# Will The Taliban Take Kabul on 9-11?



## fmdog44 (Aug 13, 2021)

Twelve cities in one week the Taliban has overrun and would it not be the ultimate insult to wait until 9-11 to take Kabul twenty years later?


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## jerry old (Aug 13, 2021)

PROBABLY,  wait until we clear the embassy with the 2,0000 troops have left.  They don't want to risk the Americans coming back.

Just think of all the weapons and equipment the US will leave behind, which will make the Taliban's neighbors shake.


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## MrPants (Aug 13, 2021)

It's a sad epitaph to that whole Afghanistan mess. The Taliban will be emboldened!
I hope it's not 9/11 when they take Kabul. You're right! It would be the ultimate insult


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## Don M. (Aug 13, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Just think of all the weapons and equipment the US will leave behind, which will make the Taliban's neighbors shake.



For Sure!  The US has given the Afghan military a huge amount of vehicles and arms.  It appears that the Afghan military is just quietly giving up, and the Taliban is taking the weapons and vehicles.


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## jerry old (Aug 14, 2021)

Have watched the Marines trying to control the desperation of the Vietnamese people trying to board the last helicopter from the U S Embassy.  several times.
It was a dark day for American Honor.
Are we going to  see it again in Afgham?


We have used untold thousands of Afgham Nationals, we cannot bring them all to American?


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## fmdog44 (Aug 14, 2021)

I saw yesterday when asking why the Afghan troops cannot fight off the Taliban it was noted very low pay, corrupt military and corrupt government. To me why train such people? Twenty years of training by the best in the world and we don't see that? Stinks of a war we fought sixty years ago.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I saw yesterday when asking why the Afghan troops cannot fight off the Taliban it was noted very low pay, corrupt military and corrupt government. To me why train such people? Twenty years of training by the best in the world and we don't see that? Stinks of a war we fought sixty years ago.


And the Taliban is getting cozy with China. _China_ wants Kabul. It would complete their Belt & Road collection and give the CCP easy access to Afghanistan's coal and other minerals.


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## FastTrax (Aug 14, 2021)

The Afghanistan/Taliban Crises

Part 1:  Afghanistan













www.hrw.org/asia/afghanistan

www.cfr.org/timeline/us-war-afghanistan

www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/07/08/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-drawdown-of-u-s-forces-in-afghanistan

www.state.gov/countries-areas/afghanistan/

www.unodc.org/documents/crop-monitoring/Afghanistan/20210503_Executive_summary_Opium_Survey_2020_SMALL.pdf

www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/un-survey-finds-37-spike-afghan-poppy-cultivation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Nasim_Akhundzada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_National_Security_Forces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Afghanistan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Afghanistan


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## bingo (Aug 14, 2021)

i  can't  imagine  what  our troops who spent  their life  or lost it...over  there  feel


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## Giants fan1954 (Aug 14, 2021)

I said it on 9/12/01 and I'll say it again...carpet bomb the whole country and that's it.
If you're going to start talking about collateral damage, remember the 3k+ that died on 9/11.
These people are savages.


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## Pepper (Aug 14, 2021)

Giants fan1954 said:


> I said it on 9/12/01 and I'll say it again...carpet bomb the whole country and that's it.
> If you're going to start talking about collateral damage, remember the 3k+ that died on 9/11.
> *These people are savages.*


You must be referring to the Saudis.  Afghans were not involved, except to give aid to Osama bin Laden After the Fact.


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## helenbacque (Aug 14, 2021)

Pepper is correct.  Osama bin Laden was *born in Saudi Arabia*. He was the 17th of 52 children of construction magnate Muhammad Awad bin Laden, an immigrant from neighboring Yemen, who runs a construction company, the Saudi bin Laden Group.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 14, 2021)

@FastTrax - I'll bet the CCP wouldn't mind getting in on the opium trade, too....as long as the people of China don't have access to it. They certainly have the clout to offer the Taliban an expansion of sales.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 14, 2021)

The situation reminds me of helicopter parents that are shocked when their children turn 18 and are not self sufficient adults.

We’ve spent an entire generation doing the heavy lifting and now we find out that either the people of Afghanistan are not able to defend themselves or perhaps have no interest in the agenda that we’ve been promoting.

The whole thing has been a tragic waste on so many levels.


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## GAlady (Aug 14, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> @FastTrax - I'll bet the CCP wouldn't mind getting in on the opium trade, too....as long as the people of China don't have access to it. They certainly have the clout to offer the Taliban an expansion of sales.


What is CCP?


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## Pepper (Aug 14, 2021)

GAlady said:


> What is CCP?


Chinese Communist Party


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## Alligatorob (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Stinks of a war we fought sixty years ago


Yep, a lesson we should have learned.

I was happy to see us go after Al-Qaida in Afghanistan, but once they were out I always thought we should have gone.  The Taliban are awful, but they did not attack us and the world is too full of awful folks for us take them all on.  Iraq is a similar thing, Bush 1 got it right, Bush 2 did not.  

Hindsight is always 20/20...


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## Chet (Aug 14, 2021)

It's going to be an unfolding story with more to come. It's reminiscent of Vietnam, which eventually became a trading partner, so the final result ended up being the best it could be. Afghanistan, I'm afraid won't. Vietnam was partially westernized in a way by the French, but Afghanistan is mired in the past as a result of their version of Islam.


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## hawkdon (Aug 14, 2021)

This whole business in that country is astonishing...as others have said the people in there don't care about their own future, who runs things and so on...it is mind blowing...what a useless
war it was.....imho


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## FastTrax (Aug 14, 2021)

The Afghanistan/Taliban Crises

Part 2: The Taliban











www.cfr.org/backgrounder/taliban-afghanistan

www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/afghan_taliban.html

www.un.org/press/en/2021/sc14596.doc.htm

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/afghan-taliban

www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/02/25/good-deals-and-bad-ones-with-the-taliban/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/taliban's_rise_to_power


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## Nathan (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I saw yesterday when asking why the Afghan troops cannot fight off the Taliban it was noted very low pay, corrupt military and corrupt government. To me why train such people? Twenty years of training by the best in the world and we don't see that? Stinks of a war we fought sixty years ago.


As time goes by I'm more and more convinced that lessons of the past get forgotten, and that history inevitably will always repeat itself.


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## J-Kat (Aug 14, 2021)

The Afgani army was more than happy to receive gifts of weapons and other equipment but I expect, if the truth were known, they were selling them to whoever offered the highest price while our guys did all the fighting for them.  I'm sorry that innocent people, primarily women and children, will suffer but it is way past time to leave and let them sink or swim on their own.


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## GAlady (Aug 14, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Chinese Communist Party


Thanks.  China, for sure.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 14, 2021)

Chet said:


> It's going to be an unfolding story with more to come. It's reminiscent of Vietnam, which eventually became a trading partner, so the final result ended up being the best it could be. Afghanistan, I'm afraid won't. Vietnam was partially westernized in a way by the French, but Afghanistan is mired in the past as a result of their version of Islam.


Precisely correct! It's crucial to remember that there are different versions and interpretations of Islam. The Taliban's version is absolutely fundamental while the way most Afghans practice Islam is not.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 14, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> And the Taliban is getting cozy with China. _China_ wants Kabul. It would complete their Belt & Road collection and give the CCP easy access to Afghanistan's coal and other minerals.


I agree with you but my question on China is their treatment of Muslims in their country.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> I agree with you but my question on China is their treatment of Muslims in their country.


Right? I don't know how the CCP and Taliban will work that out, but the CCP isn't adverse to lying, and they are determined to get access to Kabul. And by "access to", the CCP means "control of".


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## fmdog44 (Aug 14, 2021)

A former U.S. Army was on the tube this morning adding to the reason the govt. is losing to the Taliban is lack of weapons and ammo and supplies Again, what were we doing there if that is true? Handing out rocks and rubber bands? The govt. troops are said to be surrendering by the droves. We will never know the extent of the massacre coming to a those that sided with the U.S. troops not to mention the women. We walked away from Syria and now Afghanistan right or wrong it is not good PR.


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## jerry old (Aug 14, 2021)

Goot stuff as usual Trax
Someday bin Laden will be declared a saint (however that's done by Muslin's Hierarchy )

Lots of info here, how could we get ourselves into another Vietnam?


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## Alligatorob (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Syria


Another place we should never have been...


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## Pepper (Aug 14, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Afghanistan right or wrong it is not good PR.


PR for who(m)?  It's Might, not Right.


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Aug 14, 2021)

Will The Taliban Take Kabul on 9-11?​
I hope so; that war launched by GW Bush and carried through by him and Obama was a huge waste of taxpayer money and human lives. We have no right to be there and need to leave as quickly as possible. What happens afterward is not our business.


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## Been There (Aug 14, 2021)

Don M. said:


> For Sure!  The US has given the Afghan military a huge amount of vehicles and arms.  It appears that the Afghan military is just quietly giving up, and the Taliban is taking the weapons and vehicles.


A few months ago I posted that the Taliban would takeover Afghanistan once Americans began their pullout and I was belittled for that post.

One of the other items you missed that the Taliban will be inheriting is the $700+ million dollar U.S. Embassy that was built with our tax money. This pullout plan has been a disaster and a whiplashing to the backs of those military personnel that gave their all. Total assets that will be handed over to the Taliban is in the billions of dollars. They probably won’t even thank us.


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## Nathan (Aug 14, 2021)

Aunt Bea said:


> The situation reminds me of helicopter parents that are shocked when their children turn 18 and are not self sufficient adults.
> 
> We’ve spent an entire generation doing the heavy lifting and now we find out that either the people of *Afghanistan are not able to defend themselves or perhaps have no interest in the agenda that we’ve been promoting.*
> 
> The whole thing has been a tragic waste on so many levels.



I imagine it's hard to get excited and supportive over a war that some foreign power decided was necessary on their homeland.

Vietnam revisited.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 14, 2021)

Nathan said:


> I imagine it's hard to get excited and supportive over a war that some foreign power decided was necessary on their homeland.
> 
> Vietnam revisited.


I agree.

I hope that we learn from this but I have my doubts.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 14, 2021)

Don M. said:


> For Sure!  The US has given the Afghan military a huge amount of vehicles and arms.  It appears that the Afghan military is just quietly giving up, and the Taliban is taking the weapons and vehicles.


You might not believe this, but the US military knew that the Taliban would take that stuff. It was intentional. They knew that either the Taliban or Afghan rebels (it didn't matter which) would use it against a large number of Hamas soldiers that had crept in. (Plus, not worth the cost of moving it)

My son served in Afghanistan shortly before he retired at the rank of Chief Petty Officer (Seabees/reserves), and a lot of his former subordinates and fellows keep in frequent touch with him.


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

Trax: was read your Taliban Links, received email that Kabul fell to the Taliban.
CNN says there are still staff members in U.S. Embassy.
The 5000 American Troops some are in-country, a few, (How Many? CNN fuzzy on topic)
No slaughter of Americans is taking place, none expected


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## Alligatorob (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> No slaughter of Americans is taking place, none expected


Hope that is true and continues.  I would think the Taliban would see no value and some risk in attacking our people.  

But then the Taliban have done a lot of things that make no sense to me.


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Hope that is true and continues.  I would think the Taliban would see no value and some risk in attacking our people.
> 
> But then the Taliban have done a lot of things that make no sense to me.



Yea, your right, the hierarchy doesn't want to irritate U.S., but as you say, no telling what a local commander might do=dicey


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## Lewkat (Aug 15, 2021)

The Taliban is there and in the Presidential Palace and Parliament.


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## mellowyellow (Aug 15, 2021)

Nobody foresaw the Afghan Army's refusal to fight, it's tragic.


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Aug 15, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Nobody foresaw the Afghan Army's refusal to fight, it's tragic.


Tragic? Or more befitting of a comedy of errors, with the US government and a succession of presidents playing the buffoons?


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

The Russians gave it ten hard years.
We didn't learn a lot from their failure.

There already playing the blame game on the news channels 

(Mellow: have noted that Great Britain appeared to us Aussie and New Zealand troops as cannon fodder-is that a topic in your world?)


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## Lewkat (Aug 15, 2021)

Unfortunately, we got involved as the terrorists from 9/11 were partly trained in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.  

This entire episode is not going to end well for America nor Afghanistan, methinks.


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## Gaer (Aug 15, 2021)

9-11?  You mean 8-15?


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## Lewkat (Aug 15, 2021)

Gaer said:


> 9-11?  You mean 8-15?


?


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 15, 2021)

Nathan said:


> history inevitably will always repeat itself





It does and it did again.

The imperialistic invasion failed as it did in Iraq and Vietnam because the USA failed to win over the majority of the population in those countries.  True, the wars did generate huge profits for the military industrial complex which was the real intent behind each war despite all the pro war propaganda you got from the news media. But despite all the trillions wasted in the wars they were lost as the patriots in those countries fought to defend their countries and their governments over the puppet regimes imposed by Washington DC.  This is not what you see in the Fox network or the rest of the pro war media.  But it is fact whether anyone choose to believe it or not.


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## mellowyellow (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> The Russians gave it ten hard years.
> We didn't learn a lot from their failure.
> 
> There already playing the blame game on the news channels
> ...


Yes Jerry, the old bulldog was no friend of Australia

_Although happy to take all the sailors, soldiers and airmen that Australia was prepared to place at his disposal for the defence of Britain, Churchill had no concern about Australia's fate when Japan's conquering armies menaced Australia. His assurances of British military support for Australia against the Japanese were lies. He had already betrayed Australia to the Japanese at the Arcadia Conference held in Washington in late December 1941. Churchill even resisted the return of Australian troops from the Middle East to defend their own country; he wanted to use them In Burma to defend India against the advancing Japanese._

https://www.pacificwar.org.au/battaust/Britain_betrays_Australia.html


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## Don M. (Aug 15, 2021)

I firmly believe that the U.S. should keep its nose out of the strife that other nations face.  Teddy Roosevelt had it right, IMO....Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick.  If we, or our close allies are attacked, we should respond quickly and with maximum force to show the "attackers" that they made a Bad decision.   In this case, the objective should have been to "eliminate" Bin Laden, then let Afghanistan figure out how to handle the Taliban on their own....IMO.  If their people think that such "extremism" is acceptable, there is little we can do to change their minds.


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## AnnieA (Aug 15, 2021)

Non-extremist Afghans--especially women--are who we need to prioritize for legal asylum.  But illegals like the woman from Guatemala who came across the Mexican border because her utility bills were going up are clogging the system for those truly in danger.


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## senior chef (Aug 15, 2021)

Kabul has fallen to the Taliban.  The country is now another failed nation state, AND a future home to world Islamic terrorism. Get ready America, the next Osama Bin laden is coming.


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## Warrigal (Aug 15, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The imperialistic invasion failed as it did in Iraq and Vietnam because the USA failed to win over the majority of the population in those countries.


From my perspective in Australia I can see parallels with Vietnam in that the US and allies destroyed goodwill of the people by treating them with contempt. Obviously I'm not talking about the majority of the troops but at the moment one of our most highly decorated servicemen (Victoria Cross) is accused of committing war crimes, In a nutshell, he is accused of murdering some men who had surrendered and were constrained, and by encouraging new Australian soldiers to murder villagers to "blood" them.

