# Terrorism in America.... just your neighbor going nuts



## Pete (Nov 7, 2017)

*

*​*….no quaint little personal story to start this one off, today I offer only a splash of mental ice water to wake up those still believing that it is the firearms that are the problem not the people behind them. Though not done in the name of religious terrorism like we witnessed in: San Bernardino (14 killed 22 wounded), Orlando (49 killed 58 wounded) or New York where 8 people were run over by a supporter of isis.... right here outside of Dallas Texas 26 people were killed while at Sunday church service and another 20 taken to the hospital. Yes just like the mad man in Las Vegas who killed 52 and injured 527 people both attackers had semi-automatic weapons but if you truly believe it is the fault of the firearm then maybe you should leave this country because there are millions more firearms in the hands of American citizens.*

*Having 26 people murdered while attending church service is truly saddening to hear*
*  but hearing our politicians once again call for new gun laws is also disturbing.
**
New gun laws would not have stopped the Las Vegas carnage*
*  because the gunman bought his guns legally!
**
New gun laws would not have stopped those senseless murders*
*  at a church here in Texas*
* because the gunman bought the guns legally!

*​*Now in the case of the gunman here in Texas he should never have been able to buy any guns because as the Air force says they made a mistake! In 2012, while he was in the U.S. Air Force, he was court-martialed for assaulting his then-wife and stepson. He served a year in confinement at a Naval facility in California after a plea bargain, and under federal law his conviction disqualified him from legally possessing a firearm, yet the Air Force never notified federal authorities.*
*So once again it is not a matter of needing new gun laws but the enforcement of the ones already on the books. However I do agree we need some form of law placing the names of people diagnosed with mental disorders on the 'no buy' list, but I can not believe that one doesn't exist already. I think it is more a matter of Psychiatrist's and mental health workers concerned they will be sued if they notified the federal authorities.
*
*…...even if you are staunchly anti-gun (please) consider this, in the gunman's vehicle were more weapons and ammunition and when he left that church he was on his way to kill more people because he had nothing to loose. If it wasn't for an armed citizen living across from the church, who pursued and shot the gunman, the death toll may have been much higher.
*
*You want to see an end to mass shootings*

*by disturbed individuals*

*then tell your representative before they enact more gun laws*

*you want un-balanced individuals*

*bared from owning firearms!*
​


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## Warrigal (Nov 7, 2017)

Are you prepared to allow law enforcement to actually confiscate guns from people who should not possess them?


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## chic (Nov 8, 2017)

We should all be armed maybe?


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## Sunny (Nov 8, 2017)

Pete, what if this guy and the one in Las Vegas had been holding a knife instead of an assault weapon?  How many more people would still be alive now?


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## Cap'nSacto (Nov 8, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Pete, what if this guy and the one in Las Vegas had been holding a knife instead of an assault weapon?  How many more people would still be alive now?



Then there would be no question about his sanity.


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## Camper6 (Nov 8, 2017)

chic said:


> We should all be armed maybe?



That's impossible.  You can't have children armed to protect themselves and they are the most vulnerable.

What the U.S. has now isn't working. 

Keep making the same mistakes and expect different results?

Time to change the focus from blaming agencies and individuals to the weapons that they use in mass murders.


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## Pete (Nov 8, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> That's impossible.  You can't have children armed to protect themselves



'Camper6' I feel that 'chic' did not mean children should be armed, but her comment was directed at the adults that are responsible for the children's safety. However after 20 years living in the Alaskan bush I have found that most families do not keep their firearms away from their children but instruct them how to safely handle and fire them. Of course up here it is out of necessity that they learn early about firearms because for them it is a question of not only food but safety.


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## todalake (Nov 8, 2017)

I like to hunt so not anti-gun.   I agree with Pete on better checks for mentally ill people but also think they should be tighter control over military type guns.    If you want to use one with more than 5 shots it be used at a certified gun range and gun stays there.


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## todalake (Nov 8, 2017)

I was actually surprised that there wasn't one of the church goers packing being that was Texas.

