# Plants Can Tell When They're Being Eaten. What Will The Vegans Do.



## WhatInThe (Oct 26, 2014)

Plants can tell when they are being eaten. 

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/10/plants-can-tell-theyre-eaten/

What will the vegans do now. Oh my...


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## AprilT (Oct 26, 2014)

It's a living breathing organism like every other thing that has a beginning and end as we do, so those who think they aren't causing pain by just eating meat.  Bite me each leaf, you are tearing the limb off of a living something or other.  layful:


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## Falcon (Oct 26, 2014)

Then, Why don't they SAY something ?


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## AprilT (Oct 26, 2014)

They do, we just can't hear them at their decimal point.


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## Meanderer (Oct 26, 2014)




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## SifuPhil (Oct 26, 2014)

Falcon said:


> Then, Why don't they SAY something ?



They're just shrinking violets ...


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## Meanderer (Oct 26, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> They're just shrinking violets ...



They should join the club.


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## AprilT (Oct 26, 2014)

All of you are crazier than I am and that saying a lot.  :grin::rofl1:


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## Meanderer (Oct 26, 2014)

View attachment 10652


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 26, 2014)

WhatInThe said:


> Plants can tell when they are being eaten.
> 
> http://modernfarmer.com/2014/10/plants-can-tell-theyre-eaten/
> 
> What will the vegans do now. Oh my...



More to the point, what are *you *going to do?

If you believe it to be true, then you should do as the vegans do and *live by your principles*, even though life would be very much easier not to.

Become a fruitarian. Here's a link for you
http://www.thefruitarian.com


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 26, 2014)

One small, inconclusive study, concluded that thale cress (?) may or may not release a toxin to try to prevent caterpillars eating the leaves and on the strength of this, apparently, every plant in the plant kingdom has a degree of conciousness equivalent to that of an animal! Tenuous to say the least.

Translating, it's a case of  "vegans 'kill' carrots, therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience". 

Go over to YouTube and seek out 'If slaughterhouses had glass walls', decide for yourself if it is quite the same.


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## AprilT (Oct 26, 2014)

I'll have some of what he/she's having.


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## Meanderer (Oct 26, 2014)




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## Son_of_Perdition (Oct 26, 2014)

Fruitarians will eat only what falls (or would fall) naturally from a plant: that is, foods that can be harvested without killing or harming the plant. These foods consist primarily of culinary fruits, nuts, and seeds. Fruitarians eat only fallen fruit. Some do not eat grains, believing it is unnatural to do so, and some fruitarians feel that it is improper for humans to eat seeds as they contain future plants, or nuts and seeds, or any foods besides juicy fruits.


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## Debby (Oct 26, 2014)

AprilT said:


> It's a living breathing organism like every other thing that has a beginning and end as we do, so those who think they aren't causing pain by just eating meat.  Bite me each leaf, you are tearing the limb off of a living something or other.  layful:




I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.  Could you clarify?


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## Debby (Oct 26, 2014)

The vegan lifestyle operates on the basis of doing the least harm, lightest footprint, etc., and veganism fills the bill very aptly.  A vegan lifestyle includes not just the food that's consumed, but also the clothing that's worn.  It includes animals as entertainment, it considers the animals that are abused for the sake of the latest body wash, etc. Vegans also acknowledge that there are always going to be collateral animal deaths in harvesting plant foods for consumption, but they are not deliberate deaths as are the 10 billion animals that are raised and killed in the US every year.  So on top of the deliberate deaths of all those food animals, you can add in the collateral deaths that result from the harvesting of the millions of acres needed to raise food for all those animals. 


Studies have also been done that show a vegan diet to be more sustainable environmentally than a meat inclusive diet.

