# Shooting at First Baptist chuch in TX



## chic (Nov 5, 2017)

There was a shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs? TX. just outside of San Antonio TX. Population 630. Two dozen people are dead/injured. The shooter is dead. It's unknown if this is a hate crime or an act of terrorism. 

How terribly sad for all in this small town.


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## RadishRose (Nov 5, 2017)

We can't go to school, biking, the movies, concerts, shopping centers, not even to church without fearing for our lives. Not just here, but all over the globe. This world has gone mad!

Texas Church Shooting Leaves at Least 25 Dead, Official SaysNew York Times 16m ago


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## Cap'n Mike (Nov 5, 2017)

How absolutely awful, once again my prayers are with all the families affected. 

As reported here in the UK.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/several-people-shot-texas-church-witnesses-tell-cbs-190759978.html


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## chic (Nov 5, 2017)

Update: 20 are dead and two dozen injured. It's unknown if automatic weapons were used. This is breaking news.


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## applecruncher (Nov 5, 2017)

A gunman opened fire inside a rural Texas church on Sunday, killing about 25 people and injuring at least another 10, officials said. 

 "Approximately 25 people" were deceased, including the gunman, following the shooting at First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackett told NBC News.


 There was no information regarding the motivation behind the shooting, he added.


 A single shooter walked into the church and opened fire, Wilson County Commissioner Albert Gamez Jr. said earlier Sunday.


(more)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/several-casualties-reported-texas-church-shooting-n817751


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## hollydolly (Nov 5, 2017)

They are saying 27 dead including the Pastor and his wife, and 24 injured.

The little church only has a congregation of around 50, so it looks like the gunman who was dressed in Combats.. managed to shoot every single parishioner... 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html


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## RadishRose (Nov 5, 2017)

A 6 year old boy was shot 4 times and is now in surgery. Prayers for this little boy.


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## hearlady (Nov 5, 2017)

The world has gone crazy.


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## chic (Nov 5, 2017)

The 14 year old daughter of the minister and his wife is also among the slain. It's scary to think people can't even go to church anymore without risking their lives.


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## RadishRose (Nov 5, 2017)

The killer's name is Devin Patrick Kelly, deceased. I'm hearing 30 injured.


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> We can't go to school, biking, the movies, concerts, shopping centers, not even to church without fearing for our lives. Not just here, but all over the globe. This world has gone mad!
> 
> Texas Church Shooting Leaves at Least 25 Dead, Official SaysNew York Times 16m ago



Not all over the globe. That statement is a deflection.
Our last massacre was in 1996, after which we tightened up our gun ownership laws.
We haven't had one since then.

https://www.news-mail.com.au/news/nation-bullets-worst-5-mass-shootings-us/3258087/

How many days since  Las Vegas? Was it even one month?

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/32262-Next-massacre-coming-up


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## SeaBreeze (Nov 5, 2017)

Very sad to hear about this tragedy, may the dead rest in peace and sympathy to the families of the victims.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 5, 2017)

I heard 26 have been killed.  Another senseless killings!


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2017)

Already false information is being disseminated about the shooter. While the police have not yet commented on the motive, be aware that the story going around that he is a communist member of Antifa is quite false.

https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/


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## Lara (Nov 5, 2017)

SeaBreeze said:


> Very sad to hear about this tragedy, may the dead rest in peace and sympathy to the families of the victims.


 What SeaBreeze said...*sniff sniff*


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## Warrigal (Nov 5, 2017)

There seems to be a pattern here.

From Twitter, not fact checked.



> Aurora: AR-15
> Orlando: AR-15
> Las Vegas: AR-15
> Sandy Hook: AR-15
> ...



I wonder what the tally was for each one?

In case anyone thinks that I am being hard hearted, I post this tweet, which is something I agree with 100%:



> Posted by a US Senator who shall be anonymous to avoid politicising:
> Keeping all harmed in Sutherland Springs in our prayers and grateful for our brave first responders on the scene.
> 
> The response from a member of the public:
> People killed WHILE praying deserve more than prayers alone. They deserve a Senator with the everyday courage to put lives before NRA cash.


