# What can the world do to punish Russia?



## Bretrick (Feb 24, 2022)

Immediately imprison all the people involved in Russian Embassies around the world.
Confiscate all finances held by Russian elite around the world.
Stop the Russian Elite from disembarking from airplanes or if they travel, imprison them immediately, freezing all their assets.
There must be many other ways to hurt them.


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## Lewkat (Feb 24, 2022)

Block them from the world wide web and plan cyber attacks on their military.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> Immediately imprison all the people involved in Russian Embassies around the world.
> Confiscate all finances held by Russian elite around the world.
> Stop the Russian Elite from disembarking from airplanes or if they travel, imprison them immediately, freezing all their assets.
> There must be many other ways to hurt them.


It is not a good idea to imprison diplomats because it puts all diplomats at risk in the future.
Even expelling them can be counter productive because we may need our diplomats in war zones to help our own citizens.

The financial sanctions are much safer. Germany has taken action against the second gas pipeline from Russia which will hurt Russia but also Germany so that is a brave and noble act because it involves some sacrifice. Every effective action will have some blow back but we need to have strong resolve if we really want to be effective.

We can attack them in a cyber war but again, do we know what they will do to us in return? Are we prepared for cyber warfare? Security is important and that is why we cannot know how that will work, or if it will work.


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## AnnieA (Feb 24, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> Block them from the world wide web and plan cyber attacks on their military.



They already have malware in place to knock out our grid in a cyber attack. Doubt they'll hesitate to use it if we do.  Also, Putin is smart enough to know if he preemptively hits us, American leaders will back off.

https://www.wired.com/story/russia-gru-hackers-us-grid/

More recent article from Bloomberg but it's behind a pay wall.  If anyone has a subscription,  would love to see an excerpt.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ckers-cyberattack-the-u-s-electric-power-grid


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## Alligatorob (Feb 24, 2022)

I agree with @Warrigal what we can effectively do is limited.  The diplomat thing is real, we can't go after theirs if we want ours respected.  The rich Russians are another story, we can go after them, I just don't know how much effect that will have on Putin.


Warrigal said:


> The financial sanctions are much safer. Germany has taken action against the second gas pipeline from Russia which will hurt Russia but also Germany so that is a brave and noble act because it involves some sacrifice.


I agree, but this may hurt Germany more that Russia.  Russia has a larger and more friendly market for their gas in China.


Warrigal said:


> We can attack them in a cyber war but again, do we know what they will do to us in return? Are we prepared for cyber warfare? Security is important and that is why we cannot know how that will work, or if it will work.


This may be our most reasonable option, but as Warrigal points out we are not really quite sure what we'd be getting ourselves into.  I suspect we are more dependent on high tech than the Russians, we probably have more to lose.  Just not sure how well we can protect it.

I sure hope cooler heads will prevail, but am not sure that is realistic...


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 24, 2022)

I'm afraid that nothing we do will help the average Ukrainian.


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## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

With the huge amount of Russians who live in the U.S. and London, and other European countries I've always felt some of them are sleepers set up decades ago to be there when necessary influencing the societies they inhabit, especially legitimate emigres.


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## Della (Feb 24, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> They already have malware in place to knock out our grid in a cyber attack. Doubt they'll hesitate to use it if we do.  Also, Putin is smart enough to know if he preemptively hits us, American leaders will back off.
> 
> https://www.wired.com/story/russia-gru-hackers-us-grid/
> 
> ...


It tells about a government group called DARPA which does practice runs to see what would happen if hackers knocked out grids:


> The drills on Plum Island starkly illustrated the chaos hackers could unleash. Attackers hijacked critical safety equipment, shut down communications, and sent fake data to confuse operators making crucial decisions. Utilities that were once confident they could keep from being hacked are no longer so sure. “What we’ve seen as a country is the adversary is going to be successful,” says Walter Weiss, Radics’ program manager. “The issue then is, what do you do next?”



I don't have a subscription but I guess I still have a few freebies.






A view of Plum Island from the Cross Sound Ferry in Orient, N.Y.
Photographer: Bryan Anselm for Bloomberg Businessweek


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## Packerjohn (Feb 24, 2022)

Right or wrong but watching Vladimir Putin really reminds me of Adolf Hitler.  Hitler keep invading this country and that country until finally he invaded Poland on September 1, 1939 and then the world finally woke up.  Now, Putin may not want all of Europe but he sure would love to plant the Russian flag all over Ukraine.  The problem is how to stop a power hungry dictator in 2022?  The solution is not all that easy.  I know I don't have the answer.


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## 1955 (Feb 24, 2022)

I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.
This is a disaster, I had really thought the world evolved more than this.


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## AnnieA (Feb 24, 2022)

1955 said:


> This is a disaster, I had really thought the world evolved more than this.


Never will.  I've thought more than once during Covid debates that some would gleefully reinstitute public hangings.  Hasn't been too long in human history that they were social events.


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## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

There definitely has been human evolution regarding war & peace; however, not enough and not in the right places.  Peace is an ideal for millions more than ever in human history.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 24, 2022)

1955 said:


> I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.


It well might...  And we are in a weak position with respect to that.  We and very few other countries recognize Taiwan as an independent country...  

Makes official response hard.  It is different from Ukraine which is recognized as an independent country by most all the world.


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## Sunny (Feb 24, 2022)

I feel like we're right back in the time when Germany invaded Poland.  Hopefully, this won't lead to another world war.


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## Nathan (Feb 24, 2022)

1955 said:


> I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.


I expect this will be the next move, China is just as relentless as Russia is in their world domination quest.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Feb 24, 2022)

For centuries there have been violent conflicts in Europe. Religious wars, ethnic wars, revolutions, and world wars. I wonder if it stems from a desire to dominate?


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## todalake (Feb 24, 2022)

https://thefederalist.com/2021/11/0...chip-manufacturers-it-will-control-the-world/

Good read, why China wants Tiawan.


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## Lara (Feb 24, 2022)

What Can The World do to Punish Russia?

There is a bigger concern Putin has that overshadows any punishments from multiple countries via sanctions he has against him. Putin's invasion of Ukraine was driven by an obsession to restore Russia to national greatness by dragging everyone around Russia down.
His obsession goes back to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991which Putin saw as a disaster. And what Putin has been driven by since that time to restore.

You're seeing this sustained campaign against any of the former territories of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to restore Russian influence. And nothing is going to stop him now. Former negotiations kept him at bay but now he sees Europe and the US as weak for many reasons, which are political so I won't go into (hint: lack of leadership). That's why he's striking now...despite threats of sanctions from US and Europe.

Don't get me wrong. Sanctions will hurt Russia but Putin is keeping his eye on the prize. He's a sly fox to put it mildly.


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## SmoothSeas (Feb 24, 2022)

_you may say that I'm a dreamer..._

​__​


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## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

Speak softly and carry a big stick or act like a manical tough guy lunatic who attracts others of his ilk. (hint: Fans of January 6th).


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## hollydolly (Feb 24, 2022)

*The UK is to impose its “largest ever” set of economic sanctions on Russia, including pushing to end Russia’s use of the Swift international payment systems, freezing assets of all major Russian banks, limiting cash held by Russian nationals in UK banks and sanctioning more than 100 individuals and entities, our chief political correspondent, Jessica Elgot, reports.*


Boris Johnson has urged European leaders to agree that Russia’s use of the major payments system should be suspended, making the argument in a call with the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, and in a meeting of G7 leaders. The move is likely to be resisted by EU countries.


Announcing a package of sanctions that Johnson had promised would “hobble” Russia’s economy, the PM said legislation would be tabled on Tuesday to ban major Russian companies from raising finance on UK markets and to prevent Russia from raising sovereign debt on UK markets.
The sanctions include more key oligarchs who will have assets frozen, though sources said more names – including what they said would be more recognisable figures – would be released in the coming weeks.


The prime minister announced 10 measures the UK was taking immediately. The UK will freeze assets of all major Russian banks including VTB, the country’s second largest bank with assets totalling £154bn.


Individual sanctions will be imposed on more than 100 individuals, entities and subsidiaries, including Rostec, the country’s biggest defence company, which exports £10bn in arms a year, as well as four other defence companies.


Oligarchs who will be sanctioned include Putin’s former son-in-law Kirill Shamalov, Russia’s youngest billionaire; Denis Bortnikov, the chair of VTB Bank’s management board; and Yury Slyusar, the director of the United Aircraft Corporation. The Russian airline Aeroflot will be banned from landing in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...ladimir-putin-explosions-bombing-kyiv-kharkiv


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## Nathan (Feb 24, 2022)

> What can the world do to punish Russia?


We don't really want to punish the Russian people, that would backfire and cause them to rally behind Putin.    
Putin is a master 'chess player', his years in the KGB helped hone those skills.    It took years to hunt down and kill Bin Laden, who was just some scruffy dude hiding in 3rd world conditions.   Putin would be a much more difficult target.


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## hollydolly (Feb 24, 2022)

Nathan said:


> We don't really want to punish the Russian people, that would backfire and cause them to rally behind Putin.
> Putin is a master 'chess player', his years in the KGB helped hone those skills.    It took years to hunt down and kill Bin Laden, who was just some scruffy dude hiding in 3rd world conditions. *  Putin would be a much more difficult target.*


True..he doesn't even trust his own parliamentary politicians....   he has them sit at the very opposite of a long table while at a meeting with him...


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## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

Maybe he's germ phobic.


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## hollydolly (Feb 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Maybe he's germ phobic.


well he's not Germ _Warfare_ phobic, that's for sure....


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## Alligatorob (Feb 24, 2022)

It appears now is the time to act, if we ever plan to.

Russia invades Ukraine​https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-24-22-intl/index.html


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## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

This is a European problem for now and I think their ideas should be the ones which lead.


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## Jackie23 (Feb 24, 2022)

The people of Russia will be punished with these sanctions  and they will know the cause will be their so called leader...they will turn on him....count on it.  We'll see how tough the 'sly fox' is then.


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## Don M. (Feb 24, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> The people of Russia will be punished, and they will know the cause will be their so called leader...they will turn on him....count on it.  We'll see how tough the 'sly fox' is then.


It appears that there have already been some small "protests" in Russia....and they have been quickly halted.  If Anyone were to mount a serious protest against Putin, they would quickly "disappear".  Putin's "hero" is probably Adolf Hitler.


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## spectratg (Feb 24, 2022)

PRAY!!!


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## Tish (Feb 24, 2022)

Absolutely nothing!


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## Kika (Feb 24, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> They already have malware in place to knock out our grid in a cyber attack. Doubt they'll hesitate to use it if we do.  Also, Putin is smart enough to know if he preemptively hits us, American leaders will back off.
> 
> https://www.wired.com/story/russia-gru-hackers-us-grid/
> 
> ...


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## Kika (Feb 24, 2022)

Here is the Bloomberg article

Businessweek
Technology
What Happens When Russian Hackers Come for the Electrical Grid​Emergency training at a restricted facility off Long Island has aimed to minimize the potentially catastrophic effects of a cyberattack on U.S. power infrastructure.
By
Michael Riley
January 26, 2022, 4:00 AM EST





Photo illustration: Yoshi Sodeoka; Photos: Getty Images
Share this article​
Five times over three years, a desperate scenario has played out on Plum Island, an isolated spit of land just off the northeastern tip of New York’s Long Island. A large part of the power grid has gone down, leaving the population in the dark and critical facilities such as hospitals growing desperate. A team of utility operators and cybersecurity experts scrambles to get the grid back up, while hackers try to keep it down.

Each emergency was a drill held by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa), the Pentagon’s moonshot research arm. Its goal was to expose utilities accustomed to dealing with hurricanes, blizzards, and other challenges to the reality of a successful cyberattack on the U.S. electrical grid.
Concern about such an event has been mounting within the U.S. government for years. Darpa began laying the groundwork for its drills in mid-2015, part of a five-year, $118 million project called Rapid Attack Detection, Isolation and Characterization Systems—or Radics—after chilling congressional testimony the previous year from then-National Security Agency Director Mike Rogers. Rogers told lawmakers that hackers had been breaking into U.S. power utilities to probe for weaknesses and that Russia had been caught planting malware in the same kind of industrial computers used by power utilities. “All of that leads me to believe it is only a matter of when, not if, we are going to see something dramatic,” he said.
​

Illustrations: Chris Philpot

The problem has seemed especially urgent in recent months, following a series of ransomware attacks on U.S. facilities and rising tension with China and Russia. Russian troops are massed on the border of Ukraine, a country whose power grid has been hit twice by Russian cyberattacks. Last year the White House launched a 100‑day sprint to accelerate longer-term projects fortifying America’s power infrastructure against similar attacks.
In late December, U.S. officials privately warned utilities they could be targeted if relations with Russia deteriorate, telling them their security teams shouldn’t take the holidays off, according to two people familiar with the briefing. On Jan. 11, U.S. officials publicly called on utilities to comb their networks for signs of Russian intrusions. Secretary of the Army Christine Wormuth recently told reporters that the power grid would also be a target in a conflict with China over Taiwan.

