# Race/Racism discussion



## applecruncher

Long-time SF members know that I'm black, but for those of you who don't, my picture is the first in this thread.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...-high-school-pics!?highlight=high+school+pics

I'm a little older now :grin: But I'd like you to remember my pic, because later I plan to tell you something that happened to me when I was 17 years old, the age I was in that picture.

I'm not the only SF member 'of color' - I know of several others.

My purpose in starting this thread about race/racism is to hopefully have some honest, interesting, informative discussion.  I'm aware that people of various races are/have been subjected to racism....in some form.  This is not just about racism towards blacks in the US. I'd also like to try to clarify what is/is not racist.
If this discussion moves along, I'm going to be sharing some experiences, and I'd like input from others.  _This is not the applecruncher show_.

I'll start off by answering a question I hear/see online, IRL, and on TV.

QUESTION: Why is it wrong for whites to use the N-word, but it's okay for blacks to use it when talking to each other or in rap music? ANSWER: It isn't.  I know some blacks use the word and think it's okay in music, but I don't feel it's EVER okay, and people I'm related to and associate with agree with me.

QUESTION: Is it racist to say OJ was guilty or that Bill Cosby is a piece of crap for what he's been accused of? ANSWER: No. And it's not racist to feel Harvey Weinstein is a piece of crap if he did the things he's being accused of. I also think convicted child molester Jerry Sandusky is a monster and I'm glad he's in prison for the rest of his life. 

QUESTION: Do black people ever accuse other blacks of being racist towards whites? ANSWER: Yes, but they will often keep it among themselves. We don't all stick together all the time. Case in point:  A former neighbor (young black woman) had a4 year old daughter.  Seemed to me that our brief conversations centered around her feelings that white people were prejudiced. It grew tiresome. She mentioned a day care center down the street, but said they probably didn't want a black child.  I happened to know there were minority children in their care.  I said to her: "Ya know, Tasha, there are things that go on in this world that have nothing to do with race. By your own admission, you didn't try to enroll your daughter. If you had visited and talked to the staff, you would find there are other minority children." After that we didn't have a lot to say to each other.

Just want to get things started.  I'll be back.


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## tnthomas

Here's something I've wondered about:  why am I hearing that race relations have gotten worse?  This really blindsides me, I thought that as more effort towards equality and inclusiveness was made, that things would be getting better.

Or, is news reports getting a 'spin' from some quarters?


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## Granny B.

Thanks for starting this thread.  This is a subject worth discussing until it is no longer a problem--unfortunately, probably forever, since humans seem to fear/dislike anyone who differs from themselves.  I hope overall things are getting better.


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## hollydolly

Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google.. 


Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered,  studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of  Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder


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## Aunt Bea

I thought that race relations had gotten better but it seems that racism was just driven back into the shadows for a few years and now it appears to be more mainstream again.

This forum has such a diverse group of contributors and racism is such a very personal topic that I'm afraid my clumsy attempts to express myself will immediately offend one person or another.

I'm curious to see where this thread goes and will jump in again later.


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## applecruncher

hollydolly said:


> Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google..
> 
> 
> Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered,  studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of  Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder



As far as I know, the word "n@@@@r" has always been offensive and perjorative.  I do know people who somewhat disagree with me, but they say it depends on who is saying it and to whom. 

Interesting what you say about Chinese/Japanese, hollydolly.  Another thing is that Asians don't have the problems of having children out of wedlock that the black community has/still does. But that will another discussion......to be addressed later (I have my own opinions).


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## RadishRose

AC, I agree with your first two answers and appreciate that you set Tasha straight in the third scenario.

HollyDolly, in my area of New England, I am unaware of any racial slurs against people of Asian descent, thank goodness.


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## SifuPhil

"N@@@@r" derives from the Latin "_Niger_" (black), and seems to have first been used in the 16th-17th centuries.

Long time for a pejorative to be in use, but then the English language is filled with many such examples. 

Here's an observation / question ...

I've known both white and black families that are upper-class as well as middle- and lower-class. I'm not really talking about money, I'm talking about social abilities - open-mindedness, friendliness, willingness to listen to reason. "Good" people.

Why don't the middle- and upper-class among us fight the lower-class of ALL races?


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## hollydolly

Actually that's a thought to be going on with...you're right about the Chinese not having any major problems with the children out of wedlock scenario... not to say that might be the same in China but  here in the west, I've never heard of an Asian, having children out of wedlock... interesting thought which I'm sure will elicit alternative views from posters who perhaps have a higher ratio of Chinese and Japanese  where they live


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## treeguy64

Racism is deeply ingrained in all of us, (most likely) on a genetic level.  It takes a good deal of higher brain function to override the lower brain function wherein racism lurks.  Allow me to explain:  Racism has its roots in a given species noticing that the life form it is currently meeting is different from its own species.  In most cases, in Nature, different is bad.  Different means you may be encountering a predator that wants to eat you.  Conversely, different may mean that you are encountering a possible prey species, and that may be good, but you better proceed with caution, because you never know - - - - .  

Now, let's kick this up to H. sapiens, us.  Over the evolutionary period where our species was evolving, other hominid species were still extant.  If you wandered away from your kind, and encountered other similar, but different species, the odds were that the outcome was not going to be too good for you.  Coming up into H. sapiens' time, your group depended on each other for survival.  You had limited food resources, in some locations, limited water, land, etc.  Interacting with your own kind, effectively, was absolutely necessary for your survival and the passing on of your own genes to your progeny. If you came upon another group of your own species, you were an outsider, you threw their balance out of whack, and you probably were quickly dispatched.

  Any group members who had an innate fear of other members of its own species, who were in different groups, had a survival advantage.  They lived to pass on their genes.  Skin coloration, and manifested genetic traits associated with each group having different skin colors, served as clear signals that the individuals having these differences were certainly different from your group.  You were immediately ill at ease in the presence of "different" because that served your ancestors well in millennia gone by.  It served you well, too.

  OK, let's come into modern times.  We can certainly intellectualize that all people are created equal: Given the same cultural and educational opportunities, we all can get along fine, we can intermarry across racial lines, we can have friends from all different races, we can work together effectively, etc., etc.  Still, in our lower brain, the survival mechanism, as above, remains and lurks.  Those who noted differences and avoided them, in evolutionary time, survived and passed on this awareness trait.  Those who didn't, perished. So, a white person meeting a black person cannot help but notice "different," and vice versa.  This applies to all cross-racial dealings.

  There are some folks I've met, in my lifetime, who have told me they honestly don't remember, at times, the race of a person they met.  Incipient dementia notwithstanding, I don't believe them, unless they are so highly evolved that they do not have that "on guard" trait in their genetic make-up.  Anyway, the above is my take on things.  It is not meant to justify racism, only to explain its possible genetic basis, as I see it.  As I wrote, at the top, it takes a real effort to override lower brain functions.  As one who attended a school that was 87% black (I'm white), as one who has chosen, throughout my life, to live in racially diverse neighborhoods, as one who dated, and lived with, women from many different racial backgrounds, I think I've done pretty well, towards that end.  I celebrate the diversity of our species.


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## applecruncher

Something that often makes _some_ black people suspicious and wondering if a white person is racist is 1) racism is sooooo easy to hide 2) they've had an experience where a white person seemed decent and not at all prejudiced, then months/years later something happens that proves otherwise. When that happens, it can be like a knife in the stomach.  It hurts.

Here comes a story.....get something to drink.

When I turned 16 as soon as the school year ended, I told my mom I was gonna go out and get a real job.  Babysitting wasn't cutting it - I wanted real money.  I got dressed up, walked to the ice cream shop where high kids got shakes and cones......no luck. Next, I walked to the grocery store where mom shopped, not far from where we lived. (This was in a smaller town.)

It was a medium sized chain store (not quite as big as Kroger, but still a decent size).  Filled out an application, and the assistant manager came to talk to me. He said they might need someone, and that he would be in touch.

Two days later I was hired to be a cashier!  

The training period was kinda tough (the old cash registers, way before scanning). I worked fulltime during the summer, and made good money. I continued to work a few evenings and also weekends during the school year.  Saved up enough to get a pair of contact lenses ($150...$1,100 in today's dollars).

I was the only black employee. Friends of my relatives would tell me how proud they were that I was working the register and handling money. The owner/manager was super nice man.....I made mistakes but was treated very well.  Employees were truly like a little family.:love_heart:

I stayed there 2 years. The owner sold his franchise to another man named Dane.  Family man, hardworking, very involved in church.  Nice enough. At the end of my senior year I got a better job for the summer in the office of the electric company, and I was preparing to go off to college in the fall.

On my last day (a few days before graduation), Dane came up to me as he was leaving and said "Well, good luck, (AC). Sorry to see you go, but we'll just get ourselves another N@@@@r to replace you." mg1: :wtf:

Folks, I was stunned.  GOBSMACKED. My face got hot, my eyes welled up.  I stammered......"That wasn't very nice....."  Dane shrugged, grinned, mumbled "Sorry" and walked away!! (This was 1968, a couple months after the assassination of Martin Luther King.)

That really hurt me.   But I didn't tell anyone.  Why? I knew my mother and stepdad would be hurt, and might have gone to talk to Dane. My older brother definitely would have. I refused to allow the racist dog Dane to spoil my spirit, my graduation festivities, or my family's happiness and excitement. I refused to let him bring me down.

I quickly wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper about racism (in a general sense) and it was published the next day! The phone rang off the hook. I was quite the celebrity. The Mayor wrote me a nice letter and sent me a laminated copy of my published letter.  How about THAT, Dane? :kissmy:


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## OneEyedDiva

hollydolly said:


> Why is the N word considered a terrible racist word to use...after all the years of it not being deemed offensive..?...I'm usre you don't have all the answers to everything , AC..but you may know this better than google..
> 
> 
> Talking of racism, why is it that the Chinese and the Japanese here in the Uk are law abiding , well mannered,  studious and hard working in the main, and no-one uses any kind of racial slurs against them...yet from what i read in the media, and elsewhere this is not the case in other countries such as parts of  Australia, and many parts of the USA.. possibly other places too.. anyone idea why that might be the case? It's just always made me wonder


I'd like to know when the N word was not deemed offensive?? It has always been offensive...I don't care WHO uses it. I try to school the young people on the history of that word because some use it as a term denoting friendship and affection. Not cool and not smart. It was used to signify that we were less than animals.. It was used to shame us and denigrate us. Reminds me of when Reagan, then president said "he remembers this country when it didn't have a racial problem". I was like..."When the hell was THAT??!!"


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## applecruncher

> Reminds me of when Reagan, then president said "he remembers this country when it didn't have a racial problem".



Yeah, Reagan said he "didn't know this country had a racial problem".

Really?  :doh:


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## hollydolly

OneEyedDiva said:


> I'd like to know when the N word was not deemed offensive?? It has always been offensive...I don't care WHO uses it. I try to school the young people on the history of that word because some use it as a term denoting friendship and affection. Not cool and not smart. It was used to signify that we were less than animals.. It was used to shame us and denigrate us. Reminds me of when Reagan, then president said "he remembers this country when it didn't have a racial problem". I was like..."When the hell was THAT??!!"



yes that may be so...in the USA...but I never knew it ever to be offensive in the UK... in fact I still hear black people use it to this day between each other..but nowadays of course it's deemed to be very seriously racial to use it if you're not a person of colour.

An example there have been people hauled into court  on a racist charge for using that word...the only difference is none of them have been of colour , no black person to my knowledge and believe me our media would be reporting it... has ever had another black person charged with racial slurs for using the N word.. ...so in the USA it may always have been thought of  as a racist term...but not until relatively recently here in the UK...

I hasten to add I personally have never used that word, it just would never occur to me to use it..whether it was when I didn't know it was a racist term or now.... just as it would never occur to me for example to call a Chinese person  or a Pakistani person, anything other than Chinese or Pakistani...


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## applecruncher

@hollydolly

In the mid 1970s I went to New York city to visit a close friend who is white/Jewish. Earlier that year she had gone to London to join her parents who were there on business.  She said something she noticed was that East Indians (from India) held mostly subservient jobs.   ......cleaning, busboys, housekeepers, elevator operators......she said they never saw one Indian working in a bank, office, etc.  I know this isn't the case now, but any comments? Maybe that was just _her _observation.


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## hollydolly

applecruncher said:


> @hollydolly
> 
> In the mid 1970s I went to New York city to visit a close friend who is white/Jewish. Earlier that year she had gone to London to join her parent who were there on business.  She said something she noticed was that East Indians (from India) held mostly subservient jobs.   ......cleaning, busboys, housekeepers, elevator operators......she said they never saw one Indian working in a bank, office, etc.  I know this isn't the case now, but any comments?



Yes that was the case then...including bus driver and conductors etc., although tbf in Scotland where i grew up we had very few people of colour and those we did have ran their own businesses..mainly shops and tailoring etc.. but .., thankfully menial jobs are not the norm today any more than they are for non coloured people... 

So many of our top doctors, surgeons, dentists,  male and female are Indian and pakistani.... as well as CEO's of major companies  etc... 

There were very few East Indians here in the 70's most of them didn't arrive until the 1950's.....so most people of my parents generation had never seen a Black or Indian person in real life..much less lived among them or worked with them. 

History tells us that during the  40's and 50's jamaicans and Indians were  arriving by the boatload, because as far as they had been taught we were the mother land as their countries were part of the commonwealth...  ...and whether the indigenous white folk feared them or what happened I don't know, but many new imigrants with high hopes for a great life were to be seriously disappointed ..because I have learned that they were unwelcome in many places in the UK...  some Boarding houses would even have signs up saying '
''No coloured, no Irish, no children” 

I have an adopted father... he's a Jamaican black man...and he came over in the 40's and made a great success of his life as an entertainer, well known enough to eventually work with Sammy davis Jnr etc... but the stories he told me of the abuse he was  met with  during his first few years here   ..was shocking to me ... 


Anyway time to leave this thread..I think now, I'm getting in way above my head, I don't know enough about racism to be able to debate it with any real understanding of the subject...


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## rkunsaw

AC true the N word has always been offensive but what about the other words used instead. In my 75 years on this planet I've heard and used *****, Colored, Black, African-American, and others. It seems each generation picks a favorite word and other words are then considered Racist. 

Being old and uninformed of the latest fad, I certainly may use the wrong words but I do not use them in any way that could ever be considered racist. 

BTW, what word do you currently call yourself?


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## rkunsaw

After I posted the above, I noticed that the word N E G R O  was removed. It must be considered racist now but during the time it was in use it certainly wasn't racist.


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## applecruncher

rkunsaw said:


> AC true the N word has always been offensive but what about the other words used instead. In my 75 years on this planet I've heard and used *****, Colored, Black, African-American, and others. It seems each generation picks a favorite word and other words are then considered Racist.
> 
> Being old and uninformed of the latest fad, I certainly may use the wrong words but I do not use them in any way that could ever be considered racist.
> 
> BTW, what word do you currently call yourself?



Black, since early 70s. Not a fad, never changed. But when someone says African American it's okay.  Understandably confuses some people.


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## Cap'nSacto

treeguy64; "Racism is deeply ingrained in all of us, (most likely) on a genetic level." 

Not on a genetic level, no. Racism is 100% learned. 

I can explain a couple of reasons why very few Asians have children out of wedlock. Marriages are still arranged in many Asian countries. At the very least, marriage is strongly encouraged and expected. Also, in a majority of Asian countries, there is no shame attached when a woman gets an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy whether she's married or not.


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## hearlady

I'm sorry that happened to you applecruncher. I know you were too classy (and stunned) to coldcock him but he certainly deserved it. 
Let's hope karma took care of him.


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## Smiling Jane

tnthomas said:


> Here's something I've wondered about:  why am I hearing that race relations have gotten worse?  This really blindsides me, I thought that as more effort towards equality and inclusiveness was made, that things would be getting better.



I was watching the OZY show about racism and realized the Civil Rights Bill would not pass in today's climate; heck, it wouldn't be created or come up for a vote.


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## Marie5656

*Interesting conversation starter, AC.  I grew up in a small town.  Met my first black class mate in the 7th grade.  In fact, we remained friends through graduation.  
My parents were both very racist.  Once, when shopping downtown with my mom, I ran into Kevin, my black classmate.  We said hello and chatted for a minute or two, about school, homework and the like.  My mom was livid..with a "What will people think" attitude.  I spent my adult life trying to look beyond their negative feelings.  
I really try to be nice and respectful to all people I me, no matter who they are or skin color.  I try not to judge.  I have a lot more I could say, but will reserve comments for later in this thread
*


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## applecruncher

@Marie5656 interesting. There's a movie _"Far from Heaven"_ with Dennis Quaid, Julienne Moore, and Dennis Haysbert (black actor with great voice who does the Allstate Insurance commercials) that came to mind when I read your post.

Time for another story:

I was born in and went to elementary school  in a small Ohio town (different town than high school). I was always friends with and socialized with the pretty, popular girls - even though my brother and I were the only black children in that particular school district.  I think my first experience with outward racism was when I was in second grade when I was 7. The girls in my clique sat together at lunch and invited each other for sleepovers.

I slowly began to notice that Marianne never invited me to her house - not for birthday parties, sleepovers, anything. Never. But she went out of her way to be nice and talk to/play with me. Once while in line for lunch I asked her - point blank - when was it going to be my turn to spend the night.  Marianne exchanged looks with the other girls and her face turned red. She said: "You can't. My parents said you aren't allowed in our home because of the color of your skin."

Wow. There was a long silence.  Interesting that Marianne felt guilty and knew it was wrong, but there was nothing she could do.

In third grade I became friends with Tracy. Her family was new in town; her father was a very prominent doctor. Tracy had a birthday party and invited me. She said her mother would pick me up and bring me home. My mom was a bit nervous and asked me "Does Tracy's mother know you're 'colored'?" My 8 year old self replied "I don't know, but she'll find out when she comes to get me."  Had a great time.


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## Falcon

When I was in high school, one of  my best friends was a  "Colored Boy'.  We shared a lathe in wood shop.

He  played the bass  "fiddle"  in the school band.  Several years later  he moved to N Y City and played  bass with a couple  of 

big well known orchestras.  His name was  Major Holly.  I used to see his name  in the  NY Times quite often.

Couple years ago. I "Googled"  him and found several write-ups about  him; well known among the musicians there.

I think he passed on awhile back.  He was getting old  like me.


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## applecruncher

@Falcon - was that in Detroit?  I seem to recall you said you're from there, right?

I had a boyfriend who lived there - his family moved from Ohio to Detroit in the 60s. My bf and his brothers were very talented; had a band and made a lot of money under the management of their father.  Nightclubs, dances, corporate events. Back then there were some beautiful homes and many black families did quite well.  But now you could not pay me to go near Detroit. I've read a lot and seen videos - what a sewer. uuuggghhh.... And don't even get me started talking about former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.  He was sent to prison for 28 yrs - which is where he deserves to be.


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## Falcon

Yes,  AC  It was Detroit  and Cooley High School.  In the mid 30s  my father7 had a beautiful brick home built  on the corner of Normandy and Grove.

Yes, AC,  Detroit.  In the mid 30s, my father had a beautiful  home  built on the corner of Normandy & Grove.  I lived there until after  WWII. 

 Then moved here (Calif.)  I know what you mean about the city today.  I went back there about 6 years ago and drove thru the neighborhood

And was saddened and heartbroken.  That beautiful  house was a shambles; broken windows, broken fence, lawns of weeds etc..

 My question is  WHY ?   Can't the citizens  see what's become of that once beautiful city?

I have no interest of returning there  for any reason.  Too cold there in the winter anyway.

  Nice chatting with you  Applecruncher.
;


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## applecruncher

Something I've noticed and experienced, especially when I was working. (This doesn't apply to all white people, but suffice to say it happened a lot.)

Often when a white person meets or is assigned to work closely or travel with a black co-worker, the white person will slyly bring up the subject of race by saying "they had a black roommate in college" or "a black couple just bought a house down the street and they seem like really nice people", etc. etc.

This is kinda silly....they go out of their way to try to convince the black person they have nothing against blacks. But when people did this, I found it offensive because it showed they didn't see me as a person - they saw me as a black person.


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## Mrs. Robinson

AC-I think this has to be the best thread I have ever seen on this Forum-maybe on any forum. We are headed out for dinner right now so I will have to comment later but can hardly wait to read more comments. I always knew I liked you and now I know why. More later.


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## applecruncher

Thanks, Mrs. R.  The feeling is mutual. :love_heart:

And yes, I have a lot more stories. Hard to type while eating warmed up tuna casserole.


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## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> Something I've noticed and experienced, especially when I was working. (This doesn't apply to all white people, but suffice to say it happened a lot.)
> 
> Often when a white person meets or is assigned to work closely or travel with a black co-worker, the white person will slyly bring up the subject of race by saying "they had a black roommate in college" or "a black couple just bought a house down the street and they seem like really nice people", etc. etc.
> 
> This is kinda silly....they go out of their way to try to convince the black person they have nothing against blacks. But when people did this, I found it offensive because it showed they didn't see me as a person - they saw me as a black person.



Maybe those white people were(in their clumsy fashion) just trying to connect?

And, as far as seeing your being black, the concept of being 'color blind' is warm n' fuzzy, but it's just a myth.  People[all people] recognize other people's differing racial and cultural traits.


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## Don M.

I confess that I've never really had any close associations with a Black person.  There were none in my schools when growing up, very few in the career field I had in the military, virtually none in my working career, and very few in areas we have lived in.  All I know is what I see on the news....and most of that is negative.  

Of interest lately is the "Black Lives Matter"movement.  I've been paying attention to that, especially since it seems to have started in Ferguson, MO., just a couple hours drive from here.  It seems, to me, that the best way to avoid any confrontation with the police is to act in a civil manner, and follow the instructions given by the police when stopped.  Being a policeman, to me, would have to be the worst job in the world...having to deal with criminals, and derelicts on a daily basis...never knowing when one of them might attack.  Then, I think about just what or who would benefit from the demands this movement is trying to instill.  As the cops are being increasingly "demonized", and insulted, it is only human nature that these police will begin to reduce their presence in the areas where they are truly needed the most.  As a result, the thugs in the drug and street gangs, which already hold the Real authority in the depressed neighborhoods, will continue to gain strength and control over the area.  The Real losers will be the honest hard working people in those regions.  The riots, looting, and burning of local infrastructure in these neighborhoods will turn parts of our inner cities into little more than 3rd world ghettos.  

I also find it strange that so many Blacks seem to want to be identified as "African American".  In truth, most Blacks are more "American" than most of the Whites....their ancestry can be traced back to this nation many more generations than most Whites.  I don't recall ever having met any Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, or French-Americans, etc.....just Americans.  Equality is most likely to flourish when people identify with a common baseline, and have similar goals.  

Racism is something that has little or no effect on me, personally, but it is sure making life in many of our cities miserable....for members of All races.


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## applecruncher

@tnthomas



> Maybe those white people were(in their clumsy fashion) just trying to connect?



Yes, I can see that.  Fair enough.


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## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> @tnthomas
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I can see that.  Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler





Yes, no doubt, that white boy is a putz, but then again....he is George Costanza.


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## Shalimar

tnthomas said:


> Maybe those white people were(in their clumsy fashion) just trying to connect?
> 
> And, as far as seeing your being black, the concept of being 'color blind' is warm n' fuzzy, but it's just a myth.  People[all people] recognize other people's differing racial and cultural traits.




We are a diverse bunch where I work. Our coordinator  is a Somali born psychiatrist, two of our therapists are East Asian, one is Indigenous, the rest are Caucasian. Oh, the secretary is a Muslim from Malaysia,  I think? Of course we all notice the differences between us, but we believe that strengthens our ability to provide services to a multicultural community.


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## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> Something I've noticed and experienced, especially when I was working. (This doesn't apply to all white people, but suffice to say it happened a lot.)
> 
> Often when a white person meets or is assigned to work closely or travel with a black co-worker, the white person will slyly bring up the subject of race by saying "they had a black roommate in college" or "a black couple just bought a house down the street and they seem like really nice people", etc. etc.
> 
> This is kinda silly....they go out of their way to try to convince the black person they have nothing against blacks. But when people did this, I found it offensive because it showed they didn't see me as a person - they saw me as a black person.



I sort of relate to that...somewhat. My father is white, my mother Korean. It was more obvious when I was younger that I'm not 100% white, but sometimes people still look at me with that expression that says they want to ask but think they shouldn't. When I was a kid and people asked "What are you?" I'd tell them, and they usually said "OH! I _love_ Jacki Chan!" - who identifies as Chinese. layful: These days, *if* I am asked, and tell, the person usually wants to discuss Kim Jong Un. I have never lived in Korea, and never visited North Korea. ..awkward.

Granted, applecruncher, the issue of *my* race has never really been particularly difficult for me (especially since my hair turned white) but still, I decided young to always be patient and understanding about it. And I am very optimistic that a time is coming when people will read about the issue of race with disbelief.


----------



## hearlady

So glad to see this discussion. It is so needed. 

I grew up in an all white town north of Boston. I left after high school graduation and went to Myrtle Beach South Carolina. Quite a change for me as I worked side by side with blacks. We got along well. 
I was in Myrtle Beach to have fun and see the world. They were workers and when not at work they went back to their towns. They were not there to party.

I met my husband who had just joined the Air Force. I began to see more of the world. To me the military was great as far as diversity. We all made the same income, lived in the same housing, went to the same neighborhood schools. Us and our children made friends with all races of people. 

We moved to our last base in North Carolina when my children were in grade school. I remember when we were moving one of my black friends said the blacks in the south were "too passive". 
We wanted to buy a house and not live on base because my husband would be retiring here. We chose a town out in the country in a small community. The school had minority students, some military kids, but mostly white and it was quite different then the schools they attended in the military. 

There is much more of a cultural divide in the south. It seems most of the blacks I know are people I work with  or patients of mine but I don't socialise much beyond that. 
I tend to relate more with the older generation of blacks here and I think they are more what my friend called "passive". They've seen and experienced racism and want to move beyond it.

I don't avoid having  friends of different races and have many acquaintances. In my work now it's just me and my assistant. My kids are long out of school and I didn't ever keep in touch with any of their friend's parents. I don't see my neighbors much right now. Only on Facebook.lol

When  retire I hope to join groups and make friends, visit my neighbors, get out in the world.
I want to understand racism and how to stop it. This country is so torn right now.
I think a lot is fear and not hate. We fear what we don't understand.


----------



## hearlady

I know my post and some others are more of our experiences with race but I hope some hard questions about racism get asked and discussed so we can all come away with something good.
Thank you applecruncher.
My first is: Do you think forced integration was good or bad for this country? Could that part of civil rights be handled better?


----------



## applecruncher

*@hearlady* 

- I don't think racism is based on fear. I think ii's mostly based on selfishness, ignorance, and hatred.....but mostly a feeling of superiority. (In my story about the grocery store manager who called me a name, what on earth was there for him to "fear" from a hard working 18 yr old girl from a decent family who was about to graduate high school and go to college?  )What did the murderers of Emmett Till "fear"?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

Racism based on fear? Nah, that's an excuse, a cop-out, and I'm not buying it.  

RACISM: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

- Concerning integration, it was necessary. Basic opportunities, especially pertaining to a decent education.

Upthread Don M. made the comment that racism hasn't affected him. Well, if he or his parents had been denied employment, housing, an education, a bank loan/mortgage,  or service in a restaurant based solely on the color of his skin he might feel differently.


----------



## Smiling Jane

applecruncher said:


> Upthread Don M. made the comment that racism hasn't affected him. Well, if he or his parents had been denied employment, housing, or an education based simply on the color of his skin he might feel differently.



Living in New Mexico which is multicultural (part of the reason I'm here), it's not that unusual to be discriminated against for being white. First time it happened to me, I thought, so that's what it feels like? It was a good learning experience, but I can't imagine how it would feel if that happened all through my life instead of a few times.


----------



## applecruncher

Okay, okay.....stop clamoring.  Here's another story.

In jr high and high school my best friend was Judy, who was black. But she went to the Catholic High School, and I attended one of the public high schools (the largest one). Judy and I dated brothers......good looking guys who had a band and drove their dad's '62 black Cadillac.

I had both black and white friends in high school, I was in lots of activities, and as I said earlier I had a job in a grocery store. The black kids tended to cluster together, and they always sat together at lunch in the cafeteria. Always. This was a large school (about 1400 kids).

Most of my black friends were nice enough, but there were two sisters - Mary & Geraldine - who gave new meaning to bullying and torment. They were vile. I always sat with the black cluster at lunch, but sometimes my stomach would be in knots because of them.  I also had a good friend who was white - Phyllis.  One day I simply decided I was NOT going to put up with Mary & Geraldine's BS. So I talked to Phyllis and asked her if I could start sitting with her group at lunch. She said sure.

So, we got our trays, I walked past the black cluster.......a hush .....I mean people's forks stopped mid-air.  EVERYBODY stared.  And I never sat with Mary & Geraldine again.  They came to my locker and demanded to know what was going on. Puhleeeze.  I looked at them as if they were something to be scraped off the bottom of my shoe, closed my locker, said nothing and walked away.

I didn't realize it then, but I was kinda the Rosa Parks of the high school cafeteria.


----------



## nvtribefan

applecruncher said:


> *@hearlady*
> 
> - I don't think racism is based on fear. I think ii's mostly based on selfishness, ignorance, and hatred.....but mostly a feeling of superiority.



I think the underlying emotion is insecurity.  Insecure people have the need to look down on someone.


----------



## hearlady

Yes applecruncher I agree that the definition of racism is one race feeling superior over another.
I don't think ( or hope ) most people feel that way nowadays.
When I say fear I mean this:
One may not hate (or feel superior to) Hispanics but they fear a large immigration would put a drain on our system.
One may not hate Muslims but fear suicide bombs or sharia law.
One may not hate ( or again, feel superior) to black people but fear reverse racism.
One may not hate Asians....wait who would fear Asians..just kidding. You get the point.
I fear these things are ignorant but sadly true.

Ill accept your view on immigration. I don't enough  know about it so I'm asking. They started bussing students to my town the year after I graduated. Just always seemed a bad use of funds to bus students so far from schools, families, community, etc. Could the money have been be better spent to improve the lives and education
 of young black students.
I'm just here to learn.


----------



## RadishRose

I agree on your basis' from racism, AC but-

For some of us, there *is* a base of fear. Great fear. As stupid as this sounds now, to me, a small child in an all white neighborhood, things on TV made huge impressions.

TV show and movies which featured "the Natives" scared the hell out of me! Tarzan, Ramar of the Jungle, certain cartoons, etc. featured black people with scary painted faces, spears and were always ready to kill white people, or so it seemed. I even had nightmares.

Of course, that all changed but one day, as a young and obvious mother-to-be, I was walking downtown when 3 black male youths were walking toward me, abreast, and took up the entire sidewalk. I had to stop and the one on the end actually shouldered me aside and off the curb into the gutter. Fortunately, I kept my balance.

Their hate was obvious and I felt so very hurt and also frightened. I still wonder what that was all about.


----------



## hearlady

"Ill accept your view on immigration". Obviously I meant integration. Sorry.


