# Church Attendance Way Down



## debodun (Oct 13, 2019)

When I first started going to the local fellowship church a few years ago, it was SRO there. The last few months, though, the first two rows of seats are hardly filled (that's around 20 people). I though at first maybe because of summer people were away on vacation and other summer activities, but each week fewer and fewer attend. The pastor has even remarked about it during the service. It seems to me it is really eating at him since he needs the collection money to build a real church building. Currently we are holding services in a rented venue.


----------



## moviequeen1 (Oct 13, 2019)

In many churches around the country that seems to be the big problem,membership has been declining over the years.
When I first joined my church in 1994{ located right here in the city,}, membership was close to 1,000,those days are gone.Over the yrs, our members have died,left or moved away, at the moment I think its  around 400. The only time the pews are packed are at Christmas&Easter or if a well beloved member has died. Its just the way it is


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 13, 2019)

We have a couple of modern megachurches in this area that are thriving but many of the smaller churches are struggling to survive or closing their doors and selling their buildings for various types of development.

I don't know anything about your particular church but it seems to me that the main focus of the pastor should be the members and not fundraising for a building.


----------



## debodun (Oct 13, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't know anything about your particular church but it seems to me that the main focus of the pastor should be the members and not fundraising for a building.



I feel the same way. Perhaps people have stopped attending because they do not want to be brow-beaten every week about giving for funding the church building project. This pastor is obsessed with this dream of a church building. Ever see the movie "The Bishop's Wife"?


----------



## 911 (Oct 13, 2019)

Our church has no attendance problem. I go on Saturday evenings, if I can, just to avoid the Sunday morning crowd.

I have heard from others that their church is having attendance problems. The world is a changing place, that’s for sure.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 13, 2019)

debodun said:


> "The Bishop;'s Wife"?



I watch it every year during the Christmas holidays. it's one of my favorites.


----------



## 911 (Oct 13, 2019)

debodun said:


> I feel the same way. Perhaps people have stopped attending because they do not want to be brow-beaten every week about giving for funding the church building project. This pastor is obsessed with this dream of a church building. Ever see the movie "The Bishop;'s Wife"?


Just curious. Is your Pastor ordained? Did he study Theology and obtain a degree? Some Pastors call themself a Pastor, but really never went through the certification process to become an ordained minister or Pastor. 

We had a fellow here in my county that opened his own church, but never even attended a college to study theology. He definitely knew the Bible and could preach like any other, but was never ordained, which no one has to be in order to preach. His problem was with the IRS. Need I say more?


----------



## Olivia (Oct 13, 2019)

debodun said:


> I feel the same way. Perhaps people have stopped attending because they do not want to be brow-beaten every week about giving for funding the church building project. This pastor is obsessed with this dream of a church building. Ever see the movie "The Bishop;'s Wife"?



First off, I am not a church attendee except for about a year when I was about 14 years old and went with my neighbor in Georgia with her to her church. I don't think that the collection plate for the Sunday services are really what attending there is really all about. The main way is with members tithing a certain percentage of their income every month. Tithing, not the collection plate, is mainly what it's all about. They need members for that reason, not just attendees. But. of course, the collection plate does help.


----------



## Marie5656 (Oct 13, 2019)

*I have been back and forth about church attendance. For many years, in my late teens and early adult life, I just did not go.  
About 15 years ago, I did find a small church, and started to attend. Went for several years. It was a small, close knot congregation.  Then, about 6 years after I joined, the Pastor announced he and his family were moving out of state and another Pastor would take over.  I really did not connect well with the new Pastor, and chose to leave.
I found another church, and went for a while.
But for the past several years, I have not been attending.  Have wanted to, but never found one I bonded with.*


----------



## Sunny (Oct 13, 2019)

Lots of things have changed for the younger generation. Probably fewer of them go to church, once they have reached adulthood. There are a lot of other things they don't do, also, that were nearly "sacred" to my generation, such as reading the newspaper. I get the feeling that if it isn't on electronic media, they aren't interessted. Church is probably part of the same phenomena.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 14, 2019)

I tend to joke that the last time I was in church, they called me names and threw water over me   No quite true.  My parents were Presbyterian and dragged us protesting kids to the kirk every Sunday.  Then we got kicked out to Bible class, where we would ague with the 'teachers' .  No wonder when you have all this stuff and nonsense rammed into you that you question  not only the value of going to church, but the truth of religion.

It's the same nearly everywhere.  When I lived in England, it was normal for one vicar to serve up to four churches which took it in turn to host a Sunday service.  Churches are being sold off and converted into apartments, restaurants etc..  The one in this village used to be an Auction house, but now it's abandoned and crumbling away.

A current  trend here in Scotland is the move to Humanism, with Humanist weddings (as opposed to civil), Naming ceremonies (as opposed to christenings - none of my children were baptised) and funerals. These outnumber the combined religious ceremonies of the major churches.

Maybe church buildings will simply become  memorials to a past way of life.


----------



## Mike (Oct 14, 2019)

I am friendly with a couple who are in the church, I am
not sure which one, he is a minister/priest and his wife
helps him, they share a building with another different
church!

Things are so bad with very few attendees, that they and
the other people who hold services there are thinking to
join together their respective congregations.

I doubt that an arrangement like that won't last too long.

Mike.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

For me the decline in both church membership and attendance is a good thing.

The less religion we have in this world the better off we will be.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

I think that the "Self Realization" religions are trending right now in America although they've been around a long time in other countries, especially Asia. Self awareness, journey to Self Discovery, becoming your "Authentic You", Meditating on your Inner Self, use of crystals to be cleansed, are all appealing phrases and practices for many these days. 

Many now don't want to walk into a biblical church and be told that there is the reality of sin nature in all of us for which we can be saved. That sounds too negative, too real, too raw, too ugly. They don't realize the joy that comes from being saved from the ugly truth of sin. And the freedom of turning that burden over to a Savior. 

Bible believing churches focus on reaching out to others, that their bodies are the temple of the Lord and therefore we should take care of it...but not dwell inward or focus on it too much in a self-centered way.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 14, 2019)

George Carlin was priceless... I still miss him!  Bill Maher is another genius with similar opinions on the subject.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Popular now and growing are biblical churches held in big auditoriums with the lights dimmed and music delivered by bands rather than choirs (although they have some lively choirs on rare occasions too). Large screen TV's flank both sides of the stage with words to the songs, scripture verses that follow the sermon, and a close-up of the pastor as he preaches in case you're too far in the back or you can't see around all the people. Dress is casual...very...jeans and a t-shirt works fine.

I have attended these churches and like them except that the parking wasn't enough and had to park a couple miles away and take a shuttle to get there. Then if you aren't early enough the auditorium is full and you have to go to an overflow room and watch it on a TV screen. 

I'd rather stay home and watch Dr. Stanley's "In Touch" on my TV or online. No, he's not a typical televangelist. But I'm still looking for a smaller church to attend.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Sunny said:


> George Carlin was priceless... I still miss him!  Bill Maher is another genius with similar opinions on the subject.



I love Carlin. 

But I can't stand Maher.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

People IMO are by&large smarter / more educated today, than in the past. And , likely less naive , as such less likely to believe , or need to believe stories, and use these stories as a crutch to prop up their lives. They do not need the guide for their own life. 

Add to this all the unnecessary death, natural devastation & such that we see everyday , and their "faith" is strongly tested.....doubted.

And the biggie IMO, is the now global,... priest scandal Start messing with folks children,...and keeping those folks on your side, in your "fold" is not going to happen.

I personally know two guys & their wives that were devout Catholics . Both of them just completely walked away from the church/religion because of the aforementioned. 

My mother suggested religion/church in my youth, but never was 'over-the-top' about it. I tried, but it just never took hold with me. My feeling has always been,....Considering all the religions that there are, they can't all be right , therefore, IMO they're all wrong, and just selling their agenda. 

I think the beginning of the end [of religion] with me was,  when a innocent little six year old girl [neighbor] was diagnosed with leukemia , and died shortly after. I asked my mother why, she said of course that she did not know, I remember asking something in the direction of why God would do this, again she did not know.....that was when I started doubting, having a hard time believing ......I was about eleven at the time.

Last time I was in church was at my friends wedding ..........that was 40+ years ago.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> People IMO are by&large smarter / more educated today, than in the past. And , likely less naive , as such less likely to believe , or need to believe stories, and use these stories as a crutch to prop up their lives.



I agree with you.

Damn!

I hate that!


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> I personally know two guys & their wives that were devout Catholics . Both of them just completely walked away from the church/religion because of the [priest scandal]...I think the beginning of the end [of religion] with me was,  when a innocent little six year old girl [neighbor] was diagnosed with leukemia , and died shortly after. I asked my mother why, she said of course that she did not know.....that was when I started doubting, having a hard time believing ......I was about eleven at the time.


I agree with you regarding the Catholic Church. I'm not Catholic nor do I attend any church right now but I can still be a Bible believer, a Christian, and not belong to any particular denomination, nor agree with their doctrine, nor attend church. God is watching the Catholic Church...and you'd best believe He's not pleased. He's also watching you and me and everyone and all churches.

