# Pains & Struggles of Investing



## kylewright (Sep 16, 2019)

Hey Everyone!

Thought It might be interesting to hear stories of how you got started investing for yourself and maybe share what problems you've encountered or struggles your currently dealing with when it comes to investing your own money.


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## retiredtraveler (Sep 17, 2019)

I got into investing in my 20's. I got started because my Dad, who had no understanding of markets at all, got a really good tip (from a business teacher) on a stock that did well over the years. I figured there was opportunity.

    Being a nerd, I started going to the library with a notebook reading _Kiplinger _and_ Money_ magazines. I sent away for publications in the mail (long before pc's ---- this is in the 70's), and actually went to a couple of investment firms (Fidelity and Scwab) who had offices in Chicago and free literature on investing. Also went to several free seminars on investing. It took me a couple of years to understand the principles and the differences among the funds: large cap, small cap, stocks vs bonds, income funds, etc. I learned how different funds and stocks perform in up and down markets, risk versus rewards, and in general, understood terms that I encountered in financial articles. It was a slow process. It took several years before I could actually read a _Wall Street Journal _or _Forbes _ with real understanding.  

  Anyway, built on that over the years. I did all my own investing, took some chances that paid off, missed some great opportunities. I got into regular trading and to do that, went to the library every week to read _Value Line _reports.

   To sum up, I treated investing as a part-time job and spent thousands of hours over the decades at it. I saw my Dad having to moonlight at several jobs (he was a low-paid teacher) to give us a 'middle class' standard of living. I figured I could do that via investing. It worked. Wife and I retired at 56 and 54 with no health or pension benefits.

  The key, to me (and everyone has their own take), was understanding what I was doing. I understood the risks, I understood what financial people were discussing or what I was reading in investment articles.


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## Pecos (Sep 17, 2019)

I started investing when IRA's first became available. My wife started investing when her company (AT&T) offered a stock purchase program for junior employees. We also participated in our companies 401K programs or Federal Thrift Savings. Over the years, those investments have paid off handsomely. And we bought Savings Bonds, lots of them. (Banks hate you when you show up with big stacks of US Savings Bonds to get enough cash for a down payment on a house.)

That said, we made a couple of mistakes, and had a couple of notable saves.

When AT&T first split up, all the employees who participated in the stock option plan were given stock in all of the spinoffs. We sold all of these little bits and pieces except Southwestern Bell (now AT&T again) and Lucent. At its peak, we had over $6000 in Lucent Stock. Little did we know that those executives were all busy selling their stock while bragging about how well Lucent. In the end, my wife's Lucent stock was worth about $150. Somebody should have gone to jail for that dishonestly.

We dumped Janus Funds when their runup in value became unbelievable (like 50% in one year for Janus 20). We got out of it before their stock prices collapsed.

We dumped two funds because their online login security was seriously lacking, and two other funds who engaged in a degree of insider trading with favored big customers.

I took Money Mag for over 30 years and learned a lot. They eventually became seriously redundant. I used Morningstar services for a couple of decades and had good success with them.

And most importantly, we ALWAYS stayed away from anyone who wanted to manage our investments for us!


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## retiredtraveler (Sep 17, 2019)

Pecos said:


> And most importantly, we ALWAYS stayed away from anyone who wanted to manage our investments for us!



My favorite line in your story............


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## Uptosnuff (Sep 17, 2019)

I started investing in my early 20's.  I worked for Northwestern Bell at the time.  They had a fabulous benefits package that included a matching 401k with company stock, medical, a pension program and they also contributed to Social Security.  I worked with older workers who were always talking about the matching 401k program.  I realized i was leaving money on the table if I didn't participate, so I enrolled.  After about 11 years there I quit my job to stay home with my young daughter.  By that time (the late 80's, early 90's) the Bell System had broken up and I sold off my company stock and changed to an IRA with mutual funds.  I'm forever glad I did because the stock ended up tanking and I would have lost most of my money.

Fast forward to 2000.  I was hired by the company I am now working for.   As soon as I could, I enrolled in the 401k program and have been contributing ever since.  This company also has a pension as well as the 401k.  I invest in mutual funds, heavily on the stock side.

An interesting note:  When I was 55 and 1/2, Qwest ( formerly Northwestern Bell) contacted me to ask if I wanted to keep my small pension or take a lump sum.  Normally I would advise anyone to keep their pension but in this case I did not know if the company would still be around when I was retirement eligible so I took a lump sum.  I was shocked at how small the lump sum was.  I think I was royally ripped off, but did it anyway because at least I was receiving something in the way of retirement money.  Well, I invested that along with some other money I had left over from my Northwestern Bell days and put it into index funds at Ameritrade where it sits slowly growing.

Mutual funds have been my investment of choice.  For a time in the late 90's I worked for Ameritrade and did my first online trade by myself.  I quickly learned I am not a very good day trader or stock picker.  Even though I did end up losing money, it wasn't that much, and i learned that mutual funds were much better for me.  Maybe I could have been a better investor, but I'm happy with what I have.


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## Pecos (Sep 17, 2019)

The pensions from the AT&T system are pitiful. My wife took the pension rather than the lump sum, which was't much either. The dividends she gets from her stock are more than the pension. The fees that AT&T charges if you want to pass some portion on to your spouse are very high. For us, it simply was not worth it. Their pension does not adjust for inflation which is another disappointment. Their stock does spin off an agreeable dividend but we worry about how viable the company is over the long haul.
Not dumping Lucent (bell labs) still irks me.


