# Dad's texting to daughter sparks argument, shot dead



## Davey Jones (Jan 15, 2014)

Why am I not surprise of this type of behavior anymore,seems EVERYBODY that wants a hand gun can now get one no questions ask.
Ill bet this shooter was as normal as anybody but still choose to shot this guy.
He should be shot between the eyes while watching a Tom & Jerry cartoon IMO.



http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/13/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I heard that too; I just don't get it..


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I am afraid that us Brits don't understand your 'gun culture'. We prefer knives for some reason..


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

Not as many as you per thousand, I will look up the figures while you go to the store!


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

US has 4.7 homicides per 100,000 
UK has 1.2 homicides per 100,00
however the corresponding figures involving firearms is 10.3 v 1.2, which is why we don't understand your 'gun culture!'


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

Before Phil brings his superior knowledge to bear, I will admit those figures came from Wikipedia, and may not be from exactly corresponding years, but you get the general idea..


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## SifuPhil (Jan 15, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Before Phil brings his superior knowledge to bear, I will admit those figures came from Wikipedia, and may not be from exactly corresponding years, but you get the general idea..



They seem to click with the FBI and other stats. 

You have to be careful with statistics, though ... they can express facts in many different ways, some of which can lead to erroneous conclusions.

For example, the US homicide-by-gun rates ... they could theoretically be accounted for by:



More guns in the hands of private citizens discourage people from committing murder with knives. 
The number of murders with knives declined, and the number of murders with guns remained constant. 
The overall number of murders decreased because of the decline in knife murder rates, so the _percentage_ of murders committed with guns increased even though the _number_ of gun murders remained constant. 

And here's something to think about when comparing US gun deaths with UK knife deaths ...




In or about 2006, there were about 60 million (actually closer to  58M, but we'll use the rounded-up number)  people in the UK as a whole, including Scotland. 
In England and Wales alone — discounting Scotland — there were over 163 thousand knife crimes. 
By the end of 2006, there were more than 300 million people in the US as a whole. 
In the US as a whole, there were fewer than 400 thousand gun crimes. 
In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down). 
In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime  committed for every 750 people — less than half a gun crime per 374  people (about 0.4987 gun crimes per 374 people, actually). 
That means that, based on these statistics, you are _more than twice as likely_ to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US.

It's never as straightforward as our governments would have us believe ...


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I agree to a large extent, Phil; I know statistics can be made to fit certain scenarios, and I realise that our knife crime is horrendous; but knives tend to kill one person at a time; whereas you lot seem to like to get a few more at once!
just a different perspective from this side of the pond.... And we are really not a gun-carrying nation.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 15, 2014)

And yet ... speaking from a purely personal perspective, facing a knife is much more disconcerting than facing a gun. I think it's the idea of the amount of blood that can be let, the multiple wounds and the unique _feel_ of a knife injury as opposed to a gunshot. 

A lot of people I know and have spoken with that underwent their own trials-by-weapon agreed with me.

But as far as multiple homicides, yes, I agree that guns make it much easier. 

What I've never understood about the gun situation in the UK is that you folks are no strangers to guns, which puts you in the same league as us. We both have our histories filled with the use of firearms. What got you to convince the public to give them up? 

Could it be that the US race-memories are still too fresh in our minds for us to allow them to take our guns? I believe your last civil war ended in 1651; our last one ended in 1865.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

You may be right.....also we do not hunt as much as you.....our large wild-life was shot to extinction ; anyway, we prefer to tear animals to pieces in a social group!
We banned hand-guns after the Dunblane massacre, and when police with machine guns appeared at our airports there was outrage!
we are also a lotmore squashed together than you, we just don't speak to our neighbours, part of our natural reserve.
we did not have civil rights problems like you at all; we weren't particularly tolerant I don't think, but our population is a lot smaller, so we didn't end up with a large ethnic underclass.


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## gar (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't have a Gun but if I had to protect myself in my Home and I killed the perp so be it. But here in Canada I would be arrested for killing him.
in Fact if I even hurt a Burglar etc. breaking into my home he could sue me, isn't that a lot of B.S.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

We have that too Gar; if you can prove self-defence a lighter sentence will come your way, but shoot him in the back; no chance!


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## SifuPhil (Jan 15, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> You may be right.....also we do not hunt as much as you.....our large wild-life was shot to extinction ; anyway, we prefer to tear animals to pieces in a social group!
> We banned hand-guns after the Dunblane massacre, and when police with machine guns appeared at our airports there was outrage!
> we are also a lotmore squashed together than you, we just don't speak to our neighbours, part of our natural reserve.



That all makes sense - thank you.



> we did not have civil rights problems like you at all; we weren't particularly tolerant I don't think, but our population is a lot smaller, so we didn't end up with a large ethnic underclass.



