# What Do Real Muslims Believe?



## OneEyedDiva (Aug 30, 2021)

I saw a couple of comments on a thread that sadly was closed because more discussion is needed on the topic of Muslims and spreading love.  @mellowyellow said "people who follow Islam scare her to death". That's sad! I wonder why? @senior chef theorized about an insane percentage of Muslims who are terrorists based upon what.....??? 

First of all, let me say that Muslims who join these terrorist organizations are IMO on the same level as those who join the KKK and used racial hatred to kill innocent Blacks and Jews. Islam DOES NOT condone their actions. Suicide is a *big sin* in Islam, thus suicide bombers are creating the ultimate sins by 1. Killing themselves 2. Killing/harming innocents and 3. Lying on God (by claiming these acts in His name). 

Real Muslims believe that no one race is better than another. We believe that all God's people (people of the books) have rights and should be treated equally and justly. I once heard a Christian woman on the news say something about "whatever God they believe in". I thought to myself, that fool doesn't even know we believe in the same God that the Bible says created heaven and Earth. She sounded mighty ignorant...I guess the name Allah threw her off. She was too dumb to know that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, just as Dios is Spanish for God. I know Imams (Muslims ministers) who teach from the Bible as well as the Quran and some know the Bible better than Christians do. I was raised Christian before I accepted Islam at age 45, so I know this to be true. The Quran contains Surahs (chapters) that mention Jesus and Mary. 

Islamophobia has spread so widely because people take the worst of what they see *so* *called* Muslims do and judge all Muslims by those things. I'm *so glad* I don't judge all White people by the acts of the KKK and other racists. BTW, earlier this year domestic terrorists (among them White Supremacists)  were named by U.S. intelligence as one of the biggest threats we face in this country. I'm also glad I don't judge all Christians by the bad apples in the bunch. Many horrible things have been done in the name of Christianty!
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/22/us-domestic-extremism-security-threat-9-11-capitol-assault/
@Pecos @feywon


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## DonnyO (Aug 30, 2021)

Judging from the woman I work with a BMW's a big truck and DisneyWorld vacations.


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## Nathan (Aug 30, 2021)

@OneEyedDiva,  Certain politicians and media exert control over their followers though fear mongering, Islamophobia is one tool in their toolbox.

it's a sad state of affairs, racism is _alive & well _in the 21st century.  Ignorance is as rampant as ever despite(or maybe because of) the Information Superhighway.

The struggle for liberty, progress, tolerance, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state continues....


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## senior chef (Aug 30, 2021)

Am I allowed to quote verses from the Quran ? If so, I will not say a word except for the Quran quotes


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## Don M. (Aug 30, 2021)

There have always been Nutcases, throughout history, which use Religion as the basis for their actions.  No religion is free of those who soil its teachings with their actions.  I suspect a lot of the "faithful" are going to be very surprised when they die.


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2021)

I understand where you are coming from Diva but I don't like terms like "real Muslim" or "real Christian". Faith is essentially a relationship with the Divine and it is not for any of us to judge the faith of others. Of course, we are all guilty of doing just that, overlooking the instruction, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". To some extent we are all guilty of condemning others but absolving ourselves.

On the other hand, it is reasonable to look at the practices of certain sects or denominations and criticise things that we find abhorrent. It is not OK for priests to make a vow of celibacy and abuse the choir boys. It is not OK to claim to be a religion of peace and to force conversion by the sword as the Spanish did in South America. It is not OK to burn heretics at the stake because they worship using a different rite as was commonplace in Reformation Europe. Nor is it OK to burn a missionary and his young sons in their car to prevent him from preaching his faith (India, in my lifetime). Women should never be executed for being witches, not should very young girls be given in marriage to old men.

To greater or lesser extent we are all hypocrites. As a Christian I have been impressed by the goodness (godliness?) of people that I have met who are practising Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics and Quakers. I am aware that evil people are capable of corrupting every religion and sect for ungodly purposes such as conquest, power and greed. Every religion and every political movement because we are all fallible to false teaching.


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## senior chef (Aug 30, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I understand where you are coming from Diva but I don't like terms like "real Muslim" or "real Christian". Faith is essentially a relationship with the Divine and it is not for any of us to judge the faith of others. Of course, we are all guilty of doing just that, overlooking the instruction, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". To some extent we are all guilty of condemning others but absolving ourselves.
> 
> On the other hand, it is reasonable to look at the practices of certain sects or denominations and criticise things that we find abhorrent. It is not OK for priests to make a vow of celibacy and abuse the choir boys. It is not OK to claim to be a religion of peace and to force conversion by the sword as the Spanish did in South America. It is not OK to burn heretics at the stake because they wordship using a different rite as was commonplace in Reformation Europe. Nor is it OK to burn a missionary and his young sons in their car to prevent him from preaching his faith (India, in my lifetime). Women should never be executed for being witches, not should very young girls be given in marriage to old men.
> 
> To greater or lesser extent we are all hypocrites. As a Christian I have been impressed by the goodness (godliness?) of people that I have met who are practising Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics and Quakers. I am aware that evil people are capable of corrupting every religion and sect for ungodly purposes such as conquest, power and greed. Every religion and every political movement because we are all fallible to false teaching.


Hi Warrigal,
Do you think it is safe for me to quote verses from the Quran without being banned ? If so, I would only post the quotes and not say a single other word.


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## feywon (Aug 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Hi Warrigal,
> Do you think it is safe for me to quote verses from the Quran without being banned ? If so, I would only post the quotes and not say a single other word.


Oh you read it entirely in original language? Or maybe just have some out of context and or poorly translated verses? I don't know how admin would feel about, but i suspect any observant objective person could match your quotes with Old and New testament ones that sound as bad.


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Hi Warrigal,
> Do you think it is safe for me to quote verses from the Quran without being banned ? If so, I would only post the quotes and not say a single other word.


You sound like the fifteen year old girls who used to ask my permission for something they planned to do. In most cases it was a trap. If I gave my approval without knowing exactly what they had in mind (they tended to leave out details that they knew I would not sanction) then when the excrement hit the rotor they would say, "But Miss said it was OK". 

I'm sure you will excuse me if I don't give you my answer. 
I'll just remind you of the proverb, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread".


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## senior chef (Aug 30, 2021)

feywon said:


> Oh you read it entirelt in original language? Or maybe just have some out of context and or poorly translated verses? I don't know how admin woukd feel about, but i suspect any observant objective person could match your quotes with Old and New testament ones that sound as bad.


Ah, I get it. Not interested in literal full quotes.


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## Warrigal (Aug 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Ah, I get it. Not interested in literal full quotes.


I don't think you do get it.
I'll start a conversation with you.


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## Pecos (Aug 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I saw a couple of comments on a thread that sadly was closed because more discussion is needed on the topic of Muslims and spreading love.  @mellowyellow said "people who follow Islam scare her to death". That's sad! I wonder why? @senior chef theorized about an insane percentage of Muslims who are terrorists based upon what.....???
> 
> First of all, let me say that Muslims who join these terrorist organizations are IMO on the same level as those who join the KKK and used racial hatred to kill innocent Blacks and Jews. Islam DOES NOT condone their actions. Suicide is a *big sin* in Islam, thus suicide bombers are creating the ultimate sins by 1. Killing themselves 2. Killing/harming innocents and 3. Lying on God (by claiming these acts in His name).
> 
> ...



Diva, yours is an excellent post. It is such a shame that so many evil people are willing to distort religion for their own purposes and it is such a shame that so many other people are so willing to believe the worst without even thinking. I have known a number of Muslims and I never detected the least difference between their value system and mine.

You are absolutely right that the biggest threat in this country right now is white supremacy. I worry a great deal about what they are trying to do.


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## Shero (Aug 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Am I allowed to quote verses from the Quran ? If so, I will not say a word except for the Quran quotes


So you want to quote verses from the Qur'an like a parrot? The Qur'an is written in 114 languages which one will you use or will you stick to the original Qur'an written in Classical Arabic and do also quote from the Hadith to get a better understanding of what certain passages may mean.


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## Gary O' (Aug 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Oh, I get it alright.


Poster time!!!


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## senior chef (Aug 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> @senior chef ,  This is such a disappointingly low brow comment, perhaps I expect too much from people, even though they're old enough to know better.


I think I'll just bow out of this thread. No one seems remotely interested in the literal truth quoted from the Quran. 
People expect me to quote in the original Arabic. AND, even then they would find some way to side step the true facts.
Bye Bye


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 31, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Am I allowed to quote verses from the Quran ? If so, I will not say a word except for the Quran quotes


You can quote verses. I suspect you want to do so to rebuke what I have written. But just remember, there are verses to support what I have written as well. And it's well known that the Bible contains contradictions, as some might point out...so does the Quran. I've learned, however, that interpretation has a lot to do with it (in both cases).


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## Buckeye (Aug 31, 2021)

From Wikipedia:

No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their universal generalization from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly.[1][2][3] Rather than abandoning the falsified universal generalization or providing evidence that would disqualify the falsifying counterexample, a slightly modified generalization is constructed ad-hoc to definitionally exclude the undesirable specific case and counterexamples like it by appeal to rhetoric.[4] This rhetoric takes the form of emotionally charged but nonsubstantive purity platitudes such as "true, pure, genuine, authentic, real", etc.[2][5]

Philosophy professor Bradley Dowden explains the fallacy as an "ad hoc rescue" of a refuted generalization attempt.[1] The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy:[6]

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."


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## JimBob1952 (Aug 31, 2021)

I know "real" Christians who send checks to BLM and others who think the orange man won the election.  Some think same sex marriage is a sin, others think it's wonderful.  There's no way to generalize, and I'm sure the same is true of Islam.  Any religion with more than a billion adherents encompasses huge variations and factions.


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## StarSong (Aug 31, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Real Muslims believe that no one race is better than another. We believe that all* God's people (people of the books*) have rights and should be treated equally and justly.


The implication of this statement is that people _not_ "of the books" (meaning Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sarbians) don't have rights nor are they required to be treated equally and justly.  That's a shocking, abhorrent position.  Only those with Judeo roots qualify as God's people?


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 31, 2021)

StarSong said:


> The implication of this statement is that people _not_ "of the books" (meaning Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sarbians) don't have rights nor are they required to be treated equally and justly.  That's a shocking, abhorrent position.  Only those with Judeo roots qualify as God's people?


I can't change what's in the Bible, Torah or Quran Star. But I will say this. I have friends who claim no religious affiliations (some former Christians who got turned off), some never affiliated and a good friend who is Buddhist. I have friends who are gay and "bi". I treat them all the same. I know other Muslims who do likewise. So don't be so shocked. We're all just trying to get through this life.


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## feywon (Aug 31, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> You can quote verses. I suspect you want to do so to rebuke what I have written. But just remember, there are verses to support what I have written as well. And it's well known that the Bible contains contradictions, as some might point out...so does the Quran. I've learned, however, that interpretation has a lot to do with it (in both cases).


Thank you, Diva, that was the point of my remarks about if he quoted the Quran to support his assumptions, prejudice:
All scriptures are open to interpretation, for good and ill.
The Abrahamic (again for those who don't know their theological history- Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the Grandfather, Father and Son faiths who are founded on the same beliefs and practices) religions are particularly prone, susceptible due to all the translations and interpretations, as evidenced by the many 'cousins'---all the small offshoot sects that use the same scriptures but interpret differently.

Another point was that unless the reader knows at least some of the original language they don't have enough info on which to base their 'interpretations' of the scriptures. Correct me if i'm wrong but at one time weren't Muslim children required to read the Quran in the original for precisely that reason? Catholic church for a long time discouraged any independent reading of the Bible because they felt it would 'confuse' people. (Not surprising for a clergy that handpicked what books were included and which were ignored.) i was impressed with JW's encouraging people to read for themselves till i realized from research and personal experience with their 'missionaries' that they actually do a good bit of 'guiding' converts' interpretations down the path founder Russell laid out.

All the previous contributed to my leaving organized religion, a spiritual choice which was essentially confirmed during NDE. But last night reading this thread it occurred me that over the years i've known Atheists who would get good chuckle out these debates, some of them would likely condescendingly compare it to arguments about comic book heroes. i generally point out to them that the flaws in religions can all be traced to human flaws, human tendencies--including starting out with good intentions but sometimes getting corrupted by the power over other humans faith can wield.   Western religions aren't alone in preaching charitable acts, compassion, but as @Warrigal pointed out they are also not alone in having the principles of their faith misused, misapplied by their followers.

To quote  Walt Kelly's Pogo--"We have met the enemy and he is us."  Which was a parody of a statement made by a General in the War of 1812 ("We have met the enemy and he is ours."-- Wm. H. Harrison)    36. “We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us” – Tales from the Vault: 40 Years / 40 Stories (osu.edu)


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## helenbacque (Aug 31, 2021)

My problem with the Muslim belief is simple - extreme abuse of females as in 'honor' killings and female genital mutilation.


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## feywon (Aug 31, 2021)

Abuse of females was not what Muhammed preached. That is one of those distortions by some 'followers'.
Do you blame all Mormons for the abuses in the sect led by Warren Jeffs?  All Christians for the the oppression of women many Christian sects  favor, the child abuse by both Catholic priests and Protestant clergy and 'Youth ministers'?


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I saw a couple of comments on a thread that sadly was closed because more discussion is needed on the topic of Muslims and spreading love.  @mellowyellow said "people who follow Islam scare her to death". That's sad! I wonder why? @senior chef theorized about an insane percentage of Muslims who are terrorists based upon what.....???
> 
> First of all, let me say that Muslims who join these terrorist organizations are IMO on the same level as those who join the KKK and used racial hatred to kill innocent Blacks and Jews. Islam DOES NOT condone their actions. Suicide is a *big sin* in Islam, thus suicide bombers are creating the ultimate sins by 1. Killing themselves 2. Killing/harming innocents and 3. Lying on God (by claiming these acts in His name).
> 
> ...


I am so sorry you saw those threads!  I saw one comment on one thread that was offensive to both Muslims, Jews, and me  and suggested that the person to remove it.  I hope they did.  It is so strange, I just had a discussion with a neighbor yesterday where we agreed *there is only one GOD.*

we may refer to this one God by different names, but there is only one God.  The difference is in the what I like to call trickle down effect of mans‘ interpretation of God”s meaning.  So different religions, different religious leaders, etc.

We agree for sure on this


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Hi Warrigal,
> Do you think it is safe for me to quote verses from the Quran without being banned ? If so, I would only post the quotes and not say a single other word.


Write what you want and the moderators will judge if you get banned or not


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> You sound like the fifteen year old girls who used to ask my permission for something they planned to do. In most cases it was a trap. If I gave my approval without knowing exactly what they had in mind (they tended to leave out details that they knew I would not sanction) then when the excrement hit the rotor they would say, "But Miss said it was OK".
> 
> I'm sure you will excuse me if I don't give you my answer.
> I'll just remind you of the proverb, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread".


Well, I guess I answered for you . He’s got my permission


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

senior chef said:


> How conveniently you forget about the 4 hijacked passenger jets on 9-11.   maybe it was those darn Eskimos ?


See, you should have stuck with a quote or bowing out of the conversation.  The question of radicals has been addressed, you have insulted Eskimos by linking them to 911 (no dash), and don’t you live in Mexico?  Are you a citizen of the USA, Mexico, or both?

Cause I am a bit touchy, ok very touchy, about the subject of 911 and 911 comments.


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Poster time!!!
> 
> View attachment 181277


Wonderful, just wonderful


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

feywon said:


> Thank you, Diva, that was the point of my remarks about if he quoted the Quran to support his assumptions, prejudice:
> All scriptures are open to interpretation, for good and ill.
> The Abrahamic (again for those who don't know their theological history- Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the Grandfather, Father and Son faiths who are founded on the same beliefs and practices) religions are particularly prone susceptible due to all the translations and interpretations, as evidenced by the many 'cousins'---all the small offshoot sects that use the same scriptures but interpret differently.
> 
> ...


As far as I know the Catholic Church still does not encourage the reading of the Bible.  After all the Bible was written by old men with bad memories relying on hearsay and rumors


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> My problem with the Muslim belief is simple - extreme abuse of females as in 'honor' killings and female genital mutilation.


Hmm, I dislike the honor killing part, of course, and many other cultures engage in female mutilation.  But, Catholic priests and the Catholic Church engaged in horrific deeds as well.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

I'm going out on a limb here but I'd say that real Muslims and probably many real Non-Muslim peoples as well believe that C-A-T spells 

Then though, there are probably a few others who would argue the point that in some other language or alphabet, C-A-T does not spell 

There will always be some who wish to argue, possibly because they derive some pleasure from doing so. I say, let cooler heads prevail, no matter their religious affiliation or lack thereof.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, I dislike the honor killing part, of course, and many other cultures engage in female mutilation.  But, Catholic priests and the Catholic Church engaged in horrific deeds as well.


And let's not forget that many males undergo circumcision without their consent due to religious traditions.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 31, 2021)

This is a great thread, thanks Diva.  


senior chef said:


> How conveniently you forget about the 4 hijacked passenger jets on 9-11. maybe it was those darn Eskimos ?


Can we blame Christians or Christianity for the Oklahoma City bombing?  Timothy McVeigh was Christian.


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is a great thread, thanks Diva.
> 
> Can we blame Christians or Christianity for the Oklahoma City bombing?  Timothy McVeigh was Christian.


We could and some people may but that doesn't make it so. Personally I think that some people just do bad things and blame doesn't undo the damage. Oftentimes laying and holding onto blame just delays the healing of the original tragic action. Whom shall we blame for our inability to get along on the same planet? Is that a religious fault or a man made situation? You decide.


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## Warrigal (Aug 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> As far as I know the Catholic Church still does not encourage the reading of the Bible.  After all the Bible was written by old men with bad memories relying on hearsay and rumors


I am not a member of the Catholic church but I did teach in a Catholic school for 25 years and can assure everyone that reading the scriptures has been encouraged by the laity ever since Vatican II in 1962-65. The switch from the Latin mass to the vernacular and reading the bible for oneself took some adjustment for many but it is part and parcel of Catholic practice today. Personal meditation on passages of scripture in a group or alone is not uncommon.


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## Gary O' (Aug 31, 2021)

Have we mentioned monks yet?

I think I'm headed there
They've got cool dress codes and hoodies


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 31, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is a great thread, thanks Diva.
> 
> Can we blame Christians or Christianity for the Oklahoma City bombing?  Timothy McVeigh was Christian.


You're welcome Alligatorob. Thank you for saying that! I'm glad the discussion has not be halted.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2021)

Some Christians have treated various other Christians very poorly indeed, simply because they disagreed with their interpretation  of the Faith. This intolerance can be found in many religions. So can love, tolerance, and understanding. Some of the most loving people I know are  Muslim refugees.


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## Knight (Aug 31, 2021)

Maybe clarifying the differance between being a Muslim & following the religion of Muslims would make a differance. 

Misuses of Islam and Muslim

Islam : grammatically speaking, Islam should only refer to the religion or acts done in the name of that religion, never a person who practices that religion. Islamic community and Islamic art are correct, Islamic man is not.
Muslim  should be used to describe all people of the Islamic faith but not the faith itself. You may say that you are interested in the religion of Muslims, but never in the Muslim religion.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-muslim/

Following that. In the Quran like the bible there are directions for the faithful to follow. IMO the directions in the bible have pretty much been eliminated by civil law. But within the Islamic faith there are radicals that cling to directions contrary to what civil society views as acceptable now. 

Probably the best example  I can think of is what is taking place in Afghanistan right now.

Muslims are fleeing other Muslims. Radical Islamics vs. peaceful Muslims.


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## Lara (Aug 31, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Do you think it is safe for me to quote verses from the Quran without being banned ? If so, I would only post the quotes and not say a single other word.


@senior chef , I can't speak for admin but I can speak from my experience.
I have quoted the Bible multiple times over the years and have never been banned.

And I've also said more than "a single word". But I don't argue or try to change anyone's mind. I simply give the Bible's perspective in the discussion. And sometimes clarify misunderstandings about what it's saying as I see it.


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## oldman (Aug 31, 2021)

Pecos said:


> Diva, yours is an excellent post. It is such a shame that so many evil people are willing to distort religion for their own purposes and it is such a shame that so many other people are so willing to believe the worst without even thinking. I have known a number of Muslims and I never detected the least difference between their value system and mine.
> 
> You are absolutely right that the biggest threat in this country right now is white supremacy. I worry a great deal about what they are trying to do.


Define: White Supremacy and not the political jargon off the Internet.


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## Marie5656 (Aug 31, 2021)

*An anecdote from several years ago. I was at the dentist office waiting room waiting on a friend I had given a ride to. A young Muslim employee was busily and happily decorating the office Christmas tree.  I went over to chat, "Nice tree and all that".  She said something along the line that it was her first Christmas here in this country and LOVED al the holiday things..the lights, decorations, and even the spirit of the season.  So, even though she was Muslim, she was respectful of beliefs that were not her own.  There was no one else there, beside the receptionist. This young lady leaned over and said, softly, "I do not like what my people have done to yours. I assume referencing 9/11,*


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## Tish (Aug 31, 2021)

I am afraid hijacking someone religion is part of the norm.
This has been going on since 1099 when the First Crusade for Jerusalem was launched.
Later on, in the year 1478, The Spanish Inquisition was launched and so on and so forth all through History someone has hijacked a religion and have killed millions in the name of God and sadly this will continue because no one has learnt anything from History.


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## helenbacque (Aug 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, I dislike the honor killing part, of course, and many other cultures engage in female mutilation.  But, Catholic priests and the Catholic Church engaged in horrific deeds as well.



As well as the Christians who try to 'pray away the gay'.  Responsible for many teen suicides.  It's horrible what we do to others in the name of religion.


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## Aneeda72 (Aug 31, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> As well as the Christians who try to 'pray away the gay'.  Responsible for many teen suicides.  It's horrible what we do to others in the name of religion.


As great grandmother to a great granddaughter who is non-binary anyone who tries to “pray away the gay” sickens me.  She is often mistaken for a boy and at 10 has not yet decided but is exploring her possibilities.  We are careful to simply accept her.

Two of my three granddaughters went to their senior proms with girls as they were non binary as well.  As one person put it (I forget who) you love who you love; that’s all that matters.


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## DaveA (Aug 31, 2021)

Although I have no interest in joining a "quote fest", I can only imagine that a positive or negative view of any religious (or political) group can be created by "cherry picking" quotes that will support one's  personal viewpoint.


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## Shero (Aug 31, 2021)

I share the thoughts of this great man : "God has no religion" (Mahatma Ghandi)


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## Gary O' (Aug 31, 2021)

I have great respect for devout folks, no matter their persuasion
I'm thankful for the friends I have from many beliefs
Very eye opening
Seems the thread of *be nice* is pretty much woven all thru the ones with which I've touched

I'm also thankful for my belief, my Savior 

I need that forgiveness

I really....really....need it


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## feywon (Aug 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> As great grandmother to a great granddaughter who is non-binary anyone who tries to “pray away the gay” sickens me.  She is often mistaken for a boy and at 10 has not yet decided but is exploring her possibilities.  We are careful to simply accept her.
> 
> Two of my three granddaughters went to their senior proms with girls as they were non binary as well.  As one person put it (I forget who) you love who you love; that’s all that matters.


Absolutely: Love is love!


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## Chris P Bacon (Aug 31, 2021)

oldman said:


> Define: White Supremacy and not the political jargon off the Internet.