Why God allowed a young girl to die of Leukemia and other good people to suffer is a sticking point for many. But here's the thing. Regarding death, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. The world is full of sin. To take that little girl out of this sinful world and bring her Home is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond.

There are over a hundred different reasons listed in the Bible as to why good people suffer. I shared in the thread "Are There Angels" as to why I am grateful for the pain and suffering I went through beginning 3 months ago. And why God allowed my accident to happen. It's nothing compared to some people but it's the most suffering I've ever experienced in my life.  He humbled me, so He could get my attention and so He could show me His presence. He still is showing me, teaching me, and showing me His love. I've never experienced anything like it.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Damn!
> 
> I hate that!




  You'll get over it.....


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> I agree with you regarding the Catholic Church. I'm not Catholic nor do I attend any church right now but I can still be a Bible believer, a Christian, and not belong to any particular denomination, nor agree with their doctrine, nor attend church. God is watching the Catholic Church...and you'd best believe He's not pleased. He's also watching you and me and everyone and all churches.
> 
> Why God allowed a young girl to die of Leukemia and other good people to suffer is a sticking point for many. But here's the thing. Regarding death, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. The world is full of sin. To take that little girl out of this sinful world and bring her Home is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond.
> 
> There are over a hundred different reasons listed in the Bible as to why good people suffer. I shared in the thread "Are There Angels" as to why I am grateful for the pain and suffering I went through beginning 3 months ago. And why God allowed my accident to happen. It's nothing compared to some people but it's the most suffering I've ever experienced in my life.  He humbled me, so He could get my attention and so He could show me His presence. He still is showing me, teaching me, and showing me His love. I've never experienced anything like it.




  "Why God allowed a young girl to die of Leukemia and other good people to suffer is a sticking point for many. But here's the thing. Regarding death, God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. The world is full of sin. To take that little girl out of this sinful world and bring her Home is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond. "

 OK then, why are we born to this life at all ? If we are truly "his children" and he wants the best for us.......why not just keep us all "home" in the first place? Why does he not just make us all behave ? Stop killing each other, stop all war, end all weather disasters ,etc?

 We're just on opposite ends, and i just respectfully disagree.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

Evocative questions rgp.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> OK then, why are we born to this life at all ? If we are truly "his children" and he wants the best for us.......why not just keep us all "home" in the first place? Why does he not just make us all behave ? Stop killing each other, stop all war, end all weather disasters ,etc? We're just on opposite ends, and i just respectfully disagree.


All good questions rgp. God did not want to create Robots. He wanted us to choose on our own to Love and Obey Him just as an earthly father wants from his children. He wanted us to have a relationship with Him. So he created us to make our own choices between Good and Evil (devil and temptation).

Unfortunately, man chose the devil's tempting offer to eat from the tree of knowledge which God said not to. Thus the Old Testament is riddled with sinful atrocities and God's harsh discipline as He tried to get mankind to choose Good over Evil...to love and obey Him. Yes, God could have just made Man to be be good but that would just make them robots. He finally, in the New Testament, instead of punishment He offered forgiveness to all who believe along with teachings of love and obedience...also kindness, patience, joy, faithfulness, gratitude, and peace


----------



## debodun (Oct 14, 2019)

911 said:


> Just curious. Is your Pastor ordained? Did he study Theology and obtain a degree?



Yes, he is a graduate of Baptist Bible College in Boston and an ordained Baptist minister, although the fellowship is ecumenical.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

debodun said:


> I feel the same way. Perhaps people have stopped attending because they do not want to be brow-beaten every week about giving for funding the church building project. This pastor is obsessed with this dream of a church building. Ever see the movie "The Bishop's Wife"?


deb, that's exactly why I stopped going to our church. The mega churches certainly have had their effect on a lot of "regular" churches, huh.  Enough is not enough, I guess.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> All good questions rgp. God did not want to create Robots. He wanted us to choose on our own to Love and Obey Him just as an earthly father wants from his children. He wanted us to have a relationship with Him. So he created us to make our own choices between Good and Evil (devil and temptation).
> 
> Unfortunately, man chose the devil's tempting offer to eat from the tree of knowledge which God said not to. Thus the Old Testament is riddled with sinful atrocities and God's harsh discipline as He tried to get mankind to choose Good over Evil...to love and obey Him. Yes, God could have just made Man to be be good but that would just make them robots. He finally, in the New Testament, instead of punishment He offered forgiveness to all who believe along with teachings of love and obedience...also kindness, patience, joy, faithfulness, gratitude, and peace




 Sounds too me then like he just created entertainment for himself ? To see which one(s) of us would take the right or wrong path as he sees it. So while he's 'up there' having fun, many of us are 'down' here suffering . Not my kind'a guy.


----------



## debodun (Oct 14, 2019)

Like Job.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

When my son was four, he "wrote" a book (in pictures) and the story was about a lonely boy who invented the earth in a glass bottle.  First he invented dinosaurs, but became bored with them so created people instead, to keep him company, and he was happy.

I never taught him any such thing, and spoke to his Pre-K teacher, and of course she did not either.  I still have the "book" of pictures somewhere.  Always weirded out by this.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Liberty said:


> deb, that's exactly why I stopped going to our church. The mega churches certainly have had their effect on a lot of "regular" churches, huh.  Enough is not enough, I guess.




 There is a local 'church' CrossRoads that is , as I understand it, doing a land office business. It, [as has been suggested] is not the typical [churchy church] but more of a community meeting. And again with the 'down-played' dress code, jumbo-trons, even christian rock bands, the whole bit. It is said that so far the most often heard negative said about it is parking, or the lack of? This makes [even me] curious to attend. Haven't yet though.

There is another 'church' / christian service? That I do support for disaster relief, Matthew 25 ministries . Not for the religious aspect, but because they have a reputation of proper help, & no administration cost in terms [of] their disaster relief.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> Sounds too me then like he just created entertainment for himself ? To see which one(s) of us would take the right or wrong path as he sees it. So while he's 'up there' having fun, many of us are 'down' here suffering . Not my kind'a guy.


So you think Earthly Fathers have children just for entertainment for themselves?
So they can have fun while their children suffer? No, they have them so they can have a relationship with them. 

`


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara, thank you for the 'like' for my post above, #29.  I had wondered how much of this story was imagination, and how much was remembrance.


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> So you think Earthly Fathers have children just for entertainment for themselves?
> So they can have fun while their children suffer? No, they have them so they can have a relationship with them.
> 
> `




 No, I never said that......I said "he" meaning this god that you & others profess to 'be-there'.

 And if you go back [not that far actually] most children were born, just to help out on the farm. IMO one of the main reason child birth is on the decline....they're no longer "needed"


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> No, I never said that......I said "he" meaning this god that you & others profess to 'be-there'. And if you go back [not that far actually] most children were born, just to help out on the farm. IMO one of the main reason child birth is on the decline....they're no longer "needed"


You misunderstood me, sorry I wasn't clear. I knew you were talking about God the Father and not earthly fathers but I was comparing the two to make a point. Because there are some similarities between the two.

I never knew that "childbirth is on the decline because they are no longer needed to help on the farm." Really?  I only knew that millennials are putting birth off until later because they want careers and to be financially stable first. And then there are those like AOC who don't want children at all because she "knows too much about what the world will be like in the future".


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> So you think Earthly Fathers have children just for entertainment for themselves?
> So they can have fun while their children suffer? No, they have them so they can have a relationship with them.
> 
> `


Lara, absolutely.  Feel we are "powerful spiritual beings that descended into matter.  We're like children playing, and our Father/Mother is calling us to come home to supper, and we simply can't hear them because we are so caught up in "our own" creating.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

That's an interesting analogy, Liberty


----------



## rgp (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> You misunderstood me, sorry I wasn't clear. I knew you were talking about God the Father and not earthly fathers but I was comparing the two to make a point. Because there are some similarities between the two.
> 
> I never knew that "childbirth is on the decline because they are no longer needed to help on the farm." Really?  I only knew that millennials are putting birth off until later because they want careers and to be financially stable first. And then there are those like AOC who doesn't want children at all because she "knows too much about what the world will be like in the future".




 There were some "experts" on talk radio on more than one occasion that said child birth was on the decline, and sited....the "need" for them as one reason why. Do they really know?...who knows? But it does make some sense. 

The birth rate is a matter of record, the reason(s) are all over the map.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

Pepper said:


> When my son was four, he "wrote" a book (in pictures) and the story was about a lonely boy who invented the earth in a glass bottle.  First he invented dinosaurs, but became bored with them so created people instead, to keep him company, and he was happy. I never taught him any such thing, and spoke to his Pre-K teacher, and of course she did not either.  I still have the "book" of pictures somewhere.  Always weirded out by this.


You have a very gifted child with a creative mind beyond his years, Pepper. That's a cool story.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> You have a very gifted child with a creative mind beyond his years, Pepper. That's a cool story.


