# Here I go again, grieving over my problems with my son.



## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

By now, one would think I would have accepted that I just can’t fix this. For whatever reason, my son has issues when it comes to his mother. Do I have a clue what they are? Not really. Does he? I have my doubts. Regardless, I choose distance over being complicit in a relationship which lacks compassion, no matter how pleasant he can be on other fronts. But, oh, it hurts. He is the only family I have. He has told me more than once I am the most loving and supportive person he has ever met. Ok, why isn’t that enough?


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

Is there a place for some back story?


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## Sassycakes (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> By now, one would think I would have accepted that I just can’t fix this. For whatever reason, my son has issues when it comes to his mother. Do I have a clue what they are? Not really. Does he? I have my doubts. Regardless, I choose distance over being complicit in a relationship which lacks compassion, no matter how pleasant he can be on other fronts. But, oh, it hurts. He is the only family I have. He has told me more than once I am the most loving and supportive person he has ever met. Ok, why isn’t that enough?



*I'm sorry to hear you are going through all this now. I'm in a similar situation with my son. He is annoyed with me because I still have a connection with his ex-wife. I will never hurt her because of my 2 grandsons.*
*My son won't answer my calls or speak to me in any way. It breaks my heart but there isn't anything I can do to change things.*


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

I am so sorry Sassycakes. Thank you for your kind words. I hope your son will realise that this is not the way to handle things. Hugs


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Is there a place for some back story?


My son and I have had a difficult relationship for many years. He was very judgemental toward me, every infraction, real or imagined was magnified into a massive offence. As my therapist put it, “guilty bitch, how do you plead?” All focus was on the negative aspects of my behaviour as he saw them.

It was rather like being a recalcitrant daughter, regularly summoned to the library by a stern
Victorian father. He told me I had forfeited all emotional support and compassion while he was a teenager. Twice, when I was very poor, I asked him for food and was refused. Time passed, when I

could, I helped he and his wife with university and living expenses. He praised my generosity. Things appeared somewhat better, we fought seldom, until he repeated his same stance on lack of compassion. I broke down. It took two years for me to recover. Several years later, after on again

off again contact, I gave up, let go. Folded my tent and slipped away. I would not talk to him for eighteen months, although he tried repeatedly. Finally, when it seemed he had some understanding  of my point of view around how disrespected I felt, we began to talk again. It seemed as if he was really trying, he told me he loved me with all his heart, but I remained wary. Good thing, it wasn’t long before the lack of compassion reared its head again. I politely told him how I felt, and retreated.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 7, 2020)

It’s hard with children.  You hope when they become adults they will view their parents more as human beings, instead a lot of times, it seems that they are still like baby birds always expecting more and more, always blaming, always judging.  It’s so hard.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> It’s hard with children.  You hope when they become adults they will view their parents more as human beings, instead a lot of times, it seems that they are still like baby birds always expecting more and more, always blaming, always judging.  It’s so hard.


Yes, it is. I spent almost twenty years doing my utmost to raise a strong, healthy, confident, comfortable with his emotions, and principled son, who was not broken like his mother. I succeeded. We are very much alike in many ways, but he is comfortable in his own skin, which I will never be.


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

*Warm hug* Sometimes our perceptions of what is happening isn't always how things are. I used to blame my mother for a lot of my grief. Later I understood why she was the way she was. I don't think any mother should have to tolerate that kind of emotional abuse though. I'm sure it's not easy to entertain any ideas of walking away from your own child. I'm sorry he continues to hurt you.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Marci, thanks so much


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Marci, thanks so much


I just wish I had some idea how to help you. It's hard when you're hurting.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I just wish I had some idea how to help you. It's hard when you're hurting.


You are a jewel. It helps so much knowing that people care, that I am not just stuck inside my head wondering why things are the way they are. After decades of being the family sin eater, first for the older generation, and later my son,  I learned to walk away. Healthy, but isolating. Your kindness soothes more than u know.


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## AnnieA (Nov 7, 2020)

So sorry to see this.  Know you know from your line of work that grief comes in waves.  So glad you have your own therapist to turn to and a place like this to share your pain.


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> You are a jewel. It helps so much knowing that people care, that I am not just stuck inside my head wondering why things are the way they are. After decades of being the family sin eater, first for the older generation, and later my son,  I learned to walk away. Healthy, but isolating. Your kindness soothes more than u know.


That's my main goal in life. To be soothing. It doesn't always work out. But I try.


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## jujube (Nov 7, 2020)

We do our best with them and then what happens after that often is out of our hands.


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## PopsnTuff (Nov 7, 2020)

So glad to hear you still see your therapist @Shalimar cuz lots of folks need their support and suggestions for a long time....have a handful of friends that do.....you can only go to that half way point with any relationship and try not to cross over, where the other one is stealing your energy, jmo....I gave up friendships that became like this, but when it's family, I'm sure its even harder and more painful.....thinking of you kindly with this ongoing situation with your son.....my relationship with my older son is no picnic for me either, and he lives with me! oye vay.....


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Thanks so much everyone, your thoughtful words really help.


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## Knight (Nov 7, 2020)

Not easy for everyone to do. I mean by that if I have no way to control the situation I let it go. Letting it go can generate doubts but until any doubt is proven one way or the other I put whatever on a back burner. I estimate 99.99% of the time I was right to let it go.


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## Warrigal (Nov 7, 2020)

I have nothing useful to offer other than my admiration for you, Shali. It appears to me that you have eaten too many sins of others and if I were a priest I would say to you "Child of a loving God, your sins are all forgiven, go in peace. Eat no more bitter fruit."

I am sure you are familiar with the Serenity Prayer. It contains both wisdom and a way forward. I cannot recommend it enough. 

I am wrapping you in my love, hoping it will give you strength when you need it.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> I have nothing useful to offer other than my admiration for you, Shali. It appears to me that you have eaten too many sins of others and if I were a priest I would say to you "Child of a loving God, your sins are all forgiven, go in peace. Eat no more bitter fruit."
> 
> I am sure you are familiar with the Serenity Prayer. It contains both wisdom and a way forward. I cannot recommend it enough.
> 
> I am wrapping you in my love, hoping it will give you strength when you need it.


Ohhh, Warri, you touch my heart. As always, you provide clarity and kindness. I shall use your love as a touchstone when the pain threatens to overwhelm me.


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## Phoenix (Nov 7, 2020)

My husband has had numerous problems with his two daughters.  He's one of the best fathers a kid could ask for.  As his kids were growing up all their friends loved him, wanted him to be their father.  His daughters could not be trusted to tell the truth.  They stole from him.  They lied to and about him.  They tried to manipulate him.  The list is long.  There came a time when they broke that last straw.  The problems in the relationship was of their making not his.  I've mentioned this before.  What I'm saying is that often kids, even those who should have grown up by now, don't.  There are many reasons.  I've seen the way it has hurt him.   I'm sure, Shali, what your son has done has hurt you just as much.  It's wrenching.  Just know you are a good soul, one of high value, always.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> My husband has had numerous problems with his two daughters.  He's one of the best fathers a kid could ask for.  As his kids were growing up all their friends loved him, wanted him to be their father.  His daughters could not be trusted to tell the truth.  They stole from him.  They lied to and about him.  They tried to manipulate him.  The list is long.  There came a time when they broke that last straw.  The problems in the relationship was of their making not his.  I've mentioned this before.  What I'm saying is that often kids, even those who should have grown up by now, don't.  There are many reasons.  I've seen the way it has hurt him.   I'm sure, Shali, what your son has done has hurt you just as much.  It's wrenching.  Just know you are a good soul, one of high value, always.


Thanks my friend.


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## Butterfly (Nov 7, 2020)

Shali, I am so sorry you are going thru this all again.  I would have had to let go, too, for my own mental health.  We just have to do the best we can -- that's all we can do.  I'll  hold you in my heart.


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## grahamg (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> By now, one would think I would have accepted that I just can’t fix this. For whatever reason, my son has issues when it comes to his mother. Do I have a clue what they are? Not really. Does he? I have my doubts. Regardless, I choose distance over being complicit in a relationship which lacks compassion, no matter how pleasant he can be on other fronts. But, oh, it hurts. He is the only family I have. He has told me more than once I am the most loving and supportive person he has ever met. Ok, why isn’t that enough?


I once listened to a woman describe the sort of mother she had been to her three daughter, and I totally believed her when she said she'd been an excellent mother, and yet aged about thirty, one of these three daughters had distanced herself from her mother, when she had her first child.

My guess would be, and its only a guess, (and I didn't get to tell the mother of three my thought), was this daughter felt the need to distance herself simply because her mother was so good a mum, and she'd have felt inadequate by comparison whilst trying to do her best for her own new baby/child.

Odd to think there might be fault, or a problem with being an outstanding mother, but there may be if the child feels slightly intimidated she can't emulate her, or reach her level, but must nonetheless gain confidence in whatever mothering skills she has, (there was another aspect involving this daughter having more to do with her dad, as she moved away from contact with her mother, but I don't think it was the cause of the trouble, and the excellent mother/grandmother didn't claim this either).


