# So Much for "Police Protection"



## Don M. (Feb 23, 2018)

Recent news reports show that there WAS an armed police officer present when this latest school shooting took place.....BUT, he chose to stay safely outdoors for several minutes while the chaos was taking place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scot-peterson-florida-deputy-went-102503719.html

I certainly don't have any answers on how to stop this pandemic of school shootings, but it seems to me that we have several laws, rules, and procedures  already in place...MOST of which are either ignored or seldom enforced.  It seems to me that "Political Correctness" has replaced Common Sense when it comes to dealing with disturbed individuals who have a high potential of committing such acts.  There is certainly room for tighter restrictions on certain firearms, but unless the "HUMAN" issues are addressed, these kinds of things will continue to happen.


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## chic (Feb 23, 2018)

I heard this too. Unbelievable.


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## Sunny (Feb 23, 2018)

Did he give any explanation for his lack of action?  Was he following orders, or was this just his own bad judgement?


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## WhatInThe (Feb 23, 2018)

A 30 year sheriffs department veteran making $75,000 a year. In 2016 he made $101,000 with overtime, hoped he worked harder for the money than he did saving lives. 30 years means he was there for plenty of training & practice. He was clock punching until he could collect his pension. He doesn't even seem to care about his community living in another town/county. 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html

All he had to do was confront & engage the shooter and it probably would've stopped. Heck, most of these shooters shoot from a standing position which would've made him an easy target. Just a 15-30 second fire fight would've allowed many more to escape.


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## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Did he give any explanation for his lack of action?  Was he following orders, or was this just his own bad judgement?




 His superior officers are absolutely furious with him.  He has since left the police force.  As to why he failed to act, the answer is simple. He was unwilling to put his life in jeopardy to protect the kids. Compare that cops lack of action, to that of the coach. The cop stayed outside, safe from any harm. The coach used his own body as a human shield the protect the kids  and paid the ultimate price.


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## James (Feb 23, 2018)

I trained for a number of years for "Active Shooter" situations.  Columbine was the catalyst for my Department to proactively train to deal with these situations.  I can still recall the first day of training when our instructor said, "This is the time to reflect if you should be a cop.  If you are the first to arrive at an active shooter call and your backup is still a couple of minutes away, your team for entering, confronting and eliminating that threat is now ONE.  If you can't or you hesitate then lives will be lost.  Now is the time to search your soul for that answer because when seconds or minutes count there is no room for cowardice".

This is very disturbing to say the least.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 23, 2018)

Shameful, I guess he wanted to protect the students as long as his safety wasn't in jeopardy.  That coach who had no weapon and gave his life had a heart _and _a backbone, too bad he didn't live to be thanked.


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## rgp (Feb 23, 2018)

I have to wonder how much the recent non-support for police in general, influenced his hesitation? If they are too aggressive , and they take the life...their actions are questioned, they are even prosecuted on what seems like the 'finer' points of the situation. 

Here it seems he wasn't aggressive enough. 

We can 'second-guess' him all we want but...........


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## Robusta (Feb 23, 2018)

rgp said:


> I have to wonder how much the recent non-support for police in general, influenced his hesitation? If they are too aggressive , and they take the life...their actions are questioned, they are even prosecuted on what seems like the 'finer' points of the situation.
> 
> Here it seems he wasn't aggressive enough.
> 
> We can 'second-guess' him all we want but...........



Oh I certainly will second guess him.  He bid a cake walk job to pad his pension for a few more years. He never figured he would have to do any more than show up and collect a check!


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## oldman (Feb 23, 2018)

Pray.


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## 911 (Feb 23, 2018)

As a sworn police officer to uphold the law and protect the people, I must enter the building. That does not mean that I can't take a moment to put on my vest. Some body armor is better than none. As I enter the building, I will attempt to locate the shooter (s) and slowly make my way towards where the shooting is coming from. Once I locate the shooter, my goal then will be to take him down. All the while, I will remain in touch with my back ups that are on the way, so that they have some idea of the situation upon their arrival.

As for my weapon, that all depends. More than likely, I will have my .45 caliber Glock and also an H&K MP5A3 submachine gun. (Just in case there is more than one shooter.)


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## James (Feb 23, 2018)

The latest FBI studies show that approx 67% of active shooter incidents end before Police arrival.  We are now in a position to armchair quarterback this one, albeit all of the facts are not public yet.

1) At the time of the incident their was already an armed and apparently trained officer on scene.

2) The shooter was actively slaughtering students and teachers.  The officer didn't know if this was going to last seconds, minutes or hours.

3) He failed to enter, search for and engage the shooter.  Even 5, or 10 seconds could've made the difference for someone's life. 

 Doing nothing is not an option in these situations.


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## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

Any comments on this Twitter post?



> Chris Kyle, the greatest American sniper in military history, was shot and killed when confronted by a "crazy guy" with a gun.
> So we just have to train the teachers a lil bit better than Chris Kyle.


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## rgp (Feb 23, 2018)

Perhaps I'm wrong but....I just think {I} need a little more information before I smear the guy @ this point. If after investigation it proves out that he was incompetent ? Then he should be dealt with accordingly. Too easy to arm-chair quarterback @ this point.

Pretty safe bet he didn't want to die that day either...perhaps he spent too much time being cautious ? Perhaps he just failed his duty ?...I just don't think we know yet......jmo


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Any comments on this Twitter post?



It ignores the fact that Chris Kyle chose to be with the "crazy guy" with the gun, having decided taking someone with raging PTSD to the shooting range would somehow miraculously cure him. My take on it is that Kyle died from his own stupidity.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> A 30 year sheriffs department veteran making $75,000 a year. In 2016 he made $101,000 with overtime, hoped he worked harder for the money than he did saving lives. 30 years means he was there for plenty of training & practice. He was clock punching until he could collect his pension. He doesn't even seem to care about his community living in another town/county.
> 
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g/fl-florida-shooting-sro-20180222-story.html
> 
> All he had to do was confront & engage the shooter and it probably would've stopped. Heck, most of these shooters shoot from a standing position which would've made him an easy target. Just a 15-30 second fire fight would've allowed many more to escape.



It certainly shows the school's protection was low priority for the police department, probably around Job 98 or 99.


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## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

rgp said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong but....I just think {I} need a little more information before I smear the guy @ this point. If after investigation it proves out that he was incompetent ? Then he should be dealt with accordingly. Too easy to arm-chair quarterback @ this point.
> 
> Pretty safe bet he didn't want to die that day either...perhaps he spent too much time being cautious ? Perhaps he just failed his duty ?...I just don't think we know yet......jmo



And perhaps he was poorly trained and just froze.


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## Traveler (Feb 23, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> And perhaps he was poorly trained and just froze.




Yeah, he froze alright. Frozen with fear. I hope he lives a long time and every night, in his dreams, he sees the bloody bodies of those poor innocent children.


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## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

Have you walked a mile in his moccasins?

What happened to "wait for backup"? 
What was his weapon and how much ammunition did he have? 

There are a lot of questions that should be answered before rushing to judgement.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 23, 2018)

rgp said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong but....I just think {I} need a little more information before I smear the guy @ this point. If after investigation it proves out that he was incompetent ? Then he should be dealt with accordingly. Too easy to arm-chair quarterback @ this point.
> 
> Pretty safe bet he didn't want to die that day either...perhaps he spent too much time being cautious ? Perhaps he just failed his duty ?...I just don't think we know yet......jmo


Well, excuse me but his boss, the Sheriff calls it as it is.  He was a coward and did not do his duty.


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## James (Feb 23, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Have you walked a mile in his moccasins?
> 
> What happened to "wait for backup"?
> What was his weapon and how much ammunition did he have?
> ...



Waiting for backup is not an option.  In an Active Shooter situation if you are the first officer on scene and your backup hasn't arrived you go in with what you have and engage.  You're goal is to take that person out or in the very least, distract them from their slaughter. That's how every LEO is trained.  Freezing & Taking up a defensive position outside while the shooter is actively killing inside is doing nothing. That is not how we're trained.  Why he froze, who knows. He's the only one that can answer that part.


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## todalake (Feb 23, 2018)

Latest is that other county deputies got there and they didn't go in.    Waited for another police department to go in.     I saw a twitter account for Scot Peterson the deputy.   Full of pictures of guns and how tough he was.


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## Warrigal (Feb 23, 2018)

What concerns me is that the deputy is being scapegoated for the murders and attempted murders. 
That lets all of the negligent lawmakers off the hook.
And the lobbyists for the arms and munitions industry.


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## rgp (Feb 23, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Well, excuse me but his boss, the Sheriff calls it as it is.  He was a coward and did not do his duty.



  Well....maybe, but maybe his boss is just covering his own ass right now ? I just don't think we know enough to say for sure @ this point ? These things , often seem to 'compile' more & more information as they roll along it seems....I just choose to wait for it to quit rolling so-to-speak.

Just a scenario...He the [copper] steps through the door , quickly...sees the shooter, and kills him. I'm willing to bet, by now...some would be saying, well he could have / should have just shot him in the leg....he [shooter] was only 19 !

Kiln fired brick & steel door locker hallways...are echo chambers...did he [copper] know for sure how many shooters there were ? / where the shooter was ? He does no-one any good stepping in and getting himself slaughtered either. 

I am not making excuses for the officer, I just have some questions that {I} can see passing through his mind @ the time.


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## todalake (Feb 23, 2018)

There are no excuses for an armed trained policeman whose task was to protect the students to go outside and hide behind a building.


