# Help me please! America, freedom of speech, is it still real?



## halalu (Feb 25, 2015)

Help me please; I recently made comments about sex acts between two consenting adults is their business. (Fifty Shades of Gray) movie and books led to the comment I made. I also said that some races  or people consider certain sex acts normal. Those comments caused some females to be insulted and very cruel. One of them said that I should not be allowed to communicate about sex in public. What happened to freedom of speech and everyone being entitled to their own opinion?


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## rkunsaw (Feb 25, 2015)

Unfortunately there are some  who think freedom of speech only applies if your opinion is the same as theirs. Pay them no heed.


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## hollydolly (Feb 25, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Unfortunately there are some  who think freedom of speech only applies if your opinion is the same as theirs. Pay them no heed.



Unfortunate but true...


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## halalu (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks! I hit a sore spot. It is a thin line between domestic violence being performed in sex acts and if a person, male or female is consenting or not fighting back when someone makes a comment the pent up anger they have toward their mate is taken out on the outsider who dares to say something.


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## halalu (Feb 25, 2015)

Security is not love. Or is it?


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## AZ Jim (Feb 25, 2015)

Freedom to say what you want is still alive.  People who use that freedom in such a way as to garner scorn need to understand that is the price of saying what we choose to say, we need to remember others enjoy that same freedom.  Bottom line, say what you want but don't attempt to do it with impunity.  I doesn't work like that.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 25, 2015)

People are always free to say what they want...  Freedom of speech does not mean that people have to agree with what you say..  Your right is NOT taken because someone voices disagreement.   If you want to voice an opinion... you better be willing to hear what others think too.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 25, 2015)

I can walk up to a huge man on the street and say "hey Mac, whose the fat ugly broad you're with".  The bloody nose  is his way of  expressing his opinion of that.


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## Bullie76 (Feb 25, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> People are always free to say what they want...  Freedom of speech does not mean that people have to agree with what you say..  Your right is NOT taken because someone voices disagreement.   If you want to voice an opinion... you better be willing to hear what others think too.



Agree. Freedom of speech is a two way street.


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## DoItMyself (Feb 25, 2015)

halalu said:


> Help me please; I recently made comments about sex acts between two consenting adults is their business. (Fifty Shades of Gray) movie and books led to the comment I made. I also said that some races  or people consider certain sex acts normal. Those comments caused some females to be insulted and very cruel. One of them said that I should not be allowed to communicate about sex in public. What happened to freedom of speech and everyone being entitled to their own opinion?



I assume that was on a discussion forum?

There is no freedom of speech on a discussion forum.  We're allowed in here at pleasure of the ownership and moderators-if we post something that they decide is inappropriate they have the right to censor us or remove our posting privileges.  It's much like coming over to your house-if I'm a guest we can certainly have a discussion, but if you find me rude or I make remarks that you deem inappropriate you can certainly order me to shut up or ask me to leave.

 Rights are also a two way street-while I have the right to say almost anything I want (I can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater), other people also have the right to disagree with me, sometimes in a way that I may find objectionable.  I have to use my freedom of speech with a measure of common sense.

Even if your comments were not made in a private discussion forum, it sounds like you were in no way censored, just disagreed with.  Quite frankly, there are a few subjects that I try to stay away from-religion, sex and politics.  Everyone has their opinion, and with some people those subjects can be extremely hot button issues.  I find the world is a much more pleasant place if I avoid those discussions.


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## GeneMO (Feb 25, 2015)

Political correctness has taken a lot of our freedom of speech away.

Example:   Lets say you employee no one.  You dont approve anyones pay raise.   You do not determine if someone has a job or not.   And you are not a landlord renting a house.

Can you say, " I just dont care for black people",   " I dont care what they do in their bedroom, but I personally can't stand gay people",  " I am all for paying everyone equal, if they do the same job, but women just can't cut it in this profession".

Try it sometime and see if there is freedom of speech.

Gene


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## AprilT (Feb 25, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> Political correctness has taken a lot of our freedom of speech away.
> 
> Example:   Lets say you employee no one.  You dont approve anyones pay raise.   You do not determine if someone has a job or not.   And you are not a landlord renting a house.
> 
> ...



You just did.


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## Butterfly (Feb 25, 2015)

IMHO, you have the freedom to express your opinion, but then, so does the other guy.  SO, if you are expressing a controversial opinion, or any opinion for that matter, you have to be prepared for the next guy to express his, too.  I think common sense should direct what we say to whom, and when, and where, if we don't want to deal with someone else's adverse reaction.


