# T-Shirt Controversy



## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

This past Saturday was in Wal Mart w/my wife. Wife was looking at toothpaste and a black lady next to her was wearing a t-shirt that said "Justice For Jordan". I looked at her and said "not everyone is going to agree with your t-shirt". She didn't take it very well of what I said and told us, "I'm part of the family". I told her, "you just have to be ready if someone doesn't agree with you and the t-shirt." She didn't like me saying that either. I then told her, "sorry about how you feel about what I said, but with respect ma'am, you are the one wearing the t-shirt, not me." She looked like she was going to take our photo, so I grabbed my wife and we walked away. 

Later I told my wife, "it would have been much better if the lady would have simply said "yes, you are right", and left it at that.......after I made the first comment about the t-shirt. But, she didn't. 

This isn't the first time I've talked to someone in Wal Mart, even though many people do get shocked that a stranger would talk to them. I just happen to like to talk and if a person is wearing a "debatable" t-shirt, I might say something to them.

Your thoughts.


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## Davey Jones (Sep 29, 2014)

Im not like you I prefer to just mind my own business.
You need to be careful what you're saying to strangers nowaday,most of those freaks are armed.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Problem is, in "mind my own business", too many people simply get away with whatever. True, that many strangers are armed, but when a person has an "outgoing" type personality, the word "talking" is going to happen. Actually, the person confronting the person wearing the t-shirt could be armed and not like what the t-shirt says........what might happen then? 



Davey Jones said:


> Im not like you I prefer to just mind my own business.
> You need to be careful what you're saying to strangers nowaday,most of those freaks are armed.


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## Falcon (Sep 29, 2014)

Right on the mark Davey.  He's lucky he didn't get smacked.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Why would she smack me??? In doing that, she'd go to jail! That is an assault charge. Would you hit someone in public who said something about what was written on a t-shirt or ball cap you were wearing? 



Falcon said:


> Right on the mark Davey.  He's lucky he didn't get smacked.


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## Falcon (Sep 29, 2014)

It's safer to "mind your own business !"


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

I'll remember that, but........


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## QuickSilver (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't believe wearing a T-shirt is an invitation to a stranger to make a comment.. either positive or negative.  I think it falls under the nunya classification... as in Nunya business.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Sorry, just NOT a "Nunya business" type of guy! Shoot, most people wouldn't be on this forum, giving opinions, if they felt that way (Nunya business)!!


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## Jackie22 (Sep 29, 2014)

I can't help wondering if you would've walked up to a big 6' muscular black man and said the same.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Of course not!! I'm not stupid!



Jackie22 said:


> I can't help wondering if you would've walked up to a big 6' muscular black man and said the same.


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## Jackie22 (Sep 29, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Of course not!! I'm not stupid!



...lol, so in that case you would be a "Nunya business" type of guy.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, let's look at it this way..........would any of you wear a "very controversial" type t-shirt into a public place *KNOWING* that *ANYONE* could confront you about it???? Wearing it in Stanford during a Rally, where others are wearing the same t-shirt, is one thing, wearing it, by yourself, out in public, is another. IMO

And, YES, sometimes I am a "Nunya business" type of guy. After all these years, I know *who* to speak to *about what*. 

What I'm still wondering about is.........all the people on here that give their opinions about things. Seems to me that a number of Threads done on here would get the "Nunya business" replies, but they don't.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 29, 2014)

No.... because going up to someone and making negative comments about their shirt is RUDE.   She was expressing HER opinion.. Not asking for yours


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Didn't make a negative comment about the t-shirt........actually stayed neutral about it and told her that. If she took my comment as "negative", that's her fault, not mine. I didn't defend either Jordan or Dunn. All I said was that her t-shirt could be very controversial. All she would have had to say is, "your right" and walked away. That was it! 
Gotta remember, when expressing an opinion about something, whether it's in speech or clothing, the person has to be ready for others opinions. It was absolutely NOT "rude" of me to say something to her. What is "rude" to some is "just talk/questions" to others. Some people love humor, even "sarcastic" type humor, while others hate it. My wife loves it that I'm not a quiet type person like her BIL is and girlfriend's husband is. 

There are a few ladies, in the complex we live in, that wife and I are sure that they think "why on earth would she (my wife) be with that guy?" My wife has told me, "I would just tell them that I love his humor and that he likes to do the same things I like to do. You don't want a guy like that and that is up to you. But, for me, he's perfect." 

Gosh, I love my wife!!


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## Debby (Sep 29, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> This past Saturday was in Wal Mart w/my wife. Wife was looking at toothpaste and a black lady next to her was wearing a t-shirt that said "Justice For Jordan". I looked at her and said "not everyone is going to agree with your t-shirt". She didn't take it very well of what I said and told us, "I'm part of the family". I told her, "you just have to be ready if someone doesn't agree with you and the t-shirt." She didn't like me saying that either. I then told her, "sorry about how you feel about what I said, but with respect ma'am, you are the one wearing the t-shirt, not me." She looked like she was going to take our photo, so I grabbed my wife and we walked away.
> 
> Later I told my wife, "it would have been much better if the lady would have simply said "yes, you are right", and left it at that.......after I made the first comment about the t-shirt. But, she didn't.
> 
> ...