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## James (Feb 23, 2018)

No one is making him a scapegoat for anything.

 His actions were akin to a trained firefighter not going into a fire in an attempt to save known occupants that are still inside.  If he makes no attempt then all will surely perish where if he tries there is a chance he can save someone.

No one blames him for the fire but he sure as heck will be blamed for not attempting a rescue and possibly saving a life.

No one is blaming this officer for the actions of the shooter but he sure as heck is being blamed for his own inaction which very possibly resulted in more deaths.


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## rgp (Feb 23, 2018)

todalake said:


> There are no excuses for an armed trained policeman whose task was to protect the students to go outside and hide behind a building.



Do you know for a fact that, that _is_ what happened ?


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 23, 2018)

In Scot Peterson's defense, he probably thought school duty meant he would occasionally harass kids for smoking on school grounds. I doubt he expected to be called upon for anything serious.

He was definitely the wrong man for the job, but it shows the lack of seriousness the police department gave to protecting the school.


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## Happyflowerlady (Feb 23, 2018)

Apparently, even CNN is reporting that there were actually several deputies that were outside of the school while people were being shot and killed inside of the school, and they all stood outside and waited for the police department to show up and go inside. 
If this is so, then it does not seem like just one of the deputies should end up being the scapegoat for none of them going inside. 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27523/breaking-cnn-reports-four-broward-county-deputies-ben-shapiro


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## James (Feb 23, 2018)

Just read that Coral Springs Deputies that arrived on scene observed four BCSO deputies standing around.  What a cluster.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2018)

In Australia we don't have 'deputies'. We have either members of state police forces or the federal police. They are very well trained.
They begin as probationary constables and advance up the ranks to commissioner.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment/the_training/the_academy

I am confused about the role of a deputy, who they report to and what is the extent of their training. 
Can someone please fill me in?


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## 911 (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> The latest FBI studies show that approx 67% of active shooter incidents end before Police arrival.  We are now in a position to armchair quarterback this one, albeit all of the facts are not public yet.
> 
> 1) At the time of the incident their was already an armed and apparently trained officer on scene.
> 
> ...




There was a time when we were told not to enter a building when there is an active shooter, but wait for back-up to arrive. That protocol has now changed. Once on the scene and we are the first to arrive, we need to get into the building ASAP. I carry my vest on the back seat and can have it on and locked in less than 10 seconds. There is a ballistic plate located on the center over the area of the heart. I will generally take my metal badge from my wallet and lay it over the plate as added protection. Pennsylvania State Police do not have a metal badge on their uniform, but we do carry an ID wallet with a metal badge. The wallet can be folded to lay over the center plate on the vest.


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## dpwspringer (Feb 24, 2018)

911 said:


> There was a time when we were told not to enter a building when there is an active shooter, but wait for back-up to arrive. That protocol has now changed. Once on the scene and we are the first to arrive, we need to get into the building ASAP. I carry my vest on the back seat and can have it on and locked in less than 10 seconds. There is a ballistic plate located on the center over the area of the heart. I will generally take my metal badge from my wallet and lay it over the plate as added protection. Pennsylvania State Police do not have a metal badge on their uniform, but we do carry an ID wallet with a metal badge. The wallet can be folded to lay over the center plate on the vest.


I don't know about charging into an active shooter situation by yourself (which was what many of his critics seem to think he should have done) when the active shooter clearly(?) has an automatic weapon and all you have is yourself (an older man, I assume) and a pistol. That said, it would seem that he had an obligation to at least try to move forward as far as he felt he could to assess the situation and see if he could find some non-suicidal way to try and end the carnage or bring to safety as many as he could.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

dpwspringer said:


> I don't know about charging into an active shooter situation by yourself (which was what many of his critics seem to think he should have done) when the active shooter clearly(?) has an automatic weapon and all you have is yourself (an older man, I assume) and a pistol. That said, it would seem that he had an obligation to at least try to move forward as far as he felt he could to assess the situation and see if he could find some non-suicidal way to try and end the carnage or bring to safety as many as he could.



It was semi-auto, not auto.

And, an experienced (which you call "older") officer with a pistol vs. a punk teenager with a AR-15? 

I'll take the odds on the experienced officer every time. The teen isn't going to be used to someone shooting back and will likely commit errors.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

The way every LEO is trained in North America is the same for Acticve Shooters.  My Dept. began this training after Columbine.  The reality of it is, when you arrive on scene and you are the only one there, you go in with what you have and hunt the pos down.  He or she is in the process of slaughtering humans and needs to be stopped or distracted from their killing spree.  Engaging the suspect will have one of 3 results.  You will eliminate the threat, you may be eliminated by the threat, or the threat may eliminate themselves when engaged.  

That's the way it is, that's the way we are trained, that's what is expected. Seconds matter and waiting for backup does not enter the picture.. If it costs your life but it distracts the sob you will save lives and buy more time for other officers to arrive and put an end to it.  

Who knows why Petersen or any other Deputy waited outside while these children and teachers were being slaughtered.  With all of the training we get the protocol & the expectations are abundantly clear, you go in.  Petersen and who ever else that didn't go in may very well be great people, great and respected deputies....up until now.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> In Australia we don't have 'deputies'. We have either members of state police forces or the federal police. They are very well trained.
> They begin as probationary constables and advance up the ranks to commissioner.
> 
> http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment
> ...



I'm from Canada. In my Province, Ontario, we have 3 basic levels of Law Enforcement.  We have Federal, the RCMP.  In this Province they don't do Street Patrols or respond to calls.  They look after National Threats, surveillance, Customs, Drug Enforcement, etc.  In other Provinces in Canada they also look after policing in rural areas or within Municipalities that don't have there own Police Departments,

Next in Ontario you have the Ontario Provincial Police.  This was my Department.  We looked after patrolling major highways, waterways, rural areas as well Municipal areas that don't have their own Departments.

Next are the Municipal Departments.  Municipalities that have their own Police.

We all receive the same training which is mandated by the Government of Ontario.  The training is very good and we do a lot of cross training with each other.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2018)

Thanks James.

We differ in that municipalities do not have their own police personnel. We have just two levels - state which includes highway patrol and transport policing, and federal, including counter terrorism, customs and border protection.

I'm still wondering about the US situation where there are descriptions unfamiliar to me - trooper and deputy being just two.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I am confused about the role of a deputy, who they report to and what is the extent of their training.
> Can someone please fill me in?



Do you know the old TV show - _The Andy Griffith Show_?

Do you remember Deputy Barney Fife? He reported to the Sheriff, which is a local function here. 

Unfortunately, he was the role model for many deputies in the States.

Here are the requirements in my state (PA) and my county - 



> *REQUIRED KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS, AND ABILITIES INCLUDE, BUT NOT LIMITED TO:*
> 
> • Ability to communicate effectively with co-workers and the public.
> • Knowledge of English grammar, punctuation and spelling.
> ...



*Act 2 Deputy Certification - *



> Basic training shall consist of instruction in the topics of Introduction to Criminal Justice, Unified Court System of Pennsylvania, Civil Law and Procedure, Crimes Code and Criminal Procedure, Other Legal Issues, Court Security, Prisoner Transport, First Aid/CPR, Crisis Intervention, Families in Crisis, Firearms, Defensive Tactics, Less than Lethal Weapons, Emergency Vehicle Operations, Communications, Ethics and Professional Development, Technology and Law Enforcement, Physical Conditioning, Cultural Diversity, State and Local Anti-Terrorism Training, Special Needs Groups, PA Motor Vehicle Code, Motor Vehicle Collision Investigation/Hazardous Material, Patrol Procedures and Operations and Principles of Criminal Investigations.
> 
> 
> A deputy sheriff shall attain at least the minimum score established by the Board on written tests designed for each topic area and shall demonstrate proficiency in all practical skills in order to successfully complete training and be certified by the Board.



Okay, so maybe a _little_ more training than Barney had ...


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

The US have a couple of more layers than we do. 911 on this Board is a retired Trooper so I'll defer that explanation to him or someone else that's familiar with it.

In this Province the number of smaller Municipal Departments are dwindling. They are opting to contracting out Service from my Department or larger departments that are close to them to save tax $$.


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## moviequeen1 (Feb 24, 2018)

I wonder how Scot Peterson is sleeping these days,if he and his family are being harassed or threatened by people who hold him responsible for not entering the school. Sue


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

moviequeen1 said:


> I wonder how Scot Peterson is sleeping these days,if he and his family are being harassed or threatened by people who hold him responsible for not entering the school. Sue



If he is human, not very well.  Apparently from what the media is printing, he and his family are under Police Protection.  According to Police Union reps, he is of the belief that he performed his duties well.  

Even his Union disagrees with that.


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## fmdog44 (Feb 24, 2018)

An AR15 can shoot through all of the police vests. hey do a lot of damage to human tissue. I don't agree with what he did but I can understand it. When you are short in the military and your platoon gets a dangerous assignment the shorts are given consideration when someone needs to stay behind. This cop was near retirement he may have had such thoughts. He is human under that uniform.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

As we all are.  No one wants to die but that is what is expected if that's what it takes. We swear an oath, we are given the training, we know the expectations and we know the possible outcomes including our own demise.

Those kids and teachers had no weapons, had no vests, he was their protection.

Its too bad he didn't realize he couldn't do what was expected of him before this and left.

Hopefully if there is any good in this it will give pause to others that wear a uniform to reflect on their own abilities and do the right thing if they come up short.


