# I wont fight to see grandchildren



## grahamg (Nov 11, 2018)

I have two grandsons, and have seen just one of them just once, almost four years ago now.

I will never fight my own child, one daughter, through our English courts in order to get to see them, so will trust that one day she chooses to allow some contact or else accept that shall never happen (unless the lads grow up and become curious where some of their genes came from).

My reasons are that I have no faith in our English law (to start with), which now allows grandparents the right to apply through them for a contact order even where neither parent wishes it. If I had faith in it I would not allow the courts, and their court welfare officers or whoever might investigate every aspect, into my grandchildren's lives, and nor would I put my daughter through it.

I am frequently told on forums how things have changed in family law here, and all the many troubles of the past are behind us all (mostly I'm told this by members of another forum), but I've never believed it and never will. A recent example of how much things have not improved in my view is a widely publicised case here in England where a father actually "won" a contact order over his one son, but the legal fees he'd incurred ran to £200,000, and his ex.'s to £120,000. There was much hand wringing by the judge officiating, and comments such as the "courts would continue to do their best in the difficult/impossible cases presented to them, but in my view their actions do harm to all concerned too (obviously financially, but as the case rumbled on for ten years, emotional damage to everyone).

I no longer wish to hear from those telling me the system is fine as it is (albeit I know risks associated with child contact cases may make any better system impossible).

All I'm posting this thread for is that I wish to raise the issue of where all this leaves us. If children, or grandchildren have no relationship at all with one or more parent/grandparent, and this kind of treatment goes on affecting huge numbers of people, and the children themselves are not taught that treating loving parents or grandparents this way is shameful, then I believe society will suffer. Cut off from your own family, as a result of family breakdown has consequences for how I see the world, and I'd have thought everyone else. Where is the investment in creating a good future for your own grandchildren if you're not thought worth anyone's consideration (- let the world go to hell in a handcart is one thought if this is "okay")? 

This isn't the way I think, but I cannot help but conclude family breakdowns of all kinds, creating people unconnected to anyone really will have serious implications (lest friends somehow connect you to a kind of support network).


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## Keesha (Nov 11, 2018)

I don’t know enough about all the legalities but I’m so sorry you and your grandchildren are so astranged. 
Thats terrible and I hope it gets resolved.


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## C'est Moi (Nov 11, 2018)

Since none of us are privy to the "whole story", I'll just say that when courts must be involved in family matters the outcome is seldom a desirable one for any involved.   Obviously your daughter has her reasons for the situation and you'd be best served to try to mend THOSE fences instead of forcing a relationship through the courts.


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## oldman (Nov 11, 2018)

IMO, I think that it's a terrible thing when our children will deny access to the GP's of their children. They do not realize the damage that they are doing by denying their children to be able to visit the child's GP's. In my world, I believe that my wife and I have taught at least two of our GC more about life than our children have. You can teach education, but never wisdom, which comes with age. 

My two Grandsons think that I am the coolest Grandfather ever because I flew airplanes for a living. Just think of the wonderful things that you could share with your GC. It is totally unfair both to the children and the GP's. We, as senior adults, have so much to share with our GC and also the amount of wisdom that we could give them to help expand their minds is almost endless.  

If nothing else, I hope that you are writing to them and that they are allowed to read your letters.


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## Knight (Nov 11, 2018)

Quote
"If children, or grandchildren have no relationship at all with one or more parent/grandparent, and this kind of treatment goes on affecting huge numbers of people, and the children themselves are not taught that treating loving parents or grandparents this way is shameful, then I believe society will suffer."


Doubtful that this is a widespread problem for society. Since this seems to be the case with you beginning with your own situation [no explanation of your circumstances] and I really don't want to know. Maybe the best way to resolve this with your child/children is to find a way to resolve whatever is causing this without legal intervention.


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## grahamg (Nov 11, 2018)

*I still love my child so no taking her to court*



oldman said:


> IMO, I think that it's a terrible thing when our children will deny access to the GP's of their children. They do not realize the damage that they are doing by denying their children to be able to visit the child's GP's. In my world, I believe that my wife and I have taught at least two of our GC more about life than our children have. You can teach education, but never wisdom, which comes with age.
> 
> My two Grandsons think that I am the coolest Grandfather ever because I flew airplanes for a living. Just think of the wonderful things that you could share with your GC. It is totally unfair both to the children and the GP's. We, as senior adults, have so much to share with our GC and also the amount of wisdom that we could give them to help expand their minds is almost endless.
> 
> If nothing else, I hope that you are writing to them and that they are allowed to read your letters.



It is good to have one or two posts supportive of my position, and as to those who ask me to question myself in one way or another to find what may be at fault - I expected that reaction, and wont give you any response further than that (and why indeed should I consider you any more entitled to be privy to what went on in my private life, than I do those court welfare officers asking children whether they love their father)

I'm not sure what kind of granddad I'd be, and maybe it wouldn't come as naturally to me as it does to others, but I'm sure I'd try to follow my own path, which is the right/only thing to do isn't it - how can you have unique or loving relationships with anyone if you don't do that for yourself (and for them)?

Many wont agree with my "shameful" comment in the OP, but I do believe it is so. However, unless it becomes a mainstream thought, then I'd sure it'll be ignored by those in authority for a long long time to come.

(BTW grandchildren not old enough to read yet, but that is only one of the obstacles to sending them a letter from someone they either haven't met at all, or wont remember if they have).


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## Butterfly (Nov 12, 2018)

Here in my state grandparents have no rights to see their grandchildren unless the parents of the children allow it.  The courts have rules repeatedly that the parents of the child have the right to say who the child will or will not see (unless the parent has been adjudicated abusive or neglectful of the child and had their parental rights terminated by the courts.


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## gennie (Nov 12, 2018)

I would accept what is at the moment but always keep the door open and be sure they know that they have a safe place with you.


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## grahamg (Nov 12, 2018)

*I have this blessing*



gennie said:


> I would accept what is at the moment but always keep the door open and be sure they know that they have a safe place with you.




I do believe you are correct, and hope I've said the same thing myself above, as this is exactly what I'll do.

There is one great blessing and that is my child is the kind of person most people would probably like to know (I know I'm boasting there).

Having said that I'm told by people who should know that after very long absences from ones children they may have grown into a person you don't like so much (a former barrister told me this, though the lady concerned wasn't acting for me, just speaking as a friend).


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## Knight (Nov 12, 2018)

Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point.  I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2018)

*Not my case but other fathers.....*



Knight said:


> Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point.  I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.




You've said you're not interested in my case specifically, and that's helpful as I'm only willing to obliquely refer to it.

I do know of a couple of fathers who have taken a different view to your own so far as who might be to blame for lack of contact with children/grandchildren. 

The landlord of a public house in Somerton, Devon, UK told a group of father's rights protesters (myself included on the protest outside a family court judges house earlier in the day), how when he and his wife split up, his four children sided with their mother. A few years later one of the sons tried to contact him and he wouldn't let the boy, now a young man, have anything to do with him. 

