# Multi-Level Marketing - Anyone Ever Participate?



## SifuPhil

I've been re-reading the excellent book _Merchants of Deception_ by Eric Scheibeler. It's about his years spent with the Amway Corporation and how he started off motivated and enthusiastic, reached the highest peaks of achievement and then fell from grace when he realized the contrary nature of the business.

I have a friend from high school who was my sparring partner and best man at my wedding (as I was at his) who had gotten involved with "The Business" back in the '70's. He pushed so hard marketing it, constantly demanding to "show me the opportunity", that for a while we stopped speaking to each other. 

Other companies such as Avon are also structured as multi-level marketing companies but don't seem to have such a checkered history. Theoretically in an MLM you sell both product and distributorships or business opportunities, gaining a commission on both activities. The larger your "downline" or the number of people below you the larger your commissions.

I just wondered if anyone here has had any experience working with such businesses. The reason I ask is that I'm planning to begin using a few products from J.R. Watkins because of their all-natural and "green" nature, and as part of the "membership" you also have the option to become a distributor of the product. Since I've used their stuff before and am more than happy with it I can truly claim to "believe in" their quality and feel I could more honestly and enthusiastically tell others about it, and my research so far shows them to be on the up-and-up.

So ... any Amway folks here? Nu-Skin? Avon?


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## Jillaroo

_Years ago we signed up to sell Amway but after a few weeks were turned off it by the guy above us who knew nothing about the products at all, i feel you need to be totally sold on a product plus have good knowledge about it in order to be successful at selling it, we got out.
             I have sold Nutrimetics & Tupperware over the years which is set up differently to Amway._


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## SifuPhil

Jillaroo said:


> _Years ago we signed up to sell Amway but after a few weeks were turned off it by the guy above us who knew nothing about the products at all, i feel you need to be totally sold on a product plus have good knowledge about it in order to be successful at selling it, we got out.
> 
> I have sold Nutrimetics & Tupperware over the years which is set up differently to Amway._



Excellent. I'll have to do some research into those two to see how they differ - I would imagine the requirements for sales amounts would be different, but perhaps something more fundamental like corporate philosophy.

I know that Amway has, in the past dozen years or so, undergone a metamorphosis of sorts, trying out new names and trying to distance themselves from their "old ways", but for me at least once bitten twice shy.


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## SeaBreeze

I _vaguely _remember selling Avon products from door to door when I was very young.  I did it for less than 2 weeks, and knew that although I liked the idea of selling creams, cosmetics and perfumes, etc...I was not or would never be a salesperson.  If someone said they were not interested, I would politely say thank you and leave.  I could never bring myself to be pushy, or try to manipulate people or talk them into something by force.  For me, that was my MLM experience, don't even remember if I made anything.


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## That Guy

No no and no.


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## Ozarkgal

Years ago, I tried selling "Home Interiors" merchandise.  This was interior decorating items sold on the party plan.  Sooner or later you run out or burn out of parties.  The major downside was that you took the orders at the party and didn't collect the money until you delivered the product.  Lots of ladies had buyers remorse after the party wine wore off before delivery and renigged on their order.  You were stuck with the crap and the only way to recoup your money was to resell it at another party, because they had a no return policy...easy way to go broke!  The woman that I was under did very well with it she had a large group under her and she earned  major trips, fur coat, and I think even a car.


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## SifuPhil

Ozarkgal said:


> ... The woman that I was under did very well with it she had a large group under her and she earned  major trips, fur coat, and I think even a car.



It seems that with most conventional MLMs the early bird gets the worm, i.e. the quicker you join a new company the better situated you are. Makes sense, given their often-pyramidal structure.

That would be a definite turn-off for me, to have to wait to be paid until delivery. I'm not surprised you burned out on it. 

Here's the way I hope MY future adventures turn out ...


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## Anne

Wow, Phil - that video convinced all of us!!!!   Where do we sign up???  :rofl:


Seriously tho, I wish you luck in your new venture!!!


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## Jillaroo

_Cheque or bank deposit Phil??:wow:_


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## dbeyat45

Many years ago, our family _*doctor*_ was an Amway rep.  He sold us a home security system .... does that count ???????????


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## GDAD

Sifuphil: Pyramid selling laws in Australia.  Beware!!!!!!If you intend to try it.

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Scams/Types_of_scams/Pyramid_schemes.page


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## SifuPhil

Anne said:


> Wow, Phil - that video convinced all of us!!!!   Where do we sign up???  :rofl:
> 
> 
> Seriously tho, I wish you luck in your new venture!!!



