# In the UK they say the children going to prison will double, and total smacking ban needed



## grahamg (Apr 28, 2022)

Two news stories took my eye in the UK in the last week, one concerned considerations in our government for a total smacking ban to be imposed upon parents, whilst at the same time another prediction being made by some government body is that the numbers of children being sent to prison is likely to double in the next couple of years!

Maybe I've got this wrong, but further undermining decent parents, (our current government position on smacking being "its okay as long as it doesn't leave a mark", which seems fair to me), is proposed at the same time as some appalling behaviour must be on the increase, requiring jail time for young people/children, at no doubt vast cost, with little prospect I'd guess that it will do anyone any good!

Maybe we've got something wrong here, in our " child's best interests" social policies, leading to ever weakening roles for parents, (and you'd have to say the total exclusion of so many of us, especially dads).


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## Murrmurr (Apr 28, 2022)

I totally agree that government unreasonably interferes in parenting, but it's obvious to me that certain movies, video games and music, and easy access to drugs and alcohol also contribute to kids turning bad.


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## grahamg (Apr 28, 2022)

Murrmurr said:


> I totally agree that government unreasonably interferes in parenting, but it's obvious to me that certain movies, video games and music, and easy access to drugs and alcohol also contribute to kids turning bad.


All those things have to play their part, but my response whenever anyone mentions trouble young folks are experiencing far too much of is "who actually loves that child"?, (and excluded loving dads, or some mums, ain't able to show their love, or take any real responsibility).

Not that my child was ever likely to succumb to the list you've given us, and she received plenty of love without mine, I know that too, but if she'd never had any love from me, as I'd say my ex wife would have maybe preferred, (so much did she do to exclude me), then things might not have turned out so well for her.

BTW I learned yesterday I'm a grandfather again, another boy, though I didn't know my daughter and her husband were expecting again, (no surprise on that score however!).


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## Lavinia (Apr 28, 2022)

I still find it strange how downright stupid politicians are. They know very well that our prisons are overflowing, there is a backlog of criminal cases  waiting to be heard;  yet they can't see the connection between the lack of discipline and guidance, and the increase in lawlessness.


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## Trish (Apr 29, 2022)

I think, if you are committed into custody in the UK and you are under eighteen, you are sent to a secure unit for young people rather than a prison.  

I have never understood the belief that smacking a child is a positive form of punishment and prevents poor behaviour in the future.  Surely a child who is exposed to physical punishment is more likely to grow into an aggressive adolescent?


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## win231 (Apr 29, 2022)

Trish said:


> I think, if you are committed into custody in the UK and you are under eighteen, you are sent to a secure unit for young people rather than a prison.
> 
> I have never understood the belief that smacking a child is a positive form of punishment and prevents poor behaviour in the future.  Surely a child who is exposed to physical punishment is more likely to grow into an aggressive adolescent?


As a child of a parent who took out her frustrations by beating her kids (under the cloak of "discipline,") I couldn't figure out why I behaved the way I did in elementary school. I'd find a kid who was smaller than me & beat him up.  By the time I was older, I realized that I was only doing what my idiotic mother taught me - that it's OK to hurt others as long as they're smaller & weaker than you.
Yes, parents who hit their kids are just plain ignorant.


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## Pepper (Apr 29, 2022)

grahamg said:


> BTW I learned yesterday I'm a grandfather again, another boy, though I didn't know my daughter and her husband were expecting again, (no surprise on that score however!).


That breaks my heart to hear.  The same thing has been happening to me concerning my nephews, their marriages, their children, all of which I only learned about through other sources.  We were once very very close.  I understand how truly painful such a situation is.


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## Em in Ohio (Apr 29, 2022)

I see a difference between smacking a child on the rear and beating a child.  All children are different, even within the same family.  Some never need more than a stern look.  Others may need a different approach.  None of the friends that I grew up with who got an occasional smack on the behind turned out abusive.  My mother was a harping, hateful person who constantly abused my father and me mentally.  I often wished she would just smack me and be done with it.


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## grahamg (Apr 29, 2022)

Pepper said:


> That breaks my heart to hear.  The same thing has been happening to me concerning my nephews, their marriages, their children, all of which I only learned about through other sources.  We were once very very close.  I understand how truly painful such a situation is.


Not so painful now because I've decided the system is at fault, not my daughter per se, (just a system that allows one parent to dominate the situation more than they should).


