# Considering Emigration or Retire Overseas?



## Myquest55 (Nov 3, 2019)

There is an unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C.  this fall (2019).  If this continues past the next election, we are seriously considering moving overseas.  We were looking at Ireland but the country just revised their immigration laws this past summer so that any immigrant must have proof of $50,000 of income PER PERSON.  

We could also consider The Netherlands but I am having a really hard time finding rules, other than needing a Long Term Visa and passing a Civic Integration EXAM.  We have lived overseas so are prepared for changes but would love to hear from anyone who has considered or made the move!!


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## gennie (Nov 3, 2019)

If I was 20 years younger, I would emigrate in a heartbeat.  First choice:  Canada (Maritimes or Vancouver Island), then New Zealand, U.K.,  any Scandinavian country that would have me.


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## Pepper (Nov 3, 2019)

You list your location as:
"Happily in Maine"
If you are happy, why leave?


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## Knight (Nov 3, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> There is an unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C.  this fall (2019).  If this continues past the next election, we are seriously considering moving overseas.  We were looking at Ireland but the country just revised their immigration laws this past summer so that any immigrant must have proof of $50,000 of income PER PERSON.  We could also consider The Netherlands but I am having a really hard time finding rules, other than needing a Long Term Visa and passing a Civic Integration EXAM.  We have lived overseas so are prepared for changes but would love to hear from anyone who has considered or made the move!!


Have you considered that the as you put it, the unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C. impacts the rest of the world?  Or did you notice in your own comments that entry to live elsewhere has requirements, you don't just go to live there because you like wherever you feel you would like to live? Have you checked out what the legal penalties are if you think you can enter & live wherever undocumented?  Or that no matter how much unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C. there are still both legal & illegal seeking to live here in America.


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## Myquest55 (Nov 3, 2019)

Of course we would only go as legal residents or emigrate with permission.  One does not simply get on a plane and hope to stay there!  With an international credit union membership, we should have no problem with finances - IF we could prove our situation would meet the requirements for moving there.  THOSE rules are the ones I am trying to pin down.  There would be much to do before actually making the move.  Am hoping to hear from others that have considered or actually done this.


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## Myquest55 (Nov 3, 2019)

Pepper said:


> You list your location as:
> "Happily in Maine"
> If you are happy, why leave?



Maine is great but will wait and see the direction the country takes....


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## Pepper (Nov 3, 2019)

Lived in other countries when I was young.  Would never consider it now, would never leave my little family.  

"the direction the country takes.... " how melodramatic, sorry.  I know what you are alluding to, as on this forum we can only allude! and share your concerns, but really.


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## peppermint (Nov 3, 2019)

We would never leave America....Not at our age.....We'll deal with it.....


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## Leann (Nov 3, 2019)

I recently returned from a trip to Ireland, partly to see if it might be some place that I would like to live in the near future. It is truly a beautiful country and the people are genuine and kind. However, I did a bit of research before leaving and also spoke to many locals while there. Ireland is an expensive place to live. 

They give huge tax breaks to major corporations, they have allowed Chinese companies to drill for oil just off the coast of Ireland, the rich are getting massively richer, they have the third highest rate of cancer in the world, there is serious problem with homelessness and the government is corrupt (not my words but rather those of the dozens of locals I spoke to). So, while I love the Emerald Isle and would welcome the chance to visit there again, I've ruled it out as a retirement destination.


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## Myquest55 (Nov 3, 2019)

Thanks for your input Leann!  I know it will be a process and a lot of work but we are certainly thinking about the option.  I was able to access a significant amount of information for Ireland.  Unfortunately, the required income for Ireland is out of our reach, as a couple.  I had heard that Canada has been overwhelmed with inquiries and applications so, thought it MIGHT be easier somewhere else.   I am hoping we can do online research before having to make phone calls.  Interesting how some requirements are easier to find than others.  Hope you enjoyed your trip!!


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## Aunt Bea (Nov 3, 2019)

I wouldn't let the current political climate in Washington force me from my home.

What will happen when the political climate in your new home changes?

Personally, I wouldn't want to spend the last few years of my life on the run or in exile.

Good luck with your decision.