There's an old Chinese saying that the mule was given the first choice to rule over all the other animals on the earth, but declined...which was why it was given to man!  LOL


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

You know what would be an absolute miracle? If everyone accepted each other just the way they are.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

rgp said:


> No, I never said that......I said "he" meaning this god that you & others profess to 'be-there'.
> 
> And if you go back [not that far actually] most children were born, just to help out on the farm. IMO one of the main reason child birth is on the decline....they're no longer "needed"


I read that during China's ''1 child per household'' period (they ended it for many reasons), couples chose to keep a son and killed or abandoned or sold the others.  Their reason was that in their culture, first sons were obligated to support their parents until death, but the daughters went to live with the husband and could not support them.

One of the other reasons China ended the One Child law is that 20-30 years down the line those sons could not find any Chinese women to wed and had to marry foreign women.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You know what would be an absolute miracle? If everyone accepted each other just the way they are.


Now that is an incredibly profound thought Olivia.  Wonderful to employ that much power to do it.  Remember what Shirley McClain said - that she "thought she understood  spiritually and could handle anything now"...and then she went home for Thanksgiving dinner!


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> You know what would be an absolute miracle? If everyone accepted each other just the way they are.



As nice as that sounds there are way too many people in this world that I find to be unacceptable.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> As nice as that sounds there are way too many people in this world that I find to be unacceptable.



Okay, but remember that they would find you and your ideas acceptable, too. And maybe that way we could find enough compromises to make the planet a better place to live for everyone. 

I know, Pollyanna type thinking. On the other hand, do I believe this would ever happen? Remember, I said it would be an absolute miracle. What's the odd of that ever happening?


----------



## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> To take that little girl out of this sinful world and *bring her Home* is beautiful, loving, and peaceful for her for eternity. We are all just passing through this life which is just a speck compared to eternal life beyond.



WHO has any PROOF that there is a place beyond death?  No one has ever come back to tell us about that heaven or hell.  It was all invented by religious leaders during millennia to control humans and their actions (crowd control).  It was all imaginary theories about what happens to us after death,  simply because we refuse to believe when we die it's truly the end.  That is why they invented the soul, since the soul is invisible but we can see that the physical body decays.   It was the same kind of imagination they used when they drew constellations that resembled people and animals among the infinite number of stars in the night sky.  Religion is man's attempt to explain mysteries of life and the universe.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> Religion is man's attempt to explain mysteries of life and the universe.



Life without mysteries would be rather sad.  But there are many other ways besides religion that give us mysteries to contemplate.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

Lara said:


> He finally, in the New Testament, instead of punishment He offered forgiveness to all who believe along with teachings of love and obedience...also kindness, patience, joy, faithfulness, gratitude, and peace



The real reason that the New Testament was written was because the Old Testament portrayed God as a cruel and vengeful god who pitted one tribe against another, it put off people.  So, after Jesus, the new bible was written with a new and improved God who was all kindness and forgiveness, much more appealing to attract more followers (and donations).


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> WHO has any PROOF that there is a place beyond death?  No one has ever come back to tell us about that heaven or hell.  It was all invented by religious leaders during millennia to control humans and their actions (crowd control).  It was all imaginary theories about what happens to us after death,  simply because we refuse to believe when we die it's truly the end.  That is why they invented the soul, since the soul is invisible but we can see that the physical body decays.   It was the same kind of imagination they used when they drew constellations that resembled people and animals among the infinite number of stars in the night sky.  Religion is man's attempt to explain mysteries of life and the universe.


You either are a soul or you aren't.  No matter what world you are currently taking up perfectly good space in. There are miracles happening everyday in and around us but who among us recognizes them, rather than just taking them for granted?  Why not when we can always strain at a gnat.


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> WHO has any PROOF that there is a place beyond death?...It was all invented by religious leaders during millennia to control humans and their actions (crowd control).  It was all imaginary theories about what happens to us after death,  simply because we refuse to believe when we die it's truly the end.  That is why they invented the soul, since the soul is invisible but we can see that the physical body decays.


And where's your PROOF. You are basing these assumptions on your faith. That's okay, but I just want you to realize that this is all about faith. You just have a very different faith  than I have.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 14, 2019)

Liberty said:


> You either are a soul or you aren't.



There is no such thing as a soul, another myth invented by religious leaders to control the populace with either hope (for eternal life) or fear (for retribution for bad deeds).   What we consider a ''soul'' is merely our brain's consciousness, which ceases to exist once the heart stops and the brain stops working a short time later.

I am done with this subject, we'll agree to disagree while the conversation is still civil.


----------



## debodun (Oct 14, 2019)

Now getting back to why many church attendances are decreasing....


----------



## Lara (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> There is no such thing as a soul, another myth invented by religious leaders to control the populace...What we consider a ''soul'' is merely our brain's consciousness, which ceases to exist once the heart stops and the brain stops working a short time later.


Then where does LOVE happen? Not in the bloody heart organ. Not the brain. It's only when you FIRST fall in love that you receive a rush of hormones from the brain including oxytocin, dopamine, estrogen, and testosterone. This plays a roll in the fluttery feelings of excitement, attraction, and euphoria but that's just puppy love. It doesn't last. What about true Deep Love. The kind you would lay down your life for and want to spend your life with. Where does that come from? And what about all those near death experiences who see their loved ones greeting them from the other side? What a bummer to meet them and then could care less about it...lol. There's a joy they describe. Why are they so happy if their Love died on the gurney? lol. Just some questions to think about. Love is more complicated than you give it credit for I think.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

debodun said:


> Now getting back to why many church attendances are decreasing....



More and more people are figuring out what a scam it is.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> I am done with this subject, we'll agree to disagree while the conversation is still civil.



That's really it, isn't it? Politics and religion bring about the same heated feelings. Which I don't understand why religion talk is also not allowed along with politics.  Neither topic brings about any kind of understanding with each other. It is possible to understand each other without having to agree with each other.  For myself, my belief, whatever they may be, are for myself. I don't need anyone else to have to agree, no matter what kind of beliefs they are. We're all human. I think we have enough in common already.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> There is no such thing as a soul, another myth invented by religious leaders to control the populace with either hope (for eternal life) or fear (for retribution for bad deeds).   What we consider a ''soul'' is merely our brain's consciousness, which ceases to exist once the heart stops and the brain stops working a short time later.
> 
> I am done with this subject, we'll agree to disagree while the conversation is still civil.


Always stays civil.  That's good.


Lara said:


> So a deep feeling of Love comes from your physical heart organ and brain organ? And just dies when these organs die?


Until some can palpate the soul they will assume its not there by earthly (currently able to be measured) organic standards. Like you mention about reasons for love or long suffering or acts of heroism.  Think science and religion are backing up into the center of a target and they will turn around and find each other.


----------



## 1955er (Oct 14, 2019)

PVC said:


> There is no such thing as a soul, another myth invented by religious leaders to control the populace with either hope (for eternal life) or fear (for retribution for bad deeds).   What we consider a ''soul'' is merely our brain's consciousness, which ceases to exist once the heart stops and the brain stops working a short time later.
> 
> I am done with this subject, we'll agree to disagree while the conversation is still civil.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 14, 2019)

1955er said:


> God is a concept by which we measure our pain.


Very well spoken, as we are part of God; we surely must "pain" the great universal mind also!


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm an atheist, so church attendance for me...........But church attendance, and religiosity usually peak several decades after a major war, and then drop off to prewar numbers. This happened  especially after the Civil War, and WWII. There was also a rise in spirituality, and then decrease.  I'm not exactly sure why.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 14, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Now that is an incredibly profound thought Olivia.  Wonderful to employ that much power to do it.  Remember what Shirley McClain said - that she "thought she understood  spiritually and could handle anything now"...and then she went home for Thanksgiving dinner!


But when Shirley goes to family dinners Warren Beatty is there!


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> That's really it, isn't it? Politics and religion bring about the same heated feelings.



I think in the past that may have been true, but these days I find the political discourse to be way more brutal.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> I think in the past that may have been true, but these days I find the political discourse to be way more brutal.



I understand, but I don't like either. At least in politics one can site some kind of facts, in dispute or not. In religion, it's all personal until it also becomes politics.


----------



## Trade (Oct 14, 2019)

Olivia said:


> In religion, it's all personal until it also becomes politics.



That's the worst case scenario. When politics and religion are merged. That scenario scares the Hell out of me.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2019)

Trade said:


> That's the worst case scenario. When politics and religion are merged. That scenario scares the Hell out of me.



Yes, and that is to my mind the way it is absolutely the way it is now. It's like forget our principles, as long as we get what we want, the devil be damned.


----------



## healthfreak (Oct 14, 2019)

debodun said:


> When I first started going to the local fellowship church a few years ago, it was SRO there. The last few months, though, the first two rows of seats are hardly filled (that's around 20 people). I though at first maybe because of summer people were away on vacation and other summer activities, but each week fewer and fewer attend. The pastor has even remarked about it during the service. It seems to me it is really eating at him since he needs the collection money to build a real church building. Currently we are holding services in a rented venue.




