# George Floyd was a victim



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

I am really shocked at some of the things I'm reading here about George Floyd's murder. 

Yes, he was a criminal.  Yes, he passed counterfeit money, and there is some evidence he KNEW it was counterfeit, that the ink on it hadn't even thoroughly dried.  Yes, he did time in prison.  Yes, he threatened a pregnant woman with a gun. 

He was far from perfect, he lived a troubled life, there were things he did and acts he committed which were indefensible and which I abhor.

He was also, at the end of his life,  A VICTIM. 

His criminal past is being used by some to mitigate or even excuse the actions of the police officer who murdered him, and the other three officers who contributed. That he used counterfeit money, that he was high, or drunk, or both is offered as a reason why he was detained and subsequently "subdued" and that his death was simply an unfortunate consequence.

Some on facebook and in the media are calling Mr. Floyd a hero or a martyr.  I don't agree that he was.  But because some are labeling him that, it gives others the opportunity to point out that he wasn't either, he was "just" a criminal, as though that somehow excuses his murder.

Label him whatever you want, but while you're struggling to figure out how feel about this wretched incident, how to feel about Mr. Floyd, remember that he was a VICTIM, powerless in the moments before his death to change that course in spite of his please and entreaties.  He was a man crying out for his mother, pleading with his murderer that he couldn't breathe, held down with a knee on his neck for almost 9 minutes, the last two minutes of which he was completely unresponsive, so that when the paramedics arrived they couldn't detect a pulse. 

HE WAS A VICTIM. Lethal, deadly force was used against him. He suffered physical harm to the point of death as a result of the criminal act perpetrated against him.  He deserves justice.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I am really shocked at some of the things I'm reading here about George Floyd's murder.
> 
> Yes, he was a criminal.  Yes, he passed counterfeit money, and there is some evidence he KNEW it was counterfeit, that the ink on it hadn't even thoroughly dried.  Yes, he did time in prison.  Yes, he threatened a pregnant woman with a gun.
> 
> ...


Those types are the saints of society, the ones who do, and can do no wrong, the ones that lead perfect little lives in their own minds, the ones who are infallible, the ones who are first to cry like wet-bottomed babies when it's their loved ones at the forefront.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Those types are the saints of society, the ones who do, and can do no wrong, the ones that lead perfect little lives in their own minds, the ones who are infallible, the ones who are first to cry like wet-bottomed babies when it's their loved ones at the forefront.


I have no idea what this means.  Is this comment directed at Mr. Floyd?


----------



## Ceege (Jun 4, 2020)

George Floyd's murder is just another example of what goes on in our country when power takes over reason.
What did this guy do to deserve this beating?:
_People stuck in traffic are witnessing NYPD beat up folks on their way home_ 



 via @YouTube 

_How The World Sees The US Just Now
_ 
https://www.wonkette.com/how-the-world-sees-the-us-just-now


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I have no idea what this means.  Is this comment directed at Mr. Floyd?


I specifically highlighted the entry of your post in which my comment applies.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I am really shocked at some of the things I'm reading here about George Floyd's murder.
> 
> Yes, he was a criminal.  Yes, he passed counterfeit money, and there is some evidence he KNEW it was counterfeit, that the ink on it hadn't even thoroughly dried.  Yes, he did time in prison.  Yes, he threatened a pregnant woman with a gun.
> 
> ...





  Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

Ceege said:


> George Floyd's murder is just another example of what goes on in our country when power takes over reason.
> What did this guy do to deserve this beating?:
> _People stuck in traffic are witnessing NYPD beat up folks on their way home_
> 
> ...


Sickening!


----------



## StarSong (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I have no idea what this means.  Is this comment directed at Mr. Floyd?


I didn't get it either.  Thought it was just me...


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

StarSong said:


> I didn't get it either.  Thought it was just me...


Do you get it now?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg, just to clarify, you are saying that even though he had been guilty of (non-violent) criminal behavior, there is no excuse for his murder at the hands of the police. And you are protesting the moral posturing of those who are trying to defend this disgraceful murderer in a police uniform.  Is that it?  If so, I agree with you.

Rgp, what if he had been jaywalking?  Would that have justified murder also?


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result .



So that's how it works?  A person encounters the police... and death is the expected result?  Don't ignore the fact that he was already pinned down by several cops.  Don't forget that one of the cops had his knee on George Floyd's neck for several minutes - a totally unnecessary move when you have several cops holding him down.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> I specifically highlighted the entry of your post in which my comment applies.



Yes I know.  This is what you highlighted:
*His criminal past is being used by some to mitigate or even excuse the actions of the police officer who murdered him, and the other three officers who contributed. That he used counterfeit money, that he was high, or drunk, or both is offered as a reason why he was detained and subsequently "subdued" and that his death was simply an unfortunate consequence.*

And then you said:
_Those types are the saints of society, the ones who do, and can do no wrong, the ones that lead perfect little lives in their own minds, the ones who are infallible, the ones who are first to cry like wet-bottomed babies when it's their loved ones at the forefront._

I still don't get what you're saying.  Who are "those types?"  Mr. Floyd or the police?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Aunt Marg, just to clarify, you are saying that even though he had been guilty of (non-violent) criminal behavior, there is no excuse for his murder at the hands of the police. And you are protesting the moral posturing of those who are trying to defend this disgraceful murderer in a police uniform.  Is that it?  If so, I agree with you.
> 
> Rgp, what if he had been jaywalking?  Would that have justified murder also?


Exactly, Sunny, and I thank you for seeing that.

With all of the evidence out, as well as the rulings, it's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that there are still individuals out there who continue to downplay the actions of the police, in addition to, look to pin all on George Floyd.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.




This is disgusting.   There is ZERO JUSTIFICATION for his murder.  He was cuffed, put in a police vehicle, pulled back OUT of the vehicle, to then be thrown to the ground, still in cuffs, and further "subdued" for almost 9 minutes, the last two of which he was completely unresponsive.  HOW THE EVERLOVING @#$% CAN YOU JUSTIFY THIS????


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Yes I know.  This is what you highlighted:
> *His criminal past is being used by some to mitigate or even excuse the actions of the police officer who murdered him, and the other three officers who contributed. That he used counterfeit money, that he was high, or drunk, or both is offered as a reason why he was detained and subsequently "subdued" and that his death was simply an unfortunate consequence.*
> 
> And then you said:
> ...


There's nothing difficult about what I am saying or said, "those types", related to, *those* who are using George Floyd's criminal past to mitigate or even excuse the actions of the police officer who murdered him, and the other three officers who contributed. That he used counterfeit money, that he was high, or drunk, or both is offered as a reason why he was detained and subsequently "subdued" and that his death was simply an unfortunate consequence.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.


 this is cold hard facts, if he hadn't have been a criminal , he would be alive today, that's very likely true ....however his criminal activity didn't warrant a horrible death at the hand of murderers in uniform


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.


You're entry is worthy of no response.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 4, 2020)

Back in 1951, a brilliant book was published:  The True Believer, by Eric Hoffer.  It describes the mentality that leads dangerous political and military movements.  It's just as pertinent now as it was then, perhaps even more.  Here's part of a recent review:



> The book's subtitle, "Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements," tells it all:  How and why mass movements get started, and why so many people choose to follow only those leaders best able to capitalize on their discontents.  Unfortunately, many of the politically naive individuals attracted to simple explanations and/or extreme positions can abandon reason.  As "true believers," they can even become dangerous to the body politic.



The "True Believers"  will try to justify anything, even police brutality, when it serves their cause. They see the world with blinders on.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> this is cold hard facts, if he hadn't have been a criminal , he would be alive today, that's very likely true ....however his criminal activity didn't warrant a horrible death at the hand of murderers in uniform




 But the fact is ....... his criminal activity_* is*_ what brought about his death.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> But the fact is ....... his criminal activity_* is*_ what brought about his death.


 yes not disputing that RGP..with you there, but my point is did he have to be killed in that tragic way, did he have to be killed at all ? ...they may as well have thrown him to the dogs...


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> This is disgusting.   There is ZERO JUSTIFICATION for his murder.  He was cuffed, put in a police vehicle, pulled back OUT of the vehicle, to then be thrown to the ground, still in cuffs, and further "subdued" for almost 9 minutes, the last two of which he was completely unresponsive.  HOW THE EVERLOVING @#$% CAN YOU JUSTIFY THIS????




 I feel no need to justify anything ..... I merely stated, had he not been involved in a criminal activity , he likely would still be alive.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

You know I'm *so tired* of reading about how (it's always Black people) the victim had done a crime or was a bad person in some way after being murdered by Killer Kops. Has anyone noticed that White mass murders (with the exception of a couple) have never been shot and killed. They have been brought into custody without incident? They get to live and stand trial but not unarmed Black people, who hadn't even committed a violent crime or a crime at all !! Some were not even aware of police presence while going about their daily business, yet they ended up dead. The list is so long, I think I'll do a separate post about it.

Like you Ronni, I'm appalled at some of the replies I've seen on this forum surrounding these killings and haven't even read them all yet. They smack of racism and frankly extreme ignorance about the Black experience and the heinous history of this country's treatment of Black people. It also makes me think those we speak of have rocks where their hearts should be. The advisory about the United States
https://www.insider.com/traveling-in-the-us-warnings-2019-7


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> I feel no need to justify anything ..... I merely stated, had he not been involved in a criminal activity , he likely would still be alive.


A moot point.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> yes not disputing that RGP..with you there, but my point is did he have to be killed in that tragic way, did he have to be killed at all ? ...they may as well have thrown him to the dogs...




 No, he didn't have to die, but he did. He didn't have to be acting in a criminal manner either, but he was. Which is what lead to his death.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> No, he didn't have to die, but he did. He didn't have to be acting in a criminal manner either, but he was. Which is what lead to his death.


 turn off the switch, the needle has stuck...


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> A moot point.



 Moot point ? I think not, since it is _*the point*_ that started it all.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> turn off the switch, the needle has stuck...




 Well, you and some others keep talking about his innocence / victim status. So, I'll keep shouting his criminal  behavior.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Moot point ? I think not, since it is _*the point*_ that started it all.


You'll find two posts on the battery, a positive and a negative, remove the negative connector from the terminal. That will shut the power down.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well, you and some others keep talking about his innocence / victim status. So, I'll keep shouting his criminal  behavior.



He was killed RIGHT AFTER being detained and posed no immediate threat.  So yes, he is a victim.  No amount of shouting about his criminal behaviour justified the brutal handling by the four policemen.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> You'll find two posts on the battery, a positive and a negative, remove the negative connector from the terminal. That will shut the power down.



 Same can be said about the positive connector.

 Now, please tell me exactly how, this has to do with the conversation in hand ?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> He was killed RIGHT AFTER being detained and posed no immediate threat.  So yes, he is a victim.  No amount of shouting about his criminal behaviour justified the brutal handling by the four policemen.




 You weren't there, neither was I ...... It was IMO, the use of an approved procedure that went horribly wrong....nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> this is cold hard facts, if he hadn't have been a criminal , he would be alive today, that's very likely true ....however his criminal activity didn't warrant a horrible death at the hand of murderers in uniform


What world do you live in? Do you know how many Blacks who were not engaged in criminal activity AT ALL have been killed by police? I'll be posting about that later with the list of names.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> But the fact is ....... his criminal activity_* is*_ what brought about his death.


Wrong! The criminal activity of law enforcement caused his death . That’s why they were ALL charged in his murder.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> What world do you live in? Do you know how many Blacks who were not engaged in criminal activity AT ALL have been killed by police? I'll be posting about that later with the list of names.


what are you talking about?...I live in a very real world..I only agreed that if he hadn't been a criminal he very LIKELY wouldn't be dead..  nowhere did I say he deserved to die, in fact I said the  very opposite.. Tell me how many _white_ people who have died in Police custody have _you_ protested about..don't start with me lady !


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Wrong! The criminal activity of law enforcement caused his death . That’s why they were ALL charged in his murder.





 Wrong, right back at'cha ........ His criminal activity is what started it all !


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> You weren't there, neither was I ...... It was IMO, the use of an approved procedure that went horribly wrong....nothing more, nothing less.



A procedure that was totally unnecessary, given the circumstances that has been documented by several sources.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> You weren't there, neither was I ...... It was IMO, the use of an approved procedure that went horribly wrong....nothing more, nothing less.


The use of an approved procedure that wasn’t applied correctly which the entire world could see. If it were used correctly, he would still be here. That’s why murder charges were made by the professionals (which we aren’t)


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Wrong, right back at'cha ........ His criminal activity is what started it all !


That’s what they have courts for and that’s why the officers were charged or did you miss that part somehow.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> That’s
> 
> That’s what they have courts for and that’s why the officers were charged or did you miss that part somehow.





 That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> You weren't there, neither was I ...... It was IMO, the use of an approved procedure that went horribly wrong....nothing more, nothing less.


So "horribly wrong" is the new acceptable, is it?

"Horribly wrong" justifies all actions (or inactions) now, does it?


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> what are you talking about?...I live in a very real world..I only agreed that if he hadn't been a criminal he very LIKELY wouldn't be dead..  nowehere did I say he deserved to die, in fact I said the  very opposite.. Tell me how many _white_ people who have died in Police custody have _you_ protested about..don't start with me lady !


I understand why you said that but my point is that not only criminals  get killed by cops. My reply *was not* intended to insinuate that you feel he deserved to die Holly, believe me. I haven't seen about many Whites who have died in police custody but I did see where a naked (White) man who obviously was not armed was running across the street in line of site of two cops and one said shoot him. I was horrified because he was obviously mentally ill and didn't deserve that. As I stated in another reply....I can't dictate who protests, who doesn't and when to do it. In the case of the naked man...he lived in another state and I didn't see anything about protests for him.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?


Are you for real??


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 4, 2020)

I agree. If he hadn't been conducting criminal activity he'd likely still be alive today. How many law abiding citizens do you see being taken down and killed by police?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> A procedure that was totally unnecessary, given the circumstances that has been documented by several sources.




 An approved procedure that decided upon by the officer at the time.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?


Okay wise guy. What about people who did everything the cop said, such as in the case of traffic stops? There have been several incidences where people did exactly what the cop asked but were killed anyway. Did you miss *those* parts?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> So "horribly wrong" is the new acceptable, is it?
> 
> "Horribly wrong" justifies all actions (or inactions) now, does it?




 I never said any of the above. I said [if you would read] and not interject .....it was an approved procedure that went horribly wrong IMO .......


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> An approved procedure that decided upon by the officer at the time.


A procedure used UNECESSARILY when he was already held down by several cops.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said any of the above. I said [if you would read] and not interject .....it was an approved procedure that went horribly wrong IMO .......


Please continue, and tell me why did it go horribly wrong?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Okay wise guy. What about people who did everything the cop said, such as in the case of traffic stops? There have been several incidences where people did exactly what the cop asked but were killed anyway. Did you miss *those* parts?




 Who are these people ? can you list the cases ? I am not going to waste my time discussing fantasy scenarios .


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> A procedure used UNECESSARILY when he was already held down by several cops.




 You don't get to make that decision from your Monday morning arm chair.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> You don't get to make that decision from your Monday morning arm chair.


And you get to condone that decision from yours?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> You don't get to make that decision from your Monday morning arm chair.


Decision? ROFLMAO! The decision has already been made. Where have you been?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?


He didn’t resist arrest. There was far more than one video of him being arrested and not one showed aggressiveness on HIS part. The only aggression showed was from law enforcement. You know, the people who serve and protect which again, is why they ( all four of them, have been charged and rightly so).


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> And you get to condone that decision from yours?


Apparently so.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said any of the above. I said [if you would read] and not interject .....it was an approved procedure that went horribly wrong IMO .......


If it was approved proceedure they followed he wouldn’t be dead, unless it allows police officers the right to kill citizens. ( which we all know it doesn’t )


----------



## Knight (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> But the fact is ....... his criminal activity_* is*_ what brought about his death.


  Floyd didn't live long enough to be tried by the justice system  for criminal activity.  Innocent until proven guilty is still the presumption.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 4, 2020)

> How many law abiding citizens do you see being taken down and killed by police?



Apparantly plenty of them, Marci, particularly if they are black.  Have you read a newspaper in the last few years?


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> But the fact is ....... his criminal activity_* is*_ what brought about his death.


NO NO NO.  

What brought about his death is a police officer kneeling on his neck and cutting off his air supply for almost 9 minutes while three other officers of the law watched.   

The mandate of law enforcement is to PROTECT AND SERVE.   Derek Chauvin was neither protecting nor serving the public.   He was brutalizing Mr. Floyd.  It is NOT in Chauvin's  job description to act as jury and executioner.  We have a justice system that DOES NOT ALLOW for summary execution by police. 

We have a justice system and process for a reason, and it’s NOT so that cops get to decide who they’re gonna kill today based on a person’s prior record!  Period, end of discussion. ALL other arguments are null and void.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> this is cold hard facts, if he hadn't have been a criminal , he would be alive today, that's very likely true ....however his criminal activity didn't warrant a horrible death at the hand of murderers in uniform


Aren't you supposed to get a trial to determine criminality or innocence? And at that trial previous earlier crimes or misdemeanours are irrelevant until the verdict for the current charge(s) are deliberated? Only when a guilty verdict is established is the sentence delivered taking into account criminal history.

May I point out that Justine Ruszczyk, an Australian woman who had actually phoned the Minneapolis police to report a suspected crime, was shot by the same police in her dressing gown and PJs when she approached the squad car. She was no criminal but she died any way. 

Summary execution by law enforcement officers has no place in an advanced democracy.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

Just in case there is ANY misunderstanding, I am NOT demonizing all cops.  They have a sometimes impossible job, made even more difficult in times like these were are currently living in and experiencing. 

Do I think some cops are power-hungry and corrupt?  Yes, I do, because I understand human nature, and so I know that in ANY profession, in any group of people, there will be a small percentage who are bad apples, who are corrupt, who are USING their job or the protections that their profession provides to be unethical, immoral, lacking in remorse, or outright criminal.

There'll always be that element, in any profession.  Law enforcement is no exception.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> Aren't you supposed to get a trial to determine criminality or innocence? And at that trial previous earlier crimes or misdemeanours are irrelevant until the verdict for the current charge(s) are deliberated? Only when a guilty verdict is established is the sentence delivered taking into account criminal history.
> 
> May I point out that Justine Ruszczyk, an Australian woman who had actually phoned the Minneapolis police to report a suspected crime, was shot by the same police in her dressing gown and PJs when she approached the squad car. She was no criminal but she died any way.
> 
> *Summary execution by law enforcement officers has no place in an advanced democracy.*


but I didn't  say it did...I clearly said he was murdered IMO  , however,  he was a career criminal so the fact remains if he hadn't been he would far _more_ likely to be alive... than if he hadn't been a criminal...


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.




The "criminal activity" he was "involved" in which caused the encounter with the police was the alleged passing of a counterfeit bill.  Did he know it was counterfeit?  How would the average person know if they had a counterfeit bill?  Does the average person even think about whether a bill in their pocket is counterfeit?  I certainly don't, and I'm not sure I'd even recognize counterfeit.

I seriously doubt that if it had been I who gave the clerk an alleged counterfeit bill that I'd been thrown down in the street and killed -- but then I'm a little ol' white lady with grey hair, and that's the point: he was treated very differently because he was a black man.  Had he been a white man in business dress, I doubt he would have been treated as Mr. Floyd was, and that's the big problem.


----------



## Knight (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> NO NO NO.
> 
> What brought about his death is a police officer kneeling on his neck and cutting off his air supply for almost 9 minutes while three other officers of the law watched.
> 
> ...


Slight correction.  Two other officers were standing one was on his torso. That weight on his torso would IMO help to cause inability to breathe properly . Between loss of blood circulation to the brain & pressure on his torso the ALLEGED criminal was as described a Victim


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 4, 2020)

> but I didn't  say it did...I clearly said he was murdered IMO  , however,  he was a career criminal so the fact remains if he hadn't been he would far _more_ likely to be alive... that if he hadn't been a criminal...



Given the undeniable statistics it could also be said that if he was a white man he would also be far more likely to be alive, even if he was also a career criminal. There are many elements to this case but in the end a man is dead. He no longer has a voice with which to defend himself.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

Knight said:


> Slight correction.  Two other officers were standing one was on his torso. That weight on his torso would IMO help to cause inability to breathe properly . Between loss of blood circulation to the brain & pressure on his torso the ALLEGED criminal was as described a Victim



Thank you.  I stand corrected.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Picture tells 1,000 words. One man standing. Three men sitting on the murdered victim.


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> No, he didn't have to die, but he did. He didn't have to be acting in a criminal manner either, but he was. Which is what lead to his death.


There is no crime any police officer commits that you wouldn't justify.


----------



## Knight (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Thank you.  I stand corrected.


Me to. Per Keesha's pic.  One kneeling on his neck & chest, one on his lower torso one on his legs. That man didn't stand a China man's chance in hell of moving let alone pose a threat.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Who are these people ? can you list the cases ? I am not going to waste my time discussing fantasy scenarios .


Ahhhh...so you ARE that uninformed. I will be making a dedicated post about it as I replied earlier. Until then, you keep living in *your* fantasy world.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

> No, he didn't have to die, but he did. He didn't have to be acting in a criminal manner either, but he was. Which is what lead to his death.



RGP and others who have responded in a similar manner, to the tune of IF he hadn't been a criminal, IF wasn't committing a crime, If he hadn't been bad in the past etc, you are all  BLAMING THE VICTIM.  It's the VICTIMS's fault, because......

VICTIM BLAMING marginalizes the victim and minimizes the criminal act. It causes the victim, and NOT the perpetrator, to be held accountable for what happened to them.  

Victim-blaming originates from ignorance, meanness, or a smug sense of superiority.  It is a bias that makes it seem like the victims of a crime, accident, or other misfortune should have been able to predict and prevent whatever problem might have befallen them.

Blaming the victim suggests that people should have simply known or expected such things to happen given their past or current behavior.

Victim blaming seeks to deflect, by various means, the responsibility of the act from the perpetrator, and directly onto the victim.   It is a cowardly, irresponsible response and says far more about the person doing the blaming than it does the victim.


----------



## Sassycakes (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> He was killed RIGHT AFTER being detained and posed no immediate threat.  So yes, he is a victim.  No amount of shouting about his criminal behaviour justified the brutal handling by the four policemen.



*Nate007.I agree with you 100%. He was subdued and unable to escape. What the Police officers did was uncalled for. Even if he had committed a murder he was not in  a position to escape. I have always had a great deal of respect for Police officers, but not the ones that killed this poor man. I wonder if the people that condone what the officers did, would they condone it if the person that died was a member of their family. I don't think so..*


----------



## StarSong (Jun 4, 2020)

Knight said:


> Me to. Per Keesha's pic.  One kneeling on his neck & chest, one on his lower torso one on his legs. That man *didn't stand a China man's chance in hell o*f moving let alone pose a threat.



Say what? Please think before you speak/write.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

The kindest thing I can say about the folks who blame the victim is that a lot of victim blaming comes from a place of fear.  Fear that the same might happen to them.  Fear that they could be next.  Fear that they may become a victim too.

Holding the victim instead of the perpetrator responsible for their misfortune can be a way to avoid admitting that something just as unthinkable could happen to them too.  But it shouldn't/couldn't happen to them, because THEY are doing everything right!  

Psychologists believe that our tendency to blame the victim may originate in the idea that the world is basically a good, just place, and that we ourselves aren't vulnerable to the bad things we see in the news because the world is basically fair, and in a fair world, if we do right, then we can stave off the bad.  That's where the saying like  “What goes around comes around,” "you reap what you sow" etc.  

So we psychologically separate ourselves from the victim, and speculate, or insist, that they did something to invite the tragedy.  They blame the victim, thus reassuring themselves that they won't be next.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Yep! Just because someone is being brutally punished, doesn’t mean they deserve it.


StarSong said:


> Say what? Please think before you speak/write.


Yeah.  Lets keep the racist jokes out of it.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> And you get to condone that decision from yours?




  Yes, I approve of the methods & procedures used by police , as taught too them in their training, until it proves to need reconsideration .... as it appears to here. They are the ones we hire [through our vote] to protect us.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> He didn’t resist arrest. There was far more than one video of him being arrested and not one showed aggressiveness on HIS part. The only aggression showed was from law enforcement. You know, the people who serve and protect which again, is why they ( all four of them, have been charged and rightly so).




 No offence to your being honest, but I'd have to see the videos.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Keesha said:


> If it was approved proceedure they followed he wouldn’t be dead, unless it allows police officers the right to kill citizens. ( which we all know it doesn’t )




 C'on Keesha ..... the pages from the training manual have been posted here .... and it is clearly in there.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Knight said:


> Floyd didn't live long enough to be tried by the justice system  for criminal activity.  Innocent until proven guilty is still the presumption.




 I never said that he was guilty of a crime .... I said he involved himself in a criminal activity .... as noted by the person he passed the bills too. That's when the police are called.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> NO NO NO.
> 
> What brought about his death is a police officer kneeling on his neck and cutting off his air supply for almost 9 minutes while three other officers of the law watched.
> 
> ...




 Had he not been suspected of being involved  in a criminal activity ......... the police would never have been called.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> There is no crime any police officer commits that you wouldn't justify.  Typical nonsense from those with family in law enforcement.




 So now you think you can read my mind ?

 And I have told you before, I have no family in law enforcement , never did. Again, I have told you before, I have no family.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 4, 2020)

> RGP and others who have responded in a similar manner, to the tune of IF he hadn't been a criminal, IF wasn't committing a crime, If he hadn't been bad in the past etc, you are all  BLAMING THE VICTIM.  It's the VICTIMS's fault, because......
> 
> VICTIM BLAMING marginalizes the victim and minimizes the criminal act. It causes the victim, and NOT the perpetrator, to be held accountable for what happened to them.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree, Ronni.  Once we go down the slippery slope of blaming the victim, where does it stop?  What if the guy was guilty of jaywalking?  What if he took a bite of a candy bar he had in his pocket, while in the subway?  (Yes, that's against the law in D.C.  They arrested a little girl for eating while on the Metro.)  What if he/she answered the police in a sassy way, and the cop decided that this was disrespectful and threatening?  And so on.

Does a person have to be as pure as the driven snow in order to be protected by our Constitution?  If they ever did anything wrong, that's it, let's blame them for being murdered by a homicidal cop?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I absolutely agree, Ronni.  Once we go down the slippery slope of blaming the victim, where does it stop?  What if the guy was guilty of jaywalking?  What if he took a bite of a candy bar he had in his pocket, while in the subway?  (Yes, that's against the law in D.C.  They arrested a little girl for eating while on the Metro.)  What if he/she answered the police in a sassy way, and the cop decided that this was disrespectful and threatening?  And so on.
> 
> Does a person have to be as pure as the driven snow in order to be protected by our Constitution?  If they ever did anything wrong, that's it, let's blame them for being murdered by a homicidal cop?




 Homicidal cop ? Really ? you know what is on that man's mind? 24/7. You just cannot conceive that it might have been an arrest procedure that went bad ? Really bad .... do you just have too see the "monster" in folks that do their best to protect you & I.

 As for "victim" blaming? ......... for sure, I blame the "victim" anytime he is also the suspected criminal in the case.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 4, 2020)

I think new evidence released today clearly shows this was a hit. I think the 4 officers involved were into counterfeiting or money laundering and Floyd was working with them as a runner and something went wrong so he was set up and then killed. Look at the videos by the Park officer body cam. There was a lot of discussion with Floyd after he was handcuffed and he was moved from place to place and finally behind the police car where he was slowly killed. I suspect in time the charge with be 1st-degree murder.


----------



## StarSong (Jun 4, 2020)

MsFox said:


> I think new evidence released today clearly shows this was a hit. I think the 4 officers involved were into counterfeiting or money laundering and Floyd was working with them as a runner and something went wrong so he was set up and then killed. Look at the videos by the Park officer body cam. There was a lot of discussion with Floyd after he was handcuffed and he was moved from place to place and finally behind the police car where he was slowly killed. I suspect in time the charge with be 1st-degree murder.


Seriously?  Please cite your sources.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Homicidal cop ? Really ? you know what is on that man's mind? 24/7. You just cannot conceive that it might have been an arrest procedure that went bad ? Really bad .... *do you just have too see the "monster" in folks that do their best to protect you & I*.
> 
> As for "victim" blaming? ......... for sure, I blame the "victim" anytime he is also the suspected criminal in the case.


IMO, YES, and with "folks" like that, society doesn't need their so called protection or their services.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

MsFox said:


> I think new evidence released today clearly shows this was a hit. I think the 4 officers involved were into counterfeiting or money laundering and Floyd was working with them as a runner and something went wrong so he was set up and then killed. Look at the videos by the Park officer body cam. There was a lot of discussion with Floyd after he was handcuffed and he was moved from place to place and finally behind the police car where he was slowly killed. I suspect in time the charge with be 1st-degree murder.




 Well, if they indeed prove that ? Then they are all criminals , and I do hope they are prosecuted as such.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> IMO, YES, and with "folks" like that, society doesn't need their so called protection or their services.




 Read the post #83 by Ms Fox above ..... perhaps we need to peel the onion back just a little bit more ?


----------



## MsFox (Jun 4, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Seriously?  Please cite your sources.


Go on YouTube and watch the videos from the Park City officer's body cam where they moved Floyd around and were talking to him in what appears a calm manner. This wasn't a regular arrest for passing counterfeit money. Very strange behavior and a bit too friendly, even Floyd's voice was calm saying he couldn't breathe. I don't think he had any idea they were going to kill him or he wouldn't have been so cooperative.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Yes, I approve of the methods & procedures used by police , as taught too them in their training, until it proves to need reconsideration .... as it appears to here. They are the ones we hire [through our vote] to protect us.



