreds of miles every day!!


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## Ina (Feb 15, 2015)

Sea, i like to go to the Houston Livestock Show that comes before the rodeo.  The kids and teenagers work all year pampering their animals, and then sell them as breeding stock to the larger ranches.  The money the kids get at the animal's auction generally goes to an education fund for their own futures.  I don't think the kids would agree to having their prized animals harmed.


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## AprilT (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm not fond of nor have I ever been all that fond of most of these places for various reason.  I was taken to these places often in childhood and really would rather have visited somewhere else.  I think some do good for some of the animals, providing care for those that may not have survived had they not been brought to some of these places that do have the best interest of their animals in mind.  But mostly, I don't enjoy seeing the animals in cages knowing thats it for them, they'll never get to roam freely.  There are pluses and minuses for some of them at times, but, mostly it just makes me feel sad when I think on it too much.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 15, 2015)

Well Kitties, cats are not wild animals, and they are much safer indoors.  My cat is very good, comes when I call him by name, and is neutered.  I let him go out daily for an hour or two, and he normally just stays in our yard.  But, having said that, I know I'm taking a chance, there are coyotes in the area and of course, he could get hit by a car if he left our property. 

We even let him loose when we go camping, he stays with the dog and near our camp.  I don't think it's cruel at all to keep cats indoors.  Years back my husband built a little run into the yard for our Burmese.  It was made out of small square wire, and extended from our small basement window.  The cat was able to enjoy the grass, bugs, etc. without risk of danger.  Cats that are able to look out windows, etc. have a pretty good indoor life.  Now, people who kennel their pets all day, that's another story.


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## Cookie (Feb 15, 2015)

I agree too, SeaBreeze.  I never go to zoos, although I did go to the city zoo as a child. An animal sanctuary with lots of space is much better.  The city I live in has a huge zoo and the animal pens are extremely large but I still feel bad for the animals stuck in the cages, especially lions and tigers pacing like crazy in there. 

I consider using animals in circuses and rodeos cruel and wish it would be outlawed, especially after all the reported incidents of horse deaths in chuck wagon race accidents. I would never go to a rodeo either, but have been to circuses as a child too. All I remember is dancers standing up on horses that are galloping around the ring, elephants and of course monkeys. I think it all depends on how the animals are treated and cared for.  But then, of course these animals are much better off than the ones that end up in the slaughter house, but that's another subject.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 15, 2015)

What really angers me is high fenced "canned' hunting.  Where ranchers charge hunters to kill animals who are fenced into a specific area.  They can't run away or escape, due to the fencing.  IMO, hunters who have to hunt in this manner should just stay home, I have no respect for them or the money-hungry jokers who run these facilities.  http://www.bornfreeusa.org/a9d_hunts.php

*"Canned Hunting in the United States*

Imagine an animal running fearfully from a hunter, and quickly finding that everywhere it turns, there is a fence. Or, imagine an animal trustingly approaching a person after a lifetime of human interaction, only to be shot with a bullet or arrow, then suffering a slow, agonizing death. These scenes capture the manipulative "game" of a canned hunt.

Canned, "captive," "high-fence" hunts, "game ranches," or "fenced-in shooting preserves" are essentially private or commercial trophy hunts in which animals are raised or captured from the wild and released into a confined area to be hunted.

 Hunters usually pay the ranch operator for a guaranteed successful hunt. Hunters may perch safely in tree blinds or huddle in vehicles, targeting animals that are caged, lured to feeding stations, or drugged before they are killed. Most disturbing is that fact that these canned hunts often include exotic and endangered species.

Where is this happening? Asia? Africa? ...Right here in the United States of America. African antelopes and lions are bred and hunted in Texas, wild red foxes are caught, released, and chased down by dogs in Virginia, and elk in Colorado are born, raised and shot in a pen.

 Sadly, there are more than a thousand captive hunts in at least 28 states in the U.S. Of the 12 U.S. ranches holding current or recent government-issued endangered species permits, 11 are located in Texas and 1 is in Florida. The animal most commonly hunted at these ranches is the barasingha, or "swamp deer," native to India and Nepal.

 Other targeted endangered or threatened species include Eld's bow-antlered deer, red lechwe, Arabian oryx, and several species of antelope. The going rate for a canned hunt varies; one ranch website advertises a guaranteed kill of a barasingha for $4,000[SUP]1[/SUP].


The ranch owners or operators often acquire these animals from breeders, dealers, auctions, or even zoos or circuses. While operations claim to offer only non-endangered exotic animals, illicit dealers in the exotic "pet" trade often enable the acquisition of endangered animals for hunting.

Another appalling truth is that there is currently no federal U.S. law that specifically bans, oversees, or regulates these activities. Discretion and authority over these private hunting activities are left to state wildlife agencies. Because canned hunts most often take place on private property, such as game reserves that are not governed by the same wildlife laws as public lands, requirements and restrictions are loose and vague.

 On private lands, for example, there are no "bag limits" or caps on numbers of kills; canned hunters are not required to carry hunting licenses; and they do not need firearm experience. These lax requirements allow people with little experience to participate, often exacerbating the agony of the animals when multiple shots are required to kill them."


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## Warrigal (Feb 15, 2015)

Animal cruelty has just been exposed in the greyhound racing industry in Australia. Widespread live blooding has been occurring even though the practice is illegal.



> [h=1]Greyhound racing: Live baiting revelations on Four Corners to be 'extremely damaging' to industry[/h]Four Corners
> By Caro Meldrum-Hanna
> Mon 16 Feb 2015,
> 
> ...


You'll note that all the talk is about the industry, not the cruelty to the live rabbits or cats used to blood the dogs.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 15, 2015)

I see a lot of Greyhounds put in shelters when the owners are done using them for racing, many Greyhounds I see at the local park have been adopted by caring people.  They are such gentle dogs, it's so sad.  The live baiting I wasn't aware of, disgusting!  There's a reason I often say I like animals more than humans.


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## Cookie (Feb 15, 2015)

These things are horrible and extremely upsetting to me and I consider the people who engage in such so-called 'sports' demented psychos. This has to be stopped.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 15, 2015)

:iagree:


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## Falcon (Feb 15, 2015)

Don't like circuses for that reason, but I rather enjoy going to a zoo, if it's clean and the animals have plenty of room and
say, pools for them. If they're caged.....FORGET IT!


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## Butterfly (Feb 15, 2015)

I've never liked these kinds of activities and I don't go to them.  I've always hated circuses, in particular; but I don't like zoos either, or rodeos.   I think circuses in particular are abusive to animals, and just creepy in general.  My parents took me to one as a little kid and it really creeped me out.  

I also think dog racing should be banned.


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## Kitties (Feb 15, 2015)

My kitties have full run of the apartment at all times. What's my space is theirs.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 16, 2015)

Humans have always used animals for their own amusement, and even humans at times like today's sex trafficking...


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

I like zoos, circuses, and rodeos. Many animal species would be extinct if not for zoo breeding programs. You PC people just want to take all enjoyment out of life. You enjoyed these things when you were young but want to prevent youngsters from enjoying them now.

We never let our dogs or cats in the house. It's not their natural environment.

I've been a hunter all my life. "Canned hunts aren't even related to hunting.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

PC?!  Is this fair to a large animal like this?


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

Do elephants belong here?!  If being PC means being compassionate, then being PC is fine.


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## hollydolly (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I like zoos, circuses, and rodeos. Many animal species would be extinct if not for zoo breeding programs. You PC people just want to take all enjoyment out of life. You enjoyed these things when you were young but want to prevent youngsters from enjoying them now.
> 
> We never let our dogs or cats in the house. It's not their natural environment.
> 
> I've been a hunter all my life. "Canned hunts aren't even related to hunting.



Hang on that sounds a little bit hypocritical RK, with all due respect...

First you say that animals should be kept in cages in zoos etc to prevent them becoming extinct...then conversely you then admit that you don't keep domesticated animals inside the house (in essence  a large cage) because it's not their natural environment...well neither is a  cage for a wild animal ten times their size..animals who have never been domesticated and never should be locked up in cages and small enclosures ...but it's ok for them to be locked up as far as you're concerned but not your little tabby cat or little pooch ?

Huh?..explain that to me and everyone please?

And incidentally , if you'd read mine and other posts further back in this thread you will see that some of us not only did not enjoy the circuses et al when we were little but one visit was enough for us to actively dislike the cruelty that comes with animals made to perform for the ''fun' of human beings...


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

Do dogs and cats belong in a house? Is it okay to make them wear clothes and collars? Do dogs and cats deserve to be neutered and declawed?  

Does the PC crowd want all animals to be free or just the ones they don't own themselves? 

What about cattle, sheep and chickens? Should they all be turned loose to roam in their natural environment?


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Do dogs and cats belong in a house? Is it okay to make them wear clothes and collars? Do dogs and cats deserve to be neutered and declawed?
> 
> Does the PC crowd want all animals to be free or just the ones they don't own themselves?
> 
> What about cattle, sheep and chickens? Should they all be turned loose to roam in their natural environment?



Declawed no, neutered yes.  Overpopulation of dogs and cats causes many kittens and puppies to be killed or abandoned.  You would honestly leave your dog or cat outside when temps are -20?

Animals kept penned up in zoos have a shorter lifespan than those in their natural environment.  

Cattle, sheep and chickens should be roaming free in a very large enclosure with the option to go into a barn, etc. when weather is too bad.

You despise those who are PC or liberal for being people who care about those who can't take of themselves.


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## hollydolly (Feb 16, 2015)

No animal desrves to be locked in a cage simply for the amusement of humans that's the point I'm making.

Our family dogs roam free on acres of our land and are kennelled at night in kennels each 10 feet by 12 feet per animal  to keep them warm and safe from harm not for the amusement of visitors 

Sheep, cattle and chickens are raised for  food..and free range animals are allowed to wander in acres of fields until they are killed for food. I'm just as against battery farming as I am circuses and zoos..


