# How Can We Stop Killing



## Ruthanne (Mar 3, 2020)

From my Catholic upbringing I have always believed that killing was wrong, very wrong.  Yet, It happens all the time.  I realize sometimes people have to be stopped from killing at many expenses..but isn't there a better way to stop it?  I have seen that many other ways have sometimes been used like rubber bullets and so forth..what's your answer to this?


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## Ruthanne (Mar 3, 2020)

And furthermore, we need to start using other measures to control people who go violent...after all we are all lible to do that given the right circumstances


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## win231 (Mar 3, 2020)

In a perfect world of make believe, it would never be necessary to kill because there would be no evil.  But we live In the real world, where there is evil.
Rubber bullets are fine - to disperse rioters who are only bent on causing trouble - but are not killing or causing serious injury.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> In a perfect world of make believe, it would never be necessary to kill because there would be no evil.  But we live In the real world, where there is evil.
> Rubber bullets are fine - to disperse rioters who are only bent on causing trouble - but are not killing or causing serious injury.


So what is your answer to control the killing @win231


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## terry123 (Mar 3, 2020)

I would think that tasers could be used if possible.  I am against killing but sometimes I think you try to stop something and instead of slowly something down someone dies. I think about what my daddy said a few times about somebody he did not like "he's not worth killing".  We knew he disliked the person quite a bit!


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## win231 (Mar 3, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> So what is your answer to control the killing @win231


If you're referring to criminals killing & hurting others, there is no answer.  Evil people are part of the human race.
If you're referring to killing in self defense to prevent an evil act, again, there is no answer.


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## win231 (Mar 3, 2020)

terry123 said:


> I would think that tasers could be used if possible.  I am against killing but sometimes I think you try to stop something and instead of slowly something down someone dies. I think about what my daddy said a few times about somebody he did not like "he's not worth killing".  We knew he disliked the person quite a bit!


I am familiar with Tasers, as well as firearms.  Tasers have certain limitations that you may not be aware of.
A Taser fires 2 darts that are connected to wires that are about 20 feet in length.  As long as the darts are in clothing, they can deliver enough of an electric shock to incapacitate an attacker.
BUT, if an attacker is further than 20 feet away & is armed, a Taser is useless.
And, a Taser is limited to ONE shot & no fast reload.  If that one shot misses, that's the end of the game.  Rats run in packs & if there is more than one attacker, the Taser will be useless.
And, any police officer who has used a Taser will tell you it is not always effective - due to an attacker being on certain drugs that cause a Taser to have NO effect at all.
Why do you suppose police officers carry firearms - that hold 17 shots & extra magazines that hold 17 apiece & can be reloaded in 1.5 seconds, in addition to their Tasers?  And assault rifles in their vehicles that hold 30 rounds & are more deadly than their handguns?


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## Rosemarie (Mar 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> If you're referring to criminals killing & hurting others, there is no answer.  Evil people are part of the human race.
> If you're referring to killing in self defense to prevent an evil act, again, there is no answer.


That's a sensible response. It's too easy to be emotional about this issue. Rational common sense is needed. Personally , I think that if the police are faced with a mob throwing stones and petrol bombs at them, I think they should be able to defend themselves in any way they can, which includes killing if necessary.


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## Butterfly (Mar 4, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> And furthermore, we need to start using other measures to control people who go violent...after all we are all lible to do that given the right circumstances



With respect, I think this is a bit of an oversimplification.   Perhaps we are all capable of violence given the right circumstances -- but those "right circumstances" vary widely.  I would be capable of violence to save my own life or the life of a loved one, but I cannot think of any right circumstance where I would be capable of random violence, like random shootings or mass shooting.  Some people see "right circumstances" to be that they are pissed off at the world in general, or an employer, or a certain group of people, or they kill others to take their money or drugs or whatever.   

I agree that there is no answer, but rubber bullets or tasers are not going to stop extreme violence, and in the case of mass or random shooters, etc., the only sensible goal is to take them out, one way or another, and if that involves killing the doer to save more lives, then so be it.


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 4, 2020)

IMO it's a part of who we are and will never change.

The best that we can hope for is to control violence and minimize the risk of death to the general public.

I have wondered why we cannot develop tranquilizer darts similar to those used on animals to bring down a violent person in a stand-off situation.


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## fmdog44 (Mar 4, 2020)

There are unlimited responses on this subject. Just today for example a mentally ill actress was shot to death by police after she pointed a gun at them but the gun was a BB gun. Give me one good reason a company would make a BB gun to look like a real gun. Why not use a large rubber bullet to knock someone flat on their back stunning them? Tasers work but if a person has a gun then that is bringing a knife to a gun fight. The OP asks is there a better way to stop the killing. Sadly, I would answer what person would join the force if they were not allowed to shoot a person pointing a gun at them? If I had a child or spouse that could not shoot I would be worried ick every time they left the house. Doesn't it go back to the discussion of the role of  mental health in the mass shootings?


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## Lee (Mar 4, 2020)

It will never stop unless these things happen and even then would still continue to a lesser degree.

Take away all guns except for the purpose of animal hunting or for law enforcement and if a person gets caught using it for other purposes then jail time.

Stop the violence on television and movies, all these shows do is glorify death, torture, etc.

Ditto....The violent video games

Bring back the peace sign.


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## old medic (Mar 4, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> From my Catholic upbringing I have always believed that killing was wrong


Well God killed everything but pairs and one family to rid the world of Evil.... That had to include alot of INNOCENT children.
Guess hes the original Re-Booter...
Islam basically tells you to KILL any non believers that dont convert... 
Look at what good Christians did to the Natives here in the Americas...
The Human animal is a civilized top of the chain predator, some more civilized and compassionate than others.
I Try to be one of those... But I would not hesitate to respond with extreme violent's to protect me and my own.
Do agree there are to many incidents of Police being over aggressive in their response to a situation, But they HAVE TO...
You have a split second to make a choice on your response, As I do in my job... and a life hangs in the balance..
My job. its the patient, with a cop its you that may not go home.


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## old medic (Mar 4, 2020)

Lee said:


> Take away all guns except for the purpose of animal hunting or for law enforcement and if a person gets caught using it for other purposes then jail time.


Im sure every CRIMINAL will immediately run to the police station and turn in their weapons... 
Since you might put them in jail if they commit a crime with it... Something that they should go to jail for WITHOUT IT...
Some star was ROBBED in ENGLAND... by several Thugs with KNIVES...
Had it been ME... HERE... its possible there would be a few LESS Thugs....


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## toffee (Mar 4, 2020)

dont think we would have control killing in the UK ' anyone now using a gun especially terrorists are shot on the spot '
dont think we need to keep the evil in prisons - then let them out to start again -we have seen such horrific episodes over 
here on buses blown apart trains full --police stabbed to death and tourists …

So no we dont need rubber bullets .. !!!!.


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## Lee (Mar 4, 2020)

old medic said:


> Im sure every CRIMINAL will immediately run to the police station and turn in their weapons...



No, of course not, But once that gun is used and if they are caught then the gun could be confiscated and destroyed.


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## old medic (Mar 4, 2020)

Lee said:


> No, of course not, But once that gun is used and if they are caught


But in the meantime its OK to take mine????


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## Lvstotrvl (Mar 4, 2020)

It’s been said more than once, if you take our guns away you’ll have another Holocaust on our hands, is it true, who knows but I sure don’t want to find out!!


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## Ronni (Mar 4, 2020)

While I am morally and intellectually against killing, I know with absolute certainty that i would kill without hesitation to protect my loved ones.  I have no idea what that says about me, but it's where i stand.


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## Pepper (Mar 4, 2020)

old medic said:


> Some star was ROBBED in ENGLAND... by several Thugs with KNIVES...


Are you talking about Harry Styles?


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## rgp (Mar 4, 2020)

Lvstotrvl said:


> It’s been said more than once, if you take our guns away you’ll have another Holocaust on our hands, is it true, who knows but I sure don’t want to find out!!




I remember as a kid, asking my dad {a WWII vet} how the Nazi's were able to do what they did. He said well, mostly because they [the Jews] had very few / no guns. And some of the Jews that did have them hesitated to take a life themselves.


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## Knight (Mar 4, 2020)

I think the Op realizes that killing is situational, pointing out rubber bullets as one option. 


But since there are so many situations maybe the OP can put herself in this situation.

She is a police officer, she is visiting a school for show & tell day for her 6 yr. old daughter. 

