# Do You Believe in an  Eternal Hell



## Serenity4321 (Mar 28, 2021)

Hope this topic is ok.  I can not accept the idea of an eternal hell. I still think it was a teaching specifically to 'control the masses'
What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity. I accept karma and the need to atone for wrongdoing in some way or another, but not eternal damnation.
This may be why I also am slowly accepting the idea of reincarnation, though I am not totally 'happy' with it 
 Still, it seems to be a 'just' method to work out our challenges and misdeeds.


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## SetWave (Mar 28, 2021)

I choose to not give the idea credence. But who the . . . hell . . . knows?
Personally, I've got my eye on a better afterlife; assuming there just might be one.
I agree it has been used to control the masses. The impure Puritans were terrific at it. As I recall from school, they had everyone believing they were all going to hell, except for the minister, and there was nothing they could do about it but continually atone for their sins.


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## tbeltrans (Mar 28, 2021)

...and here I always thought we were going to hell in a handbasket!    

Tony


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## Chet (Mar 28, 2021)

No.


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## Keesha (Mar 28, 2021)

No. It’s a temporary one.


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## MarciKS (Mar 28, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Hope this topic is ok.  I can not accept the idea of an eternal hell. I still think it was a teaching specifically to 'control the masses'
> What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity. I accept karma and the need to atone for wrongdoing in some way or another, but not eternal damnation.
> This may be why I also am slowly accepting the idea of reincarnation, though I am not totally 'happy' with it
> Still, it seems to be a 'just' method to work out our challenges and misdeeds.


_What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity?_

*One who has been rejected by unbelievers. One who refuses to accept evil in the kingdom of heaven. That's what God.*


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## asp3 (Mar 28, 2021)

Nope.

I also don't believe in souls, afterlife, heaven or god.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 28, 2021)

*I don't believe in Hell. I think we live in hell when we are alive. What pain could be worse than losing a loved one while you are alive? To me, there is no greater pain than that.*


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## Ruthanne (Mar 28, 2021)

Sometimes it seems I'm already there.


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## tbeltrans (Mar 28, 2021)

Unfortunately, there is also a song in this.  Dwelling on growing up I am probably not alone in this one...






Tony


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## Ruth n Jersey (Mar 28, 2021)

I don't know just like I'm not sure about heaven or where, how and under what circumstances we get there. I just hope I go in the right direction when my time comes so I can see my loved ones. 
If for some reason I'm sent the other way I hope it isn't permanent and I'm sure not going to shovel any coal to keep the fires burning without AC.


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## officerripley (Mar 28, 2021)

Here's a thought of mine: Meriam Webster says that one of the definitions for punishment is "correction." And I think that most good parents punishing a child or a good pet owner punishing a pet, let's say, is doing it to *correct* wrongful behavior, to teach correct behavior, etc. Sooo, what would then be the point of *eternal* after-life punishment? So then that leads us to the punishment not being done to correct or teach but because of meanness. JMO, of course.


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## tbeltrans (Mar 28, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Here's a thought of mine: Meriam Webster says that one of the definitions for punishment is "correction." And I think that most good parents punishing a child or a good pet owner punishing a pet, let's say, is doing it to *correct* wrongful behavior, to teach correct behavior, etc. Sooo, what would then be the point of *eternal* after-life punishment? So then that leads us to the punishment not being done to correct or teach but because of meanness. JMO, of course.


I like this.  There was (and maybe still is?) a program called "Scared Straight" in which hard prisoners told their stories both in and out of prison to early offenders with the intent to get them to realize that this path was bound for severe hardship.  

Reading your post gets me thinking that just maybe the "fire and brimstone" crowd may have been doing the same thing to get people to get baptized, rather than because they supposedly had the inside track on what happens after we die.

Tony


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## Remy (Mar 28, 2021)

I don't either.

Sometimes I wonder if this life is paying for something I did in a past life. Though people live much worse lives.


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## officerripley (Mar 28, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> I like this.  There was (and maybe still is?) a program called "Scared Straight" in which hard prisoners told their stories both in and out of prison to early offenders with the intent to get them to realize that this path was bound for severe hardship.
> 
> Reading your post gets me thinking that just maybe the "fire and brimstone" crowd may have been doing the same thing to get people to get baptized, rather than because they supposedly had the inside track on what happens after we die.
> 
> Tony


You know, the more I think about this, the thought I posted above may answer a question I've had for a while now: Why do some people prefer--I've seen and heard them come right out and say it--a ruthless, unreasonably-authoritarian, unforgiving, "strongman"-type in an political leader? (Can't find the quote & who said it right now but I think it was a Republican referring to how Jimmy Carter was "too nice" to be President and he'd rather have the meanest son-of-a-gun in office.) I guess it's because some people believe in a supreme being who is a mean son-of-a-gun? I wonder.


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## J.B Books (Mar 28, 2021)

To answer the OP question.

yes


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## chic (Mar 28, 2021)

I never used to but now I do. It's called covid 19.


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## Dana (Mar 28, 2021)

_
No..I do not believe in eternal hell. Heaven and hell reside right here on earth and we have a choice where we want to dwell. I believe in_


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## peramangkelder (Mar 28, 2021)




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## Tommy (Mar 28, 2021)

Absolutely yes, and an eternal heaven as well.


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## Sunny (Mar 28, 2021)

I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would believe in such a place. It was obviously invented to scare people. (But I read Dante's Inferno in college, and I have to admit it was pretty entertaining!)


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## drifter (Mar 28, 2021)

I don’t think so unless this one is it.


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## tbeltrans (Mar 28, 2021)

As quantum physicists are beginning to put together theories of multiple universes, parallel or within, some of these religious concepts start to become more possible to those of us on the outside looking in.  As usual, regarding the existence of heaven and hell, I honestly haven't a clue.  I don't understand how I could possibly know.  

However, those here who talked about our own heaven and hell on earth, made immediate sense to me.  We each experience the world differently, and that changes all the time.  You can have two people sitting in the same room and one can be having an awful day while the other may be walking on clouds with happiness.  It is said that it isn't what happens to us, but how we react to it in our own minds that determines how we feel and therefore, the inner quality of our lives (i.e. the heaven or hell here on earth).  

Knowing that and being able to live it such that we are generally above what is happening around us, are two very different things unfortunately.  But I do suspect that this is the crux of heaven or hell on earth - a state of mind.  I don't see that as the same thing as the religious sense of heaven and hell as places we go after we die, but I do think that our mental health while here on earth is of vital importance to our life experience.

Tony


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## Gary O' (Mar 28, 2021)

If you wanna get biblical;

There is a hell
There's no *endless *burning in agony
There'll be some
Then gone......for eternity

There's choices to be made

It's kinda like partying all yer life, then, getting cirrhosis of the liver

Yer gonna die...forever.....there's some agony involved 




Serenity4321 said:


> What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity



No condemnation
He gave the dearest He had

His Son died the eternal death....
That's why the agony in the garden
......the separation from The Father
Death

I had trouble with this for awhile
I mean, I have friends who gave their lives for others

But, God the Son......died the eternal one

So we could live

It's our choice


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## Marie5656 (Mar 28, 2021)

*Maybe not fire and brimstone, but something. My feeling has always been, that if your faith allows for your to believe Heaven exists, it seems the opposite must also exist.  Seems a rather simplistic belief, but one to ponder.*


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## Lara (Mar 28, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> _What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity?_
> 
> *One who has been rejected by unbelievers. One who refuses to accept evil in the kingdom of heaven. That's what God.*


I agree Marci and I think this is also a good answer for 
"What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity" (source posted below)

God is not only love, but He is perfect justice as well. Justice requires adequate payment for crimes committed. The only just punishment for high treason against our perfect Creator is eternal separation from Him. That separation means the absence of goodness, light, relationship, and joy, which are all facets of God’s nature. 

To excuse our sin would require God to be less than just, and to allow sin-tainted humans into His perfect heaven would render that place less than perfect. That’s why only the perfect Son of God could go to the cross in our place. Only His perfect blood was an acceptable payment for the debt we each owe God (Colossians 2:14). When we refuse Jesus as our substitute, we must pay the price ourselves (Romans 6:23).

God gave us the freedom to choose how we respond to Him. If He forced us to love Him, we would be robots. To give us no option but obedience would be a violation of our free will.

Here is the full answer for those interested: https://www.gotquestions.org/loving-God-send-someone-hell.html


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## ohioboy (Mar 28, 2021)

If Heaven or Hell do not exist, Evolution fully explains where man came from, and that I can't buy. The human body is so medically and scientifically complex how can it form from simple microbes?

If there is no after-life concern, Hitler faced NO punishment for the murder of millions, including tens of thousands of innocent children, since has was not alive for the Nuremberg trials.

The ancient Codes, Justinian, Hammurabi, Draco, were meant as deterents to evil just as the 10 commandments mandate. If we generally accept philosophies of after-life like Pascal's Wager, were covered.

BILLIONS of people follow some Divinity, while there are not Billions of doubters.

Does this mean you have to believe or not believe in a Christian God to enter Heaven? NO imo. If a person leads a good life, obeys the morals of society and the 10 commandment's, even if they do not believe, do they go to Hell when they die. NO, imo. That's where the Dogma of Purgatory enters in.

Let's assume a Higher, greater power exists that created Mankind, that is billions of individual human brains.

Let's look under a microscope at some sperm and ovum. How can that glob of gloop, as some call it, transform into bones, a heart, two eyes and ears, liver, stomach, pancreas legs, feet, larynx, etc., especially inside the Womb, by Evolution??

So yes, I believe in a GOD and eternal punishment for the unredeemed evil and wicked.

All the evils of society are putrid to me.  I do not rape, murder, kidnap, molest anyone, steal, fool around with the neighbor's wife, etc.


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## MarciKS (Mar 28, 2021)

He's already chosen all of us. He's just waiting for us to choose Him in return. On judgement day I want to be recognized as one of His children. I have no desire to be separated from the only one whose ever really truly loved me. On that note...I am bowing out of this discussion.


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## Gary O' (Mar 28, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Let's look under a microscope at some sperm and ovum. How can that glob of gloop, as some call it, transform into bones, a heart, two eyes and ears, liver, stomach, pancreas legs, feet larynx, etc., especially inside the Womb, by Evolution??


It's akin to taking a watch apart, 
putting all the teeny weeny parts in a bag
and shaking it

Expecting a watch to appear after a few bazillion years


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## ohioboy (Mar 28, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> It's akin to taking a watch apart,
> putting all the teeny weeny parts in a bag
> and shaking it
> 
> Expecting a watch to appear after a few bazillion years



Some scientists are now of an opinion of a God, not necessarily by faith, but on this basis: DNA Coding requires Intelligence: not being assembled like Herman Munster.


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## Gary O' (Mar 28, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Some scientists are now of an opinion of a God


That consensus is growing as discoveries increase
Even staunch atheists


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 28, 2021)

NO!  When we die we are released from the hell, known as earth.


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## Keesha (Mar 28, 2021)

Yep! We sure are.


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## officerripley (Mar 28, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> NO!  When we die we are released from the hell, known as earth.


  And I also think that humans made this earth hell all on their own without help from anything or anybody.


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## Dana (Mar 28, 2021)

_I had a religious upbringing and for which I am eternally grateful because I feel it has been a blue print on how I should conduct my life. I believe in a Spiritual Power that is so divine and so powerful and cannot imagine my life without this belief...I choose to call that Divine Power God or Father.

However, I also accept other religions and other beliefs ..I will not dispute anyone when they say they believe or not. Having said all the above, I have relaxed views about the Bible, which I might add I almost know by heart having been educated in a Catholic convent school.

As far as anyone is aware, Jesus never left us even a single page of writing.
Indeed, in all the New Testament, Jesus did not even command His apostles and disciples to spread His Gospel through the written words.
The sixty-six books that make up the Bible were written over a span of approximately 1,100 years …there were over 40 authors of the Bible. As is normal with authors, many wrote as they saw fit. Who knows what is true or what is written with poetic license, particularly when it comes to "eternal hell_."


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## digifoss (Mar 28, 2021)

Eternal separation from God,  not literally roasting over an open fire, but similarly agonizing once you understand the enormity and permanency of having made such a choice


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## fmdog44 (Mar 28, 2021)

A temporary hell would be like a jail term.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 28, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> If you wanna get biblical;
> 
> There is a hell
> There's no *endless *burning in agony
> ...


And also some don't party their entire life and get cirrhosis of the liver just to clarify that.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

Dana said:


> _Who knows what is true or what is written with poetic license, particularly when it comes to "eternal hell_."


That's where faith comes in. God wants us to "Study thyself to be approved". He didn't want to make it too clear. He wants us engaged in it. If you cross-reference and read everything in context then there are absolutely no contradictions...it's amazing. That's why the Bible has lasted this long...in fact, it's been at the top of the best-sellers list since it was first written.

I didn't know that Jesus never commanded his disciples to write down his words, as you say, but I don't see where that was necessary since the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They just wanted to share and spread the good news (that the prophesy of the coming of the Messiah had been fullfilled and our sins were now forgiven for believers). So it just happened via the Holy Spirit.


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## Capt Lightning (Mar 29, 2021)

I believe that there's no God, no heaven and no hell (in the religious sense).  When you're dead, you're dead.  When you're alive, you can experience real happiness and extreme misery - and that's probably the nearest people get to 'heaven and hell'.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Dana said:


> _I had a religious upbringing and for which I am eternally grateful because I feel it has been a blue print on how I should conduct my life. I believe in a Spiritual Power that is so divine and so powerful and cannot imagine my life without this belief...I choose to call that Divine Power God or Father.
> 
> However, I also accept other religions and other beliefs ..I will not dispute anyone when they say they believe or not. Having said all the above, I have relaxed views about the Bible, which I might add I almost know by heart having been educated in a Catholic convent school.
> 
> ...


Amen to what you’ve written.  

The Bible is a sort of history book of the people’s beliefs of the time period, divinely inspired so to speak IMO.  The Ten Commandants, written on stone, are the only writings that come close, IMO, to being the writing of God, of a GOD.  Many of the books of the Bible that were discovered were disapproved of by the early Catholic Church and burned.

Later books have been discounted.  I was raised Southern Baptist amd my dear grandmother took me to many tent revivals during my early years.  Those revivals are well represented in the older black and white movies as far as “believers and Bible thumpers” are concerned.  Religion was black and white for them.

A great many people are “woke” now about the Bible being a history book, I agree with what you have said, very well written.


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## Dana (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> That's where faith comes in. God wants us to "Study thyself to be approved". He didn't want to make it too clear. He wants us engaged in it. If you cross-reference and read everything in context then there are absolutely no contradictions...it's amazing. That's why the Bible has lasted this long...in fact, it's been at the top of the best-sellers list since it was first written.
> 
> I didn't know that Jesus never commanded his disciples to write down his words, as you say, but I don't see where that was necessary since the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They just wanted to share and spread the good news (that the prophesy of the coming of the Messiah had been fullfilled and our sins were now forgiven for believers). So it just happened via the Holy Spirit.



_I appreciate your comment Lara...but we shall just have to agree to disagree on some things. Have a blessed Easter _


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## Dana (Mar 29, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> If Heaven or Hell do not exist, Evolution fully explains where man came from, and that I can't buy. The human body is so medically and scientifically complex how can it form from simple microbes?
> 
> If there is no after-life concern, Hitler faced NO punishment for the murder of millions, including tens of thousands of innocent children, since has was not alive for the Nuremberg trials.
> 
> ...



_Quoting ohioboy: “The human body is so medically and scientifically complex how can it form from simple microbes?”

How indeed! This is how!  _





_*We are all microbes...we started life in the ocean billions of years ago. How can anyone look at the fertilization of a human egg and not understand that!*_


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> That's where faith comes in. God wants us to "Study thyself to be approved". He didn't want to make it too clear. He wants us engaged in it. If you cross-reference and read everything in context then there are absolutely no contradictions...it's amazing. That's why the Bible has lasted this long...in fact, it's been at the top of the best-sellers list since it was first written.
> 
> I didn't know that Jesus never commanded his disciples to write down his words, as you say, but I don't see where that was necessary since the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. They just wanted to share and spread the good news (that the prophesy of the coming of the Messiah had been fullfilled and our sins were now forgiven for believers). So it just happened via the Holy Spirit.


The Holy Ghost was renamed the Holy Spirit because the word ghost scared the little children .  Just saying.  Not every religion recognizes the Bible, or recognizes both testaments of the Bible, and not everyone on SF or in the world is Christian.

The Bible is the best selling book in the world because Christian organizations buy the Bible in multiple forms and give those bibles away as they try to convert the world to Christianity.  It’s not individuals buying those bibles up as if the word of God is the latest greatest murder mystery ever written.  

The Bible is full of contradictions, IMO, as experts have noted.  I have my own little personal drama going on so I may have missed your answer to the question in the thread.  Do you believe in an eternal hell?


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

digifoss said:


> Eternal separation from God,  not literally roasting over an open fire, but similarly agonizing once you understand the enormity and permanency of having made such a choice


The eternal separation from FAMILY would be agonizing once you “understand the enormity and permanency of having made such a choice”.  That is the danger, IMO.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

*Handshake* Dana 

Aneeda, regarding contradictions in the Bible, IMO there are none when read in context and cross referenced. God reveals the truth but everyone receives it in a different way...including "experts". Unless they have been filled with the Holy Spirit (including theologians) before reading the Bible then the Bible says they are "blinded to the truth" and further warns to "beware of wolves in sheeps clothing". I say this according to my faith and we can disagree.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> *Handshake* Dana
> 
> Aneeda, regarding contradictions in the Bible, IMO there are none when read in context and cross referenced. God reveals the truth but everyone receives it in a different way...including "experts". Unless they have been filled with the Holy Spirit (including theologians) before reading the Bible then the Bible says they are "blinded to the truth" and further warns to "beware of wolves in sheeps clothing". I say this according to my faith and we can disagree.


And we do, disagree and there is nothing wrong with that


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)

In my opinion, the fact that the Bible is so filled with frustrating contradiction is the very reason why I could never finish it. It’s certainly some of  the most confusing literature ever written. Again, in my opinion. I do  however think it has some very beautifully written relatable verses . These lessons are also shared in other  books besides the Bible.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

I sometimes get confused reading the Bible too, but I know in my heart that God is not the author of confusion. So I pray first and ask him to open my eyes, fill me with his Holy Spirit, clean me up inside, and then reveal to me what he wants me to know. 

If I'm still confused then I become pro-active and start studying, cross-referencing, and maybe going to someone I trust like my pastor to discuss it. There's one online source I really trust and that's GotQuestions.org.

I think that's why the Bible leaves us with many questions....He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved" 2Timothy 2:15


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> I sometimes get confused reading the Bible too, but I know in my heart that God is not the author of confusion. So I pray first and ask him to open my eyes, fill me with his Holy Spirit, clean me up inside, and then reveal to me what he wants me to know.
> 
> If I'm still confused then I become pro-active and start studying, cross-referencing, and maybe going to someone I trust like my pastor to discuss it. There's one online source I really trust and that's GotQuestions.org.
> 
> I think that's why the Bible leaves us with many questions....He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved" 2Timothy 2:15


But not everyone believes in the Bible -you should be sensitive to other religious beliefs or disbeliefs.  I urge you again, to start you own thread on your beliefs where people who want to comment can and be free to agree or disagree with you.

The question, on this thread, is do you believe in eternal hell?


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> But not everyone believes in the Bible -you should be sensitive to other religious beliefs or disbeliefs. I urge you again, to start you own thread on your beliefs where people who want to comment can and be free to agree or disagree with you.
> 
> The question, on this thread, is do you believe in eternal hell?
> I have my own little personal drama going on so I may have missed your answer to the question in the thread.  Do you believe in an eternal hell?



Don't forget that the subject of Eternal Hell came from the Bible...so there's no getting around discussing it here.

I am very respectful and tolerant of everyone's right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You should be that way towards my beliefs as well. I don't need to start my own thread when there are already many active religious threads going that are asking us all for our opinions.

I'm sorry if my faith makes you uncomfortable. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind nor do I expect to on the internet. I always let others agree and disagree. Why not? It's really odd that you said that even.

I thoroughly answered the eternal hell question in Post #26


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> I thoroughly answered the eternal hell question in Post #26
> 
> I am very respectful and tolerant of everyone's right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. I don't need to start my own thread when there are already many active threads going that are asking us all for our opinions.
> 
> ...


Oh, thanks, didn’t see it, will check it out when I get back from the doctors.  Your faith doesn’t make me uncomfortable but I don’t want to drift too far off the thread subject as I tend to do that, a lot.  I like Bible discussions and religious discussions and simply think it would be a better way to have a discussion with you.  I am curious always about others beliefs.

But if you are not comfortable starting a thread, then no problem.  But it would be wrong to deep dive into these issues on this thread, IMO.  And I can’t do it now anyway, cause I am having a bit of a crisis and my guardian angel says *to keep my big mouth shut.  Alrighty then.*


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> I sometimes get confused reading the Bible too, but I know in my heart that God is not the author of confusion. So I pray first and ask him to open my eyes, fill me with his Holy Spirit, clean me up inside, and then reveal to me what he wants me to know.
> 
> If I'm still confused then I become pro-active and start studying, cross-referencing, and maybe going to someone I trust like my pastor to discuss it. There's one online source I really trust and that's GotQuestions.org.
> 
> I think that's why the Bible leaves us with many questions....He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved" 2Timothy 2:15


Which is why I purchased a new book to see if I could understand it any better since I’d prefer to be led by spirit and not my own ego. It’s not that I’m a new believer in God. I’ve always believed.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

@Keesha  I love your spirit of openess to all types of threads and subjects.

I got to thinking that the Senior Forums offer a little of everything for all of us to enjoy.
From discussions about Eternal Hell to a popular discussion about toilet paper on a boat
It's a beautiful thing that Matrix has made possible for Seniors...we can all find something of interest.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> _What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity?_
> 
> *One who has been rejected by unbelievers. One who refuses to accept evil in the kingdom of heaven. That's what God.*


I believe that God is unconditionally loving and  understands not everyone learns at the same pace, so He/She  will give everyone as many chances as needed until they finally 'get it'


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Here's a thought of mine: Meriam Webster says that one of the definitions for punishment is "correction." And I think that most good parents punishing a child or a good pet owner punishing a pet, let's say, is doing it to *correct* wrongful behavior, to teach correct behavior, etc. Sooo, what would then be the point of *eternal* after-life punishment? So then that leads us to the punishment not being done to correct or teach but because of meanness. JMO, of course.


officerripley ..I like the idea of correction..and think there is truth in your idea...


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Which is why I purchased a new book to see if I could understand it any better since I’d prefer to be led by spirit and not my own ego. It’s not that I’m a new believer in God. I’ve always believed.


I have read a lot about following spirit not ego. Have you ever read Vernon Howard or E Tolle? Or ACIM?


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## Sunny (Mar 29, 2021)

The three top religious "beliefs" in the world are Christianity, Islam, and Atheist.  The Atheist segment is growing rapidly.

One thing I wonder about is:  Is the belief in a place of eternal punishment, usually called Hell, only a product of the Christian religion? Or do other religions believe in Hell also?  I have only heard it referred to in a Christian context.  It is an evil idea, and comes from a place of fear, superstition, and a need for power over others.  There is absolutely no evidence of its existence. And saying, "That's where faith comes in" is no answer at all. You can say that about anything.  Faith is a nice-sounding world for echoing beliefs that are mostly ancient, repeated and taught down through the centuries, with no real evidence to back them up.

I am hardly an expert on Christianity, but I get the feeling that most Christian denominations have cut down on all that "hellfire" stuff, as people just weren't buying into it.  I think there's much more emphasis on "heaven."  An improvement, at least.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

Marie5656 said:


> *Maybe not fire and brimstone, but something. My feeling has always been, that if your faith allows for your to believe Heaven exists, it seems the opposite must also exist.  Seems a rather simplistic belief, but one to ponder.*


I think there needs to be atonement for wrongs done but IMO there is an infinite amount of time and opportunity to achieve that so there would not be a need for hell.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

Keesha said:


> In my opinion, the fact that the Bible is so filled with frustrating contradiction is the very reason why I could never finish it. It’s certainly some of  the most confusing literature ever written. Again, in my opinion. I do  however think it has some very beautifully written relatable verses . These lessons are also shared in other  books besides the Bible.


For me the Bible is open to many interpretations. Like a great work of art, it can  'speak' to an individual where they may need it and even changes as a person's need changes..


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> I sometimes get confused reading the Bible too, but I know in my heart that God is not the author of confusion. So I pray first and ask him to open my eyes, fill me with his Holy Spirit, clean me up inside, and then reveal to me what he wants me to know.
> 
> If I'm still confused then I become pro-active and start studying, cross-referencing, and maybe going to someone I trust like my pastor to discuss it. There's one online source I really trust and that's GotQuestions.org.
> 
> I think that's why the Bible leaves us with many questions....He wants us to "study to show ourselves approved" 2Timothy 2:15


Lara...I agree the Bible can be confusing but I also think it can say different things to different people and that is the beauty of any great work.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I think there needs to be atonement for wrongs done but IMO there is an infinite amount of time and opportunity to achieve that so there would not be a need for hell.


I'm thinking your post perhaps assumes one is going to live long enough to atone for all their wrongs (covid can take one in a matter of a few hours) and it assumes that the atonement for those wrongs is going to be a quick and sufficient fix....and it assumes there aren't as many wrongs committed as is possible. I believe we do wrongs multiple times everyday and there's no way we can pay the punishment all alone...not enough to be counted worthy to enter God's Kingdom.

Wrongs can be what we consider little but are wrongs none-the-less. Eating too much, too much money, too much of anything is gluttony and greed for instance...and that's one of the ten commandments. Having an unkind thought, selfishness, lack of self control...on and on. That's where Jesus stepped in, to atone for our wrongs for us.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I think there needs to be atonement for wrongs done but IMO there is an infinite amount of time and opportunity to achieve that so there would not be a need for hell.


But it’s not what “we” human beings think, it’s what GOD thinks, not JC but God the Father, and we have no insight into his thoughts.  He was not a GOD of love, but an angry God, a God of revenge, the God of the Old Testament.

A lot of people use God and JC interchangeably as if they are the same, they are not the same.  God rules heaven.  God demanded the sacrifice of his son (Christian belief of course) via the cross.  It was God, I think, that threw down angles from heaven.  It will be God the father, who judges, not JC IMO.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> I'm thinking your post perhaps assumes one is going to live long enough to atone for all their wrongs (covid can take one in a matter of a few hours) and it assumes that the atonement for those wrongs is going to be a quick and sufficient fix....and it assumes there aren't as many wrongs committed as is possible. I believe we do wrongs multiple times everyday and there's no way we can pay the punishment all alone...not enough to be counted worthy to enter God's Kingdom.
> 
> Wrongs can be what we consider little but are wrongs none-the-less. Eating too much, too much money, too much of anything is gluttony and greed for instance...and that's one of the ten commandments. Having an unkind thought, selfishness, lack of self control...on and on. That's where Jesus stepped in, to atone for our wrongs for us.


I read your post #26 before and I have read it again, but I still don’t see a simple yes I believe in an eternal hell, or no I do not. I have thought I over, and I believe you do believe in an ever lasting hell.  I do not.

The Pope said, a while back, everyone will go to heaven.  Then the Vatican tried to back walk it, and, like everything else, it became political.  . But I am going with the everyone goes to heaven concept because our time on earth is enough hell for us all, IMO.  And the Bible is just a history book.

As I said, and the Bible is clear, leave what belongs to the Romans to the Romans and what belongs to God to God.  God The Father will judge us all.  The rest is all rustlings in the wind.  IMO.


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I have read a lot about following spirit not ego. Have you ever read Vernon Howard or E Tolle? Or ACIM


Absolutely! I’ve literally read hundreds of books and listened to hundreds of tapes, videos, DVDs & podcasts on spirituality and when I actually practice what I’ve learned, my life goes smoothly and I’m blissfully in peace.

I’ve learned from the best spiritual teachers including Deepak Chopra, Byron Katie, Marianne Williamson, Elkhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer ( almost every book he wrote ) Jack Kornfield, Don Miguel Ruiz, Abraham Hicks, Neal Donald Walsh and others. The list is endless. When I read these types of books, life runs smoother and makes more sense. Life miraculously works.

When I get off track, I get stuck in negative patterns of behaviour that does not serve myself or others and instantly self sabotage.

Oddly enough a few months back my husband and I came to a roadblock where we decided to make some huge changes. We didn’t really have an exact plan. We just told the universe/God energy what we wanted , stood back and trusted that it would work. Coincidences kept happening to us where everything snapped together in synchronized perfection. There’s no way we did all that all on our own. It isn’t something I can not explain but it’s miraculous when we believe in it.



Serenity4321 said:


> For me the Bible is open to many interpretations. Like a great work of art, it can  'speak' to an individual where they may need it and even changes as a person's need changes..


