# Self-Defense Goes Awry Without a Firearm!



## imp (Jan 27, 2016)

And I thought the Danes were a pretty straight-thinking society.   imp

*"Why Teen Who Fended Off Attacker Now Faces Charges Herself"

*"A 17-year-old girl who was attacked by a man in a city center at night told police that he knocked her to the ground and unbuttoned her pants, trying to undress her, but she turned on him with pepper spray and was able to escape. Her assailant fled and hasn’t been caught, but the victim is facing legal consequences."

“It is illegal to possess and use pepper spray, so she will likely be charged for that,” local police spokesman Knud Kirsten of Sønderborg, Denmark, told TV Syd about the incident, which occurred at 10 p.m. on Jan. 20. Her fine will be around 500 kroner ($73), and many commenters on TV Syd’s story have offered to pay it for her."
"According to the Local, the backlash against the fine also has to do with the fact that the assault took place near a migrant asylum center. Although it’s not known whether the perpetrator was an asylum seeker or refugee, there has been a spike this month in the number of local women reporting harassment by male residents of the center.  
In the U.S., pepper spray, or “self-defense spray,” is legal in all states, but there are restrictions on sizes and strengths in some areas. Most states with limited use specify that people must be non-felons over the age of 18 to purchase the sprays."


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 27, 2016)

Nothing new here, either in a victim being penalized or the perp being a refugee.


----------



## Debby (Jan 28, 2016)

What's the firearm mentioned for?


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 28, 2016)

Debby said:


> What's the firearm mentioned for?



I must have missed that ...


----------



## WhatInThe (Jan 28, 2016)

I don't care about the use of the pepper spray. Maybe her Danish lawyers can plea bargan it down to a possession charge. She gets charged with a fine or her parents get charged with a funeral or hospital bill. Door number one please.


----------



## imp (Jan 28, 2016)

*Difficult and Slippery Slope*

*"Door number one please."

*Use of means of lethal force carries with it in the self defense arena a terrible mental burden, as well as raises issues normally not thought about. Some thug appears suddenly, confronting you, making demands, moving very quickly, obviously armed: talk him down? Ridiculous thought. Run? Maybe shot or stabbed in the back. Blow that whistle you carry with you? Good luck with that! 

If you truly fear your life is in danger, self-defense law allows use of lethal force. If you can react in time, and kill the perp, your immediate concern, preservation of life, is resolved; but, other, unimaginably complex troubles will inevitably begin to present.

imp


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 28, 2016)

imp said:


> *"Door number one please."
> 
> *Use of means of lethal force carries with it in the self defense arena a terrible mental burden, as well as raises issues normally not thought about. Some thug appears suddenly, confronting you, making demands, moving very quickly, obviously armed: talk him down? Ridiculous thought. Run? Maybe shot or stabbed in the back. Blow that whistle you carry with you? Good luck with that!
> 
> ...



For some. It depends upon whether they are sheep or wolves.

It's like the distinction (mine, anyway) between a "soldier" and a "warrior". A soldier does their duty, but after shooting an enemy and seeing the results they lose it. Their brain just isn't wired to accept the fact that they've killed another human being. This is probably 95% of the population.

But a warrior? They can resolve any emotions about killing the enemy. They can justify in their own minds that it is kill or be killed. 

Same on the streets here. I would guess that 95% of the civilian population would have some form of PTSD after a potentially lethal street encounter.

But the remaining 5%? Bring it on, punk!


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 28, 2016)

Has she actually been fined?



> now she *may* be the one who ends up in legal trouble.
> “It is illegal to possess and use pepper spray, so *she will likely be charged for that*,” local police spokesman Knud Kirsten told TV Syd.



A lot of frothing going on about something that very likely is not going to happen. 
Wake me when she is actually fined for using/possessing pepper spray.


----------



## Don M. (Jan 28, 2016)

Europe, and especially Germany, are on the doorstep of major problems with this influx of "refugees".  The New Years Eve problems in Cologne, are just the start of what may very well become fairly frequent.  Cologne has a major carnival coming and there may have to be a major police presence to avoid a repeat of NY Eve.

http://www.voanews.com/content/cologne-attacks-boost-immigrant-foes-in-germany/3163418.html

Angela Merkels "social experiment" may cost Germany dearly.


----------



## imp (Jan 28, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> ......Same on the streets here. I would guess that 95% of the civilian population would have some form of PTSD after a potentially lethal street encounter.



