# Should we provide lethal weapons to the Ukraine?



## Ralphy1 (Feb 3, 2015)

The Obama administration is flirting with this idea to halt Russia's military action there.  It could be a trial balloon to see if Putin will back off or it could be for real.  Methinks that tougher economic sanctions are the only way to go if we can ratchet them up any further, but your opinion will be welcome, as usual...


----------



## Debby (Feb 3, 2015)

First maybe Obama ought to provide proof that Russia is doing anything that is as horrible as what the US is already doing in Ukraine.  Maybe some actual satellite imaging for one thing, some answers about MH17 which nobody is talking about anymore despite the accusations by the US in the initial moments (could start by causing the investigators to release the voice recordings???).

Where's the proof that Russia is involved in military actions?  Just your governments say so?  Or the say so of a government that took over via a military coup (as opposed to a democratic vote!!!!) 

And tougher sanctions.....hope to do to Russia what America did to Cuba?  Screw the Russian people right?  And I do recall, Obama himself said 'sanctions DON'T work'......but screw learning from past experience because America wants what America wants.  

If you look at the video on this website:   http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-25/out-my-face-please-why-are-us-soldiers-mariupol

and forward to about 2 mins.36 sec., the soldier wearing the Ukrainian uniform says very plainly to the camera man, 'get out of my face'.  Damn, didn't sound like a Ukraine accent at all, most definitely sounded like an American.  So is America already doing what you're suggesting they are 'flirting' with?  Lethal aid and boots on the ground? 

With an American now in the government of Ukraine, Bidens son on the board of Ukraine's largest energy company, not to mention the collusion that saw America sending $5 billion over the past couple years to Ukraine to support the coup,  this whole 'thinking about sending lethal aid' is so disingenuous that it is laughable.

Until the world wakes up and sees what the American administration is doing in countries all over the world, we will all sit here with our fingers crossed and hope that WW3 doesn't start.


----------



## WhatInThe (Feb 3, 2015)

I don't think this war, conflict or what ever you want to call it is as clear cut as the Cold War days. You can't turn this into a proxy war like we did in countries like Korea or Vietnam. With all the different and volatile factions there is too much chance of escalation.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 3, 2015)

Ahhhh Debby!  More hyper critical testimony from our Canadian American hater!  :badgirl:


----------



## Falcon (Feb 3, 2015)

Let's not be too hasty; stay out of this one, at least for awhile until we see what's really happening.
  WE can't "take care of" the whole world.


----------



## Debby (Feb 3, 2015)

Dispute any of that Jim?  Got proof that everything I've suggested here is totally out in left field?  Did you even look at the video to see whether or not one of your own (or many) aren't already there?

The truth is, I don't trust your government.  Go by past actions (read some history that hasn't been 'approved' and dished out by mainstream media), look at who is threatening whom and it's enough to cause the thinking person to question everything that comes out of your White House.

Or are you happier with the old 'shoot the messenger' method of managing alternate opinions?


----------



## Josiah (Feb 3, 2015)

You stated the question well, Ralphy, and I think I agree with your assessment. Supposedly Russia is really feeling the sanctions and I'm surprised that they haven't buckled especially with their oil revenues plummeting.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 3, 2015)

Debby, You need not "trust" or Government.  You don't have anything to concern yourself with in your own country?


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 3, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Ahhhh Debby!  More hyper critical testimony from our Canadian American hater!  :badgirl:



I knew that was coming when I saw the thread title!  lol!!


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 3, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> You stated the question well, Ralphy, and I think I agree with your assessment. Supposedly Russia is really feeling the sanctions and I'm surprised that they haven't buckled especially with their oil revenues plummeting.



I go along with this... The Sanctions PLUS the decline in oil prices will suffice in keeping Russia sedated for a while..  NO point getting involved right now. But we need to keep a close eye on it.


----------



## Davey Jones (Feb 3, 2015)

Should we provide lethal weapons to the Ukraine?

Why not? we give weapons to any country on this planet that ask for it,just fill out the forms  and wait for the Brown Truck.