5:30   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyEFS_63H_o


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## Big Horn (Nov 8, 2017)

todalake said:


> *I like to hunt so not anti-gun.*   I agree with Pete on better checks for mentally ill people but also think they should be tighter control over military type guns.    If you want to use one with more than 5 shots it be used at a certified gun range and gun stays there.


When I read  that, I know what's coming next.  It's getting old  though.  The antigun organizations have been telling members to post just what you did for years.

The Founding Fathers didn't write the Second Amendment because of hunting.  They didn't do it because of crime.  They did it as a protection against government.  The American Revolution had just ended a few years before.  Everyone remembered the British attempted to seize our arms at Lexington and Concord.

Our nation wouldn't exist if it weren't for privately owned guns.


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## Camper6 (Nov 8, 2017)

Pete said:


> 'Camper6' I feel that 'chic' did not mean children should be armed, but her comment was directed at the adults that are responsible for the children's safety. However after 20 years living in the Alaskan bush I have found that most families do not keep their firearms away from their children but instruct them how to safely handle and fire them. Of course up here it is out of necessity that they learn early about firearms because for them it is a question of not only food but safety.



Yes Pete but I don't think you can spend all day in school with your children.  They should be safe in school.  

My thrust and comments are because my family lives in the United States.  

I'm not against all guns. I am against rapid fire AR-15 rifles.  Those are the weapons of choice in mass murders.


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## Camper6 (Nov 8, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> When I read  that, I know what's coming next.  It's getting old  though.  The antigun organizations have been telling members to post just what you did for years.
> 
> The Founding Fathers didn't write the Second Amendment because of hunting.  They didn't do it because of crime.  They did it as a protection against government.  The American Revolution had just ended a few years before.  Everyone remembered the British attempted to seize our arms at Lexington and Concord.
> 
> Our nation wouldn't exist if it weren't for privately owned guns.




That's true.  
Except that the Second Amendment does mention militia.

The Founding Fathers also struggled with having a standing army.

So now the U.S. has  the Armed Forces.

And the militia from what I understand is the National Guard.


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## todalake (Nov 8, 2017)

For all you gun lovers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU


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## BobF (Nov 8, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Yes Pete but I don't think you can spend all day in school with your children.  They should be safe in school.
> 
> My thrust and comments are because my family lives in the United States.
> 
> I'm not against all guns. I am against rapid fire AR-15 rifles.  Those are the weapons of choice in mass murders.



Those guns used in Los Vegas were absolutely illegal.   The shooter added an accessory to allow rapid fire.   Not sure how those things ever got to be legal or usable.   No guns for the public that can fire any faster than the shooters finger can pull the trigger.   And that is not as fast as a rapid fire gun shoots by a large number.


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## Camper6 (Nov 8, 2017)

todalake said:


> For all you gun lovers!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU



Another Stephen Paddock?


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## IKE (Nov 8, 2017)

todalake said:


> For all you gun lovers!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU



:thumbsup1::thumbsup1:


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## Camper6 (Nov 8, 2017)

BobF said:


> Those guns used in Los Vegas were absolutely illegal.   The shooter added an accessory to allow rapid fire.   Not sure how those things ever got to be legal or usable.   No guns for the public that can fire any faster than the shooters finger can pull the trigger.   And that is not as fast as a rapid fire gun shoots by a large number.



The bump stocks are legal.
Only one state has banned them. Massachussets.


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## Camper6 (Nov 9, 2017)

todalake said:


> I like to hunt so not anti-gun.   I agree with Pete on better checks for mentally ill people but also think they should be tighter control over military type guns.    If you want to use one with more than 5 shots it be used at a certified gun range and gun stays there.



Now that makes sense and people would sleep easier.


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## Camper6 (Nov 9, 2017)

If you are relying on someone armed to show up to stop a mass murder you are relying on random luck.

In Vegas no one could have stopped what happened.


