# Best Idea Yet!



## Don M. (Jan 12, 2015)

Once in a Great While, something comes out of Washington that makes Good Sense.  President Obama is working on a plan that would be of Great Help to millions of our young, and Most of our Businesses and Industries.  He is proposing a move towards free or subsidized Community College education programs for our many of our High School Grads.  This is and Excellent Idea, IMO.

So many of our young, and their families are saddled with excessive debt by going through our Traditional Universities....only to find that the degree they earn is worth little more than the paper it is written on.  Meanwhile, our business are always looking for employees who have some Practical skills in jobs that are in demand.  Community Colleges can meet this demand...and at far less expense to everyone than most universities charge.  In far too many cases, our traditional universities have become little more than large corporations where Profit is the most important factor.  

This proposal deserves some serious consideration....both from our people...AND, our politicians.  It might even, if enacted, begin to reverse the stagnation of our dwindling Middle Class.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/obama-free-community-college_n_6446866.html


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## 123Testing (Jan 12, 2015)

I respectfully disagree, because there is no such thing as FREE! 'Free' means, somebody has to pay for it, and that somebody is the U.S. Taxpayer. The tax system is already overburdened. Free Community College isn't going to do a damn thing, when students disrespect the already free high school opportunities, laid before them.

I have a serious problem with High School graduates reading at a 10th grade level, math skills even worse. High School grads should be able to pass the exact same test Immigrants are required to take for our citizenship.

Worse yet, are those that choose to drop out of high school.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 12, 2015)

I agree with 123. Giving too many people a free ride is one of the reasons we have 18 trillion dollars debt.


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## 123Testing (Jan 12, 2015)

Our current public school system is what failed us! Rather than offering even more 'freebie' education. How about we FIX the high school system?

I graduated from a private Catholic High School, back in 1981. Let me tell ya... the difference between that school and the local public school was already obvious. The public system has been deteriorating for at least 30 yrs!


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## 123Testing (Jan 12, 2015)

I would also like to add, working as a basic level grunt worker of society, I am surrounded by the younger generation (20s'30s). What sickens me is their lack of 'work ethic'. They want to stand around, staring at their cell phones, cruising FB, while on the job, and EXPECT a paycheck for this?

I can't come to work today... the roads aren't perfect, my neck hurts, but I really want to go to my boyfriend's family get-together.

I really don't want the US Taxpayer to be burdened with the additional costs to finance a bunch of young adults, who really don't want to work! Free Community College will just turn them into professional students, who really don't care if they get a D in class, or an A, because their FB friends are important.


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## Jackie22 (Jan 12, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Once in a Great While, something comes out of Washington that makes Good Sense.  President Obama is working on a plan that would be of Great Help to millions of our young, and Most of our Businesses and Industries.  He is proposing a move towards free or subsidized Community College education programs for our many of our High School Grads.  This is and Excellent Idea, IMO.
> 
> So many of our young, and their families are saddled with excessive debt by going through our Traditional Universities....only to find that the degree they earn is worth little more than the paper it is written on.  Meanwhile, our business are always looking for employees who have some Practical skills in jobs that are in demand.  Community Colleges can meet this demand...and at far less expense to everyone than most universities charge.  In far too many cases, our traditional universities have become little more than large corporations where Profit is the most important factor.
> 
> ...



I agree, Don,.....and a few less fighter jets would go a long way in covering the cost.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Once in a Great While, something comes out of Washington that makes Good Sense.  President Obama is working on a plan that would be of Great Help to millions of our young, and Most of our Businesses and Industries.  He is proposing a move towards free or subsidized Community College education programs for our many of our High School Grads.  This is and Excellent Idea, IMO.
> 
> So many of our young, and their families are saddled with excessive debt by going through our Traditional Universities....only to find that the degree they earn is worth little more than the paper it is written on.  Meanwhile, our business are always looking for employees who have some Practical skills in jobs that are in demand.  Community Colleges can meet this demand...and at far less expense to everyone than most universities charge.  In far too many cases, our traditional universities have become little more than large corporations where Profit is the most important factor.
> 
> ...