----------



## Debby (Feb 3, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Debby, You need not "trust" or Government.  You don't have anything to concern yourself with in your own country?




Excuse me?  We are right next door to you guys.  At the very least, if America provokes Russia into a war, nuclear weapons will be used and we and Britain and Europe and everyone will be affected.  We do need to concern ourselves with the belligerence that comes out of your White House and Congress.  I don't care if your two parties want to bicker and squabble until the cows come home, but this steps out of your borders.  I'm very surprised that this thought apparently never occurred to you.

And on top of being your next door neighbour, we have a government that has hitched our wagon to yours.  Keystone aside, Harper is matching the rhetoric of the US on this one and seeing as how America aided in the original coup, America is responsible by default.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 3, 2015)

We don't give weapons to anyone. We sell them. Follow the money. lethal weapons lol, no paintball for those guys.


----------



## Debby (Feb 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I knew that was coming when I saw the thread title!  lol!!







I knew you wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 3, 2015)

Is nonlethal weapon an oxymoron ?


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 3, 2015)

Debby, May I suggest a well thought out plan to relocate so you won't be further jeopardized by nasty ole America.  Perhaps other places in this world would render you more safety.


----------



## Debby (Feb 3, 2015)

rt3 said:


> We don't give weapons to anyone. We sell them. Follow the money. lethal weapons lol, no paintball for those guys.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...1-5-billion-a-year-in-aid-heres-what-it-does/
Regarding Egypt:  '.. The biggest chunk is military aid, averaging about $1.3 billion per year since 1987, with much of that military equipment


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-begins-weapons-delivery-to-syrian-rebels/2013/09/11/9fcf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html
The CIA has begun delivering weapons to rebels in Syria, ending months of delay in lethal aid that had been promised by the Obama administration

Sounds like your government is buying weapons from the manufacturers and giving them to whomever.  You are right though about it being about money.  I read that in the last 50 years, the weapons industry has earned 27,000%.


"*War Profits*The power and influence of the military-industrial complex in promoting serial wars has resulted in extraordinary rates of profit. According to a recent study by Morgan Stanley (cited in Barron’s, 6/9/14, p. 19), shares in the major US arms manufacturers have risen 27,699% over the past fifty years versus 6,777% for the broader market. In the past three years alone, Raytheon has returned 124%, Northrup Grumman 114% and Lockheed Martin 149% to their investors."



All those military lobbyists got to have something to do right?  

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-so...-soaring-costs-of-military-casualties/5388393


----------



## rt3 (Feb 3, 2015)

Since the taxpayers end up paying for it, one could rationalize it , that at the least the money stays at home. During the Iraqy war it was nice to actually see my tax dollars at work. I could watch the shock and awe.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 3, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Since the taxpayers end up paying for it, one could rationalize it , that at the least the money stays at home. During the Iraqy war it was nice to actually see my tax dollars at work. I could watch the shock and awe.


Like you say you got to WATCH!


----------



## rt3 (Feb 3, 2015)

Yup, almost wanted to pay more taxes, because I only got to claim one bomb.


----------



## Laurie (Feb 3, 2015)

Of course you  should.

There's a market there.

You'll never get anywhere mixing business and principles.

You think we Brits or the French will hang back?


----------



## ~Lenore (Feb 3, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The Obama administration is flirting with this idea to halt Russia's military action there.  It could be a trial balloon to see if Putin will back off or it could be for real.  Methinks that tougher economic sanctions are the only way to go if we can ratchet them up any further, but your opinion will be welcome, as usual...



*Yes, we should supply them good weapons.  They are the only ones over in that part of the  world willing and able and tough enough to fight ISIS.  They need good weapons.  *


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 3, 2015)

~Lenore said:


> *Yes, we should supply them good weapons.  They are the only ones over in that part of the  world willing and able and tough enough to fight ISIS.  They need good weapons.  *



Are the Ukrainians mobilizing to fight ISIS?  I did not know that.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Are the Ukrainians mobilizing to fight ISIS?  I did not know that.



