# Are you a Christian and do you believe the Bible is the word of God?



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

I was a born again Christian for 10 years. I studied the Bible and prayed daily. The church was where all my friends were. I believed the Bible was God's word and Jesus was the only way to be saved. That IS what the Bible says. The Bible is very straight forward about accepting Christ as your savior and following Him above all else. He teaches that money is the root of evil, and that adultery doesn't need to be physical, because lust is a sin. 
  I am no longer a Christian, because I no longer believe that the Bible is "god's word". If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?

  This video points out the difference in saying you are a Christian and yet ignore what the Bible teaches.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 10, 2022)

If asked I usually do say I am a Christian, but that is by birth and upbring.  I no longer believe the supernatural parts of the religion or that the Bible, or anything else, is the word of God.  

That said I think Christians and members of other religions do a lot of good and have a lot of good ideas.  I also enjoy the holidays, Christmas, Mardi Gras, Easter, Halloween, etc.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 10, 2022)

If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?

Doesn't the New Testament reconcile a person's Christianity?

My dad was Catholic, so he believed that Christ was the messiah. He was a Christian.
Mom was Jewish, so she was still waiting for the messiah. So, not a Christian.

They're both deceased. _Maybe_ one is saying "I told you so" to the other, but since I'm Atheist, I'm pretty sure they're not having any conversation at all.


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2022)

I grew up nominally Christian and attended Sunday School as a school child.
I became an atheist before the age of 20 because I decided that God was a construct of humanity.
Later, aged 33 I had a spiritual experience of that which we call God and laid down my disbelief.

I was pretty much a blank sheet spiritually and now I looked at the scriptures with adult eyes.
The obstacles in some of the stories that drove me away in my youth were considered anew in historical and cultural context and I was able to see deeper meanings than before.

I remind myself of something that Paul wrote about the milk and the meat. New Christians need milk to nourish their faith but they need to develop spiritually to be able to move on to the meat. Some never do.

The word "milk" in his letter means the basic, elemental teachings of true Christianity first learned by new believers. The word "meat" comes from the Greek word _Broma_ and means the more solid, complete and deeper spiritual doctrines of the Gospel.

This is why we need to eat and drink the scriptures rather than simply memorise them. The lessons must become internalised and expressed in our actions. The most important lessons are about love, compassion, charity and forgiveness.

I do not believe that every word in the Bible is the literal word of God but I do find God in the ancient writings just as I find God in the natural world in all its beauty, complexity and terrors. I am no longer troubled by the idea that my understanding of God is imperfect, remembering those other words of St Paul about seeing "through a glass darkly".


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I was a born again Christian for 10 years. I studied the Bible and prayed daily. The church was where all my friends were. I believed the Bible was God's word and Jesus was the only way to be saved. That IS what the Bible says. The Bible is very straight forward about accepting Christ as your savior and following Him above all else. He teaches that money is the root of evil, and that adultery doesn't need to be physical, because lust is a sin.
> I am no longer a Christian, because I no longer believe that the Bible is "god's word". If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?
> 
> This video points out the difference in saying you are a Christian and yet ignore what the Bible teaches.


I know that I am a Christrian and I spend time listening to His Word being preached every morning.  I pray because it is important to pray to Him and yes, the Bible REALLY IS the Word of God.  I am sorry to hear this bad news. But, I have read the Bible through from cover to cover and the Word is living and very powerful.  And believing in Jesus as your personal Savior is a very important decision in your life.  He is the only way, the only truth and the only Savior.  Without Him, you are lost and you don't want to put your trust in anything else.  He brings His Holy Spirit to live in you and guide you in life when you verbally accept Him as your Savior.  Please, keep your hope and relationship with Jesus.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I was a born again Christian for 10 years. I studied the Bible and prayed daily. The church was where all my friends were. I believed the Bible was God's word and Jesus was the only way to be saved. That IS what the Bible says. The Bible is very straight forward about accepting Christ as your savior and following Him above all else. He teaches that money is the root of evil, and that adultery doesn't need to be physical, because lust is a sin.
> I am no longer a Christian, because I no longer believe that the Bible is "god's word". If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?
> 
> This video points out the difference in saying you are a Christian and yet ignore what the Bible teaches.


Keep your belief, do not be mislead!  There are all kinds of stuff out there that can try to lead you away.  Do not stop believing.  Keep on believing, He died on the cross for you.  Jesus is the only way.  Keep your focus on The Living Truth=the Bible.  You are His child.  Jesus Loves You!


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

"how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?"

That my friend is where the rubber meets the road. 

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

Sadly, many of us lie to ourselves and think we're better than we are - yet it's absurd to think this dimenishes God in any way.


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## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

All of these religions around the world believe their Holy Book is the Word and nothing wrong with that!


Baha'iThe Seven Valleys and The Four ValleysBuddhismTipitakaChristianityChristian BibleHinduismThe Vedas and The UpanishadsIslamThe Quran and The HadithsJainismThe AgamasJudaismThe Tanakh and The TalmudShintoismKojikiSikhismGuru Granth SahibTaoismDao De JingWiccaThe Book of ShadowsZoroastrianismThe Avesta


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> "how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?"
> 
> That my friend is where the rubber meets the road.
> 
> ...


We are born sinners and every one sins.  Jesus paid for ALL our sins on the cross at Cavalry.  We all have a sin nature, but Jesus never sinned and did not, could not sin.  John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son, that whoso ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."


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## Lara (Feb 10, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave? This video points out the difference in saying you are a Christian and yet ignore what the Bible teaches.


I wasn't going to enter this discussion because it can be a bit labor intensive...and then BAM! You got me

The Bible teaches that whether we are Christian or non-Christian we are all sinners with choices between good and evil. The difference though is that Christians are not sinning the same sin over and over forever...thus not truly Christians. Instead they are asking forgiveness and repenting and growing more sinless over time...but do fall prey on occasion to temptation. But only God knows their hearts and only God can judge who is sincere and who isn't because we're all sinners. He gives us a hint though as to how to spot those who are insincere and those who are sincere Christians...

God says He will forgive our sin many times if we are sincerely growing as true followers of His Word.  But when He sees no desire to please Him, no repentance, no growth toward being Christ-like (aka sinless) then He said, using a parable as an example, that some will say "Lord Lord, and I will know them not". In other words...they talk the talk but they don't walk the walk..nor care to change. And God will not view them as a true believer and follower. He says we are not to be the judge but we will know them by their fruits.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> I wasn't going to enter this discussion because it can be a bit labor intensive...and then BAM! You got me
> 
> The Bible teaches that whether we are Christian or non-Christian we are all sinners with choices between good and evil. The difference though is that Christians are not sinning the same sin over and over forever...thus not truly Christians. Instead they are asking forgiveness and repenting...but do fall prey on occasion to temptation. But only God knows their hearts and only God can judge who is sincere and who isn't because we're all sinners. He gives us a hint though as to how to spot those who are insincere and those who are sincere Christians...
> 
> God says He will forgive our sin many times if we are sincerely growing more Christ-like over time as true followers of His Word.  But when He sees no desire to please Him, no repentance, no growth toward being Christ-like (aka sinless) then He said, using a parable as an example, that some will say "Lord Lord, and I will know them not". In other words...they talk the talk but they don't walk the walk...over and over for too long. And God will not view them as a true believer and follower. He says we are not to be the judge but we will know them by their fruits.


I've often pondered why God doesn't remove the ability to sin, once you've asked for forgiveness. It's kinda like the cartoon Jessica Rabbit when she says, "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> I wasn't going to enter this discussion because it can be a bit labor intensive...and then BAM! You got me
> 
> The Bible teaches that whether we are Christian or non-Christian we are all sinners with choices between good and evil. The difference though is that Christians are not sinning the same sin over and over forever...thus not truly Christians. Instead they are asking forgiveness and repenting and growing more sinless over time...but do fall prey on occasion to temptation. But only God knows their hearts and only God can judge who is sincere and who isn't because we're all sinners. He gives us a hint though as to how to spot those who are insincere and those who are sincere Christians...
> 
> God says He will forgive our sin many times if we are sincerely growing more Christ-like over time as true followers of His Word.  But when He sees no desire to please Him, no repentance, no growth toward being Christ-like (aka sinless) then He said, using a parable as an example, that some will say "Lord Lord, and I will know them not". In other words...they talk the talk but they don't walk the walk...over and over for too long. And God will not view them as a true believer and follower. He says we are not to be the judge but we will know them by their fruits.


That particular verse isn't based on works of the flesh-good or bad.  Jesus paid for all, not just some, but all sin.  Yes, we repent and ask for forgiveness.  Being a believer is a condition of the heart and mind.  God is our heavenly Father, and Jesus is our Savior and He is always there for us.  He knew each of us before the creation of the earth.  He knew all about our little lives even before He created us.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> We are born sinners and every one sins.  Jesus paid for ALL our sins on the cross at Cavalry.  We all have a sin nature, but Jesus never sinned and did not, could not sin.  John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son, that whoso ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."


I believe, but still sin.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> That particular verse isn't based on works of the flesh-good or bad.  Jesus paid for all, not just some, but all sin.  Yes, we repent and ask for forgiveness.  Being a believer is a condition of the heart and mind.  God is our heavenly Father, and Jesus is our Savior and He is always there for us.  He knew each of us before the creation of the earth.  He knew all about our little lives even before He created us.


Why does sin remain in us?

Jesus paid the price for all sin, so will everyone go to Heaven?


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## win231 (Feb 10, 2022)

I am nothing much at all.


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## Lara (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> I've often pondered why God doesn't remove the ability to sin, once you've asked for forgiveness.


God doesn't remove the ability to sin because he wants us to make that choice between good and evil...between God or Worldly  desires. Otherwise, what's the point...we would just be puppets or robots. That wasn't His plan. His plan is to have a loving relationship with us just as a child with an earthly father. God is our heavenly father and we are his children who should respect and obey His words.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

win231 said:


> I am nothing much at all.


No, you're a special kind of somebody.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> If asked I usually do say I am a Christian, but that is by birth and upbring.  I no longer believe the supernatural parts of the religion or that the Bible, or anything else, is the word of God.
> 
> That said I think Christians and members of other religions do a lot of good and have a lot of good ideas.  I also enjoy the holidays, Christmas, Mardi Gras, Easter, Halloween, etc.


For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart.  Hebrews 4:12.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> God doesn't remove the ability to sin because he wants us to make that choice between good and evil...between God or Worldly  desires. Otherwise we are just puppets or robots. That wasn't His plan. His plan is to have a loving relationship with us just as a child with an earthly father. God is our heavenly father and we are his children who should respect and obey His words.


But my sinful nature makes it impossible to please God or follow Him completely. I understand it is not work based - but at what point doesn't God's grace cover a person.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> Why does sin remain in us?
> 
> Jesus paid the price for all sin, so will everyone go to Heaven?


We are born with a sin nature.  That is why.  Just like we have other natures about us; to love, hate, have compassion, etc.


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## CinnamonSugar (Feb 10, 2022)

I believe. I love Jesus and try my best to follow Hus way and His word


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> We are born with a sin nature.  That is why.  Just like we have other natures about us; to love, hate, have compassion, etc.


So, we have no choice or free will, if we are born with a sin nature. Doomed from the beginning.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 10, 2022)

Are you a Christian and do you believe the Bible is the word of God?​
No and no.  I was raised Catholic, spent 8 years of childhood in Catholic school and church.  Walked away after that and no longer follow any organized religion.  My parents taught me to be a good person and treat others how I would like to be treated, I never needed the empty promise of 'heaven' or the threat of 'hell' to treat all living beings with love and kindness.  Religion is a personal choice and if someone finds comfort in believing the bible or a certain religion, then that is what they should do.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> But my sinful nature makes it impossible to please God or follow Him completely. I understand it is not work based - but at what point doesn't God's grace cover a person.


The first commandment says, "You hall have no other gods before Me".  When you deny God, that is unforgiveable.  the only time.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> The first commandment says, "You hall have no other gods before Me".  When you deny God, that is unforgiveable.  the only time.



So as long as I don't deny that there is a God, I'm golden? Does it matter what God I believe in, can I believe in multiple gods?

and thanks for the conversation, I know these threads can be burdensome.


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## Lara (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> So, we have no choice or free will, if we are born with a sin nature. Doomed from the beginning.


My faith-based answer is that God created us with free-will to choose between good and evil. His Son paid the price for our sins for those who confess and sincerely try not to sin, trying to resist temptation. God tests our faith. He honors a strong faith and desire to please Him.

I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm just explaining what God's is communicating in the Bible.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> So as long as I don't deny that there is a God, I'm golden?
> 
> and thanks for the conversation, I know these threads can be burdensome.


Invite Him into your heart as your Savior and you will be saved.  He doesn't come in unless you invite Him.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Invite Him into your heart as your Savior and you will be saved.  He doesn't come in unless you invite Him.


I've opened the door, but sin is still within me. Seems hypocritical to me.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> My faith-based answer is that God created us with free-will to choose between good and evil. His Son paid the price for our sins for those who confess and sincerely try not to sin, trying to resist temptation. God tests our faith. He honors a strong faith and desire to please Him.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm just explaining what God's is trying to communicate in the Bible.


Sometimes I choose good, sometimes evil. How many bad choices will keep me out of Heaven?

I'm open minded - no worries. If people really think I'm in danger of hell and they say nothing, than I wonder if they really believe there is a hell.


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## Lara (Feb 10, 2022)

Nobody dies perfect. God wants us to have choices to make between good and evil until the very end...because that proves our love and respect for our creator until the end. Not choosing good, not choosing God until the very end is the ultimate sin called blasphemy.

Only God knows how many bad choices will keep you out of heaven. He's smart. He knows out hearts.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> Nobody dies perfect. God wants us to have choices to make between good and evil until the very end...because that proves our love and respect for our creator until the end. Not choosing good, not choosing God until the very end is the ultimate sin called blasphemy.


So, living life with a little sin is acceptable? Where is the tipping point on the scale?

Is it true repentance if I keep committing my pet sin over and over?


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> I've opened the door, but sin is still within me. Seems hypocritical to me.


That is why Jesus died on the cross to literally pay for all those sins, cause we can't get rid of them or pay for them.  He took care of that for us.


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## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

I went to a Catholic convent in France, loved it, loved the Bible, loved the nuns etc. But then I grew up and realised that the Bible, Koran and others were written by “wise” men of the day. Not by God. Although I respect them all, I would consider myself someone who has no mind of my own were I to adhere to every word in a book or books written thousands of years ago.

Funny thing, Jesus. Moses nor Muhammad were literate, they wrote nothing themselves. Interesting, the only educated religious leader appears to have been the Buddha.

I respect what people want to believe. I have formed my own beliefs and live by my faith in God and I am not referring to Jesus as God.

_“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. ( Lucius Annaeus Seneca).”_


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> That is why Jesus died on the cross to literally pay for all those sins, cause we can't get rid of them or pay for them.  He took care of that for us.


And it also doesn't give us the right to sin anyway, if we are a true believer, we shouldn't want to sin just because.


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## Gardenlover (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> And it also doesn't give us the right to sin anyway, if we are a true believer, we shouldn't want to sin just because.


I don't think most people just sin because they want to annoy God, but rather because it is their nature. How can someone change his or her nature? Every single person I know continues to sin and those that say they don't sin are lying to themselves.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> I don't think most people just sin because they want to annoy God, but rather because it is their nature. How can someone change his or her nature? Every single person I know continues to sin and those that say they don't sin are lying to themselves.


