# Facemasks in the COVID-19 era: A health hypothesis



## JonDouglas (Apr 17, 2021)

There appears to be a peer-reviewed study done by Stanford University that allegedly demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that face masks have absolutely zero chance of preventing the spread of Covid-19? No? It was posted on the the National Center for Biological Information government website. The NCBI is a branch of the National Institute for Health. You might want to read it while it's still online, given the possibility it will be taken down since it doesn't fit the narrative.

Edit Note:  I copied and saved the study in case govt. or internet censors decide to nuke it.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 17, 2021)

This part is interesting, too...

"Among asymptomatic individuals, there was no droplet or aerosol coronavirus detected from any participant with or without the mask, suggesting that asymptomatic individuals do not transmit or infect other people. This was further supported by a study on infectivity where 445 asymptomatic individuals were exposed to asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carrier (been positive for SARS-CoV-2) using close contact (shared quarantine space) for a median of 4 to 5 days. The study found that none of the 445 individuals was infected with SARS-CoV-2 confirmed by real-time reverse transcription polymerase."


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## JonDouglas (Apr 17, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> This part is interesting, too...
> 
> "Among asymptomatic individuals, there was no droplet or aerosol coronavirus detected from any participant with or without the mask, suggesting that asymptomatic individuals do not transmit or infect other people. This was further supported by a study on infectivity where 445 asymptomatic individuals were exposed to asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carrier (been positive for SARS-CoV-2) using close contact (shared quarantine space) for a median of 4 to 5 days. The study found that none of the 445 individuals was infected with SARS-CoV-2 confirmed by real-time reverse transcription polymerase."


If the science and research is solid, you could get the idea that we've been "had".  It would be interesting if the media would question Fauci and other NIH officials about this, but that's not likely to happen.  Anyway, the more information, the better and this may be another data point.  This study would help explain why there's not much covid mortality/illness differences between states with no masking requirement and states where masking is mandated.


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## Becky1951 (Apr 17, 2021)

Looks like it was published in 2020

Med Hypotheses. 2021 Jan; 146: 110411.
Published online 2020 Nov 22

All citations at the end are dated 2020 or prior.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 17, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> If the science and research is solid, you could get the idea that we've been "had".  It would be interesting if the media would question Fauci and other NIH officials about this, but that's not likely to happen.  Anyway, the more information, the better and this may be another data point.  This study would help explain why there's not much covid mortality/illness differences between states with no masking requirement and states where masking is mandated.


A congressional hearing was held and Fauci and a CDC rep (I think) had to answer some pretty tough questions. I found it on youtube. Interesting to say the least.


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## Sunny (Apr 17, 2021)

That goes against every single thing I've read or heard about the efficacy of masks. They are saying that the virus probably doesn't pose too much of a problem on hard surfaces, but it does spread through the air. How else would all these (maskless) people be getting it?

Is Fauci some kind of evil villain making up false facts to fool us all?  Perhaps he bought a lot of stock in a mask company?  And if anything this big was the truth, wouldn't it be in every major headline in the world?  Why is this the only place I have seen this idea?

Sorry, it just doesn't ring true.


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## win231 (Apr 17, 2021)

I knew that after researching it 16 months ago.  Viruses are microscopic & if you magnified your mask, it would look like a chain-link fence. Expecting a mask to prevent viruses from entering is like expecting a chain-link fence to prevent mosquitoes from entering.
That's why I wasn't surprised when my sister & both I caught colds 3 months ago.  She was surprised, because she bought into what we were being told.   If our masks couldn't prevent cold viruses (which are also in the Coronavirus family), it can't prevent Covid.
And, if masks prevented Covid, how would we have cases spiking ever since masks were required?


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## JonDouglas (Apr 17, 2021)

Sunny said:


> That goes against every single thing I've read or heard about the efficacy of masks. They are saying that the virus probably doesn't pose too much of a problem on hard surfaces, but it does spread through the air. How else would all these (maskless) people be getting it?
> 
> Is Fauci some kind of evil villain making up false facts to fool us all?  Perhaps he bought a lot of stock in a mask company?  And if anything this big was the truth, wouldn't it be in every major headline in the world?  Why is this the only place I have seen this idea?
> 
> Sorry, it just doesn't ring true.


