# Australia today used helicopters and the army to enforce its 'Zero Covid' lockdown,



## hollydolly (Jul 31, 2021)

Australia today used helicopters and the army to enforce its 'Zero Covid' lockdown, as thousands of police flooded Sydney city centre to enforce the rules and hand out $500 fines for those not wearing a mask. 

Sirens blared across the city and a draconian message was broadcast from the skies, as millions were told: 'This is public health order —do not break rules —you will be found and fines issued.' 

_Ministers had tried to eliminate all cases through isolation and closed borders, but just 17% of adults have been vaccinated and concerns are now growing over the virus' growing prevalence across the country.

Today, up to 1,300 police officers swarmed Sydney and set up a network of roadblocks in a massive show of force to avoid a repeat of last week's violent anti-lockdown protest.

Some 250 fines, each worth $500, were issued across the city today, with one man arrested after travelling on trains outside his local government area without a reasonable excuse.

It comes after Prime Minister Scott Morrison had launched a four-stage plan back to freedom but said 80% of adults would have to be vaccinated before the border can begin to open.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9846939/Soldiers-sent-enforce-lockdown-Sydney.html_


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

Yep. That about sums it up. We cannot have a repeat of last weekend when roughly 3,500 idiots crowded into the city defying every health order and potentially becoming super spreaders of the delta variant. The last straw was an over muscled cave man punching a police horse in the head.

Yesterday the police simply turned away anyone who looked like repeating the folly. Punching horses is just not on.

The extremely low rate of vaccination is the big worry. The roll out has been poorly handled from the start and all we really have as a strategy to contain the virus is social distancing, mask wearing and containment of hotspots with stay at home orders. And lots of testing and contact tracing. So far this latest breakout in greater Sydney is quite worrying. The number of new cases keeps increasing but not exponentially because of the health orders.  In another week or so we will know how much damage last weeks mindless protest will have caused.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/07/24/09/45836297-9820795-image-a-20_1627115246332.jpg

A SKY news report on yesterday's police operation Sydney police presence deters protesters (msn.com)


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## OscarW (Jul 31, 2021)




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## Becky1951 (Jul 31, 2021)

"helicopters and the army"
"thousands of police flooded"
"Sirens blared across the city"
"message was broadcast from the skies"

OMG that sounds scary! I understand the necessity but that would be so stressful and frightening to see and hear.  Stay safe.


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## AnnieA (Jul 31, 2021)

Not surprised at the second major lockdown since the Australian government primarily relied on such strict social distancing from the first.  That only delayed the inevitable ...that cases would go up as restrictions loosened.  This round is kicking the can down the road as well.  People can't hole up and avoid it forever; the virus is out there waiting.

The implementation methods of this lockdown sound scary as hell.


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## fmdog44 (Jul 31, 2021)

Do civil liberties supersede the right to life?


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

On the whole we Australians are a co-operative bunch. For the time being most of us have given up the privilege of doing whatever we like when out and about. We have accepted the need to prevent unnecessary deaths by limiting travel into and from Australia and from hotspots where Covid in uncontrolled to other parts of the country. We do this because it is common sense when dealing with a very transmissible and virulent disease. We do it to protect ourselves, our families and vulnerable strangers.

We look forward to the day when this will be unnecessary but as far as Sydney is concerned it will continue until the rest of August.  Longer if idiots refuse to co-operate.

Along the way mistakes have been made and there are a number of political leaders who may not survive the next round of elections but the task that has landed in their laps has been, to use a rather hackneyed term, unprecedented in our lifetimes. I personally cut them a lot of slack because with one or two exceptions, they are doing their best to limit the human and commercial damage done by this virus. Our system of public health has been sorely tested and has stood up to the challenge and income support is available to people who are unable to work from home and to businesses small and large.  

Sydney is a very multicultural city with a huge population of migrants. It is their custom to cluster in certain localities and they come together regularly for shared meals with friends and family. Asking them to stop doing this is a message that is hard to get across and in this latest outbreak they have been hard hit with whole households becoming sick. In the last couple of days a man was found dead at home with Covid. He refused to go to hospital and all of his family are now very infected. 

Some of these new migrants are traumatised from their experiences of the police and military overseas and calling in the military to help our somewhat overstretched police force must be terrifying for them. In addition, they tend to be housed in high rise apartments rather than separate houses. Lockdowns are extremely hard on them and long lockdowns must be torture, especially where children are involved. 

Any selfish action, including demanding a non existent civil right to do as you please, regardless of the consequences, just prolongs the agony for so many people. It's bloody unAustralian in my book. To survive and thrive in a land that can be very harsh at times Australians have always pulled together in adversity. This land has shaped us as much as we have shaped the landscape. To understand our mindset you need to understand our geography and our history. 

All of the above is meant to explain why people like me are not in the least frightened by the police and the army being conspicuous yesterday. We are not living in a police state. No-one got shot. Lives were saved, not lost. A few people got infringement notices and will have to pay a fine.


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## chic (Jul 31, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Do civil liberties supersede the right to life?


Without civil liberties, is there life? Or slavery?


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## John cycling (Jul 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Australia today used helicopters and the army to enforce its 'Zero Covid' lockdown



*THIS - is what it's all been about from the start.*

It's good to see so many Australians, 83 percent of them, standing up for their rights and their freedoms.


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## Tish (Jul 31, 2021)

Here we go again, folks.