A former neighbour of mine, when I lived in Wiltshire, UK, told me that if his daughter had spoken to him in the manner mine did regularly he'd have nothing to do with her.  Some fathers therefore take a different view, to either yourself or the way I chose to behave. They do choose to bear grudges, even if it might be unfair really towards their own child, who might have been a twelve years old or young teenager at the time of estrangement or separation.


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## StarSong (Nov 13, 2018)

I'm sorry for your situation, but also know that there are two sides to every story.  

I chose estrangement from my father about ten years ago for quite good reasons.  If you you asked him about it he'd claim he was an excellent father and completely undeserving of such an ungrateful child.


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2018)

*There was a recent thread on your situation*



StarSong said:


> I'm sorry for your situation, but also know that there are two sides to every story.
> 
> I chose estrangement from my father about ten years ago for quite good reasons.  If you you asked him about it he'd claim he was an excellent father and completely undeserving of such an ungrateful child.




No need to be too sorry because as I've said earlier in this thread I have some blessings to count as well as the obvious negative aspect of no contact with your one child, or any grandchildren as you grow old.

There was a recent thread on the forum giving a similar story to yours above, and I think I commented on that discussion, that you must choose to live with turning your back on a difficult parent for the rest of your life. Difficult as my mother certainly was to live with, turning my back on her was never an option for me, and I used to think she'd "haunt me from the grave", when in fact the opposite is true. I now appreciate the obstacles she faced, and how she did her best, just as she told me she was always trying to do.


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## Ronni (Nov 14, 2018)

Family dynamics are both complex and nuanced, and no matter how much time you spend trying to understand the problem of another family, you can't possibly know all the intricacies of the issues even half as well as the people directly involved in those issues.    There are typically not just two sides to a story, but multiple sides, because of the sheer number of people involved in any situation.  Depending on issue + family structure you have the children, two parents, the siblings of the parents, both sets of grandparents on either side all of whom can be immediately involved.  Add to that the issues that arise with blended families where you have the Mom and the Step Dad plus the Dad and the Step Mom, which doubles the potential level of involvement from other family and step-family members.  

Complex.  Complicated.  Intricate.  With so many sides to every single story, every incident, every slight, bump, rub, disagreement, argument, that it can so easily get out of hand and the original issue become lost, or at least so warped and misshapen that it bears no resemblance to what it started out as.  

I am so sorry for your problem grahamg.  I have a very close and loving relationship with all of my grandchildren and I can't imagine it being any other way.  But I also know how hard I've had to work  with some very difficult obstacles in place (addiction of my son's ex, her remarriage to an alcoholic, and the use of the kids to manipulate the grandparents with) to maintain the relationships I have with them.  Luckily my obstacles were able to be overcome with time and patience.  I hope yours are too.


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## grahamg (Nov 14, 2018)

*Life is a series of transactions*



Ronni said:


> Family dynamics are both complex and nuanced, and no matter how much time you spend trying to understand the problem of another family, you can't possibly know all the intricacies of the issues even half as well as the people directly involved in those issues.    There are typically not just two sides to a story, but multiple sides, because of the sheer number of people involved in any situation.  Depending on issue + family structure you have the children, two parents, the siblings of the parents, both sets of grandparents on either side all of whom can be immediately involved.  Add to that the issues that arise with blended families where you have the Mom and the Step Dad plus the Dad and the Step Mom, which doubles the potential level of involvement from other family and step-family members.
> 
> Complex.  Complicated.  Intricate.  With so many sides to every single story, every incident, every slight, bump, rub, disagreement, argument, that it can so easily get out of hand and the original issue become lost, or at least so warped and misshapen that it bears no resemblance to what it started out as.
> 
> I am so sorry for your problem grahamg.  I have a very close and loving relationship with all of my grandchildren and I can't imagine it being any other way.  But I also know how hard I've had to work  with some very difficult obstacles in place (addiction of my son's ex, her remarriage to an alcoholic, and the use of the kids to manipulate the grandparents with) to maintain the relationships I have with them.  Luckily my obstacles were able to be overcome with time and patience.  I hope yours are too.



I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".

When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.

If as a result of that "love" you are lucky enough to help create a child, then as you've suggested another "family dynamic" appears.

Every encounter you then have with your child you could say adds more transactions to the very long list you've started long before they were born, and each affecting the next quite possibly. How you react towards your own child is to some extent dependent upon the way you felt about your partner/wife/husband in my view.

Now I hope to get somewhere near my point in this post. "In my case" it was the certainty, or almost certainty I'd be backed by the family courts over contact with my own child, that allowed me to feel the way I did about her. If I hadn't believed my relationship with her would have been backed I do not believe I could have been the loving parent I was, and remain to some extent.

Looked at from the child's perspective, they encounter all kinds of transactions don't they. We're probably all familiar with the concept of "divided loyalties" aren't we - if I love my dad am I being disloyal to my mum who doesn't love him or want me to love him? 

I cited the example of a father who spent a small fortune getting a judge to agree to him having contact with his son, (and his ex. spent a similar small fortune opposing him). The boy concerned made up stories of abuse against the father according to the trial judge, and the judge concluded the boy was damaged by the way the parents had behaved towards one another (though the boys comment "he just wanted a normal life" as his reasoning for making his assertions or allegations reveals to me the system is at fault too).

It is obviously shameful to make up stories of abuse against your parent/father, yet very easy to see how it might happen. In return for his love and commitment to his son this father had to face ten years of court battles (I'd suggest not over yet too), and he has a son prepared to behave as he has done towards him. After they've investigated every aspect of the sons relationship with his father do those same professionals, judges or court welfare officers tell the child he has been wrong to make up stories or do they do as they appear to have done here and talk only of how damaged he must be? 

A Canadian lawyer called Goldwater stated that there was a need for privacy in interpersonal relationships, and yet we can see this protection is not afforded to those going through family court disputes. Knowing you are going to be asked whether or not you love one of your parents puts that child in the impossible position of divided loyalty I mentioned earlier, and therefore should not be done in my view.

Sorry I went on so long here, there it is "life is a series of encounters or transactions", many of which may be out of your control and affect the next one, such as whether or not you feel loving towards your own child in my view.


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## Ronni (Nov 15, 2018)

grahamg said:


> I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".
> 
> When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.
> 
> ...



I can understand your explanation of the transactional nature of interactions with children.  I think that applies to all interpersonal relationships, familial or not.  Every interaction one has becomes the springboard for the next one, and sets either a positive or negative tone for the next interaction.  Each of those interactions builds a history, and that history is colored by the number of positive vs negative interactions or transactions, creating a preponderance of either pleasant or unpleasant memories.  

I do however have a different opinion and different experiences concerning the feelings towards ones children being influenced by the feelings towards ones spouse.  My ex-husband was an abusive, domineering and controlling man.  My history with him was wretched.  I was controlled to the point of becoming subservient and submissive, terrified of his wrath and his abuse.  I had 5 children with this man.  I love them with my whole heart, and NONE of the wretched horrible things he did to me influenced in the slightest my feelings towards my children. I hated him with a fierce passion.  I love my children with a greater degree of passion.   He has been out of our lives for years now, and we are a very close and loving family.


