# Italians over 80 'will be left to die' as country overwhelmed by coronavirus.



## Becky1951 (Mar 15, 2020)

I hope and pray it doesn't come to this anywhere. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...left-die-country-overwhelmed-coronavirus/amp/


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## WhatInThe (Mar 16, 2020)

I just read a comment/post where someone said almost all Italian fatalities were over 60 and/or had a pre existing condition of some kind. This triage procedure is supposedly for intensive care only. They must also note other conditions besides old age.


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## Butterfly (Mar 16, 2020)

Terrifying prospect, but I can see that in the worst-case scenario it might become necessary.  In practice, things like this are done in other areas of medicine, as in who qualifies for an organ transplant, i.e., a younger person with a better chance of survival will be given an available kidney instead of an older person with a lesser chance of survival because there are too few kidneys available.


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 16, 2020)

Once you get past the sensational headline the policy does make sense to me.


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## Ferocious (Mar 16, 2020)

The advice here for over 70's, is to self isolate (perhaps up to 3/4 months).  Myself and all my fellow residents, although we are not pleased with the idea,  are submitting to the advice.  However, a few miles away, there are a group of about 50 over 70's that meet twice a week and go rambling together, and they are saying that they are NOT going to be told what to do as the walking keeps them fit.  Now there is a conundrum.


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## hollydolly (Mar 16, 2020)

There won't be a conundrum Bill, they will be forced to stay home , if they don't comply they will face £1000 fine plus the possibility of arrest . People who don't obey these rules are putting everyone elses' lives at risk... 

They've already implemented it in Spain.. which is 4 times larger than the uk, by bringing the army in, as well as the police, to stop and question anyone out and about who shouldn't be...

See my posts here...


https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...over-70s-should-stay-home.47173/#post-1285156

When it is implemented it's up to all of us..who are younger and fitter to check on  all of our elderly neighbours to see if they need anything. leave them our phone numbers...  or put a note through their doors, offering to get them anything they need , and leave it delivered outside their door.

Each surgery or hospital should implement some kind of transport to take the elderly back and forth to appointments ( IMO)...


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## hollydolly (Mar 16, 2020)

By restricting the movements of people , and everyone complying... China is already getting back to normal....


https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-...nbE9vQ84mvhGvjDVgt4dTlGHKC5CpqR3VK5Dh53Ur3qK0


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## Sunny (Mar 16, 2020)

I have a question about "self isolating," but I think this discussion belongs in the Coronavirus topic, so I'll ask it there.  Maybe this thread should be moved over?


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## exwisehe (Mar 16, 2020)

I noticed in the link that a doctor said: "[Who lives and who dies] is decided by age and by the [patient's] health conditions."

That's not what I have believed since I began attending church at 2yrs old (while sleeping in my mom's lap in the pews)
I was taught and still believe that life and death are in God's hands alone.


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## StarSong (Mar 16, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> I noticed in the link that a doctor said: "[Who lives and who dies] is decided by age and by the [patient's] health conditions."
> 
> That's not what I have believed since I began attending church at 2yrs old (while sleeping in my mom's lap in the pews)
> I was taught and still believe that life and death are in God's hands alone.


In that case there's little point in bothering the medical community when believers feel ill.


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## exwisehe (Mar 16, 2020)

You're way off base there, my friend.  That is ill-conceived and unthinking.


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> You're way off base there, my friend.  *That is ill-conceived and unthinking*.


Why?  It's only logical.  If you believe that life and death are in God's hands, why seek medical help?  You are contradicting yourself.


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## exwisehe (Mar 16, 2020)

His post was deleted.  I believe his answer was un-called for and irresponsible.  Why would I not seek medical help just because I'm a believer?

I've stood by the beds of many believers who were terminal (including my mother).  We have prayed for the doctors and for God to give them wisdom and skill to perform to the best of their abilities.  

They, like you and me, seek the best medical help possible, and there is no way that detracts from their beliefs.   Sometimes, in God's economy, He deems that the ultimate healing is for them to be taken and be with Him.

So, to me, it is YOUR logic that is in question.


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## Don M. (Mar 16, 2020)

Hospitals, around the world, don't have the capacity to handle such a massive influx of patients.  Already, here, there are reports of hospitals delaying "elective" surgeries, and even putting up some tent facilities, so as to be able to handle the anticipated numbers of people who may need hospital care.  While China is finally seeing some improvement, Europe and the U.S. are still seeing increased problems.  If the events in China are any indicator, it may well be June before we see a leveling off of this crisis in the U.S.


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> So, to me, it is YOUR logic that is in question.