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## Eric (Nov 11, 2017)

@Pete


> *…...even if you are staunchly anti-gun (please) consider this, in the gunman's vehicle were more weapons and ammunition and when he left that church he was on his way to kill more people because he had nothing to loose. If it **wasn't for an armed citizen** living across from the church, who pursued and shot the gunman, the death toll may have been much higher.*


Amen buddy a lot more dead if it wasn't for that armed neighbor. Those anti gun people won't consider it from all I heard, it gets in the way of their agenda.


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## Eric (Nov 11, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> In Vegas no one could have stopped what happened.


You're right Camper6 because of the shooter's location, but in the churches, theaters and schools the killer could have been stopped.


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## Camper6 (Nov 11, 2017)

Eric said:


> You're right Camper6 because of the shooter's location, but in the churches, theaters and schools the killer could have been stopped.



A big maybe on that. It depends on a lot of things.


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## Camper6 (Nov 13, 2017)

Eric said:


> @Pete
> 
> Amen buddy a lot more dead if it wasn't for that armed neighbor. Those anti gun people won't consider it from all I heard, it gets in the way of their agenda.



The armed neighbour did not stop one killing or one wounded in the church.

He was accosted after he was leaving the church.  The shooting was all over and done with. The only one that died after the shooting was the shooter who committed suicide.


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## Eric (Nov 13, 2017)

Eric said:


> @Pete
> 
> Amen buddy a lot more dead if it wasn't for that armed neighbor. *Those anti gun people won't consider it from all I heard, it gets in the way of their agenda.*





Camper6 said:


> The armed neighbour did not stop one killing or one wounded in the church.
> 
> He was accosted after he was leaving the church.  The shooting was all over and done with. The only one that died after the shooting was the shooter who committed suicide.



Of course not he didn't stop one killing in the church because he wasn't *in *the church would be a good trick if he did.  If anybody in the church was carrying then maybe they could have stopped him in the act but as usual it was a soft target gun free zone perfect place for a killer. If the armed neighbor didn't act fast and shoot him when he did he wouldn't have gotten injured and  dropped his weapon.  Unless he would go home after that with his semi auto and other guns and order a pizza and watch a movie on tv, most people would suspect he'd go on another killing spree.  If he didn't that day he'd be a ticking timebomb until he had another gathering of sitting ducks. Like I told Pete, the anti gun people won't consider it no sense askin', it gets in the way of their agenda. They can make up their own reality not my problem. The neighbor was a hero.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

Eric said:


> Of course not he didn't stop one killing in the church because he wasn't *in *the church would be a good trick if he did.  If anybody in the church was carrying then maybe they could have stopped him in the act but as usual it was a soft target gun free zone perfect place for a killer. If the armed neighbor didn't act fast and shoot him when he did he wouldn't have gotten injured and  dropped his weapon.  Unless he would go home after that with his semi auto and other guns and order a pizza and watch a movie on tv, most people would suspect he'd go on another killing spree.  If he didn't that day he'd be a ticking timebomb until he had another gathering of sitting ducks. Like I told Pete, the anti gun people won't consider it no sense askin', it gets in the way of their agenda. They can make up their own reality not my problem. The neighbor was a hero.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks for that. People keep insisting that the good neighbor was in the church and stopped the carnage. He wasn't.
> 
> ...


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

IKE said:


> :thumbsup1::thumbsup1:



25 people died. That guy is sick.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

Eric said:


> You're right Camper6 because of the shooter's location, but in the churches, theaters and schools the killer could have been stopped.



You are sitting in a theatre in the dark. A guy shows up with a semi automatic rifle and starts shooting. What chance have you got?

Same in the schools and churches. Young children can't defend themselves.

It's a poor solution to the problem.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> You are sitting in a theatre in the dark. A guy shows up with a semi automatic rifle and starts shooting. What chance have you got?



Correct me if I'm wrong, but a movie theater is only rarely totally dark. The light from the projected film, along with emergency exit lights and aisle lights, provides enough light for the bad guy to see - how can the good guy _not_?


