# The Vietnam War



## FastTrax (Nov 7, 2020)

www.bygonely.com/vietnam-war/

www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war

www.americanhistoryprojects.com/downloads/vietnam.htm

www.time.com/vietnam-photos/

www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/03/the-vietnam-war-part-i-early-years-and-escalation/389054/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


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## Aunt Marg (Nov 7, 2020)




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## Aunt Marg (Nov 7, 2020)

Breaks my heart... so many were just kids.


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## Sassycakes (Nov 7, 2020)

*Brings back such sad memories from friends we lost during that war. Thankfully my husband was in the Navy and didn't serve in Vietnam.  *


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## Pinky (Nov 7, 2020)

My beautiful friend couldn't live with his memories, once home. I won't go into how he chose to leave this earth. I'm sure it is a common story. What a loss.


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## needshave (Nov 7, 2020)

A friend of mine passed earlier from a disease generated from agent orange exposure while in Vietnam. On Tuesday, November 09, there is full military ceremony for his interment in Arlington National In DC. A very Sad time.


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## Damaged Goods (Nov 7, 2020)

Spit on and called "baby killers" when you came home back then, and today it's "Thank you for your service" when you wear your ball cap with the appropriate insignia at the grocery store.

Go figure.


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## Don M. (Nov 7, 2020)

I spent 1967 at Takhli AFB in Thailand.  I was sure glad that I was in the AF, instead of the Army or Marines.  We lost several F105's and pilots during that year, and it was amazing to see the damage that some of the aircraft had sustained, yet managed to get back to the base. 

My worst memory was one day when a young 1st Lt. stopped by the shop to ask a couple of questions about the weapons control system.  He was getting ready to go on his 1st mission the next day.  He was a great guy, and we had a nice conversation.  A few days later, I found out that he was shot down on his 1st mission.


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## PamfromTx (Nov 7, 2020)

I, for one will never forget the sacrifices that these brave men/women made for our freedom.  We lost several young men who served in the Vietnam War from my hometown and they are never forgotten.


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## PamfromTx (Nov 7, 2020)

Don M. said:


> I spent 1967 at Takhli AFB in Thailand.  I was sure glad that I was in the AF, instead of the Army or Marines.  We lost several F105's and pilots during that year, and it was amazing to see the damage that some of the aircraft had sustained, yet managed to get back to the base.
> 
> My worst memory was one day when a young 1st Lt. stopped by the shop to ask a couple of questions about the weapons control system.  He was getting ready to go on his 1st mission the next day.  He was a great guy, and we had a nice conversation.  A few days later, I found out that he was shot down on his 1st mission.


One of my uncles served in Thailand as well with the Air Force.


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## cdestroyer (Nov 8, 2020)

we hauled cargo, food, pop, booze, oxygen tanks, cement blocks, pig food, chicken wire and ammunition of various kinds, small arms .38, .45, 7.62nato, 40mm and larger for the howitzers, the 155 which is a two piece type of ammo consisting of the shell and the powder case....


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## Don M. (Nov 8, 2020)

We were in Washington, DC, a few years ago, and visited the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.  4 of my old high school mates are listed and honored on that wall.


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## squatting dog (Nov 8, 2020)

I sometimes wonder if it's just me.   
I haven't been able to bring myself to visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial wall yet. Kind of like picking an old scab that just won't heal.


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## Damaged Goods (Nov 8, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> I sometimes wonder if it's just me.
> I haven't been able to bring myself to visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial wall yet. Kind of like picking an old scab that just won't heal.



Seems that most who do visit it turn around with moisture running down their faces.  

Understandable.

All those names!


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## Tish (Nov 8, 2020)

My Husband may he rest in peace served in Nam.
To all of you, Thank you for your service.


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## Mat (Nov 8, 2020)

The place has changed so much over the course of 50 years.  Most of the Delta in the 60 and 70s was all wetlands and rivers and canals, but today it is wall to wall with people and new dwellings.  The rice fields are full and the country is thriving but there is still that overload looking over your shoulder and you don't say anything about them or you might disappear one night.  It is strange because the people in charge are not a large group but a very small select group who are protected by the military.  A very large bridge was built coming over the Mekong river into Can Tho our old airfield and Group and Battalion Headquarters.  It is nothing but a grown over trace now which can still be seen if you happened to fly over it everyday for 3 years.  You can see the barracks foundation outlines and the runway still.  My airfield 40 miles away is still there with the runway intact, but all the building were completely torn down and new building built.  No sign of any military at all or planes, they have nothing there but do not allow you to come into the place.  

This movie was TET 68 and the enemy surrounded us from every side but same as Saigon and other good bases we killed more of them than us. The town of Soc Trang was occupied across the second bridge but was pounded by airstrikes and artillery and finally cleared after a lot of destruction.  You couldn't take off from either end of the runway but had to get airborne and just make a hard turn left or right and get some altitude or you would be shot.  They had 122mm rockets and also 51 caliber machine guns on the final leg entrance.  We lost one ship with all 4 crewmen killed and it was only a stones throw from the end of the runway in a winding canal that runs up into Cambodia, named The Tiger Tail. 
The audio of the movie was by accident and the person just happened to be making a audio tape to send home when the first attack came in.


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## FastTrax (Nov 8, 2020)

Mat said:


> The place has changed so much over the course of 50 years.  Most of the Delta in the 60 and 70s was all wetlands and rivers and canals, but today it is wall to wall with people and new dwellings.  The rice fields are full and the country is thriving but there is still that overload looking over your shoulder and you don't say anything about them or you might disappear one night.  It is strange because the people in charge are not a large group but a very small select group who are protected by the military.  A very large bridge was built coming over the Mekong river into Can Tho our old airfield and Group and Battalion Headquarters.  It is nothing but a grown over trace now which can still be seen if you happened to fly over it everyday for 3 years.  You can see the barracks foundation outlines and the runway still.  My airfield 40 miles away is still there with the runway intact, but all the building were completely torn down and new building built.  No sign of any military at all or planes, they have nothing there but do not allow you to come into the place.
> 
> This movie was TET 68 and the enemy surrounded us from every side but same as Saigon and other good bases we killed more of them than us. The town of Soc Trang was occupied across the second bridge but was pounded by airstrikes and artillery and finally cleared after a lot of destruction.  You couldn't take off from either end of the runway but had to get airborne and just make a hard turn left or right and get some altitude or you would be shot.  They had 122mm rockets and also 51 caliber machine guns on the final leg entrance.  We lost one ship with all 4 crewmen killed and it was only a stones throw from the end of the runway in a winding canal that runs up into Cambodia, named The Tiger Tail.
> The audio of the movie was by accident and the person just happened to be making a audio tape to send home when the first attack came in.



WOW!!!!! My GOD you must've dug deep down to find the strength to carry on day after day well knowing that death awaited you day after day under the canopy. I do commend you.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 9, 2020)

I'm a Civil War nut,. I watch WWI and WWII documentaries. While I was never in Vietnam, I was in the U.S. Navy 68-72. I just can't watch anything about that war.


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## 911 (Nov 9, 2020)

Some really bad memories looking at the pictures, but thanks for posting. I think that for some of us that were there, we need to think back and remember what we did over there, but most importantly, we need to remember those that didn't come back with us.
I think every man and woman that was over there left a little piece of themselves there. I seldom have any dreams about being over there and for that, I am thankful.


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## peramangkelder (Nov 9, 2020)

'Late afternoon August 18, 1966 South Vietnam – for three and a half hours, in the pouring rain, amid the mud and shattered trees of a rubber plantation called Long Tan, Major Harry Smith and his dispersed company of 108 young and mostly inexperienced Australian and New Zealand soldiers are fighting for their lives, holding off an overwhelming enemy force of 2,500 battle-hardened Viet Cong and North Vietnamese soldiers. With their ammunition running out, their casualties mounting and the enemy massing for a final assault, each man begins to search for the strength to triumph over an uncertain future with honour, decency and courage.'
This is a very good movie


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## peramangkelder (Nov 9, 2020)

I had not long started working when the ANZACS were in Vietnam
When they started coming home our Servicemen and Women were treated so poorly
They were spat on and had paint thrown at them and I remember seeing one of these in Adelaide 
I looked on in horror as these brave men and women were treated like something on the sole of your shoe
My grandmother helped a lot of returned servicemen at a Returned Services League Hospital in Adelaide
because so many men and women were suffering PTSD or Battle Fatigue they could barely function


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## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> 'Late afternoon August 18, 1966 South Vietnam – for three and a half hours, in the pouring rain, amid the mud and shattered trees of a rubber plantation called Long Tan, Major Harry Smith and his dispersed company of 108 young and mostly inexperienced Australian and New Zealand soldiers are fighting for their lives, holding off an overwhelming enemy force of 2,500 battle-hardened Viet Cong and North Vietnamese soldiers. With their ammunition running out, their casualties mounting and the enemy massing for a final assault, each man begins to search for the strength to triumph over an uncertain future with honour, decency and courage.'
> This is a very good movie





peramangkelder said:


> I had not long started working when the ANZACS were in Vietnam
> When they started coming home our Servicemen and Women were treated so poorly
> They were spat on and had paint thrown at them and I remember seeing one of these in Adelaide
> I looked on in horror as these brave men and women were treated like something on the sole of your shoe
> ...



All wars are bad but the Vietnam war just seemed particularly cruel to everyone except the profiteers.


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## peramangkelder (Nov 9, 2020)

There was a popular song here called 'Horror Movie' by Skykooks
They sang about The Horror Movie and part of the chorus goes
'Horror movie, it's the six-thirty news
Horror movie, it's the six-thirty news'
We often dreaded turning on the TV


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## FastTrax (Nov 9, 2020)

It took a very long time for the lie of "Two hundred and thirty six Vietcong soldiers were killed and American casualties were light" to finally be revealed for the disinformation campaign perpetrated on the world.


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## 911 (Nov 10, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> It took a very long time for the lie of "Two hundred and thirty six Vietcong soldiers were killed and American casualties were light" to finally be revealed for the disinformation campaign perpetrated on the world.


To this day, I would like to hear Lt. Calley's version of what happened during the My Lai Massacre. Not that it would matter any to me, but I often wonder if what the government presented as evidence of his wrong doings, if it was all true. My reason is because as I read the stories surrounding this event, I learned that  a lot of the evidence presented was strictly hearsay testimony and even testimony from witnesses that reported on what they heard. A lot of unanswered questions for me to be able to put it to rest.


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## peramangkelder (Nov 10, 2020)

Huz has some friends who were 'Tunnel Rats' in Vietnam and they still suffer with P.T.S.D.


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## cdestroyer (Nov 11, 2020)

squattingdog, neither have I...It has been so long that it is hard to recall minutae of events, only the large overall memories can be recalled....I don't remember can tho or my tho or sa dec or the canals. I only remember the bases, how they looked. We were moored to a small aluminum pier at binh thuy for the night. It was to late in the day after making a cargo run farther up the river. Tomorrow we would proceed on down to nha be our main port.  I had gone up to the bridge to yack at the quarterdeck watch stander as I was bored sitting in comm central. We watched the kids in a river backwater catch fish. A flight of hueys came in to land at the base, when we heard a 'whump'. What the heck was that,we wondered. The first chopper sat down and 'whump' again only this time there was an explosion behind the main buildings. Holy smoke! somebody is lobbing mortar shells on the base. We sounded GQ turned on the bridge radios. 'whump' and the cases of beer and pop stacked over by the commissary blew up. Well damn there goes next weeks booze. An lst beached in front of us was dropping its rear anchor into a mike boat so they could drop it in the river and winch themselves of the beach. we pulled in all lines and headed down stream...Later report said the base had taken three hits and the hospital one or two...charlied has snuck onto an island in the middle of the river and his rounds had hit very precisely on the base??


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## squatting dog (Nov 11, 2020)

A legendary US Army tunnel rat . . .
"The instinct to survive is tremendous. That's all I did. I just tried to survive.” - John Baker, Vietnam veteran, tunnel rat, and Medal of Honor recipient
Born on October 30, 1945, in Davenport, Iowa, John F. Baker Jr. graduated from high school, enlisted in the Army, and in 1966 was sent to Vietnam.
Within weeks of arriving in country, the 5-foot-2, 105 pound soldier was fighting in the enemy-filled jungles of Vietnam with Company A, 2d Battalion, 27th Infantry, 25th Infantry Division.
On November 5, 1966, just days after his 21st birthday, Pfc. Baker, (he would soon be promoted to sergeant) was on a mission near Dau Tieng when his unit was suddenly hit by a massive enemy force.
"Our men were getting killed right and left," Baker recalled in an interview with the Library of Congress years later.
With the Viet Cong delivering a withering barrage of small arms, machine gun, and grenade fire against him and his men, Baker  “immediately moved to the head of the column, rescued a fallen buddy, and killed four enemy snipers.”
Blown to his feet seconds later by a grenade, the small but muscular Baker, now bleeding from shrapnel wounds to his arms and legs, jumped up and rushed towards the communist position. Over the next hour he single handedly killed countless VC, wiped out six enemy machine gun bunkers, and repeatedly risked his life to rescue seven more injured Americans.
"When you see your buddies get killed you sometimes you lose your mind,” he recalled. "You just have that moment that no matter who you are, you need to get in there and get 'em out.”
Recalling the engagement years later, Baker, who had trained to be an Olympic gymnast before enlisting in the Army, said, "At the end of the battle, a few of my comrades counted how many bodies I killed . . . I killed about 250 Vietcong."
For his "selfless heroism, indomitable fighting spirit, and extraordinary gallantry” that saved the lives of eight of his fellow soldiers and stopped the enemy attack, Baker was awarded the Medal of Honor.
During his time in Vietnam, Sgt. Baker also volunteered to be a “tunnel rat,” the name given to men who cleared enemy tunnels and retrieved communist bodies. Using only his pistol and flashlight, the seemingly fearless sergeant completed nearly 100 tunnel rat missions.
Describing the terrifying, serpentine mazes located throughout Vietnam, Baker said, "You had to crawl through 'em and sometimes they were two to three miles long, with trap doors. There were booby traps like snake pits, spider pits, bamboo pits, and scorpion pits. It was a really scary place.”
Today we pay tribute to MSgt. John Baker, his family, and all those who served, sacrificed, and died during the Vietnam War. We will never forget you.


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## Mat (Nov 14, 2020)




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## 911 (Nov 15, 2020)

We had just started coming out of a jungle and into a large clearing, which increased our vulnerability. There was elephant grass for acres in front of us. Our Lt. decided that we should go back a little deeper into the jungle and wait until dark before trying to get across this wide field of elephant grass.

