# The President's Speech



## Underock1 (Oct 1, 2015)

Just watched the Presidents remarks on the Oregon shooting. I thought he was great. Truth in every word. Tells it exactly as it is, and in the end we will do nothing.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

The President knows that nothing will be done..  and that is what is so frustrating to him... and to the rest of us.  We are controlled by the wealthy few.. and those that would be responsible for changing those laws are the ones whose jobs depend on keeping the status quo.. Congress will NOT do anything so long as they need the campaign contributions.


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## BobF (Oct 1, 2015)

And Democrat Reid is one of those that will not do anything to stop gun possession. 

Obama could have done this 6 years ago.   He just has to start the idea and give it to Congress to debate.   That is how this country is supposed to work.   He has just asked some folks in this country to make big scenes and force the issue to be brought up.   Most folks don't want to change the Constitution or take rights away from their neighbors or relatives even when they themselves don't  have a gun.

I don't have a gun but I often see most of the people of the US having guns would be a deterrent to many outside types if a shoot up war was started.

We still do not have any knowledge of who did the shooting, why, etc.    The Sheriffs said they would not be able to speak out for 24 or 48 hours more.   Was this person registered with a gun?   Was this person on drugs?    Was this person a mental type?   And many more questions that need answered.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

Unbelievable


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## Underock1 (Oct 1, 2015)

So its a citizenry armed with .22's against car bombers. Sounds good to me.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> So its a citizenry armed with .22's against car bombers. Sounds good to me.



no... apparently citizenry armed with .22's against the US Military.


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## BobF (Oct 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> no... apparently citizenry armed with .22's against the US Military.



How did the US military get into this picture?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

Isn't that what the fear is? or at least one of the favorite reasons some use to arm themselves to the teeth?  That the citizenry might have to defend itself against a tyrannical government?


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## mitchezz (Oct 1, 2015)

BobF said:


> And Democrat Reid is one of those that will not do anything to stop gun possession.
> 
> Obama could have done this 6 years ago.   He just has to start the idea and give it to Congress to debate.   That is how this country is supposed to work.   He has just asked some folks in this country to make big scenes and force the issue to be brought up.   Most folks don't want to change the Constitution or take rights away from their neighbors or relatives even when they themselves don't  have a gun.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter if the shooter was crazy or on drugs.....the issue is he was able to access guns.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> It doesn't matter if the shooter was crazy or on drugs.....the issue is he was able to access guns.



No matter Mitchezz.... it's all Obama's and Harry Reid's fault for not getting gun control passed...   Ask Bob..  lol!!


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## BobF (Oct 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> No matter Mitchezz.... it's all Obama's and Harry Reid's fault for not getting gun control passed...   Ask Bob..  lol!!



Not true at all QuickSilver.   Most of the country does not want the Constitution messed with, so it gets left alone.   I do not own a gun and do appreciate the way our Constitution is designed and the way any amendments to it get handled.   It does not just happen.   It needs proposed and debated in both houses of Congress.   If passed it has a long ride through all 50 states and I think it is near 70% (guess) need to agree before it can be changed.   It looks like at least a two year journey for simple ones and maybe much longer if somewhat controversial.


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## mitchezz (Oct 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> No matter Mitchezz.... it's all Obama's and Harry Reid's fault for not getting gun control passed...   Ask Bob..  lol!!



I sometimes feel that Obama gets blamed for everything from not winning the lottery to bad weather. He must have super powers lol


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## BobF (Oct 1, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> I sometimes feel that Obama gets blamed for everything from not winning the lottery to bad weather. He must have super powers lol



Never mind QuickSilvers response.   She is apparently frustrated by the truth.


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## Shalimar (Oct 1, 2015)

In a culture of denial, (perpetuated by wealth, special interests, religious extremism,) blame of President Obama is inevitable. When reason is ignored/repressed, the hysterical becomes the new reality, no matter how specious. Demagogues whip up fear to distract from the grim reality. My heart goes out to the American people whose children are dying again and again and again, while they seem helpless to avert it.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Oct 1, 2015)

BobF said:


> Not true at all QuickSilver.   Most of the country does not want the Constitution messed with, so it gets left alone.   I do not own a gun and do appreciate the way our Constitution is designed and the way any amendments to it get handled.   It does not just happen.   It needs proposed and debated in both houses of Congress.   If passed it has a long ride through all 50 states and I think it is near 70% (guess) need to agree before it can be changed.   It looks like at least a two year journey for simple ones and maybe much longer if somewhat controversial.



No one has to "mess with the Constitution" to enact a better way of keeping firearms out of the hands of the deranged and the violent.  There is not one thing in the 2nd Amendment that guarantees EVERY American the right to be armed.  If that were so, why is it illegal for convicted felons to be armed?  Legislation can be passed that would assist in keeping firearms in the hands of responsible parties and removing them from the hands of those irresponsible.  Has nothing to do with the President or Reid.  Has EVERYTHING to do with the GOP legislators bought off with gun lobby dollars.  No sense in making any attempt at running legislation through Congress that you know will be filibustered or voted down.  This is unlike the GOP who want to spend time legislating their own set of morals and religion, even if they know it won't get past the House.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 1, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> No one has to "mess with the Constitution" to enact a better way of keeping firearms out of the hands of the deranged and the violent.  There is not one thing in the 2nd Amendment that guarantees EVERY American the right to be armed.  If that were so, why is it illegal for convicted felons to be armed?  Legislation can be passed that would assist in keeping firearms in the hands of responsible parties and removing them from the hands of those irresponsible.  Has nothing to do with the President or Reid.  Has EVERYTHING to do with the GOP legislators bought off with gun lobby dollars.  No sense in making any attempt at running legislation through Congress that you know will be filibustered or voted down.  This is unlike the GOP who want to spend time legislating their own set of morals and religion, even if they know it won't get past the House.