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## BobF (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> The bump stocks are legal.
> Only one state has banned them. Massachussets.



The bump stocks are legal as no one thought of them to be what they do to the guns, which are illegal if shooting faster than the trigger can be pulled.   No full automatic is supposed to be happening.   Which the bump stock does allow.   More states should follow with the illegal application of using them, bump stocks, on the modified military style guns to allow automatic fire once again.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 14, 2017)

Bump stocks do not allow "full auto" operation. Close, but not exactly the same.

But I agree that there is no reason for these devices to be legal. The problem of course is one of, a law is passed banning them, and the determined shooter will simply find another way.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but a movie theater is only rarely totally dark. The light from the projected film, along with emergency exit lights and aisle lights, provides enough light for the bad guy to see - how can the good guy _not_?


I'm thinking.  You are sitting forward watching the movie.  You can't see what is behind you.  You are a perfect silhouette.

The good guy is facing the movie.  Don't you think these insane murderers know this.  That's why they pick these targets.

He comes up from behind with a rapid fire rifle and it's ball game over.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Bump stocks do not allow "full auto" operation. Close, but not exactly the same.
> 
> But I agree that there is no reason for these devices to be legal. The problem of course is one of, a law is passed banning them, and the determined shooter will simply find another way.



Let him.  Don't  make it easy for him.

I checked out your blog.  I'm impressed.  We are going to be legalizing marijuana in Canada.  With all the problems we have with alcohol we need weed like a hole in the head.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I'm thinking.  You are sitting forward watching the movie.  You can't see what is behind you.  You are a perfect silhouette.
> 
> The good guy is facing the movie.  Don't you think these insane murderers know this.  That's why they pick these targets.
> 
> He comes up from behind with a rapid fire rifle and it's ball game over.



Okay, I agree that the good guys might be silhouetted. 

... that's when the ushers come in with their flame throwers.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Let him.  Don't  make it easy for him.



Well, you probably know how many Americans are sort of fanatical about having government restrictions placed upon them. If they started passing laws to cover every contingency we'd probably have another civil war. 



> I checked out your blog.  I'm impressed.  We are going to be legalizing marijuana in Canada.  With all the problems we have with alcohol we need weed like a hole in the head.



Weed might be the answer to alcoholism, no? 

In all the time I was a bouncer I never had a stoner make trouble. Drunks? Sure, loads of them. They don't call it "Courage in a bottle" for nothing. 

I know the indigenous peoples in Canada have a problem with alcoholism - don't know what their stance is on weed.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Well, you probably know how many Americans are sort of fanatical about having government restrictions placed upon them. If they started passing laws to cover every contingency we'd probably have another civil war.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know either. I'm not looking forward to legalization. When you legalize more people will try it.

At one time gambling was illegal. When they legalized it I got hooked. The police chiefs are against it. Just more problems for them as if they don't have enough to do.

When Canadians enter the U.S. they will run into customs officers. It's not legal in the U.S. A conviction in Canada can keep you from entering the U.S.


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## Butterfly (Nov 14, 2017)

Pete said:


> 'Camper6' I feel that 'chic' did not mean children should be armed, but her comment was directed at the adults that are responsible for the children's safety. However after 20 years living in the Alaskan bush I have found that most families do not keep their firearms away from their children but instruct them how to safely handle and fire them. Of course up here it is out of necessity that they learn early about firearms because for them it is a question of not only food but safety.



When I was a little kiddo, my immediate and extended family also had guns around, and from a very early age, we were instructed on gun safety and use.  We knew absolutely that they were not toys and that we should not mess with them, and that if we did so terrible wrath would come down upon us.  As we grew older, we were taught how to fire them, with a strong emphasis on safe handling.  It was just like any other thing around the house -- don't touch the stove, don't stick your finger in a light socket, don't mess with rattlesnakes or knives, NEVER assume a weapon is not loaded, etc. 

