# The Homeless



## mellowyellow (Feb 2, 2021)

_In Brazil, Priest Julio Lancellotti breaking stones put under a bridge to prevent homeless people from sleeping._

This wonderful man is trying to help while we sit idly by and watch how the cities of the world thinks up new ways to prevent the homeless from cluttering up the sidewalks.  I know there is nothing we can do personally, but the way we (the lucky ones) turn a blind eye and pretend it isn't happening doesn't seem right.  What do you think?


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 2, 2021)

I can't speak for other countries, but as far as I'm concerned, in the West, homelessness and hungry shouldn't exist.

Bless Priest Julio Lancellotti.


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## asp3 (Feb 2, 2021)

If this is deemed political please let me know and I'll edit it to say removed.

We can educate ourselves about what has worked in other places and elect officials who are willing to enact potentially unpopular programs in order to help us reduce the situation.

There is a program in the Pacific northwest that provides stable housing to homeless people which also includes access to assistance where they live.  The program has already proven to get a greater percentage of people off the street and then able to start living independently in housing they pay for.  In addition the cost of the provided housing is less than the savings for reduced police action related to homeless issues, emergency room medical care for the homeless and other costs.  I don't have an article describing the program but I can look for one if needed.

I consider homeless not so much a problem as a symptom of another problem.


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## FastTrax (Feb 2, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> _In Brazil, Priest Julio Lancellotti breaking stones put under a bridge to prevent homeless people from sleeping._
> 
> This wonderful man is trying to help while we sit idly by and watch how the cities of the world thinks up new ways to prevent the homeless from cluttering up the sidewalks.  I know there is nothing we can do personally, but the way we (the lucky ones) turn a blind eye and pretend it isn't happening doesn't seem right.  What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 147679





Aunt Marg said:


> I can't speak for other countries, but as far as I'm concerned, in the West, homelessness and hungry shouldn't exist.
> 
> Bless Priest Julio Lancellotti.





asp3 said:


> If this is deemed political please let me know and I'll edit it to say removed.
> 
> We can educate ourselves about what has worked in other places and elect officials who are willing to enact potentially unpopular programs in order to help us reduce the situation.
> 
> ...



Not at all asp3. I would think a great portion of the clear thinking SF membership would understand the meaning of your message. For the most part politicians and their alter ego the insurrectionist make social issues political and usually for monitory gain or power.

Here ya go my friend.



www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/a-new-approach-to-get-homeless-people-out-of-camps-has-shown-success-but-its-funding-expires-soon/


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## Gary O' (Feb 2, 2021)

Seems the homeless are a lot more visible in the winter months, at least here anyway.

Wife and I stop, whenever we see a bundle in an alleyway or closed storefront alcove
Those bundles usually have a person in them
We have little bags of things for immediate needs we give out

We've done the soup kitchen thing, but not this year....yet

Portland OR *had *a promising program, but the rioting may have squelched that a bit

I've considered getting involved again in housing and employment programs, but there's just so many road blocks with city regs and such

So, we just do the hand out thing


asp3 said:


> I consider homeless not so much a problem as a symptom of another problem.


I'm there with that


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## FastTrax (Feb 2, 2021)

Gary O' said:


> Seems the homeless are a lot more visible in the winter months, at least here anyway.
> 
> Wife and I stop, whenever we see a bundle in an alleyway or closed storefront alcove
> Those bundles usually have a person in them
> ...



Amen to that G O'


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## asp3 (Feb 2, 2021)

FastTrax said:


> Not at all asp3. I would think a great portion of the clear thinking SF membership would understand the meaning of your message. For the most part politicians and their alter ego the insurrectionist make social issues political and usually for monitory gain or power.
> 
> Here ya go my friend.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the article link.  I had actually heard about another program possibly two to years ago (well before the pandemic) talking about a program that got homeless people into housing and then started addressing their issues.  I'll see if I can find an article about it.


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## asp3 (Feb 2, 2021)

OK, here's an article about one that was done in Los Angeles.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-12-la-homeless-housing-money.html

Here's an article about a program in Denver that saved more than it cost.

https://endhomelessness.org/study-d...hronically-homeless-people-saves-money-lives/

This is a more generic article promoting housing homeless to save money.

https://endhomelessness.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Cost-Savings-from-PSH.pdf

Here's one about a program that worked in North Carolina.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4046466/


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## dobielvr (Feb 3, 2021)

I'm all for helping the homeless, but there are some of them out there that just don't want to be helped.

Especially , if it involves getting a job, and getting back in to society.

jmo


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## Pepper (Feb 3, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> I'm all for helping the homeless, but there are some of them out there that just don't want to be helped.
> 
> Especially , if it involves getting a job, and getting back in to society.
> 
> jmo


Then help the other over 90% that may have become homeless through a fault not their own.  As for those who don't want help fine.  As it stands now the majority who need the help either don't get it or don't get enough.

There but for the grace of god.....................


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## Jeni (Feb 3, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Then help the other over 90% that may have become homeless through a fault not their own.  As for those who don't want help fine.  As it stands now the majority who need the help either don't get it or don't get enough.
> 
> There but for the grace of god.....................


I am not sure your percentage is accurate......depending on area I feel is  closer to 50% or less.

  Many of the programs and such ........hit media in the short term showing great success .........but are NOT mentioned again as the programs start to show abuse or not the promised outcomes..... there are tiny house villages in seattle rent free for up to a year for people to get on their feet suppose to be no drugs.... littered with needles .....  they never enforce the rules on folks in so the real groups just needing to get on their feet are scared to participate as many are violent and dangerous.

Many of the hotel / motel rooms in the Seattle area ( in one of the above links)  were trashed and damaged ended up with the cities having to compensate or buy the property... millions in damage....   if you were thrilled to get out of cold have a bed and hot shower and things........ why would they punch holes in walls throw tv or microwaves out the windows... start fires.....

another program used by many cities in the PNW pay for bus tickets to get someone back to (another city) where the homeless have family or support ....... some recipients have used this program over 6 times .... 
they talk about travel for vacation .... as their family does not want them around and take care of them............ so they make their way back to "Free-attle" as it is called as they cater to the homeless........

the root cause is never discussed or touched......   even if employed and not drugs or mental health issues many have zero ability to handle money which is an important SKILL for everyone.....to budget and not get into over their head.


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## dobielvr (Feb 3, 2021)

Pepper said:


> Then help the other over 90% that may have become homeless through a fault not their own.  As for those who don't want help fine.  As it stands now the majority who need the help either don't get it or don't get enough.
> 
> There but for the grace of god.....................


I hear you.


