# Divorce Wasn’t Common Then



## Jules (Apr 11, 2021)

Back in the 50s or 60s divorce was rare.  Was anyone else from a divorced or separated family, especially back then?

By the 80s it was common and nowadays it seems like marriage is less likely to happen.

It was just something that I accepted as a child.  With my first marriage, I realized that having my children in a very unpleasant setting was worse than a bit of stigma re divorce.


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## grahamg (Apr 11, 2021)

Jules said:


> Back in the 50s or 60s divorce was rare.  Was anyone else from a divorced or separated family, especially back then?
> By the 80s it was common and nowadays it seems like marriage is less likely to happen.
> It was just something that I accepted as a child.  With my first marriage, I realized that having my children in a very unpleasant setting was worse than a bit of stigma re divorce.



You may find this interesting, Quote:
"*English “Kinsey” Report: Love Without Shame Is New, Healthier Thinking in Britain*

"How do American women compare with their British cousins in ****** behavior?"

Writer Lester David asks and answers this question with his summary of the "English Kinsey report" in the August issue of Coronet. The report on ****** behavior in England is the result of a four-year study conducted by Dr. Eustace Chesser.


Method Differs

Dr. Chesser, a psychologist, did not follow the Kinsey method of face-to-face interviews. He sent out written questionnaires, of which 6,251 were completed. His conclusions were based on these.

The British psychologist, unlike Kinsey, covered more thoroughly the effects of family and marriage relationships, religion in the home and parental control. Kinsey's study emphasized the biological side of sex life.

On the whole the trend in Britain parallels that in the U.S., Chesser found. A London newspaper sums up one of Chesser's most significant findings:

"Love without shame is the essense of new and healthier thinking which is developing slowly in Britain."

In the U.S., Kinsey found that almost 50 percent of the 5,940 women studied had had ****** intercourse before marriage, with their finances or other men. In England, while only 19 percent of women born before 1904 admitted to premarital experience, with those born after 1934 the proportion is up to 60 percent.

More Regrets

But there is a difference in attitude. Of American women, with premarital experience, only about 12 percent expressed "minor feelings of remorse." Around 35-42 percent of their British counterparts felt regret.

By the time they reached 40, Kinsey found, 26 percent of married women had committed adultery.

Cresser didn't ask this question of his subjects, but he did ask how many of the married women sometimes wanted a man other than their husbands. One out of every two women admitted they did get tired of monogamy.

One of Kinsey's biggest surprises was that the average American women reaches the peak of her ****** desires in her late 20's—almost a decade later than the male. In her 50's and 60's she is still going strong, while the male has gone downhill. But with English women, Chesser found there is "a steady fall from one age to the next."

Rich Pet More

Up to 95 percent of British women have petted by the time they are 18, Chesser found—and there is more petting among the well-to-do than among the daughters of unskilled laborers. Foreign observers "are amazed at the open display of love-making" in public places.

Do women prefer chaste husbands? Here there was a great difference between Americans and British. Only one out of four U.S. women wanted to marry an inexperienced husband. With the "exceptionally happy" and "very happy" English wives, the proportion was just reversed: three out of four wanted their husbands "innocent."

What do English single women look for in husbands? Forty percent looked for physical strength. Twenty percent, for ****** strength.

"The vast majority," for a warm and affectionate nature, understanding and interest in children. Only three percent, for good looks.

What is the best guarantee of a happy marriage in England? Happily married parents, Chesser found."

http://www.hawaii.edu/uhwo/clear/Ho...ame Is New Healthier Thinking in Britain.html


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## Rosemarie (Apr 11, 2021)

During  the war, my father was in the Middle East. When he returned home, he found that his wife had become involved with an American soldier while he was away. He divorced her. This was something which happened to many married couples at that time.
There used to be a certain stigma attached to being divorced, as though it was a sign of failure. Couples tended to stick together just for the sake of appearance, or for practical reasons.
These days, it's much easier for a single mother to survive and so more couples split up, which is surely much better for everyone concerned.


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## Wren (Apr 12, 2021)

I think the contraceptive pill had a lot to do with the rise in divorce statistics at that time, giving women their freedom, no longer tied down with big families and being able to work, they gained independence financially and realised they didn’t have to put up with the treatment many of their mothers did, my own included, having three children and financially dependent on my father


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 12, 2021)

My parents divorced in 1963 when I was nine.  It made sense to me and was not a problem but it did change our standard of living.  I remember moving to a sketchy $75.00/month apartment and being broke most of the time.  We were fortunate that we lived close enough to my grandmother so we could be dropped off by the bus after school and walk home when our mother got off work.