The drills on Plum Island starkly illustrated the chaos hackers could unleash. Attackers hijacked critical safety equipment, shut down communications, and sent fake data to confuse operators making crucial decisions. Utilities that were once confident they could keep from being hacked are no longer so sure. “What we’ve seen as a country is the adversary is going to be successful,” says Walter Weiss, Radics’ program manager. “The issue then is, what do you do next?”




A view of Plum Island from the Cross Sound Ferry in Orient, N.Y.
Photographer: Bryan Anselm for Bloomberg Businessweek
While the government periodically practices such scenarios, utility operators rarely do. Until it ended in 2020, Radics offered the 15 utilities that participated near-real-world conditions to test new technologies, some of which they’ve since implemented. It also jolted them out of any complacency they may have had, says Brian Lynn, a lead trainer for PJM Interconnection LLC, the country’s largest grid operator, who advised Darpa throughout the program. “Anyone who was there really had their eyes opened up,” he says. “And they were able to go back as a firsthand witness to each of their companies and say, ‘Hey, this is a real thing.’ ”
Most histories of cyberattacks on physical infrastructure start with Stuxnet. The 2010 attack, believed to have been carried out by the U.S. and Israel, destroyed more than 1,000 Iranian nuclear centrifuges by manipulating the industrial computers that controlled them. Modern power grids are also heavily computerized, making them more resilient during storms and other weather-related disruptions but also opening new vulnerabilities for cyberattacks.

Russian hackers carried out the first major cyberattack on a nation’s electricity grid in late 2015, taking down part of the Ukrainian national grid for six hours. The following year they staged another attack on Ukraine, infiltrating a transmission substation north of Kyiv and tripping every circuit breaker, briefly severing the flow of power to a section of the city. The hack was meant not only to punish Ukrainians but also to show what Russia could do to other adversaries, according to Andy Bochman, senior grid strategist at the Idaho National Laboratory and one of the top U.S. experts on cyberthreats to the grid. “Both attacks in Ukraine were demonstrations,” he says. “And the whole world was watching.”
Shortly afterward, Russian malware was discovered inside as many as 10 U.S. utilities, including the operator of a nuclear plant in Kansas. Government officials hastily convened a series of secret briefings with utility executives, prompting the power companies to spend months scrubbing their systems, according to three people familiar with the incident. The U.S. Department of Energy continued briefing power company executives, warning that, among other things, potential adversaries had been caught manipulating grid components during manufacture, according to two people familiar with the briefings’ contents.




Cui
Photographer: Bryan Anselm for Bloomberg Businessweek
Although the most sophisticated attacks are likely to come from nation-states, the spate of ransomware attacks over the past year shows how widely the ability to paralyze physical infrastructure through cyberattacks has spread, says Ang Cui, founder of Red Balloon Security and a participant in the Plum Island exercises. “What an attacker can do to these embedded devices today makes Stuxnet look like caveman technology,” Cui says.
Hackers who want to bring down a grid would likely manipulate the computers that keep it in balance. Operating a modern grid requires constant realignment to make sure the amount of power sent into the system is equal to the power that households, businesses, and other customers pull from it. Eric Hittinger, an expert in energy policy who’s an associate professor at Rochester Institute of Technology, likens this process to a bicycle rider constantly shifting her weight to stay upright. If that balance is disrupted badly enough, he says, “everything starts to fall apart. Different parts of the system will start to turn off in unpredictable ways. You end up with cascading failures. You fall off the bike.”
This can happen because of natural events, such as the winter storms in Texas last year, when electricity heading into the grid fell after the weather took power stations offline. The Electric Reliability Council of Texas, the organization that operates the grid, responded by shutting off power in major population centers, averting a cascading collapse by just minutes, according to three people who reviewed data from the incident.
​

Illustrations: Chris Philpot

One of the hardest parts of a grid failure is repowering it following a collapse, and the biggest outages could require a tricky maneuver known as a black start, which involves restarting the grid without power from outside the blackout zone. A particularly nightmarish scenario—and the one that Darpa simulated in its drills—would be a cyberattack where hackers stay in the system and repeatedly disrupt the restart process. In this situation, a blackout that would’ve lasted hours could extend to weeks. “When it comes to cyber, it’s like you’re repairing the damage from the hurricane while it’s still on top of you,” says PJM’s Lynn. “And I just can’t fix it and know it’s going to hold. I’ve got to keep asking, ‘Did I miss something? Is something still infected?’ ”

“You have to get your systems operations guys, who don’t speak cyber, to talk to your cyber guys, who don’t speak systems operations”
The first drill on Plum Island took place in 2018, with subsequent exercises occurring until October 2020. The action centered on Fort Terry, a now-abandoned part of New York City’s coastal defenses. The remote island, which is also home to a high-security lab used to study contagious animal diseases, is accessible only by a ferry behind a guard post; the 100 or so participants in each drill spent a week to 10 days there, returning each evening to hotels on Long Island. Employees from utilities and people from National Guard units role-played at their day jobs, while Darpa brought in cyberwarfare experts to act as the hackers.
Participants are loath to reveal many details for fear of giving attackers useful information, but among the biggest challenges was a culture clash between seasoned utility operators and experts in cybersecurity. “You have to get your systems operations guys, who don’t speak cyber, to talk to your cyber guys, who don’t speak systems operations. And that’s just very challenging,” says Donnie Bielak, a colleague of Lynn’s at PJM who also consulted on the exercises. He remembers the initial attitude of a shift operator from New York as typical: “Basically, he arrived saying, ‘All right, all you cyber nerds, hands off, I got this.’ ”




Bielak
Photographer: Photographer: Bryan Anselm for Bloomberg Businessweek
Once the exercise started and the power went off, though, the inadequacy of the typical recovery techniques became clear. The attackers manipulated data coming from sensors—showing a circuit breaker as open when it was closed, for example. Even unsophisticated-seeming tricks were disruptive. In one case, attackers dimmed the brightness on a device’s screen, leading recovery crews to waste time misdiagnosing what seemed like dead equipment. In another, operators accustomed to checking the status of components with an online app were flummoxed when the hackers disabled the portal so they couldn’t log in.

At the beginning of one exercise, Weiss reminded a group of cybersecurity experts of their own lack of preparedness by simply flipping the circuit breaker to the conference room where they were gathered. Anyone who hadn’t brought extra laptop batteries or had forgotten a headlamp was basically out of commission.
The exercises generally started with failure, followed by slow progress as the defenders learned to work with experimental technology developed for Radics—and how to operate in their new, contested environment. Eventually, Bielak says, the utility workers who initially brushed off the cybersecurity experts began to work closely with them. Defenders had to come up with procedures to clean each substation of malware, for instance, before connecting it to the larger grid. If they missed anything, the hackers might flip a breaker at the wrong moment or send manipulated data that could confound the recovery effort.
Even seeming victories were fleeting. During one exercise, defenders managed to restore the grid and reestablish the operations of the model utilities. Power began flowing again to key sites across the island, Weiss recalls, and everyone involved erupted in cheers. A few moments later the grid came crashing down again.

“The collateral damage can sometimes be far different than what the intent was”
Radics, like many Darpa programs, had a limited run, and the exercises ended when the program did. Some of the test equipment remains, and the Energy Department continues to test cybersecurity technologies on the island. But most of the utility workers are no longer involved, a situation that Lynn worries will result in participants letting their newfound skills go stale. “You want that muscle memory,” he says.
Even if they were to continue, the Plum Island exercises involved a small number of utilities, and experts are concerned that the country remains unprepared for a dangerous and unpredictable threat. The situation on the Ukrainian border highlights how foreign conflict raises the likelihood of an attack. Even an attempt to apply political pressure by conducting a limited cyber operation could set off failures beyond the attackers’ control, according to Tim Roxey, former security chief for North American Electric Reliability Corp., the grid regulator. “The collateral damage,” he says, “can sometimes be far different than what the intent was.”




A scale model of Manhattan used by Cui’s team in a cyberattack simulation.
Photographer: Bryan Anselm for Bloomberg Businessweek
Plum Island has had some lasting tangible effects. The National Rural Electric Cooperative Association, whose members are mostly small, not-for-profit operators, recently began using a new security tool that it first tested on Plum Island, according to NRECA Chief Scientist Emma Stewart. Once fully deployed, the tool, called Essence, will help the co-op members, which have comparatively small security budgets, detect cyberattacks on some of their most sensitive equipment.
Cui, whose company makes some of the tools that were tested on Plum Island, says the U.S. has a long way to go in preparing for cyberattacks and in training the utility workers who will be on the front lines. His team recently examined several common industrial computers used to control the grid and uncovered serious design flaws that could be leveraged by hackers. To prove his point, his team remotely hijacked one of the devices and shut off power to a scale model he built of Manhattan.
“How at risk is this country? Maybe a better question is: How much have we done to prevent something like those scenarios at Radics from happening?” Cui says. “I think it’s pretty clear that we haven’t done nearly enough.” _—With Jordan Robertson and William Turton_


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 24, 2022)

Jackie23 said:


> The people of Russia will be punished with these sanctions  and they will know the cause will be their so called leader...they will turn on him....count on it.  We'll see how tough the 'sly fox' is then.


The thing is these protests of the people need to be more than just small. Once it gets bad enough and the country becomes unrest and it is just more than just small pockets of people than things might start taking effect. I do feel a large part of the Russian people don't want this and once they start feeling the harsh effects of the sanctions they will have no choice but to voice that.


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## Jackie23 (Feb 24, 2022)

Don M. said:


> It appears that there have already been some small "protests" in Russia....and they have been quickly halted.  If Anyone were to mount a serious protest against Putin, they would quickly "disappear".  Putin's "hero" is probably Adolf Hitler.


.....check back in a month or so...lol, no I don't know anymore than anyone else what's going to happen but I feel that the Russian people are very used to their smart phones/tvs and shinny new cars and that the oligarchs are going to be very pi**ed when all their assets are gone and they can not longer use a credit card.....I guess we will all see just how much damage sanctions can do.


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## mrstime (Feb 24, 2022)

The West  might find a way to financially hurt Putin and the Oligarchs!


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## Alligatorob (Feb 24, 2022)

Tish said:


> Absolutely nothing!


Unless you count lots of bluster in press conferences I am afraid you are likely right...


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## Jackie23 (Feb 24, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> The thing is these protests of the people need to be more than just small. Once it gets bad enough and the country becomes unrest and it is just more than just small pockets of people than things might start taking effect. I do feel a large part of the Russian people don't want this and once they start feeling the harsh effects of the sanctions they will have no choice but to voice that.


Yes, I agree, I read that there was protest in St Petersburg with approximately 4000 people and the sanctions have not even set in yet.


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## Jules (Feb 24, 2022)

Listening to a CBC radio interview today with a former citizen of Ukraine, he explained that his very well-educated Russian cousins have been told that they’re saving the Ukrainians, because that’s what they want and they believe it.


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## hollydolly (Feb 24, 2022)

_Britain may not yet be at war with Russia - but the invasion of Ukraine could see the Kremlin try to knock out UK TV, broadband and phone networks as well as online banking and NHS systems in an all-out cyber-conflict with the West at the dawn of a new Cold War, experts told MailOnline today.

Vladimir Putin could also try to force internet giants such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and WhatsApp offline - although US sources have said that any major Russian global cyber attack could trigger NATO Article 5 and spark World War Three. 

Ed Arnold, Research Fellow in European Security at RUSI, the UK's leading defence and security think tank, told MailOnline: 'If cyber activities escalate, businesses and people in the UK can expect disruption of websites, communication platforms, networks and in extremis, UK critical national infrastructure'.  

Russia's 'dictator' President is not expected to launch a military attack on the UK or its Nato allies unless they set foot on Ukrainian soil and engage with his armed forces.

But his first strike on Britain will already have happened, using his GRU spies in the UK and US to steal intelligence about what the West's response to today's invasion will be. 

Boris Johnson has promised a 'massive' package of economic measures in tandem with the US and European Union, due to be announced at 5pm. And Putin is expected to hit back immediately._


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## hollydolly (Feb 24, 2022)

Boris Johnson today unveiled 'unprecedented' sanctions against Russian banks, firms and oligarchs as he vowed to cripple 'bloodstained aggressor' Vladimir Putin after the Ukraine invasion.