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> No animal desrves to be locked in a cage simply for the amusement of humans that's the point I'm making.
> 
> Our family dogs roam free on acres of our land and are kennelled at night in kennels each 10 feet by 12 feet per animal  to keep them warm and safe from harm not for the amusement of visitors
> 
> Sheep, cattle and chickens are raised for  food..and free range animals are allowed to wander in acres of fields until they are killed for food. I'm just as against battery farming as I am circuses and zoos..



Ditto.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

I was using the freedom of my dogs and cats to point out the hypocrisy of those who don't want some animals 'caged' but want to cage their own animals. 

It doesn't get 20 below here but my animals always have a place to keep warm. They are even let in the house in extreme weather.

Most people with dogs and cats don't have acres for them to roam. 

My main concern is people who try to decide what others should do. If you don't want to go to circuses, zoos, or rodeos fine, but don't condemn those who do. Just too many people in this world trying to tell others what they should do.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I was using the freedom of my dogs and cats to point out the hypocrisy of those who don't want some animals 'caged' but want to cage their own animals.
> 
> It doesn't get 20 below here but my animals always have a place to keep warm. They are even let in the house in extreme weather.
> 
> ...



Like the Republican party?


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Like the Republican party?



You don't have a clue. It's the liberal democrats who want the government to run every aspect of peoples lives. It's conservatives who want less government.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> You don't have a clue. It's the liberal democrats who want the government to run every aspect of peoples lives. It's conservatives who want less government.



It's the Republicans who want to ban science in schools and force kids to believe in a christianity, tell women they can't choose abortion, that gays can't marry, and now they want to call men's nipples obscene.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

Rodeo, zoo's, circus's will never stop and wife and I are extremely GLAD of that! We, like millions of other folks who attend this entertainment.......love it!!  Been to all of it and I a former rodeo cowboy in Team Roping! Most "big-city folks" don't want to know where the beef and pork come from that they buy at local grocery stores, but they sure like eating a good Prime Rib! Most "big-city folks" couldn't handle living on/working on a farm like I did. 

And, btw, rodeo cowboys and zoo keepers AREN'T "demented psychos".........thank you very much! 



Cookie said:


> These things are horrible and extremely upsetting to me and I consider the people who engage in such so-called 'sports' demented psychos. This has to be stopped.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!! 
Love people who see things "my way"! LOL




rkunsaw said:


> I like zoos, circuses, and rodeos. Many animal species would be extinct if not for zoo breeding programs. You PC people just want to take all enjoyment out of life. You enjoyed these things when you were young but want to prevent youngsters from enjoying them now.
> 
> We never let our dogs or cats in the house. It's not their natural environment.
> 
> I've been a hunter all my life. "Canned hunts aren't even related to hunting.


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## Cookie (Feb 16, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> Rodeo, zoo's, circus's will never stop and wife and I are extremely GLAD of that! We, like millions of other folks who attend this entertainment.......love it!!  Been to all of it and I a former rodeo cowboy in Team Roping! Most "big-city folks" don't want to know where the beef and pork come from that they buy at local grocery stores, but they sure like eating a good Prime Rib! Most "big-city folks" couldn't handle living on/working on a farm like I did.
> 
> And, btw, rodeo cowboys and zoo keepers AREN'T "demented psychos".........thank you very much!



I suggest you put on your reading glasses, you are mistaken in your assumptions about what I am referring to. Don't assume I'm a big-city person just because I live in one -- I was brought up in the country and choose not to buy/eat meat. While your at it, why not do a bit of research and expand your knowledge of these subjects, as you seem to have a very limited point of view.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

I could tell from the original post that this would be a *HEATED* thread. 

Like I've already stated, and will continue stating.........a lot of "big-city" and even some "small-town" folks have never been around ranches or farms. As far as keeping African animals in cages at a zoo, not everyone has the finances to go on a safari in Africa and see these animals in the wide open. There are plenty of people who love to watch a good Dog Agility Contest. Well, dogs have to be trained to do those tricks just like circus animals do. And, disciplining a dog is just part of owning a dog, just like disciplining a child is part of child raising. 

I've been to Stock Yards and Livestock Auctions in Colorado, Wyoming and Montana. I actually worked a short time for a Livestock Auction in Oklahoma. There are Pen Riders that have to sort out cattle and get them down to the Selling Ring. There are families that their "livelihood" depends on raising dairy cows,  beef cattle and hogs. 

I actually had a local Sheriff's Dept. escort me and some other rodeo cowboy's into the rodeo grounds b/c of some Animal Activist that wanted to shut down the rodeo. These Activists didn't come from the town the rodeo was in, so the townspeople, coming to the rodeo, politely, some less politely, told the Activists off and to get out of their town. There was no fighting and, with the assistance of the Sheriff's Dept., the Activists left.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

Cookie said:


> I suggest you put on your reading glasses, you are mistaken in your assumptions about what I am referring to. Don't assume I'm a big-city person just because I live in one -- I was brought up in the country and choose not to buy/eat meat. While your at it, why not do a bit of research and expand your knowledge of these subjects, as you seem to have a very limited point of view.



That (in red) is entire up to you! I love to have you talk to a degreed (Master's) in Zoo Keeping or a Rodeo Producer, or Ranch Forman. I'm sure you, and others here, would have words to say to them, but they would have words to say right back. 

Oh well, this has been a dispute that has gone on for years and the National Finals Rodeo still goes on in Las Vegas each year. I haven't seen a zoo shutdown yet. People still take their kids to the circus and the entire family loves it.


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## Cookie (Feb 16, 2015)

You are missing the point - but I'm not going to try enlighten you.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

Not "missing" any point and THANKS for not enlightening me about it!



Cookie said:


> You are missing the point - but I'm not going to try enlighten you.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

Falcon said:


> Don't like circuses for that reason, but I rather enjoy going to a zoo, if it's clean and the animals have plenty of room and
> say, pools for them. If they're caged.....FORGET IT!



I agree with you.  Modern Zoos are much different than zoos of the past.  There are less animals, and the habitat is large and kept as realistic as possible.   Most of us cannot get to places to see these animals in person.  It serves a purpose in keeping people aware and educated about different species... some are endangered.. Many Zoos have breeding programs to increase the numbers of various endangered species and send animals back to their native countries.   There is also research being done to find ways to preserve animal species... so.. I don't think we can villianize all zoos.  Some are doing a service to animals in the wild.

As for circuses and rodeos?   No way would I attend.


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## Falcon (Feb 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Like the Republican party?




       :whythis:  ???


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Do dogs and cats belong in a house? Is it okay to make them wear clothes and collars? Do dogs and cats deserve to be neutered and declawed?
> 
> Does the PC crowd want all animals to be free or just the ones they don't own themselves?
> 
> What about cattle, sheep and chickens? Should they all be turned loose to roam in their natural environment?



Hold the show in the road just a minute....   What natural environment for domestic dogs and cats are you talking about?   These animals were bred to be domestic pets and yes.. some are bred to work.. such as in cattle herding and hunting... BUT there IS NO natural environment for these animals.  They are completely dependent on their humans for their survival.   Oh yes.. a cat can kill a mouse or a bird.. but that's about it..  THEY NEED FOOD AND SHELTER..  so If someone does not wish to provide that... they have no business owning a dog or cat.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It's the Republicans who want to ban science in schools and force kids to believe in a christianity, tell women they can't choose abortion, that gays can't marry, and now they want to call men's nipples obscene.



You still don't have a clue. I'm all for science. Neil DeGrasse Tyson is one of my favorite people. I'm also an atheist, and I've posted many times about my belief in free choice for women. I am against gay marriage.  I prefer to look at women's nipples.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 16, 2015)

> They are completely dependent on their humans for their survival.   Oh yes.. a cat can kill a mouse or a bird.. but that's about it..  THEY NEED FOOD AND SHELTER..  so If someone does not wish to provide that... they have no business owning a dog or cat.



Zoo, circus and rodeo animals also need food and shelter. So what's the difference?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It's the Republicans who want to ban science in schools and force kids to believe in a christianity, tell women they can't choose abortion, that gays can't marry, and now they want to call men's nipples obscene.



So much for small government!!  lol!!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Zoo, circus and rodeo animals also need food and shelter. So what's the difference?



Circus animals are WILD... they are not domesticated... they were taken from their natural environment, where they can and do survive on their own.  Horses and cattle can and do survive in the wild by grazing for food..  they DO have a natural environment.   Dogs and cats do not.. and they cannot survive very long left to their own devices.  SO... don't want to keep your dog or cat warm and fed?  Don't own one.  That's simple..


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 16, 2015)

I know that not everyone would agree with my feelings about keeping wild animals in cages or abusing them in training for the entertainment.  I know a lot of people like these things and I don't force my beliefs on anyone.

  Rkunsaw, you've hunted all your life and that's fine, you've made good use of the animals shot and didn't go to a fenced farm to do it.  I knew a rodeo rider from Oklahoma, who loved telling his story about how when a horse threw him off and injured his back, he walked him in a circle and swung a big 2X4 with a long nail in it into that horse's hide each and every time he came around.  He had a $hit eatin' grin on his face too, every time his told his story...so proud.

Dogs and cats are not like large wild lions, elephants, tigers, gorillas, etc.  These are wild animals that should stay in their own environment and climate.  Even as a young child, it saddened me to see the animals at zoos and circuses, and my family rarely went to them.

  Some people are animal lovers, the animals can't speak for themselves or control the situations they are in, so it's good when activists can make a difference in their lives.  There is story after story of terrible abuse that goes on behind the scenes.  Some people just don't care about it, and some don't like it but choose to make believe it doesn't exist.

