# Why Was It Necessary To Shoot This Child 11 Times?!!



## OneEyedDiva (Oct 3, 2020)

Salt Lake City, Utah: A 13 year old autistic boy in was shot 11 times after police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues. What happened to the days when police were told to shoot to wound or disable and 11 shots would not have been necessary? Even though the boy has obvious mental issues, in this case when police approached him, he was not armed but his mother said seeing police freaked him out.  The shooting left him in serious condition. Your thoughts?
https://news.sky.com/story/linden-c...-being-shot-multiple-times-by-police-12078584


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## Keesha (Oct 3, 2020)

I have no idea but I’m sure there are plenty of people who  will attempt to justify it, however I’m not going to be one of them.


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## Pecos (Oct 3, 2020)

It seem that there is no end to this kind of thing these days. My heart aches for that boy and his family. There is no way this can be defended.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 3, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Salt Lake City, Utah: A 13 year old autistic boy in was shot 11 times after police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues. What happened to the days when police were told to shoot to wound or disable and 11 shots would not have been necessary? Even though the boy has obvious mental issues, in this case when police approached him, he was not armed but his mother said seeing police freaked him out.  The shooting left him in serious condition. Your thoughts?
> https://news.sky.com/story/linden-c...-being-shot-multiple-times-by-police-12078584


No excuse for that abuse of power.  Makes one think these day before they call the police for any concern like this, too many times it ends badly.  Wish the best for the victim.


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## SeaBreeze (Oct 3, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I have no idea but I’m sure there are plenty of people who  will attempt to justify it, however I’m not going to be one of them.


Those who attempt to justify something like this are part of the problem.


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## Keesha (Oct 3, 2020)

SeaBreeze said:


> Those who attempt to justify something like this are part of the problem.


Unfortunately yes.


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## Sassycakes (Oct 3, 2020)

This is absolutely heartbreaking.


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## win231 (Oct 3, 2020)

The only reason the child survived was because the cop was running & he couldn't have a steady hold & because his heart was racing.
And, ever wonder why cops always yell, _"Show me your hands"_ over & over while the suspect is on the ground, unconscious or dead?
They are making sure witnesses hear that to justify their actions  - _"I kept shooting him because I couldn't see his hands." _
Cops also yell _"Stop Resisting"_ over & over while they continue beating a suspect who is not resisting - for the same reason.


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## Lewkat (Oct 4, 2020)

I cannot wrap my mind around this at all.  Why grown cops would feel it necessary to fire one shot is beyond me.  This is a 13 yr. old kid for heaven's sake.  Autistic kids have crises periodically.  EMS, should have been called.  They'd have handled it professionally.


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## Mike (Oct 4, 2020)

If the policeman was afraid, he shouldn't
be in the job and to me shooting so many
times is fear, or he likes shooting people.

Mike.


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

Just to be clear, “IF” the facts are as written and are true, we do not teach the procedures as described in this article.

We have a whole different method to control the situation as described.


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

Did I miss it, or did the police ever see a weapon?


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## hollydolly (Oct 4, 2020)

I read that the mother told the police that the youth had an air gun or pistol


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## Keesha (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> Just to be clear, “IF” the facts are as written and are true, we do not teach the procedures as described in this article.
> 
> We have a whole different method to control the situation as described.


Just to be clear...... your first reaction is to defend the police?

I know you are going to think I’m picking on you but you seem to completely lack empathy for the child here. Is this not horrible to you?


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> Just to be clear, “IF” the facts are as written and are true, we do not teach the procedures as described in this article.
> 
> We have a whole different method to control the situation as described.


As far as I know the facts are true.  This is one of my greatest fears for my son. I live Utah.  The police have been called to the group home my son lives in for the misbehavior of one of the other residents.  

It is not unusual for our police department to shoot people, IMO.

Edited to add:  we still have the firing squad for the death penalty.  It was stopped in 2004 and has been reinstated.


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Just to be clear...... your first reaction is to defend the police?
> 
> I know you are going to think I’m picking on you but you seem to completely lack empathy for the child here. Is this not horrible you?


Absolutely not. I’m not defending the police. I was only stating that the Pennsylvania State Police does not teach the handling of the same situation by the methods described in the article.

Unless, I missed it, the article does not state that the young man showed a weapon, only that he had threatened to use one. The articles read that there was no indication of a weapon and that the young man only had either a BB gun or pellet gun. Some guns are capable of shooting either. 

If the article is 100% accurate, I can assure anyone that we would have handled the situation differently and no one would have been injured.


