# Columbus Does Not Discover America



## Underock1 (Aug 22, 2015)

Neither do any other Europeans. Rewrite American history as you would have it.


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## chic (Aug 23, 2015)

If Columbus does not discover America, the Native Americans are free to rule until the Japanese decide to cross the Berring Strait, travel down through Alaska and Canada into California where they are challenged by the Mexicans for supremacy in North America. They (the Mexicans) do a deal where The Japanese take Northern CA and the Mexicans take Southern CA and there's a wholly frijole time at the taco stand cum sushi bar. They intermarry, build railroads, establish farms and ranches until they eventually reach New York where everyone settles happily except the Native Americans who continue to war with each other until only two tribes remain. They join up eventually with the Mexicans because they love the siestas and the Japanese work too damned hard anyway and who understands all that electronics mumbo jumbo.

Sorry to take the light hearted approach here, but I'm not sure what was required.


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## Shalimar (Aug 23, 2015)

I think the First Peoples might argue that America/Canada were not lost.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

chic said:


> If Columbus does not discover America, the Native Americans are free to rule until the Japanese decide to cross the Berring Strait, travel down through Alaska and Canada into California where they are challenged by the Mexicans for supremacy in North America. They (the Mexicans) do a deal where The Japanese take Northern CA and the Mexicans take Southern CA and there's a wholly frijole time at the taco stand cum sushi bar. They intermarry, build railroads, establish farms and ranches until they eventually reach New York where everyone settles happily except the Native Americans who continue to war with each other until only two tribes remain. They join up eventually with the Mexicans because they love the siestas and the Japanese work too damned hard anyway and who understands all that electronics mumbo jumbo.
> 
> Sorry to take the light hearted approach here, but I'm not sure what was required.



No. That's fine, Chic. I like it. :laugh: I guess what I was trying to feel out here, without injecting my own bias, was the standard mantra about how the cruel ( which they were ) Europeans came over and robbed and murdered the innocent native Americans who just wanted to weave their baskets in peace. I was just wondering what possible scenario the people who wring their hands over that would put in its place. Yes. It was a cruel fate for the natives, but inevitable. As you point out, if not the Europeans, then certainly the Russians, and/or Japanese. There seems to be some fairy land idea implied, that if the Europeans had just stayed home, that the natives would still be living simple lives in tune with nature and herds of Bison. 
Before I get killed here for being racist, I fully acknowledge the terrible mistreatment of the noble, environmentally conscious, but not so peaceful natives.


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## Shalimar (Aug 23, 2015)

I agree Underock. No way the First Peoples stood a chance of retaining their autonomy. Too many conquering types with empires in their eyes.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I agree Underock. No way the First Peoples stood a chance of retaining their autonomy. Too many conquering types with empires in their eyes.



  Replied to wrong post.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I think the First Peoples might argue that America/Canada were not lost.



I agree, but saying that Columbus, the Vikings, or whoever else _didn't_ "discover" it is not correct. They _all _discovered it for themselves, just as each of us "discovered" sex.


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## Shalimar (Aug 23, 2015)

Hmmm. I guess it depends on the semantics around the word discover. Interesting.


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## mitchezz (Aug 23, 2015)

Just because you "discover" something doesn't mean you own it......I've recently discovered a new restaurant and I'm pretty sure the owners want to keep it.


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## Shalimar (Aug 23, 2015)

Mitchezz. That is very true! Witty also. Lolololol.


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## Debby (Aug 23, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> No. That's fine, Chic. I like it. :laugh: I guess what I was trying to feel out here, without injecting my own bias, was the standard mantra about how the cruel ( which they were ) Europeans came over and robbed and murdered the innocent native Americans who just wanted to weave their baskets in peace. I was just wondering what possible scenario the people who wring their hands over that would put in its place. Yes. It was a cruel fate for the natives, but inevitable. As you point out, if not the Europeans, then certainly the Russians, and/or Japanese. There seems to be some fairy land idea implied, that if the Europeans had just stayed home, that the natives would still be living simple lives in tune with nature and herds of Bison.
> Before I get killed here for being racist, I fully acknowledge the terrible mistreatment of the noble, environmentally conscious, but not so peaceful natives.




I don't think there is any 'fairy-land' idea about peaceful First Nations people blah, blah, blah.  That would be silly wouldn't it because even amongst themselves, many early cultures had issues BUT you can't argue that whites didn't come in with their 'advanced' capabilities and brutalize people who were doing their own thing, in their own time.  And if you look even today in current society, there still seems to be the same attitude among far too many whites that 'we' are superior simply because we are white.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> Just because you "discover" something doesn't mean you own it......I've recently discovered a new restaurant and I'm pretty sure the owners want to keep it.



Agreed.