My LOGIC is that if you truly believe that God has the power over your life or death, you are showing disrespect to him by seeking human help.  Why not let him do the healing, he should not need puny human ''wisdom and skill'' to do his will?  All he has to do is WILL it.


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## exwisehe (Mar 16, 2020)

O.K. then I guess we should adopt this policy for hospitals: A patient comes in ill, the nurse asks if they are believers or not.

If they say yes, then she alerts the doctor that there is no need to come to that room, let the patient go home, suffer and die.

Don't forget, we have freedom of religion in this country, and one's religion should not interfere in times like this.


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## exwisehe (Mar 16, 2020)

I'll say this and shut up, Catlady.  Talk about disrespect. The greatest of that is NOT to believe in Him.


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> I'll say this and shut up, Catlady.  Talk about disrespect. The greatest of that is NOT to believe in Him.


In your opinion.
Don't forget, we have freedom from religion in this country, and one's lack of religion should not interfere in times like this.


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

Not picking on you XYZ, I just feel you weren't clear in your original post, #9.


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> If they say yes, then she alerts the doctor that there is no need to come to that room, *let the patient go home, suffer and die. *



According to your belief, if the patient suffers and dies it is BECAUSE God wants him to die, it's in his powers to keep him alive otherwise.  And, since you're such a believer, wouldn't you be happier dying so that you can finally meet him?


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## Becky1951 (Mar 16, 2020)

I don't care what beliefs anyone has, lets not turn this into a religious discussion please.


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## Lee (Mar 16, 2020)

Sheesh....how many more threads are yet to be started on this subject?

I've lost count of how many are going already.

Can't they all be merged?


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## Judycat (Mar 16, 2020)

You want to live?  Don't shove yourself into a crowded elevator while holding a package of toilet paper.


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## Sunny (Mar 16, 2020)

The tragic fact is, probably there is nothing left to do but to leave the oldest victims of this illness to die. Italy is partly in this mess because of lack of planning, but then it's easy to say after the fact. I think this pandemic pretty much caught everyone unawares.

So, let's say there are two victims, equally ill, one a 15-year-old, and the other a 95-year-old.  There is only one respirator, and one hospital bed available. Which one should get it?


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

Sunny said:


> So, let's say there are two victims, equally ill, one a 15-year-old, and the other a 95-year-old.  There is only one respirator, and one hospital bed available. Which one should get it?


Please don't get used to being the equivalent of a third-world country, which we seem to be becoming. There doesn't have to be a choice like that, there SHOULD be enough for everyone.  Our infrastructure is falling apart; our roads, bridges, housing.  You want to get used to that?  I insist my grandson grow up with a future.  I insist.  I may be past the prime of fighting for things, but others are not, and if we can't help the next generation live a full life, then, yes, okay, let's get out of their way.  Let's stop poisoning and polluting them with our nonsense.


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## Sunny (Mar 16, 2020)

Pepper, calm down. Nobody is saying that we want to get used to being a third world country with crumbling infrastructure, etc.  Don't put words in my mouth.

What we're dealing with now is a real emergency situation, not "the way we would like things to be."  If you were managing a hospital right now, and had the situation I described, with all other things being equal, which one would you give the bed to?


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

Sunny said:


> *Pepper, calm down*. Nobody is saying that we want to get used to being a third world country with crumbling infrastructure, etc.  Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> What we're dealing with now is a real emergency situation, not "the way we would like things to be."  If you were managing a hospital right now, and had the situation I described, with all other things being equal, which one would you give the bed to?


But, but, I meditated this morning, you mean it didn't work?
All things being equal, yes, of course, the person who is so comparatively young.  You did give extreme ages.


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## JaniceM (Mar 16, 2020)

But what if there were two individuals the same age, same degree of health, few if any differences between them?
Whether it's a situation like that, or whether one is young and one is old, who's to say one person's life is more valuable than another's?


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## hollydolly (Mar 16, 2020)

Think about it another way what if the patient was 6o ... and the other was 15...does _that _make a difference?...

apparently our government  have called for several other companies Rolls Royce included,  to start making more respirators, but it would seem the problem is not only the lack of respirators for everyone, but the lack of trained staff to use them ...and then there's the lack of  hopsital beds particularly in the UK , and no spare land like larger countries to build temporary hospitals nor do  we have the staff to treat the patients, although it was stated on the news today that many NHS staff will be recalled out of retirement..

That begs another question as to why someone who is in the ''danger bracket age'' would want to return to work  to potentially catch an illness which could kill them


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> But what if there were two individuals the same age, same degree of health, few if any differences between them?
> Whether it's a situation like that, or whether one is young and one is old, who's to say one person's life is more valuable than another's?