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## rgp (Feb 3, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> I'm all for helping the homeless, but there are some of them out there that just don't want to be helped.
> 
> Especially , if it involves getting a job, and getting back in to society.
> 
> jmo




 I agree strongly here.


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## peramangkelder (Feb 3, 2021)

'


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## Shalimar (Feb 3, 2021)

I have been homeless, in a big city, almost died. Living on the street is particularly perilous for women and children. I have also worked with many homeless throughout my career. Most of those who remain on the street are there because of circumstances beyond their control, and/or an inability to function in the world. Never  

have I found anyone even remotely sane who stated a preference for the dangers and deprivation of living on the street rather than getting a job/help  or better accommodation. Mental illness, substance abuse, domestic violence and other trauma, etc, can rob 

a person of their capacity to function, to change themselves or their environment. Just look at the shame both our countries share re the thousands of homeless vets found in cities throughout Canada and USA. They gave their all to 

keep us safe, they deserve better. Thousands of children are also homeless. Many of them trafficked. Considering how difficult it is for “normal” people to rise out of homelessness, imagine what obstacles the rest face. Difficult to pull oneself up by bootstraps when one lacks boots.


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## izzy (Feb 3, 2021)

Bottom line is we live in a crazy world where there are people with more money than they could ever spend in their lifetime and there are people due to many different things with sweet nothing living in the gutters.   If only we could live in a society where we truly cared and looked after each other rather than just looking after ourselves.  Does anybody really need a second home when there are people with no homes !


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## horseless carriage (Feb 3, 2021)

For what it's worth mellowyellow, I am betwixed and between. Homelessness is to be deplored and help given to those in need. Whilst Father Julio Lancellotti's protest is admirable, the catholic dogma about contraception is, as far as this catholic boy is concerned, part of the problem. The official catholic teaching forbids any use of contraception, but it's left to the foot soldiers like Father Lancellotti to deal with the fall out of that dogma. So many catholics in this world are convinced that they will spend all eternity in the fires of hell if they should ever use some sort contraception and as a result, large families and homelessness will persist.
Enough said, I don't want my wrist slapped for turning a thread into a political argument.


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## asp3 (Feb 3, 2021)

I think that many people buy into stereotypes and myths about the homeless and homelessness.  Here are some articles that shed some light on homelessness and the homeless.

I ran into a statistic while looking for articles saying that at least 25% of the homeless are currently employed.  Unfortunately I didn't flag the article so I'm not able to provide a source for the information.

Here's an article that says about 50% of the homeless in the Los Angeles area recently held a job.

https://laist.com/2020/02/27/homeless_los_angeles_working_employment_california_policy_lab.php

Here's another written by a person who used to be homeless.  Although it gives an excellent explanation of the challenges faced by the homeless it doesn't have statistics backed by anything other than the author's personal experience.

https://soapboxie.com/social-issues/why-homeless-people-dont-just-get-a-job

Here's an excellent article on the state of homelessness in the United States put out in 2020.  It has great links to the sources of it's information.

https://endhomelessness.org/homeles...ssness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/


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## Irwin (Feb 3, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> I have been homeless, in a big city, almost died. Living on the street is particularly perilous for women and children. I have also worked with many homeless throughout my career. Most of those who remain on the street are there because of circumstances beyond their control, and/or an inability to function in the world. Never
> 
> have I found anyone even remotely sane who stated a preference for the dangers and deprivation of living on the street rather than getting a job/help  or better accommodation. Mental illness, substance abuse, domestic violence and other trauma, etc, can rob
> 
> ...



Where did you sleep when you were homeless?

I still believe that communes are the best solution for homeless people. Give them a decent place to live with meals and clothing, but they have to work for the benefit of the commune, and anyone who was destructive would get kicked out. It seems like that would be far better than living on the streets and eating garbage or at soup kitchens. I know it would be cheaper than what it costs to "manage" the homeless in big cities.


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## Shalimar (Feb 3, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Where did you sleep when you were homeless?
> 
> I still believe that communes are the best solution for homeless people. Give them a decent place to live with meals and clothing, but they have to work for the benefit of the commune, and anyone who was destructive would get kicked out. It seems like that would be far better than living on the streets and eating garbage or at soup kitchens. I know it would be cheaper than what it costs to "manage" the homeless in big cities.


 I slept on cardboard in an alley until I was assaulted. Thank God I was rescued.


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## Irwin (Feb 3, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> I slept on cardboard in an alley until I was assaulted. Thank God I was rescued.



How were you rescued?


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## Shalimar (Feb 3, 2021)

Irwin said:


> How were you rescued?


 Purely by chance, unless one believes in Fate. A vet, suffering from PTSD, and haunted by the loss of his daughter to drugs and the street, heard me crying. I was in shock. He rescued me, took me home, and patched me up. I stayed with him until I 

could function again. It took a while. I owe him my life and my sanity, and I have been paying it forward ever since. No wonder so many of my clients are vets.


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## horseless carriage (Feb 3, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> I slept on cardboard in an alley until I was assaulted. Thank God I was rescued.





Shalimar said:


> Purely by chance, unless one believes in Fate. A vet, suffering from PTSD, and haunted by the loss of his daughter to drugs and the street, heard me crying. I was in shock. He rescued me, took me home, and patched me up. I stayed with him until I
> 
> could function again. It took a while. I owe him my life and my sanity, and I have been paying it forward ever since. No wonder so many of my clients are vets.


What an inspirational story, brave of you to share it. I hope that posting it here is cathartic for you and that it might bring hope to anyone reading it. There are many who read forums but never join in.


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## Shalimar (Feb 3, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> What an inspirational story, brave of you to share it. I hope that posting it here is cathartic for you and that it might bring hope to anyone reading it. There are many who read forums but never join in.


 Oh, thank you so much for such a kind and thoughtful post. Yes, even after all this time, there is a sense of catharsis whenever I share this experience. If my words bring hope to others then I am delighted to be of help.


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## izzy (Feb 3, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Purely by chance, unless one believes in Fate. A vet, suffering from PTSD, and haunted by the loss of his daughter to drugs and the street, heard me crying. I was in shock. He rescued me, took me home, and patched me up. I stayed with him until I
> 
> could function again. It took a while. I owe him my life and my sanity, and I have been paying it forward ever since. No wonder so many of my clients are vets.


So glad to hear your awful experience had a positive outcome.  No one should have to go through that.


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## Shalimar (Feb 3, 2021)

izzy said:


> So glad to hear your awful experience had a positive outcome.  No one should have to go through that.


