# Immigrants wanting to enter illegally?



## Knight (Dec 10, 2020)

USA TODAY
Thousands of unaccompanied minors arrive at US-Mexico border as Border Patrol grapples with COVID-19 deaths
Rick Jervis, USA TODAY

Tue, December 8, 2020, 12:28 PM PST
The number of unaccompanied migrant children arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border has nearly doubled in recent weeks, and smugglers are using riskier tactics to get them across, a top U.S. Border Patrol official says.

Full story at
https://www.yahoo.com/news/thousands-unaccompanied-minors-arrive-us-180530156.html


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


If they are doing so illegally, then yes.   They can stay in their own country and "seek a better life" instead of sneaking in here, then waiving the flag of the country they abandoned.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

Then everyone without Native American Indian blood needs to leave, now.


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Then everyone without Native American Indian blood needs to leave, now.


And why would that be?   Were there Native American laws for immigration that were not followed?   Every civilized nation has immigration law, so the USA is not unique in this regard.  Just immigrate legally.   My son-in-law entered the USA with a work visa and was here for several years before becoming a citizen last year.   There are paths to citizenship that don't involve abandoning your children at the border.


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## Warrigal (Dec 10, 2020)

Good grief! They must be either desperate, or totally unaware of the COVID situation in US right now.


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## Don M. (Dec 10, 2020)

Given the crime and poverty that exists in much of Central and South America, I can easily understand why so many try to migrate here.  Much the same conditions exist in Europe with a constant flow of illegals from Africa and and the Middle East.  In reality, these Latino's supply much of the labor that millions of our own people think isn't good enough for them.  
Until the leaders of these poorer nations begin to serve their own people, instead of the drug king pins and wealthy, this flow will never stop.


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## Knight (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


If you mean coming legally to have a better life then no I don't blame them.

Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders? 

What I really don't understand is, so many countries south of the border have been as they are now. Why would a couple bring children into that kind of life.  Wouldn't it make more sense to apply legally, pass the required entry for citizenship THEN have children.

Maybe you could go to the border with adoption papers to adopt several so you can give at least a few a better life.


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> If they are doing so illegally, then yes.   They can stay in their own country and "seek a better life" instead of sneaking in here, then waiving the flag of the country they abandoned.


You have every right to hold that opinion.  Immigrants have every right to try and risk their lives and safety to make their lives better.  Millions have, even those who started out 'illegally.'


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> If you mean coming legally to have a better life then no I don't blame them.
> 
> Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders?
> 
> ...


No reason for you to be so hostile except it might be a personality trait that's hard to beat.

*Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders?*
Only in your imagination.
*What I really don't understand*
You've been around a while, as we all have.  Maybe try thinking without preconceived notions.  No, not to change your mind but to see a point of view other than your own.  Stretch yourself.
*Maybe you could go to the border with adoption papers to adopt several so you can give at least a few a better life.*
And why don't you stop making stuff up?  Or are you just suggesting that.............


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> And why would that be?   Were there Native American laws for immigration that were not followed?   Every civilized nation has immigration law, so the USA is not unique in this regard.  Just immigrate legally.   My son-in-law entered the USA with a work visa and was here for several years before becoming a citizen last year.   There are paths to citizenship that don't involve abandoning your children at the border.


The land, known as the United States of America, was stolen by the invading populations of various nations.  Therefore, IMO, we need an open door policy-especially for children.  Due to forum regulations I cannot say more.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> If you mean coming legally to have a better life then no I don't blame them.
> 
> Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders?
> 
> ...


, ugh, just ugh, if only I could say what I am thinking.

@Knight are you under the impressions that thousands, if not millions, of Americans would not do this very thing if it were possible?  Of course they would!  It is just as hard to adopt as it is to cross the border.

My son, with Down Syndrome is white/Hispanic.  My total care son is white/Shoshone.  My daughter adopted a white/black child.  Any child can be adopted, it’s the red tape that holds it up, and money.  My daughter just adopted her GRANDDAUGHTER, it took two and half years, and thousands of dollars.

Just because you would not adopt a child does not mean that others would not no matter what their race.  I, and my husband, would happily adopt any child offered at any border as would others.


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## Aunt Bea (Dec 10, 2020)

IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.

We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.
> 
> We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.


I agreed and in a short amount of time!  The wait, in terms of time, is far too long.


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Aneeda72 said:
> 
> 
> > I agreed and in a short amount of time!  The wait, in terms of time, is far too long.
> ...





Aunt Bea said:


> IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.
> 
> We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.






Pepper said:


> You have every right to hold that opinion.  Immigrants have every right to try and risk their lives and safety to make their lives better.  Millions have, even those who started out 'illegally.'



Are you saying that people from other countries have a right to enter the US as they see fit?  That doesn't make sense.  No other country in the world is asked to take on such a burden.  





Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?





Aunt Bea said:


> IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.
> 
> We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.




Absolutely.  There should be no borders and no immigration laws.  Anybody who wants to come here should be welcomed.  Made a citizen.   Sent to school, with instruction in their native language.  They should all vote.  

Also, it should rain cheeseburgers.  And we should all be really good looking.  And nobody should have to die, ever.


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

@JimBob1952 
*Are you saying that people from other countries have a right to enter the US as they see fit? That doesn't make sense. No other country in the world is asked to take on such a burden.*
Now why'd you go and do that?  Say something so silly I mean.  An immigrant, one who is fleeing intolerable conditions, gives themselves the sacred right of being human to alter their living conditions and To Live.  Maybe you or a loved one some day may have to risk all to save their lives, if that's how they perceive it.  Made perfect sense to my grandma fleeing a pogrom.  Did I say that if a country feels so threatened by this that they institute laws against it is somehow illegal?  No.  You made that part up.

Plenty of countries are asked to take on such a burden.  For goodness sake, man, BREXIT.  Etc.  Americans lately play the victim card.  How snowflakian.  Also unseemly.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Are you saying that people from other countries have a right to enter the US as they see fit?  That doesn't make sense.  No other country in the world is asked to take on such a burden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it should rain cheeseburgers then we would have enough cheeseburgers for everyone.  Everyone who wants to live a very long life should.  My mother is 95 she would love forever if she could.  Of course there should be borders, and immigration laws, but the laws should be reasonable.

And while we have been busy kicking people out other countries have been busy letting them in.  My daughter quit doing foster care when her 12 year old foster daughter who had been raised in the US since she was an infant was deported to an orphanage in Mexico.  The girl could not speak spanish.  What future do you think she had there?


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> @JimBob1952
> *Are you saying that people from other countries have a right to enter the US as they see fit? That doesn't make sense. No other country in the world is asked to take on such a burden.*
> Now why'd you go and do that?  Say something so silly I mean.  An immigrant, one who is fleeing intolerable conditions, gives themselves the sacred right of being human to alter their living conditions and To Live.  Maybe you or a loved one some day may have to risk all to save their lives, if that's how they perceive it.  Made perfect sense to my grandma fleeing a pogrom.  Did I say that if a country feels so threatened by this that they institute laws against it is somehow illegal?  No.  You made that part up.
> 
> Plenty of countries are asked to take on such a burden.  For goodness sake, man, BREXIT.  Etc.  Americans lately play the victim card.  How snowflakian.  Also unseemly.


I so agree with you @Pepper-very unseemly, but for forum rules I would use different words.


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## Tish (Dec 10, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Good grief! They must be either desperate, or totally unaware of the COVID situation in US right now.


I was thinking exactly the same thing Warrigal.


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## Autumn (Dec 10, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Good grief! They must be either desperate, or totally unaware of the COVID situation in US right now.


Sadly, some of these people come from conditions so appalling that the threat of catching a virus doesn't figure too highly.


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## Autumn (Dec 10, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.
> 
> We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.


This is the most sensible thing I've heard all day...maybe all week.   Of course there have to be procedures in place, I don't think anyone is advocating open borders.  But it's time for someone to look at our immigration policies with the wisdom of a good legal mind, and with compassion as well.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 10, 2020)

It's ridiculous that it takes 10 to 12 years from filing and application for citizenship to being granted citizenship. I won't even mention the cost but I will mention there are tens-of-thousands of predatory immigration attorneys. The citizenship process shouldn't take more than a year, 2 at most, and it didn't until the INS was merged with Homeland Security. The two do not communicate well and the INS (at least) is WAY understaffed. Cases are backed up by the thousands and hundreds of them get lost every year.

We _have_ to streamline the citizenship process and make it more efficient.


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## Knight (Dec 10, 2020)

Murrmurr said:


> It's ridiculous that it takes 10 to 12 years from filing and application for citizenship to being granted citizenship. I won't even mention the cost but I will mention there are tens-of-thousands of predatory immigration attorneys. The citizenship process shouldn't take more than a year, 2 at most, and it didn't until the INS was merged with Homeland Security. The two do not communicate well and the INS (at least) is WAY understaffed. Cases are backed up by the thousands and hundreds of them get lost every year.
> 
> We _have_ to streamline the citizenship process and make it more efficient.


Would a quota system work to establish a limit?  What about the children that are sent with no adult? What would a reasonable amount be considering the unemployment now & expected in the future?


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## Murrmurr (Dec 10, 2020)

Knight said:


> Would a quota system work to establish a limit?  What about the children that are sent with no adult? What would a reasonable amount be considering the unemployment now & expected in the future?


Hiring thousands more people @ INS would help immensely.


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You have every right to hold that opinion.  Immigrants have every right to try and risk their lives and safety to make their lives better.  Millions have, even those who started out 'illegally.'


How magnanimous of you.   And may I ask who grants immigrants "every right" to risk their lives and safety? And by the way, entering this country illegally is not their "right."


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Murrmurr said:


> Hiring thousands more people @ INS would help immensely.


Sure, sure.   The USA is flush with cash... jobs for everyone!!   Don't worry about all the restaurants, hotels, tourist industry, retail stores, etc. that are hanging on by a thread due to a pandemic.  Let's hire more INS agents.   What a plan.


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## Butterfly (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> And why would that be?   Were there Native American laws for immigration that were not followed?   Every civilized nation has immigration law, so the USA is not unique in this regard.  Just immigrate legally.   My son-in-law entered the USA with a work visa and was here for several years before becoming a citizen last year.   There are paths to citizenship that don't involve abandoning your children at the border.


We didn't worry about immigration laws, we just killed the ones that got in our way, or marched them onto "reservations."


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> We didn't worry about immigration laws, we just killed the ones that got in our way, or marched them onto "reservations."


Who is this "we" you speak of?   The British?   The French?   The Spanish?  In case you have forgotten history, that's the way it worked back then.  The countries/empires with the biggest armies took the lands they wanted.  So tell it to someone who doesn't understand how this all came to be.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Sure, sure.   The USA is flush with cash... jobs for everyone!!   Don't worry about all the restaurants, hotels, tourist industry, retail stores, etc. that are hanging on by a thread due to a pandemic.  Let's hire more INS agents.   What a plan.


I don't see many flaws considering the hiring should have been started back in 2002.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 10, 2020)

There aren’t any easy answers to this one, are there. Of course we want to help as many as we can. But how many can we take in and still maintain a goid life for all?  And how do we vet those who truly need our country for a better life, from those who want to come here for less than stellar reasons?  Back in the day, didn’t immigrants have to have a sponsor here in the states, who would take responsibility for their food and shelter until they could get on their feet?  As much as it scares me a bit to think of bad who are coming in here along with the good, I surely pray there would be a safe haven for us somewhere if the shoe were on the other foot


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## MarciKS (Dec 10, 2020)

Do the immigrants pay taxes? If not which all the ones I know don't...then they are only adding to our financial issues such as SS problems. 

We have enough people in the US. I think at some point we need to take care of our own. No offense.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Do the immigrants pay taxes? If not which all the ones I know don't...then they are only adding to our financial issues such as SS problems.
> 
> We have enough people in the US. I think at some point we need to take care of our own. No offense.


If they work and they're not paid under-the-table, then they pay taxes.

There's a lot of wasted spending in border security. Billions annually. INS alone wastes millions annually on duplicate processes and file shifting and putting cases on hold for years for no reason that has any basis in law. When you apply for citizenship, you’re interviewed at the same INS office 3 times. These interviews take place 3 to 4 years apart and are the same interview – all the same questions, you’re asked for the same documents (birth certs and etc), you’re given the same paperwork at the end of it and you get a very similar letter some weeks later. Why?

Over a billion dollars is wasted on detention costs. As bad, the vast majority of border enforcement money is spent on the areas _between _ports of entry, yet the number of people trying to cross in those areas is at its lowest since 1972. While “we” have been obsessed with beefing up security between the official ports of entry, the entry points themselves go unprotected despite the fact that about 90% of illegal drug smuggling is done through ports of entry, and a mere 10% through the areas between. Border Patrol spending should reflect current security needs. Focus on effective programs and trash the rest. That would save billions that could be used to overhaul and streamline immigration services.