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## chic (Nov 6, 2017)

He was dishonorably discharged from the military in 2012 for assaulting his wife and child. Why did he pass a background check for purchasing a weapon?


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## hollydolly (Nov 6, 2017)

Just another nut by the sounds of it.... 

The Texas church shooter who mercilessly  shot dead 26 people and injured 24 others was an 'outcast' who 'preached  his atheism' online.
Former classmates  say Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, who stormed First Baptist Church of  Sutherland Springs in Texas and opened fire on Sunday, was 'creepy',  'crazy' and 'weird'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html
​



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html


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## Cap'n Mike (Nov 6, 2017)

That being the case hollydolly, why was he allowed to own guns???


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Already false information is being disseminated about the shooter. While the police have not yet commented on the motive, be aware that the story going around that he is a communist member of Antifa is quite false.
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/



Unfortunately Snopes is no more privy to info on the shooter than anyone else at this point.

It would be the ultimate disinformation tactic to disavow that he was Antifa. It wouldn't fit into the social commentary in our society at this point if it were true.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

chic said:


> He was dishonorably discharged from the military in 2012 for assaulting his wife and child. Why did he pass a background check for purchasing a weapon?



I think the answer to that is that the background checks are inadequate. How long does it take to buy a gun? 
In Australia it takes a month to obtain a licence to own a firearm and during that time a very thorough background check can take place.


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## dpwspringer (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Already false information is being disseminated about the shooter. While the police have not yet commented on the motive, be aware that the story going around that he is a communist member of Antifa is quite false.
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/texas-church-shooter-antifa/



I just finished reading a book called "Antifa: What Americans Need to Know about the Alt-Left". I don't think most Americans understand what that organization is or is all about. Our "news sources" are typically too biased, political, and/or ignorant to get things like that right until after they have tried to use whatever has happened to get the results they want. Antifa has a history going back to street fights between Communists and Nationalists in European countries roughly a hundred years back. They are the Communist factor and while they are more complicated than this, what you need to understand is they don't want the USA to exist... they also believe they have the right to accomplish their goals through any means necessary and that only they have the freedom to speak. I'm not saying they had anything to do with this, only they do function as a terrorist organization so you can't just dismiss the possibility that they might be involved. I wouldn't dismiss any terrorist type organization in this until more facts come out.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> Unfortunately Snopes is no more privy to info on the shooter than anyone else at this point.
> 
> It would be the ultimate disinformation tactic to disavow that he was Antifa. It wouldn't fit into the social commentary in our society at this point if it were true.



Snopes doesn't claim to know his motive but from the police reports they have refuted certain claims.



> The claims that Snopes is declaring false:
> 
> The gunman who opened fire inside a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, has been identified as Devin Kelley, an Antifa member who vowed to start a civil war by “targeting white conservative churches” and causing anarchy in the United States.
> Devin Kelley, who killed at least 27 people and injured many more, was one of two shooters in the church, according to eyewitnesses, who also report Kelley carried an Antifa flag and told the churchgoers “this is a communist revolution” before unloading on the congregation, reloading several times.


Snopes response:

_As of this writing little is known about Devin Kelley or his motivation for attacking a church, but neither police nor any reputable news organization has offered a desire “to start a civil war by targeting white conservative churches” as a motive for the shooting, nor reported that Kelley carried an Antifa flag and told churchgoers that he was participating in “a communist revolution”:

Preliminary news reports suggested instead that Kelley might have had a personal connection to one or more persons at the church he targeted:

__U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), who was briefed by investigators, said the shooter’s motive was not immediately clear, but he said, “I’ve been talking to some community members. They think there was a relative there. It was not random … There’s going to be some sort of nexus between the shooter and this small community … Somebody in that church will help us find answers.” _

I find this response and the assessment of the Antifa claim as false to be a logical conclusion.
I will happily eat my words if the authorities find an actual connection with between the shooter and Antifa and/or communism. The authorities have indicated that he was an avid collector of firearms based on a search of his premises.

​


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

Snopes isn't always correct and is very biased. I don't trust any info from Snopes or Politico. They are paid under the table.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Snopes doesn't claim to know his motive but from the police reports they have refuted certain claims.
> 
> 
> Snopes response:
> ...



