# Do you have a a long term health care policy?



## charlotta (Feb 24, 2015)

I invested in  a policy for my later years (the time may be here, and I'm in denial).  Has anyone else do?  If so, is 
there anyone out there that is using it now?


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## Josiah (Feb 24, 2015)

About 10 years ago both my wife and I applied for LTC policies from MetLife. I was turned down, but my wife got the insurance. That policy has been paying my wife's $200/day nursing home bill for almost a year now and will continue for the next three years. Surprising to me was the fact that once the claim for my wife's disability was accepted I no longer had to continue paying the premiums. Needless to say this policy has been the best investment ever.


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## Bullie76 (Feb 25, 2015)

I think they are a great product for married couples. Can you imagine if one of the two has a stroke and needs LTC for many years? Assets can be depleted in a hurry. Im single and plan to self insure. Stats show the average nursing home stay is just under 3 years. I have enough assets to last way past that even factoring in inflation. Can't see the need for it in my situation.


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## Don M. (Feb 25, 2015)

charlotta said:


> I invested in  a policy for my later years (the time may be here, and I'm in denial).  Has anyone else do?  If so, is
> there anyone out there that is using it now?



We took out a policy with Bankers Life and Casualty, perhaps 20 years ago.  We watched our parents reach into their 90's, and the issues they had to contend with, so we checked around and settled on this policy.  Every year, it's value increases up to the point where in another few years we will be covered up to a Million Dollars each...to be spent on whatever services we might require.  Personally, I hope we have little need for it...and the way our luck runs, if we have plans in place, we seldom need them.  However, every time I try to avoid planning ahead, it seems to come back to bite me....I hope this is money down the drain, but given the longevity in our family, we will probably need it.


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## LogicsHere (Feb 25, 2015)

Every time I went to purchase a policy, some family related issue came up that wiped out the money. Now it would cost me $5000 a year.  If I live to 99 that's $150,000.  My annuities will cover. Have no one I'd want to leave it to anyway.


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## Lon (Feb 25, 2015)

I was offered and accepted as part of a retirement package a LTC policy 25 years ago. Hope I never need it.


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## Sunny (Feb 28, 2015)

We bought one of those policies when we were relatively young, so the premiums were cheap. Turned out to be a good investment. We used it for home health assistance for my late husband when he needed it, and after his death, I didn't have to pay any more premiums, but am fully covered. Given the cost for health care in this country, even home assistance, it's a good safety net, even if it only pays part of the cost.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 28, 2015)

Don't have it, can't afford it, hope we never need it!


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## Don M. (Feb 28, 2015)

Sunny said:


> We bought one of those policies when we were relatively young, so the premiums were cheap. Turned out to be a good investment. We used it for home health assistance for my late husband when he needed it, and after his death, I didn't have to pay any more premiums, but am fully covered. Given the cost for health care in this country, even home assistance, it's a good safety net, even if it only pays part of the cost.



Like any "insurance", it's only good if/when you need it...but Not having it can make a lot of difference in a person's elder years.  My old folks were spending $60K a year for in home care so they wouldn't have to face going to some old folks home, and they wound up taking out a reverse mortgage to cover the care costs.  That pretty well ate up their savings and home equity, but it was worth it to allow them to live out their final days in a familiar surrounding.  Our premiums are reasonable, and the State gives a deduction on the taxes for the premiums.  Like you, we got into it in our mid 40's, so the costs are quite moderate...but such a policy will be invaluable in coming years if we face the same longevity issues as our parents.


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## Lethe200 (Jul 5, 2015)

Yes, purchased when we were in our late 40's. Policies are offered thru our state pension fund that is aggressive at guarding policyholder rights. If a carrier wants to leave the market (it's happened twice in 16 yrs) they are not allowed to until a replacement insurer is found to take over the book of business.

Having worked in insurance I was pretty sure premiums for LTCi were set much too low and would rise in the future. Classwide premium increases are allowed, with options to reduce coverage in various ways to keep premiums same or lower. We budgeted for future increases and fortunately our income has risen to allow us the luxury of keeping our current policies in situ. It is not cheap insurance; we have "Rolls Royce" plans and intend to keep them.

