# How Many Terrorist Leaders Were Killed Under President Obama 1st Term in Office?



## SeaBreeze (Feb 11, 2015)

Here's a look at how many terrorist leaders were killed under President Obama in his first term in office. http://realdealtalk.com/how-many-terrorist-leaders-has-president-obama-killed/


*How Many Terrorist Leaders Has President Obama Killed?*

 
*By Andre Michael Eggelletion*
*



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*With the killing of Muammar Qaddafi in Libya today, can the GOP continue to say that President Obama is soft on terrorism? I fear that they probably will, and never give this president any credit for anything. Nonetheless, here is a list of some of the terrorist leaders that have threatened America’s security who have been dispatched during President Obama’s first term of office.
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*      1. Muammar Qaddafi in Libya today
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*2. Osama bin Laden, killed in May 2011.
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*3. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) leader Anwar al-Awlaki.
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*4. Al Qaeda’s chief of Pakistan operations, Abu Hafs al-Shahri, was killed in Waziristan, Pakistan.
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*5. In August, ‘Atiyah ‘Abd al-Rahman, the deputy leader of al Qaeda was killed.
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*6. In June, one of al Qaeda’s most dangerous commanders, Ilyas Kashmiri, was killed in Pakistan.
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*7. In Yemen that same month, three AQAP senior operatives Ammar al-Wa’ili, Abu Ali al-Harithi, and Ali Saleh Farhan were killed.
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*8. In Somalia, Al-Qa’ida in East Africa (AQEA) senior leader Harun Fazul was killed.
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*9. Administration officials also herald the recent U.S./Pakistani joint arrest of Younis al-Mauritani in Quetta.
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*10. Going back to August 2009, Tehrik e-Taliban Pakistan leader Baitullah Mahsud was killed in Pakistan.
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*11. In September 2009, Jemayah Islamiya operational planner Noordin Muhammad Top was killed in Indonesia
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*12. In September 2009 AQEA planner Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan was killed in Somalia.
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*13. In December 2009 in Pakistan, al Qaeda operational commanders Saleh al-Somali and ‘Abdallah Sa’id were killed.
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*14. In February 2010, in Pakistan, Taliban deputy and military commander Abdul Ghani Beradar was captured;
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*15. In February 2010, Haqqani network commander Muhammad Haqqani was killed
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*16. In February 2010, Lashkar-e Jhangvi leader Qari Zafar was killed.
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*17. In March 2010, al Qaeda operative Hussein al-Yemeni was killed in Pakistan
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*18. In March 2010, senior Jemayah Islamiya operative Dulmatin - accused of being the mastermind behind the 2002 Bali bombings – was killed during a raid in Indonesia.
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*19. In April 2010, al Qaeda in Iraq leaders Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Omar al-Baghdadi were killed.
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*20. In May, al Qaeda’s number three commander, Sheik Saeed al-Masri was killed.
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*21. In June 2010 in Pakistan, al Qaeda commander Hamza al-Jawfi was killed.

*
*The GOP can continue to try to fool the American people about President Obama’s ability to advance America’s national security interests all they want. Nonetheless, the truth speaks louder than their lies.*


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

I'm just venturing a guess here, but I don't think Obama can take credit for these "killings".  I don't think him or any president has the power to actually orchestrate this on their own??  President Obama was "put" into power, and if this country is ever at the hands of ONE man to make our decisions, well, I would probably head for a cave.  Hitler had pretty much total power over a people, I think Castro, and probably others.  There's nothing wrong with the GOP except that they disagree with the democrats.  That's what I am seeing.  Of course maybe I'm wrong?  Maybe all the Repuplicans are trash and should be deported, or something?  Make me understand?  Because I don't like Obama, I don't trust him, he hasn't earned my trust, he never did.  Not that anyone else has, it was the lesser of two evils on the last vote for president, for me anyway.


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## ~Lenore (Feb 11, 2015)

*You said that very nicely without anger or insulting anyone who might disagree with you.  I admire your ability to do that.  I also agree with what you said. *


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

I'd sure like to hear about this reason many don't dare admit to as to why they fail to give the President respect or credit?  Is there some secret society here where the rest of us don't get to know?  I mean if it's viable, I'm open to hearing it?? Denise


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## rt3 (Feb 11, 2015)

I think most of them were killed by SEALs, like Chris Kyle, in bin Laden case, I think it was Pinada that gave the go order, Obama is pictured at the end of the table wringing his hands. Most of the others were killed by drones, targeted as such with spy satellites targeted by the NSA, payed for by NASA space funding. It will be interesting to see what happens in the new 3 year program however. It's like the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war pick one. People need a boogeyman.
And yes there are secret societies, probably not here though, most folks here are pretty laid back.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

rt3 said:


> I think most of them were killed by SEALs, like Chris Kyle, in bin Laden case, I think it was Pinada that gave the go order, Obama is pictured at the end of the table wringing his hands. Most of the others were killed by drones, targeted as such with spy satellites targeted by the NSA, payed for by NASA space funding. It will be interesting to see what happens in the new 3 year program however. It's like the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war pick one. People need a boogeyman.
> And yes there are secret societies, probably not here though, most folks here are pretty laid back.



I think most of the people here, including myself, are not smart enough to be part of a secret society, just a lot of hot air floating about.  You are right, Obama, or whoever is pres. is sitting somewhere hoping he got the right info/direction. I'll give credit where credits due, as I see it, not somebody telling me it's true and believing it.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

rt3 said:


> He really doesn't call the shots, in some cases he ok's some actions that are out of normal protocals. As far as putting down the dynamics , wow. It is not possible for one person to take in all the Intel and make the decision, let alone doing the ground work for the event.



Even I get this, I don't get the hero worship.  I've had presidents I liked and respected but I was never falling at their feet thinking they were some sort of God??  What the hell??


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

If Obama calls the shots, then he directed Holder to sell guns to the Mexican cartels. He directed IRS to not allow tax exempt status to any organization against his political agenda. He ignored the V A . Was really to blame for Bengazi, Could go,on. No president is or has been the be everywhere, do everything guy your trying to make him out. As any one in the military or has done contract work knows the Pres. Does NOT sit on every ok. Off shore stuff is politically sensitive so he becomes more involved, to correlate with the state department. One of the reasons the 3 year plan is being brought up, so operations can have more continuity without his more ok's. End of debate. 
Doesn't posture ? Wow! head in sand or more accurately rectalcranialmetamorphism.
I wouldn't want Obama to , or any Pres. To be the superman (or think they were  ala Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon) we would be living in a totalitarian/dictatorship.
I am more impressed with Obama getting rid of Holder, the IRS director, fixing the VA, and his ability to keep government dealings with organized crime quiet than any military stuff.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Isn't it amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid saying anything good about President Obama.



