# The Myth of Canadian Innocence.



## Debby (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm posting this link for the sake of any of the American folks on this forum and primarily so that you don't think that I'm solely picking on Americans.
It deals with the myth of 'Canadian global innocence' that my country has wrapped itself in since long before my time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/dr-lisa-tomlinson/canada-violence_b_6050702.html

From the link:  

"...Canada has always done a great job in concealing its wrong-doings against humanity and has successfully hidden behind the coattail of its American and British imperial overlords. Many of her atrocities committed in history and in current times have literally gone unnoticed by the wider global community or censored and white-washed by the Canadian media...."

Just as I've said about American media, our media has done it's own version of coverup that has benefited our government in a multitude of ways through the decades.  It's NOT just the American government, it's all governments or almost all governments that have ulterior motives for their actions that have no justification and no basis in concern for the individual and particularly the individuals in the countries that we manipulate.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

Hi Debbie. 
I see you are getting as much attention talking about Canada's sins as I did when talking about Australia's imperfections :lol:

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/9468-What-we-focus-on-tends-to-predict-our-behaviour

Never mind, we two can have a discussion on the theme "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" as it applies to nations.

If this is to be a debate, do you want to be the Affirmative or the Opposition regarding my proposed topic?

However, from now on, people cannot really complain about us butting in and voicing the occasional adverse observations about our great and powerful friend, and in your case, neighbour. 
I know, I'm a very:badgirl: but I just can't help myself some days.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 27, 2014)

Maybe we see no point in harping on the negatives constantly?   Besides, I suspect joining in will just being on more negatives.. What exactly are you both looking for?  For us to agree with you?  Or tell you .. It's ok.... We are worse?   I think we feel that no matter how we respond it will be wrong..


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 27, 2014)

I think Australia, Canada, UK and the United States all have negatives that are covered up by the politicians and the main stream media.  Recently there's been school student and teacher "strikes" here objecting to AP history taught in schools.  They want to only teach the positive things about America in our history books, and sweep all the bad things under the rug.  The strikes are by those who want the truth taught, good or bad, which is the way it should be.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

No, the point I was making in a roundabout way is that there is very little interest in anything outside the US unless it directly affects the US. Understandable on a mostly US forum. However, that should not preclude outsiders passing comments on US matters when they are raised.

I'm feeling a bit like I have to be a paid up member of the club to have a voice on some issues.

I'll get over it.

On the question of what am I looking for, I guess some recognition that the myth of American exceptionalism is just that, a myth. We're all a lot more alike than different, with similar virtues and faults as people and as nations. It's just that some nations are a lot bigger and a lot more powerful that others, and that is a fact that the big nations don't always fully appreciate.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

Now, I'm taking the affirmative and pointing to something on TV over here last night.
The Australian government and the majority of Australians have an irrational fear and loathing of what are termed "boat people".
The current government won power by continually braying three word slogans, one of which was "Stop the boats". 

It, and the previous government, which on all other issues I tended to support, have behaved heartlessly towards asylum seekers and decided that some could be returned to their homelands because they were now "safe". This included Hazaras from Afghanistan and Tamils fro Sri Lanka.

The TV program told the story of one Hazara man returned to Kabul. He had fled the Taliban but intelligence suggested that they were no longer in his home province. The trouble was that he was not returned to his home province but to Kabul and left to travel a long way to get to safety - through Taliban controlled territory.

He was picked up, found with an Australian driver's licence and tortured. So much for safety.

If he hadn't managed to escape we would never have known what happened to this man, a genuine refugee, who we couldn't find room for in this country.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...-failed-asylum-seekers-to-afghanistan/5845544
*Video:* Returned Hazara held hostage by Taliban (Lateline)       

Not only are we heartless, we are also mercenary. We charge these poor sods for deporting them.



> *Man could suffer persecution from Taliban*
> 
> The 20-year-old man, who is due to be deported today, arrived in Australia in May 2012 and claims to be from the same district as Mr Naseri.
> 
> ...



We can't do much to change history but we can change what we are doing wrong in this present time. We need to know about it though. There is a reason to focus on certain negatives.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 27, 2014)

Wow, I don't know much about these issues, but that did seem to be really coldhearted by the Australian government not only to deport these people, but to also fine them?  Seems like this fella had a little taste of heaven in his stay in Sydney.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 27, 2014)

> On the question of what am I looking for, I guess some recognition that the myth of American exceptionalism is just that, a myth. We're all a lot more alike than different, with similar virtues and faults as people and as nations. It's just that some nations are a lot bigger and a lot more powerful that others, and that is a fact that the big nations don't always fully appreciate.



