# Paid sick leave in USA



## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2015)

Really? Paid sick leave isn't given to all US workers?
Over here casual employees get a loading in lieu of annual leave and sick leave entitlements.
For all other employees it is part of the working conditions. Minimum paid sick leave pa is 5 days for FT workers.
Part time workers entitlements are pro rata.



> [h=1]Obama to announce push for paid leave, sick time for workers[/h]WASHINGTON          Wed Jan 14, 2015
> 
> 
> (Reuters) - President Barack Obama will announce on Thursday a handful of initiatives to boost paid leave and sick time, White House adviser Valerie Jarrett said in a statement.
> ...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 14, 2015)

Nope.... not a single one... Corporations wouldn't like it...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 14, 2015)

Also.... NO mandatory paid vacation or leave..  Corporations wouldn't like it..


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## jujube (Jan 14, 2015)

A lot of companies here in the US have some form of PTO (Paid Time Off).   Say, for instance, you might be entitled to 160 hours of "PTO" a year.   You can use it for vacation, odd days off, sick time.   If you're sick a lot, then you don't have much paid vacation.  If you're not sick, then you get a lot of paid vacation.  Recognized holidays don't count toward your PTO.  I think a lot of companies got away from the designated "sick days" because they were being abused.  "Oh, I haven't used all my sick days this year and it's November.....I think I'll call in sick tomorrow."   I know I'm guilty of that....years ago I worked for a major newspaper that wouldn't let you use your vacation days in less than 5-day increments.  So, if you needed to take a day off to wait for the plumber, you pretty much had to call in...cough-cough...sick.


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## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2015)

What about public holidays? Do FT workers get paid for public holidays or are they stood down without pay?


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## jujube (Jan 14, 2015)

Most companies pay for public holidays for full time workers.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 14, 2015)

jujube said:


> A lot of companies here in the US have some form of PTO (Paid Time Off).   Say, for instance, you might be entitled to 160 hours of "PTO" a year.   You can use it for vacation, odd days off, sick time.   If you're sick a lot, then you don't have much paid vacation.  If you're not sick, then you get a lot of paid vacation.  Recognized holidays don't count toward your PTO.  I think a lot of companies got away from the designated "sick days" because they were being abused.  "Oh, I haven't used all my sick days this year and it's November.....I think I'll call in sick tomorrow."   I know I'm guilty of that....years ago I worked for a major newspaper that wouldn't let you use your vacation days in less than 5-day increments.  So, if you needed to take a day off to wait for the plumber, you pretty much had to call in...cough-cough...sick.



The company I work for has PDO... However EVERYTHING comes out of it.. Sick days... vacations  AND Holidays..   Companies have done away with sick days as you said.. 

But keep in mind... companies don't have to offer any PDO...  it's not mandatory as in most countries..  and they have figured out ways to really screw the worker.   In my company, we are not paid in hours, but in dollars..  SO you are using dollars toward your PDO...  BUT remember... Suppose you make $100 a day..  You would use $100 of your PDO to pay for one day off..  Suppose you have a total of $1000 in your PDO. That would be 10 days off.....  BUT then you get a raise and you are now making $150 a day... YEY!!   no... not good for PDO... that same $1000 will now not pay for 10 days any longer... so they are taking BACK PDO.  Alsys rigging the game to their favor... and they can do what they like..


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## WhatInThe (Jan 14, 2015)

I worked with people from Europe/England before and the company happened to be their first full fledged legit job in the US and they were stunned at the low amount of vacation/holiday they could get. Kept complaining about taking time off without pay after hoping the boss would approve it. The only jobs that offer a lot of 'sick' time are union jobs. I know public school teachers who are going to get an extra year's pay as they retire from unused sick days over the course of their career their. This in addition to personal days, vacation etc. Government or union jobs are the only ones that I know of giving unquestioned sick days. Many say they shouldn't label time off anything just give the employee several weeks a year off no questions asked wether it be for sickness, vacation or personal stuff. If there is a serious chronic long term problem that should addressed as a separate issue.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 14, 2015)

The point of the OP is that most countries mandate that companies give employees a set amount of sick time.. vacation time...etc...  We are the only country that does not make it mandatory... companies can decide how much or how little time is given.   We are also the only country with no paid maternity leave.  Let's face facts.... The USA places more value on Corporations interests than the American worker.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 14, 2015)




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## 123Testing (Jan 14, 2015)

The Agency I worked for, didn't matter what the excuse was.... PTO (Paid Time Off) could be a vacation or a sick day. You decide how you want to use it. Problem is.... The Agency had the Right to Control it... in otherwords.... I could call in sick, but the Agency had the 'right' to DENY ME that PAY! 