I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea..   Most European countries already offer subsidized education..  We apparently don't think as much about our young people and their futures as Europe does..  It's high time.     With education becoming more and more out of reach to the average family.. and young people are having to take on huge college loans..  this is wonderful...  at least the first two years will be taken care of.

I also understand that a 2.5 grade average is needed to qualify and to stay in the program..   Many community colleges offer 2 year associate degrees in trades like heating and air conditioning, hotel industry, culinary skills  as well as other trades..   So this is a GREAT thing for those that may not want to go on to a 4 year college and still get some useful training to support themselves.


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## Lon (Jan 12, 2015)

My concern is that the two year AA degree will become what a high school diploma now is worth. The average high school education is not much better today than what the 8th grade education is.

What needs to be addressed is education itself and not just free availability to it.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

123Testing said:


> I would also like to add, working as a basic level grunt worker of society, I am surrounded by the younger generation (20s'30s). What sickens me is their lack of 'work ethic'. They want to stand around, staring at their cell phones, cruising FB, while on the job, and EXPECT a paycheck for this?
> 
> I can't come to work today... the roads aren't perfect, my neck hurts, but I really want to go to my boyfriend's family get-together.
> 
> I really don't want the US Taxpayer to be burdened with the additional costs to finance a bunch of young adults, who really don't want to work! Free Community College will just turn them into professional students, who really don't care if they get a D in class, or an A, because their FB friends are important.



Who the Heck are you to paint everyone with the same brush?   AND IMO... we SHOULD subsidize education.  It's an investment in the middle class..


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## Son_of_Perdition (Jan 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Who the Heck are you to paint everyone with the same brush?   AND IMO... we SHOULD subsidize education.  It's an investment in the middle class..



Do you mean the same middle class that will be the future recipients of our welfare system because they can no longer make a liveable wage even if they are able to get a job in their chosen field?  I don't believe that higher education should be a right but a privilege that shouldn't be given to someone who has no interest in learning and advancing.  It shouldn't be a free ride, but then again I think it should be made available and affordable to those underprivileged that really want to better themselves.

 Lawyers are graduating in droves and the lack of real legal opportunities in law have forced many into working for the system that exploits the lower and middle class, hustling to use the courts and legal avenues to make a living.  Medical practitioners are refusing care for someone in need and uninsured to cater to the few that can afford coverage.  Malpractice lawsuits are a way of life for many lawyers suing doctors and hospitals so they can drive their Beemers.  Doctors are 'Leaving Las Vegas' because of a better chance to make a living without the hassle and cost to obtain malpractice insurance in Nevada.

 Trades are being replaced by automation and off shore manufacturing, That's why a plumber who makes house calls can make more than a medical professional.  We will evolve to a point when our children will be born with two thumbs on each hand so they can text faster.  They only field I see as unlimited is an optometrist, more children will require corrected vision because they spent their formative years staring at a 4 inch screen.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

Son_of_Perdition said:


> Do you mean the same middle class that will be the future recipients of our welfare system because they can no longer make a liveable wage even if they are able to get a job in their chosen field?  I don't believe that higher education should be a right but a privilege that shouldn't be given to someone who has no interest in learning and advancing.  It shouldn't be a free ride, but then again I think it should be made available and affordable to those underprivileged that really want to better themselves.
> 
> Lawyers are graduating in droves and the lack of real legal opportunities in law have forced many into working for the system that exploits the lower and middle class, hustling to use the courts and legal avenues to make a living.  Medical practitioners are refusing care for someone in need and uninsured to cater to the few that can afford coverage.  Malpractice lawsuits are a way of life for many lawyers suing doctors and hospitals so they can drive their Beemers.  Doctors are 'Leaving Las Vegas' because of a better chance to make a living without the hassle and cost to obtain malpractice insurance in Nevada.
> 
> Trades are being replaced by automation and off shore manufacturing, That's why a plumber who makes house calls can make more than a medical professional.  We will evolve to a point when our children will be born with two thumbs on each hand so they can text faster.  They only field I see as unlimited is an optometrist, more children will require corrected vision because they spent their formative years staring at a 4 inch screen.



