# "My best is not good enough", (a parents lament)



## grahamg (Nov 7, 2021)

My best is not "good enough",

My best is not enough,
what should I do?
I've strived, I think,
and tried to learn,
and all of that,
and loved my child,
as much as I could,
but still its not enough!

Who says so,
I hear you ask?
Well those who know,
what is required of you,
by all or anyone's child,
and they can't be questioned,
with "How do you know",
or "Why did you say those things"?

"Could have done better",
will be their report,
and from your life is taken,
that what you had treasured most,
who could not have been here,
had you not trodden this earth,
and whether it's true or not, whats been said,
no parent at all you shall become!

grahamg (2021).


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## Bellbird (Nov 8, 2021)

If your best is not good enough, who is making the call. ?


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## Paco Dennis (Nov 8, 2021)

It seems like having a child/children is like a crap shoot ( gambling ). You can lose, or win, or keep trying over and over 'till one or the other happens anyway.


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## grahamg (Nov 8, 2021)

Bellbird said:


> If your best is not good enough, who is making the call. ?


Family courts, (or their officials at least, who, when spokespeople at their head office in London are questioned, say: "they understand more or less everything to do with children, when the parents cant agree about them").

Having said that, "show any weakness", and you'll have plenty of others jumping on the bandwagon!


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## grahamg (Nov 8, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> It seems like having a child/children is like a crap shoot ( gambling ). You can lose, or win, or keep trying over and over 'till one or the other happens anyway.


Life's a gamble isn't it, (or so my dad used to say), and you don't have to be religious to feel sometimes we get the family/children we deserve, or can cope with perhaps(?).


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## grahamg (Nov 9, 2021)

Another lament:


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## StarSong (Nov 9, 2021)

Children devise ways to cope with unpleasant life circumstances.  Not all come up with healthy coping mechanisms.  One never knows how they might respond and what they're thinking deep down.  Every child is different.    

You and your ex apparently couldn't manage your problems with each other to the point where your daughter (I think you have just the one child) felt loved, valued, nurtured and secure with the two of you independently and as a parenting team.   

Family courts have the unenviable job of managing what the family itself couldn't figure out - and are tasked to do so while hamstrung by laws, too  little time or insight, insufficient funding and conflicting, self-serving stories describing a family's dynamics.      

Since you've posted about this quite often, it is obviously - and understandably - very painful for you.  You have my sympathies.


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## grahamg (Nov 9, 2021)

Bellbird said:


> If your best is not good enough, who is making the call. ?


I forgot to mention two local librarians, (a husband and wife team), basing their opinions on my lack of parenting skills, or the quality of my relationship with my child on the basis of watching her arrive back from a contact visit "ON ONE OCCASION", and this was enough for them to condemn me in statements provided to the courts!

Then my child's school chose to intervene and write to the courts condemning me, something quite unusual I believe, as the governments rules, and advice to schools, is to avoid becoming embroiled in disputes over children's contact with their parents, (so the rule book got trashed too!).  

All in all, seven people, besides my ex., provided evidence used against me, so a veritable throng just ready and eager to jump in, (none of whom ever witnessed a single contact visit of course!).


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## grahamg (Nov 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Children devise ways to cope with unpleasant life circumstances.  Not all come up with healthy coping mechanisms.  One never knows how they might respond and what they're thinking deep down.  Every child is different.
> 
> You and your ex apparently couldn't manage your problems with each other to the point where your daughter (I think you have just the one child) felt loved, valued, nurtured and secure with the two of you independently and as a parenting team.
> 
> ...


The reason I post about these things now has nothing to do with any pain it might have caused me, (though you're right to assume it took years to adjust and "get my head around" what happened, to use a very clumsy phrase!).


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## grahamg (May 4, 2022)

I just thought it might be worth trying t resurrect this thread following the arrival of my latest grandson I learned about a week ago, (by my former brother in law and his wife telling me they'd received an email about this event a couple of weeks earlier, and I didn't even know my daughter was pregnant, though this is no surprise nor reason to upset oneself about now, after such a long estrangement).

Our little joke about the arrival of this new baby, (my former brother in law and I), is that my daughter "Is going for a football team", as its the third boy, but no doubt they've been tempted to try for a girl.

Here is a poignant, though slightly corny, comment upon grandparents etc., (hope you can read it):


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## Murrmurr (May 4, 2022)

grahamg said:


> The reason I post about these things now has nothing to do with any pain it might have caused me, (though you're right to assume it took years to adjust and "get my head around" what happened, to use a very clumsy phrase!).


Wow. A bit lacking in gratitude for @StarSong 's very insightful, heart-felt post.


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## grahamg (May 4, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Wow. A bit lacking in gratitude for @StarSong 's very insightful, heart-felt post.


