# Our spiritual side, or our "religion", what do we believe



## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

I've wanted to talk about this for awhile, but I was gun-shy, but I think it would be interesting to find out what others think here on SF.  

I've shared a little here and there about my life, but I won't make a book out of this OP.  Until the age of 33, I had no teachings, no church, my family was sort of the "wild bunch" and for my early years, I wasn't sure whether my name was Denise, or God Dammit Denise.  But all that time I imagined, I thought about some sort of magical loving old fella that lived up-stairs (heaven, I had heard that term somewhere) that would protect me.  I usually cried out for "mom" when I was hurting/sick, but when I got older, I remember crying out "oh God help me".  I capitalize God because I can't bring myself to use a small g because to me that's an inanimate, man-made god.  Something I just came to believe along the road of life.

About the man-made god, I am not telling anyone that may not be the right thing to do, so I hope all will feel comfy sharing.

Ok, I will just leave that here, I went through a lot of different changes after 33, started going to church, reading the bible, stopped cussing, trying to be a good gal (really silly if I was going to follow the bible because it says there is no good in us:

New International Version of the bible.
For  I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful  nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it  out.

I picked religion because I know little about politics, or money, but I wanted to try a "meaty" subject.  First I want to say, I personally have not problem with thread-hijacking, and humor, so please feel free.  I can get a topic back on track, others are well capable too if they want to.  Please feel welcome to discuss your opinions, thoughts, ideas, beliefs and experiences. I look forward to learning, and sharing more as well 

Denise

Edited: I got a bit grandiose in my OP here so I edited out.  I had originally said "all members are welcome" but of course they are because this is an open forum, and I don't own it.  My apologies, denise


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## That Guy (Mar 29, 2014)

When I was very little I learned that God is Love and that seemed pretty good.  Then, as I grew older and especially during the war, my feelings about God came and went with the tides of change.  One fine day I was thinking on the subject and decided there's a choice to believe or not believe.  To me, God is of ALL things.  Simply, all things are of God.  The entire miracle of existence in the micro/macro universe is God.  Science is merely our struggle to explain.  Psychedelic.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks TG, I really like the way you put that into words, I feel much the same, but others can sometimes put it in the words that don't come to me.  All I know of psychedelic is the light shows at our dances, and the pictures on the walls, painted right on the walls of course


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## Davey Jones (Mar 29, 2014)

I was born and raised as a Catholic,was brainwash into the word "Almighty GOD" and Jesus as his son.Im not a confirmed atheist or believe in it.
What I do believe in is my own crazy thinking with a devil and angel on my shoulders trying to guide me in my decisions in life. So far none of them has worked.(g)
 There are thousands of interpretations of where the word GOD comes from,you can take you pick and follow it.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 29, 2014)

I've never been a "religious" person in that I don't enjoy rigid, proscribed rituals and cast-in-cement rules. 

I also "floated" along as a kid, thankfully not being pressured into any one system or belief, at least until I was 12. That was the year my father and sister died within a month of each other. After the church service and on the way to burial of my father (the second of the two deaths) I asked the priest why this happened.

His reply was "God wanted them more than you needed them."

Okey-dokey.

I went on a little spiritual quest to try to figure things out, and within a couple of months I had met my future martial arts / philosophy teacher. He began to introduce me to Taoist philosophy, never labeling it as such and never pushing it on me - instead, he piqued my interest in it to the point where I began asking for more and more information. Only then did he call it by name and start me on a more formal education of what exactly the philosophy entailed.

The up-side is that it made perfect sense and answered all of my questions, just as it continues to do so almost 45 years later, so it's what I've stayed with.


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## That Guy (Mar 29, 2014)

nwlady said:


> ThAll I know of psychedelic is the light shows at our dances, and the pictures on the walls, painted right on the walls of course



Loosely meant . . . mind blowing...


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

True Davey, about "take you pick".  I think a large number of folks, including myself, during this period of my life, are forming our own God, or idea of God.  It's where we create our own God, instead of the idea, in christianity, or catholicism where God creates man/woman.  I fall short, on understanding many other religions because I have studied them, or experienced their teachings.

