# Equality for men



## Traveler (Jan 5, 2018)

For the last 100 years women have been demanding, and receiving, more and more equality. Ok, fair enough ! But should this not also be a 2-way street ? 

What about men ? Do we not also deserve equality ? Men, overwhelmingly, are still considered the primary bread winners. True, some women do out earn men, but that is a tiny fraction of all 2 income households. The primary responsibility for all men, world-wide, is to provide. In todays world, that is an outmoded sexist concept. It needs to change.

And what about equality in the family court ?  While it is true that a few men do gain full and complete custody of the children, the odds of that happening are slim if the woman is also seeking custody.  This too needs to change.

During times of national emergency men can be drafted into military service and forced to fight and possibly die or be mutilated. Women on the other hand are not even required to register for the draft at age 18. If women choose to join, that is their prerogative, but it is not required. Why ? Because they are female. 

In the every day world of most couples, it is understood that he, the man, will do certain tasks. If, in the middle of the night, there is a noise that sounds like someone has broken into the house, it is universally accepted that the man will go and deal with the problem while the woman stays safe and calls 911 for help. Ok, fine. We are larger and better equipped to cope with such emergencies. Anyone who is truly honest will agree that it is HIS job because he is a man. But, God help the man who dares to say, or even suggest, that X, Y or Z is the woman's job to take care of any specific task. Seriously, people, can you even imagine what would happen if a man dared to say, " You're the woman, you're supposed to cook".  LOL

Even in the every day world of dating, men are expected to be the one to put his ego on the line and ask her for a date. Do some women take on that role ? Yes, I suppose, but it's damn rare. So, why do women wait for the man to do the asking ? Quite simple really. Women recognize that THEY have the power and there is no way they are going to give that up.  

When it come time to propose marriage, 99% of the time it is the man who must go through certain steps. First he must spend, on average 2 months wages to acquire a diamond ring. Now, when it comes time to "pop the question", what must he do ? Right ! You guessed it. He gets down on one knee, offering up the diamond, and pleads for her hand in marriage. The symbolism is inescapable. Once again SHE has the power and SHE is requiring him to acknowledge this fact. 

So, what is to be done ? If women are demanding and receiving equality is it not also fair for the man to have the same ? If women want all the rights and privileges of a man AND simultaneously keep all of the rights and privileges of being a woman then the same should apply to men.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

My goodness. I have been self supporting since I left high school. No man has ever supported me. I have never had a problem asking a man out, and, for that matter, I asked my Philly to marry me. Beat him to the punch. Loll. Told him I didn’t require an engagement ring. With respect, Traveler, I think we inhabit different worlds. In the world in which I live, women on average  

earn 70 cents on the dollar while doing the same job as men. It is very difficult for them to get top flight jobs in the scientific community regardles of their credentials. Some men still treat me as if I am too feminine/emotionally fragile  to do the tough job of being a psychotherapist. Particularly in dealing with vets suffering from PTSD.

More often than not, the same holds true in business. A woman’s career in politics  is fraught with condescension, and sadly, often ****** harassment and sometimes assault. Same goes for careers in police, military, paramedics, and firefighters. It is getting better in trades. Equality in the workplace is a work in progress. As for a national emergency, here in Canada, we have had women serving in the Armed Forces 

for a generation, submarines being the last holdout in early 2000s. Who knows what steps would be taken in the event of a major war? As for the division of labour, each according to their ability. Cooking and cleaning are gender neutral, heavy lifting, dealing with usually male burglers are not. (Shooting burglers in Canada is a risky business due to our gun laws.) Bearing children and 

breastfeeding are also gender specific. Raising kids is not. Given that 65% of divorced fathers are delinquent in child support, I can understand a judge’s reluctance to award custody. In some cases that backfires, and children suffer, all mothers are not 

good parents. There are some wonderful men who are fabulous dads, great fathers, sons, brothers,  grampas, boyfriends, friends, and husbands. They treat women as equal partners, and we love them for it. My son is one of them, my fiancé also. I am blessed  to have them in my life. I view men as my equals, I have no desire to have power over anyone but myself.


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## Vega_Lyra (Jan 6, 2018)

Just for fun.......


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Vega_Lyra said:


> Just for fun.......


Hahahahahaha.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Some random thoughts in blue



Traveler said:


> For the last 100 years women have been demanding, and receiving, more and more equality. Ok, fair enough ! But should this not also be a 2-way street ?
> 
> What about men ? Do we not also deserve equality ? Men, overwhelmingly, are still considered the primary bread winners. True, some women do out earn men, but that is a tiny fraction of all 2 income households. The primary responsibility for all men, world-wide, is to provide. In todays world, that is an outmoded sexist concept. It needs to change.
> World wide is beyond my capacity to comment. In our marriage I took leave of absence for one year for our first child then was not employed for two and a half year with the other. During those three and a half years we lived on one income which was hubby's. Later he took leave of absence for two years to study. Then we lived on my income. Early on his income was greater, later mine was. Before he retired I left work to care for our mothers and again he was the major breadwinner. I very much doubt that he wanted to trade places with me.
> ...


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## chic (Jan 6, 2018)

Men have so many more freedoms on so many levels than women have had for centuries. We're just catching up. While men are bread-winners, often women contribute to the family income, while raising children, providing nourishing meals, caring for the home, providing love and tenderness as well as all at home medical care. Raising decent well adjusted children is absolutely THE hardest job there is. Our future depends on this. 

I think men and women should mutually respect each other. Women's lib only started because women wanted what men have enjoyed all along, equal pay for equal work and ****** freedom.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Including freedom from ****** harassment and assault.


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## terry123 (Jan 6, 2018)

m/What Shalimar said!!  Many many years ago I was left with 2 kids to support by myself with court ordered child support that I never got. Why, because back then enforcing child support orders were the last thing police worried about. My law enforcement brother who lived in another state said they were so swamped with murder, rape  etc, cases child support warrants were the least of their worries.  I worked 3 jobs doing the same jobs as men and earned a lot less than them. So don't tell me about equality for men!!!  When I finally got a warrant for his arrest, he quit his job, worked rat construction and could not be found. I had no money to track him as I was trying to take care of 2 young children.  I did not go on welfare or food stamps and I made it and I never looked back.  Finally women are getting the respect and money they deserve. I have been through the ****** harassment and found that a well placed slap on the face ended my problems with that along with a couple of employers that made it crystal clear to the men involved that they would be fired if it happened again. I was blessed to work for two men that respected my work and when it came raise time told me to raise myself whatever amount I needed as they knew I would not take advantage of them.


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 6, 2018)

IMO it shouldn't be about equality it should be about equity and fairness for all people.


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## Laurie (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar will love this one.

If men want to be equal with women,  the women will all have to have lobotomies!


(I used to work, the only male , in an all female hall of residence.  That was one of the milder jibes I got on a daily, nay hourly, basis.  I was never o well off for hugs though!).


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## Sunny (Jan 6, 2018)

The diamond ring thing is kind of a puzzlement to me. In this day and age, it seems kind of silly and anachronistic. Plus all the other quaint customs surrounding proposals (getting down on one knee, etc.). Even asking the woman's parents for their approval is still done sometimes, though it's more a charming symbol of respect. But a lot of these marriage customs do seem to die hard, equality or not.


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## Buckeye (Jan 6, 2018)

I'm all for equality, and always treated the chicks who worked for me very well.....


On a more serious note, how do you feel about the custom of women changing their last name to match the man's name?


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## Sunny (Jan 6, 2018)

It certainly made things a lot simpler when everyone did that!


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> I'm all for equality, and always treated the chicks who worked for me very well.....
> 
> 
> On a more serious note, how do you feel about the custom of women changing their last name to match the man's name?


No thanks. It would make me feel like property.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Laurie said:


> Shalimar will love this one.
> 
> If men want to be equal with women,  the women will all have to have lobotomies!
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha. Laurie, you are adorable.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

terry123 said:


> m/What Shalimar said!!  Many many years ago I was left with 2 kids to support by myself with court ordered child support that I never got. Why, because back then enforcing child support orders were the last thing police worried about. My law enforcement brother who lived in another state said they were so swamped with murder, rape  etc, cases child support warrants were the least of their worries.  I worked 3 jobs doing the same jobs as men and earned a lot less than them. So don't tell me about equality for men!!!  When I finally got a warrant for his arrest, he quit his job, worked rat construction and could not be found. I had no money to track him as I was trying to take care of 2 young children.  I did not go on welfare or food stamps and I made it and I never looked back.  Finally women are getting the respect and money they deserve. I have been through the ****** harassment and found that a well placed slap on the face ended my problems with that along with a couple of employers that made it crystal clear to the men involved that they would be fired if it happened again. I was blessed to work for two men that respected my work and when it came raise time told me to raise myself whatever amount I needed as they knew I would not take advantage of them.


You have my respect.


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## RadishRose (Jan 6, 2018)

When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.


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## IKE (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:
			
		

> When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> My goodness. I have been self supporting since I left high school. No man has ever supported me. I have never had a problem asking a man out, and, for that matter, I asked my Philly to marry me. Beat him to the punch. Loll. Told him I didn’t require an engagement ring. With respect, Traveler, I think we inhabit different worlds. In the world in which I live, women on average
> 
> earn 70 cents on the dollar while doing the same job as men. It is very difficult for them to get top flight jobs in the scientific community regardles of their credentials. Some men still treat me as if I am too feminine/emotionally fragile  to do the tough job of being a psychotherapist. Particularly in dealing with vets suffering from PTSD.
> 
> ...



Your personal experience is not the norm.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.



That certainly is a trump card I would not want equality with.  I would fold if offered.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Your personal experience is not the norm.


I disagree. For many women, it is the new norm. The fact that in Canada more women are now in university than men is a harbinger of more to come.


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## MarkinPhx (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.



Agreed !


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## nvtribefan (Jan 6, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> On a more serious note, how do you feel about the custom of women changing their last name to match the man's name?



I don't understand this custom.  My husband and I have our original last names.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> I disagree. For many women, it is the new norm. The fact that in Canada more women are now in university than men is a harbinger of more to come.



It doesn't make any difference for the level of education except for earning power.

Harbinger of things to come.?  For the better or for the worse.?

Men are finding out that the trades are the way to go for financial stability and forget about university.

A carpenter, plumber, electrician, can always find a job.

Not too many women want to pursue the trades.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> It doesn't make any difference for the level of education except for earning power.
> 
> Harbinger of things to come.?  For the better or for the worse.?
> 
> ...


Actually, that is changing. I live near a mill town. I personally know  two female millwrights, three electricians, and one welder.  On the other hand, my son’s wife graduated from law school, currently studying to pass the board.


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## jujube (Jan 6, 2018)

We're definitely not traveling in the same universe, Traveler.  But that doesn't surprise me.  Not at all.  You seem like a very bitter person who life has disappointed. 

I proposed to my late husband.  I didn't get an engagement ring until we had been married for 25 years and even then, it sure didn't cost anywhere near two month's salary.  Quite often I made more money than he did.  While he was working on his doctorate, he took on the majority of the childraising, room-motherhood and was even a Brownie Scout leader, while I worked hard at a demanding, high-paid job with long hours.  We were a partnership; sometimes he was the provider, sometimes I was....most of the time we shared the job.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Well, quite a few interesting replies.  Before proceeding any further, I want to make it absolutely clear that I am NOT talking about taking away ANY equal rights for women. I speak ONLY about equal rights for men. 

Now, because of the large response, I can not address each and everyone's post. What I can do, however, is take one item at a time and discuss and debate that.

Shall we 1st examine compulsory registration for the draft ?  At age 18, every young man is required by law to go to the selective service office and register for the draft. Failure to do so carries a heavy federal charge.  What are we actually talking about here ? We are talking about young men losing their freedom. True, today there is no actual draft BUT in time of national emergency the draft can instantly be instituted. 

Think about that for a minute. You are going about your life and making plans for the future. Suddenly, the government says to you, "Stop whatever you are doing and report within X number of days for military service."  You have just lost your freedom. You are, in essence, held captive by the government and they can ship you off to the battle zone where you may lose your life or have your body horribly mutilated.

This is NOT something that any female ever has to worry about. She has the special exemption because of her gender. She does not even have to register for the draft. There is no comparable situation where a young woman is required to die.  That, my friends, is NOT equality in action. 

I am NOT suggesting that young women be put in a situation where they may be required to engage in hand-to-hand combat. However, in todays modern hi-tech world, there are hundreds of military jobs which require ONLY a sound and nimble mind.

So, as a 1st step toward true equality, I suggest that all 18 year olds, both male AND female, be required by law, to register for the draft. Equal rights carry with it, equal responsibility.

If anyone can demonstrate that young women are not up to the task, then I will withdraw this suggestion.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

In my line of work, worrying about negative consequences to an event which may never take place is referred to as anticipatory despair. Dicey trying to read the future. There is no way of knowing whether or not the draft will be instituted.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> In my line of work, worrying about negative consequences to an event which may never take place is referred to as anticipatory despair. Dicey trying to read the future. There is no way of knowing whether or not the draft will be instituted.