Yes, it is their nature.  Some people do or say something without thinking first.  That is when you repent and try not to sin next time.  But, inevitably, it happens again.  Try to hang around the right people, watch better shows on tv, read good books, go to church, get involved in a local church, use better judgement.  But, it takes time and conscious effort.


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## Gary O' (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> But my sinful nature makes it impossible to please God or follow Him completely. I understand it is not work based - but at what point doesn't God's grace cover a person.


Maybe a bit of an explanation;

Paul says 'I die daily'

Heh, I freaking die by the minute 

It's a struggle, be we can rest in Him


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## 1955 (Feb 10, 2022)

TAOISM:    Crap happens.
HINDUISM: This crap happened before.
CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: crap happens.
BUDDHISM: It is only an illusion of crap happening.
ZEN: What is the sound of crap happening?
ISLAM: If Crap happens, it is the will of Allah.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: Knock, knock: "Crap happens."
ATHEISM: There is no such thing as crap.
AGNOSTICISM: Maybe crap happens, and maybe it doesn't.
PROTESTANTISM: Crap won't happen if I work harder.
CATHOLICISM: If crap happens, I deserve it.
JUDAISM: Why does crap always happen to me?
TELEVANGELISM: Send money or crap will happen to you.

Not sure where I came across this, but it always give me a laugh.
Lately I believe religion has been the biggest blight on man kind ever.
I do believe in a higher power but I'm not evolved enough to know what it is.


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## Lara (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> So, living life with a little sin is acceptable? Where is the tipping point on the scale?
> 
> Is it true repentance if I keep committing my pet sin over and over?



According to my faith (and not wishing to push this on anyone who doesn't care to read this)...

Yes, "a little sin" is proof that Satan is real and tempting us. And proof that God is testing our faith.

Good (choosing not to sin) and evil (choosing temptation) will always be choices to the very end of physical life.

Only God knows our hearts as to our sincerity. Believing we need a Savior (Jesus) to save us from our sins is the definition of Christianity.


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> But my sinful nature makes it impossible to please God or follow Him completely. I understand it is not work based - but at what point doesn't God's grace cover a person.


From the moment you accept the gift you begin to change.

Just as a mother loves her baby from the moment of its first breath (even before) so God loves all of us as a parent. A parent may be sad when his children do wrong things and take no heed of his teachings. A parent may try to steer his children to better behaviour but God never gives up on any of us.

I know this as a recovering alcoholic (25 years and counting). One night I had drunk myself into near oblivion and heard an inner voice asking, "Why are you doing this?"

I recognised the voice of God, call it conscience if you will, but I answered audibly with, "Not now. Go away".

God waited patiently for the right moment and I was led to an AA meeting. Haven't had a drink since and I am very grateful that I was not abandoned to my fate. That is how God offers help (salvation) but does not force it on us.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

1955 said:


> TAOISM:    Crap happens.
> HINDUISM: This crap happened before.
> CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: crap happens.
> BUDDHISM: It is only an illusion of crap happening.
> ...


There are a lot of different religions, and denominations out there.  But only one God and His Word.


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## Judycat (Feb 10, 2022)

No comment, because you'll do what you want then complain to me about it.
---Sincerely,
 My name isn't God


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Judycat said:


> No comment, because you'll do what you want then complain to me about it.
> ---Sincerely,
> My name isn't God


He listens and answers with love and grace.


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## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

Who is God?

I would also most respectfully like to ask this question of the devout Christians on this thread. There is a battle now going on in the Australian senate with regard to transgender and gay people.

Would any of you worshippers have a problem with trangender and gay people coming to your church? Would you invite them to your homes?

As I say,I ask this respectfully.


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## OneEyedDiva (Feb 10, 2022)

I was raised as a Christian. My parents had me in Sunday school and we went to church services every Sunday. It seems that our teaching was different, or perhaps I interpreted it differently...but the focus seemed to always be on worshipping God, not Jesus. I didn't realized that' other Christians worshipped Jesus until my BFF mentioned it during a discussion. I was a Christian, though not devout, for more than half my life.

I'm not a Bible scholar but I was always told that the Bible was in part written by man. Which men...do we know? I was also told that the words in red were Jesus' words...I don't know. I haven't cracked open a Bible in a long time. My son studied a concordance and he was telling me that some of it's books were left out and other tidbits about the book. Can't remember them all now because that was decades ago. One thing most non-Muslims don't realize is that many Imams (Muslim ministers) and Sheiks (higher order of ministers) teach from the Bible as well as the Quran. I've witnessed this. My husband and I have visited many masjids (mosques), some with predominantly African American congregations, some Turkish and Arab and some a good mixture of all nationalities. We heard references to the Bible in many of them.


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## Judycat (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> He listens and answers with love and grace.


Just be thankful my son went through with the plan, because I was fed up with you and about to burn everything to dust.
---My name really isn't God


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## mrstime (Feb 10, 2022)

I did the born again thing too, I also found out that some of the nastiest people are born agains. I no longer believe any of it, guess I am an athiest. By the way though money is not the root of all evil, the love of money is the root of all evil. I can't help it I'm pretty keen on money!


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## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2022)

Shero said:


> Who is God?
> 
> I would also most respectfully like to ask this question of the devout Christians on this thread. There is a battle now going on in the Australian senate with regard to transgender and gay people.
> 
> ...


Does this answer your question?

My church flies the rainbow banner every year for Gay Mardi Gras, with one word printed across it. 
That word is WELCOME.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

mrstime said:


> I did the born again thing too, I also found out that some of the nastiest people are born agains. I no longer believe any of it, guess I am an athiest. By the way though money is not the root of all evil, the love of money is the root of all evil. I can't help it I'm pretty keen on money!


True, the love of money is the root of all evil.  But, don't let the nasty born again Christians destroy what you have in Jesus.  I know some, but I can keep my born again.  Nothing can take it away!  I keep mine and you can keep yours too.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 10, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Does this answer your question?
> 
> My church flies the rainbow banner every year for Gay Mardi Gras, with one word printed across it.
> That word is WELCOME.


I would love for them to come to the church I go to.  They have a right to chose Jesus as their Savior just as I do.


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## Gary O' (Feb 10, 2022)

mrstime said:


> I also found out that some of the nastiest people are born agains


That's 'cause we know we need Him the most


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## Alligatorob (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> For the Word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart.  Hebrews 4:12.


Thanks for responding, but I am not quite sure what to make of it.  

I assume you are pointing to something in the Bible that says God is real and powerful.  Problem is I am not sure the Bible is anything other than an interesting historical document written by men... nothing more.


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## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Does this answer your question?
> 
> My church flies the rainbow banner every year for Gay Mardi Gras, with one word printed across it.
> That word is WELCOME.


Actually, I was hoping for a more personal answer, not what the church does once a year as a body. But if that if your answer, then I wil not press the point.


----------



## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I would love for them to come to the church I go to.  They have a right to chose Jesus as their Savior just as I do.



But, do they have the right to remain as they are?

The way God made them?
.


----------



## mrstime (Feb 10, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> That's 'cause we know we need Him the most


Ah but shouldn't they strive to be better?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I would love for them to come to the church I go to.  They have a right to chose Jesus as their Savior just as I do.


Many have been church goers for years. They love God as much as anyone else.

On the other hand, many have also been ejected for faithfully loving someone of the same gender while serial adulterers have been tolerated and continue to be office bearers and elders. And let's not even mention the countless children who have been sexually abused within church organisations by professing Christians.

Jesus had a way of speaking out fearlessly in condemnation of hypocrisy of religious practices of his time. It remains the log in the eye of the church when it preaches loud and long against the sins of others.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 10, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Ah but shouldn't they strive to be better?


We do
Most my Christian buds are rough around the edges
The grace of God smooths them some......some

My buds and I know where we come from, where we've been

Patience is more than a virtue


----------



## win231 (Feb 10, 2022)

1955 said:


> TAOISM:    Crap happens.
> HINDUISM: This crap happened before.
> CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: crap happens.
> BUDDHISM: It is only an illusion of crap happening.
> ...


I have a T-Shirt with that on it.  Love it!


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 10, 2022)

Shero said:


> Actually, I was hoping for a more personal answer, not what the church does once a year as a body. But if that if your answer, then I will not press the point.


I was trying to avoid verbosity. Below is a statement from the President of the Uniting Church in Australia (3rd biggest denomination after Roman Catholics and Anglicans)



> Religious Discrimination Bill must protect all
> 
> 
> The Uniting Church in Australia is concerned that the revised Religious Discrimination Bill 2021 introduced to Parliament this week does not achieve the balance needed to protect the rights of all people. The third and final draft of the bill was introduced to Parliament by Prime Minister Scott Morrison on Thursday morning.
> ...


Yesterday the Government's legislation that would have allowed religious schools to expel transgender children was voted down when four members of the government crossed the floor to vote with the opposition and members of the cross bench.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I know that I am a Christrian and I spend time listening to His Word being preached every morning.  I pray because it is important to pray to Him and yes, the Bible REALLY IS the Word of God.  I am sorry to hear this bad news. But, I have read the Bible through from cover to cover and the Word is living and very powerful.  And believing in Jesus as your personal Savior is a very important decision in your life.  He is the only way, the only truth and the only Savior.  Without Him, you are lost and you don't want to put your trust in anything else.  He brings His Holy Spirit to live in you and guide you in life when you verbally accept Him as your Savior.  Please, keep your hope and relationship with Jesus.


  I don't know who Jesus is anymore. He is an idea in my mind but I can't worship that idea any longer. Many of my Christian friens have tried to bring me back to Jesus. I think , they think, that i have fallen from his grace, because I sinned too much now and have lost my way. After 30 years they still love me and probably still pray for me, so they are the one's who are hoping that I get right with God. I am afraid I am a lost cause. I am wondering if I fit in anywhere now.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> "how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?"
> 
> That my friend is where the rubber meets the road.
> 
> ...



 The Kingdon of Heaven has no meaning to me anymore. Neither does hell, except the suffering in our present life. But, if the Bible is the true Word of God, my ate is eternity in Hell. Fortunately I no longer believe the Bible is the Word of God, and I have no idea what eternity is or if this one life is it and then nothing. ( which sounds fine to me )


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

Shero said:


> All of these religions around the world believe their Holy Book is the Word and nothing wrong with that!
> 
> 
> Baha'iThe Seven Valleys and The Four ValleysBuddhismTipitakaChristianityChristian BibleHinduismThe Vedas and The UpanishadsIslamThe Quran and The HadithsJainismThe AgamasJudaismThe Tanakh and The TalmudShintoismKojikiSikhismGuru Granth SahibTaoismDao De JingWiccaThe Book of ShadowsZoroastrianismThe Avesta


  Probably all of those religions teach that love and devotion to god is their basic belief, and yet all of them hate others and are even willing to kill others. I don't get it!


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> I wasn't going to enter this discussion because it can be a bit labor intensive...and then BAM! You got me
> 
> The Bible teaches that whether we are Christian or non-Christian we are all sinners with choices between good and evil. The difference though is that Christians are not sinning the same sin over and over forever...thus not truly Christians. Instead they are asking forgiveness and repenting and growing more sinless over time...but do fall prey on occasion to temptation. But only God knows their hearts and only God can judge who is sincere and who isn't because we're all sinners. He gives us a hint though as to how to spot those who are insincere and those who are sincere Christians...
> 
> God says He will forgive our sin many times if we are sincerely growing as true followers of His Word.  But when He sees no desire to please Him, no repentance, no growth toward being Christ-like (aka sinless) then He said, using a parable as an example, that some will say "Lord Lord, and I will know them not". In other words...they talk the talk but they don't walk the walk..nor care to change. And God will not view them as a true believer and follower. He says we are not to be the judge but we will know them by their fruits.


  I use to teach this to non- believers emphasizing God's love and mercy. Jesus took all our sins away when he spilled his blood on the cross. God is Love...if we feel far from God, guess who moved."
  After I went my own way, I began to smoke tobacco , and drink moderately/heavy, go to bars, have sex with whoever I wanted to, and never read the Bible or go to church. In the recent past my health has diminished a lot and I have been pondering if I have gone so far away from Jesus that I can't find my way back. I really don't think I can, so I have accepted my death and have no idea what happens after.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> That particular verse isn't based on works of the flesh-good or bad.  Jesus paid for all, not just some, but all sin.  Yes, we repent and ask for forgiveness.  Being a believer is a condition of the heart and mind.  God is our heavenly Father, and Jesus is our Savior and He is always there for us.  *He knew each of us before the creation of the earth.  He knew all about our little lives even before He created us.*


Somehow that resonates within me and is comforting to believe that. Maybe we all are messed up, and God created us that way so we would find our way back to Him?


----------



## dseag2 (Feb 10, 2022)

My answer is in this thread...

https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/religious-yes-or-no.66938/page-2#post-1947940


----------



## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I was trying to avoid verbosity. Below is a statement from the President of the Uniting Church in Australia (3rd biggest denomination after Roman Catholics and Anglicans)
> 
> 
> Yesterday the Government's legislation that would have allowed religious schools to expel transgender children was voted down when four members of the government crossed the floor to vote with the opposition and members of the cross bench.Thnk


Thank you for your reply.  much appreciated.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 10, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I have been pondering if I have gone so far away from Jesus that I can't find my way back. I really don't think I can, so I have accepted my death and have no idea what happens after.



Life deals some pretty tough hands

I......have been the dealer
Worst of the worst 

@Paco Dennis 
If He can work in my wretched heart, He surely still can, and will, with yours


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

Lara said:


> God doesn't remove the ability to sin because he wants us to make that choice between good and evil...between God or Worldly  desires. Otherwise, what's the point...we would just be puppets or robots. That wasn't His plan. His plan is to have a loving relationship with us just as a child with an earthly father. God is our heavenly father and we are his children who should respect and obey His words.


It is the parable of the prodigal son. I understand this, but my home is no longer there where it use to be, and there is no forwarding address. I can't find "home" anywhere.


----------



## Shero (Feb 10, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Probably all of those religions teach that love and devotion to god is their basic belief, and yet all of them hate others and are even willing to kill others. I don't get it!


  Way of the world? I do not believe we need religion to be good people.
As a matter of fact, I think in many instances, religion is a huge obstacle to a person being good.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

Shero said:


> Who is God?
> 
> I would also most respectfully like to ask this question of the devout Christians on this thread. There is a battle now going on in the Australian senate with regard to transgender and gay people.
> 
> ...


  The minister in the OP video says that homosexuality is an abomination to God?


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 10, 2022)

I can't accept the Bible as being the only book on earth that IS Gods words. So unless He rearranges me somehow I will die outside the beliefs that are in the Bible. My heart has hardened and there is no way back. I appreciate all the information about this from the members here. I am non-judgemental about what a person believes, and I guess I have my own beliefs somewhere, i just can't locate them.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 10, 2022)

What was the word of god before there was a bible? And what were Christian like people called before there was religion?


----------



## David777 (Feb 10, 2022)

I am not one that wishes to publicly spread terse statements that will injure traditional beliefs of others, especially on an informal public web board. I will engage in narrow facets of Christian religious discussion but not in a thread like this that is posed so broadly that the result has little value as responses in this thread have shown.  Challenge me for an opinion on any part of The Bible including Genesis so many base their disbelief on. I heard enough over the first couple minutes to understand where the OP's 8 minute video was headed I had no interest in listening to, so exited it there.  

