# I wonder if they can actually mandate the vaccine...



## MarciKS (Jul 13, 2020)

*"Let me put it very clearly, you have no constitutional right to endanger the public and spread the disease, even if you disagree. You have no right not to be vaccinated, you have no right not to wear a mask, you have no right to open up your business," he said.

The show’s interviewer Jason Goodman asked his guest if the government rules "you have to be vaccinated, we have to be vaccinated.”

Dershowitz’s answer, “Absolutely.”*

https://www.newsmax.com/us/coronavi...DRzsgElg0cl5mJLGv94GJpjKuKt_8u_swZN1LYQPfFyqM


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## Pepper (Jul 13, 2020)

Hate Alan Dershowitz.  He can take a long walk on a short pier.  Egomaniac.


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## MarciKS (Jul 13, 2020)

I don't see how they could legally get away with this. Especially if someone had a bad reaction & it killed them or something. I would think the number of lawsuits would be astronomical.


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## Pepper (Jul 13, 2020)

They can't legally get away with it.  They can, however, say things like "you can't go to school w/out proof of vaccination" and that can expand widely to many other things.  They cannot, however, force you to be injected.


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## MarciKS (Jul 13, 2020)

But if we refuse he says we may not be allowed to leave our homes?? Is that legal?


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## win231 (Jul 13, 2020)

No one can force anyone to take a vaccine or drug.


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## Kaila (Jul 13, 2020)

I am curious _which _things it would be legal to require a specific vaccination for,
and how many or how few of such situations could legally require it.

Certain particular jobs?  (teaching in a public school or public university? nursing in ER? working in a prison?)
OR, perhaps..... to enter
Specified public places, that others are required to go, such as courts? city hall? motor vehicle?

I only mean those as possible examples. I am  not suggesting which places or people. Or even that it's a good way to go forward.

Just that I think Pepper is correct, in above post # 4.....

that it couldn't be legally mandatory for all, but possibly might be legally required for certain specified participation,
perhaps where others are mandated to go.

Or perhaps it would be one of multiple options.  Such as the vaccine, OR testing at certain frequent intervals.....or....or.....

I am brainstorming ideas, I am not at all, claiming to know.


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## MarciKS (Jul 13, 2020)

If they decide to mandate it for healthcare workers I'll have to find something else to do. I'm not interested in their vaccine. I was at first but not anymore.


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## Pepper (Jul 13, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> But if we refuse *he says* we may not be allowed to leave our homes?? Is that legal?


He says.  Dershowitz?  So what?  That's his opinion, which is always based on self-aggrandizement, and controversy.  Put him on 'ignore' as they say around here.


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## MarciKS (Jul 13, 2020)

I know nothing about the man so...*Shrugs* Thanks Pepper.


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## Don M. (Jul 13, 2020)

Once a vaccine is approved, it will likely take weeks, or months, for enough to be manufactured, and distributed in sufficient quantity to inoculate everyone.  I will NOT be in any big hurry to be one of the early recipients.  Given the record of the drugs currently in use, and their range of "side effects", I am going to remain a bit skeptical....until millions are given the shot with little or no after effects.   I can wear a mask, and stay "distant" for however long it takes.


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## win231 (Jul 13, 2020)

Pepper said:


> They can't legally get away with it.  They can, however, say things like "you can't go to school w/out proof of vaccination" and that can expand widely to many other things.  They cannot, however, force you to be injected.


What they do is say "You are required to.....etc" and they are relying on people's ignorance & submission to authority.
I was dating a woman from China.  Her 12 year old son was moving here to live with her.  When she enrolled him in 7th grade, the admissions office told her he was required to have a (useless) TB skin test.  He didn't want it & neither did she.  I contacted the County Health Department & found out it was not a requirement.  I also obtained written information about it & when she spoke to the school's admission office, they again told her it was required.  When she presented the written law, they changed their mind & said, "Well.....OK....uh....it's not required.....it's suggested."  They immediately enrolled him, rather than face a lawsuit they knew they'd lose.


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## win231 (Jul 13, 2020)

I think it would be akin to requiring a flu shot in order to leave your house.  Good luck with that.
If someone tried to force a vaccine on me, I'd make sure they rest in peace.


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## StarSong (Jul 14, 2020)

Look at the source.  Newsmax.  A deeply conservative site that lives to stir up its base.  Saying that the government will force vaccines on us is like shooting fish in that stir-up-the-base barrel. 

Talk about fake news.


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## MarciKS (Jul 14, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Look at the source.  Newsmax.  A deeply conservative site that lives to stir up its base.  Saying that the government will force vaccines on us is like shooting fish in that stir-up-the-base barrel.
> 
> Talk about fake news.


I have a question Star. How do you or anyone know what's "fake" news & what's not?


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## StarSong (Jul 14, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I have a question Star. How do you or anyone know what's "fake" news & what's not?


To begin with, I heavily consider the source.  Then I consider the likelihood of what is being reported.