I just consider the sources.... if people insist on plugging into FOX and buying all the other Conservative BS, I'm not really concerned with what they think.  That alone speaks volumes.

But here's one thing I'm pretty sure of...  If Romney had been elected and accomplished a fraction of what President Obama has.. they would be out carving his likeness on Mount Rushmore.


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## Falcon (Feb 12, 2015)

Racism is not the reason I dislike this would be dictator.  It's his philosophical background that should be taken into account by all of us
including the worshippers.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm for giving him all the credit due, even looking the other way. As you want to give him the  Buck stops  Here  bs. do that and not just pick and choose what you want to hear. Since he knew what Holder was up to, selling guns to organized crime in Mexico resulting in the death of a border patrolman he should take the credit for that. An impeachable offense. Take the credit for Bengazi, which he sort of half as every thing else. An impeachable offense. Since he was in control of the IRS he ordered the discrimination against anyone agaist his political agenda. Since he was in control he used executive orders to go around congress. An impeachable offense. (Gotta give the guy credit though he did all that and didn't even need an intern like another pres.) sounds like a man that is in control or gets pissed when he isn't. Sounds more like the mythical astrological Leo. Growls then licks his paw to comb down his mane, always has a plan (half baked).
Don't blame him though, being Pres. Would be a really hard job, only an egotist psychopath would want that kind of misery. Not saying he is the only psychopath pres. That has been in office, we all can learn about how to succeed from psychopaths. There is even a book on it.


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## Jackie22 (Feb 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I just consider the sources.... if people insist on plugging into FOX and buying all the other Conservative BS, I'm not really concerned with what they think.  That alone speaks volumes.
> 
> But here's one thing I'm pretty sure of...  If Romney had been elected and accomplished a fraction of what President Obama has.. they would be out carving his likeness on Mount Rushmore.



LOL...totally true, QS....they continually spew the BS without any proof.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

Hero worship usually evolves along the lines you have outlined, denial. Not a presidents fanboy here, either side, haven' t said anything about racism. You have that confused as usual. Bush family definitely a work of art, if you only knew about some of their other stuff. If your interested in the psychological/anthro stuff on hero worship, you an do some catch up by reading Joseph Campbell's works, "Hero with a thousand faces" and "Mask of the Gods" 
as far as racism goes, if Texas oil gives the ok, Ben Carson will be the next blue GOP president. Couple that with some of the unrest in the country and discontent with liberals and the many seats will go right also. Not a good thing. Who knows Chicago may have to secede lol.
putting Barry up in rock is a great idea, but the only thing left in SoDak would be next to Crazy Horse, and don't think the Indians would go for it. He would look good next to the Statue of Liberty however, if you can get Michelle in on it.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

The total numbers of people killed by terriost attacks is pretty small compared to even something like deaths from eating refined sugar, yet the amount of press it gets is way out of proportion. Hopefully people will wake up in time to see Barry's war power acts is nothing more than another power ruse.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 12, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I'm just venturing a guess here, but I don't think Obama can take credit for these "killings".  I don't think him or any president has the power to actually orchestrate this on their own?? Maybe all the Repuplicans are trash and should be deported, or something?



As I said, those terrorist killings happened under President Obama during his first term, nobody said that he went out and shot the terrorists, or orchestrated their assasinations completely on his own. All republicans are trash, and they should be deported?  Really? 

I've been listening to a lot of conservative talk radio since he's been elected.  I have heard many republicans who have said that Obama _supports _terrorism, that he wants to help the terrorists take over America, all the way up to suggesting that he himself is a muslim terrorist in disguise.

  When I came across this listing of all the terrorists who were killed under his watch, I felt like posting some facts on the matter.  I'm surprised it ruffled so many feathers here. 



nwlady said:


> Even I get this, I don't get the hero worship.  I've had presidents I liked and respected but I was never falling at their feet thinking they were some sort of God??  What the hell??



I don't worship him or think of him as a god, that bull$hit was started by the republicans after he was elected by the people.  I'm sure everyone saw the cartoon of him walking on water, I don't think democrats or independents posted that trash everywhere.

 Problem is, many people like yourself take this information as fact, it's nothing but sour grapes talk from the losing party.  There are things about Obama that I don't like, but I'm not going to discredit all of his accomplishments like many others have since he became President of the United States.



rkunsaw said:


> AZ Jim, If you don't vote for Ben Carson, Allen West, and/or any other black republican then you are a racist.



AZ can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of us don't vote for color.  Following are some of the ideals and statements made by Carson, which would make me never vote for him.  Same situation with West.



1. _“There comes a time when people with values simply have to stand up. Think about Nazi Germany. Most of those people did not believe in what Hitler was doing. But did they speak up? Did they stand up for what they believe in? They did not, and you saw what happened.”_
~Ben Carson, comparing Democrats to Nazis, January 2014.

2. _“I mean, [America is] very much like Nazi Germany. And I know you’re not supposed to say ‘Nazi Germany,’ but I don’t care about political correctness. You know, you had a government using its tools to intimidate the population. We now live in a society where people are afraid to say what they actually believe.”_
~Ben Carson, telling Breitbart News how America is like Nazi Germany because of liberals, March 2014.

3. _“ObamaCare is the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. In a way, it is slavery, because it is making all of us subservient to the government.” _
~Ben Carson, comparing healthcare to slavery during the Values Voter Summit, October 2013.

4. _“Because 9/11 is an isolated incident. Things that are isolated issues as opposed to things that fundamentally change the United Sates of America and shift power from the people to the government. That is a huge shift. You have to take a long-term look at something that fundamentally changes the power structure of America.”_
~Ben Carson, claiming ObamaCare is worse than the 9/11 terrorist attacks that killed 3,000 Americans, June 2014.

5. _“I think what’s happening with the veterans is a gift from God to show us what happens when you take layers and layers of bureaucracy and place them between the patients and the health care provider. And if we can’t get it right, with the relatively small number of veterans, how in the world are you going to do it with the entire population?”_​~Ben Carson, thanking God for dead soldiers in an attack on ObamaCare amid the Veteran’s Affairs military healthcare scandal in which veterans died waiting for medical care, Memorial Day Weekend 2014.

6._ “My thoughts are that marriage is between a man and a woman. It’s a well-established, fundamental pillar of society, and no group — be they gays, be they NAMBLA, be they people who believe in bestiality — it doesn’t matter what they are — they don’t get to change the definition.”_
~Ben Carson, comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality and pedophilia, April 2013.

