# Philosophy of "Lying"



## imp (Jul 28, 2015)

I was brought up by my stay at home Mom, raising also my little nephew, born when I was 5. She stressed honesty above all else. Could always tell if I was not being honest, somehow.

Years later, reading a book on "Effective Management", a whole chapter was dedicated to the situations where a Manager should lie to subordinates. I was sickened by the author's reasoning.

What do you think about lying? How were _you _brought up?    imp


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## Glinda (Jul 28, 2015)

We were taught not to lie, but in retrospect, it was a case of "Do as I say, not as I do" with regard to my father.


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## Josiah (Jul 28, 2015)

Life is complicated and doesn't lend itself to simple hard and fast rules.


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## Warrigal (Jul 28, 2015)

My mum was like your mom. Honesty was and still is a core value in our family line. 

The maxim "better to say nothing than to tell a lie" was also strongly held to, and not just in my family either. At school, when being questioned by a teacher about something, if he asked "Did you do this?" we would answer truthfully Yes or No. If the next question was "Do you know who did do it?" The answer was still a truthful Yes or No. Then if pressed to name the culprit, the answer was "I'd rather not say, Sir". This would inevitably lead to some sort of punishment but we held the respect of the teacher and  the rest of the class.

Without honesty and truthfulness there can be no honour or self respect IMO. This is a particularly British value (but not solely so) and I remember finding it shocking that not every culture is as forthright and blunt.


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## imp (Jul 28, 2015)

Josiah said:


> Life is complicated and doesn't lend itself to simple hard and fast rules.



How true! We can easily come up with numerous reasons where, given unusual circumstances, lying might be the preferred route. However, I have almost always countered such examples successfully by demanding honesty rather than dishonesty.    imp


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## Butterfly (Jul 28, 2015)

imp said:


> How true! We can easily come up with numerous reasons where, given unusual circumstances, lying might be the preferred route. However, I have almost always countered such examples successfully by demanding honesty rather than dishonesty.    imp



How 'bout when your SO says "do these jeans make me look fat?"


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## Warrigal (Jul 28, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> How 'bout when your SO says "do these jeans make me look fat?"



Better to say nothing than to tell a lie. It results in a lot less trouble in the long run.


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## Susie (Jul 28, 2015)

Gosh, you're a righteous lot!
So honest and everything!
Where's the fun in trying to unravel your spouse's web of lies?
Where's the fun in picking apart the sales pitch of an overly aggressive, lying, sales person?
See, what fun you're missing!!!       :magnify:


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## Warrigal (Jul 28, 2015)

Can't help it Susie. It's how I was brung up.

I cannot bring myself to add my signature to a lie. I once worked with a teacher whose daughter asked her to write a note to get out of a PE lesson. She told her mum that all the girls were doing it and all she needed was a note from her mother.

The mother wrote the following note:

_Dear Miss ...

Please excuse my daughter from PE today because she doesn't want to do it.

Signed ..._​Her daughter was not amused but she did learn a lesson about her mother's attitude to lies and deception.


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## merlin (Jul 28, 2015)

I go with Josiah really, its complicated, and while I was brought up to be honest and truthful, I find at times I avoid the truth especially when it would simply hurt the other person and do no good. Its not always possible to say nothing. 

Close relationships are a real testing ground for honesty, and where most of us tend to fail. The universe is not a black and white place I feel so I reside in the grey area of truth at times.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 28, 2015)

My truth can be your lie, and vice versa. 

The world is not black and white, so how could we be? There are no absolutes. 

There - I'm done with my words of wisdom for the day.

... or am I?


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

merlin said:


> I go with Josiah really, its complicated, and while I was brought up to be honest and truthful, I find at times I avoid the truth especially when it would simply hurt the other person and do no good. Its not always possible to say nothing.
> 
> Close relationships are a real testing ground for honesty, and where most of us tend to fail. The universe is not a black and white place I feel so I reside in the grey area of truth at times.



I agree in part. For example, it is not always possible for national leaders to be fully frank and honest, especially when national security is at stake or when lives are at risk. When the press pack continues to hound them demanding an answer to a question that should not be answered, it is acceptable for them to deflect the question with minimal subterfuge. It is not acceptable to me when they knowingly misrepresent facts for political advantage. For that I mark them down.


