# Japan's Prime Minister Say's No More World War II Apologies



## WhatInThe (Aug 14, 2015)

Japan's Prime Minister says no more World War II apologies. I agree. How long should the ancestors have to apologize for something they did not do or had no control over. Maybe a 90 year old ex general who actually made decisions during the war but why should the kids, grandchildren or great grandchildren have to apologize for their elder's deeds. That being said apparently Japan doesn't like to teach World War II including Japan's colonialism or 'expansion' by military means. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/08/14/japanese-pm-no-more-wwii-apologies.html


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## Debby (Aug 14, 2015)

How many countries actually do teach school kids about their historical 'bad acts'?  

I just looked it up and Germany does teach their kids about Hitler and the Holocaust so they're up a point in my opinion.  

But according to the following link, the USA doesn't teach much of what really happened regarding the Vietnam war.  http://zinnedproject.org/2013/06/camouflaging-the-vietnam-war/
and Canada has kept it secret how we were involved in the kidnap and exile of a popular President of Haiti  http://www2.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti-archive-new/msg22292.html

As there are a number of Brits here, the question to you would be, do you recall your education including Britains 'capture' and treatment of India (or any of the other countries that it took over in that era of imperialism) and to the Americans, do you recall hearing about the why's and wherefores of Vietnam or Cambodia and what do the latest generation get taught about Iraq.  

Seems like if we're all pretty silent on the various subjects that I've mentioned here, we can't exactly be pointing at the Japanese for their educational 'failings'.


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## Ameriscot (Aug 14, 2015)

Debby said:


> How many countries actually do teach school kids about their historical 'bad acts'?
> 
> I just looked it up and Germany does teach their kids about Hitler and the Holocaust so they're up a point in my opinion.
> 
> ...




All very true.  I'm sure some learn about their countries failings, but I'm sure a lot is hidden.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 14, 2015)

Debby said:


> How many countries actually do teach school kids about their historical 'bad acts'?
> 
> I just looked it up and Germany does teach their kids about Hitler and the Holocaust so they're up a point in my opinion.
> 
> ...



The Japanese barely touch on and basically try to omit or skip over World War II. It goes beyond secrets, propaganda or bias texts. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068

Most of the crap or true stories has played out in America in the form of news, books, commentary, documentaries for decades. The Pentagon Papers are old news. Anyone who actually read or followed any detailed history of Vietnam knew that the south had propped governments going back years. The Soviets did the same things all part of the proxy battles fought in the Cold War. It does take time in a lot of cases for the truth to come out and put in it's proper context. But it's 70 years after World War II and Japan has plenty of time to figure out how and what to teach about World War II. 

Actual soldiers & survivors of Imperial Japan's aggression should be the only ones expecting apologies, not the descendants. But I also want the descendants not to repeat history they should be learning from. If nothing else history is what not to do and/or the consequences & disdain from the rest of the world. There's a reason Japan could not build or use their military for half a century and the Japanese people should know exactly why.

Many want the US to be the world's policeman yet they complain about the way someone else's mess was cleaned up even if with covert ops.


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## Shalimar (Aug 14, 2015)

The Turks still have not apologised for the Armenian genocide which occurred about a hundred years ago. Governments are not fond of being accountable for their crimes. How accountable have the Canadian and American gov'ts ever been re our treatment of the indigenous peoples?


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## Shalimar (Aug 14, 2015)

WhatInThe, I hear you, but, with respect, not all of us expect/want America to police the world. So far, it has not worked out very well for a number of reasons.


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## Debby (Aug 15, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> The Japanese barely touch on and basically try to omit or skip over World War II. It goes beyond secrets, propaganda or bias texts.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068
> 
> ...




But have any of your presidents actually made an official apology to any of the countries that America has invaded?  Movies or documentaries don't count as they are by individual citizens and they don't move future public decisions as governments and lobbyists and the corporate sponsors of war do.  Big difference.  