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> As far as I know the facts are true.  This is one of my greatest fears for my son. I live Utah.  The police have been called to the group home my son lives in for the misbehavior of one of the other residents.
> 
> It is not unusual for our police department to shoot people, IMO.
> 
> Edited to add:  we still have the firing squad for the death penalty.  It was stopped in 2004 and has been reinstated.


Yes, I read that the firing squad was reinstated in Utah. I never agreed with that method. I think it’s barbaric next to hanging.

Tell your son that if the police arrive at the group home he is in to raise his hands above his head.


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## Keesha (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> Absolutely not. I’m not defending the police. I was only stating that the Pennsylvania State Police does not teach the handling of the same situation by the methods described in the article.
> 
> Unless, I missed it, the article does not state that the young man showed a weapon, only that he had threatened to use one. The articles read that there was no indication of a weapon and that the young man only had either a BB gun or pellet gun. Some guns are capable of shooting either.
> 
> If the article is 100% accurate, I can assure anyone that we would have handled the situation differently and no one would have been injured.


Ok.  It could be that my perception is off because it still seems like you are defending the police. My apologies if your concern was geared more towards the child and I somehow missed it.


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## Irwin (Oct 4, 2020)

> Ms Barton warned police that her son said earlier that day that he had a gun and had threatened to shoot her male co-worker and break windows in the house, the video showed.



That's probably why the police overreacted.


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

Irwin said:


> That's probably why the police overreacted.


But, did they confirm (or see) that he had a weapon? Worse case scenario, the police could have Tasered him.


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## Butterfly (Oct 4, 2020)

I find it extremely difficult to find any way to justify, in my own mind, the police's shooting of a 13 year year old autistic child 11 times.  The article said he was running away from them, so did they shoot him 11 times in the BACK?


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## rgp (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> Yes, I read that the firing squad was reinstated in Utah. I never agreed with that method. I think it’s barbaric next to hanging.
> 
> Tell your son that if the police arrive at the group home he is in to raise his hands above his head.




  "Yes, I read that the firing squad was reinstated in Utah. I never agreed with that method. I think it’s barbaric next to hanging. "

 Barbaric to whom ? The dead guy doesn't know , he's dead. 

 Why are we always looking for a nice way to kill someone that has committed a capital offence ?


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> "Yes, I read that the firing squad was reinstated in Utah. I never agreed with that method. I think it’s barbaric next to hanging. "
> 
> Barbaric to whom ? The dead guy doesn't know , he's dead.
> 
> Why are we always looking for a nice way to kill someone that has committed a capital offence ?


This is my opinion (Because of reasons, which do not need discussing.), which I am entitled to. I didn’t ask, nor do I expect anyone to agree with. Enough said.


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## fuzzybuddy (Oct 4, 2020)

If the boy was armed does drastically alter the police response, But they are chasing him around, and do not report a weapon. . This episode is exactly what police are going to be forced to deal with. Again, this episode shows the ;lack of police training,, and the lack of oversight. And the quick response with a weapon. Unfortunately, I know how difficult it is to deal with a strong, fit, psychotic male, without  injurying him , nor anyone else.  I've harped on this before, but this is what happens when your police force is taught by OJT ( On the Job Training). There is a lack of knowledge, and sophistication; plus you wind up with a casualty count.
BTW, if the kid did NOT have a weapon, I really don't see why the police shouldn't be charged with a crime.


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## win231 (Oct 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Just to be clear...... your first reaction is to defend the police?
> 
> I know you are going to think I’m picking on you but you seem to completely lack empathy for the child here. Is this not horrible to you?


Cops are pre-wired and pre-programmed to protect their own, regardless of how foolish it makes them look.  The "Brotherhood."


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## Pinky (Oct 4, 2020)

Following are excerpts from the article:

She told officers she thought it was a BB gun or pellet gun, but, while there were no indications he was armed, officers said they would have to proceed as though the boy did have access to a real gun. 

Salt Lake City Police Sergeant Keith Horrocks told reporters there was no indication when they attended that the boy was armed and the incident was now being investigated. 

So, why was it necessary to shoot this child?


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## win231 (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> Yes, I read that the firing squad was reinstated in Utah. I never agreed with that method. I think it’s barbaric next to hanging.
> 
> Tell your son that if the police arrive at the group home he is in to raise his hands above his head.


Uh.....sure....."Tell someone with a mental disability to raise his hands above his head" & expect them to follow instructions.  If they can't, just shoot, then say "He resisted" and "I feared for my life....I wanted to get home to my family.....my job is difficult.....don't criticize my actions.....I'm a hero."