A man enters her daughters classroom armed with guns and begins shooting kids. Does she plead with the shooter, take out her nightstick, her taser, or her gun to stop the slaughter of innocent children. Remember police officers are trained to prevent further deaths.


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## Don M. (Mar 4, 2020)

Based upon my life's experiences, I am convinced that about 10% of our population is "borderline nuts".  Anything, at any time, can trigger them to commit a violent act.  Some people criticize the police when they shoot someone, but in the vast majority of cases, the cop has little choice.  In most of the inner cities, street gangs and illegal drugs are the root cause for most the murder statistics....how does society convince those people to stop "glorifying" that activity?? 

Some people think that confiscating guns is the answer.....but, there are already so many unregistered guns in this nation, that such action would only be honored by the law abiding people.....leaving millions of guns in the hands of the criminals, exposing lawfull people to even more likelihood of becoming a victim. 

Humans are probably the Most Violent species of life on this planet, and nothing I know of is likely to change that.


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## win231 (Mar 4, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it's a part of who we are and will never change.
> 
> The best that we can hope for is to control violence and minimize the risk of death to the general public.
> 
> I have wondered why we cannot develop tranquilizer darts similar to those used on animals to bring down a violent person in a stand-off situation.


A tranquilizer dart releases a drug that takes several minutes to work.  What can a criminal do in several minutes?


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## Pecos (Mar 4, 2020)

Ruthanne

"From my Catholic upbringing I have always believed that killing was wrong, very wrong.  Yet, It happens all the time.  I realize sometimes people have to be stopped from killing at many expenses..but isn't there a better way to stop it?  I have seen that many other ways have sometimes been used like rubber bullets and so forth..what's your answer to this?"

This is a very tough question and I don't think any of us has the answer until the "moment of truth" is upon us. 
In my case, I already know that I have a protective nature that would come into play pretty quickly.

For American society as a whole, I doubt that we will never eliminate killing. We will be lucky if we can even get it reduced.


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## Gaer (Mar 4, 2020)

My 2 cents:  Killing is not bad.  Murder is bad.  Guns don't kill people.  People kill people.  If you point a gun at someone, be fully ready to kill him, and take the consequences.  If you kill someone on your front porch, drag him inside and claim self defense.  I am against gun registration and gun confiscation.  
I know that sounds pretty rough but my late husband was a Federal Marshal.  Some of his views rubbed off on me.


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## Pepper (Mar 4, 2020)

Gaer said:


> If you point a gun at someone, be fully ready to kill him, and take the consequences.


That's what my husband taught me when we had guns.  We were living in a gun state, everyone was armed.  Three murders a year in this state.  In the 1980's.  He said, "Don't point a gun unless you intend to use it."


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## Butterfly (Mar 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> A tranquilizer dart releases a drug that takes several minutes to work.  What can a criminal do in several minutes?



Kill a whole bunch more people with an assault rifle, that's for sure.


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## Butterfly (Mar 4, 2020)

Pepper said:


> That's what my husband taught me when we had guns.  We were living in a gun state, everyone was armed.  Three murders a year in this state.  In the 1980's.  He said, "Don't point a gun unless you intend to use it."



That was one of the first lessons from my dad when he was teaching us to shoot.


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## win231 (Mar 4, 2020)

Lee said:


> It will never stop unless these things happen and even then would still continue to a lesser degree.
> 
> Take away all guns except for the purpose of animal hunting or for law enforcement and if a person gets caught using it for other purposes then jail time.
> 
> ...


LOL.  Do they make a hunting gun that automatically won't fire if it's pointed at a person?


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## fmdog44 (Mar 4, 2020)

To me it is not an issue of the morality of killing rather one of fear of a life in prison. I had a 357 pointed at a guy that kicked down my front door back in the 80s. He froze at the door landing when he saw me and I did not shoot but my first thought was prison though I would most likely have never been charged in Texas. I could never survive life in a cage.


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## Camper6 (Mar 4, 2020)

Crime pays. That's the reason people kill. And not just with guns. 

The threat of jail or execution doesn't seem to be ank kind of  Deterrent except for the righteous.


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## old medic (Mar 5, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Are you talking about Harry Styles?



Sounds right.... Caught it on the news....
Charlotte had a well loved restaurant owner murdered.... Just nabbed the guy... 
Had only been out of prison 3 months for another armed robbery.
An immediate 22 behind the ear is the only answer for these folks....
It MAY be a deterrent to others... But defiantly will stop a repeat offender...


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## SeaBreeze (Mar 5, 2020)

People have been killing each other since the beginning of time, that will never end.  Some cops do the jobs they were hired to do, protect and serve, and they will do anything to avoid taking someone's life if there are any other options.  But cops are human, some racists, and will use their power to kill using a simple violation as an excuse.  I personally would kill to save my own life or my husband's with no hesitation.  Otherwise my motto is live and let live, I'm not full of hate and I despise violence.


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## fuzzybuddy (Mar 5, 2020)

The more people die, and the less we do about it, I think what the gun nuts fear most is that we are going to take away their toys. I don't buy the "guns don't kill" nonsense. It's really hard to bring down foes, by throwing bullets at them.  I also don't buy the argument that someone needs a gun for "personal" protection. No one needs a do-it-yourself police force.  I probably won't see weapons removed from the populace in my time, but I think it's inevitable.


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## rgp (Mar 5, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> The more people die, and the less we do about it, I think what the gun nuts fear most is that we are going to take away their toys. I don't buy the "guns don't kill" nonsense. It's really hard to bring down foes, by throwing bullets at them.  I also don't buy the argument that someone needs a gun for "personal" protection. No one needs a do-it-yourself police force.  I probably won't see weapons removed from the populace in my time, but I think it's inevitable.




  "I also don't buy the argument that someone needs a gun for "personal" protection. No one needs a do-it-yourself police force."

  So.......if a bad guy is breaking into your house, or has already broken in......do you really think he is going to just wait there & not harm you, and let you dial 911 ?


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## CarolfromTX (Mar 5, 2020)

Love how you refer to "gun nuts," as though anyone who owns a firearm is a fanatic. There are plenty of law abiding, reasonable gun owners. The founding fathers put the second amendment in there for a reason, so citizens could protect themselves.


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## Butterfly (Mar 5, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> Love how you refer to "gun nuts," as though anyone who owns a firearm is a fanatic. There are plenty of law abiding, reasonable gun owners. The founding fathers put the second amendment in there for a reason, so citizens could protect themselves.



Agreed!  I am not a "gun nut," but I own firearms and I've never felt the least inclination to do anything crazy.  I would not hesitate to use said weapon to save my own life or that of a loved one.

If someone has broken into your house, it's too late to expect the police to get there in time to stop anyone intent on doing you harm.

Also, to Fuzzybuddy, my weapons are not "toys."  They are tools for my own protection.  I know how to use them responsibly and safely, and for the purpose for which they are intended, i.e., self-protection.


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## win231 (Mar 5, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> The more people die, and the less we do about it, I think what the gun nuts fear most is that we are going to take away their toys. I don't buy the "guns don't kill" nonsense. It's really hard to bring down foes, by throwing bullets at them.  I also don't buy the argument that someone needs a gun for "personal" protection. No one needs a do-it-yourself police force.  I probably won't see weapons removed from the populace in my time, but I think it's inevitable.


Nothing wrong with anyone choosing NOT to own a gun - for any purpose.  That's your choice.  But you don't have the right to make that choice for anyone else.


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## win231 (Mar 5, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> The more people die, and the less we do about it, I think what the gun nuts fear most is that we are going to take away their toys. I don't buy the "guns don't kill" nonsense. It's really hard to bring down foes, by throwing bullets at them.  I also don't buy the argument that someone needs a gun for "personal" protection. No one needs a do-it-yourself police force.  I probably won't see weapons removed from the populace in my time, but I think it's inevitable.



^^^^ A shining example of someone who likes to control others by telling them what they should & shouldn't do & how they should live.


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## Gardenlover (Mar 5, 2020)

People who "try" and label others have already lost the debate.