On an individual basis and social basis, humans will always look to the 'big guy/head guy/rich guy' for HELP in times of trouble.  What the world doesn't want is that same big guy taking over and dictating how their society,economy will run.  The continual justification of invasions and abuses will never result in world peace and isn't that what we all want?

I think you meant 'you want descendants to learn from history'?  Well, what has America learned from history?  You memorialize and justify  a bomb that was brutal on children and women and far too many of you evidence zero empathy for those civilians who still to this day suffer in some instances.  And your government removes the law that prevented them from using a nuke as a 'first strike'.  What did America learn from Afghanistan or better yet, Iraq?  And yet, were quick to want to attack Syria who are fighting against al Qaeda and el Nusra terrorists, even while funding the same al Qaeda there that are blamed for 9/11, and which took America to Afghanistan to kill thousands.  Only to have segments of them morph into ISIS, which your Pentagon was fully aware of by the way.  And now finally, America is actually bombing in Syria which they wanted to do all along.   What was learned?

The fact that Japan is seeking to change their constitution to allow them to fight outside their country once again, is a terrible thing which is probably the result of the stupid, mindless rumbling going on between them and China!!!  Again with witless power struggles!  Apparently that government hasn't learned anything, they just took a holiday from the insanity.

I'm only talking in terms here of what America has or hasn't done because you brought it up some of these questions, but the same thoughts could be levelled at almost every government in the world to some degree.  We think ourselves so civilized and so developed and yet by and large, our societies are as willing to attack and maim and kill anyone who get's in the way of government agenda's in the same way as back in medieval and even more primitive times.  And the officials spew government propaganda and our young men and women rush to involvement and our families mumble platitudes about 'praying for them'.  There seems to be a total failure of the ability to work together:  it's always 'might makes right'!

You're right, apologies mean nothing if they aren't backed up by a change of heart and attitude and actions.  The question is, will there be a world left to choose peace when society is ready for it?  Interesting question wouldn't you say?


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## Debby (Aug 15, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> The Turks still have not apologised for the Armenian genocide which occurred about a hundred years ago. Governments are not fond of being accountable for their crimes. How accountable have the Canadian and American gov'ts ever been re our treatment of the indigenous peoples?




Exactly!  We've had a couple 'apologies ' from our gov't to the First Nations people but their education is still underfunded by a third what provincial schools get which dooms a whole group to mediocrity and failure. The word 'soft genocide' has been applied to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the above is the same in principal.  No 'guns' needed per se, but a way to drive to extinction an entire group.  And it's not right.

Words backed up back a change of heart and actions is what we need.


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## Underock1 (Aug 15, 2015)

I came on the forum a minute ago intending to start a thread about what the joy is in humiliating people. There are so many reality shows where the "entertainment" value is based on watching people being criticized, and humiliated. Its the same thing with nations. Yes. This or that country did bad things. None are guilt free. Why can't we just put it in the history books as something that happened _at that time_? What is accomplished by insisting that apologies be made annually, decades, or even centuries later. What's the joy? It undoes nothing, and simply reminds people of who they are supposed to hate. The Chinese and Koreans are currently upset, with more legitimacy than most, that the Japanese have not properly apologized for atrocities committed 78 years ago. Why not ask Mongolia to apologize for Genghis Kan? Its absurd that current generations have to grovel for events that they had absolutely nothing to do with. Lets put it to bed already.


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## Debby (Aug 15, 2015)

Do you dislike those shows too Underock1?  I don't watch them myself.  I always imagine how lousy I'd feel if I was the victim of a prank or set up for some sort of humiliation....and I just can't watch it happen to other people.  I think that's the same philosophy that colours my gravitation towards the people I view as 'victims' in all kinds of situations.  The yardstick is:  how would I feel in exactly their situation?  Easy to decide then.

