# Childless Couples....Selfish?



## SeaBreeze (Aug 11, 2013)

Heard a big controversial discussion on the radio about the new Time magazine cover about couples who choose not to have children.  Some people thought it was selfish of them, and I think that's ridiculous.  

 Funny how people are whining about the earth becoming overpopulated, and how so many mothers are dumping their babies off with *their *mothers, or how there are so many unwanted fatherless children being brought into this world. 

 Watch *one *Maury Povich show (and that's all I could stomach), and you will see a woman with 6 kids from 6 different men.  When they have 4 of them on the show to DNA test them to see who will be 'stuck' with child support for her *last *baby...and they all prove negative...and that woman need to schedule another show to bring another bunch in to find the "baby daddy", I mean, come on! 

We are a childless couple.  When I was around 30, I felt my time was running out, and I started seeing the doctor about having a baby.  It turned out that I wasn't able to have one due to physical problems on my end.  Well, after a couple of tries at in-vitro fertilization, and lots of money out the window, I accepted my fate.  I didn't want to adopt, just wanted a baby with my husband.

Seems like folks nowadays complain regardless.  If you don't want a child, you're selfish...if you have too many you're overpopulating the earth...if you want to use birth control or have an abortion, you're a sinner......I say, if a couple can be happy together without having any babies, then the more power to them.  They should *not *be pushed into it through guilt coming from strangers to be sure!  What do you think?


----------



## Jillaroo (Aug 11, 2013)

_I agree with you SB, my eldest daughter went through  IVF three times and failed each time she finally became pregnant naturally but due to a problem with the baby had to have a termination which broke her heart, her doctor has advised her to not get pregnant again, and my youngest daughter well she is a very busy girl who works in advertising and doesn't have time for a baby and she is quite comfortable with that decision. 
             I think people need to keep their opinions to themself as it is up to the couple whether they have children or not, besides it's really none of their business , it's the same when a couple get married, the first thing they are asked is when are they having a baby WTF give them a chance to enjoy getting to know each other and also to be able to save enough money to be able to have a family, again it is none of their business it's entirely up to the couple, if they don't want children big deal get over it._


----------



## SeaBreeze (Aug 11, 2013)

Can't agree more Jillaroo, they always want to know when you're going to have a baby...then when you do, they roll their eyes because they don't want to hear any more about your child.  My heart goes out to your eldest daughter, I wish her the best. :love_heart:


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 11, 2013)

The one's who cry 'selfish' are usually those with no other skills except producing copious supplies of offspring and are trying to prove that it takes talent or something.  Not having them requires the talent. 



I never wanted children, didn't get on well with them even when I was one.  I was raised in a small house with 4 adults and no other children, so to me other kids all seemed pretty stupid.  Still don't understand what makes them tick.  For me to have had children would have been an unkindness to them. My maternal instincts are triggered more by puppies and  small helpless things other than human for some reason.

 It's genetic I think, I'm the last of the line, surname wise, on one side of the family, 2 of Dad's 3 sisters had none either, and the one who did have 2 didn't want them. She left the 4 year old on his own to feed and mind the 6 month old while she went into the city shopping on at least one occasion that we found out about, so she wasn't really 'mother' material by any stretch of tolerance.

 I'm an only child and Dad and I were never close, he never knew how to talk to kids either.  It's just not in us. Doesn't mean we dislike them particularly, I even feel deeply concerned for some of them, but seems we just didn't want any of our own.   I sure don't have any genes worth adding to the DNA pool.

We're all wired differently and it must be terribly sad for those who want them and can't.  But even sadder when those who don't want them have them and ignore, neglect or abuse them.  

People have no call to expect that everyone must think and do as they consider right to be 'normal'.  From my point of view those with 6 kids they can't support are the selfish ones.


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 11, 2013)

Jillaroo said:
			
		

> _I think people need to keep their opinions to themself as it is up to the couple whether they have children or not_


Wholeheartedly agree. I also think it is up to people how many children they have. It only becomes other people's business if the children are not being adequately cared for. Given the amount of government and family support that is available there is no excuse for children being neglected.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Aug 11, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> We're all wired differently and it must be terribly sad for those who want them and can't.  But even sadder when those who don't want them have them and ignore, neglect or abuse them.
> 
> People have no call to expect that everyone must think and do as they consider right to be 'normal'.  From my point of view those with 6 kids they can't support are the selfish ones.





Warrigal said:


> I also think it is up to people how many children they have. It only becomes other people's business if the children are not being adequately cared for. Given the amount of government and family support that is available there is no excuse for children being neglected.



I agree with you both! :iagree:


----------



## Murphy (Aug 11, 2013)

I agree too as a mere male and pity those couples having a child in an attempt to hold a marriage together. 

Personally I dont like children much and would make a poor father. At (other) family outings once I get past 'hello what your name and who do you belong to'? Its usually followed by 'I can hear your mother calling you' LOL


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 11, 2013)

> _'I can hear your mother calling you'_ LOL



That sparks a memory.  I was annoying Dad, one of many times, when he said "go and tell your Mother she wants you." 
I was at the back door before I realized what he was up to.  