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## hearlady (Feb 24, 2018)

Some people give their lives without hesitation for a good and noble cause and never know the outcome.
Some people hesitate and then must live with the outcome. 
Not many people know for sure which person you'll be until the situation arises.
Seems like if he was trained well enough for this situation his training would have kicked in without hesitation.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 24, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks James.
> 
> We differ in that municipalities do not have their own police personnel. We have just two levels - state which includes highway patrol and transport policing, and federal, including counter terrorism, customs and border protection.
> 
> I'm still wondering about the US situation where there are descriptions unfamiliar to me - trooper and deputy being just two.



Trooper in most states is a 'state trooper' or state police who basically have jurisdiction any where in that state. In many states they basically wind up patrolling highways or handle specific crimes unless asked in by a local jurisdiction. The sheriff and/or deputies are at the county level, they cover any town in that county. The municipal or city police officer cover one specific municipality, town or city. Since most states mandate training requirements and certification programs most law enforcement officers wind up with a state certification which gives them a certain degree of jurisdiction anywhere in that state.

 Also just to be armed private security in  most states require 40-60 hours of weapons training. Also many places have a policy if not mandate of year round training. I can't believe this deputy didn't have to go the shooting range at least once a year.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> ... I can't believe this deputy didn't have to go the shooting range at least once a year.



He may well have, but of course there's a difference between range shooting and having the sand to use your weapon in a real confrontation. In a real sceario time both speeds up and slows down, you have to deal with adrenaline dumps and mental and physical conflicts, and there is no plan to follow except for your training.


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## Robusta (Feb 24, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I'm still wondering about the US situation where there are descriptions unfamiliar to me - trooper and deputy being just two.



Warri! each state has differences.
Since I am in New York I will explain our system.
We have village, municipal,and city police.  They have full powers of arrest and must possess a "Municipal, Village Police" certificate. Equivalent to a 2 year degree.
Sheriff is an elected position. The position is mostly administrative but he is the head law enforcement officer for his county.
Most counties have four divisions  Corrections, Patrol, Civil,and Investigative.  Deputies are the sheriffs employees.  They are fully trained law enforcement officers with full powers of arrest within their county
New York State Troopers are the state police force, with full police power through out the state.  State Troopers are highly trained most with a bachelors degree. State Troopers graduate from Academy and start work at just under $100,000 per year. 
Their are a few other smaller State Agencies, such as Fish and Game ,Park Police,etc that have different areas of focus but all derive their authority thru the auspice of the State Trooper.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2018)

Thanks Robusta.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 24, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> He may well have, but of course there's a difference between range shooting and having the sand to use your weapon in a real confrontation. In a real sceario time both speeds up and slows down, you have to deal with adrenaline dumps and mental and physical conflicts, and there is no plan to follow except for your training.



When I say range I'm including some basic scenarios along with hitting the target. Most military and police do that. Most murdering shooters don't. The Dallas cop killer is the only one that I can recall actually practicing tactics along with shooting.  This is exactly it's even more frustrating not seeing this deputy go in because believe or not I think he had a tactical advantage of training and/or repetition. 

The deputy's weapon even though a pistol should've/would've been like a common tool at this point and shouldn't have to think about the weapon or aim. If it malfunctions he should instinctively know what to do ie clear a jam etc. Most murdering shooters don't practice or train doing that under pressure, they could do that a range nice and comfortable but can they do it from a kneeling or more awkward position or more importantly while taking fire. Again this a point of frustration of the 'deputy' not engaging the shooter. Since the cowardly killer was found blocks away I think he would've fled if simply confronted. Unlike most shooters who commit suicide and/or suicide by cop I think after he realized someone was firing back he would've fled. This is part of the going in strategy stop or delay. The deputy didn't know that but since policy and practice and hopefully training is go in he failed miserably.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> When I say range I'm including some basic scenarios along with hitting the target. Most military and police do that. Most murdering shooters don't. The Dallas cop killer is the only one that I can recall actually practicing tactics along with shooting. This is exactly it's even more frustrating not seeing this deputy go in because believe or not I think he had a tactical advantage of training and/or repetition.
> 
> The deputy's weapon even though a pistol should've/would've been like a common tool at this point and shouldn't have to think about the weapon or aim. If it malfunctions he should instinctively know what to do ie clear a jam etc. Most murdering shooters don't practice or train doing that under pressure, they could do that a range nice and comfortable but can they do it from a kneeling or more awkward position or more importantly while taking fire. Again this a point of frustration of the 'deputy' not engaging the shooter. Since the cowardly killer was found blocks away I think he would've fled if simply confronted. Unlike most shooters who commit suicide and/or suicide by cop I think after he realized someone was firing back he would've fled. This is part of the going in strategy stop or delay. The deputy didn't know that but since policy and practice and hopefully training is go in he failed miserably.



Totally agree.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Totally agree.



Yes.  If you train the way you want to fight, you will fight the way you train.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> Yes.  If you train the way you want to fight, you will fight the way you train.



Wow. I had to spin around there for a second - I thought my Sifu was standing behind me.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

sifuphil said:


> wow. I had to spin around there for a second - i thought my sifu was standing behind me.



lol


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## Knight (Feb 24, 2018)

A trained and armed school police officer seems to be taking the brunt on inaction.  I'd like to mention self preservation as a motivator for the delay. Basically based on thinking schools have open hallways, multiple shots being heard and not knowing how many shooters may be in the school. Would it be the smartest move to rush in to confront the unknown in open hallways? Or do like the other 3? 




(CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.


With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html


Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

As I've said before. 

ALL LEO are trained in the Active Shooter protocol.  He was trained in the protocol.  Doing nothing is exactly that.  You do not wait. Waiting means people will die. He failed and any other LEO that waited before entering that school  failed.

The training we've had since Columbine is very clear, the protocol is very clear, the expectations of every cop that responds to these incidents is abundantly clear.

 He failed.


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## Camper6 (Feb 24, 2018)

He heard the staccatto fiiring.  Figured he had a semi aumatice (the kind I am alway griping about).  The so called inanimate object.

He figured he was outgunned and couldn't figure where the fire was coming from.


Here's the answer.  Ban the AR-15's except for schools.  There you go. No one would dare attack with anything else if they knew what was good for them.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

If that was the case then he "figured" wrong.

He failed.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Knight said:


> Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?



No danger of that with this deputy or the other three deputies who hid behind their cars.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 24, 2018)

Knight said:


> A trained and armed school police officer seems to be taking the brunt on inaction.  I'd like to mention self preservation as a motivator for the delay. Basically based on thinking schools have open hallways, multiple shots being heard and not knowing how many shooters may be in the school. Would it be the smartest move to rush in to confront the unknown in open hallways? Or do like the other 3?...



The policy which basically a standing order in a paramilitary organization is to go in and engage the shooter. There is nothing tactical to think about.  It is to disrupt, delay, distract the shooter as much as it is to apprehend or bring things to a final resolution.

Entering & clearing a building/room is part of combat shooting training and scenarios given to most law enforcement now a days. Yes the hallways are open but to fire down one the shooter must expose themselves as well(most school shooters wind up standing and shooting from what I've read over the years). The corner of a concrete wall could provide cover as could taking a kneeling or prone position. Again from what I've seen and heard over the year most of these school shooters don't barricade themselves in or set up position like the Vegas shooter. Active shooter is exactly that which means the situation is fluid where tactics, not weapons should win the day. 

As to friendly fire especially if they know others are on scene most police know in detail what the local uniform looks like and they could always challenge a potential target in some way. Yes shooting an innocent is the worst case scenario but saving innocents is THE primary goal. But isn't shooting an innocent always an issue(chance part of the job). Any time a cop fires there is always a chance a stray round could go through a window, wall or simply miss a target or themselves could misidentify a target.


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## rgp (Feb 24, 2018)

Knight said.......

  "Over the last few years police officers have been condemned for reacting to quickly . What would the story be if he rushed in and shot an innocent?"

  That's the point I've been making...they're dammed if they do & dammed if they don't...

  An officer doing a Clint Eastwood style rush in, guns blazing...does no one any  good either if he gets cut down, the second he clears the door.

 Another thought or two, do we know @ what point the shooter ran out?  Where was the deputy when the first shot was heard ? Did he think his better stand would be made outside? Like I said earlier....too much that we do not know...just now.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

We aren't Cowboys.  We train for this. It's our job. It is what it is.


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## HipGnosis (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> We aren't Cowboys.  We train for this. It's our job. It is what it is.



Or movie star super-heros.

I surmise that the three Broward County Sheriff's deputies that were the first to arrive on scene were outside the school because they were expecting a situation report from Peterson, but, of course, he couldn't give them one because he had no idea what the situation was.

Peterson took the school assignment.  He took the pay and benefits for the risk.  What he did was called 'cowardice under fire' or 'cowardice in the face of the enemy' in the military.   It was punished by execution.  He should be stripped of all pension and benefits.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

Heads should roll.


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## IKE (Feb 24, 2018)

HipGnosis said:


> He should be stripped of all pensions and benefits.
> 
> 
> I agree.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

I don't know a lot and I'm just going out here on a limb, but it used to be that when they posted an officer in schools it was for breakin' up fights, patrolling for drug use. I'm just not sure this guy was trained or ready for what he was about to encounter. That being said he had a weapon and could have intervened, what I heard was it was 4 minutes he waited, That's not a lot of time to decide what action you should take. I'm not trying to take up for him. I think the system is broke....