I remember my mother had to fly out of state and meet a three-day residency requirement in order to get a no-fault/uncontested quickie divorce.  In October of 2010, New York became the last of the 50 states to enact legislation allowing for no-fault divorce.

My mother remarried a couple of years later and that was much more difficult for me than being a divorced/latchkey kid.

Every kid needs to know that no matter how difficult life is things can and usually do get better as we get older.

At least that was the case for me and I'm thankful for the way things turned out.


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## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

My parents weren’t divorced but life would have been a lot less hostile if they were. They argued and played head games constantly. My mom said if there were birth control pills at the time we were conceived , she would have taken them however it was a blessing to be latch key kids. There’s a silver lining to every problem and that was it.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

My mother divorced her first husband back in the 40's, long before I was born. She divorced him because he was unfaithful. She always acted embarrassed about it and we were not allowed to discuss it with anyone. There definitely was a stigma attached to it in our house.


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## hollydolly (Apr 12, 2021)

My father divorced his first wife  or maybe she divorced him..we were never told the details ,...in early 1950's...he married my mother  a few months later


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## horseless carriage (Apr 12, 2021)

Divorce was not only rare when I was a child, it was, as we were taught in our catholic school, immoral, abandonment of children and totally against God's will. All divorcees will go to hell, probably in the same hand cart as the rest of us.

Divorce never touched me, it was hardly likely to. My Mother died aged just 33, leaving my Father with four children to raise alone. The authorities did all they could to put us into care and then up for adoption but my Father fought them hard, and won.

It would be fair to say that I grew up with a chip on my shoulder, a poor little me chip. At the time I didn't realise that but later, as I got older, I started to meet young adults of my age that were from single parent homes, their parents had divorced. One young lady put me wise. I had probably told her about my mother's death in a way that she was able to read how I felt sorry for myself. 

After quite a long chat I came to see that I have a kind of closure, my mother is dead, brutal though that is, it's final. Children of divorcees live with the fallout, learn to cope. This young lady had experienced her mother's boyfriend trying to get his hand up her skirt. She did me a power of good, made me realise that mother's spirit is still alive, she lives within me. Since then, I talk to my Mother, just thoughts, in my head. I never forgot that young lady, or her therapeutic words. I even had a sense of guilt that her pain had been my therapy.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

It is a rather odd thing to say marriage vows that include "let no man tear asunder", "in sickness and health", and "unto death do us part" ... and then say "not really" or "I didn't REALLY mean all that" as a divorce commences.  The part that I think should be changed is the vows portion.  There can be practical reasons to get a divorce and for each situation it is different and difficult for us, on the outside looking in, to judge.  So maybe the vows should be something along the lines of "we will give it our best effort...".   

Tony


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## Pinky (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> It is a rather odd thing to say marriage vows that include "let no man tear asunder", "in sickness and health", and "unto death do us part" ... and then say "not really" or "I didn't REALLY mean all that" as a divorce commences.  The part that I think should be changed is the vows portion.  There can be practical reasons to get a divorce and for each situation it is different and difficult for us, on the outside looking in, to judge.  So maybe the vows should be something along the lines of "we will give it our best effort...".
> 
> Tony


My daughter and son-in-law wrote their own vows, which many couples seem to do today. Daughter also kept her maiden name. Different times ...


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## Aunt Bea (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> It is a rather odd thing to say marriage vows that include "let no man tear asunder", "in sickness and health", and "unto death do us part" ... and then say "not really" or "I didn't REALLY mean all that" as a divorce commences.  The part that I think should be changed is the vows portion.  There can be practical reasons to get a divorce and for each situation it is different and difficult for us, on the outside looking in, to judge.  So maybe the vows should be something along the lines of "we will give it our best effort...".
> 
> Tony


It seems reasonable to me.

We've lowered our standards on so many other things why not marriage.

Maybe a 7-year license with an option to renew/renegotiate.