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## grahamg (Nov 15, 2018)

*Focus on broader questions*



Ronni said:


> Grahamg wrote:
> "I will try to be careful here, as I know I can tend to "go on a bit" during discussions, but you could say "life is a series of transactions".
> 
> When you marry you undertake a very public transaction, and you say, (or used to say), you will love the other person as long as you both shall live.
> ...




I know I've touched a nerve inadvertently, and I do know how few people having anything good to say about their ex.'s and father/mother of their children, and learnt a lot by speaking to other fathers on marches around London protesting. I've met some men who sound very much like your ex. and you have my sympathy there, because even a friend of mine who suffers from serious alcoholism and may die soon, was very controlling towards the mother of his four children, and arguably impossible to live with in my view. 

My ex. was definitely the better parent, very caring of our daughter, and she actually told me her two other children by the next man were not like our daughter (a stunning admission in my view, especially to tell me this was her view). Just to point out one of her more bizarre comments though, she said that she'd been "surprisingly loyal towards me" - and this at a time she'd been seeing another man for a few months behind my back, and the other man's wife's back.

However, the point of this thread is to raise broader questions as to how people who feel left out of society might behave. I'm obviously fairly cut off from young people because I'm not really connected in the way you are when you have children or grandchildren you're able to see regularly. I'm sure that has an effect upon my outlook, and I am certainly aggrieved and it makes me feel "everything is not okay with the way things are being run" - at least as far as family law goes, and to some extent beyond that too.


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## StarSong (Nov 15, 2018)

Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people.  Granted, you would have to put some effort forth.  If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school.  To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.    

In my experience, people of all ages are happy to form new relationships with kind, caring, helpful, positive individuals.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 15, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people. Granted, you would have to put some effort forth. If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school. To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.
> 
> In my experience, people of all ages are happy to form new relationships with kind, caring, helpful, positive individuals.



I agree people always seem to find a way to do the things that are important to them.

My mother used to volunteer as an aide to the local kindergarten class.

She also started taking piano lessons when she was in her 70's and most of the other folks in her class were under the age of 10.  They used to get a kick out of helping each other and doing recitals for the parents.


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## StarSong (Nov 15, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> *I agree people always seem to find a way to do the things that are important to them.*
> 
> My mother used to volunteer as an aide to the local kindergarten class.
> 
> She also started taking piano lessons when she was in her 70's and most of the other folks in her class were under the age of 10.  They used to get a kick out of helping each other and doing recitals for the parents.



I learned long ago that in life you either get what you want - or the reason why not.  Holds true every time for every scenario.  

Bea, your mother opted to get what she wanted rather than holding onto the reasons why she didn't have them.  I bet she was a pistol!


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## grahamg (Nov 15, 2018)

*Lamented by a family court judge here*



Aunt Bea said:


> Originally Posted by *StarSong*
> 
> "Not being connected with your daughter doesn't mean being cut off from all young people. Granted, you would have to put some effort forth. If you want to connect with children you can read aloud to little ones at a public library, or help out in a local school. To connect with adults of all ages, there are always volunteer opportunities dozens of charities.
> 
> ...




I'm not lamenting being cut off from young people, just acknowledging that is one of the likely affects following estrangement from one's children ("children keep you young" they say don't they).

You have reminded me though of a comment by a UK family court judge lamenting the numbers of children being brought up here in households with at least one parent other than their own. 

You may "agree people seem to find a way to do things that are important to them", and maybe having more to do with other people's children isn't that important to me (am I wrong to feel this way?). However, having something to do with my own child or grandchildren is another matter I hope I've demonstrated above.


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## grahamg (Nov 17, 2018)

*Using your reasoning.....*



Knight said:


> Truly a different way of life. Since interaction with my sons & grandchildren is almost daily I couldn't imagine thinking about using the court system to force what seems natural to me. I guess some families for whatever reason manage to get to that point.  I can say for sure that if that were to be our situation I know I would be to blame since it was my parenting style that caused the kind of situation described. But thankfully it's not.




If you don't mind my saying but "using your reasoning" above anyone losing contact with a child/grandchild must carry all the responsibility for the failure due to their "parenting style"  .

Obviously my friends from the father's rights and grandparents rights groups would tend to disagree with you there, plus some men I know and have quoted, wouldn't put up with the things I endured trying to do my best for my child, so I doubt you'd convince them either.


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 17, 2018)

I have no idea what caused the rift in your relationship with your daughter but I agree with others that have said mending that rift is the place to start.

As far as the grandchildren are concerned, I would ask myself what is best for them and not what would be best for me. If attempting to have contact with them causes upheaval in their lives then I would stay out of it entirely. If I thought that having contact with them provided some benefit to them I would make an effort to send cards, photographs, small token presents, letters, etc...   Keep the lines of communication open without making reference to any problems between you and their mother.  You may not get a response but they will learn a little something about you and when they are older they may make an effort to contact you.

Best wishes to you and your family for a successful resolution to this situation.


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## grahamg (Nov 18, 2018)

*Thank you for genuinely "self less" views*



Aunt Bea said:


> I have no idea what caused the rift in your relationship with your daughter but I agree with others that have said mending that rift is the place to start.
> 
> As far as the grandchildren are concerned, I would ask myself what is best for them and not what would be best for me. If attempting to have contact with them causes upheaval in their lives then I would stay out of it entirely. If I thought that having contact with them provided some benefit to them I would make an effort to send cards, photographs, small token presents, letters, etc...   Keep the lines of communication open without making reference to any problems between you and their mother.  You may not get a response but they will learn a little something about you and when they are older they may make an effort to contact you.
> 
> Best wishes to you and your family for a successful resolution to this situation.




Firstly that you for your kind post, and your genuinely"self less" views.

I'd wanted to come back on the thread to post some thoughts or suggestions as to what might be said to young people declining contact with one of their parents, and all the mess going on in the English family court system in my view, typified by the divorced couple spending a fortune over ten years concerning their apparently ungrateful son.

However, I will try to answer your reasoned post before I move on.

As far as what's good for my grandchildren, and thinking of that first. I think we'd agree putting them, and their mother (plus her really decent husband, who I've met just a couple of times but liked a great deal), through any kind of family court process is a no no. A waste of time and money, though I do not mean to criticise those grandparents prepared to do so, because I've met some grandparents through my campaigning experiences with very real reasons to be fearful for their grandchildren, and of course so many grandparents are not as able to be as "philosophical" about their exclusion as I am lucky to feel. My own mother thought a great deal of my daughter, and yet she did try to emphasise to me that as her own child she thought even more of me. It turned out my daughter went out of her way to stay in touch with her grandparents and vice versa, so a really positive thing occurred there, which I played some part in facilitating and never wished to interfere over. 