I posted the link to the research article.  I trust  you read it and, like I said, it's another data point you can believe or not.  As for Fauci, he's just a government mouthpiece bureaucrat who says what he's told.  This study, BTW, is not the first that's said masks are ineffective.  There was a similar article in another medical journal.  That said, we're just presenting information and not trying to convince you of anything.


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## Chet (Apr 17, 2021)

We had a saying in the service, "Let's do something, even if it's wrong."


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## Murrmurr (Apr 17, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I posted the link to the research article.  I trust  you read it and, like I said, it's another data point you can believe or not.  As for Fauci, he's just a government mouthpiece bureaucrat who says what he's told.  This study, BTW, is not the first that's said masks are ineffective.  There was a similar article in another medical journal.  That said, we're just presenting information and not trying to convince you of anything.


I'm sure you'll find this interesting, JD.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...t1HL&cid=20210417&mid=DM860177&rid=1134943967


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## Devi (Apr 17, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I'm sure you'll find this interesting, JD.
> 
> https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...t1HL&cid=20210417&mid=DM860177&rid=1134943967


Thanks for this link, @Murrmurr. It explains a lot.


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## win231 (Apr 17, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> I posted the link to the research article.  I trust  you read it and, like I said, it's another data point you can believe or not.  As for Fauci, he's just a government mouthpiece bureaucrat who says what he's told.  This study, BTW, is not the first that's said masks are ineffective.  There was a similar article in another medical journal.  That said, we're just presenting information and not trying to convince you of anything.


And, at the beginning of this, Fauci said masks are useless & don't bother.  Later, when they were required........they suddenly became a good idea.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 17, 2021)

win231 said:


> And, at the beginning of this, Fauci said masks are useless & don't bother.  Later, when they were required........they suddenly became a good idea.


And two was even better


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## Jeweltea (Apr 17, 2021)

Thank you for the article. I found several words misspelled and they called the CDC the "Central for Disease Control" which made me suspicious of this article. I did a search and found several articles in FAVOR of mask wearing on the same NCBI website. Is this just a database for medical articles?


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## JonDouglas (Apr 18, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> Thank you for the article. I found several words misspelled and they called the CDC the "Central for Disease Control" which made me suspicious of this article. I did a search and found several articles in FAVOR of mask wearing on the same NCBI website. Is this just a database for medical articles?


If you found several articles favoring mask wearing, please post the links/sources.  Thanks.


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## Liberty (Apr 18, 2021)

Here is a study and other synopses studies from PUBMED on face mask wearing to help prevent covid:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32512240/


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7774036/

Here is one. There are many more from the same government database as yours. I will post more later today but right now I am busy.


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 18, 2021)

_I don't care!_


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> _I don't care!_


Lol!


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## JonDouglas (Apr 18, 2021)

*Some more references:  *At issue is the physics of particle size and contradictory, randomized controlled trial (RCT) studies, and meta-analysis reviews of RCT studies, as to the extent that masks and respirators work or don't work to prevent respiratory influenza-like illnesses, or respiratory illnesses believed to be transmitted by droplets and aerosol particles.
​*Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009) *“Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial,” _American Journal of Infection Control_, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 – 419. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002​​N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.​​*Cowling, B. et al. (2010) *“Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review,” _Epidemiology and Infection_, 138(4), 449-456. https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...atic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05​​None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein.​​*bin-Reza et al. (2012) *“The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence,” _Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses _6(4), 257–267. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.x​​“There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.”​​*Smith, J.D. et al. (2016) *“Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis,” _CMAJ _Mar 2016 https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567​​“We identified six clinical studies … . In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, (b) influenza-like illness, or (c) reported work-place absenteeism.”​​*Offeddu, V. et al. (2017) *“Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis,” _Clinical Infectious Diseases_, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 1934–1942, https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747​​“Self-reported assessment of clinical outcomes was prone to bias. Evidence of a protective effect of masks or respirators against verified respiratory infection (VRI) was not statistically significant”; as per Fig. 2c therein:​​

​*Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019) *“N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial,” _JAMA_. 2019; 322(9): 824–833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214​​“Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons. ... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”​​*Long, Y. et al. (2020) *“Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta-analysis,” _J Evid Based Med. _2020; 1- 9. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381​​“A total of six RCTs involving 9,171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza, laboratory-confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection, and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta-analysis indicated a protective effect of N95 respirators against laboratory-confirmed bacterial colonization (RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43-0.78). The use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a lower risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”​
Too many hypotheses with too little hard science and agreement.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

Another one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191114/

I can keep going and going much like the Energizer Bunny.  A lot of the ones you just posted are old and we learn more everyday.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7776300/

Another one


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## StarSong (Apr 18, 2021)

The CDC and others never claimed mask wearing would offer perfect protection against Covid, thus all the other guidance and restrictions. 