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

Sometimes in life no matter what our hearts want...we have to let go of people we don't want to let go of in order to keep our sanity and have a fruitful life. It's sad...some kids have really good parents and they treat them like crap later on. Then there's other kids who have no parents and could use the love and there's none to receive. 

I love my parents more than anything. They're the only friends I've ever truly had. But sometimes they mock me or say terrible things that remind me of the verbal abuse I received as a child. I've had to take a step back from them. Especially right now. My father has been being rather unreasonable and free with his remarks. Doesn't care who he upsets. We have to do what we have to do to survive.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Shali, I am so sorry you are going thru this all again.  I would have had to let go, too, for my own mental health.  We just have to do the best we can -- that's all we can do.  I'll  hold you in my heart.


Thanks so much, my friend.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> Sometimes in life no matter what our hearts want...we have to let go of people we don't want to let go of in order to keep our sanity and have a fruitful life. It's sad...some kids have really good parents and they treat them like crap later on. Then there's other kids who have no parents and could use the love and there's none to receive.
> 
> I love my parents more than anything. They're the only friends I've ever truly had. But sometimes they mock me or say terrible things that remind me of the verbal abuse I received as a child. I've had to take a step back from them. Especially right now. My father has been being rather unreasonable and free with his remarks. Doesn't care who he upsets. We have to do what we have to do to survive.


So true. I am sorry you are going through this. Hugs


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## Ruthanne (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar I have no human kids but am no stranger to hurt and pain.  I'm sorry it's been so rough dealing with your son.  I admire you for doing what you need to to protect your heart.  Hugs to you.


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## MarciKS (Nov 7, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> So true. I am sorry you are going through this. Hugs


Just hang in there lady. It will be ok.


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## peramangkelder (Nov 7, 2020)

Let me tell you that you guys and gals are not alone I too grieve for the loss of contact with my 2
No easy way around it is there? Something will happen and my mind goes back to when they were babies
Then reality kicks in and I realise I will probably never have contact with them again
They are only waiting to benefit from my Last Will and Testament...they are in for a big surprise
'How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child'
I am estranged from my daughter and my son and I am not now nor ever have been a terrible mother
I have tried to contact them many many times but with no success so I don't even try now


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> Shalimar I have no human kids but am no stranger to hurt and pain.  I'm sorry it's been so rough dealing with your son.  I admire you for doing what you need to to protect your heart.  Hugs to you.


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> Let me tell you that you guys and gals are not alone I too grieve for the loss of contact with my 2
> No easy way around it is there? Something will happen and my mind goes back to when they were babies
> Then reality kicks in and I realise I will probably never have contact with them again
> They are only waiting to benefit from my Last Will and Testament...they are in for a big surprise
> ...


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## Shalimar (Nov 7, 2020)

I am so sorry, how painful for you.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 8, 2020)

peramangkelder said:


> Let me tell you that you guys and gals are not alone I too grieve for the loss of contact with my 2
> No easy way around it is there? Something will happen and my mind goes back to when they were babies
> Then reality kicks in and I realise I will probably never have contact with them again
> They are only waiting to benefit from my Last Will and Testament...they are in for a big surprise
> ...


I am so sorry you have these issues.  When my daughter told us she was moving away, two weeks before she did, I was crushed.  I have always had to be very careful in what I say to her or I would be in the same position others are.

If I unknowingly make a criticism, that I did not realize was a criticism, she will not text me for a couple of weeks.  Which is how I know I I said some thing wrong but have no clue what it was. I tell myself she forgot my birthday this year for the first time.  

But I am lying to myself.  I know she didn’t forget.  I know she decided I said something she didn’t like, and therefore, I must be “punished”.  She is very much like her father.  I sometimes pay a big price for continued contact so I understand what you are saying.


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## Pinky (Nov 8, 2020)

@Shalimar -  I hope your son will one day soon realize what he is going to regret pushing away. 

It is not equivalent to your situation, but, I went through a decade of estrangement from one of my sisters (my choice). We are now close again.

Sometimes, people just need to mature.


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

Pinky said:


> @Shalimar -  I hope your son will one day soon realize what he is going to regret pushing away.
> 
> It is not equivalent to your situation, but, I went through a decade of estrangement from one of my sisters (my choice). We are now close again.
> 
> Sometimes, people just need to mature.


Thanks Pinky, I hope you are right. Pleased to hear you and your sister are close again.


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## Ronni (Nov 8, 2020)

Oh honey!!  I am so sorry.    I didn't know you were struggling with this issue with your son!  That really sucks.  

I've never been estranged from any of my kids...well other than my son who's a recovering addict and he disappeared for a few months and I didn't know if he was alive or dead...that was hard.  But still, the estrangement was by MY hand because I realized how much I was enabling him, which was hindering his recover.  But that was an entirely different circumstance that what you're dealing with.  I can imagine how much it must hurt.  

I hope you don't mind me asking....does your son have mental issues?  Bipolar, major depressive disorder, other personality disorders? They can produce this kind of hot/cold swing.  

I know you know that you can't control his swings.  From everything you've said here, it's obvious that YOU aren't doing anything one way or the other to cause him to flip.  He just does, for reasons that you don't know, and you have zero control over that.

I think as parents we sometimes tend to contort ourselves into the strangest, weirdest pretzel shapes mentally in order to make ourselves responsible for our kids' behavior.  I mean it makes a weird kind of sense....if we can be responsible for their behavior, then we can CHANGE their behavior by changing ourselves.  It's so sad that it doesn't work that way.   Do you know if your son has problems with other interpersonal relationships?

I'm really glad to read that you protect yourself by distancing, when he flips.  That's really important for you.  Hard as it is, it's still the healthiest response you can have under the circumstances.  

My heart goes out to you. Sending you an abundance of love and light.


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Oh honey!!  I am so sorry.    I didn't know you were struggling with this issue with your son!  That really sucks.
> 
> I've never been estranged from any of my kids...well other than my son who's a recovering addict and he disappeared for a few months and I didn't know if he was alive or dead...that was hard.  But still, the estrangement was by MY hand because I realized how much I was enabling him, which was hindering his recover.  But that was an entirely different circumstance that what you're dealing with.  I can imagine how much it must hurt.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the love, my friend.  Fortunately, my son is not mentally ill. He also has excellent people skills, very charismatic, many friends,  and has been with the  same woman for

over fifteen yrs, twelve of them married. He works for the govt in Emergency Services where he must exude a calm demeanour at all times, while thinking on his feet.  He doesn’t seem to have any problem with anyone other than me. His father, Peter Pan, who has many problems, and I kicked to the curb when my son was seven, is treated much differently. Odd considering he didn’t pay child support, left me to do

ninety percent of the parenting, and later was involved in domestic violence. My son thanked me for leaving his dad, and protecting him from the violence which showed up in some of his father‘s subsequent relationships. He even did a short stint in jail for such when he was about fifty. Yet, my

son felt he wasn’t really a criminal?? My son doesn’t have mood swings. He is emotional, as am I, but well within the norm. He is averse to apologies,

somewhat arrogant, very stubborn. He tends to think he has the answers without actually hearing the questions. We no longer fight, things were pleasant, however, I refuse to participate in a

relationship which still lacks compassion. However reasonable he seemed to have become in other ways, that is the bottom line for me. Love is about, respect, trust, compassion, not heartbreak.  He can wallow in being right, according to his lights. I choose peace and self respect at whatever the cost. No one controls the narrative of my life


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## tishakage (Nov 8, 2020)

I am sorry for the situation you are going through, I am getting married in February and the thought of a son or a daughter is equally scary. I have a lot to learn.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 8, 2020)

tishakage said:


> I am sorry for the situation you are going through, I am getting married in February and the thought of a son or a daughter is equally scary. I have a lot to learn.


Wrong place


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

tishakage said:


> I am sorry for the situation you are going through, I am getting married in February and the thought of a son or a daughter is equally scary. I have a lot to learn.


Thanks for the kind words. Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! Of course you feel scared, only natural, but my relationship with my son is long-standing, the problems going back over fifteen years. No reason to think your experience would mirror my own. I wish you the very best in your new life.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 8, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Thanks so much for the love, my friend.  Fortunately, my son is not mentally ill. He also has excellent people skills, very charismatic, many friends,  and has been with the  same woman for
> 
> over fifteen yrs, twelve of them married. He works for the govt in Emergency Services where he must exude a calm demeanour at all times, while thinking on his feet.  He doesn’t seem to have any problem with anyone other than me. His father, Peter Pan, who has many problems, and I kicked to the curb when my son was seven, is treated much differently. Odd considering he didn’t pay child support, left me to do
> 
> ...


I never told my son about how horrific my marriage was to his bio father or his abuse towards me and him.  Still haven’t.  Married, moved to where my husband lived, next door to the state my ex husband lived in.    Ex husband took me to court to gain visitation with my son, and visitation was granted.  My son was, hmm, 2 or 3 at the time.