If this were a disease with a kill rate like Ebola but far more infectious, then maybe the states could/would enforce a mandatory vaccine. But that's not true of Covid.

It's like saying that the US has the power to mandate a full curfew for all citizens. Does it? Technically yes. Under today's circumstances though, the likelihood of that is roughly zero.

Similarly, the likelihood of the US legally mandating its citizens to get vaccinated against Covid, given Covids current infectious and kill rates is also roughly zero.

That's why I call it fake news. This story isn't meant to inform about what could happen in an extreme situation, but rather to rev up the readers by implying that it's likely to happen in our current circumstances, simply because of the timing of its publishing.


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## Lovely Rita (Jul 14, 2020)

First off, no one can force anyone to take the vaccine or force anyone to stay in there home if they do not take the vaccine. Once the vaccine is in large amount and starts to be given there will be many people who refuse. Those people I suppose will continue to wear masks I would hope.


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## Pepper (Jul 14, 2020)

Lovely Rita said:


> Those people I suppose will continue to wear masks I would hope.


That's assuming they wore them in the first place; given their stance on vaccinations I'm guessing they don't.


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## AnnieA (Jul 14, 2020)

Lovely Rita said:


> ... Once the vaccine is in large amount and starts to be given there will be many people who refuse. Those people I suppose will continue to wear masks I would hope.



I won't get it for many months after it's distributed until I see if there are complications.   I've seen too many wonder drugs rolled out in my years in healthcare that breezed through clinical trials but later had to be recalled or were labeled with "black box warnings" due to dangers that were found once they were in general use.  

So I will continue to wear my mask as I have from the beginning.


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## Sunny (Jul 14, 2020)

Dershowitz is a long-time troublemaker. He loves to create outrage, and will stop at nothing.

You are absolutely right, StarSong. This item has "fake news" written all over it. Gotta keep the base stirred up!

I'm adding this afterward. Here's a little bit of what Wikipedia has to say about Dershowitz:

Dershowitz has been involved in several high-profile legal cases, including as a member of the defense team for the impeachment trial of Donald Trump.[6] As a criminal appellate lawyer, he won 13 of the 15 murder and attempted murder cases which he had handled,[7] and has represented a series of celebrity clients, including Mike Tyson, Patty Hearst, and Jim Bakker. His most notable cases included the successful appeal of Claus von Bülow's 1982 conviction for the attempted murder of his wife, Sunny, and the 1995 O. J. Simpson murder trial, in which he served on the legal "Dream Team", alongside Johnnie Cochran and F. Lee Bailey, as an appellate adviser.[8] Dershowitz was also a member of the legal defense teams for the prominent sex offenders Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein, his personal friend. In 2006 he helped to negotiate a non-prosecution agreement on Epstein's behalf.[9]


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## StarSong (Jul 14, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> I won't take it for many months after it's distributed until I see if there are complications.   I've seen too many wonder drugs rolled out in my years in healthcare that breezed through clinical trials but later had to be recalled or were labeled with "black box warnings" due to dangers that were found once they were in general use.
> 
> So I will continue to wear my mask as I have from the beginning.


Ditto.


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## Lovely Rita (Jul 14, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> I won't take it for many months after it's distributed until I see if there are complications.   I've seen too many wonder drugs rolled out in my years in healthcare that breezed through clinical trials but later had to be recalled or were labeled with "black box warnings" due to dangers that were found once they were in general use.
> 
> So I will continue to wear my mask as I have from the beginning.


I am with you. I am not going to be first in line. That is for sure.


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## AnnieA (Jul 14, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I have a question Star. How do you or anyone know what's "fake" news & what's not?



Read about an issue from left and right leaning sources, sources outside the US and then try to figure out the truth.


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## Sunny (Jul 14, 2020)

The problem is, nobody wants to be the first in line. So how will the vaccine ever be used, if that's the case?


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## AnnieA (Jul 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The problem is, nobody wants to be the first in line. So how will the vaccine ever be used, if that's the case?



One is in human trials already in the US and people volunteer for those.  There will be a lot of people who want it as soon as it's released, a lot who will get it for work and school requirements.  Then there will be those of us who are taking a wait and see stance as well as those who are anti-vaxx that will never take it.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 14, 2020)

YIPES! This will be the new debate once a vaccine hits the marketplace. Lawyers will line up at every vaccine center. We just can't stop being stupid.


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## AnnieA (Jul 14, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> YIPES! This will be the new debate once a vaccine hits the marketplace. Lawyers will line up at every vaccine center. We just can't stop being stupid.



Lawyers won't be involved.  Vaccines have liability immunity in the US.  That's why manufacturers continually pile on so many unnecessary boosters and poorly studied new ones onto the recommended schedule for children.


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## chic (Jul 14, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> But if we refuse he says we may not be allowed to leave our homes?? Is that legal?