Thanks for your input Davey Denise


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

That Guy said:


> Loosely meant . . . mind blowing...



Ok, that I understand and get your meaning.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> I've never been a "religious" person in that I don't enjoy rigid, proscribed rituals and cast-in-cement rules.
> 
> I also "floated" along as a kid, thankfully not being pressured into any one system or belief, at least until I was 12. That was the year my father and sister died within a month of each other. After the church service and on the way to burial of my father (the second of the two deaths) I asked the priest why this happened.
> 
> ...



This is excellent Phil, that is somewhat my story, in that, I had no formal teaching, but I was always curious.  I met a "teacher" as well, who happened to become my husband.  He was the most generous, giving man I had ever met.  He was either on the phone helping someone who called him, or handing out money to someone that needed it.  I don't think I ever heard him say no to anyone needing his time or financial help.  He fell a little short paying any attention to me, I was forever trying to get it.  But the thing was, I wanted to be like him in so many ways, be unselfish, care about others.  So I followed him into christianity.  As I look back, it was him I was following for sure, not the God of the bible.  

The good part of it all, is that I am a less selfish person today, and I am "believe me" a better person and what I mean by better is I am not still raising hell with the possibility of ending up in jail or worse.  I am more productive then destructive to others.  I hope.


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## Knightofalbion (Mar 29, 2014)

When your 'time' comes and you pass over all those you love and who have loved you (who have passed over) will be there to greet you. Even your beloved pets will be there.

Life is a continuum. It doesn't matter what religion you follow, it's how you live your life that is the all-important thing. 

*'All this talk of religion, but it's how you live your life that is the all-important thing.
If you set out each day to do all the goodness and kindness that you can, and to do no harm to man or beast, then you are walking the highest path.
And when your tine is up, if you can leave the earth a better place than you found it, then yours will have been a life well lived.''*


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## Justme (Mar 29, 2014)

I was brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (you must be 'saved' or else)! I lost my faith by the time I left home and married at nineteen. I cannot see anything good about the Biblical version of the deity. I believe ALL religions are human creations.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

Knightofalbion said:


> When your 'time' comes and you pass over all those you love and who have loved you (who have passed over) will be there to greet you. Even your beloved pets will be there.
> 
> Life is a continuum. It doesn't matter what religion you follow, it's how you live your life that is the all-important thing.
> 
> ...



I like your belief Knight.  I've never felt better about myself then when I am kind to someone.  I've only hurt myself by being selfish, or unkind.  Like if someone does me dirt, it has never payed to be nasty back.  I too hope for animals, and all our loved ones that have gone before, to be there waiting.  I know I could just end up dead and in the dirt, but it is a nice thing to hope for, dream about No more pain, no more tears, and we don't have to figure out what to cook for supper!!layful:


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

Justme said:


> I was brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (you must be 'saved' or else)! I lost my faith by the time I left home and married at nineteen. I cannot see anything good about the Biblical version of the deity. I believe ALL religions are human creations.



I do agree on "religion" being human-creation JM.  Fundamentalist is very strict as I understand it (which I don't know much about it).  I do know the bible says "you must be born-again".  I have questioned that because of all the folks that supposedly aren't, and I am not sure what that entails even.  Except for a Holy Spirit that indwells the born-again, supposedly.  Sometimes, to be honest, I do hope there is some relationship to be had with a God of unconditional love, but I don't know, and again, I am pretty shut-down about it all.  Thanks for your input Denise


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 29, 2014)

I was brought up in a strict Presbyterian household where I was told that things were "God's will" and I shouldn't question things.  Well I did question things and came to the same conclusion as Justme.  I've had no real faith since my teens and  this is a non religeous household.  The children were never baptised and have never been to church.  They're adults now and can make up their own minds.

Life is just a period of light between two periods of darkness.  Why shoud the darkness after I die worry me more than the darkness before my birth?


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## Denise1952 (Mar 29, 2014)

Capt Lightning said:


> I was brought up in a strict Presbyterian household where I was told that things were "God's will" and I shouldn't question things.  Well I did question things and came to the same conclusion as Justme.  I've had no real faith since my teens and  this is a non religeous household.  The children were never baptised and have never been to church.  They're adults now and can make up their own minds.
> 
> Life is just a period of light between two periods of darkness.  Why shoud the darkness after I die worry me more than the darkness before my birth?



