# Do you agree with the Pope on limits to freedom of speech?



## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

He has stated that religious figures should not be made fun of or insulted.  I don't agree and believe figures of any stripe are fair game, be they political, religious, academic, etc.  Please agree with me on this cold end of what for many is the end of the workweek...


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

Being free to do something is not the same as getting off scot free if you choose to do so.
Similarly, if you support freedom of speech you had better be prepared to take having your own deeply held philosophy attacked and denigrated.

I curtail some of my thoughts about the USA on this forum because I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest.
And besides, you're all probably packing more heat than I could ever get my hands on.

There's freedom of expression and then there is prudence.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

You have unkind thoughts about the "necessary" nation?  Who would have thunk it...


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

Not unkind, but not what some people may want to hear...

... so if you want people to listen to what you want to say then it's better not to provoke them into a rage first.

Communications 101.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes "Freedom of Speech" is there, but it can (and does) get many people into trouble. Just try that "Freedom of Speech" thing on a cop or a Judge and see what happens! As for me, I've learned, thru this forum and another one, AND in my person life to sort of..............watch what I say!!.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

You Commonwealth types just don't understand our rightful position in the world that was God chosen...


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

Maybe and maybe not.

Insiders may critique their own group (and probably should do) but outsiders should tread with caution.
It's the same in families. Siblings may fight and argue constantly but when someone else picks on one of them, they have the whole lot lined up against them.

Religion is like that. It is not above criticism but gratuitous insults can be very overdone. 
Outsiders would be wise to learn some sensitivity. Fools rush in... and all that.


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> You Commonwealth types just don't understand our rightful position in the world that was God chosen...



Ahahaha!


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

Be careful or we will put you on our short list for invasion...


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Be careful or we will put you on our short list for invasion...



Och, no. We're allies.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

That's what we want you to believe until you hear the helicopters...


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> That's what we want you to believe until you here the helicopters...



Not worried. layful:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

Remember what happened to Bin Laden?


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Remember what happened to Bin Laden?



And you will attack the UK because? Remember I'm a Yank too. Used to have a US navy base about 5 miles from my house.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

The Seals could be on their way!


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## AZ Jim (Jan 16, 2015)

Even with free speech we need to understand what we say comes with consequences.  Those who doubt the foregoing need only stop a big guy on the street an insult the woman he is with. There are some limits on free speech now.  Inciting a riot comes to mind as does the often quoted "fire in the crowded theater".


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## WhatInThe (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> He has stated that religious figures should not be made fun of or insulted.  I don't agree and believe figures of any stripe are fair game, be they political, religious, academic, etc.  Please agree with me on this cold end of what for many is the end of the workweek...



I don't care what kind of figure you are I'll talk about you anyway I want and expect others to do the same. That being said unless I'm in your house or face what is being said around the world is simply speech. Anyone who wants limits on speech other than FIRE! in a crowded theater is not only trying to limit speech but limit dissent, they want to limit dissent to make it easier to impose their views and eventually control your behavior.

We can get into things like sticks & stones etc but this is all about making it easier for religious figures in particular to sell their product/themselves.


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## NancyNGA (Jan 16, 2015)

From what I've read so far, I like this pope so much, I'm willing to give him a pass on this, at least until I find out more.


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## Cookie (Jan 16, 2015)

Freedom of speech be what it may be..... every leader religious and otherwise has been getting their share of mockery for ages, but don't be surprised when the dangerous snake you are teasing turns around and bites you ... I have no answers to this issue but isn't it obvious that provoking a fundamentalist irrational faction is bound to turn out badly.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 16, 2015)

Cookie said:


> Freedom of speech be what it may be..... every leader religious and otherwise has been getting their share of mockery for ages, but don't be surprised when the dangerous snake you are teasing turns around and bites you ... I have no answers to this issue but isn't it obvious that provoking a fundamentalist irrational faction is bound to turn out badly.



But is speech "provoking" these factions or are these factions voluntarily chosing to be "provoked" to exploit this situation for their own gain. Did Charlie Hebdo purposely throw copies of their magazine into a Mosque or a Muslim's house? How is public speech a direct personal insult. To 'disagree', 'don't like', 'don't appreciate' or 'be incensed' are all different things. Physical action and being diametrically opposed are two different things. Yet all of these things seem to be lumped together.


