# Immigrant caravan



## Traveler (May 1, 2018)

As some of you may be aware, I live in San Ysidro, CA. Right on the Mexican/U.S. border and I see and hear things that others may not know about..

There has been a large, 1,000 plus, caravan of Central Americans, traveling north through Mexico on their way to the U.S. 
Most of them have now arrived in Tijuana.  Their main goal is to convince the American authorities that they are "in danger" in their home countries, and thus seek refugee status.

Homeland security/I.C.E./border patrol is on high alert. small groups (8-12) have been picked up on the U.S. side of the border. Those who are 1st time detainees are charged with a misdemeanor and quickly deported back to Mexico. Those who have been previously arrested for illegally entering the U.S. are charged with a felony and held until trial. 

There are several interesting aspects to this, and other such groups. First is that the Mexican government makes no attempt to hinder their northward movement and often distributes maps etc. The Mexican government is fully aware that these people are in Mexico illegally. You might say the Mexican government wants to shove them along in order to avoid dealing with them. And to also pass on their problems to the U.S.

Secondly, there are numerous Hispanic pro-immigrant groups who assist those who want to enter America. Hispanic lawyers from the U.S., shuttle back and forth across the border and give lectures on how to cheat our system. Those lawyers, even as I write this, are teaching the immigrants what to say to the U.S. authorities. They teach them that is will do no good to claim poverty, but instead teach them how to claim that they are "in danger" and thus claim asylum. Asylum, in case you do not know it, gives immediate legal entry into the U.S.

There is literally no limit on how many people want to live in America where they will be given welfare assistance, such as food stamps and housing allowances. We are NOT talking about a few hundred people. We are talking about tens of millions of people actively, legally and illegally, trying to get into the U.S.


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## Don M. (May 1, 2018)

The present day U.S. is a nation of "immigrants".  I'm sure the Native American Indians never realized what the future held for them when they welcomed the ships arriving from Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries, but a similar "transition" is beginning today...especially in our SouthWestern States.  Already, in California, Hispanics are the largest ethnic group, and that number is growing.  Anyone who is concerned about this change in demographics in our SW states should do some research on the Latino movements called "La Raza", "MEChA", and the area they call "Aztlan"....that plan appears to be moving forward nicely.  

There have been some suggestions that California (increasingly known as Mexifornia) should become a separate nation....and that movement way well come to pass, along with Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. 

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html


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## Traveler (May 1, 2018)

Don M. said:


> The present day U.S. is a nation of "immigrants".  I'm sure the Native American Indians never realized what the future held for them when they welcomed the ships arriving from Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries, but a similar "transition" is beginning today...especially in our SouthWestern States.  Already, in California, Hispanics are the largest ethnic group, and that number is growing.  Anyone who is concerned about this change in demographics in our SW states should do some research on the Latino movements called "La Raza", "MEChA", and the area they call "Aztlan"....that plan appears to be moving forward nicely.
> 
> There have been some suggestions that California (increasingly known as Mexifornia) should become a separate nation....and that movement way well come to pass, along with Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.
> 
> http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html




Interesting article. They sound like the lunatic fringe to me. That article gives credibility what I have been saying all along. Many Hispanics haven't the slightest intention of becoming Americans. The article would also explain why, during demonstrations, the Mexican flag is carried by so many. 

It does not surprise me one bit that Hispanics, communists, socialists (and fellow travelers) and other America haters are in bed together. Proof of that is demonstrated in the many so-called sanctuary cities in California. 

If those folks think that they can *take *any portion of the U.S., then they are going to have a real shock.

As to any discussion of being a nation of immigrants, that is certainly true. *However*, all of those people from around the world who came to America wanted to be American citizens because they realized that America offered an opportunity to: live free, get excellent schooling, be gainfully employed, and own a decent home, among many other advantages. America welcomed those people and most of them are now part and parcel of America. 

As one example of hundreds, the Irish had a rough go of it for a few years BUT in the end, an Irish American, J.F.K., became President Of The United States. 

Any group that does not play buy the rule of law, will be severely dealt with.


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Any group that does not play buy the rule of law, will be severely dealt with.


Are you sure about that? Our laws in this country are a mess. Case in point is what you said in your opening post:



			
				Traveler said:
			
		

> Hispanic lawyers from the U.S., shuttle back and forth across the border and give lectures on how to cheat our system. Those lawyers are teaching the immigrants what to say...that it will do no good to claim poverty, but instead teach them how to claim that they are "in danger" and thus claim asylum. Asylum, in case you do not know, gives immediate legal entry into the U.S...they will be given welfare assistance, such as food stamps and housing allowances. We are NOT talking about a few hundred people. We are talking about tens of millions of people actively, legally and illegally, trying to get into the U.S.



Also, California's politicians in northern CA are not playing by the rule of law. Sanctuary cities for one. Protecting immigrants from  ICE (immigration customs enforcement) as they ignore their warnings and threats to withhold government funds for another.


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## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Can’t you close the blinds or curtains? :shrug:


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## dpwspringer (May 2, 2018)

It's a mess.


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## Gary O' (May 2, 2018)

It's nigh unto impossible to stem the tide of those seeking freedom

History has proven that

Coloring it another way is nothing but fallacy, conjecture

'tens of millions'......nada


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

The last few phone calls that my wife has had with a girlfriend who lives in Anaheim, California, the girlfriend has complained about all the Mexicans that have moved into her area. She told her that, if she doesn't get home early enough from somewhere, it's extremely hard for her to find a parking space. 

When wife and I lived in Southern California, we knew there were many Mexican's living and working there, but it didn't bother us. Heck, I learned the Spanish I know from working around these Mexican's at manufacturing companies. 

Actually, years ago, it wasn't the Mexican immigration that was the problem, it was the Vietnamese immigration that was. I worked for one company where the Vice President put out a memo telling people (not actually designating Vietnamese) to stop using his microwave by his office. All of the employee's knew that he was talking about the Vietnamese, because the area smelled heavily of their fish and rice lunches. A few would use his microwave, outside of his office, because the microwaves in the Break Room were all being used. I also heard more than one American employee complain about the Vietnamese speaking their language at work. 

  If, by chance, one of these caravan Mexican's does do a crime, like murder, just what will the U.S. do? I mean, U.S. Authorities let that person into the U.S..


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## Aunt Bea (May 2, 2018)

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 01 - "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards *one* another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Article 14 - "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution. This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the *United Nations*."

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/


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## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights
> 
> Article 01 - "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards *one* another in a spirit of brotherhood."
> 
> ...



Yes indeed! :torch:

:waiting:


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights
> 
> Article 01 - "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards *one* another in a spirit of brotherhood."
> 
> ...



Well, like some on here, don’t totally agree.

How does your reply go along with an illegal committing murder in the U.S.? Or, is that something that all American’s should just ignore?

Many feel that to many things, like crime, has happened here to go along completely with those Rights and Freedoms.

They want to escape the criminal element of their country, like the MS13 gangs, well, hate to break the news to them, but we have MS13 gangs here in the U.S. and other crime just like in their countries!


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Can’t you close the blinds or curtains? :shrug:



I was never very good at sticking my head in the sand and ignoring reality.



Gary O' said:


> It's nigh unto impossible to stem the tide of those seeking freedom
> 
> History has proven that
> 
> ...



There are ALREADY an estimated 10,000,000 illegals in the U.S. !   Fallacy ? Conjecture ? No ! Reality !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Aunt Bea said:


> United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights
> 
> Article 01 - "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards *one* another in a spirit of brotherhood."
> 
> ...


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I was never very good at sticking my head in the sand and ignoring reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Thomas Jefferson "The first consideration in immigration is the welfare of the receiving nation...the influx of a large number of new immigrants unaccustomed to the gov't of a free society could be detrimental to that society. Immigration therefore must be approached carefully and cautiously."


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## Aunt Bea (May 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *Nice sounding words, Aunt Bea. Are you actually suggesting that the U.S. accept EVERYONE ? Tear down the wall and post signs, Come One, Come All? *



We did post a sign.


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Ronald Reagan said, 

_"A Nation that cannot control 
it's borders is not a Nation__"_


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Ronald Reagan said, "A Nation that cannot control it's borders is not a Nation"



Way to go, Lara!! :encouragement:


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> We did post a sign.




No where in that plaque does it say, "UNLIMITED NUMBERS OF PEOPLE" OR " WELCOME ILLEGAL ALIENS"


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

Racism is a broad-brush accusation & position. There is not one thing wrong in preferring ones own people. 

There are laws in place regarding immigration , I suggest we uphold them, and others be required to obey them. No matter their , race, creed, color, religion, or country of origin.


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> We did post a sign.



Again, Aunt Bea, from everything that has happened in this country (crime), concerning illegals and immigration, a lot of people don't even care what this says. 
That might be bad, but I don't blame them.


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Ronald Reagan said,
> 
> _"A Nation that cannot control
> it's borders is not a Nation__"_




Truer words were never spoken.


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## WhatInThe (May 2, 2018)

Too many issues here but I recently heard someone mention during a debate on this that people do things like lock doors and put passwords on computers for a reason. Wouldn't a country enforcing immigration law/procedure and putting barriers on it's borders be doing the same thing?


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> Racism is a broad-brush accusation & position. There is not one thing wrong in preferring ones own people.
> 
> There are laws in place regarding immigration , I suggest we uphold them, and others be required to obey them. No matter their , race, creed, color, religion, or country of origin.



This, in red above, is why there are blacks that only want to live in a black-only community. There are Vietnamese that feel the same way. There are those from India that will ask on Relocation forums if there is a large Indian population and/or restaurants in the area they are thinking about moving to. Same goes for other races, including some whites. I say "some" because there are those whites who will not live in an area that is not diverse in demographics.


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

I think we can all agree that immigrants are welcome in our country if they come with a clean history, come responsibly, and with a heart to become fully American, learning the language, flying only the American flag, etc. 

The only way we can make sure of that is to take our time vetting each one. Not blindly herding them in masses and then waiting until a crime has already been committed before jailing them or sending them back.


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## Sunny (May 2, 2018)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.26db34c3fa12

Hatred and fear of immigrants is a long-standing disease in this country.


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> I think we can all agree that immigrants are welcome in our country if they come with a clean history, come responsibly, and with a heart to become fully American, learning the language, flying only the American flag, etc.
> 
> The only way we can make sure of that is to take our time vetting each one. Not blindly herding them in masses and then waiting until a crime is has already been committed before jailing them or sending them back.



Two BIG "thumbs up" for you!!


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.26db34c3fa12
> 
> Hatred and fear of immigrants is a long-standing disease in this country.



It's not a disease, it's just being SAFE!! Don't we want America to be safe? Are we currently doing that???


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

I ask everyone to think about invited guests into your home. How would you feel if those guests went to your fridge and helped themselves without asking permission ? I strongly suspect that they would not be invited into your home anytime soon.

Legal immigrants are guests. Illegal aliens are invaders of your home.


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Hatred and fear of immigrants is a long-standing disease *IN THIS COUNTRY.*


I don't see any "Hatred" in this thread. In the country as a whole? Sure, there will always be haters because some people are just mean...*IN EVERY COUNTRY*.

But, yes, many Americans have "Fear". Fearful of the mass immigration happening where ILLEGAL immigrants are being told to "seek asylum" (with more taxpayer's  benefits than our legal citizens get and using more resources than we have) and without time to be properly and throughly checked for criminal history at the border before entry. 

And a fear of them not fully becoming an American with a heart for our country and a will to be a productive citizen. We just need to be careful and take our time at the borders.


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## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> No where in that plaque does it say, "UNLIMITED NUMBERS OF PEOPLE" OR " WELCOME ILLEGAL ALIENS"




https://www.americanimmigrationcoun...todays-immigration-laws-created-a-new-reality


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

WhatInThe said:


> Too many issues here but I recently heard someone mention during a debate on this that people do things like lock doors and put passwords on computers for a reason. Wouldn't a country enforcing immigration law/procedure and putting barriers on it's borders be doing the same thing?




 Yes, and they should....would you let undesirables into your home ? Would you allow just anyone to walk in ? Without even asking who & what they are? What their intentions are ? Do they intend to contribute ? Or just take? Can they prove their ability to contribute ?


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## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> Yes, and they should....would you let undesirables into your home ? Would you allow just anyone to walk in ? Without even asking who & what they are? What their intentions are ? Do they intend to contribute ? Or just take? Can they prove their ability to contribute ?



An individual has personal ownership of his home-  no one has personal ownership of this country.


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> I think we can all agree that immigrants are welcome in our country if they come with a clean history, come responsibly, and with a heart to become fully American, learning the language, flying only the American flag, etc.
> 
> The only way we can make sure of that is to take our time vetting each one. Not blindly herding them in masses and then waiting until a crime is has already been committed before jailing them or sending them back.



 Absolutely !...


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> An individual has personal ownership of his home-  no one has personal ownership of this country.




 Exactly right...and we should collectively lock the door. We collectively elected officials to uphold our laws & we should demand that they do. 

If an immigrant desires to enter?..we have a system in place to do exactly that, follow the system. Nothing more...nothing less.


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## Shalimar (May 2, 2018)

I have a neighbour who has dual citizenship, she flies both the American and Canadian flags. No one takes exception to that.


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

Speaking of this caravan...It showed them on the news arriving at the border in those large red tourist type buses . Who paid for those buses ? the fuel ? Could it be that there is an organization a-foot that just wants to get them through Mexico? Or perhaps one that wants to bring them here ? for a purpose ?. An organization with an agenda perhaps ?


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## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> An individual has personal ownership of his home-  no one has personal ownership of this country.


That was my understanding also. I didn’t know immigrants were walking into peoples homes and stealing food. 



Shalimar said:


> I have a neighbour who has dual citizenship, she flies both the American and Canadian flags. No one takes exception to that.




My parents have dual citizenship and except for the past year , they have travelled down south for the past 30 plus years for 6 months out of the year. They don’t however raid anyone else’s fridge as far as I know.


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I have a neighbour who has dual citizenship, she flies both the American and Canadian flags. No one takes exception to that.


 There are no laws against it but "the US does not recognize dual citizenship".

Theodore Roosevelt takes exception to dual citizenship:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. *But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”*


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> Speaking of this caravan...It showed them on the news arriving at the border in those large red tourist type buses . Who paid for those buses ? the fuel ? Could it be that there is an organization a-foot that just wants to get them through Mexico? Or perhaps one that wants to bring them here ? for a purpose ?. An organization with an agenda perhaps ?




*Oh, there is an agenda. No  doubt about that. There are individuals, and groups of people, who wish to cause harm to the United States. Start by looking at those who set up sanctuary cities and then ask yourselves , why ? 

Hint: it has absolutely nothing to do with concern for the immigrants.*


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> There are no laws against it but "the US does not recognize dual citizenship".
> 
> Theodore Roosevelt takes exception to dual citizenship:
> 
> “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. *But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”*




*Amen to that.

I hope EVERYONE has read the link in post #2.  It will give you a frightening insight.
*


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## Knight (May 2, 2018)

Using the inscription at the base of the statue of liberty to show that immigratns are welcome works if you limit your understanding. 




The inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty reads: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore


The U.S. government began a process of welcoming. Illegals flooding into America ARE NOT following that process. 


In honor of the statute's intent to welcome immigrants, the U.S. government opened an immigration office on nearby Ellis Island in 1892. Between 1892 and 1954, Lady Liberty welcomed millions of immigrants who arrived at Ellis Island before continuing their journey into the United States.


https://www.reference.com/art-literature/written-bottom-statue-liberty-289345c7c12bcc74#


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## AZ Jim (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Ronald Reagan said,
> 
> _"A Nation that cannot control
> it's borders is not a Nation__"_


Reagan in 1986 granted amnesty to 3 Million illegals!!!


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> An individual has personal ownership of his home-  no one has personal ownership of this country.


My country is my home. Every law-abiding citizen and every productive citizen in our society, deserves the right to protect their home/country.


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## Shalimar (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> There are no laws against it but "the US does not recognize dual citizenship".
> 
> Theodore Roosevelt takes exception to dual citizenship:
> 
> “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. *But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”*


Each country is entitled to view dual citizenship as it wishes. Here, in the Land Of The Maple Leaf, we embrace a different perspective. It works for us. As one third of us are French Canadian, we have two official languages. Les Québécois first settled here in the sixteenth century. In many schools, First Nation languages are also available as electives.


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

AZ Jim said:


> Reagan in 1986 granted amnesty to 3 Million illegals!!!




Ronald Reagan did not make many mistakes, but that one was a doozie.


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## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Ok I read the link in post #2. 

How is anyone going to differentiate between those who are considered ‘bad’ folks with ill intentions and those others who don’t? Is it fair to paint them ALL  with the same brush strokes?


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## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> How is anyone going to differentiate between those who are considered ‘bad’ folks with ill intentions and those others who don’t? Is it fair to paint them ALL  with the same brush strokes?


Criminal background checks are done on all...or at least should be done.


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Each country is entitled to view dual citizenship as it wishes. Here, in the Land Of The Maple Leaf, we embrace a different perspective. It works for us.




Canada does not face anything even close to the problems America faces. Sorry, but any comparison does not work.


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## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

Knight said:


> Using the inscription at the base of the statue of liberty to show that immigratns are welcome works if you limit your understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, that's not the reason Ellis Island was opened.
Read up on Castle Garden.


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Each country is entitled to view dual citizenship as it wishes. Here, in the Land Of The Maple Leaf, we embrace a different perspective. It works for us. As one third of us are French Canadian, we have two official languages. Les Québécois first settled here in the sixteenth century. In many schools, First Nation languages are also available as electives.




   Well then....you run your railroad & we'll run ours.


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok I read the link in post #2.
> 
> How is anyone going to differentiate between those who are considered ‘bad’ folks with ill intentions and those others who don’t? Is it fair to paint them ALL  with the same brush strokes?




No need to put BAD in quotes. We all know, or at least we SHOULD know, that organized criminal gangs need to be kept out. If anyone can't understand that, then we have a much more serious problem.


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## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok I read the link in post #2.
> 
> How is anyone going to differentiate between those who are considered ‘bad’ folks with ill intentions and those others who don’t? Is it fair to paint them ALL  with the same brush strokes?



It has nothing to do with bad folks with ill intentions.  If you read all the gripes about immigrants/immigration, they're only talking about one specific group.  Discrimination against one group because they 'look different.'  And it's exactly the same as the way another group was herded up into camps during WW 2.  
I don't know why they can't be honest and admit they don't like 'Hispanics' and don't want 'them' around.  They probably have the same viewpoint toward Hispanics whose families have been here for generations, but are just using 'immigration' as an excuse.


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

Why is it that it seems so many seem to hate the way we do things....and yet so many want to come here ? Then when they do [get] here they want to change the way we do things? 

Why don't they all just stay home, and do things their way...in their country?

And perhaps the worst are those that do stay wherever the hell they are....but still insist in telling us what to do / what we should do? 

I have heard that in some places we are referred to as the ugly Americans....gee I wonder why ?


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok I read the link in post #2.
> 
> How is anyone going to differentiate between those who are considered ‘bad’ folks with ill intentions and those others who don’t? Is it fair to paint them ALL  with the same brush strokes?



Actually, the same “thinking” was done with the Vietnamese Boat People who came to Southern California and set up Little Saigon in Garden Grove. All were from Vietnam, but nobody knew if any were Communist from the North
or Viet Cong. In fact, before the Boat People came over, there were no Vietnamese gangs.


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## rgp (May 2, 2018)

The other day a friend remarked that a 'new' influx of folks coming now from the Philippines , and they too are coming with drug connections /gang affiliations . 

Could it be because Duterte shoots them ? Maybe he's on to something?


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Some people will never get it. One trick pony. Play the race card.  All they know how to do is call people names. Nothing to do with LOOKS or RACE.  Nothing at all.