This is exactly why self defense instructors, not the martial arts type, but rather firearms self defense, take much time to predetermine each applicant's ability to understand and adhere to the very stringent mindset necessary to ensure that, should that one in a lifetime present itself, fight (shoot), and remain alive and relatively unscathed, the means taught will be employed, no matter what, when, or where.

The other side of the successful self-defense event where the adversary is not killed, but rather maimed, the defending individual will be faced with an onslaught of litigation, just as was Bernhard Goetz. He was set upon by muggers several times (New York City, I believe), finally against his own better judgment, illegally bought a revolver and began carrying it on the subway he rode every day. Three muggers wielding sharpened screwdrivers as weapons demanded his money. Instead he shot them. I think they wound up charging him with illegal possession only. But the punk spending the rest of his miserable days in a wheelchair? Family sued Goetz. The moral is: One, he could have given them his money and MAYBE remained unharmed (or injured or dead), or two, he could have displayed his gun and run them off. That option would have left them intact to prey upon others on another day of crime, a fact Goetz mentioned in court.    imp


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 28, 2016)

Yep - if you legally carry a gun - or even illegally, I suppose - you have to realize that who you point it at will have a high likelihood of dying.

Bernie got off easy - I got 3 months in County for defending myself, unarmed, against 3 punks with weapons. I'm still bitter about that, 12 years later.


----------



## Butterfly (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't know what self-defense law ais where the girl lives -- she's not in the US.Wherever it is, pepper spray shouldn't be illegal, IMO.  How's a woman supposed to defend herself??  OR is she just expected to submit?  Shameful.


----------



## Butterfly (Jan 29, 2016)

I carry a small pepper spray canister on my keys.  It goes where I go, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.


----------



## Debby (Jan 29, 2016)

So Butterfly, are you allowed to carry it?  I just looked it up and in Canada we can't.  Not legal which I think is crazy.  And if someone uses the stuff to do a robbery, at least the victim might be alive at the end of it, and then you catch the robber and charge him for using it (along with other things) but if a woman uses it when she's being raped, than she has a chance of escaping, nobody has to get killed and mostly she'll just have had a chance to get away.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 29, 2016)

As always there are drawbacks to any self-defense weapon, and pepper spray is no exception.

First, the majority of what is sold to the public is cheap, weak spray. You need to find police- or military-grade CS.

Second, there are a few folks that can take a faceful of pepper spray and laugh. They think it's breath spray.

Third, there is always the danger of having the spray taken from you and turned against you. 

Those points being known, it's still an excellent defensive weapon.


----------



## Debby (Jan 29, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Yep - if you legally carry a gun - or even illegally, I suppose - you have to realize that who you point it at will have a high likelihood of dying.
> 
> Bernie got off easy - I got 3 months in County for defending myself, unarmed, against 3 punks with weapons. I'm still bitter about that, 12 years later.





Well that doesn't sound right but I would bet that there are a million plus stories where 'justice' was a travesty you know?  Sorry to hear that you're one of those stories Phil  and I hope that the bitter moments aren't too frequent.  After all, you do have Senior Forum to come to in order to waste some time, chat up a storm, entertain and generally speaking, give real meaning to your life right ?


----------



## imp (Jan 29, 2016)

Debby said:


> So Butterfly, are you allowed to carry it?  I just looked it up and in Canada we can't.  Not legal which I think is crazy.  And if someone uses the stuff to do a robbery, at least the victim might be alive at the end of it, and then you catch the robber and charge him for using it (along with other things) but if a woman uses it when she's being raped, than she has a chance of escaping, nobody has to get killed and mostly she'll just have had a chance to get away.



See, here is where we differ in our thinking. You seem to favor a vicious criminal being better off by not being disposed of during the commission of a heinous act? If he escapes, or is minimally sentenced, the likelihood of repeat criminal activity is statistically very high. Once a criminal always a criminal, is well established more often than not. Rehabilitate? How effective is it? Time and time again, incarcerees polled about their planned future habits when freed, admit they likely will return to criminal activity, and be very careful about getting caught again.    imp


----------



## Butterfly (Jan 29, 2016)

Debby said:


> So Butterfly, are you allowed to carry it?  I just looked it up and in Canada we can't.  Not legal which I think is crazy.  And if someone uses the stuff to do a robbery, at least the victim might be alive at the end of it, and then you catch the robber and charge him for using it (along with other things) but if a woman uses it when she's being raped, than she has a chance of escaping, nobody has to get killed and mostly she'll just have had a chance to get away.



