# Non believers



## Ina (Aug 26, 2014)

Why do so many people who say they don't believe in any religion pray when thing go wrong? I'm a non believer, but when my son's were dying I too found myself praying.:dunno:


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## Meanderer (Aug 26, 2014)

Its not that people don't believe in anything, it's that they believe in everything.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 26, 2014)

I was raised Catholic, and although I don't go to church and am not involved with any organized religions, I think that there may be some kind of supreme being when I look at the beauty of nature, etc.  I know personally, I've been conditioned to pray in times of trouble, and will mentally think some thoughts that are not able to be defined as actual "prayer" by most people.  I think we all may look to a higher power in times of distress, even if we're not "religious" in description.


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## Geezerette (Aug 26, 2014)

I was raised catholic too, haven't "practiced" in many years, but I believe in sending out positive thoughts which I feel have "prayerful" aspects. Has become kind of a private meditative ritual at the end of the day.


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## Warrigal (Aug 26, 2014)

When my father died suddenly I was an atheist and just 25 years old. I could not/would not pray even though I was in so much pain. After the funeral I planted a tree in my backyard in his memory and from that tree's growth I drew comfort and some pleasure but I remained in pain for years.

Then my sister's first baby was stillborn. I had two healthy children and all I could do was stand mutely by her bed. I had nothing to offer. Again I was in pain and no use to anyone. I was empty. I could not pray. I could  find no words of consolation.

She fell pregnant again and this time her baby was born at just 28 weeks, but alive. As I watched her breathing in her humicrib I was terribly afraid for her life but I could not pray. I crossed all the fingers of both hands and through gritted teeth I muttered "Hang in there, kid". That was the best I could do. Also at this time I learned that students from the local catholic girls' school were praying for her, and while I thought this was basically nonsensical, I was pleased to hear it. I felt calmer.

My niece lived although she stopped breathing three times. Paradoxically I later came to teach at that same catholic school, still a vociferous atheist. I should never have got the job, but I did. Eighteen months later I was no longer an atheist and I opened up to a whole new dimension of being.

I still think prayer is rather absurd for all sorts of reasons but I know that it helps. That's good enough for me.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 26, 2014)

Geezerette, sending out positive thoughts is a good way of putting it.  Warri, I'm very sorry to hear about your father and your sister's baby, my sincere condolences. :rose: Thanks for sharing your story.


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## Warrigal (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks Seabreeze but it was a long time ago. We are healed by now, although my sister still carries a scar in her heart for her first baby. There was not even a funeral service. He was cremated at the hospital. He died at 30 weeks of gestation and according to the law, was never alive. He had no name but my sister has never forgotten him.


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## SeaBreeze (Aug 26, 2014)

My heart goes out to your sister Warrigal, I can't even begin to imagine the feelings of loss that she has endured.


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## Kitties (Aug 26, 2014)

Just because someone doesn't believe in or adhere to a specific religion doesn't mean they don't believe in a higher power or pray.

I pray sometimes. It can't hurt.


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## Falcon (Aug 26, 2014)

When my wife took ill,  I prayed and prayed for her not to die, but she died anyway in the 7th day of her malady.

I haven't prayed to anybody or anything since. Sure didn't work for me. I don't believe in ANY god now.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

What makes you think that you have the power of life or death?
You cannot command God to do your bidding.
Nor can I or anyone else.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

If praying for some provides comfort then pray away...


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## rkunsaw (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't believe in gods and I don't pray. Prayer doesn't work except to make the one doing the praying feel like they've done their part. So if it makes you feel good go for it.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Actually, when you pray for someone or something then you are obliged to be part of the answer. Prayer requires action and commitment on the part of the prayer.

For example if you pray for the poor children overseas, you can't then just sit back and leave it all to God and others. You have to join the team.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

I like your use of the word 'gods' Rkunsaw; it seems to make religion more democratic.
However; thinking about it; there is always a 'top god' in any religion I can think of; Greek, Roman, Norse....so maybe not....
Sorry, I am wandering again..


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## rkunsaw (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes there are and many, many gods that people have worshiped over the years. Most people today only believe in one of them. They are non believers when it comes to the rest. I think the one they believe in is just as ridiculous as they think the others are.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Odd, isn't it; only one god; but so many different versions...


