# Transgender teen commits suicide due to Christian parents lack of acceptance!



## Ralphy1 (Jan 2, 2015)

Josh, who lived in Georgia, and who wanted to be called Leelah, walked in front of a truck and left a note pleading that his death bring more attention to his plight.  This sad story cries out for more understanding of this group of people.  Yet, society has refused to and more will die of suicide unless we do.  We can probably start off the new year in complete agreement on this matter...


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## hollydolly (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I have to say that's not how I read it..it's a tragedy as any suicide especially of a child ... and yes his parents because of their Christian beliefs, had difficulty coming to terms with it..rightly or wrongly...but if you read the notes this boy left..you will see that he was totally overwhelmed with the whole situation, even his friends didn't want to know after originally accepting him.

His parents were coming around to the idea, and it wasn't until they read his notes they had any idea he was even calling himself by a girls' name.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the parents, it's society as a whole who fear change, and this boy was very depressed ..


a little snippet from his suicide note..

After a  summer of having almost no friends plus the weight of having to think  about college, save money for moving out, keep my grades up, go to  church each week and feel like s**t because everyone there is against  everything I live for, I have decided I've had enough. I'm never going  to transition successfully, even when I move out. I'm never going to be  happy with the way I look or sound. I'm never going to have enough  friends to satisfy me. I'm never going to have enough love to satisfy  me. I'm never going to find a man who loves me. I'm never going to be  happy. Either I live the rest of my life as a lonely man who wishes he  were a woman or I live my life as a lonelier woman who hates herself.  There's no winning. There's no way out. I'm sad enough already, I don't  need my life to get any worse. People say 'it gets better' but that  isn't true in my case. It gets worse. Each day I get worse.

​

Read the full transcript here..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...EFUSES-honor-teen-s-identity-death-wrong.html


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## Debby (Jan 2, 2015)

Poor kid....I feel so bad for him and for other folks who are feeling that bad all the time.

You know, I saw a documentary years ago, that was about some European doctor who was studying transgender people's brains.  Of course it took many years, but every time he came across a transgender persons body (who had died of course) he used one of those machines that takes pictures of 'slices' of their brain (I think that's how it worked???) and what he discovered is that one part of their brain is actually different than a regular persons.  Probably the part that is involved with sexuality but it was a long time ago that I saw it so I couldn't give more details on his discovery or who he was.  But I remember it because socially we were at that point just before society was beginning to accept gay's.  I remember it because it showed that those aren't choices and folks are born that way and was the beginning of my change of mind on the subject.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 2, 2015)

Your first line of love and acceptance has to be your parents, and if they can't love and accept the real you, which they created, they have to shoulder the blame, along with their church and it's teachings...


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## Grumpy Ol' Man (Jan 2, 2015)

We've become a society... a culture of non-acceptance.  We refuse to accept a fellow human being because he/she is gay, transgender, liberal, conservative, white, black, Democrat, Republican, Christian, Jew, Muslim... and it goes on and on and on.  We refuse to accept our neighbor's lifestyle and probably don't even know our neighbor's name.  I still firmly believe much of the devisiveness... much of the hate is brought on by cable "news" commentators, political pundits, and religious extremists.  Each of those has a financial interest in keeping an audience emotionally charged so they continue listening/watching.  
This is not new.  It's just, I believe, become more visible by our instant communication technology.  We see demonstrations, hate crimes, political commentary, etc. 24/7 on our televisions and on the internet.  I remember my grandmother going completely bonkers when JFK was elected President.  He was a Catholic!!!  Our Country was doomed.  We'd never experienced a... egads... Catholic in the White House.  The Pope would be running our Country.  We would all be forced to move from Protestant to Catholic.  My word!  If she could only see how far we've come since the day a Catholic was inagurated!!!  
If we worked more to put our arms around our fellow man, accept them as friends/neighbors/relatives and allow their lifestyle to be their business... not ours............  But, it seems we as a society are too far gone to be that accepting.  Then, we read of children taking their own lives.  Sad.......


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## Bee (Jan 2, 2015)

After reading the following it is my opinion it is both society as a whole plus the parents putting their religion before their sons happiness.....

*
The 1,000-word suicide note has raised fresh questions about the use of   “conversion therapy”, the practice among religious groups of trying to teach   gay, lesbian or transgender people to overcome their desires through   religious devotion. **Leelah Alcorn, as the boy asked to be called, said that after coming out, his   mother had pulled him out of school, shut down his phone and social media   accounts “completely isolating me from my friends” in order that he could   become “their perfect little straight Christian boy, and that’s obviously   not what I wanted.”*
*“My mom started taking me to a therapist, but would only take me to Christian   therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I   needed to cure me of my depression," he wrote. "I only got more   Christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to   God for help."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...sex-by-Christian-parents-commits-suicide.html*


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## Butterfly (Jan 2, 2015)

IMHO the parents should have worked a whole hell of a lot harder to understand, support and accept their child, rather than trying to force him/her to be what THEY wanted him to be.


