# What our leaders are saying must be done about ISIS.....NOW!



## Elyzabeth (Aug 25, 2014)

"Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said ISIS posed an “immediate threat” to the West, in addition to Iraq, because thousands of Europeans and other foreigners who have joined the group and have the passports to travel freely could carry the fight back to their home countries — including the United States.

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was equally emphatic. ISIS, he warned, is “beyond anything that we’ve seen” because it is extremely well-financed and has demonstrated sophistication and tactical skill in its campaign to impose an Islamic caliphate by brute force. Other analysts have gone so far as to describe ISIS as one of the most successful extremist groups in history because of its ability to seize and hold large sections of two countries — Iraq and Syria — with what seems like blinding speed." NY Times

 Approximately 30 Young Muslims are said to be leaving the UK every month to go to fight with ISIS.
The beheadings  are helping ISIS in their recruiting...?

What kinds of twisted people are going there..?

 They will come back and turn the deadly skills they have learned on the UK. 


Why aren't other countries helping to defeat ISIS... who are every bit  as bad as the Natzi's?

Why aren't moderate Imams and Muslims coming forward 
to help to take energy away from these thugs who are going to behead innocent people...?


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## Davey Jones (Aug 25, 2014)

The problem with Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel  and Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is these type of guys seem to love war and will do their best to convince the Commander-In-Chief that putting U.S. troop on the ground is the best way to go.
Its been this way with all Past Presidents,hopefully Obama will stick to his word "no US ground troop".


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 26, 2014)

A head of steam is building to ready the public to support another war...


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 26, 2014)

I do not believe in war !
I opposed Vietnam I opposed going into Iraq...

This enemy ,however is different , in it's brutality and as a serious threat to world peace. 
They are brutal beyond compare and need to be stopped justifiably, just as the Nazi's HAD TO BE STOPPED...

Very different then other wars/ confrontations.

WW 2, was the only just war we have had  since the American Revolution..
but ISIS MUST be stopped

  Learn more about it, you will be appalled..
 and you will understand what I'm talking about !!!


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 26, 2014)

I agree with you about the concept of a just war with the exception of the American Revolution, which was an uncalled for rebellion against legitimate authority.  In fact, had we just become a Commonwealth nation, we wouldn't have had to lead all the wars up until the ones we find ourselves involved in today...


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 26, 2014)

Are you joking?

The American Revolution was absolutely a just war !

We were being taxed like crazy.. and we had absolutely no representation, or say in anything !


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## drifter (Aug 26, 2014)

Just or not, here we are, the war drums sounding against ISIS, the worst we've seen. I'm in favor of asking the French to send in the Foreign Legend to handle ISIS. We might get a Turk brigade to assist them, along with the kurds. Maybe the Australians can contribute a few men to make up a Regiment for this ISIS duty. Shouldn't take long to move them out of Iraq. Lindsey and McCain wouldn't be happy but they're never happy for long anyway. No sweat. Somebody call the President. The Brits think we're dragging our feet.


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## Warrigal (Aug 26, 2014)

Don't worry Drifter. Our PM is itching to send troops to engage ISIS but he has to wait for Obama to make the first move. As soon as he does our men and women will be committed. He can act alone on that. Doesn't even need the consent of Cabinet, let alone the Parliament.

By coincidence he is doing very badly in the polls and needs some headlines other than his government's ineptitude. You can count on the Aussies being there.


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## drifter (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm hoping the President stands his ground. Let's wait and see how bad this ISIS bunch is. I hope no bombs on Syria. We don't even know which bunch in Syria is the ISIS. Let's settle down and see what the Kruds can do, along with the balance of Iraqis who might want to save their country. They've got a new President now. Let's rest easy and keep our eye on the situation. The President can eat three squares a day, get in a few holes of golf now and then. Let's hang on to our hats and not get our blood pressure up. This is really old hat to us by now, surely.


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 27, 2014)

Wait  and see how bad this bunch is????

They are crucifying people

beheading people

burying women and children alive...

What is it exactly that you think we need to wait for???


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Perhaps an assurance that military intervention won't be counter productive ?
Before committing the military must know that they can actually defeat IS.
Asymmetrical warfare is very tricky.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Let's hope Oz and the rest of the Commonwealth nations aren't a bunch of sooks and step up...


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Let's hope Oz and the rest of the Commonwealth nations aren't a bunch of sooks and step up...



You haven't been paying attention


			
				Dame Warrigal said:
			
		

> Don't worry Drifter. Our PM is itching to send troops to engage ISIS but he has to wait for Obama to make the first move. As soon as he does our men and women will be committed. He can act alone on that. Doesn't even need the consent of Cabinet, let alone the Parliament.
> 
> By coincidence he is doing very badly in the polls and needs some headlines other than his government's ineptitude. You can count on the Aussies being there.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Do you believe everything that your PM tells you?  How naive...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

So you are off to bomb Libya and Syria as well now?
allegedly, the US was annoyed that Egypt and UAE bombed Lybia without telling US.
civilians don't appear to matter any more.....


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## Warrigal (Aug 27, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Do you believe everything that your PM tells you?  How naive...



Not at all. He is busy denying that he will send troops which is why I know that he will.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-27/forces-in-high-state-of-readiness-for-action/5700786


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Collateral damage is unfortunate, but the price some must pay for the freedom as we see it...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

It is called collateral damage, and it is an unfortunate consequence of bringing freedom American style to these people...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Some messages just need repeating...Loll!


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

It slightly worries me that your Chief-of-staff is considered a leader.
is he elected?
not very democratic....surely...


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Who's chief-of-staff?  Maybe you had better not have that drink...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Initial post of this thread; YOUR Joint Chief-of staff is saying bomb, shoot...whatever..


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 27, 2014)

Why is it that when you talk about taking an action, some people will  turn it into the very biggest thing that could possibly be done?

