# Knee Surgery for Seniors can do more Harm than Good



## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

https://www.agingoptions.com/blog/2...eniors-might-actually-do-more-harm-than-good/

I believe this is what went on with my knee and the infection I went thru. The doctors chose to do a "cleanout" arthroscopic job and lord knows what they cleaned out, cartilage that I needed and whatever else. I just know my knee is so worse. THere are many other info links to this subject as well.

Perhaps this work is not what most believe it will do for them.


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## bingo (Jan 4, 2019)

i'm sorry to hear that you have to live with those results....i've known people that also have trouble after several types of popular surgeries


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## Geezerette (Jan 4, 2019)

I had the left knee arthro clean out & it helped for quite a while. But continued to get gradually worse & I got it replaced about 5 yrs later, the right one 2 years before that. My TKRs worked out well,but the total hip fallout in 2015  just about wrecked my life


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## C'est Moi (Jan 4, 2019)

Oh for heaven's sake... ANY type of surgery/medical procedure can possibly have a poor outcome.


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## Warrigal (Jan 4, 2019)

Surgery is the last resort why pain is overwhelming and causing serious lifestyle consequences.
Arthroscopies are now being questioned in medical circles as to whether they are necessary and/or beneficial.

When my knees first began to give me trouble I had physiotherapy to strengthen the thigh muscles. This does nothing for the knee damage but by keeping it more securely in alignment, the pain is better managed. This was in 2000 and after this treatment the knees were not really troublesome until 2015. Since that date wear and tear on my cartilage has progressed and I experienced severe pain in multiple joints. I have now had both knees replaced, both shoulders and one hip. All of them have been successful thanks to good surgeons and post operative rehabilitation pysio.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

Geezerette said:


> I had the left knee arthro clean out & it helped for quite a while. But continued to get gradually worse & I got it replaced about 5 yrs later, the right one 2 years before that. My TKRs worked out well,but the total hip fallout in 2015  just about wrecked my life



Same here with hip replacement in 2010, which caused the knee issue to be what I've been thru...it's all connected and our bodies are NOT supposed to be cut up.

That's why I believe Regenerative Medicine can help many, not all as one member says here, but many...this is Prolotherapy, PRP and Stem Cells....no cutting of the body involved.

I believe these Elective surgeries are barberic, an emergency yes I can see "them" trying to put us back together...just like humpty dumpty.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

C'est Moi said:


> Oh for heaven's sake... ANY type of surgery/medical procedure can possibly have a poor outcome.



Oh the surgery world makes patients think they are going to be so great when they get metal and plastic in their bodies, then more issues begin.   People sign waivers, too bad doctors and surgeons don't sign waivers....we're left with the messes, except one person who claims to be so great with all the parts replaced.   Hard to believe, but could be.  Although I have a cousin on the East Coast here who has 6 replacements and last time I talked to  her, she said she does good.  Again hard to believe with all those artificial parts in one's body.


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## Ruth n Jersey (Jan 4, 2019)

I have bad knees also and I've had many physical therapists tell me to keep on going until I absolutely can't stand it a minute more. That is exactly what I'm doing. Knee surgery is no walk in the park and the outcome unpredictable. Right now my heating pads and Epson Salt soaks keep me going. I'm grateful for that.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

So, Ruth, you use heating pads on knees?


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## Warrigal (Jan 4, 2019)

> we're left with the messes, except one person who claims to be so great with all the parts replaced.   Hard to believe, but could be



Assuming that I am the 'one person' referred to in the above, I absolutely swear that all of my posts on this matter are a true account of my experiences with joint replacements. Why would I lie?


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## Keesha (Jan 4, 2019)

My father had knee surgery but didn’t do any of the physio therapy so it not only didn’t heal properly but caused him to become crippled. When they advise post physio it shouldn’t be taken lightly. 
Good for you in following through on post operation instructions Warrigal. I truly believe that’s 50% of it.