This is my question. Some people will not be able to take the vaccine because it could make a pre existing medical worse. So will they be sentenced to life in prison in isolation? That's beyond cruel.


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## win231 (Jul 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Dershowitz is a long-time troublemaker. He loves to create outrage, and will stop at nothing.
> 
> You are absolutely right, StarSong. This item has "fake news" written all over it. Gotta keep the base stirred up!
> 
> ...


He obviously knows where the big money is.


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## AnnieA (Jul 14, 2020)

win231 said:


> He obviously knows where the big money is.



No doubt about it.


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## StarSong (Jul 14, 2020)

chic said:


> This is my question. Some people will not be able to take the vaccine because it could make a pre existing medical worse. So will they be sentenced to life in prison in isolation? That's beyond cruel.


Alan Dershowitz didn't say this was going to happen, only that the US Constitution gives states the power to vaccinate people.

Nobody is suggesting this will happen with COVID, not even Mr. Dershowitz. There's a huge gap between what could conceivably happen during a *massive crisis* and what will actually happen.


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## 911 (Jul 14, 2020)

Say what you want about Dershowitz, but he is a great Constitutional lawyer and teaches or did teach it at Harvard. He is revered with Ginsburg as the two top Constitutional attorneys in the U.S. I heard him speak once and answer questions. He never had to think or hesitate before answering. He knew and was very confident of himself. Now, as a person,  I can't say much about him because I don't know the man personally. 

Back to the question, the answer is "yes" everyone can be made to take the vaccine, unless that person can show that it wouldn't be in his best interests to do so, like maybe a medical reason or reaction to one of the chemicals in the vaccine or religious, like, perhaps the Amish. I don't know about that entirely, but it seems as though the Amish get excluded from a lot of things others are made to tolerate. I am not in anyway trying to show malice because I really like our Amish people. I am just stating what I know or think I know.

Being forced to be vaccinated came from the Supreme Court. It may have been the measles that caused the case to go before the court. We all had to be vaccinated before we could start school, didn't we?


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## 911 (Jul 14, 2020)

I was just sitting here thinking about listening to Mr. Dershowitz speak on that evening at Princeton where I listened to him. In fact, it was in the Woodrow Wilson Auditorium, which is going to be renamed and his statue removed, I think. 

When he started, he came out and introduced himself and then gave a brief bio and of course, spoke about his role in some trials where he played a key role in, like the trial of O.J. Simpson and Patty Hearst. He didn't make no bones about it, he loves to argue civil liberties cases along with anything that has to do with the 1st amendment. 

I asked him a question that made him smile and I thought to myself, "Oh, crap! He's going to make an ass out of me. I should have kept my mouth shut." But then, he starts out, "Great question."


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## win231 (Jul 14, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Lawyers won't be involved.  Vaccines have liability immunity in the US.  That's why manufacturers continually pile on so many unnecessary boosters and poorly studied new ones onto the recommended schedule for children.





911 said:


> Say what you want about Dershowitz, but he is a great Constitutional lawyer and teaches or did teach it at Harvard. He is revered with Ginsburg as the two top Constitutional attorneys in the U.S. I heard him speak once and answer questions. He never had to think or hesitate before answering. He knew and was very confident of himself. Now, as a person,  I can't say much about him because I don't know the man personally.
> 
> Back to the question, the answer is "yes" everyone can be made to take the vaccine, unless that person can show that it wouldn't be in his best interests to do so, like maybe a medical reason or reaction to one of the chemicals in the vaccine or religious, like, perhaps the Amish. I don't know about that entirely, but it seems as though the Amish get excluded from a lot of things others are made to tolerate. I am not in anyway trying to show malice because I really like our Amish people. I am just stating what I know or think I know.
> 
> Being forced to be vaccinated came from the Supreme Court. It may have been the measles that caused the case to go before the court. We all had to be vaccinated before we could start school, didn't we?


I never got any vaccine before starting school.
And you are mistaken about being required to take a vaccine:
https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-vaccine-government-mandate-it-possible-1506548


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## Aneeda72 (Jul 14, 2020)

win231 said:


> No one can force anyone to take a vaccine or drug.


People don’t vaccinate their children.


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## Aneeda72 (Jul 14, 2020)

911 said:


> Say what you want about Dershowitz, but he is a great Constitutional lawyer and teaches or did teach it at Harvard. He is revered with Ginsburg as the two top Constitutional attorneys in the U.S. I heard him speak once and answer questions. He never had to think or hesitate before answering. He knew and was very confident of himself. Now, as a person,  I can't say much about him because I don't know the man personally.
> 
> Back to the question, the answer is "yes" everyone can be made to take the vaccine, unless that person can show that it wouldn't be in his best interests to do so, like maybe a medical reason or reaction to one of the chemicals in the vaccine or religious, like, perhaps the Amish. I don't know about that entirely, but it seems as though the Amish get excluded from a lot of things others are made to tolerate. I am not in anyway trying to show malice because I really like our Amish people. I am just stating what I know or think I know.
> 
> Being forced to be vaccinated came from the Supreme Court. It may have been the measles that caused the case to go before the court. We all had to be vaccinated before we could start school, didn't we?