It used to be that when you applied for citizenship, you were enrolled in classes that taught you how to do stuff like hail a cab, use public transportation, recognize road signs, etc. You learned history and how gov't works...all kinds of stuff; basically how to be a good citizen. My grandfather loved those classes and was so freaking proud when he finished. I'd like to see that come back.


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## MarciKS (Dec 10, 2020)

Murrmurr said:


> If they work and they're not paid under-the-table, then they pay taxes.
> 
> There's a lot of wasted spending in border security. Billions annually. INS alone wastes millions annually on duplicate processes and file shifting and putting cases on hold for years for no reason that has any basis in law. When you apply for citizenship, you’re interviewed at the same INS office 3 times. These interviews take place 3 to 4 years apart and are the same interview – all the same questions, you’re asked for the same documents (birth certs and etc), you’re given the same paperwork at the end of it and you get a very similar letter some weeks later. Why?
> 
> ...


Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 10, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.


I don't know. I'm not being glib, I just really don't know. The population is growing globally. Seems that at some point it'll all go bust. Maybe all we can hope for is that governments all over the world stop abusing their people. Problem is, that isn't likely to happen without intervention.


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> How magnanimous of you.   And may I ask who grants immigrants "every right" to risk their lives and safety? And by the way, entering this country illegally is not their "right."


It's called Human Rights, the rights we give ourselves if what we are facing is intolerable to ourselves. It's the choices we make or feel forced to make.  It's the freedom we may give ourselves to give it a shot.  It's the pioneer spirit.  It's apparently  beyond your comprehension.  

Since it's legally not their right, I'll let our laws and our peace officers take care of it.  By the way, _most _enter this country on a tourist visa and 'overstay.'  They're not climbing walls or crossing rivers, they're boarding airplanes with legal documentation.


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> It's called Human Rights, the rights we give ourselves if what we are facing is intolerable to ourselves. It's the choices we make or feel forced to make.  It's the freedom we may give ourselves to give it a shot.  It's the pioneer spirit.  It's apparently  beyond your comprehension.
> 
> Since it's legally not their right, I'll let our laws and our peace officers take care of it.  By the way, _most _enter this country on a tourist visa and 'overstay.'  They're not climbing walls or crossing rivers, they're boarding airplanes with legal documentation.


Oh yes.  Your responses are so deep and technical that I have to whip out my "Comprehension Quick Notes and Google Tips for Internet Bullies Primer" to keep up.    

And letting our laws "take care of it" seems to be the issue.   Illegals are willfully breaking the law of our country.  Period.


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## Pepper (Dec 10, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Oh yes.  Your responses are so deep and technical that I have to whip out my *"Comprehension Quick Notes and Google Tips for Internet Bullies Primer"* to keep up.


*Oh, you don't understand yourself either*?  We could keep this up forever.  You'll never stop.  You must have the last word.  All the time.  One way to prove me wrong.  Don't answer me, okay?  You're tedious, tough girl.


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## C'est Moi (Dec 10, 2020)

Don't tell me what to do.


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## FastTrax (Dec 10, 2020)

I think what's not being addressed by our government is the indisputable fact that given the technology available to all levels of not only American law enforcement but international law enforcement eradication of all methods of the tax free lucrative black market contraband is the annual global hundred billion dollar plus candy dish. Everybody is in the bed of corruption from the C.I.A on down to the nickel and dime street corner crack dealer. I just posted a thread about Interpol and one of the articles mentioned the seizure of 52 tons of cocaine. Not 52 pounds, 52 tons. Now just how could 52 tons of high grade toot travel from the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western Hemisphere undetected?

The biggest insult to the American public was the hundred million dollar "White House Office of Drug Control Policy" truly one of our governments most corrupt planned failures to date. Unaccountable fingers in that pie while Nancy Reagan whistled Dixie. Just say No. Like that would have a major impact in HIDTA areas. The movie "Traffic" was one of the most accurate portrayals of historic global corruption and just how things really work in the world of the black market. Human trafficking is nothing new. Human trafficking got it's origins when the slave ships dropped anchor on our Eastern shores. Probably earlier then that.


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## Gary O' (Dec 10, 2020)

Fun topic


Anybody ready for a pizza?

I'll just have the one piece


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## Warrigal (Dec 10, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> We didn't worry about immigration laws, we just killed the ones that got in our way, or marched them onto "reservations."


Sadly, that is the story of colonialism everywhere, my own country included.


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## Rosemarie (Dec 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


The thing that intrigues me is the fact that all the countries in the world which have a predominantly white population are stable, successful countries. Now why is that?  If other nationalities envy us so much, why can't they stay at home and make their own countries as stable and successful as we are? Then there would be no need for immigration, legal or illegal.


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## Shalimar (Dec 11, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> The thing that intrigues me is the fact that all the countries in the world which have a predominantly white population are stable, successful countries. Now why is that?  If other nationalities envy us so much, why can't they stay at home and make their own countries as stable and successful as we are? Then there would be no need for immigration, legal or illegal.


  Umm, not at the moment. Currently, America is experiencing some very unstable times. I truly hope things improve.


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## Rosemarie (Dec 11, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Umm, not at the moment. Currently, America is experiencing some very unstable times. I truly hope things improve.


Is that instability partly caused by immigration?


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## Shalimar (Dec 11, 2020)

Rosemarie, I was referring to the civil unrest tied to the untimely  deaths of certain African Americans shot by law enforcement. (There was also a thwarted attempt to kidnap a Governor.) I believe this  speaks to internal attitudes rather than anything external. Due to the policy on Politics, I cannot say more.


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## jerry old (Dec 11, 2020)

Question-When the parent's  drop off the kids at the border and split-where do they go: they assume the U S A will do
something with these children-would you drop off your children hoping they are cared for?

The 'dreamers' are older, able to understand, their dreams are not yet extinguished.

WE have Laws, other's obey them, how do the Mexican's get a free 'get out of jail' card?

It's just a damn mess, heartbreaking, but, but why should they, as illegals'' be treated any different because their children?

Were I a mexican national, you can bet- I too would be an illegal-it is wrong, but I would do it.

It's just a damn mess! a damn mess! you want to be the one that sends these kids back?
A mess, i say, a damn mess.


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## Warrigal (Dec 11, 2020)

Countries that have a monoculture can be very stable but they can also be sterile places where new ideas are rare. Cultural orthodoxy stifles new enterprises.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Knight said:


> Would a quota system work to establish a limit?  What about the children that are sent with no adult? What would a reasonable amount be considering the unemployment now & expected in the future?


Why would there need to be a limit?  We have almost lost 300,000 to the virus with all the other deaths due to all the other causes and the virus deaths are rising.  Plenty of room for more people.  Unemployment is regional.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Sure, sure.   The USA is flush with cash... jobs for everyone!!   Don't worry about all the restaurants, hotels, tourist industry, retail stores, etc. that are hanging on by a thread due to a pandemic.  Let's hire more INS agents.   What a plan.


How about we hire more grave diggers?


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Who is this "we" you speak of?   The British?   The French?   The Spanish?  In case you have forgotten history, that's the way it worked back then.  The countries/empires with the biggest armies took the lands they wanted.  So tell it to someone who doesn't understand how this all came to be.


Really, ever watch a cowboys and Indian show?  Americans, AMERICANS were putting the indigenous people, native Americans of various tribes, onto reservations long after the their land was stolen by Europeans.  Moving them, always moving them, to lands unwanted by so-called AMERICANS.

So I AM speaking of American citizens, who continued to steal the land of Native American Indians non stop and, as far as I know, continue to steal it today.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Do the immigrants pay taxes? If not which all the ones I know don't...then they are only adding to our financial issues such as SS problems.
> 
> We have enough people in the US. I think at some point we need to take care of our own. No offense.


Most of them do pay taxes and, even, though they are here illegally they can collect social security since they paid into it.  Many born here Americans refuse to pay there taxes or there fair share.  I can think of one rich person who paid only 700 plus dollars in taxes.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.


 Yeah, like that’s going to happen.  How many people have picked crops other than their own?  How many times have you passed by a commercial field of crops being picked by white Americans?  How many office cleaners are young white Americans?  Who do you think picks fruit off trees?  

There are plenty of jobs that spoiled Americans of any color will not take or do.  They current state of affairs may remind people that any job is better than no job.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 11, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Fun topic
> 
> 
> Anybody ready for a pizza?
> ...


And I will take two and share the fun with someone else!


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

I th


Murrmurr said:


> I don't know. I'm not being glib, I just really don't know. The population is growing globally. Seems that at some point it'll all go bust. Maybe all we can hope for is that governments all over the world stop abusing their people. Problem is, that isn't likely to happen without intervention.


I think the virus will inhibit population growth.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Oh yes.  Your responses are so deep and technical that I have to whip out my "Comprehension Quick Notes and Google Tips for Internet Bullies Primer" to keep up.
> 
> And letting our laws "take care of it" seems to be the issue.   Illegals are willfully breaking the law of our country.  Period.


Yup, good for them.


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## Lewkat (Dec 11, 2020)

This entire thread is fraught with inaccuracies and attempting to mix apples and oranges.  As to us being invaded by other nations and simply marching those already here off to reservations or just shooting them, well, I suggest history be revisited.  This was a continent largely unexplored and many came to it long before anyone even heard of Chris Columbus, etc.  Of course the  indigenous folks here were from somewhere else as well.  It's a king of the hill situation back then.  When we finally organized ourselves and became a nation of laws as prescribed by the Constitution, then whether anyone likes it or not, that's America.  Love it or leave it.  Yes, we have quotas, as does every civilized nation on the globe.  We fought to make our country a better one at great sacrifice.  Thus, I suggest those from other countries who are suffering, do likewise.  Bleeding hearts have all the answers but never do a thing to improve what wrongs they see.  Borders are necessary for obvious reasons.  Not all illegals are Mexican by the way as was previously stated.  Let the Human Rights Commission in the U. N.  address the issues of the nations of the downtrodden and find a solution to their problems.


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## Lewkat (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yup, good for them.


Yup, good for them, until they victimize you.  Puleeze.


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## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yeah, like that’s going to happen.  How many people have picked crops other than their own?  How many times have you passed by a commercial field of crops being picked by white Americans?  How many office cleaners are young white Americans?  Who do you think picks fruit off trees?
> 
> There are plenty of jobs that spoiled Americans of any color will not take or do.  They current state of affairs may remind people that any job is better than no job.


Oh that is so true!!!  There is a foundry in our city that pays very well, will go and pick up workers if they have no means of transportation, and offers a great insurance plan.  They STILL can’t get enough workers!!!!  Granted Foundry work is hard, hot, honest labor...but still...where are all of those who are moaning and groaning that they can’t get jobs that pay well enough to put food on the table, pay the rent, and all of the other life necessities because they don’t have the education, transportation, or capability for what they refer to as “a real job!”  This kind of stuff angers me beyond the boiling point. When our kids were younger we often worked two jobs, menial jobs, to provide the extra money needed. We weren’t too proud for hard work and we wouldn’t even dream of asking for assistance...still won’t to this day.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> This entire thread is fraught with inaccuracies and attempting to mix apples and oranges.  As to us being invaded by other nations and simply marching those already here off to reservations or just shooting them, well, I suggest history be revisited.  This was a continent largely unexplored and many came to it long before anyone even heard of Chris Columbus, etc.  Of course the  indigenous folks here were from somewhere else as well.  It's a king of the hill situation back then.  When we finally organized ourselves and became a nation of laws as prescribed by the Constitution, then whether anyone likes it or not, that's America.  Love it or leave it.  Yes, we have quotas, as does every civilized nation on the globe.  We fought to make our country a better one at great sacrifice.  Thus, I suggest those from other countries who are suffering, do likewise.  Bleeding hearts have all the answers but never do a thing to improve what wrongs they see.  Borders are necessary for obvious reasons.  Not all illegals are Mexican by the way as was previously stated.  Let the Human Rights Commission in the U. N.  address the issues of the nations of the downtrodden and find a solution to their problems.


Exactly. Why is it always the job of the US to fix everyone else's problems when we can't even fix our own?


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 11, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Were I a mexican national, you can bet- I too would be an illegal-it is wrong, but I would do it.


