# Do we need a "Religion" category?



## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2022)

I like the "General Discussion" category. It's fun, lighthearted, and like the tittle, it appeals to the general user. Some have been posting constant, multiple threads dealing with deep questions of the Christian religion. Maybe, we should have a "Religion" section Today, there are four threads pertaining to Christianity. Because those threads have long lives, they kick general threads into oblivion. The General Discussion is in fact the religion discussion.  I admit I'm selfish. I'm an atheist, and have little interest in Christianity. But all those religious threads are knocking what I like off.


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## RadishRose (Jun 10, 2022)

Yes


fuzzybuddy said:


> I like the "General Discussion" category. It's fun, lighthearted, and like the tittle, it appeals to the general user. Some have been posting constant, multiple threads dealing with deep questions of the Christian religion. Maybe, we should have a "Religion" section Today, there are four threads pertaining to Christianity. Because those threads have long lives, they kick general threads into oblivion. The General Discussion is in fact the religion discussion.  I admit I'm selfish. I'm an atheist, and have little interest in Christianity. But all those religious threads are knocking what I like off.


Yes, I agree. Religion topics are important to some (not me) and they should be able to have their own thread. @Matrix ?


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## Matrix (Jun 11, 2022)

Thanks for your suggestions! Most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics", maybe some can be light-hearted? If you see a heated religion discussion in GD, please report it, I will move it to Hot Topics. 

Most religion discussions don't end well, I don't want to create a new forum to encourage such discussions like we did with politics before. Also, I don't think there is enough activity to warrant a new forum.

We will create a new forum when
-  The topic has enough activity. I hate empty forums.
and 
- Someone is passionate about the topic and would like to moderate it, not the other way around.


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## Vida May (Jun 11, 2022)

I am having a huge problem with Christians and beliefs that I think are harmful to our democracy and even our health.   This really got out of control for me during the pandemic.  If a forum for religion would keep all the Christian comments there, I would be strongly in favor of it.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 11, 2022)

If we had a religion forum, it would take an _*unbiased*_ person to moderate it.  I know that it would be challenging for me, personally.  I do, however, like the discussions that are currently clogging the site. Per Matrix, most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics."  I don't see religion as current news - and a hot topic, to my mind's eye, is something like the gas prices or food shortages.  Perhaps a forum named "philosophy???"


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## Just Jeff (Jun 11, 2022)

This is one unbiased set of rules, best for all,  that applies to everyone who wants to visit them: 

"We expect that our visitors will eat with us, attend our meetings, and work with us wherever they are needed. It is the best way to get to know each other. If you feel that is not possible please do not come.

Even though we may not have come to the same position on everything, we will respect your convictions, and expect you will do the same in return.

_*" We cannot welcome anyone that stands in spiritual opposition to the brotherhood here, that seeks to undermine it, or make proselytes from among us."*_


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## JaniceM (Jun 11, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> This is one unbiased set of rules, best for all,  that applies to everyone who wants to visit them:
> 
> "We expect that our visitors will eat with us, attend our meetings, and work with us wherever they are needed. It is the best way to get to know each other. If you feel that is not possible please do not come.
> 
> ...


"Google is our friend"  https://elmendorfbelievers.com/what-we-believe/


No, thanks.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 11, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> "Google is our friend"  https://elmendorfbelievers.com/what-we-believe/
> 
> 
> No, thanks.


Like I posted:  best for all.

Free thought allows not visiting,  in any group or place,  when free thought is possible along with free actions.

The rules are to preserve or to protect what they believe is right there,  their free thought is not adversely affected by ney-sayers.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 11, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I like the "General Discussion" category. It's fun, lighthearted, and like the tittle, it appeals to the general user. Some have been posting constant, multiple threads dealing with deep questions of the Christian religion. Maybe, we should have a "Religion" section Today, there are four threads pertaining to Christianity. Because those threads have long lives, they kick general threads into oblivion. The General Discussion is in fact the religion discussion.  I admit I'm selfish. I'm an atheist, and have little interest in Christianity. But all those religious threads are knocking what I like off.


Perhaps the site would benefit from a "Freedom FROM Religion" forum.  It _might_ accomplish the same goal as the original poster seeks. (Tongue in cheek, ahem)


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## Just Jeff (Jun 11, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Perhaps the site would benefit from a "Freedom FROM Religion" forum.  It _might_ accomplish the same goal as the original poster seeks. (Tongue in cheek, ahem)


Yes,  right and good.  Potentiallly anyway.

"Freedom FROM Religion" would set people free from what has caused more/most death in the world for over a thousand years  .