Thank you! You can sign up at Joe's Candy Shop And Betting Parlor on 3rd and Main ... 



Jillaroo said:


> _Cheque or bank deposit Phil??:wow:_



Cash only, please!



dbeyat45 said:


> Many years ago, our family _*doctor*_ was an Amway rep.  He sold us a home security system .... does that count ???????????



It's more than a little interesting that back in the '70's and '80's - the "bad old days" of Amway - they were able to recruit MANY professionals. Their sales presentations must have been VERY convincing ... 



GDAD said:


> Sifuphil: Pyramid selling laws in Australia.  Beware!!!!!!If you intend to try it.
> 
> http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Scams/Types_of_scams/Pyramid_schemes.page



Thanks for the heads-up, GDAD. We have similar laws here as well, but the Watkins Company doesn't qualify as a pyramid since there is actually product being sold (and actually used) and you aren't forced into buying motivational tapes, books, etc. Ever since I started researching the Amway debacle I've grown used to doing my due diligence. 

Besides, for reasons I have yet to ascertain (but plan to discover) Watkins is confined solely to the U.S. and Canada.


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## Happyflowerlady

Watkins is a great company, and their products are first rate ! I have belonged to Watkins before, and signed up just because I wanted to get my products at wholesale. I haven't even looked at a Watkins catalog in forever, but I imagine that they still have at least some of the great products they had way back when.
There are some salves I really liked, petro-carbo, and one that smells like Vicks Vaporub, can't remember the name, Menthol-Camphor, or something like that. And a mustard plaster that would cure about anything ! 
I also used to get their vitamins for pets ( dogs ? Horses ?) ,they were called Min-Vits, I think.
Lots  of great spices, puddings, etc, for the kitchen, and household cleaners as well. 
I think you will be pleased with both the company and the products.

I have probably been in every multi-level marketing company there is, and most of them have wonderful products, but it is hard to build an income with them, because you just keep losing people, and people is what they are built on. I still think the concept is the best one out there, since it is usually products made in America, and we help other people earn money, and not some giant corporation like Walmart.
I love Amway, and still have my old ClearTrac vacuum cleaner that I bought over 20 years ago, and it will probably outlast me, it is such a great product. All the Amway products were excellent, just not affordable to the common person at retail prices.


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## SifuPhil

Happyflowerlady said:


> Watkins is a great company, and their products are first rate ! I have belonged to Watkins before, and signed up just because I wanted to get my products at wholesale. I haven't even looked at a Watkins catalog in forever, but I imagine that they still have at least some of the great products they had way back when.
> There are some salves I really liked, petro-carbo, and one that smells like Vicks Vaporub, can't remember the name, Menthol-Camphor, or something like that. And a mustard plaster that would cure about anything !
> I also used to get their vitamins for pets ( dogs ? Horses ?) ,they were called Min-Vits, I think.
> Lots  of great spices, puddings, etc, for the kitchen, and household cleaners as well.
> I think you will be pleased with both the company and the products.



I've used several of their products before, which is one of the reasons I feel good about the company. I could never shill for a place whose products I never used or didn't believe in. 

Unfortunately Watkins has discontinued many of their older products. They've totally eliminated all pet supplies, which I don't understand as it is such a huge field. They still have their 4 main categories of products - Spices and Extracts, Personal Care, Home Care and Home Remedies - but they've evidently added and subtracted many products over the years. Now they're even offering "weight loss pills", which saddens me no end. 

But they still have their original Red Liniment, which I used 40 years ago for all my sparring aches and pains and which worked great; their Petro-Carbo and Menthol-Camphor. All great stuff, with little if any artificial ingredients.



> I have probably been in every multi-level marketing company there is, and most of them have wonderful products, but it is hard to build an income with them, because you just keep losing people, and people is what they are built on. I still think the concept is the best one out there, since it is usually products made in America, and we help other people earn money, and not some giant corporation like Walmart.



That's interesting that you've been in so many - you must have some stories to tell!



> I love Amway, and still have my old ClearTrac vacuum cleaner that I bought over 20 years ago, and it will probably outlast me, it is such a great product. All the Amway products were excellent, just not affordable to the common person at retail prices.



You're one of the few people I've ever heard speak well of the vacuum cleaner. Most people claim it's heavy as a cannonball and severely overpriced, but perhaps that's why it's lasted so long for you. 