We ate ‘c’ rats that evening and tried to get some sleep. We could hear artillery fire off into the distant. I tried to write a letter to home using what daylight was left. The next morning, I read it and decided to throw it away. Hell, I couldn’t even read it.

The Marine beside me fell fast asleep. I thought to myself, “I wished that I could do that.” I wanted some water, so I asked if anyone had some water to spare. The youngest man in our unit tossed me his bottle. I only took a few sips. Even water that was about 90 degrees tasted good. It was hot and humid. My clothes were soaked with sweat and I felt like a hog in the muck.

I decided to try to get some shuteye. I closed my eyes and like every other night that I was over there, I thought about me and my buddy out cruising the strip and checking out the ladies. Soon, I fell asleep.

Right after midnight, the Lt. decided it was time to make our way across the field of grass. I stumbled around getting my gear together and getting dressed. Soon, we were off. The Lt. had us set a wide line across the grass and to take big strides, but keep the line straight. Finally, we reached the other side. 

I’m not sure why I wrote this. It’s what came to my mind at the moment.


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## squatting dog (Nov 15, 2020)

911 said:


> We had just started coming out of a jungle and into a large clearing, which increased our vulnerability. There was elephant grass for acres in front of us. Our Lt. decided that we should go back a little deeper into the jungle and wait until dark before trying to get across this wide field of elephant grass.
> 
> We ate ‘c’ rats that evening and tried to get some sleep. We could hear artillery fire off into the distant. I tried to write a letter to home using what daylight was left. The next morning, I read it and decided to throw it away. Hell, I couldn’t even read it.
> 
> ...



It lives in us and just won't go away.


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## 911 (Nov 15, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> It lives in us and just won't go away.


You and I know that at any time something can trigger a memory. I can be reading a book, walking in a store, or just doing nothing and I will get a flashback.

I was watching the Veterans Day activities at Arlington on Wednesday and it brought back many memories. All of a sudden, I felt the need to talk to another veteran, so I called my friend from the Marines and now lives in Arkansas. We talked for a good hour.


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## squatting dog (Nov 15, 2020)

911 said:


> You and I know that at any time something can trigger a memory. I can be reading a book, walking in a store, or just doing nothing and I will get a flashback.
> 
> I was watching the Veterans Day activities at Arlington on Wednesday and it brought back many memories. All of a sudden, I felt the need to talk to another veteran, so I called my friend from the Marines and now lives in Arkansas. We talked for a good hour.



Absolutely. Heck, A few years back, I was watching the movie "More American Graffiti" and the beginning scene with the Huey's triggered nightmares the likes of which I hadn't had in years.   
For sure, whenever these episodes strike, you have to talk it out with another combat vet. I'm sorry, but nobody else will ever be able to comprehend what we all went through. 
Stay strong buddy.


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## Nathan (Nov 15, 2020)

cdestroyer said:


> we hauled cargo, food, pop, booze, oxygen tanks, cement blocks, pig food, chicken wire and ammunition of various kinds, small arms .38, .45, 7.62nato, 40mm and larger for the howitzers, the 155 which is a two piece type of ammo consisting of the shell and the powder case....


Being in the Army's "navy" we hauled construction material to Mekong destinations(Vihn Long, Long Xuyen, Can Tho etc), even PX goods(Can Tho) via landing craft(LCU).<--actual craft I served on.  We hauled ammo barges to....? up the Mekong on 65 ft. tugboats, all kinds of artillary and small arms ammo.  We had PBR escorts towards in front and rear, and a fixed wing overhead dropping artillary on the shore lines to keep snipers off our tails.  hauled jet fuel(JP4) up the Delta to Nam Can, to refuel the helicopter outposts, in a "Yankee" series coastal fuel tanker, the Y-100.


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## 911 (Nov 15, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Being in the Army's "navy" we hauled construction material to Mekong destinations(Vihn Long, Long Xuyen, Can Tho etc), even PX goods(Can Tho) via landing craft(LCU).<--actual craft I served on.  We hauled ammo barges to....? up the Mekong on 65 ft. tugboats, all kinds of artillary and small arms ammo.  We had PBR escorts towards in front and rear, and a fixed wing overhead dropping artillary on the shore lines to keep snipers off our tails.  hauled jet fuel(JP4) up the Delta to Nam Can, to refuel the helicopter outposts, in a "Yankee" series coastal fuel tanker, the Y-100.


I never figured out how people remembered all theses names. I remember landing in Chu Lai and patrolling along the Mekong and into some of the deltas. I also know we were driven in an APC to Bien Hoa and of course Saigon and Da Nang, but not much more than that without really giving it more thought. I did keep a small journal when I remembered to write in it and there were times when I would start to make an entry and couldn’t spell the name, so I would just scribble it out.


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## Nathan (Nov 15, 2020)

We traveled the route down the river from Saigon's deep water commercial port- Newport quite regularly.  The destinations I mentioned above, we visited one or more probably once a week.  I forgot to mentioned Vung Tau, another frequent port of call. It was considered to be an in-country R&R center, very nice city, gorgeous countryside. I remember taking an ox cart ride along a shore, so beautiful, for a bit I could forget I was in a combat zone(yea, maybe not a good idea to do for too long). It was said that the VC enjoyed R&Ring there too, never saw Vung Tau get hit, like Nha Be or Bien Hoa did while I was there.


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## FastTrax (Nov 15, 2020)

911 said:


> To this day, I would like to hear Lt. Calley's version of what happened during the My Lai Massacre. Not that it would matter any to me, but I often wonder if what the government presented as evidence of his wrong doings, if it was all true. My reason is because as I read the stories surrounding this event, I learned that  a lot of the evidence presented was strictly hearsay testimony and even testimony from witnesses that reported on what they heard. A lot of unanswered questions for me to be able to put it to rest.





Here ya go:





www.investigatingpower.org/my-lai-massacre/

www.studythepast.com/vbprojects/my_lai_massacre.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:My_Lai_Massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_(film)


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## 911 (Nov 15, 2020)

It’s all about staying alive. It’s surprising to me how nervous you are while looking for the bad guys and then how all of that nervousness goes away when the shooting starts. Now, it becomes an issue of “I want to go home alive and in one piece.”

My Lai is a well known engagement. Lt. Calley made a mess of things. I think President Nixon pardoned him. 

Thanks for the videos.


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## squatting dog (Nov 15, 2020)

911 said:


> I never figured out how people remembered all theses names. I remember landing in Chu Lai and patrolling along the Mekong and into some of the deltas. I also know we were driven in an APC to Bien Hoa and of course Saigon and Da Nang, but not much more than that without really giving it more thought. I did keep a small journal when I remembered to write in it and there were times when I would start to make an entry and couldn’t spell the name, so I would just scribble it out.


Same here. Never was much for names of villages or towns. I do however remember most of the fire bases I spent time at. Go figure.
Libby
Verna
Silver
Nancy
Mace
Blackhorse


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## FastTrax (Nov 15, 2020)

911 said:


> It’s all about staying alive. It’s surprising to me how nervous you are while looking for the bad guys and then how all of that nervousness goes away when the shooting starts. Now, it becomes an issue of “I want to go home alive and in one piece.”
> 
> My Lai is a well known engagement. Lt. Calley made a mess of things. I think President Nixon pardoned him.
> 
> Thanks for the videos.



No need for thanks as it's my pleasure. I think it's called anticipation. Sometimes you think they're out there and sometimes you know they're out there and you wish that you can prove they're out there and know exactly where they are so you can do what you came there for. Thanks for your service in the military and in law enforcement. GOD Bless.


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## Nathan (Nov 15, 2020)

cdestroyer said:


> We were moored to a small aluminum pier at binh thuy for the night. It was to late in the day after making a cargo run farther up the river. Tomorrow we would proceed on down to nha be our main port.


So, you guys got the "incoming" at Bình Thủy, and operated out of Nha Be?    That's like 8 miles down the river from where I was stationed.
I remember we used to barter PX supplies for diesel filters and stuff there, with the guys on that big maintenance ship.  The Army supply chain could get us a whole GM 6-71 engine, but not stuff like fuel filters and injectors.


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## Mat (Nov 15, 2020)




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## jerry old (Nov 15, 2020)

We stand for the National Anthem for those that cannot.


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## cdestroyer (Nov 16, 2020)

there were a couple of bases we were not allowed to go. the song ong doc area was to hot so we had to drop our cargo to the support lst anchored offshore. solid anchor/seafloat of the cau mau area was also a hot spot and we only went there with full pbr/huey gunship/ov10 bronco support. it is rather thrilling trying to unload ammunition when the base is under fire (not) and the usual 4 hour job takes 6 hours. It takes a long time to load/unload 325 tons of ammuniton. At most bases we would unload a dozen pallets and be off to the next base. rarely staying long in one place or we would anchor in the middle of the river and put antisapper lights around the ship and drop concussion grenades all night. During the last couple of months we stopped going up river in the daytime, it was just to dangerous so we ran the rivers at night using radar and bow watches.
It has been fifty years since, ,,,,,,,no


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## oldman (Nov 16, 2020)

911 said:


> We had just started coming out of a jungle and into a large clearing, which increased our vulnerability. There was elephant grass for acres in front of us. Our Lt. decided that we should go back a little deeper into the jungle and wait until dark before trying to get across this wide field of elephant grass.
> 
> We ate ‘c’ rats that evening and tried to get some sleep. We could hear artillery fire off into the distant. I tried to write a letter to home using what daylight was left. The next morning, I read it and decided to throw it away. Hell, I couldn’t even read it.
> 
> ...


That’s a really good story. I remember all that darn elephant grass. I sometimes hear the Hueys in my sleep and will suddenly wake up. 
I can still taste some of the c rations, especially the spaghetti and meatballs. I think using the word meat in a c ration should be illegal.


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## squatting dog (Nov 16, 2020)

911 said:


> We had just started coming out of a jungle and into a large clearing, which increased our vulnerability. There was elephant grass for acres in front of us. Our Lt. decided that we should go back a little deeper into the jungle and wait until dark before trying to get across this wide field of elephant grass.
> 
> We ate ‘c’ rats that evening and tried to get some sleep. We could hear artillery fire off into the distant. I tried to write a letter to home using what daylight was left. The next morning, I read it and decided to throw it away. Hell, I couldn’t even read it.
> 
> ...


Not sure many understand how dangerous elephant grass was.    Nasty stuff.


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## squatting dog (Nov 16, 2020)

oldman said:


> That’s a really good story. I remember all that darn elephant grass. I sometimes hear the Hueys in my sleep and will suddenly wake up.
> I can still taste some of the c rations, especially the spaghetti and meatballs. I think using the word meat in a c ration should be illegal.


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## Mat (Nov 16, 2020)




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## oldman (Nov 17, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Not sure many understand how dangerous elephant grass was.    Nasty stuff.
> 
> View attachment 133723 View attachment 133724


On one patrol, we had almost came out of a small field of elephant grass when one of the fellows in our patrol simply fell over. No one knew what happened. We couldn't revive him, so me and a couple of other Marines carried him out of the grass and down by a small creek where we could hide alongside the bank. We didn't want to leave him and there was no way were going to leave him, so we called for a medevac to come and get him while we waited. It only took maybe 15 minutes until the chopper arrived and lifted him into the chopper and off they went and so did we, as we continued on.

A few days later, our patrol leader gathers us together and goes over the day's game plan. The last thing he tells us is that Tommy, the guy that fell over, had died from a snakebite. They have these little green vipers, I don't know what they were, but they were about four to six inches long and deadly. They had some weird looking frogs and other reptiles over there. When the rains came and we would cross a marsh or a bog, you could see them floating by you.


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## oldman (Nov 17, 2020)

I wanted to ask if any of you Vietnam Vets know or remember the name of those small snakes that were poisonous? I later learned from a Captain that they could kill a man in less than 15 seconds. Can a snakebite venom  travel that fast through our system? I was young, so maybe that’s why I believed him.


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## Treacle (Nov 17, 2020)

Only watched films and documentaries. Heart breaking for all involved.


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## squatting dog (Nov 17, 2020)

oldman said:


> I wanted to ask if any of you Vietnam Vets know or remember the name of those small snakes that were poisonous? I later learned from a Captain that they could kill a man in less than 15 seconds. Can a snakebite venom  travel that fast through our system? I was young, so maybe that’s why I believed him.


Probably not 15 seconds, but, the bamboo viper can definitely kill you if not treated quickly. 
Trudging through the jungle and you head into a bamboo stand or some elephant grass. Now, you have to not only watch for the enemy, you have our old friend the Bamboo Pit Viper. A cute little fellow not more than about 12 inches long and not bigger around then your finger. However, when this little guy who hangs out in bamboo or elephant grass bites you, the wound is extremely painful, as if you had been branded with a hot iron, and the pain does not subside until about 24 hours after being bitten. Within a few minutes of being bitten, the surrounding flesh dies and turns black, highlighting the puncture wounds. The wound site quickly swells and the skin and muscle become black due to necrosis.  To say you need first aid quickly is an understatement.


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## Mat (Nov 17, 2020)

My platoon leader and Pilot made a DVD some years ago and gave one to all of us that were still in touch.  He was still flying two years ago but I think he is probably slowing down a bit.  He was a 1st Lieutenant when we flew together and he retired a full colonel.  He left RVN the same time I came home on Christmas Leave 68, at that time he was sent to fly for the Air Defense Command San Francisco.  There were a lot of us Nike People spread out after 68 because the US scrapped the Nike Defense system, it was costly and outdated.  I also had a captain who was for a time executive officer of the 121st which I joined after returning from Christmas Leave.  He was married to a woman that was raised less than 4 miles from the Nike site I was stationed at.  In a little town called Venus on highway 160, it was the short cut to the base if coming from Dallas to the base.  It's a small world out there
1
https://streamable.com/7exlk3
2
https://streamable.com/lvq76e
3
https://streamable.com/suolyo
4
https://streamable.com/0ct14s


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## oldman (Nov 21, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Probably not 15 seconds, but, the bamboo viper can definitely kill you if not treated quickly.
> Trudging through the jungle and you head into a bamboo stand or some elephant grass. Now, you have to not only watch for the enemy, you have our old friend the Bamboo Pit Viper. A cute little fellow not more than about 12 inches long and not bigger around then your finger. However, when this little guy who hangs out in bamboo or elephant grass bites you, the wound is extremely painful, as if you had been branded with a hot iron, and the pain does not subside until about 24 hours after being bitten. Within a few minutes of being bitten, the surrounding flesh dies and turns black, highlighting the puncture wounds. The wound site quickly swells and the skin and muscle become black due to necrosis.  To say you need first aid quickly is an understatement.
> 
> View attachment 133901


We had quite a few men get bitten by snakes and if I remember correctly, a few died. I was in a fairly good size Battalion. One of the Marines that was in the same patrol as I was on a really hot, humid night was bitten. He told me later that the bite hurt worse than any other part of it. He didn't know what kind of snake it was because he never saw it, but he did say they gave him something like seven or eight doses of antivenom and plenty of antibiotics. He thought he was going home, but he recovered too quickly. That's what he was told. 