That is a trend that is occurring everywhere around the world.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 15, 2019)

I wonder if the scandal in the Catholic Church is a reason for decrease attendance in all Christian denominations. The scandal isn't missing money from the poor box. It is about the rape of children and the Church's coverup of those facts. As the scandal has grown, almost all denominations have been tainted by it. The scandal has exposed a Church that is more protective of  its rapist priests than its flock. While the Church professes to have changed, some question whether it has. Only a couple of months ago, another local priest was exposed for ****** misconduct. As far as image goes, how does one preach about sin and living a "Christian life", when one harbors child rapists? It's the scope of the scandal.. Far from a few errant priests, there are tens of thousands all over the world. This has to be damaging to the congregation's faith in their Church.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I wonder if the scandal in the Catholic Church is a reason for decrease attendance in all Christian denominations. The scandal isn't missing money from the poor box. It is about the rape of children and the Church's coverup of those facts. As the scandal has grown, almost all denominations have been tainted by it. The scandal has exposed a Church that is more protective of  its rapist priests than its flock. While the Church professes to have changed, some question whether it has. Only a couple of months ago, another local priest was exposed for ****** misconduct. As far as image goes, how does one preach about sin and living a "Christian life", when one harbors child rapists? It's the scope of the scandal.. Far from a few errant priests, there are tens of thousands all over the world. This has to be damaging to the congregation's faith in their Church.


Not all the churches are having attrition issues.  This is the largest church in the US:

*1. Lakewood Church
> Location:* Houston, TX
*> Pastor:* Joel Osteen
*> Average weekly attendance:* 43,500
*> Denomination:* Independent, non-denominational


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Oct 15, 2019)

Liberty, you will notice that the Church you mentioned is not affiliated with any major denomination., or hierarchy. ?????


----------



## gennie (Oct 15, 2019)

I have faith (although I'm at a loss as to what it is exactly) but the evil, hypocrisy and greed in modern organized religions leave me cold.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Not all the churches are having attrition issues.  This is the largest church in the US:
> 
> *1. Lakewood Church
> > Location:* Houston, TX
> ...



Isn't Joel Osteen the pastor of the mega church that refused refuge to the victims of the great flood in Texas after hurricane Harvey in August 2017?  He only opened up the place after scathing criticism from the media and fear that he would lose his followers and income.  Talk about Christian charity hypocrisy.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> Isn't Joel Osteen the pastor of the mega church that refused refuge to the victims of the great flood in Texas after hurricane Harvey in August 2017?  He only opened up the place after scathing criticism from the media and fear that he would lose his followers and income.  Talk about Christian charity hypocrisy.


No, honestly think that was "fake news".  You know what they say...the bigger they are the more you like to read about them falling.  Actually, from what I understand, and from pictures on TV, they were flooded  pretty bad and couldn't bring anyone in.  After they got the swamp drained they had  gigantic food, toy, clothing and mattress delivery projects  and did give a lot through the local charities.  

They have showers set up and a cafeteria that serves the homeless on an ongoing basis.  That I do know. I've known a guy that worked there at the cafeteria.  Don't go to the church, but I can tell you they sure don't "shake the can" in your face on the tube if you watch his sermans.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> Isn't Joel Osteen the pastor of the mega church that refused refuge to the victims of the great flood in Texas after hurricane Harvey in August 2017?  He only opened up the place after scathing criticism from the media and fear that he would lose his followers and income.  Talk about Christian charity hypocrisy.


Ok, here's the updated story  that mentions what happened with Harvey.  There are also images on the web of the flooding.  They had to move a lot of contents, due to the water onslaught:

https://www.chron.com/houston/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-Imelda-shelter-14453042.php


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Liberty, you will notice that the Church you mentioned is not affiliated with any major denomination., or hierarchy. ?????


Yes, and "he" doesn't preach devil or sinning...lol.  The sermans are upbeat and he's even been slammed for that.  Sigh.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Ok, here's the updated story  that mentions what happened with Harvey.  There are also images on the web of the flooding.  They had to move a lot of contents, due to the water onslaught:
> 
> https://www.chron.com/houston/article/Joel-Osteen-s-Lakewood-Church-Imelda-shelter-14453042.php


Here's the story by Snopes = https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-osteens-megachurch-affected/

"The church was flooded on the inside, garage level, basement level, not where the main floors are. It’s a huge place. "


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> Here's the story by Snopes = https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-osteens-megachurch-affected/
> 
> "The church was flooded on the inside, garage level, basement level, not where the main floors are. It’s a huge place. "


I understood from some people they really had to scramble to save a lot of equipment. They cancelled services, too, during the flooding. As long as we've ever heard anything about Lakewood from those that were members or volunteered there they've always been right up front when helping the homeless.  

Can't imagine why they wouldn't have then unless they felt it necessary.  Of course, with that said, there are always the negative media folks who would rather throw stones than give a loaf of bread to someone who needs it.  That's what sells.

BTW, Houston has done wonderfully well in reducing homelessness and that church has been super good at helping, that much I do know :

https://www.searchhomeless.org/houston-leads-the-nation-in-reducing-homelessness/


----------



## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

@Liberty  =  You said you're not a member of his church, so this below is just for the sake of debate.

Osteen's house is worth $10m, I'm sure paid for from donations to his church.  You don't think he should have bought a ''modest'' house of say $1m and used the other $9m to help his parishioners and others in need?

If you bothered to read the Snopes article, they're a fact checking website, their article gave both sides of the story (not biased fake news).  They even published photos taken by average people (not reporters), are you saying those photos are lying?


----------



## Judycat (Oct 15, 2019)

In my 20s, 30s and most of my 40s I was a faithful churchgoer. I finally quit going because I could only stand to hear the same teachings on the same Bible verses so many times. I still have my faith, but church became too repetitious. Into my 50s the preaching sounded silly anymore.

Not that I'll never go to church again. I show up for family events, but as I sit there, I realize why I no longer go regularly. I would never tell anyone what they should do with their faith though. If you still enjoy church then go by all means. 

My mother was 70 before she called it quits.  She had had it when the pastor asked everyone to pray for a certain team to win the Super Bowl, he wasn't kidding.  My pastor spent a whole Sunday morning gushing over the local school winning state finals. People from all over the county went to that church. Guy was an idiot. We're supposed to respect the leadership, I just can't anymore.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 15, 2019)

Well, just for argument's sake, Osteen published a lot of books which sold very well.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Judycat said:


> My mother was 70 before she called it quits.  She had had it when the *pastor asked everyone to pray for a certain team to win the Super Bowl, *he wasn't kidding.



Maybe he had made a bet on the team and needed all the help he could get to win the bet.


----------



## Trade (Oct 15, 2019)

Judycat said:


> She had had it when the pastor asked everyone to pray for a certain team to win the Super Bowl, he wasn't kidding.



I went to the First Baptist Church in Winter Haven Florida for a while after my divorce ostensibly to help me through my "time of trouble" but really because someone at work said church would be a good place to meet women (it wasn't, at least not for me). Anyway, come election time they passed out voting guides to tell you who to vote for. Interestingly enough all the recommended candidates were of the same political persuasion. And their positions seemed to me to be quite the opposite of what Jesus taught. But then what would a heathen like myself know about that?     _
_


----------



## Liberty (Oct 15, 2019)

PVC said:


> @Liberty  =  You said you're not a member of his church, so this below is just for the sake of debate.
> 
> Osteen's house is worth $10m, I'm sure paid for from donations to his church.  You don't think he should have bought a ''modest'' house of say $1m and used the other $9m to help his parishioners and others in need?
> 
> If you bothered to read the Snopes article, they're a fact checking website, their article gave both sides of the story (not biased fake news).  They even published photos taken by average people (not reporters), are you saying those photos are lying?


Ok, first of all, I don't tend to penalize anyone for living well.  Its not my job to say how much they should or should not spend on whatever they choose to spend it on.  That's between them and their conscience.

Secondly, the Snoops article gave the flooding issue a "mixture" rating if you so noted  on their official rating category, not a thumbs down. so like "who cares" at this point.  Its paper under the kiddie sand...lol.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 15, 2019)

I don't think any of the apostles lived in a $10 million dollar house.  I do believe Jesus said something along the lines that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 15, 2019)

_"I didn't ask you to pay for it, I asked you to believe for it." _- God


----------



## Catlady (Oct 15, 2019)

Although it doesn't really bother me much when billionaires live extravagant lifestyles, I find it obscene when people who live  by donations and charities live those lifestyles.  Here are the top 10 pastors who make the most money, #1 Kenneth Copeland is by some accounts worth $300-$750m.  Obviously most of the donations is not going to the needy.   AND, they obviously don't believe in an afterlife where they'll be accountable.  Pity the gullible people who donate to them.

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/net-worth-richest-pastors-will-blow-your-mind.html/


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I don't think any of the apostles lived in a $10 million dollar house.  I do believe Jesus said something along the lines that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.





Butterfly said:


> I don't think any of the apostles lived in a $10 million dollar house.  I do believe Jesus said something along the lines that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.


