# Learning About Transgender People



## Ruthanne (Mar 31, 2017)

Recently I have made friends on Facebook with some transgender people.  I am rather naive about them.  So, I thought I'd look up some information on transgendered folks and share it with you.  I hope no one pulls out the bible about this and if so I will not respond to it.  I think we all can learn about transgendered people and they have been around a long, long time.  Here is a really good article with a questions and answer section, too, that is very informative.

http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


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## Aunt Bea (Mar 31, 2017)

I'm not sure I understand, it sounds kind of creepy to me that you feel the need to learn about transgender people.

To me people are people and friends are friends, you accept them the way you find them.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 31, 2017)

Aunt Bea said:


> I'm not sure I understand, it sounds kind of creepy to me that you feel the need to learn about transgender people.
> 
> To me people are people and friends are friends, you accept them the way you find them.


I'm sorry you feel that way but I am trying to understand them because I didn't before I read this article.


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## Lethe200 (Mar 31, 2017)

Good for you for wanting to learn more about transgender history and issues. There was a story today in the NY Times that in a recent poll almost 20% of high school students identified as transgender. That surprised even me!


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## Ruthanne (Mar 31, 2017)

Lethe200 said:


> Good for you for wanting to learn more about transgender history and issues. There was a story today in the NY Times that in a recent poll almost 20% of high school students identified as transgender. That surprised even me!


I appreciate your post Lethe200.  That's a pretty high number and it surprises me, too.


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## Falcon (Mar 31, 2017)

I read the whole thing.  Much I already knew but appreciate some of the details of which I wasn't aware.

Thanks for the enlightening post.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 31, 2017)

Falcon said:


> I read the whole thing.  Much I already knew but appreciate some of the details of which I wasn't aware.
> 
> Thanks for the enlightening post.


I wasn't aware of the genetics part of it and the hormonal part, too.  I like to try to understand more about people I know.  When my mom had breast cancer I researched that, my brother has MS and I researched that and I have researched about the things about  myself, and about my other brother and many others who I just want to know more about; I have an interest in them because I care.


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## NancyNGA (Mar 31, 2017)

You are a good-hearted person, Ruthanne.   :rose:


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## Ruth n Jersey (Mar 31, 2017)

Very interesting Ruthanne. I never really gave it much thought.


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## Sassycakes (Mar 31, 2017)

Thank you for posting that Ruthanne, I learned some things that I didn't know about someone being Transgendered. I found it very interesting.


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## Debby (Mar 31, 2017)

I think that's a good thing for you to do Ruthanne, and especially if you are getting to know someone who is like this.  It's certainly a changing world that we live in isn't it?  We keep learning and understanding things continually and we become more accepting of differences through that.

I once watched a short documentary about a doctor in Europe who was researching about transgender people and he came to the conclusion that transgendered brains are actually different then the brains of the rest of us.  Through examining the brain tissue, he could see that the part that controls sexuality is actually different in them.  I can't remember whether it was bigger, different shaped or structured or what (it was a number of years ago that I saw it), but yes, not a choice, not mental illness, but actual physical differences in brain structure.  I found that really interesting.


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## Ruthanne (Mar 31, 2017)

NancyNGA said:


> You are a good-hearted person, Ruthanne.   :rose:


Why thanks Nancy!  



Ruth n Jersey said:


> Very interesting Ruthanne. I never really gave it much thought.


I didn't either at other times.



Sassycakes said:


> Thank you for posting that Ruthanne, I learned some things that I didn't know about someone being Transgendered. I found it very interesting.


I found it very interesting too.  There are a lot of things to learn about transgendered people that can be useful in helping/befriending them.



Debby said:


> I think that's a good thing for you to do Ruthanne, and especially if you are getting to know someone who is like this.  It's certainly a changing world that we live in isn't it?  We keep learning and understanding things continually and we become more accepting of differences through that.
> 
> I once watched a short documentary about a doctor in Europe who was researching about transgender people and he came to the conclusion that transgendered brains are actually different then the brains of the rest of us.  Through examining the brain tissue, he could see that the part that controls sexuality is actually different in them.  I can't remember whether it was bigger, different shaped or structured or what (it was a number of years ago that I saw it), but yes, not a choice, not mental illness, but actual physical differences in brain structure.  I found that really interesting.


I believe that!  Physiological differences are significant in many people who are different in different ways.


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## aeron (Apr 1, 2017)

What happened to the alleged percentage of people who are now claiming to be "born in the wrong body" before it became fashionable to "come out". How many spent lives of abject misery by having been institutionalised.

Homosexuality is normal in nature and there are many examples of same sex intimate relationships amongst humans,  one of the most blatant and furiously denied by TGS being David and Johnathan, not to mention Alexander the Great and of course Alan Turing of codebreaking fame.

I often wonder how many of the most rabid of the people who howl about the "sin" and "immorality" not to mention "perversion" of homosexuality or people genuinely are mentally mismatched with their physical gender are in reality terrified because of their own sexuality.