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## Bee (Jan 2, 2015)

Exactly Butterfly, I quite agree with you.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

Debby said:


> Poor kid....I feel so bad for him and for other folks who are feeling that bad all the time.
> 
> You know, I saw a documentary years ago, that was about some European doctor who was studying transgender people's brains.  Of course it took many years, but every time he came across a transgender persons body (who had died of course) he used one of those machines that takes pictures of 'slices' of their brain (I think that's how it worked???) and what he discovered is that one part of their brain is actually different than a regular persons.  Probably the part that is involved with sexuality but it was a long time ago that I saw it so I couldn't give more details on his discovery or who he was.  But I remember it because socially we were at that point just before society was beginning to accept gay's.  I remember it because it showed that those aren't choices and folks are born that way and was the beginning of my change of mind on the subject.



I don't know much about that sort of study, but I watched a movie last night that really got me thinking, "Lucy".  It's not what I usually go for but am glad I watched it.  Morgan Freeman was a Doctor who spoke at conferences and had studied how much of the human brain we use, and, what may happen if more were used, even up to 100%.  It was scifi, but it sure made we wonder why we have this great capacity of brain, and only use a tiny percent of it.  I thought of this while thinking about different parts of the brain, like which ones do we use, and how some may use different parts etc.


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## Debby (Jan 2, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> IMHO the parents should have worked a whole hell of a lot harder to understand, support and accept their child, rather than trying to force him/her to be what THEY wanted him to be.





Do any of us really know how 'hard the parents worked to understand...."?  Remember what your own teens were like?  You could comment on the sunshine outside and their nose gets out of joint because you dared say anything and they took it completely wrong.  It's entirely possible that the parents were trying but it wasn't good enough for him (because he's still young and inexperienced with life and relationships, etc) and he misread their efforts.  

It's always so easy to blame parents, but sometimes, the problems that young people get into has more to do with the kid being still just a kid.

On the other hand, in this case, the parents with their efforts to get him to fit their religious mould, certainly are probably regretting their choices.  They will likely be haunted by this for the rest of their lives.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

I know sometimes when I was a teen, no matter what my parents tried to do what was good and right, I was very close-minded.  No, I wouldn't be quick to judge, especially without know how much of the "rest of the story" we are getting.

By the same token, it could be the other way to an extent.  The boy's folks may not been able to cover their pain and of course a sensitive child is going to pick up on that  It's sad, another sad consequence of our society today, misinformation, misunderstanding those that suffer things we can't begin to fully understand unless we are there and in their shoes.  God help us all if You are there.  But God gave us all we need, so the bible says, so we should be able to do a lot better, and in doing so, help others.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 2, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I don't know much about that sort of study, but I watched a movie last night that really got me thinking, "Lucy".  It's not what I usually go for but am glad I watched it.  Morgan Freeman was a Doctor who spoke at conferences and had studied how much of the human brain we use, and, what may happen if more were used, even up to 100%.  It was scifi, but it sure made we wonder why we have this great capacity of brain, and only use a tiny percent of it.  I thought of this while thinking about different parts of the brain, like which ones do we use, and how some may use different parts etc.



My student recommended that movie to me - I thought it was pretty good. The only negative was that it reinforced that idea that we literally use only 10% of our brains - that was disproved a long time ago. If we did, we'd all be drooling idiots.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

I am, so how can I start using more then 10%.  Nice New Year resolution, gettin tired of emptying my drool cup.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 2, 2015)

Is it ignorance or someone expecting special or above average treatment? It's sad but after seeing old school senior citizens still introduce their adult kids life partners as roomates or friends of the family this does not surprise me.   But at the same time as with many thinking current events and/or trends apply to their own life including acceptance that might not work out the way it does in the news creating massive disappointment. When the news media hypes something like Michael Samm getting an NFL tryout because they are gay and the person is living life vicariously through the news I can see this stuff happening.  There is a certain degree of selfishness by both parties.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

Grumpy Ol' Man said:


> We've become a society... a culture of non-acceptance.  We refuse to accept a fellow human being because he/she is gay, transgender, liberal, conservative, white, black, Democrat, Republican, Christian, Jew, Muslim... and it goes on and on and on.  We refuse to accept our neighbor's lifestyle and probably don't even know our neighbor's name.  I still firmly believe much of the devisiveness... much of the hate is brought on by cable "news" commentators, political pundits, and religious extremists.  Each of those has a financial interest in keeping an audience emotionally charged so they continue listening/watching.
> This is not new.  It's just, I believe, become more visible by our instant communication technology.  We see demonstrations, hate crimes, political commentary, etc. 24/7 on our televisions and on the internet.  I remember my grandmother going completely bonkers when JFK was elected President.  He was a Catholic!!!  Our Country was doomed.  We'd never experienced a... egads... Catholic in the White House.  The Pope would be running our Country.  We would all be forced to move from Protestant to Catholic.  My word!  If she could only see how far we've come since the day a Catholic was inagurated!!!
> If we worked more to put our arms around our fellow man, accept them as friends/neighbors/relatives and allow their lifestyle to be their business... not ours............  But, it seems we as a society are too far gone to be that accepting.  Then, we read of children taking their own lives.  Sad.......