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## merlin (Jul 29, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> My truth can be your lie, and vice versa.
> 
> The world is not black and white, so how could we be? There are no absolutes.
> 
> ...



Hopefully not Phil, wisdom is in short supply in our world at the moment, at least in my area of grey it is


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## merlin (Jul 29, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I agree in part. For example, it is not always possible for national leaders to be fully frank and honest, especially when national security is at stake or when lives are at risk. When the press pack continues to hound them demanding an answer to a question that should not be answered, it is acceptable for them to deflect the question with minimal subterfuge. It is not acceptable to me when they knowingly misrepresent facts for political advantage. For that I mark them down.



I think politics and world leadership is the area where truth is virtually non existent in my opinion, after all its all about power and control, where truth is usually if not always a weakness.


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## Linda (Jul 29, 2015)

merlin said:


> I go with Josiah really, its complicated, and while I was brought up to be honest and truthful, I find at times I avoid the truth especially when it would simply hurt the other person and do no good. Its not always possible to say nothing.
> 
> Close relationships are a real testing ground for honesty, and where most of us tend to fail. The universe is not a black and white place I feel so I reside in the grey area of truth at times.



I agree with Merlin on this one.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

merlin said:


> I think politics and world leadership is the area where truth is virtually non existent in my opinion, after all its all about power and control, where truth is usually if not always a weakness.



And is this acceptable?


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 29, 2015)

As the King sung it, "you know that I would never lie to you, no, not much..."nthego:


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## merlin (Jul 29, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> And is this acceptable?


It is or it isn't depending on your viewpoint, to me no, to the politicians and their cronies yes it is acceptable.


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## oldman (Jul 29, 2015)

"Honesty is the best policy." That way, you never have to remember how or what you said to someone else. OTOH, a little white lie now and then to protect someone's feelings, IMO, is OK. If someone, not a close friend, asked me if I had a good time at their party (and I didn't), I wouldn't tell them that I was bored out of my mind, or that I had a terrible time. What good would that accomplish? It's just as easy to say, "Thanks. I enjoyed seeing everyone and the food was very good." Sometimes, it's good to be gracious.


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## Susie (Jul 29, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> My mum was like your mom. Honesty was and still is a core value in our family line.
> 
> The maxim "better to say nothing than to tell a lie" was also strongly held to, and not just in my family either. At school, when being questioned by a teacher about something, if he asked "Did you do this?" we would answer truthfully Yes or No. If the next question was "Do you know who did do it?" The answer was still a truthful Yes or No. Then if pressed to name the culprit, the answer was "I'd rather not say, Sir". This would inevitably lead to some sort of punishment but we held the respect of the teacher and  the rest of the class.
> 
> Without honesty and truthfulness there can be no honour or self respect IMO. This is a particularly British value (but not solely so) and I remember finding it shocking that not every culture is as forthright and blunt.


My question: What would any of you do if you were to uncover a whole set of harmful, dangerous lies (maybe by the media, politicians, power brokers, or others)?
Being very honest, would you blurt your discovery out to the whole world, or would you carefully consider possible consequences and keep quiet?


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## QuickSilver (Jul 29, 2015)

I find nothing wrong with a little white lie to spare someone's feelings..   I find people that are so brutally "honest" all the time to seem to get some sort of satisfaction out of bursting someone' bubble and making them feel embarrassed or upset.   The "You know me.... you will ALWAYS get the truth"  people seem to be almost gleeful out of their brutality.    There is no harm in telling someone that their hair looks good... when it doesn't... or that their home décor is "lovely" when it looks like a Polish fleamarket... to spare their feelings.    What the heck does it matter..   Brutally "honest" at all costs people are in reality brutally "cruel" people.     On the other hand.. if someone would be helped by my honesty and I can save them from embarrassment or hurt.. I would gently find a way to tell them.. but honest for honesty's sake is not always the best way to treat people.