What color is the background of the screen you’re reading this on? White? Yeah, I thought so!
Even electronics are racist! ‍


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## Lara (Aug 31, 2021)

DaveA said:


> Although I have no interest in joining a "quote fest", I can only imagine that a positive or negative view of any religious (or political) group can be created by "cherry picking" quotes that will support one's  personal viewpoint.


If you mean cherry-picking quotes out of context to give false support for one's personal viewpoint, then yes that would not be ethical. But to satisfy the naysayers that ask "where's your source", then quoting the source can't be wrong...can it? Because I'm about to do it . I hope it doesn't offend anyone. If it does I hope they just put me on ignore or just walk away and not read it. I've never forced anyone to read what  my belief is, my faith.


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## Lara (Aug 31, 2021)

Shero said:


> I share the thoughts of this great man : "God has no religion" (Mahatma Ghandi)


God actually defines religion in the Bible: "the system of worshiping God is not a matter of observing rites and rituals; rather, it involves practical help for those in need and living a pure life, separated from the sin of the world." James 1:27

I attend a church that worships God and focuses on helping those in need, as well as supporting one another to live pure lives separated from sin.

The word _religion_ is used in many contexts, but there is a difference between false religion and true. Similarly, there is a difference between religion to look religious and religion to cultivate a deeper relationship with Christ.

...........................................................
2 Timothy 3:1–5, we are warned that people can have “a form of godliness” without their religious activity making any meaningful difference in their lives. Despite their external ceremonies, they remain unloving, unthankful, uncontrolled, and unrepentant. The scriptural instruction is “Have nothing to do with such people.” Jesus described those who were undoubtedly religious in Matthew 7:21–22, yet His final word to them is, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (verse 23).

As James 1:27 says, true religion in God’s eyes makes a difference in who we are and what we do. It is religion based on relationship: Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commands” (John 14:15). Obedience is the proof of love. We love God because He loved us first (1 John 4:19), and our love leads us to action; it is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10). This religion of relationship is not based on what we do for God; it is based on what He has done for us. We are not trusting in our performance but in a Person—Jesus Christ.


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## Lara (Aug 31, 2021)

Allah and God are not really the same.

God and Jesus Christ are One, with whom one can develop a relationship with Christ as one's Savior from sin.
Jesus Christ is significant in the Christian profile.

Allah is apart from Christ. Muslims don't believe Christ as Savior nor God. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there is no personal relationship between Muslims and Allah. Christ is the bridge between Christians and God for developing a personal relationship.

Fact: There are good and bad people in all groups, everywhere, in every era of time since Satan entered the Garden of Eden.
So blame and cultural stereotyping is just ignorant. As comedian Bob Newhart (age 91) once said, "Stop it. Just stop it."

I respect all good people from other religions that don't agree with my religion. God says love one another. And I do.
I have some serious issues with parts of the Quran that are currently obeyed in the world...but the good followers of the Quran may also.


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## Shero (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> God actually defines religion in the Bible: "the system of worshiping God is not a matter of observing rites and rituals; rather, it involves practical help for those in need and living a pure life, separated from the sin of the world." James 1:27
> 
> I attend a church that worships God and focuses on helping those in need, as well as supporting one another to live pure lives separated from sin.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your lovely post Lara. I do enjoy reading about others' beliefs. I appreciate what you have to say and I am sure you have no real problem with my beliefs even though they may differ somewhat from yours. I am a great admirer of Mahatma Ghandi and I would like to share another quote of his with you:

"No religion which is narrow and which cannot satisfy the test of reason, will survive the coming reconstruction of society in which the values will have changed and character, not possession of wealth, title or birth will be the test of merit."


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## Warrigal (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> Fact: Allah and God are not the same.
> Sorry Lara, but this sounds very dogmatic. It is a reasonable statement if you leave out the word Fact and the underlining.
> God and Jesus Christ are One...with whom one can develop a relationship with Christ as one's Saviour from sin.
> Many Christians theologians today would argue that Jesus was fully human, not divine.
> Allah is apart from Christ. Muslims don't believe Christ as Saviour nor God. Nor do most Jews. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there is no personal relationship between Muslims and Allah. I'm not sure about that either. Sufis might be a bit different. Christ is the bridge between Christians and God for developing a personal relationship.  Muslims regard Jesus as a prophet and revere him as such. The God of all Creation is the same for Jews, Christians and Muslims. Only the imagery and the name varies. None of this matters to me very much. I resonate with the writing of Paul in Corinthians 13 where he talks of our imperfect understanding in this life: Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.





Lara said:


> There are good and bad people in all groups, everywhere, in every era of time since Satan entered the Garden of Eden.
> So blame and cultural stereotyping is just ignorant. As comedian Bob Newhart (age 91) once said, "Stop it. Just stop it."
> Couldn't agree more. Life is to short to waste time blaming others. We need to deal with the log in our own eyes first.


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## jerry old (Sep 1, 2021)

Warrigal, like your grasp of Paul.  "None of this matters to me very much. I resonate with the writing of Paul in Corinthians 13 where he talks of our imperfect understanding in this life: Now we see but a..."
...through a glass darkly.'

This thread could become incendiary_ in a heartbeat.

Watched two hours of NYC Fireman trying to rescue their on on 9/11. still terrible, always will be._


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## Warrigal (Sep 1, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Warrigal, like your grasp of Paul.  "None of this matters to me very much. I resonate with the writing of Paul in Corinthians 13 where he talks of our imperfect understanding in this life: Now we see but a..."
> ...through a glass darkly.'
> 
> This thread could become incendiary_ in a heartbeat.
> ...


Heart breaking. I woke and heard on the radio that a plane had struck the first tower and turned on the telly. I watched it happen in real time and it was horrific. Also horrific is the far greater number of lives lost since in retaliatory warfare. How do we make sense of it all? I cannot, but the suffering has not stopped. 

All I can think of at this moment is the Amnesty motto - "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness". We all have to decide what words will guide us to make this a better world.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> God actually defines religion in the Bible: "the system of worshiping God is not a matter of observing rites and rituals; rather, it involves practical help for those in need and living a pure life, separated from the sin of the world." James 1:27
> 
> I attend a church that worships God and focuses on helping those in need, as well as supporting one another to live pure lives separated from sin.
> 
> ...


I disagree.  I believe you are used to me disagreeing by now .  No offense is meant.

Your quotes are written my men, not God, it was men that wrote the Bible, men that defined religion.  As far as I know, God wrote the Ten Commandments not the Bible.  I don’t remember God referring to the Bible in the ten commandments.  I might be wrong.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> Allah and God are not really the same.
> 
> God and Jesus Christ are One, with whom one can develop a relationship with Christ as one's Savior from sin.
> Jesus Christ is significant in the Christian profile.
> ...


I, hmm, disagree again .

God is the English word for, well, God.  I think in the King James Version of the Bible God refers to himself/herself as “The Great I Am”.  God has not revealed His actual name to anyone, as far as I know.

I guess we didn’t want to go around calling God, The Great I Am, so we named him God.  His name could be God or Allah or Pete for all we know.  *There is only one God.* *I actually think God is quote somewhere in the Bible as saying there is only one God.  But idk.

(I can not get the bold turned off ). *


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## Lara (Sep 1, 2021)

@Aneeda72 , I couldn't agree more that there is only one God.

@Warrigal , thank you for your suggestion to take out the word "fact" and the unlined one word. It's incredible that when I first entered the thread this morning, I hadn't read your post but was reviewing mine and made those two very edits you suggested. Then I read your post. I must have read your mind lol.

My daughter also gave me a tip this morning about my posts. She said, people don't want to read what it says in the Bible when they don't believe in the Bible. She said it's like I'm telling people they are wrong. She suggested I get in a small group of like-minded followers in my church to have a place to discuss these things.

@Shero , your post is a perfect example for me as well as others as to how to respond to to a sensitive subject by a member like as myself. I'm trying. I'm still learning. And of course my daughter is saying "Mom just stay away".
And thank you Shero for sharing your quote from Ghandi. It's a good one.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> @Aneeda72 , I couldn't agree more that there is only one God.
> 
> @Warrigal , thank you for your suggestion to take out the word "fact" and the unlined one word. It's incredible that when I first entered the thread this morning, I hadn't read your post but was reviewing mine and made those two very edits you suggested. Then I read your post. I must have read your mind lol.
> 
> ...


First, don’t stay away.  It’s a discussion and your imput is appreciated and valued @Lara.  I believe in the Bible, I just believe different than you .

Daughters, daughters and sons .  I have only been on one other forum and it was not the great experience that this one is.  My son and daughter had a long talk with me about on line forums and friends.  They didn’t say “stay away”.  They said remember very few people are “real”.

I think there are several “real” people here.  But some are not.  The trick is realizing which is which, and that is often very hard.


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## Oris Borloff (Sep 1, 2021)

@OneEyedDiva ,

I'm curious to what attracted you to Islam from Christianity?   Was it just a "better fit"?   If you already have addressed this somewhere and care to redirect me I'd appreciate that.  If you don't care to answer or simply can't answer it in a few sentences, that's understandable.

Interesting to read the thread, thank you.


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 1, 2021)

Islam seems easier to spell but I'm pretty sure that that wasn't anything to do with the decision.
It's great though that unlike in politics, one has more than just two choices of whom to choose!


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## Shero (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> Your post is a perfect example for me as well as others as to how to respond to to a sensitive subject by a member like as myself. I'm trying. I'm still learning. And of course my daughter is saying "Mom just stay away".
> And thank you Shero for sharing your quote from Ghandi. It's a good one.


Thank you Lara and no, you must not stay away.. Let your light shine and in that way, you give others permission to do the same


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 1, 2021)

This might be a good starting point to research - *https://www.uri.org/kids/world-religions/muslim-beliefs*


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## oldman (Sep 1, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> What color is the background of the screen you’re reading this on? White? Yeah, I thought so!
> Even electronics are racist! ‍


You make me laugh.


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## fuzzybuddy (Sep 1, 2021)

Extremism is not unknown to religious fanatics. I've had people, at my door, screaming that I'm " going to hell" for not following in their beliefs, and their traditions. As an atheist, I do not believe there is a divine source of hate, and distrust, there is only man, and extremists are extremists.


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## oldman (Sep 1, 2021)

I didn’t read all of the posts, but what is a “real” Muslim? Are there different sects like maybe a splinter group? Maybe I am being obtuse?


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## RadishRose (Sep 1, 2021)

oldman said:


> Are there different sects


Yes.


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## Lara (Sep 1, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Extremism is not unknown to religious fanatics. I've had people, at my door, screaming that I'm " going to hell" for not following in their beliefs


...you've had people at your door screaming that you're going to hell? "people"...as in plural? Are you provoking these people? I mean, no offense, but that's never happened to me, ever, nor have I ever known anyone where screaming and damning is going on....on their doorstep. I'd call 911. Extremists are scary in this day and age.


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## charry (Sep 1, 2021)

They believe in the Koran , that there’s only one god.....and Mohammed is there only disciple.....


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## oldman (Sep 1, 2021)

charry said:


> They believe in the Koran , that there’s only one god.....and Mohammed is there only disciple.....


I need to brush up on my Muslim knowledge. Thanks for the reply.


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## Lara (Sep 1, 2021)

oldman said:


> I didn’t read all of the posts, but what is a “real” Muslim? Are there different sects like maybe a splinter group? Maybe I am being obtuse?


I think what Diva meant by "real Muslims" is that the true followers of Muslim, that she knows, are peaceful and not terrorists.


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## StarSong (Sep 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> *I can't change what's in the Bible, Torah or Quran *Star. But I will say this. I have friends who claim no religious affiliations (some former Christians who got turned off), some never affiliated and a good friend who is Buddhist. I have friends who are gay and "bi". I treat them all the same. I know other Muslims who do likewise. So don't be so shocked. We're all just trying to get through this life.


Understood.  Nevertheless it disturbs me deeply to have just learned that Muslims can remain true to the Quran while denying wide swaths of humanity (meaning people who aren't "of the books") from having rights or being treated equally and justly.  More than 1/2 of the world's population wouldn't qualify.  

@OneEyedDiva, I respect and like you, and get that you and your friends may not follow this pattern, but the very fact that Islam states it  is enough to make me very wary of that religion.

Far warier than I was before reading this thread, to be honest. Indeed, it makes me very, very nervous.


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## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2021)

If one reads the Old Testament, it contains  some truly horrific passages about what is lawful treatment of those who are not Jews. Fortunately, times have changed, somewhat, although Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli 

Muslims. Sadly, some  extremist Christians, who also follow these biblical tenets, have committed atrocities on those, Christian, or otherwise, who did not subscribe to their narrow views. Other religions are not exempt from this 

behaviour. Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims.   Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.


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## oldman (Sep 1, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Understood.  Nevertheless it disturbs me deeply to have just learned that Muslims can remain true to the Quran while denying wide swaths of humanity (meaning people who aren't "of the books") from having rights or being treated equally and justly.  More than 1/2 of the world's population wouldn't qualify.
> 
> @OneEyedDiva, I respect and like you, and get that you and your friends may not follow this pattern, but the very fact that Islam states it  is enough to make me very wary of that religion.
> 
> Far warier than I was before reading this thread, to be honest. Indeed, it makes me very, very nervous.


It’s funny that you say this. While flying before 9/11, I was always kind of suspicious of mid easterners when any mid easterners came onboard. Remember, mid easterners were involved in other airplane incidents prior to 9/11. Two that come to mind immediately are Air India in the early 80’s and also a Pan Am flight 103 over Scotland. (Lockerbie)

I don’t normally stereotype people, but for whatever reason, I think it’s somewhat accepted for many Americans to be vigilant when they see mid easterners getting on their plane. Is it stereotyping or just being careful?


----------



## oldman (Sep 1, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> If one reads the Old Testament, it contains  some truly horrific passages about what is lawful treatment of those who are not Jews. Fortunately, times have changed, somewhat, although Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli
> 
> Muslims. Sadly, some  extremist Christians, who also follow these biblical tenets, have committed atrocities on those, Christian, or otherwise, who did not subscribe to their narrow views. Other religions are not exempt from this
> 
> behaviour. Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims.   Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.


If you are talking about people like Koresh in Waco and Lundgren in Ohio, I agree. I would imagine all or most religions have their share of ideological people who misinterpret passages in the Bible, or maybe apply their own interpretation to the passages.


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## StarSong (Sep 1, 2021)

Since this thread was focused on Muslims and my conversation with Diva was regarding something in the Quran, that's where I was confining my remarks.  

There's no question that Christians of every sect have also proven themselves to be horrifically bloodthirsty and untrustworthy.  I believe religions are created by humans to provide power to a few, control the masses' behaviors, and shield men (mostly men) from being held responsible for unconscionable acts.    

All major religions scare me. Messages of peace, love, gentleness and charity get bastardized by those with big enough swords, guns and missiles to get their way, or enough charisma to sway the masses and pick their pockets.


----------



## feywon (Sep 1, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> What color is the background of the screen you’re reading this on? White? Yeah, I thought so!
> Even electronics are racist! ‍


Ah, but the letters are are most likely black!


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 1, 2021)

oldman said:


> Is it stereotyping or just being careful?


I think its both.  Natural for us to worry about people who look a bit like the people who tend to hijack planes.  I might do the same.  Its just human nature.

However we need to understand rationally that such an event is extremely unlikely, probably less likely than dying in a car wreck on the way to the airport.  And be careful not to let  our instinctive reactions lead us to do irrational things, like discriminate against someone.  Our instincts evolved in a very different world.  A place where anyone we did not know was a threat and needed to be avoided or even killed.  Overcoming instincts like that is what allowed for development of civilization.  Shouldn't reverse that process!


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> ...you've had people at your door screaming that you're going to hell? "People"?...as in plural? Are you provoking these people? I mean, no offense, but that's never happened to me, ever, nor have I ever known anyone where screaming and damning is going on....on their doorstep. I'd call 911. Extremists are scary in this day and age.


Yeah, I’ve never had that either and I get plenty of LDS and Jehovah Witnesses.  I actually don’t know any others that come to the door.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Understood.  Nevertheless it disturbs me deeply to have just learned that Muslims can remain true to the Quran while denying wide swaths of humanity (meaning people who aren't "of the books") from having rights or being treated equally and justly.  More than 1/2 of the world's population wouldn't qualify.
> 
> @OneEyedDiva, I respect and like you, and get that you and your friends may not follow this pattern, but the very fact that Islam states it  is enough to make me very wary of that religion.
> 
> Far warier than I was before reading this thread, to be honest. Indeed, it makes me very, very nervous.


Well, I am very very nervous of head hunters in the Amazon, yes there are still some, although I don’t know what God they worship.  There is always someone to be nervous about despite their religious beliefs.

There was just a shooting at a high school in North Carolina.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I think its both.  Natural for us to worry about people who look a bit like the people who tend to hijack planes.  I might do the same.  Its just human nature.
> 
> However we need to understand rationally that such an event is extremely unlikely, probably less likely than dying in a car wreck on the way to the airport.  And be careful not to let  our instinctive reactions lead us to do irrational things, like discriminate against someone.  Our instincts evolved in a very different world.  A place where anyone we did not know was a threat and needed to be avoided or even killed.  Overcoming instincts like that is what allowed for development of civilization.  Shouldn't reverse that process!


Hmm, lots of white christian people have hijacked planes so not sure what you mean.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

oldman said:


> It’s funny that you say this. While flying before 9/11, I was always kind of suspicious of mid easterners when any mid easterners came onboard. Remember, mid easterners were involved in other airplane incidents prior to 9/11. Two that come to mind immediately are Air India in the early 80’s and also a Pan Am flight 103 over Scotland. (Lockerbie)
> 
> I don’t normally stereotype people, but for whatever reason, I think it’s somewhat accepted for many Americans to be vigilant when they see mid easterners getting on their plane. Is it stereotyping or just being careful?


Stereotyping for sure


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## Pinky (Sep 1, 2021)

We've had Jehovah Witnesses who told us we're going to Hell to burn for eternity. I worked with a young woman who used to do the same. She was warned many times, not to push religion at work. Telling the JW's that we were Buddhist, got rid of them fairly quickly.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 1, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> If one reads the Old Testament, it contains  some truly horrific passages about what is lawful treatment of those who are not Jews. Fortunately, times have changed, somewhat, although Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli
> 
> Muslims. Sadly, some  extremist Christians, who also follow these biblical tenets, have committed atrocities on those, Christian, or otherwise, who did not subscribe to their narrow views. Other religions are not exempt from this
> 
> behaviour. Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims.   Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.




I strongly dispute your statement that "Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli Muslims."  Israeli Jews have certain rights (like the right of return) denied Israeli Muslims.  But millions of Muslim women have no rights at all.  And millions more Muslims live in cruel theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 1, 2021)

I could not find anywhere that broke down hijacking of planes by religion or even race.  Maybe someone else can.  I did find that the golden age of hijacking, in the USA, was from May 1961 to the end of 1972.

*There were 159 hijackings.*

A lot of these were done by Cubans who wanted to return to Cuba according to what I read.  Guess one boat ride across the ocean was enough.


----------



## Forerunner (Sep 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I saw a couple of comments on a thread that sadly was closed because more discussion is needed on the topic of Muslims and spreading love.  @mellowyellow said "people who follow Islam scare her to death". That's sad! I wonder why? @senior chef theorized about an insane percentage of Muslims who are terrorists based upon what.....???
> 
> First of all, let me say that Muslims who join these terrorist organizations are IMO on the same level as those who join the KKK and used racial hatred to kill innocent Blacks and Jews. Islam DOES NOT condone their actions. Suicide is a *big sin* in Islam, thus suicide bombers are creating the ultimate sins by 1. Killing themselves 2. Killing/harming innocents and 3. Lying on God (by claiming these acts in His name).
> 
> ...


I have a friend who is a devout Sunni Muslim. He is a decent, honorable, respectable, hard-working man who is a great guy to go fishing with. In 8 years of knowing that I was a follower of Jesus, the only time he did anything towards converting me was when he saw me struggling with my faith. He offered me his faith, I said no thank you, and that was it. He was concerned about me.
For the vast majority of all of us, we just want to raise our families in peace. I'm not afraid of Muslims. However, my Muslim neighbors have come around with food to give me. I don't know what it was, but was it ever good! Our God is the God of Abraham.


----------



## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I strongly dispute your statement that "Israeli Zionism is cruel toward Palestinians and the Israeli Muslims."  Israeli Jews have certain rights (like the right of return) denied Israeli Muslims.  But millions of Muslim women have no rights at all.  And millions more Muslims live in cruel theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia.


With respect, I believe many Palestinians would disagree with you. Certainly my Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members would. As would the forty percent of my family who are Jews. Extremism is global, and it destroys lives in many different ways.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 1, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> With respect, I believe many Palestinians would disagree with you. Certainly my Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members would. As would the forty percent of my family who are Jews. Extremism is global, and it destroys lives in many different ways.




Ok.  We agree to disagree.  But remember your Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks.  No attacks, no retribution.


----------



## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Ok.  We agree to disagree.  But remember your Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks.  No attacks, no retribution.


Again we disagree, but it is refreshing to be able to share disparate opinions without rancour. I hope you have a great day.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 1, 2021)

One of the things that fascinates me the most is the argument certain bigoted Christians make when they claim Islam is "sexist" and anti female.  This despite the fact that 70% of all converts to the religion both in the US and in Europe are female.  If it is so sexist, then how does it manage to attract so many women?

Just a couple of hours ago I was on a chat where we were discussing Dutch colonialism in Indonesia. One person who has considerably more knowledge on that subject than I do mentioned how the daughters of Dutch colonialists often married Indonesia men and how they readily accepted Islam.  Ironically just yesterday I was on another chat where someone said that the only good that will come out of all these Afghans coming into America and Europe is that they will spread Islam as many will easily convert to it. 

I have absolutely no objection to anyone exercising their conscience.  What ever religion they chose is their business not mine. But for some reason I cannot understand how is it that Islam so easily converts people everywhere it goes.  Again, no objection on my part.  Bear in mind that most of my ancient ancestors were Jews who lived in Spain.  History shows that Muslims saved the lives of tens of thousands of Jews who would have been exterminated by Christians if Muslims had not defended them.  Same thing happened in Albania when the Nazis invaded.  Millions of Jews throughout the world owe their lives to the Muslims.  That is a fact.

Who knows?  Maybe some day Islam will be the majority religion in this world. Perhaps we will then have universal  Peace.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 1, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Again we disagree, but it is refreshing to be able to share disparate opinions without rancour. I hope you have a great day.




You too, Shalimar.  You're a kind soul and you have my total respect.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 1, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Since this thread was focused on Muslims and my conversation with Diva was regarding something in the Quran, that's where I was confining my remarks.
> 
> There's no question that Christians of every sect have also proven themselves to be horrifically bloodthirsty and untrustworthy.  I believe religions are created by humans to provide power to a few, control the masses' behaviors, and shield men (mostly men) from being held responsible for unconscionable acts.
> 
> All major religions scare me. Messages of peace, love, gentleness and charity get bastardized by those with big enough swords, guns and missiles to get their way, or enough charisma to sway the masses and pick their pockets.



  On the other hand, countries that have tried to do without religion (USSR, China, North Korea come to mind) haven't done so well either.


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## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> You too, Shalimar.  You're a kind soul and you have my total respect.


Oh, thank you, I am touched by your words. You are an authentic person, and I admire that very much.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I could not find anywhere that broke down hijacking of planes by religion or even race.  Maybe someone else can.  I did find that the golden age of hijacking, in the USA, was from May 1961 to the end of 1972.
> 
> *There were 159 hijackings.*
> 
> A lot of these were done by Cubans who wanted to return to Cuba according to what I read.  Guess one boat ride across the ocean was enough.