I ignored it after that, it was kind of fun knowing he noticed me enough to be 'annoying' him. 

He gave up eventually and taught me a few drawing, and home repair and maintenance tricks, more to be rid of me perhaps,  but at last I learned something from him for my aggravating efforts.  

I forgave him when I realized that I was pretty much of the same opinion when it came to annoying kids asking questions.


----------



## Ozarkgal (Aug 12, 2013)

Didn't want them, don't need them, and now more than ever, glad I don't have them.  I love being free to do the things I want to do on a moments notice, without being responsible for someone else. If this is selfish, then I'm guilty.

I have several friends and relatives that are raising their grandchildren because their own kids are too selfish, addicted, uneducated, or whatever to raise the kids they so freely spawned, without a moment's thought as to how the babies would be taken care of.  Seems like lots of this happening these days.  

Tomorrow some friend from out of state are coming to visit.  They have 3 small grandkids of an addicted mother, they now have custody of, 4,6, and 8 years old. The mother has been addicted and in and out of jail for years, so why did she keep having kids she couldn't care for?

Our friend is 65 and his wife is not far behind.  They had planned to retire soon, but not going to happen now, they will both be working until they take a dirt nap, to raise and pay for these kids. 

It's a constant puzzlement to me as to why someone who cannot even take care of themselves, let alone a dog,  would want to bring kids into the equation, and foist them off onto someone else or the state to raise.


----------



## Anne (Aug 12, 2013)

Not selfish at all....I'd much rather see someone choose not to have children, than a scenario like Ozarkgal mentions; to have them with no forethought, and then go on their merry way and let someone else raise them - there *is *something very wrong with that.  It brings to mind Casey Anthony, who is the exception, not the rule, thank heavens....but she had no thought of who had her daughter, or what was happening with her, as long as she herself was free to party.   Most won't be so callous, but still too many think of themselves, and when you have children, you cannot act like it's only you, anymore. 

As for grandparents raising their grandchildren, I've met some, and wonder how they do it.  Most of us have health issues to deal with, and I can't imagine how one could deal with having full responsibilty for children, besides.


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 12, 2013)

> _Didn't want them, don't need them, and now more than ever, glad I don't have them._



Amen to that!


----------



## littleowl (Aug 12, 2013)

Visiting a friend in San Fransisco recently.
The subject came up on this show.
Do not worry about them he said.
They all end up with so much money from different charities they do not know what to do with it.
If you can swear, fight, cry, throw tantrums and give a good show you are in.
Plus they are coached as to how to enter on stage.


----------



## JustBonee (Aug 12, 2013)

Ultimate 'Selfish' to me is Octomom in California.  She had 6 little kids already, that she couldn't take care of, had no husband and got fertility treatments to have 8 more, all this while she was already on welfare.   Makes perfect sense. 
Probably thought this crazy stunt would put her on easy street .. but now the tax payers get to support them all.  

People can do what they want, having kids or not, but when it affects others that is pure selfish behavior.


----------



## Jillaroo (Aug 12, 2013)

_*OMG don't get me started on her*_


----------



## dbeyat45 (Aug 12, 2013)

No, not selfish.  Saving the planet by not producing more evil human beings.


----------



## GDAD (Aug 12, 2013)

Friends of my wife & I, we have known them for 40 years. Both professional people who decided not to have children. You could not meet a nicer couple.
He has had high profile jobs all his life as has his wife. They now have retired in England Live within a stones throw of Wimbledon.
They come out to Australia every second or third year, just to keep in touch with everyone we all grew up with.... Their life, their choices as it should be!!!


----------



## JustBonee (Aug 12, 2013)

From this week's Time Magazine ... 

[h=1]Having It All Without Having Children:[/h]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2148636,00.html?pcd=pw-magic


----------



## That Guy (Aug 12, 2013)

Being a parent has been one of the most beautiful and difficult undertakings of my life.  Children are wonderful.  Yet, most of the couples I know are childless and that's fine.  Discussions like these always make me wonder why someone who could not care less about me is so interested in how I live.  So with that I say . . . Live and let live and shut the hell up.  Have kids don't have kids.  Freedom of choice, baby...


----------



## That Guy (Aug 12, 2013)

Jillaroo said:


> _*OMG don't get me started on her*_


----------



## Ozarkgal (Aug 12, 2013)

That Guy said:


> Discussions like these always make me wonder why someone who could not care less about me is so interested in how I live. So with that I say . . . Live and let live and shut the hell up. Have kids don't have kids. Freedom of choice, baby...



Didn't notice any uncaring person on here singling you out and showing undue interest in your life, That Guy. I guess we have the "freedom of choice" to have a discussion without being told to shut the hell up, baby.nthego:


----------



## SeaBreeze (Aug 12, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> Didn't notice any uncaring person on here singling you out and showing undue interest in your life, That Guy. I guess we have the "freedom of choice" to have a discussion without being told to shut the hell up, baby.nthego:



I think That Guy was directing his comments at those who are writing these articles in the Time magazine, etc...not the people here discussing it.  I agree, live and let live...freedom to choose is theirs, and they should suffer no judgment for it.