Wait...... where did anyone say that people will be FORCED into going to 2 years of college?   It's not a mandatory program... it's only for people that want it and that have maintained a minimum GPA of 2.5 or above.   AND as I stated... 2 year community colleges have many programs and certificates geared at trades.. They are not all headed for a 4 year degree..  I'm not sure why people would be against this.   Why would YOU be against someone getting a 2 year degree in a trade?  I don't believe there are any  more "trade schools" around...

Here are some common programs offered by junior colleges

http://education-portal.com/2_year_college.html

Automotive technology 
Computer-aided drafting and design 
Fire science 
Construction technology 
Office management 
Culinary arts Health information technology


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## rt3 (Jan 12, 2015)

I like it, sounds like a good way to create a rotating labor force for the rich financed by guess who.


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## Josiah (Jan 12, 2015)

I like QuickSilver's characterization as an investment in the middle class. I'm all for it.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

I would beef up funding for community colleges as to lower the costs but a 'free' college education? Do more degrees actually mean more available jobs, more jobs, a decrease in foreign outsourcing because of the so called lack of domestic skills or doesn't mean a hill of beans adjacent to a pile of hay.


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## jujube (Jan 12, 2015)

I WANT these young people getting a good education!  I WANT them to be able to get good paying jobs and pay the taxes that keep my social security payments coming!  Win-Win situation in my books.

The high school from which I graduated in 1965 now has a "university high school" program.  The kids in that program graduate from high school with an AA degree from a highly respected college in the state.  They have a 100% acceptance rate to 4-year colleges and universities.  That means there are kids graduating with their bachelors degrees at 19 or 20 and getting jobs and PAYING TAXES!!  Woo-hoo!

Not everybody is college material, though, and I'd love to see some high schools go back to being "specialized" training facilities....let's provide the education that lets kids graduate from high school and immediately be able to go into plumbing, auto repair, HVAC, culinary, etc.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

jujube said:


> I WANT these young people getting a good education!  I WANT them to be able to get good paying jobs and pay the taxes that keep my social security payments coming!  Win-Win situation in my books.
> 
> The high school from which I graduated in 1965 now has a "university high school" program.  The kids in that program graduate from high school with an AA degree from a highly respected college in the state.  They have a 100% acceptance rate to 4-year colleges and universities.  That means there are kids graduating with their bachelors degrees at 19 or 20 and getting jobs and PAYING TAXES!!  Woo-hoo!
> 
> Not everybody is college material, though, and I'd love to see some high schools go back to being "specialized" training facilities....let's provide the education that lets kids graduate from high school and immediately be able to go into plumbing, auto repair, HVAC, culinary, etc.



The current workforce is not about "a" college degree. It's about specialists ie hardcore skills or expertise in a certain area.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...rads-are-jobless-or-underemployed-how/256237/

Unemployment or under employment has been a growing issue amongst college graduates.

Decades past a college graduate/degree ment something and a degree holder had preference if for no other reason they were considered trainable/could learn. And college was the only way many things were taught or learned. It's different now. I do think there should be more vocational training. If you do it right there should be some over lap ie a lot of the same physics and math.

A degree does not mean a thing if there is no one hiring or hiring in your specialty. College degrees do not  equal more jobs. Perhaps better paying jobs or more pay over the course of one's working life but it is not an economic stimulator other than banks/people that make student loans and staff at a college.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

So what's your plan?


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So what's your plan?




To make college or post secondary education more affordable I would beef up the funding of community colleges to make them even more affordable. If nothing else if more students got at least half of their college paid at a community college rate that would leave more  money to train or retrain for a job actually in demand.