I completely agree. It meets you where you are so is timeless in its teachings. I just find it a confusing read and probably always will.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 29, 2021)

*After reading all the posts and being a Catholic myself it makes me wonder that if God is all-powerful and sees someone committing a heinous crime, like torturing and then murdering a child,why doesn't God just intervene and kill the villian right then and there and not let the child go through any pain. Then there would be no need for Hell.*


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## Nathan (Mar 29, 2021)

Google search: "first mention of hell in the Bible"

Answer: 





> THE BIBLE GIVES THE LOCATION OF HELL
> 
> And in Matthew 12:40, Jesus Christ says: "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly: so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH. " The Bible is clear — Hell is inside the earth!



I'm rather surprised, I would have thought the concept of Hell to originate in the Old Testament.     I wondered if Jesus himself ever referenced Hell, here's what Christianity.com says:



> What Did Jesus Actually Teach about Hell?
> 
> We can summarize it like this: hell is the place of conscious, eternal torment where people experience God's punishment for their sin. Yes, hell is "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41), but also for those who join them in their rebellion against God (Matt 11:20–24). The horror of hell is such that Jesus says, "if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43). For those who do not enter the narrow door of faith and repentance in Jesus (Luke 13:24) a place of weeping and gnashing teeth awaits them (Luke 13:28).
> 
> ...


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)

Sassycakes said:


> *After reading all the posts and being a Catholic myself it makes me wonder that if God is all-powerful and sees someone committing a heinous crime, like torturing and then murdering a child,why doesn't God just intervene and kill the villian right then and there and not let the child go through any pain. Then there would be no need for Hell.*


I’m certainly no authoritarian in this subject but I believe it’s because he gives us ‘free will’ to do what we wish as humans. To intervene IS taking away our free will which is our greatest gift given. 
It’s not Gods fault humans use their free will to do horrible things that hurt others.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> the Bible is clear, leave what belongs to the Romans to the Romans and what belongs to God to God.


Huh? I'm unclear as to what this is. The Bible is clear where? I would like to read it. I'm not trying to make you prove it...I just want to educate myself because I'm confused


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> Huh? I'm unclear as to what this is. The Bible is clear where? I would like to read it. I'm not trying to make you prove it...I just want to educate myself because I'm confused


Oh gosh, I will try and look up the reference later


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## ohioboy (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> Huh? I'm unclear as to what this is. The Bible is clear where? I would like to read it. I'm not trying to make you prove it...I just want to educate myself because I'm confused



She is referencing when the Lord is shown coins with Ceasars image on it and the Lord says something like "What bears his image belongs to Ceasar, what bears my image belongs to me", or some such words.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

It's okay Aneeda. You don't have to if you dont want to. I was just curious. 

Oh thank you Ohioboy.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> It's okay Aneeda. You don't have to if you dont want to. I was just curious.
> 
> Oh thank you Ohioboy.


Oh, no I am pleased to do it and surprised you are not familiar with it.  There are several translations, basically its *Mark 12:17.  *Took very little time to find it but I am eating popcorn and taking my medicine in a bottle of crystal light so both hands are busy.

Anyhow it goes like this, some dudes are talking to JC about a Roman gold coin, “The Roman emperor’s people demand taxes from us.”  And JC says, *“Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine.”

I like this translation because it MAKES clear God is separate from JC, and each entity has their own agenda.  Everyone always has their own agenda, even the holy ones.  

still confused?*


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## ohioboy (Mar 29, 2021)

Aneeda "Render unto Ceasar what is Caesars".

https://biblehub.com/mark/12-17.htm


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## ohioboy (Mar 29, 2021)

Cross posts!


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Cross posts!


Yup, I read the Bible extensively as a child, but not since then.  As the saying goes, when I was a child I believed as a child, but I am an old woman now, a tad wiser and I stopped drinking the kool aide.


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## ohioboy (Mar 29, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yup, I read the Bible extensively as a child, but not since then.  As the saying goes, when I was a child I believed as a child, but I am an old woman now, a tad wiser and I stopped drinking the kool aide.


I actually meant that post for Lara but typed your name! food pa


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

What's in the bottle of Crystal Light you're drinking Aneeda??
And what does "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" have to do with eternal Hell?

That verse was talking about paying their taxes to Ceasar if they owed taxes. And likewise we should pay our taxes to our govt even though we don't agree with what they are using it for.

When Jesus said that he was drawing a sharp distinction between two kingdoms. There is a kingdom of this world, and Caesar holds power over it. But there is another kingdom, not of this world, and Jesus is King of that (John 18:36). Christians are part of both kingdoms, at least temporarily. Under Caesar, we have certain obligations that involve material things. Under Christ, we have other obligations that involve things eternal. If Caesar demands money, give it to him. But make sure you also give God what He demands.

This thread is about hell not taxes. I'm lost.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> What's in the bottle of Crystal Light you're drinking Aneeda??
> And what does "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" have to do with eternal Hell?
> 
> That verse was talking about paying their taxes to Ceasar if they owed taxes. And likewise we should pay our taxes to our govt even though we don't agree with what they are using it for.
> ...


I agree with you, you are lost.


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## mellowyellow (Mar 29, 2021)

This Easter Saturday I’ve been invited to attend a Catholic baptism ceremony of an adult and a 10 year old child. I’m not sure if they are taught about heaven and hell in these modern times, but it doesn’t matter, if it makes them happy, so be it.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> What's in the bottle of Crystal Light you're drinking Aneeda??
> And what does "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" have to do with eternal Hell?
> 
> That verse was talking about paying their taxes to Ceasar if they owed taxes. And likewise we should pay our taxes to our govt even though we don't agree with what they are using it for.
> ...


Oh, what medicine is in my bottle of crystal light?  Laxative, lots of laxative, want some?  Might help


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> This Easter Saturday I’ve been invited to attend a Catholic baptism ceremony of an adult and a 10 year old child. I’m not sure if they are taught about heaven and hell in these modern times, but it doesn’t matter, if it makes them happy, so be it.


I was baptized Catholic in my 40’s.  I had never been baptized before and I got the full dunking.


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## mellowyellow (Mar 29, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I was baptized Catholic in my 40’s.  I had never been baptized before and I got the full dunking.


I'll let you know what happens in a 2021 ceremony, sound like they need swim suits.


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

That was just a rhetorical question Aneeda and meant to be funny. Sorry 'bout that


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## Lara (Mar 29, 2021)

Well, it's time for me to bow out of this thread because I think I've said all I have to say...and then some 
(I think I hear cheering in the rafters). Thanks for putting up with me everybody. It was a good thread, Serenity


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## RadishRose (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara said:


> What's in the bottle of Crystal Light you're drinking Aneeda??
> And what does "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" have to do with eternal Hell?
> 
> That verse was talking about paying their taxes to Ceasar if they owed taxes. And likewise we should pay our taxes to our govt even though we don't agree with what they are using it for.
> ...


Lara this is what I was taught also,,, render to Caesar what is Caesar's ...in answer to paying one's taxes and one's bills. I don't recall this piece of advice having anything to do with Hell.


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)

Here are some of my spiritual books. They are my favourite type of book to read. I’m always uplifted whenever I read one of these types of books. I love them all.


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## digifoss (Mar 29, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Lara this is what I was taught also,,, render to Caesar what is Caesar's ...in answer to paying one's taxes and one's bills. I don't recall this piece of advice having anything to do with Hell.


That is in regard to paying taxes, and there is also another meaning to this example but that is not for this thread.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 29, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Lara this is what I was taught also,,, render to Caesar what is Caesar's ...in answer to paying one's taxes and one's bills. I don't recall this piece of advice having anything to do with Hell.


It was hell living in Caesars time, it’s hell living in COVID-19 times, earth has always been hell, and, hell since we humans have been alive on earth.  But once we die, once I die, hell is/will be over.  Do I believe if hell is eternal, nope.  It will end when I die.

And there you go, the linkage between what I said and the title of the thread.  Apparently I have to spell it out.  I suppose I have flushed too many brain cells down the toilet, along with other stuff, and didn’t realize the linkage was not clear.  You got to look through the muck to see the prize.  

Any other questions?


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## J.B Books (Mar 29, 2021)

Lara,

You fought the good fight.

I've been involved in situations/discussions such as this the before.

I am a soldier for the Catholic Faith.

I didn't jump in because it would have ended badly with a closed thread.

Since Easter is this Sunday I 'll say this:

*Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.*


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## Keesha (Mar 29, 2021)




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## RadishRose (Mar 29, 2021)

digifoss said:


> That is in regard to paying taxes,


That is what I said!


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## RadishRose (Mar 29, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> Since Easter is this Sunday I 'll say this:
> 
> *Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.*


What does Easter being this Sunday have to do with your completely out of context quote?

If you want Father to "forgive them", ask Him. You don't have to post your prayer in writing.


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## Keesha (Mar 30, 2021)

What threads not to get involved in. 
Why do threads that talk about God always turn out nasty with members poking fun of each other or being intentionally mean? I don’t get it.


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## J.B Books (Mar 30, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> What does Easter being this Sunday have to do with your completely out of context quote?
> 
> If you want Father to "forgive them", ask Him. You don't have to post your prayer in writing.


Like I said earlier. I hesitated in getting involved in this thread.

Two topics that never end well on an internet discussion are politics and religion.

So to respond and gracefully bow out of this thread, because once gain because of my Faith, I have been proven to be demographically insignificant on this forum.

My comment was directed to those that have been Catechized, and admittedly that is the minority here.

Those few would know that:

My "out of context" quote is not out of context.

That "prayer" is not a prayer, but a quote.

And it has everything in the world to do with Easter.

I do not have the time, patience, or inclination to educate, explain, and defend the Catholic Faith here.

I am grossly outnumbered here and it will prove to be an exercise in futility. 

With that I bid adieu.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> Like I said earlier. I hesitated in getting involved in this thread.
> 
> Two topics that never end well on an internet discussion are politics and religion.
> 
> ...


I disagree with a lot of what you have said and agree with some of what you have said.  I actually was interested in your first post as a “soldier“ of the Catholic faith and tried to google what you meant but found no reference.  However, in this post you have clarified that expression.  So thanks.

I do not feel that the Catholic faith needs to be defended anywhere,  It is what it is, and some of what the Catholics have done over the years is indefensible.  You will remember I am Catholic.  I don’t think anyone needs to “defend” their beliefs or their faith or lack of either.

I believe discussion of these issues among us, leads to greater understanding for everyone.  Therefore, being in a minority or not, matters not, IMO.  Also, I disagree with your comment that you are demographically insignificantly the forum.  You may feel insignificant but you are not @J.B Books IMO.

I understood your quote and would have understood even if I was not Catholic, I learned this in Southern Baptist Sunday school class as a child.  It was not a prayer, but the words of JC to GOD the Father while he was dying on the cross.  Was JC prayering to God? -nope, he was talking to his Father.

It is amazing that others, who claim to know the Bible, at times claim to be confused By the simplest things.  I, apparently, frustrate many people in these discussions with my view points.  I have frustrated you @J.B Books .  But nothing I say is personal or meant to be personal.

I have never understood why people “announce” they are leaving a thread as if Elvis has left the building.  If I don’t have the patience or time or willingness to engage in a discussion on certain topics, then I don’t. 

In any event, I now understand your position better, so thanks.


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## Keesha (Mar 30, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> Two topics that never end well on an internet discussion are politics and religion.


I didn’t view this topic as religious. It just turned into a religious one.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 30, 2021)

Lara said:


> I'm thinking your post perhaps assumes one is going to live long enough to atone for all their wrongs (covid can take one in a matter of a few hours) and it assumes that the atonement for those wrongs is going to be a quick and sufficient fix....and it assumes there aren't as many wrongs committed as is possible. I believe we do wrongs multiple times everyday and there's no way we can pay the punishment all alone...not enough to be counted worthy to enter God's Kingdom.
> 
> Wrongs can be what we consider little but are wrongs none-the-less. Eating too much, too much money, too much of anything is gluttony and greed for instance...and that's one of the ten commandments. Having an unkind thought, selfishness, lack of self control...on and on. That's where Jesus stepped in, to atone for our wrongs for us.


That is partly why I am leaning toward reincarnation..I agree there is not enough time in one life but with multiple lifetimes or maybe even multidimensional universes it could be. 
Yes, multidimensional universes is also something I find intriguing. This is all so far removed from my Catholic upbringing but a result of years of reading many different sources..


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 30, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> But it’s not what “we” human beings think, it’s what GOD thinks, not JC but God the Father, and we have no insight into his thoughts.  He was not a GOD of love, but an angry God, a God of revenge, the God of the Old Testament.
> 
> A lot of people use God and JC interchangeably as if they are the same, they are not the same.  God rules heaven.  God demanded the sacrifice of his son (Christian belief of course) via the cross.  It was God, I think, that threw down angles from heaven.  It will be God the father, who judges, not JC IMO.


I never thought the OT 'rang true'  And I always thought Jesus came  to clarify life  is all about Love,  not hate and revenge etc
It does get confusing. If one believes in the Trinity there is God, Son, and Holy Spirit and 3 in one. My nun used to light 3 matches to illustrate that bringing them together made one flame.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 30, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I didn’t view this topic as religious. It just turned into a religious one.





Keesha said:


> Absolutely! I’ve literally read hundreds of books and listened to hundreds of tapes, videos, DVDs & podcasts on spirituality and when I actually practice what I’ve learned, my life goes smoothly and I’m blissfully in peace.
> 
> I’ve learned from the best spiritual teachers including Deepak Chopra, Byron Katie, Marianne Williamson, Elkhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer ( almost every book he wrote ) Jack Kornfield, Don Miguel Ruiz, Abraham Hicks, Neal Donald Walsh and others. The list is endless. When I read these types of books, life runs smoother and makes more sense. Life miraculously works.
> 
> ...


Ohhhh I couldn't agree more with you!! Thanks


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 30, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yup, I read the Bible extensively as a child, but not since then.  As the saying goes, when I was a child I believed as a child, but I am an old woman now, a tad wiser and I stopped drinking the kool aide.


Interesting..as Catholics we never memorized the Bible and what I learned was in Church sermons or in school. For me, the Bible 'changed' as I changed. What I could not understand as a child made more sense as I became an adult.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 30, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I didn’t view this topic as religious. It just turned into a religious one.


Is it ok to discuss religion on this board?? I know politics is off-limits but did not think religion was. I hope it is ok. I would even have enjoyed politics as long as people were respectful and if they knew they could not be maybe they could/should not participate?


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## caroln (Mar 30, 2021)

I didn't read all of the posts here so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone's post.  I've heard that if you believe in one (heaven), you have to believe in the other (hell).  But the idea of hell is so scary, I just keep rejecting the idea that it exists.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Is it ok to discuss religion on this board?? I know politics is off-limits but did not think religion was. I hope it is ok. I would even have enjoyed politics as long as people were respectful and if they knew they could not be maybe they could/should not participate?


Religion Is fine to discuss, but some people are not fine with discussing it


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Interesting..as Catholics we never memorized the Bible and what I learned was in Church sermons or in school. For me, the Bible 'changed' as I changed. What I could not understand as a child made more sense as I became an adult.


Yes, I was surprised how little Catholics read the Bible but I was raised southern Baptist and, when you are young, a Bible is superglued to your hand.  It never comes off, never.  I can still feel it there after all these years.


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## Mr. Ed (Mar 30, 2021)

My philosophy is simply wait and see.


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## Lara (Mar 30, 2021)

caroln said:


> I didn't read all of the posts here so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone's post.  I've heard that if you believe in one (heaven), you have to believe in the other (hell).  But the idea of hell is so scary, I just keep rejecting the idea that it exists.


Hi caroln and welcome to the Senior Forums. I bowed out of the thread yesterday because it drifted off-topic but I found your post intriguing. I believe in both Heaven and Hell but I personally have No Fear of the Topic of Hell because I know that I won't be going there.

I deserve to go there, just like everyone, but I'm perfectly at peace with my faith in knowing that my punishment was paid for by Jesus when he suffered for our wrongs which allowed us to be forgiven when we believe. I'll be celebrating that blessed assurance on Easter in just a few days in fact.

You came to what I see as the most docile religious thread I've ever been in with pages and pages of various religious views. Sure there were disagreements since we were created to have "choices" but no one got ugly nor called anyone names. I find it remarkable really. SF is an incredible Forum thanks to @Matrix and @SeaBreeze

Have a Happy Easter

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine
Heir of salvation, purchase of God
Born of His spirit, washed in His blood
Perfect submission, all is at rest
I in my Savior, am happy and blessed
Watching and waiting, looking above
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love


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## Keesha (Mar 30, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Is it ok to discuss religion on this board?? I know politics is off-limits but did not think religion was. I hope it is ok. I would even have enjoyed politics as long as people were respectful and if they knew they could not be maybe they could/should not participate?


Apparently religion is fine to discuss on the site according to the rules and regulations however politics aren’t yet many members start them.
The only reason I even mentioned it was due to J.B. Books post stating how he feels about politics and religion in that they never end well and I agree.


J.B Books said:


> Like I said earlier. I hesitated in getting involved in this thread.
> 
> Two topics that never end well on an internet discussion are politics and religion.


People often have opposing sides which they hang onto and try to prove to the other. Oddly enough there are always two sides to an argument which doesn’t necessarily make a right or a wrong; merely a difference in opinion.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> That is partly why I am leaning toward reincarnation..I agree there is not enough time in one life but with multiple lifetimes or maybe even multidimensional universes it could be.
> Yes, multidimensional universes is also something I find intriguing. This is all so far removed from my Catholic upbringing but a result of years of reading many different sources..


I did some research which I will get into probably tomorrow on this subject, but you don’t have to atone for every little thing


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

I suggest that those who are truely interested in the subject of Eternal Hell google Christian views on Hell, Wikipedia which is extremely interesting and explain various viewpoints.  As I suspected, hell depends on if you are speaking of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, now renamed the Holy Spirit.

I sticking with the Holy Ghost.  Remember I am only speaking about Christians, I know nothing about other religions, and barely know about Christians.  But I did have that Bible in my hands in my early years, and I was required to read it, study it, become one with the Bible.

I was going to refer to what several members had written on the thread, but, that would be just too much work.  One person really nailed it when they said that eternal hell would be the separation from God.  I took this to mean God the Father, who is, in charge and will judge us all.

The site said, to loosely paraphrase, hell is defined by GOD the FATHER‘s judgement for/on unrepenttant sinners.  WOW, just WOW.  Cause I remember all those signs, I saw as a child, held by so called bums in Los Angeles, which said *Repent the End is Near.  *Bible readers.  Impressive.

Apparently today most theologians see hell as the logical consequence of using free will to reject union/belief with God the Father.  God does not force formality which would be incompatible with God’s justice and mercy, known as free will.

It is, apparently, humans that create their own hell, not God the Father.  Humans who refuse to believe, humans who refuse to love God the Father, humans who refuse to repent, humans who refuse to love their God.  Without loving God the Father, without repenting our sins without accepting his mercy, the human is lost.

I believe there is ONE God the Father.  The main dude so to speak.  The God of the Old Testament.  The God all believers believe in regardless of religion.  But, that’s just me.

Believe, repent, accept God the Father and thou are good to go, with God the father, Jesus Christ is a bit different.  As you read, you may understand why suicides were unacceptable.  Suicide, as I understand it, would be a mortal sin against the Holy Ghost which resides inside us.

The status of the Holy Ghost, sins against the Holy Ghost, etc.  are really confusing and complex so not going down that path.  We were made in God’s image, we were given the Holy Ghost, so rejecting life, huge sin, huge.  Although, there was a point where it said any sin could be forgiven.  Read for yourselves if interested, not trying to explain it.

Onward to the hell of Jesus Christ.  Remember what I said earlier, you know, give the Romans what belongs to them, give God want belongs to him, and give JC his due.  Oh, and remember the Holy Ghost.  The trinity.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

I was really interested in the take on the hell of Jesus Christ.  This came from Matthew 25:32-46 and is so personally interesting to me because over the years I have been told, by many believers, that I have secured my place in heaven.  Frankly, I had no clue as to what they meant or how I, such an acknowledged sinner, managed this.

But after reading much of the information on the site I am referring to, as long as I do not kill my self, I repent and accept and love God the Father, and do as Jesus Christ says, I am good to go with all three of the trinity.  Such a relief.  Still, to hedge my bet on this, I will continue to do my best.

Again, loosely paraphrased in most areas.  JC apparently said he will consign to every lasting fire those who failed to aid “the least of his brothers”.  WOW.  So with him, it’s not about repenting, it’s not about your sins, it’s not about what most think it’s about.  It does say somewhere about you will be known by your words and your deeds.  Apparently he is serious about this.

Lots of people should have paid more attention to that,  I am thinking.

*Matthew 25:31-46.  *I tried to copy it as best I could, cause I do not know how to copy and paste. Do not try to tell me how, I’m hopeless.  Anyway, here it goes.

”Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE, for devils and his angles.  For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat.  I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink.  I was a stranger and you did not invite me in.  I needed clothes and you did not clothe me.  I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.  *Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”*

I suspect a lot of so-called self named Christians might be surprised.  .  In any event, my hell on earth was made by my parents and I, and many others, have served their times.  I do not believe in an eternal hell. God the Fathers forgiveness appears to be easy to obtain.

As for the Holy Ghost, I do not know.  If someone succeeds at killing themselves and disrupts God the Father’s plan for them, I believe a path to heaven must still exist if belief exist.

As I read about the eternal fire condemnation of Jesus Christ, it made sense to me.  The whole “you will be known by your words and deeds thing”.  I think of all the harshness people display towards so many others, the lack of compassion, the lack of empathy, the lack of simple human kindness towards the stranger on the street.  And the outright arrogance of some, .

In any event, after my shallow research and after my reading of the various eternal hells, do I believe in eternal hell?  Nope.  . Welcome back to the thread @Lara.  I do like discussions with you.


----------



## mellowyellow (Mar 30, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> Like I said earlier. I hesitated in getting involved in this thread.
> 
> Two topics that never end well on an internet discussion are politics and religion.
> 
> ...


In my experience, Catholic run primary and high schools in Sydney are, without doubt, far and away more caring, more efficient, better managed and generally superior in every way to the state-run school system.  Also Catholic aged care homes are streets ahead of other state and church run homes IMO.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 30, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> In my experience, Catholic run primary and high schools in Sydney are, without doubt, far and away more caring, more efficient, better managed and generally superior in every way to the state-run school system.  Also Catholic aged care homes are streets ahead of other state and church run homes IMO.


The Catholic nursing home I was in, was not good, clean but not good.  But I am in the USA.


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## digifoss (Mar 30, 2021)

My son put his 1st grade son in the local catholic school after Christmas because they were in class room and the public school was still closed    it has been great for him and we have already registered him for 2nd grade in the fall


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## Jim W. (Mar 30, 2021)

caroln said:


> I didn't read all of the posts here so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone's post.  I've heard that if you believe in one (heaven), you have to believe in the other (hell).  But the idea of hell is so scary, I just keep rejecting the idea that it exists.


If there's an afterlife it might look something like this.....


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## caroln (Mar 31, 2021)

Jim W. said:


> If there's an afterlife it might look something like this.....


You won't believe this, but that cat is what I use as an avatar on another forum!  Talk about coincidence.


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## caroln (Mar 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> Hi caroln and welcome to the Senior Forums. I bowed out of the thread yesterday because it drifted off-topic but I found your post intriguing. I believe in both Heaven and Hell but I personally have No Fear of the Topic of Hell because I know that I won't be going there.
> 
> I deserve to go there, just like everyone, but I'm perfectly at peace with my faith in knowing that my punishment was paid for by Jesus when he suffered for our wrongs which allowed us to be forgiven when we believe. I'll be celebrating that blessed assurance on Easter in just a few days in fact.
> 
> ...


I agree that the people on this forum are very respectful of each other's opinions.  What a nice change from most forums!


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## Jim W. (Mar 31, 2021)

caroln said:


> You won't believe this, but that cat is what I use as an avatar on another forum!  Talk about coincidence.



Yes caroln..... such a co-inky-dink.

Reminds me of this commercial I hate......


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## Jim W. (Mar 31, 2021)

caroln said:


> I agree that the people on this forum are very respectful of each other's opinions.  What a nice change from most forums!


I think you'll enjoy it here.

I kind of come and go. 

I'll post for awhile then disappear for awhile.

But it's always very civil.

Especially since they disallowed political commentary.

Nothing will get people to turn on each other faster than politics.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> The Catholic nursing home I was in, was not good, clean but not good.  But I am in the USA.


My husband was in 2 SNFs and from everything I have read and discussed I question if there really any good ones??? Supposedly the 2 my husband was in were among the best in the area; however,  I had to be a constant advocate and it was really a difficult experience. My heart goes out to those who have no advocates...


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 31, 2021)

caroln said:


> I didn't read all of the posts here so I apologize if I'm repeating anyone's post.  I've heard that if you believe in one (heaven), you have to believe in the other (hell).  But the idea of hell is so scary, I just keep rejecting the idea that it exists.


Hi caolin..Interesting..I have never heard that. But then there are so many ways to define and try to picture heaven and/or hell..I still say hell is but not for eternity. I can not accept or believe God would not keep giving chances to redeem oneself no matter how 'long' it takes...


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## Lara (Mar 31, 2021)

Do you mean keep giving them chances after they have died? Just clarifying because God does "keep giving chances to redeem oneself no matter how long it takes"....until death. One can sincerely accept Jesus into their heart on their death bed and be saved from Hell. They would miss out on all the blessings during their lifetime but they wouldn't spend eternity in Hell according to the Bible.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> Do you mean keep giving them chances after they have died? Just clarifying because God does "keep giving chances to redeem oneself no matter how long it takes"....until death. One can sincerely accept Jesus into their heart on their death bed and be saved from Hell. They would miss out on all the blessings during their lifetime but they wouldn't spend eternity in Hell according to the Bible.


Yes after they die to this world ..because I am beginning to believe in reincarnation or perhaps multidimensions or parallel universes. I have a hard time accepting there is this life then only heaven or hell..well perhaps Catholicism still teaches purgatory? 
I understand the death bed conversion, but still,  considering the different experiences and privileges and struggles people have, I have a tough time believing we only get one shot and then judgment.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Yes after they die to this world ..because I am beginning to believe in reincarnation or perhaps multidimensions or parallel universes. I have a hard time accepting there is this life then only heaven or hell..well perhaps Catholicism still teaches purgatory?
> I understand the death bed conversion, but still,  considering the different experiences and privileges and struggles people have, I have a tough time believing we only get one shot and then judgment.


I think purgatory is old school and was a way for the priests and the church to make money.  Just my opinion.  I am not an “active” Catholic, in fact, I was never terribly active although I went regularly to mass.  But have not gone to mass in years, watch it occasionally on tv, not very often.


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## Serenity4321 (Mar 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I think purgatory is old school and was a way for the priests and the church to make money.  Just my opinion.  I am not an “active” Catholic, in fact, I was never terribly active although I went regularly to mass.  But have not gone to mass in years, watch it occasionally on tv, not very often.


Same here...I used to think purgatory made sense when it was explained as also a place for unbaptized babies, but I have long ago given up many beliefs I used to accept as a child in Catholic school
How did they make money off purgatory?? PLEASE don't tell me you could buy someone's soul out of purgatory


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Same here...I used to think purgatory made sense when it was explained as also a place for unbaptized babies, but I have long ago given up many beliefs I used to accept as a child in Catholic school
> How did they make money off purgatory?? PLEASE don't tell me you could buy someone's soul out of purgatory


Yes you do, did you really not want me to tell you?


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## Lara (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> ...I am beginning to believe in reincarnation or perhaps multidimensions or parallel universes. I have a hard time accepting there is this life then only heaven or hell..
> I understand the death bed conversion, but still,  considering the different experiences and privileges and struggles people have, I have a tough time believing we only get one shot and then judgment.


I hear you and get that. But, like you, Christians DO believe we will come back to Earth and live in new bodies here on Earth BUT without pain, no suffering, no evil...in perfect peace. But we can't have that peace on earth if God is going to give second chances to all the unbelievers with baggage who want to bring all that garbage and evil doings with them that they are still trying to work off and atone for on their own. No can do

Christians are willing right now to lay all that baggage down by accepting forgiveness for all of it this very minute offered to all for free through Jesus just by saying yes I accept. I Can Only Imagine what it will be like to live here on earth where there will be no sin, no suffering, no sadness...only joy, peace, love, harmony. I'm not going to miss out on that. But I will miss out on an eternity of Hell.

So, Serenity...it's kind of like reincarnation as we'll have new bodies and a new life...but no work, no pain, no evil...only joy, only love. 
Here's the song "I Can Only Imagine"


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Yes after they die to this world ..because I am beginning to believe in reincarnation or perhaps multidimensions or parallel universes. I have a hard time accepting there is this life then only heaven or hell..well perhaps Catholicism still teaches purgatory?
> I understand the death bed conversion, but still,  considering the different experiences and privileges and struggles people have, I have a tough time believing we only get one shot and then judgment.


My conclusion exactly. With all the different experiences I’ve had I have to believe there are multidimensional and / or parallel universes where time doesn’t exist like it does while humanly incarnated.