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## ClassicRockr (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm *PROUD* to say that both of us (wife/I) are Christians/Believers and do pray. Does praying help? Well, for some folks, when they are involved in a "life or death" situation, they pray and the person dies anyway, they can lose all Faith in God and ask *"WHY?" *loudly and boldly. This can be totally understandable, but that person MUST understand that the death was meant to be and that person is in a *MUCH BETTER *place now. That "much better place" can be in Heaven or wherever. 

Years ago, when I done some traveling thru several States (two different Spring/Summer's), each morning, before I left the motel, I'd say a prayer asking for "safe travel" and nothing happened to me. "He" kept me safe and I know, without a doubt, that "He" was with me the entire trip! To many things have ALMOST happened to me in my life for me not to believe "He" is not watching over me or hearing my prayers!


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## SifuPhil (Aug 27, 2014)

I wasn't raised Catholic nor even Christian so I feel no need to pray when things go wrong.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Surely praying just when things go wrong is not right; surely you should also give thanks when things go right....otherwise it could be seen as wingeing...


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## drifter (Aug 27, 2014)

“When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why god? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, There's just something about you that pisses me off.” 

Stephen King, Storm of the Century: An Original Screenplay


Sometime even the gods are angry and prayers do not get answered.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Who says you only pray when things go wrong ? Prayer is a lot more than mere spiritual whining.

Prayer comes in many guises - meditation is an obvious form of prayer and so is reflection on the important issues of life through poetry, music and literature. It is an awareness of the beauty around you. It is gratitude for the gift of life and it is offering up yourself to an authentic life. 

Sometimes it feels like no-one is listening and occasionally there is a surprising response.


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## Davey Jones (Aug 27, 2014)

Ina said:


> Why do so many people who say they don't believe in any religion pray when thing go wrong? I'm a non believer, but when my son's were dying I too found myself praying.:dunno:



 you just made a last ditch attempt to save your sons life that all that was,its what Moms do.


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## Davey Jones (Aug 27, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> I wasn't raised Catholic nor even Christian so I feel no need to pray when things go wrong.




Ya but if it was your last thing to do Ill bet you'd look up and say "why me?".


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## Ina (Aug 27, 2014)

Thank you for all of your responses. When I said I was a non believer I meant I didn't believe in any one religion. I think of myself as an agnostic. When my son's were dying, (they were only 27 and 45), I was praying that my sons' had grown enough inside to be able to move on in peace.


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

That is the really difficult bit, isn't it Ina?
when somebody you love dies, you HAVE to believe that you will meet again, or that they are happy, or with their relations; or something...to make any sense of it at all.
it is all you can hang on to...


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## Justme (Aug 27, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> That is the really difficult bit, isn't it Ina?
> when somebody you love dies, you HAVE to believe that you will meet again, or that they are happy, or with their relations; or something...to make any sense of it at all.
> it is all you can hang on to...



I have no wish to meet anyone in an afterlife, however fond I might be of them down here. I hope when I die I cease to be.


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## julia (Aug 27, 2014)

I completely agree with you, Rkunshaw and Vivjen.  There has never been a moment in my dealings with dramatic events that  it seemed rational or a helpful idea  to me to pray or to expect any kind of  magicked solution to the existing problem.


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## []Doo[]Der (Aug 27, 2014)

*I think a parody of Willy Nelson's piece on all the girls I've loved b4 may fit here.*

I believe in one less god than you perhaps.


A Thousand gods and yet!


*Willy Gets It Right

To all the gods we've loved before
Who led us in and out with war
Too bad they came along
So I dedicate this song
To all the gods we've purged before

To all those gods we once obsessed
And may I say they failed the test
  In helping us to grow
It cost  a lot we know
Serving all the gods we've had before

The winds of change are always blowing
And every time they try to stay
The winds of time continue blowing
And they just carry more gods away

To all the gods that cost loved one's lives
Of parents, children and our wives
I'm sad they came and went
I dedicate this lament
To all the gods we've served before

To all the gods who shared with thee
And caused such painful ecstasy
They live within our past
Leave history aghast
Those awful gods we loved before

The winds of truth are always blowing
And every time a god tries to stay
The winds of change religiously blowing
 Just carry another god away

To all the gods we've worshiped before
Who caused persecution and war
We devoutly served
Got just what we deserved ?
From all the gods we've worshiped  before

To all the gods we've praised  before
Who shared with us their blood and gore
We're sad that man created
So many now belated
Of all thousand gods we've served before*