That is NOT a reply. It is dancing neatly away from the issue.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 6, 2018)

Hoot N Annie said:


> I'm all for equality, and always treated the chicks who worked for me very well.....
> 
> 
> On a more serious note, how do you feel about the custom of women changing their last name to match the man's name?



I did it when I got married. When I got divorced, I simply undid everything I did when I got married. It's not legal to do that now; you have to have a court order to make the name change.

Some states don't allow a woman with children to revert to her birth name after divorce. I can't imagine why women living in those states change their names when they get married; I sure wouldn't. I worked for a retired judge who thought it was wrong that my name was different from my son's. I reminded him that his wife's five children from a previous marriage didn't have the same last name as hers.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> That is NOT a reply. It is dancing neatly away from the issue.


Actually, it is a reply, just perhaps not one you approve of. In truth, it is very difficult to gage another person’s motivation. I am trained to do so, and I often fail. IMHO,  what we have here is a difference of perspective, quite common between two individuals who view the world differently.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Actually, it is a reply, just perhaps not one you approve of. In truth, it is very difficult to gage another person’s motivation. I am trained to do so, and I often fail. IMHO,  what we have here is a difference of perspective, quite common between two individuals who view the world differently.



It is not a matter of me approving or disapproving.  Completely avoiding the issue does not work.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.



Here we have yet another post, that totally avoids the issue.


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> It is not a matter of me approving or disapproving.  Completely avoiding the issue does not work.


Again, we have a difference of opinion, I believe I gave the issue the attention it merited, you feel otherwise. Have a lovely day, I am exiting this thread.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 6, 2018)

Were you drafted into the military, Traveler?

I'm still laughing about the man being expected to check for intruders. My ex was a coward and I was a better shot.


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## Laurie (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> When a man can push a human being out of his body, maybe then we can talk. Maybe.



Now we're back to gross behaviour again.

There are places where no reasonable person expects to see a face!


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Were you drafted into the military, Traveler?
> 
> I'm still laughing about the man being expected to check for intruders. My ex was a coward and I was a better shot.



Of course he wasn't a coward until the divorce. You know. Once you're divorced you should stay divorced.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Of course he wasn't a coward until the divorce. You know. Once you're divorced you should stay divorced.



He was a coward long before the divorce. He's remarried 7 times since then, mostly to the same woman.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

I find it truly amazing that so many women deny what men across the globe experience everyday. I, naturally, can not even imagine what it feels like to give birth. Likewise no women can possibly imagine what it is to live as a man. 

I am still patiently waiting for an answer to my question. Are young women up to the task of defending their country, in the military ?
Are women ready, willing and able to accept responsibilities that go hand-in-hand with equality or do women claim exemption because of gender ?


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## CeeCee (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I find it truly amazing that so many women deny what men across the globe experience everyday. I, naturally, can not even imagine what it feels like to give birth. Likewise no women can possibly imagine what it is to live as a man.
> 
> I am still patiently waiting for an answer to my question. Are young women up to the task of defending their country, in the military ?
> Are women ready, willing and able to accept responsibilities that go hand-in-hand with equality or do women claim exemption because of gender ?



I thought we already had women in the military.  As for myself, the answer is no I probably couldn't do it. Just being honest.

I don't think I could even change a tire, too heavy.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Again, we have a difference of opinion, I believe I gave the issue the attention it merited, you feel otherwise. Have a lovely day, I am exiting this thread.



If you can not directly and honestly answer the question, then perhaps it is best if you do exit. Avoiding the question clearly demonstrates an unwillingness to address *real *equality.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

CeeCee said:


> I thought we already had women in the military.  As for myself, the answer is no I probably couldn't do it. Just being honest.
> 
> I don't think I could even change a tire, too heavy.



Thank you for your honesty.  Yes, we do indeed, have women in the military. Every one of them is a volunteer. None were ever drafted like men. But the bigger question remains. Should every young women accept full responsibility of being a citizen or do they claim exemption due to gender ?


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Women just cannot admit they are treated preferentially compared to men.

They just can't.

But they are in plenty of aspects.

I'm not knocking it.  I'm just saying it exists and has existed for centuries.

I wouldn't want a woman fighting next to me in the military.  I would be trying to protect her instead of myself.

it's ingrained in men.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

CeeCee said:


> I don't think I could even change a tire, too heavy.



I can change a flat tyre by changing the wheel, at least I could as a young woman and I did so a number of times. These days neither hubby nor I bother. First, tyres today seldom go flat and second we can simply call the NRMA roadside service.

About the draft, I did not know that America still requires 18 year olds to register. It is probably time to stop doing that. Conscription is only necessary in an all out global war. Even then, a fully professional volunteer military is more effective than using conscripts. 

In purely biological terms, any society that fails to protect its young women and girls, the breeding stock for future generations, is doomed to slow decay and oblivion.


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## CeeCee (Jan 6, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I can change a flat tyre by changing the wheel, at least I could as a young woman and I did so a number of times. These days neither hubby nor I bother. First, tyres today seldom go flat and second we can simply call the NRMA roadside service.
> 
> About the draft, I did not know that America still requires 18 year olds to register. It is probably time to stop doing that. Conscription is only necessary in an all out global war. Even then, a fully professional volunteer military is more effective than using conscripts.
> 
> In purely biological terms, any society that fails to protect its young women and girls, the breeding stock for future generations, is doomed to slow decay and oblivion.




Ive never had to change one but know I couldn't now.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> True, some women do out earn men, but that is a tiny fraction of all 2 income households.



Actually it's close to 30% that out-earn their husbands - I wouldn't call that a "tiny fraction".

There's also an age gap in women's earnings - younger women (20-24 years old) are far more likely (~90%) to have wage equity than older women (55-64), who are only at ~74%.

Source



> And what about equality in the family court ? While it is true that a few men do gain full and complete custody of the children, the odds of that happening are slim if the woman is also seeking custody. This too needs to change.



Perhaps more fathers should make their child support payments. Of course, the poverty-level stats influence this to a large degree. 

IMO, women are simply more nurturing and the courts recognize this.



> Seriously, people, can you even imagine what would happen if a man dared to say, " You're the woman, you're supposed to cook". LOL



That is of course a two-edged sword. What if a women happened to tell you, "You're the man, you're supposed to be fixing the house" ? 

The idea of pre-defined roles based on gender, while perhaps somewhat influenced by physical factors, is a failing paradigm. The newer generations recognize this.


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## RadishRose (Jan 6, 2018)

Even as a young woman I was in no way fit physically nor mentally for combat-unless protecting the lives of my progeny. That's all I'm wired for in the way of combat.

Women are the vessels for the precious lives of our young; for nurturing them for 18 years or so.

So my opinion is no.

It's not just "gender" it's what the gender does.

Men fight to protect their territories, that's how they are wired, or what their instincts are. They actually somewhat enjoy war, re-enact wars, play war, watch "action movies" about war, glory of war, etc. Fighting is thrilling to them. 

If a law was put into place for young women to be drafted as men are and as I _think_ happened in Israel (not sure) I would abide by the law.  

As things stand now, I think it's fair that men go and fight the wars. Women get to stay home support the war effort, give birth to and raise the next crop of cannon fodder for the wars men start. I think that's enough.

That's all I have to say. Anything more would be repetition.


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## Sunny (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler (and others), are you aware that ever since the founding of modern Israel in 1949, women have been drafted into military service along with the men?  Here is what Wikipedia tells us about it:

[h=2]Military service obligation[/h] 

 

 Officers in reserve duty before parachuting exercise. Reserve service may continue until the age of 51[SUP][2][/SUP]


 In 1949, after the founding of the State of Israel, the Defense  Service Law gave the IDF the authority to enlist any citizen. Draftees  would then be required to show up for the draft in accordance with the  military's decision to enlist them. Under this law, the period of  service for men was 30 months and for women 18 months (although in  accordance with a temporary order from January 10, 1968, six additional  months were added to the mandatory service, 36 months for men and 24  months for women respectively.) The draft requirement applies to any  citizen or permanent resident who has reached the age of 18, and in  accordance with the law, the individuals who are exempt from the draft  are dismissed for various reasons, such as incapability, medical  problems, military personnel needs, etc. Many of the soldiers who  complete their mandatory military service are later obligated to serve  in a reserve unit in accordance with the military's needs.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Israel was in a different position than most countries. They needed all the manpower they could get. They are an exception not the rule.


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## Sunny (Jan 6, 2018)

> Well, quite a few interesting replies.  Before proceeding any further, I  want to make it absolutely clear that I am NOT talking about taking  away ANY equal rights for women. I speak ONLY about equal rights for  men.
> 
> Now, because of the large response, I can not address each and  everyone's post. What I can do, however, is take one item at a time and  discuss and debate that.
> 
> ...



Camper, I was responding to the above post by Traveler on this subject.  He was generalizing about men and women; I didn't hear him making any exception about Israelis.  

When women are needed in military service, they get drafted, period. Although I don't know if they get as many combat assignments. It would be interesting to know that.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I find it truly amazing that so many women deny what men across the globe experience everyday. I, naturally, can not even imagine what it feels like to give birth. Likewise no women can possibly imagine what it is to live as a man.
> 
> I am still patiently waiting for an answer to my question. Are young women up to the task of defending their country, in the military ?
> Are women ready, willing and able to accept responsibilities that go hand-in-hand with equality or do women claim exemption because of gender ?



Did you? So far you haven't answered my question about whether you were drafted.

I would have been willing to serve. I would have had no problem doing so.

Is the rather astounding number of women in the military who have been raped by their male [supposed] peers part of what you consider equality?


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

I'm going to leave the last word to the bakers to their inspiration - the Bible



> Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matt 7:3-5



Also, if they feel free to treat certain customers as they did the lesbian couple, then they should not complain when they experience discrimination from other individuals keen to act out their particular religious beliefs. Imagine the uproar is a shop refused service to any woman wearing a sleeveless dress or showing a bit of cleavage. What is only bearded men could receive service?


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

His point was they are not drafted in the U.S. and males are. His point is preferential treatment for females.

Israel is not the United States.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Did you? So far you haven't answered my question about whether you were drafted.
> 
> I would have been willing to serve. I would have had no problem doing so.
> 
> Is the rather astounding number of women in the military who have been raped by their male [supposed] peers part of what you consider equality?



Lets not go there please. It's not approved by the military.


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> I'm going to leave the last word to the bakers to their inspiration - the Bible
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if they feel free to treat certain customers as they did the lesbian couple, then they should not complain when they experience discrimination from other individuals keen to act out their particular religious beliefs. Imagine the uproar is a shop refused service to any woman wearing a sleeveless dress or showing a bit of cleavage. What is only bearded men could receive service?



Please don't quote the Bible because if you do it would support the baker.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

SifuPhil said:


> Actually it's close to 30% that out-earn their husbands - I wouldn't call that a "tiny fraction".
> 
> There's also an age gap in women's earnings - younger women (20-24 years old) are far more likely (~90%) to have wage equity than older women (55-64), who are only at ~74%.
> 
> ...



I have been told it is my job, as the man, to fix the house., many times.  Once as a newly wed 20 year old, I was trying my best to fix a leaky bathroom sink drain. In all honesty, I had no clue on how to do it.  And what did I hear from my wife ? "What kind of a man did I marry? What's wrong with you ?"


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Women just cannot admit they are treated preferentially compared to men.
> 
> They just can't.
> 
> ...



Camper, I totally agree.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

RadishRose said:


> Even as a young woman I was in no way fit physically nor mentally for combat-unless protecting the lives of my progeny. That's all I'm wired for in the way of combat.
> 
> Women are the vessels for the precious lives of our young; for nurturing them for 18 years or so.
> 
> ...



Radishrose, while I do not agree with everything you say, I do very much appreciate your honesty and your answer. thank you.


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## SifuPhil (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I have been told it is my job, as the man, to fix the house., many times. Once as a newly wed 20 year old, I was trying my best to fix a leaky bathroom sink drain. In all honesty, I had no clue on how to do it. And what did I hear from my wife ? "What kind of a man did I marry? What's wrong with you ?"



And do you suppose you were as irritated when you heard that as when your wife heard "Can't you cook? Didn't Mom teach you?" 

Not saying _you_ said that, but many housewives do hear it.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

The entire point of this thread is calling into question whether one gender should enjoy all the rights of their gender AND the right to pursue all the rights of the opposite gender.  That, friends, is called having your cake and eating it too. 

There are thousands of examples of women choosing to being treated as a lady one day and then, when it suits them, turning right around and demanding to be treated the same as a man.  

Men do not have that option.  There are many tasks which fall to men. Our wives and girl friends demand it. Period !