A lot of children are not vaccinated before starting school for a variety of reasons and are not excluded.


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## Pepper (Jul 14, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> A lot of children are not vaccinated before starting school for a variety of reasons and are not excluded.


If the reason is the whim of the parents I think they should be excluded.  For medical reasons, of course not.


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## Aneeda72 (Jul 14, 2020)

Pepper said:


> If the reason is the whim of the parents I think they should be excluded.  For medical reasons, of course not.


Disabled children are not able, often, to get them.  Religious reasons, and sometimes parents object.  I think the whopping cough is the most objectionable one.


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## JaniceM (Jul 14, 2020)

911 said:


> Back to the question, the answer is "yes" everyone can be made to take the vaccine, unless that person can show that it wouldn't be in his best interests to do so, like maybe a medical reason or reaction to one of the chemicals in the vaccine or religious, like, perhaps the Amish. I don't know about that entirely, but it seems as though the Amish get excluded from a lot of things others are made to tolerate. I am not in anyway trying to show malice because I really like our Amish people. I am just stating what I know or think I know.



Too many people get away with wrongs in the name of 'religion.'  Individuals should not be allowed to play 'typhoid mary' with other people's lives.


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## Butterfly (Jul 14, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> But if we refuse he says we may not be allowed to leave our homes?? Is that legal?



Depends on what kind of laws "they" make about it.


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## chic (Jul 15, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Alan Dershowitz didn't say this was going to happen, only that the US Constitution gives states the power to vaccinate people.
> 
> Nobody is suggesting this will happen with COVID, not even Mr. Dershowitz. There's a huge gap between what could conceivably happen during a *massive crisis* and what will actually happen.



Yes, I know he said this but I cannot locate under what article, paragraph, section, etc. of the constitution this is found. I can't imagine our founding fathers would have been concerned in such a thing.


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## Warrigal (Jul 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> No one can force anyone to take a vaccine or drug.


My daughter is a nurse. 
She is required to have a barrage of vaccinations as part of her conditions of employment.
Hubby and I had to show proof that we have been vaccinated this year for influenza to be allowed to visit his 93 year old auntie in a nursing home.
It is no big deal and good public health policy.


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## StarSong (Jul 15, 2020)

chic said:


> Yes, I know he said this but I cannot locate under what article, paragraph, section, etc. of the constitution this is found. I can't imagine our founding fathers would have been concerned in such a thing.


Apparently it's based on a 1905 Supreme Court interpretation of the 10th Amendment.  

That said, it appears Dershowitz's interpretation that vaccinations can be forced on Americans isn't necessarily unanimous.
Here's another take on it: 
https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-vaccine-government-mandate-it-possible-1506548


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## CarolfromTX (Jul 15, 2020)

I'll volunteer to be first in line. All y'all just love to speculate in the most negative way possible.


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## MarciKS (Jul 15, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> My daughter is a nurse.
> She is required to have a barrage of vaccinations as part of her conditions of employment.
> Hubby and I had to show proof that we have been vaccinated this year for influenza to be allowed to visit his 93 year old auntie in a nursing home.
> It is no big deal and good public health policy.


I disagree with that. Some of us can't take the flu shot. And it's a very big deal if I can't visit a loved one in a home without being forced to take a vaccine that could harm me. That's just ridiculous. And being forced to take vaccinations as a condition of employment? I've never heard of that. I don't see how they can legally get away with that.


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## StarSong (Jul 15, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I disagree with that. Some of us can't take the flu shot. And it's a very big deal if I can't visit a loved one in a home without being forced to take a vaccine that could harm me. That's just ridiculous. And being forced to take vaccinations as a condition of employment? I've never heard of that. I don't see how they can legally get away with that.


Different countries have different laws.


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## MarciKS (Jul 15, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Different countries have different laws.


I'm glad I don't live there. LOL


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## Butterfly (Jul 15, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Apparently it's based on a 1905 Supreme Court interpretation of the 10th Amendment.
> 
> That said, it appears Dershowitz's interpretation that vaccinations can be forced on Americans isn't necessarily unanimous.
> Here's another take on it:
> https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-vaccine-government-mandate-it-possible-1506548




Though I doubt that the US can forcibly hold you down and vaccinate you, I bet they can, as the article StarSong cites above, impose consequences if you refuse to be vaccinated, as in requiring certain vaccinations for school and work, etc.  It's not the same thing as forcible vaccination.  Many, if not most, states require vaccinations of children to enroll them in schools, and many workplaces require vaccinations as eligibility to work and covid vaccination could just be added to the list.  Health insurance companies might be able to require vaccination, or exclude coverage covid; I don't really know about this, but I can see them trying to do so.