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

John cycling said:


> *THIS - is what it's all been about from the start.*
> 
> It's good to see so many Australians, 83 percent of them, standing up for their rights and their freedoms.


Where did you get the 83% figure? 
IMO it's more like 99.5%.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

hollydolly said:


> Australia today used helicopters and the army to enforce its 'Zero Covid' lockdown, as thousands of police flooded Sydney city centre to enforce the rules and hand out $500 fines for those not wearing a mask.
> 
> Sirens blared across the city and a draconian message was broadcast from the skies, as millions were told: 'This is public health order —do not break rules —you will be found and fines issued.'
> 
> ...


With ignorance and power comes fear and oppression.


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## AnnieA (Jul 31, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> With ignorance and power comes fear and oppression.



Aussies aren't ignorant!  Some of their politicians may be wonky and in this case downright scary--can't imagine that in another country  --but not ignorant.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Aussies aren't ignorant!  Some of their politicians may be wonky and in this case downright scary--can't imagine that in another country  --but not ignorant.


Any society that embraces a government who uses oppressive tactics to control their masses is in need of schooling.


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Any society that embraces a government who uses oppressive tactics to control their masses is in need of schooling.


A very American viewpoint.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> A very American viewpoint.


Proud to be.....honored to serve.


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

It is good to have a chuckle in perilous times.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> It is good to have a chuckle in perilous times.


I've been in the trenches since this whole thing started and I haven't quit laughing about it yet.


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## Bellbird (Jul 31, 2021)

Good on the Aussie govt. bringing in the army. A couple of weeks ago I was amazed at how many people flooded Bondi beach, no masks, no social distancing and this has been the norm for thousands of self centred Aussies, white, black,brown or brindle. It came as no surprise then when another shutdown was brought in and air travel was stopped. It is about pulling together as a country not about my right to infect others, how selfish can people get. But I forgot, they are bullet proof, yere right.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

Bellbird said:


> Good on the Aussie govt. bringing in the army. A couple of weeks ago I was amazed at how many people flooded Bondi beach, no masks, no social distancing and this has been the norm for thousands of self centred Aussies, white, black,brown or brindle. It came as no surprise then when another shutdown was brought in and air travel was stopped. It is about pulling together as a country not about my right to infect others, how selfish can people get. But I forgot, they are bullet proof, yere right.


You'll do well in the new communist world order.


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

Bellbird said:


> Good on the Aussie govt. bringing in the army. A couple of weeks ago I was amazed at how many people flooded Bondi beach, no masks, no social distancing and this has been the norm for thousands of self centred Aussies, white, black,brown or brindle. It came as no surprise then when another shutdown was brought in and air travel was stopped. It is about pulling together as a country not about my right to infect others, how selfish can people get. But I forgot, they are bullet proof, yere right.


Onya, Cousin. You'd think a visit to Bondi wouldn't be all that important in Winter and in the middle of an Covid outbreak, would you?


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## feywon (Jul 31, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Warrigal said:
> 
> 
> > On the whole we Australians are a co-operative bunch. For the time being most of us have given up the privilege of doing whatever we like when out and about. We have accepted the need to prevent unnecessary deaths by limiting travel into and from Australia and from hotspots where Covid in uncontrolled to other parts of the country. We do this because it is common sense when dealing with a very transmissible and virulent disease. We do it to protect ourselves, our families and vulnerable strangers.
> ...


Thank you for giving us a perspective we're not likely to get from our own Media here in USA. Fox news might even lift the scariest footage and say it's happening in a Blue state or going to happen nationwide.
This is one of my favorite things about the pervasiveness of the internet: We can get the viewpoint of people closer to something than we are.


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## WhatInThe (Aug 1, 2021)

fmdog44 said:


> Do civil liberties supersede the right





AnnieA said:


> Not surprised at the second major lockdown since the Australian government primarily relied on such strict social distancing from the first.  That only delayed the inevitable ...that cases would go up as restrictions loosened.  This round is kicking the can down the road as well.  People can't hole up and avoid it forever; the virus is out there waiting.
> 
> The implementation methods of this lockdown sound scary as hell.


That's the thing, when does it end; next week, next year,  next decade.  Trying to maintain that bubble could produce just as many bad side effects as what it's trying to keep out.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Looks like Australia has become a penal colony again.  Why do they put up with such draconian measures?

The last data I looked at showed 34, 381 cases of covid out of a population of, say, 25,000,000.  That amounts to about 0.01% or 1/100 of a percent.  Of those cases, there were only 934 deaths, which is a population death rate of 0.0037% or covid case death rate of  2.7%.

One could certainly argue that measures were keeping covid at bay; however, what price freedom and liberty?  Also, what are they going to do when the next variant or type of flu comes along?  Will the ADE generated by vaccination and isolation make the next one even more virulent?


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## Been There (Aug 1, 2021)

Here is a good, responsible report on the COVID variant Delta from Rochester Regional Health who is not the primary source of information, but they are noted for tracking and reporting competent and reliable information after they have substantiated the facts.I think it’s worth taking a few minutes to read it. The article may give some of us a little relief from all of the bad news. The point that was made stating that for those vaccinated, if they should contract the Delta variant, the worse they should expect is mild symptoms. And that 99.5% of all Delta variant deaths have been from unvaccinated people. 
https://hive.rochesterregional.org/2021/07/what-to-know-about-the-delta-variant-this-summer


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

The reason Australia in general and the eastern states are resorting to lockdown to stop the spread is that we don't have enough vaccine and we are second last in the developed world when it comes to vaccinating our population.

