# In your opinion, what do we owe our adult children? or grandchildren?



## gennie (Aug 17, 2020)

Other than love and respect?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Aug 17, 2020)

Dear husband and I always said, if we're going to raise a family, we have to accept that our parenting days will never end. 

With that said, we have always been there for our kids no matter what, and while we don't have a lot of money, in the past we have helped several (financially) along the way.

Parenting is for life, and seeing that both dear husband and I had parents that stood behind us every step of the way, we're continuing on in their footsteps and carrying the love forward.


----------



## Sassycakes (Aug 17, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Dear husband and I always said, if we're going to raise a family, we have to accept that our parenting days will never end.
> 
> With that said, we have always been there for our kids no matter what, and while we don't have a lot of money, in the past we have helped several (financially) along the way.
> 
> Parenting is for life, and seeing that both dear husband and I had parents that stood behind us every step of the way, we're continuing on in their footsteps and carrying the love forward.



*You said it Perfectly !*


----------



## WhatInThe (Aug 17, 2020)

They are owed our wisdom as requested. We owe them honest even if 'negative' answers.


----------



## gennie (Aug 17, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> They are owed our wisdom as requested. We owe them honest even if 'negative' answers.


And if a negative answer is met with "Well, I didn't ask to be born?|


----------



## GeorgiaXplant (Aug 17, 2020)

love, respect, emotional support; anything else isn't owed, it's given


----------



## GeorgiaXplant (Aug 17, 2020)

gennie said:


> And if a negative answer is met with "Well, I didn't ask to be born?|


If that's the question, you didn't finish raising them. That's something that might be expected from a very young child or a very immature older one. It should be met with silence or "Nor did I."


----------



## pip48 (Aug 17, 2020)

gennie said:


> And if a negative answer is met with "Well, I didn't ask to be born?|


One person said you didn't finish raising them.  I don't agree with that. I do agree with it is a very immature and manipulative response. But, I don't blame everything on the parents.  At some point in time an individual has to take responsibility for who they are and what they are and stop blaming their raising.  And as for " what do we owe them?", we owe them nothing!  You can give anything that you choose to give them, but you *owe* them nothing.


----------



## jujube (Aug 17, 2020)

GeorgiaXplant said:


> love, respect, emotional support; anything else isn't owed, it's given


Georgia said it best!


----------



## win231 (Aug 17, 2020)

gennie said:


> And if a negative answer is met with "Well, I didn't ask to be born?|


Often, that type of response has something to do with the type of parents they were.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Aug 17, 2020)

A safety net.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Aug 17, 2020)

gennie said:


> And if a negative answer is met with "Well, I didn't ask to be born?|


You reply, “well, I didn’t mean to get pregnant, but hey, life happens and here we are.  Now grow the heck up!”


----------



## hollydolly (Aug 17, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> A safety net.


Precisely, and  along with love, I will _always_ while I'm alive and able  , provide a safety net for mine...


----------



## Don M. (Aug 17, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> A safety net.



That's right...parents need to assist if the kids fall into hard times....Temporarily....and hope that they return the favor if the elders need help in their later years.  Ours all doing great, but they know that if they have an emergency, they can count on us.


----------



## Phoenix (Aug 17, 2020)

My husband was a good father.   He has always been.  But his kids have treated him so badly for years that we are considering disinheriting them.  They now cannot call us until they apologize for their latest infractions.  They don't think they'd done anything wrong.  Stealing from him, lying to him, blaming him for all their mistakes...the list goes on and on.  His one daughter who is 50 now stole his only picture of his mother when she was young, and then the daughter denied she did it, and said her grandmother gave it to her.  Wrong.  The picture was very important to him, cherished.  Both she and her sister need to go to rehab, but they don't think they have a problem.


----------



## peppermint (Aug 17, 2020)

Our Kids are our life...and there kids.....Always untllI me and Hubby Pass.....