Love your reply, especially that last line, way excellent imo!  Also, one thing that bothered me about my "religious" teaching was also, "well, it is just God's will", no solid answers.  I want answers too, as best as we can figure them out CL.  Another thing is, I used to hear over and over, "I'll pray for you".  Well, that may be a wonderful thing, maybe prayers are answered, but when I am in a group of folks, and let folks know I am looking for work (networking) when someone says "I'll pray for you" I'd rather hear (if they know someone) "I'll ask around for you Denise"  you know, help with skin on it.

Thanks CL, Denise


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## Justme (Mar 29, 2014)

I hope that when I die I cease to be, I have no wish to carry on living in some other dimension.


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 29, 2014)

I was raised as a Catholic, and went to Catholic grade school for eight years, my family made us go to church every Sunday, although my mother usually just went on the holidays.  I was literally in church 7 days a week, weekdays before school, Saturdays for confession and Sundays for mass.  By the time I went to public high school, I wanted nothing to do with church, and have gone maybe twice since, to accompany my sister there.

I am not religious at all, in fact, as time goes by, I find religious groups/churches to be no more than a business, always seeking new customers and their money.  It appears that many wars and killings in the past, also the present, happen in the name of 'religion'.  I've met some born-again Christians, who were not kind to others at all, and they had a selfish hateful way about them.  I have zero tolerance for people who try to push their religion on me, not being able to say two sentences without the word Jesus, or quoting the bible.  If they want to devote their lives to a designated religion, good for them, whatever makes them happy...but leave me out of it.

I was raised in a loving home, and taught at a young age to treat others as I would like to be treated, with kindness and respect.  It comes very naturally for me to help others in need, and to perform small acts of kindness on a daily basis.  Although life has taught me not to be too trusting of others, I am a loving person and often smile and nod at others crossing my path.

I respect people and their property, so there's no 'sinning' there on my part.  However, I expect the same consideration from them.  I was a bit wild in my younger days, especially as a teen, but I did nothing to harm others, nothing I would be sent to 'hell' over, lol.

There were certain rules in the church that I just plain out disagree with, like no birth control.  That is a private decision for the individual woman to make.  When I went to church, all prayers and psalms were in Latin, so just that fact made everything extra special.  We weren't allowed to eat meat on Fridays, so my mother would always make fish or other meatless dishes for us.  Then all of a sudden, the mass was in English, and everybody could eat meat on Friday.   My sister ended up marrying a Jewish man, and was booted out for not marrying the same faith.  Is that the loving way of God, I don't think so?  Anyhoo, she still goes to Catholic church, as it has some meaning and importance to her, and I respect that.

I don't find any pleasure in killing, hurting or stealing from people, or destroying their property.  I'm very considerate of those around me, and would do the polite thing when needed, like moving out of their way so they can get by, not blasting my radio in public, not letting my dog get into their business, etc.  I believe there is some supreme being that created us and everything around us, but until someone comes back from the dead and gives us the lowdown, we can all just guess about things, and believe what feels right for us in our hearts.  Label me as spiritual, not religious.


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 29, 2014)

I grew up in a home where my folks read the Bible, taught me the Bible; and they both lived what they believed to the best of their ability. I was taught to be considerate of everyone, kind, and to help anyone in need that I was able to help. I don't think that I could have had better parents than I had. 
I didn't even question my religion for many years; only lately have I really been searching for more and better answers. I believe that there is a tremendous difference between religion and belief in God. 

Many of history's worst crimes have been committed by supposed Christians (or other religious leaders), in the name of furthering the religion. The Bible itself has had many translations , and often no longer means what it originally intended to convey; as well as things were written into the Bible by Constantine, when he was uniting the pagan and Christian religion into one faith. He combined the celebrations, beliefs and rituals of the two religions, so that everyone could celebrate their chosen holidays; and still learn to follow the same religious leaders.  
Thus, we now have pagan traditions that have been in our Christian theology for so many years, we don't realize that they were not always there.