There has been a total investment in Christian churches over centuries, particularly Protestant, in total belief in the Bible, both Old and New Testament.  Much dogma has been expanded from writings of saints and church leaders that has little to vague direct Bible basis. The actual Jewish religious sects of the OT obviously didn't share a belief in inerrancy because they regularly changed parts and added much that Jesus himself commented on.  And the wide range of Christian denomination interpretations on many specifics demands sober reappraisal.

When the 16th century Reformation occurred it was catalyzed by at the same time, the first printing of the Bible that removed its secret writings from those few in the Catholic church that tightly controlled its interpretation.  While the Catholic church in the 20th century eventually distanced itself from rigid inerrancy of the Bible, other denominations have doggedly refused to do so because their house of cards would crumble.  And indeed, given this modern era age of science, technology, and WWW allowing everyone globally to now read what many scholars have been actually relating for centuries in the dark, that is coming to pass.

Although many like those in the OP's video may think by rejecting inerrancy, one has hopelessly lost their faith, I am one that believes that need not be the case.  Ironically what can bring to those facing that dilemma back into strong faith is science itself that I personally have been building up argumentation for to help others.  Many of the reasons former Christians and atheists reject Christianity is not about God or what I view as an Ultimate Intelligent Entity, UIE, race but rather interpreted church dogma. There is still much in the Bible to guide humans to possible eternal life and indeed some was given to human prophets and others including Jesus to spread to we Earth monkeys.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> The minister in the OP video says that homosexuality is an abomination to God?


I know! Several of my close friends have been gay/lesbian/etc. I have been very attracted to males at times and wondered if that was a weird temptation. The rules in the Old Testament get really weird, and nobody except fanatics keep those laws. So when do the commandments stop...or it was Moses's civil law based on being unclen! Like a women who mensturates can't do certain things , but they slaughter goats and blood is all over their village on doors. What is clean about that? There seems to be a lot of juggling of Scripture to come up with any conclusions on many issues.


----------



## Lavinia (Feb 11, 2022)

It is a mistake to believe unconditionally in what you are told. This applies to the Bible as much as anything else. Those who take the trouble to think for themselves will realise that the Bible is basically a history book.'God' is being held responsible for all that happens.
One of the things I wonder about as regards Jesus is the fact that his sermons were recorded by someone. This means that his followers were educated people, able to read and write, not the simple peasants we are taught.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

David777 said:


> I am not one that wishes to publicly spread terse statements that will injure traditional beliefs of others, especially on an informal public web board.* I will engage in narrow facets of Christian religious discussion but not in a thread like this that is posed so broadly that the result has little value as responses in this thread have shown.  Challenge me for an opinion on any part of The Bible including Genesis so many base their disbelief on. I heard enough over the first couple minutes to understand where the OP's 8 minute video was headed I had no interest in listening to, so exited it there.  *
> 
> There has been a total investment in Christian churches over centuries, particularly Protestant, in total belief in the Bible, both Old and New Testament.  Much dogma has been expanded from writings of saints and church leaders that has little to vague direct Bible basis. The actual Jewish religious sects of the OT obviously didn't share a belief in inerrancy because they regularly changed parts and added much that Jesus himself commented on.  And the wide range of Christian denomination interpretations on many specifics demands sober reappraisal.
> 
> ...



You say there is little value in the responses to the OP. How is it that you assess them that way? Is being sincere about what you believe of little value? To think you know the big picture in advance of being patient enough to possibly hear the whole story seems a little self important. And then to lecture on the "real" reasons for this also seems impatient. I would bet that almost all people our age have contemplated this, and they all have a different response. Just like yours....so why does it seem so final and special?

I will challenge you on the Creation story that cause so many to disbelieve.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> It is a mistake to believe unconditionally in what you are told. This applies to the Bible as much as anything else. Those who take the trouble to think for themselves will realise that the Bible is basically a history book.'God' is being held responsible for all that happens.
> One of the things I wonder about as regards Jesus is the fact that his sermons were recorded by someone. This means that his followers were educated people, able to read and write, not the simple peasants we are taught.


I have studied how the Gospels came about. No one really knows for sure when and by whom they were written. 


_"Gospel of Matthew__c. 80–90 CE.[74] This is based on three strands of evidence: (a) the setting of Matthew reflects the final separation of Church and Synagogue, about 85 CE; (b) it reflects the capture of Jerusalem and destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70 CE; (c) it uses Mark, usually dated around 70 CE, as a source.[75]__𝔓104 (2nd century)__Gospel of Mark__c. 65–73 CE.[76][77] References to persecution and to war in Judea suggest that its context was either Nero's persecution of the Christians in Rome or the Jewish revolt.[78]__𝔓45 (250 CE)__Gospel of Luke__c. 80–90 CE.[79][80] Text indicates written a generation after that of the first disciples, uses Gospel of Mark, and appears to address concerns raised by the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.[81]__𝔓4, 𝔓75 (175–250 CE)__Gospel of John__c. 90–110 CE, the upper date based on textual evidence that the gospel was known in the early 2nd century, and the lower on an internal reference to the expulsion of Christians from the synagogues.[82]__𝔓52 (125–175 CE)__Acts__c. 80–90 CE, on the grounds that Luke-Acts uses Mark as a source, looks back on the destruction of Jerusalem, and does not show any awareness of the letters of Paul (which began circulating late in the century); if, however, it does show awareness of the letters of Paul and also of the works of Josephus, then a date early in the 2nd century is more likely.[83][84][85]__𝔓29, 𝔓45, 𝔓48, 𝔓53, 𝔓91 (250 CE)__Romans__c. 57–58 CE.[86] One of the indisputably genuine Pauline letters, written to the Romans as Paul was about to leave Asia Minor and Greece, and expressing his hopes to continue his work in Spain.[76]__𝔓46 (mid 2nd century to mid 3rd century CE)__1 Corinthians__c. 53–57 CE.[87] One of the indisputably genuine Pauline letters. Paul expresses his intention to re-visit the church he founded in the city c. 50–52 CE.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__2 Corinthians__c. 55–58 CE.[88] One of the indisputably genuine Pauline letters.  Written by Paul in Macedonia after having left Ephesus.[89]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__Galatians__c. 48 or 55 CE.[90] One of the indisputably genuine Pauline letters.  The dating of this letter depends on whether it was written to the northern or southern portion of Galatia (with the former representing the later date). [91]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__Ephesians__c. 80–90 CE. The letter appears to have been written after Paul's death in Rome, by an author who uses his name.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__Philippians__c. 54–55 CE. A genuine Pauline letter, it mentions "Caesar's household," leading some scholars to believe that it is written from Rome, but some of the news in it could not have come from Rome. It seems rather to date from an earlier imprisonment, perhaps in Ephesus, from which Paul hopes to be released.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__Colossians__c. 62–70 CE. Some scholars believe Colossians dates from Paul's imprisonment in Ephesus around 55 CE, but differences in the theology suggest that it comes from much later in his career, around the time of his imprisonment in Rome.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__1 Thessalonians__c. 51 CE. One of the earliest of the genuine Pauline epistles.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__2 Thessalonians__c. 51 CE or post-70 CE. If this is a genuine Pauline epistle it follows closely on 1 Thessalonians. But some of the language and theology point to a much later date, from an unknown author using Paul's name.[76]__𝔓92 (300 CE)__1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Epistle to Titus__c. 100 CE. The two Timothy epistles and Titus reflect a much more developed Church organization than that reflected in the genuine Pauline epistles.[76]__Codex Sinaiticus (350 CE)𝔓32 (200 CE)__Philemon__c. 54–55 CE. A genuine Pauline epistle, written from an imprisonment (probably in Ephesus) that Paul expects will soon be over.[76]__𝔓87 (3rd century CE)__Hebrews__c. 80–90 CE. The elegance of the Greek and the sophistication of the theology do not fit the genuine Pauline epistles, but the mention of Timothy in the conclusion led to its being included with the Pauline group from an early date.[76]__𝔓46 (late 2nd century or 3rd century CE)__James__c. 65–85 CE. Like Hebrews, James is not so much a letter as an exhortation; the style of the Greek makes it unlikely that it was actually written by James the brother of Jesus.[76]__𝔓20, 𝔓23 (early 3rd century CE)__First Peter__c. 75–90 CE[76]__𝔓72 (3rd/4th century CE)__Second Peter__c. 110 CE. This is apparently the latest writing in the New Testament, quoting from Jude, assuming a knowledge of the Pauline letters, and including a reference to the gospel story of the Transfiguration of Christ.[76]__𝔓72 (3rd/4th century CE)__Epistles of John__c. 90–110 CE.[92] The letters give no clear indication, but scholars tend to place them about a decade after the Gospel of John.[92]__𝔓9, Uncial 0232, Codex Sinaiticus (3rd/4th century CE)__Jude__Uncertain, c. 50–110 CE. The references to "brother of James" and to "what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold" suggest that it was written after the apostolic letters were in circulation, but before 2 Peter, which uses it.[76]__𝔓72 (3rd/4th century CE)__Revelation__c. 95 CE. The date is suggested by clues in the visions pointing to the reign of the emperor Domitian.[76]_
_"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible_


----------



## 1955 (Feb 11, 2022)

Shero said:


> Way of the world? I do not believe we need religion to be good people.
> As a matter of fact, I think in many instances, religion is a huge obstacle to a person being good.


Hallelujah, my sentiments as well...


----------



## Pepper (Feb 11, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> What was the word of god before there was a bible? And what were Christian like people called before there was religion?


Goyim


----------



## Capt Lightning (Feb 11, 2022)

Tell me please someone, how can you be born a "sinner"?


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## charry (Feb 11, 2022)

Im an athiest …..


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## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Tell me please someone, how can you be born a "sinner"?


We were born bad so that we can enjoy God when we find Him. I think that is the apparent logic, but who says it needs to be logical, because Gods thoughts are far superior to ours...even though we are made in his image.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Somehow that resonates within me and is comforting to believe that. Maybe we all are messed up, and God created us that way so we would find our way back to Him?


God created us, and he gave us the power of making our own choices, good and bad.  Hopefully we learn the consequences of bad choices and the blessings of good choices.  Just living by 10 commandments alone is a good base to start off with.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 11, 2022)

*My religion is kindness, my spirituality another matter. It is not  linear enough for words, but it nourishes my soul when I am bereft, and flows out through love and laughter. I was 

raised in the Christian church, among a family of believers, but it never resonated with me. I am an experiential being, I need to feel my beliefs whatever they may be, religious or 

otherwise. I leave theology to the theologians, they may argue how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, or what is man made versus divine. I need a purpose. I have found mine through serving others. *


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> We were born bad so that we can enjoy God when we find Him. I think that is the apparent logic, but who says it needs to be logical, because Gods thoughts are far superior to ours...even though we are made in his image.
> 
> View attachment 207996


Yes, he is superior to us and since He is our "Father" we are to rely on Him and follow His ways.  He is our teacher, the best!


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

charry said:


> Im an athiest …..


That is your choice.  Definitely not one I would chose.


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## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

charry said:


> Im an athiest …..



 Doesn't being an atheist take belief? I can't go there either because it too is based on faith. Faith that there is no God, because we do not know that God doesn't exist.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> It is a mistake to believe unconditionally in what you are told. This applies to the Bible as much as anything else. Those who take the trouble to think for themselves will realise that the Bible is basically a history book.'God' is being held responsible for all that happens.
> One of the things I wonder about as regards Jesus is the fact that his sermons were recorded by someone. This means that his followers were educated people, able to read and write, not the simple peasants we are taught.


True, we are to discern between good and bad teachings.  Even among beliefs.  What is real and what is of mankind.  Your eternal home after life will depend on it.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Doesn't being an atheist take belief? I can't go there either because it too is based on faith. Faith that there is no God, because we do not know that God doesn't exist.


God does exist.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I know! Several of my close friends have been gay/lesbian/etc. I have been very attracted to males at times and wondered if that was a weird temptation. The rules in the Old Testament get really weird, and nobody except fanatics keep those laws. So when do the commandments stop...or it was Moses's civil law based on being unclen! Like a women who mensturates can't do certain things , but they slaughter goats and blood is all over their village on doors. What is clean about that? There seems to be a lot of juggling of Scripture to come up with any conclusions on many issues.


There are only 10 commandments given by God, mankind added 600+ which made it impossible to keep them all.  However, those 10 given by God are not impossible to keep.


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## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> The minister in the OP video says that homosexuality is an abomination to God?


Got 2 angry reactions to this.  I hope you don't think i believe that nonsense. Please read my post a few down from that one. I think the view that homosexuality is and abomination is INSANE!

https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...e-bible-is-the-word-of-god.68688/post-2008272


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Shero said:


> Way of the world? I do not believe we need religion to be good people.
> As a matter of fact, I think in many instances, religion is a huge obstacle to a person being good.


Some people are really nice and helpful people but they are not believers and their soul is lost.  i have high hopes they will find God.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Got 2 angry reactions to this.  I hope you don't think i believe that nonsense. Please read my post a few down from that one. I think the view that homosexuality is and abomination is INSANE!
> 
> https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...e-bible-is-the-word-of-god.68688/post-2008272


Maybe you think it is insane, but it really, really is an abomination to God.  However, there are a lot of choices we make that are so bad and senseless, and when we decide to make better choices our lives will be better.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Goyim


In the garden of Eden....... there were limits put on those two people and when they lived by those limits life was grand.  But, when they did not live by those limits they were banished from that lovely garden.  The Bible back then was the direct relationship between man and God.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> If asked I usually do say I am a Christian, but that is by birth and upbring.  I no longer believe the supernatural parts of the religion or that the Bible, or anything else, is the word of God.
> 
> That said I think Christians and members of other religions do a lot of good and have a lot of good ideas.  I also enjoy the holidays, Christmas, Mardi Gras, Easter, Halloween, etc.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 11, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> If asked I usually do say I am a Christian, but that is by birth and upbring.  I no longer believe the supernatural parts of the religion or that the Bible, or anything else, is the word of God.
> 
> That said I think Christians and members of other religions do a lot of good and have a lot of good ideas.  I also enjoy the holidays, Christmas, Mardi Gras, Easter, Halloween, etc.


I was brought up going to church and when I got older I decided to do my own investigating.  I have found that I love basing my life on Scripture of the Bible and it is my "stronghold" when hard times come.  I still love starting each day praying the Lord's prayer.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I no longer believe the Bible is the Word of God, and I have no idea what eternity is or if this one life is it and then nothing. ( which sounds fine to me )


Biblical prophecy did it for me

Don't have to be a biblical scholar to see some things, some happenings, now
Matthew 24 is a tidy little recap


As far as an agony in eternal hell.......not so
Yer jus' dead......forever

Don't take too long, @Paco Dennis


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## Pepper (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> In the garden of Eden....... there were limits put on those two people and when they lived by those limits life was grand.  But, when they did not live by those limits they were banished from that lovely garden.  The Bible back then was the direct relationship between man and God.


You are half correct.  The Talmud discusses how leaving the garden was a liberation and growth for mankind and was a good and necessary act by G-d for his people.  Kind of like a parent who, out of good intent, has to kick his/her kid from the childhood home in order for them to reach their potential.  Don't want to argue with you though.  Just giving you the perspective from the people who wrote the damn thing.  Peace.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Feb 11, 2022)

Are you a Christian and do you believe the Bible is the word of God?​* No, and No.*


----------



## terry123 (Feb 11, 2022)

I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.  And that is all I will say and I will not argue about it.  We each have to find our path to God.