"...Both the meat-based average American diet and the lactoovovegetarian diet require significant quantities of nonrenewable fossil energy to produce. Thus, both food systems are not sustainable in the long term based on heavy fossil energy requirements. However, the meat-based diet requires more energy, land, and water resources than the lactoovovegetarian diet. In this limited sense, the lactoovovegetarian diet is more sustainable than the average American meat-based diet."http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.long

The approximate total number of acres used to produce animals and their food in America is around 1200 million acres.  Compare that to about 3 million acres used to produce plants for direct human consumption.  Range and pasture land 788 million acres, 227 million acres to grow corn and soy to feed animals, forest/grazing 245 million acres.  http://www.westernwatersheds.org/watmess/watmess_2002/2002html_summer/article6.htm

So no matter how you look at it, the vegan diet causes less harm for both plants and animals ,even philosophically than a meat inclusive one.  If the concern truly was for the 'poor plants', then at the very least, the meat inclusive diet is definitely worse as there are 1200,000,000 acres of plants suffering exclusively for the sake of a meat inclusive diet.


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## Shirley (Oct 26, 2014)

I really, really hate to say this but it sounds like a bunch of nuts to me.


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## Melody1948 (Oct 26, 2014)

I talk and whisper to my plants, especially to my orchids.  They live a long time for me, I guess they like what I have to say. .  Tonight I will have to reassure them that I am not going to eat them. lol


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## SifuPhil (Oct 27, 2014)

The problem with a vegan lifestyle, at least as I've come to understand it, is that unless you are very knowledgeable about vegan food it is difficult to almost impossible to ingest enough correct proteins to remain healthy. Yes, you can eat beans until you become your own wind-energy source, but it isn't a balanced source.

Just about every true vegan that I've met in over 50 years has looked like a skeleton - that cannot be any healthier than a carnivore looking like a pregnant water buffalo. The ones that look "normal" are usually not true vegans.

Plus, our teeth are a big hint that we are meant to consume meat ... we have more than just molars ...


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 27, 2014)

My strength is my compassion

Wonderful article/video

http://www.freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/patrik-baboumian-strength-is-compassion

NB: The weight he lifted and carried to break the world record was equivalent to 22 sacks of potatoes - or a large horse.

No meat, no poultry, no fish, no eggs, no dairy.... Just plant food.

There's nothing 'magic' about meat. Protein is protein. There's plenty of complete protein in plant food, and if you know what you're doing, there's no problem.

And

http://ww.greatveganathletes.com


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 27, 2014)

I will make sure to stick them in boiling water from now on just like I do lobsters...


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm sticking mine in boiling water from now on just like I do lobsters...


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## Justme (Oct 27, 2014)

Humans are meat and plant eaters, I don't have a problem with that!


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## Melody1948 (Oct 27, 2014)

I tried the veggie thing, but got sick.  I need a balanced diet myself.  I couldn't eat enough veggies, then of course I worried about all the chemicals.  I know there is chemicals in everything now, unless you can afford to eat organic all the time.  At my age, I think I am not going to worry about it anymore.  My mom lived to be 94 years old and she ate everything she felt like eating and the only thing she ever had wrong with her was high blood pressure and it was kept at bay with her medication.

When I went back on meat, I found I had much more energy.  I felt better all over.  This is a great thread, very interesting to hear all the different views.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm not prejudice as some of you seem to be. I eat meat, fruit, leaves, roots, tubers, grains, nuts, eggs, and berries. Variety is the key to good health.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> The problem with a vegan lifestyle, at least as I've come to understand it, is that unless you are very knowledgeable about vegan food it is difficult to almost impossible to ingest enough correct proteins to remain healthy. Yes, you can eat beans until you become your own wind-energy source, but it isn't a balanced source.
> 
> Just about every true vegan that I've met in over 50 years has looked like a skeleton - that cannot be any healthier than a carnivore looking like a pregnant water buffalo. The ones that look "normal" are usually not true vegans.
> 
> Plus, our teeth are a big hint that we are meant to consume meat ... we have more than just molars ...




No it's not difficult to impossible to eat healthy on a vegan lifestyle.  Every last food has the kinds of enzymes that make up protein and your amazing body has the ability to combine them as needed to provide the protein necessary.  Even grass has 'proteins' in it otherwise horses couldn't get as big and strong as they are.  Peanut butter on brown toast is a complete protein.  Rice and beans is a complete protein.  Quinoa is a complete protein.  A lentil stew with a handful of green peas in it would provide you with complete proteins.  I'm a vegan now for almost 8 years, and I'm not a skeleton.  My weight though is exactly what it was when I was 22 and I have well developed muscle despite my almost 60 years on this earth. And I guarantee you, I am a true vegan.  Haven't touched ANY animal products in the past 8 years and before that I was vegetarian for about 15.