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## 911 (Oct 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> Uh.....sure....."Tell someone with a mental disability to raise his hands above his head" & expect them to follow instructions.  If they can't, just shoot, then say "He resisted" and "I feared for my life....I wanted to get home to my family.....my job is difficult.....don't criticize my actions.....I'm a hero."


You have to teach them, but If they were born with “Down Syndrome” they are not considered a risk.


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## Nathan (Oct 4, 2020)

About the shooting incident-I don't know anything about the Salt Lake City Police Dept., but it looks like another case of inadequate training at best.



Aneeda72 said:


> we still have the firing squad for the death penalty.  It was stopped in 2004 and has been reinstated.



I'm neither for nor against the death penalty, but the firing squad is quick, effective and not any more barbaric than injecting a witch's brew of medications, which sometimes fail in some respect.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 4, 2020)

Nathan said:


> About the shooting incident-I don't know anything about the Salt Lake City Police Dept., but it looks like another case of inadequate training at best.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm neither for nor against the death penalty, but the firing squad is quick, effective and not any more barbaric than injecting a witch's brew of medications, which sometimes fail in some respect.


People used to be given a choice the firing squad or whatever else was offered.  I assume there is still a choice available. Utah, unlike other states IMO, is not reluctant about its use of the death penalty.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 4, 2020)

911 said:


> You have to teach them, but If they were born with “Down Syndrome” they are not considered a risk.


It’s not about what disability a person has, it’s their actions.  But with an IQ of 53, a hearing loss, and a tendency to panic when stressed my son would be in danger from any encounter with police if he were upset.

I was stopped a few times on my way home from work by police even though I had disabled plates and am an older woman.  I had a van and it could clearly be seen that I had a walker in the back of my it.  Same for a friend of mine, in the same “shape” as me with disability plates.

My husband was stopped once, and held at gun point, until they determined same type of car, wrong person.  Again, late in the evening, on the way to work.  The police, in this state, have always been a bit over the top.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 4, 2020)

I googled it.  Last year 19 people were killed by police in Utah, and 30 more were shot at.  True ly, it’s the Wild West here.


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## old medic (Oct 5, 2020)

Lewkat said:


> EMS, should have been called. They'd have handled it professionally.


SURE.... Let the unarmed , unprotected guys get attacked.....
I have been assaulted more than once by out of control folks... from intoxicated on crap to mental cases....
We do have a system set up that LEO stand by, but still have seen the increased agitation just by their presents..
and at times... they think WE are the cops.... cost me 3 cracked ribs one time...
Kicked in the chest because the young man THOUGHT I was a cop....


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

911 said:


> This is my opinion (Because of reasons, which do not need discussing.), which I am entitled to. I didn’t ask, nor do I expect anyone to agree with. Enough said.




 And I to didn't ask , nor expect agreement from anyone, but also i to am entitled to my opinion. And in my opinion there is nothing wrong with either hanging or firing squad.


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I googled it.  Last year 19 people were killed by police in Utah, and 30 more were shot at.  True ly, it’s the Wild West here.




 What were these people doing when they were shot at & killed by the police ? Committing a crime perhaps? Running _from_ the police perhaps ? If one is going to do that? Then they sure as hell are putting _themselves_ in harms way. 

Would you prefer the police ignore the crime committed ? And just let theses thugs run free ?


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> What were these people doing when they were shot at & killed by the police ? Committing a crime perhaps? Running _from_ the police perhaps ? If one is going to do that? Then they sure as hell are putting _themselves_ in harms way.
> 
> Would you prefer the police ignore the crime committed ? And just let theses thugs run free ?


I did not google all the reasons or justifications but perhaps you can explain why a 13 year old disabled child was shot 11 times or even once?  And running from the police-you consider that a justification for deadly force?


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I did not google all the reasons or justifications but perhaps you can explain why a 13 year old disabled child was shot 11 times or even once?  And running from the police-you consider that a justification for deadly force?




  I responded to your post #32 . I never mentioned anything about the shooting of the child.

 As for running from the police , yes IMO that justifies what ever the police on scene deem necessary to stop a fleeing suspect.


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## Keesha (Oct 5, 2020)

Some people must enjoy ‘real’ violence, no matter who it is or why it’s  being done and if the police are doing it then it HAS to be justified. 
Total wackos.


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Some people must enjoy ‘real’ violence, no matter who it is or why it’s  being done and if the police are doing it then it HAS to be justified.
> Total wackos.




 So it is total wacho to support the police ? And be against crime/criminals ? 

 And BTW, I never said a thing about "enjoying" any aspect of it .


