# Is The Lockdown Paradigm Collapsing?



## JonDouglas

The American Institute For Economic Research thinks so. They write:

I_t’s taken much longer than it should have but at last it seems to be happening: the lockdown paradigm is collapsing. The signs are all around us._​​_The one-time hero of the lockdown, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, has seen his support tank from 71% to 38%, along with ever more demands that he resign. Meanwhile, polls have started to favor Florida governor and lockdown opponent Ron DeSantis for influence over the GOP in the future. This remarkable flip in fortunes is due to the dawning realization that the lockdowns were a disastrous policy. DeSantis and fellow anti-lockdown governor Kristi Noem are the first to state the truth bluntly. Their honesty has won them both credibility._​​_Meanwhile, in Congressional hearings, Representative James Jordan (R-OH) demanded that Dr. Fauci account for why closed Michigan has worse disease prevalence than neighboring Wisconsin which has long been entirely open. Fauci pretended he couldn’t hear the question, couldn’t see the chart, and then didn’t understand. Finally he just sat there silent after having uttered a few banalities about enforcement differentials._​​_The lockdowners are now dealing with the huge problem of Texas. It has been fully open with no restrictions for 6 weeks. Cases and deaths fell dramatically in the same period. Fauci has no answer. Or compare closed California with open Florida: similar death rates. We have a full range of experiences in the US that allow comparisons between open and closed and disease outcomes. There is no relationship._​​It has long been noted that lockdowns are a substitute for quarantines and suggested there's little or no reason to quarantine healthy people and damage the economy in the process.

Note:  Again, I would suggest this is another info point and not something needing denigration or Alinsky-type attacks..


----------



## Murrmurr

There was a lot of paper-writing about herd immunity early in the pandemic; that to achieve herd immunity you needed both the vaccine and natural immunity (exposure). But then Pfizer applied for a patent on the vaccine and there was a shift in the paradigm.

(Not sure but I think that patent is being held up....last I read, anyway. Maybe other corporations want a piece.)


----------



## SetWave

If a true lockdown was adhered to by one and all then the outcome would be very different.


----------



## JonDouglas

Murrmurr said:


> There was a lot of paper-writing about herd immunity early in the pandemic; that to achieve herd immunity you needed both the vaccine and natural immunity (exposure). But then Pfizer applied for a patent on the vaccine and there was a shift in the paradigm.
> 
> (Not sure but I think that patent is being held up....last I read, anyway. Maybe other corporations want a piece.)


One thing you can say about lockdowns is that they sell folks (who do you think is paying) a lot of vaccine shots and make a ton of money in the process.


----------



## JonDouglas

SetWave said:


> If a true lockdown was adhered to by one and all then the outcome would be very different.


You know this how?


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> The American Institute For Economic Research thinks so. They write:
> 
> I_t’s taken much longer than it should have but at last it seems to be happening: the lockdown paradigm is collapsing. The signs are all around us._​​_The one-time hero of the lockdown, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, has seen his support tank from 71% to 38%, along with ever more demands that he resign. Meanwhile, polls have started to favor Florida governor and lockdown opponent Ron DeSantis for influence over the GOP in the future. This remarkable flip in fortunes is due to the dawning realization that the lockdowns were a disastrous policy. DeSantis and fellow anti-lockdown governor Kristi Noem are the first to state the truth bluntly. Their honesty has won them both credibility._​​_Meanwhile, in Congressional hearings, Representative James Jordan (R-OH) demanded that Dr. Fauci account for why closed Michigan has worse disease prevalence than neighboring Wisconsin which has long been entirely open. Fauci pretended he couldn’t hear the question, couldn’t see the chart, and then didn’t understand. Finally he just sat there silent after having uttered a few banalities about enforcement differentials._​​_The lockdowners are now dealing with the huge problem of Texas. It has been fully open with no restrictions for 6 weeks. Cases and deaths fell dramatically in the same period. Fauci has no answer. Or compare closed California with open Florida: similar death rates. We have a full range of experiences in the US that allow comparisons between open and closed and disease outcomes. There is no relationship._​​It has long been noted that lockdowns are a substitute for quarantines and suggested there's little or no reason to quarantine healthy people and damage the economy in the process.
> 
> Note:  Again, I would suggest this is another info point and not something needing denigration or Alinsky-type attacks..


They've got to set people free, vaccinated or not. because they are all losing popularity and their very jobs will follow. This is why lockdowns and mask mandates don't work in social democracies.


----------



## SetWave

JonDouglas said:


> You know this how?


Oh, I have no idea nor proof. Just spouting off as per the latest war of words we find ourselves tossing about these "daze".


----------



## fmdog44

I have four boxes of gloves (only two are new) and probably five containers of wipes and the same number of sprays and four bottles of isopropyl alcohol.


----------



## JonDouglas

chic said:


> They've got to set people free, vaccinated or not. because they are all losing popularity and their very jobs will follow. This is why lockdowns and mask mandates don't work in social democracies.


I have to wonder if lockdown states like NY, CA, et. al.  will loose more of their current crop of politicians or more people who're sick of their policies and move to a different state.


----------



## JonDouglas

Speaking of lockdowns and such, Cleveland.com had this bit of news today:

_COLUMBUS, Ohio - Gov. Mike DeWine is considering whether to change Ohio’s metric for ending coronavirus-related public health orders from case levels to vaccination levels, he said Wednesday..  More at __Cleveland.com__._​
_You might get the idea that this supports @chic 's point.  _


----------



## Aneeda72

JonDouglas said:


> One thing you can say about lockdowns is that they sell folks (who do you think is paying) a lot of vaccine shots and make a ton of money in the process.


They sell a lot of masks for non lockdowns, our state locked down, slightly, for a month or so.


----------



## Aneeda72

chic said:


> They've got to set people free, vaccinated or not. because they are all losing popularity and their very jobs will follow. This is why lockdowns and mask mandates don't work in social democracies.


The mask mandate date is still in force here


----------



## Pink Biz

*@JonDouglas what's up with all of your Saul Alinsky references?





*


----------



## JonDouglas

Aneeda72 said:


> They sell a lot of masks for non lockdowns, our state locked down, slightly, for a month or so.


Not to go off on a tangent but there was an article in Cancer.news suggesting (some) masks are laced with cancer-causing toxic chemicals. I no nothing about the source,m which references other sources, or validity of the information.


----------



## tbeltrans

Damn the lockdowns, full steam ahead.  It is high time we brought back the toga parties and swinger clubs of the 1970s.  
  

Tony


----------



## JonDouglas

Pink Biz said:


> *@JonDouglas what's up with all of your Saul Alinsky references?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Just helping to make people aware of this commonly used political tactic.  He wrote the book on how to radicalize (as opposed to logically approach) ideas and events.  Personally, I prefer shared information, logic and reasoning and think it will serve us better than essentially street brawling on the internet.  Here's a summary of Alinsky's tactics, so you can recognize them when you see them:


_1 "Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have."_
_2"Never go outside the expertise of your people."_
_3"Whenever possible go outside the expertise of the enemy."_
_4"Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."_
_5 "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. There is no defense. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."_
_6"A good tactic is one your people enjoy."_
_7 "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."_
_8"Keep the pressure on."_
_9"The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself. "_
_10 "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition."_
_11 "If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside; this is based on the principle that every positive has its negative."_
_12 "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."_
_13"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. _"
You can even see such tactics used on this forum from time to time.  It tends to stifle the flow of information.