The entire country could be college educated and that won't amount to squat for jobs if we are still outsourcing or importing cheaper labor. More education is good. Does more education lead to more jobs, not necessarily. Job security, better paying jobs, additional and/or new jobs are all different things.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

What point you seem to be missing is that Community colleges train for a lot more than Degreed jobs..  They offer certificates in numerous trade skills..  That would be paid for.. I'm not sure why you are against that..   Sometimes even "more affordable" is beyond the reach of many.   I don't know why we can't invest in our youth..  particularly those that have the ability and desire.


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Jan 12, 2015)

As QS said, this program isn't a mandatory extension of the K-12 current cirriculum.  This will be a means through which those who have the work ethic, desire, and ability can get two years of training in a specific field.  This will make many coming into our job force much better qualified for their career choice.  And, instead of telling our kids they will never amount to anything if they don't run up tens of thousands of dollars of student loans to secure a college degree... it will allow our youth to become productive without the baggage of the loans.
Certainly, many graduating from today's public school system cannot read, write, or speak.  That fault is NOT to be totally and completely dropped in the lap of the public school system.  The youth's own desire to excell... the youth's parental support... there are many places to share the fault.  OTOH, there are millions of extremely capable young people graduating from our public schools.  As I've mentioned before, all three of our kids went to public schools and not one of them went to college straight out of high school.  ALL three have excelled in very productive careers.  Shoot... they may all be retired with nice pension packages before I retire!!!!

Immediately, the right wing pundits began spouting the negatives of this approach to bettering the education of our youth.  I agree that the biggest single hurdle is how to fund a program such as this.  At this point in our political clime, we have a majority in Congress who would like to eliminate any federal funding of education and pass it off to the states.  A teacher might use the work "evolution" in front of his/her students.  A teacher might suggest there actually ARE different lifestyles that exist in our hometown communities.  It would be such a move forward for our Country if our elected officials could work together to find a means of helping our kids get better educations.  This would help dramatically keeping us competitive with other countries who do pride themselves in how well their children can perform in the workplace.

I'd gladly pay a couple cents more in gas tax to know the money was going to better educate our kids in science and technology.  Better educated, they may well find new ways to make our vehicles more fuel efficient and find more productive means of using alternate fuel sources.  I'd gladly pay a couple cents more on my utility bill to know kids could be trained to be better operators of our power generation facilites, our water and wastewater plants, and our stormwater containment systems.  I'd gladly pay a few cents more in doctor's office visits to know we were training kids who would be better equipped to handle the plethora of geriatrics increasing each day... of which I am one!!!!

Let's work together to make the lives of our children better so they can improve our own existence.  Would it not be better to say "How can we?" instead of "That'll never work!".............


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> What point you seem to be missing is that Community colleges train for a lot more than Degreed jobs..  They offer certificates in numerous trade skills..  That would be paid for.. I'm not sure why you are against that..   Sometimes even "more affordable" is beyond the reach of many.   I don't know why we can't invest in our youth..  particularly those that have the ability and desire.



I thought I said "post secondary education" which usually includes vocational training. I did not say I was against vocational training. That's one reason I'm for beefing up the community college system. Also said things like 'train or retrain for a job actually in demand" which can include the trades. I guess I should have spelled it out for you.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> As QS said, this program isn't a mandatory extension of the K-12 current cirriculum.  This will be a means through which those who have the work ethic, desire, and ability can get two years of training in a specific field.  This will make many coming into our job force much better qualified for their career choice.  And, instead of telling our kids they will never amount to anything if they don't run up tens of thousands of dollars of student loans to secure a college degree... it will allow our youth to become productive without the baggage of the loans.
> Certainly, many graduating from today's public school system cannot read, write, or speak.  That fault is NOT to be totally and completely dropped in the lap of the public school system.  The youth's own desire to excell... the youth's parental support... there are many places to share the fault.  OTOH, there are millions of extremely capable young people graduating from our public schools.  As I've mentioned before, all three of our kids went to public schools and not one of them went to college straight out of high school.  ALL three have excelled in very productive careers.  Shoot... they may all be retired with nice pension packages before I retire!!!!
> 
> Immediately, the right wing pundits began spouting the negatives of this approach to bettering the education of our youth.  I agree that the biggest single hurdle is how to fund a program such as this.  At this point in our political clime, we have a majority in Congress who would like to eliminate any federal funding of education and pass it off to the states.  A teacher might use the work "evolution" in front of his/her students.  A teacher might suggest there actually ARE different lifestyles that exist in our hometown communities.  It would be such a move forward for our Country if our elected officials could work together to find a means of helping our kids get better educations.  This would help dramatically keeping us competitive with other countries who do pride themselves in how well their children can perform in the workplace.
> ...