We quit both our jobs, and fled before the court papers were finalized.  A warrant was issued, and the police went to his relatives houses in an attempt to locate us.  They missed us by one hour.  
The ex divorced that wife, remarried, and caught up to us in my home state.

Took us to court, got visitation, also had to pay 15 dollar a month in child support..  My son was abused during theses visits.  Due to the expense, he let my husband adopt my son.  Fast forward, my son, an adult seeks out his bio father.  .  He thinks his father will want to know him.  He learned different.

For some strange reason, a lot of adults, even freed as children from toxic adults, still want to know their child abusing biological parents.  It is so sad.  (Sorry for the long explanation).  It seems, @Shalimar, none of us can avoid this.


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I never told my son about how horrific my marriage was to his bio father or his abuse towards me and him.  Still haven’t.  Married, moved to where my husband lived, next door to the state my ex husband lived in.    Ex husband took me to court to gain visitation with my son, and visitation was granted.  My son was, hmm, 2 or 3 at the time.
> 
> We quit both our jobs, and fled before the court papers were finalized.  A warrant was issued, and the police went to his relatives houses in an attempt to locate us.  They missed us by one hour.
> The ex divorced that wife, remarried, and caught up to us in my home state.
> ...


Oh, my dear, I am so sorry you went through this. 
My son was never abused by his dad. My son asked me why his dad had never abused him. I replied, because I would have killed him. (Actually, my vets would have made him disappear.)


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 8, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Oh, my dear, I am so sorry you went through this.
> My son was never abused by his dad. My son asked me why his dad had never abused him. I replied, because I would have killed him. (Actually, my vets would have made him disappear.)


Thanks.

My current husband is very good with children and was an excellent father to my son.  When my son had open heart surgery last year and thought he was going to die (which he almost did), he told my husband, his adoptive father, he never thought of his bio father as dad.  The other guy was always just his bio father.


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> My current husband is very good with children and was an excellent father to my son.  When my son had open heart surgery last year and thought he was going to die (which he almost did), he told my husband, his adoptive father, he never thought of his bio father as dad.  The other guy was always just his bio father.


Ohhhh, how wonderful. Also, thank goodness your son survived


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## Jules (Nov 8, 2020)

These are very difficult times for you Shalimar.  Although I have no advice, I’m wishing you the best.


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## Shalimar (Nov 8, 2020)

Jules said:


> These are very difficult times for you Shalimar.  Although I have no advice, I’m wishing you the best.


Thanks so much Jules


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## Phoenix (Nov 8, 2020)

Mindfulness is said to protect the mind from the intrusion of unwanted elements—whether they be from the senses or from thoughts—like a guard at the door.

—Robert E. Buswell, Jr. and Donald S. Lopez Jr.


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## WhatInThe (Nov 9, 2020)

Sounds like someone is influencing him. For what ever reason he listens to them.I've seen certain peer groups change family members Has his or wifes peer group changed? And I've seen attitude get worse as people age. I'm surprised you helping him with school as a young adult, your relatonship and parental contributions increased as he aged. I'd say there's a new variable here.

You helped get him through school and is now in a highly respectable productive job. That's all a parent can ask and help do for their child. He can fend for himself AND society at the sametime. Always keep that in mind.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 9, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> Sounds like someone is influencing him. For what ever reason he listens to them.I've seen certain peer groups change family members Has his or wifes peer group changed? And I've seen attitude get worse as people age. I'm surprised you helping him with school as a young adult, your relatonship and parental contributions increased as he aged. I'd say there's a new variable here.
> 
> You helped get him through school and is now in a highly respectable productive job. That's all a parent can ask and help do for their child. He can fend for himself AND society at the sametime. Always keep that in mind.


What?  Maybe I have misunderstood what you mean by “that’s all a parent can ask for”.  All a parent can ask for is that their child be happy.  A highly respectable productive job-what is that?
A janitor has a highly respectable productive necessary job.  A pimp does not.

As for helping adult children in school or later in life, we help our children as needed till we die or they reject our help. It might be money, emotional support, physical support whatever however we can we help, we help.  What new “variable” are you talking about.

Children change and grow.  Relationships ebb and flow.  Helping might take the form of tough love, which is very tough for parents and necessary for some adult children or even some parents. But, whatever, we choose to do towards our children, it should be done out of unconditional love, not anger.  Out of our survival and theirs.  This is the human condition.


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## Ronni (Nov 10, 2020)

> Children change and grow.  Relationships ebb and flow.  Helping might take the form of tough love, which is very tough for parents and necessary for some adult children or even some parents. But, whatever, we choose to do towards our children, it should be done out of unconditional love, not anger.  Out of our survival and theirs.  This is the human condition.



Well said.  

I've had to make some very tough choices regarding my recovering addict son.  I never loved him less, but distancing myself became necessary more than once.  

How are you doing this morning @Shalimar?  

I admire your determination to maintain your boundaries, to not be disrespected, and to detach when necessary.  I know first hand how difficult that is....and for me, it's so much harder with my children than any other interpersonal relationship.  

_"He is averse to apologies,somewhat arrogant, very stubborn. He tends to think he has the answers without actually hearing the questions. We no longer fight, things were pleasant, however, I refuse to participate in a relationship which still lacks compassion. However reasonable he seemed to have become in other ways, that is the bottom line for me. Love is about, respect, trust, compassion, not heartbreak. He can wallow in being right, according to his lights. I choose peace and self respect at whatever the cost. No one controls the narrative of my life_ "

I find your description of your son fascinating.  There are aspects to your description that remind me of a situation I had with someone who has since become a friend, but at the outset she seemed arrogant, almost rude, prickly etc.  A fellow dancer, she was barely an acquaintance so it didn't trouble me overly much.  But we saw each other in a group setting at least once a week, if not more often.  As time went on, she thawed a bit, but not much.  I had occasion to work with her...she needed some coaching on technique and styling for a dance she was doing for a showcase, and she had thawed considerably by the end of that coaching session.

.........and you didn't need to know all that!   Me and my motormouth!!  Anyway, it finally came out, once she felt safe enough to tell me, that she had felt very intimidated by me and so was defensive before she ever actually KNEW me!  I hadn't done a damn thing except be myself!

I'm sure you'd have known long since if he felt intimidated by you, but I wanted to mention it anyway, just in case.  I am hearing how it's impacted you, but because I'm not IN the situation I can also look at your son's behavior from HIS perspective, and what might be motivating him to behave the way he does.  And I also may be full of you know what!  but some of what you mention sounds like defensive behavior rather than a personal attack...if that makes sense.  IOW his behavior is WAY more about him and whatever demons he's battling than it is about anything you've done TO him.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Well said.
> 
> I've had to make some very tough choices regarding my recovering addict son.  I never loved him less, but distancing myself became necessary more than once.
> 
> ...


I don’t have no clue as to what you are talking about, and I am confused.  Are you saying your son became a drug addict because he was intimidated by you and/or you did something to him?  

I have no ideal why anyone would become a drug addict except to alleviate physical pain.  As soon as medical marijuana becomes available here, I am going to try it.  My kids have been after me for years to do so.

I think saying mommy and daddy were mean to me so I take drugs is a total load of crap.  My stupid adopted granddaughter was given the world on a silver platter.  She totally threw her life away when she was given marijuana at a college party.

She was given a free totally completely free college education, housing and food included.  She preferred marijuana.  Now, at the age of 22, she sits in a homeless shelter in Colorado where she can get her marijuana.  Has nothing to do with any of her parents bio or adopted.  She made her choice.


----------



## WhatInThe (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> What?  Maybe I have misunderstood what you mean by “that’s all a parent can ask for”.  All a parent can ask for is that their child be happy.  A highly respectable productive job-what is that?
> A janitor has a highly respectable productive necessary job.  A pimp does not.
> 
> As for helping adult children in school or later in life, we help our children as needed till we die or they reject our help. It might be money, emotional support, physical support whatever however we can we help, we help.  What new “variable” are you talking about.
> ...


Her son grew up to be self sufficient and high functioning member of society. Self sufficient being the key and actually the primary purpose of a parent-to raise their children. She did her job with flying colors.

And since the status of their relationship changed later in life I think, my opinion there is a new person in his life even if a co worker, neighbor etc that is influencing him. I will say as an adult once one has had time to reflect, put things in perspective with gained/new knowledge and experience that will influence that reflection. A new person in combination with life experiences and knowledge could sway an opinion even if indirectly or unintentionally

The worst parent-child dispute I witnessed were two adults over 50 with gray hair both acting out of character. The 'child' just changed peer groups after going through a break-up. Their attitude changed towards everyone in the family let alone their parent. I also have an alkie family member where were basically done forever, Their behavior has gotten worse, escalated,changed etc and I'm not just talking about intoxication. But their peer group changed over the last several years as well not they necessarily hung with the greatest role models.