I believe that there is a Creator of this world, I just don't have an understanding of who He is. I am searching for that part. I don't think that the Creation Story as told in the Bible is correct (the way we understand it), yet, there are serious holes in the evolution theory as well; and nothing in between those two extremes.

Prayer works. I don't know if it is an actual communication to a Supreme Being, or if it is just our mind joining into the collective thinking; but there have been many instances of prayer being answered; so I believe that it is more than just a coincidence. So I pray. I try to open my mind to anything that God might want to say to me, as well. 

I can see that the churches often do more harm than good, usually because the religious leaders of the churches are corrupted, and money hungry people, using people's faith as a way to enrich their own pockets; and not being the proverbial shepard who is protecting his flock. The churches fight among each other, and each claims to be the "true church". Obviously, they can't all be right; so I think it is up to each of us to decide how we will live our lives, and what we will believe.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 29, 2014)

The best way to become an atheist is to read the bible...with an open mind. Read it all, including the parts the preachers never seem to get around to talking about.


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## Knightofalbion (Mar 29, 2014)

'Faith without charity (loving-kindness) is dead. Love is the fulfilling of the Law.' 

Love and kindness have been the core message of all the Masters and teachers of the Light.  A great spiritual truth. So simple yet so profound. 

Let love and kindness be your motivation and guide in life.... This is the only true religion.


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks nwlady.  Unfortunately I can't claim any credit for  that saying and I don't know who first used it.  Vladimir Nabokov  wrote "*common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness.",* but I think it comes from much earlier.


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## i_am_Lois (Mar 29, 2014)

Both my parents were agnostic. I was never baptized. When I was about 7 they wanted me to have a basic understand what religion (Christianity) is. They sent me every Sunday to a Methodist church for Sunday school. That church was chosen because it was the nearest to home. The school was in the basement. We sang songs as a lady played a piano. We colored in coloring books and the lady told us stories. We got snacks and had time to run around in a grassy yard and play. I liked it. At the time, I didn't comprehend that I was supposed to believe the Sunday school stories were true. That the whole world flooded and Noah saved a boy & girl of every creature on a boat he built. That some men blew on horns and the noise made giant walls fall down. Nobody mentioned "These ARE true stories". I'd go home and hear stories about the 3 little pigs and Little Red Riding Hood. I was told "These are NOT true". In my own mind it was all fun & games. When I was 9 there was a graduation party. Everything began to change, starting with that party. There was music, but we were told we weren't allowed to dance. They mentioned it was prohibited because of the devil. The following Sunday I was sent upstairs instead of the basement. The minister gave his sermon. He yelled the entire time, telling us all we were sinners and were damned. He upset me so much, made me feel horrible about myself. I  went home & told my parents I didn't want to go back. They said I didn't have to.

I find it interesting that there have been about 4,200 different religions in the world. I am an atheist. I am amused when I am accused of worshiping the devil. If I have no belief in god, why would I believe his enemy exists? I don't believe in any of it. My lack of belief does not make me an amoral person. I've often wondered why humans created the concept of religion. I find all religions have one factor in common. They offer life after death. Now that is a huge reward for following a religious belief.


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## Ina (Mar 29, 2014)

The Powers That Be
.........ARE.........
Regardless of Designation


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 29, 2014)

Ina said:


> The Powers That Be
> .........ARE.........
> Regardless of Designation


This is exactly what I think, too. God is whatever He is, whether we believe it or not, and whether we understand it or not. 
This world, and outlying universe, came into existence somehow. Even if nothing that has been written about God, in the Bible, or any other holy book, is true; there IS a truth, it exists, and disbelief has no effect on it.
As far as our behavior, I would live by my inner moral values, whether there is a God or a Heaven and afterlife, or not. 
If there is some kind of an afterlife when we finish this one, then it would be wonderful to see my loved ones who are gone from this life. If there is none, then it doesn't much matter what I believed, since it will all be over when I die.

