# NHRA Top Fuel Skool and Some Nitro Runs



## FastTrax (Jan 6, 2023)

www.nhra.com/nhra

www.hotcars.com/top-fuel-dragsters-insane-facts/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hot_Rod_Association

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Fuel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane


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## Been There (Jan 7, 2023)

That's the first time I ever saw the engine blow off the back of a rail. Do you know if he was using Alcohol or burning Nitro? It appears to be a supercharger blowing off and that should mean he was using methane or nitro, whatever you want to call it, but it had to be some pretty highly explosive fuel to blow the whole top end from the engine. I have seen engines blow, but not to this extent. I know this isn't one of Garlit's rails. I have seen these dragsters run their rpm's up to over 7000 before releasing the clutch. there is no shifting. They only have one gear. The exciting part is when the car is pushed up to the Christmas Tree for pre staging and the burnouts begin. I love the same of methane. That's when you know you are at the track. 

I always thought that was pretty cool watching the flames coming out of the headers. These top fuel dragsters that use nitro burn a lot of fuel in a 1/4 mile. I have seen some of these dragsters go through 15 gallons of nitromethane fuel in a 1/4 mile run. They can burn over 5 gallons just doing burnouts to heat up their tires. The fuel pumps on these dragsters are pumping over 5 gallons a minute per each cylinder. Think about that. I would sooner use nitro with a super charger, instead of alcohol and no super charger. I think it just depends on what class the dragster or funny car is running in that would determine the fuel being used. I haven't been to the track in ages, but still watch some of it on TV. Problem with that is, some of these commentators are reading from a book and they get mixed up with fuels and fuel consumptions. 

People wonder how these guys can get 8000+ horsepower out of these engines. It's not hard to imagine if you know anything about fuel consumption and burning super high octane fuels over 105+, or other fuels such as alcohol or nitromethane and the fuel pumps are pumping over 5 gallons (maybe up to 8 gallons) a minute into each cylinder. That's one helluva' explosion going on inside the top end of these engines.


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## ArnoldC (Jan 7, 2023)

Unusual seeing this thread pop up.  Just yesterday visited the _Autoweek_ website to see how NHRA is faring these days.  Think the sanction is more into entertainment than racing anymore.  At least that was my take-away.

Miss the 'golden days' of the 1960's drag racing.  Power and speed has always been the forte of drag racing.  The way modern pro nitro racing is done seems such a squandering of resources and less than environmentally friendly.

It holds interest only in memories of times past for me.  Regrettably, it is what it is and no change in the program for the foreseeable future.


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## jimintoronto (Jan 7, 2023)

I was never interested in drag racing. I did and still do like oval track racing, because in my opinion it takes more skill to run consistent lap times ( with in 2 or 3 tenths of a second ) while trying to pass the other cars on the track. Set up is everything, and you can give away some HP if your car is strong through the corners and it will stick in whatever groove you run in. I have a very good long term friend named Gary Elliott who is still racing pro late model oval track cars at age 77. 2023 will be his 50th consecutive years of racing, and Quaker State Motor Oils have been his primary sponsor for ALL of that 50 year period. The longest continuing driver sponsorship in any form of racing world wide. 

Gary still runs 30 late model races a year, against 20 year olds, and he wins his share of them. Over the course of his career he has raced at 57 different tracks in Canada and the USA. Here is a link to his website. link. Gary Elliott Motorsports 

JimB


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## squatting dog (Jan 7, 2023)

jimintoronto said:


> I was never interested in drag racing. I did and still do like oval track racing, because in my opinion it takes more skill to run consistent lap times ( with in 2 or 3 tenths of a second ) while trying to pass the other cars on the track. Set up is everything, and you can give away some HP if your car is strong through the corners and it will stick in whatever groove you run in. I have a very good long term friend named Gary Elliott who is still racing pro late model oval track cars at age 77. 2023 will be his 50th consecutive years of racing, and Quaker State Motor Oils have been his primary sponsor for ALL of that 50 year period. The longest continuing driver sponsorship in any form of racing world wide.
> 
> Gary still runs 30 late model races a year, against 20 year olds, and he wins his share of them. Over the course of his career he has raced at 57 different tracks in Canada and the USA. Here is a link to his website. link. Gary Elliott Motorsports
> 
> JimB


Tell him to keep it up. Still has a little way's to go to match the ageless Red Farmer.  

https://www.wvtm13.com/article/red-farmer-nascar-pneumonia-75-years-of-racing/42218918


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## ArnoldC (Jan 7, 2023)

Always good seeing the sport.  Even stagnated as it is now.  Times now find me following the NHRA Factory Stock Showdown (F/SS) - sort of.  Now that wheelie bars and parachutes are part of the package, my interest is waning (again).  Hard to find a car on the showroom floor with either of those accessories.  My opinion is F/SS finds itself circling the drain and migrating into a Pro Stock Lite half-series.

