# Trans-Pacific Partnership



## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

https://ustr.gov/tpp




> President Obama’s trade agenda is dedicated to expanding economic opportunity for American workers, farmers, ranchers, and businesses. That’s why we are negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a 21st century trade agreement that will boost U.S. economic growth, support American jobs, and grow Made-in-America exports to some of the most dynamic and fastest growing countries in the world.





> As the cornerstone of the Obama Administration’s economic policy in the Asia Pacific, the Trans-Pacific Partnership reflects the United States’ economic priorities and values. The TPP not only seeks to provide new and meaningful market access for American goods and services exports, but also set high-standard rules for trade, and address vital 21st-century issues within the global economy.




So who really knows anything about this?   It's all in secret apparently.  Obama is looking for "Fast Track" so this trade agreement will be forced to pass without debate or amendments.   Apparently no one really knows many details..  Many Democrats and even some Republicans are against it.  But I am unclear on why.   Democrats say it will hurt middle class Americans..  Republicans fear for our Sovereinty.   I find it hard to believe that Obama would do somethng to hurt workers, but we really don't know much about this..  Some call it NAFTA on steroids... and it's scarey..


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## Jackie22 (Feb 10, 2015)

I been wondering the same, QS, I really don't know enough about it, but as you said many Democrats against it.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

So are most members of the Teaparty..  Apparently it gives Foreign Corporations power to write legislation, or something... so they, and rightly so, feel it compromises our sovereinty..   Same as you,  I don't know much about it.   I want Obama to explain what is so good about it.. and HOW it's going to protect AMericans from unfair trade practices and curency manipulation..  WE NEED MORE INFO!!


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## WhatInThe (Feb 10, 2015)

Some describe as another NAFTA. Must say even the west coast press doesn't seem to agree with this treaty.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20150206-column.html#page=1

http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2025662523_sorscheropedfairtrade10xml.html

This has been either stealthy or an under reported treaty unless you were paying attention. I didn't realize how many were against it until I saw where the same groups participating in the Ferguson or NY protests are also against this treaty. Apparently corporate America wins big here.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

What can we do???  This blows my mind...  Don't Corporations hate Obama?  Doesn't Obama claim to be for the Middle Class...  This just isn't adding up.


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## Jackie22 (Feb 10, 2015)

"Not Enough Info" ...that is what Senator Warren said too...

*Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) on Wednesday voiced her opposition to President Barack Obama’s top international trade nominee because of a secretive free trade agreement. 

“I am deeply concerned about the transparency record of the U.S. Trade Representative and with one ongoing trade agreement in particular — the Trans-Pacific Partnership,” she said on the Senate floor. 

The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) has been negotiated behind closed-doors for years by trade representatives from Australia, Brunei, Chile, Canada, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the United States, and Vietnam. Though the free trade agreement could have wide ranging consequences on workers and consumers, the public only knows a few details of the treaty thanks to leaked documents. 

“I have heard the argument that transparency would undermine the Trade Representative’s policy to complete the trade agreement because public opposition would be significant,” Warren explained. “In other words, if people knew what was going on, they would stop it. This argument is exactly backwards. If transparency would lead to widespread public opposition to a trade agreement, then that trade agreement should not be the policy of the United States.” 

The Senate confirmed Michael Froman as the new United States Trade Representative by a 93-4 vote. Sens. Joe Manchin (D-WV), Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Carl Levin (D-MI) joined Warren in voting no. 

Link: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/06/...le-knew-what-was-going-on-they-would-stop-it/ 
*


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## WhatInThe (Feb 10, 2015)

Lack of transparency is the big issue. But things like this treaty covers 40% of the worlds economy. Allows corporations to usurp domestic regulations and allows big pharma control of and/or raise prices in poorer countries.

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/06/the...fic_partnership_is_being_kept_secret_partner/


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

That usurping of domestic regulations  is what has the Teaparty against this..


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## Don M. (Feb 10, 2015)

There are many references to the TPP on the Internet...most are speculation because the full text of this proposed legislation is being treated in a very secretive manner.  Only a handful of inside negotiators have access to the full text, and even Congress has been supplied with only a brief description of what is intended.  It appears to be "corporate driven", and would reduce many of the U.S. regulations that currently protect the American consumer and worker from substandard foreign products, and reduced jobs/wages from foreign competition.  Here is just one example of the info available on the Net....

http://www.citizen.org/tpp

The fact that all these negotiations are being conducted behind closed doors, with little info released to the public, strongly suggests that this proposal is NOT in the best interest of the US public.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 10, 2015)

Don M. said:


> There are many references to the TPP on the Internet...most are speculation because the full text of this proposed legislation is being treated in a very secretive manner.  Only a handful of inside negotiators have access to the full text, and even Congress has been supplied with only a brief description of what is intended.  It appears to be "corporate driven", and would reduce many of the U.S. regulations that currently protect the American consumer and worker from substandard foreign products, and reduced jobs/wages from foreign competition.  Here is just one example of the info available on the Net....
> 
> http://www.citizen.org/tpp
> 
> The fact that all these negotiations are being conducted behind closed doors, with little info released to the public, strongly suggests that this proposal is NOT in the best interest of the US public.



What stands out right away is that only 5 of 24 chapters or sections of the pact deal with actual trade.  It also sounds like mandatory arbitration for plaintiffs and countries with 'tribunals', in other words it keeps the corporations out of court. The countries where these companies set up shop are screwed as will be the US because we can't compete in a rigged game tilted in these corporations favor. Also mentions internet and drugs.


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So are most members of the Teaparty..  Apparently it gives Foreign Corporations power to write legislation, or something... so they, and rightly so, feel it compromises our sovereinty..   Same as you,  I don't know much about it.   I want Obama to explain what is so good about it.. and HOW it's going to protect AMericans from unfair trade practices and curency manipulation..  WE NEED MORE INFO!!



