# Wisdom and Religion



## Derby (Feb 21, 2018)

[FONT=&quot]Can religion make you wise? Does it take a spiritual or mystical experience to deliver wisdom? A researcher in California by the name of Dao Le was interested in this question. To find the answer, he studied a large group of Americans. Within this group, he isolated those who claimed to have had mystical or spiritual experiences as the result of their faith practices. He found that only a portion of the group had become wiser.  Those who’d succeeded in developing wisdom had taken time to reflect upon the experience. They’d also integrated the spiritual event, or events, into their established values. Dissimilarly, those who’d had a mystical or spiritual experience but simply used it for bragging rights had missed the opportunity to become wise. [/FONT]
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  [FONT=&quot]The moral of this story probably doesn’t need to be stated.  Humility and introspection appear to be key to the development of wisdom. These characteristics are mentioned repeatedly in sacred literature throughout the world.  [/FONT]
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  [FONT=&quot]Religious practice can be a cultural activity, a habit, an excuse to socialize, superstition, the result of social pressure, or a profound spiritual experience. Speaking for myself, my religious practice has featured elements of all the above.  Religion and spirituality themselves can lead separate lives under the same steeple or synagogue roof. Within a lifetime, you might wander back and forth, experiencing a range of thoughts and feelings about religion. One day you might be ecstatic, and within a week, completely bored. You might change faiths. You might leave altogether and never return, yet still remember the stuff that made sense. Your religion, if you have one, is like the elementary school you attended. That’s where you received your foundational knowledge. It’s the basic stuff. Without it, you’ll need to scrounge for material before you begin framing wisdom.[/FONT]
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  [FONT=&quot]An example of wisdom teaching from the Judeo-Christian tradition is the story of King Solomon and his approach to conflict resolution. In this story, t[/FONT][FONT=&quot]wo women were arguing over a newborn baby. Both had recently given birth, but one had rolled over in the night and suffocated her child. When Solomon came upon them, they were arguing over the surviving infant. One woman accused the other of having stolen her child in the night. Solomon proposed a solution: he would take his sword and cut the child in half so that both mothers could have a portion. One mother relented immediately, crying, “No! Let her take the child!” It was to this mother that Solomon awarded the infant. He knew that the true mother would rather surrender her child than see it killed.[/FONT]
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  [FONT=&quot]Buddhists in search of wisdom draw inspiration from the Buddha`s spiritual path. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To him, wisdom came from understanding the true nature of reality.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He taught that wisdom was strengthened through compassion. Yet from his point of view, empathy didn`t actually exist. To the Buddha, wisdom came from being able to both feel empathy and to free oneself from the illusion of the world. [/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]*
  [FONT=&quot]Those who follow the teachings of Confucius know that the characteristics he commended included respect for one’s parents, refinement, sincerity, simplicity, and “ren,” which translates to humanity.  He preached a version of what westerners know as the Golden Rule. Confucius said, “what you do not wish for yourself, do not impose on others.”  [/FONT]
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*[FONT=&quot]Discussion Question[/FONT]*
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]As religion plays a lesser part in the lives of many during the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century, role models and inspirations outside of faith must be sought.  If you were asked by someone younger – for example, by a 15-year-old – how to develop wisdom without any spiritual or religious practice, what would you advise? [/FONT]
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## Warrigal (Feb 21, 2018)

> Humility and introspection appear to be key to the development of wisdom



I haven't the time now to give this topic the attention it deserves but this sentence speaks loudly IMO.


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## Lon (Feb 21, 2018)

No I don't believe it takes a spiritual or mystical experience to deliver wisdom? Good Topic!!!!​


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## Derby (Feb 21, 2018)

Lon said:


> No I don't believe it takes a spiritual or mystical experience to deliver wisdom? Good Topic!!!!​




I'd be interested in learning why you believe this.


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## Warrigal (Feb 21, 2018)

> As religion plays a lesser part in the lives of many during the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century, role models and inspirations outside of faith must be sought.  If you were asked by someone younger – for example, by a 15-year-old – how to develop wisdom without any spiritual or religious practice, what would you advise?



First of all, it would be a  remarkable 15 year old that would ask such a question but if I was asked I might suggest that he/she should seek inner calm and serenity of spirit. I would also advise living life to the full and learning about the human condition through experience and by listening to many voices.


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## Olivia (Feb 22, 2018)

Lon said:


> No I don't believe it takes a spiritual or mystical experience to deliver wisdom? Good Topic!!!!​



I totally believe that, too. Lon. One is either born wise, or you're not. Can we get wiser? Absolutely. in many ways. By living and experience? Yes. By religious changing one's thinking--not really. It only gives us the incentive to do the good which we already knew we should.


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## chic (Feb 22, 2018)

Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius was wise without being religious or humble. I don't know what I'd tell a 15 year old in search of wisdom. You can learn anything almost anywhere everyday. Wisdom comes through reflection and application.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 22, 2018)

"Wisdom" means not generating duplicate content by reposting something one has already posted on Buzz50. :apathy:


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## Mizzkitt (Feb 22, 2018)

Buddhists are not usually ones to talk much. Could be that listening then is the key to wisdom.

And that is the advice I would give to a 15 year old. One mouth, two ears as the saying goes.


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## Gary O' (Feb 22, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> "Wisdom" means not generating duplicate content by reposting something one has already posted on Buzz50. :apathy:


Sounds like a new thread in the making;
*Repetitive duplicate redundancy and wisdom, can they exist in the same skull?*


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 22, 2018)

IMO the value of religion in developing wisdom is in the collection of stories relating to life lessons.  I believe that a young person can gain that same knowledge and develop the skills needed to see the lessons in life by reading the works of wise and observant people like Aesop, Mother Goose, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Will Rogers, etc...