Me too, jerry

I'm on all sides of this issue
My family is quite multinational

My son in law walked for several nights, barefoot, broken ankle, thru the desert, to get across the border
He's one helluva worker
Now has his own business
Still illegal, but working on that.....it takes time....lots of time

His son, my wonderful grandson is in the US Army
...and is one helluva man



and a father

my great grand;








Sure, we shouldn't have an open border
But, we need to dedicate our energy more toward a constructive formula
One that doesn't involve incarceration


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> This entire thread is fraught with inaccuracies and attempting to mix apples and oranges.  As to us being invaded by other nations and simply marching those already here off to reservations or just shooting them, well, I suggest history be revisited.  This was a continent largely unexplored and many came to it long before anyone even heard of Chris Columbus, etc.  Of course the  indigenous folks here were from somewhere else as well.  It's a king of the hill situation back then.  When we finally organized ourselves and became a nation of laws as prescribed by the Constitution, then whether anyone likes it or not, that's America.  Love it or leave it.  Yes, we have quotas, as does every civilized nation on the globe.  We fought to make our country a better one at great sacrifice.  Thus, I suggest those from other countries who are suffering, do likewise.  Bleeding hearts have all the answers but never do a thing to improve what wrongs they see.  Borders are necessary for obvious reasons.  Not all illegals are Mexican by the way as was previously stated.  Let the Human Rights Commission in the U. N.  address the issues of the nations of the downtrodden and find a solution to their problems.


Good point. I’ve always believed in the “united we stand, divided we fall” thing which is what scares me the most about where the United States is headed now. The division isn’t coming from outside our borders, we are doing it to ourselves. Starting with the politicians, then ALL the people who liv here, BETTER start pulling together before we reach the point of no return.


----------



## Kathleen’s Place (Dec 11, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Me too, jerry
> 
> I'm on all sides of this issue
> My family is quite multinational
> ...


Proud of your son-in-law and grandson


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> This entire thread is fraught with inaccuracies and attempting to mix apples and oranges.  As to us being invaded by other nations and simply marching those already here off to reservations or just shooting them, well, I suggest history be revisited.  This was a continent largely unexplored and many came to it long before anyone even heard of Chris Columbus, etc.  Of course the  indigenous folks here were from somewhere else as well.  It's a king of the hill situation back then.  When we finally organized ourselves and became a nation of laws as prescribed by the Constitution, then whether anyone likes it or not, that's America.  Love it or leave it.  Yes, we have quotas, as does every civilized nation on the globe.  We fought to make our country a better one at great sacrifice.  Thus, I suggest those from other countries who are suffering, do likewise.  Bleeding hearts have all the answers but never do a thing to improve what wrongs they see.  Borders are necessary for obvious reasons.  Not all illegals are Mexican by the way as was previously stated.  Let the Human Rights Commission in the U. N.  address the issues of the nations of the downtrodden and find a solution to their problems.


I suppose I am one of the bleeding hearts you are referring too.  I could pull up my genealogy, list all the veterans, in my direct line, with all the veterans in your direct line, and see which of our families bled more defending the USofA.  Pretty sure my family will win.  I served in the Army.

I have adopted two multi race disabled children.

My total care disabled son was denied access to Head Start because he was DISABLED.  I filed a complaint under the Americans with Disability Act.  Because of my complaint, and the proof provided, from that time forward every single disabled child in my state gained access to the Head Start Program, including my son.  It is the bleeding hearts that change the world, and the nay sayers that accomplish nothing.  Again, forum rules constraint my response.

I bleed red, white, and blue, as does my family.  Your ignorant statement “Bleeding hearts have all the answers but never do a thing to improve what wrongs they see”, is ignorant, inaccurate, and insulting; to me personally and to all the doers on the forum.

Since you are not a bleeding heart, do tell us what you have done to improve your fellow Americans way of life?


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Question-When the parent's  drop off the kids at the border and split-where do they go: they assume the U S A will do
> something with these children-would you drop off your children hoping they are cared for?
> 
> The 'dreamers' are older, able to understand, their dreams are not yet extinguished.
> ...


My question is why illegal? Why not take the legal route? That's what it's there for.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> Oh that is so true!!!  There is a foundry in our city that pays very well, will go and pick up workers if they have no means of transportation, and offers a great insurance plan.  They STILL can’t get enough workers!!!!  Granted Foundry work is hard, hot, honest labor...but still...where are all of those who are moaning and groaning that they can’t get jobs that pay well enough to put food on the table, pay the rent, and all of the other life necessities because they don’t have the education, transportation, or capability for what they refer to as “a real job!”  This kind of stuff angers me beyond the boiling point. When our kids were younger we often worked two jobs, menial jobs, to provide the extra money needed. We weren’t too proud for hard work and we wouldn’t even dream of asking for assistance...still won’t to this day.


In the early days I worked at a hospital cleaning toilets and later as a maid.  A job is a job.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> Yup, good for them, until they victimize you.  Puleeze.


Does it hurt less if you are victimized by a person born in the USA or a legal immigrant as opposed to an illegal immigrant?  I think not.  This comment, IMO, is extremely silly.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> My question is why illegal? Why not take the legal route? That's what it's there for.


The legal route takes 10 to 20 years, that’s why.


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> My question is why illegal? Why not take the legal route? That's what it's there for.


It's not the easy route portrayed

Folks south of the border need money....now.....not in months/years

I've been down there

It ain't pretty


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> It's not the easy route portrayed
> 
> Folks south of the border need money....now.....not in months/years
> 
> ...


Then why isn't their own government dealing with and fixing these issues? Why is it always the responsibility of the US to take them in and provide for them?


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Then why isn't their own government dealing with and fixing these issues? Why is it always the responsibility of the US to take them in and provide for them?


Have you seen their 'government'?
Federales* ARE *the problem.

A friend of mine has a business in Tecate
Every peso of the raise he gives his employees (to keep them) is taken by the Mexican 'government'

It's a hopeless situation
Work hard
Stay poor


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Have you seen their 'government'?
> Federales* ARE *the problem.
> 
> A friend of mine has a business in Tecate
> ...


We do that here too. The work hard stay poor bit.


----------



## Gary O' (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> We do that here too.


Not near the magnitude as Mexico

You can work even a menial job here, and if careful, get ahead
Sometimes it takes two menial jobs
But, they're there
Opportunity is here...still here


----------



## DonnyO (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> The legal route takes 10 to 20 years, that’s why.


So. Then its okay to break our laws and enter the Country illegally? I don't think so.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> The legal route takes 10 to 20 years, that’s why.


I once asked that same question of a woman who openly admitted that her family had arrived here "illegally."  She said they tried to do it legally, and the hurdles, and the incredibly long waiting period, were insurmountable. The system was rigged against them from the start. My solution would be to make it easier for people to get here legally, period. They are not criminals or psychopaths?  They want desperately to become Americans, and are coming here to work, not to commit crimes, as politicians have suggested to advance their own agendas?  In the name of common humanity, let them in!

BTW, most of the same objections and fears raised against those coming up through Mexico, have been used in the past, against the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Polish, you name it. They talk funny. They look funny.  They even smell funny. They aren't one of us. They have a crime syndicate. They are here to steal, rape, commit murder.

The Blacks can't be accused of sneaking into the country to do harm, as their ancestors were dragged here in chains. But the same crowd who are raising all these ridiculous fears about the immigrants didn't exactly welcome the Blacks either, except to use them as free labor. Sadly, some things never change.


----------



## CarolfromTX (Dec 11, 2020)

What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life.

i have to have a passport even to travel to Canada. Immigration law applies to me. Why shouldn’t it apply to someone from Guatemala?


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> It's called Human Rights, the rights we give ourselves if what we are facing is intolerable to ourselves. It's the choices we make or feel forced to make.  It's the freedom we may give ourselves to give it a shot.  It's the pioneer spirit.  It's apparently  beyond your comprehension.
> 
> Since it's legally not their right, I'll let our laws and our peace officers take care of it.  By the way, _most _enter this country on a tourist visa and 'overstay.'  They're not climbing walls or crossing rivers, they're boarding airplanes with legal documentation.



If they "overstay" they are here illegally.  It's a distinction without a difference.  



Pepper said:


> @JimBob1952
> *Are you saying that people from other countries have a right to enter the US as they see fit? That doesn't make sense. No other country in the world is asked to take on such a burden.*
> Now why'd you go and do that?  Say something so silly I mean.  An immigrant, one who is fleeing intolerable conditions, gives themselves the sacred right of being human to alter their living conditions and To Live.  Maybe you or a loved one some day may have to risk all to save their lives, if that's how they perceive it.  Made perfect sense to my grandma fleeing a pogrom.  Did I say that if a country feels so threatened by this that they institute laws against it is somehow illegal?  No.  You made that part up.
> 
> Plenty of countries are asked to take on such a burden.  For goodness sake, man, BREXIT.  Etc.  Americans lately play the victim card.  How snowflakian.  Also unseemly.




Well, obviously you have no sympathy for the plight of poor people in the US.  Because an influx of low-skilled immigrants drives their wages down.  This is especially tough on black men -- most of whom have a high school diploma or less -- but that doesn't seem to register with the open borders folks.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

JimBob, they are desperately needed here, to do the work that Americans don't want to do.  They are not taking any jobs away from anybody, that's a fiction that has been propagated by those who don't want them here, period.  

Who do you think is picking the crops you've been eating for umpteen years now?


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> JimBob, they are desperately needed here, to do the work that Americans don't want to do.  They are not taking any jobs away from anybody, that's a fiction that has been propagated by those who don't want them here, period.
> 
> Who do you think is picking the crops you've been eating for umpteen years now?



If illegals weren't here, the wages would go up and "Americans" would be willing to do these jobs.   

I respect the work ethic and the decency and humanity of the vast majority of illegal immigrants.  Most mean no harm and they just want to help themselves and their families.  But they clearly depress wages paid for unskilled jobs.  

Supply and demand isn't politics, it's just the way the world works.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 11, 2020)

This is from a 2010 report from the US Commission on Civil Rights:  


Among its findings, the Commission notes that the illegal workers are estimated to account for as
much as one-third of total immigrants in the United States, and that illegal immigration has
tended to increase the supply of low-skilled, low-wage labor available. The Commission found
also that about six in 10 adult black males have a high school diploma or less, and are
disproportionately employed in the low-skilled labor market in likely competition with
immigrants. Evidence for negative effects of such competition ranged from modest to
significant, according to the experts who testified, but even those experts who viewed the effects
as modest overall found significant effects in occupations such as meatpacking and construction.


----------



## Lewkat (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I suppose I am one of the bleeding hearts you are referring too.  I could pull up my genealogy, list all the veterans, in my direct line, with all the veterans in your direct line, and see which of our families bled more defending the USofA.  Pretty sure my family will win.  I served in the Army.
> 
> I have adopted two multi race disabled children.
> 
> ...


My statement is no more ignorant than what you just posted regarding about defending the USofA.  My family arrived in this country in 1650 and we have served in every war except Afghanistan, which includes myself.  I am a Korean War Vet.

As for your disabled son and the Head Start Program, sad as that situation is, it has nothing to do with this illegal immigration thread.

As for improving my fellow Americans way of life, I have dedicated my self to improving their health care through healing and curing from life through death.  It is a profession of self sacrifice and many a drop of sweat and tears have been expressed in doing so.  

I have adopted immigrant families getting them settled, jobs and on the path to citizenship and enjoying good health and education.

For the nonce, this is sufficient as any other difficulties, I may have personally faced is not my idea of trying to elicit sympathy for my situation.  

I believe in the Theodore Roosevelt mantra.  Come to this country, learn the language, get a job and become a citizen.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Their English is sketchy at best. It's difficult to work with someone who doesn't understand enough english to comprehend what you're telling them.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 11, 2020)

While you gave interesting facts, @JimBob1952  which I already knew btw, you're not seeing the situation realistically, but how you would like it to be.

Immigrants are going to come.  They couldn't care less about your facts.  In my area it is Russians, Ukrainians, other Eastern bloc,  and a few blocks north, the Chinese.  "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"  Nope, they are already here.  No one asked me.  No one asked you.  It was all politics and has naught to do with what the general public wants.  I'm an expert on Russian immigration and how it has affected our native Hispanic (Puerto Ricans) and black populations.

Why you appear to label me as something which you can't possibly know is annoying to me.  Please stop.  You have made assumptions before.  It is anal.  Yup.  That's what it is.  I assume, based on your desire to stamp a label and put everything in it's place, where it ought to be.

Much of life is nothing where it ought to be.

There is a new industry here.  Pregnant women coming in from China, Russia, you name it to give birth here.  It is called Birth Tourism.  It costs a lot of money.  None of these mothers are Hispanic.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

A while back, I read a book (I wish I could remember the name) about immigration to this country around the turn of the century. It told in detail about the physical and emotional hardships faced by all those immigrants, no matter where they came from. What jumped out at me was the similarity to the nasty greetings the current wave of immigrants are getting. Every single accusation that is leveled against the Hispanics was used against every other ethnic group. The Jews were particularly hated. Most of them spoke no English, they appeared unkempt, "dirty," crude, etc. by the standards of the day. Not to mention being the "wrong" religion. Yet it took them one generation, or less, to completely assimilate. 