Thanks for the feedback!


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## Happyflowerlady

Well, now you have me started on MLM, you may wish you had not opened this subject. I think that it has the best potential of getting good products distributed, while also giving about anyone a way to make money. It has the benefits of having ones own store, without having to have the store. The problem is that almost everything can be sent here from China, and sold at Walmart a lot cheaper, and even though we all complain about the shoddy products, we still shop at the discount stores.

I remember that Watkins Linament.....it has the best smell in the world ! I used to just open it to sniff the bottle, even when I didn't need the Linament.  I looked at the webpage, and it does look like they have updated things, but capitalized on the "old-fashioned look" for the bottles and labels. When they sold door to door, they probably went to more farm homes, and so they carried the pet products, which were a big seller at the time. Too bad they discontinued them, because it IS a huge market.
I really like the Melaleuca line of products, and I am signed up with them, but not buying the products right now, until I can make headway on finances again. They also carry a good line of health products, as well as pet items.

As for the ClearTrac, it certainly is heavy, but not as heavy as a Kirby, which is the ultimate in worthless and overpriced vacuums, as far as I am concerned.
 When the salesman demonstrates a Kirby, they use a small cloth filter, and change it all the time to show the customer how well it picks up dirt, but once you buy it and use it with a bag, it is pretty well clogged up by the time it is a third full, and has lost most of its power. 
Plus , the carpet cleaning attachment leaves all kinds of soap in the carpet, so it just gets dirty again. I used to sell steam cleaners, and always could tell where the people had Kirby's, their carpet was so full of soap suds when I demonstrated the Thermax.


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## SifuPhil

Happyflowerlady said:


> Well, now you have me started on MLM, you may wish you had not opened this subject. I think that it has the best potential of getting good products distributed, while also giving about anyone a way to make money. It has the benefits of having ones own store, without having to have the store. The problem is that almost everything can be sent here from China, and sold at Walmart a lot cheaper, and even though we all complain about the shoddy products, we still shop at the discount stores.



Well, I for one do not. I prefer paying more for something of quality rather than getting a "bargain" that lets me down, and I've experienced that with food, cars, weapons and women. :beguiled:



> I remember that Watkins Linament.....it has the best smell in the world ! I used to just open it to sniff the bottle, even when I didn't need the Linament.  I looked at the webpage, and it does look like they have updated things, but capitalized on the "old-fashioned look" for the bottles and labels. When they sold door to door, they probably went to more farm homes, and so they carried the pet products, which were a big seller at the time. Too bad they discontinued them, because it IS a huge market.



When / if I join up I'll probably first get just a few items that I use everyday - soaps and spices, stuff like that. Then I'll go for one of their "Watkinize Your Home" kits that have 50 or so of their products, just so I can get a handle on them as well. I'm not stocking-up though, as I'm going to be primarily an online distributor and will probably focus more on the business opp. than actual retailing.



> I really like the Melaleuca line of products, and I am signed up with them, but not buying the products right now, until I can make headway on finances again. They also carry a good line of health products, as well as pet items.



I've heard of them but have absolutely no knowledge of them, so that's another piece of research I have to do.



> As for the ClearTrac, it certainly is heavy, but not as heavy as a Kirby, which is the ultimate in worthless and overpriced vacuums, as far as I am concerned.
> When the salesman demonstrates a Kirby, they use a small cloth filter, and change it all the time to show the customer how well it picks up dirt, but once you buy it and use it with a bag, it is pretty well clogged up by the time it is a third full, and has lost most of its power.
> Plus , the carpet cleaning attachment leaves all kinds of soap in the carpet, so it just gets dirty again. I used to sell steam cleaners, and always could tell where the people had Kirby's, their carpet was so full of soap suds when I demonstrated the Thermax.



I was spoiled by commercial vacuums from my cleaning business, so most of the residential models are just so much noise to me. My Windsors had 1000-watt motors, 50' cords and could be thrown in and out of trucks after being run for 8 hours every night and keep coming back day after day. Sure, they were $700 each, but I think a lot of the higher-end residential models are more expensive than that these days and work half as well.


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## Anne

Good for them, CeeCee!!  Phil, did you ever get going on this and how did it go??  I used to use some Amway and liked it, but it can get expensive.  Watkins had good products, too.
I've never sold anything, as I couldn't unless I really believed in it, and don't like asking people for money for anything.  Someone mentioned Home Interior; lol, and I remember those parties.  A few years ago our daughter found a popular picture they sold, and had to bring it to me   it is still hanging in hubby's shop.