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 17, 2019)

I saved and invested through payroll savings plans at work including 401K when it became available.

The accumulation phase was all pretty boring and uneventful, sort of like watching it snow.







The hardest time for me was riding out the market crash of 2008.   At that time I had already stopped working and was living on my savings without the benefit of Social Security or a pension.  I knew that I had made good decisions but it was difficult to tune out the chatter and dire predictions of the media.


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## retiredtraveler (Sep 18, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> I saved and invested through payroll savings plans at work including 401K when it became available.
> The hardest time for me was riding out the market crash of 2008.   At that time I had already stopped working and was living on my savings without the benefit of Social Security or a pension.  I knew that I had made good decisions but it was difficult to tune out the chatter and dire predictions of the media.


Yes. Understand. We had retired  as you, no pension/SS or health care (we had that through private insurance). I had an 'unfair advantage' though. Wife decided she was too young to retire after a couple of years of travel and went back to work. That gave us some income and health care benes.  I spent months trying to figure out next investment move, or not. Finally 'bet the farm' on junk bond funds. To most people, dumb idea. But I saw that those funds were priced with an assumption of a 50% default rate, and the funds had dropped to half their previous value. I read that in the Great Depression, the highest default rate of corporate bonds was 16%. So, decided, as I had for decades, that the investment gurus didn't know crappola. Total return on my investments more than doubled in about 16 months . Those funds came back long before stocks, and paid dividends. That secured my retirement.
   And yes, I could have been wrong..............


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## Uptosnuff (Sep 18, 2019)

Pecos said:


> The pensions from the AT&T system are pitiful. My wife took the pension rather than the lump sum, which was't much either. The dividends she gets from her stock are more than the pension. The fees that AT&T charges if you want to pass some portion on to your spouse are very high. For us, it simply was not worth it. Their pension does not adjust for inflation which is another disappointment. T*heir stock does spin off an agreeable dividend but we worry about how viable the company is over the long haul.*
> Not dumping Lucent (bell labs) still irks me.



Very valid concern.  One I wasn't willing to take.  I hope it works out for you.


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## Uptosnuff (Sep 18, 2019)

@retiredtraveler
"Total return on my investments more than doubled in about 16 months . Those funds came back long before stocks, and paid dividends. That secured my retirement.
And yes, I could have been wrong............. "

"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din"


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## Liberty (Sep 18, 2019)

Our investments have been heavily weighted with business and real estate or real estate and business...some stocks in there though.  2008 - 2010 were good years to make money in the market.  Sold a couple good pieces of real estate and we were also"good to go" for retirement.  Sold the business a couple years ago...now we're just coasting, except hubby plays tournament poker, its hard work, but  does very well! Would like to have some good tips or direction right now to monitize some bucks, any suggestions?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 18, 2019)

i have been using the fidelity insight newsletter for more than 30 years with excellent results ...no regrets


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## treeguy64 (Sep 18, 2019)

I started investing in real estate at 28.  Previously, I had mutual funds, from about the age of 20.  I also started buying single stocks, selling long and short.  Later, I did day trading.  I always read up on everything I did with my money.  No problems, except a small loss when I took a "hot stock tip" from an old buddy who didn't know what he was talking about.


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## CallmeIshmael (Sep 19, 2019)

My parents were good savers but poor investors - you might think the saving part is more important, and it probably is, but you can lose a lot of dough by buying high and selling low!  From them, I learned what to do and what not to do.  I also took a nature interest towards investing and reading about stocks - it was a little bit like collecting, just like baseball cards, I liked knowing about the good companies I owned at the good prices I bought them at.  And like Warren Buffet, I intended to hold each and every security FOREVER!  But then the dot com era came and I got spooked.  I bought companies like Yahoo! and Broadcom, which I optimistically thought would double in 5-7 years.  They doubled in literally 60-90 days.  That’s when I got spooked, sold my individual tech stocks and started buying bricks and mortar companies along with index funds.  I still lost a fair amount after the dot com bubble burst (on paper), but much less than I might have.  

By the time 2008/2009 came around I was pretty convinced that I was not as smart as I thought I was so I continued investing into the stock market as it cratered.  That was really scary and my portfolio took a beating, but bounced back nicely in hindsight.   

To be honest, I am nervous about everything in the stock and bond market all over again.  Again, I am not as smart as I think I am, but I feel like there is a lot of financial engineering going on right now and some nameless politicians and maestros at central banks are walking on a tight rope trying to keep the global economy going.  Or to use another analogy, its like watching controled burns to prevent forest fires, but they don’t burn as much of the fuel - so just when everyone gets complacent, the random spark in CA ignites a massive, terrible forest fire.


