# Obama "Apologies"?



## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

> Originally Posted by *Misty*
> 
> Do other leaders from other countries, apologize for their country, as our leader does when visiting other countries, or is it just our leader that finds it necessary?



This  gem came from another thread... It's been a favorite talking point on the right for years...  In fact Romney even wrote a book about it..  So I thought I'd take a look to see what they are actually calling apologies..  See if you think they are.. 



*France

*Obama took questions at a town hall meeting in Strasbourg, France, on April 9, 2009. He opened the meeting with remarks on the U.S.-Europe relationship and said that the U.S. and Europe need to work together.



> "Not more than a generation ago, it would have been difficult to imagine that the inability of somebody to pay for a house in Florida could contribute to the failure of the banking system in Iceland. Today, what's difficult to imagine is that we did not act sooner to shape our future. Now, there's plenty of blame to go around for what has happened, and the United States certainly shares blame for what has happened. But every nation bears responsibility for what lies ahead, especially now, for whether it's the recession or climate change, or terrorism, or drug trafficking, poverty, or the proliferation of nuclear weapons, we have learned that without a doubt there's no quarter of the globe that can wall itself off from the threats of the 21st century."



At another point, Obama addressed transatlantic attitudes: 



> "In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive. But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad. On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth. They threaten to widen the divide across the Atlantic and leave us both more isolated."



*England*

During a visit to London in April 2009, Obama answered questions at a press conference. A reporter asked Obama which country was to blame for the financial crisis:



> "I would say that if you look at the sources of this crisis, the United States certainly has some accounting to do with respect to a regulatory system that was inadequate to the massive changes that had taken place in the global financial system."



At another press conference, a reporter said Obama during the campaign had spoken of the "diminished power and authority of the United States over the last decade" and asked if Obama was seeing evidence of that.  



> "Well, first of all, during the campaign I did not say that some of that loss of authority was inevitable," Obama said. "I said it was traced to very specific decisions that the previous administration had made that I believed had lowered our standing in the world.  And that wasn't simply my opinion; that was, it turns out, the opinion of many people around the world. I would like to think that with my election and the early decisions that we've made, that you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world.  And although, as you know, I always mistrust polls, international polls seem to indicate that you're seeing people more hopeful about America's leadership."



*Turkey*

Obama gave a major address to the Turkish parliament in April that seemed to be largely a diplomatic outreach to an Islamic ally and to the Islamic world at large.



> "I know there have been difficulties these last few years. I know that the trust that binds the United States and Turkey has been strained, and I know that strain is shared in many places where the Muslim faith is practiced. So let me say this as clearly as I can: The United States is not, and will never be, at war with Islam."



He also said this:



> "Every challenge that we face is more easily met if we tend to our own democratic foundation. This work is never over. That's why, in the United States, we recently ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. That's why we prohibited -- without exception or equivocation -- the use of torture. All of us have to change. And sometimes change is hard. Another issue that confronts all democracies as they move to the future is how we deal with the past. The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history. Facing the Washington Monument that I spoke of is a memorial of Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed those who were enslaved even after Washington led our Revolution. Our country still struggles with the legacies of slavery and segregation, the past treatment of Native Americans. Human endeavor is by its nature imperfect. History is often tragic, but unresolved, it can be a heavy weight. Each country must work through its past."



*Cairo*

The Obama administration billed a speech in Cairo on June 4, 2009, as a major diplomatic outreach to the Islamic world. 



> "Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country.  The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals.  We are taking concrete actions to change course.  I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year. ...
> 
> "In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government.  Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians.  This history is well known.  Rather than remain trapped in the past, I've made it clear to Iran's leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward."



*CIA headquarters in Langley, Va.*

On April 20, 2009, Obama visited the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency in Langley, Va. Much of his brief remarks were thanking the CIA officers for their work. But he visited them not long after his administration released records on brutal interrogation tactics. Whether those methods met the legal definition of torture is one thing; they certainly met the common usage definition, "to cause intense suffering." Obama's visit was seen as a move to reassure the agency's staff.



> "Don't be discouraged that we have to acknowledge potentially we've made some mistakes. That's how we learn. But the fact that we are willing to acknowledge them and then move forward, that is precisely why I am proud to be President of the United States, and that's why you should be proud to be members of the CIA."



*The National Archives in Washington, D.C.*

Obama used the setting of the National Archives to discuss his thoughts on fighting terrorism, particularly about how terror suspects should be tried. During the speech, Obama said he intended to keep some prisoners in indefinite detention. 



> "After 9/11, we knew that we had entered a new era -- that enemies who did not abide by any law of war would present new challenges to our application of the law; that our government would need new tools to protect the American people, and that these tools would have to allow us to prevent attacks instead of simply prosecuting those who try to carry them out.
> 
> "Unfortunately, faced with an uncertain threat, our government made a series of hasty decisions. I believe that many of these decisions were motivated by a sincere desire to protect the American people. But I also believe that all too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight; that all too often our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions. Instead of strategically applying our power and our principles, too often we set those principles aside as luxuries that we could no longer afford. And during this season of fear, too many of us -- Democrats and Republicans, politicians, journalists, and citizens -- fell silent.
> 
> ...