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## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Heck, I remember some years ago, when the “illegal” immigration was being discussed in So. California (Drivers Licenses and government benefits being approved for illegals) and some Mexican high school students there were marching, carrying the Mexican flag and holding signs that read “Proud To Be Illegal”. The Mexican Consulate or Embassy told them to stop intimidating the American’s. They just kept marching and intimidating! They didn’t care.

Anyone remember this?


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## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Heck, I remember some years ago, when the “illegal” immigration was being discussed in So. California (Drivers Licenses and government benefits being approved for illegals) and some Mexican high school students there were marching, carrying the Mexican flag and holding signs that read “Proud To Be Illegal”. The Mexican Consulate or Embassy told them to stop intimidating the American’s. They just kept marching and intimidating! They didn’t care.
> 
> Anyone remember this?




Last year I went to California Dept Motor Vehicles to get my license shortly after it became "legal" to give licenses to illegals. The line was out the door, down the block and stretched for about 200 yards. 

Oh, by the way, they also got voter registration cards at the same time. 

To those who advocate allowing MORE illegals into the United States, do you have even the SLIGHTEST idea what would have happened to me if I had not kept up my visa while living in the Philippines ? I would STILL be in their special immigration prison. Only one way to get out of that hell hole. PAY $20,000 -$50,000 in bribe money. There are Americans, Brits, Canadians and Aussies who have been locked away for a dozen years.


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## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Criminal background checks are done on all...or at least should be done.


Seems fair enough. So shouldn’t you all be upset with your government not the people trying to get into the country? It seems there is more anger at the immigrants than the process but perhaps I’m misunderstanding :shrug:



Traveler said:


> No need to put BAD in quotes. We all know, or at least we SHOULD know, that organized criminal gangs need to be kept out. If anyone can't understand that, then we have a much more serious problem.



No need to put BAD in quotes? 
According to the topic of this thread, it appears I should. Not too many people like organized gang criminals but will background checks be sufficient enough? The airports do background checks and it doesn’t always catch these types as we are all aware from evidence of the 911 disaster. If it’s THAT easy to understand and recognize, why is there still such a problem then?



JaniceM said:


> It has nothing to do with bad folks with ill intentions.  If you read all the gripes about immigrants/immigration, they're only talking about one specific group.  Discrimination against one group because they 'look different.'  And it's exactly the same as the way another group was herded up into camps during WW 2.
> I don't know why they can't be honest and admit they don't like 'Hispanics' and don't want 'them' around.  They probably have the same viewpoint toward Hispanics whose families have been here for generations, but are just using 'immigration' as an excuse.



Yes! That’s what it looks and reads like in this thread and anyone who questions this get dismissed as ‘one trick ponies.!’
That makes no sense whatsoever but hatred never did make sense to me, no matter how well disguised.



ClassicRockr said:


> Actually, the same “thinking” was done with the Vietnamese Boat People who came to Southern California and set up Little Saigon in Garden Grove. All were from Vietnam, but nobody knew if any were Communist from the North
> or Viet Cong. In fact, before the Boat People came over, there were no Vietnamese gangs.



Boat people? 
How do you know there were no Vietnamese gangs?
Have you studied this? What are your credentials?


----------



## Shalimar (May 2, 2018)

Time was, boatloads of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler’s Germany were turned away from both our countries. Apparently, sanctuary from hatred and violence  did not apply to them.


----------



## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Time was, boatloads of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler’s Germany were turned away from both our countries. Apparently, sanctuary from hatred and violence  did not apply to them.




Yep! I just wanted to ask the question for obvious reasons.
Its shameful ( for me, personally. Just my opinion ,no more or less important  )


----------



## Lara (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Lara: Criminal background checks are done on all...or at least should be done.
> 
> Keesha: Seems fair enough. So shouldn’t you all be upset with your government not the people trying to get into the country? It seems there is more anger at the immigrants than the process but perhaps I’m misunderstanding :shrug:


Oh, there is plenty of anger with the government and in many ways it's their fault, and mostly their fault,  but when it comes to the republicans vs democrats, conservatives vs liberals, etc...politics is forbidden in SF. So we'll have to let that one go for now.

Regarding how people feel about the immigrants personally, many are seen on TV sneaking into the US illegally via climbing walls, underground tunnels, truckloads crossing the border, etc. Many are drug traffickers. And once they get in, some never try to get US citizenship, some commit crimes...all while taking advantage of America's resources for free. They make a bad name for the honest immigrants trying to legally enter the US. 

The government is the ultimate one responsible for protecting our borders but we have a country  with a broken system of "checks & balances" that is keeping our leader from moving forward with his plan as fast as he'd like to.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Seems fair enough. So shouldn’t you all be upset with your government not the people trying to get into the country? It seems there is more anger at the immigrants than the process but perhaps I’m misunderstanding :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, I'm a Navy Vietnam Era Veteran and was off of the coast of Da Nang in a Destroyer Escort Group in 1969. We used our 5" guns to destroy NVA and Viet Cong military areas and "plane guarded" for the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk Aircraft Carrier. When it sent fighter jets out, and when they came back from bombing missions, we had to be "at the ready" in case something happened to one after taking off or before landing on the Carrier. 

As far as my knowledge about the "Boat People", I was living in Southern California when they showed up on the shores. The story and concerns about them made big headlines in the Orange County Register newspaper. It was documented that the Vietnamese gangs, in Southern California/Garden Grove, started after the Boat People arrived around 1979 or so. 

How is that for my "qualifications" on the subject?


----------



## Don M. (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Thomas Jefferson "The first consideration in immigration is the welfare of the receiving nation...the influx of a large number of new immigrants unaccustomed to the gov't of a free society could be detrimental to that society. Immigration therefore must be approached carefully and cautiously."
> 
> That's Right!  If a person wants to move to a new nation today, they should have the responsibility to learn the new language and customs, and make every effort to "fit in"....otherwise, everyone would be better off if they stayed where they are.  My old Grandparents entered the U.S. through Ellis Island in the early 1900's, and they made every attempt to become productive members of their New Nation.


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Seems fair enough. So shouldn’t you all be upset with your government not the people trying to get into the country? It seems there is more anger at the immigrants than the process but perhaps I’m misunderstanding :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I kinda wonder if individuals who make remarks like the one you quoted have had any personal experience at all with the groups they're so much against.  In some cases, it sounds downright paranoid.
The numerous Vietnamese 'Boat people' that I knew "back in the day" were good people, decent human beings-  not criminals, not in gangs, and didn't hole up in their own communities like the one the poster mentioned.  They blended on in with everybody else.  
However, it's probably that attitude of suspicion and dislike for 'outsiders' that _causes _​many immigrants to avoid trying to assimilate and stay within the safety of their own communities.  

Something else came to mind after I logged off:  individuals express that immigration is a matter of law&order- that immigrants are coming here 'illegally' and are 'breaking the law'-  while some of those states spent 15+ years violating the Supreme Court decision on the _Brown_ case;  one reference says public schools in North Carolina didn't abide by that ruling a/k/a law until the end of 1970, and another said it was even later.  And yet there are some who claim none of this has anything to do with racism!


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> First, I'm a Navy Vietnam Era Veteran and was off of the coast of Da Nang in a Destroyer Escort Group in 1968. We used our 5" guns to destroy NVA and Viet Cong military areas and "plane guarded" for the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk Aircraft Carrier. When it sent fighter jets out, and when they came back from bombing missions, we had to be "at the ready" in case something happened to one after taking off or before landing on the Carrier.
> 
> As far as my knowledge about the "Boat People", I was living in Southern California when they showed up on the shores. The story and concerns about them made big headlines in the Orange County Register newspaper. It was documented that the Vietnamese gangs, in Southern California/Garden Grove, started after the Boat People arrived around 1979 or so.
> 
> How is that for my "qualifications" on the subject?



I was there in 1976.  Maybe by the time you showed up, some had got a taste of what 'Americans' thought of them.  
And my brother, a Vietnam veteran who was actually in Danang in 1967-1968, fortunately never shared your attitude.


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

rgp said:


> *Why is it that it seems so many seem to hate the way we do things....and yet so many want to come here ? Then when they do [get] here they want to change the way we do things?
> *
> Why don't they all just stay home, and do things their way...in their country?
> 
> ...



Gotta say I agree with that.  
Racism makes me sick to my stomach, but an additional 'irk' is individuals who come to the U.S. and start disrespecting America and Americans.


----------



## helenbacque (May 2, 2018)

We are a nation of laws and anyone immigrating should do so according to the current laws regarding immigration.  Don't like the law?  Work to change it but until change, obey it.  

For everyone ... if your heart is in another country, your body needs to be there as well.  Don't enjoy the benefits of living in this country if your allegiance is elsewhere.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> I kinda wonder if individuals who make remarks like the one you quoted have had any personal experience at all with the groups they're so much against.  In some cases, it sounds downright paranoid.
> The numerous Vietnamese 'Boat people' that I knew "back in the day" were good people, decent human beings-  not criminals, not in gangs, and didn't hole up in their own communities like the one the poster mentioned.  They blended on in with everybody else.
> However, it's probably that attitude of suspicion and dislike for 'outsiders' that _causes _​many immigrants to avoid trying to assimilate and stay within the safety of their own communities.
> 
> Something else came to mind after I logged off:  individuals express that immigration is a matter of law&order- that immigrants are coming here 'illegally' and are 'breaking the law'-  while some of those states spent 15+ years violating the Supreme Court decision on the _Brown_ case;  one reference says public schools in North Carolina didn't abide by that ruling a/k/a law until the end of 1970, and another said it was even later.  And yet there are some who claim none of this has anything to do with racism!



FYI, the Boat People settled into what is, and has been, known as Little Saigon in Garden Grove, California. All the shops, stores and restaurants are run, at least when I lived there, by the Vietnamese community of Little Saigon. Another thing about them, many younger ones later, took American first names, but left their last as it was (Vietnamese). Anyone can change their first name, or have a nickname, but to change your last name, you have to explain to a Judge why you want to and then it's up to the Judge.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> I was there in 1976.  Maybe by the time you showed up, some had got a taste of what 'Americans' thought of them.
> And my brother, a Vietnam veteran who was actually in Danang in 1967-1968, fortunately never shared your attitude.



Just what do you mean "fortunately never shared your attitude". I didn't have anything to do with the Boat People and never lived around them. However, I did work with two young brothers who were very nice. They were electronic techs and 100% bilingual in English and Vietnamese. At work, they only spoke English.

However, at another company I worked for, the smell of their fish and rice lunch warming up in a microwave drove the Vice President nuts.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> Gotta say I agree with that.
> Racism makes me sick to my stomach, but an additional 'irk' is individuals who come to the U.S. and start disrespecting America and Americans.



First of all, racism will never stop. You don't want to hear what my brother thinks of people from India. Heck, a black rapper has gotten into trouble for stating "slavery was a chosen thing". He has really pi**ed off the black communities and his fans think he has "flipped his gord". 

Disrespecting.........yes, like the high school students I mentioned in a post that marched around carrying the Mexican flag and signs that said "Proud To Be Illegal". Oh yea, that's definitely disrespectful.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

helenbacque said:


> We are a nation of laws and anyone immigrating should do so according to the current laws regarding immigration.  Don't like the law?  Work to change it but until change, obey it.
> 
> For everyone ... if your heart is in another country, your body needs to be there as well.  Don't enjoy the benefits of living in this country if your allegiance is elsewhere.



What about some of the ladies from India who will only wear their native dresses? We have one in our complex that's like that. She's the only one though. Has two son's she walks to the bus in the AM and gets them in the PM. Seems like a nice lady, but the dress tells me how much she misses India. 
And, stopping at Mc Donald's a couple of weeks ago, two guys from India come in wearing turbans on their heads. They were nice and we talked to them for a moment, but they also seem to miss their country. I do sometimes wonder if the dress and turbans are a religious thing though.

Like the Vietnamese, Mexicans and some other folks from other countries here, people from India speak their native language a lot also. ​


----------



## Shalimar (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> What about some of the ladies from India who will only wear their native dresses? We have one in our complex that's like that. She's the only one though. Has two son's she walks to the bus in the AM and gets them in the PM. Seems like a nice lady, but the dress tells me how much she misses India.
> And, stopping at Mc Donald's a couple of weeks ago, two guys from India come in wearing turbans on their heads. They were nice and we talked to them for a moment, but they also seem to miss their country. I do sometimes wonder if the dress and turbans are a religious thing though.
> 
> Like the Vietnamese, Mexicans and some other folks from other countries here, people from India speak their native language a lot also. ​


What about the Native Americans who wear their Aboriginal clothing, or the indigenous people of Alaska in their mukluks and embroidered parkas? They certainly are Americans. Then there are the Amish and ultra Orthodox Jews.


----------



## rgp (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> What about some of the ladies from India who will only wear their native dresses? We have one in our complex that's like that. She's the only one though. Has two son's she walks to the bus in the AM and gets them in the PM. Seems like a nice lady, but the dress tells me how much she misses India.
> And, stopping at Mc Donald's a couple of weeks ago, two guys from India come in wearing turbans on their heads. They were nice and we talked to them for a moment, but they also seem to miss their country. I do sometimes wonder if the dress and turbans are a religious thing though.
> 
> Like the Vietnamese, Mexicans and some other folks from other countries here, people from India speak their native language a lot also. ​




 Remember about 5-6 years back...the Muslim woman that wanted to have her drivers licence photo taken with her berkah on ! who & or what was she hiding from ? In her native land, she couldn't even drive for cryin'outloud . Now here she wants to bitch about our rules to be allowed too ? Dictate changes to our privilege  ? The very privilege that she is now privileged too... I hope she went back....we don't need her.


----------



## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

Lara said:


> Oh, there is plenty of anger with the government and in many ways it's their fault, and mostly their fault,  but when it comes to the republicans vs democrats, conservatives vs liberals, etc...politics is forbidden in SF. So we'll have to let that one go for now.
> 
> Regarding how people feel about the immigrants personally, many are seen on TV sneaking into the US illegally via climbing walls, underground tunnels, truckloads crossing the border, etc. Many are drug traffickers. And once they get in, some never try to get US citizenship, some commit crimes...all while taking advantage of America's resources for free. They make a bad name for the honest immigrants trying to legally enter the US.
> 
> The government is the ultimate one responsible for protecting our borders but we have a country  with a broken system of "checks & balances" that is keeping our leader from moving forward with his plan as fast as he'd like to.



Yes so there is a distinction. Not all immigrants have ill intentiions but I do understand what you are referring to now. Thank you for clarifying that. 


ClassicRockr said:


> As far as my knowledge about the "Boat People", I was living in Southern California when they showed up on the shores. The story and concerns about them made big headlines in the Orange County Register newspaper. It was documented that the Vietnamese gangs, in Southern California/Garden Grove, started after the Boat People arrived around 1979 or so.
> 
> How is that for my "qualifications" on the subject?


Oh ok so you know for sure there were no Vietnamese criminal gangs  before the boat people arrived because the newspaper headlines said so. Thank you. 



JaniceM said:


> I kinda wonder if individuals who make remarks like the one you quoted have had any personal experience at all with the groups they're so much against.  In some cases, it sounds downright paranoid.
> The numerous Vietnamese 'Boat people' that I knew "back in the day" were good people, decent human beings-  not criminals, not in gangs, and didn't hole up in their own communities like the one the poster mentioned.  They blended on in with everybody else.
> However, it's probably that attitude of suspicion and dislike for 'outsiders' that _causes _​many immigrants to avoid trying to assimilate and stay within the safety of their own communities.
> 
> Something else came to mind after I logged off:  individuals express that immigration is a matter of law&order- that immigrants are coming here 'illegally' and are 'breaking the law'-  while some of those states spent 15+ years violating the Supreme Court decision on the _Brown_ case;  one reference says public schools in North Carolina didn't abide by that ruling a/k/a law until the end of 1970, and another said it was even later.  And yet there are some who claim none of this has anything to do with racism!



I’m not sure either Janice. You definitely know more about this than I do. Just the term ‘boat people’ sounds derogatory to me and I don’t even really know the full story. Anyway that’s about all I really need to know about it . I’m not passionately involved so I’ll end my inquisitiveness here. 

Thank you!


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> What about the Native Americans who wear their Aboriginal clothing, or the indigenous people of Alaska in their mukluks and embroidered parkas? They certainly are Americans. Then there are the Amish and ultra Orthodox Jews.



From what I know, and have seen, Native Americans only wear their native dress when performing in a Pow Wow. We been to those both in Colorado and Wyoming. I've seen, on tv, a Native American rodeo where all of them where wearing cowboy hats, cowboy boots and Wrangler brand jeans. 

As far as the Alaskans go, we don't see them, or much of them, in the lower 48. But, I'll bet if a person from India was to move there and wear their native dress, the Alaska people would say something about that.

As far as the Amish go, their dress and the way they live is their religion. Some do convert and dress/live like regular Americans do. 

The Ulta Orthodox Jews dress with their religion as well.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Yes so there is a distinction. Not all immigrants have ill intentiions but I do understand what you are referring to now. Thank you for clarifying that.
> 
> Oh ok so you know for sure there were no Vietnamese criminal gangs  before the boat people arrived because the newspaper headlines said so. Thank you.
> 
> ...



Yes, but your "inquisitiveness" is cute!


----------



## Keesha (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Yes, but your "inquisitiveness" is cute!



Well DUH! :wiggle:


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

* Calling people racist, over and over again, ad nauseam , does not make it true.* *It is an old, over-used, and tiring one-trick pony.* *Doing such is designed to do two things: 1st, to make the * *name caller feel superior,** and 2nd to try and intimidate people and keep them from speaking their minds. * 
*
Well, guess what ? Some of us are not intimidated, nor will we shut up.*


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Yes so there is a distinction. Not all immigrants have ill intentiions but I do understand what you are referring to now. Thank you for clarifying that.
> 
> Oh ok so you know for sure there were no Vietnamese criminal gangs  before the boat people arrived because the newspaper headlines said so. Thank you.
> 
> ...



Since you're not familiar with the subject, I'll just add-  individuals fled for their lives after the Communist takeover.  The individuals I knew personally were already full-fledged Americans by the time I met them in 1976.


----------



## Manatee (May 2, 2018)

The US population has more than doubled in my lifetime, it is time to shut the door.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> Since you're not familiar with the subject, I'll just add-  individuals fled for their lives after the Communist takeover.  The individuals I knew personally were already full-fledged Americans by the time I met them in 1976.



There are the key words....”they were already full-fledged Americans”. Really seems like many, many Mexican immigrants don’t want to become legal Americans. Why???


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> From what I know, and have seen, Native Americans only wear their native dress when performing in a Pow Wow. We been to those both in Colorado and Wyoming. I've seen, on tv, a Native American rodeo where all of them where wearing cowboy hats, cowboy boots and Wrangler brand jeans.
> 
> As far as the Alaskans go, we don't see them, or much of them, in the lower 48. But, I'll bet if a person from India was to move there and wear their native dress, the Alaska people would say something about that.
> 
> ...




So what exactly do 'regular Americans' wear???


----------



## Knight (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> Actually, that's not the reason Ellis Island was opened.
> Read up on Castle Garden.


Castle Garden Immigration Station
From August 1, 1855 through April 18, 1890, immigrants arriving in the state of New York came through Castle Garden.


America's first official immigrant examining and processing center, Castle Garden welcomed approximately 8 million immigrants - most from Germany, Ireland, England, Scotland, Sweden, Italy, Russia and Denmark.
Castle Garden welcomed its last immigrant on April 18, 1890. After the closing of Castle Garden, immigrants were processed at an old barge office in Manhattan until the opening of the Ellis Island Immigration Center on 1 January 1892. More than one in six native-born Americans are descendants of the eight million immigrants who entered the United States through Castle Garden.


https://www.thoughtco.com/castle-garden-americas-official-immigration-center-1422288


A sugestion was made for me to read about Castle Gardens. Using the inscription on the plaque as fails to address the use of processing centers. I quoted from and provided the referance to 


"In honor of the statute's intent to welcome immigrants, the U.S. government opened an immigration office on nearby Ellis Island in 1892. Between 1892 and 1954, Lady Liberty welcomed millions of immigrants who arrived at Ellis Island before continuing their journey into the United States.
https://www.reference.com/art-litera...345c7c12bcc74#"


I came to the same conclusion that America has a process of documenting people coming to America. Those in the caravan that can prove they are entitled to asyslum would be doing so legally. Stopping them to verify status is the process in place. Denial of entry is valid until the process can be completed.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

JaniceM said:


> So what exactly do 'regular Americans' wear???



