# A COVID Surge Overwhelming Hospitals, Raising Fears of Rationed Care



## SeaBreeze (Sep 5, 2021)

With the new variants underway, we have to unite in our country to take this pandemic seriously, get vaccinated, wear masks when recommended and follow common sense guidelines to avoid further spread of coronavirus.



> The U.S. health care system is again buckling under the weight of a COVID-19 surge that has filled more than 100,000 hospital beds nationwide and forced some states to consider enacting "crisis standards of care" — a last resort plan for rationing medical care during a catastrophic event.
> 
> The idea is an alarming sign of how the delta variant has ripped through large swaths of the country — primarily sickening the unvaccinated and straining an already depleted health care workforce.
> 
> ...



https://www.npr.org/sections/health...helming-hospitals-raising-fears-rationed-care


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## Sunny (Sep 6, 2021)

Today's paper has a front page article about the recent surge in Florida, including a surge in Covid deaths, since there are so many older people living in that state. Most of the deaths, of course, are among people who are not vaccinated.  How sad, and how unnecessary.


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## Don M. (Sep 6, 2021)

One of our granddaughters is a nurse at a smaller rural hospital.  Earlier this year, they were swamped with Virus patients being brought in from a couple of the "tourist area" hospitals.  In recent weeks, they have declined accepting any patients from these areas, so they can return to giving their services to those in need, in their immediate area, for the normal illnesses/treatments. 

IMO, those who are unvaccinated, and/or refuse to practice the mask, distancing, etc., recommendations, should be isolated in a hospital wing, or tent in the parking lot, and given some Ivermectin to treat the "parasite" that seems to be infecting their brains.


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## StarSong (Sep 6, 2021)

Although I regret my increasingly hardened position, the truth is I have less and less sympathy for people who _can be _vaccinated but refuse, then become seriously ill or die from Covid.


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## Irwin (Sep 6, 2021)

Their ideology is literally killing them...

*Anti-Vaxxer Turns Vaccine Advocate After Husband Dies From COVID-19*
"We thought the vaccine was rushed,” Lowe said. “We thought it was more about money and power than about Americans and protecting the people."
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/


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## oldiebutgoody (Sep 6, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Their ideology is literally killing them...
> 
> *Anti-Vaxxer Turns Vaccine Advocate After Husband Dies From COVID-19*
> "We thought the vaccine was rushed,” Lowe said. “We thought it was more about money and power than about Americans and protecting the people."
> https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/





Sadly, so many people lack common sense. The result ~ another needless death like that one.


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## MrPants (Sep 6, 2021)

I think most everyone that can be convinced to get the vaccine already has. The others are hard core disbelievers who'll never see things differently even with real life stories as linked to the above post. 

The majority of vaccines should be sent to areas around the world where people want to get vaccinated but can't because of the lack of vaccine in their countries. I know there's a plan for this (COVAX) but I haven't heard a lot about how much vaccine has been donated by various countries that have largely completed most of their own vaccination efforts. I doubt there will be any large scale booster shot requirement for at least months from now.


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## Buckeye (Sep 6, 2021)

Here's what's going on in Texas.  It ain't pretty

Covid overwhelming hospitals


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## Buckeye (Sep 6, 2021)

As an aside, one of my older brothers is unvaxxed, as is his wife.  They both have some serious health issues, and their doctors have advised them to not be vaxxed.  I think it is a mistake, but I don't argue with him about it, and he respects my decision to be vaxxed.  He doesn't totally self isolate, but it is pretty close.  Trips are restricted to mostly doctor appointments and other necessaries, and he is double masked and keeps a safe distance.  His wife stays at home.

And I will continue to pray for their safety and health.


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## Irwin (Sep 6, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> As an aside, one of my older brothers is unvaxxed, as is his wife.  They both have some serious health issues, and their doctors have advised them to not be vaxxed.  I think it is a mistake, but I don't argue with him about it, and he respects my decision to be vaxxed.  He doesn't totally self isolate, but it is pretty close.  Trips are restricted to mostly doctor appointments and other necessaries, and he is double masked and keeps a safe distance.  His wife stays at home.
> 
> And I will continue to pray for their safety and health.


Retired people such as us can avoid unnecessary or unwanted social interactions, and wear a mask when it's unavoidable, which provides pretty good protection. I'm fully vaccinated, but I still wear a mask when I have to be around people and I social distance myself from unmasked people, even when I'm wearing a mask, since it mainly protects the spread of the virus more so than the contraction of it.

It's truly baffling that so many people go without masks. It's only a minor inconvenience that could save your life and allow the economy to recover.


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## Butterfly (Sep 6, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> .





Irwin said:


> Their ideology is literally killing them...
> 
> *Anti-Vaxxer Turns Vaccine Advocate After Husband Dies From COVID-19*
> "We thought the vaccine was rushed,” Lowe said. “We thought it was more about money and power than about Americans and protecting the people."
> https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/



Frankly, I wouldn't care if it was about money and power, I'd still get the vaccine.  In a case where my life might be at stake, I'm not about to quibble about who's making money by saving my life.


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## MarciKS (Sep 6, 2021)

a hospital in a neighboring county here has been struggling to get oxygen to the hospital. people need to wake up before it's too late. yes there's a chance you may still get covid after the vaccine. supposedly not as severe. that's what they were designed for. not for eradicating it. 75-80% of the deaths here are in unvaccinated folks.


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## Sunny (Sep 7, 2021)

On the news yesterday:

The state with the lowest vaccination rate = South Carolina
The state with the highest death rate from Covid = South Carolina

Reach your own conclusions.


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## Brookswood (Sep 7, 2021)

Butterfly said:


> Frankly, I wouldn't care if it was about money and power, I'd still get the vaccine.  In a case where my life might be at stake, I'm not about to quibble about who's making money by saving my life.I just


I just read about an athlete who signed a contract worth over two hundred million dollars. And an actress who was paid 20 million for one movie and is now suing because she thinks they owe her 100 million for the movie. 