----------



## applecruncher

hearlady said:


> Yes applecruncher I agree that the definition of racism is one race feeling superior over another.
> I don't think ( or hope ) most people feel that way nowadays.
> When I say fear I mean this:
> One may not hate (or feel superior to) Hispanics but they fear a large immigration would put a drain on our system.
> One may not hate Muslims but fear suicide bombs or sharia law.
> One may not hate ( or again, feel superior) to black people but fear reverse racism.
> One may not hate Asians....wait who would fear Asians..just kidding. You get the point.
> I fear these things are ignorant but sadly true.
> 
> Ill accept your view on immigration. I don't enough  know about it so I'm asking. They started bussing students to my town the year after I graduated. Just always seemed a bad use of funds to bus students so far from schools, families, community, etc. Could the money have been be better spent to improve the lives and education
> of young black students.
> I'm just here to learn.



hearlady, just to clarify I didn't address immigration - you asked about integration.

I appreciate your comments.

ETA: Now I see you corrected.


----------



## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> Okay, okay.....stop clamoring.  Here's another story.
> 
> In jr high and high school my best friend was Judy, who was black. But she went to the Catholic High School, and I attended one of the public high schools (the largest one). Judy and I dated brothers......good looking guys who had a band and drove their dad's '62 black Cadillac.
> 
> I had both black and white friends in high school, I was in lots of activities, and as I said earlier I had a job in a grocery store. The black kids tended to cluster together, and they always sat together at lunch in the cafeteria. Always. This was a large school (about 1400 kids).
> 
> Most of my black friends were nice enough, but there were two sisters - Mary & Geraldine - who gave new meaning to bullying and torment. They were vile. I always sat with the black cluster at lunch, but sometimes my stomach would be in knots because of them.  I also had a good friend who was white - Phyllis.  One day I simply decided I was NOT going to put up with Mary & Geraldine's BS. So I talked to Phyllis and asked her if I could start sitting with her group at lunch. She said sure.
> 
> So, we got our trays, I walked past the black cluster.......a hush .....I mean people's forks stopped mid-air.  EVERYBODY stared.  And I never sat with Mary & Geraldine again.  They came to my locker and demanded to know what was going on. Puhleeeze.  I looked at them as if they were something to be scraped off the bottom of my shoe, closed my locker, said nothing and walked away.
> 
> I didn't realize it then, but I was kinda the Rosa Parks of the high school cafeteria.



Yes you were  you go Rosa!     View attachment 43411


----------



## fuzzybuddy

For God's sake, the U.S. is a bastion of racism. Half the nation fought and died to preserve Black slavery. The remnants of that will echo for quite some time. And it is hard not to notice the color of a person's skin.  We have to keep working for the time when the sex and the color of the person next to us does not mean they are unequal to us..


----------



## Mrs. Robinson

fuzzybuddy said:


> For God's sake, the U.S. is a bastion of racism. Half the nation fought and died to preserve Black slavery. The remnants of that will echo for quite some time. And it is hard not to notice the color of a person's skin.  We have to keep working for the time when the sex and the color of the person next to us does not mean they are unequal to us..



It certainly won`t happen in our lifetime-not even in our greatgreatgrandchildren`s. But someday,I truly believe,we will all be of a similar skin color. Maybe that is when racism will truly end.


----------



## Mrs. Robinson

Coincidentally,I am also following a thread discussing racism in another group I am in. Specifically,white privilege. And it is getting extremely ugly. Makes me really sad. About 15 of us get together every couple of weeks for lunch and have a blast. I`m afraid there are going to be a few empty chairs at our next getogether.


----------



## Trade

I grew up in Pinellas County Florida in the 1950's and 60's. Everything was segregated back then. Separate schools, separate neighborhoods, separate drinking fountains, separate rest rooms separate everything. And the separate stuff for the black people was way inferior to that of the whites. The black schools were run down dumps. The black drinking fountains had warm water. The gas stations would usually have three rest rooms. Men, Women, and Colored. We white people had access to the beautiful white sand Gulf beaches. The only black beach was this shitty one on Tampa bay that had a mud bottom and stunk to high heaven at low tide. I could go on and on, but basically it sucked to be black in Pinellas  County back then. Looking back on it, I don't know how black people got through that. I figure that if I had been born black instead of white I would be either dead or in prison now. Most likely dead. 

The first time I ever went to school with a black person was in junior college. And then it was like one or of white out of a couple of thousand. A lot of my friends growing up were racists. They weren't rabid dog racists but they were racist none the less. And I was pretty much a self centered asshole who went along to get along. To try to fit in with them I had a confederate flag license plate on the front of my car. We used the word ****** all the time. If you were in the mood to be nice you used "colored people". I wasn't Klu Klux Klan racist so I rationalized that to mean I was one of the good white people. I looked down on the "Crackers" too, but I accepted and was comfortable with the institutionalized racism that prevailed. So I stop trying to sugar coat it and own up to having been racist myself.   

  I'd like to think I've outgrown that shit now, but I'm not perfect. I always lock my car wherever I park, but if I am in a black neighborhood I am more deliberate about it. And I get pretty pissed if I get stuck at a traffic light next to a black guy that is playing loud rap music. In my mind I try to call him an asshole but sometimes the word ****** slips into my consciousness.


----------



## hearlady

That's refreshingly honest Trade. I think a lot of us grew up thinking it was OK to tell insensitive jokes or call names but as we grow older and wiser we try to be better people.


----------



## applecruncher

*@Trade*

I liked your post.  Tell it like it is, put it out there.  No pussyfooting around with excuses and justification. BAM! btw, I hate rap music and I have fits when a car in traffic or a parking lot plays that crap so loud it almost shatters the eardrums.  I hear some places have fines.

I've seen some race discussions where very quickly some people start in with the "What about OJ?" or "What about blacks rioting and looting?" or "What about blacks on welfare?" comments.  

NEXT:  I'm going to talk about interracial relationships/marriages (Yep, I'm gonna go there)

But for now real life summons me. Meanwhile, if anyone wants to get the ball rolling, feel free.


----------



## Kadee

I have mentioned my experience with what I considered racism in the past, that I took offence to ...

Im Australian born as was my parents, I’ve never had a DNA done but I believe our ancestors were Cornish/Irish .

My daughter married a young man from Vietnam ,in 1992 and had two daughters to him ,one weekend I was babysitting the girls who would have been about 4 and 6 years old at the time ....we were happily walking down the footpath to go riding on a nearby bicycle track ,when I neighbour came out of his house and told us in an aggressive manner  NOT walk on his side of the street ,..he said he didn’t want those “slope looking kids” walking on his side of the street ...I was disgusted  at grown adult 
treating little children that way


----------



## applecruncher

Before I get to the interracial relationship issue, something I meant to mention when I replied to Trade.

Never having visited the deep south, I never actually saw the "white only" signs on drinking fountains and restrooms.

But when I was a kid in the 1950s I was a voracious reader. I used to read the local newspaper and also the big Sunday paper which was published in Columbus, the capital of Ohio.  Of course I read the "funnies"/comics (Apt. 3-G, Mary Worth, Rex Morgan MD, Blondie), but I also read the classifieds. In the Help Wanted and also For Rent sections I can vividly remember ads that said "White Only" and "No coloreds" and also "No Japs or Jews".

I don't recall exactly when that crap stopped, but IIRC it was in the late 1960s.


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

Back in the 50s, Seventeen magazine was practically required reading for teen/preteen girls. I remember reading a short story about a girl and her daily life, giggling with friends over cute boys, what to wear and where to shop, homework, parents and other family members, and the really big deal: Prom. Trying on dresses, practicing the newest dances, makeup, hair, just the whole thing.

It was just an ordinary story about an ordinary girl, and I kept waiting for the point of it. The point was in the last sentence. "I am a *****." ***** because in the 50s, it wasn't "black" or "African American." 

Can you even imagine how courageous and controversial it was of Seventeen to print that story back then? My friends were surprised at the ending. It was an aha! moment for all of us because we lived so far north in a place so isolated and so cold that nobody moved there on purpose so most of us had never had a black friend or even seen anybody who didn't look just like us. But it did bring up a discussion of people who weren't just like us, and those were the native American kids. They weren't kids we'd ever interacted with at all because they lived on the reservation, and at that time they were still sent to government-sponsored boarding schools. Away from family. With white teachers.


----------



## hollydolly

I said I'm over my head with this discussion , and won't post any more... but I just have to say that despite the boarding houses with their No irish, No blacks, signs way back in the day (which was clearly personal prejudices) ...the one thing we never had was segregation of people at cafe's, bars, public toilets , drinking fountains or public places  etc... that's diabolical....

Can I just say...this discussion has been mainly about Racism towards Blacks and asians, understandable because in the USA you all have much more knowledge of that subject.....but of course we surely don't have to be reminded about the horrendous racism that went on towards jewish people... all over Europe as well as the Americas...

I've read so much about it... and how it came about...and I still do not understand it.  Amazingly this racism is still rife today..and according to the media rising even more again  in the UK..and other countries... why?..why?...does anyone have any definitive answers..


Sorry I'll bow out again... but I'm reading with interest...just thought I'd bring up the jewish problem for your views..


----------



## applecruncher

* GeorgiaXplant* - I loved Seventeen magazine, but what are the two words filtered out in your post? Is there some way you can say what they are, maybe phonetically? Or maybe someone else can tell me, I can't figure it out.


----------



## Shalimar

GeorgiaXplant said:


> Back in the 50s, Seventeen magazine was practically required reading for teen/preteen girls. I remember reading a short story about a girl and her daily life, giggling with friends over cute boys, what to wear and where to shop, homework, parents and other family members, and the really big deal: Prom. Trying on dresses, practicing the newest dances, makeup, hair, just the whole thing.
> 
> It was just an ordinary story about an ordinary girl, and I kept waiting for the point of it. The point was in the last sentence. "I am a *****." ***** because in the 50s, it wasn't "black" or "African American."
> 
> Can you even imagine how courageous and controversial it was of Seventeen to print that story back then? My friends were surprised at the ending. It was an aha! moment for all of us because we lived so far north in a place so isolated and so cold that nobody moved there on purpose so most of us had never had a black friend or even seen anybody who didn't look just like us. But it did bring up a discussion of people who weren't just like us, and those were the native American kids. They weren't kids we'd ever interacted with at all because they lived on the reservation, and at that time they were still sent to government-sponsored boarding schools. Away from family. With white teachers.




Here in Canada we still have First Nations people suffering from the traumatic effects of residential schools. Among the many ills, paedophilia was rampant, as were beatings etc. Racism? You bet, kids forceably taken from their parents on the Rez, not allowed to speak their indigenous language! Shamed and ridiculed. The United Chirch has apologised twice for their part in this tragedy. In many ways, aboriginal people are still denied parity with 

the rest of Canucks. It is our national shame that for so long  we allowed them to be invisible. It is getting better, but we have a long way to go. Too many lack safe water, decent housing, or adequate education. In the far north, medical care is spotty. Our Inuit suffer from TB. Appalling. We are not a third world country, are we?


----------



## BobF

applecruncher said:


> Before I get to the interracial relationship issue, something I meant to mention when I replied to Trade.
> 
> Never having visited the deep south, I never actually saw the "white only" signs on drinking fountains and restrooms.
> 
> But when I was a kid in the 1950s I was a voracious reader. I used to read the local newspaper and also the big Sunday paper which was published in Columbus, the capital of Ohio.  Of course I read the "funnies"/comics (Apt. 3-G, Mary Worth, Rex Morgan MD, Blondie), but I also read the classifieds. In the Help Wanted and also For Rent sections I can vividly remember ads that said "White Only" and "No coloreds" and also "No Japs or Jews".
> 
> I don't recall exactly when that crap stopped, but IIRC it was in the late 1960s.



I grew up in northern Ohio, near lake Erie, and race was not a problem here.   No special rest rooms, my grand mother rented rooms to students and she did have blacks included.   As far as I knew there was no racism in the US.

But not far south, in Cincinnati at a bus stop I found 'colored' restrooms.   Later on while in the Army and stationed in Virginia I was on a bus and sitting down about half way back I saw a lot of blacks standing while seats around me were empty.   I guess there was some sort of rule about no blacks could sit ahead of a white person.   I was slowly learning about race separation.   I stopped in a motel in Alabama or Georgia one time, and asked for a room.   I was refused as I was 'white' and this was a 'black' neighbor hood. 

So glad times have changed and things are much smoother now.   Still have some problems in major cities.

I did not know about race problems as a kid.   Found out while in the Army and moving in southern cities and states in the 1950's.   I was in Ft Knox KY, Ft Gordon GA, and Ft Monroe VA.


----------



## Sunny

This is a great discussion. I've enjoyed reading it.

About the question of why the N word is supposedly all right when used by black people but not by anyone else, here's a guess on my part:  Maybe it's a way of disempowering the word. If it's used jokingly, commonly, all the time, including by the people it refers to, maybe it loses its capacity to hurt?  (Probably not, but that may be the thinking behind it.)


----------



## fuzzybuddy

I grew up in one of  the super white Mass. towns. There was a Black girl in my class for a couple of weeks, but I never saw a N***o until I went into the Navy. There was a Black guy, who saw me looking at him. He showed that the 'color' didn't wash off, and he let me feel his hair. It was soft. I've always been a Liberal Democrat, fighting for Black equality. But only a few months ago, I passed a car filled with Blacks in the parking lot of a mall. They were playing super loud music.  Teenagers. I thought " damned N*****".  Sadly, it's in me.


----------



## applecruncher

_*(DiSCLAIMER: I'm trying very hard say "some", "most", "many" when I refer to whites, blacks, or any ethnic group. I know there are any exceptions. If I neglect to say that it's a mistake on my part. I only speak for one person - myself. There is only one person whose true innermost feelings I'm privy to - mine.)
*_


_"Interracial marriage in the United States has been fully legal in all U.S. states since the 1967 Supreme Court decision that deemed anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional, with many states choosing to legalize interracial marriage at much earlier dates. Anti-miscegenation laws have played a large role in defining racial identity and enforcing the racial hierarchy. The United States has many ethnic and racial groups, and interracial marriage is fairly common among most of them. Interracial marriages increased from 2% of married couples in 1970 to 7% in 2005[1][2] and 8.4% in 2010.[3]

According to a Pew Research Center analysis of census data conducted in 2013, 12% of newlyweds married someone of a different race. (This share does not take into account the “interethnic” marriages between Hispanics and non-Hispanics).[4] And, most Americans say they approve of racial or ethnic intermarriage – not just in the abstract, but in their own families. More than six-in-ten say it would be fine with them if a family member told them they were going to marry someone from any of three major race/ethnic groups other than their own."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage#Legality_


So, why is it that some people have in the past and still do get upset about interracial dating/marriages?

- "If they have children the kids won't know what they are. I'm just worried about the children."
- "The Bible says.......(whatever)"

_^^What.a.crock.of.sh@t. _

There is only one reason a person is bothered about someone else's interracial relationship:  because they feel one race is superior to the other.

If other people decide to date/marry someone from another race it's nobody else's business. The kids will be fine.  If you're against interracial marriage, fine.......then don't date/marry outside your own race. And don't give me that Bible nonsense. Some of the biggest hypocrites I know sit in church every week and use the Bible to try to justify their behavior.

There are several interracial marriages in my family. Most involve black male and a female of another race. A few involve black female and a male of another race. Most have been married a long time. They have children, and they are doing well.  They don't need anyone to feel sorry for them or help them figure out "what they are".

While I'm on a roll, it's not true that all black women resent it when a black man is with a white woman.  Some do.  But most could not care less.  To take it a step further, when I  saw/see a white woman with a thuggy, unkept, black guy who won't work I think "better her than me". If some women (regardless of race) are so desperate to get a man they feel they have to settle for some guy who just wants to lay around, make babies, and doesn't and never will have a pot to piss in, well, good luck with that. Many black women agree with me. Not all, but many.

OTOH, I know a lot of good black men who are successful, hard workers, nice guys to one degree or another. Most are with black women, some are with women of other races. I have dated black, white, Indian, and Hispanic men in my lifetime. While some black women that I know have dated men of different races, most tend to date within their race.


----------



## tnthomas

> - "If they have children the kids won't know what they are. I'm just worried about the children."
> - "The Bible says.......(whatever)"



I have heard both of these phrases before, the first from my mother when I came home (from Virginia while in the Army) on leave, and made mention of my black girlfriend.

The second phrase heard years later(late 90s) while in SC in an entertainment venue with former fiancé .  An employee there uttered the 





> "The Bible says.......(whatever)"


 phrase with earshot.

We just ignored the _ignorance_.


----------



## treeguy64

Cap'nSacto said:


> treeguy64; "Racism is deeply ingrained in all of us, (most likely) on a genetic level."
> 
> Not on a genetic level, no. Racism is 100% learned.
> 
> I can explain a couple of reasons why very few Asians have children out of wedlock. Marriages are still arranged in many Asian countries. At the very least, marriage is strongly encouraged and expected. Also, in a majority of Asian countries, there is no shame attached when a woman gets an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy whether she's married or not.



We must agree to disagree.  The genetic level comes into the equation for reasons I cited in my op, and they are correct.  As far as learning to be prejudiced against this group or that one, I agree that one is taught.  However, tracing that teaching wayyyyyy back to early man, and even before the ascendancy of our species, the genetic groundwork was put down in early intraspecies dealings.


----------



## helenbacque

I was born southern and grew up in a very 'southern' town, not so much geographically as in spirit.  My town was segregated .... schools, rest rooms, hotels, restaurants, water fountains, everything.  Being young and insensitive, I didn't question it.  It just was.  My step-father tended to be racist but my mother taught me to judge people on their actions, not on the color of their skin.  Thank you, Mom.  

Racism is not genetic.  Babies are not born racists or bigots.  It is a learned trait and it's learned at home. And it's alive and well.  The Civil Rights Act and public opinion drove racism underground where it festered and grew and as soon as it was safe, it blossomed again.  

If one wonders why segregation the 'separate but equal' doctrine did not work, read the book "_Something Must Be Done About Prince Edward County" _ by Kristen Greene.


----------



## applecruncher

I agree that racism is NOT genetic.
But racism is not always learned at home - often/sometimes, but not always.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

treeguy64 said:


> We must agree to disagree.  The genetic level comes into the equation for reasons I cited in my op, and they are correct.  As far as learning to be prejudiced against this group or that one, I agree that one is taught.  However, tracing that teaching wayyyyyy back to early man, and even before the ascendancy of our species, the genetic groundwork was put down in early intraspecies dealings.



I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't call it racism. imo, what you're talking about is more in line with the innate behaviors of "survival of the species" and "dominance of species".


----------



## Trade

BobF said:


> I grew up in northern Ohio, near lake Erie, and race was not a problem here.



I just love it when a white guy says "No racial problems around here".


----------



## GeorgiaXplant

applecruncher said:


> * GeorgiaXplant* - I loved Seventeen magazine, but what are the two words filtered out in your post? Is there some way you can say what they are, maybe phonetically? Or maybe someone else can tell me, I can't figure it out.



N***o! I didn't know that was a word that was banned.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

My father married a Korean woman. Had he married a black woman, they would definitely have encountered more prejudice and misery. As it was, they did encounter a lot of presupposition, such as the presumption that my mother, being Asian, was subservient, completely "unselfish", attentive to his every whim. Most men he met told him he was lucky to have married an Asian woman. There was also a misconception that her genitals were not typical - "sideways" and "slanted" were the words the misinformed used - and he was asked about that a number of times.

That sounds silly and stupid, with no basis in fact or even logic. But that's what racism is. That describes it to a T.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> _*(DiSCLAIMER: I'm trying very hard say "some", "most", "many" when I refer to whites, blacks, or any ethnic group. I know there are any exceptions. If I neglect to say that it's a mistake on my part. I only speak for one person - myself. There is only one person whose true innermost feelings I'm privy to - mine.)
> *_
> 
> 
> _"Interracial marriage in the United States has been fully legal in all U.S. states since the 1967 Supreme Court decision that deemed anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional, with many states choosing to legalize interracial marriage at much earlier dates. Anti-miscegenation laws have played a large role in defining racial identity and enforcing the racial hierarchy. The United States has many ethnic and racial groups, and interracial marriage is fairly common among most of them. Interracial marriages increased from 2% of married couples in 1970 to 7% in 2005[1][2] and 8.4% in 2010.[3]
> 
> According to a Pew Research Center analysis of census data conducted in 2013, 12% of newlyweds married someone of a different race. (This share does not take into account the “interethnic” marriages between Hispanics and non-Hispanics).[4] And, most Americans say they approve of racial or ethnic intermarriage – not just in the abstract, but in their own families. More than six-in-ten say it would be fine with them if a family member told them they were going to marry someone from any of three major race/ethnic groups other than their own."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage#Legality_
> 
> 
> So, why is it that some people have in the past and still do get upset about interracial dating/marriages?
> 
> - "If they have children the kids won't know what they are. I'm just worried about the children."
> - "The Bible says.......(whatever)"
> 
> _^^What.a.crock.of.sh@t. _
> 
> There is only one reason a person is bothered about someone else's interracial relationship:  because they feel one race is superior to the other.
> 
> If other people decide to date/marry someone from another race it's nobody else's business. The kids will be fine.  If you're against interracial marriage, fine.......then don't date/marry outside your own race. And don't give me that Bible nonsense. Some of the biggest hypocrites I know sit in church every week and use the Bible to try to justify their behavior.
> 
> There are several interracial marriages in my family. Most involve black male and a female of another race. A few involve black female and a male of another race. Most have been married a long time. They have children, and they are doing well.  They don't need anyone to feel sorry for them or help them figure out "what they are".
> 
> While I'm on a roll, it's not true that all black women resent it when a black man is with a white woman.  Some do.  But most could not care less.  To take it a step further, when I  saw/see a white woman with a thuggy, unkept, black guy who won't work I think "better her than me". If some women (regardless of race) are so desperate to get a man they feel they have to settle for some guy who just wants to lay around, make babies, and doesn't and never will have a pot to piss in, well, good luck with that. Many black women agree with me. Not all, but many.
> 
> OTOH, I know a lot of good black men who are successful, hard workers, nice guys to one degree or another. Most are with black women, some are with women of other races. I have dated black, white, Indian, and Hispanic men in my lifetime. While some black women that I know have dated men of different races, most tend to date within their race.



I've been married to a black woman for 21 years now. It's my second marriage so we don't have kids. When I was young the thought of marrying outside of my race just never occurred to me. If for no other reason than the races just did not mix back then where I was. I mean not at all. I never even had an actual conversation with a black person until I was in the Air Force. And even then they were pretty superficial. No soul bearing or anything like that.   

I don't even think about it us being of different races anymore. I haven't noticed us being treated any different because of it. Well I take that back. Occasionally white people will seem to go out of their way to be nice to us I suppose trying to show how tolerant they are. It was kind of interesting when we went to my 50th High School reunion and it seemed like there were people trying to compete with each other to get us to sit at their table for dinner. I've always been an introvert and was pretty much a social outcast in High School. Finding a place to sit in the lunch room where I wouldn't get the side eye was a challenge. Of course that's pretty standard in High School. If you stray outside of your clique you quickly get put in your place.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

Trade said:


> I've been married to a black woman for 21 years now. It's my second marriage so we don't have kids. When I was young the thought of marrying outside of my race just never occurred to me. If for no other reason than the races just did not mix back then where I was. I mean not at all. I never even had an actual conversation with a black person until I was in the Air Force. And even then they were pretty superficial. No soul bearing or anything like that.
> 
> I don't even think about it us being of different races anymore. I haven't noticed us being treated any different because of it. Well I take that back. Occasionally white people will seem to go out of their way to be nice to us I suppose trying to show how tolerant they are. It was kind of interesting when we went to my 50th High School reunion and it seemed like there were people trying to compete with each other to get us to sit at their table for dinner. I've always been an introvert and was pretty much a social outcast in High School. Finding a place to sit in the lunch room where I wouldn't get the side eye was a challenge. Of course that's pretty standard in High School. If you stray outside of your clique you quickly get put in your place.



Though superficial, a marked improvement over the years prior to the late 60s.


----------



## applecruncher

Cap'nSacto said:


> My father married a Korean woman. Had he married a black woman, they would definitely have encountered more prejudice and misery. As it was, they did encounter a lot of presupposition, such as the presumption that my mother, being Asian, was subservient, completely "unselfish", attentive to his every whim. Most men he met told him he was lucky to have married an Asian woman.* There was also a misconception that her genitals were not typical - "sideways" and "slanted" were the words the misinformed used - and he was asked about that a number of times.*
> 
> That sounds silly and stupid, with no basis in fact or even logic. But that's what racism is. That describes it to a T.



I've lost count of the times I've heard white people say that black men have huge penises. (ridiculous    )  But I have to wonder how many penises one has to 'examine' or _whatever _in order to make that assessment.  :wink: :laugh:

When I was in college I heard some girl say she was told black people have tails. WHAT?? mg1:   Years later I asked my dad about this wild rumor, and he said that it was circulating when he was in the service (he was a WWII vet).


----------



## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> I've lost count of the times I've heard white people say that black men have huge penises. (ridiculous    )  But I have to wonder how many penises one has to 'examine' or _whatever _in order to make that assessment.  :wink: :laugh:
> 
> When I was in college I heard some girl say she was told black people have tails. WHAT?? mg1:   Years later I asked my dad about this wild rumor, and he said that it was circulating when he was in the service (he was a WWII vet).



So, it would follow that, like the chauvinists my father encountered, lots of white women probably said the same thing to black women; "Lucky"

BTW, it's rumored (or once was) that Asian men were "slighted" in that regard. >snort<


----------



## applecruncher

Trade said:


> I've been married to a black woman for 21 years now. It's my second marriage so we don't have kids. When I was young the thought of marrying outside of my race just never occurred to me. If for no other reason than the races just did not mix back then where I was. I mean not at all. I never even had an actual conversation with a black person until I was in the Air Force. And even then they were pretty superficial. No soul bearing or anything like that.
> 
> I don't even think about it us being of different races anymore. I haven't noticed us being treated any different because of it. Well I take that back. Occasionally white people will seem to go out of their way to be nice to us I suppose trying to show how tolerant they are. It was kind of interesting when we went to my 50th High School reunion and it seemed like there were people trying to compete with each other to get us to sit at their table for dinner. I've always been an introvert and was pretty much a social outcast in High School. Finding a place to sit in the lunch room where I wouldn't get the side eye was a challenge. Of course that's pretty standard in High School. If you stray outside of your clique you quickly get put in your place.



*@Trade

*In post #149 in the High School picture thread you look very much like a handsome first cousin of mine. (I thought you might be black or bi-racial).  He was a year ahead of me in high school, and he passed away earlier this year.

On another note, interesting how interracial couple _Lucy & Ricky Ricardo _(white woman/Cuban man) were not only accepted but adored. :shrug:


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> I've lost count of the times I've heard white people say that black men have huge penises.



They can also all Bench Press at least 300 lbs and run the 100 meters in less than 10 seconds.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> *
> 
> ...*interesting how interracial couple _Lucy & Ricky Ricardo _(white woman/Cuban man) were not only accepted but adored. :shrug:



Well, heck yeah...he was a drummer with a cute accent and festive sleeves.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> (I thought you might be black or bi-racial).



Nah, that's just my Florida Tan that I kept back in the day. 


View attachment 43474

According to the test tube of spit I sent to ancestry.com  I'm 100% European.


----------



## treeguy64

Cap'nSacto said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't call it racism. imo, what you're talking about is more in line with the innate behaviors of "survival of the species" and "dominance of species".



i agree with you. My whole point was that the beginnings of racism had its roots in the natural behaviors you mention:  If you didn't notice differences between your species and another, and later, your group/tribe and another, the odds of your survival were decreased. The trait to notice differences was advantageous.  We still have it.


----------



## tnthomas

@Trade,

You could pass for Hispanic, Cuban since you were in Fl.


----------



## RadishRose

tnthomas said:


> @Trade,
> 
> You could pass for Hispanic, Cuban since you were in Fl.



No, that's only because he's holding a Chihuahua. I would guess Italian or Greek. 

I would have wanted to date you, Trade!

View attachment 43477


----------



## Trade

RadishRose said:


> No, that's only because he's holding a Chihuahua.



Actually that's some kind of Toy Terrier that belonged to our next door neighbors. 




RadishRose said:


> I would have wanted to date you, Trade!
> 
> View attachment 43477




You would have had to ask me. I was too shy to make a move back then.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

treeguy64 said:


> i agree with you. My whole point was that the beginnings of racism had its roots in the natural behaviors you mention:  If you didn't notice differences between your species and another, and later, your group/tribe and another, the odds of your survival were decreased. The trait to notice differences was advantageous.  We still have it.



I hate beating the heck out of this, but the differences you refer to had nothing at all to do with race. I wouldn't doubt cases of physical differences, including skin color, inspiring one tribe  to decide to conquer another, but that is not in our DNA. It isn't a gene.

If I am wrong about that, please contact someone intimately involved in the science of genetics, post haste, and inform them, so that they may isolate this gene, and splice, alter, or eradicate it all together for the betterment of mankind!


----------



## Trade

tnthomas said:


> @Trade,
> 
> You could pass for Hispanic, Cuban since you were in Fl.





View attachment 43481


----------



## tnthomas

RadishRose said:


> No, that's only because he's holding a Chihuahua. I would guess Italian or Greek.
> 
> 
> View attachment 43477




It can be said that ethnicity is _in the eye of the beholder_.

Oye,   watch this little Seinfeld clip:


----------



## Cap'nSacto

tnthomas said:


> It can be said that ethnicity is _in the eye of the beholder_.
> 
> Oye,   watch this little Seinfeld clip:



hahaha!


----------



## applecruncher

*@tnthomas

*That episode of Seinfeld was a dandy. :yes: Also the cigar store Indian.


----------



## Big Horn

Here's an actual photograph: not quite the same as the cartoon.  Che Guevara was Caucasian.  Someone, however, deemed it necessary to change that.


----------



## Shalimar

Trade said:


> Nah, that's just my Florida Tan that I kept back in the day.
> 
> 
> View attachment 43474
> 
> According to the test tube of spit I sent to ancestry.com  I'm 100% European.


Handsome man.


----------



## tnthomas

Big Horn said:


> Here's an actual photograph: not quite the same as the cartoon.  Che Guevara was Caucasian.  Someone, however, deemed it necessary to change that.



Che Guevara- born in Argentina, whose population is between 81.9% and 96% of European decent.   Who would have 'changed' his ethnicity, and for what purpose?


----------



## RadishRose

The other night I watched a documentary on Youtube that proves that over 4 years of research, Neanderthal genes are in today's Cro Magnon (or Early Modern Man) species. Usually when 2 different species mate, the offspring is sterile. It stops there. 

Not in this case. The two did inter breed and so did their offspring. They said the people with the highest percentage of Neanderthal genes are located in southern or middle Europe; especially near Tuscany, less in Asia and practically none in Africa. And, they were smart, too.

It was so fascinating to me, I'll place the link for another time, since this thread seems to be more intent on the sad aspects of racial problems today.


----------



## Trade

Big Horn said:


> Here's an actual photograph: not quite the same as the cartoon.  Che Guevara was Caucasian.  Someone, however, deemed it necessary to change that.



Lots of Hispanics are Caucasian as was Che. Where do you get that anyone tried to change his ethnicity?   

This is what he looked like when he was younger and without the facial hair. 

View attachment 43486


----------



## Trade

Shalimar said:


> Handsome man.



You know I'm very vulnerable to that kind of flattery.


----------



## nvtribefan

BobF said:


> I grew up in northern Ohio, near lake Erie, and race was not a problem here.



Calling BS here.  I lived in the Cleveland area from the mid-fifties to the mid-seventies, and there was indeed racism.  I have family there and visit regularly, and it hasn't disappeared yet.