How can they give someone antivenom if they didn't identify the species of the snake? Just wondering now that I think about it.


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## jerry old (Nov 21, 2020)

sounds like they gave him ever antivenom they had, hoping they would get the right one.

Yes, you get bit by a   rattlesnake, you have to  tell doc what kind on snake it was...
Physician's insist , 'we have to know.'   
Or course that is here in America, during peacetime-assume it is quite different when you in
an area where people want to kill you.

will goggle, 'does doc have to know what kind of snake bit you?


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## oldman (Nov 21, 2020)

jerry old said:


> sounds like they gave him ever antivenom they had, hoping they would get the right one.
> 
> Yes, you get bit by a   rattlesnake, you have to  tell doc what kind on snake it was...
> Physician's insist , 'we have to know.'
> ...


I looked it up on Google and could not find a specific answer, but I did read a line that stated even a non-poisonous snake may be deadly due to infection and that triggered a memory.

I was in elementary school and maybe I was in 5th or 6th grade at the time. There was a girl in my class that lived in a house on the other end of the village. She was picking strawberries on day and a black snake bit her. We all know that black snakes are non-venomous. The next day, she became very ill and towards evening, she became worse and was vomiting and had  high fever. Her Dad took her to the Emergency Room at the hospital. Of course, they ran a series of questions by the parents and the Mom finally told them that she was bitten by a snake just the day before. 

The doctors ran with that. After they did some blood tests, they found out that she had some type of blood infection caused by the snake bite. They admitted her to the hospital and for I don't know how many days it was, but they had dripped a lot of different antibiotics into her. The family was told by the head Doctor that she probably wasn't going to survive. She was lapsing in and out of conscientiousness. Miraculously, she survived, but wasn't like she was before. I remember her not being well a lot and she didn't talk coherently at times. The family moved away about a year later. Maybe I should look her up on Facebook. I had a crush on her for maybe a year, but she never liked me as a boyfriend because I was too tall.    

I did ask her parents why did she get so sick from that snake bite. Her Dad told me that snakes eat other animals and black snakes will eat field mice, rats, baby bunnies, squirrels, etc. One of them must have been infected and past it on to the snake.


----------



## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

This look's like the snake, definitely not one of the good snakes if you know what I mean.  Of course all species have a role in our kingdom, as long as they are far far away from me I'm alright with snakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimeresurus_stejnegeri


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## fmdog44 (Nov 21, 2020)

Ever wonder why so many VN vets need to talk about their war when other vets of other wars don't?


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## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Ever wonder why so many VN vets need to talk about their war when other vets of other wars don't?


Maybe because 95 percent, if not more of other wars are all dead.  We're down to 600,000 from a total of 10 million from the Vietnam war.  I am trying for the last group to survive still able to tie my own shoes and talk.  Over the years I have always been fascinated listening to the stories of other war veterans.  The man I worked for in Nevada was a Korean war vet, he was a tank driver.  He told me once that he and the rest of his crew tried to help the Marines outside the Tanks in the miserable killer low temps to stay alive by letting one or two into the tank to warm up.  They left the Tanks idling because if they shut down it was almost impossible to restart them due to the extreme cold.  The man told me that he was 8 years old when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and that he and his Father were downtown LA when the news came over radio that they had attacked.  

Earlier I also worked in San Diego quite a few times over the years, but I met a retired Marine 1st sgt who was in the 2nd division I think it was there on the Chosen Reservoir during the retreat.  His nic name was Sully because his last name was Sullivan.  He told me that when the retreat order came down that it was every man for themselves and he caught a ride on an ambulance taking bodies to the rear, he said all the bodies were frozen stiff in the back of the ambulance stacked on top of one another, he said he sat on top of the dead and was glad to get the ride.  I liked Sully, he was quite a character.  Another great friend who just happened to be a Houston man, his name was Willard Houston, no pun that was his last name.  He drove a Tank retriever in WWII France and Germany after D-Day.  He told me how the drivers were all instructed to drive fast and not slow down while going thru those towns, the streets were all narrow and he said they were just destroying all the homes lining the streets.  He was with his friends sitting around a camp fire in the rear trying to stay warm and a group of German soldiers came up waving a white flag and just surrendered.  

One more veteran from the Pacific war, he too was living in Nevada and he told me that he had been a camera film technician on the P-38 aircraft.  He actually had his schooling in Galveston at the Naval Air station of that time. He said he got some time off and caught a flight from Guam to Tinian  to visit a good friend who was stationed there.  He said he had a terrible time finding a flight back to Guam because all the aircraft were going forward and not to the rear.  I have more I learned from others, they can't speak now so someone like me has to do it for them.   It's history and that is how I look at it, I served in a very specific time frame of history that was being made while I lived.  My life starts just after WWII and I saw more things taking place than a lot of generations have seen before me.  The entire space program, the first man on the moon, while I was actually fighting in a war.  Everyone is a walking history book and has a lot to tell.  ;0)


----------



## fmdog44 (Nov 21, 2020)

Mat-Ever hear of the Middle East? 911? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria?


----------



## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Mat-Ever hear of the Middle East? 911? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria?


Well, you haven't made your point yet.  You specifically asked about my or maybe our war, I don't know you or your background.  I think you  made a statement and not a question.  So what is your point,  do you think we're different because we were in Vietnam.  How many of us are on this forum, are there hundreds of us or maybe thousands.  You tell me, most normal people would see the forum Topic Military Veterans and expect to see someone sharing something.   You will probably see a lot more now that many are leaving facebook.  You should maybe not use the word NEED when it comes to a person sharing experiences from a long time ago.  I need nothing and ask for nothing, I do like to share while I still can.  Maybe the shoe is on the other foot, right.


----------



## tbeltrans (Nov 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Ever wonder why so many VN vets need to talk about their war when other vets of other wars don't?


Many of us don't, but if it helps some to talk about their experiences, then by all means, do so.  For some, it seems still to be really important to connect with others who had similar experiences all these years later.  I see that at the VA, and do understand it.  Some want to talk, many don't.  To me, the important thing is that those of us who got back to the world, should be free to do what we need to settle in.  I had a difficult time mentally "coming home", but didn't understand that until years later, talking to a psychologist at the VA.  Fortunately, for the most part, I did adjust eventually.  I do read this thread, but have little desire to participate in the stories.  However, I do understand that some do.  Nothing wrong with that.  Isn't a forum a place where discussions that need to be had, should?  After all, this is a military veterans sub-forum.  Other issues people have are talked about in the other sub-forums.

Tony


----------



## fmdog44 (Nov 21, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> Many of us don't, but if it helps some to talk about their experiences, then by all means, do so.  For some, it seems still to be really important to connect with others who had similar experiences all these years later.  I see that at the VA, and do understand it.  Some want to talk, many don't.  To me, the important thing is that those of us who got back to the world, should be free to do what we need to settle in.  I had a difficult time mentally "coming home", but didn't understand that until years later, talking to a psychologist at the VA.  Fortunately, for the most part, I did adjust eventually.  I do read this thread, but have little desire to participate in the stories.  However, I do understand that some do.  Nothing wrong with that.  Isn't a forum a place where discussions that need to be had, should?  After all, this is a military veterans sub-forum.  Other issues people have are talked about in the other sub-forums.
> 
> Tony


With all due respect it is an insult to other vets of other wars to listen to VN vets as if they had it worse than other vets of greater wars. Add to the social unrest tied to that war WHICH WE LOST I have no more space for the problems of VN vets. I worked with many, many Iraq and Afghanistan vets and never heard one them complain, the just did their job as told.


----------



## tbeltrans (Nov 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> With all due respect it is an insult to other vets of other wars to listen to VN vets as if they had it worse than other vets of greater wars. Add to the social unrest tied to that war WHICH WE LOST I have no more space for the problems of VN vets. I worked with many, many Iraq and Afghanistan vets and never heard one them complain, the just did their job as told.


Well, we are used to being treated like this when we got home, so it is nothing new.  All I ask is that you respect these guys for their service.  They did their job too, and I disagree that these guys are insulting veterans of other wars.  If you yourself, are a veteran of another war, then this is the first time I have heard that from such a veteran.  I have certainly heard similar sentiments from civilians when we came home.  For years, until recently, we said nothing about being combat veterans.  Usually veterans have a respect for each other, understanding what we went through regardless of which war.  Something is certainly amiss about this part of the thread.

Anyway, let it be said I have no argument with you personally and do enjoy your other posts and insights elsewhere, but do feel that if these guys want to talk, let them.  The thread is not required reading.

Tony


----------



## FastTrax (Nov 21, 2020)

Mat said:


> Maybe because 95 percent, if not more of other wars are all dead.  We're down to 600,000 from a total of 10 million from the Vietnam war.  I am trying for the last group to survive still able to tie my own shoes and talk.  Over the years I have always been fascinated listening to the stories of other war veterans.  The man I worked for in Nevada was a Korean war vet, he was a tank driver.  He told me once that he and the rest of his crew tried to help the Marines outside the Tanks in the miserable killer low temps to stay alive by letting one or two into the tank to warm up.  They left the Tanks idling because if they shut down it was almost impossible to restart them due to the extreme cold.  The man told me that he was 8 years old when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and that he and his Father were downtown LA when the news came over radio that they had attacked.
> 
> Earlier I also worked in San Diego quite a few times over the years, but I met a retired Marine 1st sgt who was in the 2nd division I think it was there on the Chosen Reservoir during the retreat.  His nic name was Sully because his last name was Sullivan.  He told me that when the retreat order came down that it was every man for themselves and he caught a ride on an ambulance taking bodies to the rear, he said all the bodies were frozen stiff in the back of the ambulance stacked on top of one another, he said he sat on top of the dead and was glad to get the ride.  I liked Sully, he was quite a character.  Another great friend who just happened to be a Houston man, his name was Willard Houston, no pun that was his last name.  He drove a Tank retriever in WWII France and Germany after D-Day.  He told me how the drivers were all instructed to drive fast and not slow down while going thru those towns, the streets were all narrow and he said they were just destroying all the homes lining the streets.  He was with his friends sitting around a camp fire in the rear trying to stay warm and a group of German soldiers came up waving a white flag and just surrendered.
> 
> One more veteran from the Pacific war, he too was living in Nevada and he told me that he had been a camera film technician on the P-38 aircraft.  He actually had his schooling in Galveston at the Naval Air station of that time. He said he got some time off and caught a flight from Guam to Tinian  to visit a good friend who was stationed there.  He said he had a terrible time finding a flight back to Guam because all the aircraft were going forward and not to the rear.  I have more I learned from others, they can't speak now so someone like me has to do it for them.   It's history and that is how I look at it, I served in a very specific time frame of history that was being made while I lived.  My life starts just after WWII and I saw more things taking place than a lot of generations have seen before me.  The entire space program, the first man on the moon, while I was actually fighting in a war.  Everyone is a walking history book and has a lot to tell.  ;0)





Mat said:


> Well, you haven't made your point yet.  You specifically asked about my or maybe our war, I don't know you or your background.  I think you  made a statement and not a question.  So what is your point,  do you think we're different because we were in Vietnam.  How many of us are on this forum, are there hundreds of us or maybe thousands.  You tell me, most normal people would see the forum Topic Military Veterans and expect to see someone sharing something.   You will probably see a lot more now that many are leaving facebook.  You should maybe not use the word NEED when it comes to a person sharing experiences from a long time ago.  I need nothing and ask for nothing, I do like to share while I still can.  Maybe the shoe is on the other foot, right.





tbeltrans said:


> Many of us don't, but if it helps some to talk about their experiences, then by all means, do so.  For some, it seems still to be really important to connect with others who had similar experiences all these years later.  I see that at the VA, and do understand it.  Some want to talk, many don't.  To me, the important thing is that those of us who got back to the world, should be free to do what we need to settle in.  I had a difficult time mentally "coming home", but didn't understand that until years later, talking to a psychologist at the VA.  Fortunately, for the most part, I did adjust eventually.  I do read this thread, but have little desire to participate in the stories.  However, I do understand that some do.  Nothing wrong with that.  Isn't a forum a place where discussions that need to be had, should?  After all, this is a military veterans sub-forum.  Other issues people have are talked about in the other sub-forums.
> 
> Tony





tbeltrans said:


> Well, we are used to being treated like this when we got home, so it is nothing new.  All I ask is that you respect these guys for their service.  They did their job too, and I disagree that these guys are insulting veterans of other wars.  If you yourself, are a veteran of another war, then this is the first time I have heard that from such a veteran.  I have certainly heard similar sentiments from civilians when we came home.  For years, until recently, we said nothing about being combat veterans.  Usually veterans have a respect for each other, understanding what we went through regardless of which war.  Something is certainly amiss about this part of the thread.
> 
> Anyway, let it be said I have no argument with you personally and do enjoy your other posts and insights elsewhere, but do feel that if these guys want to talk, let them.  The thread is not required reading.
> 
> Tony



You gentlemen are the sole reason why free speech without repercussions exist in the entire free world yesterday, today and tomorrow. I never had the honor to stand at the gates of HELL to allow free speech and for what you have endured for us will always be revered no matter where or when you fought the wolves for the sheep. Again thanks and may GOD Bless you forever and a day.


----------



## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

Well, the shoe is on the other foot isn't it.  Is there really a better war ?  I think the purpose has been buried in emotional feelings but still has some merit, I don't take offense.  I do wish people would stop insulting us saying we lost a war that was never a war with a plan or an objective.  When I joined the Army in 65 there was scarcely any news about a war or none that I knew of.  I had a nice cushy job young as I was working in Mid West City as the Fire Department dispatcher.  I just wanted to see something I never saw before, here in the Country of course.  I had a lot of fun had some good jobs in the Army and saw a lot of America and the Far East.  I was really lucky the first year in the Army and went to West Point TDY with my unit and a small artillery unit, to help train newbies at the Point.  I think that had to be the highlight of my 5 years, such a beautiful place that you just felt the presence of all the great men who built this nation.  You could walk up to a stone low wall that looks across the Hudson with the same cannon that were there to stop the British with the large chain link under water.  I still remember it like it was yesterday and why wouldn't I want to share that with someone.  I just have better things to do in such a short time than insult other veterans because I happened to be proud and have nothing to be ashamed of., far from it.  I never needed any counseling because I heal myself and adjust for today.