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## tnthomas (Feb 25, 2015)

AZ Jim said:
			
		

> Freedom to say what you want is still alive.  People who use that  freedom in such a way as to garner scorn need to understand that is the  price of saying what we choose to say, we need to remember others enjoy  that same freedom.  Bottom line, say what you want but don't attempt to  do it with impunity.  I doesn't work like that.



+1, true story.




DoItMyself said:


> I assume that was on a discussion forum?
> There is no freedom of speech on a discussion forum.  We're allowed in here at pleasure of the ownership and moderators-if we post something that they decide is inappropriate they have the right to censor us or remove our posting privileges.  It's much like coming over to your house-if I'm a guest we can certainly have a discussion, but if you find me rude or I make remarks that you deem inappropriate you can certainly order me to shut up or ask me to leave.



Many people don't understand this.


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## GeneMO (Feb 25, 2015)

AprilT said:


> You just did.



Yes, on this forum.   But lets say you want to run for political office.  Lets say you are a news anchor.   People in certain positions have to hide their true feelings in order to Keep a job, get a job, etc.   But once in awhile it slips out, and then your career is over, or whatever.

And I was strictly playing devils advocate.  I like you just fine AprilT.   

But the point is, we have laws in the country against discrimination in the workplace, hiring, housing, education everything.   But should people not be free to be racists?   If it doesn't involve any of the discrimination criteria?

We have a black section in our town.  I will 100% guarantee that there are some black people over there who do not want me over there.  Although I have never figured out the "honkie" thing they use to call us.  Cracker I get.

It works both ways.

Gene


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## AprilT (Feb 25, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> Yes, on this forum.   But lets say you want to run for political office.  Lets say you are a news anchor.   People in certain positions have to hide their true feelings in order to Keep a job, get a job, etc.   But once in awhile it slips out, and then your career is over, or whatever.
> 
> And I was strictly playing devils advocate.  I like you just fine AprilT.
> 
> ...



Might it be that there are many that find those views that some express polarizing, ignorant, without justification in most instances and prefer to not have those individuals in leadership over them in one way or another.  As far as news people and others, they are entitled to feel as they do but it is usually part of their job to remain neutral especially as a representative of those they represent, well for the most part that is some people are just too stupid to keep their ignorant views to themselves at any cost.

I don't mean a view such as I don't like black people and leave it at that, though it's more than likely a problem when you press for a reason, because that's going to fall on whatever stereotype they paint all people with using one brush, one shade.  I much rather know if someone doesn't like me based on my color, size, geographical birth, etc, I then know what I'm dealing with and how to handle them to suit my needs if I have a need for them at all.  

There are parts of town where some white people don't want some white people and so it goes, not sure what that proves.
I live in a predominantly white area, city, county, some people would much rather not have to lay an eye on my kind if given a choice, but, that's not all the people.  So what, I didn't realize just how segregated some areas of this town was till I moved here, I was the only black person I saw around my neighborhood most any given day, I see a couple more here and there more and more over the past year, but, I'm kind of use to it living around your species as a lone wolf, a good portion of my life, (kidding about species ref.,) it doesn't bother me much until someone walks up to me as has happened a time or two and they down, slides over and says, "We don't mind if black people join our group, we're fine with you being here." WTF.  This has been said to me completely out of the blue with no reason or cause at least a couple of times at a couple of events, not to mention some other less than pleasant encounters in this town, that I don't dwell on but have had a very lasting impression and opened my eyes quite a bit.  I know most people aren't like that, most people are better than that and show it regularly in all kinds of ways.


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## DoItMyself (Feb 25, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> But lets say you want to run for political office.
> 
> Gene



I understand what you are saying, however, as a politician, I also know the value of expressing your views honestly and up front.  If we had more politicians that were flat out honest about their views, no matter what those views were, we'd be a lot better off.

One of the things that I found interesting in your post was that you quickly brought race into it.  Anyone is indeed free to dislike anyone else for any reason that they choose.  But under that same freedom, I'm allowed not to do business with them because I don't care for their views on race, or gender preference, or any other reason.  And I'm also within my rights not to invite them into my home for dinner, and as a politician, if they bring up those views, I'm within my rights to ask them to leave and take their views with them.