There were the infamous "No Irish need apply" signs at workplaces. And lots of prejudice against every other group. The usual complaint, aside from trumped-up charges of criminal behavior, etc. was that they were taking jobs away from "real" Americans.  But they were real Americans. They couldn't wait to become citizens, and virtually all of them did.

What is particularly ironic is that the people doing the loudest hollering about all these terrible immigrants see nothing wrong with the fact that their forbears literally stole this country from the Indians.  Maybe somebody should "send them back."


----------



## DonnyO (Dec 11, 2020)

The thread is about illegal immigrants crossing our borders illegaly.  Not legal immigrants who come here legally.


----------



## C'est Moi (Dec 11, 2020)

DonnyO said:


> The thread is about illegal immigrants crossing our borders illegaly.  Not legal immigrants who come here legally.


Exactly.   And people seem to miss the fact that LEGAL immigrants are welcome.   As for the unskilled workforce, they can get green cards to enter the USA for work.   That's the route my son-in-law took; he came here to work, legally.   Now he's an American citizen.  

And to those making the Russian, Italian, blah, blah argument... I don't believe anyone has stated that ALL illegals are hispanic.   It's just that they make up the majority.  (Do you see street signs in Russian, or do you get the "Press 1 for Russian" option?   No, I didn't think so.)


----------



## C'est Moi (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Really, ever watch a cowboys and Indian show?  Americans, AMERICANS were putting the indigenous people, native Americans of various tribes, onto reservations long after the their land was stolen by Europeans.  Moving them, always moving them, to lands unwanted by so-called AMERICANS.
> 
> So I AM speaking of American citizens, who continued to steal the land of Native American Indians non stop and, as far as I know, continue to steal it today.


Oh yes, I depend on Roy Rogers for my history lessons.  Thanks.


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 11, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life.
> 
> i have to have a passport even to travel to Canada. Immigration law applies to me. Why shouldn’t it apply to someone from Guatemala?


You don’t require a passport to enter Canada, but America requires you have one to return


----------



## Chet (Dec 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> A while back, I read a book (I wish I could remember the name) about immigration to this country around the turn of the century. It told in detail about the physical and emotional hardships faced by all those immigrants, no matter where they came from. What jumped out at me was the similarity to the nasty greetings the current wave of immigrants are getting. Every single accusation that is leveled against the Hispanics was used against every other ethnic group. The Jews were particularly hated. Most of them spoke no English, they appeared unkempt, "dirty," crude, etc. by the standards of the day. Not to mention being the "wrong" religion. Yet it took them one generation, or less, to completely assimilate.
> 
> There were the infamous "No Irish need apply" signs at workplaces. And lots of prejudice against every other group. The usual complaint, aside from trumped-up charges of criminal behavior, etc. was that they were taking jobs away from "real" Americans.  But they were real Americans. They couldn't wait to become citizens, and virtually all of them did.
> 
> What is particularly ironic is that the people doing the loudest hollering about all these terrible immigrants see nothing wrong with the fact that their forbears literally stole this country from the Indians.  Maybe somebody should "send them back."


Those you wrote about came here legally just like both sets of my grandparents by way of Ellis Island. They followed all the rules, they took an oath of allegiance, then they worked the mines and fought the wars. I welcome all who follow when done legally.


----------



## Pete (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


I would never blame anyone for wanting to have a better life.... but like my grandparents who were immigrants there is a right way and an illegal way.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Oh yes, I depend on Roy Rogers for my history lessons.  Thanks.


You are most welcome


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Murrmurr said:


> Hiring thousands more people @ INS would help immensely.


if nothing else that would help thousands to get a job.  Then there are the taxes  (federal, local & state could collect from employees . Toss in the infrastructure to get it up & running & even continue a lot more people would be employed. 

The only caveat I can think of is those would all be federal employees paid by the taxes collected from those like me retired and those still working in private industry or self employed. 

I prefer the system of applying for citizenship 1st. rather than invading so that another government agency doesn't become another anchor around the middle class neck.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> If they "overstay" they are here illegally.  It's a distinction without a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are incorrect, when someone makes a minimum wage it does not go lower.  Most low-skilled people make minimum wage which is set by law.


----------



## Knight (Dec 11, 2020)

Like they do crossing Mexico. I think a lot of the concern could be eliminated if rail roads that cross the Canadian border would allow the thousands the want to come north for a better life be able to ride on top of boxcars to the various Canadian entry points.

I like what Shalimar posted.
You don’t require a passport to enter Canada, but America requires you have one to return.

Once in Canada they would need a passport to come back across.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Knight said:


> Like they do crossing Mexico. I think a lot of the concern could be eliminated if rail roads that cross the Canadian border would allow the thousands the want to come north for a better life be able to ride on top of boxcars to the various Canadian entry points.


Surprisingly enough, people come and stay illegally from Canada.  I had a friend who could not apply for a drivers license with the change in laws.  She had lived her since she was 16 but with the change in the laws she would be deported.  She was 65 last time I saw her.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> My statement is no more ignorant than what you just posted regarding about defending the USofA.  My family arrived in this country in 1650 and we have served in every war except Afghanistan, which includes myself.  I am a Korean War Vet.
> 
> As for your disabled son and the Head Start Program, sad as that situation is, it has nothing to do with this illegal immigration thread.
> 
> ...


Thanks for answering the question.  Seems we might be even in the veterans category .  One of my fathers family members was with Washington at Delaware, when that was.  I am not going to look it up.

What I said does belong here as much as your claim that bleeding hearts do nothing.  I, like you, will not list everything I’ve done.  If what you said about bleeding hearts was meant towards me, and I believe it was and you didn’t deny this.

Then I DECIDE if I was insulted or not.  I was insulted.  You don’t get to decide how I or anyone else feels about your insulting, disrespectful remark.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 11, 2020)

Pete said:


> I would never blame anyone for wanting to have a better life.... but like my grandparents who were immigrants there is a right way and an illegal way.


When you're desperate, you take chances.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> When you're desperate, you take chances.


Yes but this particular pursuit can end in death for either side which is not good.


----------



## AnnieA (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> When you're desperate, you take chances.



Trouble is, if it's not legal, who's to know what 'desperate' means?   One woman I saw interviewed at the Mexican border said she left Guatemala because her electricity bill kept increasing.   She looked extremely well fed as well.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> While you gave interesting facts, @JimBob1952  which I already knew btw, you're not seeing the situation realistically, but how you would like it to be.
> 
> Immigrants are going to come.  They couldn't care less about your facts.  In my area it is Russians, Ukrainians, other Eastern bloc,  and a few blocks north, the Chinese.  "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"  Nope, they are already here.  No one asked me.  No one asked you.  It was all politics and has naught to do with what the general public wants.  I'm an expert on Russian immigration and how it has affected our native Hispanic (Puerto Ricans) and black populations.
> 
> ...





Pepper said:


> While you gave interesting facts, @JimBob1952  which I already knew btw, you're not seeing the situation realistically, but how you would like it to be.
> 
> Immigrants are going to come.  They couldn't care less about your facts.  In my area it is Russians, Ukrainians, other Eastern bloc,  and a few blocks north, the Chinese.  "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"  Nope, they are already here.  No one asked me.  No one asked you.  It was all politics and has naught to do with what the general public wants.  I'm an expert on Russian immigration and how it has affected our native Hispanic (Puerto Ricans) and black populations.
> 
> ...





Pepper said:


> While you gave interesting facts, @JimBob1952  which I already knew btw, you're not seeing the situation realistically, but how you would like it to be.
> 
> Immigrants are going to come.  They couldn't care less about your facts.  In my area it is Russians, Ukrainians, other Eastern bloc,  and a few blocks north, the Chinese.  "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"  Nope, they are already here.  No one asked me.  No one asked you.  It was all politics and has naught to do with what the general public wants.  I'm an expert on Russian immigration and how it has affected our native Hispanic (Puerto Ricans) and black populations.
> 
> ...




Since I seem to irritate you so much -- to the point where you are calling me anal, a snowflake and other unpleasantries -- I suggest you use the "ignore" button and filter out my comments.  I've used it on a couple of other SF folks and it works like a charm.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 11, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Since I seem to irritate you so much -- to the point where you are calling me anal, a snowflake and other unpleasantries -- *I suggest you use the "ignore" button *and filter out my comments.  I've used it on a couple of other SF folks and it works like a charm.


Never!  I  You!

Ps--Everyone eventually irritates me, except my grandson.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Trouble is, if it's not legal, who's to know what 'desperate' means?   One woman I saw interviewed at the Mexican border said she left Guatemala because her electricity bill kept increasing.   She looked extremely well fed as well.


OMGosh a lot of people who are starving “look” well fed.  Starving babies have huge bellies.  Starving people, and starving people in the USA, look overweight as they eat a lot of potatoes and other starchy foods, which are a cheap food.  Looks mean nothing.

Just like the guy who drives up in a Mercedes to the food bank, so what, people lose their houses and live in their cars.   Looks mean nothing.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Never!  I  You!
> 
> Ps--Everyone eventually irritates me, except my grandson.


I have irritated you on and off and I  you, mostly


----------



## AnnieA (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> OMGosh a lot of people who are starving “look” well fed.  Starving babies have huge bellies.  Starving people, and starving people in the USA, look overweight as they eat a lot of potatoes and other starchy foods, which are a cheap food.  Looks mean nothing.
> 
> Just like the guy who drives up in a Mercedes to the food bank, so what, people lose their houses and live in their cars.   Looks mean nothing.



Did you miss the point that she was attempting an illegal act in the US because her utility bills went up in Guatemala?  If my utility bills go up, is it okay for me to violate federal laws?


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 11, 2020)

Well, you got a funny way of showing it, just saying.  

I'm out of time today.  I'll post something more constructive on this topic tomorrow.


----------



## Lewkat (Dec 11, 2020)

Did you read all the comments prior to my making the bleeding hearts comment, Aneeda?  If you wish to be insulted, so be it.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> Did you miss the point that she was attempting an illegal act in the US because her utility bills went up in Guatemala?  If my utility bills go up, is it okay for me to violate federal laws?


It’s ok for you to move to Guatemala if you want but, apparently, you won’t save money on your electric bill.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Dec 11, 2020)

As I see it, some people sneak into the US, and a strange thing happens. They don't starve to death. Even when it is "illegal" to hire them, they find jobs. Yeah, they are crummy jobs, with crummy wages- but they are hired. So, there is a economic need for people desperate enough to take crummy jobs at crummy pay. The problem seems to be that no one respects that laws of the US-not the people sneaking into the US, nor those hiring them. We could continue pretending that this is not happening. Our immigration laws have to be flexible to enough to increase in times of great desperation to the extent that their numbers can be absorbed into the economy.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> Did you read all the comments prior to my making the bleeding hearts comment, Aneeda?  If you wish to be insulted, so be it.


I did Read the whole thing.

I appreciate your giving me permission to be insulted, but I don’t need your permission for that either.  We disagree on this issue, I feel you insulted and disrespected me, by the bleeding heart comment.  And I agree, I am a bleeding heart about most everything, but I don’t sit back and do nothing.  “Fight, fight, against the dying of the light.”

I also saw my ten month old illegal Mexican foster baby returned to Mexico before he could get eye or open heart surgery.  It breaks my heart.  I know he died.  It was the second time he and his mother survived the journey.  His mother was returned earlier to Mexico.  My adopted son’s Hispanic mother put him up for adoption right away.  We received him at six weeks of age directly from the ICU, smarter biological mother.

But please keep in mind this disagreement does not in anyway mean that I like you less, cause I like you a lot, I read your posts, and appreciate and mostly agree with them.  I just wanted to make this clear:  I never hold even a small grudge and others have said worst things directly to me.  .  I am very opinionated.

It is all water under the bridge as the duck swims on (as in water off a ducks back).


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> As I see it, some people sneak into the US, and a strange thing happens. They don't starve to death. Even when it is "illegal" to hire them, they find jobs. Yeah, they are crummy jobs, with crummy wages- but they are hired. So, there is a economic need for people desperate enough to take crummy jobs at crummy pay. The problem seems to be that no one respects that laws of the US-not the people sneaking into the US, nor those hiring them. We could continue pretending that this is not happening. Our immigration laws have to be flexible to enough to increase in times of great desperation to the extent that their numbers can be absorbed into the economy.


Or we could just let the crops rot in the fields, I don’t like veggies anyway.


----------



## DonnyO (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> OMGosh a lot of people who are starving “look” well fed.  Starving babies have huge bellies.  Starving people, and starving people in the USA, look overweight as they eat a lot of potatoes and other starchy foods, which are a cheap food.  Looks mean nothing.
> 
> Just like the guy who drives up in a Mercedes to the food bank, so what, people lose their houses and live in their cars.   Looks mean nothing.