According to (I think it was) _The Daily Mail _he had posted on social media about how "anyone who believed in God was stupid". Perhaps that is where the idea that he was a Communist came from. 

If he were indeed a member of Antifa, I would think that his membership would be a difficult thing to ascertain. The structure of terrorist organizations usually depends first of all upon secrecy. 

I agree that the flag-waving thing sounds a bit suspect at this point.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

I do not detect bias in the parts that I have quoted from the Snopes link. Let's wait now for the official reports from the authorities before accepting the story about an Antifa flag and threats to start a civil war by attacking white conservative churches. It could just be a grudge against family by a very violent man with a deadly weapon.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I do not detect bias in the parts that I have quoted from the Snopes link. Let's wait now for the official reports from the authorities before accepting the story about an Antifa flag and threats to start a civil war by attacking white conservative churches. *It could just be a grudge against family by a very violent man with a deadly weapon.*



That's where I fail. I cannot understand a mind that takes out so many innocents when they have a grudge against one or two people. Take those one or two out, okay, I can understand crimes of passion. But innocents? Children? What part of the mind fails and allows that to happen?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

chic said:


> He was dishonorably discharged from the military in 2012 for assaulting his wife and child. Why did he pass a background check for purchasing a weapon?



Background checks are a variable thing. They ask if you have a criminal record, are a fugitive from justice or addicted to something. I believe there's also a section for military service, and evidently if he was the purchaser of the guns his court-martial didn't get flagged. If there's no paper trail (he supposedly didn't have so much as a parking ticket) then the application will go through.


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## moviequeen1 (Nov 6, 2017)

I pray for all the victims families in this senseless  loss of life.
There have been times after these recent killings,I wish I could go back to my childhood in the mid 50's,early 60's when the world wasn't so violent,stay for awhile,and I felt safe. Sue


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## Camper6 (Nov 6, 2017)

Bottom line.

No one is safe anymore.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

According to CNN Facebook



> Kelley purchased the Ruger AR-556 rifle in April 2016 from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio, a law enforcement official told CNN.
> 
> When Kelley filled out the background check paperwork at the store, he checked the box to indicate he didn't have disqualifying criminal history, the official said. He listed an address in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he bought the rifle, the official said.



If this is a background check, it is a joke.

For me to be a volunteer member of a management committee for our church childcare centre I had to have a national police check and present myself with photo ID. This clearance has to be renewed every five years.

To buy a semi automatic rifle, all you have to do is tick a few boxes? As I said, that is laughable... and totally useless.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

A bit more background on the shooter



> ... the police have obtained information regarding Devin Patrick Kelley’s military service. According to _Fox News_, he served in the U.S. Air Force and was stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico. He served for four years from 2010 to 2014 in the logistic readiness unit.
> The chief of Air Force media operations, Ann Stefanek also released an official statement regarding Devin Patrick Kelley and his service history. In the statement, the U.S. Air Force stated that he was a problematic serviceman.
> Within two years after he entered the service, in 2012, Devin Patrick Kelley was court-martialed and charged with two counts of assault on his wife and children. He was later confined for 12 months and got a demotion. Later on, the Air Force discharged him for a bad conduct.
> 
> ...


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I do not detect bias in the parts that I have quoted from the Snopes link. Let's wait now for the official reports from the authorities before accepting the story about an Antifa flag and threats to start a civil war by attacking white conservative churches. It could just be a grudge against family by a very violent man with a deadly weapon.


My comment about Snopes was general. It's political so I'll drop it there. No one knows for sure yet but like the President said, "the TX church massacre is not a gun issue, it's a mental issue".


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## nvtribefan (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> Snopes isn't always correct and is very biased. I don't trust any info from Snopes or Politico. They are paid under the table.



By whom?  Proof?


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> That's where I fail. I cannot understand a mind that takes out so many innocents when they have a grudge against one or two people. Take those one or two out, okay, I can understand crimes of passion. But innocents? Children? What part of the mind fails and allows that to happen?