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## SifuPhil (Aug 23, 2015)

I guess we'll never know how it _could_ have been, will we?


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

Debby said:


> I don't think there is any 'fairy-land' idea about peaceful First Nations people blah, blah, blah.  That would be silly wouldn't it because even amongst themselves, many early cultures had issues BUT you can't argue that whites didn't come in with their 'advanced' capabilities and brutalize people who were doing their own thing, in their own time.  And if you look even today in current society, there still seems to be the same attitude among far too many whites that 'we' are superior simply because we are white.



Oh, I absolutely agree with that. I've read enough history from original sources, and lived here for 82 years. I know all of the accusations to be absolutely true. My thread in no way is an attempt to defend the abuses committed against the natives during the expansion of the country. I'm merely asking if not the Europeans, then what? 
Lets strike a balance, though. As you mention, the natives were doing a pretty good job of beating, not to mention eating each other up long before anyone else ever set foot here. Lets be thankful that we live in happier times.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> I guess we'll never know how it _could_ have been, will we?



We can never know for sure how it really _was _either.


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## Underock1 (Aug 23, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm. I guess it depends on the semantics around the word discover. Interesting.



Not to mention around just about every other word in the English language. A favorite quote of mine: "Its not what you say. Its what they hear."


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## chic (Aug 24, 2015)

Seriously speaking and with no humor injected, I do believe that with no European adversaries on the horizon, Asians would have travelled to and conquered the Native American peoples in the name of enterprise or "Manifest Destiny". People do exploit. It's human nature. It may be wrong but that's what I believe would have happened in answer to Underock's original question.

Thank you for making me think! This is a compelling thread.


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## Underock1 (Aug 24, 2015)

chic said:


> Seriously speaking and with no humor injected, I do believe that with no European adversaries on the horizon, Asians would have travelled to and conquered the Native American peoples in the name of enterprise or "Manifest Destiny". People do exploit. It's human nature. It may be wrong but that's what I believe would have happened in answer to Underock's original question.
> 
> Thank you for making me think! This is a compelling thread.



Thank you for the reply, Chic. I agree with you 100%. That was the point of my post. There seems to me to be some naive assumption on the part of many that the natives would still be living idyllic lives that never were, if those naughty Europeans had just stayed home. The alternatives may have been worse. The Asians and Russians of the time were not known for being great humanitarians.


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## chic (Aug 25, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Thank you for the reply, Chic. I agree with you 100%. That was the point of my post. There seems to me to be some naive assumption on the part of many that the natives would still be living idyllic lives that never were, if those naughty Europeans had just stayed home. The alternatives may have been worse. The Asians and Russians of the time were not known for being great humanitarians.



I see the point of this now. I agree totally with you about that. Certainly Japan was an expansionist nation and unafraid to invade it's neighbors to expand it's territory. The Chinese had gun powder and knew how to use it. Definitely the Native Americans downfall cannot be blamed on Columbus and Europeans. I've never understood that philosophy. If not the Europeans, some other nation would have conquered the Americas.


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## Underock1 (Aug 25, 2015)

chic said:


> I see the point of this now. I agree totally with you about that. Certainly Japan was an expansionist nation and unafraid to invade it's neighbors to expand it's territory. The Chinese had gun powder and knew how to use it. Definitely the Native Americans downfall cannot be blamed on Columbus and Europeans. I've never understood that philosophy. If not the Europeans, some other nation would have conquered the Americas.



Exactly. That's all I'm saying. Consider yourself not politically correct.


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## chic (Aug 26, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Exactly. That's all I'm saying. Consider yourself not politically correct.



Okay. So be it. But I don't see why I, or any other American, should have to be constantly apologizing for the behaviour of an explorer who lived over 500 years ago. Where does it stop?

Maybe there is such a thing as being too politically correct?


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## Underock1 (Aug 26, 2015)

chic said:


> Okay. So be it. But I don't see why I, or any other American, should have to be constantly apologizing for the behaviour of an explorer who lived over 500 years ago. Where does it stop?
> 
> Maybe there is such a thing as being too politically correct?



_Any _"politically correct" is too politically correct. We are all entitled to our own opinions. We share the same views on _this_ topic.


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## chic (Aug 26, 2015)

Funny how everyone else fell silent though isn't it? There must be many who don't want to appear politically incorrect publicly. Oh well. Such is life. But I enjoyed this thread because it made me think and I still do. Reminds me of watching the debating team in college.


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## Underock1 (Aug 27, 2015)

chic said:


> Funny how everyone else fell silent though isn't it? There must be many who don't want to appear politically incorrect publicly. Oh well. Such is life. But I enjoyed this thread because it made me think and I still do. Reminds me of watching the debating team in college.