Our CFP firm congratulates us every time we meet for being so foresighted, LOL. They have one long-time client who has run through very substantial assets paying for nursing care and was forced to move into a Medicaid facility. Our CFP told us, "It's hard to even bring myself to visit him now. He was in a great facility nearby. But when the money ran out, he had to leave. The (new) place is just awful. Dreary, tiny shared room, indifferent staff. But he's stuck. My other two clients who are in nursing homes had LTCi. They're in good places and their assets are intact. So keep your policies as long as you can!"

The sad thing is, the pension fund allowed us to offer our family the chance to buy policies too. The premiums are market-priced, but having the weight of the country's biggest pension fund gives policyholders a significant "clout" that ordinary purchasers of LTCi don't have. We don't have to worry about an insurer going "belly up" on us or refusing to pay a legitimate claim. There's a consumer advocate rep assigned specifically to help with any issues we might have.

So we offered, but all of them turned us down.

In the past 16 yrs we have seen our various family members suffer a total of three heart attacks (two fatal), two strokes (one fatal), seven cases of hypertension, and two cases of severe osteoporosis.

My MIL went into a full-service CCRC in 2013. In Asst. Lvg. with only minimal help for medication and weekly bathing, she paid almost $5K/month. Had she gone into Memory Care or Skilled Care (nursing) units, the cost would be slightly over $8K/monthly - $98,000 per year!

And every year, those costs rise. We investigated eight different senior facilities for MIL and every one of them told us that statewide, facilities raise their rates every July without fail. Increases run 3-5%/yrly.

Our LTCi policies have a 5% compounded increase option. Currently each one pays $103K/yr for nursing care, and 50% of that for Asst. Lvg. We could move to a wonderful nearby CCRC we've been eyeing. Even if you live independently, the units are classified as AL because it's easier for the facility to have consistent paperwork and registration. They provide all meals, housekeeping, laundry, and various social activities, including a full gym and rooftop garden. So our policies will pay most of the cost for the facility even though we don't currently need any assistance.

Friends/family laughed at us for buying LTCi so young. But now that we're all in our 60's and older, every one of them has privately confessed to us they are envious that we were "smart enough" to have planned ahead.


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## Leann (Apr 25, 2019)

Reading through older posts.

I took out a long-term care policy about two years ago. I should have done it earlier when the premiums would have been more reasonable. I don't want or expect my family to have to care for me if/when I get to the point that I can't take care of myself thus the reason for the policy.


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## mathjak107 (Apr 25, 2019)

We have a New York State partnership plan for long term care .... not only does it give us 3 years coverage but after the insurance is up it has Medicaid pick up the tab ..we have no look back , no spend down , no income limit for the stay at home spouse


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## wvnewbie (Apr 25, 2019)

Yes.... I have an LTC policy.  Best advice I get is to keep paying the premiums as long as I am able to do so.  Not great; but, if/when needed I hope it will cover my beer and cigarettes.


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## Old Dummy (Apr 30, 2019)

Bullie76 said:


> I think they are a great product for married couples. Can you imagine if one of the two has a stroke and needs LTC for many years? Assets can be depleted in a hurry. Im single and plan to self insure. Stats show the average nursing home stay is just under 3 years. I have enough assets to last way past that even factoring in inflation. Can't see the need for it in my situation.



That's where I'm at. I tried to get it at around 56-58 but was turned down by two companies. As I have no offspring and don't care if I die broke, I will spend my own assets which at this point (I'm pushing 69 but still working and still contributing) will last for several years of nursing home care.


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## Aunt Bea (May 1, 2019)

I don't have a long term care policy.

I will use my savings to provide for my care.

I arrived with nothing and I will leave with nothing.