A combo of one or more or all of these causes will create thoughts of mass murder: psychopathic, sociopathic, schizophrenic, drugs/alcohol/caffeine(aiding paranoia and anxiety). 

Our nation needs to focus on fixing our mental health system. It's not working. I know. I tried to help someone just 6 months ago who told me "I want to kill a lot of people in a church like that kid in SC". He was in withdrawal as he was coming off a drug at the time that he was given for free on the streets. He also has symptoms of the several diagnoses I mentioned above. 

The mental health place I took him to turned him away because he wouldn't admit he needs help. They aren't going to admit it. He didn't think anything was wrong with him. The facility wouldn't listen to me because he's an adult. That's part of the symptom of the addiction and disease. Denial. That's not the only thing I've done to get him help. Each time, I hit a brick wall for the same reason. Opiods are out of control in our country. That's half the problem.

*nvtribefan*...yes I have proof of snopes being bias, but like I said, it's political and I can't go there. You can PM me if you want to know.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> A combo of one or more or all of these causes will create thoughts of mass murder: psychopathic, sociopathic, schizophrenic, drugs/alcohol/caffeine(aiding paranoia and anxiety).
> 
> Our nation needs to focus on fixing our mental health system. It's not working. I know. I tried to help someone just 6 months ago who told me "I want to kill a lot of people in a church like that kid in SC". He was in withdrawal as he was coming off a drug at the time that he was given for free on the streets. He also has symptoms of the several diagnoses I mentioned above.
> 
> ...



I believe involuntary commitment laws vary from state to state - certainly the numbers have gone down over the years. Emergency detention (through the police) might be a possibility in the case you mentioned, which might then lead to involuntary confinement depending upon how professionals diagnose him.


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## hearlady (Nov 6, 2017)

"Opioids are out of control in our country." Also psychotropic drugs. They are over prescribed and misused.


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

Thank you Phil. I have definitely thought of the police. In fact, I took him myself to a lock down mental health center where the police were and were guarding the door...but the intake officer determined he wasn't a threat to society because he wasn't telling them the same thing he said to me. I looked online at comments about the facility and they all agreed that it was understaffed, the patients were all grouped together and everyone was released a week or two later without adequate help, and sometimes worse. Our mental health system is a mess. I'm sure some areas are much better than others.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> Thank you Phil. I have definitely thought of the police. In fact, I took him myself to a lock down mental health center where the police were and were guarding the door...but the intake officer determined he wasn't a threat to society because he wasn't telling them the same thing he said to me. I looked online at comments about the facility and they all agreed that it was understaffed, the patients were all grouped together and everyone was released a week or two later without adequate help, and sometimes worse. Our mental health system is a mess. I'm sure some areas are much better than others.



That's a damned shame. I wonder if that intake officer had any training at all in mental health triage. The fact that they're understaffed probably did play into it. 

I agree that our mental health system is a mess. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any quick solution, especially with the financial cutbacks. 

I think it's also the nature of the problem that when you have someone who presents as normal, only to act-out suddenly for no apparent reason, it's pretty much impossible to talk about prevention or treatment strategies.


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

A person has to want help in order to be helped. HIPPA policy makes it illegal to share patient information with anyone so if the patient says to the mental health provider, "there's nothing wrong with me, I don't need help" then that's the end of it. They're released unless it's a police arrest situation. By that time it's often too late for the victim(s).


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## chic (Nov 6, 2017)

Hi in-laws and ex wife had been members of the church congregation he attacked so maybe this was a personal statement? In TX you don't require a license to purchase a gun? I guess background checks don't matter to them and possibly would not help, but he was court martialed and spent a year confined for his crimes of committing assault on his wife and child. Sorry but I see red flags everywhere with this guy.


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## Lara (Nov 6, 2017)

I heard the TX governor say this morning that the shooter was denied a gun permit in TX and are now looking into where and how he got the gun.


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## Big Horn (Nov 6, 2017)

News reports have stated that he received a bad conduct discharge, not a dishonorable discharge.  The latter is the equivalent of a felony, but the former is a misdemeanor.

There is no compelling evidence to support any particular motive at this time.