I'm not going to trash anyone who still enjoys these things, we're all different in this world and we have different likes and dislikes.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just give my own opinion about the abuse, and the misery these animals endure.  Even if zoos, circuses, rodeos, etc. still stayed in existence forever, which they will I'm sure, I can only hope that those individuals who mistreat or torture the innocent animals are punished for their deeds.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, SB, I can't say why that rodeo cowboy was so proud of how he treated that horse, have to say that I know a number of rodeo cowboys that would whip his a** for doing that. All the guys, and ladies, that I knew at rodeo's, took great care of their horses. Any Rodeo Stock Contractor would tell anyone just how good his bucking stock is treated. The rodeo association that I was a part of, keeps excellent watch at how animals are treated in the industry. 
I've actually gone to a Tack Store and seen a bit that was made out of a bicycle chain! I damned near fainted. Couldn't believe ANYONE would put that into a horses mouth! Hobbles are used on horses to keep them still and in one place. Sometimes a horse has to learn to stay in one place and not move around. It's a training aid. I've owned two Quarter Horses and was a member of AQHA back in the 80's. I seen the way horses are trained and some people think it's cruel, but in reality, it's not. People who think it's cruel, have never owned a horse or been around horse training. Spurs are also a necessity and I use to wear Roping Spurs all the time when I roped steers. Heck, wearing spurs goes back years upon years ago. 

For those that think animals in circus's, zoo's, rodeo's whatever are treated badly, simple thing to do is not go to those events. But, don't think that those who really like that entertainment should be put-down for it. No matter how much protesting is done, all of those animal entertainment things will go on. Just way to many families and people in general like them.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm not as concerned with rodeos and circuses as I am with other ways humanoids use poor animals for entertainment... dog and cock fighting.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 16, 2015)

And, Jockey's using the "slapper" on the side of their horse to get it to go faster to win a race. Doesn't bother me because I know it's just part of horse racing. 
Yep, QS, dog and cock fighting is a major problem, but as long as people make money doing it, just like other things people do illegally to make money, it will never stop. 



QuickSilver said:


> I'm not as concerned with rodeos and circuses as I am with other ways humanoids use poor animals for entertainment... dog and cock fighting.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

I love all animals much more than people.  I am so adamant about animal cruelty in any form, I will get involved.  I HAVE gotten involved.  I do not attend any event I feel the animals are being mistreated.  Many years ago (60), while at Del Mar I saw a horse fall and had to be put down.  Never went to another race track.  People say "what about the poor Jockey he was hurt too" and my attitude is the Jockey volunteered to get up on that pony and race him, the noble steed did not ask to be raced.


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## hollydolly (Feb 16, 2015)

Excellent Post Jim..You can  be my internet  BFFL :thumbsup1:


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> Excellent Post Jim..You can  be my internet  BFFL :thumbsup1:



OMG!  I've yearned for this day Holly.  Thank you....:clap: Now, about my stay in Spain.......


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## hollydolly (Feb 16, 2015)

:lofl:


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> :lofl:



But, but, but.....I thought.....uh.....oh well I can always watch travel logs of Spain...


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## Ameriscot (Feb 16, 2015)

Poor, Jim! You can come to Scotland!


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## oakapple (Feb 16, 2015)

Falcon said:


> Don't like circuses for that reason, but I rather enjoy going to a zoo, if it's clean and the animals have plenty of room and
> say, pools for them. If they're caged.....FORGET IT!



I agree with this comment. Some zoos are really wildlife parks and are run very well indeed, but I would like to see all the small zoos and private zoos closed down. Here, no circus I know of uses any animals these days, but there still may be some around that do.


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## hollydolly (Feb 16, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> But, but, but.....I thought.....uh.....oh well I can always watch travel logs of Spain...





Jim next time I'm there you are verry welcome to come and visit with us mi amigo ..


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Poor, Jim! You can come to Scotland!



All kidding aside I wish I could see Scotland before my time is over but it's just a sweet fantasy.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> Jim next time I'm there you are verry welcome to come and visit with us mi amigo ..



I knew you'd cave in on the subject.  Holly, you are Tú eres mi amiga (with thanks to Google translator).  :thankyou:


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## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2015)

Bringing the thread back to the subject, the Four Corners episode screened last night ant it was explosive.
Don't watch if you are easily upset because it is very distressing but keep in mind what is out of sight, out of mind, continues to flourish.
That would be true of any industry involving money, gambling and animals.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2015/02/16/4178920.htm

Some action has been promised to clean up the industry. What I am interested in is prosecutions that result in gaol time.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-...ctorian-government-two-investigations/6124754


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## chic (Feb 17, 2015)

I haven't been to a zoo, or circus since I was a little kid back in the '60s. I disapprove of zoos. It was beyond horrible to watch the large animals, especially predators held captive in tiny cages almost unable to move or polar and grizzly bears suffering in the summer heat. The elephant was chained by its foot to a stake set in cement while vistors ambled by. I hate the very thought of animals suffering to entertain humans in this way. Wild life parks are a different story, maybe.

I've never been to a rodeo in my life. But I've seen clips of the things they do on tv. and do not like what I've seen.


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## Debby (Feb 19, 2015)

Ina said:


> Sea, i like to go to the Houston Livestock Show that comes before the rodeo.  The kids and teenagers work all year pampering their animals, and then sell them as breeding stock to the larger ranches.  The money the kids get at the animal's auction generally goes to an education fund for their own futures.  I don't think the kids would agree to having their prized animals harmed.




I believe 4H animals are usually slaughtered right after they receive the awards.  Thats the deal.  If I'm wrong, someone correct me.  

And I don't support any entertainment that uses animals.  The critters don't ask to be roped, ridden as bucking whatevers, etc, and I've seen enough videos of bulls continuing to buck with broken legs flopping and I once saw the video of Eight Belles when she broke both her front fetlocks in her last race!  Horrifying!  Why can't we leave the animals alone?  We wouldn't do these kinds of things to our house pets, why does the suffering of other animals not matter?


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## Debby (Feb 19, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Animal cruelty has just been exposed in the greyhound racing industry in Australia. Widespread live blooding has been occurring even though the practice is illegal.
> 
> 
> You'll note that all the talk is about the industry, not the cruelty to the live rabbits or cats used to blood the dogs.




Oh, I saw that too and it totally ruined my morning.  I'm still feeling it, grieving for the suffering little critters.


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## hollydolly (Feb 19, 2015)

Well said Debbie, I  agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence (post 59)


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## Debby (Feb 19, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Do dogs and cats belong in a house? Is it okay to make them wear clothes and collars? Do dogs and cats deserve to be neutered and declawed?
> 
> Does the PC crowd want all animals to be free or just the ones they don't own themselves?
> 
> What about cattle, sheep and chickens? Should they all be turned loose to roam in their natural environment?




How about those cattle and other food animals not be bred anymore to suffer?  PC = Proudly Compassionate  (and we thank you for the label!)  I also love Bleeding Heart because it proves I have one.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 19, 2015)

Wow, the military taught me not to be a PC or BH! But, I do have somewhat of a "compassionate heart", but a BH, no way! I love animals, but also love rodeo, zoo's and the circus. 



Debby said:


> How about those cattle and other food animals not be bred anymore to suffer?  PC = Proudly Compassionate  (and we thank you for the label!)  I also love Bleeding Heart because it proves I have one.


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## GeneMO (Feb 19, 2015)

Cats and dogs were bred to be domesticated?    Oh no!!!!  Fido and Fluffy are GMO's!!  Run fer the hills.  

Gene


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## Bee (Feb 19, 2015)

I actually enjoy going to the zoo, there is a large beautiful zoo about 15-20 miles from where I live, the owner of that zoo does a lot of conservation work in Africa and there are times when they have bred endangered species, the animals at the zoo are kept very comfortable and in spacious surroundings, they also have tours from the local schools so that children can see and learn about the wildlife.

This zoo is one of the best in Europe.

I keep a pet budgie at home and he is caged for his own safety, the cage is larger than the usual budgie cage, he is a very happy bird and still as active as when I bought him 7 years ago and is always chirpping, in fact he can get very noisy at times and more so when I have company.

Just because I enjoy zoos and keep a budgie in a cage it does not follow that I am not an animal lover.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 19, 2015)

I have to say as I did someone a while back about Bullfights, he said  "when the bull is killed, the meat is used, just like the cow you buy at the super market.".....My reply still stands..."while the demise of the cattle bred to slaughter may not be a pleasant thought it is not after being physically tortured and teased before being killed before a crowd of blood thirsty fans!"  I feel strongly about this having seen a bull killed in the ring in Mexico as a young man.  I'll spare you the details but suffice to say it brought on a violent vomiting event on my part.


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## Debby (Feb 19, 2015)

The truth is that rodeo's are simply for the sake of earning money and entertainment and nothing more.  The well being of the animals involved is secondary and important only in as much as it affects the cash and entertainment value.  The animals involved in any of these sports never asked to be put at risk for abuse by flank straps, hidden hot shots, broken legs, broken backs and necks and human induced fear and trauma.  There is no justification for any of this.  

SHARK is an acronym for 'Showing Animals Respect and Kindness' and their mission is to expose the dark underbelly that rodeo's don't want the public to see.  A Google search of their name will pull up videos from rodeos all over the country that reveal what 'the industry' doesn't want you to see.  They also follow the pigeon shoots that Pennsylvania allows where  thousands of  helpless birds are blown to bits by 'sportsmen' and where children learn that life means nothing in the pursuit of fun.   

A compassionate heart never justifies hurting animals for fun or for putting them at risk for suffering.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 19, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Bringing the thread back to the subject, the Four Corners episode screened last night ant it was explosive.
> Don't watch if you are easily upset because it is very distressing but keep in mind what is out of sight, out of mind, continues to flourish.
> That would be true of any industry involving money, gambling and animals.



I didn't watch the whole video Warri, but I have seen similar ones in the past.  Don't know which animals I feel more sorry for, but I despise the humans who engage in this barbaric cruelty.



Debby said:


> And I don't support any entertainment that uses animals.  The critters don't ask to be roped, ridden as bucking whatevers, etc, and I've seen enough videos of bulls continuing to buck with broken legs flopping and I once saw the video of Eight Belles when she broke both her front fetlocks in her last race!  Horrifying!  Why can't we leave the animals alone?  We wouldn't do these kinds of things to our house pets, why does the suffering of other animals not matter?



Some monsters do it to their house pets, when they engage in dog fighting.  I agree, these defenseless animals are purely victims of humans and their lust for thrills and entertainment.