My Lai in Vietnam was a demonstration of contempt for the locals and I can remember the green on blue shootings in Afghanistan that revealed the hostility of locals toward  foreign troops.



> The spike in green-on-blue attacks (also known as "insider attacks") in Afghanistan in 2012 is a worrying development that has the potential to endanger the International Security Assistance Force's (ISAF) mission to train and prepare Afghan security forces for the challenges of stabilizing the country. It is important to establish both the scope of the green-on-blue threat as well as the context in which the attacks occur.
> 
> General trends in green-on-blue attacks​From 2007 to 2012, there have been 71 documented green-on-blue attacks. It is difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the principal causes of these attacks given the small total number of incidents, but there are discernible trends.
> 
> ...



Australian troops have fought beside US military in every engagement since WW II. Can anyone remember even one of these that ended well?


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## FastTrax (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Goot stuff as usual Trax
> Someday bin Laden will be declared a saint (however that's done by Muslin's Hierarchy )
> 
> Lots of info here, how could we get ourselves into another Vietnam?



What I was always curious about is when our troops ended the lives of Saddams two sons and he was hung by his own and these two events were viewed by all of humanity with a collective sigh of relief, yet BHO felt the need to consider the sensitivity of OBL's family so OBL was uncerimoniously deep sixed somewhere East of West and North of South. Strange.


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## FastTrax (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Trax: was read your Taliban Links, received email that Kabul fell to the Taliban.
> CNN says there are still staff members in U.S. Embassy.
> The 5000 American Troops some are in-country, a few, (How Many? CNN fuzzy on topic)
> No slaughter of Americans is taking place, none expected



I just checked CNN news and it has been reported that all of the Embassy staff has been evacuated. I hope the videos are released to Youtube next week. If I see anything I'll post them here ASAP. Should be interesting. I heard tell that some of the unencrypted HF military comms are being monitored and archive recorded on websdr & kiwisdr.


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## FastTrax (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> The Russians gave it ten hard years.
> We didn't learn a lot from their failure.
> 
> There already playing the blame game on the news channels
> ...



Correct me if I am wrong jo but didn't we send advisors over there to help Bin Ladin defeat the Red Menace? Sorta like when Bush Sr. headed the CIA and was photographed sitting on a sofa with Noriega while Noriega was dumping tons of cocaine into the Ports of Miami and Los Angeles and when the Canal contract went South he gets extradited all over this planet then dies in his homeland. Convenient. I guess policy shifts are probably feared by spies and global bedfellows more then intelligence leaks.


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> What I was always curious about is when our troops ended the lives of Saddams two sons and he was hung by his own and these two events were viewed by all of humanity with a collective sigh of relief, yet BHO felt the need to consider the sensitivity of OBL's family so OBL was uncerimoniously deep sixed somewhere East of West and North of South. Strange.



Iraq does not have anywhere near the oil reserves the Saudi's have, not even close.  If Iraq had 'big oil' why the invasion of Kuwait.
There was a lot of discussion of how much oil Iraq had after the war.

The Saudi's have lot of oil.
Their political significance is huge even bigger is their leadership of the Muslin World

Kind'a irritates me we walk on eggshells when dealing with one of the world's most repressive governments.
Finally, Saddam had no backup, he killed his political competitions.  

Dictators do that; well how come the Saudi's don't have internal political problems.
They do, but there all family members


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## FastTrax (Aug 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> @FastTrax - I'll bet the CCP wouldn't mind getting in on the opium trade, too....as long as the people of China don't have access to it. They certainly have the clout to offer the Taliban an expansion of sales.



Murrmurr you just hit the nail on it's head. China has their hand in more global pies while it's gullible victims mistake their malevolence for benevolence. Africa has been feeling the serpents sting for the last 5 years give or take a century or two.


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## FastTrax (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Iraq does not have anywhere near the oil reserves the Saudi's have, not even close.  If Iraq had 'big oil' why the invasion of Kuwait.
> There was a lot of discussion of how much oil Iraq had after the war.
> 
> The Saudi's have lot of oil.
> ...



Also they are in bed with our leaders. Perfect example is Bandar Bush smoking a stogie with GBJ while the Pentagon burned in the distance. Saw that scene on Michael Moores Fahrenheit 9/11 video.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 15, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> Murrmurr you just hit the nail on it's head. China has their hand in more global pies while it's gullible victims mistake their malevolence for benevolence. Africa has been feeling the serpents sting for the last 5 years give or take a century or two.


I also think I'm right that the Taliban's increasing power in Afghanistan will create an eventual power struggle between them and Hamas and no doubt Hezbollah, too. It will be interesting to see who steps in the hardest, China or Russia.


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> Correct me if I am wrong jo but didn't we send advisors over there to help Bin Ladin defeat the Red Menace? Sorta like when Bush Sr. headed the CIA and was photographed sitting on a sofa with Noriega while Noriega was dumping tons of cocaine into the Ports of Miami and Los Angeles and when the Canal contract went South he gets extradited all over this planet then dies in his homeland. Convenient. I guess policy shifts are probably feared by spies and global bedfellows more then intelligence leaks.


Well, not friends, chums war chums, especially the Northern Alliance.
Also, with any other Alliances we could locate.  No weapons, we were just trying to feel them out.
Remember, we were always seeking our Stinger Missiles.

Not sure what we were trying to woe from Afghan, they have minerals, lots and lots of minerals.
They wouldn't be that difficult to conquer; a bunch of  folks runnning around in their pajamas-come on.
Russia didn't understand Muslims, that is why they failed; we, of course, knew all about Muslims.

We had a limited presence, as always we thought dealing with the political leaders was how to get things done.
We were unable to use our powerbroking ability in Afgan.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noruega:  just prove to me he is  still in jail.


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## Devi (Aug 15, 2021)

Well, it appears that the Taliban has already taken Kabul:

https://nypost.com/2021/08/15/taliban-assumes-control-of-afghanistan-reports/


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## jerry old (Aug 15, 2021)

There was a political family in power when many of the problems discussed occurred.
Their off limits so we will just have to eat leaves.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 15, 2021)

jerry old said:


> Well, not friends, chums war chums, especially the Northern Alliance.
> Also, with any other Alliances we could locate.  No weapons, we were just trying to feel them out.
> Remember, we were always seeking our Stinger Missiles.
> 
> *Not sure what we were trying to woe from Afghan, they have minerals, lots and lots of minerals.*


Minerals, yes. Also geographically strategic, but we needed their cooperation and it wasn't forthcoming. Kind of like when Ho Chi Minh told the US, "Meh, I'm gonna be friends with Russia. But thanks for everything."


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## Murrmurr (Aug 15, 2021)

Lewkat said:


> ?


Meaning it happened on 8/15, not on 9/11.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 15, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Kabul has fallen to the Taliban.  The country is now another failed nation state, AND a future home to world Islamic terrorism. Get ready America, the next Osama Bin laden is coming.




It is a matter of record that OBL would not have succeeded without CIA money and war materiél.  If another character like him does come along you can bet it is because he was financed by your tax dollars and groomed by your government.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 15, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Nobody foresaw the Afghan Army's refusal to fight, it's tragic.




Actually no real surprise given that the vast majority of Afghanistan's citizens were loyal to the Taliban, not to puppet regime imposed by Bush just like Hitler did when he imposed Quisling on the people of Norway.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 15, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I also think I'm right that the Taliban's increasing power in Afghanistan will create an eventual power struggle between them and Hamas and no doubt Hezbollah, too. It will be interesting to see who steps in the hardest, China or Russia.




Very doubtful since Hamas is a nationalist organization meaning that it has no political interest outside of its borders. Hezbollah is a Shiia affiliate.  Shiia and Sunni have been at war with each other for centuries.


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## senior chef (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> It is a matter of record that OBL would not have succeeded without CIA money and war materiél.  If another character like him does come along you can bet it is because he was financed by your tax dollars and groomed by your government.


You know full well that that CIA money was used to fight the Russians when Russia was trying to subdue Afghanistan.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Very doubtful since Hamas is a nationalist organization meaning that it has no political interest outside of its borders. Hezbollah is a Shiia affiliate.  Shiia and Sunni have been at war with each other for centuries.


Hezbollah is has already had a meeting with the Taliban, just before the Taliban took Kabul. 
Hezbollah is fairly friendly with Hamas.
Safe to say the US is banking on a lot of friction between those 3.
And if friction leads to chaos (it will), something that the CCP absolutely cannot abide, then they all got played.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Kabul has fallen to the Taliban.  The country is now another failed nation state, AND a future home to world Islamic terrorism. Get ready America, the next Osama Bin laden is coming.


Unfortunately you are probably right.  Had we withdrawn right after Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden were driven from Afghanistan, ~19 years ago, we would have left with the impression that American power was something to be reckoned with.  Now we are leaving looking weak, and having wasted many lives and dollars in the process...  And as you say leaving a greater risk of future problems.

We are not, and cannot be the World's police.  Don't know how many of these things we need to learn that lesson.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Can anyone remember even one of these that ended well?


Yes, the first Iraqi War.  We went in with a clear and limited goal of freeing Kuwait.  We did it in defense of an ally and once the goal was achieved we left, or stopped fighting anyway.  The temptation to invade Iraq was resisted.  That worked, not much else has.


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## Oris Borloff (Aug 16, 2021)

Anyone remember a "Wide World of Sports" episode in the early '80's  that the stated theme was mountain climbing in Afghanistan, but in reality was a documentary about the resistance fighting  the Russians?


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

Oris Borloff said:


> Anyone remember a "Wide World of Sports" episode in the early '80's  that the stated theme was mountain climbing in Afghanistan, but in reality was a documentary about the resistance fighting  the Russians?


No, but now someone has a golden opportunity to make a sequel to "Charlie Wilson's War".  Maybe this scene could be reused:


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## mellowyellow (Aug 16, 2021)

_Russia plans to partially evacuate staff from its embassy in Kabul following the Taliban’s swift takeover of the Afghan capital, a Foreign Ministry official said today.  “We have a relatively large embassy in Afghanistan, it’s about 100 people altogether. Some of our employees will be sent on vacation or evacuated in some other way so as not to create too much of a presence," Kabulov said.

The militant group has already set up a perimeter around the Russian embassy, Kabulov added.

The official on Monday also said that Moscow will decide on recognizing the new Taliban government based "on the conduct of the new authorities. We will carefully see how responsibly they govern the country in the near future and based on the results, the Russian leadership will draw the necessary conclusions," Kabulov said. _

Source: The Moscow Times


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## Chet (Aug 16, 2021)

I heard reports on the radio this morning that our troops were withdrawn then even more sent in while thousands of American civilians were told to shelter in place. Some planning!


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## Sunny (Aug 16, 2021)

hawkdon said:


> This whole business in that country is astonishing...as others have said the people in there don't care about their own future, who runs things and so on...it is mind blowing...what a useless
> war it was.....imho



I have never understood why we are there at all, let alone 20 years after 9/11, which from my (very limited) knowledge the Taliban was not responsible for anyway.  Why have we hung on there so long, and what did we expect to accomplish?


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

Sunny said:


> from my (very limited) knowledge the Taliban was not responsible for anyway


My knowledge is also limited, but I believe the only role the Taliban played was in sheltering Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.  Which ended pretty quickly after our initial invasion, I never did understand why we stayed after that...

Over the years lots of people have sheltered Bin Laden and/or Al-Qaeda, including the Saudis.


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## RadishRose (Aug 16, 2021)

Well, it looks like they took it already


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## hawkdon (Aug 16, 2021)

I'm laughing at the News folks on ALL channels, foaming at the mouth while trying to put the blame on Biden....sorry idiots, the
blame goes on the backs of the Regular Afghan citizens who REFUSE to defend their country.....imo


----------



## Don M. (Aug 16, 2021)

IMO, if the people in those areas want to support extremists such as the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and Hamas, etc., that is their choice, and they can live with the results.  If those extremists try to engage in terrorist activity that affects us, we should mount a quick and massive response to punish them, then let them live with their stupidity.


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## drifter (Aug 16, 2021)

8-15-21: It is already taken. We may now need their permission o evacuate our personnel from the airport.


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## Gaer (Aug 16, 2021)

Sad!  This was predictable and preventable.  The way this was handled without conditions is a U.S. embarrassment.
Pray for the women and the interpreters.  Seriously!  Use your strong thought to help them.
 This is devastating!


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## helenbacque (Aug 16, 2021)

Good move. Now do Gitmo.


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## JustBonee (Aug 16, 2021)

drifter said:


> 8-15-21: It is already taken. We may now need their permission o evacuate our personnel from the airport.



US officials say 7 killed in Kabul airport evacuation chaos​https://apnews.com/article/afghanistan-taliban-784681c4400b097cf73b93cec34c5c61


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## Chet (Aug 16, 2021)

Since Afghanistan is and will be in the news for a while, I got a view of the country from Google maps. I zoomed in on Bagram Air Base and Kabul. It gives you a little more perspective of the place.


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## AnnieA (Aug 16, 2021)

This article explains much of what went wrong with the Afghan army's swift defeat, but ...warning!... has a lot of US political stuff we can't discuss. I can't even post the title. But there's plenty of blame to cast on both political flavors over the past 20 years.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/08/afghanistan-taliban-advance-collapse.html

Key points:

1)  The Taliban are guerrilla fighters which means mobile, quick attacks on stationary Afghan bases ....big 'ole sitting duck fat targets.   For the Afghan army to maintain an adequate defense against the Taliban, we could've withdrawn our combat troops but left a few critical infrastructure staff in place such as air support, logistics, intelligence and surveillance.​​2) Direct quote from the article: "Taliban are more passionate and determined about fighting for their cause. Many Afghans, including many Afghan soldiers, hate and fear the Taliban, but they don’t feel much love or loyalty toward their government. Back in 2010 ... top U.S. military officers publicly warned that more troops would have little effect if the Afghan government didn’t clean up its corruption. ... The Taliban exploited that fact as well, preying on the Afghan people’s resentment of their leaders."​
Given point 2, point 1 probably wouldn't have helped much unless we helped forever.

I so wish we'd systematically evacuated vulnerable, native allies (heartbroken for the women who served in the Afghan military) and then just conceded defeat.  No one in recorded history has ever defeated Afghan guerrilla fighters in large part due to the topography.

.


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## Been There (Aug 16, 2021)

Don M. said:


> I firmly believe that the U.S. should keep its nose out of the strife that other nations face.  Teddy Roosevelt had it right, IMO....Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick.  If we, or our close allies are attacked, we should respond quickly and with maximum force to show the "attackers" that they made a Bad decision.   In this case, the objective should have been to "eliminate" Bin Laden, then let Afghanistan figure out how to handle the Taliban on their own....IMO.  If their people think that such "extremism" is acceptable, there is little we can do to change their minds.


Sometimes governments have to decide if it’s better to fight the war on their own homeland or their opponents. The U.S. had to respond  to al-Qaeda after they left a field of destruction on 911. It was best to fight them on their own territory for a various reasons.