I dont disagree, though if you dont mind my saying, there are a good many things you are ignoring about the family law situation in the UK, (should you have read the comments I've made before as it appears our other forum friend has), that should make you exclaim "Wow" before my not thanking anyone for a post on this forum, particularly when I believe shifting the attention to this aspect, quote: *"Since you've posted about this quite often, it is obviously - and understandably - very painful for you. You have my sympathies"* is unhelpful in my view.

If you read my "gatekeeper" thread you will see there I'm trying my best to put forward the idea opposing those parents acting as though they have the devine right to decide who else should have anything to do with the child under any circumstances is what our courts should be about, and yet under "the best interests paramount principle",  (and assuming it should apply, again in all circumstances), this is not what our courts focus upon as at least an equally important matter than the interests of the child as the courts see such a thing.

Dont forget too that "deciding what may be in a child's best interests is no lesser a consideration than the meaning of life itself", (according to Mnookin).

And the United Nations declaration on the rights of the child has the best interests of the child as "*A*" main/paramount criteria, not "*THE*" main/paramount criteria, and that seemingly small difference makes all the difference in the world, especially in some extreme cases.

For example it would be unlawful for our family courts to decide in favour of a father or mother getting to see their own children before they die of cancer, (or some other often uncurable and usually non transmissable disease), on the basis this is the right thing to do in a humane society for that parent, putting aside some notion of whether some official, or "court appointed busy body declares this it is n this child's interests to see their dying parent, but not in the next child's best interests".

Remember it is simply a "rebuttable" presumption in favour of contact for decent parents I seek, so even if I'm dying and being denied contact with my child, the ex can still oppose it but this time the courts are allowed to take my interests into consideration above that of my child's where there is no threat of harm being done, (and if you dont mind my being facetious for a moment I'd guess most dying parents arent so much in to abusing their children I'd suspect, as being overwhelmed by the pleasure of seeing them).          

Anything there to make you say "*WOW*"?!


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## WheatenLover (May 4, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I forgot to mention two local librarians, (a husband and wife team), basing their opinions on my lack of parenting skills, or the quality of my relationship with my child on the basis of watching her arrive back from a contact visit "ON ONE OCCASION", and this was enough for them to condemn me in statements provided to the courts!


You know what, I believe you.

I well remember the time our pastor told my husband that I was _severely abusing_ our three year old triplets.

What had I done? Nothing.

What had my boys done (the size of 2 year olds; they were 3 months premature)? They stood in front of the standing pastor (I was there too) and did not make eye contact with him when he talked to them. The boys were not used to putting their necks back to see someone that high up. They would not have been able to look the pastor in the eye anyway. Most adult went to their level. Pastor did not know this because he did not have kids. Besides, he was an a**hole.

My husband stood up for me. But then when we went for marriage counseling with the (turned out to be faked credentials) licensed counselor/pastor, on the second session the pastor opened with telling my husband he must divorce me and take full custody of the kids, who were ages 11 and 12, to protect them from me.

My husband was horrified -- he didn't want to be a single father to 4 kids. Kids were 10 and 11. I was horrified because I didn't abuse the kids and no one else had alleged that to anyone, and my husband was rarely home when the kids were awake. Shortly before that, I went to my father's funeral in another state, and the first thing my husband did was tell the kids to ignore the instructions I'd given them, and do what they wanted.

Another time, the lovely and gossipy neighbor lady called the police on me. She told them I was allowing the kids to play baseball, unsupervised, and they were "mentally retarded special needs kids" and she was "afraid a fox would attack them". She called several times, and a police officer went to the cul-de-sac to check on the kids, and then came over to my house.

He told me what happened (which is where I got the quotes) and said not to worry about it. The boys were 11 years old, and our 100 lb. guardian Rough Collie was with them. They were with all the neighbor kids, playing baseball. An adult (the mother of one of the kids) was sitting there supervising the kids and my dog, who was in charge of retrieving fly balls.

The cop said the lady was a nut.


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## Lavinia (May 4, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Wow. A bit lacking in gratitude for @StarSong 's very insightful, heart-felt post.


I wonder what he was expecting us to say. I know what I would like to say but it would fall on deaf ears.


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## Murrmurr (May 4, 2022)

grahamg said:


> there are a good many things you are ignoring about the family law situation in the UK,


The family law situation in the UK has nothing to do with @StarSong 's empathetic post.


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## Tish (May 5, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> It seems like having a child/children is like a crap shoot ( gambling ). You can lose, or win, or keep trying over and over 'till one or the other happens anyway.


Well, they certainly don't come with a book of instruction, that's for sure.


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## StarSong (May 5, 2022)

I am truly sorry for your pain, @grahamg.  You're correct that I'm not well versed in UK custody laws, nor am I more than passingly familiar with the custody laws in my own city and state, having never needed to personally navigate them.

