# Be honest....Are you secretly doubting the bible?



## AZ Jim (Apr 8, 2015)

Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts?  I am well into my 4th quarter of life and I would love to have faith but having spent a lot of time as a youth trying to find faith in many churches, I have become convinced that there is no hereafter for me or, regrettably anyone else.  I will die with no hope of anything but that which I had before my birth........nothing.


----------



## Falcon (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm with you Jim.  When you're dead, you're DEAD !

If others believe otherwise (Wishful thinking), so be it, if it gives them comfort that's fine with me.


----------



## QuickSilver (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm unsure about that..  I just don't know what happens to our spirits after death..  I like the idea of reincarnation... it's more comforting than the "when you're dead you're dead stance..


----------



## SeaBreeze (Apr 8, 2015)

Although I was raised as a Catholic, there was always doubt.  I'm not convinced of any life after death, and I don't practice any religion.  Perhaps on my death bed I'll have a change of heart, some people only get religious when they're near death, and they're desperate for hope that there's something more after this life.


----------



## Josiah (Apr 8, 2015)

My conversion to non belief which took place in my early teens didn't involve much soul searching because I was never really committed to a conventional belief. I was familiar with the story of Christianity but because I wasn't pressured into believing that story I just didn't pay much attention to it. I guess I assumed my parents believed but we just never talked about it. So when at the age of 14 I decided to think about the subject, I concluded right off the bat that it was all much too preposterous to be true.


----------



## Glinda (Apr 8, 2015)

I am not a follower of any organized religion or doctrine and I never will be.  I don't consider the Bible sacred and it's really irrelevant to me whether Jesus existed and, if so, whether his mother was a virgin.  Although I respect scientific criteria, I have had some experiences in my life that science can't (or won't) explain.  For that reason, I believe there exists something more than what we can detect with our senses or in a laboratory.  Whether that means there is a God or an afterlife, I don't know.


----------



## Grumpy Ol' Man (Apr 8, 2015)

As we age and our mortality become more "real", I seem to believe even more in an after-life.  In '64, when I graduated from high school, I entered a college of divinity and studied to become a pastor.  In my second year of college, I seemed to "stray", more believing that career was mostly about becoming a professional salesman.  The more people you could convince to fill the pews, the more people were there to toss money into the collection plate, and the more you and your church would prosper.  Was "success" saving souls or building bigger churches??
Over the years, I've seen more tears shed over church related "politics" and family issues than any other.  In our society, these should be the two things that provide strength, not disappointment and stress.  I've served on various boards in churches and taught classes in churches and, up until the past 7 to 8 years, been a fairly regular attendee.  Somewhere, I lost interest in participating.  Today, it's more about seeing the grandkids enjoy the fellowship and watch them participate in children's programs, etc.  
I have a difficult time believing we just die and rot.  Certainly, the physical body we know today dies.  The brain, as we understand it today, dies.  Something lives on.  That something is not anything we can describe today or understand today.  That mystery... that unknown is what hold my interest.  That mystery is what keeps us going, wondering what is "next".  Someone put us here for a purpose.  Someone, somewhere is either "harvesting" an unknown from the human species that we will understand better in the after-life.  Or, there is simply no purpose for life... for us every being put on this Earth.

But, I'm not going to worry about it.  Not one of us knows when our time on this Earth is up.  So, we live each day to its fullest.  And, we live each day hoping the example we set is such that life becomes easier for those we leave behind.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 8, 2015)

The purpose of life is life. The "meaning" of life is what we make it. The idea of a God who looks after us, and of spending eternity with our deceased loved ones in Heaven is appealing. Who would not want to believe that? Unfortunately, everything I know about the world screams at the absurdity of both ideas. Its obvious to me, that the brain is all. When its gone, we're gone. Some of us leave before our bodies die. I have tried very hard to be a believer. I was the youngest Senior Deacon my church ever had. I just can not dismiss what science and my observations of the world tell me to be true. "Everything that has a beginning, has an ending. Make your peace with that and all will be well." Believing in the prospect of going to Hell, or possibly even worse, spending eternity, ( that's a very long time ), on my  knees telling God how wonderful He is, does not sound nearly as much fun as taking a very long nap.
 I am 82, and my wife died two weeks ago, so please don't tell me I will feel differently when facing the actual prospect of death.
 My personal advice; go and enjoy every moment you have _now. _Make someone else happy _today. _This is it gang. When we're gone, we're gone.


