# Major AmTrak wreck



## Don M. (May 13, 2015)

The news is full of this tragedy.  It would appear that this will come down to "Pilot Error" on the part of the engineer.  

http://news.yahoo.com/amtrak-train-...-investigation-begins-073410531--finance.html

This train was going over 100MPH, when the speed limit on this sharp curve is 50 MPH.  

When it is all sorted out, I would bet that this engineer was playing with his cell phone.


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## AprilT (May 13, 2015)

Insane, I don't know if it was the case here of distracted engineer, but, it has always been my feeling that people who are at the controls of such operations, shouldn't be allowed to carry non-work related communication devices.  I had to phone in a bus driver who was texting and chatting on the phone while he was driving the bus.  I was aghast, the man was driving using one hand driving such a powerful vehicle and the way these people drive out here, that's nothing to take chances with.


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## Don M. (May 13, 2015)

There are very limited possibilities in this crash.  Either there was a major malfunction in the speed control of this train, or the engineer wasn't paying attention.  If there was a malfunction, it would only seem logical that he, or an automated system would have sent appropriate warnings....nothing on the news about that.  Lack of attention in today's world usually means booze, drugs, or texting...I would vote for texting.  

Cell phone usage has replaced drunken driving as the Number One hazard on the road.


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## AprilT (May 13, 2015)

I do know the guy lawyered up right away, but, I'm reserving judgement till more facts come in.  Very sad either way, so very sorry for all those involved and heart goes out to the families who now have to bury their loved ones.


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## SeaBreeze (May 13, 2015)

I feel very bad that so many lost their lives again, and their families are heartbroken.  They say the train lacked some mandatory safety controls, so that was a part of the problem.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/13/derailed-amtrak-train-safety-controls_n_7279166.html




> WASHINGTON/PHILADELPHIA, May 13 (Reuters) - The commuter rail route where an Amtrak train left the track on Tuesday was not governed by an advanced safety technology meant to prevent high-speed derailments, investigators said on Wednesday.
> 
> A system called "positive train control" (PTC) automatically slows or even halts trains that are moving too fast or heading into a danger zone. Under current law, the rail industry must adopt the technology by the end of this year.
> 
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (May 14, 2015)

The House cut 250 million from the Amtrack budget yesterday!


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## Ameriscot (May 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The House cut 250 million from the Amtrack budget yesterday!



How stupid!  The US needs more public transport instead of less.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

Republicans have been trying to GUT Amtrak for years..   WHY?  Do you need to ask?   To PRIVATIZE it... of course.


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## Ralphy1 (May 14, 2015)

I have ridden that Amtrack route several times.  Amtrack has vacation packages that allows one to purchase hotel, shows and sights reservations in advance of travel.  It made it very convenient to visit NYC, Philly, and DC for some wonderful weekend trips.  Sad, very sad...


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## Ameriscot (May 14, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Republicans have been trying to GUT Amtrak for years..   WHY?  Do you need to ask?   To PRIVATIZE it... of course.



Yea, the Tories hear love to privatise everything!!  They even talk about privatising the NHS.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

Listening to some guy from the Railway something or other...  He brought up something that I'm sure not may thought of.  Until congress gets off it's duff and properly funds AMTRAK.. and the technology to control trains remotely is installed, why not just put TWO people in the engineers cabin of passenger trains?  One can monitor the other and read signals, and perhaps prevent things like this from happening.


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## Ameriscot (May 14, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Listening to some guy from the Railway something or other...  He brought up something that I'm sure not may thought of.  Until congress gets off it's duff and properly funds AMTRAK.. and the technology to control trains remotely is installed, why not just put TWO people in the engineers cabin of passenger trains?  One can monitor the other and read signals, and perhaps prevent things like this from happening.



Good idea.  The US has got to be the worst industrialised country for availability of public transport.  I know Europe is smaller, but there are so many people that can easily get by without owning a car and polluting the air and increasing the need for oil.   We saw electric buses in Glasgow on our last trip.


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## Ralphy1 (May 14, 2015)

The car culture of the U.S. is stubbornly difficult to change, for the most part public transportation is avoided by most whenever possible...