I can see what you're saying over "lines of communication" too, but unfortunately there are none open, as my daughter refuses presents I've attempted to send to my grandchildren via my ex. brother-in-law, and that is the only avenue available. So fearful was my brother-in-law when he gave me my second grandson's birth date, he told me not to tell anyone he'd done so, and even waited until his wife left the room before handing me the scrap of paper. Its hard to believe a grown man should feel so fearful when carrying our such a simple act, although I assure you it was the case, and he doesn't see much of the mother of my child, (his only sister) either.

Moving on now to my thoughts or suggestions as to what might be said to young people refusing contact with a parent (even if they're unlikely to listen at the time, due to their youth and inexperience).

I'd have it said to them that "although they may have been told all their lives that whether or not there should be any contact with their parent is all about their interests, there are "mutual interests" in any relationship, things that are indivisible like "love"".

Then I'd have it said to them that "although the law in our country allows their views to be listened to and taken seriously, (more so from the age of about twelve onwards), they should not be asked about whether they love their parent or not".

Finally I'd have it pointed out to them that "if one of their parents does not believe their relationship with them will be protected by the law following divorce or separation, then smaller children whose interests would certainly be served by contact with both their parents, may be less likely to get this contact. Do you wish to reject one of your parents, and in doing so do you wish to be responsible, in some small way, for the "elastic nature of all loving relationships" breaking down more often in future?"


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## grahamg (Nov 26, 2018)

I know this thread might well have runs its course (and thanks to all who have contributed), so it's maybe unwise to try to revive it, but just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:

"Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"


"Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and taken seriously?"


"Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"


"Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child any question they wish?"


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## RadishRose (Nov 26, 2018)

IMHO, it's run it's course.


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## StarSong (Nov 26, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> IMHO, it's run it's course.



Agreed.  

There's no reason to continue beating a dead horse unless you really, really need the glue.


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## grahamg (Nov 26, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> RadishRose wrote:
> 
> "IMHO, it's run it's course."
> 
> ...



Don't you two ever think differently   ???

You could have humoured me by answering my questions (if you're man enough!)........I liked the dead horse joke BTW, though I'm not sure my vegetarian friend would have appreciated it so much unfortunately  .


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## StarSong (Nov 27, 2018)

RR and I often think differently, just not on this topic.  

Graham, as best I can figure out from various SF posts you've made, your life was greatly affected by an acrimonious divorce and ugly custody fight.  At least in the custody portion you felt powerless and unfairly treated by the courts, your ex-wife, and possibly your daughter.  An unfortunate outcome has been your daughter's lingering bitterness toward you.  Because of those feelings, she isn't interested in a relationship with you and is also denying you access to her children.  Have I got that about right or have I misinterpreted your situation?      

This has to be agonizing for you, Graham.  I can only imagine your pain, disappointment and anger toward the humans and judicial system that you believe stripped you of a relationship with your child (and subsequent grandchildren).  

All that said, I found your questions calculating and disingenuous which is why I didn't answer them.  That doesn't change the fact that I feel sorry for your pain.  My heart goes out to you because you are obviously hurting deeply.    

As for the horse remark, I am fully a vegetarian, nearly a vegan, and owned horses in my younger years, so the joke was made tongue-in-cheek.


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## Sassycakes (Nov 27, 2018)

I feel very sorry for you that you can't have any contact with your grandchildren. It isn't fair in my opinion. If your daughter has problems with you she should handle them between you and her and not keep her children from contact with you. Does she allow your ex-wife to have contact with the children . If she does can that be part of the reason you aren't included in their lives. Could your Ex have spread lies about you to your daughter ? In any case I am sorry that you can't be a part of their lives.


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## ClassicRockr (Nov 27, 2018)

There are lots of grandparents who are estranged from their adult kids and grandkids for certain reasons...……...as my wife and I are from my daughter and daughers son, but life goes on for all of us. My wife fully understands the turmoil that happened years ago between my daughter and myself and the turmoil that happened between her and her mother (my "ex"). 

My daughter use to be on Facebook and we communicated on there, then she had an "out and out" with her mom, that involved law enforcement, moved away with her son and that was the end of our communications.


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## grahamg (Nov 27, 2018)

*My daughters first word*



Sassycakes said:


> I feel very sorry for you that you can't have any contact with your grandchildren. It isn't fair in my opinion. If your daughter has problems with you she should handle them between you and her and not keep her children from contact with you. Does she allow your ex-wife to have contact with the children . If she does can that be part of the reason you aren't included in their lives. Could your Ex have spread lies about you to your daughter ? In any case I am sorry that you can't be a part of their lives.



Honestly, don't feel so sad for me, because there are so many people out there more deserving of your sympathy and concern, and I am very very proud of my daughter (along with angry I admit), and she is a blessing to me regardless of anything that has happened since she arrived on this planet.

Mentioning her mother, as you've intuitively done, she told our daughter her first word was "mum", and of course our child believed this lie. The fact she even had to change our daughter's understanding, or knowledge of her first word says a lot about her (maybe she should be asked to complete the narcissistic trends survey). My ex. used to complain when we were together that it was not fair "da" or "dad" was our daughter's first word, so that leaves no room for doubt M'Lord!


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## grahamg (Nov 27, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> There are lots of grandparents who are estranged from their adult kids and grandkids for certain reasons...……...as my wife and I are from my daughter and daughers son, but life goes on for all of us. My wife fully understands the turmoil that happened years ago between my daughter and myself and the turmoil that happened between her and her mother (my "ex").
> 
> My daughter use to be on Facebook and we communicated on there, then she had an "out and out" with her mom, that involved law enforcement, moved away with her son and that was the end of our communications.




Very glad you are able to get on with your own life, just as so many do when they're excluded as I know from my father's rights campaigning days.


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## grahamg (Nov 27, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Grahamg wrote:
> "..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
> 
> "Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
> ...




Okay, although I said you and RR think alike all the time I did not really mean it, and was just teasing you both (I'm afraid my memory is slipping a bit and can't be certain of most forum members views unless we've "had a run in" over something).

My questions are calculating, though I'd argue not disingenuous, because I do believe they are fair if as we know, children can be asked by family court welfare officers whether or not they love one of their parents, removing all semblance of privacy from such close interpersonal relationships as these (Goldwater, a Canadian lawyer wrote of the need for privacy in personal relationships back in or around 1990, along with a quote I could give you about "children's susceptibility to manipulation and control").

If you don't feel you can answer them, that tells me "I'm on the money" over the issues my questions raise.


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## treeguy64 (Nov 27, 2018)

Lots of verbosity on this topic. If my daughter suddenly decided I could no longer see my granddaughters, my life would go on, minus my interactions with those two. I'd be fine. Parents should be the judges of who sees their kids, NOT the courts. Only in abuse cases should the courts get involved. Kids do just fine without grandparents, although I'm sure many, in here,  will disagree. So be it.


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## grahamg (Nov 27, 2018)

treeguy64 said:


> Lots of verbosity on this topic. If my daughter suddenly decided I could no longer see my granddaughters, my life would go on, minus my interactions with those two. I'd be fine. Parents should be the judges of who sees their kids, NOT the courts. Only in abuse cases should the courts get involved. Kids do just fine without grandparents, although I'm sure many, in here,  will disagree. So be it.




