# "Ghost" Soldiers of the Somme



## Laurie (Jul 3, 2016)

As part of the 100 year commemoration of the Battle of the Somme parties of volunteers dressed in WW1 uniforms were positioned at various place round the UK.

I only saw the photographs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36682140

but I fond them intensely moving.

Perhaps not widely reported in the US, but I thought the members of this forum might find  it of interest.


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## Goldfynche (Jul 3, 2016)

Yes, I watched it on TV. It was brilliantly done and extremely moving. The young men who took part, played their parts perfectly, looking for all the world like young anxious soldiers not knowing what awaited them.


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## Warrigal (Jul 3, 2016)

Such senseless waste of young lives must never be forgotten, and hopefully, never repeated.
The visual representation is a brilliant way to commemorate  these half remembered battles.

Australia had our most disastrous night on the Somme on July 16, 1916.



> (Writes author Peter Fitzsimons) "In a fortnight I will be heading to France to attend the centenary of the most appalling night in Australian history.
> 
> In the early evening of July 19, 1916, while still broad daylight, no fewer than 7000  Diggers – bravely following an _insane _plan – were sent forward at Fromelles​, across as much as 400 yards of open ground straight at German machine-guns, which cut them to pieces and continued to do so for the next 14 hours.
> 
> ...


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## Butterfly (Jul 3, 2016)

Laurie said:


> As part of the 100 year commemoration of the Battle of the Somme parties of volunteers dressed in WW1 uniforms were positioned at various place round the UK.
> 
> I only saw the photographs
> 
> ...



I find this fascinating.  I had not heard of this commemoration before and thank you for posting about it.  There is something "out of time" or "otherworldly" about it that is quite moving.

I'm a history buff, but I am more well versed in WWII and the American Civil War.  I must admit I don't know enough about this particular battle.  I'm going to do some research into it as a result of this post.  

Interestingly enough, re-enactments and commemorations of the Battle of Gettysburg from our Civil War are also ongoing now, as it is the anniversary of the 3 day battle, but I don't think anything like the ghost soldiers has been done here.

Most interesting  Thank you.


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## Buckeye (Jul 3, 2016)

Doughboys!  My maternal grandfather is second from left.  No idea exactly when this was taken.  They all seem to be happy about having a loaf of bread


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## Bee (Jul 3, 2016)

Laurie said:


> As part of the 100 year commemoration of the Battle of the Somme parties of volunteers dressed in WW1 uniforms were positioned at various place round the UK.
> 
> I only saw the photographs
> 
> ...



I have only seen the photos also but have to agree it was very moving.


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## Laurie (Jul 4, 2016)

The scale cannot really be imagined.

The Somme memorial at Thiepval lists the names of 72,000.  These are not the dead, but just the missing, those  blown to bits or buried deep in the mud, just in this one battle.

72,000 missing in just one battle.


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## Warrigal (Jul 4, 2016)

Laurie, a number of Aussies have been found in mass graves at Fromelles and using DNA from descendents many are now reburied in proper named graves.

http://www.army.gov.au/our-work/unrecovered-war-casualties-army/fromelles/the-fromelles-project


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## Ralphy1 (Jul 4, 2016)

And, sadly, we didn't learn a damn thing from it...


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## NancyNGA (Jul 4, 2016)

Today at lunch this battle came up in conversation, along with that of poet Alan Seeger.  Just thought I'd add this, FWIW.

*Alan Seeger
* (22 June 1888 – 4 July 1916) was an American poet who fought and died in World War I during the Battle of Somme serving in the French Foreign Legion. Seeger was the uncle of American folk singer Pete Seeger, and was a classmate of T.S. Eliot at Harvard. He was killed in action at Belloy-en-Santerre on July 4, 1916, after being hit several times by machine gun fire.

He is most well known for having authored the poem, _I Have a Rendezvous with Death_, a favorite of President John F. Kennedy.

　
*I have a rendezvous with Death
Alan Seeger
*
I have a rendezvous with Death
At some disputed barricade,
When Spring comes back with rustling shade
And apple-blossoms fill the air—
I have a rendezvous with Death
When Spring brings back blue days and fair.