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## Been There (Aug 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> My knowledge is also limited, but I believe the only role the Taliban played was in sheltering Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.  Which ended pretty quickly after our initial invasion, I never did understand why we stayed after that...
> 
> Over the years lots of people have sheltered Bin Laden and/or Al-Qaeda, including the Saudis.


The decision was made to aide in building up the Afghan Army, so the U.S. could leave ASAP. Unfortunately, there were too many issues and stumbling blocks early on that needed to be addressed and this slowed that processed. The Afghan president was in a battle to keep power and needed the Americans to help him hold the line. It was months or maybe a few years before he was able to keep control.

While working in the Pentagon, I was temporarily assigned to the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs. The U.S. had already been involved in a major arms build up in Afghanistan at the time, which meant to most of us that we were planning to be there for a long time. My department was responsible for procuring all of the armaments and artillery. The special ops troops had their own wish list and they were at the top of the list to be served. We took good care of those men and women. Women? Oh yes, there were a few that fought alongside the Rangers and Green Berets in certain circumstances.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Hezbollah is has already had a meeting with the Taliban, just before the Taliban took Kabul.
> Hezbollah is fairly friendly with Hamas.
> Safe to say the US is banking on a lot of friction between those 3.
> And if friction leads to chaos (it will), something that the CCP absolutely cannot abide, then they all got played.




You need to dismiss the pro war propaganda from the Jerusalem Post and Fox along with the rest of the news media.  These FAKE NEWS sources tell you that Hezbollah, Hamas,   ISIS, al-Qaeda,  al-Daawa, and others are inter related and that that the governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and others love them.  If you read actual news sources from these groups you will find that you have been fed pro war lies.  Every day you are fed these lies.

Iran (and its proxy Hezbollah) in alliance with ISIL/Isis?  Nonsense.  See: Iran and ISIL - Wikipedia

quote:  "Iran is an opponent of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), fighting the group in Syria and Iraq."  Iranians marched into Iraq and fought both groups.   No nation on earth hates Iran more than does Saudi Arabia which has supported ISIL: WIKILEAKS: Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Funds and Logistically Supports ISIL | HuffPost

Mujahideen pals with al-Daawa?  Nothing could be further from the truth: al Da'wah Party | Terrorist Groups | TRAC (trackingterrorism.org) as they have been at war for many years ~  ''2006 Mujahideen Shura Council attack on the headquarters of al Dawa'' .  


I could give you many other sources to prove that the lies you get from Fox and the controlled pro war media are FAKE NEWS fabrications designed to promote hate and to foment wars.  But it's best that you do this on your own.  Look up authentic sites from those countries and from anti war groups so that you can learn the TRUTH rather than the pro war lies.


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 16, 2021)

With the swiftness of their actions, I knew they'd take Kabul way before 9/11. @senior chef What they are doing is UN-Islamic! But unfortunately, these are the maniacs people look at and model their belief about we Muslims.  Makes me sick!!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Been There said:


> Sometimes governments have to decide if it’s better to fight the war on their own homeland or their opponents. The U.S. had to respond  to al-Qaeda after they left a field of destruction on 911. It was best to fight them on their own territory for a various reasons.





It is a matter of record that it was the CIA financed and empowered al-Qaeda.  Stay out of the Middle East because their issues are no concern of ours and stop financing their political groups. That will stop the problem.


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## senior chef (Aug 16, 2021)

OneEyedDiva said:


> With the swiftness of their actions, I knew they'd take Kabul way before 9/11. @senior chef What they are doing is UN-Islamic! But unfortunately, these are the maniacs people look at and model their belief about we Muslims.  Makes me sick!!


Many will be murdered. It's going to be a blood bath.
I feel very sorry for the women and girls who thought that they had a chance at a decent life. That dream is now dead.


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## senior chef (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> It is a matter of record that it was the CIA financed and empowered al-Qaeda.  Stay out of the Middle East because their issues are no concern of ours and stop financing their political groups. That will stop the problem.


Non-sense !  The CIA backed those who fought against the Russians.  And ONLY then, as you bloody well know. Once the Russians were defeated, the arms and money stopped.
The "problem" will never stop. It has been going on since time immemorial. If they are not killing Jews, then they are killing each other. When they are not busy killing each other ... they are killing us.
In any event, they don't need our money. Petro-dollars, from every nation on earth, eventually finds it's way into their pockets.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

hawkdon said:


> I'm laughing at the News folks on ALL channels, foaming at the mouth while trying to put the blame on Biden....sorry idiots, the
> blame goes on the backs of the Regular Afghan citizens who REFUSE to defend their country.....imo




But did they actually REFUSE to defend their country?

I don't think so.  

In refusing to fight the Taliban they showed that their real allegiance was to them, not to the puppet regime imposed by Bush.  Thus, they actually did fight for their country be becoming allies with its invading enemy.


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## Been There (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> It is a matter of record that it was the CIA financed and empowered al-Qaeda.  Stay out of the Middle East because their issues are no concern of ours and stop financing their political groups. That will stop the problem.


What guarantee do you have that they won’t bring the fight to you? 
Are you referring to the money paid from the CIA for ransom of Americans?


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> Non-sense !  The CIA backed those who fought against the Russians.  And ONLY then, as you bloody well know. Once the Russians were defeated, the arms and money stopped.
> The "problem" will never stop. It has been going on since time immemorial. If they are not killing Jews, then they are killing each other. When they are not busy killing each other ... they are killing us.
> In any event, they don't need our money. Petro-dollars, from every nation on earth, eventually finds it's way into their pockets.




And who financed the Bolsheviks thereby creating the Soviet state?

Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony C. Sutton (goodreads.com)


Professor Sutton was a CONSERVATIVE.  His speeches are readily available on youtube.  Check them out for yourself.


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## AnnieA (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> You need to dismiss the pro war propaganda from the Jerusalem Post and Fox along with the rest of the news media.



All American news sources have a propaganda angle.  It's best to read a sampling from both sides, international sources and_ try_ to decipher the truth.


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## Been There (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> But did they actually REFUSE to defend their country?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> In refusing to fight the Taliban they showed that their real allegiance was to them, not to the puppet regime imposed by Bush.  Thus, they actually did fight for their country be becoming allies with its invading enemy.


That’s kind of disingenuous. The Afghan Army never held up its end of the bargain. The U.S. cut a deal to defend their country while their Army trained under U.S. guidance. The U.S. also supplied millions and maybe billions of dollars in building up their Arsenal. They were to take command of their country and the U.S. would leave. For whatever reason, some of that is still classified, the Afghan army could never answer the call. You are right, Bush didn’t help matters much and I’ll leave it at that.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Been There said:


> The Afghan Army never held up its end of the bargain. The U.S. cut a deal to defend their country while their Army trained under U.S. guidance.





I believe the deal was between the US government and the puppet regime imposed by Bush.  Bush did not sign a contract or enter into an agreement with the people of Afghanistan who have recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time.  This is why they refuse to fight against them.

Think of it this way: if the UN invaded Washington DC, imposed a puppet regime, and if you were a soldier,  Would your loyalty be with that puppet or with the people of the USA?    I believe that I can say with a high degree of certainty that your loyalty is and all always be with the land that gave you and your family life.  Not with some foreign imposed puppet.  The same, I'm sure, can readily be said with just about everyone in SeniorForums.


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## AnnieA (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> ...the people of Afghanistan who have recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time. ...



That's a stretch.    Afghanistan had been fighting a civil war for much of 1978-2001. The Afghan army that just fell to the Taliban didn't have much heart to fight for the US sponsored corrupt government, but to say that the Taliban is the preferred government of the people is absurd considering the people trying to flee the country and the many, many reports of abuses of women by the Taliban that have accelerated in recent days.

It's good to at least attempt post excerpts from sources for hyperbolic claims.

(I didn't quote your whole post since you're violating forum politics rules.)


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## Been There (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I believe the deal was between the US government and the puppet regime imposed by Bush.  Bush did not sign a contract or enter into an agreement with the people of Afghanistan who have recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time.  This is why they refuse to fight against them.
> 
> Think of it this way: if the UN invaded Washington DC, imposed a puppet regime, and if you were a soldier,  Would your loyalty be with that puppet or with the people of the USA?    I believe that I can say with a high degree of certainty that your loyalty is and all always be with the land that gave you and your family life.  Not with some foreign imposed puppet.  The same, I'm sure, can readily be said with just about everyone in SeniorForums.


I get what you’re stating, however, it’s not cut and dry over there. The Taliban has to also be concerned with al-qaeda. Both want to rule the country. It’s kind of remarkable that they haven’t either enjoined or been at war with one another. They seem to be working in conjunction with one another, except they don’t trust one another. And, this is just my opinion. I left the Pentagon a few years ago and have very little contact with anyone who would be willing to share information with me. Things happen very quickly in the mid-east.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Been There said:


> The Taliban has to also be concerned with al-qaeda. Both want to rule the country.





This is the first I've ever seen anyone say AQ is a politically oriented group. Every other source I've seen acknowledges it as a militant, not political group. Can you back that up with any source?


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## Don M. (Aug 16, 2021)

The Kabul airport is total chaos as people are trying to leave Afghanistan.  They are clinging to departing aircraft, and there have even been reports of some plummeting to the ground as the aircraft took off.    

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kabul-airport-chaos-video-taliban-afghan-planes-145655579.html


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

Don M. said:


> The Kabul airport is total chaos as people are trying to leave Afghanistan


Looks very familiar to me.  My father was a civilian employee of the US Air Force at the end in Vietnam.  He actually got out 2 days before the end, the helicopter on the embassy roof day.  He flew out in a plane that had been stripped of everything removable, seats included, to pack as many people on as possible.  No one was allowed any luggage, just the clothes they had on.  Most in the plane were Vietnamese, in the chaos he got mixed in.  He was flow to a refugee camp in Guam, it took days before he was able to contact us and tell us he was safe.  That was before cell phones and the internet.

In the end most Americans got out of Vietnam safely, even those left behind at the end.  A lot of Vietnamese were not so lucky.


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## Nathan (Aug 16, 2021)

senior chef said:


> *Kabul has fallen to the Taliban.  The country is now another failed nation state, AND a future home to world Islamic terrorism.* Get ready America, the next Osama Bin laden is coming.


Afghanistan has simply returned to where it was, prior to the U.S. occupation.  Nothing's changed.   Sounds a lot like the case with Vietnam, foreign powers invade, occupy...then leave...country returns to normal.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 16, 2021)

Nathan said:


> Afghanistan has simply returned to where it was, prior to the U.S. occupation.  Nothing's changed.   Sounds a lot like the case with Vietnam, foreign powers invade, occupy...then leave...country returns to normal.


Very similar to Iran in the 70s vs Iran today.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> You need to dismiss the pro war propaganda from the Jerusalem Post and Fox along with the rest of the news media.  These FAKE NEWS sources tell you that Hezbollah, Hamas,   ISIS, al-Qaeda,  al-Daawa, and others are inter related and that that the governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and others love them.  If you read actual news sources from these groups you will find that you have been fed pro war lies.  Every day you are fed these lies.
> 
> Iran (and its proxy Hezbollah) in alliance with ISIL/Isis?  Nonsense.  See: Iran and ISIL - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


I don't watch Fox news. I don't watch CNN, either. And I didn't mention ISIS, Mujahideen, al-Qaeda, or al-Daawa. They are not involved whatsoever in what I was talking about.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I don't watch Fox news. I don't watch CNN, either. And I didn't mention ISIS, Mujahideen, al-Qaeda, or al-Daawa. They are not involved whatsoever in what I was talking about.




You made a general statement but offered no evidence to support it. I have seen similar comments in the Jerusalem Post and Fox but not in any reliable sources.  Look all you want and you will never find any proof to verify the comment you made. It simply does not exist.   By contrast, I made a declaration and backed it up with valid sources. Shiia and Sunni denominations are at war with each other - have been for centuries.   We have no business intervening in their affairs.


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## AnnieA (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> You made a general statement but offered no evidence to support it.



Pot meet kettle.  I'm still waiting for your sources showing that the "vast majority of Afghanistan's citizens were loyal to the Taliban."  I'd especially like to hear from the "vast majority" of women Taliban supporters.


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## jerry old (Aug 16, 2021)

The role of the poppy in
Afghan has not been mentioned


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## mellowyellow (Aug 16, 2021)

......
_………..As district after district fell in this summer’s Taliban offensive, without much visible support from the Afghan national army and police forces, other soldiers simply made the calculation that it wasn’t worth fighting anymore—especially if the Taliban offered them safe passage home, as they usually did.

“Everyone just surrendered their guns and ran away,” said Rahimullah, a 25-year soldier who joined the army a year ago and served in the Shahr-e-Bozorg district of northeastern Badakhshan province. “We didn’t receive any help from the central government, and so the district fell without any fighting.”…………..

Source: The Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-army-collapse-taliban-11628958253_


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Pot meet kettle.  I'm still waiting for your sources showing that the "vast majority of Afghanistan's citizens were loyal to the Taliban."  I'd especially like to hear from the "vast majority" of women Taliban supporters.





As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:











No protests, no guns, all peacefully assemble. It took the Taliban no more than 1 week to reclaim what is theirs. True, a few treasonous types who collaborated with the invaders have tried to escape. But in a land of 40 million you don't see too many trying to leave.


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## mellowyellow (Aug 16, 2021)

I think America’s intentions were initially to dismantle terrorist groups who helped create such hatred towards the west, suicide bombers were lining up to blow us all up. Somehow, as time went by, the wheels fell off.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I think America’s intentions were initially to dismantle terrorist groups who helped create such hatred towards the west, suicide bombers were lining up to blow us all up. Somehow, as time went by, the wheels fell off.




People in the Middle East view the American occupation of their land as terrorism. No surprise as to why they hate the puppet regimes imposed by the West.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return


People always cheer on the victors, its the only safe thing to do...


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> People always cheer on the victors, its the only safe thing to do...





I remember when crowds cheered on when the Saddam statues were toppled in Iraq.  It was said at that time that the crowd was paid to be there. Dunno if true but that was the rumor.  The Taliban does not generally allow cheering.  If fact, they would take a small whip to your hands if you cheered at football matches.   As for those who think their resurgence is unpopular, how do you explain how they so easily, and I mean easily, took over and were just handed over weapons by Afghan soldiers?


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## Alligatorob (Aug 16, 2021)

No idea how popular or unpopular the Taliban are, and they are not about to allow a vote to see.  Once the Afghan soldiers believed they were on the losing side I suspect it was for self preservation.  Obviously the Taliban have some support, and not just a little.  But a majority?  We'll never know.

Clearly we had little to no support.  Sure hope we can learn our lesson and keep out of places like that.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

As I wrote before on this site, history shows that you cannot win a war and occupy a land successfully without support of the majority of its people.  This is why the invaders from the USA lost in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.  Had the majority supported the invasion and colonialist occupation the Taliban would have been defeated especially after the trillion dollars their enemies got.