Very true, I've heard acceptance is the key to happiness, or at the very least, it is good when we ourselves can't change something, it's out of our hands.  Why people want to hate if someone has a different lifestyle is beyond me.  No, I may not agree with the way they live, but I sure don't hate them.  Like cigarettes, I hate cigarettes, but I don't hate the smoker.  And if people are happy doing what their doing (as long as it isn't harming someone else (like breaking the law etc) then it is their life to live.  If they ask for help, then we give it, otherwise, accept it.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 2, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I am, so how can I start using more then 10%.  Nice New Year resolution, gettin tired of emptying my drool cup.



You're lucky you only use a cup - I have to lean over the swimming pool.

I suppose, short of using "smart cocktails" like they did back in the early '80's (and that little trend seemed to die out rather quickly), you'd have to utilize a multidisciplinary approach. 

Proper nutrition, exercise and rest. Mental stimulation. Learn to push yourself mentally beyond your comfort zone. Constantly challenge yourself with new situations.

Sounds like too much work - I'll just hang out at the pool.


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## oakapple (Jan 2, 2015)

It was tragic. However, other transgender people/teenagers struggle and win through in their lives, however difficult.Some teenagers commit suicide because their girlfriends leave them, or they do badly in exams or other reasons.This boy was depressed as well as transgender and it all became too much for him.
I think that here in the West, we have, by and large, become more tolerant , so things are getting better.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> You're lucky you only use a cup - I have to lean over the swimming pool.
> 
> I suppose, short of using "smart cocktails" like they did back in the early '80's (and that little trend seemed to die out rather quickly), you'd have to utilize a multidisciplinary approach.
> 
> ...



Metoo Phil, meet you there, lets go early so we can drool in privacy, LOL!  We are sick ya know, I sense people here putting us on "ignore" as we speak, LOL!  Maybe they already have, LOL!!  Nah, there's some other droolers around that'll stick with us


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## Warrigal (Jan 2, 2015)

Teen suicide is a serious problem and with the best will in the world, parents are not always able to prevent their children from self harm. 
It is unfair to lay all the guilt at their doorstep.

We do have a well publicised organisation over here called "Beyond Blue" that has a help line that can be called any time and this is saving lives of people suffering depression. It is also putting them on the right track to manage it.


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## Denise1952 (Jan 2, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Teen suicide is a serious problem and with the best will in the world, parents are not always able to prevent their children from self harm.
> It is unfair to lay all the guilt at their doorstep.
> 
> We do have a well publicised organisation over here called "Beyond Blue" that has a help line that can be called any time and this is saving lives of people suffering depression. It is also putting them on the right track to manage it.



I'm in total agreement with you Dame.  It's kind of like giving all the credit to the parents when a child succeeds in something great.  It took a lot of different input, from many, for that person to get to the point of winning the Nobel prize.  

I hate seeing innocent children dying from parents that are obviously sick people, eliminating them from the face of the Earth, which may be a good think as well, will not stop the way things are going.  We will read, and continue to read horrific things, and many will blame those directly involved.  Ok, maybe we need to hate someone, but there are others responsible, including ourselves if we sit by, over and over, without doing anything possible to help change things.  I don't know, maybe I am just a dreamer.


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Jan 3, 2015)

*Not sure where I stand on this.  I warn my response is probably going to be controversial.*

This is going to be long because I have some personal experience, some of the issues involved hit very close to home.

I was a very suicidal teen and, yes, with an extremely domineering religious fanatic of a mother and, yes, that had a lot to do with it.  I was close friends with a boy from my church who wound up shooting up the school and I do think our church played a role.  Will explain more in a bit.

My daughter is bi and I don't care.  She is who she is.  She also battles depression and is living with a trans-gender gf who I went from adoring to I hope she leaves this bitch's sorry ass.  Again, I will explain more in a bit.  I am pretty much willing to call anyone by whatever gender they choose to identify as regardless of age and status of transition surgery, if any.  My daughter and I have both made suicide attempts, both in our 20's when our children were toddlers.

Those things said, I have to also say this (loud and clear):
*
AM I REALLY THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS TRANSITION SURGERY SHOULD HAVE TO WAIT 'TIL YOU'RE 18!!!  AS SHOULD BOOB JOBS!!!   *Seriously, how is this sort of thing even being done on those still going through the bodily changes of puberty.  My freaking boobs didn't even come in until I was 18!!!  WTF?  I can find fault with his/her parents but making him wait until he's a legal adult is not one of those things.

Am I also the only one seeing prejudice against all Christians, not just the fanatical, in the coverage of this event?  We do not know how fanatical they were.  They may have just had religious beliefs they held to.  If we start telling people they can't raise their kids in their religion, we threaten all our religious freedom.  It sounds to me that they were struggling with what was best for their child.  If they were fanatics, I doubt they'd have struggled with it at all.