Bee said:


> I actually enjoy going to the zoo, there is a large beautiful zoo about 15-20 miles from where I live, the owner of that zoo does a lot of conservation work in Africa and there are times when they have bred endangered species, the animals at the zoo are kept very comfortable and in spacious surroundings, they also have tours from the local schools so that children can see and learn about the wildlife.
> 
> This zoo is one of the best in Europe.
> 
> ...



A zoo that is caring for the animals and provide good natural space, etc. is far better than some of the zoos I've seen.  I believe you are an animal lover Bee, and I don't unreasonably judge you for liking a well-run zoo.  As far as your budgie, I know he's well loved and lucky to share your home with you. :love_heart:



Debby said:


> The truth is that rodeo's are simply for the sake of earning money and entertainment and nothing more.  The well being of the animals involved is secondary and important only in as much as it affects the cash and entertainment value.  The animals involved in any of these sports never asked to be put at risk for abuse by flank straps, hidden hot shots, broken legs, broken backs and necks and human induced fear and trauma.  There is no justification for any of this.
> 
> SHARK is an acronym for 'Showing Animals Respect and Kindness' and their mission is to expose the dark underbelly that rodeo's don't want the public to see.  A Google search of their name will pull up videos from rodeos all over the country that reveal what 'the industry' doesn't want you to see.  They also follow the pigeon shoots that Pennsylvania allows where  thousands of  helpless birds are blown to bits by 'sportsmen' and where children learn that life means nothing in the pursuit of fun.
> 
> A compassionate heart never justifies hurting animals for fun or for putting them at risk for suffering.



I agree Debby, there is too much cruelty and abuse going on behind the scenes to ignore.  As far as hunting, I'm not against it if you need the animal's meat for food, those who just shoot to kill for the thrill of it, are another story.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 19, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I love all animals much more than people.  I am so adamant about animal cruelty in any form, I will get involved.  I HAVE gotten involved.  I do not attend any event I feel the animals are being mistreated.  Many years ago (60), while at Del Mar I saw a horse fall and had to be put down.  Never went to another race track.  People say "what about the poor Jockey he was hurt too" and my attitude is the Jockey volunteered to get up on that pony and race him, the noble steed did not ask to be raced.



I'm with you about loving animals more than people Jim.  I never knew this, but I just read that race horses are bred and many times the mother's milk is only given to a prize thoroughbred foal, who they have hopes of racing.  All other foals are let to die, until next time and it happens all over again.  Anoyher lovely aspect of horse racing.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 19, 2015)

I used to go to zoos and circuses as a kid, but then what did I know?

I understand that some research is done at some zoos, and preserves have a more noble cause for being, but it still doesn't justify locking animals up in cages. One of the worst back in the day was the Central Park Zoo - tiny little cages with thick bars and cement floors, and the smell was overpowering. 

... and that was just the restrooms ... 

And don't even get me started on circuses ...


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## Warrigal (Feb 19, 2015)

I'm not happy about any event that involves big gambling interests.
Put that together with animal welfare and I know which one comes a distant second on the priority rankings.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, there's one thing FOR SURE, there will be those that don't like animal entertainment and those that do. All I know is the same thing I've been said before......have NEVER seen/heard of a zoo closed down due to people not liking them and the same goes for rodeo's and a circus! So, I guess no matter how much people complain about something, that "something" continues.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 20, 2015)

http://www.peta.org/blog/victory-circus-shut-california/

This circus was threatened with a shut-down by the city if they did not stop exhibiting exotic animals. 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/italian-circus-closed-pass-off-dogs-pandas/story?id=27793003

An Italian circus shut down for trying to pass off dogs as pandas! 


But you're right - despite all the protests and the petitions by PETA most of these things just keep going on, probably because the majority of people view animals as merely entertainment and food.


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## Cookie (Feb 20, 2015)

https://www.thedodo.com/la-shriners-circus-wont-use-pe-484286324.html

LA Shriners Circus Won't Use Live Animals For the First time in 88 Years

Things are changing thanks to PETA.  

CR  you seem to stand by your statements that things won't change for the better for the animals because animal entertainment is lucrative and therefore it is justified.
Even though just about everyone here has expressed their views, as you seem to be defending and supporting it so vehemently, what kind of a person does that make you, a humane one or an inhumane one?  Think about it.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 20, 2015)

There are a LOT of animal lovers out there that still go to the zoo, rodeo and circus. Believe, PETA isn't going to stop all of it..........THANK God!! And, btw, wife and I are humane. Just because we like this entertainment doesn't mean we are inhumane! I've know some pretty tough Bull Riders and Steer Wrestlers that you definitely wouldn't want to say that to! They wouldn't hurt you, but would definitely "get in your face", like a Drill Sargent, and tell you how they feel.

But, you have your feelings and millions of other folks have theirs. Good luck trying to change people who love this entertainment and have pets at home.



Cookie said:


> https://www.thedodo.com/la-shriners-circus-wont-use-pe-484286324.html
> 
> LA Shriners Circus Won't Use Live Animals For the First time in 88 Years
> 
> ...


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## hollydolly (Feb 20, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> There are a LOT of animal lovers out there that still go to the zoo, rodeo and circus. Believe, PETA isn't going to stop all of it..........THANK God!! And, btw, wife and I are humane. Just because we like this entertainment doesn't mean we are inhumane! I*'ve know some pretty tough Bull Riders and Steer Wrestlers that you definitely wouldn't want to say that to! They wouldn't hurt you, but would definitely "get in your face", like a Drill Sargent, and tell you how they feel.*



really?...well they sound exactly like the type of people that  should be around animals....hmmm...perhaps not eh?


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## Cookie (Feb 20, 2015)

CR - As you have given a clear picture of who you are by your statements and as it is obvious that your opinion on this subject here is only one among many and as you have brought your supportive network of stereotypical "tough bull riders and get in your face people who wouldn't hesitate to tell me how they feel" into the picture - it shows that Peta has a hard job ahead in this matter, but Peta's numbers are increasing while the numbers of your tough bull riders are dwindling.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, since it's obvious you know very little-to-nothing about pro-rodeo, I'll leave your "dwindling" word alone. PETA does have a hard job ahead! Now, what about the other dude on here that likes the zoo, rodeo and the circus..........go talk to him now!

Now, back to my "kiss-butt" Classic Rock music.



Cookie said:


> CR - As you have given a clear picture of who you are by your statements and as it is obvious that your opinion on this subject here is only one among many and as you have brought your supportive network of stereotypical "tough bull riders and get in your face people who wouldn't hesitate to tell me how they feel" into the picture - it shows that Peta has a hard job ahead in this matter, but Peta's numbers are increasing while the numbers of your tough bull riders are dwindling.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 21, 2015)

Greatest Show on Earth, or Greatest Hell on Earth.  My heart goes out to these poor creatures when I see what their lives have become thanks to humans.  Those trainers who beat them and whip them, I would like to do the same to them.  Warning: language and upsetting content.



Spoiler


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## hollydolly (Feb 22, 2015)

I clicked on the spoiler link but as soon as I saw the title I shut it off , I just can't watch it SB..


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## Bee (Feb 22, 2015)

From the U.K.............

There were fears that only big cats and elephants would be banned from travelling circuses after MPs’ recommendations early this summer.
But now there has been confirmation from  Government ministers that a ban on the use of all wild animals in circuses in England will go ahead by the end of 2015.
Many leading charities and animal welfare organisations such as the RSPCA, Born Free Foundation, the British Veterinary Association and the Captive Animals’ Protection Society have campaigned together against wild animals being used in circuses.
The RSPCA has been particularly outspoken, warning that wild animals are likely to suffer from being dragged around the country from pillar to post just so audiences can be “entertained.
RSPCA senior scientist Dr Ros Clubb said: “It is a great relief that the Government has listened to reason and we are back on track to getting a proper ban on the use of all wild animals in circuses.
“As the Government has pointed out, there is absolutely no basis for protecting only a select group of wild animals, and no desire to do so from MPs, the public or animal welfare groups. No wild animals belong in a circus.
“Now we need to leap over the final hurdle and get a definite date for this legislation to be passed and end this outdated practise.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/438753/AT-LAST-Ban-on-ALL-wild-animals-in-circuses-is-passed


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## hollydolly (Feb 22, 2015)

Wooohooooo great news Bee


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 22, 2015)

SB, a lot of people, for whatever reasons, don't want to know what goes on "behind-the-scenes" of anything. There are plenty of people, not raised on a farm or ranch, that don't want to know where the meat came from that they buy in their grocery store. Most people who were not raised *ON* a farm or ranch couldn't/wouldn't visit one. In these two places, owners take great care of their livestock, but there are things that "look" like abuse, but sure aren't. Farm and ranch animals can hurt people, so sometimes they have to be handled with caution and certain "tools of the trade" have to be used for the protection of people.  

The people that don't like rodeo's, zoo's and circus's sure aren't going to show (video) the really great parts of these things. 

People do abuse animals and I don't like it. There are some people that make a living in the rodeo industry and a darn good one at that. Some high school kids get fully-paid scholarships to college's and universities as long as they compete on the rodeo team. 

Heck, there are folks that don't like the sport of fishing. They hate seeing a hook put into a fishes mouth and all I can say about that is..........whatever! Gee, what are we suppose to do for entertainment for families. SeaWorld is great family entertainment, but there are those that think that place should be shut down. 





SeaBreeze said:


> Greatest Show on Earth, or Greatest Hell on Earth.  My heart goes out to these poor creatures when I see what their lives have become thanks to humans.  Those trainers who beat them and whip them, I would like to do the same to them.  Warning: language and upsetting content.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


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## rkunsaw (Feb 22, 2015)

I have been a hunter all my life. I've had dogs all my life. I like to go to zoos, circuses, and rodeos. I eat meat. 

I am also an animal lover. Probably more so than any member of PETA. I plant trees and vegetation for all sorts of wildlife. I supply food and mineral blocks for deer and other animals. I feed wild birds and squirrels. 

I have never treated dogs and cats as children. To me that is animal cruelty. 

So tell me "animal lovers" what do you do yourself to help animals? (Complaining about what others do doesn't count.)