----------



## Warrigal (Apr 8, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts?  I am well into my 4th quarter of life and I would love to have faith but having spent a lot of time as a youth trying to find faith in many churches, I have become convinced that there is no hereafter for me or, regrettably anyone else.  I will die with no hope of anything but that which I had before my birth........nothing.



Of course I have doubt, even complete disbelief, about some things I read in the Bible. That is, if I read it literally word for word or as a scientific text.
Am I concerned about that? Not in the slightest. 

That there exists something beyond ourselves and that this something is sentient and responsive is something that I do believe and I also believe that I have some connection with it. That something is that which we call God and is largely unknowable mystery. I'm not happy to dismiss this as a fairy story because of some personal experiences that convince me that it is a reality even if the reality is wrapped in myth and other stories.

As I read the bible I find that Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about the nature of God using stories that ordinary people can understand, but which also challenge us to reach out and encounter God for ourselves. He also devoted time to fleshing out the Old Testament teaching about true justice and how people should interact with each other. He used stories here too, rather than impose another set of onerous rules to follow. If these lessons are followed then Christianity becomes a way of life that is spiritual, reflective and practical rather than an organised religion. Trouble is, humans always  want to codify everything and Christianity has morphed into a religion not unlike all the rest in many ways. Christianity is meant to be practised in community. Lone ranger Christians are missing the point.

Am I worried about the afterlife? Again, not at all. First, I'm not sure that there is an afterlife. Scientifically it is highly unlikely. However if there is something within us that is immortal then that something (soul, spirit, personality?) must the of same essence of the entity that we call God. If the essence of God is indeed love and forgiveness, then what do I have to fear? What do any of us have to fear?  Either there is nothing or there is something that will not be bad. If there is judgement, perhaps some receive nothing and are deleted but others go on to something else but now I'm just burbling because none of us actually know. 

Jesus certainly believed in heaven and made references to it several times but it was not his core message. His core message was love, forgiveness, compassion and service. He was countercultural in his time and is still the same today. The only source of his life and teachings is the New Testament books which is why I do take the bible seriously. Seriously does not mean that I pay a lot of attention to stories about magical virgin birth complete with wandering stars and choirs of angels or about graves opening up and releasing the dead at the moment of Jesus' death. I consider these stories to be literary metaphors. Seriously means I try to adopt the teachings that I can understand and relate to as my life principle and learn to be appreciative of life in all its fullness, including the good and the bad parts of it. If Heaven materialises, it's a bonus.


----------



## Jingles (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm of the belief that when you're gone, you're gone.
Physically.
But you'll always be in the memory of those still living.
Just like my folks, siblings, and friends are.
That's more than good enough for me.

Underock, My condolences on the loss of your wife.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Jingles said:


> I'm of the belief that when you're gone, you're gone.
> Physically.
> But you'll always be in the memory of those still living.
> Just like my folks, siblings, and friends are.
> ...



Thanks, Jingles. I'm with you 100%.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 9, 2015)

I was raised catholic and began having serious doubts at about age 14.  I do believe we have a spirit and not just a body, but what happens to it I've no idea.  It's comforting to think the spirit survives.  I don't dismiss the idea of reincarnation.  

People find comfort in the idea that their loved ones are looking down on them from heaven and that's fine with me.  My DH is catholic and it's fine with him that I'm not.  My sister, however, always tries to get me back to the church.  There is a running joke that the two of them will sneak me into heaven when St. Peter isn't looking.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 9, 2015)

That's the hard part, Ameriscot,
For the non-believer, it doesn't matter much if someone believes in something that you think does not exist. 
For them, Its serious business. If you do not believe, they really think there are horrific consequences, and are desperate to save you before its too late.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 9, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> That's the hard part, Ameriscot,
> For the non-believer, it doesn't matter much if someone believes in something that you think does not exist.
> For them, Its serious business. If you do not believe, they really think there are horrific consequences, and are desperate to save you before its too late.



Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it.  She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality.  I've given up arguing with her.


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it.  She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality.  I've given up arguing with her.