Wellllll ... that isn't what my bouncer buddies around London tell me. With over 12% of London being comprised of Muslims I reckon there are a good percentage of fights caused by racial / religious tensions. What about all the riots that occurred in 2011 & 2012?


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I meant back in the 60's and 70's. Now is different; I think we are becoming more divided; us middle class whites tend to be in our own bubbles, and try and ignore places like Tottenham...I can only see it getting worse.
but again, that is not usually guns; arson, bricks, paving stones, fists.....


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I forgot bombs...


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## SifuPhil (Jan 15, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> I meant back in the 60's and 70's. Now is different; I think we are becoming more divided; us middle class whites tend to be in our own bubbles, and try and ignore places like Tottenham...I can only see it getting worse.
> but again, that is not usually guns; arson, bricks, paving stones, fists.....



Ah, okay, that makes sense. We had our own "awakening" over here in the 60's and 70's, so I guess you are just following our lead. 

I suppose they don't use guns because they're so difficult to purchase, and that the black-market ones are priced beyond the rioters' wallets. 

The bombs, well ... that's a different topic entirely.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I imagine that to buy a gun you have to know somebody who knows somebody; paving stones are there at your feet, no contest!


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## rkunsaw (Jan 15, 2014)

It's not the guns or the knives that is the problem. In the United States people have always had guns and knives. When I was in school nearly every boy in school had a knife in his pocket. But if two boys got into a fight they fought with fists, no thought of pulling out a knife.

There was also guns in nearly every household. But there were no mass murders.

Something has gone haywire with the attitudes of people. I believe lack of discipline both at home and in schools plays a big part. And all the publicity by the media keeps it going.

All these crimes,gun and knife, are committed by people. Yet the only thing the uninformed among us can think of is to blame the guns (or knives).

People can and will find a way to do harm if they want to. What we need to figure out  is  WHY do they want to. And what can we do to make them not want to any more.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I agree; but it is interesting comparing our different perspectives, and how they may have arisen.
i also agree that violence has got much worse since I was young.... I still think that a lot of middle-class whites blame it on 'the others' where's domestic violence, for example, happens everywhere, but that is not yet admitted to.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 15, 2014)

Well said Rkunsaw, I agree.  We didn't have any guns in my home when I was growing up, but I had relatives and friends who did.  Back then, people could have guns and rifles throughout their homes, not in gun safes or with trigger locks either.  The children were taught to respect guns, and they learned from the family how to clean them and use them, even young toddlers were taught not to touch them.  Many of the guns were loaded and ready to go if needed, because if they weren't they'd be considered useless in an emergency.  We have a loaded pistol ready to go at home, and have had it that way for decades.  Luckily there's never been an intruder, where we needed to use it.  I would not be alone without it.  I'd have no trouble at all killing someone that was going to kill or hurt me or my family.  Like they say, outlaw guns, and only outlaws will have guns.

Like you said, lack of discipline, parental guidance, having both parents involved with raising the children, putting them on drugs like Ritalin at a young age, and anti-depressants as teens, on and on...all these things contribute to the problem nowadays. Nobody is there to teach them that there are consequences for their actions, and they have no role models.  The kids and teens are bored, because the parents neglected to do their jobs, guide them with hobbies/activities and raise them with respect and empathy for others.  Some think that spending 8 hours a day on violent video games, instead of going out and interacting with other kids, has a negative effect on the thought process...I completely agree with that too.  Kids who only know what they see on the video games and their facebook, have stunted thought processes and reasoning in the real world.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

I think maybe you have hit the core of the problem nowadays, Seabreeze. Consequences for their actions. 
US and UK recent history are very different when it comes to guns..... I have never seen one in real life.
but I am prepared to take responsibility for my actions...


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## Warrigal (Jan 15, 2014)

Someone mentioned the American Civil War. 
I think this is very pertinent to the American resistance to gun control measures that other societies regard as perfectly reasonable.
IMO Americans are very afraid/hostile towards their fellow countrymen. Perhaps the very large population is another factor.


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## Vivjen (Jan 15, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Someone mentioned the American Civil War.
> I think this is very pertinent to the American resistance to gun control measures that other societies regard as perfectly reasonable.
> IMO Americans are very afraid/hostile towards their fellow countrymen. Perhaps the very large population is another factor.


Phil also mentioned the civil rights movement as another type of civil war; much more recent, and I think you have a very valid point.
our perceptive of American gun laws are SOO different from theirs.


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## Diwundrin (Jan 15, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> I am afraid that us Brits don't understand your 'gun culture'. We prefer knives for some reason..



Same here Viv, we've gone slightly more machete lately, I put that down to the increased Asian gang influence though, 'we' are all good guys.