I am sure you are right, but the more recent 9/11 hijackings were done by people from the Middle East, mostly Saudis, and I think that is what most people remember best.  I don't believe there were many if any deaths as the result of the Cuban hijackings.

I am not saying its a rational feeling, just the opposite actually.  But it is one a lot of people have, many of our gut reactions are based in instinct and not rational, not if we want to live in a civilized society.  My point is we need to recognize it and not let it cause us to do irrational things.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Palestinian refugee clients who have lost family members lost them because the Israelis retaliated after being on the wrong end of terrorist attacks. No attacks, no retribution.


Wish I had an answer to the Palestinian problem...  You are right the immediate cause of those deaths was Israeli retaliation for attacks, however at least some of the Palestinian victims had nothing to do with those attacks and I suspect many would have been against them.  Result could be more, not less, Palestinian support for the attacks.  Not saying its right, but it is a real problem.  A bad cycle of violence.

I believe the root cause for much of the Palestinian problem dates back to the resettlement of Jews in Palestine and the formation of Israel after WWII.  Given what the Nazis did it was an understandable thing; however this displaced a lot of Palestinians, who were not Nazis or responsible for what the Nazis did.  There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.  

Maybe its another place in the world we are trying to do too much, but given the tight and historical relationship between the West and Israel its hard to disengage.


----------



## Devi (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.


Excellent statement re the Palestinians and Israelis, @Alligatorob.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Wish I had an answer to the Palestinian problem...  You are right the immediate cause of those deaths was Israeli retaliation for attacks, however at least some of the Palestinian victims had nothing to do with those attacks and I suspect many would have been against them.  Result could be more, not less, Palestinian support for the attacks.  Not saying its right, but it is a real problem.  A bad cycle of violence.
> 
> I believe the root cause for much of the Palestinian problem dates back to the resettlement of Jews in Palestine and the formation of Israel after WWII.  Given what the Nazis did it was an understandable thing; however this displaced a lot of Palestinians, who were not Nazis or responsible for what the Nazis did.  There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.
> 
> Maybe its another place in the world we are trying to do too much, but given the tight and historical relationship between the West and Israel its hard to disengage.



I don't disagree with you.  This is a really thorny problem and I'm sure it's aggravated by some of Israel's policies.  However I think there is a lot of bad faith among supporters of the Palestinians.  They overlook terrorist attacks and alliances with groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, yet demand the highest standards of conduct from the Israelis.  Matters aren't helped by people like Rashida Tlaib, who display maps in their offices showing the disappearance of Israel.  

The Israelis might be paranoid, but various Arab states did try to wipe them out in multiple wars over a 25 year period, so a certain amount of paranoia is understandable.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> The Israelis might be paranoid, but various Arab states did try to wipe them out in multiple wars over a 25 year period, so a certain amount of paranoia is understandable.


Absolutely!  However you can't deny that some feelings of resentment at being displaced and losing land on the part of Palestinians is also understandable.  Wish I knew the answer to this one...


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Absolutely!  However you can't deny that some feelings of resentment at being displaced and losing land on the part of Palestinians is also understandable.  Wish I knew the answer to this one...



A two-state solution with an independent Palestine -- backed up with massive amounts of capital and aid to kick-start the Palestinian economy -- seems like a good approach.  Don't know why that doesn't move forward.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

I would point out that the two-state solution has been proposed a number of times, and the Palestinians have always rejected it.  They have always sought the elimination of Israel and the restoration of "historic Palestine."


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> A two-state solution with an independent Palestine -- backed up with massive amounts of capital and aid to kick-start the Palestinian economy -- seems like a good approach.  Don't know why that doesn't move forward.


That could be, but only if it is supported by both sides.  And even if it was accepted in general there are a lot of thorny details to work out. 

Trying to get back to the original idea of this thread it would help to remember that Muslim - Jewish relationships have not always been this bad.  As mentioned by others here there have been times in history that the Muslims have offered sanctuary to the Jews, protecting them from Christians.  Such as during the Inquisition.  It would be in the best interest of us all to find a way back to that more peaceful coexistence


----------



## StarSong (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Wish I had an answer to the Palestinian problem...  You are right the immediate cause of those deaths was Israeli retaliation for attacks, however at least some of the Palestinian victims had nothing to do with those attacks and I suspect many would have been against them.  Result could be more, not less, Palestinian support for the attacks.  Not saying its right, but it is a real problem.  A bad cycle of violence.
> 
> I believe the root cause for much of the Palestinian problem dates back to the resettlement of Jews in Palestine and the formation of Israel after WWII.  Given what the Nazis did it was an understandable thing; however this displaced a lot of Palestinians, who were not Nazis or responsible for what the Nazis did.  There is no going back on history now, but somehow we, or the Palestinians and Israelis, need to come to grips with where we are today.
> 
> Maybe its another place in the world we are trying to do too much, but given the tight and historical relationship between the West and Israel its hard to disengage.


Agree completely with this post.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Wish I knew the answer to this one...




The answer is easy:  a *One State* solution. Force Israel to become a democracy. Had this been done 50+ years ago as so many peace activists like me had suggested the majority of its population would be Muslim who would have imposed democratic reform. This would have made it a more peaceful society in that country and through much of the region.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The answer is easy: a *One State* solution. Force Israel to become a democracy.


This is an attractive idea, and could work, but it has its own complications.  

Where would the boundaries be drawn?  Would it include all of the territory currently occupied or controlled by Israel?  What about the Gaza strip?  Would Palestinians who left have the right to return?  

Forcing Israel to do anything would not be easy, and who would the forcing?


----------



## Pepper (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The answer is easy:  a *One State* solution. Force Israel to become a democracy. Had this been done 50+ years ago as so many peace activists like me had suggested the majority of its population would be Muslim who would have imposed democratic reform. This would have made it a more peaceful society in that country and through much of the region.


Two State.  I spit on what you say above.  Israel is a Jewish state.  Period.  They are absolutely wrong the way they deal with the Palestinians, and I'll spit on that too.  Israel is already a democracy.  If you're going around trying to force people, do it for a two state.  Otherwise.................I remember the ones like you 50 years ago and now.   Jews have been forced throughout history.  No more, and Never Again.  I wonder........................no, never mind, better not ask.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The answer is easy:  a *One State* solution. Force Israel to become a democracy. Had this been done 50+ years ago as so many peace activists like me had suggested the majority of its population would be Muslim who would have imposed democratic reform. This would have made it a more peaceful society in that country and through much of the region.



Hilarious.  Which Arab "democracy" should One State Palestine emulate?  Egypt?  Syria? Saudi Arabia?  There's always non-Arab Iran.   And they're all so...peaceful.  And so great when it comes to women's rights.

Even Jordan only gets a 37/100 on the Freedom House index.  From their report:

"Jordan is a monarchy in which the king plays a dominant role in politics and governance. The parliament’s lower house is elected, but the electoral system puts the opposition at a disadvantage, and the chamber wields little power in practice. The media and civil society groups are hampered by restrictive laws and government pressure. The judicial system lacks independence and often fails to ensure due process."

Israel gets a 76/100 by the way.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2021)

I used to despair at the troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought they would never be resolved. The British troops only seemed to make matters worse and religious differences were used to fan the flames.

Then people of goodwill on both sides started coming together to seek common ground in the interest of peace. It began with women who were fed up with violence and who feared for their children. Eventually a fragile peace was established, the troops pulled out and people learnt to get on with each other. 

Perhaps the answer to the Israeli Palestinian conflict lies in the hearts of the mothers? 

Just a thought.


----------



## Knight (Sep 2, 2021)

Posts about the content of the Bible & Quran and how some use that content to cause death or harm others is sprinkled thru out. Radicals, extremists are words used to describe those that take the content literally.

Atheists' are not mentioned at all as being radicals or extremists detrimental to the human race. 

But this is about Muslims not Islam. 

Misuses of Islam and Muslim

Islam : grammatically speaking, Islam should only refer to the religion or acts done in the name of that religion, never a person who practices that religion. Islamic community and Islamic art are correct, Islamic man is not.
Muslim should be used to describe all people of the Islamic faith but not the faith itself. You may say that you are interested in the religion of Muslims, but never in the Muslim religion.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-islam-and-muslim/


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

Knight said:


> Atheists' are not mentioned at all as being radicals or extremists detrimental to the human race.


Stalin, Mao, what's his name in North Korea...

No one religion or lack there of has a monopoly on evil.  All are capable.  Religion is not really the basis of most evil, just an often used crutch of the perpetrators...


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I used to despair at the troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought they would never be resolved. The British troops only seemed to make matters worse and religious differences were used to fan the flames.
> 
> Then people of goodwill on both sides started coming together to seek common ground in the interest of peace. It began with women who were fed up with violence and who feared for their children. Eventually a fragile peace was established, the troops pulled out and people learnt to get on with each other.
> 
> ...



I think there have been some grassroots peace efforts among Israelis and Palestinians, but to what extent I'm not sure.   

One thing a couple from Northern Ireland once told me is that the rate of violence went down as the rate of Protestant/Catholic intermarriage increased.  

One thing is for sure, the extremists on both sides don't represent what most people really want, which is a peaceful solution.


----------



## CAKCy (Sep 2, 2021)




----------



## RadishRose (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> what's his name in North Korea...


Rocketman?


----------



## Devi (Sep 2, 2021)

Kim Jong-un.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I think there have been some grassroots peace efforts among Israelis and Palestinians, but to what extent I'm not sure.


I hope its happening.  Probably the only way to work this problem out.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 2, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yeah, I’ve never had that either and I get plenty of LDS and Jehovah Witnesses.  I actually don’t know any others that come to the door.


Yes, I had the same problem. I told them to NOT knock on my door any more and wake me up. Finally, in frustration I answered the door stark naked. No more problem. They never again knocked on my door.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Yes, I had the same problem. I told them to NOT knock on my door any more and wake me up. Finally, in frustration I answered the door stark naked. No more problem. They never again knocked on my door.


When I was young we had a lovely Egyptian lady living next door. She was quite sophisticated compared to us Aussies. Mum came in laughing one day when she learned that a young missionary man came knocking on her door and tried to interest her in his brand of religion. Apparently she offered to take him inside and turn his collar round. 

He fled and never returned.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Hilarious.  Which Arab "democracy" should One State Palestine emulate?  Egypt?  Syria? Saudi Arabia?  There's always non-Arab Iran.   And they're all so...peaceful.  And so great when it comes to women's rights.
> 
> Even Jordan only gets a 37/100 on the Freedom House index.  From their report:
> 
> ...





How's Israel "democracy" working out now for Palestinians and the many Christians who were exiled:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that Nobody is Talking About - CounterPunch.org


''there is near consensus that the number of Christian inhabitants of Palestine has dropped by nearly ten-fold in the last 70 years ... 70 years ago, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, was *86 percent* Christian ... The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and *apartheid* should be unmistakable, as it is obvious to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim population alike ... “the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians,” who are finding themselves in “a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves”.



Many in the USA condemn the Taliban for similar actions but applaud it in Israel.  Very ironic, indeed.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This is an attractive idea, and could work, but it has its own complications.
> 
> Where would the boundaries be drawn?  Would it include all of the territory currently occupied or controlled by Israel?  What about the Gaza strip?  Would Palestinians who left have the right to return?
> 
> Forcing Israel to do anything would not be easy, and who would the forcing?





Can't fully say.  But you will recall that the  UN had no trouble with compelling Iraq to recede back into its borders in 1991. Nor did it have any trouble in compelling the Apartheid regime in RSA to reform its government. As you say it would be interesting to see how many Palestinians would come back and how many of the 500,000 Christians who were exiled to do the same.  One can only speculate, I suppose.


----------



## Pepper (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> ''there is near consensus that the number of Christian inhabitants of Palestine has dropped by nearly ten-fold in the last 70 years ... 70 years ago, Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, was *86 percent* Christian ... The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and *apartheid* should be unmistakable, as it is obvious to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim population alike ... “the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians,” who are finding themselves in “a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves”.


Wow.  This almost sounds like black people living in the USA.  Do you propose sending in the U.N. here as well?  We might need to be forced out of it.

Christian anti-semitism over thousands of years, culminating in nazism has caused these problems. Pay up.  Everybody retreat back to where you're from.  Everybody.  Or is it just Jews that interest you?  For one of the tiniest populations on earth, we sure get more than our share of attention.

WE ARE ALL OFF-TOPIC.  Can we return please?  Is it possible to get Jews off your mind?


----------



## senior chef (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> How's Israel "democracy" working out now for Palestinians and the many Christians who were exiled:
> 
> The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that Nobody is Talking About - CounterPunch.org
> 
> ...


We can not even begin to compare the actions of Israel with that of the Taliban.  Take women's rights for example. No Israeli could ever FORCE a woman into marriage. No Israeli beats a woman, (a total stranger) for wearing or not wearing certain clothing. No Israeli stones to death a woman for alleged marital infidelity. In Israel, a woman has the right to go about the town/city without a male relative companion. In Israel, a woman has the right to education. In Israel a woman has the right to pursue a career. In Israel a woman has the right to hold her own passport. The list goes on and on. Need I say more ?


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

senior chef said:


> We can not even begin to compare the actions of Israel with that of the Taliban.  Take women's rights for example. No Israeli could ever FORCE a woman into marriage. No Israeli beats a woman, (a total stranger) for wearing or not wearing certain clothing. No Israeli stones to death a woman for alleged marital infidelity. In Israel, a woman has the right to go about the town/city without a male relative companion. In Israel, a woman has the right to education. In Israel a woman has the right to pursue a career. In Israel a woman has the right to hold her own passport. The list goes on and on. Need I say more ?





Commentators today do not dare compare Israel to the Taliban.  However they have compared them to Nazis:


ALBERT EINSTEIN'S 1948 LETTER to the NEW YORK TIMES

COMPARING ISRAELI POLITICIANS TO THE NAZIS.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/55028b92112...D78C7FDC029A29AE3&disposition=0&alloworigin=1



On December 2, 1948 Albert Einstein was one of the signers of an open letter to the New York Times,1 comparing the politicians of Israel to the Nazis.  The letter was a warning to the American public and to the people of the world of the true intentions of the new "Freedom Party".  Supporting the present Prime Minister Menachem Begin was like supporting the Nazis. The following is the letter signed by Einstein and other prominent Jews:



"TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

                 "Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and the following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist,  right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
"The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
            "Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. 


"The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

            Enclosed with the letter was a clipping from the New York Times of the article on the village oF Deir Yassin, which reads as follows: 

            "A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war,, and had even 



fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base.  On April 9 terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants "240 men, women and children" and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem.  Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin." 

               "The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

            "Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

            "During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population.

            "The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

            "The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

            "In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.           

            "The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

"ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. ORLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGER, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SCHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. ZNGER, IRMA WOLPE, STEFAN WOLPE"





^ All great Jewish scholars and social reformers.  

But they are hardly alone:











Google for their views on Israel's daily conduct.  They even pray for that state's dissolution in compliance with biblical law.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Wow.  This almost sounds like black people living in the USA.  Do you propose sending in the U.N. here as well?  We might need to be forced out of it.
> 
> Christian anti-semitism over thousands of years, culminating in nazism has caused these problems. Pay up.  Everybody retreat back to where you're from.  Everybody.  Or is it just Jews that interest you?  For one of the tiniest populations on earth, we sure get more than our share of attention.
> 
> WE ARE ALL OFF-TOPIC.  Can we return please?  Is it possible to get Jews off your mind?




Being Jewish myself it's a bit difficult to stop thinking about the subject.  Am about to take my daily constitutional and, as usual,  will wear my FREE PALESTINE wristband and Menorah medallion. Both very comforting to have. 

As for sending the UN to stop anti black government violence, hey, not a bad idea since the USA does so overseas to stop what it considers unnecessary evils overseas. What's good for the goose being good for the gander.


----------



## Pepper (Sep 2, 2021)

I know you are Jewish @oldiebutgoody.   I can Always Tell.  Now, let's stop dissing @OneEyedDiva and go back to HER topic.  Thank you.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> How's Israel "democracy" working out now for Palestinians and the many Christians who were exiled:
> 
> The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinian Christians that Nobody is Talking About - CounterPunch.org
> 
> ...





oldiebutgoody said:


> Being Jewish myself it's a bit difficult to stop thinking about the subject.  Am about to take my daily constitutional and, as usual,  will wear my FREE PALESTINE wristband and Menorah medallion. Both very comforting to have.
> 
> As for sending the UN to stop anti black government violence, hey, not a bad idea since the USA does so overseas to stop what it considers unnecessary evils overseas. What's good for the goose being good for the gander.



I had you on ignore before and now I remember why.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I know you are Jewish @oldiebutgoody.   I can Always Tell.  Now, let's stop dissing @OneEyedDiva and go back to HER topic.  Thank you.




My posts were in reply to other people's inquiries.  Perhaps you may want to suggest to them to send PMs.  While you're at it, please consider asking others not to mention North Korea or other extraneous subjects.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I had you on ignore before and now I remember why.





Funny how I'm on your ignore list but you know  what I wrote.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 2, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I know you are Jewish @oldiebutgoody.   I can Always Tell.  Now, let's stop dissing @OneEyedDiva and go back to HER topic.  Thank you.


As we have determined and decided before threads often go off rail and anyone can talk about anything and no one should tell someone else what they can or can not talk about.  When someone is tired of the subject, they should move on.

I have been told these things several if not any times .  So just repeating what has been said to me.  I think @Pepper you have said similar things to me, but can’t be totally sure.  I forget so much so fast.    Anyway, I disagree.  Besides, it’s not a problem that will ever be solved, so blah, blah, blah, and so on.

However, the comment “I can always tell” is offensive.  You can always tell what?  You can see how that would be offensive.  Just a suggestion-I would take that out.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Funny how I'm on your ignore list but you know  what I wrote.


When someone is on an ignore list you have the choice to read their comments.  In case you did not know that, the ignore list is simply a tool to remind yourself not to response to certain people so you don’t get in the above back and forth kind of disagreements, IMO.


----------



## Shero (Sep 2, 2021)

Oh come on mes enfants, do not fight. We all have an opinion. agree or do not agree, that is your prerogative!


----------



## Pepper (Sep 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> My posts were in reply to other people's inquiries.  Perhaps you may want to suggest to them to send PMs.  While you're at it, please consider asking others not to mention North Korea or other extraneous subjects.


OK Lantzman


----------



## jerry old (Sep 2, 2021)

So let us look at the *role *of females in Muslin Countries.

You remember The cover of National Geographical: The Afghan Girl in 1985

Then the photographer's pictures of the same girl at around age thirty.

(Unfortunately I cannot post links or anything else with my colicky-knack PC.)

Go to The Afghan Girl
Then the same girl at age (approx) thirty


----------



## StarSong (Sep 2, 2021)

She looked a lot different at age 30 in 2002 than she did at 13 in 1985.  
Even not living a difficult life in a harsh climate, I also looked a lot different at 30 than at 13, too.  Didn't you?  
https://ricochet.com/1029839/whatever-happened-to-the-afghan-girl/


----------



## jerry old (Sep 2, 2021)

StarSong said:


> She looked a lot different at age 30 in 2002 than she did at 13 in 1985.
> Even not living a difficult life in a harsh climate, I also looked a lot different at 30 than at 13, too.  Didn't you?
> https://ricochet.com/1029839/whatever-happened-to-the-afghan-girl/


Watched the program of the photographer attempting to speak and take pictures of the Afgan Girl  on his second trip.
All   negoatations of  pictures of the Afgan Girl had to go through the husband and/or the husband's relatives.
I viewed the Afgan Girl as one trapped with no rights, privilages, or ability to have any goals except servitude.
She appeared cowed, distant and  frightened .
She had no ability to make decisions for herself, all things must be okay by the menfolk.


----------



## RadishRose (Sep 2, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Watched the program of the photographer attempting to speak and take pictures of the Afgan Girl  on his second trip.
> All   negoatations of  pictures of the Afgan Girl had to go through the husband and/or the husband's relatives.
> I viewed the Afgan Girl as one trapped with no rights, privilages, or ability to have any goals except servitude.
> She appeared cowed, distant and  frightened .
> She had no ability to make decisions for herself, all things must be okay by the menfolk.


I remember seeing that too!


----------



## RadishRose (Sep 2, 2021)

very interesting


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Shero said:


> Oh come on mes enfants, do not fight. We all have an opinion. agree or do not agree, that is your prerogative!




Who's fighting??


----------



## Shalimar (Sep 2, 2021)

My boss was born in Somalia. She is a brilliant woman who went to Cambridge, and if my memory serves, Johns Hopkins.  She is Muslim, married to a Moroccan Jew. Currently, they are fostering two Christian children who attend Sunday school regularly. Welcome to multicultural Canada. She lives a life of service, and I hold her in highest esteem.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Pepper said:


> OK Lantzman











Curly & the harem girl ~ one Jew to another.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Real Muslims believe that no  one race is better than another. We believe that all God's people (people of the books) have rights and should be treated equally and justly.




One of my very closest friends is a Shiia Muslim from Iran.  Truly one of the nicest guys I've ever known and he'd gladly give the shirt off his back to his own worst enemy if he ever had one.  He and I have had long discussions on the subjects we are discussing here and readily admits he learned quite a lot from me. 



OneEyedDiva said:


> Islamophobia has spread so widely because people take the worst of what they see *so* *called* Muslims do and judge all Muslims by those things. I'm *so glad* I don't judge all White people by the acts of the KKK and other racists. BTW, earlier this year domestic terrorists (among them White Supremacists) were named by U.S. intelligence as one of the biggest threats we face in this country. I'm also glad I don't judge all Christians by the bad apples in the bunch.




Prejudice is the result of ignorance and willful blindness. Part of that problem is the bombardment of lies made by those who have a pro war agenda such as that which we saw in the *Downing Street Memo* which I have previously quoted on these pages.  Whether anyone likes it or not, there simply was no justification for invading Iraq and killing off its leader Saddam Hussein.  We were told he was about to launch an invasion of the West.  Read that memo and you will readily learn that Bush lied.  He committed treason and is deserving of a Nuremberg tribunal for his crimes.  In fact Professor Ben Ferencz (world's # 1 authority on the subject) said Bush should be given a Nuremberg tribunal and subjected to the severest sentencing possible as were the Nazis during WW II.  Think of all that hate that is directed towards Muslim today. So much of it thanks to Bush who ironically called himself a Christian whose efforts in the Middle East were a "crusade".   To a Muslim the term crusade is the equivalent of what a pogrom is to an Ashkenazim Jew.  It is nothing less than hatred, war, and genocide.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Check out the extreme right wing religious viewpoint of the ruling Hindu party in India. They are very discriminatory towards Christians and Muslims. Imho, the fault lies with the people. Haters gonna hate.




I was going to say much the same but am mindful that some here do not appreciate the changing of the subject - at least when it's me who allegedly does so.  




But back to Islam,  whether anyone here loves them or hates them, the incontrovertible truth remains that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world: https://tinyurl.com/3wsz8apc

They must be doing something right.  Despite its alleged "sexism"  70% of the new converts are female. Despite all the hate spewed against it, Islam continues to grow   everywhere every year .  Despite all the claims that Muslims are the ones spreading war the truth is they are the ones enduring foreign invasion.  Despite all the pretensions that the USA and West did Afghans some great favor by invading and occupying their land, the vast majority of those people retained their loyalty to the Taliban.  And with the influx of thousands of Muslims into the West tens of thousands of more people will convert to their religion. Again, they must be doing something right.