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## RadishRose (Jun 11, 2022)

Oh, brother!


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 11, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> Oh, brother!


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 12, 2022)

Matrix said:


> Thanks for your suggestions! Most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics", maybe some can be light-hearted? If you see a heated religion discussion in GD, please report it, I will move it to Hot Topics.
> 
> Most religion discussions don't end well, I don't want to create a new forum to encourage such discussions like we did with politics before. Also, I don't think there is enough activity to warrant a new forum.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Religion is not an easy topic


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## Della (Jun 12, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> "Freedom FROM Religion" would set people free from what has caused more/most death in the world for over a thousand years  .


And here, I thought it was smallpox.


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> If we had a religion forum, it would take an _*unbiased*_ person to moderate it.  I know that it would be challenging for me, personally.  I do, however, like the discussions that are currently clogging the site. Per Matrix, most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics."  I don't see religion as current news - and a hot topic, to my mind's eye, is something like the gas prices or food shortages.  Perhaps a forum named "philosophy???"


 I like your post but there is no philosophy that is considered the word of a god.  Philosophy is all the thinking of humans.  

If a category for religion is not good, how about a category for folklore, traditions, and mythology because that would be inclusive.  Technologically the Torah and Bible, and Koran are mythologies equal to other stories of gods, or of animal creatures that help humans, such as the scared buffalos or sacred cows.  We could maybe see the universal truths and improve our moral judgment by knowing more about the universal effort to have cooperative societies and meet human needs.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 13, 2022)

Vida May said:


> I like your post but there is no philosophy that is considered the word of a god.  Philosophy is all the thinking of humans.
> 
> If a category for religion is not good, how about a category for folklore, traditions, and mythology because that would be inclusive.  Technologically the Torah and Bible, and Koran are mythologies equal to other stories of gods, or of animal creatures that help humans, such as the scared buffalos or sacred cows.  We could maybe see the universal truths and improve our moral judgment by knowing more about the universal effort to have cooperative societies and meet human needs.


Although I personally believe that the bible(s) are all just the thinking of humans, your last sentence is a great one:  "We could maybe see the universal truths and improve our moral judgment by knowing more about the universal effort to have cooperative societies and meet human needs."  There are, I believe, some universal truths that all rational people would acknowledge.  Perhaps they need to be codified in granite and dispersed around the globe.


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> This is one unbiased set of rules, best for all,  that applies to everyone who wants to visit them:
> 
> "We expect that our visitors will eat with us, attend our meetings, and work with us wherever they are needed. It is the best way to get to know each other. If you feel that is not possible please do not come.
> 
> ...



I had to look up the meaning of proselytes.

"a person who has converted from one opinion, religion, or party to another"

That is the risk of seeking truth and seeking truth is a fundamental characteristic of democracy.  Rules that prevent the quest for truth are undemocratic.  Democracy is rule by reason and our well-being depends on how well we understand truth and our freedom of speech in our quest for truth.  

However, I can appreciate an old social rule that we do not speak religion or politics because that is rude and harmful to the group.  *If we were to follow that rule, it would mean no religious comments.  *Rules that mean Christians can say anything they please, and any who disagree with what is said must remain silent, is just wrong.  To clarify, we all hold our tongues and do not speak of religion.  That is agreeable?


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> Although I personally believe that the bible(s) are all just the thinking of humans, your last sentence is a great one:  "We could maybe see the universal truths and improve our moral judgment by knowing more about the universal effort to have cooperative societies and meet human needs."  There are, I believe, some universal truths that all rational people would acknowledge.  Perhaps they need to be codified in granite and dispersed around the globe.


 I laughed because that is what philosophy is.  

The notion that a God has favorite people and only those who are saved by this religion know god and morals is so offensive no one should be allowed to talk like that.  That is an ignorance that I very much believe needs to be corrected.  I think this subject came up because some of us experience a deep pain when Christians express the belief that we do not know God and morals or for any other reason are not as good as they are.  And since the pandemic and the fighting over wearing a mask and avoiding contact, some of us experience a lot of anxiety because our lives are threatened by ministers who go against science and pit their flock against the democracy that we value.  

The law says charitable organizations, including churches, can not be politically active and Billy Gramham and his followers lead a movement that is highly political, and no one is doing anything about the violation of the separation of Church and state.  What is happening today is very frightening and we can not talk about it, so we are powerless to do anything about it.    This is a very emotional thing for me, and I assume it is emotional for everyone, so maybe we shouldn't talk about it.  But this must not be one-sided where Christians can say whatever and non-Christians must remain silent.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

Vida May said:


> This is a very emotional thing for me, and I assume it is emotional for everyone, so maybe we shouldn't talk about it. But this must not be one-sided where Christians can say whatever and non-Christians must remain silent.