No, we are not going to go bombing countries, we are trying to contain a horror upon the face of mankind.


Needs to be done or they'll be "over here", in BOTH of my countries!


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Oh, that Chief, Obama probably doesn't listen to him. Do you remember the Cuban Missile crisis?  Kennedy didn't listen to his chief thank goodness.  And it seems that we finally are getting some Arab countries to help out, like in Libya...


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

I do remember Cuba .....I was very young!

I know....I really think that our interference tends to hinder; and we do change allegiances so fast...your enemy' enemy is now your friend and all that?...


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## drifter (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't think we have to worry about them coming over 'here', unless you're referring to 'them' that went over there and some one of them acting up when he returns home. That's what the domestic troops are for, you know, the police. The crowd over there will have to learn to police themselves. The Americans aren't the worlds police force. I really do keep remembering all those stories of the French Foreign Legend. This little war is perfect for them. What glory it would bring to France if ISIS were defeated under their commandership. The middle east countries need to learn how to police their own neighborhoods. The US doesn't need to step in everytime a rifle is fired. Do we?


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

With you all the way Drifter; and I include us in that too...


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 27, 2014)

Surely you are joking?

Libya is a total basket case, everyone has a gun no food no government 

they are going to help...

They are unable to even survive at his point, and they are going to help ???


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## Vivjen (Aug 27, 2014)

Egypt and UAE have been bombing Libya; which is what Drifter means.
US were annoyed because they weren't informed beforehand....


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## drifter (Aug 27, 2014)

I don't see how we can help Libya. We're broke. We need to pay down our war debts. We can no longer afford to be the word's broker or protector. The empire has out run it funds. The head of the joint chiefs is an important spokesperson, but he is on a political leash. He speaks at the pleasure of the President, part of a propaganda campaign to drum up support, for whatever the President decides to do, which at this time I hope is nothing. An I'm not kidding. Who's supporting who in the middle east. I don't like all this cloak and dagger stuff. And right now I can't help anyone. I've got to go clean up the kitchen.


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 27, 2014)

: )    



    So,   Drifter you put your kitchen before peace in the Middle East?????


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## drifter (Aug 27, 2014)

Today, yes, or peace on earth. Everything will be on hold till last night's mess is cleaned up. Too tired last night. So see how the world turns.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 27, 2014)

American jihadi/ISIS member killed.

http://nypost.com/2014/08/26/american-killed-fighting-for-isis-in-syria/

A few weeks ago it was an Australian with child chopping heads for ISIS now an American Hip Hopper. Do these people struggle that much for attention or purpose?

Buh Bye


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Don't worry Drifter. Our PM is itching to send troops to engage ISIS but he has to wait for Obama to make the first move. As soon as he does our men and women will be committed. He can act alone on that. Doesn't even need the consent of Cabinet, let alone the Parliament.
> 
> By coincidence he is doing very badly in the polls and needs some headlines other than his government's ineptitude. You can count on the Aussies being there.



The softening up continues. We are going to war as soon as we are invited



> [*Australia says it is willing to join US in air strikes on Iraq*
> 
> Defence minister says Australia’s Super Hornets are an ‘obvious first port of call’ as the US seeks international support for action
> 
> ...



Same message as Obama - no boots on the ground but we'll send the air force, or at least some of it. Watch this space.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

You have an Air Farce?


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Don't be snarky, Ralphy.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Me?  Snarky?  Never!  Just a misspelling...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

That's minus 1 for the American education system. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

No!  Just iPad mistake...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Pull the other one. 
It plays Waltzing Matilda

:rofl:


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Uncouth, very uncouth...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

:danger: Now you're casting aspersions on our National Song.
Shame, Ralphy, shame.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Is that the best you can do for a national song?  What a shame...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Can you think of a better tune to whistle?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Well, first we must consider whether you are truly a nation or not...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm just one woman. How many nations have a population of one?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Sigh...


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Well, when you make an sensible post, you'll get a sensible response. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Know your place!  Don't get uppity with your bettors!


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## Warrigal (Aug 28, 2014)

Now you are just being ridiculous


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Yep, true cat behavior...


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## Warrigal (Aug 29, 2014)

So, you're awake then.

Do you have anything to add to the original topic?


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 29, 2014)

I've forgotten what it was...


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## Warrigal (Aug 29, 2014)

:lofl: Me too.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Actually, there has been more concern here about Obama wearing a tan suit than anything else...


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## Vivjen (Aug 29, 2014)

I thought is was only women who were targeted for their clothes!


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## Debby (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm a little surprised that no one seems to be aware that the US has been training ISIS terrorists for the past couple years, that they didn't just appear out of nowhere.  Jordan has apparently been 'hosting' these training camps and John McCain has had photo ops there with some guy who is/was apparently on the US's Most Wanted List.  Any thoughts folks?

http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/isis-trained-by-us-government/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-29/time-ripe-false-flag-attack-american-soil

So much angst about the horrors of that group, so many calls for the Americans to save the day.......and no comment on the CIA training Syrian rebels who then went back to Iraq....to behead and bury alive whomever got in their way.

This link:  http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/06/americas-covert-re-invasion-of-iraq.html   discusses the 'bizarreness' factor in the CIA 'NOT knowing anything about ISIS until it magically appeared in Iraq' despite drones and intelligence throughout the region and goes on to suggest that maybe they should have just picked up a newspaper as a news agency in Lebanon had noted in March 2014 that the group was on the move out of Syria and heading into Iraq.

