# understanding goverment by the people



## cdestroyer (Jun 9, 2021)

Our particular form of democracy is unique, it is probably not suitable for other countries. It is a republic, it is governed by the people, it is laid down in the most basic form in our declaration of independence and constitution, it is watched over by the three powers we set for rules, the presidential, the legaslative, the court and over the years we have modified it to take into account the changing times by vote, by the free expression of the will of the people.yea or nay we all accepted what was voted, if you didnt vote that is your problem yet you still live here freely able to express your opions. I have been to war in uniform, I lived in the sixties and seen the haight, I have had the *&$#$*()$ people tell me things that were there not laws they would not have lived long, It took a long long time and age to understand what it was I fought for!
I have said enough!!!!!!!!!!


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 10, 2021)

In its purest form American democracy is the turkey, you are standing next to, has as many rights; as you do.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 10, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> Our particular form of democracy is unique, it is probably not suitable for other countries. It is a republic, it is governed by the people, it is laid down in the most basic form in our declaration of independence and constitution, it is watched over by the three powers we set for rules, the presidential, the legaslative, the court and over the years we have modified it to take into account the changing times by vote, by the free expression of the will of the people.yea or nay we all accepted what was voted, if you didnt vote that is your problem yet you still live here freely able to express your opions. I have been to war in uniform, I lived in the sixties and seen the haight, I have had the *&$#$*()$ people tell me things that were there not laws they would not have lived long, It took a long long time and age to understand what it was I fought for!
> I have said enough!!!!!!!!!!


Our current problem is that it's breaking down.  That said, there's been gridlock before and we got through it.  There's been rule by the minority (which we now pretty much have), but we've gotten through it.  Etc.  I suppose we'll get through it all this time, too.


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## cdestroyer (Jun 10, 2021)

"In its purest form American democracy is the turkey, you are standing next to, has as many rights; as you do." what the hell does this mean???????????


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 10, 2021)

I believe that the _bones_ of our government are still sound but our attitude as Americans needs work.

IMO we have too many people taking and not enough people contributing for our democracy to survive and thrive long term.

_"We cannot negotiate with those who say, 'What's mine is mine and what's yours is negotiable."_ - John F. Kennedy

_"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." _
- John F. Kennedy


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## ohioboy (Jun 10, 2021)

The American's Creed is insightful to a Republic (borrowed phrases wisely mixed).


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## 911 (Jun 15, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> "In its purest form American democracy is the turkey, you are standing next to, has as many rights; as you do." what the hell does this mean???????????


I think he's trying to make a statement that we are all created equal and have the same equal rights no matter, our color, religion, sex, national origin, etc., etc. Jeff Bozo and I have the same rights. (supposedly)


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## Don M. (Jun 15, 2021)

Our government bounces from Mess to Mess...but compared to what the people in some other nations have to contend with, we are quite lucky.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

To remain a world power, and to ensure the government holds equal, or in some cases, more power than The People, our elected branches of government have always fiddled with the laws of the land via new interpretations of existing law, the creation of new laws, and by amending the constitution in ways that are not necessarily beneficial to The People. Practically from it's inception, our gov't has been dissolving our power and increasing their own, just to make themselves rich and powerful. 

That time the people stormed the White House recently? That's OUR house. We built it for presidents to use temporarily, for their convenience. I remember when the White House was cordoned off after somebody landed a helicopter on the front lawn. It's not supposed to be cordoned off. I realize it's for the protection of the president, but that's why we pay for a Secret Service. I'm sure everyone's ok with a sign that says "No helicopter's allowed", and peace and respect should be required, but the White House shouldn't be cordoned off from the people. It makes us forget who's supposed to be in charge.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> To remain a world power, and to ensure the government holds equal, or in some cases, more power than The People, our elected branches of government have always fiddled with the laws of the land via new interpretations of existing law, the creation of new laws, and by amending the constitution in ways that are not necessarily beneficial to The People. Practically from it's inception, our gov't has been dissolving our power and increasing their own, just to make themselves rich and powerful.
> 
> That time the people stormed the White House recently? That's OUR house. We built it for presidents to use temporarily, for their convenience. I remember when the White House was cordoned off after somebody landed a helicopter on the front lawn. It's not supposed to be cordoned off. I realize it's for the protection of the president, but that's why we pay for a Secret Service. I'm sure everyone's ok with a sign that says "No helicopter's allowed", and peace and respect should be required, but the White House shouldn't be cordoned off from the people. It makes us forget who's supposed to be in charge.


