# Osteo-arthritis, HELP



## Denise1952

I am going to be hitting the "research" today, harder then ever.  My sister might kill me if she sees this, but I have to find all I can on how to treat this, damn disease.  She has it, and yesterday, I saw her trying to get out of her chair, then when she made it, she could hardly walk or stand erect.  She is just 72, and I can't just watch this happen (get worse and worse) without trying all I can to find answers.  She said the reason it was so bad yesterday was because she had stood in the kitchen baking 2 pies.  She says the standing in one place makes her the worst.

So any helpful info, links, experience with the disease, will be welcome here.  I know about gelatin and she is on that, she drinks a tablespoon a day.  She can't afford a lot of things that are out there.

denise


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## Lon

First  I would reccommend a Bone Density Scan which is a painless and inexpensive procedure to determine just how bad her condition is. Secondly --I would encourage her to take calcium and vitamin D supplements.


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## Denise1952

Ok Lon, I believe she has been keeping up on the bone density checks all along.  She was diagnose a few years back.  I will check with her today on the D and Calcium.  I haven't been "riding herd" over her, but may try to if she is open to it.  I'm pretty regimented on my nutrition, as well as some helpful things for "this and that" so maybe if I pay a bit more attention I can encourage her.  Thank you much, Denise


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## Pappy

I also have it Denice. I've had it since just before I retired. I can feel for her as it can really be painful. If hers is anything like mine, she will have good and bad days. Rainy, cold weather gets mine going or if I do a lot of lifting, the next day is hell. This is the reason I gave up my part-time job here at the beach.

i do have some pain pills I can take, but would rather not take them unless necessary. Heating pads can help, as well as just plain ole Tylenol. Rest as much as possible and see a doctor if it worsens. It won't go away and I have the X-rays to prove it.
Nasty stuff. Tell her I am thinking about her and wish her well. Pappy


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## Denise1952

Pappy said:


> I also have it Denice. I've had it since just before I retired. I can feel for her as it can really be painful. If hers is anything like mine, she will have good and bad days. Rainy, cold weather gets mine going or if I do a lot of lifting, the next day is hell. This is the reason I gave up my part-time job here at the beach.
> 
> i do have some pain pills I can take, but would rather not take them unless necessary. Heating pads can help, as well as just plain ole Tylenol. Rest as much as possible and see a doctor if it worsens. It won't go away and I have the X-rays to prove it.
> Nasty stuff. Tell her I am thinking about her and wish her well. Pappy



Thank you Pappy, I will pass-on your well wishes, and info, hugs, Denise


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## Denise1952

I just got off the phone after finding a pool here in the area.  Please no comments about pools being sanitary or not, start your own thread on that if you want.

I found out there is a pretty, good deal if we get a 10 day punch card (only 27.50).  If she'll go with me, I am going to try and get us both started, it sure won't hurt me, and it may help her.  Along with other things like supplements etc.  I just hope she'll go.  I'll keep you posted denise


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## ClassicRockr

I've got this in both of my ankles and wear cloth ankle braces each day. If I go to the zoo, or someplace where I will be standing and/or walking a lot, I'll have the braces on, but it will be pretty guaranteed that that night I'll be using cold packs and taking Motrin. Sometimes it takes a couple of day to really get rid of the pain. 

There are things that are recommended to be done, as in exercise and keep a descent weight/diet. We visited our local YMCA one day at noon and was amazed at how many Seniors were in the nice/warm main (inside) pool doing an exercise class. Problem is, just like with surgery, a membership into the YMCA can be costly. Because of our combined income (my SS and her salary) it would cost us $90 each per month. To high for us...........we use the apt complex pool, when we can. 

We had to move from Colorado and then from North Carolina b/c the winter weather affected our bones/muscles. We are both Diabetic II, and that sure doesn't help either.

I sure hope she starts feeling better, but I have my bad and good days as well. I hate pain, so, when that happens, I pull out the Motrin.


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## SeaBreeze

Unrefined cold pressed virgin coconut oil, turmeric (curcumin) spice, and omega 3 fish oil will all help with the inflammation of arthritis.  Beneficial supplements are MSM for inflammation pain, vitamin k2 to help calcium stay in the bones and out of the arteries, magnesium malate and vitamin D3.


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## Denise1952

ClassicRockr said:


> I've got this in both of my ankles and wear cloth ankle braces each day. If I go to the zoo, or someplace where I will be standing and/or walking a lot, I'll have the braces on, but it will be pretty guaranteed that that night I'll be using cold packs and taking Motrin. Sometimes it takes a couple of day to really get rid of the pain.
> 
> There are things that are recommended to be done, as in exercise and keep a descent weight/diet. We visited our local YMCA one day at noon and was amazed at how many Seniors were in the nice/warm main (inside) pool doing an exercise class. Problem is, just like with surgery, a membership into the YMCA can be costly. Because of our combined income (my SS and her salary) it would cost us $90 each per month. To high for us...........we use the apt complex pool, when we can.
> 
> We had to move from Colorado and then from North Carolina b/c the winter weather affected our bones/muscles. We are both Diabetic II, and that sure doesn't help either.
> 
> I sure hope she starts feeling better, but I have my bad and good days as well. I hate pain, so, when that happens, I pull out the Motrin.



I found a public indoor pool in our area, have you checked on that, it could be cheaper, w/senior rates maybe.  I there are some stats on rebuilding cartilage that my sis and I are both using.  I think it is first of all, what a person is willing to try.  I'm not saying I know the gelatin her and I are using (for example) is going to work/help, but nothing I've read tells me it's bad for our body in any way, so trying that.

Cost is frustrating, FDA has so much power (which we've allowed over the years) and so, the cost keeps going higher, I don't know what to say.  All we can do is the best we can do to survive.


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## Denise1952

SeaBreeze said:


> Unrefined cold pressed virgin coconut oil, turmeric (curcumin) spice, and omega 3 fish oil will all help with the inflammation of arthritis.  Beneficial supplements are MSM for inflammation pain, vitamin k2 to help calcium stay in the bones and out of the arteries, magnesium malate and vitamin D3.



I'm writing these all down, and will look for ways to put them into "recipes".  We have excellent coconut oil (cp'sd), turmeric, and I am a fish fool, but my sis isn't.  So, she does have some awesome capsules that I gave her as I eat so much fish, I didn't need them, or felt she needed them way more.  I will try and get those into her diet.  I will see about the D3 and I think we have magnesium.  Thank you much SB, denise


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## ClassicRockr

I take the fish oil twice a day (2000mg total) and use the MSM also.



SeaBreeze said:


> Unrefined cold pressed virgin coconut oil, turmeric (curcumin) spice, and omega 3 fish oil will all help with the inflammation of arthritis.  Beneficial supplements are MSM for inflammation pain, vitamin k2 to help calcium stay in the bones and out of the arteries, magnesium malate and vitamin D3.


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## Denise1952

ClassicRockr said:


> I take the fish oil twice a day (2000mg total) and use the MSN also.



Ok, it's good to know your dosage.  My question is, do you feel a noticeable difference after being on this for a time, how long if so?


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## SeaBreeze

Here's more info...


http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/eat...knee-arthritis

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/st...ibits-inflammation-associated-with-arthritis/

http://www.naturalnews.com/034479_ch...#ixzz1hTfCZJrU


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## ClassicRockr

Like I said, if I stand in one place too long, like your sister did w/the pie making, or if I walk to long, I will end up with pain. Don't think the Fish Oil or MSN helps with the pain, that is what a OTC/Motrin/Tylenol is for. If the pain is pretty constant, it's time for a consultation w/a doctor! Sometimes an older person has to take a pain med for the rest of their life. Don't really want to do that, but it's better than having the pain. Depending on age and bone condition, a doctor could recommend surgery to the affected area. 

When I stand and help my wife make potato salad, it's almost a guaranteed thing (again), that I will be using ice packs and taking Motrin. Don't think there's any "easy/fast solution" to this problem..........unfortunately. 



nwlady said:


> Ok, it's good to know your dosage.  My question is, do you feel a noticeable difference after being on this for a time, how long if so?


