# A Basic Income for Every Adult



## MercyL

> [h=2]*Switzerland will vote on giving every adult in the country a $2,800  check every month.
> *[/h]



I think Nixon came up with a plan similar to what the Swiss are considering. Everyone would get a basic "salary". IF you want more than what that salary provides, you go out and work for it. The stipend could help people with housing, clothing and/or food and those of us who still work would benefit more from that work than we currently do.

I like the idea, even if it has a few snags that need work.


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## Anne

Where would this money come from??  Taxpayers??  While it sounds wonderful to get a check for just existing, it's a good way to make people more dependent on the gov't, who then controls you just a little bit more.  They'd like to do something like that here, I'm sure.


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## MercyL

Anne said:


> Where would this money come from??  Taxpayers??  While it sounds wonderful to get a check for just existing, it's a good way to make people more dependent on the gov't, who then controls you just a little bit more.  They'd like to do something like that here, I'm sure.




I am sure that, once a country decides to create the "basic income barrier to complete homelessness", there will be tweaks and adjustments, just as there are with all new policies.

The government can already control you much the way stated in the quote. They can freeze bank accounts, they can arrest you as a terrorist, then send you to Gitmo, no questions asked (I'm in the USA, BTW). As far as being dependent on the government, no person has to be more dependent than they are comfortable with, unless they belong to a minority group and must fight for both jobs and equal pay, first. Nothing prevents citizens from working to improve their lot, but the stipend should prevent many of the problems folk develop from suffering long term homelessness.

 The $2800.00 per month is probably cheaper than housing the poor in jails and psychiatric hospitals.

Only newborns "just exist". Even the long term unemployed consume food, and need clothing to land a job. They need protection from the weather and they need healthcare. I seriously doubt too many people will be content to simply sit on the little bit that 2,800 will cover but they can live with less background stress if they know they can at least pay for housing. Rates of stress sensitive and stress related disorders like diabetes, obesity, and high blood pressure might fall If people know they'll still be able to buy food and housing if they lose their job.


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## SeaBreeze

The money _has _to come from taxpayers, citizens who have worked for years and had money taken out of their paychecks for taxes, and pay taxes for all their purchases, etc. I think that people need to take some responsibility for themselves and their families in America, not just sit back and wait for the nanny government to dole out our hard earned tax dollars to those not willing to help themselves...bad example for the youth growing up also.

The poor shouldn't be in jails, unless they are criminals committing crimes. I don't think the poor are to be thought of as mentally ill either, so why would they be in psychiatric hospitals?  Also, why would _everyone _get the $2800, even the richest that do not need it at all, that doesn't make any sense either.

I think that people who are willing to work, will find a way to become employed, but that desire needs to be present. Why would they even bother to be responsible and work for a living if they were handed checks for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe if the poor would actually spend the money they're given on health insurance, food and "necessary" clothing, it wouldn't be so bad. But, I've known of people, way back in the day, who traded their food stamps for cigarettes, alcohol and drugs. The welfare check is spent on cell phones, name brand clothing, manicures, etc...instead of diapers for the baby, health insurance, etc. etc.

I'm against it, my mother told me long ago that there was no free lunch. This nation will spiral downwards even faster with more free money gifts going to those who do not deserve it, or are not willing to help themselves. :dollar:


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## Knightofalbion

A humane attempt at finding a solution to homelessness and the financial hardship that so many are suffering.

I don't think it could work to that degree with a country with a much larger population...

But a  redistribution of wealth is what the world needs.


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## MercyL

> The poor shouldn't be in jails, unless they are criminals committing  crimes. I don't think the poor are to be thought of as mentally ill  either, so why would they be in psychiatric hospitals?  Also, why would _everyone _get the $2800, even the richest that do not need it at all, that doesn't make any sense either.



The poor are also often homeless. There are sweeps that pick up homeless people , presenting them camping in doorways and sleeping on heated grates. Some of those homeless are put i jails for unlawful camping, trespassing, and other charges used to remove them. The local government keeps them out of sight, this way.

Other poor people are picked up by police and taken to the local emergency room for care. In the emergency room, doctor's determine who they release to police and who goes to detox, or the psyche ward. The poor are taken one of three places, where I live. Jail, the mental hospital, or Detox.

As far as who makes too much for the stipend, that is up to the locals. I do not know what the Swiss have come up with, yet. They are considering options.