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## hollydolly (Jul 29, 2015)

I am generally a very honest person, ...I'm not someone who can spin lies or be underhand about anything. Yes little white harmless lies like saying how wonderfully helpful someone has been when actually they weren't very good but I could see they tried  but actually weren't great...etc 

However am I the only one who feels absolutely betrayed if someone tells me an outright lie?...I actually feel as though I have been physically struck. It doesn't have to be HUGE, but to invent something that I may have said or done or to be told someone has said it.. to tell me just a whole invented story about anything at all , is like a physical pain in my heart ... perhaps I'm just far too sensitive!!


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

Susie said:


> My question: What would any of you do if you were to uncover a whole set of harmful, dangerous lies (maybe by the media, politicians, power brokers, or others)?
> Being very honest, would you blurt your discovery out to the whole world, or would you carefully consider possible consequences and keep quiet?



Consequences to whom? Myself or the people benefiting from the lies? Is the question asking would I (or anyone else) consider becoming a whistle blower?

If I considered it in the public interest to blow the whistle I think I might try to do it through official channels - police, other authority figures etc but I would seek legal advice before doing so. I would document what I found out and keep at least one copy in a secure place, just in case. I wouldn't rush to the media because I don't trust them one little bit.


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## Josiah (Jul 29, 2015)

Whatever happened to the old crossing your fingers behind your back thing, that always worked for me.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

Just don't stand with your back to a large mirror. :lofl:


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## Sunny (Jul 29, 2015)

But then, how about questions like:  "Does this make me look fat?"


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Merlin, you have my vote also. Truth is a double edged sword.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 29, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> ... or that their home décor is "lovely" when it looks like a Polish fleamarket...



As a person of partial Polish heritage I am upset and distressed by your comment.


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## hollydolly (Jul 29, 2015)

Sunny said:


> But then, how about questions like:  "Does this make me look fat?"



I have to say if someone asks me that question and honestly I do get asked it a lot...does this suit me, does this make me look fat /skinny,/old/ etc..I always tell the truth but in a nice way. I would hate to look ''fat'' in something and have someone tell me I look fabulous.. so I wouldn't do it to anyone else...unless they were my mortal enemy and then the whole ball game changes..:whome::rofl1:


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## Kitties (Jul 29, 2015)

Management is their own weird breed. They also take courses on how to get the last word and put people down. One of them I could never be. I'm a flunky  for life.

As far as lying goes, I used to be honest to a fault. I had to learn to lie to protect myself. I never understood that concept. Hypothetical example: if someone stated are you alone, I would have said yes. I didn't know to lie and state I'm waiting for someone to show up.

Years ago my mother and I went to a mall. The parking lot was packed. We got in our car and were sitting there. (we may have been having something to eat) I hadn't noticed someone waiting for our spot. Two women honked and were very nasty yelling "MOVE!" I got out of the car and stated we were not moving we were waiting for my dad and husband. That got them to leave without a word. And it wasn't true. It was just my mom and I.


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

QS - Now let me be honest, your negative stereotyping comment about  'Polish fleamarket' was very rude and offensive to people of all  heritages, not just those with Slavic roots.  Please apologize and don't do that again!


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

What is wrong with second hand? I have purchased many lovely items at garage sales and flea markets, Polish or otherwise. Not everyone has the wherewithal to buy designer clothes/ furniture  at Nordstrom's  et al. Tasteful does not always equal expensive.


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## hollydolly (Jul 29, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What is wrong with second hand? I have purchased many lovely items at garage sales and flea markets, Polish or otherwise. Not everyone has the wherewithal to buy designer clothes/ furniture  at Nordstrom's  et al. Tasteful does not always equal expensive.



absolutely agree Shali..


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

It is not about anything being second hand at all -- the comment was outright bigoted.  Substitute Scottish, English, German, Italian or any other ethnicity and see how that flies!


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Kitties said:


> Management is their own weird breed. They also take courses on how to get the last word and put people down. One of them I could never be. I'm a flunky  for life.
> 
> As far as lying goes, I used to be honest to a fault. I had to learn to lie to protect myself. I never understood that concept. Hypothetical example: if someone stated are you alone, I would have said yes. I didn't know to lie and state I'm waiting for someone to show up.
> 
> Years ago my mother and I went to a mall. The parking lot was packed. We got in our car and were sitting there. (we may have been having something to eat) I hadn't noticed someone waiting for our spot. Two women honked and were very nasty yelling "MOVE!" I got out of the car and stated we were not moving we were waiting for my dad and husband. That got them to leave without a word. And it wasn't true. It was just my mom and I.