I do note that the article cited above says the plaintiff wasn't forcibly vaccinated, but had to pay a $5 fine as a consequence of refusal, which is quite a different thing.


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## Becky1951 (Jul 15, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> I'll volunteer to be first in line. All y'all just love to speculate in the most negative way possible.


Good for you! You can be our guinea pig.


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## win231 (Jul 15, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Though I doubt that the US can forcibly hold you down and vaccinate you, I bet they can, as the article StarSong cites above, impose consequences if you refuse to be vaccinated, as in requiring certain vaccinations for school and work, etc.  It's not the same thing as forcible vaccination.  Many, if not most, states require vaccinations of children to enroll them in schools, and many workplaces require vaccinations as eligibility to work and covid vaccination could just be added to the list.  Health insurance companies might be able to require vaccination, or exclude coverage covid; I don't really know about this, but I can see them trying to do so.
> 
> I do note that the article cited above says the plaintiff wasn't forcibly vaccinated, but had to pay a $5 fine as a consequence of refusal, which is quite a different thing.


$5.00? fine?  They'd have to get the $5.00 out of me by force.  And it would be the hardest $5.00 they ever earned.


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## 911 (Jul 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> I never got any vaccine before starting school.
> And you are mistaken about being required to take a vaccine:
> https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-vaccine-government-mandate-it-possible-1506548


REALLY??

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/mandatory-vaccination-legal-time-epidemic/2006-04


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## JaniceM (Jul 15, 2020)

911 said:


> REALLY??
> 
> https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/mandatory-vaccination-legal-time-epidemic/2006-04


*Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. *

We were taught that in the 5th grade.


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## StarSong (Jul 15, 2020)

911 said:


> REALLY??
> 
> https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/mandatory-vaccination-legal-time-epidemic/2006-04


I don't know what vaccines most Boomers had before starting kindergarten.  Probably only smallpox (I still have a tiny scar) and maybe DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus).  Not all kids got the latter shot because I remember families who had whooping cough (pertussis) in the late 50s and recall their houses being quarantined.

Polio, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella) mumps, chicken pox and other vaccines came along after I started Kindergarten in 1957.

I vividly recall everyone in the neighborhood lining up at the local high school to get our polio sugar cube vaccine doses.

p.s.  Thank you for the fascinating link on the legality of enforced vaccinations!


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## 911 (Jul 15, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> *Real liberty for all cannot exist if each individual is allowed to act without regard to the injury that his or her actions might cause others; liberty is constrained by law. *
> 
> We were taught that in the 5th grade.



I totally agree with this statement. 

Most people are relying on the 14th Amendment to allow them to be able to forego being vaccinated, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this twice and in both cases ruled that to prevent a pandemic from happening within the country, the government may mandate that all citizens be vaccinated. It's a done deal. 

I think people that rely on Newsweek, or other publications, or even any of the news channels should try looking up supreme court rulings. I believe they have ruled on just about everything at one time or another. There has been way too much political involvement with the virus being used as a hatchet in attempt to get favors from voters.


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## 911 (Jul 15, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I don't know what vaccines most Boomers had before starting kindergarten.  Probably only smallpox (I still have a tiny scar) and maybe DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus).  Not all kids got the latter shot because I remember families who had whooping cough (pertussis) in the late 50s and recall their houses being quarantined.
> 
> Polio, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella) mumps, chicken pox and other vaccines came along after I started Kindergarten in 1957.
> 
> ...


I had to have the one that leaves the scar on my left shoulder, which I believe was for Smallpox. The school would not allow a child to attend that did not show their scar or the certificate.


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## StarSong (Jul 15, 2020)

911 said:


> I totally agree with this statement.
> 
> Most people are relying on the 14th Amendment to allow them to be able to forego being vaccinated, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on this twice and in both cases ruled that to prevent a pandemic from happening within the country, the government may mandate that all citizens be vaccinated. It's a done deal.
> 
> *I think people that rely on Newsweek,* or other publications, or even any of the news channels should try looking up supreme court rulings. I believe they have ruled on just about everything at one time or another. There has been way too much political involvement with the virus being used as a hatchet in attempt to get favors from voters.


Ouch. I was merely presenting a publication with a different opinion than what was presented by Mr. Dershowitz.

I stand by what I said though. I do not see 50 states mandating Covid-19 vaccines, particularly not 20 minutes after big pharma and the FDA deem them safe and effective.  Any state that did would see tremendous push-back from their citizens.

Mandated vaccines would wind up back in the Supreme Court with a slightly new wrinkle from the decision made 115 years ago.

Vast numbers of Americans won't don masks when out in public, nor stay 6 feet from strangers, avoid parties, bars or other social gatherings.  I think it's delusional to imagine they'll willingly roll up their sleeves to get injections they mistrust. Mandate or no mandate.

Please understand that I am not anti-vaccine. I get them all, including the latest 2 dose shingles vax, pneumonia vax, etc. I would wait a short while if a COVID vaccine came out. Long enough to feel comfortable that the vax was safe, just as I have with other new vaccines.