In the name of getting along we rationalize by saying, "What harm is there if they are happy in their belief." The answer is how often they are unhappy because of it. It destroys relationships. How much more worth while to be home bonding with your family, than sitting in a pew, repeating meaningless phrases for an hour.


----------



## Ameriscot (Apr 9, 2015)

Underock1 said:


> In the name of getting along we rationalize by saying, "What harm is there if they are happy in their belief." The answer is how often they are unhappy because of it. It destroys relationships. How much more worth while to be home bonding with your family, than sitting in a pew, repeating meaningless phrases for an hour.



Yes, it certainly can destroy relationships.  I don't live in the same country as my sister but see her every year.  So there's no point in spending time arguing, so we try to stay away from that topic.


----------



## AprilT (Apr 9, 2015)

Ameriscot said:


> Yes, my sister is also sure that our brother who has been 100% atheist for nearly 40 years is suddenly going to realize the catholic church was right and he'll come back to it.  She says the reason he is a good person is because he was raised with a religion, and that nobody would know what was good or bad without a religion or some type of spirituality.  I've given up arguing with her.



This type of scenario was one of the reasons, Camus' The Stranger, went on my list of favorite books, just for the last chapters really put it up there.  I wasn't a fan of the main character, but that ending was a breath of fresh air as it relates to this overall theme.

========================================================================================

DameW, I did like a lot of what you said about the essence of Christ, that was what I felt through most of my life and followed a lot of those beliefs in how I related to my fellow beings, it has only shifted some in latter years to some degree.  I did the whole religious thing back and forth, I would pick up the bible read it through and through, but, I couldn't ever get into it, it just read like a book of fiction, but, I did like some of the elements.  I did the whole bible study as a youngster and again in my late thirties even vocally accepted Christ as my savior, but, after many discussions at these bible studies and getting all the perspectives on a lot of the views from the people in these groups, my stomach began to churn and there was no way I could drink that kool aide much longer.  There were just too many questions that had no logical answers and I delved and delved and tried to quiet my mind to convince myself to just let faith thing take over.  I couldn't do it.  Sometimes, it does feel nice to think of magical things when all else fails, but, I know for me, I'm just letting fantasy take over, not real belief in anything, just soothing my soul for a minute, when I think mom, my sisters are looking in on me.  

Most of my family are quite religious, some to the point, I can't be in the same room with them for too long or my eye roll reflexes would cause me to have a seizure, but then there was my baby sister, she was a Jehovah's Witness, and I never tired of her company, she knew to leave it at the door she even spent family holidays  my other siblings and me; of course we rarely mentioned the holiday itself, and we didn't always gather on the exact calendar date or we made no mention of the holiday name as to allow her and her kids to feel more comfortable in joining in with us all and she didn't make a big deal out of it, this took some negotiating in the very beginning, but we all worked it out.

I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others.  Show me in your actions, as long as you have a good heart, your intentions toward me are what matter.  I've watched some of the most horrific things transpire from the most religious and nonreligious, neither better than the other if there were some holy place, either one may have as much chance in hell based in their, our actions.


----------



## Davey Jones (Apr 9, 2015)

I just wish somebody would shoot that "light at the end of the tunnel".


----------



## Underock1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Davey Jones said:


> I just wish somebody would shoot that "light at the end of the tunnel".



You mean that proverbial oncoming train. I hear you.


----------



## Rob (Apr 9, 2015)

I have difficulty in accepting any concept of an afterlife, be it a heaven or some form of re-incarnation, as both of these require the existence of some form of energetic non-physical 'essence'; call it soul, spirit or whatever, which can exist once the material body ceases to function. For me at least, all that we are is contained in that marvelous organ ... the human brain. It's difficult to judge exactly when 'we' come into existence, presumably slowly during foetal development as brain complexity increases beyond a certain critical level. We become what we are by a combined process of learning, environmental influences, self determination and genetic influences from our forebears and continue to change throughout our lives. When that organ and its support systems finally shut down and the electro-chemical processes that form the 'mind' cease to function, then all that we are ceases to be.


----------



## rickary (Apr 9, 2015)

AprilT said:


> This type of scenario was one of the reasons, Camus' The Stranger, went on my list of favorite books, just for the last chapters really put it up there.  I wasn't a fan of the main character, but that ending was a breath of fresh air as it relates to this overall theme.
> 
> ========================================================================================
> 
> ...