----------



## Murrmurr

JonDouglas said:


> I have to wonder if lockdown states like NY, CA, et. al.  will loose more of their current crop of politicians or more people who're sick of their policies and move to a different state.


In California, people moved to other states at a rate of 5,000/year over the last 2 years, and this year that number is expected to nearly double. Major corporations have relocated, too.


----------



## win231

fmdog44 said:


> I have four boxes of gloves (only two are new) and probably five containers of wipes and the same number of sprays and four bottles of isopropyl alcohol.


I've gotcha beat.  I have 6 boxes of Nitrile gloves, 7 boxes of alcohol wipes & 5 bottles of alcohol.
But the gloves are for protecting my hands from gun cleaning chemicals.
The alcohol wipes are used when injecting insulin.
The alcohol is used in spray bottles so I can re-use my masks several times.


----------



## tbeltrans

Murrmurr said:


> In California, people moved to other states at a rate of 5,000/year over the last 2 years, and this year that number is expected to nearly double. Major corporations have relocated, too.


My older brother used to have a saying written on the cover of his school books back when we were in grade school.  It said "flunk now, avoid the June rush".

I avoided the California rush to leave by leaving when I went into the Army in 1970, and never looked back.  The only way I go back to LA is if I have a return ticket.  Since I am retired and don't need to go out there for business anymore, I only go for funerals.

When I first moved to the Twin Cities in 1978, I remember that one of the local radio stations had some sort of contest with the prize being an all expenses paid trip to Hollywood.  I was absolutely baffled as to why anyone would want to go there.  That was where all the runaways went and it was not a good part of town.  All that people thought of as Hollywood had left a long time ago.

Tony


----------



## Don M.

Murrmurr said:


> In California, people moved to other states at a rate of 5,000/year over the last 2 years, and this year that number is expected to nearly double. Major corporations have relocated, too.



Both California and New York are seeing more and more people moving to other States.  I suspect the ridiculous "cost of living" in those areas is a primary reason.  This pandemic has shown that many "office" jobs can easily be handled by people working from home....which is another incentive for many to leave the crowded/expensive cities/states.  States like California, New York, and Illinois have issues with their financing, which leads to higher corporate taxes, etc., and this will cause companies to move to other States.  

I have some cousins who lived/worked in the SF Bay area, and when they retired, they soon moved to Denver...where they claim their retirement money goes much further.


----------



## tbeltrans

Don M. said:


> Both California and New York are seeing more and more people moving to other States.  I suspect the ridiculous "cost of living" in those areas is a primary reason.  This pandemic has shown that many "office" jobs can easily be handled by people working from home....which is another incentive for many to leave the crowded/expensive cities/states.  States like California, New York, and Illinois have issues with their financing, which leads to higher corporate taxes, etc., and this will cause companies to move to other States.
> 
> I have some cousins who lived/worked in the SF Bay area, and when they retired, they soon moved to Denver...where they claim their retirement money goes much further.


There are a number of other additional reasons too (at least in California), but they have to do with politics so they can't be discussed here.

Tony


----------



## Don M.

tbeltrans said:


> There are a number of other additional reasons too (at least in California), but they have to do with politics so they can't be discussed here.
> 
> Tony


I hear ya.  When I see some of the political nonsense going on in some of the States, on the news, I fully understand why a lot of people might be getting fed up with that, and move to a more "sensible" part of the nation.


----------



## Jules

@JonDouglas, you’re correct about some masks being recalled because they contain a highly probable carcinogen, graphene.  This was done in Canada in March. These aren’t your standard masks.  

https://globalnews.ca/news/7736862/mask-recall-graphene/


----------



## chic

Aneeda72 said:


> The mask mandate date is still in force here


Here also because we have the misfortune to border New York. But Texas, fully open and mandate free, has better numbers than we do so it's all pretty useless unless it makes someone feel better and then they are free to wear a mask even if it's not mandated. Let the rest of us have the same option as well. The mask mandate is to keep people intimidated and afraid 24/7 that there is something abnormal and dangerous over which they are powerless. This alone would make a person sick.


----------



## StarSong

California has plenty of residents to spare.  Anyone who dislikes the politics is more than welcome to leave - and if they want to take a few friends with them, that's ok, too. 

It won't hurt the feelings of those of us who love California - trust me.


----------



## tbeltrans

StarSong said:


> California has plenty of residents to spare.  Anyone who dislikes the politics is more than welcome to leave - and if they want to take a few friends with them, that's ok, too.
> 
> It won't hurt the feelings of those of us who love California - trust me.


If I were to live in California again, I think Irvine would be a decent area to live in.  I always liked it there.

Back in 1970 when I left for the Army, my problem was not with politics, but instead that when I was going into the 5th grade, we moved from the Bay area down to the San Fernando Valley and I just never liked, nor adjusted to, the culture of the area.  I just wanted to get out of that area one way or another.  From my vantage point, my experience was not much different from any kid wanting new horizons and leaving the area in which he or she grew up.

I wish we had stayed up in the Bay area.  Now with the cost of living (at least as publicized, which may well be overstating the case as the media seems to do), I can see why my brother, the attorney stays in that area.  He seems to move between West Hollywood and Santa Monica every few years.  Being a partner in a law firm in downtown LA, he has a very comfortable income as does his wife in her admin position within the LA school system.

Tony


----------



## digifoss

StarSong said:


> California has plenty of residents to spare.  Anyone who dislikes the politics is more than welcome to leave - and if they want to take a few friends with them, that's ok, too.
> 
> It won't hurt the feelings of those of us who love California - trust me.


If someone is happy where they are, like you are in CA, they should stay and enjoy.  If anyone is unhappy where they are, they should consider how moving would affect their lives.  If they believe they would be better of elsewhere, they should look around.


----------



## StarSong

digifoss said:


> If someone is happy where they are, like you are in CA, they should stay and enjoy.  If anyone is unhappy where they are, they should consider how moving would affect their lives.  If they believe they would be better of elsewhere, they should look around.


Exactly.  


Murrmurr said:


> In California, people moved to other states at a rate of 5,000/year over the last 2 years, and this year that number is expected to nearly double. Major corporations have relocated, too.



Considering that California has a population of 39.5 million, and NY has 19.4 million, a net annual migration loss of 5,000 or 10,000 in each state doesn't create even the tiniest blip on their respective population radars.


----------



## Murrmurr

tbeltrans said:


> There are a number of other additional reasons too (at least in California), but they have to do with politics so they can't be discussed here.
> 
> Tony


The homeless population is nearly 200,000. That's just the ones who were counted, and they didn't do a count this year because, covid. About 35% of those 200,000 souls live on the streets of LA and large numbers of them are concentrated in San Fransisco, Sacramento, and San Jose.

These large county's "solution" to the problem is to allow the homeless to erect structures of any kind on public sidewalks, beaches, and parking lots as long as they are at least 10 feet from the entryway of a business or home. Businesses are closing, people put their homes up for sale and nobody is buying. Venice Beach is unrecognizable and tourism there is non-existent.


----------



## Murrmurr

StarSong said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> Considering that California has a population of 39.5 million, and NY has 19.4 million, a net annual migration loss of 5,000 or 10,000 in each state doesn't create even the tiniest blip on their respective population radars.


When large corporations leave, along with their wealthy CEOs, so does a large tax source. We'll be feeling the ripples soon enough.


