# Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype'



## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...change-name-remove-image-quaker-says-n1231260

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/uncle-ben-s-change-its-branding-part-parent-company-s-n1231329
Uncle Ben's rice to change brand as part of parent company's stance against racism.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ging-ensure-it-doesn-t-inadvertently-n1231407

Cream of Wheat becomes the next brand to re-examine its packagingMakers of breakfast porridge Cream of Wheat said they're conducting "an immediate review" of the brand's packaging, which features a smiling Black chef.

(Wow didn't see this coming but here it is.....I'll miss seeing her pretty face with lots of good childhood memories when preparing those pancakes.....Uncle Ben's too!......wondering if the brand names will change too)


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm confused about this because I felt those faces were celebrating where the products came from , and from whom.. rather than anything derogatory. If they replace the faces with white, is that going to be discriminatory too, I wonder..


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

If I'm correct Holly, it depicts people of color as the maid, cook, chef, etc. and maybe even slaves....wonder if Betty Crocker's pic will be removed too even tho she's depicted as the owner of the company.


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## Liberty (Jun 18, 2020)

Companies frequently change "identity" boxes or colors or sizes when they see sales declining.  This move is probably a marketing move to more align themselves with current events and draw more attention and therefore sales to their products.  My guess the Aunt J brand probably had been declining for years.  Uncle Ben's is a "pricey" rice product.  Probably get a more sleek look to attract upscale buyers.


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## Keesha (Jun 18, 2020)

And many companies are changing images to keep up with the times. As humanity evolves, so do they to reflect the acknowledgment


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

Liberty said:


> Companies frequently change "identity" boxes or colors or sizes when they see sales declining.  This move is probably a marketing move to more align themselves with current events and draw more attention and therefore sales to their products.  My guess the Aunt J brand probably had been declining for years.  Uncle Ben's is a "pricey" rice product.  Probably get a more sleek look to attract upscale buyers.


I agree....when working in retail sales, the packaging look got changed so much that nobody knew what they were looking for unless we read the product label....was very frustrating....all because the 'new look' attracted more customers to seek out what they would think was a newer and better product than they were using.


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## ronaldj (Jun 18, 2020)

i read  she (the lady the image is of) was a freed slave and sold her recipe to company and when she died in 1923 she was the first black woman millionaire


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## JaniceM (Jun 18, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> I agree....when working in retail sales, the packaging look got changed so much that nobody knew what they were looking for unless we read the product label....was very frustrating....all because the 'new look' attracted more customers to seek out what they would think was a newer and better product than they were using.


And it was the same thing.. but possibly with a higher price?


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> If I'm correct Holly, it depicts people of color as the maid, cook, chef, etc. and maybe even slaves....wonder if Betty Crocker's pic will be removed too even tho she's depicted as the owner of the company.


I feel that if they remove those faces then they will have to remove every white  chef  or inventor or Asian  face from all cooking products ..no Gordon ramsey, No delia Smith .. no Ken Holm..No Martha Stuart., .....I'm sure those people wouldn't feel discriminated against by having their faces promoting their foods...  but what's good for the Goose, has to be good for the gander, otherwise..it's absolutely without doubt reverse discrimination .  ..and if it doesn't happen should we have protest about White lives mattering ?...


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## Pepper (Jun 18, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> ..no Gordon ramsey, No deliah Smith .. no Ken Holm..No Martha Stuart., .....I'm sure those people wouldn't feel discriminated against by having their faces promoting their foods...



No, their faces would still be on their own personal products.  They are real people, not generic.


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## JustBonee (Jun 18, 2020)

Along with the food products  ....  have you seen the new  Band-Aid  brand  bandages?


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## applecruncher (Jun 18, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I feel that if they remove those faces then they will have to remove every white  chef  or inventor or Asian  face from all cooking products ..no Gordon ramsey, No deliah Smith .. no Ken Holm..No Martha Stuart., .....I'm sure those people wouldn't feel discriminated against by having their faces promoting their foods...  but what's good for the Goose, has to be good for the gander, otherwise..it's absolutely without doubt reverse discrimination .  ..and if it doesn't happen should we have protest about White lives mattering ?...


You need to research reverse discrimination and find out what it is because clearly you don't have a clue. 
Your comment about protesting that white lives matter is silly and redundant.   Your goose/gander comment makes no sense and isn't funny. To ridicule and minimize the issue of racism the way you have done in this thread is inappropriate, at best.


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> If I'm correct Holly, it depicts people of color as the maid, cook, chef, etc. and maybe even slaves....wonder if Betty Crocker's pic will be removed too even tho she's depicted as the owner of the company.


is uncle ben the  chef ?


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## twinkles (Jun 18, 2020)

they better not take chef boy r dee off my spaghettos


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## win231 (Jun 18, 2020)

I was reminded of a hilarious "Jeffersons" episode.
George was constantly complaining that their maid (Florence) didn't do any work.
After yelling at her, she showed up in a maid uniform that made her look like a slave.
When George saw her, he asked, "What the hell is that?"
She replied, (sounding like an obedient slave)  "This is my new maid'n uniform."
George asked, "Why?  Are we having pancakes for dinner?"


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

Generations after us would have no idea that AJ and UB might have been slaves.  I didn't think they were either!

    To me, their names and faces stood for the best in long grain rice, pancake mix, etc. They knew best. I don't have a clue either. I want these people to stay. Taking them away seems just unnecessary.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 18, 2020)

IMO these changes are little more than marketing tactics.

I don't have a problem with the changes I just question the recent concern and sincerity against the publicity value.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

The fictional Betty Crocker also started off as a regular housewife waiting on and cooking fo,r her family. I wasn't aware she'd evolved into a CEO.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I just question the recent concern and sincerity as opposed to the publicity value.


.....as do I. Anything for a buck when dealing with potential consumers.


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> is uncle ben the  chef ?


Don't think so....Uncle Ben's was named after a Black domestic servant according to BusinessInsider https://www.businessinsider.com/15-racist-brand-mascots-and-logos-2014-6

Also this: In the late 1800s, the Missouri newspaper editor Chris L. Rutt decided to name his brand of self-rising flour after "Aunt Jemima," a song performed by minstrel actors. A former slave named Nancy Green was later hired to portray Aunt Jemima as a "mammy," a racist caricature that depicts female slaves as smiling, happy homemakers for white families.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

The Cream of Wheat man is a chef.


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> The fictional Betty Crocker also started off as a regular housewife waiting on and cooking fo,r her family. I wasn't aware she'd evolved into a CEO.


My bad....General Mills sponsors this product....


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

And the Mars Corp sponsors Uncle Ben's Rice.....Quaker Oats for the Aunt Jemima products.....

for Creme of Wheat: The product made its debut at the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois. Before January 2007, Cream of Wheat was a Nabisco brand made by Kraft Foods. In January 2007, *B&G Foods* acquired the brand and all rights to market the cereal. "Cream of Wheat" is a registered trademark.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 18, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> is uncle ben the  chef ?


According to Mars, Uncle Ben was an African-American rice grower known for the quality of his rice. Gordon L. Harwell, an entrepreneur who had supplied rice to the armed forces in World War II.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 18, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Along with the food products  ....  have you seen the new  Band-Aid  brand  bandages?


Bonnie I hadn't see these but this picture brought back memories of when I was a child and "flesh colored" crayons were always the color of the bandaid on the far left. Even as a child, I always thought that was strange because flesh comes in a variety of colors.


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## Been There (Jun 18, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> You need to research reverse discrimination and find out what it is because clearly you don't have a clue.
> Your comment about protesting that white lives matter is silly and redundant.   Your goose/gander comment makes no sense and isn't funny. To ridicule and minimize the issue of racism the way you have done in this thread is inappropriate, at best.


AC: I think reverse discrimination is defined and treated differently in the U.K. than it is here in the U.S. I don’t intend to speak for HD, but rather than start a whole thread about this, maybe we should clear up this part.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 18, 2020)

Land of Lakes decided to remove the Native American maiden from their packaging after Native Americans cited it as racist.
https://www.twincities.com/2020/04/...-packaging-does-away-with-indian-maiden-logo/


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> According to Mars, Uncle Ben was an African-American rice grower known for the quality of his rice. Gordon L. Harwell, an entrepreneur who had supplied rice to the armed forces in World War II.


Uncle Ben's, a rice and grains company, adopted its brand name and logo in 1946. According to the company's website, the name "Uncle Ben" is that of a Black Texan rice farmer and the image is of a Black Chicago chef and waiter named Frank Brown.

Uncle Ben has a "contentious history," Stuart Elliott wrote in a 2007 New York Times piece recently cited by Delish. "White Southerners once used 'uncle' and 'aunt' as honorifics for older blacks because they refused to say 'Mr.' and 'Mrs.,'" he said.