*United Nations General Assembly*

Obama addressed the United Nations General Assembly on Sept. 23, 2009, in New York City. Obama urged countries to work together under the auspices of the UN to address issues such as terrorism, nuclear proliferation, climate change and economic development. Obama also used the speech to discuss his actions since taking office only nine months before.



> "I took office at a time when many around the world had come to view America with skepticism and distrust.  Part of this was due to misperceptions and misinformation about my country.  Part of this was due to opposition to specific policies, and a belief that on certain critical issues, America has acted unilaterally, without regard for the interests of others.  And this has fed an almost reflexive anti-Americanism, which too often has served as an excuse for collective inaction. ...
> 
> " For those who question the character and cause of my nation, I ask you to look at the concrete actions we have taken in just nine months.
> On my first day in office, I prohibited -- without exception or equivocation -- the use of torture by the United States of America. I ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed, and we are doing the hard work of forging a framework to combat extremism within the rule of law.  Every nation must know: America will live its values, and we will lead by example. ..."
> ...




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mitt-romney/obama-remarks-never-true-apology/

But as we looked over Obama's remarks, we noticed that he never used the word that is the universal hallmark of apologies: "sorry." Merriam-Webster defines an apology as "an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret." If someone is apologizing, it seems that is a discrete act that can be verified and fact-checked. We set out to discover how accurate Romney was in describing Obama as constantly apologizing. 











[h=3][/h]


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## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

The facts matter not to those who want to cast their hatred for this President, but you'll notice when pressed for a reason, none is forthcoming, it's pure hatred.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

All of the instances shown came directly from Mitt Romney's book titled "No Apology"  and were part of his failed campaign strategy  in 2012.   Does anything in any of the examples look like an apology for anything?   Not to me... they look like an intelligent assessment of the difficult world situation... and not the rantings of  a war mongering, chest thumping blowhard.. as our previous President and his side-kicks.    I think some folks, not bothering to find out what was REALLY said are just eager to buy into the talking point without the benefit of any real thought or research.


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## drifter (Apr 22, 2015)

All the President is saying we've got one world and we've got to work together to get along. The right has never liked this president and when they can't find something to blame him for they make it up. He sounds like a reasonable man to me.


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## Glinda (Apr 22, 2015)

Thanks, QS, for compiling the research necessary to refute their lies.


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## Misty (Apr 22, 2015)

I did not read about Mitt Romney's book....and from what you posted above, your examples do not show Pres. Obama saying "I'm sorry", instead what he is doing is criticizing the U.S, such as in the first example, he mentioned Europe's leading role in the world, and then criticizes us by calling us arrogant, dismissive and derisive. 

In the rest of those speaches are mentioned some other criticism's of America. When he was running for office and gave a speech in Germany, he mentioned that we have made our share of mistakes, and his country has not perfected itself, and that our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.

I have not heard, unless I missed it, other leaders of their countries, criticize their country to Obama, while giving speeches.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 22, 2015)

I don't see it as criticizing... I see it as him being realistic, and not an arrogant blowhard like Bush, who made the rest of the world hate our guts. 

As for other leaders of other countries.... I don't know if they do or not.. ...because I'm not multi-lingual...   I don't listen to all their speeches... Do you?   So "not hearing" them means nothing... Unless you have followed them, how do you know?


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## BobF (Apr 22, 2015)

That is sort of new news to me that the rest of the world hates the US.   And I never new that Bush caused all that hate either.   During Bush's years we sent our military into two areas with the UN's support in Afghanistan from the beginning and with UN's support after the invasion had begun in Iraq.   A number of countries went along with us on both occasions and it was a British General that said it was right for a coalition to enter Iraq on the second time without new permissions because Iraq had broken the agreements they surrendered to the first time a UN approve attack was made.

So it was not just Bush that made that decision.      Best to put hate away and look for facts.
.................................
An English General that totally dislikes G Bush said the extension of the Iraq war was legitimate after 10 years of Saddam's defiance of the UN and the surrender terms.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1561891/Gen-Sir-Mike-Jackson-attacks-US-over-Iraq.html

Sir Mike says he satisfied himself on the legality of invading Iraq by careful study of the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and concluded that action was "legitimate under international law without a 'second' resolution


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 22, 2015)

President Obama wasn't apologizing or criticizing from all I've heard, just being realistic.  The apology attack...http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/08/31/krauthammer-urges-gop-to-attack-obama-using-rid/182633



"The claim that Obama repeatedly has apologized for the United States is not borne out by the facts, especially if his full quotes are viewed in context.


Obama often was trying to draw a rhetorical distinction between his policies and that of President Bush, a common practice when the presidency changes parties. 

The shift in policies, in fact, might have been more dramatic from Clinton to Bush than from Bush to Obama, given how Obama has largely maintained Bush's approach to fighting terrorism.