Bottom line is that while we all have some views that others may disagree with, it doesn't mean we have to proudly wear them on our chest and wave them in front of the very people who would be insulted and hurt by those views.  A decent person knows when to speak, and also knows when to hold their tongue.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 25, 2015)

Anyone who believes that the U.S. is the Land of Free Speech needs to get out a bit more ...


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2015)

My opinion is that people don't understand what freedom of speech means.

Having a right to free speech means that one can voice an opinion about the most important person in the land, in print or out loud in a public place without risking a charge of treason or similar.

Not having any right to free speech means that one dares not voice an opinion of the most important person in the land, even in private amongst friends, for fear of a visit from the secret police, after which one disappears into some distant gulag or unmarked grave.

Freedom of speech does not confer licence to defame, slander or libel a person(s), nor does it allow racial vilification or incitement to violence to a person or racial/ethnic group. It does not allow you to deceive people and fleece them of their money by telling lies or other forms of misrepresentation. As in all things, freedom is not limitless.

Freedom of speech does not entitle you to abuse someone on public transport because you don't like the colour of their skin or the way they dress. Nor does it allow you to stalk someone along the street, ridiculing them or verbally harassing them. Citizens have a right to be protected from this kind of behaviour.

To understand how this freedom works, we must imagine ourselves on the delivery and the receiving end of the speech. I think the "_Do unto others_..." principle should be applied. If it is very important that we speak out, then we should do it with equal measures of courage and respect.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 25, 2015)

DoItMyself said:


> I assume that was on a discussion forum?
> 
> There is no freedom of speech on a discussion forum.  We're allowed in here at pleasure of the ownership and moderators-if we post something that they decide is inappropriate they have the right to censor us or remove our posting privileges.  It's much like coming over to your house-if I'm a guest we can certainly have a discussion, but if you find me rude or I make remarks that you deem inappropriate you can certainly order me to shut up or ask me to leave.
> 
> ...



This is true.  When you are in a private sector of some sort, you are expected to follow rules.  I agree, because in my home, or on a forum I may own, I can call the shots.  I don't know exactly the law on this, but there is one, evidently.  I think respect comes into it.  For example, someone has built, payed for, a home, or a forum lets say.  It is their's and I believe in giving respect, where it is due.  So if you know the rules, and you blatantly go against the rules of that privately owned home or forum, expect to be asked to leave.  Freedom of speech isn't about going into some place that has rules and breaking them, it's about speaking what's on your mind in a public area, isn't it?


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## Denise1952 (Feb 25, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> My opinion is that people don't understand what freedom of speech means.
> 
> Having a right to free speech means that one can voice an opinion about the most important person in the land, in print or out loud in a public place without risking a charge of treason or similar.
> 
> ...



Excellent Dame, I so agree, you said this so well.  I have not understood exactly what free speech is, and in not understanding, or caring to, I can sort of make it up for myself, what it means.  I haven't done that, mainly because that respect thing comes into it for me.  I respect this person's opinion, their right to it, so I do not want to "do unto them" because sometimes, what goes around does come around.  And for another thing, I am never that sure I'm right.  I like to express my opinion with other folks around me that I know may disagree, but I don't want to attack their opinion, I just want to ask them to consider mine.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 26, 2015)

In Thailand which is laid back and happy you are not allowed to make fun or say anything negative about the monarchy. If you do you could be jailed for up to 15 years. Everyone professes to adore the king. But do they?

So they don't have free speech.


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## ClassicRockr (Feb 26, 2015)

IMO, some folks want "Freedom Of Speech" the same way as they want to yell "Discrimination"..........to try and get what they want! 

We do have "Freedom Of Speech", but only to an extent. A person can say whatever they want to a Judge in a court of law, but you may get what you don't want. A person can say whatever they want to a law enforcement officer, but you may end up in handcuffs and jail. Within "Freedom of Speech", people can cuss/swear at others and call them names, but that can end up with someone getting seriously hurt or killed. 

We really don't have "Freedom of Speech" on this forum and it's told to all of us in the Forum rules........and that's fine with me. 

Actually, if I want to express a "somewhat" more "Freedom of Speech", I will put it in a PM, not in a forum thread! And, I don't get real nasty about what I say either. 

We all have our opinions on a lot of different topics, but as* older/more experienced ADULTS*, we *SHOULD* be able to handle ourselves like that. Again, IMO.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 26, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> In Thailand which is laid back and happy you are not allowed to make fun or say anything negative about the monarchy. If you do you could be jailed for up to 15 years. Everyone professes to adore the king. But do they?
> 
> So they don't have free speech.