I agree so far as "lots of verbosity on this topic", but would query why such behaviour might cause a problem? 

So far as grandparents being excluded, and kids being fine etc. I do know of one example at least where a child was not okay when taken away from loving grandparents by the father and his new girlfriend of two weeks (the mother having died of cancer, and the grandparents being the child's main carer for a period after her death). Those grandparents were told by the family court in Scotland that they were "irrelevant people", but those grandparents did not take such a rebuff lightly, set up a self help group where many many other grandparents came forward with similarly heart breaking stories, and groups were set up across the UK as a result (GrandparentApart self help group). The man who set it up is now no longer with us, but he didn't take kindly to being dismissed as I've said, so do try to think about his point of view if you can.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 27, 2018)

I come from a dysfunctional family. My 17 year old niece was dating a 45 year old married guy, with 5 kids. Her mother & father (my brother) forbade her to see him any more. It turns out that her grandparents (my mom & dad) were allowing the couple to meet at their home. And my parents left the home to give my niece "some privacy". You can imagine the family dynamics when my brother & his wife found out about this. I think most people would agree that my parents stepped over the line. My parents don't think so.  Was my niece driven to the arms of a married man by her parents? I don't have any snappy answers to fix this situation. There aren't any.


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## StarSong (Nov 28, 2018)

Fuzzy, "furious and disappointed" wouldn't begin to cover how I would feel if I were your brother and sister-in-law.  Your parents not only stepped over the line, they obliterated it.

At 17 your niece isn't yet thinking like an adult - although she surely believes otherwise.  45 year old married men don't spend time with teenage girls for their sparkling wit, delightful conversation and grasp of current events.


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## Ronni (Nov 28, 2018)

grahamg said:


> If you don't feel you can answer them, that tells me "I'm on the money" over the issues my questions raise.



The word "abuse" is thrown around freely these days.  I read your questions and went where I always go when someone mentions abuse in any context....do they actually know what they're talking about? As as a years long victims of abuse, and finally as a survivor, I can tell you that most folks don't have a clue what the word and the actions that go along with it actually mean, so it's difficult for me to assign much validity to your questions without knowing if you truly understand what you're talking about when you ask them.  I mean no disrespect, but having been in the clutches of an abusive man for many years, watching my children be abused, suffering from PTSD and countless triggers as a result of the abuse I and my children experienced, I am skeptical when it comes to questions and discussions surrounding abuse, which is simply a convenient word to most people, but the fact of abuse is complex and nuanced, involving a psychology and psychopathy that is complicated.  

It's taken me many years of counseling, therapy, group support and a lot of hard work on myself to get beyond the emotional and mental wounds inflicted on me from the abuse I experienced.  The physical bruises healed quickly, but I'm still fighting the emotional and mental wounds.  

I'm not saying any of this to garner sympathy, but simply to add a perspective and a depth to the subject.


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## grahamg (Nov 28, 2018)

Ronni said:


> The word "abuse" is thrown around freely these days. .
> 
> .



Just verbal abuse is my topic here


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## Ronni (Nov 28, 2018)

grahamg said:


> *Just* verbal abuse is my topic here



I realize you do not mean to sound dismissive in the way you phrased that.  Verbal abuse is abuse, along with mental, emotional, financial and ****** abuse,  all of which can leave wounds and scars that go far deeper than physical abuse does. A broken bone will heal, a broken spirit sometimes never does. 

My point stands. The word abuse is thrown around freely and until and unless I know without question that the person using the word knows fully and completely what they’re talking about, then I remain skeptical.


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## grahamg (Nov 28, 2018)

*I ceertainly dont mean abuse in the sense you're thinking*



Ronni said:


> I realize you do not mean to sound dismissive in the way you phrased that.  Verbal abuse is abuse, along with mental, emotional, financial and ****** abuse,  all of which can leave wounds and scars that go far deeper than physical abuse does. A broken bone will heal, a broken spirit sometimes never does.
> 
> My point stands. The word abuse is thrown around freely and until and unless I know without question that the person using the word knows fully and completely what they’re talking about, then I remain skeptical.




So far no one has come forward to try to answer my four questions, and if you don't mind my saying side tracking the thread into a debate about "domestic abuse" isn't likely to help.

In no way do I mean to say anything you might object to, as I'm only using the word "abuse" because I can think of no other.

I definitely "abused" my own mother, in the sense that I told her to "shut up" when she'd be "going on" about something (she loved me nonetheless, and my daughter, and never held anything against either of us).

If people can't answer simple questions, then as I've said earlier, "that is data", because if you say "I am in favour of children abusing a loving parent" (meaning no one should attempt to interfere and ban them from doing so), then I'd agree with you, no problem - but why no answers   ?


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## toffee (Nov 28, 2018)

We hear quite a bit from you on this issue -----we dont know what has gone on and only hearing one side which is yours ' so it makes very hard graham to voice any advice  there is a bad bitterness there with the ex ' so not knowing all  intimate details not sure what you need to do '
but seeing you care for your daughter -both need to sit and talk away from others ……….


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 28, 2018)

I told my tale about how family matters can get messed up. Each side believing they are in the "right". As far as answering your 4 questions, only you can answer that.You're going to figure out for yourself what you truly want, and whether your actions are effective in pursuing your goals.


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## grahamg (Nov 28, 2018)

*No one can answer whether or not they are in favour of children abusing parents other than I?*



fuzzybuddy said:


> I told my tale about how family matters can get messed up. Each side believing they are in the "right". As far as answering your 4 questions, only you can answer that.You're going to figure out for yourself what you truly want, and whether your actions are effective in pursuing your goals.




So, no one other than myself can answer the questions I've brought up (generic questions I'd argue anyone on the planet could give some kind of response to), and they apply only to my situation you say?

Amongst the unexpected responses I get to the posts I make on one or two forums, your argument is right up there I have to tell you, and yet quite amusing for all that I must say   .


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## grahamg (Nov 28, 2018)

toffee said:


> We hear quite a bit from you on this issue -----we dont know what has gone on and only hearing one side which is yours ' so it makes very hard graham to voice any advice  there is a bad bitterness there with the ex ' so not knowing all  intimate details not sure what you need to do '
> but seeing you care for your daughter -both need to sit and talk away from others ……….




You are right there, and I appreciate the forbearance shown, but I assure you it isn't the only thing I go on and on about even if it is the most persistent.

I would argue that as your children, if you wanted children in the first place, and a really great/unique little girl arrived, one planned by their parents along time prior (from fairly soon after they met), well something that close to what you feel is important to you is going to be something worth bothering others about when you don't see them.

The subject of alienation from children has been covered in books, and many doctors have written about it, (call it pseudoscience perhaps, but well and truly investigated). 

As a fathers rights protestor back in the early years of this century I was urged by organisers of the protests to write to the bodies deciding what should enter the US list of recognised diseases and tell them "PAS" or "Parental alienation syndrome" should be added. I never did so and I'd glad I didn't, because to start with I don't know enough to tell any doctors what should be added to a list of diseases and I've now read a paper saying why there is resistance to pathologising alienation (pathologising childhood would result in my view).