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## fuzzybuddy (Mar 6, 2020)

Of course, every gun owner is a law abiding, responsible citizen. And guns are in no way associated with any kind of violence. But you do have to wonder why guns have been used in every war since they were invented. Why? Is it that they are efficient, and easy killing machines?   The reason for having a gun is ultimately to kill something. In the US, we allow anyone to have a weapon. regardless of any 'gun' laws. Why do some feel the need to possess a method of killing others? Because the "others" supposedly have guns. If there were no guns, the threat of loosing ones existence is almost eliminated. I believe that when the current gun loving generation passes on, there just won't be the fervor to possess guns. It will be deemed that guns aren't worth the grief they bring. In 20 years , those Florida school students are going to be taking over.
I know there are some who like guns in this forum. As to law abiding gun owners .....We want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but I can personally sell weapons to anyone I meet in a dark alley. I don't even have to know their names. You're OK with that? Some one is robbed of 300 weapons, but won't tell the police, because of "privacy" issues. But someone swipes the kid's bike, and they are all over the cops.
And, yes, I'm anti-gun. Years ago,this guy showed up at my place with a gun.  Scared the hell out of me. He was an idiot. He was the type of person, who would try to light his cigarette, by shooting off the end, in the middle of a crowded bar. Why would I think somebody could be that stupid, because he did it.


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## old medic (Mar 6, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> We want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but I can personally sell weapons to anyone I meet in a dark alley.


THAT MAKES YOU THE CRIMINAL.....
And in another 20 years them same folks may be getting on trains.....


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## charry (Mar 6, 2020)

how can we stop killing ?    we cant , and never will.
....


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## Knight (Mar 6, 2020)

I'm not anti gun I realize guns make killing easier and less personal. By that I mean before spears clubs were used. Spears were great for awhile but not as effective as swords. Swords were great until bows & arrows made it possible to kill from a distance. Killing from a distance was less personal. Of course there are other ways like the entertainment by gladiators for the Roman public or hooking a man up to 4 horses & pulling him apart

Mankind has always been inventive when it comes to killing. So if all guns are melted then what? Anyone think mankind will stop killing?


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## win231 (Mar 6, 2020)

Knight said:


> I'm not anti gun I realize guns make killing easier and less personal. By that I mean before spears clubs were used. Spears were great for awhile but not as effective as swords. Swords were great until bows & arrows made it possible to kill from a distance. Killing from a distance was less personal. Of course there are other ways like the entertainment by gladiators for the Roman public or hooking a man up to 4 horses & pulling him apart
> 
> Mankind has always been inventive when it comes to killing. So if all guns are melted then what? Anyone think mankind will stop killing?


Yes, those individuals who live in a fantasy land of their own making.


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## squatting dog (Mar 6, 2020)

Sorry fuzzy, but my grandchildren are all down in Florida and since I raised them to respect and not fear guns, they're not going to be yowling to confiscate guns. Quite the contrary, I suspect they will grow up to be responsible adults who are comfortable  with guns in the house.
By the way, my guns are not toys and I'm a bit insulted that you would basically call me and others a nut all because one person (obviously an idiot) who scared you with a gun has obviously scarred you for life.


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## win231 (Mar 6, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Of course, every gun owner is a law abiding, responsible citizen. And guns are in no way associated with any kind of violence. But you do have to wonder why guns have been used in every war since they were invented. Why? Is it that they are efficient, and easy killing machines?   The reason for having a gun is ultimately to kill something. In the US, we allow anyone to have a weapon. regardless of any 'gun' laws. Why do some feel the need to possess a method of killing others? Because the "others" supposedly have guns. If there were no guns, the threat of loosing ones existence is almost eliminated. I believe that when the current gun loving generation passes on, there just won't be the fervor to possess guns. It will be deemed that guns aren't worth the grief they bring. In 20 years , those Florida school students are going to be taking over.
> I know there are some who like guns in this forum. As to law abiding gun owners .....We want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but I can personally sell weapons to anyone I meet in a dark alley. I don't even have to know their names. You're OK with that? Some one is robbed of 300 weapons, but won't tell the police, because of "privacy" issues. But someone swipes the kid's bike, and they are all over the cops.
> And, yes, I'm anti-gun. Years ago,this guy showed up at my place with a gun.  Scared the hell out of me. He was an idiot. He was the type of person, who would try to light his cigarette, by shooting off the end, in the middle of a crowded bar. Why would I think somebody could be that stupid, because he did it.


Just a FYI:  The term "Ignorant" means having a lack of knowledge, being uninformed; not necessarily "stupid."
Yes, guns are an efficient killing machine.  I'm glad they are.  If they weren't, they would be useless.  A gun evens the odds if a 20-year-old thug decides to victimize an old guy like me.
If there were "no guns," the threat of "loosing" (losing) one's existence will not be eliminated; there are many ways of hurting or killing someone.  Killing is a matter of will - not the availability of weapons.
Instead of complaining & tired, old rhetoric & drivel, why not suggest a solution - how would you propose to keep guns out of the hands of criminals...who "buy guns in dark alleys?" as opposed to how I bought mine - in a retail store after passing a detailed background check & safety & proficiency tests?
While you're at it, think of the 25,000 people killed each year by drunk drivers; how would you propose to keep cars out of their hands if they drive illegally - as most do?
How would you propose to keep illegal drugs out of people's hands?

The point is NOT whether cars kill more people than guns; the point is: Anyone can get anything they want by breaking the law.  That's why more laws & restrictions don't work.  You can't legislate criminal behavior & you can't legislate stupidity.
Example:  The school shooter in Connecticut - Adam Lanza was prohibited from gun ownership due to mental illness, so his idiotic mother bought him guns & ammunition. How would you prevent that?
And anyone can use an inanimate object for evil purposes - 186 people were killed in less than one second in the Federal Building in Oklahoma - more than triple the number killed in the worst mass shooting.  The weapon:  Diesel fuel & fertilizer.....available to anyone.


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## Gardenlover (Mar 7, 2020)

Criminals have more to gain than lose, so there is no incentive for them not to commit the crime. If caught, they serve a little jail time and then their back on the streets again, with more street cred than before. In some cases prison life can be better than what the criminal has on the outside. 

Severe consequences for the offenders is the only way to to curb their lust for such activities.


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## exwisehe (Mar 7, 2020)

Specifically, I worry more about our schools

In 2019, eight people were killed and 43 were injured in 25 shooting incidents that occurred on school grounds or during school-sponsored events, according to Education Week.

I worry about our grandchildren, who are still in jr. high. All of the background checks, gun control, mental health checks, etc are all good, but many times they fail to ferret out the danger cases. And you can't blame the teachers because their day is already very busy..

Suppose, for example, you are a loving dad with 2 daughters at a school in your home town. Driving to work, you hear a disconcerting report that there might be an active shooter at the school. Your school has agreed to some trained armed staff who have been instructed to kill if necessary, and there is a sign at the entrance to the school that makes that clear.  

You go into a panic, and obviously scurry to the school, but on the radio the news comes that the shooter has been wounded by an armed teacher and is in custody. How do you feel? (and be honest)    You, like me, would give thanks for the trained teacher who was there at that critical time.

Remember the line from the movie "A Few Good Men"? I'll change a word or two.  For those who criticize the trained teachers (with apologies to Jack Nicholson) "*We live in schools that has halls, and those halls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? ACounselor?  The coach? I have a greater **responsibility** than you could possibly fathom, and that's protecting those students*" *And you want me in those halls! You need me on those halls!*

This is hard for me to admit as a former teacher, but I think it would save a lot of student’s lives.


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## Butterfly (Mar 7, 2020)

Knight said:


> I'm not anti gun I realize guns make killing easier and less personal. By that I mean before spears clubs were used. Spears were great for awhile but not as effective as swords. Swords were great until bows & arrows made it possible to kill from a distance. Killing from a distance was less personal. Of course there are other ways like the entertainment by gladiators for the Roman public or hooking a man up to 4 horses & pulling him apart
> 
> Mankind has always been inventive when it comes to killing. So if all guns are melted then what? Anyone think mankind will stop killing?



Not a chance.


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## Butterfly (Mar 7, 2020)

I wish somebody would define "gun nut" before they start throwing that term around.  Is anyone who owns a firearm a so-called "gun nut?"  I don't think so.  That's like saying I'm a "can opener nut" because I own one.


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## old medic (Mar 9, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I wish somebody would define "gun nut" before they start throwing that term around


It a term used by Folks to negatively describe any one who Owns a legal weapon, Or stands up for the 2nd Amendment.
If you support Border security or terrorist restriction your a Xenophobe ....
If you dont support Same sex marriage your  Homophobic... 
Don't believe in abortion... your depressing woman's rights
If you support Southern Heritage your a Racist...