From the last link:  '.....Described extensively in the full New Eastern Outlook Journal (NEO) report, "NATO’s Terror Hordes in Iraq a Pretext for Syria Invasion[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]," the United States, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, have funded and armed terrorists operating in Syria for the past 3 years to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars - coincidentally the same amount that ISIS would require to gain primacy among militant groups fighting in Syria and to mobilize forces capable of crossing into Iraq and overwhelming Baghdad's national defences....'[/FONT]

It is also noteworthy that Israel (that most hated state in the Arab world!!!) is aiding Syrian(al Qaeda sympathizers?) rebels with medical care and has NOT been threatened by ISIS.  And no one is questioning that?


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 30, 2014)

It is also noteworthy that Israel (that most hated state in the Arab world!!!) is aiding Syrian(al Qaeda sympathizers?) rebels with medical care and has NOT been threatened by ISIS. And no one is questioning that?

"THE MOST HATED STATE IN THE ARAB WORLD?"
AND JUST WHAT WORLD WOULD THAT BE?

EVEN THE TERRIBELE AL QUEDA IS DISTANCING THEMSELVES FROM THESE EVIL BRUTES..

AND IN ALL OF THAT TURMOIL, WE HAVE ONE FRIEND, ONE DEMOCRACY  ...

AND THAT IS ISRAEL !!!

AND IT IS HATED???

DO SOME RESEARCH AND YOU WILL DISCOVER THAT HAMAS BOMBS ISRAEL FROM CIVILIAN POPULATIONS

.... WHICH  ISREAEL NOTIFIES BEFORE IT HAS TO BOMB THEM IN SELF DEFENSE...


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## Davey Jones (Aug 30, 2014)

Re:I'm a little surprised that no one seems to be aware that the US has been training ISIS terrorists for the past couple years, that they didn't just appear out of nowhere. Jordan has apparently been 'hosting' these training camps and John McCain has had photo ops there with some guy who is/was apparently on the US's Most Wanted List. Any thoughts folks?
The U.S. has been training the Iraq force since we first invaded that country in 2003 and they are (ahem) suppose to take care their own country defenses.
look what happened there.
re: US has been training ISIS terrorists for the past couple years.
My answer is* so what else is new.
*


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## Elyzabeth (Aug 30, 2014)

Don't believe it.. 

please explain...??

So, basically anything really really bad  that happens in the world 

...either the US did or the CIA did ????

Has a certain "popular appeal "


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## Vivjen (Aug 30, 2014)

US has had training officers in Iraq since before the official troops left.
they have extra special forces on the ground now....helping the kKurds, as Iraq has got out of control.

US has been using drones to bomb Yemen for a while now; as well as Pakistan.

As for Israel; remember members of the last governments were terrorists, until Israel was carved out of Palestinian land.

Is displacing 500,000 people really a proportional response to old rockets; who rarely hit their targets.
even US is pulling back from Israel; they need help from Iran..


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## Elyzabeth (Sep 1, 2014)

VIVJEN, WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE OF INFORMATION FOR ALL OF THESE ACUSATIONS?

"Belgian security services have estimated that the number of European jihadists in Syria may be over 4000.

European leaders have directed their nastiest comments against the Jewish state, none of them has asked why Palestinian organizations in Gaza put their stockpiles of weapons in hospitals, homes, schools and mosques, or their command and control centers at the bottom of large apartment buildings or underneath hospitals. None of them has even said that Hamas is a terrorist organization despite its genocidal charter."
source, Gatestone Institute


HAMAS MAKES BRILLANT USE OF IT'S PUBLIC RELATIONS; 

THEY SET THINGS UP, KNOWING WELL THAT THEIR OWN CIVILIVIANS WILL BE KILLED BY DOING SO, 

AND THEN THEY BLAME ISRAEL  !!!


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## Debby (Sep 1, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> It is also noteworthy that Israel (that most hated state in the Arab world!!!) is aiding Syrian(al Qaeda sympathizers?) rebels with medical care and has NOT been threatened by ISIS. And no one is questioning that?
> 
> "THE MOST HATED STATE IN THE ARAB WORLD?"
> AND JUST WHAT WORLD WOULD THAT BE?
> ...



Yes Elyzabeth I believe what I just said.  According to general news, all Arabs hate Israel. But apparently even those Arab ,  that supposedly hate Israel are willing to look the other way when it means that Israel will give them medical care.  Israel is no more a friend than anyone else is.  What has Israel ever done for Britain, America or Canada that makes them 'our greatest friend'?  And what has Israel done with the full support of Britain, the US and Canada?  Why they've brutalized a helpless population for 50 years.  Have you ever done any research on how Israel treats the Palestinian population?  The house demolitions, the children locked up even when they are under 12 years old (which by the way is against the Geneva Convention and which Israel signed at least twice), food deprivation, water deprivation, unchecked settler violence, land theft, civilians killed or beaten....the list is long.  

I have spent months looking at this issue and have made a point of avoiding any Palestinian sites as I didn't want undue bias tainting my research.  I've looked at history books of the region, Israeli newspapers, reports by human rights groups including the Red Cross and a couple of Jewish human rights organizations and the UN.  I could give you a hundred links right now this moment that point to the horrendous acts of Israel, most of which are never mentioned in mainstream news and those 'acts' are all documented.  And if you have any that refute those acts with documented evidence, I'll be happy to look at them.

As far as Hamas goes, you're right, bad actors.  BUT Israel is no better and in fact are worse because they commit their murders and atrocities with the full backing of 'bully countries' and donated weapon technologies, they wall in their victims so that they can shoot at will and then they pull the mewling victim card themselves as their justification.  The only reason that Hamas got elected in the first place was because the Palestinian people were helpless and hopeless at that moment in time thanks to Israel.  Israel/Zionism is a blight on the world and if you actually did some research you would be amazed at how closely their attitudes and philosophy mirror that of the Nazi regime that they fled from.  In fact, here is a link to a web site where the quotes of numerous Zionist leaders has been collected since Israel first set foot in the region in 1917.  http://www.thehypertexts.com/Zionist Quotes.htm  There is even one quote by one of the founding fathers of Zionism that indicates appreciation to the Nazi's for teaching the world about genocide and from that link,  ""Hitler—as odious as he is to us—has given this idea [ethnic cleansing] a good name in the world."—Jabotinsky"  

If you were being treated like those people, many of whom are just like you and only want to raise their kids in peace, you would be crying out to the world for help.  And when the world looked the other way because the oppressor made them feel continually guilty about an event in history, you'd begin to do whatever you could to try and help yourselves.  