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I don't know a lot and I'm just going out here on a limb, but it used to be that when they posted an officer in schools it was for breakin' up fights, patrolling for drug use. I'm just not sure this guy was trained or ready for what he was about to encounter. That being said he had a weapon and could have intervened, what I heard was it was 4 minutes he waited, That's not a lot of time to decide what action you should take. I'm not trying to take up for him. I think the system is broke....



All Police Agencies in North America have been training for Active Shooter incidents since Columbine (mandatory training)  so without a doubt he was trained.

The protocol is to enter, engage and eliminate the threat or in the very least distract them from their slaughter and save innocent lives.  

When you figure how quickly someone can squeeze a trigger and reload with pre loaded magazines, then every second counts.  

If you wait, humans are being slaughtered in seconds.  Waiting is not an option.

As I've said before, this is how we are trained, this is what the protocol is, the expectations are abundantly clear.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I don't know a lot and I'm just going out here on a limb, but it used to be that when they posted an officer in schools it was for breakin' up fights, patrolling for drug use. I'm just not sure this guy was trained or ready for what he was about to encounter. That being said he had a weapon and could have intervened, what I heard was it was 4 minutes he waited, That's not a lot of time to decide what action you should take. I'm not trying to take up for him.* I think the system is broke....*



I agree, in this particular case so many different parts of the system failed in the months leading up to this tragedy.  If things had been done differently we would be dealing with one troubled teenager instead of a mass murderer and his 17 young victims.  Very sad.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I don't know a lot and I'm just going out here on a limb, but it used to be that when they posted an officer in schools it was for breakin' up fights, patrolling for drug use. I'm just not sure this guy was trained or ready for what he was about to encounter. That being said he had a weapon and could have intervened, what I heard was it was 4 minutes he waited, That's not a lot of time to decide what action you should take. I'm not trying to take up for him. I think the system is broke....



He probably hoped all he would be required to do was break up some fights and bust some kids for smoking, but that would require ignoring the frequency of school shootings.

Four minutes is a massive amount of time when someone is shooting an automatic rifle. It might not seem like much when you're watching a TV show, but think about how long that would be if you were standing outside a school listening to a gunman firing at the people inside. Big difference.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> All Police Agencies in North America have been training for Active Shooter incidents since Columbine (mandatory training)  so without a doubt he was trained.
> 
> The protocol is to enter, engage and eliminate the threat or in the very least distract them from their slaughter and save innocent lives.
> 
> ...




I get it.. I just have to wonder if protocol is being followed in training...(again) I'm not taking up for this guy....I still believe the system may be where the failure is. It's just all a sad sad thing. They should at the very least put a well trained officer in our schools. Maybe what I'm trying to say is his experience might ought to play in the decision.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

> Four minutes is a massive amount of time when someone is shooting an automatic rifle. It might not seem like much when you're watching a TV show, but think about how long that would be if you were standing outside a school listening to a gunman firing at the people inside. Big difference.



I was in no way relating that to watching a TV show. I was relating it to standing there thinking about whether I would just barge in gun firing (with the amount of ammo I had) or trying to get behind the guy and take him out. Big difference.....


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I get it.. I just have to wonder if protocol is being followed in training...(again) I'm not taking up for this guy....I still believe the system may be where the failure is. It's just all a sad sad thing. They should at the very least put a well trained officer in our schools. Maybe what I'm trying to say is his experience might ought to play in the decision.



The officer in question had a lot of seniority. He probably bid on this job, thinking it was going to be a walk in the park until he retired. Because of his seniority, he would have been given the job, no matter how badly qualified he may have been. For all we know, he was known for his laziness and lackluster performance, but he was able to hang on and not ruffle feathers in his department's hierarchy (the kind of thing that gets better qualified officers demoted). It's the old Peter Principle in action.

I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories about people who work for the government, whether it be federal, state, county or local.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I was in no way relating that to watching a TV show. I was relating it to standing there thinking about whether I would just barge in gun firing (with the amount of ammo I had) or trying to get behind the guy and take him out. Big difference.....



Consider that some people can run a mile in that time if the TV show analogy bothers you.


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## RadishRose (Feb 24, 2018)

How could he know where the shooter was or if there were a bunch of shooters? He was only one person in a huge place. Or maybe I just don't understand the training.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> The officer in question had a lot of seniority. He probably bid on this job, thinking it was going to be a walk in the park until he retired. Because of his seniority, he would have been given the job, no matter how badly qualified he may have been. For all we know, he was known for his laziness and lackluster performance, but he was able to hang on and not ruffle feathers in his department's hierarchy (the kind of thing that gets better qualified officers demoted). It's the old Peter Principle in action.
> 
> I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories about people who work for the government, whether it be federal, state, county or local.



Exactly.... So isn't that the system failing....they need to change the way of thinkin' about who they put where.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> Exactly.... So isn't that the system failing....they need to change the way of thinkin' about who they put where.



I totally agree. I posted on another thread about this that putting this dud in that position shows how little priority the sheriff's department gave to school security.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Consider that some people can run a mile in that time if the TV show analogy bothers you.




Doesn't bother me just responding to your analogy.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

We're all trained the same way.  Its mandatory.  His training would be the same as anyone else that initially responded to this.  We are trained to do entry in teams with members of our own departments or any other department that arrives or solo.

I've been retired for a couple of years but the training I received here in Canada would almost mirror the training he received.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I totally agree. I posted on another thread about this that putting this dud in that position shows how little priority the sheriff's department gave to school security.



My thinking....they need to rethink what they are doing.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> We're all trained the same way.  Its mandatory.  His training would be the same as anyone else that initially responded to this.  We are trained to do entry in teams or solo.




Yes all are trained the same but, do they really think that if they are put in a position of patrolling a school in (lets just say rural america) that they will ever encounter such things as a mass shooter. So they accept the job but mentally are not prepared....I think not so much.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> How could he know where the shooter was or if there were a bunch of shooters? He was only one person in a huge place. Or maybe I just don't understand the training.



On the ground intelligence. In other words you go towards the sound of the gunfire or where survivors are directing you, gathering and relaying information to other officers as you are moving towards the threat.  In this case the gunfire was ongoing in the building that he was standing in front of.  That's where you go. People, children are being slaughtered with each round you hear.  

What he did or in this case didnt do is just incomprehensible.


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> Yes all are trained the same but, do they really think that if they are put in a position of patrolling a school in (lets just say rural america) that they will ever encounter such things as a mass shooter. So they accept the job but mentally are not prepared....I think not so much.



Most of my career was in rural areas.  Our job is to be mentally prepared for this or for engaging a threat in a bar or a traffic stop.  Your life depends on it, and so does mine.  This can happen and does happen everywhere.  Schools, factories, churches, rural and City.

Obviously for what ever reason, that only he can explain, he was not mentally prepared and at this point it really doesn't matter.  He failed.

What does matter is finding a way of weeding out others like him.

Much will be learned from the post mortem of this event and a lot of it is going to be very sobering.


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## RadishRose (Feb 24, 2018)

I think he froze, was overcome with fear, I don't think he can sleep at night. I shouldn't feel sorry for him- he let all those kids die, but I think he is anguished about his failure, just imho. I understand now there have been some death threats?


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## Knight (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> If that was the case then he "figured" wrong.
> 
> He failed.


I've always considered that it is easy to sit at a computer in the safety of one's home and judge the actions or inaction of another a pretty easy place to judge from. Zero consequences. Charging towards gun fire sounds good until being shot at until you realize you are exposed to an unknown amount of shooters. No way to know who the shooter or shooters are. Most if not all schools have open hall ways with class room doors where multiple shooters could be. 

After the fact Monday morning quarter backing when facts are known beats being there and having to decide how to best resolve the situation. 

Did the school officer have a vest on? What exactly was his training? I don't know and I haven't read any reports explaining in detail  exactly all the scenarios he was trained to deal with. 

Bottom line heaping blame on a single person when so many others failed IMO is wrong


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

James said:


> Most of my career was in rural areas.  Our job is to be mentally prepared for this or for engaging a threat in a bar or a traffic stop.  Your life depends on it, and so does mine.  This can happen and does happen everywhere.  Schools, factories, churches, rural and City.
> 
> Obviously for what ever reason, that only he can explain, he was not mentally prepared and at this point it really doesn't matter.  He failed.
> 
> ...



Yes have to weed out.. the system has to figure it out. I don't have the answers but somebody has got to figure it out..it may only get worse. If that's possible (not sure it could be).


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## James (Feb 24, 2018)

He appears to be part in a list of many failures.  

I trained for this for 15 years and attended calls for possible active shooters at schools {student with a gun}...fortunately they turned to be false alarms, but the response was the same.  So yes I'll criticize.

His part of the failure in this was not doing anything and that imho is a very large part.


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## Seeker (Feb 24, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> I think he froze, was overcome with fear, I don't think he can sleep at night. I shouldn't feel sorry for him- he let all those kids die, but I think he is anguished about his failure, just imho. I understand now there have been some death threats?




I don't think he will ever sleep good again..The compassion in me feels deeply for all involved. All being said he could very easily have been among the fatalities. It's just hard to know the heart of anyone else. Just so sad any way you look at it.


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## RadishRose (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I don't think he will ever sleep good again..The compassion in me feels deeply for all involved. All being said he could very easily have been among the fatalities. It's just hard to know the heart of anyone else. Just so sad any way you look at it.