We must also take away all Cars and Alcohol.... to protect us from Criminals.....
I MEAN ITS FOR YOUR SAFETY.....
https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/c...blvd/275-3d1e3b12-d23c-48b5-af56-e8b8acd74eda


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## rgp (Mar 9, 2020)

old medic said:


> It a term used by Folks to negatively describe any one who Owns a legal weapon, Or stands up for the 2nd Amendment.
> If you support Border security or terrorist restriction your a Xenophobe ....
> If you dont support Same sex marriage your  Homophobic...
> Don't believe in abortion... your depressing woman's rights
> ...




  It really has become that bad.....and that is sad!


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## rgp (Mar 9, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I wish somebody would define "gun nut" before they start throwing that term around.  Is anyone who owns a firearm a so-called "gun nut?"  I don't think so.  That's like saying I'm a "can opener nut" because I own one.




 Toaster nut here.......The insane have have truly taken over the asylum.........


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## old medic (Mar 9, 2020)

rgp said:


> It really has become that bad.....and that is sad!


I hold hope for the future... Our Grandsons 8, was here last weekend... Play on the computer??? the Phone????
Nope... Chopping wood for the fire pit, and keeping it fed, Cutting trails for riding his bike, and shooting his BB Gun.


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

no reply.


----------



## Nathan (Nov 30, 2021)

old medic said:


> It a term used by Folks to negatively describe any one who Owns a legal weapon, Or stands up for the 2nd Amendment.
> If you support Border security or terrorist restriction your a Xenophobe ....
> If you dont support Same sex marriage your  Homophobic...
> Don't believe in abortion... your depressing woman's rights
> ...


Wow, that's a shopping list of misguided paranoia...


----------



## Tom 86 (Nov 30, 2021)

Our police here are being trained to use "bolo" things.  They are shot out of a shotgun & it wraps up the perp like a mummy.  That's for people in domestic abuse, it also only works at 25 ft.  But if a perp points a weapon at any police office most likely they are on the ground & the coroner is called. 
  I remember going through the army & also through the police CCP schools here.  They teach you if someone points a gun at you you have 1.2 seconds to decide if you're going to shoot or be shot.


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## Nathan (Nov 30, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> ... if someone points a gun at you you have *1.2 seconds* to decide if you're going to shoot or be shot.


That is too long to wait, you can't depend on the other party to exercise that much forbearance.


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## Mr. Ed (Nov 30, 2021)

I don’t know why you included me as in ‘we’ but to answer your ‘how can we stop killing’? Annihilate every thing once and for all including ourselves, this will stop the killing. There will be no one to pull the trigger when all life forms capable of killing are dead.


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

none


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

nope


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

exwisehe said:


> t


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## David777 (Nov 30, 2021)

I don't own guns nor plan to. 

In a world where overpopulation is accelerating and wealth and wealth seekers control the world, the USA is more fragile than would appear. Consider what has happened during this pandemic and during the 2008 collapse that scared many. If our economic system collapses and chaos follows, one will not be able to count on local police and military to protect individuals from evil doer gangs with weapons.  These are also reasons why so many have armed themselves.


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## Murrmurr (Nov 30, 2021)

@exwisehe - It looks like you're having problems posting. There is a tech forum here where you can ask questions and get answers/solutions. Go down the list of forums to "Forum Support".


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## mellowyellow (Nov 30, 2021)

I blame drugs for much of the violence in the world today which causes some to tip over into mental illness.


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## fuzzybuddy (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm told there is a difference between a killing, and a murder. A killing is when one is determined to be e threat to another's person, family or welfare. It's that a person needs killing. The other is senseless murder, which is a sin. Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the difference between a killing, and a murder. When bombs were dropped on London, in WWII, thousands were "murdered", when bombs fell on Nazi Germany, thousands were "killed". I totally agree with mellowyellow that the vast majority of the crime deaths are due to the drug trade. Again, killing is just business, while murders are not


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## exwisehe (Dec 3, 2021)

tsk


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## rgp (Dec 3, 2021)

IMO ? .......... tougher enforcement of the laws currently in place. 

Again opinion ...... ease up on the drug charges ......... double down on the violence cases.

And make damn sure the street thugs know it if we do.


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## rgp (Dec 3, 2021)

Nathan said:


> That is too long to wait, you can't depend on the other party to exercise that much forbearance.



I agree .... and remember that the next time a police officer shoots a suspect.


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## WheatenLover (Dec 3, 2021)

old medic said:


> It a term used by Folks to negatively describe any one who Owns a legal weapon, Or stands up for the 2nd Amendment.
> If you support Border security or terrorist restriction your a Xenophobe ....
> If you dont support Same sex marriage your  Homophobic...
> Don't believe in abortion... your depressing woman's rights
> ...


To me, a gun nut is someone who owns many, many guns and who spouts off all the freaking time about how he will kill people if X or Y or Z occurs. I have a friend who plans to kill everyone who comes from town into the country to try to steal his food, guns, and ammo. He, meanwhile, has never been stolen from, nothing of his has been broken into, etc. These starving hoards will be here because something really bad is about to happen in this country. Please, give me a break.


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## WheatenLover (Dec 3, 2021)

David777 said:


> I don't own guns nor plan to.
> 
> In a world where overpopulation is accelerating and wealth and wealth seekers control the world, the USA is more fragile than would appear. Consider what has happened during this pandemic and during the 2008 collapse that scared many. If our economic system collapses and chaos follows, one will not be able to count on local police and military to protect individuals from evil doer gangs with weapons.  These are also reasons why so many have armed themselves.


In the main, local police do not protect individuals, anyway. They are not required to.


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## Warrigal (Dec 3, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> I wish somebody would define "gun nut" before they start throwing that term around.  Is anyone who owns a firearm a so-called "gun nut?"  I don't think so.  That's like saying I'm a "can opener nut" because I own one.


If you owned a couple of dozen can openers some might call you a collector and I would probably think you were a can opener nut but I would not think that you are a public menace. 

If you owned a couple of dozen lethal weapons I would probably give you a very wide berth.


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## Pepper (Dec 3, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> If you owned a couple of dozen lethal weapons I would probably give you a very wide berth.


Having lived in Gun States I knew nice, educated people who had arsenals.  U-S-A


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## Warrigal (Dec 3, 2021)

Indulge me. 

I live in Australia where we don't have earthquakes, rabies nor nice educated people who own private arsenals. Just bushfires, floods, snakes, spiders and sharks.


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## Lewkat (Dec 3, 2021)

Someone will always find a means to kill.  Just ask Cain.


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## Nathan (Dec 3, 2021)

rgp said:


> I agree .... and remember that the next time a police officer shoots a suspect.


...and remember this: nobody is disputing a police officer's absolute right to shoot an ARMED suspect.


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## win231 (Dec 3, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I blame drugs for much of the violence in the world today which causes some to tip over into mental illness.


Certainly more than a coincidence.  By the way, I looked up many of these cases & only a few mentioned Rx antidepressants:

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

Neal Furrow in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,
(Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Suffering from depression, singer Del Shannon committed suicide on February 8, 1990, with a .22-caliber rifle at his home in Santa Clarita, California, while on a prescription dose of the anti-depressant drug Prozac.


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## Warrigal (Dec 3, 2021)

And how is it that most of these children/students have access to guns and other lethal weapons.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 3, 2021)

It is hard for me to see a future where mankind will give up killing each other. Weapons have ruled from ages past and booming in our world today. Our generation probably will see the violence and killings increase before we die. The future after that is a total crap shoot. Who could possibly know with so many major problems we have now? Just think of what our grandchildren will face when they are 40 years old. I can't imagine.


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## rgp (Dec 4, 2021)

Nathan said:


> ...and remember this: nobody is disputing a police officer's absolute right to shoot an ARMED suspect.



OK, but I'll amend it to say a believed armed suspect .... in a dark alley an officer does not have the time to determine wether it's a gun or a cell phone ....... in some cases by the time the determination can be made ........ it's too late.


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## David777 (Dec 4, 2021)

Endless increasing overpopulation driven by wealthy and wealth seekers is making killing for a list of reasons a lot worse.


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## Warrigal (Dec 4, 2021)

I prefer to be around nice people who don't own an arsenal of guns.
Sometimes their children are not all that safe to be around.


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## Warrigal (Dec 4, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, but I'll amend it to say a believed armed suspect .... in a dark alley an officer does not have the time to determine wether it's a gun or a cell phone ....... in some cases by the time the determination can be made ........ it's too late.