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Same here...I used to think purgatory made sense when it was explained as also a place for unbaptized babies, but I have long ago given up many beliefs I used to accept as a child in Catholic school
> How did they make money off purgatory?? PLEASE don't tell me you could buy someone's soul out of purgatory


There’s so many parts I don’t understand about the Catholic religion but when my husband told me this part, I was completely shocked. It sort of goes along with the same belief that one could murder someone but if they confessed their sins, they are  good to go. Just like that.


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Same here...I used to think purgatory made sense when it was explained as also a place for unbaptized babies, but I have long ago given up many beliefs I used to accept as a child in Catholic school
> How did they make money off purgatory?? *PLEASE don't tell me you could buy someone's soul out of purgatory*


It was called the selling of indulgences, wherein a person could buy his/her way out of sins, etc.  The selling of indulgences was one of the promptings that caused The Reformation (Martin Luther)


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell​


I don't believe that I will be reincarnated as a cat, I don't believe that a "creator" is as superstitious as man, I don't believe that I will receive 72 virgins in the afterlife, I don't believe that Santa Claus can fit through my chimney, I do not believe that the money of the filthy rich will "trickle down" into my pockets, I do not believe that a talent scout will discover me and make me famous, I do not believe that blondes have more fun, and I do not believe in an eternal hell.


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## J.B Books (Mar 31, 2021)

*


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## Pepper (Mar 31, 2021)

My goodness @J.B Books a bit of an overreaction?


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> My goodness @J.B Books a bit of an overreaction?


Just a tad. He must have a sore swollen lip now.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> There are soooo many misconceptions, wrong statements, misleading comments here on the Catholic faith it's unbelievable.
> If you don't know, just say so. Please.
> I was trying to stay away and bite my lip but it started to bleed after reading some of these posts.


The OP question is *"Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell"*. Your reaction is _"If you don't know, just say so"._ "If you don't know" what?  Don't know if we believe? You cannot be saying if we don't know whether or not there's an eternal hell, because no one knows. No one. Nobody.


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> There are soooo many misconceptions, wrong statements, misleading comments here on the Catholic faith it's unbelievable.
> If you don't know, just say so. Please.
> I was trying to stay away and bite my lip but it started to bleed after reading some of these posts.


So if you know the answer to the question, perhaps you could enlighten us all. (?)(!)
Then we’d ALL know.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)




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## Jules (Mar 31, 2021)

My 12 year old Catholic friend was apoplectic when I told her I’d never been baptized.  Guess she still would be today.


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## Shalimar (Mar 31, 2021)

Most of the time, I don’t believe in an eternal hell, but have certainly experienced hell on earth. I tend to believe in reincarnation, parallel universes, etc, why not? Sometimes, the child abuse with religious overtones that  I experienced stirs up an irrational fear that a permanent hell exists. I do believe in the eternal power of love and kindness.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

"Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell?"​*Golly! What an easy question. Everyone knows the right answer to that!*


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Pepper said:


> It was called the selling of indulgences, wherein a person could buy his/her way out of sins, etc.  The selling of indulgences was one of the promptings that caused The Reformation (Martin Luther)


Well, I could have have known that, maybe , if I googled it.    People want to be so exact these days.


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## SetWave (Mar 31, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> There are soooo many misconceptions, wrong statements, misleading comments here on the Catholic faith it's unbelievable.
> If you don't know, just say so. Please.
> I was trying to stay away and bite my lip but it started to bleed after reading some of these posts.


All apologies, JB, but I have no use for catholicism.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> I hear you and get that. But, like you, Christians DO believe we will come back to Earth and live in new bodies here on Earth BUT without pain, no suffering, no evil...in perfect peace. But we can't have that peace on earth if God is going to give second chances to all the unbelievers with baggage who want to bring all that garbage and evil doings with them that they are still trying to work off and atone for on their own. No can do
> 
> Christians are willing right now to lay all that baggage down by accepting forgiveness for all of it this very minute offered to all for free through Jesus just by saying yes I accept. I Can Only Imagine what it will be like to live here on earth where there will be no sin, no suffering, no sadness...only joy, peace, love, harmony. I'm not going to miss out on that. But I will miss out on an eternity of Hell.
> 
> ...


Some Christians believe the way you do, I am sure, but not ALL Christians.  I can imagine what it would be to live on earth as well, with no sin.  BORING


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

SetWave said:


> All apologies, JB, but I have no use for catholicism.


Well, it’s a relief then, that you are not Catholic, because that would be silly.


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## J.B Books (Mar 31, 2021)

*


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Verisure said:


> The OP question is *"Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell"*. Your reaction is _"If you don't know, just say so"._ "If you don't know" what?  Don't know if we believe? You cannot be saying if we don't know whether or not there's an eternal hell, because no one knows. No one. Nobody.


Well, hmm, God might know, JC might know, some of the other deities might know.  But humans, nope, we don’t really know so I kind of agree, sort of


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> There were a bunch of bad clergy that wanted to increase the coffers, so they came up with the idea of selling indulgences.
> 
> The problem with priests is that they are human and are sinners  like the rest of us.
> 
> ...


Well thank you kindly for your explanation.
My husband says that his dad had a friend who’s father passed away when he was very young so the son went fishing with my husbands grandfather to support the family. The son had already lit the candles which he PAID for to get his father from purgatory into heaven. The priest walked by and told this boy, who was working extra hard to support his family, said his father was almost out of purgatory. He just needed a few more candles and the boy said “Father, dad is like a rat, if his head will fit through a hole, his butt will squeeze in behind him.”

And that was the end of that so instead of trying to help this unfortunate family, they tried to push for more money.

My husband is younger than me so this wasn’t anywhere near the 1500’s. Just sayin.’


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## Packerjohn (Mar 31, 2021)

I live in hell!  When it takes over 2 hours to get a live voice from the taxation people you know you live in hell!  Can't see them in person because they have locked themselves in.  While waiting on the phone for over 2 hours, they play for you 3 short classical pieces over and over and over and over and over.  Too think that we used to laugh at communist countries.  HA!  I think I'm gona have several strong shots of rum after this "deal" is over.  They want our money ASAP but they sure don't want to see us or help us do our taxes.  My "home sweet home", HELL, Canada!


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## officerripley (Mar 31, 2021)

Keesha said:


> There’s so many parts I don’t understand about the Catholic religion but when my husband told me this part, I was completely shocked. It sort of goes along with the same belief that one could murder someone but if they confessed their sins, they are  good to go. Just like that.


Yeah, I remember asking a very relig. Christian--don't remember whether Catholic or Protestant--about what would happen if a "saved" Christian woman, totally through no fault of her own, was raped and murdered, would she go to Heaven? Christian: Yep. Me: Then what would happen if, after she died, her rapist & murderer converted to Christianity and was "saved." Would he go to Heaven too? Christian: Yep. Me: Well, wouldn't it spoil Heaven for her if she ran into the SOB up there? Christian: Well, no because God would take away her memory of him and what he did to her. Me: But if you take such a huge memory like that away from someone, they're not themselves anymore since our memories make us what and who we are; she wouldn't be her anymore. Christian: [blank stare].           .


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Yeah, I remember asking a very relig. Christian--don't remember whether Catholic or Protestant--about what would happen if a "saved" Christian woman, totally through no fault of her own, was raped and murdered, would she go to Heaven? Christian: Yep. Me: Then what would happen if, after she died, her rapist & murderer converted to Christianity and was "saved." Would he go to Heaven too? Christian: Yep. Me: Well, wouldn't it spoil Heaven for her if she ran into the SOB up there? Christian: Well, no because God would take away her memory of him and what he did to her. Me: But if you take such a huge memory like that away from someone, they're not themselves anymore since our memories make us what and who we are; she wouldn't be her anymore. Christian: [blank stare].           .


How would anyone know whether a saved Christian woman would pass the judgement of God and JC and enter heaven or hell, for that matter.  No one knows and, IMO, it is the ultimate of arrogance to claim to know.

You have to be dead to be judged.  The woman, right before she died could have wounded her rapist, and if he died later, then she would also be a murderer; and she would have no time to repent or even know her of her crime.

We can be believers or not, we can believe in heaven and/or hell, or not.  What we believe does not matter, actually.  We will be judged by a deity or the worms, those are the real choices.  . So which do we all believe in a deity or the worms.  Time will tell.


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## officerripley (Mar 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> We will be judged by a deity or the worms, those are the real choices.  . So which do we all believe in a deity or the worms. Time will tell.


I love this, we will be judged by a deity or the worms.


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## Lara (Mar 31, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Yeah, I remember asking a very relig. Christian--don't remember whether Catholic or Protestant--about what would happen if a "saved" Christian woman, totally through no fault of her own, was raped and murdered, would she go to Heaven? Christian: Yep. Me: Then what would happen if, after she died, her rapist & murderer converted to Christianity and was "saved." Would he go to Heaven too? Christian: Yep. Me: Well, wouldn't it spoil Heaven for her if she ran into the SOB up there? Christian: Well, no because God would take away her memory of him and what he did to her. Me: But if you take such a huge memory like that away from someone, they're not themselves anymore since our memories make us what and who we are; she wouldn't be her anymore. Christian: [blank stare].           .


I'm not Catholic. I have questions for them but I don't ask. I respect the members but not the leaders. I don't think they use the Bible as much as I do but things may have changed. If you had presented your scenario of the rape victim to me you would not have received a "blank stare". Although I'm sure there are many SF members that wish I would exercise blank stares often 

As far as the scenario you presented to "a very relig. Christian", he said to you that God would take the victim's memory away from "her and what he did to her". You changed it to "take such a huge memory away from her so that she's not herself anymore and wouldn't be her anymore".

I wouldn't have second-guessed God by saying he erases memories. Nor would I assume "she ran into her rapist up there". It doesn't say in the Bible that we run into anyone in particular. In fact, it does say something in the Bible, in 2Corinthians 12:2 that there might be three levels of Heaven. No one knows for sure though...only God knows that. What we do know is that there will be perfect peace and harmony. No pain.

As far as what you said about "she wouldn't be her anymore", the Bible is clear that our physical bodies deteriorate after death. But our spiritual bodies live and receive a new body. What that looks like no one knows. I just hope mine is what I had at age 21

God said about us: “I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more” (Hebrews 8:12). What a glorious thought! The Christian need never fear punishment, but can look forward to crowns of reward. So maybe that means we won't remember other's sins either.

https://www.gotquestions.org/levels-heaven.html


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> I'm not Catholic. I have questions for them but I don't ask. I respect the members but not the leaders. I don't think they use the Bible as much as I do but things may have changed. If you had presented your scenario of the rape victim to me you would not have received a "blank stare". Although I'm sure there are many SF members that wish I would exercise blank stares often
> 
> As far as the scenario you presented to "a very relig. Christian", he said to you that God would take the victim's memory away from "her and what he did to her". You changed it to "take such a huge memory away from her so that she's not herself anymore and wouldn't be her anymore".
> 
> ...


I do not know why you keep saying negative things like “I am sure there are many SF members that wish I would exercise blank stares often“.  I think not.  What good would that do since we can’t see you.  Plus a blank stare usually means someone is having a seizure.  

I like to read your point of view, I agree with little of what you say, but, still, I am interested.  If you have questions about the Catholic faith then ask them.  I am sure someone will answer, probably not me, but maybe.  Depends on the question .

Some people have said a few ignorant things to me, and said a few ignorant things about me to me, and on and on and so what.  It’s not like I am going to date anyone or live next door to them or cry into my root beer.  Write what you want, ask what you want, say what you want.  People will answer or not.  It’s a discussion, not a lecture.  Speak out and be heard!

If someone does not want to hear it, then they don’t need to read it.

There will be no pain, I agree with you on that, cause, you know, it’s a well known fact “the dead feel no pain”.  As for peace and harmony, the lion might lay down with the lamb; but only after he’s had a very big dinner, IMO.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2021)

I never believed in eternal hell until I got married.
And divorced.


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## Aneeda72 (Mar 31, 2021)

win231 said:


> I never believed in eternal hell until I got married.
> And divorced.


Oh, gee, I so understand, boy, do I.


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

win231 said:


> I never believed in eternal hell until I got married.
> And divorced.


And divorced. Ok I’m confused.


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## Knight (Mar 31, 2021)

What factual information is there that heaven is possible & hell is to? Is is there verifiable proof either exists?


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## officerripley (Mar 31, 2021)

Knight said:


> What factual information is there that heaven is possible & hell is to? Is is there verifiable proof either exists?


That's just it, isn't it?


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## SetWave (Mar 31, 2021)

Knight said:


> What factual information is there that heaven is possible & hell is to? Is is there verifiable proof either exists?


The Earth is flat . . .


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## Lara (Mar 31, 2021)

Knight said:


> What factual information is there that heaven is possible & hell is to? Is is there verifiable proof either exists?


If our Creator can "move mountains"...create the universe, flora, fauna, man, oceans, etc...he can certainly whip up a heaven and hell. Nothing is out of the question. The only proof I know of is my own son's near death experience* at age 2 that he shared at age 4 and has similarities with others who have had near death experiences. But aside from that there is this from the Bible:  https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html

If you research Google it gets complicated and all guessing. You'll find all sorts of theories and "findings" where some scientists believe there is another world within the earth that contains "aliens". Others say the center of the earth is hot and meets the description of the "Lake of fire" that the Bible mentions. There are "Hollow Earth" theorists. Some say that there is a small hole at the North Pole that leads to this advanced alien civilization. No I'm not kidding lol. The Bible suggests that Hell is in the center of the Earth.

* I shared my 2 yr old son's near death experience in one of the threads not too long ago but don't remember the title of the thread.


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## Mr. Ed (Mar 31, 2021)

The way I feel about and hell nowadays is I don't anticipate either one to a great degree. I don't know what happens after I die, perhaps I am not meant to know until I die? Speculation creates a nice round of discussion where anybody can comment without concern of being right or wrong, its only speculation. 

On that note, death and dying are as important as life and living. I don't know beyond other people say death or dying, my theory if I had one about the afterlife will come as it arrives. No sooner. I'm ok with that. 

I don't try to be good enough to go to heaven or whatever. Heaven seems to be choice destination for the living. What if heaven is a place or state being was designed by you and how you expect heaven will be. Seldom do people realize the degree of power everyone has within their minds and imagination. Joy and happiness are natural healers for the body and soul, somehow we get sidetrack by what seems important at the time. Stress, anything to the excess is harmful, but we keep it up until illness slows us down to start over again. 

We heal and that's a miracle of life.


----------



## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

Lara said:


> If our Creator can "move mountains"...create the universe, flora, fauna, man, oceans, etc...he can certainly whip up a heaven and hell. Nothing is out of the question. The only proof I know of is my own son's near death experience at age 2 that he shared at age 4 and has similarities with others who have had near death experiences. But aside from that there is this from the Bible:  https://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
> 
> If you research Google it gets complicated and all guessing. You'll find all sorts of theories and "findings" where some scientists believe there is another world within the earth that contains "aliens". Others say the center of the earth is hot and meets the description of the "Lake of fire" that the Bible mentions. There are "Hollow Earth" theorists. Some say that there is a small hole at the North Pole that leads to this advanced alien civilization. No I'm not kidding lol. The Bible suggests that Hell is in the center of the Earth.


Wait a minute! What? So when we die, if we’ve been really bad we go directly to the centre of the earth?
LMAO! Seriously? 
note: no disrespect. I just sounds funny.


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## Keesha (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> The way I feel about and hell nowadays is I don't anticipate either one to a great degree. I don't know what happens after I die, perhaps I am not meant to know until I die? Speculation creates a nice round of discussion where anybody can comment without concern of being right or wrong, its only speculation.
> 
> On that note, death and dying are as important as life and living. I don't know beyond other people say death or dying, my theory if I had one about the afterlife will come as it arrives. No sooner. I'm ok with that.
> 
> ...


That’s a great post.


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## win231 (Mar 31, 2021)

Keesha said:


> And divorced. Ok I’m confused.


Well, the divorce was almost as bad as the marriage......


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## Linda (Mar 31, 2021)

No, I don't believe in eternal hell fire.  I think that was the question.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, hmm, God might know, JC might know, some of the other deities might know.  But humans, nope, we don’t really know so I kind of agree, sort of


Yes. I see what you mean. It's exactly like that other thing but different.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

SetWave said:


> All apologies, JB, but I have no use for catholicism.


I am a bona-fide, legally legitimate, Catholic renouncer and I have documents signed by both the bishop and the city mayor (required certification) to prove it. That’s how little use I have for catholicism.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Well thank you kindly for your explanation.
> My husband says that his dad had a friend who’s father passed away when he was very young so the son went fishing with my husbands grandfather to support the family. The son had already lit the candles which he PAID for to get his father from purgatory into heaven. The priest walked by and told this boy, who was working extra hard to support his family, said his father was almost out of purgatory. He just needed a few more candles and the boy said “Father, dad is like a rat, if his head will fit through a hole, his butt will squeeze in behind him.”
> 
> And that was the end of that so instead of trying to help this unfortunate family, they tried to push for more money.
> ...


That is a story that everyone is familiar with but few are willing to acknowledge. Money, yes ... or spreading one's legs, particularly Catholic children. But now it is time for me to recite 15 _Our Fathers_, 10 _Hail Marys_, and 5 _Glory Bes_ and then for me to be silent.


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## Verisure (Mar 31, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I love this, we will be judged by a deity or the worms.


The Reverend Archbishop of maggots.


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Yes. I see what you mean. It's exactly like that other thing but different


But wasn’t Jesus Christ a human just like the rest of us and didn’t he say that we could do as much as he could and more?


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

J.B. Books said ( quoted )
OK tell you what.
Why don't you all start talking about the Spanish Inquisition? Or pedophile priests, or gay priests, corrupt priests,
priests with addictions.
If you ever took tour of Hell you would find many priests, bishops, and cardinals.

there is a saying the road to Hell is paved by many well intentioned bishops.

( end quote )

Well this was one of the biggest deceiving parts about this particular religion. The fact that Catholic priests, bishops and cardinals had to stay faithful to their church , with a promise of celibacy , made it extraordinarily difficult for them to be human , which unfortunately caused all kinds of problems.

These people had a lot of power and influence over others and took advantage of that. In fact , that is the very place pedophiles and homosexuals would flee to. The church protected them and kept them safe.

When I was really young, my family were really close friends to a family whose father volunteered at a church as a Sunday school teacher. It just happened to be that he had a thing for younger children. Coincidence? I think not. He knew he was not only trusted in his position , but safe.

So yes, priests, cardinals and bishops were regular people who , not only had the ability to become corrupt, but also had the power, the trust and the protection of the church.

Trying to create humans who have no ****** urges and giving them power over others , created all kinds of corruption. I completely agree with you there.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

win231 said:


> Well, the divorce was almost as bad as the marriage......


My daughters husband‘s ex wife made their life a living hell.  The police were out to their house, because of the ex wife, more than when he had been married to her.  Apparently she could not understand he was remarried.  When the ex wife finally remarried, things got a little calmer, but not much.  Once the ex wife and her new husband moved out of state, my daughter could at least hang up the phone on her.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> But wasn’t Jesus Christ a human just like the rest of us and didn’t he say that we could do as much as he could and more?


Hmmmmm, Jesus "a human"? Whew, you ask some really difficult questions. I don't know. And as far as being able to do everything he did, I'm not sure. Try as I may I haven't yet succeeded in walking on water in all of my 74 years on this earth. I can skip across water if I get a really good running start, but once I slow down to a "walk" I lose buoyancy. Maybe I need to light a few more candles and donate an additional 20% of my monthly pension checks?


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Hmmmmm, Jesus "a human"? Whew, you ask some really difficult questions. I don't know. And as far as being able to do everything he did, I'm not sure. Try as I may I haven't yet succeeded in walking on water in all of my 74 years on this earth. I can skip across water if I get a really good running start, but once I slow down to a "walk" I lose buoyancy. Maybe I need to light a few more candles and donate an additional 20% of my monthly pension checks?


Maybe he could change molecular structure or maybe these stories are fabricated. I have no idea. Yes. I agree, I ask some tough questions but hey..... lighting more candles couldn’t hurt any. Lol.

I’m going to get myself in trouble with my silliness.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Hmmmmm, Jesus "a human"? Whew, you ask some really difficult questions. I don't know. And as far as being able to do everything he did, I'm not sure. Try as I may I haven't yet succeeded in walking on water in all of my 74 years on this earth. I can skip across water if I get a really good running start, but once I slow down to a "walk" I lose buoyancy. Maybe I need to light a few more candles and donate an additional 20% of my monthly pension checks?


Yes, seriously, Jesus was human.  Anyone can walk on water, I walk on water every time it rains.  Are you in a wheelchair?  If so you can roll on water.  But, yup, go ahead donate more, light more candles, see if it will help.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> ......
> Well this was one of the biggest deceiving parts about this particular religion. The fact that Catholic priests, bishops and cardinals had to stay faithful to their church , with a promise of celibacy , made it extraordinarily difficult for them to be human , which unfortunately caused all kinds of problems.
> 
> These people had a lot of power and influence over others and took advantage of that. In fact , that is the very place pedophiles and homosexuals would flee to. The church protected them and kept them safe.
> ...


I know that you are not saying all Catholics are the "P" word but I can contribute some support to your story with three personal stories of my own:

* When I was in my early 20's I met an ex-priest at the barbershop in Albuquerque. He told me he had left the Church of his own free will because the Catholic Church was not interested in helping the poor. I thought it was interesting and so I agreed to his invitation to his apartment for coffee later that day. When I arrived he was decked out in his full priestly garb and his language was the foulest I'd ever heard in my life. I wasn't sure what to do or say but when he tried to put his hands on me I stood up and left.

* During the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, we had thousands of refugees arriving here in Sweden. At the time, I was employed in a support capacity of the office of immigration. My boss was an ex-Catholic priest from Chicago. He had been defrocked of his priesthood but I don't think he ever told me why. I figured it out eventually. He was hot to trot for teenage boys and young men (not children anyway) and he used his position to grant special treatment for ****** "favours".

* Some years after that I met an Englishman who was here for a couple of years until he absconded with his employer's payroll and left the country. He was raised in the Anglican Church but had converted to Catholocism for some really flimsy reason that lacked any logic. When I met him he invited me up to his flat one day and when I arrived he had ooops! "accidentally" left a pornographic magazine depicting nude boys on the table. An obvious hint that was meant to entice me.


No, I'm not saying that all Catholic priests or Catholic converts are pedo-bent but it is noteworthy that so many do gravitate in that direction.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Maybe he could change molecular structure or maybe these stories are fabricated. I have no idea. Yes. I agree, I ask some tough questions but hey..... lighting more candles couldn’t hurt any. Lol.
> 
> I’m going to get myself in trouble with my silliness.


We'll go down together, I'm sure! Eternal hell?


----------



## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes, seriously, Jesus was human.  Anyone can walk on water, I walk on water every time it rains.  Are you in a wheelchair?  If so you can roll on water.  But, yup, go ahead donate more, light more candles, see if it will help.


Not everyone agrees that Jesus was human. I think he was, personally, but others get befuddled by his mother's virginity. According to the scriptures, his conception was more akin to a _"force majeure"._


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## J.B Books (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I know that you are not saying all Catholics are the "P" word but I can contribute some support to your story with three personal stories of my own:
> 
> * When I was in my early 20's I met an ex-priest at the barbershop in Albuquerque. He told me he had left the Church of his own free will because the Catholic Church was not interested in helping the poor. I thought it was interesting and so I agreed to his invitation to his apartment for coffee later that day. When I arrived he was decked out in his full priestly garb and his language was the foulest I'd ever heard in my life. I wasn't sure what to do or say but when he tried to put his hands on me I stood up and left.
> 
> ...


I would bet that if this post and others in this thread were about the Jewish Faith it would be labeled anti-Semitic.
If theses same posts were about the Muslim faith it would be anti Muslim or racist.
If these same posts were about the AME Baptist Church they would be racist.

But since Catholics are to blame for everything that is wrong in the world these days it's not only allowed and fair game, but encouraged on this forum.

Play Ball!


----------



## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> I would bet that if this post and others in this thread were about the Jewish Faith it would be labeled anti-Semitic.
> If theses same posts were about the Muslim faith it would be anti Muslim or racist.
> If these same posts were about the AME Baptist Church they would be racist.
> 
> ...



You're probably right about the first part but it would be really helpful if you can quote chapter and verse on the _"Catholics are to blame for everything that is wrong in the world"_ because I never said it. I actually included an introduction and a "final word" dedicated to the contrary.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Sunny said:


> .....   Who are the "scientists" who have come up with this "theory?"  I have a feeling they are a bunch of high school kids, or college freshmen, who have read the Cliff Notes version of Jules Verne's "Journey to the Center of the Earth." ...


Don't scoff! Just remember that they knew that Paul McCartney was dead long before anyone else did.


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## J.B Books (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> You're probably right about the first part but it would be really helpful if you can quote chapter and verse on the _"Catholics are to blame for everything that is wrong in the world"_ because I never said it. I actually included an introduction and a "final word" dedicated to the contrary.


I never said that you said that. Don't you recognize sarcasm when you read it?


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> I never said that you said that. Don't you recognize sarcasm when you read it?


That's good. You seemed so angry a couple of pages ago so I didn't recognize the sarcasm. I'll be on the lookout from now on.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I know that you are not saying all Catholics are the "P" word but I can contribute some support to your story with three personal stories of my own:
> 
> * When I was in my early 20's I met an ex-priest at the barbershop in Albuquerque. He told me he had left the Church of his own free will because the Catholic Church was not interested in helping the poor. I thought it was interesting and so I agreed to his invitation to his apartment for coffee later that day. When I arrived he was decked out in his full priestly garb and his language was the foulest I'd ever heard in my life. I wasn't sure what to do or say but when he tried to put his hands on me I stood up and left.
> 
> ...


As do teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on.  Molesters get jobs were the children are.  Has nothing to do with religion, and molesters are protected by those they work for because of possible law suits.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Not everyone agrees that Jesus was human. I think he was, personally, but others get befuddled by his mother's virginity. According to the scriptures, his conception was more akin to a _"force majeure"._


His mother was human, it says in the Bible he was human, he died like a human, -a rose by any other name.  Oh, forgot to add, so edited, there are virgin births all over the world all the time.  Not to be crass, but all you need is semen in a cup, a syringe (no needle ), and stick the syringe where it goes.

Virgin still?  Yup.  Baby possible?  Yup.  No befuddlement, none at all.  There are also other ways where the syringe is not needed, just think about it.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

J.B Books said:


> I would bet that if this post and others in this thread were about the Jewish Faith it would be labeled anti-Semitic.
> If theses same posts were about the Muslim faith it would be anti Muslim or racist.
> If these same posts were about the AME Baptist Church they would be racist.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I am sure the AME Baptist Church is color blind, the Baptist’s will take anyone.


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Oh no. There couldn’t have been dinosaurs down in that volcanic crater because according to christians dinosaurs don’t exist, even though there’s clear evidence like dinosaur bones and dinosaurs prints in the earth.

Oddly enough some of them believe in dragons since the dragon is named in the Bible. Now I completely understand that believing in God is a matter of using blind faith but this goes beyond that. It’s like having blinders on with certain parts of history . I wonder what happens when children go home to do projects about dinosaurs.

Important note: I’m not anti religion. Some of the most beautiful people I’ve known and currently know are very religious. There are just parts that  don’t add up, like evolution for one.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> As do teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on.  Molesters get jobs were the children are.  Has nothing to do with religion, and molesters are protected by those they work for because of possible law suits.


I haven't met any _teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on_ who were child molesters. I can only go by personal experience. I have had _teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on_ but none of them were child molesters to my knowledge.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

I was going to reply to a post by Sunny, I think it was Sunny, but it disappeared as if by magic or divine intervention .  Anyhow, the Romans thought Hades was in the center of the earth or somewhere down there anyway and there were passages you could take, if you could get past the hell hounds, to get there.  The Christians did not invent Hades or Hell, IMO.  Hell was around before the Roman as well, I think.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I haven't met any _teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on_ who were child molesters. I can only go by personal experience. I have had _teachers, scout leaders, summer camp workers, preachers, and on and on and on_ but none of them were child molesters to my knowledge.


Google how bankrupt the Boys Scouts of America are because of the lawsuits against them due to the boys that were molested.  Same applies to any profession.  I was kidnapped and raped by a local handman who worked on everyone’s houses in the neighborhood.  He lived with his mother, raised rabbits for food, and was trusted by the community.  No one knew this guy would rape a 7 year old, but he did.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> His mother was human, it says in the Bible he was human, he died like a human, -a rose by any other name.  Oh, forgot to add, so edited, there are virgin births all over the world all the time.  Not to be crass, but all you need is semen in a cup, a syringe (no needle ), and stick the syringe where it goes.