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## Diwundrin

Ozarkgal said:


> Years ago, I tried selling "Home Interiors" merchandise.  This was interior decorating items sold on the party plan.  Sooner or later you run out or burn out of parties.  The major downside was that you took the orders at the party and didn't collect the money until you delivered the product.  Lots of ladies had buyers remorse after the party wine wore off before delivery and renigged on their order.  You were stuck with the crap and the only way to recoup your money was to resell it at another party, because they had a no return policy...easy way to go broke!  The woman that I was under did very well with it she had a large group under her and she earned  major trips, fur coat, and I think even a car.



What OG said.
I never did it personally,  but from observation the only women who did really well long term at that gig were the  'Charisma Queens' who flitted between clubs and groups and had a huge circle of society contacts. They had a vast pool of 'partiers' to fleece because you need lots of them, the friendship attrition rate can be very high.  
They also had enough 'social clout' to make people think twice about reneging on orders. They were smiling standover heavies in high heels.

It's not a game for the faint hearted or conscience stricken, and it won't win friends, but you know that already.


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## jrfromafar

In five words I can explain the good, bad & ugly about MMM. 

"Anything works if you do"


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## SifuPhil

Anne said:


> Phil, did you ever get going on this and how did it go??  I used to use some Amway and liked it, but it can get expensive.  Watkins had good products, too.



I had a fairly early indoctrination into MLM when my high-school buddy and sparring partner got into Amway (the pre-lawsuit and name-change Amway, when they were still claiming they were squeaky clean).

He would NOT let up! Constantly wanted to "show me the plan" and discussing how I had to be the one to determine my financial future. It finally got to the point where I began distancing myself from him, finding excuses not to spar, forgetting to go out to the bar with him, because I KNEW it was only going to turn into another sales spiel. 

The quality of the few things I purchased from him was about equal to what I was already purchasing at the store, but as you said the prices were atrocious. That's how they paid for their pyramid. 

Watkins is a much better-run company and I do really believe in their products, to the point where I joined up late last year (see post earlier in this thread) just to be able to buy their products, so I'm only using it as a buyer's club, not as a salesman nor as a recruiter of an empire. 

The great majority of MLM tactics leave a bad taste in my mouth. The owners and highly-placed salesmen of the system will claim all you have to do is "share the experience / fun / product / opportunity" with everyone you know. Yeah, that's great, but what then? Then you have to go beyond your circle and hunt down fresh prospects.

I've read the personal memoirs of many people that started off in MLM and rose to upper-level positions, only to give it all up and write an exposé of the system. The companies, with few exceptions, all use the same churn-and-burn tactics and display all the scruples of a horny dog.

I believe that SHD has already encountered some legal problems from Origami Owl.


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## jrfromafar

SifuPhil said:


> I had a fairly early indoctrination into MLM when my high-school buddy and sparring partner got into Amway (the pre-lawsuit and name-change Amway, when they were still claiming they were squeaky clean).
> 
> He would NOT let up! Constantly wanted to "show me the plan" and discussing how I had to be the one to determine my financial future. It finally got to the point where I began distancing myself from him, finding excuses not to spar, forgetting to go out to the bar with him, because I KNEW it was only going to turn into another sales spiel.
> 
> The quality of the few things I purchased from him was about equal to what I was already purchasing at the store, but as you said the prices were atrocious. That's how they paid for their pyramid.
> 
> Watkins is a much better-run company and I do really believe in their products, to the point where I joined up late last year (see post earlier in this thread) just to be able to buy their products, so I'm only using it as a buyer's club, not as a salesman nor as a recruiter of an empire.
> 
> The great majority of MLM tactics leave a bad taste in my mouth. The owners and highly-placed salesmen of the system will claim all you have to do is "share the experience / fun / product / opportunity" with everyone you know. Yeah, that's great, but what then? Then you have to go beyond your circle and hunt down fresh prospects.
> 
> I've read the personal memoirs of many people that started off in MLM and rose to upper-level positions, only to give it all up and write an exposé of the system. The companies, with few exceptions, all use the same churn-and-burn tactics and display all the scruples of a horny dog.
> 
> I believe that SHD has already encountered some legal problems from Origami Owl.



Yep, what your friend did to you, is what you'd have to do to everyone you know. Just "share the experience" - what he didn't tell you is you'll have to eat it, drink it, sleep with it, - in other words marry it in order to make any money. And everyone you recruit will become fodder for the higher ups. 