Also, there is so much more at play than just gender choice here, so many more issues and so much more going on with him/her than that alone.  I hate, hate, hate the over-simplifying anything as complicated as suicide and blaming it on just one cause.  Despite you may be able to call me on that a bit when I discuss my own suicidal tendencies as a teen.  Depression is a very complicated disease and no one -- point blank no one -- is to blame for anyone else's suicide.

  Remember I said that when I lay a lot of blame at my mother's feet.  Still, while someone or several people may play a huge factor -- as is the case with the bullied -- ultimately, no one is to blame for anyone else's suicide.  It is a mental illness that makes them deal with said awful situations that by taking their own life.  Possibly, no one seems to think the terminally ill mentally ill for taking their own life.  Yes, this is a double standard that bugs me when we talk about the terminally sad.

OK, let me get back to the personal things this stirs up.  Yes, I was a very sucidal teen.  My mother is literally very much like the mother on Stephen King's Carrie.  The remake made me shudder even more than the original did because Julianne Moore nailed my mother's body language and expressions which Piper Laurie -- who I thought owned it until then -- did not.  I had nightmares for day's after seeing the remake because Moore scared me so bad only because her acting was so utterly phenomenal that I have to wonder if she or the director or somebody guiding her acting knew someone as crazy as my mother.  

So, yes, my mother was a huge part of why I was suicidal.  But I easily come up with three factors contributing to my having to fight the urge to run a knife through my wrists every time I saw one and this is why I mention the boy who shot up the school:  We were good friends because we shared these three factors:  bullied at home, bullied at school, and bullied at church.  

Our church was one of those hellfire and brimstone types, not the God is love type.  I had my mother who I was never sure would NOT kill me because she literally did run around the house screaming thou shalt not suffer a witch to live (who the hell did King know like her, I swear he was spying on our household, I was skinny and shy and afraid of my own shadow in high school) and when I was little and confronted with the Bible story of Abraham and Isaac for the first time, I fearfully asked her if she would kill me if God asked her too.

  Instead of saying the sensible, reassuring thing, she would answer don't worry, God would never ask me too.  I asked her this constantly and could never get reassurance that she wouldn't just claims that God wouldn't ask.  Strangely, I was not reassured.  I was about 7 then.  Also, I was the weakling of the family (possibly because my mother was very ill with bronchitis when she was pregnant with me) and got picked on by my 7 siblings and both parents were physically abusive as was my 2nd oldest sibling put in charge of us because she knew no other way than her fists to control us. 

 My friend would tell me how his father and two brothers would pick on him because they considered him rather a sissy.  He particularly told how of when he was taken hunting (country folks, boys hunt at 12, no argument accepted) and couldn't shoot a deer how they pretty much tortured him for it verbally and teasing him with guns.

We were both bullied at school.  Skinny, geeky kids painfully shy with no fashion sense and definitely not in the in-crowd.  In fact, when he and I became friends, my sisters were how can you be friends with that weirdo and his brothers said the same about me.

So, yes, the above tri-facta played factors in our mental problems plus we were friends because of said mental problems and would share such stories and basically enabled each others feeling of what a lousy world.  I turned it inward and was very suicidal (sometimes I'm still amazed I survived my teens and don't think I would have if not for a different boy that would talk to me for hours on end on the phone) and he, well, he tried to bury them or something until he snapped one fine day, and this boy who couldn't shoot a deer took his hunting rifle and 200 rounds of ammunition down to our high school and tried to take it over.

  I had no clue he was going to do this.  No one, I'm sure even himself, did.  Fortunately, during evening activities instead of during the day and no one was hurt though he fired several rounds into the ceiling.  This was 1975 in case you wonder why I get pissed when people say school shootings are something new.  No, they're not.  Research it.  Wasn't even new in 1975.  

Those anedotes are just for what it's worth.  But, in every school shooting and in many of these suicide stories, I see the same tri-facta at play time after time after time:  bullied at home, school and by a staunch, rigid hellfire and brim stone church.  The answer to this?  I have no idea unless we can become better at ending bullying and getting kids out of abusive homes.

OK, now to the other.  As soon as I left home, got away from those bullies -- home, school and church -- though I hadn't given up religion (though I stopped believing and Jesus and eventually almost converted to Judaism; it was 10 year journey from Christianity to Atheism with stops at Judaism and Agnosticism along the way), the suicidal tendencies vanished overnight but resurfaced when I was in a bad marriage.

  I was Agnostic throughout the bulk of my marriage, he was Baptist but not very extreme in it, even agreed with not baptizing the baby.  But suicidal tendencies grew as his abusiveness did 'til I, with a crazy thought that my favorite sister would raise my daughter, took a bunch of sleeping pills just after her first birthday.  I was 26.  That attempt though scared it out of me and I'm glad it was 1984 because nowadays, they'd have locked me up.  I was so scared I was going to die that I was begging the paramedics and then the ER doctor to save my life, which, of course, they were intent on doing.  (Don't ever need your stomach pumped; it is not pleasant.) 

 They merely asked me if I were going to try it again, I said no way and was sent back home with my husband and young daughter.  I never have tried it again.  It's odd but I hit bottom then got strong and it was the wake-up call I needed.  I divorced him not too much later (about six months) and got full custody of my daughter while still married actually at the advice of a day-care ironically in a church so see all Christians aren't bad.  I shudder to think how much differently that would have gone down today with me being kept for observation for a week minimally and his maybe using it to get custody though not necessarily.