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## Liberty (Sep 19, 2019)

CallmeIshmael said:


> My parents were good savers but poor investors - you might think the saving part is more important, and it probably is, but you can lose a lot of dough by buying high and selling low!  From them, I learned what to do and what not to do.  I also took a nature interest towards investing and reading about stocks - it was a little bit like collecting, just like baseball cards, I liked knowing about the good companies I owned at the good prices I bought them at.  And like Warren Buffet, I intended to hold each and every security FOREVER!  But then the dot com era came and I got spooked.  I bought companies like Yahoo! and Broadcom, which I optimistically thought would double in 5-7 years.  They doubled in literally 60-90 days.  That’s when I got spooked, sold my individual tech stocks and started buying bricks and mortar companies along with index funds.  I still lost a fair amount after the dot com bubble burst (on paper), but much less than I might have.
> 
> By the time 2008/2009 came around I was pretty convinced that I was not as smart as I thought I was so I continued investing into the stock market as it cratered.  That was really scary and my portfolio took a beating, but bounced back nicely in hindsight.
> 
> To be honest, I am nervous about everything in the stock and bond market all over again.  Again, I am not as smart as I think I am, but I feel like there is a lot of financial engineering going on right now and some nameless politicians and maestros at central banks are walking on a tight rope trying to keep the global economy going.  Or to use another analogy, its like watching controled burns to prevent forest fires, but they don’t burn as much of the fuel - so just when everyone gets complacent, the random spark in CA ignites a massive, terrible forest fire.


Yes, its very natural to be leery of the market.  I've jumped in when things were down and made good money, but think most people really have issues on those years when their mutual funds or whatever make nothing or they begin to lose money.  Its hard to sit tight then.  Think its harder now as you get older.  You always feel you don't have the time to wait it out.  We'd all like to have those mutual funds/stocks that always make money year after year, wouldn't we now?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 19, 2019)

Most of those who are gun shy would do better getting a 3rd party to manage their money keeping themselves away and out of the loop ...


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## Liberty (Sep 19, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Most of those who are gun shy would do better getting a 3rd party to manage their money keeping themselves away and out of the loop ...


But with that said..you better know who that 3rd party is.  Have some friends that have lost money, guy!  Sticky fingers and "hey, I don't care, still getting my percentage" attitudes.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 19, 2019)

Liberty said:


> But with that said..you better know who that 3rd party is.  Have some friends that have lost money, guy!  Sticky fingers and "hey, I don't care, still getting my percentage" attitudes.


Fidelity and vanguard offer very low cost mgmt services


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## Liberty (Sep 19, 2019)

That's good to know and I presume they would be "honest"?  No  absolute guarantees on that, though I know...lol.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 19, 2019)

Liberty said:


> That's good to know and I presume they would be "honest"?  No  absolute guarantees on that, though I know...lol.


It is simple index portfolios


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## Liberty (Sep 19, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> It is simple index portfolios


Who was it said "nothing is simple these days"...lol.  As long as you  have a strategy and have assessed your risk tolerance.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 19, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Who was it said "nothing is simple these days"...lol.  As long as you  have a strategy and have assessed your risk tolerance.



the problem is what feels good vs what makes financial sense is usually in contrast to each other ...this is why  active mgmt can actually add 2-3% to peoples portfolio's who tend  to be to gun shy.

the morningstar small investor returns sho most small investors fail to see the returns the funds they were in got as they try to out think the fund or exhibit poor investor behavior


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## Liberty (Sep 20, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> the problem is what feels good vs what makes financial sense is usually in contrast to each other ...this is why  active mgmt can actually add 2-3% to peoples portfolio's who tend  to be to gun shy.
> 
> the morningstar small investor returns sho most small investors fail to see the returns the funds they were in got as they try to out think the fund or exhibit poor investor behavior


I don't get that...why wouldn't they "fail to see the returns"?  Wouldn't that be clearly shown to them regularly in the form of "interest like" monies?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

Liberty said:


> I don't get that...why wouldn't they "fail to see the returns"?  Wouldn't that be clearly shown to them regularly in the form of "interest like" monies?


most small investors end up bailing in drops or they think they are going to outsmart things by timing when to  be in and out ..the end result is morningstar tracks the outflows and inflows and has a investor return as well on funds and it lags the funds themselves as the majority of the money fails to beat just staying put


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## Liberty (Sep 20, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> most small investors end up bailing in drops or they think they are going to outsmart things by timing when to  be in and out ..the end result is morningstar tracks the outflows and inflows and has a investor return as well on funds and it lags the funds themselves as the majority of the money fails to beat just staying put


So you are saying they are trying to get in or out to make more money, when the funds might say, for instance May 31- to May 30 year to year to determine fund status earnings or losses?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

Liberty said:


> So you are saying they are trying to get in or out to make more money, when the funds might say, for instance May 31- to May 30 year to year to determine fund status earnings or losses?


Yes ...whatever the time frame is they want to use you have investors trying to time their buy and sells ....timing rarely works well so when they track the money flow they always find investor returns show most who time or get scared out get less than the fund does


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## Victor (Sep 20, 2019)

I began in the 80s very conservatively with bond funds.
I had access to all the financial resources but  played it safe right through the bull
market.  I didn't have the money to invest. A bought a few stocks. Att is the best.
Then I inherited a stock portfolio that I monitor. I trust no one to manage
them. I also have an IRA, and recommend a healthcare fund, You can even invest
in the mutual fund itself.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

Victor said:


> I began in the 80s very conservatively with bond funds.
> I had access to all the financial resources but  played it safe right through the bull
> market.  I didn't have the money to invest. A bought a few stocks. Att is the best.
> Then I inherited a stock portfolio that I monitor. I trust no one to manage
> ...