It may be he shall take my hand
And lead me into his dark land
And close my eyes and quench my breath—
It may be I shall pass him still.
I have a rendezvous with Death
On some scarred slope of battered hill,
When Spring comes round again this year
And the first meadow-flowers appear.

God knows ’twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where Love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear…
But I’ve a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.


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## Underock1 (Jul 4, 2016)

Thank you for posting this. Very well done commemoration. I have a number of books on the Somme along with Verdun and Passchendaele. Surely the most horrific experiences any men ever had to face and for the least reason. If only every soldier including their officers had joined that Christmas truce and said "No. We're not doing this any more!" I know. Silly thought. What a tragedy. Honor to the dead.


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## Shalimar (Jul 4, 2016)

Tedward said:


> I can't believe how allied troops were ordered to charge across open ground straight into machinegun fire. They did it time and time again. *Why?*


 Pathetic higher ups?


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## Butterfly (Jul 4, 2016)

Tedward said:


> I can't believe how allied troops were ordered to charge across open ground straight into machinegun fire. They did it time and time again. *Why?*



For the same reason, whatever it was, that Confederate soldiers under George Pickett charged across upon ground and uphill into heavy artillery fire and almost certain death at Gettysburg on July 3, 1863.


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## Warrigal (Jul 4, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> For the same reason, whatever it was, that Confederate soldiers under George Pickett charged across upon ground and uphill into heavy artillery fire and almost certain death at Gettysburg on July 3, 1863.



The American Civil War saw this kind of slaughter on more than on occasion and WW I was indeed characterised by high command that saw human lives as disposable and replaceable. Refusal to die when ordered was punishable by firing squad.


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## Underock1 (Jul 4, 2016)

Initially, in both cases, the commanders were fighting the last war. They did not understand the vast increase in destructive power of the new weapons. At the Somme, they assumed the Germans would be totally wiped out by the artillery barrage and mines. What is unforgivable, is that they continued to order attack after attack in the same manner after witnessing the result.


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## Warrigal (Jul 5, 2016)

> What is unforgivable, is that they continued to order attack after attack in the same manner after witnessing the result.



How true, but we did have one general who was an intelligent commander. His name is John Monash and he is something of a legend in Australia.



> John Monash is considered one of the war’s outstanding commanders. Monash was born in Melbourne on 27 June 1865. He was dux of Scotch College and studied arts and engineering at Melbourne University, where he was also involved in debating and student politics. Outside of university he dabbled in acting. In 1884 he joined the university company of the 4th Battalion, Victorian Rifles.
> 
> Monash was a driven young man, ambitious and intelligent. He worked on the construction of the Princes Bridge in Melbourne and in 1888 was placed in charge of constructing a new railway even though he had yet to complete his degree. Monash married Hannah Moss in April 1891, finished his studies in 1895 and, having long since decided to combine engineering with a military career, was promoted to captain in the Garrison Artillery that year. In 1897 Monash was promoted to major in the North Melbourne Battery and served there for 11 years.
> 
> ...



More here: 





> He joined Melbourne University's Metropolitan Brigade of the Garrison Artillery, and until the outbreak of war in 1914, he worked at learning the skills of artillery and engineering, as well as teaching and designing. By 1914, he was in command of the AIF's 4th Brigade in Egypt, where, like most Australian troops, he experienced the disastrous effects of bad organisation and planning, and poor command decisions. It was to be in France in 1918 that Monash would truly make his mark.After moving to the Western Front in 1916, Monash was promoted to Major General and took command of the 3rd Division. In the years leading to 1918, he and his troops were involved in many confrontations, including the Battles of Messines, the third battle of Ypres, and Polygon Wood, with some successes.
> 
> In May 1918, Monash was appointed corps commander of the Australian forces, and in that year he led some significant attacks by Australian troops in the final stages of the war. Monash's troops were involved in helping to stem the March German offensive. But it was during the battle at Hamel that Monash really secured his reputation. Monash's skilful planning and attention to detail resulted in a triumphant attack and capture of the town by Australian and American troops. This was the beginning of a series of successful campaigns by Australians that continued until their last battle in October.
> 
> ...