----------



## JaniceM (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I was a born again Christian for 10 years. I studied the Bible and prayed daily. The church was where all my friends were. I believed the Bible was God's word and Jesus was the only way to be saved. That IS what the Bible says. The Bible is very straight forward about accepting Christ as your savior and following Him above all else. He teaches that money is the root of evil, and that adultery doesn't need to be physical, because lust is a sin.
> I am no longer a Christian, because I no longer believe that the Bible is "god's word". If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?
> 
> This video points out the difference in saying you are a Christian and yet ignore what the Bible teaches.


I'd start with two questions from the title of your thread:
1.  Define 'Christian.'
2.  Which Bible?  

To posters who replied in the affirmative, I have two questions:
1.  In the New Testament, there are at least 2 books (that I know of) that provide detailed accounts of Jesus's birth.. do you believe what was said is accurate?
2.  I've read numerous things on the reason for baptism;  while they're similar, one seems especially compatible with many christians' viewpoints of "getting saved":  *Getting saved is a free gift, from God to us, that includes forgiveness of our sins, eternal life and guaranteed entrance into heaven through Jesus Christ*.
Does this coincide with what you believe on this topic?


----------



## Jackie23 (Feb 11, 2022)

I was brought up with the Southern Baptist Church....lets just say I've lost faith in what that church teaches....I was going to say that I don't have any criticism of other's religion, but I do....and that is the fact that so many evangelicals but their faith in political figures that are anything but what a christian should be and they do untold damage to the country and the world...


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 11, 2022)

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I really doubt any God would be this petty, and if he is, it may be time to look for a new one. Mike



fancicoffee13 said:


> Maybe you think it is insane, but it really, really is an abomination to God. However, there are a lot of choices we make that are so bad and senseless, and when we decide to make better choices our lives will be better.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> I'd start with two questions from the title of your thread:
> 1. Define 'Christian.'
> 2. Which Bible?


1. a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity.

2. the Christian scriptures, consisting of the Old and New Testaments.


----------



## David777 (Feb 11, 2022)

Actually @Paco Dennis you did well and were considerate as the thread poster though all the sub posts about sin etc worked against focus.

@Paco Dennis >>>Are you a Christian and do you believe the Bible is the word of God?

Would have been better posed "Are you a Christian and only if so do you believe the Bible is the word of God?  

You then added briefly where you were personally coming from that is always appropriate.  Then in your OP, you added yet another sub-question "...If you think you are a Christian, how do you reconcile what the Bible teaches and the way you believe and behave?"  And that added all the posts about sin, diluted the title discussion.

With many forum subjects, that would have been appropriate left as is however predictably given how strong many feel above anything religious, those inputs became subjects for some members to post on alone without addressing your title questions.  Unfortunately post threads on Internet forums are full of land mines where one's intended subject is easily hijacked and abandoned by others unless one carefully crafts opening posts. 

Post responding to the #7 about sin could be sub divided more. 
vaguely...
Posts that responded to the title questions #2 3 4 5 6 8 18 21 22 23 24 33 42 43 45 46 52 53 60 61 62 65 66 67 71 75 77 79 81 84 87 88 89 92 96 97 99 100 101 102 103 104
Posts that responded to the sub-question #7 9 10 11 12 13 14 16 19 20 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 35 36 37 39 40 49 63 64 68 69 78 80 82 85
Posts not addressing any posts #15 17 38 44
Posts that responded to #38, posts 41
Posts that responded to #44, posts 48 50 51 54 55 56 57 58 59 70 74 91 93 94 98 
David's post #73 76


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> We were born bad so that we can enjoy God when we find Him. I think that is the apparent logic, but who says it needs to be logical, because Gods thoughts are far superior to ours...even though we are made in his image.
> 
> View attachment 207996





fancicoffee13 said:


> God created us, and he gave us the power of making our own choices, good and bad.  Hopefully we learn the consequences of bad choices and the blessings of good choices.  Just living by 10 commandments alone is a good base to start off with.



Wow that's just great.  What  sort of god creates people "bad" and then insists that they worship 'him' so that they get a ticket to heaven?
That's like running a protection racket.   Not only does this god create 'bad' people but just to rub it in, some are born with terrible illnesses or deformities.  If there was a god (which I don't believe there is)  the one you describe is not the sort I'd want to know.

So answer to the original question   ...  NO and NO.


----------



## David777 (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> ...I will challenge you on the Creation story that cause so many to disbelieve.


Please do including the rest of Genesis, but not within this thread that has run its course, so start a new thread thank you.  It is at the core of why so many no longer believe.


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

David777 said:


> Actually @Paco Dennis you did well and were considerate as the thread poster though all the sub posts about sin etc worked against focus.
> 
> @Paco Dennis >>>Are you a Christian and do you believe the Bible is the word of God?
> 
> ...



  When I watched that OP video, I was struck by the "interpretations" of the Bible. How so many Christians take the Bible literally, and people who call themselves Christian have expanded the words in the Bible to include interpretations that are not Biblical. Quite a contrast. I am well aware of this and I think what you believe to be true is true for you, not everyone else. That is why I posed the question, because I can't get myself to believe in anything. I would rather know the facts.


----------



## charry (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Doesn't being an atheist take belief? I can't go there either because it too is based on faith. Faith that there is no God, because we do not know that God doesn't exist.


No, paco, an  athiest doesnt believe in religion in any form


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## charry (Feb 11, 2022)

There is no real evidence that god existed…..its like a load of fairy storys ……


----------



## Paco Dennis (Feb 11, 2022)

David777 said:


> Please do including the rest of Genesis, but not within this thread that has run its course, so start a new thread thank you.  It is at the core of why so many no longer believe.


  There so much in the Bible that is myth and miraculous that Genesis is just the tip of the iceberg. Parting of the Red Sea, Noah's Ark, David and Goliath, etc.... Jesus turning water into wine, raising dead people ( Lazarus ), walking on water, etc.... I have no problem with myth, but when myth is considered factual there is reason to not believe. So we would have to go through the whole thing to point out why people doubt these stories.  Thanks for the very thoughtful replies.


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## David777 (Feb 11, 2022)

Indeed the wise strategy is not to have absolute beliefs unless they are based on facts and merely lean in relative degrees on issues that are not.  Unfortunately in common English conversation, the use of the term "believe" has morphed into more relative senses.  For example, "I believe I will have lunch at noon today" would better be posed as "I expect I will have lunch about noon today".  Or "I believe the stock market will rise today so will buy ATT", ought be ""I suspect the stock market will rise today so gambling will buy ATT".



Paco Dennis said:


> There so much in the Bible that is myth and miraculous that Genesis is just the tip of the iceberg. Parting of the Red Sea, Noah's Ark, David and Goliath, etc.... Jesus turning water into wine, raising dead people ( Lazarus ), walking on water, etc.... I have no problem with myth, but when myth is considered factual there is reason to not believe. So we would have to go through the whole thing to point out why people doubt these stories.  Thanks for the very thoughtful reply.


Well just pick any one section and I'll remove supernaturalism from any.  Am away the rest of today.


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## Sunny (Feb 11, 2022)

Of course not.


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## Serenity4321 (Feb 11, 2022)

I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.. IMO, for the most part It is not to be taken literally, . I claim to be a Christian because I do believe in the  teachings of Jesus. Of course I also believe in and admire Buddhism   There is truth in all religions and what I disapprove of is the claim of exclusivity by any religion. Of course I also understand this is a stance that could benefit some so I _live and let live_


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## palides2021 (Feb 11, 2022)

I am an Orthodox Christian and-

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one  Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-be-gotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all Ages. Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation, He came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and He suffered and was buried.
And He rose on the third day according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son, is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke through the Prophets.
I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I confess One Baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead.
And the life of the Age to come.
AMEN


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## 1955 (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Some people are really nice and helpful people but they are not believers and their soul is lost.  i have high hopes they will find God.


I respect your faith & am happy you feel secure in it.  I don’t think any less of you because of it and that's the crux of it.  I feel that many religious followers such as yourself use words like “their soul is lost”, “i have high hopes they will find God”.  In the Muslim parlance I’m an infidel like someone of no stature.  I was not able to attend my nieces wedding because I did not belong to the Mormon church or didn’t meet their requirements to be present in their inner sanctum.

I’m perfectly happy with my beliefs & don’t feel lost at all.  The universe knows what it’s doing & I’m content that I’m a part of it just like yourself.

In my mind it’s a tragedy that so many religious groups have these kinds of thoughts about other people.  What a waste to discount so many people.

I believe we all came from the same place & that’s where were going when our time is up.  Pure love has no religious connotations or right/wrong facets.

I am not a perfect person by any means but the universe gave me something that I believe in & that’s to become the best person I’m capable of.  After 66 years I haven’t got it right yet but the light is stronger than ever.

I'm not really picking on you, just your choice of words that many people subscribe to.


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## Serenity4321 (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> The first commandment says, "You hall have no other gods before Me".  When you deny God, that is unforgiveable.  the only time.


I can not accept anything as being unforgivable.. God is all forgiving and no matter how long it takes I believe we get chance after chance to get it right. I am not too enthusiastic about reincarnation but it kind of does make sense and seems 'fair' but who knows....


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## JaniceM (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> 1. a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity.
> 
> 2. the Christian scriptures, consisting of the Old and New Testaments.


1.  Do you believe that includes individuals who were baptized as infants- or only individuals who did this later on in life?

2.  While there are individuals who believe 'their' religion/denomination is the only right one, there are also those who believe NO denomination constitutes "Christianity."  They say Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc., are not true Christians.  

3.  One oddity is referring to the Old Testament as part of "Christian scriptures" while the first 24 books are actually Jewish Holy Books.  

4.  Additionally, though, are you aware of how many versions and translations there are of the Bible?  
Although it was written over an extended period of time, by many different people, and in various languages, what many referred to as 'the Bible' not too many decades ago is NOT what's being presented these days.  
There are actually numerous versions that are specifically 'Christian,' including some with the name in their titles.  And there are huge differences.  I mentioned this not too long ago in another thread, can't find it, but here's another example:  

The King James Version, which I heard was long the most popular, states as 1 John 3:15 as
_Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer._

New International Version reads: _ Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer._

Yet, The Living Bible words it as:  Anyone who hates his Christian brother is really a murderer at heart.  

A little further along in 1 John, KJV says:  _we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren._
The Living Bible says:  _we also ought to lay down our lives for our Christian brothers._

Jesus never used the word 'Christian.'  Nor did it exist in the Old Testament.  And despite its longtime popularity, the KJV only uses the word Christian 3 times.  So I'm kinda wondering why people aren't picking up on these discrepancies.


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## Packerjohn (Feb 11, 2022)

I never, never argue religion nor politics because I never, never win.  Folks always think they are right and who am I "to blow against the wind?"


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> Doesn't being an atheist take belief?


Yeah, that's the tougher one to swallow for me.
I've been agnostic most my life.

And the evolution theory.....whoa
Pretty much akin to taking a clock apart
Putting it in a bag
and shaking the crap outa that bag for 17 gazillion years, or however long it takes
to become a clock....

Now, the big bang seems a bit more feasible
took about six days


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

terry123 said:


> I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. And that is all I will say and I will not argue about it. We each have to find our path to God.


I so love that simple, sweet statement


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Yeah, that's the tougher one to swallow for me.
> I've been agnostic most my life.
> 
> And the evolution theory.....whoa
> ...


No, a clock is a clock. It is inanimate and cannot change.  Now, organic life - well that's a different matter.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Now, organic life - well that's a different matter.


And where in hell did *'organic life'* come from?


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

I gotta say one thing here, then I've got wood to butcher;

Prolly off topic, but

I firmly believe God's people are in every sect, religion, kindred, tongue, and people

I know some of 'em
A true blessing

and will be united in the end
of which don't seem all that far off


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## mrstime (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> The minister in the OP video says that homosexuality is an abomination to God?


Ah but aren't Christians supposed to follow Jesus, rather than the old testament?  And if they are supposed to follow the old testament there are many things they should be doing but resist doing.For instance.....
11 Things The Bible Bans, But You Do Anyway





The Bible bans things like round haircuts, football, divorce, wearing gold and tattoos.

Yesterday, I found myself in a discussion about the anti-abortion people. The reason: It’s just incomprehensible to us that people get so zealous about that issue that they’ll go as far as to murder doctors who perform abortions and bomb abortion clinics.
The conversation then took its natural turn to selective, self-serving interpretations of the Bible… finding a few verses that you can use to justify a position that lets you impose your morality on someone, and riding those verses hard and fast for the rest of your life.
So I thought it’d be a good time to find a bunch of stuff that the Bible bans… stuff that’s a lot LESS convenient. Don’t worry, though… just because I’m pointing it out, that doesn’t mean you now have to follow it. It’s a lot easier to keep discriminating against gay people for no particular reason than to stop eating bacon, after all.
Here are 11 things that are technically banned by the Bible. (All quotes are translations from the New American Standard Bible, but, because I’m actually trying to maintain serious journalistic integrity here, I cross-referenced several other translations to make sure I wasn’t missing the point.)
1 | Round haircuts​See you in Hell, Beatles… and/or kids with bowl cuts, surfer cuts or (my favorite) butt cuts. Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”
2 | Football​At least, the pure version of football, where you play with a pigskin. The modern synthetic footballs are ugly and slippery anyways. Leviticus 11:8, which is discussing pigs, reads “You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”
And you’re doubly breaking that if you wake up, eat some sausage then go throw around the football. Or go to the county fair and enter a greased pig catching contest.
3 | Fortune telling​Before you call a 900 number (do people still call 900 numbers, by the way?), read your horoscope or crack open a fortune cookie, realize you’re in huge trouble if you do.
Leviticus 19:31 reads “Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.” The penalty for that? Check Leviticus 20:6: “As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.”
Seems like a lifetime of exile is a pretty harsh penalty for talking to Zoltar.
4 | Pulling out​The Bible doesn’t get too much into birth control… it’s clearly pro-populating but, back when it was written, no one really anticipated the condom or the sponge, so those don’t get specific bans.
But… pulling out does. One of the most famous ******-oriented Bible verses… the one that’s used as anti-masturbation rhetoric… is actually anti-pulling out.
It’s Genesis 38:9-10: “Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.”
Yep — pull out and get smote. That’s harsh.
5 | Tattoos​No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, “You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.”
Not even a little butterfly on your ankle. Or Thug Life across your abdomen. Or even, fittingly enough, a cross.
6 | Polyester, or any other fabric blends​The Bible doesn’t want you to wear polyester. Not just because it looks cheap. It’s sinfully unnatural.
Leviticus 19:19 reads, “You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.”
Check the tag on your shirt right now. Didn’t realize you were mid-sin at this exact second, did you? (Unless you checked the tag by rolling off your neighbor’s wife while you two were having anal sex in the middle of robbing a blind guy. Then your Lycra-spandex blend is really the least of your problems.)
7 | Divorce​The Bible is very clear on this one: No divorcing. You can’t do it. Because when you marry someone, according to Mark 10:8, you “are no longer two, but one flesh.” And, Mark 10:9 reads, “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
Mark gets even more hardcore about it a few verses later, in Mark 10:11-12, “And He said to them, ‘Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.'”
8 | Letting people without testicles into church​Whether you’ve been castrated or lost one or two balls to cancer isn’t important. The Bible doesn’t get that specific. It just says you can’t pray.
Deuteronomy 23:1 reads (this is the God’s Word translation, which spells it out better), “A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord.”
Oh, and the next verse says that if you’re a bastard, the child of a bastard… or even have a great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild of a bastard, you can’t come to church or synagogue either.
Deuteronomy 23:2 reads, “No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.”
9 | Wearing gold​1 Timothy 2:9 doesn’t like your gold necklace at all. Or your pearl necklace. Or any clothes you’re wearing that you didn’t get from Forever 21, Old Navy or H&M.
“Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”
10 | Shellfish​Leviticus 11:10 reads, “But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you.” And shellfish is right in that wheelhouse.
Leviticus 11 bans a TON of animals from being eaten (it’s THE basis for Kosher law); beyond shellfish and pig, it also says you can’t eat camel, rock badger, rabbit, eagle, vulture, buzzard, falcon, raven, crow, ostrich, owl, seagull, hawk, pelican, stork, heron, bat, winged insects that walk on four legs unless they have joints to jump with like grasshoppers (?), bear, mole, mouse, lizard, gecko, crocodile, chameleon and snail.
Sorry if that totally ruins your plans to go to a rock badger eat-off this weekend.
11 | Your wife defending your life in a fight by grabbing your attacker’s genitals​No joke. Deuteronomy actually devotes two verses to this exact scenario: Deuteronomy 25:11-12.
“If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.”
That’s impossible to misinterpret. Ladies, if your husband is getting mugged, make sure to kick the mugger in the pills. Do not do the grip and squeeze (no matter what _Miss Congeniality_ might advise). Or your hand needs to be cut off.
—
As a final note, I know that nine of these 11 cite the Old Testament, which Christianity doesn’t necessarily adhere to as law.
To which I say: If you’re going to ignore the section of Leviticus that bans about tattoos, pork, shellfish, round haircuts, polyester and football, how can you possibly turn around and quote Leviticus 18:22 (“You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”) as irrefutable law?


