# German scientists make paralyzed mice walk again



## mellowyellow (Jan 21, 2021)

(Reuters) - German researchers have enabled mice paralyzed after spinal cord injuries to walk again, re-establishing a neural link hitherto considered irreparable in mammals by using a designer protein injected into the brain……

https://www.reuters.com/article/sci...-make-paralyzed-mice-walk-again-idUSL1N2JW27I


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 21, 2021)

This is interesting, however, I object strongly to using animals in experiments.  It's cruel to injure something so they can try to fix it to benefit us.  The animals have no voice, they have no choice.  Bless the Beasts and the Children by the Carpenters.  I'm trying to insert a video, but it keeps messing up.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 21, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> This is interesting, however, I object strongly to using animals in experiments.  It's cruel to injure something so they can try to fix it to benefit us.  The animals have no voice, they have no choice.  Bless the Beasts and the Children by the Carpenters.  I'm trying to insert a video, but it keeps messing up.


I agree 100%, Phoenix, science experiments on helpless animals has always been a major sore spot with me.


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 21, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I agree 100%, Phoenix, science experiments on helpless animals has always been a major sore spot with me.


It's just wrong.  We are no more important than they are.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 21, 2021)

I disagree.

My son has never walked, never.  He can’t feed himself, he can’t sit, he can’t stand.  Grade 4 brain bleed at birth. I would experiment on every animal in the world, and kill them all if necessary, if it would mean my son would walk.

I am assuming the people who think experimenting on animals is wrong are vegans.  Cause if you won’t experiment on them, without their permission, I am assuming you would not eat them without their permission.

I am also assuming you would not take advantage of ANY of the medical benefits that have been gained by animal experimentation.  Like various eye surgeries, heart surgeries, in fact almost every single medical surgery was done on animals first.

I would say more, but I’ve made my point.


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 21, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I disagree.
> 
> My son has never walked, never.  He can’t feed himself, he can’t sit, he can’t stand.  Grade 4 brain bleed at birth. I would experiment on every animal in the world, and kill them all if necessary, if it would mean my son would walk.
> 
> ...


I am not a vegan.  Even if you eat a plant it was once alive.  I care about beings.  Animals are beings.  We are animals too.  We forget that.  Animal experimentation is cruel.  Cruel. Anything that has no say in what happens to them is being brutalized.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 21, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> I am not a vegan.  Even if you eat a plant it was once alive.  I care about beings.  Animals are beings.  We are animals too.  We forget that.  Animal experimentation is cruel.  Cruel. Anything that has no say in what happens to them is being brutalized.


Well, we can agree to disagree but if you think animals are humanly killed in slaughter houses, you should visit one.  I have not forgotten that animals are beings, I simply care more for my son or any other human being than I do for any animal.

Are you going to refuse medical treatment in protest that experiments on animals enabled a treatment that would save your life?-or your sight -or your ability to walk?  I doubt it.  Especially since you are not vegan.  Anyway we continue to agree to disagree and with that I am done.


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 22, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, we can agree to disagree but if you think animals are humanly killed in slaughter houses, you should visit one.  I have not forgotten that animals are beings, I simply care more for my son or any other human being than I do for any animal.
> 
> Are you going to refuse medical treatment in protest that experiments on animals enabled a treatment that would save your life?-or your sight -or your ability to walk?  I doubt it.  Especially since you are not vegan.  Anyway we continue to agree to disagree and with that I am done.


I know about slaughter houses.  I grew up on a farm.  I also know that grass, vegetables and trees have feelings.  You have no idea who I am.  Don't assign me feelings and decisions, ever.


----------



## win231 (Jan 22, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, we can agree to disagree but if you think animals are humanly killed in slaughter houses, you should visit one.  I have not forgotten that animals are beings, I simply care more for my son or any other human being than I do for any animal.
> 
> Are you going to refuse medical treatment in protest that experiments on animals enabled a treatment that would save your life?-or your sight -or your ability to walk?  I doubt it.  Especially since you are not vegan.  Anyway we continue to agree to disagree and with that I am done.


You are correct about animals in slaughterhouses.  However, you are mistaken about animal experimentation.  It has nothing to do with being a vegan or vegetarian.
Have any of the thousands of animals tortured & killed in experiments helped your son?  Cured any disease?  No.

Animal experimentation for drug approval has led to many nightmares & tragedies - such as Thalidomide, which was extensively tested on animals & found to have no harmful effects.  But when given to pregnant women, it caused their babies to be born with missing limbs - feet attached directly to hips, hands attached to shoulders without arms, etc.  One of many.
Using insulin from a pig's pancreas to treat diabetes was hailed as a big lifesaving "Breakthrough;" until the life-threatening allergic reactions, which led to synthetic insulin.
Rabbits are often used for medical experiments.  Rabbits constantly nibble on Death Cap mushrooms with no ill effects.  These are fatal to humans. 
An immune system reacts very differently to a disease that is artificially induced than one that occurs naturally.