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## Big Horn (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> I heard the TX governor say this morning that the shooter was denied a gun permit in TX and are now looking into where and how he got the gun.


There may be a Texas law that denies a concealed carry permit, the only permit that Texas has, to an individual who has a bad conduct discharge.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 6, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I think the answer to that is that the background checks are inadequate. How long does it take to buy a gun?
> In Australia it takes a month to obtain a licence to own a firearm and during that time a very thorough background check can take place.



Military records are sealed and would not be available in a background check. If he had been arrested and charged by civilian authorities, that information would have shown up.


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## Camper6 (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> My comment about Snopes was general. It's political so I'll drop it there. No one knows for sure yet but like the President said, "the TX church massacre is not a gun issue, it's a mental issue".



I don't agree.  It is a gun issue.  It's the legal availability of semi automatic weapons which are the weapons of choice in mass murders.

Semi-automatic weapons are designed to kill in as little time as possible.

It's a problem, that is not going to go away any time soon.


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## Kadee (Nov 6, 2017)

Warri I had to have a background check every three years to work with people ( Adults)  with disabilities .( it took  up,to three months for the new clearance to come ) ..and many volunteers have to have police clearances just incase they come into contact with children .

I visited Tasmania 2 years after that horrible massacre in 1996  I can tell you it was very uncomfortable feeling knowing how 35 totally innocent men women and children died there at the hands of a madman ,that resulted in our Australian govement banning guns


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## chic (Nov 6, 2017)

Big Horn said:


> News reports have stated that he received a bad conduct discharge, not a dishonorable discharge.  The latter is the equivalent of a felony, but the former is a misdemeanor.
> 
> There is no compelling evidence to support any particular motive at this time.



His in-laws, his ex wife, and his grandmother in law (whom he did kill BTW) sound like motive enough to me. They were all attendees if not regular members of that church.


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## neotheone (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> Snopes isn't always correct and is very biased. I don't trust any info from Snopes or Politico. They are paid under the table.



No apparent bias with Snopes reporting.   Some may not like reading reports that contain negative information about their favorite public figure.

Some media either ignores or sugar-coats reporting, Snopes strives to get true accurate information...that is their only mission.


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## Butterfly (Nov 6, 2017)

Lara said:


> I heard the TX governor say this morning that the shooter was denied a gun permit in TX and are now looking into where and how he got the gun.



From what I read, it was a concealed carry permit that he was denied.


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## Warrigal (Nov 6, 2017)

What sort of permit and background check do you need for an AR 15 ?


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## Stormy (Nov 6, 2017)

RIP to the victims our country is going through some troublesome times and we should support each other and the ones who are grieving


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## Don M. (Nov 6, 2017)

This guy should have been barred from buying a firearm....IF some USAF clerk had done their job.  He was convicted of domestic assault on both his wife and young child, sentenced to a year in jail, and given a dishonorable discharge.  The USAF failed to send his records to the FBI and the ATF...which would have flagged him as a felon, and forbid his purchase of a weapon.  Instead, because of a bureaucratic overlook, we now have another mass shooting.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 6, 2017)

This was flat-out domestic violence. If he couldn't kill his ex-wife, he was willing to kill everyone who supported her.


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## Shalimar (Nov 6, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> This was flat-out domestic violence. If he couldn't kill his ex-wife, he was willing to kill everyone who supported her.


I agree.


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## Kadee (Nov 6, 2017)

Don M. said:


> This guy should have been barred from buying a firearm....IF some USAF clerk had done their job.  He was convicted of domestic assault on both his wife and young child, sentenced to a year in jail, and given a dishonorable discharge.  The USAF failed to send his records to the FBI and the ATF...which would have flagged him as a felon, and forbid his purchase of a weapon.  Instead, because of a bureaucratic overlook, we now have another mass shooting.



Don ...I heard the same thing on the news  .( on the radio ) .here In Australia, it doesn’t take long for news like that to travel ..and of course they always bring up the worst massacre Australia ever had in ...Tasmania


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## SifuPhil (Nov 7, 2017)

neotheone said:


> No apparent bias with Snopes reporting.   Some may not like reading reports that contain negative information about their favorite public figure.
> 
> Some media either ignores or sugar-coats reporting, Snopes strives to get true accurate information...that is their only mission.