Sounds like you are braver than lots of us. You didn't say exactly what the lady said, but maybe she wore the shirt to make a statement on her opinion, but didn't actually expect anyone to actually discuss it with her and so wasn't prepared?  I'm one of those quiet people (in person) that wouldn't say anything.  As long as you're respectful, I think you have the right to engage.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Didn't seem like a "brave" move to me, at the time. Actually, it did seem like she wasn't ready for anyone to "call her out" on the t-shirt. I was totally respectful towards her, but she just didn't want to hear that the t-shirt could be looked at as "controversial", as I told her. Guess, she thought that everyone would simply........smile, pat her on the back and say......."good job" for wearing it.  I didn't do that and she got upset that I didn't. Guess she thought I was all for what Dunn did to Jordon.......completely wrong! Actually, I wasn't taking a "stance" on anything, anyone. Just telling the lady that there are people that wouldn't agree with the t-shirt as well as there would be those that would agree.


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## Shirley (Sep 29, 2014)

I think that black lady showed remarkable restraint in the face of what was obviously a racist remark. Kudos to her.


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## Falcon (Sep 29, 2014)

:beatdeadhorse:    :blah:   :blah:       WHEW!


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## Debby (Sep 29, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Didn't seem like a "brave" move to me, at the time. Actually, it did seem like she wasn't ready for anyone to "call her out" on the t-shirt. I was totally respectful towards her, but she just didn't want to hear that the t-shirt could be looked at as "controversial", as I told her. Guess, she thought that everyone would simply........smile, pat her on the back and say......."good job" for wearing it.  I didn't do that and she got upset that I didn't. Guess she thought I was all for what Dunn did to Jordon.......completely wrong! Actually, I wasn't taking a "stance" on anything, anyone. Just telling the lady that there are people that wouldn't agree with the t-shirt as well as there would be those that would agree.




Well to you what's normal, to someone else is brave right?  We're all different. 

So maybe that lady was so upset by what she's firmly convinced is some kind of miscarriage of justice, that she can't conceive of anyone not being of the same mind.  Maybe she did expect everyone would approve.  There's nothing wrong with that really is there? I don't know anything about the incident that her shirt referred to so that's kind of a general observation/suggestion.

Or maybe she just completely misunderstood the point you were making.  Could that be it?


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## Debby (Sep 29, 2014)

Shirley said:


> I think that black lady showed remarkable restraint in the face of what was obviously a racist remark. Kudos to her.




Just curious why you think what Davey said was racist?  I didn't perceive it that way at all from what his OP said.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 29, 2014)

Haven't got a clue on how I was racist, but.........whatever! 

But, while at Wal Mart, I did tell a 30 something white couple about the t-shirt and what I said and they agreed with me when I told them that I told her, "don't wear it if you don't want anyone to say something about it".

A black guy that we know at Home Depot, who serves hotdogs/sausages outside, agreed with me when I told him what happened. 

So, you folks disagree with me about what I did, but there are some, like the ones above, that did agree with me. That's all I care about!

Or, should I say........"Nunya business" just doesn't apply to me! LOL

Thanks for reading the Thread. Think I'm done now. Thank God!


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## Ina (Sep 29, 2014)

I was once told that if I had a mouth that would say my opinions, I had better have ears that listened well. :wave:


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## QuickSilver (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't wear shirts with words on them... However, If I were to wear one, I would imagine I would have to care a lot about the sentiment expressed.  If a total stranger came up to me to discuss it... particularly if he/she seemed to be of the opposite view... I wouldn't appreciate the intrusion.   AND I would let them know it, in no uncertain terms.  I do NOT believe that making a "clothing statement" is an invitation to be approached and annoyed.  I just don't understand the view that a tee shirt invites conversation with a stranger..  It's rude and intrusive..


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## Falcon (Sep 29, 2014)

*exactly*!  Qs


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## Warrigal (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't understand the context of this conversation but I have sometimes found T shirts with very ****** connotations offensive to look at. I have on occasions told men just that when they have been standing in front of me expecting me to converse with them. To me, it is the same thing as them saying these things in my presence or to my face. There is a lack of respect for my age and my gender IMO. I tell them that I am not impressed and walk away.

Political statements invite challenge. I'm always up for that sort of challenge. I'm not sure about issues of justice. I think I would ignore those because I believe in leaving these matters to the courts but realise that sometimes justice needs a bit of a prod to wake it up.


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## Butterfly (Sep 29, 2014)

I would never comment on a stranger's clothing, except maybe to say "what a lovely dress," if I thought so.


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## Warrigal (Sep 29, 2014)

Normally, Butterfly, that is my way too, but some T shirts are so in-your-face provocative that I think a response is justified.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 30, 2014)

Your wife probably deserves a pension...


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## oldman (Sep 30, 2014)

Just curious, but is this the guy that shot at some kids in a car in Florida for having their music too loud?


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## MaggieJewel (Sep 30, 2014)

I disagree... if a person says something in public (including saying things by what is on a T-shirt) they should be prepare for comments agreeing or disagreeing.  Free speech works both ways.


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## Meanderer (Sep 30, 2014)

View attachment 10042


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## Meanderer (Sep 30, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Your wife probably deserves a pension...