It shows that there are lies, and there are lies! Evidently, the consequences of the lie are the important factor.   imp


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> What is wrong with second hand? I have purchased many lovely items at garage sales and flea markets, Polish or otherwise. Not everyone has the wherewithal to buy designer clothes/ furniture  at Nordstrom's  et al. Tasteful does not always equal expensive.



Or, as in my own case, everyday clothes are purchased at "2nd. hand" stores, (we have Goodwill & Salvation Army). But, not bought often, as I wear, wash, wear again, wash again, until the clothes (as my wife puts it) "rot off", then seek replacements. IOW, being duly presentable appearance-wise is not one of my "strong points". Clean, not stinky, but also no vain appearances.     imp


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> It is not about anything being second hand at all -- the comment was outright bigoted.  Substitute Scottish, English, German, Italian or any other ethnicity and see how that flies!



Cookie! You are right, of course! What you may not be familiar with, is that the lady is a Chicagoan. In Chicago, comment such as hers is not regarded as bigoted in that sense, as such usage is so commonplace, it is accepted normally as a joke. Prejudicial intent is only present if the wording contains profanity. 

I grew up there. Left over 40 years ago, but see things are not significantly changed. (Okay, so I'm a bit facetious, here).    imp


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

" ....................There is no harm in telling someone that their hair  looks good... when it doesn't... *or that their home décor is "lovely"  when it looks like a Polish fleamarket... to spare their feelings.*     What the heck does it matter..   Brutally "honest".................... 				"

I should have included Quicksilver's quote as shown above to clarify...... I find this sentence completely unacceptable and deeply offensive as it is *bigoted negative ethnic stereotyping* and does not belong on this forum.  I have no problem making a fuss about this either and am surprised that more people have not noticed this and also find this sort of thing is unacceptable.  Replace the word Polish with English or American or German and surely more people might also complain.


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## hollydolly (Jul 29, 2015)

I have to agree with you cookie, you have a very valid point!! It really would be unacceptable on this forum if it was replaced with American or English..etc..


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Thus, we should all discard the ethnic differences which were so important a part of the "melting pot" concept in America (and Canada)?

Personally, when faced with very real and dire consequence in my everyday life, ethnic slurring and such slide into the basement quickly.    imp


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks holly, for your support.  I think we can all agree that ethnic slurs don't belong on a friendly forum like this one.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 29, 2015)

imp said:


> Thus, we should all discard the ethnic differences which were so important a part of the "melting pot" concept in America (and Canada)?
> 
> Personally, when faced with very real and dire consequence in my everyday life, ethnic slurring and such slide into the basement quickly.    imp



I originally made the comment as a half-truth / half lie (I _am_ part Polish but I was _not_ offended - in fact, I was _amused_, as my picture hopefully showed).

The REASON I made the comment was fairly self-serving - I wanted to illustrate how easily mention of certain racial groups can be tossed off without a complaint, yet others invoke a hair-trigger hailstorm. 

Just trying to keep the Truth from becoming a Lie.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 29, 2015)

I 'love' the people who lie and say things like "I HAD to " or "There was nothing else I could do but lie" or "I wouldn't have gotten it if I had not of lied". No these people voluntarily chose to lie. Same for the everyone else is or was doing it crowd. Don't these people ever being remember being told if your best friends jumped off a cliff would you do it because they did it?

This is common in many work places let alone courts and fraud for money or benefits. I expect lying from family and friends for small stuff but not lying from employees paid to do a job along with being honest. Doing the job does not include fudging, falsifying,altering or manipulating administrative procedure to give the appearance of doing the job.


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Cookie, you are right, I should have addressed the bigotry as well as what seemed to me a possible slur at second hand purchases. I apologise.