----------



## Trade

I had almost forgotten this, but when I was at the University of Florida in 1969 the off campus dump that I was living in was firebombed. There was a lot of racial tension going on all over the country at the time and I remember we had a few days where Gainesville had some riots and a curfew was imposed. Three of us were living in this little dump on NW 4th street within walking distance of campus. I was asleep in the back bedroom. It was actually kind of an addition to the original house. My two room mates were gone. Anyway I heard this sound of breaking glass from the kitchen. I didn't think much of it. My two room mates were in Delta Tau Delta which I think is the fraternity that inspired the movie "Animal House". So I figured it was one of them that had come home drunk and dropped something of glass containing an alcoholic beverage of some kind. So I tried to go back to sleep but then I heard the sound of water dripping. Then I smelled smoke, so I opened the door to the kitchen and it was on fire and there was water dripping from pipes in the attic that had apparently broken from the heat or something. 

That kitchen of ours was really filthy. If you wanted to leave somebody a note on the refrigerator you didn't need a pencil or paper. All you had to do was take your finger and use it to write the note in all the grease that had accumulated on the surface of the fridge. There where so many roaches in there that if when you made toast in the toaster you would first push the thing down without putting in the bread and wait for all the roaches to run out. Then after that you could put your bread in and toast it. You probably think I'm making this up, but I'm not. Anyway I saw the kitchen was on fire and the kitchen window was broken so I went out the back door. Then I jogged up to the fire station that was only about two blocks away and told them our place was on fire and they sent a truck down and put it out in just a few minutes. 

They found a broken wine bottle in the kitchen that had been filled with gas and lit with a rag for a fuse and thrown through the kitchen window. Classic Molotov cocktail. Who knows why we were targeted? One of my room mates, Scot, was a bit of an asshole and one day when there were some black kids playing in the street in front of our place he had gunned his car and driven straight at them and they had to run to get out of the way. That might have been why. Or more likely since we lived right on the edge of where the black section started and there was racial unrest going on, we might have just been the nearest target of opportunity. I acted outraged but really I thought it was kind of cool and exciting to have been firebombed since I wasn't hurt and none of my stuff got damaged. Plus it gave us an excuse to break our lease and move out of that dump which we all wanted to. We really left that place a mess but the fire damage covered that. I suspect Cecil our landlord got a nice insurance settlement to cover his costs of rehabbing the place. We had painted the living room walls and ceiling black inspired by the Rolling Stones song "Paint it Black" that was popular at that time. I wonder how many coats of paint it took to cover that.


----------



## Big Horn

Trade said:


> Lots of Hispanics are Caucasian as was Che. Where do you get that anyone tried to change his ethnicity?


Post #85: your post.  What can you tell us about it: specifically, where it was published and by whom?


----------



## BobF

nvtribefan said:


> Calling BS here.  I lived in the Cleveland area from the mid-fifties to the mid-seventies, and there was indeed racism.  I have family there and visit regularly, and it hasn't disappeared yet.



For you it may be BS, I am speaking of earlier days in Ohio and a bit further west.  After 57 years away I am back and doing fine, we have a mixed population here still but no signs of race problem still.

Still not as nice as I remember my westward adventures of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and an eastward Florida.   Wish I had never moved back to Ohio a year and a half ago.

Of those states I have mentioned I would go back to southern Arizona, New Mexico, but none of the others.   My brother lives in Las Vegas, I have visited there but doubt I would like it.   I have visited on different times in the Reno area but again not sure if I would like it there.

Smaller towns seem safer to me.


----------



## Trade

Big Horn said:


> Post #85: your post.  What can you tell us about it: specifically, where it was published and by whom?



I did an image search. It's art, not a photograph. Where is this change of ethnicity crap of yours coming from?


----------



## applecruncher

Upthread hollydolly said:



> Can I just say...this discussion has been mainly about Racism towards Blacks and asians, understandable because in the USA you all have much more knowledge of that subject.....but of course we surely don't have to be reminded about the horrendous racism that went on towards jewish people... all over Europe as well as the Americas...
> 
> I've read so much about it... and how it came about...and I still do not understand it.  Amazingly this racism is still rife today..and according to the media rising even more again  in the UK..and other countries... why?..why?...does anyone have any definitive answers..
> 
> 
> Sorry I'll bow out again... but I'm reading with interest...just thought I'd bring up the jewish problem for your views..



Quite a few people in the US say they don't believe the Holocaust really happened - that it's just "urban legend".    If such a notion were not so horrifying it would almost be comical.

Yes, there has been and still is a lot of prejudice towards Jews in the US and also other countries.

I personally knew two concentration camp survivors (both deceased now). The man had that branded number on his hand.  Did he invent his experience and have that number tattooed on his hand just for attention?  Umm, I don't think so.

My favorite actor was Marlon Brando.  Here is a good scene from "Roots: the next generation". Brando played George Lincoln Rockwell, founder of the American Nazi Party. James Earl Jones played Alex Haley, who worked for Playboy magazine and was sent to interview Rockwell.


----------



## applecruncher

This is from the apartheid movie "A Dry White Season" with Marlon Brando and Donald Sutherland:


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> QUESTION: Why is it wrong for whites to use the N-word, but it's okay for blacks to use it when talking to each other or in rap music? ANSWER: It isn't.  I know some blacks use the word and think it's okay in music, but I don't feel it's EVER okay, and people I'm related to and associate with agree with me.



I think the context matters. Sometimes when black guys use I find it absolutely hilarious.   

Like in this scene from the movie "Training Day"






I even think that in rare instances a white person can get by using it. But they would have to clear a much higher bar for obvious reasons.


----------



## applecruncher

*@ Trade

*I didn't like "Training Day", and I was disappointed  that Denzel won an Academy Award for his performance in that movie.  I've enjoyed his work in so many other roles, although he also won an Oscar for "Glory".


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> *@ Trade
> 
> *I didn't like "Training Day", and I was disappointed  that Denzel won an Academy Award for his performance in that movie.  I've enjoyed his work in so many other roles, although he also won an Oscar for "Glory".



Guess we have different taste in movies. I thought training day was awesome. But then Denzel Washington and Ethan Hawke are two of my favorite actors. I like them in just about anything. And with both of them together that made it even better.


----------



## Big Horn

Trade said:


> I did an image search. It's art, not a photograph. Where is this change of ethnicity crap of yours coming from?


Your post.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> Something I've noticed and experienced, especially when I was working. (This doesn't apply to all white people, but suffice to say it happened a lot.)
> 
> Often when a white person meets or is assigned to work closely or travel with a black co-worker, the white person will slyly bring up the subject of race by saying "they had a black roommate in college" or "a black couple just bought a house down the street and they seem like really nice people", etc. etc.
> 
> This is kinda silly....they go out of their way to try to convince the black person they have nothing against blacks. But when people did this, I found it offensive because it showed they didn't see me as a person - they saw me as a black person.



You mean like this? 

http://blackpeopleloveus.com/


----------



## hearlady

Trade said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> http://blackpeopleloveus.com/



It's true, there's a site for everything! Lol


----------



## applecruncher

*@ Trade

*omg  :rofl:  YES!

Once during a job interview the dept. director of a state govt. agency said to me "You're so articulate; your diction is SO good!" This was in 1985.  (I got the job, but I shoulda gone _upside her head_.)

In 1971 I interviewed for an office job at a very  large corporation (they had NO blacks in the office except in the mailroom).  The personnel manager said "We don't have many black employees (he whispered "black"). But once you prove yourself you should be okay." :wtf: (I got the job, but I shoulda gone _upside his head_.)

In both these situations, I'm so glad I didn't put my hands on my hips and do da neckroll. :lofl:


----------



## applecruncher

*@ Trade*, this is YOUR fault...... This is a serious thread and I'm getting silly. :laugh:

I love me some Tom Hanks!


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> *@ Trade*, this is YOUR fault...... This is a serious thread and I'm getting silly. :laugh:
> 
> I love me some Tom Hanks!



He's got the look down pretty good in that video.


----------



## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> Quite a few people in the US say they don't believe the Holocaust really happened - that it's just "urban legend".    If such a notion were not so horrifying it would almost be comical.
> 
> Yes, there has been and still is a lot of prejudice towards Jews in the US and also other countries.
> 
> I personally knew two concentration camp survivors (both deceased now).  The man had that branded number on his hand.  Did he invent his  experience and have that number tattooed on his hand just for attention?   Umm, I don't think so.
> 
> My favorite actor was Marlon Brando.  Here is a good scene from "Roots:  the next generation". Brando played George Lincoln Rockwell, founder of  the American Nazi Party. James Earl Jones played Alex Haley, who worked  for Playboy magazine and was sent to interview Rockwell.



I could take a wild guess as to 'which' people _those_ are...but that would be getting too political.





applecruncher said:


> *@ Trade*, this is YOUR fault...... This is a serious thread and I'm getting silly. :laugh:
> 
> I love me some Tom Hanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



"Doug"(Tom Hanks) was nailin' it!   That must have been a recent edition of Black Jeopardy, judging from the references to present day people/events.   I believe I've seen an earlier rendition from several years back...


----------



## applecruncher

btw, up thread I referred to a 1971 job interview.  After I was there about a year, they hired one black male engineer and one white female engineer.  Wow, that's PROGRESS, huh?


----------



## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> btw, up thread I referred to a 1971 job interview.  After I was there about a year, they hired one black male engineer and one white female engineer.  Wow, that's PROGRESS, huh?



Geez, 1971, racial equality was still in it's infancy even-though the 13th Amendment was passed 107 years prior.


----------



## Trade

Anyone want to talk about the fear that white people have of black people? Especially the fear that white males have of black males? I know when I was growing up it was pretty much ingrained in me that black men were physically superior to us white males. Stronger, faster, and of course with bigger penises. But our saving grace was that us white guys were smarter. 

The character Clubber Lang character played by Mr. T pretty much played into and reinforced those stereotypes.


----------



## CeeCee

I just watched a comic on Netflix and I hope I can say this on here...your comment reminded me of it.

penises come in 4 sizes...small, medium, large and Black.


----------



## Trade

CeeCee said:


> I hope I can say this on here...



Why not? We're all adults. What are we supposed to do? Pretend like we've never heard this stuff before?


----------



## tnthomas

I read somewhere the the _big black penis_ story originated back in the days of slavery, ostensibly to frighten the slave-holder's female family members from going down to the slave quarters for a _'visit_'.

However, that story may have back-fired,  having unintended consequences...


----------



## applecruncher

It's not like we haven't heard stupid remarks from people who aren't very bright.


----------



## hearlady

I'm glad the thread has been lighthearted.
Some of the things that people call racism are not. They are prejudice or stereotyping and the latter can be pretty funny sometimes.
 I think people  need to try to know one another and talk, joke, and share a laugh.
The only way I know how to combat racism is more of this.


----------



## hearlady

Well, not the ONLY way but one way.


----------



## applecruncher

Has anyone heard/seen Jeff Foxworthy lately?  I've always liked him. I cringed a few times at his "redneck" jokes - although not racist.  I thought some of them were really funny, and his delivery and expression was on target.

I haven't heard much about him since he hosted "Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?"  Cute show.


----------



## JaniceM

Granny B. said:


> Thanks for starting this thread.  This is a subject worth discussing until it is no longer a problem--unfortunately, probably forever, since *humans seem to fear/dislike anyone who differs from themselves.*  I hope overall things are getting better.



(I haven't been on forum for awhile, noticed this topic is similar to one on another forum, and also the subject of a blog post I wrote but haven't had time to post, so I hope it's o.k. if I start by replying to yours)

I fully believe the main reason it's been worsening in recent years is the _divisive _approaches of 'multiculturalism and diversity education.'  All these approaches do is emphasize 'differences,' and that's not the way to encourage people to interact and get along with each other.


----------



## applecruncher

@Janice M
How does educating people about other cultures make them racist?


----------



## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> @Janice M
> How does educating people about other cultures make them racist?



It's not a matter of educating people about other cultures, it's about emphasizing _Differences.  _
In this locale, for example, school kids and adults alike could learn anything they wanted to know simply by becoming friends with other people.  But they don't.  Instead, it's about (whichever) 'culture,' (whichever) 'community,' and being encouraged to see other people as different from themselves.


----------



## applecruncher

JaniceM said:


> It's not a matter of educating people about other cultures, it's about emphasizing _Differences.  _
> In this locale, for example, school kids and adults alike could learn anything they wanted to know simply by becoming friends with other people.  But they don't.  Instead, it's about (whichever) 'culture,' (whichever) 'community,' and being encouraged to see other people as different from themselves.



But, assuming that's true, how has that made people divided and racist? I'm still not following you. How has that made this country worse?


----------



## Shalimar

Perhaps this thread is not really about racism in countries other than America? If so, I apologise for my contribution in advance. I am confused. I live in a multicultural society. Providing they obey our laws, people can be as diverse as they wish. 

We believe it strengthens us a nation. I believe that it is not necessary for us all to be the same in order to view each other with mutual respect. I welcome the opportunity through my work with refugees, etc, and 

friends of different cultural heritage, to grow as a person. Is this not a good thing? I would find a homogenous society depressingly vanilla. Not to suggest that Canada is above racism, sadly we are not. We are still under construction as far as 

that goes. We are currently undergoing a period of shame over the very belated realisation of just now marginal are the lives of many indigenous Canadians. Several years ago, we were cited by Amnesty International for the lack of action by our previous govts over the decades of unsolved disappearances of hundreds of Aboriginal women.


----------



## Warrigal

Sunny said:


> This is a great discussion. I've enjoyed reading it.
> 
> About the question of why the N word is supposedly all right when used by black people but not by anyone else, here's a guess on my part:  Maybe it's a way of disempowering the word. If it's used jokingly, commonly, all the time, including by the people it refers to, maybe it loses its capacity to hurt?  (Probably not, but that may be the thinking behind it.)


My daughter spent years 5 and 6 at a multiethnic school.    At that time 'wog' was a common insult thrown at ME people. Fair skinned Aussies were called 'skips' after Skippy the Bush Kangaroo.

She and her friends decided to take this on and proudly wore the wog label. At the same time Lebanese comedians were weakening the insult  value of this word with stage shows like 'Wogs out of work. 

During WW II Aussies were defending Tobruk harbour and they were  besieged by German troops seeking a port for supplies to support their desert column. The defenders refused to give in and the German propaganda machine labelled them the Rats of Tobruk. I don't know how the British reacted to this intended insult but our men adopted it as a badge of honour. Ever since the Rats have been revered by Australians.


----------



## rkunsaw

I've been thinking about this and from my viewpoint I believe racism is more common in large cities because the races seem  to separate themselves. I hear on the news about "black communities", Hispanic communities" and such. 
I live in a small town where there are no such separation. People of all races are scattered all over. I've never lived in a big city so I can only guess but I think if the people were scattered about in big cities like they are in small towns there would be less racism.


----------



## Aunt Bea

In my city the various communities have more to do with poverty than ethnicity or race, I think it would actually be nice to live in a city with thriving ethnic communities.


----------



## hearlady

JaniceM said:


> (I haven't been on forum for awhile, noticed this topic is similar to one on another forum, and also the subject of a blog post I wrote but haven't had time to post, so I hope it's o.k. if I start by replying to yours)
> 
> I fully believe the main reason it's been worsening in recent years is the _divisive _approaches of 'multiculturalism and diversity education.'  All these approaches do is emphasize 'differences,' and that's not the way to encourage people to interact and get along with each other.



When multiculturalism is taught as diversity education does it feel more like Americans being taught to assimilate to other cultures? 
If taught as part of a geography class then it becomes understanding of where we all came from before we assimilated to being diverse Americans who are willing to accept and celebrate what we've learned. 
I'm so glad I know about and have learned to cook foods with ingredients I never grew up with. 
We've used a pinata, etc, etc.
Maybe some people feel it's forced. 
Applecruncher, you mentioned integration was necessary. Do you feel the same about diversity education?


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> Has anyone heard/seen Jeff Foxworthy lately?  I've always liked him. I cringed a few times at his "redneck" jokes - although not racist.  I thought some of them were really funny, and his delivery and expression was on target.



I'm more of a Louis CK fan. But warning, he uses some rough language.


----------



## applecruncher

rkunsaw said:


> I've been thinking about this and from my viewpoint I believe racism is more common in large cities because the races seem  to separate themselves. I hear on the news about "black communities", Hispanic communities" and such.
> I live in a small town where there are no such separation. People of all races are scattered all over. I've never lived in a big city so I can only guess but I think if the people were scattered about in big cities like they are in small towns there would be less racism.



I've lived in a large city for over 40 years and the races don't separate themselves.

In many cities/towns as soon as minorities moved into an area whites would move to get away from them.  It was known as White Flight.

I'm not buying the theory that minorities are to blame for the racism displayed towards them. That's grasping at straws.


----------



## Trade

Warrigal said:


> Fair skinned Aussies were called 'skips' after Skippy the Bush Kangaroo.



That one really hits my funny bone! I think because when I was a kid a friend had a dog named "Skippy". Anf after a while that name morphed into "Skippy-doodle."

And then later it became "Dippy-scootle". They all had heavy southern accents and I can still remember how it sounded when they called that dog to come home. 

"Dippy-Scoodle"!

:lofl:


----------



## Gary O'

Haven’t read all the posts
Not gonna
But
Here’s my two pence; 

We’re quite spoiled here in the US
All of us

We conjure up stuff 



Lived a few other places on this globe
Various cultures, people
Learned one thing
If under the roof of an individual’s culture…
That’s the one to abide by

Man, what a bland world we’d live in if there was only one race/culture


Still
I’m not yet accustomed to dining on dog


----------



## tnthomas

RadishRose said:


> I agree on your basis' from racism, AC but-
> 
> For some of us, there *is* a base of fear. Great fear. As stupid as this sounds now, to me, a small child in an all white neighborhood, things on TV made huge impressions.
> 
> TV show and movies which featured "the Natives" scared the hell out of me! Tarzan, Ramar of the Jungle, certain cartoons, etc. featured black people with scary painted faces, spears and were always ready to kill white people, or so it seemed. I even had nightmares.
> 
> Of course, that all changed but one day, as a young and obvious mother-to-be, I was walking downtown when 3 black male youths were walking toward me, abreast, and took up the entire sidewalk. I had to stop and the one on the end actually shouldered me aside and off the curb into the gutter. Fortunately, I kept my balance.
> 
> Their hate was obvious and I felt so very hurt and also frightened. I still wonder what that was all about.



Yes, hate and fear go hand-in-hand. "Prejudice" is a collection of pre-concieved notions about a different racial or cultural group.  Hate and fear are 'primal' emotions, tools for survival from long past

-an except from Psychology Today:



> Recently, several members of a group calling itself “Respect the Flag” were sentenced to prison for terrorizing guests at the birthday party of an 8-year-old African-American girl in Georgia. Pointing a shotgun, they yelled racial slurs and death threats at guests, including children.
> 
> It wasn’t an isolated incident. According to a recent study, there are at least 917 organized hate groups in the United States. The study, based on data collected by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) and presented in their annual census of hate groups, looked at the presence of hate groups on Twitter. SPLC found that the number of likes and comments on hate group accounts grew by 900 percent in the last two years.
> 
> 
> Why do we hate? The reasons are complex, but following are some of the factors that may play a role in helping us understand hate and, hopefully, work toward change.
> 
> 
> Fear of “The Other”
> 
> 
> According to A.J. Marsden, assistant professor of psychology and human services at Beacon College in Leesburg, Florida, one reason we hate is because we fear things that are different from us.
> 
> 
> Behavioral researcher Patrick Wanis, cites the in-group out-group theory, which posits that when we feel threatened by perceived outsiders, we instinctively turn toward our in-group—those with whom we identify—as a survival mechanism. Wanis explains, “Hatred is driven by two key emotions of love and aggression: One love for the in-group—the group that is favored; and two, aggression for the out-group—the group that has been deemed as being different, dangerous, and a threat to the in-group.”
> 
> 
> Fear of Ourselves
> 
> 
> According to Washington, D.C., clinical psychologist Dana Harron, the things people hate about others are the things that they fear within themselves. She suggests thinking about the targeted group or person as a movie screen onto which we project unwanted parts of the self. The idea is, “I'm not terrible; you are.”
> 
> 
> This phenomenon is known as projection, a term coined by Freud to describe our tendency to reject what we don’t like about ourselves. Psychologist Brad Reedy further describes projection as our need to be good, which causes us to project "badness" outward and attack it:
> 
> 
> "We developed this method to survive, for any 'badness' in us put us at risk for being rejected and alone. So we repressed the things that we thought were bad (what others told us or suggested to us that was unlovable and morally reprehensible) — and we employ hate and judgment towards others. We think that is how one rids oneself of undesirable traits, but this method only perpetuates repression which leads to many mental health issues.
> 
> 
> Lack of Self-compassion
> 
> 
> The antidote to hate is compassion — for others as well as ourselves. Self-compassion means that we accept the whole self. “If we find part of ourselves unacceptable, we tend to attack others in order to defend against the threat,” says Reedy. “If we are okay with ourselves, we see others’ behaviors as ‘about them’ and can respond with compassion. If I kept hate in my heart for [another], I would have to hate myself as well. It is only when we learn to hold ourselves with compassion that we may be able to demonstrate it toward others.”


 Article


----------



## Trade

RadishRose said:


> Of course, that all changed but one day, as a young and obvious mother-to-be, I was walking downtown when 3 black male youths were walking toward me, abreast, and took up the entire sidewalk. I had to stop and the one on the end actually shouldered me aside and off the curb into the gutter. Fortunately, I kept my balance.
> 
> Their hate was obvious and I felt so very hurt and also frightened. I still wonder what that was all about.



That's unacceptable. I can cut black guys a lot of slack for being hostile towards white people because of the way they've been treated, but picking on a pregnant woman?, no. They crossed a line there. I'd like to go Negan on those guys.


----------



## applecruncher

No, this thread is not just about racism against blacks in the US.

Elsewhere I posted a video of Marlon Brando portraying American Nazi Party founder George Lincoln Rockwell in _Roots: The Next Generation. _Rockwell said he didn't believe the Holocaust happened.

(For better continuity I should have included this in that same post, but anyway...)*

Elie* *Wiesel* (1928 - 2016) was a Romanian-born American Jewish writer, professor, political activist, Nobel Laureate and Holocaust survivor. He was the author of 57 books, written mostly in French and English, including _Night_, a work based on his experiences as a prisoner in the Auschwitz and Buchenwald concentration and extermination camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel

I read the book "Night" and I also saw the Oprah show where she talked about going with him to visit Auschwitz in Poland.


----------



## rkunsaw

applecruncher said:


> I've lived in a large city for over 40 years and the races don't separate themselves.
> 
> In many cities/towns as soon as minorities moved into an area whites would move to get away from them.  It was known as White Flight.
> 
> I'm not buying the theory that minorities are to blame for the racism displayed towards them. That's grasping at straws.



I'm not blaming anyone. I don't know the reason(s) for separate communities and you are

right about the whites moving away, years ago, but I don't think that would be the case today. 

My point is that separate communities do exist in large cities. Black people have black neighbors, white people have white neighbors, etc. When the races are mixed as they usually are in small towns and rural areas, people of different races get to know each other. And getting to know each other is where racism ends.


----------



## Anomaly 73

It's the *concentration* of minorities in the major cities that creates the problem. If they could (somehow) be dispersed into the countryside and be more representative of their numerical proportion...life would be easier. 

I am *prejudiced* by my experiences. We *must* use stereotypes to think. If we differentiate between prejudice and blind hatred, the stereotypes *can* be benevolent and useful...if not, they assume a malignancy of the soul. Our instincts *ensure* prejudice...admit it and go on.


----------



## Gary O'

rkunsaw said:


> getting to know each other is where racism ends.



yes

found this out (of all places) in jail

nutshell of it all, is getting to know one another

(sometimes it fosters a true hate with good cause, heh heh)


----------



## Big Horn

rkunsaw said:


> I'm not blaming anyone. I don't know the reason(s) for separate communities and you are
> 
> right about the whites moving away, years ago, but I don't think that would be the case today.
> 
> My point is that separate communities do exist in large cities. Black people have black neighbors, white people have white neighbors, etc. When the races are mixed as they usually are in small towns and rural areas, people of different races get to know each other. And getting to know each other is where racism ends.


I've lived in rural areas for fifty years.  I've never seen any race mixing.  Oh yes, blacks receive a warm welcome in some small and liberal towns, but they'll always be excluded from any socializing even there.  I saw it in Colorado.  People don't move to an area that's monoracial because they're looking for diversity.


----------



## Trade

Big Horn said:


> I've lived in rural areas for fifty years.  I've never seen any race mixing.  Oh yes, blacks receive a warm welcome in some small and liberal towns, but they'll always be excluded from any socializing even there.  I saw it in Colorado.  People don't move to an area that's monoracial because they're looking for diversity.



I see you are from Wyoming. 

Isn't that where they call Indians "Prairie Ni*#ers"?


----------



## Wayne

People are all equal at birth, from them on some change that. I have lived through a lifetime of Military Service and Law Enforcement & Affirmative Action programs so many times the forced acceptance did nothing but push relations farther apart. We had some unwritten rules in the military of who did what when it concerned our safety all learned from experiences.


----------



## Trade

Wayne said:


> People are all equal at birth,from them on some change that



So Julio Rodriquez, born in Immokalee Florida to migrant farm laborers had the same opportunities as Baron Trump when he was born? And from then on what they make of themselves is all up to their own personal gumption?


----------



## Shalimar

Trade said:


> So Julio Rodriquez, born in Immokalee Florida to migrant farm laborers had the same opportunities as Baron Trump when he was born? And from then on what they make of themselves is all up to their own personal gumption?


I think in order for people to be able to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps they must have boots.


----------



## applecruncher

Wayne said:


> *People are all equal at birth*, from them on some change that. I have lived through a lifetime of Military Service and Law Enforcement & Affirmative Action programs so many times the forced acceptance did nothing but push relations farther apart. We had some unwritten rules in the military of who did what when it concerned our safety all learned from experiences.



Hmmm. Really?

That would be news to people who lived for almost 50 years in South Africa under apartheid, the millions who were killed in Nazi concentration camps, and also victims of lynch mobs in the US.

(btw Affirmative Action is not just about race; didn't help that many black people.  The people who benefitted most from Affirmative Action were *white women*.)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/affirmative-action-white-women_us_56a0ef6ae4b0d8cc1098d3a5

https://www.bustle.com/p/who-does-a...women-are-some-of-its-biggest-opponents-74034


----------



## Big Horn

Some people just won't accept reality.

Take a field trip to an area university where there are large numbers of different races.  Wander through the dining areas at lunch time.  Note how people form groups.


----------



## Aunt Bea

Big Horn said:


> Some people just won't accept reality.
> 
> Take a field trip to an area university where there are large numbers of different races.  Wander through the dining areas at lunch time.  Note how people form groups.



I used to notice that in some of our larger office parks when I was working.  To me the big difference is between being able to make the choice to join or form a group and being unwelcome or intentionally excluded from a group.

I spent many years in a small town with only one elderly black couple and a few native American families.  Everyone seemed to get along but IMO it was because we all _knew our place_ and not because we were all free from racial bias.


----------



## applecruncher

*@Aunt Bea*

And what/where was _'your place' _?


----------



## applecruncher

Big Horn said:


> Some people just won't accept reality.
> 
> Take a field trip to an area university where there are large numbers of different races.  Wander through the dining areas at lunch time.  Note how people form groups.



And exactly what is (your version of) reality?

So people form groups. So what? :shrug:


----------



## Aunt Bea

applecruncher said:


> *@Aunt Bea*
> 
> And what/where was _'your place' _?



I don't want to take the bait or argue with you, I'm just telling you my perception of that time and place in my life.

I should have trusted my original instinct and left this thread alone.

I apologize if my comment struck a nerve or offended you.


----------



## hearlady

Gary O' said:


> yes
> 
> found this out (of all places) in jail
> 
> nutshell of it all, is getting to know one another
> 
> (sometimes it fosters a true hate with good cause, heh heh)



I agree.


----------



## hearlady

I have posted that I grew up in an all white town then spent about 14 years traveling with the military. I've lived in Eastern N Carolina for 26 years. Eastern N Carolina is integrated. Anywhere you go including banks, grocery stores, school, restaurants there are black people. There is also a large community of Hispanic because of all the farms. A lot of my patients are black. The point is I live, work, communicate with, do business with black people everyday. 
About 15 years ago we spent a week in western N Carolina. It was the Asheville, Waynesville, Cherokee area. I was in the grocery store and something just felt weird. Kept shopping and it struck me. There were no black people. None. I went back to our rental and told my husband and we had a chuckle. 
For some reason when we went back to New England I didn't notice I guess because that's how it always was. I do notice now and my children notice. My daughter that lives in Atlanta just went up there to a funeral with me. She noticed and also said it was weird.
It's not bad not good just strange.


----------



## Warrigal

Having read some of the later posts, it strikes me that one way to break down racist thinking is to practise inclusivity everywhere. No more restricted whites only social clubs where Jews and coloureds are never admitted. Invite all the children in your child's class to her birthday parties. Make it illegal to have segregated public swimming pools.

Above all, break bread together. Australian schools in ethnically diverse locations often have days where the children bring a traditional  dish to share with the rest of class. We also have a day labelled Harmony Day where all kinds of ethnic culture is displayed and unfamiliar food is available for tasting. Singing and dancing and traditional national costumes are worn.

Just about every Australian school child learns the Seekers song "We are one but we are many" which acknowledges our history and the many countries we have drawn on as our population grew. It highlights inclusivity and me heart swells every time I hear it sung by school children.

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/seekers/iamaustralian.html


----------



## applecruncher

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't want to take the bait or argue with you, I'm just telling you my perception of that time and place in my life.
> 
> I should have trusted my original instinct and left this thread alone.
> 
> I apologize if my comment struck a nerve or offended you.


----------



## Warrigal

Standing up against racism can destroy you. You have to be courageous.

Read the story of Peter Norman, an Australian Olympic athlete and you will see what I mean. 
It is all true but I never heard anything about it until he died.

https://comicsands.com/news/peter-n...s&tse_id=INF_eacc52a0b51111e78240a3a6bbddd67d


----------



## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> My purpose in starting this thread about race/racism is to hopefully have some honest, interesting, informative discussion.  I'm aware that people of various races are/have been subjected to racism....in some form.  This is not just about racism towards blacks in the US. I'd also like to try to clarify what is/is not racist.
> If this discussion moves along, I'm going to be sharing some experiences, and I'd like input from others.  _This is not the applecruncher show_.



I re-read the OP, I'm glad you clarified that, I was starting to wonder.     Are there "right" or "wrong" answers/responses here?   I noticed several posters [apparently] being chastised for their post comments.


----------



## applecruncher

I can't blindly agree with/applaud everyone all the time.  And if someone doesn't like being asked a simple question it's best they not post.


----------



## tnthomas

applecruncher said:


> I can't blindly agree with/applaud everyone all the time.  And if someone doesn't like being asked a simple question it's best they not post.



Nobody said you had to agree or applaud, but you asked for candid comments from people who might have differing experiences and perspectives.   But, a judgmental "_finger wag_" of disapproval hardly is conducive to advancing the conversation.


----------



## applecruncher

BobF said:


> For you it may be BS, I am speaking of earlier days in Ohio and a bit further west.  After 57 years away I am back and doing fine, we have a mixed population here still but no signs of race problem still.
> 
> Still not as nice as I remember my westward adventures of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and an eastward Florida.   Wish I had never moved back to Ohio a year and a half ago.
> 
> Of those states I have mentioned I would go back to southern Arizona, New Mexico, but none of the others.   My brother livestock in Las Vegas, I have visited there but doubt I would like it.   I have visited on different times in the Reno area but again not sure if I would like it there.
> 
> Smaller towns seem safer to me.



