# Gun Sales Soaring



## Don M. (Aug 31, 2020)

Something that is Not being mentioned in the news is the sharp rise in gun purchases....much of that being among first time gun owners.  2020 is seeing the sharpest rise is gun sales in the nations history.  Between the violence taking place in many of the cities, and the reduction in support for the police, many people are preparing to have to defend themselves and their homes.  Between this pandemic, and the senseless protests/riots, 2020 is a really bad year.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2020/08/gun-sales-records-smashed-2020/


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## win231 (Aug 31, 2020)

The reasons you mentioned are not the only ones.  With more & more restrictions, people who don't necessarily want to own guns are realizing that they may wish they had - when it's too late.


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## applecruncher (Aug 31, 2020)

You're wrong @Don M.
Soaring gun sales HAS been reported many times... Washington Post, USA Today, New York Times to name a few.
Also on the news many times.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 31, 2020)

Bad scenario: people buying guns with no idea about safety or how to shoot.


applecruncher said:


> You're wrong @Don M.
> Soaring gun sales HAS been reported many times... Washington Post, USA Today, New York Times to name a few.
> Also on the news many times.


Very true. I have gone to the store many times when there was not a single box of ammo. The Hillary scare was a good. The military bought up al the 9mm ammo.


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## MarciKS (Aug 31, 2020)

That's just what the US needs is more senseless death.


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## Warrigal (Sep 1, 2020)

Not a good omen for 2021.


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## jimbowho (Sep 1, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> You're wrong @Don M.
> Soaring gun sales HAS been reported many times... Washington Post, USA Today, New York Times to name a few.
> Also on the news many times.


First I've heard of this.. So maybe he's not wrong.


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## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

jimbowho said:


> First I've heard of this.. So maybe he's not wrong.


What? Let me get this right; so if YOU don’t hear a piece of newsworthy information, it might not exist?
Does that even sound right to you?


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## old medic (Sep 1, 2020)

Try finding reloading components....


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## Aunt Bea (Sep 1, 2020)

A spike in gun sales isn't news but drilling down to see who is buying them is.

From what I've read there has been a substantial increase in gun purchases by minorities who distrust law enforcement and feel a need to take responsibility for protecting themselves and their families as civil unrest around the country continues to grow.


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## applecruncher (Sep 1, 2020)

jimbowho said:


> First I've heard of this.. So maybe he's not wrong.



No, he IS wrong.
Just because you personally haven't heard/seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
The increase in gun sales and speculation about the reasons has been reported many times, for many months.


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## IrisSenior (Sep 1, 2020)

It looks like some are profiting from this pandemic.


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 1, 2020)

Just have to live in a small city where, 95% of the time, the only siren heard is that of an ambulance...........not law enforcement. No police helicopter overhead at night, with a spotlight on an area. 

Like where we live.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

I have no problem with people arming their self, but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check

What happens many times over is that guns are sold privately and no checks ever happen. There is a lot that can be done to help secure gun control, but the lobbyists have paid both sides lots of money to their committees to prevent this from happening.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

Where I live, there is now only a chief of police.  No officers.  They all had to quit per defunding, I guess.  
it is necessary and a right to have arms to protect oneself and one's family, if they have one.
My hope is all the deaths from gun violence will not lead to gun restriction and gun confiscation.  
I know I've said this before but WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE 2ND AMENDMENT!
If this topples, the 1st amendment will soon follow!
THIS CANNOT HAPPEN!

911 is right.   I have a Colt S/A but I would like to take a gun safety course as I'm alone.  That's a good idea!
I don't like what the NRA has become but they have the power to protect the 2nd amendment.  I may join them just because of that.


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## Don M. (Sep 1, 2020)

The more these violent protests occur, and the less that the police are able to do to control this stupidity, the more that honest people will stand to lose.  Hence, more are starting to take actions on their own.  How this plays out, over time, is another potential problem for everyone.  

Consider this....Yes, there have been a half dozen police related incidents that Must be investigated and resolved...and any cops involved punished accordingly.  However, for every cop related killing of a Black, there are dozens or hundreds of cases where Blacks killed other Blacks....Where is the protest against this???

Also....Every year, dozens of police are killed by criminals while the police are attempting to arrest a criminal.  Has anyone ever heard of a Protest occurring because a cop was killed by a thug????


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## rgp (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> I have no problem with people arming their self, but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check
> 
> What happens many times over is that guns are sold privately and no checks ever happen. There is a lot that can be done to help secure gun control, but the lobbyists have paid both sides lots of money to their committees to prevent this from happening.




  "but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check"

  The background check I support 100%........

But the safety course ? What does that actually mean ?

Anyone who owns a gun, and at some point, ... points that weapon at another person . Does so with the intention of inflicting harm/death. For whatever reason ? and at that point it's all about the person , his/her intention, his/her emotional state. How many actual , accidental gun deaths do we hear of ? [ discounting those that involve kids] I mean take it to the range a few times p/year , and a person will learn to operate/use it.

I am much more concerned with the mental/emotional state of "new" or "older" gun owners .

I could go out today and buy a big gun/little gun, and never use it against another person, unless they kick in that front door. But at one time I did know a man, that bragged about his collection, and his accuracy. But that same man tried to shoot down an airplane because he didn't like the banner it was towing. Point being, he knew everything there was to know about guns .... period ! ........ But on occasion he lost his sense of responsibility owning one ........ or in his case several.

With your law enforcement background, perhaps you know of more 'accidental' shootings than the rest of us.


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## jimbowho (Sep 1, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> No, he IS wrong.
> Just because you personally haven't heard/seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
> The increase in gun sales and speculation about the reasons has been reported many times, for many months.


Well since you are Carnak the magnificent then it must be true to life. I thank you for your all knowing wisdom, and appreciate the corrections.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Don M. said:


> The more these violent protests occur, and the less that the police are able to do to control this stupidity, the more that honest people will stand to lose.  Hence, more are starting to take actions on their own.  How this plays out, over time, is another potential problem for everyone.
> 
> Consider this....Yes, there have been a half dozen police related incidents that Must be investigated and resolved...and any cops involved punished accordingly.  However, for every cop related killing of a Black, there are dozens or hundreds of cases where Blacks killed other Blacks....Where is the protest against this???
> 
> Also....Every year, dozens of police are killed by criminals while the police are attempting to arrest a criminal.  Has anyone ever heard of a Protest occurring because a cop was killed by a thug????


My concern is for the cops that are being killed. At one time, if someone killed a cop, they would go on the run. Today, they just continue doing what they have been doing. When retired Captain David Dorn in St. Louis was killed while trying to protect his friend’s business, it really upset me. There was absolutely no reason to kill this man.

I believe a total of 11 officers have been killed that are riot related and over 400 injured. Not all police murders have seen suspects being arrested. Lack of respect for authority is prevailing in many large cities. It’s only a matter of time when these fascists move to the suburbs.


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## Sunny (Sep 1, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> A spike in gun sales isn't news but drilling down to see who is buying them is.
> 
> From what I've read there has been a substantial increase in gun purchases by minorities who distrust law enforcement and feel a need to take responsibility for protecting themselves and their families as civil unrest around the country continues to grow.



I fear we are morphing into two different countries, which will be at war with each other. In other words, Civil War II.


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## Rosemarie (Sep 1, 2020)

Gun laws in Britain are stricter than in America, but more and more people are carrying knives. There was a time when all men carried a sword, and a lady never went out without an armed man at her side. We seem to be going backwards!
I was recently accosted by a man for no reason (he was under the influence of something), and I now carry my walking stick with me when I go out. I don't need it for walking but it could prove useful as a weapon.


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## Sunny (Sep 1, 2020)

> My concern is for the cops that are being killed.



So, 911, this means you have no concern for the innocent people being killed on a daily basis by rogue cops?

My concern is for any innocent people being killed by trigger-happy maniacs, whether those maniacs are wearing a uniform or not.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

rgp said:


> "but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check"
> 
> The background check I support 100%........
> 
> ...


There’s a lot more to a safety course than you may realize. Have you ever taken one that was sanctioned and includes such things as; suicide prevention, domestic violence and keeping your guns safe, plus the safety part of the course? The course that we handle here in our area lasts about 4-4 1/2 hours. It’s pretty deep, but when the person leaves, they take with them a wealth of information and handouts.

My advice to everyone that takes a gun safety course is to always take a course that includes the things that I mentioned and to make sure to only take a course with fewer people, say no more than 6 people in the class, at least for the range part where you actually get to shoot your gun. There is too much chance of a mistake happening with too many people at the range.


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## Lakeland living (Sep 1, 2020)

I totally support those that own weapons. the police cannot be everywhere at once. BUT if you have not trained with weapon use, you can be a danger to yourself and loved ones around you. Learn how to use your weapon, practice and use common sense, not using common sense can get you killed or someone close by.  
There are a few things you can do to make you and yours less attractive. 
    Cameras, they work wonders and are cheaper than a gun. I have dogs, no one gets too close without them knowing.
     First rule, pay very close attention to what is going on around you. If something is building...get out.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> There’s a lot more to a safety course than you may realize. Have you ever taken one that was sanctioned and includes such things as; suicide prevention, domestic violence and keeping your guns safe, plus the safety part of the course? The course that we handle here in our area lasts about 4-4 1/2 hours. It’s pretty deep, but when the person leaves, they take with them a wealth of information and handouts.
> 
> My advice to everyone that takes a gun safety course is to always take a course that includes the things that I mentioned and to make sure to only take a course with fewer people, say no more than 6 people in the class, at least for the range part where you actually get to shoot your gun. There is too much chance of a mistake happening with too many people at the range.


911:  Who do I contact for a gun safety course?  a University?  sheriff's dept?  Police? NRA?