One of the things that most interests me right now, is what existed before our "creation history" began ?? All of the stories go back about 6,000 years; but we have bones and other examples of life existing before that time period. Evolution leaves out a lot, and can't explain some of the ways that life has developed here, so I wonder if there was once a highly developed civilization, that was somehow wiped out, and then life just started over with the time frame that we have a record of.


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## Warrigal (Mar 29, 2014)

I'll be back, as Arnie says.

I don't actually have time for this topic at the moment because it's Sunday morning over here and I'm about to leave for church where I teach Sunday School. Later today we're off to a farewell to an old work colleague who is retiring from teaching aged 71.

When I do return I might have a few things to say about the differences between the concepts of faith, belief, church, religion, spirituality, dogma/darma and philosophy. Or I might not after reading all the posts.

Sometimes it helps with understanding to clarify exactly what we are talking about. Sometimes it is unnecessary.


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## Davey Jones (Mar 29, 2014)

Capt Lightning said:


> I was brought up in a strict Presbyterian household where I was told that things were "God's will" and I shouldn't question things.




I really hate it when someone says "Its was God's will".


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## Happyflowerlady (Mar 29, 2014)

It seems like that telling people (kids especially) that whatever went wrong, it was "God's will" is one of the things that drives people away from churches. Most things that happen are usually created by our own actions, or lack thereof.  The rest are probably accidental. But blamingGod for everything that goes wrong, is not the answer.

Hell and brimstone preachers are another thing that was brought up by someone, and I certainly think that some hotheaded (and longwinded) preacher stomping back and forth across the platform, frothing at the mouth, and hollering that people are going to burn in hell; is just NOT something that children need to be exposed to. 
As a young child, I had a problem with my eyes, and at that time, they did not operate on young children to correct double vision. Our neighbor lady took me to church with her so that the evangelist that was preaching a Revival there could pray for me, and I would get my eyes healed.
The longer I watched that man yell and scream at all of us about how sinful we all were, the more i decided that he was not going to come anywhere near me ! After the service, when they started calling people up to be prayed for, I ran outside and hid, and didn't come out until my mother came down to the church to bring us all home. 
It certainly didn't bring me "closer to God" in any way, and it is no wonder to me that so many people want nothing to do with religion in any form.

Still, there is that unanswered question of "where did it all come from"??


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 29, 2014)

I agree HFL.  I haven't seen any of those pacing and screaming preachers except on the TV for two minutes, as I watch in disbelief, wearing their expensive suits and jewelry.  I feel sorry for the folks in the audience who seem mesmerized...but if it gives them some comfort, then good for them.  Sad world where those who preach the bible, God, and good actions, many times turn out to be cheaters and thieves themselves.


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## Warrigal (Mar 30, 2014)

First a few comments - faith and belief are two different things.

This is most clearly illustrated in the Indiana Jones movie _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_.
Dr Jones Snr believes but his son does not. However, later in the film Indy is put to a test of faith. In order to save his father who has been shot by the villains he must put his faith in his father's grail diary in order to pass three potentially lethal tests and discover the Grail. Indy doesn't really believe in the miraculous power of the Grail but has no other course of action open to him but to seek it out if he wants to save his father.

The first two tests are tricky but rather straightforward, and by following the diary and using his wits, he is able to arrive safely at the third test. The third test is a leap of faith. He must step out onto an invisible bridge across a deep chasm to arrive at the resting place of the Grail. Indy's faith in the diary isn't total by any means. He reaches down, picks up a handful of gravel and throws it out in front of him. The gravel shows him that the invisible bridge does indeed exist, at least on his side of the chasm, but does it extend all the way across? Who knows?

Indy takes the leap of faith and starts on a journey that is uncertain, with his eyes on the destination and the prize at the end of it. This is a metaphor of the nature of all kinds of faith, whether it is religious faith or faith in a particular political manifesto or in a person.

Looking at it another way, belief and unbelief are of the mind but faith is of the heart. That is why we can have faith in a higher power even though we are rational people who don't really believe in one most of the time. 

Sometimes, like Indiana Jones Jnr, our unbelief is shaken by certain experiences that raise questions that are basically unanswerable. Sometimes it is the other way round; our faith is shaken when we discover that our beliefs don't measure up to reality.