Very funny Ralphy!  We have to remember that when we're out with our Wife, we shouldn't put her "in harm's way" like that.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

MaggieJewel said:


> I disagree... if a person says something in public (including saying things by what is on a T-shirt) they should be prepare for comments agreeing or disagreeing. Free speech works both ways.



Suppose you have a sign in your yard.. maybe a political sign... maybe a social issue sign. Is it OK for someone to come up to your door and pick a fight with you? Is it ok for them to ring your bell to discuss it? It's not much different with a tee shirt. It's on YOUR body.. so that makes it your personal space.. why does someone have the right to intrude on you? Personal space is personal space.. Freedom of speech, and the right to express your feelings in a nonviolent non- confrontational manner is a RIGHT... I suppose you could argue that it gives the right to someone to confront you but the act itself can be viewed as intrusionary and confrontational, therefore not protected.


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## Jackie22 (Sep 30, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Suppose you have a sign in your yard.. maybe a political sign... maybe a social issue sign. Is it OK for someone to come up to your door and pick a fight with you? Is it ok for them to ring your bell to discuss it? It's not much different with a tee shirt. It's on YOUR body.. so that makes it your personal space.. why does someone have the right to intrude on you? Personal space is personal space.. Freedom of speech, and the right to express your feelings in a nonviolent non- confrontational manner is a RIGHT... I suppose you could argue that it gives the right to someone to confront you but the act itself can be viewed as intrusionary and confrontational, therefore not protected.



Agreed....or what about baseball caps with your favorite baseball/football team on it....how many men here wear them.... image someone coming up to you and telling you that 'you had better be ready for opposing views if you're going to wear it'.


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## Debby (Sep 30, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> Suppose you have a sign in your yard.. maybe a political sign... maybe a social issue sign. Is it OK for someone to come up to your door and pick a fight with you? Is it ok for them to ring your bell to discuss it? It's not much different with a tee shirt. It's on YOUR body.. so that makes it your personal space.. why does someone have the right to intrude on you? Personal space is personal space.. Freedom of speech, and the right to express your feelings in a nonviolent non- confrontational manner is a RIGHT... I suppose you could argue that it gives the right to someone to confront you but the act itself can be viewed as intrusionary and confrontational, therefore not protected.




Well if you reread Davey's opening comment, and if it is an accurate representation of what transpired, then he wasn't confrontational or rude or violent.  My read was that he was simply saying, 'some people might not agree with you - are you prepared to be approached?'.

 I would think freedom of speech only guarantees that you have the right to say something.  It doesn't guarantee that someone won't say something back.

In fact, here is what the US Courts have to say about that particular freedom.http://www.uscourts.gov/educational...n-activities/first-amendment/free-speech.aspx

Freedom of speech includes the right:

.not to speak (you don't have to salute the flag)
.right to protest the war(s)
.to use offensive language to convey political messages
.to contribute money to political campaigns
.to advertise commercial products and services
.to engage in symbolic speech (i.e. burning the flag)

It does not include:
.the right to incite actions that would harm others
.to make or distribute obscene materials
.to burn draft cards as war protest
.the right to print articles in student newspapers over the objections of the school admin.
.the right of students to make and obscene speech at a school sponsored event
.the right of students to advocate illegal drug use at a school event


Nowhere does it say that I can't discuss the printing on someone else's shirt.  That probably wouldn't even be covered under privacy laws I would think if you are wearing it in a public place.  I might be wrong on that because I wasn't in the mood to wade through some Harvard grads dissertation, but if you can find where it is covered under privacy laws, I'd be happy to read it.
*F*


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

> Nowhere does it say that I can't discuss the printing on someone else's shirt. That probably wouldn't even be covered under privacy laws I would think if you are wearing it in a public place. I might be wrong on that because I wasn't in the mood to wade through some Harvard grads dissertation, but if you can find where it is covered under privacy laws, I'd be happy to read it.




*It also doesn't say that if you aproach a stranger they cannot tell you to get the heck away from them or call store security for being accosted..  It also doesn't prevent a jealous husband for bopping a guy in the nose for aproaching his wife and upsetting her.   Lot's of consquences could be involved.   Isn't it just better to shut your mouth and ignore a tee shirt?   Is anything THAT important that one feels the need to make a scene over disagreeing with a sentiment on a tee shirt?   AND yes... it IS accosting.

[h=2]Definition of accost (vt)[/h]Bing Dictionary


ac·cost
[ ə káwst ]


approach and stop somebody: to approach and stop somebody in order to speak to that person, especially in an aggressive, insistent, or suggestive way
synonyms: approach · stop · confront · detain · buttonhole · hound



*


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## Debby (Sep 30, 2014)

Jackie22 said:


> .....imagine someone coming up to you and telling you that 'you had better be ready for opposing views if you're going to wear it'.






Is there something wrong with somebody saying what you suggested?  Depending on the tone of delivery, at face value, I really don't think it's rude or confrontational or violent or....more like a statement of what might happen.


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## Debby (Sep 30, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> *It also doesn't say that if you aproach a stranger they cannot tell you to get the heck away from them or call store security for being accosted..  It also doesn't prevent a jealous husband for bopping a guy in the nose for aproaching his wife and upsetting her.   Lot's of consquences could be involved.   Isn't it just better to shut your mouth and ignore a tee shirt?   Is anything THAT important that one feels the need to make a scene over disagreeing with a sentiment on a tee shirt?   AND yes... it IS accosting.
> 
> Definition of accost (vt)
> 
> ...