Their excuse might be.... "but we had to pay others OT to cover your shift"..... grrrrr.... really?.... seriously????

I just lost my job New Years Eve... guess what? I had accrued OVER 80 hrs OT..... but I'm not going to get it! The Agency doesn't have to dish out extra money to pay you your PTO because you are no longer with the company.

What a crock of sh*t! I lost track how many times I REQUESTED VACATION PTO... and was DENIED because the Agency claimed it was understaffed and my request was a 'hardship burden' on the Company.

<whatever>


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 14, 2015)

I had a union job (Teamsters), so we got sick pay, paid vacations, etc.  I don't remember exactly how much sick pay you could accumulate, I think it was a couple of weeks, and it was a use it or lose it basis.  They were good about letting you put your vacations back to back too, once I took an 8 week vacation, other times 6 weeks.  They also gave people unpaid leaves if needed in emergency situations.


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## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2015)

What is a union job? Are there some jobs where union membership is not allowed?
What about the right to freedom of association?


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## AZ Jim (Jan 14, 2015)

When I worked I was a salaried employee and I got unlimited sick leave.  I had back surgery and took 6 weeks sick leave.  Even our hourly folks got 5 days per year.  I never heard of a company that had no sick leave.


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## Butterfly (Jan 14, 2015)

A lot of small businesses have no real sick leave policy.  The firm I worked for was very stingy, crabby and suspicious with sick leave.  Of course, that firm was very stingy, crabby and suspicious about everything.  If I was too sick to go to work I called in sick -- they could like it or lump it.  Too sick to go to work is too sick to go to work.

The deck here is VERY stacked against the employee, especially in non-union and smaller businesses in an at-will state (at-will means they can fire you if they don't like the way your hair looks that day).


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## SeaBreeze (Jan 14, 2015)

Union jobs are where you can't work there unless you join the union and pay union dues.  The dues are reasonable in comparison to the benefits of decent pay, paid vacations, free or low cost healthcare for you and your family, etc.  The union representative will also assist if you've been unjustly disciplined or fired by the management.  I was voted in as Union Steward, and often helped employees by representing them in unemployment hearings, termination arbitrations (court type hearing between the employer and union), etc. 

Most jobs aren't union, and pay the lowest minimum wage scale to their employees.


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## Ameriscot (Jan 14, 2015)

The only job I had in the US that gave me sick leave and good annual leave was when I worked at a state university. One day per month sick and you could donate days to a sick leave bank so anyone including you could draw on it if you had an extended illness and had run out of sick/annual leave.

I earned 13 days a year annual leave which changed to 19 days after 5 years. And all the public holidays off including 6 days at Xmas.

In the UK I got 20 days annual leave.


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## Warrigal (Jan 14, 2015)

What you call union jobs we would call closed shops - no ticket, no start.
These are not legal anymore. Nor is it legal to have a union free enterprise.
McDonalds has tried to break this down but the law is against them.

Union membership is totally voluntary. No one can legally make you join the union for your occupation, neither can they prevent you. When I was a member of the Teachers' Federation I discovered that I would have been classified as an "involuntary communist" if I had sought a visitor's visa to the USA. I thought that was a total hoot.


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## oldman (Jan 15, 2015)

Here in the U.S. there are states that if there are companies within the state that have unions and the unions "force" workers to join the union within 30 days or whatever their rules are can be over-ruled in some states that are classified as "right-to-work" states", which means workers in those states that have unions do not have to join and may still keep their job. The downside to doing this is that because the majority of workers are union members, those workers that decide to go it alone are bullied and harassed by their fellow employees and although it is illegal to do so, nonetheless, it is still done. 

I was a member of the Pilot's union and I have no complaints about sick leave, personal time off, holidays, vacation time, or PAY. But, not everything is rosey. I never liked the way we had to bid on getting the routes for our flights. It would take too long to explain, but for the most part, it was unfair and only aided a few.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 15, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> What is a union job? Are there some jobs where union membership is not allowed?
> What about the right to freedom of association?