Thinking back, wish now that Brunton (sic?) Smith had followed through with buying NHRA Pro and separating it from NHRA Sportsman. It's even difficult to find any sportsman racing results so not surprised it has a less than loyal following.  It's all about the Pro cars and motorcycles which to me all look alike and run alike.


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## squatting dog (Jan 7, 2023)

ArnoldC said:


> Unusual seeing this thread pop up.  Just yesterday visited the _Autoweek_ website to see how NHRA is faring these days.  Think the sanction is more into entertainment than racing anymore.  At least that was my take-away.
> 
> Miss the 'golden days' of the 1960's drag racing.  Power and speed has always been the forte of drag racing.  The way modern pro nitro racing is done seems such a squandering of resources and less than environmentally friendly.
> 
> It holds interest only in memories of times past for me.  Regrettably, it is what it is and no change in the program for the foreseeable future.


Same here. Way back, ran  C/A with the 33, and D/mp with the 55, and had a blast.


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## FastTrax (Jan 7, 2023)

jimintoronto said:


> I was never interested in drag racing. I did and still do like oval track racing, because in my opinion it takes more skill to run consistent lap times ( with in 2 or 3 tenths of a second ) while trying to pass the other cars on the track. Set up is everything, and you can give away some HP if your car is strong through the corners and it will stick in whatever groove you run in. I have a very good long term friend named Gary Elliott who is still racing pro late model oval track cars at age 77. 2023 will be his 50th consecutive years of racing, and Quaker State Motor Oils have been his primary sponsor for ALL of that 50 year period. The longest continuing driver sponsorship in any form of racing world wide.
> 
> Gary still runs 30 late model races a year, against 20 year olds, and he wins his share of them. Over the course of his career he has raced at 57 different tracks in Canada and the USA. Here is a link to his website. link. Gary Elliott Motorsports
> 
> JimB



Like boxing, wrestling, the martial arts, tennis, chess and other types of one on one sports it's mano-a-mano. No team help, just you and him. The ultimate test of man.


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## jimintoronto (Jan 7, 2023)

FastTrax said:


> Like boxing, wrestling, the martial arts, tennis, chess and other types of one on one sports it's mano-a-mano. No team help, just you and him. The ultimate test of man.


I will disagree with your words. In racing the team members are VERY important to the success or failure of the driver on the track. When I was competing in local oval track racing, I put a lot of my trust in the guy who built my engines, and my mechanic who did the set up of my car at each different race track.

 We raced at 6 different tracks during our 24 week race season. EACH of them was different in a number of ways, including the length of the track, the pavement of the surface, the degree of banking in the corners, the width of the track ( how many racing grooves did it have) was the race in the day time or at night, what time of the year was the race, what was the air temperature at the time, and most importantly, what were the other drivers set ups like ? The phrase "we missed the set up to day " is frequently heard after a race is over. The difference between being well set up and being off, can be as little as 3/10's of a second per lap. Over a 50 lap race that works out to being 4 laps down behind the faster cars. It can be as little as the rebound rate of the right front shock absorber you choose to install , or the rear gear ratio set you have installed in the rear axle. Or a combination of factors that may make your car a bit slower than someone else. 

Racing is not a individual sport, it is a team sport.     JimB.


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## Sawfish (Jan 7, 2023)

I think that I saw some drag races on TV within the last 1-2 years and the fuel classes were running what looked to be 1/8 mile instead of 1/4.

Can anyone add info to this?