Heck my husband is 63 years old and he doesn't have the same stomach on him that his brother and his best friend have and my husband has been eating my cooking all along.  His weight is wonderful for his age (and he's totally sedentary by the way) and this year when the doctor did the complete blood panels like they like to do for us oldsters, both our 'numbers' came out perfect.  In fact my doctor expressed to me that he wished his numbers were as good.

As for the teeth issue, complete fiction that they prove we are carnivores.  We have teeth that are more like horses teeth including the teensy little 'canines' that are actually more useful for stripping plant fibbers apart then for ripping out the throat of some terrified animal.  If you Google 'wolf teeth horses" you will discover that they also have teeny little 'canines' but that doesn't mean they are carnivores.  Our molars are flat for grinding our food, the front teeth for biting into fruits and veggies and our jaws move side to side like a cows or a horses and our jaws are not as strong as a carnivores.

That's not to say that we aren't able to eat meat, but truly our physiology is more herbivorous in design than carnivorous and that includes intestines, stomach acids, salivary acids, etc.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> I'm sticking mine in boiling water from now on just like I do lobsters...




Did you know that lobsters feel every bit of pain from that? 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...26ea9e-9e59-11e3-b8d8-94577ff66b28_story.html



And rkunsaw, I think 'prejudice' is an incorrect word to use.  Almost all who chose a vegan lifestyle do it for reasons of compassion which is totally different from being 'prejudiced' against meat.  We don't want to be involved in the violence of animal use or the causes of suffering.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm getting hungry. Time for some bacon and eggs.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> I'm getting hungry. Time for some bacon and eggs.




When people say things like this I'm reminded of an image I saw once.  It was a video of a pig farmer doing away with a sickly young pig.  He stood on it's chest so that it couldn't breath and it thrashed in fear and terror as it struggled to escape, to breathe, until finally it didn't struggle anymore.  It was tragic and it was not an unusual occurrence because that kind of brutality goes on in every barn across the country.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

The chicken is making a contribution...the pig is making a sacrifice.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 27, 2014)

Believe what you will, but that sort of thing doesn't happen. Humans are meant to eat meat and plants. If you prefer to eat like a sheep you are free to do so. Just don't put the rest of us down with some pretense of protecting animals. I am an animal lover.


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## Twixie (Oct 27, 2014)

I visit the health shop quite frequently...why is it the staff have all got greasy hair..zits..and are as white as a pint of milk..

They look ill!!


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Meanderer said:


> The chicken is making a contribution...the pig is making a sacrifice.



If you look at some videos of how egg layers are raised, you will see that they are making far more than just a contribution.  Their lives are horrendous, filthy and painful and end in transport for up to 26 hours to processing plants where they are subjected to further pain.

A hen who spends her entire life in a darkened shed, laying eggs every day and getting absolutely no exercise will always suffer from severe osteoporosis so when they are being dragged out of the cages and thrown into the transport cages, broken bones are frequent and I believe can amount to about 24% of those birds having broken bones while they are being manhandled.  

Not to mention that the air inside those sheds is filled with ammonia and dust that sees workers wearing masks to protect their lungs but the birds get no relief.  Too frequently too, hens die in those cages and their bodies are not removed and so you will have six hens squeezed into a cage with the rotting corpse of their 'sister'.  

What's more, sometimes to boost egg production, they are starved for up to fourteen days.  This causes the hens to moult and then once the moult is done, egg production resumes and it's often better than it was prior.  However, the life expectancy of a laying hen is still only about 72 weeks or one year from the time they begin laying to the time they are trucked for slaughter.

None of this sounds like a contribution.  To me it sounds more like torture over a period of 72 weeks.


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## rkunsaw (Oct 27, 2014)

This I agree with, Debby. ( scary isn't it?)  That's why I raised my own chickens for years and now buy free range eggs locally.


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## Davey Jones (Oct 27, 2014)

I thought I heard that palm tree say something when it fell after being cut down,Ill use a tape recorder for the next tree.