We don't know anything about 3 trade treaties that we know are almost finalised (maybe even signed already). We're more worried about being sued by American Big Corporations that don't like our legislation - environmental, quarantine, labour laws, carbon emissions tax etc
I reckon it's you guys who constitute the biggest threat to our sovereignty rather than the other way round.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> We don't know anything about 3 trade treaties that we know are almost finalised (maybe even signed already). We're more worried about being sued by American Big Corporations that don't like our legislation - environmental, quarantine, labour laws, carbon emissions tax etc
> I reckon it's you guys who constitute the biggest threat to our sovereignty rather than the other way round.



"You guys?"    As in US... the people?  Surely you jest..   I can assure you that the only "guys" making out like bandits on this will be the large Multi-national Corporations.   "Us guys" will be screwed like the rest of the "common folk".


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

They're your multinationals, for the most part.


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

This post found it's way into the wrong thread.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> They're your multinationals, for the most part.



I certainly cannot claim ownership....  It almost feels like you are blaming the American people for this clusterfutch.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I certainly cannot claim ownership....  It almost feels like you are blaming the American people for this clusterfutch.



Trust me... WE are going to suffer as much as anyone else with this mess...   Multi-nationals claim no country... they write their own songs.. and countries dance to them


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

Blaming you? No.

But the size and power of US based multinationals is something that worries us when we hear that our government is entering into secret free trade agreements. Somehow we aren't so worried about the Chinese or the Japanese. They don't seem to be quite as litigious.

We have some very unique things that we want to protect and we worry about some multinational challenging our quarantine laws on the grounds that they are anti free trade. We also want to protect our pharmaceutical benefits scheme and we don't trust our own government not to sell it down the river to secure a deal.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Blaming you? No.
> 
> But the size and power of US based multinationals is something that worries us when we hear that our government is entering into secret free trade agreements. Somehow we aren't so worried about the Chinese or the Japanese. They don't seem to be quite as litigious.
> 
> We have some very unique things that we want to protect and we worry about some multinational challenging our quarantine laws on the grounds that they are anti free trade. We also want to protect our pharmaceutical benefits scheme and we don't trust our own government not to sell it down the river to secure a deal.



And we are worried about them coming here and rewriting regulations to suit them.. Pretty soon we will all be living in the toilet of Corporations.... and there will be no recourse.   Believe me... if we (the average Joe) could stop this... I believe we would.  We are powerless...   What is concerning everyone here is that Obama has asked to "fast track" this treaty...  which means an up or down vote..  NO DEBATE... and no amendments placed by Congress..  This is the first time I have seen Ds and Rs on the same page... maybe for different reasons, but still will vote the same.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 11, 2015)

Been seeing a lot of speculation including one that this treaty could create the Pacific equivalent of the EU(European Union). Certain countries could strain this partner ship much like Greece has with the EU. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/will-the-united-states-en_b_6649252.html

One of the problems with this pact is the US dollar won't be protected or propped up with a minimum which could fester a trade deficit. Also when trading among different countries and/or currencies  what can happen if one currency doesn't have a minimum value are wild swings in value. The spike in the Swiss Franc last month put brokers/banks out of business.


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## Don M. (Feb 11, 2015)

It sounds to me as if the primary supporters of this TPP are the global Drug Companies.  There was something in the news recently where the Supreme Court put major limitations on the ability of people to sue the Drug companies for the "Side Effects" of many of these prescription drugs...and now the TPP would quite probably allow these same drug companies to manufacture their drugs in Asia..at substantially reduced costs.  Were this to happen, and the Asian drugs be made to the same standards as things like Pet Food, anyone taking these drugs would be exposed to even greater dangers.  

Perhaps this is the governments answer to the rising costs of Medicare and Social Security...kill off increased numbers of Seniors with tainted drugs, so that our entitlement programs no longer have to support large numbers of Seniors.


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

There are worries here too about TPP.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

What bothers me so much is that Obama is all gung ho for it... wants it fast tracked... but won't tell us a darn thing...oh.. except how wonderful it will be.   I simply don't understand what he is doing..  I've trusted him... until now..


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## Don M. (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What bothers me so much is that Obama is all gung ho for it... wants it fast tracked... but won't tell us a darn thing...oh.. except how wonderful it will be.   I simply don't understand what he is doing..  I've trusted him... until now..



What you have to keep in mind is that Obama is first and foremost a Politician.  As such, he has accepted vast sums of money from the wealthy and special interests, during his campaigns.  That money comes with Obligations, and at some point the big contributors expect to receive some "value" for their "generosity.  Obama now has less that two years left in the Oval Office, with nothing to lose...stay tuned for what may be coming down the pike.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> What you have to keep in mind is that Obama is first and foremost a Politician.  As such, he has accepted vast sums of money from the wealthy and special interests, during his campaigns.  That money comes with Obligations, and at some point the big contributors expect to receive some "value" for their "generosity.  Obama now has less that two years left in the Oval Office, with nothing to lose...stay tuned for what may be coming down the pike.



Still.... all the rhetoric about income inequality, and taxing the wealthy, and leveling the playing field.... to now do something so harmful to the very people he has purported  to care so much about..... This would DESTROY American jobs and also our environment with regulation elimination.... it seems too far fetched..  I just wish the full text was out and that Obama would come out and explain how this will be such a great thing for America.


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## Don M. (Feb 11, 2015)

Obama is no different than most politicians....tell the public what they want to hear...then, go about the duties of keeping the Big Money boys happy.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Obama is no different than most politicians....tell the public what they want to hear...then, go about the duties of keeping the Big Money boys happy.



