# Vaccine is amazingly effective!



## Sunny

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/heal...breakthrough-hospitalization-death/index.html


----------



## MarciKS

Thanks for the share Sunny


----------



## feywon

Thank you, did not know exact stats but knew both hospitalizations and deaths in vaccinated people are extremely low.


----------



## suds00

i don't understand why people are against the vaccination.it seems like they believe there is a conspiracy to ie about the facts.


----------



## Irwin

People are against the covid vaccine and wearing facemasks because they don't want to be ostracized from their social groups, and they fear that's what would happen if they didn't go with the flow.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> People are against the covid vaccine and wearing facemasks because they don't want to be ostracized from their social groups, and they fear that's what would happen if they didn't go with the flow.


How would getting the vaccine cause them to be ostracized from their social groups?  I have 3 friends whom I drove to get their Covid vaccines. They knew I wasn't getting one; it made no difference to them.  I also have 2 other friends who chose not to get the vaccine; the husband has health issues & (after a flu shot almost killed him)  his doctor said, "No Covid or flu shots for you."  His wife can get the vaccine; she chose not to.  Also makes no difference to me.
It wouldn't cause a problem unless they started acting like some people here - getting a holier than thou attitude, or criticizing others' health decisions or (LOL) blaming them on the spread.
We see this nonsense in other areas with some individuals.  One person will quit smoking or lose weight & it will go right to their head; they can't stop bragging & become put-down artists toward their other friends.  Then they wonder why they lost friends.


----------



## Tom 86

I NEVER believe anything on CNN.    Interestingly, the Conav-19 cases in hospitals have gone up to over 4,000 a week in our State.  The interesting & what Dr's are trying to figure out.  People that GOT both shots after 4 months or so they end up in the hospitals.  They have beds in the halls.  Not real bad cases of Conav-19 but they have breathing problems enough to put them in the hospitals. 

  I can attest to this as I got my shot in January.  4 months later I was in the hospital with Conav-19.   They are trying to find out what's in the shots that are making people sick after 4 months.


----------



## Lara

Tom 86 said:


> I NEVER believe anything on CNN.


That makes 2 of us.


----------



## Alligatorob

Thanks for the link, but I understand those who don't believe CNN on things like this.  I am not sure they are lying, but they do not do a good job of presenting actually useful information.  They prefer the dramatic headline to real news...  I don't trust Fox or most of the other news outlets either.  

One problem in this article is the claim that "_99.999% of fully vaccinated Americans have not had a deadly Covid-19 breakthrough case_", that just seems too high to believe.  However even if the number were lower it would be an important fact, we need reliable information.  To CNN's credit they do show some statistics to defend the claim, 1,263 deaths out of a vaccinated population of 163,000,000 is in fact a death rate of 0.00077%, suggesting that 99.999% of the vaccinated don't die.  However without knowing the % of the unvaccinated population that die its not a very useful statistic.  Even assuming CNN's numbers are right, and they may be, they fail in not putting them into useful perspective.

That low number does not seem to jive with the anecdotal stories we hear, and not just from the news media.  I do know one man who died of Covid after getting two shots, and have heard claims of a lot more.  0.00077% is up there with the number of big $ lottery winners, and I don't know many of those.  I believe good statistics more than the anecdotal stories, problem is I am not sure how good these statistics are.  At least the one man I knew did die after being inoculated, that I am pretty sure of.

This is important and we need to get it right.  I do think folks ought to get vaccinated, even with the mixed bag of information we now have, I am.  But I can understand with such confusing "information" why some are hesitant.  I believe better more reliable data and information would result in more people making informed decisions, better decisions.


----------



## oldman

I was listening to talk radio last night on Sirius-XM. Another know-it-all doctor was taking and answering questions from listeners off of an 800 number. One question was—-“Why do people who were vaccinated still get the virus?”  
His answer was something like “Because the Delta variant is not constructed the same as the first variant was, which is what the vaccine was designed to fight against using the immune system. The vaccine supports and adds special inhibitors to kill or deter the COVD (SARS) virus from infecting the person who was vaccinated.” NOTE—-The doctor gave the name of the first variant, but I can’t remember what it is. Also, what I wrote that the doctor said is not verbatim. It’s what I remember him saying, but is not exact.

He also said that so far all of the variants have had similar genetic markers and this is why the vaccine aids in fighting off other variants. I am not a scientist, but I think I understand his references. He also spoke about different Lymphocytes, which is where I kind of fogged up.


----------



## Don M.

I don't rely on any One source for news....I flip through all the news channels, and Internet, and try to sort out the BS from the facts.  Considering that virtually ALL of the media tends to "sensationalize" everything, so as to increase their viewership and commercial incomes, a degree of "skepticism" should be maintained.  

That said....virtually EVERY news source and reports are saying that getting vaccinated is the Best way to avoid getting severely ill, or dying from this virus.  Yes, there are "breakthrough" cases....not everyone can be fully protected by a vaccine....many already have health issues that limit the effectiveness of the vaccines.  BUT...the vast majority of people are unlikely to get ill/die once they get vaccinated.  

AND...given that this virus continues to "mutate", it is within reason to expect that there will be modified vaccines and booster shots needed in the future to try to bring this virus under control.


----------



## Tom 86

There is something in the woodpile.  The scientist never got to who & how it got to the USA.  No one punishing China for letting this get out of their lab.  In a nutshell, this is germ warfare they were developing.  They should have never been able to develop under the Geneva convention rules.