I swear it said "TIMBERRRRR"!!!!!.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Twixie said:


> I visit the health shop quite frequently...why is it the staff have all got greasy hair..zits..and are as white as a pint of milk..
> 
> They look ill!!




First of all, do you know for sure that all those people are vegan or even vegetarian?  Just because they work in a health food store is no guarantee that they are.  

Second of all, everybody is different and even on what would be considered an optimum meat inclusive diet, you can have people who are overweight, have bad complexions, etc.  You have to take into account what other types of foods they may indulge in.  Too much sugar, too much wheat, too much alcohol, etc. can affect not only the meat eater but also the veg'n.   You have to take into account genetics as well, some folks have more sensitive skin than others or allergies that show up in their appearance, etc.

And for every sickly looking vegan, I can show you 1000 meat eaters who look awful.  My husbands brother for one and his best friend for another.  They both have huge bellies that make even tying their shoes difficult and the friend is diabetic.  Our neighbours across the street also have terrible health and they eat meat.  

And to tell you the truth, I can give you links to at least a dozen studies that show that a plant only diet is better in terms of health outcomes than a meat inclusive diet.  Here are only four of them:

- Mayo Clinic:  Vegetarian Diet and diabetes
 http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/diabetes/AN00845


- Journal of the American College of Nutrition:  Vegan Diets and Cardiovascular Health
 http://www.jacn.org/content/17/5/407.full


University of Oxford:  Veg diet reduces heart disease risk by up to 1/3
 http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2013/	130130.html


Pub Med:  Vegan proteins may reduce risk of cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10687887 



Recently I read an interesting article that said that a study seems to indicate that the gladiators of ancient Rome (all fierce and strong men) subsisted on a vegetarian diet.  If so and taking into consideration the large numbers of modern athletes who exist on a plant diet, it would appear that it's entirely possible to be in prime condition from a veg. diet.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/24/the-diet-of-roman-gladiat_n_6044622.html


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## Davey Jones (Oct 27, 2014)

rkunsaw;[FONT=arial black said:
			
		

> *Humans are meant to eat meat and plant*152928]Believe what you will, but that sort of thing doesn't happen. s.[/FONT] If you prefer to eat like a sheep you are free to do so. Just don't put the rest of us down with some pretense of protecting animals. I am an animal lover.




Sez Who ??? God ??


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> This I agree with, Debby. ( scary isn't it?)  That's why I raised my own chickens for years and now buy free range eggs locally.




Why is it scary to agree on what is truth?  ( I know, you're just being lighthearted in your comment)  I have a couple hens too but they were rescues from a friend who was moving from farm to town and didn't know what to do with the last two of her chickens so I gave them a home about four years ago.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

I think when you 'love' something, you do what you can to not cause it to suffer.  Animal using industries do little in that regard.  Cows loose their babies, chickens languish crammed into filthy darkened sheds, sows are immobilized their entire lives, piglets are operated on while awake and without painkillers, and when any of these helpless animals are transported, it can take place over several days during which time they get no food or water.  Love?

As for the post that started this all, plants feeling pain?  Well they don't have nerve ends to transmit 'pain' signals, they don't have brains or pain receptors to receive pain signals and they never evolved feet, fins or wings to escape 'pain'.  Animals on the other hand did evolve with all of those.

Is it not more likely that the movements of chemicals in plants at the time a leaf is cut or whatever is a response to a drop in 'hydraulic' pressure.  A couple months ago, we took our tractor into the woods, down a slope and inadvertently hit a rock on the underside.  An hour later, we discovered the puddle of hydraulic fluid underneath the tractor.  Nothing was actually broken except how a seal or gasket was sitting at that joint and the little opening that resulted was enough for the pressure inside the lines to force the fluid to run out.


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## tnthomas (Oct 27, 2014)

My SeniorSneakers trainer is a serious vegan, is 57 but could easily 'pass' for being 37.  I'm trying to move away from traditional fat-salt-sugar laden eating to more healthy cuisine, but I'll always eat meat, just much less *red*....alot more* chickens*.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

rkunsaw said:


> Believe what you will, but that sort of thing doesn't happen. Humans are meant to eat meat and plants. If you prefer to eat like a sheep you are free to do so. Just don't put the rest of us down with some pretense of protecting animals. I am an animal lover.