By the way, I have a product I'd like to share, it's called "miracle manure". You won't believe what this stuff will do....



Spoiler


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## Anne

Yeah, those companies kinda remind me of how they push the school kids selling things; for band, uniforms, sports, etc., etc.  They have them go to family first, then friends, and on down the line.  There's contests to see who can sell the most, and a not-so-hot prize for doing so.  Why not just ask for donations?! 

Wow jr, that looks like a pile of.....oh, wait.....


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## jrfromafar

Anne said:


> Wow jr, that looks like a pile of.....oh, wait.....



my off beat sense of humor making a jab at MMM ...  oh well 

[_the last time he was seen he was in the corner hysterically laughing like a mad man"..._


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## Happyflowerlady

While I agree that the system of harrassing all your friends to join your MLM organization is a not a good way to go about things, I DO think that , by and large, MLM is a viable way of marketing a product. I think the key is making the opportunity available to other people that are actually interested in the products, or in the MLM marketing system itself. 

The huge corporations that manufacture and sell most of the products in America, are also the ones lobbying in Congress to pass the controls on products, such as allowing GMO foods, and using questionable food additives.
Many of the companies who use MLM produce quality products, and rather than having to start stores to sell those products, they pay commissions to people like you and me, for marketing the products.
 Peronally, I like this idea, and would as soon support a company that is producing a product that is healthier, than one that sells cheap products at cheap prices. 

The wholesale price of the products are usually affordable, and it is the retail prices that are too high to easily sell the product. However, when people sign up, and become a wholesale customer, and the company pays a small rebate to the person who signed them up, everyone wins. The company makes sales, the signee gets good prices for quality products, and the person who took the time to sign them up also gets a further discount on their own products.

One company that I really like is the Melaleuca company. They have a system that is NOT MLM, so there is no selling required. You can sign up as a retail customer, and pay full price for delivered products, or you can then "sponsor" other retail customers, and receive a discounted retail price for your own products, and an override on what your sponsored customers purchase. 
Basically, you sign up to buy your own products, and then sign up others who also want to just buy their own products; so there is none of the issues that come with being an "independant distributor" in an MLM company, such as Amway.

There is always a good side and a bad side to everything, and in this case, I think the good side outweighs the bad side.


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## SifuPhil

If memory serves though, Happy, didn't Melaleuca undergo some investigations a while back? I see they have more than a few negative reviews on review websites such as this one.


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## jrfromafar

Happyflowerlady said:


> While I agree that the system of harrassing all your friends to join your MLM organization is a not a good way to go about things, I DO think that , by and large, MLM is a viable way of marketing a product. I think the key is making the opportunity available to other people that are actually interested in the products, or in the MLM marketing system itself.
> 
> The huge corporations that manufacture and sell most of the products in America, are also the ones lobbying in Congress to pass the controls on products, such as allowing GMO foods, and using questionable food additives.
> Many of the companies who use MLM produce quality products, and rather than having to start stores to sell those products, they pay commissions to people like you and me, for marketing the products.
> Peronally, I like this idea, and would as soon support a company that is producing a product that is healthier, than one that sells cheap products at cheap prices.
> 
> The wholesale price of the products are usually affordable, and it is the retail prices that are too high to easily sell the product. However, when people sign up, and become a wholesale customer, and the company pays a small rebate to the person who signed them up, everyone wins. The company makes sales, the signee gets good prices for quality products, and the person who took the time to sign them up also gets a further discount on their own products.
> 
> One company that I really like is the Melaleuca company. They have a system that is NOT MLM, so there is no selling required. You can sign up as a retail customer, and pay full price for delivered products, or you can then "sponsor" other retail customers, and receive a discounted retail price for your own products, and an override on what your sponsored customers purchase.
> Basically, you sign up to buy your own products, and then sign up others who also want to just buy their own products; so there is none of the issues that come with being an "independant distributor" in an MLM company, such as Amway.
> 
> There is always a good side and a bad side to everything, and in this case, I think the good side outweighs the bad side.



Your assessment of MMM is certainly a lot more balanced than mine. Irony here - I've been involved with Meleleuca products since, believe it or not, 1992. You're right, the products are very good. The only problem is to be a member you have to purchase a minimum amount of product every month and consequently it ends up being expensive as just about every cupboard around here is crammed with unused Gold Bars (the soap), tooth paste, Solumil or other product - we even have UNOPENED boxes of the 'minimum product' they send every month if we fail to call in our order. When the kids come to visit my wife pawns it off on them (whether or not they really want it) so even though we like the products in reality it has cost us a bundle over the years.