Don't even bother trying GOM..... Bob gets frustrated by facts That are not out of his imagination.


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## Underock1 (Oct 1, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Isn't that what the fear is? or at least one of the favorite reasons some use to arm themselves to the teeth?  That the citizenry might have to defend itself against a tyrannical government?



Like the Dooms Day Preppers I see on TV. Building shelters stocked to the teeth in remote places to await the coming *"A**POCOLYPSE!". *Dum, de dum, dum. We don't just have isolated whackos in this country. We have fraternal orders of them.


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## Shalimar (Oct 1, 2015)

Inevitably, this trend will negatively affect the American tourism industry. With respect, many Canadians no longer feel safe touring America. I certainly am too chicken to teach in a college there. One of my colleagues was offered a lucrative position in a renowned college. He refused, citing security concerns.  I imagine  there are people overseas with similar reservations. How sad is that? Perhaps this is a good thing, money talks loudly, compassion in a whisper.


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## fureverywhere (Oct 1, 2015)

All we can do is pray that someday future generations will see fit to strike down that amendment. It won't happen in our lifetime. Until then it will continue and nobody can stop it...the end


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## mitchezz (Oct 1, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Inevitably, this trend will negatively affect the American tourism industry. With respect, many Canadians no longer feel safe touring America. I certainly am too chicken to teach in a college there. One of my colleagues was offered a lucrative position in a renowned college. He refused, citing security concerns.  I imagine  there are people overseas with similar reservations. How sad is that? Perhaps this is a good thing, money talks loudly, compassion in a whisper.



Our family is concerned for my niece who has settled in South Carolina especially as her hubby is a high school teacher. I also wish my daughter and sil weren't planning on backpacking around the USA next year.


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## Shalimar (Oct 1, 2015)

I hear you Mitchezz. Sad, most Americans are the warmest people you could ever meet. Unfortunately.....


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## mitchezz (Oct 1, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I hear you Mitchezz. Sad, most Americans are the warmest people you could ever meet. Unfortunately.....



Oh I know Shalimar.....we even allowed a couple of Yanks into our family!!One is totally anti guns as his Dad suffered his entire adult life as a result of a shooting accident. The other, while not owning a gun himself, defends his right to do so. My niece has told him if he ever brings a gun into their home she's on the first plane home.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

I don't blame other countries for looking on the US with disdain for this.   I live here and I am embarrassed by this.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> All we can do is pray that someday future generations will see fit to strike down that amendment. It won't happen in our lifetime. Until then it will continue and nobody can stop it...the end



It isn't necessary to strike down the amendment... Just clarify what a "Well organized militia" really means... and that it certainly doesn't mean a  "well armed and unregulated populace".


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## maxHR (Oct 2, 2015)

Until there is a mass shooting in the congress, nothing will be done.
america even seems happy to sacrifice its babies while they are at school
because if nothing was done after Sandy Hook nothing will be done, ...ever.
     For a country that holds itself up as shining example of democracy and the rule of law
why do people feel they need guns  to prevent an 'out of control' government/military?
   To an outsider, US gun culture has all the hallmarks of an addiction just like Ice drug addiction.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

maxHR said:


> Until there is a mass shooting in the congress, nothing will be done.
> america even seems happy to sacrifice its babies while they are at school
> because if nothing was done after Sandy Hook nothing will be done, ...ever.
> For a country that holds itself up as shining example of democracy and the rule of law
> ...



Don't count on it.   We had a congress woman shot in Arizona... Gabby Gifford.... not a freaking thing happened to gun laws..  We will go through this over and over...  after each shooting... people will talk about how something needs to be done...  The NRA will stay silent for a few weeks... Then make the usual statement that we need more guns not less... and everyone will go back to their corners..   until the NEXT shooting.


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## Debby (Oct 2, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> I sometimes feel that Obama gets blamed for everything from not winning the lottery to bad weather. He must have super powers lol




So that's who is to blame for my losing lottery tickets!  Now I'm PO'd.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

Debby said:


> So that's who is to blame for my losing lottery tickets!  Now I'm PO'd.




I stubbed my toe this morning....  THAAAAAAAANKS  Obama!!!!


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## Debby (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I don't blame other countries for looking on the US with disdain for this.   I live here and I am embarrassed by this.




On this issue it's like the inmates have taken over the asylum isn't it?


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

Something more sinister than guns is our problem.   What is under all the shootings.   I say it is in the way we are bringing up children and our lifestyles.

Something not mentioned in any of these ramblings about guns mentions the mind sets of the guilty.   Many were mental patients and are now, according to court decisions, getting sent to mental control places.   We have mental discoveries protected and not shared with gun control efforts, as I understand it, so some folks get permission to own guns when they should not.