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## Laurie (Jul 5, 2016)

Ralphy1 said:


> And, sadly, we didn't learn a damn thing from it...



Of course we did.

We learnt that surface burst shrapnel shells are useless for breaching properly laid wire and you should use bangalore torpedoes, and these same surface burst shells are useless against a well dg deep  trench system manned by seasoned troops  who've had months to prepare.

We also learned that it is folly to send light infantry against well sited and well served machine guns without armoured support, though this is a lesson which should have already been learnt.  Even Wellington and Napoleon wouldn't send infantry in without cavalry support.


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## Laurie (Jul 5, 2016)

Tedward said:


> I can't believe how allied troops were ordered to charge across open ground straight into machinegun fire. They did it time and time again. *Why?*



Because British commanders though that an intense artillery bombardment would breach the wire and  destroy the German trench system, they were wrong, see my other post.

In fact they had limited options .  Although much is made of ground gained and lost, in this particular battle a major objective, achieved, was to relieve pressure on the French.

They were being bled white at Verdun (160.000 dead) and it was widely believed that they would not be able to hold until Christmas.  Thanks in part to the Somme they held, but at tremendous cost, they effectively lost a whole generation.  That is why "Ils ne Passeront Pas"  has passed into French legend.


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## Warrigal (Jul 5, 2016)

I have been watching the Danish TV series "1864 - The Danish War".
It was a territorial dispute between the Danes and the Prussians.
It featured trenches, artillery barrages and muzzle loading rifles with bayonets.
The Prussian leader was Bismarck and the Danes were no match, being out numbered and outgunned.

Still, their leaders were happy to sacrifice one third of the army, believing that that would bring about victory.

It is an excellent series if you don't mind subtitles.


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## Butterfly (Jul 5, 2016)

Underock1 said:


> Initially, in both cases, the commanders were fighting the last war. They did not understand the vast increase in destructive power of the new weapons. At the Somme, they assumed the Germans would be totally wiped out by the artillery barrage and mines. What is unforgivable, is that they continued to order attack after attack in the same manner after witnessing the result.



Exactly.  They were fighting a 20th century war with 19th century tactics.  Incredible slaughter.  

As a Civil War nut, I stood on the Gettysburg battlefield at the place where Pickett's charge began and looked across that field at the place the Union artillery was set up.  The Confederates (three divisions, as I recall) never had a chance.  And the unforgivable (to use your word) thing is that Lee had been advised by several of his subordinates that it was a suicidal charge and at least one of them pleaded with him not to give the order, but he gave it anyway.  Many, if not most, of the men knew what was coming and many pinned a note with their names and hometown to their uniforms so their bodies could be identified, but they went ahead anyway. 

As I stood there, I asked myself if I could have had the courage to do that.  It was a question I couldn't answer.


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## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

"hey were fighting a 20th century war with 19th century tactics. I"

Not strictly true, except insofar as strong points, or fortresses were concerned.  I don''t know of any major conflict involving a continuous front line trench system in the 19th century.  While was used in your Civil War it was only to a limited degree.

That was the trouble, trench warfare on such a scale was, in fact, new, and no-one had any idea how to defeat it.


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## Warrigal (Jul 6, 2016)

I'm not so sure about that Laurie.

The Danish/Prussian war depicted in the TV series seemed to have trenches as a Danish defensive line, complete with deep ditches in front of them.

This was 1864. Some research needed perhaps? I'll see what I can find out.


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## Warrigal (Jul 6, 2016)

I've found some early references to trench warfare.



> *Trench warfare**, *in which opposing armed forces attack, counterattack, and defend from relatively permanent systems of trenches dug into the ground. The opposing systems of trenches are usually close to one another. Trench warfare is resorted to when the superior firepower of the defense compels the opposing forces to “dig in” so extensively as to sacrifice their mobility in order to gain protection.
> 
> A trench system may begin simply as a collection of foxholes hastily dug by troops using their entrenching tools. These holes may subsequently be deepened so that a soldier can safely stand up in one of them, and the individual foxholes may be connected by shallow crawl trenches. From this beginning a system of more permanent field fortifications may be constructed. In making a trench, soil from the excavation is used to create raised parapets running both in front of and behind the trench. Within the trench are firing positions along a raised forward step called a fire step, and duckboards are placed on the often muddy bottom of the trench to provide secure footing.
> 
> ...