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## Denise1952

There are reports of rebuilding cartilage, so I am looking into those (natural remedies like gelatin, nutritional methods).  At this point, and I am in agreement, surgery is not a consideration, although I understand it could become one.  My sister is and has been seeing doctors all along.  It's just that there are some things I think we could do to help improve her symptoms, make them less dominant.  Moving is a biggy, I had her walking but then she slacked and gave up, now I want to see if she'll swim with me.  That's all good and fine, but what we eat can, I believe, affect our symptoms.  

So yes, worse, case scenario would be eventual surgery, and/or pain medication.  Again, right now, she is not willing, and I am glad she wants to try some other things.  I'm worried right now as she is still not out of bed.  She is usually up no later then 8:30 but I am giving her til 10:30 because if she can get some good rest, that's important.  She is up and down some nights and lastnight may have been one of those.  Ultimately, it will be her call on whether or not she wants me to start doing the cooking, and taking her swimming or for little walks to begin with/swimming would be best I think, just moving around in the water may help.


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## SeaBreeze

Glucosamine/Chondroitin can help to rebuild or preserve joint cartilage.  Some people swear by bone broth.


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## d0ug

If it was me I would double to triple the gelatin. If it does not work look for a gluten intolerance because a gluten intolerance stops you from absorbing the nourishment you are eating. This is a very common problem that goes undiagnosed. Mayo clinic said that 1/3 of people have a gluten intolerance and ND doctors say it is even higher. I know personally I was 70 years old before I found I have had it all my life.


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## Butterfly

The OA got so bad in my hips I couldn't get around without a cane, and some days a walker, and I tried all kinds of remedies and alternative medicine.  Nothing gave me substantial relief.  I finally broke down and went to an orthopedic surgeon, who replaced both my hips.  I feel great now, and I can do just about anything I want to do, without pain.  My only regret is that I didn't have the surgery long before I did.


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## d0ug

Most people who have joint replacement usual have to get another because the problem is a deficiency of nutriments the body needs to repair the joints. The bad hip or knee is not the disease but a symptom of the disease treating symptoms do not fix the underlying problem. Harvard Medical said in 2002 that knee and hip replacement we useless.


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## oldman

I have PMR. Pretty close to what your sister has. Pain pills are no longer recommended for any type of arthritis conditions. They may take away the pain, but serve no other use. Maybe she should ask her rheumatologist about taking steroids like prednisone. I started on 20 mgs. and am down to 10 mgs. and will probably be going down to 5 mgs. shortly. No one should take this medication as a long term medicine, but for now, it works. Prednisone, along with other steroids, are not meant to be taken long term. 

My best to your sister.


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## Denise1952

My sister, as far as I can see, is just letting it happen.  She is willing to do the tea, so I can only hope that works.  I think some of us can get to a point where we just accept it, and even give up trying to eat right or take care of what's left.  Sorry bout the down reply here, but I am horribly discouraged about a lot of things today.  I find myself alone, and realize even the best of "friends" can't be there for you always (I did know that, so I'm not just finding out today).  Everyone is an individual, and therefor, alone.  

Back to the health thing, I hope I never give up trying to have the most quality of life possible, it's too heartbreaking to see especially those you care about, give up denise


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## QuickSilver

First line of attack... NSAIDs...   Next they will try Steroid injections directly into the joint.   They may also prescribe physical therapy.  If all that fails, they will advise a joint replacement.   A total joint replacement involves both sides of the hip (Both the ball and the socket) being replaced by a ceramic material.  They usually last about 20 years.  But of course, they do not cure the disease..as osteo can affect the other hip or the knees.  So down the road another joint replacement may be needed in another joint.   However, people report good results following a total joint replacement.


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## Denise1952

People also report success using alternative methods, just something for everyone.  Some folks are strictly conventional meds, some are strictly alternatives, I am a little of both, but if there is something alternative to try, that I believe will not harm me, I will try that first.  Not knocking what you say Quicksilver, but there are other choices, that may or may not work.  

It's a difficult decision, but the main thing we can do for our own choices, is do the research.  It isn't has hard today thanks to the internet.


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## QuickSilver

Treating DJD with a joint replacement IS curing it...  IN THAT JOINT, as it is replacing that degenerated joint.    But when you have DJD.. other joints can become impaired.   I don't have a huge faith in home remedies..  I've seen too many folks suffering when they don't have to waiting for a cure that doesn't come.


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## Denise1952

QuickSilver said:


> Treating DJD with a joint replacement IS curing it...  IN THAT JOINT, as it is replacing that degenerated joint.    But when you have DJD.. other joints can become impaired.   I don't have a huge faith in home remedies..  I've seen too many folks suffering when they don't have to waiting for a cure that doesn't come.



Like I mentioned, in not so many words, whatever works for you I agree with.


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## AprilT

nwlady said:


> darling pic HFL  Yes, anti-inflammatory foods, I need to look further into those for myself as well.  I still get a minor ache here and there.  I can't be sure how far it could go if I leave it, ignore it, so I am constantly trying for the best foods I can get hold of  ty much, denise



I just read the thread with great interest, and thought about what HFL said, so I too may revamp my diet again, I hadn't given thought to how much tomato sauce I consume, I may have to rethink my usage. Anyway, I'm including a link for food source info on anti-inflammatory foods and the ones likely to cause inflammation.  Like some others, I've tried most everything else mentioned including pool therapies, but my body is so messed up it made it worse.  And the steroid injections, will have to stop at some point, so if a change to my diet might help, I'm game.    I've thought about doing so before, but, I'm going to see if I can at least make some changes that may help and not hurt.  Also important is losing some weight if one carries more than one should, but, easier said than done, I seem to keep yoyoing though I try very hard in this area.

http://nutrition.about.com/od/dietsformedicaldisorders/a/antiinflamfood.htm

http://www.health24.com/Medical/Art...itis-with-the-Anti-Inflammatory-Diet-20130819

other fyi

http://www.arthritistoday.org/about-arthritis/types-of-arthritis/osteoarthritis/treatment-plan/


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## d0ug

I know it is every ones choice what they do but it is nice to have the information first. A lot of pain killers have devastating effect on the liver or digestion system. Steroids work my stopping the immune system response. There are people who have had to have the knees and hips done over again because they get lose. They get lose because the cause was not dealt with. A Basket ball player named Theo Ratliff who after 5 years into his corer was told his knees and joints were finished and to retire. He found a Naturopath Doctor which help him rebuild his knees and in 6 months he returned to basket ball made many millions of dollars and retired the second oldest player.


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## chic

If doctors are not making her any better she could try borage oil supplements. These are super omega 3s derived from vegetable matter and are said by some to have superior anti inflammatory benefits to those derived from fish oil.

Arnica also comes in tablet form and can be taken orally. Arnica cream - known as Arnicare - can be massaged into the affected joints to reduce pain and swelling. I can persoanlly vouch for this product because I use it all the time for injuries.

Orange essential oil is very effective for relieving symptoms of arthritis. Mix a few drops of orange essential oil into a tsp. of castor oil and massage into the affected area.

Bathing in epsom salts, especially the kind scented with vanilla helps draw toxins out of the body and soothes arthritis pain which the vanilla scent calms the mind with adds in reduction of inflammation. 

Yoga and Tai Chi. Tai Chi is a great gentle exercise. Stretching is important for arthritis. Keeps those joints moving and flexible.

These are relatively inexpensive things for your sister to try and I wish her best luck with this problem.


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## Butterfly

*Joint replacements*



d0ug said:


> Most people who have joint replacement usual have to get another because the problem is a deficiency of nutriments the body needs to repair the joints. The bad hip or knee is not the disease but a symptom of the disease treating symptoms do not fix the underlying problem. Harvard Medical said in 2002 that knee and hip replacement we useless.




