# The Zombie System



## Susie (Oct 30, 2014)

http://www.spiegel.de/international...w-growth-and-growing-inequality-a-998598.html 

This article deals in detail with the decline of capitalism in the western world.
e.g. "uneven distribution of opportunity" by Bill Clinton.
A direct quote from article: "Harvard Larry Katz rails that U.S. society has come to resemble a deformed apartment building; the penthouse at the top is getting bigger and bigger; the lower levels are overcrowded; the middle levels are full of empty apartments, and the elevator has stopped running!"
The article is lengthy, some sections a little difficult, but worthy of further discussions, questions, answers, disagreement.
Do we have something to worry about?
Why Zombie???


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## Warrigal (Oct 30, 2014)

Economics hurts my brain. It is akin to voodoo as far as I am concerned. My eyes tend to glaze over before I can absorb articles like this one.

However, this paragraph did strike a chord



> In this sense, the crisis of capitalism has turned into a crisis of democracy. Many feel that their countries are no longer being governed by parliaments and legislatures, but by bank lobbyists, which apply the logic of suicide bombers to secure their privileges: Either they are rescued or they drag the entire sector to its death.



This is what I feel. Instead of bank lobbyists over here, the forces controlling parliament are first and foremost big global corporations. The most powerful of these are found in the media and the extraction/mining industries with corporate banking in third place.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 31, 2014)

I have always believed that unfettered Capitalism will be the end of the middle class..  Corporations exist for the sole purpose of making a profit.  IF left unregulated, they will continue to pull money from the middle class until ALL the money and resources are at the top.  Eventually, the top will find that there is no money left to gather... and I guess the economy will come to a halt.  WHO will they sell to?   Who will have money to buy the products they produce?  They will play with the money buying and selling each others shares and creating an enormous bubble of false money that will eventually implode and the economy of the West will be destroyed.   Capitalism is a cancer that will destroy itself..    Now that's not to say that I am against capitalism.  I like money too... who doesn't.  What I am saying is that there needs to be checks and balances.. in the form of taxes and regulations.  There needs to be a healthy dose of Socialism injected into an economic system that creates social safety nets that will insure no one falls into abject poverty. A floor if you will..   We need to improve our infrastructure, build better schools and put money into the common good.    The economic engine we have created will destroy all of us if we don't.


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## Susie (Oct 31, 2014)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/igorgreenwald/2013/01/07/is-capitalism-dying/
This well-written article explains possible reasons for a 'dying capitalism'.
An interesting statement in 2nd part of article: "So now we have the most powerful and cohesive organizations on Earth devoted to the pursuit of profit above all else and frequently at the expense of public interest------------".


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 31, 2014)

The end of unions and commercializations of benefits for white and blue collar workers has accelerated this process with no end in sight...


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## QuickSilver (Oct 31, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> The end of unions and commercializations of benefits for white and blue collar workers has accelerated this process with no end in sight...



Yes.. Union busting and decreasing of SS and Medicare are ways to get MORE of the $$$ up to the top and not be wasted on the poor and Middle Class.  There has been a excellent job by Corporations and the wealthy to convince the average person that the poor or other average people are the problem.. I am reminded of this old joke.

"A public union employee, a tea party activist and a CEO are sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies in the middle of it. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."


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## Davey Jones (Oct 31, 2014)

Just think what it would be like today if unions didnt exist.
They are part of the whole problem.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 31, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Just think what it would be like today if unions didnt exist.
> They are part of the whole problem.




   Let's see..  Well.. We wouldn't have Employer group health insurance.  We wouldn't have the 40 hr. work week.  We wouldn't have sick days or vacation days.. we would still have children working in factories.  We wouldn't have a minimum wage... heck  some of us might still be paid with chits to be spent only at the company store...  we wouldn't have overtime pay.  We wouldn't have safe workplace regulations.  Do you think Employers gave all that because they are nice guys and wanted their workers to be happy?  No.. people fought  for all that through unions.  Things the unions have won have directly benefitted all of us.


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## Warrigal (Oct 31, 2014)

It pays to know something of social history whether it is women's suffrage, the emancipation of slaves or the struggle of the working class to achieve decent wages and working conditions.