See this is exactly what I thought this was about.. Just a backdoor way of getting some sort of admission out of Americans, that we aren't as great as we always though we are.      I don't quite understand why that is so important to you?   It almost seems like an obscession.   I'm not interested in that..  This isn't a game of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours"  only to have it pointed out that mine... or rather ours... is worse.  Because I know that's where it would be headed.   

I think Americans are so very weary of being the brunt of everyones joke and distaste that we would rather not get into any debates over other countries flaws.. it's not that we are not interested.. we are just wary of it.   Maybe I'm wrong.. and I don't want to speak for everyone.. but that's my take.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

What sticks in my craw the most is that our PM and his Min for Immigration are both practising Christians - one RC and the other evangelical. The former seems to be oblivious to catholic social justice teaching and the latter ignores the prophets' call to a life of justice, mercy and compassion. Both have replaces love in their hearts with love of power.

Of course they are not alone in this. Many of their co-politicians on both sides of the dispatch boxes are equally blinded by ambition.


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## BobF (Oct 27, 2014)

The US is trying to do something similar, but not doing well at is right now.   We are trying to stop these daily groups that come over our southern borders without permission.   There are proper ways for hardship acceptance into the US which can and should be used.   Many sneak in and the try to hide somewhere in the US.   They do jobs without government permission and take whatever they can get for wages.   False ID's to make things look legal.   Use the school system for their children, created and born here or imported over the border by sneaking in or by having them come on a bus.   Once in, no way do they want to leave.   The US has offered these folks to step out of the shadows and be known but they often refuse as they know that for certain reasons they can be deported, many are.   They also take advantage of our hospitals systems emergency rooms for medical care.  These folks are a big cost to the US as they are.   If properly brought into the US system they would be less costly and when they do work the US would be able to take taxes from their wages to help pay for their costs.

The US does not want to deny wishes from folks around the world to live here and we help them all if they apply and try to be honest about it.   Those that just try to sneak in are the ones that cause us so much concern.   Many get lost in the desert and die.   Many are criminals and we don't need them nor do the others coming in with them as they often get involved in activities they would likely not want to do without the criminal forcing them to do so.

We do deport many of those identified and then find them back in the US.    One currently was deported twice but now is being held for a murder.   Our border problem is still out of control.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

Again QuickSilver, I must protest. I am proving a point but not really what you think.

Americans value freedom of speech and so do I but I get the feeling sometimes that, while debate ranges freely on this forum, it is not acceptable for a foreigner to enter the debate in any critical way. The cry  "America bashing" rings out and I feel that I have to apologise or at least make appeasement. Or hold back. My original point in posting was to test whether any Americans are interested in issues that relate to my country, which they weren't. Only Debbie replied although dozens viewed. ( https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/9468-What-we-focus-on-tends-to-predict-our-behaviour )

Then Debbie, also no doubt feeling that her critical voice was illegitimate because she is Canadian, posted along similar lines and I waited to see who responded. Only me as it happens (until your post) and I saw the same general reluctance to discuss a Canadian issue. Not even the Brits showed any interest.

Where does that leave us if we want to talk about serious issues ? It leaves us talking about American issues if we want to belong to the forum in any meaningful way. There's a fine line we must tread because diplomacy and good manners are better than abrasive or inflammatory posts but if all that is wanted from us, from me in particular, is flattery then I have to say that that is not my style.

We live in a global world yet have still so much to learn from people outside our own borders. We learn when we hear all the voices, especially those who don't agree with ourselves.

Perhaps I should retreat to Speakers Corner for awhile where all views, politely expressed, are acceptable.


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## BobF (Oct 27, 2014)

Warrigal, I never post any political stuff in Australian forums as that is when folks get really upset and start name calling and trash talk.   I try to avoid that if possible so never comment on government styles and lifestyles I know little about.   For some from other countries that does not seem to be a measure for them a they do become somewhat annoying when they say 'why doesn't your congress do as our parliament does.   Comments like that really irritate me as the answer to a question like that is 'because our countries are different and made to operate differently'.    If the people of this country or another want changes, then it is up to them to change their countries ways, not me, and just the same for them, my country for me and not them. 

This does show some reason for the separation of debate from certain topics.


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## Warrigal (Oct 27, 2014)

I dunno Bobf. I remember that you and I had quite a few lengthy exchanges in another place. Each of us argued away from opposite directions, never really convincing the other to change opinions, but I did learn from you. It wasn't a waste of time IMO.