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## Don M. (Aug 16, 2021)

The biggest losers in Afghanistan, in coming weeks, will be the women.  Just as they were beginning to lead a life of freedom, they will most likely be put back into a life of servitude.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Will be interesting to see how the minority groups such as Tajiks and others respond to this return of power and how they are treated.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 16, 2021)

Afghanistan’s military collapse: Illicit deals with Taliban and mass desertions - The Washington Post

Behind the collapse of the Afghan army: illicit deals and mass desertions​
The spectacular collapse of Afghanistan’s military that has allowed Taliban fighters to reach Kabul’s gates on Sunday despite 20 years of training and billions of dollars in US aid *It began with a series of agreements negotiated in rural villages between the militant group and some of the lower-ranking officials of the Afghan government.*

The deals, initially offered early last year, often *were described by Afghan officials as a ceasefire*, but the leaders T*aliban* in fact *they were offering money in exchange for government forces to hand over their weapons *according to an Afghan official and a US official.

Over the next year and a half, the meetings progressed to the district level and then rapidly to the provincial capitals, culminating in an impressive series of negotiated deliveries by government forces, according to interviews with more than a dozen Afghan officers, police , special operations troops and other soldiers.

*Over the past week, more than a dozen provincial capitals have fallen to Taliban forces with little or no resistance. In the early hours of Sunday, the government-held city of Jalalabad surrendered to the militants without firing, and the security forces in the districts surrounding Kabul simply vanished. Within hours, the Taliban forces arrived unopposed at the four main entrances to the Afghan capital.*


The pace of the military collapse has surprised many US officials and other foreign observers, forcing the US government to dramatically accelerate efforts to withdraw personnel from its Kabul embassy.

The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. *Some Afghan forces realized that they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial support on the battlefield and became receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.*

“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan Special Forces official said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the US commitment to a total withdrawal as a “guarantee” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because, like others in this report, he was not authorized to release information to the press.

The Doha agreement, designed to end the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, highlighting the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their* tenuous loyalty* to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid for six months or more.



*“They saw that document as the end”  *the official said in reference to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. *“The day the agreement was signed, we saw the change. Everyone was looking out to themselves. It was as if (the United States) let us fail. “*

Negotiated deliveries to the Taliban gradually picked up pace in the months after the Doha agreement, according to a US official and an Afghan official. Then, after President Joe Biden announced in April that US forces would withdraw from Afghanistan this summer unconditionally, capitulations began to grow.

*As militants expanded their control, government-occupied districts were increasingly left without a fight*. Kunduz, the first key city invaded by militants, was captured a week ago. Days of negotiations mediated by tribal elders resulted in a surrender agreement that handed over the last government-controlled base to the Taliban.

Soon after, negotiations in the western province of Herat resulted in the resignation of the governor, senior officials from the Interior and Intelligence Ministry and hundreds of troops. The agreement was concluded in a single night.


I was so embarrassed,” said a Kabul-based Interior Ministry official, referring to the handover of senior Interior Ministry official Abdul Rahman Rahman in Herat. “I am just a small person, I am not that big. If he does that, what should I do? “
Over the past month, the southern province of Helmand also witnessed a massive surrender. And when the Taliban fighters locked themselves in the southeastern province of Ghazni, its governor fled under the protection of the Taliban only to be arrested by the Afghan government on his way back to Kabul.
*Several capable and motivated elite units have participated in the Afghan army’s fight against the Taliban.* But they were often dispatched to provide back-up to less well-trained police and army units that have repeatedly withdrawn under pressure from the Taliban.
An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to guard a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. *“We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us. “*said the Special Forces officer.


Don't fire a single shot,” the commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. *Border police immediately surrendered, leaving the Special Forces unit alone*. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.
Not wanting to surrender or fight for the lowest, the unit downed their weapons, changed into civilian clothes, and fled their post.
“I am ashamed of what I have done,” said the first officer. But he said that if he had not fled, “my own government would have sold me to the Taliban.”

When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that *they have not been receiving their wages.* Several Afghan policemen on the front lines in Kandahar before the city’s fall said that *they had not been paid in six to nine months. The rewards from the Taliban have become increasingly attractive.*

“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught up in corruption. He took the traitors out of our army, ”said an Afghan police officer.
Several officers from the Kandahar police force said that *corruption was more to blame for collapse than incompetence*. “I honestly don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new, ”said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in the Kandahar police force.
In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture earlier this month, the number of victims in the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been constantly retiring for more than three months. He had hunched over and his garb more ragged. In an interview, he said that repeated withdrawals had bruised his pride, but that he was *unpaid*, which made him feel desperate.


*“The last time I saw you, the Taliban were offering $ 150 for anyone in the government to surrender and join them,” he told a journalist as the interview came to an end. “You know, what is the price now?”*

He didn’t laugh and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.



illegal deals
unpaid soldiers and police
corrupt government


''mass desertions'' ~ so massive that the trillion dollar  Afghan army collapsed under it.  


Small wonder why the vast majority of the Afghanistan populace are so readily disposed to side with the Taliban.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Why the Taliban Won​
Why the Taliban Won | Foreign Affairs


In the end, it took astoundingly little time after U.S. forces left Afghanistan for the Taliban to bring down its government: *ten days*.

... Afghan National Defense and Security Forces ... units were making deals with their supposed enemy—warning the Taliban of forthcoming offenses, refusing to fight, and selling the group weapons and equipment.

... the dramatic meltdown of Afghanistan’s army only exposes the *rot* that had been festering in Kabul’s halls of power for years. No wonder the *Afghan population trusted its government so little*, and no wonder one Afghan city after another surrendered to the Taliban this week.

...  the principal responsibility for this tragic end to 20 years of state-building efforts in Afghanistan lies squarely with the Afghan *leadership*. 


{elitist corruption} the ruling class in Kabul chose not to fix the military or improve governance. Instead, political leaders focused on *acquiring power and money for themselves* and patronage for their cliques. They constantly sought to generate political crises or administrative paralysis in order to extract more patronage and rents from the central government ... They saw little reason to reform the ANDSF or *respond to the needs of everyday Afghans*.








There you have it folks.  The trillion dollars you paid all went into the hands of the wealthy elites and the corrupt politicians in the puppet regime that governed Afghanistan. None went into the hands of the poor.  The poor were left to rot for the past twenty years.  Is it any wonder why the majority were so readily disposed to support the Taliban?  

This is what happens when a society decides to enrich the rich and to screw the poor. It will always be true whether in Afghanistan or here in the USA.  Do not enrich the wealthy.  Instead, prop up the poor and society will be better for it.  For those who are Christian read the Book of Amos in the Old Testament.  The entire book is based on that truthful premise.  This proves that premise is universal and of perpetual truth.


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## OneEyedDiva (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you thought some militants would blow your head off and those of your family members would you assemble other than peacefully? And where would all those people go? They know they won't be accepted here in the U.S. What means do they have to transport themselves to and find living quarters in who knows where? Fox News is a joke!


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## Warrigal (Aug 17, 2021)

Oldiebutgoody, I have never looked at the  Book of Amos so your last paragraph intrigued me. I am aware of the persistent theme in the OT of social justice for the poor. Jesus in the NT condemned the disregard of the wealthy for the plight of the poor. 

So I did look at Amos and this is the introduction that I found -



> The northern kingdom of Israel reached its greatest heights in the first half of the 8thcentury BC (2 Kings 14:23-25), during the forty-one-year reign of the powerful Jeroboam II. Confident in their nation’s victories, their worship, and their heritage, the people adopted the motto, “God is with us!” They were anticipating the day of the Lord, when God would strike down all their enemies and establish Israel as the undisputed ruler of the region.
> 
> Into this atmosphere of overconfident nationalism steps Amos, a shepherd from the southern kingdom of Judah. He stands in the great royal temple at Bethel and announces that God is stirring up a nation to conquer Israel. The day of the Lord,he insisted, will be darkness, not light. God isn’t impressed with Israel’s wealth, military might, or self-indulgent way of life. He is looking for justice, while the rich and powerful are taking advantage of the poor. God is calling Israel to repentance as the only way to avoid destruction.
> The message causes an uproar. Amaziah, the high priest at Bethel, accuses Amos of treason. Amos is banished from the kingdom, but his oracles are recorded, creating one of the earliest collections we have from any Hebrew prophet. The book consists of roughly three dozen separate oracles, plus the story of his expulsion. Most of the book is loosely assembled, but it conveys one strong and consistent message: Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!



I have a feeling that we need Amos as much now as Israel did in the 8th century BCE.


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## fuzzybuddy (Aug 17, 2021)

It's not so much that the Taliban are winning battles as the Afghan military is not fighting back. Why is the West always supports regimes with billions in military, and economic aid;  and those regimes are so hated by their citizens, their armies won't even fight for them?


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## helenbacque (Aug 17, 2021)

True peace in any country cannot be bought using someone else's dollars or blood.  It must come from the hearts of those involved.  If enough Afghani people wanted it, it would happen.  If 20 years did not bring it about, its doubtful 21 would either.


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 17, 2021)

This little article reminded me of the Wizard of Oz.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...ith-cars-helicopter-full-cash-ria-2021-08-16/

I'm curious to see if it can be verified.


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## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

All the weaponry we provided for the Afghan army is now in the hands of the Taliban. 20 years was 19 years too many.


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> As James Carafano of Fox said, Afghans cheer on the Taliban's return:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a massive celebration of the "vast majority of Afghan citizens" right there.         Heck of a lot of happy, welcoming women in the pic, too ....Not.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Looks like a massive celebration of the "vast majority of Afghan citizens" right there.         Heck of a lot of happy, welcoming women in the pic, too ....Not.




Recall that the Taliban does not allow cheering even in football games.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 17, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> All the weaponry we provided for the Afghan army is now in the hands of the Taliban. 20 years was 19 years too many.


The Taliban doesn't need the US military, they can get whatever they want from various sources, including China. Just depends on how they "behave" and who they want to align with now.

As for the Afghan people, they live by God's laws. For them, there is no other governance, and they're not likely to soldier for a government of men. The Taliban knows that.

The Taliban believes that even the slightest measure of western influence is unGodly. If western money happens to fall into their hands, that was God's will. Same with western tanks and guns.

Western influences had been creeping into Afghanistan for over a decade, and we wanted to keep it that way. The US was already "buying a friend" in Afghanistan, as it often does around the world, for strategic reasons, of course, but also to ensure they remain a democracy and a western ally. That's why we went in.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Oldiebutgoody, I have never looked at the  Book of Amos so your last paragraph intrigued me. I am aware of the persistent theme in the OT of social justice for the poor. Jesus in the NT condemned the disregard of the wealthy for the plight of the poor.
> 
> So I did look at Amos and this is the introduction that I found -
> 
> ...





Amos’s message stands as one of the most powerful voices ever to challenge hypocrisy and injustice. He boldly indicts kings, priests, and leaders (6:1; 7:9, 16–17). He stresses the importance and the divine origin of the prophetic word (3:3–8); one must either heed that word in its entirety or suffer its disappearance (8:11–12). Religion without justice is an affront to the God of Israel and, far from appeasing God, can only provoke divine wrath (5:21–27; 8:4–10). The Lord is not some petty national god but the sovereign creator of the cosmos (4:13; 5:8; 9:5–6). Amos alludes to historical forces at work through which God would exercise judgment on Israel (6:14). Several times he mentions deportation as the fate that awaits the people and their corrupt leaders (4:3; 5:5, 27; 7:17), a standard tactic of Assyrian foreign policy during this period. Through the prophetic word and various natural disasters (4:6–12) the Lord has tried to bring Israel to repentance, but to no avail. Israel’s rebelliousness has exhausted the divine patience and the destruction of Israel as a nation and as God’s people is inevitable (2:4, 13–16; 7:8–9). 

The Book of Amos - Bible Gateway



''Amos has much to say about oppression and the plight of the poor ... when the weak and helpless in society are crushed by the powerful.

"Amos desires only to uncover the evil that leads some to impoverish others for their own gain ...  When the Israelites defraud the poor, they just as surely defraud the Lord himself ...  dishonesty, corruption, and violence .. brings the overwhelming disaster"

Social Justice in Amos - The Good Book Blog - Biola University



What are those disasters? The nation's youth die in foreign wars, crop failure, weather disasters, widespread disease.  Does that sound like today's headlines?


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## Pepper (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> What are those disasters? The nation's youth die in foreign wars, crop failure, weather disasters, widespread disease. Does that sound like today's headlines?


SSDD
Same $***, Different Day


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

^ yep


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Post 98:  the people of Afghanistan who have recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time.  This is why they refuse to fight against them.





oldiebutgoody said:


> Recall that the Taliban does not allow cheering even in football games.




You keep ignoring the women.   Do you think Afghan women willingly "recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time?"   ...since you went political in Post #98, the politician referenced dated your statement to 2001.

You also aren't getting the fact that in 2001, Afghanistan had been fighting cyclical civil wars since the late 70s so there was no "exclusive government." If you had grasped that fact, you wouldn't have made the first quote above "exclusive govermnment" absurd statement in the first place.

But:  Gold star for you:     ....At least you have started acknowledging what was stated much earlier in the thread that the just overthrown Afghan government was corrupt and the Afghan army didn't have motivation to maintain it.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> You keep ignoring the women.   Do you think Afghan women willingly "recognized the Taliban as their exclusive government all this time?"   ...since you went political, the politician referenced dated your statement to 2001.
> 
> You also aren't getting the fact that in 2001, Afghanistan had been fighting cyclical civil wars since the late 70s so there was no "exclusive government." If you had grasped that fact, you wouldn't have made the first quote above "exclusive govermnment" absurd statement in the first place.
> 
> But:  Gold star for you:     ....At least you have started acknowledging what was stated much earlier in the thread that the just overthrown Afghan government was corrupt and the Afghan army didn't have motivation to maintain it.




Not ignoring the women.  I haven't seen any news reports.  How can I quote something that hasn't been reported?   If they object to the government, where are their howls of protest??  And if the women are protesting, where are those reports???  

Thanks for the Gold Star.  Again, I can only comment on what I see.  When those reports from Afghani women come in I shall endeavor to comment on them. Ditto for reports on the minority groups such as the Tajik and Hazara.  Hopefully, some reconciliation committee will be created and all will be better than what it was for 20 years under the corrupt Bush impose puppet regime.


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Not ignoring the women.  I haven't seen any news reports.  How can I quote something that hasn't been reported?   If they object to the government, where are their howls of protest??  And if the women are protesting, where are those reports???



The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear.  I'm sure there are a few Taliban women dedicated to their men, but am betting that percentage is basement level low.

Dunno if live footage of rape, floggings, beatings and executions will make mainstream news reports, but that's where you'll find your howls of protest.