   Thank you so much. It was terrible, but it altered the trajectory of my life in a positive manner. It propelled me into a decade of university where I learned the skills necessary to fulfil my vocation.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 3, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I still believe that communes are the best solution for homeless people. Give them a decent place to live with meals and clothing, but they have to work for the benefit of the commune, and anyone who was destructive would get kicked out. It seems like that would be far better than living on the streets and eating garbage or at soup kitchens. I know it would be cheaper than what it costs to "manage" the homeless in big cities.


In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".

Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.

Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you _want_ to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.


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## Gary O' (Feb 3, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> You can't help if you _want_ to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.


Yup

Best situation I've seen was a cobbled camp site in some state owned woods, about a half mile off the hwy
No real rules, but the rowdies got run out in a hurry
Those that hung on knew to bring in what they could


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## Irwin (Feb 3, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".
> 
> Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.
> 
> Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you _want_ to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.



There are limits as to what you can do on your own property defined by zoning laws, among other things. I don't know what the details of that were, but she must have been violating some law.

Here's a story from two years ago about a successful commune down in Austin, Texas:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/iyw-town-for-the-homeless-trnd/index.html

If I was homeless and couldn't work, that's where I'd go.


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## Della (Feb 4, 2021)

Jeni said:


> if you were thrilled to get out of cold have a bed and hot shower and things........ why would they punch holes in walls throw tv or microwaves out the windows...


Because you had schizophrenia and believed the voices you heard were coming from those appliances or that the government was spying on you through them.  Mental illness also accounts for the ones who "Don't want to be helped," meaning they wont go to the shelters or hospitals because they believe that's another form of government control or that they will be attacked and have their few possessions stolen ( that one is true in many cases.)  

While we're talking of the various statistics we've seen -- I've seen it estimated that as many as 80% of homeless are mentally ill.  In the 1970's and 80's, when the big psychiatric hospitals closed their doors and sent their patients out to be "cared for within the community," the towns didn't have the money or the specialists and that's when the homeless problem really got going.

We_ must _ take care of these people, whether they are Vets with PTSD or people who inherited a mental illness from their family genes, they are sick.   We wouldn't expect people who had strokes or heart disease to take care of themselves.  Many mentally ill people can function very well, just with medication, but the rest need to be in hospitals or their family homes.  Other countries do much better than we are doing for their mentally ill.  We either turn them out on the streets or send them to prison.


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## Jeni (Feb 4, 2021)

Della said:


> Because you had schizophrenia and believed the voices you heard were coming from those appliances or that the government was spying on you through them.  Mental illness also accounts for the ones who "Don't want to be helped," meaning they wont go to the shelters or hospitals because they believe that's another form of government control or that they will be attacked and have their few possessions stolen ( that one is true in many cases.)
> 
> While we're talking of the various statistics we've seen -- I've seen it estimated that as many as 80% of homeless are mentally ill.  In the 1970's and 80's, when the big psychiatric hospitals closed their doors and sent their patients out to be "cared for within the community," the towns didn't have the money or the specialists and that's when the homeless problem really got going.
> 
> We_ must _ take care of these people, whether they are Vets with PTSD or people who inherited a mental illness from their family genes, they are sick.   We wouldn't expect people who had strokes or heart disease to take care of themselves.  Many mentally ill people can function very well, just with medication, but the rest need to be in hospitals or their family homes.  Other countries do much better than we are doing for their mentally ill.  We either turn them out on the streets or send them to prison.


Look at the items around this subject the % change to match a point ........

yes, people are forced out as rents rise building sold etc  .... yes some people are unemployed or more likely underemployed........ 
i believe there are many many reasons for those on the street ...... and not one way .................

I would agree to a large part with you reading about the  estimated % with real  mental health issues....

in my previous post, I was referring to those whom seem to think most are homeless through items beyond them.....like the example person in link that is just down on her luck not mentally or chemically unstable .... 
when approached with a hand up ......they gladly accept .......................then turn and bite the hand that was willing to help.


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.  

Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems.  Or both.  Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)


"Advocates" for the homeless like to portray them as down on their luck, or as typical working folks just unable to afford expensive housing. 

But...

According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration (SAMHSA) an estimated 64% of homeless people had drug use problems in the past month, 38% had alcohol use problems, and 39% had some form of mental health problems.

https://www.rehabspot.com/drugs/who-addiction-affects/homelessness/


Fixing this problem means spending money on supervised mental health facilities and serious drug and alcohol rehab programs.  In some cases, it may mean providing purpose-built apartments for homeless people.  This actually costs less than treating people for the multiple ER visits that accompany being homeless.  It means changing NIMBY housing regulations to allow such housing to be built (repurposing old buildings can work).  

There's nothing romantic about homelessness and taking care of the homeless doesn't mean letting them sleep on the streets.   Sprawling homeless camps aren't a sign of compassion or successful municipal management, they are a sign of failure.  The Mayor of LA should resign in disgrace.  People have a right to navigate the streets of their own cities without worrying about needles, human feces or other problems that accompany homelessness.  

There are certainly people who are homeless "through no fault of their own" but they shouldn't be encouraged (or allowed) to pitch tents.  They should get the help they need to find jobs and/or housing.  

This is a fiendishly complex problem and I know I'm oversimplifying.  But I do know that looking at the problem through rose-colored glasses won't solve anything.


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## Aneeda72 (Feb 4, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> For what it's worth mellowyellow, I am betwixed and between. Homelessness is to be deplored and help given to those in need. Whilst Father Julio Lancellotti's protest is admirable, the catholic dogma about contraception is, as far as this catholic boy is concerned, part of the problem. The official catholic teaching forbids any use of contraception, but it's left to the foot soldiers like Father Lancellotti to deal with the fall out of that dogma. So many catholics in this world are convinced that they will spend all eternity in the fires of hell if they should ever use some sort contraception and as a result, large families and homelessness will persist.
> Enough said, I don't want my wrist slapped for turning a thread into a political argument.


Most Catholics in the USA use birth control, and have smaller families.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

Irwin said:


> There are limits as to what you can do on your own property defined by zoning laws, among other things. I don't know what the details of that were, but *she must have been violating some law.*
> 
> Here's a story from two years ago about a successful commune down in Austin, Texas:
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/iyw-town-for-the-homeless-trnd/index.html
> ...


Yes, of course .. some civic codes at least, a state law possibly. Not a federal law, I'm sure. She didn't go to prison, she spent a few hours in jail and paid a hefty fine and the police trampled her flower gardens.

Why we are prohibited from helping our fellow man is beyond me.