Forbes magazine attempted to ascertain the absence of bias at Snopes. They came away with a lot of unanswered questions from one of the founders. 


> Regardless of whether the Daily Mail article is correct in its claims  about Snopes, at the least what does emerge from my exchanges with  Snopes’ founder is the image of the ultimate black box presenting a  gleaming veneer of ultimate arbitration of truth, yet with absolutely no  insight into its inner workings. While technology pundits decry the  black boxes of the algorithms that increasingly power companies like  Facebook, they have forgotten that even the human-powered sites offer us  little visibility into how they function.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 7, 2017)

How on earth could anyone ascertain the absence of bias? Isn't that like the old saw that says you can't prove a negative? Is Forbes so above reproach it can determine Snopes doesn't belong to the same rarified atmosphere?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 7, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> How on earth could anyone ascertain the absence of bias? Isn't that like the old saw that says you can't prove a negative? Is Forbes so above reproach it can determine Snopes doesn't belong to the same rarified atmosphere?



Well, I think perhaps Forbes has more of an "old-school" type of aura about it, whereas Snopes might be viewed as the "new kid on the block". Certainly, to the older generations, a tangible, paper-based magazine has a better history than a purely web-based outfit. 

"Absence of bias" was probably MY term, not theirs. If so, I apologize. 

But I think it all boils down to "Who watches the watchers?". And that applies not just to Snopes - it's an important thing to know in these days of so many watchers and "authorities". 

BTW: An interesting little paper about how you CAN prove a negative.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 7, 2017)

I found that same article when I was looking up info on 'proving a negative.' 

I subscribe to WaPo online and enjoy their Pinocchio awards. For the most part, I've appreciated Snopes but I don't usually go into it having already made up my mind. It's an interesting fact-checker for those of us who don't believe people walk on water.


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## Linda W. (Nov 11, 2017)

The killer's interest in church shootings didn't 100% have to do with his estranged wife and mother-in-law. This shows he greatly admired Dylann Roof's shooting up a church...that happened in 2015, long before his wife left him.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/us/devin-kelley-air-force.html


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## grahamg (Nov 12, 2017)

May I just say I admire the way forum members have conducted themselves on this thread, regardless of differences of opinion.


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## Pete (Nov 13, 2017)

It is truly sad that once again it is the innocent who suffer.  I posted a thread on this in another area that better reflects my feelings on this rampage. 

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/32785-Terrorism-in-America-just-your-neighbor-going-nuts


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## Camper6 (Nov 13, 2017)

Pete said:


> It is truly sad that once again it is the innocent who suffer.  I posted a thread on this in another area that better reflects my feelings on this rampage.
> 
> https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/32785-Terrorism-in-America-just-your-neighbor-goi


https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/32785-Terrorism-in-America-just-your-neighbor-going-nuts 

I didn't appreciate the light hearted humorous response to such a serious tragedy in that thread.


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## oldman (Nov 14, 2017)

Our church now requires that anyone, member or not, who is late for the start of the service must enter through the outside office door. It is coming to the point where churches, nightclubs and the like will have metal detectors placed at the entrance doors. We have two high schools in our county that require anyone that enters the door must pass through a metal detector. This practice has been going on for several years. In the one school, the principal was killed by a student and in the other school, numerous weapons have been taken away from students. 

http://old.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030425redlionrp2.asp


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## Pete (Nov 14, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> I didn't appreciate the light hearted humorous response to such a serious tragedy in that thread.



"Camper6" in no was was my posting, about the murders here in Dallas, intended to be humorous, and if you perceived it that way I apologize for the misunderstanding.


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## Camper6 (Nov 14, 2017)

Pete said:


> "Camper6" in no was was my posting, about the murders here in Dallas, intended to be humorous, and if you perceived it that way I apologize for the misunderstanding.



It wasn't your post.  Sorry about that.  It was in the thread.  It was a Steve Lee video from You Tube singing about how he loves guns surrounded by them.

Sorry.  I didn't appreciate the humor.