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## Ameriscot (Feb 22, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> I clicked on the spoiler link but as soon as I saw the title I shut it off , I just can't watch it SB..



Me either!


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 22, 2015)

*VERY GOOD*, rkunsaw!! Yes, VERY GOOD!!



rkunsaw said:


> I have been a hunter all my life. I've had dogs all my life. I like to go to zoos, circuses, and rodeos. I eat meat.
> 
> I am also an animal lover. Probably more so than any member of PETA. I plant trees and vegetation for all sorts of wildlife. I supply food and mineral blocks for deer and other animals. I feed wild birds and squirrels.
> 
> ...


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## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> SB, a lot of people, for whatever reasons, don't want to know what goes on "behind-the-scenes" of anything. There are plenty of people, not raised on a farm or ranch, that don't want to know where the meat came from that they buy in their grocery store. Most people who were not raised *ON* a farm or ranch couldn't/wouldn't visit one.



I agree with this. Many people don't want to know anything about what they buy, other than "Is it on sale?" 




> People do abuse animals and I don't like it. There are some people that make a living in the rodeo industry and a darn good one at that. Some high school kids get fully-paid scholarships to college's and universities as long as they compete on the rodeo team.



There are some people who make great livings selling heroin and illegal guns, too.

As for the scholarships - like with other sports, getting a free ride through college where the professors give you passing grades if you show up to class? 

I wouldn't want any of them to go out with MY little sister ... 



> Heck, there are folks that don't like the sport of fishing. They hate seeing a hook put into a fishes mouth and all I can say about that is..........whatever!



So how is fishing a sport? Isn't a sport a contest between two EQUAL contestants? How can you equate a guy who buys an application-specific boat and high-powered motor, fish-finders and hundreds / thousands of dollars of gear with a dumb, naked fish? It's just like bullfighting - ten guys in the ring with lances verse a worn-out bull? 

Now if you're talking survival - catching a fish so you can eat - then yes, it's a good thing. But catch-and-release? "Oh, it doesn't hurt them!". Try sticking a treble hook in your mouth then pulling it out and going about your day. 




> Gee, what are we suppose to do for entertainment for families. SeaWorld is great family entertainment, but there are those that think that place should be shut down.



Family entertainment? How about a walk through the woods? With cameras? How about swimming or paddling alongside those fish in the lake? 

People make a big deal out of visiting Auschwitz, then they come back here and go to the circus and the zoo for a good time. Personally I don't see much difference - the prisoners are locked up, mistreated , used for experiments, humiliated and finally put down when their usefulness is at an end.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 22, 2015)

Well, at least you agree with me on one thing........sure is better than none.

I don't know about the "catch and release" thing in fishing. I know what it's about, but being abusive to fish? Would really like to hear from fishermen that do this. 



SifuPhil said:


> I agree with this. Many people don't want to know anything about what they buy, other than "Is it on sale?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bee (Feb 22, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I have been a hunter all my life. I've had dogs all my life. I like to go to zoos, circuses, and rodeos. I eat meat.
> 
> My ex-husband used to keep ferrets to go rabbiting with, hell in our early days of married life with hardly any money, we wouldn't have eaten if it wasn't for him catching rabbits and I am very partial to a wild rabbit stew...........my youngest son is also into field sports and I haven't got a problem with that and it is mainly farmers that call for help in getting rid of foxes.
> 
> ...



I posted the link from the U.K. to show what animal lovers have actually achieved.

In my post 65, I did say just because I enjoy going to the zoo and keep a budgie in a cage, it doesn't make me any less an animal lover.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, at least you agree with me on one thing........sure is better than none.



LOL - I'm sorry. I don't mean it to sound like I'm jumping on you - just trying to add a little pizazz to the forum. 



> I don't know about the "catch and release" thing in fishing. I know what it's about, but being abusive to fish? Would really like to hear from fishermen that do this.



Well, I know fish have a very hard upper palette, and it seems that there's a lot of info available for conscientious fishermen.  I agree (that's twice!) that it would be good to hear from fishermen on this score ...


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## Cookie (Feb 22, 2015)

*Empathy:  *

*Definition: The ability to understand or share the feelings of another.
*
The topic of animal use and abuse seems to be a sensitive one and more complicated than I thought  -  it is very frightening to have your core values and beliefs challenged and the way you have been raised in society questioned.  If those beliefs and values are threatened you might become afraid and angry because without them, you really haven't much to hold on to.  The things you have done and thought you had accomplished become meaningless or even wrong.

People have been mistreating animals for eons, and it has been encouraged and condoned by their communities and society and even considered necessary for survival.  But that is no longer the case. It is no longer considered very admirable to hurt animals.  Big game hunting is gone.  People are becoming more conscious and empathetic as well as knowledgeable about animals and how they are very similar to humans in many many ways. 

So far I have noticed on this forum topic that there are only a few angry champions of animal mistreatment, defending it as if their life depended on it, yet everyone else speaks strongly against it.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 22, 2015)

Hmmm, I must have missed the posts from angry champions of animal mistreatment. Animal lovers like me and CR would never mistreat animals.


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## Cookie (Feb 22, 2015)

Hmmmmm - I can withdraw those words if you like - but you seem to be identifying with them.

This topic is about mistreatment of animals in zoos and rodeos and other venues of 'entertainment' such as greyhound racing and horse racing. From what I have read there are some posts which seem to be in favour of these entertainments and which deny that the animals are mistreated, contrary what has been shown.  Perhaps your idea and definition of mistreatment and abuse is different from mine.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 22, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Hmmm, I must have missed the posts from angry champions of animal mistreatment. Animal lovers like me and CR would never mistreat animals.



I don't think either of you would mistreat or abuse animals.  I still eat meat and know exactly where it came from, there are processing plants which are as humane as possible, and the practices of others are atrocious and the animals suffer greatly. 

 I still go fishing, although not so much as when I was younger.  When we go camping we'll catch a few trout and fry them up in the pan for dinner.  I haven't been around too many ranches or farms in my life, but when I was young I often visited a small farm where we bought our fresh eggs.  The ladies who lived there were very kind to all the animals, and it was a wonderful experience.

I know there are a lot of animal lovers who enjoy going to zoos, circuses, etc., especially those with young children who want to learn about different animals of the world.  Some zoos that are more like sanctuaries that provide acres of land and climate similar to what the animals are used to are much better than some zoos I have seen in my life.  I have no problem with hunting, when the hunter makes use of the meat and hunts in the wild.  The canned hunts or hunters who just want to shoot something for the hell of it, are things I'm against.

Although many folks may go to these places and still be animal lovers and be kind to them, the fact that these industries have a lot of abusive handling of the animals behind the scenes is an unfortunate fact of life, but I think things are getting a little better than they were years ago, thanks to the activists who are watching .  The animals can't speak for themselves, and any animal lover with any empathy has to feel sorry for them, IMO.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 22, 2015)

Cookie said:


> This topic is about mistreatment of animals in zoos and rodeos and other venues of 'entertainment' such as greyhound racing and horse racing. From what I have read there are some posts which seem to be in favour of these entertainments and which deny that the animals are not mistreated, contrary what has been shown.  Perhaps your idea and definition of mistreatment and abuse is different from mine.



I'm like you Cookie, I can't and won't go to dog or horse races, zoos, etc.  I just can't enjoy myself, because my mind immediately focuses on the animal's well being.  I had a dog years back, who I showed in a few dog shows as a puppy, both obedience and show.  I didn't continue with it for various reasons, even though my dog did well and won his share of ribbons. 

 Having both participated in shows and gone as a spectator, I saw some treatment of the show dogs behind the scenes that I didn't care for.  Owners being very short and angry with their dog if he was getting antsy.  Dogs being in tiny cages for hours on end, until it was their turn to show, etc.  No real abuse, but enough to make me feel sorry for them.  I don't dress my pets up or anything like that, but I do treat them as part of the family and will always refer to them as my furkids.  Sometimes their comfort is put before mine.


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## Cookie (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks SeaBreeze - I feel the same, I can't deal with people who shout and get angry at animals.  I once saw a man slapping and yelling at his dog on the street.  I stopped and shouted at him to stop.  He replied that he could do what he wanted because it was his dog. I've seen much worse things but can't speak of them as they are too painful even to think about. Hopefully people are more aware now and treat their animals better.  But there are still many reports in the news of terrible abuse.  

I always considered my cats part of my family and I treated them that way. They greeted my friends when they came to visit and took part in family events. But my mother's background was a rural one where they considered all animals as livestock even cats and dogs.  My older friend who was brought up in an isolated farming community didn't seem to be able to communicate with animals at all.  I'm sure most people love their animals deeply.  My cats had language and understood quite a few words and knew how to communicate with me.  From what I understand dogs and cats understand the spoken word very well. A friend's little Daschund dogs would only respond when spoken to in her native tongue.

I wonder whether the interest in these events is geographic or economic or social. But there are all kinds of people in this world - some very loving and kind and some not so much. Then there are those who will participate in these events but are nice to their own pet whatever it is. I'm not saying they are all bad people, that is what they know. Sorry, CR and Rk, I have to say this, but even Hitler loved his dogs and apparently his wife.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 22, 2015)

Those in other countries definitely treat their animal differently, in America we're not used to seeing those things.  When I watch some shows on TV in certain countries, it's disturbing.  Those who live on ranches and have their dogs and cats outdoors can definitely be animal lovers and not abusive at all, but I can't be that way with my pets.  Even when I had an Alaskan Malamute, who had no issues at all with cold and snowy weather or being outside, came in with us at night.

When I see shows like Animal Police or Animal Cops and watch people who have dog fights in their basement, buy or acquire helpless puppies or dogs just to be used as 'bait' training, it breaks my heart.  Those who leave animals tied outside 24/7 on a short leash, sometimes without shelter or even water, should suffer the same consequences, IMO.  I don't know how many dogs or horses they showed that were nothing but skin and bone.   People like that should not be allowed to own animals ever again.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 22, 2015)

I'll say one thing, Cookie.......you're definitely BRAVER than I am! I would never stop and shout something to someone about what they were doing, not in this "day and age" of people carrying concealed weapons.  I value my life to much for that. Only one kind of person could do that and get away with it........a person wearing a badge and caring a 9mm w/handcuffs on a Service belt (Officer or Game Warden). Anyway, not only that, the dude was right, the dog is his and he can do what he wants to it. That is, until Law Enforcement comes into the picture. 