7. _“Certainly there’s the potential because you have to recognize that we have a rapidly increasing national debt, a very unstable financial foundation, and you have all these things going on like the ISIS crisis that could very rapidly change things that are going on in our nation. And unless we begin to deal with these things in a comprehensive way and in a logical way there is no telling what could happen in just a couple of years.”_
~Ben Carson, telling Fox News that President Obama might declare martial law and cancel the 2016 Election so he can continue being president, September 2014.

8. _“I think most people when they finish that course, they’d be ready to go sign up for ISIS.”_
~Ben Carson, claiming the AP History curriculum will cause students who learn about civil disobedience in this country to join a violent terrorist group, September 2014.

9._ “Anyone caught involved in voter fraud should be immediately deported and have his citizenship revoked.”_
~Ben Carson, advocating for stripping non-citizens of their no-existant American citizenship if they are caught voting, November 2014. NOTE: quote was later removed from Carson’s WND column.

10. _“So if there were a container of contaminated urine, and somehow it managed to find its way to someplace a lot of damage could be done. Someone comes up to a lab worker. He knows he’s got the urine. ‘How would you like to have a million dollars?’ … Such things have been known to happen.”_
~Ben Carson, fearmongering over Ebola by saying it could be used a biological weapon even though infectious disease experts disagree, August 2014.

If I needed brain surgery, Dr. Ben Carson is the guy I would want performing the operation because his experience in the field of neurosurgery is nearly unmatched. But I would not want him as President of the United States. The fact is, he has zero experience in government. At least President Obama had prior governing experience prior to winning his first term in office. He served as a state senator in Illinois for seven years and as a United States senator for three years, yet conservatives constantly gripe that Obama didn't have enough experience to be president. By supporting Carson’s candidacy, conservatives would be committing hypocrisy.

Carson has no idea what it means to govern, and his consistent extremist rhetoric should disqualify him from ever being considered for a job as demanding and stressful as Commander-in-Chief. 

You can’t bring up the Nazi card to describe political opponents, compare gay people to pedophiles, thank God for dead soldiers, and fearmonger about a virus in an effort to cause panic in the nation and think that makes you perfectly qualified to lead and unite the whole population of the United States. 





QuickSilver said:


> Of course... as Commander and Chief.. HE gave the orders.. He authorized the special OPs..  Did he physically do the killing ... of course not..  I don't think anyone would expect the President to physically pick up a weapon and join a SEAL unit..   BUT.. as the Commander of the Military... and I presume anyone who has BEEN in the military knows... You don't blow your nose without orders or permission..  SO... I agree.. end of debate..



I agree.  I amazes me how many people cannot accept any of President Obama's accomplishments during his Presidency.  They must have very poor memories to recollect how things were under Bush.  Many are still in denial that he was elected by the people of America twice, and refuse to give credit where credit is due.  They've made it no secret that they wanted to make him a one-term President, and refuse to work with him on anything during his term in office.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

The point is to keep it in perspective. If it had the capability of being done alone it would have happened. Nixon passed more environment friendly stuff than any of the other guys. These examples could go on on both sides, good and bad--- politics is a very complex environment. Grunt military indoctrination starts with the Pres. Being the man, that way the don't blame the next guy up in the chain. (Or frag him). Reminds me of a George a Clooney movie three kings, were he's telling the Iragie, "George Bush wants you." Anyone who has done contract work will tell you what's going on.
oh almost forgot psychopaths make the best surgeons, just as a::holes make the best lawyers.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

Carson could have it correct on the martial law thing, we will see, good for gun sales.


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## rt3 (Feb 12, 2015)

Oh almost forgot, such radical talk (Carson) coming out of someone from John Hopkins a very liberal institution something very fishy.
whats a matter Jim, nap time?


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## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> AZ Jim, If you don't vote for Ben Carson, Allen West, and/or any other black republican then you are a racist.
> 
> If you didn't vote for Jan Brewer for governor you are sexist.
> 
> ...



There's always losers, there has to be when there's a winner.  I see so many poor losers when it comes to these elections.  I am sad, and sometimes a bit worried, but I don't start slingin things around like the names you mentioned RK.  Like I said last night, I feel things happen for a reason and I am, on the whole, pretty accepting.  I didn't join in with the Obama bashers (ok, I laughed once or twice at the stupid jokes like Obama-nation) but no, he was our president, period.

To be honest, that comment about "people being afraid to say they were racist" or didn't like him because he was black, truly surprised me, like the thought did NOT cross my mind.  I laid there in bed thinking wow, I am so glad I'm not a racist.  It's always hard to be accused of something you're not, but I know it happens to everyone, we just have to move on knowing that it's not true.


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## darroll (Feb 12, 2015)

When the "R" word came up I quit this read.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

A person without opinion and a willingness to defend them is safe from flack but like an blank page.


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## AprilT (Feb 12, 2015)

The problem comes when people want to say anything and everything, be offensive in doing so, more often than not, and don't offer anything to back the things they spout then get angry and call foul because they're called out on their nonsense.

There came a point I too thought about leaving this place, because, it seemed there were a lot of racist one sided views constantly flowing in certain threads and I for one had no desire to be where I wasn't wanted.  Slowly I came to see not all the people were so closed minded and I found a way to still feel accepted as a person and not just a black person here with some.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Exactly April, Good Call!!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

It's the passive aggressive snark that irks me more.  Then the WAAAAAMbulance comes out of the garage when it's called out.


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## GeneMO (Feb 12, 2015)

He deserves a tub full of credit in this regard.  I get thrills down my leg just thinking about it!!   I can just picture President Obama, M4 carbine with an EOS sight, K-bar knife clenched in his teeth and grenades hanging off his bullet proof vest.   Going in with night vision to do those bad dudes in!!   Right behind him, securing his six is Brian Williams.

A terrorist killing duo if I ever seen one!!

Gene


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## d0ug (Feb 12, 2015)

Giving Obama the credit for killing so called terrorists is OK but he dose not want to take credit for the thousands innocent  men women and children that got killed by drones O yes that is collateral damage. Like the double dip they call it when they make a strike and when people go out to help the injured  they hit them. Who is the terrorist??


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

War is hell and it always brings with it the loss of innocent lives.  The terrorists are the same people who wrought this upon everyone.


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## Sunny (Feb 12, 2015)

It is obvious that there is an element of racism in those who oppose Obama with no good explanation, no matter what he does. When he was running the first time, I heard one or two people come right out and say they would not vote for a black man for President. Fortunately, people like that are in the minority. IMO, he has been an excellent President. Not perfect, because no human being is. But considering the mess that he inherited, he's done an amazing job.