Forcing hundreds of monkeys & dogs to inhale cigarette smoke nonstop to establish that smoking is not healthy?  Needs no explanation.
Shaving the skin off of rabbits & rats, then exposing them to UV light to determine the effectiveness of sunscreen?  Needs no explanation.
I won't post videos; they are unforgettable &  nightmarish - especially the screams.   
The real purpose of such experimentation is big research grants; in other words:  _Money. _


----------



## Murrmurr (Jan 22, 2021)

But this is fantastic news, though! I walk way better since my spinal surgery but still have issues. I'm excited about this!


----------



## RadishRose (Jan 22, 2021)

Yes, but can it Tango?


----------



## Murrmurr (Jan 22, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Yes, but can it Tango?


Maybe I will again someday  
Come to think of it, I've seen Mickey and Mini tango, so....


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 22, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, we can agree to disagree but if you think animals are humanly killed in slaughter houses, you should visit one.  I have not forgotten that animals are beings, I simply care more for my son or any other human being than I do for any animal.
> 
> Are you going to refuse medical treatment in protest that experiments on animals enabled a treatment that would save your life?-or your sight -or your ability to walk?  I doubt it.  Especially since you are not vegan.  Anyway we continue to agree to disagree and with that I am done.


I know about slaughter houses.  I grew up on a farm.  I actually know a lot of things.  I also know that grass, vegetables and trees have feelings.  You have no idea who I am.  Don't assign me feelings, ever.


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 22, 2021)

Some how my last post got in here twice.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 22, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> I know about slaughter houses.  I grew up on a farm.  I actually know a lot of things.  I also know that grass, vegetables and trees have feelings.  You have no idea who I am.  Don't assign me feelings, ever.


Hmm, I didn’t think I assigned you any feelings before but you seem angry now.  That’s not an assignment it’s an observation.  I do not care who you really are.  But if you are threatening me, or trying to threaten me, you will have to be clearer, but I still won’t care.  I actually know a lot of things too.

Forum rules prevent me from saying what I know about you.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 22, 2021)

win231 said:


> You are correct about animals in slaughterhouses.  However, you are mistaken about animal experimentation.  It has nothing to do with being a vegan or vegetarian.
> Have any of the thousands of animals tortured & killed in experiments helped your son?  Cured any disease?  No.
> 
> Animal experimentation for drug approval has led to many nightmares & tragedies - such as Thalidomide, which was extensively tested on animals & found to have no harmful effects.  But when given to pregnant women, it caused their babies to be born with missing limbs - feet attached directly to hips, hands attached to shoulders without arms, etc.  One of many.
> ...


The purpose of everything is money


----------



## win231 (Jan 22, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, I didn’t think I assigned you any feelings before but you seem angry now.  That’s not an assignment it’s an observation.  I do not care who you really are.  But if you are threatening me, or trying to threaten me, you will have to be clearer, but I still won’t care.  I actually know a lot of things too.
> 
> Forum rules prevent me from saying what I know about you.


----------



## Phoenix (Jan 22, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, I didn’t think I assigned you any feelings before but you seem angry now.  That’s not an assignment it’s an observation.  I do not care who you really are.  But if you are threatening me, or trying to threaten me, you will have to be clearer, but I still won’t care.  I actually know a lot of things too.
> 
> Forum rules prevent me from saying what I know about you.


I am not angry.  I am not threatening you.  Again you assign me feelings I do not have.  I guess it makes you feel better to do that.  You don't know anything about me. I do hope you find a way to be happy and find peace.


----------



## mellowyellow (Jan 22, 2021)

I was so excited when I read this, to think that all the people who are suffering from spinal cord injuries through sport, traffic accidents etc stuck in a wheelchair - this remarkable discovery gives them hope.  I find it hard to believe that some people are worrying about test animals when they should be singing the praises of these remarkable scientists who could end the misery for millions.  Aneeda 72,  you are my hero, a woman with guts who when faced with two choices - took the job on with love and determination.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 22, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I was so excited when I read this, to think that all the people who are suffering from spinal cord injuries through sport, traffic accidents etc stuck in a wheelchair - this remarkable discovery gives them hope.  *I find it hard to believe that some people are worrying about test animals when they should be singing the praises of these remarkable scientists who could end the misery for millions.*  Aneeda 72,  you are my hero, a woman with guts who when faced with two choices - took the job on with love and determination.


As much as I try to, Mellow, it's just so bitter-sweet for me knowing the suffering that lab and test animals are put through, some suffering excruciating pain and abuse.


----------



## Knight (Jan 22, 2021)

Maybe this is where religion works .

Mankind is supposed to dominate over animals. Exactly how that domination is supposed to work I don't know. What I do know is using animals to experiment on beats how the Germans experimented on Jews.
In order to cure disease & other forms of illness in humans. We can use humans or animals for testing.
I vote for use of animals.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> As much as I try to, Mellow, it's just so bitter-sweet for me knowing the suffering that lab and test animals are put through, some suffering excruciating pain and abuse.