Another Holy Grail of the Republican party is "Union Busting"...  particularly public unions... and making every State a "Right to work" state.. which means that in shops with private unions, joining isn't mandatory... yet non-union employees get the same benefits as union.. therefore the incentive to join the union is gone.... SO the union is broken.    This is solely for the benefit of the Corporations... again.... AND they have done a bang up job of convincing the uninformed that Unions are a BAD BAD thing.... and that people in them are getting HUGE benefits and pensions...  Americans being as they are seem to HATE the fact that someone else is getting anything they aren't... so stupidly... they vote for Republicans and union busting.   Again voting against their own interests... as every US worker should have the protection of a union.   People should be fighting for THAT...  not for doing away with unions.


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 15, 2015)

The collapse of unions is probably the biggest cause of fall of the working class in the US.  As one analyst has pointed out they have lost their clout with the politicians who only listen to corporations now...


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## Warrigal (Jan 15, 2015)

The union movement began from nothing. 
 It could do the same again if the corporations get too far out of control.
 However, it was a bloody struggle and would be again.
 Are the workers up for that ?
 Probably not.

Workers don't even call themselves working class these days.
Everyone is middle class it seems.


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 15, 2015)

Texas is a right to work State..No union can force you to join.

Sick days are the most abused benefit in my opinion!!


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 15, 2015)

Both political parties are a little wary of lettings things go too far, so they will keep throwing some crumbs to the masses to keep them from becoming violent...


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## rkunsaw (Jan 15, 2015)

The company I worked for had no paid sick leave but we had 12 paid holidays per year and I got 4 weeks paid vacation per year. 

Paid time off for any reason adds to the cost of doing business so it's only natural for companies to want to keep it to a minimum. When unemployment levels are high companies don't have to offer much in the way of perks ( or wages either) to get workers. When workers are scarce (especially skilled workers) companies offer more.

Companies that have union contracts the pay and perks are negotiated but unions have been declining for the last 50 years.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 15, 2015)

This pretty well illustrates how union membership has declined in the US mostly because of the efforts of Corporatist Republicans starting with Ronald Reagan.. who actually began the war on unions.   Is it surprising to note that wages have stagnated for the average American while corporate profits are at record highs??  Can we put two and two together here folks?   Yet people keep buy the BS that someone is getting something for nothing... an that just ain't right!!!  Rather than fight for EVERYONE to have better wages and benefits... let's knock America down to the lowest common denominator... and no one gets ahead..  Great plan... and ya know what?   Sadly... it's working.


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## Jackie22 (Jan 15, 2015)

Unions have always allowed workers to get what they deserve, corporations want to dole out the crumbs...so therefore unions are being eliminated by the minions of the corporations..... Republicans.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 15, 2015)

I was offered a darn good salaried job once, but turned it down due to no benefits, including medical.

The manufacturing companies that I worked for, I had paid vacation, paid sick leave and holiday pay. I remember one such company that I was getting ready to quit (2-week notice) and my Manager told me "you still have a sick day left on the books that you won't get when you leave." So, I called in sick two days later from a payphone next to Denny's where I was going to have breakfast. My Manager knew what I was doing and said "hope you feel better, see you tomorrow". 

Now, my wife did work for a Temp Agency, in 2009/2010 where she didn't get any benefits including no health insurance, no sick pay or holiday pay, but she did get a descent salary. She didn't like the "no benefits" thing, but she wanted a job. At the time, I was having an extremely hard time finding one. Anyway, we didn't like it, but she had to go to work with a bad cold b/c she had no health insurance or sick pay. After working for the Temp Agency for a year, on one job, she did ask for, and received, 3 days off paid vacation. That was nice. 

At my wife's job now, working in the banking/mortgage industry, she gets 4 weeks off per year, 5 days Sick Pay, full medical/dental/vision and company discounts. She's been at her job for 4 years and hopes to stay til she is 70 and *THAT'S IT*......she retires and we move. Like me, she will be on SS, but it will be Late Retirement and $7k more per year.


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## Capt Lightning (Jan 15, 2015)

All these graphs confuse me.  When I was working, sick leave depended on your employer and your terms&conditions.  
People can  take up to 7 days off without a doctor's certificate.  For my employer, full pay , less Statutory  Sick Pay (SSP)  after the first week, was paid for up to 3 months.  Some people who were hourly paid didn't have so much luck.  For them it was no work, no pay until after the first week when they got SSP.  Many used to talk about "not being able to afford to be ill".

Of course, in the UK we have the National Health Service, so all medical treatment is free at point of delivery.  Many firms also offered private medical care which gave the convenience of having treatment when it suited rather than having to wait months and months.