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## mathjak107 (May 1, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't have a long term care policy.
> 
> I will use my savings to provide for my care.
> 
> I arrived with nothing and I will leave with nothing.




as long as you don't have a spouse to worry about self insuring is ok ... just be prepaired to have medicaid step in if you fall short ...when you have a spouse it is a whole different game


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## JimW (May 1, 2019)

Does anyone have any advice as to what age is the best to purchase a LTC policy without paying too much in premiums years before we would ever use it? Wife and I are both 55 and I think if we purchased a LTC policy now, we may end up paying more even though premiums would be less now because it would more than likely be around 25 years before we would ever use it. Is there a sweet spot where the higher price in premiums is worth the wait?

Any advice as to which policies are best?


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## Don M. (May 1, 2019)

We took our policy out when we were in our mid 40's.  The longer you wait, the higher the premiums will be.  I'm hoping that we never need to use it, and this will just be money down the drain, but should we become incapacitated in our later years, at least we won't have to be sent off to some marginal State run care, or become a burden to the kids.  After looking at policies from several different companies, we settled on a plan from Bankers Life.


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## mathjak107 (May 2, 2019)

JimW said:


> Does anyone have any advice as to what age is the best to purchase a LTC policy without paying too much in premiums years before we would ever use it? Wife and I are both 55 and I think if we purchased a LTC policy now, we may end up paying more even though premiums would be less now because it would more than likely be around 25 years before we would ever use it. Is there a sweet spot where the higher price in premiums is worth the wait?
> 
> Any advice as to which policies are best?


A policy is priced so you pay in about 1 years care in future dollars by the time you reach the sweet spot in your 80’s ... regardless when you start it works out about the same you just pay less if you start earlier ..

the longer you wait the more you risk having things go wrong that either get you surcharged or eliminated .... I think of the premium as I do my auto , life and home insurance ... each year I am covered for the remote chance something happens .

the biggest wake up call was when my 55 year old co worker was painting , fell off the ladder and broke his hip and wrist ...during surgery he had a paralyzing stroke ... it devastated his family financially.. he is permanently in an snf


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## JimW (May 3, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> A policy is priced so you pay in about 1 years care in future dollars by the time you reach the sweet spot in your 80’s ... regardless when you start it works out about the same you just pay less if you start earlier ..
> 
> the longer you wait the more you risk having things go wrong that either get you surcharged or eliminated .... I think of the premium as I do my auto , life and home insurance ... each year I am covered for the remote chance something happens .
> 
> the biggest wake up call was when my 55 year old co worker was painting , fell off the ladder and broke his hip and wrist ...during surgery he had a paralyzing stroke ... it devastated his family financially.. he is permanently in an snf



Thanks Mathjak, appreciate the info.


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## JimW (May 8, 2019)

I'm curious of the types of coverage folks have in their LTC policies. How much per day are you covered for and for how long? How much do you pay per month? There are a few different choices in the daily amounts and time period of coverage, but what are the most common?


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## StarSong (May 8, 2019)

JimW said:


> I'm curious of the types of coverage folks have in their LTC policies. How much per day are you covered for and for how long? How much do you pay per month? There are a few different choices in the daily amounts and time period of coverage, but what are the most common?



I was wondering the same thing, Jim.  Am hoping people will be willing to share some details.


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## Lethe200 (May 8, 2019)

Sadly, it's impossible to buy the policies we have had for 20 yrs. It's why the premiums have gone up so drastically (which we expected and can afford); the insurer would love for us to reduce coverage, LOL. Ours are *unlimited benefit period* plus our compounded inflation rate of 5% is higher than most companies give nowadays.

Rather than looking at other people's policies, I'd suggest you talk to an LTCi agent - e.g., someone who specializes in this insurance, NOT your usual homeowners/auto guy who will probably know nothing about the "fine print". Just realize sooner is better than later when buying LTCi - if you are not in really, really good health/weight and/or under age 60, expect to be rated. Underwriting is VERY "tight" on LTC and LT-disability policies.

The amount of daily benefit is up to you. I would suggest a minimum of:

- at least $150/day on a partnership policy, payable 100% on home healthcare as well as nursing home. That is $54,750/yr tax free - no small sum over time.

