# Federal Indictments of George Floyd's killers



## ohioboy (May 7, 2021)

> A federal grand jury in Minnesota has indicted Derek Chauvin, the fired Minneapolis officer convicted in the death of George Floyd, and three other ex-officers on civil rights charges.



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george...minneapolis-officers-civil-rights-violations/


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## win231 (May 7, 2021)

None of those 4 dirtbags should ever see the outside of a prison.


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## Aunt Marg (May 7, 2021)

win231 said:


> None of those 4 dirtbags should ever see the outside of a prison.


You got that right.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 8, 2021)

I always remember the comment of a police officer, talking about crime. He was asked why he only patrol black areas of a city, He answered, "because that's where the crime is". I know my fellow Caucasians, none wear halos. But the cop's comment is you find a black, you find crime does lead to oppression of blacks, who aren't involved with crime. The police have a mind set. Probably since blacks are so often arrested for drug related offenses. No, I don't think every cop is a hooded, white supremacist, but you have ask why are so many blacks protesting bad cop behavior? What do they get about protesting? There's no money in it, you're not going to get a more lenient sentence, if you break the law........
How do you know blacks don't have a legitimate gripe about the police?
Maybe if your skin wasn't white, you could answer that? What do our fellow black SF people have to say?


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## Nathan (May 8, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> But the cop's comment is you find a black, you find crime...


The mindset is prevalent among many many Whites, who have never given a moment's thought to what it would be like to be poor, especially as a result of 400+ years of racism.
My fishing partner/neighbor is a retired correctional officer- he recently made comment that Blacks commit more crime, that's why there's more of them in prison.       I knew that nothing I could say would reach past his blinders.


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## Gaer (May 8, 2021)

It's been over a year now.  We make the worst criminals into civil rights martyrs.
Justice was served.  It's over.  Let it go.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

Gaer said:


> It's been over a year now.  We make the worst criminals into civil rights martyrs.
> Justice was served.  It's over.  Let it go.


Are you kidding me? If he had just been arrested and gone to jail that would be different. Instead he lost his life for no real reason other than one man's hatred. He is in essence a martyr.


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## Gaer (May 8, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> Are you kidding me? If he had just been arrested and gone to jail that would be different. Instead he lost his life for no real reason other than one man's hatred. He is in essence a martyr.


Yes, and justice was served!  It's time to get beyond this.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

Gaer said:


> Yes, and justice was served!  It's time to get beyond this.


It's time to get beyond this as well as all the Covid stuff but people here seem determined to squabble over it. LOL!


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## hollydolly (May 8, 2021)

Gaer said:


> Yes, and justice was served!  It's time to get beyond this.


Justice hasn't been served yet..not until those who killed George Floyd are rightly sentenced


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## Been There (May 8, 2021)

The indictments were expected. Why the Feds took so long was due to waiting on the outcome of Chauvin's trial. If I was other than Chauvin, I would request a bench trial, unless I could cut a good deal with the Prosecutor.


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Justice hasn't been served yet..not until those who killed George Floyd are rightly sentenced



Especially since the Feds are _not_ charging murder or any type of homicide, any legal accountability must be presented. Murder can be a federal crime, depending on the facts, but not in this case.


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## hollydolly (May 8, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Especially since the Feds are _not_ charging murder or any type of homicide, any legal accountability must be presented. Murder can be a federal crime, depending on the facts, but not in this case.


Unfortunately the American justice system is beyond my knowledge so I can't make any debate about this other than what I've already seen or read in the media


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Unfortunately the American justice system is beyond my knowledge so I can't make any debate about this other than what I've already seen or read in the media



Press release from the feds. In the U.S. the Federal government and the States are known as "Separate/Dual Sovereigns", both can charge for the same crime and it does not trigger Double Jeopardy, it's just in this instance, it does not fall under Federal murder jurisdiction even though the charges are from the same "Offenses".

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four...ted-federal-civil-rights-charges-death-george


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## Elsie (May 8, 2021)

I'm so tired of the incongruous push that Policeman bad, persons of color good.


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## 911 (May 8, 2021)

I find it ironic that the FBI and the DOJ, both being corrupt, are actually handing down *any* indictments.


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## JimBob1952 (May 8, 2021)

Nathan said:


> The mindset is prevalent among many many Whites, who have never given a moment's thought to what it would be like to be poor, especially as a result of 400+ years of racism.
> My fishing partner/neighbor is a retired correctional officer- he recently made comment that Blacks commit more crime, that's why there's more of them in prison.       I knew that nothing I could say would reach past his blinders.



It's a chicken and egg thing.  Black people make up about 13 percent of the population but they commit more than half of all violent crimes.  Why is that?  Well, there are lots of reasons, but historical racism is certainly among them.


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## JimBob1952 (May 8, 2021)

What I mean by that is that racism has kept people down, kept them poor, kept them from having opportunities that others have had.  Poverty generates crime.  I'm not making excuses for anyone who commits a crime, especially a violent crime.


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## Tish (May 8, 2021)

win231 said:


> None of those 4 dirtbags should ever see the outside of a prison.


Amen to that.


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## Keesha (May 8, 2021)

Elsie said:


> I'm so tired of the incongruous push that Policeman bad, persons of color good.


That’s the message you got from this trial?


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## hollydolly (May 8, 2021)

Elsie said:


> I'm so tired of the incongruous push that Policeman bad, persons of color good.


What would your opinion have been if the policeman had been Black ?..just playing devils advocate


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

Elsie said:


> I'm so tired of the incongruous push that Policeman bad, persons of color good.


This has nothing to do with a person of color. If he'd been white it would've been the same deal. You kill someone in cold blood for no other reason than your personal agenda of hate then they become a martyr.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> What would your opinion have been if the policeman had been Black ?..just playing devils advocate


Or if the cop was black and the suspect who was killed white?