We both had wonderful parents.....God Rest Their Soul's


----------



## debbie in seattle (Aug 26, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> My husband was a good father.   He has always been.  But his kids have treated him so badly for years that we are considering disinheriting them.  They now cannot call us until they apologize for their latest infractions.  They don't think they'd done anything wrong.  Stealing from him, lying to him, blaming him for all their mistakes...the list goes on and on.  His one daughter who is 50 now stole his only picture of his mother when she was young, and then the daughter denied she did it, and said her grandmother gave it to her.  Wrong.  The picture was very important to him, cherished.  Both she and her sister need to go to rehab, but they don't think they have a problem.



phoenix-
My oldest has been disinherited—it’s now on my youngest daughters shoulders when I die To do what she wants.  What did it for me was when my husband died, she had the gall to ask when she would ’get her share’ when he was gone and then when he did die, I called her to be with me, but, ‘she was tired’.   Oh, the stories I could share with you.


----------



## Glidepath (Aug 26, 2020)

My opinion. Once they're adults, you don't owe your kids/grandkids any material things.  If the adult child you raised is failing at being a parent to your grandchild/grandchildren, when they're still kids, you do "owe" the grandchildren as much engagement that circumstances (including the law) will allow. This does not mean material things. 

Some people turn out bad.  Sometimes those people were raised right and still decided to make the wrong choices.

Some adults have parents who think they did a good job raising the adult child. Sometimes the parents of those adult kids think that because those parents were selfish when the adult child was a kid and remain clueless and selfish now. 

Every family is different. But there comes a time in every grown up's life where they are responsible for their own decisions...and the consequences of those decisions. Good or ill.


----------



## Phoenix (Aug 26, 2020)

debbie in seattle said:


> phoenix-
> My oldest has been disinherited—it’s now on my youngest daughters shoulders when I die To do what she wants.  What did it for me was when my husband died, she had the gall to ask when she would ’get her share’ when he was gone and then when he did die, I called her to be with me, but, ‘she was tired’.   Oh, the stories I could share with you.


Thanks for addressing my issues with his kids.  Do you think your youngest will share with her sister?  It has been my experience that people usually don't.  But people make individual choices.  Would you like to tell me those stories?  I'd be willing to listen.  It's cold that she was too tired to be there for you.  

If my husband passes away first, as soon as I'm up to it I will update the will.  All of the things we have, go to each other if one of us passes.  I will see an attorney and find out what my options are and do it in a way that his kids will be unsuccessful if they contest the will when I pass.  I think if I leave them a small amount, they won't be able to contest it.  But I don't know the laws in this state.  I'm in Oregon.  One of my other thoughts is that I may out live them.  They have taken horrible care of themselves.  I had one aunt who lived to be 97 and one who lived to be 101.  Even some of the men in my family lived to be in their 90s.  Mom was 91 when she passed.  So....


----------



## Knight (Aug 26, 2020)

If mentally & or physically capable of functioning in society as they age.  IMO owed would be guidance to become lawful functioning members of society. 

If handicapped extending the care & support they need to live their lives as well as could be expected for their condition.


----------



## hellomimi (Aug 26, 2020)

IMO, after we raised our kids to be responsible (hopefully)  productive citizens we, as parents owe them nothing else. Of course, love for them does not diminish. In case of handicapped kids that cannot take care of themselves, I will still care for them and plan for their care in case they outlive me.

As to grandkids, it is my kids responsibility to raise them as they see fit.


----------



## StarSong (Aug 26, 2020)

Our children haven't needed or asked for anything since they were launched.  Exceptions would be a little babysitting, help with a household fix-it projects, occasional advice on financial or personal matters, that kind of thing.  

If they needed more serious help we'd do what we could. It's not a matter of "owing" but rather of wanting to do for those we love most. My blessed mother was there for us when we had some business reversals, and we'll be there for our children if they are up against the wall. 

Just as we know they'll be there for us when or if we need them.


----------



## Phoenix (Aug 26, 2020)

My grand aunt Lottie said the parents are responsible for the children for their first 18 years.  After that it's up to them.


----------



## Giantsfan1954 (Aug 26, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Dear husband and I always said, if we're going to raise a family, we have to accept that our parenting days will never end.
> 
> With that said, we have always been there for our kids no matter what, and while we don't have a lot of money, in the past we have helped several (financially) along the way.
> 
> Parenting is for life, and seeing that both dear husband and I had parents that stood behind us every step of the way, we're continuing on in their footsteps and carrying the love forward.