----------



## WhatInThe

When big pharma & medicine 'experts' talk, give interviews etc onething that's rarely mentioned is that those vaxxed were not tested for antibodies from a prior asymptomatic infection. Or noted they had a full blown symptomatic infection prior to the jab/s.

How do they know wether the vax or natural immunity is preventing the virus in the vaxxed? Sounds like an important variable that's not included in many statistics/studies even with a footnote.


----------



## Tom 86

"Whatinthe"
Very true.  They rushed this vaccine too fast, & they are still just doing a band-aid job of trying to figure out the next steps needed to be taken.  As they use to say. "Haste makes waste"   So in all the haste to get "something" on the market they wasted a lot of time to perfect a good vaccine & tests.


----------



## Don M.

Tom 86 said:


> There is something in the woodpile.  The scientist never got to who & how it got to the USA.  No one punishing China for letting this get out of their lab.  In a nutshell, this is germ warfare they were developing.  They should have never been able to develop under the Geneva convention rules.



I, too, am highly skeptical about how and where this virus originated.  Given the lack of cooperation from the Chinese government, I doubt we will ever know the truth.  

Insofar as the "speed" with which these vaccines were developed, and made available...that is probably a Good Thing, IMO.  Had the drug companies taken years to make these vaccines, and get full government approval, the current death toll would probably be several times greater than today....both here, and globally....and the daily death toll would be rising beyond what our hospitals and funeral parlors could keep up with.


----------



## Murrmurr

Don M. said:


> Insofar as the "speed" with which these vaccines were developed, and made available...that is probably a Good Thing, IMO.  Had the drug companies taken years to make these vaccines, and get full government approval, the current death toll would probably be several times greater than today....both here, and globally....and the daily death toll would be rising beyond what our hospitals and funeral parlors could keep up with.


That's exactly right. It's also the primary reason for vaccine reluctance. That, and the description of the mRna (in the vaccine) as an enzyme that converts a gene. Something that "alters your genes" is scary. And it sounds permanent.


----------



## Murrmurr

Don M. said:


> I, too, am highly skeptical about how and where this virus originated.  Given the lack of cooperation from the Chinese government, I doubt we will ever know the truth.
> 
> Insofar as the "speed" with which these vaccines were developed, and made available...that is probably a Good Thing, IMO.  *Had the drug companies taken years to make these vaccines*, and get full government approval, the current death toll would probably be several times greater than today....both here, and globally....and the daily death toll would be rising beyond what our hospitals and funeral parlors could keep up with.


We need to remember, though....this vaccine was already in the works for at least a decade, in response to SARS.


----------



## Murrmurr

WhatInThe said:


> When big pharma & medicine 'experts' talk, give interviews etc onething that's rarely mentioned is that those vaxxed were not tested for antibodies from a prior asymptomatic infection. Or noted they had a full blown symptomatic infection prior to the jab/s.
> 
> *How do they know wether the vax or natural immunity is preventing the virus in the vaxxed? Sounds like an important variable that's not included in many statistics/studies even with a footnote.*


I agree!

It's still being argued that 20-30 years ago doctors started over-prescribing antibiotics, ruining kids' immune systems. I never filled those Rx's for my kids. If they'd ever gotten sick enough to need antibiotics, I took them to the hospital. My youngest son got an infection in his knee when he was 5....inside, in the joint. Spent 4 days in hospital. But otherwise, for colds and stuff, they rested at home, got fluids and ate gramma's chicken soup, and were outside playing in a day or two.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Lara said:


> That makes 2 of us.


Uh oh! This is awkward!


----------



## WhatInThe

Murrmurr said:


> I agree!
> 
> It's still being argued that 20-30 years ago doctors started over-prescribing antibiotics, ruining kids' immune systems. I never filled those Rx's for my kids. If they'd ever gotten sick enough to need antibiotics, I took them to the hospital. My youngest son got an infection in his knee when he was 5....inside, in the joint. Spent 4 days in hospital. But otherwise, for colds and stuff, they rested at home, got fluids and ate gramma's chicken soup, and were outside playing in a day or two.


I see the schedule young people on from infancy through teens for vaxxes and it's outlandish. Maybe one vax won't adversely affect a person but dozens might. Same for adults especially with other conditions, medications and general health. Vaxxes or the disease are an attack on the body, the body just like a country can only fight so many wars.


----------



## Don M.

Murrmurr said:


> That's exactly right. It's also the primary reason for vaccine reluctance. That, and the description of the mRna (in the vaccine) as an enzyme that converts a gene. Something that "alters your genes" is scary. And it sounds permanent.



I'm sure there will be some lingering effects involving these vaccines.  But, that's the case for virtually Every prescription drug...just listen to the "disclaimers" on their TV ads.  Then, consider all the potentially harmful ingredients in most of the food we eat, anymore.  Our entire existence is a "crap shoot".  At my age, anything I can do to stay fairly fit and active for my remaining years is a Plus.  It appears that many of the people my age who have survived this virus wind up as little more than an invalid....my wish is to run hard right up to the very end....and if these shots help me to do so, here's my arm.


----------



## charry

I feel there will be huge problems with the after affects of the vaccines in years to come
It started with just vaccinating the over 80s , well fair enough, but vaccinating under 18s now....this is joke.........it was too quick to get a vaccination ready for use  ,   How long ? 2 months .....!!........we won’t be having it here.........