----------



## That Guy (Aug 12, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think That Guy was directing his comments at those who are writing these articles in the Time magazine, etc...not the people here discussing it.  I agree, live and let live...freedom to choose is theirs, and they should suffer no judgment for it.



Thanks, SeaBreeze.  That's what I get for thinking it was just understood....   Guess I gotta work on being a bit more clear . . . darn.  Sheesh!


----------



## That Guy (Aug 12, 2013)

Ozarkgal said:


> Didn't notice any uncaring person on here singling you out and showing undue interest in your life, That Guy. I guess we have the "freedom of choice" to have a discussion without being told to shut the hell up, baby.nthego:



Oops.  Nothing like being misunderstood.  Please reference SeaBreeze's explanation of my meaning.  What would I do without her???


----------



## Ozarkgal (Aug 12, 2013)

That Guy said:


> Oops. Nothing like being misunderstood. Please reference SeaBreeze's explanation of my meaning. What would I do without her???



 So sorry That Guy..that's what I get for skimming when in a hurry...I was puzzled, as that vitrolic statement certainly didn't sound like you...please accept my apology for jumping to that conclusion. I agree that everyone makes their own choices in life, and we should try to live and let live.

:sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry::sorry:


*SeaBreeze*..


> I think That Guy was directing his comments at those who are writing these articles in the Time magazine, etc...not the people here discussing it. I agree, live and let live...freedom to choose is theirs, and they should suffer no judgment for it.



SB...once again, thanks for being the voice of reason here.


----------



## Anne (Aug 12, 2013)

Octomom  - the woman (and I use that term lightly in her case) is a selfish POS who doesn't deserve kids.  Last I heard she was unsuccessful as a stripper, and then moved on to porn; she is disgusting, and yup, taxpayers support her and those poor kids now.      :soap2:


----------



## SeaBreeze (Aug 12, 2013)

That Guy said:


> Thanks, SeaBreeze.  That's what I get for thinking it was just understood....   Guess I gotta work on being a bit more clear . . . darn.  Sheesh!





Ozarkgal said:


> SB...once again, thanks for being the voice of reason here.



You're both welcome, I've done the same thing at times and read something in print with total misinterpretation, lol.  That Guy, you don't need to work on _anything_, IMO.  When we talk to each other in typed words, it is _very _easy to sound differently than you intended to in the eyes of some, no fault to either party really.  Ozarkgal, I could've logged back into the forum with TG bit**ing me out for butting in and putting words in his mouth...ya never know. :love_heart:

But, I have to take this opportunity to reiterate what many of us has said in the past about the folks on this forum.  We are all intelligent, respectful, humorous and mature, and I'm honored to be here with all of you.  No nonsensical childish banter here, that makes people's eyes glaze over...and I'm grateful for that, or I for one would be outta here! nthego:


----------



## nan (Aug 12, 2013)

I dont think it's selfish at all, people should have the right to choose for themselves if they want a family or not, without being looked down on if they choose not to.In this Day and age I would be cautious of having children anyway.


----------



## JustBonee (Aug 12, 2013)

Geeezzzz ...  :stupid:..next time I decide to post a link to something, I better read it first, and make sure it is safe for viewing.    
Sorry guys.


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 12, 2013)

A couple of thoughts.

#1. You don't have to bear children to love and care for them. As a child I had two aunties who were childless, one a spinster and the other married. Both women were very significant influences in my life and if my mother had died both would have stepped up to care for my sister and me. Many teachers I have known have devoted their whole lives to children without ever having any of their own. I make this point because I really think the statement "it takes a village to raise a child" has a lot of validity. Selfish people are selfish by nature, not because they happen to be childless.

Which brings me to the other point.

#2. Amongst the younger generations there are all sorts of rancorous divisions between couples with and without children. First there are the "mummy wars" where stay at home mums and working mums each look down on the others for their lifestyle or economic choices about the way they parent their children. Then there are the "child free" couples who sneeringly refer to couples with children as "breeders". Self styled child free people resent children (and their noise) ever intruding into their blissful existence at the coffee shop or on a plane. They also resent paying any taxes that are destined to support children, including for school education. They don't want to be part of the village that raises the next generation in any way at all. Now that is what I call selfish - and antisocial as well.


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 12, 2013)

Do other childless people here get unsolicited sympathy for the fact?  Well meaning old dears tchtching and saying "how sad, I don't know what I'd do without my kids and grandkids"   and/or, "what a shame to be alone when you get old"....   aaaagh !   The temptation to 'shred' them has to be hammered down. 



They are usually the same old dears who whinge about being lumbered with the grandkids who wreaked havoc in their gardens, left their houses trashed and drove them to the medicine cabinet in desperation. 

Perhaps they live the fantasy of being the Earth Mother, borne aloft in adoration by her effusively grateful offspring.  That's very seldom the case. 