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## win231 (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> There’s a lot more to a safety course than you may realize. Have you ever taken one that was sanctioned and includes such things as; suicide prevention, domestic violence and keeping your guns safe, plus the safety part of the course? The course that we handle here in our area lasts about 4-4 1/2 hours. It’s pretty deep, but when the person leaves, they take with them a wealth of information and handouts.
> 
> My advice to everyone that takes a gun safety course is to always take a course that includes the things that I mentioned and to make sure to only take a course with fewer people, say no more than 6 people in the class, at least for the range part where you actually get to shoot your gun. There is too much chance of a mistake happening with too many people at the range.


I'm not a genius & I've owned guns, shot competitively & handloaded my own ammo for 44 years.  I've never taken a safety course or had any "Training."
When gun accidents occur, it's due to recklessness, stupidity & a lack of common sense, and NO safety course will convert an idiot into a responsible person.  A gun comes with a manual with all necessary safety warnings.  When I bought my first gun, I simply read the manual - just as when I bought anything else that could be dangerous.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> 911:  Who do I contact for a gun safety course?  a University?  sheriff's dept?  Police? NRA?


Normally, you should be able to call any sporting goods store that sells guns and they should have a list of courses in the area. Some sheriff’s departments will also have that information and some even run their own course.

Like I already stated, be sure it’s not just a course where you go and listen to someone just talking. You need a course that covers all aspects of gun safety, including how to use your weapon and you get to shoot it on a range during the course. If it’s NRA sanctioned, you can be sure it’s a good course, but others offer good courses as well.

It’s also important to learn how to disassemble your weapon and clean it.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> Normally, you should be able to call any sporting goods store that sells guns and they should have a list of courses in the area. Some sheriff’s departments will also have that information and some even run their own course.
> 
> Like I already stated, be sure it’s not just a course where you go and listen to someone just talking. You need a course that covers all aspects of gun safety, including how to use your weapon and you get to shoot it on a range during the course. If it’s NRA sanctioned, you can be sure it’s a good course, but others offer good courses as well.
> 
> It’s also important to learn how to disassemble your weapon and clean it.


Thanks!  Will do!


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## AnnieA (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> I have no problem with people arming their self, but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check



I took a six hour class for a carry license and learned a lot.  My instructor told several people during class that they were not good candidates to carry. She said her husband doesn't because of his temper.  They have guns at home and enjoy range time, but he does not carry.  She also told a woman who said she was just going to use hers to threaten someone in a self-defense situation that she didn't need to carry.

Once I had the class certificate, I had to go through the background check, get fingerprinted at the Mississippi Highway Patrol to get the permit.


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## AnnieA (Sep 1, 2020)

Don M. said:


> Something that is Not being mentioned in the news is the sharp rise in gun purchases....much of that being among first time gun owners.  ...
> 
> https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2020/08/gun-sales-records-smashed-2020/



I saw stories early on about people buying guns when it became obvious that the pandemic was about to reach the US.  The story I saw featured New York state ...not NYC... and people were waiting in a line that extended a block away from the gun store.


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## rgp (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> There’s a lot more to a safety course than you may realize. Have you ever taken one that was sanctioned and includes such things as; suicide prevention, domestic violence and keeping your guns safe, plus the safety part of the course? The course that we handle here in our area lasts about 4-4 1/2 hours. It’s pretty deep, but when the person leaves, they take with them a wealth of information and handouts.
> 
> My advice to everyone that takes a gun safety course is to always take a course that includes the things that I mentioned and to make sure to only take a course with fewer people, say no more than 6 people in the class, at least for the range part where you actually get to shoot your gun. There is too much chance of a mistake happening with too many people at the range.




  "There’s a lot more to a safety course than you may realize. Have you ever taken one that was sanctioned and includes such things as; suicide prevention, domestic violence and keeping your guns safe, plus the safety part of the course? The course that we handle here in our area lasts about 4-4 1/2 hours. It’s pretty deep, but when the person leaves, they take with them a wealth of information and handouts. "

 But here again, most of what you are talking about is the mental/emotional state of the gun owner. These things really have little to do with the gun itself. 

Can a person really be taught ...... not to commit domestic violence? I have my doubts , if a person is likely to commit domestic violence, he/she can do that with a baseball bat.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> Normally, you should be able to call any sporting goods store that sells guns and they should have a list of courses in the area. Some sheriff’s departments will also have that information and some even run their own course.
> 
> Like I already stated, be sure it’s not just a course where you go and listen to someone just talking. You need a course that covers all aspects of gun safety, including how to use your weapon and you get to shoot it on a range during the course. If it’s NRA sanctioned, you can be sure it’s a good course, but others offer good courses as well.
> 
> It’s also important to learn how to disassemble your weapon and clean it.


Did it!  i'm signed up for a course on the shooting range!  Thanks!


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> I took a six hour class for a carry license and learned a lot.  My instructor told several people during class that they were not good candidates to carry. She said her husband doesn't because of his temper.  They have guns at home and enjoy range time, but he does not carry.  She also told a woman who said she was just going to use hers to threaten someone in a self-defense situation that she didn't need to carry.
> 
> Once I had the class certificate, I had to go through the background check, get fingerprinted at the Mississippi Highway Patrol to get the permit.


I tried to  take a revolver into Canada and they took away my gun at the border.  i was traveling alone to Alaska and only wanted it as protection from grizzlies but no go.  I camped out for almost a year by myself up there with no gun.  They mailed it back to me 2 years later though.


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## win231 (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Where I live, there is now only a chief of police.  No officers.  They all had to quit per defunding, I guess.
> it is necessary and a right to have arms to protect oneself and one's family, if they have one.
> My hope is all the deaths from gun violence will not lead to gun restriction and gun confiscation.
> I know I've said this before but WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE 2ND AMENDMENT!
> ...


Re:  the Colt S.A.  Just a reminder:  If you load it, make sure to load only 5 rounds & keep the chamber in front of the hammer empty.
This explains why:


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## Nathan (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> I have no problem with people arming their self, but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check
> 
> What happens many times over is that guns are sold privately and no checks ever happen. There is a lot that can be done to help secure gun control, but the lobbyists have paid both sides lots of money to their committees to prevent this from happening.


Here in California if you're not LE a gun owner safety course is required, has to get a DOJ and wait 10 days. Private gun sales are required to be handled by an FFL.  That in essence is/was the Brady bill, which I thought had been enacted, but none of those provisions are in effect nationally.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

win231 said:


> Re:  the Colt S.A.  Just a reminder:  If you load it, make sure to load only 5 rounds & keep the chamber in front of the hammer empty.
> This explains why:


Thanks for  that!


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## ClassicRockr (Sep 1, 2020)

My wife has her own Smith & Wesson 9mm handgun. I had Small Arms Training in the Navy and still, to this day, remember everything I learned. I've shown her how to load the clip, insert the clip, hold the gun and fire. Even bought/installed a laser on the barrel to make it easier for her to shoot/hit the target. We both shoot the 9mm as well as the Ruger 10-22 we have.


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## Nathan (Sep 1, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> A spike in gun sales isn't news but drilling down to see who is buying them is.
> 
> From what I've read there has been a substantial increase in gun purchases by minorities who distrust law enforcement and feel a need to take responsibility for protecting themselves and their families as civil unrest around the country continues to grow.


That is certainly understandable, considering the lack of responsible leadership in this country.     I don't know what has happened to some law enforcement agencies, training seems to be severely lacking in the use of force.  Better training would be more cost effective than dealing with increased lawsuits arising from shooting unarmed suspects in the back.


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## Don M. (Sep 1, 2020)

Here's the FBI summary of police officers who lost their lives in 2019.  Reading the "details", is there Any wonder why police react the way they do when confronted by an uncooperative or belligerent suspect?   To me, it's a wonder that most police don't seek other employment.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...forcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty


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## Pecos (Sep 1, 2020)

I continue to be appalled at the kinds of guns that ordinary untrained people are buying. Instead of being steered toward reliable, simple, easy to operate, sensible double action 38 caliber revolvers, they are pushed into buying complicated high powered automatics that they will never practice with enough to be proficient. Or they are buying these little cheap 380 automatics, because they are "cute."


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## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

Ching Ching....     
Are they more expensive?


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## Pecos (Sep 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Ching Ching....
> Are they more expensive?


Good revolvers are about the same as good automatics, and they will last about ten times as long as well as being much safer for the average person.


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## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

Pecos said:


> Good revolvers are about the same as good automatics, and they will last about ten times as long as well as being much safer for the average person.


Thank you.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Sunny said:


> So, 911, this means you have no concern for the innocent people being killed on a daily basis by rogue cops?
> 
> My concern is for any innocent people being killed by trigger-happy maniacs, whether those maniacs are wearing a uniform or not.


No, it does not mean that and rogue cops are not killing innocent people on a “daily basis.”


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## fmdog44 (Sep 1, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> No, he IS wrong.
> Just because you personally haven't heard/seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
> The increase in gun sales and speculation about the reasons has been reported many times, for many months.


Define "spike". An increase is more likely the truth if at all.


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## fmdog44 (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> 911:  Who do I contact for a gun safety course?  a University?  sheriff's dept?  Police? NRA?


All states have them and gun dealers often offer them,


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Sunny, these two guys weren't "innocent"!
> 
> You need to read the entire story about Floyd. Officers weren't called to where he was at for nothing. Neck restraint, for resisting, has been done for years. Just like a knee on the back for someone resisting.
> The other guy, his family paints him as an angel, but law enforcement sure don't. He was order to stop, but kept on walking. If a person, of any race, doesn't follow orders from an officer, what's the officer to do..........let the person simply get into their vehicle and drive off. Apparently, yes.
> ...