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## tbeltrans (Nov 21, 2020)

Mat said:


> Well, the shoe is on the other foot isn't it.  Is there really a better war ?  I think the purpose has been buried in emotional feelings but still has some merit, I don't take offense.  *I do wish people would stop insulting us saying we lost a war that was never a war with a plan or an objective.*  When I joined the Army in 65 there was scarcely any news about a war or none that I knew of.  I had a nice cushy job young as I was working in Mid West City as the Fire Department dispatcher.  I just wanted to see something I never saw before, here in the Country of course.  I had a lot of fun had some good jobs in the Army and saw a lot of America and the Far East.  I was really lucky the first year in the Army and went to West Point TDY with my unit and a small artillery unit, to help train newbies at the Point.  I think that had to be the highlight of my 5 years, such a beautiful place that you just felt the presence of all the great men who built this nation.  You could walk up to a stone low wall that looks across the Hudson with the same cannon that were there to stop the British with the large chain link under water.  I still remember it like it was yesterday and why wouldn't I want to share that with someone.  I just have better things to do in such a short time than insult other veterans because I happened to be proud and have nothing to be ashamed of., far from it.  I never needed any counseling because I heal myself and adjust for today.



I am glad you addressed that "lost the war" comment, especially since it was emphasized in all caps.  It wasn't my intention to do so because I just intended to jump in here and hopefully ask for some respect that wasn't shown when we came home.  We were despised back then, and apparently in some quarters, are still despised today.  I will continue to read this thread, but unless directly addressed, don't plan to add further comments.

Carry on (or, as you were...)

Tony


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## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> I am glad you addressed that "lost the war" comment, especially since it was emphasized in all caps.  It wasn't my intention to do so because I just intended to jump in here and hopefully ask for some respect that wasn't shown when we came home.  We were despised back then, and apparently in some quarters, are still despised today.  I will continue to read this thread, but unless directly addressed, don't plan to add further comments.
> 
> Carry on (or, as you were...)
> 
> Tony


Here's some Tributes for men I never personally met, and only because we all were in the same era and time.  It has nothing to do with liking someone better than the other, just my way of respecting people I served with.  I loved doing it and like to share them, there are a lot that are no longer with us.


----------



## Irwin (Nov 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> With all due respect it is an insult to other vets of other wars to listen to VN vets as if they had it worse than other vets of greater wars. Add to the social unrest tied to that war WHICH WE LOST I have no more space for the problems of VN vets. I worked with many, many Iraq and Afghanistan vets and never heard one them complain, the just did their job as told.



A _BIG _difference is: most Vietnam vets were drafted while Iraq and Afghanistan vets volunteered.

I feel for Vietnam vets who had their lives shattered through no fault of their own. It was either that or go to Canada or jail. I was 16 when the Vietnam war draft ended, so I avoided the war. I don't know what I would have done... gone, I guess. I lucked out, but I feel for those who didn't.

I also feel for vets who volunteered. War is fucked. They're fought mostly to benefit the MIC or big corporations.


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## jerry old (Nov 21, 2020)

In the Korean there were no (or limited) demonstrations against the war.
The Korean vets were bitter that their sacrifices were not recognized or honored
(Those that returned, a lot didn't)
The Korean War was three years

Yes, the Vietnam Vets are different-how would you feel if your fellow citizens told you
how stupid you were for going.  Naw, it was a war different from all other wars we have been
involved in.


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## Mat (Nov 21, 2020)

55 Years ago there were very large military bases and the surroundings were all military families and retired people so you were insulated from all the idiocy that was taking place all over the country.  Myself I was at a Nike Site in the cotton fields of Dallas Fort Worth all of 67 and several months into 68.  It never reached our world at that time.  My friends and I were going into Fort Worth and were mixing in with the local hippies but the military hair cuts were a dead give a way, not saying that it made a difference but it was just more casual back then in the south.  Ah yes Cherry Street, Fort Worth the first club The Cellar was there and the happening place, upstairs and a narrow stairway guarded by huge people with flash lights.  No tables or chairs just a bunch of pillows on the floor where you flopped down.  I have to say they had some really good bands playing at the time.  The drinks were all watered down and cough syrup would give you a better buzz  heh


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## oldman (Nov 22, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Ever wonder why so many VN vets need to talk about their war when other vets of other wars don't?


I have no problem speaking to another Vietnam Veteran because they understand what it is I am talking about. When I speak to a non-Vietnam Veteran, some seem to either look off into space or have that "I don't care" look. Swapping stories has become good therapy. 

Whenever I see someone wearing a cap showing his ship's number or a war veteran, I always thank them. If they want to talk about their experiences in the war, I am willing to listen.


----------



## ClassicRockr (Nov 22, 2020)

Well, I joined the Navy right before I graduated high school. I knew the Draft would be after me, and sure enough, got my Draft Notice shortly after arriving at Great Lakes Naval Training Center. Thank God the Navy didn't release me for anything, because the Draft would've been right there to take me. 

Was never in combat, but was in a Destroyer Escort Group (COMDESRON 52) for the Carrier Kitty Hawk. Was on the "gun line" in Nam, but that was it. Only one Westpac Cruise, because I was injured in a roller skating accident, on my way to Nam on my second Westpac Cruise. I was put into the Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, Japan after the accident and my ship pulled out to continue on to Nam. Navy still awarded me a bronze star, to be put on my Vietnam Service Ribbon/Medal, since, at the time of the accident, I was still part of the crew of the ship. 

I do know one infantry soldier who was Drafted and in Vietnam. He was shot by a sniper, hospitalized and never returned to his Unit. He doesn't have any problem talking to me about his "Vietnam" time, but knows nothing about my time in the Navy.


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## tbeltrans (Nov 22, 2020)

As for only Vietnam veterans talking about their experiences, in thinking about this overnight, I realized this isn't universally true.  When we came home from Vietnam, we were met with the kind of hostility that the dissenting poster here shows toward us and therefore said nothing about our experiences.  When the folks came back from the various conflicts in the Middle East, they were in the media talking about the impact the wars had on their families and lives as they came home.  These folks were very open, and we found that they had much the same issues we had.  It was from those discussions in the media that I came to understand what we went through in coming home.  The culture around their coming home was very different.  Frequently in the local news, there was coverage of the welcoming these folks have been getting from their communities and families, which is VERY different from that we got coming home from Vietnam.  I, for one, am very glad that these folks are being treated better than we were because they, as did we then, deserve that much, and I am sorry to see that there is still that outright hostility from some here toward Vietnam veterans.  I suppose for some, that will never change.

Like any combat veteran, these people didn't just do their jobs and shut up about it.  Combat vets from every war have their share of difficulties adjusting, with many incidences of domestic violence, drinking, suicide, etc.  There are all manner of stats about these things particularly involving those coming home from the Middle East because things have changed since Vietnam so they ARE able to openly talk about it.  At the VA, there is all manner of help for these folks, with suicide hot lines, family counseling, etc. 

So I submit that just because the combat vets from the Middle East conflicts may not be talking to the dissenting poster here, that does not mean that there is no such discussion anywhere else.  I have a younger brother, a retired Marine, who served two tours in Iraq.  He talks about his experiences to me and other veterans, but not to civilians.  So it is certainly possible that civilians may get the mistaken idea that the combat vets from the Middle East do not talk about their experiences.  As with any traumatic life experience, it is natural for those involved to seek out those who will understand to talk through it.  I don't doubt that those who have not had such an experience as combat would not understand this, which is why veterans talk to veterans.

Tony


----------



## squatting dog (Nov 22, 2020)

tbeltrans said:


> As for only Vietnam veterans talking about their experiences, in thinking about this overnight, I realized this isn't universally true.  When we came home from Vietnam, we were met with the kind of hostility that the dissenting power here shows toward us and therefore said nothing about our experiences.  When the folks came back from the various conflicts in the Middle East, they were in the media talking about the impact the wars had on their families and lives as they came home.  These folks were very open, and we found that they had much the same issues we had.  It was from those discussions in the media that I came to understand what we went through in coming home.  The culture around their coming home was very different.  Frequently in the local news, there was coverage of the welcoming these folks have been getting from their communities and families, which is VERY different from that we got coming home from Vietnam.  I, for one, am very glad that these folks are being treated better than we were because they, as did we then, deserve that much, and I am sorry to see that there is still that outright hostility from some here toward Vietnam veterans.  I suppose for some, that will never change.
> 
> Like any combat veteran, these people didn't just do their jobs and shut up about it.  Combat vets from every war have their share of difficulties adjusting, with many incidences of domestic violence, drinking, suicide, etc.  There are all manner of stats about these things particularly involving those coming home from the Middle East because things have changed since Vietnam so they ARE able to openly talk about it.  At the VA, there is all manner of help for these folks, with suicide hot lines, family counseling, etc.
> 
> ...




Well said.


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## Mat (Nov 23, 2020)

Sounds good to me !


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## oldman (Nov 24, 2020)

I don't know if it was true or not, but I had heard stories, maybe even on here, that when the ships would sail into San Francisco Bay returning from Vietnam, the sailors would wear their dress whites and some morons would stand on the Golden Gate Bridge and dump paint over the side onto the seamen.

Is that true?


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## FastTrax (Nov 24, 2020)

oldman said:


> I don't know if it was true or not, but I had heard stories, maybe even on here, that when the ships would sail into San Francisco Bay returning from Vietnam, the sailors would wear their dress whites and some morons would stand on the Golden Gate Bridge and dump paint over the side onto the seamen.
> 
> Is that true?



I really do hope that's not true but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. After the first incident the USN shore patrol should have been waiting for a repeat performance and then some people would be bungie jumping off that bridge before it became popular. Well it's our military people that fight and die for our freedom to be disrespectful and more so cowardly. Soapbox away.


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## jerry old (Nov 27, 2020)

Movie "1917"
British soldiers truck gets stuck in the mud
troops get out of truck and push truck
Several are cluster behind the truck, pushing...
_none of the troops get mud on them from the spinning tires_

If your pushing a truck mired in the  wet mud and none of the mud
gets on you or your comrades-something is bad wrong  
Having helped push sever 2 1/2's out of the mud this irritated me.
What, none of the movie makers realized what happens to troops pushing truck out of the mud?


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## FastTrax (Nov 27, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Movie "1917"
> British soldiers truck gets stuck in the mud
> troops get out of truck and push truck
> Several are cluster behind the truck, pushing...
> ...



j o U R 2 fun knee.


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## Mat (Nov 27, 2020)

FastTrax said:


> j o U R 2 fun knee.
> 
> View attachment 135866


Yes but the tyres were probably 6 inches wide and 21 inch diameter.  Actually I really loved the movie, one of the best movies I've watched in a very long time.  The movie never let you rest a moment.


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## Mat (Nov 27, 2020)

The definition of Injun Country


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## cdestroyer (Nov 28, 2020)

As a navy radioman I handled various crypto equipment including keying materials, so I had a very high security clearance. It got even higher when I was on the proteus sub tender, around the nukes. I have forgotten most of the things I was supposed to forget, things the general public did not have a need to know. I was a facon operator (facilities control) on the proteus, meaning I handled all the banks of receivers/transmitters/patch panels and crypto gear. Most of the time we were moored to the pier and everything was landline. Only when we went to sea did it get technical.


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## FastTrax (Dec 1, 2020)

jerry old said:


> Movie "1917"
> British soldiers truck gets stuck in the mud
> troops get out of truck and push truck
> Several are cluster behind the truck, pushing...
> ...





Mat said:


> Yes but the tyres were probably 6 inches wide and 21 inch diameter.  Actually I really loved the movie, one of the best movies I've watched in a very long time.  The movie never let you rest a moment.



Here ya go gents.

Enjoy.











www.uphe.com/movies/1917

www.time.com/5751665/1917-movie-history/

www.esquire.com/enternment/movies/a30456703/1917-movie-based-on-true-story/

www.rogerebert.com/reviews/1917-movie-review-2019

www.smithsonianmag.com/history/true-history-behind-1917-movie-180973800/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_(2019_film)


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## Mat (Dec 4, 2020)

What it looked like from our flight line around 2am, the other is titled a fool hanging out.  The guy sitting on the rocket pod must have had a great trust in those four 3/8 bolts holding all that weight plus him.  Obviously he didn't know someone had bought bolts made in china.  I just had to throw that in there because later there were Jet engines falling off our commercial airliners and that was the cause, substandard hardware bought from china.


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## oldman (May 29, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> View attachment 132384
> 
> View attachment 132385
> 
> ...


I was reflecting back yesterday about the Vietnam War. Such a waste of humanity. The only war the U.S. ever lost. We won all of the battles, but lost the war. Why? Because there were too many of those little guys coming at us from all sides. They never quit or gave up. At times, even retreating was a dishonor to them. 

One evening while we (9 of us) were out looking for Charlie, it was just starting to get dark when Sammy began yelling "I got two!" I thought to myself "Two what?" Honestly, I was thinking maybe snakes. Hiding in the tall grass (we called it elephant grass) were two men holding some type of rifle. The rifles were never identified. Why they didn't shoot, we don't know, but now we had a problem. No one ever told us what to do with the men if we captured any. Both of them were very cooperative. It was like they were glad to be captured and maybe they were. We tied their hands behind their back and marched them back to base. After we turned them over to the Lt., we never saw them or heard about them again. Also, no one ever asked about them. It was as if they disappeared and I always thought that they probably did. No one could recall seeing them leave. I still have to wonder what happened to them.


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## fmdog44 (May 29, 2021)

The story of Viet Nam was explained in part when the veterans gathered together and threw their medals over the White House fence and at rivers and lakes etc. Not to mention the horrific treatment of our returning troops.


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## peramangkelder (May 29, 2021)

When our ANZACS returned their treatment by a lot of Aussies was deplorable
I will be happy when our Troops return from Afghanistan


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## oldman (May 30, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> The story of Viet Nam was explained in part when the veterans gathered together and threw their medals over the White House fence and at rivers and lakes etc. Not to mention the horrific treatment of our returning troops.


As much as I disliked the war and all the casualties we suffered, doing something like that never entered my mind. Many of the returning men did receive a lot of negative treatment. Being called a baby killer, getting spit on and being given the finger are only a few of the disgusting things that happened to returning Vets, so yes, it is understandable why some of them did not feel appreciated for their service. It would take another 20 years during Desert Storm did people’s minds change about the brave men and women that fought in current wars. It was almost shameful to display anything that would tell the world that you were a Vietnam Veteran.
A lot has changed since the 1970’s.