Yeah!  I thought it was the Russians.


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 3, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Yeah!  I thought it was the Russians.



Oh who cares.... So long as everyone is fighting!!!


----------



## rt3 (Feb 3, 2015)

There is still an incredible amount of war materials left from WW2. Vietnam saw millions of dollars of war materials left there, as well as Iraq and Afgan. In all these instances the battle cry was to get weapons to those folks so they could help themselves, and not in one instance did they help themselves enough to turn a tide. Almost in every case it had been a CIA counter insurgency of some degree. It will be about oil or drugs.


----------



## ~Lenore (Feb 3, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Are the Ukrainians mobilizing to fight ISIS?  I did not know that.



*OOops!  I meant the Russians, although the Russians deny it is them.  I had just been overwhelmed by all the ISIS stuff.  *


----------



## tnthomas (Feb 3, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Should we provide lethal weapons to the Ukraine?.



Naw, let's sit this one out, if the U.N. wants to get involved then they can foot the bill.


----------



## Don M. (Feb 3, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The Obama administration is flirting with this idea to halt Russia's military action there.  It could be a trial balloon to see if Putin will back off or it could be for real.  Methinks that tougher economic sanctions are the only way to go if we can ratchet them up any further, but your opinion will be welcome, as usual...



The Biggest Weapon being leveled against Russia is the recent major drop in oil prices.  Oil is just about the Only Russian export of any consequence, and this sharp reduction in prices is already taking a heavy toll on the Russian economy.  Putin is probably scrambling to find the funding to mount more of an offensive in the Ukraine, and he will eventually have to deal with the lack of finances coming into Russia.  The Real Danger lies in how long these oil prices stay depressed. If the Russian economy gets bad enough, Putin may make some even more dangerous moves.


----------



## Laurie (Feb 4, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> Naw, let's sit this one out, if the U.N. wants to get involved then they can foot the bill.



And which country is the biggest contributor to the UN, if I may make so bold?

You are picking up the unpleasant end of the stick either way!


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 4, 2015)

Let's just attack Canada...


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Debby, May I suggest a well thought out plan to relocate so you won't be further jeopardized by nasty ole America.  Perhaps other places in this world would render you more safety.




Well that's a delightful idea and I'm sure that millions of people the world over  (notice I said the world over???) wish they could have escaped the 'tender ministrations' of America.  Cambodia, Libya, Iraq, Haiti, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Cuba....to name a few.

But wouldn't it be better for the world if America started getting along with the world?


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Are the Ukrainians mobilizing to fight ISIS?  I did not know that..........and then:  AZJim:  Yeah! I thought it was the Russians




Still paying attention to foreign affairs are we?


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> Still paying attention to foreign affairs are we?




LOL!!!  I see my comment went WAY over your head....   Obviously YOU don't understand tongue in cheek.. ... among  lots of other things...


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

Well then QS why don't you enlighten me.  If you really did know what is going on over there (sort of), and you were replying facetiously to Lenore, then perhaps, as one can't see body language or facial expressions, it would be helpful if you include the appropriate little emoticon.  The lack of said emoticon simply leads me to think that you seriously considered the possibility that Ukraine has any possible hope of involvement with the battle against ISIS.

And while I have you.....how about a comment on the 'American soldier in the Ukraine military uniform'.  Any thoughts?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...diers-mariupol  ff to 2 min.30 seconds


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

On Christmas eve a UN resolution signed by Kerry went into effect restricting world arms trade. The weapons would have to be supplied by some covert operation. Not very likely as all the nations who have signed this treaty will be watching. The treaty will be brought to the senate floor for a vote as it pertains to guns in the U.S. the treaty itself violates the constitution and would be stamped void. However it is part of Ozbama's gun registration agenda and there is no time limit on it. If it could be implemented by executive order we would be reading about it now.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

The brief out of my face comment does't mean US involvement as such., and one doesn't need any clips to know US ground observers are and were present. Blast patterns and spectral analysis will tell what type and where the explosives came from, which will be part of the Intel package coming back.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

Follow the money


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

rt3 said:


> The brief out of my face comment does't mean US involvement as such., and one doesn't need any clips to know US ground observers are and were present. Blast patterns and spectral analysis will tell what type and where the explosives came from, which will be part of the Intel package coming back.