We've been down this gun laws track on previous threads. Incredibly sensibly, and worth a read if you're interested to get both sides of it in calm and common sense language.  This one was a 'ripper'.  https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/2144-The-blind-to-be-allowed-gun-permits

 It is a 'cultural' thing because logic got drowned in the rubbery statistics figures years ago.

 I like 'our' way better, keeping guns to a minimum works okay in OZ,  but which way America goes with it is their business entirely. 
Different cultural history stemming from a different social structure, different viewpoints, needs and reasons to those of us in the UK, OZ 'n NZ.

Not for us to hand out advice, we look to be heading down the same track ourselves judging from the amount of illegal guns out there now so I for one am keeping my head down on the subject.  They kindly answered the questions that puzzled me about what we see as 'gun-culture' I understand it a lot better and won't be pushing an opinion on it from this far away.


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## drifter (Jan 15, 2014)

There's a umber of things that could have contributed to our gun society other than the constitution, Civil War, Civil Rights but I think rkansaw and Seazbreeze more or less hit it on the head with their comments. 

I've been blaming the problem on too many guns, but we've always had guns and knives. When 12 years old I was given a .22 rifle to hunt with. Most kids had a .22 single shot. I've carried a pocket knife since before I started to school. I never thought about shooting anyone or stabbing anyone. Why. I was disciplined. I wasn't allowed to freely roam anywhere I wanted to go. My parents kept tabs on me. I've had my share of fisticuffs. The thought of using something else to hurt someone was out of the question. Never thought of. 

One parent may have contributed something. It was not guns but lack of discipline and respect for people and property, and manners. I knew a number of kids who had one parent and turned out okay. I knew others who was always getting in trouble. It's not guns. It's something else.


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## Diwundrin (Jan 15, 2014)

I agree with you Drifter, pinning down that 'something else' which is changing behaviour is the problem.  No one will accept responsibility for a wrong decision of the past and be willing to change it, they tend to stand up and defend whatever it was, right or wrong without even thinking about it.  

A lot of individual changes have contributed to turning society in on itself.  Too many rights too quickly perhaps, but who has the 'right' to decide on which ones were good for everyone and which ones were trendy at the time and have proven to contribute to the problems of the many to salve wounded egos of the few?  Even if we pinpoint the problems, fixing them is a whole other ball game.  
ramble...


Spoiler



None of our 'Western' countries represented here are the same demographic that they were a century ago, or even when we were kids.  
We are all far more ethnically and culturally mixed now and the social rules that governed those calmer thinking,  more 'homoeneous'  societies no longer apply to everyone.  Other cultures had other rules and solutions and those were right for them, *there*.  But they've brought their old rules and attitudes along with their baggage and many are at odds with our own old ways.  Not to say that's 'the' problem, just one of many. *Here*.

I may be dead wrong but I see the current surge of 'gun-culture'   awareness being more defensively than offensively based.  For every  idiot redneck we see waving guns around there must be thousands who keep  them simply as a last line of defense against a society they no longer  trust nor understand.  I'm presuming that the majority would rather be  rid of them, but can't be free of them until the reasons for needing  them are gotten rid of first.  What I fear is that we will soon begin to  see it that way too and it will all go to hell in a blink.

I get into trouble for saying that replacing gently enforced assimilation with the grandiosely high minded concept of multiculturalism was a monumental mistake here.  It divided society, and I'm speaking of OZ here, and formed 'them and us' attitudes where none need have existed. It has made both sides of it defensive.

New immigrants always got a hard time before we made room for them, granted that, but by the time they were accepted as friends they were 'Aussies' first, and proud to be accepted as such, they just came from somewhere else.  They didn't call themselves Wahoompian-Australians, living apart from us while deigning to enhance our country with their presence and tolerating us until they can change us into something more suited to their tastes and rules.  


Like you Drifter, I was used to guns being part of life, not in the city so much, although we had a .303 in the house that was never fired for years,  but in the homes of rural relatives and they were just  tools of the farming trade, no mystique or status attached to them at all.  They've become status symbols now though haven't they? 

 Even here where handguns are, except to a very few, unilaterally banned, punk kids big note themselves by getting illegal ones to shoot out peoples' windows with.  Some status eh?  That these kids see only their peers and other, bigger time,  crims as being the role models to impress is the nub of the problem.  What makes them think that way?

To my hazy memory, and I'll quickly be corrected, all reports of these kids placed them in 'ethnic' groupings.  They were born here, but they don't think of themselves as 'Aussies' first.  Aussies are just 'Skips', and a different people to them entirely apparently.  Their ethnic connections are much stronger than with their birth Nation and it's population. 
Yeah, that can burr you up a bit I guess. 

They though are not the sole source of home invading crims and the bank robbers and nutter junkies, but they are the 'gun' awareness examples most reported on by media and so more in our faces and somehow more scary because  it's our neighbourhoods they shoot up.