We know little about this current shooter so we just blame the guns.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Something more sinister than guns is our problem.   What is under all the shootings.   I say it is in the way we are bringing up children and our lifestyles.
> 
> Something not mentioned in any of these ramblings about guns mentions the mind sets of the guilty.   Many were mental patients and are now, according to court decisions, getting sent to mental control places.   We have mental discoveries protected and not shared with gun control efforts, as I understand it, so some folks get permission to own guns when they should not.
> 
> We know little about this current shooter so we just blame the guns.



If you think about it in detail what kind of person go up to strangers and have no compunction shooting them in the head this is what scares me more than a gun or even bomb.

 Then again these killers get free publicity. Not saying their name is a symbolic gesture. What the media in particular needs to do is describe their acts for what they are, a cowardly act of a very perverse individual. And rather than looking for excuses what about personal responsibility for this and other acts & behaviors.

People with this type of rage won't stop at guns. Kacyznski's rage turned to bombs and/or "cause". Some say Hitler was a rage filled frustrated arteest. ISIS is current home of the rage filled psychopath-why would a person join a cult or movement that has zero respect for life and wants to kill it in some of the most brutal ways possible.

Not surprised at this response especially now with a press that asks questions like a couple of people sitting in a bar-What do you think about this...


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Something more sinister than guns is our problem.   What is under all the shootings.   I say it is in the way we are bringing up children and our lifestyles.
> 
> Something not mentioned in any of these ramblings about guns mentions the mind sets of the guilty.   Many were mental patients and are now, according to court decisions, getting sent to mental control places.   We have mental discoveries protected and not shared with gun control efforts, as I understand it, so some folks get permission to own guns when they should not.
> 
> We know little about this current shooter so we just blame the guns.



Of course it's not the GUN Bob... It's an unstable person WITH the gun...  BUT.. if he didn't have a gun, he couldn't have killed and injured so many as he did.. could he...  SO the thing is to keep guns out of the hands of people like this... don't you agree? 

I get so tired of people saying "IT"S NOT THE GUN THAT KILLS..IT"S THE PEOPLE...  OF course it's the people!!   That is why we want regulations and background checks done on the PEOPLE... not the gun.


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## Shalimar (Oct 2, 2015)

Hitler may have been a frustrated artiste, but he was also a psychopathic junkie/narcissist. A time bomb waiting to happen. He would have found a way to vent his rage regardless of the circumstances in which he lived. I shudder to think what he could have perpetrated  in the 21st century. I suspect he could have made  Isis look like a wannabe.


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## WhatInThe (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Of course it's not the GUN Bob... It's an unstable person WITH the gun...  BUT.. if he didn't have a gun, he couldn't have killed and injured so many as he did.. could he...  SO the thing is to keep guns out of the hands of people like this... don't you agree?
> 
> I get so tired of people saying "IT"S NOT THE GUN THAT KILLS..IT"S THE PEOPLE...  OF course it's the people!!   That is why we want regulations and background checks done on the PEOPLE... not the gun.



But that commonly used "if" statement is a hypothetical, post game commentary. What happened here? In detail what law was broken or not followed in this case? At what point does a person like this get put into a computer system as not being able to buy a gun? Did he do something in high school, his old state? Was he under psychiatric care? Do we really want a Minority Report society.

In detail, what happened here with this killer?


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> But that commonly used "if" statement is a hypothetical, post game commentary. What happened here? In detail what law was broken or not followed in this case? At what point does a person like this get put into a computer system as not being able to buy a gun? Did he do something in high school, his old state? Was he under psychiatric care? Do we really want a Minority Report society.
> 
> In detail, what happened here with this killer?




Well... we have never gotten to the point of making those decisions...  any sort of gun control or regulation including background checks at gun shows and online purchases has been a nonstarter and has never been seriously debated has it.    Besides... nothing is known of this killer other than he obviously shouldn't have had a gun...


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Of course it's not the GUN Bob... It's an unstable person WITH the gun...  BUT.. if he didn't have a gun, he couldn't have killed and injured so many as he did.. could he...  SO the thing is to keep guns out of the hands of people like this... don't you agree?
> 
> I get so tired of people saying "IT"S NOT THE GUN THAT KILLS..IT"S THE PEOPLE...  OF course it's the people!!   That is why we want regulations and background checks done on the PEOPLE... not the gun.



Then why won't the courts allow the medical folks to tell the gun control folks who should not be allowed to have a gun.    Our system is broken and that is one reason our not so brilliant ones get guns.   It is not the guns, it is the crazed and criminals that are the problem.   Something too hard for some to accept.   Fix our system and see if that helps.   But no matter what as there are those that just want to take guns from the people for unknown and unreal reasons.


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## Lon (Oct 2, 2015)

SOLUTION? Keep all guns but control, confiscate and ban all ammunication.


