# Excessive Police Force Once Again?  Man Dies from Police Choke Hold



## SeaBreeze (Jul 21, 2014)

Is this just one more case of police using excessive force on a citizen? This man was stopped for selling cigarettes illegally, and was in trouble with the law in the past.  Regardless of that, was a police attack really called for in this instance, rather than just cuffing the man?  When he was saying he couldn't breathe, don't you think he should have had the pressure on his neck reduced? 

 With all those cops present, isn't it funny that they couldn't manage to cuff and arrest him without the excessive force?  I think some of these cops are just boys who have not matured yet, but are given a badge and gun to see who they can conquer.  What do you think?  http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/20/justice/ny-chokehold-death/index.html


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## Falcon (Jul 21, 2014)

Sea, I agree with everything you say,  BUT  this victim initiated this whole scenario when he "ordered" the 

police not to touch him!  Right away he cops went on alert and went about what they had been trained to do

when putting a perp under arrest.

I'll admit that some young cops go over the top in some cases, however lets not lose sight of the fact that

when you're in dire straits, the cops are the first ones you call.


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## SifuPhil (Jul 21, 2014)

Falcon said:


> ... however lets not lose sight of the fact that
> 
> when you're in dire straits, the cops are the first ones you call.



Actually, when I'm in dire straits I call a few stripper friends of mine - MUCH meaner than the cops and more fun to watch. 

Unfortunately the cop used a forearm choke instead of a rear naked choke. In the former you cut off the breath - in the latter, only the blood flow. Much easier to recover from the latter, and in this case, with a perp who had trouble breathing, it would have been a much better technique to apply.

Of course, I doubt they teach such fine differences at the police academy ...


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 21, 2014)

Even if he said the words or 'ordered' them not to touch him, could you blame him considering some of the past examples of excessive police force which made headlines in the past?  I'm not saying he was a good guy, nor that this was racial, but they did abuse their power once again, IMO.  The cops are the first ones we call because they signed up for that occupation, and they get paid for responding when needed.  That doesn't give them free reign to use their badge to abuse the citizens, it's supposed to represent protection of the citizens.  I do acknowledge that this man was not in the best physical health, which contributed to the end result.


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## Falcon (Jul 21, 2014)

The good proper arrests FAR OUTWEIGH  the few abusive ones.  But the few bad ones always get the publicity.


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## Denise1952 (Jul 21, 2014)

I don't know, I was brought up to respect our law enforcement, and I've found if I cooperate, no problems.  When people break the law, I think their first choice seems to be to deny they did it.  I think it's an unfortunate accident (I mean, I know cops are human and make mistakes, even break the law themselves).  Look at what a cop faces every day he puts on that uniform.  I agree with Falcon on this, I know my first call is 911, and I am glad to see a cop-car in my neighborhood.  I also agree with the "news" it's way more bad news, then good stuff, that's why it's hard for me to watch it.


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## Denise1952 (Jul 21, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> Actually, when I'm in dire straits I call a few stripper friends of mine - MUCH meaner than the cops and more fun to watch.
> 
> Unfortunately the cop used a forearm choke instead of a rear naked choke. In the former you cut off the breath - in the latter, only the blood flow. Much easier to recover from the latter, and in this case, with a perp who had trouble breathing, it would have been a much better technique to apply.
> 
> Of course, I doubt they teach such fine differences at the police academy ...



It is something that should be taught, if it isn't Phil, for sure.  My brother was a cop all his life, and we don't talk about his service, but I know my brother is someone that wanted to protect the innocent.  I think most of our police force are like my bro, they want to help the innocent, and get the bad guys off the streets.  I also know my brother would speak up against any cop that was "dirty".  

I've seen a lot of bad publicity against cops, but I am still glad we have a police-force.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 21, 2014)

I agree that the proper arrests or police activities outweigh the bad, as in many occupations, but not everyone gets news coverage for doing their chosen jobs without incident.  I was also brought up to respect the police, and back then they walked the neighborhoods on foot, and I sometimes would chat with the ones who were near where we lived.

But it seems that over the years, the idea to protect and serve has been lost.  Not saying all cops are bad of course, but when there are incidents of abuse, I want to hear them and will not turn a blind eye.  Nwlady, I'm sure your brother, and the husband who Jillaroo had lost, were fine examples of the force...just wish they were all like that.


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## Denise1952 (Jul 21, 2014)

Only on the day when ALL people are good SB.  Sadly, we won't see that I'm afraid.  I don't think anyone wants you to turn a blind eye.  Most of us (I hope) want justice, not abuse, or like this article is talking about undo force., etc.  I suppose that's why we have courts of law to determine a person's guilt, or innocence.  I choose to believe the cop is innocent, and that yes, it may have been a sad accident.  But I'm sure they will be going to court over it.  Then we can hope for justice to be done.