----------



## jerry old (Sep 2, 2021)

oldie
You have an answer, an opinion why females would like to be Muslims?

There are not enough bad things that can be said about the nations former CEO, post 141


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## Pecos (Sep 2, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> My boss was born in Somalia. She is a brilliant woman who went to Cambridge, and if my memory serves, Johns Hopkins.  She is Muslim, married to a Moroccan Jew. Currently, they are fostering two Christian children who attend Sunday school regularly. Welcome to multicultural Canada. She lives a life of service, and I hold her in highest esteem.


Wow, that is a most impressive lady and husband. I find this to be a very uplifting and inspiring story. Thanks for posting we don’t get to read something like this very often.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 2, 2021)

jerry old said:


> You have an answer, an opinion why females would like to be Muslims?




I do not have an answer for why so many females convert to Islam. However, I knew one woman who did. She claimed that Islam *liberates *women more than any religion or ideology in existence.  All I remember from our conversation (which was a long time ago), she said she (a single woman) felt comfortable with it and gave her fulfillment that Christianity did not give her.

The following sources say a bit more:

Reasons Why Female Converts to Islam Have Increased in the West | islam.ru










"There are not enough bad things that can be said about the nations former CEO, post 141"

That is so true!


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## Alligatorob (Sep 3, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> convert to Islam


I had a Muslim friend who told me that you don't really "convert" to Islam but that all are Muslims from birth, some people just don't know it.  Kind of an interesting idea.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I had a Muslim friend who told me that you don't really "convert" to Islam but that all are Muslims from birth, some people just don't know it.  Kind of an interesting idea.


This is what the LDS believe as well.  They baptize the dead into the LDS faith.  I was so surprised to read that my aunt, a life long southern Baptist, was listed as LDS at their genealogy center in SLC.


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> This is what the LDS believe as well.  They baptize the dead into the LDS faith.  I was so surprised to read that my aunt, a life long southern Baptist, was listed as LDS at their genealogy center in SLC.


There's been some serious controversy over that practice.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I had a Muslim friend who told me that you don't really "convert" to Islam but that all are Muslims from birth, some people just don't know it.  Kind of an interesting idea.


Yes, they don't say they have converted. The term used is "reverted".

I once visited the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney on a cultural visit.  A nice young man named Ali explained the architecture and the rituals of daily and Friday prayers. Then he asked if we had any questions. I asked him to tell us about rites of passage and mentioned Christian baptism and Jewish bah mitzbar. He explained that the culture in Islam is rather different. When a baby is born the father whispered into the newborn's ear something like "remember that you are a Muslim". No ritual is necessary because, as Alligatorob has indicated, everyone is considered to be Muslim from birth.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 3, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They baptize the dead into the LDS faith.


That's the way I plan to join the church!

Did you know they baptized, after death, Vlad the Impaler and Adolf Hitler (https://gizmodo.com/the-time-mormons-baptized-adolf-hitler-and-vlad-the-imp-5962336 ) amongst other notables?  I think any Mormon can baptize for the dead, don't need official approval.

I live in Utah in a town that is 90+% Mormon, I am the rare exception.  I get on with them just fine and respect their religion, but am no Mormon.


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## Pink Biz (Sep 3, 2021)

StarSong said:


> There's been some serious controversy over that practice.


I never understood that controversy. They baptize everyone and anyone. Unless you are a Mormon, it's utterly meaningless.


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## RadishRose (Sep 3, 2021)

Pink Biz said:


> I never understood that controversy. They baptize everyone and anyone. Unless you are a Mormon, it's utterly meaningless.


I've never heard of it.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 3, 2021)

Pink Biz said:


> Unless you are a Mormon, it's utterly meaningless.


And hey for us non-Mormons if it turns our we are wrong it offers a second shot at a better place in heaven.  Seems like a win-win thing to me.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> That's the way I plan to join the church!
> 
> Did you know they baptized, after death, Vlad the Impaler and Adolf Hitler (https://gizmodo.com/the-time-mormons-baptized-adolf-hitler-and-vlad-the-imp-5962336 ) amongst other notables?  I think any Mormon can baptize for the dead, don't need official approval.
> 
> I live in Utah in a town that is 90+% Mormon, I am the rare exception.  I get on with them just fine and respect their religion, but am no Mormon.


Yes I know; I’ve lived in Utah for more than 30 years


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## StarSong (Sep 3, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> I've never heard of it.


There was quite a dustup when it came to light that they'd baptized Anne Frank posthumously (numerous times).  The practice of baptizing non-Mormon dead via proxy shows a stunning arrogance.


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## AnnieA (Sep 3, 2021)

StarSong said:


> .... The practice of baptizing non-Mormon dead via proxy shows a stunning arrogance.



It does but is meaningless if you aren't Mormon.  On the positive side, they are passionate about genealogy because of the practice and many online genealogical resources are Mormon owned.  Doubt we'd have anywhere near the online resources if they didn't have that practice.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 3, 2021)

StarSong said:


> The practice of baptizing non-Mormon dead via proxy shows a stunning arrogance.


I don't know, the way I look at it they are doing what they believe is best for us.  And as Anne says for non-Mormons it should be relatively meaningless.  I am sure it will happen to me (or after me anyway) and am not worried about it in the least.  Baptize away!

As Anne says a benefit is the genealogy work and there website (https://www.familysearch.org/en/ ).  Lots of interesting info available to all at no cost.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 3, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I don't know, the way I look at it they are doing what they believe is best for us.  And as Anne says for non-Mormons it should be relatively meaningless.  I am sure it will happen to me (or after me anyway) and am not worried about it in the least.  Baptize away!
> 
> As Anne says a benefit is the genealogy work and there website (https://www.familysearch.org/en/ ).  Lots of interesting info available to all at no cost.


Well, since there is only one God-all baptisms are done in HIS name, God”s name, so your actual religion and/or personal belief system DOES NOT MATTER.  GOD judges and decides everything.  It is what is is.


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## jerry old (Sep 3, 2021)

Before we can discuss any religions we need to pinpoint which sect or denomination were talking about.
The Muslims have two primary groups, but many splinter groups that are extremely dangerous to 
Western Civilization a*nd the Muslim Nations.*


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 3, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> My problem with the Muslim belief is simple - extreme abuse of females as in 'honor' killings and female genital mutilation.


Women have been abused in so many forms across so many countries and religions that your "reason" for how you feel about Muslims is a weak one. I read about many Christian ministers who sexually abused women. One in particular used to go to China, convince young girls' (usually early teens from poor families) parents that he could provide a better life in America. He and his wife then kept the girls as sex slaves. They kept one at a time. Finally a 15 year old escaped and went to the authorities. The minister and his wife were arrested. I don't recall seeing any more about how the case played out. Common sense would dictate that we realize there are evil people in the world who go against morals and the rules all the time. The Quran gave women certain rights over 1,400 years ago that women did not get in this country until the 20th century. Muslim men who go against those rights fall out of Allah's favor.

@feywon is right. Muslims follow the Quran and the Hadith (teachings) of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). In one of his last sermons he taught that the best of men were those who were good to their wives. He said (sic) that it's best to concentrate on a wife's good traits and overlook the undesirable ones. He also taught that men who had sex with their wives then bragged about it to other men were the lowest. Muslim men are instructed to help their wives with household chores, stay involved with raising the children and consult their wives before making decisions on important issues. I've also read that Muslim men should actually ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed. Eg: Make sure she's satisfied... "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" sex is not acceptable.

Genital mutilation is not only performed by Muslims. This is an excerpt from Wikipedia's page on the practice. In it genital mutilation of Christian girls in also mentioned.
_"UNICEF estimated, in 2016, that 200 million women in 30 countries—Indonesia, Iraqi Kurdistan, Yemen, and 27 African countries—had been subjected to one or more types of FGM."
"There is no mention of FGM in the Bible.[v] Christian missionaries in Africa were among the first to object to FGM,[138] but Christian communities in Africa do practise it. In 2013 UNICEF identified 19 African countries in which at least 10 percent of Christian women and girls aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM;[w] in Niger, 55 percent of Christian women and girls had experienced it, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts.[140] The only Jewish group known to have practised it is the Beta Israel of Ethiopia. Judaism requires male circumcision but does not allow FGM.[141] FGM is also practised by animist groups, particularly in Guinea and Mali.[131]"_


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 3, 2021)

Don't want to write too much about my experience with LDS as Pepper might get mad at me for changing the subject while it's ok for all else.  

I've been approached by young guys on bus stops seeking converts but they quickly run away from me when I challenged them to point to certain geographical spots mention in their Book of Mormon.  Such spots have never been located on a map. Why? Because they do not exist. They are about as real as Bush's WMD and the little Green Men who are supposedly in the planet Mars.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 3, 2021)

Muslims believe belly dancing is very wholesome pro family entertainment  and is performed at weddings:


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## win231 (Sep 3, 2021)

_"Real Muslims?" _ I didn't know there were fake Muslims.


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## Shero (Sep 3, 2021)

StarSong said:


> There was quite a dustup when it came to light that they'd baptized Anne Frank posthumously (numerous times).  The practice of baptizing non-Mormon dead via proxy shows a stunning arrogance.


But Anne Frank was Jewish, why would they do that?


----------



## win231 (Sep 3, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Muslims believe belly dancing is very wholesome pro family entertainment  and is performed at weddings:


I didn't realize how wholesome belly dancing was until I saw her.
Very wholesome, indeed.  And in all the right places.


----------



## CAKCy (Sep 3, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I was raised Christian before I accepted Islam at age 45



A personal question, if I may. I won't be offended if you choose not to reply and I apologize if the question was asked before and I missed the reply:

What was that made you accept Islam after being Christian for 45 years?


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 3, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Women have been abused in so many forms across so many countries and religions that your "reason" for how you feel about Muslims is a weak one. I read about many Christian ministers who sexually abused women. One in particular used to go to China, convince a young girls (usually early teens from poor families) that he could provide a better life in America. He and his wife then kept the girls as sex slaves. They kept one at a time. Finally a 15 year old finally escaped and went to the authorities. The minister and his wife were arrested. I don't recall seeing any more about how the case played out. Common sense would dictate that we realize there are evil people in the world who go against morals and the rules all the time. The Quran gave women certain rights over 1,400 years ago that women did not get in this country until the 20th century. Muslim men who go against those rights fall out of Allah's favor.
> 
> @feywon is right. Muslims follow the Quran and the Hadith (teachings) of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). In one of his last sermons he taught that the best of men were those who were good to their wives. He said (sic) that it's best to concentrate on a wife's good traits and overlook the undesirable ones. He also taught that men who had sex with their wives then bragged about it to other men were the lowest. Muslim men are instructed to help their wives with household chores, stay involved with raising the children and consult their wives before making decisions on important issues. I've also read that Muslim men should actually ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed. Eg: Make sure she's satisfied... "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" sex is not acceptable.
> 
> ...


Quoted for truth


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 3, 2021)

What do real Muslims believe in?  Obeying the divine law of protecting your brothers such as when Albanians saved the lives of Jews during World War II:

Albanian muslims protected jews in ww ii - Bing


Muslims were at least 70% of the population in that country in those days.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> But Anne Frank was Jewish, why would they do that?


Because that’s what they do is the simplest answer, they covert everyone to the “true“ faith.  I guess they don’t want to be alone on heaven


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 4, 2021)

During World War II the fascists invaded and occupied Northern Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt) ~ lands which historically  had significant  Jewish populations. Yet, there were no massive removals or extermination of Jews unlike Europe.  Have you ever wondered why?  Well, consider the fact that the majority populations in those countries were Muslim who harbored certain beliefs such as protecting your brothers. That may possibly provide an answer.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 4, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> During World War II the fascists invaded and occupied Northern Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt) ~ lands which historically  had significant  Jewish populations. Yet, there were no massive removals or extermination of Jews unlike Europe.  Have you ever wondered why?  Well, consider the fact that the majority populations in those countries were Muslim who harbored certain beliefs such as protecting your brothers. That may possibly provide an answer.


Interesting, do you know if it is true?  I don't think Rommel or the Italians bought into the Nazi atrocities so much.  

Do you know how those Jewish populations have faired since the war?


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 4, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Interesting, do you know if it is true?  I don't think Rommel or the Italians bought into the Nazi atrocities so much.
> 
> Do you know how those Jewish populations have faired since the war?




Many left, not because of any post war persecution but because they were offered citizenship,  free land,  subsidies, and other forms of socialist reliefs  by the Israeli government.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 4, 2021)

Lara said:


> Allah and God are not really the same.


Lara...I beg to differ. Jesus is not God. Consider the following: A *Christian* minister did a sermon 20 years or more ago that really struck me.  The title of the sermon was "Is Jesus The Son of God?" In it he relayed the story of Jesus being called before a council head who was determined to get something he could use to persecute Jesus with. So he asked Jesus if (sic) he wanted people to worship him. He asked the question three times. Each time Jesus responded with wording like No. I am not worthy of worship. Did Jesus tell his followers to worship him or worship *as he worshipped*? Did Jesus worship himself? I think not. The minister also explained that due to the difference in how language was expressed back then and now, the word was not Son but Sun, as in "the light" or lighting the way.


Lara said:


> God and Jesus Christ are One, with whom one can develop a relationship with Christ as one's Savior from sin.
> Jesus Christ is significant in the Christian profile.
> I grew up in the church as I mentioned before. Went to Sunday school, the sat through Sunday services every Sunday. Our woship was not focused on Jesus but on God Almighty, the creator.  In fact, I didn't find out that some Christians (many I guess) focus their worship on Jesus until my BFF and I were talking religion one evening (I was still Christian then) and she mentioned it. I was very surprised! Another thing I want to address about Jesus. The pictures and likenesses of Jesus hanging in most churches is inaccurate. Revelations describes Jesus thusly:


_"In Revelation 1:14-15 we are given a description of Jesus as He looked to the writer in His vision. It reads, "The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters." This passage describes the resurrected Jesus with head and hair that are white or perhaps glowing, along with eyes like fire. His bronze feet and loud voice complete the picture of a majestic, powerful Jesus who has conquered death and the grave."_

Furthermore religious scholars have concluded that Jesus was not White and certainly didn't have long, straight hair as depicted in many churches. Here is an article in which The Archbishop of Cantebury weighs in on the misconception.
https://premierchristian.news/en/ne...t-s-important-we-remember-jesus-was-not-white
And in the video below, the minister presents what he says is what Jesus scholars came up with about Jesus' likely appearance. He starts out joking around but gets to it around 4:02. His presentation supports the view the archbishop presented. What else in Christianity has been misrepresented all these centuries?







Lara said:


> Allah is apart from Christ. Muslims don't believe Christ as Savior nor God. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there is no personal relationship between Muslims and Allah. Christ is the bridge between Christians and God for developing a personal relationship.


Allah means God, not Jesus. Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet and he is revered along with other great Prophets of the Bible. In fact, he is referred to in the Quran as The Messiah. Muslims have a saying. "There are no intercessors" between us and God....no go betweens. Also "Worship the *Creator,* not the *creation*" Another question: If you believe that God created the heavens and earth...how could he be a man who was born of woman after creation? Muslims literally pray directly to God, the Creator. The most devout Muslims pray 5, maybe 6 times a day. 5 prayers are obligatory, the 6th is not. So we do indeed have a very personal relationship with *God*. I admit I do not make my 5 prayers but I do have a very personal relationship with Him. Muslims give thanks to God for many little things people may go about their day taking for granted.


Lara said:


> Fact: There are good and bad people in all groups, everywhere, in every era of time since Satan entered the Garden of Eden.
> So blame and cultural stereotyping is just ignorant. As comedian Bob Newhart (age 91) once said, "Stop it. Just stop it."
> This is one thing you and I certainly agree on!
> 
> ...


I believe people who observe and practice their religions have things they question and maybe aren't comfortable with. I know I did when I was Christian and do now. We especially need to remember these books and practices were written way before our time and it was a different world back then. One last point about Jesus. He said another Prophet would come after him.
_"Jesus, according to the Gospel of John, promised that another prophet would come after him who would speak the words God gave him to speak, and fully make known God’s truth. I, and muslims in general, recognize the fulfillment of this promise in Muhammad."

And re: your reply to @Warrigal _"I think what Diva meant by "real Muslims" is that the true followers of Muslim, that she knows, are peaceful and not terrorists." *Exactly! *Thank you.* *

`


----------



## Shero (Sep 4, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Lara...I beg to differ. Jesus is not God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry Ms Diva, you cannot in my humble opinion "beg to differ"with Lara's  belief. Millions of Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. I do not think it is correct for me to chastise them for their beliefs, same as I do not believe everythng I read about Mohammed and Islam.No one, again in my humble opinion has the right answer.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 4, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> @OneEyedDiva ,
> 
> I'm curious to what attracted you to Islam from Christianity?   Was it just a "better fit"?   If you already have addressed this somewhere and care to redirect me I'd appreciate that.  If you don't care to answer or simply can't answer it in a few sentences, that's understandable.
> 
> Interesting to read the thread, thank you.


I'm happy to answer Oris. I wouldn't be surprised if others want to know the answer.  Long story short, after attending Sunday school and church services every Sunday since I was a child (of course no Sunday school after adulthood), I became disenchanted with what I was hearing and felt I wan't learning much. The services even seemed redundant to me. I met a Muslim man (who eventually became my husband) who had a store in town and was only one of two Muslims I knew of. He eventually invited me and my son (who had already started studying Islam) to go to an Islamic lecture at Rutgers University. I was impressed with what I heard and the whole vibe. I felt it was really a learning experience. I purchased a couple of Islamic books from a vendor there. I went with this man and two of his workers to another lecture and enjoyed that as well.

Not long after, it was clear that we were interested in one another. In fact a few years before that, a mutual friend tried his best to get us together. This Muslim man said he would prefer to have a Muslim wife and I told him I wouldn't make such a commitment (to become Muslim) until I felt I was ready. It took me a while to accept his proposal as well. Truthfully, I *never* thought I'd marry again. I had already stopped eating pork, I didn't drink alcohol anymore (which I only did socially) and I never smoked. He couldn't believe it...he really thought I was putting him on. Besides that Muslims are charitable people and I am that as well. I liked the peacefulness I felt in the environment with Muslims. I liked the way women were showed respect amongst the men and I always felt safe around Muslims. I read the books, including parts of the Quran he had given me. I actually felt I was ready about three years later when I was sitting at my Uncle's funeral in Baltimore and the words the minister was saying bordered on sounding ridiculous to me. I left there knowing *in my heart *I was ready to accept Islam. A little while afterward, we got married and I took my Shahada (declaration of faith) on the same day.


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## CAKCy (Sep 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> I am sorry Ms Diva, you cannot in my humble opinion "beg to differ"with Lara's  belief. Millions of Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. I do not think it is correct for me to chastise them for their beliefs, same as I do not believe everythng I read about Mohammed and Islam.No one, again in my humble opinion has the right answer.



I'm afraid I will disagree with your statement. The fact that millions of Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God does not mean that this is so. Consider that millions of Jews consider Jesus to be a "false prophet".


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## Shero (Sep 4, 2021)

CAKCy said:


> I'm afraid I will disagree with your statement. The fact that millions of Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God does not mean that this is so. Consider that millions of Jews consider Jesus to be a "false prophet".


I did not say "it is so". I am trying to make the point that a belief is something so personal, no one has the right to say it is not so for that person. I do not follow any religion although brought up in the Christian faith. but my belief in God is  strong and unwavering. End of story.


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## Shalimar (Sep 4, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Muslims believe belly dancing is very wholesome pro family entertainment  and is performed at weddings:


I, too, believe it to be wholesome. I began belly dancing at fifteen, danced in clubs to help pay for university. I have also danced for weddings, and other special events. Taught it also. I still dance, to maintain fitness, and to celebrate my femininity.


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## CAKCy (Sep 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> I did not say "it is so". I am trying to make the point that a belief is something so personal, no one has the right to say it is not so for that person. I do not follow any religion although brought up in the Christian faith. but my belief in God is  strong and unwavering. End of story.



You are right, of course about personal beliefs. But when these beliefs are discussed in public one has the right to disagree with them, no?


----------



## Oris Borloff (Sep 4, 2021)

@OneEyedDiva

Thank you for taking time to answer.


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## Shero (Sep 4, 2021)

CAKCy said:


> You are right, of course about personal beliefs. But when these beliefs are discussed in public one has the right to disagree with them, no?


No, I do not think when beliefs are discussed in public one has the right to disagree, you can offer your opinion without disagreeing.

Personally, I like to hear what other people believe. Everyone has the right to think freely, and to entertain ideas based on conscientious or religious or other beliefs. If those beliefs do not harm anyone, then I see no problem.


----------



## CAKCy (Sep 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> No, I do not think when beliefs are discussed in public one has the right to disagree, you can offer your opinion without disagreeing.
> 
> Personally, I like to hear what other people believe. Everyone has the right to think freely, and to entertain ideas based on conscientious or religious or other beliefs. If those beliefs do not harm anyone, then I see no problem.



If you state your belief and I state mine and they differ isn't that an implied disagreement?

I like to hear what other people believe too. I choose to remain silent if I don't wish to disagree with them. If I state my opinion/belief and that happens to be different than theirs then it's clear that we disagree. Disagreement is still allowed without causing any harm or problem.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 4, 2021)

Years ago I read a book about Andaluçia under Morisco (Moorish rule).  Sorry, cannot remember the writers name or the book's title. But I do remember that it was an interesting time and society. 

Spain was always known for its great intellectuals and wise philosophers.  Under the ancient Roman empire, Seneca was thought to be its most learned man, as an example. After Europe was conquered by so called  "barbarians" it slept into decay leading to the *Dark   Ages*. But Andaluçia thrived.  Unlike Christian Europe, intellectual centers flourished. Medicine was advanced beyond that of the rest of the continent.  Architecture was so great that Moorish architecture is still used to this day. In Europe there was a legend where a poor scholar pawned his cloak in order to buy a book he needed for his studies because tuition took up all his money.  By contrast, a  Muslim patron paid one dinar a month to every scholar who studied the Koran.  Christians charged tuition while Muslims PAID their students! When have you seen that anywhere else?  The Moors made all kinds of advancements in other matters such as irrigation, hygiene, culinary arts, maritime, etc.



article which neatly analyzes what I wrote above: THE EXTRAORDINARY INFLUENCE OF THE MOORS ON SPAIN | Adelaide Literary Magazine (adelaidemagazine.org)




So let's summarize in answer to the question:  what do real Muslims believe =


✔  protecting one's brethren (they protected Jews in Spain, in Albania, and in Africa)

✔  advancing medicine & hygiene & architecture

✔  promoting commerce by improving the maritime (the Dhow was superior to Western vessels)

✔  while women did not have property rights in Europe until the 1800s, the *Koran* gave them property rights Sura 4, Line 36 (Rodwell translation)

✔  education centers PAID their students rather than charge tuition

✔  while European "barbarians" destroyed libraries and books in Dark Ages, libraries   and centers of scholarship thrived in al-Andaluç

✔  while Westerners invaded and colonized Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and other Muslim lands in the past 200 years, those lands never launched retaliatory invasions of the West ~ I guess that means they took Jesus's teaching of turning the other cheek very seriously which, evidently, Christians never did.

✔  and they believe belly dancing is wholesome family entertainment



Any other ideas on what real Muslims believe?


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 4, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> I, too, believe it to be wholesome. I began belly dancing at fifteen, danced in clubs to help pay for university. I have also danced for weddings, and other special events. Taught it also. I still dance, to maintain fitness, and to celebrate my femininity.