AT&T lagged terribly the last 10 years...a simple s&p 500 beat it by a mile and with far less risk since taking on individual company risk is always way riskier than investing in 500 stocks or in a total market fund with 3200 stocks


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## Liberty (Sep 20, 2019)

Victor said:


> I began in the 80s very conservatively with bond funds.
> I had access to all the financial resources but  played it safe right through the bull
> market.  I didn't have the money to invest. A bought a few stocks. Att is the best.
> Then I inherited a stock portfolio that I monitor. I trust no one to manage
> ...


Are you talking  about a specific healthcare fund or mutual fund itself?  If so, which one?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

I like sector funds but I would never ever think I could pick just one sector ....if anything I would buy 4 or 5 sectors diversifying the sectors in to what amounts to a weighted pretty diversified fund ....


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

Looking at the newsletter I have been getting for more than 30 years , they have an excellent sector portfolio that has had outstanding sector portfolio performance.... they have less then 20% in healthcare..they always use 5 to 6 sector funds in the portfolio


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## Liberty (Sep 20, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Looking at the newsletter I have been getting for more than 30 years , they have an excellent sector portfolio that has had outstanding sector portfolio performance.... they have less then 20% in healthcare..they always use 5 to 6 sector funds in the portfolio


What have you been averaging per year?


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## mathjak107 (Sep 20, 2019)

Liberty said:


> What have you been averaging per year?


The insight growth model has averaged 11% a year since 1987 ....of course for retirement I shifted to their growth and income model which is 60/40 as well as the near term money is in their income model portfolio which is 25% equities....but I was in the growth model for decades .

The growth portfolio started in 1987 and 100k is 3.1 million today , that is 11%  ....the sector model was started in 1988 and is 4.4 million today ...a total market fund for comparison is about 2.7million


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## fmdog44 (Sep 21, 2019)

Started 40 years ago. Learned s a few rules the hard way. 1. Don't invest in something you don't understand. 2. Don't chases winners. 3.Don't buy all at one time, spread you money out over time. 4. Diversify so when one market goes down another may go up. 5.Your money will never make you well off if it does not _work_ for you. 6. Be patient as you are in for the long haul through market swings good and bad. 7. Never be greedy.


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 21, 2019)

8.  Don't lose sight of why you saved and invested, enjoy it now!


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## mathjak107 (Sep 21, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Started 40 years ago. Learned s a few rules the hard way. 1. Don't invest in something you don't understand. 2. Don't chases winners. 3.Don't buy all at one time, spread you money out over time. 4. Diversify so when one market goes down another may go up. 5.Your money will never make you well off if it does not _work_ for you. 6. Be patient as you are in for the long haul through market swings good and bad. 7. Never be greedy.




the only one i am not thrilled with is stretching out buys ... markets are up 2/3's of the time and only down 1/3 so it puts the odds of doing better dollar cost averaging in as opposed to lump sum against you .

after all if putting money in over time actually worked better we would all reach our desired allocations , sell everything and start from zero again buying in again over time. you can see that would not work well at all .


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## Liberty (Sep 21, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> 8.  Don't lose sight of why you saved and invested, enjoy it now!


Really like what you said Aunt Bea.  Money is all about "convenience".  Its profoundly inconvenient to be poor.  With that said, if you don't enjoy the fruits of your labor then they just better put bigger pockets in your shroud, because you sure think you're going to take it with you.  LOL!


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## Liberty (Sep 21, 2019)

Our preferred method of growing money has been real estate.  Undeveloped to developed land has the greatest potential for asset growth and its done very well for us. It certainly does help to be in an area of continually expanding growth potential, though. 

 Do think its best to stay with what you like and as fmdog says "don't invest in something you don't understand.  I might add enjoy your investing..."go with your gut feel".  Its been very good for us. Fun, even!  Funny but true story...we once bought a piece of property at a "midnight" sale...got a call from a local that his evil aunt was going to give it to her kids if she couldn't sell it, and he wanted part of it, so we paid cash for it - it had an AG exemption on the property, and not long after the 2 lane road became a 4 lane road.  Built a building on it , divided it and sold it out.  

We love the acreage and  house my husband (an E.E.)  built, so life is good, huh.  Go with what interests you.  Its your business, because nobody else pays your rent, huh.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 21, 2019)

i grew a lot of money in what was really a real estate business . but a business is not something i want in retirement . we want passive investments only now that can be sold , swappwed and spent all with the click of a button


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## oldman (Sep 21, 2019)

I earned my money the old fashioned way. I inherited it.


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## Knight (Sep 21, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> 8.  Don't lose sight of why you saved and invested, enjoy it now!


IMO the best advice posted.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 21, 2019)

oldman said:


> I earned my money the old fashioned way. I inherited it.


i thought you were going to say stole it  ha ha ha


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## Liberty (Sep 21, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> i grew a lot of money in what was really a real estate business . but a business is not something i want in retirement . we want passive investments only now that can be sold , swappwed and spent all with the click of a button


Yep, ditto on that.  There's a time to plant and a time to harvest. And a time to sit on the back deck and survey your kingdom...lol.


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## Victor (Sep 21, 2019)

Liberty said:


> Are you talking  about a specific healthcare fund or mutual fund itself?  If so, which one?


You can invest in the mutual fund itself, such as T Rowe Price funds, in general. Price has a reliable
healthsciences fund that covers many pharmaceutic and research companies, usually very well. 
Schwab also has a healthcare fund.