And I want to go on record right here, that what I am against, is oppression and brutality against anyone.  If it was Israel who was being walled in and picked off in massive numbers, or starved into submission or whatever, I'd be speaking up for them.  No one should be treated as badly as the Israeli's treat the Palestinians.  But with the aid of our politicians and a 'managed' media, the Israeli control over everything that remotely mentions them has resulted in a populace who know only Israel's side of the story and it becomes convenient to ignore the thousands of innocent deaths that Israel has committed over the years.  Since 2000, Palestinians have caused approximately 1200 Israeli deaths.  And Israel has killed over 7000.  Who's the real victim here?


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## Vivjen (Sep 1, 2014)

So Israel has now taken more land from the west bank.
why? That is breaking international law and has already been condemned by US and UK.
Fact.
look up the history of previous Israeli Prime ministers, like Ben Gurion.


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## Debby (Sep 1, 2014)

Davey Jones said:


> Re:I'm a little surprised that no one seems to be aware that the US has been training ISIS terrorists for the past couple years, that they didn't just appear out of nowhere. Jordan has apparently been 'hosting' these training camps and John McCain has had photo ops there with some guy who is/was apparently on the US's Most Wanted List. Any thoughts folks?
> The U.S. has been training the Iraq force since we first invaded that country in 2003 and they are (ahem) suppose to take care their own country defenses.
> look what happened there.
> re: US has been training ISIS terrorists for the past couple years.
> ...




Well apparently many people don't seem to realize that ISIS members have actually received training from the US, and that ISIS is funded by the Saudi's and Quatar and Turkey (who is a member of NATO I believe?) all three of whom are friends of the Americans.  So why is America supporting the funding and training of this group?

http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/isis-trained-by-us-government/ 

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/rand-paul-us-arming-isis-in-syria/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q9PYy1NoA

The first link discusses how the US has been training a group of rebels (now known as ISIS) to overthrow the government of Syria.  The second video is Rand Paul discussing the US arming ISIS in Syria and the third link is General Wesley Clark talking about how the US intended back in 1999 to begin the march to overthrowing Syria (surprise surprise!), Iraq, Libya, Iran and Libya and Somalia and Sudan.  

You ask 'so what else is new'.  I ask, how many people are paying attention and seeing what their respective governments are doing to cause chaos around the world and how many of them even care?  It is easy to be complacent when those governments manage their manipulations so that those wars always happen 'over there'.  All kinds of support then as long as it's NIMBY.


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## Debby (Sep 1, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> Don't believe it..
> 
> please explain...??
> 
> ...



Don't believe what?  The documented evidence of American hegemony?  The documented evidence of Israeli humanitarian crimes?


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## Debby (Sep 1, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> VIVJEN, WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE OF INFORMATION FOR ALL OF THESE ACUSATIONS?
> 
> "Belgian security services have estimated that the number of European jihadists in Syria may be over 4000.
> 
> ...








Elysabeth no one is denying that Hamas have been bad people or that they've committed terrible acts against the folks they promised to help.  Some may suggest that they can understand why the Palestinian people elected them in the first place and why some Palestinians may still support them given the continuing abuse that they suffer at the hands of Zionists who have an agenda of forcing Palestinians out of the region.  But pointing at them continuously in no way explains or justifies the 50 years of Palestinian abuse by Israel.  Israel was abusing the Palestinians before Hamas arrived on the scene. 

Maybe if the world quit giving Israel a 'pass' on their human rights abuses, maybe Israel would have had to actually work out a peace deal with the indigenous people of the region.  On at least two separate occasions, Israel signed to an agreement that would have seen them withdrawing from the WB and Gaza but then they reneged on their agreement so that they could continue oppressing the Palestinian people.

It should also be noted, if the public is intent on portraying Hamas as the villain for using civilians as human shields, that Israel's own high court condemned and banned Israel's use of human shields (specifically Palestinian children) by the IDF as they went about their business of abusing the populace. 

http://www.btselem.org/human_shields  and also this link:  http://www.opednews.com/articles/Is...-Gaza_Israeli-Attacks-On-Gaza-140803-679.html


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## Elyzabeth (Sep 1, 2014)

There is either FREEDOM 


or No FREEDOM


Simple.


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## Debby (Sep 1, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> There is either FREEDOM
> 
> 
> or No FREEDOM
> ...





What is the point that you are trying to make?   Your statement could mean a lot of things.  Freedom to go to whichever school you want or go to movies safely.  Freedom to drive on the opposite side of the road from everyone else.  Freedom to abuse 'hostage' populations freely and without fear of repercussions.  Freedom to protect your life or freedom to fight for your freedom.......

We have seen the US use 'their' freedom to arm terrorists who go on to terrorize other countries.  We have seen Israel use their freedom to terrorize another group of people (outside of the sort of 'conflict' times that we got to watch recently).  We've watched a group of people have their freedom taken away from them entirely and suffer through 50 years of it and most of the world said nothing.  

Everyone likes to focus on Gaza and Hamas these days and they say 'there, the proof that Palestinians brought this on themselves'.  But there are other Palestinians.  E. Jerusalem, the West Bank....  During the times when things were say relatively 'peaceful', did Israel at any time, 'reward' those peaceful groups for their 'good behaviour'.  And I hesitate to use that kind of phraseology because it implies a certain correctness and justification for those processes.  But it sort of boils things down for easier understanding.  If Israel ever wanted peace, those would have been opportunities to coax and encouragement movement towards an acceptance of peace from the other side.  But they never did.  In fact even when they were involved in peace talks, the settlement building usually accelerates.