Well, you see, that's what a triage is.  A medical professional coin toss.


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## hollydolly (Mar 16, 2020)

You know what's a real sobering thought?... that any one of us on this forum could be in that position at any time....

Please God it doesn't happen , but the stats are that 80% of the population is likely to be infected with this virus, and the healthy under 60's most likely to survive it.... so this is why everybody here has to take really good care of themselves... because  we  could be the losers on the virtual  coin toss..


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## JaniceM (Mar 16, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Well, you see, that's what a triage is.  A medical professional coin toss.


Well unless they're basing it solely on which person is most likely to survive- and nothing else-  it sucks.


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## Pepper (Mar 16, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Well unless they're basing it solely on which person is most likely to survive- and nothing else-  it sucks.


Yes, that's what they must do, and it is the most objective thing to do.


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 16, 2020)

The advice here in Scotland is somewhat vague.  There is a reluctance to be as strict as in England, possibly because of the relatively low population density.  In many of these small villages, social isolation may well be a way of life for some elderly people.  I can go for a walk around and never see another soul - or maybe someone will wave as I pass.

Well, we're not 70 yet and we've little choice but to get in the car and drive to the shops.
So, we'll carry on as normal and avoid close contact with others. 

As for police - that's a joke.  If you saw one round here you would take a picture because otherwise no one would believe you.


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The tragic fact is, probably there is nothing left to do but to leave the oldest victims of this illness to die. Italy is partly in this mess because of lack of planning, but then it's easy to say after the fact. I think this pandemic pretty much caught everyone unawares.
> 
> So, let's say there are two victims, equally ill, one a 15-year-old, and the other a 95-year-old.  There is only one respirator, and one hospital bed available. Which one should get it?


Definitely, the 15 year old should get the chance to get the help.  I would say that under ANY situation, even on a lifeboat or starvation situation.  The old one already has had a life, the young one has not.


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> But what if there were *two individuals the same age, same degree of health, few if any differences between them*?
> Whether it's a situation like that, or whether one is young and one is old, who's to say one person's life is more valuable than another's?


It is better for ONE to die than for BOTH to die, if there is no other choice.


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## hollydolly (Mar 16, 2020)

Capt Lightning said:


> The advice here in Scotland is somewhat vague.  There is a reluctance to be as strict as in England, possibly because of the relatively low population density.  In many of these small villages, social isolation may well be a way of life for some elderly people.  I can go for a walk around and never see another soul - or maybe someone will wave as I pass.
> 
> Well, we're not 70 yet and we've little choice but to get in the car and drive to the shops.
> So, we'll carry on as normal and avoid close contact with others.
> ...


   Well the cities Glasgow , Edinburgh and Dundee et al, are densely packed like most cities in England although on a slightly smaller scale...  the population who lives in villages in Scotland is low compared to the population as a whole... and that's not counting the millions of visitors every year particularly to Edinburgh and Glasgow


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## Judycat (Mar 16, 2020)

Wait a minute. The 15 year-old is most likely to survive without medical intervention. And when a map is shown detailing corona virus cases across the country, how come only West Virginia is clear?


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## C'est Moi (Mar 16, 2020)

Judycat said:


> And when a map is shown detailing corona virus cases across the country, how come only West Virginia is clear?


No one ever goes there.


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## PopsnTuff (Mar 16, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> No one ever goes there.


And no one ever travels from there....they're all back woods folks....


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## Catlady (Mar 16, 2020)

Judycat said:


> Wait a minute. *The 15 year-old is most likely to survive without medical intervention*.



Likely, but not guaranteed.  Would you take that chance?   One is only 15 and COULD die, the other one might live another 5 years at the most or might not even respond to the treatments because of their age.

Sunny's theoretical question was,  " So, let's say there *are two victims, equally ill*, one a 15-year-old, and the other a 95-year-old. There is only one respirator, and one hospital bed available. Which one should get it? ''


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## Sunny (Mar 16, 2020)

Yes, thank you, Catlady.  That was exactly the scenario I was suggesting. Both of them equally ill, other things being equal, etc.  The only variable that matters in this choice is the age of the person.  Obviously, if one of them was deathly ill with some other disease and was dying anyway, I would not "waste" the resources on giving them a few more days of life.  

But when it boils down to the age difference, I think the medical help has to go to the younger person.  And why we have let things get to this disgusting situation is something we will have to reckon with, as a nation.


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## Buckeye (Mar 16, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> No one ever goes there.





PopsnTuff said:


> And no one ever travels from there....they're all back woods folks....



Well, mark me as "no one" because I was in West Virginia yesterday and today.