- standard 3 month exclusion. That means you are self-insured for those 3 months. However, if Medicare covers your stay, then it's not a big deal. Also, if you go into a convalescent facility for ANY reason, you can and should notify your LTCi carrier. You will be credited those days as part of your 3 month exclusion period - this period is usually (_check this to be sure_) a *cumulative* # of days. So if you go in for 2 weeks in year 2021 and 1 week in year 2023, those three weeks should be counted towards your overall exclusive period.

- Get the longest benefit period you can find. Stop thinking about saving a few $$$ and realize *this impacts your life once you can no longer manage on your own. *Our CFP has a client who suffered a stroke. He is _compos mentis _but can no longer live alone. The man was able to live in a very nice facility until his $$$$ ran out, and then 14 yrs later had to move to a Medicaid facility. Where we live, such facilities are literally 'bottom of the barrel'. I wouldn't want to live in such a place and neither will you. Don't assume you will be senile and "not notice." I can assure you even people with dementia notice the smell of urine-soaked walls and starchy, tasteless food.

- Last and most important: get the highest *compounded **inflation rider* you can find. Inflation historically runs 3% annually and healthcare costs always increase faster than the CPI. We bought the cheapest daily benefit policies offered, but with a 5%/yr compounded inflation rate over 20 yrs, each policy currently pays $120K+/yr. Obviously, receiving that money tax-free for an unlimited period is an extremely comforting backstop for our finances.

HTH.


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## StarSong (May 8, 2019)

I found a LTC price calculator on the Mutual of Omaha website.   https://www.mutualofomaha.com/long-term-care-insurance/calculator

View attachment 65332


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## mathjak107 (May 8, 2019)

My advice is look in to state partnership plans


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

Lethe200 said:


> Sadly, it's impossible to buy the policies we have had for 20 yrs. It's why the premiums have gone up so drastically (which we expected and can afford); the insurer would love for us to reduce coverage, LOL. Ours are *unlimited benefit period* plus our compounded inflation rate of 5% is higher than most companies give nowadays.
> 
> Rather than looking at other people's policies, I'd suggest you talk to an LTCi agent - e.g., someone who specializes in this insurance, NOT your usual homeowners/auto guy who will probably know nothing about the "fine print". Just realize sooner is better than later when buying LTCi - if you are not in really, really good health/weight and/or under age 60, expect to be rated. Underwriting is VERY "tight" on LTC and LT-disability policies.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the information Lethe200, much appreciated.


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I found a LTC price calculator on the Mutual of Omaha website.   https://www.mutualofomaha.com/long-term-care-insurance/calculator
> 
> View attachment 65332



Thanks Star. I found one here as well: https://ltcfeds.com/ltcWeb/do/assessing_your_needs/ratecalcOut


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

Sorry, double post.


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## treeguy64 (May 9, 2019)

Sounds like some of you actually have good LTC policies. Great! I checked them out, twenty years ago, and, in reading the fine print, found them sorely lacking. I opted to rely on my own resources, being well aware of potential costs.


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## mathjak107 (May 9, 2019)

anyone with a spouse  who may end up being the stay at home spouse , has to seriously think about what those words " i will self insure , really entails and means ....


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> My advice is look in to state partnership plans



My great state of Mass is one of a few states that doesn't offer this option as of yet. Doesn't surprise me at all.


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## mathjak107 (May 9, 2019)

JimW said:


> My great state of Mass is one of a few states that doesn't offer this option as of yet. Doesn't surprise me at all.


 we are in ny ... ny and one other state are the only two that offer 100% asset protection when you take plan and the insurance runs out ...every  other partnership plan is a dollar for a dollar .

i see Massachusetts offers partnership plans too

https://www.seniorplanning.org/long-term-care-medicaid-eligibility/massachusetts/


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## StarSong (May 9, 2019)

I looked up the CA partnership plan.  To qualify, the minimum insurance purchase provides $180 per day for 365 days.  