You're focusing too much on whether a procedure is approved or not, and ignoring the context of this particular situation.  By your logic, if a person is caught stealing a store item, and said person is then restrained by several cops and THEN lethal methods are being used for no good reason, then you're all fine by it.  As long as it's an approved method.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

From JB in SC post #111 in the rioting & looting thread ................

   "
From the Washington Post,

995 were killed by police in 2018

403 were white, 210 were black, 148 were Hispanic, 38 were classified as other, and 199 were classified as unknown.

Out of that 995, 47 were unarmed — 23 were white, 17 were black, 5 were Hispanic, and 2 were unknown.

About 10,000,000 people are arrested each year, amazing there are not more killed.

What has always been disconcerting to any person is the amount of civilian on civilian homicides in some of these cities.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> You're focusing too much on whether a procedure is approved or not, and ignoring the context of this particular situation.  By your logic, if a person is caught stealing a store item, and said person is then restrained by several cops and THEN lethal methods are being used for no good reason, then you're all fine by it.  As long as it's an approved method.




 Please do not put words in my mouth ..... All I am saying about the procedure is ...... if it is approved & taught in training. Then it is acceptable in use, until it is proven no longer acceptable. Which appears to be the case here.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Please do not put words in my mouth ..... All I am saying about the procedure is ...... if it is approved & taught in training. Then it is acceptable in use, until it is proven no longer acceptable. Which appears to be the case here.


It's hardly putting words in your mouth.  I'm just following your logic, where an approved method is condoned, no matter the context.


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> So now you think you can read my mind ?
> 
> And I have told you before, I have no family in law enforcement , never did. Again, I have told you before, I have no family.


It's not difficult; it's very easy reading.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> C'on Keesha ..... the pages from the training manual have been posted here .... and it is clearly in there.


In the manual it states that IF the suspect is  resisting arrest then any of these holds can be applied. The choke hold and neck restraints are saved as deadly restraints meant only for passive aggressive to the most aggressive.

Choke hold is for the most aggressive suspects who are violently resisting arrest.

Neck Restraint is for the passive aggressive and is done by compressing both sides of the neck WITHOUT APPLYING DIRECT PRESSURE to the TRACHEA!

This restraint is used to control a conscious subject  but NOT RENDER THEM UNCONSCIOUS by applying light to moderate pressure.

It gives clear instructions on when to use them and how to use them which was completely ignored.

The subject didn’t resist arrest in the least and consistently showed compliance and respect right to his very last dying breathe while he said for the 15th time, “I can’t breathe officer.”

After any of these neck holds are used the officer using such force needs to carefully monitor the subject.

Light to moderate pressure at the sides of his neck NOT KNEELING on his neck! If the subject keeps repeating that they can’t breathe, then it’s REALLY CLEAR that it wasn’t ‘light to moderate’ pressure.

If this technique must be used then the subject needs to be monitored.
Did anyone see or hear any monitoring of the police officer?
Did anyone witness any human concern whatsoever about this black man’s very life?

NO!!! There was ZERO concern.
This man was NOT following procedure. OVER  EIGHT MINUTES passed by and the ONLY look on this police officers face was one of sheer arrogant pride like one of this trophy hunters who just killed their prey.

Like I mentioned in another post, if anyone sees justifiable reason why this man was murdered in cold blood by those who serve and protect, then they have their own personal  AXE to GRIND.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 4, 2020)

Win, LOL! 

Keesha, well put. According to everything I've read and seen about this, the man was NOT resisting arrest.  So how in heaven's name could this be "acceptable" by any civilized jurisdiction?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Here’s the manual. Post number 150

https://www.seniorforums.com/thread...the-neck-is-allowed.49609/page-6#post-1371755


----------



## MsFox (Jun 4, 2020)

Watch the Park City officer body cam videos and you can see clearly this wasn't a brutal arrest. A lot of time passed from when he was arrested and in handcuffs until he was killed. It all seems a bit too calm and convenient for me, but that is just my opinion. Why was he not on the ground until he got behind the car and why didn't this video taker start at the beginning of the arrest? I think a lot more evidence will come out in time, but some may require witness protection before testifying. Yes, this case has so many layers I expect it will last a long time.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 4, 2020)

[/QUOTE]


MsFox said:


> Watch the Park City officer body cam videos and you can see clearly this wasn't a brutal arrest. A lot of time passed from when he was arrested and in handcuffs until he was killed. It all seems a bit too calm and convenient for me, but that is just my opinion. Why was he not on the ground until he got behind the car and why didn't this video taker start at the beginning of the arrest? I think a lot more evidence will come out in time, but some may require witness protection before testifying. Yes, this case has so many layers I expect it will last a long time.




[/QUOTE]
I think a lot of this speculation is based on the fact that Floyd and the officer charged with his murder worked at the same nightclub.  No evidence yet that they knew each other.  Much will come out at trial. 

The question now is whether state District Attorney Keith Ellison -- a race-baiting rabble-rouser if ever one lived -- will seek conviction or deliberately blow the case in hopes of getting a "not guilty" verdict and more rioting.  Ellison, of course, was accused of abusing his life partner.  He's a Muslim convert and a Farrakhan devotee, photographed in 2017 happily clutching a copy of The Antifa Handbook. 

Sounds like just the man to handle the case.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 4, 2020)

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/george-floyd-protests-06-03-20/h_ec297654a1c1cfb7963c066a3df43273

"At one point, while Floyd was on the ground, Thao "obtained a hobble restraint from the squad car to restrain Mr. Floyd," the complaint said.

The restraint is a piece of webbing or belt designed to go around a person's legs to limit movement.

"But the officers decided not to use it and maintained their positions," the complaint said. "


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

I read a police  Chief said that that particular hold used on George Floyd is a specific move in which  all officers are told to only use as a last resort and never for more than 2 minutes due to  the very real danger of causing death.

Also..I don't know if this has been addressed in these many posts on several threads.. but since when did potentially passing a fake  $10 dollar note become  a matter for 4 police officers?  

look at this...


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> I read a police  Chief said that that particular hold used on George Floyd is a specific move in which  all officers are told to only use as a last resort and never for more than 2 minutes due to  the very real danger of causing death.
> 
> Also..I don't know if this has been addressed in these many posts on several threads.. but since when did potentially passing a fake  $10 dollar note become  a matter for 4 police officers?
> 
> look at this...


It's obvious that these officers decided to kill Floyd beforehand.


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> It's obvious that these officers decided to kill Floyd beforehand.


 there's definitely something rotten in the force  in Minneapolis. let's hope we find out before too long just what it is...


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 4, 2020)

Minneapolis is one of the most "liberal" cities in the US.  It has a radical left-wing mayor and its US representative is Ilhan Omar. It's been run by Democrats since about 1958.  

Minnesota has two liberal Democratic senators, a radical leftist District Attorney, and a liberal Democratic governor.  

Just sayin'.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Watch the Park City officer body cam videos and you can see clearly this wasn't a brutal arrest. A lot of time passed from when he was arrested and in handcuffs until he was killed. It all seems a bit too calm and convenient for me, but that is just my opinion.


Not a brutal arrest? We all watched 3 police officers sit on a man to hold him down , one who kneeled on his throat for over 8 minutes causing lack of vital oxygen and blood to the brain and according to both private and government autopsies, is what caused his death. One sat on his abdomen so his diaphragm couldn’t function properly while the other sat on his feet . The officer who kneeled on his throat has been charged with man slaughter and 2nd degree murder and the rest got arrested for assisting in this brutal death.

The man DIED while being arrested from police officers NOT following proper procedure but your focus isn’t on THESE criminals. Your focus is on the murdered victim.

Yes MURDERED according the the medical professionals and the law professionals.

How can you possibly say this clearly wasn’t a brutal arrest?

For myself, this IS by far the most brutal arrest I’ve ever witnessed. The man died.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/03/us/george-floyd-officers-charges/index.html


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 4, 2020)

MsFox said:


> I think new evidence released today clearly shows this was a hit. I think the 4 officers involved were into counterfeiting or money laundering and Floyd was working with them as a runner and something went wrong so he was set up and then killed. Look at the videos by the Park officer body cam. There was a lot of discussion with Floyd after he was handcuffed and he was moved from place to place and finally behind the police car where he was slowly killed. I suspect in time the charge with be 1st-degree murder.


It does seem that the dead man and the man who killed him were known to each other. The nature of their connection may come to light during the trial.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> It does seem that the dead man and the man who killed him were known to each other. The nature of their connection may come to light during the trial.


Apparently the two worked together as security guards at a nightclub last year. 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.bre...as-police-officer-who-killed-him-1002964.html


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> RGP and others who have responded in a similar manner, to the tune of IF he hadn't been a criminal, IF wasn't committing a crime, If he hadn't been bad in the past etc, you are all  BLAMING THE VICTIM.  It's the VICTIMS's fault, because......
> 
> VICTIM BLAMING marginalizes the victim and minimizes the criminal act. It causes the victim, and NOT the perpetrator, to be held accountable for what happened to them.
> 
> ...


BRAVO!!! Very well stated Ronni. In a way I liken this to blaming the victim of rape for being raped. Oh she was out partying and drinking, or she had on that short dress, or she has an active ****** history, etc. Only this is much worse...an unarmed man lost his life and he is on a long list of many.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> BRAVO!!! Very well stated Ronni. In a way I liken this to blaming the victim of rape for being raped. Oh she was out partying and drinking, or she had on that short dress, or she has an active ****** history, etc. Only this is much worse...an unarmed man lost his life and he is on a long list of many.


Yes it IS like blaming rape victims that it’s their fault they were raped and unfortunately that actually happens.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

I do not think anyone can compare what happened to this man to rape.  I would have more to say on this, but the conversation would have nothing to do with this thread.  I will point out that the names of victims of rape are no longer released.   Nor is their past history allowed in court.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> It's obvious that these officers decided to kill Floyd beforehand.


I don’t know if they did or didn’t.  I am curious as to why Mr. Floyd, after leaving the store, went and sat in a car, seemingly waiting for the police to arrive and arrest him.  Why didn’t he leave?  Anyone have an answer?


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

We can pick this apart / argue back & forth in a circular argument till we are blue in the face. What it comes down to is simply, we [some of you here & I ] see it differently ..... and we will likely never agree on it.

I feel it was a righteous arrest, in which an approved procedure / method just went wrong, and as a result Floyd died. Again, had he not been involved in a criminal activity, Floyd might well be alive today.


----------



## rgp (Jun 4, 2020)

win231 said:


> It's obvious that these officers decided to kill Floyd beforehand.




 OH, so now you can read their minds ?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t know if they did or didn’t.  I am curious as to why Mr. Floyd, after leaving the store, went and sat in a car, seemingly waiting for the police to arrive and arrest him.  Why didn’t he leave?  Anyone have an answer?





OneEyedDiva said:


> BRAVO!!! Very well stated Ronni. In a way I liken this to blaming the victim of rape for being raped. Oh she was out partying and drinking, or she had on that short dress, or she has an active ****** history, etc. Only this is much worse...an unarmed man lost his life and he is on a long list of many.


The reference was directly related to blaming the victim for a crime committed. Period


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 4, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> I don’t know if they did or didn’t.  I am curious as to why Mr. Floyd, after leaving the store, went and sat in a car, seemingly waiting for the police to arrive and arrest him.  Why didn’t he leave?  Anyone have an answer?


Maybe he was texting or reading texts or checking Facebook. People do it all the time before leaving a store.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> Maybe he was texting or reading texts or checking Facebook. People do it all the time before leaving a store.


You are saying after attempting a crime people stop to text or check Facebook?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> We can pick this apart / argue back & forth in a circular argument till we are blue in the face. What it comes down to is simply, we [some of you here & I ] see it differently ..... and we will likely never agree on it.
> 
> I feel it was a righteous arrest, in which an approved procedure / method just went wrong, and as a result Floyd died. Again, had he not been involved in a criminal activity, Floyd might well be alive today.


It wasn’t an approved procedure.   The manual for the approved procedure which was shown wasn’t followed and resulted in his death which is why murder charges were made


----------



## Knight (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said that he was guilty of a crime .... I said he involved himself in a criminal activity .... as noted by the person he passed the bills too. That's when the police are called.



The bills still had to be verified as fake so there was no proof of criminal activity.   Putting the bills into evidence, arresting him on suspicion makes sense. The bills may have been fake but what proof other than the store managers word that he was the one that passed them? Finger print verification  on the bills wasn't used at the scene was it? 
While handcuffed with his hands behind his back, with 4 officers there and him handcuffed what threat did he pose to those 4?

It's to bad those watching and recording on their phones didn't think to call 911 and report what was going on.


----------



## Ruthanne (Jun 4, 2020)

Ronni said:


> I am really shocked at some of the things I'm reading here about George Floyd's murder.
> 
> Yes, he was a criminal.  Yes, he passed counterfeit money, and there is some evidence he KNEW it was counterfeit, that the ink on it hadn't even thoroughly dried.  Yes, he did time in prison.  Yes, he threatened a pregnant woman with a gun.
> 
> ...


I have always thought he was a VICTIM!  Never heard about his past but his past has nothing to do with what happened to him at the hands of the police.  It is just utterly wrong and inexcusable what those police did.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

Knight said:


> The bills still had to be verified as fake so there was no proof of criminal activity.   Putting the bills into evidence, arresting him on suspicion makes sense. The bills may have been fake but what proof other than the store managers word that he was the one that passed them? Finger print verification  on the bills wasn't used at the scene was it?
> While handcuffed with his hands behind his back, with 4 officers there and him handcuffed what threat did he pose to those 4?
> 
> It's to bad those watching and recording on their phones didn't think to call 911 and report what was going on.


Yes, I made that point also on another thread, if people were so worried why didn’t they make some calls.  I also agree, that I think he was arrested on suspicion of having fake bills which is a federal crime.  But why did he sit and wait in the car?  Just curious if someone has an answer.


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 4, 2020)

vvvvvvv


----------



## peppermint (Jun 4, 2020)

When this happened, I couldn't understand that the officer kept this poor man choked whole....I couldn't let go of the channel when the police
man was holding the man down....I was praying for him to let him go, take him in the police car, with the other 3 policemen....
That's all he had to do....The poor man died in the cops choke hole....I was yelling at the TV....I don't care if the guy was robbing something or
if he said something to the cop....It was an awful moment for this man to die like that....
I don't go into crowds to make a mockery of this whole incident...Yes the police man should be in Prison....I don't know much about the other's..
Even though they should.ve told that (a hole) to put the man in the police car...But they didn't do anything..
I feel for the family.....And I prayed today when I was watching the momorial….   
I'm sorry, I don't like crowds....Please just keep the family in your prayers, if you pray,   
I don't like what is going on now and it's not going to go away for a while...   
I hope America heals!!!!!


----------



## Keesha (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well, if they indeed prove that ? Then they are all criminals , and I do hope they are prosecuted as such.


How about they get arrested in the same manner as George Floyd with law enforcement kneeling on their necks until they die ? Who needs a court procedure… 
(not serious) ...just wonder how others would view it


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

rgp said:


> OH, so now you can read their minds ?


Also very easy reading - Kindergarten level.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 4, 2020)

MsFox said:


> I think new evidence released today clearly shows this was a hit. I think the 4 officers involved were into counterfeiting or money laundering and Floyd was working with them as a runner and something went wrong so he was set up and then killed. Look at the videos by the Park officer body cam. There was a lot of discussion with Floyd after he was handcuffed and he was moved from place to place and finally behind the police car where he was slowly killed. I suspect in time the charge with be 1st-degree murder.



What new evidence?  What are your reputable sources?  

Time to get my tinfoil hat out again.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

peppermint said:


> When this happened, I couldn't understand that the officer kept this poor man choked whole....I couldn't let go of the channel when the police
> man was holding the man down....I was praying for him to let him go, take him in the police car, with the other 3 policemen....
> That's all he had to do....The poor man died in the cops choke hole....I was yelling at the TV....I don't care if the guy was robbing something or
> if he said something to the cop....It was an awful moment for this man to die like that....
> ...


America will heal.

There are 328 plus million people in the USA. In comparison, how many protestors are there? 1000 people in Utah rioted, once. How many states don’t have protestors or rioters? How many people just don’t care about these issues? How many people are bored with the subject? How many people think is just a TV event, like the virus, not really real?

How many people don’t care about the bigger states and their on going issues?  How many people just go about their lives agreeing or disagreeing with what’s happening but realizing it’s just another dead man.  A man they didn’t know.  A man they don’t care about.

I would bet millions of people.

How many people on this forum are/were willing to let the virus kill millions?  Several?  How many protestors will die due to the virus?  How many people will get sick?  There may be a cure for the virus, there will never be a cure for racism.

Things will change over time for better or worst.  Then things will change, again, over time for better or worst.  All this blah blah blah will have been a way to pass the time, another page in a history book that the next generation will not study.  Life goes on.

But the USA will recover.  Life will go on.  Even this shall pass.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 4, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> What new evidence?  What are your reputable sources?
> 
> Time to get my tinfoil hat out again.


You have a tinfoil hat?  WOW.  Does it tune in the CIA?


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 4, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Win, LOL!
> 
> Keesha, well put. According to everything I've read and seen about this, the man was NOT resisting arrest.  So how in heaven's name could this be "acceptable" by any civilized jurisdiction?



I don't even see how he could significantly resist if  he is face down on the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back.

Not to mention that the pressure continued to be applied for about two minutes after he was evidently at least unconscious, if not dead.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 4, 2020)

[/QUOTE]
I think a lot of this speculation is based on the fact that Floyd and the officer charged with his murder worked at the same nightclub.  No evidence yet that they knew each other.  Much will come out at trial.

The question now is whether state District Attorney Keith Ellison -- a race-baiting rabble-rouser if ever one lived -- will seek conviction or deliberately blow the case in hopes of getting a "not guilty" verdict and more rioting.  Ellison, of course, was accused of abusing his life partner.  He's a Muslim convert and a Farrakhan devotee, photographed in 2017 happily clutching a copy of The Antifa Handbook.

Sounds like just the man to handle the case.
[/QUOTE]

I believe the case has been kicked up to the state attorney general and is no longer being handled by the DA's office.


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

Something to think about:
Here are some arrests of murderers and mass murderers:  (_no comparison to a counterfeit cash suspect who was innocent until proven guilty.)_
Charles Manson & several of his followers
Brenda Spencer (Killed 2 elementary school students)
Gary Gilmore (killed 2 during robbery)
Ted Bundy (killed at least 8 women)
Mark Chapman (killed John Lennon)
Lynette Fromme (attempted to kill President Ford)
Sirhan Sirhan  (killed Robert Kennedy & wounded several others)
John Hinckley Jr. (shot President Reagan & wounded several others)
Lee Harvey Oswald (killed President Kennedy and also killed a police officer when confronted)
Richard Ramirez (killed at least 12 people in their homes while they were sleeping)

They were all arrested without incident.  No beating, no choking.   What do they have in common?
None of them were black.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 4, 2020)

deleted


----------



## Robert59 (Jun 4, 2020)

Found this about George Floyd on another news forum, 

Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs, the Daily Mail reported.

“What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this,” police union president Bob Kroll told his members in a letter posted Monday on Twitter. 
It would seem that the man who the Press refers to as a "gentle giant" and a virtual pillar of the community, it's also time for those who are only willing to focus on the cop's history of people filing complaints about him, it's only fair and equal to show the rest of the story.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 4, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Found this about George Floyd on another news forum,
> 
> Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs, the Daily Mail reported.
> 
> ...


OMG Did you not read this thread from the beginning?  

This thread BEGAN with comments on his violent past, that he was far from perfect, that he’d done prison time, threatened a pregnant woman with a gun.

SO WHAT????? He was not being executed for his past crimes. He was being arrested for allegedly attempting to pass a counterfeit $20 bill, during which time a police officer knelt on his neck for almost 9 minutes, 2 minutes PAST the point where he became completely unresponsive. He was deprived of oxygen resulting in his death.

He was murdered.


----------



## Don M. (Jun 4, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs, the Daily Mail reported.
> 
> “What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd.



I seriously doubt that Floyd was the "angel" that some of the media is trying to portray him as being.   More likely...he was a "half a$$ed" criminal that happened to cross paths with a psycho cop.  Unfortunately, for the nation, we have no shortage of people who react without knowing the facts, and are using this event as an excuse to vent their own personal shortcomings, as they loot and riot.  

As I grow older, the more convinced I become that most people create their own problems.


----------



## win231 (Jun 4, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Found this about George Floyd on another news forum,
> 
> Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs, the Daily Mail reported.
> 
> ...


Rapper Nipsey Hussle also had a criminal history & was a gang member.  Does that mean we shouldn't punish his murderer?


----------



## terry123 (Jun 5, 2020)

As far as I have read so far there has not been any proven facts about any past criminal acts.  I prefer to wait until the facts come out as to past behavior.  The officer holding him down DID have 17 complaints against him.  Those standing by are now being charged also.  They could have taken the officer off him but chose not to do anything.  Just my opinion so no vile judgements, please.  My brother served as an officer and homicide detective on the Miami task force for over 25 years and is very upset about the way things were handled.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 5, 2020)

Robert59 said:


> Found this about George Floyd on another news forum,
> 
> Floyd had landed five years behind bars in 2009 for an assault and robbery two years earlier, and before that, had been convicted of charges ranging from theft with a firearm to drugs, the Daily Mail reported.
> 
> ...



Whatever his past crimes were or were not are not and whether or not he was a pillar of the community -- neither are relevant in any way to the way he died and the fact that he was killed by cops on the street.

Cops don't get to make judgments about who lives or dies or how to treat people in the streets based on prior bad acts.

The officer's bad history shows a pattern and brings into question why he was still on the force, but even if he had been a perfect angel before this does not in any way alter the fact that as a result of his actions Mr. Floyd died.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 5, 2020)

I think a lot of this speculation is based on the fact that Floyd and the officer charged with his murder worked at the same nightclub.  No evidence yet that they knew each other.  Much will come out at trial.

The question now is whether state District Attorney Keith Ellison -- a race-baiting rabble-rouser if ever one lived -- will seek conviction or deliberately blow the case in hopes of getting a "not guilty" verdict and more rioting.  Ellison, of course, was accused of abusing his life partner.  He's a Muslim convert and a Farrakhan devotee, photographed in 2017 happily clutching a copy of The Antifa Handbook.

Sounds like just the man to handle the case.
[/QUOTE]

I believe the case has been kicked up to the state attorney general and is no longer being handled by the DA's office.
[/QUOTE]
You are right, but Ellison is the state AG, not the DA.  My mistake.  He is still the same person.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Something to think about:
> Here are some arrests of murderers and mass murderers:  (_no comparison to a counterfeit cash suspect who was innocent until proven guilty.)_
> Charles Manson & several of his followers
> Brenda Spencer (Killed 2 elementary school students)
> ...





Look up

John Allen Muhammad
Lee Boyd Malvo
Dwight Lamon Jones
Willie Cory Godbolt
Colin Ferguson
Nathan Dunlap

All mass shooters/serial killers, all arrested, all black.  

And please keep in mind that black people, while constituting only about 12 percent of the population, commit more than half of all violent crimes.  This leads to a disproportionate number of encounters with the police and a disproportionate number of adverse events. 

The George Floyd episode was tragic and the officers should be prosecuted, but a little context is helpful.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Something to think about:
> Here are some arrests of murderers and mass murderers:  (_no comparison to a counterfeit cash suspect who was innocent until proven guilty.)_
> Charles Manson & several of his followers
> Brenda Spencer (Killed 2 elementary school students)
> ...


Agreed!


----------



## Ronni (Jun 5, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> The George Floyd episode was tragic and the officers should be prosecuted, but a little context is helpful.



NO.  Just...no.

In most cases I would heartily agree with you.  In THIS case, I vehemently OPPOSE that statement.  Context has no bearing WHATEVER.  It is inconsequential to what happened, and doesn't, or at least shouldn't, influence one's viewpoint about this.

I have yet to find even ONE statement that conflicts with the facts of the case, facts which so far everyone agrees with.

Mr. Floyd was black
He was detained by police, and his hands were cuffed behind his back.
He was not actively resisting arrest
He was on the ground, on his stomach, with his hands still handcuffed behind him
Mr. Chauvin knelt on Mr. Floyd's neck for 8 minutes 46 seconds
Mr. Floyd was heard stating repeatedly that he couldn't breathe.
Mr. Chauvin did not remove his knee even after Mr. Floyd lost consciousness.
Mr. Chauvin continued to kneel on George Floyd's neck for a full minute after paramedics arrived at the scene.
Mr. Floyd died while Mr. Chauvin was kneeling on his neck. 

These are uncontested statements.  Video footage, eyewitness statements, surveillance tapes confirm all of these points.

Neither Mr. Floyd's criminal record nor the numerous complaints against Officer Chauvin change the undisputed facts.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ronni said:


> NO.  Just...no.
> 
> In most cases I would heartily agree with you.  In THIS case, I vehemently OPPOSE that statement.  Context has no bearing WHATEVER.  It is inconsequential to what happened, and doesn't, or at least shouldn't, influence one's viewpoint about this.
> 
> ...


What do you think would happen if Mr. Floyd was white?  The facts would still be the same.  His family would have same responses as Mr. Floyd‘s family.  They would want the same officers charged.  They would sue for wrongful death as well.

But there would be no protestors, no riots, and months later there would be a notice in a newspaper, a small blip on the TV, that the officer went to jail, the family got their money, and life goes on.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

America has turned a corner, and will never be the same. What I am hearing from all the millions who are grieving and protesting is, "Enough is enough!"

For those who keep yapping on with that nonsense about "If he had not been engaged in criminal activity in the first place, blah blah blah..."  I wonder if they think that a murder victim has to be as pure as the driven snow in order to be a murder victim?  If they ever did anything wrong, well then, they deserved what happened to them.  And the police officer was an agent of moral righteousness.


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> You are saying after attempting a crime people stop to text or check Facebook?


No it hasn't been proven that the money was counterfeit. A guilty man would have fled, an innocent man has no need to run. So yes he could have been checking social media.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> No it hasn't been proven that the money was counterfeit. A guilty man would have fled, an innocent man has no need to run. So yes he could have been checking social media.


,


----------



## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

Here's a story that ran in today's paper, which I think is relevant. Yet another murder of a black man by police. This one was in Louisville. A black owner owner of a barbecue stand, who was a beloved figure (including by the police, who frequently ate there), was shot and killed by police who saw a group of people partying (not even demonstrating!) in violation of a curfew. Instead of issuing a warning and trying to clear the crowd, the police immediately started shooting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tal-shooting-doesnt-add-up/?itid=ap_timcarman


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

PLEASE read my entire previous post? Please watch the videos from the Park City officer's cam! There was nothing brutal about the arrest. Once he was ARRESTED and ask to get on the ground and he complied and the ONE officer had his knee on his neck restricting breathing, then that was excessive force and BRUTAL and I believe intentionally to kill him. There is no evidence of him being beaten, slammed to the ground, head bashed against the car, or any action that is considered BRUTAL during the arrest, but ONCE ARRESTED AND RESTRAINED the knee on the neck became BRUTAL. 

 Please read my other post again.  This whole arrest doesn't have any elements of a racial killing other than the ONE officer that killed him was considered "white." It does have elements of police corruption and involvement in organized crime. I am not saying Floyd was a bad person or a criminal, just that he knew something and they had to silence him. Why all the rush to judgment and trying to hurry investigators to make charges? No lawyer wants to try a case they have no chance of winning and also those that seek political gain must rush before a complete investigation is complete because they stand a chance of their cause being dispelled. 

Mob action isn't justice. Rioting, looting, and murder of innocent folks trying to protect their business isn't justice, especially when based solely on that the officer was one race and the arrested and killed, another. This site prohibits political discussions so this is all I am going to say. I have said all that can be said as a hot topic and current event. Please watch the Park City officer videos of the arrest and the original video of the killing several times. Then watch the video of the black retired police officer protecting his friend's business and the "protesters" of the Floyd murder shooting him in the head. I find it rather juvenile that when one expresses their opinions and gives reasons for that opinion and they get a response of Cite your Sources. 

My sources are being an eyewitness to a brutal crime and the cover-up by law enforcement over 50 years ago. Hours spent with an Attorney General, testifying before a Grand Jury, endless hours of questioning by police investigators, and watching the closest person in the world to me die. She was shot while driving on a back rural road (she was mistaken for someone else) the vehicle overturned and was set on fire by others involved to make this mistake look like an accident. When I heard the shot I took off running and she was still alive screaming but that quickly stopped as the flames killed her and I stood helpless and numb. I remember the smell of burning flesh and the fire being put out by other neighbors and the funeral home coming and taking the charred body. No police showed up until hours later. No autopsy was done as they said the body was too burned. 