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## mitchezz (Oct 2, 2015)

There's no point analysing individual particular shootings......there's way too many. It should be obvious that America is experiencing all these massacres because it's all too easy for the mentally ill and those with anger management issues or personality disorders to get their hands on firearms. If you're serious about remedying this situation  make it that to own a firearm you have to prove that you NEED one.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

Far too many of the folks wanting gun control want the US to do away with its current government style and go to the way way far left socialist government style where the central government has full power to control individual lives.   The US is not designed that way and our current government has been pushing far too much from the central government and it should mostly be from the states to make those decisions using the Constitution as it is designed to work.   Central governments and their knee jerk ways of controlling just are not right.   That is why so many folks have left their birth right homes and moved to the US over the last couple hundred years.   We need to keep our Constitution and government run as it was designed.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Far too many of the folks wanting gun control want the US to do away with its current government style and go to the way way far left socialist government style where the central government has full power to control individual lives.   The US is not designed that way and our current government has been pushing far too much from the central government and it should mostly be from the states to make those decisions using the Constitution as it is designed to work.   Central governments and their knee jerk ways of controlling just are not right.   That is why so many folks have left their birth right homes and moved to the US over the last couple hundred years.   We need to keep our Constitution and government run as it was designed.



Oh Bob.... that darn old Far left socialist stuff.... so I take it you will be refusing your Medicare and sending back you SOCIAL security check?   And that you will repair the road in front of your house yourself.. and build your own power plant on you property.. dig your own sewers and burn all your garbage?


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## squatting dog (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh Bob.... that darn old Far left socialist stuff.... so I take it you will be refusing your Medicare and sending back you SOCIAL security check?   And that you will repair the road in front of your house yourself.. and build your own power plant on you property.. dig your own sewers and burn all your garbage?



Well, I'm not sure about Bob, but, I already burn my trash, maintain my road, dug my own septic system... I did work all my life and was forced to pay into a social security system that told me I would be covered by medicare and eligible for a SS check in retirement years. I fail to see that as "Far Left Socialist stuff". And as far as someone's earlier comment about preppers, I'm proud to say that the last time I was iced in for 13 days with no power or means of transportation, that I was Damn glad I was considered a prepper. Stayed snug and warm and well fed the whole time. Not all of us expect the end of times.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

squatting dog said:


> Well, I'm not sure about Bob, but, I already burn my trash, maintain my road, dug my own septic system... I did work all my life and was forced to pay into a social security system that told me I would be covered by medicare and eligible for a SS check in retirement years. I fail to see that as "Far Left Socialist stuff". And as far as someone's earlier comment about preppers, I'm proud to say that the last time I was iced in for 13 days with no power or means of transportation, that I was Damn glad I was considered a prepper. Stayed snug and warm and well fed the whole time. Not all of us expect the end of times.



Wow.... you should secede... form your own country and then ask for foreign aid... lol!!


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## squatting dog (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Wow.... you should secede... form your own country and then ask for foreign aid... lol!!



Wish I could... lol maybe pull a mouse that roared and see if I can't get some foreign aid. I am however real proud of the fact that the wife and I built our house from scratch... no outside help.  The road, the house, and the ice.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh Bob.... that darn old Far left socialist stuff.... so I take it you will be refusing your Medicare and sending back you SOCIAL security check?   And that you will repair the road in front of your house yourself.. and build your own power plant on you property.. dig your own sewers and burn all your garbage?



You have put up this nonsense about SS before and I said it was not government payments at all.   We all, that have worked for wages, had to put in some money for our SS return when we retire.   You just can not seem to understand that idea at all.   We are forced to buy our own SS a form of retirement insurance and our employers have also put into it.   A government ordered support for our retirement.   So far a pretty good idea.   At least even the least prepared for older life have a bit to rely on.   Medicare, well, something else as it is not something we decided to do but was forced into it by our government.   Actually, lots of good advice from others that say buy insurance to make sure some areas not covered by Medicare do get paid for and can happen with little or no cost.   So for many years now we have been paying for medical insurance to cover what Medicare did not cover.   So far I have had no high cost events that were not covered by Medicare and my own insurance.   A few years back I did get into the pharmacy blind spot of Medicare, but not for long.   That was one very dumb thing to do to people.   As they are pretty sick when they went into the pharmacy blind spot and really needed the medications.   At least now in Obama care, I believe they  have removed that blind spot and continue to cover the pharmacy needs.

Much of those things you posted about - roads etc. - are state and local government items, not central government things.   And our current Obama care could also be run by states and local to meet their needs, not just something a politician in DC thinks is best.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

Sorry Bob.... whether State run or Federal run any program that is for the common good.. or helps the entire population is SOCIALIST...  No one in this society can exist on their own.. without the utilities.. Roads... healthcare .. schools.. military protection etc..    You simply do not understand the word.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Sorry Bob.... whether State run or Federal run any program that is for the common good.. or helps the entire population is SOCIALIST...  No one in this society can exist on their own.. without the utilities.. Roads... healthcare .. schools.. military protection etc..    You simply do not understand the word.



Socialism is a form of government that many countries do use.   It is total central government and little else.   

Public schools are locally owned and run.   Private schools also.  And that covers most of them.   The only federal meddling is the standardized test.   Lots of folks seem to want to get rid of that too.

All these little things you speak of are parts of a republic doing its job.   We locally vote on doing things and if we don't like them we don't vote to support them any longer.   That is how a democracy/republic works.   

Until after WWII roads were all local or state.   Eisenhower started the interstate highways to help fix the massive unemployment problems and improve access to all parts of the states.   Unfortunately that has been bastardized to allow cities like Chicago to build their network of toll roads with federal funds by calling them interstates.   Why should travelers have to put quarters and such into their use.   