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## Sawfish (Jan 7, 2023)

Been There said:


> That's the first time I ever saw the engine blow off the back of a rail. Do you know if he was using Alcohol or burning Nitro? It appears to be a supercharger blowing off and that should mean he was using methane or nitro, whatever you want to call it, but it had to be some pretty highly explosive fuel to blow the whole top end from the engine. I have seen engines blow, but not to this extent. I know this isn't one of Garlit's rails. I have seen these dragsters run their rpm's up to over 7000 before releasing the clutch. there is no shifting. They only have one gear. The exciting part is when the car is pushed up to the Christmas Tree for pre staging and the burnouts begin. I love the same of methane. That's when you know you are at the track.
> 
> I always thought that was pretty cool watching the flames coming out of the headers. These top fuel dragsters that use nitro burn a lot of fuel in a 1/4 mile. I have seen some of these dragsters go through 15 gallons of nitromethane fuel in a 1/4 mile run. They can burn over 5 gallons just doing burnouts to heat up their tires. The fuel pumps on these dragsters are pumping over 5 gallons a minute per each cylinder. Think about that. I would sooner use nitro with a super charger, instead of alcohol and no super charger. I think it just depends on what class the dragster or funny car is running in that would determine the fuel being used. I haven't been to the track in ages, but still watch some of it on TV. Problem with that is, some of these commentators are reading from a book and they get mixed up with fuels and fuel consumptions.
> 
> People wonder how these guys can get 8000+ horsepower out of these engines. It's not hard to imagine if you know anything about fuel consumption and burning super high octane fuels over 105+, or other fuels such as alcohol or nitromethane and the fuel pumps are pumping over 5 gallons (maybe up to 8 gallons) a minute into each cylinder. That's one helluva' explosion going on inside the top end of these engines.


Let's see...

If the fuel mixture ignited and blew the supercharger off of the top of the block, does this sorta imply that the fuel path, down from the supercharger, thru the intake manifold, past the intake valve(s) in any given cylinder, were open at ignition, allowing the ignited fuel charge in that cylinder to travel back up the manifold and into the compression lobes of the supercharger?

Failed intake valve?

Just guessing, but this kinda stuff is fun!


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## FastTrax (Jan 7, 2023)

Sports may be a team effort however my point was in certain events the end run is the two actually competing. No more, no less. Thanks for your post.


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## Been There (Jan 7, 2023)

Sawfish said:


> Let's see...
> 
> If the fuel mixture ignited and blew the supercharger off of the top of the block, does this sorta imply that the fuel path, down from the supercharger, thru the intake manifold, past the intake valve(s) in any given cylinder, were open at ignition, allowing the ignited fuel charge in that cylinder to travel back up the manifold and into the compression lobes of the supercharger?
> 
> ...


Well, I am not that well versed in what you a referring to, but if it helps and makes sense, I know from personal experience that when these types of vehicles, or dragsters as they are called, which we used to call them rails, are rolled onto the track, the driver will do burnouts and also as the Christmas Tree begins to go through it’s lights, the driver will start to rev the motor while keeping his foot on the brake and clutch. Doing this will raise the pressure in the fuel line, so when the driver releases his foot from the brake and clutch, the pressure that has built up in the fuel line, along with the super charger being at high rpm’s, you should expect a very quick takeoff.


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## Sawfish (Jan 7, 2023)

Been There said:


> Well, I am not that well versed in what you a referring to, but if it helps and makes sense, I know from personal experience that when these types of vehicles, or dragsters as they are called, which we used to call them rails, are rolled onto the track, the driver will do burnouts and also as the Christmas Tree begins to go through it’s lights, the driver will start to rev the motor while keeping his foot on the brake and clutch. Doing this will raise the pressure in the fuel line, so when the driver releases his foot from the brake and clutch, the pressure that has built up in the fuel line, along with the super charger being at high rpm’s, you should expect a very quick takeoff.


It was a lot of fun to see these meets in HS, in central CA.


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## squatting dog (Jan 7, 2023)

OOOPs... little heavy on the nitro.


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## Been There (Sunday at 3:49 AM)

Sawfish said:


> It was a lot of fun to see these meets in HS, in central CA.


In my early years, I raced on the east coast and was a member of the AHRA. I did that because there was less competition, but I never had a sponsor with deep pockets and if you don't have someone helping to pay the bills, you're screwed, unless you are a multi millionaire yourself, which I wasn't back then. It costs a lot of money to keep a car on the track and travel from track to track. I will say this, I may left the racing theater broke, but I made a lot of friends along the way and still remain friends with some of them today. Of course, a few has pass passed away, regretfully. My favorite mechanic and know-it-all was the late Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins from Easton, Pennsylvania. I was also a huge fan of Tommy Ivo, although I never met him. His articles in the racing magazines were real great reading material. The guy must be an outstanding racing engineer.