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## norman (Nov 3, 2019)

Move to Kentucky, they will take anyone and show you love, I know because I once lived there.  I have read that Oregon is a great place to live. Of all the places on this planet to live the United States of  America is the best, just stop watching the idiots (news, political non sense etc) Arm yourself just in case ...and enjoy your grandchildren and pets and friends.  I do this and I am as happy as if I had a stable mind.


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## Grampa Don (Nov 3, 2019)

You might want to spend some time in your country of choice before committing to it.   It might not be as rosy as it first appears.  Is the grass really greener on the other side of the fence?

Don


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## RadishRose (Nov 3, 2019)

There must be some ex-pat sites on the web.


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## Catlady (Nov 3, 2019)

RadishRose said:


> There must be some ex-pat sites on the web.


In the past I was reading some of those sites, I was just curious not looking to live elsewhere.  Like @peppermint said, I would never want to live elsewhere than in the good old USA.

Many spoke about how they could live in Mexico on social security alone and could even afford a maid.  Then I read about some who bought a house in some community there and the government decided that the builder did not get the right permits and their houses were taken away from them.  It was some time ago, I forget all the details.  Here's an article about ex-pats in Mexico.
https://www.businessinsider.com/american-move-to-mexico-2019-5#you-should-rent-before-you-buy-1


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## Catlady (Nov 3, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> There is an unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C.  this fall (2019).  If this continues past the next election, we are seriously considering moving overseas.  We were looking at Ireland but the country just revised their immigration laws this past summer so that any immigrant must have proof of $50,000 of income PER PERSON.  We could also consider The Netherlands but I am having a really hard time finding rules, other than needing a Long Term Visa and passing a Civic Integration EXAM.  We have lived overseas so are prepared for changes but would love to hear from anyone who has considered or made the move!!


Here is an article I found, haven't read it yet.  Re the "nonsense going on in DC'' that nonsense changes every 4-8 years.
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-20-best-countries-for-expats-2014-10


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## Myquest55 (Nov 3, 2019)

Come on, folks!  WHY we want to go is not up for discussion.  I am looking for input on the PROCESS and if anyone else has faced a similar decision or made any plans.  We already made one move here - and after years of moving around, I know the drill.  We also have traveled and lived overseas during that time so have a pretty good idea of what to expect but yes, a trip before hand is a great idea.  I am just exploring options AND perhaps is it not as easy as we hope OR it is entirely doable.  Thanks for everyone's input.


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## Pepper (Nov 3, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> Come on, folks!  WHY we want to go is not up for discussion.



Good luck, but it was YOU who expressed your reason, no one suggested it for you.  If I didn't have my little family, I too would consider moving.  Or killing myself.


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## Butterfly (Nov 3, 2019)

I agree that there's a lot of stuff going on in Washington now, but there is also a lot of stuff going on in much of the rest of the world.  You might jump from frying pan to fire.  

The view  you get from visiting another country is not necessarily the reality of actually living in the place, especially if you have no real ties there (like family, etc.).  The cost of actually living (especially housing) in many places is a lot higher than it appears from the outside.

As PVC mentioned above, I also know several people who thought they could move to Mexico and live the life of Riley, but most of them have come back after finding that all was not what they expected and there were huge tradeoffs in terms of availability of services, lifestyle, safety, etc.


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## Catlady (Nov 3, 2019)

If money were no object and I didn't have so many pets, I would live one month in many places, especially Europe and New Zealand (heard it's like a Garden of Eden there).  During that one month I would visit all the towns and places nearby.  Since I can't, I live vicariously by watching travel shows on TV.  Sigh!


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## Grampa Don (Nov 3, 2019)

Pick a country and start reading their newspapers.  You can probably find them on line.  If there are problems, you will soon read about them.

Don


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## Camper6 (Nov 4, 2019)

norman said:


> Move to Kentucky, they will take anyone and show you love, I know because I once lived there.  I have read that Oregon is a great place to live. Of all the places on this planet to live the United States of  America is the best, just stop watching the idiots (news, political non sense etc) Arm yourself just in case ...and enjoy your grandchildren and pets and friends.  I do this and I am as happy as if I had a stable mind.


Arm yourself would be a huge deterrent for me. Many Americans are moving to Mexico. The cost of living factor.