We have been lucky so far in that even with a numbers of blunders, insufficient availability of vaccines, failure to protect residents of aged care homes, and poorly managed hotel quarantine, the number of cases and the death toll has been very light in comparison to other advanced countries.

The low rate is  primarily due to lock downs, social distancing, hand hygiene and mask wearing. It is also due to the willingness of most of us to co-operate with public health orders. 

Some of my ancestors came here as involuntary migrants so I'll ignore the penal colony jibe.  

Lockdowns in Australia has been one of the measures we have taken to keep the virus from spreading widely in every state and city. The same cannot be said for US and UK where it has penetrated all parts of both countries. Vaccination is what authorities there are counting on now to limit the infection rate.

Australia and New Zealand have chosen a different approach. We are both island nations and that does make a good deal of difference. Should we just throw our hands in the air and just let things rip? How many lives should we sacrifice for a swim at Bondi ? Whose lives are the most expendable?


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> The reason Australia in general and the eastern states are resorting to lockdown to stop the spread is twofold
> 
> 1. We have been lucky so far in that even with a numbers of blunders, insufficient availability of vaccines, failure to protect residents of aged care homes, and poorly managed hotel quarantine, the number of cases and the death toll has been very light in comparison to other advanced countries.
> 
> ...


Two things that would bother me greatly in your situation are: 1.  the loss of precious (to me) freedom and 2, the (inevitable) law of unforeseen consequences such as ADE.  As for involuntary, my mother was sold into involuntary servitude, so I get it.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

What is ADE?


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> What is ADE?


Antibody-dependent enhancement.  It's analogous to how bacterium develop resistance to the overuse of antibiotics.


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## win231 (Aug 1, 2021)

Been There said:


> Here is a good, responsible report on the COVID variant Delta from Rochester Regional Health who is not the primary source of information, but they are noted for tracking and reporting competent and reliable information after they have substantiated the facts.I think it’s worth taking a few minutes to read it. The article may give some of us a little relief from all of the bad news. The point that was made stating that for those vaccinated, if they should contract the Delta variant, the worse they should expect is mild symptoms. And that 99.5% of all Delta variant deaths have been from unvaccinated people.
> https://hive.rochesterregional.org/2021/07/what-to-know-about-the-delta-variant-this-summer


A "Good, Responsible" report is one that you choose to believe.
The information in that report conflicts with information in other good, responsible reports.
The fact is, very little is known about Covid, the mutations and the vaccine.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Life is not risk free, nor is modern medicine. We must weigh up every situation to see how great the risks are and how much risk we are prepared to take. When there are two opposing risks i.e. getting sick versus getting vaccinated, we usually choose the less risky, but not always.

I chose to fly over and down into the Grand Canyon in a helicopter. There was a small risk that the helicopter would fall out of the sky but I was very happy to take that risk. While in America I refused to take a risk on rabies or the plague so I refrained from getting close to some very appealing little furry critters.  In Canada I paid particular attention to posters advising me how not to get killed by a bear. I didn't think it worth risk to go walking in the woods near our cabin and I obeyed all the rules about securing food and garbage. 

Do you get that I am trying to say? In my lifetime I have been immunised since infancy against all Kinds of diseases including TB, tetanus, polio, meningitis, yellow fever, hep A, shingles, influenza, pneumonia, and now sars-cov-2. Never had a problem but several diseases on that list are potentially deadly. I choose the needle over the disease almost every time.


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## win231 (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Life is not risk free, nor is modern medicine. We must weigh up every situation to see how great the risks are and how much risk we are prepared to take. When there are two opposing risks i.e. getting sick versus getting vaccinated, we usually choose the less risky, but not always.
> 
> I chose to fly over and down into the Grand Canyon in a helicopter. There was a small risk that the helicopter would fall out of the sky but I was very happy to take that risk. While in America I refused to take a risk on rabies or the plague so I refrained from getting close to some very appealing little furry critters.  In Canada I paid particular attention to posters advising me how not to get killed by a bear. I didn't think it worth risk to go walking in the woods near our cabin and I obeyed all the rules about securing food and garbage.
> 
> Do you get that I am trying to say? In my lifetime I have been immunised since infancy against all Kinds of diseases including TB, tetanus, polio, meningitis, yellow fever, hep A, shingles, influenza, pneumonia, and now sars-cov-2. Never had a problem but several diseases on that list are potentially deadly. I choose the needle over the disease almost every time.


Your body, your health, your choice.  Everyone's right to make.
The problem?  People who choose not to get the vaccine have no problem with others who choose to get the vaccine; as I don't.
People who DO choose to get the vaccine try to get others to make the same choice & are verbally abusive & have a stupid holier than thou attitude.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Has anybody taken a look at Sweden lately?   That country didn't impose harsh lockdowns and they seem to be doing very well.  This bit of info was sent to me.  I haven't tried to, and probably won't, confirm it yet.  

_Anders Tegnell said on Friday that there was “a lot we do not know” about Delta and cautioned against drawing “far-reaching conclusions” about the coronavirus strain. He noted that the variant had been circulating in Sweden “for quite some time” with little effect, particularly in high-risk settings such as nursing homes._​


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## WhatInThe (Aug 1, 2021)

Not sure what treatments or vaxxes being used in Australia but when data is starting to roll in that numerous vaxxes don't prevent the spread and are showing signs of needing a booster already for any country to wait for the ideal or best time to come out from the lockdowns and associated policy is risky let alone potentially long process.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

WhatInThe said:


> Not sure what treatments or vaxxes being used in Australia but when data is starting to roll in that numerous vaxxes don't prevent the spread and are showing signs of needing a booster already for any country to wait for the ideal or best time to come out from the lockdowns and associated policy is risky let alone potentially long process.


