# The Japanese People Learned.........But Not Their Government.



## Debby (Aug 30, 2015)

The Japanese people learned a terrible lesson, but their government hasn't apparently and they protested!  



'



Tens of thousands of people gathered outside Japan’s parliament building on Sunday to protest Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s controversial bill, which authorizes Japanese armed forces to join foreign military operations. Some also called for the PM’s resignation............
Masses of people in Tokyo flooded the street in front of the parliament’s main entrance and surrounded the building. A nearby park was also swarming with demonstrators. Despite being present in heavy numbers, the police were unable to restrict the demonstrators to the sidewalks because of the size of the crowd, Reuters reports....    _“Japan should not become a country that wages war. Besides, Japan must build a good relationship with its Asian neighbours,”_ added another female demonstrator.

_“If I don’t take action and try to put a stop on this, I will not be able to explain myself to my child in the future,”_ Naoko Hiramatsu, an associate professor in French, who came to the protest with her four-year-old son, told Reuters.....'   http://www.rt.com/news/313856-japan-rally-parliament-war-bill/

It's the governments that cause the destruction, but sometimes the people just aren't into it!


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## AZ Jim (Aug 31, 2015)

Looks like the people served up notice.  I guess we'll see if it did any good.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

I hope the people are heard. I don't think they are going to back down. Government has misjudged the opposition to their military views. I worry it make spark violence, particularly since the Opposition to the bill encompasses a cross section of Japanese society, rather than special interest groups/fringe elements.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

I guess sometimes good causes do spark violence, particularly when governments have the military, the guns and the will to do what they want to do.  But at least in this kind of instance, these people would be the ones choosing how they want to live or die.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

I hear you, Debby. I sincerely hope it does not come to this. There is something beyond the word oxymoron, about people feeling they must commit violent acts in order to achieve/protect peace.


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## Ralphy1 (Aug 31, 2015)

I take the side of the government in this case. It is time to leave the past in the past, and the modern world requires nations to join together to protect the world from forces like ISIS.  I would be glad to see some Japanese boots on the ground along with ours and others fighting this common enemy...


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## BobF (Aug 31, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> I take the side of the government in this case. It is time to leave the past in the past, and the modern world requires nations to join together to protect the world from forces like ISIS.  I would be glad to see some Japanese boots on the ground along with ours and others fighting this common enemy...



I do agree with this thinking about Japan.   Just how long can they depend on the US to step up and protect them when the US is currently shrinking its military and apparently not really wanting to resist ISIS either.   The world is in ever greater danger these days and not being prepared is just making it worse all around this world.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

ISIS has provided a wonderful opportunity to justify 'war' in general hasn't it?  Maybe that's why the Pentagon continued to arm terrorists even when they knew that this violent offshoot was developing.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...cret-pentagon-report-proves-us-complicity-cre

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/0...report-us-created-isil-as-tool-against-assad/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-is...-the-fall-of-mosul-and-ramadi-in-2012/5451363

I understand what your point is, but from what I've been reading and hearing, the efforts to take down 20,000 sicko's is accomplishing very little so adding a few Japanese to the mix as a justification here....well, seems to me we'd be at about the same place.  

At the same time, never taking a stand against war leaves the door open to other countries or ones own, starting conflicts for selfish interests and governments already find that all too easy.  ISIS aside, at what point do our societies take a stand for peace and learning to work together?   The world is only in greater danger these days because governments have nuclear weapons available to finish us all off and the planet.  

If Japan's PM were to say that Japan 'will join with the world in destroying ISIS' and leave it at that, your points would be well taken, but they didn't did they?  PM Abe's  bill would authorize them to 'join forces with an ally' and considering the bickering going on between Japan and China (not to mention Korea's concerns about Japan) and America's angst about Russia/China economic ventures........the door is opening once again to nuclear conflagration.  Is that what you want?  And is this change in policy the result of pressure from America to change a policy that came about as a result of the last time they were bludgeoned into submission during WW2?  http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...pacifist-postwar-defense-policy/#.VeRx9OuEzlI

'....the U.S., which has called on Japan to assume a greater security role amid sharp cuts in its own defense budget, is likely to hail Abe’s initiative. The two countries will revise by the end of the year their guidelines for defense cooperation, which will be the first revision in 17 years.Abe wants the new guidelines to reflect his updated defense strategy, giving Japan a bigger role in any regional contingencies, namely on the Korean Peninsula....'

And at breakfast I was reading about disturbances in the relationship between Taiwan and China and in Googling it, it seems that the USA and Taiwan are somewhat close.  
So we're looking at USA/Japan/Taiwan 'friendships' vs. Russia/China.  Can anyone see a picture potentially developing here or am I concerned for no reason?   I can understand the Japanese peoples fears entirely.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 31, 2015)

We have had a pact with Japan since 1950 to protect them.  As of 2015 we have about 50,000 Americans there.