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## hollydolly (Nov 4, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> There is an unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C.  this fall (2019).  If this continues past the next election, we are seriously considering moving overseas.  We were looking at Ireland but the country just revised their immigration laws this past summer so that any immigrant must have proof of $50,000 of income PER PERSON.  We could also consider The Netherlands but I am having a really hard time finding rules, other than needing a Long Term Visa and passing a Civic Integration EXAM.  We have lived overseas so are prepared for changes but would love to hear from anyone who has considered or made the move!!


 Just a reminder that not only is the repulblic of Ireland very expensive now to live   and also  they use Euros as their currency.. and Northern Ireland  is  going through brexit with the rest of the Uk currently., and no-one has any real idea what the impact will be on Southern Ireland. ..just so you're aware!!


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## Patio Life (Nov 5, 2019)

Look at Spain or Portugal. Low cost of entry, smaller income threshold.

After a year you can apply for permanent residency. Once you have residency you can move anywhere in the EU. I would highly recommend spending 3 months in a country you are considering (90 days is the longest time a US citizen can stay in the EU). For Spain you need to then return to the US, rent someplace for a year and have 1 yr of health insurance coverage for EU.


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## Patio Life (Nov 5, 2019)

For cost of living check this site. I use it when we are planning a long vacation and need to budget.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp


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## toffee (Nov 5, 2019)

goodness I would re-think that move = yes Ireland is lovely and not that expencive to live ; but why go and leave your country over 
politics and whats happening there - if that was the case in the UK we would all be gone and !!!!!you wanna have this Brexit hanging over you just a nightmare ' but it will come right one way or another just as USA will - people dont last forever believe me ……...


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## Lethe200 (Nov 5, 2019)

We had a friend who remarried, then got laid off and found he didn't have enough $$$ after the divorce to retire in the U.S. Wife #2 had grown up in Central America and spoke fluent Spanish and English. He was a redneck - his words, not mine - so it took him a while to adjust his thinking to the inevitable. 

They decided on Panama. English is the national language, altho he told us later that if locals know you don't speak Spanish, they jack up the prices immediately! Panama also makes it pretty easy for ex-pats. There is a large community around the country and in the majority they are Europeans. Americans were just starting to discover areas past Mexico, back then (around 2001).

A few things they learned during the *two year process of emigration:*

The paperwork takes time - A LOT of time. Nobody is in any big hurry. Ever.
Expect to do the "visiting visa dance" - probably several times. They would go down for six months, but have to leave for at least a day. At first they thought this was an opportunity to come back to the US to see friends/family, but it got expensive in a hurry. After the first year, they just went over the border to Ecuador for a few days, then returned to Panama. 
Biggest mistake they said they made was *not establishing a bank account that accepted US account holders but had an office in Panama, before they moved. *Due to the more rigorous paperwork banks now have to file on foreign accounts (so that the IRS can still get their traditional 'pound of flesh', LOL), many banks both in the USA and Panama refused to set up an account for them, flat out. They had to make at least two trips back to the US just to get this done - and his finances were fairly simple. I think all he had was a modest amount of personal savings and a SocSec check!
The smart thing they did was to *not tie themselves to any one area *upon first arrival. They rented, and moved four times to various parts of Panama over the next few years after finally getting their permanent residency. There are advantages and disadvantages to every place, and they felt strongly that moving around enabled them to pick the perfect home they finally settled in.
If you are not familiar with the language/culture, it can take quite a lot of time to grow accustomed to it. Our friend said he missed coffee - oddly they had to go over the border to Ecuador to buy good quality coffee beans even though Panama grows great beans (but they export it all!). He missed hamburgers - said it was hard enough just to find a decent burger, let alone a good steak - and pizza. On the good side, he lost weight and ate a lot of tree-ripened fruits )
That's all I can think. HTH.


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## Lvstotrvl (Nov 5, 2019)

I don’t think your going to find any country that isn’t in a turmoil at one time or another. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Catlady (Nov 5, 2019)

Lvstotrvl said:


> I don’t think your going to find any country that isn’t in a turmoil at one time or another. Good luck with whatever you decide.


It's like that saying, "From the frying pan into the fire''.  Or ''You know what you've got but don't know what you'll find''  Or something of the sort.