Now, that is my idea of excess spending on something useless.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 7, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> With the new variants underway, we have to unite in our country to take this pandemic seriously, get vaccinated, wear masks when recommended and follow common sense guidelines to avoid further spread of coronavirus.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/health...helming-hospitals-raising-fears-rationed-care


From your mouth to the ears of the unvaccinated!


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 7, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Although I regret my increasingly hardened position, the truth is I have less and less sympathy for people who _can be _vaccinated but refuse, then become seriously ill or die from Covid.


I'm very happy to pay for vaccinations and for treatment for people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons (there really are some conditions) and for treatment for the few who get _serious _breakthrough problems.  (I know -- I must be a socialist.)  (sigh)  However, I'm really not happy about paying for treatment for those who can be vaccinated and won't be.  And I'm certainly not happy about paying for Remdesivir shots at $1000 (or is it $2000 -- I don't remember) a shot for people who won't get vaccinated and don't want to end up in the hospital.  Neither am I happy about paying for people to be on ECMO!

"ECMO stands for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. The ECMO machine is similar to the heart-lung by-pass machine used in open-heart surgery. It pumps and oxygenates a patient's blood outside the body, allowing the heart and lungs to rest. When you are connected to an ECMO, blood flows through tubing to an artificial lung in the machine that adds oxygen and takes out carbon dioxide; then the blood is warmed to body temperature and pumped back into your body."

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/treatments/extracorporeal-membrane-oxygenation
​


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 7, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Retired people such as us can avoid unnecessary or unwanted social interactions, and wear a mask when it's unavoidable, which provides pretty good protection. I'm fully vaccinated, but I still wear a mask when I have to be around people and I social distance myself from unmasked people, even when I'm wearing a mask, since it mainly protects the spread of the virus more so than the contraction of it.
> 
> It's truly baffling that so many people go without masks. It's only a minor inconvenience that could save your life and allow the economy to recover.


Ask them if they plan to shout "hoorah!" the next time their surgical staff tells them it's their right not to wear masks.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 7, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> a hospital in a neighboring county here has been struggling to get oxygen to the hospital. people need to wake up before it's too late. yes there's a chance you may still get covid after the vaccine. supposedly not as severe. that's what they were designed for. not for eradicating it. 75-80% of the deaths here are in unvaccinated folks.


I'm in FL.  In my area the water company uses oxygen to purify the water.  We're being asked to conserve water because they're running very low.  I _think _I heard on the news last week that they had a one week's supply on hand.


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## Tish (Sep 7, 2021)

SeaBreeze said:


> With the new variants underway, we have to unite in our country to take this pandemic seriously, get vaccinated, wear masks when recommended and follow common sense guidelines to avoid further spread of coronavirus.


Couldn't agree with you more!
For the last week here we have been seeing triple and four digits of new cases every day.


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## Irwin (Sep 7, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Ask them if they plan to shout "hoorah!" the next time their surgical staff tells them it's their right not to wear masks.


When they catch covid, they should have to make an appointment to get treated rather than clogging up the emergency rooms and they should be given the lowest priority when being accepted into hospitals. A vaccinated person with an ingrown toenail should be treated before unvaccinated people with covid.


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## Meanderer (Sep 7, 2021)

My guess is that there have always been people who were against vaccinations in general, and have always refused them.


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## Warrigal (Sep 7, 2021)

Listening to the radio this morning I heard that even though Sydney is currently in lockdown and, not withstanding the rush to get people vaccinated, we will still be facing a surge in hospitalisations in mid October. Then I listened to an intensive care specialist doctor and and a practising nurse dealing with Covid cases. Staffing is going to be a serious problem, not just in the city but also in the more remote parts of the state. Finding additional nurses is going to be very difficult. It is one thing to say that beds will be made available but who will be there to look after the sick?

It is beholden to all of us to do our best to keep the infection rate to the lowest level possible. God help us all if the hospital doctors and nurses burn out and quit the profession.


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## Pecos (Sep 7, 2021)

Sunny said:


> On the news yesterday:
> 
> The state with the lowest vaccination rate = South Carolina
> The state with the highest death rate from Covid = South Carolina
> ...


My wife and I live in SC and what we are seeing here is disgusting and frightening.


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## win231 (Sep 8, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> As an aside, one of my older brothers is unvaxxed, as is his wife.  They both have some serious health issues, and their doctors have advised them to not be vaxxed.  I think it is a mistake, but I don't argue with him about it, and he respects my decision to be vaxxed.  He doesn't totally self isolate, but it is pretty close.  Trips are restricted to mostly doctor appointments and other necessaries, and he is double masked and keeps a safe distance.  His wife stays at home.
> 
> And I will continue to pray for their safety and health.


Why not ask them why their doctor advised them against the vaccine?


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## terry123 (Sep 8, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Here's what's going on in Texas.  It ain't pretty
> 
> Covid overwhelming hospitals


Yep its pretty bad here.  We hear new stats every morning on the news.  I am thankful my family and friends have got the vaccines and wear our masks.


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## Chris21E (Sep 8, 2021)

What does not make sense is the possible reasons, most of us have health issues and made though it fine for the most part, sure their choice.  I've been vaccinated for pneumonia as well.  

Some are losing their jobs as well over this, No one convince either way on the matter, I decided that a vaccine was better than the actual virus. So some are understanding that a bit late. No one convinced me of anything. Tired of the talking heads over this issue.

Being senior is  hard, that and being with added sickness is worse as we have learned.

Wondering about the third dose we shall see...