_What I DO know_ is what it's like to grow up in a dysfunctional family anchored by a marriage that devolved into a hot mess by the time I was a small child.

There were five children, each of whom integrated the pain, disappointments and betrayals with whatever coping skills we could personally muster, and each responded accordingly. To this day we carry the shields we developed back then: One remains angry, another is peace-at-any-price, another is a right-fighter, another withdraws and distances, and the last repeated the cycle with her own children.

Adult relationships with our parents (and each other) have been equally diverse, including some close ties, some barely-there ties and some estrangements.

Please don't underestimate the terrible suffering of disastrous marriages on their offspring. All involved see events through their own lenses and respond accordingly.  Your daughter undoubtedly has a very different spin on the whys and wherefores of her distancing from you.  Not suggesting she's "right" or that it's "fair," merely that she had to carve her own path through the pain.


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> The family law situation in the UK has nothing to do with @StarSong 's empathetic post.


Just because you say so, "WOW"!


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## Murrmurr (May 5, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Just because you say so, "WOW"!


I'll say "Bloody 'ell" next time instead.


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I am truly sorry for your pain, @grahamg.  You're correct that I'm not well versed in UK custody laws, nor am I more than passingly familiar with the custody laws in my own city and state, having never needed to personally navigate them.
> _What I DO know_ is what it's like to grow up in a dysfunctional family anchored by a marriage that devolved into a hot mess by the time I was a small child.
> There were five children, each of whom integrated the pain, disappointments and betrayals with whatever coping skills we could personally muster, and each responded accordingly. To this day we carry the shields we developed back then: One remains angry, another is peace-at-any-price, another is a right-fighter, another withdraws and distances, and the last repeated the cycle with her own children.
> Adult relationships with our parents (and each other) have been equally diverse, including some close ties, some barely-there ties and some estrangements.
> Please don't underestimate the terrible suffering of disastrous marriages on their offspring. All involved see events through their own lenses and respond accordingly.  Your daughter undoubtedly has a very different spin on the whys and wherefores of her distancing from you.  Not suggesting she's "right" or that it's "fair," merely that she had to carve her own path through the pain.


My daughter was no in pain, (yes divided loyalties, yes a very controlling, though loving mother who as I keep saying was the better parent, and yes things were not always easy for her, but mostly things were pretty good, and she progressed like nobody's business, so no victim in the sense some might wish to portray!).

A guy here feels I'm an awful brute not thanking you, whilst ignoring all my comments about what should shock him in my view, "such is life though"!

I'm not thanking you now by my own choice, as I dont have to thank anyone for their empathy on any forum, where "my pain" you could say, is long gone. When I did struggle to understand all the ramifications I believe stem from those in authority believing they know what is good for children of decent parents, (whilst probably making a complete hash of bringing up their own kids), I believe I got there not through any sympathy anyone might have offered me, but by refusing to believe all the nonsense so many do gooders choose to spout continuously I'm sorry to say, (not that I dislike our "forum friend" you understand, that isn't a factor here!).


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## Pepper (May 5, 2022)

You're not in pain.  You're obsessed.  Your daughter is your obsession.  You are obviously not hers.


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## Knight (May 5, 2022)

grahamg said:


> My best is not "good enough",
> 
> My best is not enough,
> what should I do?
> ...


What do you mean you loved your child as much as you could?


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## Pepper (May 5, 2022)

grahamg said:


> I believe I got their not through any sympathy anyone might have offered me, but by refusing to believe all the nonsense so many do gooders choose to spout continuously I'm sorry to say, (not that I dislike our "forum friend" you understand, that isn't a factor here!).


Outrageous.  You're right, you deserve no empathy, sympathy or anything else.


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## Murrmurr (May 5, 2022)

"A guy here feels I'm an awful brute not thanking you"

I didn't say you're an awful brute, I said you're ungrateful...ungrateful for kind, supportive words. And that's the best anyone here can give you.


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## Pepper (May 5, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> "A guy here feels I'm an awful brute not thanking you"
> 
> I didn't say you're an awful brute, I said you're ungrateful...ungrateful for kind, supportive words. And that's the best anyone here can give you.


Maybe he wants nothing from us.  Maybe he just wants to kvetch.  Fine with me, but be upfront about it.


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## Murrmurr (May 5, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Maybe he wants nothing from us.  Maybe he just wants to kvetch.  Fine with me, but be upfront about it.


Good place to end it before I bite a hole through my tongue.


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## Bellbird (May 5, 2022)

The courts don't always get it right when it comes to the welfare of a child/children. They listen to and take note of a Counsellors, psychologists, report which can be misconstrude . Like everything else there is good, and far from good, depends on which barrow they are pushing.