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## BobF (Jan 15, 2015)

I have worked both union and non union jobs while in the working age groups.   I was in construction, labor.   In factories, labor.   I also worked in non union companies, technical jobs in mechanical design.   I have been full time and part time, contract, worker.   I had no problems in either style of job.   My longest career was with a non union job where advancement was open and not related to any union, or non union, rules.   My life time longest job was to a non union corporation that has been able to flex and change almost instantly to meet newest demands from the markets.   Plants would open as needs demanded.   Plants would also close if they became a problem to the business.   I liked the non union system of this company as my wages depended on the jobs I would take  or wished to stay with.   I watched as some became leaders and entered into management style jobs.   Something I just could not do myself successfully.   I was more into doing things than telling others how to do.

For this job that turned into my career, vacation was earned based on years of service.   First year based on date of hire and maybe none or up to three and on first full year 5 vacation.   Second to 10 years earned 2 weeks.    I think then it was 11 through 15 got 3 weeks vacation.   Two weeks earned were expected to be used each year and the remainder could be banked for future usage.   I used a lot on short one or two days off work to satisfy my kids needs and would at times take a long family trip for the kids education idea.   In the end I had lots of vacation banked and like others the company ordered us to a lower level of banked vacation days.   So we had to do that for sure or got a cash buy out as I remember.

Medical was not on a given schedule or limitation.    Medical was as needed.    Hospital was of course monitored and supported as needed.   Unions did want to get accepted but lost on all their campaigns.    The company is still union free today, and hopefully will stay that ways too.   For me, that experience was much better than living in the many stages of union employment of my earlier jobs.   Items that I considered to restricting by the job rules.   My experiences for sure.    I have worked for union and non union back and forth as needs an jobs were available.   What I just spoke of was my near 30 years in a non union experience that I really liked for its personal wages setups, benefits for days off or sick situations, pretty liberal as I saw them.   Sickness was not a specific number of days off and it was all tied into medical needs and doctors requests for me or my family.

I think in the market place there might be needs for both, but neither should get mandatory control over the working folks of the US.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 15, 2015)

Some companies here in the "good old US of A" will make a person get a notice from their doctor if they take a sick day off. Apparently these companies feel that any sickness requires the employee to see a doctor. That's a bunch of bull!


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## QuickSilver (Jan 15, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> Some companies here in the "good old US of A" will make a person get a notice from their doctor if they take a sick day off. Apparently these companies feel that any sickness requires the employee to see a doctor. That's a bunch of bull!



I agree....  although at my company, they only require a doctor's note if you will be off more than 3 days.  Sometimes a bad cold will require more than 3 days off.. but no need to see a doc... He can't do anything for a cold anyway.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 15, 2015)

I accrue PDO (includes sick,holidays,vacation) at a specific rate.  The longer I am here, the higher the rate...  I now get 11% of my salary put into my PDO account.  It's paid in $$ rather than in hours.     Long term disability is provided for free by the company, but you must be off 90 days for that to kick in and it's only 60% of your salary.  You have the option of purchasing short term disability that will kick in right away... AFTER you have used all your PDO.... and that also is only 60% of your pay.  AND it's pretty expensive.


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## BobF (Jan 15, 2015)

For an employer that is paying you wages for your sick days it is important that they do have a right to know if you are sick of just playing the game for you checks.   I had been on jobs where my absence meant missed schedules so the company had justification for knowing my status.   Not all jobs are repetitive look alike jobs that nearly any one can fill.   For better future benefits and care the business side needs to have open and honest relations with all employees.


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## jujube (Jan 15, 2015)

We used to joke "I've used up all my sick days....I'll have to call in dead."


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## Warrigal (Jan 15, 2015)

ClassicRockr said:


> Some companies here in the "good old US of A" will make a person get a notice from their doctor if they take a sick day off. Apparently these companies feel that any sickness requires the employee to see a doctor. That's a bunch of bull!



The counter to this is to come to work with your migraine and lie down at work.
Ditto if you are coughing and sneezing. Infect the rest of the office.
Make them send you home and they soon discover the practicality of single days off without a certificate.

The reality is that doctors don't make home visits and sometimes you just feel too sick to visit the doctor's office.
After 24 hours in bed you may feel well enough to return to work without the aid of a doctor.


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## Butterfly (Jan 15, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> The counter to this is to come to work with your migraine and lie down at work.
> Ditto if you are coughing and sneezing. Infect the rest of the office.
> Make them send you home and they soon discover the practicality of single days off without a certificate.
> 
> ...