I also think that associating with and observing people with the skills that you would like to develop can yield big dividends over time.  It doesn't really matter if you are trying to become healthy, wealthy or wise.  Emulating a person that has developed a skill by trial and error can save you a great deal of time and will allow you to surpass the achievements of your role model.


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Lon said:


> No I don't believe it takes a spiritual or mystical experience to deliver wisdom? Good Topic!!!!​



Experience
Hi, Lon! I'm interested in what you believe wisdom requires. Scientific evidence? Knowledge? Experience? Thanks!


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO the value of religion in developing wisdom is in the collection of stories relating to life lessons.  I believe that a young person can gain that same knowledge and develop the skills needed to see the lessons in life by reading the works of wise and observant people like Aesop, Mother Goose, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Will Rogers, etc...
> 
> I also think that associating with and observing people with the skills that you would like to develop can yield big dividends over time.  It doesn't really matter if you are trying to become healthy, wealthy or wise.  Emulating a person that has developed a skill by trial and error can save you a great deal of time and will allow you to surpass the achievements of your role model.



So apprenticeship and literature are the keys to wisdom for youth. Now what about us old folks? Can we develop wisdom? If so, how?


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Sounds like a new thread in the making;
> *Repetitive duplicate redundancy and wisdom, can they exist in the same skull?*




Ha ha! Repetition and redundancy -- hard to avoid at my age. I repeat myself constantly -- but at least I have the sense nowadays to say, "Now stop me if you've heard this one."


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Mizzkitt said:


> Buddhists are not usually ones to talk much. Could be that listening then is the key to wisdom.
> 
> And that is the advice I would give to a 15 year old. One mouth, two ears as the saying goes.




Excellent advice.


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

chic said:


> Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius was wise without being religious or humble. I don't know what I'd tell a 15 year old in search of wisdom. You can learn anything almost anywhere everyday. Wisdom comes through reflection and application.



_Thank you for mentioning Marcus Aurelius. After the death of two sons, Aurelius stated: *'O*_*ne man prays: 'How I may not lose my little child', but you must pray: 'How I may not be afraid to lose him*_.' __ If a 15-year old were to ask me how to develop wisdom, I might look to this quote and suggest working to develop emotional strength and moral courage. Do you believe that’s a fair representation of Aurelius’ wisdom, or was there more to him that I'm missing?_


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## Victor (Mar 20, 2018)

Ultimately this is a controversial cul de sac as most or all professional philosophers will tell you.
Philosophy which is the search or love of wisdom (from Greek philo sophia) has innumerable answers and everyone disagrees with them.
So there is no definite answer.
No 15 year old boy would ask that question or understand it.
Some philosophers suggest reading Plato and Aristotle, but no 15 year old will understand them. Most adults do not/cannot.
Religious "wisdom" assumes that God exists, which itself is open to debate.
Large part of wisdom is purely theoretical, not relevant to daily life.


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## Sunny (Mar 20, 2018)

I always wondered about that King Solomon story.  It assumes that the other women (not the real mother) is a psychopath who would rather see a baby cut in half than give it up to the rightful mother?

I realize this story is probably apocryphal and not at all true, but it always seemed kind of dumb to me. If King Solomon was supposed to be so wise, how come this is the most enduring story known about him?

To answer your question, I believe that religion has nothing at all to do with wisdom. People can be wise or not, with or without it.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 20, 2018)

Victor said:


> ... Large part of wisdom is purely theoretical, not relevant to daily life.



Totally disagree on this point.


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## Knight (Mar 20, 2018)

The question


Quote
"how to develop wisdom without any spiritual or religious practice"


Looking at religion as the source to impart "the quality of having , and good judgment; 


Summed up as the quality of being wise. A chimpanzee as a representative of the animal world imparts wisdom to it's offspring. The good judgement part developes from experience and knowledge gained. Done without religion.


Within the animal world survival or dominance dictate. Humans with religion go beyond that simple structure. Numerous directions on why to kill another human that have nothing to do with survival or dominance can be found in christian and religions. 


Wisdom comes from being exposed to the world we live in. I don't think religion  portrays the reality of the world we live in now. Becoming wise takes time, imparting what our own experiences have taught us will be the choice of the listener.


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I always wondered about that King Solomon story.  It assumes that the other women (not the real mother) is a psychopath who would rather see a baby cut in half than give it up to the rightful mother?
> 
> I realize this story is probably apocryphal and not at all true, but it always seemed kind of dumb to me. If King Solomon was supposed to be so wise, how come this is the most enduring story known about him?
> 
> To answer your question, I believe that religion has nothing at all to do with wisdom. People can be wise or not, with or without it.




An interesting point about King Solomon is that he eventually lost his wisdom and became immersed in material gain. That implies that wealth is antithetical to wisdom. I wonder about this. Would it have been possible for Solomon to have become wealthy and yet retain his famous wisdom? Or was his wisdom actually misrepresented from the start? As you say, offering to cut a baby in two was clever since one of the women was clearly nuts. But what if both others had been sane? What if both of the women had surrendered the baby in order to save its life?


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## Derby (Mar 20, 2018)

Knight said:


> The question
> 
> 
> Quote
> ...





I wonder if the goal of scriptures in all cultures isn't to fast-track wisdom. As you say, becoming wise takes time. And since we hope to spare our children our worst mistakes, I can see the purpose in committing advice on good living to scriptural text.


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## Olivia (Mar 20, 2018)

I think if I ever reached the epitome of wisdom, I would simply cease to exist, because what else would there be left to live for?


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## exwisehe (Mar 20, 2018)

I'm not sure I can add anything to the discussion, and I'm still looking for some indication that I am wise, or even on the road to wisdom.

Since the original post did mention religion along with wisdom, I think it may be appropriate to bring a few points from scripture to bear upon the issue.