By Pooper


​


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## Ina (Aug 27, 2014)

I like that very much Pooper!  :clap:raying::bigwink:


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## Happyflowerlady (Aug 27, 2014)

I was raised by Christian parents, and have prayed about everything all of my life. When I was younger, I simply believed everything they taught me at church, and didn't question the things that didn't make sense. I assumed that it was just my lack of understanding.
Now, I am questioning the things in the Bible that don't seem right to me, and also the things I was taught at church. 
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that this world, and the whole universe was created somehow, and didn't just happen to come into being. 
I read a book called Intervention Theory by Lloyd Pye, and he explains the development of humanity in a way that seems to me fits in with the Bible, and also the other early accounts of the creation of the world. 
He has a video on youtube called "everything you know is wrong" that explains (with pictures) the things in the book. 

I have had answers to prayers in my life, and just plain times that I should not have survived; and although not all of my prayers are answered (at least not the way I was praying for), I still believe there is some kind of a Divine Power, and I also believe that the "universal consciousness" idea works, and the Law of Attraction. 

Praying does no harm, in any case, and in a lot of cases; it seems to make a whole lot of difference; and I will continue to believe and to pray.


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## GeorgiaXplant (Aug 27, 2014)

Before my DH died but was still in the hospital, I was so frantic that I called our parish priest in the town we'd just moved from...800 miles away...and at 2 am and asked him what to do. We knew no one in the town we'd moved to, he was in University of Kentucky hospital 40 miles from there, I just didn't know where to turn. Our priest first of all looked up the phone number for the priest at the Newman Center at the University of Kentucky, then said I should remember to pray "THY will be done" not "MY will be done". I called. He was there within minutes and brought with him so much comfort. 

I think we often pray for what WE want forgetting to pray for a resolution instead, and being at peace with whatever that resolution may be.

I haven't been a practicing Catholic for many, many years and feel more that the Church left me rather than the other way around, but the early religious education never leaves.


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## Falcon (Aug 27, 2014)

WHY must there be a "divine" being behind everything that happens ??

  Things HAPPEN all by themselves.


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## Shirley (Aug 27, 2014)

I believe that way down deep in our soul, we  all want to believe that there is a Power greater than ourselves. That when we die, we don't cease to exist. Well, we don't. 

Everything that existed in the beginning of this universe still exists. Everything. Nothing that didn't exist at the beginning has been added. Not one iota.  That's a scientific fact. 

It may have changed forms, but in some form, it still exists.  Your soul exists as surely as the wind on your face or the warmth of the sun on your skin. When this body is old, sick and worn out and your soul leaves it, it will not cease to exist. Does it go to heaven? Does it become reincarnated? What happens to it? I don't know. I do know that when I leave this life, I will go on to live again. 

I am not a Christian in the usual sense of the word. I do believe in the Creator. I do believe that Christ was sent by the Creator to teach us a better way to live.  I believe that His message has been twisted by men to suit their purposes. 

I also don't know why He doesn't just turn the whole thing to ashes; as big a mess as we have made of it.


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## []Doo[]Der (Aug 27, 2014)

prayen don hurt lessen yer down on yer knees too long.


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## Jackie22 (Aug 27, 2014)

...to each their own, if it helps you to cope with your problems, then that is good, and it is really no one's business but your own, this is a personal thing.


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## oldman (Aug 27, 2014)

As a former airline pilot, I said a prayer before every flight and a little "Thank You" when we were at the gate.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

As a passenger, I prepare myself for death before every take off, then in a happy and peaceful state of mind I settle in to enjoy the flight. If the plane falls out of the sky, then so be it. I am ready. That is one of the benefits of prayer.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 27, 2014)

Prayer CAN hurt if you believe in it so strongly that you refuse to take physical action. It can hurt your children when you pray to God that He stops their internal bleeding while you refuse to take them to the hospital.

Prayer can offer false security and heightened - and unfulfilled - expectations.


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Agreed but it is the mindset that is the problem. That is why doubt is an important element of faith.


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## Bullie76 (Aug 28, 2014)

Yes. I'm more of a believer than not. But there are always extremist who take a believe or prinicple way too far.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Agreed but it is the mindset that is the problem. That is why doubt is an important element of faith.



Could you explain that, please? I would think that they are mutually exclusive ... don't most of the fire-and-brimstone preachers come down heavily on doubt? Even your everyday pastor - "God knows you doubt him, that's why He hasn't answered your prayers" ...