I'm afraid we can't unmix the cake, whatever ails society it's going to take some very brave and smart thinking to sort it out now.



Can't resist the pun...  No one magic bullet for this problem.


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## Diwundrin (Jan 16, 2014)

> "You never know why this happens," Smith said. "People are depressed.  People do things that are not rational. You just can't explain these  things a lot of the times."



Got that right.


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## Davey Jones (Jan 16, 2014)

CeeCee said:


> Yes, it's become an every day occurrence.
> 
> As for the gun argument...this guy was a retired police officer, he would have a gun anyway.
> 
> i don't know what it is though, it seems people are just angrier nowadays and seem to go into a rage for nothing and then act on it.


*
Lets face it 20 years ago,this guy would have simply punched him in the face and be done with it.
But not today,the handgun seems to be the answer to every arguments.
*


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## Davey Jones (Jan 16, 2014)

CeeCee said:


> Another worrisome aspect of these type of shootings are the young kids shooting in schools, one of those happens at least once a week...there was just one in New Mexico yesterday...a 12 yr. old!!




And where did he get that shotgun from? Good old daddy just happen to have one hanging around the house someplace.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 16, 2014)

CeeCee said:


> This 71 yr old certainly didn't grow up on violent video games.....maybe it's something in the water or air, I'm just joking here but I think this is becoming an epidemic today.



He was a cop that retired from Tampa PD in '93 (20 years ago) ... I didn't see how long he was working, but figure at least 20 years. That's 20 years of dealing with the scum of the earth, of being surrounded every day by violence and death and man's inhumanity to man.

I would think that would be sufficient stimulus to lose it.



> Or is it just the media bringing it more to our attention?  I don't know.



That's certainly a good possibility, but I still believe the occurrence rates are higher today than in the past.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 16, 2014)

CeeCee said:


> so you are saying that all of that mental turmoil was festering inside him for 20 yrs and he just blew his cork that day?



Sometimes that's just the way of things. How many times do they interview the neighbor of a serial killer and you hear "Oh, Joe was a regular guy ... his kids played with mine, we had cook-outs in the backyard ... I never would have imagined him doing something like this."



> That is the third incident at a movie theater involving shootings....makes me afraid to go.



I think in this case the location was just incidental - he could have as likely gone-off in a restaurant or a bingo hall. 

Remember also - we don't have the full story yet, and may never have it. We don't know what the dead guy actually did or said until all the interviews are done, and somehow I don't think there will be many of them.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 16, 2014)

Phil has a good point there, the ex-cop likely had a lot of frustration built up inside him over the years.  Not disrespecting all cops, but many of them are abusive to their wives and children.  We must remember that not every policeman joins the force for righteous reasons either...they're just common people like the rest of us, some join to gain the power and control they lack in their personal lives.

I don't go to the movies that often, but the mass shooting happened in a nearby theater that I've been to on several occasions.  The incident will not stop me from going there to see a movie at all.  Anything can happen where crowds gather, in malls, concerts, football games, etc.  I never did like crowds, but I won't alter where I want to go because of some crazed shooter episode.  I still take hikes on a wooded trails alone, even though there's been cases of women being physically overpowered and forced off the trail, only to be beaten, raped and have their throat slit with a knife.

And Davey, years ago people had loaded guns in their home without these violent shootings.  Young children had no desire to kill, you can't blame this on the guns, there is much more to be considered. Plenty of Dads left their guns out with no fear of the kids using them for murder.   Of course, as myself and many others have expressed in the past, if someone is a hot gun control advocate, then they will jump on any opportunity to use these unfortunate incidents to promote their cause, utilizing fear as the reasoning, while ignoring any and all other factors involved.


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2014)

> I don't go to the movies that often, but the mass shooting happened in a nearby theater that I've been to on several occasions.  The incident will not stop me from going there to see a movie at all.  Anything can happen where crowds gather, in malls, concerts, football games, etc.  I never did like crowds, but I won't alter where I want to go because of some crazed shooter episode.
> 
> I still take hikes on a wooded trails alone, even though there's been cases of women being physically overpowered and forced off the trail, only to be beaten, raped and have their throat slit with a knife.



Seabreeze, you and I must inhabit very different worlds, maybe even different planets.

I go to the movie theatres periodically and the last thing I think about is a crazed gunman because in my whole life I can't remember any such incident. In my teens there was one crazy who ran amok in a picture show with an axe. I do sometimes look around for the fire exits though, just in case.

As for shootings in public places, we used to have our share of those - Hoddle Street, Strathfield Mall are a couple that I can remember vividly - but since the massacre at Port Arthur in 1996 we've had none. After that horrendous incident we made changes to our laws.