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## Sawfish (Sunday at 7:27 AM)

Been There said:


> In my early years, I raced on the east coast and was a member of the AHRA. I did that because there was less competition, but I never had a sponsor with deep pockets and if you don't have someone helping to pay the bills, you're screwed, unless you are a multi millionaire yourself, which I wasn't back then. It costs a lot of money to keep a car on the track and travel from track to track. I will say this, I may left the racing theater broke, but I made a lot of friends along the way and still remain friends with some of them today. Of course, a few has pass passed away, regretfully. My favorite mechanic and know-it-all was the late Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins from Easton, Pennsylvania. I was also a huge fan of Tommy Ivo, although I never met him. His articles in the racing magazines were real great reading material. The guy must be an outstanding racing engineer.


Ivo was the guy with the four Buicks, right?

Didn't really work well, but the audacity of it...wow!

And those guys with the Allisons...


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## Been There (Sunday at 7:46 AM)

Sawfish said:


> Ivo was the guy with the four Buicks, right?
> 
> Didn't really work well, but the audacity of it...wow!
> 
> And those guys with the Allisons...


Ivo did design and build a 4-engine Buick. I presume your talking about the Allisons in NASCAR? I’m not a real NASCAR fan, but I used to pull for Jeff Gordon, #24 car, after I met him at a benefit in North Carolina for a kid’s hospital and we were playing golf down there.


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## Sawfish (Sunday at 8:02 AM)

Been There said:


> Ivo did design and build a 4-engine Buick. I presume your talking about the Allisons in NASCAR? I’m not a real NASCAR fan, but I used to pull for Jeff Gordon, #24 car, after I met him at a benefit in North Carolina for a kid’s hospital and we were playing golf down there.


There were some rails that had Allisons back in the early 60s. I saw pictures of them in Hot Rod, which I used to like to read back then.

But that's all I know about this stuff, really. I just liked it.


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## Been There (Sunday at 8:14 AM)

Sawfish said:


> There were some rails that had Allisons back in the early 60s. I saw pictures of them in Hot Rod, which I used to like to read back then.
> 
> But that's all I know about this stuff, really. I just liked it.


Early 60’s. I was born in ‘61, so I probably missed those, but I read Hot Rod magazine, which was my favorite magazine. I thought HR Mag was into more technical stuff than Motor Trend, which seemed to me was more about design of different cars.

Did you save the magazines? I did, until I retired from the military and then I had to get rid of some things before coming home. But, just in case you did save any of the magazines, do you happen to have this one?


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## Sawfish (Sunday at 8:20 AM)

Been There said:


> Early 60’s. I was born in ‘61, so I probably missed those, but I read Hot Rod magazine, which was my favorite magazine. I thought HR Mag was into more technical stuff than Motor Trend, which seemed to me was more about design of different cars.
> 
> Did you save the magazines? I did, until I retired from the military and then I had to get rid of some things before coming home. But, just in case you did save any of the magazines, do you happen to have this one?
> 
> View attachment 261241


Nope. I was all done by that time. Probably never read one after 1965-66. I was born in 47.

Yes, they seemed technical, more so than Motor Trend or Road and Track. And I also like the way it showed people modifying existing stock equipment with cams, machine shop work (heads, etc) and exhaust and fuel systems.

I just liked stuff like that, and still do, but different stuff.


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## Sawfish (Sunday at 8:25 AM)

Been There said:


> Early 60’s. I was born in ‘61, so I probably missed those, but I read Hot Rod magazine, which was my favorite magazine. I thought HR Mag was into more technical stuff than Motor Trend, which seemed to me was more about design of different cars.
> 
> Did you save the magazines? I did, until I retired from the military and then I had to get rid of some things before coming home. But, just in case you did save any of the magazines, do you happen to have this one?
> 
> View attachment 261241


Hah! I found a link to an article!