I'm assuming this comment is a response to mine concerning the image that I've seen.  You don't believe it doesn't happen?  Well I took the time to find the image I mentioned and here it is.  And this video is similar to several that have been broadcasted on a Canadian news program that is called W5, in the past year.  The Canadian videos were by Mercy For Animals Canada and show what is typical in pig barns across the nation.  It is violent and it is disturbing so you are forewarned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOHrnhIS2H4


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

tnthomas said:


> My SeniorSneakers trainer is a serious vegan, is 57 but could easily 'pass' for being 37.  I'm trying to move away from traditional fat-salt-sugar laden eating to more healthy cuisine, but I'll always eat meat, just much less *red*....alot more* chickens*.




That might be nice for you, but you should know that chickens suffer far more than beef cattle do.  At least the beef cattle spend a portion of their lives on grassy pastures and even in the feedlots, at least they have air to breathe minus the fecal content in the dust.


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## Twixie (Oct 27, 2014)

If God didn't mean us to eat animals..why are they made of meat!!


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

Debby said:


> If you look at some videos of how egg layers are raised, you will see that they are making far more than just a contribution.  Their lives are horrendous, filthy and painful and end in transport for up to 26 hours to processing plants where they are subjected to further pain.
> 
> A hen who spends her entire life in a darkened shed, laying eggs every day and getting absolutely no exercise will always suffer from severe osteoporosis so when they are being dragged out of the cages and thrown into the transport cages, broken bones are frequent and I believe can amount to about 24% of those birds having broken bones while they are being manhandled.
> 
> ...


You sound like a person who is obsessed!


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Meanderer said:


> You sound like a person who is obsessed!




No, I'm someone who likes to KNOW about the things that touch my heart so I researched thoroughly even as I was making changes in my own life.  I always thought that I 'love animals' but when I began to realize how animals are treated by people, I began to realize that more accurately, I love some animals (dogs, kitties, pets, horses) and others I only liked but not well enough to quit being part of their suffering.....until finally I was ready to really love all of them.


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## Twixie (Oct 27, 2014)

Debby..I worked in a meaty environment..i love animals..I love children to the point I have fostered 12 of them...I have ''saved'' horses from the abbatoir...i have fostered many dogs until a suitable owner can be found...

It is not a dislike of animals..some animals are just made to be eaten!!


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## rt3 (Oct 27, 2014)

living "stuff" has a measurable force field around called Kirlian. Its measured by a difference in applied voltage against a known background voltage. Regardless of the pro and cons, plants treated with pesticides, and/or cooked show a lower field than raw. Since "talking" is just a form of communication, which requires an alphabet (information and coding theory) yes plants do "talk".  Their alphabet is chemical, of which other plants and insects are can read. Humans are too dumb -- except for stuff like poison ivy, etc. And not ignoring that pot users "talk" to their stashes all the time. 


The presence of estrogen mimicking chemicals in everything we eat, (estrogen toxicity) is a more important topic, than vegan vs. the other guys. Low iron is the biggest health problem in the world, meat helps. 


I feel sorry for the snakes, pigs eat.   

we should eat tourists, after all their is a season on them.


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## Kitties (Oct 27, 2014)

Remember all the plants the animals ate before they were killed.

Really this gets on my nerves. I can't win anywhere. The vegans don't like me because I'm overweight (so therefore I'm a poor example and as someone else put it "bad for business) and I don't fit in anywhere else much.

I've come to the conclusion that veganism is a business to many organizations. Just another money maker for some. And a real commitment for others.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Twixie said:


> Debby..I worked in a meaty environment..i love animals..I love children to the point I have fostered 12 of them...I have ''saved'' horses from the abbatoir...i have fostered many dogs until a suitable owner can be found...
> 
> It is not a dislike of animals..some animals are just made to be eaten!!



Well it's wonderful that you have helped the way you have.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

Everyone has a different opinion.  I think that is healthy!


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## SifuPhil (Oct 27, 2014)

rt3 said:


> ... And not ignoring that pot users "talk" to their stashes all the time.