Why add in all sorts of scenarios that have nothing to do with Davey's remarking on a T-shirt that was being worn in a public place?  And certainly the First Amendment doesn't protect anyone from violent offenders (note the use of the word 'offender' as in that person is willing to break the law) but it also protected Davey's right to make a comment on that publicly worn T-shirt.  And as he didn't 'accost anyone in a violent or aggressive way  I'm not sure why everyone wants to assume that he did or is at the very least making the implication that rudeness/aggression/violence was involved.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

Debby said:


> Is there something wrong with somebody say what you suggested? Depending on the tone of delivery, at face value, I really don't think it's rude or confrontational or violent or....more like a statement of what might happen.



 do you REALLY believe the middle of a WalMart is the place for political debate? Particularly uninvited unwelcome political debate? Seriously.. there are other venues more suitable. And as for being confrontational or not... is coming up to someone and advising them that they BETTER be prepared to defend their view expressed on their shirt anything but confrontational? In my book it's confrontational.. or at the very minimum a challenge.. no matter how nicely it's said.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 30, 2014)

Oh, I've done that before as well........in a kidding way towards the person. I'd see someone at Wal Mart wearing a Pittsburgh Steelers baseball cap or "t" and I'd say......"what the heck is a Ben fan doing living in Florida?" Said that with a smile and got a smile back. I was joking with them, not doing an "offensive" thing at all and they took what I said as a joke.

Wow folks, LIGHTEN UP!! Wearing an opposing teams baseball cap or t-shirt is a BIG difference than wearing a t-shirt that would be seen at a Justice Demonstration and could very well be controversial.  

When talking about what people wear, I remember some years back when some Mexican teens, in So California, were wearing t-shirts that said "Proud To Be Illegal" and how much people who were against illegal immigration hated those t-shirts and voiced their opinion about them!



Jackie22 said:


> Agreed....or what about baseball caps with your favorite baseball/football team on it....how many men here wear them.... image someone coming up to you and telling you that 'you had better be ready for opposing views if you're going to wear it'.


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

Not withstanding the fact that most Wal-mart shoppers should be issued fashion tickets, you are committing assault in the technical sense, especially if you stopped her or blocked her egress and ingress in any, which includes your demanding an answer. She could actually file charges against you, and if she had a speech or hearing or anyother disability, you would have been booked without any jabber. If she had of slapped you, it would of been difficult for you to prove assault and battery. It is difficult for most folks to understand "defensive perimeter" (Davey has a really hard time with it). If you approach someone in a public place, from a legal point of view, it is best to stay at arms length at the very least, and always use the first person singular. Using the word "you" changes the scenario drastically. Just the fact that a person is in "striking" distance (legally about 12 ft.) puts you at liability risk, civilly  and criminally.  The situation is past accosting, just hope it doesn't go further. 
Personally I love all those "civil unrest" tee-shirts-- some of the best humor the human species has to offer. But the best times at Wal-mart are when looking for the people who carry guns openly. I point at the weapon and give them a big thumbs up.  And most of the time they reply with a "Why thank you".


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## AprilT (Sep 30, 2014)

oldman said:


> Just curious, but is this the guy that shot at some kids in a car in Florida for having their music too loud?



Yes it is and one of the kids died.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 30, 2014)

Absolutely *NOTHING* was done like you wrote below! The lady was standing to my right/facing me, in the isle, and looking at her cell phone. My wife was standing to my left, looking at toothpaste on the shelf. I only made a comment about the "t"......nothing else! I did not "demand", as you call it, an answer or anything else from this lady! 
What I'd like to know is where in the heck you are coming up with this stuff that I didn't do???? 

As far as openly carrying a firearm here, have never seen it on anybody except law enforcement. Actually, I think it's illegal to do in Florida. Carrying a firearm, whether is "openly" or "concealed" is fine with me as long as the firearm is used for protection.........not b/c someone gets pissed off at someone else and decides to pull the firearm and shoot the person.  



rt3 said:


> Not withstanding the fact that most Wal-mart shoppers should be issued fashion tickets, you are committing assault in the technical sense, especially if you stopped her or blocked her egress and ingress in any, which includes your demanding an answer. She could actually file charges against you, and if she had a speech or hearing or anyother disability, you would have been booked without any jabber. If she had of slapped you, it would of been difficult for you to prove assault and battery. It is difficult for most folks to understand "defensive perimeter" (Davey has a really hard time with it). If you approach someone in a public place, from a legal point of view, it is best to stay at arms length at the very least, and always use the first person singular. Using the word "you" changes the scenario drastically. Just the fact that a person is in "striking" distance (legally about 12 ft.) puts you at liability risk, civilly  and criminally.  The situation is past accosting, just hope it doesn't go further.
> Personally I love all those "civil unrest" tee-shirts-- some of the best humor the human species has to offer. But the best times at Wal-mart are when looking for the people who carry guns openly. I point at the weapon and give them a big thumbs up.  And most of the time they reply with a "Why thank you".