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## Susie (Oct 31, 2014)

What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?
Reintroduce the various types of 'isms' (socialism, communism, nat.soc., etc.), follow the examples of Chinese, N. Korean, Cuban rule?
Or send study groups to countries where democracy seems to be working: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany (see "Gini Coeffient," Wikipedia).
I ask myself, though, how can you compare countries with a small land mass to huge countries like the U.S. or Australia?
Wouldn't it be much easier to regulate and to control a smaller country?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 31, 2014)

Susie said:


> What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?
> Reintroduce the various types of 'isms' (socialism, communism, nat.soc., etc.), follow the examples of Chinese, N. Korean, Cuban rule?
> Or send study groups to countries where democracy seems to be working: Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany (see "Gini Coeffient," Wikipedia).
> I ask myself, though, how can you compare countries with a small land mass to huge countries like the U.S. or Australia?
> Wouldn't it be much easier to regulate and to control a smaller country?



Democratic Socialism


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## SifuPhil (Oct 31, 2014)

If unions are so useful why couldn't they keep American jobs from going overseas?

Why couldn't they keep Detroit from disappearing?


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## Warrigal (Oct 31, 2014)

> What do you think countries threatened by "dying capitalism" should do?



A mixed system. Part democratic socialism, part capitalism and neither element unbridled.
 If one starts to get out of control, then measures (laws, regulations, oversighting bodies) need to be taken to redress the balance.

 It's not an either/or choice.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 31, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> If unions are so useful why couldn't they keep American jobs from going overseas?
> 
> Why couldn't they keep Detroit from disappearing?



When the Bush administration made it finacially profitable... and even gave tax breaks to corporations moving production overseas, how would you expect unions to stop them?


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## SifuPhil (Oct 31, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> When the Bush administration made it finacially profitable... and even gave tax breaks to corporations moving production overseas, how would you expect unions to stop them?



So what would be their present utility if they can be overcome with a little legislation? Wouldn't they always be an easy target?


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## Debby (Oct 31, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Economics hurts my brain. It is akin to voodoo as far as I am concerned. My eyes tend to glaze over before I can absorb articles like this one.
> 
> However, this paragraph did strike a chord
> 
> ...




I think you're speaking for almost every country's system there.  Just a matter of degrees, but everybody is jockeying for their position at the trough and taxpayers everywhere are the ones who are supposed to keep that trough filled.  Only our cupboards are getting bare!


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## metasegue (Oct 31, 2014)

*As regards unions: "So what would be their present utility if they can be overcome with a little legislation? Wouldn't they always be an easy target? "

Yes. They only became viable through force and desperation. The potential force is still there...but the desperation is carefully avoided by the powers that be. By deficit spending, the government keeps the population fed and contained. With the same method, it provides high paying skilled union jobs for the defence industries which support our military and it's role in global mediation and moderation. Overall, I can't complain about this combination. Of course, there will come a day when the whole scheme will cave in like all scams. We'd better hope that cool heads prevail that day.*


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## Susie (Oct 31, 2014)

QuickSilver,
Do you think 'Democratic Socialism' could be the answer?
Tried in vain to imagine the concept of 'Democratic Socialism', turned to Mr. Google for help.
Various definitions included the label "Left Wing" (Quote: A left wing ideology that aims to introduce democracy into the workforce, i.g. worker cooperatives, and ensure public provision of basic human needs.)
Wikipedia, however, claims there is no exact definition of 'democratic socialism'.
I found Wikipedia's detailed explanations and examples very helpful, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism


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## Warrigal (Nov 1, 2014)

I think the key is in the word democratic. The form of socialism that emerges is subject to the will of the people through their elected representatives.


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## Susie (Nov 1, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> A mixed system. Part democratic socialism, part capitalism and neither element unbridled.
> If one starts to get out of control, then measures (laws, regulations, oversighting bodies) need to be taken to redress the balance.
> 
> It's not an either/or choice.



Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail?


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## QuickSilver (Nov 1, 2014)

Susie said:


> Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail?



Of course they wouldn't "allow" it.   They can't stand the idea of a minimum wage, food stamps, or healthcare.   They would love to get their hands on our Social Security and Medicare in order to make a profit on it.   They don't want to pay taxes at all... so no tax increases to fix our roads, bridges, electric grid or water systems..  Everything is falling apart.   The only way to do it would be to have a sweeping populace movement to vote the out politicians in the pockets of the Wealthy..   AND the only way to do that is to have vast campaign reform to get the money out of politics.. Here in the States, we would have to start with a Constitutional amendment to rid ourselves of the Citizen's United ruling.