----------



## Mike

I agree that the vaccines are effective and are saving lives
all around the World, in the 1000s, maybe millions.

I was reading an article today in the paper written by the
chief advisor to our Government, he normally runs an ICU
at a London hospital, he said that of the 22 people in his
ICU beds, 14 were on ventilators and 90% were unvaccinated,
the 90% figure is the same in all hospitals in England, give or
take a small number.

Those who have not taken the vaccine for other than health
reasons, should get it as soon as possible.

If you don't, I sincerely hope that you also don't get the virus.

Personally I don't condemn anybody who doesn't want it for
whatever reason, but I think that, that is a bit like Russian Roulette,
with your own life.

Mike.


----------



## Alligatorob

charry said:


> I feel there will be huge problems with the after affects of the vaccines in years to come


What makes you think that?  

I am not being critical, just trying to figure out how people are thinking on these things.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it. I wish I could share the article link with you but I can't remember where I saw it. 

I guess that we might just have to wait years and years to find out for sure but for right now it seems to be working pretty well at preventing the spread of infection than before there was a vaccine. I, for one, think that that presently is remarkable.


----------



## charry

I just thing there will be terrible after affects in years to come, especially on the younger generation.........it takes years in development and approving vaccines , it’s a long process, normally about 10 to 15 years......
Just my opinion Alligatorob


----------



## charry

Chris P Bacon said:


> I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it. I wish I could share the article link with you but I can't remember where I saw it.
> 
> I guess that we might just have to wait years and years to find out for sure but for right now it seems to be working pretty well at preventing the spread of infection than before there was a vaccine. I, for one, think that that presently is rem


Have you had the jabs ?    Any reactions from it ?


----------



## charry

Chris P Bacon said:


> I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it. I wish I could share the article link with you but I can't remember where I saw it.
> 
> I guess that we might just have to wait years and years to find out for sure but for right now it seems to be working pretty well at preventing the spread of infection than before there was a vaccine. I, for one, think that that presently is remarkable.


Having the jabs havnt prevented the spread of infection , people are still getting  covid and passing it on and still dying in hospital, And they have had the JABS !


----------



## charry




----------



## squatting dog

Ever wonder why some of us question the "experts"?
Let's start with the CDC director Rochelle Walensky.

In mid May, Walensky said vaccinated Americans were protected and no longer need to mask or maintain social distance in many indoor and outdoor settings.

But now, a third booster shot is being floated, and that's not sitting well with many people. So, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky is using fear to convince people to get the third Covid shot.

Walensky on Wednesday said that people who received the Covid vaccine early on are at an increased risk for severe disease.   

Walensky continued, “Reports from our international colleagues, including Israel, suggest increased risk of SEVERE disease amongst those VACCINATED EARLY.”  

Walensky said the only way out is to get the Covid booster.  

So, now people who took the jab too early are being told they are super spreaders, which begs the question...when will the 4th Covid shot be rolled out, or the 5th etc.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> Have you had the jabs ?    Any reactions from it ?


Yes ma'am, I was injected April 2nd and again on April 30th, this year. I also was infected with the virus earlier in the year, mid-February. 

My reaction to it so far is that I haven't been re-infected, that I've noticed or been told.


----------



## Tom 86

"Don M"
  They did have hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets to treat people. in the beginning, & they got just a little sick like the flu.  Then the big drug manufacturers went to the government & said no do not use this we are making a vaccine.  This is per my P.C. Dr.

  This I know for a fact as this is what my P.C. Dr. gave me when I saw him a month after getting out of the hospital.  He said your lungs still look like popcorn so I'm going to prescribe the hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets for you as most Dr's knows this works but the government has our hands tied to not use it.  

  He said I don't always follow what the Government says, I know what works.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> Having the jabs havnt prevented the spread of infection , people are still getting  covid and passing it on and still dying in hospital, And they have had the JABS !


Yes ma'am, you're right. The spread of the virus hasn't been prevented, however the rate of spread has been slowed considerably so since vaccines became available. People do still get Covid, quite correct and many who do haven't been vaccinated at all. Some others do also get infected who did have the vaccination. But the vaccines were developed lasat year before these Covid variants began to spread. The vaccines were designed with the knowledge of the virus that was available at the time. I suspect that knowledge of the way the virus works, spreads and might be controlled changes on a daily, if not hourly basis. It is a worldwide problem, you know. 

Since more unvaccinated people are being infected NOW, the disease is mostly being passed on by those who choose to or have to remain unvaccinated. Yes, some who were vaccinated do become infected and may pass it on as well but these people became infected because they mostly were vaccinated with a vaccine that didn't take into account the variants that have become prevalent since the first vaccines were developed and distributed. That's why the need for boosters, to take into account for these new variants that are infecting people both jabbed and not jabbed. But given enough time for the hesitant to still not be vaccinated, there likely will be more variants of which the original and any boosters now being developed may not protect against. These are just regular vaccines. They don't figure out what variants may be yet to happen.

Those vaccinated do seem to have less severe symptoms and than their non-vaccinated counterparts. There also are fewer deaths among those who are infected after being vaccinated than among those who remain un-vaccinated. It's possible that 20 years down the road, something could appear that would be related to these vaccines but how many more people will become infected and die during that time due to the disease infecting anyone it can because it was never able to be eradicated because of people's fears. And how many of us in our senior years will be alive 20 years from now? Lots of people don't live to be 60 let alone the ones who live to be 80, 90 or even longer. But if infected, some people will die. Not all of them will be older and not all of them will be young either. But people are dying because of this disease. Our world was better off before it appeared and our world will be better off again, once it's under control. I believe vaccines help for that.