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## jerry old (May 8, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> It's a chicken and egg thing.  Black people make up about 13 percent of the population but they commit more than half of all violent crimes.  Why is that?  Well, there are lots of reasons, but historical racism is certainly among them.



( These are not my opinion, rather opinions gathered over 25 years of involvement with black people on probation)

I was aware of that stat, however: there are other factors: the main one is-the ghetto is a prison, the lack of transportation to get anywhere,
especially the inability to seek employment, the lack of a few dollars in your pocket, the assurance and acceptance of the group makes one
reluctant to leave their 'safe  area.'

Cops guard the perimeter, if you leave your area, cops wonder why?  "What's he up too?"

I am not pro-black, but ...


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## SeaBreeze (May 8, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Justice hasn't been served yet..not until those who killed George Floyd are rightly sentenced


I agree, all those involved in Mr. Floyd's murder should be held accountable.  Hopefully there will be some reform in the future to avoid any more killings like this, or at least slow them down.


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree, all those involved in Mr. Floyd's murder should be held accountable.  Hopefully there will be some reform in the future to avoid any more killings like this, or at least slow them down.



Reform on paper is only so effective. There will ALWAYS be more than enough "I am God" mentalities to make it a never ending disease infecting society. We need ROBOCOPS.


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## SeaBreeze (May 8, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Reform on paper is only so effective. There will ALWAYS be more than enough "I am God" mentalities to make it a never ending disease infecting society. We need ROBOCOPS.


Well, I'm not for robocops.  But those with that mentality can be weeded out when they are discovered as acting officers, or when they are applying for the job. Just exposing their crimes via videos, etc. and their fellow officers stepping in to stop a murder instead of standing back and watching, is a step in the right direction. Once they know they will pay the price for their bad behavior, it should slow it down.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 8, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I always remember the comment of a police officer, talking about crime. He was asked why he only patrol black areas of a city, He answered, "because that's where the crime is". I know my fellow Caucasians, none wear halos. But the cop's comment is you find a black, you find crime does lead to oppression of blacks, who aren't involved with crime. The police have a mind set. Probably since blacks are so often arrested for drug related offenses. No, I don't think every cop is a hooded, white supremacist, but you have ask why are so many blacks protesting bad cop behavior? What do they get about protesting? There's no money in it, you're not going to get a more lenient sentence, if you break the law........
> How do you know blacks don't have a legitimate gripe about the police?
> Maybe if your skin wasn't white, you could answer that? What do our fellow black SF people have to say?


Racism is real in America...even here on SF! I've read about cops who have been found to be members of White Supremacy groups and wouldn't be suprised if the KKK is included. Cops who say Black areas are where the crimes are obviously discount all the killings by Caucasian husbands of their wives and children that have taken place in primarily White communities. 

We have a list of things you can't do while Black. Drive with a broken tail light (unknowingly), drive a new car with temporary plates in the back window, work on your own lawn, watch T.V. in your house (either alone or with a child at your side), sleep in your bed at night, head up the steps of your apartment building, be an 8 year old child who's taking a nightly stroll with your father and it goes on and on! In each of these incidences, innocent people were shot and killed by police officers (yes...the 8 year old was killed, not his father). In most of the Killer Kop incidences, the cops go free or get a slap on the wrist. It's been proved that Blacks are profiled and stopped for minor (or no real offenses) much more often than Whites. And we are *TIRED OF IT !! *

I shouldn't have to worry that my son or grandsons will be stopped by a cop and killed over some made up BS. My son has to travel to another town around 3:30 in the morning to get to work. And for those who think that only the Black people who have committed crimes are being killed...they are *dumb, ignorant a*ses!* Perhaps the Chauvin case will be a turning point...at least a start. I agree with those who feel those cops should never be set free. And I hope they get some serious a*s whoopings while they're in prison. I read an article the other day in which a convict in the prison where Chauvin is incarcerated said that's the most likely scenario for him. And I have no sympathy for him *at all.*


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

Police conduct stings, blacks need to conduct them. Set up the pigs. Have sufficient video/audio backup, unseen, when the pig oinks, wham!


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## Pecos (May 8, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Racism is real in America...even here on SF! I've read about cops who have been found to be members of White Supremacy groups and wouldn't be suprised if the KKK is included. Cops who say Black areas are where the crimes are obviously discount all the killings by husbands of their wives and children that have taken place in primarily White communities.
> 
> We have a list of things you can't do while Black. Drive with a broken tail light (unknowingly), drive a new car with temporary plates in the back window, work on your own lawn, watch T.V. in your house (either alone or with a child at your side), sleep in your bed at night, head up the steps of your apartment building, be an 8 year old child who's taking a nightly stroll with your father and it goes on and on! In each of these incidences, innocent people were shot and killed by police officers (yes...the 8 year old was killed, not his father). In most of the Killer Kop incidences, the cops go free or get a slap on the wrist. It's been proved that Blacks are profiled and stopped for minor (or no real offenses) much more often than Whites. And we are *TIRED OF IT !! *
> 
> I shouldn't have to worry that my son or grandsons will be stopped by a cop and killed over some made up BS. My son has to travel to another town around 3:30 in the morning to get to work. And for those who think that only the Black people who have committed crimes are being killed...they are *dumb, ignorant a*ses!* Perhaps the Chauvin case will be a turning point...at least a start. I agree with those who feel those cops should never be set free. And I hope they get some serious a*s whoopings while they're in prison. I read an article the other day in which a convict in the prison where Chauvin is said that's the most likely scenario for him. And I have no sympathy for him *at all.*


Well said and what you have written needed to be said.