Could be, but I read somewhere that John the Divine's estate was valued during the depression and would have been worth a quarter million dollars.  I guess it depends of whether you possess the riches or the riches possess you. Maybe that's the definition of a "rich man and the camel going through the narrow passageway - the camel has to be unloaded to get through. 

I do know what you mean, about pastors and priests getting rich off of stupid people that put money in padre's plate, though...lol.  I've thought about this issue a lot, but also don't believe poverty is in and of itself a virtue, either.  Maybe the happy medium is the way to go..."the laborer is worthy of his or her hire?"


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

Liberty said:


> I do know what you mean, about *pastors and priests getting rich off of stupid people that put money in padre's plate*, though...lol.  I've thought about this issue a lot, but also don't believe poverty is in and of itself a virtue, either.



I agree, being poor by choice is dumb.  I think people can be wealthy and still be good people, treat others well and help those they can help.  
Added:  Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are two of the richest men in the world and they both give a lot of money to charities.

I had an aunt in Italy who wasn't very bright, she and her kids went without food a lot, she used to come visit my mother begging for food some days.  YET, she went every single morning to church and put money into the plate.  My mother tried to reason with her but to no avail.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> I agree, being poor by choice is dumb.  I think people can be wealthy and still be good people, treat others well and help those they can help.
> 
> I had an aunt in Italy who wasn't very bright, she and her kids went without food a lot, she used to come visit my mother begging for food some days.  YET, she went every single morning to church and put money into the plate.  My mother tried to reason with her but to no avail.


That sounds like her "elevator didn't go to the top floor"...lol.


----------



## Trade (Oct 16, 2019)

Judycat said:


> She had had it when the pastor asked everyone to pray for a certain team to win the Super Bowl, he wasn't kidding.



When I was a little kid I once prayed my heart out for the Dodgers to win a game I was watching. I can still remember repeating over and over "help them win it, help them win it" But they lost. Maybe that's why I'm an Atheist today.


----------



## StarSong (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> When I was a little kid I once prayed my heart out for the Dodgers to win a game I was watching. I can still remember repeating over and over "help them win it, help them win it" But they lost. Maybe that's why I'm an Atheist today.


I feel your pain, Trade.  That very thing happened to me just a few days ago...


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

StarSong said:


> I feel your pain, Trade.  That very thing happened to me just a few days ago...


Its like that Stones' song "You don't always get what you want", huh...lol.

With that said, have you ever prayed for something and didn't get it and then found out later it was great that you "didn't get what you thought you knew you really wanted?"


----------



## gennie (Oct 16, 2019)

I once had a mother-in-law who insisted on sending part of her pitifully small monthly  income to Billy Graham 'because he lived in a little old log cabin in the woods'. 

 Graham was worth millions at the time and the little log cabin was the huge house constructed from bits and pieces of old log cabins scattered about the south that had been carefully de-constructed  and re-assembled in the Graham house.

Of course, MIL was out of pocket money before the month's end but we saw that she wanted for nothing.  Sending Billy money was a small price if it made her feel good about herself.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

gennie said:


> I once had a mother-in-law who insisted on sending part of her pitifully small monthly  income to Billy Graham 'because he lived in a little old log cabin in the woods'.
> 
> Graham was worth millions at the time and the little log cabin was the huge house constructed from bits and pieces of old log cabins scattered about the south that had been carefully de-constructed  and re-assembled in the Graham house.
> 
> Of course, MIL was out of pocket money before the month's end but we saw that she wanted for nothing.  Sending Billy money was a small price if it made her feel good about herself.


According to the article I posted above, Graham was worth $25m in February 2018 when he died at age 99.  His son is also worth $25m.


----------



## rgp (Oct 16, 2019)

gennie said:


> I once had a mother-in-law who insisted on sending part of her pitifully small monthly  income to Billy Graham 'because he lived in a little old log cabin in the woods'.
> 
> Graham was worth millions at the time and the little log cabin was the huge house constructed from bits and pieces of old log cabins scattered about the south that had been carefully de-constructed  and re-assembled in the Graham house.
> 
> Of course, MIL was out of pocket money before the month's end but we saw that she wanted for nothing.  Sending Billy money was a small price if it made her feel good about herself.




   They do prey [pun intended] on people that for some reason feel a need to give, and those that also for some reason, need a crutch.

 I have no use for any of them........hell their church/religious status even gets them into the pockets of tax payers.......by virtue of them paying very little to no tax at all.....costing the rest of us more.....disgusting !


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> They do prey [pun intended] on people that for some reason feel a need to give, and those that also for some reason, need a crutch.
> 
> I have no use for any of them........hell their church/religious status even gets them into the pockets of tax payers.......*by virtue of them paying very little to no tax at all*.....costing the rest of us more.....disgusting !


Not only that, but they're also not supposed to be involved in politics and they do that anyway, not only vocally but with donations.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

rgp said:


> They do prey [pun intended] on people that for some reason feel a need to give, and those that also for some reason, need a crutch.
> 
> I have no use for any of them........hell their church/religious status even gets them into the pockets of tax payers.......by virtue of them paying very little to no tax at all.....costing the rest of us more.....disgusting !


Did you hear about the Jewish fellow that moved into a small town and opened a business that became very successful?  One day the tax man came in and told him his taxes were quadrupling.  

The tax guy took out a map and showed him how he was on one of the four main commercial corners of the town, and the other three were occupied by: The Catholic Church and business offices, The Presbyterian Church, and the Morman Church so that meant that he had to pay taxes for the whole commercial areas.  He sighed, slipped on a Yamaka and then slammed his Torah down on the counter, declaring  "Get thine hand off my alter, already."


----------



## StarSong (Oct 16, 2019)

I stopped attending church when the hypocrisy of it all became unbearable. Being told that if people don't believe exactly as each religion dictates they'll be damned.  Love everyone, but bear in mind that God truly doesn't because, after all, if they believed differently they'd be damned. What kind of love is that???   

Endlessly being asked for money, and pressed to invite friends/neighbors/warm bodies to come to church absolutely wore me down. I was the church treasurer for many years, and I'm here to tell you that the owners of the shingle outside (in that case the United Methodist Church and its formidable hierarchy) made sure they took care of themselves and their own. The flock and outsider came in a very distant third and fourth. 

When I've been back for funerals or weddings it doesn't take ten minutes to remember why I left.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

I used to have a penpal who told me that I MUST go to church or I would end up in hell.  I told him that if there is a heaven I will surely go there because I am basically a good person and harmed no one.  He told me that didn't matter whether I was a good person or a bad person, what mattered was whether I attended church.   Grrrr!


----------



## StarSong (Oct 16, 2019)

@Liberty 
*yarmulke*


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 16, 2019)

Trade said:


> When I was a little kid I once prayed my heart out for the Dodgers to win a game I was watching. I can still remember repeating over and over "help them win it, help them win it" But they lost. Maybe that's why I'm an Atheist today.


Your story reminded me of this.


----------



## 1955er (Oct 16, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> Your story reminded me of this.


I believe that's an Emo Phillips line.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 16, 2019)

1955er said:


> I believe that's an Emo Phillips line.


Maybe Al stole more than a bike.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> Your story reminded me of this.


LOL   That way is faster and guaranteed that you will get that bike.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> Maybe Al stole more than a bike.


I really do like that post, Aunt Bea...so true.  Forgiving ourselves is truly vital, also.  Although guilt is a very powerful weapon...lol.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 16, 2019)

PVc’s post regarding televangelist:


If your watching a televangelist who’s presentation is slick, polished, conciliatory presenting a ‘feel good’ message; it is time to do some research.
Her list of charlatans should be heeded.
I’ve watched three or four of these folks-are those dollars signs on their foreheads or am I seeing things?
I am saddened that our species is so gullible.



I do not agree with the information presented on Billy Graham, but I will research before I offer a rebuttal,).
Another opinion: Trade went to church to ‘catch a woman.’ I’ve told my sons, ‘Your chances of finding a decent woman are far great in church than at a bar."

I said opinions-okay.


----------



## Lara (Oct 16, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


>


That's hilarious Aunt Bee.
Gave me a good chuckle.

Psalm 37:3-5 says He will give Al the desires of his heart...like that bike. But whenever God makes a promise He also gives a condition that Al must do for his part first. I'll let those who want to know, find the answer in the scripture I posted (or google it) so I'm not labeled a Proselytizer.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 16, 2019)

Payers are answered, sometimes the answer is 'No.'


----------



## Lara (Oct 16, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> Prayers are answered, sometimes the answer is 'No.'


I agree Jerry. We don't always know what's best for us but God does.


----------



## 911 (Oct 16, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> Payers are answered, sometimes the answer is 'No.'


That's weird. We had a Trooper that came down with AIDS through transfusions with him being a Hemophiliac (bleeder). I prayed for his recovery, but he died. When I told our Chaplain that I prayed for his recovery, he told me that "Sometimes God says no."  I was stunned and just looked at him. You could hear crickets chirp. So, I walked away. I didn't know what to think about that answer.


----------



## 911 (Oct 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> LOL   That way is faster and guaranteed that you will get that bike.



Funny stuff:

A Baptist minister is performing an old style baptizing by dunking his new members into the small lake behind the church. 

