# A London Cop Cleared After Leaving 40 Injuries On A Mom While KICKING Her Out Of A Hospital



## WhatInThe (Jan 23, 2015)

A London(UK) cop was cleared after leaving 40 injuries on a mom while at times literally 'kicking' her out of a hospital in which she was tending to/with her seven year old daughter.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...en-luke-cleared-kicking-mother-child-hospital

I guess an arrest, citation or call assistance doesn't exist in the UK? Or the socialized medical staff doesn't give a hoot.

A man 'kicks' a women out of a hospital, how noble.......


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## Warrigal (Jan 23, 2015)

Unbelievable. Literally.
How could he not be charged given the number of witnesses unrelated to the mother?
Something is fishy here.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 23, 2015)

I agree with Warri - something isn't right. You don't use such an escalation of force on someone unless they're _really_ fighting back, and even then a "boot to the head" is a potentially lethal blow to deliver.


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## Sid (Jan 23, 2015)

What is a "distraction strike", Master?


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## SifuPhil (Jan 23, 2015)

Sid said:


> What is a "distraction strike", Master?



Essentially it's what it sounds like - it's a strike that is not meant to be a knock-out blow, but is meant only to confuse/disorient your opponent. Such strikes generally are low-powered, like a light slap to the face or a feint to the torso.

I can't say for sure, but what the officer described sounded a lot like a roundhouse or a crescent kick, neither of which are designed to be used in any but full-power mode.


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## Sid (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks, that's kinda what I thought.


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## Laurie (Jan 24, 2015)

"Twelve good men (_sic_) and true".

You haven't heard all the evidence.  They have.

In the UK nurses are more likely to suffer violence at work than policemen (that is a verifiable fact using Health& Safety Executive figures) and police are regularly (like several times a day) called to eject troublemakers from hospitals, one of the penalties of social medicine.

I'm not saying the story isn't true, though the Guardian is a left wing rag with no love for the police, but I don't recall seeing the story carried elsewhere.


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## Lady (Jan 24, 2015)

From the report given in the newspaper i hope he gets sacked,
i was only reading last night about a case in UK  two Armed Police officers were sent out to a Deer that had been hit by a car ,they were armed with guns to put a shot init to kill ,instead they repeatedly hit it with a crow bar.These two have been taken off the gun section and disciplined properly .


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## SifuPhil (Jan 24, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "Twelve good men (_sic_) and true".
> 
> You haven't heard all the evidence.  They have.



None of whom have probably ever been in a similar situation themselves, nor were they present at the time of the alleged attack. A "jury of peers" is laughable - no one has the same life experiences. Who are _they_ to judge? They are too easily swayed by a silver-tongued barrister or solicitor. 

What about the eyewitnesses, especially the fellow officers? Were they allowed to testify? 



> In the UK nurses are more likely to suffer violence at work than policemen (that is a verifiable fact using Health& Safety Executive figures) and police are regularly (like several times a day) called to eject troublemakers from hospitals, one of the penalties of social medicine.



That's a somewhat disingenuous statistic, as one could also say that the _general public_ suffers more violence than the police as well, nurses being only a sub-set of that population.


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## Laurie (Jan 24, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> is a somewhat disingenuous statistic, as one could also say that the _general public_ suffers more violence than the police as well, nurses being only a sub-set of that population.



But I didn't say that nurses suffered more violence, but that they were more likely to suffer violence, a different thing altogether.

Let us say a nurse on duty has a one in five chance of suffering violence on duty, but a policeman only has a one in ten chance (figures not actual, just examples).

Then the nurse is twice as likely to suffer violence than the copper.

That;s not disingenuous, that's mathematics!


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## oakapple (Jan 24, 2015)

Haven't seen this story anywhere , so as far as I know, the woman in question could have been shrieking and abusing staff at the hospital/drunk etc. and had to be forcibly dragged away. This does NOT excuse any punching or kicking done by the policeman, and if true, was a blatant use [overuse] of violence. The thing is, you need to have all the facts. Sadly, there are some policemen both here and in all other countries who are only too eager to be violent if they can get away with it.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 24, 2015)

Laurie said:


> But I didn't say that nurses suffered more violence, but that they were more likely to suffer violence, a different thing altogether.
> 
> Let us say a nurse on duty has a one in five chance of suffering violence on duty, but a policeman only has a one in ten chance (figures not actual, just examples).
> 
> ...