Are you thinking of the Capitol, Murrmurr, in January?

WE are the PEOPLE.   The problem is that we don't realize it.  We can do something about all of this -- with our votes.  But we don't.  We complain about government and keep sending the same people back there.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Are you thinking of the Capitol, Murrmurr, in January?
> 
> WE are the PEOPLE.   The problem is that we don't realize it.  We can do something about all of this -- with our votes.  But we don't.  We complain about government and keep sending the same people back there.


Oh yeah, the Capitol Building.

You know, there was a time when it was perfectly legal, and in fact, a patriotic duty, to storm the legislature and tar & feather any representative who was considered a scoundrel. The good old days.


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## Irwin (Jun 15, 2021)

This biggest problem is that some people seem to be allowed to break the law with impunity. Actually, it's even worse than that. They break laws with enthusiastic support of their followers.

We're supposed to be a nation of laws and where no one is above the law, but that doesn't seem to be the case.


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## DaveA (Jun 15, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Our government bounces from Mess to Mess...but compared to what the people in some other nations have to contend with, we are quite lucky.


I agree Don. We have been, but to think it will just continue to drift along in this vane while we increase the amount of killing over trivialities seems a bit optimistic.  I hope you're right but when, in the past years did it even cross your mind, when heading out to shop or enjoy yourself that there might be some nut just looking for an excuse to shoot you over some perceived act that HE considered inappropriate. 

People even carrying weapons was a rarity, at least in my past years and home a, unless they were going hunting or returning home.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that the _bones_ of our government are still sound *but our attitude as Americans needs work*.
> 
> IMO we have too many people taking and not enough people contributing for our democracy to survive and thrive long term.
> 
> ...


Hi Aunt Bea. I believe very strongly that all levels of gov't have intentionally shaped our attitude to their benefit. And that's particularly easy when they have the media on board. People didn't start taking until the gov't started giving, and when it gives a lot, people take a lot. I also believe that the gov't has held people back, limited their financial success, so that they depend on gov't relief, and will take all they can get. Whether that's by design or just collateral damage while they themselves gain riches and power, I'm not sure. And maybe they are so removed from the lives of the people who are effected, they are completely unaware of the damage they cause.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 15, 2021)

Just a quick note:  I am sure you all know the U.S. is not a pure democracy.  It is a constitutional republic.  There's a difference.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Just a quick note:  I am sure you all now the U.S. is not a pure democracy.  It is a constitutional republic.  There's a difference.


Some of us know, but in some states they don't teach government in grade school anymore. And it's an elective course in higher levels of education.


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## JonDouglas (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Some of us know, but in some states they don't teach government in grade school anymore. And it's an elective course in higher levels of education.


In too many places, they don't teach much of anything any more, let alone civics.  It upsets the students and hurts their feelings, don't you know. </sarc>


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> In too many places, they don't teach much of anything any more, let alone civics.  It upsets the students and hurts their feelings, don't you know. </sarc>


Perfect examples of "shaping attitudes". It looks so intentional it's hard to believe it isn't.


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## Pepper (Jun 15, 2021)

It's a dumb down.  Dumb people are easier to manipulate.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Hi Aunt Bea. I believe very strongly that all levels of gov't have intentionally shaped our attitude to their benefit. And that's particularly easy when they have the media on board. People didn't start taking until the gov't started giving, and when it gives a lot, people take a lot.* I also believe that the gov't has held people back, limited their financial success, so that they depend on gov't relief, and will take all they can get.* Whether that's by design or just collateral damage while they themselves gain riches and power, I'm not sure. And maybe they are so removed from the lives of the people who are effected, they are completely unaware of the damage they cause.


Government has nothing to give anyone except what it takes from someone else.

How has the government kept people from getting out of bed and going to school to get an education or get a job?


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> Government has nothing to give anyone except what it takes from someone else.
> 
> *How has the government kept people back from getting out of bed and going to school to get an education or getting a job?*


By convincing them they couldn't; making them feel powerless and victimized, for example, but through many other tactics as well.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Some of us know, but in some states they don't teach government in grade school anymore. And it's an elective course in higher levels of education.