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## Knight (Nov 6, 2019)

People from all over the world wanting to come to America both legally & illegally. I wish you good luck with finding which country will provide you with a better living than what you experience now.


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## Lc jones (Nov 6, 2019)

I would try out the place before permanently moving, you never know until you live there what the pros and cons are of a country, I would also do research before relocating even temporarily as there could be violence in a country that you’re not even aware of and you would not want to place yourself in a position where you’re in a foreign country and you don’t have family and friends around you that can help you out. Also healthcare is something to be taken into consideration, I would also research that before moving even temporarily to another country.


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## Lakeland living (Nov 6, 2019)

Spent a lot of time overseas, nice to visit a long time ago..
  No, never even considered it when I retired,  From living here I have learned you should live where you think you might want to live.
Have seen many come in here and they can't take it. Winter scares most of them.


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## Lc jones (Nov 7, 2019)

When I lived in Europe I had a very difficult time with the weather there. I lived in Germany and it was overcast most of the time and I became very depressed. When the sun came out it was almost like a miracle LOL! I now live in Florida and I would miss my sunshine so much if I lived someplace that was overcast and rainy.


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## Myquest55 (Nov 9, 2019)

Thanks for the info everyone!  We are just considering options and I have looked at several embassy sites.  Not every country is clear about what to expect beyond a 90 day visa, or what they require for a permanent change - which could be discouraging for us.   Ireland is off the table - we cannot afford it.  Netherlands is a possibility.  We know someone who moved to Panama - went well for her and she is still there but south is not for us.  Guess we'll keep looking and thinking about it.  We have lived overseas before - not bad a all and we easily afforded a house with an awesome view.  Cannot do that here any more.  So, just thinking about it all - nice to have choices.  Would like to hear from any other ex-pats.


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## Catlady (Nov 9, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> Thanks for the info everyone!  We are just considering options and I have looked at several embassy sites.  Not every country is clear about what to expect beyond a 90 day visa, or what they require for a permanent change - which could be discouraging for us.   Ireland is off the table - we cannot afford it.  Netherlands is a possibility.  We know someone who moved to Panama - went well for her and she is still there but south is not for us.  Guess we'll keep looking and thinking about it.  We have lived overseas before - not bad a all and we easily afforded a house with an awesome view.  Cannot do that here any more.  So, just thinking about it all - nice to have choices.  Would like to hear from any other ex-pats.


Check out this ex-pat forum =
https://www.expat.com/forum/


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 15, 2019)

OMG you mean other countries have immigration laws that they actually enforce? Who knew?!!? Good for you for wanting to immigrate legally. You see the irony here, right?


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## jujube (Nov 15, 2019)

If I could, it would be Ecuador.  However, the Spousal Equivalent will not consider it, so I'm stuck here.


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## Catlady (Nov 15, 2019)

jujube said:


> If I could, it would be Ecuador.  However, the Spousal Equivalent will not consider it, so I'm stuck here.


Have you checked out Ecuador on the ex-pat forum above in post #36?  If the info is good, you could show it to your SE.


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## gennie (Nov 15, 2019)

If I were 25 yrs younger, I'd probably do it.  That time has past for me now.


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## Islandgypsy (Nov 15, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> Maine is great but will wait and see the direction the country takes....


We recently returned from a “foreign” retirement area - South Carolina. The grass did indeed look greener before we moved there. But the social issues, very difficult. And if moving to South Carolina is anywhere near as difficult to absorb into, I’m guessing actual foreign countries could be less likely successful. I hear a lot of people overly involved with the news’ version of political disaster. I choose not to believe or take sides.


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## Lc jones (Nov 15, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> OMG you mean other countries have immigration laws that they actually enforce? Who knew?!!? Good for you for wanting to immigrate legally. You see the irony here, right?


Yes and other countries villainize us for trying to do exactly the same thing they do, such hypocrites!


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## Islandgypsy (Nov 17, 2019)

Myquest55 said:


> There is an unbelievable amount of nonsense going on in Washington, D.C.  this fall (2019).  If this continues past the next election, we are seriously considering moving overseas.  We were looking at Ireland but the country just revised their immigration laws this past summer so that any immigrant must have proof of $50,000 of income PER PERSON.
> 
> We could also consider The Netherlands but I am having a really hard time finding rules, other than needing a Long Term Visa and passing a Civic Integration EXAM.  We have lived overseas so are prepared for changes but would love to hear from anyone who has considered or made the move!!