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## Pinky (Apr 12, 2021)

In the 40's, my mother's husband at the time (not my father), allowed her to leave, but would not give her a divorce. He also allowed her to only take the 2 girls, and leave the 2 boys with him. She later met my father, and they had me and my brother. They finally had a civil ceremony at City Hall in the late 70's. I don't know why they waited that long, but knew it was important to my mother especially.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

Looking through my genealogy, I have an ancestor (great, great great grandmother), who left her husband in the 1840s.  Shd moved West and took her kids. She did get a divorce.  I think the man filed for it based on abandonment. What I found interesting is that she remarried, but the date of her remarriage was before her divorce date.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> It seems reasonable to me.
> 
> We've lowered our standards on so many other things why not marriage.
> 
> Maybe a 7-year license with an option to renew/renegotiate.


My wife and I were each divorced when we met.  We were friends for a couple of years before we started dating and we didn't live together before we were married.  I can't speak to my wife's first marriage since I never asked and it is none of my business.  As for me, I was a mess when I got back from Vietnam.  Back then, we didn't know what the problems were.  We just got tossed into civilian life to fend for ourselves.  It took several years before I could start putting my life back together and I should have never gotten married.  

It wasn't until the military started coming back from the Middle East that we started hearing in the media all about their struggles, and those of us who were in Vietnam started understanding what had happened to us.  By then, my life was quite settled though.  I wish we had known about these things back when we came home instead of being ostracized by the country for having been in Vietnam.

So many people, when talking about a divorce will put it all on the other person.  I have seen it clearly as my fault for quite some time and am truly sorry to have put my first wife through that.  I do think there are times when divorce is a necessity, and I think my first wife was completely right and sensible in doing so.  This is why I don't feel I can judge somebody else.  

Tony


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## Jules (Apr 12, 2021)

As a child of divorce, the thing that bothered me most was the different last name when my mother remarried.  Back then people didn’t use an AKA.  It would have been so much easier if they had. Two of my granddaughters used my daughter’s second husband’s name.  They still call him dad even though that marriage ended several years ago.  Too bad their mother didn’t do a name change when she married him.  They’re thinking of doing it now.


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## Don M. (Apr 12, 2021)

Marriage is Never easy....it requires some effort, by Both members, to succeed and last.  Today, almost half the marriages end in divorce.  This often causes problems for any children the couple might have, and usually affects both of them financially.  

Even though my wife and I are both Bull Headed Germans, we learned a long time ago to let the crap go in one ear, and out the other.  So far, that has worked well for nearly 56 years.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

My husband's parents and another couple, did a wife swap type thing in the late 60's. They got divorced and married each other's spouse. Boy was that a mess, especially for the kids (6 altogether from both couples).


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

In my previous post, I forgot to add that my wife and I have been together almost 38 years.  She has had many health issues, involving many stays in the hospital and many surgeries.  Tomorrow, we are leaving to go to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN (about 90 miles south of us) for her to consult with doctors there about yet another surgery.

I have been learning over the years how to be her caretaker, which has included learning from the nurse that would visit her at home to change dressings and drainage bulbs, how to do it myself so the nurse didn't have to be there.

So we have been living up to our vows, have no plans to stop doing that.

Tony


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## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> My husband's parents and another couple, did a wife swap type thing in the late 60's. They got divorced and married each other's spouse. Boy was that a mess, especially for the kids (6 altogether from both couples).


Whoa! Thats a tough one.  Your poor husband. What a head trip that must have been. School must have been fun.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Whoa! Thats a tough one.  Your poor husband. What a head trip that must have been. School must have been fun.


The two couples did not live in the same house, although fairly close. Plus everyone moved across the country (from Montana to North Carolina), which did help, since no one knew them. I think the move was very traumatic, plus adding new step-sisters and brothers.


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## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> The two couples did not live in the same house, although fairly close. Plus everyone moved across the country (from Montana to North Carolina), which did help, since no one knew them. I think the move was very traumatic, plus adding new step-sisters and brothers.


Well that must have at least been tolerable but stihl....


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

He is still uncomfortable talking about it.


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## Keesha (Apr 12, 2021)

Jeweltea said:


> He is still uncomfortable talking about it.


Can’t  really blame him.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

Jules said:


> Back in the 50s or 60s divorce was rare.  Was anyone else from a divorced or separated family, especially back then?
> 
> By the 80s it was common and nowadays it seems like marriage is less likely to happen.
> 
> It was just something that I accepted as a child.  With my first marriage, I realized that having my children in a very unpleasant setting was worse than a bit of stigma re divorce.


Marriage and relationships have become disposable, just like everything in our world today.

I often use the saying... "_nothing means nothing anymore_", and I firmly believe it.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

Just curious...