Ah, yes, mathematics - the "pure" science that can be _so_ easily corrupted! 

"Likely"? "Likely" isn't any part of math that I know of that would qualify to be used by such an august body as H&SE. 

Apart even from the mathematics of this - let's take an over-all view of both professions. Which has the greater risk factor - changing IV's and bedpans for 8 hours, or going on two dozen calls in that same time frame, none of which you can know in advance will involve deadly force? 

Where are you more likely to encounter someone who wants to blow you away - in an antiseptic patient's room or in a dark alley? 

Who is more likely to get involved in a gunfight as a daily part of their duty? (Well, okay, Great Britain looks at guns as I look at root canal work ... still ...) 

Whose job description involves bringing to justice bad guys? Whose is more on the order of "rotate patient #34 at 10:30AM"? 

I'm sorry, but I cannot see nurses being _more_ likely to encounter violence than a policeman - it just doesn't make sense.


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## Laurie (Jan 25, 2015)

"I'm sorry, but I cannot see nurses being _more likely to encounter violence than a policeman - it just doesn't make sense."

_I agree, but I'm afraid it's true.

When I was a safety officer I regularly used to quote figures from the Employment Medical Service', a directory of the Health & Safety Executive,.

These were real "reported injury" figures, not estimates or projections (As you would expect construction and agriculture were the worst, but who would expect female hairdressers to be in the top half dozen!)

Unless you've experienced the A&E department of a British inner city hospital on a Saturday night you have no idea what a war zone it is.

There are areas of UK cities where ambulances will not respond without police escort.


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## BobF (Jan 25, 2015)

When I was young and in the military I was assigned to the military police unit.   One evening we got a call to take a very excited person to the hospital.    When we got there it took two of us to help hold him down so the staff, doctors and nurses, could check him out and eventually inject some quieting drugs into him.   Never heard what his problem was.   But I do remember just how dangerous a hospital can be for the staff.   I expect that public hospitals also have plenty of drugged, alcoholics, mental problems of all types, shocked and in pain, just about anytime of the day or week.   At least the police know they are going into questionable situations while the hospitals never know when their surprise or what it is will come to them.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 25, 2015)

BobF said:


> When I was young and in the military I was assigned to the military police unit.   One evening we got a call to take a very excited person to the hospital.    When we got there it took two of us to help hold him down so the staff, doctors and nurses, could check him out and eventually inject some quieting drugs into him.   Never heard what his problem was.   But I do remember just how dangerous a hospital can be for the staff.   I expect that public hospitals also have plenty of drugged, alcoholics, mental problems of all types, shocked and in pain, just about anytime of the day or week.   At least the police know they are going into questionable situations while the hospitals never know when their surprise or what it is will come to them.



You held him down or restrained him with two people unlike the London(UK) copper who just beat the crap out of someone to get them out of the building. Is this all the London cops got for unruly individuals-beat downs. To top it off in a prolonged struggle there is more that can happen so why cop didn't call for assistance from fellow officers or additional officers weren't available for any contingency bewilders me. Sounds like a lack of professionalism, training, supervision and/or planning.


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## BobF (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes we helped to hold him down.   Several nurses and interns were also busy trying to get this person to be contained so the doctors could do their jobs.   In your London problem, where were the hospital staff while all this was going on.   Did everyone on the staff just sit by and watch all this evil happen?    I think there is a lot happening that is not in the story or the responses either.   One alternative might be the policeman was trying to control things and also save himself from unnecessary injuries.   I don't  know and doubt if any one of us knows either.

I posted from my experience and said nothing for or against the policeman.    I was only trying to support what one poster said about dangers in hospitals.    If people in London are like far too many in the US, the police have no authority and you can just ignore them and their wants.   Fight with the police when just answering a few questions would do.   Recently shown on TV was a woman jay walker the police tried to stop that then went against the policeman.   It all ended up in a physical struggle and more police showed up and helped to restrain this woman.

Why do we have this hate the police action going on these days.    Cooperate politely and things will go easily.   Resist and things will not go so easily.


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## oakapple (Jan 25, 2015)

You [and everyone else] cannot judge when you don't know the full facts. So many people say 'they read it in the paper' ie. it must be true. Cops here [and everywhere including the US] sometimes do bad things, but WE cannot judge cases, that is what judges, courtrooms etc are for.So much nowadays is speculation.