Well  I certainly hope you are not right... BUT this sneaky deal really has me wondering.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What bothers me so much is that Obama is all gung ho for it... wants it fast tracked... but won't tell us a darn thing...oh.. except how wonderful it will be.   I simply don't understand what he is doing..  I've trusted him... until now..



There's probably favors to be paid. What better way to disguise the payoff than to include them in a treaty with a seemingly harmless name. Going under the premise that big pharma is one of the big benefactors here one could surmise he's paying off a favor to them. Or Obama indirectly could  be doing a favor for a congressman or senator who in turn is actually doing "the" favor. The daisy chain of political favors probably matches many a money laundering scheme. Both parties and/or professional political types included.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/lobbying.php?cycle=2014&ind=H04


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## Warrigal (Feb 11, 2015)

We've had a free trade deal with the US for some time now, but it explicitly excludes our agricultural products***. IMO it is very lopsided. I would like to see some sort of evaluation of this deal before we enter new ones like to TPP. Like others on the forum, it's the secrecy that surrounds these deals that concerns me.

*** At least I think it does.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 12, 2015)

One of the things in the treaty are proprietary rights. Including the patents for generics. By controlling the price of patents they can control generic prices. The proprietary rights clause is how they are going to stifle the internet and posting of information. A lot of stuff you can do in the US won't be able to be done over seas or once treaty is in effect.

http://www.newsclick.in/internation...-partnership-and-international-drug-price-fix

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/trans-pacific-partnership-internet-copyright-laws


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## WhatInThe (Feb 12, 2015)

*Money Trail*

Frank Sanchez who headed the US International Trade Association from 2010 to 2013 when a large chunk of the Trans Pacific Partnership was negotiated donated directly through a corporation to Congressman Xavier Becerra of California who refuses to oppose the treaty.

http://www.opensecrets.org/usearch/...10677907462955562473:nlldkv0jvam&cof=FORID:11

https://www.popularresistance.org/tpp-fast-track-critics-locked-out-of-congressman-becerras-office/

Follow The Money!


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## Josiah (Feb 12, 2015)

I confess I'm really not up to speed on this very complex subject, but based on everything I've read, I have to side with those who oppose this treaty.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 13, 2015)

*US citizens not the only ones to lose*



Dame Warrigal said:


> Blaming you? No.
> 
> But the size and power of US based multinationals is something that worries us when we hear that our government is entering into secret free trade agreements. Somehow we aren't so worried about the Chinese or the Japanese. They don't seem to be quite as litigious.
> 
> We have some very unique things that we want to protect and we worry about some multinational challenging our quarantine laws on the grounds that they are anti free trade. We also want to protect our pharmaceutical benefits scheme and we don't trust our own government not to sell it down the river to secure a deal.



A pretty accurate perspective for New Zealand/Australia.

http://theconversation.com/a-danger...ealand-and-the-trans-pacific-partnership-7440

https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-the-journal/all-issues/2010-2019/2014/vol-127-no.-1389/5986

Basically as many seem to feel this is a big pharma push because they will really benefit.

https://www.transcend.org/tms/2015/...tnership-and-international-drug-price-fixing/


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## Warrigal (Feb 13, 2015)

Thanks, WhatInThe, those links do show the concerns at this end. More worrying though is the lack of transparency.
We've been told that our current government has finalised and signed three new trade treaties but the details remain secret.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

How is it even LEGAL to keep these things a secret is what I want to know..


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 13, 2015)

I'm not up to speed on this topic either, but here's a Democrat who's angry about it.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/13/lloyd-doggett-tpp-trade_n_6680624.html


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## WhatInThe (Feb 13, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I'm not up to speed on this topic either, but here's a Democrat who's angry about it.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/13/lloyd-doggett-tpp-trade_n_6680624.html



Good article on the situation. 

-Michael Froman trade negotiator hedging and hogging on request for information.

-There are redactions in currently released or available information. The will not release unredacted information.

-the US Trade reps/office "says" Congress can be granted full access to treaty information but it's a process to see them AND they are NOT allowed to take notes

I'm even more against the treaty I was already opposed to.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 14, 2015)

Big Pharma WILL benefit from the Trans Pacific Partnership or TPP.  Big Pharma wanting protections and/or treaties reinforcing them goes back to the 1990s and Clinton Administration especially with this TPP.

Bill Daley who was Secretary of Commerce in the Clinton Administration was a board member for Abbott Laboratories basically lobbied against generics. Daley was Obama's chief of staff from 2011-2012 when the TPP started. Also a Stan McCoy who is the US Trade rep negotiator on proprietary information was an intellectual property lawyer/negotiator. Keep in mind "intellectual property" is the backdoor the agenda people are using to validate this treaty. 

From what is known so far Big Pharma will probably benefit the most from the Trans Pacific Partnership. Big Pharma will benefit because generic drugs will be harder to come by because of the intellectual property rights clauses in this treaty. By highly regulating "intellectual property" or proprietary rights the patents to generic drugs will be heavily regulated, unavailable or expensive to buy. The US is one of few countries that gives long term rights to a patent(20 years as of 2011). Apparently these 'intellectual property rights' are so coveted by Big Pharma they lobbied Senator Harry Reid to tell Chief of Staff Daley to tell negotiators make sure there are strong intellectual property rights in the treaty.

Abbott Labs during an HIV outbreak in Thailand refused to sell an HIV drug at a lower price or give access to a generic(keep in mind Daley was on Abbott board). The drug was Kaltera. Merck and Eli Lilly offered some HIV drugs but they wouldn't offer their most effective one. Thailand declared a health emergency and got cheaper generic drugs from India. Abbott got ticked and blacklisted Thailand by withdrawing a lot of their business. Similar scenario with Brazil.