Fred Phelps, the originator of the (in)famous Westboro bunch of loonies certainly struck me as being a prime candidate in this respect.


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## rt3 (Apr 1, 2017)

Debby said:


> I think that's a good thing for you to do Ruthanne, and especially if you are getting to know someone who is like this.  It's certainly a changing world that we live in isn't it?  We keep learning and understanding things continually and we become more accepting of differences through that.
> 
> I once watched a short documentary about a doctor in Europe who was researching about transgender people and he came to the conclusion that transgendered brains are actually different then the brains of the rest of us.  Through examining the brain tissue, he could see that the part that controls sexuality is actually different in them.  I can't remember whether it was bigger, different shaped or structured or what (it was a number of years ago that I saw it), but yes, not a choice, not mental illness, but actual physical differences in brain structure.  I found that really interesting.



Yes they are different "physiologically"

Up until a few years ago, males who "wanted to wear dresses" or at least if it got to the medical side were treated with chorionic gonadatropin to make their testes come down. 

but some background, for the curious. Most of the males have normal or even high testosterone levels, but even higher conversion to estradiol, which in males is high in late age and protects against cardiovascular events. The gonatropin was stimulating more test. and converted to even higher estradiol. a vicious circle duplicating the menses, cramps, as estradiol is a strong stimulant. females who "wanted to wear comfortable shoes" were ignored. females have higher levels of testosterone but its protein bound typically, in the comfortable shoe category, free testosterone is higher. causing the hair on upper lip, and premature alopecia. 

hormones can change genes and "reprogram" the proteins and other stuff in the body, thus the differences in brain structure, body etc. 

the main reason for this becoming a major issue in this day and age is because the world is "estrogen toxic"

Many chemicals released in the environment have SARs (structural activity relationships) similar to estrogen and mimic their biophysiological chemistry. 
releasing agents in plastics, pvc, etc.

aromatase inhibitors can be used today to block the estrogen in males, but it is usually to late, as the socialoloical behavioral patterns have been ingrained for several years and besides its acceptable. 

from the eugenics point of view its a really good solution to over population


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## Ray (Apr 1, 2017)

The woman in question is an activist on the issue so I guess her hyperbole is understandable. But, honestly, how much can it hurt to use a different toilet than your girlfriends as a child. He had the necessary medical procedures and now used the ladies room. Situation resolved.

Granted, not being in that position I cannot understand the emotions - nor can anyone else not a transvestite. So, I think we just have to take the words of an activist for a cause with a grain of salt and continue the practice of keeping randy 16 year old boys out of the girls shower rooms.


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## aeron (Apr 1, 2017)

Ray said:


> The woman in question is an activist on the issue so I guess her hyperbole is understandable. But, honestly, how much can it hurt to use a different toilet than your girlfriends as a child. He had the necessary medical procedures and now used the ladies room. Situation resolved.
> 
> Granted, not being in that position I cannot understand the emotions - nor can anyone else not a transvestite. So, I think we just have to take the words of an activist for a cause with a grain of salt and continue the practice of keeping randy 16 year old boys out of the girls shower rooms.


Activist? 

 I see her not as an activist but as an educator. 

As for the toilet issue how would one feel if as a girl one was being compelled to use the boys lavatory? And what about the pain of the years of having to live being compelled to put up with a literally unnatural life?  

That sort of thing leaves serious damage to a person.

I know this.  If I had been forced to live as a girl during my formative years I'm far from confident that I could have survived.  So for a transgender person to be forced to live the "wrong" life just to satisfy the expectations of "normal" people is incredibly cruel especially when the "normal" people are too bigoted to even try to empathise with them. Just to not understand a thing does not make it nonexistent.


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## Ray (Apr 1, 2017)

Yes, I should have mentioned that I was referring to Janet Mock although the line between "educator" and "activist" is often blurred. As to bathrooms, they are built "plumbing specific" so I really can't see the problem - it is a body function, not a social statement.

And "forced to live a life" goes far beyond the "which toilet" to issue. Now, it may be a sacrifice (I have no way of knowing) but compared to turning those randy 16 year old boys loose in the girls showers, it is a small sacrifice to ask.


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## rt3 (Apr 1, 2017)

its not just humans.

JOINT BASE LEWIS-McCHORD, Wash. — Meet Tracker, a five-year-old, sixty-pound Belgian Malinois and a graduate of the Military Working Dog School at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas. He’s also one of the Army’s first five openly transgender military police dogs, assigned to the 42nd Military Police Brigade at Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

“We took to each other pretty quickly,” said Spc. Jeffrey Grassley, a military policeman and dog handler partnered with Tracker. “I mean, it’s a little weird that they tell me to call him a ‘him,’ since he’s obviously a female dog, and there was that time last month when he was laid up for a few days after he gave birth to a litter of puppies, but we’ve really forged a close working friendship.”

