# Boston Hospital refuses Heart transplants on Un-vaccinated patients..



## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2022)

What do you think, do you agree on their policy..?  personally I'm astonished that someone as young  as 31 would rather die from heart failure than have a vaccine.. but that's just my opinion..

_A Boston-area hospital said it will not perform a heart transplant on a patient who refuses to get a Covid-19 vaccination.

DJ Ferguson, 31, was previously prioritized for a heart transplant at Brigham and Women’s hospital, but is no longer eligible as he refuses to get vaccinated, said Ferguson’s family, according to a report by CBS Boston.
“It’s kind of against his basic principles – he doesn’t believe in it,” said David Ferguson, his father. “It’s a policy they are enforcing and so, because he won’t get the shot, they took him off the list [for] a heart transplant.”
Brigham and Women’s explained its reasoning in a statement: “Like many other transplant programs in the United States – the Covid-19 vaccine is one of several vaccines and lifestyle behaviors required for transplant candidates in the Mass General Brigham system in order to create both the best chance for a successful operation and also the patient’s survival a_fter transplantation.”

_Other medical experts have declared their support of the hospital’s policy, noting that the immune system is extremely weak after a transplant, making vaccinations all the more important.

“Post any transplant, kidney, heart whatever, your immune system is shut off. The flu could kill you, a cold could kill you, Covid could kill you,” said Dr Arthur Caplan, the head of medical ethics at NYU Grossman School of Medicine, told CBS Boston.

“The organs are scarce: we are not going to distribute them to someone who has a poor chance of living when others who are vaccinated have a better chance post-surgery of surviving.”_


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/25/heart-transplant-patient-refusing-covid-19-vaccine


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## JaniceM (Jan 25, 2022)

I think that goes too far.  Just because he's stupid, it doesn't mean they should just let him die.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

Brigham & Women's is one of the best hospitals in the country.  I agree with them 100%, not only for his own self but especially for the medical personnel cutting open his sorry heart.  He's like an alcoholic wanting a liver transplant to get more time with the booze.  The vaccination is not worth this; he made his choice to die.  At least he's not jumping in front of a train ruining the commute during rush hour.


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## hollydolly (Jan 25, 2022)

Could it be that the patient isn't understanding the severity of his situation...?.. rhetorical question clearly..


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I think that goes too far.  *Just because he's stupid*, it doesn't mean they should just let him die.


So many stupid people have been dying from Covid maybe it's a blessing in disguise.  Stupid people are ruining our democracy.


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## Jeni (Jan 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> What do you think, do you agree on their policy..?  personally I'm astonished that someone as young  as 31 would rather die from heart failure than have a vaccine.. but that's just my opinion..
> 
> _A Boston-area hospital said it will not perform a heart transplant on a patient who refuses to get a Covid-19 vaccination._
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/25/heart-transplant-patient-refusing-covid-19-vaccine


We just had the thread on the pig heart transplant maybe he could qualify for that type if they have more genetically altered pig hearts in the pipeline.
It says he  refuses to get shot........ i would think if you were that ill they could not give you one if you were to change your mind...

i know they ask if you had symptoms but i was just discussing with a neighbor how many people may have gotten vaccines when they had Covid but either did not know or were A symptomatic   ..... her niece just got a shot while in the midst of the illness 

So if they say it makes symptoms milder why would they not offer as a Treatment for those already ill?


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> Could it be that the patient isn't understanding the severity of his situation...?.. rhetoric question clearly..


Is he mentally challenged?  If so, might not he have guardianship over him?  No, holly dear, he's an American Idiot, like the song says.


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## drifter (Jan 25, 2022)

They know best how to run a hospital. No socks, no shoes, no service. Or? ?


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## Mandee (Jan 25, 2022)

But of course - a heart will be readily available to all those who refused to obey the lockdown rules, who refuse to wear a face mask or social distance and who's only reason was that the rules violated their human rights and their right to freedom.

Time these people got off their high horses and stopped pointing their self righteous fingers at the unvaccinated, many of who'm have far more genuine reasons for their refusal. 

It is NOT JUST THE UNVACCINATED TO BLAME FOR THE SPREAD OF COVID !!!!!


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## AnnieA (Jan 25, 2022)

Transplants are already limited for factors like smoking, obesity, diabetes control so this is in line with those limitations.  I'd personally want a bit of time between vaccination and transplant so the immune system has time to adjust before it's hit with the challenge of a transplant.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

This person has made their medical decision so than it is up to what the hospital and doctors to make a medical decision on the situation and they did just that. There really isn't much else to be said. The two made their decisions and that was the outcome.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Mandee said:


> But of course - a heart will be readily available to all those who refused to obey the lockdown rules, who refuse to wear a face mask or social distance and who's only reason was that the rules violated their human rights and their right to freedom.


I am wondering where you are getting your information from on this. My husband works in a hospital setting as an Anesthesiologist and has told me countless times that ER patients have been escorted out by security and refused treatment because they refused to wear masks while in the building. Whether they are vaccinated or unvaccinated people it did not matter one bit. So everyone has to follow these rules and if someone violates them whether they are vaccinated or not they will be dealt with accordingly within a hospital setting.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Mandee said:


> But of course - a heart will be readily available to all those who refused to obey the lockdown rules, who refuse to wear a face mask or social distance and who's only reason was that the rules violated their human rights and their right to freedom.
> 
> Time these people got off their high horses and stopped pointing their self righteous fingers at the unvaccinated, many of who'm have far more genuine reasons for their refusal.
> 
> It is NOT JUST THE UNVACCINATED TO BLAME FOR THE SPREAD OF COVID !!!!!


^^^ A thinker is the worst threat to a Covid Blame Gamer.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

win231 said:


> ^^^ A thinker is the worst threat to a Covid Blame Gamer.


Doesn't matter.  DJ is still not getting the heart that will let him live, which is the point of this thread.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

If this story is true, it reminded me of that baseball player - Mickey Mantle who needed a liver transplant due mainly to alcohol abuse.
He had money, so the hospital put him ahead of everyone else on the transplant list.....including children who needed liver transplants through no fault of their own.  Some of the children died while waiting.  Mantle died soon after the surgery; his health wasn't good enough to benefit from the transplant.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> I am wondering where you are getting your information from on this. My husband works in a hospital setting as an Anesthesiologist and has told me countless times that ER patients have been escorted out by security and refused treatment because they refused to wear masks while in the building. Whether they are vaccinated or unvaccinated people it did not matter one bit. So everyone has to follow these rules and if someone violates them whether they are vaccinated or not they will be dealt with accordingly within a hospital setting.


Mandee doesn't mean in a hospital setting only.

People who have refused to wear a mask, or social distance, refused to lockdown during the pandemic.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 25, 2022)

Oh look we're back to name calling.
"Stupid."