As a ftrequent visitor to Western Europe, I can tell my fellow Americans that many Europeans view the USA as the most dangerous country. They view our country as less safe than Guatemala, Nicaragua or that other dangerous country - Chicago


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## george-alfred (Nov 20, 2019)

Around 25 yrs ago we were on Holiday in Spain and happened to see a property that was for sale 
we had a look at it and thought about buying it.
After a bit of family discussion we decided against it - a decision I regret to this day not meaning to
live over there just an investment really.


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## Trade (Nov 20, 2019)

No, but I could kick my grandfather for moving here from Amsterdam.

I think it would have been way cool for me to have been born there.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 20, 2019)

So Western Europeans view our country as unsafe? And yet they come here in droves. The truth is, only certain parts of certain cities are unsafe, which I daresay is true around the world.


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## treeguy64 (Nov 20, 2019)

Blah, blah, blah.......I traveled, pretty extensively, as a young guy. Without exception, I choked up each and every time I touched down on US soil, and saw our flag waving, off the tarmac. 

Yeah, you can become infatuated with this foreign country or that foreign country, but, if you were born in the USA, those countries will never be YOUR place of birth, the place you first set down (deep) roots. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a flag-waving, super patriot. I know there's so much wrong with the US. However, there's more wrong with most other countries. If there wasn't, the US wouldn't be the #1 choice for immigration. 

Should you leave, permanently, best of luck to you. While I think you'll be making a big mistake, for many reasons, you might live out the rest of your days, in another country, with a big smile on your face. Only time will tell.


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## Capt Lightning (Nov 20, 2019)

Another issue that I didn't see discussed (or maybe I missed it) is that the US is one of only two countries that imposes income tax based on Nationality NOT residency.

An American friend here in this little Scottish village is being hounded by the IRS because she has to file tax returns in the US although she resides in Scotland and has joint UK/US citizenship.
Not only that, but they want details of any joint bank accounts she has with her British partner.  Even though she may not be liable to pay anything, the only way out of this hassle is to renounce her US citizenship.

There are a number of American ex-pats living in this area.  It's a beautiful part of the world, and relatively cheap in UK terms.


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## peppermint (Nov 20, 2019)

norman said:


> Move to Kentucky, they will take anyone and show you love, I know because I once lived there.  I have read that Oregon is a great place to live. Of all the places on this planet to live the United States of  America is the best, just stop watching the idiots (news, political non sense etc) Arm yourself just in case ...and enjoy your grandchildren and pets and friends.  I do this and I am as happy as if I had a stable mind.


I agree....


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## jerry old (Nov 23, 2019)

Book on Norway tells me Northern Norway has warm Atlantic sea current and
weather is semi-tolerable. If you have 'backwoods' in your blood, seems the place to go.

Too old, too sick, too scared to go world hopping, would like to see North
Atlantic in the winter, one more time.  Not on one of those mega-ships, a ship around 250 feet long gives you a good impression of the power within the ocean.
Watched those little fishing boats bob up and down, off of coast of GB, looked way too dangerous for me.

Posts-seems like a great deal of paperwork, countries want to do who's coming and who's going.  I can understand that due to the various groups that wish us ill; didn't think it existed before 911?

Capt Lighting's post is a bit of a surprise; also,  didn't know English was national language of Panama.


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## DaveA (Nov 25, 2019)

jerry r. garner said:


> Too old, too sick, too scared to go world hopping, would like to see North
> Atlantic in the winter, one more time.  Not on one of those mega-ships, a ship around 250 feet long gives you a good impression of the power within the ocean.
> Watched those little fishing boats bob up and down, off of coast of GB, looked way too dangerous for me.


I spent 4 years in the North Atlantic, part of the time on a 306 ft.   DE and the rest on a converted seaplane tender (AVP)  311 ft.  Our weather patrols consisted of relieving another cutter, staying within a 10 mile square for 21 days before being relieved by another cutter (or European weather patrol ship.  The winter months could be horrendous as the weather is usually between bad and worse. LOL  I was fortunate to not be prone to sea-sickness but some made one trip and were replaced and finished their 4 year tour on inshore rescue cutters or a lifeboat station.