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## Liberty (Sep 21, 2019)

Victor said:


> You can invest in the mutual fund itself, such as T Rowe Price funds, in general. Price has a reliable
> healthsciences fund that covers many pharmaceutic and research companies, usually very well.
> Schwab also has a healthcare fund.


Thanks a lot Victor...will check it out.


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## Pecos (Sep 21, 2019)

One thing that surprised me is that annual spending can fluctuate so much in retirement. When we first retired, we spent most of our annual income. Travel and home improvement projects took bug chunks. But in recent years, we are finding that our spending has dropped significantly and we wind up saving 10 to 15% of our after tax income in CD's. We don't travel as much, we have the house fixed the way we want it, we don't go out to eat as often, and aging pets tend to keep us home. I strongly suspect that our pattern of spending could change that in a heartbeat if one of us got seriously ill, so staying on safe side brings me a level of comfort. In this day and age, I feel safer putting these funds into CD instead of stocks and bonds, but at some point ultra low returns may change that.
When I do my taxes (Turbo Tax), the IRS always asks what we did with our IRA/401K withdrawals. I always check that we spent it since they have the idea that we should all be flat broke when we leave the planet. I find this to be a bit invasive and reason that yes we did spend the MRD, …. but we saved some Social Security.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 21, 2019)

Pecos said:


> One thing that surprised me is that annual spending can fluctuate so much in retirement. When we first retired, we spent most of our annual income. Travel and home improvement projects took bug chunks. But in recent years, we are finding that our spending has dropped significantly and we wind up saving 10 to 15% of our after tax income in CD's. We don't travel as much, we have the house fixed the way we want it, we don't go out to eat as often, and aging pets tend to keep us home. I strongly suspect that our pattern of spending could change that in a heartbeat if one of us got seriously ill, so staying on safe side brings me a level of comfort. In this day and age, I feel safer putting these funds into CD instead of stocks and bonds, but at some point ultra low returns may change that.
> When I do my taxes (Turbo Tax), the IRS always asks what we did with our IRA/401K withdrawals. I always check that we spent it since they have the idea that we should all be flat broke when we leave the planet. I find this to be a bit invasive and reason that yes we did spend the MRD, …. but we saved some Social Security.


Study after study shows that seniors with discretionary spending seem to spend in a smile shape ...they spend a lot during the early go go years of retirement...then spending starts to slow and fall off as they no longer do or buy a lot of discretionary things ...then it ramps up again in the later no go years from healthcare expenses ..

The studies showed that spending can taper off so much that inflation adjusting every year is not even needed as what is no longer spent covers a lot of what went up


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## Liberty (Sep 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Study after study shows that seniors with discretionary spending seem to spend in a smile shape ...they spend a lot during the early go go years of retirement...then spending starts to slow and fall off as they no longer do or buy a lot of discretionary things ...then it ramps up again in the later no go years from healthcare expenses ..
> 
> The studies showed that spending can taper off so much that inflation adjusting every year is not even needed as what is no longer spent covers a lot of what went up


Yes, and like Pecos said, when you first retire, think you tend to travel and fix up the house more. When first retiring think you tend to do repairs or remodels put off during work years. Then you say, "hey, don't care about this or that enough to have all these workman in here day in and day out for a couple weeks."  Its profoundly inconvenient.


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## mathjak107 (Sep 22, 2019)

when you are underfunded and have little discretionary spending there is little that you will be stopping so those people are effected far more by inflation then those who do have quite a fair amount of discretionary spending and tend to slow down .

that is not to say that many of us won't just pick up spending  later on by doing more for the kids or grand kids , that is an option .


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## oldmontana (Sep 22, 2019)

kylewright said:


> Hey Everyone!
> 
> Thought It might be interesting to hear stories of how you got started investing for yourself and maybe share what problems you've encountered or struggles your currently dealing with when it comes to investing your own money.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I started about 60 years ago...learned a lot .. sometimes at a cost.  At that time there were no discount brokers like we have had for the last 30 years or so.


I found that I did the best when I did my own research and subscribe to several publication.

I have used four big brokerage firms and find they are interested in churning my account for big commissions I know use TD Ameritrade.


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## Liberty (Sep 23, 2019)

Think when people say "investing" they normally think of the stock market.  Over the years, I've traded, but have just not cared for it.  Hey, its real simple right...buy low sell high...lol.  Lots make money, lots lose money on the market. 

Would like to find something other than that to invest in.  Also tangible other investments.  
Right now, hearing people are parking their money...thinking the market will go down. 
Equities aren't what they used to be, the country is heading for a dive, etc.  Its just basically boring to me.  

Would like to hear from those who are not bored and have interesting investments.  Of course we all like a decent yearly return, now don't we...whether we sell "stuff" or get 
dividends or interest.


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## Uptosnuff (Sep 23, 2019)

@Liberty 

I'm not sure if this qualifies as "interesting" investments or not but, right now we have four rental houses.  I wish we had gotten into the rental market years ago but we have only had them about 5 years.  We are going to start selling them off since they are a lot of work and when I retire I want to start traveling.

Since the properties are in an LLC and we want to avoid capital gains, we will probably take the money realized from the sales and buy a vacation house somewhere warm, keeping it in the LLC.  Perhaps renting it out when we aren't there.  We haven't gotten everything worked out yet but are researching it.