We still have guns in private hands but they are registered, the owner has to have a valid reason for having one and certain types of military style weapons are only allowed for the military. There is still a constant need for the police to make sure illegal guns are not imported and acquired by criminals. It's an ongoing struggle. But the gun possessing criminals are not crazy and mostly shoot at each other. They also shoot at one another's houses for some reason. Quite often lately. The particular gang responsible for most of this is being arrested in droves right now and locked up without bail. 

Another thing, I would never go hiking alone, not because of any fear of crazed murderers but because you always need a buddy in the event of misadventure - falls and other injuries being the most likely.

Just asking, but when you do go to the movie theatre, do you carry a weapon for protection? Do you carry one when hiking?


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## SifuPhil (Jan 16, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> We still have guns in private hands but they are registered, the owner has to have a valid reason for having one and certain types of military style weapons are only allowed for the military. There is still a constant need for the police to make sure illegal guns are not imported and acquired by criminals. It's an ongoing struggle. But the gun possessing criminals are not crazy and mostly shoot at each other. They also shoot at one another's houses for some reason. Quite often lately. The particular gang responsible for most of this is being arrested in droves right now and locked up without bail.



But that is basically the same thing going on here!

We have to register our arms, we need a good reason to get carry permits (usually - depends upon the laxity of the issuing office) and military-style weapons are generally banned.

The police and the BATF are constantly on the lookout for illegal guns.

And usually it's the bad guys blowing each other away and doing drive-bys. 

So it isn't really all that different here - maybe it's just the media frenzy and the big-mouthed gun control lobbyists that make it seem like Mad Max is rolling down the streets of America.


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 16, 2014)

Warrigal said:


> Another thing, I would never go hiking alone, not because of any fear of crazed murderers but because you always need a buddy in the event of misadventure - falls and other injuries being the most likely.
> 
> Just asking, but when you do go to the movie theatre, do you carry a weapon for protection? Do you carry one when hiking?



If I go for a hike or walk in a wooded area near our home, my husband always knows which way I went, and approximately when I'll return.  I carry the cellphone, if there's an emergency, say if I fell and needed help.  Of course, I don't always rely on getting a strong signal...I'm basically extra careful when walking alone, and don't take any chances climbing on a high ridge, etc.

From what I understand, even if you have a concealed carry permit for a gun, you're not allowed to have one in a movie theater.  The cops must have special privileges in that department. I'm not afraid to go to the movies, I haven't become paranoid like some folks in the area, so don't feel the need to carry a weapon.  

When I go hiking in wooded areas, I'll carry my husband's walking stick that he fashioned from a tree branch years ago.  I am wary of coyotes, as some are not very fearful of people anymore, and may be tempted to attack.  If I'm hiking in a very remote area of the wilderness, like when we're camping in unfamiliar places, I may take a gun with me for protection...but usually on small trails where no people may be passing by, my husband will be with me.  In wilderness areas, the dog is always with me.


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## Jackie22 (Jan 17, 2014)

SeaBreeze said:


> Phil has a good point there, the ex-cop likely had a lot of frustration built up inside him over the years.  Not disrespecting all cops, but many of them are abusive to their wives and children.  We must remember that not every policeman joins the force for righteous reasons either...they're just common people like the rest of us, some join to gain the power and control they lack in their personal lives.
> 
> I don't go to the movies that often, but the mass shooting happened in a nearby theater that I've been to on several occasions.  The incident will not stop me from going there to see a movie at all.  Anything can happen where crowds gather, in malls, concerts, football games, etc.  I never did like crowds, but I won't alter where I want to go because of some crazed shooter episode.  I still take hikes on a wooded trails alone, even though there's been cases of women being physically overpowered and forced off the trail, only to be beaten, raped and have their throat slit with a knife.
> 
> And Davey, years ago people had loaded guns in their home without these violent shootings.  Young children had no desire to kill, you can't blame this on the guns, there is much more to be considered. Plenty of Dads left their guns out with no fear of the kids using them for murder.   Of course, as myself and many others have expressed in the past, if someone is a hot gun control advocate, then they will jump on any opportunity to use these unfortunate incidents to promote their cause, utilizing fear as the reasoning, while ignoring any and all other factors involved.




These 'unfortunate incidents'...you mean like where kindergarten children are blown away?   Utilizing fear? Give me a break.  I'd say it is time to recognize and fear our gun problem.  I guess its a matter of opinion as to who is ignoring what.

People are trying to give the shooter the benefit of doubt.....when he shot the man in the freaking face and now he is trying to use 'stand your ground' defense because the man he killed threw popcorn at him....


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## SifuPhil (Jan 17, 2014)

Jackie22 said:


> These 'unfortunate incidents'...you mean like where kindergarten children are blown away?   Utilizing fear? Give me a break.  I'd say it is time to recognize and fear our gun problem.  I guess its a matter of opinion as to who is ignoring what.
> 
> People are trying to give the shooter the benefit of doubt.....when he shot the man in the freaking face and now he is trying to use 'stand your ground' defense because the man he killed threw popcorn at him....