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## Camper6 (Nov 19, 2017)

There's one thing I do not understand.

The daughter of the NRA instructor who responded and shot Kelley.

She heard the gun shots.  Instead of phoning 911 she decided to drive to the church to see what was going on.

Then she drives back to her father's house and informs him of what was going on.

He rushes to the scene without shoes on and accosts the shooter who was leaving the scene.

Wouldn't it make more sense to phone 911 first?


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## Warrigal (Nov 19, 2017)

Hmmm. That does sound a bit odd. Is it accurate? What was the source?


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## SifuPhil (Nov 20, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Hmmm. That does sound a bit odd. Is it accurate? What was the source?



When you consider the common belief (borne out by experience) that "_When seconds count, the police are only minutes away_", it might not appear to be so odd.


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## Warrigal (Nov 20, 2017)

I'd still ring them first to minimise the response time, then do whatever else was practical and useful.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

Linda W. said:


> The killer's interest in church shootings didn't 100% have to do with his estranged wife and mother-in-law. This shows he greatly admired Dylann Roof's shooting up a church...that happened in 2015, long before his wife left him.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/11/us/devin-kelley-air-force.html



One doesn't negate the other. At a guess, he might have been a white supremacist. That goes along with everything else we know about hm.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> I'd still ring them first to minimise the response time, then do whatever else was practical and useful.



My mother lived in a village in Ohio. The local bank had an exposed  alarm wire and a couple of times kids climbed up and tripped the wire to  see how long it would take the sheriff's department (less than 10 miles away) to arrive. The  first time it was over an hour, the other nearly 45 minutes. 

That little  town in Texas is not likely to have gotten much police support and kept her on the phone wasting her time.


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## Warrigal (Nov 20, 2017)

I really am Pollyanna, aren't I?
I still trust the police to turn up and to not  shoot the person who called them.


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## Big Horn (Nov 20, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> One doesn't negate the other. At a guess, he might have been a white supremacist. That goes along with everything else we know about hm.


How?


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## Camper6 (Nov 20, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> My mother lived in a village in Ohio. The local bank had an exposed  alarm wire and a couple of times kids climbed up and tripped the wire to  see how long it would take the sheriff's department (less than 10 miles away) to arrive. The  first time it was over an hour, the other nearly 45 minutes.
> 
> That little  town in Texas is not likely to have gotten much police support and kept her on the phone wasting her time.




A small town like that?  The police station is probably just down the road.

You also have to consider first responders that can save lives of those injured not just the police.


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## Butterfly (Nov 21, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> A small town like that?  The police station is probably just down the road.
> 
> You also have to consider first responders that can save lives of those injured not just the police.



It isn't really a town at all, but an unincorporated rural community without its own police force.  They have to rely on the county sheriff and the Texas Rangers, from what I have read.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 21, 2017)

Part of the problem with sheriff's departments is that they sometimes serve an extensive geographical area and they always have many varied responsibilities. They might be helping a rancher get his cows out of the road when they get a call that some gang-bangers have started a gunfight on the other side of the county. People learn not to depend on them if they need help fast.


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## Camper6 (Nov 21, 2017)

So what is the answer? You go to church to pray and hope someone there is armed just in case?

What chance do you have if someone comes in with a semi automatic weapon?

Gun owners will simply not believe that the problem is with the proximate cause.  The weapon.  They want to focus on the shooter instead.  I'm afraid that's not working out so hot.


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## Warrigal (Nov 21, 2017)

First century Rome revisited?
Retreat deep inside the catacombs and post a guard at the entrance?


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## CeeCee (Nov 21, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> So what is the answer? You go to church to pray and hope someone there is armed just in case?
> 
> What chance do you have if someone comes in with a semi automatic weapon?
> 
> Gun owners will simply not believe that the problem is with the proximate cause.  The weapon.  They want to focus on the shooter instead.  I'm afraid that's not working out so hot.




This guy could also have a rammed a truck into the crowd as they were leaving the church...no?


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## Camper6 (Nov 21, 2017)

CeeCee said:


> This guy could also have a rammed a truck into the crowd as they were leaving the church...no?