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## BobF (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby said:


> ISIS has provided a wonderful opportunity to justify 'war' in general hasn't it?  Maybe that's why the Pentagon continued to arm terrorists even when they knew that this violent offshoot was developing.
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...cret-pentagon-report-proves-us-complicity-cre
> 
> ...



The point you seem to miss is that if Japan has a problem, they should be able to *stand on their own *and *not depend on other countries to stand for them.    *We certainly can and should help Japan or any other country that has problems, but they should try to defend themselves and not just point to the US and cry for our military.

Those links you used seem to point to our current President.    The first was pretty preposterous and the other two not much better.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

Their current constitution does allow them to protect themselves.  They aren't prevented at all from doing that.  What the PM wants to do is to go out and participate in other countries wars.   Maybe you missed that part.  

The people of Japan aren't arguing that they should get rid of their army entirely and just hunker down and hope for a peaceful country or planning that someone else will come and save them if the need should arise, they're arguing that they don't want their government 'going out into the world and getting involved in other peoples fights'.  I would bet their fear is that the excuse of 'aiding allies' is how it would start, and would then morph into the same kind of attitude that was demonstrated by the Japanese government when that government decided to go out and start conflict in the Pacific during WW2.

I think I've also read a few headlines about the people who live in the region where the American base is, want that base out while the Japanese government are acquiescing to a desire by America to expand.  This little 'notice' from a JapanTimes website confirms that and I noticed a top comment by a Japanese writer where he referred to the US 'annexing' the land the base is currently on which of course instantly brought to mind the 'annexing' of Crimea and the subsequent sanctions by the USA against Russia.  Good for the goose but not the gander?
Many of the other comments by Japanese seem to support his viewpoint by the way.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/...ds-rally-against-u-s-military-base-on-okinawa


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## BobF (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby said:


> Their current constitution does allow them to protect themselves.  They aren't prevented at all from doing that.  What the PM wants to do is to go out and participate in other countries wars.   Maybe you missed that part.
> 
> The people of Japan aren't arguing that they should get rid of their army entirely and just hunker down and hope for a peaceful country or planning that someone else will come and save them if the need should arise, they're arguing that they don't want their government 'going out into the world and getting involved in other peoples fights'.  I would bet their fear is that the excuse of 'aiding allies' is how it would start, and would then morph into the same kind of attitude that was demonstrated by the Japanese government when that government decided to go out and start conflict in the Pacific during WW2.



And when they were invited by the UN to help in Iraq they were only there without arms and helped as they could.   I suspect that they really want to be full partners in UN battles, not just servants for the others.

Your anger is quite obvious but your positions are only yours and not all the others in this world.    Peace was the big mission of the English government in the late 30's, but look what happened of their mousy ways back then.   The evil ones took advantage and WWII got started with Germany, Italy, and Japan being parts of it.   England really got the short end of that mess.   Good that many other countries decided to stand for England.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

Bob, not anger, but fear over what governments do too easily to the people they are supposed to serve and fear that the current weaponry has the potential to ruin the world and cause such massive destruction that survival of humanity could be in question.  Do you think they will be on the front lines leading their men/women in the charge or will they be sitting cozy and comfy in some well protected, hidden place while they watch the bodies of victims of both their own countries and the others pile up?   Easy to foment war when they and their children (who will NEVER take up arms because daddy will see to that!) are safe from the suffering.

Apparently a lot of the Japanese people think exactly like I do.  And I'm not against a country protecting itself or themselves, but I am against the proliferation of weapons, the destabilization of other regions and the continual machinations of any single government to set up and maintain other governments that suit the destabilizer.   And that is an ongoing problem in many parts of the world.  

At what point do we people globally, start demanding and enforcing by our votes, that our governments learn to get along with others?   

Actually you're right I am angry as well as fearful.  I have two little grandkids who did nothing to start any of the climate of hostilities around the world and yet, in their next 70 years of life, they will be the ones to go without, to suffer terrible violations and pain, should people not rally together and insist on peace.  Last night I read about a Palestinian 10 year old who had his right arm blown off, his body filled with shrapnel and whose mother, in the midst of making supper while his brothers and little sister played around her feet was hit by an Israeli missile.  The neighbours who survived collected their body parts out of the rubble to bury them.   At what point does this become unacceptable?  When do we quit justifying murder by the thousands?