I keep thinking that the push for vaccination is so unbelievably strong from media, political and governmental sources that there almost has to be something very powerful, and possibly foreboding, behind it all.   Compared to times past, the numbers just don't seem to justify all this hysteria, drama and push, especially when you consider how inaccurately the data was collected.


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## OscarW (Aug 1, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Two things that would bother me greatly in your situation are: 1.  the loss of precious (to me) freedom and 2, the (inevitable) law of unforeseen consequences such as ADE.  As for involuntary, my mother was sold into involuntary servitude, so I get it.


I agree with your comments on freedom.  Without it we have nothing! And yes, I'd rather risk dying than lose my freedom.

I'll never understand why so many people are willing to surrender it so freely even if it might buy some temporary safety from the problem du jour.

H.L. Mencken said:

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

win231 said:


> Your body, your health, your choice.  Everyone's right to make.


I understand where you are coming from, Win231, but that has never been the full story for me. As the mother of small children, later a grandmother and now a great grandmother I have often sublimated my needs and desires for the sake of the children. My choices have consequences that flow out to people who could be affected by by my actions. 

I am a free agent but since I live in a community and depend on others for even my most basic needs -  food, utilities, health care and so on, I have responsibilities that put some limitations on my freedom. Currently in lockdown, I am ordering my groceries online. I appreciate the service and don't want to be the pass Covid to the men who deliver our food so even though I have been vaccinated I don a mask and maintain the required distance to protect me, the men, their families and mine. I am prepared to observe the current mandates of our governments, state and federal, because they make sense. In time these mandates will no longer be a necessity and we can all frolic to our hearts' desire. Until then we are being asked to forgo a bit pf personal freedom for the sake of the community as a whole.

Now, Win231, do you understand where I am coming from?


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> I understand where you are coming from, Win231, but that has never been the full story for me. As the mother of small children, later a grandmother and now a great grandmother I have often sublimated my needs and desires for the sake of the children. My choices have consequences that flow out to people who could be affected by by my actions.
> 
> I am a free agent but since I live in a community and depend on others for even my most basic needs -  food, utilities, health care and so on, I have responsibilities that put some limitations on my freedom. Currently in lockdown, I am ordering my groceries online. I appreciate the service and don't want to be the pass Covid to the men who deliver our food so even though I have been vaccinated I don a mask and maintain the required distance to protect me, the men, their families and mine. I am prepared to observe the current mandates of our governments, state and federal, because they make sense. In time these mandates will no longer be a necessity and we can all frolic to our hearts' desire. Until then we are being asked to forgo a bit pf personal freedom for the sake of the community as a whole.
> 
> Now, Win231, do you understand where I am coming from?



Your logic, as you state, is that these mandates will save mankind........when in fact, mankind doesn't need saving....not from covid anyway.
You've simply been brainwashed and led down a false path through fear and deceit......but there's still time to save yourself. Stay well.


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## peramangkelder (Aug 1, 2021)

I honestly cannot believe such draconian measures being undertaken in my Country....My Mother
If I never hear the word 'lockdown' again it will be too soon
The government must realise that lockdowns do not work....well they haven't so far
As soon as lockdowns are over the populace act like human lemmings


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## mellowyellow (Aug 1, 2021)

Thousands of protesters marched 2 weekends ago and planned another one last Saturday.  The cops squashed it flat, not a soul was seen in the city.  Job well done.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Here are the latest deaths in Florida from covid........down near zero.
In this same period, HUNDREDS have died from common diseases.......but you don't hear about them.
The government run media is doing a fantastic job of duping about half the population of the world.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Your logic, as you state, is that these mandates will save mankind........when in fact, mankind doesn't need saving....not from covid anyway.
> You've simply been brainwashed and led down a false path through fear and deceit......but there's still time to save yourself. Stay well.


Brainwashed? Moi? Bwaaahaaahaaa. 
Even hypnotists can't put me under.
I won't allow them to take control of my mind.
I think for myself, thank you very much.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

What evs.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Don't debate with your opinions & beliefs.......come armed with the facts.
Florida coronavirus cases and deaths | USAFacts


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Thanks for the graph, and embedded the link which I followed. Can you please explain this version of the data which represents new cases in Florida for July this year. 





The columns are showing a positive gradient. Are you confident that the final column is truly zero? 
How did Florida go from about 75 new cases on July 22 (~18K on the red line) to zero new cases less than a week later? What is Florida doing to achieve this truly miraculous result?


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Thanks for the graph, and embedded the link which I followed. Can you please explain this version of the data which represents new cases in Florida for July this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call the CDC and ask them. I'm sure you wouldn't believe anyone else.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Call the CDC?
You are surely aware that I live on the other side of the Pacific Ocean?

You live in Florida. You tell me what is happening there.
What is the reason for this dramatic turn around?

Alternately, we could both wait a couple of days to see what the next column looks like.


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## ohioboy (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> The last straw was an over muscled cave man punching a police horse in the head.