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## SeaBreeze

Well, from what I understand, there are homeless shelters that exist to give those people a place to stay until they can get on their feet.  They will also help them with finding employment when possible, or drug rehab.  The ones that insist on living in the streets, are the ones not willing to give up their drinking and drug habits...that's why I don't give my hard earned money to street beggars anymore, I know better, they're not going to go to the store for a turkey sandwich, they're going to the liquor store for some cheap booze.  Aside from the few that may be mentally ill, the others that want to walk the straight and narrow usually will find help along the way.


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## Anne

Here is part of the problem when people get 'taken care of', and the credit suddenly isn't there; can you imagine if it shut down for a long time???

http://www.naturalnews.com/042479_EBT_cards_Walmart_looting.html


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## MercyL

SeaBreeze said:


> Well, from what I understand, there are homeless shelters that exist to give those people a place to stay until they can get on their feet.  They will also help them with finding employment when possible, or drug rehab.  The ones that insist on living in the streets, are the ones not willing to give up their drinking and drug habits...that's why I don't give my hard earned money to street beggars anymore, I know better, they're not going to go to the store for a turkey sandwich, they're going to the liquor store for some cheap booze.  Aside from the few that may be mentally ill, the others that want to walk the straight and narrow usually will find help along the way.



Homeless shelters are scary places and staying in them is asking for all sorts of trauma. The shelters here are just that, shelters. People can only be there at night. The rest of the day they are grappling with several choices. If they go to the job center to look for work, they are not foraging through dumpsters for food and they are only fed a dinner by the shelter. 

It is no bed and breakfast.

I'm sure that people against any sort of basic stipend will keep it from ever happening in the USA. The majority of US citizens need to see how other have it worse than they do. I am positive that many actually enjoy seeing certain people homeless. They're afraid to admit it, so they use other terms to support their reasons.

After all, it was not all that long ago that gays could be evicted from any housing, for no other reason than their being gay.


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## SeaBreeze

Shelters are scarier and more trauma than the streets??  I've seen a lot worse in the ghettos of NY, and I don't enjoy seeing anyone homeless.  Being fed dinner and a place to clean up and sleep at night is good temporarily while they seek work at the job centers.  If it was a bed and breakfast, they would have no incentive to seek a better life for themselves.


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## That Guy

Walk a mile in their shoes.


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## rkunsaw

The vast majority of homeless are in that situation because of choices they made. They don't deserve a free handout. In fact a free handout is the worse thing you can do for them. It enables them to continue the way they are.

There are some who get in bad situations because of a loss of job or other situation beyond their control. These people deserve a helping hand and we could afford to help them a lot more if we weren't wasting money and resources on the above.

I am glad to do what I can to help those who do their part, but those who refuse to work or quit the alcohol and drugs, I have no sympathy (or money) for.

Each one of us has had to make choices in life and we must take responsibility for the choices we make.


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## Anne

I agree, rkunsaw.  That's one reason I don't give to many charities anymore - from what we hear, it's the ones at the top who end up living quite nicely, while little of the money goes to the ones who really need it.  
If we know someone who needs help, we're glad to contribute in either money, food or whatever; but to just hand it over; you've no idea what it's used for.  

There are homeless here who live in the tunnels under the city, who prefer it that way...not unlike the hippies of yesterday, they have 'dropped out' because it's easier than trying to struggle with going to work every day. They can hit the homeless shelters on occasion, and panhandle to get through.

Of course, that is a small percentage of them, but they are definitely out there.  Shelling out more money isn't the answer.


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## cindy

SeaBreeze said:


> Well, from what I understand, there are homeless shelters that exist to give those people a place to stay until they can get on their feet.  They will also help them with finding employment when possible, or drug rehab.  The ones that insist on living in the streets, are the ones not willing to give up their drinking and drug habits...that's why I don't give my hard earned money to street beggars anymore, I know better, they're not going to go to the store for a turkey sandwich, they're going to the liquor store for some cheap booze.  Aside from the few that may be mentally ill, the others that want to walk the straight and narrow usually will find help along the way.



I won't give ANY money to street beggars owning our own business taught me that the a majority we did at one time give a little to went to the store for cigarettes or liquor, now not all do this, but too many do and money is too hard to come by.