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The car culture of the U.S. is stubbornly difficult to change, for the most part public transportation is avoided by most whenever possible...



Actually that's not true..












I think that a well funded and extensive high speed rail system would be very well utilized and would reduce congestion on our highways as well as decrease harmful emissions


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## SifuPhil (May 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> I have ridden that Amtrack route several times.  Amtrack has vacation packages that allows one to purchase hotel, shows and sights reservations in advance of travel.  It made it very convenient to visit NYC, Philly, and DC for some wonderful weekend trips.  Sad, very sad...



It was going to be my primary means of escape from Pennsylvania to Florida as well. Now I'm having second thoughts ... at this rate it might be safer to hitchhike naked.


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## Ralphy1 (May 14, 2015)

Yes, but those improvements are not really dramatic when one looks at the overall numbers and may have reached a wall of resistance now.  A grand new Amtrak station was built not far from me to entice suburban commuters to take the train.  The parking lot stands empty most of the time.  Old habits are just hard to change as most still drive Route 95 to Providence and Boston...


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## ndynt (May 14, 2015)

When a plane crashes or train wrecks many lives are involved.  But, llike always, the wrecks in ratio to the number of uneventful flights or rail trips that have been completed should be considered.  Though this data may be outdated.. train travel is considered the safest mode of transportation. 

*Fatality rate per billion passenger miles traveled*   *Car *[SIZE=-2](most dangerous)[/SIZE]
               7.2                *Airplane*
               2.3                *Bus*
               2.0                *Train *[SIZE=-2](safest)[/SIZE]
               0.5


[SIZE=-2]Fatalities by air carrier[/SIZE][SIZE=-2], including international operators.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]21,491 avg. car occupant deaths and avg. 1,439,628 million passenger vehicle miles traveled from 1988-2006, from Traffic Safety Facts [/SIZE][SIZE=-2]2005 (PDF)[/SIZE][SIZE=-2], NHTSA.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]718 avg. bus deaths from 1988-2006 ( avg.), from Traffic Safety Facts [/SIZE][SIZE=-2]2005 (PDF)[/SIZE][SIZE=-2] and [/SIZE][SIZE=-2]2006 (PDF)[/SIZE][SIZE=-2], NHTSA.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]330,137 million bus-miles traveled[/SIZE][SIZE=-2] from 1990-2006 (19,420 avg.), from BTS.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]83 passenger rail deaths[/SIZE][SIZE=-2] from 1994-07 and [/SIZE][SIZE=-2]168,783 million passenger miles[/SIZE][SIZE=-2] from 1994-2006 (5.9 deaths and 12,983 million miles avg.) (BTS, Table 2-38: Railroad Passenger Safety Data). If we include data from 1990-1993 the fatality rate is much higher (8.6 deaths/yr.), because of a large Amtrak crash in 1993 that killed 42 people.[/SIZE]


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## ndynt (May 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Yes, but those improvements are not really dramatic when one looks at the overall numbers and may have reached a wall of resistance now.  A grand new Amtrak station was built not far from me to entice suburban commuters to take the train.  The parking lot stands empty most of the time.  Old habits are just hard to change as most still drive Route 95 to Providence and Boston...


Amazing is it not?  I hated that drive.  My niece still drives it daily, from the RI border to Boston.  Frequently posting pictures, on FB, of bottlenecks...where she has been stalled over a hour.  When she could commute by train.


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## Ralphy1 (May 14, 2015)

I drove it for a few years and one reason that I changed jobs was just to get away from it.  I wound up driving the other way on 95 but it was free flowing as most people were going to work in Providence and Boston...


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## Glinda (May 14, 2015)

I wonder if we could provide a tax incentive to encourage more people to use mass transit?  I've used the buses and trolleys in San Diego for years and have no problem with it.  A senior monthly bus pass is only $18.00.  I am encouraged to hear that the interest in owning a car/driving among millennials is diminished compared to the boomer generation, although I don't know the exact statistics.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

People would use mass transit IF there were more of it and if it was available on their route.   I hate driving.. I have to drive 20 miles each way.  There is no public transportation available from my house to where I work, so I have no choice.  If I could drive to a train station and find parking and have it leave me off close to my job, you better believe I would be taking it.   I have no choice but to drive.


