# A Question for Anti-Vaxxers



## Mike (Dec 21, 2021)

I know that there are a few here, I don't mind what you do,
but I don't want this to turn into an argument, I would just
like answers to the following.

Keeping in mind that 61.6% in the US are vaccinated, whether
that figure is of the total population or just those available I
don't know.

Anyway that is a big number who believe that the vaccine is
a good thing, yet you are fighting against them, finding the
smallest slip and shouting about it, whether it is right, or wrong,
isn't taken into account.

Why the demonstrations against a life saving attempt, who are
you trying to convince that you are correct in your attitude,
yourselves?

Why demonstrate against the majority, who are still alive after
having several vaccinations, can you not see the error of your
thinking?

I know that some cannot, for medical reasons, have the vaccine,
but why do vegans  shun it, there is nothing, "animal", in it, I am
told, also those who are against it for religious reasons, are also
misinformed.

So, I class you all here as friends, the "have had it" and the "will not
have it for any reason", I hope that you never come within a mile of
catching Covid, but just to make sure that you still think that you are
doing the right thing, stand in front of a mirror and ask yourselves
the same question, "why am I not taking the vaccine"?

Remember catching Covid in this life could mean 20 or more years
early in your next life.

I have had it 3 times and I am 80 years old.

Stay safe.

Stay warm.

Mike.


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## Tommy (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm fully vaccinated and "boosted", but it's a decision I made for myself based on my own risk analysis.  "Because everybody else is doing it" is a very poor basis for making almost any decision.

In the US, our commercial and public media sources are hopelessly biased, and at this time there's great (and justifiable) mistrust of government.  Without straying into politics, I'll just say that I think that, along with social media "churning", has a lot to do with people's responses to vaccination.


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## CarolfromTX (Dec 21, 2021)

I’m fully vaccinated. Three shots.  What people object to is the mandates. Everyone should be free to make their own decision about their healthcare. Because once you loose that freedom, you’ve pretty much lost them all.


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## Sassycakes (Dec 21, 2021)

My husband and I are both fully vaccinated. To me, I think it was better to be safe than sorry. My nephew that lives in Georgia got the covid was in the hospital for many months, had a double lung transplant and back surgery. Sadly he got it at the beginning of the epidemic and hadn't had a chance to get the vaccine.


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## Lawrence00 (Dec 21, 2021)

Millions have natural immunity.
It is this superior protection that has been used to save the lives of many that covid hit the hardest.


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## rgp (Dec 21, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> I’m fully vaccinated. Three shots.  What people object to is the mandates. Everyone should be free to make their own decision about their healthcare. Because once you loose that freedom, you’ve pretty much lost them all.




 I agree strongly here !


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## JaniceM (Dec 21, 2021)

Seems to me the problem is fewer people these days have any concern for how their 'choices' affect other people.  
As it's become known that the vaccinations do not guarantee a person cannot contract covid, and masks do not protect the wearer, those who refuse to get vaccinated and refuse to wear masks put everyone around them in harm's way.  It's much more than a healthcare 'decision' that only affects the person making the decision.


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## Geezerette (Dec 21, 2021)

I am fully vaxxed, booster on 12/14.  I believe that Numerous different vaccines and annuals like the flu shot have added immeasurably to the quality  and LENGTH of my life. 

The same people who reject vaccine mandates happily accept many others: carrying insurance, various license regulations, many others. I feel they are ignorant attention seekers trying to conceal their lack of understanding of science, and I resent them because they are putting others at risk, delay overall the return to less restrictive conditions, and still expect to be as well cared for as others who DID take precautions.


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## hollydolly (Dec 21, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> I am fully vaxxed, booster on 12/14.  I believe that Numerous different vaccines and annuals like the flu shot have added immeasurably to the quality  and LENGTH of my life.
> 
> The same people who reject vaccine mandates happily accept many others: carrying insurance, various license regulations, many others.* I feel they are ignorant attention seekers trying to conceal their lack of understanding of science*,


My Daughter is far from an ignorant attention seeker...she feels that as an Intelligent 40 something ,  very fit and healthy young woman who has always taken great care care of her own health by exercising, and eating well, never smoking  or taking drugs,  and keeping slim , she has enough natural  immunity to fight off any viral disease which may come for her, and its not necessary in her opinion to inject something into her body which has no history of after effects.....she doesn't shout it from the rooftops..In fact I believe I'm the only one aside from one of her closest friends who knows she has chosen not to be vaccinated. She adheres to the rules of the mandates, and wears masks etc when in public..
That's her decision .I'm fully vaccinated, .. and I have to accept the  decision she's made for her own body , and pray that she's right.... ..