Also keep in mind US Trade Rep Sanford McCoy the intellectual rights negotiator has an assistant from Eli Lilly. So basically the treaty is being negotiated by those with heavy ties to Big Pharma and corporate America.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...harma-trans-pacific-partnership_n_981973.html

http://www.flushthetpp.org/tell-ustr-stan-mccoy-to-stop-trading-away-lives-for-profits-in-the-tpp/

Keep in mind the key or back door here is the use of 'intellectual property rights' provisions. Proprietary information is the reason for some of the TPP internet regulations as well because by limiting file sharing, posting, downloading etc they can control a lot of information.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 14, 2015)

If the major pharmaceuticals are for it, I'm against it.


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## Debby (Feb 14, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> "Not Enough Info" ...that is what Senator Warren said too...
> 
> *Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) on Wednesday voiced her opposition to President Barack Obama’s top international trade nominee because of a secretive free trade agreement.
> 
> ...




Elizabeth Warren is 'warning' that public opposition would be significant?  Well isn't that ominous?


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## Warrigal (Feb 14, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> If the major pharmaceuticals are for it, I'm against it.



Based on their past performances, so am I.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2015)

Time to grovel. US sending envy to Japan to beg their approval for the Trans Pacific Treaty and Corporate America.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-appeals-japanese-business-help-push-trade-pact-091055277.html

To the citizens of Japan: DANGER-The Trans Pacific Treaty


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## QuickSilver (Feb 15, 2015)

So "We the People"  elect representatives to speak for us... BUT they aren't allowed to even see the details of something or debate it?  Something is REALY REALLY wrong with that picture.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So "We the People"  elect representatives to speak for us... BUT they aren't allowed to even see the details of something or debate it?  Something is REALY REALLY wrong with that picture.



There is something wrong with that picture. This is just another example of business as usual including the lobbying, conflict interest, greed, secrecy & politics. The sheeple don't want to worry about the details of this or most other treaties other than what the mainstream media shovels into their heads.

Must say when I see things like can't take notes or you need an appointment/go through their desired process on a non military/strategic treaty one must wonder.


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## rkunsaw (Feb 15, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So "We the People"  elect representatives to speak for us... BUT they aren't allowed to even see the details of something or debate it?  Something is REALY REALLY wrong with that picture.




Quote Nancy Pelosi on Obamacare, " We have to pass it so we'll know what's in it."

Yes, something is really wrong with that picture.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Quote Nancy Pelosi on Obamacare, " We have to pass it so we'll know what's in it."
> 
> Yes, something is really wrong with that picture.



I think that every time I think about this treaty. They'll claim they are too busy or have to delegate. Excuses. 

This is what happens with political favors because the treaty would not have gotten this far without them. This is not just Obama pushing this. It would be a pretty safe bet a lot of the provisions or clauses in the treaty started out as political favors much further down the line and got passed along up the chain. The lobbyist did their jobs and personal friends asked on behalf of their friends.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 15, 2015)

International trade treaties can and did supersede US law and court system. Several Canadian companies appealed to a NAFTA court or tribunal after they lost in the US court system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/18/us/review-of-us-rulings-by-nafta-tribunals-stirs-worries.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2002-03-31/the-highest-court-youve-never-heard-of

There have been  appeals to WTO OR World Trade Organization Courts.

http://www.topnews.in/wto-appellate-court-rejects-us-appeal-antidumping-2203336

It not just what could happen. It already has happened with international treaties. 

Side note. John Kerry now Secretary of State admitted they didn't think or foresee the use of the NAFTA tribunals when the treaty was passed( darn pesky details). So you have the Secretary of State who has influence over this treaty and direction admitting they didn't foresee the consequences of something that can actually happen.


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## Don M. (Feb 15, 2015)

I have been convinced, for some time, that the trend in the future will be away from "National" governments...and more towards a Global Government which is dedicated to serving the interests of the major Global Corporations.  These multi national trade agreements are designed to increase the power of the major corporations, and reduce the control any given nation may try to place on them.  We already see the foundations being laid via the Elite determining who will serve in government...via their lavish campaign donations.  Once in office, these politicians are duty bound to support the positions of these wealthy donors.  As this trend continues on a Global scale, national governments will effectively cease to represent the people, and become little more than a Rubber Stamp for the 1%.  

Between the global control by the Oligarchy, and the corruption of most nations political processes, the old movie "1984" is looking more and more like a Prophecy.


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## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2015)

This is the kind of thing that will happen after TPP is signed



> *Big Tobacco puts countries on trial as concerns over TTIP deals mount*
> 
> 
> *As Philip Morris sues Uruguay over its health warnings, the tiny country has found itself a test case for big business lawsuits that could hit the EU
> ...


You'll note that Australia is also in the firing line. Phillip Morris is attempting to stop Australia from mandating plain packaging of cigarettes using our FTA with China. So far they haven't had a win; plain packaging has been in for more than twelve months and sales of tobacco products have declined although the propaganda machine has claimed that they have increased. They will argue that black is white to protect their profits.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

I really wish I knew more about this..  I guess eventually we will..  But I suspect it will be too late.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I really wish I knew more about this..  I guess eventually we will..  But I suspect it will be too late.



Wouldn't it be fun to attend a big tobacco sales pitch on TV and cough uncontrollably till you were almost vomiting and when somewhat recovered say "sorry, 30 years of smoking here!"


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## WhatInThe (Feb 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I really wish I knew more about this..  I guess eventually we will..  But I suspect it will be too late.



I think progress is stalling. It's still might get through especially if they use the phrase "fast track". I think it can be stopped but will it?