Link from femininst.org:

The Taliban and Afghan Women

Excerpts:

The Taliban, an extremist militia, seized control first of Herat (1994) and then Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, on September 27, 1996 and violently plunged Afghanistan into a brutal state of totalitarian dictatorship and gender apartheid in which women and girls were stripped of their basic human rights.​​Upon seizing power, the Taliban regime instituted a system of gender apartheid effectively thrusting the women of Afghanistan into a state of virtual house arrest. Under Taliban rule women were stripped of all human rights – their work, visibility, opportunity for education, voice, healthcare, and mobility. When they took control in 1996, the Taliban initially imposed strict edicts that:​​
Banished women from the workforce​
Closed schools to girls and women and expelled women from universities​
Prohibited women from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a close male relative​
Ordered the publicly visible windows of women’s houses painted black and forced women to wear the burqa (or chadari) – which completely shrouds the body, leaving only a small mesh-covered opening through which to see​
Prohibited women and girls from being examined by male physicians while at the same time prohibited female doctors and nurses from working​
​Women were brutally beaten, publicly flogged, and killed for violating Taliban decrees. Even after international condemnation, the Taliban made only slight changes. Some say it was progress when the Taliban allowed a few women doctors and nurses to work, even while hospitals still had segregated wards for women. In Kabul and other cities, a few home schools for girls operated in secret. In addition, women who conducted home schools were risking their lives or a severe beating.​​
A woman who defied Taliban orders by running a home school for girls was killed in front of her family and friends.​
A woman caught trying to flee Afghanistan with a man not related to her was stoned to death for adultery.​
An elderly woman was brutally beaten with a metal cable until her leg was broken because her ankle was accidentally showing from underneath her burqa.​
Women and girls died of curable ailments because male doctors were not allowed to treat them. Two women accused of prostitution were publicly hung.​
Women in Afghanistan were educated and employed prior to the Taliban control, especially in the capital city Kabul and other major cities across the country. For example, 50% of the students and 60% of the teachers at Kabul University were women. In addition 70% of school teachers, 50% of civilian government workers, and 40% of doctors in Kabul were women.​


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear.  I'm sure there are a few Taliban women dedicated to their men, but am betting that percentage is basement level low.
> 
> Dunno if live rape, floggings, beatings and execution footage will make mainstream news reports but that's where you'll find your howls of protest.
> 
> ...






I am aware of similar reports - practically the same reports as those of women in Saudi Arabia but nobody complains about them.

  However, your complaint was that I ignored the women today, not of what happened in 1994 and 1996.  Again, not seeing any reports how can I comment on what is not being reported???


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I Again, not seeing any reports how can I comment on what is not being reported???



I already posted the reasons you're not seeing reports . Did you not read the first two paragraphs above of post #136. 

Copy and paste from #136:

The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear.  I'm sure there are a few Taliban women dedicated to their men, but am betting that percentage is basement level low.​​Dunno if live footage of rape, floggings, beatings and executions will make mainstream news reports, but that's where you'll find your howls of protest.​


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

OK.  I finally got a report on Taliban and women - it just came out one hour ago:









Taliban news conference promises amnesty for those who collaborated with US, asks that people go back to work, asks that everyone rebuild the country, women can go back to work and study (did Saudi Arabia do this as well?), and the press is to remain free.  Dunno if any of these pledges will be honored but that's all I have for now.


The report Annie just posted says  "likely cowering in fear".  That tells me nothing as it is speculative , not factual. It fails to tell us what is going on today.  That is why I cannot comment on it.


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> OK.  I finally got a report on Taliban and women - it just came out one hour ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll believe it when I see this in action, rather than mere words.    And a comment of "likely cowering in fear" is _actually_ speculative not a report; hence the word, "likely." (another Gold star  for you.)

There's no point clogging the thread replying to you.  Should've learned from your interaction with @Murrmurr  above that you're not focused on careful reading of others posts and thoughtful, well-formulated interaction.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Article on the news conference discussed above:


Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women's rights under Islam | Fintech Zoom - World Finance


Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam​ *Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam*


Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women’s rights under Islam

Taliban vow no retribution against soldiers, contractors
Taliban say women’s rights will be respected within framework of Islam
KABUL, Aug 17 (Reuters) – The Afghan Taliban said on Tuesday they wanted peaceful relations with other countries and would respect the rights of women within the framework of Islamic law, as they held their first official news briefing since their shock seizure of Kabul.
The Taliban announcements, short on details but suggesting a softer line than during their rule 20 years ago, came as the United States and Western allies evacuated diplomats and civilians the day after scenes of chaos at Kabul airport as Afghans thronged the airfield.
As they rush to evacuate, foreign powers are assessing how to respond to the changed situation on the ground after Afghan forces melted away in just days, with what many had predicted as the likely fast unravelling of women’s rights.
During their 1996-2001 rule, also guided by Islamic law, or shariah, the Taliban stopped women from working and administered punishments including public stoning. Girls were not allowed to go to school and women had to wear all-enveloping burqas to go out.
“We don’t want any internal or external enemies,” the movement’s main spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said.
Women would be allowed to work and study and “will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam”, he added.
“We will need to see what actually happens and I think we will need to see acts on the ground in terms of promises kept,” U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York in response to the Taliban news conference.
Mujahid said the Taliban would not seek retribution against former soldiers and members of the Western-backed government, adding the movement was granting an amnesty for former Afghan government soldiers as well as contractors and translators who worked for international forces.
“Nobody is going to harm you, nobody is going to knock on your doors,” he said, adding that there was a “huge difference” between the Taliban now and 20 years ago.
He said private media could continue to be free and independent in Afghanistan and that the Taliban were committed to the media within their cultural framework.
He also said families trying to flee the country at the airport should return home and nothing would happen to them.
RESISTANCE
Mujahid’s conciliatory tone contrasted sharply with comments by Afghan First Vice President Amrullah Saleh, who declared himself the “legitimate caretaker president” and vowed that he would not bow to Kabul’s new rulers. 



Despite his outspoken comments it was not immediately clear how much support Saleh enjoys in a country wearied by decades of conflict ....


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## Pepper (Aug 17, 2021)

"Women would be allowed to work and study and “will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam".............................

Who decides what the 'framework' is? @AnnieA.  Oh, right----THEM!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> There's no point clogging the thread replying to you.





Sorry, but I can only in FACTS, not mere speculation.  People there had twenty years to bring about changes.  In all that time they never lifted a finger to help the poor. Never even once.  They have no one to blame for the return of the Taliban but themselves.


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## Pepper (Aug 17, 2021)

The Taliban never returned, because they never left @oldiebutgoody


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> The Taliban never returned, because they never left @oldiebutgoody





Well, you do have a valid point.  The people of Afghanistan never disavowed that government.  The puppet regime that ruled from Kabul was imposed by the West.  Had the Soviets marched into Washington, DC neither you, nor Annie, nor anyone else have happily accepted their presence or governance.  The people harbored the Taliban all these years because they recognized it as their government.  Same thing that happened when families harbored Washington and quartered his troops when the Brits invaded.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 17, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> The majority of Afghan women who aren't trying to flee at the airport are likely cowering in fear.


I believe that is true, particularly of the more educated and those in the bigger cities.  However I just don't see that we can do much about it, maybe try political pressure on the new government when it appears.  Not that they will likely be much interested in our opinions.  Our problems have come from trying to fix the unfixable, time to stop.  Or at least pull back to non-violent approaches.  Which are not often successful.


oldiebutgoody said:


> did Saudi Arabia do this as well?


Case in point, it has been a few years since I was in Saudi, but I do still know some people there.  I believe the Saudis still treat women badly by our standards; however they have only done a few minor things to make it appear they are changing at least superficially.   Hopefully some have helped the Saudi women.  We are supporters of the Saudi government and mostly call them allies.  I believe the few things they have done have been in response to western pressure.  Not that I agree with much of our policy towards the Saudis, but it has sure worked better than in Afghanistan.


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## AnnieA (Aug 17, 2021)

Pepper said:


> "Women would be allowed to work and study and “will be very active in society but within the framework of Islam".............................
> 
> Who decides what the 'framework' is? @AnnieA.  Oh, right----THEM!



Oldiebutgoodie posted that bit of propaganda, but I do agree with you!  Like I told her, I'll believe it when I see it.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Not that I agree with much of our policy towards the Saudis, but it has sure worked better than in Afghanistan.





I believe women were finally allowed to drive an automobile just about a year ago in Saudi Arabia. Things are not much better in other Muslim countries.  Bad as those conditions are, they are infinitely worse in Brahmin  India:

https://tinyurl.com/pzcwapw8


 Whatever "evils" the Taliban have imposed pale in comparison to this.    MILLIONS upon millions butchered in a campaign that surpasses Hitler's genocide and not one word of protest from the West.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> .. I haven't seen any news reports.  How can I quote something that hasn't been reported?


In addition to not bothering to go find information available on the internet, you don't seem to understand that Afghani people don't think the way you think.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> In addition to not bothering to go find information available on the internet, you don't seem to understand that Afghani people don't think the way you think.




Well, I'm still waiting for reports that people are protesting the reemergence of that Taliban.  Aside from collaborators trying to escape rather than face trial for treason or to accept amnesty, have you seen any protests?   

In all honesty, I can't blame the collaborators for trying to escape.  After all, that's what Benedict Arnold did. Treason does have its consequences.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 17, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> you don't seem to understand that Afghani people don't think the way you think


A classic problem many of us suffer from.  In fact if y'all on this forum would just think the way I do there would be much less bickering!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Haha!  GREAT reply.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Well, I'm still waiting for reports that people are protesting the reemergence of that Taliban.  Aside from collaborators trying to escape rather than face trial for treason or to accept amnesty, have you seen any protests?
> 
> In all honesty, I can't blame the collaborators for trying to escape.  After all, that's what Benedict Arnold did. Treason does have its consequences.


Maybe this will help.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Maybe this will help.




Interesting video.  On the one hand he (a citizen of India) says Pakistan created and abetted the Taliban but on the other hand he says the Taliban will invade Pakistan, kill thousands, and annex Balochistan and Khyber.  He does not say why the Taliban would attempt to kill its own allies.  He mentions old grievances but does not offer any hope of reconciliation.  Dunno if what he says is true.  But one thing's for sure.  Those problems are their concern, not ours.  We have already given those people $2 trillion. Pouring more money into their problems won't solve anything.


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## Knight (Aug 17, 2021)

When will the media get around to digging into what will happen to the refugees? 

Maybe unlike when America defeated Japan since we were defeated in Afghanistan America won't have to foot the bill for the cost to rebuild.


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## oldman (Aug 17, 2021)

Don M. said:


> I firmly believe that the U.S. should keep its nose out of the strife that other nations face.  Teddy Roosevelt had it right, IMO....Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick.  If we, or our close allies are attacked, we should respond quickly and with maximum force to show the "attackers" that they made a Bad decision.   In this case, the objective should have been to "eliminate" Bin Laden, then let Afghanistan figure out how to handle the Taliban on their own....IMO.  If their people think that such "extremism" is acceptable, there is little we can do to change their minds.


Sometimes decisions have to be made as to where you


Sunny said:


> I have never understood why we are there at all, let alone 20 years after 9/11, which from my (very limited) knowledge the Taliban was not responsible for anyway.  Why have we hung on there so long, and what did we expect to accomplish?


The U.S. should have left as soon as they learned Bin Laden had fled to Pakistan.


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## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I believe women were finally allowed to drive an automobile just about a year ago in Saudi Arabia. Things are not much better in other Muslim countries.  Bad as those conditions are, they are infinitely worse in Brahmin  India:
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/pzcwapw8
> 
> ...


*Female infanticide
 *


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## Murrmurr (Aug 17, 2021)

oldman said:


> The U.S. should have left as soon as they learned Bin Laden had fled to Pakistan.


It was a geopolitical decision that had the potential to benefit both the US and Afghanistan. 

Bin Laden could move back and forth across the border just about any time he liked.


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## mellowyellow (Aug 17, 2021)

Germany has halted development aid to Afghanistan since the Taliban takeover. Such aid is a crucial source of funding for the country — and the Taliban's efforts to project a milder version of themselves may be aimed at ensuring that money continues to flow. Berlin was among the biggest donors to the country.


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## jerry old (Aug 17, 2021)

*The situation is grim, much of the grim is ours.*


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## jerry old (Aug 17, 2021)

My opinion, no my opinion has no value; the only people that have an opinion that we should heed are those that served there,
those that bled there, and those that died there.


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## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> the Taliban's efforts to project a milder version of themselves may be aimed at ensuring that money continues to flow.


Agree


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## Pink Biz (Aug 17, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Germany has halted development aid to Afghanistan since the Taliban takeover. Such aid is a crucial source of funding for the country — and the Taliban's efforts to project a milder version of themselves may be aimed at ensuring that money continues to flow. Berlin was among the biggest donors to the country.


*The U.S. Treasury Department froze Afghan government reserves held in U.S. bank accounts Sunday, after the Taliban seized the capital city of Kabul this weekend.

The move blocks the Taliban from accessing the billions of dollars that were being stored in U.S. institutions.*

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...istan-money-taliban-us-reserves-b1903511.html


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## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

Evacuees crowd the interior of a U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft, carrying some 640 Afghans to Qatar from Kabul on Aug. 15, 2021.
                   Defense One/Reuters


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## Alligatorob (Aug 17, 2021)

jerry old said:


> My opinion, no my opinion has no value; the only people that have an opinion that we should heed are those that served there,
> those that bled there, and those that died there.


I understand your feelings on this, and I agree we need to listen to our vets.  Their experiences and insights are important.  However our system is built on separation of the military and the civilian government and decision making.  I think we need to keep it that way.  So opine away, I think it does matter.

Nothing meant to detract from the contributions of our military people, particularly the ones who "_bled..., and... died_".


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## mellowyellow (Aug 17, 2021)

Taliban fighters patrolling in an American taxpayer paid Humvee


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## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

The former president of Afghanistan has fled and no one knows where he is.

........,*There were also reports that Mr. Ghani had fled with piles of cash*

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/world/asia/afghanistan-president-ashraf-ghani.html

I did see two or three headlines on Google News this morning about him stuffing four cars with cash and leaving by helicopter but those reports are no longer on the Google News page.


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## Alligatorob (Aug 17, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> Mr. Ghani had fled with piles of cash


No surprise there!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

Pink Biz said:


> *The U.S. Treasury Department froze Afghan government reserves held in U.S. bank accounts Sunday, after the Taliban seized the capital city of Kabul this weekend.
> 
> The move blocks the Taliban from accessing the billions of dollars that were being stored in U.S. institutions.*
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...istan-money-taliban-us-reserves-b1903511.html




interestingly, former Afghan President Ashraf Ghani reportedly fled the country with car loads of money 

Afghan President Ghani flees Kabul in helicopter stuffed with cash: reports - The Hindu


So who gets to keep the money - Washington DC???


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## mellowyellow (Aug 17, 2021)

Taliban’s justice system
Bibi Aisha Mohammadzai had her ears and nosed chopped off by the Taliban
At 12, she was forced into an abusive marriage with a Taliban fighter. She tried to flee but was captured. A Taliban judge punished her by sending her to jail for months and then releasing her back to her husband. The husband and his relatives tied her up and cut off her nose and ears, leaving her to die. She was flown to the US and after recovering from psychological after effects of her trauma, she underwent a 12-stage reconstructive procedure and was adopted by an Afghan-American family.