According to the bible, the wisest choice a human can make is to seek the foundation of wisdom and that, according to Proverbs, is “*the fear of the Lord*”. (Prov. 9:10)

Jesus gave us many wise precepts along the same lines. For example he illustrated this with the account of a rich man with abundant harvests, but who ran out of space to store his crops and decided to build bigger barns.  He even said to himself “*take life easy and eat drink and be merry*.” Jesus said of him “*You fool*!”, and explained that if his life suddenly ended, who would get his surplus? 

The lesson here is that Jesus was saying that the rich farmer had only considered himself and no one else.  Further, He said that the wisest thing a person can do is store up treasures in heaven, that is, to be rich toward God.  Treasures in heaven cannot rust or be stolen by thieves. 

In other words, as the apostle Paul declared in Romans, ch 1, those who “*neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.*” He then went on to say that they claimed to be wise, but in fact were fools. Why? 

Jesus gave the answer when He said that if we don’t acknowledge Him before men, then He will not acknowledge us before the angels in heaven. (Luke 12:9)  The wisest man in all the bible, except for Jesus, was Solomon who exhorted us to “ *Fear God and keep his commandments,* *for this is the duty of all mankind*.” (Eccles. 12)

Just some thoughts to consider.


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## RadishRose (Mar 20, 2018)

Well, you're just talking about a Christian religion. There are others.


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## exwisehe (Mar 20, 2018)

Sure there are, and I respect them and have many friends among them.

If they want to respond to what their religion deems to be wisdom, I would be happy to hear it.


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## RiverUp (Mar 22, 2018)

exwisehe said:


> I'm not sure I can add anything to the discussion, and I'm still looking for some indication that I am wise, or even on the road to wisdom.
> 
> Since the original post did mention religion along with wisdom, I think it may be appropriate to bring a few points from scripture to bear upon the issue.
> 
> ...



Interesting quotes here.  I enjoyed reading them.  Thanks.


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## Derby (Mar 24, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Well, you're just talking about a Christian religion. There are others.




Among those of us who are Christian, few embrace a life of poverty. Personally, I consider myself a Christian, but having been poor for the first half of my life and relatively comfortable for the second, I have to say that it's much easier to live a life of charity, love, and understanding with a full belly. Looking to the Buddhist tradition, I found these interesting snippets from Anguttara Nikayas, III, 352:

The Buddha said, ‘Hunger is the greatest illness’.
Also, the Buddha said that peace of mind is impossible when one is worried about money. Therefore, ‘for householders in the world, poverty is suffering.’  He went on to describe how poverty leads to theft, lying, and murder. 

Looking to a different tradition, in his Analects, Confucius said: “To be wealthy and honored in an unjust society is a disgrace," and  "Exemplary persons help out the needy; they do not make the rich richer."*

*Perhaps what we do with our money is what defines the wise from the unwise. Or perhaps the way to wisdom differs for those who are living as monks or nuns as compared to those of us who are laypeople.


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## Derby (Mar 24, 2018)

Olivia said:


> I think if I ever reached the epitome of wisdom, I would simply cease to exist, because what else would there be left to live for?



Do you believe that sharing your wisdom might give your life meaning?


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## adviceseeker (Jul 30, 2018)

I don't think you need to go to church to be spiritual. I asked the creator of the universe to give me truth and also the ability to accept it. I think it will take my entire life to receive the answer to this request.


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## adviceseeker (Jul 30, 2018)

“Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”  
  ―    ​Albert Einstein​


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I always wondered about that King Solomon story.  It assumes that the other women (not the real mother) is a psychopath who would rather see a baby cut in half than give it up to the rightful mother?
> 
> I realize this story is probably apocryphal and not at all true, but it always seemed kind of dumb to me. If King Solomon was supposed to be so wise, how come this is the most enduring story known about him?
> 
> To answer your question, I believe that religion has nothing at all to do with wisdom. People can be wise or not, with or without it.



:yes:


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## KingsX (Jul 30, 2018)

Derby said:


> [FONT=&quot]Can religion make you wise?    [/FONT]





_*The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, 
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.*_

Proverbs 9:10


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2018)

adviceseeker said:


> I don't think you need to go to church to be spiritual. I asked the creator of the universe to give me truth and also the ability to accept it. I think it will take my entire life to receive the answer to this request.


The purpose of going to a Christian church is not about "needing to go to church to be spiritual"..."Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God" - Romans 10:17. Hearing can be via TV, radio, missionaries, and reading the Bible and praying for clarity and asking God for discernment of the truth.

Church doesn't even need a roof. The purpose of a gathering of like-minded believers seeking truth (and also unbelievers who want truthful answers) is about fellowship with those gathered, seeking and praising God, prayerful conversation with God, studying his word, and fellowship with our God who created the Universe. 

Since the truth you're waiting for is found in God's word (aka Bible) which is shared and studied in Church (or gathering) then if a church is not using the Bible and relying on it's scripture verses, then it's going to be a lot harder for them to find God's truth and ability to accept, because that's where our answers are...in God's Word and through prayer and songs of praise.

Church is also about enjoying fellowship with other Christians, lifting them up, serving God, and about reaching outside of ourselves to serve others inside and outside the church.


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## adviceseeker (Jul 30, 2018)

You heard something I didn't say. You heard, "Don't go to church." What I said was, you can be spiritual without it. Since there is so much fighting over religion, I think it wise to ask the Creator to fill you with his truth and then also ask him to make you willing to accept his truth alone. If we all asked our Creator for that, we'd all be on the same page. I'm glad to hear there's someone out there who believes in God because I was just feeling horrible at all the "No God" responses. Thanks so much for replying to my comment. May God supply you with his truth alone and give you a heart willing to accept his truth alone. Peace Sister.