Adults will be able to look at a relationship much differently than a child because of knowledge and experience. But that doesn't mean they won't contort, misinterpret or abuse it.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> Her son grew up to be self sufficient and high functioning member of society. Self sufficient being the key and actually the primary purpose of a parent-to raise their children. She did her job with flying colors.
> 
> And since the status of their relationship changed later in life I think, my opinion there is a new person in his life even if a co worker, neighbor etc that is influencing him. I will say as an adult once one has had time to reflect, put things in perspective with gained/new knowledge and experience that will influence that reflection. A new person in combination with life experiences and knowledge could sway an opinion even if indirectly or unintentionally
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what you said and disagree with some of what you said.  The major disagreement I have is “self sufficient being the key”.  The key to what?  Plus, define self sufficient.  

I have two disabled sons that I raised the same as my two what you might consider to be ”self sufficient” children.  My ”self sufficient” children are extremely independent .  Over the years they have had a cycle of disliking me and liking me.  Distancing themselves from me, and becoming close again, only to repeat the pattern endlessly.  Influenced, somewhat, by who they were with or not.  Idk.

Yet, when my extremely independent self sufficient I am smarter than you will ever be son had a serious heart issue one day, which resulted in open heart surgery, he called me.  Not his friends, not his significant other, not the paramedics, me.  The person who cannot chew gum and walk .

Every human being on the planet needs help throughout their lives.  IMO there is no such thing as a self sufficient human being.  There are ranges of dependent people and independent people, but there are no self sufficient people.  And parents, when their child is born or adopted, are parents forever.


----------



## Jules (Nov 10, 2020)

The key issue for Shalimar is still unclear to me.  It seems that it was lack of compassion was mentioned.  Not everyone reacts with physical or verbal affection.  Is it just two different types of personalities?  It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Jules said:


> The key issue for Shalimar is still unclear to me.  It seems that it was lack of compassion was mentioned.  Not everyone reacts with physical or verbal affection.  Is it just two different types of personalities?  It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you.


He is verbally affectionate. Comfortable with physical affection also. However, he, for reasons of his own, believes I deserve neither compassion or emotional support. Apparently I forfeited that

while he was a teen? Our personalities are very similar, as he says himself, but he has his father‘s judgemental approach toward some things. Once he gets an idea in his head, it sticks like glue, no logic required. This Is about an imbalance of power, a need to control, a willingness to repeatedly

hurt the other person under the guise of being right. For fifteen years plus, I struggled to find a healthy place for us to be a family, but, I have been a slave, I will not give up my sovereignty to appease him. Better to grow old and die alone than crawl for love.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> He is verbally affectionate. Comfortable with physical affection also. However, he, for reasons of his own, believes I deserve neither compassion or emotional support. Apparently I forfeited that
> 
> while he was a teen? Our personalities are very similar, as he says himself, but he has his father‘s judgemental approach toward some things. Once he gets an idea in his head, it sticks like glue, no logic required. This Is about an imbalance of power, a need to control, a willingness to repeatedly
> 
> hurt the other person under the guise of being right. I have been a slave, I will not give up my sovereignty to appease him. Better to grow old and die alone than crawl for love.


I agree.  The times my children left me behind and needed space they were given space.  My daughter repeatedly wanted us to move nearer to her even though we only lived, in miles, 15 miles apart, if that.  When we finally ended up moving closer, a couple months later, she sold her house and moved about 30 miles further out.

What?  She said she got a job further out so she moved.  Ok.  But we decided she wanted more distance and she did seem to be emotionally more distant.  But she repeatedly wanted her brother to move near to her and he refused.  He lived near his work.

Then she put her house up for sale and moved to Texas, upset us all, especially her brother who is now stuck with caring for his disabled brothers when we die, and us till we die.  Not to mention he thought she should have talked to him about it Etc.  

Now she says to us we should move to Texas.  What?  I remind her how well that turned out before.    I will never leave my disabled sons, never.  I have told her that.  Since she has moved to Texas, if I give an opinion, I am told I am not in charge of what she does.  . 

I am her sounding board, I sometimes agree with her, I sometimes don‘t.  When I don’t she will refuse to talk to me for a couple of weeks.  Oh, well.  This is our first holiday season without her, I miss her so much.  I had imagined how my life would be as I aged, her by my side, helping.

What a silly goose I was.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I agree.  The times my children left me behind and needed space they were given space.  My daughter repeatedly wanted us to move nearer to her even though we only lived, in miles, 15 miles apart, if that.  When we finally ended up moving closer, a couple months later, she sold her house and moved about 30 miles further out.
> 
> What?  She said she got a job further out so she moved.  Ok.  But we decided she wanted more distance and she did seem to be emotionally more distant.  But she repeatedly wanted her brother to move near to her and he refused.  He lived near his work.
> 
> ...


Not silly goose, wise woman.


----------



## jerry old (Nov 10, 2020)

The most savage critics in our world are those we care about.
Their statements, true or false shred


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

OK, Shali has me on ignore, but I gotta say a few things

I gave my kids 15...maybe 20 years of my life

Now, they get theirs
Their life
Learning things, on their own

All this hand wringing is a waste of energy and time

Me? I want what's left for me

If they estrange me (I so hope for that), so be it
Go
live
be
struggle
learn
get old

Talk to me every six months or so
Keep it light


----------



## Lizzie00 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Now, they get theirs
> Their life
> Learning things, on their own
> Go
> ...



Amen, Gary O’


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> OK, Shali has me on ignore, but I gotta say a few things
> 
> I gave my kids 15...maybe 20 years of my life
> 
> ...


I'm curious, @Gary O', is this also how your wife feels about the kids, not to mention the grands?


----------



## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

Delete because it was same as StarSong's.


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## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

It's difficult for me to imagine the gut-wrenching pain of being estranged from one of my children.  I'm sometimes closer and sometimes a bit more distant with each of them, but have never been on the outs for more than a week.  

My heart goes out to you, @Shalimar, my friend. I wish I could provide peace and comfort to your hurting soul. 
♥♥♥♥♥


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> It's difficult for me to imagine the gut-wrenching pain of being estranged from one of my children.  I'm sometimes closer and sometimes a bit more distant with each of them, but have never been on the outs for more than a week.
> 
> My heart goes out to you, @Shalimar, my friend. I wish I could provide peace and comfort to your hurting soul.
> ♥♥♥♥♥


But, my love, you do. Didn’t you know that?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> OK, Shali has me on ignore, but I gotta say a few things
> 
> I gave my kids 15...maybe 20 years of my life
> 
> ...


Hmm, you might be related to my husband, Mr Me Me Me Me first


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> mm, you might be related to my husband, Mr Me Me Me Me first


Not at all
It's for everyone
Them just as much as my lady and I
No hangers on....go out.....live


----------



## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Not at all
> It's for everyone
> Them just as much as my lady and I
> No hangers on....go out.....live


Does living only have one way, Garr, the way you see it?  I think you're blustering, Young Man (someone held the door for me today and called me 'young lady' ) 'cause, prima facie, it feels the opposite of warm.  It sounds cold.


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> is this also how your wife feels about the kids, not to mention the grands?


Oh. let's mention the grands.... our wunderkind 
Our gifts
Our blessings

My lady does all the worrying
Matter of fact, she got so enmeshed it got her so low she couldn't get outa bed
She went to a shrink
He said she was a *gunny bagger*
Carried aaaaaalll this stuff around
Ever once in a while, she'd set it down, take something out, show it to folks
Then, put it back in the bag, throw it over her shoulder, and trudge on

It struck a chord with her.....changed her life
We enjoy each other....to the max
No more wasting precious days, slogging thru

She still worries a bit.....but not so frigging much 

Adult kids need to be just that.....adults
I sure as hell didn't hang around my folks
Left early
No regrets
Happy


----------



## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

Back to OP---@Shalimar----Who is the primary controller?  You or your son?


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Does living only have one way, Garr, the way you see it? I think you're blustering, Young Man (someone held the door for me today and called me 'young lady' ) 'cause, prima facie, it feels the opposite of warm. It sounds cold.


I'm sure there's as many ways as there's people
I just know what makes my lady and I happy
Don't wish to come off as cold
I do storm sometimes

'prima facie'?
Hope I'm old enough to go more by experience than first impression
If not.....there's no hope for me
Too old to learn
Set me on a shelf
Dust me ever so often


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## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

I said prima facie because it sounded funny to me.  I spend most of my life entertaining myself.  I don't dust.


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## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I don't dust.


Now* THAT'S *funny


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Back to OP---@Shalimar----Who is the primary controller?  You or your son?


He controls/owns what he does, I control/own what I do. Sometimes our paths touch, often, they do not.


----------



## Pepper (Nov 10, 2020)

If you say so.

I see some hostility at work.  Do you still go to therapy?  South of your border, most licensed therapists must have a therapist.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> If you say so.
> 
> I see some hostility at work.  Do you still go to therapy?  South of your border, most licensed therapists must have a therapist.


 Actually, with respect, I think the hostility may be yours. Certainly, a hint of aggression is.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> I'm sure there's as many ways as there's people
> I just know what makes my lady and I happy
> Don't wish to come off as cold
> I do storm sometimes
> ...