And do you think observers generally are wearing the military uniform of the country that they are in?  And do they carry guns?  This is the page of the OSCE who are supposed to be 'observing' in Ukraine  http://www.osce.org/ukrainemonitoring, and the two men and one woman are plainly identified as observers, OSCE observers specifically and they are not armed, nor are they 'hiding' in a uniform.  So why is it that American 'observers' see the need to don Ukraine military uniforms (apparently) and carry guns if I am to believe your explanation?



http://www.osce.org/om/138346   Report of a spot check on a Russian humanitarian aid vehicles crossing into Ukraine and being inspected by both Russian military and Ukraine military.  No mention made of arms, etc.,




rt3 said:


> Follow the money



So what is your explanation rt3 for $5 bill. to Ukraine to foment unrest, support of a military coup instead of an election, and a government that instead of discussing with the parts of it's country that don't like how things were decided on, decides instead of talking, to start blasting that area of their own country? 

What is your opinion on an American embassy official giving up her citizenship so that she can take over as the finance minister of the country where the coup happened?

What is your opinion on your Vice Presidents son taking a place on the Board of Directors of the 'coup-country's' largest energy company?

Any massive conflicts of interest issues rearing their head here?


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

We are not the players, if you want to "get close" to what is going on following the money will give you the best results. Again there are no black and white hats. If you believe everything you read on the Internet, I don't know what to say. There will be as many "psyops"as the real thing.
Bidens son getting the job is just politics as normal, remember it's about oil and drugs.

oil is mass conflict of interests.

as far as one part of the country blasting the same part of its own country, happens all the time every day, even in the US. Most folks look the other way.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't think Debby is an America hater at all, she is just pointing out some facts that may only be addressed by alternative news media, and I think that's a good thing.  I'm not by any means an expert at all on this subject, and I've never been very politically minded.  But I do recall this guest on the Coast radio show awhile back who was speaking about Russia and the US involvement.  Here's his article on the subject if anyone is interested.  http://www.thenation.com/article/179119/cold-war-again-whos-responsible#


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

rt3 said:


> We are not the players, if you want to "get close" to what is going on following the money will give you the best results. Again there are no black and white hats. If you believe everything you read on the Internet, I don't know what to say. There will be as many "psyops"as the real thing.
> Bidens son getting the job is just politics as normal, remember it's about oil and drugs.
> 
> oil is mass conflict of interests.
> ...




Nothing you've said really explains the American administrations 'interest' in Ukraine rt3. 

And America is a player in Ukraine and that region.  When you supply $5,000,000,000 to a group of people that are trying to *push out* their elected government, when your State Department staff (Victoria Nuland) conspires with those perps to continue the support in defiance of another sovereign group (the EU), when your VP's son finds a place in their energy company right after the coup, (which happens to owe $4.5 billion to the very country that you guys are trying to bring down), and when your country lines up sanction after sanction that cause you no pain but impacts everyone else, then you are a player!  

And if the blasé attitude about countries blasting their own citizens is acceptable, the why  the angst about Assad bombing in regions of his country?  John Kerry is on record as comparing Assad to Hitler for doing exactly what Poroshenko's Ukraine military is doing to Ukrainian cities.  The one difference is that Assad is fighting against terrorists from outside the country who moved in on that country while Poroshenko is fighting against his own citizens.  All hot and bothered about Syria, but when it's Ukraine bombing their own neighbourhoods and civilians, not so hot and bothered. 

And something that strikes me as ironic is that while Kerry is comparing Assad to Hitler, neo-Nazi's were among the 'military' group that overthrew the previous government!  Isn't that a hoot?  One situation America supports, the other is condemned.  It's all about agenda's and 'the people' are cannon fodder and targets.