In other cases, Obama's quotes have been selectively trimmed for political purposes.

 Or they were not much different than sentiments expressed by Bush or his secretary of state.

 Republicans may certainly disagree with Obama's handling of foreign policy or particular policies he has pursued, but they should not invent a storyline that does not appear to exist.


Note to GOP speechwriters and campaign ad makers: The apology tour never happened. [_The Washington Post_, The Fact Checker, 2/22/11]"


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## Misty (Apr 22, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I don't see it as criticizing... I see it as him being realistic, and not an arrogant blowhard like Bush, who made the rest of the world hate our guts.
> 
> As for other leaders of other countries.... I don't know if they do or not.. ...because I'm not multi-lingual...   I don't listen to all their speeches... Do you?   So "not hearing" them means nothing... Unless you have followed them, how do you know?



I watch quite a few speeches from Foreign leaders who visit the White House, and also read articles on Foreign Leaders speeches, and have not seen or heard them criticize their country or as you mentioned, being realistic about their countries faults.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 22, 2015)

Misty said:


> I watch quite a few speeches from Foreign leaders who visit the White House, and also read articles on Foreign Leaders speeches, and have not seen or heard them criticize their country or as you mentioned, being realistic about their countries faults.



Then that makes us candid and honest.  It is not a sign of weakness as you seem to think for us to make diplomatic overtures when speaking to foreign heads of state.  We have always admitted mistakes, exposed failures to the world.  It's one of the high water marks of a free and open society.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> That is sort of new news to me that the rest of the world hates the US.   And I never new that Bush caused all that hate either.   During Bush's years we sent our military into two areas with the UN's support in Afghanistan from the beginning and with UN's support after the invasion had begun in Iraq.   A number of countries went along with us on both occasions and it was a British General that said it was right for a coalition to enter Iraq on the second time without new permissions because Iraq had broken the agreements they surrendered to the first time a UN approve attack was made.
> 
> So it was not just Bush that made that decision.      Best to put hate away and look for facts.
> .................................
> ...



After 911 the rest of the world empathised with the US, waving American flags in the UK and other countries.  But it turned to hate when Bush went into Iraq misleading the American public by insinuating Iraq was responsible for 911 - in fact many Americans still think that.  All that rubbish about hating France for not agreeing to go to war and using the term 'freedom fries' instead of French fries made Americans look like idiots, just like Bush.  

Tony Blair is still being bashed for going into that war with Bush and has been called his poodle.  Too bad.  I really liked Blair.  Labour candidates running for office right now really don't want him to give his support for them, that's how unpopular he is. 

And you are totally blind if you don't see how much anti-Americanism there is in the world.  But of course I'm banging my head against a brick wall to reply to you.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

So are you denying that the British General was inspiring others to go after the non caring leader of Iraq after more than 10 years of his torturing and attempting to create nuclear items and such in disguise of other actions, including building rockets larger than allowed.   Saddam was a danger to the area and most new it prior to the second invasion.

It is OK to have truth and facts about events even when it is not what a person would like to hear.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> So are you denying that the British General was inspiring others to go after the non caring leader of Iraq after more than 10 years of his torturing and attempting to create nuclear items and such in disguise of other actions, including building rockets larger than allowed.   Saddam was a danger to the area and most new it prior to the second invasion.
> 
> It is OK to have truth and facts about events even when it is not what a person would like to hear.



Would love some links proving the existence of "disguised nuclear items and giant rockets"..    Truth and facts must be proven..  Give it a try.


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> President Obama wasn't apologizing or criticizing from all I've heard, just being realistic.  The apology attack...http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/08/31/krauthammer-urges-gop-to-attack-obama-using-rid/182633
> 
> 
> "The claim that Obama repeatedly has apologized for the United States is not borne out by the facts, especially if his full quotes are viewed in context.
> ...



No disrespect to you, Seabreeze, but I think of what President Obama has  said about our country as an apology tour too. It looks to me as if the  President is apologizing for our arrogance, dismissiveness, our darker  periods, being disengaged, dictating our terms, making mistakes, hasty  decisions, fear based decisions, trimming facts and evidence, set our  principles aside and went off course. Those were the words that the  President used to describe us to other countries, that were listed in QuickSilver's post. We will just have to  agree to disagree.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

I still fail to see how admitting ones mistakes and owning up to them is synonymous with an apology...But then again, I've always seen that as a sign of strength... not weakness.     BUT... you are entitled to believe what you want.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Would love some links proving the existence of "disguised nuclear items and giant rockets"..    Truth and facts must be proven..  Give it a try.



I can likely do that for you with not much effort.   But why don't you do that for yourself and  enrich your knowledge of our past.   And then you can admit some of your mistakes and show your strength.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> I can likely do that for you with not much effort.   But why don't you do that for yourself and  enrich your knowledge of our past.   And then you can admit some of your mistakes and show your strength.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> I can likely do that for you with not much effort.   But why don't you do that for yourself and  enrich your knowledge of our past.   And then you can admit some of your mistakes and show your strength.