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Imp, one of the differences between America and Canada, is our disparate approach around ethnic differences. Whereas America takes a melting pot approach, Canada prefers multiculturalism, wherein people are encouraged to maintain their ethnic heritage. As we see it, in our diversity lies our strength.


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## Josiah (Jul 29, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I originally made the comment as a half-truth / half lie (I _am_ part Polish but I was _not_ offended - in fact, I was _amused_, as my picture hopefully showed).
> 
> The REASON I made the comment was fairly self-serving - I wanted to illustrate how easily mention of certain racial groups can be tossed off without a complaint, yet others invoke a hair-trigger hailstorm.
> 
> Just trying to keep the Truth from becoming a Lie.



Well stated Phil, I agree.


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Imp, one of the differences between America and Canada, is our disparate approach around ethnic differences. Whereas America takes a melting pot approach, Canada prefers multiculturalism, *wherein people are encouraged to maintain their ethnic heritage*. As we see it, in our diversity lies our strength.



Wait, now. Does not "encouraging maintaining of ethnic heritage" involve specifically calling attention to it, whether happily, derogatorily, or in any other reference? If we maintain that a "Polish flea-market" is something other than just that, we are masking the ethnicity of the Poles, glossing them in with all others, thus making ethnicity disappear, no?

Since QS is not checking in, I will go so far as to _guarantee _that one could readily find, and attend, a flea-market set up in Chicago, heralded by a huge banner proclaiming, "Polish Flea-market"! See, the Poles have their own neighborhood community, around what was once called "Pilsen Park", the Italians run Taylor Street, the Lithuanians Winchester Ave., and so on. No one there is adversely affected by mention of their ethnicity.    imp


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Oh please Ladies.  My Gawd does everything have to be so damn serious?  Polish jokes are the root of much comedy but they hardly warrant this much condemnation.


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## Susie (Jul 29, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Consequences to whom? Myself or the people benefiting from the lies? Is the question asking would I (or anyone else) consider becoming a whistle blower?
> 
> If I considered it in the public interest to blow the whistle I think I might try to do it through official channels - police, other authority figures etc but I would seek legal advice before doing so. I would document what I found out and keep at least one copy in a secure place, just in case. I wouldn't rush to the media because I don't trust them one little bit.


Thank you for your thoughtful reply, D.W., especially the part about seeking "legal advice" before reporting to official channels.
Gratifying to read that you 'trust' the police and other authority figures, but not the media!


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## Josiah (Jul 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Oh please Ladies.  My Gawd does everything have to be so damn serious?  Polish jokes are the root of much comedy but they hardly warrant this much condemnation.



I'm appalled at all this fuss over an offhand mention of an ethnic allusion. What's strange is that all the men commenting on this thread had no problem with it at all??


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## SifuPhil (Jul 29, 2015)

Josiah said:


> I'm appalled at all this fuss over an offhand mention of an ethnic allusion. What's strange is that all the men commenting on this thread had no problem with it at all??



I'm the one who originally brought it up, Josiah. I just don't like that it's OK to denigrate one race and not another. My particular brand of humor makes fun of everyone but I've been shot down here in the past because of it, so now I guess I'm just playing a little catch-up ball.

It's been one of those days, ya' know?


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

Lookit, then:

1. an ethnic group; a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like: Representatives of several ethnicities were present.

2. ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association: The graph shows class enrollment by gender and ethnicity.

We are incorrectly using the term "ethnicity", simply because it was called out in reference to mention of someone's _Nationality. _Nationality is actually the issue, not specifically, ethnicity, since ethnicity might relate to more than one Nationality. 

It seems evident, to me, anyway, that being offended by use of reference to Nationality exists only as a _perceived offense, _relative to the offended. Let's say, knowing of my Czech Nationality, someone "slurred" me as an "ignorant Bohemian". I SHOULD be offended by that usage, right?    I am not.    imp


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## SifuPhil (Jul 29, 2015)

You're dancing around the main issue I think, Imp.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 29, 2015)

Well, I'm part German, there have been plenty of Hitler and Nazi comments on here, I guess I should get in a big huff......