Pepper spray is legal here, Mace is not.  My son bought it for me several years ago after I had an unpleasant encounter with a crazy in a parking lot after work.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 29, 2016)

Debby said:


> Well that doesn't sound right but I would bet that there are a million plus stories where 'justice' was a travesty you know?  Sorry to hear that you're one of those stories Phil  and I hope that the bitter moments aren't too frequent.  After all, you do have Senior Forum to come to in order to waste some time, chat up a storm, entertain and generally speaking, give real meaning to your life right ?



When you put it that way ... I suppose so. 

Although if the sum total of my life's hopes, dreams and ambitions has turned out to be posting pics like this -



... then I'm a pretty sorry excuse of a human being ...


----------



## Bluecheese50 (Jan 30, 2016)

Only the very SICK would wish to carry a firearm, or weapon of any kind, which it is illegal in the UK, thank goodness.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Must be a lot of us sick people in the U.S. ...


----------



## Bluecheese50 (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Must be a lot of us sick people in the U.S. ...



It would appear so as they have such a terrible problem where guns are concerned!


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> It would appear so as they have such a terrible problem where guns are concerned!



As has been mentioned in other threads the problem with guns here has been greatly misrepresented by the media. Our gun crime rate is actually falling, but the statistics are manipulated to make it appear that people are running berserk in the streets shooting each other.

School crime as an example - it is actually safer to be in schools than it was in the '70's and '80's, but to hear the press tell it schools are the new Wild West.


----------



## oldman (Jan 30, 2016)

I always carry a small canister of pepper spray that fits in my pocket. I have never had to use it, but a few years ago while running, a dog up the street almost got his comeuppance. I buy it at Walmart and toss it every year for a fresh one. It's not necessarily needed to do, but I like to have a fresh one just in case.


----------



## Bluecheese50 (Jan 30, 2016)

oldman said:


> I always carry a small canister of pepper spray that fits in my pocket. I have never had to use it, but a few years ago while running, a dog up the street almost got his comeuppance. I buy it at Walmart and toss it every year for a fresh one. It's not necessarily needed to do, but I like to have a fresh one just in case.



Well don't bring it to the UK, you could be arrested for just carrying pepper spray, let alone using it.


----------



## Karen99 (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Yep - if you legally carry a gun - or even illegally, I suppose - you have to realize that who you point it at will have a high likelihood of dying.
> 
> Bernie got off easy - I got 3 months in County for defending myself, unarmed, against 3 punks with weapons. I'm still bitter about that, 12 years later.



Wow, Phil..something wrong with that picture.  I think about  guys who serve like 20 years for murder then get exonerated...but injustice bites...always does. I'm sorry that happened to you.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> Well don't bring it to the UK, you could be arrested for just carrying pepper spray, let alone using it.



*raises hand*

Question: is there anything you CAN do in the UK? 

I never knew you folks were so restrictive on so many levels. I used to hold the UK in high favor - now, not so much.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> Wow, Phil..something wrong with that picture.  I think about  guys who serve like 20 years for murder then get exonerated...but injustice bites...always does. I'm sorry that happened to you.




Thank you. 

And oh yes - I guess my situation could have been much worse.


----------



## Karen99 (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And oh yes - I guess my situation could have been much worse.



well..I wasn't trying to lessen your misfortune..neither scenerio is  ok..and 3 months for defending yourself ain't no picnic.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> well..I wasn't trying to lessen your misfortune..neither scenerio is  ok..and 3 months for defending yourself ain't no picnic.



Well ... on the plus side, I met Bubba. :cower:


----------



## Karen99 (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Well ... on the plus side, I met Bubba. :cower:



mg1::eewwk:mg1:


----------



## SeaBreeze (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> As has been mentioned in other threads the problem with guns here has been greatly misrepresented by the media. Our gun crime rate is actually falling, but the statistics are manipulated to make it appear that people are running berserk in the streets shooting each other.



Very true about the media representation, dramatic headlines sell and most corporations follow the money.  People who are scared and want the government to babysit them will never listen to the facts, not valid in their worlds.  I'm very happy to be born and raised in the USA, and wise enough not to take biased media opinion as hard fact.  Unfortunately, you don't get much straight information on "news" reports these days.




oldman said:


> I always carry a small canister of pepper spray that fits in my pocket. I have never had to use it, but a few years ago while running, a dog up the street almost got his comeuppance. I buy it at Walmart and toss it every year for a fresh one. It's not necessarily needed to do, but I like to have a fresh one just in case.