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## Pepper (Apr 29, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Not so painful now because I've decided the system is at fault, not my daughter per se, (just a system that allows one parent to dominate the situation more than they should).


I disagree.  I think your daughter is being mean and thoughtless, and I credit my nephews with the same feelings, so I am not picking on her.

For goodness sake, when happy events occur we tell almost everyone, and for your daughter to ignore the grandfather of her children.........unless............no, I don't think you're a pervert or anything horrible...........is a cruel thing to do.  I'm really outraged for you, and for me, whether you want me feeling anything or not.

I'll stop now before I start ranting.


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## grahamg (Apr 29, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I disagree.  I think your daughter is being mean and thoughtless, and I credit my nephews with the same feelings, so I am not picking on her.
> 
> For goodness sake, when happy events occur we tell almost everyone, and for your daughter to ignore the grandfather of her children.........unless............no, I don't think you're a pervert or anything horrible...........is a cruel thing to do.  I'm really outraged for you, and for me, whether you want me feeling anything or not.
> 
> I'll stop now before I start ranting.


She is being hard certainly, but you cant just criticise her without knowing what pressure she was under when stopping seeing me twenty five years ago or so.  

The blame sits largely elsewhere, (though I know my daughter is tougher than I will ever be, and I know too how she clung to contact with me for ten years after my marriage broke up, so those facts cant be changed, no matter how many folks try to tell me I should have done this or that differently, and all would have been well.). 

BTW isn't this thread supposed to be about a total smacking ban being discussed by some in our UK government, whilst at the same another department is anticpating a huge increase in prison sentences for young offenders, (if not prisons, some other kind of detention centres as said above)?


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## Pepper (Apr 29, 2022)

I digressed.  I humbly beg your forgiveness.   
One more thing---adults, like my nephews, are responsible for their own behavior, just like me & you.  You are being too generous, IMO, but yeah, hurts less to blame something else.


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## Packerjohn (Apr 29, 2022)

JonSR77 said:


> You are in a room with Hitler, Stalin and your local politician.  You have a gun with only two bullets.  What do you do?
> 
> Answer:  Shoot the politician twice...


Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it.  We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community.  Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension.  Every watch the debate in the House of Commons?  They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums.  Everyone shouting and no one really listening.  Totally disgusting!

By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia).  Perhaps they could start this again?  However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.


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## Murrmurr (Apr 29, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it.  We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community.  Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension.  Every watch the debate in the House of Commons?  They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums.  Everyone shouting and no one really listening.  Totally disgusting!
> 
> *By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia)*.  Perhaps they could start this again?  However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.


They sent over 130,000 orphans there, too. To let someone else feed them give them a *better life*.


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## David777 (Apr 29, 2022)

The issue is not black and white as advocates against any spanking frame the issue, especially many psychologists and their politically correct mouthpiece organizations.  There are significant numbers of parents that can do so without being emotional.  The issue is there are numbers of parentally ignorant that do and would strike their children when mad from emotion anger.  Thus psychologists are playing another lowest common denominator game of spouting such for the sake of those they cannot reach.  Adults getting married ought be required to take a one day basic parenting class else their state tax rates go up say 10%.

Same thing is the case for them being against adult corporal punishment or public humiliation.  It isn't that such might have an effective place but rather they are afraid if they allow such, there will be those that will be barbaric just as was the case in the past.  At least in open modern technological era Western societies that need not be the case if effective transparent processes are applied.  We could save a lot of trouble including incarceration or fining costs by otherwise instead giving criminals unpleasantness and even pain.  Advocates for poor are now using incarceration costs to allow property crime criminals such little jail time that there is little incentive for criminals to reform.  In fact many stories of thieves immediately stealing same day they are released.

Both human children, adults, all higher Earth creatures, are deterred by pain and punishment.  In fact such is the primary way criminals enforce against their own.  With young children such has a place but what might work like a swat with a 4 year old would not be appropriate for say a 15 year old chronic graffiti vandal.  For them, community service tediously cleaning up such damage in their cities instead of being able to run loose having fun after a couple days watching tv and listening to "don't do that psychologists" with other miscreants in juvenile hall they just laugh at would be far more effective.  Same thing with litterbugs.  Poor advocate..."They will lose their job if they have to take time off for that."  Well pinhead, that is what weekends are for.


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## grahamg (Apr 29, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I digressed.  I humbly beg your forgiveness.
> One more thing---adults, like my nephews, are responsible for their own behavior, just like me & you.  You are being too generous, IMO, but yeah, hurts less to blame something else.