On Wednesday, Uncle Ben's parent company Mars announced that it will be "evolving" the branding.

"As we listen to the voices of consumers, especially in the Black community, and to the voices of our Associates worldwide, we recognize that now is the right time to evolve the Uncle Ben's brand, including its visual brand identity, which we will do," they said in a statement.

_Source: Delish, Uncle Ben's, The New York Times_


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

Thank you those of you for your explanations of who is  who,... it's always very interesting to me to see just how things differ or are similar to here in the Uk from the USA


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

Here's another one ~ It just goes on and on......

*Mrs. Butterworth's *

Syrup and pancake-mix company Mrs. Butterworth's adopted the personality of "Mrs. Butterworth" in 1961.

For years, the shape of Mrs. Butterworth's syrup bottles has been a point of contention. "Critics have long associated the shape of the Mrs. Butterworth's bottle with the mammy, a caricature of black women as subservient to white people," Maria Cramer wrote.

Conagra Brands, the parent company of Mrs. Butterworth's syrup and pancake mixes, has also released a statement saying that they have started a review of the brand and packaging.

"The Mrs. Butterworth's brand, including its syrup packaging, is intended to evoke the images of a loving grandmother. We stand in solidarity with our Black and Brown communities and we can see that our packaging may be interpreted in a way that is wholly inconsistent with our values," they said.

https://www.businessinsider.com/15-...d-logos-2014-6#mrs-butterworth-1961-present-2


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

And another ~ Think I heard about this is the not-too-distant past....

* The NFL's Washington Redskins *

In 2014, the US Patent and Trademark Office canceled six trademarks belonging to the Washington Redskins, including the team's old logo, after finding the name disparaged Native Americans. The word "redskin" is a racist slang term for America's indigenous people. 

The Washington Redskins were founded in 1932 as the Boston Braves. The team changed its name to the Redskins in 1933. 

The team's owners and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell have defended the use of the word and the logo, which depicts a Native American. In the wake of PepsiCo's decision to rename its Aunt Jemima products, however, more are calling for change for the football team. 

_Source: Business Insider, The Guardian, The Washington Post_


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> The Cream of Wheat man is a chef.


Since the 1880s, Rastus has been widely considered a pejorative term associated with black men. Through advertisements from the first part of the 20th century, the smiling chef is depicted as childlike and uneducated.
Cream of Wheat took Rastus off the box in 1925 in favor of a portrait of Frank L. White, a Chicago chef who remains on the box to this day (pictured above).
On Wednesday, B&G Foods, the parent company of Cream of Wheat, issued a statement announcing its plans to conduct an immediate review of the brand's packaging.
"We understand there are concerns regarding the Chef image, and we are committed to evaluating our packaging and will proactively take steps to ensure that we and our brands do not inadvertently contribute to systemic racism. B&G Foods unequivocally stands against prejudice and injustice of any kind," they said.
_Source: The Jim Crow Museum Of Racist Memorabilia, Adweek, Business Wire_


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

*Company: Chiquita*

Originally a sexy banana, the mascot is now a sexy banana seller. She wears a Carmen-Miranda-esque fruit hat that gives an exotic and idealized image of the tropics.

(What's she gonna become after the feminists protest her sexy slinky look? hmmm)


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## PopsnTuff (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm on a roll here; can't stop myself 



*Company: Cadbury Pascall*
The ice cream treat named for a North American tribe became the subject of controversy in 2009 when a Canadian Inuit woman said the product name insulted her heritage.
A slow-moving and largely unpublicized battle in North America's northland has quietly raged on against the use of the word "Eskimo" to describe people with Inuit heritage.
But "Eskimo" is so ingrained that even the occasional blasts of bad publicity have failed to persuade manufacturer Cadbury Pascall to consider a new name.
_Source: The Toronto Star_


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

These companies are scared to death.
Get rid of him too..  crazy white man going around shooting guns.







and him-




stereotyping Italians as eating nothing but spaghetti.


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## LindaB (Jun 18, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...change-name-remove-image-quaker-says-n1231260
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/uncle-ben-s-change-its-branding-part-parent-company-s-n1231329
> Uncle Ben's rice to change brand as part of parent company's stance against racism.
> ...


This is taking things just a little too far. For those of us who aren't racists, it never crossed our minds as to being racist symbols. I know I never thought of it that way. I grew up with Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, with never a thought about the color of their skin or what their station was in life. 
Some of these things are really ridiculous. I couldn't believe it when they changed one of my favorite kiddie books, "Little Black Sambo" to "Little Brave Sambo." 
What next? Change the "Bernstein Bears" book to something else to avoid anti-semitism? What about changing "Mrs. Butterworth's" syrup to something else to avoid implied ageism? After all, her trademark is an elderly grandmother type. Come on people!!!!! Accept individuals for who they are. What a novel idea. Rant over.


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## CarolfromTX (Jun 18, 2020)

Being a chef is hardly demeaning any more. Chefs are well admired these days. One of our favorite shows is Top Chef. And guess what? There are black chefs, white chefs, gay chefs, Asian chefs, women chefs, or a combination of that. There is, in fact, this season, a gay, woman, Asian chef. She's a helluva good cook and I think she's gonna win. I think this stuff is political correctness run amok.


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## Sunny (Jun 18, 2020)

Pops, the Washington Redskins name dispute is still going on.  I don't think it will ever end.

This discussion made me wonder about the guy who appears on the box of Orville Reddenbacher popcorn. I started wondering if there really was such a person, and if that funny-looking picture was real.  I googled him, and yes, he was real, and apparently had a sense of humor. He said, "I should learn to keep my mouth shut."  I agree, it looks like he's bitten down on some of his uncooked product!


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## C'est Moi (Jun 18, 2020)

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right."-- George Orwell, _1984_


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## win231 (Jun 18, 2020)

Ya know, with all this crap, I'm grateful that I have two of my favorite shows on DVD ("All in the Family" & "The Jeffersons,") because I'll never see them again & they'll probably ban the reruns in the near future.

And they'll probably ban my other favorite ("Married With Children") because it's "insulting to women."  I have all of that one, too.


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

LindaB said:


> This is taking things just a little too far. For those of us who aren't racists, it never crossed our minds as to being racist symbols. I know I never thought of it that way. I grew up with Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, with never a thought about the color of their skin or what their station was in life.
> Some of these things are really ridiculous. I couldn't believe it when they changed one of my favorite kiddie books, "Little Black Sambo" to "Little Brave Sambo."
> What next? Change the "Bernstein Bears" book to something else to avoid anti-semitism? What about changing "Mrs. Butterworth's" syrup to something else to avoid implied ageism? After all, her trademark is an elderly grandmother type. Come on people!!!!! Accept individuals for who they are. What a novel idea. Rant over.


Exactly...  you say it far better than me


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

I agree these product icons stand for the quality of their products which are good! They should be proud. We love them like LindaB says, especially the Cream of Wheat guy.

You still can't beat Uncle Ben's long-grain type rice.


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## Pink Biz (Jun 18, 2020)

*"Quaker Oats Replaces Historically Racist Aunt Jemima Mascot With Black Female Lawyer Who Enjoys Pancakes Sometimes"*

https://www.theonion.com/quaker-oats-replaces-historically-racist-aunt-jemima-ma-1844015205


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## hollydolly (Jun 18, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> I agree these product icons stand for the quality of their products which are good! They should be proud. We love them like LindaB says, especially the Cream of Wheat guy.
> 
> You still can't beat Uncle Ben's long-grain type rice.


 I just went and counted , and we have 17 packets of Uncle Bens  Microwave rice in all different flavours..  we use it very regularly


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## Keesha (Jun 18, 2020)

Uncle Ben was an early African American rice growers who became a very wealthy man. His product was marketed in 1946.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

If the word "aunt' is so offensive, just call it  Ms. Jemima.  Or Mr. Benjamin.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> View attachment 110112
> 
> *Company: Chiquita*
> 
> ...


Hispanic or Latin people will be getting pissed off next-






 Hey we don't ALL wear fruit on our heads!


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

Now here's a stereotype of a Scotsman. If I believed this, I'd have moved there long ago!


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## treeguy64 (Jun 18, 2020)

Look, we now live in a world where certain people like to get offended.  They are the righteously indignant, and they stoke the publicity machine that keeps their rants front and center. 

You can bemoan changes made, by Big Business, in the name of political correctness, but see it for what it is: In the end, it's ALWAYS about the bottom line. If money is to be made by taking Aunt J off her box, then it's so long Aunt J! The same goes for all other products that will follow suit. None want to be the target of some boycott, in the near future. 