Still, no answers yet to a single question - any brave souls out there wishing to stick their necks out (no, thought not  !).


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 29, 2018)

Asking questions doesn't necessarily mean that one is seeking answers, as much as conversation.


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## Ronni (Nov 29, 2018)

> So far no one has come forward to try to answer my four questions, and if you don't mind my saying side tracking the thread into a debate about "domestic abuse" isn't likely to help.
> 
> In no way do I mean to say anything you might object to, as I'm only using the word "abuse" because I can think of no other.
> 
> I definitely "abused" my own mother, in the sense that I told her to "shut up" when she'd be "going on" about something (she loved me nonetheless, and my daughter, and never held anything against either of us).



Bringing up the subject of abuse isn't side-tracking, it's simply defining terms.  If you consider that telling your Mom to shut up is abuse, then you've completely proven my point.  



> Still, no answers yet to a single question - any brave souls out there wishing to stick their necks out (no, thought not
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your questions are in fact disingenuous. Do you know what that means?  _"Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."_ 

That's probably why you've received no answers.  Do you actually expect anyone to answer IN THE AFFIRMATIVE on the subject of children "abusing" their loving parents???   Seriously?  

Define your terms, specifically.  And then ask genuine questions.  And then you might get some thoughtful responses.


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## grahamg (Nov 29, 2018)

*In support of my point of view*



Ronni said:


> Bringing up the subject of abuse isn't side-tracking, it's simply defining terms.  If you consider that telling your Mom to shut up is abuse, then you've completely proven my point.
> 
> Your questions are in fact disingenuous. Do you know what that means?  _"Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."_
> 
> ...




Look, you can define all you like, but my questions can be answered in whatever way anyone wishes to, but no one answering doesn't mean everyone thinks as you do or some others have suggested. 

Here is a funny thing for you, when our UK family law makers, or family law experts looked at the issue or meaning of "The child's best interests" (Mnookin says no less a question than the meaning of life by the way), the professionals looking at the way our society responds to suggestions other considerations might play a part in family law, essentially by refusing to countenance such a thought, tells them the public's perception of a child's best interest has an almost mystical belief about it. Can't quote you there exact words, but they said something along the lines of the "power" behind saying this or that is in the child's best interests, over takes all other considerations.


Why is that linked to my questions you may ask? Well, it is just possible that those refusing to give even frivolous responses, or any kind of response, such as yourself perhaps, feel that in some way you are attacking the roots of what may or may not be "in children's best interests". Should they be encouraged to abuse a loving parent/parents, as I believe they are by "listening to their views, and taking them seriously"? Is it disingenuous to ask whether privacy is important in close personal relationships (if it is then the Canadian lawyer Goldwater was equally guilty)?

Don't respond if you wish, but questions will always be raised by someone, and if one day your son becomes estranged from his children, or you become estranged from grandchild then maybe my "silly, disingenuous, insincere questions may come to your mind too.


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## hollydolly (Nov 29, 2018)

Good grief Graham, you're taking your anger out on the wrong people...reign yourself in man...


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## StarSong (Nov 29, 2018)

grahamg said:


> So, no one other than myself can answer the questions I've brought up (generic questions I'd argue anyone on the planet could give some kind of response to), and they apply only to my situation you say?
> 
> Amongst the unexpected responses I get to the posts I make on one or two forums, your argument is right up there I have to tell you, and yet quite amusing for all that I must say   .



Your questions:
Grahamg wrote:
"..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
 "Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"  
I'm not in favor of abuse of any kind.  However, Adults (unless disabled or otherwise dependent on their children) can easily remove themselves from situations in which they find themselves abused.  Children are not so fortunate.  One would also need to learn from the child in question what precipitated the anger being directed at said parent.  It's a parent's job to not take certain statements personally, particularly when putting their children through the stress of an acrimonious divorce or other situations that are completely out of their control but affect every aspect of their lives.        

 "Are you in favour of giving children a platform to verbally abuse  their parents, in the guise of children's views being listened to and  taken seriously?"
Yes, I believe children should be listened to and taken seriously, even if the way they frame their take on an experience hurts their parents' feelings.    

 "Do you agree that any parent, following their divorce or separation  from the other parent, should have no right to any privacy, even where  there are no fears of any abuse regarding their child?"
Obviously this is specific to your situation.  No idea why the courts would be looking deeply into your life.  I'm generally in favor of courts determining whether a parent's life should be thoroughly investigated before allowing full access to his/her child.  

 "Is privacy in close interpersonal relationships required at all, or  should any court appointed professional be permitted to ask your child  any question they wish?"
No privacy is required.  All questions are fair game.


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## Ronni (Nov 29, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Don't respond if you wish, but questions will always be raised by someone, and if one day your son becomes estranged from his children, or you become estranged from grandchild then maybe my "silly, disingenuous, insincere questions may come to your mind too.



Both those scenarios HAVE happened in my immediate family.  One of my children did become estranged from his children.  I also became estranged from three of my grandchildren. Both situations are now resolved after considerable time and attention.  I’ve lived what you write about, so I write responses with considerable experience behind them. My points still stand.


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## grahamg (Nov 29, 2018)

*Really kind of you*



StarSong said:


> Your questions:
> Grahamg wrote:
> "..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
> "Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
> ...




Really kind of you to answer my questions (albeit it was a bit like drawing teeth getting there you'd agree?).

I pretty much agree with your first answer, and disagree almost totally with your other three, (the less frivolous/disingenuous questions perhaps  ).

It is useful to me to hear the views of others, particularly where they disagree with quoted family lawyers such as Goldwater, the Canadian lawyer I keep quoting, and if I can find a link to his views I'll try to let anyone who may be interested know why he disagrees with you on the need for privacy in close interpersonal relationships.

I'm in a bit of a rush, and the internet connection here in this "restaurant" is rubbish, so I keep getting cut off if I don't post quickly, but I have some fun comments for you to look forward to.


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## grahamg (Nov 30, 2018)

hollydolly said:


> Good grief Graham, you're taking your anger out on the wrong people...reign yourself in man...




Coming from your good self I know how well meant your words are, and I find them funny strange as that may sound to say so (as a self confessed "fool" I'm allowed odd reactions perhaps). 

If I lived in your well ordered world I'd perhaps take a different view to the one I do, (I'm assuming your world is well ordered), and I'm sure I wouldn't mess with you, or your head too much too  . 

One fun comment for you I asked a good friend's very kind wife my silly questions last night, and she did comment so far as the first question "Obviously I'm not in favour of children verbally abusing their parents", so not too difficult to deal with for her it seems (at least!).

We went on to a very pleasant discussion, along with her thirteen year old son who is pretty smart for his age too. He made the point perhaps echoing yours, that it is a danger you'll tie yourself up in arguments such as these for the rest of your life. However, if you'd met some of my old fathers rights campaigning friends you'd have a better idea just how far some of the fathers do go trying to see their children, and my comment to them was that it had completely taken them over. Their response was that they knew it had, but if they hadn't campaigned in the way they did, they'd probably have gone completely off their heads.