Malnutrition has a unique look.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

DonnyO said:


> Malnutrition has a unique look.


In some cases, in others no.  I was labeled as an adult failure to thrive senior in 2018 even though I was, well, still am a bit, well, more than a bit, tubby.  I don’t like protein, it’s very hard for me to digest so I eat very little of it.  I look pregnant due to gastroparesis.  I don’t like veggies, avoid them like the virus.  I do however love carbs and sugar.  

Yup, it’s a hard life.


----------



## HoneyNut (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.



I don't think that is how economics works, I find economics very mysterious, but apparently prosperity has something to do with productivity or gross domestic product or something, and seems like the more people you have working then the more product there is and the richer everyone becomes?  
I live near a town of 5000 people and there are limited jobs in the local town, but the town 35 miles away grew to a million people and there are lots of jobs available there.  What I don't understand is where the money comes from when an economy grows, there must be billions more dollars existing now than used to exist, and we don't have bad inflation/devaluation of the currency.
But anyway, I don't think we need to be afraid of immigrants (either legal or illegal) causing us to run out of jobs or money, but we need good processes for getting (and keeping) people productive, and for responding to change (such as like this year covid causing some jobs to be lost, but other different jobs to be added).


----------



## DonnyO (Dec 11, 2020)

Medically, failure to thrive is more of a diagnosis of how well you are doing at home.  Not necessariy how well your fed.  Physical and cognitive decline this is, "Adult failure to thrive."


----------



## Elsie (Dec 11, 2020)

Question:  In the beginning:  What prevented the immigrants' home nations' from utilizing their country's natural/nature's resources to bring about better living conditions for the people?  The U S A has gone through nature's wrath, hard living, some going through starvation, lack of medical help, bigotry. racism, plus harmful political agendas, yet we've still manage to survive together as one nation.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Yeah what Elsie said!


----------



## AnnieA (Dec 11, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> As I see it, some people sneak into the US, and a strange thing happens. They don't starve to death. Even when it is "illegal" to hire them, they find jobs. Yeah, they are crummy jobs, with crummy wages- but they are hired. So, there is a economic need for people desperate enough to take crummy jobs at crummy pay. The problem seems to be that no one respects that laws of the US-not the people sneaking into the US, nor those hiring them. We could continue pretending that this is not happening. Our immigration laws have to be flexible to enough to increase in times of great desperation to the extent that their numbers can be absorbed into the economy.



Oh, great post!  Immigration laws do need changing based on US workforce needs with a merit based provision for citizenship after a defined amount of time. Needed as well are enforced parameters of what constitutes refugee status and a enforced number of how many refugees can enter over a time span.    

Enforced is the key.


----------



## Murrmurr (Dec 11, 2020)

Elsie said:


> Question:  In the beginning:  *What prevented the immigrants' home nations' from utilizing their country's natural/nature's resources to bring about better living conditions* for the people?  The U S A has gone through nature's wrath, hard living, some going through starvation, lack of medical help, bigotry. racism, plus harmful political agendas, yet we've still manage to survive together as one nation.


Corrupt government and in some cases, civil war or unrest. Actually, those go hand-in-hand. And in some of those cases, the US has intervened diplomatically and/or militarily, which hasn't always had the desired effect. If we intervened militarily where Mexico is concerned (we've pretty much exhausted the diplomatic route) I think the global reaction would be very negative to say the least.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

You know it's just a damn shame that governments get to screw things up all they want.


----------



## Lewkat (Dec 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I did Read the whole thing.
> 
> I appreciate your giving me permission to be insulted, but I don’t need your permission for that either.  We disagree on this issue, I feel you insulted and disrespected me, by the bleeding heart comment.  And I agree, I am a bleeding heart about most everything, but I don’t sit back and do nothing.  “Fight, fight, against the dying of the light.”
> 
> ...


I did not in any way render permission to you to feel insulted.  I cannot for the life of me how you extrapolated that from what I wrote.  I did say, if you chose to be insulted, so be it.  I neither can stop you from being so nor tell you that you must be.  

Listen Aneeda, I, in no way can empathize with these people since I've not had their problems, but I definitely do sympathize with their plight.  That does not mean that I condone them breaking the law of our land.  I've witnessed many terrible injustices in my long lifetime and when I knew that was wrong I did something about it.  In essence, I am what is called an anti-federalist, so that when a Constitution was finally framed to meet the needs of the land along with the Bill of Rights, I then became a federalist and staunchly will defend  those sacred laws to the death.  I have zero tolerance for anyone who ignores same.  I am not talking about minor infractions, but real felonies.


In your case, again, this is a matter of how did the baby come to be here illegally, and why was he sent back so cavalierly?  

Those of us born in America hit the greatest lotto ever dealt by our Creator, for sure.  I believe in helping the downtrodden and have on many occasions, but don't even try to convince me that folks attempting to walk into this country undocumented deserve to be excused.  And I am speaking of those from all nations who try this.  One other thing that galls me, if someone has the money, he/she will get in here without proper documentation.  That is just a rotten realism and unfair all around.

As for your experience, I am sorry you went through that.  And don't worry, I don't dislike or unfriend and ignore folks just because  we have different opinions and see the world through different eyes.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 11, 2020)

Murrmurr said:


> Corrupt government and in some cases, civil war or unrest. Actually, those go hand-in-hand. And in some of those cases, the US has intervened diplomatically and/or militarily, which hasn't always had the desired effect. If we intervened militarily where Mexico is concerned (we've pretty much exhausted the diplomatic route) I think the global reaction would be very negative to say the least.


You seem smart.  You must know the history of Central America somewhat?  United Fruit and other powerful landowners, including many Americans, and other American companies took over the economies of these nations.  The native people were barely higher than serfs.  Their economy was raped, robbed and destroyed by mostly Americans.  We ruined them for decades.  Look it up, look up the history & relationships of C.A. & America.  Their puppet governments were put in power by US, we overthrew people who were not good for United Fruit.  Study this, then you will learn why it grew in to what we have today.


----------



## Murrmurr (Dec 11, 2020)

Pepper said:


> You seem smart.  You must know the history of Central America somewhat?  United Fruit and other powerful landowners, including many Americans, and other American companies took over the economies of these nations.  The native people were barely higher than serfs.  Their economy was raped, robbed and destroyed by mostly Americans.  We ruined them for decades.  Look it up, look up the history & relationships of C.A. & America.  Their puppet governments were put in power by US, we overthrew people who were not good for United Fruit.  Study this, then you will learn why it grew in to what we have today.


Yes, I'm familiar with the Banana War and the Arab Spring and similar examples.


----------



## Nathan (Dec 11, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO this topic is more about bad policy than it is about bad people.
> 
> We need to find a way to welcome and document these valuable human resources so that everyone involved can benefit legally.


Thank you!   

The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain.     The politicians_ could have_ figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 11, 2020)

Do you really think they'd give us the time let alone tell us the truth Nathan?


----------



## Chet (Dec 11, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> As I see it, some people sneak into the US, and a strange thing happens. They don't starve to death. Even when it is "illegal" to hire them, they find jobs. Yeah, they are crummy jobs, with crummy wages- but they are hired. So, there is a economic need for people desperate enough to take crummy jobs at crummy pay.


I have seen roofing being performed by what I took to be illegalls since they wear hoodies even in summer when it's hot to make identity difficult. Contractors hire them to save money while Americans need and will do the same job. I will only let work be done on my house by Americans even if I pay a little more.


----------



## Murrmurr (Dec 11, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Thank you!
> 
> The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain.     The politicians_ could have_ figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".


If you asked _me_ I'd say that 9-11 was the impetus for policies that are not so rational or effective some 20 years later.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Thank you!
> 
> The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain.     The politicians_ could have_ figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".


Nathan, you think maybe Big Agriculture could have something to do with it?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I did not in any way render permission to you to feel insulted.  I cannot for the life of me how you extrapolated that from what I wrote.  I did say, if you chose to be insulted, so be it.  I neither can stop you from being so nor tell you that you must be.
> 
> Listen Aneeda, I, in no way can empathize with these people since I've not had their problems, but I definitely do sympathize with their plight.  That does not mean that I condone them breaking the law of our land.  I've witnessed many terrible injustices in my long lifetime and when I knew that was wrong I did something about it.  In essence, I am what is called an anti-federalist, so that when a Constitution was finally framed to meet the needs of the land along with the Bill of Rights, I then became a federalist and staunchly will defend  those sacred laws to the death.  I have zero tolerance for anyone who ignores same.  I am not talking about minor infractions, but real felonies.
> 
> ...


I guess I want everyone to see the people and the children, especially, that are being harmed by the refusal of our country to “allow” immigrants  a fast and reasonable path to citizenship while using those same immigrants, and their children, to pick our fields for slave wages while living in inhumane conditions.

Then, when we are finished with their services, we shove them back across the border, eat the bounty of their efforts, and never give them a second thought.  It is wrong.  It has always been wrong.  It continues today.

When I had my landscaping done at my last house, I was asked do you want to use the documented Hispanic crew or the undocumented one? .  The undocumented one was cheaper.  I used the documented crew.  I was sad to do so, but I could not support human bondage, and IMO, since the other crew was not paid the same, it was a bondage situation.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 11, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> I did not in any way render permission to you to feel insulted.  I cannot for the life of me how you extrapolated that from what I wrote.  I did say, if you chose to be insulted, so be it.  I neither can stop you from being so nor tell you that you must be.
> 
> Listen Aneeda, I, in no way can empathize with these people since I've not had their problems, but I definitely do sympathize with their plight.  That does not mean that I condone them breaking the law of our land.  I've witnessed many terrible injustices in my long lifetime and when I knew that was wrong I did something about it.  In essence, I am what is called an anti-federalist, so that when a Constitution was finally framed to meet the needs of the land along with the Bill of Rights, I then became a federalist and staunchly will defend  those sacred laws to the death.  I have zero tolerance for anyone who ignores same.  I am not talking about minor infractions, but real felonies.
> 
> ...


Forgot to respond about the baby.  This was decades ago and I lived in Orange County, California.  The mother came across illegally which was still dangerous, but safer than now. The baby was removed as the mother had left and the relatives could not care for him.

His eyes were crossed so all he could see was his nose.  (Both my adopted sons had this condition and we had corrective surgery for them).  The baby was profoundly mentally retarded but like all DS kids a happy, happy guy.  He also need open heart surgery.  He was given California medicaid at the time.  Before he could have his surgeries and he was removed and returned to Mexico.  I was not told why.

The 12 year old my daughter had that was returned, was returned because the social worker had missed certain dates to file certain paperwork.  This failure made that child ineligible for adoption (my daughter wanted to adopt her), make her illegal, and she was returned to Mexico.

It was such a screw up.  My daughter quit foster care over it.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 11, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Who is this "we" you speak of?   The British?   The French?   The Spanish?  In case you have forgotten history, that's the way it worked back then.  The countries/empires with the biggest armies took the lands they wanted.  So tell it to someone who doesn't understand how this all came to be.


Talking about us Americans in our westward expansion.  Ever hear about the Trail of Tears, and such?


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Do the immigrants pay taxes? If not which all the ones I know don't...then they are only adding to our financial issues such as SS problems.
> 
> We have enough people in the US. I think at some point we need to take care of our own. No offense.


People who don't pay Medicare taxes and have enough documented quarters worked cannot benefit from SS.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 11, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Well my question is this...what happens when we have too many immigrants and there's not enough jobs for us to take care of ourselves? Then what? At some point the population is gonna go bust.



I live in an area of the country that has a lot of undocumented immigrant workers.  Those I see are not taking jobs from Americans, they are doing jobs Americans won't do, like working long hours in our blazing sun at the backbreaking job of picking chile and other produce.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 11, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Question-When the parent's  drop off the kids at the border and split-where do they go: they assume the U S A will do
> something with these children-would you drop off your children hoping they are cared for?
> 
> The 'dreamers' are older, able to understand, their dreams are not yet extinguished.
> ...



Most of the DACA folks came here as small children with their parents and this is the only home they've ever known.  It wasn't their wrongdoing when they crossed the border illegally.  They have to have been under the age of 31 in 2012, came to the US before they were 16,  and have lived in the country continuously since  2007.  Most of them are grown now and most are in schools or colleges or have jobs and are contributing members of our society.  A fair number of them are doctors and nurses.  To qualify, they must be in schools or working, have graduated high school or have a GED, or have been discharged honorably in the US armed forces, and have not been convicted of a felony or serious misdemeanor, and are not deemed to be a threat to national security.