Hey folks, I just want to take a minute to apologize if I'm coming across as overbearing on these kinds of subjects.  I'll try to be a little more easy going (although I can't promise , but I will try). I guess I do get a little 'het up' at times.  But all for a good cause!  World Peace!  What can be better than that?


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## WhatInThe (Aug 15, 2015)

Debby said:


> But have any of your presidents actually made an official apology to any of the countries that America has invaded?  Movies or documentaries don't count as they are by individual citizens and they don't move future public decisions as governments and lobbyists and the corporate sponsors of war do.  Big difference.
> 
> On an individual basis and social basis, humans will always look to the 'big guy/head guy/rich guy' for HELP in times of trouble.  What the world doesn't want is that same big guy taking over and dictating how their society,economy will run.  The continual justification of invasions and abuses will never result in world peace and isn't that what we all want?
> 
> ...



What's in or not in the texts in Japan is part of the Japanese culture which is greatly influenced by their government. No one is saying Japan should continuously apologize especially if they were not even born or involved during those periods of conflict. Acknowledging history is different than apologizing for it. The US has acknowledged plenty if not apologized. Acknowledgement is just as critical because it becomes part of  history to study from. The lack of World War II history being taught in Japan is more troubling at this point than apologizing for it. An imperialist/colonialist or expansionist warrior culture ruled Japan through World War II. By acknowledging history those facts can be taken into consideration on future decisions. They should know expansionist policies really won't end well. 

Japan being able to fight outside it's country isn't the issue. Perhaps if World War II was more emphasized perhaps their leaders wouldn't have been so quick to allow it although I still think there is great reservation.

My bad, I did put ancestors instead of descendants(will correct) but put in context in that time the events/bomb decision basically plays out the same. It's an after thought to analyze events and decisions with a lot of information the actual participants did not have much like the way sport commentators say how the player should've done this or that. The problems with history class in Japan is that the descendants don't have the information for future decisions & comparisons. They're like a sports commentator trying to analyze a play that they never saw.

Analyzing history can turn into analyzing the paradoxes of time travel with all the what ifs, what abouts, could'ves, should'ves etc and turns into a loop or cycle of the same old stuff.


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## BobF (Aug 15, 2015)

I am glad that the natives of US and Canada both came into the conversation.    I have studied both situations a bit, not completely, so I can not stand in a fight.   But I do consider both groups to have been poorly treated for so many years.   And are now getting to have much more in rights and powers as they should have.

In the US they have had some real advantages allowed to them.   They have the ability to create their own nations such as Navajo, the largest.   There are others smaller and capable of running businesses and doing well, Utes being among them.   In the US they do have the ability to live on reservations or in towns and cities of their choice.   We have had many natives that were able to represent the US in our US Congress.   No problems with that happening that I remember.

In Canada I have seen natives sitting in their governments, at least Province governments, not sure about the national government, but the natives are quite able to do so.


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## Debby (Aug 16, 2015)

Yes, we've had about 50 FN people in all levels of government but that doesn't alter the fact that FN people have gotten the short end of the stick most of the time.  Heck, we only quit taking away their kids and sticking them in white run Residential Schools in the 90's.  And like I said, we don't even give their kids the same chance educationally speaking, that the provincial schools give every other kid.  Although I do think that more and more Canadians are waking up to the unfairness of that and aren't so happy to see it continue.

If Japan isn't teaching their children about the facts of their own behaviour in the lead up to the war in the Pacific, then you're right WIT, that should change if there is a desire for a peaceful world.  But are you sure that American kids are getting the facts on all of America's conflicts?  I'd be willing to bet Canadian kids aren't getting the facts on any of our bad acts.  The general public didn't hear about Canada's involvement in Haiti when Aristede was kidnapped and exiled, why would it be taught to our kids that we did what we did.

And so far I don't think Japan has amended their constitution to once again allow them to fight outside Japan.  It's under very strong consideration though but the reservation seems to be more on the part of citizens.  As usual, the government chooses to 'rush to violence' or at least have that option open to themselves.  You have to wonder, what's the pressure to do that?