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

KingsX said:


> _*The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
> And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.*_
> 
> Proverbs 9:10




WHY does one need to be in fear in order to seek knowledge?
Why does one even need to be ‘afraid’ of their creator and WHY would our creator want us to be?:shrug:

Isn’t that ‘man’s’ interpretation  of what we think our creator wants from us and how did we ,as a species , come to that conclusion?


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## adviceseeker (Jul 30, 2018)

Why should we fear our creator? Do you have children? Just as children need to fear their parents sometimes, so we, the children of our maker must fear him. A whole lot of evil that humans inflict on each other would decrease greatly if we had a healthy dose of fear instilled in us towards our creator.


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## KingsX (Jul 30, 2018)

KingsX said:


> _*
> 
> The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
> And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.*_
> ...






Keesha said:


> WHY does one need to be in fear in order to seek knowledge?
> Why does one even need to be ‘afraid’ of their creator and WHY would our creator want us to be?:shrug:




The divine irony is... God's answer to such a question might be a fearful object lesson.

.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2018)

Keesha said:


> WHY does one need to be in fear in order to seek knowledge?
> Why does one even need to be ‘afraid’ of their creator and WHY would our creator want us to be?:shrug:
> 
> Isn’t that ‘man’s’ interpretation  of what we think our creator wants from us and how did we ,as a species , come to that conclusion?


There are numerous scripture verses that say "fear the Lord". If you put them all in context with each other, then it simply means this...

Fearing the Lord means to humble ourselves, let go of how we see our own self-righteousness, and turn from evil. We are to respect, believe, and trust God in all things. This is the beginning of Wisdom. Fear of God, is this context is, Respect for God.

How is "fear of the Lord" the "path to Wisdom?... https://www.gotquestions.org/fear-Lord-beginning-wisdom.html

Adviceseeker in post #37 is saying the same thing I just said but in a different way.


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## Lara (Jul 30, 2018)

I think this is the clearest explanation what the "fear of our Creator" means:

"Without the fear of the Lord, we make final decisions based on our faulty human understanding (Proverbs 3:5–6). When we incorporate the fear of the Lord into every moment of our lives, we make decisions based upon His approval. We live with the knowledge that the Creator of the universe is intimately involved in our every move. He sees, knows, and evaluates all our choices, and we will answer to Him (Psalm 139:1–4).

*Our respect for God’s majesty causes us to honor Him* (Psalm 29:2). Our gratitude for His mercy causes us to serve Him well (Psalm 2:11; 107:15). And the understanding that our God of love is also a God of wrath inspires enough fear to help us stay away from evil (Romans 1:18; Proverbs 8:13). Sin is foolish; righteousness is wise. When we live righteously, we are on the* path to wisdom*, and everyone in our lives benefits (Proverbs 13:20; 19:8)." ... https://www.gotquestions.org/fear-Lord-beginning-wisdom.html


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

Fear and love are incompatible with each other. There is no fear in love for perfect love casteth  out fear. Fear has to do with punishment and it tends to be banished by love. In all the best worship, fear is totally absent. 


It’s a basic psychological fact that  love is inhibited and distorted by fear. If God is perfect love and loves us just how we are and we are made in his reflection then why does ‘religion in general’ wish to instil fear? To me, it seems like the main purpose fear is used is to manipulate and gain some type of control. 


Is it possible that religion was created by man in order to manipulate and control society? 

No I don’t have children but I have parents that instilled a LOT of fear in me and I did not find it helpful in developing my sense of self in the world. 

Note: I’m not looking for a vicious religious debate here; I’m  just looking for a logical explanation and without insulting anyone, this explanation ^^^^ doesn’t seem logical.


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

And for the record I believe in God fully and completely.


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## Olivia (Jul 30, 2018)

I believe that "fear" in the Bible simply means respect and not to shake in your boots just thinking about God and what horrible things She's going do to you.


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## KingsX (Jul 30, 2018)

.

Posters previously mentioned King Solomon.  

 2 Chronicles 1  and 1 Kings 3 both relate how God offered Solomon anything he wanted.  But Solomon only asked for the wisdom and knowledge to properly govern God's people.  God was impressed that Solomon did not ask for the things heathen kings desire - power, wealth and the deaths of their enemies.  God not only granted Solomon knowledge and wisdom, but also gave him wealth and power and a long rule in a time of peace during which he built the temple.

Ironically,  towards the end of his life,  it was Solomon's many wives and concubines who was his downfall.  Many of them were foreign women who turned Solomon's heart away from God to worship false gods.

After the death of Solomon,  the 12 tribes of Israel had a civil war and split into two kingdoms... the Kingdom of Israel that Assyria destroyed, expelling those Israelites from the Holy Land... and the Kingdom of Judah whose capital was Jerusalem until Babylon conquered them, taking most of them into Babylon as captives...  and destroying both Jerusalem and the temple in the process.


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## Shalimar (Jul 30, 2018)

If Solomon turned towards other Gods, I believe that was his choice, not the responsibility of his wives and concubines.


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

Maybe King Solomon shouldn’t have had so many wives and concubines. 
That does  NOT seem very wise to me. 

Plus the story doesn’t really answer anything. Lol


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## KingsX (Jul 30, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> If Solomon turned towards other Gods, I believe that was his choice, not the responsibility of his wives and concubines.




I'm relating what the Bible says... 1 Kings 11

" *For when Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods*, 
and he was not wholeheartedly devoted to the LORD his God, as his father David had been. "

Solomon disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17

" And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, 
nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. "

God punished Solomon by taking the united kingdom from his son/household
via the civil war I mentioned in my last post.


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## Shalimar (Jul 30, 2018)

adviceseeker said:


> Why should we fear our creator? Do you have children? Just as children need to fear their parents sometimes, so we, the children of our maker must fear him. A whole lot of evil that humans inflict on each other would decrease greatly if we had a healthy dose of fear instilled in us towards our creator.