George Floyd should have been given immediate medical attention now that we know that when he was first seated in the back of the police car he already had enough Fentanyl and other narcotics that could have caused his death and why then he was saying, “I can’t breathe.” He should have received at least 1, if not 2 doses of Narcan, but the police probably did not know that he had dosed up on these opiates. I don’t know if anyone else is aware of it, but Derek Chauvin’s attorneys are seeking to have his murder charges dismissed because of this.


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## Sunny (Sep 1, 2020)

ClassicRockr said:


> Sunny, these two guys weren't "innocent"!
> 
> You need to read the entire story about Floyd. Officers weren't called to where he was at for nothing. Neck restraint, for resisting, has been done for years. Just like a knee on the back for someone resisting.
> The other guy, his family paints him as an angel, but law enforcement sure don't. He was order to stop, but kept on walking. If a person, of any race, doesn't follow orders from an officer, what's the officer to do..........let the person simply get into their vehicle and drive off. Apparently, yes.
> ...



Classic, they weren't innocent?  Based on what irrefutable evidence?  The fact that the police had to come up with some justification for their racism and murderous knee-jerk reactions, on about a 12-year-old emotional level?  The incredible whoppers they come up with, each time(!) could win some kind of fiction award. And you claim that the suspects and their lawyers are the ones changing the facts?  Even though all those videos plainly show, over and over again, brutal attacks by police who were clearly in no danger.

I always thought that in this country, a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law.  Silly me.  Apparently, what we have now is a dictatorship staffed by a blue-clad execution squad. Why waste time with trials and courts? Let's just declare ourselves the heroic good guys, and go out and shoot the "bad guys" whenever we feel like it, then come up with a justification that would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic.

Nobody says these shooting victims are angels. They are the usual mixed bag, the same as all of us. But whatever crimes they may have committed in the past, whatever they were thinking of doing in the future, at the moment they were shot, they were either sitting, walking away (getting into the police car, at the officer's demand), going for a walk, unarmed, in the "wrong" neighborhood, sitting in a movie theatre, even sitting in their own homes!  The mind boggles.  And the police have the "chutzpah" to try to justify this as self-defense?  Good God.  How heartbreaking that this is what our country has deteriorated to.


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## rgp (Sep 1, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Classicrockr, you are changing the subject. Where did I ever refer to "someone who is resisting or shooting at you to kill you?"
> 
> Read my note again. I said INNOCENT people. And how on earth could an unarmed person with his back turned to the police officer, following the orders the cop just gave him, be a threat?  How can the cop justify shooting him in the back (7 times, yet!)
> 
> ...



   "
Read my note again. I said INNOCENT people. And how on earth could an unarmed person with his back turned to the police officer, following the orders the cop just gave him, be a threat? How can the cop justify shooting him in the back (7 times, yet!)"

   Watch the videos again ..... he wasn't "following the orders given by the cop" ..... He was told told to halt , and he continued walking away toward his car, then, [like a dumb ass] reached into the car. That's when he was IMO rightfully shot seven times.

 The police were called there by his g/friend/ex g/friend on a domestic call. She wanted him removed,gone ..... but no he wasn't hearing any of it, his arrogant ass was going to do exactly what he wanted to do ........ well he paid the price. 

Like all the others, had he behaved in the first place, complied in the second place , he would be walking today.

I do not feel the least bit sorry for him, I am just glad the kids & the officers weren't hurt.


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Nathan said:


> That is certainly understandable, considering the lack of responsible leadership in this country.     I don't know what has happened to some law enforcement agencies, training seems to be severely lacking in the use of force.  Better training would be more cost effective than dealing with increased lawsuits arising from shooting unarmed suspects in the back.


These cities should also worry about the hundreds of lawsuits filed by the business owners and citizens for all the damage and violence of the mobs being allowed to roam the streets and act out in anarchy. Seattle, Portland, Chicago, New York, Kenosha and Minneapolis are probably in the hole tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. I feel bad for their citizens. With all the people leaving their cities and properties being devalued, revenue from taxes will be severely diminished. The last few weeks, we have seen people being murdered by these mobs, whether directly or indirectly. It’s an all around bad situation.

Portland refuses to prosecute and allows them to go bail-free. Would you live there?


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## Nathan (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> These cities should also worry about the hundreds of lawsuits filed by the business owners and citizens for all the damage and violence of the mobs being allowed to roam the streets and act out in anarchy.



There are two elements to the civil unrest related to the numerous police shootings of unarmed blacks:
1. The peaceful demonstrators
2. The looters/rioters

I highly doubt that any of the municipalities affected "allowed" the looters and vandals to roam the streets and create destruction and violence.

I feel for the police officers that have ruined their career and their personal lives because of their inability to appropriately deal with an unarmed suspect.


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## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

Gentlemen, I apoligize for this question being slightly off topic.
(hypothetically)
Is it illegal to own or use brass knuckles?


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## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Gentlemen, I apoligize for this question being slightly off topic.
> (hypothetically)
> Is it illegal to own or use brass knuckles?


In Pennsylvania they are illegal.


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## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> In Pennsylvania they are illegal.


They are in Canada also


----------



## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Gentlemen, I apoligize for this question being slightly off topic.
> (hypothetically)
> Is it illegal to own or use brass knuckles?


Is there a reason this is directed at men only?


----------



## Gaer (Sep 1, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Is there a reason this is directed at men only?


Yes my friend, and if you remember our personal message, and read the  posts on this thread, you will  understand why.  hahaha!
Remember?  the bully?


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 1, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I fear we are morphing into two different countries, which will be at war with each other. In other words, Civil War II.



IMO the thing that is missing is a charismatic leader for the various groups to coalesce around.  

If that person emerges, as has happened in this country and others over the years, it could get very ugly very fast unless they promote a reasonable non-violent agenda for change.

We'll see.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Yes my friend, and if you remember our personal message, and read the  posts on this thread, you will  understand why.  hahaha!
> Remember?  the bully?


Yes I remember you telling me. 
I was going to say I still don’t get it cause I’d answer anyway .......... but if it works for you and makes you feel better, then so be it.


----------



## Aunt Bea (Sep 1, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Gentlemen, I apoligize for this question being slightly off topic.
> (hypothetically)
> Is it illegal to own or use brass knuckles?


It might be easier to explain why you were carrying a sock filled with pennies.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> George Floyd should have been given immediate medical attention now that we know that when he was first seated in the back of the police car he already had enough Fentanyl and other narcotics that could have caused his death and why then he was saying, “I can’t breathe.” He should have received at least 1, if not 2 doses of Narcan, but the police probably did not know that he had dosed up on these opiates. I don’t know if anyone else is aware of it, but Derek Chauvin’s attorneys are seeking to have his murder charges dismissed because of this.


Do you have a link to your sources of information?


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 1, 2020)

Just what we need...more guns! I will say that many of the protests have been peaceful and not senseless at all. Rioting is always senseless but even those sometimes have been instigated.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Just what we need...more guns! I will say that the many of the protests have been peaceful and not senseless at all. Rioting is always senseless but even those sometimes have been instigated.


Completely agree!


----------



## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Pecos said:


> I continue to be appalled at the kinds of guns that ordinary untrained people are buying. Instead of being steered toward reliable, simple, easy to operate, sensible double action 38 caliber revolvers, they are pushed into buying complicated high powered automatics that they will never practice with enough to be proficient. Or they are buying these little cheap 380 automatics, because they are "cute."


The .380 is a nice little pistol that can be very easily concealed and yet is very effective. I carry my 9mm wherever I go.


----------



## 911 (Sep 1, 2020)

Nathan said:


> There are two elements to the civil unrest related to the numerous police shootings of unarmed blacks:
> 1. The peaceful demonstrators
> 2. The looters/rioters
> 
> ...


These looters and rioters that are prosecuted are throwing their life away. These are Federal crimes and getting a job after an employer vets a prospective employee and finds out he/she has served time in a Federal prison, their career is over and all that college money is wasted along with it.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 1, 2020)

Deleted. Asking that question is taking the thread off topic.


----------



## Nathan (Sep 1, 2020)

911 said:


> These looters and rioters that are prosecuted are throwing their life away. These are Federal crimes and getting a job after an employer vets a prospective employee and finds out he/she has served time in a Federal prison, their career is over and all that college money is wasted along with it.


The looters are already criminals, taking advantage of the confusion.  They are the same types that show up to loot when there are earthquakes, hurricanes and widespread firestorms.     The peaceful demonstrators seem to get lumped together with the rioters, in the public eye.   We had a local group do a peaceful protest, no looting, just local college kids marching and supporting their beliefs.   Nobody got to see that on Fox news.

**For the record**    I *am *pro law & order, but not at the expense of constitutional rights. As you know, the police exist to serve the needs of the community that they protect, not visa versa.


----------



## applecruncher (Sep 1, 2020)

Nathan said:


> The peaceful demonstrators seem to get lumped together with the rioters, in the public eye.


This.
Unfortunately this is true.


----------



## Manatee (Sep 1, 2020)

The old story is that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


----------



## Lakeland living (Sep 2, 2020)

Found this interesting, some people are sending a message clearly stating their position.
The police helped to show the protesters the other side of the coin...so to speak. There was a show of possible force. 
https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/06/armed-residents-indiana-crown-point-guns-blm-protest-stare-down/


----------



## CarolfromTX (Sep 2, 2020)

Lakeland living said:


> Found this interesting, some people are sending a message clearly stating their position.
> The police helped to show the protesters the other side of the coin...so to speak. There was a show of possible force.
> https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/06/armed-residents-indiana-crown-point-guns-blm-protest-stare-down/



I'd say that's exactly what kept the protest peaceful.