It is bitter sweet especially when the higher functioning animals that we love are involved.  When we had our dog put down, because of grand mal seizures, we were asked to donate him for drug experiments for seizure control we refused.

Even though our son also has seizures, we drew that line because we loved our dog as well as our son.  Obviously, some choices are impossible when love is involved. But we became accidentally aware he was not put down a few months ago.  . We do not know his final fate, we were told he went to a dog haven.  But they would not have accidentally called us.

Maybe he did go on to help our son, I know he would have “volunteered“.  He was a great dog.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> It is bitter sweet especially when the higher functioning animals that we love are involved.  *When we had our dog put down, because of grand mal seizures, we were asked to donate him for drug experiments for seizure control we refused.*
> 
> Even though our son also has seizures, we drew that line because we loved our dog as well as our son.  Obviously, some choices are impossible when love is involved. *But we became accidentally aware he was not put down a few months ago.  . We do not know his final fate, we were told he went to a dog haven.  But they would not have accidentally called us.*
> 
> Maybe he did go on to help our son, I know he would have “volunteered“.  He was a great dog.


This is why I would never leave a pet with the powers to be to have the animal gently put down. 

Dear husband and I would be right there, right beside the pet comforting it and seeing to it that our beloved family pet exited this world with care and love.

I can't help but think you failed your pet by not being there for it at the end, Aneeda.

The main reason why we don't have a family pet, is because neither hubby or myself can stomach the loss, so more likely than not, we will never own a pet.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> This is why I would never leave a pet with the powers to be to have the animal gently put down.
> 
> Dear husband and I would be right there, right beside the pet comforting it and seeing to it that our beloved family pet exited this world with care and love.
> 
> ...


Actually the only place you can have a pet put down here is at the county shelter which is a no kill shelter, and they have to observe that the dog is having grand mail seizures.  You are not allowed to watch.  We checked back, were told they saw the seizures, and because he was only 2 he was sent to a special medical care facility.

After the phone call, we realized that probably meant a certain place that tries difference drugs on dogs that have seizures.  A bad thing?  Maybe, but maybe not.  He seized for five minutes, lost control of his bowels, almost broke his back as he bent backwards, and didn’t know where he was for about 30 minutes.  Was still dazed after that.

Seizure medication in dogs, lessens the seizures but doesn’t control them.  I think any dogs with these issues should be put down.  But perhaps, if he did go to the medical facility, they could find a drug that would help him, help other dogs, and help people.

No, I didn’t fail him no matter what his fate.  I did what I thought was the right thing.  The fact that it worked out different was fate.  Things often work out different than we plan, that’s not failure, that’s life, and, perhaps, he had another shot at life.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Actually the only place you can have a pet put down here is at the county shelter which is a no kill shelter, and they have to observe that the dog is having grand mail seizures.  You are not allowed to watch.  We checked back, were told they saw the seizures, and because he was only 2 he was sent to a special medical care facility.
> 
> After the phone call, we realized that probably meant a certain place that tries difference drugs on dogs that have seizures.  A bad thing?  Maybe, but maybe not.  He seized for five minutes, lost control of his bowels, almost broke his back as he bent backwards, and didn’t know where he was for about 30 minutes.  Was still dazed after that.
> 
> ...


I don't share your sentiment.

The only thing I see is a family pet that was cast off before it's time, which prompts me to question how much the poor thing missed you.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I don't share your sentiment.
> 
> The only thing I see is a family pet that was cast off before it's time, which prompts me to question how much the poor thing missed you.


Well, we agree to disagree.  My son has grand mail seizures, and other types of seizures.  Apparently you’ve never seen a grand mail seizure, if you ever do, then you will understand why we wanted the dog put down.  

But maybe not, you might prefer to put an animal through that kind of suffering, I do not.  Watching a human being, a child, your child, go through it is enough.  There are plenty of TV documentaries on child with seizures.

Why don’t you watch a few of them, gain some education, and then let me know if you’d like a loved one, dog or human, to endure such agony.  There are children who have hundreds of seizures a day-ignorance is bliss or so I’ve heard.


----------



## win231 (Jan 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> This is why I would never leave a pet with the powers to be to have the animal gently put down.
> 
> Dear husband and I would be right there, right beside the pet comforting it and seeing to it that our beloved family pet exited this world with care and love.
> 
> ...


That's what I did & the Vet offered it.  It did cost $250.00, but it was well worth it.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 23, 2021)

win231 said:


> That's what I did & the Vet offered it.  It did cost $250.00, but it was well worth it.


Yes I would have got it done at the vet if I could have.  On the other side, you can, in certain counties, shoot your dog.  I suppose we could have had our son do that.  And we paid a 100 dollars to have him down at the shelter.  They just did not do it.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes I would have got it done at the vet if I could have.  *On the other side, you can, in certain counties, shoot your dog.*  I suppose we could have had our son do that.  And we paid a 100 dollars to have him down at the shelter.  They just did not do it.