The things I find interesting tend to bore most people. Thanks for saving this thread from a horrible death.


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## rt3 (Aug 27, 2015)

Have you explored (pun intended) possibilities of pre Asian migration by Polynesia islanders into South America and their migration into the north forming some of the Indian nations.


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## Underock1 (Aug 27, 2015)

I think that is highly probable. I would think they could resolve that by DNA; Micronesians compared to NA Natives, but I haven't looked into the research. Watched a documentary on the Polynesian canoe voyagers the other day. Hopping from island to island, navigating by the Sun, stars and signs of bird life. They still do some of those as a cultural exercise. Amazing stuff, not to mention darned courageous. Those canoes were a heck of a lot smaller than the Santa Maria!


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## chic (Aug 28, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Have you explored (pun intended) possibilities of pre Asian migration by Polynesia islanders into South America and their migration into the north forming some of the Indian nations.



Yes, but I feel that their watercraft would have been inadequate to launch a full exploration invasion of a country like the continental U.S, was at the time. It would take a more sophisticated culture whose aggression was more develloped and focused. IMHO. They could and did take small islands. But I don't see them settling the Americas successfully.


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## chic (Aug 28, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> The things I find interesting tend to bore most people. Thanks for saving this thread from a horrible death.



I don't find the things that interest you boring at all. It was brave of you to tackle a "politically incorrect" subject - kudos! The thread would not have died a horrible death. There are too many intelligent minds at SF for that to happen. If we took a subject less controversial topic like what would have happened to the class division system in the U.K. had World War I never happened, or what would've happened to the age of enlightenment if the French Revolution of 1789 never occured, I'm sure we'd get lots of replies.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

chic said:


> Yes, but I feel that their watercraft would have been inadequate to launch a full exploration invasion of a country like the continental U.S, was at the time. It would take a more sophisticated culture whose aggression was more develloped and focused. IMHO. They could and did take small islands. But I don't see them settling the Americas successfully.



Thanks for that, Chic. I was going to respond just from my own recall, but decided to check out the latest. As of 2010, it is pretty well established that Polynesians did in fact settle in S America. They have found the bones of their chickens.:smug1: Chickens native to Polynesia, not to S America at the time. Not only that, they have found Sweet Potatoes in Polynesia. Not native to that area. Native to SA. So we are talking round trip here. Finally, they have identified a few human bones from the native population of the time as Polynesian. We are not talking about a conquest of S America by Polynesians. There was no one there to conquer. More a matter of pre-existing small settlements surviving and eventually interbreeding and being absorbed into the  larger population of NA natives as they migrated South.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

chic said:


> I don't find the things that interest you boring at all. It was brave of you to tackle a "politically incorrect" subject - kudos! The thread would not have died a horrible death. There are too many intelligent minds at SF for that to happen. If we took a subject less controversial topic like what would have happened to the class division system in the U.K. had World War I never happened, or what would've happened to the age of enlightenment if the French Revolution of 1789 never occured, I'm sure we'd get lots of replies.



Nah. On this thread its you, me and rt3. I know that the things that interest me a lot, interest the larger population little. Its not a matter of intelligence. I get that there are many more entertaining and interesting things in the world than the doings of a few native people hundreds of years ago. By the way, I also read that the DNA of S American natives has shown up in the  Easter Islanders. So we have pretty good evidence of two way contact.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2015)

The small boat problem can, and was solved by using catamaran type sets ups like the early Greek bridges. 

I think the main reason for the adherence to the Colombus day myths are all from the legal end of the spectrum. Any change from this and property boundaries would have to be redrawn.


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## Shirley (Aug 28, 2015)

History was my favorite subject in school. That was before I realized how much of it is inaccurate. 

The Vikings were on North America 500 years before Columbus.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2015)

Shirley said:


> History was my favorite subject in school. That was before I realized how much of it is inaccurate.
> 
> The Vikings were on North America 500 years before Columbus.



that's why it was interesting (entertaining), if it were the truth it wouldn't be interesting


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

Shirley said:


> History was my favorite subject in school. That was before I realized how much of it is inaccurate.
> 
> The Vikings were on North America 500 years before Columbus.



The natives arrived long before that. Before they arrived the mammoth's were living an idyllic, peaceful life excpt for those pesky scimitar cats. 
School was the worst place to learn history. Particularly back in my day. I try to read from original sources when available. Not easy without access to an academic library of some sort. Thank you Penguin Publishing! 
I have a paperback copy of Hakluyt's Voyages. If you want to know the attitudes of the early explorers, read a copy of the  instructions to the captains describing various ways to trick and capture any newly encountered natives.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

rt3 said:


> that's why it was interesting (entertaining), if it were the truth it wouldn't be interesting



The closer we get to the real story, the more interesting it becomes.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

rt3 said:


> The small boat problem can, and was solved by using catamaran type sets ups like the early Greek bridges.
> 
> I think the main reason for the adherence to the Colombus day myths are all from the legal end of the spectrum. Any change from this and property boundaries would have to be redrawn.