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## SeaBreeze (May 8, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Perhaps the Chauvin case will be a turning point...at least a start. I agree with those who feel those cops should never be set free. And I hope they get some serious a*s whoopings while they're in prison. I read an article the other day in which a convict in the prison where Chauvin is said that's the most likely scenario for him. And I have no sympathy for him *at all.*


I agree, at least it's a start.  Unfortunately people like him are usually protected in prison, so they don't experience that of an average citizen.  I have as much sympathy for him as he showed for Mr. Floyd.......none.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 8, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> I agree, at least it's a start.  Unfortunately people like him are usually protected in prison, so they don't experience that of an average citizen.  I have as much sympathy for him as he showed for Mr. Floyd.......none.


Yes I'm aware he's being well guarded. He's being checked every 30 minutes as part of their suicide watch procedures and he only gets to leave his cell for an hour a day (I believe it is). I'm sure he's well guarded then. That kind of isolation in of itself is tortuous, now times that by forever. Oh well...ho hum.


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Yes I'm aware he's being well guarded. He's being checked every 30 minutes as part of their suicide watch procedures and he only gets to leave his cell for an hour a day (I believe it is). I'm sure he's well guarded then. That kind of isolation in of itself is tortuous, now times that by forever. Oh well...ho hum.


No doubt all will be found guilty, then after the State sentences are served, they go to federal prison, bad days ahead for the bad boys.


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## SeaBreeze (May 8, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Yes I'm aware he's being well guarded. He's being checked every 30 minutes as part of their suicide watch procedures and he only gets to leave his cell for an hour a day (I believe it is). I'm sure he's well guarded then. *That kind of isolation in of itself is tortuous, *now times that by forever. Oh well...ho hum.


Yeah, but nowhere as near being tortuous as in the general population.  We have no control as to his protections, but at least he isn't out on the street to kill again.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

he wouldn't survive gen pop and they know it. why is he getting special protection? he's a murderer.


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## SeaBreeze (May 8, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> he wouldn't survive gen pop and they know it. *why is he getting special protection?* he's a murderer.


Because he sported a badge when he murdered.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> Because he sported a badge when he murdered.


well i'm sure Floyd's family doesn't see it that way.


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> well i'm sure Floyd's family doesn't see it that way.



Any inmate can request so called special protection, does not mean it will be granted. While there is no exact Constitutional/Statutory provision that mandates the prison administration grant it, for ex-cops in prison, it's open-season, so more than likely the application will be granted.


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## MarciKS (May 8, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Any inmate can request so called special protection, does not mean it will be granted. While there is no exact Constitutional/Statutory provision that mandates the prison administration grant it, for ex-cops in prison, it's open-season, so more than likely the application will be granted.


we wouldn't be losing much if they knelt on his neck would we?


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## ohioboy (May 8, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> we wouldn't be losing much if they knelt on his neck would we?


I don't condone incarceration revenge myself.


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## Rosemarie (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> What I mean by that is that racism has kept people down, kept them poor, kept them from having opportunities that others have had.  Poverty generates crime.  I'm not making excuses for anyone who commits a crime, especially a violent crime.


Poverty does not generate crime...that is a mistake many politicians make. Giving people more money will not stop them committing crimes if it is in their nature. There has always been poverty but most poor people are decent, law-abiding citizens. It all comes down to the family, and the upbringing children have. This is where it starts...in the home.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> This has nothing to do with a person of color. If he'd been white it would've been the same deal. You kill someone in cold blood for no other reason than your personal agenda of hate then they become a martyr.




That's absolutely not true.  The police kill many more unarmed white people than black people every year.  You don't hear a thing about it.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Poverty does not generate crime...that is a mistake many politicians make. Giving people more money will not stop them committing crimes if it is in their nature. There has always been poverty but most poor people are decent, law-abiding citizens. It all comes down to the family, and the upbringing children have. This is where it starts...in the home.




Would you feel safer walking around in a rich neighborhood or a poor neighborhood?


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## Sunny (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> That's absolutely not true.  The police kill many more unarmed white people than black people every year.  You don't hear a thing about it.


JimBob, if you "don't hear a thing about it,"  how do you know about it?

Give us the source for your information, please.


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## Keesha (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> That's absolutely not true.  The police kill many more unarmed white people than black people every year.  You don't hear a thing about it.




https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/...ely-than-black-people-to-be-killed-by-police/

Not according to statistics. There are plenty more statistics to choose from but here are 4 reference sources


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

I'm not arguing that more black people are killed by police as a percentage of the population.  

But more white people are killed on an absolute basis.  

This is a direct quote from  one of your links:  

"Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. "

You do understand the difference, right?  More whites killed on a total basis.  More blacks killed on a proportional basis.  

There is a much higher chance of a black person being killed by a police officer than a white person.  But blacks commit crimes at a much higher rate than whites do, so there are many more contacts with the police.   

It's complicated.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

Sorry, I should have said "I agree that more black people are killed by police as a percentage of the population."


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## Keesha (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> It's complicated.


Complicated isn’t the word I’d use but YES I understand the difference. I’m the one who picked the links.


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## MarciKS (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> That's absolutely not true.  The police kill many more unarmed white people than black people every year.  You don't hear a thing about it.


So are you telling me they get away with it? Or we just don't hear about it? Either way the dead are still martyrs for having to die solely because someone hated them.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Complicated isn’t the word I’d use but YES I understand the difference. I’m the one who picked the links.





MarciKS said:


> So are you telling me they get away with it? Or we just don't hear about it? Either way the dead are still martyrs for having to die solely because someone hated them.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> And the links say that police kill more white people than black people each year.  Which is what I said.
> ...


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## Keesha (May 9, 2021)

I suppose ‘hate’ IS complicated.


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## SeaBreeze (May 9, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> well i'm sure Floyd's family doesn't see it that way.


I don't see it that way either, but it's the reality.  Killers in jail should be treated equally, IMO.  I am not against devoted police officers who are there to protect and serve the public.  I'm against those who abuse their uniform, and are either racists, poorly trained, or just drunk with power.  The good officers, especially those who have been on the force for their whole careers, also don't want the gray cloud that the cops who beat, rape, kill, etc. hanging over their heads every day.  They would like the department to be rid of the undeserving, who honestly shouldn't even be carrying a firearm.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I suppose ‘hate’ IS complicated.