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## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

Infantry have bee "digging in" since the invention of the firearm, particularly as a defensive strongpoint, it is,after all, simply a development of the mptte and bailey.

However, a sophisticated  entire front line trench system stretching, in this case, from the Swiss border to the North Sea was new.

We tend to think of the trench system as entirely like the primitive mud holes of the Allies, but the German trenches were deep with much overhead protection.  They had sleeping quarters, mess halls, bathing facilities and so on.

They required deep penetration weapons, and the only remotely similar weapons  available were naval armour piercing shells.

As for 19th century methods, the tank was only a self propelled  gabion as used at Talavera and Badajoz!


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## Warrigal (Jul 6, 2016)

And the Western Front also saw the development of deep tunnels that undermined the positions of the enemy. By both sides.


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## Underock1 (Jul 6, 2016)

Whatever the technical details, a horror beyond words. I actually use it to kick myself when my "Woe is me" syndrome hits. I tell myself "I'm not sitting up to my waist in a water filled shell hole shared with decomposing human beings while under incessant heavy artillery fire". Works every time!.


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## Laurie (Jul 6, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> And the Western Front also saw the development of deep tunnels that undermined the positions of the enemy. By both sides.



Not true I'm afraid.  Saps were used, hence the troops known as "Sappers" in the Napoleonic Wars, another example of 19th century tactics!


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## Underock1 (Jul 6, 2016)

Laurie said:


> Not true I'm afraid.  Saps were used, hence the troops known as "Sappers" in the Napoleonic Wars, another example of 19th century tactics!



The sappers in Napoleons army were basically engineers. More involved in building bridges and clearing roads to move the army forward.
 The original "saps" were open trenches used to approach fortifications. More commonly done during sieges in Marlborough's era. 
Actual tunneling _was_ used earlier to undermine castle walls. The tunnel would be dug and wooden props put in to support the wall. Then set on fire collapsing the wall.These were nothing like the tunnels in WWI with regard to their depth, length or destructiveness. 
In WWI a whole new science of "Tunnel Warfare" between opposing tunnels developed. Detecting enemy tunnels and collapsing them was a whole new thing.


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## Laurie (Jul 7, 2016)

"The sappers in Napoleons army were basically engineers."

In the British army they still are.  Sappers, and also Pioneers, are simply sub=sets of the Royal Engineers.


"Detecting enemy tunnels and collapsing them was a whole new thing."

I disagree.  Simply a development of an existing tactic.


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## Underock1 (Jul 7, 2016)

Laurie said:


> "The sappers in Napoleons army were basically engineers."
> 
> In the British army they still are.  Sappers, and also Pioneers, are simply sub=sets of the Royal Engineers.
> 
> ...



I agree with Warrigal but I'm a peace loving guy. As you will.


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## Laurie (Jul 7, 2016)

It's only opinions after all!


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## Underock1 (Jul 7, 2016)

Laurie said:


> It's only opinions after all!



Maybe. Maybe not. :wiggle:  This got more pointed then I intended. I was just supporting Warri's opinion. Peace.


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## oakapple (Jul 9, 2016)

Just read a good book called 'The Somme Stations' by Andrew Martin (novel) his books are all set in the late 1890's to the 1920's, and his main character Jim Stringer is a railway policeman.He works out of the York Station ( Northern England) but in fact he goes to other places ,even India.There are about ten books in the series,as he gets older, the books get better!This one, when he joins up and is sent to the front is brilliant.There is always a murder to solve, but the novels are full of so much else and are quintessentially English.You don't need to be interested in railways to like the books, but it adds a dimension to them, and I have learned quite a bit.I really recommend this book, also 'The Last Train To Scarborough' 'Death On A Branch Line' and
the book set in India ( Last Days Of The Raj?)


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## Butterfly (Jul 9, 2016)

I think I'd like those books.  I'm going to see if I can find them here.  Sound a bit like Foyle's War, which I LOVED!


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