The PM announced 10 separate strands of measures to inflict 'significant' impact on Moscow's economy - with officials saying they should knock several percentage points off its GDP.

Mr Johnson told MPs Mr Putin was flouting 'every principle of civilised behaviour' and will 'never be able to cleanse the blood of Ukraine from his hands' - even though Ukrainians are 'offering a fierce defence'. He insisted the world now saw the Russian president for what he is: 'A bloodstained aggressor who believes in imperial conquest.'  

The assets of all major Russian banks - including VTB - will be frozen, while new legislation will block the state and all the country's major firms from being able to raise money on London markets.

Mr Johnson pointed out that half Russia's trade is currently in dollars and sterling. 

The government says over 100 people, entities and subsidiaries will be subject to sanctions, including defence giant Rostec. There will be travel bans and asset restrictions on five more named individuals - including Kirill Shamalov, Russia's youngest billionaire and previously married to Putin's daughter.
Ministers intend to put a fixed limit on how much Russian nationals can have in accounts in the UK. Aeroflot planes will be immediately prevented from landing anywhere in Britain, while crucial defence exports of semi-conductors and aircraft spare parts will end.

The PM is also committing to shut Russia out of the SWIFT international financial messaging system, although that still has to be thrashed out with other Western powers. And the government is aiming to extend all the measures to Belarus, which has joined Russia in the invasion.

Mr Johnson said it was 'the largest and most severe package of economic sanctions that Russia has ever seen'. Officials said the UK was taking a 'maximalist' approach to sanctions and would look to go further where possible. Some of the measures come in immediately, but others could take weeks and will need legislation.

A UK diplomatic source said in relation to the five oligarchs sanctioned: 'These are people who have international lifestyles.

'They come to Harrods to shop, they stay in our best hotels when they like, they send their children to our best public schools, and that is what's being stopped.

'So that these people are essentially persona non grata in every major Western European capital in the world. That really bites.'

The sanctions package was generally welcomed by Keir Starmer, while Theresa May said Russia needs to feel the 'cold wind of isolation'. 

However, Russia has already shrugged off the action - with one Moscow ambassador swiping previously that Mr Putin could not 'give a 'sh**' about the punishments.

More here... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...anctions-against-Russia-Ukraine-invasion.html


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## jujube (Feb 24, 2022)

1955 said:


> I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.
> This is a disaster, I had really thought the world evolved more than this.


From your mouth to God's ear, 1955.  My nephew teaches in a high school in Taiwan and I worry about that all the time.  He used to teach in China but was expelled from that country when some official got mad at the school and kicked all it's American teachers out.


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## Nathan (Feb 24, 2022)

Did someone say "sanctions"?   I expect that the sanctions are going to hurt the Western nation's consumers alot more than they will hurt Putin.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (Feb 24, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Did someone say "sanctions"?   I expect that the sanctions are going to hurt the Western nation's consumers alot more than they will hurt Putin.


Aren't we all supposed to share in the pain?


----------



## Irwin (Feb 24, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Did someone say "sanctions"?   I expect that the sanctions are going to hurt the Western nation's consumers alot more than they will hurt Putin.


They'll hurt the people of Russia more than they'll hurt Putin, but maybe that will be the impetus for a massive uprising and the overthrow of his dictatorship.


----------



## Nosy Bee-54 (Feb 24, 2022)

"UEFA will take the 2022 Champions League final away from St Petersburg following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The decision will be made at Friday's emergency meeting of European football's governing body."

Russia and Ukraine are both scheduled to play World Cup play-off matches in March, and Fifa said it would monitor the situation.

Fifa president Gianni Infantino says football's world governing body has "a duty to look into the footballing consequences of what is happening".

"Fifa condemns the use of force by Russia in Ukraine and any type of violence to resolve conflicts. Violence is never a solution and Fifa calls on all parties to restore peace through constructive dialogue," Infantino said.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/60504979

Most people in the US may not agree with this because at least for the past 5 years all the talk was about: "keep politics out of sports."


----------



## jerry old (Feb 24, 2022)

While were discussing how to punish, we also need to discuss how Russia can punish us and our allies


----------



## jerry old (Feb 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> This is a European problem for now and I think their ideas should be the ones which lead.


as we said in 1939?


We are not the world's policemen, we assumed that role after WW II, not to successfully-review our history from 1950-2019: lot of dead
soldiers- for what gain?


----------



## Nathan (Feb 24, 2022)

Irwin said:


> They'll hurt the people of Russia more than they'll hurt Putin, but *maybe that will be the impetus for a massive uprising and the overthrow of his dictatorship*.


That would certainly be a welcome scenario, but one that I fear would instead yield a lot of dead Russian citizens.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

jerry old said:


> as we said in 1939?


Actually, I was thinking that myself.  I just want to see the extent of Europe's outrage.  It is their turf and it is not the same Europe as in the 1930's.


----------



## Irwin (Feb 24, 2022)

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon said on Thursday that it was sending an additional 7,000 troops to Europe, after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine launched the biggest land war in Europe since World War II.

Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III ordered the deployment of an armored brigade combat team to Germany to reassure NATO allies, the Pentagon said in a statement. In particular, American military officials want to send another message: while the United States is staying out of Ukraine, it will not hesitate to act if President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia turns his eye toward a member of the Atlantic alliance.

The deployment will bring to 14,000 the number of American troops that President Biden has ordered to Europe since the Ukraine crisis began. Their arrival will bring to nearly 100,000 the number of American troops in Europe.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/us/politics/us-troops-russia-ukraine-military.html

Putin has more sense than to go after any member of the Atlantic alliance (NATO).


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## john19485 (Feb 24, 2022)

should have sent troops there long ago , along with our allies , the US gave its word to the people of Ukraine
The Massandra Accords set the stage for the ultimately successful trilateral talks. As the United States mediated between Russia and Ukraine, the three countries signed the Trilateral Statement on January 14, 1994. Ukraine committed to full disarmament, including strategic weapons, in exchange for economic support and security assurances from the United States and Russia. Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted U.S. assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine’s warheads would be dismantled in Russia, and Ukraine would receive compensation for the commercial value of the highly enriched uranium. Ukraine ratified START on February 3, 1994, repealing its earlier preconditions, but it would not accede to the NPT without further security assurances.


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## Irwin (Feb 24, 2022)

It looks like this crisis is bringing our leaders together.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) called for swift action against Russia on Thursday in response to its invasion of Ukraine, warning that "time is not on our side." 

"When it comes to sanctions against Putin – If we are NOT doing everything possible, we are NOT doing enough. Time is NOT on our side," Graham, a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee wrote on Twitter.

He warned that how the U.S. handles Russian President Vladimir Putin would affect what happens in regions like Asia and the Middle East. 

The South Carolinian said he looked forward to working with "Republicans and Democrats to pass an emergency supplemental to help Ukraine." 

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) similarly voiced his support for heightened sanctions on Thursday, saying Biden should increase them "all the way up." 

"Ratchet the sanctions all the way up. Don't hold any back," said McConnell. "Every single available tough sanction should be employed and should be employed now.  

President Biden earlier Thursday afternoon announced a new wave of sanctions against Russia and Belarus. The sanctions will target Russian bank holdings worth about $1 trillion in assets. 

Apart from financial institutions, the U.S. is also issuing export controls that will effect Russia's ability to access U.S. technology like semiconductors, lasers and sensors. 
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...ctions-against-russia-time-is-not-on-our-side


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## Lewkat (Feb 24, 2022)

All the sanctions against the oligarchs will not deter Putin.  But if Biden and all the other allied leaders sanction Putin from the banking community, that will halt him right quick.


----------



## Nathan (Feb 24, 2022)

Irwin said:


> Putin has more sense than to go after any member of the Atlantic alliance (NATO).


Well, I guess we shall see...


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 24, 2022)

So tragic, the people of Ukraine don't deserve this, they deserve a break.


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## Shero (Feb 24, 2022)

The World can do very little to "punish" Russia, except to impose sanctions.
The rest of the World has to tread very carefully.
A world war is very easy to start and Russia and China are itching to show themselves as the superpowers.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 24, 2022)

john19485 said:


> Its over now execpt for the mop up, Russia controls it now, nothing the US does or anyone else is going to make a difference, our world standing is down to O now, thanks to that person in the White House, the one that can't seem to keep his mouth shut.


It's not fair for you to be a provocateur.  We're not supposed to discuss politics, yet you deliberately write a baiting sentence, begging for someone to agree or disagree with you.  So, before I tell you why you're wrong, instead I will ask you, in future, not to make such comments and take your own advice and shut up instead.  Thank you.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 24, 2022)

It's sad, to me, that the sanctions against Russia don't seem to include a ban on oil and natural gas exports.

That suggests, to me, that the sanctions are more political bluster and posturing than serious punitive measures designed to cripple the Russian economy.

I've been reading that since the Russian invasion of Crimea Putin has been stockpiling currency, gold, etc... in an effort to prevent sanctions from creating a liquidity crisis or currency squeeze.  Some estimates place Russia's currency reserve at $631 billion, enough to offset the loss of revenue from exports for up to 17 months.


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## Alligatorob (Feb 24, 2022)

Aunt Bea said:


> It's sad, to me, that the sanctions against Russia don't seem to include a ban on oil and natural gas exports.
> 
> That suggests, to me, that the sanctions are more political bluster and posturing than serious punitive measures designed to cripple the Russian economy.


Problem is Europe needs these more than Russia needs to sell to them.  China already buys more than anyone else and they are not likely to be a part of any sanctions.  In fact they may be happy to take up whatever exports Russia loses.

With China as such an important trading partner our sanctions of Russia can't be real effective.  And China is not likely to be sympathetic to our side.

Putin hails China oil and gas deals amid tensions with Europe​https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2...ost-energy-alliance-with-30-year-gas-contract


Aunt Bea said:


> Some estimates place Russia's currency reserve at $631 billion, enough to offset the loss of revenue from exports for up to 17 months.


Which should give them plenty of time to find other markets for those goods.


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## mrstime (Feb 24, 2022)

Irwin said:


> They'll hurt the people of Russia more than they'll hurt Putin, but maybe that will be the impetus for a massive uprising and the overthrow of his dictatorship.


What I just heard on the news is that the Russian equivalent of the stock market is tanking.........that will hurt Putin and the oligarchs!


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## Jackie23 (Feb 24, 2022)

Tanker Owners Are Turning Their Backs On Russian Oil​Owners of tankers have become reluctant to offer their vessels to load crude from Russia for fear that their future cargo could be breaching potential sanctions if the West decides to deploy the harshest sanctions against Russia after it invaded Ukraine early on Thursday.

Several shipbrokers and tanker owners told Bloomberg on Thursday that they avoid offering their vessels to load Russian crude.

Two-thirds of Russia's crude oil exports are seaborne, from ports in the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea.

After Russia invaded Ukraine on Thursday, the United States, the European Union, and the UK vowed to impose another round of sanctions against Moscow.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tanker-owners-turning-backs-russian-213000425.html


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## oldiebutgoody (Feb 24, 2022)

Bretrick said:


> Immediately imprison all the people involved in Russian Embassies around the world.
> Confiscate all finances held by Russian elite around the world.
> Stop the Russian Elite from disembarking from airplanes or if they travel, imprison them immediately, freezing all their assets.
> There must be many other ways to hurt them.





Why wait for now to do all this?  Had it been done to Bush and his fellow warmongering capitalists, Putin would not have been emboldened to do any of this crap.


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## Bretrick (Feb 24, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Why wait for now to do all this?  Had it been done to Bush and his fellow warmongering capitalists, Putin would not have been emboldened to do any of this crap.


We all know world leaders are piss weak.
I have heard for years, "We must never allow this to happen again" (invasion of other Countries)
Though it still happens and no country is proactive. They all let it happen then offer - "We condemn these actions...."
Remove these tyrannical leaders.


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## john19485 (Feb 24, 2022)

Pepper said:


> It's not fair for you to be a provocateur.  We're not supposed to discuss politics, yet you deliberately write a baiting sentence, begging for someone to agree or disagree with you.  So, before I tell you why you're wrong, instead I will ask you, in future, not to make such comments and take your own advice and shut up instead.  Thank you.


I've been in the same situation these people are in, having the President say that America will be there for you , then backing out of that.


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## Lavinia (Feb 24, 2022)

Many in the Russian government disapprove of Putin's actions. After all, the Ukrainians are their own people. If they feel strongly enough, they may unite against him and put a stop to it.


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## Warrigal (Feb 24, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> We appeased Bush and must apply the same principle to Putin.