In at least one case a middle aged woman, in a well lit alley, dressed in her PJs after calling the police because she suspected a woman was being sexually assaulted, ended up shot to death by a nervous police officer, shooting at her through the window of the patrol car, across his partner. Just collateral damage?


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## rgp (Dec 5, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> In at least one case a middle aged woman, in a well lit alley, dressed in her PJs after calling the police because she suspected a woman was being sexually assaulted, ended up shot to death by a nervous police officer, shooting at her through the window of the patrol car, across his partner. Just collateral damage?



 OK, that's one .... and i do remember it. 

 Show me where I said they never make mistakes.

 That officer was an idiot ....IMO.


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## Tom 86 (Dec 5, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> If you owned a couple of dozen can openers some might call you a collector and I would probably think you were a can opener nut but I would not think that you are a public menace.
> 
> If you owned a couple of dozen lethal weapons I would probably give you a very wide berth.


Most of us that have many different guns, are collectors or use them for different kinds of hunting.   If you know a person that has lots of guns, you are safer being a friend to them.  They can protect your life & property.


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## Warrigal (Dec 5, 2021)

I don't live in USA _so t_here is no need to protect my life and property.
The only time I was worried for my safety was when a neighbour called me in to investigate a hissing noise from his compost heap. 

He had a pistol for his work - as the manager of a petrol station he was permitted to carry one for protection when he took the takings to the bank (yes, it was a very long time ago). 

Fearing that the hissing was coming from a snake he wanted to go inside to get the gun but I persuaded him not to. I was more disturbed about the possibility of being accidentally shot by a nervous man than I was of a snake in the grass. As it turned out it was a harmless blue tongue lizard that was hissing because its hibernation had been disturbed. I rescued it and took it home to finish hibernating in our compost heap.


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## oldpop (Dec 5, 2021)

How do we stop killing? I cannot answer that question. It is a vicious circle. As long as there is someone willing to kill me I have to be willing to kill them or be killed. Make no mistake human beings are animals and we progressed out of one type of jungle and into a new jungle we have created for ourselves. Unfortunately in our jungle it is still survival of the fittest. So we have an option to either protect ourselves or be devoured/killed. It seems that our DNA has been programmed this way. Maybe if we learn to change the programming we can stop the killing. If that is the case I wonder what would be the trade off/cost? How do we stop killing? I have no answer to that question....


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## rgp (Dec 5, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> If you owned a couple of dozen can openers some might call you a collector and I would probably think you were a can opener nut but I would not think that you are a public menace.
> 
> If you owned a couple of dozen lethal weapons I would probably give you a very wide berth.



 I had a friend [now deceased] that had quite a collection of guns. All types/periods in history,etc. He just greatly admired the the mechanical design/engineering in them. He never shot an animal, and had no desire to ever shoot a human. His thing was target shooting with the various guns, and honing his skill at it. 

BTW .... He was a hell-of-a-shot. I've seen him hit AAA batteries from ridiculous distances.

Point being, there are all sorts of reasons folks collect guns.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 5, 2021)

oldpop said:


> How do we stop killing? I cannot answer that question. It is a vicious circle. As long as there is someone willing to kill me I have to be willing to kill them or be killed. Make no mistake human beings are animals and we progressed out of one type of jungle and into a new jungle we have created for ourselves. Unfortunately in our jungle it is still survival of the fittest. So we have an option to either protect ourselves or be devoured/killed. It seems that our DNA has been programmed this way. Maybe if we learn to change the programming we can stop the killing. If that is the case I wonder what would be the trade off/cost? How do we stop killing? I have no answer to that question....


  I have seen videos of using techniques to change your own DNA. The best one I will post, if you want to get the best explanation.

DNA Activation and Unlocking Your Superhuman Abilities

These are instructions from a website on how to do the techniques.
_
"Activation of the Youth and Vitality Chromosomes Command Process:
 Part One
_

_Ground and center yourself in your heart and visualize going down in the Mother Earth, which is a part of All That Is._
_Visualize bringing up the energy through your feet, opening up all of your chakras as you go. Go up out of your crown, out to the Universe._
_Go beyond the Universe, past the white lights, past the dark light, past the white light, past the jelly-like substance that is the Laws, into a pearly, iridescent white light, into the Seventh Plane of Existence._
_In silence, make the command, “Creator of All That Is, it is commanded that the activation of the youth and vitality chromosomes (state client’s name)take place on this day. Thank you! It is done. It is done. It is done. Show me the master cell in the pineal gland.”_
_Observe the Virtual DNA Strands stack in pairs on top of each other with a telomere cap at the ends. Sometimes this happens so fast, that you may have to ask the Creator for a replay later._
_As soon as you see that the process is finished, rinse yourself off and put yourself back into your space. Go into the Earth and pull the earth energy up through all your chakras to your crown chakra and make an Energy Break._
_
*Part one of the DNA Activation is now complete.


The Activation (Part Two)*


After the first procedure has been done the person might experience toxins coming out of their system on all Levels, spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically. Since you are making cellular changes in body from the Master Cell the body will begin to purge toxins. Some people may experience a healing cleanse, a period of detoxification and purification. Generally there should be a space of time between the two Activations. Other people are ready for both of them simultaneously. With these people you may do the second step immediately after the first if they are ready to receive it. The way that you can tell if they can immediately receive the second part of the Activation is to stay in the person’s space as the first part is finishing. As you are in their pineal gland, the remaining chromosomes will begin to come to life on their own. If you see the chromosomes begin to come to life, then they are ready for it. You will witness the addition of the ten new strands to the remaining forty four.

Mitochondria
In the second process we are now activating mitochondria as well, which accelerates the process. When you make the command of “It is commanded that the remaining chromosomes be activated,” the mitrochondria of the cell is awakened as well. Mitochondria possess their own genetic material, and the machinery to manufacture their own RNAs and proteins. The 46 chromosomes in the cell nucleus is the blue print, but the mitrochondria holds the energy; the ATP that makes it all function. In cell biology, a mitochondrion (plural mitochondria) is an organelle, variants of which are found in most eukaryotic cells. Mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants," because their primary function is to convert organic materials into energy in the form of ATP. Usually a cell has hundreds or thousands of mitochondria, which can occupy up to 25% of the cell's cytoplasm. Mitochondria have their own DNA and are accepted by endosymbiotic theory to have descended from once free-living bacteria.

Activation of the Remaining Chromosomes
Part Two
 The next step in the process is as follows:
_

_Center yourself in your heart and visualize going down into the Mother Earth, which is a part of All That Is._
_ Visualize bringing up the energy through your feet, opening each chakra to the crown chakra. In a beautiful ball of light, go out to the Universe._
_Go beyond the Universe, past the white lights, past the dark light, past the white light, past the jelly-like substance that is the Laws, into a pearly iridescent white light, into the Seventh Plane of Existence._
_In silence, make the command, “Creator of All That Is, it is commanded that the remaining chromosomes be activated. Thank you! It is done. It is done. It is done. Show me the master cell in the pineal gland.”_
_As soon as you envision the process as finished, rinse yourself off and imagine your energy coming back into your space. Go into the Earth and pull the earth energy up through all your chakras to the crown chakra._
_
Words Become Reality
The one thing I found to be consistent with the Activation is that the likelihood of the spoken word and strong thoughts becoming reality increase dramatically after the Activation is done. Once the Activation begins to take effect, it is important to stay positive and affirm that you have abundance coming into your life. Do not affirm lack in your life, because after the Activation the words and thoughts will be ten times more powerful. Words and thoughts must be focused in the right direction. When you’re working with the energetic DNA, the negative aspects of your life will begin to be replaced with positive aspects.

The Company That You Keep
The Activation brings a person to a higher spiritual vibration. Your family and friends may not be on the same vibrational level. The Activation increases our awareness of the negative influences of others. If you have an associate or friend that is not for your highest and best good you will easily and gently gravitate away from them. If you are in a unhappy relationship, you either will remove yourself from the relationship, or make it better.
Once the Activation is done within yourself, it should also be done on your spouse, because your dual spiritual vibration needs to accelerate together or you may choose to be apart. It is possible that the Activation will happen by sleeping with your spouse. This is because cell talks to cell, but you must be patient as this will take several months. Most people experience a slight cleansing with cold-like symptoms after the DNA Activation and some people ache all over. I suggest as a remedy that they take a little calcium and perhaps a little chelated zinc.