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## terry123 (May 30, 2021)

My husband was in Nam and would never talk about it an I respected that.  My dad never talked about his either but I remember the nights I would awake as a kid hearing him relive some of his experiences.  My poor mother had a terrible time sleeping with him when he had those night terrors.  She was not alone as his two brothers went through the same thing.


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## Llynn (May 30, 2021)

I've already said everything I have to say about my personal Vietnam experiences on this Forum.   Now I've put it all to rest.


----------



## Nathan (May 30, 2021)

oldman said:


> I was reflecting back yesterday about the Vietnam War. Such a waste of humanity. The only war the U.S. ever lost. We won all of the battles, but lost the war. Why? Because there were too many of those little guys coming at us from all sides. They never quit or gave up. At times, even retreating was a dishonor to them.


I agree that it was a waste of humanity.  I don't believe that we lost militarily, we entered the conflict without a clear game plan. I used to think that if sending thousands of troops and billions of dollars was what we were going to do, we should have just annexed South Vietnam and declared it as part of the U.S.   However, getting involved in another country's civil war just makes that party seem like the invader.


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## jerry old (May 30, 2021)

Nathan, post 92
were still doing it, pull american   bases worldwide


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## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

Phú Hiệp 1966. On top of my bunker. Please resist saying, "thank you for your service". I know you mean well, I really do know that, but I am not proud of it so thanking me makes me feel uncomfortable.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Gulf of Tonkin resolution.  Americans died and billionaires profited  because of *fake news*.


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## squatting dog (Jun 7, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Phú Hiệp 1966. On top of my bunker. Please resist saying, "thank you for your service". I know you mean well, I really do know that, but I am not proud of it so thanking me makes me feel uncomfortable.
> 
> View attachment 168243



How about a simple welcome home brother.


----------



## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> How about a simple welcome home brother.
> 
> 
> View attachment 168256


Very nice, thank you!


----------



## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Gulf of Tonkin resolution.  Americans died and billionaires profited  because of *fake news*.


The Military-Industrial Complex had the taxpayers by the balls right from day one.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 7, 2021)

Was the news fake or the story given to them fake?  Are you suggesting collusion? @OldiebutGoodie


----------



## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Was the news fake or the story given to them fake?  Are you suggesting collusion? @OldiebutGoodie


The whole thing was fake. Vietnam did fire on an American ship by accident some days earlier. They admitted it, apologized for it, and dialogue between Vietnam and the US was satisfactory. Then the US faked an attack. Vietnam said it didn't happen the American navy said it didn't happen but the CIA and Washington faked the whole thing. It was not a mistake or a misunderstanding. It was faked pure and simple.


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## Pepper (Jun 7, 2021)

You and I have much in common @Verisure


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## squatting dog (Jun 7, 2021)

Taken from the U.S. Naval Institute after top secret files were de-classified in 2008.

Historians have long suspected that the second attack in the Gulf of Tonkin never occurred and that the resolution was based on faulty evidence. But no declassified information had suggested that McNamara, Johnson, or anyone else in the decision-making process had intentionally misinterpreted the intelligence concerning the 4 August incident. More than 40 years after the events, that all changed with the release of the nearly 200 documents related to the Gulf of Tonkin incident and transcripts from the Johnson Library.

These new documents and tapes reveal what historians could not prove: There was not a second attack on U.S. Navy ships in the Tonkin Gulf in early August 1964. Furthermore, the evidence suggests a disturbing and deliberate attempt by Secretary of Defense McNamara to distort the evidence and mislead Congress.

The historian also concluded that some of the signals intercepted during the nights of 2 and 4 August were falsified to support the retaliatory attacks. Moreover, some intercepts were altered to show different receipt times, and other evidence was cherry picked to deliberately distort the truth. According to Hanyok, "SIGINT information was presented in such a manner as to preclude responsible decision makers in the Johnson Administration from having the complete and objective narrative of events of 04 August 1964."

Subsequently, Secretary McNamara intentionally misled Congress and the public about his knowledge of and the nature of the 34A operations, which surely would have been perceived as the actual cause for the 2 August attack on the _Maddox _and the apparent attack on the 4th. On 6 August, when called before a joint session of the Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees to testify about the incident, McNamara eluded the questioning of Senator Wayne Morse (D-OR) when he asked specifically whether the 34A operations may have provoked the North Vietnamese response. McNamara instead declared that "our Navy played absolutely no part in, was not associated with, was not aware of, any South Vietnamese actions, if there were any."
Later that day, Secretary McNamara lied when he denied knowledge of the provocative 34A patrols at a Pentagon news conference. When asked by a reporter if he knew of any confrontations between the South and North Vietnamese navies, he responded: "No, none that I know of. . . . [T]hey operate on their own. They are part of the South Vietnamese Navy . . . operating in the coastal waters, inspecting suspicious incoming junks, seeking to deter and prevent the infiltration of both men and material." Another reporter pressed the issue, "Do these [patrol boats] go north, into North Vietnamese waters?" McNamara again eluded the question, "They have advanced closer and closer to the 17th parallel, and in some cases, I think they have moved beyond that in an effort to stop the infiltration closer to the point of origin."
In reality, McNamara knew full well that the 34A attacks had probably provoked the 2 August attacks on the _Maddox_. On an audio tape from the Johnson Library declassified in December 2005, he admitted to the President the morning after the attacks that the two events were almost certainly connected:


----------



## squatting dog (Jun 7, 2021)

And lastly and what's most shameful...   

For his part, McNamara never admitted his mistakes. In his award-winning 2003 video memoirs Fog of War, he remained unapologetic and even bragged of his ability to deceive: "I learned early on never answer the question that is asked of you. Answer the question that you wish had been asked of you. And quite frankly, I follow that rule. It's a very good rule."


----------



## mellowyellow (Jun 7, 2021)

_For the first time in Australian history, the nation’s troops received *no universal embrace* when they returned home. *When that long war ended for Australia in 1972, Vietnam veterans were given no welcome home march.* No cheering, no bunting. It left a legacy of bitterness and confusion that claimed more lives through alcoholism and suicide._


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## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Was the news fake or the story given to them fake?  Are you suggesting collusion? @OldiebutGoodie





Read the *Pentagon Papers* - clearly FAKE NEWS manufactured by the US government in order to promote illegal war and imperialistic colonialism.  Even Robert McNamara (the architect of the war) admitted that those papers were true.


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## Pepper (Jun 7, 2021)

That doesn't answer my question.  Are you saying the press knowingly printed government lies; IOW that the press & the government were involved together in spreading the false information?@oldiebutgoody.  Thanks.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> That doesn't answer my question.  Are you saying the press knowingly printed government lies; IOW that the press & the government were involved together in spreading the false information?@oldiebutgoody.  Thanks.




Back then there was no indication that the news media engaged in fakery.  But the government clearly did. 

By contrast, when Bush faked news of WMD in Iraq, the American media refused to publish the *Downing Street Memo* like the British press did.   There, clearly the controlled pro war news media did report fake news in the USA.  Publication of the Memo is what led to the immediate downfall of the Tony Blair regime in the UK as well as the end of Aznar regime in Spain.   Had the media reported it in the USA, Bush would also have lost his position in the White House.


memo.indd (gwu.edu)

Downing Street memo - Wikipedia


----------



## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> You and I have much in common @Verisure


You can PM me if you want.


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## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Taken from the U.S. Naval Institute after top secret files were de-classified in 2008.
> 
> Historians have long suspected that the second attack in the Gulf of Tonkin never occurred and that the resolution was based on faulty evidence. But no declassified information had suggested that McNamara, Johnson, or anyone else in the decision-making process had intentionally misinterpreted the intelligence concerning the 4 August incident. More than 40 years after the events, that all changed with the release of the nearly 200 documents related to the Gulf of Tonkin incident and transcripts from the Johnson Library.
> 
> ...


... and during all of that (before it, and after it for that matter) American tax dollars were being rushed off to GM (and the other Industrial-cum-military organs) to build tanks and weaponry .... and more ... still more ... even more .... more yet still ... Americans and Vietnamese were being vaporized and having holes put through them so that more American tax dollars could be rushed off to plastic manufacturers of body bags and then PR'd as a worthy revenge tactic - *"Let's get them there Commie bastards, America! They done went and killed more or our boys! We gots to show 'em who's boss over there in Asia! So make sure to have your nearest high school host some ribbon-infested soldier stop by and fill your sons' heads with Joan Wayne stories!"*


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## Verisure (Jun 7, 2021)

Pepper said:


> That doesn't answer my question.  Are you saying the press knowingly printed government lies; IOW that the press & the government were involved together in spreading the false information?@oldiebutgoody.  Thanks.


That's often a difficult question to answer. The reporter. The editor. The boss. The owner. Industrial-Political coercion? We can say that I name them in reverse order of importance. Independent journalism? Where is it? Where was it? Julian Assange can tell us but he's been gaged and muzzled. The next time he surfaces I wouldn't be surprised to learn and he's had his tongue and fingers amputated. 

But to answer your question as best as possible it was the Washington Post (back then, mind!!!!!) that dared print the truth while no one else did ... so you're probably right about the press being accomplices in the dirty deeds of the Whine Hose and Pentagram.


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## Pepper (Jun 8, 2021)

Whine Hose and Pentagram---


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## Frogfur (Jul 1, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> View attachment 132384
> 
> View attachment 132385
> 
> ...


I was in country August of 68. I served with U.S. Marines. I had to let all that go to have a better quality of life. Its all water under the bridge.


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## FastTrax (Jul 1, 2021)

Frogfur said:


> I was in country August of 68. I served with U.S. Marines. I had to let all that go to have a better quality of life. Its all water under the bridge.



Thank you for your service and commitment, also welcome to the site and above all enjoy your weekend.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 2, 2021)

I don't think the war was lost because of antiwar sentiment at home. Nor do I believe it was due to lack of fighting skills by the US et al. It was an unwinnable war. The North was infiltering the South in huge numbers. There's not a good military solution to that problem. And Vietnam was more of a civil war than a strictly aggression war. There was great support for the North throughout the South- again, not a  true military  addressable problem. And China was never going to let the North fall, and have a US allied state on its border. I don't believe the North wholeheartedly bled its sons, and daughters into a war that depended on US home opinion. The North's determination was the basis of the defeat of the South. I think the Vietnam war  was not a war with a military solution. The objective were fuzzy, sever military constraints, and quite frankly an opponent, who was  more willing to sacrifice its citizens.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jul 2, 2021)

The imperialistic war of colonialist terrorism was unwinnable for the simple reason that the USA  invaders never got majority support from the populace.  This is why the imperialists lost the wars on Iraq and Afghanistan as well.  You just cannot win a war if the people that you claim to be liberating are against you and in support of their own government.  Had any of those terrorist wars been just, the populace would have joined with the invaders and all three wars would have been won rather than lost. But they never joined and fought bravely for their own liberation from the invaders. History has plenty of precedent for this as shown in 1776 and in 1812.


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## Verisure (Jul 2, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I don't think the war was lost because of antiwar sentiment at home. Nor do I believe it was due to lack of fighting skills by the US et al. It was an unwinnable war. The North was infiltering the South in huge numbers. There's not a good military solution to that problem. And Vietnam was more of a civil war than a strictly aggression war. There was great support for the North throughout the South- again, not a  true military  addressable problem. And China was never going to let the North fall, and have a US allied state on its border. I don't believe the North wholeheartedly bled its sons, and daughters into a war that depended on US home opinion. The North's determination was the basis of the defeat of the South. I think the Vietnam war  was not a war with a military solution. The objective were fuzzy, sever military constraints, and quite frankly an opponent, who was  more willing to sacrifice its citizens.


There was no war until the U.S. created one. The Geneva Conference of 1954 stated that Vietnam would conduct free *Democratic National Elections* in 1956. The U.S. refused to allow it to happen and instead sent troops to occupy the country and wage war against the Vietnamese people.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 2, 2021)

There is a documentary on WWI showing the young men called to serve and they were all laughing and celebrating. It is sickening to see knowing what was waiting for them. If it weren't for _young_ people there would be no wars. There is the story about the military deciding whether or not to release films of the American dead on D-Day for fear of a reduction in recruiting. They decided to show the films in theaters across America and recruiting tanked to an all time low.


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## Verisure (Jul 2, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> There is a documentary on WWI showing the young men called to serve and they were all laughing and celebrating. It is sickening to see knowing what was waiting for them. If it weren't for _young_ people there would be no wars. There is the story about the military deciding whether or not to release films of the American dead on D-Day for fear of a reduction in recruiting. They decided to show the films in theaters across America and recruiting tanked to an all time low.


Yes.  Yes.  Yes.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 3, 2021)

North Vietnam was aggressively infiltrating the South. The military problem was the North could not be invaded. It would have ignited WWIII. The US had to resort to bombing, the North, which is not all that effective. militarily, it was what would have happen , during WWII, if the allies stopped their invasion at the German boarder.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 3, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> North Vietnam was aggressively infiltrating the South. The military problem was the North could not be invaded. It would have ignited WWIII. The US had to resort to bombing, the North, which is not all that effective. militarily, it was what would have happen , during WWII, if the allies stopped their invasion at the German boarder. Without a way to inflict serious damage to the North, they could continue to bleed men in  a war of attrition..


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## Pepper (Jul 3, 2021)

Verisure said:


> *There was no war until the U.S. created one.* The Geneva Conference of 1954 stated that Vietnam would conduct free *Democratic National Elections* in 1956. The U.S. refused to allow it to happen and instead sent troops to occupy the country and wage war against the Vietnamese people.


That's right.


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## cdestroyer (Jul 3, 2021)

&(*$&%^$&*  I am really getting tired of you anti war &(&% that think you know it all about Vietnam and the ideas/faults behind southeast asia....get a *&($&^() life for chits sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pepper (Jul 3, 2021)

Like my son asked "When will your generation stop fighting over Vietnam?"  My answer "When we're dead."
I've enjoyed meeting many vets on this site.  We shared a bad experience, no matter what your point of view.  
Peace, man.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jul 3, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> North Vietnam was aggressively infiltrating the South. The military problem was the North could not be invaded. It would have ignited WWIII. The US had to resort to bombing, the North, which is not all that effective. militarily, it was what would have happen , during WWII, if the allies stopped their invasion at the German boarder.