Same, though it’s difficult to offer financial help for me since their father died.


----------



## grahamg (Aug 27, 2020)

I'll have to find some comments to add to this thread, as I feel this is "my subject", (or one I keep banging on about anyway), but I'd first like to endorse most of the above comments.

It will be too easy for me to repeat things I've said before, or in fact very hard for me to avoid doing so completely, but if I state a few facts, perhaps that will be helpful to someone, ("as an excluded parent of twenty four years and counting"!).

My daughter aged twelve stated: "that even if a judge ordered her mother to allow me contact with her, she would not come". 

My daughter has stated on many occasions: "He ruined my life until the age of twelve, dont let him ruin any more of my life".

My daughter stated: "He never took me anywhere interesting on contact visits", and her mother and "new daddy" stated: "It was cruel to take my daughter to church when she did not wish to go".

My daughter stated: "Every letter he sends me makes me more pleased I dont have to see him anymore".

In spite of all the above, my daughter, possibly persuaded by her husband, allowed me to be present when she brought her six months old son to visit the farm where my father lived, a year before he died, so four years ago. My daughter chose to stand beside me at my father's funeral, in a large church where there was plenty of room to stand elsewhere, and although I'd tried to let her know the funeral details I'd no idea she was going to attend. My daughter remains as the sole beneficiary of my will, although she'll never need any money I might leave, and in my opinion she had a wonderful childhood, added to by my ten or so years of contact with her after my wife broke up the marriage, (a time when she repeated often "Keep coming daddy", though she did not have to say this).

Therefore, when you ask "what do we owe our adult children? or grandchildren?", I'm left thinking why it is so abhorrent to people in western countries to suggest our children owe loving parents and grandparents a great deal? 

Why is the focus always so much the other way, and is this a good thing, (I'd suggest not, and a change in family law to reflect at least a more balanced view, is well overdue ?


----------



## Rosemarie (Aug 27, 2020)

I cannot add anything new to what has already been said. We are responsible for our children until adulthood, then they take responsibility for themselves. We owe them nothing...and they owe us nothing.


----------



## grahamg (Aug 27, 2020)

Rosemarie said:


> I cannot add anything new to what has already been said. We are responsible for our children until adulthood, then they take responsibility for themselves. We owe them nothing...and they owe us nothing.


Why have children in the first place if what you assert it true? 

Families owe each other a great deal, if they've been loving towards one another in my view, "if there's no love involved I'll accept your assertion.     .


----------



## StarSong (Aug 27, 2020)

I am truly, deeply sorry for people who have difficult relationships with their children.  Mine are among the greatest joys of my life.  We laugh, talk, commiserate and share our lives with each other.  

If I wouldn't lend _them _a hand when they need it, to whom would I ever feel moved to lend it? My children aren't grasping or greedy. If they came to us for money it would be under extraordinary circumstances, and only for necessities. In cases like that, why wouldn't we share our resources? (They'll eventually get everything anyway.) 

My mother and parents-in-law were generous with their time, talents, advice and (on rare occasions) money. We were kind, respectful, nearby, helpful and available to our parents. We cared for and protected them when they were no longer able to do so for themselves, and did so without complaint or resentment. 

We didn't _owe_ them - we _loved_ them.  Love carries certain obligations that the soul craves to carry out, including caring for them when  Caring for others in need is among them.  By my observation, this is how it works in most families. 

Remember the Hollies song?  

_It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share?
And the load
Doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother
He's my brother_

Or my child. Or my parent. Or my neighbor. Or my friend.


----------



## Phoenix (Aug 27, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I'll have to find some comments to add to this thread, as I feel this is "my subject", (or one I keep banging on about anyway), but I'd first like to endorse most of the above comments.
> 
> It will be too easy for me to repeat things I've said before, or in fact very hard for me to avoid doing so completely, but if I state a few facts, perhaps that will be helpful to someone, ("as an excluded parent of twenty four years and counting"!).
> 
> ...