That's a very simplistic approach to a difficult problem.


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## Keesha (May 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I suppose ‘hate’ IS complicated.


Having written this, I don’t believe this is all due to hatred. It IS complicated in many ways I don’t wish to discuss.


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## Keesha (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> That's a very simplistic approach to a difficult problem.


Yes. You’re right. I agree. Saying it’s hatred is far too simplistic an answer.


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## fuzzybuddy (May 9, 2021)

If you are white, like me, you don't know what it means to become involved with police when you are black. I have never been 'frisked', Lots of blacks can't say that. The 6th leading cause of young black males is death by cop. And young black males are three times more likely than whites to be shot by,  cop. And more blacks  are shot by cop than whites. Check the net like I did. The facts are there.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If you are white, like me, you don't know what it means to become involved with police when you are black. I have never been 'frisked', Lots of blacks can't say that. The 6th leading cause of young black males is death by cop. And young black males are three times more likely than whites to be shot by,  cop. And more blacks  are shot by cop than whites. Check the net like I did. The facts are there.




There's a big difference between "more" and "more likely."  


This is from Snopes:

Do Police Kill More White People Than Black People?

More white people are killed in police shootings than Black Americans, but overall white people are statistically less likely to be killed by police than Black people.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/


Since no one seems able to grasp this basic statistical principle, I will walk away from this discussion.


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## JimBob1952 (May 9, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Yes. You’re right. I agree. Saying it’s hatred is far too simplistic an answer.




Thanks Keesha.  I always enjoy your posts and even when we disagree I respect your thinking.


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## Pecos (May 9, 2021)

I do not want this to go political, but here are my thoughts on this subject.

The greater bulk of police officers are good people just trying to do a difficult job. There was a time when I donated to police associations, but then I learned that the majority of the money they collected was not being used to help the individual officers who might have been wounded, or their families. The bulk of the money was turned around and given to politicians and I found that to be very offensive. I asked them to stop calling, but they never did. 

A few nights ago I got a call asking me to donate to their defense money because of all the lawsuits against them. I told them that I already wrote a check addressing that issue , ...... and sent it to the NAACP. There was a very long silence before he hung up.

Police Officers are not ordinary citizens. They take an oath to uphold the law and when their personal conduct violates that oath, then they need to be held fully accountable.


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## ohioboy (May 9, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If you are white, like me, you don't know what it means to become involved with police when you are black. I have never been 'frisked'.


Me either. Never been arrested. Never searched under Terry either.


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## OneEyedDiva (May 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> That's absolutely not true.  The police kill many more unarmed white people than black people every year.  You don't hear a thing about it.


Not according to the article below. The article states "Police officers are more likely to use force on black Americans -- and, according to a 2016 study published in the American Journal of Health, black men are nearly three times more likely than white men to be killed by police intervention." Granted the study is 5 years old but it seems things have gotten worse, not better. If you have more recent stats, please post them and tag me.  The entire article...keep scrolling for more stats by country and race.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

But I agree, we don't hear about the killings of White men. I remember seeing one though that was upsetting. A White man was running naked in the street, so obviously couldn't have had a weapon on him. He also didn't have one in his hand. As he was crossing the street, one cop told the other to shoot. I believe they killed that man, who was obviously mentally ill and as far as I could see, posed no threat. I never saw follow up on that incident.
@Gaer 

@Pecos _"The greater bulk of police officers are good people just trying to do a difficult job."_
I absolutely agree! My beef is with "Killer Kops" and those who use unnecessary force on *anybody, *no matter their race or religious beliefs, especially the ones who wind up getting off scott free or with only a minor admonishment.


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## ohioboy (May 9, 2021)

Just surmising, but the police can still shoot to kill, even if no immediate threat to them exists, but if permitted to escape and there is a reasonable belief he may cause serious bodily harm or death to others, and found to be so, it would be ruled Justifiable.


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## JimBob1952 (May 10, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Not according to the article below. The article states "Police officers are more likely to use force on black Americans -- and, according to a 2016 study published in the American Journal of Health, black men are nearly three times more likely than white men to be killed by police intervention." Granted the study is 5 years old but it seems things have gotten worse, not better. If you have more recent stats, please post them and tag me.  The entire article...keep scrolling for more stats by country and race.
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html
> 
> But I agree, we don't hear about the killings of White men. I remember seeing one though that was upsetting. A White man was running naked in the street, so obviously couldn't have had a weapon on him. He also didn't have one in his hand. As he was crossing the street, one cop told the other to shoot. I believe they killed that man, who was obviously mentally ill and as far as I could see, posed no threat. I never saw follow up on that incident.
> ...




Same issue.  More white people are killed, but black people are more likely to be killed.  If you don't understand the distinction, then I don't want to discuss it.


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## JimBob1952 (May 10, 2021)

Here is the Washington Post database on police killings over the last six years.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

As you can see, over that time police have killed 2,887 white people and 1,508 black people.  

In the world I live in, 2,887 is "more" than 1,508.  

Of course black people are killed at a disproportionate rate by police, given that they are only 13 percent of the population. I've never said otherwise.  

But black people commit violent crimes at a disproportionate rate as well.  Over half of violent crimes are committed by black people, despite their being only 13 percent of the population.  

This brings them into contact with the police on a far more frequent basis.  This contributes to some, not all, of the police killings. 

Do we need massive criminal justice reform?  Absolutely.  But the first step in that process is facing the facts, clearly and honestly.


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## rgp (May 10, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> If you are white, like me, you don't know what it means to become involved with police when you are black. I have never been 'frisked', Lots of blacks can't say that. The 6th leading cause of young black males is death by cop. And young black males are three times more likely than whites to be shot by,  cop. And more blacks  are shot by cop than whites. Check the net like I did. The facts are there.