He takes the high ground, does not rise to the bait, ignores the idiots on Fox News, has a lovely and intelligent wife, and keeps his nose clean. There has not been one hint of scandal coming out of the White House. As seen in the list above, he killed not only bin Laden but many other terrorists.  And yes, he does get the credit for that; if he had failed to punish these monsters, you can bet that the Republicans would be screaming from the rooftops how ineffectual he is. Given that the avowed intention of the GOP is to discredit him and stop him from achieving anything at all, it's hard to assume that the Republicans are acting on high moral principals.

I disagree with him about the recent Muslim vs. Christian issue. He went way too far in trying to equalize the two religions, by bringing up the horrors of centuries past committed by Christians. That was then, this is now. So I don't think he's right all the time, but most of the time he is.

Of course, that doesn't make everyone who opposes Obama a racist. But pretending that it isn't a factor with many people is like the scene at the end of The Wizard of Oz: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"


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## GeneMO (Feb 12, 2015)

I ask this in all seriousness, (my previous post was blatantly sarcastic).  The racism branding of a person is always thrown down as a way for the other side/person to stop all debate.  Once you label a person a racist, our hyper politically correct society instantly discounts and sicks the attack dogs on the alleged racist.

So answer me this.   If you were a white family of 4 with two small children, and you are looking at houses with a realator.  The realator pulls you up to a house in a cul-de-sac and 75% of the houses are owned by black families.  Do you buy there?

Be honest.    I guess you can lie to us, but you know the truth.

So, if I am not supervising a person, if I dont approve his paycheck, I am just a person minding my own business.   Is it not my right to be racist?

I belong to a small, rural church.  50 people max in attendance each Sunday.  We have no black members.  We dont keep them out, in fact they are welcome, and we have had some visitors who are black.  10 miles away is an AME Black church, they have no white members.   Why is this?

Given freedom to choose, people will naturally gravatate to their own type.

Kansas City Missouri, for 40 years spent billions of dollars bussing minorities and whites all over to force integration of the school.   They built extravagantly expensive "magnet schools"  All the luxuries.  When school bussing was finally realized as a joke and waste, you know what is left?  The whites all moved to the suburbs and the KC schools, Like St. Louis are failures and many areas of Kansas City are not safe to drive through.

I am playing devils advocate here.   Most people are afraid to have an honest discussion cause someone always throws out the racist label and the "racist" has to leave.  No room for discussion.  If you cant support your arguments with facts, just call the other person names.

Oh, and I can't stand Obama because of his policies.  He is half white remember?  I dont like his white half, so it is impossible for me to be racist.

Gene


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## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

d0ug said:


> Giving Obama the credit for killing so called terrorists is OK but he dose not want to take credit for the thousands innocent  men women and children that got killed by drones O yes that is collateral damage. Like the double dip they call it when they make a strike and when people go out to help the injured  they hit them. Who is the terrorist??



That's a super point, no one in their right mind wants that sort of credit.  One thing I still can't shake is the little I hear about the abortion issues.  There are a lot of folks in this country that think it has surpassed the deaths in several wars, we think those are live babies and the weeks old they are and still being aborted.  How can that not be a priority.  I cannot agree with him on a couple of major things for me, so I am not excited about the things I feel are less important

I really don't think a political thread belongs in a forum, too much hate if we don't all agree.  The groups might be better since I don't think a one of us know how to do a real debate. I'd say we could survive, even better without political debate, and if you have a hot temper, you'll always end up in trouble. Or, at the least, that rudeness, disrespect for your fellow Americans needs to be tossed out, at the least.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

My failure to debate with you Denise, should not be construed as agreement, but rather boredom.


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## GeneMO (Feb 12, 2015)

We are able to have this fourm, on a free and open internet, because the founders of this country had lots of lively political debates.

But yes, several forums I visit have special political "rooms"   If you go in there, prepare to be offended.!!


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## SifuPhil (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> A person without opinion and a willingness to defend them is safe from flack but like an blank page.



And like a blank page that person has no prejudices, no alliances, no allegiances - they can be written upon by the day's events. They are made new every day. 

Ever try to write yourself a note on a page torn from a book? Hard to distinguish the new from the old, isn't it?


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## BobF (Feb 12, 2015)

I wonder how many of you lefties really watch FOX NEWS.    There are some lefties on FOX NEWS and they do keep bringing up some nasty political items from both sides.   I don't watch FOX NEWS all the time but after watching NBC or ABC or CBS I sometimes wonder where there interest is coming from, so then I watch some FOX NEWS for a better balance.   Some other programs I have heard on TV are so far left they are not even worth listening too any more.    MSNBC is one that I find so distorted that I don't spend much time on there anymore.   They definitely are far left progressive and that is all they talk about.   Surely not a balanced group like FOX NEWS tries to be as they offer speakers from left and right.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Profound Phil, I'll put that down to think about one day!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Yes... a political section does belong...  There are plenty of people that choose to stay out of this section for their own reasons.  There are also plenty that enjoy  politics.  I don't believe it's up to you to call the shots.     I suggest that if political banter and debate upsets you .. or if you feel you are unable to debate without emotion..  There are plenty other sections that would be more to your liking..   It's as simple as not clicking on this section.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

BobF said:


> I wonder how many of you lefties really watch FOX NEWS.    There are some lefties on FOX NEWS and they do keep bringing up some nasty political items from both sides.   I don't watch FOX NEWS all the time but after watching NBC or ABC or CBS I sometimes wonder where there interest is coming from, so then I watch some FOX NEWS for a better balance.   Some other programs I have heard on TV are so far left they are not even worth listening too any more.    MSNBC is one that I find so distorted that I don't spend much time on there anymore.   They definitely are far left progressive and that is all they talk about.   *Surely not a balanced group like FOX NEWS tries to be as they offer speakers from left and right.*



Laughing uncontrollably here.....


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Laughing uncontrollably here.....



They actually believe that $hit.... don't they.....


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> They actually believe that $hit.... don't they.....



It is sad....


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## Jackie22 (Feb 12, 2015)

Well, I'd like to get my 2 cents in here before things get locked down...I have always been a political junkie, I keep up with what is going on in Washington and any time I see an injustice or an out and out lie, I will speak up about it, I try to always back it up....now if someone thinks I'm not telling the truth, they're welcome to counter what I say, as long as they back it up with reputable sources.

You know, I don't like it when people get on here and say misleading and false statements, but I try to SHOW where they are wrong, not whine about it.

That's one reason I like this forum, to be able to express my feelings about what I know.


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## BobF (Feb 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> They actually believe that $hit.... don't they.....



Yes as it is true.   Check out the stations and who speak on them if you doubt it.   Or are you just saying MSNBC is not far left progressive?   If so I can not agree with that at all.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Well said Jackie!!