That’s a weird question!! Go into any Walmart, Target, Penny’s, Macy’s or Kohl’s.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Knight said:


> Castle Garden Immigration Station
> From August 1, 1855 through April 18, 1890, immigrants arriving in the state of New York came through Castle Garden.
> 
> 
> ...



There are those caravan people that have already been allowed to enter and are waiting for complete processing.  Due to this, will America ever learn and do the right way??


----------



## JaniceM (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> That’s a weird question!! Go into any Walmart, Target, Penny’s, Macy’s or Kohl’s.



Walmart = "regular Americans"?  http://buzz.auntyacid.com/25-hilarious-weird-walmart-customers-2/


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

I don't know what clothing has to do with anything.  Personally, I don't care what someone wears. In any event, the tens of thousands of Mexicans I see every single day wear clothing exactly the same as me. 

Funny little story. I bought a red and black plaid shirt at Walmart. Last week on my way to the market, I was waiting for the bus and guess what ? Two other guys (Mexicans), at that bus stop, were also wearing the very same shirt. We laughed about it and congratulated each other on our good taste in shirts.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 2, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't know what clothing has to do with anything.  Personally, I don't care what someone wears. In any event, the tens of thousands of Mexicans I see every single day wear clothing exactly the same as me.
> 
> Funny little story. I bought a red and black plaid shirt at Walmart. Last week on my way to the market, I was waiting for the bus and guess what ? Two other guys (Mexicans), at that bus stop, were also wearing the very same shirt. We laughed about it and congratulated each other on our good taste in shirts.



Nothing other than some folks in this thread say “if a person wants to live in America, they should speak English and love America”. Well, wouldn’t that also mean looking/dressing like an American? People who dress in their native country dress don’t seem to want to be American. 

Really nothing to do with immigration, but some people get annoyed by it.


----------



## john19485 (May 2, 2018)

There are Millions waiting to see what happens here, if we let these in we have no border, or County left, our grandchildren, will work to feed and house these people as mandated  by the government


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Manatee said:


> The US population has more than doubled in my lifetime, it is time to shut the door.




I agree with the feeling. However, I'd like to make a suggestion. Reduce the total number of new immigrants to 10% of the current number *AND *base the entry visas on merit, and merit alone. We can always use intelligent people who have needed skills.

 Example: I have read that there is a critical shortage of nurses in America. I see no valid reason why we can not select foreign nurses and give them bonus points for entry into the U.S. (bonus points moves people up to the head of the line and dramatically shortens their waiting time). Seems like a win-win. 

It goes without saying that this selection would NOT in any way be based on race, color, religion or gender. Of course, a criminal background check would be part of the selection process.


----------



## Sunny (May 2, 2018)

> That's Right!  If a person wants to move to a new nation today, they  should have the responsibility to learn the new language and customs,  and make every effort to "fit in"....otherwise, everyone would be better  off if they stayed where they are.  My old Grandparents entered the  U.S. through Ellis Island in the early 1900's, and they made every  attempt to become productive members of their New Nation.



You're probably right, Don, and they "should" do that. It's to their own benefit to learn the new language, customs, etc.  And I'm sure they know that also.  Most immigrants enroll very quickly in ESL classes, to learn our very difficult language ASAP.  It usually takes one generation for them to completely assimilate and become just as "American" as we are.


----------



## BobF (May 2, 2018)

The US does have legitimate concerns about immigration.   The UN comments do not consider that the US and other nations do have built in laws about immigration and how it should be handled.   Right now we seem to have some in our government that just do not care about our laws or what is happening to the us.   They should all just get in line and get taken per the rules.

I believe that during more sensible times the courts stood for the US way of accepting immigrants and was willing to agree to the UN ways until it started to change the US ways of accepting immigrants.

I saw some politicians and followers discussing this mob scene of immigrations and it was suggested that one possible way of doing things would be to work with those crime filled places and help them gain safety and freedom for their people.   Maybe too good to have it happen quickly but it would be one way of ending the drive to move to the US hoping for housing, food, medical help.   In the long run we can not afford all this immigration.


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

There is one aspect of deportation of non-citizens that causes me deep shame. Some may not be aware that non-citizens can enroll in our military. Many of them have served one or more tours of duty in Afghanistan/Iraq but when they muster out if they have not yet become legal citizens they can be deported.

In my opinion they have more than paid the price to be full fledged U.S. citizens.  There is an office in Tijuana, called Deported Military Vets that serves such men. 

As I said, I think it is shameful that we deport such honorable men.

Having said that, it MAY be true that such men do not want to be Americans. If so, then that is a horse of a different color. 

I freely admit I haven't looked into this in any depth and I may be reacting to only what I hear from the liberal media.


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

BobF said:


> The US does have legitimate concerns about immigration.   The UN comments do not consider that the US and other nations do have built in laws about immigration and how it should be handled.   Right now we seem to have some in our government that just do not care about our laws or what is happening to the us.   They should all just get in line and get taken per the rules.
> 
> I believe that during more sensible times the courts stood for the US way of accepting immigrants and was willing to agree to the UN ways until it started to change the US ways of accepting immigrants.
> 
> I saw some politicians and followers discussing this mob scene of immigrations and it was suggested that one possible way of doing things would be to work with those crime filled places and help them gain safety and freedom for their people.   Maybe too good to have it happen quickly but it would be one way of ending the drive to move to the US hoping for housing, food, medical help.   In the long run we can not afford all this immigration.




I completely agree with you, Bob. Unfortunately there are so many Americans who are America Haters that they would twist our intentions and look for ways to make us look bad. I can hear it now, "Capitalists", "Imperialists" , "Pax Americana" etc.


----------



## john19485 (May 2, 2018)

Anyone that served in the military, should be declared a citizen. I was setting around the campfire, just talking to this Vietnamese  Capt., this colonel, and some of his men came and set by the campfire, he was saying that he was thinking about going to *Australia, because the U.S. was just not worth returning to ,  I told him my wife and myself were going to stay in Vietnam for awhile* , then maybe go to France, with her mom and dad.


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

That's very interesting, John.  Could you tell us a little more about that campfire talk ? When and where it happened ?


----------



## john19485 (May 2, 2018)

I think it was around  1968, The first time I was wounded was May 4th 1968, I think it was after that, can't remember what all we talked about, we were just BS- ing, drinking beer. 





Traveler said:


> That's very interesting, John.  Could you tell us a little more about that campfire talk ? When and where it happened ?


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

john19485 said:


> I think it was around  1968, The first time I was wounded was May 4th 1968, I think it was after that, can't remember what all we talked about, we were just BS- ing, drinking beer.




Ah, ok. I wasn't sure if you were speaking of recently, or during the war. Thanks


----------



## Butterfly (May 2, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> What about some of the ladies from India who will only wear their native dresses? We have one in our complex that's like that. She's the only one though. Has two son's she walks to the bus in the AM and gets them in the PM. Seems like a nice lady, but the dress tells me how much she misses India.
> And, stopping at Mc Donald's a couple of weeks ago, two guys from India come in wearing turbans on their heads. They were nice and we talked to them for a moment, but they also seem to miss their country. I do sometimes wonder if the dress and turbans are a religious thing though.
> 
> Like the Vietnamese, Mexicans and some other folks from other countries here, people from India speak their native language a lot also. ​



Ummm, I would point out that Europeans were the original "illegal immigrants" here in America.  Following your logic would mean that we should all be dressing in buckskin or whatever and speaking the language of the original Native Americans.


----------



## Butterfly (May 2, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Time was, boatloads of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler’s Germany were turned away from both our countries. Apparently, sanctuary from hatred and violence  did not apply to them.



And, to our eternal shame, those boats, at least the St. Louis, had to return to Germany, where the Nazis murdered most of those Jewish refugees in their prison camps.


----------



## Gary O' (May 2, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> And, to our eternal shame, those boats, at least the St. Louis, had to return to Germany, where the Nazis murdered most of those Jewish refugees in their prison camps.



The innocent are nothing more than sacrificial lambs when a hate agenda is employed.


----------



## Shalimar (May 2, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> The innocent are nothing more than sacrificial lambs when a hate agenda is employed.


Always.


----------



## Traveler (May 2, 2018)

Very few countries can lay claim to the moral high ground *IF *we go back in history far enough. Are we discussing history or are we discussing what is happening *TODAY *?

It is possible to learn from history. Well, some people can learn. Others will just be victims of their own ignorance. 

Conquering other countries was the way of the world in the past. We can do nothing to change the past. All we can do is deal with the present. 

The present, as far as this thread is concerned, is whether we are going to allow tens of millions of aliens to alter and eventually destroy our culture. Yes, Gary. Tens of millions. 

I say to one and all, 'you think it is bad NOW '?  Just wait a few more years and you are going to have the problem in your lap.
Or, if you are very unlucky, you are going to have a gang of street thugs inside your home, and as you and your spouse lie bleeding, you watch them, ransacking your property. Don't laugh, it happens in the southwest, daily.

Guess who are the most common victims of home invasions? Yep, senior citizens. 

I hope you don't have to learn the hard way but some people never learn until it is too late.
*****************************************************************************************************************
Latest update on that caravan. Several hundred have been admitted into the U.S and are staying at a special shelter set up by Christ Church in San Diego. As I watch at the Linea Nuevo, the San Ysidro/Tijuana land-port, hundreds more are sleeping on the ground a few feet from U.S. soil. I passed through them just a few hours ago.


----------



## Olivia (May 3, 2018)

> Guess who are the most common victims of home invasions? Yep, senior citizens.



Look out senior citizens. This man is giving you fair warning. Maybe join him in his hideout in them there hills. Just wonder how long that's going to take. Wishing you the best of luck in getting there. God Speed!!!


----------



## 911 (May 3, 2018)

I read an article in a magazine while waiting to get a haircut and it stated that Californians are moving out of the state in droves. Any truth to this? 

I also read that the majority of Californians are against sanctuary cities and giving freebies to the immigrants. Is that true?


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

911 said:


> I also read that the majority of Californians are against sanctuary cities and giving freebies to the immigrants. Is that true?





Traveler said:


> I passed through them just a few hours ago.



I think maybe traveler is worried about their wellfair and feeding them:hide:


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

911 said:


> I read an article in a magazine while waiting to get a haircut and it stated that Californians are moving out of the state in droves. Any truth to this?
> 
> I also read that the majority of Californians are against sanctuary cities and giving freebies to the immigrants. Is that true?



There are still PLENTY of people living in Los Angeles and they are Californians or folks that relocated from some other states. My wife does have a girlfriend who lives in Anaheim and she tells us that many Mexicans have moved into her area. Twenty some years ago, it was mainly Santa Ana where Mexicans were found in Orange County. Apparently, since we left in mid 2002, the influx of Mexicans to Orange County has been very large. Although there are still cities in Orange and LA counties they can't afford to live in.........like Newport Beach, Huntington Beach, Laguna Hills, Anaheim Hills, Redondo Beach and some others. 

As far as how Californians feel about sanctuary cities, don't know the percentage of those that do and don't want them, but with so many Hispanics, that support immigration (legal or illegal) in Southern California, I wouldn't doubt the positive feelings about sanctuary cities is pretty big. 

There are lots and lots of businesses, mostly manufacturing, that hire Mexicans throughout Southern California.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> I think maybe traveler is worried about their wellfair and feeding them:hide:



Not really! It's much more about all the illegals that want to come into America, stay, but not become Americans. It's also about the crime and drugs. Not saying that all of them have something to do with the drug cartel or crime, but...........
It's about the businesses that hire illegals.


----------



## Lara (May 3, 2018)

911 said:


> ...I also read that the majority of Californians are against sanctuary cities and giving freebies to the immigrants. Is that true?


The Department of Justice (Attorney Jeff Sessions) sued California a couple of months ago because they wouldn't cooperate with law enforcement officials. Since then I keep seeing where cities in Southern California, one by one, are revolting and choosing federal law over state regulations. I don't know if it's a majority but the number of CA cities revolting are growing.

CA was sued because of California's 3 new laws, including "Senate Bill 54" that violate the US Constitution Supremacy Clause. CA Governor Jerry Brown and Attorney General Xavier Bacarra are still awaiting court proceedings, last I read.


----------



## Lara (May 3, 2018)

Speaking of Welfare. It makes no sense to me that the growing number of homeless Americans don't qualify for Welfare Benefits because you have to have an address (and a low-paying job?) in order to qualify. But that's not a requirement for illegal immigrants if they request asylum. Homelessness has reached epic proportions in Southern CA. And don't even get me started with the amount of homeless Veterans sleeping on the streets. Shouldn't we be taking care of American citizens first? And repair our mental health programs first that is often the root of the problems? 

I saw a cartoon (I don't think it's anything to laugh about but it's probably true) that said, " If you took their welfare checks away from them, they'd deport themselves." Most don't want to be Americans. They want to make money in the US while enjoying benefits and then send their money back home (Mexico) to their large families. Not all but most.


----------



## Sunny (May 3, 2018)

Olivia, thanks for the warning! I can hear those screaming hordes of Commies yelling "Capitalists!  Imperialists!" while they come to get us senior citizens, and am leavin' for my shelter up in the hills, before they git me.

Butterfly, 





> Ummm, I would point out that Europeans were the original "illegal  immigrants" here in America.  Following your logic would mean that we  should all be dressing in buckskin or whatever and speaking the language  of the original Native Americans.



Good point. Another interesting note is that one of the official reasons FDR gave for turning away that boatload of European Jews trying to escape the Holocaust is that they would put too big a strain on our social services, having to teach them English, get them settled here, etc.  

We can't allow that many scientists, musicians, writers, etc. to enter the country at one time, our "alien" population would get too big.  So they were returned to the Nazis.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> I think maybe traveler is worried about their wellfair and feeding them:hide:





ClassicRockr said:


> Not really! It's much more about all the illegals that want to come into America, stay, but not become Americans. It's also about the crime and drugs. Not saying that all of them have something to do with the drug cartel or crime, but...........
> It's about the businesses that hire illegals.



:yawning:  

It’s called ‘humour.’


----------



## Don M. (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> There are lots and lots of businesses, mostly manufacturing, that hire Mexicans throughout Southern California.



There's a good solution to that issue....fine the Crap out of employers who hire these illegals.  Employers should be required to verify an employees citizenship, or legal status before they hire them.  If the jobs dry up, much of the incentive for illegals to come here would disappear.

However, there is a Flip side to this issue...our own people are unwilling to take many of these lower paying jobs....they can make far more on welfare than by working for minimum wage....so, I guess we are stuck with the illegals.


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Very few countries can lay claim to the moral high ground *IF *we go back in history far enough. Are we discussing history or are we discussing what is happening *TODAY *?
> 
> It is possible to learn from history. Well, some people can learn. Others will just be victims of their own ignorance.
> 
> ...





‘10s of millions’

Sounds a lot
Is a lot
From what I’ve read, the unconfirmed estimate is 10 million.
That too is a lot
Funny, isn’t it? What folks with an agenda can throw around.
Seems there’d be many of those ‘cities’
Overstuffed
Teaming

‘Hundreds’ is a tad less than ‘10s of millions’

Here’s a fresh CNN article talking about a few less than hundreds;

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/01/americas/caravan-migrants-us-border/index.html

My Mexican relatives were recently assassinated in Acapulco

They didn’t join that caravan


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> My Mexican relatives were recently assassinated in Acapulco
> 
> They didn’t join that caravan



Gary. I’m so sorry to read this. It’s disturbing & heart breaking. 
Thoughts & prayers to you and your loved ones:heart:
:grouphug:


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Don M. said:


> There's a good solution to that issue....fine the Crap out of employers who hire these illegals.  Employers should be required to verify an employees citizenship, or legal status before they hire them.  If the jobs dry up, much of the incentive for illegals to come here would disappear.
> 
> However, there is a Flip side to this issue...our own people are unwilling to take many of these lower paying jobs....they can make far more on welfare than by working for minimum wage....so, I guess we are stuck with the illegals.




This has all been recently beat to death in another thread

Personally, I do not support anyone getting freebees, anyone.
I especially do not support illegal immigrants or even immigrants getting freebees, either.

come here
earn yer keep
like those from before....waaay before

I really don't understand freebees
it's incentive to be here....duh

build a wall my ass
close the freebee double door

you start where the problem originates
not attack the symptom

legitimate fleeing immigrants know how to survive without our hand outs


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Basically, I think this is what Traveler is saying about some, maybe more than "some", Seniors..........

They are either very naïve through early life and become more that way as Seniors, like both of my SIL's or they just don't "think" good enough. Not putting down any Seniors at all, but many will agree with this. Some will hear about making an investment into something from a stranger, write that stranger a check and end up losing thousands of dollars of their savings. They don't ask enough questions or whatever. They will end up yelling "victim" whereas, they just aren't "street smart" and/or are naïve. My wife knows that I'm "street smart" and definitely not naïve. In some ways, I'm perfect at reading a person's personality and/or when they are trying to "sell" something that is completely fake.

This article online today explains this.......How criminals steal $37 billion a year from America's elderly​


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Gary. I’m so sorry to read this. It’s disturbing & heart breaking.
> Thoughts & prayers to you and your loved ones:heart:
> :grouphug:




My son in law's mother, brother, uncle
22 round to the side of the head
Federale.... drug cartel (one and the same)

Those still living are not safe
My son in law up here is not safe

those stemming the tide of fleeing émigrés have little thought t'ward those in dire need of safety

pisses me off


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

When people say the word "safety", just how safe is America to live in? I mean, trying to escape from drug cartel and gang violence, heck we have the same two things here in the U.S.. 

Of course, there are parts of America that are much more safe than others, but those places sure aren't around the corner from their homes. Big major cities are where descent paying jobs are and some people have to drive miles upon miles to get to work. Basically, only retiree's have the privilege of living in a really safe area.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> My son in law's mother, brother, uncle
> 22 round to the side of the head
> Federale.... drug cartel (one and the same)
> 
> ...



Wow! I can’t even begin to grasp what this must be like for you and your family. I’ve seen pictures of your family and you look so proud and loving towards them. This thread now brings an entirely new meaning to me. 
You have every right to be pissed off. 
Oh mannnn.


----------



## Aunt Bea (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> This has all been recently beat to death in another thread
> 
> Personally, I do not support anyone getting freebees, anyone.
> I especially do not support illegal immigrants or even immigrants getting freebees, either.
> ...



I agree!

 I don't support freebies for any able-bodied person including our own citizens that are unwilling to work.

I'm all for a hand up not a handout.

IMO opinion our system should be reformed to require work/education in exchange for benefits.

In this area, I see recent Hispanic immigrants legal or illegal, who can tell, that work at all sorts of menial jobs and live in extended families to make ends meet.

This new wave of immigrants reminds me of the old Italians that came here for a new start. They worked at jobs that required hard labor and scrimped to give their families a better life. They also in many cases kept their native language, religion and the traditions that they grew up with. They were also viewed with prejudice and hatred by many Americans.

IMO we need new blood and we are making a mistake by fighting this wave of new immigrants who actually want to be a part of our country. I think that we should accept them at the border, collect DNA, fingerprints, issue temporary work visas and allow them to enter peacefully. If 10,000,000 do come it is still only a 3-4% increase in our population, we can handle that.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Wow! I can’t even begin to grasp what this must be like for you and your family. I’ve seen pictures of your family and you look so proud and loving towards them. This thread now brings an entirely new meaning to me.
> You have every right to be pissed off.
> Oh mannnn.