----------



## mellowyellow (Aug 17, 2021)

Taliban fighters patrolling in an American taxpayer paid Humvee


----------



## RadishRose (Aug 17, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 179141
> Taliban’s justice system
> Bibi Aisha Mohammadzai had her ears and nosed chopped off by the Taliban
> At 12, she was forced into an abusive marriage with a Taliban fighter. She tried to flee but was captured. A Taliban judge punished her by sending her to jail for months and then releasing her back to her husband. The husband and his relatives tied her up and cut off her nose and ears, leaving her to die. She was flown to the US and after recovering from psychological after effects of her trauma, she underwent a 12-stage reconstructive procedure and was adopted by an Afghan-American family.
> ...


Oh my Lord that poor, poor girl. She looks beautiful now though. Thank goodness for the family that took her in.


----------



## jerry old (Aug 17, 2021)

You see folks like the above in a VA Hospital, not a civilian.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 17, 2021)

jerry old said:


> You see folks like the above in a VA Hospital, not a civilian.




Generally true.  But do recall that the American troops left many civilians at Abu Ghraib in worse shape.  The disclosure of those atrocities by Bush's "crusaders"  became an international sensation of the worse order. I pondered  about posting a few pics but thought it might be a better idea not to do so.  Also recall the Nisour Square Massacre which turned thousands of Iraqis against the continued occupation by Bush's forces.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 17, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Twelve cities in one week the Taliban has overrun and would it not be the ultimate insult to wait until 9-11 to take Kabul twenty years later?


What does Kabul and the Taliban have to do with 9-11?


----------



## Verisure (Aug 17, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> ...... We will never know the extent of the massacre coming to a those that sided with the U.S. troops not to mention the women ......


They are called "traitors". What do you think the Afghan government should do with them .... give them a big house with a two-car garage as a booby prize? Is that what was done with William Joyce and Eddie Slovik?


----------



## Warrigal (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Article on the news conference discussed above:
> 
> 
> Taliban, striking dovish tone, promise peace and women's rights under Islam | Fintech Zoom - World Finance
> ...


"Within the framework of Islam" - here's the rub. The Talibans' idea of what Islam allows is extremely backward. Take education, for example. "Girls will be allowed an education" will probably mean that they can go to an Islamic girls school until 12 years of age after which they will be married off to a Taliban member. No mention of them having the right to seek the education of their own choice. 

"No retribution against soldiers, contractors" doesn't mean that they will be forgiven. More likely they will be closely watched and punished for things that they do or say from now on. They may even have to prove their loyalty to their idea of Islam. The slightest slip and they, and possibly their family, will be subject to the full severity of punishments sanctioned by medieval Islam.

If I was Afghani I would not trust that the Taliban is an evolved organisation.


----------



## fmdog44 (Aug 18, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> View attachment 179137
> Taliban fighters patrolling in an American taxpayer paid Humvee


They also get free Blackhawk attack helicopters and high tech surveillance gear. I guess our troop commanders did not want to blow them up for fear of being criticized for destruction of government property.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> They are called "traitors". What do you think the Afghan government should do with them .... give them a big house with a two-car garage as a booby prize? Is that what was done with William Joyce and Eddie Slovik?




Traitors is what they are.  What follows is a very interesting article re women who collaborated with Nazis:

Sleeping with the enemy: Collaborator Girls (warhistoryonline.com)


At first they prospered and had a great time.  Then there was hell to pay.  That is the inevitable consequences of treason.



Famous movie ~  *Five Branded Women*:










5 Branded Women (1960) - IMDb




War is hell. So is treason.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Traitors is what they are.  What follows is a very interesting article re women who collaborated with Nazis:
> 
> Sleeping with the enemy: Collaborator Girls (warhistoryonline.com)
> 
> ...


That's the truth of the matter. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


----------



## Don M. (Aug 18, 2021)

I was amazed at the video on the news, showing hundreds of people crammed into the cargo hold of that big US cargo plane.  I don't know where they were taken, but if the flight lasted more than a couple of hours, that aircraft was probably a cesspool of feces and urine.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Don M. said:


> I was amazed at the video on the news, showing hundreds of people crammed into the cargo hold of that big US cargo plane.  I don't know where they were taken, but if the flight lasted more than a couple of hours, that aircraft was probably a cesspool of feces and urine.


Boxcars to Auschwitz.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> Germany has halted development aid to Afghanistan since the Taliban takeover. Such aid is a crucial source of funding for the country — and the Taliban's efforts to project a milder version of themselves may be aimed at ensuring that money continues to flow. Berlin was among the biggest donors to the country.


I'm waiting to see who fills the gap.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

This is one of the reasons why the people of Afghanistan hated the puppet government imposed by the West invaders:


Afghan embassy urges Interpol to arrest Ghani for ‘stealing public wealth’​Former president ‘escaped with bags full of $169 million when Kabul was falling’

Interpol urged to arrest Ghani for ‘stealing public wealth’ (tribune.com.pk)


The Afghanistan embassy in Tajikistan has demanded Interpol police to arrest former president Ashraf Ghani and his aides who fled the country after the collapse of their government as the Taliban seized control of Kabul.

The Afghanistan embassy in Tajikistan has asked Interpol police to detain Ashraf Ghani, Hamdallah Mohib and Fazal Mahmood Fazli on charges of stealing public wealth so that funds could be returned to Afghanistan, Afghanistan’s _Tolonews_ reported while quoting sources.

Russia's embassy in Kabul said on Monday that Ghani had fled the country with four cars and a helicopter full of cash and had to leave some money behind as it would not all fit in, the _RIA _news agency reported.

"Four cars were full of money, they tried to stuff another part of the money into a helicopter, but not all of it fit. And some of the money was left lying on the tarmac," Nikita Ishchenko, a spokesperson for the Russian embassy in Kabul, was quoted as saying by _RIA_.

******Also read: Defiant Amrullah Saleh declares himself caretaker president of Afghanistan*

Meanwhile, _BBC_ journalist Kawoon Khamoosh has quoted the Afghanistan ambassador in Tajikistan as saying that “Ashraf Ghani escaped with bags full of 169 million US dollars when Kabul was falling”.


Ghani, whose current whereabouts are unknown, said he left Afghanistan on Sunday as the Taliban entered Kabul virtually unopposed. He said he wanted to avoid bloodshed.

Ghani's destination was uncertain: a senior Interior Ministry official said he had left for Tajikistan, while a Foreign Ministry official said his location was unknown and the Taliban said it was checking his whereabouts.

Some local social media users branded him a "coward" for leaving them in chaos.







***** interesting how the media keep referring to Talibani as "insurgents" and its leadership as "defiant"  




Suffice it to say that the puppet regime was corrupt, it gave away wealth to the wealthy, it disregarded the poor, and it kissed up to the invading Western imperialists.  Small wonder why the people of Afghanistan to refused to fight against them.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I'm waiting to see who fills the gap.


Is it a given that someone will and if so who do you think is the most likely to do it?


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> This is one of the reasons why the people of Afghanistan hated the puppet government imposed by the West invaders:


There must be many reasons ...



oldiebutgoody said:


> Suffice it to say that the puppet regime was corrupt   ....


It's the South Vietnamese corrupt Catholic regime (Bao Dai & Ngo Dinh Diem) all over again. Yet some will feign surprise.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Yet some will feign surprise.




All over the internet and news media people can readily access information which proves the puppet regime was corrupt and stole billions. Monies that were intended to help the poor went into the pockets of the rich.  Yet, certain pro war delusionals who feel the invading West can do no wrong will still applaud this and further terrorist invasions.  People like me have been telling these delusionals the truth going all the way back to the 1960s but they still refuse to learn.  But watch - there will be another war soon.  Real soon.  And they will repeat the same phony excuses and "justifications" for more failed war.  They will claim that it is all in the name of American patriotism.  I say, PHOOEY.  It is done in the name of American treason.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> All over the internet and news media people can readily access information which proves the puppet regime was corrupt and stole billions. Monies that were intended to help the poor went into the pockets of the rich.  Yet, certain pro war delusionals who feel the invading West can do no wrong will still applaud this and further terrorist invasions. * People like me* have been telling these delusionals the truth going all the way back to the 1960s but they still refuse to learn.  .....


.. and me ...


oldiebutgoody said:


> But watch - there will be another war soon.  Real soon.  And *they will repeat the same phony excuses and "justifications" for more failed war*.  They will claim that it is all in the name of American patriotism.  I say, PHOOEY.  It is done in the name of American treason.


Will they believe us then?


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> .. and me ...
> 
> Will they believe us then?





I'm sure they won't.  On another website I get words such as "Communist", "America hater", and "drug addict" for making the same posts you see me post here.  The hate, willful ignorance,  and delusionalism of these people never ends.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I'm sure they won't.  On another website I get words such as "Communist", "America hater", and "drug addict" for making the same posts you see me post here.  The hate, willful ignorance,  and delusionalism of these people never ends.


Ohhh, yes. I have a few of them on my "ignore" list. It's a  lack of proper education, an inferior educational system. That's is to say that nothing is being taught about Democracy but a whole lot of propaganda that says black is white ... right is wrong .... you're either with us against us .... love it or leave it ..... and suicide bombers are cowards. It's just like the Bible: Faith, it's all about faith - no logic whatsoever but "you best believe it" anyway. It is so sickening that the people who really want the US to hold its head up high and join "the good guys" are being slandered. What is the solution, you tell me, please.


----------



## Alligatorob (Aug 18, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Traitors is what they are


It can be hard to know what a "traitor" is or should be in a place like Afghanistan.  Easier in the case of the women in nazi occupied countries during WWII.

Afghanistan is a very complex place, lots of differences in ethnicities and language.    Who should these people be loyal to?  I don't know, and I doubt if any of us here knows.  The crux of the problem I think.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It can be hard to know what a "traitor" is or should be in a place like Afghanistan.  Easier in the case of the women in nazi occupied countries during WWII.
> 
> Afghanistan is a very complex place, lots of differences in ethnicities and language.    Who should these people be loyal to?  I don't know, and I doubt if any of us here knows.  The crux of the problem I think.





In Europe during the Nazi era there was a foreign occupier. Easy to point to that enemy, as you say.  In  Afghanistan, they had a puppet foreign   imposed  regime (just like Quisling was by Hitler).  Thus, every faction in  that country had a common enemy.  Same as happened in the Balkans during WW II.  This was  (and remained thereafter) a highly factionalized society.  But they knew their common enemy and opposed him with their blood.  In the Balkans each ethnic group had what were called "partisans".  In Afghanistan they had tribal  "war lords".  Both essentially the same thing.  Different factions, different loyalties.  But one common enemy: a  corrupt foreign imposed tyrant. Perhaps you and other Westerners may not  see it this way but people of that country viewed Bush just like we viewed Hitler (a foreign evil doer who invaded and tried to impose his wicked will).  And they viewed the puppet regime precisely as the Norwegians viewed Quisling.     Whether anyone wants to believe it or not, justice was on their side. This is why they fought (not against the Taliban, but against their real enemy the USA and foreign tyranny) and won.


----------



## RadishRose (Aug 18, 2021)

China and Russia are ready to snuggle up with Afghanistan since allegedly Afghanistan has valuable metals and minerals in its soil.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 18, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> China and Russia are ready to snuggle up with Afghanistan since allegedly Afghanistan has valuable metals and minerals in its soil.




I have read reports that both countries gave a considerable amount of capital to Afghanistan during the 20 year foreign occupation. Both, no doubt, are eager to get that money back and will likely use diplomatic measures to secure profitable exploratory and mining contracts in order to recapture those monies.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It can be hard to know what a "traitor" is or should be in a place like Afghanistan.  Easier in the case of the women in nazi occupied countries during WWII.


The Taliban will have little trouble finding out who the "traitors" are; anyone who work with or for the US military, right down to the interpreters, the guys who brought them tea, and the kids who brushed the mud off their boots.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Is it a given that someone will and if so who do you think is the most likely to do it?


China wants to. They need that straight between them and Afghanistan, the Wakhan Corridor. They have to be cautious, for obvious reasons, but so far looks like talks are still on the friendly side.

I'm waiting for more information.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

RadishRose said:


> China and Russia are ready to snuggle up with Afghanistan since allegedly Afghanistan has valuable metals and minerals in its soil.


There's also a piece of land China wants to control, the Wakhan Corridor, which would give China a straight shot to Turkmenistan and Iran, and a big boost to their Belt & Road initiative. Plus, trillions in rare earth metals. They have lots of $$$ dangling in front of the Taliban.

Russia was still in wait-and-see mode last I heard. But that was yesterday.


----------



## Alligatorob (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The Taliban will have little trouble finding out who the "traitors" are; anyone who work with or for the US military, right down to the interpreters, the guys who brought them tea, and the kids who brushed the mud off their boots.


Yeah, if you define "traitor" as someone who aided the looser.  Do you see Robert E Lee and the Confederates as traitors?  I know some do, but I suspect most don't.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Yeah, if you define "traitor" as someone who aided the looser.  Do you see Robert E Lee and the Confederates as traitors?  I know some do, but I suspect most don't.


The Taliban will almost definitely define ""traitor" as someone who aided the West. And, most definitely, they would not consider the Confederates as traitors...but maybe as "rebels", like most of the US considered them.


----------



## Alligatorob (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> most definitely, they would not consider the Confederates as traitors...


LOL, I doubt the Taliban know who the Confederates were.

I know its all semantics, but how do armed violent rebels differ from traitors?  As the descendant of several Confederate soldiers I would prefer to think of them as loyal rebels, but can see how others might not.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> It can be hard to know what a "traitor" is or should be in a place like Afghanistan.  Easier in the case of the women in nazi occupied countries during WWII.
> 
> *Afghanistan is a very complex place,* lots of differences in ethnicities and language.    Who should these people be loyal to?  I don't know, and I doubt if any of us here knows.  The crux of the problem I think.


I disagree. It has nothing to do with your (or my) morals. French women who fraternized with German soldiers. What's that? Which government? Vichy? Afghanis who fraternized with Americans. What's that? Those who have the power/government decide what a traitor is. It isn't "complex" at all. Germans occupied France and Americans are occupying Afghanistan. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The Taliban will have little trouble finding out who the "traitors" are; anyone who work with or for the US military, right down to the interpreters, the guys who brought them tea, and the kids who brushed the mud off their boots.


Quite simply ..... yes.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> LOL, I doubt the Taliban know who the Confederates were.
> 
> I know its all semantics, but how do armed violent rebels differ from traitors?  As the descendant of several Confederate soldiers I would prefer to think of them as loyal rebels, but can see how others might not.


In the case of the civil war, a traitor would be, for example, a confederate soldier who gave military secrets to a union officer.

The confederacy was an army that fought for the south when it wanted to succeed from the union (USA). It wasn't illegal. States had the right to succeed from the union, but Lincoln refused to allow it.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> China wants to. They need that straight between them and Afghanistan, the Wakhan Corridor. They have to be cautious, for obvious reasons, but so far looks like talks are still on the friendly side.
> 
> I'm waiting for more information.