This person's opinion doesn't fall in line with yours so therefore he's _stupid.   _


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Mandee doesn't mean in a hospital setting only.
> 
> People who have refused to wear a mask, or social distance, refused to lockdown during the pandemic.


That can also work both ways as well. I know many vaccinated people who have gotten increasingly frustrated with masks, social distancing, and lock downs during all of this. I think this whole thing is weighing a lot on everyone. For me if I see a person inside a grocery store not wearing a mask and there is a mandate for wearing them indoors, I don't automatically say Oh look at that unvaccinated person not wearing their mask infecting everyone. What I get angry with is the managers of the store not enforcing the policy. I have no clue if the person is vaccinated or unvaccinated.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> What I get angry with is the managers of the store not enforcing the policy. I have no clue if the person is vaccinated or unvaccinated.


Sarah, the mgrs. have no clue if the maskless person is carrying a weapon and looking for a reason to use it.  Some people w/out masks are wanting a response so they can fight and argue and proclaim their freedoms.  IOW, Anti-Social.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Oh look we're back to name calling.
> "Stupid."
> 
> This person's opinion doesn't fall in line with yours so therefore he's _stupid.  _


Becky you are correct here and you know where I stand on this. The person made a decision on their own and they have to live up to that decision. That is the bottom line of this whole thing. The hospital is most likely following protocol to all of this and made their decision.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Oh look we're back to name calling.
> "Stupid."
> 
> This person's opinion doesn't fall in line with yours so therefore he's _stupid.  _


Put-down artists have no other way to feel good about themselves.
Funny how they'll complain when someone retaliates.   Much like the schoolyard bully who hits a classmate, then when the classmate hits him back, he runs to the teacher crying that "He hit me."


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Sarah, the mgrs. have no clue if the maskless person is carrying a weapon and looking for a reason to use it.  Some people w/out masks are wanting a response so they can fight and argue and proclaim their freedoms.  IOW, Anti-Social.


Still if the store has a policy it has to be followed and the managers are the ones to make sure it is followed.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> Still if the store has a policy it has to be followed and the managers are the ones to make sure it is followed.


I think they are afraid.  Since when did store personnel become cops?  There is danger.  Recently, restaurant people in NYC were physically attacked trying to enforce the mask rule.  Perhaps a large store has the means to hire security.  I definitely agree with you in principle, it's just that I know too many people these days are not playing with a full deck.


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## Pepper (Jan 25, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Oh look we're back to name calling.
> "Stupid."
> This person's opinion doesn't fall in line with yours so therefore he's _stupid.  _


Stick with the OP, and be open minded for this situation only.  The way this DJ gets to live is if he gets vaccinated.  It's an extraordinary occurrence.  What is his life worth to him?  He might not be stupid, but he might be.

If he wants to live he must "fall in line."  This is emergency medicine, not going to a football game.


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## Don M. (Jan 25, 2022)

It would seem to be a waste of a good heart to try to transplant it into a patient which had minimal chances of survival.  If being unvaccinated makes such a medical procedure unlikely to succeed, the doctors made the right decision.  

Personally, I think that if an unvaccinated person shows up at a hospital, with Covid, they should be given a free bottle of aspirin, and sent on their way.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I think they are afraid.  Since when did store personnel become cops?  There is danger.  Recently, restaurant people in NYC were physically attacked trying to enforce the mask rule.  Perhaps a large store has the means to hire security.  I definitely agree with you in principle, it's just that I know too many people these days are not playing with a full deck.


I totally agree with you on this. This entire thing has gotten way out of hand. When people cannot even safely feel like they can enforce there jobs something is seriously wrong.


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## JaniceM (Jan 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I think they are afraid.  Since when did store personnel become cops?  There is danger.  Recently, restaurant people in NYC were physically attacked trying to enforce the mask rule.  Perhaps a large store has the means to hire security.  I definitely agree with you in principle, it's just that I know too many people these days are not playing with a full deck.


Not to go off-topic, but addressing your post- in some instances, individuals who work security in stores are off-duty police officers.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Don M. said:


> It would seem to be a waste of a good heart to try to transplant it into a patient which had minimal chances of survival.  If being unvaccinated makes such a medical procedure unlikely to succeed, the doctors made the right decision.
> 
> Personally, I think that if an unvaccinated person shows up at a hospital, with Covid, they should be given a free bottle of aspirin, and sent on their way.


Yes, it's a waste of a good heart to transplant it into a patient who has minimal chances of survival.
_But they will do it for a patient who has *money*_ - as they did to Mickey Mantle.  (post #15) sacrificing others who are more likely to benefit.
And they also did it for Steve Jobs - after he "anonymously"  donated $40 million to the hospital - with the same poor outcome - which was predictable.
I just recalled another example of money & greed:
Years ago, Garth Brooks donated $500,000 to have a cancer ward built in a hospital where his mother was treated for cancer before she died.  A few years later, he found out NOTHING had been built & the money went into some hospital associates' pockets.
Mr. Brooks sued the hospital & the judge made the thieves pay back DOUBLE the donated amount.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-suit-against-hospital-idUSTRE80O0BS20120125


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

win231 said:


> Yes, it's a waste of a good heart to transplant it into a patient who has minimal chances of survival.
> _But they will do it for a patient who has *money*_ - as they did to Mickey Mantle.  (post #15) sacrificing others who are more likely to benefit.
> And they also did it for Steve Jobs - after he "anonymously"  donated $40 million to the hospital - with the same poor outcome.


I agree with you 100% that money speaks loudly in the world and that is wrong in many ways and also in this sort of situation. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right.


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## Jeni (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> Still if the store has a policy it has to be followed and the managers are the ones to make sure it is followed.


It should have never been put on businesses to enforce any of this.....
Do you truly believe these folks are compensated enough to risk injury or whatever for a mask?     

Half the stores here ....the employees have mask lower then nose etc if manager does not correct that ........they certainly are not approaching a  unknown person not wearing one....
Many here just quit wearing them and no one seems to bother .....


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> Still if the store has a policy it has to be followed and the managers are the ones to make sure it is followed.


A manager is not paid to be a police officer.  Nor is he trained & he also is not equipped to enforce laws.  No badge, no gun, no authority.
People have been injured over stupid mask arguments.  Any manager who gets involved in one is a fool.