I and others heard the gunshot but hours of police telling us we really didn't and maybe it was a vehicle backfire. I was always intrigued with solving mysteries, but this changed everything. I spent a lot of time reading about crimes, cover-ups, and justice. I have also witnessed a shooting standing about six feet from the shooter. I have also witnessed an attempted strangling. The sounds uddered weren't understandable. Just my opinion based on my life experience ... this was a hit ... 1st-degree murder. Watching all the videos of the arrest and finally, the kill instead of listening to the media or quoting others analysis is my SOURCE! My experienced brain along with my eyes and ears, is my source.  and as I said this is my opinion based on the facts we see in all the videos.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> PLEASE read my entire previous post? Please watch the videos from the Park City officer's cam! There was nothing brutal about the arrest. Once he was ARRESTED and ask to get on the ground and he complied and the ONE officer had his knee on his neck restricting breathing, then that was excessive force and BRUTAL and I believe intentionally to kill him. There is no evidence of him being beaten, slammed to the ground, head bashed against the car, or any action that is considered BRUTAL during the arrest, but ONCE ARRESTED AND RESTRAINED the knee on the neck became BRUTAL.  Please read my other post again.  This whole arrest doesn't have any elements of a racial killing other than the ONE officer that killed him was considered "white." It does have elements of police corruption and involvement in organized crime. I am not saying Floyd was a bad person or a criminal, just that he knew something and they had to silence him. Why all the rush to judgment and trying to hurry investigators to make charges? No lawyer wants to try a case they have no chance of winning and also those that seek political gain must rush before a complete investigation is complete because they stand a chance of their cause being dispelled. Mob action isn't justice. Rioting, looting, and murder of innocent folks trying to protect their business isn't justice, especially when based solely on that the officer was one race and the arrested and killed, another. This site prohibits political discussions so this is all I am going to say. I have said all that can be said as a hot topic and current event. Please watch the Park City officer videos of the arrest and the original video of the killing several times. Then watch the video of the black retired police officer protecting his friend's business and the "protesters" of the Floyd murder shooting him in the head. I find it rather juvenile that when one expresses their opinions and gives reasons for that opinion and they get a response of Cite your Sources. My sources are being an eyewitness to a brutal crime and the cover-up by law enforcement over 50 years ago. Hours spent with an Attorney General, testifying before a Grand Jury, endless hours of questioning by police investigators, and watching the closest person in the world to me die. She was shot while driving on a back rural road (she was mistaken for someone else) the vehicle overturned and was set on fire by others involved to make this mistake look like an accident. When I heard the shot I took off running and she was still alive screaming but that quickly stopped as the flames killed her and I stood helpless and numb. I remember the smell of burning flesh and the fire being put out by other neighbors and the Hurst coming and taking the charred body. No police showed up until hours later. No autopsy was done as they said the body was too burned. I and others heard the gunshot but hours of police telling us we really didn't and maybe it was a vehicle backfire. I was always intrigued with solving mysteries, but this changed everything. I spent a lot of time reading about crimes, cover-ups, and justice. I have also witnessed a shooting standing about six feet from the shooter. I have also witnessed an attempted strangling. The sounds uddered weren't understandable. Just my opinion based on my life experience ... this was a hit and 1st-degree murder. Watching all the videos of the arrest and finally, the kill instead of listening to the media or quoting others analysis is my SOURCE! My experienced brain along with my eyes and ears, is my source.  and as I said this is my opinion based on the facts we see in all the videos.


You really should make paragraphs so this is readable.


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 5, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> ,


George Floyd- Store Owner describes what led up to calling police! Counterfeit 20 dollar bill


----------



## Sunny (Jun 5, 2020)

> No it hasn't been proven that the money was counterfeit. A guilty man would have fled, an innocent man has no need to run. So yes he could have been checking social media.



Or he could have been using his GPS.  Most of us do that when driving to an unfamiliar location. There are all sorts of reasons why he did not take off immediately.  So what?

Aneeda, you are floudering here, trying to make a case against the black people.  It isn't working.  And childishily yapping away and then declaring that you've put various people on "ignore" doesn't help your case any. It just shows how insecure you are about getting any feedback for the highly inflammatory posts you are writing.  Maybe it's time to grow up?

(I know, she can't take my advice, because she has me on ignore.)


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

Watch this several times and make notes on what you see. What about the others that were taken out of the police car? Two other dark-skinned people were taken out of the car. Why didn't they kill them?  Why was Floyd singled out?  I know this is disappointing to many, but I don't see this as a racial murder. A murder, but for some other reason. There is way more to this case than just the one video of the killing. The facts are never revealed in a rush to judgment.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Watch this several times and make notes on what you see. What about the others that were taken out of the police car? Why was Floyd singled out? There is way more to this case than just the one video of the killing. The facts are never revealed in a rush to judgment.


I must admit that I am becoming bored with the obsession over this case.  What we think doesn‘t matter, it will settle out of court or go to a jury trial.  The jury can take notes.  The back and forth efforts of forum members to convince each other that they are right is pointless, as usual.  Our minds are made up.

Lets wait for the investigate, the trial, and the sentencing.  Then we can disagree about the outcome.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> No it hasn't been proven that the money was counterfeit. A guilty man would have fled, an innocent man has no need to run. So yes he could have been checking social media.


Exactly. It hasn’t been proven that he was using counterfeit money. Apparently these were kids who made the ‘assumption’ that it was counterfeit and called the police.
Floyd and the police officer used to work as security guards at the same nightclub last year. Maybe this cop had a personal vendetta against Floyd for reasons unknown to any of us.

What surprises me most about this entire thread are the people who keep trying to justify the barbaric treatment of this man.

At first it was that he shouldn’t have resisted arrest. He didn’t. There’s plenty of video footage to prove this from various sources. Since they didn’t like that answer they claimed that video could have been docked or fixed. Not if all the video(S) match up.

Then it was asked if he actually said he couldn’t breathe. Yes ! Fifteen times. Then it was suggested that nobody else saw this. Yes! The videos show many onlookers saying it. Then it was stated that if he can talk , he can breathe. How do they know? Do they have personal experience being choked to death?
According to professionals people can still mumble things while being choked and clearly he was. He died from it.

Then there was the comments that he fell while being transported to the ambulance. He was already dead so not sure how that was even relevant.

At first they said they’d wait to find out the autopsy report so a private one was done by the family. Since that could be bias they wanted to wait for the one done by the government. The results were the same.

Then they said they ‘d wait until it was investigated by the proper authorities so it was and the police officer was at first arrested with manslaughter and third degree murder which got upgraded to second degree murder.

Then they said the policeman was just using proper procedure so the actual manual was shown as well as information proving he didn’t use proper procedure. ALL the evidence proves that which is why there is such outrage.

Then when all else fails they fall back to the fact that he was a criminal and was using counterfeit money. They don’t know that. None of us do. For all we know this could have been a huge lie and we won’t ever know.

Then they looked  up his background and discover he’s been to jail and done his time for the crimes he committed which has nothing to do with him getting murdered. He did his time. It’s irrelevant what he’s done in the past especially if he’s already been punished for it.

Now since there’s nothing else to condemn him for , they throw in the fact that if this was a white person, it wouldn’t have even made the news.
No! Probably not because the white person would have still been alive.
It’s a proven fact that black people ARE discriminated against and always have been. A black person is 20 times more likely to get shot at and killed for things done that a white person doing the same thing, wouldn’t.

Just look at  the man who got hunted down and shot like a dangerous wild animal by vigilantes while he was jogging. The reason: he stopped at a construction site to have a look at what was being built.
There were cameras there to show he didn’t do a thing wrong. He didn’t steal, he didn’t vandalize or write graffiti on the walks and the owner didn’t care and refused to press charges knowing full well that the man did nothing wrong. Oddly enough THAT in itself caused chaos amongst the racists who were just out for blood. Black blood.

If a white person stopped at a construction site to causally glance at the unfinished building which had no doors or windows, would they have been hunted down and killed while  they were out jogging? Of course not? Even when the police were called by these vigilantes about this apparent trespassing, they didn’t care; especially once the discovered there was no break in and nothing stolen.

If it were a white personal suspected of using counterfeit money, would they be tracked down and murdered?
We don’t even know it was counterfeit money or just an excuse to cause trouble when there wasn’t any just like the black man jogging.
If he was that guilty he probably wouldn’t be out jogging and if Floyd was that guilty he probably wouldn’t be sitting in his car.

Then there’s the point made that on lookers never called the police while they witnessed a man get murdered.
Perhaps like the rest of us, nobody knew he was getting murdered until it was too late. Secondly there were three other cops right there. Why didn’t they stop him? Plus who is going to believe someone calling the police saying that four police officers are trying to murder a man?

It’s mind boggling that a man jogging who gets hunted down by vigilantes, shot and killed and a man who supposedly gets suspected of passing off counterfeit money who gets brutally murdered while under arrest, that the focus is on: what did they do to deserve it. These two were  murdered for petty , possibly fabricated crimes yet they get scrutinized while the murderers are justified for  their actions. It’s truly sickening.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

@Aneeda72 I am trying to convince no one, just get people to think beyond the one video and the rush to judgment. All I know is what I can see in the videos. You may watch them and get a completely different idea from me. My mind is not made up about any of this. I would love to be on the jury and hear the evidence.  Here is another video


----------



## fmdog44 (Jun 5, 2020)

Why was the 3rd degree murder change changed to 2nd degree murder? Perhaps to avoid even more riots when the sentence does not satisfy the rioters/mobs/protestors? I have yet to hear one explanation. If anyone has please post it.


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Exactly. It hasn’t been proven that he was using counterfeit money. Apparently these were kids who made the ‘assumption’ that it was counterfeit and called the police.
> Floyd and the police officer used to work as security guards at the same nightclub last year. Maybe this cop had a personal vendetta against Floyd for reasons unknown to any of us.
> 
> What surprises me most about this entire thread are the people who keep trying to justify the barbaric treatment of this man.
> ...


I agree with you 100%. Some people ignore whats right in front of them. And that has been happening for decades, which has led to protests. People are tired of and disgusted of the repeated senseless violence and killing of black people.  Yes ALL LIVES MATTER! 

***And the riots are mostly from outside instigators***


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

@Keesha I am not trying to justify the action of the officer killing him! In fact, as I have said I think it could be 1st-degree murder. If you watch the videos of the arrest nothing unusual about the police action until Floyd was singled out and moved to where he was killed. Any murder is barbaric and brutal. The treatment of Floyd up until he was singled out and taken to another spot for killing, there was nothing brutal or barbaric, just standard procedures of police in places of high crime. In any discussion, if we omit the necessary info to further our opinion, then that is wrong. There is no justification for killing a suspect unless the officer feels his life is in danger. This was clearly not the case here. Fact for whatever reason the one officer killed him by restricting his breathing. I cannot compare this killing to those that have died from hours of torture, things like hands cut off, stabs to the abdomen, dragged behind a vehicle, staked out in the hot sun, burned at the stake, etc. We paint these pictures in the minds of others when we use words like barbaric. The only act of police brutality in this murder was the officer applying continued excessive knee pressure for way too much time and the other officers not pulling him off. I read an article where the writer says Floyd was beaten down with batons for no reason. That article, since removed, help fuel violence against entire communities that had nothing to do with police brutality or corruption. America is being painted as a racist barbaric country with all corrupt police that deserves to be burned. A few bad apples don't justify burning the orchard. Words are powerful.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Why was the 3rd degree murder change changed to 2nd degree murder? Perhaps to avoid even more riots when the sentence does not satisfy the rioters/mobs/protestors? I have yet to hear one explanation. If anyone has please post it.


Evidence that the officer's actions were intentional and led to Floyd's death. It is the law. If they can prove it was preplanned, then it will go 1st degree. If this was a hit then it will be 1st degree for all of the officers.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> @Keesha I am not trying to justify the action of the officer killing him! In fact, as I have said I think it could be 1st-degree murder. If you watch the videos of the arrest nothing unusual about the police action until Floyd was singled out and moved to where he was killed. Any murder is barbaric and brutal. The treatment of Floyd up until he was singled out and taken to another spot for killing, there was nothing brutal or barbaric, just standard procedures of police in places of high crime. In any discussion, if we omit the necessary info to further our opinion, then that is wrong. There is no justification for killing a suspect unless the officer feels his life is in danger. This was clearly not the case here. Fact for whatever reason the one officer killed him by restricting his breathing. I cannot compare this killing to those that have died from hours of torture, things like hands cut off, stabs to the abdomen, dragged behind a vehicle, staked out in the hot sun, burned at the stake, etc. We paint these pictures in the minds of others when we use words like barbaric. The only act of police brutality in this murder was the officer applying continued excessive knee pressure for way too much time and the other officers not pulling him off. I read an article where the writer says Floyd was beaten down with batons for no reason. That article, since removed, help fuel violence against entire communities that had nothing to do with police brutality or corruption. America is being painted as a racist barbaric country with all corrupt police that deserves to be burned. A few bad apples don't justify burning the orchard. Words are powerful.


I’m not talking about the riots afterwards . There’s plenty of threads to discuss that if you’d like MeAgain, JustMe.


----------



## fmdog44 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ronni said:


> OMG Did you not read this thread from the beginning?
> 
> This thread BEGAN with comments on his violent past, that he was far from perfect, that he’d done prison time, threatened a pregnant woman with a gun.
> 
> ...


I think the point is the media deliberately covers up stories. I seldom watch Fox but I did not see this story about Floyd anywhere. I would think Fox would have brought this to the front.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> I agree with you 100%. Some people ignore whats right in front of them. And that has been happening for decades, which has led to protests. People are tired of and disgusted of the repeated senseless violence and killing of black people.  Yes ALL LIVES MATTER!
> 
> ***And the riots are mostly from outside instigators***


How do we know this is a racially motivated murder? Where is the proof? The victim was black and the killing officer white, but TWO of the other officers were NON WHITE!


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> @Aneeda72 I am trying to convince no one, just get people to think beyond the one video and the rush to judgment. All I know is what I can see in the videos. You may watch them and get a completely different idea from me. My mind is not made up about any of this. I would love to be on the jury and hear the evidence.  Here is another video


Oh, my mistake, sorry.

Yeah, at this point I’ve seen a few of them, you can’t avoid them.  I waiting for the jury and the finish.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 5, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> I think the point is the media deliberately covers up stories. I seldom watch Fox but I did not see this story about Floyd anywhere. I would think Fox would have brought this to the front.


The story was on CNN for as long as it took to show the video.  Then, nothing.  After all there is no money to made about a 75 year old white man being attacked.  I googled and could only find it on ABC news.  But had he been black.  Well, we can all do the math.

I never watch FOX news but I love their tv programs.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ronni said:


> NO.  Just...no.
> 
> In most cases I would heartily agree with you.  In THIS case, I vehemently OPPOSE that statement.  Context has no bearing WHATEVER.  It is inconsequential to what happened, and doesn't, or at least shouldn't, influence one's viewpoint about this.
> 
> ...


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> @Aneeda72 I am trying to convince no one, just get people to think beyond the one video and the rush to judgment. All I know is what I can see in the videos. You may watch them and get a completely different idea from me. My mind is not made up about any of this. I would love to be on the jury and hear the evidence.  Here is another video


 how on earth can you take any kind of evidence from a video that's been so heavily edited?


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ronni, I wasn't replying to your posts.  I was replying to the post about cops somehow going easier on white mass murderers than on black mass murderers, which is BS.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 5, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Ronni, I wasn't replying to your posts.  I was replying to the post about cops somehow going easier on white mass murderers than on black mass murderers, which is BS.


Ah.  OK, understood.  

As you were


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

hollydolly said:


> how on earth can you take any kind of evidence from a video that's been so heavily edited?


That is the job of the investigators and jury that will watch them in their entirety with nothing blacked out. What we are shown in all the videos, along with both autopsy reports, they all agree that he died from lack of oxygen, not from beating, broken bones, being tasered, punched, head slammed against the wall or other forms of police violence we have seen in other cases of black arrest by officers of all races. The problem is by the time the facts are revealed our country is still left with damage from the aftermath and very few will care about the facts whatever they are.


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 5, 2020)

MsFox said:


> How do we know this is a racially motivated murder? Where is the proof? The victim was black and the killing officer white, but TWO of the other officers were NON WHITE!


How do we know it wasn't? Where's the proof?  
Have other motives been exposed and I've missed hearing of them?


----------



## rgp (Jun 5, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> How do we know it wasn't? Where's the proof?
> Have other motives been exposed and I've missed hearing of them?




 How do you prove it was either ? No one can prove someone else's thoughts & or motives. And no one can prove a negative.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 5, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> How do we know it wasn't? Where's the proof?
> Have other motives been exposed and I've missed hearing of them?


Yes, lots of motives have been exposed, but none have any more proof than the racial motive. We DON"T know it wasn't, but everything I am seeing and hearing is it has already been judged as such. Is that justice when we have no proof it was? It should not be lumped in with proved racial killing, because if it proves not to be, the minds of the people have already been influenced and saying, disregard that idea is not heard. I have been on a few murder cases as a juror, one presented as racial that proved not to be so the accused got off on lesser charges because the prosecution's case was built on that as a motive.

Just announced this morning the killing of Arbery, the black man jogger, now has proof it was a racial murder. It took several months to get this evidence. See my point? Rushing to judgment over the tones of one's skin has never served justice. Accusing black men of rape in the early 1900's was not unusual and they were lynched by angry mobs without trial. In cases where the baby was born white, these injustices were quickly forgotten. My father witnessed one such lynching and knew the black man was not guilty because the pregnant girl had been seeing a white man. He was told to shut up or die.

This is where a rush to judgment and mob action leads. Look at the USA cities and the black people murdered and businesses destroyed as a result of this rush to judgment over a white officer killing a black suspect. I say don't decide this is racial until solid evidence is presented. Remember the rush to judgment in the Smollett case? Then it proved to be a hoax and then all is forgotten. How many more people will die and lives and businesses destroyed over this rush to judgment?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> No one can prove someone else's thoughts & or motives. And no one can prove a negative.


Maybe not but you can sure FEEL them.


----------



## rgp (Jun 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Maybe not but you can sure FEEL them.




 No ones "feelings" should enter into anything , concerning this incident . Check your emotions at the door. Deal in facts only.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 5, 2020)

fmdog44 said:


> Why was the 3rd degree murder change changed to 2nd degree murder? Perhaps to avoid even more riots when the sentence does not satisfy the rioters/mobs/protestors? I have yet to hear one explanation. If anyone has please post it.


 
Here is the video of AG Ellison explaining it on  ABC  news program Good Morning America on June 4:






You may have to copy and paste the location into your browser and then select "Minnesota AG explains new charges."


----------



## Keesha (Jun 5, 2020)

rgp said:


> No ones "feelings" should enter into anything , concerning this incident . Check your emotions at the door. Deal in facts only.


I dealt with ALL the major  facts you and others had issues with regarding this case. Post # 153 on this page which you disregarded since it didn’t fit in with your beliefs. 

 Some people choose to wear blinders and dismiss factual evidence and common sense. 

You think you left your feelings out of this debate ? Do you think you left your feelings out of the debate we had about the Japanese where you stated that everyone hated them? Did you suddenly stop hating that race? 

Hate is a powerful emotion . When people are filled with hate  , they don’t want to accept it so they blame everyone else for how they feel. 

Yes, surprisingly HATE IS an emotion. It’s just not a  warm and fuzzy one.


----------



## Damaged Goods (Jun 5, 2020)

Ronni said:


> He was ...  A VICTIM.



Of course he was.

And so are the cops who have been killed and injured in the wake of this abomination by the Antifa and other associated scum, not to mention those whose businesses were trashed


----------



## rgp (Jun 5, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I dealt with ALL the major  facts you and others had issues with regarding this case. Post # 153 on this page which you disregarded since it didn’t fit in with your beliefs.
> 
> Some people choose to wear blinders and dismiss factual evidence and common sense.
> 
> ...




  "Do you think you left your feelings out of the debate we had about the Japanese where you stated that everyone hated them? Did you suddenly stop hating that race? "

   I never said a thing about me hating anyone. When I mentioned hatred for the Japanese, there was indeed virtual nationwide hatred at the time. As time progressed, that feeling lessened. 

 Now, that said, I do not see where [that] & this have any connection ? But if you do ? as it appears .... I'll not waste my time trying to convince you [& others] differently.


----------



## win231 (Jun 5, 2020)

JimBob1952 said:


> Look up
> 
> John Allen Muhammad
> Lee Boyd Malvo
> ...


----------



## win231 (Jun 5, 2020)

Some people would support anything any cop does (as I stated previously).
But I'm still waiting patiently for anyone to justify killing a handcuffed suspect.


----------



## Ceege (Jun 5, 2020)

win231 said:


> Some people would support anything any cop does (as I stated previously).
> But I'm still waiting patiently for anyone to justify killing a handcuffed suspect.



Especially after putting him in a police car and then dragging him back out to do it.


----------



## MsFox (Jun 6, 2020)

win231 said:


> Some people would support anything any cop does (as I stated previously).
> But I'm still waiting patiently for anyone to justify killing a handcuffed suspect.


There is no justified reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. Floyd was on drugs at the time of the arrest and has a long violent criminal history. Floyd was a large strong man and fentanyl increases that power. Defense attorneys will pose the question ... was it the pressure of the knee that alone killed Floyd or was it his already inhibited breathing because he was high on fentanyl and meth and the pressure applied restricted it further. George Floyd was a career criminal that once robbed a black pregnant lady and held a handgun to her belly. He has a very long and violent rap sheet over many years.  If you watch the videos I posted previously, you can see him drop a bag of drugs, or what appears to be drugs. If you watch all the videos now surfacing, it is clear that Floyd was becoming violent and the officers had to take him down. Yes, I agree there is no reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. With new evidence surfacing, I am torn whether the officer intended to kill him or just got carried away trying to get Floyd calmed down. If Floyd and the officer were not involved in a drug ring and this was a hit, then was the killing intentional or accidental, that is the question for the jury to decide after hearing all the evidence. All the outrage and insanity happening is based on one short cell phone video and now with many security, police cam, and other videos surfacing, the real facts are being ignored. Floyd has already been crowned an innocent man, a gentle giant, a victim of racial hate, and a hero, a martyr for justice.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> No ones "feelings" should enter into anything , concerning this incident . Check your emotions at the door. Deal in facts only.



This is funny coming from the person who ignored the facts and said:

"That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"
(Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)


----------



## win231 (Jun 6, 2020)

MsFox said:


> There is no justified reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. Floyd was on drugs at the time of the arrest and has a long violent criminal history. Floyd was a large strong man and fentanyl increases that power. Defense attorneys will pose the question ... was it the pressure of the knee that alone killed Floyd or was it his already inhibited breathing because he was high on fentanyl and meth and the pressure applied restricted it further. George Floyd was a career criminal that once robbed a black pregnant lady and held a handgun to her belly. He has a very long and violent rap sheet over many years.  If you watch the videos I posted previously, you can see him drop a bag of drugs, or what appears to be drugs. If you watch all the videos now surfacing, it is clear that Floyd was becoming violent and the officers had to take him down. Yes, I agree there is no reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. With new evidence surfacing, I am torn whether the officer intended to kill him or just got carried away trying to get Floyd calmed down. If Floyd and the officer were not involved in a drug ring and this was a hit, then was the killing intentional or accidental, that is the question for the jury to decide after hearing all the evidence. All the outrage and insanity happening is based on one short cell phone video and now with many security, police cam, and other videos surfacing, the real facts are being ignored. Floyd has already been crowned an innocent man, a gentle giant, a victim of racial hate, and a hero, a martyr for justice.


The same excuse was quoted by a juror in the first trial for the officers who beat Rodney King - "He was a powerful man."  That worked in the first Simi Valley trial (known as "Racist Cop Land") but it didn't work in the second Federal Court trial.


----------



## rgp (Jun 6, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> This is funny coming from the person who ignored the facts and said:
> 
> "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"
> (Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)




  How is that emotions, on my part ? How is it not a fact, that he should have ?


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> How is that emotions, on my part ? How is it not a fact, that he should have ?



The fact is that he surrendered.  You ignored that fact just to push your own narrative.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> This is funny coming from the person who ignored the facts and said:
> 
> "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"
> (Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)


He missed most evidential facts ‘somehow.’


----------



## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

MsFox said:


> There is no justified reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. Floyd was on drugs at the time of the arrest and has a long violent criminal history. Floyd was a large strong man and fentanyl increases that power. Defense attorneys will pose the question ... was it the pressure of the knee that alone killed Floyd or was it his already inhibited breathing because he was high on fentanyl and meth and the pressure applied restricted it further. George Floyd was a career criminal that once robbed a black pregnant lady and held a handgun to her belly. He has a very long and violent rap sheet over many years.  If you watch the videos I posted previously, you can see him drop a bag of drugs, or what appears to be drugs. If you watch all the videos now surfacing, it is clear that Floyd was becoming violent and the officers had to take him down. Yes, I agree there is no reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. With new evidence surfacing, I am torn whether the officer intended to kill him or just got carried away trying to get Floyd calmed down. If Floyd and the officer were not involved in a drug ring and this was a hit, then was the killing intentional or accidental, that is the question for the jury to decide after hearing all the evidence. All the outrage and insanity happening is based on one short cell phone video and now with many security, police cam, and other videos surfacing, the real facts are being ignored. Floyd has already been crowned an innocent man, a gentle giant, a victim of racial hate, and a hero, a martyr for justice.


Why is it that you start your post saying that ‘there’s no justifiable reason for killing a handcuffed suspect’ yet go on and on with all the justification for doing so. There WAS no calming the suspect down????  He calmly surrendered and oddly enough in another post which you wrote, you said just that. You claimed you saw a video of George and the police officer chatting calming like they were friends. Have you suddenly forgotten that part or just merely dismissed it cause it doesn’t fit your agenda of nailing this guy? Was death not enough for you?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 6, 2020)

> I am torn whether the officer intended to kill him or just got carried away trying to get Floyd calmed down.



Oh come on now, MsFox, you surely aren't saying that with a straight face?

This is beginning to sound like that Monty Python skit where the guy tries to return the dead parrot to the pet store for a refund, and the clerk is dancing all around the obvious truth, saying the bird is not dead, with excuses like, "Maybe he's just tired,"  "He's just resting,"

Carried away, trying to get Floyd calmed down?  For 9 minutes with his knee on the man's throat?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Go on YouTube and watch the videos from the Park City officer's body cam where they moved Floyd around and were talking to him in what appears a calm manner. This wasn't a regular arrest for passing counterfeit money. Very strange behavior and a bit too friendly, even Floyd's voice was calm saying he couldn't breathe. I don't think he had any idea they were going to kill him or he wouldn't have been so cooperative.


This post here you go on to say how calm everything was. You complain that it wasn’t a regular arrest for passing counterfeit money? It was very strange calm behaviour that was too calm and friendly for your liking. Even Floyd’s voice was CALM while he was choking to death?

You didn’t think he had any idea they were going to kill him or he wouldn’t have been SO COOPERATIVE!!!

First off how do you know it was counterfeit money? Were you there personally to get a glimpse and feel of the money? Are you an counterfeit money expert ? Oddly enough nobody else knew this but some how you did.

2/.Secondly? Make up your mind about his demeanour. At first he was too calm for your liking even while he was being choked to death. Even his voice was too calm while he said he couldn’t breathe. Seriously?

When someone’s brutally cutting off your oxygen in a violent manner, you can’t yell out. You don’t have enough air to yell out for help but he STILL DID 15 TIMES! You then write that ‘after the officer settled him down’; two conflicting points of view.

Was this man’s murder not violent enough for you ?


----------



## win231 (Jun 6, 2020)

MsFox said:


> There is no justified reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. Floyd was on drugs at the time of the arrest and has a long violent criminal history. Floyd was a large strong man and fentanyl increases that power. Defense attorneys will pose the question ... was it the pressure of the knee that alone killed Floyd or was it his already inhibited breathing because he was high on fentanyl and meth and the pressure applied restricted it further. George Floyd was a career criminal that once robbed a black pregnant lady and held a handgun to her belly. He has a very long and violent rap sheet over many years.  If you watch the videos I posted previously, you can see him drop a bag of drugs, or what appears to be drugs. If you watch all the videos now surfacing, it is clear that Floyd was becoming violent and the officers had to take him down. Yes, I agree there is no reason for killing a handcuffed suspect. With new evidence surfacing, I am torn whether the officer intended to kill him or just got carried away trying to get Floyd calmed down. If Floyd and the officer were not involved in a drug ring and this was a hit, then was the killing intentional or accidental, that is the question for the jury to decide after hearing all the evidence. All the outrage and insanity happening is based on one short cell phone video and now with many security, police cam, and other videos surfacing, the real facts are being ignored. Floyd has already been crowned an innocent man, a gentle giant, a victim of racial hate, and a hero, a martyr for justice.


How many cops in your family?


----------



## rgp (Jun 6, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> The fact is that he surrendered.  You ignored that fact just to push your own narrative.




 I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion". 

 And now, you know my intent ? my thoughts ?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said he didn't ...


Actually you DID. When this information came out you said that if he had surrendered he might still be alive. I can find your exact post if you’d like.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion".
> 
> And now, you know my intent ? my thoughts ?



rgp:
*
"That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"
(Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)*


----------



## Keesha (Jun 6, 2020)

rgp said:


> That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?


Yep! There it is.


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Yep! There it is.




 I stand by what I said....!

 You can pick me apart all ya like .... that does not change the facts. 

 One; I do not believe that officer set out that day to kill anyone. Two; I'm not convinced we have seen all the video(s) 

 And I still say that if a person is engaged with the police, in an arrest situation. Surrender to the arrest , fight it out in court ...... unless of course that person is guilty of ??? and doesn't want to go to court, or even be taken in for questioning.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> I stand by what I said....!
> 
> You can pick me apart all ya like .... that does not change the facts.
> 
> ...


Yes you can say what you want but you said you didn’t say something and you clearly did which we proved. He wasn’t resisting arrest. Nowhere do you see him resisting arrest and he never got the chance to fight the charges. He was killed by someone not following procedure which AGAIN is why the villain got arrested along with his side kicks.


----------



## Rich29 (Jun 7, 2020)

I agree with the original statement in this thread. George Floyd was a victim of a horrible criminal act, period.