I sometimes wonder if it was such a hot idea.  We should have a thread just on that, good one I'd bet


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## SifuPhil (Feb 26, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> ... We all have our opinions on a lot of different topics, but as* older/more experienced ADULTS*, we *SHOULD* be able to handle ourselves like that. Again, IMO.



Which is somewhat sad, because all that says is that we've become successfully programmed ... 

Good post. 

And even if it wasn't, I wouldn't say so.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 26, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Which is somewhat sad, because all that says is that we've become successfully programmed ...
> 
> Good post.
> 
> And even if it wasn't, I wouldn't say so.


Hey Mister Squat and Can't Get Up!  Where's that resume, I can't wait for my lawn to be mowed forever!! LOL!!  I hope you have your own Concubine as all I have is a weedeater!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 26, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Hey Mister Squat and Can't Get Up!  Where's that resume, I can't wait for my lawn to be mowed forever!! LOL!!  I hope you have your own Concubine as all I have is a weedeater!



Oh, that's truly troubling - weedeaters and concubines are a bad mix - trust me.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 26, 2015)

FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ALIVE AND WELL IN AMERICA !!!
THANK-GOD

PEOPLE  MAY NOT APPROVE OF WHAT YOU SAY, THEY MIGHT HATE IT, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY IT.

NOT SO MUCH OVER HERE IN THE UK

DEACONIAN LIBEL LAWS THAT BRING PEOPLE FROM ALLOVER  THE WORLD

 TO TRY TO HAVE THEIR  CASES TRIED IN THE UK, BECAUSE THEY CAN GET SUCH 

A GOOD DEAL ON ANTI- LIBEL CASES

SO PROUD OF SO MANY THINGS WE HAVE IN AMERICA.. 

WE'RE NOT PERFECT BUT WE ARE PRETTY GREAT !!!

AND DON'T FOR ONE MINUTE TAKE ANY OF OUR WODERFUL FREEDOMS FOR GRANTED...

AMERICANS HAVE DIED FOR US TO HAVE OUR FREEDOMS!!!


(oh no, the English are trotting on their way over to see me,  to give me a good talking to no doubt, 
about freedom of speech. 
Whenever I disagree...  they usually tell me to go back to where I've come from LOL)

Love them anyway !


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## Denise1952 (Feb 26, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Oh, that's truly troubling - weedeaters and concubines are a bad mix - trust me.



I'll jus take your word, since I'm afraid you would 'splain it if I asked


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## AZ Jim (Feb 26, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ALIVE AND WELL IN AMERICA !!!
> THANK-GOD
> 
> PEOPLE  MAY NOT APPROVE OF WHAT YOU SAY, THEY MIGHT HATE IT, BUT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY IT.
> ...



I bet you are loved there as well, but you'll always have a place to come home to.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 27, 2015)

Thank-you !


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## Bee (Feb 27, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> (oh no, the English are trotting on their way over to see me,  to give me a good talking to no doubt,
> about freedom of speech.
> Whenever I disagree...  they usually tell me to go back to where I've come from LOL)
> !




Knock knock............


Elyzabeth I have lived in 2 other countries besides my own England but the one thing I have never done is to compare my host country with England or criticize my host country, for me to have done so I would have considered rude....ignorant.....and......insensitive...............and in case you are wondering I was nationalised in both of those countries but it still didn't give me cart blanche to criticize them or compare them.


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## Elyzabeth (Feb 27, 2015)

OMG

What a total lack of a sense of humour !

 It is true however, that as an American, we are taught to hold our Government to account, 

 whereas in the UK,  criticism of the Government is seen  as a smear upon  the government, and considered to be  very rude..????


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## Bee (Feb 27, 2015)




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## rporter610 (Feb 27, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> My opinion is that people don't understand what freedom of speech means.
> 
> Having a right to free speech means that one can voice an opinion about the most important person in the land, in print or out loud in a public place without risking a charge of treason or similar.
> 
> ...



Well and thoughtfully put, Dame Warrigal.  I have never understood why some people think that "freedom of speech" means freedom to express bigotry, hatred, intolerance, or approval of violence against others.  We are all on this earth together.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 27, 2015)

I am free to criticize the UK government and do so often.  And I'm American and became a naturalised UK citizen in 2007.  I can vote in the UK so why wouldn't I have a right to criticize the government?  Maybe it's different in England, but no one has told me to go back where I came from.  And there are plenty of English who live here in Scotland.