Yes I agree with you. Exactly how I feel.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 24, 2018)

Seeker said:


> I don't think he will ever sleep good again..The compassion in me feels deeply for all involved. All being said he could very easily have been among the fatalities. It's just hard to know the heart of anyone else. Just so sad any way you look at it.



I'll save my pity for those killed. 

This guy was wrong, no matter how you look at it. 

"To Serve and Protect" ... he did neither.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> I think he froze, was overcome with fear, I don't think he can sleep at night. I shouldn't feel sorry for him- he let all those kids die, but I think he is anguished about his failure, just imho. I understand now there have been some death threats?



Death threats flow readily these days. 
I understand a (14 year old?) boy survivor who questioned Marco Rubio on TV has also received death threats.

http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/02/florida-shooting-survivor-gets-nra-death-threats-on-facebook.html


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## KingsX (Feb 24, 2018)

.

*Lawmaker asks Gov. Scott to remove Broward Sheriff Scott Israel after Parkland shooting*


" BOCA RATON, Fla. (CBS12)  

*Rep. Bill Hager (Boca Raton), the chairman of the Florida House of Justice Appropriations, has called on Gov. Rick Scott to remove Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel - a power the governor has under Florida law - from his post for neglect of duty and incompetence in regards to the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.*

In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

more at link

http://cbs12.com/news/local/lawmake...-sheriff-scott-israel-after-parkland-shooting


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## 911 (Feb 25, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> An AR15 can shoot through all of the police vests. hey do a lot of damage to human tissue. I don't agree with what he did but I can understand it. When you are short in the military and your platoon gets a dangerous assignment the shorts are given consideration when someone needs to stay behind. This cop was near retirement he may have had such thoughts. He is human under that uniform.



That's not exactly a true statement. There are several different grades of vests available. Some require that only an armor piercing bullet will penetrate any vest. If a shooter using an AR-15 is using .223 shells, depending on the distance, the vest that I carried would stand up to it. Our vests had a ballistic plate over the heart. Our vests were also stab proof. However, in most cases, large guns using high velocity shells would normally penetrate a vest, but again, it depends on distance and speed of the bullet.


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## RadishRose (Feb 25, 2018)

Warrigal, I was only asking if the cop at the school received death threats, I'm not discussing Rubio and the boy who spoke with him in this thread; that's another topic. This is about the police protection at the school. Thanks.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2018)

Understood RR. 

I had just finished reading about the other situation and the thought occurred to me that on social media death threats are very common these days. I imagine this is why the authorities have trouble sorting out the serious threats from the merely nasty. I wonder whether all such threats are followed up with a police interview and serious warning.


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## 911 (Feb 25, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Understood RR.
> 
> I had just finished reading about the other situation and the thought occurred to me that on social media death threats are very common these days. I imagine this is why the authorities have trouble sorting out the serious threats from the merely nasty. I wonder whether all such threats are followed up with a police interview and serious warning.




This presents a complicated situation. If someone threatens another's life, the threat must be credible. Sometimes, more often than not, people will say things they don'y really mean it literally. IOW, if I posted on Facebook that the next time a driver shoots me the bird, I am going to kill him or her, it may be possible that a policeman may seek a warrant to get the poster's IP address from Facebook and from there, obtain their residential address. 

A policeman really needs to believe that the threat is credible before he takes any action. To get a judge to sign a warrant for his/her address, you need more than just a post on social media. So, you have to conduct an investigation. I would ask neighbors, coworkers and/or relatives, if they thought the poster was actually capable of carrying out their threat. Maybe then, the officer could obtain a warrant to get the poster's address and go have a talk with that person. 

If a cop would walk up to an individual and accuse them of making a threat and that person would deny doing it, then what? Any accusation that you make to an individual requires substantive proof. So, it's best to have something to support the claim made by the officer. 

My statements may not satisfy your question, but it's the best that I can do without having more information.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

...and there lies part of the problem.  A lot of people are just not willing to become involved whether it be friends, relatives, neighbor's, heck even direct witnesses and victims change their level of cooperation more than one would believe throughout the course of an investigation or any subsequent prosecutions.

If a suspect has a running history of such behaviors we still can't charge someone based on that alone.  If we do charge someone with a crime such as threatening then and only then can his past be used in evidence, such as a criminal record, or previous incidents that involved police.  But still we need witness, victim cooperation and what ever other evidence we can collect to get to that point.

When it comes to detaining someone for a mental health assessment it can prove to be just as complex and there is still that thing of evidence that you need to collect to satisfy his or her detainment.  Then of course with mental health assessments not only do you have to satisfy a judge in some cases, you also have to satisfy a doctor and or psychiatrists.  In the latter cases the medical professionals usually have the last say on whether a person is detained or not, for how long and what treatment or precautions are required.

Unfortunately we can't arrest on hunches or guesses. {Although in many circumstances those hunches and guesses are right}


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

*Broward deputies did NOT respond to security alarms on other occasions.*

One of the things that has comeout about this non responding pos deputy is that he was paid to live on campus as part of a program to beef up school security. He and others could live rent free on onsite living quarters. After an audit around 2015 the program was considered a waste after they discovered that deputies were not responding to 73% of security alarms. And  weren't keeping logs and/or records of their activities.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/23/school-resource-officer-scot-peterson-pa


Then when they wanted to terminate the program this pos deputy complained they were messing with 'people's livelyhoods'. Which is just another confirmation he was a clock puncher.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> One of the things that has comeout about this non responding pos deputy is that he was paid to live on campus as part of a program to beef up school security. He and others could live rent free on onsite living quarters. After an audit around 2015 the program was considered a waste after they discovered that deputies were not responding to 73% of security alarms. And  weren't keeping logs and/or records of their activities.
> 
> https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/23/school-resource-officer-scot-peterson-pa
> 
> ...



I read that as well.  Here north of the border the school resource officer program is being looked at.... policing costs vs value for the $.  One large City just put an end to it and others may follow.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

*shooter eluded the deputies outside*

One of the things that seems to be getting lost with these cowardly deputies taking up defensive positions outside is that the shooter got away. They caught him off campus blocks away. Yet they were there before the shooting stopped. So much for their defensive perimeter. I don't recall where exactly did they find the shooters gun again?


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## todalake (Feb 25, 2018)

Well he wasn't underpaid.   Nice pension!

Peterson had been the resource officer at Douglas High School since 2009 and made a base annual salary of $75,673.72 as of 2016, according to sheriff’s office records cited by the Sun-Sentinel newspaper.
That base salary, however, doesn’t include longevity and first-responder bonuses that probably brought Peterson’s non-overtime pay closer to $80,000, according to Bell.
Peterson’s pension will be *75 percent of the average of his top five earning years *while on the job, the union head said.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

Within seconds there is mass chaos with hundreds of kids adults running for their lives as well as classrooms going into lockdown. In this case the pos also set off a fire alarm to add to the chaos. With the limited number of officers that can respond within that 0 - 10 minute window the ability to control that perimeter is challenging to say the least, especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors.

However, that's where you rely on the Active Shooter training that teachers and students receive.  They help to control that mass panic and confusion while responding officers are inside hunting the pos down and getting information from witnesses they can broadcast out to other officers that are forming that perimeter.

But, if you have no one immediately inside hunting the pos down and relaying information to those establishing a perimeter, and engaging him before he has time to exit or kill even more, that is a big problem.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

James said:


> Within seconds there is mass chaos with hundreds of kids adults running for their lives as well as classrooms going into lockdown. In this case the pos also set off a fire alarm to add to the chaos. With the limited number of officers that can respond within that 0 - 10 minute window the ability to control that perimeter is challenging to say the least, especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors.
> 
> However, that's where you rely on the Active Shooter training that teachers and students receive.  They help to control that mass panic and confusion while responding officers are inside hunting the pos down and getting information from witnesses they can broadcast out to other officers that are forming that perimeter.
> 
> But, if you have no one immediately inside hunting the pos down and relaying information to those establishing a perimeter, and engaging him before he has time to exit or kill even more, that is a big problem.



I get it happens fast and there is confusion in the early stages but if these deputies were in place observing the kids coming out I find it hard to believe the shooter wouldn't be more disheveled, sweaty(Florida) and/or have an imprint of a gasmask on his face(some reports have him wearing a mask or gas mask). It is second guessing and there was the delay of the security feed but I can't believe there wasn't at least one indicator as to the suspect. In the end I can see getting as many students out of there as soon as possible.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> I get it happens fast and there is confusion in the early stages but if these deputies were in place observing the kids coming out I find it hard to believe the shooter wouldn't be more disheveled, sweaty(Florida) and/or have an imprint of a gasmask on his face(some reports have him wearing a mask or gas mask). It is second guessing and there was the delay of the security feed but I can't believe there wasn't at least one indicator as to the suspect. In the end I can see getting as many students out of there as soon as possible.



The post mortem of the event will no doubt shed some light on the who, what, where and when's, but what is known currently is that there were serious breakdowns that very well may have added to the body count.


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## Knight (Feb 25, 2018)

James said:


> Within seconds there is mass chaos with hundreds of kids adults running for their lives as well as classrooms going into lockdown. In this case the pos also set off a fire alarm to add to the chaos. With the limited number of officers that can respond within that 0 - 10 minute window the ability to control that perimeter is challenging to say the least, especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors.
> 
> 
> However, that's where you rely on the Active Shooter training that teachers and students receive. They help to control that mass panic and confusion while responding officers are inside hunting the pos down and getting information from witnesses they can broadcast out to other officers that are forming that perimeter.
> ...