What kind of logic is this? Are you suggesting appeasement of Putin?
That's not logic; it is madness.


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## ElCastor (Feb 24, 2022)

What can we do to punish Russia. Hmmm. At one time we were oil independent and a net oil exporter. Now it seems we import 595,000 barrels of oil a day from Russia -- more than we get from Saudi Arabia. With prices rising I guess that comes to $60 million a day or around $22 billion a year. $22 billion buys a lot of tanks and missiles. Hmmm.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapie...or-supplier-of-oil-to-the-us/?sh=3ac31f4418c3


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## Ruthanne (Feb 25, 2022)

How about ignoring them??  Just kidding at this awkward time.


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## Autumn72 (Feb 25, 2022)

1955 said:


> I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.
> This is a disaster, I had really thought the world evolved more than this.


My take is China is in bed with Russia
One side takes Ukraine and the ot h er side takes Taiwan and then as Hilter takes over the world.
Hitler is back yet how did England get other countries ?


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## Autumn72 (Feb 25, 2022)

1955 said:


> I'm hoping that it doesn't embolden China to take over Taiwan.
> This is a disaster, I had really thought the world evolved more than this.


Not when there are poorer countries to takeover. Russia wants Warner countries it just too damn cold up there.


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## Autumn72 (Feb 25, 2022)

Autumn72 said:


> Not when there are poorer countries to takeover. Russia wants Warner countries it just too damn cold up there.


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## Autumn72 (Feb 25, 2022)

Pepper said:


> This is a European problem for now and I think their ideas should be the ones which lead.


So as in world war2 we waited and it became bigger that we lost more than any other country because they was allowed to regroup as was mentioned above just like Hitler...to be concerned of China North Korea and Russia closing in on us this time 3 countries not just Germany.
As we allow the Amish Germany run by men only to run a ok Corral for their male population they can't tell you anything of America's History no school after 8th grade. To keep them without a means to join the world as they say is English
I can not understand how a German based religious culture is allowed to be above the law when we are not. I believe they should go back to Germany without the women if they rather stay. Yet they have the upper hand by ripping families apart in allowing rapes of children is closing their eyes to all this Daisy issue going on and the law enforcement will never be fired think there needs to be a war too.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

In what way did US lose more than any other country during WW II?

For starters, the war began in 1939 but it wasn't until after Pearl Harbour that US entered the war.
Meanwhile Europe had been under the heel of the German forces and Britain was copping a hiding from the air.

The moment Hitler invaded Poland Churchill declared war on Germany and Australia together with other Commonwealth countries immediately rushed to oppose the Germans and their allies the Italians.

I think you should check your historical facts more carefully. Alternately, try to explain what you mean because I haven't the faintest idea what most of the above is all about.


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## Packerjohn (Feb 25, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> In what way did US lose more than any other country during WW II?
> 
> For starters, the war began in 1939 but it wasn't until after Pearl Harbour that US entered the war.
> Meanwhile Europe had been under the heel of the German forces and Britain was copping a hiding from the air.
> ...


Thank you Warrigal for that correction.  Anyone who thinks the US lost more than anyone else in WWII is completely wrong and just doesn't know their history.  Pearl Harbour was attacked on December 7, 1941 so the war was already going on for 27 months or over 2 years plus before the US entered the war.  The USSR lost 26.6 million people, Poland lost about 5.6 million and the USA 420,000.  So, saying that the USA lost more people in WWII is pure fiction.  You do get that from watching John Wayne war movies which always ignores the fact that Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, British, French, etc.  were in the war too.  Nope, only John Wayne and all his happy soldiers.  Pure fairy tale!


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## HarryHawk (Feb 25, 2022)

Russia took over Crimea in 2014 with no negative consequences.  Why would they not come in for another bite of Ukraine?


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## hollydolly (Feb 25, 2022)

In 1939 little peace loving Finland took on the mighty Russia.. when Russia attempted to take some of Finlands' land for their own purposes... .The fins despite being totally outnumbered by the Russian army.. put up the fight of their lives, and Russia altho technically won, and gained 11 percent of Finlands' land, ... came away with a Bloody Nose.. and knew they'd been in a fight..
Finland retained the rest of their country as a free land after signing the treaty of Moscow ..but they weren't about to forget Russia's unwarranted attack on them, so the following year  in 1941, unable to get help from Britain or France, Finland Joined with Germany against the Russians....

My point being that Ukraine is just as determined as Finland was back in the day  , and I believe Russia will know they've been in a fight with Ukraine ....


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## hollydolly (Feb 25, 2022)

​

_Fury was mounting today over the EU's weak and divided attempts to sanction Russia over the invasion of Ukraine, as it was revealed the Italian PM demanded and got an exemption for his country's luxury goods industry . 

Mario Draghi was accused of prioritising  posh shoes over punishing Putin as EU nations 'disgraced themselves' with a failure to take a hardline approach to sanctions against Russia.

They were accused of frustrating British and American efforts to kick Russia out of the world's biggest financial payments system. 

In a call with G7 leaders yesterday, Boris Johnson pressed the case for suspending Russia from Swift, which is used to conduct about half of its international trade.

But the move was kicked into the long grass because of opposition from a number of EU countries, US president Joe Biden suggested.

Sources told the Telegraph today that Draghi won the exemption for Italian luxury goods like shoes and designer clothes, saying: 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin.'

Polish politician Donald Tusk, who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, lashed out at Germany, Hungary and Italy for blocking Brussels from taking a hardline approach to Putin.  

Additionally, French finance minister Bruno Le Maire said today that the option of cutting off Russia from Swift remained open, but that he viewed this only as a last resort. 

Ukraine yesterday urged the West to trigger the move, with foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba warning that those who refused would have 'blood on their hands'.

Today President Volodymyr Zelenskyy demanded greater 'pressure' be placed on Russia as the capital Kyiv came under attack. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-Moscow-Swift-global-bank-payment-system.html_


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 25, 2022)

One thing the Russians probably didn't think of is the Ukrainians hitting back inside Russia.  That seems to be happening.  

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-military-base-blown-ukraine-fights-back-1682558


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## oldiebutgoody (Feb 25, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> One thing the Russians probably didn't think of is the Ukrainians hitting back inside Russia.  That seems to be happening.
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/russian-military-base-blown-ukraine-fights-back-1682558




Interesting if true because the railroad stations are filled with people leaving Kyiv and other cities.  If Ukrainians won't fight for their own country then what's the use of Americans fighting for them as so many are suggesting today?  South Vietnamese, Iraqis, and Afghans who were loyal to the puppet governments imposed by the US fled rather than fight.  As a result the US lost all three wars.  That's what would happen today if the USA intervened.  

Stay out of the war and fix the problems we have here.


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## Tish (Feb 25, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> All the sanctions against the oligarchs will not deter Putin.  But if Biden and all the other allied leaders sanction Putin from the banking community, that will halt him right quick.


I agree!


----------



## JB in SC (Feb 25, 2022)

The only way to stop Putin is to cut his cash flow from energy by dropping the price of oil back to $30 a barrel. Could be done with the stroke of a pen. Europe cut it’s own throat with their energy dealings, and will not do anything.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

JimBob1952 said:


> One thing the Russians probably didn't think of is the Ukrainians hitting back inside Russia.  That seems to be happening.
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/russian-military-base-blown-ukraine-fights-back-1682558


The Ukrainians are certainly very gutsy people in the face of great danger. 
I am so wanting them to withstand the onslaught until the rest of Europe does something effective to help them.


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## bingo (Feb 25, 2022)

since his airstrikes have been targeting  US bio weapons  labs...
maybe not punish


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

bingo said:


> since his airstrikes have been targeting  US bio weapons  labs...
> maybe not punish


More info, please.


----------



## Nathan (Feb 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> My point being that Ukraine is just as determined as Finland was back in the day  , and I believe Russia will know they've been in a fight with Ukraine ....


I hope you're right, I think that soldiers defending their homeland fight harder, look at:
Afghanistan vs the U.S.
Afghanistan vs the Soviets
Vietnam vs the U.S.
Edit:  I can tell you this- I may be an old man but if enemy invaders show up outside, they'll be _leaving_ in body bags.


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## hollydolly (Feb 25, 2022)

Nathan said:


> I hope you're right, I think that soldiers defending their homeland fight harder, look at:
> Afghanistan vs the U.S.
> Afghanistan vs the Soviets
> Vietnam vs the U.S.


I sincerely hope I'm right too tbh... but I think if it was just sheer bravery that won a battle , Ukraine would win hands down.. unfrotunately it's not, and they're so outnumbered, and neither do they have the technical advances that Russia has at their disposal  but I'm still praying for a miracle for them...


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## bingo (Feb 25, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> More info, please


I saw it on Twitter


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

bingo said:


> I saw it on Twitter


Thanks, but I always take Twitter with a dollop of salt until I can find confirmation.


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## bingo (Feb 25, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks, but I always take Twitter with a dollop of salt until I can find confirmation.


oh....i went further...i never take second hand info...you can research  yourself...then conclude..
good day


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

bingo said:


> oh....i went further...i never take second hand info...you can research  yourself...then conclude..
> good day


I don't have enough to start researching. I need something to begin with like  a location.
Biolab is too vague. Help please.

Edit - OK I did take the only clue given in post #86 - US bio weapons labs - and I found something but I doubt it's truthfulness because of the way it depicts the Ukrainians surrendering to the Russians without offering any resistance, Truth is usually the first casualty of war and we are wise to be sceptical. 

It would appear that the Twitter post has been removed.

The full article can be read here, but it sounds like Russian propaganda to me.
US bioweapons labs in Ukraine: What will Russia find in the labs? (nutritruth.org)



> Reports from the first day of the Russian military operation in Ukraine show that the Ukrainian army does not have much to counter the Russian forces. The Ukrainian army was heavily armed by NATO, but since most Ukrainian soldiers were conscripted to serve against their will, their fighting spirit seems to be decidedly low. In many places it is reported that the Russian army met no resistance at the border and was literally waved through by the Ukrainian forces.​
> Where fighting has occurred, Ukrainian soldiers have waved white flags. This is not true everywhere, but it seems to have happened very frequently. However, the so-called volunteer battalions in particular, composed of volunteer Ukrainian nationalists, are probably resisting fiercely.​
> Russia reports that there is no longer a functioning military airport in Ukraine and that a great deal of weaponry, especially anti-aircraft and artillery, was destroyed in the first few hours. The shooting down of several Turkish-made Bayraktar drones was also reported. CNN filmed Russian soldiers allegedly occupying Kiev airport.​
> This would make sense, as Russia has announced that one of the goals of the military operation is to denazify Ukraine. Apparently, the occupation of civilian airports is intended to limit the ability of those responsible in Ukraine to escape.​U.S. bioweapons labs in Ukraine.​I have often reported that the U.S., more specifically the Pentagon, operates several bioweapons labs in Ukraine. The last time I reported on this was on January 27. The U.S. has always refused international inspections of its labs, so no one knows what they are researching in these labs. But we can assume that Russian special forces will take a closer look at these labs in the coming days.​
> ...



​


​


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## mellowyellow (Feb 25, 2022)

Are US-run biological labs in Ukraine one of the reasons behind Russia invasion? Read how Russian govt had raised ‘bioweapons’ alarm

https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/rus...apons-labs-patrushev-putin-wuhan-coronavirus/


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## oldiebutgoody (Feb 25, 2022)

Last year  the people in Catalonia Spain with President Puigdemont declared independence from Madrid.  The entire world looked the other way as fascist police attacked peaceful protesters. When Mr Puigdmeont fled the rest of Europe helped Madrid hunt him down and arrest him. 

Where the hell was the USA and the UN?

Why didn't any country invade Spain, bomb Madrid, arrest the falangist government, throw the king into prison, and give the Catalonians the freedom they wanted?  

*Why the double standards???*


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## Shero (Feb 25, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Where the hell was the USA and the UN?
> 
> Why didn't any country invade Spain, bomb Madrid, arrest the falangist government, throw the king into prison, and give the Catalonians the freedom they wanted?
> 
> *Why the double standards???*



Because, Putin has let the world know in no uncertain terms that Russia has enough nuclear power to finish anything off. Any country acting foolishly can encourage this unhinged man to push the button.


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## Shero (Feb 25, 2022)

A Ukrainian presidential adviser said Ukraine had lost control of the Chernobyl nuclear site in the north, where fighting raged after Russian troops crossed the border from Belarus. The adviser said authorities did not know the current condition of the facilities at the site of the world’s worst nuclear disaster.