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## drifter (Aug 28, 2014)

I never can remember what I am. One of the antaginist that prays, I guess.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Well, first of all Sifuphil, I don't give any time to fire and brimstone preachers and if anyone tries to tell me that my faith is lacking because I don't believe everything in the Bible is to be interpreted literally or that I must take the preacher's word regarding the meaning, then I dismiss them as puerile and ignorant. If we are to accept that somehow God is present in the evolutionary process, then all of the characteristics of humanity are important and necessary, including doubt. It is the consequence of an active and inquiring mind. Why give humanity intelligence but forbid us to exercise it?

Faith is the triumph of trust over doubt. Faith is not only a Christian concept. Every human places their faith somewhere. A child places his faith in his father when he leaps into the swimming pool, trusting that his waiting father will not let him drown, even though he may be afraid of the water. Without the fear and the doubt, there is no faith.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Why give humanity intelligence but forbid us to exercise it?



Because it might contradict faith?

Or was that a rhetorical question? 



> Faith is the triumph of trust over doubt. Faith is not only a Christian concept. Every human places their faith somewhere. A child places his faith in his father when he leaps into the swimming pool, trusting that his waiting father will not let him drown, even though he may be afraid of the water. Without the fear and the doubt, there is no faith.



That last line is interesting - a very Yin/Yang construct ... 

To me and my way of believing, faith is a very fragile concept. It is often based upon nothing more than desire, fear or hearsay, and that seems a dubious way of living one's life. Now if that faith is earned - if your prayers are answered or your father catches you when you go underwater for the third time - then yes, faith can be good thing. 

But if your prayers remain unanswered or Dad lets you sink to the bottom of the pool then faith is a poor substitute for action.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Some actions require a lot of faith. Lack of action usually requires very little faith.
Do not conflate faith and belief. They are different concepts.

Additional thought - have you seen the third Indiana Jones movie?

There is a scene where Indiana has to step out in faith in order to save his father who is dying of a gun shot wound. He must acquire the legendary cup of Christ by passing three tests. His father is a believer in the Grail and has a Grail diary with important information in it.

The third test requires a leap of faith to cross a seemingly bottomless chasm. Indi is hesitant to believe in the invisible bridge illustrated in his father's diary. He tests its reality by throwing pebbles in front of him and sees that the bridge does seem to exist, but is it an illusion, does it go all the way across, will it support his weight? These things he does not know for sure but he cannot go back, so he steps out in faith and ultimately reaches the other side relatively easily. The diary helped him to pass the first two tests although things could have gone very badly and very nearly did. Faith is not a guarantee of a smooth life. It is what fortifies when life is very difficult.

Finally, faith is  developmental in the same way that cognition and morality are developmental. The child leaping into his father's arms exhibits a very simple level of faith development. The person who simultaneously carries doubt and disbelief has moved to a higher stage where paradox and complexity can be accommodated. This is why someone may say "I am an atheist" yet still enter into prayer as a meaningful exercise without being a hypocrite.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Some actions require a lot of faith. Lack of action usually requires very little faith.
> Do not conflate faith and belief. They are different concepts.



Alan Watts in his _The Wisdom of Insecurity_ had written:



> We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because,  in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is  almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the  insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The  believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits  in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is  an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out  to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown.  Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is  the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is  not self-deception.



Now, while I admire and respect Watts for his work on opening up Eastern thought to Westerners, I have to disagree with him here. He appears to make faith the good guy, when in reality it is faith that so often derails the train. If faith were indeed an "unreserved opening of the mind" then I could happily talk religion and spirituality with the faithful with no opposition or argument. 

Sadly this is not the case.


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

I've added some additional thoughts to my earlier post.


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## Shirley (Aug 28, 2014)

The only fire and brimstone preacher I ever heard was when I went to revival when I was 8 or 9 years old. I know for sure I'm going to heaven because he scared the hell out of me. 

 I don't believe that hell exists. Most churches now are saying hell is eternal separation from God. I'm not trying to convert anybody, I'm like the Old Hippy, I'm just trying real hard to adjust.  If you are an atheist, I'm sure you have good reasons for believing that way.  For me, I have had too many of my prayers answered to doubt.