Why is it called "wife swapping" instead of "husband swapping" or "couples swapping"?  Maybe it is always the husbands that instigate it?

I have only personally known one person who admitted to trying wife swapping, and only on one occasion long before I knew him.  I used to hear all those whispered rumors about wife swapping back in the 70s, but other than this one person, I never actually knew anybody who tried it, or at least admitted to it.

Tony


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Why is it called "wife swapping" instead of "husband swapping" or "couples swapping"?  Maybe it is always the husbands that instigate it?
> 
> ...


My guess is it's more manly when the term "_wife swapping_" is used.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 12, 2021)

What never made sense to me was laws stating it is legal to marry at 18 years of age. At 18 the typical teen know less than nothing about life and how to manage it. "NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY" applies to low income jobs not marriages.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> My guess is it's more manly when the term "_wife swapping_" is used.


I guess my mind just doesn't work that way.  To me, a man is somebody who steps up to his responsibilities to his family, and wife swapping just doesn't seem to me to be a part of that.

However, I can see your point since mainstream "manly" is not something I agree with, but recognize its pervasiveness.

Tony


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I guess my mind just doesn't work that way.  To me, a man is somebody who steps up to his responsibilities to his family and wife swapping just doesn't seem to me to be a part of that.
> 
> Tony


Sure, I agree, just as a woman accepts and steps up to the plate to embrace her responsibilities, but knowing how forefront men have always been in society (traditionally), with women tending to be in the background (traditionally), "_wife swapping_" just seems befitting to me.

Just think... those wife-swapping men can congregate at some stinky hole in the wall pub, sliding beers back while sharing their stories with one another, and then when the day comes for everything to be split down the middle, they can once again congregate at the same stinky hole in the wall pub and cry together.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Why is it called "wife swapping" instead of "husband swapping" or "couples swapping"?  Maybe it is always the husbands that instigate it?
> 
> ...


In my in-laws case, I guess it was probably "couples swapping", but they did marry each others spouse and everyone stayed married.


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## Jeweltea (Apr 12, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> What never made sense to me was laws stating it is legal to marry at 18 years of age. At 18 the typical teen know less than nothing about life and how to manage it. "NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY" applies to low income jobs not marriages.


Back in the old days, when I was young, it was common to get married at 18. I am certainly not saying people should, it was just quite common where I grew up.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

Additionally, what I see in marriages and relationships today, is outside the scope of the ideals of marriage and relationships back in the day.

Marriage (back in the day) was about marriage, today, marriage (from a lot of what I see) is about - w_hat's in it for me_. What can I get out of this relationship?

Materialism, a trophy (significant other wrapped around arm), money, status.

We don't have to look long or far to observe the fake and shallow lifestyles along with the disposable marriages that Hollywood so proudly graces the world with for our viewing enjoyment and pleasure from day-to-day, and it casts itself upon today's younger generation, relaying to everyone that it's okay to live that kind of lifestyle.

As the old saying goes... "_we're a product of our own making_".


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## Gaer (Apr 12, 2021)

This is just my opinion, but I think in the future, marriage vows will be completely different.  It will be temporal and renewable if both parties agree.  Eternal marriage is not possible on Earth.  It can be eternal in the absolute field of existence
This is a lowly world in the scheme of things, and we have not reached our full potentials or the highest levels of God consciousness.

With the high rate of divorse, something is not working.
Adultery is rampant.  

Ladies, If you are married to a man who is actually FAITHFUL to you, Wow! You better treasure him!


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> This is just my opinion, but I think in the future, marriage vows will be completely different.  It will be temporal and renewable if both parties agree.  Eternal marriage is not possible on Earth.  It can be eternal in the absolute field of existence
> *This is a lowly world in the scheme of things*, and we have not reached our full potentials or the highest levels of God consciousness.
> 
> With the high rate of divorse, something is not working.
> ...


I'm trying to talk myself into thinking along these lines more and more all the time, Gaer.


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## grahamg (Apr 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Marriage and relationships have become disposable, just like everything in our world today.
> I often use the saying... "_nothing means nothing anymore_", and I firmly believe it.


Be careful, double negatives can be very tricky, thus if your statement is taken as true, then equally "everything mean everything now" is true too!


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## JonDouglas (Apr 12, 2021)

Growing up in a small farm town, I didn't know of anyone who'd been divorced, probably for all the reasons previously stated.  I do wonder if couples today put less work into their relationships than in times past.  It takes work.