----------



## Irwin

Murrmurr said:


> That's exactly right. It's also the primary reason for vaccine reluctance. That, and the description of the mRna (in the vaccine) as an enzyme that converts a gene. Something that "alters your genes" is scary. And it sounds permanent.


Only it doesn't "alter a gene." It doesn't affect or interact with our DNA in any way.

mRNA never enters the nucleus of the cell, which is where our DNA (genetic material) is kept.​The cell breaks down and gets rid of the mRNA soon after it is finished using the instructions.​https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html​


----------



## Chris P Bacon

squatting dog said:


> Ever wonder why some of us question the "experts"?
> Let's start with the CDC director Rochelle Walensky.
> 
> In mid May, Walensky said vaccinated Americans were protected and no longer need to mask or maintain social distance in many indoor and outdoor settings.
> 
> But now, a third booster shot is being floated, and that's not sitting well with many people. So, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky is using fear to convince people to get the third Covid shot.
> 
> Walensky on Wednesday said that people who received the Covid vaccine early on are at an increased risk for severe disease.
> 
> Walensky continued, “Reports from our international colleagues, including Israel, suggest increased risk of SEVERE disease amongst those VACCINATED EARLY.”
> 
> Walensky said the only way out is to get the Covid booster.
> 
> So, now people who took the jab too early are being told they are super spreaders, which begs the question...when will the 4th Covid shot be rolled out, or the 5th etc.


As long as the virus can keep mutating, you're right, there may be a need for more boosters. These vaccines aren't like smart phones, they don't have AI to update them selves. Until everyone is either vaccinated or enough have developed imminity then more vaccines may be necessary. But these booster are developed on an even shorter time frame than the original vaccines were. People were wary because they thought the original vaccines were developed and released too quickly but with these variants, speed is of the essence. Not just to protect the vaccination willing but to also try to corral the spread of those being infected because they refuse to be vaccinated.

As long as people take a wait and see attitude or refuse the vaccine, it will be a part of the lives of all of us around the world. If enough people get vaccinated or if enough people develop immunity for contracting covid then maybe it will be under control. But as long as there is a single Covid cell out there it could be mutating into another variant more infectuous and possibly more deadly than the last.

I'm vaccinated and I'll get a booster when one becomes available. I had covid once, before I was vaccinated but I haven't had it since. To me, I think that's because I chose vaccination rather than argumentation. Good luck with whatever decision you make.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> I just thing there will be terrible after affects in years to come, especially on the younger generation.........it takes years in development and approving vaccines , it’s a long process, normally about 10 to 15 years......
> Just my opinion Alligatorob


But it doesn't take years for the virus to develop new and better ways of infecting the current population. It may be mutating right now as we type and read.


----------



## Tish

Thanks for the share Sunny!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Tom 86 said:


> "Don M"
> They did have hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets to treat people. in the beginning, & they got just a little sick like the flu.  Then the big drug manufacturers went to the government & said no do not use this we are making a vaccine.  This is per my P.C. Dr.
> 
> This I know for a fact as this is what my P.C. Dr. gave me when I saw him a month after getting out of the hospital.  He said your lungs still look like popcorn so I'm going to prescribe the hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets for you as most Dr's knows this works but the government has our hands tied to not use it.
> 
> He said I don't always follow what the Government says, I know what works.


I see lots of people who don't follow what the government says. They fly by me on the freeways even if im a few miles over the government imposed speed limit. Crooks and criminals don't always follow what the government says either. Many of them flout many of the laws that the government has put in place for our well being. I'm happy that your doc knows so much and that you have such trust in him but did you ever think of this - Not every doctor that graduates med school, graduates at the top of the class. 

Then too I know that you had health issues when you were vaccinated. You tried to do what you thought to be the right thing but it might have killed you. I'm glad that it didn't and I hope that none of these current or possibly yet to come variants will either. You just keep on having those birthdays, year after year and all will be fine.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Maybe if we could get all of these reasons for people being hesitant or refusing to be vaccinated put on CNN as "true and factual" those people who seem to believe that whatever is reported on CNN to be lies, they'd stop believing as they currently do just because it's on CNN. Reverse psychology maybe?


----------



## Murrmurr

WhatInThe said:


> *I see the schedule young people on from infancy through teens for vaxxes and it's outlandish.* Maybe one vax won't adversely affect a person but dozens might. Same for adults especially with other conditions, medications and general health. Vaxxes or the disease are an attack on the body, the body just like a country can only fight so many wars.


Yeah, that's worrisome. And, imo, a profit scheme.


----------



## Murrmurr

Tom 86 said:


> "Don M"
> They did have hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets to treat people. in the beginning, & they got just a little sick like the flu.  Then the big drug manufacturers went to the government & said no do not use this we are making a vaccine.  This is per my P.C. Dr.
> 
> This I know for a fact as this is what my P.C. Dr. gave me when I saw him a month after getting out of the hospital.  He said your lungs still look like popcorn so I'm going to prescribe the hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets for you as most Dr's knows this works but the government has our hands tied to not use it.
> 
> He said I don't always follow what the Government says, I know what works.