----------



## Murrmurr

tbeltrans said:


> If I were to live in California again, I think Irvine would be a decent area to live in.  I always liked it there.
> 
> Back in 1970 when I left for the Army, my problem was not with politics, but instead that when I was going into the 5th grade, we moved from the Bay area down to the San Fernando Valley and I just never liked, nor adjusted to, the culture of the area.  I just wanted to get out of that area one way or another.  From my vantage point, my experience was not much different from any kid wanting new horizons and leaving the area in which he or she grew up.
> 
> I wish we had stayed up in the Bay area.  Now with the cost of living (at least as publicized, which may well be overstating the case as the media seems to do), I can see why my brother, the attorney stays in that area.  He seems to move between West Hollywood and Santa Monica every few years.  Being a partner in a law firm in downtown LA, he has a very comfortable income as does his wife in her admin position within the LA school system.
> 
> Tony


I would recommend northern California. Far north, up in the hills. Just be careful with matches.


----------



## Gaer

JonDouglas said:


> Just helping to make people aware of this commonly used political tactic.  He wrote the book on how to radicalize (as opposed to logically approach) ideas and events.  Personally, I prefer shared information, logic and reasoning and think it will serve us better than essentially street brawling on the internet.  Here's a summary of Alinsky's tactics, so you can recognize them when you see them:
> 
> 
> _1 "Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have."_
> _2"Never go outside the expertise of your people."_
> _3"Whenever possible go outside the expertise of the enemy."_
> _4"Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."_
> _5 "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. There is no defense. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."_
> _6"A good tactic is one your people enjoy."_
> _7 "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."_
> _8"Keep the pressure on."_
> _9"The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself. "_
> _10 "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition."_
> _11 "If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside; this is based on the principle that every positive has its negative."_
> _12 "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."_
> _13"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. _"
> You can even see such tactics used on this forum from time to time.  It tends to stifle the flow of information.


OH!  
I would run as far away from this manipulation as possible! I don't know who "Alinsky" is, but I would hate to know him!


----------



## Pepper

Cuomo's main problems centered around women making ****** accusations and not the lockdown. Actually, I heard this morning his ratings are going back up, and a female politician, whose name I forget but who is important in Albany, has been attending his recent events and is now praising him. She had called for his resignation.  Go figure.


----------



## Murrmurr

Gaer said:


> OH!
> I would run as far away from this manipulation as possible! I don't know who "Alinsky" is, but I would hate to know him!


Saul Alinsky was an American community activist and political theorist who wrote a couple books. His philosophy is pretty controversial.


----------



## SetWave

This is off topic but I don't care as the subject of California is very important to me.
I'm a sixth-generation offspring of California pioneers who either came across country in covered wagons or sailed to San Francisco around Cape Horn from Boston many many moons ago. Some of them became very successful in the founding of the state. I'm just a surf bum who will soon abandon my beloved home and, although I'll miss it, California is no longer the place I grew up loving dearly.
REM wrote a great song, "I Remember California".
Dennis Dragon, son of symphony conductor Carmen Dragon, the brother of Captain & Tennille's Daryl Dragon, and his band The Surf Punks wrote a terrific line that explains it all, "Remember Malibu before Pepperdine?"


----------



## Gaer

Murrmurr said:


> Saul Alinsky was an American community activist and political theorist who wrote a couple books. His philosophy is pretty controversial.


Thanks.  
but,
More than ever I don't care to know him or his philosophies.
My personal philosophies are his complete opposite!


----------



## Murrmurr

SetWave said:


> This is off topic but I don't care as the subject of California is very important to me.
> I'm a sixth-generation offspring of California pioneers who either came across country in covered wagons or sailed to San Francisco around Cape Horn from Boston many many moons ago. Some of them became very successful in the founding of the state. I'm just a surf bum who will soon abandon my beloved home and, although I'll miss it, *California is no longer the place I grew up loving dearly*.
> REM wrote a great song, "I Remember California".


Man, that's the truth. I grew up right here in the Sacramento area. The farm I spent my childhood on is a wasted empty field, bought by a developer back in the 70s. Not sure why development never happened but I think the state controls the land now...not sure. South side and mid-city is all gang turf now, and between those areas is Little Saigon, where hard working Vietnam immigrants' kids have formed rival gangs. That area is in decay and unsafe. And everywhere you look you see homeless encampments, garbage, and trash.


----------



## Pepper

SetWave said:


> Dennis Dragon, son of symphony conductor Carmen Dragon, the brother of Captain & Tennille's Daryl Dragon, and his band The Surf Punks wrote a terrific line that explains it all, *"Remember Malibu before Pepperdine?" *


That makes no sense to me.  Please explain.  And.................Dragon is a real last name?  How


----------



## StarSong

Murrmurr said:


> Man, that's the truth. I grew up right here in the Sacramento area. The farm I spent my childhood on is a wasted empty field, bought by a developer back in the 70s. Not sure why development never happened but I think the state controls the land now...not sure. South side and mid-city is all gang turf now, and between those areas is Little Saigon, where hard working Vietnam immigrants' kids have formed rival gangs. That area is in decay and unsafe. And everywhere you look you see homeless encampments, garbage, and trash.


My growing up years were spent (sequentially) in two small towns on the east coast.  They were a hundred miles apart, but both within commuting distance of Manhattan.  Neither has any resemblance to the no-traffic-lights towns I remember.  They've mushroomed in population and development, as have many areas of this country that lie within 75 miles of a large city. 

My grandparents often bemoaned the loss of a "country feel" of the Brooklyn, NY they grew up in.


----------



## chic

digifoss said:


> If someone is happy where they are, like you are in CA, they should stay and enjoy.  If anyone is unhappy where they are, they should consider how moving would affect their lives.  If they believe they would be better of elsewhere, they should look around.


I'm miserable where I live now and am prepared to look elsewhere because I no longer even see a future here.


----------



## SetWave

Pepper said:


> That makes no sense to me.  Please explain.  And.................Dragon is a real last name?  How


Malibu WAS a pristine part of the southern California coastline. Then came the snotty university and it's self-important residents. So, good-bye precious and pristine.  Dragon? Would you prefer . . . Smith or Jones???


----------



## Rosemarie

To get back to the subject.....we must bear in mind that this situation has never happened before, so politicians were not sure how to deal with it.
It was obvious that with global travel and different viruses, it would happen at some point and so we should have been prepared. Another case of....we'll deal with it when it happens.
One thing that has become clear....there are an alarming number of people who are unable to take responsibility for themselves. They can't even blow their own noses without instructions.


----------



## Murrmurr

Rosemarie said:


> To get back to the subject.....we must bear in mind that this situation has never happened before, so politicians were not sure how to deal with it.
> It was obvious that with global travel and different viruses, it would happen at some point and so we should have been prepared. Another case of....we'll deal with it when it happens.
> One thing that has become clear....there are an alarming number of people who are unable to take responsibility for themselves. They can't even blow their own noses without instructions.


True we never had a lock down before, but we've seen coronavirus before...with SARS and MERS, for example. And there was HIV a decade or 2 before that.


----------



## JonDouglas

I rode past a busy playground today, noting that nobody was wearing masks - not the kids, not the adults.  Personally, I think it's good thing, as the jeopardy has been overblown and it's time to get back to normal.  We now know, with some certainty, that covid deaths were grossly overcounted.


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> I rode past a busy playground today, noting that nobody was wearing masks - not the kids, not the adults.  Personally, I think it's good thing, as the jeopardy has been overblown and it's time to get back to normal.  We now know, with some certainty, that covid deaths were grossly overcounted.