Of course - because our stashes talk to_ us_!  

"Phil ... hey, Phil! ... over here, buddy! Look! I'm covered in resin ... I'm_ glowing_ with it! ... you've had a tough day - let's chat ... "


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Kitties said:


> Remember all the plants the animals ate before they were killed.
> 
> Really this gets on my nerves. I can't win anywhere. The vegans don't like me because I'm overweight (so therefore I'm a poor example and as someone else put it "bad for business) and I don't fit in anywhere else much.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that veganism is a business to many organizations. Just another money maker for some. And a real commitment for others.




It's really too bad that you've gotten flack and all I can say is that people aren't really aware of how many reasons why people gain and/or can't loose weight and some of them don't have to do with how many calories are consumed!  I think it's more a case of ignorance on their part than it being a money-maker unless of course they sell 'vegan' food options.  If you know that you're doing all you can for yourself, then ignore them (I know, hard to do isn't it?) and just keep walking as lightly as you are.  Focus on the critters and love.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

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## SifuPhil (Oct 27, 2014)

I really don't believe that being overweight is the fault of meat being eaten. As I always tell the dieting dilettantes, calories in have to be less than calories out.

What I think Debby is seeing is the result of our non-physically-oriented lives. Take a vegan, have them sit in front of the TV with their bowl of healthy snacks long enough and you'll end up with a chubby vegan.


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## Falcon (Oct 27, 2014)

This is why I always have pizza delivered.  I couldn't stand to watch all those vegetable shoved into the oven.


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## Davey Jones (Oct 27, 2014)

Twixie said:


> If God didn't mean us to eat animals..why are they made of meat!!




God has nothing to do with what we eat . Didnt at one time they use to eat humans?

[h=1]Human Flesh Looks Like Beef, But the Taste Is More Elusive[/h][h=2]It's like pork. Or maybe veal.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/human-flesh-looks-beef-taste-more-elusive-180949562/?no-ist[/h]


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## Falcon (Oct 27, 2014)

Human flesh tastes just like missionary.  So I've heard.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> I really don't believe that being overweight is the fault of meat being eaten. As I always tell the dieting dilettantes, calories in have to be less than calories out.
> 
> What I think Debby is seeing is the result of our non-physically-oriented lives. Take a vegan, have them sit in front of the TV with their bowl of healthy snacks long enough and you'll end up with a chubby vegan.




Well then Phil, you'd be wrong to a degree.  My husband does exactly that and he eats vegan except he does eat seafood.  And his weight has actually gone down over the past few months without him actually dieting.  He went from about 163 (5'10") down to 158.  Mind you, I'm in charge of putting food in front of him so I do watch his portions.  But he is pretty much sedentary so the diet that he eats is extremely helpful in preventing obesity.  And as I've said before, his own brother who eats like most Americans and Canadians and doesn't snack a lot but is sedentary is very overweight/obese.  So similar genetics, different outcome.

As for the meat eating component to weight gain, that could well have something to do with choosing foods that not only  have meat or dairy in them but also the other 'baddies' as in excess sugars or starches that go hand in glove with those foods that contain meat.  Like a burger for example.  Not only are you getting meat, but you're getting a load of sugar simply from the condiments that they get slathered with and that bun is turned into a sugar which adds to your sugar load and then your body reacts by producing an burst of insulin which impacts your bodies ability to use that sugar for energy and instead you lay down fat cells.  It's been a while since I really looked at this so that's a really rough paraphrase, but I think you get the point.  

Following are three links to credible sources (to prove I'm not talking through my hat) that discuss meat consumption, obesity and veg'n diets.

- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:  Obesity and Veg'n Diets
 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/6/1267


-Cancer Research UK:  Obesity and red meat consumption are among factors blamed for an increase in bowel cancer rates among men.
http://news.sky.com/story/1072630/bowel-cancer-rates-soar-by-29-percent-for-men


Pub Med:  Vegan proteins may reduce risk of cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10687887


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

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## Son_of_Perdition (Oct 27, 2014)

Being born into and brought up in a cult like environment, then attaining adulthood and becoming a self-taught student on 'Human rights' I soon developed a better awareness of man's inhumanity to man.  If you look back throughout history you will read about the deplorable, horrible treatment rendered from those in authority and dominion over their subjects.  I have become an agnostic/freethinker with very little hope that things are changing for the better.  If you watch the news about the cultures spread around the world you soon realize that most humans do not think alike and have their own beliefs about what is right and wrong.