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## Warrigal (Jan 4, 2019)

Keesha, the shoulders didn't need much in the way of physio but for the hip and knees I went to a rehab hospital for 2 weeks as an inpatient 
and the program involved daily gym and hydro sessions where the specialised physios led us through a gentle but progressive regime aimed at improving flexibility and  muscle strength. The muscles become weak quite quickly when all you are doing most of the time is sitting in a recliner chair. That was what I had come down to before each of my surgeries. After the 2 weeks as an inpatient there was a further 2 mornings per week for 4 weeks as an outpatient. 

You are right that post operation instructions are very important. I'm not good at sticking to these regimes and for me a guided program proved very beneficial.


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## Ruth n Jersey (Jan 4, 2019)

jaminhealth said:


> So, Ruth, you use heating pads on knees?


 yes I do. I sandwich my knee between two pads. 20 minutes on,20 minutes off. Some people ice knees but heat seems to work for me. I think it is because my problem is more about the surrounding area than the joint itself. I dislocated my knee a few years back and tore the meniscus. It never really healed correctly . I had physical therapy for it several times but it doesn't help much.


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## Butterfly (Jan 4, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Assuming that I am the 'one person' referred to in the above, I absolutely swear that all of my posts on this matter are a true account of my experiences with joint replacements. Why would I lie?



I'm another person who has had wonderful results with my hip replacements, and my sister is another,  so I guess there are at least three of us.

Actually, I think the truth is that a huge number of people have great results, but we don't hear much from them because they are just getting on with their lives.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Assuming that I am the 'one person' referred to in the above, I absolutely swear that all of my posts on this matter are a true account of my experiences with joint replacements. Why would I lie?



It's just hard for me to believe anyone with so many replacements has no issues.  I've done one and live in a Hail and my right thigh is so damaged and Heavy with the "part" and adhesions and lord knows what else has gone on in there.  I'm not about to go and have them cut me open again to try to find out and cause more stress to the area.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

Butterfly said:


> I'm another person who has had wonderful results with my hip replacements, and my sister is another,  so I guess there are at least three of us.
> 
> Actually, I think the truth is that a huge number of people have great results, but we don't hear much from them because they are just getting on with their lives.



We're all getting on with our lives, only some are more damaged from these jobs.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 4, 2019)

Ruth n Jersey said:


> yes I do. I sandwich my knee between two pads. 20 minutes on,20 minutes off. Some people ice knees but heat seems to work for me. I think it is because my problem is more about the surrounding area than the joint itself. I dislocated my knee a few years back and tore the meniscus. It never really healed correctly . I had physical therapy for it several times but it doesn't help much.



Thanks I've been doing this too as the inside of my right knee is the worst, like a lot of soft tissue damage from being pushed to walk in the rehabs with a staph infection going on, long ugly story.

Plus ice is for more acute injuries vs chronic I believe.


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## Warrigal (Jan 5, 2019)

Jaminhealth, I am sorry that you have had an adverse result from your operation. I am aware that not everybody is not well served by surgery, which is why it should be the last resort.

My husband has had bad experiences with some of his operations, including one knee replacement that had to be redone two weeks after the surgery. Apparently the first appliance was not big enough to support his weight and it kept dislocating. The final result is satisfactory now but at the time it was hellish. He did not have the same surgeon that did my hip and knee operations. He has also had a back operation where the surgeon damaged a nerve and it has left him with a dropped foot and he has to wear a brace.