The Complete Process Step by Step
Activation of the Youth and Vitality Chromosomes Command Process,
 Part One:
_

_Ground and center yourself in your heart and visualize going down in the Mother Earth, which is a part of All That Is._
_Visualize bringing up the energy through your feet, opening up all of your chakras as you go. Go up out of your crown, out to the Universe._
_Go beyond the Universe, past the white lights, past the dark light, past the white light, past the jelly-like substance that is the Laws, into a pearly, iridescent white light, into the Seventh Plane of Existence. 4. In silence, make the command, “Creator of All That Is, it is commanded that the activation of the youth and vitality chromosomes (state client’s name)take place on this day. Thank you! It is done. It is done. It is done. Show me the master cell in the pineal gland.”_
_Observe the Virtual DNA Strands stack in pairs on top of each other with a telomere cap at the ends. Sometimes this happens so fast, that you may have to ask the Creator for a replay later._
_As soon as you see that the process is finished, rinse yourself off and put yourself back into your space. Go into the Earth and pull the earth energy up through all your chakras to your crown chakra and make an Energy Break._
_
Part one of the DNA Activation is now complete.

Activation of the Remaining Chromosomes Part Two:
 The next step in the process is as follows:
_

_Ask the Creator if the client is ready for activation of their remaining chromosomes. If the answer is “No”, exit and rinse off. If the answer is “Yes”, activate them with the second process._
_Center yourself in your heart and visualize going down into the Mother Earth, which is a part of All That Is_
_Visualize bringing up the energy through your feet, opening each chakra to the crown chakra. In a beautiful ball of light, go out to the Universe._
_Go beyond the Universe, past the white lights, past the dark light, past the white light, past the jelly-like substance that is the Laws, into a pearly iridescent white light, into the Seventh Plane of Existence._
_In silence, make the command, “Creator of All That Is, it is commanded that the remaining chromosomes be activated. Thank you! It is done. It is done. It is done. Show me the master cell in the pineal gland.”_
_As soon as you envision the process as finished, rinse yourself off and imagine your energy coming back into your space. Go into the Earth and pull the earth energy up through all your chakras to the crown chakra._
_
This will activate all DNA, including the mitochondria._"

That might all sound like a bunch of nonsense, but we have been praying to the unknown for millions of years. Maybe this IS a revolutionary form of prayer to the universe.?


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## oldpop (Dec 5, 2021)

> Paco Dennis

Thank you kindly for posting. It looks very interesting. I will definitely check it out.


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## AnnieA (Dec 5, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> That may sound like a bunch of nonsense, but we have been praying to the unknown for millions of years. Maybe this IS a revolutionary form of prayer to the universe.?



Sounds similar to other forms of guided imagery...just adds current scientific terms.

It's easy to sequence and analyze DNA to prove or disprove a proposed method to alter it.


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## Tom 86 (Dec 5, 2021)

People have been killing ever since Christ walked on this earth, they took his life.  Look at Ceaser & his army taking over many lands. A lot of different wars. So there is no good reason for this to ever end. 

  Just saw on this morning's news where Russia is about to invade Ukraine.  Our President is getting 175,000 troops ready to go to Ukraine.  Makes lots of money for the rich.


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## rgp (Dec 5, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> People have been killing ever since Christ walked on this earth, they took his life.  Look at Ceaser & his army taking over many lands. A lot of different wars. So there is no good reason for this to ever end.
> 
> Just saw on this morning's news where Russia is about to invade Ukraine.  Our President is getting 175,000 troops ready to go to Ukraine.  Makes lots of money for the rich.



 "Makes lots of money for the rich."

 Man, ain't that the truth !!


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## AnnieA (Dec 5, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> People have been killing ever since Christ walked on this earth...


Pretty sure it started way before!


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## oldpop (Dec 5, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Sounds similar to other forms of meditation,  guided imagery...just adds current scientific terms.
> 
> It's easy to sequence and analyze DNA to prove or disprove a proposed method to alter it.


Interesting nonetheless.


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

David777 said:


> Endless increasing overpopulation driven by wealthy and wealth seekers is making killing for a list of reasons a lot worse.



Since 1970. the U.S. population has increased from about 203 million to about 330 million.  In 1970, there were about 16,000 murders.  

In 2019 (the last year for which full statistics are available) there were about 16,000 murders.  So the number of murders stayed the same, despite the population increasing by more than 60%.  And that's also despite the proliferation of lethal semi-automatic firearms, the rise of gang culture and many other factors.  

So I would have to say your theory doesn't hold much water, at least in the U.S.    

https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Since 1970. the U.S. population has increased from about 203 million to about 330 million.  In 1970, there were about 16,000 murders.
> 
> In 2019 (the last year for which full statistics are available) there were about 16,000 murders.  So the number of murders stayed the same, despite the population increasing by more than 60%.  And that's also despite the proliferation of lethal semi-automatic firearms, the rise of gang culture and many other factors.
> 
> ...





rgp said:


> I had a friend [now deceased] that had quite a collection of guns. All types/periods in history,etc. He just greatly admired the the mechanical design/engineering in them. He never shot an animal, and had no desire to ever shoot a human. His thing was target shooting with the various guns, and honing his skill at it.
> 
> BTW.... He was a hell-of-a-shot. I've seen him hit AAA batteries from ridiculous distances.
> 
> Point being, there are all sorts of reasons folks collect guns.




Once in a while a "gun nut" goes off the rails and engages in a mass shooting.  This results in a lot of hand-wringing, discussion of the Second Amendment, vitriol about the evils of MAGA type white people, etc.  

Meanwhile thousands of people slay each other each year, usually with handguns that are either bought illegally and/or stolen.  Over half of these people are black men, despite black men only representing about 6 percent of the total population.  

I don't own any guns and see no reason why people should be allowed to own semi-automatic weapons of any sort. (It's a lot harder to kill people with a bolt-action rifle or a revolver than with an AR-15 or a Glock.)  But murder in the US is a much more complicated problem than a bunch of "gun nuts" collecting weaponry.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 5, 2021)

@JimBob1952 True, and statistics never lie. But, there are many contributing factors to the decrease in murders. They involve factors of laws, mobility, gentrification, private for profit prisons, and the list could go on and on. 16,000 murders is OK? No it is not, and a culture that thinks it is just something else we have to fear all the time, like crossing the street, needs to think again.


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> @JimBob1952 True, and statistics never lie. But, there are many contributing factors to the decrease in murders. They involve factors of laws, mobility, gentrification, private for profit prisons, and the list could go on and on. 16,000 murders is OK? No it is not, and a culture that thinks it is just something else we have to fear all the time, like crossing the street, needs to think again.




Of course it's not OK.  It's outrageous.  But it has nothing to do with overpopulation, or private prisons, or gentrification.


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

Private prisons handle about 8% of the federal and state prison population.  That percentage has been declining.  And private prisons usually handle facilities like halfway houses or immigration centers.  Not sure what that has to do with murder rates.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 5, 2021)

Here is an article that explores the reasons for the decrease if your interested

What Caused the Great Crime Decline in the U.S.?​https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/what-caused-the-crime-decline/477408/


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 5, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> Here is an article that explores the reasons for the decrease if your interested
> 
> What Caused the Great Crime Decline in the U.S.?​https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/what-caused-the-crime-decline/477408/



Thank you.


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## Warrigal (Dec 5, 2021)

rgp said:


> I had a friend [now deceased] that had quite a collection of guns. All types/periods in history,etc. He just greatly admired the the mechanical design/engineering in them. He never shot an animal, and had no desire to ever shoot a human. His thing was target shooting with the various guns, and honing his skill at it.
> 
> BTW .... He was a hell-of-a-shot. I've seen him hit AAA batteries from ridiculous distances.
> 
> Point being, there are all sorts of reasons folks collect guns.


Point being, not all of the reasons are good.


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## Warrigal (Dec 5, 2021)

rgp said:


> OK, that's one .... and i do remember it.
> 
> Show me where I said they never make mistakes.
> 
> That officer was an idiot ....IMO.


No, not an idiot.

 He was afraid of being shot by an armed civilian. There way too many guns in civilian hands, even in the hands of white middle aged women. Every time the police respond to a call, or answer a DV report, they don't know what they are going to meet when they arrive. No wonder they become trigger happy.