The 4 weather stations were spaced along the northern circle used by planes flying between the stated and Europe, the furthest away being about 600 miles below Iceland.  Not the nicest part of the oceans during the winter months.


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## jerry old (Nov 25, 2019)

Mercy Dave, a passage through the North Atlantic, not a regular patrol!
That would be more than I could possibly want.
My one trip was on a troop ship, they ran us on deck for three hours a day so they could clean the holes.  This was in Jan. so you can guess the wind and weather make it a 'fun time.'  Darn it was cold, we only had field jackets; we were a motley looking crew.

The dependents of E-6's and above were in the upper decks, where they had
dining tables, cabins. The hubbies got to stay with their families. That is not right!
The females would come out and stare down at us, we were a filthy bunch
They would point at one or our group that was a particular looking waif and giggle.  We were on display-Grrrr!

Then they had the nerve to request any of us in the hole that could play a musical instrument, sing or dance so they could come up and entertain the dependents.  If so, they let you take a shower, shave and gave you the proper clothing to entertain these folks.

I asked a swabie, 'Are we in a storm?'
He looked at the waves, 'No, not really, this is the Atlantic in winter.'

I have more to say about this little cruise-later


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## Packerjohn (Nov 25, 2019)

I reckon I'm too old to move.  I have dreamed of it in days gone by.  One piece of advise I can give is to go & live in that country for a full 12 months before leaving home for good.  You will have to deal with a foreign language, different laws & maybe different values.  Seems every country I have visited the expats all hang around together.  You will always be a foreigner in a new country.  "There no place like home," good or bad.  Good luck!


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## jerry old (Nov 25, 2019)

Packerjohn said:


> I reckon I'm too old to move.  I have dreamed of it in days gone by.  One piece of advise I can give is to go & live in that country for a full 12 months before leaving home for good.  You will have to deal with a foreign language, different laws & maybe different values.  Seems every country I have visited the expats all hang around together.  You will always be a foreigner in a new country.  "There no place like home," good or bad.  Good luck!


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## gamboolman (Dec 7, 2019)

MQ55
Here is a link to article with links on expats retiring overseas
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f32/how-about-a-forum-for-expat-retirement-75907.html

For what it's worth.....I have been working the oilpatch since in West Africa since 2003.  Went Permanent Married Accompanied status in 2008 and ms. gamboolgal has been with me for almost 12 years now in Equatorial Guinea and Nigeria.  No one vacations in the places we live and work in.

We are retiring back to our home in Texas in about 3 weeks.  We will arrive to Texas on 31-Dec-19 and 1st day of retirement is 1-Jan-20.  Almost 42 year of the oilfield is enuff......
I'm looking forward to full-time chasing ms gamboolgal buck neckid around our old 4 poster in Texas....

We hope to never get another stamp in our passports ever again.

Lifes A Dance And You Learn As You Go.....
gamboolman....


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## Packerjohn (Dec 7, 2019)

Thought about retirement in a warm place many times but as I get older I like heat less & less.  Think I will stay here & enjoy the 4 seasons.  Don't like tourist places too much although I have travelled to over 65 countries in my life.  "Home is where the heart is".  There is no paradise here on earth but some places sure are better than others.  Anyway, you sure have had some colourful experiences.  Ever think about writing a book?


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## Liberty (Dec 7, 2019)

gamboolman said:


> MQ55
> Here is a link to article with links on expats retiring overseas
> http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f32/how-about-a-forum-for-expat-retirement-75907.html
> 
> ...


You guys "hook 'em horns"...come on back home to Texas!


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## Manatee (Dec 12, 2019)

I have visited 18 countries and some other places, but I won't be leaving Florida.  We have reached the point where travel is too much work.


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## Liberty (Dec 13, 2019)

Manatee said:


> I have visited 18 countries and some other places, but I won't be leaving Florida.  We have reached the point where travel is too much work.


Ditto for us here in the Texas Gulf Coast/Hill Country area.  Its all about getting "value received".  Travel is a pain and the pleasure needs to balance out for value received.


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