BobF when you say you are back do you mean you settled back in the Cleveland area? I haven't been there in quite awhile, and only been to Cincinnati a couple times back when I was working. Quick trips both times.


----------



## hearlady

This is such a sensitive subject. I would hate to see someone leave the conversation because they felt bated.
If I sense that when I ask a question I always follow up with "The reason I'm asking is " and a lot of times the reason is completely different from what the person thought.
On the other hand a forum is the best place to be brave and tell your thoughts and get things out in the open. Your comments may be taken out of context but who would now if you back out when it gets a little hot. 
No veiled comments, no veiled replies, respect and seeking to understand would be best in my humble opinion.


----------



## BobF

applecruncher said:


> BobF when you say you are back do you mean you settled back in the Cleveland area? I haven't been there in quite awhile, and only been to Cincinnati a couple times back when I was working. Quick trips both times.



No, I am  closer to Toledo. 

Cincinnati was the first place I remember seeing segregation in public places.   I have not been there since my first stop on my way to Ft Knox after joining the army in 1953.


----------



## Trade

Big Horn said:


> Some people just won't accept reality.
> 
> Take a field trip to an area university where there are large numbers of different races.  Wander through the dining areas at lunch time.  Note how people form groups.



So what? My High School was all white and the cliques that were formed were strictly "members only". If you sat down at the wrong table you would get dirty looks from Hell until you got up and left.


----------



## applecruncher

Trade said:


> So what? My High School was all white and the cliques that were formed were strictly "members only". If you sat down at the wrong table you would get dirty looks from Hell until you got up and left.



*@Trade*

hmmm.  Then my "Rosa Parks of the High School Cafeteria" incident would not have gone over well, huh?  :wink:

*@Big Horn*

Yes, as I already acknowledged people often form groups.  But I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> *@Big Horn*
> 
> Yes, as I already acknowledged people often form groups.  But I'm not sure what you're trying to say.



I think Big Horn is trying to say the perception was that these groups formed because of their color, therefore, white kids felt unwelcome. That unwelcome feeling - unwelcome to chat or even say hello; to extend a hand in friendship - carried over to campus outside the lunchroom.


----------



## applecruncher

*Why white people can’t face up to racism
*
_Robin DiAngelo grew up poor and white. But it was years before she realized that despite living in poverty, she still had privilege because she was white._
_“I had a very deep sense of shame and otherness growing up… But I had never looked at how, where in my life did I have an advantage? And where might I have been actually benefiting from the oppression of somebody else?” she says.

_
_DiAngelo has been working on race and social justice issues for more than 20 years as a lecturer, consultant and trainer.  She’s the author of the book, What Does It Mean to Be White? Developing White Racial Literacy._

_She came to understand her advantage and privilege when she took a job as a diversity trainer. It was eye opening as she worked with mainly white clients who were uncomfortable with having to deal with the issue of race. It was through that work that she developed the concept of “white fragility” to explain why white people have such difficulty in talking about racism.

_
_DiAngelo and I talked about her work and why it is important for white people to have a serious conversation about race in America today._
_Here are some excerpts from our conversation._
*
Q: Let’s talk about white fragility. What is it?*
_A: If you try to talk to white folks about race in a way that just allows them to assert their opinions and perspectives unchallenged, that tends to go pretty well. But if you push back on it, that tends to go really poorly._

(more)

http://crosscut.com/2017/04/white-fragility-robin-diangelo-race/

*
*


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> *@Trade*
> 
> hmmm.  Then my "Rosa Parks of the High School Cafeteria" incident would not have gone over well, huh?  :wink:



I don't know. High School is brutal even with the race issue. Even at my 50 year reunion the same cliques were for the most part still in effect. Even though I was welcome at a number of tables with my black wife, they were for the most part the "nerd"tables. I could tell I still wasn't welcome at the "cool kids" tables. And I don't think that had anything to do with my wife being black.


----------



## applecruncher

*Congratulations on Being a Good Person, But That Doesn’t Excuse Racism.

*[h=3]_1. Stop creating false equivalencies._[/h]_Saying “Black Lives Matter” does not mean that other lives do not. Standing in opposition to police brutality is not the same as hating all cops. Talking about racism is not the same as an indictment of a person’s character.

_
[h=3]_2. Stop making excuses._[/h]_We do not live in a “post-racial society.” Let me burst that bubble for you now. You may work, live and frequent places that have a little diversity, but if that is the case, there is a big world outside of your day-to-day life. 

_
[h=3]_3. Stop checking out of the conversation._[/h]_Does talking about race make you uncomfortable? Living the realities of racial injustice is not exactly a walk in the park either. Everyone needs to be part of that conversation, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Yes, this includes you.
_
(full article)

http://educationpost.org/congratulations-on-being-a-good-person-but-that-doesnt-excuse-racism/


----------



## Trade

Shalimar said:


> I think in order for people to be able to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps they must have boots.



No that's not how it works. If one million salmon make it up a river to spawn every year, and then we build a dam on the river and the next year only 8 salmon make it up the river that means the other 999,992 were lazy and didn't apply themselves.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

I have a question (@ you, applecruncher):

Imagine that a great majority of people (let’s say upwards of 80%) finally get it; they understand what racial prejudice is, how it propagates, the harm it's done. Racial prejudice exists only among tiny, insignificant groups, and they are fading fast.

Now that there is a clear understanding, what is the next step? How do we proceed, and what do we do to maintain the new normal?


----------



## Shalimar

Trade said:


> No that's not how it works. If one million salmon make it up a river to spawn every year, and then we build a dam on the river and the next year only 8 salmon make it up the river that means the other 999,992 were lazy and didn't apply themselves.


Gotta love Randian economics. Did you know, that la Rand was poor in her latter years and actually accepted money from the gov't?


----------



## applecruncher

A couple of terms I never hear anymore, but heard my parents use when I was very young (teen).

*Splib* - my father is the only person I every heard use this word. He sometimes would say to one of my younger brothers "Stop acting like a splib."  What he meant was that brother was "messin' up", acting like one of the high school drop-outs who hung out with a group on a street corner.

_splib/category.php?category=unknown 
In the mid 60's, while in the Marine Corps, the term splib was used commonly among black and white marines. It was not used in a pejorative way by either blacks or whites but as a "hip", descriptive way of identifying a person, usually a male, of the ***** race, such as in the phrase "splib dude". Likewise the descriptive and non-pejorative term "chuck" was used to describe a white person, however it was also used to describe the Viet Cong (VC), such as in "Victor Charlie", "Charlie" or just "Chuck" In fact, one might get vanilla or chocolate creme filled cookies that were included in the field "C" rations. These were commonly referred to as "chuck" or "splib" cookies. 

_
*Hilligan *- my mother used this term, but not very often.  It's a combination of hooligan and hillbilly.  Kinda like people Jeff Foxworthy referred to as rednecks.

_Definition. Appalachian American. A PC term for any number of Americans who by region, decent or choice are hillbillies, hilljacks._


----------



## applecruncher

Cap'nSacto said:


> I have a question (@ you, applecruncher):
> 
> Imagine that a great majority of people (let’s say upwards of 80%) finally get it; they understand what racial prejudice, how it propagates, the harm it's done. Racial prejudice exists only among tiny, insignificant groups, and they are fading fast.
> 
> Now that there is a clear understanding, what is the next step? How do we proceed, and what do we do to maintain the new normal?



hmmm.  I'll have to think on that.


----------



## hearlady

YES it does make me uncomfortable to talk about race yet I'm fascinated. I do want to understand and I'm wise enough to believe what makes sense. That's why I'd rather talk to people than listen to what media tells  me.
I've learned a lot in my small diverse world. Still learning.
There is a video circulating to explain white privilege. Everyone starts at the beginning then as questions are asked such as "Do you live in a household with two parents?". As the questions are asked more and more are left behind.
I'm genuinely asking why are there so many single parent families in the back community? What happened? It wasn't always that way was it?


----------



## hearlady

Cap'nSacto said:


> I have a question (@ you, applecruncher):
> 
> Imagine that a great majority of people (let’s say upwards of 80%) finally get it; they understand what racial prejudice, how it propagates, the harm it's done. Racial prejudice exists only among tiny, insignificant groups, and they are fading fast.
> 
> Now that there is a clear understanding, what is the next step? How do we proceed, and what do we do to maintain the new normal?



Good question.


----------



## farmchild

Good thread. I'd like to add my own two cents worth. I was born in 1946 and had the good fortune to spend my early youth on a farm in Michigan. This thread has caused me to try and figure out what the essential "forces" are that drive racism.  I am absolutely convinced that racism is TAUGHT, and not a "natural" part of human thinking. It seems to me that the two driving forces are FEAR and EGO or a combination of the two. I think it is _natural _to be wary (fear) of the unknown (people or circumstances) until you have had some instruction or personal experience which allows you to form your own ideas about the nature is of this unknown thing. If you are very lucky your experience and/or your outside advice about this unknown thing will be positive and reassuring and will encourage you to embrace this (currently) unknown thing into your 'world'. I was so greatly blessed to have a mother who CLEARLY instructed me that racism was not only unkind but also patently stupid. I mean, after all, how STUPID is it to decide what a thing, and especially a person, is before you know anything about them? 

However, if you've had the misfortune of being raised in an environment that teaches you that "some" other people are BAD or dangerous, what chance do you have of developing a balanced view of these "other" people?  A child has no choice but to believe what his parents' behavior is teaching him. A child has no basis with which to challenge the accuracy of the world view being presented to him by the environment in which he lives. This works both ways; white to black and black to white. *HOPEFULLY *this imagined child will have the opportunity to move out into the greater world, taste different ideas, and be inspired to heal the infected opinions forced upon him in the past.

The other influence is EGO. The impulse to look down on other people, to consider yourself superior, to believe that you are inherently 'special', more deserving, more worthy,  etc. etc. etc. can be very seductive. I don't think it's as prevalent or powerful as FEAR, but it's there. 

That's my two cents worth.


----------



## Trade

Shalimar said:


> Gotta love Randian economics. Did you know, that la Rand was poor in her latter years and actually accepted money from the gov't?



Yeah, she chained smoked cigarettes and then came down with cancer, so she got on that terrible socialized medicine program, Medicare.


----------



## applecruncher

hearlady said:


> YES it does make me uncomfortable to talk about race yet I'm fascinated. I do want to understand and I'm wise enough to believe what makes sense. That's why I'd rather talk to people than listen to what media tells  me.
> I've learned a lot in my small diverse world. Still learning.
> There is a video circulating to explain white privilege. Everyone starts at the beginning then as questions are asked such as "Do you live in a household with two parents?". As the questions are asked more and more are left behind.
> I'm genuinely asking why are there so many single parent families in the back community? What happened? It wasn't always that way was it?



Wow, this is a good question.

Many people feel that black women have kids out of wedlock so they can get more welfare money. I don't see it that way.

1) Black men and especially young women have been very careless about birth control.
2) Many black women of various ages have the "I must have a man" mindset.
3) Often the girls/women think if they have a guy's baby he will marry them or at least stick around.  Often the guy makes promises. HA! But when the guy disappears the girl thinks "well, at least I have a part of him".
4) Sometimes the guys and girls live in a cycle....they grew up with no male in the house, so they figure what the heck.

imo those are some of the reasons.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> A couple of terms I never hear anymore, but heard my parents use when I was very young (teen).
> 
> *Splib* - my father is the only person I every heard use this word. He sometimes would say to one of my younger brothers "Stop acting like a splib."  What he meant was that brother was "messin' up", acting like one of the high school drop-outs who hung out with a group on a street corner.
> 
> _splib/category.php?category=unknown
> In the mid 60's, while in the Marine Corps, the term splib was used commonly among black and white marines. It was not used in a pejorative way by either blacks or whites but as a "hip", descriptive way of identifying a person, usually a male, of the ***** race, such as in the phrase "splib dude". Likewise the descriptive and non-pejorative term "chuck" was used to describe a white person, however it was also used to describe the Viet Cong (VC), such as in "Victor Charlie", "Charlie" or just "Chuck" In fact, one might get vanilla or chocolate creme filled cookies that were included in the field "C" rations. These were commonly referred to as "chuck" or "splib" cookies.
> 
> _
> *Hilligan *- my mother used this term, but not very often.  It's a combination of hooligan and hillbilly.  Kinda like people Jeff Foxworthy referred to as rednecks.
> 
> _Definition. Appalachian American. A PC term for any number of Americans who by region, decent or choice are hillbillies, hilljacks._



In my opinion one of the nastiest terms I have heard used for black people is "Porch Monkeys". Are you familiar with that one?


----------



## applecruncher

@ Trade



> In my opinion one of the nastiest terms I have heard used for black people is "Porch Monkeys". Are you familiar with that one?



Yes, I've heard it.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> @ Trade
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've heard it.



I hope my posts aren't getting offensive to you. I'm pretty much just letting it rip.


----------



## Trade

Oh well. In for a penny, in for a pound. 

Any white person my age who says they never saw any racism is a lying dog.  

  I had a coworker and friend back in the late 70's that was a member of the Klu Klux Klan. And he wasn't a cracker or a redneck. He was from upstate New York and his family had moved down to Lakeland, Florida when he was in his teens. He was as nice a guy as you would ever want to meet until he got on one subject. We also had a very liberal Jew who had a masters degree from Brandeis and a half black daughter from his first marriage working in the same office. And the funny thing was they were sort of friends and they teased each other back and forth. John, that was the guy who was in the Klan would go to Klan meetings on Wednesday night. He called it meeting with "The Boys". and on Thursdays he would come in amped up and ranting about stuff they had discussed at the meeting. Mostly right wing anti-government stuff and racist stuff. I can't remember him ever using the word "******" though. I suppose he did, but his favorite term was "Those colored devils". I remember one morning he came in and started talking about how they had played the movie "Birth of a Nation" at last nights meeting and he was telling us about what a great movie it was. We were on the second floor of this building and there was some kind of social services office on the first floor. 

  One time I remember John looking out the window and there was a black guy walking accross the parking area and John started up, "Look at that colored devil out there wearing 80 dollar shoes (that was a lot back then) going to pick up his welfare check." The guy started looking around probably wandering which door to go in and John said "He's probably looking for something to steal" He also used to tell this story about how when he was in High School he and some of his friends were driving around Lake Hollings worth and they saw a black guy walking along the road . So they stopped the car got out, dragged him down to the lake and threw him in. Whenever John would get on one of those kicks Alan would just roll his eyes, shake his head and say "John, you are so full of shit".  

  To me it was just hilarious to watch them play off of each other. It was sort of joking, but also sort of serious. And I would get in on it too. I have to admit I enjoyed teasing Alan. I didn't get in so much on the racist stuff but I would tease him with the right wing anti-government stuff. I was actually voting Republican back then. Later I became a Democrat and now I'm pretty much a Bernie Sanders Socialist. So I've made quite a journey.          

  I had this American Flag pin from when I was in the Air Force and I would goose step around the office squaring all my corner and saluting just to aggravate Alan. You might wonder how we had all this time on our hands. Well this was a government job, for the Florida Department of Transportation and when I first started our workload was minimal. When I first arrived there one of my coworkers said "We have to set a stake to see if we're moving" So we had time on our hands. 

  I was actually voting Republican back then. Later I became a Democrat and now I'm pretty much a Bernie Sanders Socialist. So I've made quite a journey.          

  Anyway, it wasn't too long before Alan moved on to another job. I can still remember how he would sit at his desk and roll his eyes and mutter "this is unbearable". But I stayed because I enjoyed having a "light" workload. I used to car pool with Alan because he lived near me. One day on the way home he asked me "How much work do you think you did today" and I answered "Oh, maybe an hours worth" And he turned to me and said  "what did you do for an hour's work" and I had to admit, I was stumped. I couldn't come up with anything. 

  But I digress. This story is about my coworker John who was in the KKK. 
  At that time State of Florida had a program where they would pay tuition at a state college or university for any employees taking college courses. And John started to go part time nights at the local junior college. At the time the courses did not even have to be job related for the state to pay the tuition. So he started taken a lot of liberal arts stuff. The more he took these courses the more mellow he got. Eventually he finished an A.A degree and started driving over to the University  of South Florida for upper division classes. By that time he was reading Carlos Casteneda books. He even got me reading them. That Dude was far out. John bought into it more than I did. He actually believed some of that stuff. I chalked it up to the peyote buttons they kept eating in those books. 
  Anyway it took him about 8 years but he finally got a bachelor's degree in Anthropology. By that time he was also reading books by Swami Vivekananda, which I tried but could not hack, and he was pretty much a new age hippie type. He had long since abandoned the KKK and racism.  

  I guess the moral of the story is that people can change. Whenever I hear some right winger complain about how liberal colleges and universities poison the minds of young people by indoctrination I think about how college changed John.


----------



## Trade

BobF said:


> I grew up in northern Ohio, near lake Erie, and race was not a problem here.   No special rest rooms, my grand mother rented rooms to students and she did have blacks included.   As far as I knew there was no racism in the US.
> 
> But not far south, in Cincinnati at a bus stop I found 'colored' restrooms.   Later on while in the Army and stationed in Virginia I was on a bus and sitting down about half way back I saw a lot of blacks standing while seats around me were empty.   I guess there was some sort of rule about no blacks could sit ahead of a white person.   I was slowly learning about race separation.   I stopped in a motel in Alabama or Georgia one time, and asked for a room.   I was refused as I was 'white' and this was a 'black' neighbor hood.
> 
> So glad times have changed and things are much smoother now.   Still have some problems in major cities.
> 
> I did not know about race problems as a kid.   Found out while in the Army and moving in southern cities and states in the 1950's.   I was in Ft Knox KY, Ft Gordon GA, and Ft Monroe VA.



Back in about 1980 a couple from Ohio, I don't know where in Ohio, moved in next door to us in Winter Haven Florida. They invited my wife and I (this would be my first wife who was white) over for a meet the new neighbors thing. The guy was going to be the new service manager at the Goodyear place in Bartow. Anyway. I guess as an ice breaker and maybe because the guy thinks that since he's in the south now he needs to try to fit in, starts off with a joke. 

And the Joke goes like this "What's the different between a ****** and a bucket of shit" 

And the answer is "The bucket". Now both my wife and I sort of cringed but neither of us said anything and from then on we didn't have much to do with them, but we didn't call them out either. We should have. 

On the other hand when I was in the Air Force at Columbus AFB Mississippi I worked for a guy from Ohio named Staff Sergeant Zimmerman. Same last name as George Zimmerman but I can not remember him ever saying or doing anything racist. All that dude cared about was football. Football football football 24/7. I guess football is big in Ohio. 

On the other hand I worked for a while under a Staff Sergeant Weathersby who was from Mississippi. Now that guy was racist to the bone. We used to do physical exams for area ROTC programs. Whenever we had a group of kids from one of the black colleges, like Mississippi Valley State, he would make a big production out of walking around the room after they left spraying it with air freshener that he kept in his desk. 

Man, this is only the tip of the iceberg of the stuff I remember. I have seen a lot of racism in my time. And I usually went along with it, or didn't call anyone out on it.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

Here’s a better question, applecruncher (and thank you in advance):

[Earlier I asked: Imagine that a great majority of people (let’s say upwards of 80%) finally get it…Racial prejudice exists only among tiny, insignificant groups, and they are fading fast…what is the next step?]

In that example, I suppose the next step would be that we go on and enjoy our lives free from the destruction and pain of racial prejudice. 

So, I think a more relevant question is; How will we know we are there?


----------



## Cap'nSacto

Trade said:


> Oh well. In for a penny, in for a pound.
> 
> Any white person my age who says they never saw any racism is a lying dog.
> 
> I had a coworker and friend back in the late 70's that was a member of the Klu Klux Klan. And he wasn't a cracker or a redneck. He was from upstate New York and his family had moved down to Lakeland, Florida when he was in his teens. He was as nice a guy as you would ever want to meet until he got on one subject. We also had a very liberal Jew who had a masters degree from Brandeis and a half black daughter from his first marriage working in the same office. And the funny thing was they were sort of friends and they teased each other back and forth. John, that was the guy who was in the Klan would go to Klan meetings on Wednesday night. He called it meeting with "The Boys". and on Thursdays he would come in amped up and ranting about stuff they had discussed at the meeting. Mostly right wing anti-government stuff and racist stuff. I can't remember him ever using the word "******" though. I suppose he did, but his favorite term was "Those colored devils". I remember one morning he came in and started talking about how they had played the movie "Birth of a Nation" at last nights meeting and he was telling us about what a great movie it was. We were on the second floor of this building and there was some kind of social services office on the first floor.
> 
> One time I remember John looking out the window and there was a black guy walking accross the parking area and John started up, "Look at that colored devil out there wearing 80 dollar shoes (that was a lot back then) going to pick up his welfare check." The guy started looking around probably wandering which door to go in and John said "He's probably looking for something to steal" He also used to tell this story about how when he was in High School he and some of his friends were driving around Lake Hollings worth and they saw a black guy walking along the road . So they stopped the car got out, dragged him down to the lake and threw him in. Whenever John would get on one of those kicks Alan would just roll his eyes, shake his head and say "John, you are so full of shit".
> 
> To me it was just hilarious to watch them play off of each other. It was sort of joking, but also sort of serious. And I would get in on it too. I have to admit I enjoyed teasing Alan. I didn't get in so much on the racist stuff but I would tease him with the right wing anti-government stuff. I was actually voting Republican back then. Later I became a Democrat and now I'm pretty much a Bernie Sanders Socialist. So I've made quite a journey.
> 
> I had this American Flag pin from when I was in the Air Force and I would goose step around the office squaring all my corner and saluting just to aggravate Alan. You might wonder how we had all this time on our hands. Well this was a government job, for the Florida Department of Transportation and when I first started our workload was minimal. When I first arrived there one of my coworkers said "We have to set a stake to see if we're moving" So we had time on our hands.
> 
> I was actually voting Republican back then. Later I became a Democrat and now I'm pretty much a Bernie Sanders Socialist. So I've made quite a journey.
> 
> Anyway, it wasn't too long before Alan moved on to another job. I can still remember how he would sit at his desk and roll his eyes and mutter "this is unbearable". But I stayed because I enjoyed having a "light" workload. I used to car pool with Alan because he lived near me. One day on the way home he asked me "How much work do you think you did today" and I answered "Oh, maybe an hours worth" And he turned to me and said  "what did you do for an hour's work" and I had to admit, I was stumped. I couldn't come up with anything.
> 
> But I digress. This story is about my coworker John who was in the KKK.
> At that time State of Florida had a program where they would pay tuition at a state college or university for any employees taking college courses. And John started to go part time nights at the local junior college. At the time the courses did not even have to be job related for the state to pay the tuition. So he started taken a lot of liberal arts stuff. The more he took these courses the more mellow he got. Eventually he finished an A.A degree and started driving over to the University  of South Florida for upper division classes. By that time he was reading Carlos Casteneda books. He even got me reading them. That Dude was far out. John bought into it more than I did. He actually believed some of that stuff. I chalked it up to the peyote buttons they kept eating in those books.
> Anyway it took him about 8 years but he finally got a bachelor's degree in Anthropology. By that time he was also reading books by Swami Vivekananda, which I tried but could not hack, and he was pretty much a new age hippie type. He had long since abandoned the KKK and racism.
> 
> I guess the moral of the story is that people can change. Whenever I hear some right winger complain about how liberal colleges and universities poison the minds of young people by indoctrination I think about how college changed John.



It's lucky for John he didn't meet a disciple of the Jonestown Institute.


----------



## applecruncher

Trade said:


> ...........Any white person my age who says they never saw any racism is a lying dog.............



And any white person who says racism hasn't affected them needs to be reminded that they BENEFITED from racism.

If that sounds judgmental, so be it. So, I'm judgmental.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> And any white person who says racism hasn't affected them needs to be reminded that they BENEFITED from racism.



Can't argue with that.


----------



## applecruncher

*@Cap'nSacto*

You asked me a question earlier today, and I said I needed to think about it.

I found this:

http://www.wedonteatanimals.com/blog/5-things-everyone-can-do-heal-americas-racism

*5 THINGS EVERYONE CAN DO TO HEAL AMERICA'S RACISM*

*1. ACKNOWLEDGE THE GAP
*Admit, at least to yourself, that you probably don't know too much about the experience of people of color—unless you have, over great lengths of time, repeatedly put yourself in environments where you are the racial minority, away from the watchful eye of white society. Admission is the first step to recovery. 

*2. READ & WATCH*
Educate yourself on African American history. If you don't _intentionally_ seek out the history of _all_ peoples of color, in fact, you can not possibly know American history at all, nor the real context and implications of race today. To get you started, these are just a _few_ of my most beloved, mind-blowing, life-changing resources that cover a great span of time.
• The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du Bois
• Race Rebels: Culture Politics, and the Black Working Class by Robin D.G. Kelley
• Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass; Narrative of Sojourner Truth; The Light of Truth: Writings of an Anti-Lynching Crusader: Ida B. Wells
• Watch documentation of anti-racism activist Jane Elliot's "Blue-Eyed Brown-Eyed" workshops—they are some of the most powerful demonstrations of the insidious nature of racism on both the "superior" and oppressed sides. See what happens when she discriminates against a group of people based on eye color, lowers her expectations of them, and breaks their confidence as they live down to those expectations: 
• How Racist Are You? Part I (11 min)
• The Angry Eye (51 min)
Purchase the "Blue-Eyed" documentary on Jane Elliot for diversity training purposes here.

*3. INTEGRATE*
Because of the intersections of race and class, our schools have become largely segregated once again. We have to integrate ourselves if we want our generation and the next to be brothers and sisters. If you or your kids have extracurriculars, hobbies, or after school activities, for example, try doing them in a neighborhood you wouldn't normally venture to—not once or twice like you're on some exoticized safari, but for extended periods of time—to build relationships, friendships, networks, and communities. If this sounds scary to you, the problem of racism and its effect on your life should be appearing clearer. See #1 again. 

*4. STOP SUGAR-COATING*
Stop telling kids that "everyone is equal" and start explaining America's history of inequality, what's going on in the news, and—outrightly and clearly—why racism is sick and wrong. Teach your kids to identify and stand in solidarity with just causes, collectives, ideas, and people. 

*5. CHOOSE YOUR ACTIVISM THOUGHTFULLY*
Don't toss around trendy hashtags nor assume you know what any community needs or wants, or what is good for them. Some of the most useless activism I've seen happens when outsiders come into a neighborhood and start offering services that have nothing to do with the real needs of the community. Listen, read, and find out what the many different voices in the community are saying, and _only then_ become a soldier for what you find fair and just. 


(I especially like #4.  It's not enough to say "people need to treat each other with respect"....THAT goes without saying.  Those are just words, not a solution.  I could add more to the above list, but maybe later)

Also, my personal list of books recommended for reading:

_The Autobiography of Malcolm X - by Alex Haley
The Algiers Motel Incident - by John Hershey
Night - by Elie Wiesel (about life in Nazi concentration camp)
Kaffir Boy - by Mark Mathabane  (growing up in apartheid South Africa)_


----------



## BobF

Trade said:


> Back in about 1980 a couple from Ohio, I don't know where in Ohio, moved in next door to us in Winter Haven Florida. They invited my wife and I (this would be my first wife who was white) over for a meet the new neighbors thing. The guy was going to be the new service manager at the Goodyear place in Bartow. Anyway. I guess as an ice breaker and maybe because the guy thinks that since he's in the south now he needs to try to fit in, starts off with a joke.
> 
> And the Joke goes like this "What's the different between a ****** and a bucket of shit"
> 
> And the answer is "The bucket". Now both my wife and I sort of cringed but neither of us said anything and from then on we didn't have much to do with them, but we didn't call them out either. We should have.
> 
> On the other hand when I was in the Air Force at Columbus AFB Mississippi I worked for a guy from Ohio named Staff Sergeant Zimmerman. Same last name as George Zimmerman but I can not remember him ever saying or doing anything racist. All that dude cared about was football. Football football football 24/7. I guess football is big in Ohio.
> 
> On the other hand I worked for a while under a Staff Sergeant Weathersby who was from Mississippi. Now that guy was racist to the bone. We used to do physical exams for area ROTC programs. Whenever we had a group of kids from one of the black colleges, like Mississippi Valley State, he would make a big production out of walking around the room after they left spraying it with air freshener that he kept in his desk.
> 
> Man, this is only the tip of the iceberg of the stuff I remember. I have seen a lot of racism in my time. And I usually went along with it, or didn't call anyone out on it.



 Well, Trade, I once new Bartow pretty well.   I had an Aunt and Uncle that lived there after his finishing his Army career.   He spent the WWII years in Europe, was in the Battle of the Bulge, and after the war he kept putting in for overseas duty.   He grew up in Alabama but wanted to retire in Florida and started that in Bartow.    His wife was my mothers sister so we often had chances to stop in and visit.

I liked Florida as a 'snow bird' but later on my job took me there to Boca Raton and after about 5 years I tired of the humidity, heat, bugs and pests of all sizes and seriousness and was happy to follow my job on to Colorado.


----------



## hearlady

I remember the blue eyed brown eyed workshop on Oprah. Very blue/ brown eye opening!


----------



## Trade

BobF said:


> Well, Trade, I once new Bartow pretty well.   I had and Aunt and Uncle that lived there after his finishing his Army career.   He spent the WWII years in Europe, was in the Battle of the Bulge, and after the war he kept putting in for overseas duty.   He grew up in Alabama but wanted to retire in Florida and started that in Bartow.    His wife was my mothers sister so we often had chances to stop in and visit.



Really? 

When was that? 

When I first went to work for FDOT in 1976 they had us in a building on US 17 South that was known as "The old bait factory" because at one time they had made artificial fishing lures there. Are you familiar with it? Was it a bait factory when you went there? I was in the Planning Department and we were the red headed stepchild of the FDOT and we didn't rate space in the main building at the corner of US 98 and SR 60. If you were there before 1970 the name would have been the State Road Department. It was changed to the Florida Department of Transportation later.


----------



## Trade

hearlady said:


> I remember the blue eyed brown eyed workshop on Oprah. Very blue/ brown eye opening!



I never heard of that. 

But I remember "Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain" by Willie Nelson and "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison.


----------



## Trade

applecruncher said:


> Also, my personal list of books recommended for reading:
> 
> _The Autobiography of Malcolm X - by Alex Haley
> The Algiers Motel Incident - by John Hershey
> Night - by Elie Wiesel (about life in Nazi concentration camp)
> Kaffir Boy - by Mark Mathabane  (growing up in apartheid South Africa)_



How about "Black Like Me"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me

That was an interesting book.


----------



## hearlady

I agree with your 5 things, applecruncher.

However, treating people with respect are not just words.

One day I had 2 retired black teachers in my waiting room. They recognized each other and got to talking. One was a man and had retired many years ago. The woman retired many years ago but came back and was still working last I knew. 
They talked about how horrible the teenagers were these days. "Twenty years ago if you got in trouble at school you got in trouble at home. Now they make fun of my clothes, they curse at me and if they get punished the parents come and threaten me. They have no respect for anyone. "

They have no respect for themselves. Learning respect for yourself and others IS part of the solution.


----------



## hearlady

Trade said:


> I never heard of that.
> 
> But I remember "Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain" by Willie Nelson and "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison.



Love them both!