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## Sunny (Oct 5, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I read that the mother told the police that the youth had an air gun or pistol



The article says the mother thought he had a bb gun or pellet gun. She had told the police earlier that he "had" a gun, which could mean anything from running around, shooting people with it, or just the fact that he owned a gun. The mother said he was freaked by police. So why then did she call the police?  Something is definitely "off" in this whole story.


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## Della (Oct 5, 2020)

The root problem here is that parents of mentally ill children are forced to call the police when their child is out of control and needs hospitalization when they should be calling doctors. We need to reopen many of the psychiatric hospitals that were closed during the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1970's.  That resulted in hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people living homeless on the streets and the need to call police when we should be calling psychiatric nurses and orderlies to come prepared with syringes of Haldol rather than guns.

If the mother had called the hospital they would have told her she had to call the police to bring him in.  It's standard procedure these days if we want to get care for our mentally ill children.


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## Pepper (Oct 5, 2020)

@Della 
Excellent reply.


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## Sunny (Oct 5, 2020)

That's incredible, Della.


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## win231 (Oct 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> I responded to your post #32 . I never mentioned anything about the shooting of the child.
> 
> As for running from the police , yes IMO that justifies what ever the police on scene deem necessary to stop a fleeing suspect.


Your opinion is not the law.  This cop was convicted of murder when he did that & sentenced to 20 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott

AND, after shooting the suspect, the cop & another cop planted their weapons next to the body to try to justify the shooting.  AND, you can clearly hear the cop yelling _"Put your hands behind your back" _when he knew the suspect was DEAD.
Of course, these two "Heroes" didn't know someone was taping them.


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Your opinion is not the law.  This cop was convicted of murder when he did that & sentenced to 20 years:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott
> 
> AND, after shooting the suspect, the cop & another cop planted their weapons next to the body to try to justify the shooting.  AND, you can clearly hear the cop yelling _"Put your hands behind your back" _when he knew the suspect was DEAD.
> Of course, these two "Heroes" didn't know someone was taping them.




 Well, I never said my opinion was the law. But it should be.

 Just like when the FBI shot down Charles "Pretty-Boy" Floyd , & or when Frank Hammer pursued "Bonnie & Clyde" & ended their crime spree.

 Why is it that today there are so many that want to romanticize these thugs ? Coddle them & treat them with kid gloves? Much of society worries more about the rights of the criminal(s) than they do the victims. And when they [the police] catch them in the act of committing a crime, dealing drugs, making drugs, running guns ....whatever, and a gun battle ensues .... society is more scrutinizing of the police, than what the criminals were up to. ........?


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Your opinion is not the law.  This cop was convicted of murder when he did that & sentenced to 20 years:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott
> 
> AND, after shooting the suspect, the cop & another cop planted their weapons next to the body to try to justify the shooting.  AND, you can clearly hear the cop yelling _"Put your hands behind your back" _when he knew the suspect was DEAD.
> Of course, these two "Heroes" didn't know someone was taping them.



 Why did Scott run, for a taillight out ?? Had he just pulled over , stopped & put his hands on the wheel , like we're supposed to...he'd still be alive today. He killed himself, through his actions.

 I have no sympathy for him.


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## win231 (Oct 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well, I never said my opinion was the law. But it should be.
> 
> Just like when the FBI shot down Charles "Pretty-Boy" Floyd , & or when Frank Hammer pursued "Bonnie & Clyde" & ended their crime spree.
> 
> Why is it that today there are so many that want to romanticize these thugs ? Coddle them & treat them with kid gloves? Much of society worries more about the rights of the criminal(s) than they do the victims. And when they [the police] catch them in the act of committing a crime, dealing drugs, making drugs, running guns ....whatever, and a gun battle ensues .... society is more scrutinizing of the police, than what the criminals were up to. ........?


Sure.  And cops should also be allowed to plant weapons to justify murder.  And cops should also be allowed to plant drugs on a suspect who isn't their favorite color.
You only like criminals who wear a police uniform.


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## Keesha (Oct 5, 2020)

Actually . This is a pointless debate for me so I’m out.


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## Pepper (Oct 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> No surprise. You’ve got no empathy for anyone.


He will be visited by three ghosts this Christmas


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## Keesha (Oct 5, 2020)

Pepper said:


> He will be visited by three ghosts this Christmas


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## RadishRose (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I was stopped a few times on my way home from work by police* even though I had disabled plates and am an older woman. I had a van and it could clearly be seen that I had a walker in the back of my it.* Same for a friend of mine, in the same “shape” as me with disability plates.


Why were you stopped?
The disability flags and your age doesn't explain why you were stopped.
What was the result?


