# Natural immunity in America



## chic (Nov 30, 2021)

If an estimated 100 million Americans have natural immunity to covid from having caught and recovered from the disease, why aren't they equal to someone with vaccine immunity? I simply don't understand this. Immunity is immunity. Isn't it? If our govt. treated natural immunity as immunity, it might stop some of the difficulties we are experiencing now.


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## Don M. (Nov 30, 2021)

100 million Americans have caught and recovered from Covid???   What is the "source" for data that says that 1 in every 3 people in the nation have contracted this virus????


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## chic (Nov 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> 100 million Americans have caught and recovered from Covid???   What is the "source" for data that says that 1 in every 3 people in the nation have contracted this virus????


Senator Dr. Paul when presenting arguments for the recognition of covid natural immunity mentioned that number, but the number is not as relevant as the question : shouldn't someone who has recovered from covid and has natural immunities to the disease, be on a par with someone who is fully vaccinated? This is what's important. Natural immunity is recognized as immunity in some European countries. In the U.S. only vaccine immunity is accepted. This isn't going to get us where we need to go and want to go. So what's the problem with the U.S.?


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## win231 (Nov 30, 2021)

chic said:


> Senator Dr. Paul when presenting arguments for the recognition of covid natural immunity mentioned that number, but the number is not as relevant as the question : shouldn't someone who has recovered from covid and has natural immunities to the disease, be on a par with someone who is fully vaccinated? This is what's important. Natural immunity is recognized as immunity in some European countries. In the U.S. only vaccine immunity is accepted. This isn't going to get us where we need to go and want to go. So what's the problem with the U.S.?


There is no profit in natural immunity.  There is big profit in vaccines, endless boosters & new "miracle" Covid drugs.


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## chic (Dec 1, 2021)

win231 said:


> There is no profit in natural immunity.  There is big profit in vaccines, endless boosters & new "miracle" Covid drugs.


I'm beginning to draw that conclusion myself since no one values natural immunity anymore. What else is there to think except to believe it's about money and not about health, because if it were truly about health the natural immunity from recovered covid patients would count as immunity.


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## Michael Z (Dec 4, 2021)

Meanwhile, it is now reported that the Omicron variant is in Australia.  But Australia requires vaccination for all people entering the country.


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## helenbacque (Dec 4, 2021)

How can 'natural immunity' be proven with any accuracy?


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## chic (Dec 4, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> How can 'natural immunity' be proven with any accuracy?


An antibodies test for those who have caught and recovered from covid would be an indication. To recover without a vaccine is natural. It's accepted as immunity in Europe. But in the U. S. where only vaccine immunity counts as immunity and with all the breakthrough cases, we know how helpful that is.


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## Sunny (Dec 4, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> How can 'natural immunity' be proven with any accuracy?


I agree, Helen. You can't prove a negative.

I have never gotten leprosy. Does that prove I have a natural immunity to it?


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## Don M. (Dec 4, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> How can 'natural immunity' be proven with any accuracy?



Well, we could have everyone line up and give a blood sample, or whatever is deemed necessary to prove "immunity".  And then, every time a new variant appeared, we could all line up again.


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## HoneyNut (Dec 4, 2021)

chic said:


> having caught and recovered from the disease, why aren't they equal to someone with vaccine immunity?


One silver lining to the pandemic is to start wondering and learning about the science of immunity.  Science is so cool.
I don't know the answer but I was watching one YouTube that was saying natural immunity is superior in the nasal immune response and the vaccine immunity was superior for general body systems response.  It was interesting to think about.  Maybe the covid vaccine has more of the serious problematic parts of the virus.  My imagination compares it to Rabies.  People can develop immunity to Rabies by vaccination, but natural immunity to Rabies doesn't work because Rabies kills too quickly for that part of the immune system to marshall the necessary response.
There was an article yesterday about South Africa that said there is a great deal of naturally acquired immunity in SA and then Omicron has caused an uptick in cases and that some people have gotten sick from Covid again a second and even third time.  It is quite horrifying but I'm hoping that it will turn out that Omicron may not cause as severe as illness, at least in the vaccinated population it sounds like omicron is mostly mild so far (but might just be that it is younger people so far that have caught it).


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## win231 (Dec 4, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I agree, Helen. You can't prove a negative.
> 
> I have never gotten leprosy. Does that prove I have a natural immunity to it?