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## Irwin (Sep 8, 2021)

The head of Jefferson County Public Health pulled the agency’s three COVID-19 vaccination vans off the road over Labor Day weekend after nurses and medical staff administering shots to the public were jeered at and harassed by passersby.​​One driver, she said, ran over and destroyed temporary signs the clinic had put up around its vaccine tent. That same day, someone threw unidentified liquid at a public health nurse who was working a different mobile clinic stationed in front of a Jefferson County restaurant, Comstock said.​​“Additional cars drove by screaming obscenities at vaccine staff and throwing garbage at them,” she said. “I will not put the hard-working public health staff in harm’s way.”​https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/08/jefferson-county-covid-vaccine-clinic-halted/​
Crazy bastards.


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## Brookswood (Sep 8, 2021)

Tough times for ICU and ER people.


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 8, 2021)

The local infection rate is approx. 3.28%.  Hospitalization/ intensive care cases are on the rise.

The city implemented a vaccine mandate for employees that went into effect today.  The police union is digging in its heels in opposition.  The union reported that only 58% of the police department is vaccinated.

Schools opened today with masks and  proof of vaccination required or weekly testing for eligible students and staff.

I’m hoping that a J&J booster is available by early October.

At this point my main concern is doing what is right for me.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> When they catch covid, they should have to make an appointment to get treated rather than clogging up the emergency rooms and they should be given the lowest priority when being accepted into hospitals. A vaccinated person with an ingrown toenail should be treated before unvaccinated people with covid.


Idaho is now rationing care for *every*one.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 8, 2021)

Meanderer said:


> My guess is that there have always been people who were against vaccinations in general, and have always refused them.


Yes, but nothing like  this!  Remember the measles outbreak a few years ago?


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 8, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Listening to the radio this morning I heard that even though Sydney is currently in lockdown and, not withstanding the rush to get people vaccinated, we will still be facing a surge in hospitalisations in mid October. Then I listened to an intensive care specialist doctor and and a practising nurse dealing with Covid cases. Staffing is going to be a serious problem, not just in the city but also in the more remote parts of the state. Finding additional nurses is going to be very difficult. It is one thing to say that beds will be made available but who will be there to look after the sick?
> 
> It is beholden to all of us to do our best to keep the infection rate to the lowest level possible. God help us all if the hospital doctors and nurses burn out and quit the profession.


Many have.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 8, 2021)

terry123 said:


> Yep its pretty bad here.  We hear new stats every morning on the news.  I am thankful my family and friends have got the vaccines and wear our masks.


Florida's governor several months ago stopped reporting daily stats.  No one has been able to get them.  They're given out only weekly.  I think our Secretary of Agriculture is suing him for them. 

We have a strange political system.  We have three cabinet members including the governor and all vote on various things.  They're all elected.  The governor and attorney general are Republicans (the governor is running for president on Trump's ticket) and the Secretary of Agriculture is a Democrat.  Her department is also responsible for consumer affairs.  She's currently running for governor.


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## suds00 (Sep 8, 2021)

people must act responsibly and get the vaccine


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## Brookswood (Sep 8, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> Idaho is now rationing care for *every*one.



A week or so ago the guv warned this might happen when he activated the National Guard to help out in hospitals and free up medical staff to deal with sick patients.  

It's mainly in the Norther Part of the state at this time.

https://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/article254048448.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/id...northern-parts-state-due-covid-19-2021-09-08/



> Sept 7 (Reuters) - Idaho on Tuesday activated "crisis standards of care" to allow for healthcare rationing at hospitals in northern parts of the state due to a surge in COVID-19 patients requiring hospitalization.
> 
> The activation in the Panhandle and North Central health districts follows a severe shortage of staffing and available beds in those areas, the state's health department said in a statement.


Unfortunately, the situation also effects patients who are in the ICU for non-Covid reasons.   



> At Kootenai Health — the largest hospital in northern Idaho — some patients are waiting for long periods for beds to open up in the full intensive care unit, said Dr. Robert Scoggins, the chief of staff. Inside the ICU, one critical care nurse might be supervising up to six patients with the help of two other non-critical care nurses. That's a big departure from the usual one ICU nurse for one ICU patient ratio, he said.





> On Monday, the Coeur d'Alene hospital started moving some coronavirus patients into its nearby conference center. A large classroom in the center was converted into a COVID-19 ward, with temporary dividers separating the beds. Some emergency room patients are being treated in a converted portion of the emergency room lobby, and the hospital's entire third floor has also been designated for coronavirus patients.
> 
> 
> Urgent and elective surgeries are on hold, Scoggins said, and Kootenai Health is struggling to accept any of the high-level trauma patients that would normally be transferred from the smaller hospitals in the region.





> The demand on hospitals is likely to increase in coming weeks as case numbers continue to climb, Jeppesen said, so everyone should take steps to avoid needing any emergency care if possible by wearing seatbelts, taking medication as prescribed and reconsidering activities like riding bikes that can lead to accidents.


Non infected citizens are warned to not do things that might require emergency care. You can't make this stuff up.


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## AnnieA (Sep 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> When they catch covid, they should have to make an appointment to get treated rather than clogging up the emergency rooms and they should be given the lowest priority when being accepted into hospitals. A vaccinated person with an ingrown toenail should be treated before unvaccinated people with covid.


You couldn't (and shouldn't anyhow) do that here due racial disparities in vaccination rates.  Black fully vaccinated rates are 20% lower than white though the vaccine is readily available in every area. Lots of distrust in the vaccine even in black friends and coworkers in health care.


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## Chris21E (Sep 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> The head of Jefferson County Public Health pulled the agency’s three COVID-19 vaccination vans off the road over Labor Day weekend after nurses and medical staff administering shots to the public were jeered at and harassed by passersby.​​One driver, she said, ran over and destroyed temporary signs the clinic had put up around its vaccine tent. That same day, someone threw unidentified liquid at a public health nurse who was working a different mobile clinic stationed in front of a Jefferson County restaurant, Comstock said.​​“Additional cars drove by screaming obscenities at vaccine staff and th garbage at them,” she said. “I will not put the hard-working public health staff in harm’s way.”​https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/08/jefferson-county-covid-vaccine-clinic-halted/​
> Crazy bastards.