I guess I would consider this an investment and really, it's still renting out properties.


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 23, 2019)

Nothing exotic here, when it comes to my retirement income boring is exactly what I'm looking for.

_"I don't look to jump over 7-foot bars: I look around for 1-foot bars that I can step over." _- Warren Buffett


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## mathjak107 (Sep 23, 2019)

Boring is great when it comes to investing....now that we are retired I want no more investment real estate ....hopefully the last will be sold on this upcoming Thursday... I want liquid investments that are boring and can be sold ,swapped or rebalanced with the click of a button ..... I maintain a diversified mix of stuff wit equities,bonds and gold ....it works well


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## Liberty (Sep 23, 2019)

I hear you, but...


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## mathjak107 (Sep 23, 2019)

Liberty said:


> I hear you, but...View attachment 76962


I still keep a trading account for my fun trades but the serious money is in set portfolios


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## Liberty (Sep 23, 2019)

Ok, had to sign a universal non compete that's got 2-1/2 more years to run - stops me from being in the specialty food biz...lol.

So, guess I'll just get my jacks out and see if I can do my "tenzies".  Can you tell I've been 
talking to the kids?


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## fmdog44 (Sep 23, 2019)

Nothing wrong with dollar cost averaging but I also watch for insider advice on what is going on behind closed doors trying not to buy solid stocks when they are overvalued. CBI has long been a solid world leader in their business but I took a bath buying in a dip and again on several dips that never stopped dipping


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## Rich29 (Sep 23, 2019)

My retirement portfolio consists mainly from 40+ years of socking away funds in three 401k's (different employers), then moving
them to IRA's. I have also invested in some mutual funds outside the company's 401k's. While I have become fairly knowledgeable in financial
matters, I utilize professionals for some of the financial decisions and management. I feel it's too important to rely just on my own (sometimes emotional) decisions. Three years into retirement; so far, so good.


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## Creek Pirate (Oct 17, 2019)

I just retired about a year ago, I would like to keep things simple. I got with a Vanguard adviser and moved my savings into a profolio of index funds. He gets .3%. Not many transactions in index funds, just keep a balance of 60/40. This has been a good year maintaining about 9% return. I know this because each month I take the numbers and put them to an excel from the profolio and again to keep it simple I note the gain/loss from the beginning year balance. I look to average 6% to do a withdrawal of 2.6% but will not withdraw unless I have a gain of better than 4%. I meet my expenses with my fixed income money but my expected yearly desired amount is met with the 2.6%. My withdrawals happen once a year in Jan and are moved to a spending money market account where money is moved once a month as needed to my local bank to pay bills. I am not a market / stock player, as this would require allot of effort keeping up with transactions and capital gains for taxes. Nor do I think I will get into tax harvesting or trading ETF's. Retirement should be about the beach and a Corona and my investment watching should be once a month. But that's just me I guess. Cheers!


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

My biggest regret is that I didn't start ''playing the market'' until I was 51, although I've owned real estate and rentals since I was 24.  Hey, no one I knew was into stocks, that's my excuse.  Then someone at work in 1993 told me to open a stock account at Quick & Reilley (later Merril Lynch) and play a little.  I made a lot of mistakes and had a few home runs and it got into my blood.  Love it, it's my drug of choice.  LOL   Right now I am fully invested but  I'm not buying much, am letting my dividends grow, and hope to buy a few stocks at sale prices when the market goes into bear territory.   This bull started on March 9, 2009 so it's just a matter of time to the crash.  I also add, I'm not into technicals and barely know how to read balance sheets, my buying choices are based on gut instincts mostly.  I was also lucky that I worked for an electric company and they had excellent benefits, including a 401k and a pension.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 17, 2019)

Any time I hear someone use the words PLAYING THE MARKET odds are pretty good they don’t understand much about investing...


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Any time I hear someone use the words PLAYING THE MARKET odds are pretty good they don’t understand much about investing...


Buying stocks IS a form of gambling, even those who do extensive research can end up with losers.  The odds are much better than gambling, though, and I don't mind the occasional  losses.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 17, 2019)

Buying individual stocks is speculating unless you can buy enough to  not have individual company risk ...however buying index funds or broad based stock funds is investing and unless you exhibited poor investor behavior there is only volatility to deal with but little risk ..

Try to time buys and sells , freaking out and bailing out when you should be buying and mismatching the time frame you want the money are all bad investor behavior that cost them in the end.

if it was possible to miss the worst days or even the worst time frames , our record would make buffetts look like an amateur ..  the reality is we can't  not only guess the right days to be out we are very bad at even picking the right time frame .