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## StarSong (May 5, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Good place to end it before I bite a hole through my tongue.


I'm out, too.


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

Pepper said:


> You're not in pain.  You're obsessed.  Your daughter is your obsession.  You are obviously not hers.


How do you live with yourself making such foolish comments about folks you dont really know, about my daughter you'll never know etc., etc.?

What makes you such a judge of other folks lives?


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Good place to end it before I bite a hole through my tongue.


You still here, (bite your tongue all you like, cos maybe, just maybe you should have done so earlier on this thread given your sensibilities an all on others behalf!!!!!!!!!!!!!  )?


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I'm out, too.


Stick together, that's the way hey!


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

Bellbird said:


> The courts don't always get it right when it comes to the welfare of a child/children. They listen to and take note of a Counsellors, psychologists, report which can be misconstrue . Like everything else there is good, and far from good, depends on which barrow they are pushing.


Thank you for your kind comments, (/supportive comments to my arguments here and if you've ever read any of them, elsewhere on this forum).

My feeling, when I try to think about the work or reports produced by trained people examining my relationship with my daughter and making their decrees upon it, was that they started from the conclusion they wished to reach, (if you see what I mean), and then put together the rest of it as a way of supporting the outcome they'd decided upon already.


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## grahamg (May 5, 2022)

Knight said:


> What do you mean you loved your child as much as you could?


Simply that, I do not believe I could ever have loved any child as much as I loved her, (and still feel I have that love in me!).

Why is that hard for anyone to understand?


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## Pepper (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> How do you live with yourself making such foolish comments about folks you dont really know, about my daughter you'll never know etc., etc.?
> 
> *What makes you such a judge of other folks lives?*


I'm only going by what you share; you're stating your own case, giving your own evidence; that is the conclusion I have come to based on your own words.


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I'm only going by what you share; you're stating your own case, giving your own evidence; that is the conclusion I have come to based on your own words.


Well its not enough then, because when "using my own words", and two court welfare officers managed to decree there was "no positive relationship between my daughter", (and alI within five minutes), went onto say to my lawyer when questioned by him as t the contents of their reports, that there were positives to say about me and my relationship with my child, so chew on that for a bit, and dont jump to conclusions so quickly in future, if you feel tempted to wade in on something you can only know vey very little about, and as one prominet fathers rights said to a judge in court, "Dont try to play God in my children's lives"!


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## Pepper (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Well its not enough then, because when "using my own words", and *two court welfare officers managed to decree there was "no positive relationship between my daughter"*, (and alI within five minutes), went onto say to my lawyer when questioned by him as t the contents of their reports, that there were positives to say about me and my relationship with my child, so chew on that for a bit, and dont jump to conclusions so quickly in future, if you feel tempted to wade in on something you can only know vey very little about, and as one prominet fathers rights said to a judge in court, "Dont try to play God in my children's lives"!


Obviously your daughter agrees.  Tell me, when was the last time you tried to reconcile?  If it were me I'd go begging to her door.  But that's just me.  However, do you even try?


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Obviously your daughter agrees.  Tell me, when was the last time you tried to reconcile?  If it were me I'd go begging to her door.  But that's just me.  However, do you even try?


Haven't you asked enough questions to satisfy your extraordinary curiosity about my affairs?

Why not pick on another excluded parent or grandparent and try telling them what they did wrong, (after grilling them for every details of course!  )?


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## Knight (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Simply that, I do not believe I could ever have loved any child as much as I loved her, (and still feel I have that love in me!).
> 
> Why is that hard for anyone to understand?


Loving a child that you have fathered isn't always a given. The "much as I could" part of your post seems to suggest that loving your daughter is dependent on her loving you back. 

I don't have problems like you have so I can't speak to what you have experienced relative to what you have been describing as an injustice by the court system.

I don't think you have ever revealed the reasons for the court reacting the way it did. It's my understanding that courts when used to decide the best interests of a child, they rely on investigation.  If you don't want to post about what the investigation revealed I understand you have no obligation to. And you can tell me to butt out of your on going posts about your interaction or lack of with your daughter.


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## Pepper (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Haven't you asked enough questions to satisfy your extraordinary curiosity about my affairs?
> 
> Why not pick on another excluded parent or grandparent and try telling them what they did wrong, (after grilling them for every details of course!  )?


That's a laugh.  ALL of your threads somehow get around to your daughter, your obsession.  I understand you better than you want to realize.  I've had _Experience.  _If you wish to ignore my queries, please do.