Did you know that once a week, in numerous small towns in Palestinian regions, peaceful marchers take their lives into their hands and walk for peace.  http://thetruthwins.com/archives/20-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true

How often does the media talk about those people?  Or do we only hear about the ones who will 'work' for a certain agenda?  Hamas, suicide bombers, terrorists?  Gatherings of more than ten are forbidden and yet these people in groups of a couple dozen to a couple of hundred, walk once a week to protest for peace.  And the IDF often uses lethal means to 'quell' them.  We don't hear about that either do we.  These marchers can be arrested or their children detained (indefinitely sometimes).

Israel doesn't have the freedom/right to treat people like that.  And I think the world is beginning to wake up to that fact.  We are tired of the endless killing and corruption and we're beginning to call out those who've used their freedom that way.  There should never be freedom to oppress.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Sep 1, 2014)

ISIS/ISIL is just another radical jihadist group of the Islamic faith... only more cruel and inhumane than others before them.  These jihadists are like cockroaches.  You can step on them and take out a large number.  The others simply scatter, reproduce, and grow more aggressive.  If you want to take them all out, you have to burn down the house.  And, that may be too high a price to pay.

Now, couple with that the significant divisive political culture here in the U.S.  Republicans want the U.S. to go to war.  Many of those calling for war, know we cannot stamp them out with ground forces but want something to blame on this POTUS.  I would not be the lease bit surprised to find that the Koch brothers are funding ISIS/ISIL, wanting a tragedy on our homeland that will swing the 2016 election their way.  General Dempsey and Secretary Hagel have to show they are ready for war.  To respond otherwise would show a weakness we cannot afford.  This is a no win situation.

Currently, the U.S. is using air strikes to slow down the ISIS/ISIL spread.  We assisted getting the Turks off the mountain.  We have assisted the Iraqis in retaking Mosul dam and, just in the past 48 hours, retaking a village and saving hundreds from certain beheading by ISIS/ISIL.  Our advisors on the ground are having a positive effect in Iraq as is our air support.

Syria is another issue in that the Assad government is almost as cruel and inhumane as is ISIS/ISIL.  There, I do believe the decision will be made to use air strikes to assist the Assad government in mitigating the threat, with some conditions.  Those discussions are ongoing right now, behind the scenes.  McCain, etc. don't want something positive to work out and have us not go to war.  There is entirely too much at stake, politically.  

There is a theat to the U.S. homeland from those who have accepted that the ISIS/ISIL cause is just.  Will we see some horrendous happenings here?  Probably.  Will it be as bad as the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.  No!!  Will we see some similar tragedies in Britian, Germany, France, etc.  I believe so.  And, while we are heavily concentrating on the ISIS/ISIL threat, Putin will use that advantage to take more of the countries back that made up the USSR.  

A WWIII will pretty well wipe out the human race.  I do believe the three world powers... U.S., Russia, and China are smart enough to refrain from all out war.  There will be posturing.  But, we need each other.  Without the U.S., China's economy tanks.  Without China, Russia and the U.S. economies tank.  There will be "war and rumors of war" from now until eternity.  I just don't believe we will see an all out war in the near term.  We'll continue surgical strikes and will play "Whack-a-mole" with the jihadists for the coming years.


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## Vivjen (Sep 1, 2014)

A little bleak, Gruny old' man, but, IMO, accurate.
i also believe that Iran is/will get involved; on the US side, and Yemen is already involved; on IS side...


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> ...........A WWIII will pretty well wipe out the human race.  I do believe the three world powers... U.S., Russia, and China are smart enough to refrain from all out war.  There will be posturing.  But, we need each other.  Without the U.S., China's economy tanks.  Without China, Russia and the U.S. economies tank.  There will be "war and rumors of war" from now until eternity.  I just don't believe we will see an all out war in the near term.  We'll continue surgical strikes and will play "Whack-a-mole" with the jihadists for the coming years.





There are many political watchers around the world who would disagree with you that the 'US is too smart to start WW3'.  

Like this ex-Director of the NSA who yesterday wrote an open letter to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, telling her not to believe the American hype about an invasion by Russia, that indeed there is NO intelligence that supports that claim.  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...s-write-open-letter-merkel-avoid-all-out-ukra

Then there's this article:  http://www.mintpressnews.com/will-ukraine-bid-join-nato-unleash-21st-century-cold-war/196082/

and one more for your viewing pleasure:  http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/08/interest-in-mh17-fades-as-sanctions-war.html#more


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 2, 2014)

Time to return to "Duck and Cover" drills perhaps?


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> ......
> Syria is another issue in that the Assad government is almost as cruel and inhumane as is ISIS/ISIL.........




http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/search/label/Syria

If Assad is so terrible, why did tens of thousands (including people who'd been forced to flee and were residing in other countries temporarily) line up to vote him back into office?  And the fact is that the OESC stated the following:  the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe's (OSCE) own report cited as proof that elections were "[FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]in line with international commitments and with a respect for fundamental freedoms," in remarks about the Syrian election.  In other words, no one was threatened or coerced and yet, tens of thousands lined up in the middle of fighting to vote for Assad.  

Could it be that the claims of Assad's brutality are planted by a government that had decided as far back as 1991 to 'take out Syria'?  This is a link where General Wesley Clark talks about the Pentagon decision back in 1991 to destabilize the Middle East.  Five or six countries were named, Syria and Iraq being two of them.   Their timeline was a little off, but they're still working hard at it.  [/FONT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q9PYy1NoA


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Ralphy1 said:


> Time to return to "Duck and Cover" drills perhaps?