 I did, and the facts do not substantiate this.


----------



## Sunny (May 10, 2021)

Stepping back for a moment and looking at the big picture, isn't the real problem the fact that in America, police seem to be doing an awful lot of shooting at people?  Whether those people are black or white seems to me a secondary issue. Why are they shooting at all?

Also, of those 2,887 White people who have been killed by police, how many have been unarmed?  How many of the Black people were unarmed at the time? That fact might be more significant than just giving the raw numbers.

If a White man is shot and killed while he is shooting his assault rifle at a crowd of people in a shopping center,  and a Black man is shot and killed while unarmed, while running away from the cop, are those two things really comparable?

I think it was Mark Twain who said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."


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## fuzzybuddy (May 10, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Stepping back for a moment and looking at the big picture, isn't the real problem the fact that in America, police seem to be doing an awful lot of shooting at people?  Whether those people are black or white seems to me a secondary issue. Why are they shooting at all?
> 
> Also, of those 2,887 White people who have been killed by police, how many have been unarmed?  How many of the Black people were unarmed at the time? That fact might be more significant than just giving the raw numbers.
> 
> ...


When you look at the training of police officers, it's primarily OJT. And police depts with 3 employees can become official "police academies". The days of a kid getting a job on a police force straight out of high school are pretty much over.  Police work is a complicated, legalistic, occupation. It encompasses everything from infractions to murder, psychiatric conditions, first aid, civil unrest, traffic control........ there's an endless list of duties and obligations. A few hours OJT, riding around with a cop, who was trained by another cop from the 1920s ain't enough.
These people have to be highly educated, and trained, as well as well paid. But I also believe many cops associate blacks with crime to the point that the  black's skin color equates with "criminal".


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## StarSong (May 10, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> But black people commit violent crimes at a disproportionate rate as well. *Over half of violent crimes are committed by black people*, despite their being only 13 percent of the population.


Half of violent crimes _are committe_d by Black people, or half of _charges filed and/or convictions _for violent crimes are against Black people?   There's a huge difference between the two.  
Plenty of White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested.


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## JimBob1952 (May 10, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Half of violent crimes _are committe_d by Black people, or half of _charges filed and/or convictions _for violent crimes are against Black people?   There's a huge difference between the two.
> Plenty of White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested.



StarSong, we're never going to agree on any of these topics, but I'm over on another thread enjoying your comments about Lawrence of Arabia.


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## rgp (May 10, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Half of violent crimes _are committe_d by Black people, or half of _charges filed and/or convictions _for violent crimes are against Black people?   There's a huge difference between the two.
> Plenty of White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested.



 And you know this how ??

 Do you have any stats that might support this ? From a respectable source ?


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## StarSong (May 10, 2021)

rgp said:


> And you know this how ??
> 
> Do you have any stats that might support this ? From a respectable source ?


What exactly are you questioning?  That plenty of White people get away with violent behavior?  Or that there's a difference between committing a crime and being charged/convicted for it.


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## ohioboy (May 10, 2021)

What, if any, do the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports say about all this?


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## Murrmurr (May 10, 2021)

StarSong said:


> What exactly are you questioning?  That plenty of White people get away with violent behavior?  Or that there's a difference between committing a crime and being charged/convicted for it.


I'm pretty sure rgp means this part: Plenty of White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested.

I'm curious myself. I agree there's a disproportionate number of incarcerated Blacks, but those numbers coincide with the level of violence used in crimes perpetrated by Whites and Blacks, gang population numbers, and tendencies to resist complying with authority.
(I don't have any sources handy)


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## Pepper (May 10, 2021)

The racism is systemic.  The black youth are arrested for more non-violent crimes, i.e. drugs, than white youth; a cost of conviction is not being eligible for education loans, for good legit employment and the (immediate) future is narrowed, leading to more crime.


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## Murrmurr (May 10, 2021)

Pepper said:


> The racism is systemic.  The black youth are arrested for more non-violent crimes, i.e. drugs, than white youth; a cost of conviction is not being eligible for education loans, for good legit employment and the (immediate) future is narrowed, leading to more crime.


Then the problem isn't systemic racism unless you're talking about social services and schools.


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## Elsie (May 10, 2021)

Wow, I messed up by saying, "I'm so tired of the incongruous push that Policemen bad, persons of color good."  That thought came after reading that a black man was shot and killed while committing a criminal act, and some relative of his said he (the man shot) was such a wonderful, loving person, always ready to help whomever, and the cop was a horrible person for killing him.  This was not true, as was known, but the cop was still the "bad" guy.
I don't remember if it was on this forum, or another when I wrote of a terrifying dream I once had.  I and two young black men were running for our lives through woods from a racist group of white men set to hang us.  It was horrifying.  I woke before we were caught, but the dream gave me a taste of what it must have been like for black men ages back.


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## rgp (May 10, 2021)

StarSong said:


> What exactly are you questioning?  That plenty of White people get away with violent behavior?  Or that there's a difference between committing a crime and being charged/convicted for it.



 You're entire post ........ But in particular "White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested."


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## Pepper (May 10, 2021)

Oh, I definitely would include social services (welfare, foster care, etc.) and schools to be what they already are, meaning _in the system, systemic _@Murrmurr


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## StarSong (May 11, 2021)

rgp said:


> You're entire post ........ But in particular "White people not only get away with violent crimes - they don't even get arrested."


I don't have evidence because it's almost impossible to prove a negative.  I admit to only knowing this anecdotally.


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## oldiebutgoody (May 11, 2021)

Nathan said:


> The mindset is prevalent among many many Whites, who have never given a moment's thought to what it would be like to be poor, especially as a result of 400+ years of racism.
> My fishing partner/neighbor is a retired correctional officer- he recently made comment that Blacks commit more crime, that's why there's more of them in prison.       I knew that nothing I could say would reach past his blinders.