I saw the opposite mostly and it makes life so sad in my state to see everyone masked and that terrified of this virus. I live in one of those states where the restrictions are so severe a person is barely alive, but it's nothing compared to what they are trying to set up for us via a vaccine passport. That would mean the end of freedom in America forever. This is such a terrifying time. I thought I was enlightened. I thought I was educated. 

But the conspiracy theorists I used to laugh at were right. I stand with them now.


----------



## JonDouglas

chic said:


> I saw the opposite mostly and it makes life so sad in my state to see everyone masked and that terrified of this virus. I live in one of those states where the restrictions are so severe a person is barely alive, but it's nothing compared to what they are trying to set up for us via a vaccine passport. That would mean the end of freedom in America forever. This is such a terrifying time. I thought I was enlightened. I thought I was educated.
> 
> But the conspiracy theorists I used to laugh at were right. I stand with them now.


As you know, one of the greatest tools available to politicians to control people is fear.


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> As you know, one of the greatest tools available to politicians to control people is fear.


That's exactly what they have been doing for 13 months. But what's coming is even worse because it's collusion between them and major corporations/big tech. New York already has a vaccine passport app. Yes, I'm scared but still defiant for what that is worth.


----------



## digifoss

I am taking my grandkids to the park playground tomorrow and we won't be wearing face muzzles.  Technically the mask rule is still on here but there are only a few places that enforce it like Walmart, the bank and dr office.  There are some die-hard maskers here like everywhere else but their numbers are dwindling.  Like the vaccine,  they can stick their masks as far as I am concerned.


----------



## StarSong

JonDouglas said:


> I rode past a busy playground today, noting that nobody was wearing masks - not the kids, not the adults.  Personally, I think it's good thing, as the jeopardy has been overblown and it's time to get back to normal.  *We now know, with some certainty, that covid deaths were grossly overcounted.*


We "know" this?


----------



## JonDouglas

StarSong said:


> We "know" this?


Perhaps not you but the CDC counting rules change tells the story if you don't buy all the anecdotal evidence.


----------



## StarSong

SetWave said:


> Malibu WAS a pristine part of the southern California coastline. Then came the snotty university and it's self-important residents. So, good-bye precious and pristine.  Dragon? Would you prefer . . . Smith or Jones???


Movie stars began the "Malibu Colony" back in the 1930s.  Its gorgeous weather, beautiful beach, and proximity to Los Angeles (and Hollywood) has always been a big drawing card.    

When I moved to Los Angeles in 1970, Malibu was already home to the wealthy. Pepperdine's Malibu campus didn't open up until 1972 (most of the land was donated to the university). 

Even so, I'm not sure what you have against Pepperdine. Its gorgeous campus is hardly a blight on the landscape. If it weren't there that land would undoubtedly be rows of expensive mansions. Can't see how that would be an improvement...


----------



## StarSong

JonDouglas said:


> Perhaps not you but the CDC counting rules change tells the story if you don't buy all the anecdotal evidence.


I look at evidence like the increase in deaths year over year.


----------



## JonDouglas

StarSong said:


> I look at evidence like the increase in deaths year over year.


Without looking into how they are classified, you wouldn't get a very good idea.  For example, if someone dies in an auto crash but had tested positive for covid or antibodies, it's counted most places as a covid death.  Also problematic is that the CDC has never been very good at counting so it has given great license for MEs, hospitals and physicians to cast a wide net.   If that doesn't satisfy you, how about written statements from the chief investigator for the Fulton County's Medical Examiner's office, Dennis McGowan.  He writes"

_Over the 30+ years that I spent managing aspects of death investigation, I was always determined to uncover every piece of information that would lead to the filing of an accurate death certificate.  That brings me to the big lie.  Death certificates are pretty uniform in their structure, and they call for strict accuracy in listing the relevant details.  There are five critical lines on a death certificate, each having its own contribution to the final conclusion._​​_The first (top) line is "Immediate Cause of Death."  This is where the actual terminal event is recorded.  This line is followed by three more, all labeled "Due To," where contributors to the immediate cause, in declining order, are listed.  An example of this structure might be Immediate Cause listed as Cerebral Hemorrhage, and the first Due To line might be Gunshot Wound.  Very direct.  In the event that there are other contributors in the cascade of Due To notations, they would follow, in descending order.  Finally, there is a line called "Other Significant Conditions," which serves as a catch-all for relevant, non-fatal items.  In the example above, this line might read Severe Depression to explain why there was a gunshot wound to the head._​​_You can imagine how many death certificates I've seen in my career, but you can't imagine the number of death certificates that are being fraudulently tallied in this current pandemic.  Someone in some bureaucrat's office decided that if COVID appears anywhere on a death certificate, it is counted as a COVID death, even if it isn't.  If COVID is on the Immediate Cause line, it is clearly a COVID death.  If it is on the first Due To line, it might be a COVID death in a person with a significant comorbidity.  If it is on the second or third Due To line, it may or may not have a role in the death, but if it appears in the Other Significant Conditions line, it is not a COVID death, yet it is being counted as one.  An example is the fellow who crashed his motorcycle and tested positive for COVID.  This is fraud masquerading as science._​​_How many actual COVID deaths have there been?  Who knows?  Last year, when the publicly advertised number hit 200,000, there was speculation that the actual number could be as low as 10 or 12 thousand.  Today, just based on statistical probability, it is certainly under the 500,000 reported in the media, and maybe a lot less.  Two publicly reported examples of this fraud are the fellow in Florida who died in a motorcycle crash but had been COVID-positive earlier and was certified as a COVID death, and then the two gunshot deaths in Colorado that were called COVID deaths because the decedents had been positive weeks before.  One study that has been released that has scientific integrity was from Minnesota, where the COVID positive rate was determined to be overstated by 40%._​​Whether you believe this or not is your issue, not mine.


----------



## StarSong

@JonDouglas: *Since Mr. McGowan retired from the Medical Examiner's office in 2004* and is now working as a patient and family advocate in a small hospital, his credibility and insider information regarding Covid death certificates are seriously limited.  

His few anecdotally cited cases (that may or may not be internet nonsense) does not invalidate the statistics, no more than a handful of unreported Covid deaths might. 

And whether you believe this or not, is your issue, not mine.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennis-mcgowan-3866305


----------



## JonDouglas

StarSong said:


> @JonDouglas: *Since Mr. McGowan retired from the Medical Examiner's office in 2004* and is now working as a patient and family advocate in a small hospital, his credibility and insider information regarding Covid death certificates are seriously limited.
> 
> His few anecdotally cited cases (that may or may not be internet nonsense) does not invalidate the statistics, no more than a handful of unreported Covid deaths might.
> 
> And whether you believe this or not, is your issue, not mine.
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennis-mcgowan-3866305


I suspect his retirement has little to do with what he knows about the process, given how such people maintain professional contacts.  I got the same information from people here locally who were concerned about how things were being reported.  Here's another clue from unu.edo for people with little appreciation for or familiarity with various statistical counting methods:

_However, instead of counting us all in the denominator — in many countries including the US — only people sick enough to go to the hospital are counted. People sick enough to go to the hospital are more likely to need critical care, and patients in critical condition are more likely to die than patients with mild symptoms. This means the fatality rate looks higher than it really is._​​_Further, even when we are testing — depending on the type of test used — we may only be counting people who are actively infected, not those who had it and are thus currently immune. This again will lead to an underestimate of the denominator._​