I disagree. Fear begets fear, as violence begets violence. Learn responsibility, accountability,  consequence, tolerance, honour, compassion, humility, empathy, these are the building  blocks of wisdom. The Divine is not wrathful, but loving.  We are not punished, but may develop spiritually through various situations, stressful or otherwise.  For those who have been to Hell and back, the power of love is the greatest force in the Universe.it is the ultimate miracle, I have seen it in my life, and the lives of others.


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## KingsX (Jul 30, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Maybe King Solomon shouldn’t have had so many wives and concubines.
> That does  NOT seem very wise to me.




Solomon disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17

" And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away,
nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. "




Keesha said:


> Plus the story doesn’t really answer anything. Lol




It should tell you plenty.   Even those like Solomon whom God blesses 
should retain the "fear of the Lord"  to remain in God's good graces.
Because there is one thing God requires above all else = obedience.

.


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

adviceseeker said:


> Why should we fear our creator? Do you have children? Just as children need to fear their parents sometimes, so we, the children of our maker must fear him. A whole lot of evil that humans inflict on each other would decrease greatly if we had a healthy dose of fear instilled in us towards our creator.


Clearly I disagree also. I don’t think children should fear their parents either. Love & respect them yes. 
Fear is a negative emotion and in every religion , one of the main lessons is FEAR NOT!


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## Gary O' (Jul 30, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Clearly I disagree also. I don’t think children should fear their parents either. Love & respect them yes.
> Fear is a negative emotion and in every religion , one of the main lessons is FEAR NOT!



the term 'fear' when applied to The Creator is not the fear we've come to know


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> the term 'fear' when applied to The Creator is not the fear we've come to know



Ok! I only know ‘one’ type of fear and the only positive thing about it is that it can used as a warning sign. All other characteristics of the word are , otherwise, negative.


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## Gary O' (Jul 30, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok! I only know ‘one’ type of fear and the only positive thing about it is that it can used as a warning sign. All other characteristics of the word are , otherwise, negative.



Without putting too many words here, I suggest studying the meaning of servile fear as opposed to filial fear


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Without putting too many words here, I suggest studying the meaning of servile fear as opposed to filial fear



Ok. Thank you. I will.


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## Keesha (Jul 30, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Solomon disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17
> 
> " And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away,
> nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. "
> ...


Thank you.


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## Gary O' (Jul 30, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Solomon disobeyed Deuteronomy 17:17
> 
> " And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away,
> nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. "
> ...



I really don't wish to get into this, but, ya gotta know, we, of ourselves, cannot obey...much as we'd like to

Jesus, giving his life....some don't realize this....it was His eternal life...separation (for the first time) from The Father...that covers our 'filthy rags' of our supposed 'obedience' 

Right about here, thinking about this, brings me down...not sad down, but self sufficiency down

It's a study in depth
Life changing depth


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## Camper6 (Jul 31, 2018)

From Thomas Gray's poem, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College (1742): "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."


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## Lara (Jul 31, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> the term 'fear' when applied to The Creator is not the fear we've come to know...without putting too many words here, I suggest studying the meaning of servile fear as opposed to filial fear


Exactly Gary O'. Thank you. That's what I was trying to explain in my posts #39 and #40.  But was unaware of the Catholic terminology for the different meanings of fear. I'm not Catholic so I missed Luther's descriptive terms: servile fear and filial fear. I certainly understand the difference and agree with this.

`


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## Sunny (Jul 31, 2018)

"]Just as children need to fear their parents sometimes, so we, the  children of our maker must fear him. A whole lot of evil that humans  inflict on each other would decrease greatly if we had a healthy dose of  fear instilled in us towards our creator."

Huh?  Who says children need to fear their parents?  A lot of the cruelty we see in this world stems from exactly this way of thinking.


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 31, 2018)

IMO the fear of God refers to the fearful anticipation/expectation of judgment.

_"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

"All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."_


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## Keesha (Jul 31, 2018)

But I don’t fear the judgement of God. I’ve died many times and been brought back to life so feel like I’ve already  met my maker and there was no judgement. In fact, that’s what was so wonderful because it was an ‘all loving, unconditional love’ I felt each and every time without any judgement, so why should I fear God after that?
Does fearing God make me a better person?
Does it make me a bad person to not fear God?

I read both definitions and still feel the same way.


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 31, 2018)

Keesha said:


> But I don’t fear the judgement of God. I’ve died many times and been brought back to life so feel like I’ve already met my maker and there was no judgement. In fact, that’s what was so wonderful because it was an ‘all loving, unconditional love’ I felt each and every time without any judgement, so why should I fear God after that?
> Does fearing God make me a better person?
> Does it make me a bad person to not fear God?
> 
> I read both definitions and still feel the same way.



I suppose that if you have never done anything wrong or anything to be ashamed of then you would have no reason to fear anyone's judgment including God's.

In my case, it may be a real nailbiter LOL!!!


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## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I suppose that if you have never done anything wrong or anything to be ashamed of then you would have no reason to fear anyone's judgment including God's.
> 
> In my case, it may be a real nailbiter LOL!!!



I'm leaning heavily on the forgiveness clause


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 31, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> I'm leaning heavily on the forgiveness clause



If I get there first I'll put in a good word for you!!!


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## Keesha (Jul 31, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I suppose that if you have never done anything wrong or anything to be ashamed of then you would have no reason to fear anyone's judgment including God's.
> 
> In my case, it may be a real nailbiter LOL!!!


Oh heck no. I’ve done plenty wrong. 
I just have the belief that my God is a forgiving one. 

Everything I’ve read and experienced leads me to this belief. 
In my experience in studying religion and spirituality, one of the main teachings have been about forgiveness. 
How can we have an all loving  God who doesn’t forgive us?