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Yes you can say what you want but you said you didn’t say something and you clearly did which we proved. He wasn’t resisting arrest. Nowhere do you see him resisting arrest and he never got the chance to fight the charges. He was killed by someone not following procedure which AGAIN is why the villain got arrested along with his side kicks.




  You can say what you want....and I will stand by what I said.


----------



## win231 (Jun 7, 2020)

"Minneapolis was among several cities that had policies on the books requiring police officers to intervene to stop colleagues from using unreasonable force, but that didn’t save George Floyd and law enforcement experts say such rules will always run up against entrenched police culture and the fear of being ostracized and branded a “rat.”
Power dynamics may have been magnified in the Floyd case because two of the four officers involved were rookies and the most senior officer on the scene was a training officer, Derek Chauvin, a 19-year police veteran who was seen putting his knee on the back of the black man’s neck despite his cries that he couldn’t breathe.

Even though lawyers for the rookie officers say both men voiced their concerns about Chauvin’s actions in the moment, they ultimately failed to stop him. Chauvin is now charged with second-degree murder, and his three fellow officers are charged with aiding and abetting.

“This is a lesson for every cop in America: If you see something that is wrong, you need to step in,” said Joseph Giacalone, a former New York police sergeant who now teaches at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. “There are a lot of gray areas in policing, but this was crystal clear. … You’re better off being ostracized by the group than going to prison for murder.”

Added Andrew Scott, a former Boca Raton, Florida, police chief who testifies in use-of-force cases: “They’re suffering the effects of an organizational culture that doesn’t allow that or reward that behavior. The fraternity of law enforcement is a tight fraternity and fraternities have a group think.”


----------



## hollydolly (Jun 7, 2020)

George Floyd Speaks


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> You can say what you want....and I will stand by what I said.


Sure. I wouldn’t expect any more from ‘you.’


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Sure. I wouldn’t expect any more from ‘you.’




So I should what ?.... just roll over and agree with you ?

  You see things your way, and I'll do the same..... Until all [official] facts are gathered , and evidence produced.

Frankly, I hope he [officer Chauvin] gets one each, [one you & one I] on his jury. At least at that, it is very likely, all evidence will be looked at closely.


----------



## Knight (Jun 7, 2020)

Two videos

One showing him in a car with two others. A man on the right side with the door open. Two cops approach the "suspect" that supposedly passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill. So here we have a criminal act but the suspected criminal didn't leave where the crime took place.  Does that make sense? Wouldn't it be more likely if Floyd knew the $20.00 was counterfeit he would leave? Instead when the two officers came over the two companions got out stood off to the side while Floyd got out of the car was handcuffed and sat against a wall. 


Other video while handcuffed Floyd is now face down on the pavement, one police officer kneeling on his neck & back while yet another is on his lower torso. 

Seems to me a prosecutor would use those two videos to prove any charges that fit what the law deems appropriate.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> So I should what ?.... just roll over and agree with you ?
> 
> You see things your way, and I'll do the same..... Until all [official] facts are gathered , and evidence produced.
> 
> Frankly, I hope he [officer Chauvin] gets one each, [one you & one I] on his jury. At least at that, it is very likely, all evidence will be looked at closely.


Did I say that? No! Do whatever you want to do. I don’t care.


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Did I say that? No! Do whatever you want to do. I don’t care.



 Now, it sounds like you're letting emotion come back in. IMO emotion has no place in terms of law enforcement / prosecution.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> Now, it sounds like you're letting emotion come back in. IMO emotion has no place in terms of law enforcement / prosecution.


Haha.  Thats ok. I’m not in law enforcement or prosecution and luckily neither are you.


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Haha.  Thats ok. I’m not in law enforcement or prosecution and luckily neither are you.



 "luckily neither are you. "

 So if you, or a loved one were on trial , for your life, or a large portion of it [loss of freedom] you would not want a person like myself [ one that chooses to look deeply at all the facts/evidence] on the jury, in the  prosecutors office ?

Would you rather have someone that operates primarily on emotion ?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

rgp said:


> "luckily neither are you. "
> 
> So if you, or a loved one were on trial , for your life, or a large portion of it [loss of freedom] you would not want a person like myself [ one that chooses to look deeply at all the facts/evidence] on the jury, in the  prosecutors office ?
> 
> Would you rather have someone that operates primarily on emotion ?


I’m not repeating this . We both discussed facts. You chose to view them with blinders on and ignore reality that all the villains were charged with murder as they should be. If you were in a prosecutors office, it didn’t help you at all.

We debated this topic and you lost the argument by not viewing facts as they were but only by what you wished they were.

Anyway I have nothing left to discuss with you.


----------



## rgp (Jun 7, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m not repeating this . We both discussed facts. You chose to view them with blinders on and ignore reality that all the villains were charged with murder as they should be. If you were in a prosecutors office, it didn’t help you at all.
> 
> We debated this topic and you lost the argument by not viewing facts as they were but only by what you wished they were.
> 
> Anyway I have nothing left to discuss with you.




 I'm not repeating this.....I disagree with you, and you are letting emotion rule you. Now it appears you are more concerned with "winning" an argument with me ..... then finding true justice.

   "by not viewing facts as they were but only by what you wished they were."

 Right back at'cha.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 7, 2020)

For those who missed it:

rgp Saturday 7:02pm Post #190
*"I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion". 

And now, you know my intent ? my thoughts ?"*

rgp Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)
* "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"*


This is someone who would be in denial about what was said, even when given quoted proof.  This is someone who doesn't care about facts.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 7, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> For those who missed it:
> 
> rgp Saturday 7:02pm Post #190
> *"I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion".
> ...


Yeah. Not emotion. Just plain denial.


----------



## rgp (Jun 8, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> For those who missed it:
> 
> rgp Saturday 7:02pm Post #190
> *"I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion".
> ...




   "
*And now, you know my intent ? my thoughts ?"

*Yes, I said that. And no you do not.

And I said the one below it as well.........

And stand by it.

Normally I do like to try and define a person .... but since you to have no problem doing it too me I will.

You are a person that is just to willing to see what you choose to see, because it fits your narrative.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 9, 2020)

rgp said:


> "
> Normally I do like to try and define a person .... but since you to have no problem doing it too me I will.
> 
> You are a person that is just to willing to see what you choose to see, because it fits your narrative.



I hardly need to push any narratives when you clearly contradicted yourself.  Once again...

rgp Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)
* "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"*


rgp Saturday 7:02pm Post #190
*"I never said he didn't ... although I still have my doubts, early on.. And IMO it still is not "emotion". 
*

Read your 2 quotes again.  Read it a 100 times.  You've been caught.  I have no need to choose what I want to see.  You've clearly shown who you are by those two quotes.


----------



## rgp (Jun 9, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> I hardly need to push any narratives when you clearly contradicted yourself.  Once again...
> 
> rgp Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)
> * "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"*
> ...




  Your post doesn't even make sense....I know exactly what I said, and i stand by it. You seem more concerned with "catching me" dong "something" than debating the issue .

How are either of my posts stated above .... contradictory ?


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 9, 2020)

rgp said:


> Your post doesn't even make sense....I know exactly what I said, and i stand by it. You seem more concerned with "catching me" dong "something" than debating the issue .
> 
> How are either of my posts stated above .... contradictory ?



Then read those quotes 100 more times.  Read your actual posts if it helps you.  Quotes #39 and #190.  The contradiction is as clear as day, Mr. Facts over emotions.


----------



## rgp (Jun 9, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> Then read those quotes 100 more times.  Read your actual posts if it helps you.  Quotes #39 and #190.  The contradiction is as clear as day, Mr. Facts over emotions.





 Yes he surrendered ... eventually ! But how much did he resist beforehand ?

 I stand by my comments.


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2020)

rgp said:


> Yes he surrendered ... eventually ! But how much did he resist beforehand ?
> 
> I stand by my comments.


You are correct.  Floyd did surrender.  No argument there.  It's rare for someone not to surrender after they are murdered.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 9, 2020)

rgp said:


> Yes he surrendered ... eventually ! But how much did he resist beforehand ?
> 
> I stand by my comments.




Now you're shifting the goalposts.  Your original claim was that he didn't surrender at all.

rgp Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)
* "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"*


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 9, 2020)

win231 said:


> You are correct.  Floyd did surrender.  No argument there.  It's rare for someone not to surrender after they are murdered.


Actually, he did not, dead is dead.  There is nothing after death unless you believe, and maybe not even then.

Of all the comments you have made, whether I agreed or disagreed with you , this comment, the comment not you, is unintelligent and beneath what I have come to expect from you.


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2020)

I just heard that many police departments are going to ban chokeholds.  It is a tactic to appease the ignorant.
As they have in the past, police officers who enjoy brutality will use that as an excuse to use other means to assert their manhood.
The officer who supervised & participated in the Rodney King beating testified that due to the ban on chokeholds, they had to continue the beating. 
Attorney:  "Why did you resort to shooting the suspect?"
Officer:  "Since we are no longer allowed to use the chokehold, we had no other way to make the arrest."


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> Actually, he did not, dead is dead.  There is nothing after death unless you believe, and maybe not even then.
> 
> Of all the comments you have made, whether I agreed or disagreed with you , this comment, the comment not you, is unintelligent and beneath what I have come to expect from you.


It really breaks my heart that you find my comment unintelligent & beneath me.  I don't think I'll ever sleep or eat again.

Try not to forget to take your meds.


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 9, 2020)

Some people just cannot bear not having the last word. No matter how strange it may be, they simply cannot stand it if someone else speaks last. It's kind of funny to watch.


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2020)

Pappy said:


> Just now, watching The Reverend Jessie Jackson on Floyd’s service. Going into the third hour on tv. I know folks are going to not like what I say, but isn’t this a bit too much. Am I missing something here. If I am, explain it to me.


If Mr. Floyd had just died of some other cause, it wouldn't be a bit too much; he would have just been another everyday death.  It's a bit too much because he was unjustly murdered by a police officer - something he didn't deserve.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 9, 2020)

win231 said:


> It really breaks my heart that you find my comment unintelligent & beneath me.  I don't think I'll ever sleep or eat again.
> 
> Try not to forget to take your meds.


OMGosh thanks for the reminder, I forgot to take them today.  I knew you cared.  

Well, I rarely sleep and I’ve lost 15 pounds since the virus started so why should I be the only one?


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 9, 2020)

Pappy said:


> Just now, watching The Reverend Jessie Jackson on Floyd’s service. Going into the third hour on tv. I know folks are going to not like what I say, but isn’t this a bit too much. Am I missing something here. If I am, explain it to me.


It’s too much for me, but I suppose it varies from person to person.  Just bury him.  I wonder whose paying for all this?  The city probably.  Hopefully he wanted to be buried by his mother.  Again personal choice, hope somebody asked him before he died.

I am being cremated with no funeral, and buried as far away from my parents as possible.  Just saying.


----------



## Lethe200 (Jun 9, 2020)

A fuller picture on who George Floyd was:

*George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’*
Mr. Floyd had big plans for life nearly 30 years ago. His death in police custody is powering a movement against police brutality and racial injustice.
NY Times 09June2020
Full article: https://www.nytimes.com/article/geo...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

(excerpt)... As a tight end, Mr. Floyd helped power his football team to the state championship game in 1992. In one exhilarating moment that was captured on video — and circulated after his death — Mr. Floyd soars above an opponent in the end zone to catch a touchdown pass.

After graduating from high school, Mr. Floyd left Texas on a basketball scholarship to South Florida Community College (now South Florida State College). “I was looking for a power forward and he fit the bill. He was athletic and I liked the way he handled the ball,” said George Walker, who recruited Mr. Floyd. “He was a starter and scored 12 to 14 points and seven to eight rebounds.”

Mr. Floyd transferred two years later, in 1995, to Texas A&M University’s Kingsville campus, but he did not stay long. He returned home to Houston — and to the Third Ward — without a degree.

Known locally as the Tré, the Third Ward, south of downtown, is among the city’s historic black neighborhoods, and it has been featured in the music of one of the most famous people to grow up there, Beyoncé. At times, life in the Bricks was unforgiving. Poverty, drugs, gangs and violence scarred many Third Ward families. Several of Mr. Floyd’s classmates did not live past their 20s.

Soon after returning, Mr. Floyd started rapping. He appeared as Big Floyd on mixtapes created by DJ Screw, a fixture in Houston’s hip-hop scene in the 1990s. His voice deep, his rhymes purposefully delivered at a slow-motion clip, Mr. Floyd rapped about “choppin’ blades” — driving cars with oversize rims — and his Third Ward pride.

For about a decade starting in his early 20s, Mr. Floyd had a string of arrests in Houston, according to court and police records. One of those arrests, for a $10 drug deal in 2004, cost him 10 months in a state jail.

Four years later, Mr. Floyd pleaded guilty to aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon and spent four years in prison. He was released in 2013 and returned home again — this time to begin the long, hard work of trying to turn his life around, using his missteps as a lesson for others.

Stephen Jackson, a retired professional basketball player from Port Arthur, Texas, met Mr. Floyd a year or two before Mr. Jackson joined the N.B.A. They had sports in common, Mr. Jackson said, but they also looked alike — enough to call each other “twin” as a term of endearment.

“I tell people all the time, the only difference between me and George Floyd, the only difference between me and my twin, the only difference between me and Georgie, is the fact that I had more opportunities,” he said, later adding, “If George would have had more opportunities, he might have been a pro athlete in two sports.”

After prison, Mr. Floyd became even more committed to his church. Inspired by a daughter, Gianna Floyd, born after he was released, Mr. Floyd spent a lot of time at Resurrection Houston, a church that holds many of its services on the basketball court in the middle of Cuney Homes. He would set up chairs and drag out to the center of the court the service’s main attraction — the baptism tub.

“We’d baptize people on the court and we’ve got this big old horse trough. And he’d drag that thing by himself onto that court,” said Patrick Ngwolo, a lawyer and pastor of Resurrection Houston, who described Mr. Floyd as a father figure for younger community residents.

Eventually, Mr. Floyd became involved in a Christian program with a history of taking men to Minnesota from the Third Ward and providing them with drug rehabilitation and job placement services. “When you say, ‘I’m going to Minnesota,’ everybody knows you’re going to this church-work program out of Minnesota,” Mr. Ngwolo said, “and you’re getting out of this environment.” His move would be a fresh start, Mr. Ngwolo said, his story one of redemption.

In Minnesota, Mr. Floyd lived in a red clapboard duplex with two roommates on the eastern edge of St. Louis Park, a leafy, gentrifying Minneapolis suburb. Beginning sometime in 2017, he worked as a security guard at the Salvation Army’s Harbor Light Center, a downtown homeless shelter and transitional housing facility. The staff members got to know Mr. Floyd as someone with a steady temperament, whose instinct to protect employees included walking them to their cars.

“It takes a special person to work in the shelter environment,” said Brian Molohon, executive director of development at the Salvation Army Northern Division. “Every day you are bombarded with heartache and brokenness.”

Even as Mr. Floyd settled into his position, he looked for other jobs. While working at the Salvation Army, he answered a job ad for a bouncer at Conga Latin Bistro, a restaurant and dance club. Jovanni Thunstrom, the owner, said Mr. Floyd quickly became part of the work family. He came in early and left late. And though he tried, he never quite mastered salsa dancing.

“Right away I liked his attitude,” said Mr. Thunstrom, who was also Mr. Floyd’s landlord. “He would shake your hand with both hands. He would bend down to greet you.”

Mr. Floyd kept a Bible by his bed. Often, he read it aloud. And despite his height, Mr. Floyd would fold himself in the hallway to frequently pray with Theresa Scott, one of his roommates. “He had this real cool way of talking. His voice reminded me of Ray Charles. He’d talk fast and he was so soft-spoken,” said Alvin Manago, 55, who met Mr. Floyd at a 2016 softball game. They bonded instantly and became roommates. “He had this low-pitched bass. You had to get used to his accent to understand him. He’d say, ‘Right-on, right-on, right-on.’”

Mr. Floyd spent the final weeks of his life recovering from the coronavirus, which he learned he had in early April. After he was better, he started spending more time with his girlfriend, and he had not seen his roommates in a few weeks, Mr. Manago said.

Like millions of people, his roommates in the city that was to be his fresh start watched the video that captured Mr. Floyd taking his last breaths. They heard him call out for his late mother — “Mama! Mama!”

On Tuesday morning, 15 days after that anguished cry, Mr. Floyd will be laid to rest beside her.


----------



## rgp (Jun 9, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> Now you're shifting the goalposts.  Your original claim was that he didn't surrender at all.
> 
> rgp Thursday at 11:12 AM Post #39)
> * "That's why he should have surrendered to the arrest.....or did you miss that part somehow ?"*




 I never said any such thing.....I said had he surrendered  , things would have been different. Ended differently . If you can't figure out , that I was referring to an immediate surrender? ...... that's on you!

And here once again, you seem more interested in arguing with me, about my verbiage , than the topic itself.


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 9, 2020)

Lethe200 said:


> A fuller picture on who George Floyd was:
> 
> *George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’*
> Mr. Floyd had big plans for life nearly 30 years ago. His death in police custody is powering a movement against police brutality and racial injustice.
> ...


----------



## JimBob1952 (Jun 9, 2020)

Lethe200 said:


> A fuller picture on who George Floyd was:
> 
> *George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’*
> Mr. Floyd had big plans for life nearly 30 years ago. His death in police custody is powering a movement against police brutality and racial injustice.
> ...



No saint, certainly, but I appreciate his efforts to turn his life around.  

 I hope something good comes out of his unjust death.  The "defund the police" movement is nonsensical, but Senator Cory Booker is sponsoring a police reform bill which in a better world would find bipartisan support.


----------



## win231 (Jun 9, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> It’s too much for me, but I suppose it varies from person to person.  Just bury him.  I wonder whose paying for all this?  The city probably.  Hopefully he wanted to be buried by his mother.  Again personal choice, hope somebody asked him before he died.
> 
> I am being cremated with no funeral, and buried as far away from my parents as possible.  Just saying.


Yes, the city is probably paying for it.  Maybe the same city that hired those four criminal officers.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 10, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yes, the city is probably paying for it.  Maybe the same city that hired those four criminal officers.


As if the city could predict what they would do, try giving it a rest, you really seem obsessed with them.  I am starting to worry about you, really.  I’ve stopped watching the news for about a week now, and am responding less to these threads.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 10, 2020)

Lethe200 said:


> A fuller picture on who George Floyd was:
> 
> *George Floyd, From ‘I Want to Touch the World’ to ‘I Can’t Breathe’*
> Mr. Floyd had big plans for life nearly 30 years ago. His death in police custody is powering a movement against police brutality and racial injustice.
> ...



Thank you, Lethe200. I have taken your post and shared it with members of an Australian forum who see George Floyd as nothing but a thug. Unfortunately I don't think it will make a big dent in their fixed attitudes but I keep trying.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 10, 2020)

> Some people just cannot bear not having the last word. No matter how strange it may be, they simply cannot stand it if someone else speaks last. It's kind of funny to watch.



Amen to that, RadishRose! And that comment pretty much says it all!


----------



## Pepper (Jun 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> It’s too much for me, but I suppose it varies from person to person.  Just bury him.  I wonder whose paying for all this?  The city probably.  Hopefully he wanted to be buried by his mother.





win231 said:


> Yes, the city is probably paying for it.  Maybe the same city that hired those four criminal officers.



Hello.  Former boxer Floyd Mayweather has picked up any and all expenses related to the funeral.  No public money was used.


----------



## win231 (Jun 10, 2020)

Aneeda72 said:


> As if the city could predict what they would do, try giving it a rest, you really seem obsessed with them.  I am starting to worry about you, really.  I’ve stopped watching the news for about a week now, and am responding less to these threads.


Suit yourself.  Whatever works for you.


----------



## Aneeda72 (Jun 10, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Hello.  Former boxer Floyd Mayweather has picked up any and all expenses related to the funeral.  No public money was used.


Thanks for the information.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 10, 2020)

Hi Pepper! 
 Nice to have you back.
I really missed you.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 10, 2020)

I'd heard about this before:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads/

If the attack was personal, it does shed an entirely new light on the entire tragedy...


----------



## win231 (Jun 10, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> I'd heard about this before:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-nightclub-bumped-heads/
> 
> If the attack was personal, it does shed an entirely new light on the entire tragedy...


They said they bumped heads over Chauvin's treatment of black people.
No kiddin'.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 10, 2020)

win231 said:


> They said they bumped heads over Chauvin's treatment of black people.
> No kiddin'.


I was referring to the part that said there were already bad feelings between both individuals personally.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 10, 2020)

rgp said:


> I never said any such thing.....I said had he surrendered  , things would have been different. Ended differently . If you can't figure out , that I was referring to an immediate surrender? ...... that's on you!
> 
> And here once again, you seem more interested in arguing with me, about my verbiage , than the topic itself.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 10, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> View attachment 109186


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> View attachment 109186




 I haven't moved anything, my argument has remained the same ..... But please, continue to display your adolescent replies. They say more about you, than I.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 11, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


>



 Hey, I tried. But some people can't stop being in a state of denial.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 11, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> Hey, I tried. But some people can't stop being in a state of denial.


The pattern is the same with any argument; Deflection and denial . If that doesn’t work they lie. If this is pointed out to them they start accusing you of personal attacks. Debating with these types of people is senseless. They refuse to see past their own beliefs which have  nothing to do with facts or details and everything to do with their own personal feelings.


----------



## Nate007 (Jun 11, 2020)

Keesha said:


> The pattern is the same with any argument; Deflection and denial . If that doesn’t work they lie. If this is pointed out to them they start accusing you of personal attacks. Debating with these types of people is senseless. They refuse to see past their own beliefs which have  nothing to do with facts or details and everything to do with their own personal feelings.



You had given RGP plenty of facts-based arguments, but the minute you mentioned the word "feelings" he pounced on that and made it an opportunity to paint you as a person who only argues based on emotions.  It's an old and tired tactic that's very disrespectful.  Sorry you had to go through that.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 11, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> Hey, I tried. But some people can't stop being in a state of denial.


You did great, Nate, and your words speak nothing but the truth.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 11, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> You had given RGP plenty of facts-based arguments, but the minute you mentioned the word "feelings" he pounced on that and made it an opportunity to paint you as a person who only argues based on emotions.  It's an old and tired tactic that's very disrespectful.  Sorry you had to go through that.


Thank you. I wasn’t sure if anyone else noticed that. I gave plenty of fact based arguments which were ignored.


Keesha said:


> Exactly. It hasn’t been proven that he was using counterfeit money. Apparently these were kids who made the ‘assumption’ that it was counterfeit and called the police and store owner.
> 
> Floyd and the police officer used to work as security guards at the same nightclub last year. Maybe this cop had a personal vendetta against Floyd for reasons unbeknown to any of us.
> 
> ...


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

Keesha said:


> The pattern is the same with any argument; Deflection and denial . If that doesn’t work they lie. If this is pointed out to them they start accusing you of personal attacks. Debating with these types of people is senseless. They refuse to see past their own beliefs which have  nothing to do with facts or details and everything to do with their own personal feelings.




 Right back at'cha.......


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 11, 2020)

Your nickname is Lastword.


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

Nate007 said:


> You had given RGP plenty of facts-based arguments, but the minute you mentioned the word "feelings" he pounced on that and made it an opportunity to paint you as a person who only argues based on emotions.  It's an old and tired tactic that's very disrespectful.  Sorry you had to go through that.




 Another lie , I never said she argues based only on emotion, I said emotion did not belong IMO in the original topic   argument.


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Thank you. I wasn’t sure if anyone else noticed that. I gave plenty of fact based arguments which were ignored.




  You showed no 'facts' to me. You only showed what _you _believed to be facts.


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

RadishRose said:


> Your nickname is Lastword.




 And what does this make you ??


----------



## Sunny (Jun 11, 2020)

Rgp, have you ever backed off and let the other person (in this case, many people) have the last word?  Ever? In fact, have you ever been wrong about anything?

I didn't think so.


----------



## rgp (Jun 11, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Rgp, have you ever backed off and let the other person (in this case, many people) have the last word?  Ever? In fact, have you ever been wrong about anything?
> 
> I didn't think so.




 I have found myself wrong, in many cases over the years. However, no one here has posted fact, to make me think I am in this case. They may think it is fact, and it may be too them, but not too me.

 Rather than right or wrong, why can't you & others just accept the fact that we see things differently as they apply to this case. And respectfully accept my opinion , as I will accept yours......and just go on?

 You and others are so hell bent on proving me wrong..and insulting me ..... it appears you all have lost site of the subject. 

Thank you for the exalted position, but I'm really not that important.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 12, 2020)

rgp said:


> I have found myself wrong, in many cases over the years. However, no one here has posted fact, to make me think I am in this case. They may think it is fact, and it may be too them, but not too me.
> 
> Rather than right or wrong, why can't you & others just accept the fact that we see things differently as they apply to this case. And respectfully accept my opinion , as I will accept yours......and just go on?
> 
> ...



Well, I certainly do agree with that last statement, that you are not that important.  But....

Can you find anything you have ever posted on this forum to indicate that you _might _actually be wrong about something, or that something that someone else posted has caused you to change your mind?  These arguments are taking on the characteristics of schoolyard quarrels. You mention "facts," but the facts are not really too instrumental; people seem to come into these battles with their minds already made up, and then they dig their heels in.   If anyone cites facts, they are quickly brushed aside by those who do not like them.

Your first couple of sentences are worthy of the Dowager Countess in Downton Abbey.

Isobel:  How you hate to be wrong.
Violet:  I wouldn't know.  I'm not familiar with the sensation.


----------



## rgp (Jun 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, I certainly do agree with that last statement, that you are not that important.  But....
> 
> Can you find anything you have ever posted on this forum to indicate that you _might _actually be wrong about something, or that something that someone else posted has caused you to change your mind?  These arguments are taking on the characteristics of schoolyard quarrels. You mention "facts," but the facts are not really too instrumental; people seem to come into these battles with their minds already made up, and then they dig their heels in.   If anyone cites facts, they are quickly brushed aside by those who do not like them.
> 
> ...



 Well for the first half of this ..... right back at'cha.

 As for the second part ? I know not who those people are?


----------



## rgp (Jun 12, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Well, I certainly do agree with that last statement, that you are not that important.  But....
> 
> Can you find anything you have ever posted on this forum to indicate that you _might _actually be wrong about something, or that something that someone else posted has caused you to change your mind?  These arguments are taking on the characteristics of schoolyard quarrels. You mention "facts," but the facts are not really too instrumental; people seem to come into these battles with their minds already made up, and then they dig their heels in.   If anyone cites facts, they are quickly brushed aside by those who do not like them.
> 
> ...




 And once again, your reply is more about 'attacking' me .... debating 'about me' , and having nothing to do with subject at hand ? You seem more concerned with me ....... than the subject.

 I am however honored that you find me so interesting ..........


----------



## Knight (Jun 12, 2020)

Definition of victim
1: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent
: such as
a(1): one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions
a victim of cancer
a victim of the auto crash
a murder victim
(2): one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim

RGP To debate whether or not George Floyd was a victim as the concept of the thread suggests, I'd like to offer the above for a common understanding of what a victim is defined as. Can you accept merriam-webster.com/dictionary/victim as a basis for debate?

If you can, then using that definition I don't think there can be a debate. He was a victim. 

If not what points can you make to refute that definition?


----------



## Pepper (Jun 12, 2020)

No disrespect to @rgp intended, I promise.  Lately, I have been watching a lot of Sesame Street with my incredible 2 year old grandson, and, as I'm reading this thread I'm thinking of @rgp as:

I find @rgp to be so very necessary here.  Three cheers!  (That's Oscar the Grouch in case anyone doesn't know! )


----------



## rgp (Jun 12, 2020)

Knight said:


> Definition of victim
> 1: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent
> : such as
> a(1): one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions
> ...




 OK, ....... I do not see him as a victim, I see him as a street thug that put himself into a precarious situation ..... and lost .


----------



## rgp (Jun 12, 2020)

Pepper said:


> No disrespect to @rgp intended, I promise.  Lately, I have been watching a lot of Sesame Street with my incredible 2 year old grandson, and, as I'm reading this thread I'm thinking of @rgp as:
> View attachment 109418
> I find @rgp to be so very necessary here.  Three cheers!  (That's Oscar the Grouch in case anyone doesn't know! )




  Yet another reply , having nothing to do with the subject. Only expressing opinion about me.

  And yet you start out with a "no disrespect" intended ?! Then continue with an utter disrespectful 'cartoon' . Much like a child might do..


----------



## gennie (Jun 12, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, ....... I do not see him as a victim, I see him as a street thug that put himself into a precarious situation ..... and lost .


I have always felt that when someone chooses to break the law, they are also choosing to give up a few rights and privileges but nothing he did that day should have caused him to lose the right to live.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 12, 2020)

Sorry you feel that way @rgp because I really enjoy, and get a lot from, your opinions and the way you express yourself.  I love Oscar the Grouch.  Truce?


----------



## win231 (Jun 12, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, ....... I do not see him as a victim, I see him as a street thug that put himself into a precarious situation ..... and lost .


Any racist would agree.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 13, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, ....... I do not see him as a victim, I see him as a street thug that put himself into a precarious situation ..... and lost .


Every one of your responses indicate that you see Mr. Floyd's death as simply a consequence of his lifestyle, choices, whatever. Along the lines of "if you touch a hot stove, don't be surprised when you burn your fingers."  