I completely disagree with the idea that the replacements are "useless."  In my case, they are near miraculous.  I'd also point out that the Haravard Medical statement is 14 years old, and there have been huge improvements just in the last four years. They've refined the replacement process and the implants to where it isn't such a big deal (2 nights in the hospital for me)  and  very little post surgical pain.  And you're up and around immediately -- carefully, but you are up and around.  

AND, until a cure is found for OA, I'll sure go for treating the symptoms.  The heads of both my femurs were "mush" (highly technical medical term - HAHA) and it was either replace the joints or get a wheelchair.  OA runs in my family -- I'm normal body weight and have always been a sort of a health nut, regular exercise, good diet, supplements, etc., no other medical issues, and I still got it.  For some folks it may be a deficiency in nutrients, but in my case (and my mother's and my sister's and my neice's) it is familial and age.  I tried all the natural stuff and all the theories and alternative stuff for several years, without results.  Some times that stuff helps, sometimes it doesn't.

The new hips have literally given me my life back.  I've gone from being barely able to go to the bathroom even with my walker, to being able to do anything I want, without pain.  And I didn't have to do any steroid injections or that stuff.  Ortho guy took one look at my x-rays, said the medical equivalent of "Holy s**t!" and scheduled me for surgery.

It's wonderful to live without that grinding, crippling pain!


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## QuickSilver

Good for you Butterfly!!   I'm happy you were able to get relief... Of course no one WANTS to have double hip replacements.. it's a pretty big deal... but I see lots of folks with the results you describe.  Yes.. there have been big improvements in the prosthetics being used..  not only for hips.. but knees and now I'm seeing ankles being done more..  Very good news for folks suffering with any type of DJD (degenerative joint disease)


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## oldman

I also agree with Butterfly. We probably all know someone that has had a knee or hip replacement with much success. Mr friend had his hip and knee replaced. His surgeon told him the he'd rather do 100 hips, rather than 1 knee replacement. Can't quite figure that one out. My friend does great and in fact, he officiates high school basketball.


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## d0ug

Butterfly said:


> I completely disagree with the idea that the replacements are "useless."  In my case, they are near miraculous.  I'd also point out that the Haravard Medical statement is 14 years old, and there have been huge improvements just in the last four years. They've refined the replacement process and the implants to where it isn't such a big deal (2 nights in the hospital for me)  and  very little post surgical pain.  And you're up and around immediately -- carefully, but you are up and around.
> 
> AND, until a cure is found for OA, I'll sure go for treating the symptoms.  The heads of both my femurs were "mush" (highly technical medical term - HAHA) and it was either replace the joints or get a wheelchair.  OA runs in my family -- I'm normal body weight and have always been a sort of a health nut, regular exercise, good diet, supplements, etc., no other medical issues, and I still got it.  For some folks it may be a deficiency in nutrients, but in my case (and my mother's and my sister's and my neice's) it is familial and age.  I tried all the natural stuff and all the theories and alternative stuff for several years, without results.  Some times that stuff helps, sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> The new hips have literally given me my life back.  I've gone from being barely able to go to the bathroom even with my walker, to being able to do anything I want, without pain.  And I didn't have to do any steroid injections or that stuff.  Ortho guy took one look at my x-rays, said the medical equivalent of "Holy s**t!" and scheduled me for surgery.
> 
> It's wonderful to live without that grinding, crippling pain!



You can not fix joints with drug and surgery. The cure was found by veterinarians years ago it is called nutrition and because your doctor who knows nothing about nutrition and everything about drug will not tell you there is an alternative. There are thousands of people who have rebuilt  their knees, hips with nutrition but they did not get that information from an MD. Cortisone, prednisone, pain killers do not build cartilage and bone nutrition does.


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## QuickSilver

The average joint prostesis lasts about 15-20 years.. so depending on your age.. YES... the joint is fixed. They can loosen over time.. but that is due to wear and tear on the bone..or failure of the cement used to secure it, not due to Osteo. Remember.. Osteo Arthritis is a JOINT disease..under the umbrella of DJD (degenerative joint disease) not a bone disease as osteoporosis or other osteopathies. Removing the joint and replacing it with a prosthetic one CURES it..at least in that joint. There is however the risk that other joints could become affected and need to be replaced.

As for other remedies... Perhaps some relief may be obtained with anti-inflamatory foods, depending on how much damage has been done to the joint,  but once the cartilage and senovial fluid are gone..  they are not likely to be rebuilt by eating your veggies.. or whatever..


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## d0ug

QuickSilver said:


> The average joint prostesis lasts about 15-20 years.. so depending on your age.. YES... the joint is fixed. They can loosen over time.. but that is due to wear and tear on the bone..or failure of the cement used to secure it, not due to Osteo. Remember.. Osteo Arthritis is a JOINT disease..under the umbrella of DJD (degenerative joint disease) not a bone disease as osteoporosis or other osteopathies. Removing the joint and replacing it with a prosthetic one CURES it..at least in that joint. There is however the risk that other joints could become affected and need to be replaced.
> 
> As for other remedies... Perhaps some relief may be obtained with anti-inflamatory foods, depending on how much damage has been done to the joint,  but once the cartilage and senovial fluid are gone..  they are not likely to be rebuilt by eating your veggies.. or whatever..



When you say the they get lose is because the cause was not addressed. replacing a joint does not cure the disease it address the symptom of the disease. You can regrow cartilage even if your doctor said you can't.  If you want to learn more let me know because I have a doctor who says you don't need to suffer with these problems. 
I had bad knee shoulder and hips the doctor told me I needed surgery on my shoulder and I ask how would that fix my hip he said we will do that surgery late. I left his office and started to do research now pain free in all joints and can out work some one 20 years younger.


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## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> When you say the they get lose is because the cause was not addressed. replacing a joint does not cure the disease it address the symptom of the disease. You can regrow cartilage even if your doctor said you can't. If you want to learn more let me know because I have a doctor who says you don't need to suffer with these problems.
> I had bad knee shoulder and hips the doctor told me I needed surgery on my shoulder and I ask how would that fix my hip he said we will do that surgery late. I left his office and started to do research now pain free in all joints and can out work some one 20 years younger.



Thanks for the offer... but I'm satisfied with my knowledge.


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## oldman

nwlady said:


> I am going to be hitting the "research" today, harder then ever.  My sister might kill me if she sees this, but I have to find all I can on how to treat this, damn disease.  She has it, and yesterday, I saw her trying to get out of her chair, then when she made it, she could hardly walk or stand erect.  She is just 72, and I can't just watch this happen (get worse and worse) without trying all I can to find answers.  She said the reason it was so bad yesterday was because she had stood in the kitchen baking 2 pies.  She says the standing in one place makes her the worst.
> 
> So any helpful info, links, experience with the disease, will be welcome here.  I know about gelatin and she is on that, she drinks a tablespoon a day.  She can't afford a lot of things that are out there.
> 
> denise




Hey Denise....A few years ago, I was having all kinds of pain in my joints and to some degree, my muscles as well. Long story short, I went through a myriad of tests and the doctor diagnosed me with having PMR. I was on steroids for awhile and that helped, but a person cannot stay on them forever. So, when I stopped taking the meds, the pain came back only worse. I went to the doctor on Monday morning and I had to go have a bunch of blood work and x-rays taken, which I did that afternoon. I was gone all day yesterday and when I got home late last night my wife said the doctor called and said that I have Osteoarthritis. I asked my wife how many more pills would I have to take and she said the doctor told her to tell me that I should take two extra strength Tylenol twice a day for now, until my next visit in three weeks. Probably at that time, she will change my meds.


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## QuickSilver

Unfortunately there is NO cure for Osteo..  It's basically caused by wear and tear in the major joints.  The cartilage is worn away, the synovial fluid is gone and bone rubs on bone causing boney spurs and pain.  Anti-inflamatories help.. such as NSAIDs, Tylenol..Alieve..Naprosen  (non-steroidal anti-inflamatory drugs) but after long use they can cause stomach damage and kidney or liver damage. My husband gets good relief from Ultram.. which is a prescription med and mild narcotic.  The stronger more affective Steroids work better but long term steroid use has it's own set of problems.  Sometimes steroids are injected directly into the joint, but relief is temporary.   So actually, joint replacement for those failing all other forms of treatment is seems to bring the most and longest relief.  Most joint replacemtns can last a lifetime OR 20-30 years whichever comes first.   Over time though.. again due to wear and tear they can loosen and may have to be revised. And of course there is always the risk of postoperative infection... not huge, but it happens.      Again... there is no cure for Osteo. .. no special diet.. that will stop the process.