I'm sickened, absolutely sickened to the core whenever I hear of a pet owner putting their pets down by shooting them.

Few things are more sickening to me than that.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes I would have got it done at the vet if I could have.  On the other side, you can, in certain counties, shoot your dog.  I suppose we could have had our son do that.  *And we paid a 100 dollars to have him down at the shelter*.  They just did not do it.


Did you seek your money back?


----------



## Murrmurr (Jan 23, 2021)

The sad reality is that the FDA requires animal testing in medical research. 
I think for cosmetic manufacturing it's no longer required or even allowed.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> Did you seek your money back?


No, of course not, the money is used to support the abandoned animals.  We have a lot of those.  My dog was, wherever he was, was fed, and warm, and receiving medical treatment even if it was treatment I did not approve of in an research center.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I don't share your sentiment.
> 
> The only thing I see is a family pet that was cast off before it's time, which prompts me to question how much the poor thing missed you.


   If a person feels comfortable repeatedly rehoming their dogs once they reach two years or so, and beginning  again with a new puppy, it stands to reason they have a different perspective.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> If a person feels comfortable repeatedly rehoming their dogs once they reach two years or so, and beginning  again with a new puppy, it stands to reason they have a different perspective.


I suppose my attitude is also due to the hundreds of foster children I had over 30 years.  You learn to love and let go, but the attachment is not as strong as it is with your own children or you could not do it.  Although even your own children leave eventually, although you still see them.

I came to LOVE raising children, puppies, veggies in the garden.  Then seeing them all off to a good place.  (But I only ate the veggies, @Shalimar @Aunt Marg I didn’t eat the children or the puppies.  ).

Hopefully Bella will be with me until I die.  She will certainly be the last puppy I raise and she is a huge challenge of a puppy.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I suppose my attitude is also due to the hundreds of foster children I had over 30 years.  You learn to love and let go, but the attachment is not as strong as it is with your own children or you could not do it.  Although even your own children leave eventually, although you still see them.
> 
> I came to LOVE raising children, puppies, veggies in the garden.  Then seeing them all off to a good place.  (But I only ate the veggies, @Shalimar @Aunt Marg I didn’t eat the children or the puppies.  ).
> 
> Hopefully Bella will be with me until I die.  She will certainly be the last puppy I raise and she is a huge challenge of a puppy.





Aneeda72 said:


> Aneeda, I certainly understand and commend you for your efforts in raising children, yours and foster, and understanding the need to let go when it is time. However, part of owning  a dog is being willing to provide them with a forever home. (Unlike children, they don’t outgrow their need for us to take  care of them, physically and emotionally.) That is the sacred covenant between pet and owner. If one is unable to make that commitment, fostering would be a wonderful alternative.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

They all get a forever home and the new owners get a well trained dog which they probably don’t have time to train.  A trainer in my area trains puppies to a lesser extent than I do, and sells them for 5000 dollars.  I don’t do that.

I know the “forever” home is a popular theme now, but it’s not realistic.  Peoples lives change, animals come and go.  After all when we marry we swear to stay marry for forever.  . How awful would it be if we had to do that?  There is no such thing as forever for anyone.

Dogs are not people, although Americans seem to want them to be.  Dogs are overbred, sold as cute puppies.  The majority of people throw those puppies in the back yard, and when they get tired of picking up the poop, off they go to the shelter to be killed because they are untrained.  Reality.  I like puppies.

In any event, we agree to disagree.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said: "_However, part of owning a dog is being willing to provide them with a forever home. (Unlike children, they don’t outgrow their need for us to take care of them, physically and emotionally.) That is the sacred covenant between pet and owner_".

I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They all get a forever home and the new owners get a well trained dog which they probably don’t have time to train.  A trainer in my area trains puppies to a lesser extent than I do, and sells them for 5000 dollars.  I don’t do that.
> 
> I know the “forever” home is a popular theme now, but it’s not realistic.  Peoples lives change, animals come and go.  After all when we marry we swear to stay marry for forever.  . How awful would it be if we had to do that?  There is no such thing as forever for anyone.
> 
> ...


  Hmm. Things must be very different in your neck of the woods. I don’t know of anyone who tosses their puppy in the back yard, only at a later date to be sent away and condemned to death at a shelter. Of course, my dogs have

always been shelter dogs. Somehow, I don’t believe we Canucks are often better pet parents than most, merely because our pets are usually family, and treated as such, rather than temporary residents. Lol. Yes, best to agree to 

disagree. I am reminded that Mahatma  Gandhi once said you could tell a lot about a country by how it treated its animals. Initially, he was referring to animals raised for food, but when pressed, extended his statement to include pets also.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 26, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They all get a forever home and the new owners get a well trained dog which they probably don’t have time to train.  A trainer in my area trains puppies to a lesser extent than I do, and sells them for 5000 dollars.  I don’t do that.
> 
> I know the “forever” home is a popular theme now, but it’s not realistic.  Peoples lives change, animals come and go.  After all when we marry we swear to stay marry for forever.  . How awful would it be if we had to do that?  There is no such thing as forever for anyone.
> 
> ...