IMO his bad outcomes have two causes. The first is that he is very heavy and the second is that his doctors for some reason failed to take this into account when preparing for the procedures. Sometimes it is just bad luck, and I have been lucky five times to have had excellent doctors, including my general practitioner who guided me in their selection.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 5, 2019)

Warrigal said:


> Jaminhealth, I am sorry that you have had an adverse result from your operation. I am aware that not everybody is not well served by surgery, which is why it should be the last resort.
> 
> My husband has had bad experiences with some of his operations, including one knee replacement that had to be redone two weeks after the surgery. Apparently the first appliance was not big enough to support his weight and it kept dislocating. The final result is satisfactory now but at the time it was hellish. He did not have the same surgeon that did my hip and knee operations. He has also had a back operation where the surgeon damaged a nerve and it has left him with a dropped foot and he has to wear a brace.
> 
> IMO his bad outcomes have two causes. The first is that he is very heavy and the second is that his doctors for some reason failed to take this into account when preparing for the procedures. Sometimes it is just bad luck, and I have been lucky five times to have had excellent doctors, including my general practitioner who guided me in their selection.



I was thinking about your situation with 5 replacements and no problems/issues.   What entered my mind is that you've had so many done that your body is more balanced out with the appliances.  You  must have had pretty bad issues to have all those replacements.   I'm sure if you have my issues  you would be getting a replacement.  Maybe it's done more too in social medicine countries.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 5, 2019)

Ruth n Jersey said:


> yes I do. I sandwich my knee between two pads. 20 minutes on,20 minutes off. Some people ice knees but heat seems to work for me. I think it is because my problem is more about the surrounding area than the joint itself. I dislocated my knee a few years back and tore the meniscus. It never really healed correctly . I had physical therapy for it several times but it doesn't help much.



I started doing this since discussed here and I can feel an easing of pain in the side of knee -- from an article on ice or heat.




Arthritis: Heat wins for arthritis and injuries that linger more than six weeks. “Patients with more chronic osteoarthritis usually feel better with heat,” says rheumatologist Linda Mileti, MD. But for acute gout flares, she favors ice.
My issue is chronic.  Thanks for mentioning this.


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## Warrigal (Jan 6, 2019)

jaminhealth said:


> I was thinking about your situation with 5 replacements and no problems/issues.   What entered my mind is that you've had so many done that your body is more balanced out with the appliances.  You  must have had pretty bad issues to have all those replacements.   I'm sure if you have my issues  you would be getting a replacement.  Maybe it's done more too in social medicine countries.



I have private medical insurance that is partly subsidised by the national government to make is more affordable. This insurance paid for the private hospital and the rehabilitation hospital. There were out of pocket gap payments for the surgeons and anaesthetists after rebates from my health fund and Medicare, our universal health scheme.

Since I am on a part aged care pension, I am bulk billed for a lot of services such as X rays, scans, pathology and GP services. This means that all I do is show my pension card and there is nothing to pay. I just have to sign a form to allow the doctor to be paid through Medicare. Health care over here is a mixture of free public services and subsidised private care. It does seem like the orthopedic surgeons are doing well, with no shortage of patients.


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## 911 (Jan 6, 2019)

I had my left knee scoped back in the ‘80’s. Then, in 2012, I had my knee treated with an ingredient called Synvisc. I got one injection per week for three consecutive weeks. (This stuff is made from the combs on roosters.) Then, in 2017, I had it scoped again. So, now I am looking at a knee replacement if things should go down hill again.

The surgeon told me that each time the knee is scoped, (arthroscope), vital cartilage is removed. From that I took that if I had my knee scoped twice, I had a lot of cartilage removed. The surgeon told me that my knee is now bone on bone.


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## ClassicRockr (Jan 6, 2019)

Perhaps the body wasn't meant to be cut, BUT, for many, to alleviate pain, surgery is the only way to go. When I had hip replacement in 2005, it was the very best thing I could have done. No more limp and I was back using our boat and going to the Range with my wife. My rodeo/roping days had ended five years earlier, basically due to lack of money and selling my horse. 

I know how you feel about surgeries, Jaminhealth, but for my of the young and old/older, it's definitely the only way to go.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 6, 2019)

911 said:


> I had my left knee scoped back in the ‘80’s. Then, in 2012, I had my knee treated with an ingredient called Synvisc. I got one injection per week for three consecutive weeks. (This stuff is made from the combs on roosters.) Then, in 2017, I had it scoped again. So, now I am looking at a knee replacement if things should go down hill again.
> 
> The surgeon told me that each time the knee is scoped, (arthroscope), vital cartilage is removed. From that I took that if I had my knee scoped twice, I had a lot of cartilage removed. The surgeon told me that my knee is now bone on bone.