No I'm not hurting, (not now, twenty five years on from being pushed out of my own daughter's life). 
The system is at fault just as I've described too many times to be worth repeating, and the only defence for the system is that folks generally seem to agree with the very aims I believe, when followed too closely, lead to the situation where decent parents can count for nowt.
The "something else" I'm blaming deserves all the blame I'm giving them, (though I acknowledge the ex was the better parent, and the system allowing her to get away with what she did, maybe has to be as it is, or unscrupulous dads, and their lawyers might find it too easy to exploit!).


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## grahamg (Apr 29, 2022)

Packerjohn said:


> Great joke and unfortunately like a lot of great jokes, there is some truth in it.  We used to have politicians who worked for the good of their community.  Some still do but many are just in their for the fat pension.  Every watch the debate in the House of Commons?  They are worse than a bunch of grade 4 hoodlums.  Everyone shouting and no one really listening.  Totally disgusting!
> 
> By the way, the British used to send their convicts to Van Diemens Land (Australia).  Perhaps they could start this again?  However, I don't think the Australian would want the current crops of criminals; especially not politicians.


I watch what goes on in our House of Commons maybe more than most, and overall have a very different opinion of goings on there, and I'll say it again, if you think their job is so easy, "give it a go yourself why don't you",(good question maybe, but be careful though when answering, as we're on dodgy territory here due to probably the most important forum rule we all must/should abide by at all times  !)


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## Trish (Apr 30, 2022)

David Amess - Conservative MP - stabbed at his constituency surgery in 2021 - father of 5 children.  His family issued a statement which included these words:
_So, we ask people to set aside their differences and show kindness and love to all.
This is the only way forward.
Set aside hatred and work towards togetherness.
Whatever one’s race, religious or political beliefs, be tolerant and try to understand.
_​Jo Cox - Labour MP - shot and stabbed outside her constituency in 2016 - mother of 2 children.  Her family set up a foundation which 
campaigns under the banner _"More in Common"_ with the aim of bringing people together.


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## Alligatorob (Apr 30, 2022)

grahamg said:


> considerations in our government for a total smacking ban to be imposed upon parents


I have mixed feelings about this one.  I grew up in the Bible belt (US) south where corporal punishment of children was common and accepted.  I got the belt or paddle many times, both from my parents and at school.  

I remember a Jr high coach who used to make us stand in front of the class, bend over and get wacked.  Then after a few he made us ask, in a loud voice "please sir may I have another".  And we'd get a few more that way.  It was painful, but I never got anything that left a mark, and importantly I don't think it was ever done out of spontaneous anger.  

However I am not sure it did much good, otherwise I would not have gotten it so often.  I remember in one class I got paddled 4 times in an hour.  Don't remember what I was doing, but obviously it wasn't working well.  No marks from that on, none that I could see anyway, but sitting down hurt for a few days.  

In a perverse way getting paddled at school became a kind of badge of honor or something amongst my friends, getting paddled a lot was a sign of strength or defiance or something.  I suspect I may have sought it out for that reason.  The Jr High vice principal kept track of how many "licks" each of us got, a kind of mark of bad conduct I guess.  We talked about the tally all the time, often bragging how high our numbers were.

I do not think it had any ill effect on me or my friends.  I think this kind of thing has been happening for thousands of years.  Its only recently that we have decided its not a good idea.

However, I know condoning it leads to problems in some cases, @win231 is a good example.  And I now know of worse.  So on balance I guess I think it is best to end it.  Something that probably doesn't work, but can sometimes do harm isn't a good thing.


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2022)

So you approve of teachers hitting children @Alligatorob?  A virtual stranger wielding power over your child?  I had an opportunity, years ago, to move to Arizona but didn't take it as schools were allowed to use corporal punishment.  Not on MY child.  Yours, maybe?


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## grahamg (Apr 30, 2022)

Pepper said:


> So you approve of teachers hitting children @Alligatorob?  A virtual stranger wielding power over your child?  I had an opportunity, years ago, to move to Arizona but didn't take it as schools were allowed to use corporal punishment.  Not on MY child.  Yours, maybe?


There was really not too much wrong with the way my very good school dealt with this issue, (and if you don't mind my saying you're over dramatising it!).
Our new headmaster, when I joined the school, and he stopped the school prefects having the right to use a slipper on you, (I guess I had the slipper four or five times at most, and I promise you, no I'll effects!).