You're right, dogs are not people, they're miles better than people, in that they are more dedicated, loving, and trusting.

As for things being forever, if dear husband and I do ever bite on getting a puppy or dog, trust me, it will be forever for the life of that puppy or dog.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm. Things must be very different in your neck of the woods. I don’t know of anyone who tosses their puppy in the back yard, only at a later date to be sent away and condemned to death at a shelter. Of course, my dogs have always been shelter dogs. Somehow, I don’t believe Canucks are better pet parents than most. Lol. Yes, best to agree to disagree.


Well, why don’t you google how many dogs are in shelters in the USA, how many shelters are still kill shelters, how many large, hmm, shelters there are that take in unadoptable dogs and how many dogs are in them, how many places it is legal to shoot an unwanted dog, how sled dogs are raised and treated in the USA and Canada , and what’s the number one dog dropped off at shelters.  Not to mention puppy farms, the big kennels, service dog organizations, hobby breeds, back yard breeders and on and on.

Try educating yourself and them come and lecture me on the blight of dogs in the USA and elsewhere, especially sled dogs in Canada who live their lives tied up, individually, to mostly wooden crates in the cold and are fed a horrendous diet and frequently starve to death.  See how many puppies are shot or starve.  Watch the documentaries.

As to you don’t know anyone who tosses anyone their puppy into the backyard, what does that mean?  It simply means you don't know.  I could go on.  Since you are so interested in criticizing me, before you do so any more, educate yourself as to the blight of dogs in your country.

I rarely get angry, but I had difficult medical news yesterday, and I am apparently still upset.  But what I wrote is still true.  @Shalimar please do not PM me, not interested.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> You're right, dogs are not people, they're miles better than people, in that they are more dedicated, loving, and trusting.
> 
> As for things being forever, if dear husband and I do ever bite on getting a puppy or dog, trust me, it will be forever for the life of that puppy or dog.


. So you have never even rescued a dog, which I have done, paid for medical treatment to have the dog become adoptable, cured it of being extremely aggressive towards men and aggressive in general, trained it, and re-home it.  Whatever.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, why don’t you google how many dogs are in shelters in the USA, how many shelters are still kill shelters, how many large, hmm, shelters there are that take in unadoptable dogs and how many dogs are in them, how many places it is legal to shoot an unwanted dog, how sled dogs are raised and treated in the USA and Canada , and what’s the number one dog dropped off at shelters.  Not to mention puppy farms, the big kennels, service dog organizations, hobby breeds, back yard breeders and on and on.
> 
> Try educating yourself and them come and lecture me on the blight of dogs in the USA and elsewhere, especially sled dogs in Canada who live their lives tied up, individually, to mostly wooden crates in the cold and are fed a horrendous diet and frequently starve to death.  See how many puppies are shot or starve.  Watch the documentaries.
> 
> ...


 Wow, just wow. No worries, I shall not pm you. Why would I wish to subject myself to your anger, and apparent inability to hear opinions other than your own re certain subjects without being angry, assuming you are being 

attacked, and retaliating with nasty personal remarks? As for difficult medical news, I am sorry if yours is such, but my own PTSD flare up and the reason behind it is no picnic either.  I spent a week in hospital, just returned home yesterday. It is less than two weeks since my vet killed himself in front of me.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

I went and goggled so many sites-sled dog abuse-in Canada and the great while north.  Educate yourselves.  I know a lot about dogs because I have educated myself, because I am interested.  It is easy to talk on subjects and make judgments, easier for some than others, when you know nothing about what’s it’s like to be paralyzed or have a loved one who is paralyzed.

I have seen too many children, hidden away in special schools, transported on special buses, kept in special places, and treated in special hospitals so the mass majority of so called normal people can proclaim how horrible it is to experiment on animals while taking full advantage of the medical breakthroughs that those experiments bring.  I call them hypocrites.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Wow, just wow. No worries, I shall not pm you. Why would I wish to subject myself to your anger, and apparent inability to hear opinions other than your own re certain subjects without being angry, assuming you are being
> 
> attacked, and retaliating with nasty personal remarks? As for difficult medical news, I am sorry if yours is such, but my own PTSD flare up and the reason behind it is no picnic either.  I spent a week in hospital, just returned home yesterday. It is less than two weeks since my vet killed himself in front of me.


I am going to edit this post.  Yes, I knew you would attack me for my suggesting you educate yourself about something as you have done that in the past.  And brought up how educated you are and I am not.

What I said has nothing to do with being your being a victim of PTSD or your recent experience, or hospitalization.  I am talking about dogs.  Why bring up your personal problems here, it has nothing to do with the subject.

You are not the only one struggling on the forum.