Sounds logical to me.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> Yeah, if you define "traitor" as someone who aided the looser. .....


No. Someone who aided the occupation forces. Losing has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Sounds logical to me.


Things are evolving really fast, needless to say.


----------



## fmdog44 (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> They are called "traitors". What do you think the Afghan government should do with them .... give them a big house with a two-car garage as a booby prize? Is that what was done with William Joyce and Eddie Slovik?


Sober up cowboy.


----------



## mellowyellow (Aug 18, 2021)

_………..Despite the group’s promise to halt the export of narcotics from Afghanistan “to zero” at its first press conference in Kabul on Wednesday, the country accounted for 84% of global opium production in the year ending 2020, according to the UN’s World Drug Report. Most of that production took place in Taliban-controlled areas and benefited the group via a 10% production tax.

Three of the past four years have seen some of Afghanistan’s highest levels of opium production, according to the UN, with poppy cultivation soaring 37% alone last year.

Another main component of the Taliban’s funding has been its taxation of mining exports, which brings in almost a third of its income in addition to the tax it levies on residents in areas it controls.

On top of that, analysis reveals, the Taliban have continued to be a major beneficiary of charitable donations from wealthy individuals in the Gulf to the tune of upwards of $240m. It has also received support from Iran.

Complicating the issue for the Taliban is the threat to aid flows that have long sustained Afghanistan’s government – they account for 42.9% of GDP. Germany, one of the country’s top donors, has said it is halting development aid, and others have threatened to do the same. Berlin had been due to provide aid of €430m (£366m) this year.

Source: The Guardian_


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> They are called "traitors". What do you think the Afghan government should do with them .... give them a big house with a two-car garage as a booby prize? Is that what was done with William Joyce and Eddie Slovik?





fmdog44 said:


> Sober up cowboy.


Try addressing my on-topic comment rather than instigating personal confrontation.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

I heard something very interesting on World is One News this evening - they said Afghanistan's former vice president, Amrullah Saleh, is in Panjshir Valley, a region northeast of Kabul that the Taliban has never conquered. From there, Saleh says he is forming an Anti-Taliban Alliance and *will defeat* the Taliban. The report said that before his role as vice president, Saleh was an anti-Taliban guerilla fighter, a "top spy", a "key asset" for the CIA, and became chief of Afghanistan's National Intelligence & Security (the NDS) in 2004. 

Saleh stayed behind when Afghanistan's president and other gov't officials fled, and said he has met with the current leader of the Anti-Taliban Northern Alliance. He said he is working closely with the son of the Northern Alliance's former leader and a "vast network of informants" through which he has learned that the Pakistan Air Force is and has been providing support to the Taliban in "certain areas". 

He's calling the new anti-Taliban alliance The Panjshir Resistance. (pretty cool name)

The report added that Saleh's sister was tortured and killed by the Taliban in 1996. (motivation!)


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I heard something very interesting on World is One News this evening - they said Afghanistan's former vice president, Amrullah Saleh, is in Panjshir Valley, a region northeast of Kabul that the Taliban has never conquered. From there, Saleh says he is forming an Anti-Taliban Alliance and *will defeat* the Taliban. The report said that before his role as vice president, Saleh was an anti-Taliban guerilla fighter, a "top spy", a "key asset" for the CIA, and became chief of Afghanistan's National Intelligence & Security (the NDS) in 2004.
> 
> Saleh stayed behind when Afghanistan's president and other gov't officials fled, and said he has met with the current leader of the Anti-Taliban Northern Alliance. He said he is working closely with the son of the Northern Alliance's former leader and a "vast network of informants" through which he has learned that the Pakistan Air Force is and has been providing support to the Taliban in "certain areas".
> 
> ...


_An anti-Taliban *guerilla fighter*, a* top spy*, a key* asset for the CIA*._  Another *"reliable source"* no doubt. Ho-hum.

Ps.  Another Washington-Afghani ass-kissing arrangement *the Lion of Panjshir *(Ahmad Shah Massoud) was also a cool name.


----------



## Murrmurr (Aug 18, 2021)

Verisure said:


> _An anti-Taliban *guerilla fighter*, a* top spy*, a key* asset for the CIA*._  Another *"reliable source"* no doubt. Ho-hum.
> 
> Ps.  Another Washington-Afghani ass-kissing arrangement *the Lion of Panjshir *(Ahmad Shah Massoud) was also a cool name.


All the same (literally), I'm gonna keep an eye on this one.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 18, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> All the same (literally), I'm gonna keep an eye on this one.


Keep us posted.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

funny cartoon which illustrates the situation in Afghanistan:


----------



## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> funny cartoon which illustrates the situation in Afghanistan:


I don't think either of them "Sacrificed to build a free and democratic Afghanistan" but the punchline is true and clear.


----------



## Don M. (Aug 19, 2021)

Any nation and population which is founded on strong religious "ideology" will Always fall back on those religious principals in a time of crisis.  Islam and Christianity have been at odds with each other for centuries, and for any of our political or military leaders to think that they can change that, is wishful thinking.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Boxcars to Auschwitz.



What the heck does that mean?  You sound a little unhinged.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> What the heck does that mean?  You sound a little unhinged.


If you don't see the similarities then just carry on towards your destination.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Aug 19, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> What the heck does that mean?  You sound a little unhinged.





RadishRose said:


> China and Russia are ready to snuggle up with Afghanistan since allegedly Afghanistan has valuable metals and minerals in its soil.





Verisure said:


> I disagree. It has nothing to do with your (or my) morals. French women who fraternized with German soldiers. What's that? Which government? Vichy? Afghanis who fraternized with Americans. What's that? Those who have the power/government decide what a traitor is. It isn't "complex" at all. Germans occupied France and Americans are occupying Afghanistan. It's as simple as that.





Verisure said:


> If you don't see the similarities then just carry on towards your destination.



I see you're from Malmo.  Are you by any chance a recent arrival from one of the garden spots of the Middle East?  Or just a homegrown Taliban fan?


----------



## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I see you're from Malmo.  Are you by any chance a recent arrival from one of the garden spots of the Middle East?  Or just a homegrown Taliban fan?


I am a Taliban emissary here on a recruiting mission. But even a terrorist like myself can see that you are lacking in secular education. Buck up, sonny.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I don't think either of them "Sacrificed to build a free and democratic Afghanistan" but the punchline is true and clear.





Perhaps the phrase  "were sacrificed" is more apropos.  After all, now there can be no question that the Taliban's presence in Kabul  proves it represents the majority of the people of Afghanistan.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

Taliban captures female traitor:


The Taliban captured a female Afghan governor who recruited militants to fight the Taliban, report says​
The Taliban captured a female Afghan governor who recruited militants to fight the Taliban, report says (msn.com)



The Taliban detained Salima Mazari, one of the few female Afghan governors, The Times of India reported.
The report didn't indicate where Mazari was or when Taliban forces captured her.
As the governor of the Charkint district, she recruited and trained militants to fight the Taliban.
Salima Mazari, one of the few female governors in Afghanistan, has been detained by the Taliban, The Times of India reported on Wednesday, citing local reports.

Nadia Momand, a TV journalist in Afghanistan, tweeted on Wednesday that the Taliban had reportedly captured Mazari. Momand called for her release. The Times of India report didn't indicate where Mazari was or when the Taliban captured her.

Mazari, 40, is the governor of Charkint district in northern Afghanistan, which has a population of more than 30,000 people. She has been recruiting and training militants to fight against Taliban insurgents since 2019, The Guardian reported last week.

Mazari was born in Iran in 1980. Her family had fled the Soviet war in Afghanistan, and Mazari returned to the country decades later, The Guardian said. She was appointed governor in 2018, making her one of the few women in male-dominated Afghan politics, NPR reported.

She has been a force in the fight against the Taliban. "Sometimes I'm in the office in Charkint, and other times I have to pick up a gun and join the battle," she told The Guardian.

By the first week of August, half of Mazari's district was under Taliban rule, and she had recruited 600 locals to shore up the district's defense, Agence France-Presse reported. Many of them were farmers who had sold their livestock to buy weapons, Mazari told the AFP.

Her district was one of the last standing before the country fell to the Taliban over the weekend.






After WW II Christian Europeans took female traitors to the scaffold. Let's see if the Muslim Taliban will do the same.  If it does then no one should raise any objection because the Muslim standard of retribution would be no different than that of Christians.


----------



## Devi (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> After WW II Christian Europeans took female traitors to the scaffold. Let's see if the Muslim Taliban will do the same.  If it does then no one should raise any objection because the Muslim standard of retribution would be no different than that of Christians.


Although there _are_ people who are neither Christian nor Muslim. Regardless, there's nothing to say that anyone (Muslim, Christian or anything else) _must not_ object because of something that happened earlier.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

Devi said:


> Although there _are_ people who are neither Christian nor Muslim. Regardless, there's nothing to say that anyone (Muslim, Christian or anything else) _must not_ object because of something that happened earlier.





Point taken,  after all, many of those European partisans who executed collaborators were Jewish, Muslim, and possibly other religion or none at all.  Still, my point was that execution of traitors is  universal.  Thus, if we Westerners had no objection to Christians doing it then we have no complaint when others follow our example.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I am a Taliban emissary here on a recruiting mission. But even a terrorist like myself can see that you are lacking in secular education. Buck up, sonny.



Insults, how nice.  You might want to try your luck on a Reddit board.


----------



## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Perhaps the phrase  "were sacrificed" is more apropos.


Undeniably apropos. 


oldiebutgoody said:


> After all, now there can be no question that the Taliban's presence in Kabul  proves it represents the majority of the people of Afghanistan.


Did we understand that prior to this week or has it hit us like a ton of bricks? There hasn't been much honest reporting that I've seen up until now. I definitely knew the west was wrong for occupying Afghanistan but I don't think I understood the Afghan position very well. Till now. The old Soviet guard must be laughing in their boots! The US created/instigated/funded/armed the various Afghani factions to fight against the USSR occupation and now America's Frankenstein has taken a chunk out of Washington as if to say, *"Neither you idiot Soviets nor you boisterous Americans understand that ours is a cultural stand, not a political or capitalist fascination".  *


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Insults, how nice.  You might want to try your luck on a Reddit board.


Are you still here? I thought we were finished.


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## JimBob1952 (Aug 19, 2021)

No, I'm here for the duration.


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Taliban captures female traitor:
> 
> 
> The Taliban captured a female Afghan governor who recruited militants to fight the Taliban, report says​
> ...


From the above report, it does appear that she deserves whatever the Taliban see fit to give her and your final sentence rings loud and true.


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## JimBob1952 (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Are you still here? I thought we were finished.



Wow, another savage put-down.  I'm reeling.


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> No, I'm here for the duration.


The duration of what - the dialogue that you went out of your way to initiate? Oh, I see, you are upset that I dismissed you and you want the last word as a sort of "saving face".  Fine. I give you permission.


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## Devi (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Still, my point was that execution of traitors is universal.


Very true!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> Undeniably apropos.
> 
> Did we understand that prior to this week or has it hit us like a ton of bricks? There hasn't been much honest reporting that I've seen up until now. I definitely knew the west was wrong for occupying Afghanistan but I don't think I understood the Afghan position very well. Till now. The old Soviet guard must be laughing in their boots! The US created/instigated/funded/armed the various Afghani factions to fight against the USSR occupation and now America's Frankenstein has taken a chunk out of Washington as if to say, *"Neither you idiot Soviets nor you boisterous Americans understand that ours is a cultural stand, not a political or capitalist fascination".  *





I guess that's the problem that so many Americans fail to understand - that like the Nazis before them, _nobody has a right to invade a land, steal its resources, impose a puppet government, hire collaborators, kill anyone who dares to dissent from such imperialism, and continually occupy a subjugated country and people without there being consequences for such evil actions. _



The people and Taliban government did not attack nor impose any threat to the USA in 2001.  There was and remain no valid reason for attacking those people and its government.  There was and remain no valid reason for occupying that land.  Doing so involves consequences.  If the Taliban now chooses to execute the traitors who collaborated with the invaders that is their business, their choice, their solution, their problem.  NOT ours. 

We chose to go after Benedict Arnold but he escaped though his wife was treated with great charity.  We executed about 500 soldiers during the Civil War for desertion or treason, we did the same to  Eddie Slovik,  and we executed the Rosenbergs.  Christian partisans attacked many collaborators and executed several.   Now if Muslim Talibani do the same then we have no argument against those actions because we have a long history of doing the same.


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2021)

Gaer said:


> Sad!  This was predictable and preventable.  The way this was handled without conditions is a U.S. embarrassment.
> Pray for the women and the interpreters.  Seriously!  Use your strong thought to help them.
> This is devastating!


I woke in the middle of the night and heard a BBC broadcast that featured two young Afghani translators expressing their fears. The young woman is university educated having been born after the Taliban were displaced 20 years ago. The man was employed by the Americans. There are lists of names that are being used by Talibans to search houses looking for documents such as records of their service and visas. The man had already left his house when they came knocking and searched his parents home. They found his hidden documents so now he is between a rock and a hard place. He cannot leave for America (or Australia) without his documents and if he stays the Taliban will kill him, or if he is in hiding, they will hurt his family if they do not give him up.

As I listened I was reminded of the Terror that gripped France after the French revolution. People were all too ready to gain favour in the republic by denouncing first the aristocrats then anyone they had a grudge against. The guillotine was very busy. 

Despite the leaders pledge not to take revenge, what is happening on the ground says that this is just camouflage for the actions that will surely follow when the last of the foreigners have left. People will start to disappear and heads will literally roll.

I am deeply upset by what is about to happen. I cannot sleep.


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I guess that's the problem that so many Americans fail to understand - that like the Nazis before them, _nobody has a right to invade a land, steal its resources, impose a puppet government, hire collaborators, kill anyone who dares to dissent from such imperialism, and continually occupy a subjugated country and people without there being consequences for such evil actions. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You hit every nail on the head. The US is following Orwell's script in "1984" right down to the most minute detail. I read it as a young man and it was frightening. Who thought it would become reality? I didn't.


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## Gaer (Aug 19, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I woke in the middle of the night and heard a BBC broadcast that featured two young Afghani translators expressing their fears. The young woman is university educated having been born after the Taliban were displaced 20 years ago. The man was employed by the Americans. There are lists of names that are being used by Talibans to search houses looking for documents such as records of their service and visas. The man had already left his house when they came knocking and searched his parents home. They found his hidden documents so now he is between a rock and a hard place. He cannot leave for America (or Australia) without his documents and if he stays the Taliban will kill him, or if he is in hiding, they will hurt his family if they do not give him up.
> 
> As I listened I was reminded of the Terror that gripped France after the French revolution. People were all too ready to gain favour in the republic by denouncing first the aristocrats then anyone they had a grudge against. The guillotine was very busy.
> 
> ...


What you wrote breaks my heart!  We stand watching this unfold and know what you said about the beheadings will come about.  We stand there gasping with tears in our eyes, not for what has happened but for what is yet to be!
The awaited press conference addresses only  masked mandates?
Really?
What?


