# JFK, Jr



## oldman (Sep 1, 2016)

I have been a commercial airline pilot for almost 34 years. I initially worked for Air Wisconsin, flying regional flights. After all but 8 years, I was finally offered a job by United and eagerly accepted. It took me another eight years to make Captain and when I retired from United, my title was Senior Captain. In all of those years, I have read hundreds of books and stories about flying. Flying is my passion. 

Today, surprisingly that it took so long, I finally read the story of JFK, Jr and his last flight over the Atlantic on his way to Martha's Vineyard to drop off his sister-in-law before flying on to Hyannis Port with his wife for his cousin's wedding. I was surprised to read that John was not IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) certified. John, Jr was only certified to fly by using VFR (Visual Flight Rules). Apparently, the NTSB concluded that he had spatial disorientation while he was out over the ocean. Can you imagine being up in the air with no landmarks or lights to follow? The ceiling is black, the ground is black and everything in between is black. It's like flying in a big black hole. This is how one acquires spacial disorientation. It is like someone spinning you around real fast and then putting you in a black closet and telling you to find the door.  

The investigation had also found his autopilot had been turned off, which makes no sense for someone that does not know how to fly by instruments only. Some people speculated that there was a government cover up (what else is new) and that the government killed John when they learned that he was considering a run for the senate against Hillary Clinton. Others have said that he decided not to run after he found out that Hillary was also considering a run. 

When I flew over water for the first few times, I can remember how eerie and unconventional it was. It was all very confusing for a short time. Of course, I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in a simulator that allowed me to gain the experience necessary to fly at night over water. This is something that John, Jr did not have the luxury of. I learned very quickly to trust my instruments, which again is something that John, Jr. did not do. IMO, John just did not have enough flying experience using instruments. I think we all missed out on potentially having an outstanding individual as a leader of our country. Although I have never personally met John, Jr, I have heard him speak and he came across as someone who is a very caring and intelligent person. 

The other thing that bothered me was that according to the story that I read, John's flying instructor had offered to go along with him because he was aware that John lacked experience flying in the conditions that he was about to fly through. I wish his instructor would have been more convincing and John would have conceded and allowed the instructor to go along.


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## Falcon (Sep 1, 2016)

Oldman, You may remember that I was a USAF  pilot  (B-26  Martin Marauder.)

So I agree with what you said about instrument flying because I've also done it many times.

Are you "hinting" that there was a conspiracy to somehow "get rid"  of young  JFK Jr.  looking forward to today's
political arena?   You may be correct.


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## oldman (Sep 1, 2016)

Falcon.. I never know what to believe with the stuff that comes out of Washington or Hollywood. It seems as both places have their issues. I remember when the tabloids made a big deal about all of the people that were killed when Clinton was in office. The only two that I found fishy was when Ron Brown and Vince Foster died. Both stories sounded made up, but we will never know. I flew many congress people out of Washington. Dulles was my home airport. One congressman (Democrat) made the statement that the only thing that kept Lewinsky alive was the fact that she kept and hid her dress with the "stain" on it. That may or may not have been a joke. I didn't know how to take it, but we all laughed when he told the story.

Being a young pilot with not a lot of flying hours, I can understand how Kennedy may have became disoriented. I read that his GPS was also shattered in the crash, but it was turned on. I still don't know why he turned off his Autopilot.


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## fureverywhere (Sep 1, 2016)

At the moment I have maybe twenty five titles about the Kennedy clan. Not so much devoted admiration as what interesting lives they led. But from everything I've read, JFK Jr. had no business piloting a plane that fateful night. It seems that flying was a hobby and his plane was like a new toy. Within a week of his plane crash he had a walking cast removed from his leg due to a hang gliding type of accident. He was not instrument trained and like all the reports have said...even seasoned pilots had difficulty that night. I don't think it was "covered up" as much as just pilot error. Oh and having more money than G-d means the family could buy their privacy for the funeral and investigation.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 1, 2016)

They talk a lot about conspiracy theories (or cover ups) on the CoasttoCoast AM radio show, here's a short video they had there.


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## oldman (Sep 2, 2016)

The Ron Brown crash was the most confusing to me. After reading several reports of the plane crash, I have several questions, which no one seems to have answers for.  

After reading several reports of the JFK, Jr. accident, I am satisfied that his crash was due to pilot error. But, it was a genuine tragedy. The man had all the tools to be anything that he wanted to be.


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## oldman (Sep 2, 2016)

Two things that pilots dislike the most; *1. Being late* 2. Runway changes.


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## Ameriscot (Sep 2, 2016)

oldman said:


> The Ron Brown crash was the most confusing to me. After reading several reports of the plane crash, I have several questions, which no one seems to have answers for.
> 
> After reading several reports of the JFK, Jr. accident, I am satisfied that his crash was due to pilot error. But, it was a genuine tragedy. The man had all the tools to be anything that he wanted to be.



I remember the Ron Brown crach.  Very suspicious. 

And I was quite upset about JFK Jrs crash which should never have happened.  I still saw him as that little boy saluting his dad's casket.