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## Pepper (Apr 30, 2022)

I don't mind you saying anything Graham.  Bring it on!


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## grahamg (Apr 30, 2022)

Pepper said:


> I don't mind you saying anything Graham.  Bring it on!


That's all, (maybe you've had different experiences that give you the opinion you hold, and let s face it so very many agree, Scotland in the UK having instituted a ban!).


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## win231 (Apr 30, 2022)

Em in Ohio said:


> I see a difference between smacking a child on the rear and beating a child.  All children are different, even within the same family.  Some never need more than a stern look.  Others may need a different approach.  None of the friends that I grew up with who got an occasional smack on the behind turned out abusive.  My mother was a harping, hateful person who constantly abused my father and me mentally.  I often wished she would just smack me and be done with it.


The idea is not the severity of beating/spanking/smacking - whatever you want to call it.
The idea is using pain as a teaching tool.  That's where the ignorance lies.


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## grahamg (Apr 30, 2022)

win231 said:


> The idea is not the severity of beating/spanking/smacking - whatever you want to call it.
> The idea is using pain as a teaching tool.  That's where the ignorance lies.


Yes and no, because you're ignoring the suggestion made by our forum friend you were responding to, that "psychological pain",(that caused let's say by loving patents and stepparents all over the world to help try to control children they're responsible for), can be much much worse than a simple and quick tap/smack. 

This means a small tap, one administered without causing bruising, as permitted in the majority of the UK to this day, when perhaps a child may be about to put themselves into danger, (when having "a paddy" of some kind!).!


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## Alligatorob (Apr 30, 2022)

Pepper said:


> So you approve of teachers hitting children @Alligatorob?


No, in fact at the end of my post I said "_I think it is best to end it_". 

My point was that based on my experience it did no harm.  However as I also said probably no good either.


win231 said:


> The idea is not the severity of beating/spanking/smacking - whatever you want to call it.
> The idea is using pain as a teaching tool.


Having been on the receiving end many times I think its more about showing control and kind of humiliating the kid rather than the pain.  Paddlings were always quite public.  The pain went away more quickly than the recollection of having been put into that position.

Thinking about it I cannot remember a single girl being punished that way.  Not quite sure what that means or why.  I know the girls were not all perfectly behaved...


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## win231 (Apr 30, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> No, in fact at the end of my post I said "_I think it is best to end it_".
> 
> My point was that based on my experience it did no harm.  However as I also said probably no good either.
> 
> ...


Humiliation or pain - both ignorant ways to teach a child anything.
It is, however a great way to teach kids that it's OK for adults to touch them, & we know where that can lead.
I won't say what I'd do to a teacher who did that to me.
Besides physical abuse, my mother tried to humiliate me into doing what she wanted me to do.
For example, when I was 14 & wanted my hair longer & she didn't like it, she'd tell me _"Get a haircut or people will think you're on dope."_
By then, I was her size & she wouldn't dare hit me, because she knew I'd hit her back (as I did a year previously).
I said,_ "Only a dope like you would think that."_
I sometimes hear people say, _"My parents hit me & it taught me to respect them."_
Uh, no......you're confusing "_respect" _with "_fea_r."


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## horseless carriage (May 1, 2022)

Contrary to popular belief, there isn’t a problem with “kids of today." You see, parents complain about kids behaviour exactly the same way they did many years ago.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates (469–399 B.C.), which shows our ancestors of long ago felt the same way about children:

In addition, many pro-spanking parents also refer to the phrase “spare the rod and spoil the child” as being from the Bible. However, the phrase in those words originated from Samuel Butler’s satirical poem: “Hudibras,” which was published in 1662. His poem, and novel called ‘The Way of All Flesh, was written to expose and condemn violence against children_._ Yet, it has been adopted by some parents as a means to justify corporal punishment and other physical actions against children.

Many parents of today, and even yesterday, lack the parenting skills they once had. One of the big reasons for this is due to our lifestyles being far from ideal, as far as family goes. Once upon a time, it was a village that helped to raise a child, not just one or two parents.
Parents learned about parenting from a young age, by growing up and observing parenting in their close-knit community. Kids had more freedom to explore, climb, run and burn off pent up energy, rather than fight over Playstation controllers. Parents were much less time poor, and were able to be more present emotionally and physically with their children. Community was everything, and there was much less in the way of behavioural problems.