This is a discrete pool of folks who have to meet the residence since 2007, age and dates of entry requirements, and more cannot come in under those conditions because those dates are past, so it's not like a neverending stream.  

Most of them have nowhere to go back to where they have any ties or family and a great many of them speak only English and, except for their birthplace, most of them are as American as you or I.

IMHO, just because their parents brought them here as little kids or babies, to dump them in the middle of, say, Guatemala or somewhere where they have no ties or cultural history or language is unconscionable.  And what's the point of doing that?  What good does that do for America?


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 12, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life.
> 
> i have to have a passport even to travel to Canada. Immigration law applies to me. Why shouldn’t it apply to someone from Guatemala?


  Here in Canada, as a child,  my mother rented me out  to various paedophiles. Nice safe middle class family? I wasn’t the only one in that stable. I was fortunate to only be  a part time slave. The others couldn’t leave. This evil is everywhere. Can happen to anyone.


----------



## FastTrax (Dec 12, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Fun topic
> 
> 
> Anybody ready for a pizza?
> ...




JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZ Garo O' Go big or go home huh. I love pizza but the Sicilian type and I have a NYC street corner Sabrett dirty water dog a Jamaican beef patty and last but not least a Pastelia.










Not greedy mind you......just hungry.


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## Sunny (Dec 12, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I live in an area of the country that has a lot of undocumented immigrant workers.  Those I see are not taking jobs from Americans, they are doing jobs Americans won't do, like working long hours in our blazing sun at the backbreaking job of picking chile and other produce.


Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread.  This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it.* They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!*

If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.

C'est Moi,
_"What you fail to see is that many of these minors are being trafficked and will wind up in prostitution or porn. Hardly an opportunity for a better life."_

Um,  where did this insane idea come from?  Is this the infamous "minors being trafficked in pizza parlors" lie?  We can't prove that they are taking ANY jobs away from Americans, so let's spread a rumor about using kids for prostitution?

If there were any truth to this, it would be splashed all over every newspaper in America, and we'd be hearing about it endlessly on CNN and the other news channels.  

Yes, there is prostitution, and there is abuse of kids. So what else is new?  Why tie these crimes to the immigrants?  Sounds a lot more like a Mafia thing than an immigrant thing, to me.

If you have any proof of these allegations against the immigrants, please show us some.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread.  This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it.* They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!*
> 
> If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.
> 
> ...


I'll agree, of course, that human trafficking exists.  However, we were talking about the DACA group, and almost universally these folks are people who were brought as children into the country by their own parents and whose families lived here under the radar for years.  They were the children of the guy who cut your lawn or worked in some kitchen or a whole buncha other sorta invisible jobs.  Now the kids are growing/have grown up, having lived most of their lives here and they want to go on being contributing members of society.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 12, 2020)

Agreed. When I said that yes, prostitution exists, etc., I did not mean among the immigrants (any more than among anybody else.) The only accusations I have heard along those lines were obviously political, and we can't bring this discussion over there.

If there is any evidence that this is true, I'd like to see what the source is. As I said, it would be pretty big news, and we'd be bombarded with it.


----------



## C'est Moi (Dec 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread.  This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it.* They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!*
> 
> If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.
> 
> ...



In your rush to virtue signal, you have obviously mixed up some posts.  I'm not going to reread this thread for you, but I never said anything about "prostitution or porn", so don't be attributing someone else's words to me.  

As for the menial jobs, there are GREEN CARDS available for anyone wanting to work in the USA LEGALLY.

And I am done with this thread.  It's a pointless exercise for people whose minds are already made up.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 12, 2020)

I beg your pardon, C'est Moi, you are right, that statement was made by Carol, and my answer should have been addressed to her.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 13, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> In your rush to virtue signal, you have obviously mixed up some posts.  I'm not going to reread this thread for you, but I never said anything about "prostitution or porn", so don't be attributing someone else's words to me.
> 
> As for the menial jobs, there are GREEN CARDS available for anyone wanting to work in the USA LEGALLY.
> 
> And I am done with this thread.  It's a pointless exercise for people whose minds are already made up.



Green cards are for legal permanent residence.  Do you have any idea of the requirements and the red tape and expense involved in someone's getting a green card? The fees alone are over $1,200, and they take around 3 years to process.  You can't even apply for a green card if you've entered the country illegally.

What we need is some kind of simple visa or something to allow migrant farm workers and others to come and go into the country legally to do things like pick crops, etc.  Because without those migrant farm workers, crops would rot in the fields in many places.


----------



## Pepper (Dec 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I beg your pardon, C'est Moi, you are right, that statement was made by Carol, and my answer should have been addressed to her.


It is hard to tell them apart most times.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 13, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Green cards are for legal permanent residence.  Do you have any idea of the requirements and the red tape and expense involved in someone's getting a green card? The fees alone are over $1,200, and they take around 3 years to process.  You can't even apply for a green card if you've entered the country illegally.
> 
> What we need is some kind of simple visa or something to allow migrant farm workers and others to come and go into the country legally to do things like pick crops, etc.  Because without those migrant farm workers, crops would rot in the fields in many places.


Yup cause us hungry unemployed spoiled rotten Americans, for the most, part will let them rot in the fields rather than pick them.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Exactly, Butterfly. As I've been trying to say in this thread.  This is a well-known fact, usually ignored or brushed aside by those who don't want to hear it.* They are doing the work that most Americans don't want to do!!!!*
> 
> If jobs picking crops, cleaning bathrooms, and doing landscaping work in all sorts of weather were in such short supply, with heavy competition to get one of those wonderful jobs, why would these people be risking life and limb in the hope that they'll get one? They'd stay where they are, instead of taking desperate measures to get here.
> 
> ...




No one is saying that these are wonderful jobs.  

But cleaning bathrooms would be less awful if it paid $20 per hour instead of $10 per hour.  

However, an oversupply of unskilled, non-English speaking people willing to do this work for $10 per hour virtually ensures that the wage for such work will not go up to $20 per hour.  

This is basic economics, the law of supply and demand.  An oversupply of labor drives wages down.  

That is all I'm saying.   I have a lot of regard for the character and work ethic of people willing to do these jobs.  I think that a lot of business owners prefer hiring illegal workers, not only because they work for less but because they work hard.  

People complain that wages for unskilled workers haven't gone up in real terms for 40 years.  But that stagnation coincides with the arrival of millions of undocumented, unskilled workers here.  It's cause and effect.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 13, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Thank you!
> 
> The U.S. economy needs an underclass of workers who are under some kind of duress to work low wage, menial jobs and be afraid to complain.     The politicians_ could have_ figured out how to create a rational and effective immigration policy at any time in the last 60 years, but have chosen NOT to do so. Why? Well don't ask me, write your Congressional representatives and ask them "why".



You make a good point.  US employers benefit from cheap labor.  So do consumers.  That doesn't mean we should let people stream across the border.  

I think we should emulate Canada.  Canada has virtually no illegal immigrants, and doesn't need border fences.  That's because anybody entering Canada illegally has absolutely no access to any sort of government services.  That means schools, drivers' licenses, health care, you name it.  It's a cheap and very effective way to keep people out.  

With immigration policy fixed, we could do three things:  

1) Expand and improve pathways for legal immigration, including asylum;  

2) Come up with a humane and rational way to "citizenize" people already here; and

3) Provide better pay and working conditions for people doing the jobs "Americans won't do".


----------



## JimBob1952 (Dec 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Nathan, you think maybe Big Agriculture could have something to do with it?



It's not just Big Agriculture, it's the contractor who picks up bunch of undocumented guys in the Home Depot parking lot for a day's work.  

Also meatpackers, fast food, many others.


----------



## Don M. (Dec 13, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> It's not just Big Agriculture, it's the contractor who picks up bunch of undocumented guys in the Home Depot parking lot for a day's work.
> Also meatpackers, fast food, many others.



For Sure.  Our area has lots of chicken/turkey farms, and there is a huge processing plant in a town about 30 miles away.  If you go to the Walmart there in the evenings, or weekends, you almost feel like you have suddenly been transported to Mexico....90% of the customers babbling in Spanish.


----------



## Nathan (Dec 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Nathan, you think maybe Big Agriculture could have something to do with it?


Living in a border state most of my life- I remember the Bracero Program, a sensible, straight forward means for seasonal migrant workers to LEGALLY come across the border, work and return home.


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## MarciKS (Dec 13, 2020)

Why would an employer want to hire someone for $20 an hr when he could get someone for $10 an hr? Hence the taking our jobs remark. Perhaps this is what is also keeping wages low enough it's hard to get by.


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## Butterfly (Dec 13, 2020)

Don M. said:


> For Sure.  Our area has lots of chicken/turkey farms, and there is a huge processing plant in a town about 30 miles away.  If you go to the Walmart there in the evenings, or weekends, you almost feel like you have suddenly been transported to Mexico....90% of the customers babbling in Spanish.


"Babbling?"  Folks  speaking Spanish are "babbling?"  Would it be "babbling" if they were speaking in German or French or Italian?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 14, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Why would an employer want to hire someone for $20 an hr when he could get someone for $10 an hr? Hence the taking our jobs remark. Perhaps this is what is also keeping wages low enough it's hard to get by.


Pickers are not paid by the hour.

But suppose they were.  Would you pick cotton for 20 an hour?-or strawberries, or tomatoes or any other crop in 100 plus weather for months?  With no job during the winter months, no health insurance, no schooling for your children, and traveling from field to field, farm to farm for months.

You will live in a run down shack, or your car, or an old RV, or a transit motel.  Your children will work in the fields with you, baby tied on your back.  You will use an outdoor potty.  No showers for the most part.  You will buy your food from the company store.

I could go on and go.  Educate yourself on the plight of transitory workers, so we can have a realistic conversation.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Dec 14, 2020)

Don M. said:


> For Sure.  Our area has lots of chicken/turkey farms, and there is a huge processing plant in a town about 30 miles away.  If you go to the Walmart there in the evenings, or weekends, you almost feel like you have suddenly been transported to Mexico....90% of the customers babbling in Spanish.


While a lot of Americans babble in English about the bi-lingual, for the most part, Hispanics who are babbling in Spanish, .  Cause, you know, you are at the Wal-mart as well, just saying.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 14, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Pickers are not paid by the hour.
> 
> But suppose they were.  Would you pick cotton for 20 an hour?-or strawberries, or tomatoes or any other crop in 100 plus weather for months?  With no job during the winter months, no health insurance, no schooling for your children, and traveling from field to field, farm to farm for months.
> 
> ...



Yup on all counts.  Chili pickers here are paid by the bucketfull, and it's a pittance.

Another thing, no workers' compensation insurance for migrant farm workers, so when you wreck your back working stooped over in the blazing heat, you're just outa luck -- or if you get sick or too old to work at the pace required.

Whenever anyone makes a serious attempt to clamp down on farmers who hire migrant workers, or force them to pay minimum wage, or properly report their wages to the DOL, they scream bloody murder to their legislatures and any bills for reform are shot down in flames, because, of course, food prices would go up if they had to treat the farmworkers humanely, and we certainly can't have that, can we?  So they just keep on keepin' on, DOL looks the other way, legislatures look the other way, and nothing changes.


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## Don M. (Dec 14, 2020)

Migrant farmworkers have been a part of American agriculture for many decades.  I was born on a farm in Colorado, and hiring migrant workers to help harvest the Sugar Beet crops was considered necessary back in the 1940's.  The pay these people receive is nowhere near what American workers consider normal....but, even so, these migrant workers are able to send millions of dollar/yr. back to their families in Mexico, etc.  Were it not for these funds, there would be even more poverty in Central America.  Is it fair?...probably not...but it is a reflection of the conditions that exist in these nations.  
People in the U.S. complain about "income inequality", but many of our people who are "living in poverty" would be considered pretty well off in some of these nations to our South.


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## FastTrax (Dec 16, 2020)

This is not immigration, this is desperation. The people who risk it all to flee their countries who eat their young.











www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10215.pdf

www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/06/05/318905712/riding-the-beast-across-mexico-to-the-u-s-border

www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/oct/05/riding-the-beast-child-migrants-reveal-full-horror-of-their-journeys-to-us

www.globalvoices.org/2011/08/08/mexicos-train-of-death/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_tren_de_la_muerte


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## MarciKS (Dec 16, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> This is not immigration, this is desperation. The people who risk it all to flee their countries who eat their young.
> 
> View attachment 139817
> 
> ...


I work with a mexican woman that goes home every so often and she said the border is terrifying. One trip they almost got carjacked.


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## FastTrax (Dec 16, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I work with a mexican woman that goes home every so often and she said the border is terrifying. One trip they almost got carjacked.



Almost? That would have been the end of it for me. Like the lucrative dope and human trafficking trades a large part of this crime against humanity could be curtailed if the fruit and vegetable producers would stop their unconscionable exploitation of desperate migrants.