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## Knight (Dec 21, 2021)

We are fully vaccinated with the booster. A choice & understanding that the vaccine isn't 100% effective but is a deterrent. So far the information available is those that have been vaccinated some still contract the virus. But the duration is far less & the impact is less severe. 

I don't see a need to promote use of the vaccine or opposing being vaccinated. I base that on information world wide about the devastating effect the virus & the variants.  If a person knows the potential it's their choice.


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## Chris P Bacon (Dec 21, 2021)

Lawrence00 said:


> Millions have natural immunity.
> It is this superior protection that has been used to save the lives of many that covid hit the hardest.


The American Red Cross recommends following the advice of *CDC.org* and or *Ready.gov* both of whom advise that vaccination is a wise idea. And although millions of people do have natural immunity, there are _*billions*_ of people worldwide and millions of those billions *do not have* natural immunity.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

You mislabel those who don't want the vaccine as "Antivaxxers" to make them seem weird.  No, my friend; they are not antivaxxers; they've had other vaccines.  They just don't trust this one & don't trust the motives for pushing it.  And don't trust the BS statistics, either.  It's called "Thinking."

_"A big number who believe that the vaccine is a good thing."_
The best illustration of _Sheep Mentality_ I've seen to date.  _Many people do something, so I should do it, too.

"you are fighting against them."_
You are confused.  You need to acknowledge who _starts _a fight. People who don't want the vaccine aren't the ones fighting. People who try to control others are the ones doing the fighting. And the insulting - which (of course) leads to retaliation. I'm not a fighter - unless someone starts a fight with me.  Anyone who tries to force a vaccine, drug, or medical procedure on me is starting a fight & knows what they can kiss.

_"Why the demonstrations against a life saving attempt."_
Since you believe the vaccines are life saving, you are free to get them; just as others are free not to get them.  Not everyone believes the vaccines are life saving.  Their decision doesn't affect you, so it's not your concern.  You are likely seeking validation for your decision & your confidence is shaken by others who don't make the same decision you make.

How long as Covid been here?  Two years?  I don't have it or I've already had it & am immune.  I see no reason to risk my health with a vaccine I consider unnecessary.  As I said, that's MY decision; it should have no effect on yours.  I'm not asking you or anyone else not to get vaccinated.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> I am fully vaxxed, booster on 12/14.  I believe that Numerous different vaccines and annuals like the flu shot have added immeasurably to the quality  and LENGTH of my life.
> 
> The same people who reject vaccine mandates happily accept many others: carrying insurance, various license regulations, many others. I feel they are ignorant attention seekers trying to conceal their lack of understanding of science, and I resent them because they are putting others at risk, delay overall the return to less restrictive conditions, and still expect to be as well cared for as others who DID take precautions.


^^^^ Shining example of a programmed robot whose confidence is shaken by others who don't do as they do.


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## Knight (Dec 21, 2021)

So it comes down to two sheep herds.
A vaccinated herd & an unvaccinated herd.


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## Mike (Dec 21, 2021)

I didn't make up the label "Anti-Vaxxers", that was created
elsewhere and is used all over the media.

Mike.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike said:


> I didn't make up the label "Anti-Vaxxers", that was created
> elsewhere and is used all over the media.
> 
> Mike.


It doesn't matter who made up the label "Anti-Vaxxers."
If you use the label, ("Questions For Anti-Vaxxers") you're labeling others with it & supporting it.


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## CarolfromTX (Dec 21, 2021)

Geezerette is missing the point. It’s not about mandates for insurance or licenses. It’s about what you can and cannot do with your healthcare. It’s being forced to take a vaccine you don’t want. It’s not about science. It’s about freedom of choice.


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## fmdog44 (Dec 21, 2021)

Omicron is spreading at a rate of 2 days versus eleven days for the Delta. I never thought anything could spread that fast.


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## Jeni (Dec 21, 2021)

I agree labeling people or worse yet making overly broad assumptions about people............ shows someone overly upset about other peoples business.
Regardless of a persons choice ..........once name calling starts........*discussion *is over.