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## officerripley (Apr 12, 2021)

My parents got divorced in 1958 and I got picked on by the other kids at school because of it. But within just a few more years, you were considered weird if you're parents _weren't _divorced.


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## Gaer (Apr 12, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Growing up in a small farm town, I didn't know of anyone who'd been divorced, probably for all the reasons previously stated.  I do wonder if couples today put less work into their relationships than in times past.  It takes work.


When my husband was alive, we just had a kind of happy-go-lucky relationship.  People (usually religious people ) would talk about how marriage needs work!  We would look at each other and scratch our heads.  "What work?"  Marriage was fun!  There wasn't any "work" involved!
So, This statement confuses me!
Jon, I'm not in any way condemning your statement, but, I don't remember any "stress" or "Fear" or "work" to keep the marriage together.  It was just enjoyable!


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## PamfromTx (Apr 12, 2021)

My lovely parents divorced in the 1960s and remarried.  I'll never know what was behind their divorce as they never talked about it and we were too young to even know what had transpired.  It was years later that my mother told us that they had gotten divorced, but remarried.


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## JonDouglas (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> When my husband was alive, we just had a kind of happy-go-lucky relationship.  People (usually religious people ) would talk about how marriage needs work!  We would look at each other and scratch our heads.  "What work?"  Marriage was fun!  There wasn't any "work" involved!
> So, This statement confuses me!
> Jon, I'm not in any way condemning your statement, but, I don't remember any "stress" or "Fear" or "work" to keep the marriage together.  It was just enjoyable!


Sometimes unexpected things can intervene (e.g.,  spouse almost dying causing personality change, ill health, early onset dementia, problems with children, etc.) that can put a strain on a relationship.


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## Pepper (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> When my husband was alive, we just had a kind of happy-go-lucky relationship.  People (usually religious people ) would talk about how marriage needs work!  We would look at each other and scratch our heads.  "What work?"  Marriage was fun!  There wasn't any "work" involved!
> So, This statement confuses me!
> Jon, I'm not in any way condemning your statement, but, I don't remember any "stress" or "Fear" or "work" to keep the marriage together.  It was just enjoyable!


Me, too.  It was never work.  It is now.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> When my husband was alive, we just had a kind of happy-go-lucky relationship.  People (usually religious people ) would talk about how marriage needs work!  We would look at each other and scratch our heads.  "What work?"  Marriage was fun!  There wasn't any "work" involved!
> So, This statement confuses me!
> Jon, I'm not in any way condemning your statement, but, I don't remember any "stress" or "Fear" or "work" to keep the marriage together.  It was just enjoyable!


Maybe we are fortunate, but my wife and I were friends for several years before getting serious and eventually getting married.  So I guess I would describe our experience as much like yours.  True, I am also her caretaker, but to me, that is part of what the marriage vows are about.

Tony


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## Rosemarie (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> Just curious...
> 
> Why is it called "wife swapping" instead of "husband swapping" or "couples swapping"?  Maybe it is always the husbands that instigate it?
> 
> ...


My husband wanted us to try 'swinging' as it's called. I took it as confirmation that he didn't love me and that was the beginning of the end.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> My husband wanted us to try 'swinging' as it's called. I took it as confirmation that he didn't love me and that was the beginning of the end.


Smart move on your part, bad move on his.

Tony


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## DaveA (Apr 12, 2021)

Gaer said:


> This is just my opinion, but I think in the future, marriage vows will be completely different.  It will be temporal and renewable if both parties agree.  Eternal marriage is not possible on Earth.  It can be eternal in the absolute field of existence
> This is a lowly world in the scheme of things, and we have not reached our full potentials or the highest levels of God consciousness.
> 
> With the high rate of divorse, something is not working.
> ...


That's a nice thought if you can confine it to just the two of you.  

Not so nice when you think about the children who suffer the consequences or do we tell the kids to start banging away as soon as they're old enough because marriage and commitment are a thing of the past.  Grab the most attractive girl or guy, have a good time and cast them aside when someone better comes into view.

You are probably correct as to the direction in which life is heading but for sake of our kids, I can't see myself wishing to hurry it along.


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## horseless carriage (Apr 12, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Additionally, what I see in marriages and relationships today, is outside the scope of the ideals of marriage and relationships back in the day.
> 
> Marriage (back in the day) was about marriage, today, marriage (from a lot of what I see) is about - w_hat's in it for me_. What can I get out of this relationship?
> 
> ...