Advantages and disadvantages to buying LTC this way: 
*
How Do I Benefit from Partnership?
*
_A California Long Term Care Partnership policy sets up a pre-defined  amount of asset protection for the purposes of qualifying for Medi-Cal  in the future.  For example, you could buy a policy today that will  provide a Long Term Care benefit of $500,000 when you are 75 years old.   Once that policy’s benefits are exhausted, the Medi-Cal program would  disregard the same amount, or $500,000 of your assets when considering  your eligibility for state assistance to pay for care.
In addition to the monetary savings that come with Partnership plans,  there is an additional regulatory authority that oversees the  administration of LTC policies.  What this means for you as a consumer  is that your LTC policy may be less prone to rate increases because of  the extra layer of authority at the state level.

In addition to the monetary savings that come with Partnership plans,  there is an additional regulatory authority that oversees the  administration of LTC policies.  What this means for you as a consumer  is that your LTC policy may be less prone to rate increases because of  the extra layer of authority at the state level.

Finally, Partnership policies come with a provision that requires enhanced care coordination. This insurance company-paid benefit provides access to caregiver  resources that you may not find independently or even included with  non-Partnership policies.  This benefit alone is one reason some  Californians purchase Partnership policies rather than rolling the dice  and self insuring.
_
*What’s the Downside?
*
_The downside to Partnership policies is twofold in California:
_
_1) Because you must buy 5% Compound inflation protection (at age 65  and below, where most buyers are age wise) you have to buy an expensive  rider that is often more than is desired.
_
_2) The number of companies that participate in California’s Partnership policy is very limited.  Less competition may lead to higher  premiums.  Non-partnership plans have more companies offering coverage  and hence you may find a better deal for the core coverage.
_


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> we are in ny ... ny and one other state are the only two that offer 100% asset protection when you take plan and the insurance runs out ...every  other partnership plan is a dollar for a dollar .
> 
> i see Massachusetts offers partnership plans too
> 
> https://www.seniorplanning.org/long-term-care-medicaid-eligibility/massachusetts/



Unfortunately that Mass Medicaid Plan you linked to is for low income folks that qualify for the Mass Health Program and the applicant must be 65 or older.



> [h=3]Eligibility:[/h] 1. Residency and Citizenship – the applicant must  be a Massachusetts resident and be a U.S. citizen or have proper  immigration status.  *2. Age/Disability – the applicant must be age 65 or  older, or blind, or disabled.* The applicant must meet certain medical  requirements consistent with the level of care requested. *3. Income Limitations – if single, the applicant’s income (wages,  Social Security benefits, pensions, veteran’s benefits, annuities, SSI  payments, IRAs, etc.) must be less than $1,025 per month. If married,  the income limitation increases to $1,374.*


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## mathjak107 (May 9, 2019)

note the very bottom ...  *Massachusetts long term care insurance partnership:*

This is a program between the state and private insurance companies. Partnership policies protect assets by matching dollar for dollar what policy holders pay into their policies. For example, if you bought a Partnership Policy with a maximum benefit payout of $155,000 then you are able to protect $155,000 of your assets. For married couples each spouse needs to purchase their own policy. Once the $155,000 worth of long term care coverage is used, you may apply for Medicaid with $155,000 worth of assets exempted.

so if you spend 250k on care and have a plan that pays out up to 250k , then 250k in assets is protected if you reach a point medicaid is needed .


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## JimW (May 9, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> note the very bottom ...  *Massachusetts long term care insurance partnership:*
> 
> This is a program between the state and private insurance companies. Partnership policies protect assets by matching dollar for dollar what policy holders pay into their policies. For example, if you bought a Partnership Policy with a maximum benefit payout of $155,000 then you are able to protect $155,000 of your assets. For married couples each spouse needs to purchase their own policy. Once the $155,000 worth of long term care coverage is used, you may apply for Medicaid with $155,000 worth of assets exempted.
> 
> so if you spend 250k on care and have a plan that pays out up to 250k , then 250k in assets is protected if you reach a point medicaid is needed .



Okay thanks.


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## Ruthanne (May 9, 2019)

No, I don't.  I don't expect to live to be 100 but also don't have the funds for one of those policies.


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## mathjak107 (May 9, 2019)

All I know is my dad had a paralyzing stroke in his 60’s and spent 6 years in a home before he died devastating the family.

last I looked 60’s are decades under 100


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