You need to put a little 'silly-face icon' with that comment because we now know how effective that is don't we?  We've learned so much and yet apparently not enough.  Still the threat of war!


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## Vivjen (Sep 2, 2014)

Assad has been using chemical weopans again allegedly.... It is all such a mess..


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## Denise1952 (Sep 2, 2014)

Elyzabeth said:


> I do not believe in war !
> I opposed Vietnam I opposed going into Iraq...
> 
> This enemy ,however is different , in it's brutality and as a serious threat to world peace.
> ...



How do you define "brutal beyond compare"?  The Viet Cong (just for a little example) disemboweled children after they raped them.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 2, 2014)

New one on me, countries wait for an invitation to help, now there's a good excuse to sit on you thumbs.


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Assad has been using chemical weopans again allegedly.... It is all such a mess..




Hmmm, do you have a link to that?  Because according to the UN, the destruction of their chemical weapons was completed in June.  http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48103#.VAXlHktRrlI

And if that tidbit of information that you mentioned comes from the US, I'd be totally inclined to doubt it entirely.  (how's that for being committed to an idea?  'totally, entirely)


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## Vivjen (Sep 2, 2014)

Yes; his old chemical weapons....and not from the US either.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 2, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Yes; his old chemical weapons....and not from the US either.



I don't know about links to confirm, but common sense tells me anyone can get anything they want nowadays.  All you need is the right connections.


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## Vivjen (Sep 2, 2014)

OPCW reported in April that toxic chemicals were being used in a systematic manner in Syria; mainly chlorine gas

OPCW won 2013 Nobel Peace prize; but I suspect you won't believe them either.


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## Elyzabeth (Sep 2, 2014)

I don't know about anyone else, but I would never believe just one source, on anything !


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## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2014)

nwlady said:


> How do you define "brutal beyond compare"?  The Viet Cong (just for a little example) disemboweled children after they raped them.



Do you have an authoritative reference for that because it sounds like propaganda to me. I do remember hearing that they cut of the arms of children who had been vaccinated by American medical teams but I'm not even sure whether this is true either.

Bad things take place on both sides in any war.

Just found a link to a site that lists war crimes by country. There is a lot on Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:War_crimes_by_country


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## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2014)

I didn't say Wikipedia is authoritative but it is a jump off point for further looking.
What have you got? Happy to go from there.


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## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2014)

I've been digging around. No-one would suggest that the Viet Cong did not use terrorism on their own people.
This site is not particularly user friendly but it has some PDF documents on this subject.

http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/virtualarchive/items.php?item=2390710003



There are many gruesome stories around about the ruthless Viet Cong. I'd just like to concentrate on the real ones. Historical truth is important. Everything else is propaganda.


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## Ina (Sep 2, 2014)

Warri, I well remember a picture of a little Vietnamese nude girl running screaming down a road with burns all over her. That was a wake up call for me.


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## Warrigal (Sep 2, 2014)

It was not the Viet Cong that caused her condition.
She was collateral damage from dropped napalm.


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## Ina (Sep 2, 2014)

I don't remember the details, but that picture stays in my mind when I think of what's happening in today's world. I guess I just wasn't really aware of the rest of the world at that time. But that vision started the opening of my eyes.


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

nwlady said:


> I don't know about links to confirm, but common sense tells me anyone can get anything they want nowadays.  All you need is the right connections.




Does common sense also tell you to be suspicious of anything that comes out of the US government?  Like maybe if chemical weapons were used, it was by the terrorists that the Americans have been arming.  They have a vested interest in seeing that Assad looks bad don't they?  And maybe if enough people believe it, then America will feel like it has the publics approval to start bombing the crap out of the country.  Don't trust anybody when it comes to global affairs.


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> OPCW reported in April that toxic chemicals were being used in a systematic manner in Syria; mainly chlorine gas
> 
> OPCW won 2013 Nobel Peace prize; but I suspect you won't believe them either.




Would I believe the OPCW?  Yes I would accept their report but I would also want to know did they have proof it was Assad that used the chemicals or are they simply acknowledging that 'someone' used chlorine gas and did the news media write it up as though they had said it was Assad?  Big difference there.

The only reason I'm questioning it at all is because the American government has been in there working to support terrorists (including al Qaeda) and back in 1991, the Pentagon formulated a plan to destabilize the Middle East and Syria was one of five countries specifically named.  And considering the past lies of the American government (WMD in Iraq for example) I'd be suspicious of any news regarding Syria and especially if it was news that made Assad look like the bogey-man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5q9PYy1NoA  (General Wesley Clark talks about the destabilization of the ME)


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## Debby (Sep 2, 2014)

Janessa said:


> wikipedia??  That is a very unreliable source...they even tell you that!




But it can be a good place to start.  But like someone else here said, look for multiple sources for news and I would add to that, don't bother with the mainstream media because you'll mostly get 'the approved' news.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 3, 2014)

Debby said:


> Does common sense also tell you to be suspicious of anything that comes out of the US government?  Like maybe if chemical weapons were used, it was by the terrorists that the Americans have been arming.  They have a vested interest in seeing that Assad looks bad don't they?  And maybe if enough people believe it, then America will feel like it has the publics approval to start bombing the crap out of the country.  Don't trust anybody when it comes to global affairs.



Yes Debby,

common sense tells me the world is becoming more corrupt all the time, and also, that there are horrible, immoral people everywhere, and there are also good, moral people everywhere.  So the "news" is made up of all those people.  I have never been much on putting my trust or faith in people, and I've not been disappointed that way.  

What cracks me up the most about these "discussions" is how everyone knows so much.  Who needs tv, or any news broadcast, you guys put it all here for us dummies so we can learn.


