# If Russia Attacks Ukraine



## fmdog44 (Jan 15, 2022)

We cannot win a conventional war in Europe against Russia. Russia will not tolerate Ukraine entering NATO. To my thinking, there is little that can be done to stop them. Russia may be trying to pull off a Hitler in Poland move saying Ukraine fired first. Scary stuff any way you look at it.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2022)

I see no advantage to NATO if Ukraine is asked to join.  I don't think it's worth it to constantly tickle the prickly Russia.  It's not the cold war after all.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 15, 2022)

The thing that bothers me most about this issue is Putin and Biden talking over the heads of the people in Ukraine like they are the last slice of pizza in the box.

IMO the Ukrainian's should be leading these discussions about their future and the free nations of the world should be willing to support them without any single nation stepping in to take the lead.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2022)

Ukraine is corrupt, and always had problems, i.e. the White Russians, the cossacks.  I know that's a long time ago, but the feeling persists through the decades.


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## Packerjohn (Jan 15, 2022)

There always have been wars and there always will be.  Too bad.  The world is greatly over populated but I wish they used birth control instead of war machines which waste such resources.  Maybe it's a good way to install some discipline in the "me" generation which doesn't seem to have any feelings for anyone other than themselves.  My father, who died in 1962, used to say that this country needs a war to discipline the young hoodlums.  Maybe the old guy was right?


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2022)

No, @Packerjohn, the old guy was not right.


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## JaniceM (Jan 15, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> There always have been wars and there always will be.  Too bad.  The world is greatly over populated but I wish they used birth control instead of war machines which waste such resources.  Maybe it's a good way to install some discipline in the "me" generation which doesn't seem to have any feelings for anyone other than themselves.  My father, who died in 1962, used to say that this country needs a war to discipline the young hoodlums.  Maybe the old guy was right?


You seem to forget-  "the 'Me' generation" was _ours.  _


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## JaniceM (Jan 15, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> We cannot win a conventional war in Europe against Russia. Russia will not tolerate Ukraine entering NATO. To my thinking, there is little that can be done to stop them. Russia may be trying to pull off a Hitler in Poland move saying Ukraine fired first. Scary stuff any way you look at it.


and as the U.S. has quite a long history of getting involved when they/we shouldn't, my personal concern is for 4 family members currently in the military-  including one of my kids.  
What the * was the purpose of ending involvement in Afghanistan if only to find another war zone to send "our troops"?!


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## Don M. (Jan 15, 2022)

IMO, the best advice for our government was spoken by Teddy Roosevelt, years ago...."Speak Softly, but Carry a Big Stick".  

Virtually ALL of the military "engagements" the U.S. has become involved in, since WWII, have become a major Fiasco....resulting in little other than a waste of our resources and lives.  

Let other nations do as they wish, with the clear understanding that if we are attacked, the retaliation will be very harsh.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 15, 2022)

This is a hard one, I'd sure like to see an independent Ukraine, but I also don't want yet another unending war.  Or any war for that matter.

Hopefully cooler heads and diplomacy will prevail.


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## Irwin (Jan 15, 2022)

We screwed ourselves with our invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. We gained absolutely nothing from all the lives and money lost by those actions and we lost all credibility in world affairs which we won't see again in our lifetime. Russia knows that's we're not going to protect Ukraine because we can't; we don't have the will or the money. We might just as well hold the door for them as they encroach into their neighbor's sovereignty.

If we did want to protect Ukraine, our best option would be to send in troops right now and engage in a standoff with Russia on the border. It would eventually end in a stalemate. Hopefully. But there's no way the U.S. is going to do that. That would have been an option if not for our Iraq/Afghanistan blunders. Now, the only recourses we have at our disposal are sanctions and embargos, and those actions will hurt the people of Russia far more than it will affect the oligarchs who caused the problems.