Finally a post with some insight into what mass panic and confusion can do. The 0 - 10 minute window with panic and quoting you " especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors." 4 minutes is within that 0-10 you describe. 


For me whether it's one or 50 each life lost is a tragedy. Quantity seems to make so many posters far more upset. Peripheral issues like the guards wage & benefits do nothing to address the issue of the weapon the killer used. Mankind began with primitive weapons, over time more sofisticated means of killing was developed. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say if all guns were restricted/unavailable other means of mass murder wold be used by those wanting to kill enmasse. 


I do agree with Campy banning the sale of the ar-15 and similar assault weapons would probably be a good 1st. step to limiting this kind of mass murder. Limiting because I think if there is the thought process that makes it possible for someone to kill enmasse they will find another way.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

The challenges facing first responders in those initial seconds or minutes is huge.  

Just for an example I grew up in a small City of 18,000 people.  The High School that I attended was huge in comparison with over 2,500 students as it serviced a very large rural population.  

The local police department size was about 40 uniform members.  With those officers spread out on shifts, assigned to special duties like the detective branch or drugs, there were approx 6 uniforms assigned to a shift plus a supervisor.  Throw in sick leave, injuries, vacation, maternity leave for female members. that shift could be reduced to 3 or 4.

In an active shooter situation you would have about 4 officers that could attend within a couple of minutes.  

Their first objective is getting inside and challenging the shooter.  The perimeter for the most part would be left to teachers to control until neighboring departments could arrive to establish the perimeter.  Within that 0 -10 minute window you "might" on a good day have 4 more to do that.

Certainly larger municipalities would have more resources to draw upon, but each situation is unique with their resources and response times.

It would be great to have a platoon of officers dedicated to every soft target but I don't think the taxpayer would be in agreement.

One thing that is certain however is that the primary goal is always to enter, engage, and stop the pos.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school

Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.


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## Knight (Feb 25, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.
> 
> https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school
> 
> Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.


The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?


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## KingsX (Feb 25, 2018)

Knight said:


> The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?




Florida Rep Hager said today that the call for the governor to remove sheriff Israel is growing.


*Lawmaker asks Gov. Scott to remove Broward Sheriff Scott Israel after Parkland shooting*


" BOCA RATON, Fla. (CBS12)  

*Rep. Bill Hager (Boca Raton), the chairman of the Florida House of Justice Appropriations, has called on Gov. Rick Scott to remove Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel - a power the governor has under Florida law - from his post for neglect of duty and incompetence in regards to the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.*

In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

more at link

http://cbs12.com/news/local/lawmake...-sheriff-scott-israel-after-parkland-shooting


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

Knight said:


> The arriving county deputies, did they enter while the shooting was happening or after it stopped?



That article doesn't specify but judging by the tone of those involved there still could've been shots in the background/active shooting. They say the shooting was for 4 minutes. Some police arrived 2-3 minutes later by some reports. Also note those other deputies didn't even get closer to the building staying behind their cars which keeps my blood boiling. And the clock puncher was apparently there for just about the whole thing.

They said more precise information is forth coming with when the responding officers turn in their reports and radio traffic is analyzed which will help put some more precise times on the response, might even be shots in the background. They're probably analyzing student cell video as well.


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## SifuPhil (Feb 25, 2018)

I wonder if any of the LEOs on the scene were wearing body cameras?


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

Technology will be able or should be able to pinpoint a lot of information.  My former department began putting GPS transponders on all patrol vehicles a few years ago.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2018)

" especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."

This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.


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## Camper6 (Feb 25, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> " especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."
> 
> This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.



So what is to stop the shooter from getting a school uniform.? Not a solution at all.

The solution in my eyes?  A barb wired fence all around the school like Guantanamo.  After all the schools are prisons now.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> So what is to stop the shooter from getting a school uniform.? Not a solution at all.
> 
> The solution in my eyes?  A barb wired fence all around the school like Guantanamo.  After all the schools are prisons now.



I've been tricked a couple of times in my life but some might stand out.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 25, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> As pointed out engaging the shooter is priority number one. Most police probably understand this including the local police department and other deputies. People & pundits are not the only ones questioning the deputies that did not enter while the shooting was still going on. The local police department of Coral Springs wondered why their officers were going in after the shooter while already present sheriffs deputies stayed outside.
> 
> https://www.click2houston.com/news/...some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school
> 
> Law enforcement colleagues and professionals are questioning those deputies for not entering. It should be noted new arriving county deputies also went into the building along with Coral Springs and Sunrise police. So law enforcement from three different organizations entered while 4 county deputies stayed outside-that is a training and or leadership issue even if it's not providing enough or adequate reminders and/or training that during an active shooter situation you go in.



I doubt that any training and/or leadership could have forced Peterson and his 3 fellow deputies to do what they were hired to do.

Part of the problem with elected sheriffs is that a newly elected sheriff is stuck with the people who were hired before s/he took the job. I don't know about the other 3, but Peterson had been there much longer than the current sheriff who couldn't fire him for being a clock-puncher. Many of us who spent years working saw the lengths to which clock-punchers will go to keep the jobs they aren't fit to perform.


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## todalake (Feb 25, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> " especially if the shooter can easily mix in and there is a lack of physical descriptors."
> 
> This idea about the shooter easily mixing in with the students hit me between the eyes as a serious problem. In Australia, should this ever happen, the police would have a distinct advantage. All students in private and public schools are easily identified by their school uniforms. Any shooters would be easily identified from a distance.


  The shooter is the one with the *GUN*!     If deputy would have went in right away he would of seen that,  or the shooter would of dropped the gun and blended in.   Either way killing of innocent students would have stopped


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I totally agree. I posted on another thread about this that putting this dud in that position shows how little priority the sheriff's department gave to school security.



I've worked veteran cops over the years that were top notch, no yellow stripe and common sense and with younger guys that were chicken sh*t with zero common sense that could start a fight with themselves in a phone booth. 

There is a host of psychological testing before you get hired but some still get through the net.  Not sure what the answer is or how to weed them out but the problem with policing as with most occupations is once you make it through probation you are almost bullet proof when it comes to getting canned.


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## Stormy (Feb 25, 2018)

911 said:


> As a sworn police officer to uphold the law and protect the people, I must enter the building. That does not mean that I can't take a moment to put on my vest. Some body armor is better than none. As I enter the building, I will attempt to locate the shooter (s) and slowly make my way towards where the shooting is coming from. Once I locate the shooter, my goal then will be to take him down. All the while, I will remain in touch with my back ups that are on the way, so that they have some idea of the situation upon their arrival.


That's good to hear 911 and that's the way it should be. We are thankful for officers like you and there would be more breathing students and staff if police like you were on scene instead of the cowards who were there and were too afraid to take action and do their jobs


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 25, 2018)

James said:


> I've worked veteran cops over the years that were top notch, no yellow stripe and common sense and with younger guys that were chicken sh*t with zero common sense that could start a fight with themselves in a phone booth.
> 
> There is a host of psychological testing before you get hired but some still get through the net.  Not sure what the answer is or how to weed them out but the problem with policing as with most occupations is once you make it through probation you are almost bullet proof when it comes to getting canned.



Many people become adept at staying under the radar. They never get in trouble, never get noticed. They're usually mediocre employees who accomplish nothing and don't want to.


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## James (Feb 25, 2018)

:iagree:


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> So what is to stop the shooter from getting a school uniform.? Not a solution at all.
> 
> The solution in my eyes?  A barb wired fence all around the school like Guantanamo.  After all the schools are prisons now.


Nothing really, and if an ex student, probably easy to do but it is another hurdle for the shooter.

Your solution and description of schools is a very jaundiced one. I hope you were being ironic.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2018)

todalake said:


> The shooter is the one with the *GUN*!     If deputy would have went in right away he would of seen that,  or the shooter would of dropped the gun and blended in.   Either way killing of innocent students would have stopped



Then best not to let him get one in the first place.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 25, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I doubt that any training and/or leadership could have forced Peterson and his 3 fellow deputies to do what they were hired to do.
> 
> Part of the problem with elected sheriffs is that a newly elected sheriff is stuck with the people who were hired before s/he took the job. I don't know about the other 3, but Peterson had been there much longer than the current sheriff who couldn't fire him for being a clock-puncher. Many of us who spent years working saw the lengths to which clock-punchers will go to keep the jobs they aren't fit to perform.



Not only do you have the clock punchers going out of their way to do nothing yet keep their job is the management that doesn't have the will to fire them and will frequently try to 'hide' an employee simply to keep them out of the way. I'm wondering if this deputy got school resource officer because they didn't want him in a patrol car or a specialty unit. I guess someone assumed he could handle juvenile delinquents etc. Also if this deputy knew the right politicians, commanders, supervisors etc I guess he would have no problem keeping his job in combination with FOP threats/action.


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## Knight (Feb 26, 2018)

> todalake postQuote"The shooter is the one with the GUN! If deputy would have went in right away he would of seen that, or the shooter would of dropped the gun and blended in. Either way killing of innocent students would have stopped."



And how do you know this?He could have been instantly shot going in. Without being there in the moment speculation is all that is possible by people like us sitting safely in our homes typing. I tend to look beyond wages, woulda, coulda, shoulda, and see the police officer as a person instantly in a situation that he has never faced in his life. I don't know what his training consisted of, or why he and the other 3 police officers took the precautions they did. I can speculate it could have been part of their training. What I do know is the SHOOTER is responsible.  It seems to me quantity is what matters to you. For me even one is tradgic. I don't place blame anywhere but on the shooter. Unlike you I can't state as fact he would have ended the shooting. I can speculate he would have instantly been killed adding to the death toll.