Please consider gracing us with photos of you performing.


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## Mr. Ed (Sep 5, 2021)

I believe in anything, I believe in everything and I believe in nothing at all when opportunity presents itself.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 6, 2021)

Shero said:


> I am sorry Ms Diva, you cannot in my humble opinion "beg to differ"with Lara's  belief. Millions of Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. I do not think it is correct for me to chastise them for their beliefs, same as I do not believe everythng I read about Mohammed and Islam.No one, again in my humble opinion has the right answer.


@Shero, I am confused, or you are confused or maybe it’s just me.  Do you believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God?  Jesus is the Son if God in my belief system.  He is not God.  In addition, millions of people believe that Jesus is NOT the son of God.  Certainly the Jewish people do not believe that Jesus is the son.

Also, just saying, anyone can disagree with anyone else.  I don’t believe anyone was chastising anyone else-we just give our own opinions on subjects.  I also think at one point that Jesus was asked by someone,  my memory, if he was the son of God and his response was, I think, it is you that say I am, or something like that.

I also am open to the fact that Mohammed might be the promised prophet or not.  But it’s been a long time since we have had a prophet, so like many if the Jewish people think, we are still waiting for one to appear.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 6, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Years ago I read a book about Andaluçia under Morisco (Moorish rule).  Sorry, cannot remember the writers name or the book's title. But I do remember that it was an interesting time and society.
> 
> Spain was always known for its great intellectuals and wise philosophers.  Under the ancient Roman empire, Seneca was thought to be its most learned man, as an example. After Europe was conquered by so called  "barbarians" it slept into decay leading to the *Dark   Ages*. But Andaluçia thrived.  Unlike Christian Europe, intellectual centers flourished. Medicine was advanced beyond that of the rest of the continent.  Architecture was so great that Moorish architecture is still used to this day. In Europe there was a legend where a poor scholar pawned his cloak in order to buy a book he needed for his studies because tuition took up all his money.  By contrast, a  Muslim patron paid one dinar a month to every scholar who studied the Koran.  Christians charged tuition while Muslims PAID their students! When have you seen that anywhere else?  The Moors made all kinds of advancements in other matters such as irrigation, hygiene, culinary arts, maritime, etc.
> 
> ...


I wish I had gotten paid for going to Sunday school


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 6, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I believe in anything, I believe in everything and I believe in nothing at all when opportunity presents itself.




I   might have been inclined to chime in on that part of the conversation but Pepper might get mad at me for changing the subject.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 6, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I wish I had gotten paid for going to Sunday school





The theocratic government of Saudi Arabia uses its financial resources to pay students educational and living costs overseas thereby proving that Muslims still believe in paying for the education of their youth:


_Saudi Arabia is among the 10 biggest sending countries of international degree-seeking students worldwide. Fully 5 percent of all Saudi tertiary students were studying abroad in 2017—a high outbound student mobility ratio by global standards sustained by extensive government funding. The Saudi government has long used its petrol dollars to send students overseas on scholarship programs in order to bridge capacity shortages at home and develop the KSA’s human capital base._


Education in Saudi Arabia (wes.org)


----------



## Shero (Sep 6, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> @Shero, I am confused, or you are confused or maybe it’s just me.  Do you believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God?  Jesus is the Son if God in my belief system.  He is not God.  In addition, millions of people believe that Jesus is NOT the son of God.  Certainly the Jewish people do not believe that Jesus is the son.
> 
> Also, just saying, anyone can disagree with anyone else.  I don’t believe anyone was chastising anyone else-we just give our own opinions on subjects.  I also think at one point that Jesus was asked by someone,  my memory, if he was the son of God and his response was, I think, it is you that say I am, or something like that.
> 
> I also am open to the fact that Mohammed might be the promised prophet or not.  But it’s been a long time since we have had a prophet, so like many if the Jewish people think, we are still waiting for one to appear.




No (contrary to my Christian upbringing) I do not believe Jesus is God. I do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. What I do believe is no one has the right to tell anyone what to believe and if you read my post again you will see, I am referring only to myself when the word “chastise” is used.

In addition, I do not believe any Messiah is coming. I do not believe Mohammed is the last prophet on earth. I believe only in the Creator, I call God. Very simple. When anyone brings me cold hard facts, then I will give them my time.

La fin!


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 8, 2021)

I have been very busy since I started this so I still have not had the chance to read through the entire thread and reply to everyone I'd like to reply to. Hopefully I'll be able to do so by the weekend. But in the meantime I want to thank everyone for participating in the discussion, especially those of you who understand where I'm coming and indicated that in your replies.


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## Warrigal (Sep 8, 2021)

You have a most generous heart, Diva. 
You have my respect and my


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 10, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> This might be a good starting point to research - *https://www.uri.org/kids/world-religions/muslim-beliefs*


This is an excellent, easy to understand explanation of what Islam means and what it means to be Muslim for those who are confused, believe propaganda, etc. Thank you so much for posting it


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 10, 2021)

charry said:


> They believe in the Koran , that there’s only one god.....and Mohammed is there only disciple.....


Not quite true Charry. Please, please, please read this which @Chris P Bacon  previously posted. It gives a clear, concise explanation for what Islam is (it says for kids but it helps grown ups understand better too). @oldman This should help you with your query. And what I meant by "real Muslim" are people who really do practice Islam to the best of their ability and not use it to justify doing harm to others. Yes, there are different sects all of whom are still considered Muslims. Again, I'm not talking about extremists who are doing terrible things in the name of Islam.
Oldman, it's "funny" you mentioned how you felt when you saw mid-easterners on a plane. In the video I posted in my reply to Lara, the minister who is talking about Jesus not being white, shows a picture of what Jesus scholars concluded Jesus most probably looked like. He commented that most people likely wouldn't want to sit next to a person who looked like that.

@Shalimar I love your very true post about extremists in other religions besides Islam. People have selective memories when they decide they want to discriminate against one group of people, be it race, ****** identity or religious affiliation.

@JimBob1952 I'm no historian (in fact hated history) but it is my understanding that this goes back way farther than 25 years and that Israel stole land that rightfully belonged to Palestine, thereby displacing many Palestinians. We're talking about families with children.
@Lara @Shero @Pecos
@senior chef


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 10, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I think its both.  Natural for us to worry about people who look a bit like the people who tend to hijack planes.  I might do the same.  Its just human nature.
> 
> However we need to understand rationally that such an event is extremely unlikely, probably less likely than dying in a car wreck on the way to the airport.  And be careful not to let  our instinctive reactions lead us to do irrational things, like discriminate against someone.  Our instincts evolved in a very different world.  A place where anyone we did not know was a threat and needed to be avoided or even killed.  Overcoming instincts like that is what allowed for development of civilization.  Shouldn't reverse that process!


Unfortunately the process of being rational and civilized was reversed a long time ago and things seem to be going backward. How many times have we heard that a Black man was arrested, beaten, even killed because he looked like he presented a threat? How many Black men,  women and children have been killed by White supremacists? More than I care to count!! How many people have been beaten and killed because they were gay or trans? And of course, more recently beaten badly because they are Asian and "that fool" kept calling it "the Asian flu". Don't get me wrong. I know there are still a whole lot of good people in this world. Thank God for that!!


----------



## senior chef (Sep 10, 2021)

What do "real" Muslims believe ? I have no idea , BUT I feel sure that the Taliban believes they are "real" Muslims.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 10, 2021)

@Alligatorob  You said _"there have been times in history that the Muslims have offered sanctuary to the Jews, protecting them from Christians." _I want to add to this. My husband once told me we have to "watch out for the Jews" He didn't mean watch out as in they are gonna get you...he meant we are supposed to protect them if necessary and help them when possible. This reminds me of a story I read a few years back. A Jewish cemetery had been badly vandalized. A group of Muslims pitched in and helped the Jewish people clean it up. This is not an isolated incident of Muslims and Jewish people working together for a common cause.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 16, 2021)

Shero said:


> Oh come on mes enfants, do not fight. We all have an opinion. agree or do not agree, that is your prerogative!


Yet I saw in a reply to your comment in this thread (I haven't read through the entire thread yet). You wrote I didn't have the right to "beg to differ" with @Lara . What's odd about that is that I disagreed as a current Muslim and a *former Christian* who got certain knowledge from Christian ministers! In fact, Lara mis-stated (thereby misrepresented) Muslim's relationship with God and who God is. I explained that in my reply to her if you care to read it.

Despite my disagreeing with *some of* what you both replied, I get the sense that you are both very nice people. Can we agree on that?


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Yet I saw in a reply to your reply in this thread. You wrote I didn't have the right to "beg to differ" with @Lara . What's odd about that is that I disagreed as a current Muslim and a *former Christian* who got certain knowledge from Christian ministers! In fact, Lara mis-stated (thereby misrepresented) the Islamic faith.
> 
> Despite my disagreeing with what she replied and what you've replied, I get the sense that you are both very nice people. Can we agree on that?



I am glad you think I am "nice" ma cherie. I think I am also . If I have offended you or Lara or anyone else it is not my intention.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> How many Black men, women and children have been killed by White supremacists?


Too many, one would be too many and I know its more than that...

I have to admit to being instinctively prejudiced, I just don't feel as comfortable around strangers who don't look like me.  I wish that were not true, but I have to admit that it is.  It doesn't last long once I meet a person, and I work to try and keep it from letting me take irrational actions.  I remember once walking down a dark street in Washington DC and noticing two young black me "following" me.  I got pretty nervous and ducked into the first open door I could find.  As they walked by I could see they were harmless, just normal people.  I know that had they been white I would not have reacted that way.  That was 30 years ago and I still feel a bit guilty about it.  Overcoming prejudice can be hard, but admitting to it is a good first step.  I suspect many of us harbor some prejudices, often deeply hidden and instinctive.


----------



## Lara (Sep 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Yet I saw in a reply to your comment in this thread (I haven't read through the entire thread yet). You wrote *I didn't have the right to "beg to differ" with Lara . *What's odd about that is that I disagreed as a current Muslim and a *former Christian* who got certain knowledge from Christian ministers! In fact, Lara mis-stated (thereby misrepresented) Muslim's relationship with God and who God is. I explained that in my reply to her if you care to read it.
> 
> Despite my disagreeing with *some of* what you both replied, I get the sense that you are both very nice people. Can we agree on that?


What? What'd I do now? I haven't been in this thread for weeks but...

if anyone wants to differ with me then please feel free to differ away. I promise not to bite.
And yes, I agree, the 3 of us "are all nice people"

Diva, I probably read your post, found it interesting, and appreciated it but I've learned over time, for myself, to use fewer words and to "know when to fold 'em, when to walk away, when to run" I left this thread weeks ago because I probably felt I'd said all I could say.

I've learned not to belabor my views regarding different religions. I don't really want to have the last word. I'm happy to come and go more quickly these days.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Too many, one would be too many and I know its more than that...
> 
> I have to admit to being instinctively prejudiced, I just don't feel as comfortable around strangers who don't look like me.  I wish that were not true, but I have to admit that it is.  It doesn't last long once I meet a person, and I work to try and keep it from letting me take irrational actions.  I remember once walking down a dark street in Washington DC and noticing two young black me "following" me.  I got pretty nervous and ducked into the first open door I could find.  As they walked by I could see they were harmless, just normal people.  I know that had they been white I would not have reacted that way.  That was 30 years ago and I still feel a bit guilty about it.  Overcoming prejudice can be hard, but admitting to it is a good first step.  I suspect many of us harbor some prejudices, often deeply hidden and instinctive.


Ture story.  I once heard the Rev Jessie Jackson tell about a time he was walking down the street, at night,  in Washington D.C. He felt a presence behind him and became nervous. He crossed the street and glanced back. He said, "I was so relieved to see that it was only 2 white men".  if anyone else had said that, there would have been hysterical screams of racism.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> @Alligatorob  You said _"there have been times in history that the Muslims have offered sanctuary to the Jews, protecting them from Christians." _I want to add to this. My husband once told me we have to "watch out for the Jews" He didn't mean watch out as in they are gonna get you...he meant we are supposed to protect them if necessary and help them when possible. This reminds me of a story I read a few years back. A Jewish cemetery had been badly vandalized. A group of Muslims pitched in and helped the Jewish people clean it up. This is not an isolated incident of Muslims and Jewish people working together for a common cause.


For every time a Muslim goes of out of the way to help a Jew, there are 10 times when a Muslim has murdered a Jew. Remember the Leon Klinghoffer incident on the cruise ship Achille Lauro where Muslims took an old Jewish man in a wheel chair and pushed him overboard into the sea ?
Who else remembers the Munich Olympics, 1972 ?
Long, long before Israel even became a state, Muslims have been murdering Jews in the country called Palestine.


----------



## mrstime (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Am I allowed to quote verses from the Quran ? If so, I will not say a word except for the Quran quotes


I figure if someone actually reads the Koran they will understand exactly. Also try reading the parts that pertain to women!


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> For every time a Muslim goes of out of the way to help a Jew, there are 10 times when a Muslim has murdered a Jew


Do you have any actual statistics to back this up?  I hope it is not true.

See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule in part:

_Jews under Islamic rule were given the status of dhimmi, along with certain other pre-Islamic religious groups. Though second-class citizens, these non-Muslim groups were nevertheless accorded certain rights and protections as "people of the book". During waves of persecution in Medieval Europe, many Jews found refuge in Muslim lands. For instance, Jews from the Iberian peninsula were invited to settle in various parts of the Ottoman Empire during the Spanish inquisition, where they would often form a prosperous model minority of merchants acting as intermediaries for their Muslim rulers._


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## Chris P Bacon (Sep 16, 2021)

The Spanish Inquisition left Muslims alone, Jews too.
I've been terrorized by more so called Christians than 
I ever have by Muslims and Jewish people combined.
And more white men have betrayed me than any other
type of person, ever! Still, better is a nicer feeling than bitter.
Sometimes I think I know how indigenous people must feel
but I'm sure that's impossible. White men though, bad news.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I once heard the Rev Jessie Jackson tell about a time he was walking down the street, at night, in Washington D.C. He felt a presence behind him and became nervous. He crossed the street and glanced back. He said, "I was so relieved to see that it was only 2 white men".


Interesting story, if true.  I did some research and it does appear true, see https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-12-03-1993337169-story.html

Lots of prejudices out there I guess...


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

The main thing to remember about Christians, Jews and Muslims is that the Christian church, long ago, stopped preaching hatred toward Jews, while the Muslim religion continues to not only preach hatred about Jews, they actively advocate killing Jews at every opportunity. 

As far as I can tell, Muslims have not changed one tiny bit since the writing of the Quran.

Direct quote from the Quran (4: 89)
"They wish you would believe, as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them any allies until they immigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them where ever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper".

The above is certain not the only passage about killing Jews written in the Quran. There are dozens and dozens more.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

mrstime said:


> I figure if someone actually reads the Koran they will understand exactly. Also try reading the parts that pertain to women!


Indeed !  I see absolutely no hope that Muslims will ever treat women as real human beings with feelings, needs and rights. The Quran is something straight out of the stone age.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 16, 2021)

Neither the "Christian church" nor the "Muslim religion" are monolithic, you can find evil people using their religion for support in either.  The Klan is supposed to be a Christian based organization and they certainly preach hatred of Jews, even today.

I know less about Muslims, but do have some personal experiences.  I spent time in Saudi Arabia a few years back and ran into Jews working there.  The local Saudis, practicing Muslims, worked with them and knew they were Jews and could care less.  They got on fine, even joked about it.  This despite Saudi's reputation as being very anti-Semitic.


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I see absolutely no hope that Muslims will ever treat women as real human beings with feelings, needs and rights


Again there is a lot of variation in  how Muslims treat women.  And I would hope things are improving, however the situation in many Muslim countries is not good for women.  I have hope, but also have to recognize reality.  See the attached for a good scientifically based study of the problem.


----------



## Lara (Sep 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Neither the "Christian church" nor the "Muslim religion" are monolithic, you can find evil people using their religion for support in either.  The Klan is supposed to be a Christian based organization and they certainly preach hatred of Jews, even today.


Just because the Klan calls themselves Christian, certainly doesn't make them Christian. Christ preached Love (1 Corinthians 13). The Klan preaches hatred. If one doesn't believe and practice Christ's teachings then they aren't Christian. Christians may sin via temptation but they don't make a habit of sinning the same sin over and over aka repent. So don't make the mistake of believing what the Klan says


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Too many, one would be too many and I know its more than that...
> 
> I have to admit to being instinctively prejudiced, I just don't feel as comfortable around strangers who don't look like me.  I wish that were not true, but I have to admit that it is.  It doesn't last long once I meet a person, and I work to try and keep it from letting me take irrational actions.  I remember once walking down a dark street in Washington DC and noticing two young black me "following" me.  I got pretty nervous and ducked into the first open door I could find.  As they walked by I could see they were harmless, just normal people.  I know that had they been white I would not have reacted that way.  That was 30 years ago and I still feel a bit guilty about it.  Overcoming prejudice can be hard, but admitting to it is a good first step.  I suspect many of us harbor some prejudices, often deeply hidden and instinctive.


What’s funny is you are probably more in danger from white teenagers than black, but if males, of any color or age, seem to be “following me”, I get nervous.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Again there is a lot of variation in  how Muslims treat women.  And I would hope things are improving, however the situation in many Muslim countries is not good for women.  I have hope, but also have to recognize reality.  See the attached for a good scientifically based study of the problem.


I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with men-thus the ME TOO movement.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

Lara said:


> What? What'd I do now? I haven't been in this thread for weeks but...
> 
> if anyone wants to differ with me then please feel free to differ away. I promise not to bite.
> And yes, I agree, the 3 of us "are all nice people"
> ...


Ok, I will have the last word


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

Lara said:


> Just because the Klan calls themselves Christian, certainly doesn't make them Christian. Christ preached Love (1 Corinthians 13). The Klan preaches hatred. If one doesn't believe and practice Christ's teachings then they aren't Christian. Christians may sin via temptation but they don't make a habit of sinning the same sin over and over. They also repent. So don't make the mistake of believing what the Klan says


Many repent on their deaths beds  and, while they are sincere, they are judged on the sum total of their life and words. God judges all.


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> The main thing to remember about Christians, Jews and Muslims is that the Christian church, long ago, stopped preaching hatred toward Jews, while the Muslim religion continues to not only preach hatred about Jews, they actively advocate killing Jews at every opportunity.
> 
> As far as I can tell, Muslims have not changed one tiny bit since the writing of the Quran.
> 
> ...



I say again, unless you know the meaning of the verses in the Quran, do NOT make reference. You cannot take bits out to suit your one sided way of thinking!

Here, you are talking about the Battle of Uhud ( but you do not know that, because you did not research!) Many spies who were* Jewish* joined the Muslim army, they converted so as to get information etc. When the Muslims lost the battle of Uhud, decisions were made on how to deal with them.

That is what this verse is about. It is about a SPECIFIC incident! If you are going to quote historical events, do the research, very important!


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

Shero said:


> I say again, unless you know the meaning of the verses in the Quran, do NOT make reference. You cannot take bits out to suit your one sided way of thinking!
> 
> Here, you are talking about the Battle of Uhud ( but you do not know that, because you did not research!) Many spies who were* Jewish* joined the Muslim army, they converted so as to get information etc. When the Muslims lost the battle of Uhud, decisions were made on how to deal with them.
> 
> That is what this verse is about. It is about a SPECIFIC incident!


I can say anything I bloody well chose.  Don't try to give me ORDERS !
As I previously said, there are dozens and dozens of Quranic verses that talk about killing Jews wherever Jews are found.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 16, 2021)

There are about 1.9 billion Muslims in the worlds, and every one of them thinks they are the real muslim.  Likewise, there are about 2.5 billion Christians, and every one of them thinks they are the real christian.  

And who's to say that any one of them is wrong??


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I can say anything I bloody well chose.  Don't try to give me ORDERS !
> As I previously said, there are dozens and dozens of Quranic verses that talk about killing Jews wherever Jews are found.


WRONG, WRONG. WRONG!!!!!   Know your history!!!! I do not give orders, I am trying to educate you!


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Indeed !  I see absolutely no hope that Muslims will ever treat women as real human beings with feelings, needs and rights. The Quran is something straight out of the stone age.



If the Quran is from the "stone age"  then the Bible is also because the Bible is older than the Quran!


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I can say anything I bloody well chose.  Don't try to give me ORDERS !
> As I previously said, there are dozens and dozens of Quranic verses that talk about killing Jews wherever Jews are found.


Choose, I am the spelling police, it’s choose


----------



## Aneeda72 (Sep 16, 2021)

Shero said:


> If the Quran is from the "stone age"  then the Bible is also because the Bible is older than the Quran!


Well in the Ten Commandments movie, the Ten Commandments were written in stone and they came before the Bible, the Quran, and the actual movie


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

What did Mohammed have to say about the Jews ?
"Judgement day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and trees, but the rocks and trees will say, "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him".


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> What did Mohammed have to say about the Jews ?
> "Judgement day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and trees, but the rocks and trees will say, "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him".


That's all you've got? 
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. That's a lot of hate to carry on your little shoulders n’est-ce pas?


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> There are about 1.9 billion Muslims in the worlds, and every one of them thinks they are the real muslim.  Likewise, there are about 2.5 billion Christians, and every one of them thinks they are the real christian.
> 
> And who's to say that any one of them is wrong??


That's pretty easy to answer.  When a public bus is traveling down the street, filled with women and children, and some terrorist group blows them up, I'd say, without any doubt, that they are wrong. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "Muslims have been murdering Jews long before there was a state of Israel and long before there was a country called America.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 16, 2021)

Shero said:


> WRONG, WRONG. WRONG!!!!!   Know your history!!!! I do not give orders, I am trying to educate you!


Educate me ? ha ha That's a laugh. You are just a trouble maker. Remember when you called me "just a jumped up waiter. wanna be chef ?" 
There is absolutely nothing can say on ANY subject that I have the slightest interest in.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Sep 16, 2021)

Thank god I'm an atheist!


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Educate me ? ha ha That's a laugh. You are just a trouble maker. Remember when you called me "just a jumped up waiter. wanna be chef ?"
> There is absolutely nothing can say on ANY subject that I have the slightest interest in.



That's a shame, because you can learn a lot from anyone who does a lot of research and that includes me!
So far I cannot say the same about you, but I am willing to wait, and learn from you, if you have anything of value to impart in the future.


----------



## Shero (Sep 16, 2021)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Thank god I'm an atheist!



I am not on the side of any particular religion. I am on the side of historical fact and research, when I see it messed up, I feel, I have to intervene!


----------



## Lara (Sep 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Many repent on their deaths beds  and, while they are sincere, they are judged on the sum total of their life and words. God judges all.


If you're talking about Christianity, and you are I assume, then you are taking that out of context and adding a face palm....which gives it a negative twist and thus a judgement of your own that isn't quite the whole truth.

Yes, repenting on one's death bed is acceptable if sincere (they only miss out on a life of blessings here on earth but won't miss out in eternal life) and yes, Christians will appear at the judgement seat but it will be more of an awards ceremony than a trial...so to speak.. If you are interested as to what really happens for Christians at the judgement seat then here it is from the source...the Bible:

"There will be another kind of judgment for all those who have been redeemed by God’s Son. Second Corinthians 5:10 says, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body (aka church or group of likeminded Christians), whether good or evil” (cf. Romans 14:10). This judgment for those who are “in Christ” is not to determine eternal destiny but to give rewards for godly service and faithfulness (Matthew 16:27; Revelation 22:12). Jesus commanded us to store up treasure in heaven (Luke 12:33). This treasure will be revealed at the judgment seat of Christ. This glorious day will be more like an awards ceremony than a trial, because everyone present has already had their eternal fate secured when they were born again (John 3:3). Jesus Himself will give us crowns and treasure to enjoy for all eternity according to what we have done with all He had entrusted to us (Matthew 25:21).