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

BobF said:


> Yes as it is true.   Check out the stations and who speak on them if you doubt it.   Or are you just saying MSNBC is not far left progressive?   If so I can not agree with that at all.



*eyes roll*


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

BobF said:


> Yes as it is true.   Check out the stations and who speak on them if you doubt it.   Or are you just saying MSNBC is not far left progressive?   If so I can not agree with that at all.



I much prefer to here a more "debate" like rebuttle?  Who learnes anything when we make these short, unmeaningful remarks?  I think some folks need a job and report what they are told to, if I'm understanding this "discussion".


----------



## BobF (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> *eyes roll*



It has to more than your eyes rolling.    You have to change the dials to get into those stations and hear for yourself.   For MSNBC just search for it and get this.    Something they tell about themselves.

[h=3]msnbc: news, video and progressive community. Lean ...[/h]www.*msnbc*.com/


F.B.I.  Director James Comey delivered a rare, blunt conversation on race and  policing on Thursday, calling on law enforcement to confront “hard  truths.‎The Rachel Maddow Show - ‎The Place for Politics - ‎Videos - ‎


----------



## d0ug (Feb 12, 2015)

War used to be hell but now what they call attacking a terrorist is some one half the world away playing a video game and killing innocent people. When the double dip that means they go back after they killed and injured people and then kill the people who are kind enough to go and help. Maybe if they had to look the baby in the eyes before they kill them things might change. We seem to be judge and jury and make the rules some times we call them freedom fighters and other times they are terrorists this depends on which side you want to play.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

d0ug said:


> War used to be hell but now what they call attacking a terrorist is some one half the world away playing a video game and killing innocent people. When the double dip that means they go back after they killed and injured people and then kill the people who are kind enough to go and help. Maybe if they had to look the baby in the eyes before they kill them things might change. We seem to be judge and jury and make the rules some times we call them freedom fighters and other times they are terrorists this depends on which side you want to play.



War is still hell for the participants on the ground and innocent victims of mans inability to allow others their way of life or belief system.


----------



## rkunsaw (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I tuned out on the pure bullshit!  To suggest that because the President didn't personally shoot the gun that killed terrorists he didn't accomplish the deed is so stupid as to be laughable.  And saying there isn't racism at play is equally stupid!  Likewise the charge that he fancies himself a dictator because he  can't get any help in keeping the country running from congress makes me think of the real dictator, George Bush (the decider). rt3 says if I didn't vote for Jan Brewer I am a sexist!!!!  Really??  So whether I like her policies or not I must vote for her or be a sexist?  If you didn't vote for Obama that doesn't make you a racist, the crap you spew about his every move in office is a good indication of racism.  And how 'bout all the n words after his election from so many of our Southern states?  THAT is racism.  I haven't called anyone in this thread a racist (though there may be some) but, nonetheless racism is alive and seen daily in discussions involving our President.  Yes I said OUR President.



You implied, no you said, that anybody that didn't like Obama was a racist. I was just using your own reasoning to show you how stupid you sound when you play the race game. By your reasoning any black people who didn't vote for Romney is also a racist.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> You implied, no you said, that anybody that didn't like Obama was a racist. I was just using your own reasoning to show you how stupid you sound when you play the race game. By your reasoning any black people who didn't vote for Romney is also a racist.



Please show me where I said any  such a thing.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Still waiting rkunsaw.


----------



## rkunsaw (Feb 12, 2015)

11:12 PM                                                                         #6 

*AZ Jim* 

				View Profile			 
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															 						Old but Viable					 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



































Join DateNov 2014LocationWest Valley, Phoenix MetroPosts830

I cannot speak for you and of course there's no "secret society" that I know of but as to the many I refer to, it's racism.  You cannot find anyone who will admit to it, but it's there and we all know it.  BTW The President did put together the dynamics that brought down all the terrorists.  He calls the shots, he is the commander in chief.  If he fails, he takes the heat but when he wins, he deserves the credit​


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> 11:12 PM                                                                         #6
> 
> *AZ Jim*
> 
> ...



Ok!  You posted that I said or I'll even go with implied "anyone who didn't vote for Obama is a racist".  Show me then in the post "proving" I said such a thing, exactly WHERE I said it.  If you cannot do that, and you cannot, apply at FOX as a local reporter. Also you need to remember not to come to a gun fight with only a pocket knife. Boom!


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Isn't it amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid saying anything good about President Obama.



It's really the same if you look around, folks on the other side don't want to say anything good about what the Republicans believe in, and logically, there has to be pros and cons.  One side is not better then the other.  I know plenty of Republicans over the years that truly support the pres, because he is the pres.  I don't like him, but if I see something he does good, I will acknowledge it.  I don't see a lot, I hear about all the wonderful stuff, but then I am open to listening to all the input.

You guys don't like Republicans, or some of you don't I guess.  I don't see the big deal, he seems to be doing well for some folks, and we do all get to vote.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> You implied, no you said, that anybody that didn't like Obama was a racist. I was just using your own reasoning to show you how stupid you sound when you play the race game. By your reasoning any black people who didn't vote for Romney is also a racist.



yeah, Romney was a mormon, so many played that card.


----------



## Jackie22 (Feb 12, 2015)

nwlady said:


> It's really the same if you look around, folks on the other side don't want to say anything good about what the Republicans believe in, and logically, there has to be pros and cons.  One side is not better then the other.  I know plenty of Republicans over the years that truly support the pres, because he is the pres.  I don't like him, but if I see something he does good, I will acknowledge it.  I don't see a lot, I hear about all the wonderful stuff, but then I am open to listening to all the input.
> 
> You guys don't like Republicans, or some of you don't I guess.  I don't see the big deal, he seems to be doing well for some folks, and we do all get to vote.



Well, when I see something good to report about Republicans, I'll let you know, I wouldn't hold your breath until then though.


----------



## GeneMO (Feb 12, 2015)

Fox new does have people on with opposing views.  Alan Combs is on there all the time showing how little he knows.  Most of the hosts are always offering Hollywierd folks and other leftists air time, but they are too chicken to show up. I will give them credit (leftist), those two bimbos with the state department are on quite a bit.  They are as dumb as a box of rocks.  I watch CBS every morning, and every evening.  I notice that they often slant things, leave things out, or otherwise try to put their spin on things.   

If I really want the straight dope on things, "just the facts maam", I would tune into Brian Williams on NBC.

Gene


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

Ditto, only for democrats


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

*rkunsaw, come on out.*

Same old thing as FOX "news".  When challenged...nothing...empty suit!