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## hollydolly (Feb 27, 2015)

It's not different in England Annie...it's the same wherever you go...people are people , rude folks are wherever anyone is unfortunate to encounter them.

I had a fellow Scotsman actually call me a ' traitor ' he spat it out with venom  ...my crime was to be living in England and not my home country...

...and incidentally .....Elyzabeth it's not considered *rude* to criticise the government in the Uk....Good grief   it's almost a national Pastime


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## Ameriscot (Feb 27, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> It's not different in England Annie...it's the same wherever you go...people are people , rude folks are wherever anyone is unfortunate to encounter them.
> 
> I had a fellow Scotsman actually call me a ' traitor ' he spat it out with venom  ...my crime was to be living in England and not my home country...
> 
> ...and incidentally .....Elyzabeth it's not considered *rude* to criticise the government in the Uk....Good grief   it's almost a national Pastime



I didn't think it would be different, although of all the American expats I've known, the one's who were the least happy were the ones who lived in or around London.  The happiest were those in Scotland. Not a scientific sampling though.  

You already know that my husband lived in London for 18 years.  If anyone said that to him he just would have brushed it off as he doesn't take things personally.  

A few times when I've asked a Scot if they'd been to London, I'd get a heated NO, why would I want to go there?  Their loss.  

We all know about the rivalry between Scotland and England regarding sports, and sometimes that goes too far. Quite a few English have been shocked to find that during the world cup, Scots will cheer for whoever is playing against England.


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## hollydolly (Feb 27, 2015)

No Annie you misunderstand if an Englishman had said it to me I would have brushed it off as just ignorance in the same way I've seen the sometimes deep resentment towards the English by the scots ..everyone knows there's always been historic  rivalry between the 2 countries, ...however what smarted most was the fact that this was a fellow countrymen ( a businessman) saying this to me....*here* in an office in London. Both of us here on business.. and when on recognising his  Glasgow accent ..,  I struck up a conversation saying that I too was from Glasgow and how much of a pleasure it was to hear a 'friendly' voice and how I missed hearing the accent  ..but that I  had moved here as a teenager so most of my Brogue had  gone...he was very abusive, and spat out the word 'traitor' before turning on his heel and walking away. No , it wasn't water off a ducks back , I was stunned, and have never forgotten that this was one of my 'own people'.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 27, 2015)

Imagine how WE feel in the States... That venom comes from other Americans...


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## Ameriscot (Feb 27, 2015)

hollydolly said:


> No Annie you misunderstand if an Englishman had said it to me I would have brushed it off as just ignorance in the same way I've seen the sometimes deep resentment towards the English by the scots ..everyone knows there's always been historic  rivalry between the 2 countries, ...however what smarted most was the fact that this was a fellow countrymen ( a businessman) saying this to me....*here* in an office in London. Both of us here on business.. and when on recognising his  Glasgow accent ..,  I struck up a conversation saying that I too was from Glasgow and how much of a pleasure it was to hear a 'friendly' voice and how I missed hearing the accent  ..but that I  had moved here as a teenager so most of my Brogue had  gone...he was very abusive, and spat out the word 'traitor' before turning on his heel and walking away. No , it wasn't water off a ducks back , I was stunned, and have never forgotten that this was one of my 'own people'.



No, I understood it was a Scot.  I meant my husband is excellent at letting ignorant comments roll off his back, even if a fellow Scot.


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## Ameriscot (Feb 27, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Imagine how WE feel in the States... That venom comes from other Americans...



No need for me to imagine it.  I know it from experience.


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## Elyzabeth (Mar 1, 2015)

"Well and thoughtfully put, Dame Warrigal. I have never understood why some people think that "freedom of speech" means freedom to express bigotry, hatred, intolerance, or approval of violence against others. We are all on this earth together"

Actually freedom of speech means that we can say all of the above. 
That is why it is called Freedom of Speech.
people are allowed to say things which  other people might find very distasteful.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> My opinion is that people don't understand what freedom of speech means.
> 
> Having a right to free speech means that one can voice an opinion about the most important person in the land, in print or out loud in a public place without risking a charge of treason or similar.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this except one line. Sadly, in the United States a salesman has a legal right to lie about his product or terms in order to make a sale.


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## QuickSilver (Mar 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I agree with all of this except one line. Sadly, in the United States a salesman has a legal right to lie about his product or terms in order to make a sale.