Why?  Will the dust police arrest someone if you are not dusted?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> OK, Shali has me on ignore, but I gotta say a few things
> 
> I gave my kids 15...maybe 20 years of my life
> 
> ...


I just have to ask, I am compelled to ask.  You said you have 15 children.  My dad had 10 children, that I know of, but five different wives, at least.  1st wife daughter.  2nd wife daughter, 3rd wife daughter and son, fourth wife daughter and son, fifth wife, hmm, 3 daughters one son.

Did the wife you have physically have 15 children?  If so, your wife is more than amazing.  I barely survived giving birth 3 times.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Back to OP---@Shalimar----Who is the primary controller?  You or your son?


@Pepper where did this come from?  Primary controller?  Why would either be a controller.  She lives her life, he lives his life.  Do you have a son?  Cause I can tell you right now the primary controller of my son is his girlfriend.  Cause when she is unhappy, he gets kicked to his own housing to rethink his position in life.  

I remember the first time I fell in love with her, his girlfriend.  She is Chinese.  We asked our son to help with something in front of her.  He gave his usual “i‘llcheck my schedule and get back to you.”    His girlfriend, elbowed him in the side, pointed her finger in his face, and said, ”You do tomorrow.”  . And he did.

Yup, I love her.  LOVE HER.  Told him he never gets to break up with her while I am alive.  Told him if he does, I’m keeping her and he is on his own.  I know a good thing when I see it.


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## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I just have to ask, I am compelled to ask.  You said you have 15 children.  My dad had 10 children, that I know of, but five different wives, at least.  1st wife daughter.  2nd wife daughter, 3rd wife daughter and son, fourth wife daughter and son, fifth wife, hmm, 3 daughters one son.
> 
> Did the wife you have physically have 15 children?  If so, your wife is more than amazing.  I barely survived giving birth 3 times.


LOL - he said he gave his kids 15 years of his life, not that he had 15 kids.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 10, 2020)

StarSong said:


> LOL - he said he gave his kids 15 years of his life, not that he had 15 kids.


Oh, well, there you go, duh, me.  . I plea a senior moment but his wife is still amazing.


----------



## oldman (Nov 10, 2020)

Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a “go away” pill that took all of our worries and concerns away? Instead, we have to deal with feelings of hurt and sorrow that we believe has been caused by a failed relationship. Of course, it’s easy for others to prescribe a cure for our ails, but alas, they seldom work.

Have you tried sitting down and having a heart to heart talk? Put it all out on the table. If the problem can be resolved, that’s the time to take care of it. It may be just a simple “Remember the time you..........?” Whatever he has stuck in his crotch, there’s no better time to remove the thorn.


----------



## StarSong (Nov 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Back to OP---@Shalimar----*Who is the primary controller?* You or your son?


What an interesting question.  I don't know that any of my relationships have "primary controllers."  Even my relationship with my five year old granddaughter is fairly equal, though she defers on certain things - when it's ok to cross the street, what time she needs to go to bed, or how many cookies she may have (though I often let her wheedle extras, because, well, Grandma.).  Otherwise though, we're on fairly equal footing.    

I play a whole lot more school; listen to more 5 year old level reading material; diaper, dress and put to bed far more baby dolls, have more fabric snowball fights (I admit to having bought them so perhaps that falls on my side of the control list), and assemble way more100 piece puzzles than I would ordinarily engage in, because that's what's important in her world. Is that control? 

She waits somewhat patiently while I visit with her parents and do adult things instead of engaging in the above. That's her sacrifice, and patience for a 5 year old is a considerable sacrifice so I don't push her beyond her limits. 

The truth is she probably has more power to hurt my feelings, by turning on her heel and freezing me out than I do with her. Same with her 8 year old brother. But they don't. And I don't.  

Primary controller of a relationship?  I don't think I like the sound of that...


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 10, 2020)

oldman said:


> Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a “go away” pill that took all of our worries and concerns away? Instead, we have to deal with feelings of hurt and sorrow that we believe has been caused by a failed relationship. Of course, it’s easy for others to prescribe a cure for our ails, but alas, they seldom work.
> 
> Have you tried sitting down and having a heart to heart talk? Put it all out on the table. If the problem can be resolved, that’s the time to take care of it. It may be just a simple “Remember the time you..........?” Whatever he has stuck in his crotch, there’s no better time to remove the thorn.


Oh yes, I have tried, many times, he is not ready to listen. Perhaps one day he will be


----------



## Gary O' (Nov 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I just have to ask, I am compelled to ask. You said you have 15 children. My dad had 10 children, that I know of, but five different wives, at least. 1st wife daughter. 2nd wife daughter, 3rd wife daughter and son, fourth wife daughter and son, fifth wife, hmm, 3 daughters one son.
> 
> Did the wife you have physically have 15 children? If so, your wife is more than amazing. I barely survived giving birth 3 times


17
Grandkids

I only have four children....probably


----------



## grahamg (Nov 10, 2020)

oldman said:


> Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a “go away” pill that took all of our worries and concerns away? Instead, we have to deal with feelings of hurt and sorrow that we believe has been caused by a failed relationship. Of course, it’s easy for others to prescribe a cure for our ails, but alas, they seldom work. Have you tried sitting down and having a heart to heart talk? Put it all out on the table. If the problem can be resolved, that’s the time to take care of it. It may be just a simple “Remember the time you..........?” Whatever he has stuck in his crotch, there’s no better time to remove the thorn.


When I first scanned your post I thought you'd said "have you had a heart attack?!"
On the heart to heart business though, a friend of mine I used to call my "second mum" always went on about wanting a get together with all three of her sons, especially her eldest who was in my age group at school. I don't think it ever came to anything, as I kept telling her it wouldn't, but she was a very intelligent and resourceful woman, even if she couldn't get everything she wanted out in the open with her boys. Her eldest lad, when he was about forty years old, wrote her a snotty letter, and in it called her by her Christian name, Sheila. Her response letter was something to behold, and whilst informing him she hasn't given him permission to use her Christian name, in a loving way reminded him of her own abilities and just how much he owed her as the most wonderful and attentive stay at home mother she'd been when her boys were young!   .


----------



## Ruthanne (Nov 10, 2020)

How are you doing now Shalimar?  Are you feeling any relief from the grief?  Grief is a tough thing for anyone to go through and especially in these times of pronounced sadness in the world.  I find that letting the tears flow when they come to us helps some.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 11, 2020)

Ruthanne said:


> How are you doing now Shalimar?  Are you feeling any relief from the grief?  Grief is a tough thing for anyone to go through and especially in these times of pronounced sadness in the world.  I find that letting the tears flow when they come to us helps some.


Thank you so much for asking, Ruth. I am feeling a bit better, weeping certainly can be helpful


----------



## Pepper (Nov 11, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Actually, with respect, I think the hostility may be yours. Certainly, a hint of aggression is.


With apologies, I did not express my thoughts or my question well.


----------



## Colleen (Nov 11, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> My son and I have had a difficult relationship for many years. He was very judgemental toward me, every infraction, real or imagined was magnified into a massive offence. As my therapist put it, “guilty bitch, how do you plead?” All focus was on the negative aspects of my behaviour as he saw them.
> 
> It was rather like being a recalcitrant daughter, regularly summoned to the library by a stern
> Victorian father. He told me I had forfeited all emotional support and compassion while he was a teenager. Twice, when I was very poor, I asked him for food and was refused. Time passed, when I
> ...



This sounds SO familiar! My son is also judgmental and cruel in his assessment of me an my "mothering" skills. He's now 45 and still accuses me of "abandoning" him when he was 23 years old. I was divorced for a few years and he had a good paying job, while I had a part-time job that paid $5/hour. He lived with me at the time and I expected him to pay his share. He never did. I was in a car accident that totaled my car and I was walking 2 1/2 miles to work in all kinds of weather, when I worked. He never offered me a ride to work...not once. So, when I left to go to CA with a man I had met back in 1975, he said I abandoned him. I wanted a life of my own. Was that a major crime to be punishable for the rest of my life? I don't think so. I chose, after many attempts to make amends with him (it took years), to just step away from this toxic relationship. No grandchildren...thank God, so my ties with him are done. Emotionally, it's difficult sometimes and I'd like to reach out to him, but I remember all the cruel things he's said to me and I don't want to put myself through that any more. I'm 74 and don't need it.


----------



## Shalimar (Nov 11, 2020)

Colleen said:


> This sounds SO familiar! My son is also judgmental and cruel in his assessment of me an my "mothering" skills. He's now 45 and still accuses me of "abandoning" him when he was 23 years old. I was divorced for a few years and he had a good paying job, while I had a part-time job that paid $5/hour. He lived with me at the time and I expected him to pay his share. He never did. I was in a car accident that totaled my car and I was walking 2 1/2 miles to work in all kinds of weather, when I worked. He never offered me a ride to work...not once. So, when I left to go to CA with a man I had met back in 1975, he said I abandoned him. I wanted a life of my own. Was that a major crime to be punishable for the rest of my life? I don't think so. I chose, after many attempts to make amends with him (it took years), to just step away from this toxic relationship. No grandchildren...thank God, so my ties with him are done. Emotionally, it's difficult sometimes and I'd like to reach out to him, but I remember all the cruel things he's said to me and I don't want to put myself through that any more. I'm 74 and don't need it.