That would be a criminal offense in my state.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 1, 2021)

As our Founding Fathers said, government and laws exist to promote the *common welfare*. Kudos to the government there for protecting its citizens.


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## ohioboy (Aug 1, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> As our Founding Fathers said, government and laws exist to promote the *common welfare*. Kudos to the government there for protecting its citizens.


Promote the "General Welfare".


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Jeff, You are obfuscating. I have been searching for answers.

Here is another interactive data set that confirms Florida has reduced the death rate and the result is very impressive.

florida's covid 19 statistics - Bing

I am assuming that as a paramedic you are a man of science so I'm sure that it is axiomatic that every effect has a cause. That is what interests me.

From the same source showing the daily vaccinations...

florida's covid 19 statistics - Bing

These figures are even more impressive. Daily figures of up to 390,000 and weekly averages of 220,00 over the past 4 months. Could this be the cause of Florida's success?


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Ohioboy, It is here. Even more so when it is a police horse.


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## ohioboy (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Ohioboy, It is here. Even more so when it is a police horse.


The same with a police dog.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> That would be a criminal offense in my state.


Yeah, he should have punched the cop and left the poor horse alone.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Still a criminal offence. He has been charged.

Edit - here is the news report



> Police have charged two men after they allegedly struck a police horse during an anti-lockdown protest on Saturday. Thousands of angry protesters breached COVID-19 restrictions and took to Sydney CBD, demanding an end to the city's lockdown.
> 
> The image of a man punching a police horse, which was first shared by the Sydney Morning Herald, has caused outcry on social media.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Jeff, You are obfuscating. I have been searching for answers.
> 
> Here is another interactive data set that confirms Florida has reduced the death rate and the result is very impressive.
> 
> ...


I don't claim to know any more than I see out in the field & in the ER and what the true data says.
And the facts are I have NEVER treated or transported a COVID-19 patient and the ER's I work in and with are not stacking bodies up to the ceiling or in refrigerated trucks....in fact they're seeing little covid action and it's business as usual with truly sick patients....you know, the ones who are really dying of real diseases.
Again, I'm not saying people aren't contracting the covid virus. I'm merely stating that they are also contracting the common cold....... and in neither cases are they dying from either. The data proves this.
It is unfortunate that the government is using this information as a tool to instill fear & confusion in billions of people worldwide in their quest to divide and conquer. And they own most of the media....the propaganda machine.....that is doing all their dirty work for them.
That's about all I have. It's up to each person to sort out the truth & the facts from the lies and the propaganda.
Meanwhile, I'll go on shaking my head and take care of the really sick people of my district..... Stay well.


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## Time Waits 4 No Man (Aug 1, 2021)

There has been a total of 34,610 Covid cases in Australia (based on data as of today) with a 97% recovery rate. Yes, it's always sad when someone dies from something like this. But this is not exactly the Black Death and yet a great many act as if it is. Mass hysteria is aptly named.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Do I sound like an hysterical woman?


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Time Waits 4 No Man said:


> There has been a total of 34,610 Covid cases in Australia (based on data as of today) with a 97% recovery rate. Yes, it's always sad when someone dies from something like this. But this is not exactly the Black Death and yet a great many act as if it is. Mass hysteria is aptly named.


And I must ask....why can't ordinarily intelligent people see this? It defies logic.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Do I sound like an hysterical woman?


Not since I've known you......a bit rigid down the gooey parts maybe, but certainly not hysterical.


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Ta, but I shouldn't have asked that question because it is not all about me.
I apologise.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Ta, but I shouldn't have asked that question because it is not all about me.
> I apologise.


I don't see where that's necessary...........


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

Objectivity is sometimes the better course.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Objectivity is sometimes the better course.


True, but like everyone else who is following the media, we are passionate about what we feel and what we think.
So, no apology necessity......or you'd force me to apologize too.....and if that ever happened, why, my poor wife would just die of a ....heart attack!!! 
And she's such a sweetheart, we can't have that!


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## Warrigal (Aug 1, 2021)

No worries, mate.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> Promote the "General Welfare".




common welfare says it just as well:

Lesson 3: What Is a Republican Government? - civiced.org



quote:

*What is the Common Welfare?*​When a government tries to help everyone in a country, we say it is serving the common welfare. The common welfare is what is good for everyone in the country, not just a few people.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> common welfare says it just as well:
> 
> Lesson 3: What Is a Republican Government? - civiced.org
> 
> ...


So said Hitler...... and his minions followed.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> So said Hitler...... and his minions followed.





Our Founding Fathers may have had their faults but it is highly doubtful that their teachings paralleled those of Hitler.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Our Founding Fathers may have had their faults but it is highly doubtful that their teachings paralleled those of Hitler.


And still today there are those who actually believe the holocaust never happened......and some even want to teach that in our schools.
And we're not talking about founding fathers........we're talking modern politicians. Two different periods in time. Two entirely different agendas.
You go on believing whatever they tell you and you keep on marching when they tell you to march......let's just hope it isn't into a gas chamber.
Remember, the nazis were "helping" them into "showers" when they locked the doors and murdered them.
Stay well.


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## squatting dog (Aug 2, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Aussies aren't ignorant!  Some of their politicians may be wonky and in this case downright scary--can't imagine that in another country  --but not ignorant.