Very well expressed AprilT.  My experience are very similar to yours in the past  Right now I feel more spiritual and that seems to be when I am the most happy.  But you cannot push anything on anyone nor would I try.  The only thing for certain that I have found is that we will all die.  And I do not dread that for a second.


----------



## Jackie22 (Apr 9, 2015)

AprilT said:


> I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others.  Show me in your actions, as long as you have a good heart, your intentions toward me are what matter.  I've watched some of the most horrific things transpire from the most religious and nonreligious, neither better than the other if there were some holy place, either one may have as much chance in hell based in their, our actions.



Amen!


----------



## Warrigal (Apr 9, 2015)

AprilT said:


> I don't much care what someone's religious, non religious beliefs are or aren't except when they are arrogant in their approach toward hammer those beliefs upon others.



No-one is likely to argue with this sentiment but some of us suffer from a lack of self awareness. I hope I'm not one of them but only others can judge that. Jesus wasn't big on arrogance and said so more than once. He also warned against seeing others faults while being oblivious to our own failings but it's sometimes hard to remove the log from the eye.

It is these lessons that often come to mind because I have spent time reading them during my times of belief and unbelief.


----------



## oakapple (Apr 10, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Of course I have doubt, even complete disbelief, about some things I read in the Bible. That is, if I read it literally word for word or as a scientific text.
> Am I concerned about that? Not in the slightest.
> 
> That there exists something beyond ourselves and that this something is sentient and responsive is something that I do believe and I also believe that I have some connection with it. That something is that which we call God and is largely unknowable mystery. I'm not happy to dismiss this as a fairy story because of some personal experiences that convince me that it is a reality even if the reality is wrapped in myth and other stories.
> ...


I think this sums up perfectly how I feel too, and I certainly wouldn't have put it so well.


----------



## Furryanimal (Dec 5, 2016)

I rejected all religion at the age of 14 having been brought up a Catholic. So I'm not doubting the bible. I positively kicked it into touch 45 years ago!!


----------



## Wilberforce (Dec 5, 2016)

I have a very strong faith and am very glad I do but it didn't come to me through childhood. My mother was Christian but not truly  church going  and  I was diehard atheist in my teens .  It was in my early twenties that I started to think about it. I had a close friend who had a strong faith and she seemed to have something that I wanted, a kind of peace is the only way I can explain it. She never at ay time tried to push her religion on me but I gradually found myself changing to her way of thinking about a few things, not religion based. Eventually I started to get curious about her faith , I  read and investigated then a couple of years later  for reasons I cannot explain I found myself wanting to go to a midnight service at the local church, I went , it was packed with standing room at the back mostly with couples. Way down towards the front I saw one empty aisle seat, I sat down and someone reached for my hand, sitting next to me was my friend . I have no explanation for this at all but it happened.  After that I went regularly.

My faith has taken me through so much over the years, I cannot imagine my life without it.


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 5, 2016)

My thoughts in blue.



AZ Jim said:


> Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts?
> I do not doubt the Christian stories about the birth of Christ because I, along with many Christians and other readers of the bible, regard them a mythological stories, designed to recall certain OT myths and prophesies. Nor do I doubt that Jesus existed as a real man in the historical period described in  the nativity stories.
> 
> Heaven and hell are not physical places in my mind but when I say that I am living in heaven or hell on this earth, I'm pretty sure most people know what I mean. Rather than worry about reward of punishment after death I am much more interested in helping to create the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. This is not the Christian equivalent of a caliphate. It is a space, a sanctuary, where peace, love and harmony are more important than wealth, power and prestige. You can't do this by yourself - it must be achieved by a community, whether small or large. It can be found in a friendship, a family, a workplace or occasionally, a nation.
> ...


----------



## Lon (Dec 5, 2016)

AZ Jim said:


> Is there doubt in your mind about the Jesus story, virgin birth, heaven, hell, are you afraid you might pay later for your TRUE feelings, doubts?  I am well into my 4th quarter of life and I would love to have faith but having spent a lot of time as a youth trying to find faith in many churches, I have become convinced that there is no hereafter for me or, regrettably anyone else.  I will die with no hope of anything but that which I had before my birth........nothing.



I think the same.