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Excuse me Bob! Do not undervalue the strength of the British during WW2. They withstood the Blitz for a year without flinching. Would any of us have been as brave? Whether or not Chamberlain was mistaken in his quest for peace, once war began  the Brits fought bravely for years before America entered the fray. The British are not a mousy people. Again and again you have demonstrated your negative feelings toward Britain and other European countries. Not everyone espouses your version of the American model of doing things, as many of your fellow Americans have illustrated time and again on the board. Also unarmed peacekeepers are not servants of those who bear arms. The only anger apparent on this thread would seem to be yours. Please stop attacking those whose opinions differ from yours. There is little correlation between Britain in WW2 and many modern Japanese wishing to avoid other people's wars. Perhaps they wish to avoid participating in Western Imperialism?


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby your eloquence is moving. When indeed will all lives matter? Future generations will judge us harshly over our inaction over the Palestinian genocide, "soft"or otherwise. Why can we not see that human beings must trump politics if we are to survive as a species? As a woman, mother, and resident of Planet Earth, I cry out for the innocent, NO MORE!


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## WhatInThe (Aug 31, 2015)

Japan just launched it's second carrier this month. Defense includes a good offense, you can't wait until the enemy is through your door. Participation in training or backing the same allies that might defend Japan one day is prudent tactically and diplomatically.

Side note on the ISIS problem being a side effect or directly from US involvement in that area. A theory or some say the Benghazi cover up was about arms deals that involve what/who we now know as ISIS.

 Question is this case is will Japan stay on the sidelines or jump all in on the war on ISIS which is basically a dangerous movement and not a direct military threat.


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## BobF (Aug 31, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Excuse me Bob! Do not undervalue the strength of the British during WW2. They withstood the Blitz for a year without flinching. Would any of us have been as brave? Whether or not Chamberlain was mistaken in his quest for peace, once war began  the Brits fought bravely for years before America entered the fray. The British are not a mousy people. Again and again you have demonstrated your negative feelings toward Britain and other European countries. Not everyone espouses your version of the American model of doing things, as many of your fellow Americans have illustrated time and again on the board. Also unarmed peacekeepers are not servants of those who bear arms. The only anger apparent on this thread would seem to be yours. Please stop attacking those whose opinions differ from yours. There is little correlation between Britain in WW2 and many modern Japanese wishing to avoid other people's wars. Perhaps they wish to avoid participating in Western Imperialism?



Totally incorrect interpretation of my post.   I never said that England did not fight at all.   I was taking the Chamberlains peace at any cost to have been wrong.   He quietly left office as things turned sour for England and new leadership took over.   At first Roosevelt did not respond to sending troops to England and Europe.   But we did have our industries turned on and were providing materials to England.   Eventually Roosevelt agreed and then we started sending troops to England for the big buildup for the channel crossings.

Germany was not interested in peace and let everyone know that over and over.   Peace does not come from peaceful folks alone.   It needs tough peaceful folks who are ready to stand for their freedoms against the killing and hateful folks all the time.   Mob minded folks do not understand anything but the idea they are going to be killed for their actions.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

You know, I started this thread as a sort of encouragement/incitement for the people of the world to actively PUSH for peace.  To show how a people who were caught up in a historic *government assault* on others, can look at their own history and learn to treasure peace and stand up for it and somehow it seems to be turning into a justification for continued conflict.  I think we live in Bizarro World or are caught in the Twilight Zone and black is white and up is down and there is no more desire for good for all.  Sure, let's all just give in and we'll quit talking about peace and compassion because it's a waste of breathe.  There's gotta be something in the water is all I can say.


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## AZ Jim (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby said:


> You know, I started this thread as a sort of encouragement/incitement for the people of the world to actively PUSH for peace.  To show how a people who were caught up in a historic *government assault* on others, can look at their own history and learn to treasure peace and stand up for it and somehow it seems to be turning into a justification for continued conflict.  I think we live in Bizarro World or are caught in the Twilight Zone and black is white and up is down and there is no more desire for good for all.  Sure, let's all just give in and we'll quit talking about peace and compassion because it's a waste of breathe.  There's gotta be something in the water is all I can say.



Don't give up your ideals Debby.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby, some of the more hawkish views expressed in your thread are just that. Pro militaristic stance. Not all support this view. Among many of the young there is a growing clamour for peace. What a concept! Where have we encountered that before, asks the Flower Child? All change starts small, sometimes with just one voice. Speak up, Debby!


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## BobF (Aug 31, 2015)

Debby said:


> You know, I started this thread as a sort of encouragement/incitement for the people of the world to actively PUSH for peace.  To show how a people who were caught up in a historic *government assault* on others, can look at their own history and learn to treasure peace and stand up for it and somehow it seems to be turning into a justification for continued conflict.  I think we live in Bizarro World or are caught in the Twilight Zone and black is white and up is down and there is no more desire for good for all.  Sure, let's all just give in and we'll quit talking about peace and compassion because it's a waste of breathe.  There's gotta be something in the water is all I can say.