----------



## Big Horn

I appreciate the OP's honesty in her attack on Whites in her last post.  I have no competing selection of half literate nonsense to offer in return, but I can offer a glimpse into our history.  And yeah, these books use big words.

https://www.amazon.com/March-Titans...974230332/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Of course, we must never forget Gibbon.  I prefer the Modern Library edition, but I'm listing another because it has more reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Decline-Empi...keywords=decline+and+fall+of+the+roman+empire

This is an interesting item.  A scholarly work used in many university courses, it has been nonetheless subjected to intense attacks.

https://www.amazon.com/Search-Indo-...1508541062&sr=1-1&keywords=the+indo-europeans


----------



## tnthomas

Trade said:


> How about "Black Like Me"?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Like_Me
> 
> That was an interesting book.



I read that when i was around 11 or 12; helped me develop a perspective on racial matters.


----------



## applecruncher

hearlady said:


> I agree with your 5 things, applecruncher.
> 
> *Treating people with respect are not just words.*
> 
> One day I had 2 retired black teachers in my waiting room. They recognized each other and got to talking. One was a man and had retired many years ago. The woman retired many years ago but came back and was still working last I knew.
> They talked about how horrible the teenagers were these days. "Twenty years ago if you got in trouble at school you got in trouble at home. Now they make fun of my clothes, they curse at me and if they get punished the parents come and threaten me. They have no respect for anyone.
> 
> They have no respect for themselves. Learning respect for yourself and others IS part of the solution.



*@hearlady*

The list of 5 things is not MY 5 things. It's excerpted from an article, the source was given in post #188 via a link.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear. At no time did I say that people should not respect themselves and others.  So please don't even try to imply that I said that.

What I did say was that simply saying "we should treat each other with respect" is NOT, in and of itself, a solution to the world's racial problems. Those ARE just words. Like Rodney King's "Can't we all just get along". 

I don't know how to make myself clearer about this.


----------



## Shalimar

Big Horn said:


> I appreciate the OP's honesty in her attack on Whites in her last post.  I have no competing selection of half literate nonsense to offer in return, but I can offer a glimpse into our history.  And yeah, these books use big words.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/March-Titans...974230332/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> 
> Of course, we must never forget Gibbon.  I prefer the Modern Library edition, but I'm listing another because it has more reviews.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Decline-Empi...keywords=decline+and+fall+of+the+roman+empire
> 
> This is an interesting item.  A scholarly work used in many university courses, it has been nonetheless subjected to intense attacks.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Search-Indo-...1508541062&sr=1-1&keywords=the+indo-europeans


I would  be interested to learn on what criteria you base your comments regarding "half literate nonsense." One of the things I was taught in university was that true erudition involved the capacity to communicate clearly and simply. Big words have their place, but they are hardly mandatory.  Scholars are not always known for their people skills, and psychologists tend to believe that an overly analytical/pristine approach to social ills tends to be full of pitfalls. Personally, I applaud the posters for their honesty in discussing a highly charged subject.


----------



## applecruncher

Big Horn said:


> I appreciate the OP's honesty in *her attack on Whites in her last post.*  I have no competing selection of half literate nonsense to offer in return, but I can offer a glimpse into our history.  And yeah, these books use big words.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/March-Titans...974230332/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> 
> Of course, we must never forget Gibbon.  I prefer the Modern Library edition, but I'm listing another because it has more reviews.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Decline-Empi...keywords=decline+and+fall+of+the+roman+empire
> 
> This is an interesting item.  A scholarly work used in many university courses, it has been nonetheless subjected to intense attacks.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Search-Indo-...1508541062&sr=1-1&keywords=the+indo-europeans



I made no such attack on whites.  Post #188 lists 5 things from an ARTICLE - I said that in my post AND quoted the source. You obviously have chosen to interpret and misread what was posted. Perhaps some others agree with you, and if so then that's just the way it will have to be.

I also have no idea what you mean by "half-literate nonsense".  That's not a question; I'm not asking because it doesn't matter that much to me, and I'm not interested in your "literacy" or your links.


----------



## applecruncher

Cap'nSacto said:


> Here’s a better question, applecruncher (and thank you in advance):
> 
> [Earlier I asked: Imagine that a great majority of people (let’s say upwards of 80%) finally get it…Racial prejudice exists only among tiny, insignificant groups, and they are fading fast…what is the next step?]
> 
> In that example, I suppose the next step would be that we go on and enjoy our lives free from the destruction and pain of racial prejudice.
> 
> So, I think a more relevant question is; How will we know we are there?



Not an issue; it won't happen anytime soon.  Certainly not in our lifetime.


----------



## hearlady

applecruncher said:


> *@hearlady*
> 
> Apparently I didn't make myself clear. At no time did I say that people should not respect themselves and others.  So please don't even try to imply that I said that.
> 
> What I did say was that simply saying "we should treat each other with respect" is NOT, in and of itself, a solution to the world's racial problems. Those ARE just words. Like Rodney King's "Can't we all just get along".
> 
> I don't know how to make myself clearer about this.



I'm absolutely sure you did not say that people  should not respect themselves and others.
I'm absolutely not implying that you did.
I don't think respecting ourselves and others is a solution in itself.
I stand by my statement that respecting ourselves and others IS PART of the solution. 
Props to Rodney BTW


----------



## hearlady

Big Horn said:


> I appreciate the OP's honesty in her attack on Whites in her last post.  I have no competing selection of half literate nonsense to offer in return, but I can offer a glimpse into our history.  And yeah, these books use big words.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/March-Titans...974230332/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> 
> Of course, we must never forget Gibbon.  I prefer the Modern Library edition, but I'm listing another because it has more reviews.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Decline-Empi...keywords=decline+and+fall+of+the+roman+empire
> 
> This is an interesting item.  A scholarly work used in many university courses, it has been nonetheless subjected to intense attacks.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Search-Indo-...1508541062&sr=1-1&keywords=the+indo-europeans



Again, Respect.


----------



## Gary O'

Well, looky there, this thread has caught me on a writing jag.

Forgive me.

I’m sure I’m prejudiced
I’m pretty sure everone is


Raised in the hills of Vernonia Oregon
Yes
Back woods
Not many blacks
Actually, none
Except one family
Up the hill from us
The Goodwins
Wonderful family
The father, a mountain of a man
A very nice man
Hard working
Built a fine house
The mother, sweet, accomplished
The kids, two boys, one girl
Our playmates
I knew they were different
They kidded me about it
Never a real issue

Folks burned ‘em out
Yes
Burned ‘em out

My folks were not instructional
Just taught us by example

Not sure the term ‘prejudice’ was bandied about that much in the mid-fifties. At least in our neck o’ the woods.   

But they sat us down that day and explained unmitigated hatred to us
Hatred without reason

I was three






From then on I became prejudiced
Prejudiced against my own people

Oh, I don’t come a runnin’and huggin’ when I see folks of another color. 
But I have some knowledge, some understanding….some.

My family is ’mixed’

Afro, mexi, native American, Irish
My wife is Cherokee   

I like it that way





However
If some punk gangbangers, any race, gives me or mine any grief, I’m libel to take a few moments of my time, jerk the little sweethearts outa their vehicle.....and spank ‘em.
You know, treat ‘em as my own.

It has happened

I'm not easily trifled with






I admire your comments, applecruncher
(even though I hate the sound of apple crunching)

Keep a fire

On another note
Found out what it’s like to be in the minority
In mainland China
Parts of South America

Not too comfy
Nosir


----------



## applecruncher

Gary O' - that baby!  :heart:


----------



## Gary O'

applecruncher said:


> Gary O' - that baby!  :heart:


He wasn't too hot on hugs from Papaw
Didn't stop me...heh heh


----------



## hearlady

Gary O',  I naively thought your story would end happily for the Goodwins. It's horrifying.

I lived and worked in Panama for four years. They only spoke Spanish at my workplace so my two years of it in school was helpful. Plus I was a young woman so I got plenty of help from the young men. 

You seem to be a wise man. Your little grandbaby is adorable and will love that picture when he gets older!


----------



## hearlady

https://www.alternet.org/print/civil-liberties/why-i-dont-talk-about-race-white-people

I read this last night. Gary O' is right Applecruncher, keep a fire.


----------



## Gary O'

hearlady said:


> Gary O',  I naively thought your story would end happily for the Goodwins. It's horrifying.



Truly was
We kept contact thru the years
The mom was high up in the medical field
The kids educated themselves
Became examples in their communities
Funny...how some folks rise above, no matter what....


----------



## Gary O'

hearlady said:


> Your little grandbaby is adorable and will love that picture when he gets older!



He does
He just turned 15
We joke around a lot
A
Lot

His brother has risen above some difficulties
Has become one to admire
He's chosen me as his mentor in a youth program
Quite the honor for this ol' coot

I'll expound on another thread


----------



## BobF

Trade said:


> Really?
> 
> When was that?
> 
> When I first went to work for FDOT in 1976 they had us in a building on US 17 South that was known as "The old bait factory" because at one time they had made artificial fishing lures there. Are you familiar with it? Was it a bait factory when you went there? I was in the Planning Department and we were the red headed stepchild of the FDOT and we didn't rate space in the main building at the corner of US 98 and SR 60. If you were there before 1970 the name would have been the State Road Department. It was changed to the Florida Department of Transportation later.



Apparently long before your time in Bartow as we were there in the late 1950's and 1960's time frame prior to moving to California.    Remember I spoke of visiting my aunt and uncle and not about living their enough to learn about the town features.   Then in the 1960's I was sent from my California job to the one they had in Boca Raton.   Some 60 or so yearsback and the dates do get fuzzy.


----------



## Trade

hearlady said:


> I agree with your 5 things, applecruncher.
> 
> However, treating people with respect are not just words.
> 
> One day I had 2 retired black teachers in my waiting room. They recognized each other and got to talking. One was a man and had retired many years ago. The woman retired many years ago but came back and was still working last I knew.
> They talked about how horrible the teenagers were these days. "Twenty years ago if you got in trouble at school you got in trouble at home. Now they make fun of my clothes, they curse at me and if they get punished the parents come and threaten me. They have no respect for anyone. "
> 
> They have no respect for themselves. Learning respect for yourself and others IS part of the solution.





That's not a racial issue. That's a generational issue. Old people have been complaining about teenagers since time immemorial. You should have heard the old fart they got to speak at our High School graduation. He bitched us out the whole time about how the younger generation was going to be the ruination of society. That was in 1965, which is now considered the "good old days". I have heard that there are writings on the inside walls of the pyramids complaining about how bad kids are.


----------



## DaveA

For those of you who have never seen a designated rest room or water bubbler etc.,, here's a pic of a *restored* railroad depot in Punta Gorda, FL. taken in 2009.  It's a historic building  and I believe that the rear of the building houses an antique shop.  Being a New Englander, this was my first and only view of one of these "places". You can see the last couple of letters on the left leading to the "white" restroom.

With the exception of this reminder of sadder times the restoration is quite well done and slow freight trains still pass by on the adjacent railline.






And here's the complete structure.


----------



## CeeCee

DaveA said:


> For those of you who have never seen a designated rest room or water bubbler etc.,, here's a pic of a *restored* railroad depot in Punta Gorda, FL. taken in 2009.  It's a historic building  and I believe that the rear of the building houses an antique shop.  Being a New Englander, this was my first and only view of one of these "places". You can see the last couple of letters on the left leading to the "white" restroom.
> 
> With the exception of this reminder of sadder times the restoration is quite well done and slow freight trains still pass by on the adjacent railline.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's the complete structure.




Ive never seen any in places Ive lived throughout my life, just in pictures.


----------



## hearlady

Trade said:


> That's not a racial issue. That's a generational issue. Old people have been complaining about teenagers since time immemorial. You should have heard the old fart they got to speak at our High School graduation. He bitched us out the whole time about how the younger generation was going to be the ruination of society. That was in 1965, which is now considered the "good old days". I have heard that there are writings on the inside walls of the pyramids complaining about how bad kids are.



I suppose that example is generational, Trade.


----------



## ray188

Three thoughts:
1) Much has been made about the need for majority people to understand the feelings of the minority people. How about minority people accepting the reality of the world that will never change. That does not mean people should be treated different but they appear different, but there will always be minorities - accept it
2) Many people tend to enjoy the company of their contemporaries and peers peers. That can also apply to race. It is not an insult, it is just a comfort level. I cannot see myself hanging around with gen-xers. Am I an "ageist"? 
3) Words are just words - intent matters. Many moons ago (late '60s) a few of us were having a discussion along these lines. I argued as stated in the start of this line, others took the opposite. To make the point I went over to a Hispanic co-worker and said, "Hey, Juan, if I called you a spic, would I offend you?". He thought a bit and said, "No. But if Harry did, I'd kick his butt". Those words of wisdom remain with me today - it wasn't the word, it was the meaning based on our relationship.


----------



## NancyNGA

Warning: Want it to hurt just a little bit more? Hypocrisy.



Spoiler



View attachment 43641


----------



## BobF

ray188 said:


> Three thoughts:
> 1) Much has been made about the need for majority people to understand the feelings of the minority people. How about minority people accepting the reality of the world that will never change. That does not mean people should be treated different but they appear different, but there will always be minorities - accept it
> 2) Many people tend to enjoy the company of their contemporaries and peers peers. That can also apply to race. It is not an insult, it is just a comfort level. I cannot see myself hanging around with gen-xers. Am I an "ageist"?
> 3) Words are just words - intent matters. Many moons ago (late '60s) a few of us were having a discussion along these lines. I argued as stated in the start of this line, others took the opposite. To make the point I went over to a Hispanic co-worker and said, "Hey, Juan, if I called you a spic, would I offend you?". He thought a bit and said, "No. But if Harry did, I'd kick his butt". Those words of wisdom remain with me today - it wasn't the word, it was the meaning based on our relationship.



I believe the US is now about equal between the whites and blacks.    Maybe even more blacks than whites.   So do we now come around with black neighborhoods and no whites allowed?   We do have China town districts in many cities.   Once upon a time we had a German district in Columbus Ohio.   It may still be there.    There were Greek districts, Italian, Spanish areas.   Even down to Catholic areas or non Catholic areas.

Many, if not most, of these separate communities have withered and failed, yet we continue to bring them on to ourselves all the time.


----------



## applecruncher

BobF said:


> I believe the US is now about equal between the whites and blacks.    Maybe even more blacks than whites.   So do we know come around with black neighborhoods and no whites allowed?   We do have China town districts in many cities.   Once upon a time we had a German district in Columbus Ohio.   It may still be there.    There were Greek districts, Italian, Spanish areas.   Even down to Catholic areas or non Catholic areas.
> 
> Many, if not most, of these separate communities have withered and failed, yet we continue to bring them on to ourselves all the time.



*@Bob F*

You're way off re: number of whites vs blacks in US; it's not even close to being equal.

_As of July 2016, white Americans are the *racial* majority. African Americans are the largest *racial* minority, amounting to 13.3% of the *population*. Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 17.8% of the total *U.S. population*, making up the largest *ethnic *minority.

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States

The area you refer to in Columbus is German Village on the edge of downtown.  Various races live there, but mostly white although I don't know how many actual Germans.  It's somewhat of a trendy. tourist area - cobblestone streets, quaint shops, and lots of good restaurants and delis which are quite busy at lunch time since they're close to the downtown business district and also the court houses. .  Homes in German Village are large, old, mostly 2-story brick houses and very expensive. There are some rentals, but very few. Streets in GV are crowded, houses are close together and parking is often a nightmare.

As far as exclusion of any race from a neighborhood, that's illegal.


----------



## Cap'nSacto

Applecruncher, I want to address one of the 10 “excuses used” in the video you shared.

My paternal grandmother was Irish. Indeed, slavery and indentured servitude are different animals, but being an indentured servant was no walk in the park, which is why it was included in the Emancipation/Anti-slavery laws.

I’d like all blacks to know that it’s demeaning when they minimize the hardships and built-in exploitative aspects of indentured servitude, like it’s no big deal.

Indentured servitude. The "master" paid for the servant up-front to a sponsor, family member, agent, or jailer. In some cases, the servant paid his or her own indenture. The indenture term could be as few as 5 years or as long as 20, but was generally 10 to 15 years. During the term, the servant was not paid, but was provided “basic necessities.” At the end of the term the servant was freed _unless his or her master extended the term_. The servant had no say in this matter, and until the import of slaves from Africa greatly increased, extending indenture terms was a common practice.

Indentured servants could not marry without permission from their master, were subject to physical punishment, and had no legal rights. A master could sell his indentured servant before the term was completed, and a new length of term was decided. In these cases, the going rate for an Irish servant was $5. The going rate for a black slave was double that amount on average, but of course, the “term” of his or her enslavement was a _lifetime_.

The motivation for entering into indentured service was getting passage to a foreign land (not only America). Irish indentured servants included the poor, fugitives, and convicts, but also included tens of thousands of young men and women who were abducted. (Some argue that number was as high as 300,000 in pre-Revolutionary era.)

In addition to the benefit of eventually being freed, Irish indentured servants could more easily escape their masters because they were white and able to blend into almost any community. Indentured servitude was outlawed in the USA after the Civil War. Prior to that, in 1833, Britain cracked down on false indenture contracts – free Irish falsifying indenture contracts on family members to get them free passage to America – causing increased scrutiny of all indenture contracts and a slight decline in indentured servitude.


----------



## applecruncher

*@Cap'nSacto*



> I’d like *all blacks *to know that it’s demeaning when they minimize the hardships and built-in exploitative aspects of indentured servitude, like it’s no big deal.





*All blacks *don't do that, and to take it a step further I don't know of *any* who do.  While there may be some who do what you're complaining about it's certainly nowhere near to the extent that you're alleging.

I'm not seeing what indentured servants have to do with racism.  White people being indebted to other white people.  :shrug:


----------



## BobF

applecruncher said:


> *@Bob F*
> 
> You're way off re: number of whites vs blacks in US; it's not even close to being equal.
> 
> _As of July 2016, white Americans are the *racial* majority. African Americans are the largest *racial* minority, amounting to 13.3% of the *population*. Hispanic and Latino Americans amount to 17.8% of the total *U.S. population*, making up the largest *ethnic *minority.
> 
> _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States
> 
> The area you refer to in Columbus is German Village on the edge of downtown.  Various races live there, but mostly white although I don't know how many actual Germans.  It's somewhat of a trendy. tourist area - cobblestone streets, quaint shops, and lots of good restaurants and delis which are quite busy at lunch time since they're close to the downtown business district and also the court houses. .  Homes in German Village are large, old, mostly 2-story brick houses and very expensive. There are some rentals, but very few. Streets in GV are crowded, houses are close together and parking is often a nightmare.
> 
> As far as exclusion of any race from a neighborhood, that's illegal.



From what you posted I am way wrong in my comments.    I was thinking of a news comment or writing from a bunch of years back.  If I knew who or where I would definitely make your comment known to them.

From your comments about German Village I would guess you have at least been there as a visitor.   Or maybe you live in the area.

My sister and her husband, met in Ohio State and made it a lifetime agreement, had me stop in their to visit while on my way to California way back when.   They had bought a house in the German area as an investment and were in the process of modernizing as much as they could and also stay within the guidelines of the association.   After a couple years they sold and moved to where their jobs took them.   Her husband had gotten into some sort of government accountant or book keep job.   They did move some but mostly lived in New York state, near the state capital.   I visited there with them and was invited by my sister to go to NYC and look around.   I refused as my experiences in most cities was rather disappointing.  

Sorry if I gave some folks false images of a new USA soon.   Thanks for your inputs.


----------



## AZ Jim

Reading some of the exchanges here is the reason I do not enter these "discussions". Too personal, too many thin skinned participants.


----------



## applecruncher

*@Bob F*



> From your comments about German Village I would guess you have at least been there as a visitor.   Or maybe you live in the area.



I live in a suburb of Columbus.  Been to German Village quite a few times, but it's too crowded, houses too close together, and I'm not fond of cobblestone streets. However, there is a deli that is _to.die.for_.  Yum.


----------



## hearlady

AZ Jim said:


> Reading some of the exchanges here is the reason I do not enter these "discussions". Too personal, too many thin skinned participants.



I know we won't solve racism here but if we can get anything, any tidbit of understanding, I think it's worth the jibs and jabs.

I did look up jibs and jabs to make sure it isn't a racist term. I'm serious. I'm thin skinned and I shutter to think I might offend someone. Maybe I was thinking of jive which isn't a racist term either. I checked.
I obviously miss the silly side of this thread.


----------



## applecruncher




----------



## hearlady

Haha! I remember that!


----------



## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> *@Cap'nSacto*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *All blacks *don't do that, and to take it a step further I don't know of *any* who do.  While there may be some who do what you're complaining about it's certainly nowhere near to the extent that you're alleging.
> 
> I'm not seeing what indentured servants have to do with racism.  White people being indebted to other white people.  :shrug:



I would like all blacks to know, not because all blacks do it but because it was mentioned on the video you shared titled "10 excuses for prejudice.." (or something like that) and there are myths about the issue.
Irish people were initially placed in indentured servitude by the British because they were considered an inferior people. 
Shrugs here, too.


----------



## applecruncher

Cap'nSacto,  white people treating other white people in an inferior manner isn't racism.

I can't help you with your effort to let all blacks know (whatever).  I looked at the video again and I agree with it 100%.


----------



## oldman

I did not read all of the posts, so maybe I am repeating something that has already been printed. I was a pilot for 34 years. This is a business where we serve all colors and ethnics. At first, when I was young and somewhat dumb, I had certain ideas, or biases about certain races and ethnics. However, as I grew and matured, I learned that it's only reasonable to treat people as you want to be treated and unless you are disrespected, everyone should be shown respect and tolerance. 

When I was in the Marines and in Vietnam, I trusted everyone in my platoon to cover my back and I did the same for them. We didn't have time or the energy to fight among ourselves. We were to busy worrying about staying alive and fighting the enemy. We only had three Blacks, two Mexicans and one American Indian in our platoon, which was mostly white. A very low number in comparison to some other platoons. It didn't matter. We shared canteens with one another or slept against one another while holding our rifles for safety.


----------



## oldman

applecruncher said:


>



"Now, that's funny. I don't care who you are." 
               -Larry the Cable Guy-


----------



## Cap'nSacto

applecruncher said:


> Cap'nSacto,  white people treating other white people in an inferior manner isn't racism.
> 
> I can't help you with your effort to let all blacks know (whatever).  I looked at the video again and I agree with it 100%.



Except, for centuries before around 1944-45 or even later, “white” was not a race. Example: there were at least 5 different European races (ask any Jew). That’s why the original law read; (paraphrased) …shall not discriminate against people on the basis of race, creed, or color..

Anyway, pretty good discussion. A discussion, at least.


----------



## Trade

Cap'nSacto said:


> Except, for centuries before around 1944-45 or even later, “white” was not a race. Example: there were at least 5 different European races (ask any Jew). That’s why the original law read; (paraphrased) …shall not discriminate against people on the basis of race, creed, or color..
> 
> Anyway, pretty good discussion. A discussion, at least.



Jews could get by in Nazi Germany if they had a good set of forged documents. 

Black people in the Jim Crowe south, not so much


----------



## applecruncher

Trade said:


> Jews could get by in Nazi Germany if they had a good set of forged documents.
> 
> *Black people in the Jim Crowe south, not so much*



And blacks in apartheid South Africa........not at all.


----------



## applecruncher

*APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA*

After the National Party gained power in South Africa in 1948, its all-white government immediately began enforcing existing policies of racial segregation under a system of legislation that it called apartheid. Under apartheid, nonwhite South Africans (a majority of the population) would be forced to live in separate areas from whites and use separate public facilities, and contact between the two groups would be limited. Despite strong and consistent opposition to apartheid within and outside of South Africa, its laws remained in effect for the better part of 50 years. In 1991, the government of President F.W. de Klerk began to repeal most of the legislation that provided the basis for apartheid.

[h=2]Birth of Apartheid[/h]Racial segregation and white supremacy had become central aspects of South African policy long before apartheid began. The controversial 1913 Land Act, passed three years after South Africa gained its independence, marked the beginning of territorial segregation by forcing black Africans to live in reserves and making it illegal for them to work as sharecroppers. Opponents of the Land Act formed the South African National Native Congress, which would become the African National Congress (ANC).


The Great Depression and World War II brought increasing economic woes to South Africa, and convinced the government to strengthen its policies of racial segregation. In 1948, the Afrikaner National Party won the general election under the slogan “apartheid” (literally “separateness”). Their goal was not only to separate South Africa’s white minority from its non-white majority, but also to separate non-whites from each other, and to divide black South Africans along tribal lines in order to decrease their political power.

[h=2]Apartheid Becomes Law[/h]By 1950, the government had banned marriages between whites and people of other races, and prohibited ****** relations between black and white South Africans. The Population Registration Act of 1950 provided the basic framework for apartheid by classifying all South Africans by race, including Bantu (black Africans), Coloured (mixed race) and white. A fourth category, Asian (meaning Indian and Pakistani) was later added. In some cases, the legislation split families; parents could be classified as white, while their children were classified as colored.


A series of Land Acts set aside more than 80 percent of the country’s land for the white minority, and “pass laws” required non-whites to carry documents authorizing their presence in restricted areas. In order to limit contact between the races, the government established separate public facilities for whites and non-whites, limited the activity of nonwhite labor unions and denied non-white participation in national government.

Apartheid and Separate Development.

Dr. Hendrik Verwoerd, who became prime minister in 1958, would refine apartheid policy further into a system he referred to as “separate development.” The Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act of 1959 created 10 Bantu homelands known as Bantustans. Separating black South Africans from each other enabled the government to claim there was no black majority, and reduced the possibility that blacks would unify into one nationalist organization. Every black South African was designated as a citizen as one of the Bantustans, a system that supposedly gave them full political rights, but effectively removed them from the nation’s political body.

In one of the most devastating aspects of apartheid, the government forcibly removed black South Africans from rural areas designated as “white” to the homelands, and sold their land at low prices to white farmers. From 1961 to 1994, more than 3.5 million people were forcibly removed from their homes and deposited in the Bantustans, where they were plunged into poverty and hopelessness.

[h=2][/h][h=2]Opposition to Apartheid[/h]Resistance to apartheid within South Africa took many forms over the years, from non-violent demonstrations, protests and strikes to political action and eventually to armed resistance. Together with the South Indian National Congress, the ANC organized a mass meeting in 1952, during which attendees burned their pass books. A group calling itself the Congress of the People adopted a Freedom Charter in 1955 asserting that “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black or white.” The government broke up the meeting and arrested 150 people, charging them with high treason.


In 1960, at the black township of Sharpesville, the police opened fire on a group of unarmed blacks associated with the Pan-African Congress (PAC), an offshoot of the ANC. The group had arrived at the police station without passes, inviting arrest as an act of resistance. At least 67 blacks were killed and more than 180 wounded. Sharpesville convinced many anti-apartheid leaders that they could not achieve their objectives by peaceful means, and both the PAC and ANC established military wings, neither of which ever posed a serious military threat to the state. By 1961, most resistance leaders had been captured and sentenced to long prison terms or executed. Nelson Mandela, a founder of Umkhonto we Sizwe (“Spear of the Nation”), the military wing of the ANC, was incarcerated from 1963 to 1990; his imprisonment would draw international attention and help garner support for the anti-apartheid cause.


[h=2]Apartheid Comes to an End[/h]

In 1976, when thousands of black children in Soweto, a black township outside Johannesburg, demonstrated against the Afrikaans language requirement for black African students, the police opened fire with tear gas and bullets. The protests and government crackdowns that followed, combined with a national economic recession, drew more international attention to South Africa and shattered all illusions that apartheid had brought peace or prosperity to the nation. The United Nations General Assembly had denounced apartheid in 1973, and in 1976 the UN Security Council voted to impose a mandatory embargo on the sale of arms to South Africa. In 1985, the United Kingdom and United States imposed economic sanctions on the country.

Under pressure from the international community, the National Party government of Pieter Botha sought to institute some reforms, including abolition of the pass laws and the ban on interracial sex and marriage. The reforms fell short of any substantive change, however, and by 1989 Botha was pressured to step aside in favor of F.W. de Klerk. De Klerk’s government subsequently repealed the Population Registration Act, as well as most of the other legislation that formed the legal basis for apartheid. A new constitution, which enfranchised blacks and other racial groups, took effect in 1994, and elections that year led to a coalition government with a nonwhite majority, marking the official end of the apartheid system.

http://www.history.com/topics/apartheid


----------



## Trade




----------



## Wayne

So very true there I have seen it all my life.For some of the other comments good job on turning to a negative, yes ar birth all same from then on changes happen.


----------



## applecruncher

Remember the TV sitcom "Soap"?

One storyline was when Danny dated a black woman.  But he had a chip on his shoulder; i.e., when they went out he would get aggressive and start fights with people accusing them of being racist. _("What are you people looking at??")  _I have tried, but I can't find a video where he grabs some guy in a restaurant.

But I did find another funny scene - The Step Brothers: 
(RIP Robert Guillaume/Benson, who died today)


----------



## treeguy64

Cap'nSacto said:


> I hate beating the heck out of this, but the differences you refer to had nothing at all to do with race. I wouldn't doubt cases of physical differences, including skin color, inspiring one tribe  to decide to conquer another, but that is not in our DNA. It isn't a gene.
> 
> If I am wrong about that, please contact someone intimately involved in the science of genetics, post haste, and inform them, so that they may isolate this gene, and splice, alter, or eradicate it all together for the betterment of mankind!



We can keep beating it.  (Sounds bad.)  All behavior has underlying genetic influences.  That's simply the way it is.  If you haven't taken Genetics, I can't convince you, and you won't understand what I'm driving at, here.  There might be genes involved in visual perception, olfactory discrimination, more subtle ways one perceives differences, etc., etc.  My point, and if you keep coming back, rest assured I will, is that those organisms that failed to note differences, BECAUSE OF THEIR GENETIC MAKEUP, were less apt to procreate because they did not survive long enough to, because they were dispatched by the very different species/tribe/group they failed to recognize as being different from themselves.  I will patiently keep explaining, to you, the rudimentary science I'm drawing on, but if you refuse to see what's what, then you will keep yourself in the dark, no matter what I post.  Oh well.


----------



## Trade

I thought Robert Downey Jr. was hilarious as playing a white guy playing a black guy in the movie Tropic Thunder. 

Caution though this movie had a lot of raunchy language in it.


----------



## Sassycakes

I was very lucky that neither my Mother or Father were racists. I was taught to treat everyone with respect ,no matter what  race or Nationality. Of course I saw racism all around me ,my neighborhood ,school etc. Even when I started dating my husband who was Irish I saw it. My Father's Mother would introduce us saying "Barbara is my Granddaughter and John is her boyfriend, he's Irish but he is nice." My Husband's Mother would always say "Dear God ,save me from the Diago's(sp),but not you Barbara because you are nice." Every nationality had their prejudice's but even at that I don't think any white person went through the terrible abuse that the Black people have been going through their entire lives around many people.


----------



## Warrigal

Sassycakes said:


> " Every nationality had their prejudice's but even at that I don't think any white person went through the terrible abuse that the Black people have been going through their entire lives around many people.



QFT Certainly applies in Australia.


----------



## applecruncher

In the 1990s -- not all that long ago - a white co-worker was telling me about someone who was recently hired in another dept.  "She's black, *but she's nice*."  Such statements are common, and the people saying such things _see nothing wrong with it_.  mg1: The ignorance boggles the mind.

I guess she meant the other woman had a pretty smile and wasn't an axe-murderess.