Thanks for contributing on this occasion


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 27, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> See this is exactly what I thought this was about.. Just a backdoor way of getting some sort of admission out of Americans, that we aren't as great as we always though we are.
> 
> I think Americans are so very weary of being the brunt of everyones joke and distaste that we would rather not get into any debates over other countries flaws.. it's not that we are not interested.. we are just wary of it.   Maybe I'm wrong.. and I don't want to speak for everyone.. but that's my take.



I've never been very political or much of a news buff, but I have to say that although I love America, born and raised in the USA and wouldn't want to live anywhere else in this world, my modest knowledge of American politics have dampened my views of America over the years.  I don't like hearing all those jokes, but some of them I can understand.

 From learning some things in alternative media, that is glossed over and covered up on the main stream local news reports, I'm aware of a lot of political corruption behind the scenes, and that has soured my thoughts on America.  Not the country or the people in general, but the powers that be, including government, corporate interests, etc.



Dame Warrigal said:


> Then Debbie, also no doubt feeling that her critical voice was illegitimate because she is Canadian, posted along similar lines and I waited to see who responded. Only me as it happens (until your post) and I saw the same general reluctance to discuss a Canadian issue. Not even the Brits showed any interest.
> 
> We live in a global world yet have still so much to learn from people outside our own borders. We learn when we hear all the voices, especially those who don't agree with ourselves.



I responded too, but perhaps invisible as I didn't have too much to say.  I agreed with Debby that all countries, including the US have negative things that are either covered up by their politicians, or white-washed in the news reports to make things sound more righteous than they really are.  I don't know much about other countries, so I don't get involved in some of these discussions, but that doesn't mean I don't read them to learn from what others are saying.



BobF said:


> I try to avoid that if possible so never comment on government styles and lifestyles I know little about.   For some from other countries that does not seem to be a measure for them a they do become somewhat annoying when they say 'why doesn't your congress do as our parliament does.   Comments like that really irritate me as the answer to a question like that is 'because our countries are different and made to operate differently'.    If the people of this country or another want changes, then it is up to them to change their countries ways, not me, and just the same for them, my country for me and not them.
> 
> This does show some reason for the separation of debate from certain topics.



You make some good point Bob.  I don't like to see any rude comments made about any country, I've seen some putting down the UK for example, that was uncalled for.  I think we should all respect where other members are from, and should be able to discuss the pros and cons of any country without the childish mine is better than yours arguments.  

Aside from all of the issues and problems facing America, that have been present for many years now, I love it here and I imagine others feel the same about their countries too.  Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can.


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## Warrigal (Oct 28, 2014)

> Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can



Yes, but I'd modify this slightly to read  "Take the good, and try to make changes when you can to the bad things that can be made better."
That's what I try to do where I can but no-one person can be effective without rallying others to the cause. That's what consciousness raising is all about.

The cause I'm most passionate about is the children, all of them innocent of any crime, that my country confines behind razor wire. I hate that my country is capable of such callous cruelty to children. I've been speaking out on this issue for roughly fifteen years, writing letters to politicians and debunking lies told on forums about asylum seekers, including stories about how they are better treated than our own pensioners. 

I'll keep doing it until it is no longer necessary, however it is fairly pointless to keep banging on about it on this forum because it is no an American issue.


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## Warrigal (Oct 28, 2014)

Sorry about this, but the floodgates have been opened.

Tonight's news report - background first.

Our government refuses asylum seekers access to the mainland and sends them either to Manus Island (PNG) for single males or Nauru for families, women and unaccompanied minor children. They have a deal where some may live outside the detention camp in the community but they are far from safe.



> *Unaccompanied child refugees on Nauru report beatings, death threats*
> 
> Four unaccompanied boys living in the community on Nauru end up in hospital after assault on Sunday leaves one unconscious
> Ben Doherty
> ...


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 28, 2014)

You Commonwealth types need to come to grips with your place in the order of thing.  We rule, you follow, even if we lead you down some questionable paths...


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## Warrigal (Oct 28, 2014)

:tongue:


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 28, 2014)

Try to show a little more respect to your betters...


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## QuickSilver (Oct 28, 2014)

> Aside from all of the issues and problems facing America, that have been present for many years now, I love it here and I imagine others feel the same about their countries too. Take the good with the bad, and try to make changes when you can.