Your own Dennis Kucinich knows why Assad is a target and it has everything to do with regime change as opposed to real concern for the Syrian civilians.  So 'we'll' get all worked up about Assad bombing communities in Syria, but not a word mentioned about how the Ukraine military is doing exactly the same thing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-j-kucinich/syria-isis-war_b_5869964.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

By the way, the article by Kucinich is terrific.  You really should read it.  After all, he's speaking about something that you pay for and that is potentially one of the US's and the worlds bigger problems.


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

By the way rt3, the one thing I would agree with you on, is that there are NO white hats.  On the whole, they all are varying shades of dirty, grubby grey.   Every government has check marks in the 'good' column and in the 'bad' one.   And something that I am continually amazed at, is the fluidity of loyalties.   Enemies this year, and supporters next.  It's quite something.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

Debby said:


> Nothing you've said really explains the American administrations 'interest' in Ukraine rt3.
> 
> And America is a player in Ukraine and that region.  When you supply $5,000,000,000 to a group of people that are trying to *push out* their elected government, when your State Department staff (Victoria Nuland) conspires with those perps to continue the support in defiance of another sovereign group (the EU), when your VP's son finds a place in their energy company right after the coup, (which happens to owe $4.5 billion to the very country that you guys are trying to bring down), and when your country lines up sanction after sanction that cause you no pain but impacts everyone else, then you are a player!
> 
> ...



Soooo what's your point?


----------



## Debby (Feb 4, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Soooo what's your point?




The point is you were wrong about not being a player and your government is behaving in a reckless way that endangers all of us and they're hoping that you won't connect the dots and call them on it.  

Lots of great things have come out of the USA.  The USA has many great universities, a movie and music industry that has entertained us all well, medical discoveries that have benefited millions and great inventions of all sorts.  The citizens have shown repeatedly that they/you rally to the aid of your neighbour in times of disaster and you have a country that is wonderfully varied and interesting.  My husband used to ride with a group of guys, half of whom were situated in the Bellingham area and he travelled thousands of miles in the Pacific North West and had a blast and met lots of nice folks.  

And in spite of all the good feelings and 'warm fuzzies', it doesn't alter the fact that your government sees fit to endanger us all.  The facts are what the facts are and if you actually do follow the money...........so it seems to me that in the interest of 'world peace', we're doing exactly what citizens who will be impacted, should be doing, which is discuss it and share information.  

And by the way SeaBreeze, thanks for the link!  I'm half way through it and I'm really enjoying it.  One to bookmark for sure so thanks.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm glad I am old.


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

Ok I think I got it.
if there is money to be made somebody is probably already doing it
if there is a lot of money to be made, somebody will manipulate the situation 
it's not a perfect world
some people would rather go to the movies
the purpose of economics is to give validity to astrology (quote from Galbraith)


----------



## rt3 (Feb 4, 2015)

I have already connected the dots, but my TD Ameritrade platform is telling me I have to make a leveraged short sale right now, catch you in a few mins.


----------



## Debby (Feb 5, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I'm glad I am old.




I know what you mean.  Unless there are HUGE changes in the attitudes of human beings all over the world, the future looks pretty wretched for our grandchildren.  Climate issues, terrorist actions, the possibility of nuclear war, joblessness, food and clean water scarcity!!!!  What are we leaving to my little Liam and Elsa, to your grandchildren?  You'd think that with all the history that we have to look back on, and all the rhetoric about caring for our fellow man and computers to help us not only manage all the information that we have as well as to make use of, you'd think we'd be heading in a better direction.  And yet here we are, teetering on the edge of the abyss.


----------



## Elyzabeth (Feb 5, 2015)

Should we provide lethal weapons to the Ukraine? 

"The Obama administration is flirting with this idea to halt Russia's military action there. It could be a trial balloon to see if Putin will back off or it could be for real. Methinks that tougher economic sanctions are the only way to go if we can ratchet them up any further, but your opinion will be welcome, as usual"

THE ANSWER IS NO !!!!!

ISIS is another story they do, and  will continue pose a threat to us !


----------