The 1954 Accords which partitioned Vietnam was to be temporary only.  At no point did anyone in Vietnam consent to a permanent partition the way the USA and its puppet regime in Saigon demanded.  Ho Chi Minh and his forces fought to liberate the South from the colonialist regime imposed by Washington DC.  He and his forces got majority support from the southern people and that is how he readily defeated the imperialist forces.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jul 3, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> _For the first time in Australian history, the nation’s troops received *no universal embrace* when they returned home. *When that long war ended for Australia in 1972, Vietnam veterans were given no welcome home march.* No cheering, no bunting. It left a legacy of bitterness and confusion that claimed more lives through alcoholism and suicide._





My dad (born in 1911) spent 20+ years in the Merchant Marines and Navy.  He served in the South Pacific during WW II.  Some of his johnnies (sailor's terms for brothers) were assigned to the Indianapolis.  When my dad returned to Brooklyn, NY after the war he sought a job as a dock worker.  He was told  "we don't hire s_____s"  (the insulting term used for Hispanics).  After sacrificing 20 years of his life for his country he was still nothing more than a third class citizen.  Other browns and blacks suffered the same fate and worse.  That's just the way it always was.


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## Nathan (Jul 3, 2021)

Here's the F'n "glory" we reap from war:



Those guys in the caskets are at peace, the rest of us that went to 'nam....not so much.


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## Verisure (Jul 3, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Here's the F'n "glory" we reap from war:
> 
> View attachment 172120
> 
> Those guys in the caskets are at peace, the rest of us that went to 'nam....not so much.


I'm still not completely over it.


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## Verisure (Jul 3, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> My dad (born in 1911) spent 20+ years in the Merchant Marines and Navy.  He served in the South Pacific during WW II.  Some of his johnnies (sailor's terms for brothers) were assigned to the Indianapolis.  When my dad returned to Brooklyn, NY after the war he sought a job as a dock worker.  He was told  "we don't hire s_____s"  (the insulting term used for Hispanics).  After sacrificing 20 years of his life for his country he was still nothing more than a third class citizen.  Other browns and blacks suffered the same fate and worse.  That's just the way it always was.


Man, that burns my ass. I am fully aware that such things happen but when I hear about it I get angry every time. Then there's the *Tuskegee Experiment* where the VA Hospital allowed black veterans to die of syphilis (and apparently infect others in the meantime) without any treatment or even telling them what ailment they had just for the purpose of observing & documenting the effects of syphilis untreated. Eventually, they even started to inject people with syphilis who were healthy. They continued doing that right up until 1972. What bastards! There's more if you want to know.


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## oldman (Jul 12, 2021)

I went out for my usual walk this morning when I came upon another man walking and wearing the familiar "Vietnam Veteran" cap. I started speaking with him and he told me about a few experiences that he had over there. He told me one story about being in Saigon one night and getting drunk and disorderly and being arrested by the MP's. He said one of them was a Sergeant and he beat the crap out of him for no reason. He said that he just started pounding on him when they got outside. I asked him what he said or did and he replied, "Nothing!" 

Is he to be believed?


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## Verisure (Jul 12, 2021)

oldman said:


> I went out for my usual walk this morning when I came upon another man walking and wearing the familiar "Vietnam Veteran" cap. I started speaking with him and he told me about a few experiences that he had over there. He told me one story about being in Saigon one night and getting drunk and disorderly and being arrested by the MP's. He said one of them was a Sergeant and he beat the crap out of him for no reason. He said that he just started pounding on him when they got outside. I asked him what he said or did and he replied, "Nothing!"
> 
> Is he to be believed?


What's to believe? What's not to believe? I experienced things during the war in Vietnam that I don't want to tell you about because you might not believe me. That guy getting the crap knocked out of him for "doing nothing" is easier to believe than the massacre at My Lai or the lie about the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin. And what does the guy have to benefit from lying about being beaten by the MP's? That's the question.


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## oldman (Jul 12, 2021)

Verisure said:


> What's to believe? What's not to believe? I experienced things during the war in Vietnam that I don't want to tell you about because you might not believe me. That guy getting the crap knocked out of him for "doing nothing" is easier to believe than the massacre at My Lai or the lie about the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin. And what does the guy have to benefit from lying about being beaten by the MP's? That's the question.


You may be right, but he sounded very unsure of what he was talking about and it just came out different than most others I have heard. Maybe you had to be there. Some people do sensationalize their stories. It's like catching a six inch trout and making it sound like an eighteen inch Pike.


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## Frogfur (Jul 12, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> View attachment 132384
> 
> View attachment 132385
> 
> ...


I'm former Marine Corps, 0811 and a Vietnam Veteran. I wish we'd move on. Its all water under the bridge. Posts like this just bring back memories I don't need.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 12, 2021)

The entire subject has nothing to be proud of. *Why even include it on this forum?*


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## Verisure (Jul 12, 2021)

oldman said:


> You may be right, but he sounded very unsure of what he was talking about and it just came out different than most others I have heard. *Maybe you had to be there.* Some people do sensationalize their stories. It's like catching a six inch trout and making it sound like an eighteen inch Pike.


I'm sure of that.


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## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> All wars are bad but the Vietnam war just seemed particularly cruel to everyone except the profiteers.


The law doesn't allow that much truth in a single sentence.


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## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

911 said:


> To this day, I would like to hear Lt. Calley's version of what happened during the My Lai Massacre. Not that it would matter any to me, but I often wonder if what the government presented as evidence of his wrong doings, if it was all true. My reason is because as I read the stories surrounding this event, I learned that  a lot of the evidence presented was strictly hearsay testimony and even testimony from witnesses that reported on what they heard. A lot of unanswered questions for me to be able to put it to rest.


Crap was the order of the day in every one of my 367 Army days in the Vietnam War. I could turn the lights off, put a burlap sack over my head and punch out in all directions and hit a *"bad guy"* every time. If you were there then you know what I am talking about and if you weren't there then I can find no way to describe it for you. So ...... what could  Lt. Calley tell you? Lots. But the only honest reply he can ever, ever, ever make is, *"It seemed like the right thing to do at the time."* Maybe he'll tell you that someday.


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## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Here's the F'n "glory" we reap from war:
> 
> View attachment 172120
> 
> Those guys in the caskets are at peace, the rest of us that went to 'nam....not so much.


Inside of those hundred boxes or so you will find every race, colour, and creed. I knew there were some awful things being committed in the US during that time ... in the name of racism & anti-Semitism ... but what really pissed me off is that there were some of us who were just as racist while in the "Nam". Obviously, America didn't educate its sons and daughters very well back then and it looks like nothing has improved even to this very day.


----------



## Alligatorob (Jul 13, 2021)

An unfortunate time, brought out a lot of the worst in the country, and some good.  Not enough good to have been even close to worth it though.  I was lucky, had a very high number so avoided the draft - had lots of friends and family not so fortunate.

To all the vets reading this, thank you for your service!  I know for many of you its belated, but I do appreciate what you did.  Putting yourself and your life on the line for the rest of us is  something that needs to be recognized and appreciated.  No matter the wisdom or lack of it from our leaders at the time...


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 13, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Here's the F'n "glory" we reap from war:
> 
> View attachment 172120
> 
> Those guys in the caskets are at peace, the rest of us that went to 'nam....not so much.


It wasn't all "John Wayne" moments in the war, with bayonets between their teeth, and flags flying. It was also death, destructions, inhuman violence, and tragedy- the horrors of war that last a life time. These honored are the men, whom we never can thank enough for their service.


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## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> It wasn't all "John Wayne" moments in the war.....


And in real life, the sun sets in the west in Vietnam, not the East. 


fuzzybuddy said:


> ......  It was also death, destructions, inhuman violence, and tragedy- the horrors of war that last a life time. *These honored are the men, whom we never can thank enough for their service.*


By *"thanking them* (us) *for their* (our) *service" *I suspect that you are ignoring the people they (we) were sent to kill and whose country they (we) destroyed. Please tell me that your words were only inadvertently selective.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jul 13, 2021)

The war that shouldn't have been. And those vets didn't get the treatment nor help they deserved when they got home. It's a damned shame!


----------



## mellowyellow (Jul 13, 2021)

While visiting the White House, our then Prime Minister Harold Holt proclaimed that he was "all the way with LBJ", a remark which was poorly received at home.  Our NSW Premier also fell over himself when Lyndon Johnson visited Sydney.  The theory was (and believed) that communism needed to be wiped out and there would be a domino effect if Australia didn't watch out.  So they proceeded to pull names out of a hat and our poor unsuspecting boys went off to war they didn't understand or care about.


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## FastTrax (Jul 13, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Taken from the U.S. Naval Institute after top secret files were de-classified in 2008.
> 
> Historians have long suspected that the second attack in the Gulf of Tonkin never occurred and that the resolution was based on faulty evidence. But no declassified information had suggested that McNamara, Johnson, or anyone else in the decision-making process had intentionally misinterpreted the intelligence concerning the 4 August incident. More than 40 years after the events, that all changed with the release of the nearly 200 documents related to the Gulf of Tonkin incident and transcripts from the Johnson Library.
> 
> ...





oldiebutgoody said:


> Back then there was no indication that the news media engaged in fakery.  But the government clearly did.
> 
> By contrast, when Bush faked news of WMD in Iraq, the American media refused to publish the *Downing Street Memo* like the British press did.   There, clearly the controlled pro war news media did report fake news in the USA.  Publication of the Memo is what led to the immediate downfall of the Tony Blair regime in the UK as well as the end of Aznar regime in Spain.   Had the media reported it in the USA, Bush would also have lost his position in the White House.
> 
> ...





Verisure said:


> That's often a difficult question to answer. The reporter. The editor. The boss. The owner. Industrial-Political coercion? We can say that I name them in reverse order of importance. Independent journalism? Where is it? Where was it? Julian Assange can tell us but he's been gaged and muzzled. The next time he surfaces I wouldn't be surprised to learn and he's had his tongue and fingers amputated.
> 
> But to answer your question as best as possible it was the Washington Post (back then, mind!!!!!) that dared print the truth while no one else did ... so you're probably right about the press being accomplices in the dirty deeds of the Whine Hose and Pentagram.



I seriously believed the America Forces were actually winning the Vietnam War with very little impact from the NVA however the constant casualty count appeared to be too well scripted. 153 Vietcong killed and American casualties were light. Never a number seemingly as accurate as the NVA body count. I wasn't there but just my take on what I read and watched.

Truth tell.











www.democracynow.org/2009/9/16/the_most_dangerous_man_in_america

www.hudson.org/research/14134-the-tet-offensive-revisited-media-s-big-lie

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB48/supreme.html

www.time.com/4839971/trump-media-press-enemy-vietnam-war/

www.americanhistoryprojects.com/downloads/vietnam.htm

www.npr.org/2021/06/18/1007573283/how-the-pentagon-papers-changed-public-perception-of-the-war-in-vietnam

www.history.com/topics/vietnam-war/pentagon-papers

www.mckendree.edu/academics/scholars/issue3/dahm.htm

www.historynet.com/magazines/mag-vietnam

www.thevietnamese.org/2019/11/the-pleasant-lies/

https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1218&context=honors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_news_media_and_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers


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## mellowyellow (Jul 13, 2021)

Lots of good stuff here, thanks FastTrax

I think that we (the public) was mostly unaware of what was going on in Vietnam, or couldn't care less, until suddenly, when we finally found out by bothering to watch the news, we were furious. Today, most of us follow the world news and know what’s happening, so being able to keep us in the dark is now impossible.   When countries begged America to help them from the threat of Communism, as Vietnam and Korea did, you responded, but now with the focus on Taiwan, I know President Biden is sending support in arms, but hopefully he won’t decide to send troops.


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## oldiebutgoody (Jul 13, 2021)

>







That is the opinion of the politically correct right wing crowd.  The reason why the criminally imperialistic war was lost was because it was colonialist, imperialistic, without any justification whatsoever, intended only for the profit of the wealthy elites who made billions in war profits while Americans bled and died, and most importantly - *BECAUSE THE WAR NEVER GOT SUPPORT FROM THE MAJORITY OF THE VIETNAMESE*. The majority of those people fought foreign invaders just like Americans did when the British invaded in the 1770s and in 1812 and just like Polish, Russian, Yugoslavian, and others did when Hitler invaded.  The American invasion of Vietnam had no more justification than did those of Hitler.  There simply is no difference whether you choose to believe it or not.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Jul 13, 2021)

I don't believe the US lost the war because of eroding support at home.  Initially, Americans favored the war, but after years of fighting, with no progress in ending the war, Americans realized  the war was not winnable-our goals were now, "peace with honor". It was the continued carnage from the war, with little to show for it, that  sparked the changed  in American attitudes. I wonder if a lot of the rancor about the War is because so many felt betrayed by US military and political leaders. Just reading the posts, the War is still a white hot. painfully exposed nerve.


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## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> I seriously believed the America Forces were actually winning the Vietnam War ...


Let me see if I can reply to this without exploding, but please bear with me if I do.

1). *Justification*: Has a sufficient and logical explanation ever been given for why the US refused to allow the Geneva Conference of 1954 - stating that Vietnam would conduct Free Democratic National Elections in 1956 - to be held? Was then the American invasion, occupation, and initiation of war in Vietnam legal? 
2). *Weaponry/Ordinance:* Who manufactured it? GM? Colt? etc?
3). *Bartering:* Did the producers get paid for their manufacturing of weaponry/ordinance? Was it a particularly lucrative business?
4). *Payment for weaponry/Ordinance:* Who foot the bill for it? The military? The government? The tax-payers?
5). *Goal:* What would be the purpose of "winning" the war in Vietnam? Raise your hands, please. 
6). *Reasoning:* On what grounds do you base your answer to question nr. 5?


----------



## Verisure (Jul 13, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> The war that shouldn't have been. And those vets didn't get the treatment nor help they deserved when they got home. It's a damned shame!


All true. But wait! In what appears to be an after-thought in 'righting the wrong' against Vietnam Veterans the American people are being encouraged to award veterans a *"thank you for your service!"* - sort of like a _"Hi! How are you today! Have a nice day!"_ What does this simple nicety really mean? Think about it. Within that short statement is a whole lot of nonsense between the lines. It says 'the US was a peace-maker standing up for the downtrodden' and also "thank you" for something you've provided for the benefit of the person(s) who is greeting you. But what might that be? What thank-worthy service did we provide? We ravaged an innocent country and its inhabitants that was no threat to the US. In fact, Vietnam admired the US and had considered the US a fine model of justice up until the US sabotaged the free national elections set to be conducted in 1956, an election that had been internationally approved of and praised by the United Nations as an event of great humanitarian-political achievement that had hitherto been denied the Vietnamese people by the Japanese and the French. So, Vietnam was to be further held hostage by a string of "bad guys" in turn: Japanese - French - and now Americans. 