The reality where I worked was that if you came to work and lay down, you'd probably be fired; AND, the boss didn't give a flip if the rest of the workforce was infected, too.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 15, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> The reality where I worked was that if you came to work and lay down, you'd probably be fired; AND, the boss didn't give a flip if the rest of the workforce was infected, too.



Yeah... they pay lip service to not wanting everyone to get sick.. but woe betide the worker who calls in sick.. It's always held against you.


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## Don M. (Jan 15, 2015)

The company I worked for was quite good about sick days and vacations, etc.  We all worked in "teams", and if someone called in sick, the rest of us had to pick up the slack.  That pretty much fostered an attitude of Not abusing the privilege.  If someone did get sick, we could pretty well assume they really were.  We didn't have any specific limits on the number of sick days.  One time, I blew a disc in my back, and spent a couple of days in the hospital, then a couple of weeks of home rest, followed by a couple of months of therapy, and light duty at work.  All I heard from the company was..."follow the doctors orders, and get well".  

The vacation accrual started with 2 weeks off beginning the first full year of employment, then 3 weeks after 10 years, and 4 weeks after 25 years.  We could take it all, or save half of it every year.  When I retired, I got a nice extra check for over 70 days of vacations I hadn't taken.  Needless to say, the employee morale was usually pretty good, and everyone tried to do their best every day.  It was a Win/Win for everyone.  When a company makes an effort to treat its employees with respect, the company usually prospers.


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## Susie (Jan 16, 2015)

Corporations wouldn't like it!
Are these very corporations regularly checked and inspected for income tax purposes, accounting practices, fair treatment of workers?
Does a worker have the right to sue for unfair treatment, or must he sign a contract, promising never to sue under any circumstances?


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## Butterfly (Jan 16, 2015)

Susie said:


> Corporations wouldn't like it!
> Are these very corporations regularly checked and inspected for income tax purposes, accounting practices, fair treatment of workers?
> Does a worker have the right to sue for unfair treatment, or must he sign a contract, promising never to sue under any circumstances?



I've never seen any checking for "fair" employment practices other than wage & hour stuff, OSHA stuff, etc.  Just general lousy treatment of employees goes on all the time, mostly quite invisible to an outsider -- stuff like making it difficult to take time off, trying to usurp your lunch hour for staff meetings, etc.  A business can meet all the government standards (mostly geared to safety, and still treat their employees like crap.  Complain about it and you're out of a job.


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

So, America may be the Land of the Free but Oz is the Workers' Paradise.
You don't want to know about our working conditions. :grin:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

Hmm, a bunch of commies after all...


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

We'll keep the red flag flying high ...

... and we'll keep our 4 weeks annual leave, sick leave, penalty rates for overtime and unsociable hours and most of all we'll keep our long service leave.

Solidarity rools. :hatlaugh:


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

Are you a Lennist or a Troskyite?


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

The Trots are so passé. :grin:


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## QuickSilver (Jan 16, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I've never seen any checking for "fair" employment practices other than wage & hour stuff, OSHA stuff, etc.  Just general lousy treatment of employees goes on all the time, mostly quite invisible to an outsider -- stuff like making it difficult to take time off, trying to usurp your lunch hour for staff meetings, etc.  A business can meet all the government standards (mostly geared to safety, and still treat their employees like crap.  Complain about it and you're out of a job.




Yeah that goes on all the time with the lunch hour... Ha..more like 30 minutes)   They call a meeting and tell you to bring your lunch.. oh sure... I'll be there!  Ha...   That's BS... We don't get paid for that lunch break... yet they want us to sit an listen to their crap...


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

Depends what you eat...


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## QuickSilver (Jan 16, 2015)

I've been feeling liberated of late...  I'm working because I like to.. and because my position is hard to fill and they asked me to consider staying.. A fact I remind them of when they pull their silly crap...   Just last Tuesday in a meeting I told them if I no longer enjoyed coming there.. I would stop.   They understand..   BUT... I've taken 40 years of eating you know what... to get to this point.


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hmm, a bunch of commies after all...



Define commie. I'm sure you're not one of those who use the terms commie, socialist, and fascist interchangeably, right?


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## Ralphy1 (Jan 16, 2015)

No, some are Right some are Left...