Well said Marg. Reflecting on my earlier post about my Mother's premature death, what I experienced in the aftermath, as did my siblings, is that my Father couldn't physically go to work, come home, cook a meal, make sure our homework was done, get us off to bed. Get the vacuum out, clean the place, make sure that the dusting was done, sort the soiled washing, prepare the next wash, retrieve the previously dried washing, get it ironed, get himself bathed, fall into bed, get up and start all over again. He gave it a good go mind, but we quickly learned how to change our bed linen weekly, how to sort soiled washing into hot washes, colour fast washes, dark clothing washes. I took it to the launderette, my two small sisters dried and ironed it and our even smaller brother vacuumed, dusted and put away the freshly ironed laundry. In other words, we grew up. All of us took those childhood skills and experiences into our marriages. 

Those experiences have taught me that it doesn't happen, someone makes it happen. Why should that someone always be mother? It might sound trivial but I think it's relevant, before I put my underpants in the laundry basket I always check that there's nothing there that would disgust me if I had to sort someone else's laundry. That's what sibling squabbling taught me about: "You did it, you clean it."
Such an attitude goes for everything else.


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## hollydolly (Apr 12, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Well said Marg. Reflecting on my earlier post about my Mother's premature death, what I experienced in the aftermath, as did my siblings, is that my Father couldn't physically go to work, come home, cook a meal, make sure our homework was done, get us off to bed. Get the vacuum out, clean the place, make sure that the dusting was done, sort the soiled washing, prepare the next wash, retrieve the previously dried washing, get it ironed, get himself bathed, fall into bed, get up and start all over again. He gave it a good go mind, but we quickly learned how to change our bed linen weekly, how to sort soiled washing into hot washes, colour fast washes, dark clothing washes. I took it to the launderette, my two small sisters dried and ironed it and our even smaller brother vacuumed, dusted and put away the freshly ironed laundry. In other words, we grew up. All of us took those childhood skills and experiences into our marriages.
> 
> Those experiences have taught me that it doesn't happen, someone makes it happen. Why should that someone always be mother? It might sound trivial but I think it's relevant, before I put my underpants in the laundry basket I always check that there's nothing there that would disgust me if I had to sort someone else's laundry. That's what sibling squabbling taught me about: "You did it, you clean it."
> Such an attitude goes for everything else.


My mother also died in her 30's...I was given the job of looking after all my siblings, the youngest only 10 , while my father worked full time...


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## Gaer (Apr 12, 2021)

DaveA said:


> That's a nice thought if you can confine it to just the two of you.
> 
> Not so nice when you think about the children who suffer the consequences or do we tell the kids to start banging away as soon as they're old enough because marriage and commitment are a thing of the past.  Grab the most attractive girl or guy, have a good time and cast them aside when someone better comes into view.
> 
> You are probably correct as to the direction in which life is heading but for sake of our kids, I can't see myself wishing to hurry it along.


Excellent point.  No, it's not what iwould have hoped forthisworld, but alas, maybe it's where the world is heading.


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## horseless carriage (Apr 12, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> My mother also died in her 30's...I was given the job of looking after all my siblings, the youngest only 10 , while my father worked full time...


holly, from day one there was something about your postings that I empathised with, your relating the death of your Mother in her 30's came as an eye opener. I'm so grateful to you for sharing that, much appreciated.


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## fmdog44 (Apr 12, 2021)

My folks dated for six years before they married and according to my dad and there was no nookie in those six years six l-o-n-g years.


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## bowmore (Apr 12, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I have been learning over the years how to be her caretaker, which has included learning from the nurse that would visit her at home to change dressings and drainage bulbs, how to do it myself so the nurse didn't have to be there.
> 
> So we have been living up to our vows, have no plans to stop doing that.
> 
> Tony


Bless you, Tony for being her caregiver. I was caregiver for my wife for 12 years until she passed away.


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## tbeltrans (Apr 12, 2021)

bowmore said:


> Bless you, Tony for being her caregiver. I was caregiver for my wife for 12 years until she passed away.


Thank you, Bowmore!

Tony


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## jujube (Apr 12, 2021)

My parents got divorced when I was 35.  Usually, it's the guy who has the mid-life crisis and wants something more exciting, but this time it was my mother who headed for "greener pastures", which didn't turn out to be all _that _green after all.

They remarried 2 1/2 years later and we all just sort of pretended that that period of unpleasantness never happened. 