We , everyone,  may meet a lot of people,  half who we meet maybe?,   who are not emotional at all about these things, and do not need to be as far as I know,  
but several on this and other forums have shown that what Christians , in name,  say and do , has harmed and killed more people the last 2000 years than what non-Christians have been responsible for,  in many people's historical and lifetime experiences and reading accurate history when and if they can find it.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

Della said:


> Studies show it lowers IQ, motivation, and self-control.





Della said:


> plenty of evidence about the effects, with this young generation being the guinea pigs.


The above quotes were still in the 'quote buffer' from previous day(s) and left here just because, for now.


Vida May said:


> That is the risk of seeking truth and seeking truth is a fundamental characteristic of democracy.


Where did you get that idea from ?    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
As far as the last hundred years goes,  democratic countries, mainly or also the usa,  have played a large part in robbing people of their rights to know the truth,  
keeping us and all as much as possible from having the freedom to learn, pursue and practice the truth,   
and destroyed several if not many peoples, cultures, and tribes from the usa, alaska,  philippines, etc etc etc 


Vida May said:


> Rules that prevent the quest for truth are undemocratic.


Rules that prevent the quest for truth are present in every country,  just may be more noted or noticeable in some other political senarios.
Look at the usa, Canada, and Australia,  for examples of silencing the truth especially the last 3 years,  but the same censorship as used for decades already  --- otherwise it would not have been so easy to dupe so much of the entire population of these 3 countries and many other countries as well.


Vida May said:


> Democracy is rule by reason and our well-being depends on how well we understand truth and our freedom of speech in our quest for truth.


Remember now then Don Quixote,  "Reason is the greatest enemy of men."   i.e. what is falsely called knowledge is used to confuse, oppress, and deceive the lowly populace .   It is apparently and daily applauded and very "reasonable" to suppress the truth, censor it, to get people to get in line and not make waves.


Vida May said:


> That is agreeable?


I think you and others agree that the results of whatever is happening has not been good for years.


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## Just Jeff (Jun 13, 2022)

footnote: (reference to ) Messages in granite:  

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Georgia_Guidestones
Georgia Guidestones - Wikipedia​The Georgia Guidestones are a granite monument erected in 1980 in Elbert County, Georgia, in the United States. A set of ten guidelines is inscribed on the structure in eight modern languages and a shorter message is inscribed at the top of the structure in four ancient language scripts.


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> We , everyone,  may meet a lot of people,  half who we meet maybe?,   who are not emotional at all about these things, and do not need to be as far as I know,
> but several on this and other forums have shown that what Christians , in name,  say and do , has harmed and killed more people the last 2000 years than what non-Christians have been responsible for,  in many people's historical and lifetime experiences and reading accurate history when and if they can find it.



Wonderful a new subject that is not taboo.  I am trying to familiarize myself with a more Asian-style stoicism.  To live with intention but not this hysterical passion I have.  As a Buddist once said, my emotions shake me like a puppy shocked by a strong hand.  I know I am driven by a sense of purpose and this is tied to my sense of self-esteem but it is also a lot of fear.  

Never in the history of humanity has our consciousness been so full of knowledge and never before have we been able to instantly communicate with people on the other side of the world.  Never before in the time of humans has our climate been so threatening.  Never before have we been so aware of what war can do to people's ability to access food and prevent starvation far away from the area of the war.  

I have great expectations of the possible destruction we face and also of the possible human ability to identify and resolve problems.    

I think humanity needs a good psychoanalysis and a better understanding of how we got here and how we can do better.  Saying all our problems are because of sin, is not very helpful.


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## mrstime (Jun 13, 2022)

Matrix said:


> Thanks for your suggestions! Most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics", maybe some can be light-hearted? If you see a heated religion discussion in GD, please report it, I will move it to Hot Topics.
> 
> Most religion discussions don't end well, I don't want to create a new forum to encourage such discussions like we did with politics before. Also, I don't think there is enough activity to warrant a new forum.
> 
> ...


And you thought politics was somehow divisive?


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Where did you get that idea from ?    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> As far as the last hundred years goes,  democratic countries, mainly or also the usa,  have played a large part in robbing people of their rights to know the truth,
> keeping us and all as much as possible from having the freedom to learn, pursue and practice the truth,
> and destroyed several if not many peoples, cultures, and tribes from the usa, alaska,  philippines, etc etc etc.