My feelings too.  I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  I realize we have our warts.. but I love my country and I do what I can to vote for folks I feel best.. That's about all individual citizens of any country can do.  We can work collectively to effect change, but an individual on his/her own is powerless.  That's what honks me off so much about the perceived American bashing.. What the heck to you want ME to do about these things.. Just be a sounding board for your criticism?   I'm not a very compliant sounding board... that I admit.. freely.     As for discussing the faults of others?  Why bother?  What can THEY do about it?   Not any more than I can.   So pointing out everyones flaws accomplishes exactly what?   It soon turns into a  "Yeah? Well, so's your mother!!!" exchange..  And just get's my back up.  So I don't bother.


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## JustQuinn (Oct 28, 2014)

Ralphy  has  seen that  same  symbol  many times  before  DW!


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## Warrigal (Oct 28, 2014)

That was the polite version. :rofl:
I's a wild colonial girl.


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 28, 2014)

Watch out, Oz could be on our short list for invasion...


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## BobF (Oct 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> I dunno Bobf. I remember that you and I had quite a few lengthy exchanges in another place. Each of us argued away from opposite directions, never really convincing the other to change opinions, but I did learn from you. It wasn't a waste of time IMO.
> 
> Thanks for contributing on this occasion



Warrigal, I did not debate folks about the US.   What I have often done is defend the US from lots of nasty remarks by others.   I did little to tell others that they should change their governments as that is not my desire.   I still think that way about things.   Tell me the US should change their government and the way we live and I defend the US.   One common argument often started by Australians is about our gun laws.  There is no need for the US to attempt to follow Australia into restricted gun laws as that only takes things away from the honest and good people, not the criminals that don't care about laws.   That is the kind of stuff I will post about for the benefit of the US.   In the case of the gun laws, it is not some law applied to the people at all.    It is something right in our Constitution and that means it can not be changed until our Constitution is changed.   Not a trivial effort to do.


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## Debby (Oct 28, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Maybe we see no point in harping on the negatives constantly?   Besides, I suspect joining in will just being on more negatives.. What exactly are you both looking for?  For us to agree with you?  Or tell you .. It's ok.... We are worse?   I think we feel that no matter how we respond it will be wrong..




The point is to demonstrate that no nation or government is 100% good and that the propensity to ignore ones own 'sins' does nothing for fostering a good, healthy debate nor does it encourage peace in the world.  So I'm not hiding and I gather that Dame Warrigal chooses not to hide either.  It's only when the dirty laundry gets aired that positive change is forthcoming.

We all have something to lose and maybe by discussing what the possibilities/probabilities might be if our governments pursue certain agendas that our voting efforts are actually informed by truth instead of the propaganda that all governments seem to feed the people these days in order to further negative agenda's, my own government included.  

And for those who prefer to vote out of ignorance or even simply live in ignorance, well maybe one day they too will begin to understand when bad things happen....because they happened to read somewhere......?.......


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## Ameriscot (Oct 28, 2014)

I'm steering clear of this fight.  I've been in far too many on another forum I'm a member of (majority US members but members from around the world) which has every topic there could be.  A lot of bashing and comparing US to other countries, etc. and I've been drawn into it.  I've been avoiding those topics lately and will probably just quit that forum.  So I don't really want to get heavily into politics, etc on here.  

I do have an interest in the US (being American), the UK and Europe, and Australia as some of my favourite inlaws live there.  Also an interest in Africa in general since I lived there as well.  

Continue on without me.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 28, 2014)

Debby said:


> The point is to demonstrate that no nation or government is 100% good and that the propensity to ignore ones own 'sins' does nothing for fostering a good, healthy debate nor does it encourage peace in the world.  So I'm not hiding and I gather that Dame Warrigal chooses not to hide either.  It's only when the dirty laundry gets aired that positive change is forthcoming.
> 
> We all have something to lose and maybe by discussing what the possibilities/probabilities might be if our governments pursue certain agendas that our voting efforts are actually informed by truth instead of the propaganda that all governments seem to feed the people these days in order to further negative agenda's, my own government included.
> 
> And for those who prefer to vote out of ignorance or even simply live in ignorance, well maybe one day they too will begin to understand when bad things happen....because they happened to read somewhere......?.......



I believe that most Americans are well aware of the faults and flaws of America.   I know I am..  So I do what I can to vote in people I believe can help.  I'm not sure if you were referring to me... however, I certainly do NOT vote out of ignorance.. why would you say that?   I am very well informed and know exactly what is going on in our government..  Perhaps YOU believe differently.. but that is only your opinion.  and you know what they say about opinions... 