Nevertheless, when it comes to the value of masks it's important to remember that we don't exhale virus particles all by themselves. They ride along on the larger water vapor and spittle droplets that carry them from our lungs.

When infected people wear masks, their water vapor exhalations get caught in their mask, thus the "my mask protects you and your mask protects me" drumbeat that has been sounded for months.

Most of us wear masks as a protection to others, but also as final, though admittedly imperfect, personal barriers.

Masks obviously don't offer complete protection from Covid.  However, when combined with avoiding crowds, social distancing, limiting unnecessary contacts outside our families, good hygiene, and vaccines, until this virus is defanged they appear to be a useful tool. 

Regarding the OP's orginal Stanford paper link, most of us, particularly those on this forum, aren't wearing masks long enough to suffer any long or short term problems from them. In the past 13 months I've probably only worn a mask longer than an hour about 15 times.
Over two hours? Maybe three times.

A close friend is a retired trauma surgeon who's married to a retired surgical nurse. They wore masks for 8-12 hours at a time, with short breaks for food, a little rest, and bathroom visits. They're in their late 60s and have no lung issues.

Come to think of it, I can't recall ever hearing of retired surgeons (other than smokers) having compromised lungs. I've certainly never seen anything that attributes their mask wearing to poor health.


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## chic (Apr 18, 2021)

I think some people feel better wearing a mask and seeing others masked because it makes them believe they are doing something to protect themselves and others.

For myself, I've survived 13 months going everywhere maskless so I think the whole mask thing is a crock. No mask mandate, Texas and Mississippi, are doing better than many Northern mandate states.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

StarSong said:


> The CDC and others never claimed mask wearing would offer perfect protection against Covid, thus all the other guidance and restrictions.
> 
> Nevertheless, when it comes to the value of masks it's important to remember that we don't exhale virus particles all by themselves. They ride along on the larger water vapor and spittle droplets that carry them from our lungs.
> 
> ...


I remember early on that specialists discovered COVID-19 starts replicating (weaponizing itself) as soon as it gets in your nose. Previous coronaviruses didn't replicate until they got in your throat, bronchials, or lungs. Soon after that discovery, those specialists and others said that, because of the nasal replication, wearing a mask was ineffective, arguing that, mask or no mask, you have to exhale, and all masks allow you to do that. But you're exhaling a live, possibly already weaponized virus. That's why coming to what is a safe distance became so important.

Also, that's why they talked about respirators and people having to wear tanks on their backs, and about the cost and practicalities of that being prohibitive. 

I clearly remember this whole argument. It was pretty short-lived.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

chic said:


> I think some people feel better wearing a mask and seeing others masked because it makes them believe they are doing something to protect themselves and others.
> 
> For myself, I've survived 13 months going everywhere maskless so I think the whole mask thing is a crock. No mask mandate, Texas and Mississippi, are doing better than many Northern mandate states.


Sweden is another excellent example of same outcomes without masks as with them.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I remember early on that specialists discovered COVID-19 starts replicating (weaponizing itself) as soon as it gets in your nose. Previous coronaviruses didn't replicate until they got in your throat, bronchials, or lungs. Soon after that discovery, those specialists and others said that, because of the nasal replication, wearing a mask was ineffective, arguing that, mask or no mask, you have to exhale, and all masks allow you to do that. But you're exhaling a live, possibly already weaponized virus. That's why coming to what is a safe distance became so important.
> 
> Also, that's why they talked about respirators and people having to wear tanks on their backs, and about the cost and practicalities of that being prohibitive.
> 
> I clearly remember this whole argument. It was pretty short-lived.


We keep learning more everyday.


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## IrisSenior (Apr 18, 2021)

I can't go into the grocery store and pharmacy without a mask...so...


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> We keep learning more everyday.


Of course. And proven facts remain constant.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Sweden is another excellent example of same outcomes without masks as with them.