I find your story compelling in an unusual sort of way.


----------



## Nathan (Aug 27, 2020)

gennie said:


> Other than love and respect?



That about covers it.    We "owe" them a truthful accounting when discussing their childhood years.


----------



## grahamg (Aug 27, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I find your story compelling in an unusual sort of way.


When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.

I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.

Those two children were reported as using the exact same words towards their dad, "I hate you!", or " You are horrible!".,..., as my own child stated about me so often, to anyone who might listen, (my child then stating "Keep coming daddy", blissfully unaware of the contradiction).

Another statement my daughter used to make about contact with me was, "Its all political"....., (what do you think she meant by that statement?)! 

I know my daughter sometimes felt guilty if she'd enjoyed the contact visit, and was acutely aware of the need to hide her feelings, if she had enjoyed herself. Some witnesses supporting my ex when contact broke down said they'd seen my daughter "appearing as though she hasn't enjoyed herself", (when they were in her mothers house, whilst I dropped my daughter off). 

Hence my daughter may well have been right, my contact with her was "political", at least in the sense it was open to endless criticism, and the quality of contact and my relationship with my child could be misconstrued, either deliberately, or by well meaning busy bodies.    .


----------



## Nathan (Aug 27, 2020)

This thread has served as a reminder for me that I need to get wills and "final matters" taken care of, for my wife and I.  We each have a daughter and son, and I have an _estranged_ adopted daughter from a previous marriage. Eventhough there are no longer hostilities between us, it wouldn't be fair to the other adult children to share inheritance with her.


----------



## Pecos (Aug 27, 2020)

The flip side to the question of what I owe them emerges when I think of all the times that my adult children have reminded me to let them know if my wife and I ever need help. They have expressed the desire for us to move out to Washington State so that will be easier for them to help us as we get older. I have seen several instances where adult children were extremely helpful to their aging parents (and a number who were not). I am confident that we will be among those who get help if we need it.

As to what I owe them, we will not be wasteful with our resources, and I expect to leave both of them with a sizable contribution to their retirement funds. Fair is fair on a question like this, I love them both and I intend to show it in a meaningful way.


----------



## Phoenix (Aug 27, 2020)

grahamg said:


> When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.
> 
> I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.
> 
> ...


Human relationships, especially family relationships can be very complicated.


----------



## grahamg (Aug 27, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Human relationships, especially family relationships can be very complicated.


I agree that people can speculate endlessly about the quality of someone's family relationships, or equally about their own, where they've every right to do so if they wish, (not that it always does any good in my view). However, the rub comes when busy bodies stick their noses into the affairs of others to the extent they sometimes do, like the ones I described above, and even in a small way, influence children who already believe their relationships with a parent aren't just "complicated", but "highly political", and there's an industry of professional busy bodies judging the parents, feeding off it all.    !


----------



## grahamg (Aug 28, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I am truly, deeply sorry for people who have difficult relationships with their children.  Mine are among the greatest joys of my life.  We laugh, talk, commiserate and share our lives with each other.
> 
> If I wouldn't lend _them _a hand when they need it, to whom would I ever feel moved to lend it? My children aren't grasping or greedy. If they came to us for money it would be under extraordinary circumstances, and only for necessities. In cases like that, why wouldn't we share our resources? (They'll eventually get everything anyway.)
> 
> ...


Most impressed with your post, and can't fault it at all.    .
I just wanted to mention or add something I've noticed "from the animal kingdom", to question whether or not it has any relevance(?).

If the offspring of almost any higher species were to be attacked, or taken from their mothers by a predator, then a response of some kind is to be expected from the rest of the group. However, whilst they all might be alarmed, it is true that once the lion, tiger or whatever, has grabbed its meal, the rest of the herd knows they and their own offspring are safe for now.

Obviously, our children in western countries are mostly not likely to be predated upon by large meat eating cats, . My proposed analogy falls down before its started you might think therefore, but I would still argue even fathers like myself, are instinctively fearful of our children being lead astray, "when new alpha males" appear on the scene, and our partners head gets swayed enough to break up the marriage.