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## Mizmo (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> In the garden of Eden....... there were limits put on those two people and when they lived by those limits life was grand.  But, when they did not live by those limits they were banished from that lovely garden.  The Bible back then was the direct relationship between man and God.



I have to admire your tenacity in holding on to your beliefs.
As I said in an earlier post I believe we evolved from the sea  wherever that was way back then ( I'm not smart enough to know) and I also said  we did start off life in mummy's tummy in a sac of water  ......
Little tadpoles we were eh!  and oh how we evolve...
Just my tuppence worth again.


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> And where in hell did *'organic life'* come from?


That I don't know, but it's believed to have started about 4 billion years ago and it was a long time after that when the first humanoids appeared.
Forget the fairy tales of Adam and Eve.


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## JaniceM (Feb 11, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> I have to admire your tenacity in holding on to your beliefs.
> As I said in an earlier post I believe we evolved from the sea  wherever that was way back then ( I'm not smart enough to know) and I also said  we did start off life in mummy's tummy in a sac of water  ......
> Little tadpoles we were eh!  and oh how we evolve...
> Just my tuppence worth again.


But how did the life that you believe we evolved from get into the sea in the first place???


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## Mizmo (Feb 11, 2022)

JaniceM said:


> But how did the life that you believe we evolved from get into the sea in the first place???



Like I said...I am not smart enough to know.
Perhaps when the ice age melted and all the wooly mammoths were gone...maybe they  left something behind...who knows.
I don't for sure.
In my next life I will be sure to check all this ancient stuff out before I come back and tell the world !

right now I am off for a cup of coffee


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## JaniceM (Feb 11, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> Like I said...I am not smart enough to know.
> Perhaps when the ice age melted and all the wooly mammoths were gone...maybe they  left something behind...who knows.
> I don't for sure.
> In my next life I will be sure to check all this ancient stuff out before I come back and tell the world !
> ...


But where did the wooly mammoths come from?  

(enjoy your coffee!!)


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## Senenity (Feb 11, 2022)

'To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.'


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Tell me please someone, how can you be born a "sinner"?


Maybe because what Mommy and Daddy did to have you?
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Some people are really nice and helpful people but they are not believers and their soul is lost.  i have high hopes they will find God.


Yo cannot "lose" a soul. What non-sense!!!
,


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## drifter (Feb 11, 2022)

No.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God does exist.



Yes, I belive God does exist. 
However my God is far different to yours. My God does not abominate any of his creations.

He loves everything and everyone He created.
That is why He created them!

One of the main reasons I do not follow religious dogma, is because it is all man made and not by some of the nice people, but those who are  poor in spirit, they cannot see straight!!
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> There are only 10 commandments given by God, mankind added 600+ which made it impossible to keep them all.  However, those 10 given by God are not impossible to keep.



Those commandments are manmade. However, they are a wonderful guide for life. 
Some though are totally not possible in today's society.
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Maybe you think it is insane, but it really, really is an abomination to God.  However, there are a lot of choices we make that are so bad and senseless, and when we decide to make better choices our lives will be better.


Yes, I agree with Paco, the word " insane" is most apt.
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> In the garden of Eden....... there were limits put on those two people and when they lived by those limits life was grand.  But, when they did not live by those limits they were banished from that lovely garden.  The Bible back then was the direct relationship between man and God.


I have a Masters in Anthropology and Archaeology. I have travelled to where the Garden of Eden is supposed to have been.To  many who have studied this:  the Gadren of Eden was in Botswana.
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

The Bible is a collection of Christian texts that is the result of refinement by men who thought they were led by God to discern his teachings.

Jesus never wrote a word. He could not read nor write and even if he did it woud be all in Aramaic, the language he spoke.

The Bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus, and in Latin and Greek, then translated into English and other languages. A lot was lost in translation.
.


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

The first human ancestors appeared between five million and seven million years ago, but, before that life started in the sea.


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## Lara (Feb 11, 2022)

Paco Dennis said:


> I don't know who Jesus is anymore. He is an idea in my mind but I can't worship that idea any longer. Many of my Christian friends have tried to bring me back to Jesus. I think , they think, that i have fallen from his grace, because I sinned too much now and have lost my way. After 30 years they still love me and probably still pray for me, so they are the one's who are hoping that I get right with God. I am afraid I am a lost cause. I am wondering if I fit in anywhere now.


I can't believe I missed your honest heartfelt stream of consciousness. I'm sorry for my delayed response, @Paco Dennis  First let me say that I doubt  your friends think you have "fallen from grace because you've sinned too much". In fact, sounds to me like your friends know it's entirely the opposite in God's eyes. YOU are the one He wants to come to Him because you are in need of a Savior. That's God's whole reason for the life and death of Jesus in the New Testament. So you are definitely not a lost cause.

Try dwelling in the New Testament, especially Ephesians, Galatians, and all the books that start with "T" (Timothy, Titus etc) so you can come to know the "good news". It's like you watched a disturbing movie and turned it off before seeing the happy ending. You will see more clearly God's full plan for you today. Don't miss the gospel of John. Then go back to the Old Testament and read Proverbs and then Psalms. You will find that you fit right in. There is no sin that's too much except one...and that is never asking forgiveness and believing in Him even until death. You've already admitted you're a sinner and in need of a Savior. That's half of it.



Paco Dennis said:


> I use to teach this to non- believers emphasizing God's love and mercy. Jesus took all our sins away...on the cross. God is Love...if we feel far from God, guess who moved." After I went my own way, I began to smoke tobacco , and drink moderately/heavy, go to bars, have sex with whoever I wanted to, and never read the Bible or go to church. In the recent past my health has diminished a lot and I have been pondering if I have gone so far away from Jesus that I can't find my way back. I really don't think I can, so I have accepted my death and have no idea what happens after.


You haven't fallen as far away from Jesus as you think. The fact that you are pondering, is divine intervention according to my faith. I'm sure you've heard, "God hates the sin but loves the sinner." He doesn't want you to fight this battle alone.



Paco Dennis said:


> It is the parable of the prodigal son. I understand this, but my home is no longer there where it use to be, and there is no forwarding address. I can't find "home" anywhere.


After asking for forgiveness, ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit. You will feel "a peace that passes all understanding" and a joy. That's when you'll "find home" as you say.


Paco Dennis said:


> I can't accept the Bible as being the only book on earth that IS Gods words. So unless He rearranges me somehow I will die outside the beliefs that are in the Bible. My heart has hardened and there is no way back. I appreciate all the information about this from the members here. I am non-judgemental about what a person believes, and I guess I have my own beliefs somewhere, i just can't locate them.


Don't worry about not accepting the Bible as the only book on earth that is God's Word. After you ask forgiveness for your sins, ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and let go of what holds you. God will see to it that everything else will fall into place.


Paco Dennis said:


> ...The rules in the Old Testament get really weird, and nobody except fanatics keep those laws. So when do the commandments stop...or it was Moses's civil law


The 10 Commandments don't ever stop but the Mosaic Laws, the "weird laws" of the Old Testament stopped when Jesus came in the New Testament.


Paco Dennis said:


> they slaughter goats and blood is all over their village on doors. What is clean about that? There seems to be a lot of juggling of Scripture to come up with any conclusions on many issues.


Don't worry about what's in the Old Testament. It's important to be aware of history but Jesus shed His blood for our sins in the New Testament and much changed after that.


----------



## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

If anyone wants to remain sane, stop regurgitating these historical records of hundreds of years.

Instead do this: your mind will clear, you will see what the true God is. Find your mountain.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Ah but aren't Christians supposed to follow Jesus, rather than the old testament?


I gotta say here;

Jesus and his coming is interlaced throughout the Old Testament
From Genesis thru Malichi 

Even the seeming ridiculous rigors of the priests, in the holy and most holy places in the temple, all pointed to The Christ and His intercession  

There is so much in the 'old' testament pointing to Jesus. even paralleling His life, that, if properly studied, one will see Him. 

I thought you guys studied your Bibles....not just read them....


----------



## dseag2 (Feb 11, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Maybe you think it is insane, but it really, really is an abomination to God.  However, there are a lot of choices we make that are so bad and senseless, and when we decide to make better choices our lives will be better.


Sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think the fact that I am gay is an abomination in any way.  How would you feel if I called you an abomination to God?  What a disgusting and non-Christian thing to say. 

I did not choose to be this way, and God doesn't make mistakes.  I don't think my decisions were "bad and senseless".  I'm glad your religion is something that gives you satisfaction and hope, but don't try to denigrate my lifestyle.  I have a 30-year relationship, which is more than I can say for many "Christians", and I treat others with respect.  I grew up with enough criticism of my lifestyle.  I don't need yours.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Shero said:


> Those commandments are manmade. However, they are a wonderful guide for life.
> Some though are totally not possible in today's society.


Interesting

Which ones are not possible?


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## dseag2 (Feb 11, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> I was brought up with the Southern Baptist Church....lets just say I've lost faith in what that church teaches....I was going to say that I don't have any criticism of other's religion, but I do....and that is the fact that so many evangelicals but their faith in political figures that are anything but what a christian should be and they do untold damage to the country and the world...


I was brought up in the Southern Baptist Church as well, and as they would say... Amen!


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> I gotta say here;
> 
> Jesus and his coming is interlaced throughout the Old Testament
> From Genesis thru Malichi
> ...



You may have to wait a long time for Jesus returnin babe!
Wish you luck anyway!


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Interesting
> 
> Which ones are not possible?
> 
> View attachment 208117


1. Have you ever killed a chicken?  Then you have killed. Jesus never killed an animal.

2. Have you never called God's name in vain?

3. Do you do any work on the Sabbath?  Saturday for Jews and Sunday for Christians.

4. Do you keep the Sabbath holy? Do you go to church on Sundays?

I could go on but I am packing for our holiday.

However, Moses appears in the Old Testament, why do Christians stil adhere to the Ten Commandments if they discard the Old Testament ( as said by Lara).

Got it on the grapevine, there is ample evidence that Moses never existed.

If you have questions to ask of me, hang on to them,will answer when I return from our vacation.
.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Shero said:


> You may have to wait a long time for Jesus returnin babe!


Heh, who knows

could be imminent

But....no man knows the hour 

Check out Matthew 24


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## Shero (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> Heh, who knows
> 
> could be imminent
> 
> ...


 I know the Bible from front to back and back to front. Went to a Catholic convent school.


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

Shero said:


> 1. Have you ever killed a chicken? Then you have killed. Jesus never killed an animal.
> 
> 2. Have you never called God's name in vain?
> 
> ...


1. No
the butcher does a better job

2. Never in vain, always great results

3. I'm retired

4. Seriously....I found it quite a delight to enjoy the holiness of a sabbath
I've worked seven days a week most all my life
Got more done in six than seven when taking one for rest

Enjoy yer trip, kid


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## Gary O' (Feb 11, 2022)

The word 'abomination' has shown up

Heh, that one is a doozy
It gets tossed around a lot by bible thumpers

Thing is, when one takes their eyes off God, everything we think and do is an abomination


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## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Shero said:


> why do Christians stil adhere to the Ten Commandments if they discard the Old Testament ( as said by Lara).


I never said "I discard the Old Testament". I said the Mosaic Laws...(about 600 of them regarding what we should wear and what we should eat etc. were given to the Israelites for a specific reason)...are not meant for us today.

When Jesus came, the Mosaic Laws were not necessary because we are now under the Law of Christ which is basically Love God and Love your Neighbor. If we do these 2 things we are following the the Ten Commandments. Here's clarity of this in a 2 minute video...


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## Lavinia (Feb 12, 2022)

Another point I would like to make.....in the Greek pantheon of gods, their leader was named Jupiter, or Jove. To my ear, the name 'Jove' is very similar to Jehovah.
There are many questions I need answering....where did the idea of animal sacrifice come from, what purpose does it serve? I know that the Jews believed that sins could be transferred to an animal, and if the animal was then killed, the sins were eradicated. This is where the idea of Jesus being the sacrificial lamb comes from.


fancicoffee13 said:


> True, we are to discern between good and bad teachings.  Even among beliefs.  What is real and what is of mankind.  Your eternal home after life will depend on it.


You make it sound as though we can pick and choose...discard the bits that don't suit us. Is any religion supposed to be like that?


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## Shero (Feb 12, 2022)

Gary O' said:


> 1. No
> the butcher does a better job
> 
> 2. Never in vain, always great results
> ...



Thanks Santa, I will


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## Judycat (Feb 12, 2022)

You people do realize YHWH is my name and I am a jealous god? I don't change.  I am the one holding everything together. I turn away and you are dust particles. Just letting you know. I AM still here.. Don't use it in vain by the way. My name I mean. Gah!  You people, you  have to have every...little...detail explained to you.
---Sincerely,
    YHWH


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## Shero (Feb 12, 2022)

.
Jesus’ name in Hebrew was “Yeshua”. The letter “J” did not exist at the time of Jesus. So his name is Yeshua. The name Jesus, is only about 500 years old!

Jesus’ purpose was to educate the Jews. He confirmed the Jewish law forbidding idolatry and blasphemy. The Code of Jewish Law clearly states that a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of the father’s lineage.

To Christians, Jesus was the Messiah – this is a Jewish concept ! The coming of a Messiah had been foretold in Jewish scripture for centuries. Long before the birth of Christianity.

Messiah does not mean son of God. the word simply means "anointed one". Christ is not the last name of Jesus …it simply means “anointed one.”
The Jews say “Messiah” … the Christians say “Christ”. They mean the same thing, but the Jews got theirs in first!