----------



## Sunny (Sep 2, 2020)

Nathan said:


> The looters are already criminals, taking advantage of the confusion.  They are the same types that show up to loot when there are earthquakes, hurricanes and widespread firestorms.     The peaceful demonstrators seem to get lumped together with the rioters, in the public eye.   We had a local group do a peaceful protest, no looting, just local college kids marching and supporting their beliefs.   Nobody got to see that on Fox news.
> 
> **For the record**    I *am *pro law & order, but not at the expense of constitutional rights. As you know, the police exist to serve the needs of the community that they protect, not visa versa.



Well said, Nathan!

In addition, I am horrified at the way this has been turned into an issue of "Are you with the police or against them?"  Why all of a sudden does it have to be one or the other?

Like most people, I support and respect the police, as a necessary contingent of civilized life. Yes, if someone was breaking into my home, I woud of course call the police.  If a crazed person was running around shooting and killing people at random, I would expect the police to stop him, doing whatever is necessary. I am impressed by the heroic actions of many police officers, taking personal risks in order to rescue people in dangerous situations.

None of that makes it OK for "rogue cops" to decide that it's OK to shoot people in the back or strangle them when they are already down on the ground struggling to breathe, usually with no reason at all. No reason except race, that is. The racial element in this cannot be ignored; it's like the 600 pound gorilla in the room.  

I have to wonder what motivates anyone to defend this behavior, which smears the good reputation the U.S. police have generally enjoyed with most of the public. Yes, I know, back in the 60's, student protestors called them "pigs" and baited them with taunts every chance they got. But usually, the police responded like professionals trusted to restore law and order. They did not go around firing at those kids for no reason, often killing them, and then try to proclaim themselves heroes. 

There is a big difference between keeping the peace, and behaving like a goon squad. Why let the bad apples take over and ruin the reputation of a formerly honorable group of people, entrusted to help the public remain safe, and all of a sudden turn into an execution squad? Could it be that there is nothing wrong with the "police" per se, but that this institution has been infiltrated by racists and hatemongers?


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> I'd say that's exactly what kept the protest peaceful.


Can you explain what you mean exactly?


----------



## Pepper (Sep 2, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Deleted. Asking that question is taking the thread off topic.


especially since it's being ignored   
ps, don't think it was off-topic to ask for clarification.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

Pepper said:


> especially since it's being ignored
> ps, don't think it was off-topic to ask for clarification.


Neither do I and to be brutally honest, cause I actually am, it pisses me off when people come in here and add posts like they’ve got some kind of inside information that nobody else knows about and when you call them it, they completely bale.

They act like we can’t distinguish between actual facts and their poorly disguised racism which frankly I find disgusting! If you’re a racist then have the balls to claim your truth. Don’t come here on this board playing these stupid lame-ass ugly head games like the rest of us are gullible idiots. The only thing you prove is how cowardly you really are.

Note: This is not directed at any single member.


----------



## CarolfromTX (Sep 2, 2020)

I meant that the presence of guns likely deterred the crowd from getting...ahem...rowdy.


----------



## rgp (Sep 2, 2020)

911 said:


> George Floyd should have been given immediate medical attention now that we know that when he was first seated in the back of the police car he already had enough Fentanyl and other narcotics that could have caused his death and why then he was saying, “I can’t breathe.” He should have received at least 1, if not 2 doses of Narcan, but the police probably did not know that he had dosed up on these opiates. I don’t know if anyone else is aware of it, but Derek Chauvin’s attorneys are seeking to have his murder charges dismissed because of this.




  "Derek Chauvin’s attorneys are seeking to have his murder charges dismissed because of this. "

  I hope they are sucessful.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Sep 2, 2020)

Somebody explain why having all kinds of ,people armed with weapons is a good thing?


----------



## 911 (Sep 2, 2020)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Somebody explain why having all kinds of ,people armed with weapons is a good thing?


Explain what you mean by: "all kinds of people."


----------



## Sunny (Sep 2, 2020)

This conversation is typical of what's going on right now in this nation, on a mega-level.  Neither side is talking to or responding to the other side. We are all talking only to those who agree with us.

And that's the tragedy, folks.


----------



## old medic (Sep 2, 2020)

911 said:


> The .380 is a nice little pistol that can be very easily concealed and yet is very effective. I carry my 9mm wherever I go.


Is the 11 for the mag capacity???? 
Wife and Daughter CCW is the LCP 380...
My Makarov 9x18 has been a trusted companion over 25 years...


----------



## Gaer (Sep 2, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Neither do I and to be brutally honest, cause I actually am, it pisses me off when people come in here and add posts like they’ve got some kind of inside information that nobody else knows about and when you call them it, they completely bale.
> 
> They act like we can’t distinguish between actual facts and their poorly disguised racism which frankly I find disgusting! If you’re a racist then have the balls to claim your truth. Don’t come here on this board playing these stupid lame-ass ugly head games like the rest of us are gullible idiots. The only thing you prove is how cowardly you really are.
> 
> Note: This is not directed at any single member.


Keesha, Were you refering to 911's post number 47?  (with all due respect to your opinion)

I don't have a link either but I saw this too, a few times on Fox News.  I think it was on Sean Hannity and again on the Tucker Carlson show.
Both of these announcers I've come to trust.
Law enforcement officers are trained to deal in facts, not suppositions. 
Positive proof, (video of him inside the vehicle saying he couldn't breathe) is necessary to establish a fact.
This was shown multiple times on at least this one news channel.


----------



## Gaer (Sep 2, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Just what we need...more guns! I will say that many of the protests have been peaceful and not senseless at all. Rioting is always senseless but even those sometimes have been instigated.


(with all due respect to your opinion) Can you look at the topic of guns from more than one side?  Try to look at all six sides.  How can guns be blamed for what is happening by the mobs? Do you blame knives?  all the inanimate objects which can be used in violence?
Please try to look at the big picture.  Study the history of nations who's armament was confiscated.  
After the ways to defend our freedoms are taken from us our freedom of speech will be  the next to be taken away!
I'm not kidding.  This is already in the works in the minds of man!  Marxist groups are already planning this. 
I know this one little paragraph isn't going to change your mind, or anyone's, but try to look at this from varied viewpoints, if you can.
It's so imparative we defend the U.S. Constitution!


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Keesha, Were you refering to 911's post number 47?  (with all due respect to your opinion)
> 
> I don't have a link either but I saw this too, a few times on Fox News.  I think it was on Sean Hannity and again on the Tucker Carlson show.
> Both of these announcers I've come to trust.
> ...


I’m not posting to any particular poster which I’ve already mentioned. 

I’m talking , in general, about members who write posts about apparent facts that nobody else can view but are expected to be believed. If people are bringing in new information to a subject that’s already been discussed in length, then they should add links or at least list the source they got the information from because sadly other people looking for any reason to justify racial murder will support it with no references whatsoever since it fits in with their mindset. ‘Birds of a feather’ so to speak.

That’s what ‘fair’ debating is about. If you can’t show proof of your statements and conclusions then it merely looks like BS or plain animosity. You saying you saw it too doesn’t make it fact. I’d like you to prove what you are talking about otherwise I call it BULL!


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

Gaer said:


> (with all due respect to your opinion) Can you look at the topic of guns from more than one side?  Try to look at all six sides.  How can guns be blamed for what is happening by the mobs? Do you blame knives?  all the inanimate objects which can be used in violence?


What six sides are there? If someone gets furious and wants to cause the largest damage possible then they aren’t going to reach for a knife. They might get hurt. A gun can kill far more people in the shortest period of time. If everyone in one country thinks the same way, then the danger is increased hundred fold .


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

Nobody wants to produce their source of information. I can understand why.


----------



## win231 (Sep 2, 2020)

Keesha said:


> What six sides are there? If someone gets furious and wants to cause the largest damage possible then they aren’t going to reach for a knife. They might get hurt. A gun can kill far more people in the shortest period of time. If everyone in one country thinks the same way, then the danger is increased hundred fold .


So....the concern is "How many people can be killed in the shortest period of time."
Then incidents like these should concern you more than guns:
Oklahoma City bombing in 1995:  168 killed, over 680 injured in less than one second:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

87 killed in France by terrorists using a truck:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack


----------



## Gaer (Sep 2, 2020)

911, classic rocker or RGP:  What is your opinion on concealed weapon permits?  Are they or will they be necessary?  
If  one is issued in a specific state,it it good in all continental states?  Thanks.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 2, 2020)

win231 said:


> So....the concern is "How many people can be killed in the shortest period of time."
> Then incidents like these should concern you more than guns:
> Oklahoma City bombing in 1995:  168 killed, over 680 injured in less than one second:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
> ...




No win, the concern is how easy and widely accepted firearms are.  The average outraged human who wants to cause damage is more likely to reach for a gun rather than figuring how to make a bomb or jump in a truck and run people over.

Just how often do you read about an angry person driving down a sidewalk or making bombs to kill others? Not often whereas owning a gun is almost as commonplace as owning a dog.

That’s what I’m saying.


----------



## old medic (Sep 2, 2020)

Gaer said:


> 911, classic rocker or RGP:  What is your opinion on concealed weapon permits?  Are they or will they be necessary?
> If  one is issued in a specific state,it it good in all continental states?  Thanks.



Well Im not listed but will say I agree to them, and consider them a necessity.... I,   the wife and daughter all have ours...
Here in NC its a safety and reviewing laws and responsibility you must follow, also a major background check goes with it..
Then the local Sheriff must approve it..... and must be renewed every 5 years.
As for other states.... not all carry reciprocity to every state.... and you must double check for were you travel....


----------



## Gaer (Sep 2, 2020)

old medic said:


> Well Im not listed but will say I agree to them, and consider them a necessity.... I,   the wife and daughter all have ours...
> Here in NC its a safety and reviewing laws and responsibility you must follow, also a major background check goes with it..
> Then the local Sheriff must approve it..... and must be renewed every 5 years.
> As for other states.... not all carry reciprocity to every state.... and you must double check for were you travel....