I'm merely observing the state of our country and considering the likelihood that a mandated vaccine would be trusted or graciously accepted by our population. We have developed healthy, well-founded mistrusts of government and big pharma.  So we won't be happily lining up as we did for polio sugar cubes.


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## 911 (Jul 15, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Ouch. I was merely presenting a publication with a different opinion than what was presented by Mr. Dershowitz.
> 
> I stand by what I said though. I do not see 50 states mandating Covid-19 vaccines, particularly not 20 minutes after big pharma and the FDA deem them safe and effective.  Any state that did would see tremendous push-back from their citizens.
> 
> ...


No, no. I wasn’t arguing with you, just wanted to define a better resource for getting correct information. I have too much respect for you to do that. I notice that some posters use Newsweek, which at one time had a very good reputation for being centrist in politics, but has now gone in a different direction like so many other news outlets. Besides, I have always thought that going to the source to get my information worked better.

I am a Libertarian, so I have to be more careful when stating what I know to be true. Last nigh, for example, I was speaking to an old friend and we were discussing the virus. A lady nearby overheard us talking and she said to her husband (I think) “A couple more Democrats that have no clue.” We looked at each other and just shook our head and rolled our eyes.

I noticed that a lot of people do not like Mr. Dershowitz, but if they ever heard him speak, I am sure that they would change their mind. He is a very good orator.


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## StarSong (Jul 15, 2020)

911 said:


> No, no. I wasn’t arguing with you, just wanted to define a better resource for getting correct information. I have too much respect for you to do that. I notice that some posters use Newsweek, which at one time had a very good reputation for being centrist in politics, but has now gone in a different direction like so many other news outlets. Besides, I have always thought that going to the source to get my information worked better.
> 
> I am a Libertarian, so I have to be more careful when stating what I know to be true. Last nigh, for example, I was speaking to an old friend and we were discussing the virus. A lady nearby overheard us talking and she said to her husband (I think) “A couple more Democrats that have no clue.” We looked at each other and just shook our head and rolled our eyes.
> 
> I noticed that a lot of people do not like Mr. Dershowitz, but if they ever heard him speak, I am sure that they would change their mind. He is a very good orator.


He's managed a lot of legal cases in Los Angeles.  I have great respect for his intelligence and grasp of Constitutional Law.


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## Butterfly (Jul 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> $5.00? fine?  They'd have to get the $5.00 out of me by force.  And it would be the hardest $5.00 they ever earned.



They'd just ultimately throw you in jail for contempt; or record a judgment for the $5.00 plus fees and costs and slap a lien against your property; or send out the sheriff to execute against any property you had; or all of the above. 

You really can't win against a Supreme Court order -- there's nobody left to appeal to unless you've got God's zip code.


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## win231 (Jul 15, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> They'd just ultimately throw you in jail for contempt; or record a judgment for the $5.00 plus fees and costs and slap a lien against your property; or send out the sheriff to execute against any property you had; or all of the above.
> 
> You really can't win against a Supreme Court order -- there's nobody left to appeal to unless you've got God's zip code.


"Contempt?"  LOL!!!  That would be the least of their worries.
This ain't Nazi Germany.  Nobody vaccinates or drugs me without my consent.

I just recalled a similar topic from 20 years ago. 
My job sent me to a medical facility for an MRI.  While I was waiting to go into that tunnel, a nurse approached with a tray with a needle & IV equipment.  I asked, "What's that for?"
She said, "You need to be sedated for the MRI."
I asked, "Why?"
She said, "You must not move during the MRI."
I said, "Sedation won't be necessary; I won't move. I had an MRI previously without sedation & I didn't move."
She said, "Well, if you move, we would have to start the MRI over, so we need to sedate you."
She obviously wasn't getting the message, so I put it more clearly for her.
I said, "You're not listening to me, so let me put it this way: _ "The first person who comes near me with IV equipment after I've said "no" will be *permanently sedated by me."*_
She got the message & said, "Uh...well....you don't have to be that way....we can do the MRI without sedation.....if you want."


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## Pepper (Jul 15, 2020)




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## Ladybj (Jul 15, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The problem is, nobody wants to be the first in line. So how will the vaccine ever be used, if that's the case?


Let the people that created the vaccine be the first in line to get it... jmo


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2020)

Ladybj said:


> Let the people that created the vaccine be the first in line to get it... jmo


*They usually are*.  The amount of these scientists are not enough.


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## StarSong (Jul 16, 2020)

Pepper said:


> *They usually are*.  The amount of these scientists are not enough.


Better yet, let the CEOs of the pharma corporations and the politicians - and their families - take the lead.  
That would inspire the most confidence.


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## Butterfly (Jul 16, 2020)

win231 said:


> "Contempt?"  LOL!!!  That would be the least of their worries.
> This ain't Nazi Germany.  Nobody vaccinates or drugs me without my consent.
> 
> I just recalled a similar topic from 20 years ago.
> ...