I carry this if I'm walking alone in a park or wooded area, for protection against coyotes or crazy people, never want to be anyone's victim, that's for sure.  I'd never want to live in a country that stripped me of all means to protect myself, would have stayed in the womb.  http://www.udap.com/mm5/product/6MF


----------



## Bee (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> *raises hand*
> 
> Question: is there anything you CAN do in the UK?
> 
> I never knew you folks were so restrictive on so many levels. I used to hold the UK in high favor - now, not so much.



Aaawww come on Phil it is not that bad in the U.K., each country  has their laws whether we agree with them not or not, it is just a case of accepting what one country can do and another cannot.

Regarding pepper spray being illegal in the U.K., there is another spray that is perfectly legal to own, carry and use, it is called *  Farb Gel Criminal Deterrent Spray, if you look at the video in the link, you will see it can be very effective and the spray stays on the attacker for up to 7 days, giving the police time to identify them.


*​http://www.selfdefenceweaponsuk.co.uk/legal-pepper-spray-uk


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Bee, I'm sorry but as a self-defense instructor with a lot of street experience I'm going to say that that spray is less than useless.

The man in the video is acting like his feet are nailed to the ground. If I were the bad guy and someone started spraying me with what is essentially a can of paint, I would cover my eyes and charge them. You could throw a handkerchief at their face, for all the effectiveness this product provides.

I am actually quite stunned that this company makes claims that this product is effective as a self-defense tool.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Jan 30, 2016)

The idea of using any of these self-defense "weapons" is the element of surprise.  Women back in the day would take a little can of hair spray out of their purse to deter a man who was getting a bit too "frisky".  Depending on the situation, after I used my type of pepper spray, I'd follow it up with some other moves that would further hinder the attacker.  In another situation, I might run away, all relies on the specific scenario, hard to say what one would do until it happens.  In all my days, I've walked the city streets and traveled at night in subways and never had an incident of physical attack.  If I ever do in my old age, I would hope I'd be prepared.  Not worried about in-home attacks, my 'equalizer' will stop anyone dead in their tracks.


----------



## SifuPhil (Jan 30, 2016)

Another problem is that people often carry these pepper sprays in their cute little holster or buried in their purse while they're walking alone.

The time it takes to draw them out is far too long. It also would be useless if the element of surprise is in the bad guy's favor, such as his jumping out from behind a tree or from behind a parked car. 

The best weapon is your mind.


----------



## Bee (Jan 30, 2016)

'element of surprise' are the three key words SeaBreeze, plus if an attacker is sprayed with whatever no one can predict how the attacker will react.

I don't feel the need to carry anything where I live and never have done.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> Another problem is that people often carry these pepper sprays in their cute little holster or buried in their purse while they're walking alone.
> The time it takes to draw them out is far too long. It also would be useless if the element of surprise is in the bad guy's favor, such as his jumping out from behind a tree or from behind a parked car.
> The best weapon is your mind.



I agree Phil.  I never carry a purse, or have ever used any holders.  As I said I mostly use my pepper spray in wooded areas, and keep in in my pant pocket, easy to grab as my keys.  But you're right, the best weapon is your mind.  I will never give up my life without a fight, regardless of weapons used, and if needed, I may use psychology and try to outwit the attacker in certain situations, like forced rape, etc.



Bee said:


> 'element of surprise' are the three key words SeaBreeze, plus if an attacker is sprayed with whatever no one can predict how the attacker will react.
> I don't feel the need to carry anything where I live and never have done.



I agree Bee. I still don't feel the need to carry anything for every day life.  If there were situations popping up though in the United States with radical extremist attacks by terrorists from other countries, then I would likely go out and get myself a concealed carry permit and just have a gun on my person.  Hopefully that will never happen, but I don't like what I see regarding the attacks, especially on women, in countries who have been kind enough to open their doors to innocent refugees, and radicals took advantage of the easy entrance.


----------



## Bee (Jan 30, 2016)

If I am honest, I don't worry about radicals coming into the country because we already have some.............bred and born.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 30, 2016)

Bee said:


> 'element of surprise' are the three key words SeaBreeze, plus if an attacker is sprayed with whatever no one can predict how the attacker will react.
> 
> I don't feel the need to carry anything where I live and never have done.