Utilities are privately owned in many parts of the US or city owned utilities.   Those are options not mandatory because of some government nonsense.

The US is not a socialist controlled country yet, but some think we should do so.  I hope we never really go that far left in the US.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Sorry Bob.... whether State run or Federal run any program that is for the common good.. or helps the entire population is SOCIALIST...  No one in this society can exist on their own.. without the utilities.. Roads... healthcare .. schools.. military protection etc..    You simply do not understand the word.



It drives me nuts when Americans refer to the word Socialist as something evil, or say it's the same as communist!


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> It drives me nuts when Americans refer to the word Socialist as something evil, or say it's the same as communist!



Well, enough of the evil countries do use socialism as their guiding light.   You are linked to England and much of what they do is socialist.   But since WWII they have dropped a lot to private that they once did themselves.   At one time much of their utilities were government run but now many parts have turned to private.   Same for some industries.    Still plenty of central control so I consider them to be more into socialism than the US is, or should be, if we want to continue to be considered to be a free country.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Well, enough of the evil countries do use socialism as their guiding light.   You are linked to England and much of what they do is socialist.   But since WWII they have dropped a lot to private that they once did themselves.   At one time much of their utilities were government run but now many parts have turned to private.   Same for some industries.    Still plenty of central control so I consider them to be more into socialism than the US is, or should be, if we want to continue to be considered to be a free country.



You really need to look up the difference between communism and socialism...  This country could not operate without socialistic programs and principles.  It does not mean we are not "Free"... It means that many things are too big for the individual to accomplish alone.. and that society as a whole has to band together for the common good..


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## Jackie22 (Oct 2, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> There's no point analysing individual particular shootings......there's way too many. It should be obvious that America is experiencing all these massacres because it's all too easy for the mentally ill and those with anger management issues or personality disorders to get their hands on firearms. If you're serious about remedying this situation  make it that to own a firearm you have to prove that you NEED one.



You are exactly right....it is the fact that guns are too easy and too available for those that want them....but as you can well see the excuses for these needless deaths are endless...


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## Ameriscot (Oct 2, 2015)

BobF said:


> Well, enough of the evil countries do use socialism as their guiding light.   You are linked to England and much of what they do is socialist.   But since WWII they have dropped a lot to private that they once did themselves.   At one time much of their utilities were government run but now many parts have turned to private.   Same for some industries.    Still plenty of central control so I consider them to be more into socialism than the US is, or should be, if we want to continue to be considered to be a free country.



Learn geography.  I live in Scotland in the UK, not England.  The result of privatising has made prices increase dramatically.  They should have left these alone.  

Shall we compare my NHS to the US healthcare system?  The US ranks 7 in healthcare and is the most expensive in the world.  The UK was rated number one.  I'll take the NHS over the US healthcare system any time!  No co-pays, no insurance costs, no worrying about having healthcare if uninsured.  The NHS is not a FOR-PROFIT system like the US.  

As for free countries...I know about and have visited countries that are not free, and the UK is certainly not one of them.   You are brainwashed.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 2, 2015)

Let's all understand this, bobf does not understand the difference between socialism and communism and he never will allow himself the simple education to learn that difference.  It is so obvious from his posts he does not intend to rethink the subject.


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## squatting dog (Oct 2, 2015)

Ok, people, here's the challenge... what kind of gun control would you recommend? Also, the government knows that there are at least 300 million guns already in America somewhere. Most would argue the number is roughly 3 times that amount.
Keep in mind that it is already against the law for a felon, domestic violence offender, dishonorable discharge person, and mental health patient to own or carry a gun. We already have mandatory background checks and waiting periods for handguns, and some long guns. I here lots of people saying we need more gun control, So, what is your answer to this dilemma?


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> You really need to look up the difference between communism and socialism...  This country could not operate without socialistic programs and principles.  It does not mean we are not "Free"... It means that many things are too big for the individual to accomplish alone.. and that society as a whole has to band together for the common good..



You are right for sure.   But even so, doing some thing from central does not make the US as socialist government.   Examples being:   Hoover Dam, built during a depression to create jobs and provide electricity to a large area of the US.   Rockets to Moon and possibly Mars.   Provide jobs to many industries but not one bit of permanence at all.   Centrally backed by the government but private industries are trying to be good enough to break the government leadership.  As I mentioned, the Interstate Highways system, more central government source for monies.   So far all these efforts are but money from the central government but mostly private companies doing the jobs.   So again, the socialized efforts are in the medical system, Medicare, Obama Care, I was going to say unemployment but that is state run and different from state to state.

Fortunately what the US does is way to independent from central control to say it is socialism.   It is not me that needs to learn what socialism is.

*Socialism*  is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership  and/or social control of the means of production and co-operative  management of the economy, as well as a political theory and movement  that aims at the establishment of such a system.
*Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Socialism*Wikipedia


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Learn geography.  I live in Scotland in the UK, not England.  The result of privatising has made prices increase dramatically.  They should have left these alone.
> 
> Shall we compare my NHS to the US healthcare system?  The US ranks 7 in healthcare and is the most expensive in the world.  The UK was rated number one.  I'll take the NHS over the US healthcare system any time!  No co-pays, no insurance costs, no worrying about having healthcare if uninsured.  The NHS is not a FOR-PROFIT system like the US.
> 
> As for free countries...I know about and have visited countries that are not free, and the UK is certainly not one of them.   You are brainwashed.