I feel for him as well, but read my reply concerning "safety" in the U.S..


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Wow! I can’t even begin to grasp what this must be like for you and your family. I’ve seen pictures of your family and you look so proud and loving towards them. This thread now brings an entirely new meaning to me.
> You have every right to be pissed off.
> Oh mannnn.


We all deal with our baggage
all here have them
some heavier

my joy is hugging those little guys












...and seeing them grow into productive citizens

my grandson, second from left;

my son in law next to me






graduated cadet national guard training











Just joined the army

Not an isolated case

right now I wanna wring some necks

...best not post my real thoughts


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree!
> 
> I don't support freebies for any able-bodied person including our own citizens that are unwilling to work.
> 
> ...



AGAIN.........what about the problem concerning those that absolutely don't and won't become legal citizens???


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> AGAIN.........what about the problem concerning those that absolutely don't and won't become legal citizens???



they would become fewer

much fewer


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> I feel for him as well, but read my reply concerning "safety" in the U.S..





ClassicRockr said:


> In some ways, I'm perfect at reading a person's personality


Sorry for bursting your bubble here but No you’re not. Far from it. 



ClassicRockr said:


> When people say the word "safety", just how safe is America to live in? I mean, trying to escape from drug cartel and gang violence, heck we have the same two things here in the U.S..
> 
> Of course, there are parts of America that are much more safe than others, but those places sure aren't around the corner from their homes. Big major cities are where descent paying jobs are and some people have to drive miles upon miles to get to work. Basically, only retiree's have the privilege of living in a really safe area.



Yep! You sound like a sympathy card.


----------



## Aunt Bea (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> AGAIN.........what about the problem concerning those that absolutely don't and won't become legal citizens???



IMO if they enter legally and are issued a temporary work visa they are more likely to apply for citizenship than they are if they enter illegally.

If they don't apply for citizenship I really don't see a problem as long as they periodically reapply for a temporary work visa, stay out of trouble and contribute to our society.

I also think that it might be a good idea if all Americans took the test for citizenship. I'm willing to bet that many of the folks that make the most noise would fail.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

That’s a beautiful family you have there Gary. You’ve got every right to love, protect and be proud of them. 
Too bad there weren’t more people like you in this crazy world. 
Bless you and your family. 
A pictures worth a thousand words and yours tell a delightful story. :heart:


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO if they enter legally and are issued a temporary work visa they are more likely to apply for citizenship than they are if they enter illegally.
> 
> If they don't apply for citizenship I really don't see a problem as long as they periodically reapply for a temporary work visa, stay out of trouble and contribute to our society.
> 
> I also think that it might be a good idea if all Americans took the test for citizenship. I'm willing to bet that many of the folks that make the most noise would fail.




Absolutely. 
GREAT post Aunt Bea! :thumbsup:


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> A pictures worth a thousand words and yours tell a delightful story. :heart:



been trying to compete with pictures via the written word for some time now

still can't come close

Thanks, kid


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> been trying to compete with pictures via the written word for some time now
> 
> still can't come close
> 
> Thanks, kid



My pleasure and you are MOST welcome my friend. :flowers:


----------



## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> ‘10s of millions’
> 
> Sounds a lot
> Is a lot
> ...


Mon Dieu, Gary, I am so sorry. Beyond horrible.


----------



## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> That’s a beautiful family you have there Gary. You’ve got every right to love, protect and be proud of them.
> Too bad there weren’t more people like you in this crazy world.
> Bless you and your family.
> A pictures worth a thousand words and yours tell a delightful story. :heart:


I concur.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Sorry for bursting your bubble here but No you’re not. Far from it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep! You sound like a sympathy card.



Definitely NOT what my wife tells me..........and who knows me the best, you or her? BTW, she's known me for 18 years now.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO if they enter legally and are issued a temporary work visa they are more likely to apply for citizenship than they are if they enter illegally.
> 
> If they don't apply for citizenship I really don't see a problem as long as they periodically reapply for a temporary work visa, stay out of trouble and contribute to our society.
> 
> I also think that it might be a good idea if all Americans took the test for citizenship. I'm willing to bet that many of the folks that make the most noise would fail.



This is a good idea, thing is, it's been highly documented that most-to-all Mexican workers send most of their paycheck to Mexico for their families there. 

As far as them constantly getting a Work Permit and not becoming American citizens, many, many people will disagree with you on this. It's actually a "cop-out" for them to continue staying in the U.S. in a "processing" status. Get the darn "processing" thing going faster so they can get "legal", if indeed that's what they want. Unfortunately, many think, and know, that it's much easier and safer, to get into the "processing" thing than coming in illegally. Both ways can be a "pain in the butt" for legal citizens of the U.S. who wanted and did become legal citizens.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Well, the debate is coming to a close for me. Bottom Line is........I totally agree with Traveler's feeling about his thread.


----------



## Gary O' (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> That’s a beautiful family you have there Gary. You’ve got every right to love, protect and be proud of them.
> *Too bad there weren’t more people like you in this crazy world. *
> Bless you and your family.
> A pictures worth a thousand words and yours tell a delightful story. :heart:



Gotta say one thing here, then go outside.

there are

hundreds of millions

they just don't post on threads

they're too humble

it comes natural for 'em to remain mute, quiet
living by example

they are so very easy to find
next to you on a bus
standing in line at a store
viewing from across a park

if
you look for them

some don't

funny thing;
take two sworn enemies
that hate each other's kind
confine them
eventually, their thoughts will migrate towards a mutual understanding
oftentimes they'll become friends, sometimes even close friends
I have a few of those

others
those that concentrate on isolating others
will never have what they so seek

humanity can be so inhumane


----------



## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Gotta say one thing here, then go outside.
> 
> there are
> 
> ...



I wholeheartedly agree. I am inspired by refugees from war torn countries who are humbly grateful for Canada opening our doors. Even though most of them have lost family members to bombs, disease etc, suffer from PTSD in some fashion, they are 

totally committed to building  a new life for themselves and their loved ones. Rather than being consumed by resentment for having endured such terrible hardships, they have embraced their own humanity. I am humbled in their presence, I suspect I benefit as much as they do from our sessions.


----------



## NancyNGA (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> funny thing;
> take two sworn enemies
> that hate each other's kind
> confine them
> ...



I think so.  I hope so.
 As you always say, "Keep a fire" :rose:




Gary O' said:


> others
> those that concentrate on isolating others
> will never have what they so seek


That, too.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Gotta say one thing here, then go outside.
> 
> there are
> 
> ...



You are so very right.
I’ve met the worst of mankind but I’ve also met the very best, most generous souls ever. 
In my humble opinion, when you perceive the world as innocent and not a threat in any way, most of humanity open their hearts and project their best back to you. 

Most people are naturally attracted to loving individuals. You see it in their eyes, hear it in their voices, see it in their smiles and feel it in your heart; and this mutual  attraction has nothing to do with race, religion , gender, age or external beauty. 
It has to do with humans inner yearning to be loved and loving towards others. 

Its all good  Gary. :heart:

(my statement was more to boost your morale but yours doesn’t need boosting. It’s just fine as is).


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

MUST reply to Gary and Keesha........there are those that will take full advantage of another country without a blink of an eye. Is that what America wants??? There  are those sympathizers, that they pray upon. I totally understand what Traveler is saying and/or what many people want...........much more secure borders. 

For those that want to open their arms to everyone, that is disaster in the making..........and I believe all of us know that, but there are those that just won't admit it.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> MUST reply to Gary and Keesha........there are those that will take full advantage of another country without a blink of an eye. Is that what America wants??? There  are those sympathizers, that they pray upon. I totally understand what Traveler is saying and/or what many people want...........much more secure borders.
> 
> For those that want to open their arms to everyone, that is disaster in the making..........and I believe all of us know that, but there are those that just won't admit it.



ClassicRockr! It IS possible to understand what you are saying AND have an open heart about it.
You make compassion seem synonymous with stupid.

Note: I, for one, don’t have my arms open for everyone. FAR, FAR from it. I’m not ‘that’ friendly or trusting. 
In fact I’m a tad offended by that very thought . :/


----------



## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Aliens ? What aliens ? Ain't no aliens around here. Nice and safe where WE live.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> ClassicRockr! It IS possible to understand what you are saying AND have an open heart about it.
> You make compassion seem synonymous with stupid.
> 
> Note: I, for one, don’t have my arms open for everyone. FAR, FAR from it. I’m not ‘that’ friendly or trusting.
> In fact I’m a tad offended by that very thought . :/



Don't get me wrong, compassion is a darn good thing, but some people have way to much of it and then that mentality blows up in their face. When I met my wife, she was much more compassionate that I have ever been and pretty much nonjudgmental. She will tell anyone that she learned from me how not to be so compassionate and more judgmental. She is very glad that I helped her "see the light" and change. People can be overly compassionate and nonjudgmental and that can spell trouble/problems., like making the wrong type of friends.


----------



## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Don't get me wrong, compassion is a darn good thing, but some people have way to much of it and then that mentality blows up in their face. When I met my wife, she was much more compassionate that I have ever been and pretty much nonjudgmental. She will tell anyone that she learned from me how not to be so compassionate and more judgmental. She is very glad that I helped her "see the light" and change. People can be overly compassionate and nonjudgmental and that can spell trouble/problems., like making the wrong type of friends.



Well that’s great that you helped your wife see the light. Praise the Lord. 

It depends how you define compassion. What you appear to be defining is not compassion but something else altogether 

Compassion isn’t giving in to others to allow them to have their own way. That’s referred to as enabling and does more harm than good. Enabling these illegal immigrants is NOT considered compassionate. 

It IS possible to be assertive and compassionate at the same time. If others want to take advantage  of someone’s  compassion and good nature, then it stops. 

Using compassion in the correct way benefits all of humanity. 

Here is a good article that correctly defines what compassion is and how it is used 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/making-change/201801/can-you-be-too-compassionate


----------



## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Classic Rocker,  have you noticed that those who support *maximum *immigration are living far away from the problem ?

They don't care one tiny bit about America. In truth, they actually hate everything America stands for. Their actual  goal is to destroy our culture. They point the finger and scream hate and racism but they are the ones who hate. Above all else they hate America. By advocating for *maximum *immigration they are working to speed up our destruction.


----------



## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Well that’s great that you helped your wife see the light. Praise the Lord.
> 
> It depends how you define compassion. What you appear to be defining is not compassion but something else altogether
> 
> ...



Perhaps I should use the word "nice" or "overly nice". Actually, no matter what problems America has, concerning people, the "good doer's" and/or "overly nice" ones seem to come to the rescue. A person commits a murder and the mother, father or other family member will say "basically he/she is a good person". Even the person friends can say this. I don't get it.........a "good" person is a killer??? 

There was an article online about a town on the border, next to the Rio Grande, where many folks are just this way. One lady told the reporter that she was standing on her porch and seen an illegal running from the wall he just got over. A Border Patrol Agent asked the women "which way did that guy go" and she told him the complete opposite direction than the kid was running. 

Another lady let a 22 year old illegal hide under her front porch........why? Well, she told the reporter that the 22 year old look like her son did. After awhile, the kid got out from under the porch and started running again, but Border Patrol caught up with him. The lady told the reporter, "I just don't know why the Border Patrol arrested him". She was upset.

Apparently there are a number of "nice" folks in towns along the border that have this "let them in" mentality. They want to help these illegals escape and avoid being arrested. 


As far as the folks in the caravan, just how many do we allow into the U.S............every single one of them??? 

I think people on this thread need to read online articles about illegals and what some have done (crime) in the U.S.. While at it, read online articles about Mexicans who legally come into the U.S. and stay, but never, ever become citizens.


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## rgp (May 3, 2018)

Consider this about [aliens] illegal or legal. 

Some fill a need to some industries here in the states...@ a lower wage. Which lowers prices on the product? or raises profit?

Some settle in what ever area they do, and cause no problem...they just want a chance to live & prosper. Some look for & participate in every criminal activity can,...

We have a system in place to weed out the illegals ...and hopefully the criminal....Let's use it!

Those that prove to be illegal & or criminal should be sent back / blocked....

I wish the legals well!...........Why {WE} argue about this I'll never figure out??


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## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Classic Rocker,  have you noticed that those who support *maximum *immigration are living far away from the problem ?
> 
> They don't care one tiny bit about America. In truth, they actually hate everything America stands for. Their actual  goal is to destroy our culture. They point the finger and scream hate and racism but they are the ones who hate. Above all else they hate America. By advocating for *maximum *immigration they are working to speed up our destruction.



Without a doubt, you will get "hate mail" (replies) from this. But, people have to, MUST, understand where you are coming from as well as those that feel the way you do. Without a doubt our Nation is in a battle within itself. Heck, we don't need a War on our soil, we already have one going on amongst society.


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## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

rgp said:


> Consider this about [aliens] illegal or legal.
> 
> Some fill a need to some industries here in the states...@ a lower wage. Which lowers prices on the product? or raises profit?
> 
> ...



I definitely agree with you about the illegals. Thing is, as far as "a chance to live and prosper"..........many of them send most of their money back to Mexico to their families there. They will pack many into an apartment, sleeping on the floor and couch. 

I think today, the only way to "live and prosper" is to have a college degree or love a good paying manual work job, like roofing.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

rgp said:


> Consider this about [aliens] illegal or legal.
> 
> Some fill a need to some industries here in the states...@ a lower wage. Which lowers prices on the product? or raises profit?
> 
> ...




I agree. No problem with the *legal *immigrants, provided they *stay *legal. Part of the problem is when a legal immigrant goes rogue. Recently, here in San Diego, the police arrested an entire gang of legal immigrants for kidnapping and selling young girls into prostitution, commonly called "human trafficking".

It works like this. All along the Mexican side of the border, there are untold thousands looking for a way to get into the U.S.  Mexican gangs, known as coyotes, know all the tricks of the trade and they smuggle immigrants into the U.S.  (Some of our readers may recall a large truck full of illegal aliens who were abandoned in a Walmart parking lot, many died of heat exhaustion.) Sometimes those gangs kidnap young Mexican girls and sell them to other Mexican gangs here in the U.S. The girl is then repeatedly raped and beaten until she submits and becomes a full-time prostitute. 

This is far more common than people realize and is only one of many problems associated with Mexican gangs, on BOTH sides of the border, working in a vast criminal organization.


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Perhaps I should use the word "nice" or "overly nice". Actually, no matter what problems America has, concerning people, the "good doer's" and/or "overly nice" ones seem to come to the rescue. A person commits a murder and the mother, father or other family member will say "basically he/she is a good person". Even the person friends can say this. I don't get it.........a "good" person is a killer???
> 
> There was an article online about a town on the border, next to the Rio Grande, where many folks are just this way. One lady told the reporter that she was standing on her porch and seen an illegal running from the wall he just got over. A Border Patrol Agent asked the women "which way did that guy go" and she told him the complete opposite direction than the kid was running.
> 
> ...



So once again you are comparing being overly nice to being stupid. 


I’m quite aware of the problems that can happen with immigrants crossing the boarder. Here in Canada , we have similar problems but just on a smaller scale. 


While I don’t always watch the news, I am very up to date on  Mexican Drug Cartels and the problems that arise from these groups of people. 


Canada’s openness to free trade allows more opportunities for Mexican cartels to smuggle illegal substances such as fentanyl inside legitimate shipments, so why wouldn’t we be worried.


Just because people don’t live right beside the border , where this is taking place, doesn’t mean they don’t care or that it doesn’t affect them. It can and does affect Canada. Criminals that can’t get what they want from the U.S. often move further up to the next border which is ours. 


Also, just because people don’t share the same viewpoint about this topic, doesn’t mean they hate’ Americans. How your government handles things , has a direct impact on our country as well as others. 


What I find most amusing is that the very people getting criticized for being too compassionate or too nice , are also being criticized for being hateful individuals. 
It’s either an oxymoronic ideal or simply grabbing at straws for the lack of anything better to say. :shrug:

And ClassicRockr. Try coming to my front door and I’ll show you just how kind and compassionate I really am. :xbone:


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## ClassicRockr (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> So once again you are comparing being overly nice to being stupid.
> 
> 
> I’m quite aware of the problems that can happen with immigrants crossing the boarder. Here in Canada , we have similar problems but just on a smaller scale.
> ...



Well, there are Seniors that would say that the Seniors that are overly compassionate and/or nice can make some pretty stupid mistakes. Even family members of a Senior will say that, when they find out what their Senior family member done. 

As far as how kind and compassionate you are, you're the one who has "Fun Loving" under their Avatar, Right?


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

People in the frozen north may THINK they know all about our problems, but I promise you that they don't have the vaguest clue about the real issues.  

Seriously, they may know all about Polar bears and Eskimo's, but illegal aliens ? noooo waaay !  Come on, get real. How many illegal aliens does Canada have ? Two ?


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Well, there are Seniors that would say that the Seniors that are overly compassionate and/or nice can make some pretty stupid mistakes. Even family members of a Senior will say that, when they find out what their Senior family member done.
> 
> As far as how kind and compassionate you are, you're the one who has "Fun Loving" under their Avatar, Right?


I’ll agree with that . Truce! And I’m no longer fun loving. 



Traveler said:


> People in the frozen north may THINK they know all about our problems, but I promise you that they don't have the vaguest clue about the real issues.
> 
> Seriously, they may know all about Polar bears and Eskimo's, but illegal aliens ? noooo waaay !  Come on, get real. How many illegal aliens does Canada have ? Two ?


I suspect using terms like ‘the frozen North, polar bears and Eskimos that you are referring to me. :shrug:

You are right. I don’t know all about your problems. In fact, I’m still trying to figure out what an illegal alien is.
Using the only terminology I know, we don’t have any illegal aliens here in Canada . As far as I know , no country on this planet has illegal aliens,  but then again;  I’m too busy running with polar bears to know. 

I can live with that :yes:    :lofl:


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Just making a point that foreigners don't truly know what our problems are. You may have heard a few news articles BUT there can be no possible substitute for living with the problem day in and day out. 

I live with that problem every single day. I go to the market and I can't find anyone who speaks English. I have had a knife pulled on me by Mexicans. I have been robbed by Mexicans. 

Do you honestly think that listening to a few news stories can give you the remotest idea of my world ?

I have a suggestion for anyone who wants to get a glimmer of what America is becoming, watch the film, starring James Edward Olmos, "American Me".


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## Don M. (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Just making a point that foreigners don't truly know what our problems are. You may have heard a few news articles BUT there can be no possible substitute for living with the problem day in and day out.
> I live with that problem every single day. I go to the market and I can't find anyone who speaks English. I have had a knife pulled on me by Mexicans. I have been robbed by Mexicans.
> Do you honestly think that listening to a few news stories can give you the remotest idea of my world ?



More and more people are leaving California in recent years.  Between ridiculous housing prices, the highest taxes in the nation, and an increasing crime rate, the Only demographic that is moving TO California are the Latinos.  A person who presently owns a home there could profit nicely by selling out, and moving to a different State....the price of the home sale in California would set them up in a nicer house, and probably leave a fair amount of cash extra.  

http://www.olda.org/ca-exodus-2018-5-reasons-people-moving-california/


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Don, that sure is the literal truth. I can't think of a single other Caucasian who lives in my neighborhood. Not one ! The only way I even SEE another Caucasian is to travel 20 miles. No joke. I'm serious.


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## rgp (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> I definitely agree with you about the illegals. Thing is, as far as "a chance to live and prosper"..........many of them send most of their money back to Mexico to their families there. They will pack many into an apartment, sleeping on the floor and couch.
> 
> I think today, the only way to "live and prosper" is to have a college degree or love a good paying manual work job, like roofing.




   "I think today, the only way to "live and prosper" is to have a college degree or love a good paying manual work job, like roofing."

 I must disagree there...I never had a college degree...nor do I do roofing. But I did have a tech job, that I luv'd , provided for me very well, and provided a very nice retirement.