Good point. There are other available drugs, too, that have been studied multiple times and proved effective at preventing severe symptoms and hospitalization. Even so, these drugs and/or the studies keep getting discredited, doctors are being told not to include them in treatment protocol, and pharmacies are being cut off from the supplies and getting majorly hassled when they try to fill Rx's for these drugs.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> I just thing there will be terrible after affects in years to come, especially on the younger generation.........it takes years in development and approving vaccines , it’s a long process, normally about 10 to 15 years......
> Just my opinion Alligatorob


Charry, what do you suppose the side effects may be, 15-20 years down the road, for people who are infected with Covid _today_? I'm not sure that anyone knows that even if someone gets infected but recovers, what the long term effect will be for them. I think that anything that can be done to stop the progression NOW is worth the risk of what MIGHT or MIGHT NOT happen in 15-20 years. Other technologies and sciences will be developed in the meantime that people can think twice about or refuse by then I imagine, so maybe they'll be able to deal with any negative consequences if they develop or won't need to should none appear.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> Yes ma'am, I was injected April 2nd and again on April 30th, this year. I also was infected with the virus earlier in the year, mid-February.
> 
> My reaction to it so far is that I haven't been re-infected, that I've noticed or been told.


Much like people who got a flu shot saying, "I haven't had the flu for 5 years.
People tend to credit whatever they did or didn't do for a good result.
But I've never had a flu shot & I had the flu once - 39 years ago & never since, even after caring for family & friends with the flu & being exposed at work.


----------



## CarolfromTX

I believe this, which is why I’m over wearing a mask. Could I have a breakthrough case? Possibly. But having to go back to mask wearing will not be good for my mental well being. At all.  So I’ll take my chances, thanks.


----------



## Brookswood

WhatInThe said:


> I see the schedule young people on from infancy through teens for vaxxes and it's outlandish. Maybe one vax won't adversely affect a person but dozens might. Same for adults especially with other conditions, medications and general health. Vaxxes or the disease are an attack on the body, the body just like a country can only fight so many wars.


This does not make sense to me.    

There are many different types of viruses, bacteria and parasites that attack our bodies every year.  I would think that even a few dozen vaccine shots is a very small number compared to all the things out in the world that attack us and try to bring us down.  Fortunately, our bodies resist most quite well.   When they can't or when the consequences of getting sick are very bad, vaccines can help us build our defenses.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Murrmurr said:


> Yeah, that's worrisome. And, imo, a profit scheme.


But profit isn't a dirty word is it? Isn't that what capitalism is all about? These companies making the vaccines aren't charities, after all.


----------



## win231

squatting dog said:


> Ever wonder why some of us question the "experts"?
> Let's start with the CDC director Rochelle Walensky.
> 
> In mid May, Walensky said vaccinated Americans were protected and no longer need to mask or maintain social distance in many indoor and outdoor settings.
> 
> But now, a third booster shot is being floated, and that's not sitting well with many people. So, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky is using fear to convince people to get the third Covid shot.
> 
> Walensky on Wednesday said that people who received the Covid vaccine early on are at an increased risk for severe disease.
> 
> Walensky continued, “Reports from our international colleagues, including Israel, suggest increased risk of SEVERE disease amongst those VACCINATED EARLY.”
> 
> Walensky said the only way out is to get the Covid booster.
> 
> So, now people who took the jab too early are being told they are super spreaders, which begs the question...when will the 4th Covid shot be rolled out, or the 5th etc.


Such logic is sure to cause the non thinkers & the _"I'll take any vaccine or drug I'm told to take"_ crowd to bury their heads in the sand.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> But profit isn't a dirty word is it? Isn't that what capitalism is all about? These companies making the vaccines aren't charities, after all.


No, nothing wrong with profit....unless the product they're profiting from negatively affects health.


----------



## Brookswood

60% of my state is now fully vaccinated. About 70% in my city. Not bad.


----------



## win231

Alligatorob said:


> Thanks for the link, but I understand those who don't believe CNN on things like this.  I am not sure they are lying, but they do not do a good job of presenting actually useful information.  They prefer the dramatic headline to real news...  I don't trust Fox or most of the other news outlets either.
> 
> One problem in this article is the claim that "_99.999% of fully vaccinated Americans have not had a deadly Covid-19 breakthrough case_", that just seems too high to believe.  However even if the number were lower it would be an important fact, we need reliable information.  To CNN's credit they do show some statistics to defend the claim, 1,263 deaths out of a vaccinated population of 163,000,000 is in fact a death rate of 0.00077%, suggesting that 99.999% of the vaccinated don't die.  However without knowing the % of the unvaccinated population that die its not a very useful statistic.  Even assuming CNN's numbers are right, and they may be, they fail in not putting them into useful perspective.
> 
> That low number does not seem to jive with the anecdotal stories we hear, and not just from the news media.  I do know one man who died of Covid after getting two shots, and have heard claims of a lot more.  0.00077% is up there with the number of big $ lottery winners, and I don't know many of those.  I believe good statistics more than the anecdotal stories, problem is I am not sure how good these statistics are.  At least the one man I knew did die after being inoculated, that I am pretty sure of.
> 
> This is important and we need to get it right.  I do think folks ought to get vaccinated, even with the mixed bag of information we now have, I am.  But I can understand with such confusing "information" why some are hesitant.  I believe better more reliable data and information would result in more people making informed decisions, better decisions.


They need to change that silly "99.99%" number.  It only works for people who have brains like sponges - that soak up everything sold to them.
That number is used for everything - _"This spray cleaner kills 99.99% of germs & viruses, including Covid."_


----------



## Alligatorob

win231 said:


> They need to change that silly "99.99%" number.