 Even if 62%......... i see these percentages rise and fall depending on angle of story coupled with those who have natural immunity ( go ahead and warn people that wears off... much like the shots) we should be in a good % .........but instead of saying ok......... 
it seems as if some want everyone FORCED into the same decision they made ..... why ? 

People would be thrilled at a 62% for flu shots not trying to identify every last person to brow beat into compliance.  
Not trying to force private business to be enforcers and trying to FIRE or limit a persons ability to support themselves....... Does this seem rational?  

I know many who took the shot as a patriotic thing or one for the team ...rah rah.......... but will NOT take continual boosters cause it did not work as well as sold.  I wonder what those folks will be labeled ? ......... a smaller threat but still not on board need to be reprogrammed


Do not say no vaccine is perfect...... blah blah   
I KNOW but other vaccines were not PUSHED  by companies will pay you $$$$ ... some states gave people  free weed if they got the shot...... this is not NORMAL reaction to entice people it is OVER the top.


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## palides2021 (Dec 21, 2021)

I've been avoiding vaccine threads on this site because arguments have occurred. So please don't think I'm an anti-vaxxer, but like others here I also feel it's my choice and I have been worried about the safety of these vaccines as our family tends to have clotting issues. A cousin of mine was in ICU after she got vaccinated as they found a blood clot in her brain. I don't go around spreading it. I've been extremely careful due to health issues and always have used the mask from day 1.

I wanted to share a scientific article I read today about natural immunity from Covid. There are many more articles on this topic if you do a google scholar search:

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101


This article talks about natural immunity if one has had Covid and how long this immunity lasts. I had Covid while unvaccinated, and so did my family members. We all survived. Only one was hospitalized (my mom). According to this article, I should have even better immunity than the vaccinated people. But this never gets discussed in the media. It's big taboo not to mention all these people that have become naturally immune to COVID. Why are these people not discussed? Political agendas and mandates should not be a part of managing our health. We are ultimately responsible for our bodies.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am (PM), but please do not attack me or others because of the choices we have made.


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## Skyking (Dec 21, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Geezerette is missing the point. It’s not about mandates for insurance or licenses. It’s about what you can and cannot do with your healthcare. It’s being forced to take a vaccine you don’t want. It’s not about science. It’s about freedom of choice.


So when intensive care fills up with the 98% unvaccinated for 2 weeks,  keeping heart patients and cancer patients waiting, only to be intubated to the tune of a million dollars,  my insurance company should pay for their right to be unreasonable, something so preventable? Or, is the government paying with money we don't have, bankrupting Medicare and Medicaid? Please tell me the unvaxed will pony up and do the right thing and pay society for their brilliant thinking. VISA or certified checks only, no personal.


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## Jeni (Dec 21, 2021)

Skyking said:


> So when intensive care fills up with the 98% unvaccinated for 2 weeks,  keeping heart patients and cancer patients waiting, only to be intubated to the tune of a million dollars,  my insurance company should pay for their right to be unreasonable, something so preventable? Or, is the government paying with money we don't have, bankrupting Medicare and Medicaid? Please tell me the unvaxed will pony up and do the right thing and pay society for their brilliant thinking. VISA or certified checks only, no personal.


so does that apply to people who do other things and take up care ?    
 Or as often happens some think it only applies to this situation ..

Examples: 
Smokers who have lung  or heart issues?  
alcoholics insert issue here ......   Obese and any number of ailments?


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## Chris P Bacon (Dec 21, 2021)

Most diseases or ailments didn’t turn into pandemics affecting every country and potentially, every person in the world.


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## Skyking (Dec 21, 2021)

Jeni said:


> so does that apply to people who do other things and take up care ?
> Or as often happens some think it only applies to this situation ..
> 
> Examples:
> ...


If there were a vaccination with 98% efficacy, and they refused it, then yes. Unfortunately we don't have them. However, for this COMMUNICABLE pandemic we aren't asking people to change their entire lifestyle, just take a free vaccination to protect themselves as well as others who can't take it.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Omicron is spreading at a rate of 2 days versus eleven days for the Delta. I never thought anything could spread that fast.


Omicron's spread is directly related to the intended profit spread.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

palides2021 said:


> I've been avoiding vaccine threads on this site because arguments have occurred. So please don't think I'm an anti-vaxxer, but like others here I also feel it's my choice and I have been worried about the safety of these vaccines as our family tends to have clotting issues. A cousin of mine was in ICU after she got vaccinated as they found a blood clot in her brain. I don't go around spreading it. I've been extremely careful due to health issues and always have used the mask from day 1.
> 
> I wanted to share a scientific article I read today about natural immunity from Covid. There are many more articles on this topic if you do a google scholar search:
> 
> ...