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Well, it's silly.  No one here that I know of has any problem with anyone strictly due to ethnicity.  QS Made a comment anyone could have made with impunity most of the time, it was not meant to invoke this kind of outcry, nor, in my mind, should it.  Let's not get carried away with our PC. Did I ever show you this joke making fun of Arizonan's?

  Q: Why do Arizona State grads keep their diplomas on their dashboards? A: So they can park in handicap spaces.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 29, 2015)

Now Jim, lets don't talk 'state ethnics'...lol...due to my location, I could really get hacked off.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Now Jim, lets don't talk 'state ethnics'...lol...due to my location, I could really get hacked off.



  Q: Why couldn't the baby Jesus be born in Texas? A: Because they couldn't find 3 wise men or a virgin.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Q: Why couldn't the baby Jesus be born in Texas? A: Because they couldn't find 3 wise men or a virgin.



LOL....oh me.


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Some people are not aware that ethnic negative stereotyping (ethnic slurs/racial slurs) or negative stereotyping of any kind, is considered very hurtful and harmful. It is not acceptable in the workplace here (we can get fired for it). Perhaps its the upbringing or WHERE you were brought up and by whom?  In Canada we respect our ethnic origins and diversity. I can't believe there are so many who don't seem to understand this. 

Some examples of negative stereotyping:  stupid blonde jokes, jokes about gays (gay bashing), Polish jokes (or insert another ethnic group), fat people jokes, short people jokes, old people jokes, jokes about ugly people, handicapp_ed people jokes, etc. etc. etc.  It's simply prejudice.  And please don't try to lay a guilt trip on anyone by minimalizing this subject. Can we try to be open minded and kind.  


_


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Well, I'm part German, there have been plenty of Hitler and Nazi comments on here, I guess I should get in a big huff......



Hitler and Nazi comments are not about Germans, they are specifically about Hitler and Nazis, do you identify with being a Nazi or Hitler or do you identify with being German? I have never seen one here insult Germans for their ethnicity. That is a big difference.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> LOL....oh me.



Awwww Jackie, you're my kind of Texan.  I am reminded of a California realtor who expected a group of 50 Texas Real Estate investors to arrive by plane and look at property.  When he got to the airport he found only one scheduled landing an it was a small piper cub.  He said to the airport people that it couldn't be his plane as he was expecting 50 people.  They told him it was his plane and it did have the 50 Texans but before they left they had the bullsh*t kicked out of them.


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## Jackie22 (Jul 29, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Awwww Jackie, you're my kind of Texan.  I am reminded of a California realtor who expected a group of 50 Texas Real Estate investors to arrive by plane and look at property.  When he got to the airport he found only one scheduled landing an it was a small piper cub.  He said to the airport people that it couldn't be his plane as he was expecting 50 people.  They told him it was his plane and it did have the 50 Texans but before they left they had the bullsh*t kicked out of them.



.....completely deflated, huh?  I know it gets really deep around here.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> .....completely deflated, huh?  I know it gets really deep around here.



My f avorite Grandma was a Texan (RIP), I have 5 1st cousins in Texas.  I hate to admit it but they are .......choke....gag.....republicans.


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## Shirley (Jul 29, 2015)

Must make for some interesting family reunions.


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Jim, (and any others who are still not understanding)  I suppose you know it's totally OK to make jokes about one's own state/country/religion/group, but not OK or outsiders to do so, in the same way we make jokes about our family but if someone outside of our family insults it, that is very not OK. Black people make jokes and use language about their race, but it is considered a big no no for white people to do this. Same goes for other groups. Get it?


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Shirley said:


> Must make for some interesting family reunions.



Laughing....Shirley, my friend you are funny as can be.  My Granddad was a West Virginia coal miner when they came out to California when I was born (1st grandkid) and stayed.  He would stand and fight anyone who said a negative thing about a Democrat.  But, that was long ago.  We don't have reunions but if  we did, I would try to make 'em see the light.


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## AZ Jim (Jul 29, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Jim, (and any others who are still not understanding)  I suppose you know it's totally OK to make jokes about one's own state/country/religion/group, but not OK or outsiders to do so, in the same way we make jokes about our family but if someone outside of our family insults it, that is very not OK. Black people make jokes and use language about their race, but it is considered a big no no for white people to do this. Same goes for other groups. Get it?