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## Cookie (Jan 16, 2015)

They have been brainwashed to be provoked and do not think rationally for themselves - they are members of a dangerous and violent 'cult' and do not think for behave like normal human beings anymore.  They have been trained to kill anyone that they consider a threat to their ideology and will use any excuse to do so.


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## Sunny (Jan 16, 2015)

I had not heard about the Pope's comment, so I looked it up out of curiosity. Here's the article about it.

http://rt.com/news/222935-pope-religion-freedom-insulted/

It sounds to me that he was speaking more as a conciliatory politician than as a religious leader. (And of course, the nature of his job does make him a politician.)  It was the kind of generally "respectful" comment that heads of state frequently make. I wouldn't read too much into it, for that reason.

As for my own feelings about this, I think that any leader of anything is fair game for humor, commentary, argument, and yes, even ridicule. Religious leaders included. (Or maybe, I should say religious leaders especially.)


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

When I am online, whether I am on a forum or Facebook, I try to keep in mind that behind every pseudonym and avatar is a real person with real feelings. For that reason I temper what I write because I have no idea what each one has suffered or what they are going through on any particular day. I don't give myself the freedom to be cruel for the same reason I don't pull the wings off flies. 

IMO, magazines like Charlie Hebdo go far beyond offering fair and reasoned criticism of religion. They aim to deliver death by a thousand cuts to any and all religious faiths and in doing so they stir up strong feelings, not just among the muslim community but also among catholics and Jews. Most of us deal with our anger without becoming violent but some, from cultures where insult must be avenged, have a lot of difficulty doing this and resentment grows with each fresh insult.

One of our more vile cartoonists entered the post Charlie fray with a sketch of a fat, pink pig skewered by a pencil being roasted over a fire

Mods - please edit this if it is too offensive



Spoiler











In associating the Prophet with a pig with a Halal stamp, he couldn't have been more offensive to muslims, radical or otherwise.
Now he is under police protection. The publicity is exactly what he was angling for IMO. He's cashing in.

Let's now forget that there's a subtle difference between you and I voicing our opinions openly and someone who sets out to be offensive because they want to make a buck and notoriety is a good way to do that.


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## oakapple (Jan 17, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> You Commonwealth types just don't understand our rightful position in the world that was God chosen...



Oh Ralphy, what would we do without you, you DO make us chuckle!


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## oakapple (Jan 17, 2015)

Good posts from you DW [as always.]


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## oakapple (Jan 17, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Even with free speech we need to understand what we say comes with consequences. Those who doubt the foregoing need only stop a big guy on the street an insult the woman he is with. There are some limits on free speech now. Inciting a riot comes to mind as does the often quoted "fire in the crowded theater".



 Exactly AZ, well said.



Ralphy1 said:


> The Seals could be on their way!



I like seals with their furry fat bods and velvety noses [though they do pong of fish.]


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2015)

The advance party is already here

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/s...f-the-sydney-opera-house-20150113-12n53o.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/v...ydney-sightseers-at-opera-house-30903039.html


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 17, 2015)

Like I've already stated..........go ahead and use foul language towards a cop or Judge, then say "that is my Free Speech right to say what I want to". I can just see the handcuffs coming out and the cop saying "see what happens when you disrespect an Officer" or Judge saying "your sentence has just been doubled for disrespecting my Bench!"


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## SifuPhil (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't think religious figures should be putting themselves above anyone else. That's Pride ... one of the deadly sins.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 17, 2015)

Sunny said:


> I had not heard about the Pope's comment, so I looked it up out of curiosity. Here's the article about it.
> 
> http://rt.com/news/222935-pope-religion-freedom-insulted/
> 
> ...



I just read about it too, and I like Pope Francis compared to others in the past.  He is leader of the Catholics, and that's all, so I don't read much into his statements either.  Everyone is fair game, religious leaders especially, IMO.  I do wish that we didn't have to resort to those childish offensive cartoons though, regardless of category.  I never like them or paid much attention to them.  But nobody should be losing their lives over them in any free country.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 17, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> Like I've already stated..........go ahead and use foul language towards a cop or Judge, then say "that is my Free Speech right to say what I want to". I can just see the handcuffs coming out and the cop saying "see what happens when you disrespect an Officer" or Judge saying "your sentence has just been doubled for disrespecting my Bench!"