Yes, history is being rewritten, to an extent, but it's not Orwellian, at this point: As long as the internet stays relatively free of censorship, you'll still be able to see old boxes of Aunt J pancake mix, and see her picture. If/when it gets to the point where even pictures and information about our past start disappearing from cyberspace, THEN we will know that Orwell had it right, but simply had the wrong year. 

I plan on not being around by the time Orwell's Dystopia is realized, although I strongly hope that time never arrives, with or without me in this world.


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## Sunny (Jun 18, 2020)

Pink Biz, you had me going for a minute there, with Sheila, the bisexual black lawyer who enjoys pancakes sometimes, until I saw The Onion on top!


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## fmdog44 (Jun 18, 2020)

America to the rescue of 400 years of oppression by changing cereal labels and syrup bottles.


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## MarciKS (Jun 18, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Along with the food products  ....  have you seen the new  Band-Aid  brand  bandages?


It's about damned time.


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## RadishRose (Jun 18, 2020)

I so agree with the band aids!!!


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## win231 (Jun 18, 2020)

Yeah.....and they'll also have to change "Hebrew National."  What higher authority do they answer to?  Some Israelis might not like being associated with bologna & hot dogs.


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## Linda (Jun 18, 2020)

I guess its a good thing I don't still have my mom's old Aunt Jemima cookie jar.  We loved that cookie jar and through the years she got chipped and the paint faded a bit.  I think it was an honor that she could make good pancakes and help me make them too.  What the heck is wrong with people?

I'm pretty sure Mrs Butterworth isn't black so why are some offended by her?  I don't use her syrup because its not natural raw maple syrup, but I see no reason to take her off the syrup bottle.   And what is wrong with a black man that can make good rice?


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## Gary O' (Jun 18, 2020)

*Aunt Jemima brand to change name, remove image that Quaker says is 'based on a racial stereotype'*

Cool

Now maybe I can get gramma's pancakes on the label


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## Wren (Jun 19, 2020)

I’m guessing this guy will stay ...


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## treeguy64 (Jun 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yeah.....and they'll also have to change "Hebrew National."  What higher authority do they answer to?  Some Israelis might not like being associated with bologna & hot dogs.


The "higher authority" they answer to is the big guy in the sky. This company was founded to provide quality KOSHER products to those following such dietary mandates and guidelines. No Israelis would be offended by it, I'm betting, but, in this world, I'm certain SOMEBODY will be.......


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2020)

PopsnTuff said:


> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...change-name-remove-image-quaker-says-n1231260
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/uncle-ben-s-change-its-branding-part-parent-company-s-n1231329
> Uncle Ben's rice to change brand as part of parent company's stance against racism.
> ...


I agree, she has a lovely visage.  She was warm and comforting to me during my turbulent childhood.    In adulthood, I purposely paid more just to have this lovely glass lady on my table.  Some memories are worth preserving.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Bonnie I hadn't see these but this picture brought back memories of when I was a child and "flesh colored" crayons were always the color of the bandaid on the far left. Even as a child, I always thought that was strange because flesh comes in a variety of colors.


Yes - That was definitely wrong from the get-go.  It's been a while since I bought a 64 pack of Crayola Crayons.  I wonder if they ever changed that?


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## Fyrefox (Jun 19, 2020)

There was a commercial for _KFC _in the past year that depicted _Colonel Sanders _meeting _Mrs. Butterworth _in a spacious room, and dancing with her.  As the commercial faded, the Colonel had bedroom eyes, and was about to kiss the animated syrup bottle.  I wish them every happiness, although I’m not ready for this...


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## Gary O' (Jun 19, 2020)

Wren said:


> I’m guessing this guy will stay ...


Martians may have something to say about that


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## Camper6 (Jun 19, 2020)

This is the image we get in Canada.  It's quite different from the one I remember from my childhood.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> This is the image we get in Canada.  It's quite different from the one I remember from my childhood.
> 
> View attachment 110167


I wonder why?


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## Sunny (Jun 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yeah.....and they'll also have to change "Hebrew National."  What higher authority do they answer to?  Some Israelis might not like being associated with bologna & hot dogs.


Isn't that "higher authority" meant to be a joke?  I always thought it simply meant that the Hebrew National company follows the laws of kashrut in preparing their meats. And those laws supposedly come from "above,"  not from some health department.  

I doubt that any Israelis would be offended.


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## win231 (Jun 19, 2020)

They'll have to change the name of "Cracker Jack."  "Cracker" is a slang term for a poor white person.


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## RadishRose (Jun 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> Yes - That was definitely wrong from the get-go.  It's been a while since I bought a 64 pack of Crayola Crayons.  I wonder if they ever changed that?


That was changed to "peach" many years ago.


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## RadishRose (Jun 19, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> I wonder why?


Ms. Jemima looks the same in the US, too


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## squatting dog (Jun 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> They'll have to change the name of "Cracker Jack."  "Cracker" is a slang term for a poor white person.



Yep, and dixie cups has got to go now too.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Ms. Jemima looks the same in the US, too


I had the glass bottle of Aunt Jemima Syrup... Wish I still had one!


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## Camper6 (Jun 19, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Ms. Jemima looks the same in the US, too


The one I remember wasn't anything like this one.


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## Becky1951 (Jun 19, 2020)

Wren said:


> I’m guessing this guy will stay ...
> View attachment 110145


What!!! And offend the Martians!


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## squatting dog (Jun 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> Ya know, with all this crap, I'm grateful that I have two of my favorite shows on DVD ("All in the Family" & "The Jeffersons,") because I'll never see them again & they'll probably ban the reruns in the near future.
> 
> And they'll probably ban my other favorite ("Married With Children") because it's "insulting to women."  I have all of that one, too.



Win.... don't forget to get hold of this movie before it too disappears.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 19, 2020)

How will our youth ever learn of how society evolved if we remove all of the 'historic' items?  Granted, I think some statues would have been better suited to memorial gardens/cemeteries.  But, there should be a limit, in my opinion.  

Books banned because an author used a term that was prevalent to the era are a pet peeve. The 'flesh' colored crayon sat poorly with me since childhood.  The skin-toned bandaids - yes - not everyone is that same sickly color and most don't want to draw attention to their boo boo's!

With so many issues of REAL importance, things like this only detract from the really big problems, imo. 

Be sensitive, but not overly sensitive to the point of being silly.


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## RadishRose (Jun 19, 2020)

Honestly, these food corporations are terrified they'll lose money if blacks and others boycott their products. It's ONLY about money folks!

They pretend they are changing to match their "corporate values". Those values are m.o.n.e.y.  If I were black I'd consider this an insult. I consider it an insult anyway. It's just a kiss up- they don't care about us or our feelings. Just wallets.

In fact, if I bought pancake mix, I would boycott their new trademark. Any maple syrup I'd buy would be pure, anyway.  This is all a greedy fakeout,

Thanks for listening.


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## StarSong (Jun 19, 2020)

If the founders of Aunt Jemima & Uncle Ben's products had indeed been people named Jemima and Ben, and whose own images were on the products, this wouldn't be a conversation.  That's not what happened though.  Companies exploited and perpetuated racist stereotypical associations of African-American kitchen slaves or servants by the use of those names and images.    

Product lines featuring Martha Stuart, Gordon Ramsey, Colonel Sanders, Chef Boyardee and others are not similarly exploitative because those folks endorsed or created the products bearing their names and likenesses.     

It's neither Orwellian nor revisionist history to move forward as a culture grows. 

Pre-1960s, Madison Avenue generally depicted women within narrow stereotypical confines. Such vain, shallow, not terribly bright creatures. A little daffy, plenty gossipy, desperate to marry, always sleuthing for new recipes and time-saving appliances, deeply concerned about dishpan hands, ring around the collar and why our husbands won't drink a second cup of coffee at home but indulge at a friend's house. Fortunately we women took good care of ourselves by taking Geritol (hoping our husbands would also magnanimously proclaim, "My wife, I think I'll keep her.") 

Perhaps we return to those good old days, too, or is that a bridge too far?


----------



## Been There (Jun 19, 2020)

StarSong said:


> If the founders of Aunt Jemima & Uncle Ben's products had indeed been people named Jemima and Ben, and whose own images were on the products, this wouldn't be a conversation.  That's not what happened though.  Companies exploited and perpetuated racist stereotypical associations of African-American kitchen slaves or servants by the use of those names and images.
> 
> Product lines featuring Martha Stuart, Gordon Ramsey, Colonel Sanders, Chef Boyardee and others are not similarly exploitative because those folks endorsed or created the products bearing their names and likenesses.
> 
> ...


JMO, but I always thought Orwell and his thoughts of a Totalitarian government was absurd and dangerous.