As for divorce in the really old days......I'm not sure the "ordinary people" really bothered with getting divorced.  The rich ones had to because they were in the limelight.  My great-grandfather took off, reportedly to become a Mormon, leaving my great-grandmother with two children and a bun in the oven (my grandmother).  When my grandmother was three months old, she married a widower who lived down the street from her sister's house and he raised my grandmother as his own daughter.  According to family lore, no divorce was legally obtained.


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## grahamg (Apr 12, 2021)

DaveA said:


> That's a nice thought if you can confine it to just the two of you.
> Not so nice when you think about the children who suffer the consequences or do we tell the kids to start banging away as soon as they're old enough because marriage and commitment are a thing of the past.  Grab the most attractive girl or guy, have a good time and cast them aside when someone better comes into view. You are probably correct as to the direction in which life is heading but for sake of our kids, I can't see myself wishing to hurry it along.


You've saved my entering the fray on this thread, (gasps of relief all round!).


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## Rosemarie (Apr 12, 2021)

In pagan times, a couple went through a ceremony binding them together. A year later, they had the choice of renewing their bond or splitting up. That happened every year. If they decided to split, the children stayed with the mother but the father was responsible for their welfare. There was no shame in a woman having several children, each with a different father.


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## hollydolly (Apr 13, 2021)

My grandmother divorced from my grandfather before I was born and I ended up with 2 grandfathers on my paternal side when my granny 'married' the second one,and took his name., and had her last child with him...... I got on with grandfathers although none of them particularly keen on kids .
Wasn't until my granny died in the early 80's.and my second granddad long gone,  I discovered she wasn't married to the second one, and had never divorced the first one..


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## Jules (Apr 13, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> discovered she wasn't married to the second one, and had never divorced the first one..


Good for her for keeping this info away from the neighbourhood.  It wouldn’t have been easy for her if she hadn’t.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 13, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Well said Marg. Reflecting on my earlier post about my Mother's premature death, what I experienced in the aftermath, as did my siblings, is that my Father couldn't physically go to work, come home, cook a meal, make sure our homework was done, get us off to bed. Get the vacuum out, clean the place, make sure that the dusting was done, sort the soiled washing, prepare the next wash, retrieve the previously dried washing, get it ironed, get himself bathed, fall into bed, get up and start all over again. He gave it a good go mind, but we quickly learned how to change our bed linen weekly, how to sort soiled washing into hot washes, colour fast washes, dark clothing washes. I took it to the launderette, my two small sisters dried and ironed it and our even smaller brother vacuumed, dusted and put away the freshly ironed laundry. In other words, we grew up. All of us took those childhood skills and experiences into our marriages.
> 
> Those experiences have taught me that it doesn't happen, someone makes it happen. Why should that someone always be mother? It might sound trivial but I think it's relevant, before I put my underpants in the laundry basket I always check that there's nothing there that would disgust me if I had to sort someone else's laundry. That's what sibling squabbling taught me about: "You did it, you clean it."
> Such an attitude goes for everything else.


You sum up exactly how it was in my childhood home, though I was fortunate enough to be graced with two parents, however, with my dad always working, which included out of town, it was my mom who was always at home with us kids, and being the oldest, the list was long and distinguished as to what I did from day-to-day to help pitch-in and make my moms job a little easier.

I remember it so well... the separating of washables. Mom had three baskets ready and waiting (always) in the laundry room, and she taught us all about sorting.

There was five of us kids, and even my baby siblings were given little jobs and tasks to do, like cleaning up their toys off the floor when they were done playing. As for myself, I was my moms second set of hands, helping with my baby siblings and housework all the time.

I babysat regularly, and even when my mom was home I prepared bottles... homemade baby food and formula in our house, changed diapers, and my mom didn't use Pampers, did laundry (including hanging it on the clothesline), helped with meals, did ironing, shopping, yard-work, and the list went on. Nothing was off the table.

Fast-forward to when I got married, I took all of those life experiences and applied them accordingly in my own home. My husband, having been raised traditionally, entered marriage having never before boiled a pot of water, need alone stripped a bed or washed a load of laundry, but in my eyes that was my job and I took it seriously.

One distinct difference I notice in marriages today, is the women (not all, but many) enter marriage ill-prepared, however, back in the day (back in my day), girls were taught how to do this and how to do that by their moms, grandmas, aunts, older sisters, etc, and IMO that set the stage for a more stable and well-rounded union between husband and wife, with most women being fulltime stay-at-home housewives and mothers at the time.