Jesus was born, lived, died, taught as a Jew. He taught the Mosaic Laws. Judaism and Christianity are so intertwined, you cannot separate the Old Testament from the New Testament. You cannot cherry pick!! You have to take the rough with the smooth! 
Islam copied from Judaism and Christianity. These three religions are very similar.

Yeshua (Jesus)  was Jewish until the day he died. He followed all the Jewish customs. He taught Jewish law.

The Last Supper was indeed a Jewish Passover Seder.

So if Jesus is God (according to Christians), then a lot of evidence points to the fact that God is Jewish???

I leave this with you….off to get some sleep, taking up my duties as First Mate early tomorrow.

Shalom!
.


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## Paco Dennis (Feb 12, 2022)

Lara said:


> I never said "I discard the Old Testament". I said the Mosaic Laws...(of which there are more than 600 about what we should wear and what we should eat etc. and given to the Israelites for a specific reason)...are not meant for us today.
> 
> When Jesus came, the Mosaic Laws were not necessary because we are now under the Law of Christ which is basically Love God and Love your Neighbor. If we do these 2 things we are following the the Ten Commandments. Here's clarity of this in a 2 minute video...


Christians who take the Bible literally use this as their proof that draconian laws are still kept...

Matthew 5:17-20

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 *Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.* 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


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## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

See more @ Dark Matter 2525 Channel on YouTube


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## JaniceM (Feb 12, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think the fact that I am gay is an abomination in any way.  How would you feel if I called you an abomination to God?  What a disgusting and non-Christian thing to say.
> 
> I did not choose to be this way, and God doesn't make mistakes.  I don't think my decisions were "bad and senseless".  I'm glad your religion is something that gives you satisfaction and hope, but don't try to denigrate my lifestyle.  I have a 30-year relationship, which is more than I can say for many "Christians", and I treat others with respect.  I grew up with enough criticism of my lifestyle.  I don't need yours.


Bear in mind, though, that the types of remarks you referred to commonly come from today's "Christians" who claim to know everything about the Old Testament.  
Logically, the initial goal of 'replenishing the earth,' which was the sole reason for the mentions against homosexuality, is not an issue in the modern era.  
The GOD I believe in loves you-  glad yours does, too, or perhaps it's the same one.


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## StarSong (Feb 12, 2022)

I soured on organized religion when I realized that I'd never come across any religion, church, or family of faith that truly believed (nevermind  practiced) what they preached.  Let's not forget that the KKK proclaims itself to be Christian.  

Lots of uplifting chatter on Sunday, lots of ugliness through the week. Plenty of pulpit preaching about sharing with the poor while begging, manipulating and guilting people barely scraping to reach ever-deeper into their wallets. Repeatedly quoting passages about loving one's neighbor but quickly separating off into the same gossipy cliques during coffee fellowship. Pastors included.  

There's plenty of historical information showing Christmas, Easter and other Christian holidays are rooted in old pagan religions, rites and celebrations. Can't comment on other modern world religions.

Like others here, I believe in a Creator, but am not sure about anything beyond that. I sure don't believe for a moment that it tunes into our every thought (or deed), or is ready to pounce and eternally damn those it deems unworthy whatever comes next.

I believe whatever comes after death comes for us all, whether that's nothing at all or some sort of grand communion. I lean toward the latter but recognize that it may be wishful thinking.


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## wcwbf (Feb 12, 2022)

the idea that some power... much more powerful for us to understand... set all this in motion works for me.  "religion" is pure faith... something, that if you think you can PROVE it... you're doing it wrong.  if you believe something and have faith that it's the truth... that's religion, imo.  

does a religion have some form of "golden rule" and "10 commandments" (actual number doesn't matter)?  is it WRONG to kill, steal, lie, etc?  those are pretty universal tenents.

not sure about heaven, but think the NOW is not the end.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Lavinia said:


> Another point I would like to make.....in the Greek pantheon of gods, their leader was named Jupiter, or Jove. To my ear, the name 'Jove' is very similar to Jehovah.
> There are many questions I need answering....where did the idea of animal sacrifice come from, what purpose does it serve? I know that the Jews believed that sins could be transferred to an animal, and if the animal was then killed, the sins were eradicated. This is where the idea of Jesus being the sacrificial lamb comes from.
> 
> You make it sound as though we can pick and choose...discard the bits that don't suit us. Is any religion supposed to be like that?


Everyone has the ability to choose anything, beliefs, jobs, partners, etc.  But choosing what to believe in is very important.  And yes, saying no to some things is our choice as well.  I don't know about other religions, but Christianity is saying no to other gods and yes to God.  Being faithful and obedient, knowing about forgiveness.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think the fact that I am gay is an abomination in any way.  How would you feel if I called you an abomination to God?  What a disgusting and non-Christian thing to say.
> 
> I did not choose to be this way, and God doesn't make mistakes.  I don't think my decisions were "bad and senseless".  I'm glad your religion is something that gives you satisfaction and hope, but don't try to denigrate my lifestyle.  I have a 30-year relationship, which is more than I can say for many "Christians", and I treat others with respect.  I grew up with enough criticism of my lifestyle.  I don't need yours.


I was just answering a question, you are not an abomination by any means.  Sorry I mislead you.


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## Pepper (Feb 12, 2022)

It's really tough being self-aware.  We have to make up stuff to assuage our curiosities.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Serenity4321 said:


> I can not accept anything as being unforgivable.. God is all forgiving and no matter how long it takes I believe we get chance after chance to get it right. I am not too enthusiastic about reincarnation but it kind of does make sense and seems 'fair' but who knows....


I know it is hard to conceive some things.  And I do like second chances whenever I can get one.  But, reincarnation, that is far fetched and (I think) a figment of man's imagination.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> Wow that's just great.  What  sort of god creates people "bad" and then insists that they worship 'him' so that they get a ticket to heaven?
> That's like running a protection racket.   Not only does this god create 'bad' people but just to rub it in, some are born with terrible illnesses or deformities.  If there was a god (which I don't believe there is)  the one you describe is not the sort I'd want to know.
> 
> So answer to the original question   ...  NO and NO.


No matter what deformities or diseases people get, they are ALL beautiful and in God's eyes a creation of wonder and beauty.  And as far as good and bad people, they all have a choice to make, to love God and do right or not.  And in no way are you to believe in God to "get a ticket to heaven"!  You chose to believe in God and accept His son as your Savior because He first loved you.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> I believe, but still sin.


Who doesn't?


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Gardenlover said:


> I've opened the door, but sin is still within me. Seems hypocritical to me.


Sin and the temptation to sin will never leave.  Sorry.  Forgiveness is His gift.


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## Mizmo (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I know it is hard to conceive some things.  And I do like second chances whenever I can get one.  But, reincarnation, that is far fetched and (I think) a figment of man's imagination.


about reincarnation.....a figment ?

quote...
According to the advocates of this belief, Elijah is the witness of the first coming of Christ, Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist and *Enoch* is the witness of the second coming, that is to say Enoch would return as a higher reincarnation (controlled reincarnation) before the second coming of Christ

....so according to the scribes it is entirely possible


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 12, 2022)

No more far fetched than virgin birth, or an old man in the sky who allows, nay, demands the murder of his own son. Pick your poison. In the end if it gets you through the day, good for you. Just don't try to cram it down others throats. Seems I recall "judge not, lest ye be judged". That seems to be one so called Christians easily lay aside. Mike



fancicoffee13 said:


> I know it is hard to conceive some things. And I do like second chances whenever I can get one. But, reincarnation, that is far fetched and (I think) a figment of man's imagination.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> about reincarnation.....a figment ?
> 
> quote...
> According to the advocates of this belief, Elijah is the witness of the first coming of Christ, Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist and *Enoch* is the witness of the second coming, that is to say Enoch would return as a higher reincarnation (controlled reincarnation) before the second coming of Christ
> ...


Where is that found in what Bible?


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> about reincarnation.....a figment ?
> 
> quote...
> According to the advocates of this belief, Elijah is the witness of the first coming of Christ, Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist and *Enoch* is the witness of the second coming, that is to say Enoch would return as a higher reincarnation (controlled reincarnation) before the second coming of Christ
> ...


Reincarnation is not found in the Bible.


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## Mizmo (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Where is that found in what Bible?





fancicoffee13 said:


> Where is that found in what Bible?


dunno....googled it


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Mizmo said:


> dunno....googled it


Well google shouldn't be the place you find answers to Biblical questions.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Where is that found in what Bible?


Elijah and John the Baptist had the same function but not the same being/person. Plus, Elijah did not die, he was taken to heaven like Enoch. 2 Kings 2:11;  Hebrews 11:5.


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> No matter what deformities or diseases people get, they are ALL beautiful and in God's eyes a creation of wonder and beauty.  And as far as good and bad people, they all have a choice to make, to love God and do right or not.  And in no way are you to believe in God to "get a ticket to heaven"!  You chose to believe in God and accept His son as your Savior because He first loved you.


We're not talking about God's eyes.  What about the misery that person suffers?  What about the pain and anguish of the parents?   Is that OK because the person is beautiful in God's eyes?   Doesn't God care about all those who are affected?  Doesn't sound like it.

I do not believe in a God and although I believe that there was a wandering preacher that we know as Jesus, he could not have been the son of a non existent god.


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## Mizmo (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Well google shouldn't be the place you find answers to Biblical questions.


 Yes Ma'am


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> We're not talking about God's eyes.  What about the misery that person suffers?  What about the pain and anguish of the parents?   Is that OK because the person is beautiful in God's eyes?   Doesn't God care about all those who are affected?  Doesn't sound like it.
> 
> I do not believe in a God and although I believe that there was a wandering preacher that we know as Jesus, he could not have been the son of a non existent god.


I know what you're talking about.  All the pain and suffering, God does care.  Yes, He really cares.  Not everyone is made perfect with no disabilities.  Everyone has some disability of some sort.  Some worse than others.  I don't know why.  But, I keep on praying, and believing for the healing.  And there are times when prayers aren't answered the way I want.  Believe me, that is troubling.  But, I keep on believing, not giving up.


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## wcwbf (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> There are a lot of different religions, and denominations out there.  But only one God and His Word.


so which God is THE God?


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

wcwbf said:


> so which God is THE God?


Elohim and YHWH are names for God.


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## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Elohim and YHWH are names for God.


So are Zeus, Poseidon and Allah


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> So are Zeus, Poseidon and Allah


Those names you gave are not the name of God, the one I am referring to.


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## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Those names you gave are not the name of God, the one I am referring to.


But they are names for gods that other people believe in, are they not?
Is the one you refer to THE god as asked by a previous poster?
And if so, what make your god more special than any others?


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> But they are names for gods that other people believe in, are they not?
> Is the one you refer to THE god as asked by a previous poster?
> And if so, what make your god more special than any others?Y


Yes of course, they are names of other gods people believe in and the one I believe in is those two names.  Period.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Yes of course, they are names of other gods people believe in and the one I believe in is those two names.  Period.


What makes my God more special, because He is the one I choose to believe in.


----------



## Geezer Garage (Feb 12, 2022)




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## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Capt Lightning said:


> ....What about the misery that person suffers?...Doesn't God care about all those who are affected?  Doesn't sound like it.


*I wish I had a nickel for every time I've tried to answer this question.*​There are over 200 reason given in the Bible for why good people suffer and it's never enough to satisfy the inquisitive believer and non-believer because there is no single answer. Every answer comes with an explanation and each point raises further questions. It's complicated because ...the way God works is more complicated than we can ever comprehend. But I find the more I study it the more I begin to understand.​Here are just a handful...

*1.* Suffering is the result of mankind’s sin and rebellion against God (Genesis 3).

*2.* Some suffer from their own natural consequences

*3.* People sometimes suffer from the wrong choices of other human beings, even though God uses the resulting suffering for good (Genesis 50:20).

*4.* Suffering brings faithful believers into deeper understanding and relationship with Him (Job).

*5.* Suffering teaches us empathy for others so we can reach out and help them better

*6.* Believers suffer as a testament of faith to others (Hebrews 11).

*7.* God allows people to suffer so they will turn to Him in repentance and not perish for eternity (Luke 13:1-4).

*8.* Christians suffer so they can be conformed more closely to the character of Christ (Romans 8:28-30, James 1:2-4).

*9.* Believers suffer so they can know Christ more fully as they lean on Him and trust him (Philippians 3:10).

*10.* To prepare followers of Christ for the glory of Heaven (2 Corinthians 4:17).


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## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)




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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


>


Chris, you can come at me with just all the quotes and arguments you want.  I get it.


----------



## Knight (Feb 12, 2022)

palides2021 said:


> I am an Orthodox Christian and-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The story goes God made heaven & earth.  So given that as a belief the reality is God would have to be outside of heaven & earth.
My logic
If I were to make a box I couldn't be inside of the box to make it. The box would already exist.

What puzzles me most is why 2 centuries ago all that is supposed to be took place & the "sacrifice"  failed miserably. Yet some cling to a belief that a omnipotent super being billions of years old has a plan for their lives.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Knight said:


> The story goes God made heaven & earth.  So given that as a belief the reality is God would have to be outside of heaven & earth.
> My logic
> If I were to make a box I couldn't be inside of the box to make it. The box would already exist.


But, God doesn't stay outside/above the earth and all His creation.


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## Knight (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> But, God doesn't stay outside/above the earth and all His creation.


Where does he stay if he doesn't come down from heaven?  Heaven being our universe


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Knight said:


> Where does he stay if he doesn't come down from heaven?  Heaven being our universe


God also says He will never leave us nor forsake us in Deut. 31:6.  So, He must be right here amongst us.


----------



## Knight (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> God also says He will never leave us nor forsake us in Deut. 31:6.  So, He must be right here amongst us.


So it's possible Chis P Bacon is a God & he is posting here to test people. Also possible others questioning the bible might be angels doing testing while Chris P Bacon is busy devising plans for those yet to be born.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 12, 2022)

Knight said:


> So it's possible Chis P Bacon is a God & he is posting here to test people.


Not


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Not


Don't be so sure. I move in mysterious ways, my wonders to perform.


----------



## Knight (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Not


How can you be sure. You did post

 He will never leave us nor forsake us in Deut. 31:6. So, He must be right here amongst us.


----------



## Geezer Garage (Feb 12, 2022)

I think maybe we should stop picking on Fannie. I think we've made are point, and this discourse has accomplished as much as it can, and will end up like the proverbial dog chasing it's tail. I think this is why most bars, and many internet sites ban conversation about religion, and politics. Not saying it wasn't fun, but think I'm moving on to new frontiers, or at least posts. Cheers, Mike


----------



## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> I think maybe we should stop picking on Fannie. I think we've made are point, and this discourse has accomplished as much as it can, and will end up like the proverbial dog chasing it's tail. I think this is why most bars, and many internet sites ban conversation about religion, and politics. Not saying it wasn't fun, but think I'm moving on to new frontiers, or at least posts. Cheers, Mike


Not so fast @Geezer Garage...


----------



## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


>


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? 
Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? 
Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? 
Then whence cometh evil? 
Is he neither able nor willing? 
Then why call him God?  
~Epicurus

*Sorry Epicurus, you just don't get it*
God is willing to prevent evil.
and does sometimes because he is omnipotent.
God is able and willing,
but sometimes wants to use evil for good
(e.g. to teach us lessons so we can grow).
He is therefore our loving Father
(not malevolent).
Evil comes from Satan.
Our Father uses Satan when he damn well pleases 
Therefore He is God.
~Lara


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

Lara said:


> *Sorry Epicurus, you just don't get it*
> God is willing to prevent evil.
> and does sometimes because he is omnipotent.
> God is able and willing,
> ...