Wiki Leaks has some copies or drafts of the actual treaty but the simplified version includes proprietary rights enforced with extreme regulation and penalty and that the treaty can supersede the host's country's court system. Senate approves or disapproves treaties so I guess the senate is where to start with a vote NO on the TPP. Or if enough other countries smell stink on poop perhaps they can be convinced to trash it.

O


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## Warrigal (Feb 16, 2015)

More on the TPP although it is short on detail. Understandable in the circumstances.
 It refers to "fast track" and current litigation that is a worrying sign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnC1mqyAXmw&feature=youtu.be

More on fast track here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yl6Y3ycscY


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 21, 2015)

They say it's sure to benefit only the 1%, large corporations and Wall St.  http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/21/trade-deals-boost-top-1-bust-rest/


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## QuickSilver (Feb 21, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> They say it's sure to benefit only the 1%, large corporations and Wall St.  http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/21/trade-deals-boost-top-1-bust-rest/




Is anyone surprised?


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## WhatInThe (Feb 21, 2015)

Commerce Committee headed by Paul Ryan still wants to fast track this thing.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/...gressional-input-on-controversial-trade-deal/

But before it can be fast tracked another bill known as Trade Promotion Authority or TPA which is basically the fast track powers must be passed. The TPA is legislation that should not be passed.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 21, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Commerce Committee headed by Paul Ryan still wants to fast track this thing.
> 
> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/...gressional-input-on-controversial-trade-deal/
> 
> But before it can be fast tracked another bill known as Trade Promotion Authority or TPA which is basically the fast track powers must be passed. The TPA is legislation that should not be passed.



Fast track by Paul Ryan who proposed the "voucher system" and elimination of Medicare which would be a disaster, I hope people wake up before these people are allowed to rape us all to benefit Corporations, Wall St., Banks, and themselves.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 22, 2015)

Just as with the vouchers they are looking for "the" solution to be fast tracking trade treaties. No one is saying you can't have a trade treaty or pass it fast with disclosure but to give someone blanket authority like fast tracking treaties is a bad idea as we see here.

Should add in the most recent weekly address Obama pushed for the TPA/trade promotion authority, not the Trans Pacific Partnership. Again the TPA is the really dangerous bill here right now. The TPA must be stopped no matter who pushes it.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...-pushes-for-trade-authority-in-weekly-address


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## WhatInThe (Mar 1, 2015)

*Danger tpa*

Tick Tock As soon as Ryan gets back from the Asia to promote the Trans Pacific Partnership-TPP  he wants to put the Trade Promotion Authority up for a vote. AGAIN, the TPA is THE danger here. 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/top-sen...-promotion-authority-1424467559?mod=asia_home

http://www.smartbrief.com/02/17/15/ryan-other-house-members-asia-boost-trade-talks#.VPQBOjw5DVI

The  legislation failed last year. Hopefully it will be the same.


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## WhatInThe (Apr 16, 2015)

It won't die. They're still at it including the finance committee headed by Orin Hatch.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/15/us-usa-trade-senate-idUSKBN0N622120150415

It has to pass because Japan said so.

A sticking point is aid to displaced US workers.


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## WhatInThe (May 23, 2015)

A horde of Republicon senators voted for fast track legislation on treaties right before a long holiday weekend. Bill still needs to get past a Democratic congress who mostly oppose the bill and treaty it's intended for.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...b6958e-00c7-11e5-8b6c-0dcce21e223d_story.html


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## AZ Jim (May 23, 2015)

I just wanna know what a "clusterfutch" is QS?????:bigwink:


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## WhatInThe (May 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I just wanna know what a "clusterfutch" is QS?????:bigwink:



My opinion says she is talking about a flock of sheep. And those same sheep(in this case senate Republicons) need to get the flock out of politics.


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## WhatInThe (May 24, 2015)

Speaker of the House bonehead ooops ment John Boehner promises to help push The Trade Promotion Authority(TPA) through the house.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/boehner-praises-trade-bill-passage_953464.html

The TPA now in the hands of a house loaded with traitorous Republicons and blindly loyal Demorats.


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## Davey Jones (May 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What can we do???  This blows my mind...  Don't Corporations hate Obama?  Doesn't Obama claim to be for the Middle Class...  This just isn't adding up.



These are the "change" that we voted him into office 2 TIMES.
If he could run for third term I'm sure he will succeed 
with more "changes".
Don't look at me I'm
  an Independent voter.


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## Davey Jones (May 24, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Speaker of the House bonehead ooops ment John Boehner promises to help push The Trade Promotion Authority(TPA) through the house.
> 
> http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/boehner-praises-trade-bill-passage_953464.html
> 
> The TPA now in the hands of a house loaded with traitorous Republicons and blindly loyal Demorats.



The Republicans have only had control of both houses for 5 months,the Democrats have had control for how long? and produce very little ,that's why they were voted OUT.


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## Don M. (May 24, 2015)

Some people still labor under the "illusion" that there are politicians in Washington who care about the Middle Class, and working people.  The reality is that most of them get the majority of their campaign finances from the corporations, the wealthy, and the special interests.  Therefore, it only follows that they will "follow the money" when it comes time to propose and vote on legislation.  This TPA is just another example of legislation that will mostly benefit the politicians benefactors, so it will very likely pass.


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## WhatInThe (May 26, 2015)

When Harry Reid starts citing the Logan Act you know this whole thing is a pile of stink as he takes a jab at Republicans approving it at the same time.

http://twitchy.com/2015/05/22/possi...rogress-as-harry-reid-speaks-out-against-tpa/


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## QuickSilver (May 26, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> The Republicans have only had control of both houses for 5 months,the Democrats have had control for how long? and produce very little ,that's why they were voted OUT.



Apparently you have not heard about that little thing called the filibuster..