Natural or logical consequences are *expected* outcomes resulting from an action or decision.  You touch a hot stove, you burn your fingers.  You go outside without a jacket in freezing weather, you get cold. You don't do your job of work, you get fired. You overspend, you go into debt.  You break the law you go to jail. All those outcomes follow, as a natural progression.  Simple.  This action = that result.  

*Death is NOT a natural, logical or expected consequence of passing a counterfeit $20 bill. Period. 

Murder by Police is NOT the natural or expected consequence of  an arrest. *

There is NO scenario under which death would be a natural or expected consequence for those things.  To argue otherwise is to prove your ignorance.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 13, 2020)

I quoted two lines from the PBS series Downton Abbey, in which someone tells Lady Violet, "How you hate to be wrong," and Violet answers, "I wouldn't know. I'm not familiar with the sensation."



rgp said:


> Well for the first half of this ..... right back at'cha.
> 
> As for the second part ? I know not who those people are?



Just to contribute to your education, rgp,  Lady Violet is the Dowager Countess in"Downton Abbey."  She is played by Maggie Smith, and is very haughty, has everyone terrified most of the time, and of course, is never wrong. (She's also very funny.)


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Sorry you feel that way @rgp because I really enjoy, and get a lot from, your opinions and the way you express yourself.  I love Oscar the Grouch.  Truce?



 Truce.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

gennie said:


> I have always felt that when someone chooses to break the law, they are also choosing to give up a few rights and privileges but nothing he did that day should have caused him to lose the right to live.




   "caused him to lose the right to live. "

 Well, that's where he lost. Had he not put himself in the position that he did .......... _*NONE*_ of this would have happened. 

 When someone breaks the law .... anything can happen..... ergo, don't break the law.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

win231 said:


> Any racist would agree.




_*Exactly*_ where did I note his race/color ??


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Every one of your responses indicate that you see Mr. Floyd's death as simply a consequence of his lifestyle, choices, whatever. Along the lines of "if you touch a hot stove, don't be surprised when you burn your fingers."
> 
> Natural or logical consequences are *expected* outcomes resulting from an action or decision.  You touch a hot stove, you burn your fingers.  You go outside without a jacket in freezing weather, you get cold. You don't do your job of work, you get fired. You overspend, you go into debt.  You break the law you go to jail. All those outcomes follow, as a natural progression.  Simple.  This action = that result.
> 
> ...





Ronni said:


> Every one of your responses indicate that you see Mr. Floyd's death as simply a consequence of his lifestyle, choices, whatever. Along the lines of "if you touch a hot stove, don't be surprised when you burn your fingers."
> 
> Natural or logical consequences are *expected* outcomes resulting from an action or decision.  You touch a hot stove, you burn your fingers.  You go outside without a jacket in freezing weather, you get cold. You don't do your job of work, you get fired. You overspend, you go into debt.  You break the law you go to jail. All those outcomes follow, as a natural progression.  Simple.  This action = that result.
> 
> ...





*"Death is NOT a natural, logical or expected consequence of passing a counterfeit $20 bill. Period."

 Passing a counterfeit $20 bill is a violation of law.....hence the police become involved. Anytime the police engage a suspect ...... any outcome is possible.

"Murder by Police is NOT the natural or expected consequence of  an arrest. "

 You call it murder ... I do not.


  "*
Every one of your responses indicate that you see Mr. Floyd's death as simply a consequence of his lifestyle, choices, whatever. Along the lines of "if you touch a hot stove, don't be surprised when you burn your fingers."

 Exactly correct.

 "To argue otherwise is to prove your ignorance."

 And once again, a personal attack / insult. 
You just cannot accept an opposing argument / opinion, to yours.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I quoted two lines from the PBS series Downton Abbey, in which someone tells Lady Violet, "How you hate to be wrong," and Violet answers, "I wouldn't know. I'm not familiar with the sensation."
> 
> 
> 
> Just to contribute to your education, rgp,  Lady Violet is the Dowager Countess in"Downton Abbey."  She is played by Maggie Smith, and is very haughty, has everyone terrified most of the time, and of course, is never wrong. (She's also very funny.)




  I do not watch that program, and I do not base my arguments / debates, on a TV show.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 13, 2020)

The program is not available to watch now, rgp, even if you wanted to. It played its final episode several years ago, after a successful run over several years.  

If you could manage to lighten up a bit, and turn down the volume on your self-pity, you would realize that I was making a joking reference to the fact that you are never wrong (in your own opinion), similar to the character in that show. And that was the only reason I brought her up.  There are many characters in literature, starting with Shakespeare, whose names have become synonymous with various character traits.

Hamlet = Endless speculating and philosophizing

Romeo = Hopeless romanticism

Scrooge = Meanness, stinginess, lack of empathy, at least until he has that last dream

Lady Macbeth, also Captain Ahab = Driving, obsessive ambition

Lady Violet = Never being wrong, in her own opinion

Are you deliberately misunderstanding, or what?


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> The program is not available to watch now, rgp, even if you wanted to. It played its final episode several years ago, after a successful run over several years.
> 
> If you could manage to lighten up a bit, and turn down the volume on your self-pity, you would realize that I was making a joking reference to the fact that you are never wrong (in your own opinion), similar to the character in that show. And that was the only reason I brought her up.  There are many characters in literature, starting with Shakespeare, whose names have become synonymous with various character traits.
> 
> ...




 I understand completely & clearly ...... But again, I do not base my arguments on a TV program...

 If we are going to go there ? ...... What about the song, "I fought the law & the law won"

 LOL, "lighten up a bit" ? you do not even know me , and yet you judge me. My "self-pity" has nothing to do with "self pity" ....... It has to do with the fact that so many of the replies do not even address the subject. They are directed only toward insulting me ! That sort of reply, speaks only to the ignorance of the person replying.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 13, 2020)

True, I do not know you personally.  And I don't even know if the persona you are exhibiting on this forum is genuine.  You might be completely different in person.

But I do know your persona here very well.  Your replies are consistent and very predictable.  And that is what I am responding to, whether it is the real "you" or not. 

The many answers you have inspired are in response to what _you _have written.  People are responding to your right-wing attitudes about absolutely everything, and to your refusal to ever allow anyone else to have the last word. That is what we see here, and it's all we have to go on.

Most answers you have received have a lot to do with the opinions you have expressed, and they certainly do "address the subject." And some of them have been responses to your obvious baiting. If you're going to keep doing that, you have to expect whatever responses come your way, both pro and con.  Maybe it's time to stop being so thin-skinned, and put on your big boy pants?

Oh yes, about my reference to Lady Violet, your repetition that you do not base your arguments on a TV program is an interesting deflection away from the subject.  No one has said your arguments are based on a TV program.  You keep introducing that, thinking you are making some sort of a point.  I was comparing your self-importance and refusal ever to back down to the way this kind of character is satirized.  Lady Violet is there for comic entertainment value, nothing more.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Sunny said:


> True, I do not know you personally.  And I don't even know if the persona you are exhibiting on this forum is genuine.  You might be completely different in person.
> 
> But I do know your persona here very well.  Your replies are consistent and very predictable.  And that is what I am responding to, whether it is the real "you" or not.
> 
> ...




  "Maybe it's time to stop being so thin-skinned, and put on your big boy pants? "

   Shaking my head ....... here again , an insult toward me, that has nothing to do with the subject. I am not being "thin-skinned" ..... I am pointing at the obvious , and the fact.

  "and to your refusal to ever allow anyone else to have the last word. "

 So I should just what? quit my argument at some point, hence indicating that, at that point, I agree with someone I do not ?

 I will continue my argument as long as I see things differently, and do not agree with what is being said.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 13, 2020)

We ALL addressed the subject already and debated facts. These facts weren’t personal opinions but were well researched answers from the professionals  looking after this case. Our personal opinions make no difference to this case nor should they. Action was taken and the murderers were arrested by the professionals.    
          ( which we aren’t )

Nobody here is trying to convince any of the members here who think he deserved what he got. It would be like trying to convince the KKK which is truly pointless.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Keesha said:


> We ALL addressed the subject already and debated facts. These facts weren’t personal opinions but were well researched answers from the professionals  looking after this case. Our personal opinions make no difference to this case nor should they. Action was taken and the murderers were arrested by the professionals.       ( which we aren’t )
> 
> Nobody here is trying to convince any of the members here who think he deserved what he got. It would be like trying to convince the KKK which is truly pointless.




   You and others debated the FACTS as you see them .... I see them differently , and you and others just cannot see & or accept that. IF you [and others] are satisfied with your own conclusions? Then why concern yourself with mine.

  "Our personal opinions make no difference to this case nor should they."

 If that is true ? then why are we even having this debate / discussion?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 13, 2020)

I’m sorry rgp if you thought I was speaking personally to YOU . I wasn’t.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’m sorry rgp if you thought I was speaking personally to YOU . I wasn’t.




OK, my bad ..... let me change the {I} to {some of us}. Even though the other {some of us} are eerily quiet


----------



## Knight (Jun 13, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, ....... I do not see him as a victim, I see him as a street thug that put himself into a precarious situation ..... and lost .


Other than his past history what proof do you have he was guilty of anything? You like to say you deal in facts so what fact or proof do you have that he did anything wrong?

visual & audio facts  that fit the definition I provided.

On video George Floyd got out of his car was handcuffed & sat peacefully against a wall until he was taken  towards the the police cruiser where we see him pinned to the ground. One officer kneeling on his neck & back another on his lower torso. Floyd able to say he couldn't breathe. He was pinned down with his hands cuffed behind his back until he died in police custody.

I'm not attacking you just expressing my opinion that you haven't countered facts with facts you have only expressed an opinion based on his past history. When you post facts that counter what is visually & audio able to see & hear I'll be happy to read and evaluate your point of view.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 13, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, my bad ..... let me change the {I} to {some of us}. Even though the other {some of us} are eerily quiet


Some of you.?  For the last three pages you’ve criticized anybody adding anything to this thread who disagrees with your OPINION!

Sunny, Pepper, knight, win, RadishRose, Gennie, Nate and myself are some of them

You are no longer  discussing George Floyd but merely attacking anyone whose opinion differs from yours.

A crime committed by George wasn’t proven so not sure what crime you are referring to. What counterfeit money did you see.? What counterfeit money did anyone see.? That’s what the courts are for, they have judges and lawyers and other professionals dealing with this however the police officer took the law into his own hands ....which is why he was charged. Was George charged with a crime? No! He was murdered before anything was proven. The police and other professionals caught and arrested him.

That’s reality and reality doesn’t care about personal opinions.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Some of you.?  For the last three pages you’ve criticized anybody adding anything to this thread who disagrees with your OPINION!
> 
> Sunny, Pepper, knight, win, RadishRose, Gennie, Nate and myself are some of them
> 
> ...




   Then why do you argue [your] reality ? 

  I saw a few reports on the news, that showed the money.

  "You are no longer  discussing George Floyd but merely attacking anyone whose opinion differs from yours."

 Wrong....just plain wrong. I am not the one that strayed from arguing the issue, to personal attacks , and attacks of anyone's intelligence .

 "Some of you.?  For the last three pages you’ve criticized anybody adding anything to this thread who disagrees with your OPINION!"

 Wrong once again .... I don't care who, or how many of you disagree with me on anything. But don't attack my persona , or intellect just because you do. Accept my opinion, disagree as you will, as I accept yours and disagree as i will.


----------



## rgp (Jun 13, 2020)

Knight said:


> Other than his past history what proof do you have he was guilty of anything? You like to say you deal in facts so what fact or proof do you have that he did anything wrong?
> 
> visual & audio facts  that fit the definition I provided.
> 
> ...




 His criminal history is proof, add that to the fact that he passed 'funny money' , the police were called , and he lost. He is a felon, I believe six times over ..... I don't care.

 Just 'google' his record in Texas.


----------



## Knight (Jun 13, 2020)

rgp said:


> His criminal history is proof, add that to the fact that he passed 'funny money' , the police were called , and he lost. He is a felon, I believe six times over ..... I don't care.
> 
> Just 'google' his record in Texas.


I'm pretty sure you understand our justice system, innocent until proven guilty. Unless the counterfeit money could be proven to be passed by George Floyd all he was at the time was accused. He never made it to court to make that determination.  Your fact is correct but is irrelevant to what Floyd was accused of.  So the only fact you offer is not valid in this instance. 

I understand you are set in what you believe is  the reason for the police office to kneel on his neck & back until he died. That kind of thinking was popular with the Nazi's when considering the value of Jewish life.  Or the Japanese after capturing American soldiers. It's a mindset that hopefully goes away someday.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 13, 2020)

Let's look away from Floyd for a moment.  Suppose there is a really bad guy, who indisputedly committed some awful crime, and was incarcerated for it.  And he was so awful that pretty much everybody agrees that he deserved to do time in prison.

After his time was up, he was released.  He was of no danger to anybody, he saw the light and was now a reformed criminal. He was sitting in his car, minding his own business, when a cop who declared himself judge, jury, and executioner, went up to the car and shot him dead.  His defense was that the guy had previously committed some pretty terrible crimes, so what's the big deal?  He deserved to die.

I wonder how many of us would agree with that reasoning?


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jun 13, 2020)

IMO focusing on Mr. Floyd's criminal history is just a diversionary tactic to move the spotlight away from the officers involved in the incident.

I don't know if Mr. Floyd resisted arrest or failed to comply with the requests of the officers at the scene but even if he did he posed no threat to anyone once he was on the ground in handcuffs.

IMO the media portrayal of police brutality or use of excessive force is being overused or used in some cases inappropriately but in this case, I believe it is justified based on what I've seen.


----------



## win231 (Jun 13, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> IMO focusing on Mr. Floyd's criminal history is just a diversionary tactic to move the spotlight away from the officers involved in the incident.
> 
> I don't know if Mr. Floyd resisted arrest or failed to comply with the requests of the officers at the scene but even if he did he posed no threat to anyone once he was on the ground in handcuffs.
> 
> IMO the media portrayal of police brutality or use of excessive force is being overused or used in some cases inappropriately but in this case, I believe it is justified based on what I've seen.


Such diversionary tactics are quite common with people who must defend criminal cops - usually because they have cops in their families.


----------



## peppermint (Jun 13, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Sickening!


I thought "No Politics here".....


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 13, 2020)

In defence of Aunt Marg, I saw no evidence of politics in her post that triggered post #288.
Did I misinterpret her post?


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 13, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, my bad ..... let me change the {I} to {some of us}. Even though the other {some of us} are eerily quiet


I'm quiet because I've found it's pointless to say anything on here. If you disagree with the majority they're gonna latch on like a pitbull and chew you to shreds till you either agree or leave. I agree with several of your posts and that makes me the enemy. Frankly I don't understand the point of arguing over a dead man. It won't bring him back or change anything. But good luck to ya.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> Then why do you argue [your] reality ?
> 
> I saw a few reports on the news, that showed the money.
> 
> ...


I’ve got no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with myself and others about this debate over George Floyd’s murder by police officer(s) but if you are going to debate the topic then proving your points is part of the debating process.

Saying you saw articles showing the ‘alleged’ counterfeit money doesn’t cut it and if you did why wouldn’t you show them to us to prove your point?

If George Floyd resisted arrest, according to you, why not show the sources that led you to this conclusion?

If you believe the police officer used reasonable methods to hold George Floyd while he was being detained, then why not link us with this information that brought you to this conclusion instead of just saying ‘something went wrong.’

That’s how debates work. Even when the opposing sides proved their statements with links and sources, you refused to acknowledge them and just kept repeating your original claims.

I have no problems debating anything with anyone but if people are going to debate then show sources why you believe your facts to be right otherwise it’s just ‘here say.’

You presented NOTHING to support your statements which isn’t debating the subject.
It’s nothing more than  sharing your feelings and opinions. I have no problems accepting that’s how you feel as an opinion but realize that opinions can’t be proved and THIS is a debate about facts which caused his death.








rgp said:


> His criminal history is proof, add that to the fact that he passed 'funny money' , the police were called , and he lost. He is a felon, I believe six times over ..... I don't care.
> 
> Just 'google' his record in Texas.



He didn’t lose. He was murdered. Huge distinction. That’s what the court systems are for! Not over zealous cops or vigilantes.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 14, 2020)

It’s not just a dead man we are debating about.....
It’s a man murdered by the police. Sorry but there’s huge distinction.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 14, 2020)

Warrigal said:


> In defence of Aunt Marg, I saw no evidence of politics in her post that triggered post #288.
> Did I misinterpret her post?


Thank you, Warrigal.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> His criminal history is proof, add that to the fact that he passed 'funny money' , the police were called , and he lost. He is a felon, I believe six times over ..... I don't care.
> 
> Just 'google' his record in Texas.


If I knew your name  I could Google you. If you have any record no matter what for then that would make you eligible to be treated the same as George Floyd was.  Even a speeding ticket can work because it's possible you may speed again and kill an innocent pedestrian or other driver.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’ve got no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with myself and others about this debate over George Floyd’s murder by police officer(s) but if you are going to debate the topic then proving your points is part of the debating process.
> 
> Saying you saw articles showing the ‘alleged’ counterfeit money doesn’t cut it and if you did why wouldn’t you show them to us to prove your point?
> 
> ...




 Exactly ! That's why he should be expected (we) are expected to surrender to the arrest ... and fight it out in court.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Keesha said:


> I’ve got no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with myself and others about this debate over George Floyd’s murder by police officer(s) but if you are going to debate the topic then proving your points is part of the debating process.
> 
> Saying you saw articles showing the ‘alleged’ counterfeit money doesn’t cut it and if you did why wouldn’t you show them to us to prove your point?
> 
> ...




 A: One does not need to prove an opinion.

 B: The counterfeit money was shown on a news broadcast.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 14, 2020)

Yup, that's a brilliant strategy, rgp.  Anyone who ever got a ticket for speeding, jaywalking, parking, or whatever may be arrested (or horribly murdered), because of his past criminal record.  Gee, why didn't I think of that?


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

win231 said:


> Such diversionary tactics are quite common with people who must defend criminal cops - usually because they have cops in their families.




 Your big on the cops in family aspect aren't ya ?..........


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Yup, that's a brilliant strategy, rgp.  Anyone who ever got a ticket for speeding, jaywalking, parking, or whatever may be arrested (or horribly murdered), because of his past criminal record.  Gee, why didn't I think of that?





   It was not his criminal record that got him killed......it was his resistance to the arrest.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Let's look away from Floyd for a moment.  Suppose there is a really bad guy, who indisputedly committed some awful crime, and was incarcerated for it.  And he was so awful that pretty much everybody agrees that he deserved to do time in prison.
> 
> After his time was up, he was released.  He was of no danger to anybody, he saw the light and was now a reformed criminal. He was sitting in his car, minding his own business, when a cop who declared himself judge, jury, and executioner, went up to the car and shot him dead.  His defense was that the guy had previously committed some pretty terrible crimes, so what's the big deal?  He deserved to die.
> 
> I wonder how many of us would agree with that reasoning?




 "
After his time was up, he was released. He was of no danger to anybody, he saw the light and was now a reformed criminal. He was sitting in his car, minding his own business, when a cop who declared himself judge, jury, and executioner, went up to the car and shot him dead. His defense was that the guy had previously committed some pretty terrible crimes, so what's the big deal? He deserved to die."

 That is a scenario that does not even apply to the issue at hand.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> A: One does not need to prove an opinion.
> 
> B: The counterfeit money was shown on a news broadcast.


No but feelings and opinions don’t belong in a debate about facts. Something you earlier pointed out.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 14, 2020)

> It was not his criminal record that got him killed......it was his resistance to the arrest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, it was the fact that a lunatic cop decided to become judge, jury, and executioner, killing a man for no reason at all, and his eager defenders (defender?) are using the counterfeit money story as a diversionary tactic.

The fact is, it doesn't matter whether he had a past criminal record or if he was Mother Theresa.  The cop had no business assaulting and murdering him like that.  See if you can focus on that fact, which is central to this whole argument.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> Exactly ! That's why he should be expected (we) are expected to surrender to the arrest ... and fight it out in court.


So prove your point that he didn’t surrender. That’s how a debate works.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 14, 2020)

It very much applies, rgp, but you don't want to admit it.

Let's go one step further: let's say the guy had just passed counterfeit bills, the evidence was overwhelming.  I have two questions for you.

1.  Do you think anyone who passes counterfeit bills, knowingly or not, should be arrested?  Are you sure you have never unwittingly had a phony bill in your wallet, which you innocently used?  If spotted, should you have been dragged out of your car, assaulted, and murdered?

2. If you feel that arresting Floyd was justified for whatever reason, do you also feel that the actions taken by the police were justified?  Being held down for 9 minutes by an armed cop and gruesomely asphyxiated, while he was begging to be allowed to breathe?  And a group of other armed policemen stood around watching, making no attempt to stop the murder?  Was there no other way to humanely calm this prisoner down and bring him in for questioning? 

In other words, are the police justified in acting like murderous brutes?

Before you tell me that this scenario doesn't apply, which seems to be your go-to strategy when you've backed yourself into a corner, see if you can answer these two questions. I'd be very curious to hear your answer.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> It very much applies, rgp, but you don't want to admit it.
> 
> Let's go one step further: let's say the guy had just passed counterfeit bills, the evidence was overwhelming.  I have two questions for you.
> 
> ...





I'm not going to waste my time debating you non-applicable scenarios.

I am not backed into any corner, I stand by all I have said.

He fought the law & the law won.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> It very much applies, rgp, but you don't want to admit it.
> 
> Let's go one step further: let's say the guy had just passed counterfeit bills, the evidence was overwhelming.  I have two questions for you.
> 
> ...




 It only applies because you want it to.....but you don't want to admit it.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> I'm not going to wast my time debating you non-applicable scenarios.
> 
> I am not backed into any corner, I stand by all I have said.
> 
> *He fought the law & the law won*.


Well that's definitely one closed-minded way of looking at it.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Keesha said:


> So prove your point that he didn’t surrender. That’s how a debate works.




 I trust the police report that says he didn't.


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Well that's definitely one closed-minded way of looking at it.




 And that's one asinine reply.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> And that's one asinine reply.


Because it doesn't play into your ideals?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> I'm not going to wast my time debating you non-applicable scenarios.
> 
> I am not backed into any corner, I stand by all I have said.
> 
> He fought the law & the law won.



What is "non-applicable?"  If you think my first question in note # 304 was too hypothetical, how about answering the second question?  I described exactly what happened, which we all saw on that excruciating video that was broadcast again and again. Are you going to duck that question also, because it requires you to look at the hard truth?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> I trust the police report that says he didn't.


The police report from the charged murderers?
 Yeah ok!


----------



## rgp (Jun 14, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Because it doesn't play into your ideals?




 No, I just think it's asinine..........


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> Exactly ! That's why he should be expected (we) are expected to surrender to the arrest ... and fight it out in court.


Handcuffed the proper way with his hands cuffed behind him. How much more surrendering is there?  Kind of hard to fight it out in court when your dead because a police office kept you face down with a knee on your neck & back until you took your last breath.


----------



## Knight (Jun 14, 2020)

Sunny said:


> It very much applies, rgp, but you don't want to admit it.
> 
> Let's go one step further: let's say the guy had just passed counterfeit bills, the evidence was overwhelming.  I have two questions for you.
> 
> 1.  Do you think anyone who passes counterfeit bills, knowingly or not, should be arrested?  Are you sure you have never unwittingly had a phony bill in your wallet, which you innocently used?  If spotted, should you have been dragged out of your car, assaulted, and murdered?


It would be nice if RGP could see. He must be blind because two videos show what took place

The 5 minute video showing another male in the front seat with the passenger door open  doesn't seem like Floyd was in a hurry to leave.  I think it's reasonable to expect a person that knowingly just passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill to leave quickly. Clear is two officers come over got two people out of the car, Floyd doesn't run. Floyd gets out of the car, is handcuffed and is seen sitting against a wall.

Next video Floyd is on the ground begging for his life.

I'd bet both will be used in court proceedings.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 14, 2020)

@rgp see what I mean?


----------



## win231 (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> Your big on the cops in family aspect aren't ya ?..........


Yes.  It's usually the reason why people will defend any cop's actions, regardless of how it makes them look.
And, by the way, it's "_You're_ big on the cops-in-family aspect."
Would you happen to be a retired cop?


----------



## win231 (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> I'm not going to wast my time debating you non-applicable scenarios.
> 
> I am not backed into any corner, I stand by all I have said.
> 
> He fought the law & the law won.


When did you retire from police work?  You certainly spell like a cop.


----------



## Nozzle36 (Jun 14, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.


The last I heard passing a counterfeit bill is not a capital offense


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 14, 2020)

Save your breath, Nozzle. That point has been made many times, to no effect.


----------



## rgp (Jun 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> Yes.  It's usually the reason why people will defend any cop's actions, regardless of how it makes them look.
> And, by the way, it's "_You're_ big on the cops-in-family aspect."
> Would you happen to be a retired cop?



 No.


----------



## rgp (Jun 15, 2020)

Sunny said:


> What is "non-applicable?"  If you think my first question in note # 304 was too hypothetical, how about answering the second question?  I described exactly what happened, which we all saw on that excruciating video that was broadcast again and again. Are you going to duck that question also, because it requires you to look at the hard truth?




 The hard truth is simply ........he engaged with police several times over his criminal career , and finally he lost.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 15, 2020)

rgp said:


> The hard truth is simply ........he engaged with police several times over his criminal career , *and finally he lost*.


Finish off the "hard truth" for us... he finally lost because?


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2020)

rgp said:


> No.


Are you posting contrary to what others have seen on two videos  to agitate & to provoke a response? By that I mean are you entertaining yourself in this thread by posting the ridiculous position that George Floyd had a prior history of criminal activity so he deserved to die by asphyxiation?


----------



## rgp (Jun 15, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Finish off the "hard truth" for us... he finally lost because?




 Do I really need to explain it ?


----------



## Ronni (Jun 15, 2020)

Y’all, RGP wants to be engaged with which is why he keeps baiting you, so that you will respond. Every time you do, he got what he wanted (conversation) and so then he turns around and offers something else.....a question, a deflection, a dig...something, ANYTHING to keep the conversation going.

More than winning the argument, more than proving a point, more even than being right, he just wants to be engaged with. As long as you keep engaging he’ll keep the conversation going. You simply will not get ANY agreement with any of the very compelling points you’ve raise because that’s not RGP’s focus. He’s not really interested in enlightenment. He just doesn’t want you to go away and you will if there’s nothing more to fight about!!

Even making this statement will give him something else to focus on and be able to use to keep the conversation going.


----------



## Knight (Jun 15, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y’all, RGP wants to be engaged with which is why he keeps baiting you, so that you will respond. Every time you do, he got what he wanted (conversation) and so then he turns around and offers something else.....a question, a deflection, a dig...something, ANYTHING to keep the conversation going.
> 
> More than winning the argument, more than proving a point, more even than being right, he just wants to be engaged with. As long as you keep engaging he’ll keep the conversation going. You simply will not get ANY agreement with any of the very compelling points you’ve raise because that’s not RGP’s focus. He’s not really interested in enlightenment. He just doesn’t want you to go away and you will if there’s nothing more to fight about!!
> 
> Even making this statement will give him something else to focus on and be able to use to keep the conversation going.


I think were on the same page concerning RGP's need to have responses to his ridiculous position. I'm done with responding to him.


----------



## RadishRose (Jun 15, 2020)

You're absolutely right, Ronni. That's why I've seldom paid attention or responded.


----------



## Sassycakes (Jun 15, 2020)

*To @rgp First of all I have a great deal of respect for Police Officers and that they put their lives on line to protect us, but in this case I don't think the Police operated in the correct way. Floyd was in handcuffs with many Policemen around him. It was not necessary in anyway to kneel on his neck. I can't believe with the amount of officers around him they could just as easily picked him up and put in  Police car and driven him to jail. He did not need to receive the kneeling on his neck until he died. How would you react if something like that happened to someone in your family.*


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jun 15, 2020)

Why the need to pile on?

I usually understand the point RGP makes with his posts and I usually agree with some of it or at least understand how he arrived at his conclusion.

In many of the incidents involving police brutality, one fact comes up time after time and that is a persons refusal to comply with a lawful request which results in an escalation that often ends badly for everyone involved.

In the most recent incident where Rayshard Brooks was killed by Atlanta police, the initial contact seemed to go smoothly until the police attempted to take him into custody.  IMO if Mr. Brooks had complied with the request he would still be alive to argue his case in court.  I'm not saying that I agree with the police shooting him and killing him.  I believe that the situation could have and should have been resolved without firing a weapon.  What I am saying is that work needs to be done to improve both the police response and the public response when we engage with law enforcement.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 15, 2020)

win231 said:


> Something to think about:
> Here are some arrests of murderers and mass murderers:  (_no comparison to a counterfeit cash suspect who was innocent until proven guilty.)_
> Charles Manson & several of his followers
> Brenda Spencer (Killed 2 elementary school students)
> ...


EXACTLY Win! Don't forget 
~James E Holmes, mass murderer who killed 12 people and wounded 58 others in the Colorado theater in 2012.
~"Son of Sam" killer David Berkowitz who in 1976 murdered 8 people at separate times. He was taken into custody without incident.
~Nicolas Cruz who killed 17 people and wounded 17 others in his school in Florida after he was expelled. He was arrested with incident.


----------



## win231 (Jun 15, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> Why the need to pile on?
> 
> I usually understand the point RGP makes with his posts and I usually agree with some of it or at least understand how he arrived at his conclusion.
> 
> ...


True, BUT the Derek Chauvins of the world cause concern about what police officers may do after a suspect is handcuffed _*and helpless.*_


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 15, 2020)

rgp said:


> Do I really need to explain it ?