Have you seen the documentary on the Polynesian voyagers? Fascinating stuff. They still train people and make trips to Hawaii
and back in those canoes as a cultural thing. Kind of like historical re-enactors.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Have you seen the documentary on the Polynesian voyagers? Fascinating stuff. They still train people and make trips to Hawaii
> and back in those canoes as a cultural thing. Kind of like historical re-enactors.



I trace the changes more from a study of that cultures stories, myths, and folklore. The portrayal of the hero epic is universal in all cultures, the differences in how the hero used transportation, weapons etc. give clues as to the "flow". as an example swords, especially curved and steel are not native to the western hemisphere. pictures in the western hemisphere or stories involving these are worth looking into. Elephants are another example. none exist, but there are stone statues  in central America etc.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 28, 2015)

chic said:


> If Columbus does not discover America, the Native Americans are free to rule until the Japanese decide to cross the Berring Strait, travel down through Alaska and Canada into California where they are challenged by the Mexicans for supremacy in North America. They (the Mexicans) do a deal where The Japanese take Northern CA and the Mexicans take Southern CA and there's a wholly frijole time at the taco stand cum sushi bar. They intermarry, build railroads, establish farms and ranches until they eventually reach New York where everyone settles happily except the Native Americans who continue to war with each other until only two tribes remain. They join up eventually with the Mexicans because they love the siestas and the Japanese work too damned hard anyway and who understands all that electronics mumbo jumbo.
> 
> Sorry to take the light hearted approach here, but I'm not sure what was required.



Very cute Chic and to an extent, partly true.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

rt3 said:


> I trace the changes more from a study of that cultures stories, myths, and folklore. The portrayal of the hero epic is universal in all cultures, the differences in how the hero used transportation, weapons etc. give clues as to the "flow". as an example swords, especially curved and steel are not native to the western hemisphere. pictures in the western hemisphere or stories involving these are worth looking into. Elephants are another example. none exist, but there are stone statues  in central America etc.



Conclusions from interpretations of primitive stone sculptures are notoriously misleading in my estimation. I often see documentaries showing a sculptured stone head wearing what is undoubtedly ordinary native head wear. It could be just as well interpreted as a football helmet. The TV pseudo-documentaries often promote it as an alien in a space helmet! " Wow! Aliens were here!" They love to do that. They also love making connections between the pyramids and the Aztec and Indonesian temples. Aliens must have come down and taught us how to do that. Well guess what? If you give a five year old a bag of blocks, the first thing he will build is a pyramid. Not because he was instructed from outer space, but because its the simplest thing to do and his common sense hasn't been warped out of him yet by a bunch of silly adults.


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## rt3 (Aug 28, 2015)

no doubt some of them are wearing it to look good, but consistencies crop up. not much of an alien fan here, I think it diminishes and lowers the entire earth event. pyramids are interesting more from the nature of the ratio of the base to the height. If you drop sand as in an hour glass it will pile up until it reaches this ration before cascading down the sides. This is called self organizational criticality in Information theory, and has significance in theories that deal with the definition of consciousness. connect this crystal growth and biological self similarities and some things take on a new light.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

rt3 said:


> no doubt some of them are wearing it to look good, but consistencies crop up. not much of an alien fan here, I think it diminishes and lowers the entire earth event. pyramids are interesting more from the nature of the ratio of the base to the height. If you drop sand as in an hour glass it will pile up until it reaches this ration before cascading down the sides. This is called self organizational criticality in Information theory, and has significance in theories that deal with the definition of consciousness. connect this crystal growth and biological self similarities and some things take on a new light.



Its like those connect the dots pictures that we did as kids. Connect the wrong dots and you get an entirely different picture. I followed you up to "self organizational criticality". I think I'll stick with my bag of blocks view.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 28, 2015)

Actually, unless you hobby in history, I see it as a moot issue.  We are here now.


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## Underock1 (Aug 28, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Actually, unless you hobby in history, I see it as a moot issue.  We are here now.



...and gone tomorrow. I absolutely agree, Jim. History _is _a major interest of mine, but not something to kill over,
unless you're in the Mideast, the Balkans, Indonesia, Sub Saharan Africa, Northern Ireland, etc.
I love it, but there are times when I think we would be much better off if we were all struck with historic Alzheimers and forgot who we were supposed to hate.