The question asked by the OP was personal in nature, and without writing a short book I'll try to outline my faith journey.

As a child, like so many in this country, I was sent to Sunday School by parents who never actually attended church except for the usual rites of passage. The nearest church was in the next street and was a Baptist church. I was christened as a baby in a Methodist church, another very common ritual for that time.  

Australian Baptist churches are not very much like American ones. We heard a bible story every week: stories about Jesus and the disciples and the usual Old Testament stories about Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Daniel, David, Ruth, Esther etc. We also learned some bible verses off by heart: "For God so loved the World.... ", "Come to me all ye who are heavy laden..." and so on.

Looking back there was nothing malignant in the teachings but the emphasis in those days was on giving your heart to God through Jesus in order to be saved from sin. That was a given in every church at that time. Not so in the church I attend today. It is never mentioned unless it happens to be the lectionary reading.

In my teens I became besotted by science. This is where I placed my faith and at the same time, as I developed critical thinking skills I began to question the literal truth of the Bible stories I had learned. My thinking was still rather black and white. Something was either true or it was not. And if part of it was untrue, then all of it was and the whole lot must be discarded. I had not yet learned enough about different styles of language such as allegory and metaphor to consider that different stories need to be interpreted using different techniques to discover what important truths may be contained within. 

So I became a vocal atheist, telling anyone who would listen that God does not exist in reality but something made up by humans who are afraid of death. Sort of, "You can't handle the truth, but I can. That's why I'm right and you're deluded".

Now I'm going to draw a veil over some very personal experiences, none of which had anything to do with any church or any preacher, that turned me around by 180 degrees at the age of 33. Sufficient to say, my unbelief was shaken by an overwhelming awareness that "God is" and that God has the power to call us to Him. (I'm using the traditional masculine even though the God I'm talking about has no gender and no body). After some hesitation to get over the shock I answered the call and my life changed from within. I am still the same person, only more so. I'm free from old baggage and free from outside pressures and tyrannical influences. I would not reverse this change for anything.

So what do I believe now?  I certainly don't believe that the Bible is the "inerrant, infallible word of God" because that is plainly nonsense, knowing what we know in this day and age. In my Sunday School classes we pick stories apart and question whether certain ones are mythological or added to over time to make the story more captivating. We always look for the important teaching at the core of each story. When a reading takes place in church, instead of saying "This is the Word of the Lord" we say "We remember these stories of our faith". Times have changed, and so has biblical scholarship.

I believe that the most important story in the Bible is the parable of the Good Samaritan. This story is timeless and universal. A little child can learn this story, understand it and even put the message into practice. However, if we take this story seriously as people of faith then we will spend the rest of our lives trying to live it out, and we will discover that "our neighbour" is not narrowly defined. Those two words encompass anyone we know needs our help. Anyone in the whole world. There are no boundaries to love as preached by Jesus of Nazareth. It's a very big ask and not everyone is prepared to go that far.


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## Denise1952 (Mar 30, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> First a few comments - faith and belief are two different things.
> 
> This is most clearly illustrated in the Indiana Jones movie _Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade_.
> Dr Jones Snr believes but his son does not. However, later in the film Indy is put to a test of faith. In order to save his father who has been shot by the villains he must put his faith in his father's grail diary in order to pass three potentially lethal tests and discover the Grail. Indy doesn't really believe in the miraculous power of the Grail but has no other course of action open to him but to seek it out if he wants to save his father.
> ...



This really was a good read, I thought it was interesting that my biggest faith & belief change came at 33 as well WG. 

I pretty much stated where I am with it all now, in my OP, but I just wanted make this short comment to tell you that last sentence is the one thing I am most focused on today.  It's because "I want to be alone" like one of Mae West's famous movie lines.  I've grown away from socializing rather than closer to folks, and I can't very well love anyone if I am not around them.  And there is where I am happiest, when I am loving  my fellow man/woman.  Some days I can go further in answering that call that I too read in the bible (but even before that I must have been taught to care for others, be unselfish), other days, it's all hogwash, and I'm going to stay in my woman-cave, and protect myself.