Ukraine’s interior ministry warned that if artillery fire was to hit waste stored after the 1986 disaster, it could lead to “radioactive nuclear dust” being spread “over the territory of Ukraine, Belarus and the countries of the EU”

Below a video from France24

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFtS3NjWsdc*


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

Shero said:


> A Ukrainian presidential adviser said Ukraine had lost control of the Chernobyl nuclear site in the north, where fighting raged after Russian troops crossed the border from Belarus. The adviser said authorities did not know the current condition of the facilities at the site of the world’s worst nuclear disaster.
> 
> Ukraine’s interior ministry warned that if artillery fire was to hit waste stored after the 1986 disaster, it could lead to “radioactive nuclear dust” being spread “over the territory of Ukraine, Belarus and the countries of the EU”


That does not sound good


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 25, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Last year  the people in Catalonia Spain with President Puigdemont declared independence from Madrid.  The entire world looked the other way as fascist police attacked peaceful protesters. When Mr Puigdmeont fled the rest of Europe helped Madrid hunt him down and arrest him.
> 
> Where the hell was the USA and the UN?
> 
> ...


..but Catalonia is IN Spain. Would you like Indiana..or Texas to declare Independence and then demand why the UN don't order the bombing of Washington and the arrest of the President  when the Independence is denied ?


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

Exactly, HollyDolly


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## Shero (Feb 25, 2022)

*Fact check: False claim of US biolabs in Ukraine tied to Russian disinformation campaign*

The posts on Facebook *misrepresent* a treaty between the U.S. and Ukraine aimed at preventing biological threats. The labs in question are owned and funded by the Ukrainian government, according to the Security Service of Ukraine, the country's main security agency.
.


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## oldiebutgoody (Feb 25, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> ..but Catalonia is IN Spain. Would you like Indiana..or Texas to declare Independence and then demand why the UN don't order the bombing of Washington and the arrest of the President  when the Independence is denied ?




Catalonia existed for hundreds of years before it was conquered by Madrid. If they had no right to secede from Spain then Ukraine has no right to secede from Russia. Same with Taiwan seceding from Beijing.


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## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

Shero said:


> *Fact check: False claim of US biolabs in Ukraine tied to Russian disinformation campaign*
> 
> The posts on Facebook *misrepresent* a treaty between the U.S. and Ukraine aimed at preventing biological threats. The labs in question are owned and funded by the Ukrainian government, according to the Security Service of Ukraine, the country's main security agency.
> .


Full fact check here

Fact check: False claim of US biolabs in Ukraine tied to Russian disinformation campaign (msn.com)

Russia is using "useful idiots" to spread their disinformation and propaganda. We should not let ourselves be taken in.

While it is true that all governments can be rather careful about full disclosure in the name of national security I know that I would believe a democratic government every time over an autocratic one. Putin cannot be trusted and, with his past behaviour in mind, I am rather surprised that anyone would listen to his propaganda.


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## oldiebutgoody (Feb 25, 2022)

For those of you who want to punish Russia, what are you going to do to the USA for starting two needless wars, killing one million people, and destroying the infrastructure of two innocent nations?


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## kburra (Feb 25, 2022)

Assassinate the evil piece of S... Putin!!


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## Nathan (Feb 25, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> For those of you who want to punish Russia, what are you going to do to the USA for starting two needless wars, killing one million people, and destroying the infrastructure of two innocent nations?


Well, apparently there's no plans to punish the U.S. for the needless wars, and yes, I do get it...something *should* have been done. Talk had been of charging former president Geroge W. Bush and former PM Tony Blair for war crimes, but it was just so much wasted warm air.
Are you suggesting that Russia *should* be excused for the invasion of Ukraine?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 25, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> For those of you who want to punish Russia, what are you going to do to the USA for starting two needless wars, killing one million people, and destroying the infrastructure of two innocent nations?


Bit late now to punish America for past wars but not too late to save Ukraine from annexation into the new Russian Empire against their will.

If we in Australia decided to annex New Zealand I would hope we would be stopped with as little bloodshed as possible.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 25, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Bit late now to punish America for past wars but not too late to save Ukraine from annexation into the new Russian Empire against their will.
> 
> If we in Australia decided to annex New Zealand I would hope we would be stopped with as little bloodshed as possible.




The USA decided not to recognize any secession claims made by the Confederate States.  Madrid made the same decision about Catalonia.  And now Russia made the same decision about Ukraine.  What's the difference?


----------



## dseag2 (Feb 25, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Should Bush be excused for his imperialism?   Over a twenty year period the USA attacked two innocent nations, killed a million people, and destroyed their infrastructures.  Millions of people are still hospitalized because of bombings, bullets, attacks, etc. Nobody has sent Bush a bill for his terrorism or even had the guts to petition the UN or world courts for redress of grievances.
> 
> Putin engages in these actions and suddenly everyone is enraged and decides that counter actions must be undertaken.
> 
> ...


Amen.  None of these mattered because they didn't impact our cost of living.  Now all of a sudden it matters.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The USA decided not to recognize any secession claims made by the Confederate States.  Madrid made the same decision about Catalonia.  And now Russia made the same decision about Ukraine.  What's the difference?


The difference is Ukraine was a done deal of independence until Putin decided to change it.  Maybe it never should have been done in the first place?  It was done.


----------



## Bretrick (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> For those of you who want to punish Russia, what are you going to do to the USA for starting two needless wars, killing one million people, and destroying the infrastructure of two innocent nations?


Those situations have  now passed.
Is that a good enough reason to let another country be taken over by a mongrel dog?
This is a current situation that the world has a chance to stop.
No doubt, once again, the world will sit by and watch a democratic country be bombed back to the dark ages.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 26, 2022)

Putin is not likely to stop at Ukraine. He has more grandiose plans.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Feb 26, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Putin is not likely to stop at Ukraine. He has more grandiose plans.


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 26, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Putin is not likely to stop at Ukraine. He has more grandiose plans.


He's already threatened Sweden and Finland today


----------



## Shero (Feb 26, 2022)

Yes Putin has great plans, he always had great plans. That of reforming the USSR. He wants to get his hands on : Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan. The Republics of the USSR


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> The difference is Ukraine was a done deal of independence until Putin decided to change it.  Maybe it never should have been done in the first place?  It was done.




The Donbas region of Ukraine declared its independence.  Putin recognizes it.  If Ukraine has the right to break away, then Donbas has the same right - and if they wish to become a part of Russia, so be it.  That would readily end the conflict we see today. Contrary to all the myth making we see today, neither Putin nor any other person or group in Russia has indicated it plans to march into the rest of the world.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 26, 2022)

Shero said:


> Yes Putin has great plans, he always had great plans. That of reforming the USSR. He wants to get his hands on : Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan. The Republics of the USSR




Impossible as Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are all in NATO.


----------



## Shero (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Impossible as Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are all in NATO.


 I know, I know, but can you stop a madman?


----------



## Liberty (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Had Bush been stopped by the international community Putin would not have dared do such a thing.
> 
> How about sending Bush a multi TRILLION dollar bill for all the damage his imperialistic terrorism caused in Afghanistan and Iraq?  How about a murder charge against him since there is no statute of limitations on murder?  The Nuremberg Tribunals were conducted after WW II by the international community.  Now that it is the post war period, why not conduct such a tribunal for the murderer?
> 
> ...


It wasn't just "Bush"...remember, we live in a democratically based country, so what about going after the whole congress for it - they voted for it.  Remember 911 was what started it. Wondering how many of us said "ok" about the bombing of the twin towers?

Its always something that starts the war ball rolling.

In this case its a deranged dictator - to me, that is the main difference:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/46...-turbulent-history-since-independence-in-1991


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 26, 2022)

Shero said:


> I know, I know, but can you stop a madman?




One can always enlist and march off into combat.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 26, 2022)

Liberty said:


> It wasn't just "Bush"...remember, we live in a democratically based country, so what about going after the whole congress for it - they voted for it.  Remember 911 was what started it. Wondering how many of us said "ok" about the bombing of the twin towers?
> 
> Its always something that starts the war ball rolling.
> 
> ...




OBL was exiled and living in Pakistan at the time Bush launched his invasion of Afghanistan.  Thus, he targeted the wrong country.  Of course, Pakistan has nuclear weapons and the risk of retaliation was infinitely riskier.  Iraq never posed a threat to the USA as shown in the *Downing Street Memo*.  Recall how we were given all kinds of pro war propaganda at that time ~ that Saddam was about to conquer the world and stratosphere and that the war was necessary in order to avert it (same words we are seeing today about Putin). The *Memo* clearly show it was all a sham in order to create a profit making war for terrorist Bush's pals in the military industrial complex.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> One can always enlist and march off into combat.


Wrong audience here for that Uncle Sam!


----------



## JustBonee (Feb 26, 2022)

While all this is going on .....   don't forget  Russians  and the US  are  up at the Space Station together  

_Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, tensions between the US and Russia are particularly strained here on Earth, prompting concerns that friction could inevitably spill over into the two countries’ longstanding partnership in space. For now, both NASA and Russia say they are still working together to keep the International Space Station operational, as they’ve done during past international turmoil.

Russia is, by and large, the United States’ biggest working partner in space. NASA and Russia’s state space corporation, Roscosmos, jointly operate the ISS, an orbiting laboratory that has become the primary space destination for astronauts hailing from America, Russia, and other nations across the globe. Roscosmos and NASA have been working together on the ISS for nearly three decades now, but the US-Russian partnership goes back even further than that. The two space organizations coordinated on Russia’s former Mir space station, swapped seats on NASA’s Space Shuttle and Russia’s Soyuz rocket, and even worked together during the Apollo era on the Apollo-Soyuz test project._

https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/24/...peration-international-space-station-invasion


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Wrong audience here for that Uncle Sam!
> View attachment 210545







"Old Soldiers Never Die, They Just Fade Away"


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Shero said:


> I know, I know, but can you stop a madman?


I’m disappointed, you seemed to know everything.
But now _you_ ask a question? What a letdown!


----------



## Packerjohn (Feb 26, 2022)

HarryHawk said:


> Russia took over Crimea in 2014 with no negative consequences.  Why would they not come in for another bite of Ukraine?


 I wonder if Putin hasn't been following what Hitler did before WWII started.  Hitler took over 1 country but no one stopped him.  Then he took over another one and no one stopped him.  Dictators can be awful greedy.  They strongly believe in the theory that more is better.


----------



## Judycat (Feb 26, 2022)

Nathan said:


> We don't really want to punish the Russian people, that would backfire and cause them to rally behind Putin.
> Putin is a master 'chess player', his years in the KGB helped hone those skills.    It took years to hunt down and kill Bin Laden, who was just some scruffy dude hiding in 3rd world conditions.   Putin would be a much more difficult target.



There is a story I read of an American reporter who wanted to interview Putin. He described the long wait which included being moved from one room to another, spending hours in each one. When he was finally permitted to meet him in person, he was surprised at what a rat-like person Putin was. There is more to the story but that's what stuck with me. I remember too a picture of Putin with a group of older teens bending an aluminum skillet, and a video of him drawing the butt end of a cat for elementary school children. It was just two legs and a tail with with a dot midway between and the kids couldn't figure out what the heck it was. Putin said, "It is a cat...walking away from you." The guy was always weird.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Judycat said:


> There is a story I read of an American reporter who wanted to interview Putin. He described the long wait which included being moved from one room to another, spending hours in each one. When he was finally permitted to meet him in person, he was surprised at what a rat-like person Putin was. There is more to the story but that's what stuck with me. I remember too a picture of Putin with a group of older teens bending an aluminum skillet, and a video of him drawing the butt end of a cat for elementary school children. It was just two legs and a tail with with a dot midway between and the kids couldn't figure out what the heck it was. Putin said, "It is a cat...walking away from you." The guy was always weird.


The man’s genius goes unnoticed, it seems. You say that he bent an aluminum skillet and 
not a cast iron one! No, he knew not to even try that! Seems like a genius move to me.


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 26, 2022)

_Apollo era on the Apollo-Soyuz test project._

I remember this...it was a big deal!

My long time subscription to National Geographic gave me the info... no Internet back then. Seems I saw some video on TV back then, or maybe a false memory. It was all very exciting.

In those days, I smoked. I recall  buying a pack of Apollo-Soyuz _cigarettes! _
White box, blue label with a space craft on it. I wanted to save it for posterity. When stuck without smokes and without wheels one day, I opened the pack and smoked them, telling myself I couldn't help it and I would save the empty pack.

I did save the empty pack but after several moves, I don't have it anymore.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)




----------



## RadishRose (Feb 26, 2022)




----------



## RadishRose (Feb 26, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


>


OMG Crispy, that's IT!!!!!    Thank you.