I do not know how Sweden has done recently, since this article was from December but it doesn't sound like they have been doing that great.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/...failures-have-exposed-myths-lockdown-sceptics


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

IrisSenior said:


> I can't go into the grocery store and pharmacy without a mask...so...


They're required here also. So I wear one. No biggie.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> I do not know how Sweden has done recently, since this article was from December but it doesn't sound like they have been doing that great.
> 
> https://www.newstatesman.com/world/...failures-have-exposed-myths-lockdown-sceptics


Their statistics are right in line with masked nations. They're in the link I posted in post #10.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 18, 2021)

https://quackwatch.org/11ind/mercola/

Do you have any other sources? This guy doesn't sound legit.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 18, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> https://quackwatch.org/11ind/mercola/
> 
> Do you have any other sources? This guy doesn't sound legit.


The guy who hosted the event isn't the guy who showed the science, gathered the data, or did the research, so the fact that he markets homeopathic and natural health supplements is irrelevant, imo.

Check the sources named in the presentation itself.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

With all the hoopla about distancing, masking, etc., here's another contrarian voice, whose testimony to the Alberta, Edmonton city council was recorded.  Assuming this is a valid person/recording, his credentials and testimony are interesting.   Link is HERE.  

I hope you consider this as just another data point and not some political debate or stance to be attacked and vanquished.


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## Sunny (Apr 19, 2021)

I was not able to get to your link JonDouglas. I got a message saying, "502 Bad Gateway," whatever that means.  I'd be interested to hear his statement. Can you find a print version?


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I was not able to get to your link JonDouglas. I got a message saying, "502 Bad Gateway," whatever that means.  I'd be interested to hear his statement. Can you find a print version?


The link (https://www.brighteon.com/9ddc4729-ddeb-4516-86e1-2ac563ae4fb9) , which is working for me, is a recording of the doctor/ virologist's testimony. There is no text. I am guessing your browser is blocking it. If interested, suggest you try a different browser. He's basically saying what all the "experts" said early on before they changed their tune to advocate masking and distancing but gives medical reasons in layman's terms.


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## Don M. (Apr 19, 2021)

I'm not a scientist, or medical expert.  So, if there is a good chance that wearing a mask, keeping socially distant, and getting vaccinated can reduce my risk of getting ill, or spreading this virus, I will continue to do so.  A mask can be a minor nuisance, staying away from others in public can be a bit difficult, we got our shots with no problems.  The alternatives are far worse....as the millions who have been infected, or died, should be a good "warning".


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## Sunny (Apr 19, 2021)

The second link worked for me. He is certainly persuasive, and sounds knowledgeable.  But here is a response from Snopes. There seems to be some serious question as to his legitimacy. He was not an invited speaker; apparently he just called in. A number of the "facts" he presented were just not true.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr-roger-hodkinson-covid-hoax/


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## StarSong (Apr 19, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> With all the hoopla about distancing, masking, etc., here's another contrarian voice, whose testimony to the Alberta, Edmonton city council was recorded.  Assuming this is a valid person/recording, his credentials and testimony are interesting.   Link is HERE.
> 
> I hope you consider this as just another data point and not some political debate or stance to be attacked and vanquished.





Sunny said:


> I was not able to get to your link JonDouglas. I got a message saying, "502 Bad Gateway," whatever that means.  I'd be interested to hear his statement. Can you find a print version?



This video was posted and discussed very shortly after it was first released several months ago.
See post #3
https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...n-to-stop-spread-of-virus.54741/#post-1550145

Youtube has removed the video with the statement: "This video has been removed for violating YouTube's Community Guidelines."


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## chic (Apr 19, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> With all the hoopla about distancing, masking, etc., here's another contrarian voice, whose testimony to the Alberta, Edmonton city council was recorded.  Assuming this is a valid person/recording, his credentials and testimony are interesting.   Link is HERE.
> 
> I hope you consider this as just another data point and not some political debate or stance to be attacked and vanquished.


Thanks Jon. That was great & is what I have believed for the past year. I don't think those who have fallen for this will ever be able to believe the truth of what the doctor has said. It's gone too far for them. But for those who are undecided it might be just the thing that helps them understand how much the media has created this.


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## StarSong (Apr 19, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Their statistics are right in line with masked nations. They're in the link I posted in post #10.