----------



## hearlady (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> The entire point of this thread is calling into question whether one gender should enjoy all the rights of their gender AND the right to pursue all the rights of the opposite gender.  That, friends, is called having your cake and eating it too.
> 
> There are thousands of examples of women choosing to being treated as a lady one day and then, when it suits them, turning right around and demanding to be treated the same as a man.
> 
> Men do not have that option.  There are many tasks which fall to men. Our wives and girl friends demand it. Period !


Yes, and you can pursue any rights of the opposite gender.
BTW, exactly what rights would you like? If it's physically possible you should have them. I have no problem with that.
Maybe you need different wives and girlfriends.


----------



## Dragonlady (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler, many of the points in your original post have a degree of validity, but you ignore the role men themselves have played in perpetuating the "inequality" to men. There are many men who actively resist any social change. They want to maintain the status quo of the mid 1900's. Changing gender "roles" is a work-progress that will go on probably for many years and the current population will have a mix of ideas on the subject.
As for the whole military issue. Most military personnel have traditionally been dead set against allowing women into the military at all. Little by little women are changing that. As for the draft, that's almost laughable. There are just as many men , as well as women that would be strongly against it. Probable more. The ****** assault issue is a serious problem that will have to be dealt with before many parents will be positive about having their daughters drafted . Not many parents are going to be too enthusiastic about their daughters being put into an environment where ****** assault is practically a given. Many men already in the military say they feel they are more at risk with a female - especially in the more "Macho" branches. 
As for women, there are many women who are quite self sufficient. I changed tires - as well as spark plugs, etc. I did plumbing, woodworking (built and designed my own coffee and end tables, that I am still using). Currently I can afford to pay someone else to do various house repairs and at my age simply don't want to do it any more - but could still do if I had too. I own a firearm and know how to use it (but don't anymore - just killed targets anyway) For safety, I have a big dog. In that area, men are just as guilty for raising their daughters to be "weak and helpless"  and all that goes with it - not all of course, but many. The whole cultural system is in a state of flux.
Child custody is also in a state of flux and even the legal system is not all on the same page. Way too many parents are too wrapped up in pursuing vengeance on each other to have their children's best interests at heart. When I divorced my Ex, I refused child support. Being in any way depended on your Ex gives him a means of controlling and manipulating you. As an RN I made an adequate income and had no need of more. Every young girl should be encouraged to get whatever training she needs and/or wants - so she can be self supporting instead of being encouraged to depend on marriage as a means of earning a living


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Yes, and you can pursue any rights of the opposite gender.
> BTW, exactly what rights would you like? If it's physically possible you should have them. I have no problem with that.
> Maybe you need different wives and girlfriends.



I thought I had been very clear on what I want for men. In case some people overlooked it, I want men and women to be treated exactly the same when it comes time to being called into military service. In other words, for every man drafted and sent into the battle zone, I want to see a woman sent there as well. If 20,000 soldiers are sent into combat, 10,000 of them should be female.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 6, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Traveler, many of the points in your original post have a degree of validity, but you ignore the role men themselves have played in perpetuating the "inequality" to men. There are many men who actively resist any social change. They want to maintain the status quo of the mid 1900's. Changing gender "roles" is a work-progress that will go on probably for many years and the current population will have a mix of ideas on the subject.
> As for the whole military issue. Most military personnel have traditionally been dead set against allowing women into the military at all. Little by little women are changing that. As for the draft, that's almost laughable. There are just as many men , as well as women that would be strongly against it. Probable more. The ****** assault issue is a serious problem that will have to be dealt with before many parents will be positive about having their daughters drafted . Not many parents are going to be too enthusiastic about their daughters being put into an environment where ****** assault is practically a given. Many men already in the military say they feel they are more at risk with a female - especially in the more "Macho" branches.
> As for women, there are many women who are quite self sufficient. I changed tires - as well as spark plugs, etc. I did plumbing, woodworking (built and designed my own coffee and end tables, that I am still using). Currently I can afford to pay someone else to do various house repairs and at my age simply don't want to do it any more - but could still do if I had too. I own a firearm and know how to use it (but don't anymore - just killed targets anyway) For safety, I have a big dog. In that area, men are just as guilty for raising their daughters to be "weak and helpless"  and all that goes with it - not all of course, but many. The whole cultural system is in a state of flux.
> Child custody is also in a state of flux and even the legal system is not all on the same page. Way too many parents are too wrapped up in pursuing vengeance on each other to have their children's best interests at heart. When I divorced my Ex, I refused child support. Being in any way depended on your Ex gives him a means of controlling and manipulating you. As an RN I made an adequate income and had no need of more. Every young girl should be encouraged to get whatever training she needs and/or wants - so she can be self supporting instead of being encouraged to depend on marriage as a means of earning a living



Agree with your assessments.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I thought I had been very clear on what I want for men. In case some people overlooked it, I want men and women to be treated exactly the same when it comes time to being called into military service. In other words, for every man drafted and sent into the battle zone, I want to see a woman sent there as well. If 20,000 soldiers are sent into combat, 10,000 of them should be female.



Traveler, but there is no draft and military service is voluntary, for men as well as for women. Would you really want your children to become possible orphans? If the woman wants to serve, then maybe the man should stay as a civilian with the children--when and if there is a draft.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I thought I had been very clear on what I want for men. In case some people overlooked it, I want men and women to be treated exactly the same when it comes time to being called into military service. In other words, for every man drafted and sent into the battle zone, I want to see a woman sent there as well. If 20,000 soldiers are sent into combat, 10,000 of them should be female.



It seems to me that men are the ones holding up the changes that would allow women equality in combat zones.

My preference would be to maintain a volunteer military open to all United States citizens.  I think the combat focus should shift to the use of drones, computers, etc... and minimize the need for boots on the ground.  If women are needed in combat zones my preference would be to have female units segregated from male units.  I think that a group of well trained, determined young women with a common goal would perform just as well as a group of young men.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Traveler, but there is no draft and military service is voluntary, for men as well as for women. Would you really want your children to become possible orphans? If the woman wants to serve, then maybe the man should stay as a civilian with the children--when and if there is a draft.



I just want women to have to exact same responsibilities, militarily speaking, as men. (When and if there is a draft)


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> It seems to me that men are the ones holding up the changes that would allow women equality in combat zones.
> 
> Aunt Bea, you may very well be right.  All I'm doing is planting the seed of a new concept. Call me, Johnny Appleseed.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I just want women to have to exact same responsibilities, militarily speaking, as men. (When and if there is a draft)



I understand what you're saying. If I had a son (or grandson--whatever) I'd want that for him, too. But no one in the military has the same exact responsibilities. But, yes, I get it.


----------



## hearlady (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler I admit that seems unfair concerning the draft. There are legitimate reasons why this is so. RadishRose made some excellent points.
I feel this is something that falls under the "life is not fair" category. 
We try to make it up in other ways I suppose.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Traveler I admit that seems unfair concerning the draft. There are legitimate reasons why this is so. RadishRose made some excellent points.
> I feel this is something that falls under the "life is not fair" category.
> We try to make it up in other ways I suppose.




Thank you for that bit of honesty. 

P. S. When I said "exact same responsibilities" , I did not necessarily mean the exact same job. When sheer brute strength is a requirement, then naturally the job would fall to men but women could certainly do any number of other battle field jobs. That would be close enough to "equality" to satisfy me.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Thank you for that bit of honesty.
> 
> P. S. When I said "exact same responsibilities" , I did not necessarily mean the exact same job. When sheer brute strength is a requirement, then naturally the job would fall to men but women could certainly do any number of other battle field jobs. That would be close enough to "equality" to satisfy me.



You mean like in "Mash"?   I'm not sure about the battle field, but there are lots of stuff that men do that is not on the battle field, so I don't see why it has to be that. 

But anyway, I like your controversial topics.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Olivia said:


> You mean like in "Mash"?   I'm not sure about the battle field, but there are lots of stuff that men do that is not on the battle field, so I don't see why it has to be that.
> 
> But anyway, I like your controversial topics.




No, I was not thinking of MASH type jobs. I was thinking more along the lines of: anti-aircraft batteries, certain artillery positions, truck drivers, front-line medics etc.

The reason why it needs to be battle field positions is so women can get a real good taste of what men have gone through,

I'm glad you enjoy my controversial topics. They seem to really upset some people, but that's ok with me. They are not buying my dinner so I really don't care.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not a scholar of the Bible but I'm sure you can find references to homosexuals without looking too hard.


 Yes, but most references want them put to death. I do think it is rather silent on lesbians though. And absolutely silent on wedding cakes.

Here are a couple


> If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed  an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon  them. (Leviticus 20:13)



Homosexuality is but one of many immoralities that result is death of the soul. Greedy, drunken adulterers are mentioned in the same breath as homosexuals. Apparently female prostitutes as a lesser category? Perhaps not, although Jesus seemed to have sympathy for these women. This quote, however, is not from the teachings of Jesus. This is Paul of Tarsus writing to a city that was rife with all kinds of immorality.



> Do not  be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male  prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards  nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)


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## Camper6 (Jan 6, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> And the verse would be? I don't remember any text that says, "Thou shalt not do business with sinners."


I'm not a scholar of the Bible but I'm sure you can find references to homosexuals without looking too hard.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> No, I was not thinking of MASH type jobs. I was thinking more along the lines of: anti-aircraft batteries, certain artillery positions, truck drivers, front-line medics etc.
> 
> The reason why it needs to be battle field positions is so women can get a real good taste of what men have gone through,


 Silly me.
 I thought the primary focus of the armed forces was to defend against an enemy, not to carry out a social experiment in gender equality. Women are useful in the defence forces is all sorts of roles and that situation is expanding over time as warfare moves from hand to hand combat in the trenches to computer aided missile attacks. 

However, there is no draft in US, Australia, Canada or the UK so your argument here is moot. As far as I can tell, draft registration is a bureaucratic anachronism that should be discontinued rather than expanded to cover all 18 year olds. When and if ever the draft needs to be resurrected it won't take too long to do the paperwork and if women are required, then so be it. When a national emergency is at hand then we do as we must, whether or not it is fair and just.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

I think we have pretty well exhausted to topic of mandatory military service for women.  So, let's move on.

EQUALITY IN THE FAMILY COURT
This is a topic close to my heart and I am quite passionate about it.  Bluntly putting it, men get shafted in family court. If both the woman AND the man want custody of the children, 99% of the time women win custody and child support payments. The man has next to no chance. 

Please don't tell me about a man you once heard of who won. The fact that a few men occasionally win does not make up for the thousands of men who lose.  

Just once I'd like to see a woman lose her house and children and then be forced to pay through the nose.  The day that happens is the day pigs will fly. Hell, I personally know of a case where the husband was forced to pay child support for 3 children who he never fathered.(He even proved it with DNA test results)

True, not every man wants custody. It is even true that some men are not remotely emotionally equipped to raise children on his own. But some men are able and they love their children every bit as much as any woman. If he is able, and he wants custody, then he should have a realistic chance of gaining custody.

In family court, equal rights is a bad joke.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not a scholar of the Bible but I'm sure you can find references to homosexuals without looking too hard.


Yes, but most references want them put to death. I do think it is rather silent on lesbians though. And absolutely silent on wedding cakes.


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## Traveler (Jan 6, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> Silly me.
> I thought the primary focus of the armed forces was to defend against an enemy, not to carry out a social experiment in gender equality. Women are useful in the defence forces is all sorts of roles and that situation is expanding over time as warfare moves from hand to hand combat in the trenches to computer aided missile attacks.
> 
> However, there is no draft in US, Australia, Canada or the UK so your argument here is moot. As far as I can tell, draft registration is a bureaucratic anachronism that should be discontinued rather than expanded to cover all 18 year olds. When and if ever the draft needs to be resurrected it won't take too long to do the paperwork and if women are required, then so be it. When a national emergency is at hand then we do as we must, whether or not it is fair and just.




You don't live in America, so your entire argument against mandatory military service for women is not relevant. In The United States all 18 year old men MUST register for the draft or face federal felony charges. The is no such law for women.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not a scholar of the Bible but I'm sure you can find references to homosexuals without looking too hard.



It is very easy. Just Google "homosexuality biblical references". This will also lead to some thoughtful scholarly commentaries on the texts that put the words into context. You should explore this issue some time. It is mind expanding, to say the least.


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## nvtribefan (Jan 6, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I thought I had been very clear on what I want for men. In case some people overlooked it, I want men and women to be treated exactly the same when it comes time to being called into military service. In other words, for every man drafted and sent into the battle zone, I want to see a woman sent there as well. If 20,000 soldiers are sent into combat, 10,000 of them should be female.



Absolutely!


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## Camper6 (Jan 7, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> It is very easy. Just Google "homosexuality biblical references". This will also lead to some thoughtful scholarly commentaries on the texts that put the words into context. You should explore this issue some time. It is mind expanding, to say the least.



I'm not talking about scholarly issued and analysis.  I'm talking about the actual words in the Bible.

I'm not going to do any exploring.  It doesn't influence my lifestyle one bit.


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## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

In the U.S., where BOTH the man and the woman want custody, the man is awarded custody in only 17.4% of all cases nation-wide. Out of that number only 24% of women pay any child support. 