Years ago, I applied for & was hired in a clerical position - record keeping, computer inputting, data entry, etc. in a Government run 
Halfway House for inmates that were 6 months away from parole.  During my interview, I was told that I would have absolutely no interaction with inmates.
After I'd been working there for a month, my supervisor told me to assist with mandatory drug testing & she handed me an instruction sheet, which explained the procedure.  The instructions included, _"I must personally witness the urine sample enter the bottle."_
I told my supervisor, "My job duties don't include being in a small, confined bathroom with a dangerous prison inmate & watching him pee."
She said, "When we need help, you gotta help."  I told her_ "Get someone else to help."    _


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Jeni said:


> It should have never been put on businesses to enforce any of this.....
> Do you truly believe these folks are compensated enough to risk injury or whatever for a mask?
> 
> Half the stores here ....the employees have mask lower then nose etc if manager does not correct that ........they certainly are not approaching a  unknown person not wearing one....
> Many here just quit wearing them and no one seems to bother .....


I am not saying it is the job of the regular employees to do this. It is the job of the managers though of the stores to enforce it. Many businesses established there own mask policies and I imagine they came from the top of the chain. Unfortunately it is up to Middle Management to enforce it in the stores. I do understand because the craziness of this world today and how this has gotten out of hand the risks involved with telling someone to either wear a mask while in a store or please exit the store could turn ugly which I find ridiculous , but that is the way many people are today. So I totally understand both sides of this . I certainly wouldn't want to have to be a manager in a store and have to enforce it, but if I was being paid as one I guess I would deal with it. 

I also know what you mean about the employees wear the masks below their noses or not at all and that is also the fault of the managers. I would think it would be somewhat easier to talk with an employee about wearing a mask then a customer.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

win231 said:


> A manager is not paid to be a police officer.  Nor is he trained & he also is not equipped to enforce laws.  No badge, no gun, no authority.
> People have been injured over stupid mask arguments.  Any manager who gets involved in one is a fool.
> 
> Years ago, I applied for & was hired in a clerical position - record keeping, computer inputting, data entry, etc. in a Government run
> ...


The sad thing is it shouldn't even be a thought to any of that. If the policy to shop within the store states you have to wear a mask you either wear the mask for the time you are in the store or you go shopping somewhere else. Pretty simple. As stated in a previous post by someone else someone said some people neglect to wear a mask knowing full well the policy only to cause some sort of disturbance. That is entirely wrong.


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## Irwin (Jan 25, 2022)

This guy, DJ Ferguson, says vaccines are against his principles, or perhaps just this vaccine. He "doesn't believe in it," says his father.

He doesn't believe in the science behind the vaccine? Or is it a religious principle? I didn't see anything about his religion in the article, though. My guess is that the vaccine violates his political party's stance.

So getting a vaccine is "against his beliefs," but he doesn't have a problem with his heart being replaced with someone else's. What else goes against his beliefs? Antibiotics? I'm sure he'll have to take other medication to prevent his body from rejecting the new heart. Will taking those go against his beliefs? He'll no doubt give it serious thought as to what will be put into his body.

Or not.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Irwin said:


> This guy, DJ Ferguson, says vaccines are against his principles, or perhaps just this vaccine. He "doesn't believe in it," says his father.
> 
> He doesn't believe in the science behind the vaccine? Or is it a religious principle? I didn't see anything about his religion in the article, though. My guess is that the vaccine violates his political party's stance.
> 
> ...


You have fallen into the _"All or Nothing" _mindset.  We are free to choose which vaccines, drugs, or procedures we want.  It's "A la Carte."
The fact that someone doesn't trust _one _drug or procedure or vaccine doesn't mean they don't trust _any_ drug or procedure or vaccine.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> I totally agree with you on this. This entire thing has gotten way out of hand. When people cannot even safely feel like they can enforce there jobs something is seriously wrong.


I remember early on in the mask requirement reading about a bus driver who told 3 men entering the bus they had to wear a mask, one of them shot and killed him.

He was only following company rules and lost his life over it. So sad. 

I agree with wearing masks, but I do not agree that employees should be placed in a position to enforce that rule, it has become to dangerous.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> I remember early on in the mask requirement reading about a bus driver who told 3 men entering the bus they had to wear a mask, one of them shot and killed him.
> 
> He was only following company rules and lost his life over it. So sad.
> 
> I agree with wearing masks, but I do not agree that employees should be placed in a position to enforce that rule, it has become to dangerous.


The problem is people are getting tired of all of this. I am including in this statement many vaccinated people. I have heard many vaccinated & boosted people say why do I have to wear a mask. Well the answer is quite simple actual, you are first not completely immune to the virus and you wear the mask to keep yourself as safe as possibly from others who you may not know who are carrying the virus. 

It is very sad that people today seem to find argument or something to disagree with in just about everything. It seems like nowadays if someone does not think and believe the way you want them to believe then they are completely wrong and become the enemy. I have seen many friendly relationships lost over this ridiculous political crap and Covid crap. It is a down right shame.


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## Jeni (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> The sad thing is it shouldn't even be a thought to any of that. If the policy to shop within the store states you have to wear a mask you either wear the mask for the time you are in the store or you go shopping somewhere else. Pretty simple. As stated in a previous post by someone else someone said some people neglect to wear a mask knowing full well the policy only to cause some sort of disturbance. That is entirely wrong.


out of curiosity............ I reached out and checked with a Manager ( close friend) of a store that is one of the top 3 largest grocery chains in the US.
Their policy Was for a manager offer a mask  but if customer said they had exception etc walk away .....

Now policy is have some on hand in case a customer requests one but they are NOT allowed to say anything to them.  

they may put on signs it is store policy to encourage people to comply but they were told months ago to NOT engage....
Unless you work for or have access to a person people may assume what policy is


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## Irwin (Jan 25, 2022)

...


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

Jeni said:


> out of curiosity............ I reached out and checked with a Manager ( close friend) of a store that is one of the top 3 largest grocery chains in the US.
> Their policy Was for a manager offer a mask  but if customer said they had exception etc walk away .....
> 
> Now policy is have some on hand in case a customer requests one but they are NOT allowed to say anything to them.
> ...


Most stores have a sign before you enter the store that states before entering please have your mask on. Some of the larger stores such as Target and Walmart even have greeters when you enter the store. I have even seen security at those large stores as well around the entrance of the stores in my area. Now I would not expect the greeters to say a word to any customer walking into the store without a mask on if it was required. As for the Security workers I would hope they would say something. Now in my state these indoor mask mandates differ from county to county. For example, in my county there is no indoor mask mandate. As for Baltimore County, Howard County, Prince George's County(I believe) and Baltimore City they do have a mask mandate to wear a mask indoors. So if I go to Baltimore County then people should have them on indoors which is not always the case. I rarely travel to the other counties. My county there is no requirement. I am not sure how the other States work. As for managers approaching customers, you may be correct that they are just recommending them to either taking one that they offer and leaving it at that. I agree it is not worth getting into a huge argument or altercation in some incidents over something like that.


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## AnnieA (Jan 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Is he mentally challenged?  If so, might not he have guardianship over him?  No, holly dear, he's an American Idiot, like the song says.