----------



## tnthomas (Dec 5, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> _Life is now. Hope is now._ _Love is now._ _I believe that this is the important message of the Christmas nativity narratives and the trimmings - angels, shepherds, wise men, a stable, virgin birth - should not be allowed to distract from the core message to mankind - Peace on earth. Goodwill to all men._



Well said Warrigal.


----------



## Carla (Dec 5, 2016)

Great response, Warrigal. Incredible insight.


----------



## fureverywhere (Dec 5, 2016)

I've doubted the bible since Sunday school when I was very young. The instructor would read some passages and relate all this abstract stuff to the story. I would be raising my hand with a zillion questions with no answer. Sorry to screw with your class lady...But on the other paw I envy some of the women at my last job. Praise the Lawd 100% and it was beautiful to watch. This one woman Marie would sing gospel in the restroom. She had a lovely voice, I'm serious. Some of these women believed on such a deep level.

But no the bible never did anything for me personally. IMHO whatever you call your holy book...The Bible, The Koran, The Torah, something else...or a faith that doesn't have a printed reference guide. Whatever works for the individual ya know?


----------



## SifuPhil (Dec 7, 2016)

Nice reply, Warri.

Personally, having spent a lot of my life considering all the possibilities and having spent time studying metaphysics, I believe that I am too small and stupid to ever know the answer while I'm stuck in this meat shell.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Dec 7, 2016)

I found my faith in the Rubaiyat at a young age...


----------



## fureverywhere (Dec 7, 2016)

The bottom line is whatever gives an individual comfort. It's like trying to answer the question " Did G-d create people or did people create G-d?". I was raised Presbyterian and hearing familiar hymns instantly makes me feel warm and happy. Reading Rabbi Kushner can make me feel warm and happy. I just get grumpy with people who feel they know the only "true" faith, likewise those who don't believe in anything and try to push that belief on others...


----------



## Manatee (Dec 8, 2016)

A lady that I knew said her golden rule was "You don't preach to me and I don't preach to you".  It makes sense to me.


----------



## Butterfly (Dec 8, 2016)

I am a practicing Lutheran and find comfort in my faith. I don't preach at others and don't want them preaching at me.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2016)

Of course I "doubt" the Bible; in fact, I disbelieve most of it. It is astonishing to me that anyone would believe anything just because someone else told them they must believe it. Without proof, it's all just stories.

For those who believe in God, surely they must also believe that God gave us a brain with the expectation that we would use it.


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 11, 2016)

> For those who believe in God, surely they must also believe that God gave us a brain with the expectation that we would use it.


No argument here. Except that humanity did need to advance far enough to learn how to use our brains. Philosophers and theologians have always been with us since the days of Ancient Athens but the Enlightenment has yet to touch large sections of humankind.


----------



## aeron (Dec 11, 2016)

I have absolutely no doubts about the Bible.  It's a partial history, it's a repository of some very sound morality, it has rules that changed over several thousand years as circumstances changed, but as a record of creation to the existence of any format of afterlife it's a load of superstitious  nonsense that has been used to control people.

There is also the question about the validity of the KJV, the source of the contents were decided at the council of Nicea when the collapsing Roman Empire was replaced by the Romans Catholic Church,  a thing that has as much relevance and authenticity to Christianity as per the reported life and teachings of Jesus as a fish does to a bird.

Do I have doubts about the validity of the Bible as a record of life, the universe, and everything?

No doubts at all.

Its a load of dingoes kidneys.


----------



## Falcon (Dec 11, 2016)

Not that it matters, but I believe that it was Lenin who said, "God did not make man;  Man made God."


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 11, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Not that it matters, but I believe that it was Lenin who said, "God did not make man;  Man made God."


That's not such a clever thought. At the age of seventeen, without ever having read anything that Lenin wrote or thought, I came up with the same idea except that I used the words 'create'  and 'created' rather than 'make' and 'made'.

I thought that I was exceptionally clever to have worked this out for myself. The arrogance of youth. 
I held to this idea until much later when I came face to face with mystery.