Thanks, old medic!


----------



## rgp (Sep 3, 2020)

Gaer said:


> 911, classic rocker or RGP:  What is your opinion on concealed weapon permits?  Are they or will they be necessary?
> If  one is issued in a specific state,it it good in all continental states?  Thanks.




If by necessary you mean "required" by law ? I believe they already are. If you mean necessary due to the rise in crime ? I'ts getting there.

I believe the permit, is good in all states ............ I'm sure there are those here more informed than I, so like you, I'll await their reply.


----------



## Lakeland living (Sep 3, 2020)

Gaer said:


> (with all due respect to your opinion) Can you look at the topic of guns from more than one side?  Try to look at all six sides.  How can guns be blamed for what is happening by the mobs? Do you blame knives?  all the inanimate objects which can be used in violence?
> Please try to look at the big picture.  Study the history of nations who's armament was confiscated.
> After the ways to defend our freedoms are taken from us our freedom of speech will be  the next to be taken away!
> I'm not kidding.  This is already in the works in the minds of man!  Marxist groups are already planning this.
> ...


An open mind, facts, and proof Gaer.


----------



## fuzzybuddy (Sep 3, 2020)

"All kinds" means people with multiple agendas, and degrees of gun proficiency. And please don't read anything  other than that into it.
Still, nobody has said why flooding the populace with weapons is a good thing>


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 3, 2020)

rgp said:


> If by necessary you mean "required" by law ? I believe they already are. If you mean necessary due to the rise in crime ? I'ts getting there.
> 
> I believe the permit, is good in all states ............ I'm sure there are those here more informed than I, so like you, I'll await their reply.



CC permits are good ONLY in the state in which they are issued, unless a state has formal reciprocity with the issuing state.


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 3, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well said, Nathan!
> 
> In addition, I am horrified at the way this has been turned into an issue of "Are you with the police or against them?"  Why all of a sudden does it have to be one or the other?
> 
> ...



Well said, Sunny.  I agree.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> especially since it's being ignored
> ps, don't think it was off-topic to ask for clarification.


By the way, thank you for that. 
Much appreciated.


----------



## win231 (Sep 3, 2020)

Keesha said:


> No win, the concern is how easy and widely accepted firearms are.  The average outraged human who wants to cause damage is more likely to reach for a gun rather than figuring how to make a bomb or jump in a truck and run people over.
> 
> Just how often do you read about an angry person driving down a sidewalk or making bombs to kill others? Not often whereas owning a gun is almost as commonplace as owning a dog.
> 
> That’s what I’m saying.


As long as there are humans on the planet, there will be crime, angry people & crazy people.  Always have & always will be.
All I can do is protect me & my loved ones.  I can't change what can't be changed.  I can't fix the world; no one can.
And it's not my fault (or any responsible gun owner's fault) that there are crazy people.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 3, 2020)

win231 said:


> As long as there are humans on the planet, there will be crime, angry people & crazy people.  Always have & always will be.
> All I can do is protect me & my loved ones.  I can't change what can't be changed.  I can't fix the world; no one can.
> And it's not my fault (or any responsible gun owner's fault) that there are crazy people.


Nobody was asking you to fix it win nor do I know how many armed crazy people there are either but we both know, ‘that’ wasn’t the issue.


----------



## 911 (Sep 3, 2020)

Gaer said:


> 911, classic rocker or RGP:  What is your opinion on concealed weapon permits?  Are they or will they be necessary?
> If  one is issued in a specific state,it it good in all continental states?  Thanks.


I prefer people carry concealed weapons compared to open carry for obvious reasons. Here in PA, there is a process that is required to obtain a concealed permit. Concealed permits are not good from state to state, but there are some states that do reciprocate with one another. I do recommend people that are able to handle a weapon to CC.


----------



## Gaer (Sep 3, 2020)

Thank you gentlemen, for your answers.  They are much appreciated!


----------



## MsFox (Sep 3, 2020)

@Gaer If you just want a home self-defense gun, a shotgun is best. Handguns will require some training and not just safety, you must be able to hit your target and know your range. Another thing to ask yourself is if you could pull the trigger and at what point. If you have never watched anyone die, this is for me the most important thing to resolve in your mind. It is worst to have a gun and not use it and have the intruder use it on you. I have never been a fan of the 223 semi-auto military style rife. My choice in a rife is a 30/30 lever action for home defense if you are in the country with shotgun backup and a couple of 45 Colts.

I grew up with guns of all kinds. I wanted to be Annie Oakley. I became very proficient in a quick draw. I have seen two people shot in my life and it is not pretty or something you can just forget. I would advise talking to your local Cheif and get his advise on a training place. Good to let him know you are alone. If you can find a women's group, that would be very enlightening to you.

The thing about carrying a handgun is can you get to it before an assailant does? Even if your state is open carry, I would not advise such unless you are in a group.  So much to learn and if you can find a woman instructor that is best. Get to know your neighbors and see if they also are armed and trained. Set up emergency communications with them. It is so important in these times. We must now think about if our areas are assaulted, everyone must be in agreement. If you are the only one against a mob, you don't have a chance. I would not want to be living alone in a remote area these days or a neighborhood of unarmed people.

Antifa was bused in our area and met by 300 open carry citizens. The police made it clear to them if they wanted to stand across the street and hold signs great, but if they crossed the street blocking traffic, they would be arrested. They also made it clear any assault meant to harm anyone would give the armed citizens the right to defend themselves by any means they deemed necessary. This included Antifa using lasers to blind, mega horns to deafen, bear spray in the face, etc. They got back on their bus and headed back to Portland.

Again I advise asking yourself questions. If someone is breaking your door in with a crowbar, could you shoot them? These mobs carry molotov cocktails so do you wait till they light it to shoot, or after they throw it? If they have a gun, do you wait till they shoot or shoot first? 

A safe armed neighborhood is your best defense.


----------



## Gaer (Sep 3, 2020)

MsFox said:


> @Gaer If you just want a home self-defense gun, a shotgun is best. Handguns will require some training and not just safety, you must be able to hit your target and know your range. Another thing to ask yourself is if could could pull the trigger and at what point. If you have never watched anyone die, this is for me the most important thing to resolve in your mind. It is worst to have a gun and not use it and have the intruder use it on you. I have never been a fan of the 223 semi-auto military style rife. My choice in a rife is a 30/30 lever action for home defense if you are in the country with shotgun backup and a couple of 45 Colts.
> 
> I grew up with guns of all kinds. I wanted to be Annie Oakley. I became very proficient in a quick draw. I have seen two people shot in my life and it is not pretty or something you can just forget. I would advise talking to your local Cheif and get his advise on a training place. Good to let him know you are alone. If you can find a women's group, that would be very enlightening to you.
> 
> ...


Thank you,  I already have a Colt S/A. Not going to buy a rifle.  I'm not afraid but since I have this revolver, I just want to understand it in full and feel confident loading, unloading, firing, handling it  etc.  
Yes, I understand about shooting another.  My late  husband was a Federal Marshal and he killed 11 men in gunfights.  He told me it's something you never want to see.  
No, There would be no safe, armed neighborhood. but this is semi-rural.  Yes, If they came here,I would be the only one against the mob. 
I doubt this will happen and as I said, I'm not afraid. Your thoughtful advise is much appreciated though!


----------



## Nathan (Sep 3, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Antifa was bused in our area and met by 300 open carry citizens. The police made it clear to them if they wanted to stand across the street and hold signs great, but if they crossed the street blocking traffic, they would be arrested. They also made it clear any assault meant to harm anyone would give the armed citizens the right to defend themselves by any means they deemed necessary. This included Antifa using lasers to blind, mega horns to deafen, bear spray in the face, etc. They got back on their bus and headed back to Portland.


Regarding "Antifa":  





> *Antifa* (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] is a left-wing, anti-fascist political movement in the United States[2][3][4][5] comprising a diverse[6][7] array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of both nonviolent and violent direct action rather than through policy reform.[8][9][10][11] Described as a highly decentralized movement, antifa political activists are anti-racists who engage in protest tactics, seeking to combat fascists and racists such as neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other far-right extremists


 Wikipedia



MsFox said:


> Again I advise asking yourself questions. If someone is breaking your door in with a crowbar, could you shoot them? These mobs carry molotov cocktails so do you wait till they light it to shoot, or after they throw it? If they have a gun, do you wait till they shoot or shoot first?


It appears that home security and the anti-racist + anti-fascist demonstrations have become co-mingled here. The thrust of Antifa's efforts are to confront racist + fascist governmental entities, NOT citizens or homeowners.

For the record, you CAN shoot someone breaking your door in with a crowbar, however YOU just have to make sure that you can articulate that your life was clearly in danger.


----------



## Devi (Sep 3, 2020)

I deleted this, but didn't see that people have replied to it. 

So, it basically said that Wikipedia is not my first line of information. However that was interpreted, okay.


----------



## MsFox (Sep 3, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Regarding "Antifa":    Wikipedia
> 
> 
> It appears that home security and the anti-racist + anti-fascist demonstrations have become co-mingled here. The thrust of Antifa's efforts are to confront racist + fascist governmental entities, NOT citizens or homeowners.
> ...


Really Nathan?  I have seen Antifa in action and they target anyone that stands in the way of their mission to destroy America as it is. They are the fascists. They recently attacked and tried to burn the Portland Mayors apartment building, with people in it of all races. They have destroyed much of downtown Portland and business owned mainly by immigrants of several races, ethnic groups, and backgrounds. Wikipedia is a joke and Antifa has control over what is written about them. They say one thing but their actions are another.