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

> As far as openly carrying a firearm here, have never seen it on anybody except law enforcement. Actually, I think it's illegal to do in Florida. Carrying a firearm, whether is "openly" or "concealed" is fine with me as long as the firearm is used for protection.........not b/c someone gets pissed off at someone else and decides to pull the firearm and shoot the person.



Ahhh yes... every man, woman, and child locked and loaded at Walmart.. whatever could go wrong??  lol!!!


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

good-now that we have that clear. It is an open and free society (USA). Personally I think Dueling should be re-instated. You could challenge her, and since she was challenged then she gets to choose the weapon. If your lucky she would choose tiddley winks and you would luck out. If she was offended, and challenged you, you could choose toothpaste at 5 yards and neither one of you would have to go anywhere, just settle it there. 

Open carry is allowed in most free states, and usually municipalities put restrictions on it, which only apply to the borders of that town. Some municipalities violate the state statue and arrest the carrier on disturbing the peace.  I am not sure about the getting pissed off and shooting someone has to do with the open carry issue. It seems like the popular thing now is cutting off their head, (how do you conceal an axe?) sorry got side tracked. 

Some states, Wyoming, as an example, does not require the presence of physical harm, for a defense , ie the lady could have shot you and got away with it. Even in stand your ground states you would have a difficult time.   

there are two sides to every story, the events may or may not have happened as you relate them--  her side may be entirely different than yours, whether fact (whatever that is) or in agreement to yours is irrelevant.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

rt3 said:


> good-now that we have that clear. It is an open and free society (USA). Personally I think Dueling should be re-instated. You could challenge her, and since she was challenged then she gets to choose the weapon. If your lucky she would choose tiddley winks and you would luck out. If she was offended, and challenged you, you could choose toothpaste at 5 yards and neither one of you would have to go anywhere, just settle it there.
> 
> Open carry is allowed in most free states, and usually municipalities put restrictions on it, which only apply to the borders of that town. Some municipalities violate the state statue and arrest the carrier on disturbing the peace. I am not sure about the getting pissed off and shooting someone has to do with the open carry issue. It seems like the popular thing now is cutting off their head, (how do you conceal an axe?) sorry got side tracked.
> 
> ...



This of course would be a whole 'nother debate thread... However, I will say this..  If I were in a store and some Yahoo was walking around slinging a loaded gun over his shoulder.. Open carry legal or not.. I would leave the store, but not before telling the manager WHY... and follow it up with a letter to the Corporate headquarters.  But.. that's just me........ and a whole bunch of other sensible people.   Businesses are allowed to ban guns.. and if enough customers walk out... they will.


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

just sayin that perception of a set of events are different to each person. how they get played back to five oh, or in a courtroom are two different things. If one doesn't like what is on a T shirt and tells the other person etc., and things go south real bad, and that person is willing to endure the fall out, more power to them. 

as far as your leaving the store, manager etc.  I think that is great also. It makes the lines shorter.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

rt3 said:


> just sayin that perception of a set of events are different to each person. how they get played back to five oh, or in a courtroom are two different things. If one doesn't like what is on a T shirt and tells the other person etc., and things go south real bad, and that person is willing to endure the fall out, more power to them.
> 
> as far as your leaving the store, manager etc. I think that is great also. It makes the lines shorter.



Yeah... well just imagine that happening in an open carry state... and particularly a "Stand your Ground" state..  The lady felt threatened by a person approaching her and mentioning her t-shirt.. particularly a strange man.   All she needs to do is feel unsafe, or that she is in danger of a physical attack.  right?   KaBOOOM..   and she will win in court.  Who could prove otherwise?     

As for the lines...  I would much rather stand in longer lines of unarmed folks... than in short lines with folks who think we are in the wild wild west.. or Rambo wannabees.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 30, 2014)

Have to admit, was LOL when reading what I highlighted in red below. 



rt3 said:


> just sayin that perception of a set of events are different to each person. how they get played back to five oh, or in a courtroom are two different things. If one doesn't like what is on a T shirt and tells the other person etc., and things go south real bad, and that person is willing to endure the fall out, more power to them.
> 
> as far as your leaving the store, manager etc.  I think that is great also. It makes the lines shorter.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Have to admit, was LOL when reading what I highlighted in red below.




HUN.... you are more than welcome to stand in shorter lines with lot's of fire power... As I said.. give me unarmed LONG lines anyday... Don't have to worry about inadvertantly pissing anyone off....

Anyway... I always wonder about men needing to brandish about the biggest... longest... weapon they can find.. and what it is they are compensating for.. (?)


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

why do some folks make it a ****** thing when someone else doesn't agree with them?  I didn't ask you if your shoes were too tight.  At least I don't have to worry about some wacko running around cutting off heads.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 30, 2014)

Actually, QuickSiliver, I was replying to what rt3 said in his reply. As for me, I'll take an "unarmed" line anytime. 



QuickSilver said:


> HUN.... you are more than welcome to stand in shorter lines with lot's of fire power... As I said.. give me unarmed LONG lines anyday... Don't have to worry about inadvertantly pissing anyone off....
> 
> Anyway... I always wonder about men needing to brandish about the biggest... longest... weapon they can find.. and what it is they are compensating for.. (?)