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## Pepper (Jan 15, 2022)

Irwin said:


> those actions will hurt the people of Russia far more than it will affect the oligarchs who caused the problems.


Don't worry, they're all here in my co-op.  Just kidding.  Most of them are Ukrainians.  Any Jew with a brain left Ukraine they told me.  My four building co-op has become mostly Russian & Ukrainian over the years.  Many languages are spoken around here, but in the main it's Russian & dialects of that.

My grandma, from Odessa called herself Russian.  All her friends & acquaintances from that area said they were Russians.  If my memory is correct, Ukraine was part of, or absorbed by Russia. Kruschchev, as a gift to his Ukrainian born wife, granted separate status to Ukraine.  I'm not gonna look this up, so tell me if my memory is wrong.

Russia is currently barking that they will have physical presence in Venezuela, Cuba.  They see this as the same as the west inviting Ukraine into NATO.  They feel as threatened by that as we do about them.  Putin wants assurance we won't back Ukraine's entry into NATO.  I think we should give him that assurance.

It's like a broken record, playing the same dirge over & over.

View attachment 203830


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## Flaneuse (Jan 15, 2022)

@Pepper - Your grandmother likely sees Ukraine as part of the former USSR, of which Russia was the most prominent republic.  Some Ukrainians are certainly ethnic Russians (especially in the east) but not all and this doesn't justify Russia's attempts to reabsorb what is an independent nation.  If we give in to Putin on this - what do we give in on next?  Putin is a (murdering) bully and I believe in standing up to bullies, not letting them have their way.


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## Lavinia (Jan 15, 2022)

This is the reason why Ukraine wanted to join the EU....for the military support. In my opinion, we shouldn't get involved...it's between Russia and the Ukraine.
The big worry though is if Putin is not content with regaining Ukraine....what if he wants to claim back all of the former Soviet countries?


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## ElCastor (Jan 16, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Ukraine is corrupt, and always had problems, i.e. the White Russians, the cossacks.  I know that's a long time ago, but the feeling persists through the decades.


Ukraine has had problems alright -- as in the Holodomor famine engineered by Stalin to seize the land of family farmers, a famine that took the lives of nearly 4 million Ukrainians. Today's WSJ has an interesting piece on Putin's motives. If he proceeds, his reason for seizing Ukraine may be domestic -- an attempt to appease his critics at home.


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## Pepper (Jan 16, 2022)

Flaneuse said:


> @Pepper - Your grandmother likely sees Ukraine as part of the former USSR, of which Russia was the most prominent republic.


Grandma, and her friends mentioned, were lucky enough to have left before there was a USSR.  It was still Russia.


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## JimBob1952 (Jan 16, 2022)

We won't fight for Ukraine.  I don't think Putin really wants it, either.  He doesn't have the resources to occupy it.  What he really wants, I couldn't tell you.


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## Chet (Jan 16, 2022)

I can see Putin’s concern in a way. Ukraine becoming part of NATO would be similar to Khrushchev's missiles in Cuba, but Khrushchev had aggressive intentions while NATO’s are defensive. Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one  means any harm to them.


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## Alligatorob (Jan 16, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> What he really wants, I couldn't tell you.


International recognition that the Crimea is his?


Chet said:


> Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one means any harm to them.


Russia has a very long history of being invaded, think of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler.  The need to protect their borders by this kind of thing is deep seeded.  I don't think it makes sense in today's world but I suspect this is much of what's behind it.


Irwin said:


> We screwed ourselves with our invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.


Agree completely on Iraq, no reason for that and it was a disaster.  Afghanistan ended in disaster as well, but we did have a valid reason for the initial invasion.  Had we left once Al Qaeda and Bin Laden were out things might look different now.  Neither the Taliban nor anyone else in Afghanistan had much of anything to do with the 9-11 attacks...


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## OneEyedDiva (Jan 16, 2022)

I think the U.S. should expend more energy to fix it's own problems rather than always meddling in the business of other countries! It costs time, money and most importantly it costs lives.