Just Wow, So glad I'm not needing to be in the ER for other issues.  This beyond choice....Flat out Stupidity. 

Keep it to yourself...is all we ask.


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## Remy (Sep 8, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Although I regret my increasingly hardened position, the truth is I have less and less sympathy for people who _can be _vaccinated but refuse, then become seriously ill or die from Covid.


It's also mentioned that people don't want the shot but are flooding the hospitals with care when they become ill. They seem to have faith in that. I hope we don't end up with a variant the immunizations will not work for.


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## ohioboy (Sep 9, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> a hospital in a neighboring county here has been struggling to get oxygen to the hospital. people need to wake up before it's too late. yes there's a chance you may still get covid after the vaccine. supposedly not as severe. that's what they were designed for. not for eradicating it. 75-80% of the deaths here are in unvaccinated folks.


The Earth is running out of Helium too. Armageddon will now be known as _Leg_ageddon, man does not have a leg to stand on. Mankind is destroying itself at an alarming rate.


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## Tom 86 (Sep 9, 2021)

Our hospital around here has quit doing "elective" surgeries because all beds are full of Conav-19 patents & they still need beds for heart attacks & stroke patients that come in, along with accident people. 

  They have set up big heated/AC tents in the parking lot to treauge many patents.   Some Dr's are giving ivermectin 30 milligrams to people coming in & they recover in 3 days.


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## StarSong (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> They have set up big heated/AC tents in the parking lot to treauge many patents. *Some Dr's are giving ivermectin 30 milligrams to people coming in & they recover in 3 days.*


Please provide credible links.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Some Dr's are giving ivermectin 30 milligrams to people coming in & they recover in 3 days.



That's not what studies are showing ...a recent literature review I read published in this month's American Journal of Therapeutics showed studies are finding ivermectin shortens duration of covid infection by several days.   Studies show promise using it as a prophylactic and in decreasing mortality rates, but it's not a quick cure "recover in 3 days" wonder drug.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 9, 2021)

I don't know how a pandemic ever became a political issue, but it did.  

My friends on the left live in fear.  Although they are all vaccinated (some have already gotten boosters) they are wary of social interactions.  They mask up wherever they go.  

My friends on the right are unconcerned.  They don't mask unless forced to, and, while all have been vaccinated, they cheerfully go to college football games and other crowded events.  

My friends on the left blamed the orange guy for the outbreak and its spread.  They pooh-poohed the vaccine until Biden took office.  Then they mocked anyone who wouldn't get the vaccine as an ignorant goober.  They thought Biden was doing a great job in fighting the virus, until one day they didn't.  They take everything Dr. Fauci says as gospel, although to me it's clear that he's a) highly politicized and b) willing to stretch the truth when it suits him (witness his lies about the outside funding of the Wuhan lab).  

As usual, I'm somewhere in the middle.  It's clear the vaccine is neither as effective nor as long-lasting as once thought, although it does work.  I'm skeptical of masking but I stay away from crowded places and keep my distance from people.  And I do think the media overhypes the severity of the Delta variant outbreak.  For example, hospitalization rates have started to go down, but there is no reporting on that.  

Another thing I can't understand is wearing a mask in a restaurant.  You have to take it off to eat and drink. Why not just leave it off until the meal is over?  Or, if you're so concerned, skip eating in a restaurant altogether?  It obviously doesn't do any good to keep putting it on and taking it off.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I don't know how a pandemic ever became a political issue, but it did.
> 
> My friends on the left live in fear.  Although they are all vaccinated (some have already gotten boosters) they are wary of social interactions.  They mask up wherever they go.
> 
> ...



It's so easy to generalize based on your experiences and media driven stereotypes.  I could flip several of the statements you made in paragraphs two and three above based on people I know in real life and health dept. stats from our state.

But you are correct in saying it's politicized in that it is being used as another media driven (both US 'sides') tool to polarize.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> It's so easy to generalize based on your experiences and media driven stereotypes.  I could flip several of the statements you made in paragraphs two and three above based on people I know in real life and health dept. stats from our state.
> 
> But you are correct in saying it's politicized in that it is being used as another tool to polarize.



Paragraphs two and three are based exclusively on my own personal experiences.  What were you expecting, a Gallup poll?


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> You couldn't (and shouldn't anyhow) do that here due racial disparities in vaccination rates.  Black fully vaccinated rates are 20% lower than white though the vaccine is readily available in every area. Lots of distrust in the vaccine even in black friends and coworkers in health care.


I understand the root causes of distrust among Blacks -- there's the history and there's the current state of affairs of their treatment when they interact with the medical community.  However, my thoughts are that the fact of their not getting the vaccine is not only hurting their communities, but is hurting everyone else.  Probably _most _of the people who aren't vaccinated are that way because of disinformation; that, too, is a systemic problem.  Everyone who doesn't get vaccinated has a reason and everyone should be treated the same unless they're people who are either medically incapable or Christian Scientists -- and I'm not sure about the latter.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 9, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I don't know how a pandemic ever became a political issue, but it did.
> 
> My friends on the left live in fear.  Although they are all vaccinated (some have already gotten boosters) they are wary of social interactions.  They mask up wherever they go.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.  It's why I stay away from restaurants.  Before the vaccine I never ate anything I hadn't cooked myself.  After the vaccine I'd go to a restaurant and sit with only one other person as long as that person was vaccinated.  Since Delta I'll bring cooked food in, but won't eat in a restaurant.

I'm going to a conference in New England at the end of the year.; probably just about everyone will be vaccinated it's that kind of group.  If things stay as they are, I'll continue to wear a mask and will take my meals in my room.


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## Remy (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Our hospital around here has quit doing "elective" surgeries because all beds are full of Conav-19 patents & they still need beds for heart attacks & stroke patients that come in, along with accident people.