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## d0ug

There is no drug that will cure it you are right but nutrition can reverse it and make it go away. I know I suffered with it for years and now pain free. Anti-inflammatory prevent you from realizing the problem until it get so bad you need surgery also in the mean time your liver is being destroyed by the NSAID's 
Medical doctors have no drugs that can help but naturopaths using nutrition can.


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## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> There is no drug that will cure it you are right but nutrition can reverse it and make it go away. I know I suffered with it for years and now pain free. Anti-inflammatory prevent you from realizing the problem until it get so bad you need surgery also in the mean time your liver is being destroyed by the NSAID's
> Medical doctors have no drugs that can help but naturopaths using nutrition can.



Unfortunately... nutrition will NOT regrow lost cartilage.  But I agree... the mind can do powerful things if you believe something strongly enough.


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## d0ug

Sorry but it can regrow cartilage Dr Wallach has had patients who have regrown cartilage on artificial joints. Which pissed off the doctors.
I had the cartilage removed from a sports accident and by xray the cartilage is there now.


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## QuickSilver

This would be great is it were true.. Unlike bone.. cartilage is avascular (no or few blood vessels) It does not regenerate as bone does.. This is why after a certain age,(usually after 40)  if a person tears their meniscus..(knee cartilage) it is not repaired.. it is simply trimmed to aleviate the pain. Since nutrients are carried by blood.. and cartilage has NO or little blood supply... nutrition cannot regrow cartilage. It's simple physiology.


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## d0ug

How did cartilage grow in the first place it was not that big when I was born. It is obvious that it grows if given the right nutriments and that is not drugs. You can remove the meniscus and if you leave a stem cell behind it can be regrown if given the right nutriments.


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## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> How did cartilage grow in the first place it was not that big when I was born. It is obvious that it grows if given the right nutriments and that is not drugs. You can remove the meniscus and if you leave a stem cell behind it can be regrown if given the right nutriments.




http://www.eorthopod.com/articular-cartilage-problems-of-the-knee/topic/60



> Cartilage lacks a supply of blood or lymph vessels, which normally nourish other parts of the body. Without a direct supply of nourishment, cartilage is not able to heal itself if it gets injured. If the cartilage is torn all the way down to the bone, however, the blood supply from inside the bone is sometimes enough to start some healing inside the lesion. In cases like this, the body will form a scar in the area using a special type of cartilage called _fibrocartilage_. Fibrocartilage is a tough, dense, fibrous material that helps fill in the torn part of the cartilage. Yet it's not an ideal replacement for the smooth, glassy articular cartilage that normally covers the surface of the knee joint.



You obviously did not regrow your cartilage... you grew scar tissue..  and this will cause problems down the line.


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## d0ug

When you ask a surgeon how to cure some thing it is surgery if you ask a doctor how to cure something it is a drug. This is what a surgeon believes because he does surgery. How come they don't do knee replacements on cow,pig, and other farm animals because the vet. knows how to fix it with nutrition. This web site was not for rebuilding joints it was to talk you into surgery. I know you do not want to see or hear what a Doctor who fixes these problems wants to say.


----------



## Debby

SeaBreeze said:


> Unrefined cold pressed virgin coconut oil, turmeric (curcumin) spice, and omega 3 fish oil will all help with the inflammation of arthritis.  Beneficial supplements are MSM for inflammation pain, vitamin k2 to help calcium stay in the bones and out of the arteries, magnesium malate and vitamin D3.




I was looking to see if anyone recommended turmeric and voila, there you are SeaBreeze!  Don't forget to include the black pepper though when you recommend it otherwise the benefit is apparently minimal.


----------



## Debby

d0ug said:


> When you ask a surgeon how to cure some thing it is surgery if you ask a doctor how to cure something it is a drug. This is what a surgeon believes because he does surgery. How come they don't do knee replacements on cow,pig, and other farm animals because the vet. knows how to fix it with nutrition. This web site was not for rebuilding joints it was to talk you into surgery. I know you do not want to see or hear what a Doctor who fixes these problems wants to say.




They don't do knee replacements on animals because it's 'a waste of money', they'll just be killed anyway.  "Put them on the truck and drag them off if need be".


----------



## QuickSilver

I have no problem with people using good nutrition.. some foods may help reduce inflamation, but they don't cure anything, and it certainly doesn't hurt. Herbal remedies are ok provided you are 100% sure what you are getting.. There's not much regulation on what's in the bottle. But don't expect miracles from it. It's not going to grow your cartilage back and cure your Osteo.. but it won't hurt you.. so I guess it's up to you what you do. Doug.. you can argue all you want... but you CANNOT dispute anatomy and physiology... There is no curative blood supply in cartilage.. that goes away after childhood.. and growth stops. People after 40 simply do not have it. You can't change that.. and you can't argue it away.


----------



## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> Sorry but it can regrow cartilage Dr Wallach has had patients who have regrown cartilage on artificial joints. Which pissed off the doctors.
> I had the cartilage removed from a sports accident and by xray the cartilage is there now.




Did a tiny bit of research... Doug.. DR Wallach is a Veterinarian AND A SCAM ARTIST!! Please be careful.. he is trying to sell a product.. and it has potential dangers.. Don't be fooled.. He's a charleton.


http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/colloidalminerals.html

http://www.veterinarywatch.com/Wallach.htm

http://nutra-smart.net/al.htm#arthritis



> During his DDDL presentation, Wallach refers to a study which found that chicken cartilage cured arthritis. The study to which he was referring involved patients with Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA); an autoimmune disease that is very different and less common than osteoarthritis (which is caused by wear and tear on the joints). Wallach conveniently didn't mention this.
> 
> The bottom line is that taking type II collagen may result in mild improvements in a minority of RA sufferers, though will be useless (no better than a placebo) in most, will be far less effecive than most standard treatments, and may actually do more harm than good in many people. I don't have a problem with people trying things like this so long as they make an informed decision about it, though Wallach deliberately distorts the truth to offer false hope to many people suffering from Osteoarthritis (a completely different disease) in order to make money from their desperation and vulnerability






> Wallach and his company deliberately target people with little or no scientific background who are easy to mislead when it comes to matters of science. Most people have little understanding of how scientific methodologies are used to establish cause and effect, and it would be a very long and boring explanation to describe it in more detail. Suffice it to say, we need to look at _all _the evidence, not just part of it, before we make a conclusion about something. The simplest way to study the effects that food substances have on our health is to do so in the laboratory, either by inoculating cell cultures with food extracts, or by feeding them to rodents who have been either genetically bread to have a disease condition similar to that experienced in humans, or exposed to conditions enabling it to become diseased. These types of studies are cheap and easy, but what happens in the laboratory rarely happens the same way out in the real world. For example, some time ago I tested the effect that cocoa extract would have on leukemia cells (see pictures below that I took of them). As it turns out, it inhibited their growth and affected their shape (morphology) in a way , suggesting it was killing them through necrosis. This certainly doesn't mean that chocolate is a cure for cancer, as many other things (including urine!) would also inhibit cancer growth in cell culture studies.


----------



## d0ug

You can find all kinds of misinformation on the web. As far as some research you used is quackwatch most alternative medical practitioner are gad to be written up by this guy it means they are going a good job. I posted this before  
[h=2]the real quack is on the run[/h] 		 				 					 					 				 				 					 				 		 			 				For the people who use quack watch as a bible the end is near.
http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_a...complaint2.htm​ 
  If you look through medical websites trying to find cures you will be disappointed.
Number on caused of death
http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/de...-the-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/
Number one cause of bankruptcy
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
And no one dies from vitamins , minerals.