And Florida just passed a new civics curriculum that doesn't mention the word "slavery" and teaches the civil war as being fought strictly over states' rights.


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## horseless carriage (Jun 15, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> Our particular form of democracy is unique.


I would argue differently:
The vast majority of the rules and regulations guiding this nation have roots reaching back all the way to the British.  The founding fathers of the United States of America wanted to set up a democracy.  They were aiming for a government "elected every few years by popular vote" (Farndorn 2003, 47).  The founders of the nation succeeded in this feat and it was made possible by what they knew from the British.  The government of Great Britain had benefits and flaws throughout it and it became the goal of the creators of the United States government to pick out the good and apply it as well as use the knowledge of what they disliked to form new rules and regulations.  

The Constitution of the United States was written outlining the whole government process.  When writing the document, the founding fathers looked to the Magna Carta, English Bill of Rights as well as the Petition of Right as guiding factors.  Since they admired these documents they were able to use the given information to help with the formation of the Constitution.  Had the Americans not had negative interactions with the British, then they would not have gone into the new formation of a government with such distinct goals.  It becomes apparent that without the British, American government as it is today would cease to exist.  Through all of the hardships and struggles between colonial America and the countries overseas, there have been significant positive outcomes.  The British ruling systems had huge influence over the government formed for the United States of America.

https://sites.google.com/site/ashleighthoman/independent-study-political-behavior/term-paper

For what it's worth, in that I'm not seeking that British is best. America has vast amounts of natural resources that makes it a rich country, then again so does the combined wealth of Latin America. North America, that is the US & Canada adopted the British style of democracy, Latin America had it's wealth plundered by the Spanish conquistadors. The legacy of which, North America lives with today.


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## cdestroyer (Jun 15, 2021)

john adams used the term 'representative democracy' in 1794; so did noah webster in 1785; so did st. george tucker in his 1803 edition of blackstone; so did thomas jefferson in 1815. for whatever reason our form of government is still unique....


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## cdestroyer (Jun 15, 2021)

"quote irwin"This biggest problem is that some people seem to be allowed to break the law with impunity. Actually, it's even worse than that. They break laws with enthusiastic support of their followers.
who are you referring to???


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> john adams used the term 'representative democracy' in 1794; so did noah webster in 1785; so did st. george tucker in his 1803 edition of blackstone; so did thomas jefferson in 1815. for whatever reason our form of government is still unique....


I could be mistaken but I think what's unique about it is that the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights clearly define the limits of government. I believe that was something new at the time.


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## hollydolly (Jun 15, 2021)

...ermmm..is this politics ?...


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ...ermmm..is this politics ?...


No. It's understanding government.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 15, 2021)

Who in their right mind believes the people run our govt? "...of the people by the people and for the people" Shut up!
Signed,
      Lobbyists


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## fmdog44 (Jun 15, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> ...ermmm..is this politics ?...


Yes it is!


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## fmdog44 (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> No. It's understanding government.


And government falls under what category?


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Yes it is!


Ok, totally a matter of interpretation.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> And government falls under what category?


Civics.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 15, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> Our particular form of democracy is unique, it is probably not suitable for other countries. It is a republic, it is governed by the people, it is laid down in the most basic form in our declaration of independence and constitution, it is watched over by the three powers we set for rules, the presidential, the legaslative, the court and over the years we have modified it to take into account the changing times by vote, by the free expression of the will of the people.yea or nay we all accepted what was voted, if you didnt vote that is your problem yet you still live here freely able to express your opions*.* I have been to war in uniform, I lived in the sixties and seen the haight*,* I have had the *&$#$*()$ people tell me things that were there not laws they would not have lived long, It took a long long time and age to understand what it was I fought for!
> I have said enough!!!!!!!!!!


And your point is what?


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I could be mistaken but I think what's unique about it is that the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights clearly define the limits of government. I believe that was something new at the time.


So was the separation of powers -- I think.  (Not that they're very separate anymore)   I also think that a federation of the type we have was new although I could be wrong about that, too.  When we started out, the federation was so loose it couldn't hold together; hence, the Articles of Confederation were dumped (although the delegates had been sent only to amend them).  The question is -- did they overstep the bounds into illegality?