The fact that I don't want to debate it with YOU?   Is that the problem you and DM have?  Why should I?  Why discuss it?  It's not going to change anything.. Not here and not in Canada..  It's just going to cause problems.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 28, 2014)

Ameriscot said:


> I'm steering clear of this fight.  I've been in far too many on another forum I'm a member of (majority US members but members from around the world) which has every topic there could be.  A lot of bashing and comparing US to other countries, etc. and I've been drawn into it.  I've been avoiding those topics lately and will probably just quit that forum.  So I don't really want to get heavily into politics, etc on here.
> 
> I do have an interest in the US (being American), the UK and Europe, and Australia as some of my favourite inlaws live there.  Also an interest in Africa in general since I lived there as well.
> 
> Continue on without me.



This is what I am trying to explain to Debby and DW..  I'm simply tired of it and explaining why.  Yet I guess that makes us fair game again.. SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

If I am going to get into a political debate, I'm more inclined to debate another American, particularly a Right Winger..  I completely and totally disagree with just about everything they have to say, but I know that they love America..  despite their misguided etiology.  lol!!


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## Debby (Oct 28, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> I think Australia, Canada, UK and the United States all have negatives that are covered up by the politicians and the main stream media.  Recently there's been school student and teacher "strikes" here objecting to AP history taught in schools.  They want to only teach the positive things about America in our history books, and sweep all the bad things under the rug.  The strikes are by those who want the truth taught, good or bad, which is the way it should be.




Too true SeaBreeze.  I was reading yesterday that Canada's politicians were front and centre when Jean Claude Aristede of Haiti was removed from power by a coalition of Canada, the US and France.  I had never heard that - it was kept secret at the time.  What wasn't secret (in Canada) was that at the same time the party that did it was found to have 'given' $100 million dollars to PR firms in Quebec seemingly for no reason.  The Liberals actually got punished by the Canadian voter and lost their seat as the government and yet the article I read seemed to suggest that the money was handed over to those firms to work at PR that made the coup in Haiti seem like it was a good thing, when in fact Aristede was extremely popular and from what I read on Wikipedia, was a man with a real heart for the people.  But of course, the outgoing government never mentioned that nor did the incoming (if they knew) because it would have a terrible admission of ulterior motives and guilt and let's face it, Canada has had a 'historic reputation as a peace-keeper nation' so it wouldn't have sat very well if the government had said to the people, well, 'we lied to you and we just finished eliminating a democratically elected government leader'.

So yes, I agree SeaBreeze that we need to know the truth in every action and we need to teach all the kids the truth instead of the half-baked misinformation and sometimes outright lies that we're fed now.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 28, 2014)

Debby said:


> Too true SeaBreeze.  I was reading yesterday that Canada's politicians were front and centre when Jean Claude Aristede of Haiti was removed from power by a coalition of Canada, the US and France.  I had never heard that - it was kept secret at the time.  What wasn't secret (in Canada) was that at the same time the party that did it was found to have 'given' $100 million dollars to PR firms in Quebec seemingly for no reason.  The Liberals actually got punished by the Canadian voter and lost their seat as the government and yet the article I read seemed to suggest that the money was handed over to those firms to work at PR that made the coup in Haiti seem like it was a good thing, when in fact Aristede was extremely popular and from what I read on Wikipedia, was a man with a real heart for the people.  But of course, the outgoing government never mentioned that nor did the incoming (if they knew) because it would have a terrible admission of ulterior motives and guilt and let's face it, Canada has had a 'historic reputation as a peace-keeper nation' so it wouldn't have sat very well if the government had said to the people, well, 'we lied to you and we just finished eliminating a democratically elected government leader'.
> 
> *So yes, I agree SeaBreeze that we need to know the truth in every action and we need to teach all the kids the truth instead of the half-baked misinformation and sometimes outright lies that we're fed now*.



I do agree with this.  There are things about the US I'm just finding out now in my 60's and I think we should have been taught the truth in school.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 28, 2014)

Ameriscot said:


> I do agree with this.  There are things about the US I'm just finding out now in my 60's and I think we should have been taught the truth in school.




I second that.  I believe the truth should be taught in schools.  There is a big push now alter school curriculum to fit in with political ideology.. that's wrong.  Teach the facts.. and stop with the agendas.