As I said, my daughter made an attempt when grandson was also a toddler.  He was 2; she was 22.  She was kept for a week and then released and only released then because she followed the program and because I was willing to let her come home with me.  Her and his father had already split up and it was probably a factor.

  She did not have the church factor as she was raised unchurched so that right there says you cannot over-simplify like that.  Also, her mother was always accepting of her bi-sexuality so again, more complicated than that though I don't dismiss either as factors, obviously.  I just say it's more complicated than that.  She had a more difficult climb out of depression than I did but she now manages it and manages it very well.

  Grandson was with his Dad for a short time then came home to his Mom.  They have the standard these days:  joint custody but she has full physical custody and he spends every other weekend and time each holiday at his Dad's.

I mention her trans-girlfriend (gone from male to female) only because I have learned a lot more about trans-gender issues because of having someone transgender so close.  I never particularly understood transitioning but I shrugged and said to each their own.  Sex changes exist and while I don't get it, people are going to do it and that's their business, not mine.  I've always been able to respect whatever they choose to identify as. 

 I told her when I met her and meant this:  I don't care about gender (including trans); all I care about is if you treat my daughter and grandson with love and respect.  Treat them good; I will love you.  Treat them bad; I will hate you.  It seemed the first for the longest time and I adored her because she was loving towards them and respectful towards me.  

But this all changed recently and there was a rather severe domestic violence incident with her.  My grandson went between me and his Dad's and daughter was in a domestic violence shelter.  I am not happy about this but daughter has returned to her after apologies and some reformation.  Given my history, I admit that's because I can't trust such reformation given the severity of the incident.  (She threatened not only my daughter's life but mine and that she was going to have her son taken away from her.) 

 There seem to have been two factors at play in this incident.  One was that gf fell off the wagon and drinking played a part.  She has also had bariatric surgery and did not realize how easily alcohol was absorbed in her smaller stomach and now says she knows she cannot drink at all.  But another factor at play was gender identification which is apparently a mental issue sometimes with sex change surgeries. 

 There were some signs of this that daughter and I though we noted them did not know they were of serious concern but can lead to things like incidents of domestic violence.  She was doing some pretty macho tripping things and also attempting to be head of household.  Part of it is she has a giant brain (I do not exaggerate, she holds patents, jointly and invidually, I used to tease her about being a mad scientist, she is actually an engineer but she does invent some incredible things) and earns a great deal more than my retail worker daughter, about 10x as much actually.

  But she'd talk like the stereotype of the man of the house saying things like I'm going to take care of you, wanting to be in charge of the money, treating my daughter like a stereotypical wife, telling her she doesn't have to work, and so on.  Of course, unless she's to come down to the standard of living my daughter can afford, she does necessarily pay more of the bills.

  But all these surface things are often an indication of gender identity issues.  The domestic violence shelter has dealt with them often so it is not an unusual factor in domestic violence.  I didn't even know it was a thing that existed so I share this for what it's worth in this discussion too. Also, if she doesn't take her hormones, I know that causes problems.  Now she is not drinking and is making sure to take all meds but, of course, I'm less than accepting and am not happy my daughter has returned. 

 That, however, is my daughter's decision.  If they remain together, I will eventually have to decide what my approach is going to be but this decidedly is because of the incident and not because she's trans.  I have a slight problem with anyone threatening our lives, no matter what the cause of it is.  That probably plays back to both my marriage (he once held a knife to my throat and told me they were going to find me dead in the street after I threw him out and began divorce proceedings) and growing up with a mother I was literally afraid would kill me.

Sorry this got so long.  Just had too much to share on these issues.  If you read all that, thank you. 

If not, short version is:  It's more complicated than just this boy identifying with being a girl and his parents having trouble accepting that.  Just laying all the blame on them, therefore, is unreasonable.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 3, 2015)

Really, bottom line is.......in general, a lot of society, not all, but a lot, will not accept anything that isn't consider "normal" by the general public. I remember the old name "Tom Boy", when talking about a girl who would do things that boys would do. But, back then, those "Tom Boy's" wouldn't even think of getting a gender/****** change, like done today. And, years ago, who would ever see a boy that wanted to be a girl and would possibly act like one and change their body looks? I don't think it happened. 

Today, if a person does/acts like something that many would consider "not normal", they will get picked on or worse. Heck, I remember when "nerds" got teased all the time for how they looked/acted. The glasses, the shirt-pocket saver (handy if a pen leaked, but very "nerdy" looking, black slacks and Penny loafer shoes. And, sometimes, if a young boy wears a bow tie instead of a regular tie, they would get teased. 

It's very unfortunate what happened, but most parents want their kids to be "normal/normal looking/normal acting" and a lot of times, simply won't accept anything else.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 3, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> ... It's very unfortunate what happened, but most parents want their kids to be "normal/normal looking/normal acting" and a lot of times, simply won't accept anything else.