We know that girls _lose their virginity_ from horseback riding (for example) but it doesn't make them pregnant. So I am not buying the biblical fairytale.  Jews (they were Jews you know) regard ****** intercourse as a wonderful event. They weren't (still aren't) prudish as Christians are.  The story about Maria being a virgin does not incorporate any artificial insemination methods in the narrative nor would there be anything admirable in it. You and I know what they meant.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Google how bankrupt the Boys Scouts of America are because of the lawsuits against them due to the boys that were molested.  Same applies to any profession.  I was kidnapped and raped by a local handman who worked on everyone’s houses in the neighborhood.  He lived with his mother, raised rabbits for food, and was trusted by the community.  No one knew this guy would rape a 7 year old, but he did.


This is disturbing news. I'm a sensitive guy and I wish you hadn't told me that.


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## Lara (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> His mother was human, it says in the Bible he was human, he died like a human, -a rose by any other name.  Oh, forgot to add, so edited, there are virgin births all over the world all the time.  Not to be crass, but all you need is semen in a cup, a syringe (no needle ), and stick the syringe where it goes.
> 
> Virgin still?  Yup.  Baby possible?  Yup.  No befuddlement, none at all.  There are also other ways where the syringe is not needed, just think about it.


I'm pretty sure they didn't do in-vitro fertilization back in 4BC when Jesus was born


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 1, 2021)

Jules said:


> My 12 year old Catholic friend was apoplectic when I told her I’d never been baptized.  Guess she still would be today.


I guess maybe she was in Catholic school? LOL when I was in elementary Catholic school I decided to run around the neighborhood and help 'save' people by telling them if they did not believe in God they were going to hell.  My parents were not too happy ..neigher were my meighbors


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Where my husband was born and raised was near a Christian orphanage. He has all kinds of stories of abuse these kids would put up with. Most of them were scared to tell a soul. Then one day the entire thing was busted and all kinds of religious clergyman were arrested.

I feel especially sorry for children who not only didn’t have parents to care for them but were left in the care of people who abused them.

For many men to confide these secrets was brutal . Many would rather commit suicide than confess what really happened to them. Years ago Oprah had a show on specifically for males who had been sexually abused as boys and it was heart breaking. Many of them cried for the first time while sharing.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Anyway here is some info I found on the subject of heaven , hell and purgatory.


In traditional Christian doctrine, hell was conceived as a place, generally beneath the earth, where the wicked would be punished for eternity. There would be both psychological torment – at our knowing we had lost the opportunity for salvation – and physical ones inflicted by the Devil and his demons. There were gnawing worms and unquenchable fires. No escape from hell or mitigation of eternal torment was possible.

God would laugh at the sufferings of the damned, said the English puritan Richard Baxter. “Is it not a terrible thing,” he asked, “to a wretched soul, when it shall lie roaring perpetually … in the flames of Hell, and the God of mercy himself shall laugh at them?”

The judgement

The decision as to whether we went to heaven or hell was made by God at the time of our deaths. (The general judgement of all the resurrected dead on the final Day of Judgement merely confirmed God’s previous one.) As the greatest Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas rather elegantly put it, “the soul will remain perpetually in whatever last end it is found to have set for itself at the time of death, desiring that state as the most suitable, whether it is good or evil”.

Still, Christianity has never quite worked out whether heaven or hell is the consequence of righteous or wicked lives, or whether God is completely arbitrary in his decision making about our final destination.
The Australian Christian Lobby, however, follows the conservative Protestant tradition: so infected are we with the original sin of Adam and Eve, we are all doomed to hell from the moment of our birth and only Jesus can save us from it.

Purgatory

Amidst the gloom, there was one bright spot in the traditional Christian doctrine of hell. Our punishment there would be proportionate to our sins just as our rewards in heaven would be proportionate to our virtues.
This sense of proportionality led around the year 1000 CE to the invention of another place between heaven and hell – a place of purification of our sins. It arose from the recognition that while most of us were not sufficiently meritorious to deserve heaven instantly after death, most of us were also not sufficiently wicked to deserve eternal punishment.

ikimedia Commons
Purgatory was the place where those who were judged worthy of heaven eventually were purged, purified and punished for their sins before going on to their heavenly reward.
Purgatory thus became the default destination after death. Divine justice and mercy were better served by a place where souls, who, like most of us, were not really all that good at being really bad, could be both punished and perfected. Hell then was reserved only for the most incorrigible.
Even so, Purgatory was no holiday resort. The inhabitants were purified by fire. The heat was at times so intense, Dante tells us in his Purgatory, that “I could have flung myself … for coolness, in a vat of boiling glass.”

Purgatory purged

The Protestant reformers of the 16th century hated the idea of Purgatory and threw it out. They saw it as the root cause of corruption within the Church as people paid money on earth to the Church to try to lessen their time there.

Protestant Christianity therefore returned to the harsh either/or of heaven or hell, determined by God at the time of death (or birth). Humanity was again classified into only two classes – the saved and the damned.
Some Protestants from the 17th to 19th centuries attempted to mitigate this harsh idea of hell. Some argued that, after a period of time in hell, all souls would eventually be saved. Others suggested that souls would be annihilated after having done their time of punishment in hell.

By the 20th century, liberal Christians, Protestant and Catholic, were finding it difficult to square away belief in a God of love with the doctrine of eternal torments in the fires of hell. For them, “hell” has been rethought as a state (but no longer a place) of life after death in which we freely choose to stay alienated from God and from which we can eventually be saved if we so wish.

Today’s conservative Christians, however, remain unmoved by the possibility of eventual salvation from hell for everyone. The doctrine of eternal torments in hell has stayed on their theological agenda.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 1, 2021)

I just want to say* THANK YOU *to everyone who has participated and is participating.
 I wish I could respond to every single post since there are so many fascinating replies and beliefs...
I respect them all even if I do not agree with them all


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## dobielvr (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Where my husband was born and raised was near a Christian orphanage. He has all kinds of stories of abuse these kids would put up with. Most of them were scared to tell a soul. Then one day the entire thing was busted and all kinds of religious clergyman were arrested.
> 
> I feel especially sorry for children who not only didn’t have parents to care for them but were left in the care of people who abused them.
> 
> For many men to confide these secrets was brutal . Many would rather commit suicide than confess what really happened to them. Years ago Oprah had a show on specifically for males who had been sexually abused as boys and it was heart breaking. Many of them cried for the first time while sharing.


I saw that episode.
The men could hardly tell their stories without crying.  It was hard to watch..

I have a hard time looking at priests the same way nowadays.  I not a very religious person to begin with.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> I saw that episode.
> The men could hardly tell their stories without crying.  It was hard to watch..
> 
> I have a hard time looking at priests the same way nowadays.  I not a very religious person to begin with.


It was REALLY hard to watch. I cried with them. 
It was one show I’ll never forget as it left an imprint on my heart.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> We know that girls _lose their virginity_ from horseback riding (for example) but it doesn't make them pregnant. So I am not buying the biblical fairytale.  Jews (they were Jews you know) regard ****** intercourse as a wonderful event. They weren't (still aren't) prudish as Christians are.  The story about Maria being a virgin does not incorporate any artificial insemination methods in the narrative nor would there be anything admirable in it. You and I know what they meant.


Yes I know what they meant.  *Girls do not lose their virginity from horseback riding *unless you are suggesting something strange.  Girls can lose their hymen in many different ways, riding horses is one of them.  Losing your hymen does not mean you are no longer a virgin.

Semen is necessary for pregnancy, ****** intercourse is not necessary for pregnancy.  Since girls who became pregnant, out of wedlock, were stoned to death I am sure there are all kinds of stories about how pregnancy was achieved, without sex, throughout the ages.  

All those teenage girls who claimed they never had sex, but ended up pregnant-possible and probably true.  Not spelling it out here but when I was 19 a doctor explained the facts of life to me since my mother hadn’t.

As for Mary, how she became pregnant is not important.  Her son is recognized as the Son of God by millions.  Much like how the male child of a King sometimes died, and another male child substituted. The child grows up to be the Prince, and then the King.  It is not who you are at your birth, it’s who you are throughout life.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> I'm pretty sure they didn't do in-vitro fertilization back in 4BC when Jesus was born


I did not use in-vitro fertilization as an example.  Do I really need to explain in detail how a girl/woman can get pregnant without any type of aide or penetration by the male?  I would think by this time, at our ages, everyone would know this .  Lord love a duck, it’s not hard to figure it out.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> This is disturbing news. I'm a sensitive guy and I wish you hadn't told me that.


Well it’s not like the thing with the Boy Scouts hasn't been all over the news for years


----------



## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I guess maybe she was in Catholic school? LOL when I was in elementary Catholic school I decided to run around the neighborhood and help 'save' people by telling them if they did not believe in God they were going to hell.  My parents were not too happy ..neigher were my meighbors


If I were asked what I consider the worst atrocity committed by Christians I would probably say it is the notion of Christian missionary work.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> If I were asked what I consider the worst atrocity committed by Christians I would probably say it is the notion of Christian missionary work.


I would agree it was an atrocity, still is, but there were worst things.


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I guess maybe she was in Catholic school? LOL when I was in elementary Catholic school I decided to run around the neighborhood and help 'save' people by telling them if they did not believe in God they were going to hell.  My parents were not too happy ..neigher were my meighbors


Haha. How did I miss this? 
Some adults still do this.
I’m ok with it. I don’t even really mind those who come door to door. Jehovah Witnesses? They are mighty persistent but respectful and friendly as ever. I’ve always been respectful and kind back.

Our last tax accountant suddenly one Christmas decided to become a Jehovah. She moved halfway across the country to do it too. Apparently she’s really committed . As long as she’s happy, I’m happy for her.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Yes I know what they meant.  *Girls do not lose their virginity from horseback riding *unless you are suggesting something strange.  Girls can lose their hymen in many different ways, riding horses is one of them.  Losing your hymen does not mean you are no longer a virgin.
> 
> Semen is necessary for pregnancy, ****** intercourse is not necessary for pregnancy.  Since girls who became pregnant, out of wedlock, were stoned to death I am sure there are all kinds of stories about how pregnancy was achieved, without sex, throughout the ages.
> 
> ...


You are now entering the realm of culture. Do you see the condition of the hymen as being the one-stop definition of virginity and do the various cultures in question all agree with you?


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

... entering the realm of what?
Isn’t this getting way off topic now?


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I would agree it was an atrocity, still is, but there were worst things.


Worse things in life or worse things committed by Christians? Still today.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> ... entering the realm of what?
> Isn’t this getting way off topic now?


redundant reply


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> ... entering the realm of what?
> Isn’t this getting way off topic now?


That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?


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## Pepper (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?


Her name is Miriam, not Maria.  Sorry to be picky.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Her name is Miriam, not Maria.  Sorry to be picky.


In your language, perhaps, in mine her name is Maria.


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## Pepper (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> In your language, perhaps, in mine her name is Maria.


In her own language, not mine, she is Miriam.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Pepper said:


> In her own language, not mine, she is Miriam.


Maybe even מרים


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Here it’s Mary.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Here it’s Mary.


Yes.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Worse things in life or worse things committed by Christians? Still today.


Both


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?


I don’t know.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?


They did not lie about it, they really believed it was true.  Remember woman were extremely controlled in this time period, chattels barely above slaves.  It would not occur to anyone that a woman would risk death by stoning to have a baby, or have the intelligence to “make up” a story.

After all the Church considered Mary M. a whore until 2016.

The Bible says, to badly paraphrase, that the Holy Ghost, hmm, filled or entered, can’t remember the wording, Mary and made her pregnant.  There are many ways to “enter” and make a woman pregnant.  Assuming that early man did not know other ways might be silly.

Remember we are not talking about Christians, these people were Jewish.  As to the significant, Mary wanted to stay alive.  Joseph wanted to marry her.  True love.  Do I believe the Holy Ghost. made Mary pg?  Yup.  God walked the earth as a man.  JC was a man.  The Holy Ghost could have been a man, or a god or like JC, a combination of both.  I have drunk the kool aide .

In any event, yes, we are way off the topic of the thread.  But this stuff is really interesting and the OP does not mind or she would have said something.


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## Lara (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?


Verisure, you ask "Why do Christians lie" that Mary was a virgin? Catholics have lots of questions. I'm not Catholic. I don't debate with Catholics as it would be fruitless since their minds are made up. I'm a Bible-believer and will post Biblical answers to their questions for them. Here's how the Bible answers that:
Click on : https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> Why do Christians lie about the Virgin Mary? Catholics have lots of questions. Their answers are in the Bible. I'm not Catholic. I don't debate with Catholics as their minds are made up. I'm a Bible-believing Christian and will answer questions when they ask by telling them how the Bible answers their questions. Here's how the Bible answers that:
> Click on : https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html


Are you Southern Baptist ?  Say it is not so, they are so strict.  Many the time us kids were set in a basement in separate rooms to pray and read the Bible and wish we could get out of the
 basement.  Another thing that scared me for life.  Can’t stand basements.

I‘ve said before and am saying again, this is not a debate.  This is a discussion.  A lot of people on the thread are not Catholic.  It seems you have no opinins of your own, and simply own the stories in The Bible. Which is fine, a bit odd to me, but fine.

There is a lot about the Catholic Church I don’t like.  But there are a lot of things about other churches I don’t like.  Do you go to revivals?  Do they still have them in NC?  My grandmother was a revival champion, I loved revivals as a child.  Grandmother was a Wright, as in the Wright Brothers.  She was born in South Carolina.  She was a Bible toting believing in the Bible Christian and glued my first white Bible into my hand.

I have passed that white Bible, which I had my entire life, a couple years ago to my granddaughter.  She has never read a Bible.  Figured she might give it a go.  . But she is LDS so I doubt she will.  They have their own Bible.  Cousins are Jehovah Witness and Southern Baptist, nephew and family are Jewish.  We give all religions a shot at us .  We have discussions, not debates.  

So is it just Catholics you don’t talk to or other religions as well?  Just curious.  In any event, as I said I think the Bible is a history book.  God did not write it.


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## Lara (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda, I'm not a Southern Baptist. I'm purely a Bible believer. I don't belong to any particular denomination.
And I hardly call it a discussion when Bible believers are called liars by Verisure in post 210.


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

Verisure said:


> That's what I am trying to say. What we consider virginity today in the west is irrelevant to what was considered virginity in the holy land way back then. The fact that Christians maintained that Maria was a virgin must have had some profound significance for them. Why else would they lie about it/believe in it?





Keesha said:


> I don’t know.


Just because I don’t know the answer to this question doesn’t mean I think or thought anyone was lying. I definitely looked at this topic as a discussion. 

I generally discussed things I don’t understand about religion in general . It wasn’t meant to offend anyone. I’m not apologizing because I didn’t call anyone a liar or argue any points. 
I’m ok with anyone believing whatever they want.


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## timoc (Apr 1, 2021)

Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell?​
Hand on heart I can't answer that question, I never got to live with a mother-in-law.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 1, 2021)

Hell no, we won’t go. Hell no, we won’t go...

Eternally yours
Mr. Ed


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## officerripley (Apr 1, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Here it’s Mary.


Unless you're talking to extremely fundamentalist/evangelical Christians; then it always seems to be either "Jesus's mother" or "Joseph's wife" since they seem to be big on women being only put here to be "good" (i.e., obedient) wives and mothers. Oh, and daughters too.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 1, 2021)

I have changed my ways


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## Keesha (Apr 1, 2021)

officerripley said:


> Unless you're talking to extremely fundamentalist/evangelical Christians; then it always seems to be either "Jesus's mother" or "Joseph's wife" since they seem to be big on women being only put here to be "good" (i.e., obedient) wives and mothers. Oh, and daughters too.


You raise a good point ; the  time the Bible was written. A lot of things have changed. Most women aren’t owned any more however some still are. I’m so grateful to be living where we do. Obedient I don’t do!


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## mrstime (Apr 1, 2021)

I don't believe in an after life. This is not hell either, this life is what you make of it, it is your choice to be happy or miserable! I choose to be happy!


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> They did not lie about it, they really believed it was true.


Somebody lied. It wasn't a spontaneous blanket of hoax from heaven that descended upon humanity. The lie was earth-born.


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## Verisure (Apr 1, 2021)

Lara said:


> Why do Christians lie about the Virgin Mary? Catholics have lots of questions. I'm not Catholic. I don't debate with Catholics as it would be fruitless since their minds are made up. I'm a Bible-believer and will post Biblical answers to their questions for them. Here's how the Bible answers that:
> Click on : https://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html


From the link, this paraphrase:

*"Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus ….. speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.” ….. Mary remained a virgin until the Savior’s birth, but later Joseph and Mary had several children together."*

But there is no explanation as to *why* the lie was borne and *why* it was/is accepted. Questioning superstition is anti-faith. FAITH: _"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."_


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Verisure said:


> From the link, this paraphrase:
> 
> *"Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus ….. speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.” ….. Mary remained a virgin until the Savior’s birth, but later Joseph and Mary had several children together."*
> 
> But there is no explanation as to *why* the lie was borne and *why* it was/is accepted. Questioning superstition is anti-faith. FAITH: _"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."_


I _disagree strongly, very strongly._  God the Father gave us freedom of choice, the right TO CHOOSE what we will believe or not believe.  Faith is not blind.  Define no union with her.  I thought we agreed the Bible is a historical document written by old men and, yet, you present your case with paraphrasing from the scriptures.  

Faith is questioning, making as informed a decision as possible, and still believing, despite evidence to the contrary, in whatever you believe in.  Most people can not be swayed.  As @Lara said minds are made up.

In modern times many people have FAITH, BELIEF, that the virus is not dangerous, the facts about it are wrong, the scientists incorrect, and the doctors paid off.  They follow their chosen leader into the valley of death and many have died.  The graveyards are full of non-believers.


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I have changed my ways





Verisure said:


> From the link, this paraphrase:
> 
> *"Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus ….. speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.” ….. Mary remained a virgin until the Savior’s birth, but later Joseph and Mary had several children together."*
> 
> But there is no explanation as to *why* the lie was borne and *why* it was/is accepted. Questioning superstition is anti-faith. FAITH: _"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."_


*Mr. Ed*...do tell...what, when, why?

*Verisure.*..paraphrasing is a red flag but I hear you saying that the Bible says Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, you are claiming it's a lie because you don't know why. Just because you don't know why doesn't mean it's a lie. Even though you're* "Very Sure"* 

Here is the Bible's answer to Verisure's question "Why"

Firstly, The doctrine of the virgin birth is crucially important (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27, 34). In response to Mary’s question, “How will this be?” (Luke 1:34), Gabriel says, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35). 

Secondly, Matthew 1:20 tells us that the angel encourages Joseph to not fear marrying Mary with these words: “What is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit”. Matthew states that the virgin “was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18)

From these passages, it is certainly clear that Jesus’ birth was the result of the Holy Spirit working within Mary’s body. The immaterial (the Spirit) and the material (Mary’s womb) were both involved. Mary, of course, could not impregnate herself, and in that sense she was simply a “vessel.” Only God could perform the miracle of the Incarnation.

However, denying a physical connection between Mary and Jesus would imply that Jesus was not truly human. Scripture teaches that Jesus was fully human, with a physical body like ours. This He received from Mary. At the same time, Jesus was fully God, with an eternal, sinless nature (John 1:14; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-17.)

Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26). It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father (Romans 5:12, 17, 19). The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 2, 2021)

I am curious, according to the bible God came upon Mary and she was with child. What form, if any, did God come upon Mary to make her with child? When did God enter into Mary and how did he do it? Was Mary pleasured by God? How did God leave and return to his former self if he had former identifying factors? 

Some things are beyond our scope of understanding but we continue to question matters of the spirit even though there are no logical explanations to the questions we ask. Just because we may not know for certain does not diminish the fact of these occurrence. Whether we believe or not is our prerogative, either way be courteous and respectful to your neighbors because everybody's contribution is valued.


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

I take it your second paragraph was meant for Verisure suggesting that Christians lie about the Virgin Birth and not directed at me I hope.

Re: your first paragraph...God came  to Mary in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a physical being. For instance, I asked for a filling of the Holy Spirit and He has filled me inside with love for God, with joy, with a desire to learn more about Him, etc. That's why I'm so on fire and why some are probably quite annoyed thinking I'm proselytizing..but no it's that I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and thus excited to share the joy and love I feel inside.

To answer your last question: The Holy Spirit is our Helper. God did not leave and return to himself. God exists in 3 forms. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit for the purpose of performing in different ways:
1. Jesus walked among us in physical form and so we could relate better to him and so he could suffer for our sins so we could be forgiven.
2. The Holy Spirit is our Helper
3. God the father is our Creator and will be the one to judge our spiritual life or spiritual death after our physical death


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I am curious, according to the bible God came upon Mary and she was with child. What form, if any, did God come upon Mary to make her with child? When did God enter into Mary and how did he do it? Was Mary pleasured by God? How did God leave and return to his former self if he had former identifying factors?
> 
> Some things are beyond our scope of understanding but we continue to question matters of the spirit even though there are no logical explanations to the questions we ask. Just because we may not know for certain does not diminish the fact of these occurrence. Whether we believe or not is our prerogative, either way be courteous and respectful to your neighbors because everybody's contribution is valued.


Exactly, @Mr. Ed @Lara “ the Holy Spirit will come upon you”, but in what form?  We do not know.  It’s not speculated on anywhere, but simple biological says there had to be semen.

I assume the Holy Spirit became an actual solid individual, or inhabited a man, to accomplish the deed.  That fact Mary does not remember a night with a man is unimportant, understandable, and can be explained in a variety of ways.

The man provided the necessary elements for the body, the semen, the Holy Spirit provided the specific “soul” that God the Father wanted his son JC to have, Mary provided the vessel to carry the baby, and Joseph provided the means for Mary to survive life her life as a “fallen” woman.

It was masterful planning which is why, it had to be done by a God.  The God we choose to believe is God the Father, the Creator, or whatever name you wish to assign to this deity.  The virgin birth simply means Mary did not have penetration sex with a male which is not necessary for pregnancy as we all know now; but would not have known then.


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## Keesha (Apr 2, 2021)

Just a thought here. I think it’s possible for people to strongly believe in a creator without believing every word from the Bible and without feeling shame.


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

Aneeda...I think maybe you missed my post 235 just before yours...maybe not   The Holy spirit didn't become a man nor go into a man nor use a man. The Holy Spirit is like the wind and it was more of a miracle than an act of sex.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> I take it your second paragraph was meant for Verisure suggesting that Christians lie about the Virgin Birth and not directed at me I hope.
> 
> Re: your first paragraph...God came  to Mary in the form of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a physical being. For instance, I asked for a filling of the Holy Spirit and He has filled me inside with love for God, with joy, with a desire to learn more about Him, etc. That's why I'm so on fire and why some are probably quite annoyed thinking I'm proselytizing..but no it's that I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and thus excited to share the joy and love I feel inside.
> 
> ...


In the Old Testament God the Father walked among the people of that time, if I remember correctly.  HE took a physical form.  He could take on many forms as there is the burning bush thing on the mountain as well.

How do you know that the Holy Spirit could not assume a physical form?  If God the Father can assume a physical form, and JC has a physical form, and the Holy Spirit is part of the deity then logically it can be assumed the Holy Spirit can take a physical form.

I believe the Guardian Angels are our helpers.  I believe the Holy Spirit is in charge of making sure souls get placed into bodies.  Someone mention they thought people could be born “evil at birth”.  I disagreed, however, I suppose if a body were born without a soul, that individual could be evil from birth, and possessed by a demon at the time of birth.

As to if you are proselytizing, no, I don’t think you are.  You are not annoying, either.  But, saying you will not discuss things with certain people because of their religion as their minds are decided, is annoying; but also a guarantee that YOU ARE NOT PROSELYTIZING.  Otherwise, you would be talking the ears off all us Catholics .


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> Aneeda...I think maybe you missed my post 235 just before yours...maybe not   The Holy spirit didn't become a man nor go into a man nor use a man. The Holy Spirit is like the wind and it was more of a miracle than an act of sex.


Nope, I saw it.  I’ve responded.


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## Verisure (Apr 2, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I _disagree strongly, very strongly._  God the Father gave us freedom of choice, the right TO CHOOSE what we will believe or not believe.  Faith is not blind.  Define no union with her.  *I thought we agreed the Bible is a historical document written by old men and, yet, you present your case with paraphrasing from the scriptures.*
> 
> Faith is questioning, making as informed a decision as possible, and still believing, despite evidence to the contrary, in whatever you believe in.  Most people can not be swayed.  As @Lara said minds are made up.
> 
> In modern times many people have FAITH, BELIEF, that the virus is not dangerous, the facts about it are wrong, the scientists incorrect, and the doctors paid off.  They follow their chosen leader into the valley of death and many have died.  The graveyards are full of non-believers.


I didn't paraphrase the scriptures. I paraphrased the link that Lara provided.


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

Aneeda, sorry to not respond to your post but it would turn to debate I think. I'll just stick with my post 235. My answers are in there

Verisure...Oh, don't paraphrase me either please


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## Verisure (Apr 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> *Mr. Ed*...do tell...what, when, why?
> 
> *Verisure.*..paraphrasing is a red flag but *I hear you saying that the Bible says Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus,** you are claiming it's a lie because you don't know why.* Just because you don't know why doesn't mean it's a lie. Even though you're "Very Sure"
> 
> ...


** I didn't even mention the bible. I quoted your link, not the bible. *
*
* I am not claiming the myth about Maria's virginity is a lie **"because I don't know why"**. I am saying it's a lie because women don't give birth without a human egg and human sperm. 
*
** Nothing in your post says anything about "why" the lie was created. *


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## Verisure (Apr 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> *Mr. Ed*...do tell...what, when, why?
> 
> *Verisure.*..paraphrasing is a red flag but I hear you saying that the Bible says Mary was a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, you are claiming it's a lie because you don't know why. Just because you don't know why doesn't mean it's a lie. Even though you're* "Very Sure"*
> 
> ...


Since you don't like that I paraphrased your link and you think paraphrasing it is "a _red flag"_ then maybe you prefer this response instead: 

_"What does the Bible say about the virgin Mary?
*Question: "What does the Bible say about the virgin Mary?"

Answer: *Mary the mother of Jesus was described by God as “highly favored” (Luke 1:28). The phrase highly favored comes from a single Greek word, which essentially means “much grace.” Mary received God’s grace.

Grace is “unmerited favor”; that is, grace is a blessing we receive despite the fact that we do not deserve it. Mary needed grace from God and a Savior, just as the rest of us do. Mary herself understood this fact, as she declared in Luke 1:47, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”

The virgin Mary, by God’s grace, recognized that she needed the Savior. The Bible never says that Mary was anyone but an ordinary human whom God chose to use in an extraordinary way. Yes, Mary was a righteous woman and favored (graced) by God (Luke 1:27–28). At the same time, Mary was a sinful human being who needed Jesus Christ as her Savior, just like everyone else (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8).

The virgin Mary did not have an “immaculate conception.” The Bible doesn’t suggest Mary’s birth was anything but a normal human birth. Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (Luke 1:34–38), but she was not a virgin permanently. The idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary is unbiblical. Matthew 1:25, speaking of Joseph, declares, “But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.” The word until clearly indicates that Joseph and Mary did have normal ****** relations after Jesus was born. Mary remained a virgin until the Savior’s birth, but later Joseph and Mary had several children together. Jesus had four half-brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had half-sisters, although they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55–56). God blessed and graced Mary by giving her several children, which in that culture was accepted as the clearest indication of God’s blessing on a woman.

One time when Jesus was speaking, a woman in the crowd proclaimed, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed” (Luke 11:27). There was never a better opportunity for Jesus to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration. What was Jesus’ response? “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it” (Luke 11:28). To Jesus, obedience to God’s Word was more important than being the woman who gave birth to the Savior.

Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus or anyone else direct any praise, glory, or adoration toward Mary. Elizabeth, Mary’s relative, praised Mary in Luke 1:42–44, but her praise is based on the blessing of giving birth to the Messiah. It was not based on any inherent glory in Mary. In fact, after this Mary spoke a song of praise to the Lord, extoling His mindfulness to those of humble state and His mercy and faithfulness (Luke 1:46–55).

Many believe that Mary was one of Luke’s sources for the writing of his Gospel (see Luke 1:1–4). Luke records the angel Gabriel visiting Mary and telling her that she would give birth to a son who would be the Savior. Mary was unsure how this could be since she was a virgin. When Gabriel told her that the child would be conceived by the Holy Spirit, Mary answered, "I am the Lord’s servant. . . . May your word to me be fulfilled. Then the angel left her" (Luke 1:38). Mary responded with belief and a willingness to submit to God’s plan. We, too, should have such faith in God and trustingly follow Him.

In describing the events of Jesus’ birth and the response of those who heard the shepherds’ message about Jesus, Luke writes, "But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart" (Luke 2:19). When Joseph and Mary presented Jesus at the temple, Simeon recognized that Jesus was the Savior and gave God praise. Joseph and Mary marveled at what Simeon had said. Simeon also told Mary, "Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed" (Luke 2:34–35).

Another time at the temple, when Jesus was twelve, Mary was upset that Jesus had remained behind when His parents had left for Nazareth. They were distressed in looking for Him. When they found Him, still in the temple, He said He must be in His Father’s house (Luke 2:49). Jesus returned to Nazareth with His earthly parents and submitted to them. We are told, again, that Mary "treasured up all these things in her heart" (Luke 2:51). Raising Jesus must have been a perplexing endeavor yet also filled with precious moments, perhaps memories that became more poignant as Mary came to more fully understand who Jesus is. We, too, can treasure in our hearts the knowledge of God and the memories of His activity in our lives.