An old neighbour of mine, who knew both myself and my then wife, commented unequivocally when I discussed the issue of whether my daughters new stepfather might treat her as well as his own child, (my ex getting pregnant shortly after she left me). He stated my daughter would always come second in those circumstances to his own child, and the neighbour was no fool, and he had broad experience having fought in our army during WWII, raised his own family with his wife successfully, etc. etc.

"Predators come in all forms don't they", not just in the animal kingdom, and selling my ex the idea "it was best for our child to live with her mother in his house", was something he did early on, (whilst my ex was all too ready to believe it, though what it means now they've split I don't know?).    .


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 28, 2020)

I quoted this in something I wrote recently..  the original source was a book published in 1978 (by Quentin and Emmy Lou Schenk):
_"There is an egalitarianism in the mature, natural family..  when all members of the natural family are adults.." _

That's the #1 thing I believe parents owe their adult-aged kids.


----------



## Pepper (Aug 28, 2020)

I sang this to my grandson when he was a baby.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Aug 28, 2020)

I think we owe them our support (unless they do something illegal, which thankfully I don't have to worry about). I don't mean financially, not necessarily anyway. I think we owe them respect and to be treated as adults.


----------



## Ken N Tx (Aug 28, 2020)

Years ago my brother got a $2000 loan from my father, when my father asked when he would get it back, my brother said"consider it an advance of his inheritance..I thought my dad was going to kill him!!


----------



## Manatee (Aug 28, 2020)

Our kids are far more affluent than we are.  I will be pleased to never become a financial burden to them.


----------



## grahamg (Aug 28, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I think we owe them our support (unless they do something illegal, which thankfully I don't have to worry about). I don't mean financially, not necessarily anyway. I think we owe them respect and to be treated as adults.


"I feel it my duty to point out any weaknesses in seemingly sensible points of view", (or to stick my nose in at least).
When you're going through the family law process to try to maintain contact with your child one of the assessments made by court appointed officials is how adult your twelve year old child appears to be. If they appear more grown up for their age then the child's views on contact with their father is taken more seriously, or given more weight.

In other words if you've shown true love and care towards your child, built up their self esteem as much as you're able, all, then whatever the child says against you is going to be " listened to and taken seriously". If on the other hand, you happen to be one of those parents reluctant to allow your child to grow up, and don't allow them to make any decisions that matter the "infantilised child" isn't likely to be listened to as much by court appointed officials, and they're more likely to assume the child needs more parenting, not less!

I know I'm derailing or misconstruing your comments to make a point largely irrelevant to your arguments, and really I totally agree with your comments. I hope you can understand the arguments I'm making too, and forgive me for taking liberties with your post.      !


----------



## grahamg (Aug 29, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I sang this to my grandson when he was a baby.


I remember this Doris Day number better, "When I was just a little girl, I asked my mother "What shall I be"".(unfortunately I couldn't sing it to my child as I'm tone deaf.    )       .


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 29, 2020)

grahamg said:


> When you're going through it you often think your own situation is unusual too, but I discovered some four years on from the break down in contact with my daughter, that not only were there many parents/fathers in the same boat, there were some unbelievably striking similarities you just couldn't make up.
> 
> I stayed in a small guest house in London, where I found in my room a magazine featuring a story about the former England rugby captain, Will Carling, (he was supposed to have had a short affair with Princess Diana, or at least Wills first wife Lisa believed so, and it split them up). Will Carling then met a married woman with two young children, broke up that marriage apparently, and the story in the magazine focussed on the difficulties the jilted husband had seeing his two children.
> 
> ...



How old was your daughter when she made that statement?


----------



## grahamg (Aug 29, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> How old was your daughter when she made that statement?


Very young to have such an insight, stating issues surrounding contact, or her contact with me being "political", (in the sense I believe of her knowing she had to hide her feelings from her mother, plus others who might stick their noses in to criticise the quality of contact or just feel they had a right to form judgements about someone's personal life).

So how old was she? ..........Under ten years old I think(?)