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## 911 (Feb 26, 2018)

*"In his letter to the governor on Saturday, Hager said that various media outlets reported that the School Resource Officer, Scot Peterson, and three deputies under Sheriff Israel's command "were on campus at the time of the attack and chose to take cover themselves rather than stepping up to protect our students."

*I don't know if this is true, but if it is, the idea of these officers taking cover instead of making an effort to get to the shooter about half sickens me.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 26, 2018)

The coward deputy Peterson who did not go in now says he thought the shooting was outside the building and was following that protocol.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-he-coward-during-school-shooting/373385002/

Yet newly arriving police from different departments knew to go inside.


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## James (Feb 26, 2018)

Trying to explain away his cowardice.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 26, 2018)

Alot of this is coming from a lawyer but apparently that deputy thought the initial shots were fire crackers and wasn't until another set of shots he realized they were gun shots and took what he thought was the best action. 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...-shooting-peterson-lawyer-20180226-story.html


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## 911 (Feb 26, 2018)

When I got to the school here in PA where the seven little Amish girls were killed, first thing out of my car, I unholstered my .45 and waited for the Trooper in charge to give me a signal of what he wanted me to do. He motioned for me to move up to the schoolhouse and get under a window. (By then, I had also grabbed my shotgun.) Then, he motioned for me and another Trooper to carefully take a peak in the window. I really could not see much and especially not the shooter.

When the Sgt. arrived, he tried talking to the shooter (Charles Roberts) using his car’s speaker, but Roberts kept yelling back that he wanted us to leave. Shortly after the exchange of words, the shooting began and we were ordered to rush the door and get inside. Just that quick, he had shot and killed the 7 little girls and himself. I know that it didn’t take a full minute for us to get inside. I was the second man through the door and at that moment, I saw the worse day of my life appear before me.

After all of the clamor was over, I was still very upset. The doctor at the scene gave a couple of us Troopers a shot of something to help us relax, but it really didn’t help much. For days, I kept asking myself what else could we have done to prevent that what had happened. I just couldn’t help thinking that there had to be something else that we could have done. 

It was like having a really bad nightmare that never ends.


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## RadishRose (Feb 26, 2018)

911, I imagine it to be like war scenes. I have no doubt many of our homeless veterans could never cope with life after seeing what they saw , what all combatants and police officers have seen, like what you saw. 

I had an uncle who was in WW2 toward the end, the Nazi's were sending in terrified boys, children really. Many years later he would sit on the porch and cry sometimes....said they would shout at the kids, "go back, go back, kinder" but they kept coming and were killed.

I don't think *all* police or *all* military personnel can really process what they have to see and do.


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## Pete (Feb 26, 2018)

Don M. said:


> "Political Correctness" has replaced Common Sense



Don all I can say is "AMEN" to your comment about political correctness and common sense. 

I have written two blog postings about the school shootings and have a third ready to publish tomorrow
you might find them interesting and along the same lines as what you were thinking. As far as the school
security officer... I found out when I was in the Army in 64 that not everyone is equipped to run towards the fire...


https://kl1hbalaska.wordpress.com/2018/02/23/the-florida-school-shooting-closing-pandoras-box/


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## rgp (Feb 26, 2018)

Too 911...

 First, thank you for all your service, past & future.

 Second, I have never been an officer, nor received any such training. As such I am not qualified to judge. I @ 68 yrs am however able to assess folks in general. It is my true belief that we all will react differently in varying situations . I have no idea what went through that officer's / those officer's minds, at that precise moment . I choose to believe that he/they , in the noise / confusion / enormity of the situation. Tried their best to assess the situation the best that they could. And perhaps just failed to do their absolute best at the precise second. 

It is very easy for those of us that have no experience doing that job to sit back and say  well they should'a/could'a...And I believe that it is perhaps perplexing for those of you in the profession to wonder why things were done or not done as they were

I guarantee you that the next time there is an officer involved shooting, where the officer reacts quickly & kills a 'teen' / young person ? The first cries we will hear will be, he should'a paused, he didn't have to kill him, etc .

{MY} bottom line is simply that I blame the shooter, and no one else.


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## Don M. (Feb 26, 2018)

Pete said:


> Don all I can say is "AMEN" to your comment about political correctness and common sense.
> 
> https://kl1hbalaska.wordpress.com/2018/02/23/the-florida-school-shooting-closing-pandoras-box/



As "Pete" says, in this blog, it is going to take multiple different approaches to resolve these mass shootings...there is NO one solution.  Mental health reporting and treatment has gone to pot in recent decades.  The mentally ill Used to be sent to mental health hospitals...Insane asylums, if you will....and treated for weeks or months until they were deemed fit to return to society.  Now, all they get is a meeting with some psychiatrist who probably does little more than put them on some Mind Altering drug.  No one wants to "stigmatize" these people by labeling them as mentally ill...that would Violate their Rights.  Yet, everyone of these recent lunatics has had a long history of mental issues.  Then, to boot...since no one wants to "label" these misfits, they are not even entered into the federal database that would prohibit their purchase/ownership of firearms.  It's a wonder we don't have more of these tragedies occurring.     

On top of that, with all the bad publicity the police have received in recent years, it's no wonder that many of them are afraid to act quickly, for fear they will be Smeared all over the media if they make a mistake.  Things like this Black Lives Matter movement have probably forced many police to Second Guess any moves they might make when faced with a potentially deadly situation.  

More and more, I am glad we live in the boondocks...the cities are becoming a real mess.


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## James (Feb 26, 2018)

The longer I was a cop, the more I came to dislike people.

As 911 can no doubt attest to.


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## rgp (Feb 26, 2018)

I worked for 30 yrs in a 'behind the scenes job' directly involved with the police. Over the years most-all of my friends were officers..now retired. To a man...they all say the same thing.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 26, 2018)

James said:


> The longer I was a cop, the more I came to dislike people.
> 
> As 911 can no doubt attest to.



I'm sure that's true. That also seems to be true of any occupation that requires dealing with people who are highly stressed.


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## HipGnosis (Feb 26, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Then best not to let him get one in the first place.


If not a gun, then some other weapon, or an object turned into a weapon (ala the twin towers).
So we have to stop the person - either from the sort of childhood that fosters such an act, or stop the parents from procreating.


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## Warrigal (Feb 26, 2018)

That's true and the latest trend is to drive a van at speed down a crowded pedestrian mall or footpath. However since that has happened a couple of times the authorities have thought out ways to limit such opportunities using bollards and strategically parked vehicles to protect crowds anticipated at known events such as NYE or festivals.

That's the easy bit but how do you protect against a lone marksman high up in a building overlooking an outdoor concert?
It is also hard to protect against suicide bombers. However guns, ammunition and bomb making materials can be strictly regulated and police can follow up suspicious stockpiling of such items. That is, if the population is willing to let them.


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## James (Feb 26, 2018)

The hardening of soft targets is a never ending game of cat and mouse.  When an attack takes place and measures are put in place to stop that, then they will come up with something else.  

Other than living our lives out in fortified camps I doubt if the cycle will ever stop.

Situational awareness is one of your greatest safety tools. 

 You need to be constantly aware of your surroundings. Identify areas that will provide safety/cover or an exit, whether that's a concert, a movie or shopping at a mall.  That goes for driving as well.  Always have an exit and don't be afraid of jumping a curb to take it.  Don't place yourself in situations that will leave you vulnerable.

If you do "carry" something for protection then make sure that you are competent with that tool and that you practice with it on an ongoing basis and be well aware of your limitations.

Trust your instincts. If something doesn't "feel" right, and makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up or makes your adrenalin start pumping, then get out of there.  Instincts have saved countless numbers of lives and they certainly have saved me.

Rehearse in your mind, what would I do if.  Having no plan is not a plan.

Travel in pairs if you can.  Two sets of eyes and ears are better than one, as long as the other person is on the same page.

Anyways, just a couple of hints.  Preparedness is not paranoia especially given the World in which we live in today.


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 26, 2018)

I would think the most important factor is staying away from crowds. It only makes sense that someone who wants to make the maximum impact is going to attack a crowd.


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## James (Feb 26, 2018)

Maximum body count is always a goal of any kind of terror. Crowds are a favourite and you can avoid some of those but sometimes that is difficult, like shopping at Christmas or enjoying the things you like to do like going to theatres or a meal out.  

Terror is meant to shock & awe and stop people from enjoying their freedoms.  This is not how we should live, although I'm sure some people do this now.  Situational awareness is a tool you can use so that you can still enjoy those things that you like to do or want to do with a degree of confidence.

Just little things can help.  For example my Children and wife were notorious for being out and about wearing those ear buds and listening to music, or driving with the music cranked up.

Get rid of the ear buds, stop staring at the phone.  Turn down the music and leave your car window down a hair.  You'd be surprised at how much sound is muffled with the windows shut right and the music turned up even  a little bit.

If I go somewhere new, like a store or even a coffee shop, I'll take a minute to look around and find the exits.  Washrooms are the last place to flee to as you are trapped.  For the most part there are no exit points in washrooms and your only exit is back the way you came from, which might not be an option at which point you are trapped. Kitchens in restaurants can have more than one exit point so know where the employee door is for the kitchen.