It was Mary who requested Jesus’ intervention at the wedding of Cana, where He performed His first miracle and turned water into wine. Even though Jesus seemingly rebuffed her at first, Mary instructed the servants to do what He told them. She had faith in Him (John 2:1–11).

Later in Jesus’ public ministry, His family grew concerned. Mark 3:20–21 records, "The crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, 'He is out of his mind.'" When His family arrived, Jesus proclaimed that it is those who do the will of God who are His family. Jesus’ brothers did not believe in Him prior to the crucifixion, but at least two of them did afterward—James and Jude (Judas), the authors of the New Testament books bearing their names.

Mary did seem to believe in Jesus throughout His life. She was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25), no doubt feeling the “sword” that Simeon had prophesied would pierce her soul. It was there at the cross that Jesus asked John to serve as Mary’s son, and John took Mary into his home (John 19:26–27). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts chapter 1.

The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there. As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of our worship or adoration.

The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Jesus is our only advocate and mediator in heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If offered worship, adoration, or prayers, Mary would say the same as the angels: “Worship God!” (see Revelation 19:10; 22:9.) Mary herself sets the example for us, directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me — holy is His name” (Luke 1:46–49)."_



*There is no explanation in your link as to why the lie was borne and why it was/is accepted. Questioning superstition is anti-faith. FAITH: *_*"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."*_


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

God doesn't need a human egg and sperm to create life. Example: Adam

So He used the Holy Spirit and a miracle.

Nothing in my post said anything about why a lie was created because a lie wasn't created.


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## Lara (Apr 2, 2021)

"I have to go shopping now" 
at the 2:00 minute mark


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Verisure said:


> ** I didn't even mention the bible. I quoted your link, not the bible. *
> 
> ** I am not claiming the myth about Maria's virginity is a lie **"because I don't know why"**. I am saying it's a lie because women don't give birth without a human egg and human sperm. *
> 
> ** Nothing in your post says anything about "why" the lie was created. *


Well, she, Mary, supplied the egg and someone else supplied the sperm, unless, hmm, nope not going down that road,  to myself.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Lara said:


> God doesn't need a human egg and sperm to create life. Example: Adam
> 
> So He used the Holy Spirit and a miracle.
> 
> Nothing in my post said anything about why a lie was created because a lie wasn't created.


And a rib for EVE, past the BBQ please


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 2, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Since you don't like that I paraphrased your link and you think paraphrasing it is "a _red flag"_ then maybe you prefer this response instead:
> 
> _"What does the Bible say about the virgin Mary?
> *Question: "What does the Bible say about the virgin Mary?"
> ...


I enjoyed reading this thanks.  But I am a “Mary” person.  I believe she has appeared to the faithful.  I believe she hold a prominent place in heaven.


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## digifoss (Apr 2, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> My daughters husband‘s ex wife made their life a living hell.  The police were out to their house, because of the ex wife, more than when he had been married to her.  Apparently she could not understand he was remarried.  When the ex wife finally remarried, things got a little calmer, but not much.  Once the ex wife and her new husband moved out of state, my daughter could at least hang up the phone on her.


Sounds just like my son's ex-wife.  She is an animal.  My son got sole custody of their two young sons in their divorce.  She had supervised visitation for a short while and lost that.  Unfit to raise a pet let alone two kids


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## Lara (Apr 3, 2021)

@Verisure  ,we posted at the same time so I missed your excellent post, which I have read before and is right on. But it doesn't support your view that the virgin birth is a lie. It supports the virgin birth.

Anyway, our posts crossed, yours was serious and mine was not serious so I hope you didn't think I was disrespecting your post by saying I was going shopping. I totally agree with it.


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## Lara (Apr 3, 2021)

Btw, Mary did not supply her own egg and sperm for the incarnation of Jesus. Those 2 items carry with them a sin nature and Jesus, The Messiah,  had to be born sinless in order to fulfill the many many prophesies from the Old Testament for the coming of the Messiah. All of the prophesies, all of the many details, were completely filled when Jesus was born.

That's why the Holy Spirit did a work within Mary's womb to be able to conceive the Messiah. Since the Holy Spirit is a form of God, nothing is impossible.


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## 911 (Apr 3, 2021)

Absolutely. It's all about where your faith lies. If you don't believe, that's OK too.


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

911 said:


> If you don't believe, that's OK too.


Thank you. The God I believe in isn’t the least bit hostile or vengeful. All it’s creations are equally & unconditionally loved therefore I can’t / won’t believe in the Bible word for word. No way.


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## Lara (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Thank you. The God I believe in isn’t the least bit hostile or vengeful. All it’s creations are equally loved therefore I can’t / won’t believe in the Bible word for word. No way.


I agree, God loves everybody....it's when they don't love Him that things start to get complicated and sin can get ugly


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

Lara said:


> I agree, God loves everybody....it's when they don't love Him that things start to get complicated and sin can get ugly


Oh ok. How is it you know everything about God? Should I start looking for wings  & a halo? Lol.


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## Gary O' (Apr 3, 2021)

Lara said:


> God loves everybody....it's when they don't love Him that things start to get complicated and sin can get ugly


That'd be the tough one
Like punishing your child for hurting their brother/sister
...or when your kids decide to kill each other

There's reasons for judgment


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

So regular kids who might get into a fight is due to them not loving God? Personally I think it’s quite normal for kids to fight. It’s not normal for them to kill each other but I also don’t believe this is from a lack of faith or love of God. Many people kill in the name of God. What about the holy war? Isn’t that itself a bit of an oxymoron?
Theres been more wars and violence done to others , all in the name of God. Religions believing theirs is the only proper way to believe in God , can do a huge amount of damage and these people are genuine God worshippers.


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## Gary O' (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> So regular kids who might get into a fight is due to them not loving God? Personally I think it’s quite normal for kids to fight. It’s not normal for them to kill each other but I also don’t believe this is from a lack of faith or love of God. Many people kill in the name of God. What about the holy war? Isn’t that itself a but of an oxymoron?
> Theres been more wars and violence done to others , all in the name of God. Religions believing theirs is the only proper way to believe in God , can do a huge amount of damage and these people are genuine God worshippers.


Not at all

They are not worshipers of God of The Bible

The new testament, Jesus' words, opened up and clarified what its all about

'Holy Wars' are not of God....just man

A more recent history;
Study about the Waldenses
Their persecution
Talk about yer Holy Wars.....


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## Judycat (Apr 3, 2021)

Yes I believe in an eternal hell where horned, bat-winged creatures with pitchforks make stabbing motions at anything that moves in a cave deep underground where lots of hot lava is dripping everywhere.


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Oh ok. How is it you know everything about God? Should I start looking for wings  & a halo? Lol.


I’m glad you took it in the spirit it was given.


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## caroln (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> You raise a good point ; the  time the Bible was written. A lot of things have changed. Most women aren’t owned any more however some still are. I’m so grateful to be living where we do. Obedient I don’t do!


Your comment made me remember my second marriage ceremony.  We didn't go over what the pastor was going to say beforehand, and when he got to "promise to obey" I kind of choked and hesitated.  The pastor stopped and asked if I had an objection to the word "obey" and I kind of laughed and said, yeah, but go ahead.  The whole congregation was amused at that little glitch.


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## Verisure (Apr 3, 2021)

Judycat said:


> Yes I believe in an eternal hell where horned, bat-winged creatures with pitchforks make stabbing motions at anything that moves in a cave deep underground where lots of hot lava is dripping everywhere.


So, I'm not the only one raised a Catholic.


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

caroln said:


> Your comment made me remember my second marriage ceremony.  We didn't go over what the pastor was going to say beforehand, and when he got to "promise to obey" I kind of choked and hesitated.  The pastor stopped and asked if I had an objection to the word "obey" and I kind of laughed and said, yeah, but go ahead.  The whole congregation was amused at that little glitch.


haha. That’s so cute. Amused @ the glitch. 
This is the very reason that I’ve never actually had my own marriage ceremony. It’s not from lack of offers. It’s that ‘honour & obey’ stuff, like there’s some kind of ownership. I’m not the owned kind of woman so I chose common law marriage. It’s been 32 years. So far, so good.


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## digifoss (Apr 3, 2021)

To thine own self be true


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 3, 2021)

Hell is here on earth and right now, not some future event....and obviously is not eternal. Nobody gets through life without a large dose of suffering in all it's many forms. To me that equates to hell on earth.


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 3, 2021)

caroln said:


> Your comment made me remember my second marriage ceremony.  We didn't go over what the pastor was going to say beforehand, and when he got to "promise to obey" I kind of choked and hesitated.  The pastor stopped and asked if I had an objection to the word "obey" and I kind of laughed and said, yeah, but go ahead.  The whole congregation was amused at that little glitch.


Good for you for being honest and not just shoving down what U believe and saying yes to it!

We both had the wording changed to " respect and help each other!" Which we did, and that I am sure contributed to our marriage longevity


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## Judycat (Apr 3, 2021)

Verisure said:


> So, I'm not the only one raised a Catholic.


No you are not.


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## Shalimar (Apr 3, 2021)

While I respect another’s right to believe as they choose, I simply cannot fathom a Divine Being who would choose to teach/punish their erring children by means of the threat of hellfire. I prefer a non punitive  Creator, and the concept of Reincarnation.


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Not at all
> 
> They are not worshipers of God of The Bible
> 
> ...


What I was getting at is that there are plenty of God worshippers who kill over their religious beliefs. The example you gave me is a perfect example of just that. 

They didn’t set out to oppose the Roman Catholic Church but we excommunicated and targeted for extermination and then prosecuted. 

Peter Waldo wanted to learn from Jesus so followed him to learn. Jesus told him to give away all his possessions to the poor and live like a missionary, travelling  the country to teach the words of the Bible. He also wanted to translate the Bible into other languages but was met with hostility. He had to hide away because the way he loved God and practised what he preached wasn’t accepted by the Roman Catholics. Still, he had a following of about 10,000. Two thousand of them were massacred and 8,000 put in jail. 

It’s a perfect example of religious God worshipping people being killed by God loving people, the Roman Catholics. 

If thou shall not judge, how does this happen?
If thou shall not kill, how does this happen?

And this is just ‘one’ story. 

Here’s the story....

The Waldensian movement was one of the first Christian efforts to translate the Bible into a local dialect and engage in public preaching of the gospel. The commitment of the group can be summarized in these three activities: making the gospel known and understood in the native language of the people, identifying with the poor by becoming poor, and pursuing closer obedience to a life of faith by following the teachings of Jesus Christ and the example of his disciples.

Other similar evangelical movements were common during medieval times, but none endured like the Waldensians. Pre-dating the Protestant Reformation by 300 years, the beginning of the Waldensian movement is sometimes referred to as the “First Reformation.” The group has also been called the “Oldest Evangelical Church” and “Israel of the Alps.”

Although the Waldensians did not set out to oppose the Roman Catholic Church, they were branded heretics, excommunicated by Pope Lucius III in 1184, and targeted for extermination in several campaigns. In truth, they were a small, scattered but close-knit group that professed orthodox beliefs and generally remained faithful to the Catholic Church until the time of the Reformation.

Waldo of Lyons (c. 1140–1217)
The founder of the Waldensians was Waldo (Valdes in French) of Lyons, a wealthy and influential young merchant from Lyons, France. After the sudden death of a close friend, Waldo began to search for deeper meaning in life. Around A.D. 1173, Waldo was profoundly moved by the words of Jesus Christ to the rich young man in the Gospel of Mark 10:21:

Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (NLT)

Voluntary Poverty
Between 1173–1176, Waldo’s life changed radically. Deciding to follow the Lord’s words literally, he gave away his wealth to the poor and started a life of intentional poverty. Later, his disciples would become known as “The Poor Men of Lyons,” or simply “The Poor.” The name they claimed for themselves was “The Poor of Spirit” from the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:3.

Preaching the Gospel
Believing that all people ought to have the opportunity to hear and understand the Word of God, Waldo employed Bernard Ydros and Stephen of Ansa to translate several books of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into his local French-Provencal dialect. When the translation was presented in Rome, it received words of approval from the pope. Encouraged by the positive response, Waldo had hoped his efforts would begin a renewal in the whole church.


From this translation, Waldo began preaching and teaching the Bible in public. Copying his example, Waldo’s followers (traveling in twos) took the gospel to surrounding towns and villages. This activity of public preaching was particularly offensive to Catholic authorities and instigated the conflict and persecution that Waldensians would endure for centuries.

'Peter' Waldo
In the spring of 1179, Waldo and his followers were forbidden by the church to preach unless explicitly invited by a priest. But Waldo was convinced the body of Christ should base its experiences on those of the apostles and not on the human constructs of his day. He continued to preach openly. Several years later, around 1183, Waldo was banned from the city by the archbishop of Lyons.

When he was warned to stop preaching, Waldo responded with the words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 4:19: “Do you think God wants us to obey you rather than him?” Some historians believe this episode was the catalyst for Waldo being referred to as “Peter Waldo” by future Waldensians.

After Waldo was cast out of Lyons, little more is known of his life except that he probably died around A.D. 1217 or 1218.

Followers referred to themselves as Waldo’s “co-members,” and called their group a “society.” They did not want to be thought of as a religious entity apart from the Catholic Church. They merely wanted to be a group of lay people—Christian disciples—who followed Christ and preached his message.

Once expelled from the city, Waldo and his followers moved to the remote Alpine mountain areas of France and Italy. For the next three centuries, the Waldensians would be persecuted, forced underground, and on the run. Nevertheless, they formed strong communities and eventually spread into Austria, Germany, and other parts of Europe.

The Teachings of Jesus
 “They go about two by two, barefoot, clad in woollen garments, owning nothing, holding all things common like the apostles, naked, following a naked Christ.” – The observations of a twelfth-century churchman, Walter Map. 

One historian explained this unusual use of the adjective “naked” to mean both “materially poor” and “of Christ alone.” With no religious “extras,” the Waldensians sought to follow Christ in his poverty and as their only reference point for faith.

Thus, the goal of the Waldenses was to live in absolute faithfulness to the teachings of Jesus Christ, especially those in his Sermon on the Mount. Adherents wanted to relive, as close as possible, the experiences of the first disciples. As a result, the practice that most sharply defined the Waldensians was their vow to live in poverty and simplicity as the earliest Christians did.

Belief in the Bible
Waldensian beliefs are based on the Bible, yet the movement began at a time when ordinary people had no access to the Scriptures. Therefore, the Bible needed to be translated into the native language and preached in public so that all people could hear and understand the Word of God. Only then could men and women know Jesus Christ as the center of their faith. Salvation, they believed, was the work of Christ alone.

Waldensians believed that the church, when faithful to its true calling, follows in the steps of the apostles. Waldensians were opposed to any form of violence. Based on Matthew 5:33-37, they refused to take oaths. They also rejected the practice of selling indulgences and refused to lend money at interest. These views often made the Waldensians seem like dangerous rebels to both the religious authorities and political powers of the time.

Everyone participated in the Waldensian community; men and women, young and old, all could preach the gospel. Because of their devotion to Scripture, many of the Waldensian religious practices and views aligned with those of the 16th-century Protestant reformers. They rejected the notion of purgatory, transubstantiation, and some of the Catholic sacraments. They refused to worship saints or pray for the dead.

Waldensians were convinced that the church would lose its spiritual life if it became wealthy, privileged, and powerful in the world. Therefore, when Emperor Constantine had made Christianity the state religion in the 4th century, the Waldensians saw it as a compromise with the world and the start of the church’s downfall.

Nevertheless, most Waldensians generally remained orthodox in their views and continued to see themselves as part of the Roman Catholic Church until the time of the Reformation. Many took communion at least once a year and baptized their children.

The Barba
In the 15th century, the Waldensians began to refer to their pastors and preachers as the barba, a term of respect which means “uncle” in the local Alpine dialect. The title kept them from being confused with Catholic “fathers.” Young barbas were sent to school for training in the Scriptures and preparation for life in ministry. After training, they would accompany an experienced barba to gain on-the-job experience. Barbas traveled in pairs visiting small groups of underground believers. Disguised as pilgrims and merchants, they avoided the Catholic Inquisitions.

The Reformation
Also in the 15th century, the Waldensians became associated with the Bohemian Brethren and supported their leader, the Czech church reformer Jan Hus. Hus was labeled a heretic and burned at the stake in 1415 for his radical teachings. Although he remained a devoted Catholic priest, his views allied with those of the Waldensians. Hus believed that Scripture was the final authority, not the Catholic Church. He also felt the Bible should be translated into common languages to be read and publicly preached.

Eventually, through the influence of Swiss reformer William Farel (1489–1565), the Waldensians joined the Protestant Reformation and aligned with the reformed views of Calvinism.

Persecution and Massacre
The Waldensians endured persecution not just in their beginnings, but throughout the centuries and in different locations. These are only a few of the more significant massacres.

    •            In 1251, Waldensians in Toulouse, France, were massacred for non-conformity to the church, and their town was burned to the ground.
    •            The massacre of 22 villages in the French region of Luberon in Provence took place in 1545. Royal troops led by the Baron of Oppède were ordered to punish religious dissenters by King Francis I of France. The papal army brutally murdered nearly 3,000 Waldensians in the bloody crusade, including those in Mérindol and Cabrières.
    •            In January 1655, the massacre known as the “Piedmont Easter” or the “Bloody Spring” took place. Under the forces of the Duke of Savoy, hundreds of unarmed Waldensians were cruelly tortured and killed.
    •            In 1685, King Louis XIV rescinded the Edict of Nantes which had provided a brief time of religious protection for the Waldensians. Once again, a widespread campaign began to purge the Waldensians and force them back into Catholicism. In 1686, the new duke prohibited the Waldensians from practicing their religion, and for the first time, the church formally resisted. Within three days of combat, the Waldensians were defeated, their churches burned, and more than 8,000 were thrown into prison. Two-thousand Waldensians died in the massacre.

Most of the surviving Waldensians took refuge in Switzerland. But a few years later, in 1689, they were able to return to their valleys in what is remembered as the “Glorious Return.”

A Story of Survival
Although they remained suppressed in numbers, the Waldensians continued to survive centuries of hardship and oppression. By the 18th century, they maintained a cloistered Protestant presence in the mainly Catholic Piedmont region of northwest Italy. Only with the aid of surrounding Protestant countries did the Waldensians endure.

In 1848, the Waldensian church was finally liberated through the Edict of Emancipation that gave them legal and political freedom. Nevertheless, the church still struggled beneath Catholic subjugation. When Alexis Muston, a 19th-century French Reformed pastor, wrote a thesis on the Waldensians without the church’s official permission, he was taken to court and had to flee the country. Later, Muston’s book, The Israel of the Alps: A Complete History of the Waldenses of Piedmont and their Colonies, originally published in 1875, was translated into English and German. The text provides perhaps the most significant history of the Waldensians from the time of their origins until the time of their emancipation.

The Waldensians still exist today, primarily in the Piedmont region of Italy.

In 2015, Pope Francis visited the Waldensian church in Turin, Italy. It was here that Waldensian Christians endured brutal persecution by the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages. On behalf of the Church, Pope Francis asked Waldensians believers for forgiveness:

“On the part of the Catholic Church, I ask your forgiveness, I ask it for the non-Christian and even inhuman attitudes and behavior that we have shown you. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us!”

A Light in the Darkness
The traditional emblem of the Waldensian church is a candle on top of a Bible. The motto above the symbol reads “Lux Lucet in Tenebris,” meaning “a light shining in the darkness.”

At the heart of Waldensian history is a people of indestructible faith. Against all odds, their light would not be extinguished through the darkness of violent oppression and isolation. The unstoppable spirit of the Waldensians mirrors that of their Savior, the Light of the World, whom they dared to follow.

End of story. My main point is that there have been many wars fought over religion. ( God worshipping followers )


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## Gary O' (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> It’s a perfect example of religious God worshipping people being killed by God loving people, the Roman Catholics.





Keesha said:


> My main point is that there have been many wars fought over religion. ( God worshipping followers )


Notice who/what did the killing......

That's why there are protestants 

Not all churches are of God


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## Shalimar (Apr 3, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> Hell is here on earth and right now, not some future event....and obviously is not eternal. Nobody gets through life without a large dose of suffering in all it's many forms. To me that equates to hell on earth.


  Oh yes


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 3, 2021)

Verisure said:


> If I were asked what I consider the worst atrocity committed by Christians I would probably say it is the notion of Christian missionary work.


Missionaries have caused harm in places. However, they have also caused good...I especially give credit to Jehova's Witnesses who are willing to put op with rude and nasty behavior all for their beliefs.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 3, 2021)

Someone mentioned Spothern Baptists..I grew up in Louisiana and I remember our Newman Club (Catholic students) dances on Sunday nights. We had Southern Baptists coming because they were not allowed to dance in their churches.. Wonderful times!!


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Notice who/what did the killing......
> 
> That's why there are protestants
> 
> Not all churches are of God


Oh! Ok! I was ‘not’ expecting that answer.

I had a response but lost it.


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## Knight (Apr 3, 2021)

How to explain volcanos.  

That is where evil people are condemned to go upon death. 

The night sky or heavens as it is commonly called.

Is the place where the spirit of a good persons spirit might go when they die. 

Somewhere between those two is a place where angels & the devil's helpers hang out to fact check a ledger filled with what billions of humans have done. 

That might sound crazy but how else would a spirit get a fair judgement ?


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

Please say you’re kidding?


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## Shalimar (Apr 3, 2021)

I love satire


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## Lara (Apr 3, 2021)

When trying to fathom the particulars as to the who-what-when-why-where of Hell, I just lean on biblical scripture. There's a lot in there about the particulars. Not every question is answered but many.


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)




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## Pepper (Apr 3, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> While I respect another’s right to believe as they choose, I simply cannot fathom a Divine Being who would choose to teach/punish their erring children by means of the threat of hellfire.* I prefer a non punitive  Creator*, and the concept of Reincarnation.


What individuals prefer has nothing to do with what is.


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## Knight (Apr 3, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Please say you’re kidding?


A simple explanation or at least a version that makes sense of why hell is internal to our planet. You have to agree thousands dyeing daily in our world would have to have an intermediate stopping place to verify how they were when they were alive. 

Then the billions that have lived and died over the centuries must have been a real challenge to assess since humans have evolved in their interactions. Crime and punishment what might be evil now was part of how life was centuries ago. 

Thinking about that what kind of judgement would take place for acts like these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismemberment

Would the persons doing the dismemberment or the person ordering dismemberment be judged the same?


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## Keesha (Apr 3, 2021)

It just goes to show how hostile humanity truly is. I have no answer.


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## Shalimar (Apr 3, 2021)

Knight said:


> A simple explanation or at least a version that makes sense of why hell is internal to our planet. You have to agree thousands dyeing daily in our world would have to have an intermediate stopping place to verify how they were when they were alive.
> 
> Then the billions that have lived and died over the centuries must have been a real challenge to assess since humans have evolved in their interactions. Crime and punishment what might be evil now was part of how life was centuries ago.
> 
> ...


  Oh my, thank you so much for the laughter. It was worth spitting coffee all over the rug


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## Verisure (Apr 3, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> *Missionaries have caused harm in places.* *However, they have also caused good*...I especially give credit to Jehova's Witnesses who are willing to put op with rude and nasty behavior all for their beliefs.


For example?


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## Verisure (Apr 3, 2021)

When I die I'm going to heaven because I've already spent my time in hell. Vietnam 1966 - 1967. Plus I was married to a psychopath woman for 3 years.


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## Shalimar (Apr 3, 2021)

Some of us graduated from the University of Hell, and have the tattoo. Red mortarboard balanced delicately on a pitchfork, floating over an orange red flame. On mortarboard letters inscribed U of H. Rather tasteful, I thought.


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## caroln (Apr 4, 2021)

One time on the show The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Amy were discussing church and Amy said something that I've always thought about.  Sheldon said that his mother made him go to church when he was a kid, and she said (paraphrasing here a little), "I understand the concept of a deity, I just don't understand one that takes attendance."  I never understood why church was mandatory when God is supposed to be everywhere.  What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 4, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Someone mentioned Spothern Baptists..I grew up in Louisiana and I remember our Newman Club (Catholic students) dances on Sunday nights. We had Southern Baptists coming because they were not allowed to dance in their churches.. Wonderful times!!


Yes, certain sects of the Southern Baptists were not allowed to dance, that is the sect I was raised in or wear make up etc.  The ones that came to your dances, were probably not raised in the same sect as I was.  They would not have participated.  The sticks up their bums and the Bible’s glued in their hands would have prevented dancing of any kind, anywhere.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 4, 2021)

Judycat said:


> Yes I believe in an eternal hell where horned, bat-winged creatures with pitchforks make stabbing motions at anything that moves in a cave deep underground where lots of hot lava is dripping everywhere.


So, you knew my first husband?


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## Keesha (Apr 4, 2021)

caroln said:


> What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


My husband, who knows far more about history & religion , than I ever would , says that people first started attending a once a week meeting because the Bible was only written in Hewbrew. The common person would need it translated which was the main reason they met. This then become tradition and later became a time to collect offerings or donations towards the service. Hearing these types of services seemed to help people cope, mentality, physically and spiritually.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 4, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Hope this topic is ok.  I can not accept the idea of an eternal hell. I still think it was a teaching specifically to 'control the masses'
> What loving God would condemn anyone for eternity. I accept karma and the need to atone for wrongdoing in some way or another, but not eternal damnation.
> This may be why I also am slowly accepting the idea of reincarnation, though I am not totally 'happy' with it
> Still, it seems to be a 'just' method to work out our challenges and misdeeds.


I have to say I don't believe in "eternal anything". We're just not that important, though we like to think we are. We're all afraid to die so we invented life after death.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 4, 2021)

Verisure said:


> For example?


Missionaries have caused both good and not good. Some brought diseases and engaged in slavery. Some built orphanages,  brought healthcare,
 educated locals, etc.
 If you really think all missionaries did only harm I don't think there is any way to convince you otherwise. The internet is full of the good works accomplished as well as the harm committed.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 4, 2021)

caroln said:


> One time on the show The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Amy were discussing church and Amy said something that I've always thought about.  Sheldon said that his mother made him go to church when he was a kid, and she said (paraphrasing here a little), "I understand the concept of a deity, I just don't understand one that takes attendance."  I never understood why church was mandatory when God is supposed to be everywhere.  What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


I kind of feel this way as well but have heard over and over there is _strength in numbers. _I remember the 'where 2 or more are gathered in my name..." from the bible but forget where it is...
I feel God is always with all of us..and am reminded _'In Him we live and move and have our being"_


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 4, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I have to say I don't believe in "eternal anything". We're just not that important, though we like to think we are. We're all afraid to die so we invented life after death.


I think we are 'that important'.
 I used to think perhaps the fear of death was the reason we had to believe, but for some strange reason knowing if there is nothing we will never know somehow is partial proof there is...and I can not explain that but just feel it is true.. Many will disagree with me and believe otherwise and that is OK with me.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 4, 2021)

Verisure said:


> When I die I'm going to heaven because I've already spent my time in hell. Vietnam 1966 - 1967. Plus I was married to a psychopath woman for 3 years.


Thank you for your service. I can not imagine what it is like to be in the hell that is war..


----------



## Verisure (Apr 4, 2021)

Keesha said:


> My husband, who knows far more about history & religion , than I ever would , says that people first started attending a once a week meeting because the Bible was only written in Hewbrew. The common person would need it translated which was the main reason they met. This then become tradition and later became a time to collect offerings or donations towards the service. Hearing these types of services seemed to help people cope, mentality, physically and spiritually.


Your husband is right.


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## Verisure (Apr 4, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Missionaries have caused both good and not good. Some brought diseases and engaged in slavery. Some built orphanages,  brought healthcare,
> educated locals, etc.
> If you really think all missionaries did only harm I don't think there is any way to convince you otherwise. The internet is full of the good works accomplished as well as the harm committed.


The deeds you mention were/are not a gift. Christian missionaries are footmen in the service of an organization that operates by methods similar to that of the mafia.  I've lived in sub-Saharan Africa where a common expression is, *"Missionaries came with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other."*


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## Dana (Apr 4, 2021)

.
My goodness, this thread is still going…ah well…

Except for Easter and Christmas, weddings, baptisms and funerals, I rarely go to church, but they do ask me to sing, so I keep making an appearance. I went to my little country church this Easter and as I watched the vicar and the people in the church…the “believers” of everything…I could not help wondering, would they love Jesus as much if they knew what he really looked like?

All those crosses with effigies of a blond haired blue eye Jesus ( real name Yeshua or Joshua)…I ponder as to what might change if, the person Christians celebrate as God in the flesh and saviour of the entire world, was not a white man, but a Middle Eastern Jew…if God made humans in His image, then why are we not more loving and kind to different races??