God’s desire is that His people learn to walk in holiness and fellowship with Him (Romans 8:29). As any loving parent would do, God will bring unpleasant consequences upon His children for rebellion. He expects the ones He has redeemed by the blood of His Son to set the example for the rest of the world. If the church is not in pursuit of holiness, the world sees no need to change its allegiance. So judgment begins in the household of God, with His own children, as He teaches us to live like Jesus.


----------



## Buckeye (Sep 17, 2021)

senior chef said:


> That's pretty easy to answer.  When a public bus is traveling down the street, filled with women and children, and some terrorist group blows them up, *I'd say, without any doubt, that they are wrong.*
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again, "Muslims have been murdering Jews long before there was a state of Israel and long before there was a country called America.


You are free to say what they did is wrong to you, but that doesn't make them less of a Muslim in their mind.  Same with Timothy McVey.  You and I think what he did was wrong, but at the time he thought he was following God's will.  

My point is, no one can define what "real muslims believe" (or "real christians").


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Sep 17, 2021)

senior chef said:


> What did Mohammed have to say about the Jews ?
> "Judgement day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and trees, but the rocks and trees will say, "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him".




Sad to say but in the New Testament there is a reference to Jesus calling certain Jews sons of the devil, murderer, and all that. There are other less than benign references to Jews.


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## Warrigal (Sep 17, 2021)

Jesus was a practising Jew. He was calling out injustice, not a faith or a race.
I cannot be more specific without a reference.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 17, 2021)

There is also the reference to the church in ancient Philadelphia where it was said " I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.  I will make those who are of the _synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews_ though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet'' Rev 3:7

Many anti Jewish references in the New Testament. These references were used by professing Christians such as King Ferdinand and Hitler as "justifications"  for persecuting innocent Jews.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 17, 2021)

Lara said:


> If you're talking about Christianity, and you are I assume, then you are taking that out of context and adding a face palm....which gives it a negative twist and thus a judgement of your own that isn't quite the whole truth.
> 
> Yes, repenting on one's death bed is acceptable if sincere (they only miss out on a life of blessings here on earth but won't miss out in eternal life) and yes, Christians will appear at the judgement seat but it will be more of an awards ceremony than a trial...so to speak.. If you are interested as to what really happens for Christians at the judgement seat then here it is from the source...the Bible:
> 
> ...


You seem to use God and JC interchangeably-as if they are the same.  They are not.  My son may be biologically linked to his father, but he is NOT his father.  Therefore, his judgement of situations will be different.  I don’t think I said anything about JC.  God’s people, the God you speak of, the father of JC, those people were not Christians, they were Jews.  

Again, reliance on the Bible, and the words contained in it, as the absolute truth are a mistake.   It is easy to pick and choose verses to support ones position since the Bible was written by many different men.  I could search and find verses to support my position but I won’t bother.

In point of fact, believers will be judged.  Judged and judged again.  By who remains a mystery


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## Shero (Sep 17, 2021)

.
Note to Diva: Last evening I did not give you a satisfactory reply because I was tired after two days of moving. I still may not understand what you mean, but will try:

Lara says: “Allah and God are not really the same.” For her that is true because according to her religion God is Jesus -so- in my humble opinion you should not feel you can dispute that.

Diva says: “Lara...I beg to differ. Jesus is not God.” For you this is true too because according to your religion Jesus is not God.

So, therefore we reach a stalemate since you are both correct according to your religious teaching.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 17, 2021)

Shero said:


> .
> Note to Diva: Last evening I did not give you a satisfactory reply because I was tired after two days of moving. I still may not understand what you mean, but will try:
> 
> Lara says: “Allah and God are not really the same.” For her that is true because according to her religion God is Jesus -so- in my humble opinion you should not feel you can dispute that.
> ...


Except while Lara has a tendency to interchangeably use the words JC and God when referring to a/her deity and beliefs, @Lara knows that JC is not God, but the son of God.  And almost no one even mentions the Holy Spirit, formerly known as the Holy Ghost.  

A rose by any other name is still a rose, if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it’s probably a duck, and there is only one GOD-the great I AM-whose actual name we do not know; but who I know as GOD and Diva knows as Allah and others may know as the man in the moon.  

Just saying @Shero


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## Shero (Sep 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Except while Lara has a tendency to interchangeably use the words JC and God when referring to a/her deity and beliefs, @Lara knows that JC is not God, but the son of God.  And almost no one even mentions the Holy Spirit, formerly known as the Holy Ghost.
> 
> A rose by any other name is still a rose, if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it’s probably a duck, and there is only one GOD-the great I AM-whose actual name we do not know; but who I know as GOD and Diva knows as Allah and others may know as the man in the moon.
> 
> Just saying @Shero


Oui, and I still say God has no religion


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## Warrigal (Sep 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> There is also the reference to the church in ancient Philadelphia where it was said " I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.  I will make those who are of the _synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews_ though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet'' Rev 3:7
> 
> Many anti Jewish references in the New Testament. These references were used by professing Christians such as King Ferdinand and Hitler as "justifications"  for persecuting innocent Jews.


I know that there are NT references that are hostile to the Jews. They crop up in some of the epistles and in Revelation as far as I remember. Jesus was not anti Jewish. He was aghast at corruption in the Temple and religious leaders making life very hard for the poor. He started out being harsh to the Syrophoenician woman but her words changed him. 

IMO every ancient text, religious or simply literary, contains passages that today we would consider to be quite racist because that is exactly how people in those times regarded outsiders. If anyone cares to read the original text of Robinson Crusoe or Tarzan stories the overt racism  will affront you. An understanding of context and history is needed to look beyond some passages to find deeper meanings.

I agree with Oldiebutgoodie that some people latch onto passages that they can use to further their own ends.


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## Nathan (Sep 17, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> You are free to say what they did is wrong to you, but that doesn't make them less of a Muslim in their mind.  Same with Timothy McVey.  You and I think what he did was wrong, but at the time he thought he was following God's will.


From what I've read about Timothy McVeigh, his early childhood followed the classic path of a future serial killer.   He was vehemently anti-government, and became thoroughly baptized in the uber Right-Wing culture and mindset.
"following God's will"...?    I rather doubt his sincerity, inmates(especially on death row) will make all sorts of claims to 'enhance' their image.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 17, 2021)

Shero said:


> Oui, and I still say God has no religion


And I agree, religion was invented by man


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## senior chef (Sep 17, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> And I agree, religion was invented by man


I totally agree.
Not only that, but people can read into The Bible, anything they wish to see.
Example: One Christian sect says that consumption of alcohol is a mortal sin. Most Christian sects, however, believe that Jesus and his followers regularly consumed wine.
****************************************************************************************************
As a side note: Years ago, a group of Christians attempted to recruit me into their church. They told me , and I quote, "You are going to burn in hell for all eternity for smoking cigarettes" unquote
*****************************************************************************************
When it comes to comparing Christianity with Islam, one thing is without doubt. We do not see Christians flying jet planes into buildings filled with people.


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## Lara (Sep 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Sad to say but in the New Testament there is a reference to *Jesus calling certain Jews sons of the devil, murderer, and all that*. There are other less than benign references to Jews.





Aneeda72 said:


> You seem to use *God and JC interchangeably-as if they are the same.  They are not.  My son may be biologically linked to his father, but he is NOT his father.*  Therefore, his judgement of situations will be different. * I don’t think I said anything about JC.* God’s people, the God you speak of, the father of JC, those people were not Christians, they were Jews.
> 
> Again, reliance on the Bible, and the words contained in it, as the absolute truth are a mistake.   It is easy to pick and choose verses to support ones position since the Bible was written by many different men.  I could search and find verses to support my position but I won’t bother.
> 
> In point of fact, believers will be judged.  Judged and judged again.  By who remains a mystery





Aneeda72 said:


> Except while Lara has a tendency to interchangeably use the words JC and God when referring to a/her deity and beliefs, *Lara knows that JC is not God, *but the son of God. And almost no one even mentions the Holy Spirit, formerly known as the Holy Ghost.
> 
> A rose by any other name is still a rose, if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it’s probably a duck, and there is only one GOD-the great I AM-whose actual name we do not know; but who I know as GOD and Diva knows as Allah and others may know as the man in the moon.
> 
> Just saying @Shero


@OldiebutGoodie ...Jesus was a Jew. He never called any Jew "the devil" nor "a murderer". Jesus loves everyone.

@Aneeda72 ...Jesus was a Jew. I never said Jesus was a Christian.

@Aneeda72 ...Why did you say, "Lara knows that JC is not God". My belief is that Jesus IS God. Just because your "biological son is not his father" has nothing to do the Eternal Almighty Creator and Intelligent designer who is capable of anything. Comparing your son's earthly father with The Father is apples & oranges.

I believe God is a Spirit in 3 forms for separate purposes:

1...our Father the almighty creator,
2. Jesus in human form to be able to relate to us, communicate with us, and save us from punishment for our sins
3. The Holy spirit who is our helper and dwells inside of us if we invite him in.

I simply believe because the Bible says so and I choose to believe the Bible...but you certainly can choose whatever you like....I don't care if someone chooses otherwise.
`


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## Pepper (Sep 17, 2021)

How did
What Do Real Muslims Believe?​become about the #1 spot holder on my "Top Ten Jews Who Changed the World" list?  Oh, right, I remember.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 17, 2021)

Lara said:


> @OldiebutGoodie ...Jesus was a Jew. He never called any Jew "the devil" nor "a murderer". Jesus loves everyone.
> 
> @Aneeda72 ...Jesus was a Jew. I never said Jesus was a Christian.
> 
> ...


I said you know JC is not GOD ( I am referring to God the Father) guess I was not specifically enough for you so I will rephrase.  I believe you know, due to item 1. above that JC is not God the father.  . If I am wrong and you don’t know the difference, well then, you’ve corrected me. Got to go MY son just came over.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 17, 2021)

> Lara, Jesus was a Jew. He never called any Jew "the devil" nor a "murderer".  Jesus loves everyone.






Speaking to a group of Jews, Jesus says, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44).

The Bible tells us 'that which is of flesh is flesh, that which is of spirit is spirit'. Meaning something can only come from its source. In calling those Jews sons of the devil, he was calling them devils. That is not to say he was directing those words to all Jews, only to those specifically.


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## Lara (Sep 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Speaking to a group of Jews, Jesus says, “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44).
> The Bible tells us 'that which is of flesh is flesh, that which is of spirit is spirit'. Meaning something can only come from its source. In calling those Jews sons of the devil, he was calling them devils. That is not to say he was directing those words to all Jews, only to those specifically.



Thank you @OldiebutGoodie for posting your reference. When I read your post I was both surprised and yet completely trusted that there was a truth to be told that would clear this up. And, yes, I read the whole context of John 8:31-58 (not just verse 44) and sure enough, I then understood the true meaning. That's what happens every time a verse is unintentionally taken out of context and I go read it in context.

Jesus was talking to Jews who believed in him...but also to those who didn't and had many questions for Jesus. Jesus said, "If you remain my disciples, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free". Then some in the crowd asked, "But we are descendants of Abraham and are not slaves to anyone, what makes you think you will set us free?

Jesus replied that everyone who sins is a slave of sin and not a part of the family of truth, "so if I set you free then you are truly free. Yes, I realize you are descendants of Abraham and yet some of you are trying to kill me because there's no room in your hearts for my message which I heard from God.

"Our father is Abraham they declared!" Jesus replied, "If you were really children of Abraham you would love me because I have come to you from God. God himself is our true Father."

Jesus said to only the unbelieving Jews, your Father is the devil, (meaning the Father of Lies) who was a murderer from the beginning (the devil lied to Adam and Eve causing them to sin which separated them from God aka spiritual death)." Jesus was saying that if they don't believe him (Jesus) then they are choosing the Father of Lies (devil) over God The Father, because Jesus is from God.

Then Jesus asked, "Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin?" "Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God...Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad."

I shortened this chapter ten-fold so if I'm not making myself clear you can read the whole chapter of John 31-58...and then you'll hopefully see it as I see it too. Thank you oldiebutgoody for this chance to clarify.


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## Warrigal (Sep 18, 2021)

Thanks Lara. Context is always important. 
So is some understanding of location, audience and historical background.
Plucking a sentence or two out to support a point is always problematic.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 29, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Indeed !  I see absolutely no hope that Muslims will ever treat women as real human beings with feelings, needs and rights. The Quran is something straight out of the stone age.


Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances.  When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives"  Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
@Pecos


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## Shalimar (Sep 29, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances.  When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
> Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives"  Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
> Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.


QFT.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 29, 2021)

Shero said:


> .
> Note to Diva: Last evening I did not give you a satisfactory reply because I was tired after two days of moving. I still may not understand what you mean, but will try:
> 
> Lara says: “Allah and God are not really the same.” For her that is true because according to her religion God is Jesus -so- in my humble opinion you should not feel you can dispute that.
> ...


I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). *So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation* *and it's my duty to inform her correctly.* That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.

*Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay. *
~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...*directly* *to God* don't have a relationship with Him?
~The Bible said God created heaven and earth. How could Jesus have been the creator if he wasn't born yet?
~Jesus told the council he was not worthy to be worshipped when they tried to trick him into saying he was.
~Jesus told his followers to worship *as he worshipped. Jesus did not worship himself!* Jesus worshipped God....the same God that Muslims worship and give thanks to for even the littlest things.
~Jesus has been misrepresented in more ways than one over the centuries.
@Lara @Aneeda72 @Pecos @feywon @Warrigal


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## Shero (Sep 29, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). *So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation* *and it's my duty to inform her correctly.* That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.
> 
> *Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay. *
> ~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...*directly* *to God* don't have a relationship with Him?
> ...



My thinking cap is tightly on and this is what I say!!

I had no real intention of returning to this thread, but out of politeness this is what I have to say. I am not a religious person. I believe in God, but I do not pray to God 5 times a day. I pray to God with every breath I take. I was hoping for some diplomatique mediation . Finally, what I would like to say is:

First: Jesus never wrote a word during his lifetime. Others came long after him and wrote what they thought he said, did, etc.

Second: Muhammad, could not read and write himself. He depended on scribes to write for him and a lot of opinions formed over a long time., so who knows what is true or not.

Finally, in my opinion it is all hearsay and I do believe both you and Lara are correct according to your teachings, as I said before!

I do not wish to offend anyone, so I am finished here.

La fin!!


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## senior chef (Sep 29, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances.  When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
> Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives"  Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
> Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
> @Pecos


Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.

Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.

Try selling that nonsense to the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives.

Try selling that nonsense to Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces.

Try selling that nonsense to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets.

Try selling that nonsense to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death.

Try selling that nonsense to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write. 

Good heavens , woman, get a grip.


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## Warrigal (Sep 29, 2021)

Do some reading. Women under Islam had (and still have) rights from the beginning that were not at that time guaranteed in western culture. They are not the same as the rights we enjoy under modern laws but ever since Islamic girls learned to read the Koran for themselves they have been able to claim their rights. 

Abuse of women and restriction of their freedoms is not primarily caused by religion. It is caused by male dominance, male power and male privilege. 

Malala Yousafzai is an example of the difference education can make. She has studied the Koran and no doubt the writings of scholars and she spoke out. The Taliban had other ideas about the role of women and girls and attempted to silence her. They were protecting their male power, not their Holy Book. At least, that is how I see it.


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## Lara (Sep 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> Allah and God are not really the same.
> Jesus Christ is significant in the Christian profile.
> 
> Muslims don't believe Christ as Savior nor God. I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that there is no personal relationship between Muslims and Allah. Christ is the bridge between Christians and God for developing a personal relationship.
> ...





OneEyedDiva said:


> I certainly understand being too tired to write all you'd like to write. I haven't had the chance to read through this entire long thread yet (Gosh I didn't expect all these replies!!!) but my response to @Lara was because she said Muslims do not have a real relationship with God (or words to that affect). *So she infringed on my religious beliefs first with misinformation* *and it's my duty to inform her correctly.* That led to me explaining why I said what I said...thus my replies about Jesus.
> 
> *Consider the following with your thinking cap on..okay. *
> ~How the hell does someone say that Muslims who pray 5 times a day...*directly* *to God* don't have a relationship with Him?....



You misquoted me Diva and highlighted it in Bold. Also in Bold that "I infringed on your religious beliefs" which appears angry. Please let me clarify.

I didn't say "Muslims do not have a "real" relationship...I said a "personal" relationship. And, I said "I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere". In other words, I'm no expert on Allah.

Christians refer to having a "personal" relationship with God through Christ because we believe the Spirit of God appeared as Christ in human form, so He could relate to us "personally". We pray to God "in Jesus name" so it's personal to us in that way.

Christians believe by biblical faith that God is in 3 forms, God the Father (spirit form), God the Son (human form), and God the Holy Spirit (the comforter, healer, giver of blessings like joy, etc). Some don't believe this. We were created with free will to choose our own beliefs.

If that's not Allah's way then that's okay with me for the Muslims...but it's not the God Christians know. That's the difference.

I was just discussing what the difference might be having "pretty sure read it somewhere". This is a discussion after all. My apologies if what I said wasn't clear and upset you in any way... *handshake* and a *hug*
@Pecos @Warrigal @Shero


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances.  When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
> Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives"  Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
> Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
> @Pecos




Women are treated differently in different Muslim countries.  It's more a matter of politics than religion.  Saudi Arabia is typically the worst offender.  I've attached a good summary below.  I don't think mistreatment of women is inherent in Islam, just as OneEyedDiva has said;  I think it's a political/sexist misinterpretation of Islam.  However that does lead to significant abuses.  

https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-in-the-islamic-world/a-40714427


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## Mr. Ed (Sep 30, 2021)

Real Muslims are like real people, what do you believe?


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## feywon (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.
> 
> Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.
> 
> ...


You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices. 
You also need to learn more about history of the world. 

 Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.


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## helenbacque (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.
> 
> Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.
> 
> ...



Whenever I see pictures such as this, I have to ask, "What are Muslim men so afraid of?"


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## Packerjohn (Sep 30, 2021)

Sorry but  I will not contribute anything here.  I have learned over many years never to argue or debate politics and religion.  That's just me.


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## feywon (Sep 30, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> Whenever I see pictures such as this, I have to ask, "What are Muslim men so afraid of?"


The same thing *many* men of other faiths and without faith are often afraid of:
Losing their power over others, particularly women.


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## feywon (Sep 30, 2021)

This is the last i'm going to post  on this thread:

This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something--you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being. Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?


And can someone please explain me to how it is acceptable to judge all Muslims by an extremist group that as JimBob1952 said has more to do with politics (and patriarchal power i'd add) than religion but when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not *real* or *all* Christians'. And while there are many subdivisions of Christianity (Not all believe in the Holy Trinity, tho they accept the importance of Jesus) there are subdivisions and differences in how various Muslims interpret and practice their faith. Why the double standard?

The Abrahamic Religions in general have always fostered Patriarchal dominance. The exceptions have been some of the words attributed to Jesus and some of Muhammed's writings. It says more about some followers of each faith than about the faith itself that way too many who claim those faiths ignore and/or distort the teachings of those they claim to 'worship'---but it really says nothing about those who choose to follow Christ and Muhammed's teachings more closely.

All faith's and philosophies get distorted overtime to suit the personal feelings and the purposes/agendas of those citing scriptures or philosophical treatises as their guide. i have heard people distort Buddhist and Hindu principles to suit their needs, but i certainly wouldn't judge all of either group by what those few do/say. i keep telling atheists that use the atrocities committed in the name of various faiths as reasons to not have any kind of spirituality that 'religion' itself also does a lot of good and the fault is not in the concepts of various faiths--but in how some people practice/apply/distort the concepts. That is to say--the less attractive qualities of human nature (greed,need for power/dominance over others) are the problem not the spirituality and religions in and of themselves.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 30, 2021)

feywon said:


> You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices.
> You also need to learn more about history of the world.
> 
> Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.





feywon said:


> This is the last i'm going to post  on this thread:
> 
> This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something--you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being. Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?
> 
> ...



Well thought out post.


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## Lara (Sep 30, 2021)

feywon said:


> You are the one who needs to 'get a grip'--on your prejudices.
> You also need to learn more about history of the world.
> 
> Christians have been and continue be as guilty of patriarchal BS oppression of women as the Muslim extremist groups.





JimBob1952 said:


> Well thought out post.



Huh? Well thought out? feywon's reply, "get a grip on your prejudices" was directed toward @senior chef in post #254, and I'm not defending him. But what about your own prejudices toward Christians, feywon? And judging us as "patriarchal BS oppression"?? If you had read the New Testament you would know all the answers to your questions. But I'll answer them in a short version.

I'm sorry to hear you have so much anger and animosity toward Christians of today. Maybe this will help...

This thread is not about "the history of the world". It's not about the Old Testament even. It's about now...today. You said "Christians continue to be guilty of patriarchal BS". Are you talking about the Pope? I'm not Catholic but...So What if they want a leader they all agree on?  If someone doesn't like it they can pick a different church. That's the beauty of many different churches...we all can worship how we choose.

Are you talking about how God created man to be physically stronger and expected to be the leader of the household in the Old Testament? And women were meant to nurture, heal, to have children at a time when it was necessary to populate the earth. When a husband and wife argue about a household decision and no side is a winning then someone has to end up making a decision. It was to facilitate peace, harmony, and order. It was to keep the family together. It wasn't in the 10 Commandments. It's not a requirement to get to heaven.

There is one chapter in the NT that admonishes women in the Church of Corinth to be silent...it's not oppression when read in context. It was because they were gossiping and being loud which was disruptive in the church and a reason for using men as the church leaders as well. You have to agree that many (not all) women are more into gossip and being catty than men.  It wasn't oppression of women. It was natural consequences.

Christians of today are using the New Testament as a guide for becoming more Christ-like each and every day. If they aren't trying then they aren't obeying God.

feywon, you said, "...will someone please explain when anyone starts citing all the abuses and atrocities committed by Christians the response is always---'Oh, well that's not MY brand of Christianity' or 'That's not *real* or *all* Christians'."

It's because the Bible is crystal clear, "By their fruits ye shall know them". It further says if a "christian" sins the same sin over and over and doesn't repent, then "They will say Lord Lord and I will know them not".


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Well said, Lara.


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## Pepper (Sep 30, 2021)

I know plenty of Christians, Catholic & Protestant and I never met one who was constantly blabbing about it.  They know what they are.  They just are.


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## Murrmurr (Sep 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I know plenty of Christians, Catholic & Protestant and I never met one who was constantly blabbing about it.  They know what they are.  They just are.


Same for Muslims. I chat with the Muslim family that owns the convenience store on the corner and we blab a lot, but I doubt we blabbed about religion more than twice in the 5 years I've known them. One of their sons likes to blab about baseball. The mom, dad, and old uncle like it when I bring Paxton with me. They like to blab with him.


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## Tom 86 (Sep 30, 2021)

Only GOD & the bible knows the real answers. 
There's getting to be a lot of Anti-Christs out there nowadays that tells you what you want to hear & do.


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## Pinky (Sep 30, 2021)

Pepper said:


> I know plenty of Christians, Catholic & Protestant and I never met one who was constantly blabbing about it.  They know what they are.  They just are.