Home defense against mob action is why so many are buying guns. They are not worried about the one lone bandit, but the rioters that are out to destroy without regard for anyone's rights or beliefs. Give them any name you want and claim a just racial cause, but when mostly "white" thugs burn down a Black Neighborhood because of their religion and political beliefs, that isn't racial justice.


----------



## win231 (Sep 3, 2020)

Devi said:


> .


Yes, Wikipedia, every news channel, every news article is false (if you don't like the information provided).
And police officers never commit crimes because......they're all heroes.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 3, 2020)

Sunny said:


> So, 911, this means you have no concern for the innocent people being killed on a daily basis by rogue cops?
> 
> My concern is for any innocent people being killed by trigger-happy maniacs, whether those maniacs are wearing a uniform or not.




On a daily basis?  Last year cops killed 25 unarmed black men. There were, by the way, 48 cops killed in the line of duty (more counting accidents).  

There were over 7,000 black homicide victims, most of them killed by other black people.  

Police conduct is a problem, but it's part of a larger problem involving crime, poverty and family.  These are difficult problems to solve.  It's much easier to throw bricks and tear down statues.  

Source:  Mapping Police Violence, a crowdsourced database that includes deaths by vehicle, tasering or beating in addition to shootings, estimates 25 police killings of unarmed Black men in 2019.


----------



## Devi (Sep 3, 2020)

Well, what @MsFox said.


----------



## Devi (Sep 3, 2020)

@win231, what I posted was *not at all *the way you've interpreted it:

"Yes, Wikipedia, every news channel, every news article is false (if you don't like the information provided).
And police officers never commit crimes because......they're all heroes."

But I'm not going to argue with such hyperbole and misinterpretation of what I posted. Have it your way.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 3, 2020)

Nathan said:


> Regarding "Antifa":    Wikipedia
> 
> 
> It appears that home security and the anti-racist + anti-fascist demonstrations have become co-mingled here. The thrust of Antifa's efforts are to confront racist + fascist governmental entities, NOT citizens or homeowners.
> ...



The thrust of Antifa's efforts in my city is to bait the police (violating curfews, vandalism, setting small fires) then engage in confrontation (rock and bottle throwing, firing paintballs, etc)  then to whine about "police brutality" when the police respond.  

There aren't any racist/fascist governmental entities to confront, just mostly black cops.  

Get arrested, get released, do it all over again.  

There is a simple solution:  Felony prosecutions, convictions, serious jail time.  These weenies are not prepared to do the time.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 3, 2020)

I haven't bought a gun, but we are training our 16 pound CavaPoo (named Maxine) as an attack dog.  If anyone comes to the door, she will lick them on the face until they leave.


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## Sunny (Sep 3, 2020)

JimBob, what is a CavaPoo? A mixture of Cavalier King Charles and poodle?  Awwwww!


----------



## Nathan (Sep 3, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Really Nathan?  I have seen Antifa in action and they target anyone that stands in the way of their mission to destroy America as it is. They are the fascists. They recently attacked and tried to burn the Portland Mayors apartment building, with people in it of all races. They have destroyed much of downtown Portland and business owned mainly by immigrants of several races, ethnic groups, and backgrounds. Wikipedia is a joke and Antifa has control over what is written about them. They say one thing but their actions are another.
> 
> Home defense against mob action is why so many are buying guns. They are not worried about the one lone bandit, but the rioters that are out to destroy without regard for anyone's rights or beliefs. Give them any name you want and claim a just racial cause, but when mostly "white" thugs burn down a Black Neighborhood because of their religion and political beliefs, that isn't racial justice.



There was a threat to burn down an apartment building, because the Portland mayor lives there. That threat is of course deplorable, but was not due to race, religion or political belief of the occupants,  but due to the mayor's response to the demonstrators.  reuters.com  However,  your comment about Wikipedia is incorrect, in that the person or group about whom a Wikipedia article was written has no "control" over the content.  Wikipedia:Editorial oversight and control



MsFox said:


> when mostly "white" thugs burn down a Black Neighborhood because of their religion and political beliefs, that isn't racial justice.



Interesting choice of analogies, as there have in fact been many instances of white thugs burning black neighborhoods, churches, businesses, etc.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 3, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Really Nathan?  I have seen Antifa in action and they target anyone that stands in the way of their mission to destroy America as it is. They are the fascists. They recently attacked and tried to burn the Portland Mayors apartment building, with people in it of all races. They have destroyed much of downtown Portland and business owned mainly by immigrants of several races, ethnic groups, and backgrounds. Wikipedia is a joke and Antifa has control over what is written about them. They say one thing but their actions are another.
> 
> Home defense against mob action is why so many are buying guns. They are not worried about the one lone bandit, but the rioters that are out to destroy without regard for anyone's rights or beliefs. Give them any name you want and claim a just racial cause, but when mostly "white" thugs burn down a Black Neighborhood because of their religion and political beliefs, that isn't racial justice.


(I'm kinda jumping in in the middle of this thread)
From what I've seen and even somewhat experienced, THE problem is they present themselves in a manner that most people would think 'racial justice' is their driving force, it can be difficult to see 'who' is 'what.'  
If anyone here has any FACTUAL info on these jerks- background or anything else- I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Pepper (Sep 3, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> If anyone here has any FACTUAL info on these jerks- background or anything else- I'd appreciate it.


Why?  You appear to have already made up your mind by referring to them as jerks.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Why?  You appear to have already made up your mind by referring to them as jerks.


You don't think that's an appropriate word for these Antifa individuals?
I've seen what they've been doing here, and that's a kinda polite way of wording it.


----------



## Pepper (Sep 3, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> You don't think that's an appropriate word for these Antifa individuals?
> I've seen what they've been doing here, and that's a kinda polite way of wording it.


I found that many people of all stripes can fit that description.  If I were comparing, I find the Charlottesville mob to be jerkier.  You remember them, those "Jews will not replace us" guys, the ones with the torches like it's Kristallnacht.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 3, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I found that many people of all stripes can fit that description.  If I were comparing, I find the Charlottesville mob to be jerkier.  You remember them, those "Jews will not replace us" guys, the ones with the torches like it's Kristallnacht.


Yes, I certainly do.  A difference, though, is with most mobs it's not difficult to see them for who/what they are, they aren't trying to blend in and pretending to be something else.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 3, 2020)

I'm not familiar with this website  https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16104/antifa-history

c/p:
_Antifa's stated long-term objective, both in America and abroad, is to establish a communist world order..
A common tactic used by Antifa in the United States and Europe is to employ extreme violence and destruction of public and private property to goad the police into a reaction, which then "proves" Antifa's claim that the government is "fascist." _

Their local Facebook page-  what I could see without a FB account-  brought up terms such as 'our valued comrade,' 'the working class,' and a photo of 'Chairman Mao.'


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 3, 2020)

Sunny said:


> JimBob, what is a CavaPoo? A mixture of Cavalier King Charles and poodle?  Awwwww!



That is exactly right.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 3, 2020)

Nathan said:


> There was a threat to burn down an apartment building, because the Portland mayor lives there. That threat is of course deplorable, but was not due to race, religion or political belief of the occupants,  but due to the mayor's response to the demonstrators.  reuters.com  However,  your comment about Wikipedia is incorrect, in that the person or group about whom a Wikipedia article was written has no "control" over the content.  Wikipedia:Editorial oversight and control
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting choice of analogies, as there have in fact been many instances of white thugs burning black neighborhoods, churches, businesses, etc.



Threat? They gathered at his apartment building and set fire to the lobby.  He had to move out to protect his neighbors.  Some threat.


----------



## win231 (Sep 3, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> I haven't bought a gun, but we are training our 16 pound CavaPoo (named Maxine) as an attack dog.  If anyone comes to the door, she will lick them on the face until they leave.


For that type of dog, you need a "Beware of Dog" sign.

So nobody steps on her.


----------



## DaveA (Sep 3, 2020)

I'm glad that I don't live in some of the communities spoken about here.  A gun needed to stay in one's house or to venture out with the garbage cans for the weekly pick-up?   Really??

One can only imagine the terror that I was subjected to today.  I first had to visit my ophthalmologist and then an evening visit with my wife who is hospitalized, both without being armed.  Guess some of us are lucky to survive, day to day without carrying a handgun, concealed or open  carry.  Thankfully, I do have a handgun  here in the house.  It was here when my dad lived here and it's been mine for the past 55 years. 

Maybe it's time to get a "bigger" one to make up for any possible inadequacies that I might have. LOL  A "big" truck also helps along those lines.

What a country this has become.


----------



## applecruncher (Sep 3, 2020)

@DaveA 
Yeah, I hear ya.
Tomorrow I have to take stuff out to the recycle bins. Then I have to pick up a few things at the drugstore. And here I sit without a gun. Oh, woe is me.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Sep 4, 2020)

Sunny said:


> JimBob, what is a CavaPoo? A mixture of Cavalier King Charles and poodle?  Awwwww!





Sunny said:


> JimBob, what is a CavaPoo? A mixture of Cavalier King Charles and poodle?  Awwwww!



Here is the attack dog.  (baby picture)


----------



## applecruncher (Sep 4, 2020)

@JimBob1952 

Aaawww, what a face


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 4, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Here is the attack dog.  (baby picture)
> 
> View attachment 121104


Years ago, I had a work project with a variety of topics..  one title was KING CHARLES SPANIEL.  
I was pulling an all-nighter to meet a deadline, had never heard the breed before, and was so tired my first thought was "What an odd name!"  then:  "Wait, did he have a dog named after him?"  I was so exhausted I thought "King Charles Spaniel" must have been a British monarch in the distant past...  
That's when I figured I needed to take a little break, but met the deadline anyway.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 4, 2020)

911 said:


> I prefer people carry concealed weapons compared to open carry for obvious reasons. Here in PA, there is a process that is required to obtain a concealed permit. Concealed permits are not good from state to state, but there are some states that do reciprocate with one another. I do recommend people that are able to handle a weapon to CC.