 I'm sitting here rummaging through the memories of many, many aging mothers I've known who have been left every bit as 'abandoned' and isolated as I am.  Except I have no bitterness about my chosen lot, they do.  Big time.

My sympathy goes to those who dedicated their lives to ungrateful b*****ds of kids who left home and forgot about them when they didn't need them any more.  Who found them too embarrassing to include in their social circle, or simply couldn't be bothered with them any more because there was no longer enough assistance or money to extract from them.  Now that's plain tragic!

There was the widowed friend of Mum's in Sydney who doted on an only daughter who promised her the world and that she would always look after her and then met and married a man in a whirlwind romance, and moved to his ranch in Montana! 

Within a little over 3 months poor Mae went from being a spoiled and fussed over mum, having all her needs catered for,  to finding herself alone, and totally unable to cope, physically or mentally in an empty house.  She was suddenly completely alone in the world and grieved as though her daughter had died.  She had to learn to be self reliant for the first time in her life and it wasn't easy. 

 She still thought her daughter would send for her, still pretended that she was the center of the daughter's world, but we knew different.  Over the next 12 years that daughter came home to see her mother twice.  Once for a week to show her the two grandkids she'd never really get to know, and once when Mae was dying. She stayed a lot longer than week on that occasion. Long enough to sell off everything of Mae's that she'd inherited.  What a shame Mae was no longer there to 'enjoy' her company!    Yep kids are a real comfort in your old age aren't they?

She was only one of many older parents dumped, insulted, ripped-off for their nest eggs, and just plain abandoned by their children.  Too many to document.
Talking to the oldies in the aged care hostel is enough to break your heart.  I remember well the woman who bragged of having raised 10 children.  Only two of them ever came to visit her at all, and only one ever took her out for a drive occasionally and had her 'home' for Xmas.   Wow, that's not a good percentage is it?

To be fair I've known plenty too, who have kids who actually treat them better than they deserve to be.

It's a lottery as to whether you breed winners or booby prizes.  I was never tempted to buy a ticket.


----------



## JustBonee (Aug 12, 2013)

Diwundrin said:


> To be fair I've known plenty too, who have kids who actually treat them better than they deserve to be.



My three grown kids are Gems, and I am very thankful for them and how they've turned out .. everyday.  People have mentioned it to me.  I don't know why I'm so lucky, but I am,  and I know to appreciate the great bond with them and their spouses.


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm lucky too. And proud of my children and grand children.
However there are no guarantees in life.
Perfection does not exist this side of the grave.


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 12, 2013)

Warrigal said:


> I'm lucky too. And proud of my children and grand children.
> However there are no guarantees in life.
> Perfection does not exist this side of the grave.



Got that last bit right Warri, apparently you have to die to live in Paradise. 

 Good luck with that theory btw.


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 12, 2013)

Peace and quiet may seem exactly like Paradise when it is all over.
And I'm assured that nothing hurts any more.

What else would I want?


----------



## Diwundrin (Aug 12, 2013)

Eggzakery!


----------



## SifuPhil (Aug 12, 2013)

I've always had a problem with the term "selfish" because it can represent so many different things. When I'm surrounded by starving people and I'm well-fed, not sharing my food would be selfish.

But doing something that makes YOUR life better/easier? That's just self-improvement.

I'm not at all sorry to have two wonderful sons, but at this point in my life I wouldn't consider having anymore (!) even if I could ... there comes a time when taking care of #1 is THE priority job.


----------



## That Guy (Aug 13, 2013)

SeaBreeze said:


> But, I have to take this opportunity to reiterate what many of us has said in the past about the folks on this forum.  We are all intelligent, respectful, humorous and mature, and I'm honored to be here with all of you.  No nonsensical childish banter here, that makes people's eyes glaze over...and I'm grateful for that, or I for one would be outta here! nthego:



What she said.


----------



## That Guy (Aug 13, 2013)

SifuPhil said:


> taking care of #1 is THE priority job.



We can't take care of anyone if we don't take care of ourselves first.


----------



## SifuPhil (Aug 13, 2013)

That Guy said:


> We can't take care of anyone if we don't take care of ourselves first.



Exactly what I always taught my students.

Unfortunately the old-school model is to sacrifice until it hurts and to always put other people's needs first, so it was always an uphill battle getting my students to let go of their guilt-trips.


----------



## That Guy (Aug 14, 2013)

And . . . teaching that taking care of one's self first in order to be prepared to sacrifice in the care of others does not define selfishness.  Selfish behavior is more on the order of narcissism.


----------



## That Guy (Aug 14, 2013)

My son hopped in his girlfriend's car many, many years ago at 17 and took off for a drive across the country.  Suddenly, lying awake that night knowing I would never again hear his steps up the wooden walkway and key in the door, I realized I had always wanted to be a father, had done that and now it was over . . .   I have missed him terribly ever since.