I found this:  Looks like we're safe......     

Are most humans immune to leprosy?
_"It is estimated that more than 95% of people who are infected with Mycobacterium leprae do not develop leprosy because *their immune system fights off the infection*."
"Overall, the risk of getting Hansen's disease for any adult around the world is very low. That's because *more than 95% of all people have natural immunity to the disease*. In the southern United States"_


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## IrisSenior (Dec 4, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Well, we could have everyone line up and give a blood sample, or whatever is deemed necessary to prove "immunity".  And then, every time a new variant appeared, we could all line up again.


Exactly...natural immunity to THAT variant that you caught and recovered from but there are so many variants (or will be - you watch) that a vaccine would be the best choice to have. Please correct me if I am wrong...


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## Murrmurr (Dec 4, 2021)

Sunny said:


> I agree, Helen. You can't prove a negative.
> 
> I have never gotten leprosy. Does that prove I have a natural immunity to it?


It's extremely likely that you're not.

And you prove a negative (and positive) with a blood test.


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## Murrmurr (Dec 4, 2021)

IrisSenior said:


> Exactly...natural immunity to THAT variant that you caught and recovered from but there are so many variants (or will be - you watch) that a vaccine would be the best choice to have. Please correct me if I am wrong...


The vaccine would also have to be for THAT variant, though.


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## John cycling (Dec 4, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> How can 'natural immunity' be proven with any accuracy?


Just ask the person.  Are you healthy or sick, and leave it at that.
I have never in all of my life been sick from a virus, which is proof enough for me.
Likewise, I have zero trust in any drugs, shots, nor any bogus tests <-- that supposedly test for viruses.
All of the excessive deaths I've observed over the last two years have been caused by people getting medical treatments.


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## Devi (Dec 4, 2021)

My understanding is that when the body acquires natural immunity (from having encountered a pathogen — that is, a bacterium, virus, or other microorganism that can cause disease), it fights it off and continues to block those pathogens _as well as_ similar pathogens. That is, the body _learns _and continues to block effects of new and similar pathogens.

The vaccines are apparently only aimed at one virus at a time, rather than broad-shooting. So you get sort of what may be an endless chain of vaccinations against virus "variants".

And, in order for the vaccine(s) not to be killed off by the body's innate immune system, the immune system has to be sort of shut down so that it doesn't kill off the vaccine/virus. Personally not interested in shutting down my immune system.

Anyway, that's my understanding. I'm not going to argue this or insist that anyone believe it.

Lastly, my husband and I have had both Covid-19 and the flu, and can say they're _not_ the same.


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## AnnieA (Dec 4, 2021)

chic said:


> If an estimated 100 million Americans have natural immunity to covid from having caught and recovered from the disease, why aren't they equal to someone with vaccine immunity? I simply don't understand this. Immunity is immunity. Isn't it? If our govt. treated natural immunity as immunity, it might stop some of the difficulties we are experiencing now.



Some other first world countries are acknowledging naturally acquired immunity.  It's how viral pandemics ran their courses throughout human history.  The US, of course,  has to make it political.

There's at least one recent study in the past few months--a Scandinavian country I think-- in which researchers found that natural immunity (beyond initial antibodies) in recovered individuals has grown stronger and more broad since their infection encompassing more than just the spike protein targeted by vaccines.

Am on my phone now ...will post the study when I get back to my computer.


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## Devi (Dec 4, 2021)

Hi @AnnieA. That goes along with what I was saying.


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## Shero (Dec 4, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Some other first world countries are acknowledging naturally acquired immunity.  It's how viral pandemics ran their courses throughout human history.  The US, of course,  has to make it political.
> 
> There's at least one recent study in the past few months--a Scandinavian country I think-- in which researchers found that natural immunity (beyond initial antibodies) in recovered individuals has grown stronger and more broad since their infection encompassing more than just the spike protein targeted by vaccines.
> 
> Am on my phone now ...will post the study when I get back to my computer.



Funny that, natural immunity is not workng in South Africa where the omicron strain is running like wild fire!


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## Becky1951 (Dec 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> Funny that, natural immunity is not workng in South Africa where the omicron strain is running like wild fire!