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## Josiah (May 26, 2015)

Having admitted ignorance as an excuse for quite some time I have been ambivalent about this dispute between a President I've trusted and admired for nearly two terms and Senator Warren who I've also respected and admired. This weekend however, I've gotten off the fence and cast my lot with those opposing TPP just in time to once again be on the losing side.


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## QuickSilver (May 26, 2015)

I don't think there has ever been a trade deal where the American worker did not suffer.  This is why I simply do no understand why the President is so gung ho on it.


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## WhatInThe (May 27, 2015)

*Follow The Money!*

Follow The Money!

Article on some of the lobbying probably involved and as expected Big Pharma was one of the largest contributors. Also surprised to see some of the fence sitters cave in and vote for the bill at the last minute.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp

And since many Democrats are opposed to fast track I was surprised that 5 Democratic senators changed their mind or decided at the last minute to vote for the bill/authority.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 5, 2015)

Included in the TPP is a provision allowing a company to store records in a second or third party country.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2015/06/04/leaked-tisa-documents-reveal-privacy-threat/

Could be a threat because one doesn't know how secure data would be in a second or third party country. You can install all the computer software you want but if someone gets physical access to servers or even paper filing cabinets security is out the window. Europe has laws in which private data must be stored in the country of business. Storage of records in third party countries might make subpoenas harder to enforce if company records would ever be needed for court.

This provision could rubber stamp off shoring/out sourcing as well. It is also creepily putting the preliminary steps of globalization into writing.


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## Don M. (Jun 5, 2015)

I've been following the news on this TPP...what little our government is willing to tell us...and so far, I have Not seen Anything that is going to be of benefit to our workers and wages.  This is going to turn out to be just another Power and Money grab that helps Only the corporations and 1%'rs.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 12, 2015)

Now they are trying to "amend" the TPA bill which is fast track with things like worker displacement assistance which is not only more money and government bureaucracy but an admission that US employees will lose jobs with the TPP and other "trade" treaties. Big vote in house today June 12.

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/06/look-trade-votes-will-happen-today-house


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## QuickSilver (Jun 12, 2015)

Yeah.... I have been trying to follow it..   By the way... has ANYONE here called their Representative in the House and told them how you would like them to vote?   I called mine yesterday and was happy to learn that he was voting  NO!!   Elizabeth Warren has urged everyone to let their Congressmen know that this is a bad idea and that they should vote against it.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 12, 2015)

Another problem or hitch(literally) to this legislation. A second bill to help American workers displaced by trade treaties was resoundly defeated because over half the house anyway took it for what it was-horse trading for the TPA/fast track. But now the administration wants a revote. Talking heads are saying by next Tue, less than a week from now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...b6dce8-1073-11e5-a0dc-2b6f404ff5cf_story.html

Apparently they don't want amendments to the original bill? For appearance of clean legislation or across the board support?

This thing will not die. Let your friends, public and representatives that fast track or the TPA is a bad idea/bill as is a trade like the TPP among others. There is still time.


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## Don M. (Jun 12, 2015)

A big "sticking point" in this legislation seems to be the "Worker Assistance Package".  To me, this sounds like a Open Admission that passing this TPP will most certainly result in large numbers of lost American jobs.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 12, 2015)

Don M. said:


> A big "sticking point" in this legislation seems to be the "Worker Assistance Package".  To me, this sounds like a Open Admission that passing this TPP will most certainly result in large numbers of lost American jobs.



Exactly! And just like "The Patriot Act" using an emotional title they tried tacking on this US worker assistance hoping to guilt or shame into voting for it and thus fast track and the TPP. 

"How can one be against the US worker"-I can almost guarantee you a year or two down the road in a campaign commercial someone's "no" vote will used against them with the opposition claiming they voted against the American worker.

And yes, it is absolutely an admission US workers will be displaced.


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## QuickSilver (Jun 12, 2015)

So here's how I understand it..  Last month the Senate passed 3 bills.  One was fast track.. one was the TAA.. and one was some other thing that I don't remember..  ANYWAY...  all three bills MUST be passed by the House as a group.. or NONE of them pass.   SO.. today..  Fast track passed by a very narrow margin.  The other thing passed.. HOWEVER the TAA failed 300+votes to 100+ votes..  therefore.. for now fast track is derailed...  Despite the Prez on Capital Hill twisting arms.. 

NOW... on Monday or Tuesday.. Boehner is going to try one more time to get the TAA passed..  But Democrats are really pissed at Obama for his arm twisting..  It's really hard to believe that enough will switch their vote in order to pass TAA  so fast track can go back to the Senate..  

This is really interesting..  MASSIVE Corporate lobbying... Presidential support... Republican Support.. just ran into one pretty immovable object..  Grass Roots Democracy!!!    It's a beautiful thing.

CALL your Representative and TELL them to hold the line!!


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## WhatInThe (Jun 13, 2015)

Some of the machinations to keep fast track/TPA and TPP alive with the TAA

http://www.docudharma.com/diary/387...-other-trade-bills-will-cut-medicare-and-more

Speculation has it that the TAA or displaced worker assistance would've been paid for by Medicare cuts and that's why the Democrats didn't vote for it. I don't think so shallow not that any politician's vote can't be bought.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 25, 2015)

Thanks to fast track/TPA the TPP is that much closer to coming to fruition. But it still can be defeated with nea votes with no amendments or changes. The only good news is that the details will come out. But those pesky little things like details/words don't seem to matter anymore.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...ific-Partnership-is-no-sure-deal?detail=hide#

It will be interesting to see how well our so called senate representatives react to being challenged on the details.