Tell your pal that it has been conclusively proven by numerous studies that blacks do not commit more crimes.  That *selective enforcement of the law*  by cops against blacks the problem.  University of Minnesota pioneered studies on this.


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Tell your pal that it has been conclusively proven by numerous studies that blacks do not commit more crimes.  That *selective enforcement of the law*  by cops against blacks the problem.  University of Minnesota pioneered studies on this.



It's really not selective enforcement of the law, due to the fact harassment of blacks is the basis, not that any law was actually violated.


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## Irwin (May 11, 2021)

Blacks commit more murders and robberies than Whites, and those crimes are usually against other Blacks.
https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2


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## oldiebutgoody (May 11, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> It's really not selective enforcement of the law, due to the fact harassment of blacks is the basis, not that any law was actually violated.





This matter has been discussed on a daily basis here in Minnesota from every angle imaginable.  One thing that has been overlooked, but widely discussed here, is the fact that Floyd should NOT have been arrested in the first place.  That it was never established that he knowingly used a counterfeit bill.  That on that basis, there was no valid reason for arresting him in the first place.  That based on all this, the cashier who called the police openly admitted that he should NOT have called the police and have him arrested.  Finally, that had Floyd been white he would never have been arrested.

Outside of the Twin Cities it is not generally well known that we have had problems with counterfeit bills in circulation since the early 1990s.  Back then a group of highly clever organized criminals passed phony money that had the appearance of authenticity.  Many people (including a white neighbor of mine, now deceased) got their hands on these bills.  My neighbor got one and attempted to make a purchase.  The cashier rejected the bill and gave it back.  My neighbor paid the fare with another bill.  He managed to get the fake bill exchanged (probably at a bank but I don't recall for certain).  No one called the police on my neighbor.  He was not arrested.  There were no other consequences.

Had Floyd been white, this is precisely what would have happened.  The cashier openly admitted that he should not have called the police as no one ever established that Floyd thought or knew he was using phony money or committing any type of crime.  Floyd, like so many others, are targeted by cops because they are black.  That remains a fact whether anyone chooses to believe it or not. 




Google on selective enforcement of the law:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sel...rome..69i57.7947j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

I understand what you mean by SE, just as in SE of Prosecutions. I believe at one time Hustler boy Larry Flynt plead such when prosecuted.

The police had reason to conduct an investigatory stop on Floyd, then they found out he had a Warrant out on him, right?


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## oldiebutgoody (May 11, 2021)

I have reviewed the video numerous times and see no manifestation of a warrant.  Please produce a photo to show that they attempted to execute a valid warrant on him.


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I have reviewed the video numerous times and see no manifestation of a warrant.  Please produce a photo to show that they attempted to execute a valid warrant on him.


They did not have it on them, but in the database.


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

OR am I totally wrong about an outstanding warrant?


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## oldiebutgoody (May 11, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> They did not have it on them, but in the database.





The following shows the last warrant for his arrest was in 2007 in Texas:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/


The record shows that he served his time  and had a clean record since 2013.  In fact the article shows,


*We Don’t Know If MPD Officers Knew of Floyd’s Past Arrests and Incarcerations*​
''MPD spokespeople did not respond to Snopes’ questions about the officers’ prior knowledge of Floyd before the call from the convenience store, nor did the department answer whether officers _in general _adjust their responses *t*o 911 calls, or how they approach suspects, based on the criminal records of people involved.''


All references are to Harris County, Texas.  None are regarding Hennepin County, Minnesota.  Again, I see no reference to any crime or outstanding warrant in Hennepin or Ramsey County.


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## fmdog44 (May 11, 2021)

George Floyd was a jobless drug pusher and user, a convicted criminal.


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

I stand corrected on the warrant issue. The PC determination of Chauvin on Floyd will never be known now.


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## oldiebutgoody (May 11, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> George Floyd was a jobless drug pusher and user, a convicted criminal.





His record was clean from 2013 onward.

Compare that to Saul of Tarsus who was a convicted mass murderer.  History does not record how many people he killed or whose lives he destroyed.  None the less, he was forgiven for his errors.  Today he is known as St Paul.


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## Butterfly (May 11, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> George Floyd was a jobless drug pusher and user, a convicted criminal.


So therefore it is OK for cops to kill him in the street?  Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that alleged "bad" people lose all their constitutional protections?


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## ohioboy (May 11, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> So therefore it is OK for cops to kill him in the street?  Exactly where in the Constitution does it say that alleged "bad" people lose all their constitutional protections?


Even school students have in house Constitutional rights, e.g. the TLO case.


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## rgp (May 12, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I don't have evidence because it's almost impossible to prove a negative.  I admit to only knowing this anecdotally.



 Show me {Us}. ........... I can & will argue it based merely on the evening news . But there are, stats that argue/prove it listed in this thread.


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## JimBob1952 (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Tell your pal that it has been conclusively proven by numerous studies that blacks do not commit more crimes.  That *selective enforcement of the law*  by cops against blacks the problem.  University of Minnesota pioneered studies on this.




That's absolute BS.  

The FBI Uniform Crime Report, which is much more reliable than any academic study, shows that blacks commit crimes overall at about twice the rate of the white population.  

For violent crimes, it's nearly FOUR TIMES the rate.  That's 13 percent of the population committing over 50 percent of the homicides and robberies.  

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43

Any good liberal academic (and there are no academics any more who are not liberal) can distort or ignore statistics to reach a desired conclusion.   But look at the nightly news.  There are thousands of murders committed each year in big cities.  These aren't white folks killing each other.  