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## rkunsaw (Jan 16, 2015)

Those who aren't right are wrong.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 16, 2015)

Unfortunately too many people will not wind up using those sick days for actual illness-a hangover or "defective" alarm clock maybe. They'll schedule appointments, take 3-4 day weekends, go fishing, swimming, hunting, paint,fix etc. This is what I've seen with companies that offered them. It would be nice if someone is expelling fluids out of their body they would take off but that's not reality which was my criteria, especially the one requiring a bathroom. I would make it tougher to fire someone for illness. And companies should be incentivized to give employees more paid sick days and time off but it shouldn't be mandated. I've simply seen too much abuse over the years. And a lot of smaller companies simply can't afford. The small companies I worked allowed sickdays but no pay, unless it was running problem it was no problem as far as job security.

Anecdotal but I had jobs that if you were willing to accept discipline ie write ups and/or warnings you could double your "vacation" time. There were people that planned out their sick days every year. So the company clamped down on things like doctor's notes including lowering the required note from the 4th day to the 3rd and/or upon demand or no pay.


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## Ken N Tx (Jan 16, 2015)

https://www.seniorforums.com/showthread.php/11430-Chinese-Sick-Leave


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## QuickSilver (Jan 16, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Unfortunately too many people will not wind up using those sick days for actual illness-a hangover or "defective" alarm clock maybe. They'll schedule appointments, take 3-4 day weekends, go fishing, swimming, hunting, paint,fix etc. This is what I've seen with companies that offered them. It would be nice if someone is expelling fluids out of their body they would take off but that's not reality which was my criteria, especially the one requiring a bathroom. I would make it tougher to fire someone for illness. And companies should be incentivized to give employees more paid sick days and time off but it shouldn't be mandated. I've simply seen too much abuse over the years. And a lot of smaller companies simply can't afford. The small companies I worked allowed sickdays but no pay, unless it was running problem it was no problem as far as job security.
> 
> Anecdotal but I had jobs that if you were willing to accept discipline ie write ups and/or warnings you could double your "vacation" time. There were people that planned out their sick days every year. So the company clamped down on things like doctor's notes including lowering the required note from the 4th day to the 3rd and/or upon demand or no pay.



Apparently everyone else in the world are much more trustworthy, and have a better work ethic than Americans.. because we are the ONLY country that does not have mandatory vaction and sick time..  Our Corporations have caught on to what a bunch of shiftless low lives we are and put a stop to our nonsense....   right?


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yeah that goes on all the time with the lunch hour... Ha..more like 30 minutes)   They call a meeting and tell you to bring your lunch.. oh sure... I'll be there!  Ha...   That's BS... We don't get paid for that lunch break... yet they want us to sit an listen to their crap...



Your lunch break is not part of your paid time? You are a backward country with respect to industrial relations.

Our child care workers are guaranteed 30 mins uninterrupted time off for lunch and a 10 minute crib break for either morning or afternoon tea. 
Because both are part of their paid hours (38 hrs per week) they are expected to remain on site during that time.
However, they are expected to stay back once a month for a staff meeting in their own time.


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## BobF (Jan 16, 2015)

Every job I have held in the US, union or non union, my lunch half hour or hour was on my time.   So I could start at 7am and be done at 15:30pm (3:30pm) if on a 30 minute lunch break, or 4pm if on a 1 hour lunch.    We would also get a 10 or 15 minute potty break mid morning and mid afternoon.   This is for the hourly rated folks.

Now later on, years of knowledge and experience and many of us would get raised to a non exempt pay status.   Then the schedules were less concerned and much was expected to be done on schedule.    We would be allowed/expected to work overtime to help meet the schedule and were paid higher base wages and if enough overtime was recorded we would see that also in our checks.   Incidentals like schedule potty breaks were no longer needed as we used the restrooms as needed.

I preferred the scheduled clock hours for the routine but I also liked the non exempt setup for the higher wages and my freedom to work early and late in order to make schedules.   While raising my family, money meant a lot.

Any time a meeting was mandatory it had to be posted to the clock, and not on lunch time per the ways the companies I worked for operated.


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## WhatInThe (Jan 16, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Apparently everyone else in the world are much more trustworthy, and have a better work ethic than Americans.. because we are the ONLY country that does not have mandatory vaction and sick time..  Our Corporations have caught on to what a bunch of shiftless low lives we are and put a stop to our nonsense....   right?



The premise, not a law demanding more sick and vacation days should come to America. The big corporations could probably handle it. The smaller companies or organizations not so much. I know unions that have a vacation fund in which the employee and employer contribute to and that's how they get they 'paid' days. But if they callout sick or take a couple of days it's coming out of that fund. But that's the sacrifice for a 30 dollar an hour job that has a tight schedule and budget as is.