The problem with many public schools/systems is that they try to make specialists out of students before they even graduated by "tracking them" or putting them into a certain skill level by the ninth or 10th grade ie this is what WE think YOU would want to do. So kids futures are decided by the ninth grade and that's late in some respects. It wasn't until I got to college that I had a teacher who could actually teach math or science. Too many high school teachers in particular wind up teaching subjects they were good at it or liked but never really learned the nuts and bolts of their subject. In high school or in any subject actually it was just do extra work if you were behind or had trouble. In college the professors could teach a subject in detail, they could trouble shoot. I know high school teachers who bragged they taught advanced placement and all they had to do was hand them a text book. Need not worry about subject details the public school system because your "teaching" degree is supposed to get through all that. Granted there are issues a public teacher must face that a private school doesn't but it still comes down to subject knowledge.

It all comes back to being well rounded with a base of knowledge that should be able to start you in any career path. I know high school grads that can write better memos and letter than a 4 year college grad because they actually learned something. When I see adults using a calculator to find 10% of a number I'm done. Just reading, writing and basic math(had a college calculus teacher say most math comes down to fractions). The basics, not video games, movies, tv shows, pop culture etc, the basic traditional academic subjects not even at an advanced level.

There are too many issues in the public school system today for just extra money to cure the problem. And yes motivation and determination are part of the students responsibility.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 12, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> I thought I said "post secondary education" which usually includes vocational training. I did not say I was against vocational training. That's one reason I'm for beefing up the community college system. Also said things like 'train or retrain for a job actually in demand" which can include the trades. I guess I should have spelled it out for you.



So now please spell out why you are against young people getting this for free if they qualify and keep up their grades..


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## WhatInThe (Jan 12, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> So now please spell out why you are against young people getting this for free if they qualify and keep up their grades..



For starters college or any post high school training is still an option. One can still go into a trade, trade union, business, a job, military or other training & schools of their choice. More importantly as with most government/third party funded programs inflation and/or higher taxes will follow. The student and school will have fewer incentives for good grades but the student and school will want to keep that government money flowing. It will be come another extension of high school including rammed through students. I've also seen this in some private trade schools in particular mass producing incompetent product because keeping the product in their system had priority for cash reasons. This should be just one of many programs or possible solutions used in combination to improve education in America.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hmmm, well the GI Bill was a big success in building an educated work force so why not just skip serving in the military to provide government support...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 13, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hmmm, well the GI Bill was a big success in building an educated work force so why not just skip serving in the military to provide government support...



I don't think anyone is advocating the goverment "support"  anyone... just give everyone.. not just ex-military the chance for some training.

It just beats the hell out of me why some people are so dead set against average people getting anything... yet will defend to the death corporate subsidies and tax breaks for the wealthy. Somehow that's justifiable...but woe betide any average joe getting anything they aren't.  So afraid that one penny of their tax dollar goes to help anyone..  It's sad really..   yet... so many say they are "Christains"..


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## rkunsaw (Jan 13, 2015)

Community colleges aren't expensive. People paying their own way appreciate the opportunity to learn much more than those getting a free ride. Many trade have apprenticeship programs where people can get paid as they learn.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 13, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hmmm, well the GI Bill was a big success in building an educated work force so why not just skip serving in the military to provide government support...