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## 911 (Oct 5, 2020)

I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to post the following video or not. I have always enjoyed listening and watching Larry Elder on his website and his podcasts. He has been a friend to law enforcement, so many may or will think him to be biased. Think what you like, that’s everyone’s prerogative, but it does make sense.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> I responded to your post #32 . I never mentioned anything about the shooting of the child.
> 
> As for running from the police , yes IMO that justifies what ever the police on scene deem necessary to stop a fleeing suspect.


Hmm, a suspect, not a criminal, just a suspect, who could be innocent of anything, or disabled, or scared.  My husband was once a suspect, held at gunpoint, because his car, a pinto, was suspected.  Good thing the car did not run off, my husband d would have had a long walk.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Why were you stopped?
> The disability flags and your age doesn't explain why you were stopped.
> What was the result?


I was stopped because I was driving at after 8/9 o’clock in a residential area.  My friend was stopped because she was driving after 8/9 o’clock in a business area.  We were both asked what we were doing out so late in the areas we were in.  Our plates were run.  Our police always run the plates before a stop.

Our answers were on the way to work.  We both had to show our work badges.  We worked for the only company in that area open 24 hours.   And off we went.  Also, when they ran the plates, they knew we were disabled elderly woman.  We were in our sixties.  We were still stopped.


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, a suspect, not a criminal, just a suspect, who could be innocent of anything, or disabled, or scared.  My husband was once a suspect, held at gunpoint, because his car, a pinto, was suspected.  Good thing the car did not run off, my husband d would have had a long walk.




 If one is not guilty/ indeed innocent ? Why run....? Comply, comply, comply...!


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Sure.  And cops should also be allowed to plant weapons to justify murder.  And cops should also be allowed to plant drugs on a suspect who isn't their favorite color.
> You only like criminals who wear a police uniform.




 I never said a thing about allegedly planting anything ! Do not put words in my mouth !

  Why must you turn this racial ? I am only talking police-v-criminals.  I don't care who the criminal/thugs are, or their color.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> If one is not guilty/ indeed innocent ? Why run....? Comply, comply, comply...!


I believe I explained that already.


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## rgp (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I believe I explained that already.



 I'm sorry but ........ it cannot be explained ! Not when one's life is on the line 

 Again, comply, comply, comply There is no explanation / reason not to .


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## RadishRose (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Also, when they ran the plates, they knew we were disabled elderly woman. We were in our sixties. We were still stopped.


Thanks for the answer, but I don't understand the relevance of "Also, when they ran the plates, they knew we were disabled elderly woman.  We were in our sixties.  We were still stopped. "

But never mind.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 5, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Thanks for the answer, but I don't understand the relevance of "Also, when they ran the plates, they knew we were disabled elderly woman.  We were in our sixties.  We were still stopped. "
> 
> But never mind.


They would have known we were not a threat, IMO, to an officer with a gun or without a gun lol.  Lots of police do not run plates before a traffic stop.  Ours do, they also run plates when they are just driving around, and follow you etc.  They can be annoying .  I think they get bored.


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## win231 (Oct 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Hmm, a suspect, not a criminal, just a suspect, who could be innocent of anything, or disabled, or scared.  My husband was once a suspect, held at gunpoint, because his car, a pinto, was suspected.  Good thing the car did not run off, my husband d would have had a long walk.


A Ford Pinto?  I don't blame the police.  Driving one is crime, all by itself.  I hope his taste has improved since then!


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## Sunny (Oct 6, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I was stopped because I was driving at after 8/9 o’clock in a residential area.  My friend was stopped because she was driving after 8/9 o’clock in a business area.  We were both asked what we were doing out so late in the areas we were in.  Our plates were run.  Our police always run the plates before a stop.
> 
> Our answers were on the way to work.  We both had to show our work badges.  We worked for the only company in that area open 24 hours.   And off we went.  Also, when they ran the plates, they knew we were disabled elderly woman.  We were in our sixties.  We were still stopped.



Aneeda, you are more "understanding" than I would have been. What on earth is wrong with driving after 8 PM in a residential neighborhood?  You could be a resident, you could be visiting someone, or leaving their house, you could be working for them, you could be scouting out the neighborhood, thinking maybe you want to move there, you could be new in the area and be lost, or any one of a million different reasons. I think the police are WAY overstepping their authority, unless they have good reason to stop that particular car. If the car fits the description of a vehicle that was recently used in a crime in that area , that would be a legitimate reason. But just because it was there?