University of Michigan Professor H. Nejat Seyhun analyzed 7,802 trading days for the 31 years from 1963 to 1993 and concluded that just 90 days generated 95% of all the years’ market gains — an average of just three days per year.

so while missing the worst days while not hurting yourself is near impossible , catching the best days is easy ... just stay invested and dont try to time things


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## Catlady (Oct 17, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Buying individual stocks is speculating unless you can buy enough to  not have individual company risk ...however buying index funds or broad based stock funds is investing and unless you exhibited poor investor behavior there is only volatility to deal with but little risk ..
> 
> Try to time buys and sells , freaking out and bailing out when you should be buying and mismatching the time frame you want the money are all bad investor behavior that cost them in the end


I have ONE fund in my IRA with Vanguard, I don't really care for funds.  I prefer ETFs and individual stocks.  ETFs for safety of number of companies they own, and individual stocks for the excitement of ''gambling'' since they're more volatile.  My favorite ETF is QQQ and I hope to buy SPY when it goes on sale.  I have a few other ETFs, of course.  In individual stocks I like volatile ones like TSLA and NVDA and SQ and recently I bought and wish I had bought more of AVAV (drones, bought at $50 and now at 58.62, not bad).  I gravitate to futuristic stocks, even bought some of IPOA (Virgin Galactic), they will merge on Oct 23 (or so they say).


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## oldmontana (Oct 17, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Any time I hear someone use the words PLAYING THE MARKET odds are pretty good they don’t understand much about investing...



Well said....its investing in the market...its buying stocks in companies.

If you can not stand the ups and downs of the market do not invest.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 17, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> Well said....its investing in the market...its buying stocks in companies.
> 
> If you can not stand the ups and downs of the market do not invest.


People do the wrong thing all the time ..with little knowledge they speculate in individual stocks ...they have little clue about financial things yet they are trying to pick the right company , in the right sector , at the right time ,in the right part of the market cycle ....even if they lucked out and got all that correct ,they likely have no clue what the competitors have on their drawing board ...then they do poorly and blame markets and write investing off as gambling ....we have people who are still waiting for the roll back since 2008 and missed a 300-400% run up ......


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## fmdog44 (Nov 1, 2019)

Liberty said:


> So you are saying they are trying to get in or out to make more money, when the funds might say, for instance May 31- to May 30 year to year to determine fund status earnings or losses?


I think he is saying most new investors get the idea they can time the market when what they should do is stick with what they have instead of trying to out think what the stock or market is going to do. Ride out the lows and highs, think long term.


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 3, 2019)

I started investing in my late 30's after attending an investment seminar sponsored by what was then Dean Witter Reynolds.  I became very interested in learning the ropes and am basically a self taught investor only having used DWR's broker for a short time.  I tried Target funds, balanced funds (which bored me) and found out along the way my style is more of an aggressive nature. I switched from Target funds to utilities within the same brokerage and invested in other funds and ETFs at different brokerages over the years.  Within the last couple of years, I've consolidated my investments into 3 brokerages. The one I like best is Schwab. 

I shied away from private stocks until Facebook's IPO when I bought only 14 shares. I later bought 15 shares of Apple.  I know...a drop in the bucket but I'm basically leery of private stocks.

My biggest investing mistakes were 1. Taking distributions from mutual funds that were doing quite well (their share prices have more than doubled).  I wish I had built an emergency fund first and withdrawn from that.   2. Buying a highly touted mutual fund that changed it's objectives and lost money.  3. Listening to the "experts" again and buying shares of Fitbit.  The company seemed to be doing quite well but thank goodness I only bought 45 shares because it went from between $36 - $45 a share to less than $6 a share before I decided it wasn't going to rebound and dumped them.  On the up side, the Fitbit capital loss offset the capital gains I got that year and all of the investments I chose myself are doing quite well.  I didn't even lose money during the 2008 crash; I stayed invested and distributions I took from one of the formerly mentioned funds were at a profit.  I still "inhale" financial articles and reading them is somewhat a hobby for me.  Even though I've been retired for nearly 22 years, I'm still an active investor, preferring mutual funds and ETFs.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 4, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I started investing in my late 30's after attending an investment seminar sponsored by what was then Dean Witter Reynolds.  I became very interested in learning the ropes and am basically a self taught investor only having used DWR's broker for a short time.  I tried Target funds, balanced funds (which bored me) and found out along the way my style is more of an aggressive nature. I switched from Target funds to utilities within the same brokerage and invested in other funds and ETFs at different brokerages over the years.  Within the last couple of years, I've consolidated my investments into 3 brokerages. The one I like best is Schwab.
> 
> I shied away from private stocks until Facebook's IPO when I bought only 14 shares. I later bought 15 shares of Apple.  I know...a drop in the bucket but I'm basically leery of private stocks.
> 
> My biggest investing mistakes were 1. Taking distributions from mutual funds that were doing quite well (their share prices have more than doubled).  I wish I had built an emergency fund first and withdrawn from that.   2. Buying a highly touted mutual fund that changed it's objectives and lost money.  3. Listening to the "experts" again and buying shares of Fitbit.  The company seemed to be doing quite well but thank goodness I only bought 45 shares because it went from between $36 - $45 a share to less than $6 a share before I decided it wasn't going to rebound and dumped them.  On the up side, the Fitbit capital loss offset the capital gains I got that year and all of the investments I chose myself are doing quite well.  I didn't even lose money during the 2008 crash; I stayed invested and distributions I took from one of the formerly mentioned funds were at a profit.  I still "inhale" financial articles and reading them is somewhat a hobby for me.  Even though I've been retired for nearly 22 years, I'm still an active investor, preferring mutual funds and ETFs.



a mix of bond funds and stock funds rebalanced provides cash for spending just fine even with no cash buckets for spending .

in fact spending down from 100% equities has worked fine simply because the weight and drag of holding cash  has negated the effects of spending down directly from equities .

our minds like cash buffers but research shows they are only a mirage  and spending down even in down markets has not been a problem  with 100% stocks because the up years are so much greater .

holding cash is a mental comfort but adds no value financially .

kitces did a lot of research on having cash buffers .  for the record i do hold a cash buffer for spending down from .

https://www.kitces.com/blog/are-retirement-bucket-strategies-an-asset-allocation-mirage/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/researc...s-dont-work-unless-youre-a-good-market-timer/
https://www.kitces.com/blog/are-cash-reserve-retirement-strategies-really-necessary/


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 4, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> a mix of bond funds and stock funds rebalanced provides cash for spending just fine even with no cash buckets for spending .
> 
> in fact spending down from 100% equities has worked fine simply because the weight and drag of holding cash  has negated the effects of spending down directly from equities .
> 
> ...


