# Estate planning . . .



## Old Dummy (Feb 18, 2019)

Hi: I know there is no "silver bullet" answer to this -- or any other color bullet for that matter. The problem for me is: Who to lay the burden on of being health care proxy, power of attorney, and executor when you have no kids? (who would be the obvious first choice).

This has been churning away in my mind for years. I have talked about this with my doctor, two different estate attorneys, and every friend I have. I am currently supposed to be filling out all the papers that the second attorney sent me a few weeks ago, but I haven't touched them. I can think of a million things I'd rather do.

It's complicated. I have two older sisters and between them they have three kids who are all in their 40s and 50s. One niece stands out as the obvious choice but I really don't want to lay all this on her.

There are, apparently, fiduciaries who will do this. Does anyone here have any experience with them?

I have this obsession that this is a real burden to ask anyone to do, and I don't want to do that to my niece.  Some of my friends said it wouldn't necessarily feel like a burden to someone, and that my niece might be glad to do it. I've told my sister all this, she asked my niece -- who said she would. But she would say that anyway. I'm her only living uncle.

Comments?


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## Oldguy (Feb 18, 2019)

You really need to sit down with your niece and ask her...explain it all out and see what she says.

You can also put in your will/estate planning that the executor receives an extra percentage (in Florida it's 3%)


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## Butterfly (Feb 18, 2019)

I personally am very wary of those "fiduciaries" and trust management companies.  Here in my state several of them have been found to be mismanaging and skimming off their clients' accounts  and grossly padding their bills for services.  Particularly since you will be dead, who will oversee them to see they are doing what you want and not skimming??  I would not use one of those companies.  Every state is, of course, different, but here they have proved to be a fertile field for fraud and mismanagement.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 19, 2019)

If she said she would then she probably will.

Now it is up to you to make everything as easy as possible for her.

You can start by getting rid of anything that has no importance or value to you now and save her the trouble of sifting through it.

Prearrange/prepay your funeral. 

Gather all of your important information together in one spot, document the telephone numbers, account numbers, contacts, etc... Lay it all out and create a simple list/manual of what needs to be done, who needs to be contacted, etc... Then set up a time to go over it all with her and answer any questions that she may have.

IMO the burden comes from not being prepared so she is left to sift through a lifetime of _*stuff *_looking for car titles, deeds, insurance policies, investment records, etc...

You can ease the burden by taking care of most everything in advance so all she has to do is follow/execute your plan.

Good luck.


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## wvnewbie (Feb 19, 2019)

Sound advice!  Thank you!  



Aunt Bea said:


> If she said she would then she probably will.
> 
> Now it is up to you to make everything as easy as possible for her.
> 
> ...


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## Tommy (Feb 19, 2019)

I had this role for my late mother.  I'll say up front that it was no simple task.  I would, however, and without hesitation, do it again if necessary for any other family member.  It's just one of those things families do for one another (and it would be a valuable learning experience for your niece).  At the time, I lived over 1000 miles from my mother.  I was fortunate to have "boots on the ground" help from a sister who lived nearby and continual support from my loving wife (God bless her!).

Some reality:

If our kids are lucky, their last surviving parent will drop dead working out at the gym while discussing Greek philosophy with a friend, but it doesn't often work out that neatly.

I had to take over my mother's finances (with her permission) three years before her passing when she was being victimized by an unscrupulous grandson.  That meant I was paying all of her bills for her, keeping her books, and making financial decisions on her behalf.  Her mental faculties had begun to decline.  When it became apparent that it was no longer safe for her to drive, her car had to be retired and transportation arranged.

When she could no longer manage her home, a part-time housekeeper had to be provided and supervised.  When she could no longer live unassisted, other living arrangements had to be made and her home sold to help with her expenses.  All the while, my sister and I were involved with her healthcare, arranging for and accompanying her on visits to the doctor, providing for transportation when she needed a wheelchair van, and picking up medications.

Aunt Bea's advice is very, very wise.   Although my parents had downsized to a smaller home 25 years before my mothers death, cleaning our their house prior to its sale was a big job.  Thank heaven for other family members who pitched in and helped with that task.  At the time she died, most arrangements had been made.  I had prearranged/paid for her funeral, had all required documentation in hand, and the family had written her obituary.  Her financial resources lasted to cover most of her expenses.

OD, talk with your niece and, if she is agreeable to taking on this role, let her and be appreciative.  This is not the sort of thing I would ever want to trust to a paid "fiduciary".