It wasn't a big deal to us.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> When I was a little kiddo, my immediate and extended family also had guns around, and from a very early age, we were instructed on gun safety and use.  We knew absolutely that they were not toys and that we should not mess with them, and that if we did so terrible wrath would come down upon us.  As we grew older, we were taught how to fire them, with a strong emphasis on safe handling.  It was just like any other thing around the house -- don't touch the stove, don't stick your finger in a light socket, don't mess with rattlesnakes or knives, NEVER assume a weapon is not loaded, etc.
> 
> It wasn't a big deal to us.



Butterfly. Things have changed drastically since you were a child. Back then guns were primarily used for hunting.
Now they are being used for crime.

When you were a child did you ever hear about a school shooting like Newton?

We just had another one in California.


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## Warrigal (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> When you were a child did you ever hear about a school shooting like Newton?
> 
> We just had another one in California.



There has been a deep silence about the latest shooting and about the fact that there have been 307 shootings of 4 or more people so far this year.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Butterfly. Things have changed drastically since you were a child. Back then guns were primarily used for hunting.
> Now they are being used for crime.
> 
> When you were a child did you ever hear about a school shooting like Newton?
> ...



They're saying the nutcase in California had a dispute with a neighbor, and he killed her today.

We always had guns in our home. They were kept in a locked closet, and before we were considered old enough to use them, we had to adhere to my father's version of gun safety. He had a list of rules posted on the inside of the closet and no infractions were tolerated. My brother and I were the only ones beside my father who ever used the guns.

That was in the days before we discovered the most manly men could become famous and go down in history for killing large numbers of total strangers. All the better if they killed school children. It takes a real man to shoot a child.


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## Linda W. (Nov 14, 2017)

If this keeps happening, the U.S. population will go down instead of up. It's really bad...we never had to worry about this kind of thing when I was young. Today was November mass shooting no. 2


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 14, 2017)

Allegedly today's shooting started with a neighbor dispute. He killed the neighbor woman and then went on his rampage.

I have a psycho neighbor I describe as a bad combination of big, mean and stupid. I watch him like a hawk because I don't think it would take much to set him off.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 15, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I don't know either. I'm not looking forward to legalization. When you legalize more people will try it.



And what is wrong with that? You DO know about the medical benefits of weed, right? 



> At one time gambling was illegal. When they legalized it I got hooked. The police chiefs are against it. Just more problems for them as if they don't have enough to do.



Our local casino is owned by the Mohegan tribe of Connecticut. Perhaps the tax cuts, local jobs and profits for the deep-pocket investors outweigh any negative feelings.



> When Canadians enter the U.S. they will run into customs officers. It's not legal in the U.S. A conviction in Canada can keep you from entering the U.S.



Not sure I understand this. 29 U.S. states and D.C. have legalized weed. Besides, if you're smuggling it across borders you aren't too smart to begin with.


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## Sunny (Nov 15, 2017)

Why single out the US for all this criticism?  What about the mass killings in recent years in London, Paris, Barcelona, St. Petersburg, Manchester, Nice, Germany, and Belgium?  Take a look at this timeline (yes, I know it's from Fox News, but every once in a while they're right.)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/01/timeline-recent-terror-attacks-against-west.html


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## Camper6 (Nov 15, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> And what is wrong with that? You DO know about the medical benefits of weed, right?
> 
> Medical weed is readily available. No problem with that. Recreational is the issue.
> 
> ...



In Canada it will be federal and apply to the entire country. The U.S. is state but still illegal federally. The borders are federal. their job is to keep weed out.


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## Camper6 (Nov 15, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Why single out the US for all this criticism?  What about the mass killings in recent years in London, Paris, Barcelona, St. Petersburg, Manchester, Nice, Germany, and Belgium?  Take a look at this timeline (yes, I know it's from Fox News, but every once in a while they're right.)
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/01/timeline-recent-terror-attacks-against-west.html



Never look at another country and what they do. It has no effect on th U.S. I don't think we are focusing on terrorism in the opening thread.