Wow, no wonder you walked. You are a strong woman. RESPECT.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Nov 11, 2020)

Colleen said:


> This sounds SO familiar! My son is also judgmental and cruel in his assessment of me an my "mothering" skills. He's now 45 and still accuses me of "abandoning" him when he was 23 years old. I was divorced for a few years and he had a good paying job, while I had a part-time job that paid $5/hour. He lived with me at the time and I expected him to pay his share. He never did. I was in a car accident that totaled my car and I was walking 2 1/2 miles to work in all kinds of weather, when I worked. He never offered me a ride to work...not once. So, when I left to go to CA with a man I had met back in 1975, he said I abandoned him. I wanted a life of my own. Was that a major crime to be punishable for the rest of my life? I don't think so. I chose, after many attempts to make amends with him (it took years), to just step away from this toxic relationship. No grandchildren...thank God, so my ties with him are done. Emotionally, it's difficult sometimes and I'd like to reach out to him, but I remember all the cruel things he's said to me and I don't want to put myself through that any more. I'm 74 and don't need it.


You cannot abandon someone who is 23.  My daughter is in this position now with her two adopted girls who are 22.  They ignore her until they need a rescue from their bad choices.  She finally listened to me and refused to rescue one of them. She is raising the others baby.  You were not wrong to step away.  I don’t think you are wrong to stay away.

At our age, I am 74, we need to care for ourselves.  We deserve peace.  If he reaches out to you, that would be different, if he has grown up and has a different view point.  Take care of yourself, stay safe.


----------



## Colleen (Nov 11, 2020)

Pinky said:


> Sometimes, people just need to mature.



Honestly....some never mature. My son is 45. He abandoned me when he was 17 years old.


----------



## Judycat (Nov 11, 2020)

My oldest son and I are like oil and water. I know he cares about me, but we don't like each other particularly. Short visits are fine but it's not hard saying good by. When I need help he's there though. He's a good decent man and I'm satisfied with that.


----------



## Autumn72 (Nov 11, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I am so sorry you have these issues.  When my daughter told us she was moving away, two weeks before she did, I was crushed.  I have always had to be very careful in what I say to her or I would be in the same position others are.
> 
> If I unknowingly make a criticism, that I did not realize was a criticism, she will not text me for a couple of weeks.  Which is how I know I I said some thing wrong but have no clue what it was. I tell myself she forgot my birthday this year for the first time.
> 
> But I am lying to myself.  I know she didn’t forget.  I know she decided I said something she didn’t like, and therefore, I must be “punished”.  She is very much like her father.  I sometimes pay a big price for continued contact so I understand what you are saying.


Me too!


----------



## Autumn72 (Nov 11, 2020)

WhatInThe said:


> Sounds like someone is influencing him. For what ever reason he listens to them.I've seen certain peer groups change family members Has his or wifes peer group changed? And I've seen attitude get worse as people age. I'm surprised you helping him with school as a young adult, your relatonship and parental contributions increased as he aged. I'd say there's a new variable here.
> 
> You helped get him through school and is now in a highly respectable productive job. That's all a parent can ask and help do for their child. He can fend for himself AND society at the sametime. Always keep that in mind.


This is also my grieve.
My story is tragic to the max.
Yet i have watched youtube on adopted grown children  found and of course is shown only the good parts of this matter.
I stupidly in dreamland thought that old commercial of " reach out and touch someone" was a good idea.
As I've read along this journey,  "that good intentions never go unpunished"...catches my reality  "Murphy's law ".
Many years go by as that word "ostracizing" pops up a word akong side of "estrange"....the pain is over-whelming that several times i felt like turning myself into "spring harbor" never to throw in the towel yet can anyone celebrate every holiday alone....after four daughters. I have made my mistakes and believed they would come willingly in my heart they live....recently i found out my estranged sister's address..i wrote her that  i realized where my daughter  was  hiding...she did not like what i had to say. Though she is married recently living in his house. She had to yell out so he would hear how good she is and i am the evil of us both.
She did call me with s few digs and insults in a creative positioned area of our talk when i went forward to try to forgive.
She had my new email phone number and old address meant to give to my daughter. She knows where she is....yet said. If she tells me she "Brooke" will not talk to her ever. Yet when she told me that she heard from my daughter, she said that if her son (her only one) didnt want to talk to her she would not talk to him.
Two of my sisters had boys no daughters so you see the jealousy later in years  gone by.
This is grown too long and so i will rest my case. Even though ive told her that i was the one who gave birth to her and i was the one who changed her nappies......it didnt faze her a bit.


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## Lewkat (Nov 11, 2020)

Well, I have one son an only child.  We were very close for years and then came the teen years.  My mom warned me I'd get pay back.  Did I ever have my hands full.  He became disrespectful, started drinking at age 15, skipped school, etc.  This from a straight A student just a couple of years prior.  So, it was tough love, baby, and then he decided to compete with  me.  He did finish high school at 16, even though he continued to drink off and on.  But he was determined he would out do me intellectually.  Where this came from I shall never know.  He did as a youth on rainy days sit and read the Encyclopedia Brittanica for pleasure and soaked what he learned like a sponge..  In addition when it came to anything mechanical, he could take it apart and put it together in better shape than before.  I would always praise him for his talents and brains.  We were not distance in telling each other how much we loved one another and hugs were frequent.  Still are to this day.  I introduced him to his wife and they dated for awhile.  She was extremely jealous of him and also of his relationship with me.  For he ultimately respected me for not taking any guff from him and more or less straightening him out.  He finally broke up with her and they did not speak for 6 years.  This girl had many issues.  She was bi-polar and border line schizo.  Her mother died at 37 from brain cancer when she was 13 and her sister 11.  Her dad was a traveling salesman and rarely around, so the grandparents were in charge.  They did not see to it that she always took her meds and there was always a problem in the family dynamic.  At any rate, my son's path crossed hers after 6 years and they got back together.  Everyone was delighted buy me, but  I did not show it at all.  I made a real show of welcoming her as the daughter I never had, etc.  She worked on my kid, so that, they both wound up being quite unkind to me.  As a matter of fact, she was downright cruel and her vituperations were to the point that had I had a gun, I'd have happily killed her.  I banished both of them from my life which lasted for over 2 years.  They had moved away, but of course I knew this from friends.  Finally, he could stand it no longer and approached me, contrite and begging me to see him.  I of course said ok, with the caveat to leave her home.  We had a loving reunion and then one day she sent me a letter with abject apologies for her behavior, recognizing now that she was immature, etc.  I think that came from her therapist and her father.  Well after that we had a cautious relationship and she never interfered my son's affections for me.  I told her that I was not her enemy, and that we both loved him.  A mother's love is quite different than that of a wife.  We did have a few good times together, and when she became ill with cancer, I took care of her.  She went fast, only 4 months after her diagnosis.  Now, my son is leaning on me like a little boy again and I am making sure he doesn't continue along those lines.  It's tough, Shalimar with kids.  They get a mind set and we have to deal with it the best way we know how.  Did it hurt?  You bet.  But, I was a therapist myself at one time, so I had many tools to work with.  Not everyone is that fortunate.  I pray your situation improves daily.  The child does not have permission to criticize you ever unless you are druggie or an outright criminal and it would do to remind him of this.  You are his mom and he either accepts that fact or will lose you forever.  Kids fear that deep down.

You are in my thoughts daily.


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## Autumn72 (Nov 11, 2020)

StarSong said:


> It's difficult for me to imagine the gut-wrenching pain of being estranged from one of my children.  I'm sometimes closer and sometimes a bit more distant with each of them, but have never been on the outs for more than a week.
> 
> My heart goes out to you, @Shalimar, my friend. I wish I could provide peace and comfort to your hurting soul.
> ♥♥♥♥♥


A surrogate  mew family for the holidays should be up for grabs on 2020 that would fix some of this loneliness.


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## jerry old (Nov 11, 2020)

I like to see the fussing, don't understand it-keyboard ugly does not merit attention.
We are a humorous bunch, just watch: won't be a minute or so before someone says something
that offends others. 
Clyde told me long ago, "Don't pay no never mind, don't mean squat.".
Now if their carrying a stick, that's a different matter.


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## Pepper (Nov 11, 2020)

Autumn72 said:


> Even though ive told her that i was the one who gave birth to her and i was the one who changed her nappies......it didnt faze her a bit.


That's not a successful argument.  No one asked to be born and no one newly born can change their own nappies.  Losing strategy.


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## grahamg (Nov 11, 2020)

Autumn72 said:


> This is also my grieve.
> My story is tragic to the max.
> Yet i have watched youtube on adopted grown children  found and of course is shown only the good parts of this matter.
> I stupidly in dreamland thought that old commercial of " reach out and touch someone" was a good idea.
> ...


