# Pushing buttons



## []Doo[]Der (Dec 6, 2014)

There are bound to be strong positions taken on certain topics. Positions from both sides that will never be resolved to opponents/ protagonists 

Those that come to mind, not necessarily in order of conflicting positions or import might include;

Abortion
Israel
Islamophobia
Police violence
First Nations
Adding fluoride
Immigration
Politics.

Now it's difficult to get rational argument or debate on some of these and I have a problem with that. Any board/forum I've attended seem to go bananas on these (and other personal topics like euthanasia, climate change,global warming, conspiracy theories( 911-Kennedy etc.), and I wish it wasn't so.

So, do you have a personal issue, perhaps one I've listed that you would totally avoid discussing? I would personally never get into the topic of abortion and I've followed 'that'  divisive issue since Henry Morganthaler - pro choice advocate was a proponent and set up clinics.May I ask what you find as a lost cause in your experience? Hmmmmm?

This is not a rhetorical question, I'd like input. Otherwise, I might start a post on_______


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## Debby (Dec 6, 2014)

I think I'd probably talk about most of those things if it was something that I have been 'educating' myself on.  No sacred cows you know, except for the one caveat of being educated on it.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Dec 6, 2014)

There are two subjects I try to avoid, politics and religion, unless provoked.  I don't know enough about the other 7 you first listed to offer an informed opinion.  Of your other personal subjects listed below the only one I got deeply involved in was conspiracy theories.  Not becoming an expert but was a very active participant.  I finally realized that it was consuming most of my time and making me generally convinced that everyone was deceitful and untrustworthy.  I had reams of papers, clipped articles, computer files and until I watched the Mel Gibson/Julia Roberts movie 'Conspiracy Theory' I hadn't realized what I was becoming.   

 I still watch 'Ancient Aliens' and am convinced that they were instrumental in all the things that we have no answers to, *NOT*!  I was home on leave when Kennedy was assassinated, then meeting a co-worker/serviceman who was 2 blocks away when the shooting took place was enough to convince me it was a conspiracy.  It's hard to shake the dis-trust I have of others when part of my service connected duties was monitoring military active of unnamed foreign countries and watching any James Bond movie.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Dec 6, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> There are bound to be strong positions taken on certain topics. Positions from both sides that will never be resolved to opponents/ protagonists
> 
> Those that come to mind, not necessarily in order of conflicting positions or import might include;
> 
> ...



EXCELLENT list!  Some additional ones that are apt to see lively discussion...

Minimum wage/"living" wage
Theory of evolution as part of K-12 cirriculum
Climate change
Causes for fuel prices to go up... to come down
Clean water/air vs. over-regulation
Work ethic of today's generation
Should Social Security be for retirees?  Or, is it okay seeing the system drained by those collecting disability?
Are we entitled to have televisions, cell phones, college education, auto, brand-name groceries....


And they wonder why I'm a "grumpy old man"!!!!


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm staying far, far away from the discussions of Ferguson.  I get labelled the racist I ain't if I open my mouth on that one.

You forgot religion.  I timidly am openly Atheist.  I say timidly because people can take it way too personally when you don't believe in their god.  I used to go to debate boards for fun but honestly I found the Atheists as obnoxious as the holy rollers in the end, especially those embracing the anti-theist movement.  I quit them cold when a local blogger came out Atheist and blogged about why he was afraid to say that and the local Atheists pretty much attacked his honest blog.  (He had blogged positively about his best friend's ordination as a Catholic priest two days earlier so they were probably already not happy with him but I thought both pieces were honest and beautifully written.  I stuck up for him when the Atheist meet-up I belong to waged verbal warfare on him and that ended in my being drummed out of the group within hours.  Um, yeah, you don't have to be an extreme theist to be intolerant.)  I like to say I'm Atheist, not anti-theist because I find myself equated with those extremists and I am no more them than the average Christian is Phelps.  

My personal belief is that belief isn't a choice.  Either something sounds credible to you or it doesn't.  It's that simple.  So I hold no one's belief against them and way too many theists of all stripes have not held my disbelief against me to buy into anti-theist nonsense and agnostics just don't know whether to think it's believable or not so why hold that against them?  Besides, they're right.  Neither side has been proven.