Maybe it's obvious to you, but I don't understand it..  have heard it before, but not from law enforcement...  unless there's the concern some individuals would start "dueling in the street," why are concealed weapons preferable to open carry???


----------



## KimIn Wis (Sep 4, 2020)

Don M. said:


> Something that is Not being mentioned in the news is the sharp rise in gun purchases....much of that being among first time gun owners.  2020 is seeing the sharpest rise is gun sales in the nations history.  Between the violence taking place in many of the cities, and the reduction in support for the police, many people are preparing to have to defend themselves and their homes.  Between this pandemic, and the senseless protests/riots, 2020 is a really bad year.
> 
> https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2020/08/gun-sales-records-smashed-2020/


Yep, I have to reply to this. I have always been against hand guns in my house and there never was. Notice the past tense.  We now have 2 handguns, are getting professional  training, and are scheduled for a Concealed Carry Permit class. Never thought I'd see the day, but the day has just been too crazy! Anyone come looking to destroy or trespass on MY property will be met with 2 old geezers who have grown up with rifles all their lives and just upgraded our protection! It should not be this way, but it is, and we are ready.


----------



## KimIn Wis (Sep 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> "but it would be nice if first time gun owners would be required to take a safety course and that everyone would have to undergo a very intense background check"
> 
> The background check I support 100%........
> 
> ...


The biggest thing pounded over and over and over in safety classes is when you pick up a hand gun, your finger should NOT be on the trigger. The only time your finger should be on the trigger is when you are prepared to actually Shoot! The other big thing they teach, is you NEVER point it at someone unless you intend to shoot them!  Remember that couple that got arrested for pointing guns at those rioters in their own yard?  That woman was the WORSE gun owner, she had her finger on the trigger the entire time and was swinging it around like a rope!
This is where guns are dangerous!  She could have accidentally shot and killed someone, then it would be a murder charge!


----------



## 911 (Sep 4, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Maybe it's obvious to you, but I don't understand it..  have heard it before, but not from law enforcement...  unless there's the concern some individuals would start "dueling in the street," why are concealed weapons preferable to open carry???


The reasons why we in law enforcement prefer CC are 1. the person carrying definitely went through background checks and his/her weapon is more likely to be registered and 2. if a person is open carry into Walmart it usually starts a panic among the shoppers because no one knows what that person’s intent is. This is just 2 of the reasons why CC is preferred.

I have always told my wife that if someone is going to come into the Target or Walmart with the intention of ‘making the rounds’ and they see me open carrying my 9mm they probably will decide to go elsewhere and do it. If someone is going to attempt to ‘make the rounds’ I want to be there and maybe be able to help quell the shooter’s rage.


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 4, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Here is the attack dog.  (baby picture)
> 
> View attachment 121104



Really cute doggie!


----------



## Butterfly (Sep 4, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> I haven't bought a gun, but we are training our 16 pound CavaPoo (named Maxine) as an attack dog.  If anyone comes to the door, she will lick them on the face until they leave.



My 75 pound dog would probably do the same, though he can look scary unless he has his goofy expression on.


----------



## JaniceM (Sep 4, 2020)

911 said:


> The reasons why we in law enforcement prefer CC are 1. the person carrying definitely went through background checks and his/her weapon is more likely to be registered and 2. if a person is open carry into Walmart it usually starts a panic among the shoppers because no one knows what that person’s intent is. This is just 2 of the reasons why CC is preferred.
> 
> I have always told my wife that if someone is going to come into the Target or Walmart with the intention of ‘making the rounds’ and they see me open carrying my 9mm they probably will decide to go elsewhere and do it. If someone is going to attempt to ‘make the rounds’ I want to be there and maybe be able to help quell the shooter’s rage.


O.k., thanks for the info!!


----------



## Keesha (Sep 5, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Here is the attack dog.  (baby picture)
> 
> View attachment 121104


Attack dog? Well I’m terrified! 
How adorable!


----------



## WaskaleeWabbit (Sep 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> I'm not a genius & I've owned guns, shot competitively & handloaded my own ammo for 44 years.  I've never taken a safety course or had any "Training."
> When gun accidents occur, it's due to recklessness, stupidity & a lack of common sense, and NO safety course will convert an idiot into a responsible person.  A gun comes with a manual with all necessary safety warnings.  When I bought my first gun, I simply read the manual - just as when I bought anything else that could be dangerous.





911 said:


> These cities should also worry about the hundreds of lawsuits filed by the business owners and citizens for all the damage and violence of the mobs being allowed to roam the streets and act out in anarchy. Seattle, Portland, Chicago, New York, Kenosha and Minneapolis are probably in the hole tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. I feel bad for their citizens. With all the people leaving their cities and properties being devalued, revenue from taxes will be severely diminished. The last few weeks, we have seen people being murdered by these mobs, whether directly or indirectly. It’s an all around bad situation.
> 
> Portland refuses to prosecute and allows them to go bail-free. Would you live there?


Run for the hills! wait, .. charge the batteries, put the shotgun in the seat holster, jump on the rascal and drive to the hills! ... shit, wait, go back make sure i have all my pills, charge the batteries, shotgun ammo, and I'll need a snack, wait ... go back get a snack, charge the batteries, but first I need a nap.


----------



## Camper6 (Sep 5, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> Maybe it's obvious to you, but I don't understand it..  have heard it before, but not from law enforcement...  unless there's the concern some individuals would start "dueling in the street," why are concealed weapons preferable to open carry???


With open carry someone can target you and take your gun.
With concealed they don't know if you have a gun.


----------



## WaskaleeWabbit (Sep 5, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> With open carry someone can target you and take your gun.
> With concealed they don't know if you have a gun.


I prefer to carry a loaded guillotine, sure i had to pay for a trailer hitch for my car and a have a specialized guillotine trailer made, but it makes me feel safe wherever I go. People see it and they know I'm packin' and say "maybe I'll **** with the other Canadian Tire store across town, the one without the guy with the guillotine..."


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## FastTrax (Sep 5, 2020)

www.statista.com/statistics/1124039/police-killings-rate-selected-countries/


----------



## Sunny (Sep 5, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Here is the attack dog.  (baby picture)
> 
> View attachment 121104


Now, that is one fierce looking dog, JimBob. I wouldn't want to mess around with that beast!


----------



## 911 (Sep 5, 2020)

Gaer said:


> Thank you,  I already have a Colt S/A. Not going to buy a rifle.  I'm not afraid but since I have this revolver, I just want to understand it in full and feel confident loading, unloading, firing, handling it  etc.
> Yes, I understand about shooting another.  My late  husband was a Federal Marshal and he killed 11 men in gunfights.  He told me it's something you never want to see.
> No, There would be no safe, armed neighborhood. but this is semi-rural.  Yes, If they came here,I would be the only one against the mob.
> I doubt this will happen and as I said, I'm not afraid. Your thoughtful advise is much appreciated though!


Don’t forget to learn how to disassemble your weapon to be able to keep it cleaned and oiled.

I was able to work with Federal Marshalls a few times when we conducted raids on drug houses and illegal firearms. In the house that had the illegal firearms, we confiscated a lot of money, along with 400 handheld sub machine guns and several other weapons, which were mostly handguns.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Sep 5, 2020)

Gaer said:


> (with all due respect to your opinion) Can you look at the topic of guns from more than one side?  Try to look at all six sides.  How can guns be blamed for what is happening by the mobs? Do you blame knives?  all the inanimate objects which can be used in violence?
> Please try to look at the big picture.  Study the history of nations who's armament was confiscated.
> After the ways to defend our freedoms are taken from us our freedom of speech will be  the next to be taken away!
> I'm not kidding.  This is already in the works in the minds of man!  Marxist groups are already planning this.
> ...


Six sides? Lets take mobs out of it. I said nothing about mobs. You know what they say "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".  But lets take knives out of it. As my husband used to say..."that's not what we're talking about right now". I don't like guns...period. *Obviously *guns don't fire by themselves. Here's the real history. The way White people are treated when they defend their homes is vastly different from the way Black people are treated for doing the same thing.  But wait...let's take race out of it.  Too many people who have insisted on having guns in their homes have *not *had the good sense to put them away safely...thus the many children who are killed by gun *accidents. *Then there's the (adult) "I didn't mean to kill him/her...the gun went off by accident!".  An elderly man walks into a hospital and kills his wife who's a patient. He didn't stab her...he shot her.  You can kill someone from a distance with a gun. You can't do that with a knife unless you are a really good knife thrower. And how did a teenager get to walk around with a AR-15 rifle then kill 2 protesters. There's so many guns out there that any and everybody, no matter their mental state, can get their hands on one. *That* was my point.

My father had a gun when I lived at home. My mother said he used to go out in the back yard and shoot it every 4th of July. Never got why though. But I never allowed guns in my home and I broke it off with a boyfriend who brought one here and decided to play around with it in front of me and my little boy. I asked him to leave and told him never to come back. I don't even remember if it was loaded...didn't care! I don't see a reason to change my mind. What good would it do me? I'm certainly not going to go out and buy one. I also see no reason to try to convince you to think as I do about guns. In this case, I respectfully say..we can agree to disagree.


----------



## AnnieA (Sep 5, 2020)

Pepper said:


> I found that many people of all stripes can fit that description.  If I were comparing, I find the Charlottesville mob to be jerkier.  You remember them, those "Jews will not replace us" guys, the ones with the torches like it's Kristallnacht.



Far right extremists and far left extremists get so off the mark that they begin to look alike.