Tracker, who was raised as a female dog under the name Regina, first identified as a male during the initial breeding and selection process the military uses to screen potential military working dogs.

During play time, Flaherty said, Tracker would consistently engage in behavior normally associated with male dogs, and whenever he would go into heat, would go after the females pretty aggressively, almost totally ignoring the male dogs.

Paws Across The Rainbow, the nation's leading advocacy group for LGBT animals, hailed the move, calling it a "landmark achievement for all military working animals, no matter what their sexuality."

"We hope that this will serve as an example throughout the military that being transgendered is simply not a reason to discriminate against competent and talented military working animals of all species, said spokesman Pat Riley, while also calling on the Army to provide no-cost gender-reassignment surgery for the dogs "as a gesture of tolerance and recognition of the diverse nature of today's military working animals."

Some of the more traditional, conservative elements within the Army might not be so ready to embrace such a radical change, however.

The all-male caisson horses of the 3rd Infantry Regiment, or "The Old Guard," long entrusted with the solemn honor of bearing the caskets of fallen warriors and deceased U.S. presidents, have drawn fire for refusing to allow female or openly LGBT horses within its ranks, and the regiment's command team is unapologetic about that fact.


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## aeron (Apr 1, 2017)

Ray said:


> Yes, I should have mentioned that I was referring to Janet Mock although the line between "educator" and "activist" is often blurred. As to bathrooms, they are built "plumbing specific" so I really can't see the problem - it is a body function, not a social statement.
> 
> And "forced to live a life" goes far beyond the "which toilet" to issue. Now, it may be a sacrifice (I have no way of knowing) but compared to turning those randy 16 year old boys loose in the girls showers, it is a small sacrifice to ask.


If the physical "boys" are prospective transgender young people or are homosexual being "let loose" as you so quaintly put it in the female showers would be as significant as letting boys "loose" in boys showers or girls "loose" in girls showers.


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## tnthomas (Apr 1, 2017)

How did "Learning About Transgender People" degenerate into the thoroughly farcical debate over public restroom usage???


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## aeron (Apr 2, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> How did "Learning About Transgender People" degenerate into the thoroughly farcical debate over public restroom usage???


Because it's where the issue rises above the surface for people who are transgender having to deal with public perception and strictly defined gender facilities.  Best would be to adopt the growing trend over here and have unisex facilities.  Issue solved.


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## Debby (Apr 2, 2017)

rt3 said:


> Yes they are different "physiologically"
> 
> Up until a few years ago, males who "wanted to wear dresses" or at least if it got to the medical side were treated with chorionic gonadatropin to make their testes come down.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, not sure what you are trying to say?


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## Debby (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> Yes, I should have mentioned that I was referring to Janet Mock although the line between "educator" and "activist" is often blurred. As to bathrooms, they are built "plumbing specific" so I really can't see the problem - it is a body function, not a social statement.
> 
> And "forced to live a life" goes far beyond the "which toilet" to issue. Now, it may be a sacrifice (I have no way of knowing) but compared to turning those randy 16 year old boys loose in the girls showers, it is a small sacrifice to ask.



But what if they are 'not randy boys' but are actually 'randy girls stuck in the wrong body'?

I just had a thought that human sexuality and identity are maybe more a matter of 'degrees'.  Like what do you do then with children who are born with parts of both reproductive organs.  It's called ambiguous genitalia.  If the physical organs can be 'confused', why not the mental identity that the children grow up with, i.e. being inappropriate to the physical exterior?

So yeah, I think learning to understand transgender people does require a little bit more than simply going for coffee and asking 'what are your hobbies'.  Not obviously that you're going to sit there and opine on all of this with them, but to simply make you aware of the possibility that their perspective on issues might be coming from a different place than mine or yours Ruthanne or yours Ray.


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## Moofies (Apr 2, 2017)

I am a mother of a transgender son whom I adore for his courage and strength.  He is not a transvestite. Transvestites simply dress in the opposite gender's clothing. Someone transgender needs to have a physical body change to feel comfortable with life. My son genuinely wants a normal life such as you and I in a body that he can relate to.  He has gone through surgery to become a man.  He has changed his gender marker on his birth certificate. He is a man now...my son.  He does not live a flamboyant life. He is not looking for attention. He is a normal male in every sense and a thousand times happier living comfortably as a man because emotionally and mentally he has always been male inside.  I saw my 'daughter' grow up very shy, withdrawn and downhearted. Now 'she' is a man and living very happily about to be married.  Finally found his comfort zone to live normally.  If I had not mentioned he was transgender you would have no idea.  What he went through to become a man took amazing strength and courage...hormones, surgery, facing family (the whole family loves him unconditionally), friends, legally with all the paperwork and proof to be a man now.  This is not something done on a whim.  He is a man inside and out now.  The packaging changed to make him whole.  All the worry I had are now gone that he is now happy..truly happy feeling complete.