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> Without looking into how they are classified, you wouldn't get a very good idea.  For example, if someone dies in an auto crash but had tested positive for covid or antibodies, it's counted most places as a covid death.  Also problematic is that the CDC has never been very good at counting so it has given great license for MEs, hospitals and physicians to cast a wide net.   If that doesn't satisfy you, how about written statements from the chief investigator for the Fulton County's Medical Examiner's office, Dennis McGowan.  He writes"
> 
> _Over the 30+ years that I spent managing aspects of death investigation, I was always determined to uncover every piece of information that would lead to the filing of an accurate death certificate.  That brings me to the big lie.  Death certificates are pretty uniform in their structure, and they call for strict accuracy in listing the relevant details.  There are five critical lines on a death certificate, each having its own contribution to the final conclusion._​​_The first (top) line is "Immediate Cause of Death."  This is where the actual terminal event is recorded.  This line is followed by three more, all labeled "Due To," where contributors to the immediate cause, in declining order, are listed.  An example of this structure might be Immediate Cause listed as Cerebral Hemorrhage, and the first Due To line might be Gunshot Wound.  Very direct.  In the event that there are other contributors in the cascade of Due To notations, they would follow, in descending order.  Finally, there is a line called "Other Significant Conditions," which serves as a catch-all for relevant, non-fatal items.  In the example above, this line might read Severe Depression to explain why there was a gunshot wound to the head._​​_You can imagine how many death certificates I've seen in my career, but you can't imagine the number of death certificates that are being fraudulently tallied in this current pandemic.  Someone in some bureaucrat's office decided that if COVID appears anywhere on a death certificate, it is counted as a COVID death, even if it isn't.  If COVID is on the Immediate Cause line, it is clearly a COVID death.  If it is on the first Due To line, it might be a COVID death in a person with a significant comorbidity.  If it is on the second or third Due To line, it may or may not have a role in the death, but if it appears in the Other Significant Conditions line, it is not a COVID death, yet it is being counted as one.  An example is the fellow who crashed his motorcycle and tested positive for COVID.  This is fraud masquerading as science._​​_How many actual COVID deaths have there been?  Who knows?  Last year, when the publicly advertised number hit 200,000, there was speculation that the actual number could be as low as 10 or 12 thousand.  Today, just based on statistical probability, it is certainly under the 500,000 reported in the media, and maybe a lot less.  Two publicly reported examples of this fraud are the fellow in Florida who died in a motorcycle crash but had been COVID-positive earlier and was certified as a COVID death, and then the two gunshot deaths in Colorado that were called COVID deaths because the decedents had been positive weeks before.  One study that has been released that has scientific integrity was from Minnesota, where the COVID positive rate was determined to be overstated by 40%._​​Whether you believe this or not is your issue, not mine.


I agree though it's not popular here. This whole thing strikes me as a well constructed ploy for power and keeping it through instilling fear and conformity until people are paralyzed.


----------



## JonDouglas

Deleted


----------



## SetWave

StarSong said:


> Movie stars began the "Malibu Colony" back in the 1930s.  Its gorgeous weather, beautiful beach, and proximity to Los Angeles (and Hollywood) has always been a big drawing card.
> 
> When I moved to Los Angeles in 1970, Malibu was already home to the wealthy. Pepperdine's Malibu campus didn't open up until 1972 (most of the land was donated to the university).
> 
> Even so, I'm not sure what you have against Pepperdine. Its gorgeous campus is hardly a blight on the landscape. If it weren't there that land would undoubtedly be rows of expensive mansions. Can't see how that would be an improvement...


Screw the movie stars, screw the wealthy, screw LA, screw Pepperdine, screw the University of California at Santa Cruz et cetera.  All of these so-called "improvements" ruined the beautiful California coastline. Same goes for Carmel, once an artist colony now an overrun tourist trap. UGH. I cannot and will not be open minded about it. Soon I will be outta here and won't look back. I have very fond memories of California before the onslaught but that's all in the past. Thank god for the Big Sur Land Trust!

Frankly, I'm no longer so proud of my deep history in the state as they contributed to taking the land from the natives and raping the land for profit. I suppose that's just human nature . . .

Enjoy what's left. You can have it.


----------



## JonDouglas

chic said:


> I agree though it's not popular here. This whole thing strikes me as a well constructed ploy for power and keeping it through instilling fear and conformity until people are paralyzed.


I don't know that I'd go that far but must admit it can look that way, given all the inconsistencies in the whole scheme of things.  Some will write that off as dealing with something totally new, but that is a lie.  Covid-19 is just another cold/influenza variant, which is exactly what Fauci originally said it was before something or somebody caused him to change his tune.


----------



## Nathan

StarSong said:


> California has plenty of residents to spare.  Anyone who dislikes the politics is more than welcome to leave - and if they want to take a few friends with them, that's ok, too.
> 
> It won't hurt the feelings of those of us who love California - trust me.


Exactly, there are more suitable states to move to that are more the feudal mecca some people seek.
As for the "so many people leaving california" statistics, of course what is omitted is how many people are moving TO California.    The real estate industry(which is huge in Calif) knows what the trends really are.


----------



## StarSong

SetWave said:


> Screw the movie stars, screw the wealthy, screw LA, screw Pepperdine, screw the University of California at Santa Cruz et cetera.  All of these so-called "improvements" ruined the beautiful California coastline. Same goes for Carmel, once an artist colony now an overrun tourist trap. UGH. I cannot and will not be open minded about it. Soon I will be outta here and won't look back. I have very fond memories of California before the onslaught but that's all in the past. Thank god for the Big Sur Land Trust!
> 
> Frankly, I'm no longer so proud of my deep history in the state as they contributed to taking the land from the natives and raping the land for profit. I suppose that's just human nature . . .
> 
> Enjoy what's left. You can have it.


Don't hold back SetWave, tell us how you really feel.


----------



## HazyDavey

Murrmurr said:


> I would recommend northern California. Far north, up in the hills. Just be careful with matches.


Yup, good advise. Especially about the matches ..


----------



## Murrmurr

SetWave said:


> Malibu WAS a pristine part of the southern California coastline. Then came the snotty university and it's self-important residents. So, good-bye precious and pristine.  Dragon? Would you prefer . . . Smith or Jones???


I remember droves of Hippies (mainly immigrating from San Fransisco) started basically squatting on LA beaches in the late 60s, and them and the surfers gave each other a really hard time clear into the mid-70s. Sometimes fights broke out and people got arrested. One of the main complaints were that the Hippies were leaving trash strewn all over the beaches, and another was that Hippies and Surfers couldn't tolerate each others music.


----------



## Murrmurr

Nathan said:


> Exactly, there are more suitable states to move to that are more the feudal mecca some people seek.
> As for the "so many people leaving california" statistics, of course what is omitted is how many people are moving TO California.    The real estate industry(which is huge in Calif) knows what the trends really are.


I expect an influx due to the UBI program.

https://laist.com/news/politics/1-0...-guaranteed-basic-income-pilot-in-los-angeles


----------



## Devi

Nathan said:


> Exactly, there are more suitable states to move to that are more the feudal mecca some people seek.


Feudal mecca? Not sure what you mean. Could you explain?


----------



## Nathan

Devi said:


> Feudal mecca? Not sure what you mean. Could you explain?