Just as people all over the world who make poor health decisions. I hesitate to call them idiots because I've worked with them.  They're human and there are a lot of psychological barriers to good health practices of all sorts.

In the Western world, the majority of money spent in medical care is for obesity related illnesses ...and obesity just happens to be a risk factor for poor Covid-19 outcomes AND the obese are more likely not to produce an adequate immune response to vaccines.   Then there's smoking.  I can understand the people who say the unvaccinated should pay for all their medical expenses because I've long thought that lung cancer smokers should pay out of pocket, that alcoholics should pay for all their liver disease care--it's not what I truly want because I do realize to actually do so is morally wrong, but frustrating so I understand the intolerance with vaccine hesitency hough I think their thinking is immoral as well.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Just as people all over the world who make poor health decisions. I hesitate to call them idiots because I've worked with them.  They're human and there are a lot of psychological barriers to good health practices of all sorts.
> 
> In the Western world, the majority of money spent in medical care is for obesity related illnesses ...and obesity just happens to be a risk factor for poor Covid-19 outcomes AND the obese are more likely not to produce an adequate immune response to vaccines.   Then there's smoking.  I can understand the people who say the unvaccinated should pay for all their medical expenses because I've long thought that lung cancer smokers should pay out of pocket, that alcoholics should pay for all their liver disease care--it's not what I truly want because I do realize to actually do so is morally wrong, but frustrating so I understand the intolerance with vaccine hesitency hough I think their thinking is immoral as well.


I agree with you. It in my opinion is a poor health decision. To this person for whatever reason it was not. I have in my many years have made poor decisions along the way. Many to which my Mom and Dad told me upfront that I was not making a good decision. I had to learn for myself and the learning process whether it be a life situation or a health related situation sometimes you have to learn for yourself. 

That is the way I truly look at all of this. I have made my decisions about Covid itself and the vaccines whether someone agrees with my decisions on them it doesn't matter to me one bit. I will deal with the consequences of my decisions if there comes a time that there are any to deal with and they won't. The same goes for any other person. Sure I have thought about the consequences of the long term effects of the vaccine, but I weighed out my options at this time and made my decision. My decision was my own and not slanted because of any political agenda or conspiracy theory or anything on the media or anything. I weighed out the situation that was sitting in front of me with people coming down with this virus and many becoming severely ill and even dying and I made my decision. It was all just sitting in front of me happening and it didn't make a bit of difference what statistics Dr. Fauci was saying or whatever Donald Trump was saying at the time it was what was actually happening in the world that made me make my decision. Nothing more, nothing less. Simple as that.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> The sad thing is it shouldn't even be a thought to any of that. If the policy to shop within the store states you have to wear a mask you either wear the mask for the time you are in the store or you go shopping somewhere else. Pretty simple. As stated in a previous post by someone else someone said some people neglect to wear a mask knowing full well the policy only to cause some sort of disturbance. That is entirely wrong.


Of course it's wrong.  I wouldn't go to any indoor public place without a mask; doesn't matter whether I think it protects or not.


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## Shero (Jan 25, 2022)

The hospital did the right thing 100%,  why waste a heart when it could be given to a smarter person! He was first on the list, now he is no longer on the list.

Ferguson ( the man)  has two children ( what a loving father! not) and is expecting a third with his partner Heather, according to a GoFundMe page set up for him.

Brigham and Women’s Hospital, which is a Harvard teaching facility, said research had shown transplant recipients were at a much higher risk of dying from Covid compared to non-transplant patients.

“We do everything we can to ensure that a patient who receives a transplanted organ has the greatest chance of survival,” a spokesman told The Post.
.


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## ohioboy (Jan 25, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> Not to go off-topic, but addressing your post- in some instances, individuals who work security in stores are off-duty police officers.


That does not necessarily mean, state specific, that they retain police powers, but are considered as actual private security, but most from what I know, they retain full police authority.


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## chic (Jan 25, 2022)

It's pure discrimination. They say he's going to die because he's unvaxxed? Oh please. The disease has a 99+ survival rate especially in people his age.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 25, 2022)

chic said:


> It's pure discrimination. They say he's going to die because he's unvaxxed? Oh please. The disease has a 99+ survival rate especially in people his age.


You obviously did not fully read what they are saying. They stated clearly that a heart transplant patient regardless of the age if they do not have the vaccine are much more likely to die after the procedure from Covid then from anything related to the transplant itself. So in that case it is much wiser to give the heart to someone who is vaccinated that will more than likely not pass away from Covid. That is what the hospitals decision was based on and not pure discrimination.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 25, 2022)

The real problem is that there is far more demand for transplantable hearts than supply.  Leads to sometimes unfair and irrational decision making.  I would not want to be the decider on this one...


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## dseag2 (Jan 25, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I think that goes too far.  Just because he's stupid, it doesn't mean they should just let him die.


Well I agree with you on the "stupid" part.


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## dseag2 (Jan 25, 2022)

Don M. said:


> It would seem to be a waste of a good heart to try to transplant it into a patient which had minimal chances of survival.  If being unvaccinated makes such a medical procedure unlikely to succeed, the doctors made the right decision.
> 
> Personally, I think that if an unvaccinated person shows up at a hospital, with Covid, they should be given a free bottle of aspirin, and sent on their way.


Well said!


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 25, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> This person has made their medical decision so than it is up to what the hospital and doctors to make a medical decision on the situation and they did just that. There really isn't much else to be said. The two made their decisions and that was the outcome.


I think the hospital was within their rights to refuse the heart transplant.  Perhaps this will be an incentive for him to get vaccinated during a deadly worldwide pandemic.  Every gray cloud has a silver lining.


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## win231 (Jan 25, 2022)

This is the type of incident that can leave someone heartbroken.

Well, someone had to say it.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 25, 2022)

Mandee said:


> Time these people got off their high horses and stopped pointing their self righteous fingers at the unvaccinated, many of who'm have far more genuine reasons for their refusal.
> 
> It is NOT JUST THE UNVACCINATED TO BLAME FOR THE SPREAD OF COVID !!!!!


First of all, the only legitimate reason for someone to refuse a vaccination for the COVID-19 virus would be a medical reason, validated and documented by their physician.  Secondly, no matter how frantically you shout it, it will not make it true.  The majority of people who are hospitalized, taking up beds and ventilators, and further stressing our already drained medical system are those who are unvaccinated.  It is the unvaccinated who are mostly dying from this deadly pandemic and spreading the virus to others.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status  Look at this link to see the chart.