The GI bill was an earned benefit through military service used by adults.


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## 123Testing (Jan 13, 2015)

It's Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, discussing College options and costs. It's 41 minutes long. Pay attention to the part, were he talks about 'work ethic'.

I have plenty of history with the family farm life. I judge everybody and everything according to the farm. The cows, pigs, chickens don't care that tomorrow is a Holiday, and you want the day off. The cows still need to be milked. The livestock doesn't care that you have a cold, or the weather isn't perfect. They still need to be fed, and stalls cleaned. 

Thank Gawd, my 4 sons (aged 25-31) had the priviledge of being raised within this environment. They are all 'non college' educated workers, and they all make great money, with fantastic benefits. How did they do that without a college education? It's called WORK ETHIC! And the American Culture is currently declining in Work Ethic! If you don't 'see' this, clearly our micro-cocoons of life differ.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 13, 2015)

123Testing said:


> It's Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs, discussing College options and costs. It's 41 minutes long. Pay attention to the part, were he talks about 'work ethic'.
> 
> I have plenty of history with the family farm life. I judge everybody and everything according to the farm. The cows, pigs, chickens don't care that tomorrow is a Holiday, and you want the day off. The cows still need to be milked. The livestock doesn't care that you have a cold, or the weather isn't perfect. They still need to be fed, and stalls cleaned.
> 
> Thank Gawd, my 4 sons (aged 25-31) had the priviledge of being raised within this environment. They are all 'non college' educated workers, and they all make great money, with fantastic benefits. How did they do that without a college education? It's called WORK ETHIC! And the American Culture is currently declining in Work Ethic! If you don't 'see' this, clearly our micro-cocoons of life differ.




I think work ethic is "a" problem in the US economy/workforce. Some the employee's fault and the rest society's fault. The day off analogy is an excellent example of beggars cannot be a chooser. As someone who worked many a holiday for several different companies I got a little tired oh we have to work Thanksgiving or Christmas-for pay. Part of the reason the American employee, job applicant or worker is choosey is that there are several generations brought up that you should have and will have a "career", you will be doing what you love the rest of your life-which is a croc. But this leads to every JOB applicant thinking about every job in terms of career and not a job for pay. They can't tough it out. You also have several generations of job applicants that were never in the military or lived on/in a traditional campus setting including a cafeteria/meal plan that didn't allow you to run to a McDonalds when they wanted. There is little or no discipline and patience with many job applicants. Technology further exacerbates the instant gratification society.

No patience, discipline, persistence, gutting it out equals NO JOB.


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## rporter610 (Jan 13, 2015)

I think  we need to consider adopting the European system of education, which tests all students at age 14 and then directs each student into a further educational program suited to his/her talents an abilities, such as skilled trades, consumer/retail services,or university if the person has the intellect and interest in higher learning.  As a former teacher, I can testify that about half the students I had when they were college freshmen had no business going to a liberal arts college.  They were not interested in liberal arts.  They wanted to learn how to be bankers, business owners, and bureaucrats.  But no one told them that a liberal arts college is not designed to prepare people for jobs.  That's what vocational and technical institutions are for.  Where I live now, there are two vo-techs within 50 miles, whose programs for plumbing and refrigeration, electrician, LPN, auto repair, and other technical careers are filled and have waiting lists.  These are good  jobs but they do not require a person to study literature, music, or foreign languages, as a person has to do in a liberal arts college.  I think it's a matter of high school vocational counselors having disappeared.  No one is helping today's high school students to evaluate their abilities and talents so that they can pick appropriate careers suited to their abilities and temperaments.

As to the funding, the U.S. has a history of offering free public education.  Whether it is 12 grades or 14, doesn't make much difference to me, as long as the education is effective and prepares students for their work life and civil responsibility.  

Just my two cents' worth.  Good discussion!