----------



## gennie (Jun 19, 2020)

Been There said:


> JMO, but I always thought Orwell and his thoughts of a Totalitarian government was *absurd and dangerous.*



I did too but it's growing less so every day.  Maybe Orwell just got the date wrong


----------



## Been There (Jun 19, 2020)

gennie said:


> I did too but it's growing less so every day.  Maybe Orwell just got the date wrong


I always thought of it as something out of "The Twilight Zone." All each of us has to do is to remember to breath. The government will provide us with a day to day agenda. Just follow the instructions and all will be well.


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## RadishRose (Jun 19, 2020)

oofa!


----------



## Sunny (Jun 19, 2020)

There's another brand that I refuse to buy: Grandma's.  Grandma's Cookies, Grandma's Mac & Cheese, etc.  There's a whole line of such products. A little too manipulative for my tastes.


----------



## C'est Moi (Jun 19, 2020)

Oh for heaven's sake.


----------



## win231 (Jun 19, 2020)

squatting dog said:


> Win.... don't forget to get hold of this movie before it too disappears.
> 
> View attachment 110188


LOL.   "Schvartzes."


----------



## Sunny (Jun 19, 2020)

Mel Brooks is a genius at being both offensive and funny at the same time.  If only there were more like him!


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## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

StarSong said:


> If the founders of Aunt Jemima & Uncle Ben's products had indeed been people named Jemima and Ben, and whose own images were on the products, this wouldn't be a conversation.  That's not what happened though.  *Companies exploited and perpetuated racist stereotypical associations of African-American kitchen slaves or servants by the use of those names and images.   *
> 
> Product lines featuring Martha Stuart, Gordon Ramsey, Colonel Sanders, Chef Boyardee and others are not similarly exploitative because those folks endorsed or created the products bearing their names and likenesses.
> 
> ...


*Exactly.*

Others know this, but they're too busy with yukyuks, LOLs, and whining about "all this PC crap".


----------



## Keesha (Jun 19, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Honestly, these food corporations are terrified they'll lose money if blacks and others boycott their products. It's ONLY about money folks!
> 
> They pretend they are changing to match their "corporate values". Those values are m.o.n.e.y.  If I were black I'd consider this an insult. I consider it an insult anyway. It's just a kiss up- they don't care about us or our feelings. Just wallets.
> 
> ...


Of course. Any chance to for product advertisement at any cost. It’s always about money. There’s always a money trail to follow. Moral intentions have little to do with it but if everyone else is doing it so will they.


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## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Of course. *Any chance to for product advertisement at any cost. It’s always about money. *There’s always a money trail to follow. Moral intentions have little to do with it but if everyone else is doing it so will they.



Not necessarily.
On _"Mad Men" _there was a storyline where Pete Campbell encouraged the execs of Admiral television to advertise in Jet and Ebony magazine. They refused, saying they didn't want to be known as the "TV company for coloreds".
Pete had talked to a few black people and found out they bought Admiral TVs.  He was right, but the execs at Admiral wouldn't budge.


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## Keesha (Jun 19, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Not necessarily.
> On _"Mad Men" _there was a storyline where Pete Campbell encouraged the execs of Admiral television to advertise in Jet and Ebony magazine. They refused, saying they didn't want to be known as the "TV company for coloreds".
> Pete had talked to a few black people and found out they bought Admiral TVs.  He was right, but the execs at Admiral wouldn't budge.


I’m not saying there are no business people with moral integrity. Just not many. Plus I don’t mind being proved wrong.


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## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m not saying there are no business people with moral integrity. Just not many. Plus I don’t mind being proved wrong.


Maybe you misunderstood.
The execs I referred to in the Mad Men story had NO moral integrity. None.


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## Pepper (Jun 19, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Maybe you misunderstood.
> The execs I referred to in the Mad Men story had NO moral integrity. None.


The Mad Men story is fiction for television, so unless it has factual basis I don't understand why you're using it as an example.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 19, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Maybe you misunderstood.
> The execs I referred to in the Mad Men story had NO moral integrity. None.


Probably. I misunderstand a lot. I thought it sounded all wrong but wasn’t sure what to say.
Luckily there are still plenty of good people around.


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## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> The Mad Men story is fiction for television, so unless it has factual basis I don't understand why you're using it as an example.


Actually, it IS fact. It really happened. Do a little research. So maybe you should get your facts straight before you come into a discussion fronting off about something you know nothing about.


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## Pepper (Jun 19, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Actual, it is fact. It really happened. Do a little research. So maybe you should get your facts straight before you come into a discussion fronting off about something you know nothing about.


Yes Ma'am!  Pardon me.  I am so very sorry.  I will try with all my heart to never commit such an offense again.  Please forgive me.


----------



## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Yes Ma'am!  Pardon me.  I am so very sorry.  I will try with all my heart to never commit such an offense again.  Please forgive me.



Hmmm.  Nah. Just be more careful next time.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 19, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Hmmm.  Nah. Just be more careful next time.


How can I ever thank you?


----------



## applecruncher (Jun 19, 2020)

Feel better soon!
Also, suggest you stop the disruptive BS.


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## Manatee (Jun 19, 2020)

Are they going to remove the Quaker man from the oatmeal packages, he might offend the Tibetans.


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## Don M. (Jun 19, 2020)

I don't really care about the "hype" or name on the packaging when I buy a food product....the ingredients and quality are all I care about.  I like pancakes or waffles for breakfast, and I tried "Aunt Jemima" once....then promptly went back to the "Hungry Jack" brand....better tasting, and better waffles, IMO.  

If "jockeying around" the names and pictures on the packaging makes some people feel better, so be it.  

Between this Corona Virus, and these Protests, I'm beginning to think that a sizeable portion of  our population is totally Nuts.


----------



## Pappy (Jun 20, 2020)

The one on the left was on mixes and syrups when I was younger.


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## Judycat (Jun 20, 2020)

I don't care what they call it. The recipe is pretty good though.


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## Liberty (Jun 20, 2020)

Don M. said:


> I don't really care about the "hype" or name on the packaging when I buy a food product....the ingredients and quality are all I care about.  I like pancakes or waffles for breakfast, and I tried "Aunt Jemima" once....then promptly went back to the "Hungry Jack" brand....better tasting, and better waffles, IMO.
> 
> If "jockeying around" the names and pictures on the packaging makes some people feel better, so be it.
> 
> Between this Corona Virus, and these Protests, I'm beginning to think that a sizeable portion of  our population is totally Nuts.


Yep, I was quarantined for 9 months when I was a kid, then escorted to work when I was a young worker during the race riots in Cleveland...nothing much seems to have changed after all this time.  History may not repeat itself but it sure as heck does "rhyme".


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## Rosemarie (Jun 20, 2020)

ronaldj said:


> i read  she (the lady the image is of) was a freed slave and sold her recipe to company and when she died in 1923 she was the first black woman millionaire


Now that's a more positive story...we need to hear of more black people who have made a success of their lives instead of whingers who blame white people for everything which has gone wrong in their lives.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 20, 2020)

We all see different things.

Anna Short Harrington who portrayed Aunt Jemima from 1935-1954 lived in my city for many years and is buried here.

These quotes are from her great-grandson concerning the proposed changes.

_“This is an injustice for me and my family. This is part of my history, sir,” Evans said Thursday. “The racism they talk about, using images from slavery, that comes from the other side — white people. This company profits off images of our slavery. And their answer is to erase my great-grandmother’s history. A black female… It hurts.” 

“This woman served all those people, and it was after slavery. She worked as Aunt Jemima. That was her job,” Evans said. “How do you think I feel as a black man sitting here telling you about my family history they’re trying to erase?” _


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## Pepper (Jun 20, 2020)

delete


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## gennie (Jun 20, 2020)

I think people's "I'm offended" meter is set much too low and also set to give alarm about too many things that don't matter.

There are far too many real, actual offensive things happening in the real world today that need attention.  The design on a card board box is not one of them.

The picture on the box is for product recognition only and intelligent people see it as just that.  Changing it will be expensive and that charge will be passed on to the end user - us.


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## StarSong (Jun 20, 2020)

These are changes whose time have come.  Perpetuating stereotypes through advertising only serves to reinforce the insidious racism that exists in our country.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 20, 2020)

More history about the Aunt Jemima brand. The first portrayal was by Nancy Green, a former slave who moved to Chicago. There is concern about preserving her legacy as well.
https://www.wbez.org/stories/the-fi...t-jemima/52ed36eb-d4f0-4747-ac65-62b4c4150e9f


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## Pinky (Jun 20, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> More history about the Aunt Jemima brand. The first portrayal was by Nancy Green, a former slave who moved to Chicago. There is concern about preserving her legacy as well.
> https://www.wbez.org/stories/the-fi...t-jemima/52ed36eb-d4f0-4747-ac65-62b4c4150e9f


Thank you for posting this excellent article.