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> So was the separation of powers -- I think.  (Not that they're very separate anymore)   I also think that a federation of the type we have was new although I could be wrong about that, too.  When we started out, the federation was so loose it couldn't hold together; hence, the Articles of Confederation were dumped (although the delegates had been sent only to amend them).  The question is -- did they overstep the bounds into illegality?


The Founding Fathers did their best to make sure government would never become centralized. Legislators got around that by forming a separate federal entity with each state maintaining their authority. It's gone downhill from there.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The Founding Fathers did their best to make sure government would never become centralized. Legislators got around that by forming a separate federal entity with each state maintaining their authority. It's gone downhill from there.


There's plenty that could use changing starting with the Electoral College.  Then, there's the fact that the people in tiny states have a larger voice in the senate per person than people in larger states.  And then there's the fact that the House hasn't expanded and so seats (and electoral votes) have been taken from California so that the people in California are in the same position regarding the House as are people in large states regarding the Senate.  And then there's the fact that the members of the House choose their constituents rather than vice-versa because of gerrymandering.  Etc.  Etc.


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## DaveA (Jun 15, 2021)

Does Citizen's United mean anything re: lobbyists running the country?


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## ohioboy (Jun 15, 2021)

DaveA said:


> Does Citizen's United mean anything re: lobbyists running the country?


That was a joke. States starting forbidding it themselves then.


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## Don M. (Jun 15, 2021)

Our nation is becoming more of an Oligarchy than either a Republic of a Democracy.  If you want to find out just Who is really running things, spend some quality time on this web site....starting with researching your own politicians....

https://justfacts.votesmart.org/


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 15, 2021)

DaveA said:


> Does Citizen's United mean anything re: lobbyists running the country?


It's interesting.  It's actually a two-way street.  The lobbyists tell the politicians what to do, but the politicians often determine who will lobby them even to the point of seeing to it that their choices (can we say nepotism?) are hired by lobbying companies, including former politicians.  In other words, the politicians lobby the lobbyists and the lobbyists lobby the politicians.


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## Murrmurr (Jun 15, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> It's interesting.  It's actually a two-way street.  The lobbyists tell the politicians what to do, but the politicians often determine who will lobby them even to the point of seeing to it that their choices (can we say nepotism?) are hired by lobbying companies, including former politicians.  In other words, the politicians lobby the lobbyists and the lobbyists lobby the politicians.


And nothing of any real value gets done. Aside from money exchanging pockets, that is.


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## cdestroyer (Jun 16, 2021)

comments? and you wonder why we dont get along?


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 16, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> comments? and you wonder why we dont get along?


Who says I wonder?  LOL


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## 911 (Jun 16, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Just a quick note:  I am sure you all know the U.S. is not a pure democracy.  It is a constitutional republic.  There's a difference.


I agree. The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic with the benefits of having a Democracy ".....of the people, by the people and for the people," so says Abraham Lincoln 158 years ago.


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 16, 2021)

911 said:


> I agree. The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic with the benefits of having a Democracy ".....of the people, by the people and for the people," so says Abraham Lincoln 158 years ago.


Of the people, by the people, for the powerful people


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## Murrmurr (Jun 16, 2021)

cdestroyer said:


> comments? and you wonder why we dont get along?


Actually, I think this is the least argumentative thread on civics I've ever come across.


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## Irwin (Jun 16, 2021)

We have a constitutional republic with a representative democracy. Sounds good in theory.   

Come 4:00, we're also going to have margaritas, which is by far, the best form of government.


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## DaveA (Jun 17, 2021)

Irwin said:


> We have a constitutional republic with a representative democracy. Sounds good in theory.
> 
> Come 4:00, we're also going to have margaritas, which is by far, the best form of government.


What a bummer.  Being non-drinkers we can't even use that remedy.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 17, 2021)

Gee, it makes me wonder why there is so much changing of voting rules going on in 2021. Is this the will of *the people*?


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## Dancing_Queen (Jun 18, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Gee, it makes me wonder why there is so much changing of voting rules going on in 2021. Is this the will of *the people*?


It's the will of the people _who show up to vote_ in the Republican primaries in the states that are making the changes -- in addition, _in my opinion_, to a power grab.


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