And I do admit my experience is skewed.  I signed up with World Ventures a few years back - all I had to do was 'shred the experience' - and in doing so I worked myself silly pestering every one I knew eating drinking and sleeping it while I was mesmerized by the few at the top that were making tons of money. Setting up meetings, tying up evenings several times a week - ha - not work? In the end I decided it's just not worth it. - and I vowed, never again!!!


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## SifuPhil

jrfromafar said:


> Your assessment of MMM is certainly a lot more balanced than mine. Irony here - I've been involved with Meleleuca products since, believe it or not, 1992. You're right, the products are very good. The only problem is to be a member you have to purchase a minimum amount of product every month and consequently it ends up being expensive as just about every cupboard around here is crammed with unused Gold Bars (the soap), tooth paste, Solumil or other product - we even have UNOPENED boxes of the 'minimum product' they send every month if we fail to call in our order. When the kids come to visit my wife pawns it off on them (whether or not they really want it) so even though we like the products in reality it has cost us a bundle over the years.
> 
> And I do admit my experience is skewed.  I signed up with World Ventures a few years back - all I had to do was 'shred the experience' - and in doing so I worked myself silly pestering every one I knew eating drinking and sleeping it while I was mesmerized by the few at the top that were making tons of money. Setting up meetings, tying up evenings several times a week - ha - not work? In the end I decided it's just not worth it. - and I vowed, never again!!!



This sounds SO much like the autobiography of an ex-Amway Double Diamond I read a while back. His entire life was taken over by the quest for more recruits - his wife almost divorced him, he started getting medical problems, he got involved in lawsuits - he finally left, but he said it was like leaving a cult. For the first few weeks after leaving he didn't know what to do with his life, he had no friends outside the organization, they were even sending goons after him ...


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## Happyflowerlady

SifuPhil said:


> If memory serves though, Happy, didn't Melaleuca undergo some investigations a while back? I see they have more than a few negative reviews on review websites such as this one.



The webpage you posted is one of those websites that have "disaster stories" from people who had a bad experience with a company, and I believe that you could put in just about ANY corporation name in their search, and find people who have had a bad experience with that company.
The Better Business Bureau rated Melaleuca at a 3.5/5, which seems to be like a very fair rating to me. 
http://www.bbb.org/boise/business-r...n-idaho-falls-id-1000001768/customer-reviews/

With so many MLM companies out there, there are bound to be some good ones and some scams. Kind of like finding a real friend, or a spouse; you might go through some of the wrong ones before finding the one that is right for you.

And yes, Melaleuca does ask for a minimum order to stay active and get the lowest prices, but you are not required to do that. I had to put mine on the basic membership when we moved out to the country because all the money was being used up by the moving itself. 
Now that I am pretty much moved back to Huntsville, and stabilizing; I will probably reactivate my membership again.
 I really like the vitamins that they have, and never had any trouble in using my monthly products when I was buying them, and because of the concentration of the products, many actually saved me money over purchasing them from the store.

I am certainly not promoting MLM as being right for everyone, but neither do I think all MLM companies are a ripoff.
 I think if the company has products that you enjoy using, and not just something you are looking at as a way to get rich, they can be a very good thing, and also support an American-made business.


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## SifuPhil

Not for nothing (as we used to say back in the 'hood) but Better Business Bureaus have all the striking power of a powder puff.



The BBB is pretty much viewed as a paper tiger by most businesses I'm acquainted with. 

But yes, I agree that there have to be some good MLMs out there - I've just always had a hard time finding one that wasn't warped in _some_ way, and always to the detriment to the distributor/member. 

Remember also that I'm a monk = not many friends or family = a tough sell.


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## jrfromafar

SifuPhil said:


> Not for nothing (as we used to say back in the 'hood) but Better Business Bureaus have all the striking power of a powder puff.
> 
> View attachment 4588
> 
> The BBB is pretty much viewed as a paper tiger by most businesses I'm acquainted with.
> 
> But yes, I agree that there have to be some good MLMs out there - I've just always had a hard time finding one that wasn't warped in _some_ way, and always to the detriment to the distributor/member.
> 
> Remember also that I'm a monk = not many friends or family = a tough sell.