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## MeAgain (Nov 30, 2018)

Hi grahamg,

I've been reading this thread and not sure I have an answer to your problem. I will say that many of us have or have had similar problems with our kids.
  IMO courts are not the place to resolve family issues. 
  And it also seems that much of the family issues are world wide now and society has  lot to do with it. 
   I read that some nations are suing their kids for not visiting them. 
   My problem with my kids is their grandkids can't do wrong. One is raising her two grandsons which for first 8 yr.s could do no wrong aka spoiled and unruly. Now they are getting more correction and acting better. If you do get to see your grands, just remember if you want to get along with any of them "kids rule " now. Not so much just 20 years ago.
  Good luck hope things go your way soon.


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## hollydolly (Nov 30, 2018)

LOL>..well I wouldn't say my life has been well ordered,..far from it graham..but thank you for the compliment..

I just don't like to see you getting yourself so upset about it all, that you're taking your frustrations out on those whose opinions you're hoping will help... do take care!!


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## RadishRose (Nov 30, 2018)

:beatdeadhorse:


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## Ronni (Nov 30, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> :beatdeadhorse:



:lol:  You are nothing if not pithy RR!!


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## Butterfly (Dec 1, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Your questions:
> Grahamg wrote:
> "..........just in case it prompts interest here goes my latest thoughts in the form of a list of questions:
> "Are you in favour of children verbally abusing their loving parent/parents?"
> ...



I agree with you, StarSong.  

Once the question of custody or abuse is before a court, the court has the right and even obligation to investigate in order to make decisions about custody and visitation.  This question is well settled in our courts, at least here where I live.  Here, agencies in charge of such matters have been sued and held accountable in cases where they did not investigate thoroughly enough or failed to take action and subsequently a child has been harmed or killed.


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## grahamg (Dec 1, 2018)

*The harm standard you're referring to*



Butterfly said:


> I agree with you, Keesha.
> 
> Once the question of custody or abuse is before a court, the court has the right and even obligation to investigate in order to make decisions about custody and visitation.  This question is well settled in our courts, at least here where I live.  Here, agencies in charge of such matters have been sued and held accountable in cases where they did not investigate thoroughly enough or failed to take action and subsequently a child has been harmed or killed.




In the UK there is something called the "Harm standard" in our laws, which is a different consideration than what may or may not be in a child's best interests (the basis of UK family law for contact with your children, and a much flimsier level of protection for parents seeking contact). The "harm standard" is used to decide whether children should be taken from "intact families" for example, to give a level of defence to those parents, so the authorities can't just step in whenever some professional disagrees with your parenting style, or whether you take your child to "interesting or enjoyable places during contact visits", as I assure you they do here, as at least one reason for interfering.

I know US states differ in their family laws (some actually use the word "Love" when considering a child's contact with their parent), and yes it is different than the UK, though as our forum friends above have commented, there's plenty of trouble around across the world over this issue.

Must go, got to try to amuse Holly Dolly if I'm able to live up to my promise  .


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## grahamg (Dec 1, 2018)

MeAgain said:


> Hi grahamg,
> 
> I've been reading this thread and not sure I have an answer to your problem. I will say that many of us have or have had similar problems with our kids.
> IMO courts are not the place to resolve family issues.
> ...



Very heart warming response, so obviously thank you very much for those kind words, and details you've witnessed.

My parents were funny when it came to my brothers children, or my many sisters children (seventeen grandchildren in total, at the last count they had, though everyone past breeding age now, so I don't know why I said that really). I think it fair to say they enjoyed seeing all their grandchildren, and there was one lovely granddaughter no one was allowed to criticise because of my youngest sisters attitude. Even my dad, who didn't hold back much, did keep fairly quiet when she behaved in a spoilt manner, though my parents took to hiding all the sweets or chocolates in a very high cupboard to prevent her seeing them, or demanding them. My niece has turned out very well I'm glad to say, but yes there were many occasions when she visited my home, that it was no pleasure "being ruled by her" essentially, till she got old enough to show a much better side to her character (another child totally alienated from her father I have to say though, and there is little or no doubt who was behind that situation).


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## grahamg (Dec 1, 2018)

hollydolly said:


> LOL>..well I wouldn't say my life has been well ordered,..far from it graham..but thank you for the compliment..
> 
> I just don't like to see you getting yourself so upset about it all, that you're taking your frustrations out on those whose opinions you're hoping will help... do take care!!



Me upset?

Well yes, I know what you mean, but as I keep saying things could definitely be much worse (think of those excluded parents/grandparents/fathers who know or fear their children are suffering in some way and they can't help them).

Now, can I amuse you, well this may not be funny exactly but worth relating even if not amusing.

My daughter came to stay with me on a few occasions (very few really, maybe once or twice at my parents farm, one to East Yorkshire where I used to live for a couple of years, and once to Wiltshire where I also lived for a time). On her visit to Wiltshire she played me up quite a bit, but I had a very good hearted girlfriend at the time, who my daughter seemed to like (telling her she'd make a "trendy mum"! - Others suffered adverse comments, such as one told "You wont last long!"  ).

Anyway, when we arrived down in Wiltshire we visited a pub near to Stonehenge, where I'd stayed when I moved to the area, and knew the landlady well (she's still a very good friend). My daughter wished to make sure no one in this pub could say that she was enjoying herself being with me (see my comments on this in one of the above responses to other forum members). My daughter got up half way through drinking her orange juice to announce to complete strangers "I want everyone to know I hate him, he's horrible!", and then satisfied she'd made her point, or her conscience satisfied she sat down to finish her drink.

Though a first, she'd made the same comments over a protracted period to my family, but here's the rub, (before the "examine what you've done lobby" jump into gear), she said at the same time "Keep coming daddy" - totally unaware of the obvious contradiction. Daddy kept coming as long as he was allowed, but that's a story I'll leave for now (for fear of boring RR even more, if nothing else  ).


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## hollydolly (Dec 1, 2018)

How old was your daughter when she had the little tantrum in the pub.?..older than 10 then it was completely unacceptable.


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## toffee (Dec 1, 2018)

well that is the worst thing I have heard from someone /or a kid / somewhere along the lines she's either been fed lies ' but besides that - I have to say please or offend she needed a good slap -seems like your daughter lost her manners somewhere ' a lot of hatred for someone so young - sounds spoilt or brainwashed 'the mother is a lot to blame as I see it ' and you to for letting her finish her drink and ignoring the humiliation ………..so now she is older -nothing has changed !!!!!


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## C'est Moi (Dec 1, 2018)

hollydolly said:


> How old was your daughter when she had the little tantrum in the pub.?..older than 10 then it was completely unacceptable.


I'd find it more interesting to know why the daughter is so angry.   We are only hearing one side of this mini-drama.