I agree, claims like that don't help at all.  Even if true its not a very useful number.  I did some quick, and no doubt inaccurate, calculations to illustrate.

Assuming the population of vaccinated people is only representative of the past 90 days, I think this is a reasonable WAG at an average.  The 1,263 works out to about 14 deaths/day.  It looks to me like the total Covid death rate has averaged around 600 deaths/day in that same timeframe, again a WAG (https://www.google.com/search?q=us+...UKEwjqo5680cTyAhVYkWoFHXXWAE4QyNoBKAF6BAgPEAc).  

Assuming about half the population has been vaccinated this would work out to a death rate for the unvaccinated at about 20 times the vaccinated.  Putting that into % it works out to a death rate about 95% lower for vaccinated.  Still impressive, but a lot more believable than 99.999%.

No one should believe or quote my numbers they are at best a WAG (Wild Ass Guess).  Only intended to make the point that what CNN reported was nearly useless.  What needs to happen is for some good unbiased statisticians and epidemiologists to look at the numbers and give us some real useful analysis.  That would let folks make more informed and intelligent decisions about the vaccine. 

Of course 99.999% makes a better headline than 95%...  And not doing the work necessary to be meaningful is a lot easier...


----------



## charry

win231 said:


> Much like people who got a flu shot saying, "I haven't had the flu for 5 years.
> People tend to credit whatever they did or didn't do for a good result.
> But I've never had a flu shot & I had the flu once - 39 years ago & never since, even after caring for family & friends with the flu & being exposed at work.


I’ve never had the flu jab.....my dad had it every year for the past 10 yrs ,and he never stopped sniffing and blowing his nose, and he had loads of colds !


----------



## charry

CarolfromTX said:


> I believe this, which is why I’m over wearing a mask. Could I have a breakthrough case? Possibly. But having to go back to mask wearing will not be good for my mental well being. At all.  So I’ll take my chances, thanks.


I agree with you carol


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> I’ve never had the flu jab.....my dad had it every year for the past 10 yrs ,and he never stopped sniffing and blowing his nose, and he had loads of colds !


Well, I don't think that this is "the flu" because people never seemed to get so upset about just the flu. How about polio or smallpox? Were you vaccinated against those and if you were, have yo contracted either? Some people smoke cigarettes for 90 years and never get cancer but I'm not willing to take chances like that. And "the flu" doesn't spread worldwide as Covid has done. If you don't want to be vaccinated, up to you. You might not get it, then again, you might. I can't see into the future any better than you but given the chance to protect myself, I feel better knowing that I've done what I can to protect not only me but anyone else I may come into contact with or that you may come into contact with were you to come near to me.


----------



## Brookswood

I do not believe CNN, FOX News, MSNBC, etc. have much if any credibility.  They have become *merchants of outrage*.  

Here are Jim Lehrer's rules of Journalism  If you don't know who Jim Lehrer was, look him up.



> Jim Lehrer’s Rules of Journalism
> I practice journalism in accordance with the following guidelines:
> 
> • Do nothing I cannot defend.
> • Do not distort, lie, slant or hype.
> • Do not falsify facts or make up quotes.
> • Cover, write and present every story with the care I would want if the story
> were about me.
> • Assume there is at least one other side or version to every story.
> • Assume the viewer is as smart and caring and good a person as I am.
> • Assume the same about all people on whom I report.
> • Assume everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
> • Assume personal lives are a private matter until a legitimate turn in the
> story mandates otherwise.
> • Carefully separate opinion and analysis from straight news stories and
> clearly label it as such.
> • Do not use anonymous sources or blind quotes except on rare and
> monumental occasions.  No one should ever be allowed to attack another
> anonymously.
> • Do not broadcast profanity or the end result of violence unless it is an
> integral and necessary part of the story and/or crucial to its understanding.
> • Acknowledge that objectivity may be impossible but fairness never is.
> • Journalists who are reckless with facts and reputations should be
> disciplined by their employers.
> • My viewers have a right to know what principles guide my work and the
> process I use in their practice.
> • I am not in the entertainment business.
> 
> -Jim Lehrer



https://ethics.utep.edu/images/Jim_Lehrer_Rules_of_Journalism.pdf


----------



## Alligatorob

Brookswood said:


> Jim Lehrer's rules of Journalism


Very impressive, I guess that's pretty much out the window these days.  

I however believe we are as much to blame as the media.  The way they make money and stay in business is by having a good audience, and it seems we would rather have simple flashy headlines and sound bites than useful news.  The only real way to fight this is to turn the TV or radio or whatever off.  I try but am probably not as good at it as I should be.


----------



## charry

Chris P Bacon said:


> Well, I don't think that this is "the flu" because people never seemed to get so upset about just the flu. How about polio or smallpox? Were you vaccinated against those and if you were, have yo contracted either? Some people smoke cigarettes for 90 years and never get cancer but I'm not willing to take chances like that. And "the flu" doesn't spread worldwide as Covid has done. If you don't want to be vaccinated, up to you. You might not get it, then again, you might. I can't see into the future any better than you but given the chance to protect myself, I feel better knowing that I've done what I can to protect not only me but anyone else I may come into contact with or that you may come into contact with were you to come near to me.


Its just a personal opinion Chris ....
You have yours , and I have mine !! 

P.s ....about protecting others !! Don’t preach me this.......
With the first lockdown 18months Ago, if people had abided by the restrictions then, we would NOT  be in the situation that we are in now......