As for this;....

"Thing is, as far as "a chance to live and prosper"..........many of them send most of their money back to Mexico to their families there. They will pack many into an apartment, sleeping on the floor and couch."

As long as they stay legal ?...what they do with their money, is their business.
Sleep on the floor,...sleep on the couch...obey the law, pay your taxes & I'm fine with the rest.

I'm told...that many of the European immigrant families from back when "my people" immigrated here did much the same....to save money.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

I think the point ClassicRocker was making is that when there are tens of millions of Mexicans sending money out of the country the other country gets richer and America gets poorer. Simple economics. It is always better to keep the money within the "family". In this case the family is America.


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## BobF (May 3, 2018)

Right now our ideas of having immigrants is very primitive and asking for major problems.   Look to the countries like Sweden, Norway, and Denmark as examples of how these immigrants will violate the national laws.

In believe that all, and others in that part of the world have had to cut down on what they allow to immigrate and tightened up their old laws to end the immigration with those the government has already preapproved before they can arrive.

In the past a man and family would be accepted.   They continued to speak their national language and asked for parents and cousins to come live with them.    They pretty much took over large areas and restarted their own ways and drove off the natives.

Recently their laws were changed and only a person pre approved could arrive.   No family could come and for 2 years their was no special ways of living.   They needed to have jobs.   They had to learn the local language.   Eventually they could invite a wife and children and if approved they were allowed to arrive.

Their new rules in Denmark are much stricter, less forgiving, less for handouts and medical.

I hope the US will take that idea and change our set up too.   We don't want just hangers on as we really do want and need workers of all sorts.


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## Butterfly (May 3, 2018)

Lara said:


> Speaking of Welfare. It makes no sense to me that the growing number of homeless Americans don't qualify for Welfare Benefits because you have to have an address (and a low-paying job?) in order to qualify. But that's not a requirement for illegal immigrants if they request asylum. Homelessness has reached epic proportions in Southern CA. And don't even get me started with the amount of homeless Veterans sleeping on the streets. Shouldn't we be taking care of American citizens first? And repair our mental health programs first that is often the root of the problems?
> 
> I saw a cartoon (I don't think it's anything to laugh about but it's probably true) that said, " If you took their welfare checks away from them, they'd deport themselves." Most don't want to be Americans. They want to make money in the US while enjoying benefits and then send their money back home (Mexico) to their large families. Not all but most.



Federal law says that illegal  immigrants may not receive FEDERAL benefits.  A state can pass a law to pay them state benefits, but illegal immigrants are barred from receiving federal "welfare" benefits, regardless of what so may people say or believe to the contrary. 

Asylum applicants are barred from receiving federal benefits during the duration of the time they are waiting for a decision on whether or not their claim of asylum is granted.  This is supposed to be within about 6 months, but usually takes longer than that.  They are also not allowed to work legally during that time.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Actually, I think it may already be too late.  Way too much liberalism has resulted in the horrible mess we now face. it is one thing to have compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves, BUT it is another thing entirely to do so at the expense of the nation. A little compassion is a good thing but not when it deprives our own family of needed resources. 

America is like the Titanic which has already struck the iceberg. We are sinking. The only question now is how do we buy time in order to save the most number of lives possible. Those who are pro unlimited immigration are, in essence saying, "Hey, my feet aren't wet yet. What's the big problem".


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## Butterfly (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Not really! It's much more about all the illegals that want to come into America, stay, but not become Americans. It's also about the crime and drugs. Not saying that all of them have something to do with the drug cartel or crime, but...........
> It's about the businesses that hire illegals.



There is NO PATHWAY for people who are in the United States to apply for citizenship -- the the reason they do "not become Americans" is because they CANNOT do so if they entered the country illegally.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Federal law says that illegal  immigrants may not receive FEDERAL benefits.  A state can pass a law to pay them state benefits, but illegal immigrants are barred from receiving federal "welfare" benefits, regardless of what so may people say or believe to the contrary.
> 
> Asylum applicants are barred from receiving federal benefits during the duration of the time they are waiting for a decision on whether or not their claim of asylum is granted.  This is supposed to be within about 6 months, but usually takes longer than that.  They are also not allowed to work legally during that time.




I don't suppose it ever occurred that people sometimes lie. California law specifically prohibits state employees from asking about citizenship (courtesy of Gov. Jerry Brown). Thus, it is the simplest thing in the world to go to any county welfare office (in CA.) and get food stamp and a housing allowance. All that is needed is a valid driver's license (illegals are allowed to have CA driver's license's) and a piece of mail, with a valid address and , PRESTO BOOMO, instant free stuff.


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## Butterfly (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I don't suppose it ever occurred that people sometimes lie. California law specifically prohibits state employees from asking about citizenship (courtesy of Gov. Jerry Brown). Thus, it is the simplest thing in the world to go to any county welfare office (in CA.) and get food stamp and a housing allowance. All that is needed is a valid driver's license (illegals are allowed to have CA driver's license's) and a piece of mail. with a valid address and , PRESTO BOOMO, free stuff.
> 
> Sorry butterfly, your ideas don't work.



I did not state my ideas, I stated the law.  If you don't like the law or the way it works, change it -- California is one of the states that has state benefits for illegal immigrants.  

BTW, qualifying for FEDERAL benefits takes more than a driver's license.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I did not state my ideas, I stated the law.  If you don't like the law or the way it works, change it -- California is one of the states that has state benefits for illegal immigrants.
> 
> BTW, qualifying for FEDERAL benefits takes more than a driver's license.



*
Food stamps ARE federal benefits. I think you better check the laws again. food stamps (EBT) are administered by the United States Dept of Agriculture .*


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> People in the frozen north may THINK they know all about our problems, but I promise you that they don't have the vaguest clue about the real issues.
> 
> Seriously, they may know all about Polar bears and Eskimo's, but illegal aliens ? noooo waaay !  Come on, get real. How many illegal aliens does Canada have ? Two ?


You are  misinformed. We have thousands of miles of  border, many peeps get through. Also, where I live, it is a Maritime Temperate Zone, hardly frozen. Neither Inuit nor polar bear country. I suspect many Canucks know far more about American issues than many of  our American brethren know about Canadian ones, at least according to Sifuphil. I would never refer to America in the manner of  the anti Canadian rhetoric you have posted here.


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> You are misinformed. We have thousands of miles of unmanned borders, peeps get through. Also, where I live, it is a Maritime Temperate zone, hardly frozen. Neither Inuit nor polar bear country. I suspect many canucks know far more about American issues than our American brethren know about Canadian ones, at least according to Sifuphil.



And not that this is at all a complaint but the town I use to live  in as a child is no longer anything like it used to be. 
If I were to go back there today I would most certainly be a minority and I am not exaggerating. It’s like being in a completely different country. 

I now understand what it’s like to be a minority which is probably a good thing because I couldn’t relate before. 
Polarbear country..... lol


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

As someone said up thread , "You run your railroad, we will run ours". I'm not too keen on foreigners telling us how to run our country.


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Who are the foreigners telling him how to run ‘their’ country? 
I don’t see any such posts anywhere. :shrug:


Lies!


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Polarbear country..... lol




Perhaps I'm mistaken. Polar Bears are not in Canada. it must be Hawaii I'm thinking of.   :winter1:


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

What do polar bears have to do with running your country?
YOU are the one who mentioned polar bears! ( as ridiculous as that is )


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## RadishRose (May 3, 2018)




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## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> View attachment 51763


Hahahaha.


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Aren’t they the cutest?


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> What do polar bears have to do with running your country?
> YOU are the one who mentioned polar bears! ( as ridiculous as that is )




Polar bears have absolutely nothing to do with running my country. You are being teased. It's a joke.


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## IKE (May 3, 2018)




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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Polar bears have absolutely nothing to do with running my country. You are being teased. It's a joke.



Ohhhhh I’m being teased? 

Hummmm really ! :what1:


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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

IKE said:


> View attachment 51767



Soooo romantic :heart:


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## Shalimar (May 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Soooo romantic :heart:


Sigh, isn’t it?


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## IKE (May 3, 2018)




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## RadishRose (May 3, 2018)

Oh, I am SO there!  :love_heart:


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## RadishRose (May 3, 2018)




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## IKE (May 3, 2018)




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## Keesha (May 3, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> View attachment 51771



Oh now we have Canadian penguins sharing their Coke with polar bears :glitter-heart:


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## john19485 (May 3, 2018)

Drop the bomb , problem solved


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

john19485 said:


> Drop the bomb , problem solved




haha On whom ?


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## john19485 (May 3, 2018)

Just BS ing, but, I had some people come see me one time in Vietnam, President  Thieu had a C-130 setting on a runway, with thirty million in gold bars ,and they were going to try and take the plane , and gold , they wanted me to go with them , they had this well planned out, anyone remember this, I wanted nothing to do with it. Well I'll be 70 on May 28 , doen not much matter, just wondering what happen to the guys.


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## Traveler (May 3, 2018)

ClassicRockr said:


> Without a doubt, you will get "hate mail" (replies) from this. But, people have to, MUST, understand where you are coming from as well as those that feel the way you do. Without a doubt our Nation is in a battle within itself. Heck, we don't need a War on our soil, we already have one going on amongst society.




Yes. I also find this a most troubling aspect of our society. There are battles within battles. The left Vs, the right, black Vs, white, brown vs, white, feminists Vs conservative men (and a smaller group of women) Class Vs, class, Atheist's Vs. believers, those who believe we should fight against terrorism Vs, those who are not willing to fight, LGBTQ Vs. straights, and, in keeping with this thread, whose who favor unlimited immigration Vs. those who say enough is enough,  gun rights advocates V.s those who would ban guns, vegetarians V.s meat eaters . And, Congress is so involved in internecine warfare that it is amazing that anything is accomplished. 

Hell, I could go on for pages and I see no end in sight. I do not see any group willing to have the slightest amount of patience for change, Everyone seems to want it all NOW ! I surely do not know how it will end, but I fear serious violence is in our  immediate future.


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## Butterfly (May 4, 2018)

Traveler said:


> *
> Food stamps ARE federal benefits. I think you better check the laws again. food stamps (EBT) are administered by the United States Dept of Agriculture .*




California has its own food assistance program, called Cal-Fresh, which is the one which can pay benefits to immigrants.  It is a California state, not federal program.  The below is from the Cal-Fresh website:

*California Food Assistance Program (CFAP)*


*What is CFAP?* 
 The State of California provides *state-funded food stamps through the  California Food Stamp Program (CFAP) for qualified non-citizens who do  not qualify for federal benefits. *CFAP benefits are issued through the  same case as federal food stamp benefits. 

*Eligibility Requirements* 

 In order to be eligible to CFAP, the Legal Permanent Resident (LPR)  non-citizen must currently be ineligible for federal food stamp benefits  solely due to his/her immigration status under the Personal  Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (PRWORA) of 1996. 
 Non-citizens who are eligible to CFAP benefits indefinitely are non-citizens who:

Have been legally residing in the United States as a LPR non-citizen prior to August 22, 1996; or
Are battered or abused or
Are  qualified non-citizens who are no longer federally eligible under the  seven-year time limited federal eligibility (all except Amerasians or  conditional entrants); or

Are  otherwise eligible for the program but were sponsored into the United  States on or after August 22, 1996 and one of the following verified  situations apply: 
 The sponsor has died; or 
The sponsor is disabled; or 
The  applicant, after entry into the United States is a victim of abuse by  the sponsor or the spouse of the sponsor if the spouse is living with  the sponsor 


*Contact Us*

CalFresh Benefits Helpline
    1-877-847-3663     
Other Contact Numbers​ *Quick Links *​ Women, Infants and Children Nutrition Program 
Food and Nutrition Service 
USDA​ CalFresh Program Fact Sheet (This will be a link to a PDF.An updated version of this fact sheet will be coming soon)​ CalFresh Outreach 
CalFresh Resource Center 
County Contact Numbers 
Program Information 
FAQs​ Eligibility and Issuance Requirements Nondiscrimination Statement 
Regulations and Policy Guidance
Forms and Brochures
All County Letters
All County Information Notices​ *Related Programs*

California Food Assistance Program
Direct Certification
Disaster CalFresh
Employment and Training (E&T)
Restaurant Meals Program
Supplemental Nutrition ​


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## Lara (May 4, 2018)

john19485 said:


> Just BS ing, but, I had some people come see me one time in Vietnam, President  Thieu had a C-130 setting on a runway, with thirty million in gold bars ,and they were going to try and take the plane , and gold , they wanted me to go with them , they had this well planned out, anyone remember this, I wanted nothing to do with it. Well I'll be 70 on May 28 , doen not much matter, just wondering what happen to the guys.


John, maybe you know if it's true or false...one link said he had the gold in the plane and the other link says his plan to take the gold failed because his government collapsed before he had a chance to remove the gold from the Vietnam central bank. It sounds like you may be a witness to solve the controversy as to whether it's a rumor or fact.

Several days before the Communists moved into Thieu's office in the presidential palace, South Vietnam's President Thieu resigned and fled to exile in Thailand, then to a London suburb of Wimbledon, and finally to the US to be with his 3 children in Newton Massachusetts in 2001 where he died of a stroke.

There wasn't gold...https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/30/...an-thieu-b-1924-exile-on-newberry-street.html

There was gold....http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/capsule/event/1975-04-21


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## Traveler (May 4, 2018)

Yes, I am well aware that it is also called Cal-Fresh.  What I am trying to explain is that Cal-Fresh, or food stamp or EBT, whatever you want to call it is funded through the Federal government. The federal government pays California "X' amount of millions of dollars to administer the food stamp program. California then turns around and does what it bloody well pleases.    As I said before, the state of California is at war with the federal government and does not pay one bit of attention to what the feds want. 

The CA state system does not care one bit about Federal law. The California government PROTECTS ILLEGALS. 

Example: when the border patrol or I.C.E. or homeland security goes to county jails or state prisons and they want to see a wanted criminal (Federal crimes) they are told, "Sorry, we never heard of that guy"  And , "those 20 other guys on your list ? We never heard of them either"  This is followed by a sarcastic smile. CALIFORNIA FORBIDS ANY STATE EMPLOYEE FROM ASKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION STATUS OR TALKING TO THE FEDS ABOUT ILLEGALS. 

But, I will be sure to tell all my Mexican neighbors, some of them illegals, what you said. I'm sure it'll get a big laugh. And just in case you still don't get it, Mexicans, REAL MEXICANS who live full time in Mexico, not only get food stamps but also health insurance. Their making fools of us. Of course this is illegal but they don't give a ...

Just in case people wonder how this is possible, it's so simple.  Lets say Mrs. Munoz, who lives in Mexico, has a sister or cousin or good friend who lives legally in the U.S.   Her sister sits down and writes out rent receipts for the last 12 months. Mrs Munoz has mail delivered to her sisters house. Mrs. Munoz goes and gets a CA driver's license. She now has valid proof positive that she lives in the county. Instant Cal Fresh/food stamps and a voter registration card.


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## ClassicRockr (May 4, 2018)

Well, this Thread has become highly interesting, very controversial, but very interesting.

Still on Travelers side though. America is in serious trouble and many just don’t care. It’s really unfortunate!! 



As for me, I sure hope something happens to stop a major problem.


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## Lara (May 4, 2018)

The Secure Fence Act 2006 authorized building a border fence between the US and Mexico. The Director of the Management and Budget Office has recently called attention to this when questioning why anyone is opposed to funding the wall.


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## WhatInThe (May 4, 2018)

*dangerous contraband also coming in*

The problem with unprotected borders or uncontrolled mass migration is that the country doesn't know what is coming in. What else is being smuggled-drugs, weapons, disease, contraband etc? People are not the only one's being smuggled across the border. Exotic and/or dangerous animals also being smuggled in cramped conditions to say the least. This tiger cub is an example.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tiger-found-duffle-bag-being-150416416.html

This is an associated issue that literally could come back to bite somebody in the butt.


----------



## rgp (May 4, 2018)

Lara said:


> The Secure Fence Act 2006 authorized building a border fence between the US and Mexico. The Director of the Management and Budget Office has recently called attention to this when questioning why anyone is opposed to funding the wall.




 Because they oppose anything that even hints of a Trump idea / solution.


----------



## Lara (May 4, 2018)

_"Immigration laws are the only laws that are discussed in terms of how to help people who break them." Sowell
_


----------



## Traveler (May 4, 2018)

Wow, Lara. Fantastic !  Spot on.


----------



## Stormy (May 4, 2018)

They already processed around 160 people from that caravan and only around 60 are still waiting. They must come into our country the proper way and not just sneak across the border or be hauled in box trucks to die and dehydrate in the hot sun. America is a compassionate and giving nation that has let many people from all over the world join us and enjoy the freedoms we all love our country for. We're just being smart the way we are doing things and nobody should criticize us for it. Canadians have no clue to the way illegal immigrants have caused problems with crime and safety and draining our economy they only have a fraction of our population. Traveler I don't know what the hell you're doing living where you are there are plenty of anytowns USA to live in the outskirts of that would be safer than where you are and you should just leave California unless you have ties there


----------



## Shalimar (May 4, 2018)

Stormy, regarding my purported ignorance regarding illegals, and their apparent behaviour, I am a Canadian, but Sifuphil, my fiancé, is an American, still residing in America. He certainly keeps me up to speed on the situation.


----------



## Traveler (May 4, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Stormy, regarding my purported ignorance regarding illegals, and their apparent behaviour, I am a Canadian, but Sifuphil, my fiancé, is an American, still residing in America. He certainly keeps me up to speed on the situation.




Thanks for the laugh. That's like getting a well balanced view of America from the Taliban. :crying:


----------



## Shalimar (May 4, 2018)

Pp





Traveler said:


> Thanks for the laugh. That's like getting a well balanced view of America from the Taliban. :crying:


Excuse me, who are you to make disparaging remarks about Sifuphil, and use Taliban as a reference point ?  Sifu spent decades instilling discipline and ethics in young students through the medium of Martial Arts, he lived his patriotism through serving others.


----------



## Keesha (May 4, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Pp
> Excuse me, who are you to make disparaging remarks about Sifuphil, and use Taliban as a reference point ?  Sifu spent decades instilling discipline and ethics in young students through the medium of Martial Arts, he lived his patriotism through serving others.


It was a bit harsh. I’m not sure why Shalimar. Maybe he doesn’t want us Canadians posting in his threads. 
After all, we can’t relate or understand. 
Perhaps I don’t but I try to. Anyway I’ll stop, if I have nothing of value to add.


----------



## john19485 (May 4, 2018)

No one takes away my Canadian Bacon, just ask mama





Keesha said:


> It was a bit harsh. I’m not sure why Shalimar. Maybe he doesn’t want us Canadians posting in his threads.
> After all, we can’t relate or understand.
> Perhaps I don’t but I try to. Anyway I’ll stop, if I have nothing of value to add.


----------



## Shalimar (May 4, 2018)

john19485 said:


> No one takes away my Canadian Bacon, just ask mama


Too funny! Lulz,


----------



## Keesha (May 4, 2018)

john19485 said:


> No one takes away my Canadian Bacon, just ask mama



Thank you :wave: :smug1:


----------



## Keesha (May 4, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Too funny! Lulz,



Ok I have to now ask a very important question Shalimar.
What does Lulz mean?


----------



## Shalimar (May 4, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok I have to now ask a very important question Shalimar.
> What does Lulz mean?


Fun, amusement.


----------



## Keesha (May 4, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Fun, amusement.



Oh! With those letters. Something I haven’t heard before but learn something new everyday. 
And here I said I’d stop blabbering in travelers thread. :grin:


----------



## Lara (May 4, 2018)

The reason California leaders and business owners don't want a wall is greed because wages would have to rise in CA  to a level where Americans would want the jobs currently taken by illegal aliens. 

Illegal immigrants, for generations, have worked the longest hours at the hardest jobs for the lowest pay. Jobs that are nearly impossible to fill.