----------



## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> You can find all kinds of misinformation on the web. As far as some research you used is quackwatch most alternative medical practitioner are gad to be written up by this guy it means they are going a good job. I posted this before
> *the real quack is on the run*
> For the people who use quack watch as a bible the end is near.
> http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_a...complaint2.htm​
> 
> If you look through medical websites trying to find cures you will be disappointed.
> Number on caused of death
> http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/de...-the-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/
> Number one cause of bankruptcy
> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
> And no one dies from vitamins , minerals.




Just be careful.... the guy is a quack....Chicken cartilage in orange juice is not going to do a thing for you.    If your symptoms get worse.. see a real doctor.. That's all I can tell you.. the choice is yours.


----------



## d0ug

If you do not want to check it out honestly don't name call. 
Thank you Dr Wallach for my good health.


----------



## Denise1952

My sister told me yesterday she had stopped using the gelatin, which I got her started on.  The reason I believe in some things being healed is because I had a painful knuckle on my hand.  I had worked in a warehouse picking and packing bulk foods, and from over-use, somehow crippled up my hands, the knuckle getting the worst of it.  This was in 2010, and although my hands didn't have actual pain, just stiffness, that finger would just about kill me if I rolled over on it etc.  I bumped it on my steering wheel and thought I was going to run off the road it hurt so bad.  

So then I join this site and meet Doug, hear his story, and start gelatin (about 6 mon. ago now I believe).  I drink gelatin almost every day in my tea (herbal), and just after 2 months, I think it was, I noticed the pain going away, and tenderness.  It's gone now, totally.  I bumped it just yesterday, and the memory of the pain I had in it scared me so I just stood there waiting for it.  It never came.  I could say "time healed it" except for the fact that the pain was progressive, it got worse and worse since 2010, now it's gone.

Call it anything you like, or believe anything you like, but I will continue drinking gelatin (tbsp a day in my tea).

Denise

Ps On Seabreeze post, I totally eat nutritional foods as well now, I mean as much as I can find in a store since I don't have my own garden


----------



## Denise1952

QuickSilver said:


> Just be careful.... the guy is a quack....Chicken cartilage in orange juice is not going to do a thing for you.    If your symptoms get worse.. see a real doctor.. That's all I can tell you.. the choice is yours.



Hi QS,

I understand your thoughts on this, but I have to tell you that over the last couple of months, I have discovered at least one, quack cardiologist, and quite a few drug-pushers in the conventional med world.  I am not saying I think every natural med doc is right, I'm just saying there is good and bad in both sides.


----------



## QuickSilver

nwlady said:


> My sister told me yesterday she had stopped using the gelatin, which I got her started on. The reason I believe in some things being healed is because I had a painful knuckle on my hand. I had worked in a warehouse picking and packing bulk foods, and from over-use, somehow crippled up my hands, the knuckle getting the worst of it. This was in 2010, and although my hands didn't have actual pain, just stiffness, that finger would just about kill me if I rolled over on it etc. I bumped it on my steering wheel and thought I was going to run off the road it hurt so bad.
> 
> So then I join this site and meet Doug, hear his story, and start gelatin (about 6 mon. ago now I believe). I drink gelatin almost every day in my tea (herbal), and just after 2 months, I think it was, I noticed the pain going away, and tenderness. It's gone now, totally. I bumped it just yesterday, and the memory of the pain I had in it scared me so I just stood there waiting for it. It never came. I could say "time healed it" except for the fact that the pain was progressive, it got worse and worse since 2010, now it's gone.
> 
> Call it anything you like, or believe anything you like, but I will continue drinking gelatin (tbsp a day in my tea).
> 
> Denise
> 
> Ps On Seabreeze post, I totally eat nutritional foods as well now, I mean as much as I can find in a store since I don't have my own garden




Most likely time and rest of the over worked joint did the trick.  Gelatin is not going to do anything for you.  However it probabley won't hurt you so if you believe it was that no harm done.  Just be careful and if you find your symptoms returning see a real doctor.


----------



## Denise1952

QuickSilver said:


> Most likely time and rest of the over worked joint did the trick.  Gelatin is not going to do anything for you.  However it probabley won't hurt you so if you believe it was that no harm done.  Just be careful and if you find your symptoms returning see a real doctor.



I'm sorry to have to disagree, but as I mentioned, the pain increased over time, and no longer doing the job.  If you believe conventional medicine is the only way, then that is what works for you.  But you haven't walked in my shoes.  I extend the same courtesy to you in telling you to be careful with doctors who offer up nothing but surgery and pills as fix-alls.  I think we all need to be careful, and pay attention to our own bodies, not just "blindly" entrust them to someone else.

I'm looking forward to the day when we can see the kind of doctor we want to, not be forced to see a certain, type of doc because of our insurance.


----------



## QuickSilver

Obviously..... the choice is yours... good luck to you..


----------



## Denise1952

Same to you QS..


----------



## Gemini D

I shattered my left leg about 10 years ago and a few years after surgery had pain in my left foot. Went to a rheumatogist (sp) , ex-rays taken, pre-osteoporosis. I was put on vitamin D3 and within a few months pain gone. I have stayed on this since, eat a low carb diet and have very few pain days in warm weather. Winter weather or changes in the barometer do cause stiffness and pain and I take Aleve, keep my leg warm with knee socks but do move around which also helps. Staying in bed makes it worse. If I wake up stiff I use a heating pad for a while and then I'm up walking. I try to keep the mind busy so I'm not focused on my leg.


----------



## QuickSilver

Gemini D said:


> I shattered my left leg about 10 years ago and a few years after surgery had pain in my left foot. Went to a rheumatogist (sp) , ex-rays taken, pre-osteoporosis. I was put on vitamin D3 and within a few months pain gone. I have stayed on this since, eat a low carb diet and have very few pain days in warm weather. Winter weather or changes in the barometer do cause stiffness and pain and I take Aleve, keep my leg warm with knee socks but do move around which also helps. Staying in bed makes it worse. If I wake up stiff I use a heating pad for a while and then I'm up walking. I try to keep the mind busy so I'm not
> focused on my leg.



I also take vitamin D3 along with my calcium as it helps bone absorb calcium.  I don't have Osteoporosis, but like most post menopausal women I am borderline osteopenic.  Hoping to keep all the bone I have.


----------



## Denise1952

Gemini D said:


> I shattered my left leg about 10 years ago and a few years after surgery had pain in my left foot. Went to a rheumatogist (sp) , ex-rays taken, pre-osteoporosis. I was put on vitamin D3 and within a few months pain gone. I have stayed on this since, eat a low carb diet and have very few pain days in warm weather. Winter weather or changes in the barometer do cause stiffness and pain and I take Aleve, keep my leg warm with knee socks but do move around which also helps. Staying in bed makes it worse. If I wake up stiff I use a heating pad for a while and then I'm up walking. I try to keep the mind busy so I'm not focused on my leg.



Hi Gemini,

One thing my sister doesn't do enough of is move around.  I know for myself, I don't have osteo, but just in aging itself, I've noticed those aches and pains come way more if I'm not staying in motion of some sort.  I just mean walking for 30 minutes a day, or longer sometimes.  It's hard to watch someone deteriorate and not be willing to try a few things that might help them.  I keep a bottle of Aleve on hand, as well as regular aspirin.

I'm also low carb, well, I eat a ton of fruit so just the white-flour type.  I lost 10 lbs cutting out white potatos, jasmine rice, white pasta.  I still have them like once a week, but not how I was pigging them before.  I eat most of my fave vegies raw now, proteins, real butter, Oils (mainly coconut and Olive).  I think it is not only beneficial, but fun to eat well.  No hunger pains in between meals, and I rarely snack anymore, just not craving anything.  But if I want to I do, and I haven't gained weight in 6 months.  Basically started the no white flour thing the same time I did the gelatin.

Who knows, but if it works, don't fix it  Good for you, so happy to hear of your recovery, I can't imagine my whole leg being shattered.  It does get easier to eat right 90% or more of the time,  imo  Then when my sis bakes a pie, I have no guilt digging into it, LOL!!