Sweden's stats are far worse than those of their closest neighbors (who masked up) according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



CountryCases per million populationDeaths per million populationFinland15,193161Norway19,756130Sweden87,0151,359


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## Sunny (Apr 19, 2021)

So, I wonder who this guy is?  A quack, being paid by the business interests to encourage us to hurry up and reopen?  Or maybe not even a quack, he could be a very good actor.  

A lot of what he says seems to go counter to what all the research has shown us. Whether or not the masks work (or at least, help) should be easy enough to prove, one way or the other. Just look at the statistics of what happens when large groups congregate indoors without masks on. Is there a sudden spike in cases of the disease, a few days later?


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## Sunny (Apr 19, 2021)

Also, something in his tone sounds a little "off."  Why would a doctor be ridiculing people for wearing masks, calling them "lemmings?"  Good grief, most of us are wearing masks because we are required to by law!  It isn't a matter of choice, if we want to go into a building. That will probably change now, hopefully soon.

And he calls it a "bad flu."  Huh?  It isn't the flu, good or bad. It's a different virus. Doesn't he know that?

I am very dubious about this guy even being a doctor. He sounds a lot like the covid-deniers of a year ago, before all the deaths proved how wrong they were.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Also, something in his tone sounds a little "off."  Why would a doctor be ridiculing people for wearing masks, calling them "lemmings?"  Good grief, most of us are wearing masks because we are required to by law!  It isn't a matter of choice, if we want to go into a building. That will probably change now, hopefully soon.
> 
> And he calls it a "bad flu."  Huh?  It isn't the flu, good or bad. It's a different virus. Doesn't he know that?
> 
> I am very dubious about this guy even being a doctor. He sounds a lot like the covid-deniers of a year ago, before all the deaths proved how wrong they were.


Well, LOL, it's probably fair to say there's some who don't like what he said.  Anyway, here's what's out on the internet as his credentials.

Dr. Hodkinson is the CEO and Medical Director of MedMalDoctors.  He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).​He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.​ 
As I said, he's a contrarian voice.   Unlike what happened in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, etc.; having opposing viewpoints is a healthy thing.  Censorship is not a healthy thing and should be considered as a warning flag that something's amiss.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Also, something in his tone sounds a little "off."  Why would a doctor be ridiculing people for wearing masks, calling them "lemmings?"  Good grief, most of us are wearing masks because we are required to by law!  It isn't a matter of choice, if we want to go into a building. That will probably change now, hopefully soon.
> 
> And he calls it a "bad flu."  Huh?  It isn't the flu, good or bad. It's a different virus. Doesn't he know that?
> 
> I am very dubious about this guy even being a doctor. He sounds a lot like the covid-deniers of a year ago, before all the deaths proved how wrong they were.


The word flu is short for influenza - an acute contagious viral infection of humans, characterized by inflammation of the respiratory tract and by fever, chills, muscular pain, and headaches, and requires strict bed rest and even hospitalization.

Nowhere in that presentation was there a denial about the coronavirus. They questioned the sensibility of quarantining the healthy for over a year, the effectiveness of masks, and the authority of government, and I do, too. Not everyone will agree, but I won't judge.


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## Sunny (Apr 19, 2021)

Murmurr, as far as I know, the influenza virus is a different bug than the coronavirus.  The symptoms may be similar, at least for younger people. For older people, it's a whole different story.  But having similar symptoms doesn't mean they are the same thing.

From what I've been able to find on the internet, I get the feeling that this doctor is a bit of a loose cannon. Some of what he claimed a few months ago has been discredited. And he seems to have gone silent on the subject.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2021)

Sunny said:


> Murmurr, as far as I know, the influenza virus is a different bug than the coronavirus.  The symptoms may be similar, at least for younger people. For older people, it's a whole different story.  But having similar symptoms doesn't mean they are the same thing.
> 
> From what I've been able to find on the internet, I get the feeling that this doctor is a bit of a loose cannon. Some of what he claimed a few months ago has been discredited. And he seems to have gone silent on the subject.


I truly believe that many doctors, professionals, and scientists who dare to question current methods and theories are discredited and/or silenced even when their arguments are supported with facts and statistics.