Your story is quite familiar to me, though of course as a man my perspective has to be slightly different. Obviously men don't give birth to their children, no matter that we hope we've loved them as much as the mother does, or if that is not possible, as much as we believe we could have loved any child, as my estranged daughter of over twenty years has been told in some correspondence through a third party recently.

I recognise your expressed position at the end of your post, and concur with your conclusions. Fully estranged children may never come back is the reality I've come yo accept, but the "irreconcilable" aspect is all on her side, and in my belief, still due in large part to the attitude of her mother towards any love being shown by my child to me.


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## Shalimar (Nov 12, 2020)

Autumn72 said:


> This is also my grieve.
> My story is tragic to the max.
> Yet i have watched youtube on adopted grown children  found and of course is shown only the good parts of this matter.
> I stupidly in dreamland thought that old commercial of " reach out and touch someone" was a good idea.
> ...


Ohhh, how heartbreaking for you. Sending love, hugs, and prayers your way. You are not alone.


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## Shalimar (Nov 12, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> Well, I have one son an only child.  We were very close for years and then came the teen years.  My mom warned me I'd get pay back.  Did I ever have my hands full.  He became disrespectful, started drinking at age 15, skipped school, etc.  This from a straight A student just a couple of years prior.  So, it was tough love, baby, and then he decided to compete with  me.  He did finish high school at 16, even though he continued to drink off and on.  But he was determined he would out do me intellectually.  Where this came from I shall never know.  He did as a youth on rainy days sit and read the Encyclopedia Brittanica for pleasure and soaked what he learned like a sponge..  In addition when it came to anything mechanical, he could take it apart and put it together in better shape than before.  I would always praise him for his talents and brains.  We were not distance in telling each other how much we loved one another and hugs were frequent.  Still are to this day.  I introduced him to his wife and they dated for awhile.  She was extremely jealous of him and also of his relationship with me.  For he ultimately respected me for not taking any guff from him and more or less straightening him out.  He finally broke up with her and they did not speak for 6 years.  This girl had many issues.  She was bi-polar and border line schizo.  Her mother died at 37 from brain cancer when she was 13 and her sister 11.  Her dad was a traveling salesman and rarely around, so the grandparents were in charge.  They did not see to it that she always took her meds and there was always a problem in the family dynamic.  At any rate, my son's path crossed hers after 6 years and they got back together.  Everyone was delighted buy me, but  I did not show it at all.  I made a real show of welcoming her as the daughter I never had, etc.  She worked on my kid, so that, they both wound up being quite unkind to me.  As a matter of fact, she was downright cruel and her vituperations were to the point that had I had a gun, I'd have happily killed her.  I banished both of them from my life which lasted for over 2 years.  They had moved away, but of course I knew this from friends.  Finally, he could stand it no longer and approached me, contrite and begging me to see him.  I of course said ok, with the caveat to leave her home.  We had a loving reunion and then one day she sent me a letter with abject apologies for her behavior, recognizing now that she was immature, etc.  I think that came from her therapist and her father.  Well after that we had a cautious relationship and she never interfered my son's affections for me.  I told her that I was not her enemy, and that we both loved him.  A mother's love is quite different than that of a wife.  We did have a few good times together, and when she became ill with cancer, I took care of her.  She went fast, only 4 months after her diagnosis.  Now, my son is leaning on me like a little boy again and I am making sure he doesn't continue along those lines.  It's tough, Shalimar with kids.  They get a mind set and we have to deal with it the best way we know how.  Did it hurt?  You bet.  But, I was a therapist myself at one time, so I had many tools to work with.  Not everyone is that fortunate.  I pray your situation improves daily.  The child does not have permission to criticize you ever unless you are druggie or an outright criminal and it would do to remind him of this.  You are his mom and he either accepts that fact or will lose you forever.  Kids fear that deep down.
> 
> You are in my thoughts daily.


Thank you so much lewkat. I am pleased that things are much better between you and your son. Sometimes it seems that being a therapist hasn’t been of much use in dealing with my son, but I know I would have fallen apart without the skills sets I learned at university and acquired dealing with clients. Still learning.


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## Shalimar (Nov 12, 2020)

Autumn72 said:


> A surrogate  mew family for the holidays should be up for grabs on 2020 that would fix some of this loneliness.


I don’t understand?


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## grahamg (Nov 12, 2020)

Colleen said:


> Honestly....some never mature. My son is 45. He abandoned me when he was 17 years old.


Did you go down the counselling route, and call in professionals to try to sort things out?

_(I'm not suggesting you should have, or recommending it, just raising the question)_


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## Colleen (Nov 12, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Did you go down the counselling route, and call in professionals to try to sort things out?
> 
> _(I'm not suggesting you should have, or recommending it, just raising the question)_



No, but I should have...for myself many, many years ago.


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## Morningglory (Nov 22, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> By now, one would think I would have accepted that I just can’t fix this. For whatever reason, my son has issues when it comes to his mother. Do I have a clue what they are? Not really. Does he? I have my doubts. Regardless, I choose distance over being complicit in a relationship which lacks compassion, no matter how pleasant he can be on other fronts. But, oh, it hurts. He is the only family I have. He has told me more than once I am the most loving and supportive person he has ever met. Ok, why isn’t that enough?


Hi Shalimar very sorry to hear about your son, I too have  situation with my daughter who told me I am narcissist and toxic, I think I'm far from it, hurts like heck cried for 2 weeks, she done my shopping now I have no one. I pray for all who is going through our situation.


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## grahamg (Nov 22, 2020)

Morningglory said:


> Hi Shalimar very sorry to hear about your son, I too have  situation with my daughter who told me I am narcissist and toxic, I think I'm far from it, hurts like heck cried for 2 weeks, she done my shopping now I have no one. I pray for all who is going through our situation.


There are a lot of us, in very different ways, or due to very different scenarios leading up to the estrangement.

If there is any silver lining or comfort to be found, it is possibly when you know, or are pretty well certain, your child is leading a good/successful/happy !I've no matter, (bittersweet though even that is of course).


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

MorningGlory, thanks for your support, I am so sorry you are going through this with your daughter. Terrible pain, at a very scary point in time. I pray she changes her mind and things improve between you. Sending hugs.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

This forum is a great place to share what is going on in your life, good and bad. Some very supportive members here.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> MorningGlory, thanks for your support, I am so sorry you are going through this with your daughter. Terrible pain, at a very scary point in time. I pray she changes her mind and things improve between you. Sending hugs.


I see that you are a new member, welcome to the forum.


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## Warrigal (Nov 23, 2020)

Yes, welcome, Morning Glory. You will find support here. 
Feel safe here and stay safe out there.


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## Morningglory (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> MorningGlory, thanks for your support, I am so sorry you are going through this with your daughter. Terrible pain, at a very scary point in time. I pray she changes her mind and things improve between you. Sending hugs.


Thank you Shalimar, yes very scary, I'm 83 and disabled from back surgery and can't stand very long at a time, very  stressful ,she has done this before for 10 yr and 4 yrs I dont have that long to wait again, I hope I don't sound like a  narcissis  now. Is so forgive me.


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## Morningglory (Nov 23, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Yes, welcome, Morning Glory. You will find support here.
> Feel safe here and stay safe out there.


Hi Warrigal thank you!


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## Morningglory (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> I see that you are a new member, welcome to the forum.





Morningglory said:


> Hi Warrigal thank you!


I've been a member since 2018 but don't get on here very often


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## Nathan (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> I choose peace and self respect at whatever the cost. No one controls the narrative of my life


Maybe your son feels the same way.      I have an estranged adopted daughter that chose to side with her mother, when we divorced.   Like you, I had to choose peace and self respect, and control the narrative of my life as well.    We all make those choices, I guess.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

Morningglory said:


> Thank you Shalimar, yes very scary, I'm 83 and disabled from back surgery and can't stand very long at a time, very  stressful ,she has done this before for 10 yr and 4 yrs I dont have that long to wait again, I hope I don't sound like a  narcissis  now. Is so forgive me.


Oh my, MorningGlory, how terrible for you! There is nothing to forgive, you don’t sound like a narcissist at all. Anyone in your position would need help. Regarding your daughter, perhaps, if she can convince herself you are in the wrong, she can excuse her own behaviour. Perhaps she 

simply needed a “reason “ to stop helping you. In the end, I think it is all about power and control, and her need to punish you, while not being accountable for her own choices. Sending love and prayers to you.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Maybe your son feels the same way.      I have an estranged adopted daughter that chose to side with her mother, when we divorced.   Like you, I had to choose peace and self respect, and control the narrative of my life as well.    We all make those choices, I guess.


Perhaps he does. I am sorry you had to deal with something similar. At times, being a parent can be heartbreaking.


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## Colleen (Nov 23, 2020)

I never realized so many of us parents were dealing with the same kind of heartaches from our children. How sad   Children can be very cruel, can't they? I figure I'm getting payback for all the years I didn't have a good relationship with my mother, so, now, my 45 year old son is doing the same thing to me.