In conclusion, thanking Vietnam veterans [in that simple manner] is a fluff-off of the guilt many Vietnam veterans feel for what we did in Vietnam, both as individuals *BUT MOSTLY* for what we did as representatives of American treachery. I cannot speak for everyone, naturally, but it is having been an active participant in the ravage of the innocent men, women, and children of Vietnam that I have had to deal with, and "thanking me" for it makes the guilt worse. What then should be said if not *"thank you for your service"*? I don't know. Is there a way to express sympathy without getting mushy? How about a hand-shake without words? Yes, I like that. In actual fact, whenever I meet someone who fought for the NVA or the NLF (*derogatorily* called 'Vietcong') rather than words they take my hand in both of theirs'. That's all, but the emotion they impart is one of brotherhood and _"I understand"_. Those are the *only moments* in my life when I feel compassion for my experience in Vietnam. And think of it ..... from my former so-called enemy!


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## Verisure (Jul 14, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> .....  When countries begged America to help them from the threat of Communism, as Vietnam .....


Excuse me? Where did you get that idea?


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## FastTrax (Jul 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Let me see if I can reply to this without exploding, but please bear with me if I do.
> 
> 1). *Justification*: Has a sufficient and logical explanation ever been given for why the US refused to allow the Geneva Conference of 1954 - stating that Vietnam would conduct Free Democratic National Elections in 1956 - to be held? Was then the American invasion, occupation, and initiation of war in Vietnam legal?
> 2). *Weaponry/Ordinance:* Who manufactured it? GM? Colt? etc?
> ...



I thought I made it very clear in my post that I wasn't in Vietnam during  the war but my post reflected my take on the information that was available to me at the time. Either way I seriously apologize for any offense you may have taken from my contribution to the Military Veterans Subforum. I will never interfere on this Subforum posting inaccurate and/or inflammatory information. You have my word on that. Good day all.


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## oldman (Jul 14, 2021)

I appreciated the boys flying the F-4's coming in and allowing us to safely pull back before they laid down Napalm during two different incursions with the enemy.


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## Verisure (Jul 14, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> I thought I made it very clear in my post that I wasn't in Vietnam during  the war but my post reflected my take on the information that was available to me at the time. Either way I seriously apologize for any offense you may have taken from my contribution to the Military Veterans Subforum. I will never interfere on this Subforum posting inaccurate and/or inflammatory information. You have my word on that. Good day all.


Hold on, big buddy! I take no offense to your input, and the *"information that was available to you" *was (is?) the very same *"information"* that was available to EVERYONE. How could you know what I or any other veteran feels or believes? You can't. So don't take the opposing view personally. Anyway, _"you may think"_  or _"one may think"_ is the same thing.    My comments were not directed to/at you. I only took the opportunity to reply to your statement,_* "I seriously believed the America Forces were actually winning the Vietnam War"*_ but I responded to all those who have the same notion. There are so many. Get back on the horse, good friend - come back!    My reply was a more detailed and personal definition of the Military-Industrial Complex regarding Vietnam, put together in my simple-minded fashion. I wanted only to say that there was no "winning strategy" in the Vietnam War because "winning" was never the goal in the first place. *Perpetual business* was the only prize. 

I apologize for giving you the wrong impression that I held you responsible for anything. No - no - no.


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## cdestroyer (Jul 14, 2021)

let us consider some things as to the military conflict in southeast asia, the so called war... up until that time most education at the military academies was aimed at war in europe where we had the greatest amount of deployed forces...compare the topography of the two,,,,europe.. open or forested acres,,,southeast asia,, dense jungle. both had mountainous areas, but being taught to fight when you can see the enemy on the far hill is far different than peering through jungle foliage...forested or open grazing land is much easier to fight in then creeping through thick brush jungle...so lets be real and consider that these were two differenty types of warfare...........


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## squatting dog (Jul 14, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> let us consider some things as to the military conflict in southeast asia, the so called war... up until that time most education at the military academies was aimed at war in europe where we had the greatest amount of deployed forces...compare the topography of the two,,,,europe.. open or forested acres,,,southeast asia,, dense jungle. both had mountainous areas, but being taught to fight when you can see the enemy on the far hill is far different than peering through jungle foliage...forested or open grazing land is much easier to fight in then creeping through thick brush jungle...so lets be real and consider that these were two differenty types of warfare...........


Absolutely...


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## squatting dog (Jul 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Inside of those hundred boxes or so you will find every race, colour, and creed. I knew there were some awful things being committed in the US during that time ... in the name of racism & anti-Semitism ... but what really pissed me off is that there were some of us who were just as racist while in the "Nam". Obviously, America didn't educate its sons and daughters very well back then and it looks like nothing has improved even to this very day.


Can't speak for others, but, we all bled the same color red and you had to trust your brothers to have your back. 
Heading for Cambodia incursion... which by the way could have ended that war had not the greedy politicians feared losing their money train.


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## Verisure (Jul 14, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Can't speak for others, but, we all bled the same color red and you had to trust your brothers to have your back.


Absolutely. But there were enough racists to piss me off anyway.


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## FastTrax (Jul 14, 2021)

Verisure I owe you my sincerest apology. Against my better judgement sometimes my skin get's a little too thin for it's own good. No harm intended no harm done. Take care my friend.


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## Verisure (Jul 14, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> Verisure I owe you my sincerest apology. Against my better judgement sometimes my skin get's a little too thin for it's own good. No harm intended no harm done. Take care my friend.


Beautiful words from you. Thank you very much, friend!


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## FastTrax (Jul 14, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Beautiful words from you. Thank you very much, friend!



No problem, enjoy your night.


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## PamfromTx (Jul 14, 2021)




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## Verisure (Jul 14, 2021)

*“Sometime they’ll give a war and nobody will come.” *Carl Sandburg 1878 - 1967

I wonder when that will be?


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

PamfromTx said:


> View attachment 173818


I am biting my tongue.


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## oldman (Jul 15, 2021)

For years, I have thought about the 300,000 men and women that have died from agent orange, not to mention their families that also suffered a loss. Put that number with the 58,000 that were killed in combat and you would have thought the total number would have reflected towards a larger war than what it was.

I had two friends that died from AO. One from liver cancer and one from esophageal cancer. Both suffered tremendously for months and after every visit to to see them, I would leave with tears in my eyes and thinking, "There but for the grace of God go I." At my closest friend's funeral, the choir sang two songs, "Amazing Grace" and "Rock of Ages." Both songs were heart-breaking to sit through. Isn't it funny how we remember things like that?


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

oldman said:


> For years, I have thought about the *300,000 men and women* that have died from *agent orange*, not to mention their families that also suffered a loss. ....


That figure is not even close. The number of* 4 million* is more of the truth and half a million children have been born with serious birth defects,


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## oldman (Jul 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That figure is not even close. The number of* 4 million* is more of the truth.


I don't think four million have died from AO. I wasn't aware that the U.S. sent four million men and women over to Vietnam.


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

oldman said:


> I don't think four million have died from AO. I wasn't aware that the U.S. sent four million men and women over to Vietnam.


It looks like you are saying that the Vietnamese don't matter (that you don't give a shit about them) but I must be misunderstanding you, right?


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## cdestroyer (Jul 15, 2021)

going 'up river' was not as comfortable and many might think. I don't have a photo of a deck loaded with ammo but you can imagine 325 tons of 155mm howitzer ammo filling these holds and stacked on top and why you would not want anyone shooting at you..

we delivered just about anything that was needed by the bases in the delta and down at anthoi in the gulf of thailand

support lst at song ong doc off the ca mau area


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> going 'up river' was not as comfortable and many might think. I don't have a photo of a deck loaded with ammo but you can imagine 325 tons of 155mm howitzer ammo filling these holds and stacked on top and why you would not want anyone shooting at you..
> View attachment 173888
> we delivered just about anything that was needed by the bases in the delta and down at anthoi in the gulf of thailand
> View attachment 173889
> support lst at song ong doc off the ca mau area


Did you have _swift boat_ escorts?


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## oldman (Jul 15, 2021)

Verisure said:


> It looks like you are saying that the Vietnamese don't matter (that you don't give a shit about them) but I must be misunderstanding you, right?


What? About 300,000 military people from the U.S. have died as the result of being in contact with agent orange. That’s what is being reported by the VA.

Please stop being coercive. SF is a friendly place. We don’t assume anything and we allow posters the opportunity to explain themselves without trying to make them out to be the bad guy. We are all friends here.


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

oldman said:


> What? About 300,000 military people from the U.S. have died as the result of being in contact with agent orange. That’s what is being reported by the VA.
> 
> Please stop being coercive. SF is a friendly place. We don’t assume anything and we allow posters the opportunity to explain themselves without trying to make them out to be the bad guy. We are all friends here.


Yes, I agree, SF is a friendly place. It is also international. It is not "American" Senior Forum.  I'm sitting here right now thinking, _'should I have responded to your earlier post ... or not?' _Sometimes I think so and sometimes I don't. I'll let you be the judge. Here is my position: We murdered so many innocent Vietnamese who never did anything to us unless you think defending their country is an aggressive act. You may want to say we killed them in self-defense so it wasn't"murder" but we didn't belong there. It wasn't our country. You mention _"trying to make them out to be the bad guy"_ but I don't know who you mean by _"them"_. Make no mistake, we were the bad guys. I can give you many reasons why that is true but you probably don't want to get that involved with the dialogue. That's OK, I can understand. Try to understand me. AGENT ORANGE killed more than one generation of Vietnamese people so when someone singles out the unfortunate death of a mere 300,000  Americans ... by mistake, I am ALSO thinking about the Vietnamese who were subjected to the full force of Agent Orange ..... on purpose.   As I said, this is an international forum for "seniors", not 'American seniors'. I wonder if there might a Vietnamese senior on this forum. Have you considered that possibility? Do you still think my response was coercive? If I haven't impressed you maybe I've at least given you some food for thought. Your opinion - My opinion, hmmmmm.


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Jul 15, 2021)

I was in junior high as the last US troops pulled out of Vietnam. Looking back on those years, there is a lot of irony to what happened back then and where America is right now. We killed over one million communists during the course of that war, and yet this country is fast becoming that which we fought. We didn't stop the communists then nor can we stop them now.


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## Pepper (Jul 15, 2021)

Oy vay.


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## Pepper (Jul 15, 2021)

@Verisure 
I like the cut of your jib


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

Pepper said:


> @Verisure
> I like the cut of your jib


Telling the truth about the War ( Oh! Excuse me! The "Conflict") in Vietnam is my mitzva.


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## Verisure (Jul 15, 2021)

Time Waits 4 No Man said:


> I was in junior high as the last US troops pulled out of Vietnam. Looking back on those years, there is a lot of irony to what happened back then and where America is right now. We killed over one million communists during the course of that war, and yet this country is fast becoming that which we fought. We didn't stop the communists then nor can we stop them now.


Don't cry. "The Communists" (as you call them) haven't killed all of the Capitalists yet either.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 15, 2021)

About '69-70, I was a Corpsman, stationed at the Naval Hospital Eye Clinic, at Bethesda, MD. That was the place they sent all blinded Marines, and other personnel.  Their ward was right above the clinic. When a newly blind soldier was admitted, he was shown where the latrine was, and his bed. If he wanted to eat he had to get to the dining room, two stories down. All the hospital staff were told that they could give directions to those men, but under no circumstance were we to physically help them. My mind still sees 18,19, 20 year old guys feeling the walls on their way to the chow hall. God, that tore me up. It seemed cruel at first, but in about a month the men, with white canes, were hopping on busses, going to DC. getting drunk, etc. I think the Vietnam War was the first TV war. You can debate the causes, the tactics, the politics, the circumstances, but there's no debating the death and destruction on your TV screen, and those blinded in Bethesda.


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## squatting dog (Jul 15, 2021)

And as the song go's. "When I'm not chasing demon's... the demon's chasing me".


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> About '69-70, I was a Corpsman, stationed at the Naval Hospital Eye Clinic, at Bethesda, MD. That was the place they sent all blinded Marines, and other personnel.  Their ward was right above the clinic. When a newly blind soldier was admitted, he was shown where the latrine was, and his bed. If he wanted to eat he had to get to the dining room, two stories down. All the hospital staff were told that they could give directions to those men, but under no circumstance were we to physically help them. My mind still sees 18,19, 20 year old guys feeling the walls on their way to the chow hall. God, that tore me up. It seemed cruel at first, but in about a month the men, with white canes, were hopping on busses, going to DC. getting drunk, etc. I think the Vietnam War was the first TV war. You can debate the causes, the tactics, the politics, the circumstances, but there's no debating the death and destruction on your TV screen, and those blinded in Bethesda.


I deeply feel your compassion.


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> let us consider some things as to the military conflict in southeast asia, the so called war... up until that time most education at the military academies was aimed at war in europe where we had the greatest amount of deployed forces...compare the topography of the two,,,,europe.. open or forested acres,,,southeast asia,, dense jungle. both had mountainous areas, but being taught to fight when you can see the enemy on the far hill is far different than peering through jungle foliage...forested or open grazing land is much easier to fight in then creeping through thick brush jungle...so lets be real and consider that these were two differenty types of warfare...........


I'm not sure of your implication. Fort Polk training camp was located in swampy and humid terrain that was similar to Vietnam and that - *intentionally* -  is where most Army infantrymen were trained and made prepared-ready to ship off to Vietnam. So when you say, *"... education at the military academies was aimed at war in europe" *... this is not really true.


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## mellowyellow (Jul 16, 2021)

We were told all about the domino theory and I have no reason to doubt it.

_Domino Theory_​_A team sent by President John F. Kennedy in 1961 to report on conditions in South Vietnam advised a build-up of American military, economic and technical aid in order to help Diem confront the Viet Cong threat.

Working under the “domino theory,” which held that if one Southeast Asian country fell to communism, many other countries would follow, Kennedy increased U.S. aid, though he stopped short of committing to a large-scale military intervention.

By 1962, the U.S. military presence in South Vietnam had reached some 9,000 troops, compared with fewer than 800 during the 1950s._


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> We were told all about the domino theory and I have no reason to doubt it.
> 
> _Domino Theory_​_A team sent by President John F. Kennedy in 1961 to report on conditions in South Vietnam advised a build-up of American military, economic and technical aid in order to help Diem confront the Viet Cong threat.
> 
> ...


The "domino theory" was a huge scam concocted by the US/CIA but fundamentally by the machinery of the Military-Industrial Complex in order to justify the taxpayer footing the bill and committing boys who were 19-years-olds (as I was) to an* illegal war. Yes - ILLEGAL.*


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## cdestroyer (Jul 16, 2021)

no verisure I dont believe an army officer would be crawling thru the "tigerland" with "infantrymen". most likely standing on a knoll watching 'his men'! As I recall gen westmoreland told the president if he had 250,000 troops he could win that war! (pardon me,say what?)