The learning has to happen on all sides, not just the Japanese.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Debby, I concur.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Debby, our history, and American history also, present a skewed view of the genocidal acts carried out with impunity by whites for eons against the first peoples of our two nations. Veracity usually belongs to the victors. Perhaps we should shovel out our own barns, before objecting to  the  smell of other's?


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

Debby said:


> Do you dislike those shows too Underock1?  I don't watch them myself.  I always imagine how lousy I'd feel if I was the victim of a prank or set up for some sort of humiliation....and I just can't watch it happen to other people.  I think that's the same philosophy that colours my gravitation towards the people I view as 'victims' in all kinds of situations.  The yardstick is:  how would I feel in exactly their situation?  Easy to decide then.
> 
> Hey folks, I just want to take a minute to apologize if I'm coming across as overbearing on these kinds of subjects.  I'll try to be a little more easy going (although I can't promise , but I will try). I guess I do get a little 'het up' at times.  But all for a good cause!  World Peace!  What can be better than that?



Nothing, Debby. I agree with you on some things and not on others, but I'm with anyone who has their eye on the prize.


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## Shalimar (Aug 16, 2015)

Debby, Underock, I do not like humiliating shows either. So cruel. Debby, nothing wrong with being passionate about what you believe, far better than complaisant. Underock, we joust on occasion, keeps us sharp, and honest, I may question your opinions but never your integrity.


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## tnthomas (Aug 16, 2015)

Apologies, some people expect them~demand them, then don't 'accept' the apology when it's tendered.    One sincere apology is all that is required.

A whole bunch of "formal" apologies mean nothing.

Whether it be an interpersonal or an international matter- one apology is enough.    Then, move on.


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Debby, Underock, I do not like humiliating shows either. So cruel. Debby, nothing wrong with being passionate about what you believe, far better than complaisant. Underock, we joust on occasion, keeps us sharp, and honest, I may question your opinions but never your integrity.



Thank you Shali. I appreciate that and return the complement. You still smell good! :laugh:


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## Underock1 (Aug 16, 2015)

tnthomas said:


> Apologies, some people expect them~demand them, then don't 'accept' the apology when it's tendered.    One sincere apology is all that is required.
> 
> A whole bunch of "formal" apologies mean nothing.
> 
> Whether it be an interpersonal or an international matter- one apology is enough.    Then, move on.



Absolutely. I am a history buff, but I am beginning to rethink that old saw about those who forget history being destined to repeat it. It seems to me that there's an awful lot of repeating done because some take pride in *not* forgetting it.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> Thank you Shali. I appreciate that and return the complement. You still smell good! :laugh:




You flirt you...


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## AZ Jim (Aug 16, 2015)

I understand Japans reluctance to apologize for their behavior during WW2.  I hope they understand my feeling that my country owes NO apologies for any action we took.


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

Too true Shalimar.  And that's why I think it's important to always be open to talking about all of these things and searching out information.  Changes don't happen in 'a dark place of not knowing', but with light and information there's hope.  Thank goodness for the Internet!  So much access to a world of information you know.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 17, 2015)

The military units in Japan that refused to surrender or obey stand down orders after the surrender announcement should still be apologizing. The 302nd Air Group out of Atsugi and Yokosuka fired on US planes sent to fly over Japan to see if the cease fire was being enforced/obeyed. The last killed in action in World War II for the US actually occurred after the surrender announcement.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...end-of-world-war-ii-almost-didn-t-happen.html

All other units obeyed the cease fire but not these poop heads. I hope they got tried for war crimes and I would be open to the direct survivors of the wounded or killed suing Japan.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 17, 2015)

The last Japanese soldier surrendered in 1974.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/world/asia/japan-philippines-ww2-soldier-dies/


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## WhatInThe (Aug 17, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> The last Japanese soldier surrendered in 1974.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/world/asia/japan-philippines-ww2-soldier-dies/



And that's not just military training or brain washing someone needs to be around the culture their entire life for that type of persistence.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Persistence = Gurkha.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

To the victors go the spoils, and the rights of historical revision. Perhaps the First Peoples should sue Canada and America for our war crimes/genocidal tactics repeatedly enacted against them even after they surrendered. Oops, not generally included in the children's history books?  Hmmm.