----------



## Tom 86 (Feb 26, 2022)

We are already sending Ukraine some of the best weapons to use against Russia.  Seen on the local news this morning what one "ghost" ( otherwise they don't know where it came from or what country)  plane took down 6 Russian planes & 4 helicopters.  One Marine blew up a bridge that stops the Russian tanks from going into Kyiv.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> OMG Crispy, that's IT!!!!!    Thank you.


Russia’s revenge, lung cancer!


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 26, 2022)

_Outspoken opposition to Putin's invasion of Ukraine is growing in Russia - and not just among the autocracy's civilian population. 

Disquiet is also now spreading through some of the countries politicians with one Communist MP, Mikhail Matveev saying outright: 'I think that the war should be stopped immediately.

Matveev is a member of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation (CPRF) which sits in opposition to President Putin and the United Russia party. 

'When I voted for the recognition of the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and the Luhansk People's Republic (LPR), I voted for peace, not for war,' Matveev said

'For Russia to become a shield, so that the Donbas was not bombed, but not for Kyiv to be bombed.'

Ukraine regards both the DPR and LPR as terrorist organizations due to their loyalty to Russia. The Republics are located in the historical Donbas region of Eastern Ukraine. 
_
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nts-Russia-Communist-MP-says-war-stopped.html


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Tom 86 said:


> We are already sending Ukraine some of the best weapons to use against Russia.  Seen on the local news this morning what one "ghost" ( otherwise they don't know where it came from or what country)  plane took down 6 Russian planes & 4 helicopters.  One Marine blew up a bridge that stops the Russian tanks from going into Kyiv.


And a partridge in a pear tree!


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)




----------



## hollydolly (Feb 26, 2022)

RadishRose said:


>


Crackers!!!


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Rather than Putin, the imperialist Bush would be a better example to equate with Hitler.







I got a feeling’ that tonight’s gonna be a good night to 
pull the plug on this thread due to the no politics policy.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I got a feeling’ that tonight’s gonna be a good night to
> pull the plug on this thread due to the no politics policy.


What are you, the Enforcer?  Shut up.  That's right, you heard me.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> What are you, the Enforcer?  Shut up.  That's right, you heard me.


Don’t shoot me, I’m a mere messenger. 
How about a little  with that “”?


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

How original.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> How original.


Thanks, squeaky wheel!


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

Where you live is it true there's NoNameRequired?


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> Where you live is it true there's NoNameRequired?


Yeah, it’s quite a dark place. Kinda like ‘pepper’.
Hey, it’s tragic, what they did to your cornflakes.
But no one thought that you’d really eat them!

Peace now?


----------



## Senenity (Feb 26, 2022)

That little man thinks he has the power to hold the world in his frivolous fingers, (if  anyone interfered)  So much of nonsensical happenings all for the sake of ones  pride and glory.  Wake up R. 
people you'll are bowing to a maniac.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Peace now?


Between us?  Always.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

What if they sent you, with all of your peace now and rainbow dove button thoughts
as punishment to Russia? Maybe give those poor New Yorkers some respite?


----------



## Pepper (Feb 26, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> What if they sent you, with all of your peace now and rainbow dove button thoughts
> as punishment to Russia? Maybe give those poor New Yorkers some respite?


I am in Russia.  99% of my co-op is Russian or Ukrainian.  Spasibo.


----------



## AnnieA (Feb 26, 2022)

We can always get really tough on Putin like we did in 2014 when he 'annexed' Crimea...



.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I am in Russia.  99% of my co-op is Russian or Ukrainian.  Spasibo.


That stick I keep tossing, for you to chase,
it’s not a boomerang you know. Nyet!


----------



## john19485 (Feb 26, 2022)

I thank everyone in harms way should be thinking ahead , stocking up with a little extra stuff, Don't go all out, just a little extra, keep your vehicle full of fuel, know where to take shelter, keep a little extra Med's on hand, first aid kit, store some water,  if we are attacked get away from all Military bases ,exc. just the basic stuff


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

Maybe we’ve been looking at this Russia, Ukraine thing in the wrong light. Maybe, instead of punishment, we need a can do kind of guy who maybe got off on the wrong foot. Consider, Kevin, if you will! ABC, USA, ABC, USA! I think that it’s rather catchy really! What say you?


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 26, 2022)

West agrees to cut Russian banks from Swift payments system: UK, EU, the US and allies take financial nuclear option as they tighten sanctions against Moscow to 'further isolate Russia' and 'cripple Putin's war machine'​
_Russia was tonight cut out of a crucial global banking system as efforts to hit its economy if it invaded Ukraine intensified.

In a co-ordinated move Britain, the US, Canada and the European Union announced selected Russian banks would be excluded from the Swift global payments system.

At the same time they said the would be imposing 'restrictive measures' to prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves 'in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions'.

After talking by telephone to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, Mr Johnson said the West had to do everything possible to change the 'very heavy odds' against Ukraine in its struggle against Moscow's forces.

He confirmed Britain would be sending further arms to the Ukrainians and he said that the financial measures were essential to put pressure on the Kremlin.

'It is incredibly important for tightening the economic ligature around the Putin regime,' he said during a visit to RAF Brize Norton.

Earlier German Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced he was dropping his country's opposition to the move removing a major obstacle to international agreement.

'The horror of what is unfolding in Ukraine is becoming clear to Western audiences and that in turn is putting huge pressure on Western politicians,' Mr Johnson said. 

Britain had been pressing for action on Swift - described by one minister as the 'ultimate economic sanction' - for some time.

Germany and Italy - which both rely heavily on Russia oil and gas imports - were among the countries said to be reluctant.

The move came on the day the expected Russian assault on the the Ukrainian capital Kyiv failed to materialise. 

A statement issued by the White House said: 'We, the leaders of the European Commission, France, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States condemn Putin's war of choice and attacks on the sovereign nation and people of Ukraine.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eyen-commits-cutting-Russian-banks-Swift.html_


----------



## dseag2 (Feb 26, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Good morning, Luv! It would appear that you slept well.
> Did your cornflakes taste a bit salty and soggy today?
> Thanks for your insight! I don’t know what I’d do without it!
> 
> ...





Chris P Bacon said:


> I’m sorry but after thinking it over, I’ve decided not to
> change my screen name to ‘Life’. You can change your
> signature, if you want but I’m just not ready to be so open.


There are several on here who doubt her French heritage, but after seeing how rude, confrontational and self-centered @Shero  is I have no doubt at all.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 26, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Several on t
> 
> There are several on here who doubt her French heritage, but after seeing how rude, confrontational and self-centered @Shero  is I have no doubt at all.


She says she was born in Hawaii, went and lived in France, she's a transient in Australia, is it possible she's banned worldwide?
Britain used to send their riff raff to Australia but that was a long time ago. Still ...


----------



## Shero (Feb 27, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> There are several on here who doubt her French heritage, but after seeing how rude, confrontational and self-centered @Shero  is I have no doubt at all.


Rude? Confrontational? ..that translates to being a strong woman with equally strong opinions of which I am proud!

Self centred… huh? My oh my have we not got a short memory! When you were being slammed in one of the religious threads for : (a) your gayness – who came out and defended you? I did, no one else. (b) when someone likened gay people to an “abomination according to the bible” – who came out again and defended you? Me again! But watch out: Karma bides it’s time. It has a surprising way of taking care of situations. All I have to do is to sit back and watch.


----------



## Lewkat (Feb 27, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Should Bush be excused for his imperialism?   Over a twenty year period the USA attacked two innocent nations, killed a million people, and destroyed their infrastructures.  Millions of people are still hospitalized because of bombings, bullets, attacks, etc. Nobody has sent Bush a bill for his terrorism or even had the guts to petition the UN or world courts for redress of grievances.
> 
> Putin engages in these actions and suddenly everyone is enraged and decides that counter actions must be undertaken.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lewkat (Feb 27, 2022)

oldiebutgoody said:


> For those of you who want to punish Russia, what are you going to do to the USA for starting two needless wars, killing one million people, and destroying the infrastructure of two innocent nations?


In the event you cannot recall, the US was attacked first, and secondly Afghanistan asked us to put down the Taliban, which we did.


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 27, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> She says she was born in Hawaii, went and lived in France, she's a transient in Australia, is it possible she's banned worldwide?
> Britain used to send their riff raff to Australia but that was a long time ago. Still ...


Oi! A bit less of that riff raff talk.
Apparently some of my antecedents were on the first and second fleets, and they weren't sailors or soldiers either.

Riff raff, indeed!


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 27, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> Oi! A bit less of that riff raff talk.
> Apparently some of my antecedents were on the first and second fleets, and they weren't sailors or soldiers either.
> 
> Riff raff, indeed!


Oh, did you not see the disclaimer?


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 27, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> Oh, did you not see the disclaimer?
> 
> View attachment 210647


It was that one word at the end....  "Still!"
Native English speakers like me know exactly how to react to such fightin' words. 
Hold my beer.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 27, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> It was that one word at the end....  "Still!"
> Native English speakers like me know exactly how to react to such fightin' words.
> Hold my beer.


I can explain, to you, what I mean but I can’t understand it for you. You’ve misquoted me, it seems. It’s never been brought to my attention. In this life, or in any others that I may have lived in, that the word “still” was an invitation to do harm to anyone. And I’ve spoken English for several years now myself. You quoted and based your response on something I didn’t say, it seems. You read what I wrote as, “Still!”, which I admit, on the surface and with the exclamation mark after it, that does seem a tad hostile. To me anyways. Still and I don’t mean that in a hostile sense, what I wrote was, “Still …”, meaning I was considering what I’d written.

Now if you need someone to hold your beer, whilst you imaginarily thrash me about, then maybe you have other problems that have nothing to do with what you read or what you comprehend when you do read. I didn’t mention you in any way that I knew I was doing so and I am frankly offended that you would perceive it as such. My words about riff raff were spoken from ye knowledge that was imparted to me, long ago, about Australia getting a start with settlers from Britain being sent there to establish it as a penal colony. If that’s not so then forgive my ignorance but as I say, it was imparted by what I thought to be reputable sources. I’m pretty sure too though, that not all aboard those first few ships of convicts to arrive at Australian shores were riff raff. The ship’s crew and the guards for the convicts were probably fine and upstanding people, even if they likely were outnumbered.

It’s late there now in Australia, I see, by my clock. Maybe you can just finish your beer and let the nightstand hold your empty can, bottle or glass and sleep off your anger towards my words that you seemingly can’t understand. Have a nice rest and sweet dreams, mate! G’day, peace!


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 27, 2022)

Thousands gathered in front of Berlin's Brandenburg Gate on this morning for an anti-war rally amid international rage at the invasion of Ukraine even as Russia's troops pressed towards the capital, Kyiv





MADRID: Demonstrators hold signs reading 'Peace' and wave Ukrainian flags as they gather during a protest against Russia's invasion of Ukraine





Athens Greece





South Korea... ( clever picture of Putin/Hitler )


----------



## hollydolly (Feb 27, 2022)

Oxford England





Washington





New York





IRAQ





Lithuania


----------



## Serenity4321 (Feb 27, 2022)

*Seems to me now is not the time to look back and accuse others of past failures ....now is the time to look at the world and recognize the present  evil that is rearing it's ugly head personified in Putin... *
*May God Bless us all and give us the wisdom to do the right thing***


----------



## RadishRose (Feb 27, 2022)

A growing number of countries have announced Sunday they’re joining a string of nations in closing their airspace to Russian aircrafts after Moscow began its invasion of Ukraine.
Officials for Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, Austria and Iceland all announced the measures on Sunday that would further isolate Russia.
The moves by the nations put even more pressure on Russia, with countries banding together to impose wide-reaching sanctions on Russia and its elite.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/27/can...closing-their-airspace-to-russian-planes.html


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 27, 2022)

Lewkat said:


> In the event you cannot recall, the US was attacked first, and secondly Afghanistan asked us to put down the Taliban, which we did.




Afghanistan did not attack the USA. Al-Qaeda (financed by Saudi Arabia) did. The people there did not ask the US to invade and its majority were/remain loyal to the Talibani government.


----------



## Pink Biz (Feb 27, 2022)

*In Kyiv, Ukraine is a monument commemorating the country’s 1991 independence. The figure at the top is the Slavic Goddess Berehynia, who represents the 'protectoress of the home'.

She holds a viburnum branch, the national symbol for women, motherhood, the soul of the nation, and love.