I've had jobs or was involved in certain projects where I was nervous taking vacation. Not so much my job wouldn't be there upon return but what someone might do with the job good or bad or something happens and I'm not there to answer for it. I always tried clean loose ends prior, no surprises was always my motto. I might not get let go on the spot but most work places have a list that includes the first to be canned if need be and who they would keep no questions asked.

In someway I agree the premise or concept of more vacation and sick days needs to be explored.


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## Warrigal (Jan 16, 2015)

Productivity depends on workers not being burnt out, which is why recreation leave is essential and it should be taken. 
Wise employers will see that it is taken each year.


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## Ameriscot (Jan 16, 2015)

I was always an hourly employee and in both the US and UK my lunchtime was not paid. Breaktimes were though.


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## Butterfly (Jan 17, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Apparently everyone else in the world are much more trustworthy, and have a better work ethic than Americans.. because we are the ONLY country that does not have mandatory vaction and sick time..  Our Corporations have caught on to what a bunch of shiftless low lives we are and put a stop to our nonsense....   right?



No doubt.


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## Butterfly (Jan 17, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Productivity depends on workers not being burnt out, which is why recreation leave is essential and it should be taken.
> Wise employers will see that it is taken each year.



The thing is, employers do not care whether you are burnt out or not.  If you quit doing your job to their satisfaction (or they decide you are a pain in the butt for whatever reason), they will just can you and hire the next guy in line.  Employers do not give a hoot about the health or welfare of the employee.


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## BobF (Jan 17, 2015)

Extended vacation times were a result of length of employment in most places I worked, as I remember.    First, incomplete year, days by when started, first full year would be one week.    Than after 2 years two weeks vacation.   After 10 years it became 3 weeks vacation time.    I believe that after 15 years it became 4 weeks and after 20 years it became 5 weeks vacation.    We were told to use 2 weeks, if available, each year and the remainder could then be banked for a future time but if a certain amount had been banked, then all days over that amount had to be taken each year.   On retirement, or leaving, the amount of vacation time in the bank would be paid in cash.   In my experience, 40 hours would be considered a full week of work in the US.    I think that is still the measurement for full employment in the US and there is a lower number of 30 hours or less is considered to be part time work.   On part time classification many regular employees benefits do not apply.

These increments would not be the same for all employers as that depended on the company policy or the union agreements.


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## Warrigal (Jan 17, 2015)

> On part time classification many regular employees benefits do not apply.


Permanent part time employees over here receive the same entitlements as full time workers on a pro rata basis.
Casual employees do not receive these entitlements but do receive a  % age loading on the hourly rate to compensate for them.


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## BobF (Jan 17, 2015)

In the US, each part time job is between the employer and the employee.   In many areas now that is about all that is available and part time becomes the way many must work.   Pro rated means they get less, no matter how it is figured.    That is also covered in our tax laws and state regulations so businesses do pay according to rules and laws.   In the US most laws are from bottom up, city or state rules, so our federal laws become the result of many local laws rather than some supposed genius at the federal level making the laws.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 17, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> Permanent part time employees over here receive the same entitlements as full time workers on a pro rata basis.
> Casual employees do not receive these entitlements but do receive a  % age loading on the hourly rate to compensate for them.



That's how it should be... BUT here, for some reason, as you can see by some responses.. Americans don't want anyone to have much.. particularly in the way of entitlements and benefits.. There is a general brainwashing that Corporatations are somehow in control and Americans are dependent on their benevolence...   Rather than understanding Corporations could NOT exist without workers either, they agree with their general mistreatment and unfairness.

I think this all started when our Congress fought against Roosevelt when he  first proposed Universal healthcare in the early 1900's.. bowing to the wishes and greed of large insurance companies... Our healthcare was forever tied to our employers and private insurance...which of course gives them additional power over workers..  Just another barrel to hold over our collective heads. People are then dependent on this protection for their familes..and put up with all sorts of abuse to keep it. 

Unions began to develope and gain power.. and some power DID shift to labor giving workers the ability to negotiate wages and benefits..... BUT.. as we have discussed... the GOP has fought tooth and nail to "bust" unions... to return nearly ALL of the power to Employers..   People here ARE treated much worse than in Europe and other countries... and what is insane.. is that many Americans keep voting to keep it that way..  ANYTHING that benefits people is seen as Socialist.... or communist... or whatever.. and one political party does it's best to keep it that way..   OF course... because it's the large donations to campaign funds coming from special interests that keeps them in office.

Seems to me that the "Stockholm syndrome applies here.. 