That's correct everytime it's scoped, we lose cartilage....so best to try to live with what is.   I had a scoping a year or so ago after an infection was finally found and I was on abx  IV's but they still did the scope and I swear my knee is way worse.   makes me absolutely sick.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 6, 2019)

911 said:


> I had my left knee scoped back in the ‘80’s. Then, in 2012, I had my knee treated with an ingredient called Synvisc. I got one injection per week for three consecutive weeks. (This stuff is made from the combs on roosters.) Then, in 2017, I had it scoped again. So, now I am looking at a knee replacement if things should go down hill again.
> 
> The surgeon told me that each time the knee is scoped, (arthroscope), vital cartilage is removed. From that I took that if I had my knee scoped twice, I had a lot of cartilage removed. The surgeon told me that my knee is now bone on bone.



That's correct everytime it's scoped, we lose cartilage....so best to try to live with what is.   I had a scoping a year or so ago after an infection was finally found and I was on abx  IV's but they still did the scope and I swear my knee is way worse.   makes me absolutely sick.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 6, 2019)

ClassicRockr said:


> Perhaps the body wasn't meant to be cut, BUT, for many, to alleviate pain, surgery is the only way to go. When I had hip replacement in 2005, it was the very best thing I could have done. No more limp and I was back using our boat and going to the Range with my wife. My rodeo/roping days had ended five years earlier, basically due to lack of money and selling my horse.
> 
> I know how you feel about surgeries, Jaminhealth, but for my of the young and old/older, it's definitely the only way to go.



That's right I feel it should be VERY LAST RESORT, an emergency or the like, and when I finally did my THR I went in with positive thoughts that I would come out much improved, didn't happen for me.  I live with 4 major complications.  I'm 80 so maybe I'll make it to my end with what is.  Still want to check out more Prolo for the knee.   Could use it on whole body but funds prevent this NOW.  Maybe if insurance ever helps this type of  healing, I'll do more, like back.


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## rgp (Jan 6, 2019)

Straying from [knees] I know, yet along the same line.

Have any of you ever had, or considered, laser-spine surgery for chronic back pain. I watch their TV ads....they make it sound so inviting & simple.

Of course that's the ad-man's job I know. But.....looking for pain relief tends to make one a-bit [desperate] ?


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## jaminhealth (Jan 7, 2019)

rgp said:


> Straying from [knees] I know, yet along the same line.
> 
> Have any of you ever had, or considered, laser-spine surgery for chronic back pain. I watch their TV ads....they make it sound so inviting & simple.
> 
> Of course that's the ad-man's job I know. But.....looking for pain relief tends to make one a-bit [desperate] ?



Do you have a link on this laser surgery?  I have a lot of pain and stiffness BUT desperate -- not for back surgery.  I'm going to start taking cayenne capsules with each meal now to help with pain -- I've taken cayenne over the years for blood pressure and also use it for cooking but found enough info on cayenne and back pain, so going with it for a while.  Price is right.


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## rgp (Jan 7, 2019)

jaminhealth said:


> Do you have a link on this laser surgery?  I have a lot of pain and stiffness BUT desperate -- not for back surgery.  I'm going to start taking cayenne capsules with each meal now to help with pain -- I've taken cayenne over the years for blood pressure and also use it for cooking but found enough info on cayenne and back pain, so going with it for a while.  Price is right.




  I didn't mean desperate for surgery..I meant desperate for pain relief. However that desperation could lead to surgery......When nothing else has worked. 

  If you have been taking cayenne for BP, & cooking with it?...are you sure [more] has any chance of helping with pain?

As for the link?...No, it is just something I have seen on TV.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 7, 2019)

Yes, I add it to my soups but I'm not taking a LOT as in the capsules on a regular basis.