I got it long before your explanation but I fail to see the need to put a member in the village stocks over something of that nature.  I understand where you come from but refuse to follow Cookie....*hoping she still considers me her friend*


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Cookie, we often have a difference of opinion with our American neighbours as to what constitutes free speech. Things deemed prejudicial/hate speech/illegal in Canada are permitted in USA. I stand with you and Holly on this one, and I don't appreciate the dismissive remarks directed toward our point of view. This is a multicultural forum after all. Obviously a more sensitive approach is needed.


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks, Shali, that must be it for sure, the definition of free speech as interpreted in our country as opposed to down south.  A multicultural forum should be sensitive to all groups here, I agree.  

Jim, ha ha ha --- village stocks, so funny, I can just picture it.  Does that mean you wouldn't mind if I made a mockery of you and your country, I can you know, but I won't, because that would be too mean and I wouldn't want to be mean to a 'friend'.


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

When I heard kids at school telling ethnic jokes, mostly about the Irish, I would tell them one of my own.

It goes like  this -

Do you know the three shortest books in the world?

_#1 The book of Italian war heros _ - laughter, even though they had no idea of Italians at war but they were happy to laugh at Italians and since it was a catholic school, there was a significant Italian ethnic minority present.

_#2 Five hundred years of German humour_ - a puzzled look because that did not understand this one at all

and finally

_#3 The Australian book of style, etiquette and good taste_. This always brought a howl of protest. This is when I suggested that if you can't take it, you shouldn't dish it out.

For what it's worth I wouldn't have used the expression 'Polish flea market' because I've never heard the expression before but I might have said like a 'pakapoo ticket'. It simply implies  cluttered and messy looking. It doesn't say anything about the Chinese per se.


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Cookie, perhaps in the interest of free speech, we should  adjourn to the political threads to introduce socialism Canadian style, I wonder how quickly our "freedom" would be shut down? I have already been accused once of bashing America, (when I first joined), for daring to critique. I suspect it could very easily happen again. Apparently, to some members, the definition of free speech carries a definite American flavour, n'est pas?


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Ha ha ha Shali --- I so agree.  I suppose I'm so very naive to believe other countries are nice like Canadians.  It has been drummed into us from an early age to be tolerant and accepting.  But in fact so many countries feel free to spout anything they want, do anything they want, take anything they want, kill anyone they want, etc. etc.  Perhaps instead of complaining about it, it's time to put on a protective vest and get our ammo ready.  

DW - So so true -- if you can't take it, don't dish it out. I'm ashamed to say there were a couple of your examples I found very funny)  ut you never know who might be offended.  Some of these jokes might best be shared behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home, or like yourself, with little chums in the schoolyard.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 29, 2015)

And now that I've finished pitting friend against friend and country against country, my work here is done. :yoda:


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

I hear you, Cookie, courtesy, tolerance, and gentleness are choices, not indicative of weakness or compliance. Tolerant we may be, but we fiercely protect the values that define who we are as Canadians. I can feel an attack of patriotism coming on, can't you, eh?


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

:lol: I'm tempted to google "ethnic jokes Canadian".


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

LOL DW, me too, I'm sure there's plenty of content there! 

Yes, Shali, I'm having a patriotic spasm right now!  Call the mounties!

Phil, ha ha ..... it's been a blast!


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## Shalimar (Jul 29, 2015)

Well, group therapy or what? Lolololol.


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## Cookie (Jul 29, 2015)

Here it is - professional help on the way!


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## imp (Jul 29, 2015)

My OP was "lying". The progression has wound it's way convoluted as a stretchy-crawly caterpillar, to where I am now satisfied that virtually all have been provoked to their limit!   imp


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## Warrigal (Jul 29, 2015)

Ain't that the truth, imp?


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## Linda (Jul 29, 2015)

I would like to go on record as saying Quicksilver's Polish Flea market remark didn't offend me in the lest and that is not a lie.   I am not easily offended.  I remember several years ago someone jumped on my husband for referring to our children as "kids".  He said "They are CHILDREN not baby goats"  It's hard to talk in a group of people without offending someone.


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