----------



## MarciKS (Dec 16, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> Almost? That would have been the end of it for me. Like the lucrative dope and human trafficking trades a large part of this crime against humanity could be curtailed if the fruit and vegetable producers would stop their unconscionable exploitation of desperate migrants.


She had to go to be with her father. He was dying.


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## FastTrax (Dec 16, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> She had to go to be with her father. He was dying.



I understand now. Please give her my blessings and I will be praying for both father and daughter.


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## MarciKS (Dec 16, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> I understand now. Please give her my blessings and I will be praying for both father and daughter.


He died hon. That was a couple years ago. She had to go again last year when her mother got sick and they made it through ok. It just makes her super nervous.


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## CarolfromTX (Dec 16, 2020)

My daughter used to work for CPS. So I have some first hand info.  Do you honestly think unaccompanied minors are not being taken advantage of? Then you're an idiot.


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## Aneeda72 (Dec 16, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> My daughter used to work for CPS. So I have some first hand info.  Do you honestly think unaccompanied minors are not being taken advantage of? Then you're an idiot.


Do you honestly think that minors born and raised in the USA are not being taken advantage of?  American raised abused white children, who are minors, are taken advantage of just as much, if not more, than minors left at the border towns.  

Ignorance is bliss, but to believe that only Hispanic minors in Mexico are being taken advantage of is beyond idiotic.  My daughter worked for the State of Utah writing immigrant contracts for social services, and did foster care.

So just who do you think is an idiot?  Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## FastTrax (Dec 16, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Do you honestly think that minors born and raised in the USA are not being taken advantage of?  American raised abused white children, who are minors, are taken advantage of just as much, if not more, than minors left at the border towns.
> 
> Ignorance is bliss, but to believe that only Hispanic minors in Mexico are being taken advantage of is beyond idiotic.  My daughter worked for the State of Utah writing immigrant contracts for social services, and did foster care.
> 
> So just who do you think is an idiot?  Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## FastTrax (Dec 16, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> He died hon. That was a couple years ago. She had to go again last year when her mother got sick and they made it through ok. It just makes her super nervous.



Sorry to hear that. I remember a video of a couple of CBP agents assigned to Orlando International Airport were ecstatic to garner enough seniority to get rotated out from the CBP Station at McAllen Texas. They don't get paid nearly enough to endure the Southwest border.


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## Youngatheart (Dec 22, 2020)

Christopher Columbus entered America illegally.


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## doat (Dec 22, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Then everyone without Native American Indian blood needs to leave, now.


We are all products of the big bang, which goes back even farther. We are more commonly known as the "Big bangers".


----------



## C'est Moi (Dec 22, 2020)

Youngatheart said:


> Christopher Columbus entered America illegally.


So which nation's laws did he break?


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## Youngatheart (Dec 22, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> So which nation's laws did he break?


Native Americans


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## Youngatheart (Dec 23, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> So which nation's laws did he break?





Butterfly said:


> We didn't worry about immigration laws, we just killed the ones that got in our way, or marched them onto "reservations."


Unwritten law. The fact that someone does't speak your language doesn't give you the right to make your own laws and rob him from his basic human rights.


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## C'est Moi (Dec 23, 2020)

Youngatheart said:


> Native Americans


Not hardly.   Columbus actually landed in the Bahamas.   Nice try, though.   https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/oct12/columbus-makes-landfall-caribbean/


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## FastTrax (Dec 23, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Not hardly.   Columbus actually landed in the Bahamas.   Nice try, though.   https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/oct12/columbus-makes-landfall-caribbean/



BIG TEN



Merry XMAS.


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## Lewkat (Dec 23, 2020)

Most of these arguments re: Columbus, et al are ridiculous.  It was a different world back then and has nothing to do with today's laws at all.  Another 5 or 6 hundred years down the road will end in the same innocuous arguments.


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## Youngatheart (Dec 23, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Not hardly.   Columbus actually landed in the Bahamas.   Nice try, though.   https://www.nationalgeographic.org/thisday/oct12/columbus-makes-landfall-caribbean/


The country of Bahamas is in the *North America* continent and the latitude and longitude for the country are 24.3196° N, 76.2765° W.


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## Don M. (Dec 23, 2020)

Human history is filled with events of a stronger society overwhelming a weaker one.  Things are no different today, than when the Cro-Magnon began to replace the Neanderthals.  References to Columbus and the European "invasion" of North America are a good example.  The Europeans were largely united in their goals, whereas the Native American Indians were more concerned with fighting each other.  

The Latino immigration in the past few decades will Also "modify" our society.  An organization called La Raza has lobbied for decades for returning much of our SW to Mexico....which they claim was taken illegally during the Mexican/American war.  However, since open warfare is Not an option, a huge increase in ethnic population will eventually accomplish the goal.  The day may well come when California changes its name to Mexifornia, and New Mexico may drop the "New" from its name.  

As birthrates among the Caucasian societies continue to decline, while those in the Latino, African, and Arabic ethnicities continue to climb, the day may come when current societies in North America and Europe also become "history".


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## DonnyO (Jul 18, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> , ugh, just ugh, if only I could say what I am thinking.
> 
> @Knight are you under the impressions that thousands, if not millions, of Americans would not do this very thing if it were possible?  Of course they would!  It is just as hard to adopt as it is to cross the border.
> 
> ...


It's not had to cross the border at all. Check the videos, theres tons of it.  Virtue signal much.


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## Shalimar (Jul 18, 2022)

DonnyO said:


> It's not had to cross the border at all. Check the videos, theres tons of it.  Virtue signal much.


This is an old thread, and Aneeda no longer posts here. The point of attacking her would be??


----------



## ElCastor (Jul 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


Many of these people "seeking a better life" bring with them tons of drugs, guns, and gang membership. Will millions of these seekers bring a better life for us all, or in the end will they drag us down to the level of the countries they are fleeing? Look what unimpeded immigration is doing to Europe. Around 10% of the population of France is Muslim and growing. Areas of France are now governed by de-facto Shariah law. Do we not have a right to regulate immigration? Canada certainly does, as does virtually every country in the world, even if for some it has become more theoretical than real.


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## SeniorBen (Jul 19, 2022)

...


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## Alligatorob (Jul 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life. Or are you?


I don't blame people who want to emigrate for a better life.  And I think that describes the vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal.  Mostly law abiding good people.

Problem is I don't think we need any more people here, our population is already higher than I'd like.  That is the reason I think we need to better control immigration.  Maybe take a few people who can significantly contribute to our economy, but not a whole lot.  And no one else.  Short term work visas without the possibility of citizenship or permanence and no family members would also be ok.


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## Been There (Jul 19, 2022)

Worse mistake this president ever made. We will all pay a heavy price and be burdened with debt for his actions. I am not against anyone wanting a better life, but there are other ways to achieve it. One is to stay home, form your own militia and take charge of the government by seating their own choice to run the country and end the corruption. Two is to elect more honorable people that would build a substantial Army to remove the intolerant drug lords from power. Just like when the U.S. fought the British to absolve their power over this country, they would probably need to go to war to end the corruption and drug trafficking and reestablish an honest government. It is all about becoming patriots to your country and standing up and do what's right. If they don't do it now, when?  
"A country without borders is not a country."


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## rgp (Jul 19, 2022)

C'est Moi said:


> If they are doing so illegally, then yes.   They can stay in their own country and "seek a better life" instead of sneaking in here, then waiving the flag of the country they abandoned.


 Amen !!


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## dko1951 (Jul 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> If you mean coming legally to have a better life then no I don't blame them.
> 
> Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders?
> 
> ...


Not a bad idea, that adoption thing. If I could I would.


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## dko1951 (Jul 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> If you mean coming legally to have a better life then no I don't blame them.
> 
> Are you suggesting that America should be  without laws & borders?
> 
> ...


Having worked throughout the years with many illegals the problem lies in the countries they are trying to left. The process of attaining a visa is both very expensive and incredibly arduous. Most of those seeking a better life cannot afford and are usually not educated enough to work through the process. Most of us don't understand that these are pretty much very good people that love their families and only want a better life. They're almost as good as so many hear think they are.


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## Knight (Jul 19, 2022)

@dko1951
Quote
"Having worked throughout the years with many illegals the problem lies in the countries they are trying to left." 

That is true. 
Quote
"The process of attaining a visa is both very expensive and incredibly arduous. Most of those seeking a better life cannot afford and are usually not educated enough to work through the process."

Yet they somehow manage to pay coyotes.
Human smuggling fees | Open Borders: The Casehttps://openborders.info › human-smuggling-fees
Mexicans who enter the United States illegally by crossing the southern border pay coyote fees of about $3000-4000 (data from the Mexican Migration Project). 

Quote
 "Most of us don't understand that these are pretty much very good people that love their families and only want a better life. They're almost as good as so many hear think they are."

I think most do understand the majority are good people. But good should extend to doing the legal requirements.    

Can you explain this?
Quote
"They're almost as good as so many hear think they are."


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## dko1951 (Jul 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> @dko1951
> Quote
> "Having worked throughout the years with many illegals the problem lies in the countries they are trying to left."
> 
> ...


Certainly. It is very obvious that they have been portrayed as many things but good people by some public figures and some of news agencies. This portrayal is repeated so often that it has become the belief of many and they fail to see them as equals. As for them paying the kind of money they do to risk their lives goes back to my comments regarding the cost of getting a visa (much more) and the fact that an education is needed to get through the red tape. 
I agree we cannot just open our borders. There must be order to make the transition legal and safe. Our governments can work together and establish a system that works. The problem is there are too many in power that simply don't want these people coming here. It was said in another post that these people do the work most of us won't do. I have seen ranchers and others businesses try to hire locals and they leave for lunch and never come back or just don't show up. 
There was a program when I was young called "Bracero's Program" that allowed workers entry each day and they would return at night. I went to school the child of one of the workers. His father hoped a freight each way and earned enough to bring his family here and bought a  home, put his kids through college and retire. I realize time have changed and this can only be done locally.  Too much supervision and beyond red tape. Hope this answers your question. Thanks for responding. I like the talking it over stuff. Be well.


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## FastTrax (Jul 19, 2022)

Knight said:


> @dko1951
> Quote
> "Having worked throughout the years with many illegals the problem lies in the countries they are trying to left."
> 
> ...



Prolly gonna hit the edit icon instead of explaining that faux pas. After 24 hours it's officially on record.


----------



## Alligatorob (Jul 19, 2022)

dko1951 said:


> The problem is there are too many in power that simply don't want these people coming here.


Not just those in power, I believe we have enough, probably too many people here.  I think most immigrants are good people, and certainly our equals, but we only have so much room.


dko1951 said:


> Bracero Program


Would be a good example of something I think we should consider, short term work visas.  Actually the Bracero Program allowed more than just day labor.  It was particularly helpful during WWII supplying much needed labor.  

The important thing should be a program where visas were easy to get for labor we need, but temporary, not leading to permanent residence or citizenship.  Not sure how clear the Bracero Program was on that count.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 19, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You're not blaming people for seeking a better life.  Or are you?


No.   I think most of them were paid to bring idolatry to this country and to eventually gain more control of it.


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## Lilac (Jul 20, 2022)

If you want to come to this country, do so through legal means. Those that don't and come in illegally, are starting out as a law breaker. IMO, that is showing disregard for our laws and disrespect for our country.

There are advocates in this country who are applying their own ideas, beliefs, values, and morals to the people entering our country. They don't always think like you, and you're not going to change them to be like you. They have their own set of values they live by and those are not always good.

What about the American citizens that have been murdered/killed by illegals? Especially those illegals who have have been deported repeatedly only to keep returning. Do the people here have no rights?

There are more than just families coming across. Gangs are sending their soldiers in to set up shop in our country. Drugs are coming through along with human trafficking. Do you think all the kids that are unaccompanied were sent by their parents for a "better life"? How many have been abducted or even worse, sold?

I know several immigrants who came into this country legally and have worked hard to achieve their American dream and became citizens. They weren't rich when they arrived but managed to do it. They've put in long hours and raised their families without welfare. They are proud of this country and are upset about people not following the rules they had to when they came in.

My own family as well as my husband's came into this country legally starting in the 1800s and through the 1950s as well.

IMO, it's a slap in the face to all legal immigrants who have did everything lawfully to just allow others to come in illegally.


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## David777 (Jul 20, 2022)

Yes, Immigration Hurts American Workers...The candidates tell drastically different stories about immigration. They’re both skipping half the truth.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216/

snippets:

_When the supply of workers goes up, the price that firms have to pay to hire workers goes down...
Both low- and high-skilled natives are affected by the influx of immigrants. But because a disproportionate percentage of immigrants have few skills, it is low-skilled American workers, including many blacks and Hispanics, who have suffered most from this wage dip. The monetary loss is sizable...