Putting a hold on elective surgeries doesn't mean people are not suffering for that. If my gall bladder removal surgery had been delayed and considered elective, I could have still been potentially in a lot of pain until I could have received the surgery. 

My understanding is (of coarse I have no real statistics, just what I have heard here and there on the news) that people taking the ivermectin are often not vaccinated. I wonder if one proven or not proven drug regarding safety is considered better over another and why. 

I got my first covid shot Dec. 28 of last year so I was in the early roll out due to my job. No one I know had any significant reaction.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

Remy said:


> My understanding is (of coarse I have no real statistics, just what I have heard here and there on the news) that people taking the ivermectin are often not vaccinated.


With studies showing that both vaccines and ivermectin lessen the occurrence and severity of infection, a good practitioner will use them both.


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## Tom 86 (Sep 9, 2021)

Where I live a lot of the Doctors were kids one time that lived on big farms.  So they know of drugs for animals that work for them & although not CDC or FDA approved for humin use still take them & they are fine.   As one Dr. said the Pharmaceuticals places are all in the FDA's pocket to not approve certain drugs that they know works for both animals & humins.

  When I was growing up we didn't have Vets.  If your dog got sick we took it to our normal Dr. that went into his back room & put together different things to heal it.   Same when we got sick,  NO FDA or CDC back then.  All we knew was what the Doc. put together in his backroom made us well.  I'm 86 so I can be a good example of his concoctions back then.


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## Irwin (Sep 9, 2021)

There actually is evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment of covid-19.

Conclusions:​Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.​https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/​
Imagine that.


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## StarSong (Sep 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> There actually is evidence that ivermectin is an effective treatment of covid-19.
> 
> Conclusions:​Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.​https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/​
> Imagine that.


This isn't a paper or an assessment _by_ the NCBI nor is it an endorsement of the information contained within, it's merely a republishing of an article by the American Journal of Therapeutics.


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## Tom 86 (Sep 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> This isn't a paper or an assessment _by_ the NCBI nor is it an endorsement of the information contained within, it's merely a republishing of an article by the American Journal of Therapeutics.


WHY do we have to have  Assessments from NCBI or any other so-called place of supposable knowledge.  Don's Dr. told him This is NOT FDA approved but I know it works because of all the patients I've seen & used it on & they did not die & they got much better faster.  

  I'm starting to believe the Dr's that are using it instead of the other CDC or any other place.  Our hospital has tents set up in parking lots that are giving this to patients & in our local papers they are saying, the people that got the ivermectin 30 milligrams at the hospital tent did not have to go on a ventilator & they recovered much faster.

  The news is just trying to scare everyone with their hyped-up do not use this as it's not good for you.   Everyone should stop listening to the news.


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## StarSong (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Everyone should stop listening to the news.


Not to mention everyone on the Internet.


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## JimBob1952 (Sep 9, 2021)

Covid lunacy abounds on all sides.  

My wife helps out at an afterschool program from 2-6 every day.  The children and staff are required to wear masks indoors but not outdoors.  During outdoor playtime, the unmasked children huddle together, tell secrets, hug each other and do whatever kids do on a playground.  Then they put their masks back on and go inside.  

After school, their unmasked parents take them to restaurants at which they are not required to wear masks.  Or to play dates at friends' houses (again, no mask requirements).

How is this helping anything? It all seems like Kabuki theater to me.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

StarSong said:


> This isn't a paper or an assessment _by_ the NCBI nor is it an endorsement of the information contained within, it's merely a republishing of an article by the American Journal of Therapeutics.



The American Journal of Therapeutics article (link to visuals) is a literature review and meta analysis, so findings from multiple studies are reviewed and compared.  The lead authors for the individual studies are in the second column.

Here are the stats in tabular form with easy to interpret visuals in the last two columns:

Figure 1: Prophylaxis







Figure 2:  Recovery time






Figure 3: Mortality


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> The news is just trying to scare everyone with their hyped-up do not use this as it's not good for you.   Everyone should stop listening to the news.



I've backed off reading media opinions regarding medicine since they're so polarizing and are often flat out misinformation.

Hope that the "not good for you" message is to not self-medicate with veterinary forms of Ivermectin rather than casting erroneous negativity on the drug itself.  It is used for both humans and livestock, but the dosage for humans must be determined by a human medical practitioner and obtained by prescription from a pharmacy.


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## Tom 86 (Sep 9, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> I've backed off reading media opinions regarding medicine since they're so polarizing and are often flat out misinformation.
> 
> Hope that the "not good for you" message is to not self-medicate with veterinary forms of Ivermectin rather than casting erroneous negativity on the drug itself.  It is used for both humans and livestock, but the dosage for humans must be determined by a human medical practitioner and obtained by prescription from a pharmacy.


That's how everyone around here is getting it.  See a Dr. or to the hospital triage tent & they prescribe the ivermectin 30 milligrams. Then, you go to a pharmacy to pick them up. The hospital tent is connected to the hospital & Pharmacy, so they bring it to you.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> That's how everyone around here is getting it.  See a Dr. or to the hospital triage tent & they prescribe the ivermectin 30 milligrams. Then, you go to a pharmacy to pick them up. The hospital tent is connected to the hospital & Pharmacy, so they bring it to you.



It's usually dosed in milligrams per kilogram body weight.  I saw on another thread that your friend was prescribed it.  Maybe the 30 mg was based on his body weight?


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## Tish (Sep 9, 2021)

We are due to peak in numbers in October.
Where the staff will come from to treat these people is beyond me, although an ICU RN stated they are now retraining nurses from all fields to become ICU nurses.