Jackie, I'm at a loss as to how you see this as a "gun problem". Obviously the shooter had mental problems - that isn't the _gun's_ fault. And as a retired cop I'm pretty sure he had carry privileges, just like any other citizen, only more so.  

What about all the times guns have been used to _protect_ lives? Those stories often don't make it into the media because, Heaven forbid, people might get the idea that guns aren't all _that_ evil. 

And I guess that's what really burns my butt: that we anthropomorphize guns into evil, raging instruments of Hell with their own warped agendas. Of course they are not - they're simply tools. It's the _mental state_ of the human using them that is the real problem, yet there is precious little being done about that - probably because the human mind is still such a mystery.

As for the popcorn in the face - I'll reiterate that we still don't know the full, true story. This happens every time a controversial event takes place - we jump right in (and with "we" I include myself) and, based upon the first news reports, immediately decide the merits of the case and cast our verdicts. It seems to be a national pastime, but it doesn't always lead to the truth.


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## Vivjen (Jan 17, 2014)

No it isn't the gun's problem, but the human behind it.
however, if the gun wasn't immediately to hand, the human couldn't use it.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 17, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> No it isn't the gun's problem, but the human behind it.
> however, if the gun wasn't immediately to hand, the human couldn't use it.



But as I believe has been mentioned in other discussions here, if it wasn't a gun it would be a knife, or a bat, or fists, or a box of that awful movie-house candy.

Ease of use of a weapon isn't the prime consideration here, I think ... given the wrong state of mind, _anything_ can become a weapon. We don't normally consider circular dining tables to be weapons, yet I once had a gent lift one up and throw it at me. Books and magazines can kill. A pencil can kill. 

It's knowledge and application of technique. All the rest is just (im)material.


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## Jackie22 (Jan 17, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> No it isn't the gun's problem, but the human behind it.
> however, if the gun wasn't immediately to hand, the human couldn't use it.



I agree, Vivjen, there are too many guns available.  We need sensible gun control.


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## Vivjen (Jan 17, 2014)

Yes Phil, I agree, and a knife can kill as quickly as a gun....but one does have to be nearer to use a lot of these, except a circular dining table..


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## SifuPhil (Jan 17, 2014)

Vivjen said:


> Yes Phil, I agree, and a knife can kill as quickly as a gun....but one does have to be nearer to use a lot of these, except a circular dining table..



Well, at least in this case, I believe he was close enough to use a knife - adjoining rows, I think the article said? 

Yeah, that dining table, that was a tough one ... luckily there were no place settings, just beer cans.


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## Della (Oct 12, 2021)

I don't understand the gun culture, either. I've never had one in the house or car and will live out my life without one.

But another thing I don't understand is the texting culture that can't go ten minutes without texting someone, and I don't really think it matters whether he was texting his daughter or someone else. 

 The theatre rules said no texting.  He had to text anyway.  The man behind him asked him to stop.  He kept right on texting.  The man behind him went to get a manager, came back without one and was taunted by the texter. 

  Of course he didn't deserve to die and the shooter deserves prison, but I have to ask myself -- why the heck didn't he stop texting?  Why did he think the rules didn't apply to him?


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 12, 2021)

Della said:


> I don't understand the gun culture, either. I've never had one in the house or car and will live out my life without one.
> 
> But another thing I don't understand is the texting culture that can't go ten minutes without texting someone, and I don't really think it matters whether he was texting his daughter or someone else.
> 
> ...


Wow! This thread is 7-1/2 years old. How'd you come across it?


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## Della (Oct 12, 2021)

Oops.  I hadn't noticed the date.  I just happened to see the title and thought it was new.


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## Tom 86 (Oct 12, 2021)

rkunsaw said:


> It's not the guns or the knives that is the problem. In the United States people have always had guns and knives. When I was in school nearly every boy in school had a knife in his pocket. But if two boys got into a fight they fought with fists, no thought of pulling out a knife.
> 
> There was also guns in nearly every household. But there were no mass murders.
> 
> ...


So true.  When I went to school every guy/gals truck or car had a rifle in it.  We would take them into the shop to work on them.  After school, we would all go even our teachers to the dump & shoot rats.  No one shot anyone in the schools back then.

  Around here there are a lot of elderly women buying shotguns to protect themselves in their houses.  On News almost every morning there is a perp shot breaking into someone's house.  There are no charges against the person.  

When I talk with my sheriff & ask about a perp getting into my house can I shoot him?  He said just make sure he is dead, if not he will sue you & take everything you got. 

  It's been stated in the news that the USA has more armed people than all of Russia, China, Iran's military put together.  So they don't want to mess with the USA. 