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## Alice November (Dec 5, 2021)

I guess if street drugs don't kill them prescribed drugs will in the USA and France from what I can see.
Here inFrance the highest killings are wives and husbands or cohab partners murdering each other, usually motivated by infidelity. There is more knife crime here than guns. In our nearest town square there are two knife shops, window display full of them and these aren't kitchen knives, any of them. Who needs TWO killing knife shops on one block?

Knives or guns, if the nutters gonna kill, they do!


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## Warrigal (Dec 5, 2021)

The worst situation we have over here is domestic violence and women being murdered at the hands of current or past partners. The weapon is not the issue. Often they are bludgeoned to death. The rate is fairly consistent, averaging one or more per week each year. This year the count is 41 dead women by December 06.

Details of each death can be accessed here Counting Dead Women Australia | Facebook

Here are some examples -



> November 30: At about 5pm on Saturday November 27th police were called to an apartment in Southport, Queensland, after reports of a disturbance.  Mary Benedito (25) was found unresponsive inside the apartment and was transported to ICU with critical injuries.  Her 11-month-old son was found to be missing.  On Sunday Reo Te Whetu Marama Marsh (34), ex-partner of Ms Benedito and father of the abducted child, was arrested and ‘associates’ of Marsh handed the child over to authorities, physically unharmed. On Monday Marsh was charged with one count of grievous bodily harm and one of strangulation, and was remanded in custody.  Overnight, on November 30th, Ms Benedito died in hospital despite best efforts of staff.  Police have today upgraded Marsh's charge to murder.  https://tinyurl.com/47a3vpcb   QLD
> 
> November 17:  At about 1.50pm police were called to a home in Deniliquin. There they found a 42-year-old woman, as yet unnamed, who had sustained significant head injuries before allegedly being set on fire.  Police and emergency responders attempted to extinguish the fire and to render treatment.  Despite all efforts the woman died at the scene.  Her brother (31) was arrested in the front yard of the home, charged with murder (DV) and remanded in custody.  No further information is available at present.  https://tinyurl.com/56439vbh  NSW
> 
> July 28:  On Monday July 26 Cherry Gerente Ogar (37) was treated by paramedics for life threatening head injuries at her home in Port Hughes, and transferred to the Wallaroo Hospital.  Police were called at this time and arrested her husband, Antony Ogar (58), charging him with assault causing serious harm, Ms Cerente Ogar’s daughter giving evidence of daily assaults against her mother. Ms Cerente Ogar was transferred to the Royal Adelaide Hospital, where she died of her injuries two days later.  Mr Ogar’s charge is now expected to be upgraded to murder.  Nothing further is known at present. https://tinyurl.com/vvyr7ebu SA


Is anyone counting dead women in US to see how many of them are killed by members of their household using legal weapons?


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## mellowyellow (Dec 5, 2021)

US congressman Thomas Harold Massie has faced a barrage of criticism after he posted a Christmas photograph of his family posing with military-style rifles, just days after a deadly school shooting.

Thomas Harold Massie is an American Republican Party politician.


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## oldpop (Dec 6, 2021)

Wow, looks like they are well prepared for just about anything.


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## Shero (Dec 6, 2021)

How do we stop killing?  I was going to say it starts at home, teach the children right. But that is not so easy these days when parents buy their 15 year old a gun for Christmas (as in the recent school shooting). 

So now I feel we have to start with the parents make them responsible for the actions of their children, a tall order, but anything is better than doing nothing.-


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## rgp (Dec 6, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Point being, not all of the reasons are good.



I never said they were.

But in the end, don't even think about trying to unarm the U.S.A.


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## rgp (Dec 6, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> No, not an idiot.
> 
> He was afraid of being shot by an armed civilian. There way too many guns in civilian hands, even in the hands of white middle aged women. Every time the police respond to a call, or answer a DV report, they don't know what they are going to meet when they arrive. No wonder they become trigger happy.



 Sorry ...... He was an idiot.

 "There way too many guns in civilian hands,"

You run your railroad & we'll run ours.

The best defence against a bad person with a gun .......... is a good person with a gun. If we confiscated guns from the only people that might comply , the only people left with guns .... will be the bad people.


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## oldpop (Dec 6, 2021)

rgp said:


> But in the end, don't even think about trying to unarm the U.S.A.


That would be a next to impossible and they would never get them all.


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## Warrigal (Dec 6, 2021)

rgp said:


> I never said they were.
> 
> But in the end, don't even think about trying to unarm the U.S.A.


Not my problem. I'm a spectator, not a voter.


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## David777 (Dec 6, 2021)

Actually your statistic is dated and history shows varies yearly and is flawed to some extent due to the way crime statistics were poorly or differently processed during early decades in many states. Stats show 21,570 homicides last year. In any case, it is true rates in the USA have not increased merely due to population increases but then my statement was not meant to reflect that and is more a worldwide behavioral statement.  

There are many factors affecting crime including murder rates, for instance rate's rise during economic downturns and social unrest, and falls during better times  as the USA graph on this link shows.  The influence of telecommunication media especially the Internet has had a far greater influence on awareness of all manner of ethical and moral issues.  Murders today become national news that will tend to reduce bad behaviors whereas decades ago media might have only taken notice if it was in our largest cities.  Today such becomes a self accelerating phenomenon on social media.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...ow-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 6, 2021)

David777 said:


> Actually your statistic is dated and history shows varies yearly and is flawed to some extent due to the way crime statistics were poorly or differently processed during early decades in many states. Stats show 21,570 homicides last year. In any case, it is true rates in the USA have not increased merely due to population increases but then my statement was not meant to reflect that and is more a worldwide behavioral statement.
> 
> There are many factors affecting crime including murder rates, for instance rate's rise during economic downturns and social unrest, and falls during better times  as the USA graph on this link shows.  The influence of telecommunication media especially the Internet has had a far greater influence on awareness of all manner of ethical and moral issues.  Murders today become national news that will tend to reduce bad behaviors whereas decades ago media might have only taken notice if it was in our largest cities.  Today such becomes a self accelerating phenomenon on social media.
> 
> https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...ow-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/



Yes, 2020 was a weird year because of the pandemic and the George Floyd riots.  I'm still not sure what your point is.  Overpopulation is a problem for poor countries, largely because people with insecure incomes and no wealth need lots of children to support them as they get older.  As countries get richer their birth rates drop.  In the US, Japan, and Western Europe, birth rates are below replacement levels, resulting in an aging (and less crime prone) population.


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## Tom 86 (Dec 6, 2021)

If there had been retired police or military carrying AR-14 with several 30 round clips in Nordstrom store Then lock the doors had a safe cubby hole for cashiers to get in under their registers.  Then hunt down the thieves.    A few of these actions would stop this kind of Grab & run.

  There have been many reports on our local news where a man/woman with concealed weapon & CCP  was in a store that was getting robbed.  They shot the robbers, so they could not rob anyone or place again.   The police said thank you as we can't be everywhere.  These people are never prosecuted.


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## Warrigal (Dec 6, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 197629
> US congressman Thomas Harold Massie has faced a barrage of criticism after he posted a Christmas photograph of his family posing with military-style rifles, just days after a deadly school shooting.
> 
> Thomas Harold Massie is an American Republican Party politician.


So, if Dad goes ballistic and starts beating up Mom, the kids can drop him in his tracks?


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## oldpop (Dec 6, 2021)

This seems to be getting off topic a little. Guns are only one means to an end.  Good or bad depending on how you look at it.  According to Peter Suciu of 19fortyfive.com (4/11/21) there are an estimated 470,000,000 guns in America and that number is growing as we speak. If we are trying to decrease or end killing we should be addressing the mental health issues we have facing us here in U.S. This would probably yield better results than the daunting task of trying to limit or remove every gun from the multitude of gun owners in this country whom the majority of are people who respect and abide by the law.

We have good and effective gun laws on the books now they just need to be enforced properly. More bureaucracy and laws will not stop people from killing each other. Addressing mental health issues covers much more ground than trying to eradicate the multitude of tools used by people to kill one another. Something as simple as words can be a tool for killing. I am not trying to change anyone's mind . I am just offering another way to look at it. Take it or leave it...


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## dseag2 (Dec 6, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> The worst situation we have over here is domestic violence and women being murdered at the hands of current or past partners. The weapon is not the issue. Often they are bludgeoned to death. The rate is fairly consistent, averaging one or more per week each year. This year the count is 41 dead women by December 06.
> 
> Details of each death can be accessed here Counting Dead Women Australia | Facebook
> 
> ...