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## Cookie (Aug 28, 2015)

Without history, how can anyone understand what is happening now in current events, or even understand what was really happening during the last big war.  There are always complex historical events leading up to everything. History books tell us a lot, especially now that information is readily accessible, and online research and university programs provide much more, for those who are interested.  You really can't go by what they want us to know on the news.


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## chic (Aug 29, 2015)

rt3 said:


> The small boat problem can, and was solved by using catamaran type sets ups like the early Greek bridges.
> 
> I think the main reason for the adherence to the Colombus day myths are all from the legal end of the spectrum. Any change from this and property boundaries would have to be redrawn.



Okay. Point taken but I don't see the Polynesians having the numbers, organizational skills, and agressiveness to transport the stores, equipment, weapons, and sundries neccessary to launch a successful invasion of continental America which was why I chose the Japanese to conquer first because despite whatever watercraft they may have chosen they were physically closer to American soil and it would be easier to finance and launch a successful invasion
/exploration or whatever you wish to call it. It would require much larger vessels to transport an army and the foundation materials for permanent settlements, I think, than those they had at the time. Just my humble opinion.


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## chic (Aug 29, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Conclusions from interpretations of primitive stone sculptures are notoriously misleading in my estimation. I often see documentaries showing a sculptured stone head wearing what is undoubtedly ordinary native head wear. It could be just as well interpreted as a football helmet. The TV pseudo-documentaries often promote it as an alien in a space helmet! " Wow! Aliens were here!" They love to do that. They also love making connections between the pyramids and the Aztec and Indonesian temples. Aliens must have come down and taught us how to do that. Well guess what? If you give a five year old a bag of blocks, the first thing he will build is a pyramid. Not because he was instructed from outer space, but because its the simplest thing to do and his common sense hasn't been warped out of him yet by a bunch of silly adults.



Very true, I agree. They'd try to make us believe that aliens "built" everything from Easter Island to Stonehenge. Why can't early man have solved these engineering problems for themselves?? But then again. Some believe in Bigfoot. There you go.


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## Underock1 (Aug 29, 2015)

chic said:


> Okay. Point taken but I don't see the Polynesians having the numbers, organizational skills, and agressiveness to transport the stores, equipment, weapons, and sundries neccessary to launch a successful invasion of continental America which was why I chose the Japanese to conquer first because despite whatever watercraft they may have chosen they were physically closer to American soil and it would be easier to finance and launch a successful invasion
> /exploration or whatever you wish to call it. It would require much larger vessels to transport an army and the foundation materials for permanent settlements, I think, than those they had at the time. Just my humble opinion.



You're right, Chic. I have been doing a little more reading. The chicken theory for Polynesian contact has been knocked, and we are back to questioning whether there was any contact at all. I personally think there probably was, but of insignificant impact. Certainly, there was never going to be any grand conquest of the Americas by the Polynesians.


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## Underock1 (Aug 29, 2015)

chic said:


> Okay. Point taken but I don't see the Polynesians having the numbers, organizational skills, and agressiveness to transport the stores, equipment, weapons, and sundries neccessary to launch a successful invasion of continental America which was why I chose the Japanese to conquer first because despite whatever watercraft they may have chosen they were physically closer to American soil and it would be easier to finance and launch a successful invasion
> /exploration or whatever you wish to call it. It would require much larger vessels to transport an army and the foundation materials for permanent settlements, I think, than those they had at the time. Just my humble opinion.





chic said:


> Very true, I agree. They'd try to make us believe that aliens "built" everything from Easter Island to Stonehenge. Why can't early man have solved these engineering problems for themselves?? But then again. Some believe in Bigfoot. There you go.



 :what1: You mean you don't believe in Bigfoot?!!


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

Some assumptions may need to be addressed, and I offer these for your perusal.

humankind has been at the same intellectual capacity sense the beginning. Only the consious awareness of their role in scheme of thing has increased 

science and technology are not the same thing 

we place assumptions on historical events based on a higher consious awareness that does not offer an explanation as to why events transpired as they did.

ex. While watching a movie about early Greeks the two main characters, and with strong British accents ( which was more than entertaining in the least) were discussing their tactical alternatives using the future perfect progressive verb congugations. No way did the Greeks in this time period use this structure. It didn't come about until translations such as Homer put them in. It is almost impossible for us now to reconstruct their thought patterns. It takes a lot of practice.
ex, Trojan war, Achilles is pissed at Ulysses and would rather die in the light of truth (Apollo) than be deceitful and build a Trojan horse. In those times the folks talked with Gods daily and everybody accepted it as just another thing. there was no concept of unit time. Try holding a conversation or a series of thoughts only in the present tense with yourself or another.
Ulysses Trojan horse was one of the first recorded deceptions and that's why it worked, the Trojans were operating in a world were what you see is what you get. Ulysses higher level on consious led him on a 20 or so year travel called the Odessey or translated  "Hard Journey". It was not a geographical storey tour for children but a period of relearning with increase consious awareness-- A Brave New World. As does Disney stories it is redressed. 
Some cultures call this a walk about.
the pyramids are structures of incarnation not reincarnation or burial temples.
So the next time you look a gift horse in the mouth it may by a Polynesian with a stolen mask bearing gifts.