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Knight said:


> Loving a child that you have fathered isn't always a given. The "much as I could" part of your post seems to suggest that loving your daughter is dependent on her loving you back.
> I don't have problems like you have so I can't speak to what you have experienced relative to what you have been describing as an injustice by the court system.
> I don't think you have ever revealed the reasons for the court reacting the way it did. It's my understanding that courts when used to decide the best interests of a child, they rely on investigation.  If you don't want to post about what the investigation revealed I understand you have no obligation to. And you can tell me to butt out of your on going posts about your interaction or lack of with your daughter.


I agree with almost everything you've said here, (not your conclusions, though they're well intentioned I accept).

It wasn't a given for me that I should love my own child you are right, and I only really gained in confidence, a found the love inside me when my marriage had ended, so when my daughter was just two years old, (cant fully explain why not, because I did all the fatherly things expected nowadays, changed as many diapers as her mother, spent every hour trying to entertain and care for our child and so on, and she was an absolute pleasure to be around even then, putting aside the six/eight months colic and screaming the house down every evening when I got home from work for four hours, and my main job was holding her to try to give my wife a break so she would be able to breat feed properly).

The court process in the UK has been rightly criticised for so very many years its hard to begin to try to explain what they did wrong, as it were, (not least because not all they did was wrong by any means, and I received the most wonderful support in the courts working under earlier legislation. A court welfare officer called Mrs Hobson, about thirty five years ago lectured my ex as to the need to allow the father to be involved, as my ex was trying to assert to her that "our child hated seeing me", and saying "I have to force her out of the door to see him", but Mrs Hobson was not to be taken in with her nonsense, you could say "she'd seen her like before"!

When things did fall apart, and my daughter was twelve, (an age where under the new legal framework "her views" were to be given prominence, a judge who had previously been helpful to me, commented at the first hearing, and before referring the case to a newly reformed court welfare service, (a change bring more distance between judges and welfare officers I believe), well this very learned and strong minded judge happened to comment that he was impressed by my ex, (or something like that), as she sat in court.

He noticed my look of shock at his comments too, (perhaps he expected it, and was playing a game with me?!).

Anyway, when he'd previously found in my favour over "staying access", (basically five days when my daughter was permitted to stay at my home in Wiltshire, the only period beyond an odd weekend I'd been permitted to that date in ten years of contact), he managed to trip my ex up on a couple of things. He'd asked her whether I had ever been permitted in her house, (I hadn't, and he read something into this as you can perhaps imagine), and the judge told her that allowing "staying access" for a father in regular (weekly/fortnightly etc.,), contact with their child, was only an extension of the time and more likely for the courts to agree to.

In both of those errors my ex adjusted her position, (one followed the other in fact). I was told by my ex that if I asked for staying access again my daughter would refuse all contact with me, (so essentially she'd have found herself going against her mother's prediction f she hadn't refused). Then when my daughter did say "Dont come again", at the end of an almost normal Sunday visit, it was on a day where an aunt and uncle of mine who we'd visited many times at their farm, had wished to invite my daughter and I to join them and their family for a meal at a restaurant, (but I'd had to refuse because my ex had told me our daughter needed to be home earlier that day).

There was no reason, other than the pressure put on our daughter by my ex and her next husband, for my daughter to refuse all contact, and she did so whilst her mother was in view stood on the roadside in front of her home, (a behaviour I'd never witnessed, as my daughter would always appear from behind their front door when I arrived in he morning, and disappear behind it when I returned her to her mother). Oh, and as my daughter's twelfth birthday arrived a week or so later, I got the first and only invite into my ex's house to offer my daughter her small present, (its a bribe my daughter asserting when she turned it down, though if it were a bribe I'm some kind of cheapskate as it was only a box of candy!).

There you have it, (as best as I can tell you the story! )


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Pepper said:


> That's a laugh.  ALL of your threads somehow get around to your daughter, your obsession.  I understand you better than you want to realize.  I've had _Experience.  _If you wish to ignore my queries, please do.


Yes I'll certainly ignore you for all money, and further questioning you wish to engage in "with all your experience",(leading you to false conclusions I'd say, and my twenty one year old medical student daughter did say to her grandparents, about fifteen years ago, but you wouldn't believe that, obviously you woildn't, "you've experience to inform you what a liar I must be" !)


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## Sassycakes (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> My best is not "good enough",
> 
> My best is not enough,
> what should I do?
> ...