 *


----------



## Warrigal (Feb 27, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> I can explain, to you, what I mean but I can’t understand it for you. You’ve misquoted me, it seems. It’s never been brought to my attention. In this life, or in any others that I may have lived in, that the word “still” was an invitation to do harm to anyone. And I’ve spoken English for several years now myself. You quoted and based your response on something I didn’t say, it seems. You read what I wrote as, “Still!”, which I admit, on the surface and with the exclamation mark after it, that does seem a tad hostile. To me anyways. Still and I don’t mean that in a hostile sense, what I wrote was, “Still …”, meaning I was considering what I’d written.
> 
> Now if you need someone to hold your beer, whilst you imaginarily thrash me about, then maybe you have other problems that have nothing to do with what you read or what you comprehend when you do read. I didn’t mention you in any way that I knew I was doing so and I am frankly offended that you would perceive it as such. My words about riff raff were spoken from ye knowledge that was imparted to me, long ago, about Australia getting a start with settlers from Britain being sent there to establish it as a penal colony. If that’s not so then forgive my ignorance but as I say, it was imparted by what I thought to be reputable sources. I’m pretty sure too though, that not all aboard those first few ships of convicts to arrive at Australian shores were riff raff. The ship’s crew and the guards for the convicts were probably fine and upstanding people, even if they likely were outnumbered.
> 
> It’s late there now in Australia, I see, by my clock. Maybe you can just finish your beer and let the nightstand hold your empty can, bottle or glass and sleep off your anger towards my words that you seemingly can’t understand. Have a nice rest and sweet dreams, mate! G’day, peace!


I'm pulling your leg, Mate. Don't take everything so seriously.


----------



## Chris P Bacon (Feb 27, 2022)

Warrigal said:


> I'm pulling your leg, Mate. Don't take everything so seriously.


Okay then, I apologize for my overreaction. But I’ve had a few people who seemed to want to have me drawn and quartered. I don’t try to offend others but I do realize that sometimes, with issues important to our hearts, any of us can become short sighted.   Namaste and thank you for getting my blood flowing this morning. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie!


----------



## dseag2 (Feb 27, 2022)

Shero said:


> Rude? Confrontational? ..that translates to being a strong woman with equally strong opinions of which I am proud!
> 
> Self centred… huh? My oh my have we not got a short memory! When you were being slammed in one of the religious threads for : (a) your gayness – who came out and defended you? I did, no one else. (b) when someone likened gay people to an “abomination according to the bible” – who came out again and defended you? Me again! But watch out: Karma bides it’s time. It has a surprising way of taking care of situations. All I have to do is to sit back and watch.


Thank you for defending my "gayness" but the fact that you call it "gayness" says so much.  You make it sound like I am a pariah in this forum and you are the only one who has come to my defense.  There are many who support me in this forum, so as much as I appreciate your support I don't need it.   

Enjoy this explanation of what Karma really is, and don't hold your breath waiting for something bad to happen to me.  Fast forward to 3:02.


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## jerry old (Feb 28, 2022)

You do realize that Mr. Putin does not give a hoot in hell what we think, what NATO thinks, what the world (save China) thinks.
He is a lot of things, but he is not stupid, war crazed yes, stupid no.


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## StarSong (Feb 28, 2022)

dseag2 said:


> Thank you for defending my "gayness" but the fact that you call it "gayness" says so much.  You make it sound like I am a pariah in this forum and you are the only one who has come to my defense.  There are many who support me in this forum, so as much as I appreciate your support I don't need it.
> 
> Enjoy this explanation of what Karma really is, and don't hold your breath waiting for something bad to happen to me.  Fast forward to 3:02.


Great clip, thanks for posting it.


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## StarSong (Feb 28, 2022)

jerry old said:


> *You do realize that Mr. Putin does not give a hoot in hell what we think, what NATO thinks, what the world (save China) thinks.*
> He is a lot of things, but he is not stupid, war crazed yes, stupid no.


This may or may not be true, particularly when it involves other nations imposing sanctions and stripping Russian oligarchs of assets.


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## garyt1957 (Feb 28, 2022)

Autumn72 said:


> So as in world war2 we waited and it became bigger that we lost more than any other country because they was allowed to regroup as was mentioned above just like Hitler...to be concerned of China North Korea and Russia closing in on us this time 3 countries not just Germany.
> As we allow the Amish Germany run by men only to run a ok Corral for their male population they can't tell you anything of America's History no school after 8th grade. To keep them without a means to join the world as they say is English
> I can not understand how a German based religious culture is allowed to be above the law when we are not. I believe they should go back to Germany without the women if they rather stay. Yet they have the upper hand by ripping families apart in allowing rapes of children is closing their eyes to all this Daisy issue going on and the law enforcement will never be fired think there needs to be a war too.


What did I just read?


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 28, 2022)

jerry old said:


> You do realize that Mr. Putin does not give a hoot in hell what we think, what NATO thinks, what the world (save China) thinks.
> He is a lot of things, but he is not stupid, war crazed yes, stupid no.


I believe you are partially correct in your statement. Sure Mr. Putin doesn't give a hoot in hell what we think or say on this forum , but he definitely does when it comes to NATO. This is one of the main reasons in his head that he wants countries to stay the hell out of NATO. These sanction coming from these countries will hit his country hard in the financial area and yes that is very important to him. He certainly is not stupid, but is very delusional at times making his thinking process and decisions not the greatest. Not even for his own country as witness by the thousands of people there who are against what he is doing.


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## StarSong (Feb 28, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> What did I just read?


I couldn't figure it out either.


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 28, 2022)

garyt1957 said:


> What did I just read?


I also didn't understand it and my career was as a High School History Teacher.


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## jerry old (Feb 28, 2022)

Yea, keep putting more and more pressure on a man (Putin), put more and more  sanctions that make his country unstable,
keep tightening the screws and act surprised when he acts irrational.

He is a tyrant, these people need breathing space, will he be able to tolerate the heat without doing something irrational?

Putin cannot be treated like a normal person, no tyrant is normal-do not be surprised when he does something
that may result in war for all of us.


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 28, 2022)

jerry old said:


> Yea, keep putting more and more pressure on a man (Putin), put more and more  sanctions that make his country unstable,
> keep tightening the screws and act surprised when he acts irrational.
> 
> He is a tyrant, these people need breathing space, will he be able to tolerate the heat without doing something irrational?
> ...


I presented this in another thread. In history what happened to Adolf Hitler when the pressure got the best of him and things all started crumbling and deteriorating around him? He lost it and committed suicide. We have all compared this man to Hitler in many ways and one being the way he thinks. He will reach his limit where things will start really falling apart for him and his country. It is already beginning, but it will get much worse. Once that occurs watch his actions also slowly deteriorate which I believe will lead to his own destruction.


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## RadishRose (Feb 28, 2022)

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) on Monday recommended that all Russian and Belarusian athletes be temporarily barred from competition.

In a statement, the IOC made a recommendation regarding "the dilemma the Olympic Movement is currently facing" due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The committee previously told organizations to cancel Russian events.

"In order to protect the integrity of global sports competitions and for the safety of all the participants, the IOC EB recommends that International Sports Federations and sports event organizers not invite or allow the participation of Russian and Belarusian athletes and officials in international competitions," the organization wrote.

In addition to the ban, the IOC showed support for those protesting the invasion.

https://www.newsweek.com/ioc-calls-worldwide-ban-all-russian-belarusian-athletes-1683215


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 28, 2022)

RadishRose said:


> The International Olympic Committee (IOC) on Monday recommended that all Russian and Belarusian athletes be temporarily barred from competition.
> 
> In a statement, the IOC made a recommendation regarding "the dilemma the Olympic Movement is currently facing" due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The committee previously told organizations to cancel Russian events.
> 
> ...


Fifa and UEFA has also kicked out all Russian National Teams and clubs from World Cup and other competitions.


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## Warrigal (Feb 28, 2022)

The economic sanctions are starting to bite



> As Russian President Vladimir Putin wages war against Ukraine, his country’s economy has begun to collapse under the weight of unprecedented penalties from the Biden administration, United Kingdom, European Union and other major economic players.
> 
> “Everyone in the economic sphere, the banking sphere, knows we’re in new territory here—a coordinated shutdown of a country’s economy with the strongest arrow being in the heart of the banking sector,” said George Lopez, expert on economic sanctions at University of Notre Dame’s Keough School of Global Affairs.
> 
> ...


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## AnnieA (Feb 28, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> I presented this in another thread. In history what happened to Adolf Hitler when the pressure got the best of him and things all started crumbling and deteriorating around him? He lost it and committed suicide. We have all compared this man to Hitler in many ways and one being the way he thinks. He will reach his limit where things will start really falling apart for him and his country. It is already beginning, but it will get much worse. Once that occurs watch his actions also slowly deteriorate which I believe will lead to his own destruction.



I think his days are numbered whether by suicide, a coup, or as a casualty of WWIII. The worry is how much destruction he'll unleash on the world before he dies.


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## Signe The Survivor (Feb 28, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> I think his days are numbered whether by suicide, a coup, or as a casualty of WWIII. The worry is how much destruction he'll unleash on the world before he dies.


The sad thing he and his army will do destruction, but just like Hitler he will go too far and come up against something that he cannot defeat and that will either end him by suicide or someone will kill him.


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## hollydolly (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> The sad thing he and his army will do destruction, but just like Hitler he will go too far and come up against something that he cannot defeat and that will either end him by suicide or someone will kill him.


The problem now, due to modern technology  he can create critical damage on the world   very much more  quickly  than Hitler ever could .....Chemical warfare, cyber warfare, Operational  warfare.. so many terrible things can be wreaked on the world if he's not removed  from his position of power  very quickly


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## rgp (Mar 1, 2022)

I applaud the countries that are closing airspace to Russian commercial airliners !


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> The problem now, due to modern technology  he can create critical damage on the world   very much more  quickly  than Hitler ever could .....Chemical warfare, cyber warfare, Operational  warfare.. so many terrible things can be wreaked on the world if he's not removed  from his position of power  very quickly


I agree with you. I think the man is insane, but when speaking about chemical/nuclear warfare I would hope that like with any country there are other people in his system that are in a better mindset that could ultimately override something such as that decision. Sure he is the President, but a decision such as that power which results is total disaster could be over ridden. I would hope that decision is not left in the hands of just one person it push that button. I know when there were talks about our recent past President using those sorts of tactics, I did not believe one bit that a decision of that magnitude would be just left to him if even those things were even true. I think the same can be said for any country even North Korea who has used them to shoot them off into the ocean which is horrible enough because that starts things like Tsunamis and Earthquakes, but for that President to use those weapons towards another country it would be like committing world suicide. That to me is not something just one man can make a decision on and even in that country, I wouldn't think it would be just left up to him.


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## Nathan (Mar 1, 2022)

> What can the world do to punish Russia?


Sorry in advance, I'm not normally "hawkish" but I think Putin's unequivocal evil is well documented.

I would support deployment of Stealth Bomber flyovers in the skies of Moscow.


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## hollydolly (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> I agree with you. I think the man is insane, but when speaking about chemical/nuclear warfare I would hope that like with any country there are other people in his system that are in a better mindset that could ultimately override something such as that decision. Sure he is the President, but a decision such as that power which results is total disaster could be over ridden. I would hope that decision is not left in the hands of just one person it push that button. I know when there were talks about our recent past President using those sorts of tactics, I did not believe one bit that a decision of that magnitude would be just left to him if even those things were even true. I think the same can be said for any country even North Korea who has used them to shoot them off into the ocean which is horrible enough because that starts things like Tsunamis and Earthquakes, but for that President to use those weapons towards another country it would be like committing world suicide. That to me is not something just one man can make a decision on and even in that country, I wouldn't think it would be just left up to him.


yes I agree with you and I would desperately hope that you we're right , however we're thinking with a western head and not an Eastern European Government head..and they've always been unstable and willing to carry out their President's orders without too many questions for fear of repercussions on themselves and their families ...


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

hollydolly said:


> yes I agree with you and I would desperately hope that you we're right , however we're thinking with a western head and not an Eastern European Government head..and they've always been unstable and willing to carry out their President's orders without too many questions for fear of repercussions on themselves and their families ...


Yes I understand that our views are quite different then those of the Eastern European Government, but as we have seen with the thousands of regular people in Russia who have already protested over this inhuman attack on Ukraine and Putin himself that there are many upon many people who are against this. I would hope and I do think there are some in the high up government that are against this, but they need to stand up against it as well. I understand why they are extremely afraid to do so because most of those who do are imprisoned or even killed. This even happened with Hitler. There was even a plot to kill Hitler in July of 1944.


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## Nathan (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> I presented this in another thread. In history what happened to Adolf Hitler when the pressure got the best of him and things all started crumbling and deteriorating around him? He lost it and committed suicide. We have all compared this man to Hitler in many ways and one being the way he thinks. He will reach his limit where things will start really falling apart for him and his country. It is already beginning, but it will get much worse. Once that occurs watch his actions also slowly deteriorate which I believe will lead to his own destruction.