Apples and oranges.


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## win231 (Jul 16, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Apples and oranges.


Nope.  Medical procedure, drug, vaccine.  The topic was "Can or can't mandate."


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## StarSong (Jul 17, 2020)

win231 said:


> Nope.  Medical procedure, drug, vaccine.  The topic was "Can or can't mandate."


Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.  

That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)


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## Butterfly (Jul 17, 2020)

win231 said:


> Nope.  Medical procedure, drug, vaccine.  The topic was "Can or can't mandate."



Perhaps, but my reply about further judicial action referred to the payment of the $5 fine. The court didn't say he had to get the vaccine, it said he had to pay a $5 fine for his refusal to do so. Two different things.


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## MarciKS (Jul 17, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.
> 
> That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)


One time I was in on an overnight stay & the facility wanted me to take a med for blood clots. First of all....I had not idea if I could take it or not. Never had it before. Secondly I asked the nurse why I couldn't just get up & walk. I wasn't injured & hadn't had any procedures. She sounded surprised & asked "you want to?" I was like yeah instead of a pill.


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## win231 (Jul 17, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> One time I was in on an overnight stay & the facility wanted me to take a med for blood clots. First of all....I had not idea if I could take it or not. Never had it before. Secondly I asked the nurse why I couldn't just get up & walk. I wasn't injured & hadn't had any procedures. She sounded surprised & asked "you want to?" I was like yeah instead of a pill.


Every pill/procedure/test is a bill to Medicare.  That's why they're encouraged whether they're necessary or not; unless a patient says "No."  Most don't because they aren't aware of the motivation.


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## JaniceM (Jul 17, 2020)

win231 said:


> Every pill/procedure/test is a bill to Medicare.  That's why they're encouraged whether they're necessary or not; unless a patient says "No."  Most don't because they aren't aware of the motivation.


Sometimes no doesn't cut it either.. and it can also occur when a person is self-pay.  
One stupid experience I had:  I noticed a pregnancy test was on the itemized bill-  AFTER I'd been asked if I might be pregnant and replied definitely not!  But they did the test anyway, and tried to charge me for it!!!


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## Sunny (Jul 18, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Whether a hospital can mandate being medicated as part and parcel of a procedure they're offering, versus whether a state government can mandate a vaccine are indeed apples and oranges.
> 
> That said, I have also successfully declined medications and procedures while hospitalized. They sure don't take kindly to it, do they? (Darn those patients thinking they have rights over their own bodies!)



Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low."  No symptoms at all.  I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.

Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness.  I found another doctor.


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## win231 (Jul 18, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low."  No symptoms at all.  I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.
> 
> Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness.  I found another doctor.


Their egos often are a problem.  After doctors at Kaiser sent my mom home with gas pills twice, I noted her fever & I could see a bulge in her night gown on her right side.  I took her back to Kaiser & I said to the doctor, "Have you checked her for appendicitis?"  He replied, "What medical school did you graduate from?"  She was later rushed into surgery after her appendix burst.  She could have died.


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## JaniceM (Jul 18, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low."  No symptoms at all.  I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.
> 
> Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness.  I found another doctor.


Right on for standing your ground with this!!!!   
There are simply too many people who don't even consider questioning an option.


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## MarciKS (Jul 18, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Hey, I once got an angry lecture from a nurse when I politely declined a prescription from a doctor who wanted me to take thyroid medication, because my thyroid level was "borderline low."  No symptoms at all.  I think we are all somewhat overmedicated, and will not take anything without being given a good reason for it.
> 
> Anyway, this nurse was horrified that I had dared question the judgement of his holiness.  I found another doctor.


I feel they often shove too many pills at people when they get older instead of trying to find other ways to help us through stuff. Luckily my doctor is perfectly ok with me trying to lose weight  get my A1C under control on my own rather than trying to talk me into medicine I'm trying to avoid.


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## garyt1957 (Jul 19, 2020)

IF the vaccine is pretty much 100% effective like the measles and some other vaccines it won't matter much if some people choose not to get it. They'll only be risking their own health and their like minded brethren. That's fine with me.


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## MarciKS (Jul 19, 2020)

garyt1957 said:


> IF the vaccine is pretty much 100% effective like the measles and some other vaccines it won't matter much if some people choose not to get it. They'll only be risking their own health and their like minded brethren. That's fine with me.


Are you speaking about the ones who simply don't want it? Or are you lumping the ones who don't want it because they may have adverse reactions into that lovely wish?


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## JaniceM (Jul 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> Their egos often are a problem.  After doctors at Kaiser sent my mom home with gas pills twice, I noted her fever & I could see a bulge in her night gown on her right side.  I took her back to Kaiser & I said to the doctor, "Have you checked her for appendicitis?"  He replied, "What medical school did you graduate from?"  She was later rushed into surgery after her appendix burst.  She could have died.