Just got a tip from a friend on OA pain and stiffness and he mentions Devils Claw as it's similar to the drug Vioxx that was taken off the market years ago.  From Arthritis Foundation on Devils Claw

https://www.arthritis.org/living-wi...tural/supplements-herbs/guide/devils-claw.php

I'm going to  jump on Devils Claw.  I've never taken it, but took Cats Claw years ago and thought they were the same, but they are not.

I sure would NOT do a back surgery.  And my pain issues are pretty nasty.


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## fmdog44 (Jan 8, 2019)

My dad had a hip replaced in the late 60s with zero side affects. It neve bothered him.


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## jaminhealth (Jan 8, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> My dad had a hip replaced in the late 60s with zero side affects. It neve bothered him.



Wish I could say that.


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## Buckeye (Jan 9, 2019)

FYI, my lovely Significant Other had a total knee replacement this morning.  The hospital here in the west valley (Phoenix area) does about 1,100 of these a year.  It is robotically assisted surgery, and 98% of the patients do just fine. I'm headed back to the hospital now since she should be out or post-op recovery in an hour or so.  

Have a great day!


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## jaminhealth (Jan 9, 2019)

Now the real work begins, major rehab, getting that knee to bend and get straight out.

Knee replacements are probably #1 replacements done in the U.S.  Good luck with that rehab and new knee.


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## Buckeye (Jan 21, 2019)

As an update, my lovely SO had the staples removed from the incisions today.  The incision was at least 12" long, so lots of staples.  She is having home based physical therapy - started last week, then this week and next, at a minimum.


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## REmist (Jan 22, 2019)

I appreciate the comments posted on knee replacements. It seems some turn out well while others are pain for no result.
However all don`t mean very much unless the patients age is shown.  Go for it if you are a young 50 to 70 yrs old but be careful if your older. My docs say if you are older it takes longer to recover and you may never.


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## Warrigal (Jan 22, 2019)

REmist, you are right about age being a factor. I am about to turn 76 and I have had a series of joint replacements in the past 4 years because I want to get them out of the way while I am still healing well, and mentally and physically able to benefit from physiotherapy. All have been successful in eliminating pain and restoring mobility. I have been very lucky.

This year I am having my cataracts attended to but with this procedure age is not so critical. Still, who wants to go blind before doing something about it?


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## jaminhealth (Jan 22, 2019)

REmist said:


> I appreciate the comments posted on knee replacements. It seems some turn out well while others are pain for no result.
> However all don`t mean very much unless the patients age is shown.  Go for it if you are a young 50 to 70 yrs old but be careful if your older. My docs say if you are older it takes longer to recover and you may never.



It's interesting that when these replacements first started it was the OLD people and their damaged joints...now people in their 40's + are doing them.  So could be the  younger ones are having better results.  Most of the people I know who did them are 60+ and just talking to a friend who has had horrible issues for well over a year with his replacement has gone thru nerve ablation, burning the nerves...I'd never do that.   He's so sick of his outcome.  

I'm 80 and my knee is pretty damaged and so fear a worse outcome if I did one.  

I'm still looking at more Prolotherapy for the knee.  

Cataracts, I don't have that issue as I take eye supplements to keep eyes in good helath.  

I work to AVOID all surgeries...ALLL of them.   That's why I love supplements, we can do so much to avoid surgeries with the supplement world and all they offer us.


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## Buckeye (Feb 24, 2019)

One last follow up - my 73 y/o Significant other is now about 7 weeks past surgery.  Started out patient rehab, which will continue for 6 weeks or so, a couple of times a week.  The first few weeks were really, really painful for her because she also has fibro mialgia and RLS,  But she is past that now, and is doing very well.  She does say she will not have the other knee done under any circumstances because of the pain, but I think that belief may be softened as her knee and her mobility improve.

She has started taking a daily dose of CBD oil to help with the pain.  No way of knowing if it helps or not.


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