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## hearlady

I still hear that but maybe it's more in the south and more from elderly people in the south.
That's more weird that your co-worker would say that to you. It would actually be less weird if she said the new person was black "so you two should get along well." I said less weird.


----------



## Warrigal

I think I turned a corner during the famine in Ethiopia last century. 

On the TV I saw footage of a little boy in a hospital who was clearly starving to death. He did die later. By his side was his father. He never said a word, just sat at his son's bedside with tears silently streaming down his cheeks.

I think this was probably the first time that I wasn't focussed on his race. He certainly looked a lot different to me and mine, but what I saw was a parent, a parent like me, who was in awful pain and I cried with him. I'm crying now as I remember.

The famine was caused by drought but exacerbated by the war between the Ethiopians and the Eritreans. If race means anything, they were of the same race and should have been brothers and sisters but war has no empathy, for the most part. I have hated war mongers ever since. I even wrote to our PM before he committed our troops to Gulf War 2.0, arguing the horrors that would be inflicted on Iraqi women and children. 

He wrote back, talking about weapons of mass destruction. As if disease and famine don't kill people.

Sorry about the detour but racism dies when you are able to see someone else as family.


----------



## Shalimar

Warrigal said:


> I think I turned a corner during the famine in Ethiopia last century.
> 
> On the TV I saw footage of a little boy in a hospital who was clearly starving to death. He did die later. By his side was his father. He never said a word, just sat at his son's bedside with tears silently streaming down his cheeks.
> 
> I think this was probably the first time that I wasn't focussed on his race. He certainly looked a lot different to me and mine, but what I saw was a parent, a parent like me, who was in awful pain and I cried with him. I'm crying now as I remember.
> 
> The famine was caused by drought but exacerbated by the war between the Ethiopians and the Eritreans. If race means anything, they were of the same race and should have been brothers and sisters but war has no empathy, for the most part. I have hated war mongers ever since. I even wrote to our PM before he committed our troops to Gulf War 2.0, arguing the horrors that would be inflicted on Iraqi women and children.
> 
> He wrote back, talking about weapons of mass destruction. As if disease and famine don't kill people.
> 
> Sorry about the detour but racism dies when you are able to see someone else as family.


Beautifully put, in the end, the truth is, we are all "us." Anything else lacks humanity.


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## oldman

applecruncher said:


> In the 1990s -- not all that long ago - a white co-worker was telling me about someone who was recently hired in another dept.  "She's black, *but she's nice*."  Such statements are common, and the people saying such things _see nothing wrong with it_.  mg1: The ignorance boggles the mind.
> 
> I guess she meant the other woman had a pretty smile and wasn't an axe-murderess.



I've heard similar comments like, "He's good looking for a black man." Or, "She's a doll for a black lady." I once dated a really light skinned black girl just after high school that I had met at a dance. My parents were far from being racists being that my dad had a career in the military and we had black guys in and out of our home constantly. We only dated two or three times and we were never considered boyfriend-girlfriend, just friends. I didn't see it any different than if I was with a white girl. Of course, we heard a few rude comments, but back in the 60's that was commonplace. I never got to the point where she took me home to meet her parents, but I did meet her brother out at a restaurant one night and he never made an issue out of us being together or did he make any comments of any sort. (At least not when I was around.) Heck, he was a professor at Penn State teaching chemistry.


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## Gary O'

Warrigal said:


> Sorry about the detour but racism dies when you are able to see someone else as family.



So very true

Conversing one on one sometimes helps to dissolve pre judgments 

Basically, just getting to know one another


When spiritually touching mutual souls/hearts, genuine conversation, not what thought to be acceptable...friendships occur..differences become few...sometimes


----------



## Big Horn

Gary O' said:


> So very true
> 
> Conversing one on one sometimes helps to dissolve pre judgments
> 
> Basically, just getting to know one another
> 
> 
> When spiritually touching mutual souls/hearts, genuine conversation, not what thought to be acceptable...friendships occur..differences become few...sometimes


You previously said that this happened in jail.




Gary O' said:


> yes
> 
> found this out (of all places) in jail
> 
> nutshell of it all, is getting to know one another
> 
> (sometimes it fosters a true hate with good cause, heh heh)


----------



## Gary O'

Big Horn said:


> You previously said that this happened in jail.



Yes

I'm sure you have a point....?

Thru the years I've had many a time with folks of a different culture or upbringing

I'd like to share a most recent one (forgive me, applecruncher, for straying a bit off topic);

I have come to know many an individual
Some so remarkable I just look
In awe

Quite a few have had many tough struggles in life
And have come thru
Shinning

Countless stories have been written about folks like these
Reader’s Digest used to be full of ‘em

There is one I’m focused on right now
Nuthin’ glorious, to speak of
Heh, on the surface, her life has been pretty much unspeakable from my perspective
See, her ‘****** orientation’, as is the PC phrase of today, is with the same
I’m so biased I can’t even put it in proper English

Anyway

She’s not a lesbian 
I think the street term is ‘Bull Dyke’

Born with physical defects
Hands, one arm, sorta screwed up
If that wasn’t enough, not long ago she was in a horrific auto accident
People died
She didn’t
Just got more physically screwed up
Large gal
Man features
But a female

First look
Somebody totally unlovable
By
Anyone

Yet
She has this, this attitude
That I so admire
Sardonic
Matter of fact
A fixed grimace that, if closely examined, is a reluctant smile
Brutal truths told with a shrug
An outlook on life that speaks nothing but courage

At one time I would have disgustedly prejudged 
Not would’ve considered my thinking wrong

Now?
I would be proud to introduce my friend to anyone
Except
I’m a bit over protective of her
Don’t want to see her hurt more
If we were in a bar together
Well, there’d be many a fight

Other’n that, I have no reservation about my friend
She has given me a new perspective on folks

Her story would never have made Reader’s Digest
Or prolly most Christian periodicals

But

She’s my hero


----------



## oldman

What do you think about comedians that exploit their color to get laughs. The following is an example of what I am referring to. (The "N" word is used quite frequently.)


----------



## hearlady

Gary O' I would bet your friend feels the same about you. 
I try not to prejudice people because I have met some wonderful people that I wouldn't have otherwise.
Some are precious because of what they've come through and can raise our own spirit.

Old man: I don't like some of Chris Rock's language but he is very funny! Imo


----------



## Trade

oldman said:


> What do you think about comedians that exploit their color to get laughs. The following is an example of what I am referring to. (The "N" word is used quite frequently.)
> 
> I have no problem with it at all. To me it's all about context.


----------



## Bajabob

Racism has many forms. Some are lethal, and some are merely curious. In the latter category is the fact that on TV, if they're depicting an imaginary crime, they always choose a white person to perform that role. The reason is obvious. If they chose a black actor, they would be accused of racism.


----------



## Trade

Bajabob said:


> In the latter category is the fact that on TV, if they're depicting an imaginary crime, they always choose a white person to perform that role.



You must not be watching the same TV shows I do.


----------



## hearlady

Sunny said:


> This is a great discussion. I've enjoyed reading it.
> 
> About the question of why the N word is supposedly all right when used by black people but not by anyone else, here's a guess on my part:  Maybe it's a way of disempowering the word. If it's used jokingly, commonly, all the time, including by the people it refers to, maybe it loses its capacity to hurt?  (Probably not, but that may be the thinking behind it.)



I have asked myself the very same thing and it reminded me when watching the Chris Rock clip.
Lenny Bruce did a skit in the 50s (maybe 60s) using the word over and over along with several other ethnic slurs directed at people in the audience. He said if President Kennedy would use the word to describe the ni#+s in his cabinet etc maybe the word would lose some meaning. 
It likely did not work for white people to try that but maybe black people got the same idea?
It is a word that provokes as a white person so I can only imagine if I was black.


----------



## applecruncher

Trade said:


> You must not be watching the same TV shows I do.



Heh, I hear ya.


----------



## Lon

When I was in the military (Air Force) for a four year enlistment during the Korean War 1953-57. I was on the receiving end of many predjudicial comments because I was from California and had gone to school with so many of mixed race and surely must be homosexual because of California's tolerance re:Gays.I hate to pick on Southerners but most of these negative comments came from ignorant Red Necks that were still fighting the Civil War. I was not only a YANKEE to them but a N----r Lover as well. I married a girl from Tampa, Florida whose entire family were hard core racists and I could tell you stories about these folks that would curl your hair. She and I never had a problem about this and we had a great 33 year marriage and she loved my Asian friends.


----------



## teatime

Racism where I live has become Hispanics, some of them are very aggressive especially towards black females. I am experiencing hispanics who are trying to gather me into their community and culture and I don't want it. I am friendly, but I don't want to be surrounded by a culture I am not familiar with. There are several in my work place and they won't accept "no" for an answer. They are abusing me and stalking me in the work place. I am a black female and of course some of them are very attractive. They seem to want to stalk me and find men. Black men are very attracted to them so I guess I am leading them to black men


----------



## hearlady

teatime said:


> Racism where I live has become Hispanics, some of them are very aggressive especially towards black females. I am experiencing hispanics who are trying to gather me into their community and culture and I don't want it. I am friendly, but I don't want to be surrounded by a culture I am not familiar with. There are several in my work place and they won't accept "no" for an answer. They are abusing me and stalking me in the work place. I am a black female and of course some of them are very attractive. They seem to want to stalk me and find men. Black men are very attracted to them so I guess I am leading them to black men


I'm sorry you feel you're being abused teatime. Have you talked with your HR about this?


----------



## hearlady

Is this racist?

There are many deteriorating malls in my surrounding area. Some are closed with maybe one anchor store or restaurant. 
Business seems to have moved to newer trendy neighborhoods.

One mall in particular has a movie theater adjacent that is also closed.
The surrounding area is predominantly black, in fact the town is slightly more black than white.

One day I told my husband that if I had the money I would buy that mall and theatre. I would encourage black business owners that would open shops geared toward the black community. I would encourage them to hire youth from the surrounding neighborhood and also encourage businesses promoting fun for children and teens. I would open the theatre and promote family films with good role models.
I would open it hoping to make money but also hoping to promote something good in that part of town.

The more I thought about it it would be better if someone that grew up in this community and was successful give back by doing this. I don't know of anyone offhand with the money it would take.

Security would be tight as the mall is currently drawing in crime. It would need to be a safe place to work and play and shop.

I guess he thinks it's racist because I would gear it toward blacks but like BET network whites are welcome but if they don't come who cares. Maybe that's racist. Who knows? Lol


----------



## Warrigal

Sounds like you need a community grant and a not for profit community organisation to work with.

Money can always be found for good projects - you just need to know how to access it.


----------



## hearlady

Well, that sounds too much like another "program" to help disadvantaged youth. 
I would like to see a thriving entrepreneurship that happens to help disadvantaged youth and helps a community thrive.


----------



## oldman

In 2007, United came out with a new policy. The policy stated that anyone who uses profanity that would be offensive to someone, that uses language that refers to a person's race or religion and is also offensive, or tells jokes or stories that contains words that are not acceptable in mixed company "may" be terminated without notice. (Those are not the exact words and I do not have the copy in front of me at the moment.)

A few weeks later, I was speaking with a mechanic on the phone while I was in the crew's lounge and he was telling me about an issue (minor in nature) with the plane that I was taking up that day. He told me that he did not have the proper part to fix it according to procedure, so he did the next best thing and "n____r-rigged" it just to get the plane back in service. He was letting me know what he did, so I could make the decision as to whether to fly the plane or not. I thanked him for the information, but I reminded him that the Chief Mechanic has the responsibility of making that decision and also making the call to me, as well. He told me that he was still fairly new with the company and the airline where he came from didn't do it that way, but in the future he would comply with United's policy.

At that point, I thought that I should also remind him of the new policy with using the "N" word, but decided not to and instead, I would speak with the Chief Mechanic. I made a quick call and told the CM what had transpired and asked him to only remind the new guy of our policy, so he doesn't get himself reported by someone that isn't as tolerant as I am. Instead, the big mouth CM has to make a big deal out of it by writing him up. Luckily, he was not fired, but did get three days on the street with no pay. That was one of the few times that I was really upset with anyone at work. To me, it was a slip of the tongue and should have just been a verbal warning. I have had F/A's drop the "F" bomb and as long as no one else heard it, I would just put my finger over my lips and shke my head NO to remind them not to use that word. People get the idea without having someone jump all over them or make a scene.


----------



## oldman

Trade said:


> oldman said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about comedians that exploit their color to get laughs. The following is an example of what I am referring to. (The "N" word is used quite frequently.)
> 
> I have no problem with it at all. To me it's all about context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, am I to believe that you think that it's OK to use these words used by Chris Rock in the video, so long as they are not used in a manner meant to offend?
Click to expand...


----------



## Warrigal

I think that would depend on who is saying it, the tone of voice, facial expression and relationship with the audience. Who was the actor who once said "Smile when you say that?  However, in general I would say no, it is not OK. We can and should choose our words carefully or risk alienation and hurt. Especially so in front of children.


----------



## Gary O'

oldman said:


> Trade said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, am I to believe that you think that it's OK to use these words used by Chris Rock in the video, so long as they are not used in a manner meant to offend?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mind if I slide the subject over a bit with the intent to give my opine on why some words/phrases are accepted in certain circles?
> No?
> Goody
> I wanna delineate a bit with what has been called…well, I don’t know what it’s been called because it’s all so disgusting to wimin they can’t seem to even talk about it amongst themselves.
> 
> But
> For the sake of needing a label, I’ll call it ‘manjango’
> 
> I, alota times, find myself hanging with younger folk
> This is happening more and more as I age (my older friends are dropping like flies)
> Anyway, they come over to the shop
> We talk about things
> How to do things
> Why wimin are how they are
> Why our kids wanna kill us
> Guns
> Sports
> Politics
> Everything
> Sometimes we even get a project done
> But
> During all this, we may say and do (what seems) some very vile things to each other
> You know, grabass, name calling, obscene ****** references, the usual horseplay.
> Now, if some stranger came up and started doing all that, he’d be flattened within a couple heartbeats.
> 
> I think the same goes for racial slurs
> Some circles, OK
> A black friend and I happen to call each other everything vile we can think of
> 
> And now, well, it’d feel strange if we didn’t
> 
> (sigh)
> 
> 
> I'll be outside, gazing up at the shiny holes in the sky, pondering profundity
Click to expand...


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## Warrigal

I hear what you are saying. Context is everything.



> I think that would depend on who is saying it, the tone of voice, facial expression and relationship with the audience



Having said that, being a rather prim ex school marm, don't even think of it if I am within earshot. :grin:


----------



## Linda W.

Some families are just more accepting than others. My family was white and yet somehow I never picked up on race much at first as a small child...I just never noticed much. We were poor and started moving around once I was in school. Civil rights started to be a big thing when I was in middle school. At first, I think I thought it was bad...all that "outsiders" talk...and yet, hadn't I felt like an outsider many times? 

Integration was started when I was in high school...by that time I just felt like it was too bad it hadn't always been that way. My sister married a Hispanic-American guy...my parents thought he was a good guy (although it just seemed to me they were both too young at the time). Later, I met and married an arab from N. Africa and my parents accepted him also. Back then, somehow there didn't seem to be as much hatred of them as there is now...although I'm sure some of the relatives thought both of us were nuts.

 My other sister and brother married people ethnically more like themselves. So my family is more diverse than many in Texas. I hate the way it has become now, more hatred and racism in the country, at least there seems to be more.


----------



## oldman

Dame: I respectfully disagree. I think there are words that just should never be said, regardless who we are speaking to or with, especially with the way social media has come to the forefront as a tool that can be used for or against us. I also believe that it does not matter if you taught grammar, English or any other etiquette. I remember back years ago when I was speaking with a friend of mine in college and he aced a test that I should have done the same, but didn't. I smiled at him and called him one lucky S.O.B. His smiling face suddenly changed to a mean scowl and he told me that if I ever called him that again, he would turn my lights out and even though I am 6'4" and he was a mere 5'7", I believe that he could and would do it. 

What we may think is funny, silly or just "teasing" to someone may be offensive to another. I am not saying that we can't have fun and call someone an uncommon name from time to time like, if I would meet an old friend in a mall and I would say to him, "Hey, you old dog, where have you been hiding?" Wouldn't that be better than saying to the same person, "Hey, you old S.O.B., where have you been hiding?" It may be context, but there are limits. I grew up in a family where my Dad was a career man in the military and we were taught to respect one another. Using those teachings, I hardly believe my Dad would approve of me calling my black friends N_____s, or my white friends Crackers. "Hey, Cracker, how are you feeling today?" 

Just my opinion.


----------



## Warrigal

Hmm. Let me think that out again.

When I was a child I only ever heard three swear words - the Great Australian Adjective - "bloody", and "bugger" and "damn". I wasn't allowed to say any of them.

As I matured and read widely I learned many, many more examples of profanity but for the most part I do not use them because I don't need to. If I burn myself I do tend to let out a short expletive related to bathroom function.

I also learned that for the most part, a word is just a word but words can be weaponised to attack and wound people. An Englishman might think the word "bastard" is a terrible insult but in Australia it can be good or bad. To greet someone with "G'day, you old bastard", means you are greeting a friend and no-one turns a hair. On the other hand if you say someone is a "real bastard" you have issued a very negative character assessment. Fighting might result.

Most Australians are puzzled by the word "cow" being such an offensive word to call a woman by the English. We consider this quite mild. I would far rather this than the current c word, or have I missed the point. Is cow actually a euphemism for something worse? :shrug:

I have my own standards for me and my circle. I won't tolerate words that demean women or that are obviously racist. Or conversations that are the same but I also concede that in certain closed groups there may be different interpretations of the intent.


----------



## hearlady

In the context of joking around with immediate family members we don't call people those names. The words may come up, there may be stereotyping.
These are the people that know you don't hate people and are kind and respectful.
It doesn't mean two faced. It's because you would never want to hurt someone with those words so they are said only around people who know your heart.

There is joking around in the world and laughter is important. When it comes to race or ethnicity you have to be careful. People can get hurt. You don't know how someone will react.
Big brother is watching so people have said something that would otherwise be forgotten but now goes viral on the internet and their life is ruined. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes a real shame.
Comedians cross lines. That's their job. You have a choice to see them or not.

When I've watched Chris Rock it's been on TV as a guest on a talk show etc. His comedy and language is cleaned up quite a bit. I wouldn't pay to see his show. Well, I never go comedy shows but if I did that would not be my choice. Way too over that line. 
Do I think sometimes people are too sensitive? Yes but I will respect their opinion, culture, feelings and not go there.


----------



## ray188

From oldman - Using those teachings, I hardly believe my Dad would approve of me calling my black friends N_____s, or my white friends Crackers. "Hey, Cracker, how are you feeling today?" 

That is part of the problem that arises. Blacks will use both terms (comedians for example) openly and publicly and receive no criticism. How are we to promote the concept of "we're all the same regardless of skin color" when that is allowed?


----------



## applecruncher

ray188 said:


> From oldman - Using those teachings, I hardly believe my Dad would approve of me calling my black friends N_____s, or my white friends Crackers. "Hey, Cracker, how are you feeling today?"
> 
> That is part of the problem that arises. Blacks will use both terms (comedians for example) openly and publicly and receive no criticism. How are we to promote the concept of "we're all the same regardless of skin color" when that is allowed?



You are WRONG.  The fact is that not all blacks use the N Word and other ethnic slurs.  So some do, and they ARE criticized for it by a lot of people including other blacks.

Allowed?   What exactly do you expect me or any other black person to do about Chris Rock & rappers? Tell them to stop? Sue them? Smack them? They know some people object and they don't care.

Don't even try to blame Chris Rock & rappers for racism. I'm not buying it. Racism has been around a lot longer than they have.

The main problem is generalizations, such as you have made.


----------



## ray188

applecruncher said:


> You are WRONG.  The fact is that not all blacks use the N Word and other ethnic slurs.  So some do, and they ARE criticized for it by a lot of people including other blacks.
> 
> Allowed?   What exactly do you expect me or any other black person to do about Chris Rock & rappers? Tell them to stop? Sue them? Smack them? They know some people object and they don't care.
> 
> Don't even try to blame Chris Rock & rappers for racism. I'm not buying it. Racism has been around a lot longer than they have.
> 
> The main problem is generalizations, such as you have made.


Agreed - not all blacks use such terms and not all whites use such terms. My point was that it is not a "white problem". If it is a "problem", it is a universal problem.

As to entertainers - it isn't a matter of blaming, it is a matter of pointing out a degree of acceptance.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

I'm white. I also admit to have some racist feelings. Not that I'm wearing a white sheet, either. One problem I do have with Blacks is Black Culture. I don't live in the "hood". So, how am I supposed understand Black Culture? And if Blacks don't live in my neighborhood, how are they supposed to understand my White Culture? How do we get to our culture?


----------



## applecruncher

Gonna veer on to something a little different.

Years ago I got miffed when an Asian co-worker made a remark to the effect that all blacks go/are active in church.  He didn't say anything offensive.  It was just the generalization that bugged me.  He said that the blacks he knew went to church regularly.  Well, I don't and neither do most of the blacks I know. Later I was taken aside by a couple of black people....they told me to cut the guy some slack.  He wasn't being racist, and there's nothing wrong with what he said and certainly nothing wrong with going to church.  They were RIGHT, and I apologized to the guy.

There's a show on ABC called "The Middle".  The dad Mike supervises several men at a quarry. One is black, and during the course of a casual conversation the black guy mentions that he's invited Mike to visit his church, and he hadn't come.  So, the Heck family attends a service, and I really liked the episode.  In fact, when I was a child I spent a lot of time with an aunt who was very involved in church - one similar to the one in this episode.

Enjoy.


----------



## ray188

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm white. I also admit to have some racist feelings. Not that I'm wearing a white sheet, either. One problem I do have with Blacks is Black Culture. I don't live in the "hood". So, how am I supposed understand Black Culture? And if Blacks don't live in my neighborhood, how are they supposed to understand my White Culture? How do we get to our culture?


Alternate view - why do you have to know black culture. Not knowing it does not make you a bad person. On the other hand, if you truly have an inquiring mind and want to open it up to something new - go for it. Either way, it's not a "racial" thing - it is a "human" thing.

BTW - recognizing that there are different cultures and not being part of each and every culture is not "racist feelings".


----------



## fuzzybuddy

All ethnic groups lose some of their ethnic culture when they assimilate into the broader culture. The "hood" is eventually going to become a neighborhood. I'm not sure how much of Black Culture are Blacks  willing to lose. That is a tough thing to do.


----------



## JaniceM

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm white. I also admit to have some racist feelings. Not that I'm wearing a white sheet, either. One problem I do have with Blacks is Black Culture. I don't live in the "hood". So, how am I supposed understand Black Culture? And if Blacks don't live in my neighborhood, how are they supposed to understand my White Culture? How do we get to our culture?



There have been a few subjects I've planned to post in this thread, not had time, still extremely busy, so I apologize if this is unclear, blunt, etc., but one point I'd planned to make is addressed in this c/p from a Psychology Today article:
Culture. (Noun). The sum total of ways of living built up  by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to  another.
​Though the definition doesn't elaborate, "the sum total of ways" is  usually presumed to include language, food, dress, music, and holiday  celebrations, as well as less clearly defined concepts such as values,  shared points of reference, and norms regarding how we interact and  relate to each other._
---------------------



_
With all that in mind, perhaps someone who believes 'Black culture,' 'White culture,' 'Asian culture,' etc. even exists may want to consider it from some examples:

1.  Thinking of two individuals I know-  one person is a multi-generation descendant of slaves (Africa), one is a second-generation American of Caribbean Island heritage.  They grew up in two different parts of the U.S., and are members of two different generations.  What 'Black culture' do they have in common?  

2.  Thinking of two other individuals I knew long ago, both "Asian"-  one person escaped Vietnam during the Communist takeover, when I met her she was 30 yrs old and had been in the U.S. only a few years;  the other was born in the U.S. to a Chinese-American doctor.  They too were members of two different generations, and lived on opposite coasts.  What is their 'Asian culture'?

3.  The concept of 'White culture' is even more mystifying-  considering how many countries around the globe are predominately white, what do they have in common with each other?  I'd venture to say "not much."  As random examples, a person whose parents or grandparents came from Russia has little 'culture' in common with a person whose parents or grandparents came from England.  

I don't mean to diss anyone or anyone's viewpoints, but in my opinion attaching the concept of 'culture' to a race or other inborn factor (ethnicity, etc.) is ridiculous.  I believe if 'culture' exists at all, it's based on where a person is from, where he/she grew up, the ways the person absorbed in his/her early environments, etc.-  and their race has virtually nothing to do with it.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

So explain racism?


----------



## JaniceM

fuzzybuddy said:


> So explain racism?



I believe racism (and other forms of bigotry) is a matter of individuals who feel they are better than, above, and/or superior to, individuals whom they perceive as 'different.'


----------



## tnthomas

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm white. I also admit to have some racist feelings. Not that I'm wearing a white sheet, either. One problem I do have with Blacks is Black Culture. I don't live in the "hood". So, how am I supposed understand Black Culture? And if Blacks don't live in my neighborhood, how are they supposed to understand my White Culture? How do we get to our culture?



Well it's not at all uncommon for whites to be unfamiliar with black culture, blacks are only about 12% of the population.  

Blacks are familiar with white culture, because it is all around them 24/7.

"How do whites get their culture?"   That is an interesting question.  I think culture kind of "evolves" in a given group of people.  Their thoughts, beliefs, fears, culinary habits, lifestyle(farming, industrial or..?) etc.


----------



## AprilT

JaniceM said:


> There have been a few subjects I've planned to post in this thread, not had time, still extremely busy, so I apologize if this is unclear, blunt, etc., but one point I'd planned to make is addressed in this c/p from a Psychology Today article:Culture. (Noun). The sum total of ways of living built up  by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to  another.
> ​Though the definition doesn't elaborate, "the sum total of ways" is  usually presumed to include language, food, dress, music, and holiday  celebrations, as well as less clearly defined concepts such as values,  shared points of reference, and norms regarding how we interact and  relate to each other._
> ---------------------
> 
> 
> 
> _
> With all that in mind, perhaps someone who believes 'Black culture,' 'White culture,' 'Asian culture,' etc. even exists may want to consider it from some examples:
> 
> 1.  Thinking of two individuals I know-  one person is a multi-generation descendant of slaves (Africa), one is a second-generation American of Caribbean Island heritage.  They grew up in two different parts of the U.S., and are members of two different generations.  What 'Black culture' do they have in common?
> 
> 2.  Thinking of two other individuals I knew long ago, both "Asian"-  one person escaped Vietnam during the Communist takeover, when I met her she was 30 yrs old and had been in the U.S. only a few years;  the other was born in the U.S. to a Chinese-American doctor.  They too were members of two different generations, and lived on opposite coasts.  What is their 'Asian culture'?
> 
> 3.  The concept of 'White culture' is even more mystifying-  considering how many countries around the globe are predominately white, what do they have in common with each other?  I'd venture to say "not much."  As random examples, a person whose parents or grandparents came from Russia has little 'culture' in common with a person whose parents or grandparents came from England.
> 
> I don't mean to diss anyone or anyone's viewpoints, but in my opinion attaching the concept of 'culture' to a race or other inborn factor (ethnicity, etc.) is ridiculous.  I believe if 'culture' exists at all, it's based on where a person is from, where he/she grew up, the ways the person absorbed in his/her early environments, etc.-  and their race has virtually nothing to do with it.



You sound very wise.   

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this Black culture = hood or hood = black culture is it?  I'm not sure I get that hood connection having not been born in nor raised in the hood, but, being black and loving my birth country's (America), culture and other cultures as well.  Do some people think the culture of black people is that of this place they consider the hood?  

The truth of the matter, many Black people are only rediscovering black culture since that was something that was taken away from them as slaves so exactly what one is referring to as black culture gets confusing when that question is asked sometimes.  We didn't all grow up in the same geographical areas with the same principals and beliefs just as I wouldn't think non-blacks would have.  I can appreciate one wanting to understand if they so wish and want the insight, to ask questions without preconceived notions about those they seek knowledge of.


----------



## applecruncher

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm white. I also admit to have some racist feelings. Not that I'm wearing a white sheet, either. One problem I do have with Blacks is Black Culture. *I don't live in the "hood".* So, how am I supposed understand Black Culture? And if Blacks don't live in my neighborhood, how are they supposed to understand my White Culture? How do we get to our culture?





Not understanding your reference to "the hood".

That would be like me saying "_I don't live in a trashy trailer park, so I don't know about "white culture". _ How does THAT sound, hmmmmmmmm?  :wink:


----------



## applecruncher

fuzzybuddy said:


> So explain racism?



Easy.

*Racism* is the belief in the superiority of one race over another, which often results in discrimination and prejudice towards people based on their race or ethnicity


----------



## hearlady

JaniceM said:


> There have been a few subjects I've planned to post in this thread, not had time, still extremely busy, so I apologize if this is unclear, blunt, etc., but one point I'd planned to make is addressed in this c/p from a Psychology Today article:Culture. (Noun). The sum total of ways of living built up  by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to  another.
> ​Though the definition doesn't elaborate, "the sum total of ways" is  usually presumed to include language, food, dress, music, and holiday  celebrations, as well as less clearly defined concepts such as values,  shared points of reference, and norms regarding how we interact and  relate to each other._
> ---------------------
> 
> 
> 
> _
> With all that in mind, perhaps someone who believes 'Black culture,' 'White culture,' 'Asian culture,' etc. even exists may want to consider it from some examples:
> 
> 1.  Thinking of two individuals I know-  one person is a multi-generation descendant of slaves (Africa), one is a second-generation American of Caribbean Island heritage.  They grew up in two different parts of the U.S., and are members of two different generations.  What 'Black culture' do they have in common?
> 
> 2.  Thinking of two other individuals I knew long ago, both "Asian"-  one person escaped Vietnam during the Communist takeover, when I met her she was 30 yrs old and had been in the U.S. only a few years;  the other was born in the U.S. to a Chinese-American doctor.  They too were members of two different generations, and lived on opposite coasts.  What is their 'Asian culture'?
> 
> 3.  The concept of 'White culture' is even more mystifying-  considering how many countries around the globe are predominately white, what do they have in common with each other?  I'd venture to say "not much."  As random examples, a person whose parents or grandparents came from Russia has little 'culture' in common with a person whose parents or grandparents came from England.
> 
> I don't mean to diss anyone or anyone's viewpoints, but in my opinion attaching the concept of 'culture' to a race or other inborn factor (ethnicity, etc.) is ridiculous.  I believe if 'culture' exists at all, it's based on where a person is from, where he/she grew up, the ways the person absorbed in his/her early environments, etc.-  and their race has virtually nothing to do with it.


Great post.


----------



## hearlady

applecruncher said:


> Not understanding your reference to "the hood".
> 
> That would be like me saying "_I don't live in a trashy trailer park, so I don't know about "white culture". _ How does THAT sound, hmmmmmmmm?  :wink:


You mean all blacks don't live in the hood?
Seriously, we know what some whites wrongly consider all black culture but what do blacks consider black culture?


----------



## hollydolly

hearlady said:


> Great post.




Same from me,  JaniceM ....most eminently profound and honest  post so far....


----------



## hearlady

hearlady said:


> You mean all blacks don't live in the hood?
> Seriously, we know what some whites wrongly consider all black culture but what do blacks consider black culture?


I guess I just answered my own question. It depends where you're from, your relatives, etc. Duh accepted.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

I'm not an advocate of racism. But abstract theoretical definitions don't solve racism. We, in the United State, have an American Culture. Those Aussies have their own culture. Japanese have, etc. etc., Since I'm an American, who was born in that nation, grew up, absorbed the environment, and beliefs of my White American Culture. I did not see a living Black person till I was 22. Since race doesn't have anything to do with my "culture", how did I even notice he was Black?