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## Butterfly (Oct 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well, I never said my opinion was the law. But it should be.
> 
> Just like when the FBI shot down Charles "Pretty-Boy" Floyd , & or when Frank Hammer pursued "Bonnie & Clyde" & ended their crime spree.
> 
> Why is it that today there are so many that want to romanticize these thugs ? Coddle them & treat them with kid gloves? Much of society worries more about the rights of the criminal(s) than they do the victims. And when they [the police] catch them in the act of committing a crime, dealing drugs, making drugs, running guns ....whatever, and a gun battle ensues .... society is more scrutinizing of the police, than what the criminals were up to. ........?



A 13 year old autistic child can hardly be characterized as a thug, by any stretch.


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## Nosy Bee-54 (Oct 6, 2020)

In America, word association:


911 said:


> I wasn’t sure whether I wanted to post the following video or not. I have always enjoyed listening and watching Larry Elder on his website and his podcasts. He has been a friend to law enforcement, so many may or will think him to be biased. Think what you like, that’s everyone’s prerogative, but it does make sense.



Word association in America: *police - death*


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## Pepper (Oct 6, 2020)

I think you'll want to edit that.


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## rgp (Oct 7, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> A 13 year old autistic child can hardly be characterized as a thug, by any stretch.




 I have never mentioned that child that was shot. As such , your reply has no meaning/merit.


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## Sunny (Oct 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I have no idea but I’m sure there are plenty of people who  will attempt to justify it, however I’m not going to be one of them.



Not "plenty" of people, Keesha. There is only one.


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## Keesha (Oct 7, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Not "plenty" of people, Keesha. There is only one.


Yayyyy. I’m happy to learn I was wrong. That ‘one’ was a given. No surprise there. Now I need to learn to avoid this type of poison instead of trying to change it. I know better and need to act accordingly. There are FAR more good folks in the world than not. 
Unfortunately sometimes I forget! 
 Thank you.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> I have never mentioned that child that was shot. As such , your reply has no meaning/merit.


And, yet, this thread is about the DISABLED child that was shot.  Plus how is it you are a judge of what has meaning or merit?    Maybe, you are confused and posting your comments in the wrong place which means your posts are meaningless and have no merit on this thread.

I am not saying you comments are meaningless or merit less; I am just saying you can not judge whether they are or not.


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## Aunt Marg (Oct 7, 2020)

win231 said:


> Your opinion is not the law.  This cop was convicted of murder when he did that & sentenced to 20 years:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott
> 
> AND, after shooting the suspect, the cop & another cop planted their weapons next to the body to try to justify the shooting.  AND, you can clearly hear the cop yelling _"Put your hands behind your back" _when he knew the suspect was DEAD.
> Of course, these two "Heroes" didn't know someone was taping them.


Three cheers for the 20 year sentence!

Should have been 100.


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## OneEyedDiva (Oct 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Just to be clear...... your first reaction is to defend the police?
> 
> I know you are going to think I’m picking on you but you seem to completely lack empathy for the child here. Is this not horrible to you?


I didn't see 911's reply as defending police. I felt he was just trying to get clarity as well as to mention that where he's from this was unlikely to have gone down like that.
@911 "
You have to teach them, but If they were born with “Down Syndrome” they are not considered a risk." I don't know about that. Too many cops these days are not wired right...they react rather than think. Anyone may be at risk for being mishandled and assaulted these days. That's becoming more and more evident each day.


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## rgp (Oct 7, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> And, yet, this thread is about the DISABLED child that was shot.  Plus how is it you are a judge of what has meaning or merit?    Maybe, you are confused and posting your comments in the wrong place which means your posts are meaningless and have no merit on this thread.
> 
> I am not saying you comments are meaningless or merit less; I am just saying you can not judge whether they are or not.



 My original response / reply was to a comment made by another poster. As such, I did not take the thread off topic ... they did.

Then when you replied to my response "incorrectly" , noting something I never mentioned, your reply / response was indeed without merit & or point.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> My original response / reply was to a comment made by another poster. As such, I did not take the thread off topic ... they did.
> 
> Then when you replied to my response "incorrectly" , noting something I never mentioned, your reply / response was indeed without merit & or point.


I so like “talking” with you, just saying


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## Butterfly (Oct 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> I have never mentioned that child that was shot. As such , your reply has no meaning/merit.



The child that was shot is the subject of this thread.  Thus, your comments in this thread can be construed to pertain to said incident.


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## rgp (Oct 7, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> The child that was shot is the subject of this thread.  Thus, your comments in this thread can be construed to pertain to said incident.




 Wrong, my comment was to a particular sentence / comment made by another poster!