----------



## Marie5656 (Dec 11, 2016)

*I am a Christian who tends to take what the bible teaches with a grain of salt.  What I doubt more are the people who profess to be "good: Christians but use the bible as a reason to hate.  They pick and choose what they will follow.  I am including with this response a scene from the West Wing where the President does a good job at shooting down a self-righteous person, citing chapter and verse of what the bible teaches.  I was discussing this argument with a co-worker who is much more conservative and his response seemed to be that it is OK to pick and choose which of God's laws to follow...because some were in Old testament and some in new.  I did not understand his reasoning.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs*


----------



## BlondieBoomer (Dec 11, 2016)

I believe that the Bible is history and stories, written by people who lived a very long time ago, through their eyes. Was it inspired by God, or some higher being? Maybe. I think a lot of our thoughts could be inspired by a Creator. Or maybe not. I think there is an innate belief in a higher power that is perhaps part of an old memory of sorts. 

I think organized religion is great for the fellowship and sense of belonging it provides. I don't think it is a prerequisite to an afterlife. In any case, while I think there is something after death, I don't think it is anything our brains can imagine. So much of what people believed in Biblical times and what we believe in our own time is based on "constants", the things we "know" to be true, that we understand as true. But scientists have demonstrated that even something as constant as the passage of time isn't really a given. Einstein's theory of Relativity and time dilution have shown that the further we get away from the Earth, the more time slows down, or at least changes. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/do-astronauts-age-slower-than-people-on-earth-2015-8

So 7 days in Earth time could potentially be millions of years way out in space. The concept of time and space being the same is something I certainly can't wrap my mind around, but it leads me to believe there are a lot more possibilities out there than my Earthly brain can imagine. Maybe even an afterlife. I still feel the love and influence of family members that have passed. Is it my imagination or wishful thinking? That is certainly possible. But certainty is something I gave up on some time ago, around the time I stopped believing that 5 minutes was an absolute, no matter where you were. Imagining an afterlife is no more unimaginable than understanding that the passage of time a billion miles from Earth is very different than it is here. 

Do I believe that God is a guy in white robes who stands on mountaintops proclaiming rules and laws? No. I believe that God is incomprehensible to our Earthly minds. A superpower for lack of a better word. I believe that love is closely tied to God because I think it is one of the most powerful emotions we have and I believe it far supercedes our Earthly bodies.

So I do believe in an "after". I do.  What it will be, I can't conceive. Do I believe in a higher power? I do. I don't think that all that "Is" happened just by accident.


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 11, 2016)

I am Catholic and I believe deeply that there is a God. I was never a reader of the Bible, and after all the horrible actions and cover ups of the Catholic Clergy I no longer attend Church like I did before. Even with all that I still believe in God and the afterlife. I have had quite a few things in my life that make me Believe that. One example I can mention was when my sister and I went to see James Van Praagh. There were over 300 people in the audience. He looked at me and my sister and said an Elderly man was there to talk to us. He said the man had passed away after leg surgery. My sister and I didn't move or say a word. He then said "The man is your Dad and he said that your Mother's name is Elizabeth and she loves to go to Bingo.(which was true) He also said that my Dad mentioned playing word games with me everyday." which was true. My Dad and I played Cryptograms everyday.   We just sat there frozen. All he said was true. There wasn't any way he could have known the things he told us. We hadn't spoken to anyone in the audience. He said a lot more and it related to my sister and me. I am still amazed at how he knew so many things , so that caused me to believe more in an afterlife.


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2016)

I hate to burst your bubble, but it sounds like you came under the spell of a very clever con man.


----------



## tnthomas (Dec 11, 2016)

Butterfly said:


> I am a practicing Lutheran and find comfort in my faith. I don't preach at others and don't want them preaching at me.



I go this route also; even though I do not attend a church, I am Lutheran by upbringing(grandson of Lutheran minister) and I worship God in my heart, but do not attempt persuade others to change their beliefs.   

That said, if someone wants to discuss religion, I'm willing to share how my faith works in my life, and listen to their position as well.


----------



## Lucretius (Dec 11, 2016)

No doubt the bible is childish nonsense.  If talking snakes, burning bushes, transubstantiation, or parted seas doesn't raise a B.S. alarm-think about the "resurrection".  Christianity 'stands or falls' upon the spurious dogma that the dead can return to life.  In my studies of comparative religion, none was found to be as juvenile and utterly unbelievable as Christian theology.  Mormonism and Islam are close...and of course in many respects imitate Christian theology.