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## Lethe200 (Feb 19, 2019)

Depends on the complexity of the estate. Being willing to do the job doesn't mean that person will know HOW or the best way to handle complex issues. 

Especially when dealing with finances or certain legal/tax issues, a wrong decision can't be 'backtracked', which can have serious consequences.

In our case, this thread has made me realize we intended to bring our secondary trustee up to speed on our estate, but have not. So that "to do" item just got bumped up on the list for 2019, sigh.

She is honest and willing - but she has absolutely no experience with long-term care insurance, pensions, and managing a good-sized investment portfolio with an eye to taxes. She has never met our estate attorney or tax advisor.

30 yrs ago our estate would have been simple. We were still filing 1040EZs, LOL. At this point, although we are not wealthy, we are in the upper 10% and estate matters are proportionately more complex.


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## Old Dummy (Feb 19, 2019)

Thanks to all for the replies.

FWIW, having everything laid out in advance doesn't mean everything will be okay. A good friend told me horror stories about two people he did this for, who both had wills, yet it was messy and drawn out. Everything did not end up the way it was supposed to -- despite the wills.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 20, 2019)

[h=1]_“Our anxiety does not come from thinking about the future, but from wanting to control it.”_― *Kahlil Gibran*[/h]


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## retiredtraveler (Feb 23, 2019)

Old Dummy said:


> .....FWIW, having everything laid out in advance doesn't mean everything will be okay. A good friend told me horror stories about two people he did this for, who both had wills, yet it was messy and drawn out. Everything did not end up the way it was supposed to -- despite the wills.



I'm late to this discussion. The reason it was 'messy' is that you don't do a will --- you do a revocable trust. If you set up everything in a trust, there is no probate. Wife and I got a lawyer and took care of this some years ago, along with the medical poa, living will, etc. 
   If you research revocable trusts, you'll see why one should not bother with a commonplace will.


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## Lethe200 (Feb 24, 2019)

retiredtraveler said:


> I'm late to this discussion. The reason it was 'messy' is that you don't do a will --- you do a revocable trust. If you set up everything in a trust, there is no probate. Wife and I got a lawyer and took care of this some years ago, along with the medical poa, living will, etc.
> If you research revocable trusts, you'll see why one should not bother with a commonplace will.



I'm very sorry to disagree, but this is not true. Even with an RLT, heirs can disagree and tie up the estate into knots. I personally witnessed such a family who were second-gen clients at the firm I worked at. Once the last parent died, the two sisters/one son ended up in court when one of the sisters simply refused to cooperate with her siblings.

The irony was it wasn't a large estate, most of the net worth was the family home. The sister who would not cooperate sued her brother, the trustee, even though she had no chance of winning the suit (she was clearly in the wrong) and all it accomplished was to REDUCE everybody's inheritance, since the estate had to bear the costs of defending itself against her.

Because of the lawsuit, the sale of the house had to be postponed until the court decision. By that time the Great Recession was already underway. The house had lost 20% of its market value from the time of the original appraisal, which was performed when the mother died, almost a year before the recession hit.

Never, ever, assume an estate can be "neatly wrapped up" by ANY legal document, when you have multiple heirs.


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## Butterfly (Feb 24, 2019)

Lethe200 said:


> I'm very sorry to disagree, but this is not true. Even with an RLT, heirs can disagree and tie up the estate into knots. I personally witnessed such a family who were second-gen clients at the firm I worked at. Once the last parent died, the two sisters/one son ended up in court when one of the sisters simply refused to cooperate with her siblings.
> 
> The irony was it wasn't a large estate, most of the net worth was the family home. The sister who would not cooperate sued her brother, the trustee, even though she had no chance of winning the suit (she was clearly in the wrong) and all it accomplished was to REDUCE everybody's inheritance, since the estate had to bear the costs of defending itself against her.
> 
> ...



Yes!  I worked for lawyers my whole working life, and I worked on countless estate hassles.  Heirs (or wannabee heirs) challenge wills and try to bust trusts for all kinds of reasons.  These challenges can go on for years and years and as Lethe says above, drain the estate of value because of the duty to defend against even an obviously frivolous challenge.  Often the only people who win in these cases are the lawyers.

I've seen estate fights get far more acrimonious than divorces.  Most of us have no idea how mean and greedy people can get over a relative's estate, even a modest one.


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## retiredtraveler (Feb 25, 2019)

Lethe200 said:


> I'm very sorry to disagree, but this is not true. Even with an RLT, heirs can disagree and tie up the estate into knots.