I will not argue against what you said.  However, my understanding of democracy comes from Athens and philosophy, not the American mythology of democracy.  I collect old-school books that express the American mythology and this is one of my favorite subjects.  I began writing a textbook to explain the Greek gods and democracy and got discouraged because I do not believe I would have a market for such a book. 


Just Jeff said:


> Rules that prevent the quest for truth are present in every country,  just may be more noted or noticeable in some other political senarios.
> Look at the usa, Canada, and Australia,  for examples of silencing the truth especially the last 3 years,  but the same censorship as used for decades already  --- otherwise it would not have been so easy to dupe so much of the entire population of these 3 countries and many other countries as well.
> 
> Remember now then Don Quixote,  "Reason is the greatest enemy of men."   i.e. what is falsely called knowledge is used to confuse, oppress, and deceive the lowly populace .   It is apparently and daily applauded and very "reasonable" to suppress the truth, censor it, to get people to get in line and not make waves.
> ...


We are speaking of culture, right, not politics because that would violate the rule in this forum.  Actually, if we do not understand what culture has to do with democracy we are in big trouble because democracy is rule by reason, not authority over the people.

Republicans are firm in arguing the US is a republic, not a democracy and yes the US has a republic form of government, but it educated for a democratic culture.  However, the US modeled its industry after England's autocracy and that has very strong social, economic, and political influences especially since we ended education for democracy leaving us only autocracy or anarchy.   There, that is as clear as the muddy river after flooding, isn't it?  

The opposite of democracy is autocracy, not communism.  And Billy Graham and the cold war pitting us against the communist brought us to where we are today and that is not a good place.  I think we have an agreement that we have an education and media problem and this is also a problem with religion that has become very political.

This is about culture and moral judgment.


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## Vida May (Jun 13, 2022)

Growing up I learned it is socially wrong to talk about religion and politics.  Some of my best friends are Christians and I do talk about religion with them because I value their friendship.  I am sure we all came here because we are looking for enjoyable socialization and want to feel emotionally safe.  However...

The best part of aging is we shift from learning facts, to understanding the meaning of all those facts.  Knowledge is not a collection of facts, it is experience that gives those facts meaning.  We have moments of feeling enlightened that are as good as any religious/spiritual experience and some of us what this more than socializing and talking about how cute our cat is, and the best pasta recipe.  

Our public broadcasting station warns that some people may be offended but what is said during the program.  I almost turned my TV off rather than risk being emotionally distressed by inferior people, who do not know the importance of good manners, but I learned the programs are more apt to be informative than offensive.  Moving threads that are offensive to Hot Topics is another way of dealing with this problem, but we have different understandings of the meaning of hot topics.  I thought a hot topic meant very popular topics, not a possibly offensive one.  

I hope with a realization of the importance of freedom of speech we can have meaningful discussions also safe discussions.  Perhaps allowing talk of religion and politics but not tolerating disrespect is a solution?  I have found the effort to always be respectful has improved my logic and communication skills, and that when I am discussing things with respectful people, I become a better human being.  But oh my!  if someone is offensive, belligerent, or disrespectful  I can react in kind and then for the next three days be displeased with myself because of failing to be the person I want to be.  I find poorly regulated forums harmful and want to thank those in charge for the effort to avoid that.


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## Vida May (Jun 15, 2022)

Just Jeff said:


> Like I posted:  best for all.
> 
> Free thought allows not visiting,  in any group or place,  when free thought is possible along with free actions.
> 
> The rules are to preserve or to protect what they believe is right there,  their free thought is not adversely affected by ney-sayers.


 My grandmother's 3 rules are...

1. We respect everyone.  It makes no difference who the other person is, the mayor or a bum because being respectful is about who we are.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

3. We do everything with integrity.  

I have seen these rules in action.  They left people up and bring out the best in people.


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## Lavinia (Jun 17, 2022)

I find it interesting to get different views on religion but it does cause disagreements. None of us know the truth when it comes to religious beliefs, so all we can do is express what WE personally believe. (I know I'm repeating what others have said but there is no harm in saying it again).
If people can discuss things rationally and respectfully, I see no reason not to include a religious section.


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## Uptosnuff (Jun 17, 2022)

I would like to see a forum about spirituality.  Not necessary just religion but including a whole host of other topics.  I think people can be spiritual without being religious.

I do agree that this could be tricky to moderate, especially with people's strong views on religion.  But it would be so nice to have a place to discuss spirituality in an adult manner.


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## Sassycakes (Jun 20, 2022)

I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs on Religion the same way I respect other people's feelings towards politics. Someone can just skip over the thread if they don't care for it.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 20, 2022)

Uptosnuff said:


> I would like to see a forum about spirituality.  Not necessary just religion but including a whole host of other topics.  I think people can be spiritual without being religious.
> 
> I do agree that this could be tricky to moderate, especially with people's strong views on religion.  But it would be so nice to have a place to discuss spirituality in an adult manner.