----------



## Redlo Nosrep (Feb 13, 2017)

This is an old thread but, since I just got here, I wanted to add my two cents. My husband, the eldest of four children in a strict Catholic family, never wanted kids but was careful not to upset his parents by ever voicing that feeling. I never wanted kids because every ounce of my maternal instinct was drained away by flying international as a stewardess for five years with hundreds of unaccompanied children, most of whom acted out on the plane (especially the ones being shunted between divorced parents on different continents). We were thrilled to find each other and fall in love, without the burden of having to decide to have kids or not becoming a bone of contention. My mother-in-law, bless her heart, only asked me once a day every day when she was going to become a grandmother, and I used all my verbal skills to remain vague and uncommitted without saying, in so many words, that it was none of her business.

Fast forward to years of this, and she's still hoping. The poor lady died before she discovered that hubby's brother and two sisters all got married and ALSO chose not to have children.


----------



## Wilberforce (Feb 13, 2017)

I think that one of the wonders of the age is that a couple or a single can say out loud they don't want children, they don't like children or for  what ever reason  and it is OK. It is simply being honest. When I was a young Mum  there was this ridiculous game that was played. There were folks who didn't want kids and  there was a big chunk of society  that was so shocked at the idea that  couples  just pretended they hadn't been "blessed". How daft is that. I can see nothing but harm in pushing someone into parenthood who doesn't want to be there. Completely round the bend crazy to me.


----------



## applepie_luvr (Feb 15, 2017)

Absolutely not selfish. SMART!


----------



## Annabel (Feb 19, 2017)

Two out of my three daughters have chosen not to have children. The third has one child, and is not planning on having more. Human beings are hardly an endangered species - except maybe by the stupidity of those in power!


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Feb 19, 2017)

My mom was yelling at my younger brother for something. She was all revved up.  Going on  and on. In shear desperation, she said, "I don't know why I had you!". My brother said, "That's what you get for messing around". From the look on her face, I thought she was going to really kill my brother.

When my mom was born 8+ was considered the appropriate size for the average family. By the time I was born, it was down to 2-3.


----------



## horseless carriage (Jul 2, 2022)

When asked: "Who will look after you when you're old?" My thoughts are to go and say that to the many old folk in a care home, most of whom are parents. 
Best/worse insult that I can remember was, about our rather large home: "The size of that house and just the two of you, what a waste of space."


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

I have one child.. and I still got the selfish card shown to  me from all the relatives who insisted that I cannot leave my child to be an only child. This was continuous, and altho' it wasn't to  please them, I did have a second child, when dd was 8 years old and he died... so my Daughter  was and is an only child..who is childless herself from choice.

Still that's not good enough for people.. I am sick and tired of those who insist she'll ''change her mind''... she's almost 47.. if she'd ever wanted children she's had plenty opportunity to have them before now.


----------



## Alligatorob (Jul 2, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> Childless Couples....Selfish?


No, I don't think so.


----------



## bowmore (Jul 2, 2022)

Some time after I married, my in-laws started the "when are you going to have children" bit. I was told we were selfish.  I told my in-laws that if they were ready to feed, clothe and house them we would have them right away.
That shut them up.
P.S. I have 2 wonderful sons.


----------



## Pepper (Jul 2, 2022)

Decades and decades ago I used to hear childless people described as 'selfish.'  I haven't heard that in decades and decades!


----------



## katlupe (Jul 2, 2022)

I had one child as a teenager, an unwed mother at the time. I was never a person who loved babies like lots of women do. I had my child and that was it as far as I was concerned. Now he will never have children himself so I will never be a grandparent. I am content with that. My own mother was so into the grandmother thing that it might have played a part in making me not ever want to be one to begin with.


----------



## JaniceM (Jul 2, 2022)

If it's 100% the decision of both individuals without any pressure, I believe it's a good thing.. much better than feeling "guilted" into having children when they don't want any.  

However, in the distant past I heard it's "selfish" for couples to only have one child, because the child will be lonely, not have siblings to grow up with, etc.  And I do somewhat agree with that viewpoint.


----------



## Pinky (Jul 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> I have one child.. and I still got the selfish card shown to  me from all the relatives who insisted that I cannot leave my child to be an only child. This was continuous, and altho' it wasn't to  please them, I did have a second child, when dd was 8 years old and he died... so my Daughter  was and is an only child..who is childless herself from choice.
> 
> Still that's not good enough for people.. I am sick and tired of those who insist she'll ''change her mind''... she's almost 47.. if she'd ever wanted children she's had plenty opportunity to have them before now.


My daughter is 39 .. she and her husband have opted not to have children. Of my 6 nephews and nieces, only 2 have a child. She has never felt lonely or wanted a sibling. Perhaps the fact that I was a stay-at-home mom has something to do with that. Then again, maybe not.

After I had my daughter, in my mid-30's, my sister started to immediately harp at me to have another baby. I finally told her to please stop. I don't understand people who think they know best whether someone else should have children or not. They need to mind their own business.