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## Vivjen (Sep 3, 2014)

OPCW didn't accuse anybody; but it was used in a rebel-held town; they were trying to investigate.
that quote came directly from their website; believe what you will.

I know US has been helping the rebels for years; as I said before; your enemy's enemy is your friend.


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> OPCW didn't accuse anybody; but it was used in a rebel-held town; they were trying to investigate.
> that quote came directly from their website; believe what you will.
> 
> I know US has been helping the rebels for years; as I said before; your enemy's enemy is your friend.



Just one question, why are the terrorists in Syria being called 'rebels' but when they return to Iraq, they become 'terrorists' that are worse than al Qaeda?  Does their label depend on who puts weapons/cash in their hands?

As for the chemical weapons, I'm glad to hear that the OPCW isn't just making a blanket statement that Assad did it and particularly when they have no real proof.  I've seen enough instances where the US has levelled accusations like that, without the benefit of real proof and the world simply accepts it and chaos ensues.  If there is proof that Assad used chemical weapons, than fine, hold him responsible and do what's necessary to change that situation.  But we, and I include myself in this, need to always be careful which words we use or choose no to use.  It's so easy to skew truth just by picking the 'wrong' word or even leaving out a word.  

Then there's this.   In 1991, the US decided to destabilize the Middle East.  It's a known fact according to General Wesley Clark.  And everything we know about Assad comes from governments (who have their own agendas) and via mainstream media who are too often guilty of not providing accurate information in their pursuit of being invited on the government plane or getting a seat at another 'rubber chicken dinner'.  Considering that the turnout for the last Syrian election, even in the middle of war, was incredible and Assad was voted back in by a landslide (I think, correct me if I'm wrong on that), would it not be sensible for us all to ask, why the discrepancy between what we've been told about Assad and how that population feels about him?  Maybe, just maybe the 'horror stories' are actually marketing with a view to make it acceptable to blow the country up to drive him out and replace him with somebody that will be beholden to the US.

I'm sorry, I know there are lots of American people here and I apologize for any hurt feelings that my thoughts may cause, but seriously, over the past couple years of learning to look behind the simplistic reasons/solutions/excuses/stories that we hear on tv news, for the other side of the story, I've realized that healthy skepticism and suspicion is absolutely necessary if you're talking about governments or the economy.  Even my own government is guilty of the kind of subterfuge and corruption that I'm talking about and I don't trust them either.  

Governments in my opinion, pay lip service to their 'concern for the voters' but their real focus is personal aggrandizement, money, accolades and their families futures.  The rest of us better watch for scraps to fall off the table.


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> Yes Debby,
> 
> common sense tells me the world is becoming more corrupt all the time, and also, that there are horrible, immoral people everywhere, and there are also good, moral people everywhere.  So the "news" is made up of all those people.  I have never been much on putting my trust or faith in people, and I've not been disappointed that way.
> 
> What cracks me up the most about these "discussions" is how everyone knows so much.  Who needs tv, or any news broadcast, you guys put it all here for us dummies so we can learn.




I'm sorry if I've offended you by my question about using common sense when it comes government pronouncements.  Never meant to.  And I never called you a dummy either.  But I was under the impression that this was an ongoing discussion where each of us are allowed to share the information that we've all individually come across as we cruise the Internet. Am I wrong about that?


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## Vivjen (Sep 3, 2014)

The questions that arise over Assad's re-election was that a lot of the country couldn't vote; in rebel hands.
And I would question your assumption that rebels in Syria become terrorists in Iraq.
IMO, there are so many different groups in Syria, often separate from each other physically; whereas the group that has spilled out into Iraq appears to be one group, Isil; who do not control all of Syria by any means.

Places come in and out of the news don't they? Now the Golan Heights are being fought over by yet another 'rebel' group; Appello.....who knows; Damascus suburbs; who knows, and Iraq, again, a fluid situation in terms of territory, but, it appears, one group.

The Turks seem to vary too.....

Basically, one big big mess.


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## Denise1952 (Sep 3, 2014)

I replied to you on the common sense issue Debby, but my mind wanders off so the rest really not directed at you, it's for all of us, and I do include myself.  I think these discussions can be enlightening, for me anyway, since I don't watch news, and keep up on all things.  There's two things that will get me riled and one is someone from other than the US (non-citizen) putting my country down.  I am a citizen and I will bitch all I want, but don't be putting my country down until theirs is the perfect haven, with perfect people.  The other thing is when we get into "personal" attacks on each other, yuck.  I don't want to do that, and try not to. I am so not perfect.

I see the lack of unity being the world's, biggest problem.  As long as we all have egos, that won't change though, imo

And there is a 3rd thing as well, stereotyping like using a term like, all you Americans, or all you this or that.  I just need to chalk that up to bigotry, racism, and the biggy "ignorance".


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> Yes Debby,
> .........Who needs tv, or any news broadcast, you guys put it all here......



Last year I watched a documentary called "Big Boys Gone Bananas".  The director had previously made a documentary that simply showed how Dole Fruit company had been taken to court by it's field workers for spraying pesticides on them while they were working in the fields.  The employees won and Dole had to pay.

When the director was going to release his film at a festival, Dole found out about it and proceeded to impede his work from going to the public via the film festival and then hired a PR firm to wreck his reputation.  One of the things they did was send out a news release to news programs all across North America and they referred to 'the lies he told, his work of fiction, etc.  

In the BBGB documentary, there was a clip of the TV show, Canada AM, and the two hosts proceeded to laugh and giggle about this liar, film maker who thought he could slander the Dole Fruit Company.  In five minutes, they made him look like a total fool and scumbag.  Problem is they didn't mention that Dole had been found guilty of knowingly poisoning the field workers.  And when the film maker subsequently took Dole to court and sued them for libel, etc., they never mentioned at a later date, that the courts again found Dole guilty and made them pay the legal expenses and restitution for the film maker, nor have they ever apologized to the film maker for their snickering and support of the real bad guys.  They got a press release from a scummy corporations PR firm, helped them try to wreck an honest mans reputation and never bothered to do any research into the story at any point. 