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## chic (Nov 15, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> When I was a little kiddo, my immediate and extended family also had guns around, and from a very early age, we were instructed on gun safety and use.  We knew absolutely that they were not toys and that we should not mess with them, and that if we did so terrible wrath would come down upon us.  As we grew older, we were taught how to fire them, with a strong emphasis on safe handling.  It was just like any other thing around the house -- don't touch the stove, don't stick your finger in a light socket, don't mess with rattlesnakes or knives, NEVER assume a weapon is not loaded, etc.
> 
> It wasn't a big deal to us.



This is exactly the way it was in my family too. People are the problem. Of course, we used pistols and rifles to shoot with. No one owned a machine gun. I really don't understand why those are available to civilians as they are designed for warfare, not for target shooting or hunting.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 15, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> In Canada it will be federal and apply to the entire country. The U.S. is state but still illegal federally. The borders are federal. their job is to keep weed out.



You're right. I didn't even think of that.


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## Camper6 (Nov 15, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> You're right. I didn't even think of that.


Thanks. It's a rare occasion when someone says I'm right.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> Thanks. It's a rare occasion when someone says I'm right.



Hey, when you're right you're right.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 16, 2017)

When I moved to PA, I was introduced to a great PA  custom. The first day of doe season, it always was the Monday after Thanksgiving. On  late Sunday, certain bars would blacken their windows and opened their back doors. About 2 AM, Monday, the crowd would drop in. Most of them dress in "camo". Then after drinking for 3 hours, at 5 AM, it was customary to down a couple of shots,because they served as"antifreeze". Then they would head out to shoot something.


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## RadishRose (Nov 16, 2017)

fuzzybuddy said:


> When I moved to PA, I was introduced to a great PA  custom. The first day of doe season, it always was the Monday after Thanksgiving. On  late Sunday, certain bars would blacken their windows and opened their back doors. About 2 AM, Monday, the crowd would drop in. Most of them dress in "camo". Then after drinking for 3 hours, at 5 AM, it was customary to down a couple of shots,because they served as"antifreeze". Then they would head out to shoot something.



Sorry Fuzzy, I'm not sure I understand;

At 5 AM, drunken men dressed in camo go out to shoot deer?  I don't understand what "antifreeze" means in this case. Thanks


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## SifuPhil (Nov 16, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> Sorry Fuzzy, I'm not sure I understand;
> 
> At 5 AM, drunken men dressed in camo go out to shoot deer?



Deer hunting season is almost the state (well, Commonwealth) religion here. Some schools close for the first day, so Junior can accompany Pop. 

Many of them "tank up" before they go out. Always a great idea, mixing booze and guns.



> I don't understand what "antifreeze" means in this case. Thanks



They believe that being "juiced" will help them ignore or at least tolerate the cold.


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## RadishRose (Nov 16, 2017)

Oh my goodness, that sounds extremely dangerous.


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## Big Horn (Nov 16, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> Oh my goodness, that sounds extremely dangerous. Is it lawful to hunt with firearms while intoxicated?


At one time, the LAPD pistol team believed that they shot better when drunk,  I don't know what laws may govern hunting while drunk, but I'm sure that some law covers it everywhere.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 16, 2017)

In PA, deer hunting is a father/son event.  That Monday is a cherished day. Many use their vacation time.  It is probably the most asked for day off. PA has hundreds of local bars.  At 2 AM, Monday some bars open their back doors, so patrons can come in without being seen.  These bars are filled with hunters having a good time and drinking beer and shots. At about 5 AM, it's customary to have a couple of shots as a deterrent to the cold, thus they call those shots of alcohol ,"antifeeze". Then they head off to the woods as the hunting season begins at dawn. Of course, some take "antifreeze" with them. And I have been told I made a grievous error. No, nothing about the bars illegally opening or the drinking, but it's the start of buck season, not doe season. I was a drinker, not a hunter.


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## IKE (Nov 16, 2017)

SifuPhil;  said:
			
		

> Many of them "tank up" before they go out. Always a great idea, mixing booze and guns.
> 
> 
> 
> They believe that being "juiced" will help them ignore or at least tolerate the cold.