----------



## JaniceM (Jul 2, 2022)

Pinky said:


> My daughter is 39 .. she and her husband have opted not to have children. Of my 6 nephews and nieces, only 2 have a child. She has never felt lonely or wanted a sibling. Perhaps the fact that I was a stay-at-home mom has something to do with that.
> 
> After I had my daughter, in my mid-30's, my sister started to immediately harp at me to have another baby. I finally told her to please stop. I don't understand people who think they know best whether someone else should have children or not. They need to mind their own business.


Well, I do agree with you-  I would never tell anybody to have kids, not have kids, or any other intrusions into their personal lives.


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

Pinky said:


> My daughter is 39 .. she and her husband have opted not to have children. Of my 6 nephews and nieces, only 2 have a child. She has never felt lonely or wanted a sibling. Perhaps the fact that I was a stay-at-home mom has something to do with that. Then again, maybe not.
> 
> After I had my daughter, in my mid-30's, my sister started to immediately harp at me to have another baby. I finally told her to please stop. I don't understand people who think they know best whether someone else should have children or not. They need to mind their own business.


exactly Pinks.. as I always said to people when daughter was little.. she has the best of both worlds. When she wanted company she can have her friends around and when she wanted to be alone, she  doesn't have to endure pestering siblings...

I do have to say that I personally wish I'd  had more children now.. simply because when I die she's going to be alone.. ..but there's nothing I can do about that now, and she does have many friends..


----------



## horseless carriage (Jul 2, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> However, in the distant past I heard it's "selfish" for couples to only have one child, because the child will be lonely, not have siblings to grow up with, etc.  And I do somewhat agree with that viewpoint.


Like Pepper said, the selfish remark is not something that we have heard for many a year. But I would say that children do come at a financial cost. How often we heard when we were newlyweds, how can you put a price on the love of children? That is such a naïve attitude: 
In 2020, the additional basic cost of a child, from birth to age 18, was £71,611 for a couple family and £97,862 for a lone-parent family. If housing and childcare costs are added these rise to £152,747 and £185,413 respectively. 

The point that I'm making Janice is that there are some people who sacrifice much to have just one baby. They simply cannot afford a second child, it's hardly selfish, to my way of thinking, that is.


----------



## JaniceM (Jul 2, 2022)

horseless carriage said:


> Like Pepper said, the selfish remark is not something that we have heard for many a year. But I would say that children do come at a financial cost. How often we heard when we were newlyweds, how can you put a price on the love of children? That is such a naïve attitude:
> In 2020, the additional basic cost of a child, from birth to age 18, was £71,611 for a couple family and £97,862 for a lone-parent family. If housing and childcare costs are added these rise to £152,747 and £185,413 respectively.
> 
> The point that I'm making Janice is that there are some people who sacrifice much to have just one baby. They simply cannot afford a second child, it's hardly selfish, to my way of thinking, that is.


True, you and others here have made valid points for one-child families.


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

horseless carriage said:


> Like Pepper said, the selfish remark is not something that we have heard for many a year. But I would say that children do come at a financial cost. How often we heard when we were newlyweds, how can you put a price on the love of children? That is such a naïve attitude:
> In 2020, the additional basic cost of a child, from birth to age 18, was £71,611 for a couple family and £97,862 for a lone-parent family. If housing and childcare costs are added these rise to £152,747 and £185,413 respectively.
> 
> The point that I'm making Janice is that there are some people who sacrifice much to have just one baby. They simply cannot afford a second child, it's hardly selfish, to my way of thinking, that is.


well HC you're stating the obvious to all of us parents I'm afraid, we're all very well aware how much it's cost us over the years to raise our children..


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> True, you and others here have made valid points for one-child families.


HC doesn't have children...


----------



## JaniceM (Jul 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> HC doesn't have children...


Yes, I kinda figured that from his post.  Didn't know for sure though.


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Yes, I kinda figured that from his post.  Didn't know for sure though.


It's Pinky and Me that have only one child...


----------



## horseless carriage (Jul 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> well HC you're stating the obvious to all of us parents I'm afraid, we're all very well aware how much it's cost us over the years to raise our children..


Hopefully not in anyway that causes insult or distress. We certainly had our share of that.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Jul 2, 2022)

More and more are opting not to have children. When I was married it was just 'the thing to do'  lol..I never questioned whether I would or not. I am very happy I did. However, I have no grandchildren and frankly, I am great with that too. It is their life and they need to decide if children are to be part of it.


----------



## WheatenLover (Jul 2, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> Heard a big controversial discussion on the radio about the new Time magazine cover about couples who choose not to have children.  Some people thought it was selfish of them, and I think that's ridiculous.


I say it is no one's business except for the couple. Certainly, it is not selfish.


----------



## Judycat (Jul 2, 2022)

It's none of my business if people want children or not. I remember once some guy at a church function asked if we are trying to have children, when we answered yes, he immediately started in with how much it cost to raise a child. I have zero patience when it comes to people doing that. My husband grabbed my arm right away as a reminder as to where we were. I remember the anger shooting down my spine and could easily have jumped up and broken a plate over that guy's head. I wish I would have now. It still makes my blood run cold when I think about it.


