# Vegan/Vegetarian/Juicing...anybody out there who practices any of these?



## GeorgiaXplant

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, but I do avoid meat and processed food as much as I can, and juice daily. About two months ago DS sent me a link to a video "Forks Over Knives" and it reinforced things that I already knew and is the reason I added juicing to my mostly plant-based diet. I get organic fruit/veggies when the price isn't so high that it feels like making a mortgage payment, but I think about the stuff I've eaten in the past 73+ years and figure produce that isn't organic is not likely to do me in at this late date.

This year's physical is scheduled for September18. I'll be interested to see if any signs of aging have been halted, whether my cholesterol has dropped and if my BP is better. For the record, I've been on cholesterol and BP meds for the past four years that apparently are doing a reasonable job. After about six months of taking of them, cholesterol and BP both kind of just settled and haven't changed by more than a point up or down so if there's any dramatic change, I'll attribute it to juicing and seriously limiting meat.

Is there anybody else who's shunning the anything-with-a-face and prepared/processed foods that seem to have taken oven the grocery store shelves?


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## Falcon

Just an aside:  The word VEGAN  was coined by our Native Americans.

In THEIR language,  VEGAN  means  "BAD HUNTER".


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## SeaBreeze

I'm not a vegetarian, but I do eat less red meat than I used to.  We may go for weeks sometimes without eating meat, there's lots of other dishes that are very tasty and satisfying.  But, having said that, we do enjoy a good rib-eye steak or rack of ribs on the charcoal BBQ.  My blood pressure and other tests are always good when I get them, rarely visit doctors though.  I don't juice, but I drink only healthy juices with no sugar added and not from concentrate.  In the mornings I add some Chlorella and Turmeric to a bit of orange juice, for health benefits.


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## GeorgiaXplant

That would explain why vegans don't eat meat...


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## Debby

I've been a vegan for seven years and before that a vegetarian for about 15.  A couple of months ago, my doctor did the annual bloodwork and his comment was, he wished his numbers were as good as mine and my weight is the same as it was when I was 20.  

As for why vegans don't eat meat or wear animal products, well it just comes down to empathy for the animals and what they go through when they just want to 'live' as much as we do.


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## Falcon

I agree with you Debby, but think about the other animals who eat other animals.


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## Debby

Falcon said:


> I agree with you Debby, but think about the other animals who eat other animals.




I'm not sure I understand your point Falcon.


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## Falcon

Debby said:


> I'm not sure I understand your point Falcon.



Debby, In the animal world, it's a matter of "Dog eat Dog.
 When a cheetah drags down a sweet little baby antelope,  do you think there's any empathy there ?

 They don't care if it's animal or vegetable; to them it's FOOD!  And they don't care if it's wearing real fur or fake fur.

 By the same token, when I sit down to a nice juicy rib eye steak, I try not to think of the slaughter house.


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## Debby

Falcon said:


> Debby, In the animal world, it's a matter of "Dog eat Dog.
> When a cheetah drags down a sweet little baby antelope,  do you think there's any empathy there ?
> 
> They don't care if it's animal or vegetable; to them it's FOOD!  And they don't care if it's wearing real fur or fake fur.
> 
> By the same token, when I sit down to a nice juicy rib eye steak, I try not to think of the slaughter house.



Animals, like us, are hardwired to eat right?  It's a requirement that we have no control over.  No difference there.  The difference is that in this day and age, we have the understand and the options to make adjustments that still keep us healthy but respect their need for life.  They don't.  So I don't think you can compare the morals of animals who are in the grip of need and instinct alone, to us who also have need (and instinct sort of) AND options and knowledge.

I find it interesting that you should mention that you try not to think of the slaughterhouse.  It reminds me that when my husband used to still eat meat, he would draw the line at veal.  I think that is an indication that on some deep spiritual level, we can feel uncomfortable about our role in ending a life.  Some of us respond to that discomfort and some don't.  My husband now draws the line at fish.


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## taffboy

Been a veggie all my life just don't like the texture of meat.Juicing tryed it love it But find it won't keep long so have to drink what you make straight away.


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## GeorgiaXplant

No, it doesn't keep more than a couple of hours at most. What I do is make the juice and pop it in the fridge while I clean up and wash the juicer.


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## taffboy

I do miss it loved some of the stuff we done.Away from that just come on the forum tonight and its changed took me a while thought I was on the wrong forum at first..


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## JustBonee

I do enjoy my juicer ... when I remember to use it!  .. 
I'll go for a couple  weeks and have my morning 'green drink' ...then  I get lazy and slack off.