  Read it how you choose, that's how it is/was.

 I never & still not have commented on the shooting of the child.


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## ELjane (Oct 7, 2020)

Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated?  Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer.  If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued.  Imo.


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## Keesha (Oct 7, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I didn't see 911's reply as defending police. I felt he was just trying to get clarity as well as to mention that where he's from this was unlikely to have gone down like that.
> @911 "
> You have to teach them, but If they were born with “Down Syndrome” they are not considered a risk." I don't know about that. Too many cops these days are not wired right...they react rather than think. Anyone may be at risk for being mishandled and assaulted these days. That's becoming more and more evident each day.


Yes. In hindsight, I agree. My perceptions really off lately. 

Why wouldn’t 911 consider what his squad would have done? He is a police officer after all. Plus he’s a guy so not as outwardly sentimental as women. Probably a good thing. 

For some reason I often think those in positions of power take advantage of others. It’s become a theme in my faulty thinking. Pfft but  I’m working on it.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 8, 2020)

ELjane said:


> Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated?  Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer.  If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued.  Imo.


911 would know about the gun thing, but I think they are trained to empty the clip.


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## Sunny (Oct 8, 2020)

> Plus he’s a guy so not as outwardly sentimental as women. Probably a good thing.



"Sentimental," Keesha?  I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk?  If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.

911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome?  Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?


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## win231 (Oct 8, 2020)

ELjane said:


> Are police so instructed to train their trigger finger to pull their gun's trigger over and over again even when their target is obviously incapacitated?  Something I've noticed that when a person who is accused of causing harm to another dares to ask the arresting officer what he's being accused of and the officer ignores answering, him/her and the already highly upset arrester's temper is so aggravated by the nonanswer he starts a physical fight with the officer.  If the officer had taken the time to talk with the accused, he could have calmed the accused down & the fight would not have ensued.  Imo.


Police are trained to "keep shooting until the threat is neutralized" which pretty much leaves it open to their own interpretation.  When several officers are involved, it often becomes a shooting frenzy where they all want to get in on it - much like we've seen in a police beating.
And when many rounds are fired at a suspect, there is less chance of survival, which means there is no chance of the suspect testifying about the situation.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 8, 2020)

Sunny said:


> "Sentimental," Keesha?  I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk?  If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.
> 
> 911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome?  Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?


I am sure there is no law concerning any disabled person in a law and order situation.  In fact, the ADA specifically excludes disabled persons from special consideration if they cause issues.  Same with service dogs.

If a service dog poops on the floor of the store, it can be kicked out.  We had a service dog, who on a trip had diarrhea in a store.  Large mess in front of the donut case, but when you gotta go you gotta go.  Another service dog we had growled when a person reached for me, kind of lunging at me, dog was banned from from the VA.


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## Keesha (Oct 8, 2020)

Sunny said:


> "Sentimental," Keesha?  I think that's the wrong word. Were you referring to the police accepting the fact that people with Down's syndrome are usually not considered a risk?  If so, that's not being sentimental. It's showing normal human compassion. And you don't have to be female to have it.
> 
> 911, is there an actual law about dealing with people with Down's syndrome?  Are the police supposed to keep their hands off their damn guns in that situation?


No Sunny. That is ‘not’ what I was referring to. I was strictly referring to his initial response. While most of us comment on our shock and horror of the situation, he instantly brought up the fact that the police force he is in wouldn’t have done it that way. His response was a professional opinion of the situation whereas my reaction is one of pure emotion as were many others.

That is what I was referring it to. It certainly wasn’t a criticism.

I guess I would have expected different training for those with impaired mental functioning; like people with autism, mental retardation, Alzheimer’s, dementia etc...but it’s not a subject I know anything about.


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## I'mnotdeadyet (Oct 8, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The article says the mother thought he had a bb gun or pellet gun. She had told the police earlier that he "had" a gun, which could mean anything from running around, shooting people with it, or just the fact that he owned a gun. The mother said he was freaked by police. So why then did she call the police?  Something is definitely "off" in this whole story.



This. I try not to judge news stories based on the first report. There is always something missing, something inaccurate. My first response is that this is nuts, there's no reason for it. And while I am having an extremely difficult time conjuring any explanation in my mind, I'll still wait to hear the rest of the story.



Della said:


> The root problem here is that parents of mentally ill children are forced to call the police when their child is out of control and needs hospitalization when they should be calling doctors. We need to reopen many of the psychiatric hospitals that were closed during the deinstitutionalization movement of the 1970's.  That resulted in hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people living homeless on the streets and the need to call police when we should be calling psychiatric nurses and orderlies to come prepared with syringes of Haldol rather than guns.
> 
> If the mother had called the hospital they would have told her she had to call the police to bring him in.  It's standard procedure these days if we want to get care for our mentally ill children.