----------



## JaniceM (Aug 29, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Very young to have such an insight, stating issues surrounding contact, or her contact with me being "political", (in the sense I believe of her knowing she had to hide her feelings from her mother, plus others who might stick their noses in to criticise the quality of contact or just feel they had a right to form judgements about someone's personal life).
> 
> So how old was she? ..........Under ten years old I think(?)


From posts you've made I kinda figured she was rather young at the time.  
A ten-year-old child is not going to say "It's all political."  With that kind of vocabulary, it's like the expression somebody "put words in her mouth."


----------



## grahamg (Aug 29, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> From posts you've made I kinda figured she was rather young at the time.
> A ten-year-old child is not going to say "It's all political."  With that kind of vocabulary, it's like the expression somebody "put words in her mouth."


Believe me this child was capable of using such words as "Its all political...", (in relation to contact with me!).

I'm glad you've come back with a response so quickly, as it gives me the chance to add more facts to the story I've presented so far, and resisted doing so in my last post to avoid it becoming too long and possibly confusing.

When my daughter was ten years old I managed to arrange a five day staying access or contact visit, so she could travel to my home in the south of England, (I brought my daughter down from her mothers home south of Manchester, two hundred miles away). During the almost ten years of contact I managed my daughter had only spent weekends away with me on four occasions, and one of these had only been agreed when a judge in the family court castigated my ex.wife's lawyers at the start, asked my ex whether I'd ever been invited into her house with her new husband, (knowing the answer would be " no"). Then the judge expressed the view my child spending a weekend with her dad, was really just an extension of the regular contact I'd maintained for about four years already. At this point my ex and her legal team capitulated.

You've had more detail there than really necessary, but I'm attempting to give you as much background as I can, before going on to the five day staying contact story.

Okay, my daughter had not said she wanted to come for this short holiday to stay with me, (previous short holidays my daughter has assented to, but done so in a way her mother wasn't sure about intentionally). My daughter attempted to contact her mother twice per day on my telephone, even though I'd told her she could use my telephone only once per day, (pre mobile phones of course). 

On the first day at my home I took my to a restaurant run by a friend of mine. Half way through the meal my daughter stood up and announced in front of the staff and other visitors, "I want everyone to know I hate him!", and then sat down to continue her meal, (the staff who were friends if mine said they'd never seen anything like it in their lives!). A similar pattern of behaviour played out on a couple more occasions, but luckily abated thereafter, helped I think by my new girlfriend Jenny coming over to stay too, (my daughter checking btw we were socially distanced in sleeping arrangement though!).

My daughter took to Jenny quite well, (she was extremely laid back and friendly with children), and told her "She'd make a trendy mum", though quickly followed it up with, " Not as good as my mum", which Jenny happily accepted and reinforced, saying, "Of course not as good as your mum".

Have I told you enough to let you gain an insight this young child was well capable if figuring out the situation was "political", and in my view those outbursts at the restaurant and elsewhere were to ensure, " no one could assert or prove she'd enjoyed staying with me", (even though I do assert this was enjoyable no matter how it sounds to anyone to the contrary)?     .


----------



## Mr. Ed (Aug 31, 2020)

Owe our children/grandchildren is a poor choice of words. I do not believe we owe anybody, however; we choose to whom and what we share.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Aug 31, 2020)

grahamg said:


> "I feel it my duty to point out any weaknesses in seemingly sensible points of view", (or to stick my nose in at least).
> When you're going through the family law process to try to maintain contact with your child one of the assessments made by court appointed officials is how adult your twelve year old child appears to be. If they appear more grown up for their age then the child's views on contact with their father is taken more seriously, or given more weight.
> 
> In other words if you've shown true love and care towards your child, built up their self esteem as much as you're able, all, then whatever the child says against you is going to be " listened to and taken seriously". If on the other hand, you happen to be one of those parents reluctant to allow your child to grow up, and don't allow them to make any decisions that matter the "infantilised child" isn't likely to be listened to as much by court appointed officials, and they're more likely to assume the child needs more parenting, not less!
> ...


I can't "forgive" you until you explain why you attached your reply to *my* reply?! It has nothing to do with what I said. Had me scratching my head like...WTH??!! *Why* are you trying to confuse an old lady?!   On the serious tip...sorry to read of the issues you've had with your daughter.  Had your relationship been mended?