That's what turned me off Christianity .. my aunt, who I loved, was a bible-thumper of the highest order.


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## TabbyAnn (Sep 30, 2021)

Real Muslims believe the ideology of Islam written in the Quran, which is available in libraries all over the world, some with the Arabic on half the page and the English translation made by a high ranking Muslim scholar on the other half. The ideology of Christ and the Buddha and some other religious leaders, are personal self-improvement courses not aimed at controlling other people. The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.


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## Pepper (Sep 30, 2021)

Islam and capital punishment. Islam on the whole accepts capital punishment. But even though the death penalty is allowed, *forgiveness* is preferable. *Forgiveness, together with peace, is a predominant Qur'anic theme.*Sep 16, 2009
Religions - Islam: Capital punishment - BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk › religions › islam › islamethics


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## caroln (Sep 30, 2021)

I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about anything Muslim but I'm going to mention something I saw on TV, Criminal Minds to be specific.  An agent of the FBI, Special Agent Jason Gideon, was interviewing a Muslim man who was being held in prison at Guantánamo Bay.  The Muslim man was accused of planning a bombing in the US.  At the end of the interview Gideon asks the Muslim man, what did we ever do to offend you?  And the man replies, _you offend me by existing_. To me, that's chilling.

That particular episode was written by an FBI agent and won a Human Rights Award for Excellence in Television.

I realize TV is not a good source for documentation but it's unnerving to think how many Muslims are out there with that attitude.


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

TabbyAnn said:


> Real Muslims believe the ideology of Islam written in the Quran, which is available in libraries all over the world, some with the Arabic on half the page and the English translation made by a high ranking Muslim scholar on the other half. The ideology of Christ and the Buddha and some other religious leaders, are personal self-improvement courses not aimed at controlling other people. The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.


Spot on, Tabby.


----------



## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

caroln said:


> I don't pretend to be knowledgeable about anything Muslim but I'm going to mention something I saw on TV, Criminal Minds to be specific.  An agent of the FBI, Special Agent Jason Gideon, was interviewing a Muslim man who was being held in prison at Guantánamo Bay.  The Muslim man was accused of planning a bombing in the US.  At the end of the interview Gideon asks the Muslim man, what did we ever do to offend you?  And the man replies, _you offend me by existing_. To me, that's chilling.
> 
> That particular episode was written by an FBI agent and won a Human Rights Award for Excellence in Television.
> 
> I realize TV is not a good source for documentation but it's unnerving to think how many Muslims are out there with that attitude.


Indeed !  The number one Muslim goal is to ultimately conquer all countries and wipe out all other religions. If only 1% of all Muslims think like that, then there are over 15,000,000 who think like that.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban... the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license... the Muslim women who are not allowed to even go shopping for groceries without her husband or one of his close relatives... Muslim women who are forced to wear truly bizarre clothing which covers every square inch of their bodies … including their faces... to any Muslim woman who has been beaten by Muslim men in the streets... to the spirits of women who have been stoned to death... to the women and girls of Afghanistan where, until the Americans came, it was illegal to teach any female to read and write.


All of those things are true and awful.  I know the perpetrators often use the Islamic religion to justify it.  However this is not uniformly true of Muslims, I have spent time in Muslim countries like Indonesia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and the UAE where these things do not happen.  The contrast between Kuwait and Saudi is a case in point, both are Muslim and they are close neighbors.  However women have many more rights in Kuwait, I have seen Kuwaiti women on jetskis in bikinis!  Never happen in Saudi.  I think these things are more cultural tied to the local peoples than religious.  Although Kuwait and Saudi are close neighbors their histories and ethnic makeups are very different.


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## Lara (Sep 30, 2021)

TabbyAnn said:


> ...The Quran, on the other hand, contains civilian laws for controlling others and harsh punishments Muslims are to administer to each other for breaking those laws. It also contains the rules of engagement for war, which are not present in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha and other peaceful ideologies. These harsh civilian laws collected from the Quran, called Sharia Law, is the law of the land in most predominately Muslim countries, and include beatings, beheadings, chopping off body parts, wife beating, and so on. Saudi Arabia still practices beheadings in the public square.


I was wondering when someone was going to post this elephant in the room.


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## Shalimar (Sep 30, 2021)

Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also  good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> I shortened this chapter ten-fold so if I'm not making myself clear you can read the whole chapter of John 31-58...and then you'll hopefully see it as I see it too. Thank you oldiebutgoody for this chance to clarify.




Indeed. As I wrote he was only referring to a specific group, not to all. However, in 1 John 2:22 it is written that  anyone and everyone who denied Jesus is Messiah is an "anti Christ":  1 JOHN 2:22 KJV "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (kingjamesbibleonline.org).  Rev 19:20 indicates the Antichrist will be put into burning sulfur.


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## caroln (Sep 30, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also  good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.


I don't think anyone here is singling out Islam.  It just happens to be the subject of this post.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Too bad you are so misinformed. In fact, Muslim women were given rights over 1,400 years ago, as stated in the Holy Quran, that women in this country didn't have, such as the right to own property, own their own businesses, participate in politics, get divorces, receive alimony (except if the woman was found guilty of open lewdness), the right to inheritance and handle their own finances.  When I took a womens' study course around 1985 (I went to college as an adult), there were states in this country where women could not inherit property. And do you recall when women's suffrage was and why it took place? Look it up. it's late now so I won't take the time to do what I'd normally do...find links for you.
> Also Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said this about husbands and wives and this advice still stands and is often repeated by Muslim Imams and authors. "The best of men are those who are good to their wives"  Muslim men are advised concentrate on their wives' good traits and overlook the negative ones. Muslim men are told they should ask their wives' permission to leave the conjugal bed (ie: make sure she's satisfied).They are also advised to seek counsel from their wives in important matters, help their wives around the house and stay involved with raising the children. Muslim husbands and wives are advised to "play together", to enjoy one another and be "blankets" for one another (eg: protection).
> Clearly you have overlooked the number of abused women in this country who are not Muslims, whose husbands are not Muslims in keeping with your propensity for tunnel vision! And it's not just some Muslim women who get abused...it's some women of all races, creeds, religions and social backgrounds. Some of that is cultural...not religious.
> @Pecos





Also note the fact that 70-80% of new converts to Islam are women.


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## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

I do not have the time right now, but will come back to this although I said I will not becuse I do NOT consider feyon's post "well thought out"at all. More later.


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## jerry old (Sep 30, 2021)

Hush, topic has lead towards bruised feelings, enough.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 30, 2021)

Earlier I made historical references to Muslims protecting Jews from persecution and extermination.   Another instance that I overlooked was the fate of Kavkaz (Caucasus) Mountain Jews who were being hunted down by Nazis.  They were protected by local Muslims and their lives were spared as shown below:


Soviet times, Holocaust and modern history[edit]​


Synagogue in Gilaki quarter of Qırmızı Qəsəbə which was reopened in 1941 after initially being closed by Bolsheviks.
By 1926, more than 85% of Mountain Jews in Dagestan were already classed as urban. Mountain Jews were mainly concentrated in the cities of Makhachkala, Buynaksk, Derbent, Nalchik and Grozny in North Caucasus; and Quba and Baku in Azerbaijan.[25]

In the Second World War, some Mountain Jews settlements in North Caucasus, including parts of their area in Kabardino-Balkaria were occupied by the German Wehrmacht at the end of 1942. During this period, they killed several hundreds of Mountain Jews until the Germans retreated early 1943. On September 20, 1942, Germans killed 420 Mountain Jews near the village of Bogdanovka. Some 1000–1500 Mountain Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. Many Mountain Jews survived, however, because German troops did not reach all their areas; in addition, attempts succeeded to convince local German authorities that this group were "religious" but not "racial" Jews.[26][27]

The Soviet Army's advances in the area brought the Nalchik community under its protection.[28] The Mountain Jewish community of Nalchik was the largest Mountain Jewish community occupied by Nazis,[28] and the vast majority of the population has survived. With the help of their Kabardian neighbors, Mountain Jews of Nalchik convinced the local German authorities that they were Tats, the native people similar to other Caucasus Mountain peoples, not related to the ethnic Jews, who merely adopted Judaism.[28] The annihilation of the Mountain Jews was suspended, contingent on racial investigation.[26] Although the Nazis watched the village carefully, Rabbi Nachamil ben Hizkiyahu hid Sefer Torahs by burying them in a fake burial ceremony.[29] The city was liberated a few months later.



Mountain Jews - Wikipedia





While Western professing Christians continually accuse Muslims of hating Jews and attempting to exterminate them, it is a historical fact that millions of Jews are alive today because Muslims saved their lives.  Saving other's lives is what Muslims really believe in.


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## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Hush, topic has lead towards bruised feelings, enough.


Do not worry, I am a kind person BUT I am intereted in facts.


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Certain portions of the bible also contain exhortations to administer vile punishments. Fortunately, times change. It is also  good to remember that many Nazis espoused Christianity. Look how that worked out. From time immemorial, people have used religion as an excuse to exercise power over those they hate and or fear. To single out Islam is both prejudicial and ill informed.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the title of this thread "What do real Muslims believe ?"
Had it been 'What do real Christians believe ?'  then we would be talking about Christians … not Muslims. In any event, Christians do not hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings full of innocent people.


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## Warrigal (Sep 30, 2021)

Of course not because they/we have drones that can be sent using advanced technology to target people in their homes or vehicles without ever needing to risk our own lives. Not as deadly in one hit but there are plenty more drones to send later.


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## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the title of this thread "What do real Muslims believe ?"
> Had it been 'What do real Christians believe ?'  then we would be talking about Christians … not Muslims. In any event, Christians do not hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings full of innocent people.



So, 19 Muslims(out of 1.9 billion ) hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings.   This is statically insignificant, you do realize? Only the most closed minded would accept this as being "proof" that Muslims are* more likely* than Christians to commit mass murder /atrocities.

I'm not here to bash Christians, but surely anyone with internet access can find many instances of mass violence perpetrated by Christians.


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

* Those who do not learn from history, are condemned to repeat it*


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> So, 19 Muslims(out of 1.9 billion ) hijack passenger jets and then crash them into buildings.   This is statically insignificant, you do realize? Only the most closed minded would accept this as being "proof" that Muslims are* more likely* than Christians to commit mass murder /atrocities.
> 
> I'm not here to bash Christians, but surely anyone with internet access can find many instances of mass violence perpetrated by Christians.


Nathan, if you can find any incident of Christians hijacking passenger planes and slamming them into buildings, full of innocent people, then I'll apologize  and retract everything I have said. 

If you can find any incident of Christians murdering Olympic athletes then I'll apologize. (Munich)

If you can find any incident of Christians hijacking cruise liners and murdering Jews, (Leon Klinghoffer), then I'll apologize.

Obviously, the Nazi's did far, far worse. However that was not Christianity based. It was based entirely on the mad ravings of the National Socialist Party.

Christians have evolved into civilized people. Can the same be said of Muslims ?


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## Warrigal (Sep 30, 2021)

Civilisation is a very thin and fragile veneer.


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## Aneeda72 (Sep 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> Huh? Well thought out? feywon's reply, "get a grip on your prejudices" was directed toward @senior chef in post #254, and I'm not defending him. But what about your own prejudices toward Christians, feywon? And judging us as "patriarchal BS oppression"?? If you had read the New Testament you would know all the answers to your questions. But I'll answer them in a short version.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you have so much anger and animosity toward Christians of today. Maybe this will help...
> 
> ...


And this is a problem for me and many people, where a Christian, according to the Bible, can sin, over and over the same sin, and then, supposedly, according to the Bible, “repent” and JC is, hmm, well, sure if you have repented, and you are sincere, you are forgiven-come on in.  

And the victim, the survivor is, hmm, waving her/his arm screaming, hey, JC, what the heck?  Yup, the Bible, hurray for the NT -I am sticking with the Ten Commandments.


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## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

Feywon said: “This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something:”

_That is a blanket statement. To learn anything one must go to the source i.e. the holy books etc._

Feywon said: “you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being.

_That is definitely not learning about the faith. That is reading someone’s testimony which can be misleading. Go to the source as I said above._

Feywon said: “Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?”

_Here again you are assuming all media reports are biased. Why do you do that? There are many factual documentaries, praised by Muslim leaders for their authenticity.

_This thread is about “Real Muslims” not Christians or anything else, so we talk about Muslims, okay? What is a real Muslim? A real Muslim follows devotedly the Five Pillars of Islam. The five pillars are : *the declaration of faith (shahada), prayer (salah), alms-giving (zakat), fasting (sawm) and pilgrimage (hajj)*. They are accepted by Muslims globally regardless of ethnic, regional or sectarian differences. Practice all that and you can say you are a “Real Muslim.”

Another thing: to understand a religion you must study the life of the person who started that religion. Most of us know many things about the life of Jesus and other prophets etc. so, it is important to at least read the *Sira* which is a short version of the life of Mohammed.

I am a lover of biographies and yes, I have read it. It is not only a biography but also a sacred Islamic text of how devout Muslims should live their lives. A point mentioned: Mohammed says to accept all religions and treat no one differently because of their religion. Do not condemn, the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus or others.

I could write a lot more,but why trouble myself! But this I will say:

I believe we are all heading in the same direction, but some will arrive there, wherever, with very high blood pressure and some will be calm and full of grace.
I will also say in my extended family I have Jews, Muslims and Christians and I llove them all!!


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## Lara (Sep 30, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> And this is a problem for me and many people, where a Christian, according to the Bible, can sin, over and over the same sin, and then, supposedly, according to the Bible, “repent” and JC is, hmm, well, sure if you have repented, and you are sincere, you are forgiven-come on in.
> 
> And the victim, the survivor is, hmm, waving her/his arm screaming, hey, JC, what the heck?  Yup, the Bible, hurray for the NT -I am sticking with the Ten Commandments.


No, that's according to Aneeda, not according to the Bible.


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## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Nathan, if you can find any incident of Christians hijacking passenger planes and slamming them into buildings, full of innocent people, then I'll apologize  and retract everything I have said.
> 
> If you can find any incident of Christians murdering Olympic athletes then I'll apologize. (Munich)
> 
> ...


Thanks, but I'm not going to play the patsy, why don't *you* go search google and present evidence to support your position?   I'm not seeking an apology or retraction from you, but I am standing by my assertion that your argument that Muslims are more likely to commit atrocities is purely infantile BS.


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## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> * Those who do not learn from history, are condemned to repeat it*
> View attachment 186644



*Why are you allowed to put these pictures up??? Is this not inciting racial hatred???*


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## Gary O' (Sep 30, 2021)

I'm sooooooo sooooooo glad we can't discuss politics here....

Anybody up for pizza?


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## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

.
May I please ask this question of Matrix?  Can you explain why senior chef is allowed to put up pictures inciting racial hatred?
*
His posts are not about discussing Islam, it is all about denegration and hate*????


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## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Islamophobia has spread so widely because people take the worst of what they see so called Muslims do and judge all Muslims by those things.



OK so let's take this discussion back on track.    It occurred to me that folks are forgetting WHY there is even a conflict between *Palestinians*(not specifically Muslims!) and the West.  
In 1947 the *Palestinians *got kicked out of  their homeland by Western powers, and left to rot in refugee camps for over 30 years. I'm not going to provide a link, you all are old enough to remember this. As time past, and promise after promise was broken, the Palestinians that were left to rot in refugee camps realized that nobody cared, and then some became committed to seek justice in their own fashion.

You can only keep your knee on someone's neck for so long, after a while they might just take exception to that and take action on their own.


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## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

Shero said:


> *His posts are not about discussing Islam, it is all about denegration and hate*????


I don't agree with what he says, not on this topic anyway, and have often tried to respond.

However in my experience he does represent what a lot of people believe.  And he is an articulate intelligent person.  So much as I may disagree with him I read his posts and have learned from him.


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## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Thanks, but I'm not going to play the patsy, why don't *you* go search google and present evidence to support your position?   I'm not seeking an apology or retraction from you, but I am standing by my assertion that your argument that Muslims are more likely to commit atrocities is purely infantile BS.


Perhaps you were living off grid and have never heard of 9/11 ?


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## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Perhaps you were living off grid and have never heard of 9/11 ?


So, just for the record:  are you saying that if one were to *have heard* of 9/11 then it would logically follow that one would believe that Muslims are more prone to violence than Christians?

Really?  This is such a short circuit of intellect, I can barely imagine we're having this conversation.


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Obviously, the Nazi's did far, far worse. However that was not Christianity based. It was based entirely on the mad ravings of the National Socialist Party.





Hitler and the Catholic church - Bing images

No different from what the church did to Jews and to Native Americans at the time of Columbus.  I could also give a reference to Protestants and slavery but you get the picture.


----------



## Warrigal (Sep 30, 2021)

Of course we have all heard of 9/11. 
Have you looked further back in time to the Blitz and the carpet bombing of Germany?

What do they have in common? Both were more about waging war than anything that is integral to any religion. 

9/11 was an attack on the USA, not on christianity. It was political and an example of modern guerilla warfare. A dozen or so men armed with box cutters succeeded in killing thousands.

The strategy was to attack the major symbols of western power - Twin Towers, financial power - Pentagon, military might - Washington, political power. It was terrorism, pure and simple and it immediately drove millions crazy. It also put muslims everywhere in danger of retaliation. This was not an act supported by the majority of muslims in the world but it was cheered by those people who considered US and her allies to be their enemy.


----------



## Shero (Sep 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I don't agree with what he says, not on this topic anyway, and have often tried to respond.
> 
> However in my experience he does represent what a lot of people believe.  And he is an articulate intelligent person.  So much as I may disagree with him I read his posts and have learned from him.


That's good Alligatorob, hope you continue to gain more knowledge from him


----------



## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Hitler and the Catholic church - Bing images
> 
> No different from what the church did to Jews and to Native Americans at the time of Columbus.  I could also give a reference to Protestants and slavery but you get the picture.


As I previously said, 'Christians have evolved tremendously since those long ago times. Can the same be said about Muslims?'


----------



## senior chef (Sep 30, 2021)

Quite frankly, I am shocked to my very core that so many here on SF have their heads buried deeply in the sand. The majority of us, here on SF, are U.S. citizens, yet many openly act as apologists for Muslim atrocities. I have no doubt that if they thought they could get away with it, they'd deny 9/11 ever happened. 
Good grief, much of it sounds like something written by Al Jezeera.


----------



## Shalimar (Sep 30, 2021)

Christians in my country are responsible for thousands of dead aboriginal children who were forcibly taken from their parents, put in residential schools. The search goes on to find unmarked graves. Hardly civilised.


----------



## Nathan (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Quite frankly, I am shocked to my very core that so many here on SF have their heads buried deeply in the sand. The majority of us, here on SF, are U.S. citizens, yet many openly act as apologists for Muslim atrocities. I have no doubt that if they thought they could get away with it, they'd deny 9/11 ever happened.
> Good grief, much of it sounds like something written by Al Jezeera.


So, disagreeing with senior chef earns a designation of "heads buried deeply in the sand"?   It appears that you are operating purely on emotional knee-jerk, and have no intellectual resources in play whatsoever.     C'mon man, you can do so much better!


----------



## Alligatorob (Sep 30, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Quite frankly, I am shocked to my very core that so many here on SF have their heads buried deeply in the sand. The majority of us, here on SF, are U.S. citizens, yet many openly act as apologists for Muslim atrocities. I have no doubt that if they thought they could get away with it, they'd deny 9/11 ever happened.
> Good grief, much of it sounds like something written by Al Jezeera.


I think  you misunderstand what a lot of folks are saying.  I don't see apologists for atrocities, only people who are concerned with labeling them as "Muslim".  I think doing that makes it harder for us to understand the root causes and what should best be done about them.  We also risk alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are not terrorists, many of whom are our allies, or potential allies in fighting terrorism.  

To lump the Taliban or al-Qaeda with the rest of Islam is akin to lumping the likes of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the KKK with Christianity.  The KKK claims to be a "Christian" organization but we don't talk about "Christian lynchings".


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I think  you misunderstand what a lot of folks are saying.  I don't see apologists for atrocities, only people who are concerned with labeling them as "Muslim".  I think doing that makes it harder for us to understand the root causes and what should best be done about them.  We also risk alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are not terrorists, many of whom are our allies, or potential allies in fighting terrorism.
> 
> To lump the Taliban or al-Qaeda with the rest of Islam is akin to lumping the likes of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the KKK with Christianity.  The KKK claims to be a "Christian" organization but we don't talk about "Christian lynchings".


I don't know, man. I just don't understand how people, especially Americans, could think like that.
They remind me of that wacko Willie Nelson and his bizarre ideas re; 9/11 (Can't talk about politics, so I best let that drop)

Re; the vast majority of Muslims ?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the so-called "peaceful" majority of Muslims rising up to help find the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11

Seriously, what am I supposed to call those who have sworn to kill as many Americans as they can ?
The people who attacked us on 9/11 were not Buddhists. Not Christians. Not Jews. Not Eskimos. They were Muslims. Perhaps it would satisfy some if I referred to those who want to destroy America and to drive all Israeli's into the sea as  'those misguided, naughty people '?


----------



## WheatenLover (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Quite frankly, I am shocked to my very core that so many here on SF have their heads buried deeply in the sand. The majority of us, here on SF, are U.S. citizens, yet many openly act as apologists for Muslim atrocities. I have no doubt that if they thought they could get away with it, they'd deny 9/11 ever happened.
> Good grief, much of it sounds like something written by Al Jezeera.


I don't know any Muslims who have committed atrocities.


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> I don't know any Muslims who have committed atrocities.


It is probable that none of the passengers on those 4 hijacked airliners did either. That is, until it was too late.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> As I previously said, 'Christians have evolved tremendously since those long ago times. Can the same be said about Muslims?'




Are you sure about these "Christians"?

https://img.thedailybeast.com/image...ch/140130-rosenbaum-neo-nazi-tease_tjcng3.jpg


I don't want to get too much into this as the Admin may view it as political.  But if you read the headlines this group has been declared to be the biggest menace in our society today.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Oct 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> I don't know any Muslims who have committed atrocities.




Muslims CONDEMNED 9/11:

https://www.google.com/search?q=mus...rome..69i57.6039j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Are you sure about these "Christians"?
> 
> https://img.thedailybeast.com/image...ch/140130-rosenbaum-neo-nazi-tease_tjcng3.jpg
> 
> ...


The men in that photo are not Christians. They are neo-Nazis. They are pariahs on the body of civilized man.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> The men in that photo are not Christians. They are neo-Nazis. They are pariahs on the body of civilized man.





They  call themselves "Christians" as well as "patriots".


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

Since the title of this thread is, "What do real Muslims believe ?" I assume that includes all aspects of Islam.
For a frightening view into Islamic beliefs, watch the true story movie, "Not without my daughter" , starring Sally Fields. (Currently on Amazon Prime for rent)


----------



## WheatenLover (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> It is probable that none of the passengers on those 4 hijacked airliners did either. That is, until it was too late.


Of course they didn't. If they had known they would not have boarded the planes. Terrorists don't advertise their plans in advance. That doesn't mean that all or most Muslims are terrorists or radicalized. Terrorists don't have to be a significant percentage of a population to be very dangerous people. It is not our job to identify them, but if it were mine, I'd do it to the best of my ability (which, hopefully, would be light years ahead of my ability to do it now).