----------



## Sassycakes (Dec 11, 2016)

Sunny said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but it sounds like you came under the spell of a very clever con man.



I've thought about this from when we saw him 10yrs ago. It wasn't that we even answered anything he said to give him clues. With so many women's names how did he come up with Elizabeth ? Another thing he said was that our father wanted us to know he was with the big M. That was what he called my sisters husband as a joke and her husband had passed away 2 months before we went to see Van Praagh. It still boggles my mind trying to figure out how he made those on target things. I'm sure sooner or later when I pass I'll know the truth !


----------



## Lon (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes  I doubt it but make no secret about it.  If you don't believe why make it a secret?


----------



## Lucretius (Dec 11, 2016)

"Cold reading" and the 'shotgun' effect...so many of these stratagems have been used the huckster knows which ones to employ for the highest probability of a response.  As with Jane Dixon, Brown, or Nostradamus, there is NEVER a conjunction of dates, places, and persons.


----------



## Wilberforce (Dec 11, 2016)

Sunny, no one told me I had to believe I came  to it all on m own, in the quiet of my own personal  thoughts. You mentioned proof, well I could argue with you all day about the amount of proof I have experienced personally as it everywhere but I won't. You see there lies the difference between myself and those on my side that believe as opposed you and the folks on your side that don't believe

Faith is that which you believe without proof, it wouldn't be called faith if God had a shingle on a corner store

The one thing that always baffles me though is those who claim there is no religion seem to do it in a very tough sort of way, using words like rubbish, and suggest folks who believe are braindead, yet the folks who believe talk about the faith gently and with compassion.

I would never try to get someone to come around to my way of thinking, actually I don't even think it can be done as it something that has to come to one  directly. I do however feel a sadness for those folks who have no faith simply because I know what my faith does for me and I when I  see folks with no belief system struggling with life's problems  I feel pain for them.

XX Jeannine


----------



## Sunny (Dec 11, 2016)

Jeanine, not all ideas promulgated by the religious have been presented gently and with compassion. The Old Testament talks about killing those who do not observe the Sabbath properly. For hundreds of years, how many thousands (maybe millions?) were killed by Christians in the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition?  How kind and full of compassion were the Puritans? How kind are modern fundamentalists to the rights of gay people, for instance?

The Muslims at their most extreme are responsible for most of the terrorism in the world, in the name of "faith." And even when not into extreme fanaticism, women have no rights and are required to cover up their faces and entire bodies, in the name of "religion."

Yes, some of the modern atheists have been pretty belligerent in their writing; maybe it's a reaction after having religion shoved down their throats.And maybe some of them are just not very nice people. Until pretty recently, not too many people dared to come out and say they were atheists or agnostics. Religion ruled the roost, and still does in many places.

As for faith being that which you believe without proof, well, anyone can believe anything they like. If someone believes in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus, would you call that "faith?"  Or would you call it nonsense?


----------



## Warrigal (Dec 11, 2016)

There is a respected book by James Fowler (1981) that talks about faith and faith development in the same way that Piaget and Bruner talk about cognitive development and Kohlberg does for moral development.

Faith as a concept has more to do with trust than belief. Everyone has faith, even from infancy, but we place our faith in different things. As we mature we move from one developmental level to the next and this is always an uneasy transition because our old comfortable framework has become unsatisfactory and unworkable and the new stage does not arise fully formed like  Venus arising from the waves.

Some people experience conversion at these times of flux, others refuse to let go of old certainties and become extremely rigid in their belief systems and practices.

Whether we are talking about religious faith or something more tangible like faith in modern science, the stages are the same. The adult stages 3 - 6 have these defining characteristics.



> Stage 3 *Synthetic-Conventional*
> Most people move on to this stage as teenagers. At this point, their life has grown to include several different social circles and there is a need to pull it all together. When this happens, a person usually adopts some sort of all-encompassing belief system. However, at this stage, people tend to have a hard time seeing outside their box and don't recognize that they are "inside" a belief system. At this stage, authority is usually placed in individuals or groups that represent one's beliefs.
> [This is the stage in which many people remain.]
> 
> ...


----------



## mrstime (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm an atheist, however I'm not a proselytizing atheist. I figure some people need religion to keep them behaving like decent people.  Then some folks use their religion to make hate sound reasonable.