Simply put:    Some people snivel about the higher taxes in Calif. but don't mind availing themselves of the infrastructure and services higher taxes provide.  Some don't like the political climate that supports a higher standard, so I say them those: go ahead a leave, I'm quite sure some state with 3rd world standards will be awaiting your arrival.


----------



## Devi

Nathan said:


> Simply put:    Some people snivel about the higher taxes in Calif. but don't mind availing themselves of the infrastructure and services higher taxes provide.  Some don't like the political climate that supports a higher standard, so I say them those: go ahead a leave, I'm quite sure some state with 3rd world standards will be awaiting your arrival.


Ah, okay. Thanks for explaining.


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> I don't know that I'd go that far but must admit it can look that way, given all the inconsistencies in the whole scheme of things.  Some will write that off as dealing with something totally new, but that is a lie.  Covid-19 is just another cold/influenza variant, which is exactly what Fauci originally said it was before something or somebody caused him to change his tune.





JonDouglas said:


> I don't know that I'd go that far but must admit it can look that way, given all the o inconsistencies in the whole scheme of things.  Some will write that off as dealing with something totally new, but that is a lie.  Covid-19 is just another cold/influenza variant, which is exactly what Fauci originally said it was before something or somebody caused him to change his tune.





JonDouglas said:


> I don't know that I'd go that far but must admit it can look that way, given all the inconsistencies in the whole scheme of things.  Some will write that off as dealing with something totally new, but that is a lie.  Covid-19 is just another cold/influenza variant, which is exactly what Fauci originally said it was before something or somebody caused him to change his tune.


Who and/or what caused his change is running this whole "show" and that causes me extreme concern because it's based upon less than complete truth at a time when we need complete truth.


----------



## JonDouglas

chic said:


> Who and/or what caused his change is running this whole "show" and that causes me extreme concern because it's based upon less than complete truth at a time when we need complete truth.


I could suggest a number of hypotheses that might answer that question but they're unproven and would get into politics, which this site fortunately prohibits.  I can say that federal government bureaucracies are quite political and carefully craft their messaging to their agenda.  As you might guess, messaging to CYA is not unheard of.


----------



## JonDouglas

Saw in one of the news aggregators that lockdown and masking was taking another media hit.

_States including Texas and Florida, which have completely reopened, are reporting fewer coronavirus cases than Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York, which have COVID-19 restrictions and mask mandates in place, according CDC data. _ More at ource: Daily Mail.​​Then, I remembered this article, saying "_Masks Are A Ticking Time Bomb_", which may be a data point worthy of some consideration.

You have to wonder if a lot of this could have been prevented much sooner if people had just ignored  the panic and hysteria and gone about their normal lives, only quarantining the sick.


----------



## Warrigal

JonDouglas said:


> You know this how?


By looking towards Australia and New Zealand???


----------



## Dana

JonDouglas said:


> As you know, one of the greatest tools available to politicians to control people is fear.



_Well... they're controlling you all right. I have not read so much nonsense in a long time.

Ooops! and did you know there are more carcinogens emitted from your motorbike than those masks you are afraid of? Tut tut!_


----------



## garyt1957

JonDouglas said:


> Without looking into how they are classified, you wouldn't get a very good idea.  For example, if someone dies in an auto crash but had tested positive for covid or antibodies, it's counted most places as a covid death.  Also problematic is that the CDC has never been very good at counting so it has given great license for MEs, hospitals and physicians to cast a wide net.   If that doesn't satisfy you, how about written statements from the chief investigator for the Fulton County's Medical Examiner's office, Dennis McGowan.  He writes"
> 
> _Over the 30+ years that I spent managing aspects of death investigation, I was always determined to uncover every piece of information that would lead to the filing of an accurate death certificate.  That brings me to the big lie.  Death certificates are pretty uniform in their structure, and they call for strict accuracy in listing the relevant details.  There are five critical lines on a death certificate, each having its own contribution to the final conclusion._​​_The first (top) line is "Immediate Cause of Death."  This is where the actual terminal event is recorded.  This line is followed by three more, all labeled "Due To," where contributors to the immediate cause, in declining order, are listed.  An example of this structure might be Immediate Cause listed as Cerebral Hemorrhage, and the first Due To line might be Gunshot Wound.  Very direct.  In the event that there are other contributors in the cascade of Due To notations, they would follow, in descending order.  Finally, there is a line called "Other Significant Conditions," which serves as a catch-all for relevant, non-fatal items.  In the example above, this line might read Severe Depression to explain why there was a gunshot wound to the head._​​_You can imagine how many death certificates I've seen in my career, but you can't imagine the number of death certificates that are being fraudulently tallied in this current pandemic.  Someone in some bureaucrat's office decided that if COVID appears anywhere on a death certificate, it is counted as a COVID death, even if it isn't.  If COVID is on the Immediate Cause line, it is clearly a COVID death.  If it is on the first Due To line, it might be a COVID death in a person with a significant comorbidity.  If it is on the second or third Due To line, it may or may not have a role in the death, but if it appears in the Other Significant Conditions line, it is not a COVID death, yet it is being counted as one.  An example is the fellow who crashed his motorcycle and tested positive for COVID.  This is fraud masquerading as science._​​_How many actual COVID deaths have there been?  Who knows?  Last year, when the publicly advertised number hit 200,000, there was speculation that the actual number could be as low as 10 or 12 thousand.  Today, just based on statistical probability, it is certainly under the 500,000 reported in the media, and maybe a lot less.  Two publicly reported examples of this fraud are the fellow in Florida who died in a motorcycle crash but had been COVID-positive earlier and was certified as a COVID death, and then the two gunshot deaths in Colorado that were called COVID deaths because the decedents had been positive weeks before.  One study that has been released that has scientific integrity was from Minnesota, where the COVID positive rate was determined to be overstated by 40%._​​Whether you believe this or not is your issue, not mine.


I'd say taking excess deaths in 2020 over the last few years should work fine. Doing that, I believe there were some 377,000 extra deaths in 2020.  The CDC reports more than 2.9 million deaths in the U.S. in 2020; there were at least 377,000 more deaths in 2020 compared to previous years - Health Feedback


----------



## JonDouglas

Dana said:


> _Well... they're controlling you all right. I have not read so much nonsense in a long time.
> 
> Ooops! and did you know there are more carcinogens emitted from your motorbike than those masks you are afraid of? Tut tut!_


I'm afraid of masks?  Who knew?  Personally, I've always been able to distinguish between dislike and fear and suggest others ought to learn the difference..   Finally, worrying about particulate matter from my 56 mpg vehicle hasn't been high on my list but if you're into such thoughts, please factor burn rate over distance and time into whatever particulate theory you're throwing around these days.


----------



## JonDouglas

garyt1957 said:


> I'd say taking excess deaths in 2020 over the last few years should work fine. Doing that, I believe there were some 377,000 extra deaths in 2020.  The CDC reports more than 2.9 million deaths in the U.S. in 2020; there were at least 377,000 more deaths in 2020 compared to previous years - Health Feedback


We know how the CDC reports things.  - not all that well.


----------



## garyt1957

JonDouglas said:


> We know how the CDC reports things.  - not all that well.


Well, if you're going that route, that the CDC is lying, then there's no reason discussing anything covid, because every conspiracy theory becomes possible if you believe this is some black ops con job. I have my own suspicions about the vaccine especially but I don't see some giant conspiracy out there .