In cases where the woman wins custody and child support , it is not at all uncommon for the woman to "punish" the man by interfering with his visitation rights.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> In the U.S., where BOTH the man and the woman want custody, the man is awarded custody in only 17.4% of all cases nation-wide. Out of that number only 24% of women pay any child support.
> 
> In cases where the woman wins custody and child support , it is not at all uncommon for the woman to "punish" the man by interfering with his visitation rights.




Is that what happened to you?
Quite frankly, I think many women would trade the "privileges" you claim we have for the ones men have enjoyed for centuries


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## Camper6 (Jan 7, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Is that what happened to you?
> Quite frankly, I think many women would trade the "privileges" you claim we have for the ones men have enjoyed for centuries



It's -40F here with the windchill factor.  There are guys up on the pole restoring power.  I wouldn't trade places with them if I were you or me.

What privileges are you talking about.?  Give me an example.


----------



## hearlady (Jan 7, 2018)

I think in some of these divorce cases the woman doesn't necessarily want to "screw" her spouse. When lawyers get involved along with in laws and friends sometimes it gets out of control.
I've seen cases when the man says "do whatever you think is best.".He feels he can trust her or maybe guilt on his part prevents him from making wise decisions. His wife may be trustworthy but again outside influences, emotion, etc are involved.
I'm seeing commercials for lawyers soliciting for men who are in these situations. There is some advice given as well as sympathy for the husband and father's side. 
Divorce especially with children involved is rough. People make stupid decisions based on jealousy and anger.
Yes I think the courts swing more to the wife's side and yes I think it needs to be looked at by the courts.


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## hearlady (Jan 7, 2018)

There are no winners and the children are the biggest victims.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 7, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> It's -40F here with the windchill factor.  There are guys up on the pole restoring power.  I wouldn't trade places with them if I were you or me.
> 
> What privileges are you talking about.?  Give me an example.



OMG! Are you really that out of touch with the culture you live in? Women still earn less than men doing the same job. They have had to fight to be given jobs in Firefighting, etc. - and they still face serious discrimination in some jobs and there are a number of areas in the military where women are not exactly welcomed with open arms. How many female CEO's are there. The so-called glass ceiling is a real barrier to women in some areas.
Women could not get credit in their own names until the 70's. In the early years of the 1900's husbands automatically got the children in the rare event of divorce. There was no community property. Those are only a few.
There are plenty more of the sites like below if you are really interested. Yes - there are inequities - on both sides. What is being said on some fronts sounds a lot more like someone who wants to turn back the clock and return to the good old days of patriarchy - someone who very much resents the gains that women have gained. 


http://www.nwhp.org/resources/womens-rights-movement/detailed-timeline/


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## Olivia (Jan 7, 2018)

[h=1]Women—A Growing Trend in Lineman Work[/h]
https://solutions.borderstates.com/women-a-growing-trend-in-lineman-work/


----------



## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Is that what happened to you?
> Quite frankly, I think many women would trade the "privileges" you claim we have for the ones men have enjoyed for centuries




There is no "claim" about it. Women have so many privileges that it would take pages to list all of them. Shall we take just one example ?

Young woman, age 23, reasonably attractive, takes pride in her appearance, well groomed and works in some occupation where she interacts with the public.  1st, she has many men flirting with her. In that manner she gets to "pick and choose". 2nd, she is asked out for a date and she accepts. 3rd, it is a foregone conclusion that HE will pick up the tab for what-ever event they have decided upon. 4th, she knows perfectly well that SHE and SHE alone controls the ****** arena. 5th, she may decide to allow him to kiss her goodnight, then again she may decide, no.

The entire point here is that SHE is in control of the dating situation.  Yes, he might "ask", he might "try" but SHE is the one to allow or not allow. You doubt that ? Compare the 2 following sentences and see which one is the most realistic.  She is talking with her GF and she says, "He was so sweet all night long that I let him kiss me".  Nothing remotely odd about that is there ?  Now lets look at the next sentence. He is talking to his buddy and he says, "She was so much fun that I let her kiss me".  If you overheard the 2nd sentence you most certainly would think. "Wow, what an arrogant jerk. Who does he think he is". 

That, my friends, is one hell of a great series of privileges.


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## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> OMG! Are you really that out of touch with the culture you live in? Women still earn less than men doing the same job. They have had to fight to be given jobs in Firefighting, etc. - and they still face serious discrimination in some jobs and there are a number of areas in the military where women are not exactly welcomed with open arms. How many female CEO's are there. The so-called glass ceiling is a real barrier to women in some areas.
> Women could not get credit in their own names until the 70's. In the early years of the 1900's husbands automatically got the children in the rare event of divorce. There was no community property. Those are only a few.
> There are plenty more of the sites like below if you are really interested. Yes - there are inequities - on both sides. What is being said on some fronts sounds a lot more like someone who wants to turn back the clock and return to the good old days of patriarchy - someone who very much resents the gains that women have gained.
> 
> http://www.nwhp.org/resources/womens-rights-movement/detailed-timeline



The so-called privileges you claim men have are often paid for in blood. Literally !  If you compare the death rates, on the job, men die so often, compared to women dying on the job, that women barely even register on the scale. 

No one gives anything for free. It must be paid for. Often in heavy coin.


----------



## Camper6 (Jan 7, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> OMG! Are you really that out of touch with the culture you live in? Women still earn less than men doing the same job. They have had to fight to be given jobs in Firefighting, etc. - and they still face serious discrimination in some jobs and there are a number of areas in the military where women are not exactly welcomed with open arms. How many female CEO's are there. The so-called glass ceiling is a real barrier to women in some areas.
> Women could not get credit in their own names until the 70's. In the early years of the 1900's husbands automatically got the children in the rare event of divorce. There was no community property. Those are only a few.
> There are plenty more of the sites like below if you are really interested. Yes - there are inequities - on both sides. What is being said on some fronts sounds a lot more like someone who wants to turn back the clock and return to the good old days of patriarchy - someone who very much resents the gains that women have gained.
> 
> ...



Not where I live. N o gender difference in pay.

You want a line mans  wages? Become a linesman.

If the job requires strength any gender that has it can get it.


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## Warrigal (Jan 7, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> I'm not talking about scholarly issued and analysis.  I'm talking about the actual words in the Bible.
> 
> I'm not going to do any exploring.  It doesn't influence my lifestyle one bit.


 Then why get your knickers in a twist when I posted an actual quotation, with the reference, when responding to someone for whom the Bible means a great deal?

By the way, the "actual words" in the Bible were either in Aramaic or ancient Greek. Good luck with those without a commentary.


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## Knight (Jan 7, 2018)

Men will never be equal to women. Give a woman sperm and she will give you a child. Give her a house and she will turn it into a home. Buy groceries and she will make a meal. Give her a smile & she will give you her heart. 


She multiples & enlarges whatever you give her. 


Understanding that a word of caution. Don't give her any crap, she will return a ton of $hit 


Author unknown but a very wise man


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## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

Knight said:


> Men will never be equal to women. Give a woman sperm and she will give you a child. Give her a house and she will turn it into a home. Buy groceries and she will make a meal. Give her a smile & she will give you her heart.
> 
> She multiples & enlarges whatever you give her.
> 
> Understanding that a word of caution. Don't give her any crap, she will return a ton of $hit.




Give ME a pile of lumber and I will build my own home.

Let ME do the grocery shopping and I will create a meal fit for a king.

Give ME an empty space and I will create peace and quiet.

Give ME a dog and I'll have unconditional love and a best friend.

Give ME time and I'll travel the globe, AGAIN


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## Warrigal (Jan 7, 2018)

> Give ME a pile of lumber and I will build my own home.
> Let ME do the grocery shopping and I will create a meal fit for a king.
> Give ME an empty space and I will create peace and quiet.
> Give ME a dog and I'll have unconditional love and a best friend.
> Give ME time and I'll travel the globe, AGAIN



:lol: You see to have missed the point of the last line in Knight's post.
 Don't be surprised if a pile of manure is on its way to your doorstep right now.


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## peppermint (Jan 7, 2018)

Knight said:


> Men will never be equal to women. Give a woman sperm and she will give you a child. Give her a house and she will turn it into a home. Buy groceries and she will make a meal. Give her a smile & she will give you her heart.
> 
> 
> She multiples & enlarges whatever you give her.
> ...



This was a good one, Knight....I never was for the Women's movement...Or whatever they were moving....As a Women that was born in the 50's, I never came upon a man that thought
they were better than Women...My Dad was never like that...He treated me like I was an Angel...The only girl with 2 brothers....He loved my Mom...she worked at home, she was a seamstress.
She did well with her customers....She would make me clothes...that looked better than what you can buy in Macy's....We were not rich....My Dad was a House Painter and was in the National
Guard for 40 years....Of course he brought home most of the money, but my mom did well with making dresses for older women and younger women....Even little girl clothes...
What's going on now with the so called "Stars" wearing black!!!   I won't even discuss that....I won't get political...When I started working when my kiddies were a little older, I went to work...
I worked mostly part time, cause of kiddies in school and I had to be home when they came home from school...As they got older, I was a Secretary in a High School...I did my 25 years and
retired....I do remember some wise guys, but you know, I didn't give it too much attention...In the 80's the school had a Man be the person who took anything that was bothering a Teacher
or a Secretary....Anyone who maybe said something to a man or women that was in the line of being ******....It would be stopped immediately....Our School system wouldn't tolerate nasty comments to anyone....I retired in the 90's and received a pension....I guess I'm of older age, but I do have 2 granddaughter's....I've never heard them say anything about the Women's movement...My oldest granddaughter is in her second year of Nursing School and works in a Hospital part time....She never mentioned anything about her job that men being nasty to her...
My younger granddaughter is 14 yrs old in High School, I know she would probably say something nasty if she was insulted by a boy...She is tough!!! and Smart....
So that's my comment about the Women's movement...If you don't like it, I don't care...


----------



## hearlady (Jan 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Give ME a pile of lumber and I will build my own home.
> 
> Let ME do the grocery shopping and I will create a meal fit for a king.
> 
> ...


Traveler I hope you find someone who only asks for your love and respect. I hope you're not so tainted you can't enjoy some good old fashioned romance without keeping score.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 7, 2018)

> Young woman, age 23, reasonably attractive, takes pride in her  appearance, well groomed and works in some occupation where she  interacts with the public.  1st, she has many men flirting with her.


 by Traveler
And women don't "flirt"" with attractive men?


> In that manner she gets to "pick and choose


And men who do the asking don't get to "choose". Are men or women obligated to accept every invitation they get?


> 3rd, it is a foregone conclusion that HE will pick up the tab for what-ever event they have decided upon.


Actually it's not anymore. The man always paying dates back to when women were not allowed to work out of the home and simply had no income to pay for half the date. That is changing. There are men who are uncomfortable with allowing women to pay half (or all, for that matter) I always offered but was often turned down - and I'm sure there are others who have had the same experience. Are there women who abuse this? sure - just as there are men who abuse it


> 4th, she knows perfectly well that SHE and SHE alone controls the ****** arena


Who should "control" the "******" arena? are either a man or woman obligated to "put out" on demand? A woman should "control" the ****** "arena" for her body - just as a man should for his.


> 5th, she may decide to allow him to kiss her goodnight, then again she may decide, no.


Again, she has the right to decide what happens to her body. She is not obligated to "kiss" anyone she does not wish to - just as a man does not. You seem to be laboring under the very old fashioned idea that a woman owes her date certain ****** favors because he paid for the dinner - or whatever.
You sound like a very bitter angry man who has generalized his anger at a few women to all women. There isn't an individual here who has not probably had an unpleasant experience or relationship with the opposite gender. Your anger may even be somewhat justified, but most of us do get over it and get on with life. You seem to be still be stuck at angry. The sad thing is that you are damaging yourself while those you think did you harm are enjoying life completely oblivious to your feelings. In essence you hurt you more than them.
(All quotes came from Travelers post)


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## Dragonlady (Jan 7, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Give ME a pile of lumber and I will build my own home.
> 
> Let ME do the grocery shopping and I will create a meal fit for a king.
> 
> ...



Been there - done all of the above - and I suspect there are plenty of other women who have done most if not all also.
I'll be glad to elucidate if necessary!
B


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## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

A few people seem to laboring under the delusion that I'm angry. That couldn't be further from the truth. At age 71, I'm happier than I've even been. I have everything I need or could want. 

I have my library, which I keep adding to. There is not a week that goes by where I don't complete a new book.

I have the satisfaction of knowing I've circumnavigated the globe and spent vast amounts of time in 12 different countries.

I have a professionals kitchen where I can create any dish that suits my fancy.

I have the freedom to do as I please, without having to explain anything to anyone.

But, perhaps most importantly, I have peace and quite. The sound of silence is wonderful.

I have learned that I am complete, within myself. 