  Another old saying here in the states. " You don't take a knife to a gunfight"


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## mellowyellow (Oct 12, 2021)

It’s sad that someone would think it was necessary to bring a gun to the movies, it could keep people away.


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## Buckeye (Oct 12, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> It’s sad that someone would think it was necessary to bring a gun to the movies, it could keep people away.


It's the parking lot before and after that are the most likely threat.


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## WheatenLover (Oct 13, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> Around here there are a lot of elderly women buying shotguns to protect themselves in their houses.  On News almost every morning there is a perp shot breaking into someone's house.  There are no charges against the person.


My mother's house was broken into 4 times while she was at work. Once, when she was ill with a migraine (I had to take her to the ER because her temp was way below normal), I visited her. She had a handgun on her nightstand. She, who had never handled a gun before, and had no training about that at all). A friend gave it to her so she could shoot any person who broke into her house while she was there.

I forced her to give it back to her friend. I called my brother, and he gave her his beloved Rottweiler. He had to trick her into taking the dog by telling her he was going to take it to the pound if she didn't give it a home. (I'm using "it" so I don't get mixed up with the he's and she's). This was the most gentle dog my mom had ever had.  She dearly loved her(the dog). Anyway, just having the dog solved the problem.

My dog, OTOH, barks like he's going to eat someone for dinner. Then, if the stranger (just to him, always a friend) dares to come into the house, the dog transforms into the happiest, most affectionate creature around. He would lead a burglar to the family silver (or whatever is valuable these days). Of course, when we lived out in the country, no one was afraid of my dogs. It was a relief. In 12 years, no crime, and we never locked our doors. Mostly because we were in the habit of that having lived in a very low crime area for 15 years before that.


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## rgp (Oct 13, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> My mother's house was broken into 4 times while she was at work. Once, when she was ill with a migraine (I had to take her to the ER because her temp was way below normal), I visited her. She had a handgun on her nightstand. She, who had never handled a gun before, and had no training about that at all). A friend gave it to her so she could shoot any person who broke into her house while she was there.
> 
> I forced her to give it back to her friend. I called my brother, and he gave her his beloved Rottweiler. He had to trick her into taking the dog by telling her he was going to take it to the pound if she didn't give it a home. (I'm using "it" so I don't get mixed up with the he's and she's). This was the most gentle dog my mom had ever had.  She dearly loved her(the dog). Anyway, just having the dog solved the problem.
> 
> My dog, OTOH, barks like he's going to eat someone for dinner. Then, if the stranger (just to him, always a friend) dares to come into the house, the dog transforms into the happiest, most affectionate creature around. He would lead a burglar to the family silver (or whatever is valuable these days). Of course, when we lived out in the country, no one was afraid of my dogs. It was a relief. In 12 years, no crime, and we never locked our doors. Mostly because we were in the habit of that having lived in a very low crime area for 15 years before that.



 I would rather have a burglar laying on the floor with a bullet in his head ..... then laying there with a dog bite .


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## WheatenLover (Oct 13, 2021)

rgp said:


> I would rather have a burglar laying on the floor with a bullet in his head ..... then laying there with a dog bite .


My mother would have had the gun taken from her before she had a chance to shoot it, and if she had, she would have probably missed. Anyway, having the Rottweiler worked. And Rottie, or not, her house was never burglarized during the remaining 30 years of her life.

Personally, I would never give a gun to a neophyte who hadn't been trained to use it and taught gun safety.


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## Tom 86 (Oct 13, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> My mother's house was broken into 4 times while she was at work. Once, when she was ill with a migraine (I had to take her to the ER because her temp was way below normal), I visited her. She had a handgun on her nightstand. She, who had never handled a gun before, and had no training about that at all). A friend gave it to her so she could shoot any person who broke into her house while she was there.
> 
> I forced her to give it back to her friend. I called my brother, and he gave her his beloved Rottweiler. He had to trick her into taking the dog by telling her he was going to take it to the pound if she didn't give it a home. (I'm using "it" so I don't get mixed up with the he's and she's). This was the most gentle dog my mom had ever had.  She dearly loved her(the dog). Anyway, just having the dog solved the problem.
> 
> My dog, OTOH, barks like he's going to eat someone for dinner. Then, if the stranger (just to him, always a friend) dares to come into the house, the dog transforms into the happiest, most affectionate creature around. He would lead a burglar to the family silver (or whatever is valuable these days). Of course, when we lived out in the country, no one was afraid of my dogs. It was a relief. In 12 years, no crime, and we never locked our doors. Mostly because we were in the habit of that having lived in a very low crime area for 15 years before that.


That's good about the dog.  The only problem is burglars come in groups of 3 or more. So one dog could not take them all on.  Also if he did & they laid on the floor bleeding then when they got up they would sue your mother & take everything.  