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## []Doo[]Der (Aug 28, 2014)

*Believe me.*

I don't believe in hell,heaven, a god,, angels, fairies,leprechauns,ghosts,or to some degree,   layful:  truly honest politicians, lawyers or used car dealers.


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## Shirley (Aug 28, 2014)

What?????? You mean you've never seen fairies dancing in the full moonlight??? You poor dear!


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## GeorgiaXplant (Aug 28, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> I don't believe in hell,heaven, a god,, angels, fairies,leprechauns,ghosts,or to some degree,   layful:  truly honest politicians, lawyers or used car dealers.



What about Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny? How about The Great Pumpkin?


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## Ina (Aug 28, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> I don't believe in hell,heaven, a god,, angels, fairies,leprechauns,ghosts,or to some degree,   layful:  truly honest politicians, lawyers or used car dealers.



What about The Lone Ranger, Roy Roger, or Trigger? Surely you believe in Barman and Superman!!!


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## []Doo[]Der (Aug 29, 2014)

Of course, Superman is Canadian like Wolverine.  Roy,Trigger, Dale we're real.  Trigger got stuffed. Dale might have got stuffed too.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 29, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Additional thought - have you seen the third Indiana Jones movie?



A long time ago - I'll have to go by your scene-setting ...



> There is a scene where Indiana has to step out in faith in order to save his father who is dying of a gun shot wound. He must acquire the legendary cup of Christ by passing three tests. His father is a believer in the Grail and has a Grail diary with important information in it.
> 
> The third test requires a leap of faith to cross a seemingly bottomless chasm. Indi is hesitant to believe in the invisible bridge illustrated in his father's diary. He tests its reality by throwing pebbles in front of him and sees that the bridge does seem to exist, but is it an illusion, does it go all the way across, will it support his weight?



In the movie _Wanted_ the assassins can curve bullets around corners and obstacles. In _The Matrix_ there are dozens of feats of physical agility that aren't possible. The hundreds of chop-socky martial arts films I watched as a teenager regularly featured fantastic moves that could never be performed by mere humans.

_Indiana Jones_ is just another movie. 




> These things he does not know for sure but he cannot go back, so he steps out in faith and ultimately reaches the other side relatively easily. The diary helped him to pass the first two tests although things could have gone very badly and very nearly did. Faith is not a guarantee of a smooth life. It is what fortifies when life is very difficult.



If there was indeed no turning back as you say then whether or not he had faith is a moot point - he HAD to do what he did. Believing a supernatural force is assisting you isn't proof that God exists - it's merely a visualization technique, thousands of which can be found that do NOT feature any omnipotent beings but merely serve as a means of gaining internal fortitude.

Now if you phrased it as:

"_Faith is a way of surviving in life when you have no internal strength of your own to call upon_"

... then I would agree. 



> Finally, faith is  developmental in the same way that cognition and morality are developmental. The child leaping into his father's arms exhibits a very simple level of faith development. The person who simultaneously carries doubt and disbelief has moved to a higher stage where paradox and complexity can be accommodated. This is why someone may say "I am an atheist" yet still enter into prayer as a meaningful exercise without being a hypocrite.



A child jumping into his father's arms HAS no other knowledge or experience. 

It's like playing roulette. You put $10,000 down on double-o and let the wheel spin. If the number comes up you can attribute it to faith, faith that the number would come up. If it fails to come up then it is seen as either a lack of faith or going against the will of God. Either way it is quickly forgotten, as it is not supportive of the faith-based viewpoint.

Cognition is a scientific process, not a trial-and-error one where you _hope_ something will or will not happen. Morality is simply a group of socially-accepted-and-approved rules of behavior, again, not having anything to do with faith.

An atheist, a stone-cold dyed-in-the-wool non-believer of preternatural beings, would not pray - ever. They ARE being hypocritical because they are hedging their bets.


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2014)

In response to Sifuphil :-

_Indiana Jones_ is just another movie. 

I would say just another story. Stories are useful to illustrate ideas. In many ways that is their purpose. Whether you agree or disagree with the idea or not doesn't matter. 

 If there was indeed no turning back as you say then whether or not he had faith is a moot point - he HAD to do what he did. Believing a supernatural force is assisting you isn't proof that God exists - it's merely a visualization technique, thousands of which can be found that do NOT feature any omnipotent beings but merely serve as a means of gaining internal fortitude.