I don’t come into contact  with hardly anyone, as my husband is housebound, making me housebound , and have been in this situation for 9yrs now , since his stroke ...


----------



## Brookswood

The big problem comparing the Covid vaccine to the flu vaccine, IMO, is that the Covid vaccine is not yet available to everybody. We have an entire population of children under 12 who can't get the vaccine at this time.   Flu shots are usually available to school age kids and even pre-schoolers. (Get them or not, they are available.  There is no choice for our under 12 kids regarding getting the Covid vaccine. )  The early versions of Covid were apparently not a significant problem as children did not get it or pass it along very easily. But, Delta seems to be a game changer.   Children are getting it and in significantly more numbers. School is about to start, and so far nobody knows a good way to keep Delta from spreading in the under 12 yo school environment.

People can argue the pros and cons, rights and responsibilities all they want in regards to adults .  If non vaccinated under 12 children get Covid thanks to unvaccinated adults who could get the vaccine but don't, there will be Heck to pay.   Paper Bear will be angry and so will Mama Bear.  It won't be pretty.

I hope I am terribly wrong. But, honestly, I don't think I am at this point. We will see what happens.


----------



## squatting dog

Chris P Bacon said:


> Well, I don't think that this is "the flu" because people never seemed to get so upset about just the flu. How about polio or smallpox? Were you vaccinated against those and if you were, have yo contracted either?


There's one HUGE difference between the polio and smallpox vaccine that you are overlooking...

The purpose of a vaccine is to inoculate the patient against being able to contract a particular disease. Foe instance, you get the polio vaccine to ensure you do not get polio. Same for smallpox.

I am not offering medical advice. You and your doctor should make the decision whether or not to get the vaccine. But it is essential that you understand that Dr. Fauci and the CDC are now on the record (as of today 4/13/21) stating that the vaccine does NOT prevent Covid. 

The FDA flat out states that the vaccine is NOT APPROVED.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Okay, thanks for that info. Whatever is keeping vaccinated people from being infected at the same rates as they were isn’t due to magic, or at least I don’t think so. I’ll look for Dr Fauci’s and the CDC’s comments. I have my own theories about what I’ll find but for me, I’d rather trust what seems to be working than the advice of someone who has no experience in medicine. Vaccinated people seem to be getting infected less often and for me, that’s a good thing. The fewer cases there are, the better I think we all will be. Thanks for taking the time to consider what I wrote. I now will consider your words too. Enjoy the evening!


----------



## squatting dog

It's all good. However, I'd keep in mind that Dr. Anthony Fauci, is not a virologist, and Virology is a science.

Intelligent decisions on countermeasures require hard data, but doctors such as Dr.Fauci have been “scaring the hell out of people and watching curves based on projections based on meaningless numbers.” The most important fact about COVID-19, its true mortality rate, is the number who die of the virus divided by the number infected by it. No algorithms. Simple arithmetic. None of that for Fauci, who has taken up coronavirus prophecy.
Cheers.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

squatting dog said:


> There's one HUGE difference between the polio and smallpox vaccine that you are overlooking...
> 
> The purpose of a vaccine is to inoculate the patient against being able to contract a particular disease. Foe instance, you get the polio vaccine to ensure you do not get polio. Same for smallpox.
> 
> I am not offering medical advice. You and your doctor should make the decision whether or not to get the vaccine. But it is essential that you understand that Dr. Fauci and the CDC are now on the record (as of today 4/13/21) stating that the vaccine does NOT prevent Covid.
> 
> The FDA flat out states that the vaccine is NOT APPROVED.


Much as I thought, the vaccine isn’t effective, if I understand what I read here (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/05/dr-...orse-amid-covid-delta-surge-unvaccinated.html) because a new, unplanned for variant has taken hold because there was/is a lag time between when the original vaccine was developed and it was able to be distributed.

This new delta strain that Fauci speaks of the vaccine offering no protection for developed after the original vaccine was developed and deployed. That doesn’t make the vaccine a failure, it make the vaccine obsolete becsuse too many people waited too long to get vaccinated. In the meantime, new vaccines are in the works but new strains may also be in the works as well because  people are just too something or other to get vaccinated. I understand and accept the limitations and the causation for the lack of protection. But I do believe that the vaccine is effective against pre-delta variant versions.

I’d not be surprised if we see many more variants and that’s sad because people are so untrusting. That and so many armchair experts are saying things that just aren’t so. You believe what you want yo believe and I’ll believe what actually makes sense. Once a person has been fooled or tricked into believing something untrue, it’s nearly impossible to get them to become unfooled. This is so with me as well but the way I interpret the information I have or thst is shared with me, just doesn’t add up.


----------



## win231

Chris P Bacon said:


> Much as I thought, the vaccine isn’t effective, if I understand what I read here (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/05/dr-...orse-amid-covid-delta-surge-unvaccinated.html) because a new, unplanned for variant has taken hold because there was/is a lag time between when the original vaccine was developed and it was able to be distributed.
> 
> This new delta strain that Fauci speaks of the vaccine offering no protection for developed after the original vaccine was developed and deployed. That doesn’t make the vaccine a failure, it make the vaccine obsolete becsuse too many people waited too long to get vaccinated. In the meantime, new vaccines are in the works but new strains may also be in the works as well because  people are just too something or other to get vaccinated. I understand and accept the limitations and the causation for the lack of protection. But I do believe that the vaccine is effective against pre-delta variant versions.
> 
> I’d not be surprised if we see many more variants and that’s sad because people are so untrusting. That and so many armchair experts are saying things that just aren’t so. You believe what you want yo believe and I’ll believe what actually makes sense. Once a person has been fooled or tricked into believing something untrue, it’s nearly impossible to get them to become unfooled. This is so with me as well but the way I interpret the information I have or thst is shared with me, just doesn’t add up.