_I can sympathize with you. I am in a similar situation. My son went through a difficult divorce. He was responsible for the divorce because he cheated on his wife. They had 2 children and the 2 kids were only 8 and 6yrs old at the time. I gave my son support throughout the situation. I even accepted the woman he cheated with. I gave him financial support also. I gave him my bank card etc. He got mad at me because I still kept in touch with his ex-wife. If I didn't I would have never seen my grandsons again, plus the fact that he never did anything with his boys during and after the divorce. Both boys are young men now and are doing well. They graduated college and have wonderful jobs. My son moved to Las Vegas and never even told me. He never answered a call or email. My husband is also devastated and so is my daughter. He did the wrong and we are getting the blame. I guess you never can tell why children turn against a parent. So please just accept the situation and let it be her problem, not yours. I wish you well._


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## Murrmurr (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Yes I'll certainly ignore you for all money, and further questioning you wish to engage in "with all your experience",(leading you to false conclusions I'd say, and my twenty one year old medical student daughter did say to her grandparents, about fifteen years ago, but you wouldn't believe that, obviously you woildn't, "you've experience to inform you what a liar I must be" !)


Bloody 'ell. If @Pepper called you a liar, I missed it.


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> Bloody 'ell. If @Pepper called you a liar, I missed it.


"Hello again", (must be a fulltime job you've given yourself jumping to the defence of those you think I've offended by saying something fairly innocuous!). 
In a sense though, (whilst someone questioning you all the way down the line isn't calling you a liar), everyone who says "There's two sides to every story", is to an extent saying just that, because of course my ex would give you a different story.

Mrs Hobson, the excellent court welfare officer who met her in 1988 and failed to accept her assertions didn't call her s liar, but wasn't taken in by my ex., (- though my ex proved just what a liar she was by telling a whopper to another court welfare officer and her mate, though as I keep saying "she was the better, more competent parent", so their covering up her lying to them served a purose they could justify "under a system governed by the child's best interests paramount principle)  

Want to keep going, or you just going to wait to step in whenever someone giving me a hard time gets the answer they deserve?


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Sassycakes said:


> _I can sympathize with you. I am in a similar situation. My son went through a difficult divorce. He was responsible for the divorce because he cheated on his wife. They had 2 children and the 2 kids were only 8 and 6yrs old at the time. I gave my son support throughout the situation. I even accepted the woman he cheated with. I gave him financial support also. I gave him my bank card etc. He got mad at me because I still kept in touch with his ex-wife. If I didn't I would have never seen my grandsons again, plus the fact that he never did anything with his boys during and after the divorce. Both boys are young men now and are doing well. They graduated college and have wonderful jobs. My son moved to Las Vegas and never even told me. He never answered a call or email. My husband is also devastated and so is my daughter. He did the wrong and we are getting the blame. I guess you never can tell why children turn against a parent. So please just accept the situation and let it be her problem, not yours. I wish you well._


I dont know how you ever begin to sort that one out, so I'm no help at all.

I had a friend, (who has now sadly passed away), whose eldest son beat up every one of the three wives he had (I think it was three?), and my friend tried to warn the second one what lay in store, and for this "crime" she was shunned by her son for four years, though there were no grandchildren to consider, (my friend had suffered the same thing from the boys father, when she was an army wife, and away in the far East fifty years ago, so she had few to turn to).
She divorced him on her return to England, when her two sons were small children, and never asked for a cent from him, and made as good a job as humanly possible bringing up those two boys, (the second of whom didn't abuse women/wives, though had a false accusation of some kind made against him by the second wife, prompting his first wife to come to his defence!)


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## Murrmurr (May 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> "Hello again"
> 
> Want to keep going...?


No. I was just hoping you'd take my comment at face-value and point out where, if you were indeed called a liar.

(no recap necessary)


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## grahamg (May 6, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> No. I was just hoping you'd take my comment at face-value and point out where, if you were indeed called a liar.
> 
> (no recap necessary)


Haven't I done that to your satisfaction?

Its inferred by anyone and everyone saying "there's always two sides etc.", (what's up with you, have you checked lately whether or not you're the same man you used to be?!), and my comment was about what I thought she would be assuming too!


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## Gary O' (May 6, 2022)

Back to the topic;



grahamg said:


> My best is not "good enough",
> 
> My best is not enough,
> what should I do?
> ...


Sometimes it just isn't

Opportunity will come, however

Best be ready for it


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Back to the topic;
> 
> Sometimes it just isn't. Opportunity will come, however
> Best be ready for it


Very positive post as usual, (didnt expect anything less!).

The good news of course is, "if you've bred a good un", (someone who no doubt is a pleasure for her so many friends and work colleagues to be around), it isn't hard to feel warm feelings towards her.

I'm sorry for all of you who haven't got such a child, (said "tongue in cheek" of course, as we all think like that about our own dont we! )


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## Knight (May 7, 2022)

Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I think in one of your other posts you mentioned your daughter is 35 years old .  That would mean the situation you described was 23 years ago.

By now your daughter should have matured enough to look back or review her life & the way things came about. Hopefully she has matured enough to use the years of different experiences to evaluate the why of the relationship she missed with you.

Still time to enjoy a close relationship if somehow there is a way to let go of the past.