> ​Summary​​
> *                People who were unvaccinated had a greater risk of testing positive for COVID-19 and a greater                risk of dying from COVID-19 than people who were fully vaccinated*              (see below for the most recent rates).
> *                Unvaccinated people in all age groups had higher case and death rates than fully vaccinated                people in the same age groups.*
> *                Case and death rates for people fully vaccinated with any of the three vaccine types (Moderna,                Pfizer-BioNTech, Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen) were much lower than for unvaccinated                people.*
> ...



https://hive.rochesterregional.org/2021/12/can-covid-be-spread-by-someone-who-has-been-vaccinated


> *The numbers don’t lie. The majority of COVID-19 patients who are currently hospitalized are unvaccinated. More than 200 million individuals in the United States alone have received the COVID-19 vaccine, preventing the vast majority from infection and nearly all from severe illness, hospitalization, and death.
> 
> Yet there is still an argument being made that unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals are at equal risk of contracting COVID-19 and spreading it to others.*


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## dseag2 (Jan 25, 2022)

I have intentionally kept quiet on the Covid forums, but I do resent the fact that some hospitals can't admit heart attack patients and those who have other severe issues because of the beds taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients.  Elective surgeries are also being canceled.  That may mean someone with something like skin cancer that may lead to death.  Can't wait for all the negative responses.


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## Furryanimal (Jan 25, 2022)

And what if he is one of the minority for whom the Covid vaccine causes heart problems?
And if you don’t believe they can look it up....
As someone who is reluctantly fully vaccinated against a virus with a greater than 99 % recovery rate i despair at demonisation of those who choose not to be.


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## terry123 (Jan 26, 2022)

Don M. said:


> It would seem to be a waste of a good heart to try to transplant it into a patient which had minimal chances of survival.  If being unvaccinated makes such a medical procedure unlikely to succeed, the doctors made the right decision.
> 
> Personally, I think that if an unvaccinated person shows up at a hospital, with Covid, they should be given a free bottle of aspirin, and sent on their way.


Sounds good to me!


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## chic (Jan 26, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> You obviously did not fully read what they are saying. They stated clearly that a heart transplant patient regardless of the age if they do not have the vaccine are much more likely to die after the procedure from Covid then from anything related to the transplant itself. So in that case it is much wiser to give the heart to someone who is vaccinated that will more than likely not pass away from Covid. That is what the hospitals decision was based on and not pure discrimination.


I read it and I understand what they are saying! But it seems like more of the same propaganda that has propelled us to this. How on earth did the human race survive before vaccines? It seems to me that someone ill in the hospital in need of a heart transplant is not the best candidate for a seamless vaccination from all I've read. Wouldn't help if he got tachycardia from the vaccine would it? or perocharditis.


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## Pepper (Jan 26, 2022)

chic said:


> How on earth did the human race survive before vaccines?


The race survived but individuals did not usually live long past child bearing years.  Is this what you want?  A short life span but the race survives?  I don't think so.  I hope not.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The race survived but individuals did not usually live long past child bearing years.


Yep, our ancestors survived but had to manage things like small pox, polio, rubella and so on.  Sure glad we don't.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 26, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> I have intentionally kept quiet on the Covid forums, but I do resent the fact that some hospitals can't admit heart attack patients and those who have other severe issues because of the beds taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients.  Elective surgeries are also being canceled.  That may mean someone with something like skin cancer that may lead to death.  Can't wait for all the negative responses.


You make a good point, no negativity here.  Have you seen any statistics on this?  Just wondering how prevalent the problem is.


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## old medic (Jan 26, 2022)

I bet they will take an unvaccinated heart..... In a heart beat.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 26, 2022)

old medic said:


> I bet they will take an unvaccinated heart..... In a heart beat.


Exactly! If a donar was unvaccinated they don't turn away those organs.

If an unvaccinated heart is good enough to use, an unvaccinated recipient should be good enough to receive a heart.


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## Pepper (Jan 26, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> Exactly! If a donar was unvaccinated they don't turn away those organs.
> If an unvaccinated heart is good enough to use, an unvaccinated recipient should be good enough to receive a heart.


I recently became acquainted with a man who had a kidney transplant from a dead donor.  He said he now has three kidneys, as the docs put in the new one w/out taking out his own diseased one.  He was able to move to the top of the list because he was willing to accept a damaged kidney.  The one he got had HepC.  He did eventually have HepC, but it is now curable for many people.  He is an older guy.

Your interesting comment on getting diseased organs reminded me of this.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I recently became acquainted with a man who had a kidney transplant from a dead donor.  He said he now has three kidneys, as the docs put in the new one w/out taking out his own diseased one.  He was able to move to the top of the list because he was willing to accept a damaged kidney.  The one he got had HepC.  He did eventually have HepC, but it is now curable for many people.  He is an older guy.
> 
> Your interesting comment on getting diseased organs reminded me of this.


Yes I can see how such could happen, but an unvaccinated donor who tests negative for Covid and has healthy organs, the recipient could still get covid, vaccinated or not. And it's doubtful they would survive considering even a cold could be deadly.

I thought all donor organs or donors were tested for Disease!  Their not??


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## Pepper (Jan 26, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> I thought all donor organs or donors were tested for Disease!  Their not??


They are.  My friend knew in advance he was getting a diseased organ, and that is why he was put to the top of the list for a diseased kidney only.  Docs knew dead donor, who was a heroin addict, had HepC when he died.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> I have intentionally kept quiet on the Covid forums, but I do resent the fact that some hospitals can't admit heart attack patients and those who have other severe issues because of the beds taken up by unvaccinated Covid patients.  Elective surgeries are also being canceled.  That may mean someone with something like skin cancer that may lead to death.  Can't wait for all the negative responses.


I completely agree, and in fact I started another thread saying exactly the same thing. (Thread has apparently been removed.)  When all the hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated people with Covid, that starts to impact everybody else.  It even impacts other unvaccinated people! Yesterday's paper quoted a doctor in one of those overwhelmed hospitals, asking people not to plan to schedule surgery for themselves, unless they are in a life-threatening situation.

Getting back to the original question, of course the hospital was within their rights. Hospitals make decisions to do transplants (or not) as a routine matter, every day.

But I think there are situations where patients can refuse a certain medication or procedure, based on religious principles. Isn't there a branch of Christianity that refuses blood transfusions?

Of course, most of the anti-vaxxers do not say their refusal is based on religion.


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## JaniceM (Jan 26, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Well I agree with you on the "stupid" part.


Oooh, be careful, somebody might accuse you of "name-calling"..


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## JaniceM (Jan 26, 2022)

Sunny said:


> I completely agree, and in fact I started another thread saying exactly the same thing. (Thread has apparently been removed.)  When all the hospital beds are being taken up by unvaccinated people with Covid, that starts to impact everybody else.  It even impacts other unvaccinated people! Yesterday's paper quoted a doctor in one of those overwhelmed hospitals, asking people not to plan to schedule surgery for themselves, unless they are in a life-threatening situation.
> 
> Getting back to the original question, of course the hospital was within their rights. Hospitals make decisions to do transplants (or not) as a routine matter, every day.
> 
> ...