Hitler had a considerable number of mental health issues...List of alleged disorders.  There are also reports of Hilter using Cocaine and opiates.

Putin has always been the rock solid soldier, KGB agent and stoic leader, we may have to wait until God strikes him down.


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Sorry in advance, I'm not normally "hawkish" but I think Putin's unequivocal evil is well documented.
> 
> I would support deployment of Stealth Bomber flyovers in the skies of Moscow.


This could be a situation if Putin does take it as far as to start invading other countries such as Finland and Sweden.


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

Nathan said:


> Hitler had a considerable number of mental health issues...List of alleged disorders.  There are also reports of Hilter using Cocaine and opiates.
> 
> Putin has always been the rock solid soldier, KGB agent and stoic leader, we may have to wait until God strikes him down.


I feel Putin though does have some delusions and maybe it might be his huge ego just taking over that he can just conquer anything. That might be his demise. Sooner or later he is going to bite off more than he can chew.


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## hollydolly (Mar 1, 2022)

_This is the astonishing moment dozens of diplomats from around the world today walked out during a speech by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov at a Geneva disarmament conference in protest against Moscow's invasion of Ukraine. 

Diplomats from countries including Britain, United States and France stood up and filed out of the room when Lavrov's pre-recorded video message to the U.N. Human Rights Council began to play. 

During his speech, the foreign minister blamed Ukraine for the war and claimed Kyiv has been seeking to acquire nuclear weapons - a 'real danger' that required a Russian response.

But Lavrov delivered his speech to a thin crowd after dozens of diplomats staged a walk-out to protest Russia's invasion of Ukraine as they did at a parallel U.N. meeting in Geneva on Tuesday.

They stood in a circle outside the meeting for the duration of Lavrov's speech, holding a Ukrainian flag. Lavrov was supposed to attend the session in person but the visit was cancelled at the last minute, with Moscow blaming 'anti-Russian sanctions' imposed by EU countries. 





_
Diplomats from countries including Britain, United States and France stood up and filed out of the room when Lavrov's pre-recorded video message to the U.N. Human Rights Council began to play










The diplomats stood in a circle outside the meeting for the duration of Lavrov's speech, holding a Ukrainian flag,

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...nister-says-Russia-forced-invade-Ukraine.html


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## StarSong (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> I agree with you. I think the man is insane, but when speaking about chemical/nuclear warfare I would hope that like with any country there are other people in his system that are in a better mindset that could ultimately override something such as that decision. Sure he is the President, but a decision such as that power which results is total disaster could be over ridden. I would hope that decision is not left in the hands of just one person it push that button. I know when there were talks about our recent past President using those sorts of tactics, I did not believe one bit that a decision of that magnitude would be just left to him if even those things were even true. I think the same can be said for any country even North Korea who has used them to shoot them off into the ocean which is horrible enough because that starts things like Tsunamis and Earthquakes, but for that President to use those weapons towards another country it would be like committing world suicide. That to me is not something just one man can make a decision on and even in that country, I wouldn't think it would be just left up to him.


I don't believe Russia or North Korea have Western style constraints on Putin or Kim Jong-un, or on their ability to command their military.    
These men don't brook much policy disagreement by their advisors. Naysayers disappear quickly. 
By all accounts, Un has absolute power.

The world would be a safer place were this not true.


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## Chris P Bacon (Mar 1, 2022)

How about if Neil Young and Joni Mitchell forbid their music from being played over Russian airwaves? Boy oh boy, that’d show Mr Putin that musicians are certainly against his actions! It’s time that somebody get tough on this and put an end to the suffering so we can be the happy, shiny world we were hoping to be after Covid was no longer a thing! Phooey!


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

StarSong said:


> I don't believe Russia or North Korea have Western style constraints on Putin or Kim Jong-un, or on their ability to command their military.
> These men don't brook much policy disagreement by their advisors. Naysayers disappear quickly.
> By all accounts, Un has absolute power.
> 
> The world would be a safer place were this not true.


Ultimate power, I don't think there is a single person who owns that. They may believe they do, but if things got that crazy there would be too many naysayers to make disappear quickly. In the case of Kim Jong -un it is very difficult to determine what really goes on there, but I would hope if he decided to destroy the world many even in his own country would rise against that and him. Do you really think people want there existence to end by one crazy person making a decision? I highly doubt many do.


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

Chris P Bacon said:


> How about if Neil Young and Joni Mitchell forbid their music from being played over Russian airwaves? Boy oh boy, that’d show Mr Putin that musicians are certainly against his actions! It’s time that somebody get tough on this and put an end to the suffering so we can be the *happy, shiny world *we were hoping to be after Covid was no longer a thing! Phooey!


Maybe the band R.E.M. can go over there and perform this song and things will become as you say a happy, shiny world.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> Fifa and UEFA has also kicked out all Russian National Teams and clubs from World Cup and other competitions.


All this sets a precedent. It's knee jerked and feel good decisions. What do these competitors (tennis, gymnastics, soccer, etc.) have to do with their government? They have no influence on what Putin does.


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> All this sets a precedent. It's knee jerked and feel good decisions. What do these competitors (tennis, gymnastics, soccer, etc.) have to do with their government? They have no influence on what Putin does.


I agree with you that it is sad for these athletes(most of which are probably against this)  that they have to be affected by their governments and Presidents actions. This sort of thing has happened for decades where countries have pulled out of the Olympics including the United States boycotting the 1980 Summer Olympics when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.


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## mellowyellow (Mar 1, 2022)

A Russian professor, Valery Solovey, has claimed Vladimir Putin has hidden his family members in an underground bunker to protect them from the unfolding conflict. “In fact, it is not a bunker, but a whole underground city, equipped with the latest science and technology.”

He warned: “I hope this means something to you?


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## mellowyellow (Mar 1, 2022)

President Joe Biden for the first time is sending Ukraine Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.  The missiles could be used to shoot down Russian helicopters.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Mar 1, 2022)

Signe The Survivor said:


> I agree with you that it is sad for these athletes(most of which are probably against this)  that they have to be affected by their governments and Presidents actions. This sort of thing has happened for decades where countries have pulled out of the Olympics including the United States boycotting the 1980 Summer Olympics when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.


It's completely different when countries boycott or deny their own teams participation. In the current situation, entities/clubs/organizations are banning sports players from Russia. Furthermore, we made all kinds of noise about China's human rights violations around Summer 2008 and Winter 2022 Olympics but still allowed our Olympians to compete. The reasoning was that they trained for 4 years and it would be unfair to deny them the opportunities.


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## john19485 (Mar 1, 2022)

i


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## Signe The Survivor (Mar 1, 2022)

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> It's completely different when countries boycott or deny their own teams participation. In the current situation, entities/clubs/organizations are banning sports players from Russia. Furthermore, we made all kinds of noise about China's human rights violations around Summer 2008 and Winter 2022 Olympics but still allowed our Olympians to compete. The reasoning was that they trained for 4 years and it would be unfair to deny them the opportunities.


I see what you are saying and you make complete sense. It is unfair to the athletes because like I said the majority of them are not in agreement with this whole situation. I think however organizations have to take a strong stance on these sort of matters because they most likely have sponsors breathing down there necks and threatening to pull out if they don't make a stance. It might not be the correct thing and certainly not right for the athletes, but with most anything money is what makes things go.


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## AnnieA (Mar 1, 2022)

john19485 said:


> I pray for those American Military that are running special opps tonight inside Ukraine



They're veterans, not actively serving.  So proud of these volunteers!  There's a German special ops vet with them,  several  from the UK  and 60 more from the UK on the way.  All are paying for their gear and travel costs.  Expect more will follow in days to come.  Heros!


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## jerry old (Mar 1, 2022)

I had some vague knowledge about the corruption in Ukraine.
Ukraine, as many of the nations that became independent in the 90's have had their problems with corruption.
Primarily, the elite in the Ukraine have continued to rob their fellow citizens.

That part of the world is still run by oligarchs and the elite, this is not a big deal in that part of the world, it is just the way it is.


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## Geezer Garage (Mar 1, 2022)

The same thing could be said about are own country, but not in such a blatant manner.



jerry old said:


> That part of the world is still run by oligarchs and the elite, this is not a big deal in that part of the world, it is just the way it is.


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## AnnieA (Mar 1, 2022)

Geezer Garage said:


> The same thing could be said about are own country, but not in such a blatant manner.



It can be said about most of the world.  There are a very wealthy few who manipulate us all; they're just not always on the same page with each other.


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## john19485 (Mar 1, 2022)

22


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## AnnieA (Mar 1, 2022)

john19485 said:


> active duty, not talking about the  volunteers.



Got a link to back that?  Every search hit says veterans.

.


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## john19485 (Mar 1, 2022)

AnnieA said:


> Got a link to back that?  Every search hit says veterans.
> 
> .


said somthing that I should not have sorry


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## mellowyellow (Mar 1, 2022)

_WASHINGTON — When Russia seized Crimea in 2014, President Vladimir V. Putin was so worried about Russian casualty figures coming to light that authorities accosted journalists who tried to cover funerals of some of the 400 troops killed during that one-month campaign.

But Moscow may be losing that many soldiers daily in Mr. Putin’s latest invasion of Ukraine, American and European officials said. The mounting toll for Russian troops exposes a potential weakness for the Russian president at a time when he is still claiming, publicly, that he is engaged only in a limited military operation in Ukraine’s separatist east.

No one can say with certainty just how many Russian troops have died since last Thursday, when they began what is turning into a long march to Kyiv, the capital. Some Russian units have put down their arms and refused to fight, the Pentagon said Tuesday. Major Ukrainian cities have withstood the onslaught thus far.

American officials had expected the northeastern city of Kharkiv to fall in a day, for example, but Ukrainian troops there have fought back and regained control despite furious rocket fire. The bodies of Russian soldiers have been left in areas surrounding Kharkiv. Videos and photos on social media show charred remains of tanks and armored vehicles, their crews dead or wounded…………._

 Source: New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/us/politics/russia-ukraine-war-deaths.html


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## mellowyellow (Mar 1, 2022)

Plagued by poor morale as well as fuel and food shortages, some Russian troops in Ukraine have surrendered en masse or sabotaged their own vehicles to avoid fighting, a senior Pentagon official said on Tuesday. Source: New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/world/europe/russia-troops-pentagon.html


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## jerry old (Mar 2, 2022)

Tyrants:
became interested in modern tyrants
read the reasons why we invaded and destroyed Iraq
I was ashamed


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## Warrigal (Mar 2, 2022)

mellowyellow said:


> Plagued by poor morale as well as fuel and food shortages, some Russian troops in Ukraine have surrendered en masse or sabotaged their own vehicles to avoid fighting, a senior Pentagon official said on Tuesday. Source: New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/world/europe/russia-troops-pentagon.html


In time of war the first casualty is truth. No offence but I would take such statement from "a Pentagon official" with a grain of salt. I do believe that they re having supply issues though.


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## StarSong (Mar 2, 2022)

If Russia is hell bent on absorbing Ukraine it obviously has the resources to do so.  It sure looks like a costly, Pyrrhic victory though.  

Putin probably didn't anticipate Russian citizens and previously friendly members of Russia's oligarchy speaking out against this war. The international community's swift and united condemnation had to be a little surprising, too. Even Switzerland(!) is peeved enough to be taking sides, and China isn't offering public support either. 

Russian dance companies, artists, sports teams, other athletes, celebrities, and super-rich are suddenly _persona non grata_, with "unvitations" being issued by the score. Gotta be painful. 

As many countries have learned the hard way, superior firepower doesn't guarantee victories, much less lasting ones. Winning hearts and minds through bullying firepower? Hasn't worked yet... 

Occupying a country that doesn't want you costs both sides plenty in blood and resources. Difference is that the foreign occupiers become exhausted and disenchanted by the process long before the people living there.

A lot of countries - Russia and the US included - repeat this lesson many times over without understanding it.


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## Nathan (Mar 2, 2022)

@StarSong,   Well said.   Foreign invaders never have as much at stake as those defending their homeland.    History gets repeated by those failing to remember or understand painful lessons of the past.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Mar 2, 2022)

Nathan said:


> @StarSong,   Well said.   Foreign invaders never have as much at stake as those defending their homeland.  *  History gets repeated by those failing to remember or understand painful lessons of the past.*


And Putin would not need to go far in history. How could he not see that after the US invested enormous treasure and some blood in Afghanistan over 22 years, we handed it back to the Taliban and hightailed it out of there? The insurgency in the Ukraine will create a great deal of sadness for Russian mothers.


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