Not if it contains more of your one-sided, nonsensical prate.


----------



## rgp (Jun 15, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y’all, RGP wants to be engaged with which is why he keeps baiting you, so that you will respond. Every time you do, he got what he wanted (conversation) and so then he turns around and offers something else.....a question, a deflection, a dig...something, ANYTHING to keep the conversation going.
> 
> More than winning the argument, more than proving a point, more even than being right, he just wants to be engaged with. As long as you keep engaging he’ll keep the conversation going. You simply will not get ANY agreement with any of the very compelling points you’ve raise because that’s not RGP’s focus. He’s not really interested in enlightenment. He just doesn’t want you to go away and you will if there’s nothing more to fight about!!
> 
> Even making this statement will give him something else to focus on and be able to use to keep the conversation going.




 So you too ?...... expect me to just at some point stop, accept the other responder's as the end of discussion? As long as i feel i am correct .... that will never happen.

Then you put that little 'ditty' at the end , and expect me not to respond ?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 15, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> Why the need to pile on?
> 
> I usually understand the point RGP makes with his posts and I usually agree with some of it or at least understand how he arrived at his conclusion.
> 
> ...



Aunt Bea, this is what is known as blaming the victim.  

Yes, a wise, mature person with better judgement would know it is just common sense to comply with police requests. But when people argue, struggle, fail to comply, etc.  there is absolutely no excuse for law enforcement professionals to decide to execute them.


----------



## Ronni (Jun 15, 2020)

rgp said:


> So you too ?...... expect me to just at some point stop, accept the other responder's as the end of discussion? As long as i feel i am correct .... that will never happen.
> 
> Then you put that little 'ditty' at the end , and expect me not to respond ?


See?


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 16, 2020)




----------



## Butterfly (Jun 17, 2020)

In the case of Mr. Brooks, the Atlanta mayor said the police should have just let him go and just gone around to his house and picked him up there.  They had his name and address from his license.   That would have saved Mr. Brooks' life, the officers' jobs, and a lot of money and hassle for the police department and the city, not to mention that the Wendy's wouldn't probably have been burned down.  But no, the cops had to shoot him in the back.  For what purpose?  He was a (probably) drunk guy, on foot, carrying the officer's taser, which isn't even considered a deadly weapon by the Atlanta PD.  But they had to shoot him in the back.


----------



## C'est Moi (Jun 17, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> *Why the need to pile on?*
> 
> I usually understand the point RGP makes with his posts and I usually agree with some of it or at least understand how he arrived at his conclusion.
> 
> ...


Thank you.   Sensible as always.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 17, 2020)




----------



## rgp (Jun 17, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> In the case of Mr. Brooks, the Atlanta mayor said the police should have just let him go and just gone around to his house and picked him up there.  They had his name and address from his license.   That would have saved Mr. Brooks' life, the officers' jobs, and a lot of money and hassle for the police department and the city, not to mention that the Wendy's wouldn't probably have been burned down.  But no, the cops had to shoot him in the back.  For what purpose?  He was a (probably) drunk guy, on foot, carrying the officer's taser, which isn't even considered a deadly weapon by the Atlanta PD.  But they had to shoot him in the back.




  Oh yeah sure .... send that message to the criminal element. Just fight back, run if ya can, and the police will just let ya go ........ Bad message.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 17, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> In the case of Mr. Brooks, the Atlanta mayor said the police should have just let him go and just gone around to his house and picked him up there.  They had his name and address from his license.   That would have saved Mr. Brooks' life, the officers' jobs, and a lot of money and hassle for the police department and the city, not to mention that the Wendy's wouldn't probably have been burned down.  But no, the cops had to shoot him in the back.  For what purpose?  He was a (probably) drunk guy, on foot, carrying the officer's taser, which isn't even considered a deadly weapon by the Atlanta PD.  *But they had to shoot him in the back*.


Takes a real hero to shoot someone in the back. With cops like that, who needs enemies.


----------



## rgp (Jun 17, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Takes a real hero to shoot someone in the back. With cops like that, who needs enemies.




 Then they [the suspect] should comply with the arrest........in that case they'll likely not get shot at all.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 17, 2020)

Boy, Ronni was right on the button in post #326!  (Others have written basically the same point.)  This has nothing to do with police murdering people for minor offenses, or no offenses at all.  It is 100% about rgp getting in some obnoxious last word, over and over again, except it really isn't a last word. He seems to be terrified of having any exchange end, so he keeps baiting and baiting.  

Stay tuned. You'll see him back here very soon.


----------



## rgp (Jun 17, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Boy, Ronni was right on the button in post #326!  (Others have written basically the same point.)  This has nothing to do with police murdering people for minor offenses, or no offenses at all.  It is 100% about rgp getting in some obnoxious last word, over and over again, except it really isn't a last word. He seems to be terrified of having any exchange end, so he keeps baiting and baiting.
> 
> Stay tuned. You'll see him back here very soon.




 And yet here you are ...... making derogatory remarks about me ..... and yet you accuse me of baiting ?..


----------



## Keesha (Jun 17, 2020)

rgp said:


> Then they [the suspect] should comply with the arrest........in that case they'll likely not get shot at all.


No. They could have their throat kneeled on until they suffocate instead.


----------



## 911 (Jun 17, 2020)

I am really having issues with the Taser issues that have come forth. When we first received our Tasers, I volunteered to be Tasered in front of 27 fellow Troopers. After I had my physical and heart tested via having a heart catheterization performed and a doctor and ambulance standing by, I was Tasered with only 30,000 of the potential 50,000 volts available. For about 30-45 seconds, I was frozen in time. Not cold, but unable to move. 

We later spoke with 2 different higher ups at the Axon Corporation, which manufactured our Tasers and 1 said yes, it was a lethal weapon and the other told us that Tasers are not a deadly weapon. I still don’t comprehend the difference.


----------



## win231 (Jun 17, 2020)

Both cops have been charged with murder.  Some relevant details:  The suspect was kicked & one officer stood on him as he lay dying.  Also did not call paramedics as required.  

As Rayshard Brooks lay dying in a Wendy's parking lot — shot twice in the back — Atlanta police officers kicked him and stood on his body, according to Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard.
Even if someone considers the shooting justified, how could anyone justify making sure the suspect dies?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...elony-murder/ar-BB15CkiF?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


----------



## rgp (Jun 17, 2020)

Keesha said:


> No. They could have their throat kneeled on until they suffocate instead.




 So what ? they [the police] should just let all the suspects go ?


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 17, 2020)

win231 said:


> *Both cops have been charged with murder*.  Some relevant details:  The suspect was kicked & one officer stood on him as he lay dying.
> Even if someone considers the shooting justified, how could anyone justify making sure the suspect dies?
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...elony-murder/ar-BB15CkiF?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


Good!


----------



## grahamg (Jun 17, 2020)

rgp said:


> So what ? they [the police] should just let all the suspects go ?


In the days when apprehending lawbreakers running away might mean the posse never caught up with them, or were less likely to because they didn't have their pictures, DNA etc to follow up on, shooting dead those suspected of crime who are fleeing had a stronger rationale don't you think?
It reminds me of the TV series "The fugitive" evading arrest, (of course all fictional, but didn't the runaway eventually get proved to be innocent of murdering his wife, or whatever it was?). Some who flee may be innocent, and have no sensible reason for doing so, but wouldn't law enforcement sometimes be served by picking the runaway up later, or should the police always assume the suspect to be a danger if not shot right then, (accepting more might run if fear of running was diminished somewhat by not killing them all)?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 17, 2020)

rgp said:


> So what ? they [the police] should just let all the suspects go ?


Are you suggesting there’s nothing between letting them go and choking them to death?


----------



## grahamg (Jun 17, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Are you suggesting there’s nothing between letting them go and choking them to death?


I wonder which one...........(might get a response, both?)?   .


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 18, 2020)

911 said:


> I am really having issues with the Taser issues that have come forth. When we first received our Tasers, I volunteered to be Tasered in front of 27 fellow Troopers. After I had my physical and heart tested via having a heart catheterization performed and a doctor and ambulance standing by, I was Tasered with only 30,000 of the potential 50,000 volts available. For about 30-45 seconds, I was frozen in time. Not cold, but unable to move.
> 
> We later spoke with 2 different higher ups at the Axon Corporation, which manufactured our Tasers and 1 said yes, it was a lethal weapon and the other told us that Tasers are not a deadly weapon. I still don’t comprehend the difference.



I think in the context we are talking about, it was a legal construct.  From what I've read (and I can't remember where, so no cite) the police force in Atlanta has taken the position in a court case that use of a taser is not deadly force,  nor is it a lethal weapon.  So therefore they can't now take the position that the taser aimed at the cop was a lethal weapon that required deadly force in response.  I'll have to see if I can find again where I read that. It just stuck in my mind because it's a "can't have it both ways" thing.


----------



## rgp (Jun 18, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Are you suggesting there’s nothing between letting them go and choking them to death?




  I'm not suggesting anything, only saying that once the suspect challenges the arrest [tries to escape] .... all bets are off. Things can & obviously do, go bad quickly.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 18, 2020)

rgp said:


> I'm not suggesting anything, only saying that once the suspect challenges the arrest [tries to escape] .... all bets are off. Things can & obviously do, go bad quickly.


What bets? I don’t think any bets are made.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 18, 2020)

Keesha said:


> What bets? I don’t think any bets are made.


I thought I'd had a bet whose post might elicit a response, but if you don't want you're winnings so be it(?).   .


----------



## 911 (Jun 18, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I think in the context we are talking about, it was a legal construct.  From what I've read (and I can't remember where, so no cite) the police force in Atlanta has taken the position in a court case that use of a taser is not deadly force,  nor is it a lethal weapon.  So therefore they can't now take the position that the taser aimed at the cop was a lethal weapon that required deadly force in response.  I'll have to see if I can find again where I read that. It just stuck in my mind because it's a "can't have it both ways" thing.


That may be, but in this instance, if the defense would call the company spokesperson to the stand and he testified that the Taser is a lethal or deadly weapon, would that not put  "reasonable doubt" into the mind's of the jurors? Opinion? 

I slightly remember that when I was struck with 30,000 volts, the doctor that examined me (the exam was videoed) asked me what day it was and I didn't know. He then asked me my name and I only repeated my last name. It took me 12 minutes until I could speak coherently.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 18, 2020)

rgp said:


> I'm not suggesting anything, only saying that once the suspect challenges the arrest [tries to escape] .... all bets are off. Things can & obviously do, go bad quickly.


Can someone explain why my questions above are not thought worthy of a reply, (top of page)?
Here is a quick reprise:
1). Posse chasing bad guy, no chance of picking him up later, (as no DNA, or photos), more reasonable to shoot guy in those days than now?
2). Someone who flees from police might be innocent, just behaving stupidly. Should police always assume they're a danger if they're not shot there and then, (maybe to deter others running away?)?
These questions are open to anyone, but especially anyone content with things as they are now.   .


----------



## rgp (Jun 18, 2020)

Keesha said:


> What bets? I don’t think any bets are made.



 More asinine comment.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 18, 2020)

win231 said:


> Would you happen to be a retired cop?


He said in another thread that he wasn’t a police officer but did work in a police station in the office behind a desk so maybe a cop secretary?


----------



## win231 (Jun 18, 2020)

Keesha said:


> He said in another thread that he wasn’t a police officer but did work in a police station in the office behind a desk so maybe a cop secretary?


We can't verify anything in a post.  Usually when someone supports everything a cop does--including murder--it's because they are either a cop or they have cops in their families.
It's rather amusing sometimes - someone else on this forum answered that question with_ "None of your damn business." _ He didn't realize that his angry answer was a resounding "*YES."*


----------



## Keesha (Jun 18, 2020)

win231 said:


> We can't verify anything in a post.  Usually when someone supports everything a cop does--including murder--it's because they are either a cop or they have cops in their families.
> It's rather amusing sometimes - someone else on this forum answered that question with_ "None of your damn business." _ He didn't realize that his angry answer was a resounding "*YES."*


Maybe. Who knows why people hold certain attitudes and where it all comes from.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 18, 2020)

rgp said:


> More asinine comment.


I give up, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!".  .


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

Keesha said:


> He said in another thread that he wasn’t a police officer but did work in a police station in the office behind a desk so maybe a cop secretary?




 Who exactly said that ? I must have missed it.

 And BTW, if you're talking about me ? You're speaking more lies. As it is not so.


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

win231 said:


> We can't verify anything in a post.  Usually when someone supports everything a cop does--including murder--it's because they are either a cop or they have cops in their families.
> It's rather amusing sometimes - someone else on this forum answered that question with_ "None of your damn business." _ He didn't realize that his angry answer was a resounding "*YES."*




 Usually when someone supports criminals, it's usually because they themselves have a criminal history, or someone in their family does.


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I give up, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!".  .




 Right back at'cha.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> Right back at'cha.


Maybe, but no answer, or attempts at answer to my mildly interesting questions earlier(?). Not intressin nuf fur ya?    .


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Maybe, but no answer, or attempts at answer to my mildly interesting questions earlier(?). Not intressin nuf fur ya?    .




 I thought / felt she directed an asinine comment my way. How does leading a horse to water even fit in here ? Unless of course you feel, {I} attempted to lead said horse to water .....  and she failed to follow ?


----------



## win231 (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> Usually when someone supports criminals, it's usually because they themselves have a criminal history, or someone in their family does.


Ya got me there.  Just go to any post office & look for my photo.  In fact, it's the same one in my avatar.
I'm still free.  I can't believe the police are so dumb.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> I thought / felt she directed an asinine comment my way. How does leading a horse to water even fit in here ? Unless of course you feel, {I} attempted to lead said horse to water .....  and she failed to follow ?


Ah, misunderstanding, (my fault).   .
I thought my twice repeated questions were sufficiently similar to the one you responded to, with slight nuances, you'd ignored them for this or other unknown reasons, hence the "leading a horse to water....", comment, when you ignored them a second time.   .


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Ah, misunderstanding, (my fault).   .
> I thought my twice repeated questions were sufficiently similar to the one you responded to, with slight nuances, you'd ignored them for this or other unknown reasons, hence the "leading a horse to water....", comment, when you ignored them a second time.   .




 OK, now my bad .... as I have no idea what you are speaking of ?


----------



## Keesha (Jun 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Ah, misunderstanding, (my fault).   .
> I thought my twice repeated questions were sufficiently similar to the one you responded to, with slight nuances, you'd ignored them for this or other unknown reasons, hence the "leading a horse to water....", comment, when you ignored them a second time.   .


Of course it’s ‘your’ fault. lol


----------



## grahamg (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, now my bad .... as I have no idea what you are speaking of ?


These questions, (is my English no longer English when its crossed over the Atlantic I wonder    ?):
Here is a quick reprise:
1). Posse chasing bad guy, no chance of picking him up later, (as no DNA, or photos), more reasonable to shoot guy in those days than now?
2). Someone who flees from police might be innocent, just behaving stupidly. Should police always assume they're a danger to the public or the police themselves, if they're not shot there and then, (maybe shot to deter others running away I know, so is this good enough cause to die nowadays?)?
These questions are open to anyone, but especially anyone content with things as they are now."


----------



## rgp (Jun 19, 2020)

grahamg said:


> These questions, (is my English no longer English when its crossed over the Atlantic I wonder    ?):
> Here is a quick reprise:
> 1). Posse chasing bad guy, no chance of picking him up later, (as no DNA, or photos), more reasonable to shoot guy in those days than now?
> 2). Someone who flees from police might be innocent, just behaving stupidly. Should police always assume they're a danger to the public or the police themselves, if they're not shot there and then, (maybe shot to deter others running away I know, so is this good enough cause to die nowadays?)?
> These questions are open to anyone, but especially anyone content with things as they are now."




 OK, I can answer both in one simple reply. When encountered by police in a criminal suspicion situation .... arrest coming. We are expected to comply with the commands of the officer (s) . If the suspect does not . Anything can happen. And often times it does not go well for the suspect. I'm good with that.

IMO, that is indeed the message we need to send. Disobeying the police, trying to escape , will likely go bad for criminals........I recommend not doing it.

I have no use for the criminal element in our society , they are our "in close" enemy , the police are our protection from them.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 19, 2020)

And what happens  if the apparent suspect DOES comply completely with the police? What happens when after complying with the police, the suspect is detained with needless force by three officers and they kill him? What happens when the police report doesn’t match the endless videos that prove otherwise? What happens when the police don’t follow proper procedure and the subject dies after stating  that they can’t breathe 15 times?

I’ll tell you what happens. The suspects not following police procedure get fired, since they aren’t worthy of the role and get charged with murder!!!

Yes some will bend these facts to suite their own agenda since they have their own axe to grind but luckily they aren’t the professionals in charge.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> Usually when someone supports criminals, it's usually because they themselves have a criminal history, or someone in their family does.



I do not support criminals, far from it, but I do not believe that a criminal record or the color of your skin entitles police to murder you on the spot at their whim.


----------



## Pepper (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> Usually when someone supports criminals, it's usually because they themselves have a criminal history, or someone in their family does.


Can you prove that assertion, please?  It sounds like an opinion.  Thank you.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 19, 2020)

rgp said:


> OK, I can answer both in one simple reply. When encountered by police in a criminal suspicion situation .... arrest coming. We are expected to comply with the commands of the officer (s) . If the suspect does not . Anything can happen. And often times it does not go well for the suspect. I'm good with that. IMO, that is indeed the message we need to send. Disobeying the police, trying to escape , will likely go bad for criminals........I recommend not doing it. I have no use for the criminal element in our society , they are our "in close" enemy , the police are our protection from them.


Obviously suspects should be expected to comply with the police when being arrested, but you favour a shoot to kill policy in all circumstances then, regardless of the fact DNA evidence, and photographic evidence means suspects running away can more easily be picked up than in times gone by, some time later?
We all rely upon the police to protect us, but rules of engagement when the police do their very difficult job is what is being discussed here, and most everywhere, and all the police should kill in your view, should a suspect resist or attempt to run away?
In WWII the criminal element in Britain were offered the option of remaining in jail, or fighting for their country, and some chose to fight, and demonstrate their usefulness to society very clearly.


----------



## win231 (Jun 19, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I do not support criminals, far from it, but I do not believe that a criminal record or the color of your skin entitles police to murder you on the spot at their whim.


No one in their right mind would.


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

Pepper said:


> Can you prove that assertion, please?  It sounds like an opinion.  Thank you.




 No more of an assertion, than those posted by win231


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

Keesha said:


> And what happens  if the apparent suspect DOES comply completely with the police? What happens when after complying with the police, the suspect is detained with needless force by three officers and they kill him? What happens when the police report doesn’t match the endless videos that prove otherwise? What happens when the police don’t follow proper procedure and the subject dies after stating  that they can’t breathe 15 times?
> 
> I’ll tell you what happens. The suspects not following police procedure get fired, since they aren’t worthy of the role and get charged with murder!!!
> 
> Yes some will bend these facts to suite their own agenda since they have their own axe to grind but luckily they aren’t the professionals in charge.





"I’ll tell you what happens. The suspects not following police procedure get fired, since they aren’t worthy of the role and get charged with murder!!!"

    That doesn't even make sense ..........*suspects not following police procedure get fired ?*


----------



## Sunny (Jun 20, 2020)

rgp said:


> Usually when someone supports criminals, it's usually because they themselves have a criminal history, or someone in their family does.



 Supporting human rights = "Supporting criminals,"  eh?


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Supporting human rights = "Supporting criminals,"  eh?




 In these cases ? ....... Yes.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 20, 2020)

rgp said:


> "I’ll tell you what happens. The suspects not following police procedure get fired, since they aren’t worthy of the role and get charged with murder!!!"
> 
> That doesn't even make sense ..........*suspects not following police procedure get fired ?*


Yes as in what happened in this George Floyd incident. These police officers not following police procedure got fired because they took the law into their own hands and murdered the man which is WHY they got charged with murder.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 20, 2020)

rgp said:


> In these cases ? ....... Yes.


Which ones? Does it include the ones who murder? Murder is a crime after all. It’s a bigger crime  than than getting charged with ‘allegedly’ using counterfeit money...... which is why they were charged.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Supporting human rights = "Supporting criminals,"  eh?


Maybe the human rights of former police officers could be respected, even when they have the label correctly attached to them of "criminal", should a court convict them(?).    .
I've sympathy even for the officer accused of murdering George Floyd, because he's a human being, probably with a clean record until this event, and because feeling no sympathy at all for anyone suspected of as crime, who ends up losing their !life, where there was viable alternative action the police could have taken, seems an unnecessarily polarised position to take.
There is one thing about having " devils advocate" arguments being put forward, it prompts more discussion doesn't it.   .


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 20, 2020)

I haven't contributed to this thread
and it was on purpose

Yes, a bad cop killed a man
a black man

Yes, that kinda stuff has to stop

But, how folks have handled this tragedy is obscene
It's gone from protests to something very wrong

A criminal element has taken over

I'm embarrassed for our nation

I've been embarrassed for young black America for quite some time now

Opportunity is rife here

Try finding the same opportunity anywhere else in the world.
If you are born in America you’ve won life’s economic lottery. Take advantage of it.

The problem is this generation has been taught to be a victim, and it’s still going on.

I'm not talking just blacks

I don't give a good goddamn what color you are

Quit sticking yer hand out and contribute, not just take

Get these bad cops put away

But do it right

As far as *Black Lives Matter*....every life matters


----------



## StarSong (Jun 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> Opportunity is rife here
> 
> Try finding the same opportunity anywhere else in the world.
> If you are born in America you’ve won life’s economic lottery. Take advantage of it.


All true.  If you were born white, that is.


----------



## Gary O' (Jun 20, 2020)

StarSong said:


> All true. If you were born white, that is.


There was a time
Now?
Shoot, all my friends make more money than me, and have zero race issues
Oh, and they're Afro, Asian, Mexi
Heh, I have more friends of a different color than I do white

But, yeah, there was a time...certainly was

I s'pose big cities are different
I do hate big cities


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Yes as in what happened in this George Floyd incident. These police officers not following police procedure got fired because they took the law into their own hands and murdered the man which is WHY they got charged with murder.




 I still do not follow the "suspects" not following police _procedure_ ? "Suspects" are supposed to follow police _commands_.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 20, 2020)

StarSong said:


> All true.  If you were born white, that is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that available anywhere as a print/poster/etc.????


----------



## Aunt Bea (Jun 20, 2020)

Gary O' said:


> I haven't contributed to this thread
> and it was on purpose
> 
> Yes, a bad cop killed a man
> ...


I agree that we can remove obstacles and create opportunities for all Americans but it will always be up to the individual to seize those opportunities and do the work to make a life for themselves.

I have been watching the different politicians speak about what is needed and it has started me wondering why some individuals seem to be able to use what is available to them and thrive while others are unable to put the pieces together to create a life for themselves.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 20, 2020)

rgp said:


> I still do not follow the "suspects" not following police _procedure_ ? "Suspects" are supposed to follow police _commands_.


The suspects WERE the police officers which AGAIN is why THEY were arrested.

You understand this perfectly well but are just messing with us all because you don’t like the outcome but that’s REALITY!


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 20, 2020)

Aunt Bea said:


> I agree that we can remove obstacles and create opportunities for all Americans but it will always be up to the individual to seize those opportunities and do the work to make a life for themselves.
> 
> I have been watching the different politicians speak about what is needed and it has started me wondering why some individuals seem to be able to use what is available to them and thrive while others are unable to put the pieces together to create a life for themselves.


But not many young people will stay in school and go for honest work when parents and others of influence take dropping out, selling drugs, etc. as no big deal.


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

StarSong said:


> All true.  If you were born white, that is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 There might have been a time when that was true ? Matter of fact I'm sure it was but ...........

 I was born in 1949, and I do not believe we {I} had any advantage that was not available to a black guy born the same year. I attended a school [high school] that had a huge black contingent. If he did not take advantage of the opportunities available ? That's on him, and i feel no sympathy for him.

I was raised in a single parent household [mom]. My mother was involved in a very serious car crash , I had to quit school to help pay bills. She got back on her feet , I continued high school at night, graduated. Sought out some targeted training , got a job ......... Fast forward ....... I am now retired, financially comfortable , never committed a crime in my life.

No reason in hell why a black guy could not have done the same......Many here keep saying skin color doesn't matter/shouldn't matter ............ Why doesn't that cry apply here the same?


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

Keesha said:


> The suspects WERE the police officers which AGAIN is why THEY were arrested.
> 
> You understand this perfectly well but are just messing with us all because you don’t like the outcome but that’s REALITY!




 I'm so glad you seem to think ................ you know me better than I know me. 

In the beginning , the 'only' suspect was Floyd....you jumped to naming the officers as suspects . 

You always seem to think I am playing some game here ? ....... I am not ! I am serious about every aspect , and serious about every word i type.


----------



## Been There (Jun 20, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> But not many young people will stay in school and go for honest work when parents and others of influence take dropping out, selling drugs, etc. as no big deal.


A lot of inner city schools are failing for a few reasons. One is they cannot recruit the better teachers. They do not want to teach at inner city schools because many of the students are disruptive and have behavioral problems. Most inner city schools receive more money than urban schools, but they must qualify by their student rankings, which they have failed to do. More money would provide a better education through purchasing modern books and technology tools, like computers. They could also pay their teachers more money, but because of the reasons stated, they will not come into the cities.

The majority of inner city black kids come from single family homes. No guidance, no discipline equals a poor education. Compare that to many of the former DACA kids now being professionals. Inner city blight produces gang-bangers and drug dealers. Gangs also run rampant.

As we watch what’s going on now with Black Lives Matter and all the money being thrown their way, it’s not going to produce better opportunities for young blacks. Where are those millions of dollars going? Anyone know? 





.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2020)

Keesha said:


> The suspects WERE the police officers which AGAIN is why THEY were arrested. You understand this perfectly well but are just messing with us all because you don’t like the outcome but that’s REALITY!





rgp said:


> I'm so glad you seem to think ................ you know me better than I know me. In the beginning , the 'only' suspect was Floyd....you jumped to naming the officers as suspects . You always seem to think I am playing some game here ? ....... I am not ! I am serious about every aspect , and serious about every word i type.


You make no concession as far as anyone having a poorer start in life than yourself, maybe not so smart, maybe hit mental health issues, no way anyones life held back by racial prejudice you think, (don't let me put any words in your mouth, I'm not claiming to know you!?)? Did you hold these views all your life, whilst the civil rights movement was at its height, and an icon like Dr. MLK was assassinated, (another criminal you think, he spent time in jail didn't he, held in so!itary confinement?)?


----------



## rgp (Jun 20, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You make no concession as far as anyone having a poorer start in life than yourself, maybe not so smart, maybe hit mental health issues, no way anyones life held back by racial prejudice you think, (don't let me put any words in your mouth, I'm not claiming to know you!?)? Did you hold these views all your life, whilst the civil rights movement was at its height, and an icon like Dr. MLK was assassinated, (another criminal you think, he spent time in jail didn't he, held in so!itary confinement?)?




 I worked with guys that marched with King ....they say he wasn't the angel so many think that he was.

 I didn't know him, he was in his prime & killed when I was just a teen/young man. So I won't say anymore but, these men really opened my eyes [& others] about him.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2020)

rgp said:


> I worked with guys that marched with King ....they say he wasn't the angel so many think that he was.
> I didn't know him, he was in his prime & killed when I was just a teen/young man. So I won't say anymore but, these men really opened my eyes [& others] about him.


You prefer anecdotes about a man, rather than read his autobiography, and discover how during fifteen days in solitary confinement he wrote his response to fellow ordained ministers criticising his campaign of none violent protest, and whilst explaining where they were failing to understand him, he did all that was possible to keep them as his friends. Your words about MLK, echo comments I'm listening to tonight as James Baldwin, who you may have heard of, (I hadn't), narrates the experiences he'd had in 1950s/1960s USA, and do you know, he seemed to understand those who may have been just like the stereotype you seem to me to be displaying. Listening to folks who say they knew another MLK assuages you from any responsibility for seeing him as a human being. Don't say anymore about him, as "that rabbit I won't chase for you".
BTW have you held these same views all your !life, or is that " classified information?".   .


----------



## Been There (Jun 20, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You prefer anecdotes about a man, rather than read his autobiography, and discover how during fifteen days in solitary confinement he wrote his response to fellow ordained ministers criticising his campaign of none violent protest, and whilst explaining where they were failing to understand him, he did all that was possible to keep them as his friends. Your words about MLK, echo comments I'm listening to tonight as James Baldwin, who you may have heard of, (I hadn't), narrates the experiences he'd had in 1950s/1960s USA, and do you know, he seemed to understand those who may have been just like the stereotype you seem to me to be displaying. Listening to folks who say they knew another MLK assuages you from any responsibility for seeing him as a human being. Don't say anymore about him, as "that rabbit I won't chase for you".
> BTW have you held these same views all your !life, or is that " classified information?".   .


That’s all well and good, but don’t ever try to convince me on any other person that MLK never was in favor of riots. Later in life, after his “I Have A Dream” speech, and in a packed high school auditorium in Detroit, he said, “...It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear?…It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.”

To me, these words are profound and if I had to make a point to it, I would tell you and anyone else that “Our chickens have come home to roost.”