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> If the physical "boys" are prospective transgender young people or are homosexual being "let loose" as you so quaintly put it in the female showers would be as significant as letting boys "loose" in boys showers or girls "loose" in girls showers.



That is a good point. I've always wondered why, for example, the military assigns barracks by gender but mixes homosexual with straight. I guess there just isn't an answer to all possible permutations.

Once you open the door to anyone can be anything he/she wants on any particular day you throw out all standards. That is why (particularly with regards to toilets) I prefer to apply the KISS principle - "plumbing appropriate".


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

Debby said:


> But what if they are 'not randy boys' but are actually 'randy girls stuck in the wrong body'?
> 
> I just had a thought that human sexuality and identity are maybe more a matter of 'degrees'.  Like what do you do then with children who are born with parts of both reproductive organs.  It's called ambiguous genitalia.  If the physical organs can be 'confused', why not the mental identity that the children grow up with, i.e. being inappropriate to the physical exterior?
> 
> So yeah, I think learning to understand transgender people does require a little bit more than simply going for coffee and asking 'what are your hobbies'.  Not obviously that you're going to sit there and opine on all of this with them, but to simply make you aware of the possibility that their perspective on issues might be coming from a different place than mine or yours Ruthanne or yours Ray.



All true, Debby. See my response to Aeron.


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## aeron (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> That is a good point. I've always wondered why, for example, the military assigns barracks by gender but mixes homosexual with straight. I guess there just isn't an answer to all possible permutations.
> 
> Once you open the door to anyone can be anything he/she wants on any particular day you throw out all standards. That is why (particularly with regards to toilets) I prefer to apply the KISS principle - "plumbing appropriate".


Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?

For that matter what ARE these "standards"?

As for being plumbing appropriate unisex urinals are not in the least bit uncommon but increasingly in Europe it is becoming increasingly unacceptable for men when in public lavatories to urinate standing up.

In Belgium, Holland, and Germany unisex lavatories are almost de rigeur along with usually female attendants and other than visiting Americans or to a lesser extent Canadians no one gives it a second thought.


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?
> 
> For that matter what ARE these "standards"?
> 
> ...



Certainly would be cheaper besides, one size fits all, bigger fans


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

Debbie reread Moofies post stop at her word hormones reread mine stop reread hers about drag queens and transgender.

transgender hormone therapy includes changing the various ratios to achieve another goal by injection

its all chemical before and after


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> Why should anyone NOT be what they want to be and why SHOULD that mean that "standards" be "thrown out" if they do?
> 
> For that matter what ARE these "standards"?
> 
> ...



"Standards" such as the definition of male and female. A good example of the absurdity of such things is that woman who, although caucasian,  decided she "felt" black and passed for black actually getting a job with the NAACP. Not that there is anything wrong with a white person working for the NAACP but she "passed for black". Suppose I am working and "decide" I am a woman, do I get into "upward mobility" programs? If I "decide" I am black, do I get special consideration when applying for a government contract?

That is what I mean by "standards".


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 2, 2017)

Moofies said:


> I am a mother of a transgender son whom I adore for his courage and strength.  He is not a transvestite. Transvestites simply dress in the opposite gender's clothing. Someone transgender needs to have a physical body change to feel comfortable with life. My son genuinely wants a normal life such as you and I in a body that he can relate to.  He has gone through surgery to become a man.  He has changed his gender marker on his birth certificate. He is a man now...my son.  He does not live a flamboyant life. He is not looking for attention. He is a normal male in every sense and a thousand times happier living comfortably as a man because emotionally and mentally he has always been male inside.  I saw my 'daughter' grow up very shy, withdrawn and downhearted. Now 'she' is a man and living very happily about to be married.  Finally found his comfort zone to live normally.  If I had not mentioned he was transgender you would have no idea.  What he went through to become a man took amazing strength and courage...hormones, surgery, facing family (the whole family loves him unconditionally), friends, legally with all the paperwork and proof to be a man now.  This is not something done on a whim.  He is a man inside and out now.  The packaging changed to make him whole.  All the worry I had are now gone that he is now happy..truly happy feeling complete.



Moofies, I'm so glad to hear that your son is finally happy and content with his life.  I wish him a positive and successful future, you're a good Mom for supporting him through all of this. :love_heart:


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## aeron (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> "Standards" such as the definition of male and female. A good example of the absurdity of such things is that woman who, although caucasian,  decided she "felt" black and passed for black actually getting a job with the NAACP. Not that there is anything wrong with a white person working for the NAACP but she "passed for black". Suppose I am working and "decide" I am a woman, do I get into "upward mobility" programs? If I "decide" I am black, do I get special consideration when applying for a government contract?
> 
> That is what I mean by "standards".


Standards are set references that are used as datum points against which things can be measured or more loosely descriptions and functionality that must be complied with. Reading your definitions​ what you describe is subjective and based on datums that you have set.  