If I go to a restaurant I try not to sit at the very front or the very back.  I choose somewhere in the middle if possible because it affords me the greatest number of options to exit.  I also avoid, if I can, sitting near those big plate glass windows for obvious reasons.

After awhile this stuff just becomes second nature.


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## Giantsfan1954 (Feb 27, 2018)

Barney Fide was a deputy.


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## dpwspringer (Feb 27, 2018)

James said:


> The hardening of soft targets is a never ending game of cat and mouse.  When an attack takes place and measures are put in place to stop that, then they will come up with something else.
> 
> Other than living our lives out in fortified camps I doubt if the cycle will ever stop.
> 
> ...


As an aside, this reminds me of what I found when I looked into what it took to "coyote proof" my yard after I lost a small pet (maybe or maybe not to coyotes). You needed 2 foot of concrete underneath the fence. Oh and the fence had to be incredible to guarantee coyotes could not vault, jump, or climb over it. It seemed like I would have to build something that made me think I would be living in a prison of sorts to keep them out. They are clever, wily, and talented.


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## Olivia (Feb 27, 2018)

James said:


> Maximum body count is always a goal of any kind of terror. Crowds are a favourite and you can avoid some of those but sometimes that is difficult, like shopping at Christmas or enjoying the things you like to do like going to theatres or a meal out.
> 
> Terror is meant to shock & awe and stop people from enjoying their freedoms.  This is not how we should live, although I'm sure some people do this now.  Situational awareness is a tool you can use so that you can still enjoy those things that you like to do or want to do with a degree of confidence.
> 
> ...



OMG, I can't live that way. Shoot me already.


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## James (Feb 27, 2018)

That's the world in which we live.  Make no mistake you probably have better odds winning the Powerball than getting gunned down, but taking the time of being aware of your surroundings and not making yourself vulnerable {as much as you can} to being the victim of any crime, be it this, a mugging, carjacking, theft, etc should always be a part of your routine.

For example, I reside in a rural area where break ins abound and the police response or proactive patrols can be haphazard.  Not putting them down that's just the way it is with the resources they have.  I keep my bushes cut down so they don't block the view of windows or entry points from the road.  We have a double garage and two cars...ones a paperweight, so I make sure one is in the driveway and I'll move it around so it doesn't look like a yard ornament.

Interior lights on variable timers so it doesn't look like they're on timers.  Locks, I have good door locks but you want to stop them before they get to your door.

Yard lights that are dusk to dawn, not a fan of motion lights.  Know your neighbors or at least one.  Neighbor down the road watches my place and I watch him.  He knows my routine and I know his so its obvious if something is out of whack and needs some attention.

Like I've said there's lots of small things you can do to lessen your chances of being a victim of crime before it happens.


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## rgp (Feb 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> OMG, I can't live that way. Shoot me already.




 You'll adapt...you'll have too......


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## IKE (Feb 27, 2018)

Good tips in your last two posts James.

I *always *conceal carry when I leave home and I'm very aware of my surroundings when I'm out.

I always sit facing the door when dinning out and I make a mental note of where the exits are. I like to sit close to a exit but I don't want one directly behind me because of the remote possibility that a past employee may still have a key and barge in set on doing harm.

 I also always sit at a table and never in a booth when out because I feel it takes a few extra seconds to worm out of a booth quickly *if* a *situation* arises......I'm also very watchful in crowded parking lots coming to and from my vehicle.

When at home or out I try to do everything in my power to keep from being referred to as the *"D*eceased *V*ictim*"* on the 5 o'clock evening news.


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## James (Feb 27, 2018)

:goodjob:


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## Olivia (Feb 27, 2018)

Skip, responded to wrong post.


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## Olivia (Feb 27, 2018)

rgp said:


> You'll adapt...you'll have too......



Okay, I'm not a fool. I keep my doors locked all the time. I don't park in isolated areas in the parking lot. I wear an across-the body purse (even though that could be dangerous), I stay aware of my surroundings, a lot of things like that. But if I have to start telling a hostess that no I can't sit at a certain table because I'm more apt to get killed in a mass shooting there, I give up!


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## James (Feb 27, 2018)

Not just a mass shooting.  I don't know how many times this year I've seen seniors driving their cars through the windows or doors of restaurants.   Around here it seems to be open season on restaurants by seniors.


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## Warrigal (Feb 27, 2018)

I scan the venues I find myself in too but all I am concerned about is "where are the fire exits".


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## rgp (Feb 27, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Okay, I'm not a fool. I keep my doors locked all the time. I don't park in isolated areas in the parking lot. I wear an across-the body purse (even though that could be dangerous), I stay aware of my surroundings, a lot of things like that. But if I have to start telling a hostess that no I can't sit at a certain table because I'm more apt to get killed in a mass shooting there, I give up!




  OK, ya give up..then what ?


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## Smiling Jane (Feb 27, 2018)

I got shot in a mugging. Trust me, I would be happy to follow a few simple guidelines to keep from being shot again.


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## Olivia (Feb 27, 2018)

rgp said:


> OK, ya give up..then what ?



Then what? Dig a hole and jump in. That's what. :nodisturb:


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## Knight (Feb 28, 2018)

There is a common thread in all the mass shootings. The type of gun used and the stock piling of ammo. 


Well duh! No mystery or surprise there right.


The question that comes to mind for me is why parents, significant others dont know that this is taking place. Then social media posting go un noticed. Doesn't it seem strange that those that are closest to a person with guns & a stock pile of ammo, socially mal adapted aren't being pro active in prevention of tragedy?


The expectation for police to do something beforehand is insane. When police were being pro active like stop & frisk in NYC & numerous  media stories about police pro active approach to crime reduction there was a $hit storm of stories about civil rights being abused. Unless and until those closest to the source of this madness begin to be proactive, the police will have to do the only thing they can which is react to what is happening.


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## dpwspringer (Mar 1, 2018)

Knight said:


> The expectation for police to do something beforehand is insane. When police were being pro active like stop & frisk in NYC & numerous  media stories about police pro active approach to crime reduction there was a $hit storm of stories about civil rights being abused. Unless and until those closest to the source of this madness begin to be proactive, the police will have to do the only thing they can which is react to what is happening.


The stop & frisk in NYC worked well as best I recall from news stories. What is interesting about the proactive issue is that in some cases it seems to be okay and in others not so much. We put up with it at airports, government buildings, etc and it is often a pia... a pia that seems acceptable after certain incidents show our vulnerability. There are tradeoffs between freedom and security.


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## James (Mar 1, 2018)

They banned this from here just a out a year ago.  It wasn't a stop and frisk, it was just a stop to find out who you were and what you were doing in a high crime area at 2am.

We used to call it "street checks" and it was a vital part of pro active policing, collecting intelligence, linking crimes to people, preventing crime in the first place.

It was apparently interfering with rights.


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## Robusta (Mar 1, 2018)

James said:


> They banned this from here just a out a year ago.  It wasn't a stop and frisk, it was just a stop to find out who you were and what you were doing in a high crime area at 2am.
> 
> We used to call it "street checks" and it was a vital part of pro active policing, collecting intelligence, linking crimes to people, preventing crime in the first place.
> 
> It was apparently interfering with rights.



I don't know Canadas Constitution. In the United States we have the right to move about freely, the right to congregrate and associate, We are assumed innocent at all times,before a conviction.  We also have a right against unreasonable serch and seizure and the right not to self incriminate.

In a perfect world an officer would see three hooligans stop frisk them,intimidate them enough that whatever nefarious act they were planning would be forgotten,crime would be averted and the world would be a wonderful place.


In practice an officer would see three black guys stop them and start questioning. No violation, no suspicion, no cause. 
Next the disingenuous excuse,"FOR MY SAFETY", the three black guy are asked if the have any weapons or drugs and ordered to empty their pockets.  Not knowing any better, or more likely not wanting to be roughed up or even worse they comply.  This forces the guys to incriminate themselves voluntarily when a pocket  knife or some pot is exposed. 

The policy was probably conceived with nothing but good thoughts, but as with any thing else it was perverted mainly became a way to harass and intimidates minorities.  

Was it effective in lowering crime? Probably yes, but it was a shortcut, that was and is ripe with abuse and needed to be reigned in.


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## James (Mar 1, 2018)

There was always the potential for abuse and misuse however instead of addressing those actual and confirmed cases of abuse (which were found to be few and far between) we had, imho, a knee jerk reaction.

It was a great tool.

Its funny that when a police officer is alleged to have breached a duty or someone's rights then we are all branded as being of like mind and guilty of doing the same and are the recipients of knee jerk reactions.

When a doctor, lawyer, teacher, politician has done the same, then it's a one off or an "isolated" case.


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## hearlady (Mar 1, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> I got shot in a mugging. Trust me, I would be happy to follow a few simple guidelines to keep from being shot again.


Geez, sorry!


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## WhatInThe (Mar 2, 2018)

A sheriff's department captain gave the order to set up a perimeter rather than pursuing the shooter inside. That goes against current policy/practice and training per the sheriff.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-florida-shooting-bso-perimeter-20180302-story.html


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## 911 (Mar 3, 2018)

My final word on this subject is that upon arrival to the site of a sniper or an unknown shooter, the job of a policeman is to locate and eliminate the threat.


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## James (Mar 3, 2018)

911 said:


> My final word on this subject is that upon arrival to the site of a sniper or an unknown shooter, the job of a policeman is to locate and eliminate the threat.



Amen


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