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/06/allison-power/


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## jimintoronto (Sunday at 8:32 AM)

When I read Allison's I immediately thought of the WW2 era V12 aircraft engine that was a copy of the Rolls Royce Merlin engine that powered the Hurricane , the Spitfire, and the DeHaviland Mosquito. Post WW2 those V12's were available as war surplus , and many of them ended up in Unlimited Hydro Plane race boats like Miss America, and Miss Canada. In the modern era the Tractor Pull guys use the V12's as their power unit. I once saw a Unlimited Hydro Plane boat with four Rolls Royce  V 12's in it, two side by side and another two side by side behind the first two. 48 exhaust pipes so you could hear it a number of miles away. The owner was from Clayton New York, which is the home of the Classic Wooden Boat Museum of America. JimB.


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## squatting dog (Sunday at 2:25 PM)

Sawfish said:


> Ivo was the guy with the four Buicks, right?
> 
> Didn't really work well, but the audacity of it...wow!
> 
> And those guys with the Allisons...


Ahhh. TV Tommy IVO. What a showman.  The 4 engine "Wagon Master".
Then there was E J Potter... aka the Michigan Madman and his Allison powered Plymouth, that preceded the Allison powered Dart.


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## ArnoldC (Monday at 5:37 AM)

Regrets, I have many.  But this is probably the biggest of all.  Not building the Triumph 'Top Fuel' drag bike, circa 1960's.  Was in the Air Force then and had neither the time nor resources to follow through.  But being young and dumb gave it a heck of a try.

Found this image online and it pretty well is a match to what I started the build on.  The memory of what might have been lingers on. . .


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## oldman (Monday at 8:40 AM)

Sawfish said:


> Hah! I found a link to an article!
> 
> https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/06/allison-power/


I remember reading about Art Arfons and Craig Breedlove when they were both trying to outdo one another running on the Salt Flats. Those guys were crazy. I also visited Arfon’s shop outside of Akron, I think. I also believe racing was in his son’s blood as well.

There was a racing shop where my cousin lived in Chardon, Ohio. The owner was Ron Hutter. I never seen a motor shop so clean as Hutter’s. He built engines for both NASCAR drivers and drag racers.

There’s a fellow that lives just north of me that was and still is in the racing business. Bruce Larson has built something like an 4000 horsepower engine. Maybe I have a picture. Let me look.


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## Sawfish (Monday at 11:01 AM)

ArnoldC said:


> Regrets, I have many.  But this is probably the biggest of all.  Not building the Triumph 'Top Fuel' drag bike, circa 1960's.  Was in the Air Force then and had neither the time nor resources to follow through.  But being young and dumb gave it a heck of a try.
> 
> Found this image online and it pretty well is a match to what I started the build on.  The memory of what might have been lingers on. . .


Great to see!

After I had some money in the 70's I bought  a new 77 Bonneville. I would have preferred ones made in the 60s, but still, this was a very fun bike to ride around on.

But gosh, you had to travel with wrenches, because they shook a lot of stuff loose!


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## squatting dog (Monday at 6:15 PM)

oldman said:


> I remember reading about Art Arfons and Craig Breedlove when they were both trying to outdo one another running on the Salt Flats. Those guys were crazy. I also visited Arfon’s shop outside of Akron, I think. I also believe racing was in his son’s blood as well.
> 
> There was a racing shop where my cousin lived in Chardon, Ohio. The owner was Ron Hutter. I never seen a motor shop so clean as Hutter’s. He built engines for both NASCAR drivers and drag racers.
> 
> ...


Saw Bruce in action back in 1966 when he was a young spud at New York National Speedway.  
Hutter made horsepower for some of the best Mods in the business, and in my mind, the best modified driver in the business... Ritchie Evans.  (R.I.P)


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## FastTrax (Monday at 7:32 PM)

Sawfish said:


> I think that I saw some drag races on TV within the last 1-2 years and the fuel classes were running what looked to be 1/8 mile instead of 1/4.
> 
> Can anyone add info to this?



The distance was reduced because of the Scott Kalitta tragedy.

www.autoweek.com/racing/nhra/a35540252/why-an-nhra-drag-strip-is-1000-feet/

www.racingjunk.com/news/the-nhra-comeback-looks-promising-but-will-it-be/

www.rapidtables.com/convert/length/mile-to-feet.html



www.fanbuzz.com/racing/scott-kalitta-death/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Kalitta






Amateur video:


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