You're correct. I assumed that this was a basic case of common will that went into probate and took forever to sort out. That is a common problem that people like Suze Orman warn against, all the time. Yes, I agree that anyone can sue regardless of the legal document and keep things from being settled. That's simply not the rule, however. From what I've read, no more than 3% of wills are contested, but meanwhile, people waste time and money in probate because they have not set up an RLT.


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## Butterfly (Feb 26, 2019)

Old Dummy said:


> Thanks to all for the replies.
> 
> FWIW, having everything laid out in advance doesn't mean everything will be okay. A good friend told me horror stories about two people he did this for, who both had wills, yet it was messy and drawn out. Everything did not end up the way it was supposed to -- despite the wills.



Well we've never been able to completely control what life brings when we are alive, so it isn't really reasonable to believe we can control things after we are dead.


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## JB in SC (Mar 7, 2019)

My dad and mom had solid wills and I was the only heir, simple and easy to handle. My late uncle was a different story, trusts involving substantial property that took several years to sell. A stubborn executor and expensive attorney that drained thousands needlessly.


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## WhatInThe (Mar 7, 2019)

*Formal vs informal. Don't assume squat.*

I've seen estates settled real formal and/or informal. It absolutely pays to designate an executor and spell out any last wishes in writing in some fashion. 

Aunt Bea's advice is best. Best thing is become highly organized so your heirs will have little trouble finding stuff. Don't have to condense it but if physically able clean out and organize your stuff you know you never will do anything with. If you think you have valuables your heirs won't appreciate shop them/get rid of them yourself. Also many young ones have little interest in what were valuable collectables years ago-example stamp & coin market are flat/dead partially because the younger generations have no interest wether it be from lack of finances or exposure. Also most dealers buying anything metal are mostly buying it for meltdown value so don't save things thinking it will be preserved fo prosperity or future generations. If you know who has a true appreciation of what ever put it and them in a will.

If you want if you think you have enough insurance policies and just want enough for your funeral/burial expenses you can stop paying with many policies. Also spell out what you want. If you want informal rather than formal religious service spell it out somewhere anywhere. 

It all depends on how much you really want to give your heirs. Do they deserve it and do you want them to have it because you want to or that's how everybody else does it. Don't assume feuding family will come together or work it out because you passed. You work it out for them with a clear cut will. And if any account allows you to designate a beneficiary do it. Things go smoother if the bank or broker has predesignated beneficiaries, still need the proper paperwork but it goes smoother.

I don't how much you verbalized your estate or affairs to your heirs but I operate under the assumption anything given to me from anyone is a bonus, not an entitlement. If they are already talking about what they want or should get get a will now.

In some states out of state heirs can or might create issues because it can make the process really formal.

One last thing for now your heirs can use a lawyer as needed and/or even do a lot themselves if they are willing to wait at a city hall and complete a bureaucratic process themselves. Some lawyers will want more than 10 times amount of the individual bills to handle everything but some people don't want any paperwork, phone calls and/or simply dont want to do it themselves-but they'll pay. Expenses can be deducted off the final taxable value of the estate as well.


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## Old Dummy (Mar 18, 2019)

Tommy said:


> I had this role for my late mother.  I'll say up front that it was no simple task.  I would, however, and without hesitation, do it again if necessary for any other family member.  It's just one of those things families do for one another (and it would be a valuable learning experience for your niece).  At the time, I lived over 1000 miles from my mother.  I was fortunate to have "boots on the ground" help from a sister who lived nearby and continual support from my loving wife (God bless her!).
> 
> Some reality:
> 
> ...



I spent an hour talking to my sis and BiL the other night, and from what they told me (along with what they said a month ago) my niece won't mind doing this. I guess what bothers her more than having to do this is thinking about her uncle someday being gone. 

I generally only see her on TG, Christmas, and Easter. Not sure if I'll get a chance to talk to her about this on Easter Sunday, but maybe after everyone leaves -- we'll see.

I told my sis that I would will my real estate to her.


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## OneEyedDiva (Mar 23, 2019)

So have you talked with your niece or figured out another feasible option yet OD?


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## Old Dummy (Mar 27, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> So have you talked with your niece or figured out another feasible option yet OD?



Nope. I'm no farther ahead than I was a year ago. Which means I'm nowhere.


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## debbie in seattle (Mar 27, 2019)

Stop procrastinating and just do it.   If your one niece is your obvious choice, ask her and so be it.   My husband and I went through The Who should be the executor and the obvious choice was our youngest daughter and not the oldest.   That’s how all is set up.   If you wait any longer and do nothing, THAT’S going to be a big mess.