Denise


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## drifter (Mar 30, 2014)

Quite a good discussion, nothing frivilous here. There were some good comments made on this thread. My own experience, to a great extent, parallyled some few here. If I were to choose a path to follow I have some good examples here from which to choose. The one that pulled at me the most, and the one with which I felt most kinship, was the first posting by SeaBreeze.

Congratulations to NWLady for starting this sinsitive thread and guiding it along until it caught hold.


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 31, 2014)

Tut Tut Denise, surely it was Greta Garbo who famously said "I want to be alone".


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## Rainee (Mar 31, 2014)

Spirituality is something that is difficult to define. It's the kind of thing that you feel and understand on a deeper level. and also I really feel its a personal thing.. In earlier times, spirituality was closely connected to organized religion. Over time, the meaning of spirituality has changed. It has become less about religion and more about personal development, being connected to others and to something greater than yourself and finding peace, loving one another doing good to your neighbour..helping where ever you can and sometimes to go the extra mile..   
Personal development involves growing and changing. As people grow and mature, they begin to develop a value system of their own. We tend to get our values from our parents. However as we mature, we may discover we have our own values. Some of those may be the same as our parents but others may change because the world has changed. I know in my case it has because my mother didn`t encourage us to go to church or anything it was something in me that I felt I had to search for and going through a death in my early years of my husband at 23 yrs of age so early in our marriage really changed my thinking.. I needed to have that peace more than any thing..  
All major religious traditions carry basically the same message, that is love, compassion and forgiveness ... the important thing is they should be part of our daily lives, and to quote Shakespeare  here he said this above all  to thine own self be true.. meaning just be yourself..


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## Denise1952 (Mar 31, 2014)

Capt Lightning said:


> Tut Tut Denise, surely it was Greta Garbo who famously said "I want to be alone".



Yes, you are right


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 5, 2017)

Denise1952 said:


> I've wanted to talk about this for awhile, but I was gun-shy, but I think it would be interesting to find out what others think here on SF.
> 
> I've shared a little here and there about my life, but I won't make a book out of this OP.  Until the age of 33, I had no teachings, no church, my family was sort of the "wild bunch" and for my early years, I wasn't sure whether my name was Denise, or God Dammit Denise.  But all that time I imagined, I thought about some sort of magical loving old fella that lived up-stairs (heaven, I had heard that term somewhere) that would protect me.  I usually cried out for "mom" when I was hurting/sick, but when I got older, I remember crying out "oh God help me".  I capitalize God because I can't bring myself to use a small g because to me that's an inanimate, man-made god.  Something I just came to believe along the road of life.
> 
> ...



The "man made God" results from two likely stories.  From early man there we the moon, stars, sun, to wonder about.  Oral traditions were passed down through generations until there was an interpretation of the oral tradition in writing.  There were interpretations around the globe that were strangely close.  Dr. Carl Jung first coined the term "collective unconscious".  The entire human race was found to live through and relate to archetypes.  Hero, King, Queen, etc. These constructions are not man made.  They came to exist down through the centuries with man.  Religion is also the 1at attempt at science.

Many scientific advances came through Catholicism for example.  Then from ancient scripts like the Rig Veda, the oldest spiritual text and oral tradition came the Torah and Bible.  2nd source: Here is where man comes in.   Man uses language to create reality.  When social really is put on paper it may becomes an institution  with many adherents.  This is where the discussion begins and new religions spring up like magic.

I have more, but you will have to ask me.  Do not want to bore you.  Next there will be strange things about Genesis.


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## terry123 (Aug 6, 2017)

After being brought up in a Baptist home with the hellfire preacher teachings etc. and then finding my way to the Episcopal faith and Unity teachings, I have come to the conclusion that I am a spiritual being having a human experience.  Everyone has to find their way and travel many ways to get there.  I still go to the Episcopal church for communion and fellowship with others but enjoy my daily Unity devotionals with my coffee each morning along with my prayers and affirmations for loved ones, friends and the good for all I meet that day.