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## TICA

But not all homeless people are content to take handouts and are truly struggling to even get through the day.  Sometimes a helping hand might be all that's needed to help them get on their feet again.  I've never been homeless but I have been on my own with two small children and less than $40 in my wallet and no job so although I was lucky enough to find work in the nick of time, don't assume that those who panhandle or live on the street are doing it because they want to.  A lot of them are just trying to survive.

Some are between a rock and a hard place.   No where to go, no one to turn to and no half decent clothes to even approach a potential employer.  And also, don't assume that they are all drunks or druggies and it isn't a preferred lifestyle for a lot of them.

We can't paint everyone with the same brush folks.  There are people out there doing whatever they can to get by.


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## SifuPhil

TICA said:


> ... We can't paint everyone with the same brush folks.  There are people out there doing whatever they can to get by.



Very true.

Another aspect to consider is that many of the homeless will _refuse_ the use of an available shelter or charitable organization, for reasons ranging from pride to distrust to bad previous experiences. I knew one homeless guy in NYC who told me he'd never go to the Salvation Army center again, because he had to listen to a "_spiel_" (I'm assuming he meant a religious service). 

Personally, if I were starving I'd be willing to listen to anything in trade for a meal.

Also there's the individuality thing going on ... many long-term homeless cannot adapt to the rules and regulations put forth by the free shelters. They feel trapped or fettered by The System and refuse to participate. Some also have an unofficial "record" of causing trouble in the shelters and are thus banned. 

Finally, I would think the shelters are pretty much full-up in this economy and probably have waiting lists.


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## Diwundrin

I've only had fleeting contact with the homeless, just passing them on the way to work, but they do seem to cover a wide range of types.  One I may have mentioned used to dress in floral patterned, home made pants, a suit jacket and wear a Sombrero! 

He 'lived' at and around Central for years.  He used to sleep on the trains. He was a lovely polite old fellow and the platform staff all knew him and used to sneak him into a spare, unbooked compartment of an overnight train for a good night's sleep, a shower, and free brekky and he'd be gone for a couple of days until he got another freebie ride back.  He was rattler rider I guess, but did it in 5 star style. 

 He was the only one ever got away with that trick that I heard of so I presume he had some links to staff from former days or something.

I was in gossiping with the switchboard girls one night when one got a call and yelled something like 'you have to be bloody joking!' and pulled the plug on the call.  She was outraged that it was someone calling to tell her  that he'd got a bed at the Matthew Talbot doss house  so would she tell 'Fred' he could have his usual seat on platform 1 for the night.  "Do they think we're running a bloody hotel for them or something??"  It was hilarious.  They had networking down pat.

Another regular was a very black man, Papuan perhaps, who was always quite well dressed and would nod and smile at us as we passed.  His 'bedroom' was a niche near the door we used so we saw him often.  More than once I saw the patrol cops bring him a cup of soup or coffee or something and sit on the ground with him for a chat.  Must have been 'history' there too.

One quite elderly man who'd turn up occasionally, used to paint all night.  He'd turn up with a piece of board, sometimes just cardboard, that he'd picked up from a skip, and prop it against a window under a light.  Then he'd bring his paints out of his bag and in the morning there would be a finished painting sitting there.  He just left them behind for whoever wanted them.  I know where one is. 

 A bloke I worked with came in all excited and said "he's painting a sailing ship!"  Rick went down before dawn and waited for him to finish it, slipped him 10 bucks and loaded it in his car to go over the new bar he was putting in.  He said the old fella didn't want to take the money!  He was just happy that someone wanted his painting.  That sure doesn't fit the stereotype of the homeless does it?

Maybe he wasn't homeless, just eccentric, we never saw him around during the day.  I had a look at the painting before we drove off for home and it wasn't the best I've ever seen but it was as good as most.  It was even on an unchipped piece of board. Bet Rick's still got it, he just loved it.

Still, that was all long ago now, the homeless aren't just drunks and eccentrics these days I guess.


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## SeaBreeze

cindy said:


> I won't give ANY money to street beggars owning our own business taught me that the a majority we did at one time give a little to went to the store for cigarettes or liquor, now not all do this, but too many do and money is too hard to come by.