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## oakapple (Jan 25, 2015)

The above post was for WhatInThe.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 25, 2015)

Laurie said:


> "I'm sorry, but I cannot see nurses being _more likely to encounter violence than a policeman - it just doesn't make sense."
> 
> _I agree, but I'm afraid it's true.
> 
> ...




That's quite insane. 

*Forbes* magazine did a piece in 2013 on the 10 deadliest occupations in the U.S. in 2012, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers:

_*The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

*_

  1. Logging workers
 2. Fishers and related fishing workers
 3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
 4. Roofers
 5. Structural iron and steel workers
 6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
 7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
 8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
 9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
 10. Construction laborers

Neither police _nor_ hospital workers showed up on the list!


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## BobF (Jan 25, 2015)

Maybe not the deadliest but I am sure both police and hospital staffs get plenty of grief from those that have no idea what they are doing or those that just hate police for no reason at all.


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## Laurie (Jan 25, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> That's quite insane.
> 
> *Forbes* magazine did a piece in 2013 on the 10 deadliest occupations in the U.S. in 2012, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers:
> 
> ...



Not quite the same, but is shows the difference between your culture and ours.  I would be interesting to know what Forbes based its figures on.

I wasn't talking so much about deadly events, but work related illness and injury, hence the presence in our list of ladies hairdressers.

Fishermen and workers feature in our top ten,  and lorry drivers who are prone to back trouble and haemorrhoids , but not many of the others.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 25, 2015)

Laurie said:


> Not quite the same, but is shows the difference between your culture and ours.  I would be interesting to know what Forbes based its figures on.



I believe that BLS is the statistics-gathering branch of the government, and in this case they probably got their numbers from OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration). I used to be in the industrial safety field myself, and I think that's how they come up with their numbers. 

Non-fatal injuries - that would probably take a little longer to find.




> Fishermen and workers feature in our top ten,  and lorry drivers who are prone to back trouble and haemorrhoids , but not many of the others.



It seems that fishing is one of the world's most dangerous professions. I never would have thought that ...


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## rkunsaw (Jan 25, 2015)

Darn, I was planning to go *fishing* but first I have to *cut down a tree, *then I have to climb on the *roof* to fix a leak. Next I have to *drive* to town to drop off the *recyclables *and pick up some lumber for a *construction project. *Oh, I have to get the tiller ready so I can till the *garden *and hook up the *electric *fence.


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## Warrigal (Jan 25, 2015)

BobF said:


> When I was young and in the military I was assigned to the military police unit.   One evening we got a call to take a very excited person to the hospital.    When we got there it took two of us to help hold him down so the staff, doctors and nurses, could check him out and eventually inject some quieting drugs into him.   Never heard what his problem was.   But I do remember just how dangerous a hospital can be for the staff.   I expect that public hospitals also have plenty of drugged, alcoholics, mental problems of all types, shocked and in pain, just about anytime of the day or week.   At least the police know they are going into questionable situations while the hospitals never know when their surprise or what it is will come to them.



Our city hospitals on Fridays Saturdays and Sunday mornings were like a war zone with victims of street violence fuelled by alcohol and ice as well as the overdose cases. The staff were battling not only to treat people but had to defend themselves as they did so.

We now have stricter licencing laws - lockouts from 1.30am and last drinks at 3am - and the situation has already improved in the hospitals. To address the symptom you need to attack the cause. The doctors love it but the publicans are pushing for reversal of the policy after just one year. I hope they don't win.


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## Ameriscot (Jan 25, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> A London(UK) cop was cleared after leaving 40 injuries on a mom while at times literally 'kicking' her out of a hospital in which she was tending to/with her seven year old daughter.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...en-luke-cleared-kicking-mother-child-hospital
> 
> ...



No, he should not have gotten away with this despicable behaviour but you can hardly stereotype the entire police force and NHS based on this cops and hospital staffs behaviour..  If so, you could easily do so with all cops in the US.


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## Laurie (Jan 26, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I believe that BLS is the statistics-gathering branch of the government, and in this case they probably got their numbers from OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration). I used to be in the industrial safety field myself, and I think that's how they come up with their numbers.
> 
> Non-fatal injuries - that would probably take a little longer to find.
> 
> ...