Don't take this wrong, but all humans are ignorant. (of something). There is a difference between ignorant and stupid. Ignorant means one hasn't had the opportunity to learn something. Stupid is having the opportunity and not learning... thus, all humans must be ignorant of something. If not, then they must be some kind of God in order to know all there is to know in the universe.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> And still today there are those who actually believe the holocaust never happened......and some even want to teach that in our schools.
> And we're not talking about founding fathers........we're talking modern politicians. Two different periods in time. Two entirely different agendas.
> You go on believing whatever they tell you and you keep on marching when they tell you to march......let's just hope it isn't into a gas chamber.
> Remember, the nazis were "helping" them into "showers" when they locked the doors and murdered them.
> Stay well.




Certain pols told us without any presenting so much as an iota of proof there were WMD all over Iraq and that mushroom clouds were impending. Too many people believed this nonsense and thousands needlessly perished because of it.  By contrast, with the consensus reached by so many experts  in the medical field (including a great many who are not in government) and other lines of work, I believe we can all take that vaccine in confidence.


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## squatting dog (Aug 2, 2021)




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## chic (Aug 2, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> View attachment 176766


I agree. So do many others.   Without our civil liberties we're just cattle.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> View attachment 176766





Ben Franklin said it is the government's role to look after your health especially if you are poor. This is why he and Dr. Thomas Bond helped found a public hospital.  Just in case someone thinks that is a communist idea, this was about 70 years before Marx was born.


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## chic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Ben Franklin said it is the government's role to look after your health especially if you are poor. This is why he and Dr. Thomas Bond helped found a public hospital.  Just in case someone thinks that is a communist idea, this was about 70 years before Marx was born.


If it's a socio economic issue, OK. This is jabbing healthy people with an experimental drug and/or locking them down at will until the world is immune which is ridiculous.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> View attachment 176766


I disagree. 

Rights are protected by the courts. 
Courts are not responsible for health. 
Health, including community health, is the responsibility of governments.


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## John cycling (Aug 2, 2021)

chic said:


> Without our civil liberties we're just cattle.



And that's exactly how they're treating us.







This is a replay of the 1918 "Spanish Flu" <-- when their actions caused the deaths of 50 million people.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

chic said:


> If it's a socio economic issue, OK. This is jabbing healthy people with an experimental drug and/or locking them down at will until the world is immune which is ridiculous.





The government locked down people in 1918 in order to combat the plague back then.  Courts upheld this action based on ancient laws of quarantine which were legal under the Anglo Saxon common law.  Therefore, it is perfectly legal today.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Certain pols told us without any presenting so much as an iota of proof there were WMD all over Iraq and that mushroom clouds were impending. Too many people believed this nonsense and thousands needlessly perished because of it.  By contrast, with the consensus reached by so many experts  in the medical field (including a great many who are not in government) and other lines of work, I believe we can all take that vaccine in confidence.


I applaud your confidence & wish you well.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Ben Franklin said it is the government's role to look after your health especially if you are poor. This is why he and Dr. Thomas Bond helped found a public hospital.  Just in case someone thinks that is a communist idea, this was about 70 years before Marx was born.


Those patients weren't being mandated to take unwanted care. Therein lies the difference.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The government locked down people in 1918 in order to combat the plague back then.  Courts upheld this action based on ancient laws of quarantine which were legal under the Anglo Saxon common law.  Therefore, it is perfectly legal today.


So they made the same injustice twice....and that makes it ok?  Two wrongs make it right??? Gotcha..... Makes sense.....to a socialist.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Those patients weren't being mandated to take unwanted care. Therein lies the difference.




Read up on Typhoid Mary.  She was forced to take treatments she didn't want.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> So they made the same injustice twice....and that makes it ok?  Two wrongs make it right??? Gotcha..... Makes sense.....to a socialist.





Correction: two acts of preventive medicine for the greater good of society.  Just like our Founding Fathers and others of that era did when enforcing the quarantine laws.  Marx wasn't even born yet so disabuse yourself of the socialist tags.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Read up on Typhoid Mary.  She was forced to take treatments she didn't want.


Mary Mallon was not forced to take treatments. She was forced in quarantine for the last 20 years of her life and died after about 30 years in isolation.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Correction: two acts of preventive medicine for the greater good of society.  Just like our Founding Fathers and others of that era did when enforcing the quarantine laws.  Marx wasn't even born yet so disabuse yourself of the socialist tags.


Socialism didn't begin with Marxist theory........these ridiculous primitive ideas predate him by millennia.
Socialism is not a person. It's a way of subjugating the masses.
And when your subjugation infringes on my basic liberties, I don't see it as preventive medicine, but rather, a deadly poison.

Stay well.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Mary Mallon was not forced to take treatments. She was forced in quarantine for the last 20 years of her life and died after about 30 years in isolation.




She was a human guinea pig in that various treatments were tried unsuccessfully.  You may look that up at your leisure. Thank you for conceding that she was quarantined.  Again, it proves the state can do so given that it has an overriding interest in preserving the public well being.  That's not "socialism".  It is *"police power"*:


In United States constitutional law, police power is* the capacity of the states to regulate behavior and enforce order within their territory for the betterment of the health, safety, morals, and general welfare of their inhabitants.* Police power is defined in each jurisdiction by the legislative body, which determines the public purposes that need to be served by legislation.

Police power (United States constitutional law) - Wikipedia


This, again, originates in the Anglo Saxon common law which was created HUNDREDS of years before Marx was born.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> these ridiculous primitive ideas predate him by millennia.





And they were both taught and practiced by our Founding Fathers.


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## John cycling (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Read up on Typhoid Mary.  She was forced to take treatments she didn't want.