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## Shalimar (Aug 29, 2015)

Hello brave new/old world?


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## rt3 (Aug 29, 2015)

Good point. If one is an esoteric Christian, then Christ arrived in the meridian of time and we are now going back to a more spiritual nature and this time would be just about equal to walking in the streets of Babel. 

At that time everyone spoke the same language and their was no need for deception. Peoples word were taken at face value, literally. 
Facebook reached 1 billion people last week.


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## chic (Aug 30, 2015)

The pyramids represent to me the power of the man (pharoah) who ordered them to be built. I understand that these were burial chambers to provide all the comforts of this world to the deceased in his/her afterlife. They could have been built anywhere, but some were built above ground and I think this was to impress upon others the absolute power of pharoah, the power of Egypt. Above ground tombs were not the wealthiest or the most practical but they have been the most impressive and enduring. So I must agree they are an example in incarnation.

I've read the Odessey, but feel that the Trojan horse story, which was in the Illiad, was an ingenious example of consolidating resources, saving forces and still winning a battle through subterfuge. This was purely man's brilliance shining through in a tight spot. The Odessey focused much on the gods controlling the lives of men at their whim which is less compelling.
I'm not sure that the Trojan horse was the first example of human cunning and treachery in all of history, but on a grand scale it was certainly the most successful and therefore memorable.

Good show!


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## chic (Aug 30, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> :what1: You mean you don't believe in Bigfoot?!!



Show me some skeletal remains and you'll spark my interest. No one ever digs up a bone that could absolutely, unequivocally belong to a "missing link" type creature such as bigfoot.


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## Underock1 (Aug 30, 2015)

chic said:


> Show me some skeletal remains and you'll spark my interest. No one ever digs up a bone that could absolutely, unequivocally belong to a "missing link" type creature such as bigfoot.



That's because they get rid of the suit and die at home like the rest of us.


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## rt3 (Aug 30, 2015)

Much of the Odessey is about showing that it was not necessary to have Gods to get things done.  This was a big conflict between Achilles who himself was a demigod and Ulysses ( the main character ).  This point was further brought home by his death by a mortal and showing that false beliefs are an Achilles heel. The war was fought over the Palladium not Helen, and gives an insight has how strong the belief in magic was at that time.  The actual battle, boats, logistics and good storey stuff has the same play out as any other battle, and is dressing fill in for a good storey.


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## rt3 (Aug 30, 2015)

The pyramids are a reminder to who came after that you don't need pi to build an empire. The ratio of the bases to the heights, and the eye of Horus are both continued fractions. This means they had the concepts of mathematical divergence and convergence and continuous  functions. They worked with base 60 and their daily math was done in fractions making it easy to manipulate in the head. 
The presence of this and stuff on other hemispheres such as the Mayan calendar are a good example of the "intellectual level" of previous days.


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## chic (Aug 31, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> That's because they get rid of the suit and die at home like the rest of us.



Yeah, I rather thought that.


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## chic (Aug 31, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Much of the Odessey is about showing that it was not necessary to have Gods to get things done. This was a big conflict between Achilles who himself was a demigod and Ulysses ( the main character ). This point was further brought home by his death by a mortal and showing that false beliefs are an Achilles heel. The war was fought over the Palladium not Helen, and gives an insight has how strong the belief in magic was at that time. The actual battle, boats, logistics and good storey stuff has the same play out as any other battle, and is dressing fill in for a good storey.



Well I feel the gods were against Ulysses blowing him off course while 20 years elapses between the end of the Trojan wars and his reunion with Penelope and even that did not go smoothly.

Is there any proof that Troy really existed? I've never been 100% convinced.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Much of the time I am not 100% certain I exist. Absolutes can be tricky. I find probabilities easier to digest.


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## Underock1 (Aug 31, 2015)

chic said:


> Well I feel the gods were against Ulysses blowing him off course while 20 years elapses between the end of the Trojan wars and his reunion with Penelope and even that did not go smoothly.
> 
> Is there any proof that Troy really existed? I've never been 100% convinced.



The Trojan War has been a life long interest of mine. I have a half a dozen books on it. I even invented a game based on it for my own amusement. Had many happy days defending Troy against my sons and grandsons.