----------



## GeneMO (Feb 12, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Well, when I see something good to report about Republicans, I'll let you know, I wouldn't hold your breath until then though.



I think Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.   Al Gore's dad was a US Senator and opposed to Civil Rights.  It goes both ways.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

OMG!  hahahahahaha Al Gore's dad?  If you wanna play, put the sling shot away and get some fire power.


----------



## Jackie22 (Feb 12, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> I think Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.   Al Gore's dad was a US Senator and opposed to Civil Rights.  It goes both ways.



Today's Republicans are not yesterday's, and when it was all said and done more democrats voted for civil rights than republicans and that is what counts.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 12, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Seabreeze,
> 
> The "maybe" in my statement is saying that I get the feeling the Republicans are constantly being bashed on here.  You being an admin. and on the side of the democrats that are doing the bashing has worried me a little, like I can't say what's on my mind, like some do, without getting kicked out of the forums.
> 
> I have a lot of friends here, I mean people I would miss, I love coming here, but I don't like anyone getting picked on and called names, and have snide/snarky remarks made to them because they are conservative.  I guess I take my chances being honest about how I feel here.  I was really middle of the road, basically, I'm still open-minded to both "sides" but the rules of this board say no rudeness.



If you haven't noticed Obama and the democrats being criticized on this forum, then you haven't read many of the threads here.

Insinuating that since I'm a moderator here would stop you from giving your opinions about favoring the republican party without being banned is insulting.  I was a member here when this forum first started, and was an active member for a couple of years before I agreed to help with moderation in 2014, and that volunteering in no way took my rights away to my own opinions.  Nobody was ever banned from here for their political views.

I am a registered Independent.  I voted for George W. Bush in 2000.  After he started the Iraq war, I did not intend to vote him in again.  Since then I have learned much about the republican party, and have shared with everyone here on more than one occasion that the more I learn, the further left I lean.

As far as name calling and rudeness, some people here have crossed the line in political discussions, and those posts are removed when needed, you should be aware of that.  This is NOT a political forum, and this section for Current News and Hot Topics has been added only because people requested to speak of more serious subject than light-hearted topics in General Discussions.

Those who are upset by others who disagree with them politically, can put this whole section on 'ignore'.  Those who want to call each other names and snipe at each other, can join a political forum where there are no rules and they can get as nasty as they like.  This isn't one of those forums.  We have very few rules in place, and most members have no issues with respecting them.

There are members here who said they left other forums because things became too heated, insulting and offensive.  They wanted a friendlier place to visit, and came here.  We intend to keep this forum a quality place for seniors to visit and talk to each other.  Following are the two rule threads found in Forum Support, in case everyone hasn't read them yet.  




> Senior Forums is a friendly place where members can feel comfortable while visiting and participating in our discussions. Our goal is to maintain the integrity of this board, and continue to enjoy a high quality, clean community experience.
> 
> Please keep in mind that we have members and visitors from all walks of life, various ages, races and ethnic backgrounds. We ask that all members are respectful of each other, and considerate of those who may be reading their posts. Use good judgment, if you think something may be objectionable, do not post it.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Thank you SeaBreeze.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

I've belonged to a couple of rather large forums, and that admins never got involved with the discussions, so I have thought to be an admin you have to be objective.  Evidently not on all forums.

I still do not feel that certain rules are being followed, maybe they are not "caught", the demeaning threads, that are about people here.  Others have mentioned it and I would never break their confidence.  Since I don't see any change taking place as to the way some people are allowed to talk on here, I will do as you mentioned and not just block those folks, but I will stay out of your political discussions.  It's a shame because I have gotten many strokes from folks that liked what I had to say.

That last paragraph is not being enforced Seabreeze.   It says regardless of "topic" and especially in political discussions there is loads of disrespect.  It says:

Regardless of the topic, we ask that all members  are respectful to each other, and keep a civil tone in all discussions  in the forums. We do not accept rudeness, name calling, offensive or  insulting posts. Keep in mind that this is not a political forum, and  any vitriolic arguments or debates are not welcome here. Forwarding of  any copy and paste inflammatory messages for political purposes is not  allowed. Any offensive posts or political cartoons will be removed, and  the user's account may be terminated.


Thanks to everyone for helping to keep this a friendly senior forum. 

vit·ri·ol·ic
ˌvitrēˈälik/
_adjective_
adjective: *vitriolic*
filled with bitter criticism or malice.
"vitriolic attacks on the politicians"

synonyms:acrimonious, rancorous, bitter, caustic, mordant, acerbic, trenchant, virulent, spiteful, savage, venomous, poisonous, malicious, splenetic; More



If anyone out there see's this going on, now is the time to step forward,  Matrix has assured me that no one is getting kicked off because of disagreeing with anyone on this forum, as long as they are civil and respectful.

I don't blame anyone for not saying anything either.  I won't change my mind about what I see with my own two eyes.  I will just avoid the threads political, and any that continue to be rude and disrespectful.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 12, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I've belonged to a couple of rather large forums, and that admins never got involved with the discussions, so I have thought to be an admin you have to be objective.
> 
> I still do not feel that certain rules are being followed, maybe they are not "caught", the demeaning threads, that are about people here.  Others have mentioned it and I would never break their confidence.  Since I don't see any change taking place as to the way some people are allowed to talk on here, I will do as you mentioned and not just block those folks, but I will stay out of your political discussions.  It's a shame because I have gotten many strokes from folks that liked what I had to say.
> 
> ...




I am objective, and as a long time member, will continue to be involved in all of the discussions of interest to me. Matrix has reinforced just what I've been saying here, nobody will be getting "kicked off" of the forum for disagreeing with another member, as long as they are civil and respectful.  If you don't like the way political discussions are handled, then you have every right not to participate in them.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

Well, I think that is good that you get to both be an admin as well as participate.  I just think that people, including myself change when it comes to politics.  Matrix was good about setting my mind at ease as well.  I do hope at some point the inappropriate post will be caught, I know it must be hard to catch them all, with only 2 monitors.

I just saw one today that simply said "blah blah blah", I think we all need to act more like adults.  I just think that's a waste of space, and totally disrespectful to the speaker it is aimed at.  I know I'm trying my best to not make nasty comments, they are worthless, add nothing to the discussion but hard feelings.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Denise, if politics isn't gentle enough then maybe you should avoid the subject.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

and I think it would be wise of you to keep me on ignore because I certainly am not interested in your advice.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Well, I don't have you on ignore but my advice was merely meant in a friendly way as a possible solution to your getting upset.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

Maybe our definition of rude and disrespectful are different matrix.  I know some have now been deleted, so I can't go back and show you, but that's ok, I think your rules are very good, but they need to be enforced.  Actually, Seabreeze usually posts very good info, but after AZ Jim had been rude to me, she backed him up, instead of saying, hey, you two play nice.  The same with Quicksilver.  I know you can't see or read everything, and I know many folks choose not to make waves, but when I see injustice being done, it's more important to me to speak up

As far as let's be fair, I am ALL for that, it's about time.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Well, I don't have you on ignore but my advice was merely meant in a friendly way as a possible solution to your getting upset.