I crave nothing.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> :lol: You see to have missed the point of the last line in Knight's post.
> Don't be surprised if a pile of manure is on its way to your doorstep right now.




And you seem to have forgotten that I've chosen to live sans woman. There is no one to give me any crap.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Traveler I hope you find someone who only asks for your love and respect. I hope you're not so tainted you can't enjoy some good old fashioned romance without keeping score.



Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment. But I'm all done trying to please someone else. I'm content.


----------



## Warrigal (Jan 7, 2018)

You seem to have forgotten the many women you interact with on this forum.

For the record, and as indicated by the :lol:, I was just joshing you.
Perhaps you should live with someone (platonically, of course) for a bit to lighten you up with a bit of teasing.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

Warrigal said:


> You seem to have forgotten the many women you interact with on this forum.
> 
> For the record, and as indicated by the :lol:, I was just joshing you.
> Perhaps you should live with someone (platonically, of course) for a bit to lighten you up with a bit of teasing.




Hmm. Joshing is it ? "Don't be surprised if a pile of manure is on the way to my doorstep right now"?  Strange sense of joshing.


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## Warrigal (Jan 7, 2018)

Aussie humour doesn't always translate well in the Northern Hemisphere.


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## Stormy (Jan 7, 2018)

Traveler I looked through your thread and I feel for you and can guess what you've been through and why you feel this way toward women. I have a old time friend and his wife really did him dirty she played around on him and took him to the cleaners in court. He ended up with nothing but a broken heart because his kids loved him and he lost them too in the divorce. He moved out of the state and hardly sees any of them as if he was punished for her infidelity and from what I saw in their relationship she was really a bi*ch.  But not all women are that way and I hope that one day you will meet one who cares for you and is not so overbearing and heartless. I like what hearlady said about maybe you finding someone who respects you and wants a life partner. If not at least you're content with your life now so that's good

I've done heavy work since I was young and helped my dad work on cars and worked with men on an equal level with equal pay but I would not be able to perform equally to a man in the military. I don't know if they will ever draft women here but there are special favors given to women in the service I heard about that years ago http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryReview/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20150430_art009.pdf


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## Traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

I haven't the foggiest idea of what half of the posters are talking about.  There is, however, one common recurring theme.  Some people have decide to attempt to divine my thoughts and emotions. I find this rather humorous. They don't like what I have to say, so they attempt to discredit me by suggesting or outright stating that there must be something wrong with me. 

Well, all I can say is, if it gives them some sense of superiority, then ok. No problem. Enjoy yourselves. 

For those people who have sent posts of kindness and support, I thank you.


----------



## Chucktin (Jan 8, 2018)

Traveler - I wish you had edited your OP to be clearer and concise. 

I believe that, and my life-experience has shown me, that some discussions veer into emotional issues that will never yield to any logical study.

Gender roles, being one of them. They are part and parcel of personal identity and discussions of them are often considered an attack. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Camper6 (Jan 8, 2018)

Females always stick together and beat up on a guy trying to explain himself.

The odd time a guy will join in but just to stir the pot.

Adios amigos.


----------



## peppermint (Jan 8, 2018)

To each his/her own....I didn't have a problem with Men when I worked in the workforce...If I did, I would let him know....Not go crying to my superior....because that man would never 
say a nasty word again to me....I was married at 20 yrs. old to a great man...Am I lucky?  Maybe, because we talk....We are not the "Movie Stars", we are people who work and take care of
our family....Maybe I'm from a different generation...But I contributed to our working habits....It wasn't "It's my money"  It was ours.. One bank account...And guess what?  I handle the finances...
since we have been married....If you're not happy with America that it is....Go someplace else place to live...
To Stormy...I would never be able to be in the Service....I know so many who have not come home and some who have died young from their injuries...
Us Women were made different...


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## Dragonlady (Jan 8, 2018)

peppermint said:


> To each his/her own....I didn't have a problem with Men when I worked in the workforce...If I did, I would let him know....Not go crying to my superior....because that man would never
> say a nasty word again to me....I was married at 20 yrs. old to a great man...Am I lucky?  Maybe, because we talk....We are not the "Movie Stars", we are people who work and take care of
> our family....Maybe I'm from a different generation...But I contributed to our working habits....It wasn't "It's my money"  It was ours.. One bank account...And guess what?  I handle the finances...
> since we have been married....If you're not happy with America that it is....Go someplace else place to live...
> ...




Moving to another country would hardly solve the problem. It's world wide and is widely documented. Not every woman is raised in an environment that encourages assertiveness and not every male is raised in an environment that encourages respect for women. Some have to learn the hard way.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 8, 2018)

peppermint said:


> If you're not happy with America that it is....Go someplace else place to live...
> To Stormy...I would never be able to be in the Service....I know so many who have not come home and some who have died young from their injuries...
> Us Women were made different...



Speak for yourself. Maybe you were "made different" but many of us weren't. I considered joining the military when I was a young woman but the rules for women back then were downright repressive and oppressive.

Good grief, I thought that old America love it or leave it crap was part of the past. This country was founded by dissenters. No reason for that to change.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 8, 2018)

In an attempt to put this thread back on track, I once again ask the question: "If young men are required to register for the draft, then should young women also be required to do the same ?


----------



## Olivia (Jan 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> In an attempt to put this thread back on track, I once again ask the question: "If young men are required to register for the draft, then should young women also be required to do the same ?



Yes. As long as the men in charge will stop creating wars that sends it's citizens to go fight them. 

I'm done.


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## Stormy (Jan 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> In an attempt to put this thread back on track, I once again ask the question: "If young men are required to register for the draft, then should young women also be required to do the same ?


I say to be fair yes but I also say that nobody should be drafted in this country the military service should be voluntary IMO


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## Stormy (Jan 8, 2018)

Olivia said:


> I really do believe that Traveler has been hurt, and still living with that in his gut and wanting to express it. I don't think it was a good way to do it by blaming his hurt on  the rest us, but I say let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and leave it at that.


I say the same Olivia


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> In an attempt to put this thread back on track, I once again ask the question: "If young men are required to register for the draft, then should young women also be required to do the same ?



Absolutely, but before then the military needs to make itself safe for women. It certainly isn't now. Women in the military deserve equal rights.

I keep asking if you were drafted and that's why this matters so much to you. No answer, which I suppose is an answer.


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## HipGnosis (Jan 8, 2018)

Stormy said:


> I say to be fair yes but I also say that nobody should be drafted in this country the military service should be voluntary IMO



What do you propose we do when not enough volunteer??


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## HipGnosis (Jan 8, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Absolutely, but before then the military needs to make itself safe for women. It certainly isn't now. Women in the military deserve equal rights.


Please expand what you mean.   
Presuming you mean safe from ****** harassment; is there anywhere women are safer?

In my 20 years of service, I came to the conclusion that the military is the most equal for all; sex, race, nationality...  Equal pay, equal opportunity to advance (even w/o the requirement to combat duty). Yes, there were/are physical requirements and limits, but that's because of the nature of the possible demands.


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## Traveler (Jan 8, 2018)

Smiling Jane said:


> Absolutely, but before then the military needs to make itself safe for women. It certainly isn't now. Women in the military deserve equal rights.
> 
> I keep asking if you were drafted and that's why this matters so much to you. No answer, which I suppose is an answer.




Whether I was drafted, or not, is of no consequence.  But, for your general fund of information, it *IS *possible for a person to advocate for something without having any possible personal gain. Example: I strongly, repeat strongly, advocate for the rights of African-Americans to be free from police brutality. I do this in spite of the fact I happen to be white.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 8, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Whether I was drafted, or not, is of no consequence.  But, for your general fund of information, it *IS *possible for a person to advocate for something without having any possible personal gain. Example: I strongly, repeat strongly, advocate for the rights of African-Americans to be free from police brutality. I do this in spite of the fact I happen to be white.



More deflection; you still did not answer the question. You are advocating for something you, yourself, were not subject to. It's called hypocrisy. As for your question yes I am for a draft of ALL 18 year olds I previously addressed it:


> current population will have a mix of ideas on the subject.
> As for the whole military issue. Most military personnel have  traditionally been dead set against allowing women into the military at  all. Little by little women are changing that. As for the draft, that's  almost laughable. There are just as many men , as well as women that  would be strongly against it. Probably more. The ****** assault issue is  a serious problem that will have to be dealt with before many parents  will be positive about having their daughters drafted . Not many parents  are going to be too enthusiastic about their daughters being put into  an environment where ****** assault is practically a given. Many men  already in the military say they feel they are more at risk with a  female - especially in the more "Macho" branches.


There are many issues to be addressed before there is "equity". If military service is to be mandatory then refusal or acceptance of women is certain segments of the military service will have to be made on ability - not gender like they have been. Opportunities for advancement will have to be available for women not as they have been. There are a bunch more which I won't go into now.


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## Warrigal (Jan 8, 2018)

HipGnosis said:


> What do you propose we do when not enough volunteer??


Bring the current troops back to the homeland. There will be more than enough to defend it.


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## Smiling Jane (Jan 8, 2018)

HipGnosis said:


> Please expand what you mean.
> Presuming you mean safe from ****** harassment; is there anywhere women are safer?
> 
> In my 20 years of service, I came to the conclusion that the military is the most equal for all; sex, race, nationality...  Equal pay, equal opportunity to advance (even w/o the requirement to combat duty). Yes, there were/are physical requirements and limits, but that's because of the nature of the possible demands.



I'm talking about rape, not ****** harassment but actual rape. It's estimated that 1 in 3 women in the U.S. military has been raped while on duty, many of them more than once. They get in trouble for reporting it, either court-martialed or discharged.

https://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/31/military.sexabuse/index.html


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## Knight (Jan 9, 2018)

As happens a topic will veer off. Equality being the original thread concept the op cited a few areas between the sexes. Nothing profound in that is there? 


The problem I see with that is what used to be isn't any more. 


This works for me as being able to point to difference.


Women as having the role of being only capable of domestic duties. NOT!
https://www.nawbo.org/resources/women-business-owner-statistics


Women in the military.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military


Child custody
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...re-women-losing-custody-battles-children.html


Rather than be stuck in what roles men & women are thought to have. I tend to look at what changes have taken place as being for the better.


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## HipGnosis (Jan 9, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> . You are advocating for something you, yourself, were not subject to. It's called hypocrisy.


You are wrong.  Very wrong.  It is 'empathy'.   You should learn the word.  And learn to practice it.   As all should.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 9, 2018)

HipGnosis said:


> You are wrong.  Very wrong.  It is 'empathy'.   You should learn the word.  And learn to practice it.   As all should.



Huh? That makes absolutely no sense. One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and oranges


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 10, 2018)

Here is another quote to ponder.
_
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured."_ -  Mark Twain


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## Camper6 (Jan 10, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> Again, it is condescending - implying women mindlessly follow the leader



Never implied that at all.  That's your over imagination working overtime again.

Just look at the posts.

Have the men all stuck together here or were there some dissenting opinions?

Where there any dissenting opinions from the females side of things or are they all in agreement?

I find that quite often.  Even take a look on media and the men dissenting with those who are taking advantage and committing ****** assaults .

We had a saying at work.  Never hire a guy for a salesman if he has been accused of rape.


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## Camper6 (Jan 10, 2018)

Olivia said:


> So, Traveler, if a female poster started a thread stating that the male members of the human species are nothing but Neanderthal hulks that use women, would you and other males on this board not be all over the thread disputing that claim?



We would immediately point out to you that we believe in the theory of evolution and are no longer Neandethal hulks.

Men have a predeliction of using logic in their arguments.


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## Camper6 (Jan 10, 2018)

This is many moons ago.  

At our golf couse.  Tuesdays was ladies day so they had a special lunch at a reduced price.

One of our males sat down and ordered the ladies lunch.  They said it was for ladies only.

He said it wasn't fair that ladies had special privileges.

Guess if he won his point?   This is many moons ago.  The guy was a doctor.


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## Camper6 (Jan 10, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Not necessarily on this thread.



Well then. Don't post theoretical arguments.


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## Olivia (Jan 10, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> We would immediately point out to you that we believe in the theory of evolution and are no longer Neandethal hulks.
> 
> Men have a predeliction of using logic in their arguments.



Exactly. You would feel justified in disputing that assertion.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 10, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Yeah? I celebrated a 50 year anniversary, so what?  No I'm not getting a wicked kick at all.  I'm just pointing out exactly what has been posted and responding to it.



And so are the rest of us.


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## Traveler (Jan 10, 2018)

I have noticed one hell of a lot of posts where  people have invented scenarios to support their claims.  No one has said, on this thread, that women are stupid or that they are not capable of doing a wide variety of jobs. As a matter of fact I have posted that women could easily do many jobs in the military and most other areas. But that has been totally ignored. 

However, when I am told that women can do *anything *that a man can do, I find that exceedingly naïve.  I am even told that a woman can beat a man in the boxing ring.  Well, I suppose that is true if the man is *elderly *and the woman is young, fit and highly trained. At age 71, with a bum ticker I have no doubt that a trained martial artist female could do a job on me. But what does that prove ? Absolutely nothing !