The "Experts" will never discuss natural immunity in a positive light; it would obviously interfere with their "Everybody should get vaccinated" & that would cut profits - from both vaccines, never-ending boosters and future drugs.  That's the reason for the exaggerated infection & mortality rates.  Without fear, they won't sell.


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## Don M. (Dec 21, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Omicron is spreading at a rate of 2 days versus eleven days for the Delta. I never thought anything could spread that fast.



The news reports are saying that the numbers infected by Omicron are doubling every 3 or 4 days.  If that is true, and this variant continues to spread at such a pace, it may be only a matter of another month, or two, before the majority of the population is exposed to this virus.  Then, we will have a pretty good picture of just how effective the vaccines are, and how the unvaccinated are being impacted.


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## dseag2 (Dec 21, 2021)

I can't answer for the anti-vaxxers, but I can answer for the vaxxers.  I've had both my Moderna shots and the booster. 

I had Covid in February 2020.  My fitness, according to my doctor, is perfect.  I work out frequently and eat healthy so I guess I have the "natural immunity" that everyone likes to mention in Covid threads.  I still developed severe congestion and a cough that took me months to get rid of.  I had about a day of fever.  My partner, who is 8 years younger and never even gets a cold, also caught it and coughed for months.  I'm not particularly worried about dying from it, but I don't want to go through the discomfort again. 

I've already seen all the answers as to anti-vax on this forum.  My cousin is anti-vax and so is her 90 year-old Evangelical mother.  This was a political decision.  Her mother was never vaccinated and continued to attend her church.  She was just diagnosed with it, so I can only wish her the best.


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## dseag2 (Dec 21, 2021)

Don M. said:


> The news reports are saying that the numbers infected by Omicron are doubling every 3 or 4 days.  If that is true, and this variant continues to spread at such a pace, it may be only a matter of another month, or two, before the majority of the population is exposed to this virus.  Then, we will have a pretty good picture of just how effective the vaccines are, and how the unvaccinated are being impacted.


And we may finally, at some point, reach herd immunity.  Fingers crossed.


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## Chris P Bacon (Dec 21, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> And we may finally, at some point, reach herd immunity.  Fingers crossed.


Even if we don’t, some will die because not everyone did what they could have. That’s their “right”, I guess but it doesn’t seem right to me. Maybe there will be a vaccine to prevent selfishness one day. Not likely but too.


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## win231 (Dec 21, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I can't answer for the anti-vaxxers, but I can answer for the vaxxers.  I've had both my Moderna shots and the booster.
> 
> I had Covid in February 2020.  My fitness, according to my doctor, is perfect.  I work out frequently and eat healthy so I guess I have the "natural immunity" that everyone likes to mention in Covid threads.  I still developed severe congestion and a cough that took me months to get rid of.  I had about a day of fever.  My partner, who is 8 years younger and never even gets a cold, also caught it and coughed for months.  I'm not particularly worried about dying from it, but I don't want to go through the discomfort again.
> 
> I've already seen all the answers as to anti-vax on this forum.  My cousin is anti-vax and so is her 90 year-old Evangelical mother.  This was a political decision.  Her mother was never vaccinated and continued to attend her church.  She was just diagnosed with it, so I can only wish her the best.


As far as I'm concerned, anyone who reaches 90 isn't going to die of anything except age - regardless of the "official" noted cause.
Life is a game where nobody gets out alive; we all gotta die of somethin'.


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## dseag2 (Dec 21, 2021)

win231 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, anyone who reaches 90 isn't going to die of anything except age - regardless of the "official" noted cause.
> Life is a game where nobody gets out alive; we all gotta die of somethin'.


True that.


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## chic (Dec 22, 2021)

I don't look at the world and see vaccinated people and unvaccinated people.

I see people.

I believe it's wrong to see it otherwise.