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## Gary O' (May 7, 2022)

Knight said:


> Still time to enjoy a close relationship if somehow there is a way to* let go of the past.*


That's the key


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Knight said:


> Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I think in one of your other posts you mentioned your daughter is 35 years old .  That would mean the situation you described was 23 years ago.
> By now your daughter should have matured enough to look back or review her life & the way things came about. Hopefully she has matured enough to use the years of different experiences to evaluate the why of the relationship she missed with you.
> Still time to enjoy a close relationship if somehow there is a way to let go of the past.


Through my fathers rights campaigning I met both fathers who had been long estranged, and one way or another some people who had become estranged from their parent/father all caused by the pressure they felt they were under from the "custodial parent, (or "residential parent" as they're called now).

In many of those cases it was only when the alienating parent was no longer around, (maybe they'd died or left the country or something), that the relationship with the non residential parent started up again, and some said "it was as though they had never been estranged"!

I dont know whether the same would be true in the case of my daughter or not, but undoubtedly its in her hand now, (or the lap of the God, if the other possible factor is how it lies).


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> That's the key


Maybe you are right, but if you see my post above this one another factor could be the determining one!


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## Knight (May 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Through my fathers rights campaigning I met both fathers who had been long estranged, and one way or another some people who had become estranged from their parent/father all caused by the pressure they felt they were under from the "custodial parent, (or "residential parent" as they're called now).
> 
> In many of those cases it was only when the alienating parent was no longer around, (maybe they'd died or left the country or something), that the relationship with the non residential parent started up again, and some said "it was as though they had never been estranged"!
> 
> I dont know whether the same would be true in the case of my daughter or not, but undoubtedly its in her hand now, (or the lap of the God, if the other possible factor is how it lies).


It's obvious the separation has caused you a lot of emotional pain. But as you age continuing to try to establish a meaningful connection seems to me to be worth the time it might take you.  While rejection hurts you have nothing to lose by continuing to try & everything to gain. At least you will know in your heart that you didn't fail to try.


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## Gary O' (May 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Maybe you are right, but if you see my post above this one another factor could be the determining one!


Yeah, there's stuff.....always is.
The less the better.
Dredging .....rehashing hardly works for the better.
Acceptance, no matter, is the prize


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## Murrmurr (May 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Haven't I done that to your satisfaction?
> 
> ...(*what's up with you, have you checked lately whether or not you're the same man you used to be?*!)...


I was wondering the same about you. I know you can be a bit salty, but bloody 'ell, dude mate.

You've posted about this issue time and again. Some of us follow and are as familiar with it as we can be where public forums are concerned, but none of us are in your shoes. All anyone here can do is offer empathy, comfort, a relatable quote or similar experience, and of course, certain assumptions - we here are all different, and again, not in your shoes. You have nothing to gain from this by being unkind, Graham.


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I was wondering the same about you. I know you can be a bit salty, but bloody 'ell, dude mate.
> 
> You've posted about this issue time and again. Some of us follow and are as familiar with it as we can be where public forums are concerned, but none of us are in your shoes. All anyone here can do is offer empathy, comfort, a relatable quote or similar experience, and of course, certain assumptions - we here are all different, and again, not in your shoes. You have nothing to gain from this by being unkind, Graham.


Okay, reasonable post, thank you.

Above you will read the very kind views of a forum friend, (one I often call my "forum hero" and mean it, and he doesn't disappoint).

However, even here, with his suggestion "moving on" is the way to go, "nothing to be gained by not doing so" etc., very kind and well meaning post, that many would echo I know, has I still think fallen into the trap of believing all should behave in a certain fashion.

We're not really here on this earth to behave just as others do are we, (I know I'm slightly misconstruing his words, but the "move on" comment could be applied to almost everyone in almost every circumstances where something has gone wrong in their lives).

A man called Bill McClaren, a truly great Scotsman, and much loved as a BBC commentator fulfilling the role for many decades. None could match him, nor probably ever will for his wit, humour, personality, warmth and appeal across the globe, wherever rugby union is played, this man I would like to tell you, had an answer when folks told him to "move on" concerning the early death of one of his two daughters due to cancer.

He said no, he was not about to "move on" so far as the death of this girl aged forty, and he would always believe it to be wrong, (or words to that effect).

Similarly, (if I can link myself to such a great sportsman and human being), telling me to move on when I believe everything I'm saying is true, and repeating everything, or aspects of what happened over my daughter as often as I choose is hurting no one, is up to me.

It may not achieve anything, but how many of us can claim our endeavours in life have really "added up to a whole lot of beans", so I'll do as I please on this, (if no one minds, or even if some do, because this is my decision, as it was Bill McClaren's decision to take the attitude he did concerning his own daughter).