Today, we have a much more detached, disconnected, unsupported and isolated lifestyle. There are behaviours out of control which are _not_ due to a lack of smacking, but due to a myriad of environmental factors. These include diet (an overload of sugar, wheat/grains, preservatives, colours and other additives, which create hyped up and unfocused kids), excessive screen time, parents not knowing how to help their children through emotional storms, choosing to punish them for their feelings instead of talking them through, and parents working crazy hours just to get enough money coming in.

Kids crave regular, quality one on one time with their parents, which is so hard to juggle with modern family life. It’s not an optimal environment for children to flourish. There are going to be repercussions, and punishing the symptom, the communication for help, is going to get us nowhere. Blaming today’s children for this is just folly. Forget the so called fixes, try to understand the root cause.

The above narrative is from an argument: Smacking Is Proven To Be Ineffective – Here’s 11 Reasons Why It's a much longer article but well worth reading.


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## grahamg (May 1, 2022)

win231 said:


> Humiliation or pain - both ignorant ways to teach a child anything.
> It is, however a great way to teach kids that it's OK for adults to touch them, & we know where that can lead.
> I won't say what I'd do to a teacher who did that to me.
> Besides physical abuse, my mother tried to humiliate me into doing what she wanted me to do.
> ...


Of course its OK for adults to "touch" their children, at least in this sense, (though I know its not what you meant), I used to carry my own daughter miles on my shoulders, at her insistence, "carry me" being the cry, or "my legs are tired"!

If you knew my daughter as a child you would have known just how hard it was to get a hug off her, (she just wasn't like that, too independent or something), so carrying her when maybe her legs were not so tired was just one way I could show my love and care for her. Besides, whilst walking along with her on my shoulders she'd be holding a more or less nonstop conversation with me, so she'd be getting " verbal hugs" you tried to tell her how special she was, as much as possible.

In the end what may be good for you and your child may not be good for mine, and in the very minor way smacking is permitted in the UK I wish to see decent parents who are not ever abusing their children, the right to make their own decisions on this, and not have the state, (on behalf if you don't mind my saying, of busy bodies thinking they know best all the time), reach further into what should be our private lives.


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## Alligatorob (May 1, 2022)

Good post @horseless carriage !


horseless carriage said:


> Contrary to popular belief, there isn’t a problem with “kids of today." You see, parents complain about kids behaviour exactly the same way they did many years ago.


Absolutely true!


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## grahamg (May 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> Good post @horseless carriage !
> 
> Absolutely true!


How can you be sure, (or anyone else for that matter?)?


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## Alligatorob (May 1, 2022)

grahamg said:


> How can you be sure, (or anyone else for that matter?)?


There is some science behind it.  

The Psychology Behind Generational Conflict​Older people have groused about younger people for millennia. Now we know why


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## grahamg (May 1, 2022)

Alligatorob said:


> There is some science behind it.
> 
> The Psychology Behind Generational Conflict​Older people have groused about younger people for millennia. Now we know why


Would it be correct to call it "social science"?

Marriages lasted fifty odd years ago, (only 5% ending in divorce, for good or I'll), most children could rely on the care of a " stay at home parent,(/mother), and so on,...., what allogorythym, or formula due you wish to try to use, and gain any certainty at all your comparisons are meaningful.

In my fathers rights campaigning days I came across a "Parenting Satisfactory Index", (the calculations and statistics being used there being way past anything I could understand). 

I do know when I tried to volunteer to take part in a project by Birkbeck College in London into issues surrounding parenting, my application to assist them was turned down, (perhaps they felt me too strident in my views on " The Best Interests of the Child paramount legal principle, and its negative consequences?). Therefore I'll assume any kind of social science can be swayed by whoever is chosen to take part!


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## Trish (May 1, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Would it be correct to call it "social science"?
> 
> *Marriages lasted fifty odd years ago*, (only 5% ending in divorce, for good or I'll), most children could rely on the care of a " stay at home parent,(/mother), and so on,...., what allogorythym, or formula due you wish to try to use, and gain any certainty at all your comparisons are meaningful.
> 
> ...


Very true Graham but, we have no idea how many were happy marriages.  Women were often dependent on their husbands.  In the 1950's my auntie (who was working) tried to buy some furniture on credit, she was told she would need her husband or father to sign the agreement because, as a woman, she was not the head of the house.  My mother worked while we were at school, as did a lot of the mothers although, they were regarded as earning "pin money" so not real jobs.