He dunks the first fellow and after he brings him out of the water, he asked him, "Did you see God?"
The parishioner responded, "No." 
So, the minister dunked him again and after he raised him up out of the water, he asked, "Did you see God?"
Again, the parishioner said, "No."
So, the minister dunks him a third time, raises him out of the water and asks him again, "Did you see God?"
And, again the parishioner said, "No, but are you sure that he's even down there?" 
Ba-dump!!!

The other Baptist joke that was told to me by a Baptist was:

Jake: "Do you know how to define a Baptist?"
Elwood: "No."
Jake: "A Baptist is a person who keeps getting dunked in the lake until he comes around to their way of thinking." 
Ba-dump!!!

(No disrespect intended.)


----------



## Pepper (Oct 16, 2019)

"He sighed, slipped on a Yamaka and then slammed his Torah down on the counter, declaring "Get thine hand off my alter, already." "
I don't get it.  What's that mean?


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

Pepper said:


> "He sighed, slipped on a Yamaka and then slammed his Torah down on the counter, declaring "Get thine hand off my alter, already." "
> I don't get it.  What's that mean?


You're kidding me, right? The other three corners were occupied by churches, which didn't pay taxes so he declared his business a synagogue...(aka - Torah on the alter) which also doesn't have to pay taxes!
Hey, got several more, but if you didn't get that one, doubt that you'd like these others...lol.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Hey, got several more



Please post, laughter is the best medicine, it's the only medicine I like to take.


----------



## Liberty (Oct 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> Please post, laughter is the best medicine, it's the only medicine I like to take.


Ok, here's one.  Teacher at private Christian school asks class "who was the most important person in the Bible?"

No answer, so she decides to bribe them with a $20 bill.  One kid raises his hand and says "it was Jonah".  No dice.  Sigh.  Second kid raises hand and says "It was Moses".  Nope.  Third kid (who was Jewish) offers up "It was Jesus".  Teacher gets teared up, so proud that the only Jewish kid in this Christian school was so "listening" and learning from her.  

She ask him to stay after the class left and said "how did you know it was Jesus?". To which Jewish kid replied "hey, I would have said Abraham, but business is business you know."


----------



## fmdog44 (Oct 16, 2019)

Part of the reason is there are online services and donation websites now. I think the number of Christians is about 3.4 billion. Add other religions and you have a strong presence of worshippers.


----------



## fmdog44 (Oct 16, 2019)

Lara said:


> I agree Jerry. We don't always know what's best for us but God does.


That is the definition of faith. When we lose a young loved one we ask why and the answer is always faith.


----------



## Butterfly (Oct 16, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Could be, but I read somewhere that John the Divine's estate was valued during the depression and would have been worth a quarter million dollars.  I guess it depends of whether you possess the riches or the riches possess you. Maybe that's the definition of a "rich man and the camel going through the narrow passageway - the camel has to be unloaded to get through.
> 
> I do know what you mean, about pastors and priests getting rich off of stupid people that put money in padre's plate, though...lol.  I've thought about this issue a lot, but also don't believe poverty is in and of itself a virtue, either.  Maybe the happy medium is the way to go..."the laborer is worthy of his or her hire?"



I don't understand the part about John the Divine.  What estate?? To whom are you referring?  How could someone during the depression evaluate the "estate," if there was one, of someone who lived 2000 years ago, and who many dispute even lived at all??

Please clarify.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 16, 2019)

Early and middle 50':
Didn't have to worry about going to hell, Preachers of (unnamed Protestant group) scared the hell  out of young ears.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 16, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Ok, here's one.  Teacher at private Christian school asks class "who was the most important person in the Bible?"
> 
> No answer, so she decides to bribe them with a $20 bill.  One kid raises his hand and says "it was Jonah".  No dice.  Sigh.  Second kid raises hand and says "It was Moses".  Nope.  Third kid (who was Jewish) offers up "It was Jesus".  Teacher gets teared up, so proud that the only Jewish kid in this Christian school was so "listening" and learning from her.
> 
> She ask him to stay after the class left and said "how did you know it was Jesus?". To which Jewish kid replied "hey, I would have said Abraham, but business is business you know."


LOL, he wanted that $20 badly enough to read her mind and knew the answer Abraham was not going to get him that $20.   Jewish people are born businessmen.    Don't want to spoil the joke, but what was a Jewish boy doing in a Christian school?


----------



## Lara (Oct 16, 2019)

PVC said:


> ...what was a Jewish boy doing in a Christian school?


Jesus Christ identified as a Jew and observed Passover and Hanukkah. He taught in the Synagogue and was accepted there as a teacher but not as the Son of God. Some Jewish people, though few, are Christians and believe the Messiah has come and was Jesus Christ the Son of God and Savior. But they still identify as Jewish by lineage and heritage just like Jesus.

I went to church with a Christian jew and he came to visit my young children once (just after their Dad passed) during Thanksgiving dressed as a Pilgrim because he just wanted to make them smile. He also invited the church congregation to his home for a Passover dinner and to share his customs and answer questions.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 17, 2019)

Aunt Bea: (post 82)
So, a fella that needs a 54 million dollar jet.  I got a message for him.

Okay, Jesse you know  prayers get an answer: sometimes yes, sometime no and sometimes not in the way you/we expected.

No one told me to do this, I've done it on  my own:
Enclosed you will find a $1.00 gift certificate from Dollar Tree; you go on down there and get yourself a good dollar broom, bett'cha you don't need instructions  on how to ride it-Bon voyage


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> LOL, he wanted that $20 badly enough to read her mind and knew the answer Abraham was not going to get him that $20.   *Jewish people are born businessmen*.    Don't want to spoil the joke, but what was a Jewish boy doing in a Christian school?


I know you can't understand it, but that remark is racist, even if you meant it as a compliment.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Jesus Christ identified as a Jew and observed Passover and Hanukkah. He taught in the Synagogue and was accepted there as a teacher but not as the Son of God. Some Jewish people, though few, are Christians and believe the Messiah has come and was Jesus Christ the Son of God and Savior. But they still identify as Jewish by lineage and heritage just like Jesus.
> 
> *I went to church with a Christian jew* and he came to visit my young children once (just after their Dad passed) during Thanksgiving dressed as a Pilgrim because he just wanted to make them smile. He also invited the church congregation to his home for a Passover dinner and to share his customs and answer questions.


Q:  What do you call a Messianic Jew?
A:  A Christian

In a Jewish world, the Real One, there is no such animal as a Christian Jew.  This person can pretend all he wants.


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> In a Jewish world, the Real One, there is no such animal as a Christian Jew.  This person can pretend all he wants.


Biblical teaching says otherwise. All human beings were created with the ability of choice. They can choose to believe in Christianity or not. God isn't 'racist' against Jews or any ethnicity. He loves ALL His children. "Knock and the door shall be opened".


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Jewish people do not recognize your New Testament.  Respect people for who they are, not for how you wish them to be.


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

You may have the last word. I'm being careful not to be confrontational and we're off topic. Have a good day.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

You, too, (((Lara))).  Have a good day.


----------



## StarSong (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> LOL, he wanted that $20 badly enough to read her mind and knew the answer Abraham was not going to get him that $20.   *Jewish people are born businessmen.* Don't want to spoil the joke, but what was a Jewish boy doing in a Christian school?



Lara, I know your heart a little bit from your postings here so I'm sure it was unintentional, but that's an insulting stereotype that my Jewish friends would find deeply offensive, as I do on their behalf.


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

Star Song, your quoting PVC, not me. I didn't say, "Jewish people are born business men"...PVC did.


----------



## StarSong (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Star Song, your quoting PVC, not me. I didn't say, "Jewish people are born business men...PVC did.


My apologies, Lara.  As I said, it didn't seem consistent with my impression of who you are.  Guess I was right the first time.  ♥


----------



## Liberty (Oct 17, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I don't understand the part about John the Divine.  What estate?? To whom are you referring?  How could someone during the depression evaluate the "estate," if there was one, of someone who lived 2000 years ago, and who many dispute even lived at all??
> 
> Please clarify.


Its something that was studied evidently.  Back in the 80's in church it was discussed. There are historians that review records and lineages I guess.  He also was the only disciple that didn't leave Jesus i.e. (mother behold thy son...) lived to old age, dying a natural death.  Of course history is history and there can be a lot of different opinions just like about anything else, I guess.  Research it, perhaps?


----------



## Liberty (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> LOL, he wanted that $20 badly enough to read her mind and knew the answer Abraham was not going to get him that $20.   Jewish people are born businessmen.    Don't want to spoil the joke, but what was a Jewish boy doing in a Christian school?


Oh, you're not spoiling the joke...my mother was raised in SDA boarding schools and she went to school with well to do Christian kids mostly, but because the school was so highly rated; the SDA's eat like the Jews do (no fish without scales, no shrimp, crab, crustaceans, pork, etc) and was a boarding school, Jewish kids attended also. It was quite common.  

My grandfather was a plenty heavy deep (PhD)  SDA professor!


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I know you can't understand it, but that remark is racist, even if you meant it as a compliment.