Nothing ever 'proves' that God exists. Personal experience is not only convincing but transformative. Rather than proof, the transformation is evidence that can be observed. We can always argue about the cause but the transformed is usually in no doubt about it.

Visualisation techniques are useful, with or without a concept of a deity. Does the tree in the forest fall if I don't witness the event? Does it fall if someone else sees it and tells me about it? Is the only witness to be believed oneself? What are you visualising right now and is it based on your personal experiences?

Now if you phrased it as:

 "_Faith is a way of surviving in life when you have no internal strength of your own to call upon_"

... then I would agree. 

Well put.

 A child jumping into his father's arms HAS no other knowledge or experience. 

The child has intuitive faith in the father. He does not reason the situation. He may, like my son, be too afraid of the water to make the jump. In this case intuitive fear overcomes intuitive faith.

It's like playing roulette. You put $10,000 down on double-o and let the wheel spin. If the number comes up you can attribute it to faith, faith that the number would come up. If it fails to come up then it is seen as either a lack of faith or going against the will of God. Either way it is quickly forgotten, as it is not supportive of the faith-based viewpoint.

My brother-in-law won $1,000,000 in Lotto. At the time he was deeply in debt and had failed in his third or fourth business. He prayed, bought a quickpick ticket and it won. He attributes it to prayer. I don't. It was co-incidence. His encounter with the divine has had no transformative effect on his life other than the absence of debt. If that is all God is for, what is the point? 

 Cognition is a scientific process, not a trial-and-error one where you _hope_ something will or will not happen. Morality is simply a group of socially-accepted-and-approved rules of behavior, again, not having anything to do with faith.

 An atheist, a stone-cold dyed-in-the-wool non-believer of preternatural beings, would not pray - ever. They ARE being hypocritical because they are hedging their bets.

When I was an atheist I would not, could not, pray. I was never hypocritical but I was stubborn and defiant. To pray would have been to admit error. I was quite certain that I was right. Now I am less certain about many things.


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## Justme (Aug 30, 2014)

The deity would be a sicko if it granted someone's wish to win the lottery, but denied help for people in dire circumstances like those who are starving!


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2014)

Exactly, Justme.


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## Twixie (Aug 30, 2014)

I was always thrown out of religious instruction at school..I asked too many questions..such as..Miss..Mary was married to Joseph and yet was impregnated by God..isn't that adultery??

Get out...


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2014)

We used to get up to the same capers. That's what teens do.
We didn't do it to cute students from the theological college though.
At an all girls school with an all female staff, a cute proto-minister was the best we had to look forward to.


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## Twixie (Aug 30, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> We used to get up to the same capers. That's what teens do.
> We didn't do it to cute students from the theological college though.
> At an all girls school with an all female staff, a cute proto-minister was the best we had to look forward to.



Ours was an all female school...no men allowed..It was Catholic run by nuns..I remember one day a trip out to the zoo..it must have been Spring or something..because most of the animals were um..''excited''

Lions..were humping..so were the water buffalo..the wolves were at it..I kept tittering..(country girl!)..in desperation we were taken to the insect house..and even the insects were at it..

I had so many slaps round the head that my hair was standing upright by the time we got out of the zoo..

With cries of ''Dirty Girl!!''..


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## Justme (Aug 30, 2014)

Twixie said:


> I was always thrown out of religious instruction at school..I asked too many questions..such as..Miss..Mary was married to Joseph and yet was impregnated by God..isn't that adultery??
> 
> Get out...



According to the Bible Mary wasn't married to Joseph at the time of her conception, just betrothed. Why do some Christians have a problem with women getting having sex and getting pregnant without a ring on their finger, when Mary who is likely to have been a young girl at the time, was pregnant before marrying Joseph. I suspect the 'deity wot done it' scenario was concocted as an excuse to cover up the unfortunate early conception of Jesus, by Joseph or another.


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2014)

Totally agree on the unmarried, very young and vulnerable pregnant girl aspect of the birth narratives. However, very little within the narratives is plausible. Every story element is symbolic rather than historical.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 31, 2014)

Twixie said:


> ... With cries of ''Dirty Girl!!''..



Being public school attendees, we neighborhood guys were always on the lookout for the "Dirty Girl" label - it was like a seal of approval to us. 

There is a TV sitcom starting up this fall here in the states- _Jane The Virgin_. The premise? 