One of the most insane outcomes of the whole debate about police violence is that we are ignoring these crimes.  There is a lot of concern about the thousand or so people killed by police each year (usually in armed encounters btw) but silence about the thousands of murders perpetrated (mostly by young black and Hispanic males) upon their own communities. 

Perhaps you can explain to me how "selective enforcement" leads to such a high murder rate in so many American cities.


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## JimBob1952 (May 12, 2021)

Calling Floyd's record "clean" is a bit of a stretch as well.  He was full of drugs at the time of his arrest.  And he had been arrested the year before in remarkably similar circumstances.


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## JimBob1952 (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> His record was clean from 2013 onward.
> 
> Compare that to Saul of Tarsus who was a convicted mass murderer.  History does not record how many people he killed or whose lives he destroyed.  None the less, he was forgiven for his errors.  Today he is known as St Paul.



Comparing George Floyd to St. Paul might be a bit of a stretch.


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## StarSong (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> This matter has been discussed on a daily basis here in Minnesota from every angle imaginable.  One thing that has been overlooked, but widely discussed here, is the fact that Floyd should NOT have been arrested in the first place.  That it was never established that he knowingly used a counterfeit bill.  That on that basis, there was no valid reason for arresting him in the first place.  That based on all this, the cashier who called the police openly admitted that he should NOT have called the police and have him arrested.  Finally, that had Floyd been white he would never have been arrested.
> 
> Outside of the Twin Cities it is not generally well known that we have had problems with counterfeit bills in circulation since the early 1990s.  Back then a group of highly clever organized criminals passed phony money that had the appearance of authenticity.  Many people (including a white neighbor of mine, now deceased) got their hands on these bills.  My neighbor got one and attempted to make a purchase.  The cashier rejected the bill and gave it back.  My neighbor paid the fare with another bill.  He managed to get the fake bill exchanged (probably at a bank but I don't recall for certain).  No one called the police on my neighbor.  He was not arrested.  There were no other consequences.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links and for providing a great deal more context about the circumstances leading up to George Floyd's encounter with the police. 

Your words rang true - the many times I worked in jobs that involved handling money - including my own small business, suspicious bills were handed back, just as you said.  We didn't involve the police.


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## Keesha (May 12, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Comparing George Floyd to St. Paul might be a bit of a stretch.


You’re right. St. Paul was a mass murderer whereas George Floyd killed nobody.


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## oldiebutgoody (May 12, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Comparing George Floyd to St. Paul might be a bit of a stretch.




True, Floyd  wasn't the mass murderer Paul was, that's for sure.

The apostle certainly wouldn't approve of confining people into the ghettoes, imposing racialist policies that keep people poor and that promote drugs or other hazards which kill. Redlining has a tendency to do such things such as promoting gangs.  "The War on Drugs is the root cause of the significant increase in violent crime ...   Princeton Sociology Professor Douglas Massey argues that the perpetual cycle of inner-city black violence is unlikely to end as long as high levels of black segregation continue to exist in central metropolitan areas. He "links high rates of black crime to two features of U.S. urban society: high rates of black poverty and high levels of black segregation."

A. The Disproportionate Rate of Violent Black Offenders is Caused By Systemic Racism - Page 2 - Page #1



It's the old story of injustice leading to disorder or, as it says in the Bible, _no justice, no peace_ ~ Isaiah 59:8.


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## JimBob1952 (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> True, Floyd  wasn't the mass murderer Paul was, that's for sure.
> 
> The apostle certainly wouldn't approve of confining people into the ghettoes, imposing racialist policies that keep people poor and that promote drugs or other hazards which kill. Redlining has a tendency to do such things such as promoting gangs.  "The War on Drugs is the root cause of the significant increase in violent crime ...   Princeton Sociology Professor Douglas Massey argues that the perpetual cycle of inner-city black violence is unlikely to end as long as high levels of black segregation continue to exist in central metropolitan areas. He "links high rates of black crime to two features of U.S. urban society: high rates of black poverty and high levels of black segregation."
> 
> ...




OK, I see where you're coming from.  

And Isaiah 59:8 says "The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings; they have made them crooked paths:  whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace."  There's no mention of justice, just judgment.  

So you're distorting that, just like you're distorting everything else you talk about.  Calling St. Paul a "mass murderer" sounds cool, but it's a gross misrepresentation of how he's described in the Bible.  

Shall we agree on mutual use of the Ignore button?


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## Sunny (May 12, 2021)

StarSong said:


> I don't have evidence because it's almost impossible to prove a negative.  I admit to only knowing this anecdotally.


How about a white person deliberately inciting a riot?  Just one example.


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## Sunny (May 12, 2021)

White people commit "white collar" crimes all the time. Just read the newspaper, rgp. Some of them do eventually get caught and arrested, many get away with it.  The "crime" Floyd was accused of was passing a phony $20 bill. Maybe knowingly, maybe not. If there was a rash of counterfeit money being passed around in MN at the time, it's pretty likely he didn't even know it. How often do any of us microscopically examine our dollar bills to be sure they are genuine?  Do you?

And even if he was a habitual, well-known counterfeiter, did that give an insane cop the right to murder him?


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## oldiebutgoody (May 12, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> OK, I see where you're coming from.
> 
> And Isaiah 59:8 says "The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings; they have made them crooked paths:  whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace."  There's no mention of justice, just judgment.
> 
> ...





*Isaiah 59:8* 8The way of peace they do not know; there is no *justice* in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks along them will know peace.



both judgment and justice are used - however, more often than not it is justice that is used:

Isaiah 59:8 - Bible Gateway



*Strong's Concordance*  translates the word  _mispat_ as justice in this context:

4941 [e]
miš·pāṭ
מִשְׁפָּ֖ט
justice


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## JimBob1952 (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> *Isaiah 59:8* 8The way of peace they do not know; there is no *justice* in their paths. They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks along them will know peace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Bible (at least the one I picked up first) says "judgment."  And "No justice, no peace" is still a gross distortion of the verse.  Just like saying the reason black people commit more crimes than other people is because of "selective law enforcement" or white racism.  It might be just that they commit more crimes, period.