----------



## oldaunt (Jul 2, 2022)

The smartest of people have one child or less these days. Our ball of dirt is overpopulated and resources are stressed. Most are irreplaceable. That said; its on you to choose.


----------



## JustBonee (Jul 2, 2022)

Some childless couples  had wanted children,  but for  various reasons couldn't have them.  
It's their personal business.


----------



## officerripley (Jul 2, 2022)

My huzz and I chose not to have children because both of us are of the firm opinion that not everyone is cut out to be a good parent, and we both felt/feel that we weren't. Neither one of my parents should've had children and I've always known I shouldn't either.


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

officerripley said:


> My huzz and I chose not to have children because both of us are of the firm opinion that not everyone is cut out to be a good parent, and we both felt/feel that we weren't. Neither one of my parents should've had children and I've always known I shouldn't either.


my husband felt exactly like that from the time he was a young man, and was adamant he didn't want children. At the age of 28 he had the snip so there could never be any ''accidents''


----------



## horseless carriage (Jul 2, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> my husband felt exactly like that from the time he was a young man, and was adamant he didn't want children. At the age of 28 he had the snip so there could never be any ''accidents''


I did that at 21, had to go private, (sorry no pun intended about privates,) the NHS were appalled.


----------



## oldaunt (Jul 2, 2022)

I was 27 before I could talk a doc into a tubal. I have ever been grateful to that very understanding man. 50years ago, it just wasn't DONE!


----------



## hollydolly (Jul 2, 2022)

oldaunt said:


> I was 27 before I could talk a doc into a tubal. I have ever been grateful to that very understanding man. 50years ago, it just wasn't DONE!


True... I asked  to be sterilised when I was in my 30's, they sent me away with a flea in my ear , telling me to come back when I was 45 because I could change my mind and want more children.. ..I didn't want more children, I knew I wasn't going to change my mind but they wouldn't change their minds.

I had it done at 40... 27 years ago..

My little  sister had , had 4 children by the time she was 22 years old.. she begged  to be sterlised at 28 .. nope, they still insisted she might want more children.. .. she didn't want more children, and she didn't get the procedure until she was in her 40's


----------



## Raddragn (Jul 2, 2022)

*What I find ironic is the attitude of white nationalists who think doing away with abortion is going to result in more white females having more white babies - thereby increasing the ratio of whites to other races. What they seem to overlook is the fact that lack of this type of health care is not just going to have an affect white women - it will  an even have a bigger effect on number of minorities being born - and since the socioeconomic level of white women is somewhate higher than many minorities - especially in the south, the result is going to be not many more white babies, but likely many more  minority babies because the women will not be able to afford contraceptive care.*


----------



## Alligatorob (Jul 2, 2022)

Raddragn said:


> What I find ironic is the attitude of white nationalists who think doing away with abortion is going to result in more white females having more white babies - thereby increasing the ratio of whites to other races.


Did not know white nationalists thought that way.  Not saying they don't you probably are right, I just do my best not to listen to anything a person says once I know they are a white nationalist.  

Can't be much worth listening to after that...


----------



## oldaunt (Jul 2, 2022)

Raddragn said:


> *What I find ironic is the attitude of white nationalists who think doing away with abortion is going to result in more white females having more white babies - thereby increasing the ratio of whites to other races. What they seem to overlook is the fact that lack of this type of health care is not just going to have an affect white women - it will  an even have a bigger effect on number of minorities being born - and since the socioeconomic level of white women is somewhate higher than many minorities - especially in the south, the result is going to be not many more white babies, but likely many more  minority babies because the women will not be able to afford contraceptive care.*


You missed the entire point of the issue, which was simply to put it back in the hands of the states where it should have stayed. THAT way, if you don't like your state policy, you CAN vote to change it. How did THAT ever become a problem? It is NOT a constitutional issue, therefore not a FEDERAL issue.


----------



## Raddragn (Jul 2, 2022)

Nope - doesn't change the basic mechanism


----------



## jujube (Jul 2, 2022)

My late husband and I both came from large families....I had five sisters and he was one of eleven kids.  We planned to have six.  Then four sounded good, and three and maybe two?

The good Lord graced us with one.  We stopped there.  The best form of birth control is the first child.....


----------



## C50 (Jul 2, 2022)

Good gosh, just another subject that people use to cause drama.  How is it anyone's business if someone wants to have children or not?   

No, childless couples are not selfish.  They don't need to have kids, or a dog, or a house, they are simply living live on their own terms.


----------



## Don M. (Jul 2, 2022)

IMO, the worst thing about not having children would be Not having someone close and trustworthy to watch over us as we age....to be sure we are getting the care and services we might need, without being taken advantage of.


----------



## dseag2 (Jul 2, 2022)

Don M. said:


> IMO, the worst thing about not having children would be Not having someone close and trustworthy to watch over us as we age....to be sure we are getting the care and services we might need, without being taken advantage of.