FYI Mathjak....I am Muslim and Muslim's do not generally invest in bonds and products that pay interest (Riba). We're instructed not to deal with Riba for it was seen as something Haram (bad for us). If you see how many people are in financial ruin due to interest they cannot get out from under, you'll understand why it was mandated over 1,400 years ago that we don't pay it or charge it.  Within the last couple of years, however, I consulted an Islamic advisor who said scholars are now saying a very small amount of interest is considered acceptable but it's still best to avoid it when possible.  For this reason I have not had any bond funds or CDs since accepting Islam.  Dividends and capital gains are a whole nother "animal" so obviously we are permitted to invest in vehicles that pay those.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 4, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> FYI Mathjak....I am Muslim and Muslim's do not generally invest in bonds and products that pay interest (Riba). We're instructed not to deal with Riba for it was seen as something Haram (bad for us). If you see how many people are in financial ruin due to interest they cannot get out from under, you'll understand why it was mandated over 1,400 years ago that we don't pay it or charge it.  Within the last couple of years, however, I consulted an Islamic advisor who said scholars are now saying a very small amount of interest is considered acceptable but it's still best to avoid it when possible.  For this reason I have not had any bond funds or CDs since accepting Islam.  Dividends and capital gains are a whole nother "animal" so obviously we are permitted to invest in vehicles that pay those.



I would think there are specialists in this kind of planning because stocks are stocks and dividends do not act nor are they a proxy for interest … so it looks like to a simple mind like mine that you need to have zero return on a large chunk of cash and then have equities  dividends or not …. so I would imagine there are advisers with products that can work within the bounds


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 4, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> I would think there are specialists in this kind of planning because stocks are stocks and dividends do not act nor are they a proxy for interest … so it looks like to a simple mind like mine that you need to have zero return on a large chunk of cash and then have equities  dividends or not …. so I would imagine there are advisers with products that can work within the bounds


Absolutely. There is a company which has three funds that adhere to Islamic investing principles, the Saturna company and Amana funds.  But there are "non-Islamic" funds that are also acceptable. We also can't invest in companies that feature gambling, pork, alcohol, etc. products. The best way is to keep it simple. The less companies a fund has, the easier it is to keep track of and adhere to the principles, bearing in mind that a very minute amount of interest is now permissible.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 4, 2019)

I would think self directed Ira accounts are a good way to go so you can control things ....


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 5, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> I would think self directed Ira accounts are a good way to go so you can control things ....


I agree.  Most of my investments are in IRAs.  68% are in Roths and 11% in a Traditional account (which I don't pay taxes on either because my RMDs are direct donations to St. Jude. The only reason the remaining investments are not in IRA accounts is because I retired almost 22 years ago, so obviously could no longer contribute to those.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 5, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I agree.  Most of my investments are in IRAs.  68% are in Roths and 11% in a Traditional account (which I don't pay taxes on either because my RMDs are direct donations to St. Jude. The only reason the remaining investments are not in IRA accounts is because I retired almost 22 years ago, so obviously could no longer contribute to those.


nice ... since we contribute to st jude i may do it direct when it is rmd time . still to young thankfully


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## California-Gal (Nov 16, 2019)

401k- Started at age 50 when company introduced it.

*What will the 401k do for me if everything goes smoothly?*
1. Keep me off Medicaid, hopefully. An otherwise possible destination for about 5 vulnerable yrs (age 72-77 or so)
2. A little extra spending $

Health issues, our whole lives, kept us just above poverty level.
Earning too much for welfare (which we never wanted) yet too little  to cover basic needs properly (healthy food was very expensive for yrs)

RMD's will cover our Medicare & Supplement costs starting at 72 w/ my current indemnity plan -& part of our retirement pkg.
Currently my only healthcare is a 6k HDHP+ Indemnity plan.

Contribution is 5%+ 4% match to S&P 500.

*$10 mo. Indemnity Plan*
-1k yr dental/eye
-25k life & ad&d
-$25 doctor/specialist visits/chiropractor/pt/accupuncture
-$10-$25 labs/xrays/bloodwork
-$8/$10 meds
-$200 Ambulance/Air Rides
-$100 ER visits
$50 Cat Scans, MRI, etc
$100 day in hospital or skilled nursing facility for up to 90 days


Hopefully we'll not need more than 1.5 yrs of LTC or we're screwed. It's medicaid time.

I'll try to work, at least p/t+ until age 75
Cycling 3x a week for 1 1/2 hrs in the hills will hopefully keep us fit.
Husband is retiring soon at 62. He has health issues


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