My anger is towards my recent news from my doctor and has nothing to do with you, but explains my impatient with certain comments you made through lack of knowledge about the treatment of dogs.   My post has to do with dogs.

I asked you to educated yourself on the blight of dogs before you make further comments.  Whether you do this or not-is up to you.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 26, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I went and goggled so many sites-sled dog abuse-in Canada and the great while north.  Educate yourselves.  I know a lot about dogs because I have educated myself, because I am interested.  It is easy to talk on subjects and make judgments, easier for some than others, when you know nothing about what’s it’s like to be paralyzed or have a loved one who is paralyzed.
> 
> I have seen too many children, hidden away in special schools, transported on special buses, kept in special places, and treated in special hospitals so the mass majority of so called normal people can proclaim how horrible it is to experiment on animals while taking full advantage of the medical breakthroughs that those experiments bring.  I call them hypocrites.


 One final comment, you have no idea what my life experiences entail. As many members here know, I spent many years as a child sex slave, rented out by my mother, I have seen children beaten, broken, even paralysed, and killed. Perhaps your education is more limited than you realise. Assumptions are not facts. None of us hold the patent on suffering.


----------



## win231 (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> One final comment, you have no idea what my life experiences entail. As many members here know, I spent many years as a child sex slave, rented out by my mother, I have seen children beaten, broken, even paralysed, and killed. Perhaps your education is more limited than you realise. Assumptions are not facts. None of us hold the patent on suffering.


My mom had the patent on suffering.
In fact, on her headstone, it says _"See?"_


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> One final comment, you have no idea what my life experiences entail. As many members here know, I spent many years as a child sex slave, rented out by my mother, I have seen children beaten, broken, even paralysed, and killed. Perhaps your education is more limited than you realise. Assumptions are not facts. None of us hold the patent on suffering.


What has this to do with my request that you educate yourself about the treatment of dogs in your country?  And yes, you have talked about this before, and yes I’ve read what you wrote, and yes none of us know the full experiences each other has had. 

Since I did foster care for children for 30 years I think I am educated about child abuse, up close and personal.  And yes I‘ve sat in therapy sessions with those children.  I know that process as well.  And yes I’ve fostered children who have been in psychiatric hospitals, and children that have been sexually abused, and children that have sexually abused other children.

What has this got to do with dogs?-abused sled dogs in Canada?  Animals used for experiments?


----------



## StarSong (Jan 26, 2021)

win231 said:


> That's what I did & the Vet offered it.  It did cost $250.00, but it was well worth it.


We did the same,@win231.  My husband stayed with our dog until her last breath.  My husband's voice and touch were the last she experienced.


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 26, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> This is interesting, however, I object strongly to using animals in experiments.  It's cruel to injure something so they can try to fix it to benefit us.  The animals have no voice, they have no choice.  Bless the Beasts and the Children by the Carpenters.  I'm trying to insert a video, but it keeps messing up.


I'm so glad you said that! I sometimes wonder whether these scientists invent things to research in order to keep themselves employed. ....And do their children have little furry creatures as pets?


----------



## Rosemarie (Jan 26, 2021)

Knight said:


> Maybe this is where religion works .
> 
> Mankind is supposed to dominate over animals. Exactly how that domination is supposed to work I don't know. What I do know is using animals to experiment on beats how the Germans experimented on Jews.
> In order to cure disease & other forms of illness in humans. We can use humans or animals for testing.
> I vote for use of animals.


I interprete this passage as being' I give you responsibility for animals'. Too many people think we have the right to do as we please with animals...that they exist purely for our benefit.


----------



## StarSong (Jan 26, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I interprete this passage as being' I give you responsibility for animals'. Too many people think we have the right to do as we please with animals...that they exist purely for our benefit.


I so agree with you on this, @Rosemarie.  We should be much better stewards of the planet and the creatures on it than we have been.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 26, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> I'm sickened, absolutely sickened to the core whenever I hear of a pet owner putting their pets down by shooting them.
> 
> Few things are more sickening to me than that.


When I was a child , my best friend, brother  in law shot their dog because they didn’t want to pay the money to have the dog put down.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 26, 2021)

Keesha said:


> When I was a child , my best friend, brother  in law shot their dog because they didn’t want to pay the money to have the dog put down.


If there's one thing I've learned in life, Keesha, some things (living or not) mean absolutely nothing to some people.

Mere disposable things they are.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 26, 2021)

StarSong said:


> We did the same,@win231.  My husband stayed with our dog until her last breath.  My husband's voice and touch were the last she experienced.


Absolutely. A dog Is man’s/ woman’s best friend who would risk their life for their owner. They dedicate their entire life to us. The least thing we can do is comfort them in their last moments and let them know how much we love them . What brave loyal dogs they are and how we will never ever forget them

It’s heart wrenching but dogs are as much family to some as human children are to others.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jan 26, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Absolutely. A dog Is man’s/ woman’s best friend who would risk their life for their owner. They dedicate their entire life to us. The least thing we can do is comfort them in their last moments and let them know how much we love them . What brave loyal dogs they are and how we will never ever forget them.
> 
> It’s heart wrenching but *dogs are as much family to some as human children*.