> Set in Miami,  the series will detail the surprising and unforeseen events that take  place in the life of Jane Villanueva, a hard-working, religious young  Latina woman whose family tradition and a vow to save her virginity  until her marriage to a detective is shattered when a doctor  accidentally artificially inseminates her by mistake during a checkup.  And to make matters worse, the biological donor is a married man, a  former playboy and cancer survivor who is not only the new owner of the  hotel where Jane works, but was also her former teenage crush.


Wiki

The Biblical version of immaculate conception is almost _easy_ to understand compared to _that_ ...


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## Sid (Aug 31, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> What makes you think that you have the power of life or death?
> You cannot command God to do your bidding.
> Nor can I or anyone else.




  I don't.
  I am not commanding I am pleading.


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## Bettyann (Aug 31, 2014)

Hi Ina,
Good point you brought up. I think you believe that there is a Force or sorts, but are too much of  thinker to want to identify with the type of god that humans have perpetrated.... and I feel the same way. I know that there is an All That Is... a great force...even SCIENCE proves that... and quantum physics aligns with metaphysical spirituality very nicely. 
When a person 'starts praying' you are reaching out for something that seems beyond your ability to cope or handle it...but...it STILL is a part of Who You Are... I am a bit allergic to the word 'god' because it has gotten so SO very distorted and 'humanized to the lowest degree'... but, its all ok!  Our 'beliefs' can vary and fluctuate... nothing wrong with that ... it only means we are MORE free (and free of dogma)...I think one of the WORST mistakes we can make is thinking we have to reach One Certain Conclusion and that will be The Truth. ALL truth is relative. To stay open is best. A friend of mine calls herself a Possibilian... she says she is open to whatever happens to intrigue her and draw her attention. I like that! :love_heart:


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## Ina (Aug 31, 2014)

Bettyann, I like your friend's possibilialn idea. But I like they way you put it best. I've never been comfortable using the "god" word. The closest I get to that is the creater. (not creator) Something brought everything about, but somewhere inside a little voice says, "it wasn't us". I have no scientific background, so I let those that do argue those points. I just know I'm here, and I don't give credit to anything or anybody on this little ball of minerals. 
I'm not even sure we are worth more than a blade of grass, a bug, or even a kitten. I do know that I have some sort of communication going on inside with something, and it's been there since my earliest thoughts. I am communicating, and not just with myself. 
:magnify:


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## rt3 (Aug 31, 2014)

I had Major British writers from a catholic nun in college. By the time she got through Paradise Lost, I was praying.


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## Warrigal (Aug 31, 2014)

Sid said:


> I don't.
> I am not commanding I am pleading.



Sorry, Sid. I was being very insensitive.

My thinking is that when it comes to prayer for someone who is dying we pray out of our anguish and want God to suspend the natural laws of life and death. We want a miracle on demand. Then when we don't get one we turn away in anger and disappointment because our plea for help wasn't granted. In that moment we are like a hurt child railing against a parent who doesn't respond to our wishes, for reasons we don't understand. Disappointment and sorrow is as much a feature of our existence as joy and hope. I don't understand why either but it is so, and it is part of what it means to be human.


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## ClassicRockr (Aug 31, 2014)

Well, no matter what others in this forum feel, we will continue to "believe", trust in the Lord and pray. "To each their own" and this is "our own".


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## Athos (Sep 1, 2014)

Ina,
 why do you ask these survey like questions anyway? Do they have personal interest to you?

I have known many nonbelievers and none of them pray to God for any reason, that I know of.
Jokingly, I pray for a green light when I am driving! Atheists would be very insulted if you suggested
to them that they are hypocrites. Serious atheists snicker or are amused by people who think that
God or some being is listening to them and will do what they wish for.


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## Ina (Sep 1, 2014)

Athos, I never thought of my questions as surveys. 
My questions are in my head, and I have no one to discuss them with other than my friends on SF.
 I never intended to upset anyone with them.
 I have said that I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in man made religions. I do believe that there is a force or forces that brought about the universe. 
I use the word "pray" very broadly. I don't know if those forces acknowledge me anymore than it does a blade of grass. 
I have never called anyone except my father a hypocrite.
I have never prayed for a wish, nor have I prayed for a being to hear me. 
Even when my son's died, I only "prayed" that they had what they need to go forward, if there was a place for them to go forward to. 
If I have upset you, then I apologize.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 1, 2014)