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> In 2001, a woman in a large city near here opened her personal property, 4 acres of well-maintained lawns, to start a homeless commune. Tents required (dozens immediately donated by neighbors), sanitation and laundry services in place, meals available, and strict rules and a curfew prominently posted (no drugs, alcohol, weapons, misconduct, etc). Within 3 weeks, the woman was arrested, tents destroyed and 30 commune residents "relocated".
> 
> Same thing happened here in Sacramento 5 times over the past 8 years. Three of those 5 bought permits that allowed camping on their personal property beyond the civic code's 3 day limit.
> 
> Did I mention this was all on personal property? You can't help if you _want_ to even if you have safety measures and explicit rules in place, even if you buy a (non-refundable) permit. Everyone who's tried has been raided, arrested, and heavily fined by local police.




If my next door neighbor did such a thing, I would certainly do all I could to have her arrested.


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## Aneeda72 (Feb 4, 2021)

There are some hard core homeless, who prefer to be homeless.  My daughter has worked in this field, and she is knowledgeable.  One of my granddaughters prefers to be homeless and is not mentally ill or a drug addict or incapable of working.  It’s sad.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.
> 
> Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems.  Or both.  Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)
> 
> ...


The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless _families_ sleep outdoors.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> If my next door neighbor did such a thing, I would certainly do all I could to have her arrested.


In this particular woman's case, she met with all her neighbors before beginning this project. (This was in Roseville, Calif, btw, about 15-20 yrs ago I think) In fact, it was the neighbors who helped set the rules and the curfew (8pm, if I remember right) and who donated tents and blankets.

However, it's very likely one or more of her neighbors got spooked once the homeless people started taking up residence.


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless _families_ sleep outdoors.



I would bet the money went to layers of "experts" on homelessness.  Consultants, advocates, heads of non-profit groups.  If the homeless problem is ever solved, then these people have no jobs, and we wouldn't want that, would we?


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> In this particular woman's case, she met with all her neighbors before beginning this project. (This was in Roseville, Calif, btw, about 15-20 yrs ago I think) In fact, it was the neighbors who helped set the rules and the curfew (8pm, if I remember right) and who donated tents and blankets.
> 
> However, it's very likely one or more of her neighbors got spooked once the homeless people started taking up residence.



Well, 30 people could pitch tents on 4 acres of land without much difficulty.  Getting people to live within posted rules isn't easy, though.

I have a lot of empathy for homeless people.  I just want the problem addressed the right way.


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## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I would bet the money went to layers of "experts" on homelessness.  Consultants, advocates, heads of non-profit groups.  If the homeless problem is ever solved, then these people have no jobs, and we wouldn't want that, would we?


And the developers & construction co. The construction co is owned by one of our elected official's son-in-law. That elected official was not re-elected last term. So there's that.


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## Jeni (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Fixing this problem means spending money on supervised mental health facilities and serious drug and alcohol rehab programs. In some cases, it may mean providing purpose-built apartments for homeless people. This actually costs less than treating people for the multiple ER visits that accompany being homeless. It means changing NIMBY housing regulations to allow such housing to be built (repurposing old buildings can work)



It is like most issues the 900lb gorilla in the room is the person is the biggest part of getting any help....... 
rehab / AA / NA all good programs but just because a person attends does not mean they quit whatever substance ........ they have to want to and then stick with it......... many DUI folks are forced to attend programs but they sit there the hour or two once or twice a week get the person to sign their sheet and once over goes to a bar. 
My neighbor has a grandson that comes by every so often she tells me he is on the street again...... he went to rehab across the state had some success and held a job etc....... 
The moment he moved back and had been contacted by his old group ..........the 2 year programs paid by taxpayers was out the door and he lives in cars or the woods.      Some folks need to make a hard choice............... to begin again / cut off all contacts with those whom are part of the issue and move on.   Hang out with those making their way... not those who want you back on the street with them. 


Murrmurr said:


> The state of Cali recently (a year or 2 ago) allocated funds to homing the homeless. The state refurbished an abandoned apt complex to the tune of $6million... for 52 apartments. Where'd all that money go? None of those apartments has gold fixtures and computerized amenities. They're not furnished and don't have even one swimming pool. They're very basic apartments, and only 52 of them in a city where hundreds of homeless _families_ sleep outdoors.


it is big business doing anything with the government ..................many of these programs are so bloated and abused that it would be easier to just hand out money to the people on the street. 
6 million divided by 52 apartments equals just over 115,000 even if you divide by 12 like they pay a year worth of rent that would be $9,615.38 a month ..... the math shows the problem.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Well, 30 people could pitch tents on 4 acres of land without much difficulty.  Getting people to live within posted rules isn't easy, though.
> 
> I have a lot of empathy for homeless people.  I just want the problem addressed the right way.


I agree 100%

It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Funny sidebar.  I have a friend who is an expert in development and fundraising for non-profit groups.  He told me there was an explosion in the number of such groups after the 2009 financial crisis.  A lot of suddenly jobless executives figured they could set up a non-profit, solicit contributions and at least draw a salary.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.



I like your posts, you are a good example of what I call "menschkeit".


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

Jeni said:


> It is like most issues the 900lb gorilla in the room is the person is the biggest part of getting any help.......
> rehab / AA / NA all good programs but just because a person attends does not mean they quit whatever substance ........ they have to want to and then stick with it......... many DUI folks are forced to attend programs but they sit there the hour or two once or twice a week get the person to sign their sheet and once over goes to a bar.
> My neighbor has a grandson that comes by every so often she tells me he is on the street again...... he went to rehab across the state had some success and held a job etc.......
> The moment he moved back and had been contacted by his old group ..........the 2 year programs paid by taxpayers was out the door and he lives in cars or the woods.      Some folks need to make a hard choice............... to begin again / cut off all contacts with those whom are part of the issue and move on.   Hang out with those making their way... not those who want you back on the street with them.
> ...


State and county funded rehab is all but useless. The "counselors" are not professionals with degrees in social psychology or anything close to it. Most are former addicts. 

About 80% (nat'l average last I checked) of the people who are rehabilitated through state/county funded programs relapse within 6 weeks to 3 months. This is a complete waste of taxpayer's money. 

But you cannot convince taxpayers to pay higher taxes for more efficient services and programs, and you cannot keep state and local official's hands out of the cookie jar.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I like your posts, you are a good example of what I call "menschkeit".


Yiddish! Awesome!! lol


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> Yiddish! Awesome!! lol




Credit my son, who had the good sense to convert to Judaism so he could marry the nice Jewish girl he met at work.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> Credit my son, who had the good sense to convert to Judaism so he could marry the nice Jewish girl he met at work.


My grandfather was a tailor. 'Nuff said.


----------



## Irwin (Feb 4, 2021)

Murrmurr said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> It so happened that there were zero problems with the residents at this encampment. All was going quite well. But I think the woman got busted within 6 months or something, not very long after she opened it up, so not much of a measuring stick.