----------



## AprilT

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm not an advocate of racism. But abstract theoretical definitions don't solve racism. We, in the United State, have an American Culture. Those Aussies have their own culture. Japanese have, etc. etc., Since I'm an American, who was born in that nation, grew up, absorbed the environment, and beliefs of my White American Culture. I did not see a living Black person till I was 22. Since race doesn't have anything to do with my "culture", how did I even notice he was Black?



Can you please define American culture, because as far as I know it encompasses various ethnic groups overall.  And how you notice this he was a black person, only you can answer that question.  I know I and most people recognize and don't deny differences, we just often don't grapple with embracing people who in some way have differences in one way or another about them.  I know some people were taught as youngsters to be weary of differences, but as adults I'd think we would have learned to think with reason about seeing other people as just that, people and just speak to them that way.  Find a commonality if one wants to understand or don't is my motto.  

People will click or not click regardless of skin color; if we put obstacles in the way based on a person's ethnic make up, that's the individuals personal issues making them choose to alinate.


----------



## Warrigal

:lol: It is widely known that Aussies are almost entirely uncultured.

Jokes aside, I'm trying to think about how we can overcome racist thought and feelings within ourselves. I do think that everyone grows up in circumstances that teach us to fear or despise people of some other race or culture. In my case, from my mother's hatred of the Japanese based on her war time experiences, I developed a suspicion of people with Asian faces. I saw so few dark skinned people where I lived that I considered them to be exotic. I was shocked by my reaction when my younger sister was dating an Asian boy and later she confessed that she ended the relationship because she was similarly disturbed by his race.

I have learned to overcome these suspicions and fears and am rarely troubled by negative thoughts now. They have lost their power over me.

I hold to the principle that feelings are but temporary reactions that rise up and then subside unless we choose to reinforce them ourselves. I have learned that love is not a  feeling but a choice, a decision to behave in a positive way rather than a warm fuzzy feeling. Sometimes it is hard to love someone but we can choose to  do it if we but try. As in all things, practice eventually makes perfect. 

By the same reckoning, racism is not what we feel or think, but what we choose to do. Racism is also a choice. We can choose not to avoid people we fear, choose not to look down on people or to accept stereotypes as factual. Or we can live within an ethnic ghetto behind psychological barriers to protect ourselves from our own feelings. Both are choices but only the first will help us to grow up and leave our racist feelings behind us.


----------



## ray188

AprilT said:


> Can you please define American culture, because as far as I know it encompasses various ethnic groups overall.  And how you notice this he was a black person, only you can answer that question.  I know I and most people recognize and don't deny differences, we just often don't grapple with embracing people who in some way have differences in one way or another about them.  I know some people were taught as youngsters to be weary of differences, but as adults I'd think we would have learned to think with reason about seeing other people as just that, people and just speak to them that way.  Find a commonality if one wants to understand or don't is my motto.
> 
> People will click or not click regardless of skin color; if we put obstacles in the way based on a person's ethnic make up, that's the individuals personal issues making them choose to alinate.


You're right, our culture is a combination of cultures without dismissing any. For some reason, that has not worked with the black culture. Too many political and cultural leaders have looked on the black community as something apart and separate needing special treatment. This has led to that sense of alienation you referred to.


----------



## hearlady

That's political culture.


----------



## Gary O'

I'm just gonna put this here
Sumpm I just run across that I writ a few years ago for a thread somewhat like this one

(lotsa good thoughts here, BTW...makes me think...I do hate that)

anyway;

*The race card*

It’s the one most worn, most dog eared in the deck.
I think its safe now to discard it, all suits.
Hasn’t really been in play since the sixties.
‘Course, that’s my opine.

Prejudice?
Am I prejudiced?
Yes, yessir, I am.
Raised that way.
I’d like not to be.
Tried
Can’t
Oh, well

Thing is, you are too.

Heh, I spend a lotta my free time poking fun of folks.
All folks.
Fat ones
Skinny ones
Old ones
New ones
Colored ones...wait
No, you wait.
I’m pullin’ the prejudice card too.
Turns out we are all colored.
I tried to get a movement started
*Beige Lives Matter*
Didn’t take for some reason.
That’s OK, though.
Not gonna dedicate this short life to a cause like that anyway.
I’d rather just talk one on one with folks.

My lady thinks I’ve gone ‘round the bend sometimes, ‘cause I make so much fun of everything ‘everything’s a joke with you...everything’.
Cheap dates, her and me.
We could sit at a bench all afternoon in a shopping mall and poke fun of everbod that happens by.
She used to not want to hear what I was thinking, got disgusted with me, so I’d sit there, chortling to myself, until; ‘OK, what’s so funny’
Try it
Hilarious

No, everything is not a joke.

I wish folks’d stop making it one.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

applecruncher said:


> *Congratulations on Being a Good Person, But That Doesn’t Excuse Racism.
> 
> **1. Stop creating false equivalencies.*
> 
> _Saying “Black Lives Matter” does not mean that other lives do not. Standing in opposition to police brutality is not the same as hating all cops. Talking about racism is not the same as an indictment of a person’s character.
> 
> _
> *2. Stop making excuses.*
> 
> _We do not live in a “post-racial society.” Let me burst that bubble for you now. You may work, live and frequent places that have a little diversity, but if that is the case, there is a big world outside of your day-to-day life.
> 
> _
> *3. Stop checking out of the conversation.*
> 
> _Does talking about race make you uncomfortable? Living the realities of racial injustice is not exactly a walk in the park either. Everyone needs to be part of that conversation, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Yes, this includes you.
> _
> (full article)
> 
> http://educationpost.org/congratulations-on-being-a-good-person-but-that-doesnt-excuse-racism/



You have certainly started an extremely interesting thread here Applecruncher! Thank you! I'm going to share this particular post as well as the one headed Why White People Can't Face Up To Racism, if you don't mind. I'm in a group where racial issues often get glossed over so both these articles are so relevant. That this thread is so long and basically so civil and informative also speaks to the character of the members here.


----------



## AprilT

ray188 said:


> You're right, our culture is a combination of cultures without dismissing any. For some reason, that has not worked with the black culture. Too many political and cultural leaders have looked on the black community as something apart and separate needing special treatment. This has led to that sense of alienation you referred to.




Sigh, some people just don't get it and never will as I don't know what this black culture is you are referring to because obviously, I and so many others I no are a part of it as you and so many of your mindset are determined to believe represents all people of a particular skin pigment.  But that's OK, I live and enjoy a life among the vast open minded people in America who don't lock people under a blanket way of being nor thinking.  

I'm not here to change the minds of people who are set in their thoughts about people who are different in some way they see.  Some of us out here won't see the history that set forth certain events that result in why some things are as they are for people.  

Communities fighting for certain needs have nothing to do with culture.  People can keep changing the bar as to what separates and causes them to alienate themselves finding reason to want to nitpick, that's okay, we all must choose our path of destruction, negativity to give us reason for whatever warped thoughts we may have.   The black communities are easy targets to pick, I get it, but there are many communities who fight for their right to exist with the full rights of everyone else.  Italian-American, Irish-America, Asian-American and many other community leaders exist in this country, but, yes, the ones most easy to spot and separate will always be disdained by those who see race.  Ignorance of the reasons behind it all isn't an excuse to hold on to the feelings to keep pointing a finger at people acting as if all things are just and equal in the treatment of the people.  

Leaders in a community defending the rights of a people hasn't a thing to do with causing alienation that I know of.  Those mistreating people bare that responsibility, those denying the existence of a problem and continuing to stick their heads in the ground because they they can't face a problem are what keeps them from uniting for the greater good of all people.  Either you are all my people black white or other or you're not; it's up to the individual how they want to see it. If one wants to see black people as something else, that's that person's choice to keep harping on it and finding reasons to do so.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

About my meeting my first Black person.  Somehow, that meeting didn't seem like an ethereal level of conscience. I guess since he had Black features and skin, I assumed he was Black. You can't say, "our culture is a combination of cultures without dismissing any", and in the next sentence talk about how the Black Culture doesn't fit in. Textbook definitions aside, the predominant culture in the U.S. is White American Culture.( I believe there's articles online about that.) And there is a distinct Black Culture. We are not all loving brothers and sisters, dancing in the meadow to the same music. We have not come to the point that my essence of being recognized the essence of being in that first Black guy that I met. But the fact that my skin is white and his skin is black continues, with centuries of emotional baggage, to divide us. Smaller cultures assimilate into the larger culture. It's a question of if, and how much  the Black Culture is willing to cede, and if, and how much the White American Culture is willing to accept.


----------



## AprilT

fuzzybuddy said:


> About my meeting my first Black person.  Somehow, that meeting didn't seem like an ethereal level of conscience. I guess since he had Black features and skin, I assumed he was Black. You can't say, "our culture is a combination of cultures without dismissing any", and in the next sentence talk about how the Black Culture doesn't fit in. Textbook definitions aside, the predominant culture in the U.S. is White American Culture.( I believe there's articles online about that.) And there is a distinct Black Culture. We are not all loving brothers and sisters, dancing in the meadow to the same music. We have not come to the point that my essence of being recognized the essence of being in that first Black guy that I met. But the fact that my skin is white and his skin is black continues, with centuries of emotional baggage, to divide us. Smaller cultures assimilate into the larger culture.* It's a question of if, and how much  the Black Culture is willing to cede, and if, and how much the White American Culture is willing to accept*.




There you have it in a nutshell what one thinks and is at issue for any one individual.  Blacks should cede.  Should they kneel while their at it.  Hilariously sad.  

No one is talking of ignoring differences and holding tulips nor loving everyone, but, as long as we want to hold on to harbor particular feelings one will always think a certain way, call it prejudice, racist, it is what it is.  If embracing one feels there's a giving up of ones own individuality, that seems a very rigid way of being to me.  Sounds like much I hear on the political front these days spoken by the white nationalist about they won't take our culture away.  Sorry, if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm hearing ring loud and clear.  A protest of you won't tear away my countries white dominate culture.  

Emotional baggage, you mean slavery, well, that's not my fault, who doesn't have some kind of emotional baggage of some sort, religious baggage gender baggage of the neanderthal kind.  Should we take things back to the wild wild west is that another cultural miss.  Would it make things better if the north would have ceded to the south. Perhaps that is the big hurt many are feeling; I don't doubt it.  I can sympathize if we were being more honest about it, I'd like to see into the heart of the people and understand, but, not at sacrifice at turning the clock back as some appear to long for.


----------



## ray188

AprilT said:


> Sigh, some people just don't get it and never will as I don't know what this black culture is you are referring to because obviously, I and so many others I no are a part of it as you and so many of your mindset are determined to believe represents all people of a particular skin pigment.  But that's OK, I live and enjoy a life among the vast open minded people in America who don't lock people under a blanket way of being nor thinking.
> 
> I'm not here to change the minds of people who are set in their thoughts about people who are different in some way they see.  Some of us out here won't see the history that set forth certain events that result in why some things are as they are for people.
> 
> Communities fighting for certain needs have nothing to do with culture.  People can keep changing the bar as to what separates and causes them to alienate themselves finding reason to want to nitpick, that's okay, we all must choose our path of destruction, negativity to give us reason for whatever warped thoughts we may have.   The black communities are easy targets to pick, I get it, but there are many communities who fight for their right to exist with the full rights of everyone else.  Italian-American, Irish-America, Asian-American and many other community leaders exist in this country, but, yes, the ones most easy to spot and separate will always be disdained by those who see race.  Ignorance of the reasons behind it all isn't an excuse to hold on to the feelings to keep pointing a finger at people acting as if all things are just and equal in the treatment of the people.
> 
> Leaders in a community defending the rights of a people hasn't a thing to do with causing alienation that I know of.  Those mistreating people bare that responsibility, those denying the existence of a problem and continuing to stick their heads in the ground because they they can't face a problem are what keeps them from uniting for the greater good of all people.  Either you are all my people black white or other or you're not; it's up to the individual how they want to see it. If one wants to see black people as something else, that's that person's choice to keep harping on it and finding reasons to do so.


Sigh - the reference to the black culture was the same as the reference others made to other cultures. None is specifically about pigmentation. 

Leaders of a community basing their appeal on victimology does nothing for the people in that community except condemn them to permanent negativity and dependency.


----------



## AprilT

ray188 said:


> Sigh - the reference to the black culture was the same as the reference others made to other cultures. None is specifically about pigmentation.
> 
> Leaders of a community basing their appeal on victimology does nothing for the people in that community except condemn them to permanent negativity and dependency.



I can see you believe that and that's okay for you to do so.


----------



## JaniceM




----------



## JaniceM

If you can forgive or overlook the 'hippy-dippy' tone of the song, it does sum up where I've always been 'at' on the subject-  racism and other bigotry is flat-out nonsense, and has never made any sense to me.  I did not grow up with it, and with only one exception never encountered it til I was around 42 yrs old even though I'd lived on both coasts and different areas on both.  
The one exception:  when I was 16 (making it around 1973), a girl I'd become pen-pals with made a below-gutter-level remark about black guys who go out with white girls.  Connected, though, my mother had had a run-in with the girl's father-  although I have little good to say about my mother, her outspokenness when up against something wrong was refreshing, and even more so when looking back.  The guy was running down all races other than his own, started in on nationalities, etc., and she piped up with 'WHAT THE HELL'S THE MATTER WITH YOU, WEREN'T YOU RAISED TO KNOW ANYTHING?!"  
And that's where I stand:  I cannot for anything understand how or why any person would dislike, not want to live around, not want to associate with, etc. etc. fellow human beings simply because their race or national origin is 'different' from one's own.  But if, as I've read a few times, 'everyone' is like that, I'm wondering where all those 'everybodies' have been throughout my life, because it doesn't describe the people I knew in the past.


----------



## applecruncher

_"Oh, I'm not prejudiced or anything... It's just that black people have their own culture and I don't know anything about black culture and I don't know how to learn about black culture_" etc. etc. etc.  yada yada yada   :blah:

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> _"Oh, I'm not prejudiced or anything... It's just that black people have their own culture and I don't know anything about black culture and I don't know how to learn about black culture_" etc. etc. etc.  yada yada yada   :blah:
> 
> :beatdeadhorse:



Or another dopey one:  "I don't have anything against Black people-  I've even had one in my own home!"  
Kinda makes you want to smack somebody, doesn't it.


----------



## applecruncher

Another one:
_"We're not racist; we go to church.  We couldn't be Christians if we were prejudiced."

_  

Makes me want to vomit.


----------



## fuzzybuddy

Small cultures are assimilated into the larger culture. And to be assimilated into the larger culture they must give up some of their ethnicity. There is a person, who just happens to paint his face red. There is a tribe of 15, who paint their faces blue. The red person would like the protection and benefits of being with a larger group. But in order to join the Blue tribe he must paint his face blue, when they go hunting. Otherwise he can wear red paint He can choose to be alone with his face painted red all the time, or paint his face blue, when they go hunting and join the tribe.
Assimilation is a negotiation to be member of the larger group, and still a member of the smaller group. Neither group is "good" nor "bad".
To dismiss 300 years of slavery, the Civil War, Civil Rights legislation, and who owned who, as mere baggage and trivial. I'm sorry. I assumed you lived in the United States, and knew its  current history.
And as stated previously, I am not an advocate of racism


----------



## applecruncher

[h=1]White fragility is real: 4 questions white people should ask themselves during discussions about race[/h][h=2]Are you a “fragile” white person? Here’s how to tell—and what to do about it[/h]_White fragility is a phrase coined by author Dr. Robin DiAngelo, and is defined as “a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves.” According to DiAngelo, most white people “live in a social environment that insulates them from race-based stress,” due to their privilege as part of the cultural majority. In turn, says DiAngelo, whites are infrequently challenged and have less of a tolerance to race-based stress, causing them to be hostile, guilty, defensive, or fearful when confronted. This phenomenon is white fragility. In the end, white fragility ensures that conversations about race are derailed, and the status quo of white supremacy is upheld.

_(full article)
​https://www.salon.com/2016/07/18/wh...ask_themselves_during_discussions_about_race/


----------



## Warrigal

applecruncher said:


> Another one:
> _"We're not racist; we go to church.  We couldn't be Christians if we were prejudiced."
> 
> _
> 
> Makes me want to vomit.



Me too, but did anyone really say that with a straight face?
If someone did, then I cannot imagine them sitting in church during the general confession 
without some degree of awareness of their own failures in this area.


----------



## applecruncher

Warrigal said:


> Me too, but did anyone really say that with a straight face?
> If someone did, then I cannot imagine them sitting in church during the general confession
> without some degree of awareness of their own failures in this area.



Oh yes, I personally have heard people say those exact words.

And, there's an excellent movie about apartheid in South Africa "A Dry White Season" (1989). It shows white families walking out of a church and they are as racist as the day is long.


----------



## JaniceM

Warrigal said:


> Me too, but did anyone really say that with a straight face?
> If someone did, then I cannot imagine them sitting in church during the general confession
> without some degree of awareness of their own failures in this area.



Yes unfortunately there are individuals who believe racist viewpoints/attitudes and 'being a good christian' are compatible.
Long ago I even heard remarks similar to 'we're not racist, we go to church, we couldn't be christians if we were prejudiced' AND added 'but of course I wouldn't want my son or daughter to marry "one of them".'  
and that was long before I ever heard of something that's been going around awhile and seems to be increasing-  the 'The Bible Says' approach:
https://mycommentary.weebly.com/take-it-from-the-source--2.html
After I heard this the last time I went around the www and was stunned to see how many people actually believe that idiot judge's remarks came from 'the bible.'


----------



## Warrigal

applecruncher said:


> Oh yes, I personally have heard people say those exact words.
> 
> And, there's an excellent movie about apartheid in South Africa "A Dry White Season" (1989). It shows white families walking out of a church and they are as racist as the day is long.



Amazing. My Sunday school lesson yesterday was on the subject of hypocrisy. I can only surmise that some people who are able to quote chapter and verse from the Scriptures have totally failed to hear the message within them.

I am aware that apartheid had its roots in the experience of the Voortrekker Boers who won a battle with Zulus at Blood River in 1838. They considered the victory a sign that God was on their side and was giving them the land.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Blood-River

That was in 1838. 
There is no excuse in this day and age for such thinking. 
The New Testament and the teaching of Jesus makes it very clear that such thinking a worse sin than venality.


----------



## JaniceM

Warrigal said:


> Amazing. My Sunday school lesson yesterday was on the subject of hypocrisy. I can only surmise that some people who are able to quote chapter and verse from the Scriptures have totally failed to hear the message within them.
> 
> I am aware that apartheid had its roots in the experience of the Voortrekker Boers who won a battle with Zulus at Blood River in 1838. They considered the victory a sign that God was on their side and was giving them the land.
> 
> https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Blood-River
> 
> That was in 1838.
> There is no excuse in this day and age for such thinking.
> The New Testament and the teaching of Jesus makes it very clear that such thinking a worse sin than venality.



Well, some doozies I've encountered-  and always did some checking just to make sure it wasn't simply the belief of any one individual-  Fundamentalists who called themselves Christians:
1.  Believe it was actually Jesus Christ who created the world.  
2.  and with that in mind, the belief that they have the God-given (or Christ-given) right and authority to take over the world (a different take on the quote, I think in Genesis, about man having dominion over everything-  but not 'all' man/mankind, only themselves as they believe only they are 'true christians').
3.  When presented with the logical question of how they can engage in proof-texting, as the Bible was written over many centuries, by various people, AND in a variety of languages, the response was that the Holy Spirit TELLS them how to 'interpret' Scripture.  (Kinda put me in mind of Charles Manson & "Helter Skelter.")  

I couldn't get an answer, though, to the question:  if Jesus Christ created the world, how is this belief compatible with the NT descriptions of Jesus's birth.


----------



## applecruncher

No offense JaniceM (you've contributed lots of insightful posts) but I don't want to invite a bunch of nuts who use the Bible and Jesus and a religious debate to justify their racist thoughts and behavior.

Anyone coming in here tossing Bible verses around will feel my size 9 shoe and get promptly sent to the ignore pit.


----------



## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> No offense JaniceM (you've contributed lots of insightful posts) but I don't want to invite a bunch of nuts who use the Bible and Jesus and a religious debate to justify their racist thoughts and behavior.
> 
> Anyone coming in here tossing Bible verses will feel my size 9 shoe and get promptly sent to the ignore pit.



Sorry, didn't intend it that way, just meant to show an additional reason prejudicial attitudes are worsening.


----------



## Warrigal

Strange that they had no answer. I would have expected them to quote from John Ch 1 which begins with the words



> 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[SUP][a][/SUP] it.



It is generally considered to refer to Jesus who is given the title "Living Word of God". Fundamentalists don't like this title because they hold that it is the bible that is the "inerrant, infallible word of God" to justify their literal approach to scripture. Of course Jesus has been given many titles including Lamb of God, Bread of Life and  Living Water. None of this justifies the thinking that any particular group is especially favoured by God, more righteous or the only holders of truth.

IMO, biblical fundamentalists tend to gloss over the NT but use every archaic verse in the OT to justify their narrow thinking, including racism and judgmentalism.


----------



## applecruncher

Yeah, I know.


----------



## Warrigal

applecruncher said:


> No offense JaniceM (you've contributed lots of insightful posts) but I don't want to invite a bunch of nuts who use the Bible and Jesus and a religious debate to justify their racist thoughts and behavior.
> 
> Anyone coming in here tossing Bible verses around will feel my size 9 shoe and get promptly sent to the ignore pit.



Sorry AC. 
 I hope my posts haven't offended you in any way.
I will now exit stage left.


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## applecruncher

Warrigal, no problem. 
Please continue to participate here. Your input is appreciated.


----------



## applecruncher

*Crabs in a barrel*

*A syndrome where a group of like situated people hurt those in their community attempting to get ahead.

Often this is applied to people in an impoverished community where one person is starting to get ahead. The collective community becomes jealous or filled with a sense of self-loathing, so they find a way to pull that person back down to the community's level.

*_*When harvesting crab, the crab as a group will pull down any crab that starts to climb out of the barrel in an attempt to be the first out of the barrel that holds them in, hence crabs-in-a-barrel.*

_This is something that happens within a black group of people that's not talked about much.  It often happens in junior high or high school. The crabs (male and _especially _female) are bullies and often successful at intimidating a weaker youngster who:

- is a good student, gets good grades
- is attractive, wears nice clothes
- has a stable family life
- is often popular and well liked, often has several white friends

It's a special form of jealousy.  The crabs resent their miserable lives.  Instead of trying to be nice, study harder, and eventually improve their lives they focus on trying to hold someone else back.


----------



## Warrigal

In  Australia we call it the tall poppy syndrome.

An example I remember well was when a junior high school girl was called out at a before school assembly. She had just qualified to play in a state level sporting team. As she was walking forward for a well earned pat on the back I heard some girls calling her "poser" sotto voce as she passed them. Jealous witches!


----------



## ray188

It is interesting to see a post regarding looking in rather than out when dealing with problems as in the "crab" story. Here is something along the same lines. Not that problems do not come from outside, some do - but not all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faolY5_hnIc


----------



## applecruncher

ray188 said:


> It is interesting to see a post regarding looking in rather than out when dealing with problems as in the "crab" story. Here is something along the same lines. Not that problems do not come from outside, some do - but not all.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faolY5_hnIc



I found #2 "Proliferation of Baby Mommas" to be VERY interesting.
I'm in bed on my phone and not at my computer right now so I can't type much, but I agree - Moynihan was RIGHT and he was villified by so-called black "leaders".


----------



## hearlady

ray188 said:


> It is interesting to see a post regarding looking in rather than out when dealing with problems as in the "crab" story. Here is something along the same lines. Not that problems do not come from outside, some do - but not all.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faolY5_hnIc


Quite a bit to think about, Ray.


----------



## Knight

This thread began with questions and I admit I haven't read all the responses. I have a few questions for the op's 
 opinion and hopefully some input about whatever the opinion might be.


Are race relation improved or deminished by separating races via these


Black congressional congress.
Black entertainment T V
Black Miss America Contest 
Black African Americans


The last one "Black African Americans" IMO is really a direct separation. Why the distinction since many identifying themselves that way were born in America.


----------



## applecruncher

*@ Knight

*(imo), race relations are not improved by the separations you list.


----------



## applecruncher

Getting back to the video posted by ray188........I don't agree with everything that was said, but I do agree with most of it.

Proliferation of baby mommas:

*Since 1970, out-of-wedlock birth rates have soared. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants and 3.1 percent of white infants were born to single mothers. By 1990 the rates had risen to 64 percent for black infants, 18 percent for whites. Every year about one million more children are born into fatherless families. If we have learned any policy lesson well over the past 25 years, it is that for children living in single-parent homes, the odds of living in poverty are great. The policy implications of the increase in out-of-wedlock births are staggering

*https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/

Today, 72% of black births are in single parent homes.  *This is an outrage.  *

What's also outrageous is that while the fathers/baby daddies are blamed, the mothers/baby mommas usually receive support and compassion within the black community.  And, they all too often keep having more babies.

The black nuclear family with 2 parents -(one or both working) is an exception, not the norm.  Since the 1960s it has gotten progressively worse.

Shameful. Yet there doesn't seem to be much shame.  It just keeps happening, over and over.


----------



## Knight

applecruncher said:


> *Crabs in a barrel*
> 
> *A syndrome where a group of like situated people hurt those in their community attempting to get ahead.
> 
> Often this is applied to people in an impoverished community where one person is starting to get ahead. The collective community becomes jealous or filled with a sense of self-loathing, so they find a way to pull that person back down to the community's level.
> 
> *_*When harvesting crab, the crab as a groupwill pull down any crab that starts to climb out of the barrel in an attempt to be the first out of the barrel that holds them in, hence crabs-in-a-barrel.*
> 
> _This is something that happens within a black group of people that's not talked about much.  It often happens in junior high or high school. The crabs (male and _especially _female) are bullies and often successful at intimidating a weaker youngster who:
> 
> - is a good student, gets good grades
> - is attractive, wears nice clothes
> - has a stable family life
> - is often popular and well liked, often has several white friends
> 
> It's a special form of jealousy.  The crabs resent their miserable lives.  Instead of trying to be nice, study harder, and eventually improve their lives they focus on trying to hold someone else back.



Do you think "crabs in a barrel" will ever be presented in Black Lives Matter media releases. What better way to begin the process of not viewing oneself as always the victim of white society? Promoting the accomplishments of those that didn't fall prey to being the crab in the barrel could be a start. Focusing on the positive instead of the negative might help to change the ongoing division in America.


----------



## applecruncher

*@ Knight*

To be honest, I don't pay much attention/give much thought to BLM, so I can't speculate.  I think too many people misinterpret the phrase and get all riled up about it.

However, people who don't fall prey to crabs in a barrel should be proud.


----------



## applecruncher

Hey, everybody!    Did ya think I forgot about this thread?  Nah.

Back when I was talking about interracial relationships, I meant to tell this story ..... too late to insert it so I'll tell it now.  It's also a good example of 'crabs in a barrel'.

1966........a black girl named Esther was a friend of mine.  (I was not happy that she was also a friend of the trouble-making clique, but more about that later.)  Esther was kinda goofy/ditzy, not a very good student, but she was VERY attractive.  Cute face, dynamite figure, and dressed to the nines in clothes from the most expensive women's clothing store in town.  Her father owned/operated a successful janitorial service that had contract with many of the businesses in town - banks, medical buildings, etc. They lived in a beautiful home.

Esther told me she really liked a white boy named Bill who was in several of my classes. He was a good-looking guy - popular, friendly, and Bill and I had a good relationship.  Esther had seen me chatting with him.  So she decided to write him a note and slipped it into his locker.  She told several people about her plan (she wanted to date him), and we waited to see if he would reply or what was gonna happen. I suspect the trouble-makers (crabs) were jealous of Esther. 

Well, Bill replied.  I didn't actually see the reply, but I recall that Esther was crying.  Apparently Bill told her he thought she was super-attractive, but that he felt he choice of close friends (she hung out with the trouble-makers) left a lot to be desired. When she was with the crabs, she became like them - loud, obnoxious, mean, instigating fights, often in detention or principal's office. He said that was the ONLY reason that he didn't want to pursue a relationship with her.

Instead of distancing herself from the crabs, she went to them and cried on their shoulder.  Of course, they told her he was prejudiced.  Go figure. :shrug:


----------



## applecruncher

Earlier I talked about how racism is so easy to hide.  More about that.

I'm not, nor have I ever been someone who goes thru life blaming white people for all my problems.  And I don't think all white people are racists. But I've been in situations where for a long time I didn't think my skin color was an issue/problem, then BAM! something happens or something is said to show that I'm wrong.  (One example was the manager of the store where I worked when I was a teenager...I told that story already.)

OR.......a white person will forget (or ignore) that I'm there and say something that will reveal their true feelings.   OR they will feign innocence and pretend they saw nothing wrong with what they did/said.  OR they truly see nothing wrong with their feelings/statements.

Back in the late 1980s - early 1990s I lived in an apartment complex that had a laundry room  in a different building.  Sometimes if all the machines were being used, I'd put my basket in the car and drive to a small laundromat nearby.  The owner of this laundromat knew me by sight, and we sometimes chatted. One evening I was standing near the dryers waiting for my things to finish drying.  I could kinda hear the owner talking to one of the patrons, but I wasn't paying attention to the substance of their conversation.  Suddenly I heard him say "As far as I'm concerned all the n*ggers can get on a plane and go live in South Africa. See how they like THAT."  Then I heard laughing.  (btw at the time apartheid was alive and well in South Africa.)

Did I confront him?  No.  I just folded my towels, and as I walked out he said "Have a good evening."  Yeah.


----------



## Sunny

This is a long thread which I haven't seen before, and don't have the time to read through all the discussions, though I'm sure they are very interesting!  So, I apologize if this has been addressed already.

Has the subject of reverse racism ever come up?  My retirement community is a mixed bag racially, with many racial, ethnic, and religious groups living together. Partly this is due to this being a very cosmopolitan area, and our demographic reflects the general population.

I haven't seen or heard any overt racism from anyone. Most of the white people are very careful in, for instance, describing how someone looks, and they sort of tiptoe around discussing what race anyone is. If it does come up, most white people will say something like, "She's a very nice African American lady," because some years back, the word "black" became offensive.

But I've noticed at pretty much all the group events (parties, concerts, lectures, etc.) that people seem to stick together with "their own."  This seems to be particularly true of all the minority groups. Look at a theatre audience: Asians are always sitting next to Asians, blacks with other blacks, etc.  I wonder if this is a kind of reverse racism, or if people just feel safer and more comfortable with their own group, particularly if they are a minority.

Once, my building had a party where I noticed a group of black women sitting together in a corner of the room. I knew some of them, so I went over to chat with them. They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They wanted to sit with each other, period.

Maybe all the years of racism have prompted this, as a defense mechanism? In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.


----------



## retiredtraveler

> ...... _didn't actually see the reply, but I recall that Esther was crying.   Apparently Bill told her he thought she was super-attractive, but that  he felt he choice of close friends (she hung out with the  trouble-makers) left a lot to be desired. When she was with the crabs,  she became like them - loud, obnoxious, mean, instigating fights, often  in detention or principal's office. He said that was the ONLY reason  that he didn't want to pursue a relationship with her.  Instead of distancing herself from the crabs, she went to them and cried  on their shoulder.  Of course, they told her he was prejudiced. _



I like this story because it's universal. Applies to any group --- religious, ethnic, racial. Bill was smart --- wasn't going for the looks alone which a lot of guys do, imho.  I've heard a few tales that were similar, over the years.