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## GeorgiaXplant

Bonnie! Juicing just "sometimes" is better than not at all, but daily is best. C'mon, woman, how hard is it to pop some fruits and veggies in there and turn it on So the cleanup can be a nuisance, but once you develop a system, it can go pretty quickly. I've finally got it down to a science...calculating how much of what I need to make a 12-oz glass and the best/fastest way to clean up.


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## JustBonee

GeorgiaXplant said:


> Bonnie! Juicing just "sometimes" is better than not at all, but daily is best. C'mon, woman, how hard is it to pop some fruits and veggies in there and turn it on So the cleanup can be a nuisance, but once you develop a system, it can go pretty quickly. I've finally got it down to a science...calculating how much of what I need to make a 12-oz glass and the best/fastest way to clean up.




LOL ... right you are Georgia!  .. I need to fix my errant ways.  Thanks for the reminder.


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## GeorgiaXplant

Right you are, Bonnie. Just get back on that horse and in no time, you'll look and feel 20/30 years younger. I mean, really, it worked for Jack LaLanne. Oh. Wait. He died. Hm.


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## Happyflowerlady

I am not a vegetarian, but I do eat a whole lot less meat than I used to do, and a lot more vegetables, greens, and fruit. I think that juicing is a great idea, but i just make my juices in the Ninja Blender instead of using the juicer. I get all of the pulp that way, so I feel like I am actually getting real food, and not just juice. 
I eat more fish and seafood, which I have always liked anyway, and less beef, very little pork, and I do enjoy chicken. 
I think I watched the Knives/forks movie, and I have also watched the Fat, Sick, and Almost Dead documentary, which I think is pretty impressive, as well. 
Now, I have kind of a little guideline that  I use, which is "if God made it, I can eat it; if man made it, then leave it alone."  
I am not 100% on this, and still enjoy a hot cinnamon roll occasionally; but my thought is that it is not the exception, but the rule, that counts. Eating one or two cinnamon rolls in a year, is a whole lot different than having a rich dessert every day.


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## oldman

I am and have always been a bit of a health nut, so to speak. Exercising and running are my favorite past time things to do, but no marathons or working with weights. I ran two marathons and it took me several days to recover, or I should say, for my body to recover. I was told about a month ago by my PCP that I have some unknown anemia going on and to eat some lean red meat at least once per week. I told him I loved liver and onions, so that won't be a problem. So, then he tells me to avoid organ meat. I can't win. I have always eaten salads and plenty of fruit. We have a juicer, but don't use it much. I feel really good, but this anemia thing has me concerned. 

As a side note, my PCP tells me that taking pills won't help. I need to absorb the iron and proteins from the food that I eat. My red cell count and hemoglobin is low. Not real low, but low none the less. The doc has also cut back my running from five days per week to two days per week.


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## ClassicRockr

We are "health nuts"........love lobster, shrimp, prime rib, pork ribs, burgers, FF, baked potato, fried potato, meat loaf, mashed potato, Mexican food, pizza, water, milk (as in Kahlua and milk), Bud Light and a good margarita. 

Oh, I'm sorry, that's not being a "health nut", but to us, it's *VERY* healthy! LOL


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## GeorgiaXplant

My dad was like that CR. He ate whatever he pleased, including two eggs over medium, two sausage patties and biscuits and gravy for breakfast every day. When he died of mesothelioma, his cholesterol was 140 and his BP was 115/75 . If I look at an egg, mine goes up by five points! If I look at a salt shaker, my BP skyrockets to 150/90. Sigh.


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## Kitties

I have 2 meat eating cats. And yes, of coarse they do eat meat including sharing a small can daily. My cats have no choice in the matter. And I had nothing to do with making them as they are. I have heard of people stating they would not have a pet that had to consume other animals to live. And I certainly respect that. But as a single person, I'd be at a loss without cats and I can think of no other animal that could help me in life as my cats do.

Debby, I've been vegan almost 9 years. Greatly struggling with staying so since I don't fit in with the usual vegan aesthetic since I'm overweight. I've been shunned at vegan events and can't bring myself to attend anything again. It's been over 3 years. Like all of society, some vegans are not nice people. And with the way my psyche works, I always just remember the bad.