Troy exists today as a major archaeological site in Eastern Turkey. There are actually several different Troys, built one on top of the other. The site was first discovered by an amateur, Heinrich Schliemann sometime around 1850, using the descriptions in the Iliad as a guide. Unfortunately, he brutalized the site, excavating a huge trench through the middle of it, destroying much and failing to note the ambiance of what he found. He found a treasure horde of gold jewelry, which he immediately assigned as Helen's, but it was actually from a different period. The treasure was captured in Berlin by the Russians in WWII, and has since disappeared.

 The evidence for a historical Trojan War is substantial and it is pretty well accepted as fact. It was probably not a single episode though. The Mycenaeans seem to have raided Asia minor on a regular basis over a period of many years.
The Iliad and Odyssey, are a mish mash of history and myth collected together over a long period of time.
Homer, if he existed, was more a collector and editor, than the author. Troy was certainly destroyed, but whether by war or earthquake, is a subject of debate. I feel quite certain it wasn't by the absurdity of any Trojan Horse. Just a good story, and poetic license. The episode is barely referred to in the Odyssey. All of the details come from the Aeneid, written centuries later by the Roman poet, Virgil. Its been a long time, but I seem to remember reading that the voyage in the Odyssey was based on a type of navigational guide used by early Greek sailors.
Aren't you sorry you wondered now? As I said; I've had the interest. How many people do you think there are to share it? I repeat; I am a pretty boring guy.
                                               :yawning:


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## rt3 (Aug 31, 2015)

Great post , thanks. The story, just like the bible, myths and folklore are stories about the growth of the human consious.


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## rt3 (Aug 31, 2015)

Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements. 

studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.


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## Underock1 (Aug 31, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Great post , thanks. The story, just like the bible, myths and folklore are stories about the growth of the human consious.



Thanks, rt3. I'm glad you mentioned that. I meant to make that comparison with the Bible. I suppose you could say they both serve as records of the state of thought in their respective cultures. The Bible was more of a collection of rules and legalities from earlier cultures useful in maintaining an orderly populace. Although the Iliad was referred to in some legal cases in classical Greece, its origins were more about a bunch of macho types sitting around drinking wine and paying to hear a whopping good story.


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## Underock1 (Aug 31, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.
> 
> studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.



I suggest that the short comings are not in the method, but on the profound effects of early influences on the human brain in childhood promoted by the previous generation whose minds were influenced in the same manner, going back to the beginning of human history. Its a hard cycle to break. I know you see it otherwise. Put me down as 100% in the matter before mind camp.


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## rt3 (Aug 31, 2015)

also just plain diets. low thyroid is the largest cause of mental retardation in the world.


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## Underock1 (Aug 31, 2015)

rt3 said:


> also just plain diets. low thyroid is the largest cause of mental retardation in the world.



..and here I thought it was those TV Evangelists.


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## chic (Sep 1, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Much of the time I am not 100% certain I exist. Absolutes can be tricky. I find probabilities easier to digest.



Shalimar, you think; therefore you are. Simple.


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## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2015)

Chic, I envy you that simplicity. I am afraid I inhabit a different world. Poets are weird. Lol.


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## chic (Sep 1, 2015)

I understand that the remains of "Troy" are located in Turkey but there were seven layers of artifacts uncovered by archeologists there. I remember seeing the excavation on tv years ago. So which level would represent the Kingdom written about by Homer? The historical Troy? Is there evidence of a king named Priam and a prince named Hector? It would be more interesting if there were.

The Trojan horse made an interesting story more for what it revealed of Ulysess, a man who cultivated wisdom while surrounded by bravado.

No, I'm never sorry for wondering. I enjoy the thread and learning and imagining. Einstein totally believed in the power of imagination and relied upon his own. Your Troy game sounds like it was lots of fun Underock. Way to go for your creativity.


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## chic (Sep 1, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.
> 
> studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.



Do you mean you believe early man believed in aliens as well as God or a pantheon of gods? Or are you discussing the beliefs of modern man? I'm a little confused here. I believe the bible was written as a set of laws and ordinances designed to control man's behavior.


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## Underock1 (Sep 2, 2015)

chic said:


> I understand that the remains of "Troy" are located in Turkey but there were seven layers of artifacts uncovered by archeologists there. I remember seeing the excavation on tv years ago. So which level would represent the Kingdom written about by Homer? The historical Troy? Is there evidence of a king named Priam and a prince named Hector? It would be more interesting if there were.
> 
> The Trojan horse made an interesting story more for what it revealed of Ulysess, a man who cultivated wisdom while surrounded by bravado.
> 
> No, I'm never sorry for wondering. I enjoy the thread and learning and imagining. Einstein totally believed in the power of imagination and relied upon his own. Your Troy game sounds like it was lots of fun Underock. Way to go for your creativity.