They don't want to raise wages in California when they can get illegal Mexican workers to do hard labor for next to nothing. And they are already going against the Constitution. They want their own CA Constitution and already have a plan for it.


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

Yes, I agree that also is a factor. There is no question that "stoop" labor is a very grueling job. Darn few Americans would ever even consider such hard work. And if they did take those jobs, they surely would demand *much* higher wages and then the price of produce would sky-rocket across the nation. 
Yesterday I bought one yellow onion and I had to pay $.33  One lousy onion .33 !

P.S. Most of the remaining caravan of asylum seekers entered the U.S. this morning at 9 am.  258 in total. Another hundred or so decided that they are better off in Mexico, or so they claimed.  Realistically, I suspect they will be fence jumping soon.  When I crossed the border at 3pm, I saw a hundred or so, still camped out at Linea Nuevo (Mexican side of the border).


----------



## Lara (May 5, 2018)

You're certainly right that produce would skyrocket. I usually close my eyes at the grocery store and bite the bullet. But I did notice the other day that a tiny lime was 79 cents. Oh, and I always notice the price of avocados. You're lucky if you can get one for $2. Americans would do the jobs Mexicans are doing if the wage was high enough...like $30-40 an hour. It's back-breaking work in full sun. But we're not a third world country...we should pay what the job is worth. Fair is fair.

Btw, off topic, gas is going up this summer the highest it's been in 4 years.


----------



## Knight (May 5, 2018)

True stoop labor was the reason immigration laws were ignored but largely ignored is technology.
********************************************************
Advances in Agricultural Robots Make Immigrant Farm Labor Obsolete
Robot technology is getting smarter, smaller and cheaper. While this evolution is a growing threat to American jobs in general, the applications for agriculture make immigration truly outdated in that employment category, which is a good thing for this nation.


We know the argument: without largely illegal immigrant workers to pick the crops, food would rot in the fields, so deportations should stop. But even though that prediction never materializes, nevertheless we are told our food supply depends on open borders and welcoming lots of Mexican pickers.


But that dependence does not exist — if it ever did. When a robot weeding machine (Little Oz) can be rented for $300 per month as noted in the article below, that technology definitely makes foreign farm workers an unattractive financial choice for farmers.


Earlier farming robots like the harvester shown below were large and expensive.


http://www.limitstogrowth.org/artic...al-robots-make-immigrant-farm-labor-obsolete/




Reading the various media stories most if not all note the women & children make up the bulk of those seeking asylum. Is there really a mystery about the intent of this group?


----------



## Lara (May 5, 2018)

Interesting article Knight. You're right, technology makes the need for illegal farmworkers obsolete.

We have people waiting to come here legally so why are we rewarding those who come here illegally. We should be channeling our efforts and resources to those who want to come legally. And while we're at it, channel some of our time anf resources to the 49,000 vets living homeless on the streets.


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

For the life of me, I'll never understand the thinking of some people.  Jorge was a friend of mine. He had been taken into the U.S as a 4 year old. At some point during his childhood he became a legal but temporary alien. As an adult he *could *have taken the easy necessary steps to become a U.S. citizen. But he never did that, claiming he was too busy working and raising a family. 

Even still, all he had to do was go to the Federal authorities once every 10 years and register, to continue living legally in the U.S.  I asked him, several times, why he stopped registering. He replied, "There should be no border. I don't recognize any border. People should be able to live anywhere they please. To hell with the government. To hell with their laws".

Well, one evening, Jorge was stopped by the cops for making an illegal U-turn in Los Angeles. I think he was about age 50 at the time. The cop who stopped Jorge, ran a computer check and his name popped up with a federal "hold order". One thing led to another and Jorge found himself in the hands of immigration. 

At that point Jorge had two choices, remain in custody until an immigration trial, which would have taken 6 months to a year, OR be deported. Jorge chose deportation. Even after deportation he remained adamant. "NO borders. No government has any right to stop people living where they choose."  

Jorge, kept his attitude until he died, of liver failure complications, due to alcohol compumption, in Tijuana. In Mexico there are no free medical services and Jorge spent his last 3 days on this earth screaming, yes literally screaming in pain, until , finally his heart gave out. 

To this day I'll never understand Jorge's attitude. He kept saying, "F***  'em". To hell with the law"


----------



## Lara (May 5, 2018)

I understand what you mean. It does seem the steps to citizenship are so easy and yet some never do. The only thing that I can think of is that, deep inside, their heart belongs to their native country where their families are and they really have no desire to switch allegiance.

They just want to use the US to make money, free healthcare, and take care of their families back home. Our healthcare premiums go up every time an illegal enters our country and doesn't take the steps to citizenship.


----------



## Keesha (May 5, 2018)

john19485 said:


> No one takes away my Canadian Bacon, just ask mama



Its ok john. We’re not only use to it but can handle it 

https://www.google.ca/amp/ew.com/article/2012/10/12/canada-jokes/amp/


https://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyachen/...ill-appreciate?utm_term=.xjaW13oqY#.hr83eybBK


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

Of the aprox 10 million illegals in our country, I wonder how many are getting free medical care via health insurance OR just showing up at the hospital, getting the care and then never paying for ?


----------



## Butterfly (May 5, 2018)

Lara said:


> I understand what you mean. It does seem the steps to citizenship are so easy and yet some never do. The only thing that I can think of is that, deep inside, their heart belongs to their native country where their families are and they really have no desire to switch allegiance.
> 
> They just want to use the US to make money, free healthcare, and take care of their families back home. Our healthcare premiums go up every time an illegal enters our country and doesn't take the steps to citizenship.



The steps to citizenship are decidedly NOT easy.  It is a long, complicated and expensive process, sometimes taking years, even for a legal permanent resident.


----------



## Happyflowerlady (May 5, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Of the aprox 10 million illegals in our country, I wonder how many are getting free medical care via health insurance OR just showing up at the hospital, getting the care and then never paying for ?



This is definitely an important part of the whole scenario. If it were just people coming in and working for the fruits and vegetables season (which is mostly what used to happen), then this would not be such an issue.  
Where a lot of the problem comes in is that it is not just workers; but whole families, with a multitude of kids as well. Since the men are illegal, they find jobs where they can work and be paid in cash, to stop any money trace.  They do not pay any taxes like most American workers have to do, or anything into Social Security or medicare. 
However, they get all of the benefits from these programs. 
Since they do not show any kind of incomes, they can qualify for food stamps, low-income housing, free medical benefits, and sometimes SSI as well. 
This means that the whole family can live essentially for free, and save all of the money that they earn. 

Besides these benefits, there are a lot of charities and churches that give free groceries and other items to these people. The food pantry here always has the Hispanic women with all of their little kids running around while they are getting free groceries almost every day of the week, 
These women are well dressed in nice clothes, and the little kids have those shoes with the flashing lights on them, and most of the adults and the kids all have cell phones or tablets as well. 

It is not right that we have our elderly skimping by with old thrift store clothes and cheap ramen noodles to eat, while the illegal people feel that they have every right to come to this country and avail them selves of benefits that they have not worked for or contributed into in any way. 

As Traveler pointed out, many of these people think that laws do not matter and that they can live anywhere they want to, with no borders. 
They do not like what happens in their own country, but they want to come here and create the same lawlessness that they are trying to get away from in Mexico.


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

Exactly right, HappyFlowerLady.  Courtesy of the U.S tax payer. I don't understand why we can't take care of our own first.


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> The steps to citizenship are decidedly NOT easy.  It is a long, complicated and expensive process, sometimes taking years, even for a legal permanent resident.




(SIGH )  Oh, my. Another person who does not understand the law. 

To become a U.S. citizen is the simplest thing in the world.  1st, go and pick up a form N-400. Pay a small fee of $725, which INCLUDES the $640 citizenship application AND the $85 background check.  2nd. study the basic handbook for citizenship. 3rd, take the test. 4th wait for the swearing in ceremony.  THAT'S IT, FOLKS.

OF course we do have some people who believe everything should be free and super easy.

"Hi, I'm here to apply for my American citizenship.  It's 10 am  now. Do you think I could have it done by noon today ?"

"Yes, yes. I know there are several hundred thousand people in line ahead of me, from a hundred different nations BUT I'd rather not wait. "


----------



## C'est Moi (May 5, 2018)

Lara said:


> Interesting article Knight. You're right, technology makes the need for illegal farmworkers obsolete.
> 
> We have people waiting to come here legally so why are we rewarding those who come here illegally. We should be channeling our efforts and resources to those who want to come legally. And while we're at it, channel some of our time anf resources to the 49,000 vets living homeless on the streets.



I'm not at all convinced that technology would make farm workers obsolete.   That said, there is NO REASON why immigrants who want to enter the US for seasonal work could not do so legally with a work visa... pay taxes, etc.


----------



## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> I'm not at all convinced that technology would make farm workers obsolete.   That said, there is NO REASON why immigrants who want to enter the US for seasonal work could not do so legally with a work visa... pay taxes, etc.




There are several work programs. The San Ysidro/Tijuana land port *alone*, handles, 8,000,000 border crossings/year. Many, of them work in the U.S., and live in Mexico. 

Part of the problem is that SOME can not pass a criminal background security check but still want to work in the U.S. Or they just do not want to wait their turn and so they enter illegally.  

Believe me, there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions who have valid temporary work permits. Another part of the problem is that the vast numbers of people who want to live in the U.S., FAR, FAR exceeds our ability to absorb them. Hence, the illegals.


----------



## Lara (May 5, 2018)

C'est Moi said:


> I'm not at all convinced that technology would make farm workers obsolete.


I was referring to Knight's article link regarding a gargantuan weed eating machine that can be rented for $300 a day and could replace the need for certain tasks of many farm workers. http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articl...abor-obsolete/


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## Traveler (May 5, 2018)

Lara said:


> I was referring to Knight's article link regarding a gargantuan weed eating machine that can be rented for $300 a day and could replace the need for certain tasks of many farm workers. http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articl...abor-obsolete/




Ah, ok. I was confused about what you meant. I know squat about farm equipment.


----------



## Lara (May 6, 2018)

Meanwhile, the US Ambassador to Mexico officially stepped down yesterday amid increased border threats. Last March, when she first announced she would leave, it was reported that she would possibly be replaced by a former CEO of GM and AT&T. I don't know if that has happened yet but Jacobsen is now officially gone.

Just a personal aside....AT&T is the worst company when it comes to customer service. I could go on and on and on and on.


----------



## Butterfly (May 6, 2018)

Happyflowerlady said:


> This is definitely an important part of the whole scenario. If it were just people coming in and working for the fruits and vegetables season (which is mostly what used to happen), then this would not be such an issue.
> Where a lot of the problem comes in is that it is not just workers; but whole families, with a multitude of kids as well. Since the men are illegal, they find jobs where they can work and be paid in cash, to stop any money trace.  They do not pay any taxes like most American workers have to do, or anything into Social Security or medicare.
> However, they get all of the benefits from these programs.
> Since they do not show any kind of incomes, they can qualify for food stamps, low-income housing, free medical benefits, and sometimes SSI as well.
> ...



Immigrants do not qualify for many of the programs to which you refer.

Here is a list of what federal benefits immigrants do and do not qualify for, with citations to the applicable federal law:
*
What Types of Welfare Are Immigrants Eligible For?*

  As of the 1996 welfare reform bill, the following applies to eligibility for federal and state funded welfare programs:



Legal immigrants are barred from all federal means-tested public  benefits for five years after entering the country and barred from SSI  and food stamps until citizenship. They are also barred from all federal  means-tested public benefits for five years.[SUP]1[/SUP] 
Benefits available to immigrants include school lunch and breakfast  programs, immunizations, emergency medical services, disaster relief,  and others programs that are necessary to protect life and safety as  identified by the attorney general, regardless of immigration status.[SUP]2[/SUP] 
Illegal immigrants are barred from the following federal public  benefits: grants, contracts, loans, licenses, retirement, welfare,  health, disability, public or assisted housing, post secondary  education, food assistance, and unemployment benefits. States are barred  from providing state or locally funded benefits to illegal immigrants  unless a state law is enacted granting such authority.[SUP]3[/SUP] 



Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (PRWORA) § 110. 
PRWORA § 411. Exceptions include refugees, asylees, those granted  withholding of deportation for their first five years in the U.S.,  veterans, active duty military, and their spouses and dependents. After  the five-year bar on federal benefits, states may offer Medicaid,  federal cash assistance (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families - TANF)  and services under the SSBG if deeming provisions are applied. 
PRWORA § 432.


----------



## Robusta (May 6, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> Immigrants do not qualify for many of the programs to which you refer.
> 
> Here is a list of what federal benefits immigrants do and do not qualify for, with citations to the applicable federal law:
> *
> ...



*There you go again. Screwing up a good rant with actual facts!
*While my area has migrant workers in the vineyards and orchards, many of the immigrants legal and not are year round residents. The most publicized of the ICE raids are at dairy farms,which are not seasonal jobs.


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## Lara (May 6, 2018)

Butterfly, that reform bill you posted is from 1996. That was 22 years ago. 
It's been changed since then, parts scrapped, some replaced,  but I'm not an expert on the details.


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## NancyNGA (May 6, 2018)

Thank you Butterfly!  _Most_ of us really appreciate it.  I know how time-consuming it is to come up with facts.


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## fmdog44 (May 6, 2018)

Someone explain how they got through the border. I saw yesterday nearly all of them are inside California! Just a couple days ago they were still in Mexico.


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## NancyNGA (May 6, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Someone explain how they got through the border. I saw yesterday nearly all of them are inside California! Just a couple days ago they were still in Mexico.


If it's true it shouldn't be hard to find out, but it does take time.


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## Sunny (May 6, 2018)

It was magic, Fmdog44.  Besides all of them being criminals, they are practitioners of the black arts.


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## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

FMDOG, They got through the border by claiming they were in danger in their home county. There are several gapping a loop-holes in our laws which allow for people to claim asylum status. Federal law allows for almost instant entry into the U.S. under certain conditions. 

Whether those people are literally in danger is anybody's guess.


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Butterfly,  I went into some detail on how easy it is to *LIE *and get Federal benefits. If you choose to ignore what is actually happening, then I can't help you. 

We should not be surprised that if a person is willing to deliberately violate Federal law by crossing the border illegally, we should not be surprised if they also lie to get free stuff.

It is especially easy when states like California, actively assist illegal immigrants in violating Federal law.


----------



## Butterfly (May 6, 2018)

Lara said:


> Butterfly, that reform bill you posted is from 1996. That was 22 years ago.
> It's been changed since then, parts scrapped, some replaced,  but I'm not an expert on the details.



I do not believe it has changed materially since passage and is still in full force and effect.  Perhaps you can point out changes that I am unable to find.


----------



## Butterfly (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Butterfly,  I went into some detail on how easy it is to *LIE *and get Federal benefits. If you choose to ignore what is actually happening, then I can't help you.
> 
> We should not be surprised that if a person is willing to deliberately violate Federal law by crossing the border illegally, we should not be surprised if they also lie to get free stuff.
> 
> It is especially easy when states like California, actively assist illegal immigrants in violating Federal law.



I am not disputing that people lie to get benefits.  I am also not disputing that California provides benefits to immigrants, i.e., food assistance, etc.,  that are not available under federal law.  California reportedly has passed legislation that allows it to do so as a state, as the PRWORA allows states to do.


----------



## Sunny (May 6, 2018)

Um, there is no new caravan. These caravans have been in existence for years. Immigration from south of the border is the lowest it's been in years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/world/americas/caravans-migrants-mexico-trump.html


----------



## Lara (May 6, 2018)

Welfare Reform was good for 5 years (1996-2001) then expired. TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) is in effect today but also needs reforming. Changes have been made regarding restorations and programs (since welfare reform of 1996) but non-citizen eligibility hasn't changed. An executive order was signed in 2017 for more changes but is still awaiting congressional attention.

"In the years since the implementation of the [welfare reform] law, Congress has made several important federal restorations for noncitizens in the Food Stamp and Supplemental Security Income Programs but noncitizen eligibility rules for TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) and Medicaid remain as they were legislated by PRWORA. However, because the law has expired (5 years) and must be reauthorized, the possibility for future changes in the eligibility of noncitizens is in the hands of federal policymakers. As they continue to hash over issues of welfare eligibility, "Congress will debate how to balance fairness with necessary budget considerations. This chapter details the changes in immigrant eligibility for welfare benefits, situates the changes in a broad political and social context, and addresses future policy concerns."
https://www.brookings.edu/research/welfare-reform-and-immigrants/


----------



## Aunt Bea (May 6, 2018)

I don't see temporary benefits as an expense as much I see it as an investment in people and our future as a nation.

I would rather see my tax dollars go towards feeding educating and providing healthcare to folks, until they get on their feet, than live with the consequences of not providing such basic human services.

Imagine the loss of our own personal freedom if we have to produce proof of citizenship each time we have a problem. How many people legal and illegal would have to die on the side of the road because they cannot produce proof of citizenship papers to ensure proper medical care.

Imagine the increase in crime that would occur if poor people are deprived of access to basic human services in the greatest nation on earth.

Imagine the vast sums of money wasted fighting the poor instead of helping them.

It really doesn't matter to me which side of the border these people are on, I just don't have the stomach for waging war on the poor and if that is unAmerican then so be it.


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Um, there is no new caravan. These caravans have been in existence for years. Immigration from south of the border is the lowest it's been in years.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/world/americas/caravans-migrants-mexico-trump.html




In 2017 there were 310,351 arrests for illegally crossing the border and they were promptly deported.  :bonvoyage:

No dejes que la puerta te goipee en el culo a la salida.


----------



## NancyNGA (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't see temporary benefits as an expense as much I see it as an investment in people and our future as a nation.
> 
> I would rather see my tax dollars go towards feeding educating and providing healthcare to folks, until they get on their feet, than live with the consequences of not providing such basic human services.
> 
> ...


Great post, Bea.  I think so too, but you said it better than I ever could have.


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

When it gets right down to it, there are two kinds of Americans. Those who believe in the law and those who support unlimited numbers of illegal aliens.


----------



## Sunny (May 6, 2018)

Well put, Bea. :applause2:


----------



## fmdog44 (May 6, 2018)

s





Sunny said:


> Um, there is no new caravan. These caravans have been in existence for years. Immigration from south of the border is the lowest it's been in years.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/world/americas/caravans-migrants-mexico-trump.html



So, you're saying they are STILL coming and that is unacceptable. I wonder ho many Americans that believe in open borders have South Americans and Mexicans in their homes for social tea & chat?


----------



## Shalimar (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't see temporary benefits as an expense as much I see it as an investment in people and our future as a nation.
> 
> I would rather see my tax dollars go towards feeding educating and providing healthcare to folks, until they get on their feet, than live with the consequences of not providing such basic human services.
> 
> ...


I applaud your humanity.


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Well put, Bea. :applause2:




I was wondering if maybe you also support free food stamps for Mexicans who live in MEXICO ?


----------



## Knight (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea how does wanting secure borders translate into waging war on the poor? 


With 4 borders. East coast, west coast, northern & southern entry points not caring about borders would mean access for the entire world of poor to come to America. How many of the world's poor could America care for? I hope you weren't limiting your caring to only those from south of the border. Is there a point where mass entry into America by the poor from poverty stricken countries that helped their poor to enter America  would cause you concern?

Like law you can't have it both ways.


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> s
> 
> So, you're saying they are STILL coming and that is unacceptable. I wonder ho many Americans that believe in open borders have South Americans and Mexicans in their homes for social tea & chat?




Good one, FMDOG. Probably not. However,they are delighted to spend the taxpayers money.


----------



## Keesha (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't see temporary benefits as an expense as much I see it as an investment in people and our future as a nation.
> 
> I would rather see my tax dollars go towards feeding educating and providing healthcare to folks, until they get on their feet, than live with the consequences of not providing such basic human services.
> 
> ...