But that’s only one side of the story. Somebody’s lower wage is always somebody else’s higher profit. In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer...
Instead, it has changed how the pie is split, with the losers—the workers who compete with immigrants, many of those being low-skilled Americans—sending a roughly $500 billion check annually to the winners. Those winners are primarily their employers. And the immigrants themselves come out ahead, too. Put bluntly, immigration turns out to be just another income redistribution program...  _ [growing wealth gap]

_A policy that keeps them in mind might tax the agricultural and service companies that benefit so much from low-skilled immigrants, and use the money to compensate low-skilled Americans for their losses and to help them transition to new jobs and occupations...
The employers that profit from the way things are won’t go along with these transfers without an epic political struggle. And many of the libertarians who obsessively advocate for open borders will surely balk at such a huge expansion of government._


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## Alligatorob (Jul 20, 2022)

David777 said:


> But that’s only one side of the story. Somebody’s lower wage is always somebody else’s higher profit. In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer...
> Instead, it has changed how the pie is split, with the losers—the workers who compete with immigrants, many of those being low-skilled Americans—sending a roughly $500 billion check annually to the winners. Those winners are primarily their employers. And the immigrants themselves come out ahead, too. Put bluntly, immigration turns out to be just another income redistribution program..


This is a bit one sided.  It is true that lower labor cost can mean higher profits, however it often also means lower cost to the consumer.  Both consumers and employers benefit.  And we are those consumers...


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## SeniorBen (Jul 20, 2022)

On one hand, there's a labor shortage, so we should welcome immigrants to fill those jobs. On the other hand, there's a housing shortage, and immigrants are compounding the problem. On still another hand or maybe on a foot, while there is a labor shortage, it's a skilled labor shortage. We need programmers and other technically savvy individuals to fill those jobs. We also need construction workers — jobs which immigrants from hot countries such as Mexico are well suited.


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## Just Jeff (Jul 20, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> On one hand, there's a labor shortage, so we should welcome immigrants to fill those jobs.


No.
Think on this - if you had a small business and needed helpers/workers,  would you want someone you could not trust ?


----------



## Creek Pirate (Jul 20, 2022)

We send money to 90 plus countries to support people in the world. You know we have laws that were meant to protect our citizens. They are setup to make sure that if someone comes here they are not going to do harm. Also as a society we can only take in so many at a time or we over whelm our communities ability to absorb the new people.  People from160 countries are at border, they want in. A lot of countries have release inmates to our borders that they didn't want. The Cartels are pushing drugs and making money on trafficking people across our border. There are a lot of people that have filed for legal immigration that the illegals are taking there spot in line. You have to notice how well physically a lot of them are, nike footwear and cell phones they are carrying as there asking for asylum. The amount of other countries they passed up to get here. Understand also most supported the Governments they are running from. Our Government is at this time not doing the job they swore to do. Fentanyl is made in China sold to the Cartel and brought into this control to kill Americans and does more damage then COVID, yet doesn't get the same attention. Yes it is nothing less than an invasion at the border, just without guns but just as lethal. Latin American Gang member have come here through the open border to establish footing in our cities. Our Government tries to control us using COVID while they pack illegals on buses and planes and ship them all over the country without any kind of shots for anything. These illegal people are then the communities problem as they are left where there dropped off. Sorry but I can feel for them but I want the wall and the border closed. 2 million is way above we can afford to let in when we are having all kinds of issues of our own. Vets and homeless and now we get more to join the line. 17 million children we are told go to sleep hungry in this country. Inflation is at 9.1% and supply chains are not functioning. Baby formula that is much needed is in short supply. And there is so much more. This not political, this is the way it is.


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## Creek Pirate (Jul 20, 2022)

Knight said:


> Would a quota system work to establish a limit?  What about the children that are sent with no adult? What would a reasonable amount be considering the unemployment now & expected in the future?


WE have quota's, they have been over ran. If the Government can fly them into the country, then they also can also fly them home. If we start turning them away and start returning them home they will drastically reduce in coming. Our problem is that people choose to stay home and not work. That's what needs to change.


----------



## Creek Pirate (Jul 20, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes it should rain cheeseburgers then we would have enough cheeseburgers for everyone.  Everyone who wants to live a very long life should.  My mother is 95 she would love forever if she could.  Of course there should be borders, and immigration laws, but the laws should be reasonable.
> 
> And while we have been busy kicking people out other countries have been busy letting them in.  My daughter quit doing foster care when her 12 year old foster daughter who had been raised in the US since she was an infant was deported to an orphanage in Mexico.  The girl could not speak spanish.  What future do you think she had there?


If your daughter was willing to take the child as her own I don't see why they needed to send her back across the border and she should have stayed. But I do not believe we owe the world a living to the extent that it destroys or diminishes ours. We already send money to 90 plus countries for this very thing. We also give asylum to real people in need. A lot are at the our border just for the American dream and have passed up other countries. Your very unfair with saying we have been kicking people out. We have immigrated people for years from all over the world. We just don't want to be invaded and over ran. We would also would like to know who they are.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jul 20, 2022)

Autumn said:


> Sadly, some of these people come from conditions so appalling that the threat of catching a virus doesn't figure too highly.


Remember in the news they showed that georg soris, or some such world rich guy,  PAID the travelers every day, provided every day food and clothes and water and such,  and said he would,  BEFORE they left their homes.   
The agenda is not people seeking help,  but being paid to show up....

The thread of catching a virus thing was never more than three percent,  and the threat of problem with it was ten times less or lower.  That is until government intervened with totalitarian measures.


----------



## Just Jeff (Jul 20, 2022)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes it should rain cheeseburgers then we would have enough cheeseburgers for everyone.


"We",  the usa,  not only had enough to feed the whole world for decades, 

but "we",  the usa people and government and companies and corporations,  threw it away .    Every year for years.


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## Brookswood (Jul 20, 2022)

I have yet to meet a person who came to this country legally, put in the effort to become a citizen, who thinks that the people sneaking across the boarder are some special case and have special right.  These naturalized citizens are under the impression that our political leaders are supposed to work for us - the citizens who hired them at the voting box.

Well known liberal spokesperson Bill Maher has this to say:


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## JaniceM (Jul 21, 2022)

Creek Pirate said:


> They are setup to make sure that if someone comes here they are not going to do harm.


(I knew I couldn't force myself to stay out of this thread..  was actually trying to find an older post by another member to link to but couldn't locate it)

When individuals gripe about immigrants and immigration, it's only one specific group-  our "brown-skinned neighbors from the south."  Of everything I've seen, read, heard, AND personally experienced, THEY aren't the ones causing problems in this country- past or present.  Individuals who come to the U.S. and commit crimes-against-persons, run drugs, etc., should be dealt with, but it's a small minority.  

In one area where I lived, this 'group' was the majority, by far.  No problems.  In another, I was the only individual who _wasn't _either an immigrant or first-generation.  No problems.  In contrast, it's been "others" that come to this country and treat Americans like we're not even people, refuse to leave their prejudices at the door, and try to shove their 'cultures' down everybody else's throats.  The subject bugs me in general, but even more so as I'm trying to cope with a couple of these idiots who don't seem to realize this is OUR country.


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## Shalimar (Jul 21, 2022)

*Bill Mayer is not a favourite of many Canadians due to his history of Islamophobic statements, and his recent slamming of Prime Minister Trudeau as a dictator. *


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## SeniorBen (Jul 21, 2022)

Brookswood said:


> I have yet to meet a person who came to this country legally, put in the effort to become a citizen, who thinks that the people sneaking across the boarder are some special case and have special right.  These naturalized citizens are under the impression that our political leaders are supposed to work for us - the citizens who hired them at the voting box.
> 
> Well known liberal spokesperson Bill Maher has this to say:


I think Bill Maher is more of a libertarian than a liberal.


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## JaniceM (Jul 21, 2022)

SeniorBen said:


> I think Bill Maher is more of a libertarian than a liberal.


One of those people who doesn't think anybody should receive any help?


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## Knight (Jul 21, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> In one area where I lived, this 'group' was the majority, by far.  No problems.  In another, I was the only individual who _wasn't _either an immigrant or first-generation.  No problems.  In contrast, it's been "others" that come to this country and treat Americans like we're not even people, refuse to leave their prejudices at the door, and try to shove their 'cultures' down everybody else's throats.  The subject bugs me in general, but even more so as I'm trying to cope with a couple of these idiots who don't seem to realize this is OUR country.


Can you be a little more specific about who the "others" are that 

Quote
"come to this country and treat Americans like we're not even people, refuse to leave their prejudices at the door, and try to shove their 'cultures' down everybody else's throats."


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## dseag2 (Jul 21, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> (I knew I couldn't force myself to stay out of this thread..  was actually trying to find an older post by another member to link to but couldn't locate it)
> 
> When individuals gripe about immigrants and immigration, it's only one specific group-  our "brown-skinned neighbors from the south."  Of everything I've seen, read, heard, AND personally experienced, THEY aren't the ones causing problems in this country- past or present.  Individuals who come to the U.S. and commit crimes-against-persons, run drugs, etc., should be dealt with, but it's a small minority.
> 
> In one area where I lived, this 'group' was the majority, by far.  No problems.  In another, I was the only individual who _wasn't _either an immigrant or first-generation.  No problems.  In contrast, it's been "others" that come to this country and treat Americans like we're not even people, refuse to leave their prejudices at the door, and try to shove their 'cultures' down everybody else's throats.  The subject bugs me in general, but even more so as I'm trying to cope with a couple of these idiots who don't seem to realize this is OUR country.


Well said.  And has it been the immigrants to this country who have been involved in the latest mass shootings?  I think not.  It has been the mentally deranged, bullied white kids who have been at the root of this.

Also, what no one has mentioned is that the birth rate among white people in the US has been declining.  And the white kids who are here don't want to do the menial jobs that immigrants are willing to do.  Do they want to work at McDonald's?  Do they want to do construction?  No, they want to make it big by being influencers on Tik-Tok or Youtube.  Heck, if it wasn't for immigrants my mother, when she was in assisted living, would have had no one to take care of her. 

This fear of "others" because they don't look like us is ridiculous.  Our country will be more brown than white by 2045.  I'm an old white guy, and I think old white guys who think we can hold onto the US of the 60's is just ridiculous.


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## Blessed (Jul 21, 2022)

I've tried to leave alone too! I have no problem with the fact that other countries want to come here, that they want to be part of the American dream, that they want their families to live a better life and their children to get an education.  

I don't know anything about the law, I don't know how hard it is to apply and be accepted.  I know that it must be hard to live somewhere, maybe in a shack, no water or electricity, watching your children cry because they are hungry.  I know I would do what I had to do better for my family.  Would'nt you?


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## rgp (Jul 22, 2022)

Blessed said:


> I've tried to leave alone too! I have no problem with the fact that other countries want to come here, that they want to be part of the American dream, that they want their families to live a better life and their children to get an education.
> 
> I don't know anything about the law, I don't know how hard it is to apply and be accepted.  I know that it must be hard to live somewhere, maybe in a shack, no water or electricity, watching your children cry because they are hungry.  I know I would do what I had to do better for my family.  Would'nt you?




  "I've tried to leave alone too! I have no problem with the fact that other countries want to come here, that they want to be part of the American dream, that they want their families to live a better life and their children to get an education."

  But IMO there's the 'Rub' ..........

"They" do not want to be a part of the "American Dream" ..... They want to come here , continue to speak _*their*_ language , and _*expect us to learn *_it .

They continue to fly their flag, etc .... They do not want to become American ..... they just want to take what America offer's . And IMO we offer way too much !


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## Knight (Jul 22, 2022)

Maybe lost in this is the thread is about entering illegally.  Seems the word illegal is dropped.

For this to continue 

marke numero dos por continuar en inglés


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## Sunny (Jul 22, 2022)

As I've said many times here, Bill Maher is a long-time favorite of mine. I nearly always agree with his point of view. But I don't like this "Be MY lawyer stuff."  If everybody followed that philosophy, we would all be pitted against each other, regarding every ethnic group other than our own the "enemy."  

I am fortunate enough to have been born in this country. That doesn't mean I shouldn't give a damn about people desperate for work and freedom who want to live here, just as my ancestors did. Sometimes there are more important things than crossing all the t's, stamping all the documents with the proper rubber stamp, and counting the precise number of people who should be allowed in.

Also, if you read any of the history of every other group that migrated here in the past (except probably the Native Americans), they were all hated, insulted, painted with the same brush of lies about how awful they were, how stupid, ignorant, dirty, smelly, illiterate, and so on. And guess what?  It took one generation for them all to turn into Americans.


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