*



			Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] The FBI's Hostage Barricade Database System shows that roughly 8% of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome.[SUP][3]

Click to expand...



What else can explain how SOME people continue to defend the mistreatment and unfairness of Employers while insulting and complaining about fellow Americans instead..  It's irrational, but look at some of these responses..  WHAT else can explain it? [/SUP]*


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## WhatInThe (Jan 17, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That's how it should be... BUT here, for some reason, as you can see by some responses.. Americans don't want anyone to have much.. particularly in the way of entitlements and benefits.. There is a general brainwashing that Corporatations are somehow in control and Americans are dependent on their benevolence...   Rather than understanding Corporations could NOT exist without workers either, they agree with their general mistreatment and unfairness.
> 
> I think this all started when our Congress fought against Roosevelt when he  first proposed Universal healthcare in the early 1900's.. bowing to the wishes and greed of large insurance companies... Our healthcare was forever tied to our employers and private insurance...which of course gives them additional power over workers..  Just another barrel to hold over our collective heads. People are then dependent on this protection for their familes..and put up with all sorts of abuse to keep it.
> 
> ...



Having worked union and non union, "union" is not the fix all or one stop solution for employee treatment. There is definitely 'a' need for unions, they have their place in the US economy. An employee should have representation of some kind if for no other reason most management decisions or documents an employee signs are run by their lawyers. There are safety issues but those pesky insurance have helped insert safety standards into the work place to limit costs/liability.
And with all the required and provided safety programs one of the biggest problems with lets say the iron workers/union workers is not strapping in especially at the lower but still high elevations(I've talked to OHSA and insurance people about this, the iron workers are 'notorious' for not using their provided harnesses and straps) At the same time I've seen management violate the contract on purpose making the employee file a grievance for every little thing. Point being it still comes down to the individuals involved. Nothing is set in stone. 

Ok lets say the fast food workers get unionized and higher pay. Lets say the company even keeps them full-time. Now to get promoted, transferred, or even a different shift there are not only management rules but union policy ie seniority. Point is you can get bogged down in a union environment in a heartbeat. And that 15 dollar an job flipping burgers won't be the same 10 years later. I know tradesman who needed additional training & certifications to get many of the jobs the union had contracts with but there was a five year waiting list. In the meantime layoff/no work time was increasing. He had to go pay for the training himself as did others. He also had to turn down overtime when he was working to go to school. The same union recently told him retire early with 80% of your benefits because they had trouble finding their members work. Also told him don't work in a non union shop even part-time or we will pull your retirement.

Unions have their place but a mandated fixture in the workplace is not one of them.


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## QuickSilver (Jan 17, 2015)

hmmmm...  I disagree... Do you not see a correlation between the stagnation and sometimes decline in wages  to the elimination of many unions over the last 30 years?

I'm not saying that unions cannot get too powerful.. or make unattainable demands, but they are necessary IMO..  The American worker is paying the prive for the war against them.


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## BobF (Jan 17, 2015)

One of the problems with the major companies of the US is that they now get much of their products built in foreign countries where rules and regulations and wages are much smaller than in the US.   Companies must prepare and protect their existence for the thousands of stockholders that own those companies.   Businesses that fail to provide profits for the stockholders will lose their investors and go out of business.   Then no wages or benefits for the employees at all.   As of now, so much pressure put on the business world of the US that constantly increasing wages and benefits means they will go out of business, as many have done.   This is not a place when we want the government in there with false funding and such as that just creates an ever expanding failure mode, that will eventually fail anyway.

We, in the US, now have a false economy when first time employees working part time schedules can get large hourly wages and benefits too.   What will the prices at the burger stands do now?    They will go up to where many folks can no longer go there for a lunch and drink.   Just another step in the inevitable cost of living rise that will again demand that even higher wages must occur.

My first job, while in high school paid 25 cents and hour.   My first job out of high school, construction labor, paid $1.40 per hour.    My first industrial job paid $1 per hour but included some basic medical coverage and some vacation earnings.   Now we hear of $15 per hour for a burger job?    

Our national debt is already at $18 trillion and still climbing up.    Rather scary to hear that some folks think we need more wages and benefits to exist.    I remember back when if out of work we would take anything.   We could not just sit back and wait for something good to happen.   That seems to be the solution these days.    Sit and wait and hope, till all the local, state, and federal hand outs finally are gone.  

I don't see companies as our enemy at all.    If they can hold their positions and make some profits too, their stock holders will remain and the company will prosper and be able to pay the wages and benefits with no problems.   We then all are better off.


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