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## Tish (Jan 17, 2022)

The U.S. and allies need to stay as far away from this situation as possible.
There is nothing to be gained from interfering.


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## Packerjohn (Jan 17, 2022)

No matter where and no matter when, the trouble with all wars is that they are always caused by politicians.  Then when the fighting starts the troops are called up.  Who goes to the front lines?  Vladimir Putin?  Joe Biden?  The politicians who started the war? Right?  Definitely wrong?  The people who go to the front, get killed or lose a leg or arm or get brain damaged are boys (or we might call them young men and these days it could also be young gals).  These troops often come from the farms, the working class or young people who watched too many John Wayne movies and want "the glory of war."  There is very little glory in real war.

I read somewhere if we sent the politicians who caused the war to the front lines there would never be a war.


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## Flaneuse (Jan 17, 2022)

Chet said:


> I can see Putin’s concern in a way. Ukraine becoming part of NATO would be similar to Khrushchev's missiles in Cuba, but Khrushchev had aggressive intentions while NATO’s are defensive. Why does Russia insist on being the big bully anyway? It’s probably an ego thing because no one  means any harm to them.


 Putin thinks that the greatest mistake for Russia was breaking up the Soviet Union and he wants it back.  As Wendy Sherman questioned:  what is Putin worried about?  As @Chet said, NATO is a defensive organization.   However, Putin will stop at nothing to get what he wants.  Although it's never been proven, there are those who believe he was behind the Moscow apartment bombings.   Once a bully, always a bully.


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## fmdog44 (Jan 17, 2022)

Flaneuse said:


> Putin thinks that the greatest mistake for Russia was breaking up the Soviet Union and he wants it back.  As Wendy Sherman questioned:  what is Putin worried about?  As @Chet said, NATO is a defensive organization.   However, Putin will stop at nothing to get what he wants.  Although it's never been proven, there are those who believe he was behind the Moscow apartment bombings.   Once a bully, always a bully.


BULLSEYE! Ukraine is a stepping stone to the new and improved USSR.


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## Irwin (Jan 17, 2022)

Well, we could flood Ukraine with weapons so if Putin invades, it will cost him dearly. We could fly drones over the border and provide Ukraine with intelligence. We could advocate for the admission of Ukraine into NATO even though it won't happen, but it would infuriate Putin. We could step up sanctions and embargoes on Russia if Russia doesn't back off.

What else? We could give Russia a bad Yelp rating.


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## fmdog44 (Jan 19, 2022)

Why _wait_ to give them arms?


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## Pepper (Jan 19, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> Why _wait_ to give them arms?


Give them weapons so the Soviet Union er, Russia, can just invade and snap them up?


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## HarryHawk (Jan 19, 2022)

fmdog44 said:


> Why _wait_ to give them arms?


Last time Russia invaded the Ukraine, we didn't provide and arms.  Why would we now?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-leader-calls-for-more-western-military-aid-1411055160

_President Barack Obama stuck to his refusal to provide weapons or other lethal military gear to Ukraine, despite a passionate appeal Thursday for help in fighting pro-Russia rebels by Ukraine's president.

The White House announced a new $53 million aid package for Ukraine, which includes counter-mortar radar, radios, vehicles, patrol boats, body armor, helmets and night-vision goggles. But it stopped short of providing weapons or other lethal aid the Ukrainians have been seeking.

In his speech to Congress, Mr. Poroshenko specifically asked Washington for lethal aid. "Blankets and night-vision goggles are important," he said. "But one cannot win a war with blankets."_


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## Islander (Jan 19, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> International recognition that the Crimea is his?
> 
> Russia has a very long history of being invaded, think of the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler.  The need to protect their borders by this kind of thing is deep seeded.  I don't think it makes sense in today's world but I suspect this is much of what's behind it.
> 
> Agree completely on Iraq, no reason for that and it was a disaster.  Afghanistan ended in disaster as well, but we did have a valid reason for the initial invasion.  Had we left once Al Qaeda and Bin Laden were out things might look different now.  Neither the Taliban nor anyone else in Afghanistan had much of anything to do with the 9-11 attacks...