The very fact that God forgives us is what I found so comforting.
When I was growing up fear was used as a manipulating tool and it worked very successfully. 
Fear breeds guilt and a guilty soul is a horrible thing to live with. It can do much harm to a person’s overall well being. 

In all the times I’ve turned to religion or spiritual teachings it has been to relieve myself of guilt and since most of the teachings state that with God we are given a clean slate to start with each and everyday. That was MY salvation.


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## Sunny (Jul 31, 2018)

The portrayal of God as a vengeful tyrant is a primitive one, putting human characteristics into whatever is controlling the universe. Think about it; there are more stars in the universe than grains of sand
on all the beaches of the world. And we inhabit a tiny speck, revolving around one of those grains of sand. Can we really believe that there is someone sitting up there in judgement of all our follies and foibles?
Like he/she/it has nothing better to do than concentrate on us, because we are so important? This is the endless imagination of the human mind at work, nothing more.

Getting back to the "fear" factor, we raised our three children not with fear, but with love. The last thing I would have wanted would have been for them to fear me. They turned out absolutely fine; they are
kind, responsible people, who are excellent parents to their own children.  Fear is not necessary; it is just the cruelty of one generation seeping down to another.


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## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2018)

Sunny said:


> This is the endless imagination of the human mind at work, nothing more.



I used to think the same, for a very long time

Then got down to it, studying the prophecies, Daniel, and Revelation

Too precise

No way a conjured fable to keep folks in line

There's no argument here...if you wish to delve


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## hearlady (Jul 31, 2018)

I would advise the 15 yr old to spend time with the older generation. 
What regrets do they have, what would they do over? 

What have they learned that made them wiser? What are they most proud of and why do they do things differently, think differently than they did at 15?

If I was one of the older and wiser than I would tell them to create their own regrets. Do things with the information they have at this very time. 

Make mistakes and learn from them. 
Fail and try again.
Learn all that they can, seek knowledge.

Live the life you were given and do the very best you can.

Only then can you become wiser.


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## Keesha (Jul 31, 2018)

hearlady said:


> I would advise the 15 yr old to spend time with the older generation.
> What regrets do they have, what would they do over?
> 
> What have they learned that made them wiser? What are they most proud of and why do they do things differently, think differently than they did at 15?
> ...



Exactly. Learn from your mistakes. 
What was wrong at one time isn’t any more, like the black woman who sat at the front of a bus. Heaven forbid. 
I think it’s very possible for humans to learn wisdom without the use of religion.


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## Gary O' (Jul 31, 2018)

hearlady said:


> I would advise the 15 yr old to spend time with the older generation.
> What regrets do they have, what would they do over?
> 
> What have they learned that made them wiser? What are they most proud of and why do they do things differently, think differently than they did at 15?
> ...



I so like this post


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2018)

Me too.


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## StarSong (Aug 1, 2018)

hearlady said:


> I would advise the 15 yr old to spend time with the older generation.
> What regrets do they have, what would they do over?
> 
> What have they learned that made them wiser? What are they most proud of and why do they do things differently, think differently than they did at 15?
> ...



Good advice.  Only problem is that 99.99% of adolescents are not particularly interested in older people's philosophies.  Amusing life stories, yes.  But what made us older and wiser and what that wisdom is?  Nope.  And they'd likely not be able to understand the advice anyway.  We all travel our own paths and learn our lessons along the way. If it were otherwise every generation wouldn't continue to engage in wars.   

It's impossible to put an old head on young shoulders.     

For the record, I don't think God is nearly as judgmental or micro managing as most religions make Him out to be.


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## Lara (Aug 1, 2018)

StarSong said:


> ...I don't think God is nearly as judgmental or micro managing as most religions make Him out to be.


I agree with you StarSong. In fact, according to Christian belief, God's not at all micro managing. He created us with the ability to make our own choices as to our life path. We can choose to trust God and obey His words...OR...we can choose to do it all our own way and leave God and or Jesus out of the picture completely. It's totally up to the individual.

Regarding Judgement Day: The Bible gives a lot of details of what happens to us right after death and specific details about Judgement Day. There will be two separate judgements seats. The "Great White Throne" for non-believers, and the "judgement seat of Christ" for believers. Jesus will be the judge for both and the two seats will be judged with different standards, which are detailed below in the links if you're curious.

The second to the last paragraph in the link summarizes how the two judgement seats will be judged but I recommend you read from the beginning to get the full understanding of it. Once we're dead there is no second chance to change anything...

What will Judgement Day be like? https://www.gotquestions.org/final-judgment.html

What happens after we die (before Judgement Day)? I have a link for that too that I can post if anyone is interested, but I didn't want to get into too much in one post.


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## Sunny (Aug 1, 2018)

The God who sits in judgement and punishes people for their "sins" while on earth is clearly created in man's image.


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## StarSong (Aug 1, 2018)

Sunny said:


> The God who sits in judgement and punishes people for their "sins" while on earth is clearly created in man's image.



I agree.


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## Lara (Aug 1, 2018)

Sunny said:


> The God who sits in judgement and punishes people for their "sins" while on earth is clearly created in man's image.


1. God does not punish people while on earth for their sins. Man punishes himself with natural consequences for what he has done. Sometimes, however, good people suffer but it's not a punishment from God. The punishment is from Satan. Could God stop Satan? Yes, of course, but sometimes there are a hundred+ reasons in the Bible why he doesn't, none of which are punishment. All of which are for the ultimate perfect plan for greater good. 