Cookie said:


> Thanks SeaBreeze - I feel the same, I can't deal with people who shout and get angry at animals.  I once saw a man slapping and yelling at his dog on the street.  I stopped and shouted at him to stop.  He replied that he could do what he wanted because it was his dog. I've seen much worse things but can't speak of them as they are too painful even to think about. Hopefully people are more aware now and treat their animals better.  But there are still many reports in the news of terrible abuse.
> 
> I always considered my cats part of my family and I treated them that way. They greeted my friends when they came to visit and took part in family events. But my mother's background was a rural one where they considered all animals as livestock even cats and dogs.  My older friend who was brought up in an isolated farming community didn't seem to be able to communicate with animals at all.  I'm sure most people love their animals deeply.  My cats had language and understood quite a few words and knew how to communicate with me.  From what I understand dogs and cats understand the spoken word very well. A friend's little Daschund dogs would only respond when spoken to in her native tongue.
> 
> I wonder whether the interest in these events is geographic or economic or social. But there are all kinds of people in this world - some very loving and kind and some not so much. Then there are those who will participate in these events but are nice to their own pet whatever it is. I'm not saying they are all bad people, that is what they know. Sorry, CR and Rk, I have to say this, but even Hitler loved his dogs and apparently his wife.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 22, 2015)

I only see one side of this issue.  The animals.  I love all animals whether wild or domesticated.  Unlike many others I will, can, and do become involved if I see animal abuse.  It is MY business and if the situation warrants, I do consult proper authorities of the problem should my own efforts seem futile.  Humans have the ability to escape danger but animals often don't or can't.  What human do your know that when called will rush to you trustingly for you to do harm to them?

I have a story I'll share sometime about loyalty of an animal to his "owner".


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## Cookie (Feb 22, 2015)

Jim, I completely admire, respect and agree with your point of view.  When someone is hurting an animal in my presence or in my sight I consider my duty to try to stop them -- the same way any decent person would step in to stop someone from abusing a child.


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## hollydolly (Feb 22, 2015)

Ditto to both JIM and cookies' post from me..


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## Denise1952 (Feb 22, 2015)

I have a pretty, well-know gal-friend I went to highschool with.  Interesting you would bring this up SB.  I love her like a best buddy love, but I wondered over the years, and I never could be in that part of her life.  I did do the horse thing, but not rodeo, type stuff.

I don't care for the life, and I never liked the calf-roping, or anything that might be hard on an animal.  Her and her family have made their living, and it is their life.  She is my age so she doesn't doing any sort of competing now (don't know if it age or she is just busy with the business end).  Like I said, I love her but it's a whole other world kind of.  I know there must be tons of rodeo folks that love their animals, and I'm sure things are much better now because of the animal rights activists.  I just can't stomach any cruelty, especially to the innocents.


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## chic (Feb 23, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Hmmmmm - I can withdraw those words if you like - but you seem to be identifying with them.
> 
> This topic is about mistreatment of animals in zoos and rodeos and other venues of 'entertainment' such as greyhound racing and horse racing. From what I have read there are some posts which seem to be in favour of these entertainments and which deny that the animals are mistreated, contrary what has been shown. Perhaps your idea and definition of mistreatment and abuse is different from mine.



Not me. Personally, I boycott all forms of animal entertainment perceiving it as a form of cruelty beneath us. I dearly love my four legged buds, wildlife as well as domestic pets, and would as much as possible within my power ensure they live lives of comfort, dignity and love.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 5, 2015)

Yay!!  Ringling Bros is slowly going to phase out the elephants by 2018 there will be none in their circus acts.  I saw on TV today that some of the elephants will be moved to a wildlife refuge, where they'll finally have a good life compared to the one they had.  Now...for the other animals.  http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnash...will-stop-using-elephants-by-2018#.cxoLylnzGv


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## chic (Mar 6, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Yay!! Ringling Bros is slowly going to phase out the elephants by 2018 there will be none in their circus acts. I saw on TV today that some of the elephants will be moved to a wildlife refuge, where they'll finally have a good life compared to the one they had. Now...for the other animals.  http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnash...will-stop-using-elephants-by-2018#.cxoLylnzGv



I heard that too. Awesome news for pachyderms. Now let's retire the large cats too. There's just no place for animal acts in circuses anymore IMO.


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## Cookie (Mar 6, 2015)

That's good news and I'm happy for the elephants.  I'd like to see circuses completely eliminate animal acts from their venues - someday that will happen too.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 6, 2015)

And of course people should stop riding horses. What a cruel way to treat a horse. For no reason except the owners pleasure. Put a piece of steel in his mouth so you can pull it to one side or the other to make the poor horse turn this way or that.


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## Davey Jones (Mar 6, 2015)

A circus without any animal acts is not a circus.
The elephants may be gone and Ringling Bros will be gone within 5 years.
The elephants ARE the big time circus.k


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## QuickSilver (Mar 6, 2015)

I think circuses have outlived their purpose..  Way back when there weren't very many avenues of entertainment the traveling circus was a big deal to a small town.  Now there are so many other ways people can be entertained, it's time the circus goes away..  There are venues for the acrobatics and High-wire performances. circ de sole comes to mind.. they don't use animals..


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 6, 2015)

If Ringling Bros. was gone too after five years, that would be a plus for all the animals.


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## Debby (Mar 6, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> And of course people should stop riding horses. What a cruel way to treat a horse. For no reason except the owners pleasure. Put a piece of steel in his mouth so you can pull it to one side or the other to make the poor horse turn this way or that.




I have two old horses and that is exactly an issue for me and how I interact with them.  When I chose a vegan lifestyle, I did continue riding but very rarely and I began riding with only a halter instead of the bridle.  My riding became gentler (and I was already a very conscientious owner/rider) and much rarer to the point where I've had a saddle on them maybe twice in the past four years and only to stroll around the property just so they got a change of activity for half an hour.

I think you have to remember that when a horse is trained to accept a rider, that trainer is teaching a prey animal to overcome every survival instinct it has, i.e. never let a predator on your back.  Most horses don't want anybody up there.

There is also the method that is used to train it to accept an unnatural experience.  I once watched a race track guy teaching two year olds to accept the rider and to go forward when required and it was obviously a frightening and horrible experience for those horses.  On the other hand, my daughter had a Friesien for a few years that never had to be 'trained' at all in that regard, she loved interacting with people in every capacity even more than she wanted to hang out with the herd.

My horses have been lucky and been treated well always, but I've seen some animals whose misery was palpable.  But very little gets done to change that because there was food on the property, they were getting fed and the rest of it, oh well.  A classic example of that kind of misery is the soring that has been done to Tennessee Walkers for decades, even into the time that it was banned.  And all those 'horse lovers' will tell you they love their animals too!


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## AZ Jim (Mar 6, 2015)

Circuses will go the way of the carnival.  Kids today don't marvel at the same things kids of yesteryear did.  If all circuses were shut down, it would be a good thing.


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## Cookie (Mar 6, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Circuses will go the way of the carnival.  Kids today don't marvel at the same things kids of yesteryear did.  If all circuses were shut down, it would be a good thing.



Absolutely agree Jim, no place these days for animal acts not to mention all the freak show items either.


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## Catraoine (Mar 6, 2015)

I have only been to a Circus once and I left after 20minutes, never again. We have lots of rodeos here and again I will not go again. Seeing children being allowed to chase piglets to see who is the first one to catch it and get a prize turned my stomach. The piglets were being fell on and pulled out of other children's hands. I do wonder about the parents that think this is okay. I don't have as much of a problem with horse racing but the whip should be banned,Steeplechasing is banned is many countries thankfully. I guess I don't need to go into Fox hunting and Bull Fighting do I ?


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## pchrise (Mar 6, 2015)

*One thought


<strong>



*


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## chic (Mar 7, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> A circus without any animal acts is not a circus.
> The elephants may be gone and Ringling Bros will be gone within 5 years.
> The elephants ARE the big time circus.k



Maybe it's time that circuses and zoos and any form of entertainment that treats lesser species inhumanely should bite the dust.


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## SeaBreeze (May 24, 2015)

This video was taken in 2006 in Brazil at a wildlife sanctuary, when a circus lion named Will was able to walk on grass for the first time after being in a tiny cage for 13 years.  Will experienced 5 years of freedom before passing in 2011.


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## Lon (May 24, 2015)

Modern photography allows children as well as adults to see animals in their natural habitat instead of as captives. To the best of my knowledge there is no animal cruelty involved in wild life photography.


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## AZ Jim (May 24, 2015)

Fortunately for animals both domestic and wild, the rkunsaw's and Davey Jones's of the world are getting to be a smaller and smaller minority.


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## Cookie (May 24, 2015)

Loved the video, SB, really felt for that dear lion.  Thanks for that.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 29, 2015)

12 wild animals are rescued from Mexico by a Colorado animal sanctuary, more info and video here.  http://kdvr.com/2015/08/27/12-wild-animals-rescued-from-mexico-and-brought-to-colorado/


KEENESBURG, Colo. — Twelve wild animals were rescued from rough conditions in Mexico this week and given new lives at The Wild Animal Sanctuary.

Eight lions, two lynx, one mountain lion and one coyote arrived in Colorado on Wednesday night. By Thursday afternoon, they were adjusting to their new home.

Some of the animals were held captive in Mexican zoos and circuses. Others were owned privately. A lion named Sansei was discovered abandoned on the side of a road.

“She was a former circus animal who was dumped,” said Jason Maxey with the Wild Animal Sanctuary.

Perhaps the saddest story is the story of CanCan the coyote.
“He was unfortunately used in some witchcraft ceremonies,” Maxey said.

According to the shelter, some people practicing black magic would tie his legs, hang him and poke his body with forks. The Wild Animal Sanctuary says there are plenty of wild animals dealing with difficult situations across the country.