 Really ?....Is Jewish a race or a religion ?


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

It's controversial as to whether Jews are considered a race, a religion, a culture, or a nation from what I've read.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Depends who you ask, rpg.  

As to what you quoted, racist is a broad term, but it does indicate a prejudice, whether for or against.  i.e. "All blacks have rhythm."


----------



## Sunny (Oct 17, 2019)

Being Jewish is basically a tribal designation. I don't think "race" really comes into the picture, as some Jews are black, most are white.

Judaism, on the other hand, is a religion. You can be Jewish by birth, tribal identity, etc. without believing in, or practicing, Judaism. Hence the term
"secular Jew."  Bernie Sanders is one. So is a large number, perhaps the majority, of American Jews.

Insulting remarks, such as that one about Jews being "good businessmen, heh heh" are prejudiced and offensive. But I don't know if "racist" really applies. 

All this reminds me of a joke, supposedly a true story. An American visiting Ireland gets into a discussion with one of the Irish locals. The Irish guy asks him, "I've been wondering, are you Protestant or Catholic?"

The American says, "Neither. I'm an atheist."

The Irish guy says, "Ah, I see.  But are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?"


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Sunny said:


> Being Jewish is basically a tribal designation. I don't think "race" really comes into the picture, as some Jews are black, most are white.
> 
> Judaism, on the other hand, is a religion. You can be Jewish by birth, tribal identity, etc. without believing in, or practicing, Judaism. Hence the term
> "secular Jew."  Bernie Sanders is one. So is a large number, perhaps the majority, of American Jews.
> ...




  Exactly, so since it is not defined , it cannot be a _racist_ remark. And IMO saying something good about a group or an individual {Jews being "good businessmen",} shouldn't be considered a prejudiced remark. Too me it is actually a compliment. 

 BTW, in my experience, they are. 

 Besides, I refuse to be PC.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> Exactly, so since it is not defined , it cannot be a _racist_ remark. And IMO saying something good about a group or an individual {Jews being "good businessmen",} shouldn't be considered a prejudiced remark. Too me it is actually a compliment.
> 
> BTW, in my experience, they are.
> 
> Besides, I refuse to be PC.


Until the compliment becomes something society no longer values--then what?  To designate an entire group as having a particular trait may not be racist, technically, but it is a prejudice and prejudice can be defined as going both ways.

In refusing to be PC, does that mean you automatically react by saying 'no' without giving an idea any credence?

BTW, in your experience?  How limited, or unlimited, is that?  How many examples can you actually cite?


----------



## StarSong (Oct 17, 2019)

rgp said:


> Exactly, so since it is not defined , it cannot be a _racist_ remark. And IMO saying something good about a group or an individual {*Jews being "good businessmen*",} shouldn't be considered a prejudiced remark. Too me it is actually a compliment.
> 
> BTW, in my experience, they are.
> 
> Besides, I refuse to be PC.



Stereotypes are damaging even when they're supposedly complimentary.  Being older folks most of us are familiar with how hurtful it is when younger people presume we are mentally infirm, poor drivers, slow moving, unable to manage modern electronics, can't put our groceries in our car, etc., etc.  They believe they're being kind and thoughtful, but it's insulting.  ("Baby Shark" has grandparent sharks toothless - neither amusing nor charming.)

Being PC means thinking a second time about how one's words might hurt someone else. No badges of honor are awarded to folks who insist on being old bulls in new china shops.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Until the compliment becomes something society no longer values--then what?  To designate an entire group as having a particular trait may not be racist, technically, but it is a prejudice and prejudice can be defined as going both ways.
> 
> In refusing to be PC, does that mean you automatically react by saying 'no' without giving an idea any credence?
> 
> BTW, in your experience?  How limited, or unlimited, is that?  How many examples can you actually cite?




  I'm not going to sit here & try to come up with numbers/percentages. I'm 70+ yrs old, worked all my adult life, and 20+ yrs of that being involved in sales.....from the buying end. So....that's my experience.......take it or leave it.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

ok rpg, don't want you to bother your pretty head in your dotage!


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Stereotypes are damaging even when they're supposedly complimentary.  Being older folks most of us are familiar with how hurtful it is when younger people presume we are mentally infirm, poor drivers, slow moving, unable to manage modern electronics, can't put our groceries in our car, etc., etc.  They believe they're being kind and thoughtful, but it's insulting.  ("Baby Shark" has grandparent sharks toothless - so not amusing or charming.)
> 
> Being PC means thinking a second time about how one's words might hurt someone else. No badges of honor are awarded to folks who insist on being old bulls in new china shops.




 But.......the stereotype you note about older folks is absolutely true. Some of us do better than others at various stages of aging, others not so well.

We are slower, many/most of us are not "up-to-speed" with all current technology , we [as a group] are likely not as good @ driving as we once were, and mentally not as sharp as we were when we were 25/45/55,etc. So much of it is the truth, about so many of us.....Truth hurts.

It is a fact of life..........How many 65/75/85 yr old ditch diggers or airline pilots do you know? Yeah OK, there may be one or two out there  but that is not representative of our group.


----------



## Robert59 (Oct 17, 2019)

College Boys next door to me think I'm to old too walk 25 feet to a garden I'm planning on growing.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I know you can't understand it, but that remark is racist, *even if you meant it as a compliment*.


I meant is as a compliment, I've always admired their ambition and resourcefulness.  I hate lazy people that expect others to support them.  Compliments (admiration) can NEVER be racist.  Quit looking for stones where there are none.


----------



## debodun (Oct 17, 2019)

A church I used to go to for their Bible study got a new pastor who was a shared minister (she had services at two churches). She had some women attend from her other church and when she said, "Open to the book of Matthew.", most of them didn't even know wher it was in the Bible. And these are suppose to be Christian people.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> I meant is as a compliment, I've always admired their ambition and resourcefulness.  I hate lazy people that expect others to support them.  Compliments (admiration) can NEVER be racist.  Quit looking for stones where there are none.




 Zactly !!!


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> I meant is as a compliment, I've always admired their ambition and resourcefulness.  I hate lazy people that expect others to support them.  Compliments (admiration) can NEVER be racist.  Quit looking for stones where there are none.


I said I thought you were being complimentary.  Your compliments are misguided.  We don't need your compliments.  We've seen your compliments turn on a dime.  No thanks.


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

debodun said:


> A church I used to go to for their Bible study got a new pastor...She had some women attend from her other church and when she said, "Open to the book of Matthew.", most of them didn't even know wher it was in the Bible. And these are suppose to be Christian people.


Maybe they are New Christians. Only God knows their hearts. Maybe God caused you to notice so He could see if you were going to reach out and help them. I don't know but I know He's watching. We don't have to. He's watching us all.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

Oldguy54 said:


> College Boys next door to me think I'm to old too walk 25 feet to a garden I'm planning on growing.




  Well, for me, last year, not to difficult, maybe even carry my tools, push the wheelbarrow etc. Today, it's a task to make it to the coffee pot....about 12' away so?..............age/time does indeed change things.


----------



## debodun (Oct 17, 2019)

Lara said:


> Maybe they are New Christians. Only God knows their hearts. Maybe God caused you to notice so He could see if you were going to reach out and help them. I don't know but I know He's watching. We don't have to. He's watching us all.



Usually when this happens I will help some people if they are sitting close. Some seem to resent help, though. Maybe it makes them self-conscious that I noticed. I've seem some people get page tabs to mark where the books are, like in this picture.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Being PC means thinking a second time about how one's words might hurt someone else. No badges of honor are awarded to folks who insist on being old bulls in new china shops.



Considering the negative reaction to my innocent and complimentary stereotype, I might as well never utter another word for the rest of my life.  Geez, the world is currently paved with eggshells and glass shards.


----------



## Lara (Oct 17, 2019)

debodun said:


> I've seem some people get page tabs to mark where the books are, like in this picture.
> 
> View attachment 78334


That's okay. It's a good idea for those who can't remember. Maybe they have early onset dementia. Maybe new believers. I mean we just don't know. I'm just glad they're in church with their Bible and obviously studying it if they've done tabs for quick cross-referencing. Cool.


----------



## rgp (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> Considering the negative reaction to my innocent and complimentary stereotype, I might as well never utter another word for the rest of my life.  Geez, the world is currently paved with eggshells and glass shards.




 More Zackly....


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> Considering the negative reaction to my innocent and complimentary stereotype, I might as well never utter another word for the rest of my life.  Geez, the world is currently paved with eggshells and glass shards.


Oh, poor misunderstood you!


----------



## jerry old (Oct 17, 2019)

Like snits, keep the blood pumping-huh?
Am Used to snits, I was wrong 99.9%


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

If God wants me to believe in him, he needs to get his butt down here and do some tricks for me. Good ones too. 
Card ticks ain't gonna cut the mustard.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Trade said:


> If God wants me to believe in him, he needs to get his butt down here and do some tricks for me. Good ones too.
> Card ticks ain't gonna cut the mustard.