I did a search for the homeless camp you've been describing and couldn't find anything, but I would guess that the homeless people -- many of whom were drug addicts, alcoholics, and people with serious psychological issues -- didn't just sit around the camp quietly singing Kumbaya all day. They were probably wandering around the neighborhood panhandling, perhaps going into people's yards, perhaps even scaring children at the local schools.

I'm all for helping the homeless, but the residents in that area have a right to live in peace and without fear.


----------



## Murrmurr (Feb 4, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I did a search for the homeless camp you've been describing and couldn't find anything, but I would guess that the homeless people -- many of whom were drug addicts, alcoholics, and people with serious psychological issues -- didn't just sit around the camp quietly singing Kumbaya all day. They were probably wandering around the neighborhood panhandling, perhaps going into people's yards, perhaps even scaring children at the local schools.
> 
> I'm all for helping the homeless, but the residents in that area have a right to live in peace and without fear.


Irwin, I'll try to find something online, the actual newspaper article or something, and will post the link if I find it. It could have been the neighboring city of Rocklin, but I'm almost certain it was Roseville. There were pictures along with the article I read, and it looked pretty much like a big ol' Kumbaya....pictures of the woman ladling up some soup, several people lined up with bowl in hand, everyone smiling...but they were taken very soon after the place got started. Probably appeared in the Roseville Press Tribune, but I'm not sure at all.

Anyway, I'll see what I can find.


----------



## Pepper (Feb 4, 2021)

I don't think a whole apartment is necessary except for a family.  NYC used to have tons of what we called SROs--single room occupancy.  It was enough then, why not try those now?  Just a room with a lock on the door, shared facilities, etc.  Not the best, but something cheap that is yours alone.


----------



## Remy (Feb 4, 2021)

Wow @mellowyellow, those spike things look just evil. 

Homelessness is so complicated. There are the mentally ill and people just priced out of a home. Rents and properties have gone up in my area due to California wild fires wiping out so many homes. While there is a cap on rent increases yearly they will still go up and home prices have gone up a lot. There are some people for whatever reason can't hold a job. Perhaps some of the extreme personality disorders fall into this. I'm not sure.

I wish more affordable homes could be built. Small homes, people can afford. If they are smaller homes, condos. I love tiny houses. I'm not talking about 100 square feet. But you get  to 350-400 and more, and that space can be completely livable. I think tiny house is defined as less than 500, some say 600. But people have been fed the mcmansion scenario. Need a room for everything. No you don't. 

I see non of this going up in my area. Just expensive new apartments to rent and more houses to buy. Nothing for a working person not making a ton of money to buy. I don't see this changing.


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 4, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> I'm all for helping the homeless, but there are some of them out there that just don't want to be helped.
> 
> Especially , if it involves getting a job, and getting back in to society.
> 
> jmo


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 4, 2021)

dobielvr said:


> I'm all for helping the homeless, but there are some of them out there that just don't want to be helped.
> 
> Especially , if it involves getting a job, and getting back in to society.
> 
> jmo


They can't all be drug addicts and alcoholics dobielvr, there are some very good people out there who have just run out of luck.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> If my next door neighbor did such a thing, I would certainly do all I could to have her arrested.


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 4, 2021)

Can I just say that I am thankful for a good roof over my head, a warm place to eat and sleep, and food on the table.  Thank you God.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.
> 
> Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems.  Or both.  Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)
> 
> ...


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 4, 2021)

izzy said:


>





JimBob1952 said:


> I think the biggest problem with homelessness is the refusal to look the problem squarely in the eye.
> 
> Most homeless people are either mentally ill or have severe substance abuse problems.  Or both.  Fixing the problem doesn't mean making the streets nicer for them to sleep on, or handing out meals and blankets (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with handing out meals and blankets, but it's a band-aid.)
> 
> ...


  Hmm, my glasses are anything but rose coloured. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if appropriate help was always available? It isn’t. Until then, I will err on the side of compassion. If that includes “bandaids” of food, blankets,  etc, so be it. I 

have personally experienced what the streets had to offer. Sadly, not a great deal has changed. I am a realist, I work in the trenches,  giving something is better than nothing at all.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

Not everybody is dealt the same cards in life, has the same emotional and financial support from friends and family and call me an idealist but everybody should have somewhere safe and warm to sleep.  Never acceptable for even one person to be sleeping on the streets when there is lots of homes (investment properties) just sitting empty.


----------



## horseless carriage (Feb 4, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm, my glasses are anything but rose coloured. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if appropriate help was always available? It isn’t. Until then, I will err on the side of compassion. If that includes “bandaids” of food, blankets,  etc, so be it. I
> 
> have personally experienced what the streets had to offer. Sadly, not a great deal has changed. I am a realist, I work in the trenches,  giving something is better than nothing at all.


Shalimar, you and JimBob are both right. What you know is what you have experienced, JimBob, like many of us, assumes that we are intelligent enough to know when we are sinking into the abyss. Many do not, but JimBob will have sympathetic supporters because like every other difficulty, illness or addiction in life, there will be those that purport to suffer from such. They do not of course but they do milk both the system and the human kindness of those moved to help them, thus calling into question of not only their own charlatan motives but also those of genuine need.


----------



## Gary O' (Feb 4, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Wouldn’t it be wonderful if appropriate help was always available? It isn’t. Until then, I will err on the side of compassion. If that includes “bandaids” of food, blankets, etc, so be it.





Shalimar said:


> I have personally experienced what the streets had to offer. Sadly, not a great deal has changed. I am a realist, I work in the trenches, giving something is better than nothing at all.


Truth

It is a band aid 
But
It's help.....*NOW*


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Shalimar, you and JimBob are both right. What you know is what you have experienced, JimBob, like many of us, assumes that we are intelligent enough to know when we are sinking into the abyss. Many do not, but JimBob will have sympathetic supporters because like every other difficulty, illness or addiction in life, there will be those that purport to suffer from such. They do not of course but they do milk both the system and the human kindness of those moved to help them, thus calling into question of not only their own charlatan motives but also those of genuine need.


Wow


horseless carriage said:


> Shalimar, you and JimBob are both right. What you know is what you have experienced, JimBob, like many of us, assumes that we are intelligent enough to know when we are sinking into the abyss. Many do not, but JimBob will have sympathetic supporters because like every other difficulty, illness or addiction in life, there will be those that purport to suffer from such. They do not of course but they do milk both the system and the human kindness of those moved to help them, thus calling into question of not only their own charlatan motives but also those of genuine need.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 4, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Shalimar, you and JimBob are both right. What you know is what you have experienced, JimBob, like many of us, assumes that we are intelligent enough to know when we are sinking into the abyss. Many do not, but JimBob will have sympathetic supporters because like every other difficulty, illness or addiction in life, there will be those that purport to suffer from such. They do not of course but they do milk both the system and the human kindness of those moved to help them, thus calling into question of not only their own charlatan motives but also those of genuine need.