II have a feeling that all Nursing homes and retirement villages will be run by AINS(Assistants in nursing)

I was working as an RN in John Hunter Hospital during the SARS pandemic, they put us in a 6-week rotation, in those 6 weeks we were confined to nurses accommodation when we were not on the wards working.
SARS was nothing compared to Covid.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 9, 2021)

Tish said:


> We are due to peak in numbers in October.
> Where the staff will come from to treat these people is beyond me, although an ICU RN stated they are now retraining nurses from all fields to become ICU nurses.
> 
> II have a feeling that all Nursing homes and retirement villages will be run by AINS(Assistants in nursing)
> ...


If by "accommodation" you mean turning patients, being the second pair of eyes necessary when certain procedures are done, etc., this is now being done.  Administrators are also filling these roles.  The problem, of course, is that this takes nurses away from non-COVID rooms.


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## AnnieA (Sep 9, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> If by "accommodation" you mean turning patients, being the second pair of eyes necessary when certain procedures are done, etc., this is now being done.  Administrators are also filling these roles.  The problem, of course, is that this takes nurses away from non-COVID rooms.





> "...in those 6 weeks we were confined to nurses accommodation when we were not on the wards working."



I think she meant the nurses had to live in a restricted area while not on duty.


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## Tish (Sep 9, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> If by "accommodation" you mean turning patients, being the second pair of eyes necessary when certain procedures are done, etc., this is now being done.  Administrators are also filling these roles.  The problem, of course, is that this takes nurses away from non-COVID rooms.


What I meant by accommodation is we nurses were not allowed back home during those 6 weeks.


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## fmdog44 (Sep 9, 2021)

Saw a video if a doctor that is refusing to see patients that refuse the vaccine. Good for her. They never believed in science before they got infected why then do they suddenly turn to it after?


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## win231 (Sep 9, 2021)

Irwin said:


> When they catch covid, they should have to make an appointment to get treated rather than clogging up the emergency rooms and they should be given the lowest priority when being accepted into hospitals. A vaccinated person with an ingrown toenail should be treated before unvaccinated people with covid.


How do you feel about vaccinated people with Covid?


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## WhatInThe (Sep 11, 2021)

Medical care shortages has been 'an' issue long before the time of the virus.

The AMA/American Medical Association has lobbied for a set number of doctors for decades including placing limits on the number of federally funded residency programs. They didn't want competition or alternatives and did their best to stifle it.  They've even frowned upon practices expanding. This 'policy' has helped keep prices high and practices full. Problem is many doctors and others in administrative positions making these decisions came from this era/ were mentored by these types. This was their policy at least through the 1990s.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/american-medical-association-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

Without expanding practices and/or more doctors to open them this lead or leads to fewer hospitals and facilities in general. And rationed care. This is part of the reason why in some areas a hospital can charge $5k for an mri and others it's $500. This contrived medical care market makes it harder to treat those with the commorbidities that are leading to many hospitalizations. With more gp's around perhaps it would've lowered the cost and convenience of care that would've helped many a patient much earlier in their lives.


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## Sunny (Sep 11, 2021)

win231 said:


> How do you feel about vaccinated people with Covid?


Glad that they had the sense to get vaccinated, and glad that they will almost certainly not get seriously ill from it.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 11, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Medical care shortages has been 'an' issue long before the time of the virus.
> 
> The AMA/American Medical Association has lobbied for a set number of doctors for decades including placing limits on the number of federally funded residency programs. They didn't want competition or alternatives and did their best to stifle it.  They've even frowned upon practices expanding. This 'policy' has helped keep prices high and practices full. Problem is many doctors and others in administrative positions making these decisions came from this era/ were mentored by these types. This was their policy at least through the 1990s.
> 
> ...


And it's just about impossible for a specialist from another country to come here and work in that specialty.  She has to go through another residency and they're impossible to find for that group.  Therefore, my doctors' offices have foreign specialists working as techs.   As a matter of fact, my _optometrist _had a tech who was an _ophthalmologist _(she left to home school her son when COVID hit).


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 11, 2021)

win231 said:


> How do you feel about vaccinated people with Covid?


If they get _really _sick from COVID, it means they probably have a bad immunodeficiency.  I believe they've done what they could and should be treated the same as any non-COVID serious case.


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## AnnieA (Sep 11, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> And it's just about impossible for a specialist from another country to come here and work in that specialty.  She has to go through another residency and they're impossible to find for that group.  Therefore, my doctors' offices have foreign specialists working as techs.   As a matter of fact, my _optometrist _had a tech who was an _ophthalmologist _(she left to home school her son when COVID hit).



In the US, no additional residency is required but the practitioner must pass the board certification exam for their area of practice.


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## Been There (Sep 11, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I don't know how a pandemic ever became a political issue, but it did.
> 
> My friends on the left live in fear.  Although they are all vaccinated (some have already gotten boosters) they are wary of social interactions.  They mask up wherever they go.
> 
> ...


Good post. It did seem to me that the U.S. was getting the virus under control, until we opened the southern border to hundreds of thousands of illegals allowing them to enter with no vetting, no testing and no vaccinating. Now we have the same with the Afghans we brought here. At last count, 1,375,000 illegals have come into this country as of 21 August 2021.

The real irony of this is that since we now have mandated vaccinations through employers with 100 workers or more, and not taking into consideration the person’s health situation or if they had the virus and have natural antibodies, they must get the vaccine. However, there is no such mandate for the illegals or the Afghans. Who the hell do they think is spreading this virus? The people that are illegally coming here are among the most probable spreaders in this country. Why is that so hard to understand? Close the borders or more will die and their blood will be on the hands of those allowing it to happen.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 12, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> In the US, no additional residency is required but the practitioner must pass the board certification exam for their area of practice.