Like most *responsible* gun owners I have never gone hunting or handled firearms while being "juiced" or "tanked up" nor would I associate with people that were handling firearms while under the influence.


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## Butterfly (Nov 16, 2017)

IKE said:


> Like most *responsible* gun owners I have never gone hunting or handled firearms while being "juiced" or "tanked up" nor would I associate with people that were handling firearms while under the influence.



Nor would I -- prescription for disaster.


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## Warrigal (Nov 16, 2017)

What is the kill rate for hunters? 
I'm not asking how many animals do they kill but how many hunters are killed by other drunken hunters?
I won't believe zero as the answer.


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## IKE (Nov 17, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> How many hunters are killed by other drunken hunters ?



I'll play.......how many hunters are accidentally killed by other *sober* hunters ?


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2017)

If they are drunk, it might be accidental.
If they are sober, perhaps it is deliberate ???


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## SifuPhil (Nov 17, 2017)

The PA Game Commission claims there were *0* hunting deaths in 2016. There WERE, however, *25* non-fatal hunting-relating shootings.



> Almost half were cases of a hunter getting in the line of fire when another hunter shot.


Lancaster Online

Supposedly 2012 was the only other year to not have any deaths from hunting.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 17, 2017)

Not familiar with hunters drinking prior to going hunting but in my area if a hunter spent a cold windy afternoon in a saloon it was said that he was up on mahogany ridge.


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## IKE (Nov 17, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> If they are sober, perhaps it is deliberate ???



I suppose going deer hunting would be a good time to settle things with the fella that you just learned was having an affair with your wife .

Actually most hunters that are killed or wounded by another hunter is because the fella that pulled the trigger 'mistook' the other fella for a deer.......which means the shooter wasn't sure of his target, was inexperienced in the woods, had a classic case of 'buck fever' or all of the above.

Most if not all states have made it mandatory for several years that all hunters, especially during rifle / big game season, wear both a cap and vest of hunter orange material (of at least 'X' square inches) and also attend a 'hunter safety class' prior to being able to purchase a hunting license which has helped to alleviate a lot of the accidental shootings.


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> The PA Game Commission claims there were *0* hunting deaths in 2016. There WERE, however, *25* non-fatal hunting-relating shootings.
> 
> 
> Lancaster Online
> ...



From what I have read it would seem that the number of accidental shootings of people by hunters is trending down, Currently approx. 1000 people per year in US and Canada. Education does seem to be working.

Still, one wonder how a newborn baby can be shot in the head by hunters while on his father's lap inside their home.



> Newborn Baby Shot In Head In Pennsylvania ‘Hunting Accident’ (VIDEO)By Randa Morris on September 29, 2014 8:48 pm  ·


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## IKE (Nov 17, 2017)

> =Warrigal
> 
> Still, one wonder how a newborn baby can be shot in the head by hunters while on his father's lap inside their home.



Very sad Warrigal but hundreds if not thousands of accidents resulting in death happen each and every day all across the globe involving children as well as adults and I'd be willing to wager that of those accidents less than 1% of the total were actually caused by firearms.


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## Sunny (Nov 17, 2017)

Tom Lehrer "The Hunting Song"

I always will remember,
 'Twas a year ago November,
 I went out to hunt some deer
 On a mornin' bright and clear.
 I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow,
 Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

 I was in no mood to trifle,
 I took down my trusty rifle
 And went out to stalk my prey.
 What a haul I made that day.
 I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow,
 Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

 The law was very firm, it
 Took away my permit,
 The worst punishment I ever endured.
 It turned out there was a reason,
 Cows were out of season,
 And one of the hunters wasn't insured.

 People ask me how I do it,
 And I say, "There's nothin' to it,
 You just stand there lookin' cute,
 And when something moves, you shoot!"
 And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
 Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred Guernsey cow.