Now, SifuPhil has stated that a woman could, within the same weight class and with the same training, do quite well against a man.
Really ?  Manny Pacquaio weighs 145 lbs and stands 5'6" and is considered the greatest pound for pound boxer that ever lived. Are people so out of touch with reality that they actually think ANY woman could last more than a few seconds against Manny ?

Women have brought up the subject of rape as evidence that they have suffered. What rape has to do with the subject of this thread ?  I advocated in the OP that men and women should be treated exactly the same way when it comes to being required to register for the draft. 
I have advocated that men should be given a fair chance to gain custody of their child. Why is that so threatening ?


----------



## Olivia (Jan 10, 2018)

I don't know? Maybe life is not fair--for anyone?


----------



## C'est Moi (Jan 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I have noticed one hell of a lot of posts where  people have invented scenarios to support their claims.  No one has said, on this thread, that women are stupid or that they are not capable of doing a wide variety of jobs. As a matter of fact I have posted that women could easily do many jobs in the military and most other areas. But that has been totally ignored.
> 
> However, when I am told that women can do *anything *that a man can do, I find that exceedingly naïve.  I am even told that a woman can beat a man in the boxing ring.  Well, I suppose that is true if the man is *elderly *and the woman is young, fit and highly trained. At age 71, with a bum ticker I have no doubt that a trained martial artist female could do a job on me. But what does that prove ? Absolutely nothing !
> 
> ...



It's not the message; it's the delivery.   And you know that very well.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 10, 2018)

Honestly, Traveler, I'm fairly certain you do feel genuinely unhappy about how some things have gone in your life because of what some other people have done to you. You don't say what they were, so it's really not easy to totally understand. I'm not going to say you're not justified, because personally for you, I'm sure you are. I don't think arguing on a message board about it, though, is really the best way to go. But, we all have our reasons.


----------



## Traveler (Jan 10, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Honestly, Traveler, I'm fairly certain you do feel genuinely unhappy about how some things have gone in your life because of what some other people have done to you. You don't say what they were, so it's really not easy to totally understand. I'm not going to say you're not justified, because personally for you, I'm sure you are. I don't think arguing on a message board about it, though, is really the best way to go. But, we all have our reasons.



I appreciate your fair post.  I was never trying to argue anything about my feelings on the message board. All I was attempting to do was to get people to think about equally and fairness as it relates to both men and women. It was never my intention to argue that women should not have equal rights.  I merely wished to state that men also have some valid complaints. But unfortunately, that concept threatens some people.


----------



## Olivia (Jan 10, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I appreciate your fair post.  I was never trying to argue anything about my feelings on the message board. All I was attempting to do was to get people to think about equally and fairness as it relates to both men and women. It was never my intention to argue that women should not have equal rights.  I merely wished to state that men also have some valid complaints. But unfortunately, that concept threatens some people.



Misunderstandings do happen on message boards all the time. The way you stated your argument just now would not have threatened anyone and would probably have gathered a lot of agreements. For those who wouldn't have--agreed, that is-- then that where that agree to disagree comes in.


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## Traveler (Jan 10, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Misunderstandings do happen on message boards all the time. The way you stated your argument just now would not have threatened anyone and would probably have gathered a lot of agreements. For those who wouldn't have--agreed, that is-- then that where that agree to disagree comes in.



Thank you.  This seems like a good place for me to step out of this thread. It is just going in circles anyway.


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## Olivia (Jan 11, 2018)

Good, I appreciate that Camper. My dad only retired three years ago at 87 at a very important upper management job. He's now almost 91 and he still has the love and respect of the people that had been under him because of the person he was during that time and still gets together with them all the time. He's just about to turn 91 and my deepest fear is eventually losing him.

God bless you, Camper.


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## HiDesertHal (Jan 12, 2018)

Eventually women will have all the advantages that men have, but it's still be a long way off.

(In Israel, women must serve a mandatory term in the Military, just like the men.)

Keep punchin' gals...I'm with you!

HiDesertHal


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## Camper6 (Jan 12, 2018)

My friend is deathly afraid of being stopped by a female patrol officer.

His (quoted) claim.

       [h=1]“But her heart was so cold that she could hold ice in her mouth and it would never melt.”[/h]


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> For the last 100 years women have been demanding, and receiving, more and more equality. Ok, fair enough ! But should this not also be a 2-way street ?
> 
> What about men ? Do we not also deserve equality ? Men, overwhelmingly, are still considered the primary bread winners. True, some women do out earn men, but that is a tiny fraction of all 2 income households. The primary responsibility for all men, world-wide, is to provide. In todays world, that is an outmoded sexist concept. It needs to change.
> 
> ...



Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature  ).

I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again. 

Fathers rights is an area I feel I have some knowledge of when those kinds of discussions break out, and yet calls for equality in that area of public policy tend to lead to a situation where both parents have "equally few rights" rather than anything truly positive in my view. The old argument recognising differences between men and women's role both before the child is born and in the first year afterwards come to mind. Obviously men cannot carry the baby, and hence do not put their lives, and their figures at risk doing so, and men can't breastfeed the child, once again obviously, so how can family law recognise those facts whilst achieving the level of equality before the law some seek.

I have much sympathy for most of the other arguments in the OP however, and yet remember a case where I used to work regarding a particularly dirty job loading an incinerator. The female members of staff were reluctant to do the work and I supported them because if you have long hair, as most of the girls did, then you can understand them not wanting to work where it was so smokey and unpleasant, and have the smell sticking to them, though I admit it was an example of double standards.


----------



## Sunny (Jan 14, 2018)

Many of the points made by Traveler in his post are dated and obsolete, and have been considered passe for many years now. (Such as who initiates dates and marriage proposals).  This is beating a dead horse.
And what do those things have to do with "rights," anyway?

The long hair issue is also pretty irrelevant. Some men have long hair, and if someone is doing that kind of work, whether they are male or female, they should be required to tuck their hair up into a hat or hair net, etc.  Not exactly a "rights" issue.

How about concentrating on how much pay each person gets for doing the same work?


----------



## HiDesertHal (Jan 14, 2018)

Yes, there should be Gender Equality without question, but I'm afraid this may never be, because Men are in charge and will probably *always* be in charge of all Earthly Ventures, even though Women have gained token advances.

What the world needs are more Theresa Mays governing all civilized regions of the world.

I'm sure that if Women were the leaders of the civilized world, they could find places for Men to fit in.

But if Artificial Intelligence ever reached a critical breakthrough, then Sexless Robots would rule the world, ending Genderism! 
_
Harold_


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## Dragonlady (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature  ).
> 
> I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again.
> 
> ...


Hair is really no excuse for any woman not to do their job. There are caps women can wear to protect their hair. That would be an abuse.


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## Camper6 (Jan 14, 2018)

Equal pay for equal work?

What is equal work?

Here in Ontario, such a law was passed.  A secretary should get as much pay as the parking lot attendant was one example.

But here's the problem.  The secretaries don't want the parking lot attendant's job when it comes up for bid.  Because it's cold, it's raining, it's snowing, it needs maintenance so I don't consider the jobs equal.  So now they have to hire a guy and if he goes for a raise, the secretaries should get one too.

Madness.  Sheer madness trying to equate work in terms of equality.  

On the other hand my son worked part time in the university he attended  as a cameraman.

He got a raise because the females rates were legislated up.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Lets see if the thread really has reached its conclusion or can be revived (rumours of its demise being premature  ).
> 
> I can't explain why its taken so long to grab my interest but so many interesting and important questions were raised in the OP I thought it worth dragging up again.
> 
> ...



As there is some interest in keeping this thread alive, I'll continue.
It has been my contention, from the beginning, that men do not have all of the special privileges that women do. Being exempt from registering for the draft is but one of those special privileges. If women want totally equal rights, then they must shoulder the exact same responsibilities. Period. 

I said previously, and I'll say it once more, any law that requires young men to register for the draft but NOT young women, is a law based of unconstitutional concepts.  When one segment of society is required to do something, or prohibited from doing something, but another segment is exempt because of gender or race, religion etc, then that is clearly unconstitutional.  

Women can not demand equal rights and then turn around and claim exemption because of gender. There are a number of burdens required of all its citizens. Taxes is one of those burdens required of all working citizens. The law which required one group to pay taxes and exempt a different group, would be struck down in the federal court system immediately.  Thus, it is the same with selective service registration. Equal rights require equal burdens.


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

*Hair issue*



Dragonlady said:


> Hair is really no excuse for any woman not to do their job. There are caps women can wear to protect their hair. That would be an abuse.




Believe me those girls would rather have left their jobs than tackle the work I described, and why waste everyone's time and jeopardise the whole contract (should they leave), if the men in the end were not really bothered whether it "wasn't fair" in gender equalities terms?

I know there have been changes to the weights staff are supposed to lift, so both sexes can generally cope, (and as I've got older I appreciate the smaller weights too), so yes there is a progression in these kinds of jobs, but there has to be a limit somewhere, and no one was stopping those girls doing the dirty work if they so wished. 

Don't you find all the emphasis on gender equality a bit boring BTW (and whilst I'm chancing my arm, "good on Catherine Deneuve" for her recent comments  ).


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Many of the points made by Traveler in his post are dated and obsolete, and have been considered passe for many years now. (Such as who initiates dates and marriage proposals).  This is beating a dead horse.
> And what do those things have to do with "rights," anyway?
> 
> The long hair issue is also pretty irrelevant. Some men have long hair, and if someone is doing that kind of work, whether they are male or female, they should be required to tuck their hair up into a hat or hair net, etc.  Not exactly a "rights" issue.
> ...




Maybe you're right so far as marriage proposals moving on etc. goes, at least in Western countries, although I think my future wife "lead me up the garden path" forty years ago.

However those experts who study human behaviour talk of the "tells", the little signals we maybe subconsciously let slip showing who we might be attracted to, have maybe always been the same, and as I often say on threads like this one, "they tell me human nature does not change quickly" or even over millennia.

Equal pay for the same work was the practise where I used to be employed, so no arguments there, and the chairman and owner of the company would not have it any other way.


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> As there is some interest in keeping this thread alive, I'll continue.
> It has been my contention, from the beginning, that men do not have all of the special privileges that women do. Being exempt from registering for the draft is but one of those special privileges. If women want totally equal rights, then they must shoulder the exact same responsibilities. Period.
> 
> I said previously, and I'll say it once more, any law that requires young men to register for the draft but NOT young women, is a law based of unconstitutional concepts.  When one segment of society is required to do something, or prohibited from doing something, but another segment is exempt because of gender or race, religion etc, then that is clearly unconstitutional.
> ...



I know this is going to sound dreadful but I suspect there will never be political support for creating an army, (or platoon/brigade or section made up solely of women). The purpose of the exercise I'm suggesting being to see how well they fought when they came up against a predominantly male army, or whatever group of male troops they might be fighting, say clearing a bombed out city of enemy forces.

I'm not suggesting women cannot do such brave things, because I know they did take part in battles during WWII, especially in the Soviet army, but so far as I know never without men around them, and in predominantly male forces.

We'll never see the level of equality you're suggesting in my view, and I do feel there has to be limits in all things.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> I know this is going to sound dreadful but I suspect there will never be political support for creating an army, (or platoon/brigade or section made up solely of women). The purpose of the exercise I'm suggesting being to see how well they fought when they came up against a predominantly male army, or whatever group of male troops they might be fighting, say clearing a bombed out city of enemy forces.
> 
> I'm not suggesting women cannot do such brave things, because I know they did take part in battles during WWII, especially in the Soviet army, but so far as I know never without men around them, and in predominantly male forces.
> 
> We'll never see the level of equality you're suggesting in my view, and I do feel there has to be limits in all things.



I disagree. There are literally hundreds of jobs in the military that women can do.  In todays high-tech push button world, there is absolutely no possible reason why women can not man anti-aircraft batteries, drive trucks, or even tanks (the Israeli Army has female tank drivers). They can be trained as battlefield medics and a hundred other support positions.

I am not suggesting that there would be COMBAT units made up ENTIRELY of females. I am only suggesting that women be REQUIRED to bear some of the burden that men have always borne. 

In any event, the main issue is one of MANDATED REGISTRATION of ALL citizens at the age of 18.


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## Olivia (Jan 14, 2018)

It's interesting. We know of plenty of men that have gotten deferments because of bad arches, etc.Those guys could have served in the capacities you've mentioned, Traveler. So before worrying about the equality of the draft, how about it making it fair for everyone in the first place?


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

Olivia said:


> It's interesting. We know of plenty of men that have gotten deferments because of bad arches, etc.Those guys could have served in the capacities you've mentioned, Traveler. So before worrying about the equality of the draft, how about it making it fair for everyone in the first place?



Any deferment that MEN have gotten in the past would apply to WOMEN.  I repeat, ALL citizens must register for the draft. THEN AND ONLY THEN are deferments considered. REGISTER FIRST !