If you look at a world map highlighting the spread of C-19 you'll see wide covid-free swaths in Africa where people are commonly given an anti-malaria drug. When well respected doctors at African hospitals argued that the dirt-cheap drug, already in production and available in large quantities, could literally prevent people from contracting the covid, they were shut down...by Pfiser. I'd like to show you proof of that, but I can't anymore; the 3 websites where I found articles about it have taken the articles down. Basically, those doctors asked Big Pharm to fund the required studies, and not only did Big Pharm say no, they publicly embarrassed the doctors at a congressional hearing.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I truly believe that many doctors, professionals, and scientists who dare to question current methods and theories are discredited and/or silenced even when their arguments are supported with facts and statistics.
> 
> If you look at a world map highlighting the spread of C-19 you'll see wide covid-free swaths in Africa where people are commonly given an anti-malaria drug. When well respected doctors at African hospitals argued that the dirt-cheap drug, already in production and available in large quantities, could literally prevent people from contracting the covid, they were shut down...by Pfiser. I'd like to show you proof of that, but I can't anymore; the 3 websites where I found articles about it have taken the articles down. Basically, those doctors asked Big Pharm to fund the required studies, and not only did Big Pharm say no, they publicly embarrassed the doctors at a congressional hearing.


As I recall, the anti-malaria drug you are referring to was open source, no longer protected by patents and, thus, not not the great revenue generator.  If my recollection is bad, let me know.  Also, when you see one party trying to embarrass, slander or denigrate another, you can almost be assured there's money, power or ego at stake, not righteousness.  I believer Socrates said something about that.


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## Lewkat (Apr 19, 2021)

We are inundated daily by millions of viruses around us.  Some good and some  bad.  We all carry a ton of viruses within our own bodies and if we have a DNA that produces good cells, we express them to fight off cancers and the like.  Not all are so fortunate, sadly, and the media seems to have jumped on those less  fortunates to exploit the statistics.  The constant swabbing in various health facilities where there is no longer any evidence of COVID raises suspicions.  It would seem as though a lot of money is being spent in the name of a search for statistics.  So it is with COVID or any other virus causing disease.  Some will win and others not.  Vaccinations will help some.  If a person is comfortable wearing a mask, I say, go for it.  Cannot hurt anyone around them at all.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

It would be interesting to know what percentage of new covid cases are people who've already been vaccinated.  I read one report that it's up to 60% but valid statistics are hard to come by these days, as is knowing who's really sponsoring or pushing what.


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## Lewkat (Apr 19, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> It would be interesting to know what percentage of new covid cases are people who've already been vaccinated.  I read one report that it's up to 60% but valid statistics are hard to come by these days, as is knowing who's really sponsoring or pushing what.


Somehow I find that hard to believe, Jon.  Maybe they tested positive for carrying it, but a full blown case?  Unless, of course, they received faulty  vaccine which changes the picture entirely.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 19, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Somehow I find that hard to believe, Jon.  Maybe they tested positive for carrying it, but a full blown case?  Unless, of course, they received faulty  vaccine which changes the picture entirely.


Should it be true that, say, the vaccine is only 50 percent effective (e.g. how effective was regular flu vaccine?), it would be a good bet the folks in charge won't tell you, lest people stop taking it.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> As I recall, *the anti-malaria drug you are referring to was open source, no longer protected by patents and, thus, not not the great revenue generator. * If my recollection is bad, let me know.  Also, when you see one party trying to embarrass, slander or denigrate another, you can almost be assured there's money, power or ego at stake, not righteousness.  I believer Socrates said something about that.


You are correct.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> Somehow I find that hard to believe, Jon.  Maybe they tested positive for carrying it, but a full blown case?  Unless, of course, they received faulty  vaccine which changes the picture entirely.


It's well publicized that vaccinated people can still get covid, and that the vaccine doesn't prevent covid but protects most of us from having the most serious symptoms. If the injection prevented you from getting covid, it would be called an immunization, not a vaccine.


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## Becky1951 (Apr 19, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> It's well publicized that vaccinated people can still get covid, and that the vaccine doesn't prevent covid but protects most of us from having the most serious symptoms. If the injection prevented you from getting covid, it would be called an immunization, not a vaccine.