This guy on the street hit me up for money to ride the bus, this was MANY years ago, when I was younger.  Anyhoo, I took a quarter out of my pant's pocket and gave it to him.  Instead of saying thanks, this joker got angry, put on his mad face, and raised his voice telling me that that was nothing, that ain't gonna get him where he needs to go.  I told him, well get a f*#king job then buddy!!! We both walked away pi$$ed, only I was out a quarter that I had *worked *for.   That's only *one *incident that whittled away at my sharing and caring nature toward panhandlers.  I'm very kind and probably have too much empathy for others, but my momma didn't raise no fool! :love_heart:


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## SeaBreeze

TICA said:


> But not all homeless people are content to take handouts and are truly struggling to even get through the day.  Sometimes a helping hand might be all that's needed to help them get on their feet again.
> We can't paint everyone with the same brush folks.  There are people out there doing whatever they can to get by.



I don't paint everyone with the same brush at all, and I've been through some hard times myself in the past also.  But...the people you're mentioning are the minority, not the majority.  Give those people the $2800 a month to get on their feet, not all of the others that refuse to help themselves and are set to live off of the generosity of others for the rest of their lives.

Too many stories also about these homeless people who stand on street corners with cardboard signs begging for money...not food, not clothes, but cash $$$.  Some of them make more than I brought home in a full forty hour workweek with a 10 hour weekend over-time shift!!  Is it going to buy clothes to seek employment, or shop at the supermarket for food for the week...no, they go to McDonalds, the liquor store and their connection...then they crash at a buddy's house and do it all over again the next day.


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## rkunsaw

We can't paint everyone with the same brush folks.  There are people out there doing whatever they can to get by. 				

I don't think anyone is trying to paint them all the same. My post and others have clearly stated the difference.


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## That Guy




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## cindy

cindy said:


> I won't give ANY money to rs owning our own business taught me that the a majority we did at one time give a little to went to the store for cigarettes or liquor, now not all do this, but too many do and money is too hard to come by.



Your so right, we deal with homeless shelters and when people did come by and say Ï need some money for gas to get here or ther".....and if y


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## cindy

Yes there are shelters for those that need it, and all too often they use any money they may beg from people to buy liquor or cigarettes, not food for sure.  I agree with RKunsaw, it's the worse thing you could do, give them money..and in most cases if you offered to buy them a meal. they would say No Thank you ..


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## Warrigal

Australia is among the most wealthy countries in the world if you average it out but the income levels are very uneven. A lot of people are doing it tough.

We don't have a food stamp system but I've just watched a news item that talked about  food banks. Companies donate food to the food bank which distributes the food to approved charities like the Salvation Army. The charities give it away to people who need but are reporting that they often have to turn people away because demand is rising and the food runs out more quickly. They also report that more recipients are working people whose income is just not enough to make ends meet.

If this is going on in a very rich country, what must it be like in the poor ones ?


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## Pappy

Maybe we all need this guy to ride by our house. I've got my butterfly net ready.....


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## Diwundrin

Hey, I know him!!  That's 'Buck!'


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## TICA

rkunsaw said:


> We can't paint everyone with the same brush folks.  There are people out there doing whatever they can to get by.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to paint them all the same. My post and others have clearly stated the difference.



Didn't mean to offend anyone rkunsaw.  :sorry:

I agree that there are some people who just don't want to work or try and improve their lives when its so easy to take handouts in whatever form is available.   I also know there are those who have no choice and do need some help.   I donate something to the food bank every time I go to the grocery store - it might only be a bag of rice or oatmeal, but my heart goes out to those who find themselves in a position where they can't feed their families for whatever reason.


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## That Guy




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## Anne

That Guy said:


>




There...that is heartbreaking.  That is a cause where I'll happily donate.


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## terra

In Australia, we are entitled to the "aged pension" from the age of 65, subject to a means test to rule out those with substantial income and assets such as properties.

A married couple receive $623 each per fortnight (that's a combined total of $1246) whilst a single person receives $827 per fortnight.  There is no income tax payable on this figure because it falls below the annual earnings threshhold figure of $18,000. 

 There are also other benefits such as free drivers licence, car registration in some states as well as discounts on gas, electricity and council rates.
I don't feel guilty about receiving this pension because I worked continuously for 45 years since leaving school at the age of 15.  I paid hefty income tax for that working part of my life which obviously contributed to others aged pensions during that time.

How do these pension rates stack up against the USA rates ?