“There are more tigers in the state of Texas outside the zoo system than there is in the wild, currently,” Maxey said. “There’s about 3,200 tigers in the wild today compared to about 4,000 in the state of Texas outside the zoo system alone.”

The 12 animals brought to the Wild Animal Sanctuary will spend the rest of their lives relaxing, eating endless amounts of food and for once – enjoying life.


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## Jackie22 (Aug 29, 2015)

We should praise anyone trying to save animals and yes, sadly there is cruelty to animals in the circus, rodeos and zoos.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 17, 2016)

Mountain Lion who found freedom after being chained in the back of a pickup truck by a Peruvian Circus...thank goodness for the kind hearted folks involved.  This animal may not last long in the wild, but at least he's where he was meant to be, if only for a short time.


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## fureverywhere (Jan 17, 2016)

It's sad...if you watch something like the video to "Amarillo By Morning"...well besides how gorgeous George Strait was in those days...it's just a short clip of rodeo culture and you can see people being drawn to it. On the other paw what they do to those poor animals you find yourself rooting for the bull or horse " Go on and nail that bastard, one good leap and you can break both his legs, get him!!!".

I have always been repelled by the circus even as a kid. Besides hating clowns, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time except no those creatures weren't supposed to be doing tricks like a dog. There had to be some pain and suffering involved to make them do that stuff. I just didn't like what I was seeing. Now that I've read what they do from the elephants...those poor elephants especially...to the Killer Whales...who had the bright idea to take something with Killer in it's name and teach it to do tricks with humans? What exactly WERE they thinking?

Big Bucks of course, which is what has kept the circus and rodeo and SeaWorld going for decades.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 17, 2016)

Poor animal - looks like his spirit is broken.


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## fureverywhere (Jan 17, 2016)

Perhaps they don't have sanctuaries in Peru? That's really where he should be, won't have a chance in the wild.


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## Debby (Jan 17, 2016)

Rest easy folks because 20 year old Mufasa was released to first a rescue centre and then after rehab will be transported to a refuge where he has his own little piece of forest until the end of his days and will be looked after.  No one  would release him into the wild.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mountain-lion-freed-chains_564f31cee4b0879a5b0a8b54

He's finally safe, free and happy.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 17, 2016)

Thanks Debby, I didn't know that.  I doubted he could exist in the wild after a life like that...good to hear.


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## Linda (Jan 17, 2016)

I think circuses and zoos should all be shut down.   I won't go into all the reasons I believe this because I'm suppose to be packing to go out of town early in the morning.  But I saw this computer sitting here and ...........  I will have to say I can't find anything about the LA Zoo to complain about but if you let one place like that exist you have to let the others.  Sure there are rules against animal cruelty but I don't believe for a minute they have the manpower and teeth to do the good they should be able to do.  I'm guessing it's easier for a circus to move on and not have to face the music for their infractions against the animal world.  Just like if someone writes a $5,000 hot check and skips town, it's hard to get much done about it.


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## Ruth n Jersey (Jan 17, 2016)

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. Last year we took a road trip, from the east to the west coast. I always heard that the San Diego Zoo was one of the best we have in this country. I was anxious to see for myself. It seemed clean enough, the caretakers in each area seemed knowledgeable and caring, hopefully I was right. Maybe I was seeing something that really wasn't there since I was scrutinizing this zoo, and I am no expert, but it seemed no matter how large an en-closer these animals had, they seemed to have kind of a vacant stare.

 As I said, maybe it was me just trying to find something. I especially noticed it with the apes. Something about their eyes just made me want to cry.I will not visit any zoos ever again. I have no answer for these poor animals,or the animals in the wild that are being slaughtered.. You can't seem to trust organizations either. A few years back I donated cans of food to a local animal shelter. I have read it is always safer to bring food directly because a donation of money could be pocketed.

 I found out down the line the dog food was being sold also. Here in Jersey, we are having a bear problem. I dread hunting season. Seems like they extend the hunt longer each year. 90% of the time if someone is harmed by a bear it was because people left garbage around, got in the way of mama and her cubs or just plain harassed the animal. Now they are complaining we can't walk safely in our parks. We spend a fortune on ridiculous issues. 

At the very least,and I know it is expensive,but try to relocate some of these animals. We do have a bear in our area. When we had our dog,even though we have a fenced in yard, I would walk the dog when the bear was most active in the area, and stayed close to the house. I have a cockatiel, he is about 15 now.I rescued him from a filthy house that had a garage sale.

  In the morning I open his cage. He usually is content to sit on the top of his cage or on my shoulder.At night he goes to bed by himself.Then I cover the cage. The only time I put him in the cage is when I cook. I would never dream of keeping that bird caged.


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## Karen99 (Jan 17, 2016)

Im with you, Holly.  I stay away from all these things.  I am thankful for the groups who rescue these animals.


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## vickyNightowl (Jan 17, 2016)

I love seeing a bull attack the matador.just today I saw a video online of a parent videotaping his toddler hitting and pulling the dogs tail.what the hell have we become?


Did you know that the tigers used in the movie The Life of Pi were abused by their trainer? There is a video and nothing has been doNe.f ing as..


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## chic (Jan 18, 2016)

fureverywhere said:


> Perhaps they don't have sanctuaries in Peru? That's really where he should be, won't have a chance in the wild.



I felt that way too until Debby's post. Good to see such a beautiful animal freed from its chains, isn't it.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 18, 2016)

I like well run zoos and I like circuses.  I am happy to see either.


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## Butterfly (Jan 18, 2016)

Like Fur, I've always found circuses creepy, even as a child.  I would never go to one.  

Don't like zoos either, but at least our zoo here is huge and none of the animals are in cages.  They each have an area that is controlled to be like their own habitat.  Not so bad, but I still don't like putting animals on display like that.


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 18, 2016)

SeaBreeze said:


> As an adult, I refuse to go to zoos, circuses or rodeos.  I've learned of some abuse behind the scenes over the years, and being an animal lover, I don't want to support anything that abuses or stresses animals. Even a simple dog trick show makes me wonder.   What do you think, entertainment or animal cruelty??



I am not sentimental about animals, but don't believe they should be ill treated. I am not sure about zoos, but circuses are cruel in my opinion. I don't know about rodeos as we don't have them in the UK. I also think idiots who dress their dogs up and treat them like humans are also being cruel!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> I am not sentimental about animals, but don't believe they should be ill treated. I am not sure about zoos, but circuses are cruel in my opinion. I don't know about rodeos as we don't have them in the UK. I also think idiots who dress their dogs up and treat them like humans are also being cruel!



Why?     My little doggies have coats and sweaters...  it gets very cold here..   I also call all my animals my kids.. and my babies..   I even talk to them as if they understood me..  am I being cruel?


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## Debby (Jan 18, 2016)

Linda said:


> I think circuses and zoos should all be shut down.   I won't go into all the reasons I believe this because I'm suppose to be packing to go out of town early in the morning.  But I saw this computer sitting here and ...........  I will have to say I can't find anything about the LA Zoo to complain about but if you let one place like that exist you have to let the others.  Sure there are rules against animal cruelty but I don't believe for a minute they have the manpower and teeth to do the good they should be able to do.  I'm guessing it's easier for a circus to move on and not have to face the music for their infractions against the animal world.  Just like if someone writes a $5,000 hot check and skips town, it's hard to get much done about it.





Even circuses can be followed by people who care Linda.  Ringling Bros. Circus is ending their elephant use as a result of being brought to court and charged with animal abuse thanks to the hard work of animal rights activists who filmed them beating and abusing the elephants in their 'care'.  All of them will be retired this year to go and live on a ranch of sorts until they die of old age.   The circus owners finally gave in to the changing attitudes of the public and pressure from AR groups and even though the courts found against the AR groups evidence and witness standing (or something along those lines), the company owners realize that the end is nigh for that kind of entertainment.  So no bad actor is immune if people care.


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 18, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> Why?     My little doggies have coats and sweaters...  it gets very cold here..   I also call all my animals my kids.. and my babies..   I even talk to them as if they understood me..  am I being cruel?



Poor dogs!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> Poor dogs!



Why?   Why are they poor dogs?   The seem pretty happy to me.. and it makes me really happy too..


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 18, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> Why?   Why are they poor dogs?   The seem pretty happy to me.. and it makes me really happy too..



I think all animals should be respected for the species they are, NOT treated like humans!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> I think all animals should be respected for the species they are, NOT treated like humans!



So you're saying we should NOT treat them with kindness or respect as we would a human?


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 18, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> So you're saying we should NOT treat them with kindness or respect as we would a human?



They shouldn't be ill-treated but they shouldn't be treated like humans either, they are a lesser species and should know their place, imo!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> They shouldn't be ill-treated but they shouldn't be treated like humans either, they are a lesser species and should know their place, imo!



So, it would be okay for me to kick puppies and drown cats?

The problem is you're saying two things at once - that we should treat them with respect, yet we should treat them like the dumb animals that they are.

I'm having difficulty seeing it both ways ... 

I've always believed that ALL life forms are equal - there are no "lesser" species.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 18, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> So, it would be okay for me to kick puppies and drown cats?
> 
> The problem is you're saying two things at once - that we should treat them with respect, yet we should treat them like the dumb animals that they are.
> 
> ...




I also don't believe in a "lesser" species.   Certainly there are species that have more intellectual capabilities, although sometimes even that is questionable.  And I wonder how domesticated animals are expected to "know their place"... when over thousands of years, humans have removed them from their wild forms and brought them into our homes and lives.   Does a dog KNOW he is a dog?  or does he believe he is part of our family  (ie pack)..     I have a real problem with people who believe otherwise.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> They shouldn't be ill-treated but they shouldn't be treated like humans either, they are a lesser species and should know their place, imo!



 If  they are a "lesser" species and should know their place... well... perhaps my dogs' place is to please me by allowing themselves to be pampered..  kept warm with sweaters when it's below zero....  given regular grooming.. (so they look pretty)... because it makes me happy... and since they are "lesser"... that is their place...  To bring me happiness..  right?