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## fuzzybuddy (Jun 20, 2020)

I doubt that the Quaker Oats  company is more concerned with perpetuating a stereotype, than its sagging sales, and the flack over the stereotype. I guess there was a time when Aunt Jemima was a symbol of good home cooking. But somewhere along the line a black Jemima was offering a different concept that a white Jemima could not convey. It's sort of like an obviousl miserly, old creepy Jewish man drooling over a pot of money.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 20, 2020)

Pinky said:


> Thank you for posting this excellent article.


You're welcome Pinky. Thank you for your response!


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## fmdog44 (Jun 20, 2020)

NFL football is rotten to the core with refusing to include black head coaches, executives and owners and despite decades of urging the name be changed the Washington Redskins remain today. Why?


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## JaniceM (Jun 20, 2020)

Latest:  no more ice cream for you!!!  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eskimo-pie-name-change_n_5eee2306c5b6deb4a8465197


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## StarSong (Jun 20, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Latest:  no more ice cream for you!!!  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eskimo-pie-name-change_n_5eee2306c5b6deb4a8465197


Maybe Alaska Pies?  That'd work for everyone.


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## StarSong (Jun 20, 2020)

StarSong said:


> They're not discontinuing them, just going to figure out a new name.  Maybe Alaska Pies?  That'd work for everyone.


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## Been There (Jun 20, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> NFL football is rotten to the core with refusing to include black head coaches, executives and owners and despite decades of urging the name be changed the Washington Redskins remain today. Why?


Why does it matter what color the coach is?


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 20, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Latest:  no more ice cream for you!!!  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eskimo-pie-name-change_n_5eee2306c5b6deb4a8465197


See I've learned something else today. I never knew the history of the term Eskimo and that it had derogatory connotations.


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## Ken N Tx (Jun 21, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> refusing to include black head coaches


Where have you been?? There are black coaches....


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## gennie (Jun 21, 2020)

The racial problems that plague the country today have little  to do with Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben and a lot to do with abusive police officers.


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## StarSong (Jun 21, 2020)

From this morning's Washington Post

*Why did it take so long to set Aunt Jemima free?*




A 1940s print ad for Aunt Jemima products. (Handout/Via Reuters)




By 
Michele L. Norris 


Just in time for Juneteenth, Quaker Oats announced that the Aunt Jemima brand will be retired as its parent company PepsiCo works to “make progress toward racial equality.” Like that of the enslaved black people in Texas who remained in bondage years after President Abraham Lincoln had granted their freedom, the emancipation of Aunt Jemima is way behind schedule. I mean, really, why did it take this long?

Her name should have fallen off boxes and bottles years ago, and the fact that it didn’t suggests that the companies that controlled the brand for more than a century have all been slaves to profit — holding onto a valuable trademark that’s internationally known and historically offensive.
I admit to having a complicated relationship with Aunt Jemima. She occupies a secret branch of my family tree. For a period of time in the late 1940s and early 1950s, my grandmother, Ione Brown, was part of an army of women who worked as traveling Aunt Jemimas, visiting small-town fairs and rotary-club breakfasts to conduct pancake-making demonstrations at a time when the notion of ready-mix convenience cooking was new.

I never knew about my grandmother’s work until long after she died. It was one of those things my family never really talked about. I learned about it while researching a family memoir called “The Grace of Silence.” I learned that she made good money and covered a region including Iowa, the Dakotas, Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. She was often treated like a celebrity in small towns, but could not stay in local hotels. She kept an eye out for houses that had a small sign in the window that said “TOURIST,” a code for homes that provided lodging and meals to black people.
This is a complicated legacy for my family. Ione was a civic leader in Minneapolis, founder of a senior center that is still thriving today on 38th Street, a few blocks from where George Floyd was killed last month. As a family, we are offended by the caricature that Aunt Jemima represents, but deeply proud of the way my grandmother used the stage that was available to lift herself up. You see, in those days Aunt Jemima didn’t look like the lady you see on the box today. She was a slave woman, and Ione was expected to act and talk like a slave woman, using the kind of broken patois that blighted the full-page ads in magazines like Women’s Day and Life.

But the women who represented the brand often refused to follow that script. They wore the costume because the company refused to let them show up in a smart suit, but in many cases, they dropped the broken English. My grandmother sang gospel songs so people would know she was a woman of God, and she focused on children because she knew that many of those little white boys and girls had never seen a black woman before. She must have blown their minds when she served pancakes, reciting Bible verses and poetry from heart in the crisp diction I remember from childhood, when she would fuss at me and my cousins for droppin’ the letter “g” from the end of our words.


I peered into my grandmother’s history with dread and trepidation. I emerged with a deep well of respect for how she and women with names like Rosa, Joburness, Edith and Aylene flipped the stereotype on its head to show America what black elegance sounded like, even while wearing a headscarf and an apron.
Quaker Oats, on the other hand, earned my ire on several fronts. Aunt Jemima was based on the idea that you could have a servant in your kitchen, smiling from the box, easing your burden, and it has been that way since the brand was first created back in 1889. Quaker Oats ignored boycotts and petitions and instead engaged in a tortured series of makeovers that amount to a process of attempted de-mammification.
Jemima’s do-rag was replaced by a plaid headband. Eventually the headdress was dropped altogether. A 1989 rebrand made her look like someone who shops at Macy’s: Coifed hair. Pearl earrings. Red lipstick. At various points, the company turned for help to consultants like Caroline Jones, who ran the nation’s top black ad agency, and who told the company: “White people may have long forgotten the slaves of old, but no Black person can.” PepsiCo, which acquired Quaker Oats in 2001, has now realized that de-mammification is not the same as destigmatization.


There is now a growing list of outfits revisiting troubling brands. The country group Lady Antebellum has changed its name to Lady A. NASCAR has banned the use of the Confederate flag. The Mars Company is trying to decide what to do about Uncle Ben. Time to retire him, too. The companies that clung to these brands need to do some honest soul-searching to own up to why they waited so long to let go.

One of the things that irks me most about the Jemima brand is the way the mammy stereotype hijacked what should be an endearing image for black America and tried to turn it into something toxic. Most of us have someone in our family with fleshy arms and a loving smile who serves up cherished advice along with delicious food. They are our aunts and mothers and grandmothers. Our godmothers. Our queens.
You tried to make us ashamed of what Aunt Jemima stood for. But we have always known that the real women the silent spokeswoman was supposed to represent deserved crowns on their heads instead of a do-rag.


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 21, 2020)

StarSong said:


> From this morning's Washington Post
> 
> *Why did it take so long to set Aunt Jemima free?*
> 
> ...


I'm awed by this narrative!  As I posted here, I always loved the visage of the lady on the glass bottle of Aunt Jemima's Syrup.  Then again, I had the benefit of a family that invited friends of all colors and shades to eat and drink in our home at a time when there were still signs up on water fountains saying, "Whites Only."  As a white kid in a diverse area, I didn't know that racism was a 'thing.'  When I noticed it, I was dumbfounded.  The whole concept seemed absurd.  Now, it seems contemptible.


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## StarSong (Jun 21, 2020)

p.s. I copy & pasted the the full article because it's probably behind a paywall, but is too beautifully explained for WaPo non-subscribers to miss.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 21, 2020)

StarSong said:


> p.s. I copy & pasted the the full article because it's probably behind a paywall, but is too beautifully explained for WaPo non-subscribers to miss.


Much appreciated since I've worn out my free access to just about every site that I visit.


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## JustBonee (Jun 21, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Latest:  no more ice cream for you!!!  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eskimo-pie-name-change_n_5eee2306c5b6deb4a8465197



Yes,  saw that on the evening news ... Eskimo Pie,   the latest to take a hit. ...   crazy!

Wonder when someone will decide that  Vanilla and Chocolate Ice Cream won't work in today's politically correct world ?


----------



## Em in Ohio (Jun 21, 2020)

Bonnie said:


> Yes,  saw that on the evening news ... Eskimo Pie,   the latest to take a hit. ...   crazy!
> 
> Wonder when someone will decide that  Vanilla and Chocolate Ice Cream won't work in today's politically correct world ?


Didn't know which smilie to use on this - to laugh or to cry.


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 21, 2020)

StarSong said:
"They're not discontinuing them, just going to figure out a new name. Maybe Alaska Pies? That'd work for everyone."
How about "Polar Pies?"