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

Gaer said:


> What you wrote breaks my heart!  We stand watching this unfold and know what you said about the beheadings will come about.  We stand there gasping with tears in our eyes, not for what has happened but for what is yet to be!
> The awaited press conference addresses only  masked mandates?
> Really?
> What?


This is the consequence of American war-mongering. The next war the US wants to start you should scream at the top of your lungs telling them to *"stop!"*


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## Warrigal (Aug 19, 2021)

Verisure said:


> This is the consequence of American war-mongering. The next war the US wants to start you should scream at the top of your lungs telling them to *"stop!"*


I wrote to our PM, John Howard, urging him not to follow the US into Gulf War Mark II. I did get a reply talking about weapons of mass destruction. My letter was about what would happen to innocent men women and children as the bombs fell. He did not address my concern at all. There were no WMDs.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 19, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I wrote to our PM, John Howard, urging him not to follow the US into Gulf War Mark II. I did get a reply talking about weapons of mass destruction. My letter was about what would happen to innocent men women and children as the bombs fell. He did not address my concern at all. There were no WMDs.





Dunno about the rest of the world but the British press published  *Downing Street Memo** which clearly and unequivocally proved the pretexts for war upon Iraq were a sham. Its disclosure brought down Tony Blair's government as did it with Aznar in Spain.  Both considered traitors by many people in their country for supporting Bush in his imperialist war. In my many online posts during that time I promised people that those WMD would never be found because it was all FAKE NEWS. 

As I wrote before and will say again --- there was only ONE reason for the imperialist wars upon Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan: *war profits*.  The same corporations who own the news media also own the profiting arms manufacturers. This is why they give you such a sob story about the "loss" of Afghanistan.  The reemergence of the Taliban is not a "loss", it is a demonstration of democracy as the majority of the people impose their will on their land.  That is their choice whether any pro war pundit  in this country wants to believe it or not.








* https://tinyurl.com/8rrmdusm


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## Don M. (Aug 19, 2021)

Watching the network news, this evening, I noticed another Big change.  The Taliban have been waving their Russian AK-47's in past days.  Today, most of them were carrying America AR-15's....confiscated from the Afghan military as those "soldiers" laid down their weapons.  That, plus probably millions of rounds of ammo, and many American military vehicles, should put them in a good position to completely eliminate any opposition.  
Now, they can concentrate a big effort on once again becoming the world's largest Poppy agriculture area, and reap billions of dollars in the sale of Opium and Heroin....they may even surpass the Mexican drug cartels.


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## Verisure (Aug 19, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> ....... The reemergence of the Taliban is ...... a demonstration of democracy as the majority of the people impose their will on their land. .....


This is extremely important to understand. Know also that war-mongering architects are well aware of it and intentionally side-step such facts when concocting media reports. We are witnesses to the creation of global Fascism which is no longer *"over there"* but right here at home. Much of the west  (yes, even today's government of Sweden) are willing participants in its construction. Take a look at the mentality of Bush Junior, Joe Bidden, Hillary Clinton, and Stefan Löfven. That must surely give us a hint that something awful is underway. What can it mean? What can it mean.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 20, 2021)

just a note on war profits:











precisely what I have said all along - the invasion was not intended to create democratic change but to insure high profits for the warmongers


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> just a note on war profits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


... and that's all there is to it.


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## Pink Biz (Aug 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> just a note on war profits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## helenbacque (Aug 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> just a note on war profits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly.  War is good business.  

But I thought the Afghan problem was solved with the 2020 peace agreement negotiated by the last administration.  Wasn't this withdrawal part of that?


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## Serenity4321 (Aug 20, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Twelve cities in one week the Taliban has overrun and would it not be the ultimate insult to wait until 9-11 to take Kabul twenty years later?


Good question!  I had never even thought of this but what a victory celebration  for them if they did


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

helenbacque said:


> War is good business.


Apparently, yes.


helenbacque said:


> But I thought the Afghan problem was solved with the 2020 peace agreement negotiated by the last administration.  Wasn't this withdrawal part of that?


What would be the purpose of negotiating peace? To quote Helen (one of our fellow forum members) *"War is good business".*


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Good question!  I had never even thought of this but what a victory celebration  for them if they did


The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.


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## Serenity4321 (Aug 20, 2021)

Giants fan1954 said:


> I said it on 9/12/01 and I'll say it again...carpet bomb the whole country and that's it.
> If you're going to start talking about collateral damage, remember the 3k+ that died on 9/11.
> These people are savages.


I too remember my harsh feelings on 9/12/01 and was happy to hear  GW saying '_all of them will hear from us soon.._
Now..I have to think of how many innocents are caught up in collateral damage. Yes 'our' innocents suffered but is an eye for an eye really how we want to live_.. surely t_here is a better way


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> I too remember my harsh feelings on 9/12/01 and was happy to hear  GW saying '_all of them will hear from us soon.._
> Now..I have to think of how many innocents are caught up in collateral damage. Yes 'our' innocents suffered but is *an eye for an eye* really how we want to live_.. surely t_here is a better way


Just to be clear, whose eyes are you talking about?


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## Serenity4321 (Aug 20, 2021)

Verisure said:


> The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.


9/11 was the reason were went there


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> 9/11 was the reason were went there


What do the Taliban have to do with it? ANSWER: Nothing. Or are you privy to some special info on the matter?


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## Serenity4321 (Aug 20, 2021)

Verisure said:


> What do the Taliban have to do with it? ANSWER: Nothing. Or are you privy to some special info on the matter?


You are right.... the Taliban was not involved in 9/11..
BUT 9/11 was the impetus for our invasion...and the Taliban was driven out of power. Seems to me they would love to use that day to show us who is in charge now...


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 20, 2021)

Serenity4321 said:


> Seems to me they would love to use that day to show us who is in charge now...




Interesting how the news media and so many commentators continue to refer to Talibani as "insurgents".  Insurgents?  That would imply treason.  Since when are the majority of people and their government committing  "treason"?  On the contrary, it is the collaborators who worked with the invading  USA and West who were the treasonous insurgents.


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## Verisure (Aug 20, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Interesting how the news media and so many commentators continue to refer to Talibani as "insurgents".  Insurgents?  That would imply treason.  Since when are the majority of people and their government committing  "treason"?  On the contrary, it is the collaborators who worked with the invading  USA and West who were the treasonous insurgents.


An excellent point! I am also astounded when hearing suicide bombers referred to as "cowards".


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## Devi (Aug 20, 2021)

I wonder ... if the U.S. had not gone to Afghanistan, how would the Afghani people look at the Taliban?


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## Verisure (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> I wonder ... if the U.S. had not gone to Afghanistan, how would the Afghani people look at the Taliban?


I don't know ... How did the Afghani people look at the Taliban before the U.S. went there?

If Bush didn't lie about WMDs and invade Iraq how would the American people look at Democracy?


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## Devi (Aug 21, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I don't know ... How did the Afghani people look at the Taliban before the U.S. went there?


That's kind of what I'm saying.


Verisure said:


> If Bush didn't lie about WMDs and invade Iraq how would the American people look at Democracy?


Sorry; not following you there.


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## Verisure (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> That's kind of what I'm saying.
> 
> Sorry; not following you there.


I mean the perception of the Taliban and/or Democracy having been respected or disrespected.


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## Devi (Aug 21, 2021)

Verisure said:


> I mean the perception of the Taliban and/or Democracy having been respected or disrespected.


I don't know. What's your take on it?


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## Verisure (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> I don't know. What's your take on it?


It is our assumption that the Afghanis were clear on what Taliban philosophy was all about. We don't really know if the Soviet/American ravage of the country has changed their perspective of the Taliban or not but we do know that the Taliban are favoured in Afghanistan today. 

It is also our assumption that the American population had some idea of what Democracy is all about but I wonder if their perception of Democracy has changed since the corrupt and illegal invasion of Iraq and if Democracy is favoured in the US as they once understood it to be or if they feel that they have been disillusioned by it and would rather replace it for something else.


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## Devi (Aug 21, 2021)

Verisure said:


> It is also our assumption that the American population had some idea of what Democracy is all about but I wonder if their perception of Democracy has changed since the corrupt and illegal invasion of Iraq and if Democracy is favoured in the US as they once understood it to be or if they feel that they have been disillusioned by it and would rather replace it for something else.


Okay. I don't know who you're referring to with your use of "our", but I'll give a shot at answering.

Sure, I understand what Democracy is about. Whether we (the U.S.) should have gone into Iraq (etc.) is a different subject.

That does not mean I am so disillusioned with Democracy that I want to adopt ... what? ... communism? Or perhaps a lovely dictatorship? I don't think so. But I really don't know what you're vaguely suggesting there.

My approach is that, if something needs to be fixed, fix it.


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## Verisure (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> Okay. I don't know who you're referring to with your use of "our", but I'll give a shot at answering.
> 
> Sure, I understand what Democracy is about. Whether we (the U.S.) should have gone into Iraq (etc.) is a different subject.
> 
> ...


We (again I say "we" westerners) are probably of the opinion that Afghanis are familiar with the rules and regulations of the Taliban. Americans have been fed a load of misinformative Democratic values that they can see for themselves are not in use inside the US. It is my suggestion that Afghanis know what they are getting with a Taliban government whereas Americans do not know what is around the next corner with their government(s). 

Yes, I agree with you: *"if something needs to be fixed, fix it"*. Knowing what needs to be fixed or what needs to be shitcanned is the crux that the masses have been unable to decipher thanks to propaganda and censorship. Gorbatjov knew what needed to be fixed but he wasn't given the opportunity to do it. Saddam Hussein also knew (partially) what needed to be fixed but we know what happened to him and his nation. The same happened to Mohammad Mosaddegh of Iran. These are three cases where _so-called_ Democracy destroyed the endeavours of those who would "fix it".


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> I wonder ... if the U.S. had not gone to Afghanistan, how would the Afghani people look at the Taliban?





Clearly they favored the Taliban because they (along with their predecessors) removed the Soviets from their land. Nobody wants to have their country occupied by foreign colonialists whether they be from the Soviet Union of the USA.  As it was, the Taliban always gave much autonomy to provincial war lords and other tribal groupings who lived outside of the major cities. This is why so many Talibani were safely harbored by those provincials for all these years.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Devi said:


> My approach is that, if something needs to be fixed, fix it.





At no point did Iraqis or Afghanis feel they had a problem that needed to be "fixed" by foreign invaders and colonialist occupiers.


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## Verisure (Aug 21, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Clearly they favored the Taliban because they (along with their predecessors) removed the Soviets from their land. Nobody wants to have their country occupied by foreign colonialists whether they be from the Soviet Union of the USA.  As it was, the Taliban always gave much autonomy to provincial war lords and other tribal groupings who lived outside of the major cities. This is why so many Talibani were safely harbored by those provincials for all these years.


That's absolutely right.

* Fidel Castro's *socialist revolution* freed Cuba from the stranglehold of the American Mafia (with its backing from Washington). Thus Cuba became a *Socialist Republic*.

* The Ayatollah Khomeini and his *Islamic Revolution* of Iran freed their country from American control of their oilfields. Thus the nation became the *Islamic Republic of Iran.*

* Ho Chi Mihn's *Communist Revolution* freed Vietnam from French occupation and later from the US occupation. Thus Vietnam became the  *Socialist Republic of Vietnam*

* The *Taliban*  (et.al.) freed Afghanistan from Soviet occupation and now the American occupation. Thus Afghanistan will become the *Islamic Republic of Afghanistan* ruled by the Taliban.

No surprises. It's simple logic.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

Verisure said:


> We (again I say "we" westerners) are probably of the opinion that Afghanis are familiar with the rules and regulations of the Taliban.


This is true, however the majority of Afghan citizens do not like the Taliban's rules and regulations. At all. The Taliban's brutal, medieval brand of Islam isn't what most (almost all) Afghan's practice and it isn't what they want to live. But now they have to. Again. They aren't trying to escape the Taliban, per se, they're trying to escape a lifestyle that will now be imposed on them under the threat of torture and death if they don't fall in line. Basically, they don't want to be slaves.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> the majority of Afghan citizens do not like the Taliban's rules and regulations




source, please


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> source, please


Really?

You don't remember what happened there in the 90s? Do you not know that there are several interpretations of Islam and Islamic law? 

In short, the Talib's Islamic laws are extremely fundamental, draconian, barbaric. The average Afghan does not embrace the Talib interpretation of Islamic law. Their theologies differ greatly.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Really?
> 
> You don't remember what happened there in the 90s? Do you not know that there are several interpretations of Islam and Islamic law?
> 
> In short, the Talib's Islamic laws are extremely fundamental, draconian, barbaric. The average Afghan does not embrace the Talib interpretation of Islamic law. Their theologies differ greatly.





I like to see actual sources rather than unsubstantiated references.   

Taliban soldiers didn't just drop in from the stratosphere.   They had been living comfortably in the provinces where they had been more than welcomed.  Those provinces had many armed war lords who had absolutely no trouble with the Taliban or their way of life. 

By contrast, the supporters of the Ghani puppet regime were concentrated in the cities where they prospered with the the money given to them  (your tax dollars, of course) rather than distributed to the poor who needed it the most. 



~ Do you not know that there are several interpretations of Islam and Islamic law? ~

I have read the *Koran*  (Rodwell translation, translated in 1861), read Averoës in college, am very  well read in Mozarab and  Morisco  history, and have spent a good deal of time enjoying Andaluçian music. While I am no expert on denominational differences, and in answer to your question, yes I do know there are about as many Muslim denominations as there are in Christianity.  But as I said before, that is their concern, not mine or yours or that of Washington, DC.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I like to see actual sources rather than unsubstantiated references.
> 
> While I am no expert on denominational differences, and in answer to your question, yes I do know there are about as many Muslim denominations as there are in Christianity.  But as I said before, that is their concern, not mine or yours or that of Washington, DC.


For someone who isn't concerned, you've had an awful lot to say on the matter.

My "unsubstantiated references" are actual events in very recent history. Like, so recent it's barely even history yet. These events/references are at your fingertips.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Psaki: Trump Released THOUSANDS of Taliban - YouTube


Trump put 5,000 Taliban fighters back in battle and tied Biden’s hands in Afghanistan (dailykos.com)

Top Taliban leaders are among the 5000 that Trump released last year over everyone's objections - Alternet.org



I guess that was Trump's planned actions to make Afghanistan great again.













But, as always, it's more convenient to say BLAME BIDEN!


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 21, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> These events/references are at your fingertips.





I guess that's why Trump released so  many Taliban soldiers. As I said, it was his plan to make Afghanistan great again.


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## Murrmurr (Aug 21, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> I guess that's why Trump released so  many Taliban soldiers. As I said, it was his plan to make Afghanistan great again.


I don't know if Trump even cared, and I'm certain the Talib has other plans, but is there something wrong with Afghanistan being great? 'Cause I think it'd be great.


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## Been There (Aug 21, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I don't know if Trump even cared, and I'm certain the Talib has other plans, but is there something wrong with Afghanistan being great? 'Cause I think it'd be great.


You both got it wrong. More disinformation from haters.


----------