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Jul 16, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Don't cry. "The Communists" (as you call them) haven't killed all of the Capitalists yet either.


I would respond but I don't understand your comment; just what "communists" and what "capitalists" are you referring to? 

Another point: I did not arbitrarily call the North Vietnamese "communists" - that was the US government who gave them that designation.

Besides, does present day Vietnam self-identify as "communist"? This photo, taken just this year (2021) should answer that question:

*HANOI, VIETNAM - 2021*





​


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## Pepper (Jul 16, 2021)

So what?  It's called Self Determination.


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

Time Waits 4 No Man said:


> I would respond but I don't understand your comment; just what "communists" and what "capitalists" are you referring to?
> 
> Another point: I did not arbitrarily call the North Vietnamese "communists" - that was the US government who gave them that designation.
> 
> ...


You said, 

*"We killed over one million communists during the course of that war, and yet this country is fast becoming that which we fought. We didn't stop the communists then nor can we stop them now."*

It is unclear if by saying *"this country"* you mean Vietnam or the US. It is also unclear if you (personally) think that Communism should be stopped or if you admire Communism for its steadfastness and/or achievements.


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

Pepper said:


> So what?  It's called Self Determination.


Indeed it is.


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## mellowyellow (Jul 16, 2021)

The lucky ones got out and were called the Vietnamese Boat People. The first boatload of Vietnamese refugees arrived in Australia in 1976 and more than 50 boats carried 2,100 Vietnamese to Australia in the following five years.  They risked their lives to escape Communist rule.


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## Verisure (Jul 16, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 174132
> The lucky ones got out and were called the Vietnamese Boat People. The first boatload of Vietnamese refugees arrived in Australia in 1976 and more than 50 boats carried 2,100 Vietnamese to Australia in the following five years.  *They risked their lives to escape Communist rule.*


No, I don't it is fair to say that.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jul 21, 2021)

I believe the Vietnam War was a war no one wanted, and couldn't get out of. The North knew it would be a war of attrition, with the sacrifice of millions. The South had little support from its own citizens. The US would not let another nation turn "Commie", but couldn't prevent it. The Chinese didn't want a proxy war, but couldn't let the North fail. It was war nobody "won". The cost was way too dear for everybody, and it didn't matter in the long run.


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## Verisure (Jul 21, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> ..... the Vietnam War........ The cost was way too dear for everybody .....


Who do you mean by *"everybody"*? Gazillionaire businessmen and politicians became multi-gazillionaires from the war ... which was the purpose in the first place.


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## FastTrax (Jul 23, 2021)

www.warhistoryonline.com/vietnam-war/ancient-tech-modern-war-punji-sticks.html

https://deadliestwarrior.fandom.com/wiki/Punji_Sticks

www.researchgate.net/publication/17109706_Punji_Stick_wounds_experience_with_342_wounds_in_Vietnam

www.quora.com/Could-punji-sticks-really-penetrate-the-sole-of-a-military-boot-in-jungle-warfare-just-how-dangerous-were-the-inflicted-wounds-if-not-treated-promptly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punji_stick


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## Verisure (Jul 23, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> View attachment 175121
> 
> View attachment 175122
> 
> ...


It was the Vietnamese response to our use of the M1 Garand, M1 carbine, M14, M16, M60, M79 grenade launcher, the M48A3 'Patton' tank, the M67A1 flamethrower tank, the M102 howitzer, surface-to-air missiles, Huey helicopters, Chinook helicopters, M61 Vulcan cannons, B-52 bombers, F-4 Phantom fighter jet planes, napalm, Agent Orange, and a whole lot of modern weaponry, and … of course … the fact that we had illegally invaded their country. The good news is that we lost the war and the ”good guys” won.


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## Verisure (Jul 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Breaks my heart... so many were just kids.


I was 19.


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## squatting dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I was 19.


Same here.


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## Verisure (Jul 24, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Same here.


Now that we're older it seems unfair that they sent us "kids" to war.  We were just teenagers ... not old enough to drink or vote but old enough in Vietnam to drink, kill, die, and get the clap.


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## squatting dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Now that we're older it seems unfair that they sent us "kids" to war.  We were just teenagers ... not old enough to drink or vote but old enough in Vietnam to drink, kill, die, and get the clap.


True that. Here it is, 50 years later and I'm still dealing with the demons. 
Was a sad day when I figured out that our government (whom I trusted), lied to us and caused needless death and destruction.


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## Verisure (Jul 24, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> True that. Here it is, 50 years later and I'm still dealing with the demons.
> Was a sad day when I figured out that our government (whom I trusted), lied to us and caused needless death and destruction.


I'm with you on that. It was 54 years ago when I took my seat on the freedom bird back to the world. All I have left is this mental rock in my gut for the reasons you've just mentioned. I went back in 1999 just to say "sorry". I couldn't find anyone to say it to so I went up to the giant Budha on the hill near Nha Trang where I used to discreetly go AWOL for a day or two (back then) and return without anyone noticing.  I think I saw Buddha smile at me when I told him I was sorry .... so I'm OK now.


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## squatting dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I'm with you on that. It was 54 years ago when I took my seat on the freedom bird back to the world. All I have left is this mental rock in my gut for the reasons you've just mentioned. I went back in 1999 just to say "sorry". I couldn't find anyone to say it to so I went up to the giant Budha on the hill near Nha Trang where I used to discreetly go AWOL for a day or two (back then) and return without anyone noticing.  I think I saw Budah smile at me when I told him I was sorry .... so I'm OK now.


Never got over that way. Glad you are ok now.  Got this map for you. 

http://www.rjsmith.com/Nha_Trang_Complete_01.html


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## Verisure (Jul 24, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Never got over that way. Glad you are ok now.  Got this map for you.
> 
> http://www.rjsmith.com/Nha_Trang_Complete_01.html


Wow! Thanks! How did you find that time-period map? I used to go to Nha Trang whenever I had the chance. It was nice and quiet ... except for the bars.  The Buddha is just about where marker 1 is on the map.


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## squatting dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Wow! Thanks! How did you find that time-period map? I used to go to Nha Trang whenever I had the chance. It was nice and quiet ... except for the bars.  The Buddha is just about where marker 1 is on the map.
> 
> View attachment 175263




Heard of the guy who got hold of these maps during a therapy session. Lot's of good info there.  Iron triangle was basically my AO.

http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html


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## Verisure (Jul 24, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Heard of the guy who got hold of these maps during a therapy session. Lot's of good info there.  Iron triangle was basically my AO.
> 
> http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html


Now I know who to ask.  The only thing I know about the south was flying into Saigon and getting my first taste of that awful "recombined milk"! Phooey! I never touched it again.


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## Verisure (Jul 24, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Heard of the guy who got hold of these maps during a therapy session. Lot's of good info there.  Iron triangle was basically my AO.
> 
> http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html


Can anyone access those? There are two more maps that I'd really, really, really, really, really, really like to find.


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## squatting dog (Jul 25, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Can anyone access those? There are two more maps that I'd really, really, really, really, really, really like to find.


If you go to that link, and scroll down, you'll see a whole lot of maps. He doesn't sell maps, but, bookmark the page and your good to go. I know it has helped me remember names of long forgotten villages.


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## Verisure (Jul 25, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> If you go to that link, and scroll down, you'll see a whole lot of maps. He doesn't sell maps, but, bookmark the page and your good to go. I know it has helped me remember names of long forgotten villages.


Thank you! I'm on my way! I too have forgotten many things. Terms for example ... I remember what "being short" and ETS meant but I don't remember if they applied to discharge or leaving Vietnam ... or both. I do recall getting our port call three days before leaving Vietnam, giving us those three days to "clear base", in other words, "three days and a wake-up!"

EDIT: I found the two maps I was looking for! I wanted to thank Ray personally but his "E-Mail Me" button doesn't seem to be in service. Thanks, bro!


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## squatting dog (Jul 27, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Thank you! I'm on my way! I too have forgotten many things. Terms for example ... I remember what "being short" and ETS meant but I don't remember if they applied to discharge or leaving Vietnam ... or both. I do recall getting our port call three days before leaving Vietnam, giving us those three days to "clear base", in other words, "three days and a wake-up!"
> 
> EDIT: I found the two maps I was looking for! I wanted to thank Ray personally but his "E-Mail Me" button doesn't seem to be in service. Thanks, bro!


Yeah, his email hasn't worked for some time. Some of us just come and go I guess. I'm just glad he left the site up and I hope he's well.


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## Verisure (Jul 27, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Yeah, his email hasn't worked for some time. Some of us just come and go I guess. I'm just glad he left the site up and I hope he's well.


I hear ya'.


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## Manatee (Aug 20, 2021)

Sassycakes said:


> *Brings back such sad memories from friends we lost during that war. Thankfully my husband was in the Navy and didn't serve in Vietnam. *


The ship that I served on did go to Vietnam where it served as a floating base for riverine boats.  That was years after my time.  By that time I was a civilian with a wife, 2 kids and a mortgage.  I tell folks that I am a Navy veteran, not a war veteran.


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

FastTrax said:


> View attachment 132384
> 
> View attachment 132385
> 
> ...



Vietnam Archive: 1


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## RFW (Feb 4, 2022)

FastTrax said:


> Vietnam Archive: 1


Morning, Trax!


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## Verisure (Feb 4, 2022)

*4 videos that bring us Vietnam Veterans back to earth .... and finally let us breathe: *


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

RFW said:


> Morning, Trax!



Good morning to you, hmmm well it's like 11:54PM. Okay RFW, here's some more stuff.

www.vietvet.org/glossary.htm

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War

www.pritzkermilitary.org/explore/vietnam-war/vietnam-equipment

www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/vietnam-weapons-war/

www.wearethemighty.com/popular/strange-weapons-of-vietnam/

www.warhistoryonline.com/vietnam-war/vietnam-war-weaponry.html

www.vietnamgear.com/equipment.aspx?cat=12

www.robertankony.com/lurps-gallery/

www.history.net/life-and-death-on-a-long-range-reconpatrol.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Government_of_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/viet_Cong


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/this-is-why-the-bouncing-betty-was-absolutely-devastating/

www.quora.com/Could-US-soldiers-keep-their-weapons-after-the-Vietnam-war-or-did-have-to-turn-them-in

www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-unique-weapons-of-macv-sogs-covert-commandos-in-vietnam/


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_Vietnam_relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh_trail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Vietnam_War_by_year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Military_history_of_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Army_of_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_the_Republic_of_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_rat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_Air_Force_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_Navy_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_Army_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_Marine_Corps_in_the_Vietnam_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_reconnaissance_patrol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_mines_in_the_Vietnam_War


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## FastTrax (Feb 4, 2022)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekong_Delta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoa_Lo_Prison

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh_City

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Vietnam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombs_in_the_Vietnam_War


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## FastTrax (Feb 5, 2022)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Blue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_White

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Green

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Pink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Purple

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punji_stick


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## jerry old (Feb 5, 2022)

Boy, Trax when you start posting you don't mess around.

Old folks like me still have confusion about that damn Asian War.
You post yesterday www.bygone..... # 35 (the farmer with his dead daughter cradled in his arms, attempting to talk to troops in an APC)
So poignant in these times when the nations appeared determined to rattle their sabers over Ukraine-more innocents killed?

(I'''m slowly working my way through your videos)


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## FastTrax (Feb 6, 2022)

I hear ya jerry old. The girls are starting to get a little jealous of my time consuming internet blather. You know these scamps. It's all or nothing. Life.


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## john19485 (Feb 14, 2022)

Just a letter I wrote home


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## RFW (Feb 14, 2022)

john19485 said:


> Just a letter I wrote home


I didn't realize you must have been only a few months younger than me unless I read it wrong.


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## john19485 (Feb 14, 2022)

RFW said:


> I didn't realize you must have been only a few months younger than me unless I read it wrong.


Yes , I was 17


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## RFW (Feb 14, 2022)

john19485 said:


> Yes , I was 17


Army here. 1969-1970.


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## john19485 (Feb 22, 2022)

just a little from my book


Two weeks back from leave, doing well in Infantry training, one day I walked into the CO's office ta pick up my mail where I'd been told there was a letter for me. Walking in I could tell something was up because the Gunny was personally holding the already open letter and giving me a stern look. Turned out some of the other guys had opened the letter for a joke  because they saw it was from a girl, and  it was. The Gunny quietly handed the letter to me, looking at me expectantly, so I started reading.

It was a letter from my sister Nancy saying she was PREGNANT  It was good news an' I was pleased ta be an Uncle, but was pretty pissed off 'bout the letter being opened. Figuring I better not say anything about it, I clamped my mouth shut an' looked at the Gunny. When he saw I had no comment he told me we had to go in and see the MAJOR.

Naturally I was thinking to myself  What the hell is the big deal 'bout a letter from my sister. I was furious by the time we made it to the Majors office so it was a downright galling and HERCULEAN effort keeping my mouth shut by now. They'd opened my mail an' they were taking ME to the Majors office

Saluting, I stood there stonily silent at full attention while the Gunny explained to the major that the letter indicated I'd gotten my girlfriend pregnant.

My anger all turned to disgust and disbelief in a split second. All I could do was stand there shocked with my mouth open, staring at the Gunny. The Major took the letter an' gave it a cursory glance. I guess he took my shocked look for a confession 'cause then he said,  Well son, for the good of the service you're going to have to go home and marry this girl

My head felt like it spun completely around as I threw an even MORE stunned look at the Major. He was nonplussed an' continued like he was asking for a cup of coffee, "We're giving you another thirty days leave

to get the job done and that's an order.

I was past speechless at this point, but another thirty days leave sounded pretty good to me. Sounded like pretty good payback for opening my mail too. All I could do was shake my head an' blink. Finally snapping back to full attention an' giving an enthusiastic  Aye Aye SIR , I did a crisp ninety degree turn an' marched out the door.

My SQUAD thought I'd lost my mind when I got there 'cause I must' a laughed my head off for 'bout the whole time I was packing . The stewardesses on the flight home kept an eye on me too, since I couldn't help occasionally giggling for no apparent reason.

My whole family was shocked to see me again an' got a big kick outta my "orders". True to my command I did ask my sister ta marry me right at a family dinner with her husband sitting there about busting a gut laughing . She said she appreciated my generous offer, but declined due to the legal complication of bigamy, an' added that she didn't find me very attractive anyway.

Spending the next thirty days doing my best to fulfill the spirit of the Majors order, I dated as many of the girls, in my neighborhood, as possible, in hopes of finding , some marriage material. Not much luck there, but I did have a wonderful time
https://www.amazon.com/John-R.-Mizell/e/B00H9ZSWNQ?ref_=dbs_p_ebk_r00_abau_000000


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