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## Don M. (May 14, 2015)

AprilT said:


> I do know the guy lawyered up right away, but, I'm reserving judgement till more facts come in.  Very sad either way, so very sorry for all those involved and heart goes out to the families who now have to bury their loved ones.



The fact that this guy's First Step was to hide behind his lawyer, and "conveniently" cannot remember anything, says, to me, that he realizes that he screwed up, and bears the brunt of responsibility for this wreck.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

He either fell asleep.. or he was texting.  Something had to distract him from how fast he was going coming into that curve.  This is why perhaps a 2nd person in the cabin would have been helpful.


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## WhatInThe (May 14, 2015)

Hopefully this is coincidence but in less than one week two public transportation vehicles in Philadelphia had rocks thrown at them.

http://6abc.com/news/brick-thrown-through-school-bus-window-student-injured/714554/

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/tr...mtrak-crash-philadelphia/stories/201505130188

Perhaps not a conspiracy or same person but it could be sick fad/trend. We don't even know what happened with this Amtrak train other than speed was very likely a factor. It's seem like almost once a year some where in the country you have criminals throwing stones or even shooting at cars & trucks on a highway.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

So are you saying that this Engineer felt compelled to bring that train up to 106 miles per hour in a curve designed for 50 mph tops... in order to escape stones?


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## WhatInThe (May 14, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So are you saying that this Engineer felt compelled to bring that train up to 106 miles per hour in a curve designed for 50 mph tops... in order to escape stones?



No, but if it startled him he might have accelerated and/ or stopped suddenly. Heard one report the emergency brakes were suddenly on. 

There was speeding involved no doubt but you don't think these trains and engineers haven't speeded before without incident.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

I think he either woke up.. or looked up from his IPhone just as he went into that curve at over 100 mph.


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## oldman (May 14, 2015)

Do trains have a black box(es)?


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

oldman said:


> Do trains have a black box(es)?



Yes   That is where the NTA got the speed.   http://www.bustle.com/articles/8299...to-tell-investigators-these-important-metrics


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## Davey Jones (May 14, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> How stupid!  The US needs more public transport instead of less.




I don't think the auto industry would agree with you.


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## QuickSilver (May 14, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> I don't think the auto industry would agree with you.



Do bears poop in the woods?


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## AprilT (May 14, 2015)

I will continue to reserve judgement, little bits and pieces are coming in, so it's still too early for anything conclusive as far as I'm concerned.  At the moment, they're reporting the train for some unknown reason spead up just before the turn as if possible malfunction and though the conductor should have had certain warnings and indicators as some lines do, this train didn't have the equipment to notify the engineer of the speed error.  Still, why this all happened is a mystery and though the man at the trains helm at the time is slowly starting to answer questions, he too was banged up, so expecting him to automatically give answers right on the scene, there may be good reasons for the precautions to not do so, considering all involved and how words can be twisted when in such a state.  

Really difficult to say this or that is what happened for sure when, upon further investigation, nothing is as it first appears, as is often the case when we jump to judgement.  He may or may not be cause and effect, still too early to call.


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## Shalimar (May 14, 2015)

Naked, Phil? Those poor motorists, think of the accidents! Lol.


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## SifuPhil (May 15, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Naked, Phil? Those poor motorists, think of the accidents! Lol.



That's what they get for not paying attention to the road!


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## WhatInThe (May 15, 2015)

Was Amtrak train hit by a rock? Conductor thinks so.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_AMTRAK_CRASH?SITE=SCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html

The only reason I give this credence is that there were two other public transportation vehicles hit by rocks this week in Philadelphia alone. Doesn't explain or justify how the engineer might have reacted by speeding up because there are reports of sudden acceleration. Also if this was well prior to the crash could damage have been done to any control systems. Or could vandals or worse have sabotaged tracks. There have been a lot of derailments this year and it's not just "old" infrastructure.