I don't think of your thread questions as surveys at all Ina, they are very real and thoughtful.  Although I was no longer interested in the Catholic religion at all in my teens, I was hit by a car, and actually found myself praying learned prayers in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.  I think those are the things you mean, and it is true.  I don't do that anymore, but I do send positive thoughts mentally, which may be considered 'prayer' by some.  I enjoy all of your threads Ina, as they all are real thoughts that many of us have had in life. :love_heart:


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## Ina (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks Sea, I appreciate that. :wave:


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## Happyflowerlady (Sep 1, 2014)

Ina, I enjoy your threads also. You usually ask questions that make us think, or sometimes look at ourselves, or our beliefs. 
Since this is a forum, people can respond to any thread that they are interested in; and I would assume that someone who was not interested in a thread like this, would simply post in another thread that they were interested in. 
You always get a lot of answers to your threads, so obviously, they are enjoyed by many of us. 

I think that it is up to each person to decide what they think and what they will believe. Sometimes, I find something that I will  study and think about that may change how  I understand life, and God. 
 As a Christian, I (and probably many others) was raised that it was our greatest mission in life "to win souls for Christ". But most of the things that people do, like the hell-warnings on the side of a van, only push people further away from religion of any kind. Even parents who are only trying to raise their children to be the kind of person they think is right, often have the opposite effect. 
It is no wonder that we have so many people who do not want to have anything to do with organized religion, and I can't say that I blame them. 

However, actual studies have been done about prayer, and it does affect us when we pray. It can change our bodies, and even cause them to heal. 
Art Bell had people listening to his program one night, all thinking a positive thought (forgot exactly what it was) and it actually was reading the change in vibrations on some kind of a meter that the researcher had . 
So, I think that even if a person does not believe in God, it  still helps to think positive thoughts. 

I also agree with what Sifu Phil said, that it is not a good thing to just pray for a person to be healed, and not take them to the hospital.   That is kind of like sitting on the railroad track and then asking God to not let a train come by and hit you.


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## Warrigal (Sep 1, 2014)

Questions are important. 
Let's have more of them.


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## SifuPhil (Sep 2, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Questions are important.
> Let's have more of them.



Why?


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## oldman (Sep 2, 2014)

Like I said, I said a quick little prayer before every takeoff when I was a pilot and then a little thank you when we got to our destination's gate. 

I also prayed my butt off when I was in Vietnam. I think I said enough prayers to last me 6 or 7 lifetimes. And that my friends, you can take to the bank.

Amen.


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## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Why?



Because sheeple don't bother to ask questions. That's why.


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## Misty (Sep 2, 2014)

I enjoy your threads too, Ina.  You keep us on our toes, and keep things interesting. I am a believer, which I think other's have figured out by now,  and I pray and also volunteer at our church one hour each week on Saturday's, for those needing prayers that are listed on prayer cards. Our church has been doing this for 24 years, and volunteers take one hour each week, and prayers go on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If anyone ever needs prayers, let me know.


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## Vivjen (Sep 2, 2014)

Don't you dare stop, Ina; you make me think.....even if I don't always respond.


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## Ina (Sep 2, 2014)

Misty, I like just thinking of all that energy coming together. That in itself is powerful, no matter what a person believes. :wave:


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## drifter (Sep 2, 2014)

I'm one of those things, antaginists, who believe in the possiblility of a God or a Universal tender who takes care of those orbits and black holes, and other stuff, but does not interact with the earth's population. I still pray when the occasion demands, and in spite of all advice to the contrary, I have a cup of vanilla ice cream with dark chocolate poured over it, when the occasion demands. I may also be guilty of other small sins.


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## Athos (Sep 3, 2014)

Ina said:


> Athos, I never thought of my questions as surveys.
> My questions are in my head, and I have no one to discuss them with other than my friends on SF.
> I never intended to upset anyone with them.
> I have said that I'm an agnostic, I don't believe in man made religions. I do believe that there is a force or forces that brought about the universe.
> ...




I am not in the slightest annoyed or upset. I am simply making an observation.
I don't know why you'd think that. To me a survey question is one that asks
people to comment on a broad question on a topic.
 I am agnostic also--or atheist.


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## Ina (Sep 3, 2014)

Athos, I guess we just look a the word survey differently. For me the idea of surveys is to bring about the gathering of information for other motives, and generally ones we have no idea of.
As I said, they are just question and thoughts that I wonder about. :wave:


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