Absolutely and that's always an option.  But trucks are designed for transportation not killing people.  But guns are designed for killing and somehow that seems to be the weapon of choice.

By the way.  He left his truck running for a quick getaway, so if he rammed the truck, how would he get away?

That's usually the terrorist method because they plan on committing suicide. It's their religion.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm sure they see it as going out in a blaze of glory, like a scene from the shoot everyone in sight action movies they love. Aren't they all little Rambos at heart?


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## Butterfly (Nov 22, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> So what is the answer? You go to church to pray and hope someone there is armed just in case?
> 
> What chance do you have if someone comes in with a semi automatic weapon?
> 
> Gun owners will simply not believe that the problem is with the proximate cause.  The weapon.  They want to focus on the shooter instead.  I'm afraid that's not working out so hot.



I've yet to see a firearm kill a bunch of people without some idiot pulling the trigger.  Mine always stay exactly where I put them.


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## SifuPhil (Nov 22, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I've yet to see a firearm kill a bunch of people without some idiot pulling the trigger. * Mine always stay exactly where I put them*.



Who, the idiots? 

You must have good gun control.


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## Camper6 (Nov 22, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Hmmm. That does sound a bit odd. Is it accurate? What was the source?



This is strange. I read it. I cannot find anything out about the daughter's role anymore. No interviews. Nothing. Even the timelines are sketchy. There was a video from inside the church. It won't be released to the public I don't think.

what I did read is that they don't want a media circus and just want to deal with recovering from the tragedy.


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## Camper6 (Nov 22, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I've yet to see a firearm kill a bunch of people without some idiot pulling the trigger.  Mine always stay exactly where I put them.



Just waiting their turn?


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## Eric (Nov 23, 2017)

SifuPhil said:


> When you consider the common belief (borne out by experience) that "_When seconds count, the police are only minutes away_", it might not appear to be so odd.








When seconds count the police are only minutes away I figure more than one person called 911 but they weren't there yet when that hero shot him chased him down and potentially stopped a lot more people getting killed that day or another day in the future.


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## Camper6 (Nov 23, 2017)

The hero did I good job but he got there to late to save anyone in the church.  Apparently the video is horrendous.  It shows him walking up and down the aisle and killing the wounded execution style, even children.

But calling 911 is the right thing to do because the sooner the first responders can get there the more lives have a chance of being saved. 

There's no evidence he was going anywhere else.  He dropped his rifle and he was wounded.

I just can't see how you can make America Great Again when those massacres occur and nothing is done to prevent them.


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## Camper6 (Nov 23, 2017)

Warrigal said:


> Hmmm. That does sound a bit odd. Is it accurate? What was the source?



The source was a television interview.

I'll send you a P.M. on it.


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## Warrigal (Nov 23, 2017)

Thanks, Camper.


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## todalake (Nov 24, 2017)

Camper6 said:


> The hero did I good job but he got there to late to save anyone in the church.  Apparently the video is horrendous.  It shows him walking up and down the aisle and killing the wounded execution style, even children.
> 
> But calling 911 is the right thing to do because the sooner the first responders can get there the more lives have a chance of being saved.
> 
> ...



Well I think America is already great so Again is redundant.   And this is a massacre.  http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/24/africa/egypt-sinai-mosque-attack/index.html


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## todalake (Nov 24, 2017)

Maybe everybody should be carrying a gun even to church.  

Go to 2:10

*Offensive Language*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAgIBgOA3M


Spoiler



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAgIBgOA3M


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## Camper6 (Nov 24, 2017)

todalake said:


> Well I think America is already great so Again is redundant.   And this is a massacre.  http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/24/africa/egypt-sinai-mosque-attack/index.html



You can't be great by comparing to the lowest common denominator.


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## Camper6 (Nov 24, 2017)

todalake said:


> Maybe everybody should be carrying a gun even to church.
> 
> Go to 2:10
> 
> ...




The minister

All rise.   Those not carrying concealed please remain seated.  We have to put on a show of strength.  I'll find the Bible passage later.


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## Warrigal (Nov 24, 2017)

todalake said:


> Maybe everybody should be carrying a gun even to church.



John, chapter 11, verse 35


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