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## MrJim (Jul 22, 2014)

From what I heard, he died of a heart attack. I'm not convinced it was the choke hold that killed him. If you look at the video, you can see how big & fat the guy was. He might have been a heart attack waiting to happen & all it took to push him over the edge was a stressful situation like that one.

I suppose an autopsy will tell the story, but you know that if the ME determines he had clogged arteries & a weak heart to begin with, the family, their attorneys & everyone else who always tries to use these kinds of occurrences to some advantage, will claim it was a lie.

When these guys resist arrest & fight with the police, it should be taken into account & the cops' liability should be lowered.

Unless of course their behavior was just flagrant.


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 22, 2014)

I agree the guy was in bad physical shape, and may have died because of it.  But he wasn't really fighting with those cops, if he was they would have repeatedly tased him probably shot him.  I still can't see why they were not able to cuff this guy and take him in without all the physical drama.


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## MrJim (Jul 22, 2014)

Looked to me like he was struggling & resisting them.

One can resist being handcuffed by trying pull one's arms away from & out of their grip. There are a lot of other ways one can use & shift their weight around in an attempt to make it as difficult as possible for the police to subdue them.

The guy knew he was engaged in criminal activity & when they went to arrest him, he could have & should have cooperated with them. But he made the choice not to. Had he cooperated, he'd be out on bail at home with his family right now.

I think that a lot of these people do this kind of thing on purpose, in order to provoke the police into using some higher than normal level of force with them, knowing that it's all being video & audio taped nowadays, in the hope that they'll create an opportunity to file an excessive force lawsuit against the city & settle out of court for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think a lot of them exaggerate the moaning & complaining about being in pain or not being able to breathe for the benefit of the video.


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## Denise1952 (Jul 22, 2014)

The guy was huge, and the cops looked like munchkins next to him.  Our police force is authority, I think the onlookers seemed to be all for the guy getting arrested.  I am hoping to somehow find out why the guy died (cause of death).  What was this fight he broke up too?  He kept saying he was minding his own biz, but he wasn't if he was busy breaking up some fight, just some observations when looking close at the video.  Those cops didn't jump on him and beat him, they were trying to restrain him.  He was under arrest and wasn't going to allow (not going to allow it in my opinion).


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## SifuPhil (Jul 22, 2014)

The fact that the perp was so big - vertically and horizontally - might be one reason that the cop applied a forearm choke. Looking at the video you can see that he had to reach upwards and outwards to get a hold, unlike with a smaller perp. 

I think as soon as he said "Don't touch me" that was the beginning of the end. Cops aren't trained to take commands from civilians ...


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## Denise1952 (Jul 22, 2014)

SifuPhil said:


> The fact that the perp was so big - vertically and horizontally - might be one reason that the cop applied a forearm choke. Looking at the video you can see that he had to reach upwards and outwards to get a hold, unlike with a smaller perp.
> 
> I think as soon as he said "Don't touch me" that was the beginning of the end. Cops aren't trained to take commands from civilians ...



That's true, like I was taught to obey the law, and if a cop stopped me in a car or whatever, I was to cooperate.  That makes good sense about the "hold" what choices were there.  There more we get into this, the less I believe there was "any" police brutality.

thanks Phil


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## SeaBreeze (Jul 22, 2014)

I agree guys, this probably wasn't a case of abuse by the police.  If it were me, I'd be cooperative, especially nowadays, no sense in making them angry and giving them any excuse to be more forceful.  I guess the 'don't touch me' could have been taken as a threat for sure.


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## WhatInThe (Jul 23, 2014)

I'm pretty pro cop and law enforcement as far as doing their JOB. But it is THE job that should be the priority. I think too many police are more or over worried about protecting their butts than a safe arrest or protecting the public. Let's face it being a cop comes with danger. If you are that scared maybe you shouldn't be a cop.  Also the police being part of a para military organization should have and be more disciplined. I see too many cases where the police are reacting to their emotions and not the situation and yet theoretically they are being paid to keep calm and handle the situation in a non emotional manner. Being disciplined means being able to control your emotions. 

Many of these police don't seem to mind using military tactics and weaponry but don't seem to use any military discipline.

That being said yeh this suspect was highly emotional and just by size a threat. The police should be disciplined enough to control emotion and not match anger with anger. If they had to WAIT for extra officers to subdue him or wait for a taser they should've waited. But that means controlling urges-discipline.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 9, 2016)

Some justice 18 months later. Supervising cop at scene was charged.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-police-garner-idUSKBN0UM27L20160108


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## fureverywhere (Jan 9, 2016)

You would think at this point most police forces would be of the mind they don't want their town to be the next rioting site. If you stop a black male especially you want to do everything in your power to diffuse the situation. There are ways to make an arrest without killing anyone...especially over selling loosies.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 9, 2016)

WhatInThe said:


> Some justice 18 months later. Supervising cop at scene was charged.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-york-police-garner-idUSKBN0UM27L20160108




:applause2:


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