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## 123Testing (Jan 13, 2015)

Ya know what.... I wasn't too happy when QuickSilver decided to attack me. Afterall... I'm a newbie on this site, and I *was* trying to tread lightly.

My 1st born son, is 31yrs old. He is a Haz Mat Trucker. He did it WITHOUT additional education. How did he do it? Simple! He hooked up with a bunch of other truckers that were willing to give him some OTR experience. Make a long story short..... once he got the OTR required for State tests.... and took the test.... guess what? HE GOT HIS LICENSE!

Once he got his OTR trucker license.... he spent even more time with other truckers.... along with some really brief *online* classes.... and he was able to get CERTIFIED AS A HAZ MAT TRUCKER!

I got another son..... joined the local Volunteer Fireman dept. The local Volunteer Fireman dept AGREED to PAY FOR HIS EMT CLASSES! Once that was done and out of the way.... the local Ambulance Service AGREED to pay for his PARAMEDIC classes!

That son has since married a Mortician. Egads! they have wayyyyy to much in common. He delivers them, and she does... well.... I won't finish that joke.

I'm just offering insight to the TRUE 'middle class' world.


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## 123Testing (Jan 13, 2015)

I HAD a brother-in-law that was a construction worker. He built average houses for a living. This was very good skills to teach his up and coming son. That kid is now in his 30's. Guess what THAT KID now does? He now works for construction companies that build million dollar homes!!! All without a COLLEGE EDUCATION!

I'm sick and tired of the mind set, that.... you NEED a college education to make ends meet. NO YOU DON"T. I've seen plumbers get rich. I've seen the self-sufficient, jack of all trades, get rich.

You just NEED to find your 'spot' in life.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm sorry you felt attacked.... It was not my intention..   Debating and disagreeing with someones opinion or comments is not an attack.


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## rkunsaw (Jan 14, 2015)

I went through a 4 year apprenticeship that included on the job training and college and in house classes. I had to take a cut in pay to get into the program, but the company paid my expenses. I retired from that company 39 years later.

During those years I knew a lot of very smart people, some had college degrees and some never went to college at all. I also knew a lot of idiots, some had college degrees and some never went to college.


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## Don M. (Jan 14, 2015)

When I graduated from High School, that VietNam mess was shifting into high gear, and I could feel the Draft Board breathing on my neck.  Being a devout coward, and having no desire to slog through the jungle with a rifle, I went into the USAF, and took a bunch of tests which qualified me for a year of intense electronics training.  After the good training and experience there, I was able to get a job fixing computers, and forged a good career that equaled anything I might have gotten with most college degrees.  
There are dozens of career paths which afford a decent lifestyle without going through college.  Trade schools and community colleges and union apprenticeships...AND Military Service, can open a lot of doors.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 14, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> I went through a 4 year apprenticeship that included on the job training and college and in house classes. I had to take a cut in pay to get into the program, but the company paid my expenses. I retired from that company 39 years later.
> 
> During those years I knew a lot of very smart people, some had college degrees and some never went to college at all. I also knew a lot of idiots, some had college degrees and some never went to college.



This has been my experience. In some respects college has been outdated for decades because there are many more ways to get the information that used to be only taught in college and many areas need specialists.

 Besides work ethic one of the things I noticed over the course of time those who succeed, do well or simply seem to know/understand their stuff is that they master the details of their job on a daily basis. They are constantly trying to learn more and/or up grade their skills. And by mastering the details of their job they can make it easier on themselves and deal with many a problem many so called professionals can't.


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## Son_of_Perdition (Jan 14, 2015)

I went to school with 2 brothers, oldest was book smart, went to college and developed into a successful system analyst.  The youngest was my age, likeable but struggled in school.  He was not destined for higher education, went to work for a local plumber, became a journeyman and very capable tradesman.  I knew his mother and was asking her one day how are they doing.  Her response, the analyst is doing great makes great money, but can't get ahead, he's always borrowing money from the plumber, who makes better money but can handle his.


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