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## QuickSilver (May 16, 2015)

What the heck?  How convenient?  

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/am...esnt-remember-train-crash-lawyer-says-n358661

[FONT=proxima_nova_rgregular]Bostian spoke with National Transportation Safety Board investigators Friday, and was described by an NTSB board member as "extremely cooperative." Bostian told investigators he doesn't remember anything after ringing the bell at the north Philadelphia station before the crash, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said.[/FONT]


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## WhatInThe (May 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What the heck?  How convenient?
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/am...esnt-remember-train-crash-lawyer-says-n358661
> 
> [FONT=proxima_nova_rgregular]Bostian spoke with National Transportation Safety Board investigators Friday, and was described by an NTSB board member as "extremely cooperative." Bostian told investigators he doesn't remember anything after ringing the bell at the north Philadelphia station before the crash, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt said.[/FONT]



Yup, the engineer doesn't remember anything but yet remembers to take down his facebook picture hours after the crash.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-amtrak-crash-engineer-changed-153105324.html


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## Don M. (May 16, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Yup, the engineer doesn't remember anything but yet remembers to take down his facebook picture hours after the crash.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/latest-amtrak-crash-engineer-changed-153105324.html



This guy "remembered" enough to know that he better Hide behind a lawyer Real Quick.


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## WhatInThe (May 16, 2015)

Don M. said:


> This guy "remembered" enough to know that he better Hide behind a lawyer Real Quick.



He probably would've taken down his entire page but I guess that was too complicated after a crash and concussion. My guess once his name got out it would look too suspicious to take the entire page down so he probably was just worried about keeping press away.


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## oldman (May 17, 2015)

The NTSB does a very good job of investigating accidents. They have proven themselves time and time again to be the world leader in this category. Even foreign countries have used them in times of being unable to determine a cause in aviation accidents. We, in the pilots' unions, definitely have supported them as being the best at what they do. There will be no cover-up and we will all know just what the cause was after their investigation is over, which could take more time than we believe that it should, but they are very thorough and always make sure that they have their i's dotted and their t's crossed. 

Having said that, they will now probably make a liar out of me. Isn't that the way it normally works?


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## WhatInThe (May 17, 2015)

Reports of another Amtrak traveling the same route being hit by an object the same night the 188 crashed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-trains-shot-minutes-crash-killed-eight.html

So if the 188 was hit, another Amtrak train was hit, a regional train hit and a school bus hit with flying objects within a day or two I would say Philadelphia has some very dangerous vandals/pranksters(that word is too kind). This is CRIMINAL mischief in it's purest form. 

That being said why didn't the engineer stop to file a police report or call Amtrak security at least to check where the object came from. But to speed up out of fear?


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## AZ Jim (May 17, 2015)

Let's not hang the conductor or anyone else unti we know what happened.  Armchair detectives are often wrong.


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## AprilT (May 17, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Let's not hang the conductor or anyone else unti we know what happened.  Armchair detectives are often wrong.



True, I'm sure many of the Engineer's actions after the fact, right or wrong, have been led by advisors from his union people along with his lawyer. I do recall hearing of a case or two where it wasn't the the engineer's fault and the people wanted to pin it on the person at the controls to save face for the company; that's one more reason, I'm waiting for all the investigative work to be in before forming any real opinion.


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## WhatInThe (May 17, 2015)

AprilT said:


> True, I'm sure many of the Engineer's actions after the fact, right or wrong, have been led by advisors from his union people along with his lawyer. I do recall hearing of a case or two where it wasn't the the engineer's fault and the people wanted to pin it on the person at the controls to save face for the company; that's one more reason, I'm waiting for all the investigative work to be in before forming any real opinion.



I think what we'll see is the perfect storm of negative events, infrastructure, training and equipment. Yes most want one answer. There was too much going on here. There are always the could'ves should'ves in hind sight.

My big thing here is that I'm starting to read stories of trains being hit on a regular basis by "objects". In a day and age of terrorism what was a prank, experiment or mischief should now be considered terrorism. And precautions like patrolling likely spots where object migth be thrown from or a gun fired need to be emphasized.


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