----------



## AnnieA (Sep 5, 2020)

@Keesha  ...I didn't mean that as a joke!  It's ugly really that their hatred makes them basically the same.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 5, 2020)

I've always hated guns.  Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 5, 2020)

AnnieA said:


> @Keesha  ...I didn't mean that as a joke!  It's ugly really that their hatred makes them basically the same.


Right at this moment everything is funny. I can’t get get all wrapped up in politics. It’s far too confusing and annoying. Have a brownie or 2 or 3 with ice cream


----------



## Keesha (Sep 5, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I've always hated guns.  Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns.



I’m really sorry you had to deal with this. I can’t imagine what that would be like. While I haven’t had such an experience I strongly dislike guns also.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m really sorry you had to deal with this. I can’t imagine what that would be like. While I haven’t had such an experience I strongly dislike guns also.


They were made to kill.  It's not okay.


----------



## win231 (Sep 5, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I've always hated guns.  Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns.


It's much easier to blame an object than blaming your brother.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> It's much easier to blame an object than blaming your brother.


I blame my brother.  Don't tell me how it is, when you have no idea what happened or why.  After the fact he said he thought about burning down their houses or shooting them.  He chose shooting them with he deer hunting rifle, a .30-06 Browning Semi Automatic.  I also know what led to this.  They were innocent people, all four of them.  If you want to know the truth about what happened here's the link to my article about it.    The Other Side of Murder I've also written a couple of books about it. The one currently in print is more comprehensive than the first one.  The title is different from the one listed in the article.  I changed it because I was contacted by the show _Evil Lives Here_. They were propagating hate. That's the last thing we need in this violent world.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> They were made to kill.  It's not okay.


No it’s not ok that people use them recklessly and kill others but that’s what happens when a dangerous weapon meets opportunity.

There are people with mental disorders and there are people with anger issues who get access to guns or even own them and bad things happen.

I’m not a gun supporter in the least but I don’t wish to discuss the politics behind the obvious gun problem. It’s not a torch I wish to carry.

It appears that what your brother has done , haunts you.


----------



## KimIn Wis (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> They were made to kill.  It's not okay.


Kesha didn't say it was "ok", ??


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 6, 2020)

Keesha said:


> No it’s not ok that people use them recklessly and kill others but that’s what happens when a dangerous weapon meets opportunity.
> 
> There are people with mental disorders and there are people with anger issues who get access to guns or even own them and bad things happen.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't haunt me.  I worked it out in the last 40 years.  The writing of the books did that and working on my inner self did that.   But it did change everything about my life. Everything.  If you want to know more about where I am with it now, you can go to the article.  It's all explained there.



KimIn Wis said:


> Kesha didn't say it was "ok", ??


I know she didn't.  She's a good soul who understands.


----------



## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I blame my brother.  Don't tell me how it is, when you have no idea what happened or why.  After the fact he said he thought about burning down their houses or shooting them.  He chose shooting them with he deer hunting rifle, a .30-06 Browning Semi Automatic.  I also know what led to this.  They were innocent people, all four of them.  If you want to know the truth about what happened here's the link to my article about it.    The Other Side of Murder I've also written a couple of books about it. The one currently in print is more comprehensive than the first one.  The title is different from the one listed in the article.  I changed it because I was contacted by the show _Evil Lives Here_. They were propagating hate. That's the last thing we need in this violent world.


Re-read your post #145.  You clearly blame the gun.  The incident you refer to is indeed tragic - as any murder is, but the fault lies with the person who committed the crime; not an inanimate object that has no will of its own.


----------



## Phoenix (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> Re-read your post #145.  You clearly blame the gun.  The incident you refer to is indeed tragic - as any murder is, but the fault lies with the person who committed the crime; not an inanimate object that has no will of its own.


Stop this.


----------



## Keesha (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> Re-read your post #145.  You clearly blame the gun.  The incident you refer to is indeed tragic - as any murder is, but the fault lies with the person who committed the crime; not an inanimate object that has no will of its own.


Come on win.
Please stop this. 
Have a


----------



## Gaer (Sep 6, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Six sides? Lets take mobs out of it. I said nothing about mobs. You know what they say "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".  But lets take knives out of it. As my husband used to say..."that's not what we're talking about right now". I don't like guns...period. *Obviously *guns don't fire by themselves. Here's the real history. The way White people are treated when they defend their homes is vastly different from the way Black people are treated for doing the same thing.  But wait...let's take race out of it.  Too many people who have insisted on having guns in their homes have *not *had the good sense to put them away safely...thus the many children who are killed by gun *accidents. *Then there's the (adult) "I didn't mean to kill him/her...the gun went off by accident!".  An elderly man walks into a hospital and kills his wife who's a patient. He didn't stab her...he shot her.  You can kill someone from a distance with a gun. You can't do that with a knife unless you are a really good knife thrower. And how did a teenager get to walk around with a AR-15 rifle then kill 2 protesters. There's so many guns out there that any and everybody, no matter their mental state, can get their hands on one. *That* was my point.
> 
> My father had a gun when I lived at home. My mother said he used to go out in the back yard and shoot it every 4th of July. Never got why though. But I never allowed guns in my home and I broke it off with a boyfriend who brought one here and decided to play around with it in front of me and my little boy. I asked him to leave and told him never to come back. I don't even remember if it was loaded...didn't care! I don't see a reason to change my mind. What good would it do me? I'm certainly not going to go out and buy one. I also see no reason to try to convince you to think as I do about guns. In this case, I respectfully say..we can agree to disagree.



I want to thank you for your reply. You are a gracious and lovely lady!  Yes, we disagree but you didn't attack me, call me names or make me feel stupid about my opinions.   I thank you for that!
i grew up in the wildest ole cowtown in the West, my Grandma carried a double barrel shotgun around, and I married into law enforcement.  This might have something to do with my affinity for the smell of leather revolvers and horse hay.
I don't LOVE guns.  I respect guns and respect the Constitution. Maybe that's not exactly true.  The old Colt 45 has such design, balance, shape.( especially the  Peacemaker)  It really is beautiful! and the old Winchester rifles, I'm getting off track.
The purpose of my post is to make people AWARE that once the 2nd amendment goes, THE FIRST AMENDMENT, the freedom of speech will go too!  Hopefully this won't happen in our lifetime, but it could.  The Constitution could hang by a thread!
Yes I believe in law enforcement and in the right of people to defend themselves and you don't, and that's fine.
We can still be friends because I respect your opinions.  You're cool!


----------



## 911 (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> I've always hated guns.  Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns.


Yeah, that’ll do it.


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## OneEyedDiva (Sep 6, 2020)

Gaer said:


> I want to thank you for your reply. You are a gracious and lovely lady!  Yes, we disagree but you didn't attack me, call me names or make me feel stupid about my opinions.   I thank you for that!
> I don't LOVE guns.  I respect guns and respect the Constitution. Maybe that's not exactly true.  The old Colt 45 has such design, balance, shape.( especially the  Peacemaker)  It really is beautiful! and the old Winchester rifles, I'm getting off track.
> The purpose of my post is to make people AWARE that once the 2nd amendment goes, THE FIRST AMENDMENT, the freedom of speech will go too!  Hopefully this won't happen in our lifetime, but it could.  The Constitution could hang by a thread!
> Yes I believe in law enforcement and in the right of people to defend themselves and you don't, and that's fine.
> We can still be friends because I respect your opinions.  You're cool!


I think you are very cool as well Gaer. Thank you for *your* response and for the compliments. Let's be clear, I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves if their actions are indeed justifiable. I've seen cases where they were not. There also needs to be a removal of the double standard that exists (as I previously pointed out) when such defensive actions take place.


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## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Come on win.
> Please stop this.
> Have a ♥


Ya know, if you don't like to hear the truth, no one is forcing you to read it.
And I have the same right to my opinion as you do.


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## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

911 said:


> Yeah, that’ll do it.


I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who doesn't like guns - regardless of their reason.  They're not for everybody.
I have a big problem with someone who blames guns for crimes instead of the real causes.


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## 911 (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> I have no problem whatsoever with anyone who doesn't like guns - regardless of their reason.  They're not for everybody.
> I have a big problem with someone who blames guns for crimes instead of the real causes.


I think there is some confusion going on. Phoenix’s brother killed people using a gun. She doesn’t blame the gun (she does blame her brother), but just doesn’t like guns. I think it’s understandable as to why she has these feelings.


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## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

911 said:


> I think there is some confusion going on. Phoenix’s brother killed people using a gun. She doesn’t blame the gun (she does blame her brother), but just doesn’t like guns. I think it’s understandable as to why she has these feelings.



"She Doesn't blame the gun?
Quote:_  "Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns."  _
Couldn't be any clearer.


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## Phoenix (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> "She Doesn't blame the gun?
> Quote:_  "Since my brother murdered people with his I am intolerant of guns."  _
> Couldn't be any clearer.


Stop baiting people.


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## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Stop baiting people.


LOL!


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## Keesha (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> Ya know, if you don't like to hear the truth, no one is forcing you to read it.
> And I have the same right to my opinion as you do.


I’m sorry win. Yes! You’re right. 
Go ahead and pick on the lady who’s brother murdered 4 of her neighbours.


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## Ruthanne (Sep 6, 2020)

I have thought about buying a gun myself but have not because I fear I might shoot someone.  People irritate me!


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## win231 (Sep 6, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m sorry win. Yes! You’re right.
> Go ahead and pick on the lady who’s brother murdered 4 of her neighbours.


Go ahead & support stupidity.


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## Keesha (Sep 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> Go ahead & support stupidity.


Nah. I’m not supporting you!


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## Keesha (Sep 6, 2020)

Phoenix said:


> Stop baiting people.



He just can’t stop himself.


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