If a Caucasian woman decides to emulate what she believes are the factors that affect non-Caucasian people maybe using her experience as a Caucasian then why not? It is more than possible she can bring things to the party that are not obvious to the people that she decides to associate herself with. 

Similarly if a person realises that they are in fact transgender and decides to live accordingly then why should they not be entitled to take advantage of programme to assist in upward mobility?

And a person decides to genuinely  take on a particular persona with all that with it goes why should they not be entitled to any advantages that a person is entitled to?

This has descended into attempting to employ the logic of reductio ad absurdum but is bound to fail because there is absolutely nothing wrong or unnatural about different sexuality of people nor is a difference between physical and emotional other than just part of the natural variation of animals and at the end of the day people are just animals.


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> Standards are set references that are used as datum points against which things can be measured or more loosely descriptions and functionality that must be complied with. Reading your definitions​ what you describe is subjective and based on datums that you have set.
> 
> If a Caucasian woman decides to emulate what she believes are the factors that affect non-Caucasian people maybe using her experience as a Caucasian then why not? It is more than possible she can bring things to the party that are not obvious to the people that she decides to associate herself with.
> 
> ...



Agreed - there is nothing wrong with the difference between the physical and emotional within a person. However, society cannot organize itself without some standards. In this case (as in the case of the girls shower room) "plumbing" seems to be a rational standard. 

BTW, I guess I haven't gotten to "the end of the day" as yet since I see humans on a higher plane with higher capabilities demanding higher standards than animals.


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## Debby (Apr 2, 2017)

rt3 said:


> Debbie reread Moofies post stop at her word hormones reread mine stop reread hers about drag queens and transgender.
> 
> transgender hormone therapy includes changing the various ratios to achieve another goal by injection
> 
> its all chemical before and after


'You' are all about chemicals, 'I' am all about chemicals, it's just that ours match the outside.


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## aeron (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> Agreed - there is nothing wrong with the difference between the physical and emotional within a person. However, society cannot organize itself without some standards. In this case (as in the case of the girls shower room) "plumbing" seems to be a rational standard.
> 
> BTW, I guess I haven't gotten to "the end of the day" as yet since I see humans on a higher plane with higher capabilities demanding higher standards than animals.


Society does have standards, or more correctly acceptable norms but these constantly change as society changes and evolved.  

Today transgender people are just people and homosexual people are just people and transvestite people are just people and society is all the better for it.  Why should physical differences between genders be a reason to discriminate?  

At Cite Europe, the huge shopping mall at Coquelles (french end of the Tunnel Sous la Manche) there's virtually no discrimination between lavatories and people often use either at busy times and no one bats an eyelid.  In smaller towns there are only unisex lavatories and on camp site unisex showers and again no one bothers about it.

I believe that some people are just too uptight about a thing that people just don't bother about, a bit like going topless or even stark naked on some Med beaches and camp sites.


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

Debby said:


> 'You' are all about chemicals, 'I' am all about chemicals, it's just that ours match the outside.



Not shure what outside means

what I'm saying is that transgender do have have genetic changes from higher levels of certain drugs from early childhood

what I am saying is that transgender can be changed back with the knowledge that has evolved in the last 20 years about hormone therapy 

what at I am saying is it may be to cruel to do that


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## tnthomas (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> Because it's where the issue rises above the surface for people who are transgender having to deal with public perception and strictly defined gender facilities.  Best would be to adopt the growing trend over here and have unisex facilities.  Issue solved.



For many years a lot of public restrooms have been "unisex", basically a one person restroom that is gender neutral.


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> A lot of public restrooms are "unisex", basically a one person restroom that is gender neutral.



Yes and good thing -- the last remaining bastion of solitude in an overly crowded environment to take a big one, er I mean one could they do?


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

And a person decides to genuinely take on a particular persona with all that with it goes why should they not be entitled to any advantages that a person is entitled to?

while the discussion to this point has involved people who have been exposed to a series of chemical events that are considered by some groups as abnormal, the above statement needs closer examination in light of its potential implications. 

Specifically the use of genetic and performance enhancement using hormones and adjuncts such as blood packing.  Women will no longer be competitive in womens sports. In fact it could become a transgender sport. How can a sports organization outlaw discrimination in an activity when its oked by the law of land. 

and extending this to entitlement of specific legal rights afforded to the category previously known as women under the law? also vise vera for those converting to the other way gaining those advantages due to the catoragory previously known as men.

But the real question here is more serious and could be devastating. What will happen to the Dallas Cheerleaders? Will they be replaced by a bunch of Bruce Jenner symbiots?

And womens beach volley ball. I...I can't go on.


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## Butterfly (Apr 2, 2017)

I never understood (and still don't) why everybody all of a sudden got so wrapped around the axle about transgender people using the "wrong" bathroom.  Presumably this has been going on forever and nobody knew or cared or got all weird about it until the last couple of years.  In most women's bathrooms in the US, anyway, there are separate stalls, so what difference does all this really make???  I've never in my life worried or wondered if the person in the next stall was female or not.