Going by recall here. I believe the Troy associated with the traditional date of the war, 1250BC, is Troy 6a. It was destroyed and burned, but whether by fire or war is debated. Originally, there was only a smallish citadel excavated, but a much larger city has recently been uncovered. I have never run across historical documentation for Priam or Hector, but there is a tantalizing reference in Hittite records of the period to "Alexandros" which was Paris real name. Its fun to speculate. Kind of like working a jigsaw puzzle with only 10% of the pieces and trying to get the picture. If we had the true story, I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.


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## chic (Sep 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Chic, I envy you that simplicity. I am afraid I inhabit a different world. Poets are weird. Lol.



That's not poetry. It's logic.


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## chic (Sep 2, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Studies about history that present time lines, motivational patterns in current awareness, analysis of technological prowess are called matter before mind approaches. Survival of the fittest, carbon 14 dating, reproducibility are their strongest arguements.
> 
> studies about history that recognize time to be an invention of man, restricted motivational patterns due to limitations in awareness, seperation of science from technology etc. are called mind before matter approaches. The fact that 80% of the world population believes in a God, and 50 % believe in aliens would suggest the first method has some short comings.



So religion, and all that has been written about it, is more a record of man's intellectual development and perception rather than factual information? "Time" is definitely an invention of man. (Or is it a "definition" because man is the only animal who is aware of his own mortality?) So, if we eliminate the concept of time, does this expand our awareness and offer limitless possibilities and interpretations of events?


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## chic (Sep 2, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Going by recall here. I believe the Troy associated with the traditional date of the war, 1250BC, is Troy 6a. It was destroyed and burned, but whether by fire or war is debated. Originally, there was only a smallish citadel excavated, but a much larger city has recently been uncovered. I have never run across historical documentation for Priam or Hector, but there is a tantalizing reference in Hittite records of the period to "Alexandros" which was Paris real name. Its fun to speculate. Kind of like working a jigsaw puzzle with only 10% of the pieces and trying to get the picture. If we had the true story, I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.



I don't know. History fascinates me and the true story could be as good as whatever really happened.:love_heart:
 What I was saying was I did see archeological excavations of "Troy" as I'm sure you have, and there were remains of several cities unearthed on the location. Thus emerged the theory that "Troy" wasn't really one place but several, or one place that was destroyed more than once and then rebuilt. 

That's interesting about Alexandros and Paris. I didn't know that. 

It is like a puzzle. It's the wheatfield - 10,000 pieces all in shades of yellow.


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## Shalimar (Sep 2, 2015)

Chic, many poets believe in alternatives to logic, as do some therapists. No criticism is intended.


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## Underock1 (Sep 2, 2015)

chic said:


> I don't know. History fascinates me and the true story could be as good as whatever really happened.:love_heart:
> What I was saying was I did see archeological excavations of "Troy" as I'm sure you have, and there were remains of several cities unearthed on the location. Thus emerged the theory that "Troy" wasn't really one place but several, or one place that was destroyed more than once and then rebuilt.
> 
> That's interesting about Alexandros and Paris. I didn't know that.
> ...


/

Oh truth is often stranger than fiction by far, but its the unknown that fascinates the species.
Troy appears to have been the royal seat of a group of towns. The war would probably be better described as an on going, series of annual raids by he Mycenaeans over a period of several, possibly many years. Its culmination the fall of Troy itself.
I find it telling that there are records on the Linear B discs in Pylos and other Mycenaean cities listing large numbers of disassembled chariots in storage. Yet outside of the Iliad, we have no mention that I know of of any military use of them in Greece. Its mountains make it unsuitable to chariot warfare. I see them as being shipped unassembled to the Troad and set up for use upon landing, but that's just my idea. I have not been able to find any authoratative comment on it.

"The Wheatfield" sounds like a horrendous puzzle. I think I'll pass.


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## chic (Sep 3, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> /
> 
> Oh truth is often stranger than fiction by far, but its the unknown that fascinates the species.
> Troy appears to have been the royal seat of a group of towns. The war would probably be better described as an on going, series of annual raids by he Mycenaeans over a period of several, possibly many years. Its culmination the fall of Troy itself.
> ...



I like the idea that Troy was the seat of a group of smaller towns. This makes sense and would explain, perhaps the archeological findings there. 

In every movie I've ever seen about the Trojan wars, they (the Greeks and Trojans rode chariots ). Movies are always so accurate - right? layful: I suppose they could be disassembled, transported, and reassembled though. Anywhere that a road was paved, you'd find a chariot. Plus the terrain of Troy ( Turkey ) was not as inhospitable to chariot use as that of Greece. I did see chariots depicted on Greek black figure and red figure amphorae so they must have existed for some kind of military use, otherwise they would not have been important enough to commemorate in art.


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