Examples:  The ancient Egyptians treatment of their subjects and the udder disdain they had for their 'rights', the early Romans and their methods of ruling.  The Crusades, the worldwide slave trade that still goes on today.  The Nazis, the Soviets, the Chinese, the Japanese and their extermination of whole generations of people that didn't think, worship and do as they did.  Man should be ashamed of his treatment of all things, humans as well as other animals.  I never understood how anyone could treat and murder small innocent children.  We have created serial killers, mass murders, our prisons are overflowing with those that have wronged someone or something.  Other than humans, the household cat is the only acknowledged serial killer. 

Maybe being a meat eater has it's downside as well.  But science has recently come up with the rationalization that if our ancestors hadn't acquired a taste for meat we wouldn't have developed our brain to what it is today.  But being a meat eater is not the problem, it's the unethical treatment of the animals that we as humans do to satisfy our consumption of meat.  I personally eat and have eaten meat since birth.  I recently had surgery to correct a problem with anemia, after my blood tests I was ordered by my doctor to get to the ER and have transfusions.  He couldn't understand how I was walking around with my low count.  While receiving the transfusions and the followup surgery I was instructed to consume as much red meat as possible during my recovery.  My nutritionist advised me against adopting a vegan diet.  My condition was not a result of my eating habits but a physical problem and an imbalance in my absorption of blood building nutrients. 

I've recovered and still consume red meats along with chicken, fish and eggs.  I purchase my eggs from a local farmer.  I had a small gentleman's farm back in the 70's/80's I raised pigs, chicken, cattle, sheep, goats and turkeys.  I sold them at the livestock auctions or to my co-workers and neighbors.  Not once did my animals suffer inhumane treatment, I even gave most of them names.  I had a quarter acre vegetable farm and sold corn, tomatoes, potatoes among other items.  I am not arguing with anyone about their choices other than to say we have much bigger problems that need our attention first.  It is not a Walgreen world out there.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

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## Happyflowerlady (Oct 27, 2014)

I remember reading an article (think it was in Reader's Digest) about plants being aware of things. The researchers had hooked the plant up to some kind of a meter that registered vibrations or other changes from them.  Then, they had a persson come in the room and just totally shred up one of the plants (right in front of the other plants). 
After that they had people walk through the room, one at a time. The plants did not show any reaction until the "plant-murderer" walked through the room, and then all of the vibrations just went crazy on the meter. 
Somehow, even wothout eyes or ears, the plants knew when one plant was viciously shredded, as well as exactly which person did the shredding. 
I think that a vegetarian or even a vegan diet is probably what would be the best for us; and if we did eat meat, then it should be killed fast and humanely, and not made to suffer as it is dying. 

As to whether we are designed to eat meat or not; I once read that you should look at a picture of a mutilated rabbit, and then one of a fresh apple or peach, and see which one stimulates your appetite.


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 27, 2014)

Meanderer said:


> You sound like a person who is obsessed!



She sounds like a person who has a heart of gold!


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## Knightofalbion (Oct 27, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> I really don't believe that being overweight is the fault of meat being eaten. As I always tell the dieting dilettantes, calories in have to be less than calories out.
> 
> What I think Debby is seeing is the result of our non-physically-oriented lives. Take a vegan, have them sit in front of the TV with their bowl of healthy snacks long enough and you'll end up with a chubby vegan.



Natural food is just that 'natural' with fibre. Processed food is calorie concentrated, with little or no fibre. Not only that but the typical western diet is highly acidic and an acid state is a fertile breeding ground for disease.
The health of the nation would be greatly enhanced by adopting a plant based diet - vegetables, fruit, nuts, seeds and healthy grains. (Such foods being largely alkaline and nutrient rich.)


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Being born ........we have much bigger problems that need our attention first.  It is not a Walgreen world out there.