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## Em in Ohio (Jun 21, 2020)

In an earlier post, there was a discussion about the names of sports teams.  I mentioned that the term "Redskins" was prevalent in old cowboy and indian movies and shows.  It just occurred to me that in those same shows, they called the caucasians "Palefaces."  Will the day come when reruns will have both these terms bleeped out?

I tend to agree with Gennie's post:  "I think people's "I'm offended" meter is set much too low and also set to give alarm about too many things that don't matter." 

We can rewrite history (and it has been done many times), but I don't approve, as it will not change the sordid past.  All we can do is work towards a more enlightened future.  Let's address the BIG issues!


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## Keesha (Jun 21, 2020)

I think people’s I’m offended metre is set far too high.

Note: That’s not to say some things don’t need to change but where does this political correctness end? I’m even afraid to voice my comments for fear it will offend others. I agree we have bigger issues to deal with than product names.

People will be afraid to talk to others for fear of offending others accidentally.


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## MarciKS (Jun 21, 2020)

anymore you never know. you can offend someone at the drop of a hat now. over stupid crap. and God forbid you should say something they don't like. i find it easier to just not talk too much anymore which kinda ruins things for me. i want to converse and enjoy people but they make such a big deal out of piddly crap.


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## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

Em in Ohio said:


> StarSong said:
> "They're not discontinuing them, just going to figure out a new name. Maybe Alaska Pies? That'd work for everyone."
> How about "Polar Pies?"


I like it, Em!


----------



## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I think people’s I’m offended metre is set far too high.


In younger years I certainly dealt with plenty of sexist jokes, behaviors, presumptions and unequal treatment in the workplace. Was I offended sometimes? You betcha. Very glad those days are in the rear view mirror. 

My father's Italian family came to the US in about 1890, during that great immigration wave. Although born in Brooklyn and perfectly fluent in English, he was subject to name calling (guinea, dago, wop), profiling and discrimination. As were his Jewish friends. 

In order to find a job during this period of anti-Italian sentiment in this country, my father legally changed his first name and angicized the pronunciation of his last name, which he legally shortened. A not uncommon move by young men of that era.

The US has an ugly history of discrimination. It's only when people have been offended and discriminated against to the point where they scream "Enough!" that change occurs. If Native Americans repeatedly complain that "Redskins" offends them, why in the world would a team persist in using that team name?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> In younger years I certainly dealt with plenty of sexist jokes, behaviors, presumptions and unequal treatment in the workplace. Was I offended sometimes? You betcha. Very glad those days are in the rear view mirror.
> 
> My father's Italian family came to the US in about 1890, during that great immigration wave. Although born in Brooklyn and perfectly fluent in English, he was subject to name calling (guinea, dago, wop), profiling and discrimination. As were his Jewish friends.
> 
> ...


So true. You make a really good point.
I definitely went through ****** harassment when I was younger. Quite a bit of it actually. One guy I almost knocked him off his chair and was incredibly close. What I should have done is reported him to the labour board or even police but I didn’t want to be hassled about it. It’s embarrassing enough as is.

Yeahhhh! Ok you just brought that all back home to me and yes sometimes some balls need rattling to get things changed and I will happily accept that change if it makes things more equal and fair to others. You bet. Some things are definitely worth fighting for. ❤


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> In younger years I certainly dealt with plenty of sexist jokes, behaviors, presumptions and unequal treatment in the workplace. Was I offended sometimes? You betcha. Very glad those days are in the rear view mirror.
> 
> My father's Italian family came to the US in about 1890, during that great immigration wave. Although born in Brooklyn and perfectly fluent in English, he was subject to name calling (guinea, dago, wop), profiling and discrimination. As were his Jewish friends.
> 
> ...


I still think the old-fashioned approach was more sensible:  it's wrong to _insult  _people-  because any reasonable person knows what that word means.  Those disgusting terms you said were thrown at your father are examples.

With this new approach, anybody can be 'offended' by anything they 'choose to be' or 'say they are' "offended" by-  even if there's nothing wrong with what's said.  In my opinion, it's just another modern manipulation.  

And, re:  the Native American subject you and others mentioned-  I hate football, never paid attention to it, but consider the possibility that it's only a few individuals who've been making an issue of it.  
The reason for this viewpoint:  although it's also my high school mascot, but was removed and replaced with something ridiculous quite a few years ago, I've not known of any Native American alumni who considered the term to be objectionable or 'offensive.'  So what it came to is 'the powers that be' decided to take a so-called PC approach by taking away our traditional mascot.  I also checked with a couple of Native Americans not connected to my school-  online friends-  and they were in no way bothered by the term 'Redskins' either.


----------



## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I still think the old-fashioned approach was more sensible:  it's wrong to _insult  _people-  because any reasonable person knows what that word means.  Those disgusting terms you said were thrown at your father are examples.
> 
> With this new approach, anybody can be 'offended' by anything they 'choose to be' or 'say they are' "offended" by-  even if there's nothing wrong with what's said.  In my opinion, it's just another modern manipulation.
> 
> ...


I cannot imagine a Native American who doesn't take offense to the term Redskin but there were probably some outlier Italians who didn't object to the terms guinea, dago or wop.        

I congratulate your school's powers that be on their collective wisdom in replacing a mascot they deemed offensive despite apparent pushback among its alumni.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I cannot imagine a Native American who doesn't take offense to the term Redskin but there were probably some outlier Italians who didn't object to the terms guinea, dago or wop.
> 
> I congratulate your school's powers that be on their collective wisdom in replacing a mascot they deemed offensive despite apparent pushback among its alumni.



I was married to an Italian-American and my late brother-in-law was Sicilian (not Italian, Sicilian - he would point that out.) There weren't any "outliers" - all Italians dealt with ugly prejudice and stereotyping, and found those terms extremely offensive.


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## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> I was married to an Italian-American and my late brother-in-law was Sicilian (not Italian, Sicilian - he would point that out.) There weren't any "outliers" - all Italians dealt with ugly prejudice and stereotyping, and found those terms extremely offensive.


I didn't want to call BS on the poster.  It's possible she found a couple of Native Americans who don't find the term "Redskin" offensive.  It's also possible that a rare Italian-American professed to not find guinea, dago or wop offensive.  Possible. Undoubtedly uncommon but possible.     

By the time I was born in the 50s most Italian prejudice had diminished considerably or moved far enough underground in my neighborhood that it was barely noticeable. High profile post-war entertainers like Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sophia Loren sure helped. 

Not so for many of my Jewish, Black, Hispanic and LGBTQ friends, who still deal with this ignorance.  

Truly, I see a disheartening amount of thinly veiled racism on this very forum.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I didn't want to call BS on the poster.  It's possible she found a couple of Native Americans who don't find the term "Redskin" offensive.  It's also possible that a rare Italian-American professed to not find guinea, dago or wop offensive.  Possible. Undoubtedly uncommon but possible.
> 
> By the time I was born in the 50s most Italian prejudice had diminished considerably or moved far enough underground in my neighborhood that it was barely noticeable. High profile post-war entertainers like Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sophia Loren sure helped.
> 
> ...



You are right in that anti-Italian prejudice is older and faded out earlier.  The stereotypes were amazing; I remember reading about a newspaper interview with a young Joe DiMaggio where the writer complimented him on combing his hair with plain water rather than "bear grease" (presumably that was what Italians were supposed to use.)

Most white people I know would do anything not to be thought of as racist.  They would bend over backward to avoid giving offense.  What they feel or think in their heart of hearts I can't say.


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## Been There (Jun 22, 2020)

Chicago just had it's deadliest weekend (6/20-6/21) with 85 people being shot and 24 killed, including a 3 year-old little boy who was shot while sitting in a car and four teenagers were also included in the killings. And, I'm supposed to give a damn about renaming a football team because a few native Americans are offended being called a "Redskin."  Let them speak for themselves. Why do we have to get involved? Don't we have bigger fish to fry? Those native Americans are alive and will continue to live. Being called a Redskin is not lethal. 

We should be more concerned about the killings than the renaming of a football team, which no one gives a crap about. A life has been taken of a three year-old little boy. This really has me upset. That 3 year-old little boy will never get to live his life or have any experiences. It's a damn shame. Each of us only gets one life and this little boy's life has been snuffed out.


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## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Most white people I know would do anything not to be thought of as racist.  They would bend over backward to avoid giving offense.  What they feel or think in their heart of hearts I can't say.



That's why I referred to the comments as thinly veiled racism. Lots of dog whistles being sounded here and elsewhere in our country.