I never said UK was not free, that is your twist of what I posted.   Congratulations on having move to Scotland.   Were not the Scots also part of what was once called English Empire.   Things keep changing over their and for me it is hard to keep up with things.  Yes, lots of us dummies do still call the islands England.   

Why did you toss in the health care systems.   Did you know that not too many years back the health system over there was near a tragedy.   Horrible things were happening.   Insufficient hospital spaces.   Surgeries not done on weekends.   Shortage of staff, nurses and such.   Yes, and they have done much to change and improve.   Even now have special medical units operating independently, similar to in the US.

A news clip from their past:  about 2007

ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7198709.stm


Clegg attacks health 'inequality'

Nick Clegg
Mr Clegg wants to fix Britain's 'clapped out' political system


Nick Clegg
Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg has launched an attack on the way the NHS is run, describing it as a service in "crisis".  


"If only the National Health Service was a national health service.


"It is one of the most unequal health services in the modern world.  
 ..............................

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7135552.stm


Last Updated: Sunday, 9 December 2007, 20:30 GMT


Elderly to get personal care cash


Elderly woman
The elderly or their relatives will decide how the money is spent
Elderly people in England are to be given cash to fund their own social care, the health secretary has said.


From April, millions of pensioners will be handed control over how the money is spent, rather than relying on social workers to make the decisions.


Alan Johnson, who will officially announce the scheme on Monday, said it was a "radical transfer of power from the state to the public".


Younger disabled people could also be allocated a "personal budget" for care.


Councils will be given £520m over three years to improve services.


Everyone, irrespective of their illness or disability has the right to self-determination and maximum control over their own lives
Alan Johnson
Health Secretary


Individuals will be means-tested to assess their health and personal needs, and councils will then pay the cash into their bank accounts or those of nominated relatives.


According to the government, the changes are designed to create more competition among care agencies.


Mr Johnson said: "Our commitment that the majority of social care funding will be controlled by individuals, though personal budgets represents a radical transfer of power from the state to the public.


"Everyone, irrespective of their illness or disability has the right to self-determination and maximum control over their own lives."


'Real control'


Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the measures would give "real control" to individuals.


"These proposals for personal budgets will allow all those who would benefit from a personal budget to receive one, putting real control into the hands of those in care and their carers, leading to far more personal and responsive care."


This should only be the first step in a complete revolution in healthcare in which local communities hold health managers accountable through the ballot box
Nick Clegg
Liberal Democrat


Chairman of the Local Government Association Sir Simon Milton described the change as a "landmark agreement" and said it "should provide the foundation to give people independence, choice and dignity over their lives."


He added: "Given the pressures arising from an ageing population and rising expectations, we are pleased the government has also recognised that change comes at a price.


"The new grant for social care reform will go some way to enable councils to move towards a more personalised and preventative system of care."


But the plan did not go far enough for Liberal Democrat leadership contender Nick Clegg.


"This should only be the first step in a complete revolution in healthcare in which local communities hold health managers accountable through the ballot box, and every one of us is given real entitlements to high standard care wherever we live."


'Challenging'


However, campaign group Age Concern did welcome the scheme.


Director general Gordon Lishman said: "It is absolutely right to put older people's needs at the centre of the care system and to place a clear emphasis on preventive services.


"Older people and their families will continue to need information and support to help them negotiate the best care package at the best price with care providers.


"This will be challenging but we are sure it is something the government will want to address."
 .........................

With your comments, maybe these efforts really help the health system in England, or should I say UK.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 2, 2015)

Pointless to reply to you BobF.  British Empire, not English Empire.  Get a clue.  Stop talking about things you know nothing about.  NHS - socialist, which is the topic.  

Why I took you off ignore I don't know.  You're back on.


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Pointless to reply to you BobF.  British Empire, not English Empire.  Get a clue.  Stop talking about things you know nothing about.  NHS - socialist, which is the topic.
> 
> Why I took you off ignore I don't know.  You're back on.



Does that mean I don't have to listen to your snotty remarks any more.   You can not decide which country you like?   Sure surprises me as once the US wanted all to be loyal or else.  This modern way of not having to have loyalties is strange to say the least.

Did you read my post on the NHS?   Plenty of problems over the years.   And for those health care compares, they change all the time.   

I guess that is why we keep on taking all these walk in residents and ship more from overseas.   We don't need loyalties any more.   Just folks to show up and use our facilities and mercies.

I suppose that if I had time and money to travel the world it might may it easier to remember the UK history and constant changing of names.

Was it Scotland that just recently said they were leaving the UK, or was that the Irish, doesn't really matter as they just have no where to go if they leave UK.   Just more downhill problems.