  There will always be charlatans. I have run across such in my career. As to my experience with homelessness,  most of that relates to the many clients I have supported through the years who were or had been homeless. With respect, 

in my opinion, intelligence is not always a reliable factor in preventing one‘s slide into the abyss. Life can smack you into a spiral. No one  is exempt if the circumstances are right.


----------



## horseless carriage (Feb 4, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> There will always be charlatans. I have run across such in my career. As to my experience with homelessness,  most of that relates to the many clients I have supported through the years who were or had been homeless. With respect,
> 
> in my opinion, intelligence is not always a reliable factor in preventing one‘s slide into the abyss. Life can smack you into a spiral. No one  is exempt if the circumstances are right.


Truly, I bow to your personal experience and as such, would never be intentionally, judgemental.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Truly, I bow to your personal experience and as such, would never be intentionally, judgemental.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)




----------



## Shalimar (Feb 4, 2021)

horseless carriage said:


> Truly, I bow to your personal experience and as such, would never be intentionally, judgemental.


What a gracious and elegant response. You, sir, are a true gentleman.


----------



## izzy (Feb 4, 2021)

.


----------



## dobielvr (Feb 4, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> They can't all be drug addicts and alcoholics dobielvr, there are some very good people out there who have just run out of luck.


Oh, I know.
And, sorry if that's what my post sounded like.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 5, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Hmm, my glasses are anything but rose coloured. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if appropriate help was always available? It isn’t. Until then, I will err on the side of compassion. If that includes “bandaids” of food, blankets,  etc, so be it. I
> 
> have personally experienced what the streets had to offer. Sadly, not a great deal has changed. I am a realist, I work in the trenches,  giving something is better than nothing at all.





Shalimar said:


> Hmm, my glasses are anything but rose coloured. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if appropriate help was always available? It isn’t. Until then, I will err on the side of compassion. If that includes “bandaids” of food, blankets,  etc, so be it. I
> 
> have personally experienced what the streets had to offer. Sadly, not a great deal has changed. I am a realist, I work in the trenches,  giving something is better than nothing at all.






izzy said:


> Not everybody is dealt the same cards in life, has the same emotional and financial support from friends and family and call me an idealist but everybody should have somewhere safe and warm to sleep.  Never acceptable for even one person to be sleeping on the streets when there is lots of homes (investment properties) just sitting empty.




So, you're saying that if I own an unrented investment property, a homeless person has a right to sleep there?   Sorry, life doesn't work that way.  

I know lots of liberals.  I've never known a single one who let a homeless person sleep in his or her house, even for a night.


----------



## Jeni (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> So, you're saying that if I own an unrented investment property, a homeless person has a right to sleep there?   Sorry, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> I know lots of liberals.  I've never known a single one who let a homeless person sleep in his or her house, even for a night.


I will say this the reality is in the details....... if someone owned a vacant investment property there is huge liability and compassion is not a defense when a person is sued for an injury etc......
This is also why many places.... put up things like those stones in OP picture because under an overpass is NOT safe...........and places discourage people from camping there for liability reasons ...........

 if you wanted to convert to some shelter the cost is enormous to meet all required codes/ zoning/ liability issues abound and then those neighbors around property may not like that use........

I  do not understand those who say things like "some people have 2 houses they should  just give one to a homeless person"  or something along those lines...........
 I am sure if they had a person they knew who was trustworthy they may put them up.   

What would they need to do if they were to give any property away..... is  #1 get it out of their name because they would be a sitting duck for lawsuits.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> So, you're saying that if I own an unrented investment property, a homeless person has a right to sleep there?   Sorry, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> I know lots of liberals.  I've never known a single one who let a homeless person sleep in his or her house, even for a night.


Then this is your lucky day. I am your first. Lol. A year and a half ago I welcomed a homeless mother and her two small sons into my summer home at the lake. They were great people, down on their luck. I set down some basic

rules, they were kept to the letter. This lady helped with the house, yard work, painting, garden, all without being asked. She stayed with me until she was able to save up enough money to rent a place, etc. How did she do it? Sewing, crafts,

making quilts to order. I  lent  her the money to set up shop on Etsy. She is now totally self supporting. Yes, she repaid my loan, with interest. I didn’t want the interest, but her pride required it.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 5, 2021)

[/QUOTE]





Jeni said:


> I will say this the reality is in the details....... if someone owned a vacant investment property there is huge liability and compassion is not a defense when a person is sued for an injury etc......
> This is also why many places.... put up things like those stones in OP picture because under an overpass is NOT safe...........and places discourage people from camping there for liability reasons ...........
> 
> if you wanted to convert to some shelter the cost is enormous to meet all required codes/ zoning/ liability issues abound and then those neighbors around property may not like that use........
> ...





Shalimar said:


> Then this is your lucky day. I am your first. Lol. A year and a half ago I welcomed a homeless mother and her two small sons into my summer home at the lake. They were great people, down on their luck. I set down some basic
> 
> rules, they were kept to the letter. This lady helped with the house, yard work, painting, garden, all without being asked. She stayed with me until she was able to save up enough money to rent a place, etc. How did she do it? Sewing, crafts,
> 
> ...




Good for you.  I'm sure you're a compassionate person.  I wasn't responding to your post btw but to a post from "Izzy."


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 5, 2021)

She expressed her appreciation by sending me a beautiful handmade queen size quilt and two matching pillow shams, all in the beautiful star pattern, two round crocheted mandala pattern rugs, and a pair of the most beautiful macrame curtains I have ever seen. These presents arrived just before Xmas.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


>





Good for you.  I'm sure you're a compassionate person.  I wasn't responding to your post btw but to a post from "Izzy."
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, very kind of you to say so. I did realise you were referencing something Izzy said re vacant property. I deleted that part of my post, but not soon enough.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Feb 5, 2021)

I hope people don't misunderstand me.  Giving food, blankets and comfort to people who are down on their luck is wonderful.  I'm just trying to make the point that permanent problems (mental illness and substance abuse) need permanent solutions.


----------



## Shalimar (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> I hope people don't misunderstand me.  Giving food, blankets and comfort to people who are down on their luck is wonderful.  I'm just trying to make the point that permanent problems (mental illness and substance abuse) need permanent solutions.


Thank you for clarifying that. I do know you are a kind person. You are a Guardian Angel to a very vulnerable lady. Big props for that, my friend.