----------



## JonDouglas

garyt1957 said:


> Well, if you're going that route, that the CDC is lying, then there's no reason discussing anything covid, because every conspiracy theory becomes possible if you believe this is some black ops con job. I have my own suspicions about the vaccine especially but I don't see some giant conspiracy out there .


That's not what I said.  Suggest you stop your petty, personal attacks.


----------



## garyt1957

JonDouglas said:


> That's not what I said.  Suggest you stop your petty attacks.


What are you talking about? How did I attack you in any way? I tend to agree with most of your posts. So you're saying the CDC can't even count the number of people who die each year? You really believe they're that incompetent? Remember this has nothing to do with cause of death, it's strictly the total number of deaths from year to year.


----------



## Dana

JonDouglas said:


> I'm afraid of masks?  Who knew?  Personally, I've always been able to distinguish between dislike and fear and suggest others ought to learn the difference..   Finally, worrying about particulate matter from my 56 mpg vehicle hasn't been high on my list but if you're into such thoughts, please factor burn rate over distance and time into whatever particulate theory you're throwing around these days.


.
_Motorbike driving could be extremely dangerous and now bikers have one more reason to be afraid of: the risk of developing cancer.

Randall Dale Chipkar who previously warned bikers about this risk had written a book which he named "Motorcycle Cancer?" to show the dangers of motorbike seats' low frequency electromagnetic field (ELF EMF) radiation.

The author claims he found 500 milliGauss of ELF EMF radiation above motorcycle seats and doctors say anyone who is exposed to 3 to 5 milliGauss of ELF EMF risks to develop cancer.

"I was shocked to discover this radiation risk for motorcyclists. Initially proof of danger was a major challenge, however, today both my book and website provide evidence and facts that cannot be ignored. It's not just about cancer. The prostate, colon and neighboring organs are of concern along with radiation readings that reach the abdomen, heart and breast area," Chipkar confesses._

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/motorcycle-riders-risk-to-die-of-cancer-4665.html


----------



## digifoss

Any point they disagree with is a conspiracy theory


----------



## JonDouglas

Dana said:


> .
> _Motorbike driving could be extremely dangerous and now bikers have one more reason to be afraid of: the risk of developing cancer.
> 
> Randall Dale Chipkar who previously warned bikers about this risk had written a book which he named "Motorcycle Cancer?" to show the dangers of motorbike seats' low frequency electromagnetic field (ELF EMF) radiation.
> 
> The author claims he found 500 milliGauss of ELF EMF radiation above motorcycle seats and doctors say anyone who is exposed to 3 to 5 milliGauss of ELF EMF risks to develop cancer.
> 
> "I was shocked to discover this radiation risk for motorcyclists. Initially proof of danger was a major challenge, however, today both my book and website provide evidence and facts that cannot be ignored. It's not just about cancer. The prostate, colon and neighboring organs are of concern along with radiation readings that reach the abdomen, heart and breast area," Chipkar confesses._
> 
> https://www.autoevolution.com/news/motorcycle-riders-risk-to-die-of-cancer-4665.html


Give it rest.   I've been riding motorcycles for over 65 years with no accidents or illnesses and I don't give a shit about EMF radiation unless it comes from some unnatural nuclear source, alpha, beta or gamma.  Maybe Chipkar can convince BMW or Harley to add a dosimeter into the seat of their motorcycles.


----------



## Dana

JonDouglas said:


> Give it rest.   I've been riding motorcycles for over 65 years with no accidents or illnesses and I don't give a shit about EMF radiation unless it comes from some unnatural nuclear source, alpha, beta or gamma.  Maybe Chipkar can convince BMW or Harley to add a dosimeter into the seat of their motorcycles.



Ah well... I don't ride a motor cycle, but I would rather risk wearing a mask and having a covid vaccine. Sweet dreams


----------



## digifoss

Dana said:


> Ah well... I don't ride a motor cycle, but I would rather risk wearing a mask and having a covid vaccine. Sweet dreams


----------



## JonDouglas

Dana said:


> Ah well... I don't ride a motor cycle, but I would rather risk wearing a mask and having a covid vaccine. Sweet dreams


If you don't ride, why are you carrying on about it?  As for masks and vaccines, I really don't need the former and probably didn't need the latter but got the J&J anyway.


----------



## Chris21E

Wondering when Summer heat at the highest who will keep the mask thing going...I can not add people are chopping at the bits to just get out...I noticed the traffic has really pick up, more cars on the road now,


----------



## digifoss

I took my grandkids to the park yesterday.  There were several families there cooking on the grills and quite a few kids playing on the playground.  I didn't see a single mask the whole afternoon.  We had a great time and It was a very enjoyable afternoon for everyone there.


----------



## Furryanimal

Here in Britain a scientist at Oxford University say we are no longer in a pandemic given the success of vaccination and very low rates of infection.
England will be living normally in two months and the hope is Wales will follow after our election in two weeks.
In the meantime we are told that Wales will be rampant with Covid by Christmas and we must expect more lockdowns and restrictions because’we are following the science’.
I think theatres and concert venues are assuming we will be following England where I will be going in late June onwards to watch my cricket team at away games because I can’t go to sport in Wales.


----------



## chic

JonDouglas said:


> Saw in one of the news aggregators that lockdown and masking was taking another media hit.
> 
> _States including Texas and Florida, which have completely reopened, are reporting fewer coronavirus cases than Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York, which have COVID-19 restrictions and mask mandates in place, according CDC data. _ More at ource: Daily Mail.​​Then, I remembered this article, saying "_Masks Are A Ticking Time Bomb_", which may be a data point worthy of some consideration.
> 
> You have to wonder if a lot of this could have been prevented much sooner if people had just ignored  the panic and hysteria and gone about their normal lives, only quarantining the sick.


I agree with the epidemiologists who  have been saying this for a year and more. Protect the vulnerable. Let the rest of us live as normal. Were it not for enforced mask wearing, social distancing and normal activities being forbidden in the state where I live, I would not even have known there was a pandemic because I stopped watching the news a year ago.


----------



## chic

digifoss said:


> Any point they disagree with is a conspiracy theory


It's a shame too because 13 months ago, I felt like they do.

But how can you call what's happening a conspiracy theory when it's happening right before your own eyes? I can't deny what is happening that everyone thought was a conspiracy theory last year, like tracing people's movements and vaccine passports - no buying or selling without one, no admittance, no life, no jab - no job. This is becoming real and people must know this yet no one can admit they may have been played about the reality of covid 19. They won't even consider it.


----------



## digifoss

chic said:


> It's a shame too because 13 months ago, I felt like they do.
> 
> But how can you call what's happening a conspiracy theory when it's happening right before your own eyes? I can't deny what is happening that everyone thought was a conspiracy theory last year, like tracing people's movements and vaccine passports - no buying or selling without one, no admittance, no life, no jab - no job. This is becoming real and people must know this yet no one can admit they may have been played about the reality of covid 19. They won't even consider it.



There is a big push to use the Wuhan virus as a means to gain more and more control over people through fear, calling any information that doesn't support the narrative a conspiracy theory is one of the methods frequently used to achieve that and it has been successful to a point.  There is also a lot of push-back against that happening as well, more now than during this entire episode.  There are signs that fear-mongering is in retreat, or not nearly as successful as it was last year if not retreating.  Eyes are opening.  That doesn't mean that the Wuhan virus is fake, it is very real,  or that people don't need to be cautions and protect the elderly and infirm including ourselves, we do, and that may include getting vaccinated for some of us if we feel it's necessary, among other things like eating healthy, getting some sun and exercise, and taking immune system boosting supplements.