Too many older people here that don't have a weapon of some kind either get beaten real bad that puts them in the hospital or laying on the bed or floor dead.

  Here every person that gets a handgun or shotgun has to go through training on how to use it.   As RGP says dead burglars on the floor are better than dog bites. They don't have to go to court for many years, also when they do get out they can't sue you for wounding them.


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## WheatenLover (Oct 13, 2021)

rgp said:


> I would rather have a burglar laying on the floor with a bullet in his head ..... then laying there with a dog bite .


When I moved to Boston, my cousin came over to tell me that, if I shot a burglar, I'd better make sure his entire body was inside my house.

I don't own a gun, but if I did, I would only shoot someone in self-defense or in defense of others. For that to work, in many states it requires that the person be in reasonable fear of their life. What is reasonable sometimes depends on what the jury thinks.


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## WheatenLover (Oct 13, 2021)

Tom 86 said:


> That's good about the dog.  The only problem is burglars come in groups of 3 or more. So one dog could not take them all on.  Also if he did & they laid on the floor bleeding then when they got up they would sue your mother & take everything.
> 
> Too many older people here that don't have a weapon of some kind either get beaten real bad that puts them in the hospital or laying on the bed or floor dead.
> 
> Here every person that gets a handgun or shotgun has to go through training on how to use it.   As RGP says dead burglars on the floor are better than dog bites. They don't have to go to court for many years, also when they do get out they can't sue you for wounding them.


These burglars made sure they were breaking into an empty house. My mother's house had those keys made of iron -- I think they are called skeleton keys. She figured the Rottweiler would keep them out, and it did. I'm not recommending Rottie's for personal safety.

I know someone whose house was broken into after they'd been gone for only an hour. The burglar(s) shot their dog 5 times, and  killed it.

I believe I would shoot someone if my life or that of another were in danger. Not now though. My hands were shaking when I picked up a cup to rinse my mouth at the dentist. I have neuropathy in both hands, a side effect of chemo, but it is gradually getting better. I could not hold a gun steady enough to shoot straight. I can't even hold a drill (yet) which pisses me off, because I have cause to use one.

I guess burglary is uncommon in some places, and more common in others. None of the houses I've lived in have been burglarized. I've just relied on my bat and my iron skillet (neither of which would do me any good now). I only personally know two people who have been burglarized (my mom and the people whose dog was killed). I realize this is anecdotal evidence, and doesn't mean tomorrow it won't occur. I just knocked on wood.


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## Capt Lightning (Oct 13, 2021)

In the UK, and Scotland in particular, the idea is to punish everyone because someone must be guilty.  The Dunblane massacre was mentioned and because of the actions of one man with a legally held gun,  handguns were banned.  There is still gun crime - often between rival gangs,  and plenty of illegal guns in circulation.

I somewhat disagree with Vivjen , in that how we Brits behave varies geographically.  Scotland is relatively  sparsely populated and we are quite friendly, outgoing and talkative.  Hunting, shooting and fishing, while regulated,   are a big part of rural life.  Rather than being hunted to extinction, deer herds are managed to stop their numbers increasing  too much.  Shooting is for food, not simply sport and fishing is almost all "catch and release".   When I lived in Hampshire, I found the locals were uncommunicative. You almost needed a letter of introduction to say 'hello'.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 13, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> My mother would have had the gun taken from her before she had a chance to shoot it, and if she had, she would have probably missed. Anyway, having the Rottweiler worked. And Rottie, or not, her house was never burglarized during the remaining 30 years of her life.
> 
> Personally, I would never give a gun to a neophyte who hadn't been trained to use it and taught gun safety.


You're exactly right.  Giving a gun to someone who has had no instruction to get familiar with it, and no practice using it is a stupid idea, although well-intentioned.  They would take it away from her, or she could end up shooting herself.  So happy she had the option of a loving Rottie, dogs definitely are a deterrent to those who want to break into a house and commit a crime.  We never had any issues with someone breaking into our home, and I doubt we will in our lifetime, but it's always wise to have some sense of security, a gun, dogs, alarms, etc.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 13, 2021)

WheatenLover said:


> These burglars made sure they were breaking into an empty house. My mother's house had those keys made of iron -- I think they are called skeleton keys. She figured the Rottweiler would keep them out, and it did. I'm not recommending Rottie's for personal safety.
> 
> I know someone whose house was broken into after they'd been gone for only an hour. The burglar(s) shot their dog 5 times, and  killed it.
> 
> ...


Older folks definitely have to be smart about what they can or can't handle anymore depending on their physical condition and medical issues.  You're smart to take this all into consideration, all seniors should.  I'm not paranoid about being attacked or ripped off by a criminal, but I tell you, getting my big black fry pan from stove to table takes some effort these days, doubt I'd effectively be able to lift and swing to stop or kill an attacker.


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