----------



## Gemini D

Keep your body and brain as active as you can. Due to my leg injury and back surgery (rods & lots of screws) I am limited in what I can do. No long walks, working in the garden, no ladders, etc. I don't have a car and since I can't walk far or when I need things done I call for help. My kids are grown and out of town but when one does visit they are great about fixing what needs fixing.

I've been making yogurt and using in recipes. Just started making bread, low-carb, and it turned out okay but needs a bit of flavor adjusting. I do love homemade ice cream and that is my one treat using heavy cream. I'm slowly losing the 15 lbs...dropped about 5 the last couple of weeks and feel I have more energy eating less carbs.

My brother died a few months ago at 75 and the last few years it was painful to talk with him. He was not watching his diet and was now diabetic 2. I sent him easy recipes and tips which he ignored and I knew he was going downhill and I couldn't do anything. Some people cannot accept changing and although it saddens us we're not guilty for the lifestyle they've chosen.

I'm off to make some low carb peanut butter cookies...a recipe I just found earlier and want to try...


----------



## Shirley

This is a very long post so obviously I haven't taken time to read all of it. I will tell you about my experience, though. 

About fifteen years ago, I was having excruciating knee pain in my left knee. Doc said I might possibly need replacement surgery. X-ray showed nearly all the cartilage was gone. About that time, I was reading about the benefits of Gloucasomine -chondrointin .  I decided to try it. I took it for five or six years. Maybe longer, can't remember for sure.  For some reason, he X-rayed the knee again.  The X-ray showed perfect cartilage. So it worked for me. This is not "I think it did" but X-ray proof that it did.


----------



## d0ug

Some people on this post says that is impossible but I know it can be done glad to hear you are doing good. All the best to you.


----------



## Denise1952

Gemini D said:


> Keep your body and brain as active as you can. Due to my leg injury and back surgery (rods & lots of screws) I am limited in what I can do. No long walks, working in the garden, no ladders, etc. I don't have a car and since I can't walk far or when I need things done I call for help. My kids are grown and out of town but when one does visit they are great about fixing what needs fixing.
> 
> I've been making yogurt and using in recipes. Just started making bread, low-carb, and it turned out okay but needs a bit of flavor adjusting. I do love homemade ice cream and that is my one treat using heavy cream. I'm slowly losing the 15 lbs...dropped about 5 the last couple of weeks and feel I have more energy eating less carbs.
> 
> My brother died a few months ago at 75 and the last few years it was painful to talk with him. He was not watching his diet and was now diabetic 2. I sent him easy recipes and tips which he ignored and I knew he was going downhill and I couldn't do anything. Some people cannot accept changing and although it saddens us we're not guilty for the lifestyle they've chosen.
> 
> I'm off to make some low carb peanut butter cookies...a recipe I just found earlier and want to try...



I admire you a lot Gemini, you are dealing with a lot, but you try.  I think with some alternative options, unless you try, you just won't know.  Sadly, even I realize it is way easier to take a pill then to spend the time it takes to research, and find healthier choices in nutrition.

I'll never forget the doctors filling me full of anti-biotics as I had chronic sinus infections.  One time I had one for 3 months until it felt I had a head full of cement.  I didn't go back for yet another anti-biotic, instead, I went and typed in "alternative choices for sinus infection".   The first thing that popped up was Apple Cider Vinegar (as some out there start gagging) LOL!  Well, for me it was worth a try so I went straight to the cupboard, poured a tbsp of it into a glass, and just enough water to be able to get'er down.  This is no lie, I have no reason to lie, but I went back to the couch where I was lying around as my equilibrium was screwed up so bad.  I laid down, after chugging down the ACV, and within seconds (not minutes) I felt "the cement" start moving.  I knew I was either kissing my butt goodbye, or, something wonderful was happening.

In 2 days, I was well, after wanting to die for the last 3.  By the way, I do not get sinus infections any longer, haven't had one since that day.  If I feel a cold or anything like a sore throat, I take a dose.  Knock on wood


----------



## Denise1952

Shirley said:


> This is a very long post so obviously I haven't taken time to read all of it. I will tell you about my experience, though.
> 
> About fifteen years ago, I was having excruciating knee pain in my left knee. Doc said I might possibly need replacement surgery. X-ray showed nearly all the cartilage was gone. About that time, I was reading about the benefits of Gloucasomine -chondrointin .  I decided to try it. I took it for five or six years. Maybe longer, can't remember for sure.  For some reason, he X-rayed the knee again.  The X-ray showed perfect cartilage. So it worked for me. This is not "I think it did" but X-ray proof that it did.



Oh man, that is so awesome, it gave me chills, way to go Shirley, you tried and succeeded.  Only reason I don't have some bottles of that is that I can't afford it, right now  I'm used to give it to my little dog, should say, I bought food for her with those ingredients, including MSM as well:hatoff:To you Shirley!!


----------



## Denise1952

d0ug said:


> Some people on this post says that is impossible but I know it can be done glad to hear you are doing good. All the best to you.



I know to many folks, many right here on SF that have had tons of success including me now


----------



## QuickSilver

Well, as I've said... the mind is a powerful thing.. it can even grow cartilage apparently... because even the Mayo Clinic has not been able to accomplish that..

http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-p...ons-managing-articular-cartilage-defects-knee... 

But of course what does Mayo know.......


UCLA is working on it too... but hasn't quite been able to grow cartilage..  Perhaps they should give Dr. Wallach a call....  

https://www.stemcell.ucla.edu/skeletal-bone-and-cartilage


----------



## d0ug

Mayo clinic better talk to Harvard Medical.
http://www.chickencartilage.com/harvardstudy/
Harvard has also applied on a use patent for chicken cartilage.
At least they checked it out and did not believe the drug rep.

http://www.american-longevity.com/denverpost.htm


----------



## QuickSilver

If you read the link I posted earlier... The Harvard study was for Reumatoid arth.. and the results were minimal..  Wallach omitted the part that the study was NOT fOR Osteoarthritis.. They are two different diseases..  Wallach has you duped..  He has manipulated the Harvard study... and left out the key details... in other words... He's counting on you NOT understanding the principles behind these studies and how easy it is for an unscrupulous person to skew the results

Read this.... It talks all about the Harvard study.

http://nutra-smart.net/al.htm#arthritis

In fact.... HERE is the Harvard Study

http://www.chickencartilage.com/harvardstudy/

It is NOT for Osteoarthritis... and the results for RA were not much better than placebo.


----------



## QuickSilver

So how about John Hopkins??

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/stem_cell_research/coaxing_cells/joint_repair.html




> The team’s goal is to develop a new way to deliver and control the behavior of adult stem cells to restore bone and cartilage that has been damaged by disease or injury or is impaired by a genetic defect. Restoration of cartilage – the tough but elastic tissue in noses, ears and joints – would be particularly helpful because, unlike skin, cartilage does not naturally regenerate. Routine use of this procedure in humans may be many years away, Elisseeff says, but the potential benefits could be significant. For one thing, if the lab results can be replicated in humans, patients would end up with living tissue rather than metal or plastic replacement parts. “If this technique ultimately works the way we believe it will, doctors will have a new and possibly more effective option for treating severe joint injuries,” Elisseeff says. “This procedure would also help people avoid invasive surgery.”



So to tally.....  Mayo Clinic...UCLA....Harvard.... and John Hopkins has not been able to get cartilage to grow or regenerate... But Wallach.. A veterinarian can?


----------



## d0ug

All these medical hospitals make money off you being sick so just sign up and let them lead you to surgery and clean your wallet while they are doing it.
Medical system is there to make money and they will tell you anything to make a profit.


----------



## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> All these medical hospitals make money off you being sick so just sign up and let them lead you to surgery and clean your wallet while they are doing it.
> Medical system is there to make money and they will tell you anything to make a profit.



And Wallach is giving you stuff for FREE???  lol!!  No.. he's making a fortune off gullible people. Bet he's got a nice fat bank account..