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## SifuPhil

terra said:


> ... How do these pension rates stack up against the USA rates ?



Here, our Social Security is determined by how much we made during our working years.

As a VERY rough estimate (from memory), if I were to collect my benefits at the following ages I could expect to collect these amounts every *month* - 

*Retire at 62 years old - $750/mn
*Retire at 66 & 8 months - $1000/mn
*Retire at 70 years old - $1300/mn

We don't get any fuel, electric or other subsidies, unless you count special local programs which you have to jump through hoops to both apply for and receive, and even those are closed many times because of lack of funding. We don't get any special consideration for licenses or registrations that I know of, either.


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## Diwundrin

Doubt anyone could survive on that here! 

 ... and no free hospital and health care??  'Mindblown' covers my reaction to that.

Sorry, but maybe it's time the US honchos started rethinking sorting out the rest of the World's 'rights' and used some of that 'defense' money to do a bit of a domestic tidy up for their own citizens.  Something wrong with the system dya think??

No wonder the world and his mother are heading here in leaky boats! .... then again, maybe that's the problem, too many  for the system to cope with the load?  Took in too many of the 'poor and huddled masses' for the taxpaying citizens to support?   .... sorry, just envisioning our future heading down that same path, I'm all depressed now.... siiiiigh.


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## SifuPhil

Definitely something wrong with the system, but to suggest logical solutions like cutting down on the "imports" is tantamount to treason here. Voicing an opinion that we should close our borders for a while, at least until we can clean up the mess, is seen as being unpatriotic and un-American, and the human and social-rights groups will descend upon you with their lawyers like a hungry swarm of locust. 

So, we're on a runaway train - it's still moving relatively slowly enough that we can jump off, but with every passing day the train picks up speed and the end of the track draws nearer. Soon we'll be moving too quickly to jump and will only be able to sit in our comfy seats and watch in horror as the End comes into view ... 

"_Well, Phil, YOU or your parents or your parent's parents were "imports", too! How DARE you say we should close our borders to all these poor, underprivileged people seeking asylum!_"

Yeah, well, the difference is that *my* parent's parents worked hard every day of their lives here, and so did my *parents*, and so do* I*. I don't make my money by selling deadly drugs to kids or bopping some old lady over the head, I don't sit around waiting for the government dole and I make an effort to be a good citizen. 

But now I'm called an elitist. 

We have annual parades in many of our towns - Puerto Rican Pride parade, Black Pride parade, Gay Pride parade ... but no White Pride parade, no "My Ancestors Came To America and Helped To Make It Great" parades ... that's called "racist". It doesn't fit-in with the in-vogue revisionist history.

*shrug*

I don't have a whole lot of years left on this planet. Hopefully, if there IS something after this life, whoever is responsible for planning these things will come out with Life-After-Death 2.0, without all the bugs and crashes. Otherwise I'm going to be one very p*ssed-off ghost.


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## Diwundrin

> Definitely something wrong with the system, but to suggest logical  solutions like cutting down on the "imports" is tantamount to treason  here. Voicing an opinion that we should close our borders for a while,  at least until we can clean up the mess, is seen as being unpatriotic  and un-American, and the human and social-rights groups will descend  upon you with their lawyers like a hungry swarm of locust.




for link to that definition see http:Warrigal.....  :rofl:

The rest of it, couldn't have put it better,  same applies here now.   
Racist refers to everything anyone else doesn't like mentioned.  If you prefer dogs you're a cat racist.
... as I said, I see our future looming.


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## MercyL

Warrigal said:


> Australia is among the most wealthy countries in the world if you average it out but the income levels are very uneven. A lot of people are doing it tough.
> 
> We don't have a food stamp system but I've just watched a news item that talked about  food banks. Companies donate food to the food bank which distributes the food to approved charities like the Salvation Army. The charities give it away to people who need but are reporting that they often have to turn people away because demand is rising and the food runs out more quickly. They also report that more recipients are working people whose income is just not enough to make ends meet.
> 
> If this is going on in a very rich country, what must it be like in the poor ones ?



Does Australia provide food banks instead of having a food stamp program? If so, are all of the food banks associate with religious institutions, or are there a few secular food banks around?

I ask because I want to hear how other countries deal with poverty from those who live in them and not from news media, political parties, or organizations run by wealthy people and their corporations.

How doe Australia handle the homeless and the jobless?


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