Me neither. I use common  sense as my principal safeguard.


----------



## Susie (Jan 30, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> I don't know what self-defense law ais where the girl lives -- she's not in the US.Wherever it is, pepper spray shouldn't be illegal, IMO.  How's a woman supposed to defend herself??  OR is she just expected to submit?  Shameful.


The unspoken law: A woman should stay home, watch the children, clean the house, cook the meals, and if working, take every precaution to avoid attack by thugs.
Women should never go out alone at night, remain within tightly locked premises.
Men (only thugs???) have the unwritten right to do as they please and get away with it???  :why:


----------



## Karen99 (Jan 30, 2016)

Susie said:


> The unspoken law: A woman should stay home, watch the children, clean the house, cook the meals, and if working, take every precaution to avoid attack by thugs.
> Women should never go out alone at night, remain within tightly locked premises.
> Men (only thugs???) have the unwritten right to do as they please and get away with it???  :why:



:holymoly:Susie that stereotype is what kept women down.  It's scary, huh?  It wasn't all that long ago we couldn't own property or vote.


----------



## Don M. (Jan 30, 2016)

SifuPhil said:


> As has been mentioned in other threads the problem with guns here has been greatly misrepresented by the media. Our gun crime rate is actually falling, but the statistics are manipulated to make it appear that people are running berserk in the streets shooting each other.



I sometimes wonder if the upper management in some of our media, and some of our politicians, don't own a lot of stock in the gun manufacturing companies.  Every time a bad shooting occurs, and the media goes overboard with days of coverage of the incident, and the politicians start yakking about Gun Control, gun sales go thru the roof.  The price of S&W stock, for example, has doubled in the past year...while the bulk of Wall Street has been marking time, and even falling.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 30, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> :holymoly:Susie that stereotype is what kept women down.  It's scary, huh?  It wasn't all that long ago we couldn't own property or vote.



Women don't have to be kept down. In the 1980s I was studying at uni as a part time student which involved some distance education and some evening lectures. For some of that time there was a rapist preying on young women after dark. 

We women simply banded together in the face of this real threat. No-one walked to her car in the car park alone at night. Several of us would go together to the nearest car and then the others would be driven to their cars. This IMO is much more sensible than walking alone and relying on being able to deploy pepper spray or a hand gun if someone jumps out of the bushed behind you and overpowers you. Women don't need the protection of a man to be safe. We can protect each other.

United we stand, divided we get picked off isn't an empty slogan when it comes to self protection.


----------



## Karen99 (Jan 30, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> Women don't have to be kept down. In the 1980s I was studying at uni as a part time student which involved some distance education and some evening lectures. For some of that time there was a rapist preying on young women after dark.
> 
> We women simply banded together in the face of this real threat. No-one walked to her car in the car park alone at night. Several of us would go together to the nearest car and then the others would be driven to their cars. This IMO is much more sensible than walking alone and relying on being able to deploy pepper spray or a hand gun if someone jumps out of the bushed behind you and overpowers you. Women don't need the protection of a man to be safe. We can protect each other.
> 
> United we stand, divided we get picked off isn't an empty slogan when it comes to self protection.



i took a self defense class in my 20's and only had to put it to good use once.  The safety in numbers thing is also good.  I stay keenly aware of my surroundings and never lived in fear.  I never carried a gun but I do have an awesome switchblade.  My husband worked graveyard shift (midnight til 8 in the morning) for 10 years..and I kept that with me.


----------



## imp (Jan 30, 2016)

Bluecheese50 said:


> Well don't bring it to the UK, you could be arrested for just carrying pepper spray, let alone using it.



Amazing, Ma'am! How many tens of thousands, or perhaps millions, of tables do you suppose exist in UK upon which food is served? Each will have a "pepper sprayer", of sorts, lying about amongst the condiments. Or, has the government in it's unending zealous provision of emphasized "Public Safety" now outlawed pepper shakers?   imp


----------



## imp (Jan 30, 2016)

Karen99 said:


> i took a self defense class in my 20's and only had to put it to good use once.  The safety in numbers thing is also good.  I stay keenly aware of my surroundings and never lived in fear.  I never carried a gun but I do have an awesome switchblade.  My husband worked graveyard shift (midnight til 8 in the morning) for 10 years..and I kept that with me.



A knife is surely better than nothing. However, possession without "user smarts" is dangerous, as you no doubt well know.   imp


----------