But you are not understanding all those studies...They aren't pushing surgery...  They are TRYING to do research to regenerate cartilage and CANNOT as of yet..  If mayo, harvard, UCLa and Hopkins can't, what makes you think Wallach can?


----------



## d0ug

A history lesson on how the modern medicine started and then you would know what is going on.
As far as Dr. Wallach who gives 300 free lectures a year all around the world. He also does not get money from Youngevity. I get lots of free information from his free radio shows.
Modern medicine is business and you are a customer. Just do what the MD says and don't ask questions


----------



## QuickSilver

Doug... It grows because the entire body is growing.. Once we are grown and the growth plates close,  blood vessels are no longer in cartilage and it can no longer grow.  Why do other body parts stop growing and don't continue to get larger?  

Look...  I can see you don't want to listen to reason and you ignore facts..  And I have to cut you some slack... because I have never had chronic pain... if I had.. and had no medical background, I might latch on to anything I could find in hopes of relief.  There has been some doubt of the safety of some of Wallach's "cures"... But if you stick to chicken cartilage in orange juice I don't suppose you will do yourself too much harm..  Just don't ignore really serious symptoms.. and see a real doctor if they get worse.  It may save your life.   Now I am done with this thread...


----------



## QuickSilver

d0ug said:


> A history lesson on how the modern medicine started and then you would know what is going on.
> As far as Dr. Wallach who gives 300 free lectures a year all around the world. He also does not get money from Youngevity. I get lots of free information from his free radio shows.
> Modern medicine is business and you are a customer. Just do what the MD says and don't ask questions




Doug.... I have a medical background..  I have worked in medicine 40 years... I understand pathophysiology. .. I never just "do what doctos say" and not ask questions.  My doctors and i collaborate on my care..  There is nothing of any value you can tell me... and certainly nothing Wallach says makes any sense.


----------



## d0ug

I wish you all the best and hope you are never a victim of the medical system.


----------



## QuickSilver

And I wish you the best.... Hopefully if you ever become really ill you will seek medical help...


----------



## Denise1952

I think it would be interesting to know the truth about how many folks are dying due to prescription meds addiction, or just from too many pills, not to mention botched surgeries.  The truth is out there, but I have to believe, for just one thing, a person has the right to their choice of medicines.  Right now, I have no choice to see a naturoropath, or a chiropractor.  I am forced to go to doctors that continue to "try" and sell me on a pill to fix this or that, or another surgery.  I believe there is, and will always be a place for both types of medicine, but I know too that this pill & surgery stuff is getting way out of control, because we are letting it.

I'm all for a conventional doctor that is at least prescribing vitamins/nutrition.  I haven't seen much of that in my years on the planet.  I also know there are people that opted out of conventional cancer treatment, and no longer have cancer.


----------



## SeaBreeze

Debby said:


> I was looking to see if anyone recommended turmeric and voila, there you are SeaBreeze!  Don't forget to include the black pepper though when you recommend it otherwise the benefit is apparently minimal.



I remembered today to add some coarse black pepper to my turmeric Debby.


----------



## Butterfly

Thank you, Quicksilver, for being the voice of reason.  Much as I wish there was some miracle natural cure for OA, there just flat isn't.  Degenerative OA just gets worse and worse.  Certain supplements and diet may help with inflammation, but they are not going to fix the degenerated bones and joints.  

If it is bad enough in a joint that it is wrecking your life, like my hips were, the only option that works is replacement.  Nothing is going to put back together degenerated bone.


----------



## SeaBreeze

nwlady said:


> I think it would be interesting to know the truth about how many folks are dying due to prescription meds addiction, or just from too many pills, not to mention botched surgeries.  I also know there are people that opted out of conventional cancer treatment, and no longer have cancer.



Too many Denise, people die both from causes related to prescription drugs and medical "accidents".  There are times, of course that you need drugs from a doctor to deal with your condition, or surgery for something, but I would only do it if absolutely necessary.  There are people who have treated their own diseases naturally with great success, that's always an option for those interested.  It would be nice if Naturopaths were covered under health insurance.  Here's a few links with some stats.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/ne...t-journal-warn-that-hospitals-are-killing-us/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/02/27/drug-overdose.aspx

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals/


----------



## pchrise

All I can let you know about is http://www.knowthecause.com


----------



## Denise1952

SeaBreeze said:


> Too many Denise, people die both from causes related to prescription drugs and medical "accidents".  There are times, of course that you need drugs from a doctor to deal with your condition, or surgery for something, but I would only do it if absolutely necessary.  There are people who have treated their own diseases naturally with great success, that's always an option for those interested.  It would be nice if Naturopaths were covered under health insurance.  Here's a few links with some stats.
> 
> http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/ne...t-journal-warn-that-hospitals-are-killing-us/
> 
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/02/27/drug-overdose.aspx
> 
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals/



Thanks for these SB, I will take a look at each in the a.m. Just too tired tonight.  I know the numbers have got to be huge, on the deaths I mean.  I have seen folks standing in line at my new GP's office, where we are to bring any meds we are on.  I have one, but I have seen folks with large, ziplock baggies full.  I believe there are pills pushed on people from "lack of knowledge" as well as "people refusing to acknowledge they might be wrong".

I have been fortunate most of my life, good health, then I had to have a pacemaker put in.  I do feel it saved my life, but I also am torn in wondering if I had eatin better foods might it have been different for me.  But that is why I say I believe in both medicines, I think there is a time and place for both.



pchrise said:


> All I can let you know about is http://www.knowthecause.com



I haven't looked at your link yet either pc, but I love the title, yes, let's get to the cause, and work on prevention.  A bandaid won't cure an infection, it covers it while it festers unless the wound is cleaned out.

I'll see you all tomorrow, very, good discussion and I feel a lot of people could be helped by it


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## QuickSilver

Butterfly said:


> Thank you, Quicksilver, for being the voice of reason. Much as I wish there was some miracle natural cure for OA, there just flat isn't. Degenerative OA just gets worse and worse. Certain supplements and diet may help with inflammation, but they are not going to fix the degenerated bones and joints.
> 
> If it is bad enough in a joint that it is wrecking your life, like my hips were, the only option that works is replacement. Nothing is going to put back together degenerated bone.



Thanks Butterfly... however, I'm certainly not surprised.. I have been reviewing Medicare patient's hospital charts for 14 years now.... since I left bedside nursing. I cannot tell you how many seniors are brought to ER by family... half dead. It is quite obvious that they had avoided medical care and opted for self medicating and home remedies. I chalk it up to fear and distrust, as well as limited knowledge of anything medical. They buy into rumors and fearmongering while prefering to listen to friends and radio "MDs" rather than seeing a doctor.. and there is no shortage of Charletons out there very eager to take advantage of this. Unfortunately, many Seniors die needlessly when they could have been treated earlier. It's really sad.. again that's their choice.... so be it.


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## Denise1952

People are not all stupid, so why would they opt for alternatives to conventional medicine if they never experienced, or witnessed anything wrong with it?  It's long overdue for some to start taking responsibility for their own body, and what to choose in treatment.  I went most of my life just saying "ok" whatever you say doc.  Does anyone here remember Seldane?  Well, it was 9 months after I was prescribed this drug (for hives & allergy) that it was pulled from the shelves, and it was within a short time before that, my heart went wacko.

Now anyone wanting to be close-minded to other types of medicine (yes, not widely tested, and I wonder why if it's so bad, are they afraid they'll be "proven" wrong?) Oh, and regarding the above seldane info, no history of heart issues in me, or my family.

Ok, so, maybe Seldane didn't ruin my heart, and maybe the botox injections a doctor shot into my neck for a year for spasmodic torticolus (they call it) didn't cause my heart to go wacko, which again, was right after this year of botox (3 shots in one side of my neck, and 2 in the other to "kill" the nerves, ok, that'll work, but it didn't).