 

Since I’m not American , I have been staying out of this conversation but I have to state what a wise woman you are.:heart:


----------



## Shalimar (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Good one, FMDOG. Probably not. However,they are delighted to spend the taxpayers money.


How could one possibly know who entertains whom in their house? Pure speculation.


----------



## RadishRose (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea, great post. You are forward thinking and see farther ahead than many people I've heard on this subject.


----------



## Aunt Bea (May 6, 2018)

Knight said:


> Aunt Bea how does wanting secure borders translate into waging war on the poor?
> 
> 
> With 4 borders. East coast, west coast, northern & southern entry points not caring about borders would mean access for the entire world of poor to come to America. How many of the world's poor could America care for? I hope you weren't limiting your caring to only those from south of the border. Is there a point where mass entry into America by the poor from poverty stricken countries that helped their poor to enter America would cause you concern?
> ...



I'm all in favor of having secure borders, of registering immigrants that come into the country and of punishing people that commit crimes once they are here.  If we allowed immigrants to come into the country in an orderly fashion and issued work permits to them I don't believe that honest people would risk their lives and the lives of their families by attempting to enter illegally.

I don't know what the number is but we can support millions of new people in this country if they are willing to work and contribute to our future. 

The notion that all of the people entering the country will attempt to live off of the taxpayers for the rest of their lives is IMO nonsense.

As far as the law goes, we elected people to write them and if those laws are not working in a way that benefits us we can elect some folks to change them.

IMO it all boils down to doing what is right and helping these people feels right to me.


----------



## fmdog44 (May 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I don't see temporary benefits as an expense as much I see it as an investment in people and our future as a nation.
> 
> _What kind of nation?-
> 
> ...



-W_aging war o_n poor people? If America wages war on poor people why are poor people from all over the world dyeing to get here? Please list the charities for the poor you and your angel-like friends  are currently active in.-


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## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Tax and spend will never change. Strange how some Americans care more about foreigners than they do about other Americans. I can't help but wonder if they are the same people who spit on returning Vietnam Vets and called them "baby killers".


----------



## Aunt Bea (May 6, 2018)

Keep them coming guys, it won't change my feelings about this issue!


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## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

We need THE WALL and we need it NOW ! We once had a wonderful country but those days are long passed.

*In my opinion we also need to set up special camps for anyone caught entering illegally. 60 days incarceration for 1st offenders, 6 months for 2nd offenders and 10 years in Federal maximum security prison for 3rd offenders. No more "catch and release". 

Children could be flown back to the country they came from and handed over to their relatives. 

We need to send the message that breaking Federal law is not acceptable. The camps I have in mind would serve nutritious food BUT food they do not enjoy. Health would be guarded BUT it would not be a pleasant experience. No cigarettes, no drinks except water.

If that STILL did not get the message across then the ante could be upped.  Our current government is too waaay liberal and we desperately need to toughen up. 
*


----------



## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> We need THE WALL and we need it NOW ! We once had a wonderful country but those days are long passed.
> 
> *In my opinion we also need to set up special camps for anyone caught entering illegally. 60 days incarceration for 1st offenders, 6 months for 2nd offenders and 10 years in Federal maximum security prison for 3rd offenders. No more "catch and release".
> 
> ...



Gee, wonder where the money would come from for all that.....

*'Children could be flown back to the country they came from and handed over to their relatives.'
*.....and just how do you propose that should be done?
(this should be interesting)


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Think on it awhile. Maybe you'll figure it out. Maybe.


----------



## Butterfly (May 6, 2018)

Lara said:


> Welfare Reform was good for 5 years (1996-2001) then expired. TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) is in effect today but also needs reforming. *Changes have been made regarding restorations and programs (since welfare reform of 1996) but non-citizen eligibility hasn't changed. *An executive order was signed in 2017 for more changes but is still awaiting congressional attention.
> 
> "In the years since the implementation of the [welfare reform] law, Congress has made several important federal restorations for noncitizens in the Food Stamp and Supplemental Security Income Programs but noncitizen eligibility rules for TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) and Medicaid remain as they were legislated by PRWORA. However, because the law has expired (5 years) and must be reauthorized, the possibility for future changes in the eligibility of noncitizens is in the hands of federal policymakers. As they continue to hash over issues of welfare eligibility, "Congress will debate how to balance fairness with necessary budget considerations. This chapter details the changes in immigrant eligibility for welfare benefits, situates the changes in a broad political and social context, and addresses future policy concerns."
> https://www.brookings.edu/research/welfare-reform-and-immigrants/



I believe you will find, upon further research, that it was the block grants of money (for years through 2002)to states that expired, not the whole legislation, and your own quotation above states that non-citizen eligibility has NOT changed.


----------



## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Think on it awhile. Maybe you'll figure it out. Maybe.



Can't
need yer wisdom in regard to the handing over to relatives part

what/which relatives?

drop 'em off on the porch?

leave 'em at the airport?


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Keep thinkin'


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## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Keep thinkin'



No sir

I see too many difficulties to make that feasible 

Need yer thoughts, mine are no good


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

Gary O' said:


> Gee, wonder where the money would come from for all that.....
> 
> *'Children could be flown back to the country they came from and handed over to their relatives.'
> *.....and just how do you propose that should be done?
> (this should be interesting)





Traveler said:


> Think on it awhile. Maybe you'll figure it out. Maybe.





Gary O' said:


> Can't
> need yer wisdom in regard to the handing over to relatives part
> 
> what/which relatives?
> ...





Traveler said:


> Keep thinkin'





Gary O' said:


> No sir
> 
> I see too many difficulties to make that feasible
> 
> Need yer thoughts, mine are no good



Keep thinkin'. You'll get there.


----------



## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Keep thinkin'. You'll get there.



Nope
not gettin' there

Have you gotten 'there'?

If so, please...share


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## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

There are many way to accomplish that. One of them is The International Red Cross. They already have the infrastructure to handle this kind of effort. They have an office/etc in every nation that I am aware of (except for The Red Crescent in Muslim nations).  
They could take the children under their wing and see to it that the kids were returned to their relatives in the country they came from.  This has the tremendous advantage that no-one could claim the kids were being neglected.

Barring that, there is The United Nations.

There are ALWAYS ways to accomplish anything. But. we must be *willing *to look for those ways.

*Without the will, nothing is possible.*


----------



## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> There are many way to accomplish that. One of them is The International Red Cross. They already have the infrastructure to handle this kind of effort. They have an office/etc in every nation that I am aware of (except for The Red Crescent in Muslim nations).
> They could take the children under their wing and see to it that the kids were returned to their relatives in the country they came from.  This has the tremendous advantage that no-one could claim the kids were being neglected.
> 
> Barring that, there is The United Nations.
> ...



See, this is where things get a bit foggy for me

Let's say I'm willing

How does one employ an international entity to remove children from their parents here in the US, and 'see to it' they were returned(?) to their relatives...which relatives?
Would the relatives have a say?
Would Mexico have a say?

Do these questions seem unreasonable?


----------



## Traveler (May 6, 2018)

First answer: 

The International Red Cross would *not *take the child from the parents. The U.S. government would just continue what it is already doing.
Which relatives ? Does that matter? Grandma, sister, Aunt etc. If the relatives refused to accept their own blood kin then the duty would fall on that nation (El Salvador, Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua or India if that's where they came from.)

And, no, that nation has no say in the matter. If that nation refused to house and feed their own citizen then the onus falls on them.  

2nd answer. The United States does not "employ" The International Red Cross.  It is already their mission to help the needy. 
If The International Red Cross refused, I suspect that they could be convinced to do the right thing. 

The United States can no longer be a dumping ground for the hordes of humanity. We *MUST *act and act *NOW.

*A few years of action like I describe, and the word would very, very quickly spread. Thus, the tsunami of people would slow to a trickle.


----------



## Gary O' (May 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> First answer:
> 
> The International Red Cross would *not *take the child from the parents. The U.S. government would just continue what it is already doing.
> Which relatives ? Does that matter? Grandma, sister, Aunt etc. If the relatives refused to accept their own blood kin then the duty would fall on that nation (El Salvador, Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua or India if that's where they came from.)
> ...



See, we're not quite 'there' are we?

*'And, no, that nation has no say in the matter'*
Please explain why

*'If The International Red Cross refused, I suspect that they could be convinced to do the right thing' *
Please explain 'convinced'


----------



## Traveler (May 7, 2018)

No, of course we are not there yet.  We, The United States is being forced to deal with a problem that rightly belongs to other nations. 

Every nation has a basic responsibility for its own own citizens. That is why they have no say in the matter. If I were president, (laughing)I'd say, "Your citizens, your problem. Deal with it"

As far as The International Red Cross is concerned, we do have some leverage. The United States is a source of funding, both private and governmental. Those financial resources can speak loudly. You know what they say,  money talks. Money convinces people and organizations to do almost anything. 

If it did not work out with the International Red Cross, we could turn to the United Nations. 

There are thousands of ways to raise funds. All we have to do is have the will to do so. 

If all else fails, we, The United States, can do the job. If we have the ability to move a dozen military divisions AND all their heavy equipment, half way around the world, we surely would have no problem moving a few hundred thousand children back to where they came from.

Lets look at the raw numbers, last year there were 312,311 thousand arrests of illegals who had crossed the border. That breaks down to 855/day. Lets say that 33% of them were children. That would be 282 children returning to Central America/day.  One single plane load /day.  An easy task.


----------



## Traveler (May 7, 2018)

Something calls to me. In need to be in the big trees.  I need to breathe air that has not been breathed before. So, I'm off to The Redwoods. Gone by dawn and well north of L.A.  before the sun rises.     Catch you on the flip side.


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## Aunt Bea (May 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> There are ALWAYS ways to accomplish anything. But. we must be *willing *to look for those ways.
> 
> *Without the will, nothing is possible.*



I agree!

Enjoy your day!!!


----------



## Gary O' (May 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Lets look at the raw numbers, last year there were 312,311 thousand arrests of illegals who had crossed the border. That breaks down to 855/day. Lets say that 33% of them were children. *That would be 282 children returning to Central America/day.  One single plane load /day.  An easy task*.


reminds me of a CPA I once worked around
coming to a meeting with a printout
'if we just got rid of the restrooms we'd save....'

Traveler, putting 282 kids on a plane is truly the easiest part of that synopsis
however
dispersing to 282 relatives...per day...maybe not so easy

I do appreciate reading your views

I might interject an 'if I were president' thought
I'd look within
remove the freebees....any
raise/enforce employer fines for hiring illegals

save a few bucks, make a few bucks

seems there'd be less interest in viewing our nation as candyland without contending with outside help, of which in dealing, would create even more issues

seems

I'm sure you'll enjoy yer trip thru the redwoods...always fascinating

safe travels


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## fmdog44 (May 7, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> Keep them coming guys, it won't change my feelings about this issue!



No one is asking you to change. We are just adding our takes, that's all. It would be hopeless if we all thought alike.


----------



## Knight (May 7, 2018)

There is a bigger picture than the small amount that ended up at the border waiting for their amnesty appeal to be heard. Absolutely no doubt poverty & living conditions where they come from are something they want to get away from. The real question is for how long and how many can America absorb of those? Success in gaining entry legally thru the amnesty process is bound to generate more seeking entry to America. 


I don't think I'll live long enough to see the effect of this.


Hispanic and Latino Americans accounted for 48% of the national population growth of 2.9 million between July 1, 2005, and July 1, 2006.[18] Immigrants and their U.S.-born descendants are expected to provide most of the U.S. population gains in the decades ahead.[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States


Toss in job loss due to technology, emerging economies competing with America for manufactured products, the predictions concerning social security & medicare. The list of reasons for demands on the tax base increases. Given that, 2nd. world if not 3rd. world status years from now doesn't seem impossible to me. 


Traveler ain't nature awe inspiring, Enjoy the fresh air & outdoors, while you can.


----------



## RadishRose (May 7, 2018)

Good place to hide out.


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## Knight (May 7, 2018)

In a March 2018 report, the Congressional Budget Office noted that a lower labor force participation rate is associated with lower gross domestic product and lower tax revenues. It is also associated with larger federal outlays, because people who are not in the labor force are more likely to enroll in federal benefit programs, including Social Security.


This past January, the Congressional Budget Office projected that the labor force participation rate will continue to decline over the next 30 years from the current 62.8 percent to 61.0 percent in 2027 and to 59.2 percent in 2047.
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...ericans-not-participating-labor-force-boomers


Meanwhile unskilled people from south of the border & a few other non Hispanic countries continue to illegally invade America. In my recent post about America's economic position in the world looking shaky to me, I thought I might be to pessimistic. After reading about population gain by Hispanics and the decline in the labor participation rate. Countries without borders may become a fact years from now. The good news is it won't cost taxpayers to convert to two languages for government services. Although it could come down to when calling "press #2 for English".


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## Don M. (May 7, 2018)

Knight said:


> There is a bigger picture than the small amount that ended up at the border waiting for their amnesty appeal to be heard. Absolutely no doubt poverty & living conditions where they come from are something they want to get away from. The real question is for how long and how many can America absorb of those? Success in gaining entry legally thru the amnesty process is bound to generate more seeking entry to America.



I think we are currently living in the "Peak" of Western civilization.  The past few decades....from about 1950...have seen some of the Best times for the Middle Class in the nations history.  However, Global demographics and overpopulation of the worlds most underprivileged is quickly leading to a crisis.  While the birth rates of "traditional" populations of North America and Europe...and even nations like Japan...have largely stabilized, and even begun to decline, the populations in Latin America, and Africa are ballooning.  These increasing populations are ill equipped to handle the challenges posed by technology, and the reduced need for manual labor.  The gaps between those able to support themselves, and those who must rely on "welfare" will only continue to grow.  While the U.S. is being overrun by Latino refugees, Europe is seeing a massive influx of those trying to escape the awful conditions in Africa and parts of the Middle East.  At some point....and not very far into the future....there is going to be a time when those who are self sufficient, and able to pay taxes, etc., are going to rebel at the increasing demands being placed on "social" needs.  We are going to see a "global" conflict that will determine the future of Humanity...and it will Not be nation vs. nation, but basically the Haves, vs. the Have Nots.  

A UN study back in the late 1990's placed the sustainable global Human population at around 5.8 billion.  We are already well over 7 billion, headed for 9 billion by mid-century, and potentially 12 billion by the year 2200.  Just as there may be a "tipping point" in Climate Change, there will also be a "point of no return" with Human population.  When those who are working see a major portion of their assets going to those who haven't the means, or the willingness to share the load, the situation will quickly deteriorate.  

Bringing large number of uneducated and unskilled people into our society is going to prove to be an unsustainable burden.


----------



## Gary O' (May 7, 2018)

Don M. said:


> I think we are currently living in the "Peak" of Western civilization.  The past few decades.... .



Excellent post


----------



## Gary O' (May 7, 2018)

Don M. said:


> A UN study back in the late 1990's placed the sustainable global Human population at around 5.8 billion.  We are already well over 7 billion, headed for 9 billion by mid-century, and potentially 12 billion by the year 2200.  Just as there may be a "tipping point" in Climate Change, there will also be a "point of no return" with Human population.  When those who are working see a major portion of their assets going to those who haven't the means, or the willingness to share the load, the situation will quickly deteriorate.



A lot to consider, Don, certainly is
History shows quite a few 200 year spans of ruling nations
Economy played huge roles
Wars actually helped, in a weird way
Can’t imagine an all-out war now
Folks get skittish thinking about the ‘what ifs’
Living off grid for three years, my friends in town tell me that’s the way when TSHTF
Heh, for a few weeks, months tops

The realities are no less than overwhelming
We exist, any economy exits, via one thing…confidence

At present, China wants to have confidence in America and Europe
The Chinese are quite robust at present
But they know what they must have to thrive
They need a confident customer

It’s a world thing now
Africa, India…too volatile 
Mexico, all of America, too expensive
Indonesia, tapped out
Europe, hanging, watching, hoping
Russia, weird, withdrawn, a somewhat inter-economy (buying from the company store)

Our next generation?
Hope is tough to maintain

Answers?
I got nuthin’

Maybe biblical prophecy coming to fruition

Maybe, if we have time, we (humans) can find our way to another, sustainable planet

*Heh, who then would be the illegal aliens? *


----------



## john19485 (May 7, 2018)

I'm sure we  already have a base on Mars, (just my BS)


Gary O' said:


> A lot to consider, Don, certainly is
> History shows quite a few 200 year spans of ruling nations
> Economy played huge roles
> Wars actually helped, in a weird way
> ...


----------



## Shalimar (May 7, 2018)

john19485 said:


> I'm sure we  already have a base on Mars, (just my BS)


Didn’t one of the astronauts finally admit there were alien spacecraft on the moon and they told the earthlings to keep mum about it? Interesting.


----------



## john19485 (May 7, 2018)

Takes off from Edwards Air force Base, you take a guess what I'm talking about, now I'm just BS ing. I don't know anything


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## john19485 (May 7, 2018)

I've got to go, a friend of mind is having his ship refitted with a rail gun , I've got to talk with him, I'm going to see his mom in the morning


----------



## Shalimar (May 7, 2018)

john19485 said:


> Takes off from Edwards Air force Base, you take a guess what I'm talking about, now I'm just BS ing. I don't know anything


I don’t know nuffin about nuffin.


----------



## jujube (May 8, 2018)

As the astronaut who landed on a planet of beautiful 12-foot-tall women said, "Take me to your ladder.  I'll see your leader later."


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## john19485 (May 8, 2018)

It's a good day.


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## Lara (May 8, 2018)

"200 or so illegals have exposed to the whole world now, the immigration loop-hole in our law that has allowed illegals into our country. They're given a court date, notice to appear, and then POOF, they disappear into our society, and never show up for their asylum hearing. Instead, they head up to the swap meet in Los Angeles, and buy fraudulent papers, social security cards with numbers, photo ID, whatever they want. Then they're off to the races, free housing, free food, free medical care, and of course the freedom to thumb their nose at our culture and demand that we speak spanish and we press one for english...all the while, dumping the customs and culture of their depraved vile lawless third world society into our society.

The question is, how many more caravans will exploit our porous border and the swiss-cheese-like immigration law before THIS republic becomes a hell-hole third world country like the one they just left?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAzaArF2GEY

I noticed a member posted they would always support the poor no matter what. Several other members here agreed with her post. That is very sweet. I too have always helped the poor, and for that matter America as a whole has always helped the poor...more than any other nation. But if caravans continue pouring into our country and manipulate the system, never to assimilate, is this sustainable?


----------



## fmdog44 (May 8, 2018)

China will rule economically by 2050 at the latest.


----------



## Butterfly (May 9, 2018)

Lara said:


> "200 or so illegals have exposed to the whole world now, the immigration loop-hole in our law that has allowed illegals into our country. They're given a court date, notice to appear, and then POOF, they disappear into our society, and never show up for their asylum hearing. Instead, they head up to the swap meet in Los Angeles, and buy fraudulent papers, social security cards with numbers, photo ID, whatever they want. Then they're off to the races, *free housing, free food, *free medical care,and of course the freedom to thumb their nose at our culture and demand that we speak spanish and we press one for english...all the while, *dumping the customs and culture of their depraved vile lawless third world society into our society*.
> 
> The question is, how many more caravans will exploit our porous border and the swiss-cheese-like immigration law before THIS republic becomes a hell-hole third world country like the one they just left?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAzaArF2GEY
> 
> I noticed a member posted they would always support the poor no matter what. Several other members here agreed with her post. That is very sweet. I too have always helped the poor, and for that matter America as a whole has always helped the poor...more than any other nation. But if caravans continue pouring into our country and manipulate the system, never to assimilate, is this sustainable?



sigh -- you can't get free housing and food even if you are a citizen, unless you are in prison.  And, the so-called caravan did not exploit our porous borders -- the people in it came asking for asylum, as they are legally entitled to do, and were legally admitted into the US to await the outcome of their requests for asylum.  I am not denying that some may cheat to get what benefits they can, particularly in California, but to say they will all do that is a bit hyperbolic, to say the least.  I would also point out that the "depraved, vile, lawless third world society" is precisely what they are seeking asylum from.