I agree with you on Russia's motives.  It appears to be similar to Putin's attempts to regain a buffer zone between Russia and NATO.  Ukraine is only the most intense right now.  Look at the unrest all along the border with Russia.  

As to Afghanistan, if you recall, the military did not want to go into that graveyard of empires.  What ensued was a hot potato competition between the military and CIA.  CIA initially got the assignment and attempted to build an alliance with the Northern Alliance to go into Tora Bora to track down Bin Laden.  Unfortunately, the Talaban killed a senior leader in the Northern Alliance and the whole thing fell apart.  I suspect that a strong contributing factor was the onset of winter and the Afghanis knew better than to venture into the mountains, especially without their leader.  It went down hill from there.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CPRT-111SPRT53709/html/CPRT-111SPRT53709.htm
See also, JAWBREAKER by Gary Berntsen, a first hand report by the CIA guy who led the search for Bin Laden in Tora Bora.


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## Packerjohn (Jan 23, 2022)

So soon we forget and our media sure is not going to remind us of the time the USSR put those missiles on Cuban soil.  Kennedy was the president and the event is remembered in history as "The Cuban Missile Crisis."  The date was October, 1962; well remembered by folks my age.  I was "sweet" sixteen; if you can believe it!

The Americans put missiles in Italy and Turkey so the Russians put them in Cuba.  "What is good for the goose is good for the gander" they say!  To make a long story short, the US did not like the missiles close to their country.  You might say that Putin doesn't like the Nato close to his border.  Oh those silly boys, Putin and Biden!


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## hawkdon (Jan 23, 2022)

I sure do remember Cuban Missile Crisis !!! Was a communications technician USN, stationed in Maine, after Kennedy made his speech, about 30 mins, several of us had orders to fly to Key West Fla to keep our ears open for whatever was going on in Cuba....it was a good way to spend the winter!!!!!


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## mrstime (Jan 23, 2022)

Does anyone else think Putin's timing is strange?


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## Pepper (Jan 23, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Does anyone else think Putin's timing is strange?


Can you explain?  Sounds very interesting.


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## debodun (Jan 23, 2022)

Gog and Magog

 Revelation 20:7–8


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## Don M. (Jan 23, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> So soon we forget and our media sure is not going to remind us of the time the USSR put those missiles on Cuban soil.  Kennedy was the president and the event is remembered in history as "The Cuban Missile Crisis."  The date was October, 1962; well remembered by folks my age.  I was "sweet" sixteen; if you can believe it!



For Sure!  I was stationed in Germany in1962, with the USAF.  Most people don't realize just how close we came to Armageddon during that crisis.  We came within minutes of "launch".  I sometimes think that the majority of our nations leaders flunked History while in school.


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## mrstime (Jan 23, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Can you explain?  Sounds very interesting.


Well, a previous president really liked Putin. So he waited for a president who obviously dislikes him.


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## ElCastor (Jan 23, 2022)

hawkdon said:


> I sure do remember Cuban Missile Crisis !!! Was a communications technician USN, stationed in Maine, after Kennedy made his speech, about 30 mins, several of us had orders to fly to Key West Fla to keep our ears open for whatever was going on in Cuba....it was a good way to spend the winter!!!!!


And I was on my way to OCS. I had driven out from California on a southern route. On my way up the East Coast to Newport I saw several army trucks headed south.


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## RadishRose (Jan 23, 2022)

mrstime said:


> Well, a previous president really liked Putin. So he waited for a president who obviously dislikes him.


That makes no sense to me.


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## oldpop (Jan 24, 2022)

It may or may not happen. Either way money will be the deciding factor. JMO


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