Welll OF COURSE they do!!   We wouldn't want to put any "job Killing" regulations on them would we?  Let the free market reign...let the buyer beware..  and while we are at it?  How about getting rid of the FDA or any other regulatory group?


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## DoItMyself (Mar 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Sadly, in the United States a salesman has a legal right to lie about his product or terms in order to make a sale.



And the smart consumer can educate themselves.  We've always had snake oil salesmen around-it's nothing new.  But now, especially with the Internet, research is very easy and it's rare that someone has to deal with a salesperson.  Caveat emptor.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 1, 2015)

DoItMyself said:


> And the smart consumer can educate themselves.  We've always had snake oil salesmen around-it's nothing new.  But now, especially with the Internet, research is very easy and it's rare that someone has to deal with a salesperson.  Caveat emptor.



We deal with salespeople every day, whether in person, on the phone or online. Everything you see on the internet may not be true. You can do a lot of research and get a lot of different opinions.

This thread is about freedom of speech. I was merely pointing out that salesmen have the freedom to lie.


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## Falcon (Mar 1, 2015)

Free speech isn't free if you can be punished for using it in certain ways.


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## Meanderer (Mar 1, 2015)




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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I agree with all of this except one line. Sadly, in the United States a salesman has a legal right to lie about his product or terms in order to make a sale.



I really doubt that there is a law on the books stating that.

In fact, I would think it would be prosecuted as willful misrepresentation.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 1, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I really doubt that there is a law on the books stating that.
> 
> In fact, I would think it would be prosecuted as willful misrepresentation.



I believe it is the law Phil. I've heard it said for years. If it's not in writing it's worthless.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 1, 2015)

Falcon said:


> Free speech isn't free if you can be punished for using it in certain ways.



Wrong!  Free speech doesn't ensure immunity from ramification, it merely allows you to say what you want to say.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 1, 2015)

Phil is right, fraud also comes to mind.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 1, 2015)

I found this article.

http://www.tritebuttrue.com/blog/archives/2007/04/is_it_ever_perm.html


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## AZ Jim (Mar 1, 2015)

The article doesn't support your claim in any manner.  Also it is an opinion piece laced with biblical references.  Lying if used to defraud another is legally, fraud.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 1, 2015)

In order to have a "contract" there must be a meeting of the minds.  If you sell me a used car and represent it to me either in writing or verbally as having a rebuilt engine and it turns out not to be, that is misrepresentation and probably fraud as well.  You would be liable.


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## DoItMyself (Mar 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> We deal with salespeople every day, whether in person, on the phone or online. Everything you see on the internet may not be true. You can do a lot of research and get a lot of different opinions.
> 
> This thread is about freedom of speech. I was merely pointing out that salesmen have the freedom to lie.



I found it interesting that you posted an opinion piece below after saying that "everything you see on the internet may not be true".

On a side note, misrepresentation in product liability can be used in a civil suit.  There is no "law" allowing salesmen to lie, however people (including salespeople) often exaggerate a product's ability or usefulness-it's always been a problem and likely will always be a problem.

When a manufacturer or seller misrepresents a product, that misrepresentation can be the basis for a product liability action. In the product liability context, misrepresentation occurs when product advertising, packaging, labels, sales pitch, or other product information available to consumers misrepresent material facts concerning the quality or use of the product.

Negligent misrepresentation is frequently part of a civil or class action suit.  A finding of intentional misrepresentation is rare as the manufacturer or seller's intent is difficult to prove.


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## Warrigal (Mar 1, 2015)

Elyzabeth said:


> "Well and thoughtfully put, Dame Warrigal. I have never understood why some people think that "freedom of speech" means freedom to express bigotry, hatred, intolerance, or approval of violence against others. We are all on this earth together"
> 
> Actually freedom of speech means that we can say all of the above.
> That is why it is called Freedom of Speech.
> people are allowed to say things which  other people might find very distasteful.


There is a difference between 'freedom' and 'licence'. 



> Freedom and license must not be confused: freedom embraces responsibility and is guided by reason and virtue; license is choice without restraint.
> 
> Freedom is taking responsibility for our own life. *Insofar as it is compatible with the common good, people should be allowed to choose freely how they want to live*.
> 
> License is the throwing off of all responsibility. It is a carte blanche to do as we feel. *As such, it is incompatible with virtue and destroys community*.