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## Butterfly (Mar 16, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Well, you see, that's what a triage is.  A medical professional coin toss.



I think it's a bit more than a coin toss; it's based on professional medical judgment.  But it most certainly has nothing to do with religious beliefs.


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## Judycat (Mar 16, 2020)

So we're talking about letting people die already? I shudder to think how things will be three months from now. Maybe the young people will decide ah let the boomers die.


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## C'est Moi (Mar 16, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Well, mark me as "no one" because I was in West Virginia yesterday and today.


So it was YOU!


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## C'est Moi (Mar 16, 2020)

Sunny said:


> And why we have let things get to this disgusting situation is something we will have to reckon with, as a nation.


I don't understand this statement.  "Why we have let things get to this disgusting situation" meaning what?   Do you think anyone could have stopped a virus that no one had ever heard of?  What would you have done differently?   

As for the 15 year old versus 85, the medication should go to the youngster.  The 85 year old has had a life and the 15 year old has not.  Easy choice for any reasonable person.


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## AnnieA (Mar 17, 2020)

exwisehe said:


> I noticed in the link that a doctor said: "[Who lives and who dies] is decided by age and by the [patient's] health conditions."
> 
> That's not what I have believed since I began attending church at 2yrs old (while sleeping in my mom's lap in the pews)
> I was taught and still believe that life and death are in God's hands alone.



People have be dying throughout human history that didn't meet triage criteria  ...long before the concept of triage was formalized.   A lot of older people died throughout history because limited resources (medical resources, food)  were focused on those most likely to survive.

Saying that's not "in God's hands" is like one EU leader saying the other day that people will die "before their time."    If you believe in God, when you die is in his hands and it is your time.


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## PopsnTuff (Mar 17, 2020)

Buckeye said:


> Well, mark me as "no one" because I was in West Virginia yesterday and today.


Meaning the actual residents that live there!


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 17, 2020)

Well, this is interesting cause I doubt it would be a choice between a 15 year old and an over 70.  The younger population, unless they have other issues are fairly safe.  That’s been said time and time again.  It would be so rare to have these patients, side by side, and choose between.

However, this choice, between patients happens all the time with kidney, liver, and heart failure patients of various ages.  The organ goes to the person who is the least sick, has the greatest chance of survival, is at the top of the list, and ready to be transplanted.

As for the religious aspect of the discussion, there is an old joke which I won’t tell very well.  Not good at jokes.  There is a flood and a man is stranded on the top of his roof.  Younger man floats by on a canoe; and yells out “climb on board, I’ll save you.”

The man replies:  “That’s ok God will save me.”  The water gets higher, a man comes by in a motor boat and yells; “Jump into the water, we will pull you into the boat.”  The man on the roof waves them off.  “That’s ok, God will save me!”

The water gets higher.  A helicopter flies overhead and the guardsman yell; “climb up the ladder”; we will save you!”  The man waves them off, “God, will save me,“ he yells.

The man drowns.

Once in heaven he says to God, “Why didn’t you save me?”  God replied, “I sent you a canoe, a boat, and a helicopter.  What else did you want?”

We have freedom of choice, we need to save ourselves.  God will deal with what’s left.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 17, 2020)

I am Catholic.  I believe in the God of my choice.  I believe in the devil.  I believe in nature.  This is a virus.  I could have died of the flu.  I am going about my life as usual, would go to the movie if it were open, probably.  Would eat out if I could afford it, but can’t right now, due to house repairs.

I go to the local store most every day trying to get toilet paper, will be out in a couple of days.  I wash my hands.  I am over 70, have a variety of other medical problems.  I am already DNA/DNI.  But the 15 year old you talk about could grow up to be a serial killer.  Lol.

He’s not getting my hospital bed without a fight.  I wouldn’t go on a respirator, but I don’t want to die at home.  I want to die comfortable at least.  It is what it is.  I think people should calm down and stop buying toilet paper so I could have some.

May the God of your choice bless you all.


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## Giantsfan1954 (Mar 17, 2020)

Interesting...Mickey Mantle got a liver in his old age,considering his lifestyle.
Probably a matter of who has the better insurance since they overrule the medical profession these days.


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

exwisehe said:


> His post was deleted.  I believe his answer was un-called for and irresponsible.


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## exwisehe (Nov 30, 2021)

nope


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## exwisehe (Dec 3, 2021)

exwisehe said:


> Her post was deleted.


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## exwisehe (Dec 3, 2021)

exwisehe said:


> So be it.


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## exwisehe (Dec 3, 2021)

exwisehe said:


> exwisehe said:
> 
> 
> > deleted.


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