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## QuickSilver (Nov 1, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I think the key is in the word democratic. The form of socialism that emerges is subject to the will of the people through their elected representatives.



Socialism in the form of setting a floor on poverty...  seeing healthcare as a right not a privilage,  Making sure ALL our citizens have access to good and equal education.  Providing free or at least affordable college tuition....  Taking over utilitities and infrastructure known as the "commons" and seeing that it is in good repair...  establishing a high Speed rail system..... Revamping the tax code so the wealthy pay their fair share by eliminating the loopholes that allow legal tax avoidance.  This can all be done while still celebrating private ownership of property and business... Still allowing profit and entrepreneurship.  and still encouraging people to start businesses, be successful and make money and get ahead.... just not on the backs of the poor and dwindling Middle Class.

Too often.. folks hear the word Socialism... and they think Communism.  They are NOT one and the same.


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## oakapple (Nov 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Socialism in the form of setting a floor on poverty... seeing healthcare as a right not a privilage, Making sure ALL our citizens have access to good and equal education. Providing free or at least affordable college tuition.... Taking over utilitities and infrastructure known as the "commons" and seeing that it is in good repair... establishing a high Speed rail system..... Revamping the tax code so the wealthy pay their fair share by eliminating the loopholes that allow legal tax avoidance. This can all be done while still celebrating private ownership of property and business... Still allowing profit and entrepreneurship. and still encouraging people to start businesses, be successful and make money and get ahead.... just not on the backs of the poor and dwindling Middle Class.
> 
> Too often.. folks hear the word Socialism... and they think Communism. They are NOT one and the same.



I agree.


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## metasegue (Nov 1, 2014)

*"Sounds ideal to me, DW! How would it work? Who would be inspired enough to set up this system? Would those in the top ruling society allow it, or would they fight it tooth and nail? "
                                                                                                                                                                                                Don't look now but that's exactly what the Democratic Party is trying to develop while the representatives of the ruling class (Republicans)...fight it tooth and nail.*


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## Warrigal (Nov 1, 2014)

A tree grows one cell at a time. A house is built on brick at a time, one nail at a time.
Nothing good ever emerges fully formed in a puff of smoke.


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## Susie (Nov 1, 2014)

Some terrific ideas about improving current economic structures in the U.S., also Australia!
So, why are 'some' current politicians uncreative,being "zombie-like", maybe doing what they are told to do, and by whom? (powerful corporations, influential billionaires, or?)
Even though Sweden 'also' has a fairly high unemployment rate (8% in August 2013), its economic structure still could be worth an investigation, at the same time providing some zombie-like politicians with a taxpayer funded 'holiday'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden#Unemployment


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## tnthomas (Nov 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> SifuPhil said:
> 
> 
> > If unions are so useful why couldn't they keep American jobs from going overseas?
> ...



I think that the problem started in the Reagan era, at least that's when I started seeing good jobs being "exported" to 3rd world countries.


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## metasegue (Nov 1, 2014)

*                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The Western "Ayn Rand" states, along with the "Bible Belt" and the Southern "Antebellum" folks, make up the resistance to the utopia we speak of. Oddly enough, out West, they go with Darwin and feel natural selection should govern survival in our modern age. Down South, they try to prop up a false ideology with redistricting (Gerrymandering). All these cultures miss the reality. Automation, robotics, and outsourcing make self reliance, in the form of well paying manufacturing jobs, impossible for most. There must be a shift in the political paradigm and a redistribution of wealth in the form of jobs that can't be performed (yet) by robots or automation. Jobs that can't be shipped overseas. Jobs repairing our rapidly disintegrating infrastructure. The economy needs permanence...make the jobs permanent. Rebuild America and the middle class. The poor will benefit from revenues. The rich, as usual, will gain from profits. The only eventual losers (because of the deficit spending) are the people at the end of the pyramid...the sad trillionaires. Oh well.

The West coast, New England, and my fickle Great Lakes people embrace change. They recognize it as inevitable and as a necessary component of progress. The red states are dominated by white conservatives (one way or another). The blue are made up of ethnic and cultural coalitions where compromise is used for political power. I think the long range picture is obvious unless the coalitions can be divided through subtle demagoguery. The "Brave New World" can appear if we avoid fear and lies.*


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## QuickSilver (Nov 2, 2014)

*



			The "Brave New World" can appear if we avoid fear and lies.
		