Typhoid Mary - NEVER had typhoid!  
They locked her up for 30 plus years, ruined her life, tested her often and she NEVER tested positive for typhoid.
She was falsely blamed for doing something that she never did, so the petro-pharma crooks could keep deluding the public.

Today it's the same.  They won't try to blame you if you get poisoned by them and get sick or die.  
They'll blame the people they've not been able to poison.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> She was a human guinea pig in that various treatments were tried unsuccessfully.  You may look that up at your leisure. Thank you for conceding that she was quarantined.  Again, it proves the state can do so given that it has an overriding interest in preserving the public well being.  That's not "socialism".  It is *"police power"*:
> 
> 
> In United States constitutional law, police power is* the capacity of the states to regulate behavior and enforce order within their territory for the betterment of the health, safety, morals, and general welfare of their inhabitants.* Police power is defined in each jurisdiction by the legislative body, which determines the public purposes that need to be served by legislation.
> ...


They did try to treat her.......and she was a willing partner in her treatment. She wanted to get cured. Unfortunately, she was an asymptomatic carrier of Salmonella typhi and could not be cured.  Therefore, she was segregated from general population.
That being said.....even if she was hunted down and forced into treatment, what makes all that "right" in anyone's mind is beyond me.
What if the government suddenly gets the notion that at your age, you take up too many resources on this planet and you, your siblings, your older family members are now to set out on an iceberg. Your socialist beliefs would be ok with that????? For the good of the masses I mean????
It's always ok to make decisions for the other guy but curse the world for making a decision that affects me if I don't agree with it. 
Stay well.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

chic said:


> If it's a socio economic issue, OK. This is jabbing healthy people with an experimental drug and/or locking them down at will until the world is immune which is ridiculous.





(1) Disclaimer and Reminder | Senior Forums



Nothing like that has been acknowledged in any way by the CDC.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> And they were both taught and practiced by our Founding Fathers.


So, they were socialist. Ain't that dandy........So in your mind that makes it right! Come on, you've lived long enough to know better than that, I'm sure.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> (1) Disclaimer and Reminder | Senior Forums
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing like that has been acknowledged in any way by the CDC.


The CDC?????  They never acknowledged something so therefore it can't possibly be so??????
oldiebutgoody, I'm beginning to lose confidence in your ability to keep up. Please, step it up a notch.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> she was a willing partner in her treatment. She wanted to get cured.




History shows she tried to avoid treatment and used a pseudonym to hide her identity:

Mary Mallon (1869-1938) and the history of typhoid fever (nih.gov)





Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Your socialist beliefs would be ok with that?




Correction:  Americanist beliefs.  Please do not resort to labelling or name calling as that is not acceptable TOS. 




The law is the law whether anyone accepts it or not.  The Anglo Saxon common law and the Constitution empower the government to take any or all preventive and corrective actions.  This is what it did with Typhoid Mary, during the 1918 plague, and today.  Failure to do so would result in needless deaths.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> (1) Disclaimer and Reminder | Senior Forums
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing like that has been acknowledged in any way by the CDC.


You'll  be happy to know that the CDC stated in an article just today that 40,000 people will die in Florida in the next four weeks.
Then, in the body of their article, they revised their statement to read 500 people in Florida will die every week over the next four weeks for a total of 2000 people in four weeks.
They can't even get their story straight in their own news release.
And what a mouthful they said.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> History shows she tried to avoid treatment and used a pseudonym to hide her identity:
> 
> Mary Mallon (1869-1938) and the history of typhoid fever (nih.gov)
> 
> ...


Yes, if the government made a law, it must be what's best for their people. Ha ha ha ha..


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Yes, if the government made a law, it must be what's best for their people. Ha ha ha ha..






And if our Founding Fathers were alive today they would be the first ones to endorse government's preventive and corrective actions.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> And if our Founding Fathers were alive today they would be the first ones to endorse government's preventive and corrective actions.


Pssst.......Those founding fathers.......they're all dead.  Sorry, but someone had to tell you.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Obviously, you missed the word "if".

LOL


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> History shows she tried to avoid treatment and used a pseudonym to hide her identity:
> 
> Mary Mallon (1869-1938) and the history of typhoid fever (nih.gov)
> 
> ...


Here are some great laws the governments around the world have made.........you'll see in the list just how much we can depend on our governments to see to our best interests.  Enjoy!
50 Weird Laws Around the World | Far & Wide (farandwide.com)


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> Obviously, you missed the word "if".
> 
> LOL


I saw it.........but chose to ignore it for dramatic effect.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Mary Mallon was not forced to take treatments. She was forced in quarantine for the last 20 years of her life and died after about 30 years in isolation.


Where was her right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness?


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

anarchist movement's anti government   propaganda:












most rational thinking people would be largely inclined to agree that it's better to have government than not to have it


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## ohioboy (Aug 2, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> Be wery, wery careful says porky the pig.....


That's Elmer Fudd you're referencing.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

ohioboy said:


> That's Elmer Fudd your'e referencing.


True that..... I sit here corrected.
But I have what I feel is a valid excuse as I was deprived of watching cartoons as a child and forced by my parents to attend school, study at home, and to grow up to help those less fortunate.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

I just saw this cartoon on the Christian cartoon channel on vaughn site.  It answers those who criticize government and its police power authority which, as I have previously proven, was conferred by our Founding Fathers.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

Time out....,,
I'm having a bowl of the most delicious fresh berries with fresh whipped cream and they are just marvelous!!!!
My precious wife spoils me so....... I sometimes think I truly don't deserve her!....... on second thought, yeah... I do!