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## rt3

Its the fat in the animal's meat that is the problem not the meat, red meat is one of a few sources iron readily absorbed. The fat places a heavy burden on the pancreas, which, if it is being challenged by any disease state, alcohol, or things in processed foods stops the pancreas from being unable to carry the load and starts a chain reaction of events. Vegans don't have all the answers either, but the main thread is avoiding processed foods, fortified with white sugar, high fructose corn syrup, monosodium glutamate, aspartame etc. Monsanto the chemical company will do everything they can to stop you from getting a source of whole foods. Butter, eggs are not the culprit, its the foods the chickens and cows are fed. Grains, (instead of worms, and corn instead of grass fed. Concerned groups and producers of foods have stopped using genetic modified orgin, look for this on the package. Excess glutin which is put in foods as a thickner and material bulker, as well as high fructose corn syrup. Other companies that make enormous profits such as ConAgra, Dupont have more lobbing power in politics than all of us combined. Juicing is a good step towards avoiding cancer. Cancer medicine as it is done today is big business.


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## Debby

Kitties said:


> I have 2 meat eating cats. And yes, of coarse they do eat meat including sharing a small can daily. My cats have no choice in the matter. And I had nothing to do with making them as they are. I have heard of people stating they would not have a pet that had to consume other animals to live. And I certainly respect that. But as a single person, I'd be at a loss without cats and I can think of no other animal that could help me in life as my cats do.
> 
> Debby, I've been vegan almost 9 years. Greatly struggling with staying so since I don't fit in with the usual vegan aesthetic since I'm overweight. I've been shunned at vegan events and can't bring myself to attend anything again. It's been over 3 years. Like all of society, some vegans are not nice people. And with the way my psyche works, I always just remember the bad.




Hi Kittie,  I'm so sorry that you've run into people who aren't nice.  There are so many reasons that people gain weight or can't loose weight that have nothing to do with quantities or types of food eaten.  I've even heard about the BP inside food cans that causes a change in the DNA of fetus's so that when they get to a certain age like five or six years, they begin putting on weight.  Sort of a very negative evolution in the human race.  And certain pesticides and herbicides are causing those same sorts of changes.  The researchers call these goodies 'obesogens'.

I've got two dogs and a cat who also need to eat meat.  The dogs I got before I became a vegan and the cat adopted us last winter.  So yeah, while it bothers me to be dealing with meat, they require it (at least the cat does for sure) but hey, the universe dropped them into my life for a reason so what can I do right?

Have you always struggled against weight issues or is this something that has come on suddenly if you don't mind my asking?  The only reason I ask is because before I choose the vegan lifestyle, I had to watch my weight constantly.  Having a slow thyroid and a naturally slow metabolism made it tough, but the vegan diet really helped.  Then last year, I got into fruit smoothies big time and suddenly noticed that my weight was again creeping up.  And right about the same time, I read a book called Wheat Belly and based on that, cut almost all wheat products out and voila, the weight issue seemed to stabilize remarkably.  I find that as I age, I have to tweak my diet from time to time so maybe you need to do some 
'tweaking'.  

Anyway, forget the lousy folks!  That's baggage that you can do without very nicely don't you think?  It was nice chatting with you and I hope you're having a great day!


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## Debby

rt3 said:


> Its the fat in the animal's meat that is the problem not the meat, red meat is one of a few sources iron readily absorbed. The fat places a heavy burden on the pancreas, which, if it is being challenged by any disease state, alcohol, or things in processed foods stops the pancreas from being unable to carry the load and starts a chain reaction of events. Vegans don't have all the answers either, but the main thread is avoiding processed foods, fortified with white sugar, high fructose corn syrup, monosodium glutamate, aspartame etc. Monsanto the chemical company will do everything they can to stop you from getting a source of whole foods. Butter, eggs are not the culprit, its the foods the chickens and cows are fed. Grains, (instead of worms, and corn instead of grass fed. Concerned groups and producers of foods have stopped using genetic modified orgin, look for this on the package. Excess glutin which is put in foods as a thickner and material bulker, as well as high fructose corn syrup. Other companies that make enormous profits such as ConAgra, Dupont have more lobbing power in politics than all of us combined. Juicing is a good step towards avoiding cancer. Cancer medicine as it is done today is big business.



People who decide to adopt a veg'n diet generally are doing so as an ethics issue although there are some who do because they think it's healthier.

And there are a number of studies that do show better health outcomes for people on a plant based diet in the areas of heart disease, obesity, diabetes and even some forms of cancer.  

- Mayo Clinic:  Vegetarian Diet and diabetes
 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/diabetes/AN00845


- Journal of the American College of Nutrition:  Vegan Diets and Cardiovascular Health
 http://www.jacn.org/content/17/5/407.full


University of Oxford:  Veg diet reduces heart disease risk by up to 1/3
 http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2013/	130130.html


Pub Med:  Vegan proteins may reduce risk of cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10687887


I'm not sure if all those links are still active, it's been a while since I looked at them.  But if they aren't, I'm pretty sure it would be immensely easy to find other info.  Isn't the Internet wonderful!  I love it.