> ........_They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but  after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They  wanted to sit with each other, period._



Also, a universal tale.


----------



## applecruncher

Sunny said:


> This is a long thread which I haven't seen before, and don't have the time to read through all the discussions, though I'm sure they are very interesting!  So, I apologize if this has been addressed already.
> 
> Has the subject of reverse racism ever come up?  My retirement community is a mixed bag racially, with many racial, ethnic, and religious groups living together. Partly this is due to this being a very cosmopolitan area, and our demographic reflects the general population.
> 
> I haven't seen or heard any overt racism from anyone. Most of the white people are very careful in, for instance, describing how someone looks, and they sort of tiptoe around discussing what race anyone is. If it does come up, most white people will say something like, "She's a very nice African American lady," because some years back, the word "black" became offensive.
> 
> But I've noticed at pretty much all the group events (parties, concerts, lectures, etc.) that people seem to stick together with "their own."  This seems to be particularly true of all the minority groups. Look at a theatre audience: Asians are always sitting next to Asians, blacks with other blacks, etc.  I wonder if this is a kind of reverse racism, or if people just feel safer and more comfortable with their own group, particularly if they are a minority.
> 
> Once, my building had a party where I noticed a group of black women sitting together in a corner of the room. I knew some of them, so I went over to chat with them. They were very friendly and cordial, and we had a pleasant chat, but after I left that corner of the room, there was still no mingling. They wanted to sit with each other, period.
> 
> Maybe all the years of racism have prompted this, as a defense mechanism? In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.



Hi Sunny,

This thread was very active for several weeks last October/November, and yes it is long (and will continue to be.....there's a lot to be said.) You're very active on this forum on a regular basis, so I'm surprised you haven't seen this thread.

I appreciate your comments/questions, and I want to address them.

First of all, the term black is not offensive - never has been. Not all black/people of color came from Africa.  While I know some prefer the term African American, I don't and neither do any black people I know or am related to.  

Racism is simply considering one's race/ethnicity to be superior to another.  People of the same race sitting together at a movie, restaurant, sports event, etc, is not reverse racism (or reverse discrimination).  Obviously the women you referenced who sat together at the party knew each other, were enjoying each other's company, and having a nice time.  How is that reverse racism?  Just because they were black and sitting together doesn't mean they were denying the rights of white people or that they were hostile to white people.

I've seen situations where blacks or Hispanics or Asians cluster together. Sometimes it was in work environments, sometimes social events. I've mingled and socialized with and been close friends with a lot of white people throughout my lifetime, and it wasn't to show that I'm not racist.

From Wikipedia:
_*"The concept of reverse racism* *or **reverse discrimination has been used, especially in the United States, to describe the perceived denial of rights and privileges to members of dominant groups in order to benefit **racial and ethnic minorities*​*.
 The term has also been used to characterize various expressions of hostility or indifference toward ​white people by members of minority groups. "


*_


> In my experience, my black neighbors are some of the nicest people living here, and I would love to spend more time with them. But short of my joining the African-American club and going to meetings, I don't think it's gonna happen.​



No, you don't need to join the AA club and go to meetings (if such an organization exists, and I suspect it does not). But when you see someone who you'd like to get to know better/spend time with you can invite them for coffee, lunch, etc. regardless of what race they are. Would that be so hard? I wouldn't think it would be since the black people living there are so nice.


----------



## ray188

Bottom line seems to be that we can, in fact, be different, enjoy our particular culture and not be a bad person.


----------



## C'est Moi

The fact is, most people are just more comfortable with those they perceive are "like them."   The older I get, the less inclined I am to mingle with strangers no matter what color they are.

We are all different in many ways and yet we are the same.   In my circle of friends and close to my heart are a gay man, people of different races, and a wheelchair-bound woman who had polio as a child and is as feisty as a terrier.   They are ALL my friends; I love them no matter what our differences.   

My daughter dated a black man for a time and I absolutely adored him; I was so disappointed when they broke off their relationship.   He wasn't "black" to us; he was Derek.  (Daughter married a charming Hispanic guy instead, and we acquired two beautiful step-granddaughters.)  

I know about reverse discrimination having had my own experience with it as a young woman.   It didn't scar me or cause me to riot in the streets, but I still remember how it felt.


----------



## applecruncher

> cause me to riot in the streets,​



Funny.  :laugh:

Okay, so some might think "AC you've pointed out what_ isn't _reverse discrimination.  How about an example is what it IS?"

I got this from googling:

"_Examples of *"reverse discrimination*__" may include: Making hiring or promoting decisions in favor of minority groups, despite the experience or seniority of Caucasian, male, or other majority applicants. Hiring or promoting women solely on the basis of their gender over equally or more qualified males_."

Or, if I owned an apt bldg. or house that I wanted to rent.  I have 2 applicants.
One black who has adequate income, references, so-so credit.
One white who has better income and references, and excellent credit.

I choose the black person solely because the person is black. That's reverse discrimination.

One of the most famous reverse discrimination cases was in 1978, the Allan Bakke case.​
_Regents of UCLA v Bakke was a landmark decisionby the Supreme Court of the United States. It upheld affirmative action , allowing race to be one of several factors in college admission policy
. However, the court ruled that specific racial quotas , such as the 16 out of 100 seats set aside for minority students by the University of California, Davis School of Medicine​__, were impermissible.__
_​_
​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_Univ._of_Cal._v._Bakke_​


----------



## Sunny

Thanks, Applecruncher, for clarifying that thing about blacks vs. African Americans. It reminded me of an answer I once got from an American Indian friend when I asked if she preferred "Indian" or "Native American."  She said very definitely, "Indian!  We've been called that for centuries, everybody is used to it, and it isn't the slightest bit offensive."

About your comment:


> But when you see someone who you'd like to get to know better/spend time with you can invite them for coffee, lunch, etc. regardless of what race they are. Would that be so hard? I wouldn't think it would be since the black people are so nice?​



Why do you assume that hasn't happened?  Actually, I have had black friends over, along with everybody else, the last few times I entertained.

But I have to wonder, what would your reaction be if there was a party or something given by the local African American club (that's what they call it here), and a small group of white people attended, and sat huddled together in a corner for the whole evening, without making the slightest effort to mingle?


----------



## OneEyedDiva

applecruncher said:


> *@Cap'nSacto*
> 
> You asked me a question earlier today, and I said I needed to think about it.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> http://www.wedonteatanimals.com/blog/5-things-everyone-can-do-heal-americas-racism
> 
> *5 THINGS EVERYONE CAN DO TO HEAL AMERICA'S RACISM*
> 
> *1. ACKNOWLEDGE THE GAP
> *Admit, at least to yourself, that you probably don't know too much about the experience of people of color—unless you have, over great lengths of time, repeatedly put yourself in environments where you are the racial minority, away from the watchful eye of white society. Admission is the first step to recovery.
> 
> *2. READ & WATCH*
> Educate yourself on African American history. If you don't _intentionally_ seek out the history of _all_ peoples of color, in fact, you can not possibly know American history at all, nor the real context and implications of race today. To get you started, these are just a _few_ of my most beloved, mind-blowing, life-changing resources that cover a great span of time.
> • The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du Bois
> • Race Rebels: Culture Politics, and the Black Working Class by Robin D.G. Kelley
> • Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass; Narrative of Sojourner Truth; The Light of Truth: Writings of an Anti-Lynching Crusader: Ida B. Wells
> • Watch documentation of anti-racism activist Jane Elliot's "Blue-Eyed Brown-Eyed" workshops—they are some of the most powerful demonstrations of the insidious nature of racism on both the "superior" and oppressed sides. See what happens when she discriminates against a group of people based on eye color, lowers her expectations of them, and breaks their confidence as they live down to those expectations:
> • How Racist Are You? Part I (11 min)
> • The Angry Eye (51 min)
> Purchase the "Blue-Eyed" documentary on Jane Elliot for diversity training purposes here.
> 
> *3. INTEGRATE*
> Because of the intersections of race and class, our schools have become largely segregated once again. We have to integrate ourselves if we want our generation and the next to be brothers and sisters. If you or your kids have extracurriculars, hobbies, or after school activities, for example, try doing them in a neighborhood you wouldn't normally venture to—not once or twice like you're on some exoticized safari, but for extended periods of time—to build relationships, friendships, networks, and communities. If this sounds scary to you, the problem of racism and its effect on your life should be appearing clearer. See #1 again.
> 
> *4. STOP SUGAR-COATING*
> Stop telling kids that "everyone is equal" and start explaining America's history of inequality, what's going on in the news, and—outrightly and clearly—why racism is sick and wrong. Teach your kids to identify and stand in solidarity with just causes, collectives, ideas, and people.
> 
> *5. CHOOSE YOUR ACTIVISM THOUGHTFULLY*
> Don't toss around trendy hashtags nor assume you know what any community needs or wants, or what is good for them. Some of the most useless activism I've seen happens when outsiders come into a neighborhood and start offering services that have nothing to do with the real needs of the community. Listen, read, and find out what the many different voices in the community are saying, and _only then_ become a soldier for what you find fair and just.
> 
> 
> (I especially like #4.  It's not enough to say "people need to treat each other with respect"....THAT goes without saying.  Those are just words, not a solution.  I could add more to the above list, but maybe later)
> 
> Also, my personal list of books recommended for reading:
> 
> _The Autobiography of Malcolm X - by Alex Haley
> The Algiers Motel Incident - by John Hershey
> Night - by Elie Wiesel (about life in Nazi concentration camp)
> Kaffir Boy - by Mark Mathabane  (growing up in apartheid South Africa)_


EXCELLENT reply AC. I've copied it because I'd like to post it in another forum where some people justify or minimize the impact of racism in their own little ways. You started quite a thread here!


----------



## applecruncher

Sunny said:


> Thanks, Applecruncher, for clarifying that thing about blacks vs. African Americans. It reminded me of an answer I once got from an American Indian friend when I asked if she preferred "Indian" or "Native American."  She said very definitely, "Indian!  We've been called that for centuries, everybody is used to it, and it isn't the slightest bit offensive."
> 
> About your comment:
> 
> 
> *Why do you assume that hasn't happened?  Actually, I have had black friends over, along with everybody else, the last few times I entertained.
> *
> *But I have to wonder, what would your reaction be if there was a party or something given by the local African American club (that's what they call it here), and a small group of white people attended, and sat huddled together in a corner for the whole evening, without making the slightest effort to mingle?*



Sunny,

My assumption was based on the last paragraph of ypur previous post #333.  You said you'd like to get to know your black neighbors better, but it wasn't going to happen. 

So, there really is an African American club.  Wow.  I don't like the idea of that, and I would not want to join or even attend a meeting.  Leaves a bad taste in my mouth - just like the Caucasian Club or White People's Club would.

Regarding the hypothetical situation you presented, to be honest, white people sitting together at a function and not mingling with black people .....well, I doubt I'd give it any thought.  I'd be more focused on the activities going on. If a group of whites attended an event where everyone else is black, I'd assume they had a reason and that they wanted to be there.

So, I answered your hypothetical.  But in reality I would not be at a party given by the African American club.


----------



## rgp

What I do not understand about all of this ...is this. Why do we even discuss / debate it ?

If I were to walk into a social gathering, and I knew no one. But, I spotted a table of lets say....black academic looking guys sitting there sipping white wine & discussing next years school curriculum . Another table of white guys gen-X age discussing next years football teams, drinking beer. Another table of millennials sitting there sipping what ever, And yet another table of old,fat, grumpy looking white  guys drinking ?? and discussing motorcycles and their travels of the past...........

That last table is where I am going to go sit down......those guys are my 'peeps'   [as the kids say] And there is not one damn thing wrong with choosing to be with , among, those that we relate to. IMO it is actually just human nature. 

Even if the only difference was that there were only two tables...one with white folks, and one with black folks.....I'm going to sit down with the white folks. Again...not one damn thing wrong there either. Now....if I say to my fellow white guys at the table....let's get all the pretzels for us, so those black folks do not get any......then I would be wrong.


----------



## Sunny

AC, you might feel more kindly toward our African American club if you knew that absolutely every other identifiable group here has a club;  (All except white people; there is no "white club.")

We have clubs for Italian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Jewish residents, both major political parties, every kind of music and art lovers, people with various diseases and disabilities, even an
LGBT club. And probably a couple of dozen that I've omitted here.

There's also a club whose founder is black, featuring a different terrific jazz musician every month. So there's nothing insulting or exclusionary about an African-American club. They have dances, dinners, go on outings, etc.


----------



## applecruncher

Sunny,

How about this:

Back in the 90s I did some work for an atty who had a small successful firm.  He was a black man in his 70s.  One of the projects he needed help with was updating a membership list and sending event invitations for a club ...he was one of the officers. They also had a newsletter.

I forgot the name of the club, it was not identifiable by race. But we got to talking and he told me the criteria for membership:

-married couples only, and either husband or wife must be black (preferably both)
-either husband or wife had to be either an attorney or an M.D.
-adult children of members were automatic members _if they were established attorneys or MDs. _They had to appear before the board and answer questions.

The club had been established in the 1960s...they had dinners and dances twice a year at the best hotels......he showed me pictures.​


----------



## Sunny

Pretty ritzy club!  Were those criteria for membership "either" or "and"?  In other words,  one or both of the couple had to be an attorney or M.D., plus at least one being black,  or was just one of those criteria enough to get them in?


----------



## applecruncher

Sunny said:


> Pretty ritzy club!  Were those criteria for membership "either" or "and"?  In other words,  one or both of the couple had to be an attorney or M.D., plus at least one being black,  or was just one of those criteria enough to get them in?



Both - i.e., either husband or wife had to be an attorney or MD, AND either husband or wife had to be black.  This is a large city so they had quite a few members, although some members were from out of town. I'm surprised they didn't specify degrees from certain specific ivy league colleges.


----------



## Getyoung

I grew up in a almost completely "white" city in Canada. When I was a kid I think that I was "predjudiced" just by being totally surrounded by people that looked like me. As I grew up, through my love of cars, I had a good friend who was an asian guy, who was also a car nut, and by spending a lot of time with him and he becoming friends with my other friends, it was strange how he turned into one of us, and NOT the asian guy. Luckily, later, I worked for a large company that hired people of all color and was quite ahead of the times with gender and pay as well. As I worked with these people, and got to know them, again, they kind of turned into just people. 

When I became a manager at this corporation, I was shocked one day by a racial slur by one of my employees, I ended up firing this person, not just for the slur, but it was part of the package. As I get older, the less I understand why we have this wedge between different races. I sure wish we just got along a little better.


----------



## HiDesertHal

In my younger years, it was considered polite to call Black People "Colored People" or "Negroes", but never the hated "N" word.

Hal


----------



## OneEyedDiva

applecruncher said:


> Earlier I talked about how racism is so easy to hide.  More about that.
> 
> I'm not, nor have I ever been someone who goes thru life blaming white people for all my problems.  And I don't think all white people are racists. But I've been in situations where for a long time I didn't think my skin color was an issue/problem, then BAM! something happens or something is said to show that I'm wrong.  (One example was the manager of the store where I worked when I was a teenager...I told that story already.)
> 
> OR.......a white person will forget (or ignore) that I'm there and say something that will reveal their true feelings.   OR they will feign innocence and pretend they saw nothing wrong with what they did/said.  OR they truly see nothing wrong with their feelings/statements.
> 
> Back in the late 1980s - early 1990s I lived in an apartment complex that had a laundry room  in a different building.  Sometimes if all the machines were being used, I'd put my basket in the car and drive to a small laundromat nearby.  The owner of this laundromat knew me by sight, and we sometimes chatted. One evening I was standing near the dryers waiting for my things to finish drying.  I could kinda hear the owner talking to one of the patrons, but I wasn't paying attention to the substance of their conversation.  Suddenly I heard him say "As far as I'm concerned all the n*ggers can get on a plane and go live in South Africa. See how they like THAT."  Then I heard laughing.  (btw at the time apartheid was alive and well in South Africa.)
> 
> Did I confront him?  No.  I just folded my towels, and as I walked out he said "Have a good evening."  Yeah.



Even though the scenarios are different, your story reminds me of one a friend of my sister's good friend's husband told at dinner. I believe they are considered middle class, maybe even upper middle class. He had what he thought was a good, close relationship with his White co-workers. He never felt there was any problem or racism with them. Then he found out that they all went golfing together and he was never invited. At that point he really felt it was a racist thing. I don't know if it's because they are or if the golf course frowns on Blacks playing there. Anyway, he felt very bad about it.


----------



## Olivia

This may not fit this topic, but anyway when my dad, who is of Japanese heritage, was drafted during WWll, he was sent to Georgia and they had the recruits divided into two groups-Whites and Blacks (I'm not sure they used that term) and when it was done the group with my dad who were mainly of mixed race from Hawaii were still there standing in the middle. The sergeant yelled at them to get in the White group. My dad has always remembered that. Just so weird. Also, during that time, his mother gave the boys and the one girl American type names because of the worry about being not faithful to the U.S.


----------



## applecruncher

Olivia said:


> *This may not fit this topic*, but anyway when my dad, who is of Japanese heritage, was drafted during WWll, he was sent to Georgia and they had the recruits divided into two groups-Whites and Blacks (I'm not sure they used that term) and when it was done the group with my dad who were mainly of mixed race from Hawaii were still there standing in the middle. The sergeant yelled at them to get in the White group. My dad has always remembered that. Just so weird. Also, during that time, his mother gave the boys and the one girl American type names because of the worry about being not faithful to the U.S.



Your post definitely fits this topic - racism. I don't know why you wouldn't think that it fits.

I've said several times in this thread that this discussion is NOT just about racism in the USA, and it is NOT just about whites vs blacks.

I remember in 1979 I attended a 2-day seminar.  One of the facilitators was Jewish...suffice to say I knew she was but I don't think it matters how I knew.

Anyway, there was a written exercise and discussion going on ......about 25participants in the room.  I was the only black person.  One of the participants said "I work in a medical office for two doctors who are Jews. You know how THEY are, they want to get all they can out of you and pay you as little as possible."  WHAT??!!  mg1:

I saw some looks exchanged.  But the facilitator just continued and let her get away with the remark.

Of course, I've heard various anti-Semitic comments throughout the years.  But to make such a comment openly during a professional event and not know or care that some people might take offense....wow. Of course she had no problem accepting paychecks from those Jewish doctors. hmmmm

_shaking my head  _


----------



## Olivia

Yeah, you're right. I forgot about the earlier posts.


----------



## Big Horn

Olivia said:


> This may not fit this topic, but anyway when my dad, who is of Japanese heritage, was drafted during WWll, he was sent to Georgia and they had the recruits divided into two groups-Whites and Blacks (I'm not sure they used that term) and when it was done the group with my dad who were mainly of mixed race from Hawaii were still there standing in the middle. The sergeant yelled at them to get in the White group. My dad has always remembered that. Just so weird. Also, during that time, his mother gave the boys and the one girl American type names because of the worry about being not faithful to the U.S.


In _Our Southern Highlanders_, Horace Kephart mentions that at a sort of fair that was attended by Whites, Blacks, and Indians, the Whites and Indians ate together.  Blacks ate separately.  Kephart wrote this in the twenties about  what today is in or near Great Smoky Mountains National Park.


----------



## Traveler

HiDesertHal said:


> In my younger years, it was considered polite to call Black People "Colored People" or "Negroes", but never the hated "N" word.   Hal




Yes, my mother, who taught me to not be racist, called blacks "negroes" all of her life. And I can state positively that she was merely being polite.  
There are many forms of racism and not all are directed toward blacks.  Back 40-50 years ago, I was with a friend from the university and we were outside a Multnomah County building when he noticed a group of Asians exiting. He turned to me and said something about "all those gooks". That really upset me and I replied, "Which gooks are you referring to ? My ex-wife or my daughter"? With that, I turned and walked away. Our friendship had been irretrievably severed.


----------



## applecruncher

btw folks - take another look @ post #11 on the first page of this thread.  I was looking at the online obits lat week for the town where I went to high school.  I saw that "Dane" died last week at age 90; there was also a photo.  Of course, as I read I thought of my interaction with him.


----------



## fmdog44

Just because laws are written to address racism does nothing to end it. In all countries their is indifference between different tribes, sectors, religions, races and sexes. That is in our genes, our DNA. It will continue for many, many years to come. We can't guarantee perfection in death much less life.


----------



## applecruncher

@fmdog44
The only thing you've said that I disagree with is your statement that racism us in our genes/DNA.


----------



## Marie5656

applecruncher said:


> @fmdog44
> The only thing you've said that I disagree with is your statement that racism us in our genes/DNA.


*I agree, if "in our genes" means hereditary.  Both my parents were very prejudiced against blacks.  They tried to instill their racism into me.  It did not take.*


----------



## fuzzybuddy

Unfortunately, racism is in the DNA of the US. Our continued history of home grown racism continues unabated. And I'm not immune from my own deeply racist feelings.In a sense, we've never left the plantation. And racism is in no way a purely Southern phenomena, it is a national condition. But, changes have happened. Things have gotten some what better. I believe why we continue to be a racist bastion is that we don't realize that we are Americans. We identify with White, Black, Hispanic, etc. much more than as Americans. Unfortunately, we will have to await the yet unborn to embrace all our fellow Americans.


----------



## rgp

fuzzybuddy said:


> Unfortunately, racism is in the DNA of the US. Our continued history of home grown racism continues unabated. And I'm not immune from my own deeply racist feelings.In a sense, we've never left the plantation. And racism is in no way a purely Southern phenomena, it is a national condition. But, changes have happened. Things have gotten some what better. I believe why we continue to be a racist bastion is that we don't realize that we are Americans. We identify with White, Black, Hispanic, etc. much more than as Americans. Unfortunately, we will have to await the yet unborn to embrace all our fellow Americans.




 When just a kid...my dad used to say that in time...a long time off. All people will very likely be some form of light brown, tan....due to racial mixing, [marriage]. When that happens it will no longer matter to anyone, because there will be no difference to _see .

_There are those that reject _mixing _......I understand that, as I do as well. But it doesn't  matter what I think, it is happening, and will continue to happen.

In the meantime there is no _harm _in preferring your own, and keeping them as your social circle. The _harm_ comes from _harming_ those that are different.


----------



## applecruncher

fuzzybuddy said:


> Unfortunately,* racism is in the DNA of the US*. Our continued history of home grown racism continues unabated. And I'm not immune from my own deeply racist feelings.In a sense, we've never left the plantation. And racism is in no way a purely Southern phenomena, it is a national condition. But, changes have happened. Things have gotten some what better. I believe why we continue to be a racist bastion is that we don't realize that we are Americans. We identify with White, Black, Hispanic, etc. much more than as Americans. Unfortunately, we will have to await the yet unborn to embrace all our fellow Americans.



Seriously?

Aside from being just another convenient excuse, this is simply not true.  If it was, then everyone in the US would have been and still is racist.

(Look at what Marie 5656 said).  I've known families where some people are racially prejudiced and others are not...even to the point where they marry outside their race.  How do you explain THAT, fuzzy?  hmmm. Was there a glitch in the DNA???

Nobody said racism is a Southern condition.  Plantation? Racism is not about slavery and plantations. And no, racism is NOT national....it's global, as in worldwide.  _For the umpteenth time, this is not just about racism in the United States..._..(although I know some people have used that as an excuse to leave the discussion.)

No, society does not have to wait .....and wait...and wait.  You don't HAVE to "embrace" everyone of every race. You don't even have to like or respect other races.  But it might be easier for you to accept the FACT that no one race is superior to another. That's the way it has always been, the way it is, and the way it will always be.

btw, most people living in the US already know we/they are Americans, so that's not news.


----------



## fmdog44

applecruncher said:


> @fmdog44
> The only thing you've said that I disagree with is your statement that racism us in our genes/DNA.



To elaborate a little maybe "indifference" or "suspicion" could be a better term being in our DNA and of course not applicable to all of the human race. Examine the history of the human race and it's history of unspeakable cruelty toward one another and the number of days when there has been no wars is miniscule. I don't know why we are like we are and again I'm not including everyone, thankfully, we don't all think alike. Slavery exists today in parts of the world, so what is the mind set of a people to believe other people are inferior to them to justify the concept of certain peoples should be slaves? Then the history of genocide illustrates nations wiping out a people because they are not human. Man's history on this miracle planet is dark to say the least and it is as sad as it is vile.


----------



## Sunny

People have a tendency to expand their own attitudes and perceptions to include everyone. Saying that a trait is in our DNA is a very generalized statement, taking qualities that apply to some people and attributing them to all.

Recently, I was part of a discussion in which one woman got up and made an angry statement about how "everybody" in my community is prejudiced against those who are not like them. She claims that anyone who claims otherwise is being deliberately blind. Yet this woman is perpetually angry, clearly has problems getting along with other people, and sees the world through her own narrow prism. She does not want to see all the friendships across racial and religious lines, she sees her own perspective on the world.


----------



## applecruncher

Most people don't want to be blamed for wrongdoing and horrible behavior - even when they KNOW they are guilty. They don't want to accept responsibility and they don't want to change. This applies to something as repulsive as racism and to many other things in life.

_"It's not my fault"
"I can't help it"
"I didn't do it on purpose"
"I see nothing wrong with my behavior"
"It's the way I was brought up"
"Well, no one else has complained"_


----------



## JaniceM

Sunny said:


> People have a tendency to expand their own attitudes and perceptions to include everyone. Saying that a trait is in our DNA is a very generalized statement, taking qualities that apply to some people and attributing them to all.
> 
> Recently, I was part of a discussion in which one woman got up and made an angry statement about how "everybody" in my community is prejudiced against those who are not like them. She claims that anyone who claims otherwise is being deliberately blind. Yet this woman is perpetually angry, clearly has problems getting along with other people, and sees the world through her own narrow prism. She does not want to see all the friendships across racial and religious lines, she sees her own perspective on the world.



Hi Sunny,  I don't know you and am not familiar with your location, but have to pop in on your post-  specifically, the first part.  From what I've seen, it started with few in my age group when we were young and has expanded to become a virtual epidemic:  whenever anyone does wrong, they don't say 'I,' they say 'Everybody!'  So I shouldn't have been too surprised to read 'everybody' comments on this topic, too.  In most cases, I don't think it's simply expanding one's own attitudes as much as it's covering their own butz.  

Gotta admit, though, the DNA approach is new to me.  Before it becomes the latest excuse, folks should start watching some true crime shows on tv and learn what the word really means.  
Racism is _not _in a person's genes, it is not an inborn characteristic, it is _taught.  _​


----------



## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> Most people don't want to be blamed for wrongdoing and horrible behavior - even when they KNOW they are guilty. They don't want to accept responsibility and they don't want to change. This applies to something as repulsive as racism and to many other things in like.
> 
> _"It's not my fault"
> "I can't help it"
> "I didn't do it on purpose"
> "I see nothing wrong with my behavior"
> "It's the way I was brought up"
> "Well, no one else has complained"_



And it's only getting worse.  During the last couple of years I've even seen numerous accounts of individuals using the Bible to cover their wrongs-  'only you who is without sin may cast the first stone' etc.


----------



## JaniceM

rgp said:


> When just a kid...my dad used to say that in time...a long time off. All people will very likely be some form of light brown, tan....due to racial mixing, [marriage]. When that happens it will no longer matter to anyone, because there will be no difference to _see .
> 
> _There are those that reject _mixing _......I understand that, as I do as well. But it doesn't  matter what I think, it is happening, and will continue to happen.
> 
> In the meantime there is no _harm _in preferring your own, and keeping them as your social circle. The _harm_ comes from _harming_ those that are different.



If, by the one comment, you're referring to 'mixing races,' you'd definitely not like _my _​family-  engaging in interracial marriages for centuries.  And I'm dammm proud of it.


----------



## applecruncher

JaniceM said:


> Hi Sunny,  I don't know you and am not familiar with your location, but have to pop in on your post-  specifically, the first part.  From what I've seen, it started with few in my age group when we were young and has expanded to become a virtual epidemic:  whenever anyone does wrong, they don't say 'I,' they say 'Everybody!'  So I shouldn't have been too surprised to read 'everybody' comments on this topic, too.  In most cases, I don't think it's simply expanding one's own attitudes as much as it's covering their own butz.
> 
> *Gotta admit, though, the DNA approach is new to me.  Before it becomes the latest excuse, folks should start watching some true crime shows on tv and learn what the word really means.
> Racism is not in a person's genes, it is not an inborn characteristic, it is taught.  *​



Indeed. Racism is learned - but not always from parents/family...often from peers and friends in school, often at a very young age.

And Yes, before people start playing the DNA card they should learn what it means.


----------



## fmdog44

I was born and raised in a multi-ethnic town and went to all school levels with all races. I met a guy in the army that was from the mountains of Kentucky and he told me he had never so much as seen a black person and he relayed some stories he was told about blacks that I dare not repeat. He was a kind man that had also been sexually abused at his home. He was very skinny and frail and did not spend many years in school where he lived. I felt so sad for this guy as we were all being told Viet Nam was in our future and that could have been Mars to this guy as he seldom strayed from neighborhood in his life. This man despite his "beliefs" was the farthest thing from being a racists. All he knew is what was told to him. So I thought it best to clear him up on some facts. Thankfully neither of us went to Nam.


----------



## applecruncher

Many years ago (early 1970s) I worked with a man from Hungary. He and his family had emigrated to Canada then came to the USA.  He told me he never saw a black person until he came to the US, and he said he found it hard to stop staring because to him it was so unusual.


----------



## Sunny

> Racism is _not _in a person's genes, it is not an inborn characteristic, it is _taught.  _​



Just like the song in South Pacific:  You've Got to be Taught.


----------



## applecruncher

JaniceM said:


> And it's only getting worse.  During the last couple of years I've even seen numerous accounts of individuals *using the Bible to cover their wrongs-*  'only you who is without sin may cast the first stone' etc.



Don't even get me going ...again....  I talked about this way back in the thread.  Bible-thumpers love to spout scriptures and twist them to TRY to justify their behavior.

Puhleeze.


----------



## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> Don't even get me going ...again....  I talked about this way back in the thread.  Bible-thumpers love to spout scriptures and twist them to TRY to justify their behavior.
> 
> Puhleeze.



Well, as many racists claim to be Christians, there is one approach that might be useful:  as the Christian and Judaic belief is God created Adam and Eve, ask a Bible-thumping racist to _point out in the Bible _any passage that says God created multiple races.  Going by the Bible, A&E followed the commandment to be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth-  no 'other' races were ever created.


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## applecruncher

I have actually heard some of the most racist people I've encountered say the words "I'm not prejudiced; I go to church - I'm a Christian."

WHAT? mg1:  It's almost comical, but not quite.

I forget where I talked about it, but in the apartheid movie "A Dry White Season" (set in 1970s South Africa) there's a scene with well-dressed whites coming out of church saying things which boggle the mind.


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## JaniceM

applecruncher said:


> *I have actually heard some of the most racist people I've encountered say the words "I'm not prejudiced; I go to church - I'm a Christian."
> *
> WHAT? mg1:  It's almost comical, but not quite.
> 
> I forget where I talked about it, but in the apartheid movie "A Dry White Season" (set in 1970s South Africa) there's a scene with well-dressed whites coming out of church saying things which boggle the mind.



I could counter that statement with:  '_Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against White people, I've even had some of them in my own home.'  _layful:


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