True to a degree, but calling a doctor or other medico once things have reached a certain point doesn't help much either. Law enforcement needs people specialized in mental health issues to assist in getting things under control first. These people would be emergency responders that can get to the scene quickly, assess, and direct. Once things have settled down some the decision can be made whether to use medical staff or local law enforcement for the next step. 

But everyone needs to understand that no answer will be correct for every case. There will always be exceptions and caveats.


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## 911 (Oct 8, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> 911 would know about the gun thing, but I think they are trained to empty the clip.


I have been very reluctant to answer these types of questions because my answer may be misconstrued or misinterpreted. Keep in mind that I can only speak for the Pennsylvania State Police and how we are trained. We also train other police departments, but once they leave the Academy, they are more obligated to follow their department’s policies and not our’s.

Police are obliged to follow DOJ policies that have been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. When firing a weapon, our goal is not to maim or injure. Our goal is to completely end the threat, which sometimes may require firing several shots. Shooting to injure will not prevent a suspect from returning fire. OTOH, we do not shoot some felons, for example, someone running down the street holding a stolen bicycle or TV. A clear and present danger of bodily injury must be present. No cop wakes up in the morning thinking, “I’m going to shoot someone today.” It should be every policeman’s objective to quell a situation without killing someone, but there are times when the bad guy has other ideas. Last thing I need to address is that Tasers are good, but not always effective. They are only effective in defined situations. 

I hope this gives you an understanding of our objective.


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## Della (Oct 9, 2020)

I'mnotdeadyet said:


> True to a degree, but calling a doctor or other medico once things have reached a certain point doesn't help much either. Law enforcement needs people specialized in mental health issues to assist in getting things under control first. These people would be emergency responders that can get to the scene quickly, assess, and direct. Once things have settled down some the decision can be made whether to use medical staff or local law enforcement for the next step.
> 
> But everyone needs to understand that no answer will be correct for every case. There will always be exceptions and caveats.


I do understand that no one answer is correct for every case, but currently there is only one answer in use for out of control mentally ill and that is to call the police.

Remember when people used to joke about, "calling the men in the white coats?"  those were vans sent from psychiatric hospitals (not EMS squads) supplied with strong young orderlies trained in management of the mentally ill.  They used medications and sometimes straight jackets to subdue the patient until they arrived at the hospital and were seen by a doctor.  They no longer exist.  Now we ask the police who, while many are given some training in handling these cases,  can't be expected to handle them as well as people whose first calling is the care of mentally ill patients.  Too often the policeman's first reaction is to use the training they use most, the training they've had in confronting criminals.

Sometimes the patient is armed and the police need to be called, but in a case like this young autistic boy, it would have probably spared his life if his mother had, had the option of the "men in white coats," whose first and only training is dealing with the mentally ill.


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 9, 2020)

Della said:


> I do understand that no one answer is correct for every case, but currently there is only one answer in use for out of control mentally ill and that is to call the police.
> 
> Remember when people used to joke about, "calling the men in the white coats?"  those were vans sent from psychiatric hospitals (not EMS squads) supplied with strong young orderlies trained in management of the mentally ill.  They used medications and sometimes straight jackets to subdue the patient until they arrived at the hospital and were seen by a doctor.  They no longer exist.  Now we ask the police who, while many are given some training in handling these cases,  can't be expected to handle them as well as people whose first calling is the care of mentally ill patients.  Too often the policeman's first reaction is to use the training they use most, the training they've had in confronting criminals.
> 
> Sometimes the patient is armed and the police need to be called, but in a case like this young autistic boy, it would have probably spared his life if his mother had, had the option of the "men in white coats," whose first and only training is dealing with the mentally ill.


I have no ideal why she did not call paramedics.  They would have come with the police and could have advised the police about the boy’s condition.  The only plus for my son is that most people recognize a person with DS, but unless they are very knowledgable they would not recognize them from the back.


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## doat (Oct 13, 2020)

police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues.  Was this a police issue to begin with? Seems we call the police far to many times for issues out of the authority. Why didn't the father or other family members assist?


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## Aneeda72 (Oct 13, 2020)

doat said:


> police were called by his mother to help get him to the hospital for his mental issues.  Was this a police issue to begin with? Seems we call the police far to many times for issues out of the authority. Why didn't the father or other family members assist?


I did foster care for mentally ill children.  Most often the police are needed.


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