Click to expand...


This is a HUGE problem.. The Right Wing media which feeds fear and lies is domimant in the areas you point out.   This is due to the fact that they are owned and operated by the very people that benefit from keeping people uninformed and afraid.  They play on that.. they also play on the religious aspect that drives many of these people to vote.  You cannot turn on a TV and NOT get Fox News.. or a Radio and NOT hear the golden tones of Rush Limbaugh or the miriad of other right wing talkers.   The airwaves are saturated.  Friends in the South have to pay extra to get other views on cable.. so it's no surprise that those without resources are inundated with falsehoods.   Of course the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine in broadcasting  by our friend Ron Reagan set the stage for that. *


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## QuickSilver (Nov 2, 2014)

To lighten it up a bit...  Capitalism explained.. 

http://www.tickld.com/x/capitalism-explained-this-is-so-accurate-it-hurts


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## Susie (Nov 2, 2014)

The best and funniest explanation for capitalism of all!!!
Thanks, QuickSilver.

                                                 :yes:


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## Warrigal (Nov 2, 2014)

:lofl:

Good one QuickSilver.
 I've shared it with my family, none of whom are very cluey about capitalism either.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 3, 2014)

Very good QS.......I am sharing it too.


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## Jackie22 (Nov 3, 2014)

* The "Brave New World" can appear if we avoid fear and lies.

.............how very true.




*


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## metasegue (Nov 3, 2014)

*I know supposedly competent people who listen to Fox news as if it were an oracle. Occasionally, when I want to aggravate myself, I'll tune in. Invariably, the logic and reasoning of the conversation is based on innuendo and implication rather than statements. I forget who said it but..."The man who lies merely hides the truth. The man who tells half lies...has forgotten where he put it". Rupert Murdoch is trying to sell his version of tabloid news and 1950...today. The talking heads he employs are empty and easily programmable. *


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## QuickSilver (Nov 3, 2014)

metasegue said:


> *I know supposedly competent people who listen to Fox news as if it were an oracle. Occasionally, when I want to aggravate myself, I'll tune in. Invariably, the logic and reasoning of the conversation is based on innuendo and implication rather than statements. I forget who said it but..."The man who lies merely hides the truth. The man who tells half lies...has forgotten where he put it". Rupert Murdoch is trying to sell his version of tabloid news and 1950...today. The talking heads he employs are empty and easily programmable. *




I know... I find it amazing that seemingly intelligent people stay plugged into FOX.  BUT.. Murdoch is giving that factor what they want.  They HATE Obama.. Now I'm not saying that Race drives all of it... but I firmly believe a good portion of it.  By staying connected to FOX.. they are given OTHER reasons to pin their hate on.  They can delude themselves into really believing they are NOT racist.... because FOX tells them so.   Obama is BAD because X Y and Z... and you are right to hate him!


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## Warrigal (Nov 3, 2014)

Murdoch is a malevolent spider and he is all about self interest. His political position changes to advantage his own business interests. His father was a much better newspaperman, but his sons? I don't think the poisonous  twisting of truth will die with the old man.

Tony Abbott is Murdoch's creature and often his news outlets receive briefings before the government's own cabinet.

I refuse to buy any of his publications and won't subscribe to Foxtel on principle.


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## metasegue (Nov 3, 2014)

*QS: you are nailing the strategy. To call them disingenuous would be a moral compliment. Fox policy blatantly appeals to racists in the hope they represent enough of the majority to manipulate the electorate. Beyond that, the routine seems to be to ignore and deny any type of responsibility for what they say. Jon Stewart, Steve Colbert, and Bill Maher have a field day with recorded contradictions. Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle used to tell it like it is...before the brothers shut them up. There are screwed up people in all races...just realizing and acting on that will serve to eliminate irrational hatred such as that levelled at Obama.

DW: yes, Murdoch is a  political and social chameleon who will turn inside out for an advantage. The Fifth Estate is in real danger here and elsewhere. The profit motive can skew any format. NBC and MSNBC have cut the cord...Microsoft isn't in the news "business" anymore. Apparently, after Gates left...technology and not politics interested them. I find myself listening to CNN lately.*


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