Inciting violence against others is clearly licence.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I found this article.
> 
> http://www.tritebuttrue.com/blog/archives/2007/04/is_it_ever_perm.html



Interesting article, and I can see the common sense involved in some of those situations, but I didn't see where it mentioned the _legality_ of lying as much as the _moral_ perspective ...


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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> *Insofar as it is compatible with the common good, people should be allowed to choose freely how they want to live*.



And what happens when the "common good" is being dictated to you by your overseers? 

If I have a well on my property and some government lackey comes around and tells me that I MUST have the water tested - how is that for the common good? I'm the only one using that water.


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## rkunsaw (Mar 1, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Interesting article, and I can see the common sense involved in some of those situations, but I didn't see where it mentioned the _legality_ of lying as much as the _moral_ perspective ...



That's true, Phil. I couldn't find anything that said it was legal.


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## Warrigal (Mar 1, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And what happens when the "common good" is being dictated to you by your overseers?
> 
> If I have a well on my property and some government lackey comes around and tells me that I MUST have the water tested - how is that for the common good? I'm the only one using that water.


Then you have the freedom to express your objection and ask why the test is considered necessary.

Has your hypothetical scenario ever occurred?
I think it more likely that you would be told that you must make sure that the well is covered so that no-one can accidentally fall in and drown.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Then you have the freedom to express your objection and ask why the test is considered necessary.



Oh, you can ask ... but they're under no compulsion to tell.



> Has your hypothetical scenario ever occurred?



As a matter of fact it did, many moons ago. We had just moved into a somewhat rural area of the county, 10 acres around us with the house right in the middle and the well located slightly uphill from the house. 

One of the county critters came around and informed me that I had to have the well water tested by the county labs and that it would cost $250 for said test. When I questioned WHY the test was necessary he simply said, "It's the law". 



> I think it more likely that you would be told that you must make sure that the well is covered so that no-one can accidentally fall in and drown.



It was well-covered (ha-ha!), and I remember that because my first son was 3 years old at the time and I was going bonkers thinking about him falling down the well.


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## Warrigal (Mar 1, 2015)

Then I can't answer your question.

Only in America?


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## Sunny (Mar 1, 2015)

I just discovered this fascinating discussion - a day late and a dollar short, as usual.

I can vouch for the fact that they do have freedom of speech in England, at least in London. On the second day of my visit, I ventured over to the Hyde Park speakers' corner, where every nut case was expounding upon their pet theories. The biggest crowd was around some guy who was anti women's lib, insisted that nobody has ever discriminated against women in any way, all the laws were put there to protect women so they could be good mothers to their children, etc. The crowd stared at him incredulously, a few men offered some arguments (the women all remained shocked, amused, and silent), but nobody removed him from the bench he was standing on or tried to shut him up. How much more freedom of speech can there be than that?


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## Warrigal (Mar 1, 2015)

Wasn't he heckled by the crowd?


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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Then I can't answer your question.
> 
> Only in America?



Could be, but for some reason I suspect the same thing happens in many other countries as well. 

But we DO take great pride in coming up with some wonderfully bizarre laws.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 1, 2015)

Sunny said:


> ... The crowd stared at him incredulously, a few men offered some arguments (the women all remained shocked, amused, and silent), but nobody removed him from the bench he was standing on or tried to shut him up. How much more freedom of speech can there be than that?



Could that be because of the wonderfully respected and world-renowned British stiff upper lip? It just wouldn't do to take umbrage at someone like that ...


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## Warrigal (Mar 1, 2015)

Speakers Corner is renowned for audience participation. 
Robust audience participation. 
Very robust participation.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 2, 2015)

They tried to institute a Speaker's Corner in NYC's Greenwich Village when I was living there in the '70's.

Most of the speakers had bottles and cans thrown at them. :cower:


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## Warrigal (Mar 2, 2015)

Tsk! No class. 
You are supposed to throw witticisms.


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## Ameriscot (Mar 2, 2015)

Sunny said:


> I just discovered this fascinating discussion - a day late and a dollar short, as usual.
> 
> I can vouch for the fact that they do have freedom of speech in England, at least in London. On the second day of my visit, I ventured over to the Hyde Park speakers' corner, where every nut case was expounding upon their pet theories. The biggest crowd was around some guy who was anti women's lib, insisted that nobody has ever discriminated against women in any way, all the laws were put there to protect women so they could be good mothers to their children, etc. The crowd stared at him incredulously, a few men offered some arguments (the women all remained shocked, amused, and silent), but nobody removed him from the bench he was standing on or tried to shut him up. How much more freedom of speech can there be than that?