From that point on, I began to have a different understanding of mainstream media and since then have seen more instances where we the public, would do well to exercise caution and suspicion when it comes to info that we're being fed.


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> The questions that arise over Assad's re-election was that a lot of the country couldn't vote; in rebel hands.
> And I would question your assumption that rebels in Syria become terrorists in Iraq.
> IMO, there are so many different groups in Syria, often separate from each other physically; whereas the group that has spilled out into Iraq appears to be one group, Isil; who do not control all of Syria by any means.
> 
> ...



*I'm not making 'assumptions' but am only relaying information that is readily available on the web.  Jordanian Intelligence, Reuters reports, Rand Paul, Global Research are a few of my sources. *

http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/rand-paul-us-arming-isis-in-syria/
Senator Rand Paul refers to the US 'arming rebels/ISIS in Syria.


http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/08/staged-provocations-ahead-possible-us.html
"...Syrian forces have continued making gains across the country, routing NATO-backed terrorist forces and restoring order in cities and towns that have been ravaged by war for years. ISIS strongholds in the eastern Syrian city of  Raqqa,..."

http://guardianlv.com/2014/06/isis-trained-by-us-government/
(According to Jordanian intelligence sources) Jordan has been an American training ground for Syrian terrorists and members of ISIS

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-is...ted-by-the-us-israel-and-saudi-arabia/5396171
This article makes reference to the Syrian terrorists being willing to give up claims to the Golan Heights (which Israel currently occupies!) in exchange for cash and military aid from Israel.

*As for the re-election of Assad, the vote happened wherever Syrian refugees were, not just in a small area that Assad had control of.  The interesting point to know too is that some European countries attempted to interfere with those refugees in their countries from registering their vote for the government of their choice.  I believe France was one that banned Syrians from casting a ballot.
*
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.ca/2014/05/ukraine-syria-elections-of-mass.html 
'It was impossible for the Western media to cover up tens of thousands of Syrians around the world queuing up in impressive numbers to cast their votes'


PS, I only bolded my words to make them easier to read amongst the links.


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## Vivjen (Sep 3, 2014)

That is what I mean.
still many different groups; each with their own agenda; some more vicious than others...I was in fact just saying that the terminology varies from day to day; but the rebels/terrorists want to get rid of Assad.
be careful what you wish for...

I wasn't particularly disagreeing.....


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

nwlady said:


> .......There's two things that will get me riled and one is someone from other than the US (non-citizen) putting my country down.  I am a citizen and I will bitch all I want, but don't be putting my country down until theirs is the perfect haven, with perfect people.  The other thing is when we get into "personal" attacks on each other, yuck.  I don't want to do that, and try not to. I am so not perfect.
> 
> I see the lack of unity being the world's, biggest problem.  As long as we all have egos, that won't change though, imo
> 
> And there is a 3rd thing as well, stereotyping like using a term like, all you Americans, or all you this or that.  I just need to chalk that up to bigotry, racism, and the biggy "ignorance".




The way I look at it, what happens or is decided in your country....affects me.  What happens in my country (think our dirty oil for example!!!) or what happens in France or Germany or Ukraine....will ultimately in some way...affect me and you.  We are residents of a global village.  And considering that I am no less hard on my own government, and considering the global ripple effect...I think everyone should critique/criticize governments worldwide.  And take note, my criticisms are always aimed at government and like you, I try very hard to retain my civility when I'm talking to the average citizen of any country.  Canada has it's share of uninformed or ignorant or down-right rotten folks as well as intelligent, kind, etc., just as the US has it's share of all of the above if you know what I mean.  Same goes for the UK, France, Syria, Palestine, Israel, etc.  But when the policies of the various governments cause negative results and blowback on the world in general and their own country or the 'target' country specifically, then every last one of us is obligated to speak up if we care about the world, our families, our families futures.

By limiting the ability of 'non-citizens' to criticize any governments actions, we reinforce the lack of unity that you suggest is the worlds biggest problem.  So if you want to offer up a rant about Stephen Harper getting rid of our climate scientists so that he can trash Canada's environment you'll have me providing a back up chorus.


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## Vivjen (Sep 3, 2014)

Or the Mayor of Toronto?!


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> That is what I mean.
> still many different groups; each with their own agenda; some more vicious than others...I was in fact just saying that the terminology varies from day to day; but the rebels/terrorists want to get rid of Assad.
> be careful what you wish for...
> 
> I wasn't particularly disagreeing.....




You're right, there are many different groups but we still need to be careful of what we accept as gospel and we must look behind the public facts in order to find out more and possibly the real truth.

You say the rebels/terrorists want to get rid of Assad.  Does that statement take into account the 1991 American decision to destabilize Syria?  And do we know why the terrorists claim they want to get rid of Assad?

I came across this post from a Marine who was stationed in Syria between 2004 and 2010 and the picture he paints is about a modern country and cities,  with people who were probably not much different than where you are and he closes the post with this line, "“We (the Syrian people) coexisted peacefully for centuries, and need neither brutal dictators nor western intervention.” 


"http://levantreport.com/2014/06/30/damascus-and-baghdad-a-marines-syrian-education/

By the way, it's an excellent post and for the sake of seeing another side of the story, it would be good if everyone read it.


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## Debby (Sep 3, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Or the Mayor of Toronto?!




You want to 'rant' about Rob Ford?  Go for it.  He has only himself to blame for his notoriety.  The only ones I feel sorry for in this sorry drama is his kids, because they had/have to go to school with every other kid hearing about their fathers ridiculous behaviour.  And we all know that kids can be so cruel.


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