And who is the arbiter of "normal"? The parents.

Hence, the ages-old revolution of teens, constantly pushing the envelope, until we have arrived at the point where the teen dictates what is to be. 

And as time goes on the definition of "normal" becomes something completely different. 

If you want to be part of society you have to play by their rules.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 3, 2015)

BlazeDuskdreamer, thanks for sharing your personal experience. It's not easy for many of us to understand what's behind suicides and troublesome feelings and behavior.  It's gotta be tough feeling threatened by your own mother, and then followed by threats from others in your life.  I hope the situation improves for your daughter and her partner, the issues obviously run deeper than I know. Wishing a brighter and more positive future for both you and your daughter...hugs.


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Jan 3, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And who is the arbiter of "normal"? The parents.
> 
> Hence, the ages-old revolution of teens, constantly pushing the envelope, until we have arrived at the point where the teen dictates what is to be.
> 
> ...



Normal has changed too.  Now it's expected that if you are a "tom boy" you want to be a boy and that's just not always the case.  Same for the opposite scenario.  I do have to wonder how many go with a gender change just because they think they have to if they don't fit the gender stereotype for their gender.  What I mean is they don't think they're really a girl because they like to play with trucks and toy soldiers and hate dresses.  Now I haven't worn a skirt or make-up in 30 years but I don't want to be a dude, no offense.  However, this is greatly the assumption in today's new stereotypes.  I'm also often mistaken for gay because on top of wearing pants, no make-up and being extremely independent, I keep my hair short.  It's not a mannish cut but I am still mistaken as gay when I'm not. On the other hand, my pretty feminine daughter with long hair who loves make-up often has people surprised she is bi.  Seems we are just as trapped by gender stereotypes as ever.  It just now takes more drastic measures.  Maybe there are times the sex change is the right thing for the person but I bet it's all too often presented to them as the only option if they don't fit gender stereotypes.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 3, 2015)

Good point, yet back before the '60's, in the days when gender roles were REALLY fixed, we didn't seem to see so much frustration and so many suicides over gender confusion. 

Was it just covered up? I doubt it. 

That's why I mentioned parental (and societal) laxity as a cause for such current-day problems. It's okay to be confused now, and that's a big part of the problem. Just as children thrive when given rules and regulations and taught proper behavior, so too do they go wild when told _any_ behavior is fine.

I don't know ... maybe I got a good mix of hormones when I was born, maybe it's because I've never felt the urge for gender re-assignment, but I find it difficult to empathize with these suicides. I put it down more to teen angst than gender confusion.


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## Warrigal (Jan 3, 2015)

BlazeDuskdreamer, don't think that I didn't take in in all that you have told us about your experiences.
I did, and I wish to extend my sympathies for all the pain you have suffered.

There is just one sentence that puzzles me.



> I was Agnostic throughout the bulk of my marriage, he was Baptist but not very extreme in it, even agreed with not baptizing the baby


I do not find it surprising that a Baptist would agree to not baptising the baby. Indeed, I would find it surprising if he agreed to infant baptism at all.

Are American Baptists different to Baptists in other countries?


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## Debby (Jan 4, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> BlazeDuskdreamer, don't think that I didn't take in in all that you have told us about your experiences.
> I did, and I wish to extend my sympathies for all the pain you have suffered.
> 
> There is just one sentence that puzzles me.
> ...




I was a baptist for a couple years and I don't ever recall a baby being baptized or christened.  If anything, there was a ceremony in front of the church that simply acknowledged the new member.  Baptism in our church was reserved for people who were able to make a cognitive 'decision for Christ'.


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## AprilT (Jan 4, 2015)

The ignorance related to the matter of ****** orientation that still exist with the so called more enlighten really astonishes me.  People were jailed, brutalized and killed at times for a hint of being anyway but one way and that is so called, "straight," straight and narrow minded in their dealings in human sexuality.   Seriously, this can still happen in some places, uh even in the good ole US of A, people are stalked and maimed for having a different orientation.  Yes, people have been tormented for decades about their orientation only thing new is more people admitting they have feelings that don't fit inside a neat little box that they've been forced into by the people who can't seem to wrap their brains around the fact that we're not all cut from the same cloth.  As human beings there's not one real set ****** orientation other than what we've boxed ourselves into believing by societal rules.  Not saying we should all run out and go buck wild crazy, just saying people need to stop forcing others to whom appear wired different to conform to their way of existing simply because they don't quite understand.  It might be better to educate oneself on the matter than just pull stuff out of the crapper for the sake of having something to say.

People have been committing suicide for not understanding, not being accepted, feeling trapped in no win situations such as knowing they're never going to fit in, never going to feel like a whole person when they can't be or live as they feel they are inside.  

It wasn't gender reassignment issues, but, good example of this, would be to take a look at what happened to, the very brilliant, Alan Turing, in the recently released movie "The Imitation Game."  Very sad what some people have to live through at the hands of the rest of us due to our very limited reasoning capabilities.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 4, 2015)

Many might say, "ok, what is "normal" in today's society"?. "Normal" is when people don't give you strange looks b/c of the way you look and or act. When a man or woman wants to change their first name to match how they feel about their sexuality AND when they want to change their looks, for the same reason.......many people will be against that and will make fun of that change. Some people who do that lose their families and friends, but do get what THEY want......to be the opposite sex of how they were born.