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## hearlady (Jan 14, 2018)

Ok if the topic is equality for men then yes, there should be equality for men. Is this solved now?


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## hearlady (Jan 14, 2018)

Differences in men and women aren't the same as equality between the sexes. 
Write to your congressman Traveler. He's the only one who can help you.


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> I disagree. There are literally hundreds of jobs in the military that women can do.  In todays high-tech push button world, there is absolutely no possible reason why women can not man anti-aircraft batteries, drive trucks, or even tanks (the Israeli Army has female tank drivers). They can be trained as battlefield medics and a hundred other support positions.
> 
> I am not suggesting that there would be COMBAT units made up ENTIRELY of females. I am only suggesting that women be REQUIRED to bear some of the burden that men have always borne.
> 
> In any event, the main issue is one of MANDATED REGISTRATION of ALL citizens at the age of 18.




Can I agree and disagree with you at the same time, is that okay?

I agree with all you say about the combat roles women can and do perform. However, my point concerned a purely hypothetical scenario where units formed solely of women are set against forces that are all or mostly male, and I don't believe there will ever be the political will to allow such units to enter active service in these circumstances, "just to se how well they performed".

I know the fighting prowess of troops from different European nations during WWII has been examined in great detail, and I believe the Slovenians (or Estonians?) were amongst the most formidable troops in the battle field (is it a kill rate versus the enemy per soldier, compared to one's own losses?). So those planning military campaigns will have to consider these issues as they relate to female forces wont they, even though historical data may be somewhat limited.


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

hearlady said:


> Differences in men and women aren't the same as equality between the sexes.
> Write to your congressman Traveler. He's the only one who can help you.



Surely if we are all equal then it follows we must all be the same?

I know you meant "all people are assumed equal before the law", or should be considered that way.

Just one last point, I think you're being a bit proscriptive as to where a fellow forum member might seek assistance (should he really need the assistance you seem to think he does).


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## HiDesertHal (Jan 14, 2018)

"Rosie the Riveter" built the Planes, Tanks, & Ships that won WW2!

HiDesertHal


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## SifuPhil (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Surely if we are all equal then it follows we must all be the same?



Except in the legal sense, as you mentioned, not necessarily.

Two objects - humans included - can be equal in many ways, even 99.9% of them, yet be totally different.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

HiDesertHal said:


> "Rosie the Riveter" built the Planes, Tanks, & Ships that won WW2!
> 
> HiDesertHal



I totally agree that "Rosie was a HUGE help during WW2


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

The over-arching question remains, "Is equal rights a one-way street or does it work BOTH ways"  If it works both ways, then equal responsibility/burden applies.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Believe me those girls would rather have left their jobs than tackle the work I described, and why waste everyone's time and jeopardise the whole contract (should they leave), if the men in the end were not really bothered whether it "wasn't fair" in gender equalities terms?
> 
> I know there have been changes to the weights staff are supposed to lift, so both sexes can generally cope, (and as I've got older I appreciate the smaller weights too), so yes there is a progression in these kinds of jobs, but there has to be a limit somewhere, and no one was stopping those girls doing the dirty work if they so wished.
> 
> Don't you find all the emphasis on gender equality a bit boring BTW (and whilst I'm chancing my arm, "good on Catherine Deneuve" for her recent comments  ).


First, I respectfully disagree on allowing women to get away with the refusal to do their job. The more this kind of behavior is allowed, the more we will have to contend with it.
I would imagine the issue of gender equality would not be as important to many - if not most - men, but I suspect it is one of varying importance to most women in terms of how it affects their life. I can't speak for other women, but the issue became important to me the first time someone told me I couldn't do something because I was a girl.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

Dragonlady said:


> First, I respectfully disagree on allowing women to get away with the refusal to do their job. The more this kind of behavior is allowed, the more we will have to contend with it.
> I would imagine the issue of gender equality would not be as important to many - if not most - men, but I suspect it is one of varying importance to most women in terms of how it affects their life. I can't speak for other women, but the issue became important to me the first time someone told me I couldn't do something because I was a girl.



I agree. A person, male or female, who can not do the job they were hired for does not deserve the job.  Case in point, when I was about 19 years old I applied for a job as a concrete worker. I was hired but before lunch it was clear that I could not keep up with the other men who were much stronger than me. Clearly, I had no right to that job. It had zero to do with gender. It had everything to do with shear brute strength. I am no supporter of lowering the standards so any particular person or group can compete.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

Since no one has been able to successfully argue that women should be exempt from being required to register for the draft, the same as men, I'll move right along.

Custody of children.  I speak only about the men who want custody. Clearly some men do not wish to have custody, but there are many men who do. Men have made some slight gains in family courts regarding who wins custody of a child/children.  But those men who do actually win custody are few and far between. The judges, both male and female, are overwhelmingly biased in favor of the mother. This is an outmoded concept. 

If it is reasonable to say that some women have the ability to be firefighters then it is equally reasonable to say that some men are excellent care-givers. It is just as reasonable to say that men can love their children every bit as much as any woman. All I ask for here is a fair deal, one that is NOT BASED SOLEY ON GENDER.  It, of course, goes without saying that the welfare of the child/children must take priority.


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## HiDesertHal (Jan 14, 2018)

Hell no!  Women should not be drafted, but the draft should be reinstated nevertheless!

I volunteered for the draft in 1960 and was immediately called up.  In my Basic Training platoon, there were several who Enlisted. 

They were Regular Army (RA), with a 3-year enlistment.

I was a Draftee (US), with a 2-year enlistment, and was honorably discharged just like those who enlisted, but my tour of duty
was over one year sooner than theirs!

SP/4 Harold I. Pollner,
US 56332718

Hal


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

HiDesertHal said:


> Hell no!  Women should not be drafted, but the draft should be reinstated nevertheless!
> 
> I volunteered for the draft in 1960 and was immediately called up.  In my Basic Training platoon, there were several who enlisted.
> 
> ...



Why should women NOT be drafted ? Should they be granted special privileges based upon gender ?


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Since no one has been able to successfully argue that women should be exempt from being required to register for the draft, the same as men, I'll move right along.
> 
> Custody of children.  I speak only about the men who want custody. Clearly some men do not wish to have custody, but there are many men who do. Men have made some slight gains in family courts regarding who wins custody of a child/children.  But those men who do actually win custody are few and far between. The judges, both male and female, are overwhelmingly biased in favor of the mother. This is an outmoded concept.
> 
> If it is reasonable to say that some women have the ability to be firefighters then it is equally reasonable to say that some men are excellent care-givers. It is just as reasonable to say that men can love their children every bit as much as any woman. All I ask for here is a fair deal, one that is NOT BASED SOLEY ON GENDER.  It, of course, goes without saying that the welfare of the child/children must take priority.



Here we depart I'm afraid, on the move to make men equally responsible for caregiving to children, or open all that up again.

Ultimately I believe these moves will make no one happy. I don't believe most men want it, certainly women support the current system because it essentially protects their role (I agree with you there), and as far as the children goes, in my view you cannot have "two mothers" successfully following divorce (not a point about same sex marriage here, just the man and woman supposedly taking on the same roles). My child needed the more or less constant presence of one of her biological parents in her life during her formative years and beyond. Someone had to take a lesser role in my view, "important" but nonetheless less significant than her mothers role. That stability, plus whatever contribution I was able to provide created a very level headed child, who was a pleasure to be with and a credit to all.

I argue with your last point totally, though it will take too long to explain why I feel so strongly about this, quote:_ It, of course, goes without saying that the welfare of the child/children must take priority. _


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 14, 2018)

IMO it goes beyond ****** assault.  I think that many men and women are so caught up in the stereotypical gender roles that it could be dangerous for both the men and the women to serve in the same military unit.  In some situations it would be the male feeling an obligation to protect or lookout for the women.  In other cases it would be a man that feels he is smarter, stronger, etc... and a woman should just fall in behind him and do what she is told or better yet stay out of the way.

I don't have a problem with men and women serving in a volunteer military but I do feel strongly that they should not serve together in the same unit.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Here we depart I'm afraid, on the move to make men equally responsible for caregiving to children, or open all that up again.
> *
> Ultimately I believe these moves will make no one happy*. I don't believe most men want it, certainly women support the current system because it essentially protects their role (I agree with you there), and as far as the children goes, in my view you cannot have "two mothers" successfully following divorce (not a point about same sex marriage here, just the man and woman supposedly taking on the same roles). My child needed the more or less constant presence of one of her biological parents in her life during her formative years and beyond. Someone had to take a lesser role in my view, "important" but nonetheless less significant than her mothers role. That stability, plus whatever contribution I was able to provide created a very level headed child, who was a pleasure to be with and a credit to all.
> 
> I argue with your last point totally, though it will take too long to explain why I feel so strongly about this, quote:_ It, of course, goes without saying that the welfare of the child/children must take priority. _




If I had won custody of my daughter it sure as hell would have made me happy.

Men and women have different styles of raising children. There is no two mothers about it. Just two parents. I feel you are confusing child rearing with motherhood and labeling the caregiver as a "mother". At no point when I was caring for my daughter did I identify myself as "mother".

I am confused about why you would disagree that the welfare of the child should take priority ?  Really confused !


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO it goes beyond ****** assault.  I think that many men and women are so caught up in the stereotypical gender roles that it could be dangerous for both the men and the women to serve in the same military unit.  In some situations it would be the male feeling an obligation to protect or lookout for the women.  In other cases it would be a man that feels he is smarter, stronger, etc... and a woman should just fall in behind him and do what she is told or better yet stay out of the way.
> 
> I don't have a problem with men and women serving in a volunteer military but I do feel strongly that they should not serve together in the same unit.



Do you have a problem with women serving as battlefield nurses ?


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## jujube (Jan 14, 2018)

HiDesertHal said:


> "Rosie the Riveter" built the Planes, Tanks, & Ships that won WW2!
> 
> HiDesertHal



Good post, Hal. Yes, women doing "men's" jobs.........and when the men returned at the end of the war, the "Rosie's" were told to go home and be good little wives and mothers and leave the jobs to the men.  Not much equality there, but then as certain posters on this board feel, there is equality and then there is "equality".


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## Aunt Bea (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> Do you have a problem with women serving as battlefield nurses ?



No, why nurses?

I don't have a problem with women serving in any position.

The military and war has evolved over the years.  The days of digging trenches by hand and brute force one on one combat are pretty much a thing of the past.  

I think that today a properly trained young woman could handle any duty that needs to be performed. 

I think the key is a woman or a man volunteering to serve and then keeping them in separate units.


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## Olivia (Jan 14, 2018)

And who has sent men (or anyone) to war? Other men, that's who. Maybe you might try being pissed about that?

But you might have something there. If our Congress (and higher) had to send their daughters to war, maybe they might think twice about being so quick about war altogether. But you know darn well, anyone with any kind of pull and power would see to it that only other people's daughters (and sons) would have to serve at all.

Maybe get mad about that inequality.


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## Dragonlady (Jan 14, 2018)

Traveler said:


> You claim I am maintaining an aura of superiority over women. I did not say, or imply that. You saying it does not make it true.
> 
> Women are sexually assaulted in and out of the military. I don't see any special distinction. If a woman is assaulted, she should file a charge. If the man is found guilty he should pay the price with prison time and a dishonorable discharge.


 
Wrong! I did not specify the gender of the "inferior beings". You jumped to that conclusion all on your own. Dealing with ****** assault/rape is, of course, in need of greater enforcement both in private life and in the military; however, in the military, women have a greatly decreased choice of who, what, where and when while there are greater choices in private life.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

I give up. I can't handle the tag-team. I have been out-numbered and worn down. One giant gang bang.

 Anything you folks want is fine with me. You want to believe  woman are just as rough and tough as any man, any day, any where? Fine, no problem.  It  is just fine when he fights and dies for you but God forbid if he seeks any sort of parody. Divorce him, take his kids away, take his house and 1/2 of everything he owns, take all the alimony you can squeeze from him, take all the child support and leave him in poverty. He is your slave. But you knew that as soon as you married him. 

The next time you are in serious trouble and need help, call a woman. Wind blew a big tree down into your living-room ? Call a woman. Car stuck in the snow? Call a woman . Transmission on your car needs replacing ? Call a woman. Just don't ask for my help, cause you aren't going to get it.


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## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2018)

Australian SES volunteers - the ones who come to your house when a big tree crashes through the roof.
None of them are conscripts and all of them have other jobs that they drop when called on for help.





You don't call a woman, but you are likely to get a few turn up.
One might even be wearing a hijab.


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## grahamg (Jan 14, 2018)

*You are winning, keep going without varying your manner of posts*



Traveler said:


> If I had won custody of my daughter it sure as hell would have made me happy.
> 
> Men and women have different styles of raising children. There is no two mothers about it. Just two parents. I feel you are confusing child rearing with motherhood and labeling the caregiver as a "mother". At no point when I was caring for my daughter did I identify myself as "mother".
> 
> I am confused about why you would disagree that the welfare of the child should take priority ?  Really confused !