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## hollydolly (Dec 6, 2014)

Politics and religion for me as well. Not that I'm ignorant about either, and I can hold my own in a calm debate but like the OP I do find that people generally jealously guard  their beliefs with a tenacity of a first time mother holding onto a premature baby....they do tend to snarl and spit if someone attempts to proffer an alternative view...so I prefer to keep my opinions to my  nearest and dearest


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## RadishRose (Dec 6, 2014)

I can also debate many of these topics, but I prefer to have the fun this Forum affords me.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 6, 2014)

Blaze Duskdreamer said:


> I'm staying far, far away from the discussions of Ferguson.  I get labelled the racist I ain't if I open my mouth on that one.
> 
> You forgot religion.  I timidly am openly Atheist.  I say timidly because people can take it way too personally when you don't believe in their god.  I used to go to debate boards for fun but honestly I found the Atheists as obnoxious as the holy rollers in the end, especially those embracing the anti-theist movement.  I quit them cold when a local blogger came out Atheist and blogged about why he was afraid to say that and the local Atheists pretty much attacked his honest blog.  (He had blogged positively about his best friend's ordination as a Catholic priest two days earlier so they were probably already not happy with him but I thought both pieces were honest and beautifully written.  I stuck up for him when the Atheist meet-up I belong to waged verbal warfare on him and that ended in my being drummed out of the group within hours.  Um, yeah, you don't have to be an extreme theist to be intolerant.)  I like to say I'm Atheist, not anti-theist because I find myself equated with those extremists and I am no more them than the average Christian is Phelps.
> 
> My personal belief is that belief isn't a choice.  Either something sounds credible to you or it doesn't.  It's that simple.  So I hold no one's belief against them and way too many theists of all stripes have not held my disbelief against me to buy into anti-theist nonsense and agnostics just don't know whether to think it's believable or not so why hold that against them?  Besides, they're right.  Neither side has been proven.



Religion of course. However I find those that 'believe' or are 'saved' are so dogmatic they won't debate at all. A soon as you opine on a biblical point or tenet you might as well talk to the wall...not worth the effort. 

Still it seems today that Christianity is fair game and is attacked without any repercussion from most quarters.

But I respectfully disagree on " Either something sounds credible to you or it doesn't.  It's that simple."

When I was told there was a 3D printer I laughed my head off. Thought the guy was pulling my leg just as was the Morman (COLDS)Holy Book...


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 6, 2014)

Debate too should be fun, not armed conflict.


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## Butterfly (Dec 7, 2014)

Might as well put gay marriage on that list -- it raises the blood pressure of a lot of people.


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## Lee (Dec 7, 2014)

Pit Bulls....people get all het up over that. Punish the deed and not the breed and all that crap.


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## Geezerette (Dec 7, 2014)

Really good topic! Nice to TALK about arguements as a topic for a change, instead of HAVING argurments. Some people love to argue, I dont. Here's another hot button: HUNTING.


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## Debby (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm not sure what is the point of listing topics to not talk about.  

Sounds like everyone will be happy to just talk about the weather and gardening.  Nice and safe and we can all learn about tomatoes.


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## Geezerette (Dec 7, 2014)

I don't think the original poster meant NOT to talk about those topics, just pointing out the predictable results when they do come up in some arenas.


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## Debby (Dec 7, 2014)

Yes the original post did ask for what any one individual might not get involved in discussions of, so you have a point.  But except as a filler thread, I still am not sure what the point is.  

Besides the OP did 'threaten' to start a thread on whatever no one mentions.  (and I know, that was 'tongue-in-cheek').


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## oldman (Dec 7, 2014)

3-D printer? I heard that 3-D was going to be the next big fad to come out. I wished that I would have saved a pair of 3-D glasses from when I went to see the Blob and other movies back in the 50's. I will have to research these.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 7, 2014)

I would like to debate many of those topics but it's sometimes hard to have an honest debate without some getting mad. 