Spot on.  My partner works at a non-profit organization that exists to assist victims of domestic violence.  It has always been an issue in the US but became worse during the Covid lockdowns.  Very often, they don't want to leave due to the children involved.  It is horrible.


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## dseag2 (Dec 6, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 197629
> US congressman Thomas Harold Massie has faced a barrage of criticism after he posted a Christmas photograph of his family posing with military-style rifles, just days after a deadly school shooting.
> 
> Thomas Harold Massie is an American Republican Party politician.


A**hole.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 6, 2021)




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## Alice November (Dec 7, 2021)

oldpop said:


> This seems to be getting off topic a little. Guns are only one means to an end.  Good or bad depending on how you look at it.  According to Peter Suciu of 19fortyfive.com (4/11/21) there are an estimated 470,000,000 guns in America and that number is growing as we speak. If we are trying to decrease or end killing we should be addressing the mental health issues we have facing us here in U.S. This would probably yield better results than the daunting task of trying to limit or remove every gun from the multitude of gun owners in this country whom the majority of are people who respect and abide by the law.
> 
> We have good and effective gun laws on the books now they just need to be enforced properly. More bureaucracy and laws will not stop people from killing each other. Addressing mental health issues covers much more ground than trying to eradicate the multitude of tools used by people to kill one another. Something as simple as words can be a tool for killing. I am not trying to change anyone's mind . I am just offering another way to look at it. Take it or leave it...


Also get rid of street drugs and stop over medicating with pharmeceutical drug perscriptions.


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## Ruthanne (Dec 7, 2021)

old medic said:


> Well God killed everything but pairs and one family to rid the world of Evil.... That had to include alot of INNOCENT children.
> Guess hes the original Re-Booter...
> Islam basically tells you to KILL any non believers that dont convert...
> Look at what good Christians did to the Natives here in the Americas...
> ...


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## Ruthanne (Dec 7, 2021)

old medic said:


> Well God killed everything but pairs and one family to rid the world of Evil.... That had to include alot of INNOCENT children.
> Guess hes the original Re-Booter...
> Islam basically tells you to KILL any non believers that dont convert...
> Look at what good Christians did to the Natives here in the Americas...
> ...





old medic said:


> Well God killed everything but pairs and one family to rid the world of Evil.... That had to include alot of INNOCENT children.


I don't know that for sure!!  You are making a huge assumption!!  Think again!!


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## Ruthanne (Dec 7, 2021)

Pecos said:


> Ruthanne
> 
> "From my Catholic upbringing I have always believed that killing was wrong, very wrong.  Yet, It happens all the time.  I realize sometimes people have to be stopped from killing at many expenses..but isn't there a better way to stop it?  I have seen that many other ways have sometimes been used like rubber bullets and so forth..what's your answer to this?"
> 
> ...


Thank you @Pecos    I have not addressed this thread in a long time.  Your response makes much sense.


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## Alice November (Dec 7, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> Spot on.  My partner works at a non-profit organization that exists to assist victims of domestic violence.  It has always been an issue in the US but became worse during the Covid lockdowns.  Very often, they don't want to leave due to the children involved.  It is horrible.


Many of these situations are caused by alcoholism and drug addiction. I'm meaning both street/illegal drugs, as well as the so called 'party drugs', and the prescribed pharmacy purchased drugs prescribed by physicians. We need to clean up our act in this regard --  it's a world wide problem.

Drug use is really bad in France. Party drugs are widely used here and I have heard from some UK residents that the French love their little pills. So when I feel like I am dealing with mostly 'stoned' people then its no wonder they are causing problems with each other and having beakdowns in relationships of all kinds.


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## Ruthanne (Dec 7, 2021)

Knight said:


> I think the Op realizes that killing is situational, pointing out rubber bullets as one option.
> 
> 
> But since there are so many situations maybe the OP can put herself in this situation.
> ...


I see what you said.  That is a made up story you said.  I think you were trying to put me on the spot--so go forth,


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## Shero (Dec 7, 2021)

We have to be careful when we reprimand other countries for having guns, no one is unblemished.

No arsenals in Australia?  This is just one of them reported.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ice-huge-weapons-cache-haul-wooden-chest.html

Australia has its gun toting politicians too

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03...s-well-organised-as-nra-report-finds/10940384


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## Warrigal (Dec 7, 2021)

Bike gangs have long been involved in smuggling illegal weapons into Australia and are linked to criminal activities. It is also true that we have an active gun lobby but the majority of the population are happy with current legislation.

To make it clear to everyone - gun ownership is not banned in Australia but it is well regulated and each firearm must be licenced by the owner.


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## Geezer Garage (Dec 7, 2021)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country Interesting, when you look at the figures. We still seem to think it's the wild, wild west, and apparently it is. Pretty disheartening when you look at Canada, and then at us right next door. It seems very few of those itchy trigger fingers out there have ever seen violent death, or war. Once you have, any enticement it may have had very quickly fades. A close look at the figures in the chart show many of the countries with the worst records, including are own, are steeped in machismo. There is nothing manly in killing. Yet 90% of it is done by men. There are many things that could help, more social, and mental health workers to deal with situations that the police are not trained to deal with, should be at the top of the list, along with a totally new approach to policing in general. Police departments across the country, pay out millions of dollars in wrongful death cases every year. Wouldn't putting that money toward alternatives be so much more useful? Social evolution is a painfully slow process as it is, and it seems that social media is not doing much to help in that area. Very difficult to get much accomplished in a country so divided, but all the more reason to keep on trying. Mike


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 7, 2021)

Alice November said:


> Also get rid of street drugs and stop over medicating with pharmeceutical drug perscriptions.


I don't think you can stop "street drugs". In some form they will raise their head. But, we SHOULD go after the Pharma industry for the harmful med prescriptions.


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## Alice November (Dec 7, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> I don't think you can stop "street drugs". In some form they will raise their head. But, we SHOULD go after the Pharma industry for the harmful med prescriptions.


I think we can do both. I maintain street drugs should be attacked at source and production levels, not after they are docked, delivered and pushed.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 7, 2021)

Even if we could stop homemade drugs, or illegal street drugs ( which I still think is impossible ), it isn't going stop us from killing each other anytime soon. As everything collapses around us, people are going to get more violent. So I expect there to be a big rise in deaths due to many "ways". The protracted mess we are making of the pandemic, immigration problems, inequality GAP, and gun proliferation.


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## Pepper (Dec 7, 2021)

I don't see any real evidence life in the western world is collapsing.  IMO, it's a perception not based on anything but fear and exhaustion.


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 7, 2021)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/04/magazine/societal-collapse.html

https://www.ecowatch.com/human-society-collapse-deforestation-2646869167.html

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190218-are-we-on-the-road-to-civilisation-collapse

https://hackaday.com/2021/07/26/if-society-is-in-danger-of-collapse-heres-how-we-should-do-our-bit/


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I don't see any real evidence life in the western world is collapsing.  IMO, it's a perception not based on anything but *fear and exhaustion*.



For you maybe, but not for me. It is paying attention to the escalating rifts between us vs. them. It is heating up, not cooling down.


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## Pepper (Dec 7, 2021)

Paco Dennis said:


> For you maybe, but not for me. It is paying attention to the escalating rifts between us vs. them. It is heating up, not cooling down.


What's the time frame, in your opinion Paco?


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## Paco Dennis (Dec 7, 2021)

I have no idea. Sometimes I feel like a tiny spark could set off a civil war, other times I can feel our culture/society melting away like the ice bergs in the Arctic....slowly and then a big/massive chunk falls in to the ocean.  That is why I think it important not to feel bad that a huge metamorphosis is required. We should all quit hiding from it, and begin participating in stopping it's acceleration.


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## Pepper (Dec 7, 2021)

IOW, @Paco Dennis, probably not anytime soon?  My grandson is 3.5.  I want him to live & grow and explore and have his own grandkids one day.  I'm optimistic he will have that opportunity.  I know I'm not in charge.


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## JimBob1952 (Dec 7, 2021)

Pardon my skepticism.  Climate change is a big worry.  But we all lived through the Cold War, when we were at each others' throats with nuclear weapons backing up our threats.   And what is "collapse?"  The collapse of the old USSR and Soviet bloc was a good thing. (The rise of Putin, not so good).  

In the 70s, we had hyperinflation, stagnation, Communist expansion, oil shocks and many other terrible issues.  

In the 80s, it was AIDS, nuclear fears, and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism

The beat goes on.


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