The whitewashing of Jesus is very sad indeed and to think people are still doing this in the 21st century makes me cringe. I can only hope children begin to question these things at an early age and have a more sensible approach to life than their parents.


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 4, 2021)

Dana said:


> .
> My goodness, this thread is still going…ah well…
> 
> Except for Easter and Christmas, weddings, baptisms and funerals, I rarely go to church, but they do ask me to sing, so I keep making an appearance. I went to my little country church this Easter and as I watched the vicar and the people in the church…the “believers” of everything…I could not help wondering, would they love Jesus as much if they knew what he really looked like?
> ...


Qft.


----------



## Dana (Apr 4, 2021)

.
WoW....
I can’t believe some of the stuff I am reading here. As a somewhat sane, practical person with feet firmly planted on the ground, I cannot get my head around some mindsets. Sooo now the eternal hell has been moved from the outer nether to the centre of the earth… I think someone is having a massive Jules Verne moment!

If the fear of going to eternal hell, is what’s keeping some people from living an abysmal life, then they really have some major problems. Surely, to be a good person you don’t need this far-fetched and dubious incentive to keep you on the straight and narrow…how about doing unto others…(you know the rest) and let the Universe decide (as it has been doing for millions of years) what action is necessary.

Many Christians assume Jesus himself taught about heaven and hell… that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible written before Christ) endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or a place of everlasting torture. This entire palaver started with the arrival of the New Testament written in the first century Anno Domini and long after Jesus died!

The poor ravaged souls who could not read nor write were baptized with fear. When Jesus was crucified, many who were drawn to him during his lifetime, were leaving the “group”… I say group because, the word Christianity did not even exist at that time…so to keep them in their place, the elders devise a plan…the plan was… heaven and hell, fire and damnation, roasting on the spit! Put the fear of God into them and they will behave, they will believe, they will do as they were told, many of them who have never even seen Jesus or heard him speak.






Be warned…nothing will save you from the molten rock, the unquenchable fire in the bowels of the earth, and this guy


----------



## Verisure (Apr 4, 2021)

Dana said:


> .
> My goodness, this thread is still going…ah well…


My goodness, is humanity still pondering the meaning of life?



Dana said:


> Except for Easter and Christmas, weddings, baptisms and funerals, I rarely go to church, but they do ask me to sing, so I keep making an appearance. I went to my little country church this Easter and as I watched the vicar and the people in the church…the “believers” of everything…I could not help wondering, *would they love Jesus as much if they knew what he really looked like?
> 
> All those crosses with effigies of a blond haired blue eye Jesus* ( real name Yeshua or Joshua)…I ponder as to what might change if, the person Christians celebrate as God in the flesh and saviour of the entire world, was not a white man, but a Middle Eastern Jew…if God made humans in His image, then why are we not more loving and kind to different races??
> 
> The whitewashing of Jesus is very sad indeed and to think people are still doing this in the 21st century makes me cringe. I can only hope children begin to question these things at an early age and have a more sensible approach to life than their parents.


Well, Jesus isn't depicted the same over the globe.
I wonder if Islam would experience a surge in popularity and conversion if Mohammad were depicted with blond hair and blue eyes?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> The deeds you mention were/are not a gift. Christian missionaries are footmen in the service of an organization that operates by methods similar to that of the mafia.  I've lived in sub-Saharan Africa where a common expression is, *"Missionaries came with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other."*


You are absolutely right on this expression, it wasn’t as if the native tribes of other countries were waiting for the priests to show up.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 5, 2021)

Dana said:


> .
> My goodness, this thread is still going…ah well…
> 
> Except for Easter and Christmas, weddings, baptisms and funerals, I rarely go to church, but they do ask me to sing, so I keep making an appearance. I went to my little country church this Easter and as I watched the vicar and the people in the church…the “believers” of everything…I could not help wondering, would they love Jesus as much if they knew what he really looked like?
> ...


It would depend on the color of the skin of the people in the congregation.

Some people still believe Jesus had white skin, after all, if according to some, JC was created without sperm or egg , then being born white, blue eyed, and blonde would be no big deal.  After all, all things are possible with God.  . @Dana


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 5, 2021)

Dana said:


> .
> WoW....
> I can’t believe some of the stuff I am reading here. As a somewhat sane, practical person with feet firmly planted on the ground, I cannot get my head around some mindsets. Sooo now the eternal hell has been moved from the outer nether to the centre of the earth… I think someone is having a massive Jules Verne moment!
> 
> ...


The Romans believed in Hades which was in the earth, if I remember correctly.  Just saying


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## Dana (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> My goodness, is humanity still pondering the meaning of life?
> 
> 
> Well, Jesus isn't depicted the same over the globe.
> I wonder if Islam would experience a surge in popularity and conversion if Mohammad were depicted with blond hair and blue eyes?



*Am I the Dana you're meaning? If so, why is the picture called Dana's Jesus?*


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## Dana (Apr 5, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> The Romans believed in Hades which was in the earth, if I remember correctly.  Just saying


_
The Romans also worshipped the pagan God, Hades, who was the keeper of the Hell of Hades!_


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 5, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Someone mentioned Spothern Baptists..I grew up in Louisiana and I remember our Newman Club (Catholic students) dances on Sunday nights. We had Southern Baptists coming because they were not allowed to dance in their churches.. Wonderful times!!


I attended a Catholic public school while my dad was at  New Orleans Southern Baptist Seminary between 1959-1962.


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## Mr. Ed (Apr 5, 2021)

caroln said:


> One time on the show The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Amy were discussing church and Amy said something that I've always thought about.  Sheldon said that his mother made him go to church when he was a kid, and she said (paraphrasing here a little), "I understand the concept of a deity, I just don't understand one that takes attendance."  I never understood why church was mandatory when God is supposed to be everywhere.  What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


In my case church was mandatory to show support for my dad. When I realized church has nothing to do with my relationship to God I stopped going. My dad was a dysfunctional man who had a family he rejected  in exchange for admiration by church and community. Paradoxically, not once did my dad talk about God, Jesus or faith to me or my brothers nor did he invest himself in our upbringing.


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## Judycat (Apr 5, 2021)

Hope everyone took their training in this life seriously if you're looking forward to participating in the next one. A war is going on there. The grave is your other choice, however.


----------



## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> You are absolutely right on this expression, it wasn’t as if the native tribes of other countries were waiting for the priests to show up.


Good point. And look at the treatment the indigenous population had to put up with in the name of Jesus, "civilization", and colonization: The first half of this recording gives us an idea


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Dana said:


> *Am I the Dana you're meaning? If so, why is the picture called Dana's Jesus?*


Did you click on it? I made the collage just for you and I had to name it something ......


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## garyt1957 (Apr 5, 2021)

Judycat said:


> Hope everyone took their training in this life seriously if you're looking forward to participating in the next one. A war is going on there. The grave is your other choice, however.


What does that even mean?


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## digifoss (Apr 5, 2021)

Lots of opinions here, it's almost like one of those "what's the best oil" threads in a car forum ..


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

digifoss said:


> Lots of opinions here, it's almost like one of those "what's the best oil" threads in a car forum ..


No, there are only two opinions here: Do you Believe in an eternal hell or do you not believe in an eternal hell?
Opinions: Yes or No.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 5, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> In my case church was mandatory to show support for my dad. When I realized church has nothing to do with my relationship to God I stopped going. My dad was a dysfunctional man who had a family he rejected  in exchange for admiration by church and community. Paradoxically, not once did my dad talk about God, Jesus or faith to me or my brothers nor did he invest himself in our upbringing.


My father, married over 7 times with at least 10 children, on his third marriage after my mother became, YUP, a Baptist preacher and a child modester, of his last few daughters.


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 5, 2021)

I am always amazed that in our modern day and age with numerous Satellites and multiple space exploration vehicles (Voyager, Cassini etc.) sending back tens of thousands of hours of photos and sensor data that anyone can think that there are all types of spirit beings and billions of people at a physical, tangible heaven or hell out there somewhere.

Nothing has been found or seen, even by the two Voyagers who went past the edge of the bubble before we could no longer receive data from them.

If there is heaven or hell out there, is it thousands of light years away from earth? (at 37,000 MPH it took decades for the Voyagers reach the end of their mission).

So how did these spirits of people get through an incredibly dangerous/hostile environment, thousands of degrees temps, toxic hot gases, with solid obstacles (stars, planets, asteroids, gazillions of dust particles etc) along the way?

Even if the black hole, in the center of our galaxy, is their fast shortcut way to the destination it it numerous light years away from earth. Still one hell of a long hostile journey

It is just not rational or feasible. So that leaves us with Hell (and Heaven) IF they exist being here !


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## Capt Lightning (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> No, there are only two opinions here: Do you Believe in an eternal hell or do you not believe in an eternal hell?
> Opinions: Yes or No.


NO ....  but I have been to a Van Morrison concert!


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> I am always amazed that in our modern day and age with numerous Satellites and multiple space exploration vehicles (Voyager, Cassini etc.) sending back tens of thousands of hours of photos and sensor data that anyone can think that there are all types of spirit beings and billions of people at a physical, tangible heaven or hell out there somewhere.
> 
> Nothing has been found or seen, even by the two Voyagers who went past the edge of the bubble before we could no longer receive data from them.
> 
> ...


Have faith, my son.


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Capt Lightning said:


> NO ....  but I have been to a Van Morrison concert!


In that case, you already know the meaning of life.


----------



## Knight (Apr 5, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> I am always amazed that in our modern day and age with numerous Satellites and multiple space exploration vehicles (Voyager, Cassini etc.) sending back tens of thousands of hours of photos and sensor data that anyone can think that there are all types of spirit beings and billions of people at a physical, tangible heaven or hell out there somewhere.
> 
> Nothing has been found or seen, even by the two Voyagers who went past the edge of the bubble before we could no longer receive data from them.
> 
> ...


We do know volcanos puke out fire & brimstone so as a place to end up makes sense if you want to scare people into believing there is an alternative.

The alternative wouldn't be in the heavens or solar system simply because A super natural being that would have to be about 13.8 billion years old supposedly made the heavens & earth. To do this that super natural being would have to be somewhere outside the heavens & earth. So while satellites, space probes, trips to the moon & Mars haven't witnessed any mass of spirits,souls or whatever goes out there, it's because they go Where no man has gone before.  

Our universe is 13.8 billion years old, a timescale much longer than the more relatable spans of hundreds or thousands of years that impact our lived experiences. So how do astronomers arrive at such an enormous number?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...e is 13.8 billion,at such an enormous number?


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Have faith, my son.


 I'm a girl.    The faith fantasy went out the window for me at the age of 7 when I discovered I had a brain.


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## officerripley (Apr 5, 2021)

Dana said:


> .
> WoW....
> I can’t believe some of the stuff I am reading here. As a somewhat sane, practical person with feet firmly planted on the ground, I cannot get my head around some mindsets. Sooo now the eternal hell has been moved from the outer nether to the centre of the earth… I think someone is having a massive Jules Verne moment!
> 
> ...



Sorry for all the blank space above; can't figure how to edit pix I post here.


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## Dana (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> My goodness, is humanity still pondering the meaning of life?
> 
> 
> Well, Jesus isn't depicted the same over the globe.
> I wonder if Islam would experience a surge in popularity and conversion if Mohammad were depicted with blond hair and blue eyes?


_*
Wonderful Verisure...that's what I'm talking about!  Thank you so much for the collage*_


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> I'm a girl The faith fantasy went out the window for me at the age of 7 when I discovered I had a brain.


At 7? Most people don't discover they have a brain until they've reached about 40 and have experienced their first divorce.


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## Keesha (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> At 7? Most people don't discover they have a brain until they've reached about 40 and have experienced their first divorce.


 So many things I could say but won’t. 
First divorce?


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## Verisure (Apr 5, 2021)

Keesha said:


> So many things I could say but won’t.
> First divorce?


Go on, say it. We're all friends here. 
Divorce is usually the moment you discover true freedom and when you realize that life holds unlimited choices to make. I'm not criticizing relationships or marriage because the experience you take with you after divorce makes you wiser in the next relationship .... which is part of the unlimited choices I was talking about.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 5, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Go on, say it. We're all friends here.
> Divorce is usually the moment you discover true freedom and when you realize that life holds unlimited choices to make. I'm not criticizing relationships or marriage because the experience you take with you after divorce makes you wiser in the next relationship .... which is part of the unlimited choices I was talking about.


No. I’ll keep my opinion to myself.


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 5, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I’ve discovered total freedom and happiness without getting divorced . Then again, I realized I had a brain well before 40. Just sayin.’.. lol


Keesha, What you said...Me too. And I already posted earlier that I had a brain by 7.
Nobody had to knock me down with a divorce to learn and understand.
Getting out of High School was all it took to realize that life holds unlimited choices. Because as soon as we graduate we do have unlimited choices ahead of us.


----------



## Ladybj (Apr 5, 2021)

Absolutely NOT.  However, some carry Hell with them here on Earth.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 5, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> Keesha, What you said...Me too.
> Nobody had to knock me down with a divorce to learn and understand.
> Getting out of High School was all it took to realize that life holds unlimited choices. Because as soon as we graduate we do have unlimited choices ahead of us.


Wasnt sure if I was being needlessly cruel with my comments but I’m glad someone else feels the same. Most of us have free choice to do whatever we want. I’m glad I haven’t had to go through any divorces and some of the heartaches that these families go through due to it.


----------



## Dana (Apr 5, 2021)

I had a brain at birth, yep, I did and I started using it at three when I started learning to play piano and dance ballet. Would have loved to play soccer, but that was not considered ladylike


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## Keesha (Apr 5, 2021)

Head games. Dont ya just love them?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 6, 2021)

Verisure said:


> At 7? Most people don't discover they have a brain until they've reached about 40 and have experienced their first divorce.


Unfortunately I started to lose brain cells before I discovered I had a brain , , now I am a lost cause


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 6, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Go on, say it. We're all friends here.
> Divorce is usually the moment you discover true freedom and when you realize that life holds unlimited choices to make. I'm not criticizing relationships or marriage because the experience you take with you after divorce makes you wiser in the next relationship .... which is part of the unlimited choices I was talking about.


Doesn’t necessarily make you wiser, some of us are slow learners.


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## Verisure (Apr 6, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Doesn’t necessarily make you wiser, some of us are slow learners.


Even a half-step forward is an improvement. You have to learn how to walk before you can run.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 6, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I attended a Catholic public school while my dad was at  New Orleans Southern Baptist Seminary between 1959-1962.


LOL what a combination..I grew up in Northern  Louisiana..small college town of Ruston..


----------



## Lara (Apr 6, 2021)

"Is _The Divine Comedy_/Dante’s _Inferno_ a biblically accurate description of Eternal Hell?"

The philosophy of the poem is a mixture of the Bible, Roman Catholicism, mythology, and medieval tradition. Where Dante draws on his knowledge of the Bible, the poem is truthful and insightful. It's no surprise that I agree with "where he draws on the other sources, the poem departs from truth".

But his work is intended to be literary, not theological. It does reflect a deep yearning to understand the mysteries of life and death.

In Eternal Hell, Dante sees man as continually working and striving for reward and relief from punishment. But the Bible tells us that heaven is a place of rest from striving, not a continuation of it...."they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’”

Believers who live and die in Christ are saved by faith alone..._The Divine Comedy_ may be of interest to Christians as a literary work, but the Bible alone is the Christians infallible guide for faith and life and is the only source of eternal truth.


----------



## Dana (Apr 6, 2021)

Lara said:


> "Is _The Divine Comedy_ / Dante’s _Inferno_ a biblically accurate description of Eternal Hell?"
> 
> The philosophy of the poem is a mixture of the Bible, Roman Catholicism, mythology, and medieval tradition. Where Dante draws on his knowledge of the Bible, the poem is truthful and insightful. It's no surprise that I agree with "where he draws on the other sources, the poem departs from truth".
> 
> ...



Lara, I am glad for you that you receive your "faith" from books. I have to say, I believe faith comes from within even before reading a book.


----------



## Lara (Apr 6, 2021)

Dana said:


> Lara, I am glad for you that you receive your "faith" from books. I have to say, I believe faith comes from within even before reading a book.


Not "books". Just one Book ....unless you mean the books of the Bible. I'm mostly about the New Testament because everything changed when Jesus was born. But we learn from history so the Old Testament is also relevant and has many of the prophesies that were fulfilled that's really cool.


----------



## Keesha (Apr 6, 2021)

I wonder what happened to peoples souls before Jesus was born. If believing in Jesus is the ‘only’ thing that saves humanity, did all those who were born before Jesus automatically go to hell?
 I’m not really expecting an answer. I’m just wondering. 

There was a time before religion became popular. I wonder how they managed to stay out of eternal hell once they died. Then again, they wouldn’t know about eternal hell because they wouldn’t have been taught about it.


----------



## Dana (Apr 6, 2021)

Lara said:


> Not "books". Just one Book ....unless you mean the books of the Bible. I'm mostly about the New Testament because everything changed when Jesus was born. But we learn from history so the Old Testament is also relevant and has many of the prophesies that were fulfilled that's really cool.


Well, the Old Testament contains more "truth"than the New Testament. What changed?  Surely it is a continuation!


----------



## Lara (Apr 6, 2021)

Whoa...that's a great question Keesha! I never thought of that before 
I'll get back to you...just in case you want my opinion 

Oh, and Dana...I have faith that it's all truth. Except where there are parables used for the purpose of making a point


----------



## Keesha (Apr 6, 2021)

Dana said:


> Lara, I am glad for you that you receive your "faith" from books. I have to say, I believe faith comes from within even before reading a book.


Totally agree. Faith, hope, discovering guidance comes from within. The universe speaks to us in all kinds of ways. Silence is golden. Learning about your own inner spirit can also be found in plenty of books. The Tae de Ching was written long before the Bible and has the same type of teachings minus the violence. Buddhism teaches about seeking inner guidance. They don’t believe or disbelieve there’s a God. They acknowledge all other religions that benefits mankind as useful and never put down any of them. There are plenty of books ( really good ones ) written about discovering faith and inner peace besides the Bible and that’s not mere opinion, it’s actual fact. Yoga , mediation, walking in nature are some other ways of being in touch with the God within. 

We aren’t all made from cookie cutters.


Lara said:


> Not "books". Just one Book ....unless you mean the books of the Bible.


----------



## Dana (Apr 6, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I wonder what happened to peoples souls before Jesus was born. If believing in Jesus is the ‘only’ thing that saves humanity, did all those who were born before Jesus automatically go to hell?
> I’m not really expecting an answer. I’m just wondering.
> 
> There was a time before religion became popular. I wonder how they managed to stay out of eternal hell once they died. Then again, they wouldn’t know about eternal hell because they wouldn’t have been taught about it.



_You don't need an answer...you have already nailed it in your post #344_


----------



## mellowyellow (Apr 6, 2021)

Well, I said I would tell you about the Catholic baptism ceremony of a 10 year old child and an adult I attended on Saturday night.
As a confirmed Presbyterian, it was first time in a Catholic church and it was heart warming.  The church was packed (probably because of Easter) and the people were so warm and welcoming, it was a lovely experience.  It wasn't a complete dunking, just a matter of leaning over a very smallish bowl and water poured over the front of the head.  The participants were each given a large candle (about 18 inches tall) with their name and date engraved on it, and a small ornament of a child praying.  There was no mention of Mary during the 2 hour ceremony.   The head priest (there were 5 priests taking part) is the most laidback person once he takes his robes off - as we would say, he's a beaut bloke


----------



## Keesha (Apr 6, 2021)

Dana said:


> _You don't need an answer...you have already nailed it in your post #344_


Ahhh thanks but I really wanted to go on & on & on with yadda, yadda, yadda.


----------



## Dana (Apr 6, 2021)

Lara said:


> Whoa...that's a great question Keesha! I never thought of that before
> I'll get back to you...just in case you want my opinion
> 
> Oh, and Dana...I have faith that it's all truth. Except where there are parables used for the purpose of making a point



_Good you are happy...I am also happy when I read my grandchildren stories written by Enid Blyton._


----------



## Shalimar (Apr 6, 2021)

Call me simplistic, perhaps, but I will leave theology to the theologians. They may ponder how many angels fit on the head of a pin, or the relative religious/political/ socio economic origins and validity  of the concept of hellfire. I want a simple, meaningful way to live my life, and for me, kindness works. This is my small candle shining in the dark, an

offering of hope to those in pain. This is a spirituality I can comprehend. Any belief system which uses  fear as a motivator to avoid endless torment for not following their religious rules is not for me.


----------



## Rosemarie (Apr 6, 2021)

Homeschoolie said:


> I am always amazed that in our modern day and age with numerous Satellites and multiple space exploration vehicles (Voyager, Cassini etc.) sending back tens of thousands of hours of photos and sensor data that anyone can think that there are all types of spirit beings and billions of people at a physical, tangible heaven or hell out there somewhere.
> 
> Nothing has been found or seen, even by the two Voyagers who went past the edge of the bubble before we could no longer receive data from them.
> 
> ...


We live in a physical dimension. The  world of spirit is on a different dimension.


----------



## Mr. Ed (Apr 7, 2021)

There are so many beliefs in world about God(s) life & living and the afterlife it is not unusual to question the validity of the one true God in association with one’s personal beliefs or worldview.

I am Christian because I grew up that way. If I grew up where Buddhism was the primary belief most likely I would believe and practice the teachings of Buddha. The same is true of other beliefs and cultural backgrounds.

When predominately white Christian missionaries invaded third-world countries to fix culturally different populations to forget tradition and live and believe as Christian missionaries taught them.

While it may seem a godly thing to do rescuing unbelievers from eternal damnation and sin when in truth missionaries helped colonize third-world countries for eventual modernization. So indeed, native inhabitants would live and believe as white Christian missionaries taught them to behave like a monkey on a string.

Personally I don’t read the Bible because God and my relationship to him is one in the same. Therefore it is not necessary for me to replenish my spirit in him as he is in me.

Faith is what brought me to God through JC, a doorway to God. I’m told it is the Holy Spirit, God’s messenger lives within me, a conduit between God and self. 

Giving one’s self to God creates a living, spiritual partnership in which you are bound together throughout eternity. Not a bad deal considering total freedom of thought and overcoming fear, anxiety and worry, unless you choose to engage in frivolous pain and discomfort. Remember, you are free to think as you choose to think.


----------



## Lewkat (Apr 7, 2021)

Dana said:


> _Quoting ohioboy: “The human body is so medically and scientifically complex how can it form from simple microbes?”
> 
> How indeed! This is how!  _
> 
> ...


Great video.


----------



## Lewkat (Apr 7, 2021)

Hell is sometimes a result of our own creation.  Other times, it is created for us.  

As for our origins, well, there are multiple theories regarding this and each has its own merit.

Something in my opinion far greater in intelligence was able to create all creatures  and it boggles the mind as to how great this is.

As for Dante, his take on it all was entertaining, but not convincing.

We are either believers, seekers or non believers.  Matters not at all.

It is what it is.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

_Why is Mary Magdalene not mentioned...after all being the wife of Jesus, she is of paramount importance. _


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## digifoss (Apr 7, 2021)

IMO Had Mary Magdalene been the wife of Jesus, she would have been mentioned


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Dana said:


> _Why is Mary Magdalene not mentioned...after all being the wife of Jesus, she is of paramount importance. _


Because Mary herself said in the Bible Luke 1:46-49
...she only wanted all generations to call her "blessed" because "it is He who is the mighty one"
...souls magnify Him
...rejoice in our Savior (savior from punishment of sins)
...for it is He who has looked over her home (and refers to herself as His servant since she served God when giving birth to Jesus)
...and she says Holy is His name (she doesn't want her name to be holy)

Luke 1:46-49

46 And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,

47  and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

48  for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.

For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;

49  for he who is mighty has done great things for me,

and holy is His name.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> . But we learn from history so the Old Testament is also relevant and has many of the prophesies that were fulfilled that's really cool.


Like what? I'm not really versed in the Bible, so what prophecies have come true?


----------



## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Mr. Ed said:


> I am Christian because I grew up that way. If I grew up where Buddhism was the primary belief most likely I would believe and practice the teachings of Buddha. The same is true of other beliefs and cultural backgrounds.


That's one of my main problems with organized religion. The vast majority of people who claim their religion is the one true religion are only believers in that religion because they were brought up in it. Had their parents been Muslim, they'd be Muslim. Had their parents been Jewish they'd be Jewish, etc.


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## Verisure (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Like what? I'm not really versed in the Bible, so what prophecies have come true?


Let me know if you find out.


----------



## Serenity4321 (Apr 7, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Well, I said I would tell you about the Catholic baptism ceremony of a 10 year old child and an adult I attended on Saturday night.
> As a confirmed Presbyterian, it was first time in a Catholic church and it was heart warming.  The church was packed (probably because of Easter) and the people were so warm and welcoming, it was a lovely experience.  It wasn't a complete dunking, just a matter of leaning over a very smallish bowl and water poured over the front of the head.  The participants were each given a large candle (about 18 inches tall) with their name and date engraved on it, and a small ornament of a child praying.  There was no mention of Mary during the 2 hour ceremony.   The head priest (there were 5 priests taking part) is the most laidback person once he takes his robes off - as we would say, he's a beaut bloke


mellowyellow..Sounds lovely. I am a nonpracticing Catholic and it has been years since I attended a Baptism...

I noticed someone mentioned dunking in conjunction with Catholic Baptisms but  I have never heard of that. I know protestants have dunkings but was not aware it occurred in any Catholic Baptism.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> That's one of my main problems with organized religion. The vast majority of people who claim their religion is the one true religion are only believers in that religion because they were brought up in it. Had their parents been Muslim, they'd be Muslim. Had their parents been Jewish they'd be Jewish, etc.


I have to agree ..I have always said there are many paths to God and I truly believe there is truth in all philosophies. Over the years I have read up on most religions and find truth in all. The only part I dislike is the claim of exclusivity and even there I wonder if that is something some need to believe... for whatever reason...


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I have to agree ..I have always said there are many paths to God and I truly believe there is truth in all philosophies. Over the years I have read up on most religions and find truth in all. The only part I dislike is the claim of exclusivity and even there I wonder if that is something some need to believe... for whatever reason...


Take Catholicism, or maybe all Christianity. I went to catholic school. We were taught you can't get into heaven if you're not baptized, original sin and all that. So now let's consider Mother Theresa. What if she were born Muslim but still lived her life in the ghettos helping people her entire life, truly saintly. She wouldn't get into heaven after that life simply because she was brought up in and believed another religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. What kind of God would do that?


----------



## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Take Catholicism, or maybe all Christianity. I went to catholic school. We were taught you can't get into heaven if you're not baptized, original sin and all that. So now let's consider Mother Theresa. What if she were born Muslim but still lived her life in the ghettos helping people her entire life, truly saintly. She wouldn't get into heaven after that life simply because she was brought up in and believed another religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. What kind of God would do that?


What kind of God would do that? 
One that humanity made up for their own reasons.  We created a God with human characteristics. ‘Enough said.


----------



## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Like what? I'm not really versed in the Bible, so what prophecies have come true?


Your question deserves an answer 2 thick volumes long. There are different types of prophecy and for different things. If you are talking about the coming of the Messiah aka Christ, there are over 300 that came true when he was born. They predicted his full lineage (geneology), his life and death while on earth, etc. I refer you to Josh McDowell who has spent his life studying and writing books on this for specifics.

If you are talking about prophesy regarding the End Times, that time has not yet come but many of the prophetic signs leading up to it have. In addition to the coming of Messiah prophecies, the Old Testament continually prophesies about events that have happened aka fulfilled prophecy. Here are 3 examples of fulfilled prophesy:
...Israel’s future into exile
...Nations that will be destroyed
...Israel’s kingdom being restored, etc. These predictions further demonstrate that we can trust the Bible as truly inspired by God.

"Regardless, we can say that _a lot_ of prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled, with some of the clearest ones about *the life and ministry of Jesus*. [As I mentioned above], the number of fulfilled messianic (Jesus-related) prophecies is over *300*. This is truly remarkable, *as Josh McDowell demonstrates in this video*. Christians, as far back as the Bible authors themselves, have rightfully stressed these fulfilled prophecies to show Jesus to be the Messiah.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Take Catholicism, or maybe all Christianity. I went to catholic school. We were taught you can't get into heaven if you're not baptized, original sin and all that. So now let's consider Mother Theresa. What if she were born Muslim but still lived her life in the ghettos helping people her entire life, truly saintly. She wouldn't get into heaven after that life simply because she was brought up in and believed another religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. What kind of God would do that?


Regarding the fact that you were taught that you have to be baptized to go to heaven...that's not in the Bible. Baptism is presented in the Bible as a choice and an act of obedience to God but not necessary for entering Heaven (or the Kingdom of God).

Regarding Mother Theresa..."what if she was Muslim and did good works" is not "what it was" so I don't dwell on the "what if's". But here's the thing...It was because her faith, a RESULT of her faith...that she did good works. It's not about an organized religion. It's about where her heart was with the Lord Jesus Christ. She was obviously filled with the Holy Spirt of God that gave her such a desire to obey Him and such a desire to "love your neighbor" and "give unto others".