I used to be a Health & Safety Officer too, a real one not one of these jumped up local environmental health people who would ban  stairs on the grounds that you can fall gown them!

I used to get these figures monthly, I also used to lunch with my local EMAS doctor to keep up with tends.

I used to work in a vocational college, 23,000 students, which taught most of the things mentioned, though not airline piloting, that's how I know about bizarre things like hairdressers, so it was important for me to keep up.

I liked to think, probably vainly, that by catching trends early I might make a real difference yo industrial safety when students graduated.

To go from teaching putative journalists about the H&S aspects of their job to plasma cutting in the welding workshop to rock climbing and food hygiene in one morning certainly kept the brain active!

I loved every minute of it!

*

Edit
*Just realized I may have confused the issue a bit with other posts about the military.  I did 40 years in weapons and explosives, but had to retire at 55.   Decided on a total career change and did Healt & Safety for ten years after that.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 26, 2015)

Excellent!

I lost faith in the system several times during my tenure as a H&S person. I saw bribes, I saw OSHA officials knowing less about safety than your typical line worker, and I personally experienced the joy of my boss - the owner of the company - command me to lie to OSHA and EPA.

I walked out of that job - and that profession - the same day.


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## Laurie (Jan 27, 2015)

I think our H&S Regs are somewhat stricter than yours, at least according to some exchange officers I met. 

Our laws were introduced in 1974 after a fairly strong report from a senior industrialist called Lord Robens.

Our Health & Safety Executive have powers the police can only dream of.

They can enter any premises at any time without a warrant, or having to show just cause, they can stop anyone entering or leaving the premises and search and detain anybody they see fit.  It is a criminal offence to impede them. They can seize any and all computers, hard drives, files, and any form of storage media without a court order.  That includes 10 Downing Street!

I have been the subject of such a visit (following an anonymous complaint from a disgruntled employee) and it does tend to concentrate the mind a bit!  Luckily I was given a clean bill of health – they are very thorough and very fair.

They can bring prosecution without reference to the Crown Prosecution Service (the equivalent to your DA’s office) and in fact normally do, and any convictions ate criminal, not civil offences.

For instance, in the case which started this thread, even after the acquittal they can prosecute the officer, his Chief Constable and the authority they work for “failing in their duty of care to those not in their employ who may be affected by their undertaking”!

If a company is involved judges are expected to impose fines not just based on the severity of the offence, but on the company’s turnover, the guidance being that the fine should have a noticeable effect on the company’s annual accounts, and should affect the shareholders’ dividend.

For instance, only last week a hotel chef and the manageress were sent to prison for 12 and eighteen months respectively for food safety offences, and the company, Mitchell & Butler, a fairly well know British company fined £1.5 million for allowing it to happen!


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## hollydolly (Jan 27, 2015)

That Chef and Manageress of the pub who were given the prison sentence should have got a much stiffer punishment. To be sent to prison for such a short time is completely at odds to the crime they committed...33 people with food poisoning so severe that one woman died...then they lied and forged books and documents to back up their lies...they should have been charged with manslaughter at the very least!!


Link for any one whose not read this story.. 
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/23/pub-chef-manager-jailed-christmas-dinner-diner-dead


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## SifuPhil (Jan 27, 2015)

Laurie, your H&S folk make our OSHA seem like a paper tiger.

In fact, I haven't noticed any significant actions on their part in quite a while now. Granted I'm out of the field and they're a bit out of my peripheral vision, but they NEVER had the kind of power your folks do.

Good for you.


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## Laurie (Jan 28, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> That Chef and Manageress of the pub who were given the prison sentence should have got a much stiffer punishment. To be sent to prison for such a short time is completely at odds to the crime they committed...33 people with food poisoning so severe that one woman died...then they lied and forged books and documents to back up their lies...they should have been charged with manslaughter at the very least!!
> 
> 
> Link for any one whose not read this story..
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/23/pub-chef-manager-jailed-christmas-dinner-diner-dead



Don't think that the CPS could have got manslaughter to stick.

For manslaughter you have to prove that a reasonable person should have seen that death might result.

If, as seems likely, they had done this before without harmful results (and that would have been their defence anyway) they probably would not have been convicted.

This was a good result, though perhaps not for the relatives, and will rightly send shivers through the catering trade.


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