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## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

Been There said:


> Chicago just had it's deadliest weekend (6/20-6/21) with 85 people being shot and 24 killed, including a 3 year-old little boy who was shot while sitting in a car and four teenagers were also included in the killings. And, I'm supposed to give a damn about renaming a football team because a few native Americans are offended being called a "Redskin."  Let them speak for themselves. Why do we have to get involved? Don't we have bigger fish to fry? Those native Americans are alive and will continue to live. Being called a Redskin is not lethal.
> 
> We should be more concerned about the killings than the renaming of a football team, which no one gives a crap about. A life has been taken of a three year-old little boy. This really has me upset. That 3 year-old little boy will never get to live his life or have any experiences. It's a damn shame. Each of us only gets one life and this little boy's life has been snuffed out.



These are unrelated issues. Fixing one thing does not take away from fixing another. The gun violence in Chicago is indeed horrific. That doesn't change the fact that there are other problems that need addressing.

Edited to correct a serious error.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> These are unrelated issues. Fixing one thing does not take away from fixing another. The gun violence in Chicago is indeed horrific. That doesn't change the fact that there are other problems that need addressing.
> 
> Your attitude surprises me, particularly after the empathetic remarks you made above about the ugly anti-Italian prejudice, stereotyping and offensive words used to hurt your former wife and brother-in-law. Do you not see that to many Native Americans the term "Redskins" is as offensive as a team called "The Dagos" (with a stereotypical profile image) would be to Italian-Americans?



You're mixing my post up with someone else's (BeenThere, I think).  

I grew up with the Redskins but switched over to the Giants many years ago.  The Redskins name is outdated and there is no reason not to change it, other than the modest one-time cost of switching over.


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## applecruncher (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Truly, I see a disheartening amount of thinly veiled racism on this very forum.


Indeed, and some isn't veiled.


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

Nobody better tell me I can’t sing Christmas songs any more or tell me I have to call them holiday tunes.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Nobody better tell me I can’t sing Christmas songs any more or tell me I have to call them holiday tunes.



You can sing them.  Just skip "Baby It's Cold Outside."  And this year, maybe skip "White Christmas" as well.


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## StarSong (Jun 22, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> You're mixing my post up with someone else's (BeenThere, I think).
> 
> I grew up with the Redskins but switched over to the Giants many years ago.  The Redskins name is outdated and there is no reason not to change it, other than the modest one-time cost of switching over.


You are so right.  I did confuse the posts.  My sincere apologies.  I will edit it now.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> You are so right.  I did confuse the posts.  My sincere apologies.  I will edit it now.


No problem, I am confused all the time.


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## Been There (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> These are unrelated issues. Fixing one thing does not take away from fixing another. The gun violence in Chicago is indeed horrific. That doesn't change the fact that there are other problems that need addressing.
> 
> Edited to correct a serious error.


Oh, I get it. Because you are part of the SF clique, you get to deem what we discuss and what we dismiss.
Good-bye!


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## Sunny (Jun 22, 2020)

Been There, since you said good-bye, you probably won't see this, but I've got to ask anyway:  What in tarnation is the "SF clique?"

About the Redskin name and the violence in Chicago, both are worthy of discussion, though not comparable. Apples and oranges.


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> And this year, maybe skip "White Christmas" as well.


Hahaha. Now that’s funny.


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

Been There said:


> Oh, I get it. Because you are part of the SF clique, you get to deem what we discuss and what we dismiss.
> Good-bye!


Good-bye!


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Indeed, and some isn't veiled.


Agreed. Not so veiled at all.


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## Pepper (Jun 22, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Been There, since you said good-bye, you probably won't see this, but I've got to ask anyway:  *What in tarnation is the "SF clique?"*


I only know that I'm sure not in it.  Trying to get into cliques since High School, I was never wanted, except once but that's a whole other story.


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## Pepper (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Not so for many of my* Jewish*, Black, Hispanic and LGBTQ friends, who still deal with this ignorance.
> 
> Truly, I see a disheartening amount of thinly veiled racism on this very forum.


Yes.  I once reported on this forum how, when I was 12 and in a small community out West, a boy and his father asked to feel my hair and touch my horns.  And, they were serious.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I only know that I'm sure not in it.  Trying to get into cliques since High School, I was never wanted, except once but that's a whole other story.


As per the famous Groucho Marx quote, I would never join any club that would have me as a member.


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## applecruncher (Jun 22, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Been There, since you said good-bye,


Been There isn't going anywhere. Just a ploy to pout and hopefully get attention.


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## JaniceM (Jun 22, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I didn't want to call BS on the poster.  It's possible she found a couple of Native Americans who don't find the term "Redskin" offensive.  It's also possible that a rare Italian-American professed to not find guinea, dago or wop offensive.  Possible. Undoubtedly uncommon but possible.
> 
> By the time I was born in the 50s most Italian prejudice had diminished considerably or moved far enough underground in my neighborhood that it was barely noticeable. High profile post-war entertainers like Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sophia Loren sure helped.
> 
> ...


Trying to address this AND one of your previous posts at the same time:

When referring to the school, I was referring to former classmates AND MYSELF.  And much later, a couple of coworkers.
Maybe if you get the context:  there's a celebrity named Brian Copeland, and he addressed this in one of his books-  virtually everybody he talked to insisted he 'identify' by certain terms, and the terms were all different.  His grandmother used the word 'Colored,' his mother got mad about that and said he must say 'Black,' and a friend later told him he couldn't use those words and should call himself 'African-American.'
And I can say personally it's darned confusing to me, too.  So I generally try to keep my mouth shut because I don't want to risk saying the 'wrong' thing-  even when referring to myself!!

It's entirely possible you have more knowledge of the word 'Redskins' origins, but I've never considered it derogatory.  And I don't even know when the long-time usage of 'African-American' was replaced with 'Black' again, til I noticed it here on this forum a few years ago. 

I guess I was lucky that I experienced very little negativity personally  in other locations and/or in the past.  In person, I was only on the receiving-end of a derogatory remark once-  just a couple of years ago, some high schoolers using the 'N' word.  And on this forum, the word 'mongrel'-  not only was it not taken seriously, some individuals gave the comment 'likes.' 

Ongoing, though, I'm smackdab in the middle of it-  from a hate symbol representing 'Death to Jews' to landlord who actually said 'I don't like Black people.'  And they're only a couple of examples.

edited to add (re: your previous post)-  the school didn't withstand pressure from us-  nobody asked our opinion.


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## JaniceM (Jun 22, 2020)

P.S.  (this is not sarcasm)  if the word 'Redskin' has to go, what'll be done about the name Oklahoma, will that have to be changed, too?


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## Pappy (Jun 22, 2020)

An awful lot of Indian named towns and counties here in Florida. Hell, let’s just change them all. We wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Sorry folks, but I’m just fed up with the whole darn thing.


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## jerry old (Jun 22, 2020)

My farrier came by to shoe my horses.
Herman's an older guy, does not like to mingle with others
He gestured for me to come over to the corral,
which is unusual as he is not a talker.

"Mr. G what you think going on?"

"As in...?

" You think there might be a crazy bug snuck into this coronavirus?

"Uh, no don't think so."

" Well, how come everyone on the street talks like they just had a lobotomy?"

'I said nothing.'

"Well I seen that movie, 'The Body Snatchers,' bet'cha somebody's  got a bunch of pods hid out.

"Room for thought, Herman, room for thought."

Herman clamped his mouth shut, no more words from Herman.


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I only know that I'm sure not in it.  Trying to get into cliques since High School, I was never wanted, except once but that's a whole other story.


Why would you want to be in a clique?


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## Pepper (Jun 22, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Why would you want to be in a clique?


Well, it was high school and they were the 'popular' kids.  Don't worry, I started hanging out in other places (Greenwich Village) and found 'my' people!


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Well, it was high school and they were the 'popular' kids.  Don't worry, I started hanging out in other places (Greenwich Village) and found 'my' people!


Even in high school I passed on all that. The popular kids excluded lots of other kids which turned me right off of them. They expected to be sucked up to and I’m not the sucking up type so despised most them. Plus they constantly gossiped. Yep! Couldn’t wait to be part of all that. NOT!


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## applecruncher (Jun 22, 2020)

Pappy said:


> Sorry folks, but I’m just fed up with the whole darn thing.


What whole darn thing? Newsflash: people who have been/still are victims of racism are also fed up. If you want to be "sorry" about something be sorry about THAT.


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## Sunny (Jun 22, 2020)

I went to a high school named Weequahic.  Our section of Newark, NJ was the Weequahic section, named after the tribe that used to live there. Our school symbol was a stylized "Indian chief," and our football team was called the Indians.  (They were terrible football players, mostly Jewish boys who excelled academically and were no match in sports for the Italian, Irish, and black kids on the other school teams.)  Nobody considered the name insulting. I don't know if that has changed, but the school is still called Weequahic.  It was made famous in Philip Roth's books.