Mother Theresa would never have chosen to follow the command of Jihad stated in the Koran. That's all I'll say about that.


----------



## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Dana said:


> Well, the Old Testament contains more "truth"than the New Testament. What changed?  Surely it is a continuation!


Huh? What is not true in the New Testament?

And, of course the New Testament is a continuation from the Old Testament....but the Old Testament is using the Mosaic Law and sacrifices, whereas the New Testament is is all about accepting the Messiah's gift of forgiveness of sin because He paid the sacrifice....and that changed everything!


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> mellowyellow..Sounds lovely. I am a nonpracticing Catholic and it has been years since I attended a Baptism...
> 
> I noticed someone mentioned dunking in conjunction with Catholic Baptisms but  I have never heard of that. I know protestants have dunkings but was not aware it occurred in any Catholic Baptism.


Babies are not dunked but sprinkled.  Dunking occurred when the church has a large enough spot, ours did/does.  You can chose dunk or sprinkled.  The priest and you are in the “pool” and you are bent over backwards, face under, and up you come.  Just as JC was baptized but not in a river.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Regarding the fact that you were taught that you have to be baptized to go to heaven...that's not in the Bible. Baptism is presented in the Bible as a choice and an act of obedience but not necessary for entering Heaven (or the Kingdom of God).
> 
> Regarding Mother Theresa..."what if she was Muslim and did good works" is not "what it was" so I don't dwell on the "what if's". But here's the thing...It was because her faith, a RESULT of her faith...that she did good works. It's not about an organized religion. It's about where her heart was with the Lord Jesus Christ. She was obviously filled with the Holy Spirt of God that gave her such a desire to obey Him and such a desire to "love your neighbor" and "give unto others".
> 
> Mother Theresa would never have chosen to follow the command of Jihad stated in the Koran. That's all I'll say about that.


I would add obedience to God the Father since JC was baptized.


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## RadishRose (Apr 7, 2021)




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## Serenity4321 (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Take Catholicism, or maybe all Christianity. I went to catholic school. We were taught you can't get into heaven if you're not baptized, original sin and all that. So now let's consider Mother Theresa. What if she were born Muslim but still lived her life in the ghettos helping people her entire life, truly saintly. She wouldn't get into heaven after that life simply because she was brought up in and believed another religion? Makes no sense whatsoever. What kind of God would do that?


I was taught the same  ...no baptism, no heaven but it seems that was mostly taught about unbaptized babies ..not sure if it included everyone. Babies went to purgatory first...
It made no sense to be taught that only Catholics & other Christians are saved. Are they still teaching that?? I think it was just part of the whole _control thing._


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Babies are not dunked but sprinkled.  Dunking occurred when the church has a large enough spot, ours did/does.  You can chose dunk or sprinkled.  The priest and you are in the “pool” and you are bent over backwards, face under, and up you come.  Just as JC was baptized but not in a river.


TY Aneeda....Maybe because I never went to any but baby baptisms that I didn't know about the dunking...


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Regarding the fact that you were taught that you have to be baptized to go to heaven...that's not in the Bible. Baptism is presented in the Bible as a choice and an act of obedience to God but not necessary for entering Heaven (or the Kingdom of God).
> 
> Regarding Mother Theresa..."what if she was Muslim and did good works" is not "what it was" so I don't dwell on the "what if's". But here's the thing...It was because her faith, a RESULT of her faith...that she did good works. It's not about an organized religion. It's about where her heart was with the Lord Jesus Christ. She was obviously filled with the Holy Spirt of God that gave her such a desire to obey Him and such a desire to "love your neighbor" and "give unto others".
> 
> Mother Theresa would never have chosen to follow the command of Jihad stated in the Koran. That's all I'll say about that.


I never said it was in the Bible. That's what I don't like about organized religion it's all about control.  Not Catholic? Can't get to heaven no matter how good a life you lead. That doesn't sound like something a God would tout but it sure sounds like something man would.
   As for Mother Theresa, you kind of evaded my point. I'm sure there are non Christians as a result of their faith they dedicated their lives to the poor just as much as Mother Theresa did, maybe more. But since they're not Christian "No heaven for you!"? Again, doesn't seem like something God would espouse .


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Your question deserves an answer 2 thick volumes long. There are different types of prophecy and for different things. If you are talking about the coming of the Messiah aka Christ, there are over 300 that came true when he was born. They predicted his full lineage (geneology), his life and death while on earth, etc. I refer you to Josh McDowell who has spent his life studying and writing books on this for specifics.
> 
> If you are talking about prophesy regarding the End Times, that time has not yet come but many of the prophetic signs leading up to it have. In addition to the coming of Messiah prophecies, the Old Testament continually prophesies about events that have happened aka fulfilled prophecy. Here are 3 examples of fulfilled prophesy:
> ...Israel’s future into exile
> ...


My understanding is there is no real proof Jesus even existed. There have been people caught depositing fake artifacts into Roman digs to try and prove his existence though. I'll have to look into prophecies of the Bible more.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Keesha said:


> What kind of God would do that?
> One that humanity made up for their own reasons.  We created a God with human characteristics. ‘Enough said.


I totally agree. The saying is "God created man in his image". When realistically, "Man created God in his image".


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> My understanding is there is no real proof Jesus even existed. There have been people caught depositing fake artifacts into Roman digs to try and prove his existence though. I'll have to look into prophecies of the Bible more.


It's no surprise to any of us that there will always be scammers. Beware.

"There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. We can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (_Babylonian Talmud_) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshiping Him as God (Pliny the Younger)." There are writings and artifacts a plenty.

But I think what you are really asking is "Is there proof that Jesus is who he said he was...the Messiah and Son of God?" It was easy for me to believe purely by prayerfully reading the New Testament, observing all of Creation, noticing a difference in who I was after being filled with the Holy Spirit. But my late husband wanted proof, like you, and so he studied every side of the coin at great length and became a super strong believer and very knowledgable regarding fulfilled prophecy. I think it was the chances of over 300 fulfilled prophesies occuring regarding the coming of the Messiah and His birth that finally convinced him.

God encourages us to study his Word because "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). He also says, "Blessed are they who have not seen, but believe". Many find our way through life down different paths but there is only one way to truth. Some just choose to "go with the flow and hope for the best". For me, I can just look around me, really open my eyes and see, pray, and read God's Word.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> I never said it was in the Bible. That's what I don't like about organized religion it's all about control.  Not Catholic? Can't get to heaven no matter how good a life you lead. That doesn't sound like something a God would tout but it sure sounds like something man would.
> As for Mother Theresa, you kind of evaded my point. I'm sure there are non Christians as a result of their faith they dedicated their lives to the poor just as much as Mother Theresa did, maybe more. But since they're not Christian "No heaven for you!"? Again, doesn't seem like something God would espouse .


I want to “way in” on this.

Devout Christians are like any ”devout” follower of anything, they can not imagine other religions, other sports teams, actors could succeed.  In truth in the Bible it says “there are many paths to heaven” or hell  although not eternal hell, IMO.

The Pope, I believe it is the current one, but I can not remember; said “*everyone goes to heaven”-everyone.*  Yes, I believe this, everyone goes, eventually, who believes there is a heaven.  You can not go to someplace you do not believe exsist.

I also believe it has nothing to do “with how good a life you lead”.  We are judged on our works, our deeds, our forgiveness to others and ourselves, and repentance of our sins.  Plus other stuff, there is always other stuff.  .


Lara said:


> It's no surprise to any of us that there will always be scammers. Beware.
> 
> "There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. We can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (_Babylonian Talmud_) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshiping Him as God (Pliny the Younger)." There are writings and artifacts a plenty.
> 
> ...


My disabled sons are Catholic, they also believe in JC and God.  Neither can read and they certainly can’t read the Bible or understand it.  But they are believers.  No Bible is necessary, and their place in Heaven is assured.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Devout Christians are like any ”devout” follower of anything, they can not imagine other religions, other sports teams, actors could succeed.  In truth in the Bible it says “there are many paths to heaven” or hell


I cherry-picked these 2 sentences from your post because you said, "The Bible says, there are many paths to Heaven"
Is the Catholic Bible different? 

My KJV Holy Bible doesn't say that. It says there is only One Way to Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6


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## digifoss (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> ...
> The Pope, I believe it is the current one, but I can not remember; said “*everyone goes to heaven”-everyone.*  Yes, I believe this, everyone goes, eventually, ...



I do somewhat agree with this part of what you said Aneeda72, although my reason has nothing to do with the Pope, and I am not Catholic, but...

2 Peter 3:9
_The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, *not willing that any should perish*, but that all should come to repentance._

There are several explanations for the meaning of this verse, I've considered them all, but it's my opinion and belief, that the part of this verse in red letters, is saying that there will eventually be *another* opportunity, or opportunities, besides now, for ALL, that's everyone, to be saved.  That would be more like the loving God that I know, like a parent that NEVER gives up on any of their children, no matter how far they stray.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I cherry-picked these 2 sentences from your post because you said, "The Bible says, there are many paths to Heaven"
> Is the Catholic Bible different?
> 
> My KJV Holy Bible doesn't say that. It says there is only One Way to Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6


I said HEAVEN, I said nothing about being in the presence of God the Father. @Lara


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I cherry-picked these 2 sentences from your post because you said, "The Bible says, there are many paths to Heaven"
> Is the Catholic Bible different?
> 
> My KJV Holy Bible doesn't say that. It says there is only One Way to Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6


As I understand it, the Bible’s are different but I’ve not read the Catholic version


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I cherry-picked these 2 sentences from your post because you said, "The Bible says, there are many paths to Heaven"
> Is the Catholic Bible different?
> 
> My KJV Holy Bible doesn't say that. It says there is only One Way to Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6


So once again, what about all the humans born before Jesus Christ? If the only way to the Father is through him then why were they even born in the first place ? ;(considering they were doomed for eternal hell?)

What about tribes of people who have never seen or heard anything about the  Bible or Jesus Christ? Do they automatically go to hell?

There had to have been some law and order before Jesus was born. Did all the universal laws suddenly stop or change because Jesus was born?


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Because Mary herself said in the Bible Luke 1:46-49
> ...she only wanted all generations to call her "blessed" because "it is He who is the mighty one"
> ...souls magnify Him
> ...rejoice in our Savior (savior from punishment of sins)
> ...


​​


Lara said:


> Because Mary herself said in the Bible Luke 1:46-49
> ...she only wanted all generations to call her "blessed" because "it is He who is the mighty one"
> ...souls magnify Him
> ...rejoice in our Savior (savior from punishment of sins)
> ...


*Mary could not have said that herself. The New Testament was not even written in her time. The methuselahs who wrote the books of the bible downplayed her importance by claiming she was, a ruined woman who repented and was saved by Christ’s teachings. She had no voice…no recording was ever made of anything she said.*​To add insult to injury, Luke, was not an eyewitness of any of the events of Jesus’s life…he relied on heresay.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Huh? What is not true in the New Testament?
> 
> And, of course the New Testament is a continuation from the Old Testament....but the Old Testament is using the Mosaic Law and sacrifices, whereas the New Testament is is all about accepting the Messiah's gift of forgiveness of sin because He paid the sacrifice....and that changed everything!



_The New Testament does not give "true"accounts of events of the time. What's more it was written by so many scribes who added their own finishing touches, similar to the Daily Mail of today.  

It is not even an historical book because, it contains no real historical facts, which can be verified and which is necessary for it to be called such._


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> It's no surprise to any of us that there will always be scammers. Beware.
> 
> "There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. We can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (_Babylonian Talmud_) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshiping Him as God (Pliny the Younger)." There are writings and artifacts a plenty.
> 
> ...



_I truly believe Jesus existed, on that I agree with you.  However, he was an ordinary man not part of a Trinity as the scribes would have people believe.

Jesus  never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church* three hundred years *after the death of Jesus; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . ._


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I cherry-picked these 2 sentences from your post because you said, "The Bible says, there are many paths to Heaven"
> Is the Catholic Bible different?
> 
> My KJV Holy Bible doesn't say that. It says there is only One Way to Heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6



_Did you know this Lara I suspect not. Analogies have been drawn between* Buddhism* and* Christianity,* and* Buddhism* may have influenced Christianity.   Buddhist missionaries were sent by Emperor Ashoka of India to Syria, Egypt and Greece beginning in 250 BCE and may have helped prepare for the ethics of Christ._


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## garyt1957 (Apr 7, 2021)

Dana said:


> _I truly believe Jesus existed, on that I agree with you.  However, he was an ordinary man not part of a Trinity as the scribes would have people believe.
> 
> Jesus  never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church* three hundred years *after the death of Jesus; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . ._


Actually, isn't the whole story of Jesus almost word for word taken from an old pagan belief? I'm pretty sure I read that and why I'm not very convinced that Jesus ever existed.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

_My opinion...Jesus existed...I love the man he was. The people who wrote about him, wrote all the things he would not have wanted if he had a chance to approve.

The books of the Bible contain some wise words, but it also contains some horrific events and it is sad many in this century are still hanging on to these ideas. _


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Actually, isn't the whole story of Jesus almost word for word taken from an old pagan belief? I'm pretty sure I read that and why I'm not very convinced that Jesus ever existed.


_ I believe Jesus existed. I believe there is a Creator._


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## officerripley (Apr 7, 2021)

I heard a couple years ago, that quite a few historians believe that Jesus is probably based on 3 or 4 radicals who were active in Israel at the time--a time of much political dissent--thus the difference in things he's supposed to have said/done, for instance, "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (in other words, pay your taxes already) as opposed to being enraged by the money changers in the temple; sometimes he appeared to practice Judaism but there was that sermon where he kept saying "...it is written that [whatever], but *I* say unto you...". So different guys who were less or more radical in their problems with Rome and (sometimes with established Judaism) and the story morphed over the years into being one person.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> I said HEAVEN, I said nothing about being in the presence of God the Father. @Lara


The Bible teaches that God reigns over the nations from His holy throne in heaven (Psalm 47:8; Isaiah 6:1, 66:1; Hebrews 4:16). Even though we know that God’s presence is in some sense uniquely in heaven, the teachings of Scripture also make it clear that God is omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). From the beginning of Scripture, we see the presence of God hovering over the earth, even when it was still formless and empty (Genesis 1:2). God filled the world with His creation, and His presence and glory continue to inhabit the whole earth (Numbers 14:21). There are many examples throughout Scripture of God’s presence moving on the earth, interacting with His creation (Genesis 3:8; Deuteronomy 23:14; Exodus 3:2; 1 Kings 19:11-18; Luke 1:35; Acts 16:7). Hebrews 4:13 says, “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.” Jeremiah 23:24 exclaims, “‘Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?’ declares the Lord. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ declares the Lord.” Psalm 139 is an amazing study in God’s omnipresence.

*Where is God?*
If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, God is with you, beside you, above you, and inside you. God’s presence and watchful care never leave you. If you are not a believer in Jesus Christ, God is right in front of you, inviting you, drawing you, offering you the love, mercy, and grace that He longs to give you.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Keesha said:


> So once again, what about all the humans born before Jesus Christ? If the only way to the Father is through him then why were they even born in the first place ? ;(considering they were doomed for eternal hell?)
> 
> What about tribes of people who have never seen or heard anything about the  Bible or Jesus Christ? Do they automatically go to hell?
> 
> There had to have been some law and order before Jesus was born. Did all the universal laws suddenly stop or change because Jesus was born?


According to the Old Testament...All humans before Christ went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was _Sheol_, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

Tribes of people who have never heard the Gospel of Christ will automatically go to Heaven according to the Bible.

The Mosaic Law ruled the Old Testament where one had to sacrifice animals and atone for their sins on their own. Yes, that completely changed in the New Testament. Christ paid for the punishment of our sins and believers may have natural consequences for their sins but no punishment and free entry into Heaven without working our way in.


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## officerripley (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> According to the Old Testament...All humans before Christ went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was _Sheol_, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” _*The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous*_ (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).
> 
> Tribes of people who have never heard the Gospel of Christ will automatically go to Heaven according to the Bible.
> 
> The Mosaic Law ruled the Old Testament where one had to sacrifice animals and atone for their sins on their own. Yes, that completely changed in the New Testament. Christ paid for the punishment of our sins and believers may have natural consequences for their sins but no punishment and free entry into Heaven without working our way in.


So the poor dead righteous have to spend eternity with the wicked?!! What's wrong with this picture? (To quote Nicolas Cage's character in _Con-Air_, "I would say a lot.")


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

digifoss said:


> 2 Peter 3:9
> _The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, *not willing that any should perish*, but that all should come to repentance._
> 
> There are several explanations for the meaning of this verse, I've considered them all, but it's my opinion and belief, that the part of this verse in red letters, is saying that there will eventually be *another* opportunity, or opportunities, besides now, for ALL, that's everyone, to be saved.  That would be more like the loving God that I know, like a parent that NEVER gives up on any of their children, no matter how far they stray.


I'm not telling you how to believe but I'm sharing what I know about second chances after death as stated in the Bible. It's true that the Lord wants no one to perish so the choice to believe is open to everyone no matter how many sins or how serious the sins one has. But the choice must be made before death. We have chances everyday of our lives, every moment to make that choice and be saved. But God wants us to come by faith and trust in Him while we're here. 

Hebrews 9:27 says we die once and after that is death...meaning physical and spiritual death....then judgement. Purgatory has no Biblical basis. We must trust in Him in this life.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> The Bible teaches that God reigns over the nations from His holy throne in heaven (Psalm 47:8; Isaiah 6:1, 66:1; Hebrews 4:16). Even though we know that God’s presence is in some sense uniquely in heaven, the teachings of Scripture also make it clear that God is omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time). From the beginning of Scripture, we see the presence of God hovering over the earth, even when it was still formless and empty (Genesis 1:2). God filled the world with His creation, and His presence and glory continue to inhabit the whole earth (Numbers 14:21). There are many examples throughout Scripture of God’s presence moving on the earth, interacting with His creation (Genesis 3:8; Deuteronomy 23:14; Exodus 3:2; 1 Kings 19:11-18; Luke 1:35; Acts 16:7). Hebrews 4:13 says, “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.” Jeremiah 23:24 exclaims, “‘Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?’ declares the Lord. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ declares the Lord.” Psalm 139 is an amazing study in God’s omnipresence.
> 
> *Where is God?*
> If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, God is with you, beside you, above you, and inside you. God’s presence and watchful care never leave you. If you are not a believer in Jesus Christ, God is right in front of you, inviting you, drawing you, offering you the love, mercy, and grace that He longs to give you.


But that is not how people perceive heaven or God the Father.  JC also said something to the effect that their are many houses in my Father’s realm.  A very famous preacher said he was not afraid of death because when he died he would sit at the right hand of God.  The arrogance of this man was overwhelming.

It is arrogant, for anyone, to assume they will sit in God’s presence, let alone at his right hand.  It is arrogant, IMO, of any individual to assume they  will go to heaven when they have not been judged.  

The Holy Spirit is with us, JC said wherever 3 gather in my name I am there, indicating he is only present when 3 gather.  God the Father reigns in heaven.  Our opinions differ on this.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

officerripley said:


> So the poor dead righteous have to spend eternity with the wicked?!! What's wrong with this picture? (To quote Nicolas Cage's character in _Con-Air_, "I would say a lot.")


Calm down . There is more but a lot and complicated. That's why I didn't go into it.
If you're interested in the complete answer then click on this link. It's not that long but just too long for a forum post:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html

I'm not an expert on the Old Testament. I'm much more familiar with the New Testament. So that's why I'm giving you this link that I fully trust.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I'm not telling you how to believe but I'm sharing what I know about second chances after death as stated in the Bible. It's true that the Lord wants no one to perish so the choice to believe is open to everyone no matter how many sins or how serious the sins one has. But the choice must be made before death. We have chances everyday of our lives, every moment to make that choice and be saved. But God wants us to come by faith and trust in Him while we're here.
> 
> Hebrews 9:27 says we die once and after that is death...meaning physical and spiritual death....then judgement. Purgatory has no Biblical basis. We must trust in Him in this life.


I believe @Lara you rely too much on the Bible, a history written by old men.  There are many books missing from the Bible as the early Catholic Church burned them.  There are other books, found and not widely accepted.

In point of fact,  neither you nor those who wrote the Bible, or anyone in the world can consign people who do not believe in JC to hell if they believe in God the Father.  JC was speaking to the Jewish people, his chosen people.  We have no way of knowing which of his words were for the Jewish people alone.

Most Jews of the time did not believe JC was the son of God.  Therefore JC, might have been saying to the Jewish people, and only the Jewish people, that they needed to believe in him to obtain heaven.  We simply do not know.

We do know that JC was not speaking to Christians as there were NO Christians until after he died.  We need to keep that in mind, IMO.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

officerripley said:


> I heard a couple years ago, that quite a few historians believe that Jesus is probably based on 3 or 4 radicals who were active in Israel at the time--a time of much political dissent--thus the difference in things he's supposed to have said/done, for instance, "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (in other words, pay your taxes already) as opposed to being enraged by the money changers in the temple; sometimes he appeared to practice Judaism but there was that sermon where he kept saying "...it is written that [whatever], but *I* say unto you...". So different guys who were less or more radical in their problems with Rome and (sometimes with established Judaism) and the story morphed over the years into being one person.


_Jesus was Jewish, all his family were Jewish, so therefore his teaching would have been based on Mosaic law. You could call him a "radical" of his time..but...a good radical._


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda, as I told you before, I don't debate with Catholics as your minds are made up and Catholics don't use my Bible. I do.
We're just miles apart.

A lot of posts have been directed towards me while I was out so I'm sorry if I missed anyone. Also, I'm not trying to change anyones mind so please keep that in mind. I'm just answering questions according to what I know from my Bible.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

_During his lifetime, Jesus  didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples called him God....and Lara the words "I am the way"  can be interpreted in many ways.

I suggest you may want to put aside those Books for a minute and have a look at what is available on the internet about the Dead Sea Scrolls._


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Aneeda, as I told you before, I don't debate with Catholics as your minds are made up and Catholics don't use the Bible. I do.
> We're just miles apart.


_*You are wrong to say that. Catholics are not the only ones who have made up minds.*_


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Aneeda, as I told you before, I don't debate with Catholics as your minds are made up and Catholics don't use the Bible. I do.
> We're just miles apart.


Catholics do use the Bible, since you are not Catholic you have no ideal what Catholics do and don’t do, as individuals or in a group.  Btw, everyone has their minds made up about these issues, not just Catholics.

@ Lara, As I told you before this is not a debate, it’s a discussion.

Yes, we are miles apart, but I have an open mind.  I do not have a narrow vision of heaven and hell and how we get there.  I do not have a self righteous arrogant attitude that judges other people of other faiths.  I, actually, will talk to anyone about anything.  I believe that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Dana...I didn't say nor suggest that Catholics are the only ones that have made up their minds.
Don't put words in my mouth please. So far this thread has been amazingly friendly and kind.
It's been the first online discussion of a religious topic I have ever experienced that has been respectful to all.
So let's not say to anyone "You are wrong". Let's address the post and not the poster


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

I grew up with many Catholic friends and now have Catholic relatives and they definitely use the Bible.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> Dana...I didn't say nor suggest that Catholics are the only ones that have made up their minds.
> Don't put words in my mouth please. So far this thread has been amazingly animosity-free.
> It's been the first online discussion of a religious topic I have ever experienced that has been respectful to all.
> So let's not say to anyone "You are wrong".


_You don't have to say something in so many words Lara for people to deduce exactly what you  mean. I believe you are wrong in your suggestion about Catholics, but if it will make you happy, I shall change that to incorrect._


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> As I understand it, the Bible’s are different but I’ve not read the Catholic version


@Keesha  ...This is what Aneeda said about Catholic Bibles. I don't know a thing about their Bible.


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> @Keesha  ...This is what Aneeda said about Catholic Bibles. I don't know a thing about their Bible.


I have no idea at all Lara. If there are many different versions of the Bible then maybe there’s more versions of Jesus Christ as well and if believing in him and following his word grants mortals into the gates of heaven, which version of the Bible and which version of Jesus are they talking about? See how this gets very confusing?
I don’t think God made believing so complicated.


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## Dana (Apr 7, 2021)

The very fact that Christian Bibles differ is because they are *not* historically correct. If they were, all the writings would be in unison with each other. 

The Buddist philosophy is the same in every text. The Koran is the same and no changes made. The Indian Shruti remains unchanged. The Jewish Bible is the same


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

I agree, Keesha. God is not the author of confusion.
There are no contradictions in the Bible.


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> I agree, Keesha. God is not the author of confusion.
> There are no contradictions in the Bible.


Hahahaha. Oh goodness Lara. I’m sorry but I am going to respectfully disagree with you and hugely so. The number of times I’ve tried reading the entire Bible is staggering and the reason why I stop every time is that it’s so filled with contradictions.

Still love you though


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

You have to read it in context and sometimes cross reference. But I understand that it takes perseverance. When I was a new Christian my pastor had a gift of discernment and I would go to him when I thought there was a contradiction in the Bible. He knew right away. Then my husband grew in his faith and also had that gift of discernment. I miss him...*sniff*

Btw Keesha...love your "peace-sign" avatar. 
Makes me feel like whatever you post is said in peace  
You could tell me I look like a Baboon and I'd be okay with it


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## Keesha (Apr 7, 2021)

Lara said:


> You have to read it in context and sometimes cross reference. But I understand that it takes perseverance. When I was a new Christian my pastor had a gift of discernment and I would go to him when I thought there was a contradiction in the Bible. He knew right away. Then my husband grew in his faith and also had that gift of discernment. I miss him...*sniff*
> 
> Btw Keesha...love your "peace-sign" avatar. Makes me feel like whatever you post is said in peace  You could tell me I look like a Baboon and I'd be okay with it


That’s great that you had help with all the contradictions to help sort them out. Once I find out too many then my sense of logic over rides my blind faith.

Here are some MAJOR contradictions from the Bible.

I’d like to mention that I’m not turning this conversation into a debate. I’m actually trying to understand everyone’s points of view as I find the subject fascinating.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Keesha...I looked at your link called "Secular Web".
So I picked one and I see the problem. They have taken it out of context and added some deceptive wording.

"Secular Web" says:
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

The Bible does Not say "same time" in Genesis 1:26-27...it just says they were created.
Then Secular Web skips over Genesis 2:4 where it says "This is the account of creation" which is announcing..."And now, for the details"

The details that begin in Genesis 2:7 says in detail Adam and Eve were created separately

That's just one example. But do you see what I mean? One has to read it themselves and not from a Secular site. Then it has to be read in context. You can pick another one from your list and I'll be glad to explain it.


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## Lara (Apr 7, 2021)

Keesha...Beware....this whole "Secular Web" is is totally deceptive. I picked another one from Secular Web. They completely used their own words that had nothing to do with what the Scripture verse said:

Secular Web says:
1TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners.
1JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin.

Bible says:
1 Timothy 1:15...yes, this verse is correct. But not the next one! It's talking about people who sin the same sin over and over.
1 John 3:8-10 says :
8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers[b] does not belong to God.

Wow! Look closely at what I've underlined. And btw, I'm a child of God and I sin. And my sins are not of the devil. The devil may tempt me but my "sin is of the flesh"...my own choice.

These were too easy lol. I welcome any contradictions anyone can find in the Bible and I will address them...but not from Secular Web. They themselves are from the devil and I would steer clear. In fact I won't go back. That's a scary place.


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## Dana (Apr 8, 2021)

Scholars agree there are *144* contradictions in the Bible. An example and a link to a few:

_No one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12)_.

_No man has seen or can see [God] (1 Timothy 6:16)._

But Adam and Eve saw God. So did Abraham and Moses:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2018/10/top-20-most-damning-bible-contradictions/

_*and more here:*_

https://thoughtcatalog.com/jim-goad/2014/05/30-pairs-of-bible-verses-that-contradict-one-another/


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## Lara (Apr 8, 2021)

Dana said:


> Scholars agree there are *144* contradictions in the Bible. An example and a link to a few:
> 
> _No one has ever seen God (1 John 4:12)_.
> 
> ...



Dana, you said in your post that Scholars" Say:
1 John 4:12....No one has ever seen God (your link from "most damning bible contradictions")

When you Google "most damning bible contradictions" then you are not getting truth like you will find in the Bible.

With that said, God can be “seen” and many people have “seen” God. At the same time, no one has ever seen God revealed in all His glory. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would die. Therefore, God veils Himself and appears in forms in which we can “see” Him...like an angel or bright light. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God, but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20).

TRUE PERSONAL STORY:  My son at the age of 2 had a near death experience at Childrens Hospital in DC. At the age of 4 he was able to communicate it with me He pointed at a high mountaintop and said, "I've been up there". At first I told him he hadn't but he insisted. I said, was anyone else up there? He said yes, someone standing next to me. I asked him what this "someone" looked like. He said, I don't know because he was next to me and it was such a bright light I couldn't tell. He "saw" God but veiled...not totally revealed.


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## Dana (Apr 8, 2021)

..Lara, I respectfully request that you do not reply to my posts or attempt to analyse them, you are not in any intellectual position to do so. Since you did not create the thread, you are under no obligation to do so … please ignore me.