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## Debby (Oct 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Sorry about this, but the floodgates have been opened.
> 
> Tonight's news report - background first.
> 
> Our government refuses asylum seekers access to the mainland and sends them either to Manus Island (PNG) for single males or Nauru for families, women and unaccompanied minor children. They have a deal where some may live outside the detention camp in the community but they are far from safe.




That's really awful!  Poor kids to have to go through this kind of abuse!  What's the matter with people?


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## Debby (Oct 28, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> My feelings too.  I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  I realize we have our warts.. but I love my country and I do what I can to vote for folks I feel best.. That's about all individual citizens of any country can do.  We can work collectively to effect change, but an individual on his/her own is powerless.  That's what honks me off so much about the perceived American bashing.. What the heck to you want ME to do about these things.. Just be a sounding board for your criticism?   I'm not a very compliant sounding board... that I admit.. freely.     As for discussing the faults of others?  Why bother?  What can THEY do about it?   Not any more than I can.   So pointing out everyones flaws accomplishes exactly what?   It soon turns into a  "Yeah? Well, so's your mother!!!" exchange..  And just get's my back up.  So I don't bother.




Most folks in the West wouldn't want to live anywhere else and you probably don't need any polls to prove that.  I guess what's important is that people are willing to listen, hear and acknowledge 'the warts' if they aren't aware at that point.  

Taking the attitude that every discussion must turn into a 'yeah, so's your mother' is counter productive.  That's grade school but it's time to be adults who see the issues, acknowledge them, discuss them and vote based on that.  Unfortunately, you're right, it does seem to develop into a p***ing match too often which is not what I for one am looking for.  And considering that most discussions these days are probably being monitored and recorded, perhaps a change in the 'atmosphere' of acceptance by the public will become noticed by the governments and taken into consideration as they plan the next time they're intending to screw us.  We can hope can't we?

And you know, the thing you should also remember, that as much as you know about politics and what governments are doing, there are tons of people who don't have the slightest clue.  My mother for one, who listens to news on tv constantly, both American and Canadian, and as far as she is concerned, what she hears is gospel.  So when we discuss it here, there are bound to be lurkers who won't contribute, but they are reading and possibly becoming informed. Thats a valid reason for open forum discussions.


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## Warrigal (Oct 28, 2014)

Just heard on the radio that it has come out that one of our SAS officers in Afghanistan cut off the right hands of four dead Afghanis. He was allowed to take fingerprints for identification purposes but I think I've heard earlier he didn't have the right equipment to he just collected the hands. Not sure whether he did all four at the same time. The mutilation of our dead happens too and we don't like it either. People never forget such things and the fruits are hatred and retribution.


When we wonder why western nations (is that non specific enough?) are hated by the people who we think should be appreciating everything we do for them it is the small but symbolic events that we need to consider. Mutilating the dead is anathema to most Muslims and foreigners doing it is very inflammatory. So is a small town preacher who publically burns a copy of the Quran on the evening news.

Some things have to be done but there is a lot that is totally unnecessary and counter productive to achieving a peaceful outcome.

Edit - Here is the account. US operations were affected by this incident. Three hands not four.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-...-after-taliban-fighters-hands-cut-off/5849090


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 29, 2014)

The enemy has to be demonized for the troops to want to butcher them.  I recall some of the propaganda posters of the past, such as one with ugly "nips" raping and bayoneting babies (which some did)...


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## Debby (Oct 29, 2014)

It seems like the Geneva Convention is ignored regularly as I've noticed in another situation that it's been ignored for over fifty years by a certain signatory.
What's the point of signing agreements if military disregards them at will?  In this case it said specifically:

Article 15 of the Geneva convention states: "At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled."

I think the second comment in Dame Warrigal's link is very apt:  
"People seem to be missing the real story here: the ADF investigation into the source of the leaked information has closed with no result. One of the main pillars of a Free Democracy is an INFORMED public. Recent legislations to punish whistleblowers and muzzle the press are doing more to destroy Australian democracry than al Qaeda or ISIL ever could. (the best traitors of course are moles inside, eh George?)."

I think the same could be said of other countries in the West.  Within hours of Corporal Cirillo dying, my own government gives more power to our own spy agency which means we've lost a little more of our privacy.  One can only wonder, what's going to disappear next?


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## Ralphy1 (Oct 29, 2014)

Perhaps you, beware of a knock on the door at three in the morning...


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## Debby (Oct 29, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Perhaps you, beware of a knock on the door at three in the morning...




I have a guard-chihuahua so I'm not worried.


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## Warrigal (Oct 29, 2014)

Nasty little brutes. :lofl:


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