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## ray188 (Nov 17, 2017)

There are, of course, situations of ideology such as ISIS. But separate from that there are people getting mad at someone and killing them and often many people around them. We should be trying to figure out what causes that. I believe that it is a societal issue closely related to the "snowflake" situation. We are getting our population in a mindset that makes it think that nothing should ever go wrong for them - that they are entitled to a perfect life and when something does go wrong, they do not know how to handle it. Some drop out, some cry, some demand a "safe space", and some get violent.


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2017)

IKE said:


> Very sad Warrigal but hundreds if not thousands of accidents resulting in death happen each and every day all across the globe involving children as well as adults and I'd be willing to wager that of those accidents less than 1% of the total were actually caused by firearms.



True, but in the context of this thread, such accidents would seem to become more likely when alcohol is part of the culture.
It is a fact over here that in a high proportion of drownings alcohol is a factor, even in drownings of children.
Sometimes the adults don't notice a child sipping from the adults' glasses and the adults, having imbibed, aren't paying the right amount of attention to the dangers around them.

I reckon alcohol and shooting should never happen together. I refused to allow my 8 year old son to go away on father son kangaroo shooting weekends for two reason. One was that the men would have been taking large quantities of beer with them. The other was that a lot of kangaroos were not killed outright and were finished of by clubbing them with an axe handle. I did not think that was a suitable activity for a little boy. My husband found it a sickening experience and didn't want to repeat the experience.

Hunting kangaroos is not actually hunting. There is no stalking of prey. It is simply slaughter of gentle animals that are caught in the glare of a powerful spotlight. They stand up blinded by the light and are easy targets. It is all done from the back of a ute. It is best left to the professional shooters when culling becomes necessary.


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## Warrigal (Nov 17, 2017)

ray188 said:


> There are, of course, situations of ideology such as ISIS. But separate from that there are people getting mad at someone and killing them and often many people around them. We should be trying to figure out what causes that. I believe that it is a societal issue closely related to the "snowflake" situation. We are getting our population in a mindset that makes it think that nothing should ever go wrong for them - that they are entitled to a perfect life and when something does go wrong, they do not know how to handle it. Some drop out, some cry, some demand a "safe space", and some get violent.



I think you are onto something there. I do think a lot more money should be channelled into studying this phenomenon to see what the common threads are that point to a possible cause and hopefully the signs that someone needs intervention before it is too late.


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## Butterfly (Nov 17, 2017)

ray188 said:


> There are, of course, situations of ideology such as ISIS. But separate from that there are people getting mad at someone and killing them and often many people around them. We should be trying to figure out what causes that. I believe that it is a societal issue closely related to the "snowflake" situation. We are getting our population in a mindset that makes it think that nothing should ever go wrong for them - that they are entitled to a perfect life and when something does go wrong, they do not know how to handle it. Some drop out, some cry, some demand a "safe space", and some get violent.



I agree strongly.  There is way too much of the feeling that "I'm entitled to have a perfect life" and "I'm special."   Maybe it's the "everybody gets a trophy" thing, or maybe nobody ever stressed to them, as my mother did to me, that life isn't fair -- never was, and never will be.


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## Butterfly (Nov 17, 2017)

Sunny said:


> Tom Lehrer "The Hunting Song"
> 
> I always will remember,
> 'Twas a year ago November,
> ...



Hey, Sunny -- I thought I was the only one left on the planet that found Tom Lehrer hilarious.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 17, 2017)

Drop kick me Jesus through the goal posts of life.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 17, 2017)

I don't care if it rains or feezes as long as I've got my plastic Jesus.


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## Butterfly (Nov 18, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I don't care if it rains or feezes as long as I've got my plastic Jesus.



Ridin' on the dashboard of my car . . . .


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 18, 2017)

Years ago I went on a retreat at a Catholic retreat center. I was so sure their gift shop would have a plastic dashboard Jesus, but no. I was so disappointed.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 18, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> Hey, Sunny -- I thought I was the only one left on the planet that found Tom Lehrer hilarious.



You're not the only one - I've listened to him for years.


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