2. God is not created. God is the Creator.

3. God is not created in man's image. Scripture states that "God created man in His image" ...not the other way around.


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## Shalimar (Aug 1, 2018)

As  I was dying, I was drawn to the shimmering light, and the sound of my grandmother’s voice. She was singing to me in that peerless Welsh soprano. As I floated closer, I could see her, surrounded by the pets who were waiting for me to journey to join them. I eagerly reached out toward the glow, only to be stopped by a clear voice (genderless,) inside my mind, which told me I 

still had tasks to complete, and asked me if I would make the sacrifice, embrace the pain,  and return to complete them. I could hear/feel the unconditional love and compassion radiating from this invisible being, I knew that I could survive whatever pain awaited me in the world. Weeping, I said goodbye to my grandmother and the pets, and floated back toward my body, the 

last thing I recall was the purring of my favourite cat, long gone from this world. He followed me to the edge of the dark, then my gramma called him back. Zing, an electrical current ran through my mind,  and I was back in my  body.  Oddly enough for a person with CPTSD, all sense of suicidality has been absent since that day. I believe this to be a gift from the Divine Feminine face of the Creator. I am grateful for my miracle.


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## KingsX (Aug 1, 2018)

Lara said:


> God does not punish people while on earth for their sins.




Apparently you have never read the Old Testament.

.


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## Lara (Aug 1, 2018)

KingsX said:


> Apparently you have never read the Old Testament.


I have read not only the Old Testament...but then I went on to read the New Testament which changed everything regarding sins, punishment, and forgiveness. When Jesus was born and then suffered on the cross for our sins in the New Testament, He saved us. Thus, our "Savior". 

It's now the New Covenant, so that believers can be forgiven, can now be counted worthy to enter the kingdom of God,  and not be punished for their sins on earth but rather judged for their deeds on earth and rewarded, not punished. 

"Believers will also be judged, at a different judgment called the “judgment seat of Christ” (Romans 14:10), but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the Book of Life, we will be rewarded, not punished, according to our deeds."


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## StarSong (Aug 1, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> As  I was dying, I was drawn to the shimmering light, and the sound of my grandmother’s voice. She was singing to me in that peerless Welsh soprano. As I floated closer, I could see her, surrounded by the pets who were waiting for me to journey to join them. I eagerly reached out toward the glow, only to be stopped by a clear voice (genderless,) inside my mind, which told me I
> 
> still had tasks to complete, and asked me if I would make the sacrifice, embrace the pain,  and return to complete them. I could hear/feel the unconditional love and compassion radiating from this invisible being, I knew that I could survive whatever pain awaited me in the world. Weeping, I said goodbye to my grandmother and the pets, and floated back toward my body, the
> 
> last thing I recall was the purring of my favourite cat, long gone from this world. He followed me to the edge of the dark, then my gramma called him back. Zing, an electrical current ran through my mind,  and I was back in my  body.  Oddly enough for a person with CPTSD, all sense of suicidality has been absent since that day. I believe this to be a gift from the Divine Feminine face of the Creator. I am grateful for my miracle.



What an extraordinary miracle and deeply personal gift to you from our Creator, Shali.  Thank you for sharing it with us.  My experience of our Creator is likewise one of pure love, acceptance and compassion.  Some find their spirituality through organized religions of various sects, some through meditation, and some through other means.  

I believe that all roads lead home.


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## KingsX (Aug 1, 2018)

Lara said:


> I have not only read the Old Testament...but then I went on to read the New Testament which changed everything regarding sins, punishment, and forgiveness. When Jesus was born and then suffered on the cross for our sins in the New Testament, that was a New Covenant, so that believers could be forgiven and not be punished for their sins on earth





The OT and NT are two parts of one book... they work together.  

Jesus is the incarnation of the God of the OT. That means Jesus created the OT laws and punishments.  

Jesus kept His law perfectly. As Jesus said Himself,  He came NOT to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.  Matthew 5:17-18.
Both the OT and NT tells us that God wants His laws written in the hearts of His people. Jeremiah 31:32-34 is repeated
in Hebrews chapters 8 and 10.  Once the laws of God are written in the minds and hearts of God's people... their past
sins are forgiven.  But Hebrews 10 gives us a warning...  "If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the 
knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire 
that will consume all adversaries."


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## Shalimar (Aug 1, 2018)

StarSong said:


> What an extraordinary miracle and deeply personal gift to you from our Creator, Shali.  Thank you for sharing it with us.  My experience of our Creator is likewise one of pure love, acceptance and compassion.  Some find their spirituality through organized religions of various sects, some through meditation, and some through other means.
> 
> I believe that all roads lead home.


Qft. If I have gained any wisdom from that experience, it lies in the knowledge that sometimes, acceptance and gratitude are all that is required of us as we stumble along an often bewildering path. Perhaps that is Faith?


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## Keesha (Aug 1, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> As  I was dying, I was drawn to the shimmering light, and the sound of my grandmother’s voice. She was singing to me in that peerless Welsh soprano. As I floated closer, I could see her, surrounded by the pets who were waiting for me to journey to join them. I eagerly reached out toward the glow, only to be stopped by a clear voice (genderless,) inside my mind, which told me I
> 
> still had tasks to complete, and asked me if I would make the sacrifice, embrace the pain,  and return to complete them. I could hear/feel the unconditional love and compassion radiating from this invisible being, I knew that I could survive whatever pain awaited me in the world. Weeping, I said goodbye to my grandmother and the pets, and floated back toward my body, the
> 
> last thing I recall was the purring of my favourite cat, long gone from this world. He followed me to the edge of the dark, then my gramma called him back. Zing, an electrical current ran through my mind,  and I was back in my  body.  Oddly enough for a person with CPTSD, all sense of suicidality has been absent since that day. I believe this to be a gift from the Divine Feminine face of the Creator. I am grateful for my miracle.