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## WhatInThe (Jun 28, 2015)

Some in Australia not in favor of the TPP

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/com...ip-economic-folly-for-us-20150628-ghycvm.html

Apparently another trade treaty that involved the US didn't workout so well. AUSFTA


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## WhatInThe (Jul 6, 2015)

I will not let this fade. The TPP is bad for America. The TPP is not a sure thing nor has it been voted on yet. The TPA or fast track was passed, TPP was NOT.

Just a reminder of some of the reasons the TPP is not good for America and other nations.

http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/tpp-obamas-free-not-fair-secret-trade-agreement


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## WhatInThe (Jul 11, 2015)

*Canada a stick in the mud?*

Uh-oh, Trouble in paradise. Canada might be excluded from the TPP if they don't open some agriculture markets. Canada very protective of farmers against import markets.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/uscanada-dairy-spat-sours-trade-talksupdate-20150710-00424

Senator Paul Ryan said Canada has "to step it up" when it comes to agriculture and dairy markets.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 20, 2015)

The Australians are saying the TPP will be a done deal sometime in August. That's the agreement but not approval in the US and hopefully other countries.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...next-month-australia/articleshow/48000261.cms

One month to let your representatives know your opinion. Be aware of procedural politics on this as well including sneaky or surprise votes or revotes shortly there after.

Just a reminder of the downsides of the TPP.

http://news.bitofnews.com/the-worst...-to-know-about-the-trans-pacific-partnership/


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## WhatInThe (Jul 26, 2015)

*ALERT. Talks near end*

Get ready! TPP talks could finish up in Hawaii this week.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/26/trade-tpp-idUSL1N1041U620150726

DANGER: Corporate America and a lame duck administration wanting to get their agenda through anyway possible.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 29, 2015)

350 MILLION dollars was spent on lobbying for the TPP in the US in ONE year alone.

http://www.kitguru.net/channel/jon-...million-on-lobbying-for-tpp-in-the-last-year/


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## WhatInThe (Aug 1, 2015)

NO deal for now.

http://news.yahoo.com/no-final-deal-pacific-trade-talks-negotiators-033653500.html

Australia one of the holdouts on sugar and dairy.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...partnership-deal/story-fnu2pycd-1227465915303


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## WhatInThe (Aug 14, 2015)

Apparently New Zealenders are so against the TPP the US Consulate has asked US citizens to stay away from anti TPP protests.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/281375/us-warns-citizens-not-to-attend-akl-tpp-rally


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## WhatInThe (Oct 5, 2015)

*Danger  alert*

ALERT ALERT ALERT 

It's back, the fine print is finished and negotiators approved the deal.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/newsy/the-transpacific-partnership-is-almost-complete

Remember 'fast track' is in play it still must get a vote but there is no or limited debate and these deals are not open to amendments.

Short version every treaty like this the US Citizen loses some rights including the right to sue in the US court system with complaints against many of these participating companies & countries going to arbitrators or boards. International standards and regulations start superceding US or domestic standards & law in any participating country. 

DANGER, there is still limited time to halt this and other "trade" deals


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## Don M. (Oct 5, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> ALERT ALERT ALERT
> 
> Yup...One step closer to yet another "treaty" that insures that even more American jobs will be lost, and the profits of the Multi-National Corporations will be increased.  But, then, why should we be surprised....after all, these same greedy corporations are the ones who "own" most of our politicians...on both sides of the aisle.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

Apparently when this idea was mooted, the US was not included but asked to join in.
I reckon that out of all of the 12 countries involved, America will not come out of it worse than the others.

Foe what it's worth, Australians are very apprehensive about this treaty too, and about the deal we have struck with China.


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

I hope Canada is excluded. Many thanks to the poster that referred to my beloved country as paradise. So kind.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

The only Pacific rim country not included is China, so Canada is in unless it rejects the deal in the parliament.
Do you think they will do that?


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## BobF (Oct 5, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> ALERT ALERT ALERT
> 
> It's back, the fine print is finished and negotiators approved the deal.
> 
> ...



If these deals can take away our legal and Constitutional rights, then why are we even discussing them?   There should always be debates in our Congress before we accept anything.


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

Warri, hard to say what will happen. We go to the polls October 19th. Federal election. Hopefully the conservatives will be defeated. That may change the ball game.


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

The Australian government's perspective on the TPP.



> *Trans-Pacific Partnership: Ministers and negotiators lock in major TPP trade deal, Government hails 'giant foundation stone' for Australia*
> 
> By political reporters James Glenday and Anna Henderson
> Updated      56 minutes agoTue 6 Oct 2015, 12:47pm
> ...


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## WhatInThe (Oct 5, 2015)

BobF said:


> If these deals can take away our legal and Constitutional rights, then why are we even discussing them?   There should always be debates in our Congress before we accept anything.



That was "Fast Track" which is exactly what it means, fast track treaties through the legislature. Fast Track was passed around the beginning of summer. Supposed to be a yea or nea on the treaty, no amendments or debate required. Similar to what's happening with Iran deal.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/05/22/senate-trade-vote/27797579/


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## Warrigal (Oct 5, 2015)

The TPP from the Canadian perspective



> October 5, 2015
> *What Canadians should know about the TPP deal*
> 
> By         Monique Muise
> ...


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2015)

Thank you Warri.


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## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2015)

The TPP through New Zealand eyes



> *No increased medicine costs under TPPA*
> 
> JO MOIR AND LAURA MCQUILLAN
> October 6 2015
> ...



Still looking for the US perspective. Anyone got a good link?


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## WhatInThe (Oct 6, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> The TPP through New Zealand eyes
> 
> 
> 
> Still looking for the US perspective. Anyone got a good link?