COVID vaccines: The mystery of “breakthrough” infections after shots​
CDC reports 5,800 COVID-19 infections, 74 deaths in fully vaccinated people​
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/04...ections-74-deaths-in-fully-vaccinated-people/


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## Murrmurr (Apr 19, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> COVID vaccines: The mystery of “breakthrough” infections after shots​
> CDC reports 5,800 COVID-19 infections, 74 deaths in fully vaccinated people​
> https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/04...ections-74-deaths-in-fully-vaccinated-people/


After I clicked *No Thanks* on a subscription offer, I got redirected to another page, so I had like 3 seconds to read the article. I think it said that the 5,800 covid infections is .00074% of the people who got vaccinated. And then there's the 74 deaths.

The first 2 times my grandmother got a flu shot, she got the flu that year. She stopped going in for flu shots. I've never had a flu shot, and when my doctor asked if I wanted one a couple years ago I said no. She told me that's ok because, in general, flu shots start losing effectiveness in people over 65 anyway, and they're less effective the older you get.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 20, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> COVID vaccines: The mystery of “breakthrough” infections after shots​
> CDC reports 5,800 COVID-19 infections, 74 deaths in fully vaccinated people​
> https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/04...ections-74-deaths-in-fully-vaccinated-people/


Yes, very hopeful news...out of 75 million!


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## Jeweltea (Apr 20, 2021)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/15/well/live/covid-variants-vaccine.html

This is a very good article from the NY Times and it gives the statistics of 5814 including 74 deaths out of 75 million.


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## asp3 (Apr 20, 2021)

The original article is a health hypothesis, not a formal study.  I found one good criticism of the article here:

https://www.amgenbiotechexperience.com/seeing-not-necessarily-believing

And another analysis of the article listing it as false.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...l-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/


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## Murrmurr (Apr 20, 2021)

asp3 said:


> The original article is a health hypothesis, not a formal study.  I found one good criticism of the article here:
> 
> https://www.amgenbiotechexperience.com/seeing-not-necessarily-believing
> 
> ...


The one about face masks?

tsk. This is why I don't have a strong opinion either way about masks. If the sign says wear one, I do. It's just not a big deal, I take it off soon as I get outside. I don't wear one at my youngest son's house but I do at my oldest son's house because he asked me to - his wife has severe diabetes and is very afraid of covid, and I love her very much. When someone knocks on my door I look through the peep hole and if it's the apt manager, I put on a mask because she prefers it, if it's a neighbor or one of their kids, I don't unless they're wearing one. I don't wear one when I go for walks.

Whether I wear a mask or not has had no impact; I haven't gotten covid. Whether that's because I got vaccinated I'm not certain. I've dealt with the mask issue the same way since they were first recommended over a year ago, and I got the second jab only a couple months ago. A couple months ago is when the new strain was being talked about, so there's that. 

I'm gonna keep doing what I've been doing where masks are concerned. I keep some in my car and a couple of them on a table next to my front door.


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## StarSong (Apr 20, 2021)

asp3 said:


> The original article is a health hypothesis, not a formal study.  I found one good criticism of the article here:
> 
> https://www.amgenbiotechexperience.com/seeing-not-necessarily-believing
> 
> ...


Thanks for doing the legwork for us.  It smelled like bunk when I read it.  Surgeons have been wearing surgical masks for hours on end, five or six long shifts a week, year in and year out, for many decades.  If ever there were canaries in the mask coal mines, it would have been them.


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## asp3 (Apr 20, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The one about face masks?
> 
> tsk. This is why I don't have a strong opinion either way about masks. If the sign says wear one, I do. It's just not a big deal, I take it off soon as I get outside. I don't wear one at my youngest son's house but I do at my oldest son's house because he asked me to - his wife has severe diabetes and is very afraid of covid, and I love her very much. When someone knocks on my door I look through the peep hole and if it's the apt manager, I put on a mask because she prefers it, if it's a neighbor or one of their kids, I don't unless they're wearing one. I don't wear one when I go for walks.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is about the original article posted by the OP.


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## digifoss (Apr 20, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> It would be interesting to know what percentage of new covid cases are people who've already been vaccinated.  I read one report that it's up to 60% but valid statistics are hard to come by these days, as is knowing who's really sponsoring or pushing what.



I completely agree Jon


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## Sunny (Apr 21, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> It would be interesting to know what percentage of new covid cases are people who've already been vaccinated.  I read one report that it's up to 60% but valid statistics are hard to come by these days, as is knowing who's really sponsoring or pushing what.



Can you give us the source of the report that said that, Jon?  You are right, we all do read all sorts of nonsense, and we have to use our own common sense in deciding what to believe.


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