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## win231 (Dec 22, 2021)

Jeni said:


> I agree labeling people or worse yet making overly broad assumptions about people............ shows someone overly upset about other peoples business.
> Regardless of a persons choice ..........once name calling starts........*discussion *is over.
> 
> Even if 62%......... i see these percentages rise and fall depending on angle of story coupled with those who have natural immunity ( go ahead and warn people that wears off... much like the shots) we should be in a good % .........but instead of saying ok.........
> ...


or free tacos & tickets to NFL & NBA games.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 22, 2021)

Tommy said:


> I'm fully vaccinated and "boosted", but it's a decision I made for myself based on my own risk analysis.  "Because everybody else is doing it" is a very poor basis for making almost any decision.
> 
> In the US, our commercial and public media sources are hopelessly biased, and at this time there's great (and justifiable) mistrust of government.  Without straying into politics, I'll just say that I think that, along with social media "churning", has a lot to do with people's responses to vaccination.


Here, here Tommy!!


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## Jeni (Dec 22, 2021)

Skyking said:


> If there were a vaccination with 98% efficacy, and they refused it, then yes. Unfortunately we don't have them. However, for this COMMUNICABLE pandemic we aren't asking people to change their entire lifestyle, just take a free vaccination to protect themselves as well as others who can't take it.


Please explain how it is FREE? ..... seems like no one knows what the word means. Especially in the US.
So a lifestyle choice that COSTS us all in healthcare gets a pass ?   
even lifestyle choice GREATLY effects a persons ability to recover from this virus? 

Look at the insane profits by pharma on this shot and boosters and perhaps tweaking for any newly named variant .....
Oh............ that is right government spent TAXPAYER money (FREE MONEY) ...........as government does not produce or manufacture things for a profit.
So smile taxpayers will pay as long as they have a JOB to be taxed on.... so lets FIRE their ass for no shots or right amount of shots or whatever we add tomorrow  ...........and vaxxed can pay more seems to be the plan.

So all these *"freebies"..*................ Taxpayers are paying regardless of their own personal vaccine status.
 Their kids/ grandkids and future generations will be paying far after the pandemic is gone if they ever let it go away.  Never let a good crisis go......

some folks just want to fight........... not DISCUSS vaccines and or mandates etc.

There are many questions that are simply NOT being answered and the devil is always in the details......
Some got boosters ......others chose No ..........so now the GOAL changed again...... that without a booster you do not meet the requirements....how many BOOSTERS will that be? ..................... do NOT count on just one. 

Will the Mandates be enforced FOREVER or until virus is under control ?   (see above never let a good crisis go)
Where is the *goal post*...... Oh..... that is correct we KEEP moving it ..  
we still have some politicians saying  vaccinated cant get sick or pass it even if that is not TRUE.

What is the % needed for so called herd immunity?....... no one will commit to a % cause we are told there is no such thing anymore.

People are writing and Changing rules as we go then........ when things go wrong...... it is perhaps an employers fault ........not that OSHA or any other regulatory group seems to be  writing rules on an *etch a sketch.  

Example :* ever changing ideas of how private medical Vaccine information is collected or stored and whom has access.
At the beginning people said a photo of vaccine card should work now they want a hard copy .......  Vaccine data was NOT (at first ) to be filed with basic employment file but  a different database or hard copy storage for added security for privacy concerns etc. that may have changed since first idea......
Setting up this separate and *secure *system .............. and being ready for any fine/ penalty or lawsuits for a mistake in safeguarding info .............because the rules are fluid and change per Poll #s............ is of course..... is FREE for business too

So many seem  willing to drop rules/ laws etc designed to protect people because a Virus.   Will that be written into future laws/ or requirements ( IGNORE IF IN A PANDEMIC).
1  Door dash will bring you wine or spirits is every driver OVER 21 to be able to carry alcohol?  ( states vary)
 When  friend was  an 18 yr old waitress, She was not allowed to carry hard alcohol to a table just turned order into bar and the bartender transported unless server was 21. (may vary per location /state)

2   Many third party delivery services like door dash etc are exempt from having a food handlers card like every restaurant and often grocery store employee MUST have.   DiRECT Dominos drivers went through food handlers course .... uber eats/ door dash etc nope..... guess food illness knows what car they are in.
So if a food  illness occurs ( some are Fatal)   do you know where bacteria grew..... in a supply chain.... at restaurant ... or sitting in a car one of 4 other orders being delivered not being held at correct serving temp.  
Perhaps we can just say hey sorry about that we will take this rule back to being enforced after covid....