I loved George Burns and John Denver in that movie, great fantasy.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Well, since I'm being shamed for being a racist and insulting Jews by saying they're ''good businessmen'' (and I'm already in hot water) I will add:  I think the Chinese are *good businessmen* who are resourceful and very ambitious and thrifty.  There!

EDITED:  I should probably change it to ''business *people*'' so as not to offend feminists, too (I'm a feminist).


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

No one is shaming you, just explaining to you.  You have nothing to be ashamed of PVC.


----------



## StarSong (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> Well, since I'm being shamed for being a racist and insulting Jews by saying they're ''good businessmen'' (and I'm already in hot water) I will add:  I think the Chinese are *good businessmen* who are resourceful and very ambitious and thrifty.  There!
> 
> EDITED:  I should probably change it to ''business *people*'' so as not to offend feminists, too (I'm a feminist).


Way to stereotype 2.5 billion Chinese people.  Maybe they'll return the favor and do the same for whatever race/ethnicity you belong to.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

StarSong said:


> Way to stereotype 2.5 billion Chinese people.  Maybe they'll return the favor and do the same for whatever race/ethnicity you belong to.


I was born in Italy and am white (olive skinned to be exact).  Don't wait for the Chinese to do it, you do it for them!


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

I loved spending time in Italy.  I loved the art, food, wine, beautiful scenery.  My DIL's family is from the toe of the boot.  May I ask where you are from?

eta--I started laughing when I crossed the Alps from Switzerland, and didn't stop 'till I left 2 months later in Rome.  Really had the time of my life!


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> I loved spending time in Italy.  I loved the art, food, wine, beautiful scenery.  My DIL's family is from the toe of the boot.  May I ask where you are from?


Abbruzzi, middle of Italy across from Rome on the Adriatic side.  I had just turned 7 when we left for Venezuela, so don't remember much and aside from my little town near Sulmona  I only visited Naples before departure.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

My DIL's family also initially emigrated to Venezuela!  Mmmmmmm, what if we're related?  Think of all the fun we could have arguing!


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Of course, all us humans are somehow related.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Of course, all us humans are somehow related.


That's a disturbing thought.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> My DIL's family also initially emigrated to Venezuela!  Mmmmmmm, what if we're related?  Think of all the fun we could have arguing!


Venezuela for Italians used to be like the USA for the hispanics right now, the land of opportunity.  Venezuelan business people liked Italians because they were hard workers and Italians made good money there for themselves and to send back to their families.  We only came to the US because most of my mother's and father's siblings lived here.  I'm glad we came here considering what is going on in Venezuela currently.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Exactly, PVC.  DIL's mom born in Venezuela, so we call her a Latina!  Only one of their family is still in Venezuela, too stubborn to leave, and he is greatly suffering because of that decision.


----------



## Invictus (Oct 17, 2019)

Religion is on a rapid decline in America and all over the world...The more science and technology advances the more people give up believing in old primitive beliefs.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> That's a disturbing thought.


We're somehow related to apes, too.  Does that make it better?


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Invictus said:


> Religion is on a rapid decline in America and all over the world...The more science and technology advances the more people give up believing in old primitive beliefs.


Oklahoma has many evangelicals, does it not?


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Invictus said:


> Religion is on a rapid decline in America and all over the world...The more science and technology advances the more people give up believing in old primitive beliefs.


Religion loves the uneducated and superstitious, it makes them a blank canvas easily manipulated.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

PVC said:


> Religion loves the uneducated and superstitious, it makes them a blank canvas easily manipulated.


You mean like all children?  Get 'em before they're seven, I think was a saying.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> We're somehow related to apes, too.  Does that make it better?


We share like 99% of genes, you can't get any closer.


----------



## Pepper (Oct 17, 2019)

Love those apes.


----------



## Invictus (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Oklahoma has many evangelicals, does it not?


Yes it does, but even here religion is on a decline and more and more people consider themselves non religious.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Pepper said:


> Love those apes.


I always thought we're closer to gorillas, they remind me of Neantherdals, but we're actually closer to chimpanzees.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Invictus said:


> Yes it does, but even here religion is on a decline and more and more people consider themselves non religious.


All these rich pastors are going to be very upset about that

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/net-worth-richest-pastors-will-blow-your-mind.html/


----------



## Olivia (Oct 17, 2019)

I do think that apes do represent a lot of how humans are now. Apes have their own tribes, fight with other ape tribes, and there's always the alpha males that want all the lady apes and to control everybody else. How different is that from how homosapiens are in our present state of existence?


----------



## Olivia (Oct 17, 2019)

Invictus said:


> Yes it does, but even here religion is on a decline and more and more people consider themselves non religious.



Yes, probably for institutional religion, but humans are still emotional beings as much as we would like us to be totally logical. But frankly, I want us still to be some of both and find other ways to be spiritual in some way--which some folks also equate that to illogical.  Well, I don't. The point of us being emotional beings plus having imaginative minds, will always pull us that way, and it's not a bad thing to have feelings. We are not robots  . . .yet.


----------



## Trade (Oct 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> Yes, probably for institutional religion, but humans are still emotional beings as much as we would like us to be totally logical. But frankly, I want us still to be some of both and find other ways to be spiritual in some way--which some folks also equate that to illogical.  Well, I don't. The point of us being emotional beings plus having imaginative minds, will always pull us that way, and it's not a bad thing to have feelings. We are not robots  . . .yet.



I try to keep an open mind. None of us know what the true nature of the universe is. Not even those really smart dudes like Stephen Hawking and Neil Degrasse Tyson. And we may never know unless maybe ET shows up and clues us in. If that happens I'll bet all of us are in for some big surprises.


----------



## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

Olivia said:


> But frankly, I want us still to be some of both and find other ways to be spiritual in some way--which some folks also equate that to illogical.



I am NOT religious, but I am definitely spiritual.  I get an uplifting glorious feeling when I see beautiful scenery, like the Grand Canyon or Sedona red as if on fire when the sun is setting.  Love nature!


----------



## rgp (Oct 18, 2019)

Pepper said:


> We're somehow related to apes, too.  Does that make it better?




 Exactly, way back, they had nothing else to hold onto, guide them, believe in. Fast forward through to today, and factual evidence of an alternative thought continues to grow. And as is grows.....it produces more positive evidence , of the previous findings.

Back when religion ruled, nothing could be proven , no tangible evidence of the 'stories' told. expectations voiced. Merely stories handed down.


----------



## jerry old (Oct 18, 2019)

I wonder if those of us that are Pro-Christian aren't being a bit hypocritical;  were are not  going to change anybody's opinion by our yammering.
We are to carry the message, not expose it to ridicule.
(yes, I'm being arrogant, I have no excuse.  God did not make me that way, I choose it.)


----------



## Pepper (Oct 18, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> *I wonder if those of us that are Pro-Christian* aren't being a bit hypocritical;  were are not  going to change anybody's opinion by our yammering.
> We are to carry the message, not expose it to ridicule.
> (yes, I'm being arrogant, I have no excuse.  God did not make me that way, I choose it.)


I'm impressed by Lara.  I feel she is being very sincere.  I don't see her as a proselytizer just a person who lives her beliefs and is genuinely expressing them, because that is who she truly is.


----------



## Gary O' (Oct 18, 2019)

Pepper said:


> *I'm impressed by Lara*. I feel she is being very sincere. I don't see her as a proselytizer just a person who lives her beliefs and is genuinely expressing them, because that is who she truly is


Yeah, me too.
I think she's the coolest of ladies.

Heh, I must be some sorta enigmatic amalgam.
I believe in the Christian God, but dislike most Christians and pretty much hate religion and aaaaallllll that comes with it.
Upon being in a church from time to time, I'd often get cornered in an alcove by bible thumpers, and, after demonstrating the patience of Job, I'd sorta explode, expletives and all, so they'd back the eff off.

That forgiveness clause is pretty freaking cool.


----------



## debodun (Oct 26, 2019)

There have been several deaths of prominent members in the last two years. Once they are gone, their families stop attending for some reason. That might be one big cause.


----------



## Capt Lightning (Oct 26, 2019)

Not far from here is the coastal village of Gardenstown (aka Gamrie).  It is a weird place built on steeply sloping ground which ends up at a pleasant harbour.  The village is split geographically and religiously with the older lower village being well established with most properties being holiday lets. The upper part has stylish modern houses where the mainly very evangelical residents live.  For a small village, it has more than it's fair share of churches with vociferous congregations.

Some years ago, a TV programme was based there and featured amongst others, Malcolm McLaren, former manager of the Sex Pistols.  He was run out of town by a lynch mob for amongst other things, calling god a 'sausage'.  Actually sometimes he spoke quite a lot of sense, accepting that long ago when it was busy fishing village, the fishermen would be very religious, but while the industry had progressed,  they had failed to move with the times. 

I was amused one Sunday in summer when the harbour area was busy with people enjoying the sunshine.  Then a group of smartly dressed people appeared outside the harbour master's  office and started to preach.  I've never seen an area clear so quickly.  One minute it was busy and the next it was deserted.  It must have been a pretty powerful sermon, but like the others, we didn't hang around to hear it.


----------