Scotland certainly has freedom of speech as well!  You should hear the names they call the leaders in London!  There are very many (not all!) Americans that seem to think the US is the only country in the world that has freedom of speech.  It isn't.


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## Uncontrolable (Aug 11, 2017)

halalu said:


> Help me please; I recently made comments about sex acts between two consenting adults is their business. (Fifty Shades of Gray) movie and books led to the comment I made. I also said that some races  or people consider certain sex acts normal. Those comments caused some females to be insulted and very cruel. One of them said that I should not be allowed to communicate about sex in public. What happened to freedom of speech and everyone being entitled to their own opinion?



The Truman quote is appropriate here:  "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen."  Having said that you might change the nature of your discourse in such a way that it appears more clinical.  There are hordes of people out there who have developed violent feelings about any subject.  So, now days, instead of polite discourse you will receive verbal violence from many who disagree.  

Sex is such a difficult subject to discuss in a forum like this, or in other public areas.  I am a man, but I see women who are afraid to be out alone in public.  I did a short study once in college.  I went into a couple of night spots located around a university.  So there were plenty of women as well as men to observe.  This was back in the early 80's.  What I saw with the men was some posturing by the men.  Some of the men would start approaching the women.  The men would become louder. I thought I might see some racial differences.  There were a few differences among the men of both races.  

What I noticed, at first, was there was absolutely no differences among the women.  The women would seem almost robot like in their dealings with men coming to their table.  They might smile, but for all intents the women were ignoring the men.  Then I noticed by accident that the women were guarding their genitals.  They kept their knees firmly together and their hands almost firmly in their crotch area.  Especially when men were around.  Then they might relax some, put their hands on the table, open their legs slightly.  This was OK when they were with just women.

Then I noticed this behavior outside the club, actually I noticed it everywhere.  Around men, women were always protecting their genitals, even when wearing pants.  I approached one of my female friends with this information and she denied knowing about it.
If she was telling the truth, and I doubted it, she likely grew up with her mother and other females telling her to protect her crotch because men would take it as a sign she was approachable.  I doubt if it was really much help with aggressive men.

I bring this up because it just exposes the surface of problems women and girls have with sex.  It surprises me that women want to be with men at all except for protection.  I have heard women say this to men, "you make me feel safe".  

Now days both girls as young as 7, and women are exposed to internet porn, they get harassed on line.  The get harassed, groped and sexually assaulted on the playground by young boys.  These young boys are also sexualized on the internet with porn.  When I was young, in the 60's, we rarely encountered photographs of actual sex acts.  Young women can grow up with psychological injuries from ****** trauma.  And boys are not far off of that.  How can we expect them to understand the rights of another person when we are modeling the reverse? 

What we need is to separate the girls and boys.  We need to keep everyone safe.  It is not possible at present.  We need to teach ethics from a young age.  We need to teach some form of spirituality.  It could be a meditation class like Tai Chee.  We need to have classes where girls tell the boys what is happening to them.  There needs to be an atmosphere of empathy.  

I am not saying that we should give up our rights.  I would be the first to advocate for you.  In this case however, I would err on the side of empathy.


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## Camper6 (Aug 11, 2017)

Sometimes free speech is 'over the top' for social conversations.

I mean if a guy can't make a sentence without cursing and swearing, I just walk away.

You have to draw the line somewhere.  You can't impose your moral standards or lack of moral standards on someone else without expecting to be told about it.


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## Warrigal (Aug 11, 2017)

Uncontrolable, that is a very astute observation concerning interactions between women and men that they are unfamiliar with. It brought back a memory of being groped underwater at the public swimming pool when I was a prepubescent child. The perp was just a teenager but the experience was both painful and humiliating.

Other than that I really don't have any other recollections. Possibly it could be because in the 1950s we wore so many layers of clothing and undergarments that the groin area was well protected. I do remember protecting myself from stares at my breasts. Cotton dresses tended to be revealing when you leaned forward and the hand was always placed over the chest to prevent exposure. I was never touched but uninvited comments were distressing.

Camper, I agree about the language. I recently joined a forum that prided itself on freedom of speech. I put up with the foul language for a while but when one member kept talking about the most disgusting things I not only left, I hounded the moderator to remove my name from the list of members. It took some time because he could not understand my request. He had become accustomed to this standard and couldn't fathom my reaction.


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