You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.  I don't put cops or judges on a pedestal, they're just doing the jobs they signed up for.  Handcuffs shouldn't come out unless a crime is committed that warrants arrest.  Length of sentence should be justified to fit the crime involved, not a personal means of retaliation.  That is a big problem with the justice system these days, it's no longer fair, but personally punitive with spite as the driving factor.  Crooked cops and judges have proved that over the years, and it needs to stop.


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2015)

Anyone think that this is an infringement of freedom of speech?

*Bigger fines for offensive conduct*


31st March 2014  


From Monday 31 March, increased on-the-spot fines of up to $1100 will be handed out to anyone engaging in drunken or anti-social behaviour. 

*policefines_760x428.jpg*








The new penalties are part of the Government’s crackdown on public drug and alcohol fuelled violence. Under the new scheme, criminal infringement notices for offensive language and offensive behaviour will rise to $500, while continued intoxicated and disorderly behaviour after a direction to ‘move on’ will attract a fine of $1100.

Attorney General Greg Smith SC announced the scheme as the latest step in the government’s mission to target drunken behaviour on NSW streets. The announcement follows the recent implementation of new alcohol laws, which include 1.30am lockouts and mandatory minimum sentences for fatal one punch attacks.

The new penalty structure will be:

Criminal Infringement 
 Notice type
Old fine
New fine from 31/3
Offensive language
$150
$500
Offensive conduct
$200
$500
Continuation of intoxicated and disorderly behaviour following move on direction
$200
$1100


“The message to drunken thugs is clear: violent, offensive and anti-social behaviour simply won’t be tolerated. Anyone ignoring that message should prepare to learn a very expensive lesson,” Mr Smith said. 

Minister for Police and Emergency Services, Michael Gallacher said police, armed with greater powers and more resources would be out on the streets actively enforcing the new fines.


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 18, 2015)

So, we can limit our freedom of speech, to please the Muslims, then the Catholics then the Protestants then everyone else?

THAT my friends in not freedom of speech...true freedom of speech allows us to voice our opinions on  anything even if you are very insulting in doing so. 

 " Responsible freedom of speech" is no freedom of speech.

Our freedom of speech is one of the cornerstones which have made America so strong .


If we start modifying that.. the terrorists have won !!!


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## Warrigal (Jan 18, 2015)

At the age of ten I was taught to speak up and express myself and to have opinions. However the teacher insisted that we should always do it with respect, especially to the people with whom we disagreed.

I think this approach strikes the right balance and then even ten year olds can exercise their right to freedom of expression.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 18, 2015)

Well, go ahead and say anything you want to one of your law enforcement officers or to a Judge in court and just see what happens. This isn't a dare, but......



Elyzabeth said:


> So, we can limit our freedom of speech, to please the Muslims, then the Catholics then the Protestants then everyone else?
> 
> THAT my friends in not freedom of speech...true freedom of speech allows us to voice our opinions on  anything even if you are very insulting in doing so.
> 
> ...


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## Butterfly (Jan 19, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.  I don't put cops or judges on a pedestal, they're just doing the jobs they signed up for.  Handcuffs shouldn't come out unless a crime is committed that warrants arrest.  Length of sentence should be justified to fit the crime involved, not a personal means of retaliation.  That is a big problem with the justice system these days, it's no longer fair, but personally punitive with spite as the driving factor.  Crooked cops and judges have proved that over the years, and it needs to stop.



There are rules in courts to assure order.  All are expected to address the bench with respect, and to speak in their proper turn.  If everybody could just jump up and holler out whatever they wanted when they wanted to, it would just be chaotic.  This isn't anything to do with free speech, but has to do with the rules in place within the framework of the court system.  If you do not respect the rules of the court or become disruptive, you can be held in contempt or removed from the courtroom.


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone from a homeless man to the President, from  the Queen of England to the cleaning woman, were to be treated with great respect. I think that would be the Pope's message. Respect is not just for religions, it is for everyone, even when they don't expect it or deserve it.

It starts with not being deliberately insulting and offensive.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Yes, nicely said, and I promise to treat furriners with more respect...


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Me too, Ralphy. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Well, obviously, this is not going to go well...