Well that was right nice of you then Jim, you sure changed your tune compared to the posts I have from the last two days from you thanks


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Oh geeeez..... are we through yet?   This is tiring... and a bit juvenile..


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Well that was right nice of you then Jim, you sure changed your tune compared to the posts I have from the last two days from you thanks



No.  No changes here.  I will continue to refute anything that I feel needs refuting.  I love politics and can take the heat, it is a rough game to play if you cannot.  I have never called you a single name, but rather I have stated my opposition to many of your comments.  Frankly, I find some of your comments unworthy of rebuttal.  We needn't be beer swilling buddies and I can handle any traffic coming my way. We might find some agreement on some subjects but politics isn't one of them.


----------



## Nontoxiconly (Feb 12, 2015)

I believe that there is literally NO SUCH THING as a civil/respectful political discussion. I tend to do more listening (and laughing) than talking, whenever I do decide to get involved.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Gotta agree with that.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Livelonginspired said:


> I believe that there is literally NO SUCH THING as a civil/respectful political discussion. I tend to do more listening (and laughing) than talking, whenever I do decide to get involved.




I think you are right....  One of our Chicago mayors had a saying..  "Politics ain't tiddly-winks"   He was right... both in practice and on message boards.. By it's nature it tends to get heated at times.


----------



## Shirley (Feb 12, 2015)

I am a Republican. I'd as soon be attacked by a pack of vicious, rabid dogs as post my opinions here. I think the dogs would likely be kinder.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I am a Republican. I'd as soon be attacked by a pack of vicious, rabid dogs as post my opinions here. I think the dogs would likely be kinder.



Are you kidding me?   This forum is tame by the Nth degree compared to some of the political debate forums out there..  There are some I wouldn't even consider putting an opinion out on..


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Are you kidding me?   This forum is tame by the Nth degree compared to some of the political debate forums out there..  There are some I wouldn't even consider putting an opinion out on..



So true, back in the day Slate had a political board and I've seen every name in the book called there.  Man or woman all fair game. This forum is very tame.  But like I said, if you don't wanna play politics, don't.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> So true, back in the day Slate had a political board and I've seen every name in the book called there.  Man or woman all fair game. This forum is very tame.  But like I said, if you don't wanna play politics, don't.



I agree.. some people are political and enjoy the back and forth of political debate.  Some people are very sensitive   and feel insulted when their opinions are challenged.  They mistake a rebuttal of their opinion as an attack..  In which case, it might be better to avoid those discussions.   I find this section very enjoyable for it's lively discussions... even if they get a bet dicy...and sometimes make me want to scream..     It would be a shame to have it ruined by anyone..  I probably would end up losing interest..


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

I too would feel we lost the nicest part of this forum, a place to express and defend your opinions on things political.  It is not a "user friendly" area for the ultra sensitive souls.


----------



## Nontoxiconly (Feb 12, 2015)

The problem is, a lot of times it isn't just sensitivity; most people cannot challenge another person's political views without being bitter, nasty and insulting in the process. To me _those_ are the ones who actually can't stand the heat. If you can't debate without resorting to snide remarks and childish insults, then clearly you're not very secure with your opinion. The worst part is that the people who do this never admit that they're being irrational. Never. Someone else is always the problem; never them. Narcissists.

I'm not talking about anyone here, by the way. At least I don't think I am.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I too would feel we lost the nicest part of this forum, a place to express and defend your opinions on things political.  It is not a "user friendly" area for the ultra sensitive souls.




And while I see a lot of disputing of opinions and even fun poked... it's always only at the positions taken... never the poster.. I have only seen outright name calling once...  and it was handled immediately.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 12, 2015)

Yeah if this upsets anyone, they should see the real battlegrounds on some forums.


----------



## GeneMO (Feb 13, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Today's Republicans are not yesterday's, and when it was all said and done more democrats voted for civil rights than republicans and that is what counts.



80% of Republicans voted for the 1964 Civil Rights act, less than70% of the Democrats did.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> 80% of Republicans voted for the 1964 Civil Rights act, less than70% of the Democrats did.



That's because.... If you look at political history.... the South was primarily Democratic.... the DixieCrats... so of course they voted against the Civil Rights act..  Once that became law, the South switched parties and became Republican..   As Lyndon Johnson said.  "We have lost the South for a Generation"


----------



## Jackie22 (Feb 13, 2015)

GeneMO said:


> 80% of Republicans voted for the 1964 Civil Rights act, less than70% of the Democrats did.



Yes, after looking it up, you are right, Gene, and I stand corrected, as I said earlier yesterday's Republicans are not today's.

And thank you, QS, for the explanation.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

I live in a very red state but luckily I have been inoculated against the dreaded malady of Republicanitis!


----------



## darroll (Feb 13, 2015)

I live in a blue state and you should see or governor in action.
  He sure does like his new illegal voters.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 13, 2015)

Livelonginspired said:


> The problem is, a lot of times it isn't just sensitivity; most people cannot challenge another person's political views without being bitter, nasty and insulting in the process. To me _those_ are the ones who actually can't stand the heat. If you can't debate without resorting to snide remarks and childish insults, then clearly you're not very secure with your opinion. The worst part is that the people who do this never admit that they're being irrational. Never. Someone else is always the problem; never them. Narcissists.
> 
> I'm not talking about anyone here, by the way. At least I don't think I am.



This is the BEST post on this thread, now there is a person with their head on straight!  Thanks you for renewing my faith in humanity!! Denise


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 13, 2015)

Not that anyone will read this, but I did realize last night that I was accused of saying Seabreeze should not be able to post and have fun here, which, is not at all what I said.  I said that I believed, from other site admins I've seen, that the admin should remain objective.  My other point was, and not just my own feeling, was that if we leaned to far to the "unpopular" side on this board, or, slung back the rudeness, and disrespectfulness that was being handed out, we might get banned because the board "seemed" to be leaning more and more.  I was not the only one that felt this way.  

I'm not hangin in there anymore because I truly don't know enough about politics, but kindness and consideration to others, I do know.  But I will also come out fighting if you get nasty with me, it's just the way I am.

or my friends I respect.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

I thought we had gone back to the original topic....   Now... here we go again.   How tiring...  Can we just give it a rest?