Maybe it is working, there have been no deaths from omicron. Not vaccinated or unvaccinated.


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## AnnieA (Dec 4, 2021)

Shero said:


> Funny that, natural immunity is not workng in South Africa where the omicron strain is running like wild fire!



Naive (not previously infected) fully vaccinated, unvaccinated convalescents and those without either type immunity alike are getting the Omnicron variant more quickly than other variants.  If it does prove to be mild, the increased transmissibliy is a good thing.  Being neither animal nor plant, it's to a virus' advantage to be able to spread quickly without killing its hosts.  If so, we'll move from pandemic to endemic which is characteristic of most of the coronavirus family.


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## AnnieA (Dec 4, 2021)

Study referenced in #18 

Study link: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7

In addition to the summary below, the researchers found that in those not previously infected, "mRNA vaccines produces high levels of plasma neutralizing activity"  but these wane requiring boosters.   

More and more it seems that the Israelis got it right ...the best protected are convalescents who get a mRNA vaccine following infection.  So far it seems that one dose is sufficient, but that may change as more is learned about SARS-CoV-2 overall and especially as Omnicron variant research studies are published.

Summary from the Rockefeller University website:

Nussenzweig and colleagues resolved to tease out any differences in memory B cell evolution by comparing blood samples from convalescent COVID-19 patients to those from mRNA-vaccinated individuals who had never suffered natural infection.​​Vaccination and natural infection elicited similar numbers of memory B cells. Memory B cells rapidly evolved between the first and second dose of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, producing increasingly potent memory antibodies. But after two months, progress stalled. The memory B cells were present in large numbers and expressed potent antibodies, but the antibodies were not getting any stronger. Also, although some of these antibodies were able to neutralize Delta and other variants, there was no overall improvement in breadth.​​With convalescent patients, on the other hand, memory B cells continued to evolve and improve up to one year after infection. More potent and more broadly neutralizing memory antibodies were coming out with every memory B cell update.​​There are several potential reasons that memory B cells produced by natural infection might be expected to outperform those produced by mRNA vaccines, the researchers say.​​It is possible that the body responds differently to viruses that enter through the respiratory tract than those that are injected into our upper arms. Or perhaps an intact virus goads the immune system in a way that the lone spike protein represented by the vaccines simply cannot. Then again, maybe it’s that the virus persists in the naturally infected for weeks, giving the body more time to mount a robust response. The vaccine, on the other hand, is flushed out of the body mere days after triggering the desired immune response.​


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## helenbacque (Dec 5, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Just ask the person.  Are you healthy or sick, and leave it at that.
> I have never in all of my life been sick from a virus, which is proof enough for me.
> Likewise, I have zero trust in any drugs, shots, nor any bogus tests <-- that supposedly test for viruses.
> All of the excessive deaths I've observed over the last two years have been caused by people getting medical treatments.


It is virtually impossible to prove a negative.


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## win231 (Dec 5, 2021)

Shero said:


> Funny that, natural immunity is not workng in South Africa where the omicron strain is running like wild fire!


Orders are already coming into America for refrigerated meat trucks.


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## Alice November (Dec 5, 2021)

Right now there are mandates being put into place in some eu countries for traveling/crossing borders by air, train, car, etc. france and germany for example, where people must get an antibody test proving either natural immunity from having had Cov19 disease and rcovered, or prove through testing they have antibodies showing enough immunty from having been vaxed. The test is mandatory even for vaxed people to be able to cross borders. I think it is a blood test.

So it is causing  a lot of problems for travelers who made arrangements prviously thinking that because they were Vaxed travel would be ok. I think neighbors have driven to the boarder twice in the past week, getting turned back returning home then packing and unpacking and making a lot of desperate phone calls to no avail.

Other countries are asking people for a Covid negative test within24 hours to be allowed into the country, for example Portugal. UK asks everyone to completely isolate for 14 days upon arrival at aCovid Hotel upon arrival into the country.

These mandates can change within hours, so traveling has become a complete nighmare.

Soon it won't be necessary to do a lockdown since the health passport eu citizens sre supposed to carry are becoming invalid in some places with the new Omicron suspected of being vax evasive. So there won't be anything but essential businesses open anyway and nowhere to go for anyone.

Everybody is still waiting for proof, but as we can see many countries are quick to try to protect it from spreading..


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