Your near death experience is like my near death experiences and I’ve had over half a dozen of them. 
My breathing stopped, my heart stopped, my ego faded away but my conscious awareness was more accute than ever. 
In fact the experiences were far more real than any other experiences I’ve ever had in this lifetime. There is an undeniable understanding that we are all connected to everyone and everything and always have been and always will be, forever.
 ( eternally) Past relatives and pets are there to greet us and there is a white light that’s is ‘all loving’ and doesn’t judge us. 
These are the most REAL, loving experiences I’ve ever had in my entire life and I’ll never question where I’m going when I die ever again. 

Most humans that have had these types of experiences share the same type of information yet there are always people (disbelievers) who have never experienced anything like this that will angrily state that it’s all BS. Some people claim that it’s merely the brain shutting down and malfunctioning. 

There aren’t words in the human vocabulary to explain this type of phenomenon, except miraculous.
It definitely has made me realize that there is far more I don’t know about life and our universe than I do and I’m ok with that.

See Shalimar; I always KNEW we shared something special.    
Namaste:heart:


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## StarSong (Aug 1, 2018)

KingsX said:


> The OT and NT are two parts of one book... they work together.
> 
> Jesus is the incarnation of the God of the OT. That means Jesus created the OT laws and punishments.
> 
> ...



I'm sincerely and respectfully happy that the OT and NT bring you joy and comfort, KingsX and would never think of discounting or attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs.  

We each find our own way to a relationship with our Creator.  As long as those avenues don't physically or emotionally injure others, humans should find a way to encourage, respect and tolerate others' perceptions and pathways to that relationship.


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## Shalimar (Aug 1, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Your near death experience is like my near death experiences and I’ve had over half a dozen of them.
> My breathing stopped, my heart stopped, my ego faded away but my conscious awareness was more accute than ever.
> In fact the experiences were far more real than any other experiences I’ve ever had in this life. There is an undeniable understanding that we are all connected to everyone and everything and always have been and always will be, forever.
> ( eternally) Past relatives and pets are there to greet us and there is a white light that’s is ‘all loving’ and doesn’t judge us.
> ...


Namaste to you also, sister-survivor. It is almost beatific to realise  that often it is the most broken and despairing of us who are touched by the limitless Grace of the Divine Pattern. Who am I not to accept a Love which surpasses all understanding? If such a Being finds me worthy, then  it must be so, truly, we are Children of the Light. Blessings to all.


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## Keesha (Aug 1, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I'm sincerely and respectfully happy that the OT and NT bring you joy and comfort, KingsX and would never think of discounting or attempting to dissuade you from your beliefs.
> 
> We each find our own way to a relationship with our Creator.  As long as those avenues don't physically or emotionally injure others, humans should find a way to encourage, respect and tolerate others' perceptions and pathways to that relationship.




YES! Post of the year. 
Exactly ! We should all respect each other’s right to find our own way of having a relationship with our creator, however different they may be as long as we aren’t hurting ourself or others. 
Beautifully written Starsong.


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## Keesha (Aug 1, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Namaste to you also, sister-survivor. It is almost beatific to realise  that often it is the most broken and despairing of us who are touched by the limitless Grace of the Divine Pattern. Who am I not to accept a Love which surpasses all understanding? If such a Being finds me worthy, then  it must be so, truly, we are Children of the Light. Blessings to all.



All shucks. Major goosebumps.
Thank you Shali :love_heart:


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## Lara (Aug 1, 2018)

KingsX, I think we're pretty much on the same page but I never said the NT replaced the OT. Yes, they work together of course. The Bible, OT and NT, is a progression of God's revelation of Himself to us through historical events and his relationships with people throughout history. God doesn't change but forgiveness entered into the picture in the New Testament for those who believe in the sacrifice that His Son made for us in order to save us from eternal punishment for our sins.

"Because of God’s righteous and holy character, all sin—past, present, and future—must be judged. Yet God in His infinite love provided a payment for sin and a way of reconciliation so that sinful man can escape His wrath. We see this wonderful truth in verses like 1 John 4:10: “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 

Only envisioned in the Old Testament, the ultimate expression of God’s love, the sending of His Son Jesus Christ, is revealed in all its glory in the New Testament. Both the Old and the New Testaments were given “to make us wise unto salvation” (2 Timothy 3:15)."


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## Sunny (Aug 1, 2018)

> 1. God does not punish people while on earth for their sins. Man  punishes himself with natural consequences for what he has done.  Sometimes, however, good people suffer but it's not a punishment from  God. The punishment is from Satan. Could God stop Satan? Yes, of course,  but sometimes there are a hundred+ reasons in the Bible why he doesn't,  none of which are punishment. All of which are for the ultimate perfect  plan for greater good.
> 
> 2. God is not created. God is the Creator.
> 
> 3. God is not created in man's image. Scripture states that "God created man in His image" ...not the other way around.



Lara, in order to believe that, you have to believe in the divine origin of the Bible.  Not all of us do.  I believe that it is a book full of fascinating stories, but just a book, written by humans. Attaching the name "God" to all the stuff in both testaments does not prove anything at all.  I do not believe anything simply because other people have told me to believe it. 

I am not ignorant about the Bible and its teachings; I grew up in a religious home and spent many hours studying, reading, and thinking about all this. And my human common sense tells me that it was all
conceived and written by other people.  So if it says that some day, the God depicted in that book is going to punish me for my "sins," that sounds to me like a lot of ancient nonsense, full of boogey-man
stories designed to scare people into behaving themselves.

No one yet has been there and come back to tell us what happens. So, with all due respect, my opinion is just as valid as yours.

We should do good on this earth, be kind to other people, animals, and the planet, just because. Not because we are afraid of a tyrant out there punishing us after death.


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## Lara (Aug 1, 2018)

No worries. I only post for the purpose of biblical clarity, not for changing your opinion or anyone else's. 

You were created with an ability to choose what you want to believe. 

When my thoughts are unwanted then there's no more to say *handshake*


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