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I thought we had gone back to the original topic....   Now... here we go again.   How tiring...  Can we just not give it a rest?



I gave up on this thread.  Can you say boring?


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I gave up on this thread.  Can you say boring?



It was a great topic and we were having a good back and forth...  too bad it keeps getting Hijacked...  OK... I'm done...  No use trying to continue the discussion.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> It was a great topic and we were having a good back and forth...  too bad it keeps getting Hijacked...  OK... I'm done...  No use trying to continue the discussion.



Such is life but if you are thin skinned it's not a good place to be.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

I would just like to have a good political debate.  Nagging I can get anytime..


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 13, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I live in a very red state but luckily I have been inoculated against the dreaded malady of Republicanitis!


There's a flaw somewhere in the way your system is set up if any state remains perpetually red or blue. Over here it's more finely balanced and the states do swing over time between the two major parties, with state government usually held for two to four terms on average. Same with the federal government, although our current government, halfway through it's first term, looks like it won't be re-elected in 18 months. The voters are becoming less patient these days.

For a two party system, I would expect the power to fluctuate between them.

Perhaps I've misunderstood the red state/blue state situation?


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> There's a flaw somewhere in the way your system is set up if any state remains perpetually red or blue. Over here it's more finely balanced and the states do swing over time between the two major parties, with state government usually held for two to four terms on average. Same with the federal government, although our current government, halfway through it's first term, looks like it won't be re-elected in 18 months. The voters are becoming less patient these days.
> 
> For a two party system, I would expect the power to fluctuate between them.
> 
> Perhaps I've misunderstood the red state/blue state situation?




Well the bottom line is the electoral votes. Here we Democrats have come very close to a majority in voting but if we lack the most votes all our electoral votes go to the majority.  Personally I prefer a proportionate award of those electoral votes. You garner 45% of the popular vote, you get 45% of the electoral votes.  But, if wishes were fishes Bush would not have been elected without the majority of popular votes in 2000.  

In 2000,  George W. Bush was declared the winner of the general election and  became the 43rd president, but he didn’t win the popular vote either. Al  Gore holds that distinction, garnering about 540,000 more votes than  Bush. However, Bush won the electoral vote, 271 to 266.    http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/presidents-winning-without-popular-vote/


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I would just like to have a good political debate.  Nagging I can get anytime..



Not from me you can't, no whining or nagging here.  I don't like it either.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> There's a flaw somewhere in the way your system is set up if any state remains perpetually red or blue. Over here it's more finely balanced and the states do swing over time between the two major parties, with state government usually held for two to four terms on average. Same with the federal government, although our current government, halfway through it's first term, looks like it won't be re-elected in 18 months. The voters are becoming less patient these days.
> 
> For a two party system, I would expect the power to fluctuate between them.
> 
> ...



nope it either the donkey team or the elephant team on threads like this one to select the MVP


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

rt3 said:


> nope it either the donkey team or the elephant team on threads like this one to select the MVP



You see nothing wrong when a person can be elected even though most voted for the other candidate?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 13, 2015)

I wasn't actually talking about the position of President. I understand how the electoral college works. I was actually talking about how each state gets to elect its government. I got the sense that some are permanently red or blue. Am I wrong in this ? Is power in some states entrenched in one party or the other, or is the norm to periodically switch over to the opposite party?


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 13, 2015)

I can only speak for four states I have owned homes in and been residents of.  California Blue, Arizona Red, Idaho Red and Arizona Red.  Once in power in these states the majority with the power can gerrymander and use their influence in the legislation's to remain in power.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I wasn't actually talking about the position of President. I understand how the electoral college works. I was actually talking about how each state gets to elect its government. I got the sense that some are permanently red or blue. Am I wrong in this ? Is power in some states entrenched in one party or the other, or is the norm to periodically switch over to the opposite party?



I live in Illinois.... Because of the dense population in the Northern part of the state..  (read...Chicago)... the Illinois legislature is ususally Democratic..  Illinois is a Blue state for the most part,  and that's how we vote in the Presidential elections..  However, we have a history of flip flopping with the Governors..  Right now we have a new Republican governor.. Bruce Rauner.   Unfortunately for Bruce..  the Illinois Democrats have a super-majority in the State House... so it is unlikely Rouner will be able to push through any of his far right agenda..  Mike Madigan is the Speaker of the Illinois House... and he eats Republicans for breakfast.. so I am not concerned that Rouner will create any problems.


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## Warrigal (Feb 13, 2015)

As I said earlier, something wrong with the system that allows gerrymandering to occur. 
We've eliminated this practice by setting up an independent authority to manage all elections. It is the Australian Election Authority and they decide on boundary changes as population shift requires them. They are entirely impartial in the way it is done and they are also responsible for the conduct of elections and election campaigns to make sure the rules are not breached. 

We may not like the outcome of our elections but there is integrity in the system.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 13, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> As I said earlier, something wrong with the system that allows gerrymandering to occur.
> We've eliminated this practice by setting up an independent authority to manage all elections. It is the Australian Election Authority and they decide on boundary changes as population shift requires them. They are entirely impartial in the way it is done and they are also responsible for the conduct of elections and election campaigns to make sure the rules are not breached.
> 
> We may not like the outcome of our elections but there is integrity in the system.




I agree.... gerrymandering is legal cheating... but what can be done about it.  The legislture of every state has a right to draw a redistricting map after every US census..   There is nothing stopping them from drawing the lines where they choose..   Each party will draw the map to benefit them in who gets sent to Washington..


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## Warrigal (Feb 13, 2015)

Well, it could start in one or two states. They could agree to set up an body independent of the legislature to run and oversee voting processes, including disputed returns, and give them the power to redraw electoral boundaries as necessary after each census with very strict guidelines about how they should be drawn. If, or when, the benefits become obvious to the voters then perhaps other state would be obliged to follow suit by popular demand. When enough states are on board,  these separate authorities could be linked up in a national system.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 16, 2015)

Shirley said:


> I am a Republican. I'd as soon be attacked by a pack of vicious, rabid dogs as post my opinions here. I think the dogs would likely be kinder.



I'm with you shirley, I saw you had posted here which is the only reason I am.  I'm just going to stick to reading/watching the candidates and issues and make my choices.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 16, 2015)

Kinda quiet since we were isolated here in Political Discussions.  Maybe we'll have some hot button political issue soon we can tackle with vigor. It's a good thing though that those who don't like the heat that comes with strong  political opinions can block this and  not even see anything posted here.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 16, 2015)

Yeah...   I really like that a separate forum was created for Politics..  That way those that are upset by it don't even have to look or be tempted to open threads should they desire to stay out of it..


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