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## oldiebutgoody (May 12, 2021)

I addressed the usage in my post and the other issues in the earlier posts.


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## fmdog44 (May 12, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> His record was clean from 2013 onward.
> 
> Compare that to Saul of Tarsus who was a convicted mass murderer.  History does not record how many people he killed or whose lives he destroyed.  None the less, he was forgiven for his errors.  Today he is known as St Paul.


Jesus banged a whore.


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## Keesha (May 12, 2021)




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## ohioboy (May 12, 2021)

Sunny said:


> White people commit "white collar" crimes all the time.


Sunny white collar crimes have nothing to do with race, unless you were creating a pun.


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## Lara (May 14, 2021)

`
@fmdog44 That's not in the Bible. You're putting your faith in Hollywood movies.
`


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## Lara (May 14, 2021)

`
@oldiebutgoody - Strong's Concordance is not a Bible. It's someone's interpretation of the Bible. Why don't you go directly to the source?
`


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## oldiebutgoody (May 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> `
> @oldiebutgoody - Strong's Concordance is not a Bible. It's someone's interpretation of the Bible. Why don't you go directly to the source and figure out the truth for yourself?
> `





Strong's Concordance is recognized by literary and biblical scholars as the definitive source for encyclopedic information about the Bible, its sources, definitions, and all manner of data which enable people to understand the Bible.  Professor Strong was recognized as one of the greatest biblical scholars of his time (1890s).  Because it is primarily an index and dictionary, it is not slanted in any way and does not have any denominational bias. 

I am a literary scholar who was an honor student as an under graduate and have a mastery of the English language.  However, I do not know the Greek or Hebrew languages.  Because of this I need a source that readily translates biblical words and enables me to fully understand the book.  Strong's Concordance does all that for me.


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## Lara (May 14, 2021)

I appreciate your explanation, oldiebutgoody. I used to have a Strongs Concordance as well and it was helpful when I first began reading the Bible as a new Christian. I remember it was red & white, huge and heavy. Lots of information.

My post above sounded flippant but I didn't mean it that way. I just found when I stopped using the concordance, and began relying on what God wanted to reveal to me, I started getting a better understanding spiritually and felt good about that.

But hey, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another and I respect that totally.
`


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## oldiebutgoody (May 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> I appreciate your explanation, oldiebutgoody. I used to have a Strongs Concordance as well and it was helpful when I first began reading the Bible as a new Christian. I remember it was red & white, huge and heavy. Lots of information.
> 
> My post above sounded flippant but I didn't mean it that way. I just found when I stopped using the concordance, and began relying on what God wanted to reveal to me, I started getting a better understanding spiritually and felt good about that.
> 
> ...






Like you I have read the Bible and participated in many biblical debates over the years.  Many moons I ago I  challenged the Antichrists Garner Ted and Herbert W Armstrong to debates about the mythical garbage they spewed on their radio and tv shows and the worthless literature they distributed.  Both declined to have any such debate.  My understanding of the Bible increased immensely thanks to resources such as Strong's.


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## oldiebutgoody (May 14, 2021)

Lara said:


> My post above sounded flippant but I didn't mean it that way.





I did not get the impression at all that you meant it to sound "flippant".  On the contrary, it was a fair challenge and I hope that my reply fully explains my reasoning in the matter.


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## Sunny (May 15, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Sunny white collar crimes have nothing to do with race, unless you were creating a pun.


Ohioboy, go back and read note #71. Then you may understand what I was referring to.

Although I should add that of course, all the crimes committed by White people are not of the "white collar" variety. And no, there was no pun involved. I was thinking of all the corruption, theft, stealing, etc. done by White people, often high level business executives, that we read about in the paper all the time.

But there's plenty of violent crime committed by White people also. (Think about the Mafia, for starters.)  To imply that more crimes, of any variety, are committed by Blacks, is racist nonsense, and obviously a lie.  Crimes are committed by criminals, period, of all shades of coloring.


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## Sunny (May 15, 2021)

Skip, accidentally duplicated.


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## Don M. (May 15, 2021)

Regardless of "race", etc., I'm of the belief that we will see rising crime rates in the future.  These recent "police" shootings, and all the publicity they've received, is causing more current police to leave that career.  That, coupled with movements to reduce funding for the police departments in many cities/states, will only embolden the criminals.


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## Irwin (May 15, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Regardless of "race", etc., I'm of the belief that we will see rising crime rates in the future.  These recent "police" shootings, and all the publicity they've received, is causing more current police to leave that career.  That, coupled with movements to reduce funding for the police departments in many cities/states, will only embolden the criminals.


That may be true, but the ubiquity of surveillance cameras makes it highly likely the perpetrators will be identified, caught, and prosecuted, so there's that deterrent—even with a smaller police force. It's the whole risk vs. reward scenario.

What we need to do is provide people with a way out of poverty so they don't resort to crime. I don't see politicians proposing viable solutions, though. It's not high on their "things to do" list.


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## ohioboy (May 15, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Ohioboy, go back and read note #71. Then you may understand what I was referring to.
> 
> Although I should add that of course, all the crimes committed by White people are not of the "white collar" variety. And no, there was no pun involved. I was thinking of all the corruption, theft, stealing, etc. done by White people, often high level business executives, that we read about in the paper all the time.
> 
> But there's plenty of violent crime committed by White people also. (Think about the Mafia, for starters.)  To imply that more crimes, of any variety, are committed by Blacks, is racist nonsense, and obviously a lie.  Crimes are committed by criminals, period, of all shades of coloring.



Ok thanks for the clarification Sunny.


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## Butterfly (May 16, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Jesus banged a whore.


WHAT??  Clarify, please.


----------