That would be us, Keesha.


----------



## fmdog44 (Jan 26, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> It's just wrong.  We are no more important than they are.


Next time you have a heart attack call a mouse.


----------



## Keesha (Jan 26, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> That would be us, Keesha.


That’s comforting to know.


----------



## Knight (Jan 26, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I interprete this passage as being' I give you responsibility for animals'. Too many people think we have the right to do as we please with animals...that they exist purely for our benefit.


How do you interpret this?

Quote from my post
Exactly how that domination is supposed to work I don't know.

For those that post that use of animals to provide mankind with solutions to medical issues is wrong.  I hope you are pure vegan. Otherwise it's a little hypocritical to know  all kinds of animals are slaughtered in order for you to feed yourself.

Then there is the leap from animals used for life saving, to household pets ? How many keep enough lab rats in their home to equal the weight of lets say a medium sized dog?


----------



## Knight (Feb 3, 2021)

Thanks for the love emoji Aneeda

Never did get a reply to post #58.

Maybe if  enough people got together to complain about all the life saving vaccines & other medical advancements made possible by using animals they could re institute those ills and then get together to solve how to produce the same cures without animals.


----------



## Knight (Feb 3, 2021)

deleted double post


----------



## Aneeda72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Knight said:


> Thanks for the love emoji Aneeda
> 
> Never did get a reply to post #58.
> 
> Maybe if  enough people got together to complain about all the life saving vaccines & other medical advancements made possible by using animals they could re institute those ills and then get together to solve how to produce the same cures without animals.


It hypocritical of people, IMO, to claim they hate experiments on animals and yet take advantage of every single medical surgery, prescription drug, and other medical procedures that can be offered due to the experiments conducted on animals.

Not to mention the people on this thread who make comments and then put MAKE UP on every dang day.  Dogs, and other animals, that went blind so they could wear eye shadow.  I don’t wear makeup, btw, never have, never will.  People who have leather seats in their cars, I could go on, but won’t.

Then, of course, there are those that happily sit down to a meat or fish dinner with never a thought for the animal that provided their meals.  

Also, the question of forever families for dogs.  Dogs are not children.  In this country we can’t even get people to adopt children in foster care; we can not get people to give a home to homeless vets, we can’t get decent housing for the elderly. Yet people are worried about dogs being in a forever family.  And some of those people have never even owned a dog.  

I am a veteran, I have adopted disabled children, I have done foster care, and I have rescued a few dogs and made their lives better.  But people who have done none of these things think they can judge me.  WOW.  Judge away, those who do nothing but care for themselves.


----------



## Keesha (Feb 4, 2021)

Who takes advantage of every medical surgery, prescription drug and any of medical procedures that are offered due to experiments done on animals?

Not all make up and or bath and body products are tested on animals. The ones that are the cheapest usually are. The ones that aren’t are often much more expensive. They are usually labelled ‘no experiments have been made testing these products.

Not all meats come from the slaughter house. There are many free range sources of food where animals are treated very well. Experiments have shown that animals treated this way have a higher vibration and eating these types of foods also raise the human vibration but once again, the cost of these foods are expensive. Then of course there are vegan eaters who completely respect all living creatures. There are MANY of them.


Dogs are not children but it’s nobody’s business how much people love their dogs. We opted to own dogs and don’t have any of our own children and frankly, I couldn’t give care less what others think nor do I personally care who adopted or had their own children.
Everybody makes choices that suite them and we all are allowed to express opinions even if others don’t like them.

Hypocritical? 
I doubt there’s one member here who isn’t hypocritical.


----------



## win231 (Feb 4, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Who takes advantage of every medical surgery, prescription drug and any of medical procedures that are offered due to experiments done on animals?
> 
> Not all make up and or bath and body products are tested on animals. The ones that are the cheapest usually are. The ones that aren’t are often much more expensive. They are usually labelled ‘no experiments have been made testing these products.
> 
> ...


I'm not hypocritical.  And I never swear, dammit.


----------



## Keesha (Feb 4, 2021)

win231 said:


> I'm not hypocritical.  And I never swear, dammit.


Nope. Me neither! Even when I stub my toe or break a bone. 
My post is actually a needless unnecessary post.
My point being we are ALL judgmental to the point of being hypocritical. Our beliefs just ring more true cause we’ve spent more time milling them over in our minds and our minds aren’t always right. Our minds are super biased.
At these thats how I feel.

Anyway I’m going to get off this topic since I don’t do well with serious. I’ll try to stick with light and funny or beautiful.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Feb 5, 2021)

win231 said:


> You are correct about animals in slaughterhouses.  However, you are mistaken about animal experimentation.  It has nothing to do with being a vegan or vegetarian.
> Have any of the thousands of animals tortured & killed in experiments helped your son?  Cured any disease?  No.
> 
> Animal experimentation for drug approval has led to many nightmares & tragedies - such as Thalidomide, which was extensively tested on animals & found to have no harmful effects.  But when given to pregnant women, it caused their babies to be born with missing limbs - feet attached directly to hips, hands attached to shoulders without arms, etc.  One of many.
> ...