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## Pepper (May 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> A man called Bill McClaren, a truly great Scotsman, much loved as a BBC commentator, fulfilling the role for many decades, and none could match him, nor probably ever will for his wit, humour, personality, warmth and appeal across the globe, wherever rugby union is played, *this man had an answer when folks told him to "move on" concerning the early death of one of his two daughters due to cancer.*
> 
> He said no, he was not about to "move on" so far as the death aged forty of this girl, he would always believe it to be wrong, (r words to that effect).
> 
> ...


Your daughter is not dead.  You may be dead to her, but she's not dead.  Dead is really the end, and where there is life there can be hope.  Don't get pissy with me; down, boy.


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Knight said:


> It's obvious the separation has caused you a lot of emotional pain. But as you age continuing to try to establish a meaningful connection seems to me to be worth the time it might take you.  While rejection hurts you have nothing to lose by continuing to try & everything to gain. At least you will know in your heart that you didn't fail to try.


We can all get things wrong in so many ways cant we.

For my part I did not appreciate how much my own mother did for me, (though I believe she never held this against me). She benefitted when developing a lovely relationship with my daughter, all built upon the foundation of my regular contact with my daughter, and taking her on many contact visits to grandma and grandads farmhouse for a very nice roast dinner, (my mother being a dab hand at these having raised seven kinds and all!).

Before anyone jumps in with the comment, "See you were taking your daughter to the home of old people. grandparents too often", (my daughter requested I take her there more often than I did.

My mother said she thought it was because her granddaughter needed to be peaceful, (or "some peace"), though my parents were known for falling out generally, but maybe not so often as they got older, and being entertained by such an engaging grandchild, (mum spoiling her to death too wouldn't harm would it!).

There we go, it is what it is, and furthermore, regardless of what anyone here thinks, "this is a success story" in the sense that I have a daughter who is the bees knees when it comes to achievement, and I'm doubting anyone here can quite match it, even with all your no doubt wonderful children and grandchildren.


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Your daughter is not dead.  You may be dead to her, but she's not dead.  Dead is really the end, and where there is life there can be hope.  Don't get pissy with me; down, boy.


I dont think your argument stands any scrutiny, but I'll leave it there, (okay with you?)!


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## grahamg (May 7, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Okay, reasonable post, thank you. Above you will read the very kind views of a forum friend, (one I often call my "forum hero" and mean it, and he doesn't disappoint). However, even here, with his suggestion "moving on" is the way to go, "nothing to be gained by not doing so" etc., very kind and well meaning post, that many would echo I know, has I still think fallen into the trap of believing all should behave in a certain fashion. We're not really here on this earth to behave just as others do are we, (I know I'm slightly misconstruing his words, but the "move on" comment could be applied to almost everyone in almost every circumstances where something has gone wrong in their lives).
> A man called Bill McClaren, a truly great Scotsman, and much loved as a BBC commentator fulfilling the role for many decades. None could match him, nor probably ever will for his wit, humour, personality, warmth and appeal across the globe, wherever rugby union is played, this man I would like to tell you, had an answer when folks told him to "move on" concerning the early death of one of his two daughters due to cancer.
> 
> He said no, he was not about to "move on" so far as the death of this girl aged forty, and he would always believe it to be wrong, (or words to that effect).
> ...


About Bill McClaren:
"Rugby commentator. Born in Hawick, his father having come to the town to work in the knitwear industry, McLaren played rugby for his home town and for the South of Scotland. His career ended after catching tuberculosis while serving in Italy during World War II. He spent 19 months in the sanatorium at East Fortune in East lothian and his life was undoubtedly saved by the use of a new drug - streptomycin. It was here he gave his first sports commentary for hospital radio. McLaren went on to train as a Physical Education teacher in Aberdeen, teaching in local primary schools until 1987 as well as coaching his favoured sport. In 1953 McLaren began a second career as a commentator with BBC Scotland. Known for his thorough preparation before matches and encyclopaedic knowledge of the game, he was to become 'the voice of rugby' on BBC radio and television for the next fifty years.

McLaren was honoured with an MBE (1992) and an OBE (1995). In 2000, he received the Royal Television Society Sports Award for outstanding contributions to broadcasting and, in 2001, was the first to be inducted into the International Rugby Hall of Fame who was not a player for international standing. He finally retired from the BBC in 2002, with his final commentary at the Melrose Sevens, and was awarded a CBE in the 2003 New Year Honours List. His autobiography _The Voice of Rugby_ appeared in 2004."

A report:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/obituary-bill-mclaren-most-famous-1940738

More on Bill McClaren:
https://www.ruck.co.uk/20-of-the-best-quotes-from-the-voice-of-rugby-bill-mclaren/

At work commentating:





Talking about his life:


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