A lot of folks just aren't "open-minded" to things people do to themselves or how they act. A lot of people don't want to be "open-minded" to everything and that should be fine also.


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## Phoenix14 (Jan 4, 2015)

I am of Baptist persuasion as well and whilst there are a number of families who don't accept anything different from the 'normal', I believe if God makes people the way they are and can love them the way they are, why can we not accept that.  It's society and _man's _interpretations of any book of religion that causes the problems.   

Some time ago I wrote a blog on another forum which I think is relevant to this thread.  I didn't realise until I met the person I wrote about, the agonies they go through.  It is horrendous for them personally and it doesn't help if they are looked down upon by society.   I have also heard interviews with others who have undergone surgery to make changes and they are still not happy.  Whether it's anything to do with the physical side I don't know but one army major lost his family when he told them how he felt, he went through all the processes but at the end of the interview, he was asked if he regretted it and he said 'yes'.   

When blogging, my daughter has given me inspiration many, many times and one such story, inspired by a past friend of my daughter.   The 'past friend' isn't due to a falling out or anything personal between them, it's because of the friend's journey into another life.  The names are fictitious but the people are real.

"My daughter first met Katherine at an agricultural college.  The college catered for farming, fishery and other countryside pursuits training and like the course for Countryside Ranger training, my daughter and Katherine were students there.  Katherine however was to be known later as Archie because she belonged to that group of people of muddled gender, she was a male trapped in a female body.  Psychologically she was a male and after years of deliberation decided that she would shed the femininity side and become a male.   I had only heard of people like that and like many others, I felt a little apprehensive of the thought of it and by the time I met her, she was in the process of becoming male.

It wasn't an easy journey for her and one which wasn't being taken lightly.  Once the process started, she only had two years to change her mind.  That was the time she had been given to live as a man, in every way.  She was now a 'he' and his name was Archie.   He was a lovely person, very interesting to talk to, the big difficulty was remembering to address him as he or him or his.  Of course being at college also meant he had to use the 'gents' loos which freaked the fishery students out because physically he was still in a female body. 

He did look like a man, in fact although quite young, he looked much older and actually there wasn't really much femininity in his looks or manners other than still having normal female attributes.   The body changes would all be scheduled for change under the knife.   Graduation was the last time we saw Archie, he already had the first in a series of operations to change his body and the removal of his breasts had hit him harder psychologically much more than he had expected.   He went through a long time of depression.   He had decided to start a completely new life and shake off the old one by removing as much as he could of outside reminders of his past life.   So he just disappeared completely, giving up all friends in the process.

I only met Archie once when he stayed the weekend with us and I've thought about him from time to time.   We hear about people like him and dismiss the thought with sympathy, disgust or disdain.  It's easy to judge when they are strangers but when you've seen the agony they go through, you can only try to understand but you never will completely because you've never been there.   There's the thought of giving up the body you were born with and in Archie's case, he thought it would make the journey easier by giving up friends – both of these I think are beyond imagination.  I know how I feel at losing even one friend,whatever the reason, but to give them all up deliberately as an easier option to risk seeing friends embarrassed and not being able to handle or accept the situation, or hearing the whispered remarks or seeing the nudges.  It's difficult to disappear completely and we have heard he is living and working in the other side of the country from us.  No doubt his friends could trace him if they really put their mind to it but will probably respect his wishes and privacy and hope just to hear, from time to time, that's he's ok.  The journey for him would have been arduous enough psychologically without interference and if he wishes to re-appear again, I'm sure he'll find a way".

I also knew someone many years ago, a friend and a very nice young man and he too had psychological problems with being of mixed gender, but we were too young and naive to understand so I would think that any suicide attempt would come from an inner battle more so than outside influence.


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Jan 4, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Good point, yet back before the '60's, in the days when gender roles were REALLY fixed, we didn't seem to see so much frustration and so many suicides over gender confusion.
> 
> Was it just covered up? I doubt it.
> 
> ...



That is also a good point though I wonder how the suicide rates then and now compare and if any suicides could be attributed to gender identity problems most didn't know or understand back then.



Dame Warrigal said:


> BlazeDuskdreamer, don't think that I didn't take in in all that you have told us about your experiences.
> I did, and I wish to extend my sympathies for all the pain you have suffered.
> 
> There is just one sentence that puzzles me.
> ...





Debby said:


> I was a baptist for a couple years and I don't ever recall a baby being baptized or christened.  If anything, there was a ceremony in front of the church that simply acknowledged the new member.  Baptism in our church was reserved for people who were able to make a cognitive 'decision for Christ'.