And by the way, I agree with you entirely that 'cancer medicine' is big business.  Look up the story of Rick Simpson of Nova Scotia and his use of 'pot' to cure cancer of friends and neighbours and see how the Canadian Cancer Society treated his notes when he went to them with his personal experiences and involvement.  They weren't even interested enough to look at what he had to say despite the support of the so-called terminal cancer patients that he 'cured'.


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## Debby

GeorgiaXplant said:


> My dad was like that CR. He ate whatever he pleased, including two eggs over medium, two sausage patties and biscuits and gravy for breakfast every day. When he died of mesothelioma, his cholesterol was 140 and his BP was 115/75 . If I look at an egg, mine goes up by five points! If I look at a salt shaker, my BP skyrockets to 150/90. Sigh.




Your mention of the salt shaker reminded me of my friend who is dying from a failed liver.  She is not even a drinker, she's only 56 and her liver is gone.  One of the things she had to do when they discovered this was quit using salt altogether.  When she has even the tiniest amount, it turns into ammonia which stops her brain from functioning and she lapses into a coma of sorts until they can get the ammonia out of her system.  Ever since her diagnoses, I've been trying to cut back on my salt intake too but it's hard isn't it because nothing tastes as good without it!


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## Debby

oldman said:


> I am and have always been a bit of a health nut, so to speak. Exercising and running are my favorite past time things to do, but no marathons or working with weights. I ran two marathons and it took me several days to recover, or I should say, for my body to recover. I was told about a month ago by my PCP that I have some unknown anemia going on and to eat some lean red meat at least once per week. I told him I loved liver and onions, so that won't be a problem. So, then he tells me to avoid organ meat. I can't win. I have always eaten salads and plenty of fruit. We have a juicer, but don't use it much. I feel really good, but this anemia thing has me concerned.
> 
> As a side note, my PCP tells me that taking pills won't help. I need to absorb the iron and proteins from the food that I eat. My red cell count and hemoglobin is low. Not real low, but low none the less. The doc has also cut back my running from five days per week to two days per week.




Are you making sure that you eat something with vitamin C at the same time you eat your iron source?  Because that's supposed to be really important for proper absorption.


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## rt3

Vit c helps with Fe absorption, but the critical one is Vit A, and that is the acetate, not the many derivatives. The Acetate is hard to find and you must watch for it. Carnivores have longer intestinal tracts than other animals, to say nothing about parallax vision etc. Cats especially. Have nothing against the Vegan stance. Red Blood cell and hemoglobin count will not give you reliable information on your iron levels, they only work for clinical differentiation of anemia. Your PCP is wrong, keep eating the liver it is the best source for us carnivores to obtain Fe. Better sources than most of iron, are the chelated varieties, stay away from the sulfates, gluconates, and other salts. 
Salt cannot turn into ammonia. Ammonia has nitrogen and hydrogen in it, Salt is sodium and chloride, it is more than likely that she was deprived a source of iodine that shut down her thyroid production, resulting to increased protein metabolism that resulted in increased creatine clearance, (renal stress) and ammonia as by products.


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## Kitties

Hello, Debby, yes weight has been an issue since childhood. My mother had severe emotional problems and was prone to absolute rages. I know that I comforted myself with food from a young age. It's been a life long issue for me. Even to this day, it's how I'll comfort myself. No longer being able to attend the vegan events I've been to in the past is not helping.

Working as an RN, I can outwork and do more than a lot of people I've known. But at 54, I know I'd feel better if I lose weight. My job is very stressful, I directly work with a very negative person. So dealing with this individual for 8 hours doesn't help when I can only come home to the cats. But thank goodness for them. It's hard not to eat when I get home form work.


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## Debby

I'm sure sorry to hear that things aren't going well at times for you but thank goodness for loving cats, eh?  I've got a black cat that adopted us last Christmas.  He'd been lurking around our little rural property for most of the summer but we could never get close to him.  Then one day in mid-December, we realized that he was hiding under our porch for protection.  With a snow storm coming, we rigged up a wood box on the porch and put hay to snuggle in and a big bowl of food.  He settled in immediately, but then a few days later we realized that he wasn't eating the food anymore or coming out of the box (no tracks in the snow).  So I summoned the courage and stuck my hand into the darkness, found his shoulders and dragged him out.  He was so thin and just limp.  But he was purring even though he didn't know me and til that moment had always been too terrified to get close!