You don't have to agree with me, I can't force you to be right.


----------



## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Just disagreeing with Epicurus, not you Chris, just for fun because he's a famous Greek Philosopher and I'm not.
Took it as a challenge to play off his free-style "Poem". It was suppose to be light and funny...but with truth based on faith


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 12, 2022)

Lara said:


> Just disagreeing with Epicurus, not you Chris, just for fun because he's a famous Greek Philosopher and I'm not.
> Took it as a challenge to play off his free-style "Poem". It was suppose to be light and funny...but with truth based on faith


Well, he wasn't a Christian but at least his words are understandable and to the point. I kind of like that style.


----------



## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

I like his style too.


----------



## Lara (Feb 12, 2022)

Knight said:


> The story goes God made heaven & earth.  So given that as a belief the reality is God would have to be outside of heaven & earth. My logic
> If I were to make a box I couldn't be inside of the box to make it. The box would already exist.
> What puzzles me most is why 2 centuries ago all that is supposed to be took place & the "sacrifice"  failed miserably. Yet some cling to a belief that a omnipotent super being billions of years old has a plan for their lives.


According to my faith, God is everywhere. He has no limits. 
No beginning. 
No end. 
No box. 
No borders. 
He's God. 
For Eternity.
What "sacrifice" did you mean when you said "the sacrifice failed miserably"?


----------



## Leann (Feb 12, 2022)

I believe in God. Period.


----------



## Geezer Garage (Feb 12, 2022)

You May not be done with me, but I'm done with this conversation. Been down this road innumerable times,and it's always the same old story. "There are none so blind as those who cannot see" works on both sides of the isle. You deal with your God as you please, and I will deal with mine. Anything more is just pride, and vanity, both sins as I recall. Nuff said. Mike



Lara said:


> Not so fast @Geezer Garage...


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 12, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Sorry to disagree with you, but I don't think the fact that I am gay is an abomination in any way.  How would you feel if I called you an abomination to God?  What a disgusting and non-Christian thing to say.
> 
> I did not choose to be this way, and God doesn't make mistakes.  I don't think my decisions were "bad and senseless".  I'm glad your religion is something that gives you satisfaction and hope, but don't try to denigrate my lifestyle.  I have a 30-year relationship, which is more than I can say for many "Christians", and I treat others with respect.  I grew up with enough criticism of my lifestyle.  I don't need yours.


"God does not make junk" is what I heard while on a Marriage Encounter weekend. Those words dived deep down into my soul and have remained there ever since. They have helped me to have patience with the most vexxing of my students and to see the value of every human, no matter how broken. 

Love is love, and God asks us to be loving. To deny anyone the right to love and be loved is (IMO) quite contrary to the Word of God we profess, and seek to obey.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 12, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Well, he wasn't a Christian but at least his words are understandable and to the point. I kind of like that style.


The Epicurean paradox that you presented was included in the only unit of theology I studied after completing my science degree. We were presented with three attempts to resolve the paradox but none of them made any sense to me and in the end my head was spinning.

Then a thought popped into my head as if from God himself (herself?).

It said, wrong question. The right question to consider is, "Who is my neighbour?"

For those who don't know, that question was asked of Jesus by a student of the Law and in answering it Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan, a parable that contains both simple and deeper meanings.

I no longer bother straining my brain with spiritual paradoxes. It only gets in the way of responding to people I come in contact with who are bruised by life, and who need my compassion and help, whatever help I am able to offer. The one thing they do not need is my condemnation.


----------



## wcwbf (Feb 12, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> Elohim and YHWH are names for God.


i meant christian god?  muslim god?  buddhist?


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> ...I think we've made are point, and this discourse has accomplished as much as it can, and will end up like the proverbial dog chasing it's tail. I think this is why most bars, and many internet sites ban conversation about religion, and politics. Not saying it wasn't fun, but think I'm moving on to new frontiers, or at least posts.





Lara said:


> Not so fast





Geezer Garage said:


> You May not be done with me, but I'm done with this conversation. Been down this road innumerable times, and it's always the same old story. "There are none so blind as those who cannot see" works on both sides of the isle. You deal with your God as you please, and I will deal with mine. Anything more is just pride, and vanity, both sins as I recall. Nuff said. Mike



My comment, "not so fast" wasn't about being done with you. It was about the conversation being done.
And I posted a smilie face indicating I said it light heartedly. No harm, no fowl.  *handshake*?

I guess I'll ignore that you said, "You deal with your God as you please, I'll deal with mine, anything more is prideful, vain and a sin".

C'mon. Let's lighten up...okay?


----------



## Capt Lightning (Feb 13, 2022)

I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden.  I haven't seen them, but I believe they exist, after all they couldn't live at the bottom of my garden if they didn't.  As far as I can tell, they've always been there, and probably always will be as long as I believe in them. If things go well, I thank them, and if bad things happen, I wonder what I've done to upset them.

Some people might say  "Yer bum's oot the windy"  (you're talking nonsense),  but they don't know what I know.   Anyway, that's what I believe and now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to feed the unicorn.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

R’amen!


----------



## Della (Feb 13, 2022)

To answer the OP:  Yes, I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God.

* I believe: (JMHO)*
The Old Testament gives us the beginnings of our understanding of God and his relationship with man. There are two creation stories in Genesis, probably taken from oral legends of the time and I think they are astonishing in how close they are to what we know of evolution today, particularly if you understand "day" to mean era,

God chose to reveal himself to the Jewish people and through them things like the Ten Commandments were given to us to help us learn how to live as decent people who don't steal or murder. He also gave over 600 minor laws that were specific to the time and climate (don't eat pork, don't spill your seed on the ground, etc). I don't think we need to worry about them too much, now that we have refrigeration and a well populated earth.

Much of The Old Testament is a history of the early Jewish people, their wars, and Kings and the words of wisdom of the Jewish prophets.

I believe:
The new Testament is about Jesus and his teachings. Some of his followers, like Matthew, were educated and could write down his sermons.  My Bible has Jesus' words in red.  He was Jewish himself and he did not come to change the law as given to them.  He was well educated and knew the Law well enough to be discussing it with the learned men in the temple when he was just twelve years old.

His sermons did not attempt to change the law, but to remind us that the laws were meant to teach us how to treat each other. He extended the laws -- for example, don't just not murder your neighbor, don't even be angry at him, don't just be faithful to your wife, don't lust after other women.

He always emphasized that the greatest virtue was to love each other as much as we loved ourselves. That's why I believe he would love gay people as much as anyone else.

After Jesus was crucified for going against the establishment, those who followed him and believed they had talked to him after he rose from the dead, began saying Jesus was the Christ, and so they become know as Christians.  I believe that, so I'm a Christian.  I don't have to follow every word of the Bible or be perfect all the time to be a Christian, I just have to believe in him.

All the above are just my opinions I don't try to force them on anyone.

I go to a liberal church that welcomes everyone.  We are not perfect people.  Yes we listen to sermons on Sunday and then do wrong on Monday. Rinse and repeat. We're just trying to get better, please quit judging us as we try not to judge you.

I'm always shocked at the amount of hatred for Christians and the examples used of Christians who take money from poor people or hate gays all seem to come from televangelists and movies. They're about as typical of real Christians as Hollywood Housewives are of the rest of us. My church gives money to the poor every week. I would invite those of you who think Christians are all like Dana Carvey's church-lady to actually go to a mainstream church a few times before making your sweeping judgments.



Shero said:


> “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. ( Lucius Annaeus Seneca).”


I think I would rather follow Jesus and his message of love for all people, than Lucius Annaeus Seneca and his classist values.


----------



## Judycat (Feb 13, 2022)

Love the way my own people talk about me like I'm not here. 
Yours truly,
YHWH is my name ya dumb...nevermind


----------



## JaniceM (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> My comment, "not so fast" wasn't about being done with you. It was about the conversation being done.
> And I posted a smilie face indicating I said it light heartedly. No harm, *no fowl*.  *handshake*?
> 
> I guess I'll ignore that you said, "You deal with your God as you please, I'll deal with mine, anything more is prideful, vain and a sin".
> ...


Huh?  How did chickens get into the conversation?  

j/k, couldn't resist!!


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)




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## Lavinia (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> According to my faith, God is everywhere. He has no limits.
> No beginning.
> No end.
> No box.
> ...


Your definition means that although we think of 'God' as a person, in fact it is not a living entity.


----------



## Della (Feb 13, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Don't be so sure. I move in mysterious ways, my wonders to perform.


Well now you're getting there.  

I don't expect to understand God anymore than my dog understands me.  Right now she must be wondering how a loving mommy could hand her over to the vet to have all her teeth pulled.  I could never explain to her that this will give her better health and longer life and less pain in the long run, because her little brain would never comprehend all that.  But she has forgiven me and trusts that I love her.  That's me with my little brain and God.

My idea of God is not quite as hands-on as Fancicoffee's.  I think He made earth and put us on it and then backed off to allow us to live here in free-will.  So if bad things happen He will help us deal with it through giving us comfort and peace of mind, but he's not going to reach out like a big kid with his Play-Family-Village and catch our car when we drive off the cliff.

It may seem very harsh, but our time here is tiny compared with eternity.


----------



## Alligatorob (Feb 13, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I was brought up going to church and when I got older I decided to do my own investigating. I have found that I love basing my life on Scripture of the Bible and it is my "stronghold" when hard times come. I still love starting each day praying the Lord's prayer.





Lara said:


> According to my faith, God is everywhere. He has no limits.
> No beginning.
> No end.
> No box.
> ...





Leann said:


> I believe in God. Period.


I actually envy you, Fanci, Lara, Leann, and others here who have expressed similar absolute belief.

I just don't see any evidence for or reason to believe.  Agnostic by intellect and Christian by culture I guess..


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I actually envy you, Fanci, Lara, Leann, and others here who have expressed similar absolute belief.
> I just don't see any evidence for or reason to believe.  Agnostic by intellect and Christian by culture I guess..


That was smooth Alligatorob  Buzzing in with flattery and leaving a sting in the end lol
I'm opting for the Intelligent Designer over the "agnostic intellect" both have their touch of faith involved


----------



## Knight (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> According to my faith, God is everywhere. He has no limits.
> No beginning.
> No end.
> No box.
> ...


The sacrifice failing miserably would be the crucifixion.  I don't know if you noticed since then mankind hasn't been very kind to each other, animals & the planet.  Not an  entire failure.  If we are to believe the bible  we could guess at least it was enough to stop God from flooding the earth again killing everyone except whoever was next in line  to build a boat.  Kinda scary when you realize Jeff Bezos just built a huge yacht.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> leaving a sting in the end lol


No sting meant, LOL


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> The sacrifice failing miserably would be the crucifixion. I don't know if you noticed since then mankind hasn't been very kind to each other, animals & the planet.


There has *always* been savagery by humans...before and after the crucifixion.


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## Pepper (Feb 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> The sacrifice failing miserably would be the crucifixion.  I don't know if you noticed since then mankind hasn't been very kind to each other, animals & the planet.  Not an  entire failure.  If we are to believe the bible  we could guess* at least it was enough to stop God from flooding the earth again killing everyone except whoever was next in line  to build a boat. * Kinda scary when you realize Jeff Bezos just built a huge yacht.


Genesis 9:11 ​I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be eliminated by the waters of a flood, nor shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.​
He promised NOT to, Knight.


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## Knight (Feb 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Genesis 9:11 ​I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be eliminated by the waters of a flood, nor shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.​He promised NOT to, Knight.


 So why not flood again if mankind didn't change from what must have displeased him?


----------



## Pepper (Feb 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> So why not flood again if mankind didn't change from what must have displeased him?


Gosh, Knight, just accept the gift and stop questioning it!     LOL


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Knight said:


> The sacrifice failing miserably would be the crucifixion.  I don't know if you noticed since then mankind hasn't been very kind to each other, animals & the planet.


The purpose of the sacrifice of the Crucifixion was not to eliminate sin. The purpose was to forgive sin for the asking and believing.
He's watching everybody and everything. Good choices and bad choices all matter.

Without sin and choices, how would God know if we are for Him or against Him?

It's not blind faith.
He wants us to "see" with our eyes as we look around us at creation, feel within our souls as it will continue forever after physical death, our hearts as we give and receive love, and our minds as we study His Word. If he just hands everything to us with no part of our own then how does love for Him manifest? He's a loving Father. We are His children. He wants obedience just like an earthly father and child.


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## Knight (Feb 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Gosh, Knight, just accept the gift and stop questioning it!     LOL


Your right if it didn't happen global warming pretty much assures it won't happen I should just look at it as a gift.  Although I'm not happy with the global warming thing but then there is a plan right?


----------



## Knight (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> Without sin and choices, how would God know if we are for Him or against Him?


Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God.”

Seems the bible has an answer for that.   Nothing impossible IMO means knowing is a given so sin & choices don't enter into how to decide.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Feb 13, 2022)

Why did the originators of Christianity claim no one doubt or question the word of the bible? If the bible is as it says it is why restrict scrutiny or opposition.


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Good point, sorta'....but here's the thing, God the Father knows which children will choose to love Him and which will turn their backs on Him. But He wants the scenario played out for the sake of his children to experience the blessings that come with obedience, faith, an love (which btw may not be realized until after entering into eternal life on the "other side") and to have this time on earth to be "polished" and ready to enter the Kingdom of God aka heaven.


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## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> Why did the originators of Christianity claim no one doubt or question the word of the bible? If the bible is as it says it is why restrict scrutiny or opposition.


They didn't "claim no one doubt or question the Bible"...not the Bible that I use. The Bible says "Study thyself to be approved of God". God didn't give us all the answers. He encourages us to spend time studying His Word and finding the answers and praying for the scriptures to reveal the truth to each of us individually. It's all a part of the relationship He wants with us through Jesus.


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## David777 (Feb 13, 2022)

Mr. Ed said:


> Why did the originators of Christianity claim no one doubt or question the word of the bible? If the bible is as it says it is why restrict scrutiny or opposition.


In the first century there was no New Testament, just *ORAL TRADITION *that gradually became written down over decades and then sorted out as to what to include over following 2 centuries. Over centuries beyond Soloman's reign, the Jew Levite priest sect regularly added to, removed sections, and changed the Old Testament. Inerrancy developed a millennia later after the Reformation, especially in the 19th century. Unless their flock believed they were the elite inspired, keepers of their faith, who would believe them? Before then, very few people had access to a Bible that was hand written and kept in churches except for priests that preached in Latin most of their flock did not understand. When printing developed in the 16th century, it became forbidden to have those books because political authorities feared losing power through the church. 

The whole narrative of favorites of theological philosophers,* omniscience, omnipotence, *and* omnipresence,* developed during the Middle Ages and depended on vague verses in the OT like "The Almighty" that does not narrowly logically imply that. The OT has many stories that shows God was not any of the three OOO's. Especially within Protestant denominations, if God could do anything, that let them invent all manner of supposed inspired dogma that is not clearly in the Bible but in this science, technology, WWW era is coming back to crumble their house of cards.  With the WWW opening all this up to every person, it is now all exposed for those that bother to read scholarly research that was only available in limited books only universities tended to have.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Feb 13, 2022)

I don't think of God the way I used to. I prefer to think of God not in human form but all inclusive what is, was and will be. Everyone on this forum exist as the all and all, independent yet as one. For every action there is a reaction and although as individuals may not recognize or perceive life differently, the effect of change alters everything.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Man oh man but life is hard enough! Atheist literature is much easier to understand and comprehend.
With all of the people who have studied the bible, over all the years they've studied it too, if they still
can't understand or agree that it means this or that, it seems pretty hopeless that a mortal, such as I,
stands a chance to make sense of it. That's why I feel as I do about religion. There's a lot to be said for
conciseness.