----------



## Sunny (Jun 20, 2020)

Interesting quote, Been There.  I don't think that MLK was in favor of riots; all I have ever heard about him his whole life was anti-violence. I think what he was saying here is that when people are stuck in intolerable living conditions, with no other hope of improvement , they are driven to violent behavior out of desperation.  That isn't supporting the violence; it's just ruefully explaining why people are driven to it.  He thought that was a tragic thing, not a thing that he was promoting.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Interesting quote, Been There.  I don't think that MLK was in favor of riots; all I have ever heard about him his whole life was anti-violence. I think what he was saying here is that when people are stuck in intolerable living conditions, with no other hope of improvement , they are driven to violent behavior out of desperation.  That isn't supporting the violence; it's just ruefully explaining why people are driven to it.  He thought that was a tragic thing, not a thing that he was promoting.


Criticised by Malcolm X as being like churchmen centuries earlier telling people to turn the other cheek, he defended his groups campaign using nonviolent direct action, saying it did not mean those supporters facing police dogs, baton charges and the like whilst maintaining their will not to respond with violence, were not "uncle Toms", (he covers this in his autobiography too). Now when challenged over whether he would condemn strikers, or as you say maybe even those driven to violence by despair, he did perhaps move his position, (he'd faced quite a bit of violence himself by then, including a bomb going off in the front of his house, whilst his family were at home).

However not condemning something is not advocating violence, especially coming from someone the authorities tried to break, but who continued to advocate nonviolent action. He said many profound things as we all know, and one interesting one was when challenged as to whether " he wished to see the law upheld"? His response "that to challenge unjust laws was to show the utmost respect for justice" was profound wasn't it, and so many of these great thoughts were inspired by things he read or understood from the bible, (for all those with a jaundiced view of religion/the bible).

My question above to the first to criticise MLK on the basis of anecdotes from people who say they'd met him, shows just the level of debate those civil rights leaders, knew they would experience, and did experience over and over again, ("those who cannot see" comes to mind to use another biblical reference), but all this objecting to MLK on spurious grounds is exactly the childish behaviour to expect. If any man or woman had half his guts they'd be brave people in my view, but forget that, we know we won't see any let up, and straight forward questions like, "Have you always thought like this?" will continue to be ducked, because living up to reality isn't a strong point being displayed as those civil rights leaders knew so well.


----------



## rgp (Jun 21, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You prefer anecdotes about a man, rather than read his autobiography, and discover how during fifteen days in solitary confinement he wrote his response to fellow ordained ministers criticising his campaign of none violent protest, and whilst explaining where they were failing to understand him, he did all that was possible to keep them as his friends. Your words about MLK, echo comments I'm listening to tonight as James Baldwin, who you may have heard of, (I hadn't), narrates the experiences he'd had in 1950s/1960s USA, and do you know, he seemed to understand those who may have been just like the stereotype you seem to me to be displaying. Listening to folks who say they knew another MLK assuages you from any responsibility for seeing him as a human being. Don't say anymore about him, as "that rabbit I won't chase for you".
> BTW have you held these same views all your !life, or is that " classified information?".   .




  "You prefer anecdotes about a man, rather than read his autobiography, "

 Yes, as I said these men marched with him, knew him on a personal level.

  As for ........... "rather than read his autobiography,"

You or I can write anything about ourselves , IMO an outside observer may see things differently.

I did not know him {MLK} I knew these these guys , I believed what they said. 

If based on that , you do not ? and / or do not believe me, or have an opposing opinion? That is your prerogative.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 21, 2020)

rgp said:


> "You prefer anecdotes about a man, rather than read his autobiography, "Yes, as I said these men marched with him, knew him on a personal level. As for ........... "rather than read his autobiography,"
> You or I can write anything about ourselves , IMO an outside observer may see things differently. I did not know him {MLK} I knew these these guys , I believed what they said.
> If based on that , you do not ? and / or do not believe me, or have an opposing opinion? That is your prerogative.


I have a come back you may not expect, but MLKs "autobiography", was compiled from his papers largely, after his death, by someone who I'd guess knew him better than your friends. Friends who perhaps only marched with him once, or perhaps "twice", that kind of " knew him", (according to your account). It still doesn't make sense to me that anyone would prefer to base their opinion on essentially gossip, fed to you by those claiming to have been on marches(?). Everyone cannot expect to have personal knowledge of any leader, personal info they are sure trumps everything else can they? What are vast numbers of people to base their opinions on, (your secondhand accounts at best?)?
You won't have to do so obviously, but you appear incapable of answering whether the views you put forward about criminals have always been the same, ( I'm seeking to try to uncover your powers of introspection if I can?)?   .


----------



## 911 (Jun 21, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Interesting quote, Been There.  I don't think that MLK was in favor of riots; all I have ever heard about him his whole life was anti-violence. I think what he was saying here is that when people are stuck in intolerable living conditions, with no other hope of improvement , they are driven to violent behavior out of desperation.  That isn't supporting the violence; it's just ruefully explaining why people are driven to it.  He thought that was a tragic thing, not a thing that he was promoting.


If that’s what you want to believe. Sometimes, people will say things that they, themself wouldn’t do, but by stating the thought, it plants a seed in the mind. It’s a way of psychologically planting an idea into a mind. Psychologists call it manipulate. Why else raise the issue? If you are all about peace and love and equality, you don’t bring up riots and other vitriol subjects. That kind of defeats the purpose or one’s agenda.

The riots back when King was alive, like for example, the Watts riots, had purpose. I know that sounds odd, but it’s what the Heritage Institute wrote shortly after the riots. Today’s riots are not the same. Today’s riots are more about just destroying and bringing about chaos. We all watched on TV as young blacks brought out of the Target store in Minneapolis the large screen TV’s and place them on carts. We all watched as blacks and whites raided drug stores and stole countless numbers of pills. We all watched as buildings were set on fire and police were attacked. Did anyone wonder why the cops didn’t draw their weapon and shoot these people? Do you know?

Did you ever wonder why whites are involved in riots? Whites have no purposeful agenda. They want us to believe that they want racial equality and I’m sure some do, but the majority of whites that are involved in these riots are only there to raise Hell and bring about chaos. The longer they can keep it going, the more it works in their favor. Seattle is an example.

Please don’t confuse the word ‘riots’ with ‘protest.’


----------



## rgp (Jun 21, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I have a come back you may not expect, but MLKs "autobiography", was compiled from his papers largely, after his death, by someone who I'd guess knew him better than your friends. Friends who perhaps only marched with him once, or perhaps "twice", that kind of " knew him", (according to your account). It still doesn't make sense to me that anyone would prefer to base their opinion on essentially gossip, fed to you by those claiming to have been on marches(?). Everyone cannot expect to have personal knowledge of any leader, personal info they are sure trumps everything else can they? What are vast numbers of people to base their opinions on, (your secondhand accounts at best?)?
> You won't have to do so obviously, but you appear incapable of answering whether the views you put forward about criminals have always been the same, ( I'm seeking to try to uncover your powers of introspection if I can?)?   .




 I do not remember everything I felt / thought, 50 years ago. I never said [kind of knew] him, I said they claimed to know him , on a personal level. I also said I believed them, on their personal accounts at the time. I am capable of answering current questions, and some form back in the day . Accept that or don't....I don't care one way or the other.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 21, 2020)

grahamg said:


> ( I'm seeking to try to uncover your powers of introspection if I can?)?   .


LMAO! Yeah sure! When pigs can fly!


----------



## grahamg (Jun 21, 2020)

rgp said:


> I do not remember everything I felt / thought, 50 years ago. I never said [kind of knew] him, I said they claimed to know him , on a personal level. I also said I believed them, on their personal accounts at the time. I am capable of answering current questions, and some form back in the day . Accept that or don't....I don't care one way or the other.


How much each of us cares about the views of the other, isn't likely to worry anybody. Those civil rights leaders in the 1960s described people giving them responses just like I believe you demonstrate here. They understood you, in my view, why you say the things you say,  the inability to see any criminal, or even suspected criminal, as a human being, your hard nosed attitude, and all the rest. Claiming special knowledge in any argument is a well known method of manipulation in arguments, a ploy in other words. Who really cares if a "group" (not sure how many in the group?), who claim to have marched with MLK say they think or believe anything negative about him, all equally negative as far as we've been told(?). I'd suggest its just possible people who know you tell you what you want to hear, rather than trying to dispelled notions in your head, so thats as likely to be the "special!list knowledge" you say you've got, to try to create doubts over the reputation of a revered public figure.
Let's leave it now, you won't answer straight forward questions, or not so straight forward questions, and in my view, thats a just another characteristic, one I'm not keen on.   .


----------



## grahamg (Jun 21, 2020)

911 said:


> Break Sometimes, people will say things that they, themself wouldn’t do, but by stating the thought, it plants a seed in the mind. It’s a way of psychologically planting an idea into a mind. Break
> The riots back when King was alive, like for example, the Watts riots, had purpose. I know that sounds odd, but it’s what the Heritage Institute wrote shortly after the riots. Today’s riots are not the same. Today’s riots are more about just destroying and bringing about chaos. We all watched on TV as young blacks brought out of the Target store in Minneapolis the large screen TV’s and place them on carts. We all watched as blacks and whites raided drug stores and stole countless numbers of pills. We all watched as buildings were set on fire and police were attacked. Did anyone wonder why the cops didn’t draw their weapon and shoot these people? Do you know?
> 
> Did you ever wonder why whites are involved in riots? Whites have no purposeful agenda. They want us to believe that they want racial equality and I’m sure some do, but the majority of whites that are involved in these riots are only there to raise Hell and bring about chaos. The longer they can keep it going, the more it works in their favor. Seattle is an example.
> ...


Do you believe there would have been more, or less rioting, had MLK never argued for nonviolent direct action, and only civil rights leaders calling for violent protests existed?


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 21, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Maybe the human rights of former police officers could be respected, even when they have the label correctly attached to them of "criminal", should a court convict them(?).    .
> I've sympathy even for the officer accused of murdering George Floyd, because he's a human being, probably with a clean record until this event, and because feeling no sympathy at all for anyone suspected of as crime, who ends up losing their !life, where there was viable alternative action the police could have taken, seems an unnecessarily polarised position to take.
> There is one thing about having " devils advocate" arguments being put forward, it prompts more discussion doesn't it.   .



Actually, that cop had a very long record of complaints and incidents of overuse of force, etc.  This wasn't his first dance, by any stretch; but it was his first murder.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 21, 2020)

and yet they keep these people on the payroll. why?


----------



## grahamg (Jun 21, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Actually, that cop had a very long record of complaints and incidents of overuse of force, etc.  This wasn't his first dance, by any stretch; but it was his first murder.


In the UK I've very little knowledge of criminal activity, anything that might lead to someone find their lives in jeopardy should police be called, and whatever they're suspect of make them foolishly think of resisting arrest, or taking flight. I did once let a room in my house to two young people, both from very wealthy and privileged backgrounds, and they were overall a pleasure to have around for the few months they stayed, before getting married at a lavish affair.
However, both admitted to being involved in what you might describe as "low level, posh crime", meaning they passed off items of jewelry as real gold, that were in their words, " hookey gold"!
She worked looking after young kids in a nursery to fill in the time, and was very caring and responsible, and he had a successful career, and both were very well connected. Their "hookey gold" crime, they passed off to unsuspecting secondhand shops etc they said, wasn't their only felony as he owned two firearms, one a pump action shotgun, the other a rifle, legally owned in the sense he had a licence, and had expertise handling them, having served in the army. The illegal aspect was I found these two weapons in a wardrobe, not locked in a gun cabinet, as required here, and the police made aware they held them at the property. When I raised the issue, the guns were taken away to their patents, and the problem solved, but he tried to explain away having them in the wardrobe, "for defence in case I'd chosen to attack them"!

Now the point, yes the point of this tale at last, if these two people were to be shot by law enforcement here, in the unlikely event they were met by armed officers here because of these criminal things they did probably to give themselves a " high", feeling they were being daring, would this serve them purposes of society in any way, if they ran away, or did something stupid like that when confronted by police?


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> and yet they keep these people on the payroll. why?



That, Marci, is the $64,000 question.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 22, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> That, Marci, is the $64,000 question.


I doubt the question of "keeping these people on the payroll" is the biggest question.
Accepting what should be a tragic loss of life, as being an inevitable consequence of someone not following every instruction they're given by a police officer, seems a pretty big question too. Whether enough of the population will make a change in their own behaviour, or vote differently, where these changes might reduce the death toll, is a big question. Continuing to fund wages of officers, especially officers yet to be convicted, seems small by comparison, and maybe fully justifiable.     .


----------



## rgp (Jun 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> How much each of us cares about the views of the other, isn't likely to worry anybody. Those civil rights leaders in the 1960s described people giving them responses just like I believe you demonstrate here. They understood you, in my view, why you say the things you say,  the inability to see any criminal, or even suspected criminal, as a human being, your hard nosed attitude, and all the rest. Claiming special knowledge in any argument is a well known method of manipulation in arguments, a ploy in other words. Who really cares if a "group" (not sure how many in the group?), who claim to have marched with MLK say they think or believe anything negative about him, all equally negative as far as we've been told(?). I'd suggest its just possible people who know you tell you what you want to hear, rather than trying to dispelled notions in your head, so thats as likely to be the "special!list knowledge" you say you've got, to try to create doubts over the reputation of a revered public figure.
> Let's leave it now, you won't answer straight forward questions, or not so straight forward questions, and in my view, thats a just another characteristic, one I'm not keen on.   .



I have answered the questions ....... period. You don't get to choose the manner in which I do so.

   But, OK, deal ...... since I haven't found anything about you that i am keen on either.


----------



## rgp (Jun 22, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Actually, that cop had a very long record of complaints and incidents of overuse of force, etc.  This wasn't his first dance, by any stretch; but it was his first murder.




Oh, so we are permitted to bring up the past record of the officer ? But we are not permitted to do the same of the career criminal ?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 22, 2020)

> There is one thing about having " devils advocate" arguments being put forward, it prompts more discussion doesn't it.   .



Graham, yes, that's it, in a nutshell!


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 22, 2020)

rgp said:


> *Oh, so we are permitted to bring up the past record of the officer *? But we are not permitted to do the same of the career criminal ?


ROFLMAO!

In you asking such an asinine question, it shows just how out of touch with reality you are.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

why? why is it ok to bring up one and not the other? i think it's only fair.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> why? why is it ok to bring up one and not the other? i think it's only fair.


Criminal behaviour _is what it is_, however, police (naturally) are held to a much higher level and standard than typical criminals, so deserve to be scrutinized and ostracised to the highest level and degree.


----------



## rgp (Jun 22, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> ROFLMAO!
> 
> In you asking such an asinine question, it shows just how out of touch with reality you are.




After reading your reply .... I realize just how ignorant you are.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> Criminal behaviour _is what it is_, however, police (naturally) are held to a much higher level and standard than typical criminals, so deserve to be scrutinized and ostracised to the highest level and degree.


i've seen other videos where they were arresting him and having to struggle with him. so yes the cop killed him and it was awful. i saw that. but, other times they've had to struggle with him means that they would likely go in expecting to fight with him too. not being a cop i'm sure there is a level of difficulty in never knowing what to expect.


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 22, 2020)

rgp said:


> After reading your reply .... I realize just how ignorant *your* are.


I'm good with just _you_, no need for the added "r".


----------



## Aunt Marg (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> i've seen other videos where they were arresting him and having to struggle with him. so yes the cop killed him and it was awful. i saw that. but, other times they've had to struggle with him means that they would likely go in expecting to fight with him too. not being a cop i'm sure there is a level of difficulty in never knowing what to expect.


You said it... "other videos", however, by all accounts, such was not the case this time around, at least not what evidence indicates.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> i've seen other videos where they were arresting him and having to struggle with him. so yes the cop killed him and it was awful. i saw that. but, other times they've had to struggle with him means that they would likely go in expecting to fight with him too. not being a cop i'm sure there is a level of difficulty in never knowing what to expect.


Are other videos circulating showing George Floyd being arrested on previous occasions, (have I understood you correctly?)?


----------



## Been There (Jun 22, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Interesting quote, Been There.  I don't think that MLK was in favor of riots; all I have ever heard about him his whole life was anti-violence. I think what he was saying here is that when people are stuck in intolerable living conditions, with no other hope of improvement , they are driven to violent behavior out of desperation.  That isn't supporting the violence; it's just ruefully explaining why people are driven to it.  He thought that was a tragic thing, not a thing that he was promoting.


I apologize for misleading you. I didn't mean to infer that he was in favor of them, but he never ruled them out that they were always a possibility that they could happen if they (the protesters) were not being taken seriously. However, in one speech that he gave in Atlanta just 3 years before he was killed, he did state that when people do not act upon what the protesters are asking for, riots are always a possibility. It's something that we should always be aware of. Was that a veiled threat? I guess it all depends on how you wish to interpret it. 

My grandmother took me to his event in Atlanta in 1965. I was just a young man back then, but it was one of those moments in your life that you never forget. Who knew that three years later he would be dead?


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 22, 2020)

Been There said:


> A lot of inner city schools are failing for a few reasons. One is they cannot recruit the better teachers. They do not want to teach at inner city schools because many of the students are disruptive and have behavioral problems. Most inner city schools receive more money than urban schools, but they must qualify by their student rankings, which they have failed to do. More money would provide a better education through purchasing modern books and technology tools, like computers. They could also pay their teachers more money, but because of the reasons stated, they will not come into the cities.
> 
> The majority of inner city black kids come from single family homes. No guidance, no discipline equals a poor education. Compare that to many of the former DACA kids now being professionals. Inner city blight produces gang-bangers and drug dealers. Gangs also run rampant.
> 
> ...


I read that about single family homes decades ago, although race and 'inner city' wasn't even mentioned..  it was said kids from single parent homes are virtually destined to fail in every aspect of their lives.  One of my kids and I had a good laugh over that-  as said kid had recently had an impressive score on SAT.  
My kids are college-educated professionals, and never been in any trouble whatsoever.  
So it's not about family composition-  but what the parents and kids together do with it.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 22, 2020)

rgp said:


> Oh, so we are permitted to bring up the past record of the officer ? But we are not permitted to do the same of the career criminal ?



For purposes of a civil suit against the city for negligent hiring and retention, you betcha they can bring that up.  It would be the whole point of the suit -- that the city had been put on actual notice for years that the cop was a loose cannon.

Civil litigation and criminal law are two completely different colored horses, with different law and different rules.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Are other videos circulating showing George Floyd being arrested on previous occasions, (have I understood you correctly?)?


i was looking for the one on youtube and others popped up from previous arrests where there was footage of struggle.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

Aunt Marg said:


> You said it... "other videos", however, by all accounts, such was not the case this time around, at least not what evidence indicates.


yes but in most *normal* conditions it is damned difficult to know what a suspect is gonna do. and given that he has fought them before, i can see where this woulda got real ugly real fast.

that officer wanted to kill him. you could see that clearly but, what ticks me off here is the fact that had the tables been turned that day and george had gotten the upper hand and the cop had died...

same ahole cop that set out to kill him, let's say george kills the cop instead. just for a hypothetical. we would be having this same argument in reverse. everyone would be glorifying the cop who died on duty and ostracizing george the criminal.

what is important is that someone died. doesn't matter what their job was or what their color was. someone died that day unnecessarily. it isn't just black lives that matter. *all lives matter.*

and if we didn't have crime, we wouldn't need cops. if people could behave properly we wouldn't have all this destruction. all this hate. but people are aholes and they just can't obey laws and get along. and in some cases people die because of it. if people would change the way they are and the way they choose to live, this world could be a better place to be. but no one wants to. they are only interested in themselves.

so while we're fighting about all this, keep all this in mind. it isn't just the cops fault. as a society we are a pita because we can't manage to stay out of trouble and be kind to one another. crap we're taught to do as children.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> why? why is it ok to bring up one and not the other? i think it's only fair.


Because ones a criminal case and ones a civil case. 


MarciKS said:


> i've seen other videos where they were arresting him and having to struggle with him. so yes the cop killed him and it was awful. i saw that. but, other times they've had to struggle with him means that they would likely go in expecting to fight with him too. not being a cop i'm sure there is a level of difficulty in never knowing what to expect.


Can you show these videos you are referring to please? I never saw this but I may have missed them.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

let me see if i can find it again


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> i was looking for the one on youtube and others popped up from previous arrests where there was footage of struggle.


I just searched you tube for videos about George Floyd, there were zero showing prior arrests.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

And here is information proving he didn’t resist arrest when he was murdered 
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn...eorge-floyd-contradict-resist-trnd/index.html


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

Keesha said:


> Because ones a criminal case and ones a civil case.
> 
> Can you show these videos you are referring to please? I never saw this but I may have missed them.


there was a struggle when they were trying to get him out of the vehicle.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> I just searched you tube for videos about George Floyd, there were zero showing prior arrests.


what i meant was previous footage that lead up to the arrest. sorry about that.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

nevermind. you see what you want to see. it's ok.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> there was a struggle when they were trying to get him out of the vehicle.


I saw no struggle whatsoever.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> i was looking for the one on youtube and others popped up from previous arrests where there was footage of struggle.


You confused me also since you said you were looking for videos about this arrest and other videos popped up from PREVIOUS arrests.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

https://thecourierdaily.com/george-floyd-criminal-past-record-arrest/20177/

I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm just saying when you're dealing with a career criminal that's violent the restraint may be necessary to keep the cop safe as well as the criminal. Clearly in this case it did not happen that way. But in normal situations, the restraint is protective. As I said, had the tables been turned we'd be praising that officer for dying in the line of duty even if we didn't know he'd planned on killing George that day. That's the point I'm trying to make.

There are no guarantees in life but, if a person stacks the odds against themselves then this is usually the end result whether it was right or wrong.

"Live by the sword, die by the sword" 
~*Aeschylus Agamemnon* 1558


----------



## Keesha (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> "Live by the sword, die by the sword"
> ~*Aeschylus Agamemnon* 1558


The police officer had an equally violent past that perhaps the victim knew about. Either way, at least he was rightfully charged.


----------



## win231 (Jun 22, 2020)

The video only proves that Mr. Floyd was murdered by Officer Chauvin.  It is completely irrelevant what was said between the two or whether or not there was a struggle.  Once Floyd was handcuffed, there was no reason to strangle him over a 9-minute period.  There is no getting around that fact.
Police officers who are capable of killing a handcuffed suspect over a _previous _argument, insult by a suspect, or a struggle are out-of-control psychos who have no business in law enforcement.
And anyone who thinks these officers were justified is a complete moron.


----------



## MarciKS (Jun 22, 2020)

first off i never said they were justified in doing what they did. if you go back and read you will see that. 

i also think calling people names when you don't agree is ridiculous. this isn't 3rd grade.


----------



## win231 (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> https://thecourierdaily.com/george-floyd-criminal-past-record-arrest/20177/
> 
> I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm just saying when you're dealing with a career criminal that's violent the restraint may be necessary to keep the cop safe as well as the criminal. Clearly in this case it did not happen that way. But in normal situations, the restraint is protective. As I said, had the tables been turned we'd be praising that officer for dying in the line of duty even if we didn't know he'd planned on killing George that day. That's the point I'm trying to make.
> 
> ...


Mr. Floyd was already restrained the moment he was handcuffed.  Therefore, his "violent career criminal status" is completely irrelevant.

"Violent Career Criminal??"
Mass murderers like Charles Manson were far more evil than Mr. Floyd.  He was handcuffed & booked.  Not strangled, not abused in any way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader

Dennis Rador - BTK Killer - (Bind, Torture, Kill) Tortured & killed 10.  Arrested without incident

Name Sex Age Date of Death Place of Death Cause of Death Weapon Used Joseph Otero M 39 January 15, 1974 803 North Edgemoor Street, Wichita Suffocated Plastic bag Julia Maria Otero F 33 Strangled Rope Joseph Otero, Jr. M 9 Suffocated Plastic bag Josephine Otero F 11 Hanged Rope Kathryn Doreen Bright F 21 April 4, 1974 3217 East 13th Street North, Wichita
 died at Wesley Medical Center.Stabbed three times
in abdomen[70] Knife Shirley Ruth Vian Relford F 24 March 17, 1977 1311 South Hydraulic Street, Wichita Strangled Rope Nancy Jo Fox F 25 December 8, 1977 843 South Pershing Street, Wichita Strangled Belt Marine Wallace Hedge F 53 April 27, 1985 6254 North Independence Street,
 Park CityStrangled Hand(s) Vicki Lynn Wegerle F 28 September 16, 1986 2404 West 13th Street North, Wichita Strangled Nylon stocking Dolores Earline Johnson Davis F 62 January 19, 1991 6226 North Hillside Street, Wichita Strangled Pantyhose


----------



## grahamg (Jun 22, 2020)

George Floyd was a very strong looking man, and had been an athlete, so you wouldn't have to be Perry Mason to bring this aspect out in court, as some kind of mitigation, but as you say, so much else does not make sense so far as the action of the policeman kneeling on him for so long as shown, and repeatedly commented upon.

The actions, or inactions/failure to stop what was going on, by the other officers is more complex. One thing is for absolute certain, everyone of them, if they had their lives to live over again, would want to behave differently we can assume. I suppose you could say, elsewhere in this world, where democracy isn't well entrenched, or doesn't exist, a great many suspects must die without anyone getting to hear about it.


----------



## win231 (Jun 22, 2020)

grahamg said:


> George Floyd was a very strong looking man, and had been an athlete, so you wouldn't have to be Perry Mason to bring this aspect out in court, as some kind of mitigation, but as you say, so much else does not make sense so far as the action of the policeman kneeling on him for so long as shown, and repeatedly commented upon.
> 
> The actions, or inactions/failure to stop what was going on, by the other officers is more complex. One thing is for absolute certain, everyone of them, if they had their lives to live over again, would want to behave differently we can assume. I suppose you could say, elsewhere in this world, where democracy isn't well entrenched, or doesn't exist, a great many suspects must die without anyone getting to hear about it.


You forgot to mention that George Floyd was handcuffed while he was murdered.  That makes his size, strength & athletic ability meaningless.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 22, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> there was a struggle when they were trying to get him out of the vehicle.



That struggle was over, they had handcuffs on him, and he was on the ground on his belly.  Pretty hard to struggle violently in that position.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 23, 2020)

grahamg said:


> George Floyd was a very strong looking man, and had been an athlete, so you wouldn't have to be Perry Mason to bring this aspect out in court, as some kind of mitigation, but as you say, so much else does not make sense so far as the action of the policeman kneeling on him for so long as shown, and repeatedly commented upon.
> 
> The actions, or inactions/failure to stop what was going on, by the other officers is more complex. One thing is for absolute certain, everyone of them, if they had their lives to live over again, would want to behave differently we can assume. I suppose you could say, elsewhere in this world, where democracy isn't well entrenched, or doesn't exist, a great many suspects must die without anyone getting to hear about it.



Just because Mr. Floyd was strong, etc. has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the fact that those officers killed him while he was restrained in handcuffs and face down on the ground.  Perry Mason wouldn't have any problem realizing that what this man looked like was NO mitigating factor.  It isn't OK for cops to murder scary looking guys, any more than it is OK for them to murder little ol' ladies.  What Chauvin did to him, kneeling on him for 8+minutes, killing him, was unconscionable.  And BTW, look at that video where Chauvin is kneeling on him and looking at the camera -- if that look on his Chauvin's face was fear, I'm the Pope.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 23, 2020)

win231 said:


> You forgot to mention that George Floyd was handcuffed while he was murdered.  That makes his size, strength & athletic ability meaningless.


I was not trying to excuse the officer at all by the comment I made, as although not convicted of murder yet, the evidence appears beyond any doubt he was beyond reckless with his suspects life, and I expect the officer to suffer the consequences of this fact, (how long a sentence he might receive, if convicted I'm not sure).
It does not make any sense a man would continue to kneel on anyone's neck minutes after he became unconscious, and I agree, for most, if not all the period before hand, (just extraordinary behaviour, making you think, as they knew one another, there was some I'll feeling there - it will come out in the trial no doubt).
All I'm doing by mentioning George Floyd appeared to be a strong man, was to understand whether anyone might fear him because of this, more than they might a smaller or weaker man, but absolutely it does not provide the officer with a defence, as he should be trained to deal with threats appropriately, especially when police were present in force, and the man already handcuffed.


----------



## win231 (Jun 23, 2020)

grahamg said:


> I was not trying to excuse the officer at all by the comment I made, as although not convicted of murder yet, the evidence appears beyond any doubt he was beyond reckless with his suspects life, and I expect the officer to suffer the consequences of this fact, (how long a sentence he might receive, if convicted I'm not sure).
> It does not make any sense a man would continue to kneel on anyone's neck minutes after he became unconscious, and I agree, for most, if not all the period before hand, (just extraordinary behaviour, making you think, as they knew one another, there was some I'll feeling there - it will come out in the trial no doubt).
> All I'm doing by mentioning George Floyd appeared to be a strong man, was to understand whether anyone might fear him because of this, more than they might a smaller or weaker man, but absolutely it does not provide the officer with a defence, as he should be trained to deal with threats appropriately, especially when police were present in force, and the man already handcuffed.


There is no reason to fear anyone because they are big or strong.  Muscles don't work without the brain telling them what to do.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 23, 2020)

win231 said:


> There is no reason to fear anyone because they are big or strong.  Muscles don't work without the brain telling them what to do.


Are you a big strong man with a brain saying this, or a smaller man trained in martial arts?


----------



## Ronni (Jun 23, 2020)

What I struggle with most in all this is the utter callousness exhibited by Chauvin.  The complete lack of empathy and any aspect whatever of humanity. 

We can argue all day whether or not he should or shouldn't have done what he did.  You all know my opinion on that.  But what I can't even begin to comprehend is the mindset of someone who would continue to "subdue" his prisoner so far past the point where the prisoner became incapable of any response whatever, up to and including unconsciousness and then death. 