Nice try.  You have been challenged to back up your claims.  It's not her job to support your argument, it's YOURS!  Unless you do, I call bullshit!


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> After 911 the rest of the world empathised with the US, waving American flags in the UK and other countries.  But it turned to hate when Bush went into Iraq misleading the American public by insinuating Iraq was responsible for 911 - in fact many Americans still think that.
> And you are totally blind if you don't see how much anti-Americanism there is in the world.



You're right about 9/11 Ameriscot, an Iraq invasion started by Bush under false pretenses, and yes, many Americans are either ignorant of that fact or in denial.  



Misty said:


> It looks to me as if the  President is apologizing for our arrogance, dismissiveness, our darker  periods, being disengaged, dictating our terms, making mistakes, hasty  decisions, fear based decisions, trimming facts and evidence, set our  principles aside and went off course.  We will just have to  agree to disagree.



You're right Misty, we disagree and that's okay.  Many people take our stands on this on both sides of the aisle.  I don't see it as apologizing, and for the President of the United States to publically acknowledge our arrogance, poor decisions and acting as a dictatorship, to me (and many others) is refreshing.  I'm happy to see a change from the attitudes of Bush and Cheney.  I think we did set our principles aside and go off course, and if we don't get back on course soon, some people will get another war like they're itching for, maybe WWIII.


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Then that makes us candid and honest.  It is not a sign of weakness as you seem to think for us to make diplomatic overtures when speaking to foreign heads of state.  We have always admitted mistakes, exposed failures to the world.  It's one of the high water marks of a free and open society.



Thanks for your thoughts, and I respect your opinion, AZ Jim. My opinion is different, and I don't look on what the President has said about our country as weakness, I think other countries would think better of us, if we talked about the good things about our country. If I met someone and they kept talking about their faults, it wouldn't make me like them better. 

I prefer a President that shows pride in our country, and feels we are exceptional too, as Pres. Obama feels that Europe is the leader of the world, I would like him to feel the same about us. I think all countries should see themselves as exceptional, except the countries that kill their own people, or behead them etc.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Would love some links proving the existence of "disguised nuclear items and giant rockets"..    Truth and facts must be proven..  Give it a try.



I know it's off topic, but your sentence brought this to mind.  http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/files/War Crimes Report.pdf


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> Thanks for your thoughts, and I respect your opinion, Art. My opinion is different, and I don't look on what the President has said about our country as weakness, I think other countries would think better of us, if we talked about the good things about our country. If I met someone and they kept talking about their faults, it wouldn't make me like them better.
> 
> I prefer a President that shows pride in our country, and feels we are exceptional too, as Pres. Obama feels that Europe is the leader of the world, I would like him to feel the same about us. I think all countries should see themselves as exceptional, except the countries that kill their own people, or behead them etc.



Whose "Art"?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I know it's off topic, but your sentence brought this to mind.  http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/files/War Crimes Report.pdf




WOW..   In 1967 I was 18 and this wasn't on my radar then.    Israel?   Really?   




> On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters





> 2 in the Eastern Mediterranean
> Sea, USS
> _Liberty _(AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification
> by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.
> ...



authorities,


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> Thanks for your thoughts, and I respect your opinion, Art. My opinion is different, and I don't look on what the President has said about our country as weakness, I think other countries would think better of us, if we talked about the good things about our country. If I met someone and they kept talking about their faults, it wouldn't make me like them better.
> 
> I prefer a President that shows pride in our country, and feels we are exceptional too, as Pres. Obama feels that Europe is the leader of the world, I would like him to feel the same about us. I think all countries should see themselves as exceptional, except the countries that kill their own people, or behead them etc.



Whose "Art"? Not sure where the "President thinks Europe is leader of the world" came from.  I prefer we not project our smugness or arrogance to the rest of the world.


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Whose "Art"? Not sure where the "President thinks Europe is leader of the world" came from.  I prefer we not project our smugness or arrogance to the rest of the world.



I apologize for getting your name wrong, AZ, and I corrected it.  I have no idea why I thought your name was Art.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Nice try.  You have been challenged to back up your claims.  It's not her job to support your argument, it's YOURS!  Unless you do, I call bullshit!



Your comment just shows your arrogance and defense of the other poster as she has shown laziness to support her charges or to look for more honest comments than what she has posted.   Speak of challenges and she is the first to ignore a challenge, not me.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> WOW..   In 1967 I was 18 and this wasn't on my radar then.    Israel?   Really?



Yes, our good friend and ally, the ones who stole plutonium from us and hid their nuclear program from us.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> I apologize for getting your name wrong, AZ, and I corrected it.  I have no idea why I thought your name was Art.



Not a problem.  I maintain however that the willingness to project us as honest and not arrogant is a sign of strength, not weakness.  I can't change your mind and I guarantee you won't change mine, Misty.


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Whose "Art"? Not sure where the "President thinks Europe is leader of the world" came from.  I prefer we not project our smugness or arrogance to the rest of the world.



In the Town Hall Meeting in France, that QuickSilver posted in this thread, AZ Jim, the President said " In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world."