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## QuickSilver (Oct 2, 2015)

Oh stop it Bob... why don't you EVER take the time to read and learn from others... You will soon discover that you are wrong on so many points.. Your mind is closed and for some reason you are refusing to open it.   We are never too old to learn...  keep that in mind


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## BobF (Oct 2, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Oh stop it Bob... why don't you EVER take the time to read and learn from others... You will soon discover that you are wrong on so many points.. Your mind is closed and for some reason you are refusing to open it.   We are never too old to learn...  keep that in mind



Speak of not reading, that seems to be the problem with too many folks on this forum.   That don't know where she is loyal to person did not read my post about health care or she would realize that I was posting history of the medical services over in UK territory from back in early 2005 when many folks in the hospitals were falling sick and dead.  I posted in 2007 of problems in the health system and also of changing the ways they were studying and considering changes to the system.   So if they now get a good rating, more power to them.   I was not putting the health system down.

She needs to read and understand what is said as earlier she claimed I said England /UK was evil.   I never said that and if she really read my post the following statements were about how they had ended lots of big government running of businesses and utilities and allowed private enterprises take the responsibility.   

If I was wealthy enough to spend all my time traveling from one country to another I might better remember the many names and times for countries I could have lived in.

If she never does another nasty note to me I appreciate that.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 3, 2015)

OMG, the TN Lt. Governor wants christians to arm themselves!  http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ith-should-consider-handgun-permits/73203888/

Along with this story about a gay boy who was kicked out of his private christian school for requesting he bring his boyfriend to the homecoming dance....and the stupid comments by a school official...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gay-teen-catholic-homecoming_5604c66fe4b0768126fd09d3
I'm now feeling a bit embarrassed that I chose to live in TN for ten years by choice.


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## Ameriscot (Oct 3, 2015)

BobF said:


> I suppose that if I had time and money to travel the world it might may it easier to remember the UK history and *constant *changing of names.



I must address this remark.  One does not have to travel to know the proper names of countries, especially those who are close allies of the US.  

As for the *constant *changing of names??!!  The Republic of Ireland has not been a part of the UK since 1922.  The proper name is the *United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland* and has been the official name since *1927. * How is this constant?!  Do you need a map to explain this?


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## BobF (Oct 3, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> I must address this remark.  One does not have to travel to know the proper names of countries, especially those who are close allies of the US.
> 
> As for the *constant *changing of names??!!  The Republic of Ireland has not been a part of the UK since 1922.  The proper name is the *United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland* and has been the official name since *1927. * How is this constant?!  Do you need a map to explain this?



That may be an official name but it is not at all constant to what the people over there seem to call it.   What about the Scottish folks, aren't they part of the mix?   Hopefully you will learn more about things as you grow older.   Your brilliance is only a temporary thing.

Wait till you are more broke or at least older.   The memory goes away and all things become more difficult to remember.   The UK, as you prefer to call it has changed more than you say.   Ireland is but a part of the entire mess.   I know others that have spent their lives in England and they never give me any ration about my stupidity or snotty posts for my mistakes.   One thing of the folks in the UK do have that you seem to lack is good manners and friendliness to others.   You check book must be all you love.

My son has lived in England and he liked it and the people.   I guess he never met you.   Fortunate for him.


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## BobF (Oct 3, 2015)

I did take a look at maps and found that England is a common work and not something evil or stupid as you imply when I used England.   Best get you smarts revised and become a real citizen of this world.   In other words, toss of your smart mouth attitudes and snotty posts.   We on this forum do not deserve such trash posts.




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* 


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More images for england map
[h=3]Map of England - Lonely Planet[/h]www.lonelyplanet.com/*maps*/europe/*england*/





Lonely Planet


_Map_ of _England_ and travel information about _England_ brought to you by Lonely Planet.



[h=3]England Map / Geography of England / Map of England ...[/h]www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/uke.htm




4 days ago - Printable _map_ of _England_ and info and links to _England_ facts, famous natives, landforms, latitude, longitude, _maps_, symbols, timeline and ...



[h=3]Google Maps[/h]https://*maps*.google.co.*uk*/




Google


Zoomable _maps_ focused on an address or post code. _Maps_ can be searched by business category. Also provides driving directions.



[h=3]UK Map | Map of UK (United Kingdom) - World Map[/h]www.*maps*ofworld.com/united-kingdom/




_UK Map_  for free use, download and print - Map of United Kingdom showing all  the regions of UK which includes England, Scotland, Wales, Northern  Ireland ...



[h=3]Maps of England - Counties, Regions, Towns & Cities[/h]www.picturesof*england*.com/*map*of*england*/




Maps of England and the United Kingdom. Plus _UK map_ of London, Cumbria, the Cotswolds at Pictures of England.com.



[h=3]Map of United Kingdom | MapQuest[/h]www.*map*quest.com/*maps*?country=GB




MapQuest


Our interactive _map_  of United Kingdom lets you view satellite images, streets and routes,  search for local govt and businesses and print or send travel  directions ...



[h=3]England Maps | Learn | FamilySearch.org[/h]https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/*England*_*Maps*




FamilySearch


Use FamilySearch's 1851 Jurisdiction _Map_, an interactive _map_ revealing the various levels of jurisdictions in each county in _England_ showing parishes, ...



[h=3]Historical Maps[/h]*maps*.familysearch.org/




FamilySearch


_England_ & Wales Jurisdictions 1851. _Map_ Type: Google, Bing. Country: _England_ 1851, United States. Click _map_ to select: Parish, County, Civil Registration ...