That's the whole deal about MMM - at these meetings, they have you write down a list of everyone you know - friends, family, even the people you do business with. No one is exempt. Instead of friends being just friends, you see the $$ dollar signs in their eyes. They'll teach you to tell them just enough to make them feel they have to come and hear this great opportunity. "You like to travel don't you? Here's a way to travel for free". Yeah right. To make money you have to live in the hype. Talk about sapping your energy. 

As for good MMMs - yes, perhaps decent products. if it truly is a product based business and not based upon recruitment fees. But with Melaleuca - the thought comes to me - if it's so good, why isn't it in the store right next to Colgate and Proctor and Gamble products? Because their concept is to get people on auto debit - that sucking sound is the money being sucked right out of your checking account !!!! I'd rather just go to the store and buy what I need and want !


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## SifuPhil

jrfromafar said:


> That's the whole deal about MMM - at these meetings, they have you write down a list of everyone you know - friends, family, even the people you do business with. No one is exempt. Instead of friends being just friends, you see the $$ dollar signs in their eyes. They'll teach you to tell them just enough to make them feel they have to come and hear this great opportunity. "You like to travel don't you? Here's a way to travel for free". Yeah right. To make money you have to live in the hype. Talk about sapping your energy.



And they even go beyond that - they teach techniques where you embarrass, taunt and bully the prospects ... "you must not love your family, since you're passing up this wonderful opportunity". 

Like I said, my friend got into it and I actually SAW his personality change. It was like watching him being absorbed by an alien - very scary.



> As for good MMMs - yes, perhaps decent products. if it truly is a product based business and not based upon recruitment fees. But with Melaleuca - the thought comes to me - if it's so good, why isn't it in the store right next to Colgate and Proctor and Gamble products? Because their concept is to get people on auto debit - that sucking sound is the money being sucked right out of your checking account !!!! I'd rather just go to the store and buy what I need and want !



The guys I checked out, Watkins, have a program where they place a few select items into places like Wal-Mart and Walgreens, supposedly to educate the public about what wonderful items they are. The bad part is that the distributors lose out on sales through this tactic, even though the home office swears they don't. So you get undercut by your company - not very reassuring.


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## jrfromafar

SifuPhil said:


> And they even go beyond that - they teach techniques where you embarrass, taunt and bully the prospects ... "you must not love your family, since you're passing up this wonderful opportunity".
> 
> Like I said, my friend got into it and I actually SAW his personality change. It was like watching him being absorbed by an alien - very scary.



I don't doubt it. Then - once you deplete your "circle of influence" and realize there is no free lunch in this thing, if/when you toss in the towel since it's COSTING you money instead of making you money, you have to walk around with egg on your face when you come in contact with your friends - who have gone on the defense when they see you!! Who needs that!


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## SifuPhil

Yep, totally agreed.

It's a shame because even if there are honest companies out there, the industry as a whole has such a bad rep from years of abuse that people like you and I would be afraid to get involved in it.


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## jrfromafar

As per "Miracle Manure", and MMM, here's an article I wrote some time back:


Having background in all sorts of sales including MLM, I have learned the cardinal rule. If you are considering MLM, the sooner you learn this the better: “Anything works if you do”. Do you get it? If you work hard enough, you can make a living selling horse manure. Package it up, get some gimmick, and go for the gusto.

Years ago I sold life insurance. I represented a company that offered rates so low that it stripped the socks off of the Big Boys that were building the sky scrapers in Manhattan and Chicago. I would tell people, “when you strain your neck so much that your lower lip get sunburned looking up at the top of the skyscraper, ask yourself where they get the money to build that monstrosity- it’s overpriced policies!”. Yet those companies stay in business, and keep building skyscrapers, year after year, by revenue from overpriced policies. I soon realized that it’s just agents out there overcoming the negative factor. I was told that very few life insurance agents work forty hours a week. Why? Because very, VERY few people can stand the negative factor. If they could, everyone would be doing it, and making a six figure income. If you’re considering buying into a MLM system, be prepared for a whopping negative factor. That is why the failure rate is so high, most people cannot overcome it.

Before you plop down your money, be sure to read the fine print, the INCOME DISCLOSURE STATEMENT. By law, MLM companies are supposed to show you their IDS. You can see for yourself the percentage of people making any substantial money.