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

That is a far cry from "Europe is the world leader".


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

OK Madam Lazy, here is one example of several.   You can find truth about Iraq if you really try.   It does take a bit more energy than  just sitting there and saying others are totally wrong with their posts.   Give truth a try, it is easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

[h=1]Operation Opera[/h] 						 									From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Operation Opera* (Hebrew: אופרה‎),[SUP][1][/SUP] also known as *Operation Babylon*,[SUP][2][/SUP] was a surprise Israeli air strike carried out on 7 June 1981, which destroyed an Iraqi nuclear reactor under construction 17 kilometers (10.5 miles) southeast of Baghdad.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] The operation came after Iran's unsuccessful Operation Scorch Sword  operation had caused minor damage to the same nuclear facility the  previous year, but had subsequently been repaired by French technicians.  Operation Opera, and related Israeli government statements following  it, established the Begin Doctrine,  which explicitly stated the strike was not an anomaly, but instead “a  precedent for every future government in Israel.” Israel's counter-proliferation preventive strike added another dimension to their existing policy of deliberate ambiguity, as it related to the nuclear capability of other states in the region.[SUP][6][/SUP]


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Yes, our good friend and ally, the ones who stole plutonium from us and hid their nuclear program from us.



There is  no true evidence that the Israeli's stole from the US plant and some how managed to get large packages out of the plant in radiation free containers and shipped clear around to Israel.   Time for fact and such that may actually show the US allowed this to happen and it was not stolen at all, if it even happened.

http://thebulletin.org/did-israel-steal-bomb-grade-uranium-united-states7056

04/17/2014 - 22:10
*Did Israel steal bomb-grade uranium from the United States?*

Victor GilinskyRoger J. Mattson



(Closing paragraphs)

*Time for real transparency. *It's fair to ask, in  view of the other losses in the US nuclear weapons complex, why the CIA  and others singled out NUMEC for grave suspicion as the source for  Israeli bomb-grade uranium. In brief, the reasons are these: NUMEC's  unexplained losses were a significantly larger proportion of its  throughput of highly enriched uranium than was the case for other firms  that dealt with nuclear materials. Sloppy accounting and lax security  made the plant easy to rob without detection. NUMEC had commercial  relationships with Israel’s defense and nuclear establishments and  regularly made sizeable nuclear shipments to Israel, which at that time  were not checked by the AEC. NUMEC’s owners and executives had extremely  close ties to Israel, including to high Israeli intelligence and  nuclear officials. Israel had strong motives to obtain the highly  enriched uranium before it was producing enough plutonium for weapons.  High-level Israeli intelligence operatives visited the NUMEC plant.  Israeli intelligence organizations were used to running logistically  complicated, risky operations to support nuclear weapons development,  and it would have been very much out of character for them to pass up an  opportunity like this. On top of all this, records show the CIA  believed its 1968 environmental sample taken in Israel evidenced an  enrichment level unique to Portsmouth.

Nearly 50 years have passed  since the events in question. It is time to level with the public. At  this point it is up to the president himself to decide whether to  declassify completely the NUMEC documents, all of which are over 30  years old. He should do so. We know that is asking a lot given the  president’s sensitivity about anything involving Israel, and especially  anything relating to Israeli nuclear weapons. But none of his political  concerns outweigh his responsibility to tell the US public the  historical truth it deserves to know.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Your comment just shows your arrogance and defense of the other poster as she has shown laziness to support her charges or to look for more honest comments than what she has posted.   Speak of challenges and she is the first to ignore a challenge, not me.



Oh STOP..... You are embarrassing yourself..


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> In the Town Hall Meeting in France, that QuickSilver posted in this thread, AZ Jim, the President said " In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world."




So Europe DOESN'T have a leading role in the world?   And shouldn't we appreciate it?  I'm not sure what you see wrong with this..


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> Yes, our good friend and ally, the ones who stole plutonium from us and hid their nuclear program from us.




Amazing...  and now they are wanting us to go to war with Iran for exactly what they did..


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Whose "Art"? Not sure where the "President thinks Europe is leader of the world" came from.  I prefer we not project our smugness or arrogance to the rest of the world.



Yes, one of the reasons for anti-Americanism in the rest of the world is that arrogance - the we're better than anybody else.  And why do so many Americans think they are the _only _country with freedom of speech?!


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So Europe DOESN'T have a leading role in the world?   And shouldn't we appreciate it?  I'm not sure what you see wrong with this..



I was just answering AZJim's question, but in my earlier post, QuickSilver, I mentioned that I would like the Pres to feel the same about us too. I personally didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world, until Pres. Obama mentioned it in his speech.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> I was just answering AZJim's question, but in my earlier post, QuickSilver, I mentioned that I would like the Pres to feel the same about us too. *I personally didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world,* until Pres. Obama mentioned it in his speech.



Really?!


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> I was just answering AZJim's question, but in my earlier post, QuickSilver, I mentioned that I would like the Pres to feel the same about us too. I personally didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world, until Pres. Obama mentioned it in his speech.



You didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world?  I'm sure that all the people in Europe would confirm it.  AND HOW does acknowledging that Europe has a leading role in the world make us have LESS of a leading role?


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Really?!



Didn't mean that in an arrogant way, Ameriscot....I thought we were all doing our part, and didn't know Europe was being highlighted as leading the way, until Pres. Obama mentioned it, unless other countries are saying the same thing, and I missed it.


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world?  I'm sure that all the people in Europe would confirm it.  AND HOW does acknowledging that Europe has a leading role in the world make us have LESS of a leading role?



As I mentioned to Ameriscot, no I didn't know Europe had a leading role, I thought we were all doing our part in the world.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> Didn't mean that in an arrogant way, Ameriscot....I thought we were all doing our part, and didn't know Europe was being highlighted as leading the way, until Pres. Obama mentioned it, unless other countries are saying the same thing, and I missed it.



Your paraphrasing is the problem.  He said "a world leader", not THE world leader and it IS.  See, Misty, that is the problem many are picking ever single thing he says and making of it things not contained in his words.  It's called dislike, hatred, racism, anti-Democrat etal depending on who is doing the "nit picking".


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## Misty (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Your paraphrasing is the problem.  He said "a world leader", not THE world leader and it IS.  See, Misty, that is the problem many are picking ever single thing he says and making of it things not contained in his words.  It's called dislike, hatred, racism, anti-Democrat etal depending on who is doing the "nit picking".



What he said AZ Jim was  "In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." I didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world, I thought we were all working together in the world, each doing our parts to help make the world a better place for all.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Misty said:


> What he said AZ Jim was  "In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." I didn't know Europe had a leading role in the world, I thought we were all working together in the world, each doing our parts to help make the world a better place for all.



Misty, A leading role!!!!!!  Nitpick all you must, but it doesn't make him say what he didn't say.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Misty, A leading role!!!!!!  Nitpick all you must, but it doesn't make him say what he didn't say.



But Jim...  they want so badly to believe it..  it hurts


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> But Jim...  they want so badly to believe it..  it hurts



I know, I know but I can't allow it.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

What a bunch of nit picking dummies we have here.   The US would be a lot better off if we could go back to the way it was prior to the 1970's when POLITICAL PARTY was a much smaller item in discussions.   We need to do that again and get our country back to working as the Constitution says and just forget party this and party that directing our voting.   We should all vote our own personal ways and not because some not truly a official voting source tells us to vote a certain way.   That is probably the most destructive thing happening to the US these days.   I have said this before on this forum, we need to get the "party" for each candidate off the official ballots.   Let people vote for the persons and not for the "party".    Then we might get some better people elected.   Restricting lengths of service might also help as shorter terms might bring us younger and better Senators and Representatives.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> What a bunch of nit picking *dummies* we have here.   The US would be a lot better off if we could go back to the way it was prior to the 1970's when POLITICAL PARTY was a much smaller item in discussions.   We need to do that again and get our country back to working as the Constitution says and just forget party this and party that directing our voting.   We should all vote our own personal ways and not because some not truly a official voting source tells us to vote a certain way.   That is probably the most destructive thing happening to the US these days.   I have said this before on this forum, we need to get the "party" for each candidate off the official ballots.   Let people vote for the persons and not for the "party".    Then we might get some better people elected.   Restricting lengths of service might also help as shorter terms might bring us younger and better Senators and Representatives.



Name calling again, BF?


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Name calling again, BF?




I just think it's funny when he, of all people, call any of us, dummies.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Name calling again, BF?



Well, I was just describing how I feel about some of the responses.   If it became personal, then maybe think about why?

And for sure no more personal that what has been shoved at those others on this forum.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Well, I was just describing how I feel about some of the responses.   If it became personal, then maybe think about why?



Oh, I'll be up all night worrying about that.  Why oh why is BF calling us dummies?!


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Oh, I'll be up all night worrying about that.  Why oh why is BF calling us dummies?!



Me too....  I'm sure I'll not sleep a wink...   I'll be pacing the floors.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Me too....  I'm sure I'll not sleep a wink...   I'll be pacing the floors.



I'd better make myself another G & T to calm me down. :eek1:


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I'd better make myself another G & T to calm me down. :eek1:



Ya know... I was just thinking about that nice bottle of wine I've saved..  See BOB... you are driving us to drink.. :very_drunk:


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

I am just in awe at his well articulated, meticulously researched and informative posts.  I make daily notes about knowing him "when" to pass on to my heirs.  Off to my liquor cabinet.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I am just in awe at his well articulated, meticulously researched and informative posts.  I make daily notes about knowing him "when" to pass on to my heirs.  Off to my liquor cabinet.



Perhaps we should compile an anthology and have it published.  ?


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Here was another series of stupid comments.   Yet you folks pretend it is me being wrong.

Yes, you all should double down on your alcohol intake.   It will certainly make your thinking and post much more clearer.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

This is more fun than whack a mole.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

:givemebeer::cheers1:


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> :givemebeer::cheers1:



Here's lookin at you, Kid....