That is very true in certain cases.  I am an only child who made sure my mother was well taken care of for 22 years after my father passed away.  However, I also know many adult children who have neglected their elderly parents and who have actually gotten into fights with their siblings over their parents' care and over their estates.  

I never had children, but if I had I would have never expected that they would take care of me in my old age.  You obviously have great, grown kids and that speaks to your abilities as a father.


----------



## win231 (Jul 2, 2022)

Anyone who says someone is selfish because they don't have kids is an idiot.
My mom had 4 kids for the wrong reasons.  She shouldn't have had any.  No unfit parent should have any kids.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Jul 3, 2022)

If the biggest worry in your life is childless couples, it's time to go to the home.


----------



## Jules (Jul 3, 2022)

Deciding to have a child is strictly a decision of the couple and nobody else’s business.  I detest people who ask someone ‘why’.


----------



## David777 (Jul 3, 2022)

(dated 2013 thread) 
Lower USA birth levels is a major reason Wall Street that depends on endlessly expanding growth markets selfishly promotes open immigration through back door political actions that is contributing to the destruction of our fragile blue water planet with its precious life.  I've always wanted a wife and children but due to a serious medical issue suffered at age 21, splenic artery pseudoaneurysm, never as an adult became healthy enough to feel confident I would be there over the long term to support them that I consider a soberingly immense responsibility.  

https://npg.org/npg/choice-childfree-increasing-factor-u-s-population-growth.html
snippet:

_There is also a significant financial element attached to parenthood.  Recently, the U.S. Department of Agriculture projected that – not including college expenses – parents will spend an average of $245,340 to raise one child born in 2013.  And while some economists are crying for higher birth and immigration rates to ease a pending economic disaster, many experts are speaking out that America’s declining birthrate doesn’t mean collapse.  Even lower fertility rates are present in other countries with strong economies.  Some people simply want to keep their expendable income rather than spend it on a family, and – if we consider Japan or some of the Scandinavian countries – it doesn’t seem that our Gross Domestic Product is necessarily doomed to shrink if there isn’t a new rush of births to create future consumers...

Some consider their choice to go childless as their contribution to saving our planet. Whether the motive is personal happiness, to pursue an education, securing a successful career, to prevent extensive financial responsibility, or protecting the environment, it seems clear:  the option to live life without children is a viable one, and it is rapidly growing in popularity._


----------



## Judycat (Jul 3, 2022)

Jules said:


> Deciding to have a child is strictly a decision of the couple and nobody else’s business.  I detest people who ask someone ‘why’.


...and then refer to your husband as a sperm donor. Grr.


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jul 3, 2022)

Many childless couples are* Waiting for a baby to adopt*.  Last I checked there were over 2,000 couple waiting.  Many of these couples do not share their problems, so some may think they are childless by choice.  So be careful what you assume...

By the way, I hope that Planned Parenthood and other providers of abortions fully advise expectant mothers of this option and the waiting parents...it seems it would be the ethical thing to do.  But I fear they do not...


----------



## Timewise 60+ (Jul 3, 2022)

Raddragn said:


> *What I find ironic is the attitude of white nationalists who think doing away with abortion is going to result in more white females having more white babies - thereby increasing the ratio of whites to other races. What they seem to overlook is the fact that lack of this type of health care is not just going to have an affect white women - it will  an even have a bigger effect on number of minorities being born - and since the socioeconomic level of white women is somewhate higher than many minorities - especially in the south, the result is going to be not many more white babies, but likely many more  minority babies because the women will not be able to afford contraceptive care.*



Where in the world did you get this 'white nationalists' theory?  I know they are nothing more than NAZI's.  And you already defined why they would never stop abortions...let me expand on that!

From what I have read if you combine abortions of just Black and Hispanic women, they represent over 40% of total abortions.  Therefore, stopping those abortions would substantially increase the number of babies of color.  Something the Nazi's would not want.  They have not missed that fact, so wherever you read this.... I think it is not true!


----------



## Nathan (Jul 3, 2022)

> Childless Couples....Selfish?


Where does the "selfish" concept even come from?  If people don't want to have children why then "should" they have children???   They would be the very people that I would not want to see have children.   Of course, as I see our society there's lots and lots of people that are grossly UN-qualified to have children.    People should be exposed to some practical wisdom while in grade school, you know: like "how to" raise a child, for starters.    Then, when they become adults  they can take the parenting exam, and if they pass can get a permit, and get their reproductive organs surgically restored.


----------



## JaniceM (Jul 3, 2022)

Timewise 60+ said:


> Many childless couples are* Waiting for a baby to adopt*.  Last I checked there were over 2,000 couple waiting.  Many of these couples do not share their problems, so some may think they are childless by choice.  So be careful what you assume...
> 
> By the way, I hope that Planned Parenthood and other providers of abortions fully advise expectant mothers of this option and the waiting parents...it seems it would be the ethical thing to do.  But I fear they do not...


I don't think so either.  From "counselors" who tell teenage girls all there is to being a parent is getting a job, to parents who raise H*ll at the idea of their teens giving up their babies for adoption saying they want the teens and their babies to live with them.


----------