I find it really hard to understand why some people believe certain things ( especially about religion ) but so many get mad just because you ask.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 7, 2014)

The (A) point  is we seem to have lost the capacity to even consider the possibility that an opposing view might have at least some merit. The capacity to listen or see another point of view might have validity.
The (B) point is the futility of discussing some issues that the opposition has set in stone. I cannot EVER discuss the bible with a Southern Baptist I know. Their contention that it's god's word and literal simply has come to mean..don't bother to me.
Yet, the bible thumper feels the right to drop biblical content as if it is their duty. Such lot give no respect to another's views at all.

My (C) point is that in the perfect world we would listen and consider other views at least to the degree that is advancing the thought process, and., of course in a subject were we have some ?(referenced-Goggled?) knowledge.
Without the need to resort to useless ad hominem to no end or point.

So have at it on any subject, but remember Pooper's mom used ta say..ya can't hear so good when yer mouths open and makin a noise.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 7, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> I would like to debate many of those topics but it's sometimes hard to have an honest debate without some getting mad.
> 
> I find it really hard to understand why some people believe certain things ( especially about religion ) but so many get mad just because you ask.



Those types never get it. When they get mad or avoid reason, they may as well fold their tent and drop out, 'cause ain't nobody -no how, with a modicum of sense gonna continue.
Such behavior simply kills the thread-topic for any reasonable contributors.


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## jujube (Dec 7, 2014)

I seldom, practically never, discuss religion with anyone.  My mother almost took my head off a couple of months ago when I said that what Moslems, Buddhists, Jews, etc., believe isn't really any stranger than what we Christians believe, i.e. nobody alive saw any of this happen and we have to rely on narratives that may or may not have been written by eyewitnesses as to whether anybody walked on water, healed lepers and raised the dead.  Her answer was "That's different....we KNOW it happened; all their stuff is just say-so."  Okay, no more theological discussions with my mom.

When we took the intensive Temple Square tour in Salt Lake City a couple of years ago, I laid down the law to my boyfriend (the atheist).  He was NOT to engage anyone in theological discussion.....he was to nod and say "How interesting..." at all times and otherwise he was to keep.his.mouth.shut.   Of course, he couldn't resist and I had to kick him in the ankle (accidentally, of course, of course....) a couple of times.  I admire the Mormons for their undying adherence to what they believe in, but there's no discussing theology with them.  I also admire the Buddhists, the Jews, the Catholics, the Jehovah Witnesses, the Animists, the Albigensians, the Tree-Worshippers, even the Moslems (well, most of them).  If what you believe in makes you feel good and *it doesn't hurt anyone else* (and therein lies my problems with *some* Moslems), then I say MORE POWER TO YOU!  You do your thing...I'll do my thing...and let's all just try to get along.


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## Debby (Dec 7, 2014)

Your mom and mine must be related jujube!


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## Debby (Dec 7, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> ..........
> Yet, the bible thumper feels the right to drop biblical content as if it is their duty. Such lot give no respect to another's views at all............





'their duty' - actually it is their duty to be 'fishers of men' and you can only do that if you preach it.  And there's also the parable of the talents where the landowner gives his slaves five coins/talents each to 'invest' for him while he's away.  Some of the slaves 'invested' and gave him back the five plus more but there was one who for fear of losing even what he was given, buried it in the ground and then when the landowner returned, handed him back only the original talents.  And in the end, the landowner threw that worthless slave into the outer darkness.

That parables landowner is God, the slaves are the believers and the talents are the Word of God/new believers and well, you can guess what the outer darkness stands for.  So maybe that clarifies a bit, the tendency to drop Bible verses anywhere possible.  I won't say 'fear' is the motivation, but perhaps a little anxiety about whether they are truly saved might have a bit to do with it.  

Matthew 25:14-30


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## rkunsaw (Dec 8, 2014)

Debby said:


> 'their duty' - actually it is their duty to be 'fishers of men' and you can only do that if you preach it.  And there's also the parable of the talents where the landowner gives his slaves five coins/talents each to 'invest' for him while he's away.  Some of the slaves 'invested' and gave him back the five plus more but there was one who for fear of losing even what he was given, buried it in the ground and then when the landowner returned, handed him back only the original talents.  And in the end, the landowner threw that worthless slave into the outer darkness.
> 
> That parables landowner is God, the slaves are the believers and the talents are the Word of God/new believers and well, you can guess what the outer darkness stands for.  So maybe that clarifies a bit, the tendency to drop Bible verses anywhere possible.  I won't say 'fear' is the motivation, but perhaps a little anxiety about whether they are truly saved might have a bit to do with it.
> 
> Matthew 25:14-30



But what you call your "duty" only applies to others who believe the same as you do. To the rest of us you are trying to push your beliefs "in our face", so to speak. Believe what you want but don't bother me with your beliefs unless you are willing to listen to my beliefs as well. Then we can have a conversation.