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

aeron said:


> Society does have standards, or more correctly acceptable norms but these constantly change as society changes and evolved.
> 
> Today transgender people are just people and homosexual people are just people and transvestite people are just people and society is all the better for it.  Why should physical differences between genders be a reason to discriminate?
> 
> ...


I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2017)

"What will happen to the Dallas Cheerleaders? Will they be replaced by a bunch of Bruce Jenner symbiots?"

Bite your tongue!!!!


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## rt3 (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.



no way man some people are just too ugly. Hmmm is that a protected category.?

Is this a why do English tourist boats have glass bottoms joke?                 (to see the french navy)


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## Ruthanne (Apr 2, 2017)

Ray said:


> I'm with you. People are people and have a right to their individuality. But then we arrive at points of commonality such as toilets and plumbing. If the French want to share toilets, take down the dividing walls, shower together, that is their decision. Topless, naked, cool - there are places for such here too - but not in the high school.


Well, I am referring to much older transgender people that I know.


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## Debby (Apr 3, 2017)

rt3 said:


> Not shure what outside means
> 
> what I'm saying is that transgender do have have genetic changes from higher levels of certain drugs from early childhood
> 
> ...


According to the documentary I watched a few years back, transgender people's brains are actually different in structure in the region that affects sexuality.  So blaming drugs....no.  

And what I meant is that we all are influenced by the chemicals (hormones) to be and do the things we do, and in the case of transgender people, the hormones that their bodies produce apparently don't match the exterior shell.


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## rt3 (Apr 3, 2017)

you assume that testosterone produces male characterizations and estradiol female. This is 30 year old medicine or more. 
men have more progesterone in them than women during menses, and likewise females have more bound test. than men. conversion of test in men to estradiol gives them the female attributes you are describing to the exterior shell.  in females, the bound test. is converted to free test. which gives the secondary sex characteristics of males you call the outer shell

The set beliefs that the outer shell is male, test and female estradiol is really illustrated by the example of roid rage, or an extreme rage caused by to high levels of test. when in fact it is the female hormone that causes the rage, estradiol is a stimulant. The testosterone is converted to estradiol and causes the rage. Thats why body builders take aromatase inhibitors, and why older men if their balances are correct have smoother skin than normal middle age men. Also estradiol is cardio protective. It is also why progesterone is given as a tranquilizer. It has over 100 metabolic by products which are pharmacologically active. 2 of the pregnenolone category have the same calming effect as benzodiazepines. 

What you are saying goes against the HRT doctors and clinics in the USA such as Physioage, Cenergenics etc. who see thousands of patients every day. Your saying that drugs are not to blame is ignorance. 

there is no brain area that affects sexuality, sexuality is affected by chemicals that are capable of changing every cell in the body. The cells every where in the brain are affected by hormones not centers. The only structures changed are at the DNA level which starts recoding for more of either hormones output.


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## Ray (Apr 3, 2017)

Ruthanne said:


> Well, I am referring to much older transgender people that I know.



Fine - would it really cause them great trauma to use a plumbing appropriate restroom?? I can only speak from my own perspective but when I gotta go, I gotta go and "going" is the point not making a social or political statement.


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## tnthomas (Apr 3, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I never understood (and still don't) why everybody all of a sudden got so wrapped around the axle about transgender people using the "wrong" bathroom.  Presumably this has been going on forever and nobody knew or cared or got all weird about it until the last couple of years.  In most women's bathrooms in the US, anyway, there are separate stalls, so what difference does all this really make???  I've never in my life worried or wondered if the person in the next stall was female or not.



I'm guessing so that the haters can have another issue to rail against, and to rally the uh, "faithful" to turn out for the presidential vote.   Looks like that effort was successful.


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## rt3 (Apr 3, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> I'm guessing so that the haters can have another issue to rail against, and to rally the uh, "faithful" to turn out for the presidential vote.   Looks like that effort was successful.



To answer your question.   Yes you would be guessing


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## Debby (Apr 3, 2017)

rt3 said:


> you assume that testosterone produces male characterizations and estradiol female. This is 30 year old medicine or more.
> men have more progesterone in them than women during menses, and likewise females have more bound test. than men. conversion of test in men to estradiol gives them the female attributes you are describing to the exterior shell.  in females, the bound test. is converted to free test. which gives the secondary sex characteristics of males you call the outer shell
> 
> The set beliefs that the outer shell is male, test and female estradiol is really illustrated by the example of roid rage, or an extreme rage caused by to high levels of test. when in fact it is the female hormone that causes the rage, estradiol is a stimulant. The testosterone is converted to estradiol and causes the rage. Thats why body builders take aromatase inhibitors, and why older men if their balances are correct have smoother skin than normal middle age men. Also estradiol is cardio protective. It is also why progesterone is given as a tranquilizer. It has over 100 metabolic by products which are pharmacologically active. 2 of the pregnenolone category have the same calming effect as benzodiazepines.
> ...




Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.  They found *significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter* – and the *female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain* (_Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006__). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says._
_In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females.* Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females* (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.11.007). “*Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,*” says Guillamon

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/



_
If I'm not mistaken, that's about structure, not hormones.


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## rt3 (Apr 3, 2017)

You are mistaken , the hormones , cause the structural change the not the other way around.  Study done in 2010 in spain not even accepted in the usa. In a psychiatric journal no less.  You wouldn't even dare mention this in the MD lunch room.

please google someplace like Seattle to see how many HRT business there are. The entire field has jumped light years.


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## Debby (Apr 4, 2017)

Who cares if it isn't accepted in the USA?  What is the USA?  God?  Good grief.

Besides rt, the point is, transgender people are born different, no matter what the reason.  End of story and they are the only ones to decide what makes them happy.  Not you.  Not some minister, not me or anyone else.  They decide.  So maybe it's time the rest of us get over it and mind our own business.  Our 'opinions' don't matter.

That's the trouble with this whole world, 7 billion people minding everyone elses business.  The only time we should not countenance someone else's behaviour is when they are hurting others.  That's it.  Other than that, if we have nothing nice to say, we should just button it.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2017)

Transgenders are not born different you are having a very difficult time accepting that the chemicals are causing the change. Could be diet or lack of diet miss coded DNA any combination of, over several years of cell turn overs.

What was the statistical group size of their MRIs,  were they tAken over a period of time, to trace growth against hormone lab values was a separate group run that was given hormones given Mri as a control

Voodoo studies are down all around the world like this and not accepted in USA because they are not stringent enough. Get over it.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2017)

you should tend your own chickens


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## Debby (Apr 4, 2017)

rt3 said:


> Transgenders are not born different you are having a very difficult time accepting that the chemicals are causing the change. Could be diet or lack of diet miss coded DNA any combination of, over several years of cell turn overs.
> 
> What was the statistical group size of their MRIs,  were they tAken over a period of time, to trace growth against hormone lab values was a separate group run that was given hormones given Mri as a control
> 
> Voodoo studies are down all around the world like this and not accepted in USA because they are not stringent enough. Get over it.


If those hormones are affecting the unborn fetus and it is 'coming out of the womb' with differences, then that person is born different.  Their brains obviously develop differently and they have different perspectives in life as a result.  You can argue semantics all you want, but they are born different.  

And I'm not the one who is telling them, they are wrong, evil, faking it, screwy in the head or anything.  I'm saying, they feel the way they feel and it's not up to you (and all your chemical issues) or anyone else to say that they can't find their own happiness in whatever form it takes.  I'm saying, that it is only up to them to walk their journey and I will only wish them well on it.

The rest of the world is not as ignorant as you would like to think they are.


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## aeron (Apr 4, 2017)

Surely the bottom line is that for whatever reason when it comes to their gender physical characteristics some people live in different reality than the majority and are entitled to be treated equally in every way as the people of the gender physical characteristics that they identify with. 

 In EVERY way.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2017)

Debby said:


> If those hormones are affecting the unborn fetus and it is 'coming out of the womb' with differences, then that person is born different.  Their brains obviously develop differently and they have different perspectives in life as a result.  You can argue semantics all you want, but they are born different.
> 
> And I'm not the one who is telling them, they are wrong, evil, faking it, screwy in the head or anything.  I'm saying, they feel the way they feel and it's not up to you (and all your chemical issues) or anyone else to say that they can't find their own happiness in whatever form it takes.  I'm saying, that it is only up to them to walk their journey and I will only wish them well on it.
> 
> The rest of the world is not as ignorant as you would like to think they are.



the differences is taxonomic ;not semantics.. Down syndrome as an example, 1 dropped set of chromosomes, some others are diabetes, could go own but the ignorance is overwhelming. these conditions are not reversible with drugs or hormones. symptoms perhaps but not the condition. trans gender yes.


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## rt3 (Apr 4, 2017)

aeron said:


> Surely the bottom line is that for whatever reason when it comes to their gender physical characteristics some people live in different reality than the majority and are entitled to be treated equally in every way as the people of the gender physical characteristics that they identify with.
> 
> In EVERY way.



couldn't agree more, maybe you've worked with the Special Olympics a couple of years, or with kids born without limbs so perhaps you know this more in depth.


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## Debby (Apr 5, 2017)

rt, I think you don't care about other people finding their way through this life and being happy unless it matches your picture of how the world should be. Imagine if the world was filled with people who don't accept anyone who is different?  Sad, frightening, dangerous....reminds me of my mother (I spent an hour on the phone with her yesterday listening to her complain about everything and everybody that came into the discussion.)

And maybe you need to reread what aeron wrote in that post you agreed to.  I don't think he's agreeing with you at all.  You want to change them with hormone therapy, I think aeron is saying accept them as they want to be.