----------



## gennie (Aug 31, 2020)

Mr. Ed said:


> Owe our children/grandchildren is a poor choice of words. I do not believe we owe anybody, however; we choose to whom and what we share.


I'm sorry but I think everyone who chooses to bring a child into the world has certain obligations to them until they reach maturity both physically and mentally.


----------



## FastTrax (Aug 31, 2020)

I don't know about anybody else here but after two (2) Count them "TWO" failed marriages and a bit of children who my ex wives raised to be totally self indulgent, inconsiderate, greedy and existed to worship mammon i'd say  if I were president of America there would be a a thousand question test before being legally married and a battery of five thousand question test a polygraph a financial statement and and an MMPI before having children. Well I said my piece make of it what you will.


----------



## peramangkelder (Aug 31, 2020)

"How sharper than a Serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child"
Or in my case 2 thankless adult children who are now in their 40's
I eventually got enough courage to leave my abusive ex-husband after 37 years of marriage 
My children both blame me for the subsequent divorce from their father and my MIL blamed me too
The reason I mention my MIL is because ex was an only child and a boy and in her eyes he could do NO wrong
Even when he was being abusive somehow or other it was always my fault....like I asked for it....go figure
We have been estranged for many years and yes I do contact them regularly but never receive a reply
Do you know they have not once contacted me to ask how I am during this Pandemic
Just in case you are thinking I bullied my children as they were growing up....think again please
I would never smack my children unless they were in danger of hurting themselves
I had a lousy childhood and I was determined to give my 2 children a far better upbringing and I thought I had
I did not go back to work until they were at school and then only a part time job to help pay our house off
Not all family relationships are like the 'happy families' we see on TV
Fortunately my only sister and I have a good family bond and she and her 2 adult children will benefit from my estate


----------



## grahamg (Sep 1, 2020)

gennie said:


> I'm sorry but I think everyone who chooses to bring a child into the world has certain obligations to them until they reach maturity both physically and mentally.


And the law agrees with you so far as obligations to your children physically, but not so much "mentally", or to their mental well being in my humble opinion. I say this because of my often stated reasons about "denying decent parents a rebuttable legal presumption in favour of contact with their children". 

This is done on the basis, they claim, it would be against children's best interests to allow a rebuttable legal presumption of contact with decent parents. Whilst the law or its representatives are doing this, or administering the family law, they feel entitled to invade your private life up to and including asking your child whether they love you.

 I believe such intrusion is harmful in itself, and it is worth restating that whilst family law professionals can destroy "okay" relationships between parents and their children, they can never force a reluctant parent to engage with their child well, or in a loving way.    .


----------



## grahamg (Sep 1, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> I don't know about anybody else here but after two (2) Count them "TWO" failed marriages and a bit of children who my ex wives raised to be totally self indulgent, inconsiderate, greedy and existed to worship mammon i'd say  if I were president of America there would be a a thousand question test before being legally married and a battery of five thousand question test a polygraph a financial statement and and an MMPI before having children. Well I said my piece make of it what you will.


A very clear opinion, well stated, and I hope I can understand where you're coming from here. My only reservations would be those charged with the responsibility to check on others suitability for marriage, probably won't make good, happy, loving marriages of their own, and are more likely to be "busy bodies"!    .


----------



## grahamg (Sep 1, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I can't "forgive" you until you explain why you attached your reply to *my* reply?! It has nothing to do with what I said. Had me scratching my head like...WTH??!! *Why* are you trying to confuse an old lady?!   On the serious tip...sorry to read of the issues you've had with your daughter.  Had your relationship been mended?


I've got no excuse, it was blatant abuse of forum rules, completely unjustified, and simply an expedient I indulged in, (maybe your heart is soft enough to forgive even so!   ).


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 1, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I've got no excuse, it was blatant abuse of forum rules, completely unjustified, and simply an expedient I indulged in, (maybe your heart is soft enough to forgive even so!   ).


 You gave me my first good laugh of the day, so yes I forgive you.


----------