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## Sunny (Jun 22, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> You can sing them.  Just skip "Baby It's Cold Outside."  And this year, maybe skip "White Christmas" as well.



And skip Rudolph also, while you're at it.


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

Sunny said:


> And skip Rudolph also, while you're at it.


I’m not a fan of singing about a  reindeer with a red nose or a brown one for that matter.


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## JaniceM (Jun 22, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m not a fan of singing about a  reindeer with a red nose or a brown one for that matter.


When I was a kid, one of the magazines I read had a section for jokes and some would not have been at all compatible with today's PC...  
One was about a guy named Rudolph, from a place known for Communism.. he and his wife were arguing about the weather-  she insisted it was snowing, he insisted it was raining, and after they argued for awhile he retorted "Rudolph the Red knows rain, dear!"


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## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> "Rudolph the Red knows rain, dear!"


I have to admit to laughing when I heard that


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 25, 2020)

One of my crazy friends posted this. His caption "The pancake problem solved....moving on."


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 25, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> One of my crazy friends posted this. His caption "The pancake problem solved....moving on."
> View attachment 111077


I wish it was that easy.


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## StarSong (Jun 25, 2020)

HAHAHAHAAH!!!!!  I love it, @OneEyedDiva! Only problem is that the photo is waaay too glam.  How about one of these?


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## rgp (Jun 25, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> What whole darn thing? Newsflash: people who have been/still are victims of racism are also fed up. If you want to be "sorry" about something be sorry about THAT.




 Oh, so we're not permitted to have our own gripes ? We just have to embrace yours ?

   I don't think so


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## applecruncher (Jun 25, 2020)

rgp said:


> Oh, so we're not permitted to have our own gripes ? We just have to embrace yours ?
> 
> I don't think so


Still having reading comprehension problems, I see.
Sad.


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## JaniceM (Jun 25, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> Still having reading comprehension problems, I see.
> Sad.


Some individuals seem to prefer "Their Truth" over "The Truth."


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 25, 2020)

StarSong said:


> HAHAHAHAAH!!!!!  I love it, @OneEyedDiva! Only problem is that the photo is waaay too glam.  How about one of these?
> 
> View attachment 111078
> 
> View attachment 111079


ROFLM*O!!! I like the one on the bottom.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 25, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> One of my crazy friends posted this. His caption "The pancake problem solved....moving on."
> View attachment 111077



Yes, because it's always a good thing to substitute one insult for another.  Who decided that calling a white woman "Karen" is OK when calling a black woman "Aunt Jemima" is not?   The crap never ends, it just changes course.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 25, 2020)

Been There said:


> Why does it matter what color the coach is?


I'll ignore that remark based on the idea you have no knowledge of the history of black coaches in the NFL.


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## fmdog44 (Jun 25, 2020)

Ken N Tx said:


> Where have you been?? There are black coaches....


OK genius list their names going back to say, 1950. Then list the names of black GMs and owners. Where the hell are YOU?!


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## StarSong (Jun 26, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> Yes, because it's always a good thing to substitute one insult for another.  Who decided that calling a white woman "Karen" is OK when calling a black woman "Aunt Jemima" is not?   The crap never ends, it just changes course.


White women are termed "Karens" when their behavior is entitled, obnoxious, demanding, complaining and oftentimes racist.  A living example is the woman who not only refused to leash her dog in Central Park, but called 911 with the false claim that an African-American male was threatening her and her dog.  

It's not the same thing as "Aunt Jemima" and if you don't see that already, nothing that's said on this forum will get you there.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/centra...alls-cops-black-man-fired-franklin-templeton/


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## C'est Moi (Jun 26, 2020)

StarSong said:


> White women are termed "Karens" when their behavior is entitled, obnoxious, demanding, complaining and oftentimes racist.  A living example is the woman who not only refused to leash her dog in Central Park, but called 911 with the false claim that an African-American male was threatening her and her dog.
> 
> It's not the same thing as "Aunt Jemima" and if you don't see that already, nothing that's said on this forum will get you there.
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/centra...alls-cops-black-man-fired-franklin-templeton/


I know exactly why white women are called Karens, but thanks for playing.   In my world, any name calling is offensive, so stop making excuses for it.   There is no exclusivity to bad behavior, I don't care what color you are.  Maybe black women with attitude should be called "Ernestine."  Would that be OK?


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## StarSong (Jun 26, 2020)

Nothing I say will have any effect on your attitude so I'll stop wasting my time.


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## C'est Moi (Jun 26, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Nothing I say will have any effect on your attitude so I'll stop wasting my time.


Correct.


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## hiraeth2018 (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm not sure if this is the place to address my comments but it does follow the same lines of thinking. I used to live in a community surrounded by antique shops and farms. My house was built in 1920 so my habits of collecting were farm style and old things inside of my home and outside in my garden. Over the years I found myself collecting mammy dolls, tea pots, salt/pepper shakers, etc. My most lucky find was a yard jockey holding a lantern. My intentions were never intended to be derogatory and I am the last person to make incriminating remarks or jokes. Collecting was an attraction, part of my small town upbringing, the hunt and they were part of history. My daughter was dismayed as my mammy doll collection grew.

I have recently moved and downsized, I sold all my collectibles including all my antique furniture, etc. Believe me when I say I did not have any problems getting selling any of my collectibles. Then covid19 came which brought protests, anger, destruction and fear. I've had so much time by myself, arguing with the walls, talking it over with my cat, trying to understand humanity at it's ugliest. I need to be open for change to happen. 

I recently sent an apology to my daughter and one of her coworkers who is black and who had visited my home before I moved. I felt I needed to apologize especially to him for my point of view/my collectibles. As innocent as I felt it was in reality it was not. I was lucky as my apology was well received. I don't believe in the destruction of history. It's the only way to learn and go forward. But these "collectibles", these statues, names of teams, products, etc. are all part of our history. We should not deny it... we should not hang onto it...


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## Keesha (Jun 26, 2020)

We learn from our mistakes and trying to erase part of history is denying our humanity as imperfect


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## Sunny (Jun 26, 2020)

Although, I have to wonder, why the name Karen for this kind of behavior?  Was there a TV character or something like that named Karen?


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## Pepper (Jun 26, 2020)

Came from a Dane Cook routine:

*"The friend nobody likes*
*Dane Cook*
*Album I Did My Best - Greatest Hits*
There is one person, in every group of friends, that nobody ******* likes
You basically keep them there, to hate their guts
When that person is not around the rest of your little base camp
Your hobby, is cutting that person down

Example: "Karen, is always a douchebag."

Every group has a Karen and she is always a bag of douche
And when she's not around, you just look at each other and say
"God, Karen, she's such a douchebag!"
Until she walks up, then you're like

"Hey, what's up Kar-? Kar-. What's up Kar-?"

There's always that one person -  "
https://genius.com/Dane-cook-the-friend-nobody-likes-lyrics


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## Pepper (Jun 26, 2020)

@Sunny 
Thanks for reminding me.  I meant to search for the origin of "Karen" today.


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## Aunt Bea (Jun 26, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Although, I have to wonder, why the name Karen for this kind of behavior?  Was there a TV character or something like that named Karen?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)


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## MarciKS (Jun 26, 2020)

Wow. And they get mad at white folks for being racist? I have never used the "N" word in my life yet I have always heard the term "cracker" and whatever else they've come up with. It isn't necessary to be racist. But people anymore need a reason to fight. Doesn't matter how big or small the reason. Just as long as there is one.


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## Sunny (Jun 26, 2020)

Hmmm.... well, I have a daughter named Karen, who doesn't behave like that at all.  Her name was sort of a family joke for a while as she had 5 friends named Karen!  That was obviously the big name for girls in the 60's.  But aside from being a ridiculously popular name, I never heard any of that negative stuff about it until very recently.


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## JimBob1952 (Jun 27, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Hmmm.... well, I have a daughter named Karen, who doesn't behave like that at all.  Her name was sort of a family joke for a while as she had 5 friends named Karen!  That was obviously the big name for girls in the 60's.  But aside from being a ridiculously popular name, I never heard any of that negative stuff about it until very recently.



First girlfriend was named Karen, will always have a soft spot for that name.  

I know the meme and all but I just don't see much of that behavior in real life.


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## OneEyedDiva (Jun 28, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I know exactly why white women are called Karens, but thanks for playing.   In my world, any name calling is offensive, so stop making excuses for it.   There is no exclusivity to bad behavior, I don't care what color you are.  Maybe black women with attitude should be called "Ernestine."  Would that be OK?


Just so ya know....I never heard of White women being called Karens so did not know there was derogatory intent.  Like I always say...."ya learn something new every day!"  @StarSong


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