You might start up a thread of your own - include spirituality in the topic, and see how may responses you get.  Also, a definition of spirituality might help in your own initial post.  Then define your own view of spirituality and ask for other views.  Just a thought!


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## Indiana Joe (Dec 9, 2022)

Matrix said:


> Thanks for your suggestions! Most religion topics should be posted in "Current News & Hot Topics", maybe some can be light-hearted? If you see a heated religion discussion in GD, please report it, I will move it to Hot Topics.
> 
> Most religion discussions don't end well, I don't want to create a new forum to encourage such discussions like we did with politics before. Also, I don't think there is enough activity to warrant a new forum.
> 
> ...


If we cannot be political in here, how can you condone a religious group?  If anything can incite more argumentative anger than politics, it's religion.


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## David777 (Dec 9, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I like the "General Discussion" category. It's fun, lighthearted, and like the tittle, it appeals to the general user._* Some*_ have been posting constant, multiple threads dealing with deep questions of the Christian religion. Maybe, we should have a "Religion" section Today, there are *four threads pertaining to Christianit*y. Because those threads have long lives, they kick general threads into oblivion. The General Discussion is in fact the religion discussion.  I admit I'm selfish. *I'm an atheist*, and have little interest in Christianity. But all those religious threads *are knocking what I like off.*



Agree with Matrix so I don't see a need for another forum.  And we especially do not need any political sub-forum that a few here obviously feel inhibited over and occasionally complain so.

The OP argument about a few religious threads getting in the way of far far more topics of all types, instead points towards his atheist comment. Many in general whether on this board or in public media, do not like listening to or reading things that grate against their own beliefs and attitudes.  Especially if they personally have little relevant to add challenging other views in a discussion. Such persons thrive within limited echo chambers where they feel others think as they do. 

Most in this community discuss a wide range of topics reasonably, respectfully, civilly, that allows members to better understand how a range of different people feel.    There will always be a few emotional personalities on any web board that cannot write much of anything without injecting emotion, or feeling personally slighted, or attacked over what others write, or try to add humor where it doesn't belong.  Their limitations ought not inhibit the majority.  Additional are those that post as though they are trying to change other minds.  This web board, unlike some media site like Twitter or Facebook, has a miniscule audience, with trivial potential effect to any subjects.  So it is misguided to post like one is on some political or behavioral agenda and mission to change others.

There are some members on this web board that tend to create less than intelligently considered, vaguely titled new threads, often too broadly posed.  When others post on their threads, they ought not be surprised members didn't respond as they in their own mind narrowly expected.  Better if some of those authoring threads took more time to consider how others might respond instead of posting vague poorly considered one-liners like most do on sites like Twitter.


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## Lilac (Dec 9, 2022)

There are different views within any one religious' group. Making a statement that all people of one religion behave & believe only in one way, IMHO is narrow minded. That is what I am understanding in a few posts.

Why would someone want paint everyone as being the same? Could it be possible that the issue is with their thoughts/feelings & not that of others.

I don't care for intolerance & sadly there is a lot of it going around. Gone are the days having a civil conversation & agreeing to disagree & go on to another topic. If you do or do not believe in God or a greater being, fine. That is your right. But what right does anyone have to scoff, shut down or blame any certain religion for all the problems either here or elsewhere.

Just my thoughts...


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## Matrix (Dec 9, 2022)

Indiana Joe said:


> If we cannot be political in here, how can you condone a religious group?  If anything can incite more argumentative anger than politics, it's religion.


Well, one can always extend the list of banned topics. Our members voted to ban politics 6 years ago, nothing to debate about it. Welcome to the forums.


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## Nemo2 (Dec 9, 2022)

It's been almost 41 years since I visited Jerusalem, so things may have changed, (slightly), but I recall, having visited the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that the ministers of the different denominations sharing the church had inflexible routes to get to and from the building at separate times, ostensibly I guess to create the illusion of sole dominion.........for a set period of time.

Apparently it worked, although I doubt that said clergymen, especially if they encountered one another on neutral turf, would come to blows.

Me, I'm an agnostic...primarily because there's that small element of doubt that stops me from saying atheist....(and also makes me appear more reasonable & thoughtful   ), and although I'm a newbie here, (and have some small appreciation of how Sunnis & Shiites behave when in close proximity), I figure if things are cordial we might all learn something.........or not, (there's that agnosticism kicking in again).


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