----------



## fancicoffee13 (Feb 13, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I actually envy you, Fanci, Lara, Leann, and others here who have expressed similar absolute belief.
> 
> I just don't see any evidence for or reason to believe.  Agnostic by intellect and Christian by culture I guess..


If you could get a clear view of Hell and eternity in it, then you would get it.  But, it is choosing by faith to believe.  Not knowing any of the absolutes to go on.  Clearly by faith.  But, the decision is yours alone.  And you will experience the results of your decision for all eternity.


----------



## David777 (Feb 13, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> I actually envy you, Fanci, Lara, Leann, and others here who have expressed similar absolute belief.
> 
> I just don't see any evidence for or reason to believe.  Agnostic by intellect and Christian by culture I guess..



I found enough reason to believe through faith despite significant uncertainties, but primarily not through the lens of religious dogma but rather science while looking at what has been recorded in the Bible as useful visions of science ignorant humans. Those many that are content with the understanding when their organic body dies, they are no more eternally, have run their life's course, and do not value the possibility of an eternal life, won't have an interest in Christianity or belief in a god, so may continue to live in this dog eat dog world as moral or immorally as they choose to.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (Feb 13, 2022)

It's all mumbo jumbo. The Bible was written by man. Lots of things in the Bible are contradictory. Some of the worse people swear that they are good Christians. Some of the worse atrocities have been committed by religious believers.


----------



## Mitch86 (Feb 13, 2022)

I used to be a born again Christian. I read the bible daily. I attended Church every Sunday. Today I never go to Church and never read the bible.  I think it's all bunk.  I believe our creators were a sperm cell and an egg cell fusing.  I believe at death we simply cease to exist and all pain and suffering also cease to exist.  I am sure "Father" Death ends all pain and suffering since our personalities have totally DISAPPEARED.


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Atheist literature is much easier to understand and comprehend.


Since when does the easy way out get you where you want to be?


----------



## RFW (Feb 13, 2022)

Mitch86 said:


> I used to be a born again Christian. I read the bible daily. I attended Church every Sunday. Today I never go to Church and never read the bible.  I think it's all bunk.  I believe our creators were a sperm cell and an egg cell fusing.  I believe at death we simply cease to exist and all pain and suffering also cease to exist.  I am sure "Father" Death ends all pain and suffering since our personalities have totally DISAPPEARED.


What made you change your mind?
Asking as a so called non believer. I do have a belief though.


----------



## David777 (Feb 13, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> It's all mumbo jumbo. The Bible was written by man. Lots of things in the Bible are contradictory. Some of the worse people swear that they are good Christians. Some of the worse atrocities have been committed by religious believers.


The shortcomings of men with powers over religion with agendas, is hardly a reason to dismiss the possibility of eternal life for those that value such unless one unwisely thinks those in control have been always spirit inspired.


----------



## Mitch86 (Feb 13, 2022)

RFW said:


> What made you change your mind?
> Asking as a so called non believer. I do have a belief though.


Deep thought made me see the truth using logic and common sense.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> Since when does the easy way out get you where you want to be?


It's not the "easy" way, per se, it just is factual and unambiguous. 
They say what they mean and there's no doubt about what's being said.
The bible is open to interpretation by the same people who get in the
10 items or less line at the grocery store with 25-30 items in their carts.
Not the ones I want to trust my "eternal" fate to really. Brevity has advantages.
I also don't recall any wars or witch hunts being begun in the name of atheism.
Have you read any atheistic writings, yourself? If not, you should. See the 
difference for yourself. As Billy Joel sang, "The sinners are much more fun!"


----------



## Pepper (Feb 13, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I also don't recall any wars or witch hunts being begun in the name of atheism.


What about those godless communists, i.e. soviet union, n. korea, chiner (sic), cuba, etc?


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What about those godless communists, i.e. soviet union, n. korea, chiner (sic), cuba, etc?


God bless those godless communists but their wars aren't declared in the name of or in the hope of, spreading atheism as a goal. I've never heard of them invoking any deity's to help in their efforts or claiming that they have any atheistic intentions about the wars they begin or participate in. Maybe that's why atheism and communism aren't spelled the same? Just a hunch.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> Since when does the easy way out get you where you want to be?


What do you mean by "where you want to be" ? Are you talking about a specific place?


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> As Billy Joel sang, "The sinners are much more fun!"


I'd rather have "much more fun" in Eternity than here in this micro moment of time.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Well, knock yourself out then and have a wonderful time. 
I never was much of a gambler. That old saying about a
bird in the hand ... Those old sayings have been around a 
while too, maybe because there's a morsel of truth in them.
That and they're not hard for a layperson to grasp the concept of.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Maybe there's a chance I can get there after all!


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> Since when does the easy way out get you where you want to be?





Murrmurr said:


> What do you mean by "where you want to be" ? Are you talking about a specific place?


I mean...wherever Chris or wherever YOU want to be. If you're asking me where I want to be it's an Eternity in God's Kingdom of perfect peace love joy kindness beauty, etc


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## Pink Biz (Feb 13, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Maybe there's a chance I can get there after all!


I had to dissect one of those critters in biology. I remain repulsed all these years later.


----------



## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> Lots of things in the Bible are contradictory. Some of the worse people swear that they are good Christians. Some of the worse atrocities have been committed by religious believers.


Christians admit they are sinners and in need of a Savior (Jesus)....BUT if they are "some of the worst people and swear they are good Christians" it doesn't mean they are.

This verse makes it clear "By their fruits ye shall know them" and "They will say Lord Lord and I know them not".

Christians on the other hand, while not perfect, are being polished and prepared over time for being counted worthy to enter God's Kingdom upon physical death. They will sin due to temptations, but not the same sin over and over again.
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## Alligatorob (Feb 13, 2022)

Lara said:


> I'd rather have "much more fun" in Eternity than here in this micro moment of time.


So would I and I can see the attraction to believing, I just don't see any evidence or real reason to believe.  Wish I did.


David777 said:


> Those many that are content with the understanding when their organic body dies, they are no more eternally, have run their life's course, and do not value the possibility of an eternal life, won't have an interest in Christianity or belief in a god, so may continue to live in this dog eat dog world as moral or immorally as they choose to.


It sure is an attractive thing to believe in, I just don't feel it though I guess.  I do try to live a "moral" life, it makes me feel better and hope that others do as well.  I believe are all better off treating each other well, God or no God.  One of the good things religion has contributed is to make more people live moral lives.  I like that, it just ain't me...  I am not atheist, don't think you can prove a negative, just a skeptical agnostic.


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## Lara (Feb 13, 2022)

Okay @Alligatorob , I've really enjoyed your input in this discussion and others, your fairness, and self control with all those who have different opinions. You've been polite, a gentleman, and that makes all discussions fun, heated or otherwise. No one has to "win" or have the last word or change anyone's mind. It's just fun to read what makes people think the way they do.


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## Chris P Bacon (Feb 13, 2022)

Even if you’re not _okay_, according to the “good book”, you’ll always be just fine in my book!


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## dseag2 (Feb 13, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> I was just answering a question, you are not an abomination by any means.  Sorry I mislead you.


I am usually a very forgiving person, but if you say being gay is an abomination you are referring to me and everyone like me.  If I say being a Christian woman is an abomination (which I would never do) I would be referring to you as well.  You did not mislead me in any way.  You responded in a very biased way.

Best to think about your response before you offend other members.  I have many Southern Baptist relatives, and I respect the fact that their faith and hope helps get them through their lives, but I would never disparage them due to their beliefs just because I don't believe the same way they do.  

Have a great life.


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 14, 2022)

1955 said:


> TAOISM:    Crap happens.
> HINDUISM: This crap happened before.
> CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say: crap happens.
> BUDDHISM: It is only an illusion of crap happening.
> ...



The "religion has been the biggest blight on mankind ever" line has been done to death.  Compared to fascism, communism, tribalism and nationalism, religion is just a minor annoyance.  

Many people have in fact died in religious wars.  But that was a long time ago.  The Thirty Years war (1618 to 1648) was the last time Western people engaged in large-scale religious warfare.  Those wars killed as many as 8 million people.  

Now look at deaths under Stalin (12 to 20 million), Hitler (noncombatant deaths estimated at 12 million or more) and Mao (at least 40 million) -- with some estimates much higher for all three.


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## Mr. Ed (Feb 14, 2022)

In truth I don't know anything regarding God, the Bible, Christianity or religion. What I learned growing up is not certain nor to my knowledge is or was certain for anyone else. I adopted Christianity because no other belief systems were available. 

About faith, something very significant happened to me around Easter 2005. I emptied myself, let go of self, in faith that I would be all right without my secrets and hidden agenda. I became one as one is all.
Since that time I live in the present moment of time, without worry of things that may never occur. I am spontaneous I don't project to the future because the present is all that matters. 

I attributed the life altering event to the saving grace of Jesus. However, I've always been curious to learn if similar occurrences happen in other types of belief systems? 

Is it unusual to live the moment 24/7? I do so naturally and without effort. I wonder how people think and feel in comparison to how I understand self and life?


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 14, 2022)

Good on you Mr Ed. That concept "be here now" has been around as long, and probably longer than religion in general. Regardless of which  path you take to get there, It is an excellent precept to live by, and adheres to one of my equally applied rules KISS (keep it simple stupid). We humans have a tendency to over complicate almost everything. Takes a bit of work to overcome that. Mike


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## Serenity4321 (Feb 14, 2022)

Perhaps we all have different religions, philosophies, etc for a specific reason. It is what we need for our own development. So all religions are ok


fancicoffee13 said:


> I know it is hard to conceive some things.  And I do like second chances whenever I can get one.  But, reincarnation, that is far fetched and (I think) a figment of man's imagination.


I have to say I am not in favor of reincarnation but don't your think it would be a_ fair _system? I do and that is the only reason I accept perhaps it is true...but again, no one knows for sure


fancicoffee13 said:


> Reincarnation is not found in the Bible.


Interpretations of Bible texts lead to the  theory that reincarnation is possibly a truth.  I do not think the Bible entirely is to  be taken literally but like all great works  was intended to_ speak_ to us individually. Of course that can be full of challenges and disagreements 
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## 1955 (Feb 14, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> The "religion has been the biggest blight on mankind ever" line has been done to death.


Yeah, were good at killing people for many reasons. The "religion has been the biggest blight on mankind ever" was scribbled on my basement wall when I moved here some 20 years ago & it was new to me. I never thought much about it all until I got older and a little wiser.

Hearing the quote made me think more about the historical persecution of scientist that hindered our progress.  Maybe if the people believed in the scientist instead of the church we could have avoided a lot of bloodshed.

So that's where I was coming from using that quote...


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## David777 (Feb 14, 2022)

It is true numbers wars in the last two millennia have been based on religion, powerful overlords manipulatively used religion within their populations as an excuse to attack and invade others.  Before the Christian religion rose up, there were myriad conflicts and wars across the world where civilizations developed whether religious based or not.  And before then in pre-civilization eras, some humans have forever fought for preferred land and resources especially where food and water was plentiful. 

That noted there have always been people that have lived peacefully including nations.  It is not religions usually to blame but rather those evil immoral leaders with willing armies and weapons that *take* what they want from those weaker, just like is the case with many higher animal species.  Even today in remote jungle areas there are human tribes that raid their neighbors, sometimes just to steal women.  And in civilized urban areas today, criminals without morals prey on the defenseless and weak wherever they can.  

Man alone as intelligent Earth creatures evolved via survival of the fittest, strongest, is quite capable of evil and murder, just like many of our primate ancestors.  That is really where "Original Sin" came from.  That noted, it need not be if a society exerts enough pressure and reason on those that might otherwise embrace the dark side.


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## Sunny (Feb 14, 2022)

fancicoffee13 said:


> If you could get a clear view of Hell and eternity in it, then you would get it.  But, it is choosing by faith to believe.  Not knowing any of the absolutes to go on.  Clearly by faith.  But, the decision is yours alone.  And you will experience the results of your decision for all eternity.


Or not.  What did you "experience" before you were born?  That's probably what we experience after we die.

All that nonsense about Hell was made up in ancient times to scare people into behaving themselves. I find it amazing that anyone in today's world actually believes it.

There is NO evidence that either Heaven or Hell exist, except that somebody made them up and wrote about them thousands of years ago. Using the word "faith" is a copout. You can say that anyone has to believe anything you tell them to believe, because that's where "faith" comes in.

I personally think that the human mind in its current state of development is not able to understand "what it's all about." We just don't know. Neither did the people who wrote the Bible. So why not just concentrate on taking measures to save the planet we are so busy destroying, keeping people fed, healthy, and alive, and trying to stop violence and hatred, right here on earth? That's the closest I come to religion.


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## Lara (Feb 14, 2022)

@dseag2  You quoted me in post #258 when I was responding to someone else's question...not you. Then you went on a rant about "homosexuality being an abomination and insane and getting 2 angry reactions"...that was NOT me who said that. I've never given anyone an angry reaction in the 7 years I've been here. I have nothing against homosexuals and if I was attending a church you would be welcome.

I'm a gentle self-controlled member here in good stand and have never been banned temporarily nor permanently. You will not be able to find any angry posts from me on my profile. My previous avatar was not stilettos That was a gross exaggeration and a low blow to my Christian character...exactly what you were intentionally going for. My avatar was clean and wholesome.

I have requested @Matrix remove your post #258. I ask that you refrain from ranting when you don't know what you are talking about. And you certainly don't know me. Please refrain from shaming members...especially when unwarranted. Thank you.
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## Irwin (Feb 14, 2022)

Sunny said:


> Or not.  What did you "experience" before you were born?  That's probably what we experience after we die.
> 
> All that nonsense about Hell was made up in ancient times to scare people into behaving themselves. I find it amazing that anyone in today's world actually believes it.
> 
> ...


I read that in the Old Testament, or Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, depending on your vernacular, the words heaven and hell were used to describe how people thought of you after you died. If people thought highly of you and missed you, you were in heaven. If people cursed you and were glad you were dead, you were in hell.

The New Testament changed the meaning of heaven and hell to make them actually places that you go after you die.


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## Geezer Garage (Feb 14, 2022)

What do you think Iraq, and Afghanistan were? Just because we don't think it's a religious war, doesn't mean that they don't. It is still going on all over the world. Mike



JimBob1952 said:


> Many people have in fact died in religious wars. But that was a long time ago.


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## fancicoffee13 (Feb 14, 2022)

Lara said:


> @dseag2  You quoted me in post #258 when I was responding to someone else's question...not you. Then you went on a rant about "homosexuality being an abomination and insane and getting 2 angry reactions"...that was NOT me who said that. I've never given anyone an angry reaction in the 7 years I've been here. I have nothing against homosexuals and if I was attending a church you would be welcome.
> 
> I'm a gentle self-controlled member here in good stand and have never been banned temporarily nor permanently. You will not be able to find any angry posts from me on my profile. My previous avatar was not stilettos That was a gross exaggeration and a low blow to my Christian character...exactly what you were intentionally going for. My avatar was clean and wholesome.
> 
> ...


I love your last or next to last sentence.  I try to not be argumentative but factual at the same time.


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