Well, I still believe doctors are under moral obligation to save lives, and should not be able to "pick and choose" whose life they consider worthy of saving.


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## Sunny (Jan 26, 2022)

How about triage, Janice?  Isn't that "picking and choosing?"


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 26, 2022)

chic said:


> I read it and I understand what they are saying! But it seems like more of the same propaganda that has propelled us to this. How on earth did the human race survive before vaccines? It seems to me that someone ill in the hospital in need of a heart transplant is not the best candidate for a seamless vaccination from all I've read. Wouldn't help if he got tachycardia from the vaccine would it? or perocharditis.


Let me put it to you this way. If you had a relative on this heart transplant list and they have been waiting quite some time as many of these patients do and there is this patient that is ahead of your loved one that they tell you he is going to get a heart , but chances are he is going to die because he refuses to get the Covid vaccine and out the window goes that heart. How would you feel if you were that person waiting all that time for the heart or that close family member knowing the chances are much higher for that heart to save your life and give you or your love one a chance at living a much longer life?


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## Lara (Jan 26, 2022)

I find it shocking that any SF members would call an anti-vaxer..."Stupid" (posts #2 and #5).
I'm vaccinated but would never judge others nor label anyone "stupid" who has their own reasons.
And there ARE other reasons...

According to Experts, there are a Variety of Reasons Why People Refuse Vaccines:

...Lack of access to vaccines

...Concern about the vaccines’ side effects

...Little trust in the vaccines or the institutions behind them

...Don't trust the Media, the Polls, the numbers

...A refusal to see Covid-19 as a threat

...Belief in at least one of several different conspiracy theories

...And of course Medical reasons

Just like the F-Word, please just take "Stupid" out of your vocabulary because it makes You sound stupid.
(notice I said "sound stupid"...I didn't call you stupid...rather, lacking vocabulary and tact perhaps)
`


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## win231 (Jan 26, 2022)

Lara said:


> I find it shocking that any SF members would call an anti-vaxer..."Stupid". I'm vaccinated but would never judge others nor label anyone who has their own reasons. And there ARE other reasons.
> 
> According to Experts, there are a Variety of Reasons Why People Refuse Vaccines:
> 
> ...


Most people don't have your integrity.  And some have no other way to feel good about themselves.
Some people who chose to be vaccinated lack confidence in the vaccine themselves & take out their frustrations on those who made a different choice.


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## ohioboy (Jan 26, 2022)

Well, I'm Stupid and I have worked very hard to get where I am for over 50 years. No person who ever lived can out - stupid me, case closed!


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 26, 2022)

I feel anyone can make their point without using any of these types of remarks. These sorts of statements are basically used in a forum context for one reason only and that is to ruffle feathers. That is basically the reason. They really don't add much to the debate at all  and the point could definitely get made in a much more productive way in my opinion.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 26, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> I feel anyone can make their point without using any of these types of remarks. These sorts of statements are basically used in a forum context for one reason only and that is to ruffle feathers. That is basically the reason. They really don't add much to the debate at all  and the point could definitely get made in a much more productive way in my opinion.


True. Also for some it's a type of bullying and they feel they are superior by trying to make their victims seem uneducated.  

Education has very little to do with intelligence.


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## Irwin (Jan 26, 2022)

According to this model, it _is _stupid to refuse to get vaccinated based on your political beliefs:

The anti-vaxxers are incurring losses to themselves and to others.

The losses to themselves occur when they lose their jobs, are ostracized or condemned for their actions, or when they get sicker than they would have if they had been vaccinated.
The losses to others occurs when they do get infected and can spread the virus more precipitously than the fully vaccinated, when they're hospitalized and overloading medical resources, because of the harm they're doing to the economy in preventing effective management of the pandemic, and because of the costs of treatment that will need to be paid some day.
Nobody is gaining from anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated other than politicians who are using the pandemic for political gain by telling people that it's all just a conspiracy created so government can control us.


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## ohioboy (Jan 26, 2022)

Was watching some YouTube "Karen" videos. A pet shop employee would not let a woman in without a mask on, she claimed a medical exemption! First how is it a medical risk for wearing a mask for 5 or 10 minutes? In and out?

She calls the police and among her other brilliant legal ramblings, she said they were violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964, duh! She demanded the dispatcher order the employee to let her in! Of course the dispatcher had no such authority and she told the woman so. People, some that is, are so stupid.


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## Shero (Jan 26, 2022)

It takes surgeons and their teams around 6 hours to do a heart transplant. Not to mention the door to door dash to get the heart before it dies.

A heart transplant patient's  immune system is so weak, a cold could kill, never mind covid. Why should surgeons waste time, money and energy saving a life which is doomed from the start. The only real losers are his children, who had a stupid father. Maybe his family could ask Miss Piggy to recommend a cardiologist.


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## win231 (Jan 26, 2022)

Shero said:


> The hospital did the right thing 100%,  why waste a heart when it could be given to a smarter person! He was first on the list, now he is no longer on the list.
> 
> Ferguson ( the man)  has two children ( what a loving father! not) and is expecting a third with his partner Heather, according to a GoFundMe page set up for him.
> 
> ...


^^^^ A heartfelt post.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jan 26, 2022)

I was "feeling some type of way" about it until I saw the reasoning behind it. When stated, I understood the why better.


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## dseag2 (Jan 26, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> You make a good point, no negativity here.  Have you seen any statistics on this?  Just wondering how prevalent the problem is.


I don't have any hard statistics.  Most of them are from the early days of Covid.  But here are some thoughts from a healthcare worker.  This is a video posted 3 weeks ago.  This is clearly endemic to certain parts of the country.


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## WheatenLover (Jan 27, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> _“The organs are scarce: we are not going to distribute them to someone who has a poor chance of living when others who are vaccinated have a better chance post-surgery of surviving.”_
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/25/heart-transplant-patient-refusing-covid-19-vaccine


I agree with this statement. There are so many more people on the transplant list than organs that become available. I think organs should go not go to people who have a poor chance of living. This person is not vaccinated for Covid, but if he caught it while his immune system was extremely weak, he would die. 

https://www.organdonor.gov/learn/organ-donation-statistics


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 27, 2022)




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## StarSong (Jan 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> You have fallen into the _"All or Nothing" _mindset.  We are free to choose which vaccines, drugs, or procedures we want.  It's "A la Carte."
> The fact that someone doesn't trust _one _drug or procedure or vaccine doesn't mean they don't trust _any_ drug or procedure or vaccine.