Anyway, I whisked him off to the vet and when we got home, he took up residence in our garage (too snowy and frozen out for a sick cat).  Now he's gone from 5.5 lbs to about 12.5 (gives you an idea how starved he was) and he lives in our home and he is the most affectionate cat I've ever known personally.  Just wonderful.  So I hope your pussy cats are as friendly and loving as our Ziggy is, because they sure can make life so much better!

I know what you mean about comfort eating.  I think we all have times when we just can't help it. And working with cranky people can always feel like a good reason to give in to those urges.  I sure feel for you and hope that eventually things start 'working' for you Kitties.


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## Debby

rt3 said:


> Vit c helps with Fe absorption, but the critical one is Vit A, and that is the acetate, not the many derivatives. The Acetate is hard to find and you must watch for it. Carnivores have longer intestinal tracts than other animals, to say nothing about parallax vision etc. Cats especially. Have nothing against the Vegan stance. Red Blood cell and hemoglobin count will not give you reliable information on your iron levels, they only work for clinical differentiation of anemia. Your PCP is wrong, keep eating the liver it is the best source for us carnivores to obtain Fe. Better sources than most of iron, are the chelated varieties, stay away from the sulfates, gluconates, and other salts.
> Salt cannot turn into ammonia. Ammonia has nitrogen and hydrogen in it, Salt is sodium and chloride, it is more than likely that she was deprived a source of iodine that shut down her thyroid production, resulting to increased protein metabolism that resulted in increased creatine clearance, (renal stress) and ammonia as by products.




While I'd never heard of the necessity of Vit A for Iron absorption, it sounds interesting and like something I should look up so thanks for that.

As for animals digestive tract, I think it's actually more accurate that carnivores digestive tracts are shorter and smoother so their meat goes through them faster.  Their digestive acids are also stronger which helps prevent sickness from eating slightly off meat.  Those bacterias are killed off more significantly and the shorter intestine means the bugs that don't get killed are out before they can begin to cause illness.  Cats are 'obligate' carnivores which means there are certain enzymes that they cannot live without and which are found only in meat, a dog can live on the right balance of nutrients from a plant based diet.

My doctor never told me anything about liver so I don't understand what you're suggesting.  I'm a vegan.  Why in God's name would I eat liver?  Besides, the last time I had my bloodworm done in April, my iron levels were perfect so I guess I'm doing something right wouldn't you say?

Well my friend is not a doctor, so when she said the salt 'turns into ammonia' which then pickles her brain, she may have misunderstood the process that her doctor explained, but whatever the case, she can't eat salt and it's basically destroyed her her brain function as a result.  When her husband was there tonight, she didn't recognize him any more.


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## Debby

rt3 said:


> Vit c helps with Fe absorption, but the critical one is Vit A, and that is the acetate, not the many derivatives. The Acetate is hard to find and you must watch for it. Carnivores have longer intestinal tracts than other animals, to say nothing about parallax vision etc. Cats especially. Have nothing against the Vegan stance. Red Blood cell and hemoglobin count will not give you reliable information on your iron levels, they only work for clinical differentiation of anemia. Your PCP is wrong, keep eating the liver it is the best source for us carnivores to obtain Fe. Better sources than most of iron, are the chelated varieties, stay away from the sulfates, gluconates, and other salts.
> Salt cannot turn into ammonia. Ammonia has nitrogen and hydrogen in it, Salt is sodium and chloride, it is more than likely that she was deprived a source of iodine that shut down her thyroid production, resulting to increased protein metabolism that resulted in increased creatine clearance, (renal stress) and ammonia as by products.




Could you give me a link to your points about Vitamin A being necessary for iron absorption?  When I did a search (Is Vitamin A necessary for iron absorption) I couldn't find any mention of it, only Vitamin C.


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## rt3

google vitamin a acetate and iron absorption,,,  careful though, sometimes they use beta carotene, and FeSO4 as the sources from the study which can give fluctuations.


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## Debby

rt3 said:


> google vitamin a acetate and iron absorption,,,  careful though, sometimes they use beta carotene, and FeSO4 as the sources from the study which can give fluctuations.




Thanks for that and looked it up.  Very interesting read.  Our bodies are the most amazing balance of chemicals and impulses and energies aren't they!  And in looking for sources of Vitamin A, I found that I was pretty much covered.  Hope you're having a good day.


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## Kitties

Debby, that's a really nice story about saving your kitty! He was very lucky to have found you. My two came from a Craig's list add so they have always been around people. The woman had kids but it was obvious the kittens had been treated well and I'm grateful for that.


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