----------



## izzy (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


>





Good for you.  I'm sure you're a compassionate person.  I wasn't responding to your post btw but to a post from "Izzy."
[/QUOTE]
The point I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that our society shows little understanding, empathy or compassion to fellow human beings.  Yes simplistic though my opinion might be but I still stand by the FACT that it's appalling for anyone not to have somewhere safe and warm to sleep when there are others who have more than they could ever use or need but still hold on to it rather than give it away.  To much greed and selfishness in the world.  Just my opinion


----------



## izzy (Feb 5, 2021)

JimBob1952 said:


> So, you're saying that if I own an unrented investment property, a homeless person has a right to sleep there?   Sorry, life doesn't work that way.
> 
> I know lots of liberals.  I've never known a single one who let a homeless person sleep in his or her house, even for a night.


----------



## izzy (Feb 5, 2021)




----------



## OneEyedDiva (Feb 5, 2021)

I agree with @Aunt Marg but tackling homelessness is a complicated issue. Each city and state has it's own rulings. Not enough shelters are available. Some of the homeless actually prefer to stay homeless. One of my step sons was homeless in Baltimore. He was handsome and a few women offered him a place to stay but often he lived on the streets. My husband used to try to help whoever he could and he told me stories of people who didn't want to go to shelters because of the restrictions. Once someone close to me chose to live in her car (without my knowledge) and she and her children very well could have stayed with me. People are afraid of the homeless because some are mentally ill and some can be dangerous. And people don't want shelters built in their neighborhoods.

I read a story about a tent city in N.J. where homeless people set up not only tents but built a tiny wooded "church" in a park.  The city came in and tore that down and chased them out. One of the couples was interviewed. They had been successful and even well off but the husband's medical bills wiped them out. Apparently others there had also been productive citizens who fell on hard time. I felt bad when I read that story. Thereby but the grace of God go I.


----------



## Irwin (Feb 5, 2021)

Check this out. It's a "homeless" camp called Community First! Village just outside of Austin, TX.




https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/iyw-town-for-the-homeless-trnd/index.html

They're expanding it to another 40 acres.

The average age is 58 and most people there have been homeless for over 10 years. They do have to pay rent, though, which starts at $230 a month, and it's Christian-centric. I assume they allow other religions.

Here's a video:





They try to get people there to form healthy relationships, so loners may be out of luck.


----------



## izzy (Feb 5, 2021)

Sounds and looks very positive and as long as its not compulsory to be a Christian to be a resident its a good thing.


----------



## mellowyellow (Feb 6, 2021)

I guess we have to be realistic. We all care about our quality of life, my street is quiet and gardens are well maintained, there is only the sound of pigeons cooing and the occasional lawn mower shattering the peace.  So if someone moved in next door and turned the property into a sanctuary for the homeless, with no toilet facilities or garbage removal, I’d be pretty ticked off.  So I could find myself on the other side.


----------



## rgp (Feb 6, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Check this out. It's a "homeless" camp called Community First! Village just outside of Austin, TX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I have no need for living there, but I believe I could live there comfortably . Someone did a nice job. Kudo's to them. I would need [if available] my own bathroom .


----------



## izzy (Feb 6, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> I guess we have to be realistic. We all care about our quality of life, my street is quiet and gardens are well maintained, there is only the sound of pigeons cooing and the occasional lawn mower shattering the peace.  So if someone moved in next door and turned the property into a sanctuary for the homeless, with no toilet facilities or garbage removal, I’d be pretty ticked off.  So I could find myself on the other side.


I may be wrong but I believe there are toilet and garbage removal facilities.  Guess the saying I'm alright Jack springs to mind ! British saying but you can google it if your not familiar.  Thought for the day imagine being the person who had no toilet or garbage facilities, think being "ticked off" would not even come close to how it would make you feel as a human being.


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 8, 2021)

Irwin said:


> Check this out. It's a "homeless" camp called Community First! Village just outside of Austin, TX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







There are about a dozen abandoned military bases all throughout the USA. Each can readily be sold or given to churches such as Salvation Army or Catholic Charities, rehabbed, and then converted to viable homes for the homeless. Same with the many abandoned urban factories and schools.


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 8, 2021)

Here's the thing.  One hard and fast rule of human nature is that you will get more of anything that you reward.  If you reward homelessness with free housing, you will get more homeless.


----------



## asp3 (Feb 8, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Here's the thing.  One hard and fast rule of human nature is that you will get more of anything that you reward.  If you reward homelessness with free housing, you will get more homeless.



This has been shown not to be true.  There are multiple instances of locations that gave the homeless housing, reduced the costs associated with them and increased the number of homeless who were able to transition from being homeless to being able to work and pay for their own housing.


----------



## Buckeye (Feb 8, 2021)

asp3 said:


> This has been shown not to be true.  There are multiple instances of locations that gave the homeless housing, reduced the costs associated with them and increased the number of homeless who were able to transition from being homeless to being able to work and pay for their own housing.


Sorry but we keep doing more for the homeless yet the # of homeless continues to grow.  Cherry picking a couple of data  points doesn't change human nature.  The following from a Wiki article on homelessnes:

_In New York City, the number of homeless people using nightly shelter services has tripled from approximately 20,000 to more than 60,000 between January 2000 and January 2015.[63] In 2016, homelessness is considered an epidemic in several U.S. cities. "Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and seven of the 15 City Council members announced they would declare a state of emergency and try to find $100 million to cure what has become a municipal curse."[64]_

_In September 2018, in MARTIN V. CITY OF BOISE, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that the city's Camping and Disorderly Conduct Ordinances violated the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. Cities can't punish homeless people for sleeping in public when the homeless shelters are full.[65]

During the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States, mass job loss and unemployment led to fears of mass evictions as tenants became unable to pay rent.__[66]_


----------



## oldiebutgoody (Feb 8, 2021)

asp3 said:


> This has been shown not to be true.  There are multiple instances of locations that gave the homeless housing, reduced the costs associated with them and increased the number of homeless who were able to transition from being homeless to being able to work and pay for their own housing.




The example of Levittown, NY proves your point especially when it came to homeless or returning veterans.