When qualifying for a transplant a patient is _NOT_ free to choose the vaccines, drugs or procedures they want.  The doctors are in the drivers' seats, which is made clear from the get-go.  A very close friend had a double lung transplant 20 months ago.  He takes myriad pills everyday including anti- rejection meds and follows detailed recommended protocols.  He's had at least three Covid vaccines, gets an anesthetized (but painful after the fact) bronchoscopy every few months, and follows his doctors' orders TO THE LETTER.

While being assessed for the transplant list he and his family had to answer numerous questions and were interviewed by medical and psychological teams to be sure they would all follow the rules so the team was assured the transplant had maximum chance of success.

In accordance with his doctors' guidelines, other than his wife he sees nobody (including his children and grandchildren) without both being masked. Groceries are delivered. Meal outings are outdoors only, well distanced and he masks back up between bites. He knows what it feels like to be unable to breathe so he doesn't squawk about the restrictions.  He's back to playing tennis (unmasked), hiking, and being fully alive.  He knows Covid likely won't pose a threat to him forever... 

If a potential transplant recipient refuses recommended medical treatment_ before qualifying_, it certainly doesn't bode well for maximum long-term success - undoubtedly why the hospital declined him for the transplant list.  Transplants are very expensive procedures and far more people are in need of transplants than ever receive them.

Re Mickey Mantle:  His transplant was in 1995, so 27 years ago.  Eons ago in transplant history.  Agree he shouldn't have qualified, but it's impossible to know how many people signed up as organ donors because of the publicity around "The Mick" getting one when he had (undiagnosed) lung cancer. 

His liver transplant might have ultimately been a net gain, saving more lives than the one it may have cost.


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## win231 (Jan 27, 2022)

StarSong said:


> When qualifying for a transplant a patient is _NOT_ free to choose the vaccines, drugs or procedures they want.  The doctors are in the drivers' seats, which is made clear from the get-go.  A very close friend had a double lung transplant 20 months ago.  He takes myriad pills everyday including anti- rejection meds and follows detailed recommended protocols.  He's had at least three Covid vaccines, gets an anesthetized (but painful after the fact) bronchoscopy every few months, and follows his doctors' orders TO THE LETTER.
> 
> While being assessed for the transplant list he and his family had to answer numerous questions and were interviewed by medical and psychological teams to be sure they would all follow the rules so the team was assured the transplant had maximum chance of success.
> 
> ...


Mickey Mantle's transplant did not cost "The one life."  It cost the lives of several children.
An alcoholic with money was put at the front of the line.
But hey, nice (but desperate) try at turning greed & corruption into something positive.


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## StarSong (Jan 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> Mickey Mantle's transplant did not cost "The one life."  It cost the lives of several children.
> An alcoholic with money was put at the front of the line.
> But hey, nice (but desperate) try at turning greed & corruption into something positive.


I have no idea who was behind him on the transplant list, and doubt you do either.  At any rate, it was 27 years ago and qualifications have changed dramatically during the intervening years.     

Bottom line - this heart patient made his choice and now has to live - or not - with the consequences. Maybe he'll be lucky and survive long enough to get vaccinated and move onto the list.


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## Jeni (Jan 27, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I have no idea who was behind him on the transplant list, and doubt you do either.  At any rate, it was 27 years ago and qualifications have changed dramatically during the intervening years.
> 
> Bottom line - this heart patient made his choice and now has to live - or not - with the consequences. Maybe he'll be lucky and survive long enough to get vaccinated and move onto the list.


If you read the article he WAS on list:
Patient removed from heart transplant list for refusing Covid-19 vaccine​DJ Ferguson, 31, had previously been prioritized for a transplant by Brigham and Women’s hospital in Boston.

This was a *reversal *not a sorry you do not qualify for list .......  if this was their policy from start he would not have been Prioritized for it.
In his current condition it would not even be safe to get the vaccine.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 27, 2022)

Yes @Jeni  you are correct he was on the list. A very long list that many have to wait a very long time and even time that runs out before even getting a heart. The thing is as he moved up the list to the top just like with any other pending surgery you have to go through pre tests and have every i's dotted and t's crossed. The same has to be for this surgery if not more due to the extent of the surgery. I will have to ask my husband on that as he is an Anesthesiologist and although he has never been on a heart transplant surgery he has been in many surgeries. Regardless as it is stated in the article it was determined that the unvaccinated person getting a heart transplant would have a much better chance of dying from Covid than dying from the actual procedure. So that is why the hospital determined to take this recipient off the list.


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## Jeni (Jan 27, 2022)

Looking deeper: 
This man Has been hospitalized since NOVEMBER .... ON the list even though hospital says NO one is on list without... ? 
    THIS hospital Prioritized him  according to this article ( assume the writers verified) ......although this hospital denies that now.
Hospital says look to our website.... it says must be  vaccinated to be on list you must ...... 
a website change can be made in minutes and no one needs to know.  I did website updates for a medical facility
 so looking now does not say when the policy was in place and  WHEN website that was updated.

If he was told in November you do not meet requirement you are now off list , sorry.... it would be a *NON -story* ..... 

Lots of information is missing ....... of course the family will frame it one way and hospital the other.... truth is in middle somewhere. 

I doubt the family waited this long with his condition worsening if IT WAS clear the hospital position and most likely change was more recent... 
but some made up their mind regardless.     
A question this makes me think of is a person in end stage heart failure .....the doctors still think he can have a vaccine.

Why do they ask at pharmacy ... have you felt ill of any symptoms before shot?   if an end stage heart patient it would be OK to give shot....

Or a better question If we are to believe those hospitalized with covid could not take shot as a treatment..since it was designed to make possible illness mild?


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 27, 2022)

The questions they ask at the pharmacy are those that pertain to symptoms that are related to Covid that could possibly mean the person has the virus. Giving the vaccine at that time would not be beneficial so they have to ask those questions. People with other illness or diseases such as end stage heart failure the Covid vaccine would not effect that I suppose. I am not a doctor or pharmacist, but I feel that if the chances are you have a Covid strain and you are getting the vaccine that is putting related to that into your system it could make things worse. If you have something that is unrelated to Covid it may not matter as much. This is just my opinion and I am far from a medical expert on this. 

Regardless somewhere during this long process this patient was made aware of the decision he had to make and he made it and that was not to get vaccinated. He knew the consequences of that as well and now he is unfortunately dealing with that and off the list.