Probably people made the same statements about the Jews attempting to come to America aboard the ill-fated St. Louis, seeking asylum, which ship was forced to return to Germany where most of the passengers were murdered by the Nazis in their depraved, lawless, vile society.


----------



## Lara (May 9, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> sigh -- you can't get free housing and food even if you are a citizen


Southern CA has the most expensive real estate and rent in the US besides SF and NYC. Do you think these people come over the border with millions of dollars each in their pockets? Where do you think they will live? How will they buy food? What about medical care? Transportation? They don't have any money. They are taken care of by the taxpayers. Some are pregnant and go to the emergency rooms in our hospitals and get free delivery.



			
				Butterfly said:
			
		

> ...the people in [caravans] came asking for asylum, as they are legally entitled to do, and were legally admitted into the US to await the outcome of their requests for asylum. I am not denying that some may cheat to get what benefits they can, particularly in California


My source used (in quotes with youtube link) wasn't talking about citizens. He's talking about 200 illegals who were granted entry w/benefits into the US because they used the word "asylum". They are still illegals until they show up for their court date and begin the legal process at their hearing. But many don't show up for their hearing and go to the LA swap meet for their fake IDs.



			
				Butterfly said:
			
		

> The so-called caravan did not exploit our porous borders, they came asking for asylum


The word is out to use the "asylum" card because of the instant free benefits you receive that our legal citizens don't get. Yes there is cheating going on, lots of it. Some of the children are not even their own.



			
				Butterfly said:
			
		

> I would also point out that the "depraved, vile, lawless third world society" is precisely what they are seeking asylum from


Yes they are seeking the American dream and there are some who are honest and become productive citizens but when they arrive in mass caravans we need to be very careful to vet those from the lawless ones. That's why we need a wall and heightened border security...and take our time, oh, and cooperation from California leaders who aren't following our Constitutional laws. They're ignoring ICE, plus warning and protecting illegals even, etc. Is that fair to the honest law abiding aliens who worked their way toward legal citizenship?


----------



## hearlady (May 9, 2018)

So many good points on both sides of this issue. 

So what IS a good and fair immigration policy and why can't we have one?

Or if you think our immigration policy IS fair why are so many fighting against it?


----------



## Lara (May 9, 2018)

hearlady said:


> So many good points on both sides of this issue.
> 
> So what IS a good and fair immigration policy and why can't we have one?
> 
> Or if you think our immigration policy IS fair why are so many fighting against it?


Those are 2 excellent questions but require a complicated lengthy answer. But the short of it is that we do have a good immigration plan but politics and egos, which is vastly complex, are causing it not to be fully approved nor fully funded...and is slowing down the process which is putting the safety of our country in jeopardy more and more the longer we take.

Another thing is that some people just aren't looking far enough into the future. Desperate times require desperate changes. It's a different world now. 

Another thing is that California is not cooperating because they want illegals working in the fields at below minimum wages so there is more profit for themselves. The illegals take many jobs that Americans would do if the pay was fair. Pay should be fair and jobs should go to legal citizens, whether they are Mexican-American citizens or otherwise.....legal is the key word.


----------



## BobF (May 9, 2018)

hearlady said:


> So many good points on both sides of this issue.
> 
> So what IS a good and fair immigration policy and why can't we have one?
> 
> Or if you think our immigration policy IS fair why are so many fighting against it?



As I remember the LEGAL WAY is to go to a consulate and speak with representatives of the US government.   The representatives then start the screening and search for appropriate places to go to and lots of other LEGAL and helpful ways of helping get those desiring to cross the border.

We should end this ILLEGAL crossing of our borders as it makes it difficult for those LEGALLY attempting to get permission to enter, which is the only LEGAL way to do it.


----------



## Sunny (May 9, 2018)

> We should end this ILLEGAL crossing of our borders as it makes it  difficult for those LEGALLY attempting to get permission to enter, which  is the only LEGAL way to do it.



Bob, that all sounds very correct and high-minded. But realistically, how?  Saying "we should" is meaningless when we are confronted with a big surge of desperate humanity.

It seems to me that the only way to stop the illegal crossing is to make it all legal. If we did that, we would have no national borders; people would just be free to come and go as they please.  Maybe some day in the future, that will happen. Not in our lifetimes.

Nothing else would work, not even draconian measures such as killing anyone who tries to enter illegally.  People would still find a way to do it.

But from all that I have read, immigration from our southern border has diminished considerably. The life awaiting illegal immigrants is not measurably better than the life they left behind. And economic conditions have improved in Mexico.  This whole "caravan" thing is a bugaboo work of fiction, designed to scare up the masses to respond at the polls.


----------



## helenbacque (May 9, 2018)

Maybe we should consider what our neighbors do.  If it works for them, why not us?  Mexico and Canada and how they handle the issue

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/21/505538964/police-and-illegal-immigration-what-our-neighbors-do


----------



## Knight (May 9, 2018)

Sunny;818205  said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the only way to stop the illegal crossing is to make it all legal. If we did that, we would have no national borders; people would just be free to come and go as they please.  Maybe some day in the future, that will happen. Not in our lifetimes.



Is no borders and the vision of people moving where ever they please realistic? 


I think rather than poverty being eliminated which I suppose is the expectation. IMO the reality would be more along the lines of no middle class with only wealthy and poor as the end result. 


No borders would could mean boatloads of people from every country in our world. 


http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats


I'm don't share your vision of no borders resolving illegal entry so I'll  ask where would the 1st. country of opportunity be & what would be the the consequences?


----------



## BobF (May 9, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Bob, that all sounds very correct and high-minded. But realistically, how?  Saying "we should" is meaningless when we are confronted with a big surge of desperate humanity.
> 
> It seems to me that the only way to stop the illegal crossing is to make it all legal. If we did that, we would have no national borders; people would just be free to come and go as they please.  Maybe some day in the future, that will happen. Not in our lifetimes.
> 
> ...



A week or so back I suggested folks in the US should read about how some of the most permissive of the Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, and others have responded to far too much immigration and how they do slow it down.   I suggested Denmark as it has done some pretty much to end immigration efforts.   

When folks have their money over a certain level taken to help pay for immigration costs.    When actually entered and accepted they can not call in family for at least two years.   They must learn the local language, they must not attempt to force their ways on the communities.   The Danish eat pork so they will not remove it from school menus to please the immigrants.   On and on they do what they can to support their own ways of life and insist the newcomers adapt to the Danish life.

I believe also that the US should look to the ways others handle immigration and follow suite.   Don't take my word for these actions.   Look they up on the web.

Here is an example.    

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/01/denmark-refugees-immigration-law/431520/

We are way to easy on the immigrants that think crossing the border is  just dandy so now you can feed me, medicate me, provide housing, and  even provide a car for us.   We need the wall completed and our border  patrol should be allowed to block their entrance at the borders.

They need to use our legal way of starting at a consulate and get invited in.


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## Knight (May 9, 2018)

news from Louisiana
BATON ROUGE — Louisiana's Department of Health will begin sending nursing home eviction notices Thursday to more than 30,000 residents who could lose Medicaid under the budget passed by the state House of Representatives.
www.thenewsstar.com/story/news/2018/05/07/nursing-home-eviction-notices-sent-week/585516002/


(I don't know if this'd be considered politics, but hope it's ok to post it because it's kinda important)


In the thread titled news from Louisiana the 30,000 that face eviction notices should form a caravan to go to California to claim amnesty from horrible conditions they face in Louisiana. As they cross state borders they could accept offers of amnesty.


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## Butterfly (May 9, 2018)

Lara said:


> Southern CA has the most expensive real estate and rent in the US besides SF and NYC. Do you think these people come over the border with millions of dollars each in their pockets? Where do you think they will live? How will they buy food? What about medical care? Transportation? They don't have any money. They are taken care of by the taxpayers. Some are pregnant and go to the emergency rooms in our hospitals and get free delivery.
> 
> 
> My source used (in quotes with youtube link) wasn't talking about citizens. He's talking about* 200 illegals who were granted entry w/benefits into the US because they used the word "asylum". *They are still illegals until they show up for their court date and begin the legal process at their hearing. But many don't show up for their hearing and go to the LA swap meet for their fake IDs.
> ...



FIRST, what free benefits that US citizens don't get are you talking about??  If you are talking about food and housing again, the way the asylum seekers would get anything like that is in  immigration detention centers or from private charities.  

Secondly, they were NOT "admitted with benefits" because they used the word asylum.  Their case for asylum must be documented and proved before they are legally admitted as asylees into the United states.  Those who passed an initial credibility screening would have been allowed to enter only to await the outcome of their cases.  It is my understanding that most, if not all, of them will be held in immigration detention centers until their cases are heard, so you can quit worrying about them running amuck at LA swap meets.  Those whose cases fail will be deported.

Thirdly, they DO have the right to seek asylum, whether you think they should or not, and there is nothing sneaky or illegal about seeking asylum.  Only a fairly small percentage of those who seek asylum are granted it, as the threshold of proof is fairly high.

Fourth, as to the idea of pregnant women going to hospitals to have their babies, would you prefer they have them in the floor at the border checkpoints?

I do agree that we need secure borders, but if we don't like the law then we must change it, not demonize those who might benefit under it.


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## Lara (May 9, 2018)

I'll let you have the last word. 

I stand by my post on the subject but I don't feel the need to change your mind about anything

*handshake*


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## BobF (May 11, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> FIRST, what free benefits that US citizens don't get are you talking about??  If you are talking about food and housing again, the way the asylum seekers would get anything like that is *in  immigration detention centers or from private charities.  *
> 
> Secondly, they were NOT "admitted with benefits" because they used the word asylum.  Their case for asylum must be documented and proved before they are legally admitted as asylees into the United states.  Those who passed an initial credibility screening would have been allowed to enter only to await the outcome of their cases.  It is my understanding that most, if not all, of them will be held in immigration detention centers until their cases are heard, so you can quit worrying about them running amuck at LA swap meets.  Those whose cases fail will be deported.
> 
> ...



The expressed payers of the cost are the federal and state funds and from private charities.   So all those benefits come from citizens of the US using money that should be left for real citizens needs.          

And that is not counting the thousands that have slipped through and never been caught or the thousands that entered the system but then disappeared.    We need to stop all entries at the border and make sure they are identified and become part of our system, no matter the reasons.

There are ways for low income and needy folks to get bedding and food in the US.   The US is overflowing with charity and ways for helping the needy.   We are far too involved in making it possible for folks to live and eat without jobs.

Many years back it was possible for folks, sometimes called 'tramps', that would knock on the door and offer to work for a meal.    Should we go back to this form, likely not.    But we do need to slow down our willingness to give to our own and certainly to our neighboring countries with their ideas of threats being enough to open our borders to all.


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## Sunny (May 11, 2018)

Bob, what would you do if you were confronted with a real family whose mother is clearly starving, a baby screaming for food, a child suffering from cancer?  And who have not signed all the necessary legal forms to enter this country?  Would you demand to see those forms before providing any help, as one human being to another?  If they can't produce the forms, would you slam the door on them, saying, "Then die! And good riddance!"  We need the money to help real citizens, not riffraff like you!"

If this sounds like something out of Dickens, it is what you are proposing.


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## Lara (May 11, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Bob, what would you do if you were confronted with a real family whose mother is clearly starving, a baby screaming for food, a child suffering from cancer?  And who have not signed all the necessary legal forms to enter this country?  Would you demand to see those forms before providing any help, as one human being to another?  If they can't produce the forms, would you slam the door on them, saying, "Then die! And good riddance!"  We need the money to help real citizens, not riffraff like you!" If this sounds like something out of Dickens, it is what you are proposing.


Relax. Bob is not a monster. This is a sensational picture to paint of Bob's post and putting words in his mouth. He's not talking about one starving family. He's talking about "thousands that have slipped through and never been caught or the thousands that entered the system but then disappeared", caravans, MS-13 gangs, etc. 

And Bob did not say "Die, good riddance, nor call them riff-raff." He suggested we slow down, be more careful at the borders to handle these mass entries, and figure out a plan that will not make it too easy for them to live high-on-the charity hog so they have no need or interest in getting jobs. It's true that we have a lot of generous charities in America.


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## Knight (May 11, 2018)

Sunny your sceanario is an extreme and as written involves only one mother or child. As has been explained each amnesty applicant has their case reviewed. What you describe most certainly would be considered .


But this isn't about the kind of situation you described. It's about setting a precedence of gaining mass entry into America and not accepting the offer of Mexico for amnesty. 


Maybe you are not old enough to know about Cuban leader Fidel Castro helping criminals end up in America. I believe other governments world wide would help their citizens seek refuge in America if a significant number claiming amnesty were accepted. 


I don't blame Castro for what he did then I blame the people that were trying to be kind but didn't realize that not every leader is honest.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_exile


I'm not answering for Bob just posting my view on this topic.


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## Sunny (May 12, 2018)

Lara and Knight, I'm not calling anyone a monster. I think Bob is making some misguided glittering generalities. 

Those "thousands and thousands" consist of individual human beings, each with his/her particular reason for trying to escape to this country. Obviously, some of those reasons carry more veritas than others. But slamming the door on all of them, separating parents and children who have lived in this country for the child's entire life (and are therefore Americans) is heartless.

Looking at the huddled masses referred to on the Statue of Liberty as selfish people and criminals is unconscionable. There were those who labeled them that way even then. Not to mention the people, led by FDR of all people, who refused refuge to Jews trying to escape the Holocaust because they would "put too big a strain on our social services." It's always easy to smear large groups of people with whatever ugly brush you choose.

But looking at them as individual human beings, many of them with tragic experiences and great suffering, it's not so easy to turn your back on them, is it?


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## BobF (May 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Lara and Knight, I'm not calling anyone a monster. I think Bob is *making some misguided glittering generalities. *
> 
> Those "thousands and thousands" consist of individual human beings, each with his/her particular reason for trying to escape to this country. Obviously, some of those reasons carry more veritas than others. *But slamming the door on all of them,* separating parents and children who have lived in this country for the child's entire life (and are therefore Americans) is heartless.
> 
> ...



Call things what you want but remember that not all of the US agree with some of the things you are saying.    Not sure what you mean by glittering generalities, so will ignore those types of comments for what they are worth.

Slamming the door on all of them?    What are you speaking of with that comment.    We are trying to build a better border defense with more Border Patrol and military reinforcement.    We hope to strengthen our current wall and build a better one where needed.   This does not slam the door on any one wanting to immigrate to the US.    It is intended to cut down on crime or drug transportation into the US from the southern border.

I believe that allowing the border patrol to actually stop immigrants from crossing the border is correct as only when the immigrants claim for safety in the US can be confirmed should they get permission.   Applying at a US Consulate would be a better way.   All those that arrive from Europe, Africa, middle east, Asia, and other areas have been screened before arriving in the US, why not those from south and central America?

I lived in a Arizona city where one of the border patrol units was stationed.    They were about 300 strong and worked a large part of the border and nearby areas.   The border patrols then could not stop them from crossing the border.  a Instead they waited till darkness when many of the immigrants would cross the border and attempt to hike north into Arizona or get rides into other states.

This has always been a poor situation as once over the fence it is easy to hide in the weeds during the day and rest through the heat and then make a good move in the evening while trying to avoid the border patrol.    They would come by the train load across Mexico and near the US border they drop off the train and start playing hide and seek with the Border Patrols.

Better to shut off access for some as most do appear to need screening prior to arrival.   Those along our southern border are no better than all the others I mentioned earlier in this post.


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## Sunny (May 12, 2018)

A *glittering generality* (also called glowing *generality*) is an emotionally appealing phrase so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that it carries conviction without supporting information or reason.  

Here are some examples:



https://simplicable.com/new/glittering-generality


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## C'est Moi (May 12, 2018)

Lara said:


> Relax. Bob is not a monster. This is a sensational picture to paint of Bob's post and putting words in his mouth. He's not talking about one starving family. He's talking about "thousands that have slipped through and never been caught or the thousands that entered the system but then disappeared", caravans, MS-13 gangs, etc.
> 
> And Bob did not say "Die, good riddance, nor call them riff-raff." He suggested we slow down, be more careful at the borders to handle these mass entries, and figure out a plan that will not make it too easy for them to live high-on-the charity hog so they have no need or interest in getting jobs. It's true that we have a lot of generous charities in America.



Exactly.   And he is correct.   We are being overrun and it's way past time to stem the flow.   We cannot care for the entire world.

I will add that those of you not living in border states really don't have a clear understanding of the magnitude of this problem.


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## fmdog44 (May 12, 2018)

Clearly the anti immigration movement is fueled by the fool we have for president so how it ends up is anyone's guess. The immigration problem is world-wide and bad reactions are and will occur violence not ruled out. When any nation is forced to change its laws to accommodate immigrants it is then a problem. America is a good example of immigration creating problems as witnessed by races preferring not to melt in rather, to live amongst themselves. A good example of this "natural selection" is our prisons when we witness the prison yards where races sit separate from each other by choice. Integration was forced on us in the early civil right movement because the govt. knew clearly it is something that does not come natural if it did there would never have been the need to force it. Genocide with it's long history remains alive and well in different parts of the world.


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## BobF (May 12, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Clearly the anti immigration movement is fueled by the fool we have for president so how it ends up is anyone's guess. The immigration problem is world-wide and bad reactions are and will occur violence not ruled out. When any nation is forced to change its laws to accommodate immigrants it is then a problem. America is a good example of immigration creating problems as witnessed by races preferring not to melt in rather, to live amongst themselves. A good example of this "natural selection" is our prisons when we witness the prison yards where races sit separate from each other by choice. Integration was forced on us in the early civil right movement because the govt. knew clearly it is something that does not come natural if it did there would never have been the need to force it. Genocide with it's long history remains alive and well in different parts of the world.



How can you make such a statement when it was Obama and before when the border protection was started.   We have  had border fences and walls for years now, long before Trump showed up.   Plenty of folks are upset with the lack of control of our borders and Trump is certainly using those ideas to get changes made.


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## Sunny (May 12, 2018)

> Trump is certainly using those ideas to get changes made.



Trump is using those ideas to appeal to his base voters. Period. He has no consistent policy on any changes, and is as changeable as the wind.


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## BobF (May 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Trump is using those ideas to appeal to his base voters. Period. He has no consistent policy on any changes, and is as changeable as the wind.



What Trump is doing is to accomplish his campaign promises.   Some pretty good actions have happened for the US today and in the future.   I hope he continues to be so good in policy changes and for the economy and employment for the rest of his official duty days.   Depending on the coming elections he has 2 plus years or possibly 6 plus years. 

Interesting years recently and hope they continue no matter who wins these coming years.    We do need to have positive leadership no matter which party thinks they run the government.

I am always against either party thinking they run the government.   Nowhere in our Constitution does it say any political party will run the government.    If a person wins the election the person is supposed to push for what the folks in his election district are pushing for, not what a political party demands. 

After the election campaign ends the parties should be forgotten and let our government run per our Constitution.


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## fmdog44 (May 12, 2018)

BobF said:


> How can you make such a statement when it was Obama and before when the border protection was started.   We have  had border fences and walls for years now, long before Trump showed up.   Plenty of folks are upset with the lack of control of our borders and Trump is certainly using those ideas to get changes made.



No argument but Trump is blowing smoke up the peoples rear. Example: Where is the caravan now. Trump's ego thinks he can actually STOP illegal immigration and that will NEVER happen. What next a wall to stop tunnels? What a joke.


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## AZ Jim (May 12, 2018)

Our immigration problems are totally different than most other countries.  Here we sit, a rich country  at the top of a band of land that knows only poverty.  We are a magnet for those who hunger.  We cannot afford to feed them all, but we can in our planning try to be as humane as possible in our approaches to a resolution to their and our problem.


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