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## Butterfly (Aug 6, 2017)

Terry, I was brought up in a home with all that hellfire stuff, too.  I found my way to the Lutheran Church because of its emphasis on love and forgiveness.  I believe that hellfire approach is very damaging, at least it was to me. I very nearly left Christianity altogether because of it


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 6, 2017)

terry123 said:


> After being brought up in a Baptist home with the hellfire preacher teachings etc. and then finding my way to the Episcopal faith and Unity teachings, I have come to the conclusion that I am a spiritual being having a human experience.  Everyone has to find their way and travel many ways to get there.  I still go to the Episcopal church for communion and fellowship with others but enjoy my daily Unity devotionals with my coffee each morning along with my prayers and affirmations for loved ones, friends and the good for all I meet that day.



I have tried some churches.  I was a Bahai for a while.  Bahai's had a prayer book so we did not have to make up our prayers.  My problems is I can't pray in a prayer book, or stand a prayer circle and pray aloud while everyone is also praying.  I can't even think then.  Catholics have their ritual prayer and communion.  Jews have their Tree of Life.  Me, I pray all the time even if I don't know it.  Sometimes I just start thanking God for things.  I will ask that my grace be given to someone else if they are in trouble, but that is always a God's will thing.  When I had my sweat lodge we would sing Native American prayer songs.  That was always beautiful.  When I had my guitar and sang, I sometimes felt very close to God.  Sometimes I ask for things and later God answers my prayer.  

It was the day before Christmas Eve.  Me and my girl friend were driving to work together in her SUV.  She had filled all of her cup holders with things and I had not any place to put my coffee cup.  I remember thinking to myself that I needed a solution to this problem. That morning I was thinking about a self sealing coffer cup I could just sit in the seat next to me.  

On Christmas Eve at work we had our Christmas party with gift exchange.  We all drew numbers for our presents.  When I drew mine and opened the gift it was a pair of self sealing coffee cups.  God answers my prays in many ways.  I have found that asking for a solution to a problem and then giving it to God often solves the problem.  I believe that God is with us all, all the time, knows everything we do, say, feel.  The problem is we think we cannot see God's work.  So we do not.  I do not pray that often.  I just talk to God whenever I want.  I love God.  My God does not trick me, test me, or punish me.  God just loves me.


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## Shalimar (Aug 6, 2017)

For me, I know how miraculous my continued survival is. That said, every breath is a prayer. Long ago, while I was fashioning sense out of chaos, I decided, for the most part, to leave theology to the theologians. I needed a way to "live." I found that answer in service to my clients, and the enduring belief that love is a  verb. I believe in a community of souls, a Divine warmth,  the probability of karma/reincarnation, but my options remain open. Hmm, perhaps kindness is my religion.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 6, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> For me, I know how miraculous my continued survival is. That said, every breath is a prayer. Long ago, while I was fashioning sense out of chaos, I decided, for the most part, to leave theology to the theologians. I needed a way to "live." I found that answer in service to my clients, and the enduring belief that love is a  verb. I believe in a community of souls, a Divine warmth,  the probability of karma/reincarnation, but my options remain open.



There is a poem by Robert Frost titled,  "Trial By Existence".  I no longer believe in miracles.  I believe that what we think of as miracles are just every day occurrences.  Once in a meeting of AA there was a man telling us a story about losing his grandchildren because his estranged daughter was taking them to California and had promised he would no longer be able to see them.  He was weeping because he loved them and was very attentive to them.  That is when I began to pray for him and I got the feeling that the others in the meeting were also praying.  It was not more than a minute later that his grandchildren walked through the door of the meeting and ran to him.  The trip had been called off and so had the vow.  The man himself did not even recognize that God was at work there.  This man never believed in God.

It was years later that this man was in a meeting.  He stayed sober for 12 years but was thinking about a drink.  He mentioned he still did not believe in God and that God had never done anything for him.  When it came to me I recited the story of a man who was reunited with his grandchildren one day.  He did not even remember that day.  Then I said the part about having prayed for him, etc.  I then reminded him of the day 12 years earlier.  Suddenly, I saw a light go on in his eyes.  He just said he had forgotten that.  He did not drink and was still sober when I left that town. 

We may turn God into the mystical super being.  I believe God can be different to each of us and still be the one God.  For me God is right here, right now and always will be.


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