I'm talking about the U.S., Florida in particular.  If they pass an exam, they can practice as general practitioners, but not work in their specialties.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 12, 2021)

Been There said:


> Good post. It did seem to me that the U.S. was getting the virus under control, until we opened the southern border to hundreds of thousands of illegals allowing them to enter with no vetting, no testing and no vaccinating. Now we have the same with the Afghans we brought here. At last count, 1,375,000 illegals have come into this country as of 21 August 2021.
> 
> The real irony of this is that since we now have mandated vaccinations through employers with 100 workers or more, and not taking into consideration the person’s health situation or if they had the virus and have natural antibodies, they must get the vaccine. However, there is no such mandate for the illegals or the Afghans. Who the hell do they think is spreading this virus? The people that are illegally coming here are among the most probable spreaders in this country. Why is that so hard to understand? Close the borders or more will die and their blood will be on the hands of those allowing it to happen.


The reason only some people are being required to take the vaccine is that Biden can do only what he's allowed to do by law and the Constitution.  It's amazing the outreach that's being done in my Florida county to reach illegals, but Biden has no control over mandates in that or most other areas.  Through OSHA he _does _have control over employees of large companies.  Of course, we need to remember that OSHA has almost no manpower or budget; so, in the vast majority of cases, all that this will do is give cover to employers who have wanted to require vaccines, but were facing huge opposition.

"Sweeping new mandates apply to businesses with more than 100 employees, whose workers would have to be inoculated or face weekly testing." 

He isn't requiring vaccines without regard for their health; they have the option of weekly testing.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/09/09/covid-vaccine-requirement-businesses/


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## AnnieA (Sep 12, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> I'm talking about the U.S., Florida in particular.  If they pass an exam, they can practice as general practitioners, but not work in their specialties.



Maybe a state thing?  ...but that's weird.  Boards are to ensure competency, so I'm not sure why anything is required beyond passing them.   I've worked with foreign educated nephrologists in Memphis who didn't do an additional residency.  They were US board certified in nephrology, however, because they passed boards.


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## Don M. (Sep 12, 2021)

The longer this pandemic continues, the more our health care system will decline.  Here's an ominous indication of what the future may bring, especially for Seniors.  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/older-patients-could-denied-treatment-161100236.html

With more and more hospitals reaching capacity, and providers/nurses being overwhelmed (some even leaving the profession), hospitals may soon have to start making decisions on who they will treat.


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## StarSong (Sep 13, 2021)

Most epidemiologists expect Covid to eventually tone down into a seasonally recurring virus like the flu.  And just like the flu, people with access to good health care will have the option to get vaccinated against it.  Or not.   

Thanks for posting that link, @Don M. It's another reminder to continue cautious behavior, particularly during these spikes. 

I feel so sorry for healthcare providers, particularly when seriously ill unvaccinated people show up in their hospitals begging for healthcare - neither questioning or caring what's being pumped into their arms because they're so desperate to get well. These are the same people who, for the previous 8 months, loudly eschewed the vaccine because they "didn't trust big pharma or what was in that vaccine." 

No wonder nurses are leaving the profession in droves.


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## AnnieA (Sep 13, 2021)

StarSong said:


> Most epidemiologists expect Covid to eventually tone down into a seasonally recurring virus like the flu.  And just like the flu, people with access to good health care will have the option to get vaccinated against it.  Or not.
> 
> Thanks for posting that link, @Don M. It's another reminder to continue cautious behavior, particularly during these spikes.
> 
> ...



There have been infectious disease scientists who said from the first that Covid will stay with us based on the fact that there's never been a successful vaccine for any virus in the coronavirus family.  That's changed a bit since the current vaccines do significanty lessen severity.  So hope for one someday that will eradicate it.  As for access to vaccines, here in Mississippi they are available in every county in multiple locations free of charge and always will be at county heath departments for indigent people.

It's not making the news much, but more  heathcare providers than are being openly acknowledged who are still waiting to see about long-term side effects, have medical reasons to abstain,  have had Covid and understand the superiority of natural immunity are choosing not to vaccinate at present so are leaving jobs that require it.  Most medical facilities will likely start accepting antibody titers from previously infected employees who choose not to vaccinate.   That's already the norm for diseases such as Hepatitis B. Immunity is immunity whether due to infection or vaccine.  That's why I advocate immunity passports rather than vaccine passports.

Immunity passports thread:
https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...covering-both-recovered-and-vaccinated.64007/

As for healthcare workers in the thick of it, I cannot fathom how exhausted they must be.  Some surely resent the unvaccinated,  some understand healthcare choice and most all are probably incensed at the very ill coming in who were given nothing at the time of their positive test other than the outdated and extremely dangerous advice to go home and seek medical help if they become short of breath.


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## Becky1951 (Sep 13, 2021)

Don M. said:


> The longer this pandemic continues, the more our health care system will decline.  Here's an ominous indication of what the future may bring, especially for Seniors.
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/older-patients-could-denied-treatment-161100236.html
> 
> With more and more hospitals reaching capacity, and providers/nurses being overwhelmed (some even leaving the profession), hospitals may soon have to start making decisions on who they will treat.


This was considered in 2020 in many states when the hospitals were filling up. 

This time is worse because of the vaccine mandate. Medical professionals are either walking out or being fired, leaving an even larger lack of health care professionals, so even more exhaustion now for remaining medical personnel.


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## win231 (Sep 13, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> This was considered in 2020 in many states when the hospitals were filling up.
> 
> This time is worse because of the vaccine mandate. Medical professionals are either walking out or being fired, leaving an even larger lack of health care professionals, so even more exhaustion now for remaining medical personnel.


That's what happens when people's rights are violated.  It backfires.
_And medical personnel have more knowledge than the average patient, so if they refuse a Covid vaccine, there is good reason._


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## Lethe200 (Sep 13, 2021)

win231 said:


> That's what happens when people's rights are violated.  It backfires.
> _And medical personnel have more knowledge than the average patient, so if they refuse a Covid vaccine, there is good reason._


Sorry, don't agree with either statement. But c'est la vie.