----------



## JimBob1952 (Oct 1, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I think  you misunderstand what a lot of folks are saying.  I don't see apologists for atrocities, only people who are concerned with labeling them as "Muslim".  I think doing that makes it harder for us to understand the root causes and what should best be done about them.  We also risk alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are not terrorists, many of whom are our allies, or potential allies in fighting terrorism.
> 
> To lump the Taliban or al-Qaeda with the rest of Islam is akin to lumping the likes of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or the KKK with Christianity.  The KKK claims to be a "Christian" organization but we don't talk about "Christian lynchings".




Not quite the right analogy.  Fundamentalist Islam has taken over whole nations and set them against the West.  Look at Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Qaddafi.   Cults like the ones you mentioned are outliers.  Afghanistan pre-9-11 provided safe haven to terrorists as a matter of national policy.  The KKK is a decrepit organization with about 3000 members nationwide, and the last lynching in the US was forty years ago.  

I don't fully agree with Senior Chef but it's foolish to ignore the problems created by fundamentalist Islam, or to draw bogus parallels with criminal acts performed by "Christians."


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> Of course they didn't. If they had known they would not have boarded the planes. Terrorists don't advertise their plans in advance. That doesn't mean that all or most Muslims are terrorists or radicalized. Terrorists don't have to be a significant percentage of a population to be very dangerous people. It is not our job to identify them, but if it were mine, I'd do it to the best of my ability (which, hopefully, would be light years ahead of my ability to do it now).


I'm not at all clear on what your point is.  

When it comes to my personal safety, I am pro-active.  Whenever I am able to identify Muslims around me, I exit the area. When I was still traveling, and I had a plane ticket, and if I spotted a Muslim boarding that same flight, I notified the stewardess and told her I refused to fly on the same flight.  It only happened once, but I was given a ticket on the next flight.


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## Don M. (Oct 1, 2021)

I suspect that it's a tossup between Politics and Religion as to which is the most "divisive", and which has been the primary cause of human conflict, over the centuries.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 1, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Fundamentalist Islam has taken over whole nations and set them against the West. Look at Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Qaddafi. Cults like the ones you mentioned are outliers. Afghanistan pre-9-11 provided safe haven to terrorists as a matter of national policy.


You are right about the counties that have been taken over by extremists and conducting state sponsored terrorism, big problem.  And a number of those active now are Muslim countries.  My point was that we offend a lot of non-problem Muslims when we use terms like "Muslim terrorists".  It also oversimplifies and misleads on the problem.  That does us no good.

All states that sponsor terrorism today are not Muslim, places like North Korea, and even Russia. 


JimBob1952 said:


> The KKK is a decrepit organization with about 3000 members nationwide, and the last lynching in the US was forty years ago.


Yes, fortunately today's KKK is much different from what it once was, and we are a better country for it.  I was thinking more of the historic KKK, which 100 years ago had millions of members, and was probably involved in thousands of lynchings.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

feywon said:


> This is the last i'm going to post  on this thread:
> 
> This thread was an opportunity for those of you who have never actually known any Muslims to learn something--you could have asked questions of a practicing member of the faith why she converted, or about her daily habits that are related to her faith, about how her her faith informs who she is as a human being. Why when you acknowledge you don't know much about the faith (except what you read in biased biased media and social media commentaries) would you presume to make statements about that faith instead of inquiring of a member of it what they believe?
> 
> ...


Brilliantly written my friend!! I couldn't have "said" it better myself! Your points are right on. I also noticed the  hypocrisy in some of the replies. And of course (without naming names...but we know who), some of the comments are just ridiculous. But we have a saying....some people are "born not to know". I have been so busy that I'm still working my way through this thread but I did want to respond to you and *thank you* and others who get it...for your support.
@Pecos @Shalimar @Warrigal @JimBob1952


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> I don't know, man. I just don't understand how people, especially Americans, could think like that.
> They remind me of that wacko Willie Nelson and his bizarre ideas re; 9/11 (Can't talk about politics, so I best let that drop)
> 
> Re; the vast majority of Muslims ?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the so-called "peaceful" majority of Muslims rising up to help find the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11
> ...


Us?  Don’t you live in Mexico?  Doesn’t that make you a ex-patriot?


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Of course we have all heard of 9/11.
> Have you looked further back in time to the Blitz and the carpet bombing of Germany?
> 
> What do they have in common? Both were more about waging war than anything that is integral to any religion.
> ...


Correctly stated Warrigal ! My husband was one who was attacked after 9/11 because some idiot *assumed* he was an Arab. Due to my husband's complexion, some people didn't know if he was a tanned white man, Hispanic or Arab. My husband went to deliver an order to one of his customers. He always wore his scarf around his neck (made like the one some Muslims men wear on their heads). A man said "damned Arab" and attacked him with a knife. Blessedly my husband was able to keep him off, tell him who and what he was and avoid harm.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Not quite the right analogy.  Fundamentalist Islam has taken over whole nations and set them against the West.  Look at Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Libya under Qaddafi.   Cults like the ones you mentioned are outliers.  Afghanistan pre-9-11 provided safe haven to terrorists as a matter of national policy.  The KKK is a decrepit organization with about 3000 members nationwide, and the last lynching in the US was forty years ago.
> 
> I don't fully agree with Senior Chef but it's foolish to ignore the problems created by fundamentalist Islam, or to draw bogus parallels with criminal acts performed by "Christians."


The KKK is alive and well and not that long ago was trying to recruit people in Wildwood *N.J*. We may not have heard about lynchings but White Supremacists are carrying out other heinous crimes whether individually or mass murders. I understand your points and don't disagree with them.  The KKK are insidious in that they (White Supremacists) have infiltrated levels of government, police forces and even schools. Some are in effect, hiding in plain sight, spewing their hate and (in the school system), no matter how subtle, negatively influencing the minds of children of color. Consider that U.S. intelligence has named White Supremacists as one of the biggest threats America faces right now.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

caroln said:


> I don't think anyone here is singling out Islam.  It just happens to be the subject of this post.


Well apparently you haven't read through this entire thread!


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

Shero said:


> My thinking cap is tightly on and this is what I say!!
> 
> I had no real intention of returning to this thread, but out of politeness this is what I have to say. I am not a religious person. I believe in God, but I do not pray to God 5 times a day. I pray to God with every breath I take. I was hoping for some diplomatique mediation . Finally, what I would like to say is:
> 
> ...


I believe your statements about Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are correct. You would not be the first and I'm sure, not the last to deem it all hearsay.  I am not offended but do wish to be held to the same expectations as anyone else. I read what seemed to be a double standard and addressed it. No harm...no foul.


----------



## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

May I suggest that before anyone else posts a single word on this thread, they watch the excellent film "Not without my daughter".   It can be rented on Amazon PRIME. It is a true story of an American woman's personal experience with Islam.


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## Remy (Oct 1, 2021)

@senior chef I read the book. There were people who helped her and not just for money. Her husband was a mean person.


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## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> Whenever I see pictures such as this, I have to ask, "What are Muslim men so afraid of?"


Speaking as a man, I have some insight on what motivates SOME men. In my opinion, Muslim men are afraid of the power that women have.  There are many kinds of power: physical power, political power, financial power and ****** power. 
When a woman gets all dressed up, complete with make-up and makes herself beautiful, she has the power to pick and choose which man, if any, she will date, and which she will turn down. That is precisely what Muslim men are afraid of.  In many, perhaps most, Islamic countries it is the man who has all the power. He looks upon her as PROPERTY.
Thus when Islam forces a woman to wear the full burka, Islam is denying the woman her natural ****** power.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Try selling that nonsense to the Taliban.
> 
> Try selling that nonsense to the Saudis , where, until quite recently, women could not even get a drivers license.
> 
> ...


Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.

_"Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of *22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.*_
_Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". _BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
"Here is the partial statistic of how many women died in the U.S. at the hands of their partners according to an article published by The Atlantic.
_The CDC analyzed the murders of women in 18 states from 2003 to 2014, finding a total of *10,018 deaths.* *Of those, 55 percent were intimate partner *violence-related, meaning they occurred at the hands of a former or current partner or the partner’s family or friends. In 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. The report also bucks the strangers-in-dark-alleys narrative common to televised crime dramas:"_
Psychology Today made the following connection in an article about domestic violence leading to murder on the rise:
_"*The mainstreaming of white supremacy and domestic violence are closely connected.* A recent New York Times article, “A Common Trait Among Mass Killers: Hatred Toward Women,” _
_From the Violence Policy Center more recent state:_
_• "*Nationwide, 1,946 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2018*, at a rate of 1.28 per 100,000. Of the 1,946 female homicide victims, 1,215 were white, 605 were Black, 56 were Asian or Pacific Islander, 30 were American Indian or Alaskan Native, and in 40 cases the race of the victim was not identified."  _
My point continues to be that women all over the world and even right here in the good ole U.S. of A. are being brutalized, trafficked, used as sex slaves and subjected to other heinous acts. I haven't even covered the domestic abuse cases that did not end in murder or the prostitutes working for their pimps.  FYI...I don't know the deal with these damned bullets but I'm not able to delete them.
@JimBob1952


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## Shero (Oct 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Brilliantly written my friend!! I couldn't have "said" it better myself! Your points are right on. I also noticed the  hypocrisy in some of the replies. And of course (without naming names...but we know who), some of the comments are just ridiculous. But we have a saying....some people are "born not to know". I have been so busy that I'm still working my way through this thread but I did want to respond to you and *thank you* and others who get it...for your support.
> @Pecos @Shalimar @Warrigal @JimBob1952



It is always better to confront than to insinuate Diva.

It is also noble to"support" your friends BUT to sweep facts aside is not helpful. The way to really support a friend and I do this myself.  is to say it as it is. while still loving them, otherwise no one learns. 

It will at this point in time to name who you refer to as to "hypocricy". After all it seems everything is sur la table, one more dish will only add to the essence of this thread.


----------



## Shero (Oct 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I believe your statements about Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are correct. You would not be the first and I'm sure, not the last to deem it all hearsay.  I am not offended but do wish to be held to the same expectations as anyone else. I read what seemed to be a double standard and addressed it. No harm...no foul.



Here again Diva: you refer to "double standards" - please clearly say what you mean and who is showing those double standards. As I said before, confront rather than insinuate. It makes life much easier.
I do not understand the statement "no harm, no foul" please explain?


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## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
> 
> _"Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of *22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.*_
> _Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". _BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
> ...


There is no question that the above links are true.  
However, the only RELIGION that supports, indeed actively encourages, complete domination of women, is Islam.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 1, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Speaking as a man, I have some insight on what motivates SOME men. In my opinion, Muslim men are afraid of the power that women have. There are many kinds of power: physical power, political power, financial power and ****** power.
> When a woman gets all dressed up, complete with make-up and makes herself beautiful, she has the power to pick and choose which man, if any, she will date, and which she will turn down. That is precisely what Muslim men are afraid of. In many, perhaps most, Islamic countries it is the man who has all the power. He looks upon her as PROPERTY.
> Thus when Islam forces a woman to wear the full burka, Islam is denying the woman her natural ****** power.


I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying, and it applies to men in many places and religions.  Even here in the US in some cases, and not so long ago in many.

When I was in Saudi we used to drive across the causeway to Bahrain.  Saudi women were required to wear the burqa and could not leave the country without their husband or a male relative.  Halfway to Bahrain there is a manmade island with customs and immigration things.  The Saudis have a building all women are required to go through.  It was interesting going in the Saudi side there was a line of women all in burqas, coming out the other side, into Bahrain, many of the women were in tight reveling clothing, tight pants, etc.  It appeared they had a changing room on the Bahraini side.  Then I noticed some of the women in burqas on the Saudi side were in high heels, guess those are ok.

As a note both Bahrain and Saudi are Muslim countries.


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## senior chef (Oct 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
> 
> _"Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of *22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.*_
> _Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". _BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
> ...


One HUGE thing you are forgetting.  In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.

However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her.  Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.

Compare the laws in Christian countries against that of Muslim countries.
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/islam-and-womens-rights/


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## Shero (Oct 1, 2021)

Give it a rest le cook, this is too boring. Go put up some recipes. A new version of mac and cheese maybe?


----------



## Warrigal (Oct 1, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Correctly stated Warrigal ! My husband was one who was attacked after 9/11 because some idiot *assumed* he was an Arab. Due to my husband's complexion, some people didn't know if he was a tanned white man, Hispanic or Arab. My husband went to deliver an order to one of his customers. He always wore his scarf around his neck (made like the one some Muslims men wear on their heads). A man said "damned Arab" and attacked him with a knife. Blessedly my husband was able to keep him off, tell him who and what he was and avoid harm.


In Sydney it was Hijabi women who bore the brunt of the anger, especially after the Bali bombings. To our credit many Australians started a movement called "I will ride with you" to support muslim women on public transport. I seldom travelled on public transport so I made it my policy to always smile at women wearing the hijab at the shopping centres. I also initiated conversations by admiring their children and babies. The smiles I received in return were pure gold.

The prejudice lasted for a long time and when a muslim organisation wanted to build a mosque near me there was the usual objections, supposedly on the grounds of insufficient parking spaces but it was really NIMBYism against muslims. I joined a FB group in support of the mosque because my thinking was freedom of religion must apply to all faiths. If muslims cannot worship in peace then my freedom is also under threat. My support was very encouraging but the path ahead was strewn with pitfalls. Plans for the mosque were changed to make it a community centre with space for worship and underground parking was included. Then the local council, under pressure from the anti mosque group, changed the rules. The new rules would mean that if today my congregation wanted to build the church we now enjoy we would not be able to. This is injustice fuelled by prejudice so I offered to attend the council meeting to support a couple of young muslim women speaking up against the proposed changes. They were grateful for my support even though the changes were passed.

Somehow, in the following years, progress has been made. That worship centre and several other  small mosques have been established and guess what? No-one turns a hair because there have been no problems, just as there have been no problems with the large Sikh gurdwara that is also not too far from me. I have visited it a couple of times by invitation and the people are all, IMO, excellent citizens of my country.

This year during Ramadan I was able to attend an iftar dinner where the hosts provided the most amazing hospitality to a number of non muslim guests. Again, an absolutely delightful and productive encounter. The conversation was very open and enlightening. Our hosts had a Turkish background and they were not complimentary to President Erdogan.

We need to remember just as Christianity is not monolithic, neither is Islam.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 2, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Why don't you try telling the thousands of women who have been sexually abused by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the women and girls who are trafficked and sold into sex slavery by other than Muslim men? Why don't you try telling the ghosts of the women who have been brutally slain by their own husbands or partners (who were not Muslim men)? These are the 2019 stats on sex trafficking in the U.S.
> 
> _"Since 2007, the National Human Trafficking Hotline has gotten reports of *22,191 sex trafficking cases in the US.*_
> _Since 2016, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has estimated that one in six endangered runaways were likely to be sex trafficking victims". _BTW..they just busted a huge sex trafficking ring in Newark, N.J. this year.
> ...


I think @senior chef is what they call a troll.  After all, a person who cannot potty train a puppy, and refuses to listen to the advice of people about how to raise a puppy, let’s a puppy get sick, can not possibly see any point of view besides his own.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 2, 2021)

senior chef said:


> One HUGE thing you are forgetting.  In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.
> 
> However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her.  Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.
> 
> ...


The “courage to report abuses to the police”-what do you know of courage?  Explain your acts of courage to us.  *You live in Mexico, you can even get good treatment for your puppy in Mexico, according to you.*


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## Warrigal (Oct 2, 2021)

senior chef said:


> One HUGE thing you are forgetting.  In ALL Christian countries, there are laws that were designed to protect women. Are those laws perfect ? Do they fail sometimes ? Yes, of course. Just like there are laws against murder, robbery etc. They do not work 100 % of the time.
> 
> However, if a woman has the courage to report abuses to the police, the system generally works to protect her.  Example: it is quite common for an abused woman to get a judge to mandate that the abuser keep a distance of 100 feet from that woman. If he violates that judges order, he is re-arrested and charged with another crime.
> 
> ...


The law does not protect women from abusive men. At best it punishes the offender. At worst it doesn't take the woman's complaint seriously. The most dangerous thing a woman can do is to leave an abusive and controlling husband. It is quite likely that she will then be murdered, or her children will be killed in front of her. None of this has anything to do with religion.


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## caroln (Oct 2, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Well apparently you haven't read through this entire thread!


Sorry.  I was just referring to the title of the thread.  Didn't mean to upset anyone.


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## JimBob1952 (Oct 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> You are right about the counties that have been taken over by extremists and conducting state sponsored terrorism, big problem.  And a number of those active now are Muslim countries.  My point was that we offend a lot of non-problem Muslims when we use terms like "Muslim terrorists".  It also oversimplifies and misleads on the problem.  That does us no good.
> 
> All states that sponsor terrorism today are not Muslim, places like North Korea, and even Russia.
> 
> Yes, fortunately today's KKK is much different from what it once was, and we are a better country for it.  I was thinking more of the historic KKK, which 100 years ago had millions of members, and was probably involved in thousands of lynchings.




The phrase "Muslim terrorists" is a descriptor.  The terrorists we are talking about are specifically Muslim and they use their interpretation of Islam as a justification for their acts.  If they were North Korean we would call them North Korean terrorists.  My original point is that Muslim terrorists are not representative of Islam as a whole.  That's where Senior Chef and I differ.  But it does no good to whitewash or apologize for the acts of stridently Islamic groups like ISIS or al-Shebab.  

The historic KKK was powerful and terrifying.  The point is that its influence has diminished to essentially nothing.  That's progress.  The extirpation of Islamic-inspired terror would also be progress, as would the abolition of strictures on women, the abolition of punishments like cutting off the hands of those accused of theft, and other practices.  I'm no theologian but I'm sure there is a way to reconcile that kind of progress with being a faithful Muslim.


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## Alligatorob (Oct 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> it does no good to whitewash or apologize for the acts of stridently Islamic groups like ISIS or al-Shebab.


I agree and did not intend to suggest otherwise.


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## JimBob1952 (Oct 2, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I agree and did not intend to suggest otherwise.




I don't think you did and I wasn't referring directly to your post, hope you understand

thanks


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 2, 2021)

caroln said:


> Sorry.  I was just referring to the title of the thread.  Didn't mean to upset anyone.


Not upset at all Caroln!!


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 2, 2021)

Shero said:


> Here again Diva: you refer to "double standards" - please clearly say what you mean and who is showing those double standards. As I said before, confront rather than insinuate. It makes life much easier.
> I do not understand the statement "no harm, no foul" please explain?


I covered the double standard thing with you in a previous reply. So clearly stated, I feel you held a double standard when you said I had no right to "beg to differ" with Lara about something I know and I have lived when I made my points (based on what I've learned as a former Christian and now Muslim) *but* you didn't say she had no right to say Muslims don't have a personal relationship with God (which is contrary to Muslim..thus my beliefs).
There are other hypocritical replies as well where people sweep "the facts" as you call them, under the rug and seem to refuse to acknowledge that terrible acts have been carried out in the name of Christianity.


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## Tom 86 (Oct 2, 2021)




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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> You misquoted me Diva and highlighted it in Bold. Also in Bold that "I infringed on your religious beliefs" which appears angry. Please let me clarify.
> 
> I didn't say "Muslims do not have a "real" relationship...I said a "personal" relationship. And, I said "I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere". In other words, I'm no expert on Allah.
> 
> ...


I didn't misquote you because I didn't use quotes. I clarified what I said about what you wrote with "words to that affect", which clearly means I didn't quote you directly.  At this point, I think it's best we do what a very good friend of mine and I do. We agree to disagree. She and I do not share the same political and sometimes social views. But we listen to each other and respect each other's opinions and experiences. We sometimes joke about how dull the world would be if everybody had the same opinions about everything.  Again, please remember that my opinions, knowledge and experiences come from living most of my life as a Christian, now as a Muslim. Although I visited Baptist and Pentecostal churches, we attended the African Methodist Episcopalian (AME) church and I attended since I was a child. Our church did not teach that Jesus is God. Subsequent lectures I saw by other Christian ministers mirrored that.

Also, I want to address the Sharia Laws and harsh punishments. Remember Sharia Law is not new. It was enacted centuries ago. Beheadings took place in other parts of the world among non Muslims back then. They took place in Germany and France, among other places. If you scroll down, you'll read that guillotine executions were a source of entertainment in France. So apparently, there were a lot of "elephants" in a lot of rooms back then. Many Muslims are moving away from the harshness of Sharia Law. @Tabby Ann
https://medium.com/lessons-from-his...-guillotine-executions-in-france-434ad8189349

FYI, I put some words in bold print to accentuate my points. Showing anger or online yelling is done by using all caps. So yes..lets shake hands, give virtual hugs and  keep it moving. No hard feelings intended. I reiterate a former statement. I think you are a nice person Lara.  Peace
@Shero @Pecos @Warrigal @Shalimar @Alligatorob @JimBob1952


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Women are treated differently in different Muslim countries.  It's more a matter of politics than religion.  Saudi Arabia is typically the worst offender.  I've attached a good summary below.  I don't think mistreatment of women is inherent in Islam, just as OneEyedDiva has said;  I think it's a political/sexist misinterpretation of Islam.  However that does lead to significant abuses.
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/womens-rights-in-the-islamic-world/a-40714427


I wholeheartedly agree.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 2, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> View attachment 186954


This meme is inaccurate. Muslims revere Jesus as a great prophet. Also all Muslims are not from other countries. I was born and raised right here in New Jersey. Being Muslim never shut my husband's mouth about things he saw anyone doing wrong, including other Muslims. Being Muslim never squished my freedom of speech. Just ask anybody who knows me.  So really...the meme is just perpetrating ignorance and perhaps should have been posted in the joke section.


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## JimBob1952 (Oct 2, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> View attachment 186954



Let me say, as a conservative Irish former Catholic now halfhearted Episcopalian, that I find this pretty offensive.


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## JimBob1952 (Oct 2, 2021)

Let me also say that separation of church and state is one of the great ideas of all time.


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## senior chef (Oct 2, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Let me say, as a conservative Irish former Catholic now halfhearted Episcopalian, that I find this pretty offensive.


Now, why on earth would a Irish conservative, former Catholic, find that offensive ?


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## JimBob1952 (Oct 2, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Now, why on earth would a Irish conservative, former Catholic, find that offensive ?



Well, just for starters, Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet and someone to be respected.  Some Muslims wear bikinis, some don't.  And my Jewish daughter-in-law doesn't eat pork.  Does that mean she shouldn't live in the US?  

As for freedom of speech, One Eyed Diva seems to be doing a pretty good job of representing her side.


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## Shero (Oct 2, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I covered the double standard thing with you in a previous reply. So clearly stated, I feel you held a double standard when you said I had no right to "beg to differ" with Lara about something I know and I have lived when I made my points (based on what I've learned as a former Christian and now Muslim) *but* you didn't say she had no right to say Muslims don't have a personal relationship with God (which is contrary to Muslim..thus my beliefs).
> There are other hypocritical replies as well where people sweep "the facts" as you call them, under the rug and seem to refuse to acknowledge that terrible acts have been carried out in the name of Christianity.



I am sorry Diva, you covered nothing satisfactorily, but I am not going to go into this again with you. I would like to point out if you did not go to extreme length to "defend" your new religion, none of this would have happened.

You opened as the saying go "a can of worms" and by doing that you left the way open for those who are controversial to have open court.

For me personally, I would not have put myself in that position. People have their thoughts and people will say very bad things which we may not like. One cannot go into battle every time that happens otherwise one will have no life. You may as well build a wall around yourself.

My motto in life is let my own behaviour speak for itself. It is not necessary to do otherwise, the only thing that comes from that, is pain, and then you have to be a big person to take the pain on, that you invited. All of these pages were totally unnecessary.


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