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2017)

In later life when women throw down the apron put the pants on, start thinking about business ventures, face thins, skin thickens, hair thins, alopecia sets in, menopause. Estrogen and progesterone lab levels on or slightly below the level FOR THEIR AGE group aw shucks thats the way its supposed to me, nature intended. 
called this  menopause because the nomenclature was established way back when. Cognitive identity changes depending on hormone levels. dose dependent
late mature gender identity crisis, you can add a trans in there if it makes you feel better

In later life when men say to hell with it,  take up janitorial duties, skin smooths hair gets really long in ears, eyebrows etc. specifically stimulated by estriol a by product of increased estrogen levels. Called andropause. 
Nomenclature somewhat recent around 60s. Lab values on testosterone way below 200 but considered normal FOR THEIR AGE group. no libido wears paisley shirts. Golf buddies kid about about crying over missed putts. 
late mature gender identity crisis'

both cases can be helped with appropriate hormone therapy

or were they just born that way and the changes in physical structure hadn't "matured" enough to exhibit the "outside shell" effects.


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## rt3 (Apr 5, 2017)

Debby said:


> rt, I think you don't care about other people finding their way through this life and being happy unless it matches your picture of how the world should be. Imagine if the world was filled with people who don't accept anyone who is different?  Sad, frightening, dangerous....reminds me of my mother (I spent an hour on the phone with her yesterday listening to her complain about everything and everybody that came into the discussion.)
> 
> And maybe you need to reread what aeron wrote in that post you agreed to.  I don't think he's agreeing with you at all.  You want to change them with hormone therapy, I think aeron is saying accept them as they want to be.



by resorting to a ad hominem argument you have already lost, take a look in the mirror ill bet you see your mother

I am saying that hormone therapy helps all these people accept themselves which is the basis of the cognitive problem, what other people do and think is their choice, I am not trying to tell them as you are doing by inserting some moral framework.


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## Debby (Apr 5, 2017)

rt3 said:


> by resorting to a ad hominem argument you have already lost, take a look in the mirror ill bet you see your mother
> 
> I am saying that hormone therapy helps all these people accept themselves which is the basis of the cognitive problem, what other people do and think is their choice, I am not trying to tell them as you are doing by inserting some moral framework.



Emotions are a gift to us because they are the catalyst that spurs us on to action.  By denying the emotions of any given situation or moment, you've effectively tied one hand behind your own back which makes it possible to not care and not do anything or maybe just not accept them for who they want to be. 

And while I'd only be guessing because I've never had a reason to research this particular thing out, but I'd be guessing that the main reason those transgender folks might be taking any hormones, is not to make their brains match the body they've been born with, but perhaps to suppress some of the 'wrong gender' physical traits that they are trying to overcome.  If that were the case, then I'd fully support them.

On the other hand, if you are suggesting that they take hormones that will make them act or settle to be 'like' the gender they aren't comfortable with,  then I'd say they probably weren't being true to themselves and I hope they find their own path.  And rt, I'm not trying to fit them into any moral framework.  Their life, their gender, their choice.

(and by the way, I disagreed with you, and made some observations based on the things you've said.  If I was mistaken, and you do want them to have their surgeries and change so that they become comfortable in their own skin, then I apologize.  If you don't mind that they are 'different', then I apologize for that....but just going by what you've said....)


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## Butterfly (Apr 5, 2017)

rt, are these hormones safe to take?  When I was first going through menopause, HRT was what docs were prescribing.  Then a few years later, they all started saying "no no no" to HRT.


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2017)

Absolutely, they are bioidentical.

The great confusing part is the hormones offered by big pharm are conjugated and/or synthetic. This allows them to patent control and get the big bucks. These are the ones you hear about in the press with the problems. Premarin, provera.j
How can something your body makes be bad for you if your just low on the amt. that's why they are called hormones and not drugs. Premarin cannot be called that by law it must called conjugated estrogen, a seemingly innocuous difference but considerable to medical community.

when an older person gets there labs they come back testosterone normal as an example for males. This means around 50.

i don't want an old persons shit I want hormones of a 20 year old. Around 200.  And I do have that. 20 year old on all of them.

This is just an example, this includes thyroid, estradiol, pregnenolone etc.
50000 women died last year because they didn't get estradiol

every hormone is converted or can be converted to one of the other hormones by the body. The system is not one little black box with stuff in stuff out. It is a very complex interwoven to which the concentration off each individual is a periodic pendulum.

ill get you some good info from NCBI national center for biological information and NIH , peer reviewed with references.


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## rt3 (Apr 6, 2017)

If you have time with all that's happin

ncbi.nim.nih.gov

prenatal endocrine influences on ****** orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior. Melissa Hines


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## Butterfly (Apr 6, 2017)

rt3, how would one go about getting those bioidentical hormones?


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## rt3 (Apr 7, 2017)

Search for HRT in your area, Google, check around for the best one. Search for compounding pharmacies and not chains etc. that happen to do  compounding also


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