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

besides, the guy with gun and I have something to talk about, instead of standing behind someone who gets pissed because of a T shirt.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 30, 2014)

Actually, there are stats that show that crime would be much less if people did "carry". Be less "court costs" as well. I learned how to shoot when in the Navy and have taught my wife how to "lock and load" and she is darn good at handling a handgun or rifle. Just saying.

Anyway, doubt if anyone would pull a gun and shoot, let alone tell a cop, "I shot him/her because they said something negative about my t-shirt." Just like Groucho Marx said, "that has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard".


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

that's my point its whats on the T shirt, people kill for less. (the lady probably doesn't even know who Grouch Marx is, even if she did she could respond that he was one of the most sexiest persons to live, invalidating any legitimate claim he might have). Also the lady doesn't have to say anything, but "it was self-defense". knowing what comes after shooting a weapon is probably more important than the act itself.  don't presuppose. 

lets see now
heres a guy what doesn't like a person expressing their 1St amend. rights
and  the same guy doesn't like a person expressing their 2nd amen. rights.

Now the guy standing next to you has a gun in plain sight, --- you know what he is going to do and saying, (bad guys don't tip their hands by wearing guns),
or a guy standing in line next to you complaining about  the wording on a T-Shirt, (both conative and denotative) who you don't have any idea what this guy is going to do.

Jury is out.


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## SeaBreeze (Sep 30, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Wife was looking at toothpaste and a black lady next to her was wearing a t-shirt that said "Justice For Jordan". I looked at her and said "not everyone is going to agree with your t-shirt". She didn't take it very well of what I said and told us, "I'm part of the family". I told her, "you just have to be ready if someone doesn't agree with you and the t-shirt." She didn't like me saying that either. I then told her, "sorry about how you feel about what I said, but with respect ma'am, you are the one wearing the t-shirt, not me." She looked like she was going to take our photo, so I grabbed my wife and we walked away.



There are many people these days who wear 'justice for' tee-shirts when someone in their family, or a friend, was senselessly killed, as in this case. It's worn especially if the murderer has not been found, or has not been justly convicted for the crime.

The lady clearly said that she was part of his family, although she really didn't need to explain anything.  She likely felt insulted that someone was warning her about how others may feel about her shirt, like she wouldn't have already known that on her own.  Also, she may have thought that the comment was the beginning of a confrontation by someone who didn't agree with her shirt.

I'm just trying to look at it from the eyes of that woman, from the information given here in this thread.  I think her reaction was very natural.


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## Davey Jones (Sep 30, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> This of course would be a whole 'nother debate thread... However, I will say this.. If I were in a store and some Yahoo was walking around slinging a loaded gun over his shoulder.. Open carry legal or not.. I would leave the store, but not before telling the manager WHY... and follow it up with a letter to the Corporate headquarters. But.. that's just me........ and a whole bunch of other sensible people. Businesses are allowed to ban guns.. and if enough customers walk out... they will.




HEY!!!!   I saw one of those guys at Walmart.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Actually, there are stats that show that crime would be much less if people did "carry". Be less "court costs" as well. I learned how to shoot when in the Navy and have taught my wife how to "lock and load" and she is darn good at handling a handgun or rifle. Just saying.
> 
> Anyway, doubt if anyone would pull a gun and shoot, let alone tell a cop, "I shot him/her because they said something negative about my t-shirt." Just like Groucho Marx said, "that has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard".



Why not? Wasn't Skittles and an Ice Tea enough to get someone killed?  AND for the murderer to walk?


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)




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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)




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## AprilT (Sep 30, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Actually, there are stats that show that crime would be much less if people did "carry". Be less "court costs" as well. I learned how to shoot when in the Navy and have taught my wife how to "lock and load" and she is darn good at handling a handgun or rifle. Just saying.
> 
> Anyway, doubt if anyone would pull a gun and shoot, let alone tell a cop, "I shot him/her because they said something negative about my t-shirt." Just like Groucho Marx said, "that has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard".



Could you point us to those stats, because you've gotta know living in our illustrious state, that just in the past year or two we've had a number of these irresponsible shooting cases including the one where you comment to the woman about her t-shirt

There's controversy as to whether to repel the the stand your ground laws here and around the country partly because of so many trigger happy gun carrying folks shooting people for all kinds of reasons such as not liking, someone's loud music, not liking someone texting/talking on a mobile phone, infidelity, minor arguments and the like.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/us/man-faces-second-trial-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html?_r=0

Let it be known, that Jordan Davis is dead, due to a gun shot from a gun Dunn aim at the car Davis was a passenger.  Davis  is why the woman was wearing the T-shirt and that though Dunn has received a conviction it is not for the death of Davis.  Why one would feel a need to say something to this women such as what you said, is baffling and IMO a bit insensitive while we're just stating opinions.  I'm sure her heart was heavy in the matter.  Living in FL I'm sure she is very aware of how many people think in such instances.  We've had more than enough such cases and people will always justify such actions depending upon their own personal feelings.


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## oakapple (Sep 30, 2014)

Hmmmn, tricky one this. I have not heard about this case [so thanks April for the info.] I would not have said anything at all to the woman. It's true that if you wear a T shirt with a statement on it, you may expect some comment, and perhaps she had some positive comments already but not a negative one. It's true you didn't say anything negative, but she took it that way.If somebody has died, it's wiser not to say anything to upset them further.I understand that you are a 'chatty fella' but sometimes even with good intentions we can get things wrong.