I could nitter-natter on and on about this, because topics like these are my favourite, but what I see nowadays with young couples, is the holding of each others hands, because neither really or truly knows their place in the marriage, meaning what to do (or how to do it), hence the expectations I hear about today where married women not only expect their husbands to work, but they want their husbands to come home and help with the housework, childcare, cooking, etc, and that's coming from women who are at home all day long (fulltime).

I refer to it as _broken values_, and it's prevalent today.


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## Lethe200 (Apr 13, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Materialism, a trophy (significant other wrapped around arm), money, status.


A "trophy wife" is most certainly not a modern idea. It has been around for as long as marriage has existed. For most of history a woman's worth was based on her looks, her ability to birth sons, and/or her dowry. Brains optional, usually.

My parents divorced in 1962 when I was a kid, and I was incredibly happy about it. They were an ill-matched couple who married because both had children from a first marriage. In those days people thought, "Oh, you must get married again for the sake of your children! Whatever will they do without a mother (or father, as the case may be)?!?!?"

When my sister divorced her husband in the late '80's, they shared joint custody. They get along better now than when they were married. They never dissed one another, never played guilt/power games over the kids. Now their kids are grown, married, with their own kids, and successful in careers and families. My ex-BIL is one of our best friends and is an integral part of our primary family circle.

I've been with the same spouse for 47 yrs. We're best friends, lovers, and daily companions. No complaints here.


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 13, 2021)

Lethe200 said:


> *A "trophy wife" is most certainly not a modern idea. It has been around for as long as marriage has existed.* For most of history a woman's worth was based on her looks, her ability to birth sons, and/or her dowry. Brains optional, usually.
> 
> My parents divorced in 1962 when I was a kid, and I was incredibly happy about it. They were an ill-matched couple who married because both had children from a first marriage. In those days people thought, "Oh, you must get married again for the sake of your children! Whatever will they do without a mother (or father, as the case may be)?!?!?"
> 
> ...


Wile I agree with your opening, I do believe with all my might that trophy spouses have become the way of the day, whereas with couples in the past, marriage was more real, today most everything is artificial, people included.


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## mellowyellow (Apr 13, 2021)

IMO physical appearance is now the most important factor in choosing a partner for both men and women today. The experts tell us the partner we choose reflects our own self-esteem so in other words, if they are not beautiful to look at, you are a dead-set loser.   If this is true, how many good men and women are left on the shelf because they just couldn't measure up?


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## Aunt Marg (Apr 13, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> IMO physical appearance is now the most importance factor in choosing a partner for both men and women today. The experts tell us the partner we choose reflects our own self-esteem so in other words, if they are not beautiful to look at, you are a dead-set loser.   If this is true, how many good men and women are left on the shelf because they just couldn't measure up?


I couldn't agree more.

As for those who didn't measure up, my guess is untold numbers.

Money and looks is everything today.


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## Ladybj (Apr 13, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> It is a rather odd thing to say marriage vows that include "let no man tear asunder", "in sickness and health", and "unto death do us part" ... and then say "not really" or "I didn't REALLY mean all that" as a divorce commences.  The part that I think should be changed is the vows portion.  There can be practical reasons to get a divorce and for each situation it is different and difficult for us, on the outside looking in, to judge.  So maybe the vows should be something along the lines of "we will give it our best effort...".
> 
> Tony


I agree.  If a woman is being abused daily - it that the "worst' and she should stay?  Also, some men take "unto death do us part" to the extreme.


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## fuzzybuddy (Apr 15, 2021)

Way back in the late 1930s, my dad divorced his wife. She was an alcoholic. Not only was divorce rare, my dad as a single male parent was not allowed  full custody of his kids. Granted my dad was about 19-20, at the time, but there would be no custody question , if he were female. He could only get his kids back when he remarried.


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## grahamg (Apr 15, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Way back in the late 1930s, my dad divorced his wife. She was an alcoholic. Not only was divorce rare, my dad as a single male parent was not allowed  full custody of his kids. Granted my dad was about 19-20, at the time, but there would be no custody question , if he were female. He could only get his kids back when he remarried.


In the 1930s at least up until WWII our divorce laws favoured the fathers, at least over a wife committing adultery, (so far as who was permitted custody of any children goes), and this probably reflected public opinion on this kind of behaviour.


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