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

You like personal attacks on others and so do your friends.   What is the purpose anyway.   Still trying to drive other thinkers off this forum so you can have your own applauding pad where only same thinkers can come on and tell each other how smart you are.   I heard that challenge from one of the ones that had been on this forum much longer than I have.   Sort of a self love club and any others will get put down and challenged to shut up.   Very much a short minded bunch it seems to be doing this.   What do you thing AZ Jim?    Just a bunch of short minded folks for sure hunh Jim?

For sure I am not a far left Democrat, also known as socialist or communist.   Nor am I a far right Republican that has strange ideas of limited government.    I am more like the Democrats and Republicans of earlier years where the ideas were much closer together.   Wish we were closer to those days and actually reduced parties to dam little for either side, more like it once was.

Why do you folks think it is so important to put down those that do not think just the same as you folks do?   Opposing opinions is all that makes elections so important for all of us.   The ability to choose a candidate that thinks closer to the way we think.   I would like to see our government work withing our capabilities and not run up horrendous debts or $10 trillion as our current government has already done and no evidence that he is done wasting our money on invisible things.

OK, now how do I judge this person Obama.    I would judge him very well on his person and personality for wife and family.   For his caring for the US I say he has done very poorly as he has not allowed the Congress to do their part at all.   He has set up separate groups that establish rules and they have no Congressional oversight of passing or refusing to pass.   He set up the Obama care with a close Congress that put together the sketch for a complete plan, but the plan was later put together by off sight groups.   The vote to pass the outline first looked to fail but they did not close the vote at closing time.   They held the vote open and lots of private pressure was put on those reluctant and their votes changed.   This went on till they had enough votes and then they closed and cheered their victory.   All they passed that night was some many pages with only titles and goals on them, nothing designed to work.   Sure should be proud of that nothing event I suppose.

OK, person OK, President a big question mark but often driven political drive and not necessarily something that works.    And so far it is barely working.    We really need a good economical review of how much it is costing each citizen and how much national debt it is creating.    No more of this hidden cost and value nonsense that is tossed about so freely.   Show us all the facts.   

There you go.   Plenty to think about.    It is all good input.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

It took only seconds to read and I found nothing of substance to "think" about.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

There you go AZ Jim, a good example of stupidity.   Thank you for your effort.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

:yawning:


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Oh my, it looks like some of you consider me to be a gang bang.    So you all take turn jumping in.   Must be transmitted stupidity.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> There you go AZ Jim, a good example of stupidity.   Thank you for your effort.



Why do you need to call me stupid?


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Oh my, it looks like some of you consider me to be a gang bang.    So you all take turn jumping in.   Must be transmitted stupidity.



I've considered you  a lot of things Bob... but NEVER a gang  bang...


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Why do you need to call me stupid?



Because it makes him feels superior.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Because it makes him feels superior.



Not at all.   I prefer a friendly forum where all can post without these personal attacks.   I am just following the style of a certain nasty group of members here.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Not at all.   I prefer a friendly forum where all can post without these personal attacks.   I am just following the style of a certain nasty group of members here.




The ONLY personal attacks in this thread are by YOU.  No one else has name called, just YOU.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Not at all.   I prefer a friendly forum where all can post without these personal attacks.   I am just following the style of a certain nasty group of members here.



Good grief Bob..  You say you prefer a friendly forum... yet I have NEVER seen you post anywhere but in political threads with an obvious chip on your shoulder.  What the hell do you expect, when you come at people the way you do?  Hearts and flowers?    Perhaps if you took the time to get off your high horse and get to know people and stop being so darn nasty  you wouldn't be received the way you are..  Every think about THAT?


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim and QS, you both seem to think the trash you two post is OK and when I copy your style in response I am guilty of all trash on the forum.   That is just how wrong you both are.   In a freindly forum there would be none of this personal trash and only be a few.   There are others on this forum of various persuasions that do not offer personal attacks on each other.   Look into the mirrors before you toss off these personal attacks.  Plenty of topics can go by without resorting to personal attacks.

And what I posted earlier this threas I did not consider them to be personal attacks at all.   I posted links to a couple of articles and nothing personal in them to offend anyone at all.   Maybe some personal ideas were challenged but not any personal insults.   Often I never post any names but still some say I have made personal insults.   They must be living with overwhelming feelings of guilt.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> AZ Jim and QS, you both seem to think the trash you two post is OK and when I copy your style in response I am guilty of all trash on the forum.   That is just how wrong you both are.   In a freindly forum there would be none of this personal trash and only be a few.   There are others on this forum of various persuasions that do not offer personal attacks on each other.   Look into the mirrors before you toss off these personal attacks.  Plenty of topics can go by without resorting to personal attacks.



I repeat, ONLY YOU have made any PERSONAL attacks.  Do others refute your posts, yes.  Do I consider your posts just political noise, yes.  BUT personal attacks, ONLY YOU.


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The ONLY personal attacks in this thread are by YOU.  No one else has name called, just YOU.