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## oakapple (Sep 30, 2014)

You are also a brave fella, as well as a chatty one, if everyone there is casual about gun carrying.


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

stats are easy, Dept of Justice, or FBI check them out. What is amazing to me is the illustrious cartoonist needs the NRA people to be fat and carrying a "WHOLE BUNCH OF GUNS" and and have a Freudian fixation, when it would suggest they lack the conjones themselves. And the wild west claims really crack me up. Per capita shootings in the wild west states are not even 1/10 of what they are in civilized states, New York, New Jersey, Florida, to say nothing about Illinois. Really good case of Cranialrectalmetamorphis.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

rt3 said:


> stats are easy, Dept of Justice, or FBI check them out. What is amazing to me is the illustrious cartoonist needs the NRA people to be fat and carrying a "WHOLE BUNCH OF GUNS" and and have a Freudian fixation, when it would suggest they lack the conjones themselves. And the wild west claims really crack me up. Per capita shootings in the wild west states are not even 1/10 of what they are in civilized states, New York, New Jersey, Florida, to say nothing about Illinois. Really good case of Cranialrectalmetamorphis.




Eh... most of the shooting are gang related... And innocent people get shot because gang members are such bad shots... So you think a bunch of Yahoos packing heat in Walmart won't shoot innocent people if they perceive there is a reason to fire all those guns?  That's just what is needed... a bunch of fools firing away and not knowing what the hell they are firing at.


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## AprilT (Sep 30, 2014)

rt3 said:


> stats are easy, Dept of Justice, or FBI check them out. What is amazing to me is the illustrious cartoonist needs the NRA people to be fat and carrying a "WHOLE BUNCH OF GUNS" and and have a Freudian fixation, when it would suggest they lack the conjones themselves. And the wild west claims really crack me up. Per capita shootings in the wild west states are not even 1/10 of what they are in civilized states, New York, New Jersey, Florida, to say nothing about Illinois. Really good case of Cranialrectalmetamorphis.



Nonsense and nonsensical foaming of the mouth doesn't make it true it just only shows that people are tying in good policing with the timing of gun laws in some areas.  I didn't make a claim, so I shouldn't have to search out these stats, they should have been offered.  Now if you want to see more stories about the law abiding citizens shooting up people at the drop of a hat with their licensed amo, I can provide several from the past few years for my state alone and if you are of the opinion that three such cases is just a drop in the bucket and doesn't matter, than I have no more words for the like of such people that are of such mindset.

BTW, my original post had nothing to do with being against open carry, I'm against how the stand your ground laws have been applied in some cases.  I do think more people should be tested for mental health, especially those that may plan to open carry, before being allowed to purchase such deadly weapons. I'm not against people having the right to bear arms.


Shootings have increased substantially since stand your ground law went into effect in Fl. 

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...ris-smith-claimed-deaths-due-self-defense-fl/

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...da-stand-your-ground-law-have-history/1241378

http://www.tampabay.com/news/state-will-use-newspapers-analysis-for-stand-your-ground-review/1233646

other cases in other areas

http://endstandyourground.wordpress...shocking-stand-your-ground-incidents-of-2013/

http://www.propublica.org/article/five-stand-your-ground-cases-you-should-know-about


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

The 2nd amendment calls for a WELL REGULATED militia..   SOOOOO..  until the Walmart vigilantes can prove they attend regular guard meetings and are enlisted in a Militia...


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

Your re-rendering of the 2nd is incorrect, I will not cite the supreme court decisions that support self defense or right to carry,  you need to "catch up".
\
Good luck defining mental health, it shows your ignorance on the subject. 

standing there shaking your finger and going "shame, shame on you don't mean squat"


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

not understanding why you think the gang yahoos would risk a shootout with the good guy cowboys anywhere let alone a Wal-mart. (could fortify the butcher shop, and eat between fire fights I suppose) at least until swat showed up.


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## Debby (Sep 30, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> do you REALLY believe the middle of a WalMart is the place for political debate? Particularly uninvited unwelcome political debate? Seriously.. there are other venues more suitable. And as for being confrontational or not... is coming up to someone and advising them that they BETTER be prepared to defend their view expressed on their shirt anything but confrontational? In my book it's confrontational.. or at the very minimum a challenge.. no matter how nicely it's said.




Yep, you're right, Walmart might not be the right place for a full on debate, but realistically speaking, Davey's words weren't such that he was inviting debate personally.  It was a comment to somebody as a result of a message that she wanted to throw out there for public consumption. Some seem to be assuming that he antagonized the woman when my impression was that he was just giving her a friendly heads-up that some folks might not agree with her opinion and she chose to read something into it that wasn't even there.  The way you made it sound in your comment above, it was like he challenged her when I don't think he did at all.  At least not as he wrote it in his initial question.  

Besides, if you don't want to get into a discussion with anybody, then keep your mouth shut.
Or in this case, if you don't want to get into a discussion, leave the T-shirt at home.