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## Bluecheese50 (Jan 18, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> So, it would be okay for me to kick puppies and drown cats?
> 
> The problem is you're saying two things at once - that we should treat them with respect, yet we should treat them like the dumb animals that they are.
> 
> ...



I said they shouldn't be ill-treated. Anyway we aren't going to agree so there is no more to be said on the topic as far as I am concerned!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

QuickSilver said:


> I also don't believe in a "lesser" species.   Certainly there are species that have more intellectual capabilities, although sometimes even that is questionable.  And I wonder how domesticated animals are expected to "know their place"... when over thousands of years, humans have removed them from their wild forms and brought them into our homes and lives.   *Does a dog KNOW he is a dog?  or does he believe he is part of our family  (ie pack)*..     I have a real problem with people who believe otherwise.



Just ask Cesar Millan - "The Dog Whisperer" - he constantly talks about dogs becoming "part of our human pack", and all of his behavioral work is based upon that. 

Things like cockroaches or those scary-looking fish that live in the deep sea ... well ... I wouldn't necessarily treat them as equals, but I don't go out of my way to stomp them just because they're "lower" forms. They have as much of a right to life as I do. Who am I to pass judgement? 

Otherwise, one day, a huge foot will come out of the sky, like on Monty Python, and stomp ME.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> I said they shouldn't be ill-treated. Anyway we aren't going to agree so there is no more to be said on the topic as far as I am concerned!



Ah - thank you for shutting me down, just because we don't agree.


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## Cookie (Jan 18, 2016)

Who says they are 'lesser'?  It all depends on what you have been told by some authority (school/church) -  everyone does not believe the sentient and insentient thing, although many people like to think animals are lesser so they can use and abuse them and even eat them.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

Cookie said:


> Who says they are 'lesser'?  It all depends on what you have been told by some authority (school/church) -  everyone does not believe the sentient and insentient thing, although many people like to think animals are lesser so they can use and abuse them and even eat them.



I have known animals that have had more common sense, bravery and love than many humans.


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## Shalimar (Jan 18, 2016)

Indeed, Philly, I agree. What is lesser? Some primates have the intellectual capacity of a small child. Are they lesser than our beloved children who are mentally challenged? IQ is only one arguable measure.What determines sentience anyway? Is the 

only criteria the capacity to learn complex behaviours and adapt to changing environs, or is there room for the capacity for love, loyalty, and sacrifice? Many believe whales to have an intelligence equal to, although different from our own. Do you 

know that Orcas will come and listen to you play the flute and sing  to them? They play, and express joy at the sharing. We all have a place in this complex world we share. I am not arrogant enough to insist I am in dominion over anyone by right of 

species superiority. What is my place? To be a steward, not an omnipotent goddess-like owner of this mother earth and her creatures. The only evil in this world is committed by humans, how superior can we be? We destroy each other, and the 

environment. At best, many of us are fractious children, with bad habits, and very dangerous toys. Our bestial brethren have much to teach us, if only we are humble enough to learn?


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 18, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> I also think idiots who dress their dogs up and treat them like humans are also being cruel!




Well I guess that I'm one of the idiots since I put a coat on my dogs in frigid winter weather and treat them like one of the family.  That's okay though, your comment is a good reminder of why I like animals so much more than people.  I must be a lunatic, here are two of my dogs on a bone chilling day, I warmed them up afterward and they slept in my bed at night.  They were my furkids....yes, my furkids, may they both rest in peace.  My current dog also shares my home and is cared for better than some people care for their children, and of that I am very proud.




"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanual Kant~


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## applecruncher (Jan 18, 2016)

I see nothing wrong with jackets/sweaters on dogs. And it looks cute in addition to helping to warm them.

A friend puts little holiday outfits on her cats, but just for pictures.

I thought about putting leggings and a sweater on my cat, but she doesn’t go outside, I don't know where to get kitty leggings, and I also didn’t think it would end well. :laugh:

In the morning when I say “Good morning, Bella” she usually answers but that’s only because she’s hungry and wanting breakfast. At night the last thing I say is " ’Night, Bella” before I drift off. She rarely answers.


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## Shalimar (Jan 18, 2016)

SB, you should be proud! Gandhi said the measure of a society was in how it treated it's animals. Perhaps people who do not live in cold climates fail to understand the need to keep our pets from freezing. That is entirely different from forcing animals to 

constantly wear uncomfortable dresses, hats etc. which inhibit movement, curtailing their ability to play, be comfortable etc. purely for the ego of the owner. It must be horrid for the poor things, particularly in the heat of summer.My cats are part of my 

family, I fail to see how that negatively affects anyone else? I don't pass judgement on people who prefer not to have pets, anymore than I would frown on those who choose not to have human children. Caustic remarks directed toward people who 

hold differing views on the value and treatment of animals, says more about the character of the attacker, than the value of those being disparaged imho.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

How true. How very, very true.

I've broken potential friendships and even romantic relationships when I first saw how they treated animals. 

I remember as a kid going to various zoos. The one thing that struck me the hardest, stayed in my memory the longest and really turned my stomach was seeing people - kids AND adults - poking sticks and throwing things at the caged animals. Then they would laugh.  I had a visceral reaction to this behavior every time, while wondering where the pleasure was in abusing animals.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 18, 2016)

Here's my little Murphy as a puppy.  He was just about 3 pounds in this pic.   Now he is full grown and all of 6 pounds.   this morning our temp was minus 3 degrees..  with the windchill minus 27...  No way is Murph going out without his coat and hat.

[URL="http://s77.photobucket.com/user/IdaRose/media/IMG_0131_zps709380ab.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j62/IdaRose/IMG_0131_zps709380ab.jpg[/URL][/IMG]


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## SifuPhil (Jan 18, 2016)

Awww! I hope he stayed warm - he probably did, thanks to your concern. I also hope he didn't lick any flagpoles!


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## Cookie (Jan 18, 2016)

All our lovable neighborhood doggies wear their jackets/coats/and jersies when it gets cold, including booties for freezing/salted sidewalks.  They are very happy about it too.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 18, 2016)

Tooo cute QS, what a little guy! :love_heart:


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## Shalimar (Jan 18, 2016)

So cute, QS!


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## Karen99 (Jan 18, 2016)

My pets ARE family.  They are shown love, kindness, affection..and their love and loyalty and return of same is the most profound thing..  I do put a sweater on my baby when she is walked...something soft and not scratchy.

when people can't love animals it puts a red flag up to me...as they are so easy to love. I agree with Phil...I wouldn't date a guy who wasn't sweet to my two cats.  That's the truth. My husband loves animals as much as I do.


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## Shalimar (Jan 18, 2016)

I could never love a man who did not love plants, animals, and children.


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## Debby (Jan 18, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> My pets ARE family............




That's how most of us feel about our animals isn't it Karen?   Today I was talking to my mom and she asked me why I wasn't leaving the cat when we move, because 'he's such a good mouser and the new owners will need that in the barn'.  She just doesn't understand what you just said.  She was always great with us when we were kids and wanted pets (we had more than we should have) but she just doesn't understand you know.   Like would you leave your kid 'because he does such a good job of raking leaves and the new owners will need that'?


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## Debby (Jan 18, 2016)

applecruncher said:


> ..........
> 
> In the morning when I say “Good morning, Bella” she usually answers but that’s only because she’s hungry and wanting breakfast. At night the last thing I say is " ’Night, Bella” before I drift off. She rarely answers.




That's because they're all 'U D's' (User Dogs) and we don't mind at all !  We always say that as Max is sliding down from the back of the sofa, onto Don's shoulder and down into his arms.  Our little UD doing what he loves to do which is make himself comfortable (and we better accommodate him or he'll give us the sad, brown puppy eyes).


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## Karen99 (Jan 18, 2016)

I agree, Debbie.  I think some just don't connect the dots in this area.  I think once you allow yourself to love something it brings protective and nurturing feelings.  It reaffirms my faith in humans when I see them treat animals with kindness.  I don't think this detracts from our ability to care about other humans In any way.

I know my dog is a dog...but her time with me is precious.  I had my previous dog 15 years and the one before 16.  Their pictures are framed and the memories treasured.  My cats as well.  There is a special bond with a pet and it is indeed a family tie..bound by love on both sides.  What better thing can there be.  I am actually sorry for people who never feel this joy.


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## fureverywhere (Jan 18, 2016)

Good heavens with sweaters and jackets. We have a big old drafty house. As people we can layer clothes and turn up the heat a bit...our critters have to make due. My Callie has fur like peach fuzz and actually stands and quakes sometimes when he catches a chill. It's not easy finding sweaters for his build but he has a cozy collection. Unless your pup is a sled dog, coats can feel really good when the temps go below freezing. 

I don't judge...well except when there is neglect involved. The wind chill is around 7 right now and those clowns down the street have had their dog in the yard for hours. It's not barking tonight, probably frozen...It's a border collie and probably they figure throwing it outside is "exercise". But the opposite spectrum of babying them is fine. For some people the creature IS a substitute infant. I remember two Mami's who used to come into the store. The each had a chi and would have a merry time trying on clothes. The dogs seemed used to it so owners are happy and doggies get attention win/win.


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## Cookie (Jan 18, 2016)

The doggie boutiques are relatively recent, I first saw one around 2005 in a high end mall here in town.  My friend and I laughed our heads off when we saw the stylish little footwear and coaties for all sizes of dogs.  But its big business and flourishing  --- in this climate -- one of our neighbours' dog has many coats to choose from and even his favorites.  Happy and warm dogs.


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## Butterfly (Jan 19, 2016)

My sweet pittie Bonnie IS my family.  I pamper her and fuss over her.  She deserves it.  She is my companion, my walking buddy, my personal trainer, my shrink and my friend.  She is very precious to me and I treat her like the precious gift she is.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 19, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> My sweet pittie Bonnie IS my family.  I pamper her and fuss over her.  She deserves it.  She is my companion, my walking buddy, my personal trainer, my shrink and my friend.  She is very precious to me and I treat her like the precious gift she is.


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