----------



## Sunny

Digifoss, as you may or may not be aware, the name of the virus is Coronavirus.  The disease is called Covid-19.

"Wuhan virus" is political, and has only ever been used for political purposes, the same as "China virus." It's time to give that expression a rest. It creates xenophobia, and pits people against each other, including within this country. Why not drop the politics and call the disease by its correct name?


----------



## digifoss

Sunny said:


> Digifoss, as you may or may not be aware, the name of the virus is Coronavirus.  The disease is called Covid-19.
> 
> "Wuhan virus" is political, and has only ever been used for political purposes, the same as "China virus." It's time to give that expression a rest. It creates xenophobia, and pits people against each other, including within this country. Why not drop the politics and call the disease by its correct name?


semantics


----------



## SetWave

Chris21E said:


> Wondering when Summer heat at the highest who will keep the mask thing going...I can not add people are chopping at the bits to just get out...I noticed the traffic has really pick up, more cars on the road now,


Yeah, I really enjoyed the empty roads when we first locked down. Not only has traffic increase, people are driving like maniacs.


----------



## SetWave

Sunny said:


> Digifoss, as you may or may not be aware, the name of the virus is Coronavirus.  The disease is called Covid-19.
> 
> "Wuhan virus" is political, and has only ever been used for political purposes, the same as "China virus." It's time to give that expression a rest. It creates xenophobia, and pits people against each other, including within this country. Why not drop the politics and call the disease by its correct name?


For me, personally, it has been and will continue to be The Goddamned Virus.


----------



## Sunny

Setwave, I can go along with that!


----------



## Chris21E

SetWave said:


> Yeah, I really enjoyed the empty roads when we first locked down. Not only has traffic increase, people are driving like maniacs.



That is so true, just to get around town I will go the back roads and avoid the freeways


----------



## SetWave

Chris21E said:


> That is so true, just to get around town I will go the back roads and avoid the freeways


I've driven the back roads since my teenage years and traffic on them sure has changed. As for the freeway, Hwy 1 became a literal parking lot before the goddamnend virus hit. Slowly but surely it's returning to the creep and beep.


----------



## JonDouglas

Sunny said:


> Digifoss, as you may or may not be aware, the name of the virus is Coronavirus.  The disease is called Covid-19.
> 
> "Wuhan virus" is political, and has only ever been used for political purposes, the same as "China virus." It's time to give that expression a rest. It creates xenophobia, and pits people against each other, including within this country. Why not drop the politics and call the disease by its correct name?


I think people call it the Wuhan Virus because its origins were traced to a specific are in Wuhan China.  I remember the Hong Kong flu back in 1968.  Back then people had better things to do than get overly, politically sensitive about a name.  Fortunately, we're still free to call it anything we want.


----------



## JonDouglas

*On A Related Note, Fauci Is Flipping Again*.  From an aggregator newswire.

_For many months now, Dr. Anthony Fauci has advocated that people remain masked outdoors to help prevent the spread of COVID-19. “When you are indoors, make sure you have a mask. When you’re outdoors, keep the mask on,” he said back in August, though he acknowledged that being outdoors was significantly safer than being indoors._​​_Now, Fauci is saying that he believes the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) will provide updated guidance on wearing face masks outdoors, and says it’s “common sense” to reconsider the guidance._​​_Dr. Fauci’s credibility has taken some severe hits, particularly in recent weeks. When Texas Governor Greg Abbott axed the state’s mask mandate and other COVID-related restrictions on businesses and people, Dr. Anthony Fauci called it “risky” and “potentially dangerous.” But no surge happened. Earlier this month Fauci struggled to explain how Texas defied his own predictions during an appearance on MSNBC, arguing at the time that there might be a “lag.” Three weeks later, there’s still no surge in cases in Texas._​​If you've lived long enough and been around the block a few times, such bureaucratic and political CYA behavior is not unfamiliar.  You might think his political masters are getting the message and telling Fauci to "cool it".


----------



## Chris21E

SetWave said:


> I've driven the back roads since my teenage years and traffic on them sure has changed. As for the freeway, Hwy 1 became a literal parking lot before the goddamnend virus hit. Slowly but surely it's returning to the creep and beep.



I noticed that, in fact on road 580 in Pleasanton CA, I can look to the left it is back to Livermore so just going the none freeway roads and now those roads are packed


----------



## digifoss

And there's the West Nile Virus.  I've never heard of anyone from Uganda being offended over calling it that.  In that case,  it seems today that there are those willing and eager to be offended for them.


----------



## JonDouglas

digifoss said:


> And there's the West Nile Virus.  I've never heard of anyone from Uganda getting their feelings hurt over calling it that.


Back then, I don't think we had a preponderance of people with a felt need to signal how politically correct and virtuous they were.


----------



## Chris21E

JonDouglas said:


> *On A Related Note, Fauci Is Flipping Again*.  From an aggregator newswire.
> 
> _For many months now, Dr. Anthony Fauci has advocated that people remain masked outdoors to help prevent the spread of COVID-19. “When you are indoors, make sure you have a mask. When you’re outdoors, keep the mask on,” he said back in August, though he acknowledged that being outdoors was significantly safer than being indoors._​​_Now, Fauci is saying that he believes the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) will provide updated guidance on wearing face masks outdoors, and says it’s “common sense” to reconsider the guidance._​​
> 
> _Dr. Fauci’s credibility has taken some severe hits, particularly in recent weeks. When Texas Governor Greg Abbott axed the state’s mask mandate and other COVID-related restrictions on businesses and people, Dr. Anthony Fauci called it “risky” and “potentially dangerous.” But no surge happened. Earlier this month Fauci struggled to explain how Texas defied his own predictions during an appearance on MSNBC, arguing at the time that there might be a “lag.” Three weeks later, there’s still no surge in cases in Texas._​​If you've lived long enough and been around the block a few times, such bureaucratic and political CYA behavior is not unfamiliar.





JonDouglas said:


> I think people call it the Wuhan Virus because its origins were traced to a specific are in Wuhan China.  I remember the Hong Kong flu back in 1968.  Back then people had better things to do than get overly, politically sensitive about a name.  Fortunately, we're still free to call it anything we want.



Mute point from where.  It here and just trying to avoid it


----------



## digifoss

JonDouglas said:


> Back then, I don't think we had a preponderance of people with a felt need to signal how politically correct and virtuous the


Me either, Ill continue to refer to it which ever way suits me...


Chris21E said:


> Mute point .......


Agreed


----------



## JonDouglas

Chris21E said:


> Mute point from where.  It here and just trying to avoid it


Perhaps you could help me understand what you're referring to.  I do enjoy know what others think.


----------



## Chris21E

JonDouglas said:


> Perhaps you could help me understand what you're referring to.  I do enjoy know what others think.



About the virus name...well pass naming that issue...


----------



## digifoss

digifoss said:


> I took my grandkids to the park yesterday.  There were several families there cooking on the grills and quite a few kids playing on the playground.  I didn't see a single mask the whole afternoon.  We had a great time and It was a very enjoyable afternoon for everyone there.



My two rascals in the blue shirts...


----------



## Chris21E

digifoss said:


> My two rascals in the blue shirts...
> 
> View attachment 161906



Nice... Where is this taking place or State?


----------