3   A lady i know just had this conversation last night.......... a cashier selling alcohol or cigarettes in my state can be personally fined up to 50K as well as their employer for selling to a minor ...
So checking ID NOW.......you cannot ask them to remove their mask cause Covid..... 
so if based on a guess..... does fines/ rules apply?    or are your hands tied?  should stores quit selling until pandemic is OVER?  you cannot see enough of face to make a positive ID
Or perhaps it is really not important to have laws  for minors anymore as websites just ask you to click to confirm you are over certain age to buy or view items.....


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## hollydolly (Dec 22, 2021)

Jeni said:


> Please explain how it is FREE? ..... seems like no one knows what the word means. Especially in the US.
> So a lifestyle choice that COSTS us all in healthcare gets a pass ?
> even lifestyle choice GREATLY effects a persons ability to recover from this virus?
> 
> ...


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## rgp (Dec 22, 2021)

hollydolly said:


>




 What do your reply icons indicate ??   I've not seen that emoji .


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## hollydolly (Dec 22, 2021)

rgp said:


> What do your reply icons indicate ??   I've not seen that emoji .


applause !!


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## Sunny (Dec 22, 2021)

Jeni said:


> so does that apply to people who do other things and take up care ?
> Or as often happens some think it only applies to this situation ..
> 
> Examples:
> ...


Jeni, look at the numbers. In spite of all the smokers, alcoholics, and obese people, how often do hospitals all over the world fill up with them, all at the same time, leaving no room for anyone else?

If that were happening, you might have a point. But I've never heard of it happening. Have you?

This is a rapidly spreading _pandemic. _Putting it in the same category as chronic, ancient problems that have always unfortunately been with us, and probably always will, is ridiculous.


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## Skyking (Dec 22, 2021)

Bottom line is, you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Do the right thing and don't be swayed by false arguments going down rabbit holes of foolishness. Your choice people, you can either live with it or maybe die because of it. Choices have consequences and 98% OF THE UNVACCINATED ARE FINDING OUT THE HARD WAY. What do you think the one dying on an incubator would tell you if they could even talk? I'm glad I didn't take the shot? Do what you want, I'll take my chances, I'm vaccinated and proud to be part of the solution.


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## win231 (Dec 22, 2021)

Skyking said:


> Bottom line is, you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Do the right thing and don't be swayed by false arguments going down rabbit holes of foolishness. Your choice people, you can either live with it or maybe die because of it. Choices have consequences and 98% OF THE UNVACCINATED ARE FINDING OUT THE HARD WAY. What do you think the one dying on an incubator would tell you if they could even talk? I'm glad I didn't take the shot? Do what you want, I'll take my chances, I'm vaccinated and proud to be part of the solution.


Nothing wrong with living in a world of your own design if it makes you feel good all over.


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## Flaneuse (Dec 22, 2021)

It's the part about protecting others that's important to me.  As an example that is personal to me:  my widowed sister, who is 85 years old, can't visit her daughter because the daughter refuses to get vaccinated and my sister is at high risk because of life-long asthma, cancer (fortunately in remission for now), and a couple of other medical conditions.  This breaks my heart.  No Christmas or Thanksgiving celebrations together, no birthday celebrations together for the grandkids or great grandkids.    I'm vaccinated and boosted not just for myself, but out of consideration for the people around me.  

Yes, people who have been vaccinated can still get it and still transmit it to others, but it is far less likely to happen if everyone is vaccinated.  And it's in the unvaccinated that the mutations generally appear because it stays in the body longer and is more virulent.  Reports indicate the Omicron variant likely developed in someone with an autoimmune condition and because the individual was not able to fight the virus as well, it stayed in his body for a long time and mutated.


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## win231 (Dec 22, 2021)

Flaneuse said:


> It's the part about protecting others that's important to me.  As an example that is personal to me:  my widowed sister, who is 85 years old, can't visit her daughter because the daughter refuses to get vaccinated and my sister is at high risk because of life-long asthma, cancer (fortunately in remission for now), and a couple of other medical conditions.  This breaks my heart.  No Christmas or Thanksgiving celebrations together, no birthday celebrations together for the grandkids or great grandkids.    I'm vaccinated and boosted not just for myself, but out of consideration for the people around me.
> 
> Yes, people who have been vaccinated can still get it and still transmit it to others, but it is far less likely to happen if everyone is vaccinated.  And it's in the unvaccinated that the mutations generally appear because it stays in the body longer and is more virulent.  Reports indicate the Omicron variant likely developed in someone with an autoimmune condition and because the individual was not able to fight the virus as well, it stayed in his body for a long time and mutated.