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## grahamg (Dec 2, 2018)

*Not an unexpected response there*



C'est Moi said:


> I'd find it more interesting to know why the daughter is so angry.   We are only hearing one side of this mini-drama.




One day, you never know, you may get to hear the other side of the story if that is all that will satisfy you. 

I do know that there are some professionals working in the family law field, who even refuse to accept the "other side of the story", when the now grown children say they were making up stories against their parents "to satisfy them", or get away from their never ceasing questions. "Do you want me to believe those little children lied" is the puerile response of people/professionals responsible for messing in such a serious way with the family lives of numerous parents and children here in the UK

I'm not meaning to impune all professionals here, most obviously do not behave this way, but the reputation of one group of them could not be lower in the eyes of a whole host of fathers/mothers/grandparents groups who attended a meeting in Westminster fifteen years ago, attended by our current prime minister Theresa May.


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## grahamg (Dec 2, 2018)

hollydolly said:


> How old was your daughter when she had the little tantrum in the pub.?..older than 10 then it was completely unacceptable.



My daughter was probably between 8 and 10, when she used to say her "party piece".

It did start to wane a bit when one of my sisters responded to her by saying, "you can't tell us our brother's horrible, because we know he's not", or words to that effect. My mum was funny about it too, and just emphasised it was her son she was criticising (my daughter's response was that as I was her dad she could say what she liked). Amongst all this nonsense there were so many good, positive things happening too, lets not forget. My daughter was chosen as "Safety monitor" at her school - maybe not the most glamourous position for an eleven year old, but indicating perhaps how mature she was. She was also chosen to assist a young Russian girl who came to their school, and needed help understanding the lessons.

I will tell just you, as I know you're a friend, that I did once push my daughter to say whether she loved me or not? "Deep down I do", she said, and I couldn't have wished for more could I, especially in the circumstances being faced, and if it meant she chose not to tell anyone else so be it (not that everyone on the forum would believe it without hearing from her of course  ).


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## grahamg (Dec 2, 2018)

toffee said:


> well that is the worst thing I have heard from someone /or a kid / somewhere along the lines she's either been fed lies ' but besides that - I have to say please or offend she needed a good slap -seems like your daughter lost her manners somewhere ' a lot of hatred for someone so young - sounds spoilt or brainwashed 'the mother is a lot to blame as I see it ' and you to for letting her finish her drink and ignoring the humiliation ………..so now she is older -nothing has changed !!!!!



This has changed, and odd as it must seem to anyone reading this thread, and is to me too, my daughter came to my father's funeral (her grandfather obviously), two years ago and stood beside me, and behaved pretty much "as though she'd never been away"  !

Since then she's refused to accept presents I'd left at my former brother-in-laws house for her sons, and once again that seems a big contradiction doesn't it.

Earlier in this thread I said I agreed with the first one of the responses I'd been given to my four questions, and that explains as well as I'm able to why I behaved as I did when my daughter chose to "humiliate me" in front of a pretty scarcely populated pub. The "humiliation" was a flea bite really, and the reaction of the young woman behind the bar was one of amazement, perhaps at the level of confidence my daughter showed being prepared to do it, and no one took it seriously. Why she felt the need is perhaps the most pertinent question, taking away whatever anyone wants to infer I'd done wrong, but if my daughter correctly assumed she wasn't permitted privacy concerning her relationship with her father, then I'd say that goes some way.


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## toffee (Dec 9, 2018)

reading all these pages  -i think you are the only one who knows what went wrong ' us on the forum are picking at it to what we think incl me ; clearly you dont like feed back - so best live with what you have now …...end !


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## grahamg (Dec 10, 2018)

*No problem*



toffee said:


> reading all these pages  -i think you are the only one who knows what went wrong ' us on the forum are picking at it to what we think incl me ; clearly you dont like feed back - so best live with what you have now …...end !




No problem sweetie, good luck, and have a good Christmas  .


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## MeAgain (Dec 11, 2018)

Hope you find some kind of resolution or at least something to fill the void. 
 Best of luck to you Grahamg.


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## grahamg (Dec 12, 2018)

*Means alot*



MeAgain said:


> Hope you find some kind of resolution or at least something to fill the void.
> Best of luck to you Grahamg.



It does mean quite a lot when someone you've never met comes along and makes a comment like that, so thanks obviously  .


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## Ellejay (Dec 12, 2018)

I've also been through this. My middle daughter was raised (after age 7) by her father and a woman who essentially acted as a step-mother though she and my ex-husband never married. They are still together after all these years.

Anyhow, a lot of what you write echoes what I've experienced with my daughter. Her older sister, raised in the same situation, reconciled with me when she was 18, so I know a bit of what went on there, but the younger of the two girls has never reconciled with me and hasn't spoken to me since she was about 17. Now she's 37. She was in the Navy 6 years, earned a PhD, got married, and had two children. I've never seen the children and wasn't invited to the graduations or wedding. 

I'm kind of used to it now. I have four other children who have told her repeatedly that she should quit treating me like I don't exist and that I'm not a bad person who would deserve this. She's never been willing to tell me why she hates me so much. It is just something I've learned to live with, and if she doesn't want any relationship with me, I'm kind of okay with that now. After 20 years of distress over the situation I'm just tired of being so distressed. She gets what she asks for... and I get to get on with having a happy life.


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## Colleen (Dec 12, 2018)

I'm late to this thread but I just want to relate our situation with my husband's middle child, Doug. I call him a "child" because that's what he acts like, even though he's 46. He's married to a very manipulative woman and they have 2 boys, age 12 and 10. They have no clue who their grandfather (my husband) is. They were never allowed to talk to him on the phone. Their mother didn't want them to have anything to do with Doug's side of the family. We did visit them one time 8 years ago. They live in Anaheim, CA and at the time all 3 of my husband's "kids" lived there. They wanted to celebrate their father's 70th birthday so we went out there for a couple weeks. We were suppose to stay with Doug and his wife and see the 2 grandkids. When we got to their house, there was no bed in the guestroom...there was just a blow-up air mattress on the floor. Doug's wife had just sold the bed before we came. Nice, right? That was just a subtle hint that she didn't want us there. She had no food in the house so we went shopping and bought groceries. The kids didn't want anything to do with us and the oldest was very rude. He slammed the bathroom door in my face one morning and told me to get out of his bathroom. They didn't do or say anything. This from a 4 year old. We took everyone to Disneyland and the oldest kept kicking the back of our seats on one of the rides. Never a thank you for taking them. Nothing. We left their house the next day and stayed with my husband's daughter and her husband the rest of the time.

My husband use to talk to Doug and ask if he could talk to the kids, but Doug would always give some excuse. Then the phone calls stopped. We haven't heard or talked to Doug in years, but that's Doug's choice. I feel bad that my husband will never know his grandkids but there's nothing we can do about it. We don't sit around feeling sorry for ourselves over it. Life is too short to be a hostage for someone else's choices.


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## Ellejay (Dec 12, 2018)

Colleen said:


> Life is too short to be a hostage for someone else's choices.



Amen to that, and thank you for writing it.


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