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## Debby (Dec 8, 2014)

Well smack my hand and put me in my place.   Did I say I am a Christian?  Don't think so.  I was informing you as to the mindset of Christian believers and how they come to that belief.

Actually, if you'd read that thread where I talked about what I believe happens after we die, you'd be more aware of the difference between mine and the average Christians belief system.
If you'd like to refresh your memory on that score, here's the link:  https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...as-a-Near-Death-Experience-and-Tells-About-It
And maybe this time, you'd be interested in sharing your opinions on the what, when and how of our 'afterlife'.  I've been pretty open on what my opinion is.  We can have a conversation.


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## rkunsaw (Dec 8, 2014)

The information you posted about the Christian mindset is what I was commenting on.


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## Debby (Dec 8, 2014)

Your comment was: 'But what you call your "duty" only applies to others who believe the same as you do. To the rest of us you are trying to push your beliefs "in our face", so to speak. Believe what you want but don't bother me with your beliefs unless you are willing to listen to my beliefs as well. Then we can have a conversation.​



And you referenced 'my' duty and others who believe as 'I' do, 'I' am pushing my beliefs, etc.  No mention of 'their beliefs, they should listen to others, etc.'

Still sounds like you were attempting to reprimand me for forcing my Christian beliefs.....but if you weren't it's all good.
​


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 8, 2014)

*These same people have decided none others will find heaven.*

I believe proselyting is an imposition on the target potential convert. Perhaps there are instructions in some religions to do so, Islam-Christianity, CoLDS, etc. but it's not acceptable to me when the proselytizing party is of one mind and unreceptive to other opinions.

It may well be that such actions are directed by their religion but they should expect other views or derogatory remarks if they won't 'listen'.
These same 'Christian' people have decided none others will find heaven. Such attitudes cause contempt for religion and unfortunately discourage any dialogue. A dogmatic view is a tunnel vision perspective. I can accept that there care those who cannot in all good conscience 'listen to' evolution or criticism of biblical passages/beliefs, but I cannot accept that such person can deny their god gave them brains and th ability to listen and think.


Re Biblical verse to proselytize ;
http://www.christian-bible.com/Worship/Sermons/proselytize.htm


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## Debby (Dec 8, 2014)

That's the first time I've ever heard a Christian suggest that 'membership' isn't absolutely necessary for salvation.  I wonder if he was burned at the stake later?layful:


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 9, 2014)

Not likely that's reserved for witchcraft.


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## oakapple (Dec 9, 2014)

There are lots of subjects that make others angry, religion and politics being the 2 worse ones. What starts off as reasoned debate quickly degenerates into a slanging match.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 9, 2014)

Nothing wrong with an occasional slanging match..


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## kcvet (Dec 9, 2014)

im under the threat of being banned if i give my opinion. especally politics. so i won't go there


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## Sightings (Dec 9, 2014)

Gee, is there anything left to talk about other than (see Facebook) cute kittens and cute kids? But, you know, on abortion, most people actually agree. About 20% of Americans think it should be legal in all cases. About 15% sat it should be illegal in all cases. But the majority of Americans -- some 65% -- think it should be legal in cases of rape, incest, health of mother, and some other situations, but not late-term or partial birth abortion.


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## SeaBreeze (Dec 9, 2014)

Sightings said:


> But, you know, on abortion, most people actually agree. About 20% of Americans think it should be legal in all cases. About 15% sat it should be illegal in all cases. But the majority of Americans -- some 65% -- think it should be legal in cases of rape, incest, health of mother, and some other situations, but not late-term or partial birth abortion.



Here's some of our views on abortion...https://www.seniorforums.com/showth...n-Abortion-Take-The-POLL!?highlight=abortions


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 10, 2014)

oakapple said:


> There are lots of subjects that make others angry, religion and politics being the 2 worse ones. What starts off as reasoned debate quickly degenerates into a slanging match.