You have done your research...I wish I had done the same many years ago. Thalidomide was a drug banned in Canada and taken off the shelves for unpublished reasons. When living in Germany in early 1960s, and was pregnant with my first baby, I was dispensed 'Thalidomide' to curb morning sickness. They were prescribed to me through the Military...they had not been removed from their shelves. The rest is history, when I was seven months pregnant, I was informed that my baby would die at birth and she did. She was labelled as a 'Thalidomide baby'. Needless to say I was not allowed to talk about this. I had no voice. I found out why at the special graveyard where she is buried in Germany. This graveyard consisted of all little white crosses depicting Canadian babies that had died due to ??? Needless to say, I am totally against morning sickness pills or such. I now have three healthy children...born in Canada. 
On another note, we have many horses...and many of them are rescues before they are terminated and sold for meat.


----------



## Ruby Rose (Feb 5, 2021)

I hope I said that right about the horses...we do not terminate them and sell them for meat...we save them, help them, feed them and above all love them until their day is done. Some are quite old now.


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 5, 2021)

Ruby Rose said:


> You have done your research...I wish I had done the same many years ago. Thalidomide was a drug banned in Canada and taken off the shelves for unpublished reasons. When living in Germany in early 1960s, and was pregnant with my first baby, I was dispensed 'Thalidomide' to curb morning sickness. They were prescribed to me through the Military...they had not been removed from their shelves. The rest is history, when I was seven months pregnant, I was informed that my baby would die at birth and she did. She was labelled as a 'Thalidomide baby'. Needless to say I was not allowed to talk about this. I had no voice. I found out why at the special graveyard where she is buried in Germany. This graveyard consisted of all little white crosses depicting Canadian babies that had died due to ??? Needless to say, I am totally against morning sickness pills or such. I now have three healthy children...born in Canada.
> On another note, we have many horses...and many of them are rescues before they are terminated and sold for meat.


OMG Ruby Rose, that's an horrific story, so glad you have three healthy children.  Years ago, I knew a happy young woman who was a product of Thalidomide, she had no arms, and as I watched her change her baby's cloth nappy with her feet, I marvelled at her ingenuity.  I wonder if they used animals to discover it was so dangerous.


----------



## Knight (Feb 5, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> OMG Ruby Rose, that's an horrific story, so glad you have three healthy children.  Years ago, I knew a happy young woman who was a product of Thalidomide, she had no arms, and as I watched her change her baby's cloth nappy with her feet, I marvelled at her ingenuity.  I wonder if they used animals to discover it was so dangerous.


The Thalidomide issue was created in Germany over 50 years ago. When birth defects started the cause was traced to the German mfg.

Nearly every medical breakthrough involves animal testing and research.
If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.

Many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are now either preventable, treatable or have been eradicated altogether. Immunizations against polio, diphtheria, mumps, rubella and hepatitis save countless lives and the survival rates for many major diseases are at an all-time high thanks to the discovery of new drugs and the design of sophisticated medical devices and surgical procedures.  In the coming years, a universal influenza vaccine may be a reality, as well as a vaccine to end the HIV/AIDS pandemic. 

Animal testing and research saves lives
Since 1900, the average human life span in the United States has increased by almost 30 years. In 2015, infant mortality in the U.S. – a key indicator of the nation’s health – was measured at 5.87 deaths per 1,000 live births compared to 55 deaths per 1,000 live births in 1935.

https://fbresearch.org/medical-advances/

Yes there are horror stories concerning use of animals but I've not read about those that favor no animal use for testing come up with an alternative.


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 5, 2021)

Knight said:


> The Thalidomide issue was created in Germany over 50 years ago. When birth defects started the cause was traced to the German mfg.
> 
> Nearly every medical breakthrough involves animal testing and research.
> If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.
> ...





Knight said:


> The Thalidomide issue was created in Germany over 50 years ago. When birth defects started the cause was traced to the German mfg.
> 
> Nearly every medical breakthrough involves animal testing and research.
> If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefitted from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.
> ...


Thank you Knight for that information, yes it's unfortunate that we need to use animals but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.


----------



## Youngatheart (Feb 9, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> It's just wrong.  We are no more important than they are.


What if you had mouse infestation in your home?


----------



## Phoenix (Feb 9, 2021)

I've had mice eat up my cars' engines.  That doesn't change anything about how I feel.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Feb 10, 2021)

Phoenix said:


> I've had mice eat up my cars' engines.  That doesn't change anything about how I feel.


Well, if you get deer mice in your house or elsewhere you won’t need to worry about how you feel, you will feel like you are dying, cause you be.


----------