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## win231 (Jan 27, 2022)

If it's OK to refuse a life-saving procedure for someone who's not vaccinated, what's wrong with refusing treatment for a smoker with lung disease or an alcoholic with liver disease?  Why waste a good liver on an alcoholic?  Why waste chemotherapy on a smoker?
What's wrong with a doctor deciding that patients with _any _disease brought it on themselves, so they don't deserve treatment?
What's wrong with a doctor deciding that patients with diabetes are to blame for having diabetes?  _"If you didn't eat sugar, you wouldn't be diabetic.  Why should we waste insulin on you?"_
What's wrong with a doctor refusing knee replacement surgery for a patient who's overweight?  _"You wore out your knees by being too fat."_
After all, there is _NO_ question or debate that smoking & heavy drinking are detrimental to health, but there _ARE_ questions about the safety of Covid vaccines.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 27, 2022)

Do you not understand that they are saying it has to do with the likelihood of the heart transplant procedure that the recipient would die from Covid more than from the actual procedure and that is why they would rather give a healthy heart to someone that wouldn't happen to? The other procedures you mention like a smoker receiving chemotherapy the treatment is still effective for people who have been smokers or who are smokers. The same for those with liver disease who are alcoholics. A new liver is not going to increase the risk of killing that person. The difference and it is as plain as day written in the article is that they are saying an unvaccinated person chances of dying from Covid is much higher than actually dying from the actual heart transplant surgery so they would much more recommend giving a healthy heart to a vaccinated person.


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## win231 (Jan 27, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> Do you not understand that they are saying it has to do with the likelihood of the heart transplant procedure that the recipient would die from Covid more than from the actual procedure and that is why they would rather give a healthy heart to someone that wouldn't happen to. The other procedures you mention like a smoker receiving chemotherapy the treatment is still effective for people who have been smokers or who are smokers. The same for those with liver disease who are alcoholics. A new liver is not going to increase the risk of killing that person. The difference and it is as plain as day writing in the article is that they are saying an unvaccinated person chances of dying from Covid is much higher than actually dying from the actual heart transplant surgery so they would much more recommend giving a healthy heart to a vaccinated person.


That's your take on it & (of course) you are entitled to it.
Just as I am entitled to mine.
The similarity has more to do with withholding treatment that might save a patient's life unless the patient agrees with _everything _the doctor is saying.  A patient has the right to refuse or accept any treatment; a doctor can _suggest _a drug or vaccine but he has no right to make it a condition of treatment.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 27, 2022)

win231 said:


> That's your take on it & (of course) you are entitled to it.
> Just as I am entitled to mine.
> The similarity has more to do with withholding treatment that might save a patient's life unless the patient agrees with _everything _the doctor is saying.  A patient has the right to refuse or accept any treatment; a doctor can _suggest _a drug or vaccine but he has no right to make it a condition of treatment.


You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.


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## Irwin (Jan 27, 2022)

It's a private hospital, as are all hospitals except for maybe the VA. Private companies have the right to serve whomever they choose and deny service to whomever they choose not to serve. It's capitalism. No shirt, no shoes, no service. Only a socialist would force them to serve someone they don't want to serve. Move to Venezuela if that's what you want.


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## win231 (Jan 27, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.


A TV show is for ratings & they don't get high ratings without drama; that's the purpose of "Reality Shows."  Yes, I've seen those disgusting shows a couple of times, exploiting the obese.  They don't represent real life; they're there to entertain & shock is part of that entertainment & ratings.
I'm surprised you (or anyone) would get your information from such a source.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 27, 2022)

Rah-Rah said:


> You are 100% wrong. Have you ever watch the show where the Doctor deals with the patients that weigh quite a bit of weight. That doctor gives those patients all the recommendations they must follow and if they do not follow them to a tee he will not go forward with treating them. So yes a doctor can refuse treatment to a patient if they refuse the to follow the course of treatment including any medication involved that will help. Patients have also been discharged for hospitals because they have refused treatment or refused to follow the treatment of doctors while under their care in the hospital. Definitely not the smartest thing in the world, but it has happened.


Of course you are correct.  This wasn't related to a transplant, but last year I met this man at a park I frequent and he couldn't walk very well, went straight from his car to the picnic table.  He said he had been in terrible pain from his knee and needed a knee replacement, but it would be a while before his doctor approved the surgery because he was obese and needed to lose the weight first before he could be helped.  He said he was working on it, and I wished him the best.  Didn't see him again after that day.


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## win231 (Jan 27, 2022)

SeaBreeze said:


> Of course you are correct.  This wasn't related to a transplant, but last year I met this man at a park I frequent and he couldn't walk very well, went straight from his car to the picnic table.  He said he had been in terrible pain from his knee and needed a knee replacement, but it would be a while before his doctor approved the surgery because he was obese and needed to lose the weight first before he could be helped.  He said he was working on it, and I wished him the best.  Didn't see him again after that day.


Big difference.  His knee replacement was not a life-saving procedure.


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## Becky1951 (Jan 28, 2022)

I don't know anything about heart transplants but I assumed that after having one the person then has a healthy heart and can go about life as usual. Hike, water ski, dance, whatever they did before.

Apparently not? They are so fragile that even a cold will kill them?


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 28, 2022)

win231 said:


> Big difference.  His knee replacement was not a life-saving procedure.


The point being made, which always seems to go over your head, was that both men were informed of the requirements in order to qualify for their particular surgeries.  The man I spoke of was a reasonable adult and was following his doctor's orders to prepare for his surgery.  The covidiot in this thread refused to abide by the instruction of the medical doctors and refused to get the Covid vaccine, therefore forfeiting his place in line for the surgery.  Very simple.



> *David Ferguson told CBS 4 his son D.J. was removed from his place on the transplant line at Brigham and Women's Hospital because his 31-year-old son will not get vaccinated against COVID-19.
> 
> “It’s kind of against his basic principles; he doesn’t believe in it. It’s a policy they are enforcing and so because he won’t get the shot, they took him off the list of a heart transplant,” Ferguson told the outlet.
> 
> ...



https://thehill.com/changing-americ...an-reportedly-denied-heart-transplant-because


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## win231 (Jan 28, 2022)

Becky1951 said:


> I don't know anything about heart transplants but I assumed that after having one the person then has a healthy heart and can go about life as usual. Hike, water ski, dance, whatever they did before.
> 
> Apparently not? They are so fragile that even a cold will kill them?


The problem is the same as with any organ transplant.  The recipient must take _many _immune-suppressing drugs daily to prevent the body from attacking the organ.  Such drugs greatly weaken the defense to other illnesses & diseases, leaving the recipient vulnerable.


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## Rah-Rah (Jan 28, 2022)

You apparently do not know the background of doctor Younan Nowzandan who has decades of working and helping and saving obese patients throughout his career. It is not for shock value. That is the proper method of treating these patients that need help. The same goes for Sandra Lee who is known as Doctor Pimple Popper. Although I have never seen her to turn down anyone for treatment, I imagine there have been some cases she could not treat because it was beyond what she could do. I have seen her explain that to patients upfront as well. Also a very well know and respected Veterinarian Jan Pol who has or had a show where he treats animals of all kinds definitely does not do his job for shock value. Now you are correct Reality shows like The Kardashians and stuff like that are for shock value, but these shows with the doctors have a purpose.


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