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## grahamg (May 1, 2022)

Trish said:


> Very true Graham but, we have no idea how many were happy marriages.  Women were often dependent on their husbands.  In the 1950's my auntie (who was working) tried to buy some furniture on credit, she was told she would need her husband or father to sign the agreement because, as a woman, she was not the head of the house.  My mother worked while we were at school, as did a lot of the mothers although, they were regarded as earning "pin money" so not real jobs.


We will have to be careful here, not to upset peoples understandable sensitivities, and of course forum rules.
However, yes were talking of a time when "reasonable chastisement of ones wife was permitted, wives/husbands couldn't be forced to testify against one another and so on, (making my point I hope, how hard it is for any kind of " social science" to be all that reliable I'd have thought).


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## David777 (May 2, 2022)

I've read the usual critical psychology arguments about corporal punishment and they inevitably will point to studies I view as having biased agendas.  The controversy using such arguments and research will never convince significant numbers of people that is reflected in how their advice has been rejected in places.  Much of that points to psychology profession elite's cultural guilt trips about inflicting any pain as though we humans are above such.  Read the news...what a joke.  IMO simplistic politically correct thinking.  

Arguments against physical damage from such practices being cruel as caning are valid, however in this era there are many ways to inflict pain or uncomfort without causing physical damage.  For instance just putting those jailed in somewhat warm facilities with a bit of skunk odors, say a modest 85F for a week will be enough to deter many from returning more than say 6 months in a modern jail.  One needs to understand when I grew up, few homes in summer had air conditioning, much less prisons and jails so in my view no that does not come under "cruel and unusual" regardless of how much the ACLU rants.


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## Maywalk (May 2, 2022)

How about being illtreated when being beaten with a cane for the slightest thing by so called Sisters-of-Mercy as I was when under six years of age. 
If you cried you were incarcerated in a tiny cupboard for as much as six hours at a time. 
So much for religion.  

SO many came forward when my book was published and so much has been found out over the years. I am 92 now but I got through schooling ok albeit an evacuee one after being bombed out twice during the London Blitz. When I was finally re-united with my family my parents never raised their hands to me BUT a note of authority would show itself when, if I had misbehaved, ordering me to get to bed. 

There seem to be more children today with mental related problems in school than when I was a kid and I cant help but think that its all the ruddy violence and such like nowadays due to the massive amount of technology and walking around with headphones or earplugs in listening to the brain bashing music .

Is there someone out there who can help me down off the soapbox I managed to get on.


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## grahamg (May 2, 2022)

Maywalk said:


> How about being illtreated when being beaten with a cane for the slightest thing by so called Sisters-of-Mercy as I was when under six years of age.
> If you cried you were incarcerated in a tiny cupboard for as much as six hours at a time.
> So much for religion.
> 
> ...


I know this sounds trite, (as it is), but "love" is the answer to what is going wrong, as its bound to be for anyone growing up isn't it, "Who does love each child", "Who is able to feel love for the child, despite whatever obstacles may be put in their way by the other parent, or the authorities, if they get involved"?

An institution cannot show love in the same sense, for obvious reasons, though there are a great many wonderful institutions around, charities etc., again in spite of whatever failings they might have, (you mention religious organisations but I'd argue the same applies to them).

Terry Wogan used to talk about the holy brothers or whatever he called them, who taught him at Belvedere college in Dublin, and for all your bad experiences, the description he gave of his school days was warm, and something he looked back on with affection, (albeit he joked about what might happen if you got on the wrong side of his teachers)!


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## fuzzybuddy (May 3, 2022)

How do you differentiate between beating the hell out of a kid, and a light top on the bum? Legally, state where one begins and the other ends, and be able to back that up in court. If you want to protect kids from beatings, by a national law; it has to be a broad law encompassing all corporal punishment. Reserving the right to whack your kid for misbehaving is as gross as it sounds.
British prisons, for centuries, used all manner of harsh, painful, corporal punishments, and Britan had no shortage of criminals.


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## grahamg (May 3, 2022)

fuzzybuddy said:


> How do you differentiate between beating the hell out of a kid, and a light top on the bum? Legally, state where one begins and the other ends, and be able to back that up in court. If you want to protect kids from beatings, by a national law; it has to be a broad law encompassing all corporal punishment. Reserving the right to whack your kid for misbehaving is as gross as it sounds.
> British prisons, for centuries, used all manner of harsh, painful, corporal punishments, and Britan had no shortage of criminals.


You're overstating everything to a degree where argument becomes impossible, but I remember a former prime minister in the UK saying his children were smacked, (so not your average abuser of children as you must think I am!).


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