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## QuickSilver (Sep 30, 2014)

Nonsense..  Saying something to someone is a heck of a lot different than just wearing a T-shirt.   If I walk up to you and make a comment... a response is expected.. If I walk by you with a T-shirt with a message.. that is NOT inviting a comment, but going on about my business only to be accosted by you.   I am amazed you cannot see the difference.


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

it is the perception of the antagonism that is the point, not the intent of the people.  Perceptions vary from locale to locale, there is no right or wrong, only one's willingness to get bumped on the head.


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## Debby (Sep 30, 2014)

ClassicRockr said:


> Absolutely *NOTHING* was done like you wrote below! The lady was standing to my right/facing me, in the isle, and looking at her cell phone. My wife was standing to my left, looking at toothpaste on the shelf. I only made a comment about the "t"......nothing else! I did not "demand", as you call it, an answer or anything else from this lady!
> What I'd like to know is where in the heck you are coming up with this stuff that I didn't do????
> 
> As far as openly carrying a firearm here, have never seen it on anybody except law enforcement. Actually, I think it's illegal to do in Florida. Carrying a firearm, whether is "openly" or "concealed" is fine with me as long as the firearm is used for protection.........not b/c someone gets pissed off at someone else and decides to pull the firearm and shoot the person.




Sorry Classic.  For some silly reason I got it in my head that it was Davey who had the experience with the lady in the T-shirt, and used his name in my comments.  My apologies for making the mistake.  But I was also wondering where the idea of demands and rudeness, etc., came from.  Oh well, sometimes conversations take on a life of their own.  Keeps them interesting I guess.


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## rt3 (Sep 30, 2014)

I think the forum administrator is telling us all to "can't we all just get along"  ( wasn't that a line from the president in Mars Attacks just before the Martians killed him?)


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## Butterfly (Sep 30, 2014)

I still don't think it's the best idea to confront folks in Wal-Mart about what their T-shirts say.  What's the point of it?  I'm sure that lady knows not everybody agrees with her on the subject.  But if I went around taking on everyone whose T-shirt sayings I disagree with or disapprove of, I wouldn't get much else done.


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## MaggieJewel (Oct 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> do you REALLY believe the middle of a WalMart is the place for political debate? Particularly uninvited unwelcome political debate? Seriously.. there are other venues more suitable. And as for being confrontational or not... is coming up to someone and advising them that they BETTER be prepared to defend their view expressed on their shirt anything but confrontational? In my book it's confrontational.. or at the very minimum a challenge.. no matter how nicely it's said.



If a person wears a t-shirt in public, they are publicly stating an opinion.  If they didn't want comments they should wear it only at home or when they are around like minded people.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2014)

MaggieJewel said:


> If a person wears a t-shirt in public, they are publicly stating an opinion. If they didn't want comments they should wear it only at home or when they are around like minded people.



They are not verbally stating anything.. It's words on a shirt. It is not your business what they have on their shirt. If they came up to you and made a verbal statement THEN and only THEN would you be entitled to comment.. If someone came up to me uninvited and made a negative comment.. they would really really wish they had kept their mouth shut. Seriously. It would not bode well for them..

Now I am done with this thread.


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## Debby (Oct 1, 2014)

QuickSilver said:


> They are not verbally stating anything.. It's words on a shirt. It is not your business what they have on their shirt. If they came up to you and made a verbal statement THEN and only THEN would you be entitled to comment.. If someone came up to me uninvited and made a negative comment.. they would really really wish they had kept their mouth shut. Seriously. It would not bode well for them..
> 
> Now I am done with this thread.




Well I guess we have a difference of opinion folks.  Some think if you're putting your opinion out there, whether by mouth or a t-shirt, you're open for interaction.  Some don't.  Some would handle a comment graciously and some, well........  like ClassicRocker's experience you know.


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## oldman (Oct 1, 2014)

I flew down here to Texas yesterday to attend a friend's funeral today, so I haven't been keeping tabs on a lot of what's been going on here on the forum. I have, however, noticed that the T-shirt thread has generated a lot of comments and so I just looked at a few. Just to add my two-cents, I only comment on T-shirts that are from places that I have visited, whether it be a particular tourist location, bar, restaurant, well, you get the idea. Everything else, I let slide, unless there is some type of humor involved with it. like, "I'm With Stupid." 

I remember when 'back in the day' and I lived in Cleveland while going to college, I went to a Browns-Steelers game in Cleveland. Two guys that were seated several rows in front of us had on a Steelers T-shirt and the argument started as to why they were sitting in the Browns section. It only took a few minutes and then 3 or 4 guys were rolling in the aisle with the cops having to break it up. Of course, this was late in the game when they were mostly slosshed up pretty good. 

For you folks on the other side of the pond, this is in reference to a football game. The Pittsburgh Steelers and the Cleveland Browns.


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## ClassicRockr (Oct 1, 2014)

Well, from what I've read in this Thread of mine, I've decided to "watch what I say" and "mind my own business" (sometimes, anyway). Even though it was hard, sometimes *DARN HARD *for me to swallow what replies were given, I have to admit..........most of them were right and I have to say 
*THANK YOU *or opening my eyes wider and becoming a "wiser" old dude!


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 1, 2014)

Kudos ClassicRockr, hats off to ya', you're a good man!  :hatlaugh1: :clap:


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