What kind of mind thinks like that?  What kind of person would have a thought process that concluded it was imperative to continue to kneel on Mr. Floyd's neck after he became unresponsive (which was some time before he actually died)  because........????

Because why?  He certainly was no longer a threat (not that he ever actually was) But for argument's sake, sure he was a big guy, maybe he seemed threatening, perhaps he said some things that caused Chauvin some concern.  OK.  Whatever.  But once he's handcuffed with his hands behind his back, on the ground, on his stomach, several other officers right there, what threat does he pose then? 

So he could struggle maybe, try and flip over, maybe attempt to get up, so you might want to continue to restrain him.  But at some point, a few minutes before he actually died, at SOME point it HAD to become obvious to Chauvin that Mr. Floyd was all outta fight.  He was down.  He was done.  Struggling to breathe, body language indicating that he was compliant (other than perhaps straining to get another breath)  no more resistance. 

So, let's just continue to kneel on his neck some more, shall we?  We'll continue to kneel on his neck till he stops talking.  Till his eyes close.  Till his body goes limp.  Till he stops breathing.  And then till he no longer has a pulse. And then even after that.   At any one of those points (and well before obviously) Chauvin could have adjudicated that Mr. Floyd was no longer a threat. 

What kind of person does that?


----------



## Sunny (Jun 23, 2020)

> What kind of person does that?



Probably a sociopath, Ronni.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 23, 2020)

Sunny said:


> Probably a sociopath, Ronni.


It will surely come out at the trial whether there are sociopathic tendencies, but you could speculate endlessly, (everything from a deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others, all the way to an aberration, one nobody can understand).


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 23, 2020)

MsFox said:


> Go on YouTube and watch the videos from the Park City officer's body cam where they moved Floyd around and were talking to him in what appears a calm manner. This wasn't a regular arrest for passing counterfeit money. Very strange behavior and a bit too friendly, even Floyd's voice was calm saying he couldn't breathe. I don't think he had any idea they were going to kill him or he wouldn't have been so cooperative.


In separate conversations two of my friends and I cited the look on Chauvin's face as he was kneeling on Mr. Floyd's neck. It was chilling because it was so deliberate. My BFF of 42 years who happens to be white was extremely upset as she talked about the case; almost in tears. She was astonished when I brought up that look, thinking maybe she was the only one who noticed it.

Chauvin and Floyd worked security together at a club, so they knew each other for sure. Someone sent me a video on FB featuring someone who looked like Chauvin wearing a Make America White Again cap. I didn't share it because I did not know if it was legit. Anyway, it came to my mind that if Chauvin is that racist, perhaps he didn't like that Mr. Floyd's fiancee is White. It was also mentioned that Floyd had to keep Chauvin in check sometimes because of his tendency to be unnecessarily threatening to clientele.

@hollydolly  I still wonder if Mr. Floyd actually knew the bill was fake.  I wouldn't think twice about whether a $10 or $20 bill is real or fake. I'm more suspicious of (and don't like getting) $100 bills.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 23, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> @hollydolly  I still wonder if Mr. Floyd actually knew the bill was fake.  I wouldn't think twice about whether a $10 or $20 bill is real or fake. I'm more suspicious of (and don't like getting) $100 bills.



This is only on a side note, but I don't think _most _people could tell the difference between real and counterfeit even if they looked. Perhaps that's why some stores in this area have little machines to determine whether large bills are fake or real.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 23, 2020)

What good did George Floyd do? According to the article, he'd have your back, never wanted anything in return. He was referred to as a "gentle giant" who never hurt anybody. When he played basketball for South Florida state college, he stood out not only as a good athlete but someone who was fun to be around. He owned up to his mistakes. He had moved back to Minneapolis to improve his condition in life, to be around his children and be a better father. He was also in talks about joining a mentoring program.
https://www.rockdalenewtoncitizen.c...cle_480f276c-d50e-57b2-a1ee-611035830d89.html


----------



## Knight (Jun 23, 2020)

Jun 4, 2020

#63

Click to expand...Slight correction. Two other officers were standing one was on his torso. That weight on his torso would IMO help to cause inability to breathe properly . Between loss of blood circulation to the brain & pressure on his torso the ALLEGED criminal was as described a Victim
Quote ReplyReport
LikeAngry Reactions:OneEyedDiva and Ronni

Going way back OneEyedDiva your emoji showed as angry to my post. I think you might have misinterpreted my post.

George Floyd is the victim. He was the alleged criminal. We'll never know that he actually passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill. 

As I've pointed out previously sitting in a car with two friends, one in the front seat with the passenger door open. That seems normal to me for someone that unknowingly passed a counterfeit bill. The alleged in my mind is because it was not proven Floyd was the one the store owner claims passed the bill. A claim isn't fact until proven.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 23, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> https://thecourierdaily.com/george-floyd-criminal-past-record-arrest/20177/
> 
> I'm not saying he deserved to die. I'm just saying when you're dealing with a career criminal that's violent the restraint may be necessary to keep the cop safe as well as the criminal. Clearly in this case it did not happen that way. But in normal situations, the restraint is protective. As I said, had the tables been turned we'd be praising that officer for dying in the line of duty even if we didn't know he'd planned on killing George that day. That's the point I'm trying to make.
> 
> ...



I think it's pretty much a guarantee that if you cut off a person's blood/oxygen to his brain for 8+ minutes, the person is going to die.  That cop had training and he knew that. 

He didn't do it to restrain Mr. Floyd, who was already restrained and face down on the ground with his hands handcuffed behind him.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 23, 2020)

Knight said:


> George Floyd is the victim. He was the alleged criminal. We'll never know that he actually passed a counterfeit $20.00 bill.



But THE point-  at least in my opinion-  is information came out that the creep who killed him already disliked him..  so it was more a personal attack than simply something that occurred during an arrest.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 23, 2020)

grahamg said:


> It will surely come out at the trial whether there are sociopathic tendencies, but you could speculate endlessly, (everything from a deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others, all the way to an aberration, one nobody can understand).



I don't agree, Graham. A deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others?  What message could possibly warrant the cold-blooded murder of another human being who is clearly no threat?  Even if he was guilty (oh, horrors!) of passing a phony $20 bill, did that crime deserve the death penalty, let alone an immediate execution without benefit of a trial or anything else?  Do you know of any civilized nation that would condone this kind of "punishment," even if a crime had been committed?  And remember, there was no evidence of any crime or threat at all from this man. He was dragged from his car and brutally murdered.

Your other suggestion, an "aberration," is even more puzzling.  Aberration from what? The word means "A departure from what is normal, or expected."  Can we really refer to this cold-blooded killing as a mere departure from police procedure?

BTW, I know we can speculate endlessly, but my reply that a sociopath is the kind of person who would do this was an answer to Ronni's question in the previous note.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 23, 2020)

Sunny said:


> I don't agree, Graham. A deliberate killing to thereby send out a message to others?  What message could possibly warrant the cold-blooded murder of another human being who is clearly no threat?  Even if he was guilty (oh, horrors!) of passing a phony $20 bill, did that crime deserve the death penalty, let alone an immediate execution without benefit of a trial or anything else?  Do you know of any civilized nation that would condone this kind of "punishment," even if a crime had been committed?  And remember, there was no evidence of any crime or threat at all from this man. He was dragged from his car and brutally murdered.
> 
> Your other suggestion, an "aberration," is even more puzzling.  Aberration from what? The word means "A departure from what is normal, or expected."  Can we really refer to this cold-blooded killing as a mere departure from police procedure?
> 
> BTW, I know we can speculate endlessly, but my reply that a sociopath is the kind of person who would do this was an answer to Ronni's question in the previous note.


I'm just "speculating endlessly" myself, and if I were pushed I'd give a verdict of deliberate killing/murder, because of the link between the two men raising the possibility of a vendetta, (obviously saying this is my opinion, whilst knowing I've seen no evidence acceptable in court there was a vendetta). I'm not making excuses therefore, in my endless speculation, but I do think its necessary for everyone to allow justice to take its course, that all.   .


----------



## Sunny (Jun 23, 2020)

I agree with that, Graham.


----------



## win231 (Jun 23, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Are you a big strong man with a brain saying this, or a smaller man trained in martial arts?


I don't know what that has to do with it, but....no.  5'11" & 168 is hardly "big & strong."  No fight training.    At 67, I'm not stupid enough to fight with anyone.  If I have to defend myself, there are better & safer ways.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 23, 2020)

win231 said:


> I don't know what that has to do with it, but....no.  5'11" & 168 is hardly "big & strong."  No fight training.    At 67, I'm not stupid enough to fight with anyone.  If I have to defend myself, there are better & safer ways.


Just my attempt at humour, and at your height/weight I'd guess there are men capable of putting up a hell of a fight. I've never been in a physical fight in my life, so I'm no expert obviously. Funnily enough the only lad I almost ended up fighting in my school days remained a friend ever since, (alcoholism may destroy that friendship along with his life unfortunately now).


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 23, 2020)

I think the vendetta thing is a bit out there, but I don't think it matters.  Chauvin stayed on Mr. Floyd's neck till long after he quit moving or crying out or breathing.  That's murder,any way you slice it.

I think Chauvin has a problem with black men in general, and in particular, those who challenge his authority in any way.  I hope Chauvin enjoys his time in prison; he earned every minute of it.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I think the vendetta thing is a bit out there, but I don't think it matters.  Chauvin stayed on Mr. Floyd's neck till long after he quit moving or crying out or breathing.  That's murder,any way you slice it.
> 
> I think Chauvin has a problem with black men in general, and in particular, those who challenge his authority in any way.  I hope Chauvin enjoys his time in prison; he earned every minute of it.


Yes, you can hope that, but he's yet to have a fair trial, yet to be convicted of anything, and yet to have a judge pronounce sentence. Do you wish to deny him those rights today, before hoping he finds prison enjoyable?


----------



## Knight (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Yes, you can hope that, but he's yet to have a fair trial, yet to be convicted of anything, and yet to have a judge pronounce sentence. Do you wish to deny him those rights today, before hoping he finds prison enjoyable?


Only if you believe in an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.  George Floyd was denied the fairness of the justice system.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2020)

Knight said:


> Only if you believe in an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.  George Floyd was denied the fairness of the justice system.


As is every murder victim of course, and it is the "unfairness of losing your life" when the suspected crime seemed relatively minor.


----------



## Knight (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> As is every murder victim of course, and it is the "unfairness of losing your life" when the suspected crime seemed relatively minor.


I'm happy you chose "suspected crime" since Floyd didn't get his chance in the justice system.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> Yes, you can hope that, but he's yet to have a fair trial, yet to be convicted of anything, and yet to have a judge pronounce sentence. Do you wish to deny him those rights today, before hoping he finds prison enjoyable?



No, but am not going to try to spin what happened to try to vilify the victim or pretend that the officer was just doing his job, either.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2020)

Knight said:


> I'm happy you chose "suspected crime" since Floyd didn't get his chance in the justice system.


You are right of course, but if we're to be governed by laws and a justice system, even a flawed system, rather than mob rule, you can't have the officer denied a trial even if his victim didn't get the same.   .


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> No, but am not going to try to spin what happened to try to vilify the victim or pretend that the officer was just doing his job, either.


I've not done that, (have I?), or I hope not anyway.    .


----------



## Knight (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You are right of course, but if we're to be governed by laws and a justice system, even a flawed system, rather than mob rule, you can't have the officer denied a trial even if his victim didn't get the same.   .


I didn't suggest he should be denied a trial. I think along with most you recognized George Floyd was a victim. So there will be a trial & hopefully a jury of his peers can be chosen that aren't biased about why he is on trial.


----------



## Getoffmylawn (Jun 24, 2020)

rgp said:


> Well .... I disagree completely. He involved himself in a criminal activity, he encountered the police ..... he died as a result . Had he not involved himself in that criminal activity ......... he would likely still be alive.


That's not how law and order, civilization or just plain fairness is supposed to play out. If he was involved in a nonviolent crime, the outcome should have been an arrest. Not being knee-choked. If you had a grandson who shoplifted --also a non-violent crime --would it be okay for a cop to knee-choke him? or would it be better for  you and for our society if the cop simply arrested him, have him charged and let justice play out as it will? Right.


----------



## rgp (Jun 24, 2020)

Getoffmylawn said:


> That's not how law and order, civilization or just plain fairness is supposed to play out. If he was involved in a nonviolent crime, the outcome should have been an arrest. Not being knee-choked. If you had a grandson who shoplifted --also a non-violent crime --would it be okay for a cop to knee-choke him? or would it be better for  you and for our society if the cop simply arrested him, have him charged and let justice play out as it will? Right.



 It is exactly how law & order are supposed to play out. Just that in this case something went all wrong. As yet, i place no blame, except to add that from a toxicology stand point Mr Floyd was not in the best of health, and IMO that added to his demise.

It cannot be said enough .... do not commit crime, and one will likely never engage with the police in a negative manner.

If I had a grandson, and he shoplifted? He would have to face the consequences just like everyone else.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You are right of course, but if we're to be governed by laws and a justice system, even a flawed system, rather than mob rule, you can't have the officer denied a trial even if his victim didn't get the same.   .



I didn't hear anybody, myself included, saying that officer should not get a fair trial.  Of course he is entitled to a fair trial, in which jurors will judge his actions according to the law and the evidence.


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 24, 2020)

Just a random thought from left field.

My nation was founded on the sweat of petty criminals like George Floyd. Some of them went on to be very useful citizens when given a chance and a new start. Apparently I am descended from some of them. This news came as a surprise because, apart from one who deserted from the Royal Navy in 1872, we always believed that our ancestors were all law abiding and respectable free settlers.

 Perhaps we should all dig into our ancestry before deciding that petty crime should be dealt with by summary execution.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 24, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I didn't hear anybody, myself included, saying that officer should not get a fair trial.  Of course he is entitled to a fair trial, in which jurors will judge his actions according to the law and the evidence.


That's fine then, I must have mistakenly read, "George Floyd didn't get a trial" to mean we should all assume guilt before the trial, without seeing all the evidence available. Don't forget I'm saying that, whilst still suspecting there is more damning stuff to come out about a possible vendetta, as anyone of those officers could have restrained the man on the floor, (if they'd deemed it necessary, but the one doing so was the officer who knew him).    .


----------



## win231 (Jun 24, 2020)

grahamg said:


> That's fine then, I must have mistakenly read, "George Floyd didn't get a trial" to mean we should all assume guilt before the trial, without seeing all the evidence available. Don't forget I'm saying that, whilst still suspecting there is more damning stuff to come out about a possible vendetta, as anyone of those officers could have restrained the man on the floor, (if they'd deemed it necessary, but the one doing so was the officer who knew him).    .


Again, Floyd was already restrained before the officers murdered him.  You don't know that he was already handcuffed??


----------



## Warrigal (Jun 25, 2020)

Apparently it is George Orwell's birthday on June 25. I saw him trending on Twitter and my attention was drawn to this graphic.





I won't offer an explanation because there are several ways that those amended rules can be interpreted, both as the level of individuals and also by certain systems of government. Orwell was actually writing about the Communist Party in Russia when he wrote Animal Farm but I can see a connection to George Floyd's fate as well.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 25, 2020)

win231 said:


> Again, Floyd was already restrained before the officers murdered him.  You don't know that he was already handcuffed??


No, I knew that, and is it true he was not only handcuffed but in the squad car, before being taken out and placed on the floor, (it has set me thinking of something the officer might claim in his defence, youre raising tge question, but won't share it right now, because we've all speculated too much already in my view).   .


----------



## Knight (Jun 25, 2020)

grahamg said:


> That's fine then, I must have mistakenly read, "George Floyd didn't get a trial" to mean we should all assume guilt before the trial, without seeing all the evidence available. Don't forget I'm saying that, whilst still suspecting there is more damning stuff to come out about a possible vendetta, as anyone of those officers could have restrained the man on the floor, (if they'd deemed it necessary, but the one doing so was the officer who knew him).    .


You weren't mistaken. George Floyd didn't get a trial he was killed before he was even put in a police car. To help understand what took place there are two videos. 

1st. video George Floyd was sitting in his car with two other people. Two officers came from a police car parked across the street from Floyd. Same video the friends exit the video then Floyd does, is HANDCUFFED with his hands behind him and told to sit on the curb which he does. 

2nd. video Floyd still handcuffed face down in the street with one officer kneeling on his neck & back another on his lower torso. Two others standing apart watching. 

 Floyd was not capable of resisting arrest nor did he since in video #1. he was already subdued. Floyd's health, working with the officer that killed him, prior criminal history are points that people toss in for hypotheticals & what if's.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 25, 2020)

> Floyd was not capable of resisting arrest nor did he since in video #1. he was already subdued. Floyd's health, working with the officer that killed him, prior criminal history are points that people toss in for hypotheticals & what if's.



Amazing, isn't it, how adept some people are at creating and tossing around red herrings, to deflect attention from "inconvenient truths?"


----------



## 911 (Jun 25, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I think it's pretty much a guarantee that if you cut off a person's blood/oxygen to his brain for 8+ minutes, the person is going to die.  That cop had training and he knew that.
> 
> He didn't do it to restrain Mr. Floyd, who was already restrained and face down on the ground with his hands handcuffed behind him.


This is what puzzles me. I have been to several self-defense courses and I never saw the technique taught or even demonstrated at any of them. I have no idea where he learned the knee to the neck mechanic. Maybe he took some personal training in martial arts and it was taught there. I just don't know. I had another Trooper tell me that the move was on Minneapolis police's approved list of self-defense techniques. If that's so, I would imagine that the policeman's defense will raise the issue, but there was no justification for it from my viewpoint. The man was controlled, cuffed and on the ground. Game over!


----------



## 911 (Jun 25, 2020)

JaniceM said:


> This is only on a side note, but I don't think _most _people could tell the difference between real and counterfeit even if they looked. Perhaps that's why some stores in this area have little machines to determine whether large bills are fake or real.


Store clerks are taught how to tell the difference. By holding them to a light, you should see a watermark. Also, different denominations will turn different colors around the edges. Who cares anyway? Most larger stores carry insurance against accepting counterfeit bills. I have never seen a clerk check for a counterfeit bill unless a notice has gone out to be on the lookout for counterfeit $20 bills, or whatever other denomination.


----------



## 911 (Jun 25, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> I think the vendetta thing is a bit out there, but I don't think it matters.  Chauvin stayed on Mr. Floyd's neck till long after he quit moving or crying out or breathing.  That's murder,any way you slice it.
> 
> I think Chauvin has a problem with black men in general, and in particular, those who challenge his authority in any way.  I hope Chauvin enjoys his time in prison; he earned every minute of it.


I think he should hire a food-taster.


----------



## 911 (Jun 25, 2020)

Knight said:


> Only if you believe in an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.  George Floyd was denied the fairness of the justice system.


Do you honestly believe that Derek Chauvin will get a fair trial? I don't see how. He's already been convicted and sentenced by the media and so many others. Unless other facts are brought forth at his trial, if there even is one, I would say* based on what we know now*, his goose is cooked.

If I was in his shoes, I would try to have my attorney get me a good deal. But, even so, if he would be lucky enough to get a great deal, like maybe involuntary murder, there's still the Feds that are waiting for him for Round 2. Civil Rights trial usually haven't gone so well for the defendants.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 25, 2020)

911 said:


> I would say* based on what we know now*, his goose is cooked.


Good!


----------



## Knight (Jun 25, 2020)

911 said:


> Do you honestly believe that Derek Chauvin will get a fair trial?



It's possible that a bench trial for Derek Chauvin will be what he & his lawyers will ask for.  The videos tell a story, the fact that the counterfeit $20.00 bill was caught by a money counting machine & not physically looked at and immediately flagged is IMO important. 

On the other side if George Floyd actually made it to court more than likely for a $20.00 bill Floyd would have pleaded not guilty before a judge. The judge would weigh, not resisting arrest, not fleeing the place where the $20.00 was passed & the clerk not recognizing the bill as fake. The judge can look at what Floyd was alleged to have done & what took place. No real evidence that Floyd passed the bill.

I can almost hear the gavel now. Case dismissed your free to go. Next case on the docket.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 25, 2020)

911 said:


> This is what puzzles me. I have been to several self-defense courses and I never saw the technique taught or even demonstrated at any of them. I have no idea where he learned the knee to the neck mechanic. Maybe he took some personal training in martial arts and it was taught there. I just don't know. I had another Trooper tell me that the move was on Minneapolis police's approved list of self-defense techniques. If that's so, I would imagine that the policeman's defense will raise the issue, but there was no justification for it from my viewpoint. The man was controlled, cuffed and on the ground. Game over!



The following was reported by CNN on June 24:

Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo says the death of George Floyd was "murder" and that the officer who was seen pressing his knee into Floyd's neck "knew what he was doing" because he had taken specific training on preventing "positional asphyxiation," or suffocation.

"Mr. George Floyd's tragic death was not due to a lack of training -- the training was there. Chauvin knew what he was doing," Arradondo said in a statement.
"The officers knew what was happening -- one intentionally caused it and the others failed to prevent it. This was murder -- it wasn't a lack of training," Arradondo said.




Four weeks after George Floyd's death, an embattled police union finally speaks out
Derek Chauvin and Tou Thao, two of the officers involved in the death of George Floyd, both received department training on preventing "positional asphyxiation," or suffocation, in people being restrained in a prone position or face down, the Minneapolis Police Department confirmed to CNN on Wednesday.

Arradondo released the statement late Tuesday night in response to training records questions and a data request from the Star Tribune about whether the Minneapolis Police Department fulfilled a promise in a 2013 settlement to require all sworn officers to undergo training on the dangers of positional asphyxiation.

Chief Arradondo said in the statement that the Minneapolis Police Department "went beyond the requirements" of the settlement.

It not only provided the training, but changed its policies in June 2014 to "explicitly require moving an arrestee from a prone position to a recovery position when the maximal restraint technique is used and require continuous monitoring of an arrestee's condition."


----------



## win231 (Jun 25, 2020)

911 said:


> I think he should hire a food-taster.


He should face a firing squad.  He would suffer far less than his victim.
And I'd be more-than-happy to donate all needed supplies.


----------



## grahamg (Jun 26, 2020)

win231 said:


> He should face a firing squad.  He would suffer far less than his victim.
> And I'd be more-than-happy to donate all needed supplies.


You'll force me into further speculation if you're not careful, but at least you'll have saved yourself from appearing in the jury, should your name to on the provisional list, by the post above.   .


----------



## win231 (Jun 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You'll force me into further speculation if you're not careful, but at least you'll have saved yourself from appearing in the jury, should your name to on the provisional list, by the post above.   .


  I don't have to be concerned about serving on a jury.   I find our justice system pathetic & I've already let them know it many times.  There is no way I'd ever participate in something I consider to be so corrupt & useless.
They did try to force me to serve several years ago, even threatening me with arrest.  I LOL'd &  told them "You have my address.  Come & get me."  They didn't push it.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 26, 2020)

grahamg said:


> You'll force me into further speculation if you're not careful, but at least you'll have saved yourself from appearing in the jury, should your name to on the provisional list, by the post above.   .



Not a chance of his being called to serve on that jury anyway.  He doesn't live in MN.


----------



## JaniceM (Jun 26, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Not a chance of his being called to serve on that jury anyway.  He doesn't live in MN.


I'd never hesitate to accept jury duty...  in some cases, in fact, I'd _eat nails _for the opportunity!! and this case is one example.


----------



## Keesha (Jun 26, 2020)

I won’t due dury duty either but I’ve got doctors notes that eliminate my need to participate and even if I didn’t I just wouldn’t do it. I don’t care which case it is.


----------



## Sunny (Jun 27, 2020)

I've served once on a jury, and was very impressed by the fairness of the trial. The guy was obviously guilty, and it took us less than half an hour to reach that verdict, as he didn't have any plausible excuse for what he did.

After the trial was over, the prosecutor and the defense attorney briefly met with the jury to ask what factors weighed into our decision. They seemed very interested in hearing about our thought process.

I don't expect to every again be asked to serve on a jury, but wouldn't hesitate to do so if asked.


----------



## Butterfly (Jun 27, 2020)

Here the courts are very serious about people showing up for jury duty.  If you don't show or present evidence that you can't physically do so or some real hardship in doing so, they will either fine you and/or throw you in jail for contempt.  Now that doesn't mean you'll be chosen to sit on a jury; some people figure out what to say to pretty much assure they are not chosen, but nevertheless if you don't show up for the first day orientation or jury selection you can be in deep you-know-what.


----------



## applecruncher (Jun 27, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I'm appalled at some of the replies I've seen on this forum surrounding these killings


I'm not appalled or even surprised.
This forum has quite a bit of smug hatred, ignorance, and racists who love the anonymity of the internet.


----------



## Don M. (Jun 27, 2020)

This cop will most certainly face some jail time...no matter what he is eventually charged with.  Then, unless he is placed in solitary confinement, and has guards accompany him if/when he is ever allowed out of his cell, he will wind up being the victim of an "accident"...and justice will be served.


----------



## 911 (Jun 27, 2020)

Don M. said:


> This cop will most certainly face some jail time...no matter what he is eventually charged with.  Then, unless he is placed in solitary confinement, and has guards accompany him if/when he is ever allowed out of his cell, he will wind up being the victim of an "accident"...and justice will be served.


Normally, most states place police that go to prison in protective custody and they are confined to solitary confinement and do not interact with the remainder of the prison population. They (the prisoner) can also request to have his food checked before consuming it. The state must guarantee the prisoner’s safety at all times. If anything should happen to Chauvin, his heirs will be able to sue the state.

I will admit that I can’t swear to it that all states fall under these rules, but many do.

We also have to keep in mind that he could also spend time in Federal prison and that’s a whole new ballgame.


----------



## win231 (Jun 27, 2020)

911 said:


> Normally, most states place police that go to prison in protective custody and they are confined to solitary confinement and do not interact with the remainder of the prison population. They (the prisoner) can also request to have his food checked before consuming it. The state must guarantee the prisoner’s safety at all times. If anything should happen to Chauvin, his heirs will be able to sue the state.
> 
> I will admit that I can’t swear to it that all states fall under these rules, but many do.
> 
> We also have to keep in mind that he could also spend time in Federal prison and that’s a whole new ballgame.


I'm sure Charvin is hoping for Federal prison - also known an "Club Fed," because it's more pleasant than the lives of some regular, working people.
And even in a regular prison, statistically, he'd be safer than the rest of us.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 27, 2020)

applecruncher said:


> I'm not appalled or even surprised.
> This forum has quite a bit of smug hatred, ignorance, and racists who love the anonymity of the internet.


I've noticed and I'm still appalled!


----------



## Keesha (Jun 27, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I've noticed and I'm still appalled!


As am I! Surprised and appalled.


----------



## peppermint (Jun 27, 2020)

I'm not surprised and appalled....At my age I can't help what people do or say...It's getting now I don't want to see the news on TV....
America is out with there dirty hands...None of this should of happened....What I don't want is for my younger kids to have a country 
that is an anarchy...They will have absence of Government and absolute freedom....It seems it's going that way....
(You don't have to agree with me)….We all have our freedom to say what we want.....It's America....BUT!!!!!!!
Hope everyone is well at this time in our lifetime....And I am an older Citizen...And this has the worst....with 9/11...


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 28, 2020)

Knight said:


> Jun 4, 2020
> 
> #63
> 
> ...


The anger emoji was most likely *not* directed at you Knight...but at your description of what took place with Mr. Floyd.  This thread has gotten so long that I don't know to which reply you are referring. I'm trying to catch up with some of these threads now, which is how I saw your comment to me.


----------



## OneEyedDiva (Jun 28, 2020)

Ronni said:


> Y’all, RGP wants to be engaged with which is why he keeps baiting you, so that you will respond. Every time you do, he got what he wanted (conversation) and so then he turns around and offers something else.....a question, a deflection, a dig...something, ANYTHING to keep the conversation going.
> 
> More than winning the argument, more than proving a point, more even than being right, he just wants to be engaged with. As long as you keep engaging he’ll keep the conversation going. You simply will not get ANY agreement with any of the very compelling points you’ve raise because that’s not RGP’s focus. He’s not really interested in enlightenment. He just doesn’t want you to go away and you will if there’s nothing more to fight about!!
> 
> Even making this statement will give him something else to focus on and be able to use to keep the conversation going.


I've been thinking the same thing Ronni. Like...this man (if that's the gender) can *not *possibly be serious with the foolishness (he) expresses...just wants some attention and add fat to the fire.


----------



## applecruncher (Jun 28, 2020)

@Ronni 
@OneEyedDiva 

I totally agree about rgp.


----------



## Becky1951 (Jun 28, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I've been thinking the same thing Ronni. Like...this man (if that's the gender) can *not *possibly be serious with the foolishness (he) expresses...just wants some attention and add fat to the fire.


I agree and as long as everyone keeps taking the bait it will continue.


----------



## rgp (Jun 28, 2020)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I've been thinking the same thing Ronni. Like...this man (if that's the gender) can *not *possibly be serious with the foolishness (he) expresses...just wants some attention and add fat to the fire.




  I am certainly serious, As I have said all along .... I have no use for criminals .... and I support the police in battle against them .......... Foolishness ? I think not. You accuse me ? of adding fat to the fire ? Then you post rubbish, such as this ? ..... Foolish ? Go look in the mirror.


----------



## rgp (Jun 28, 2020)

Becky1951 said:


> I agree and as long as everyone keeps taking the bait it will continue.



 Right back at'cha.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Jun 28, 2020)

https://www.seniorforums.com/threads/notice-all-members-please-read.8331/


----------