Unfortunately the practise of eating meat can easily be added to that list of 'biggies' as it directly impacts the environment in a very drastic way.  Think deforestation (we need forests for their air and rain), water pollution, water depletion, air pollution (both as a result of animal related transport and as a result of the methane produced by billions of animals) and loss of biodiversity.  All of these impact all of us.

It can be safely said that meat consumption impacts us on three levels, health, environmental health and the spiritual aspect as in it presents us with the need to justify the abuse of billions of animals in ways that we would NEVER countenance if someone did it to their pet.  Do to a litter of puppies and their mother, what is done to a sow and her piglets, and the populace would demand vengeance.


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## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I remember reading an article (think it was in Reader's Digest) about plants being aware of things. The researchers had hooked the plant up to some kind of a meter that registered vibrations or other changes from them.  Then, they had a persson come in the room and just totally shred up one of the plants (right in front of the other plants).
> After that they had people walk through the room, one at a time. The plants did not show any reaction until the "plant-murderer" walked through the room, and then all of the vibrations just went crazy on the meter.
> Somehow, even wothout eyes or ears, the plants knew when one plant was viciously shredded, as well as exactly which person did the shredding.
> I think that a vegetarian or even a vegan diet is probably what would be the best for us; and if we did eat meat, then it should be killed fast and humanely, and not made to suffer as it is dying.
> ...




 I read of a Japanese scientist who discovered 'awareness' in water and later in metal and came across the linked video below.

In order for a plant (carrot) to feel pain, it would have to have a neural network and a brain. And the fact that plants have not evolved a way to sense danger and run from it as the animals have, suggests that pain is not high on their list of priorities.To date there has been no peer reviewed, relevant research into plants and pain that I am aware of.

However, this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvzsjcBtx8 will show you what happens when water is subjected to shows of emotion. It is a response to a vibration of negative or positive energy, just as plants respond to the energy that we give off. After all, at the most basic sub molecular level, we are all made of vibrating energy whether plants, water, people. Our very emotions are energy as are our thoughts.  Electrical impulses given off by by neurons in the brain.
Having viewed the really fascinating video Happyflowerlady, is it not highly possible that those plants are merely responding to the energy that every human gives off simply as a result of living.  If water can be affected....?

Here is a video that talks about the electricity in plants.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y which could well be supportive of my theory as to that experiment.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Oct 27, 2014)

Rabbits - easy and most economical meat to raise.  High in protein, their waste can be recycled directly into your garden without the problems of other animal waste.  It takes less ground to produce feed, you can raise all their feed on a smaller plot of ground than is required to produce one gallon of ethanol, not to mention how much area, chemicals and water it takes to produce high fructose corn syrup for your candy bar.   

 They don't require a large area to house them.  Where it takes one acre to support a beef cattle you can raise a whole bunch of rabbits.  Two breeding rabbits can produce more meat in one year than one beef cattle.  I raised them on my farm and the family couldn't eat them fast enough so I sold them to anyone who wanted to try them.  They are cleaner than chickens or turkeys.  Easy to butcher, skin and dress.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

Knightofalbion said:


> She sounds like a person who has a heart of gold!


I agree! I think we're both right!


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## rt3 (Oct 27, 2014)

Register your blender. Blender violence is the 3rd largest cause of dead plants. Animal violence being the first. 
Finding your wavelength is the first problem in any college Freshman physics class. 


Whipping dead horses is part of internet folk lore.


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## rt3 (Oct 27, 2014)

will show you what happens when water is subjected to shows of emotion. It is a response to a vibration of negative or positive energy, just as plants respond to the energy that we give off.

didn't they make a movie about that?  "Airbender" or something like that.


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## Meanderer (Oct 27, 2014)

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## SifuPhil (Oct 28, 2014)

Happyflowerlady said:


> ... As to whether we are designed to eat meat or not; I once read that you should look at a picture of a mutilated rabbit, and then one of a fresh apple or peach, and see which one stimulates your appetite.



One could also look at a picture of a decaying, maggot-laden apple lying in a puddle of mud, and then one of an expertly-prepared plate of hossenfeffer ...  that's hardly an unbiased test.


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## Meanderer (Oct 28, 2014)

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