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## Been There (Sep 13, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> The reason only some people are being required to take the vaccine is that Biden can do only what he's allowed to do by law and the Constitution.  It's amazing the outreach that's being done in my Florida county to reach illegals, but Biden has no control over mandates in that or most other areas.  Through OSHA he _does _have control over employees of large companies.  Of course, we need to remember that OSHA has almost no manpower or budget; so, in the vast majority of cases, all that this will do is give cover to employers who have wanted to require vaccines, but were facing huge opposition.
> 
> "Sweeping new mandates apply to businesses with more than 100 employees, whose workers would have to be inoculated or face weekly testing."
> 
> ...


The President has no power to mandate vaccines. This power belongs to the states. The U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled on two previous suits and by consensus of the justices ruled that the 14th Amendment states that only the states have this power.

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/current-constitutional-issues-related-to-vaccine-mandates 

Because the President has excluded the Postal workers, which exceed 400,000 people, this Amendment applies under the language of “Equal protection of the laws.” However, the President has already ignored the USSC on two occasions, so this mandate may make it three. I don’t believe we want any President to have this power, otherwise, what would stop that person from mandating any vaccine? Something for all of us to think about.


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 14, 2021)

Been There said:


> The President has no power to mandate vaccines. This power belongs to the states. The U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled on two previous suits and by consensus of the justices ruled that the 14th Amendment states that only the states have this power.
> 
> https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/current-constitutional-issues-related-to-vaccine-mandates
> 
> Because the President has excluded the Postal workers, which exceed 400,000 people, this Amendment applies under the language of “Equal protection of the laws.” However, the President has already ignored the USSC on two occasions, so this mandate may make it three. I don’t believe we want any President to have this power, otherwise, what would stop that person from mandating any vaccine? Something for all of us to think about.


I have great respect for the Constitution Center, Been There.  However, I don't see that the article you posted specifically states that this mandate won't fly.

Biden's using OSHA; OSHA is required to see to the safety and healthfulness of the workplace.  This may or may not be held up in court.   Further, it will take many months just to write the regulations necessary.  And then, as I said, OSHA is extremely restricted in resources and so won't be able to do all that much enforcement.   All the mandate really does is give cover to those companies who want to require the vaccine and are feeling great negative pressure.  This article discusses the problems:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/gover...-will-test-us-workplace-regulator-2021-09-13/


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## Sunny (Sep 14, 2021)

This may be happening all over the world:  Today I went to my dentist, and we started talking about how hard it is to provide safe care in this age of Covid.  He is positively livid about the idiots who are still refusing to get the vaccine.  He says he will examine them once, but if they need any additional treatment, he refuses to treat anyone who is not vaccinated.  He says he shouldn't be required to put himself and his dedicated staff at risk because of someone else's insanity.

And he's usually a very mild-mannered man; I've been going to him for years and never heard him express anger before. I have a feeling a lot of medical professionals may be at the end of their rope.


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## Lethe200 (Sep 14, 2021)

*Study: U.S. spent $5.7 billion for treating unvaccinated Covid-19 patients in the last 3 months*
EBay Times by CNN.COM: September 14, 2021
(Note: this may be a subscriber link, sorry) https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2021/0...nated-covid-19-patients-in-the-last-3-months/

(excerpt)
A new analysis published Tuesday estimates that preventable costs for treating hospitalized, unvaccinated Covid-19 patients reached $5.7 billion over the last three months.

This most recent data takes into account the surge in hospitalizations seen in August, which study authors estimate accounted for $3.7 billion of preventable spending alone.

The data analysis from the Kaiser Family Foundation found, using data from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, as well as studies on health care costs, that each preventable Covid-19 hospitalization costs about $20,000.

According to KFF’s analysis of data from the US Department of Health and Human Services and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the US saw 287,000 preventable Covid-19 hospitalizations from June to August.

The study authors used “preventable” hospitalizations to refer to hospitalizations of unvaccinated adults for Covid-19 treatment primarily, while accounting for any post-vaccination infections that would have been expected if this population had been vaccinated.

These numbers together yield a total of $5.7 billion spent on preventable hospitalizations over three months. The study authors said this number is likely a conservative estimate of costs. “This ballpark figure is likely an understatement of the cost burden from preventable treatment of Covid-19 among unvaccinated adults,” the authors said.

The study did not account for outpatient care costs, and some data indicates inpatient health care costs for Covid-19 treatment may be higher than the $20,000 figure used.

“Additionally, although breakthrough infections and hospitalizations are rare, unvaccinated people are also more likely to spread the virus to those who have taken measures to protect themselves and others, and those costs are not included in these estimates,” the authors wrote.


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## win231 (Sep 14, 2021)

Sunny said:


> This may be happening all over the world:  Today I went to my dentist, and we started talking about how hard it is to provide safe care in this age of Covid.  He is positively livid about the idiots who are still refusing to get the vaccine.  He says he will examine them once, but if they need any additional treatment, he refuses to treat anyone who is not vaccinated.  He says he shouldn't be required to put himself and his dedicated staff at risk because of someone else's insanity.
> 
> And he's usually a very mild-mannered man; I've been going to him for years and never heard him express anger before. I have a feeling a lot of medical professionals may be at the end of their rope.


Your dentist is a can short of a six-pack.
 If he really thought an unvaccinated patient would put himself and his staff at risk, w_hy would he "examine them once?"_


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## Dancing_Queen (Sep 15, 2021)

win231 said:


> That's what happens when people's rights are violated.  It backfires.
> _And medical personnel have more knowledge than the average patient, so if they refuse a Covid vaccine, there is good reason._


This is a "Vaccine Exemption Letter" from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  I think it's great!

The seal didn't copy.


https://www.spaghettimonster.org/2021/09/vaccine-exemption-letters/


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## Becky1951 (Sep 15, 2021)

Dancing_Queen said:


> This is a "Vaccine Exemption Letter" from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  I think it's great!
> 
> The seal didn't copy.
> 
> ...


A special area? Then what, next step the gas chamber?  Sounds familiar, sounds like the first step in gathering up a certain race of people, whom their leader wanted to eliminate.


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