All theories.  Nothing certain.
That's why medicine is called a "Practice."


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## dseag2 (Dec 22, 2021)

win231 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, anyone who reaches 90 isn't going to die of anything except age - regardless of the "official" noted cause.
> Life is a game where nobody gets out alive; we all gotta die of somethin'.


I get you, but my cousin showed me a video of her sliding down a slide with her grandkids.  She has been healthy and self-sufficient so far, so who am I to say that it is her time to die?  We should all live as long as we can as long as we are in good health.


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## win231 (Dec 22, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Omicron is spreading at a rate of 2 days versus eleven days for the Delta. I never thought anything could spread that fast.


Well, you see, there's a new drug for Covid & it won't sell without sufficient fear.


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## win231 (Dec 24, 2021)

dseag2 said:


> I get you, but my cousin showed me a video of her sliding down a slide with her grandkids.  She has been healthy and self-sufficient so far, so who am I to say that it is her time to die?  We should all live as long as we can as long as we are in good health.


When someone says something like_ "We all gotta go sometime,"_ or _"We aren't designed to live forever,"_ or Benjamin Franklin's quote:
_"Do not try to live forever; you will not succeed," _it is often misinterpreted as_ "Who cares....he/she is gonna die, anyway, so why bother?"_
It's not how it was intended.  That's reading something into a statement that wasn't there.
No one would disagree that we should all live as long as we can as long as we are in good health.


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## Devi (Dec 25, 2021)

My understanding of "natural immunity" is that someone has gotten Covid, then recovered from it.


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## chic (Dec 25, 2021)

Devi said:


> My understanding of "natural immunity" is that someone has gotten Covid, then recovered from it.


 That's my understanding also.


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## Lawrence00 (Dec 25, 2021)

Devi said:


> My understanding of "natural immunity" is that someone has gotten Covid, then recovered from it.


The immune system can recognize and fight against all 4 components of covid, not only the spike protein template. It has faced the real attack and survived. There is likely even more protection than that, that current science books do not understand.


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## Alligatorob (Dec 25, 2021)

Mike said:


> just to make sure that you still think that you are
> doing the right thing, stand in front of a mirror and ask yourselves
> the same question, "why am I not taking the vaccine"?


I have spent some time and effort to understand why the people I know are not getting the vaccine.  The reasons seem to me to fall into a few categories:


Concern over long term negative impacts, a nurse I know cites the thalidomide baby thing as an example.  This is of course an unknowable, all we can be certain of are the one year or so effects since vaccination has started.  And so far with hundreds of millions there seems no significant risk, however longer term is uncertain.  I don't see any good reason to fear this, but can understand why some do.
Concern over shorter term impacts.  I think we now have overwhelming evidence that this is not a rational fear.  The only significant short term effects seem to be arm pain and mild symptoms.  My wife had both, I had neither.
Natural defiance to being told to do something.  I do understand this, I often have the same reaction to many things.  However for myself it has not kept me from getting vaccinated.
Political, for reasons I do not understand in the US Democrats seem more likely to get vaccinated than Republicans.  Maybe its related to the reason above?  Donald Trump has been vaccinated and had a booster, so have a lot of Republicans, so its not universal.  And I believe the famous anti-vaxxer Robert Kennedy Jr is a Democrat.  I don't understand why politics should have anything to do with it.
A belief that natural immunity is as good or better than what the vaccine can provide.  I can understand this, the real question however is does the vaccine increase this immunity and/or does it increase the risk of shorter term problems.  The paper @palides2021 cites above in #20 addresses this very well.  And my conclusion after reading it is we are, at this time, uncertain as to both questions.  My wife and possibly myself got Covid after the first 2 Pfizer shots, we both then got boosters afterwards.  Not saying I expect all to do the same, just our decisions.
I also know people who don't believe Covid exists, that it's just fake news or something.  Don't understand that one.

My bottom line is I have had the vaccinations and plan to continue if more booster or updates become available, and I believe others should as well.  However, I can understand at least some of the rationale for not getting vaccinated.  I don't agree, but I do understand.  And  I do not believe this is bad enough to require or use draconian measures to force people to vaccinate.  I think providing good scientific data is the best way to convince more folks.  Assuming it continues to show what it has so far anyway - that the vaccinations do save lives and reduce the risk of sever illness.


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