One of the hairiest experiences I've had- of many-  a few years ago:  I was expected to go through immediate, emergency surgery that would have been complicated and dangerous _on the word of a Physician's Assistant.  _She said if I didn't go along with it, I 'could die.' An attendant rushed into the exam room to prep me for surgery, and I walked out.

After they shot me up with morphine and I somehow made it home, I was unconscious for more than 15 hours..  but the symptoms were gone when I regained consciousness.  As it's not something that could correct itself, either it was "God" OR "the p.a. was wrong."  I don't care which one you pick, but to show what kind of environment this is, a neighbor gushed "Physician's Assistants have _almost as much training as doctors!"  _ 

Worsening matters, while I haven't seen any recent updates, a couple of years ago the state was planning to give the full range of nurses and even 'social workers' the authority to prescribe..  as if the "drugging" wasn't already bad enough around here.


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## Carymeaway (Jul 19, 2020)

Lovely Rita said:


> First off, no one can force anyone to take the vaccine or force anyone to stay in there home if they do not take the vaccine. Once the vaccine is in large amount and starts to be given there will be many people who refuse. Those people I suppose will continue to wear masks I would hope.


I won't wear one unless I need something from the business.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jul 19, 2020)

My son, a few family members and others I know are opposed to taking the vaccine, especially if it's being forced. Part of the reason is distrust and I understand that. My son feels that health officials are not emphasizing building the immune system enough. We know, however, that no matter what, some people have compromised immune systems due to illnesses and not much will change that. My response to possible mandatory COVID vaccines was "We'll see!".


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## garyt1957 (Jul 20, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Are you speaking about the ones who simply don't want it? Or are you lumping the ones who don't want it because they may have adverse reactions into that lovely wish?


First, I didn't wish anything on anybody. I simply said the ones who refuse it will only be risking their health and that of others who choose not to get it. That's on them. As for the few people who won't be able to get it, hopefully the fact that the vast majority of people that do will offer some form of herd immunity.


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## MarciKS (Jul 20, 2020)

garyt1957 said:


> First, I didn't wish anything on anybody. I simply said the ones who refuse it will only be risking their health and that of others who choose not to get it. That's on them. As for the few people who won't be able to get it, hopefully the fact that the vast majority of people that do will offer some form of herd immunity.


Ok. I wasn't sure if that's what you meant or not. Thanks for clarifying.


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## JaniceM (Jul 24, 2020)

911 said:


> Say what you want about Dershowitz, but he is a great Constitutional lawyer and teaches or did teach it at Harvard. He is revered with Ginsburg as the two top Constitutional attorneys in the U.S. I heard him speak once and answer questions. He never had to think or hesitate before answering. He knew and was very confident of himself. Now, as a person,  I can't say much about him because I don't know the man personally.
> 
> Back to the question, the answer is "yes" everyone can be made to take the vaccine, unless that person can show that it wouldn't be in his best interests to do so, like maybe a medical reason or reaction to one of the chemicals in the vaccine or religious, like, perhaps the Amish. I don't know about that entirely, but it seems as though the Amish get excluded from a lot of things others are made to tolerate. I am not in anyway trying to show malice because I really like our Amish people. I am just stating what I know or think I know.
> 
> Being forced to be vaccinated came from the Supreme Court. It may have been the measles that caused the case to go before the court. We all had to be vaccinated before we could start school, didn't we?




It occurred to me:  one area where I lived back east had an Amish community somewhere in the area..  but they did go out to grocery stores, etc.  

Also, I don't know when the Supreme Court started requiring vaccines, but for some unknown reason we didn't get measles vaccines even though they had become available.  I had such a bad case of measles that I barely pulled through.  The only vaccines I had before starting school were polio and DPT.  
But as for religious exemptions, one classmate's family belonged to the Christian Science religion (feel free to correct my spelling), I have no idea what she did or didn't do because people weren't always yammering about their religions.  I didn't even know what religion she was til many years later.


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## Warrigal (Jul 26, 2020)

Getting back to mandating vaccination. In the past I decided against measles immunisation for my son. His older sister had already had measles before the first measles vaccine became available. From memory, there were some problems with side effects so I decided against it for the boy.

I knew all about the associated risks of measles and they were sometimes very serious but they were not all that common. So I decided not to risk the less well known effects of the vaccine. AT THAT TIME. Later I would not have hesitated.

Right now people are worrying about the unknown effects of an as yet unavailable new vaccine for a new virus. That is perfectly understandable.

At 77 years old, if the researchers wanted any guinea pigs in my age bracket I would volunteer myself. Someone has to do it and if in my twilight years I can help in this endeavour I am willing to take the risk. My life has been blessed so far and I think I owe a debt that I have yet to repay.

For the record I don't think that compulsory vaccination is acceptable but I do think that mass immunisation programs are very important. This is how diseases like polio were brought under control and the reason why cervical cancer is now absent in younger women in Australia.


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