As far as MLM is concerned, there is no reason why you cannot be one of the one or two percent of the people that make any substantial amount of money. If you don’t like those odds, forget it. Don’t get mesmerized by the hype- the former waiter telling you that he is making more in one month than he made all year in his former job. Is it possible that you can make that kind of money? You certainly can, IF you can beat the odds, and overcome the negative factor. Again, anything works if you do. Be prepared to eat, drink and sleep the program. Are you willing to do that? If not, forget it.

Another lesson that it’s important to learn is, ‘a new broom always sweeps clean’. It’s always great at first. You can eat, drink and sleep just about anything for a couple of months. But if you’re going to make this work, be willing to go the distance. In MLM, it’s all about leveraging yourself. Nothing wrong with that. But don’t think you can do it long enough to get some other people kicking butt so you can sit on the beach sipping your margaritas!


So if you don’t like the odds, and you’re not willing to go the distance, FORGET IT. Go sell horse manure.

Speaking of, have you heard about MIRICLE MANURE? With the downturn in the economy, everyone is bound to start a garden, right? This is the ticket… MIRACLE MANURE is what every garden needs. Get started now, only $399.99 for your own personal horse manure business. .ww.invest-in-shi……com....


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## Katybug

Interesting thread....I was glad to read that someone actually uses/used Amway products.  I have never had anyone approach me to sell me anything they make, only to entice me to sell (in the most devious ways at that!)  Selling anything multi-level is just not me.  But I've always wondered why their products weren't promoted more, don't know anyone who has ever mentioned using them.


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## Jillaroo

_There is one product i would buy from Amway and that is their toothpaste, it is brilliant you only need a small amount and no after taste if you wish to have a coffee or tea straight after, it may seem more expensive but as you only need about half of a pea size it works out reasonable._


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## SifuPhil

As per jr's excellent article, you have to have the proper personality to succeed (or even survive) in MLM. I've never had that personality so I know to stay away from it.

Actually I shy away from most things that have a 1% success ratio, especially when they demand mindless adherence to a corporate culture.


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## Katybug

SifuPhil said:


> And they even go beyond that - they teach techniques where you embarrass, taunt and bully the prospects ... "you must not love your family, since you're passing up this wonderful opportunity".
> 
> Like I said, my friend got into it and I actually SAW his personality change. It was like watching him being absorbed by an alien - very scary.
> 
> This is all so true, Phil.  I've observed a few who were so brainwashed, you could hardly bear to be around them...definite personality changes.  And then those that wised up and ran like hell!
> 
> 
> 
> The guys I checked out, Watkins, have a program where they place a few select items into places like Wal-Mart and Walgreens, supposedly to educate the public about what wonderful items they are. The bad part is that the distributors lose out on sales through this tactic, even though the home office swears they don't. So you get undercut by your company - not very reassuring.




This is all so true, Phil, re Amway. I've observed a few who were so brainwashed, you could hardly bear to be around them...definite personality changes.  And then those that wised up and ran like hell!


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## RRE59

My wife has been involved in an MLM for about a year. There are some characteristics of MLM companies that you should look for to make sure that there is a real opportunity. 
1) the product should be attractive to consumers even if there was not a business opportunity
2) there should not be a "buy in" just to become a distributor
3) find a company that has less than 150,000 existing distributors
MLM can be a good business but be careful if you are told it is easy money or quick money


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## LogicsHere

I knew a long time ago that I wasn't a sales person and all of these appeared to be scams to me with the only one making any money the first guy who started it. I'd rather take my chances with self publishing.


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## Mirabilis

A couple who happened to be accountants hired on a consulting basis approached me once and invited me to a business opportunity presentation.  I had a high level of respect for them and I was flattered by the invitation.  What I resented the most was the level of deception really.  They admitted they would never let anyone know ahead of time that this was related to Amway because people would not want to come.  He borrowed someone's Mercedes Benz to make it look like he was making a lot of money already.  I was pretty disappointed by the way they approached this and felt dumb sitting there knowing they basically lied to get me to be in that room.  Was this something that I wanted to do to other people in order to make lots of money? No - money is not everything and I want to be happy whatever it is I do for a living.


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## 70sdiver

I know of one multi level marketing company thats great.You really dont even need to sign up anyone to make good money tho I have signed up a couple ppl over the last few years.It's advocare.I use a lot of the products and then people started asking me what I was using I was losing a little weight so I signed up and started selling a little here and there I have had some pretty good months and can see where if you wanted to sample the products you could generate a good amount of income.I went to one house meeting after signing up but it wasnt something I wanted to do .never had a hassle from any of my upline.


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