Push for peace is exactly what I have been preaching about.   Peace does not stay with the folks afraid to stand for their rights.   Peace is only for those willing to stand and fight for it.   Those are defensive fights against the aggressive ones that want it their way or they will force their way.

So the US and its stand for peace is not wrong.   This is not a decision to continue war at all but a willingness to continue to defend our ways.   And hopefully Japan will be ready to do the same.


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## oakapple (Aug 31, 2015)

It's true that Chamberlain was naive, and the Government of the day in Britain lost valuable time, which allowed Hitler to build up arms in Germany, but after the first world war, I think they tried to do everything possible to avoid another one with Germany.When there was no hope of peace, Churchill took over, and after Pearl Harbour the USA and Britain joined forces.
Japan is another question entirely, they don't feel under threat from either IS or refugees/ migrants or anything else, and Japan has always kept itself to itself.


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## mitchezz (Aug 31, 2015)

People Power is on the move

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...force-to-cancel-press-conference-in-melbourne


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

BobF said:


> Push for peace is exactly what I have been preaching about.   Peace does not stay with the folks afraid to stand for their rights.   Peace is only for those willing to stand and fight for it.   Those are defensive fights against the aggressive ones that want it their way or they will force their way.
> 
> So the US and its stand for peace is not wrong.   This is not a decision to continue war at all but a willingness to continue to defend our ways.   And hopefully Japan will be ready to do the same.




Bob, I can accept some of the first part of what you said, but the last paragraph to be quite honest, isn't held up by real history or current events.  Sorry to have to say it, but after the hours of reading that I've done over the past few years, that is just how I see it.  Defending ones country is admirable, but in all honesty, funding terrorists, etc., in order to bring about the downfall of other governments or seeking to install 'chosen' governments is just not acceptable as a means to real peace.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when with policy we deceive!  Apologies to the Bard.


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## Debby (Aug 31, 2015)

mitchezz said:


> People Power is on the move
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/australi...force-to-cancel-press-conference-in-melbourne



A case of people forcing the authorities to listen to them I think and that's exactly what they should be doing!  After all, didn't those people vote for the officials who thought up this 'failed' idea?  Thanks mitchezz for the story because it's an encouragement and all the 'peaceniks' need to be encouraged once in a while!  It's generally such a discouraging world these days isn't it?  So stories of peace, compassion, generosity......so necessary as a help to the changers of the world!

Hey Shalimar, I'm pretty sure the Bard would love your paraphrase entirely!  Just as an aside, did you know that in all likelihood the Bard was a pot-head?  Yes indeed, I can picture him, sitting all mellow and peaceful, smiling happily as he reads what you did with his famous work.  (http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/b...-students-william-shakespeare-is-420-friendly  -  out of 24 clay pipe fragments found in the garden of the home of William Shakespeare, 8 had evidence of cannabis residue and 1 had the residue of cocaine.  Sounds like smoking pot didn't hurt his creativity.)


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

I agree, but there are many young people who favour peace also. There is hope.


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## Shalimar (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks  from me to Mitchezz also. Woke me up! Debby, so cool about Shakespeare doing the 4:20. Awesome. Wish I could have joined him. Lol.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 1, 2015)

War and the talk of war has always been with us, and always will be.  Read or heard something like that a long time ago and is an unfortunate truth...


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## mitchezz (Sep 1, 2015)

I'm glad it touched a chord with you Debby. It's too easy to become cynical and stories such as this remind us that we don't just have to accept bad government policy. As my political hero, the late and great Gough Whitlam, once said "Maintain the rage".


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## Shalimar (Sep 1, 2015)

Maintain the rage. I like that Mitchezz.


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## mitchezz (Sep 2, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Maintain the rage. I like that Mitchezz.



If you liked that Shal you would have loved Gough............decades ahead of his time.....dragged Australia kicking and screaming out of a long and conservative slumber.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 2, 2015)

Let me find my rose colored glasses...


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## Shalimar (Sep 2, 2015)

Ralphy, piffle. Lol. Take your tongue out of your cheek before you choke.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 2, 2015)

OK, then, let me dust off my guitar and sing Kumbaya...


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## Shalimar (Sep 2, 2015)

The future is not yet written. I prefer to err on the side of optimism.


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 2, 2015)

I prefer a good martini to make me feel optimistic...


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## Shalimar (Sep 2, 2015)

Fair enough Ralphy. You embrace alcohol, I will stick to activism. Salut!


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## Ralphy1 (Sep 2, 2015)

FDR loved a good martini in the afternoon and I can see why...layful:


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