If you were open minded and able to absorb different interpretations of the Christian Bible then I would welcome your input. However, nothing you have written so far provides evidence of someone with any original thought and who relies too heavily on a set of books written over 2000 years ago. I have written a thesis on the topic of religions around the world, so nothing you can say has any value for me. Cheerio.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

Later on I’d be happy to personally pick out some of the contradictions in the Bible  but I’m currently getting ready for a big move so just don’t have the time to look them up right now.  Maybe once we start travelling I will look those up for you Lara. There really are a lot of them.

I’ve had about 5 of those experiences where my body showed no vital signs yet my consciousness was in complete peace with unconditional love. That purée white light is what I refer to God consciousness which is always available to us when we acknowledge it.

Note: I do not consider these near death experiences. It wasn’t a close call. I was dead. If I wasn’t dead I wouldn’t have experienced this and no amount of anyone convincing me otherwise will change my mind.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

Lara..... please don’t attempt to tell me there’s no such thing as feeling God in its pure form. Not only was there unconditional love but unlimited access to knowledge since there’s no conscious barrier between other entities. It becomes all one.

I accept that you have your own beliefs which I’m perfectly ok with. You have every right to experience God however you wish BUT please don’t tell me that my experiences can’t be correct. They are MY experiences, not yours or anyone else’s. I know what I went through and how I felt about it.

note: if we meet our creator before our time we are sent back. Many people throughout the world have experienced this and lived to talk about it. Call us ALL crazy, I don’t have a problem with that either.


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## Lara (Apr 8, 2021)

Dana said:


> ..Lara, I respectfully request that you do not reply to my posts or attempt to analyse them, you are not in any intellectual position to do so. Since you did not create the thread, you are under no obligation to do so … please ignore me.
> 
> If you were open minded and able to absorb different interpretations of the Christian Bible then I would welcome your input. However, nothing you have written so far provides evidence of someone with any original thought and who relies too heavily on a set of books written over 2000 years ago. I have written a thesis on the topic of religions around the world, so nothing you can say has any value for me. Cheerio.



Dana, it's discrimination and against the law to deny me my right to religious expression and try to silence me. You are welcome to put me on ignore if you wish. Btw, I always provide evidence. Look for the Bible verses posted...usually in Blue but not always. I know you won't lol.

This thread had 5,000 views and over 400 posts...and, remarkably, no one has been mean or disrespectful to anyone until you. But I know how you treated Gary so I'm on high alert lol


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## Dana (Apr 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> Dana, it's discrimination and against the law to deny me my right to religious expression and try to silence me. You are welcome to put me on ignore if you wish. Btw, I always provide evidence. Look for the Bible verses posted...usually in Blue but not always. I know you won't lol.
> 
> This thread had 5,000 views and over 400 posts...and, remarkably, no one has been mean or disrespectful to anyone until you. But I know how you treated Gary so I'm on high alert lol



_You are not being  "denied" anything...however your post is just another example of more nonsense.*..so to keep the peace I am going to put you on ignore.*

You have the rather dubious honour of being  the only person I have put on "ignore" ..._


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## Lara (Apr 8, 2021)

Keesha said:


> Lara..... please don’t attempt to tell me there’s no such thing as feeling God in its pure form. Not only was there unconditional love but unlimited access to knowledge since there’s no conscious barrier between other entities. It becomes all one.
> 
> I accept that you have your own beliefs which I’m perfectly ok with. You have every right to experience God however you wish BUT please don’t tell me that my experiences can’t be correct. They are MY experiences, not yours or anyone else’s. I know what I went through and how I felt about it.
> 
> note: if we meet our creator before our time we are sent back. Many people throughout the world have experienced this and lived to talk about it. Call us ALL crazy, I don’t have a problem with that either.


I never said any such thing Keesha. I never "attempted to tell you there's no such thing as Feeling God". I said no one has ever SEEN God in all his glory. In fact I even shared my son's true life experience of "feeling God" in my post 415. And why would I ever call you crazy for having a different belief? I'm not a monster. Why are you and Dana misunderstanding me? I'm so clear in my post.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> I never said any such thing Keesha. I never "attempted to tell you there's no such thing as Feeling God". I did say no one has ever SEEN God in all his glory. In fact I even shared my son's true life experience of "feeling God" in my post 415. And why would I ever call you crazy for having a different belief? I'm not a monster. Why are you and Dana misunderstanding me? I'm so clear in my post.


What I find unfair about your approach to God is that any experiences or opinions others have, you immediately compare them with a book written thousands of years ago. It becomes more of a dictatorship instead of a conversation. It’s  like you have all of the RIGHT answers and the rest of us just don’t know because we don’t know the Bible like you do. The Bible isn’t the only book written about the energy within us and all around us. There are many books out there but even more important than that; people have profound experiences with our creator everyday by going out and experiencing life

Most of the people that I know who resort to the Bible are very closed minded. If you have a mind that isn’t open to any other possibilities of explanation to life’s mysteries , then you are cutting out other valuable sources of teachable material.

God is in our hearts. God is in our life experiences. God loves us ALL equally no matter what we do. Perfect love casts out all fear and if God is perfect love he has no reason to judge us. Judging comes from believing we are separate and we aren’t. We just think we are. We ourselves are the ones who judge but we are human and that’s what we do.

I’m enjoying this conversation. It’s great that so many people have been able to express their opinions without the thread being shut down. 
We are all unique human beings. We look differently, we think differently, we eat differently, 
we use our six senses differently, we love differently etc....

The God I speak of didn’t write a manual for ALL of us in order to understand him/ her/ it. If God is in everything then that everything speaks to us individually if we are willing and open to know that our consciousness is all connected and can be used to enhance our lives. This is how I view God. There’s no fear, there’s no shame or guilt; just pure unconditional love. Nature is a miraculous thing. Maybe it’s because we don’t know much about how it works but the great thing is, we don’t have to. We can simply be in awe of it. Precious moments. That’s where I find God. 

Note: This is my opinion only. I respect your right to think differently but please respect my right to believe how I wish to.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> Dana, it's discrimination and against the law to deny me my right to religious expression and try to silence me. You are welcome to put me on ignore if you wish. Btw, I always provide evidence. Look for the Bible verses posted...usually in Blue but not always. I know you won't lol.
> 
> This thread had 5,000 views and over 400 posts...and, remarkably, no one has been mean or disrespectful to anyone until you. But I know how you treated Gary so I'm on high alert lol


Oh dear me, @Dana, so glad I was not the first to bring some things up.  @Lara *no, no one is discriminating against anyone but YOU, as in “I do not debate with Catholics“, , it is clear, from your writings, that you discriminate AGAINST Catholics and have offended many people on the forum by your words.*

I am not offended, but then while I am Catholic, I am not a “defender of the faith“ as I believe faith needs no defense and we are all entitled to our individual beliefs, including you.  But unfortunately we do not know what your beliefs are, as you just spout verses from the Bible.  

Also, you refuse to say what religion you are, such knowledge might give us insight into your views.  Are you with a main stream religion or a cult?  Are you a devout Bible thumping revival attending main stream Southern Baptist Christian, like my grandma was, or a fanatic?  Inquiring minds want to know.

*No one wants to silence you, you have found a platform, you go girl.  , five thousand views .  *I did not know people cared about views.  The only disrespectful person in the thread is yourself, IMO.  But, as I have said before, continue onward.  Eventually this will get boring and people will move on as they have on other threads, or it will get locked.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 8, 2021)

Dana said:


> _You are not being  "denied" anything...however your post is just another example of more nonsense.*..so to keep the peace I am going to put you on ignore.*
> 
> You have the rather dubious honour of being  the only person I have put on "ignore" ..._


@Dana While I have someone on this thread on permanent ignore for their remarks towards my sons, I don’t think you should have Lara on ignore.  I appreciate your answers to her.  I am no Bible scholar and won’t become one. You add a great deal to this discussion.  I know you are becoming frustrated.  I hope you will reconsider your decision.


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## garyt1957 (Apr 8, 2021)

Keesha said:


> I grew up with many Catholic friends and now have Catholic relatives and they definitely use the Bible.


I will say, I went to Catholic school for 8 years and had "religion" class daily and we never cracked a bible. We had a religion text book and I'm sure we discussed some of the writings , but I never saw a bible.


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## StarSong (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> One time on the show The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Amy were discussing church and Amy said something that I've always thought about.  Sheldon said that his mother made him go to church when he was a kid, and she said (paraphrasing here a little), "I understand the concept of a deity, I just don't understand one that takes attendance."  I never understood why church was mandatory when God is supposed to be everywhere.  What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


Or why He needs so much money.  Or why Christian preachers who tout the life of a man who lived so simply can unashamedly ensconce themselves in mega mansions, jet around in private planes, and enjoy the lifestyles of kings at the expense of congregants who scrape to pay for their food and medicine.    

Hell? Don't believe in it. 
Here's the thing. I'm personally capable of far less forgiveness than an all-loving, all-powerful omnipotent being, that's a given. That said, there is nothing, nothing, nothing that my children (or anyone else) could do to me that would make me so thirsty for revenge that I'd punish them for all eternity. Or even turn aside from them for eternity. (Not even Hitler.) If I'm capable of that, how much more forgiving must He be?

Also, I don't even have a clear understanding of how every experience has affected my own life, never mind anyone else's. How much more understanding of the nuances of our experiences combined with our DNA must our Creator be? 

Finally, I've never bought into the idea of a "loving" but highly vengeful God who is so insecure about whether or not people properly believe in Him that He would take permanent offense to a slight. Also never understood the point of sacrifices or whipping boys (whether animals or human) that take the punishment for another, somehow wiping clean the slate of the actual transgressors. 

All of that said, I believe most of what is attributed to having been said by Jesus Himself (not Paul) are excellent words to live by and worthy of our consideration.


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## caroln (Apr 8, 2021)

Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember, but when I woke and for several days afterward, I had this all encompassing feeling of peace.  Nothing made me annoyed or impatient and I felt like I was smiling inside all the time.  I never forgot that dream.  Was Jesus communicating with me?


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## Lara (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> One time on the show The Big Bang Theory, Sheldon and Amy were discussing church and Amy said something that I've always thought about.  Sheldon said that his mother made him go to church when he was a kid, and she said (paraphrasing here a little), "I understand the concept of a deity, I just don't understand one that takes attendance."  I never understood why church was mandatory when God is supposed to be everywhere.  What is the purpose of people meeting in one building once a week?


I missed this @caroln ,church is not mandatory. It's a place God would like us to go so we can fellowship with other Christians and receive the blessing of friendships, family like "brothers and sisters in Christ", helping and supporting one another, and studying the Bible with like-minded people. I haven't attended church in years and I miss what a blessing it is. I'll be looking for one soon.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember, but when I woke and for several days afterward, I had this all encompassing feeling of peace.  Nothing made me annoyed or impatient and I felt like I was smiling inside all the time.  I never forgot that dream.  Was Jesus communicating with me?


No not JC, IMO, But the Holy Spirit or your guardian angel, perhaps.  I have felt that all embracing feeling of peace one time when I visited my great grandmother’s grave.  As I have read, this is somewhat common for people finding an older relative’s grave for the first time.

But, because of the Trinity, could it have been JC, maybe “everything is possible with God”.  As to what he said to you, hmm, “slow down and smell the roses“-perhaps.  Only you and JC know if it was HIM, believe what you want or need to believe.  As some have said, it can be neither proved or disproved.


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## Lara (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember, but when I woke and for several days afterward, I had this all encompassing feeling of peace.  Nothing made me annoyed or impatient and I felt like I was smiling inside all the time.  I never forgot that dream.  Was Jesus communicating with me?


Wow caroln...I believe you were filled with God's Holy Spirit because it is scriptural:

Philippians 6-7  "Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, shall guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus."


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## Sunny (Apr 8, 2021)

Keesha said:


> My husband, who knows far more about history & religion , than I ever would , says that people first started attending a once a week meeting because the Bible was only written in Hewbrew. The common person would need it translated which was the main reason they met. This then become tradition and later became a time to collect offerings or donations towards the service. Hearing these types of services seemed to help people cope, mentality, physically and spiritually.


Keesha, Hewbrew sounds like a good name for a beer.


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember, but when I woke and for several days afterward, I had this all encompassing feeling of peace.  Nothing made me annoyed or impatient and I felt like I was smiling inside all the time.  I never forgot that dream.  Was Jesus communicating with me?


I think you yourself can answer this question much better than anyone else could.  IMO if you feel peace from your experience that is what you should focus on. Sounds like you had a beautiful experience. I say enjoy the memory


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## garyt1957 (Apr 8, 2021)

caroln said:


> Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember,


 Was it  "Pass me the wine"?


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> @Keesha  ...This is what Aneeda said about Catholic Bibles. I don't know a thing about their Bible.


And you should @Lara inform yourself because you should be reading the Catholic version of the Bible.  I goggled to find out the difference between the two, something you could have done and didn’t.  In fact, I believe you made a comment to someone else on this thread about how they could have or should have googled the answer.  Oh, well.

Anyway the Catholic Bible contains more original books of the Old Testament then the King James Version or modern version of the Bible.  Christians, but non Catholics, removed many of the books/scrolls when the Bible was put together.  In addition the Catholic Bible did not change the original Jewish version of the Old Testament.

There were also changes made to the New Testament as well.  Remember the Bible was never a book originally.  It was scrolls.  The scrolls were collected and put together in a book called the Bible.  As I remember some of the scrolls that went against Catholic doctrine were burned, but I could be mistaken, it could have been the early non-Catholic religions that burned those scrolls.

Of course, the Dead Sea Scrolls are not included in the King James Version of the Bible since they are a fairly recent find, although I don’t remember the date, ‘60’s or 70’s maybe?  Anyway, @Lara you can google this information.  I did this for you.  I am not that interested as I believe the Bible, as I have said, is a God inspired history book.


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## Keesha (Apr 8, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> @Dana While I have someone on this thread on permanent ignore for their remarks towards my sons, I don’t think you should have Lara on ignore.  I appreciate your answers to her.  I am no Bible scholar and won’t become one. You add a great deal to this discussion.  I know you are becoming frustrated.  I hope you will reconsider your decision.


You have me on ignore because I made fun of myself ( which I do often ) and you took the statement personally and decided I was making fun of your sons. It had nothing to do with your sons.


Sunny said:


> Keesha, Hewbrew sounds like a good name for a beer.


Hahaha. It does.


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## caroln (Apr 9, 2021)

garyt1957 said:


> Was it  "Pass me the wine"?


 That's what I'll think of now, every time I remember the dream! I heard somewhere that Jesus had a good sense of humor!


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## charry (Apr 9, 2021)

Yes ....I’m living it now...!!


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## Serenity4321 (Apr 9, 2021)

I am a nonpracticing Catholic. I still call myself Catholic because it is my understanding once one is baptized they remain a Catholic unless excommunicated by the Church  

In my 20's I had serious reservations about God, the church, etc. I read up on all the religions I could find and came to the conclusion that there is truth in all. 

I dismiss truth exclusivity whether in churches or interpretations. The Bible has many issues as far as interpretations are concerned, but like all great works of art it can 'speak to' and have different meanings to different people. Therefore I do not see the point in telling another their view/interpretation is wrong.  I think perhaps individually people have what they need to progress on their path to understanding and it is incumbent on all of us to respect others POVs


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## Homeschoolie (Apr 9, 2021)

@Lara Sheesh.....lighten up.

I know you have been so strongly indoctrinated that you can't waver in your faith even a tiny bit, for a split second or god won't answer your prayers or even worse, you won't get to heaven because doubters don't go.
That god only rewards totally blind, totally unquestioning belief. No matter what is said or what happens...you FEAR doubting or wavering or questioning.
And that he can't be bothered to speak to you, or show up, so he talks to people by what he wrote in the Bible. The bible is all you have.
You may have also been convinced that your way is the only true and real way. And that you must "save" others by being an unwavering, never doubting, teacher and example to others. (hint: it won't work, they don't want to be "saved").

I get it, I totally get it, I was there once.....long time ago.

And then along came the  internet with a wealth of knowledge about other religions and what their "books" teach and say.
And the ability to read/access what the dead sea and other ancient scrolls say.
And what the numerous books say that were kicked out of the bible by power hungry religious leaders.
And so much incredible, interesting, awesome information about other spiritual beliefs and spiritual practices and what others have experienced.

I never looked back. I went through religious brainwashing and indoctrination DETOX and REHAB.
It opened up a whole new incredibly interesting life with lots of new possibilities.
And the fear mongering bible god didn't smite me to the ground. He, as usual, didn't bother to say anything or show up.

You have no clue what you are missing and have been missing all these years.. ... I didn't either.


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## Dana (Apr 9, 2021)

caroln said:


> Not to change the direction of this thread (which may be a good thing), but I have a question.  Has anyone had a dream about seeing God or Jesus?  I had a dream once that I was at a banquet and was sitting directly next to the left side of Jesus.  He said something to me which I can't remember, but when I woke and for several days afterward, I had this all encompassing feeling of peace.  Nothing made me annoyed or impatient and I felt like I was smiling inside all the time.  I never forgot that dream.  Was Jesus communicating with me?



_Heaven alone knows who was communicating wth you caroln...but...I know one thing for sure, it's a special dream and you should keep it close to your heart and not let anyone put their take on it.

Twice in my life I have had dreams that have filled me with awe and such joy. I have my own interpretations of what they meant. I have told no one the details of these dreams because, I feel if I do, the magic will disappear and I will not be blessed with another one._


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## Dana (Apr 9, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> @Dana While I have someone on this thread on permanent ignore for their remarks towards my sons, I don’t think you should have Lara on ignore.  I appreciate your answers to her.  I am no Bible scholar and won’t become one. You add a great deal to this discussion.  I know you are becoming frustrated.  I hope you will reconsider your decision.



_Thank you Aneeda...but sometimes as the saying goes, enough is enough for now._


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## Ruthanne (Apr 9, 2021)

Dana said:


> _Thank you Aneeda...but sometimes as the saying goes, enough is enough for now._


Dana you probably know you have every right to put anyone on ignore you want and I have done it too including some in this thread that I needed to.  I find it most helpful to do it at times.  All the best to you


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## Shalimar (Apr 9, 2021)

In the end, what resonates with me is a person’s character. Are they kind and compassionate, tolerant and empathetic? That is the benchmark, not religion, spirituality, or the lack of it.


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## Lara (Apr 10, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> As I understand it, the Bible’s are different but I’ve not read the Catholic version





Aneeda72 said:


> And you should @Lara inform yourself because you should be reading the Catholic version of the Bible.



First you say you have not read the Catholic bible. Then you tell me that I should read the Catholic bible.

You won't find ANYwhere in the forum where I've told anyone what they should do.


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## Lara (Apr 10, 2021)

Keesha said:


> What I find unfair about your approach to God is that any experiences or opinions others have, you immediately compare them with a book written thousands of years ago. It becomes more of a dictatorship instead of a conversation. It’s  like you have all of the RIGHT answers and the rest of us just don’t know because we don’t know the Bible like you do. The Bible isn’t the only book written about the energy within us and all around us. There are many books out there but even more important than that; people have profound experiences with our creator everyday by going out and experiencing life. Most of the people that I know who resort to the Bible are very closed minded. This is my opinion only. I respect your right to think differently but please respect my right to believe how I wish to.



The thread topic is Eternal Hell...which is in the Bible. The term, "Eternal Hell" started in the New Testament of the Bible. So why shouldn't I refer to the Bible? The thread title is also asking me "Do you believe?" It literally wants my personal belief...not yours.

You say you respect my right to think differently yet called me a "closed-minded Dictator". I haven't asked anyone to stop sharing their own belief or post their references....out of respect. I have repeatedly posted, "I'm not trying to change anyone's mind".

God created us with the ability to choose. It's scriptural that it's a personal choice to believe or not which determines their ultimate eternal destiny. So there is no way in Hell I would want to make that choice for them!

I can honestly say that I've never accused anyone of being "closed minded". Attacking the poster and not the post is actually against the rules.

I don't have "all the right answers" so I refer to the Bible which I believe with all my heart has the right answers. I'm unapologetic about that.
I won't let people silence me, try as they might. It's freedom of speech. It's freedom of religion.

My opinion is just as important as everyone else's. You say "the Bible isn't the only book written about the energy within and around us"...but that's not the Thread Topic. It's Eternal Hell.

I'm not at all offended for anyone to put me on ignore. It's easier on them and it's easier on me. I encourage it if I make you uncomfortable.


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## caroln (Apr 10, 2021)

Dana said:


> _Heaven alone knows who was communicating wth you caroln...but...I know one thing for sure, it's a special dream and you should keep it close to your heart and not let anyone put their take on it.
> 
> Twice in my life I have had dreams that have filled me with awe and such joy. I have my own interpretations of what they meant. I have told no one the details of these dreams because, I feel if I do, the magic will disappear and I will not be blessed with another one._


I totally agree with you.  I haven't shared this dream before, but I've wondered about it for so long I thought I'd just put it out here to possibly get some "dream interpretations".  I've always hoped to get a second dream of the same sort, but I guess one is all I get!


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> The thread topic is Eternal Hell...which is in the Bible. The term, "Eternal Hell" started in the New Testament of the Bible. So why shouldn't I refer to the Bible? The thread title is also asking me "Do you believe?" It literally wants my personal belief...not yours.
> 
> You say you respect my right to think differently yet called me a "closed-minded Dictator". I haven't asked anyone to stop sharing their own belief or post their references....out of respect. I have repeatedly posted, "I'm not trying to change anyone's mind".
> 
> ...


Lara. Where in my post did I call you a closed minded dictator? No where. I said ( and quote ) ‘most of the people I know who resort to the Bible are very closed minded.’ ( end quote )
Your name wasn’t in there.

The topic is ‘Do you believe in eternal hell.’ You believe the topic was conceived of through the Bible. Why? Because you read it in the Bible.
Maybe it was discussed long before the Bible was written. You don’t know that.

Of course you are allowed your opinion. You’ve given it plenty of times however when others have anything to say that contradicts your viewpoints you resort to Bible verses to prove them wrong.

Dana gave us a touching real life experience from a near death experience her son had and your response was that his experience couldn’t have happened that way and posted Bible references concluding that your answer must be right since you got the answer from the Bible.

You then say ( quote ) I don’t stop anyone from sharing their own beliefs or post references.....out of respect. ( end quote )
No you don’t stop anyone from sharing their beliefs nor do you ask for references.????
Why would people need references if they are sharing THeiR beliefs.? You only need references if you are sharing someone else’s beliefs which you do.

You may not be trying to change anyone else’s mind but it does seem like you are challenging others who don’t believe like you do. Even the Catholics you’ve had some words to say stating that they’ve got their minds made up already. And you don’t?

I’ve never accused anyone in particular of being closed minded either Lara. I didn’t attack you as a member so please stop acting like I did. I DID however mention that your way of conversing in this particular conversation seems more like a dictatorship so I WAS referring to your posting style and content.

Your quote “I don’t have all the right answers so I refer to the Bible which I believe in all my heart has all the right answers. “ unquote . If you are debating using  biblical references as YOUR OWN answers which you believe in all your heart is 100% right, then you yourself think you have all the ‘right’ answers.
Others can write about some miraculous experiences and you will research through your Bible so you know how to respond to them.

Also, I never asked you to apologize nor was I trying to silence you. I didn’t expect in the least that you would stop posting due to my frustration nor would I consider not posting due to yours.

I also didn’t say or even suggest that your opinion isn’t as important or significant as anyone else’s. You are finding words that just aren’t there.

Yes I wrote that the Bible isn’t the only book to talk about the energy within us ‘referring to our spirit or soul.’ If we are having a discussion about where the soul goes after death, there are thousands of books written on the subject besides the Bible.

Then to add a note suggesting members can put you on ignore if you make any of us uncomfortable? I’m not sure why you even added that. Of course we can. We don’t even need your permission. Lol.

Anyway Lara, I refuse to debate over this  any more with you. There are plenty of topics that don’t offer a debatable opinion which I will find.

Have a great weekend.
Note: friends are allowed to disagree.
You know I love you.


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## Aneeda72 (Apr 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> The thread topic is Eternal Hell...which is in the Bible. The term, "Eternal Hell" started in the New Testament of the Bible. So why shouldn't I refer to the Bible? The thread title is also asking me "Do you believe?" It literally wants my personal belief...not yours.
> 
> You say you respect my right to think differently yet called me a "closed-minded Dictator". I haven't asked anyone to stop sharing their own belief or post their references....out of respect. I have repeatedly posted, "I'm not trying to change anyone's mind".
> 
> ...


Hmm, I will not respond to anything but what you have written since I have the person you are speaking against on permanent ignore, however, @Lara I believe you are losing it a bit, to quote what you wrote-  “The thread title is also asking me “Do you Believe” it literally wants my personal belief not yours.”

*Are you hearing voices?-Lara.  *This thread was not started by the OP just for you to espouse your own personal beliefs.  As I have said, many times, it’s a discussion.  As I have said, before, no one is trying to silence you, no one is denying you any of your freedoms, no one cares about your religion.  NO ONE CARES.  This is just an interesting discussion.  You are an interesting person.  And please stop saying stuff is “against the rules” this is not grade school.

We are all aware of the thread title.  Threads tend to drift off in other directions.  Every now and then someone remarks that the thread has drifted, but conversations drift all the time, threads drift all the times, and while it can be frustrating sometimes to the OP, its ok.  I have said this before to you.

If it really bothers you, that the thread is off topic, I have already suggested you start a thread, a Bible thread if you like .  You refused because of the views this thread is getting and that’s fine.  It was a suggestion, not a command, not telling you what to do, just a suggestion.

I believe that you are ”closed minded”.  Nothing wrong with being closed minded but it limits your possibilities.  You are certainly disrespectful and closed mind towards Catholics, IMO, but that’s ok, doesn’t bother me because I am an open minded person, and this is just my opinion.  Not attacking you, just giving my opinion.

I believe you have attacked the person you were speaking to in the above conversation.  That person asked me that I not use their name since I have them on permanent ignore, so I can not use their name, and don’t want to.  Makes it a bit awkward , but you know who I mean I think.

In any event, calm down, Lara.  It’s just a discussion, nothing to get excited about.  People are getting frustrated.  I get frustrated on some threads as well.  But it’s not worth having a stroke over.  I am so behind this morning, got to get in gear.  Bbl.


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## Lara (Apr 10, 2021)

Keesha...I can't believe how you twisted everything I've said on every line of your post. It would take half a page to correct the accusations of what I've said in reality. I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to someone who is committed to misunderstanding me.

Aneeda...you're just way off base...your attacks are not worth my time.

What is happening here is that when members no longer have anything to add to the topic..."Do You Believe in an Eternal Hell" in this case....it deteriorates into attacking the members with deceptive accusations, slander, name-calling, twisted meanings, and gossip.

That's what gets threads closed...maybe that's your wish.


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## Lara (Apr 10, 2021)

Back to the topic. Eternal Hell was first mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible. In the Old Testament there was Sheol and Hades but they were different and not eternal. Does anyone have proof as to where "Eternal Hell" was ever mentioned before the OT?


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> Keesha...I can't believe how you twisted everything I've said on every line of your post. It would take half a page to correct the accusations of what I've said in reality. I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to someone who is committed to misunderstanding me.
> 
> Aneeda...you're just way off base...your attacks are not worth my time.
> 
> ...


How I’ve twisted it? WTF?
Okayyyyy Lara. You keep proving us all wrong!
Enjoy!


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## Keesha (Apr 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> Back to the topic. Eternal Hell was first mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible. In the Old Testament there was Sheol and Hades but they were different and not eternal. Does anyone have proof as to where "Eternal Hell" was ever mentioned before the OT?


And for the record; you aren’t in charge of this topic. You just think you are Bible girl.


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## Dana (Apr 10, 2021)

I can hardly believe what I am reading here. To begin with and for the record...

Aneeda did not "attack" anyone... I am impressed actually with the way she presents her points. I can tell you I have a lot of experience with how points are put across.

Keesha did not "twist" anything. She is spot on in her summations.

It is universally accepted that one cannot get to the crux of any matter, unless they have explored many other points of view and possibilities. Then and only then is that person capable of forming an informed opinion. To procure information from one single source is not only limiting but suffocating.

I was upbraided for saying someone was "wrong" ...well that still stands. A person is so darn wrong if they expect they can be educated by reading only one book.


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## Lara (Apr 10, 2021)

Clique comes to mind.

Back to the topic. Eternal Hell was first mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible. In the Old Testament there was Sheol and Hades but they were different and not eternal. Does anyone know where "Eternal Hell" was ever mentioned before the OT?


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## StarSong (Apr 10, 2021)

Lara said:


> Clique comes to mind.
> 
> Back to the topic. Eternal Hell was first mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible. In the Old Testament there was Sheol and Hades but they were different and not eternal. Does anyone know where "Eternal Hell" was ever mentioned before the OT?


No.  I don't think any of the previous major religions pushed the idea of such a vengeful creator.


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