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## jnos (Sep 2, 2016)

oldman, thanks for posting this topic and your observations, as an experienced pilot. I'm fascinated but no little about the topic. Falcon, your input was good too. I had high hopes for JFK whether he would have chosen politics or not. 


SeaBreeze, I seldom watch YouTube videos, but that one was really interesting. Thanks for posting. My husband is a believer in most conspiracy theories and loves to read and watch specials on them. I've copied the link to Dark5.tv for him.


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## oldman (Sep 6, 2016)

We had several people here at the our home yesterday for an outdoor party and this topic came up for discussion. Someone made the comment that Junior was being big-headed and that was why he turned down his flight instructor's offer to go along. I had to remind him that the trip was to be in daylight, which had it been, he would have made it OK, but it turned out to be a trip in the dark. My suggestion would have been to wait until early the next morning and then leave, but I was quickly reminded that some people in that class do not get out of bed before noon. I didn't have a comeback for that remark because I don't know one way or the other when they get out of bed. So, for the sake of argument, I could only say, "Oh, well."


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## Butterfly (Sep 6, 2016)

From what I've read, it seems to me he was anxious to get going in daylight, and then one of the women (I think it was his sister-in-law) was late and their takeoff was delayed and he was too stubborn to just not go till morning.  Probably a macho thing and he didn't want to admit he might not be competent in the dark.  I'm sure he really believed he could do it and it would all be OK.  Some folks just don't believe the bad thing will happen to them.

If I was getting on a small airplane (although me and God have a deal that I will NEVER get on a single engine plane again as long as I live) I'd want to make damn sure the pilot knew what he was doing, and if I had any doubt at all I'd get off.


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## oldman (Sep 8, 2016)

I agree. Single engine planes never called to me, either. I like flying with multiple engines. That way, I have a chance if one goes kaput. I did start flying at flight school in a single engine plane. I think it was a Cessna 150. First time up, the instructor had trouble keeping the engine running while still on the ground. I asked him if he was sure that it wasn't going to quit once we were airborn. He told me not to worry because he would fly it as a glider if the engine shut sown. I told him that telling me that did not quiet my nerves.


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## fureverywhere (Sep 8, 2016)

Sometimes wealth can be dangerous. They say JFK Jr. could be a bit of a thrill seeker. The average thrill seeking young man couldn't afford a plane as a toy. Sometimes it's almost a personality disorder. Reminds me of a musician I read about. He was a senior but had always collected cars. Not surprisingly he died in a car crash...very high speed and he was on the phone.


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## Carla (Sep 8, 2016)

He made a poor choice. I think it was Carolyn who was late that day if I recall correctly. I don't know, sometimes I believe when it's our time, then it shall be. When there is sudden loss, we tend to relive everything to figure if there is something we could have done to avoid it. Maybe, or maybe not, who really knows? Yes, in hindsight he had a couple alternatives but he chose to go and take that chance. It was a terrible tragedy.


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## Butterfly (Sep 9, 2016)

oldman said:


> I agree. Single engine planes never called to me, either. I like flying with multiple engines. That way, I have a chance if one goes kaput. I did start flying at flight school in a single engine plane. I think it was a Cessna 150. First time up, the instructor had trouble keeping the engine running while still on the ground. I asked him if he was sure that it wasn't going to quit once we were airborn. He told me not to worry because he would fly it as a glider if the engine shut sown. I told him that telling me that did not quiet my nerves.



Never again! Single engine plane at night, in a bad storm with thunder and lightning, a stall, pouring rain and a VERY bad landing -- not exactly a crash, but a VERY bad landing.  I wanted to kiss the earth.  I was so terrified that I didn't even notice that I had broken my arm until a couple of  hours later.  If I can't go on a big passenger plane with a REAL pilot, I don't need to go.


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## oldman (Sep 9, 2016)

I guess by now, everyone is aware that a movie is being made or is ready for release about the "Miracle On The Hudson."  I will definitely be a ticket buyer to that movie. Hanks will be playing "Sully" Sullenberger. Sully was acclaimed as a hero for just reasons. I remember when Ethiopian Airlines ditched into the Indian Ocean after being hijacked and the plane broke apart. The plane was a Boeing 767, which also happens to be the plane that I spent most of my time in as I flew coast to coast. Big difference between landing on a river, which is more docile compared to an ocean that has waves and white caps. Nonetheless, Sully is to be praised for his landing and saving 150 lives.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 15, 2016)

Very sad! He was our nation's first little prince. May they R.I.P.


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## oldman (Jan 24, 2017)

OK, so now the Smithsonian Channel is showing the JFK, Jr accident on TV. It appears that his attitude indicator was showing that the plane was in a severe bank at the time of the accident. The investigators from the NTSB have come to the conclusion that Jr did not believe in his instruments and tried to correct the bank, but instead he made it worse by over correcting the bank, which put the plane into a bit of a roll with nose down. If that was the case, all that I can say is "game over."

Flying at 5500 feet and 160 mph, he would have had only seconds to straighten out the plane. IOW, he ran out of time and airspace. With the plane being inverted and nose down, even an expert could not have saved the plane.


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## Butterfly (Jan 24, 2017)

From what I've read, he had no business trying to make that trip in the dark in the first place.


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