Outrageous lie.   Your opinion and not a fact.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 23, 2015)

Stupid and Dummies.  You called me and others both of those in this thread. Show me the lie.  Show where anyone else called you personally any name.


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## Ameriscot (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Outrageous lie.   Your opinion and not a fact.



Fact: you are the only one who has been name calling.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Stupid and Dummies.  You called me and others both of those in this thread. Show me the lie.  Show where anyone else called you personally any name.



and don't forget "Madam Lazy"




> OK Madam Lazy, here is one example of several. You can find truth about Iraq if you really try. It does take a bit more energy than just sitting there and saying others are totally wrong with their posts. Give truth a try, it is easy.



So I defy you to answer  BOB... other than disagreeing with you.. what names have YOU been called?


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Why do you even bother to call folks post bad, or wrong, why bother at all.   Just post what you think is your better idea and leave all your nastiness go away.   You are far worse that AZ Jim.   At least with him I get a feeling of knowledge, a bit more than just your superior nonsense you love to use.   Put downs are not evidence of wisdom at all.   Now that I have been using your style of put downs I get a ration of nonsense about my posts but never see your trash posts get attacked by anyone.  Maybe that is why a few have put messages under my name and say there are some really sour faced and imposible folks that insist we must not post and never say their posts are no good.    I was told I would get trashed pretty bad.   Well, you and a few others are trying, but you have not smothered me with any honesty yet.

It is fair for all of us to post our opinions but not to trash out other posters as so often happens by a few on this forum.   I should not call you lazy and won't if you do half of what you demand of others when there is difference of opinion.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Why do you even bother to call folks post bad, or wrong, why bother at all.   Just post what you think is your better idea and leave all your nastiness go away.   You are far worse that AZ Jim.   At least with him I get a feeling of knowledge, a bit more than just your superior nonsense you love to use.   Put downs are not evidence of wisdom at all.   Now that I have been using your style of put downs I get a ration of nonsense about my posts but never see your trash posts get attacked by anyone.  Maybe that is why a few have put messages under my name and say there are some really sour faced and imposible folks that insist we must not post and never say their posts are no good.    I was told I would get trashed pretty bad.   Well, you and a few others are trying, but you have not smothered me with any honesty yet.
> 
> It is fair for all of us to post our opinions but not to trash out other posters as so often happens by a few on this forum.   I should not call you lazy and won't if you do half of what you demand of others when there is difference of opinion.



You poor thing...  I'll not engage you..  I didn't realize you were ill.   I'm sorry


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## BobF (Apr 23, 2015)

Now there is a good example of your way of showing your superior putdowns.   I am not sick. ill, at all.  Just been warned there would be folks like you on this forum.   Sure enough there are some not so willing to share the forum with those that think differently about our world and surroundings.

I bet you never have read my good comments about Obama as you just don't have time for nice things.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

BobF said:


> Now there is a good example of your way of showing your superior putdowns.   I am not sick. ill, at all.  Just been warned there would be folks like you on this forum.   Sure enough there are some not so willing to share the forum with those that think differently about our world and surroundings.
> 
> I bet you never have read my good comments about Obama as you just don't have time for nice things.



Yes dear....  maybe you should go lie down.


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## mitchezz (Apr 23, 2015)

Comedians of the world mourned when George Dubya retired. He was a huge joke Dowunder............a bit like our present PM...........nah....ours is funnier.


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## Shalimar (Apr 23, 2015)

I still don't understand the gang bang reference, does it have a different meaning stateside, than in Canuckistan?


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## ~Lenore (Apr 23, 2015)

*The ignore feature is a real blessing on this section of Senior Forums. 
You might enjoy trying it.*


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## ~Lenore (Apr 24, 2015)

*I would like to say, "You're welcome" to those of you who have thanked me for suggesting the ignore feature.  *


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2015)

The ignore feature is not new, but it is handy.


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## merlin (Apr 24, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes dear....  maybe you should go lie down.



I think I need to lie down QuickSilver after reading this thread, I haven't laughed so much in a long time, :lofl: I ache now and need a beer and a rest. Thanks to all, with a special mention to Jim, for such an illuminating and at the same time humorous thread!!!


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## ~Lenore (Apr 24, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The ignore feature is not new, but it is handy.




*I know, Jim, but not everyone automatically knows about it.  *


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks Merlin....'appreciate it.


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## Shalimar (Apr 24, 2015)

Hmmmm.


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmmm.



??????????????


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## Shalimar (Apr 24, 2015)

On occasion, this forum is more entertaining than pay per view. Welcome  to the fights SF style. Verbal MMA at it's finest. We should have weight classes, serve beer...


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## AZ Jim (Apr 24, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> On occasion, this forum is more entertaining than pay per view. Welcome  to the fights SF style. Verbal MMA at it's finest. We should have weight classes, serve beer...



Shhhhhhhhh you'll waken the demons.


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## Shalimar (Apr 24, 2015)

Jim, they never sleep, there is no rest for the wicked, I know!


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