I will try to very briefly then explain my objections to the phrase_ "the welfare of the child should take priority"._

I am sure no one on the planet feels it should not be "one of the priorities" of family law to ensure the welfare of the child, but the moment our family laws are framed to say "the welfare of the child should be THE priority" all kinds of negative consequences become possible. For example no one can adequately define the best interests of the child, so in practise in means some court appointed officials making the judgement, and furthermore its a judgement they can revisit at any time to deem you as a parent no longer in your child's best interests, and believe me it is very hard to challenge or question. 

A professor called Akira Morita has objected to the best interests of the child principle on the grounds it ignores the fact that what the child needs is the relationship with the parent, not some notion of children's rights, i.e. the children's right to contact with the parent, as opposed to the parent's right. I know that sentence is confusing, and I will struggle to explain it more simply or thoroughly I'm afraid. If you can accept my assurance our family law in Western countries are bedevilled by arguments surrounding a child's best interests, and all kinds of travesty's based upon it then I'll have achieved something. A former UK top politician, who held most of the high offices of state did attempt to challenge the best interests of the child principle back in 2001, and in his view "the system was not working", and I believe it will never work until the wisdom of his words are properly understood, and reflected in our family laws.

 Other than that I would urge you not to change your style of posting, as the attacks you are under are not unique and should oddly be considered compliments in my view.


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## Traveler (Jan 14, 2018)

Grahamg, a very well thought out post. I'll have to muse on that for a while.  Interesting concept though.


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## Pam (Jan 15, 2018)

In Norway and Sweden conscription is compulsory for men and women.

From March 2017...... "_With its reintroduction of the draft, Sweden will for the first time  join Norway to become only the second country in Europe where military  service is compulsory for women and as well as men_."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...duce-conscription-amid-rising-baltic-tensions

Then there's the 'Jegertroppen', Norway's all female miliary special forces unit. Unit member Tonje, 22, said: “_We’re carrying the same weight in backpack as the boys. We do the same tasks. I’m the smallest, so I carry as much weight as I myself weigh.”

_https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...first-all-female-special-forces-unit-military 

Switzerland are also considering military conscription for women.  

https://www.thelocal.ch/20170523/switzerland-takes-step-closer-to-military-conscription-for-women


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## Camper6 (Jan 2, 2021)

Women will never have the physical strength men are born with.

High riggers and such demands strength. Men are more daring.  Any job no matter how dangerous if it pays well is fair game.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jan 2, 2021)

I think if women want to be "equal" to men, then we should share the equality. #1 is to be given an equal footing in family courts, as Traveler noted. Men are obliged to "pay" for their kids, while not being  allowed to be with them. Too many of divorced men have the visitation of their kids used as a weapon against them. I also see no reason why women cannot be conscripted into the service.  The concept that all males are  big, muscular towers of strength just isn't true. If wimps can make it in the army, so can women. I just don't believe women are these flitty, weak, needy, overly emotional waifs.  I believe the idea that women are those things has made for the inequality between men and women.


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## Pepper (Jan 2, 2021)

@fuzzybuddy 
BLAH!  Ok, now that that's over with:
I worked in Family Court.  Women legally pay equal to men in NYS.  Period.  That's the law.
Conscription.  You're not saying bring back the draft, because I'll be yelling about that.  However, if there were to be a circumstance where Congress declares war and our nation is at stake OF COURSE women will be drafted!  They already volunteer in record numbers.


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## Rosemarie (Jan 2, 2021)

Traveler said:


> I give up. I can't handle the tag-team. I have been out-numbered and worn down. One giant gang bang.
> 
> Anything you folks want is fine with me. You want to believe  woman are just as rough and tough as any man, any day, any where? Fine, no problem.  It  is just fine when he fights and dies for you but God forbid if he seeks any sort of parody. Divorce him, take his kids away, take his house and 1/2 of everything he owns, take all the alimony you can squeeze from him, take all the child support and leave him in poverty. He is your slave. But you knew that as soon as you married him.
> 
> The next time you are in serious trouble and need help, call a woman. Wind blew a big tree down into your living-room ? Call a woman. Car stuck in the snow? Call a woman . Transmission on your car needs replacing ? Call a woman. Just don't ask for my help, cause you aren't going to get it.


The trouble is, that like so many things, the whole equality thing has been taken to extremes. Yes, both genders are equal but they are not the same. 
Women like shalimar seem to think that being equal to men means being the same as men, behaving like men,etc. It doesn't. All women know we are not inferior but that doesn't mean we can't be soft and feminine. Many of us get fulfilment from being a home-maker and taking care of babies. We don't all want to be mechanics,etc.
Men still think they are superior...wise women will let them keep that illusion!


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## Shalimar (Jan 2, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> The trouble is, that like so many things, the whole equality thing has been taken to extremes. Yes, both genders are equal but they are not the same.
> Women like shalimar seem to think that being equal to men means being the same as men, behaving like men,etc. It doesn't. All women know we are not inferior but that doesn't mean we can't be soft and feminine. Many of us get fulfilment from being a home-maker and taking care of babies. We don't all want to be mechanics,etc.
> Men still think they are superior...wise women will let them keep that illusion!


“Women  like Shalimar”   My goodness, I think I have just been stereotyped. Lol. I am a mother, a fine cook, and a superb baker. I have green thumbs to my elbows, trees in my living room, and a hanging garden of Babylon type garden on my balcony. I love interior design, my house is full of colour and

beautiful creative things. Macrame hangings created by my own hands and other objects add ambience to the sacred sanctuary that is my home. Act like a man, well no. I am a highly feminine woman, hair past my hips, wearer of bracelets, and soft feminine clothes. Soft? You

bet. I weep with the families of the vets dying of Covid. These same vets I say goodbye to via telephone. It hurts me when women, my sisters, deny my femininity simply because my choices are different than theirs. I fully support stay at home moms. The service they do is invaluable. It is about choice.


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## Shalimar (Jan 2, 2021)

In the interest of clarity. Previously, I have shared the story of the hell that was my childhood, how I ended up on the streets of Vancouver at seventeen. A vet found me in an alley, bloody and broken, 

after being raped by multiple men. I had fought hard, but there were too many of them. He had PTSD, lost his only daughter to drugs and the streets. We were each other’s redemption. I 

became a psychologist because of him, and I have been paying it forward ever since. I believe that, as a woman, I offer a healing feminine softness and warmth to my vets. How can I expect them to risk everything if I refuse to risk anything at all?


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## Shalimar (Jan 2, 2021)

On a humorous note, as a practicing belly dancer since the age of fifteen, hmmm, certainly a delightful way to celebrate one’s femininity. Gives one a very toned tummy also!


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

All of the issues being discussed in this thread could have so easily been avoided throughout history if people would simply see each other as people rather than dividing as we seem to need to do.  We have dividing by skin color, gender, beliefs, political leanings, and whatever else can set "dese guys" against "dose guys".  We come up with various labels to hang o people so we can make them into better defined targets.  I see terms such as "snowflake", "woken", "far left", "far right", and on and on.  In short, we are the problem and we all need to just...stop.

Tony


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## Gaer (Jan 2, 2021)

So, Now the men are going to ask for reparation? hahaha!

Just kidding! Actually, women have become more masculine , and men have become more emasculated; effiminate. 

Ishould add, IMO


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## Rosemarie (Jan 2, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> “Women  like Shalimar”   My goodness, I think I have just been stereotyped. Lol. I am a mother, a fine cook, and a superb baker. I have green thumbs to my elbows, trees in my living room, and a hanging garden of Babylon type garden on my balcony. I love interior design, my house is full of colour and
> 
> beautiful creative things. Macrame hangings created by my own hands and other objects add ambience to the sacred sanctuary that is my home. Act like a man, well no. I am a highly feminine woman, hair past my hips, wearer of bracelets, and soft feminine clothes. Soft? You
> 
> bet. I weep with the families of the vets dying of Covid. These same vets I say goodbye to via telephone. It hurts me when women, my sisters, deny my femininity simply because my choices are different than theirs. I fully support stay at home moms. The service they do is invaluable. It is about choice.


I apologize. I got completely the wrong impression. I imagined a Grunhilda! You're obviously a well-rounded woman who has nothing to prove.


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## Shalimar (Jan 2, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> I apologize. I got completely the wrong impression. I imagined a Grunhilda! You're obviously a well-rounded woman who has nothing to prove.


   Wow. Thank you so much, Rosemarie. Your apology is gratefully accepted. Respect you for doing this, many would not.


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Gaer said:


> So, Now the men are going to ask for reparation? hahaha!
> 
> Just kidding! Actually, women have become more masculine , and men have become more emasculated; effiminate.
> 
> Ishould add, IMO


There is a local radio station around here on which the male announcers seem so politically correct and act as if they are trying very hard not to offend anybody, especially women.  I call that the "neutered male syndrome".  I sincerely hope it is a fad that will fade sooner than later.  Men can be masculine without being offensive.

Tony


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## officerripley (Jan 2, 2021)

Gaer said:


> So, Now the men are going to ask for reparation? hahaha!
> 
> Just kidding! Actually, women have become more masculine , and men have become more emasculated; effiminate.
> 
> Ishould add, IMO


"Actually, women have become more masculine , and men have become more emasculated; effiminate." You say that as if it were a bad thing.


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Many of us get fulfilment from being a home-maker and taking care of babies.


That was me. I felt right in my comfort zone.


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## Gaer (Jan 2, 2021)

tbeltrans said:


> There is a local radio station around here on which the male announcers seem so politically correct and act as if they are trying very hard not to offend anybody, especially women.  I call that the "neutered male syndrome".  I sincerely hope it is a fad that will fade sooner than later.  Men can be masculine without being offensive.
> 
> Tony


"neutered male syndrome"?  That's HORRIBLE!
OMG!
it is a TERRIBLE THING!
The FACT that no one can see that; that is a terrible thing!
Where have all the REAL MEN GONE?


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## Gaer (Jan 2, 2021)

Here's a poem I wrote about this:

Do men still breathe the wild air?

Domenexist not bridle bound?
Whostand lone in morn's rise?
Men not bent to soft dispose.
by yarded fence or women's cries?

What men assert thisrebel stance,
who fiery fights mundane,
revels boldly with abash
and strides in worldly reign?

who's hearty laugh, unbridled taugnt
who's bond of word stands just?
Whe can't be shackled inrestraint,
for freedomis his lust?

Men who gouge the paths they walk
who'd bearing merges large,
 He bends to no one, can't be girthed
who greets his fate with charge?

Do men still breathe the wild air?


Oh,, PLEASE let us keep men as MEN and women as women!


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## tbeltrans (Jan 2, 2021)

Gaer said:


> "neutered male syndrome"?  That's HORRIBLE!
> OMG!
> it is a TERRIBLE THING!
> The FACT that no one can see that; that is a terrible thing!
> Where have all the REAL MEN GONE?


I suppose you would have to define what you mean by "real men" before any of us could answer that.

What I was referring to by "neutered male syndrome" was the typical DJ on a particular radio station that caters to the young professional crowd.  These particular DJ guys seem really wimpy and speak as if they are terribly afraid of offending anybody, especially women, to the point that they sound quite effeminate to me.

To me, a "real man" is a guy who steps to his responsibilities, rather than foisting them on society or the government and blaming everybody else for his troubles (i.e. accepting responsibility for his actions and decisions).  This isn't to say that women don't step up to their responsibilities, but we are talking about men here.  I don't see a "real man" as somebody who can beat somebody up or can drag a woman into his cave.  To me, it is a matter of maturity and responsibility without having to give up his identity as a man as the DJs I mentioned seem to do.

Tony


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## Aunt Marg (Jan 2, 2021)




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## grahamg (Jan 2, 2021)

This thread still going, (or should I say going nowhere?)?

One thing we can all surely agree upon, is that women were for whatever reason generally made to be slightly smaller, generally slightly less strong physically, (far superior mentally, let's quickly throw that in!  ), and the female form has let's say "some assets" the men lack!

We'd all agree on all of those things,.........(?),........
right,  my works here is done!


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## win231 (Jan 2, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> “Women  like Shalimar”   My goodness, I think I have just been stereotyped. Lol. I am a mother, a fine cook, and a superb baker. I have green thumbs to my elbows, trees in my living room, and a hanging garden of Babylon type garden on my balcony. I love interior design, my house is full of colour and
> 
> beautiful creative things. Macrame hangings created by my own hands and other objects add ambience to the sacred sanctuary that is my home. Act like a man, well no. I am a highly feminine woman, hair past my hips, wearer of bracelets, and soft feminine clothes. Soft? You
> 
> bet. I weep with the families of the vets dying of Covid. These same vets I say goodbye to via telephone. It hurts me when women, my sisters, deny my femininity simply because my choices are different than theirs. I fully support stay at home moms. The service they do is invaluable. It is about choice.



Of course you're being stereotyped.  What do you expect when you drive around in this?


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