----------



## Lara (Feb 8, 2021)

mellowyellow said:


> _In Brazil, Priest Julio Lancellotti breaking stones put under a bridge to prevent homeless people from sleeping._
> 
> This wonderful man is trying to help while we sit idly by and watch how the cities of the world thinks up new ways to prevent the homeless from cluttering up the sidewalks.  I know there is nothing we can do personally, but the way we (the lucky ones) turn a blind eye and pretend it isn't happening doesn't seem right.  What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 147679


I know I have a lot of nerve coming in here for the first time after 92 posts and upsetting the applecart but does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? ...click on the blue attachment in the quote

I say all this in a sort of tongue-'n-cheek way because what do I know? If it's really about courage and kindness then I'd be a jerk.
...but the story headline says his name is Priest Julio Lancellotti...BUT...his doctor's coat says "Dr. Gheffond Diagnostics". Ok, so I know many hospitals have Chapels with a Priest and a Pastor on staff but the names don't even match. Maybe someone really did loan him their washed and pressed hospital coat for this filthy job?

Okay moving on, the next thing is that the initial installation must have been extremely expensive for the state (pouring a huge slab of concrete, chiseling heavy squared off stones, especially that many, and setting them in the wet concrete). So obviously they're going to be ticked off and have him arrested, no? Btw, did they hire the homeless to do that and pay them? And don't they know the homeless will simply move on down the street?

One more thing. Does the "good samaritan" seriously think he wont get caught with his name and department on his coat, clearly visible, and then stand in front of the media's camera while digging up this expensive massive undertaking by the state?

But what do I know *shrugs*. I know I'm missing the point. It's really a nice discussion about the homeless problem. Carrry-on and just ignore me...it's one of those kinda days


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## asp3 (Feb 8, 2021)

Buckeye said:


> Sorry but we keep doing more for the homeless yet the # of homeless continues to grow.  Cherry picking a couple of data  points doesn't change human nature.  The following from a Wiki article on homelessnes:
> 
> _In New York City, the number of homeless people using nightly shelter services has tripled from approximately 20,000 to more than 60,000 between January 2000 and January 2015.[63] In 2016, homelessness is considered an epidemic in several U.S. cities. "Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti and seven of the 15 City Council members announced they would declare a state of emergency and try to find $100 million to cure what has become a municipal curse."[64]_
> 
> ...



As far as I know NYC was not one of the places that implemented the programs I was talking about.  So you can't site an increase in one area to say that the programs aren't working in another area.

The programs are a tough sell to both politicians and their constituents because they see them as "giving something away for free" even when they end up saving more money than they cost.

In addition these programs are for helping people who are already homeless not aimed at preventing from people from becoming homeless.  As I stated in one of my earlier postings in this thread.  I don't think homelessness is the problem it's the symptom of other problems.

We are in unique times now, so I do expect Covid related homelessness to increase over the next few months.


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## gennie (Feb 8, 2021)

izzy said:


> Good for you.  I'm sure you're a compassionate person.  I wasn't responding to your post btw but to a post from "Izzy."


The point I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that our society shows little understanding, empathy or compassion to fellow human beings.  Yes simplistic though my opinion might be but I still stand by the FACT that it's appalling for anyone not to have somewhere safe and warm to sleep when there are others who have more than they could ever use or need but still hold on to it rather than give it away.  To much greed and selfishness in the world.  Just my opinion 
[/QUOTE]

Makes a lot of sense but your solution will never fly because it is a socialistic endeavor and Socialism is a nasty word in today's America.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

My opinion of homelessness and hungry in our country (Canada)... instead of sending hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to other countries, take care of your own people first.

Charity begins at home.


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## JimBob1952 (Feb 8, 2021)

Shalimar said:


> Thank you for clarifying that. I do know you are a kind person. You are a Guardian Angel to a very vulnerable lady. Big props for that, my friend.





gennie said:


> The point I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that our society shows little understanding, empathy or compassion to fellow human beings.  Yes simplistic though my opinion might be but I still stand by the FACT that it's appalling for anyone not to have somewhere safe and warm to sleep when there are others who have more than they could ever use or need but still hold on to it rather than give it away.  To much greed and selfishness in the world.  Just my opinion



Makes a lot of sense but your solution will never fly because it is a socialistic endeavor and Socialism is a nasty word in today's America.
[/QUOTE]

Right, socialism will fix everything.


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## Lara (Feb 8, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> My opinion of homelessness and hungry in our country (Canada)... instead of sending hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to other countries, take care of your own people first.
> 
> Charity begins at home.


I hear you Marge. We've got American Veterans that are homeless cold and hungry on the streets and yet our government is sending aid to oil rich countries in the Middle East.

As of Jan 1, 2021
"There are over *630,000 homeless* people in America. *67,495* are veterans. It amazes me that in today's society, over 1 in *10 homeless* people in America are veterans."
Source: themilitarywallet.com


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> I hear you Marge. We've got American Veterans that are homeless cold and hungry on the streets and yet our government is sending aid to oil rich countries in the Middle East.


Nothing chaps by bottom worse, Lara, and nothing is more sad.

Boy, are those ever staggering numbers.


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## mellowyellow (Feb 8, 2021)

Lara said:


> I know I have a lot of nerve coming in here for the first time after 92 posts and upsetting the applecart but does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? ...click on the blue attachment in the quote
> 
> I say all this in a sort of tongue-'n-cheek way because what do I know? If it's really about courage and kindness then I'd be a jerk.
> ...but the story headline says his name is Priest Julio Lancellotti...BUT...his doctor's coat says "Dr. Gheffond Diagnostics". Ok, so I know many hospitals have Chapels with a Priest and a Pastor on staff but the names don't even match. Maybe someone really did loan him their washed and pressed hospital coat for this filthy job?
> ...


Monsignor Júlio Renato Lancellotti is a Brazilian Catholic educator and priest, Monsignor and parish priest of the São Miguel Arcanjo Church in the Mooca neighborhood, in the city of São Paulo.
_
…….The stones used as a torture bed for the poor, which Father Júlio Lancellotti destroyed in São Paulo, are also part of what they define as a public good.

Maricots and stones play a role in the fascist state, even if often in disguise. For this reason, Father Lancellotti could be prosecuted for the destruction of a city's heritage…………_

https://www.blogdomoisesmendes.com.br/a-marreta-do-padre-lancellotti/


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## Lara (Feb 9, 2021)

Thank you for your clarification mellowyellow. My post was really tongue in cheek but then again I did take that photo to task. Guess I could use some of your "mellow yellow"

I just felt like taking a different road yesterday...it was one of those kinda'days. Thank you for your thread. Very interesting info you posted and has brought on a lot of great posts from the members here


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## mellowyellow (Feb 9, 2021)

Lara said:


> Thank you for your clarification mellowyellow. My post was really tongue in cheek but then again I did take that photo to task. Guess I could use some of your "mellow yellow"
> 
> I just felt like taking a different road yesterday...it was one of those kinda'days. Thank you for your thread. Very interesting info you posted and has brought on a lot of great posts from the members here


No worries Lara


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