Which is certainly immature. Surely someone with a  partisan position on politics or a personal stand on abortion or religion can accept another position/opinion? If not they should not be pontificating in any forum or to any general audience expecting complete agreement. That would be inflexible and rigid behavior and unreasonably uncompromising. Let those so afflicted reserve their stand to an arena where there would be no debate. If such immaturity leads to abusive response they should be totally ignored as responding to those of the sort only encourages them.

Surely there is room to opine on pretty much anything. If there's a subject that should never be discussed, I've never encountered it in my life time. Those I referenced are ll grist for the mill. I would personally avoid none if I was interested.


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## []Doo[]Der (Dec 10, 2014)

kcvet said:


> im under the threat of being banned if i give my opinion. especally politics. so i won't go there



Interesting and curious. Censorship -banning should not be done lightly.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 10, 2014)

[]Doo[]Der said:


> Interesting and curious. Censorship -banning should not be done lightly.



It is up to the individual owners / operators of the fora in question. Some have heavy hands, some you never even know they're there.


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## oakapple (Dec 10, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> It is up to the individual owners / operators of the fora in question. Some have heavy hands, some you never even know they're there.


 And some can even write correct Latin!


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## SifuPhil (Dec 10, 2014)

oakapple said:


> And some can even write correct Latin!



 Thank you for noticing. Unfortunately (or perhaps _fortunately_) I'm neither an owner nor administrator of any forum.


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## oakapple (Dec 10, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Thank you for noticing. Unfortunately (or perhaps _fortunately_) I'm neither an owner nor administrator of any forum.


                   I notice everything Phil, and think you would make an admirable owner/administrator [with one tiny fault] you may rap knuckles for things like excessive use of  exclamation marks!!! Words like lol, and incorrect facts stated [which would wipe out most of the posts.]


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## SifuPhil (Dec 10, 2014)

oakapple said:


> I notice everything Phil, and think you would make an admirable owner/administrator [with one tiny fault] you may rap knuckles for things like excessive use of  exclamation marks!!! Words like lol, and incorrect facts stated [which would wipe out most of the posts.]



"With one tiny fault".

There you go - now you've triggered my crippling social insecurities. I shall have to go sleepless this evening while attempting to ferret out what my "tiny fault" might be.

Is my nose too big, or my face too small? 
Would I rap too many knuckles in the spring and in the fall?
Have you ever wondered 'bout the man who wore asbestos breeches
He's the one - the grammar Nazi - who corrected Hitler's speeches!


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## kcvet (Dec 10, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> "With one tiny fault".
> 
> There you go - now you've triggered my crippling social insecurities. I shall have to go sleepless this evening while attempting to ferret out what my "tiny fault" might be.
> 
> ...





> He's the one - the grammar Nazi - who corrected Hitler's speeches!



Stalin


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## oakapple (Dec 11, 2014)

Tee-hee Phil, you are one of the great poets.

Kcvet..... Stalin was  Russian.


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## kcvet (Dec 11, 2014)

oakapple said:


> Tee-hee Phil, you are one of the great poets.
> 
> Kcvet..... Stalin was  Russian.



yeah I heard that somewhere


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Dec 20, 2014)

Sorry I'm so long replying/away.  Life's been crazy lately.  Beyond crazy.



[]Doo[]Der said:


> Religion of course. However I find those that 'believe' or are 'saved' are so dogmatic they won't debate at all. A soon as you opine on a biblical point or tenet you might as well talk to the wall...not worth the effort.
> 
> Still it seems today that Christianity is fair game and is attacked without any repercussion from most quarters.
> 
> ...



Ah, but someone can actually physically show you the printer and demonstrate its function to you.  Big, big difference.



[]Doo[]Der said:


> Yet, the bible thumper feels the right to drop biblical content as if it is their duty. Such lot give no respect to another's views at all.



I feel that way too.  I'll drop it and agree to disagree but if they persist on quoting scripture to me (and I was raised Christian and understand why they do) then my tearing said scripture apart is fair game.    I'll give my Christian friends a look and say do you really want to hear me destroy that and they know, nope, no, I don't.


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