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

You are a lucky man.
A good woman is more precious that rubies.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

I beat the cream. Sometimes I give it a good whipping.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> Where was her right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness?





See the link I provided.  Her "rights" were limited when it infringed upon the right to liberty, health, and the pursuit of happiness  of others as she  was proven "responsible for the contamination of at least one hundred and twenty two people, including five dead".


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 2, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> British commander Amherst did it before:  Amherst and Smallpox (umass.edu)
> 
> 
> Prior to that the Catholic church did that in Mexico and California to Native Americans: (1) native americans killed in mexico and california by smallpox plague - Bing images


uhhhhhhhhhhh......yeah, we know....but thanks for the refresher.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

And in medieval times siege warfare sometimes involved catapulting diseased cadavers over the ramparts.
Let us by all means look to the past to learn how to be better in the present.

Living in present times requires democratic societies to find a fulcrum that allows us to balance personal freedom against social responsibility to others. The fulcrum is not fixed. In times of crises it moves in favour of the latter. A world war is one such crisis. A global pandemic is another. When the crisis is over, the fulcrum moves back to a more comfortable centre point.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Now the question to ask is, how many deaths will be prevented because of the Australian government's preventive actions.  Without mitigation thousands would die.  Now many of those thousands will be saved.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Before you go, read this:


Las Vegas father of five dies from COVID — ‘I should have gotten the damn vaccine’​
Dad dies from COVID — 'I should have gotten the damn vaccine’ - New York Daily News (nydailynews.com)




A father of five, already hooked up to a bed in a Las Vegas hospital, texted his fiancée and expressed his regret over not getting the COVID-19 shot.
“I should have gotten the damn vaccine,” Michael Freedy wrote.




Michael Freedy, top, died of complications from coronavirus. (GoFundMe)
On Thursday, the 39-year-old, known by friends as “Big Mike” died of complications from coronavirus. He contracted the disease during a vacation in San Diego with his fiancée, Jessica du Preez, and their five children — ages 17, 10, 7, 6 and 17 months.
Shortly after they returned from the trip earlier this month, Freedy developed a painful skin rash.
“He was getting chills, couldn’t eat, couldn’t get comfortable, couldn’t sleep,” du Preez told KLAS. “All symptoms of sun poisoning.”
Eventually, Freedy tested positive for COVID-19 and developed difficulty breathing with pneumonia in both lungs, du Preez said. His family hoped for the best, but in the end he did not survive the virus.
“His numbers crashed and they were not able to bring them back up,” du Preez wrote on the family’s GoFundMe page. “The love of my life, my rock, my everything. The father to my babies is no longer with us. I don’t know what to do.”




Michael Freedy died of complications from coronavirus. (GoFundMe)
Du Preez said her family decided to wait a year to get vaccinated over concerns about the potential long-term health effects.
“We were just holding off, and now to think that if we just had gotten the shot a week before or a month before when one of our jobs had a vaccination thing, he could still be here,” she told the news station.
Both du Preez and her eldest child got the first dose of the vaccine when Freedy was admitted to the hospital, she said.
About 40% of people over the age of 18 in the U.S. have not been vaccinated, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.





Would have been better for him to heed government warnings than those of uninformed pundits who subscribe to groundless nonsense.


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## Warrigal (Aug 2, 2021)

Thanks oldiebutgoodie. 

For some reason Australians put a high value on human life.*
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that our population only numbers a bit over 25 million.

We call ourselves "The Lucky Country" even though the person who coined that description was being ironic.
We are lucky because of our position on the planet. 
We do not have quite a few human, plant and animal diseases that are endemic in other countries.
This did not happen by accident but by vigilance and rapid response to early signs of breeches in quarantine.

* No death penalty,  free public hospitals,  weapons legislation and public health mandates in response to Covid 
We wouldn't have it any other way.

And yes, in the past, atrocities up to and including poisonings and massacres were committed against our first nation people. They still suffer today. This is a blind spot we have yet to fully illuminate.


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## oldiebutgoody (Aug 2, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> This did not happen by accident but by vigilance and rapid response to early signs of breeches in quarantine.
> 
> * No death penalty, free public hospitals, weapons legislation and public health mandates in response to Covid
> We wouldn't have it any other way.





Same thing happened in Canada and in New Zealand.  While some delusional pundits say these measures take away their "freedoms", those actions promote our freedom to live and to do so in a healthy manner.  The vast majority of people in the USA feel that way as shown by the fact that 70% of the population have gotten inoculated with numbers now accelerating. A few months ago, there were reportedly as many as three million Americans getting vaccinated on a daily basis.  Let's hope we will see similar numbers real soon. Then, once the disease is contained thanks to the mitigation measures, life will go back to normal both at home and abroad.


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## chic (Aug 3, 2021)

oldiebutgoody said:


> The government locked down people in 1918 in order to combat the plague back then.  Courts upheld this action based on ancient laws of quarantine which were legal under the Anglo Saxon common law.  Therefore, it is perfectly legal today.


I didn't say the emergency measure wasn't legal. After 18 months this is no longer the emergency it was at the outset. It's immoral. It's oppression for oppression's sake. It's not to protect anyone's health. It's about control because without freedom there is no health. You know this.


----------