[h=3]Maps of England Britain and the UK[/h]www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.*uk*/customs/questions/*maps*.html






_Map_ showing mountain areas. Mountains Click here for a larger version of this _map_. Interactive _Map_ of the _UK_. _Map_ of _England_ showing main towns and cities









_  In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) at ChillingEffects.org. _
[h=3]Searches related to england map[/h]england map *cities*
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## Ameriscot (Oct 3, 2015)

BobF said:


> That may be an official name but it is not at all constant to what the people over there seem to call it.   What about the Scottish folks, aren't they part of the mix?   Hopefully you will learn more about things as you grow older.   Your brilliance is only a temporary thing.
> 
> Wait till you are more broke or at least older.   The memory goes away and all things become more difficult to remember.   The UK, as you prefer to call it has changed more than you say.   Ireland is but a part of the entire mess.   I know others that have spent their lives in England and they never give me any ration about my stupidity or snotty posts for my mistakes.   One thing of the folks in the UK do have that you seem to lack is good manners and friendliness to others.   You check book must be all you love.
> 
> My son has lived in England and he liked it and the people.   I guess he never met you.   Fortunate for him.



OMG do I have to spell it out to you.  It's not rocket science!  Scotland is in Great Britain as are England and Wales.  

Ireland is not and never has been part of Great Britain, only the UK.  Northern Ireland is part of the UK.  And the name used most often is The UK.  Great Britain or Britain is when you are referring this island that you keep wanting to refer to as England.  If your son lived in England you should have learned the difference.  I love how people think this nation is so small that we all know each other.  There are 60 million.  

And I'm not in danger of going broke, nor do I use a primitive checkbook.  

I am friendly to people who don't constantly spew throw together a bunch of rubbish and call it facts or bash things they know nothing about. 

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/


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## Ameriscot (Oct 3, 2015)

BobF said:


> I did take a look at maps and found that England is a common work and not something evil or stupid as you imply when I used England.   Best get you smarts revised and become a real citizen of this world.   In other words, toss of your smart mouth attitudes and snotty posts.   We on this forum do not deserve such trash posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you not even figure out your own posts???!!!!  Look at the map carefully.  England is one country in Great Britain and the UK.  Scotland is not in England.  Wales is not in England.  The entire island is not called England,


I give up.  I'll go bash my head against a wall now.


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## BobF (Oct 3, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> OMG do I have to spell it out to you.  It's not rocket science!  Scotland is in Great Britain as are England and Wales.
> 
> Ireland is not and never has been part of Great Britain, only the UK.  Northern Ireland is part of the UK.  And the name used most often is The UK.  Great Britain or Britain is when you are referring this island that you keep wanting to refer to as England.  If your son lived in England you should have learned the difference.  I love how people think this nation is so small that we all know each other.  There are 60 million.
> 
> ...



Great you are starting to explain yourself.   Lots of changes over there as you just posted.   England is not a bad word as you claimed.   UK is only a part of the region along with lots of others.   Much of that means little to us folks in the US.   In WWII we all fought with England to save their butts.   There wasn't any of you smart mouth activity then or until you started it recently.

Oh my goodness, we live on credit and no checkbooks.   So what is that supposed to mean to me?   I have credit cards too, but with not much to back them up.   If you are traveling and vacationing all around the world, there has to be something to back up your credit cards.   Not all of us have that pleasure fund at our disposal.

*I am friendly to people who don't constantly spew throw together a bunch  of rubbish and call it facts or bash things they know nothing about. 
* 
But you are the one making the judgements and accusations.   Not me.   I am just posting as I see things and the good old judger of right and wrong has called my use of England to be wrong for me to do and I must use UK instead.   Not true as I showed with the map listings using England over and over.   It is not a bad word but rather seems to be a historical generalization for a much larger area.

I know, you know everything and can say that to any and all.    Why don't you apply the no longer listening or responding button like you promised yesterday.    I know I won't mind if you no longer post and maybe others might enjoy the quieter times too.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 3, 2015)

I honestly know that what you think and post is true and everyone else is wrong bob but it is you who speaks gibberish.   Others try politely to inform you and you get nasty and insulting. Why not take a little break and maybe you'll be calmer in a few weeks?  Annie is a lady and a wonderful member and you talk to her like most wouldn't talk to a dog.  Knock it off.  Calm down. Rest...please.


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## BobF (Oct 3, 2015)

Jim, go back through this thread and see who started calling me dumb and stupid about using the term England in general statements.  My responses have been nothing but rebuttals to her nasty posts about my knowledge of England and all its neighbors.   She makes no sense with her superior attitude and deserves all the rebuttals I can put together.   Especially this last one where I found England to be used a lot on these web sites.

She may be nice to some but for me she has been not so nice and that gives me license to return the attitude.


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## AZ Jim (Oct 3, 2015)

She never insulted you but you were absolutely beyond the line with your insults to her.  Once and for all England is part of the United Kingdom.  Take a break from this Bob.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 3, 2015)

Thread closed.

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/13792-About-Political-Discussions


https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/8331-NOTICE-All-Members-Please-Read



> Posts that are abusive, hateful, insulting, personal attacks, sexually or racially offensive/inflammatory will not be tolerated. Any problem posts/threads will be removed, edited or closed without notice, and the user's account may be terminated.


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