Which one? There are a lot of links earlier in the thread(lazy right now). The big thing I think with most countries is many fear tariff removal which could lead to cheap imports among other things-jobs. Most fear what the patent clauses will do for things like generic drugs. Also "controls" or proprietary clauses on the internet that favor big business a huge chunk of which is Big Pharma. Many fear giving up sovereignty because disputes go to a treaty board instead of the courts. Many say it weakens environmental laws. Some say the VW scandal is an example of what can happen with international trade/environmental standards.

I did glance this new article

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/10/06/us-trade-tpp-idINKCN0RZ0ZV20151006


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## Warrigal (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks WhatInThe, that's what I was looking for - something written after the deal became public. 
Prior to that the talk was mostly speculative.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 6, 2015)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks WhatInThe, that's what I was looking for - something written after the deal became public.
> Prior to that the talk was mostly speculative.



Unfortunately many earlier leaks and stories are panning out to be true. Bernie Sanders a staunch Democrat, party of the president said he will go all out to stop it.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 5, 2015)

It's officially here/released for debate & vote.

http://www.examiner.com/article/oba...l-text-of-the-once-secret-tpp-free-trade-deal

At least 2,000 pages long. Tell me you couldn't hide fine gotcha print in a couple thousand pages.


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## Don M. (Nov 5, 2015)

If this is like NAFTA, or any of the other "FTA's" our politicians pass, it will probably just result in even more good jobs going offshore.  About the Only one's who will see any benefits are the Special Interests and multi-national corporations that pushed it through.  I guess the 1% won't be happy until they have 99% of the wealth.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 7, 2015)

Don M. said:


> If this is like NAFTA, or any of the other "FTA's" our politicians pass, it will probably just result in even more good jobs going offshore.  About the Only one's who will see any benefits are the Special Interests and multi-national corporations that pushed it through.  I guess the 1% won't be happy until they have 99% of the wealth.



Some have called it an outsourcing deal.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/06/1445866/-TPP-Text-Corporations-Win-Working-People-Lose

As far as jobs content requirements like 'assembled in' , 'from parts made in' make the country of origin harder to pin down which makes outsourcing or subcontracting of one product like cars more likely.

TPP stipulations are now as such that when a US agency puts out work for bid other countries must be included in the bidding process.


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## Don M. (Nov 7, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Some have called it an outsourcing deal.
> 
> The one that made me mad was the recent California project to rebuild the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge.  This is a 7 billion dollar project, and California is buying the steel from China.  Sure, they saved some money, because the Chinese workers only make $12 a day...but had they used American steel, that money would have circulated throughout our economy, rather than the Chinese economy.  This is another case of US money going overseas needlessly.
> 
> ...


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## imp (Nov 7, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What bothers me so much is that Obama is all gung ho for it... wants it fast tracked... but won't tell us a darn thing...oh.. except how wonderful it will be.   I simply don't understand what he is doing.. * I've trusted him... until now*..



Government is almost always trusted. Until it is too late.   imp

Edit: This thread is now 9 months old. It  has provided much enlightenment by way of widening the angle between "party blinders". It has even mentioned that BOTH parties have many members opposed to what is being so sneakily done. 

The cat only paws into the fishbowl when no one is looking.

I have refused to lend my trust to any party for years. Unpatriotic, you say? Or is it really most-patriotic, in view of the malingering indecency blanketed over the American citizen for a long time now. I DO love my Country, but the country, the land, is blind to the usurpation. Trust the Country's leaders?  Not so much.


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## Don M. (Nov 7, 2015)

imp said:


> Government is almost always trusted. Until it is too late.   imp
> 
> There is almost Always a "Catch" to anything that comes from Washington.  What looks good today, invariably winds up creating more problems months or years down the road.  There is a Very Good reason why many people trust used car salesmen more than politicians.
> 
> I think it was Lenin who said, many years ago...."If you tell a lie often enough, you can get the majority of people to believe it".


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## Misty (Nov 9, 2015)

Had posted twice by mistake


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## Misty (Nov 9, 2015)

https://twitter.com/SenatorSessions/status/663828771959607296




  

                 Photo of 5,554pg TPP on Jeff Sessions’ desk. B/C of Fast-Track, it can’t be filibustered, amended or given a treaty vote.
Not only is the legislation filled with 2 million words, it measures almost 3 feet high and weighs 100 pounds.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 10, 2015)

Misty said:


> Photo of 5,554pg TPP on Jeff Sessions’ desk. B/C of Fast-Track, it can’t be filibustered, amended or given a treaty vote.
> Not only is the legislation filled with 2 million words, it measures almost 3 feet high and weighs 100 pounds.



Throw in side deals with or between various countries a lot of that goes out the window. What a waste. Poor tree.

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/11/05/tpp-text-includes-canada-side-deal-with-u-s-on-illicit-trade/

2 dozen letters, amendments or stipulations not in the original treaty.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canada-side-deals-with-us-emerge-with-tpp/ar-BBmSb0j


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## Misty (Nov 10, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Throw in side deals with or between various countries a lot of that goes out the window. What a waste. Poor tree.
> 
> http://ipolitics.ca/2015/11/05/tpp-text-includes-canada-side-deal-with-u-s-on-illicit-trade/
> 
> ...



Interesting articles, WhatInThe...thanks for sharing. The msn article states that the U.S. and Canada pledge to share information between their respective custom agencies....too bad they don't share information about the TPP with the citizens, instead of all the secrecy involved in the deal.


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## Don M. (Nov 10, 2015)

AND....in this mountain of paperwork, there is probably little or nothing that will prove to be of benefit to the Average American Worker....in reality, it will probably put even more downward pressure on the wages of the workers, and will most likely result in the loss of even more good jobs here.  But...the corporations, and the 1%'rs will have yet another avenue to fatten their wallets.


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