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## Cookie (Aug 17, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Read the site above containing a long list of apologies extended by Japan, starting shortly after WWII.  I would imagine this should suffice. Has the US apologized to Japan for the A-bombs I wonder? It states that the emperor tried to apologize to MacArthur but was rebuffed.


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

Great link Cookie!  I think you've put to bed any concern that anyone might have about Japan's failure to apologize.  In fact, my reading of the link says that they've apologized multiple times to everyone involved.  Who's next to offer an apology?  Anyone else ready?


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> To the victors go the spoils, and the rights of historical revision. Perhaps the First Peoples should sue Canada and America for our war crimes/genocidal tactics repeatedly enacted against them even after they surrendered. Oops, not generally included in the children's history books?  Hmmm.




Such a witty woman Shalimar!  Tongue obviously firmly planted in your cheek there!


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## Debby (Aug 17, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> The military units in Japan that refused to surrender or obey stand down orders after the surrender announcement should still be apologizing. The 302nd Air Group out of Atsugi and Yokosuka fired on US planes sent to fly over Japan to see if the cease fire was being enforced/obeyed. The last killed in action in World War II for the US actually occurred after the surrender announcement.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...end-of-world-war-ii-almost-didn-t-happen.html
> 
> All other units obeyed the cease fire but not these poop heads. I hope they got tried for war crimes and I would be open to the direct survivors of the wounded or killed suing Japan.




How would you feel about the thousands of Iraqi's and Afghani's and Pakistani's who were innocent but killed anyway because they were there, suing you guys?  And what about Palestinians who were killed by weapons that the US gave Israel?  If it's good for the goose, is it good for the gander?  

Time for the taxpayers to get their wallets out because the military industrial complex sure isn't going to let their bottom lines suffer as a result of the deaths that their weapons caused and that their lobbyists encouraged your government to use in the conflicts that have been ongoing for the last 25+ years.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Militaristic countries with huge armies and their wannabe lackeys will always find specious reasons for maintaining the status quo, while avoiding examining their own hegemonic reality. So it has always been, pitiful that as sentient beings we are still prisoners of our primitive past. Testosterone rule has proven disastrous so far, perhaps it is time to consider something else?


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## WhatInThe (Aug 17, 2015)

Debby said:


> How would you feel about the thousands of Iraqi's and Afghani's and Pakistani's who were innocent but killed anyway because they were there, suing you guys?  And what about Palestinians who were killed by weapons that the US gave Israel?  If it's good for the goose, is it good for the gander?
> 
> Time for the taxpayers to get their wallets out because the military industrial complex sure isn't going to let their bottom lines suffer as a result of the deaths that their weapons caused and that their lobbyists encouraged your government to use in the conflicts that have been ongoing for the last 25+ years.


 
In reply to the off subject hypothetical what if what about question. If they want to sue let them sue, how far they'll get is another question. 

The referenced story about the rogue Japanese military units at the end of World War II shows a clear cut well defined violation of international protocol and the ignoring the orders of their very own military leadership. And this from a Japanese warrior culture that was supposedly as much about honor as loyalty. This was a rogue unit. These weren't individuals it was at least one air and ground unit.

Units like this were exactly what the Allies were leery of during a full scale military invasion of Japan's main islands. These rogue units could've very easily motivated another atom bomb drop. Unconditional surrender means unconditional SURRENDER, no more fighting.


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## Shalimar (Aug 17, 2015)

Dig a little in almost every conflict and you will find rogue units. We in the West need to stop posturing our own dubious righteous perfection if we wish to be taken seriously in a global culture.


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