I had a domineering, verbally abusive mother. She wore my father down into a weak, pathetic man that had no mind of his own. I was 19 when I married the first man that came along just to get out of the house and away from her criticism and nasty comments to me. The "marriage" was a huge mistake and I moved back home. This was another huge mistake because it gave them both the opportunity to criticize me even more. This was a pattern for me that lasted my whole life. I'd get bouts of guilty thoughts that I should try to be a better daughter but every time I called her, she was very curt and disapproving. I lived in another state for many years hoping distance would be the best thing for both of us. My conscience would nag at me all the time. It was hell. I knew what would happen if I contacted her, but I felt guilty if I didn't.

My father died in 1987 (he was only 76) and she was left with a house she couldn't take care of. She was crippled with arthritis. I offered a place to live with me and I told her I'd help her sell the house. She actually agreed. I quit my job and left my family to go help her. I lived 400 miles away at the time. When I got there, we were sitting on the porch and I was asking her what she wanted to do with the house. She looked at me and said, "Are you crazy? This is my home and I'm staying here." I was stunned. The next day, she had a pre-op appointment for a knee replacement and I told her she needed to take all her meds with her so they knew what she was taking. She told me I didn't know what I was talking about (even though I had been in nursing for many years).  So, we went to her appointment and the first thing the nurse asked her was if she brought her meds with her. I went out to the waiting room and when she came out and sat down, she looked at me and said, "What the hell's the matter with you?" Everybody in there heard her but I was so embarrassed, I couldn't say anything. When we got back to the house, I packed and left. She was screaming at me and told me to never come back.

A few years went by, and she seemed to "soften" a little. I found out the neighbor woman and her husband next door had been "taking care" of her. These people were notorious for doing this to other lonely women so they could get whatever they had. My husband and I never knew this until we were visiting in town a few years later and my mother announced that she had a "new" family. I was not allowed to be alone with her to talk to her. They were always there. Her neighbor took me aside and told me, "You just have to know how to play the game (with her)."

I wanted to know what my mother's medical condition was so I went to her doctor's office and got the paperwork for her to sign so I could be informed of her medical situations. She refused to sign it and called the neighbors to come over and she told them that she was in danger from me and my husband. She wanted them to call the police to have us removed from her property! They came running over and got her calmed down and didn't call the police. I explained I just wanted to know what was going on with her. My mother looked at me and said, "You're nothing but a whore and a slut. I've only made two mistakes in my life...one was marrying your father and the other was adopting you." David and I left and I never had any contact with her after that. I was 51 by then and decided I'd had enough. She died 3 years later. I almost didn't make the trip to go to the funeral. We were living in TX by then and she was in MI. Her neighbor and "new family" made all the funeral arrangements. My mother always had beautiful clothes but by the time she died she didn't even own a dress to be buried in. When I saw her in the casket, she had on some borrowed ugly dress on that she would have never worn when she was alive.

I found out soon after that the neighbors "inherited" everything my mother had, including the house.

This is a long explanation of why I think my toxic relationship with my son is the way it is is because I'm reaping what I sowed. By neglecting my mother as her daughter is coming back to haunt me.


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

Colleen said:


> I never realized so many of us parents were dealing with the same kind of heartaches from our children. How sad   Children can be very cruel, can't they? I figure I'm getting payback for all the years I didn't have a good relationship with my mother, so, now, my 45 year old son is doing the same thing to me.
> 
> I had a domineering, verbally abusive mother. She wore my father down into a weak, pathetic man that had no mind of his own. I was 19 when I married the first man that came along just to get out of the house and away from her criticism and nasty comments to me. The "marriage" was a huge mistake and I moved back home. This was another huge mistake because it gave them both the opportunity to criticize me even more. This was a pattern for me that lasted my whole life. I'd get bouts of guilty thoughts that I should try to be a better daughter but every time I called her, she was very curt and disapproving. I lived in another state for many years hoping distance would be the best thing for both of us. My conscience would nag at me all the time. It was hell. I knew what would happen if I contacted her, but I felt guilty if I didn't.
> 
> ...


I weep for you  as I read this. My dear, please do not continue to buy into your mother’s false and toxic reality. Most malignant narcissists have a scapegoat, I believe you were hers. You, like so many of us, are a victim of gaslighting. You did not neglect her, you backed away to protect 

yourself from a woman who would have destroyed you without a thought. To those of my clients who have narcissistic parents, my advise is always the same, walk away, walk away, walk away. Their pathology is virtually incurable, and can destroy your life. Whatever problems you may 

have with your son are in no way a karmic judgment from some vicious and intolerant Deity/Universe. It is even possible he has narcissistic qualities also. Certainly, his behaviour toward you is exceedingly cruel and mindblowingly self absorbed. Please give yourself 

permission to be human, worthy, vulnerable. It is a huge credit to your humanity that you remain a kind person with the ability to feel love and compassion for others. Their inability/unwillingness to treat you with the respect and dignity you deserve is on them, not on you. I shall hold you in my heart, I wish you the very best. You ARE deserving of no less, my friend.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2020)

Colleen said:


> I never realized so many of us parents were dealing with the same kind of heartaches from our children. How sad   Children can be very cruel, can't they? I figure I'm getting payback for all the years I didn't have a good relationship with my mother, so, now, my 45 year old son is doing the same thing to me.
> 
> I had a domineering, verbally abusive mother. She wore my father down into a weak, pathetic man that had no mind of his own. I was 19 when I married the first man that came along just to get out of the house and away from her criticism and nasty comments to me. The "marriage" was a huge mistake and I moved back home. This was another huge mistake because it gave them both the opportunity to criticize me even more. This was a pattern for me that lasted my whole life. I'd get bouts of guilty thoughts that I should try to be a better daughter but every time I called her, she was very curt and disapproving. I lived in another state for many years hoping distance would be the best thing for both of us. My conscience would nag at me all the time. It was hell. I knew what would happen if I contacted her, but I felt guilty if I didn't.
> 
> ...


No it’s not!!  It just does not work that way.


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## Morningglory (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> I weep for you  as I read this. My dear, please do not continue to buy into your mother’s false and toxic reality. Most malignant narcissists have a scapegoat, I believe you were hers. You, like so many of us, are a victim of gaslighting. You did not neglect her, you backed away to protect
> 
> yourself from a woman who would have destroyed you without a thought. To those of my clients who have narcissistic parents, my advise is always the same, walk away, walk away, walk away. Their pathology is virtually incurable, and can destroy your life. Whatever problems you may
> 
> ...


Oh Colleen I cried  reading your story, I wish I could give you some good advice, but I  can't, but Shalimar  certainly did .Stay strong and stay well.


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## Morningglory (Nov 23, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> Oh my, MorningGlory, how terrible for you! There is nothing to forgive, you don’t sound like a narcissist at all. Anyone in your position would need help. Regarding your daughter, perhaps, if she can convince herself you are in the wrong, she can excuse her own behaviour. Perhaps she
> 
> simply needed a “reason “ to stop helping you. In the end, I think it is all about power and control, and her need to punish you, while not being accountable for her own choices. Sending love and prayers to you.


Thanks Shalimar, she does like to have control, I think you got it right.


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## grahamg (Nov 23, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> No it’s not!!  It just does not work that way.





Aneeda72 said:


> No it’s not!!  It just does not work that way.


I shouldn't altogether dismiss Colleen's view that "what goes around comes around", (though I doubt it occurs every time?).


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## Shalimar (Nov 23, 2020)

Morningglory said:


> Thanks Shalimar, she does like to have control, I think you got it right.


You are most welcome.


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## Colleen (Nov 24, 2020)

Shalimar said:


> I weep for you  as I read this. My dear, please do not continue to buy into your mother’s false and toxic reality. Most malignant narcissists have a scapegoat, I believe you were hers. You, like so many of us, are a victim of gaslighting. You did not neglect her, you backed away to protect
> 
> yourself from a woman who would have destroyed you without a thought. To those of my clients who have narcissistic parents, my advise is always the same, walk away, walk away, walk away. Their pathology is virtually incurable, and can destroy your life. Whatever problems you may
> 
> ...


Thank you for not being judgmental and for giving me some peace of mind. I need it...don't we all?! 

I had to re-read your comments several times, like a mantra, to absorb what your were saying. It's hard to NOT be hard on yourself when so many others have been. Thank you for some light into my sometimes dark thoughts  Bless you. Namaste.


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## Shalimar (Nov 24, 2020)

Colleen said:


> Thank you for not being judgmental and for giving me some peace of mind. I need it...don't we all?!
> 
> I had to re-read your comments several times, like a mantra, to absorb what your were saying. It's hard to NOT be hard on yourself when so many others have been. Thank you for some light into my sometimes dark thoughts  Bless you. Namaste.


   You are most welcome, my heart’s own sister. We survivors need to love and support each other. Bless you also. May I offer a suggestion? I have a variety of quotes which act as touchstones, anchoring me when I am triggered and PTSD stalks my mind. I keep them above the computer desk. Perhaps that might help you also. Namaste


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