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## AZ Jim (Mar 27, 2019)

My estate (such as it is) is in a trust and my oldest Grandchild will administer it, she is sharp.


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## Old Dummy (Mar 27, 2019)

debbie in seattle said:


> Stop procrastinating and just do it.   If your one niece is your obvious choice, ask her and so be it.   My husband and I went through The Who should be the executor and the obvious choice was our youngest daughter and not the oldest.   That’s how all is set up.   If you wait any longer and do nothing, THAT’S going to be a big mess.



Oh were it that easy -- only an executor. I also need a health care person and power of attorney to lay on someone. The latter of which could be a many-years' long job, depending on my health in my last years. And an alternate for each position.


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## debbie in seattle (Mar 27, 2019)

Old Dummy said:


> Oh were it that easy -- only an executor. I also need a health care person and power of attorney to lay on someone. The latter of which could be a many-years' long job, depending on my health in my last years. And an alternate for each position.



So did we, easy for us, youngest daughter is all, oldest daughter is next choice.   My husband only had months to live, necessary decisions.   Granted we discussed with our youngest.


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## Old Dummy (Mar 28, 2019)

debbie in seattle said:


> So did we, easy for us, youngest daughter is all, oldest daughter is next choice.   My husband only had months to live, necessary decisions.   Granted we discussed with our youngest.



Kids are the obvious first choice. But per my OP, I have no kids.


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## OneEyedDiva (Apr 10, 2019)

Old Dummy said:


> Kids are the obvious first choice. But per my OP, I have no kids.


If your niece's parents said they feel she'd be willing to do it, chances are they are right.  Though it may not be an easy task, it's much, much harder when someone has to step in and they don't know what the heck is going on with your affairs.  You've gotten *good* advice....follow through. Do EVERYBODY a favor and have a sit down with her!! Not letting your loved ones know your wishes regarding health care should you need to be on life support is something that could cause them guilt and despair for a long time should they feel they've made the wrong decision(s). And not letting them know where to find important papers, insurance(s) and how to access what will need to be resolved once you pass makes for an excruciating process. You know *somebody* will have to do it, so that person needs to be well informed.  If by some remote chance your niece says she doesn't want the responsibility, then you'll at least know you have to go to plan B. Bottom line is life is not promised to us, even for the next day. My husband seemed fine and was active as of the first week in September 2018 and dead before the end of the year. I'm glad I talked him into getting his living will done in September. He wound up on life support for almost two weeks and his advanced directive let us know not to let it go beyond that. So, *please,* take care of this.


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## Old Dummy (Apr 10, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> If your niece's parents said they feel she'd be willing to do it, chances are they are right.  Though it may not be an easy task, it's much, much harder when someone has to step in and they don't know what the heck is going on with your affairs.  You've gotten *good* advice....follow through. Do EVERYBODY a favor and have a sit down with her!! Not letting your loved ones know your wishes regarding health care should you need to be on life support is something that could cause them guilt and despair for a long time should they feel they've made the wrong decision(s). And not letting them know where to find important papers, insurance(s) and how to access what will need to be resolved once you pass makes for an excruciating process. You know *somebody* will have to do it, so that person needs to be well informed.  If by some remote chance your niece says she doesn't want the responsibility, then you'll at least know you have to go to plan B. Bottom line is life is not promised to us, even for the next day. My husband seemed fine and was active as of the first week in September 2018 and dead before the end of the year. I'm glad I talked him into getting his living will done in September. He wound up on life support for almost two weeks and his advanced directive let us know not to let it go beyond that. So, *please,* take care of this.



Thanks for your thoughtful response.

For me, there is no "Plan B," aside from doing absolutely nothing.


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## OneEyedDiva (Apr 12, 2019)

Old Dummy said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
> 
> For me, there is no "Plan B," aside from doing absolutely nothing.



You're welcome OD.  I just hope everything works out for you.


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## Old Dummy (May 16, 2019)

Well it's a done deal. I signed all the papers today at my lawyer's office.

My niece (or sister, depending on who is alive at the time to do the health care stuff, PoA, and executor) will get my house to do whatever they want with it. Also left a nice chunk to my other niece and my nephew. I wanted to leave my '07 Corvette to my nephew but it was too complicated, but with the money he can buy one much nicer than mine if he chooses. 

Besides, he's already getting his father's '66 Vette; he may not want another one, heh. Poor kid.

Oh well, life sucks and then you croak.


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