----------



## Manatee (Dec 11, 2016)

Si.


----------



## oldman (Dec 12, 2016)

As a Christian, I sometimes doubt some of the things that I have read in the Old Testament, especially in the book of Exodus. I may accept it, but believing it happened is different.


----------



## boaterboi (Dec 12, 2016)

I apologize to the people whom I'm sure to offend but when I read the bible I found it to be filled with contradictions, violence and other nonsense. Many, if not most, self proclaimed christians have never read the bible and that can be proven by posting a totally made up bible quote on facebook and see how many likes and amens it gets. You can even make up the name of a bible chapter. No, I am not religious. lol


----------



## aeron (Dec 12, 2016)

All religions and that includes all gods are man made.  If nothing else that shows what hoorible societies there were and still are by just looking at what horrible gods these societies invented and now obey.

If I positively absolutely HAD to align with one then the URL below leads to what my choice would be!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster


----------



## Sunny (Dec 12, 2016)

I've always liked Bertrand Russell's "Decalogue for Liberals."  Here it is (I especially like the last four):

Perhaps the essence of the Liberal outlook could be  summed up in a new decalogue, not intended to replace the old one but  only to supplement it. The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I should  wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows:


Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.
Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.
Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.
When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your  husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by  authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and  illusory.
Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.
Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.
Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.
Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement,  for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a  deeper agreement than the latter.
Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.
Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.


----------



## Wilberforce (Dec 12, 2016)

I believe that the whole human race is ona learning curve, what was once acceptable is not now, child labour jumps to mind, yes I know it still goes on in some places, I just believe that those folks are not as far along as others..yet. The same is true for womens rights, gay couples  etc etc/ 

There is a difference between the old and new testaments. One might simply say that Jesus as the son of God came to us to update the handbook, so we went from an eye for an eye to turn the other cheek. One might further ponder wether God himself is moving with the times.

My faith is very simple, I follow a few biblical rules that don't do any harm for even those who don't believe.eg  I follow the ten commandments , do unto others etc


 I have said enough, this is starting to sound like me preaching and I won't do that bit I think you get my drift.

This is me being more personal now. I am a pacifist, I would turn the other cheek so to speak, I would not be judgemental, this is a fine line sometimes and is hard but I do the best I can. I accept all folks as friends whatever their religion, colour, creed,etc etc. I would not own a gun, no point anyway as I would not use it. I try to focus on the good in people rather than the negative, this does not mean I cannot see a problem in someone but I try not to be judgemental about it.

I have many frends who feel as I do and I strongly feel that the more folks that do the less pain there will be in this world and I will give you an example.


If for some reason that would be amazing  if everyone in the world woke up tomorrow morning and said. I will not pick up a weapon again.. can you imagine the difference there would be in the world immediately. Sounds carazy eh..but there are folks all over the world who used to fight who no longer do.. It is  dream but not a bad one to have.

Of course this has nothing directly to do with religion. it is simply a personal choice for oneself.


I do agree with something that one poster wrote though and that is about religious folks who fight, kill etc etc, my answer that is the same as it would be to the  proclaimed " devout" anybody  who chooses to ignore what his own religion preaches and that he is simply not what he claims to be.

XX Jeanine


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 12, 2016)

Warrigal said:


> There is a respected book by James Fowler (1981) that talks about faith and faith development in the same way that Piaget and Bruner talk about cognitive development and Kohlberg does for moral development.
> 
> Faith as a concept has more to do with trust than belief. Everyone has faith, even from infancy, but we place our faith in different things. As we mature we move from one developmental level to the next and this is always an uneasy transition because our old comfortable framework has become unsatisfactory and unworkable and the new stage does not arise fully formed like  Venus arising from the waves.
> 
> ...


I aspire to reach stage six before I die. Who knows?


----------



## aeron (Dec 12, 2016)

Do not go gentle into that good night,Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.


Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.


And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light


Dylan Thomas one of my hero's when it comes to poetry.

It is alleged tgat tgere is an alternative last line 

"Just grab your pants and run like sh*te"!


----------



## Shalimar (Dec 12, 2016)

aeron said:


> Do not go gentle into that good night,Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
> Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful, my Welsh father used to recite Dylan Thomas to me when I was a child.


----------