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Ah, but you have to understand that an Aussie expresses respect by tormenting those we hold in highest esteem.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Oh, please, don't start with the condescension...  :sentimental:


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## SifuPhil (Jan 19, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Ah, but you have to understand that an Aussie expresses respect by tormenting those we hold in highest esteem.



Well, if the whip marks on my back are any indication, you must respect me an _awful_ lot! layful:


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Stop begging, both of you. 
My tortuous respect has to be earned.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

If I was King you would be sent to the tower for a little head adjustment...


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## rkunsaw (Jan 19, 2015)

You can have freedom of speech and still be restricted as to where or when you can say things. 

This forum for instance. We can say what we want _*only*_ as long as we follow the rules of the forum. If you want an unrestricted voice you can start your  own forum.


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> If I was King you would be sent to the tower for a little head adjustment...


King? or THE King?


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

No one could ever be THE King, but I could have been your King in previous times as my name is Richard, and I would have shown you no mercy no matter how much you groveled...


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

With all due respect, here you go Dicky :tongue:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

I am also known as generously endowed Richard...  nthego:


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

:tmi:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Sorry, but you elicited it from this otherwise shy and sensitive lad...


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## Warrigal (Jan 19, 2015)

Shame on you, Ralphy.
Three fibs in one sentence - shy - sensitive - and a lad?

Play by yourself for a while now. 
It's half past the witching hour over here but only because of daylight saving.

Need to recharge the brain cells with some down time.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Sleep well if you can with the possibility of helicopters circling overhead...  :love_heart:


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## flowerchild (Jan 19, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> He has stated that religious figures should not be made fun of or insulted.  I don't agree and believe figures of any stripe are fair game, be they political, religious, academic, etc.  Please agree with me on this cold end of what for many is the end of the workweek...


 Agree with you Ralphy! Works both ways. 
Cartoons make fun of just about everyone who is somebody. I don't see them out bombing and terrorizing because of it!


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 21, 2015)

Freedom of speech is not "tastefully  done"


It is in  your face

It doesn't not need to be polite, 

or liked 

or approved of !!!

That is the Point of FREEDOM OF SPEECH !!!

everyone CAN HATE WHAT IS SAID 

BUT AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT DEFAME A PERSON

 OR AN OPGAINIZATION PERSONALLY. 

IN A WAY WHICH CANNOT BE PROVEN...

 THIS IS THE REAL FREEDOM OF SPEECH !!


I  really appreciate it now that I live in a country that says they have it ,

 but actually they do not

People come from all over the world to try libel cases, 
because the have the most draconian laws to give big money to the people who sue for libel


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## oakapple (Jan 21, 2015)

We DO have free speech here, just as much as you have in the US Elyzabeth. I realise that you don't like living here, but that is not a reason to constantly  denigrate our country , and certainly just the opposite of what I would do if I were living in your country.When it comes to all forms of litigation, the US is right  up there at the top of the list.Our libel laws are not to 'give big money to people who sue for libel'  quite often the person who sues loses the case.


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## AZ Jim (Jan 21, 2015)

oakapple said:


> We DO have free speech here, just as much as you have in the US Elyzabeth. I realise that you don't like living here, but that is not a reason to constantly  denigrate our country , and certainly just the opposite of what I would do if I were living in your country.When it comes to all forms of litigation, the US is right  up there at the top of the list.Our libel laws are not to 'give big money to people who sue for libel'  quite often the person who sues loses the case.



I don't know a thing about England's libel laws but as to the number of cases here it occurs to me there is a significant different in populations.  England around 54 Million and the U.S at 316 million. 6 times more people probably spells more libel cases.  That may account for the difference.


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## Vivjen (Jan 21, 2015)

Sure you are right, AZ Jim; but we don't have world wide libel cases, and sueing is very expensive; no legal aid.
so may well be roughly similar....
The law was tightened in 2114 too, so cases here are dropping...


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## Elyzabeth (Jan 25, 2015)

The only "balance " of true freedom of speech , is not lie or  to libel anyone or you can be sued.. 


Doesn't anyone get that the TRUE BEAUTY of freedom of speech is that it is allowed...???


 and it is FREE???


That is NOT exist in other countries.. even in other " Democracies"


THAT is one awesome right  that we have, don't try to mess with it..or you mess with our freedom... period!!!


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## flowerchild (Jan 25, 2015)

Agreed!


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