Apparently, I'm ignorant of Baptist customs despite four years married to one!  He wasn't much of a church-goer though he did believe in God.  Thanks for enlightening me.  No wonder he didn't argue when I refused to baptize her.  His family did but his family was a mix of Baptist and Catholic and the Catholics were the more ardent.  My daughter was younger than her Baptist cousins and I hadn't been present to know if there was a baptism or not.  Seems there might have been some sort of ceremony but perhaps it's like my mother's Dutch Reformed.  All 8 of us are dedicated, not baptized.



Phoenix14 said:


> I am of Baptist persuasion as well and whilst there are a number of families who don't accept anything different from the 'normal', I believe if God makes people the way they are and can love them the way they are, why can we not accept that.  It's society and _man's _interpretations of any book of religion that causes the problems.
> 
> Some time ago I wrote a blog on another forum which I think is relevant to this thread.  I didn't realise until I met the person I wrote about, the agonies they go through.  It is horrendous for them personally and it doesn't help if they are looked down upon by society.   I have also heard interviews with others who have undergone surgery to make changes and they are still not happy.  Whether it's anything to do with the physical side I don't know but one army major lost his family when he told them how he felt, he went through all the processes but at the end of the interview, he was asked if he regretted it and he said 'yes'.
> 
> ...



Insightful post.  I think some of that is in play with daughter's gf too though I'm not sure how much and I doubt even she is.  Like I said, some gender identity issues are at play.  She looks like a woman but there's been some macho tripping and wanting to position as head of household.  Also, for humor, she will let her voice drop into the deep man's voice at times.  When we met, she did that to see if it would cause a reaction in me but it just made me (and my grandson) laugh.  It was a joke punchline.  She is also greatly bothered because her family insists on continuing to call her by her male name.  Also, some of her older patents are in that name.  I know recently, for a job she got and is now working, on a job interview that entailed showing those patents, the person actually said to her unless you've had a sex change operation not realizing he was not making the joke he thought until she replied, well, actually...  She was also already a father when she underwent the surgery which complicates things for not just her but her children, both of which expressed confusion to me over it.  As her son put it, "It's weird saying she's my dad," even though she is.  They call her by her female name, not Mom (which belongs to the woman that gave birth to them in their minds) or Dad.

You do learn more getting to know people but I think it's much too complicated to blame on just the parents of these teens.  Also, given the two year process and the tough decision involved, it seems to me unethical to begin while the child is still a minor though I don't object to allowing them to identify and dress and present as the gender opposite what they were born, just the actual surgery and the process before it should wait until they are an adult.  It is a major physical change to a body undergoing the changes of puberty and seems to me unethical but then I was not being facetious.  I also think boob jobs are unethical at that age for the same reason.  Do doctors have no ethics any more?  Is it just about making a buck?


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Jan 4, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> BlazeDuskdreamer, thanks for sharing your personal experience. It's not easy for many of us to understand what's behind suicides and troublesome feelings and behavior.  It's gotta be tough feeling threatened by your own mother, and then followed by threats from others in your life.  I hope the situation improves for your daughter and her partner, the issues obviously run deeper than I know. Wishing a brighter and more positive future for both you and your daughter...hugs.



Thank you.  Sorry, I missed this comment earlier.  I don't know how it will turn out but suspect they run too deep and they won't.  It's a difficult situation, especially as I'm currently not talking to her, which will only change with time, if things get better.  I have a nasty suspicion that they're better as in not abusive but not good still.  My daughter doesn't give up on family easily plus we're both attached to her partner's children, the youngest, her daughter, was born the same month as my grandson!  Hopefully, for everyone concerned, especially the three children involved, they both (my daughter is not without fault) will get to a better place mentally.


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## Phoenix14 (Jan 4, 2015)

I think years ago there were certain guidelines and expectations, if born looking like either a male or female then that's what you should be.  It would have been even more difficult for parents to think otherwise and the children would need to follow the parents rules and regulations.  So in spite of going through their own emotional turmoil, the fact that they did have parental guidance may have kept them on a more even keel.   I could be wrong of course but children need guidance and we live in a society where children virtually rule the roost so I would think it more difficult if anyone who is transgender now to live without distinct guidance of some sort.  It must also be a very strong feeling if a parent changes whilst the children are young and not able to understand.  I can't help thinking that however unhappy I would be, I would prefer to wait until the children were grown up but that's from someone on the outside looking in.


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## Blaze Duskdreamer (Jan 6, 2015)

Phoenix14 said:


> I think years ago there were certain guidelines and expectations, if born looking like either a male or female then that's what you should be.  It would have been even more difficult for parents to think otherwise and the children would need to follow the parents rules and regulations.  So in spite of going through their own emotional turmoil, the fact that they did have parental guidance may have kept them on a more even keel.   I could be wrong of course but children need guidance and we live in a society where children virtually rule the roost so I would think it more difficult if anyone who is transgender now to live without distinct guidance of some sort.  It must also be a very strong feeling if a parent changes whilst the children are young and not able to understand.  I can't help thinking that however unhappy I would be, I would prefer to wait until the children were grown up but that's from someone on the outside looking in.



I think there came a point where she just couldn't live the lie but, yes, also I think the more I know her, the wider a selfish streak I see -- but don't tell my daughter I said that!


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