You talk about sad, sad is close-minded, unteachable folks, scared to death to admit they might be wrong.  If I've learned anything in my 62 years, it's I MIGHT BE WRONG!  So, I weigh out my options, and decide, at least I will decide as long as my brain is able to make my own decisions, AND, I will accept all responsibility for my own actions.

And in that responsibility, I opted to take Seldane, I opted to take injections, I opted to use apple-cider vinegar for an upset stomach lastnight instead of Imodium.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=919  PS see previous link, dates are interesting to me. My first heart problem came in 1997, and my first pacemaker was put in Nov. 97.  Just interesting at the very least, but probably just a coincidence.


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## d0ug

If any one wants to wake up and take the red pill to leave the medical matrix 
http://whale.to/a/allopathy_h.html


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## Denise1952

I made a comment lastnight on some commercial talking about a new disease I never heard of.  I mean, it may not be so new, I just hadn't heard of it.  Where do all these "new" diseases come from?  Did we always have them around since the beginning, or is something in what we do, eat, or drink cause them?  Oh, and with that, was a new drug I never heard of.  As usual they were "legal" in telling the 57 negative side-effects that are just "possible".  No worries, just "possible".  Only one in five has any of these, but hey, what if I'm the oneor someone I love.

PS which reminds me, the one that gets me is "if this lasts more then 4 hours you might want to call your doctor". 4 HOURS??


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## Vivjen

By law; every medication has to list every side effect that anybody has suffered; even if only one person...

As for curing cancer naturally; I watched by grandfather die doing just that...


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## Denise1952

I'm sorry for your loss Viv.


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## SeaBreeze

My sympathy for your loss Viv.  It's hard to watch somebody die from Cancer.  I lost my sister at the age of 42 to cancer, and my brother-in-law at the age of 65.  Both had conventional chemo/radiation treatments from regular doctors, and they suffered a lot of pain and misery before passing.  Sometimes I think it was the treatments that killed them, rather than the cancer itself.


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## Casper

_*


Butterfly said:



			I completely disagree with the idea that the replacements are "useless."  In my case, they are near miraculous.  I'd also point out that the Haravard Medical statement is 14 years old, and there have been huge improvements just in the last four years. They've refined the replacement process and the implants to where it isn't such a big deal (2 nights in the hospital for me)  and  very little post surgical pain.  And you're up and around immediately -- carefully, but you are up and around.  

AND, until a cure is found for OA, I'll sure go for treating the symptoms.  The heads of both my femurs were "mush" (highly technical medical term - HAHA) and it was either replace the joints or get a wheelchair.  OA runs in my family -- I'm normal body weight and have always been a sort of a health nut, regular exercise, good diet, supplements, etc., no other medical issues, and I still got it.  For some folks it may be a deficiency in nutrients, but in my case (and my mother's and my sister's and my neice's) it is familial and age.  I tried all the natural stuff and all the theories and alternative stuff for several years, without results.  Some times that stuff helps, sometimes it doesn't.

The new hips have literally given me my life back.  I've gone from being barely able to go to the bathroom even with my walker, to being able to do anything I want, without pain.  And I didn't have to do any steroid injections or that stuff.  Ortho guy took one look at my x-rays, said the medical equivalent of "Holy s**t!" and scheduled me for surgery.

It's wonderful to live without that grinding, crippling pain!
		
Click to expand...


Butterfly I totally agree with you. It's only about 9 weeks since my total hip replacement after being in shocking pain for 8 years. My surgeon took one look at my xrays and said the cartilage had worn away completely and I was scheduled for an operation. Best thing that has happened to me. He's going to replace the other hip some time in the new year as it was giving me some grief before my op and is gradually getting worse. It's so good to be able to walk without the pain and I look forward to having my second one, I'll be like a new woman.kay: 
*_


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## Debby

Casper said:


> _*
> 
> Butterfly I totally agree with you. It's only about 9 weeks since my total hip replacement after being in shocking pain for 8 years. My surgeon took one look at my xrays and said the cartilage had worn away completely and I was scheduled for an operation. Best thing that has happened to me. He's going to replace the other hip some time in the new year as it was giving me some grief before my op and is gradually getting worse. It's so good to be able to walk without the pain and I look forward to having my second one, I'll be like a new woman.kay:
> *_




Really happy for you Casper!  You must have an almost totally new lease on life!


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## Debby

SeaBreeze said:


> I remembered today to add some coarse black pepper to my turmeric Debby.




Lovely to hear SeaBreeze and lovely to know that we won't be hearing about any inflammatory problems from your corner of the coop as a result!  Hope you're having a lovely day.


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## SeaBreeze

Someone was asking here today about arthritis pain in another thread.  Remembered this one and thought I'd bump it up by adding to it.  I don't have arthritis yet, hopefully won't get it where it's noticeable, but I do take daily supplements as a preventative for these things.

I take a spoonful of organic Turmeric powder (inflammation), triglyceride form of Omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D3, vitamin k2, MSM, Glucosamine Sulfate, among other things.

Article on how Turmeric beats Ibuprofen for arthritis knee pain.
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/turmeric-beats-ibuprofen-arthritis-knee


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## SeaBreeze

Tart Cherries for Osteo-Arthritis pain and other health beneifits.  More here.  http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/tart-cherries-relieve-osteoarthritis-pain


If you are among the millions of Americans suffering from joint pain and *arthritis*, there's good news about a favorite summer treat. According to research from Oregon Health & Science University, tart cherries help reduce the chronic *inflammation* that leads to pain.[1]

In fact, the Oregon researchers declared that tart cherries have the "highest anti-inflammatory content of any food" and can help osteoarthritis patients manage their condition.

The study specifically dealt with tart cherries (e.g., Montmorency and Balaton) and not sweet cherries (e.g., Bing, Lambert, Rainier), although both varieties have healing benefits. Tart cherries are grown mostly in Michigan while the sweet varieties are found mostly in Washington, Oregon and Idaho.

Both types have traditionally been used to combat gout by reducing the body's levels of uric acid. 

Tart cherries, however, have higher concentrations of phenolics and anthocyanins.  These compounds have been specifically linked to high antioxidant capacity and reduced inflammation.

A 2001 cell study found that *anthocyanins from cherries were as effective as ibuprofen* and*naproxen* at suppressing the COX enzymes associated with inflammation.

In this study, 20 women aged 40 to 70 with inflammatory osteoarthritis drank tart cherry juice twice a day for three weeks. At the end of the trial, researchers found significant reductions in important inflammation markers – especially for women who had the highest inflammation levels at the start of the study.

The study authors noted that the results were promising for cherries as a natural pain reliever without the side effects associated with arthritis medications.

In a prior study, the same researchers found that *people who drank tart cherry juice while training for a long distance run reported significantly less pain* after exercise.  The Sports Nutrition Department at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center for Sports Medicine has incorporated tart cherries into the training menu of professional athletes and active clients as a natural and easy way to manage pain.

Other studies on tart cherries and osteoarthritis conducted by researchers at Baylor Research Institute[2] found that a daily dose of tart cherry extract helped reduce osteoarthritis pain by more than 20 percent.


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## jujube

Tart cherry juice is also supposed to be good for gout.

I haven't read through the seven pages of this, so I don't know if it has been addressed, but I've heard that they're linking drinking large amounts of diet cola daily to the increased chance of osteoporosis.   I've been yelling at my sister for a couple of years to stop drinking so much diet cola (1-2 two-liter bottles a day).


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## SeaBreeze

jujube said:


> Tart cherry juice is also supposed to be good for gout.



I heard that about Gout too Jujube, posted about it a long time ago.  https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...-Arthritis-Joint-Pain-and-Gout?highlight=gout

As far as diet sodas, bad news, worse than regular soda, IMO.  I'd just buy some salt and sugar free plain Seltzer water and put a touch of natural cherry, lemon, lime or cranberry juice in it.  Juices with no added sugars.


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## AutumnOfMyLife

Chiropractic care helped me very much.  Prior to chiro care I thought I was destined to be in a wheel chair soon. I could barely stand and had to use a walker to get from room to room in my small home.  Chiro care has literally changed my stamina and activity level.


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