You are very creative when it comes to blaming people for what medicine can't do.


----------



## squatting dog

Since I hear a lot about someone not wearing a mask leaves open the possibility of being asymptomatic and passing on the virus, I thought I'd investigate this a wee bit more. What I found was an Interesting study conducted in April of 2021. Briefly....
In conclusion, our study suggests that asymptomatic cases are unlikely to contribute substantially to the spread of SARS-CoV-2. COVID-19
The fact that we did not detect any laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 transmission from asymptomatic case-patients is in line with multiple studies.   
This falls in line with the fact that there is yet to be  documented asymptomatic transmission.


----------



## Alligatorob

squatting dog said:


> The most important fact about COVID-19, its true mortality rate, is the number who die of the virus divided by the number infected by it. No algorithms. Simple arithmetic.


Absolutely, I would just add the rate with and without vaccine.  We seem to have mostly divided up into the pro and anti vaccination factions, that is a shame.  I think we all ought to be in the let's figure it out faction...

Of course the calculation isn't all simple arithmetic, you need to take into account the different reporting criteria and accuracy for Covid deaths, the different characteristics of the inoculated vs uninoculated population and so on.  That takes a bit of epidemiological and statistical expertise and time and effort.  I don't believe its the effort that keeps this from happening, the problem is it probably won't lead to a simple story and dramatic headlines.  Neither of the polarized factions see a clear win in doing it.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

*FDA approves Pfizer vaccine**   *​


----------



## Butterfly

Tom 86 said:


> I NEVER believe anything on CNN.    Interestingly, the Conav-19 cases in hospitals have gone up to over 4,000 a week in our State.  The interesting & what Dr's are trying to figure out.  People that GOT both shots after 4 months or so they end up in the hospitals.  They have beds in the halls.  Not real bad cases of Conav-19 but they have breathing problems enough to put them in the hospitals.
> 
> I can attest to this as I got my shot in January.  4 months later I was in the hospital with Conav-19.   They are trying to find out what's in the shots that are making people sick after 4 months.





squatting dog said:


> There's one HUGE difference between the polio and smallpox vaccine that you are overlooking...
> 
> The purpose of a vaccine is to inoculate the patient against being able to contract a particular disease. Foe instance, you get the polio vaccine to ensure you do not get polio. Same for smallpox.
> 
> I am not offering medical advice. You and your doctor should make the decision whether or not to get the vaccine. But it is essential that you understand that Dr. Fauci and the CDC are now on the record (as of today 4/13/21) stating that the vaccine does NOT prevent Covid.
> 
> The FDA flat out states that the vaccine is NOT APPROVED.


post deleted.


----------



## Chris P Bacon

squatting dog said:


> The FDA flat out states that the vaccine is NOT APPROVED.


@squatting dog You might want to take a look at my post #66. Things change _*FAST*_!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

Chris P Bacon said:


> Uh oh! This is awkward!
> View attachment 179749


@Lara Thanks for not taking offense, Lara, as truly I meant none.


----------



## squatting dog

Chris P Bacon said:


> @squatting dog You might want to take a look at my post #66. Things change _*FAST*_!


----------



## Chris P Bacon

charry said:


> I don’t come into contact  with hardly anyone, as my husband is housebound, making me housebound , and have been in this situation for 9yrs now , since his stroke ...


@charry That's unfortunate for the both of you but of course, until you shared that, I had no way of knowing. Are they no agencies that would at least look after your husband occasionally to give you some respite? Your well being might be at stake too if you can't move about yourself. Here in the US there are places that do care for people in situations like this but where you are, I have no clue. One day and someway, things will get better and vaccinations will likely be the least of your worries then. Things always tend to improve. I didn't mean to upset you. You sound like you have enough to be upset about as it is. If my opinion isn't yours, that's okay. It would be a boring world if it were always only light or always dark all the time. I hope life will improve for you sooner rather than later but I _guarantee_ that it will improve in time. Namaste.


----------



## Don M.

The Pfzier vaccine was granted FDA approval this morning, and the Moderna and J&J vaccines are expected to receive FDA approval within the next 4 to 6 weeks.  
Pfzier has already chosen a "name" for its vaccine....Comirnaty....and with FDA approval And a name, we can probably expect to see TV commercials soon.  When/if the EUA expires for these vaccines, we can probably expect the prices to skyrocket.  Anyone interested in getting the vaccines would probably be well advised to do so in the few months, before the drug companies begin to pad their profits.


----------



## charry

Chris P Bacon said:


> @charry That's unfortunate for the both of you but of course, until you shared that, I had no way of knowing. Are they no agencies that would at least look after your husband occasionally to give you some respite? Your well being might be at stake too if you can't move about yourself. Here in the US there are places that do care for people in situations like this but where you are, I have no clue. One day and someway, things will get better and vaccinations will likely be the least of your worries then. Things always tend to improve. I didn't mean to upset you. You sound like you have enough to be upset about as it is. If my opinion isn't yours, that's okay. It would be a boring world if it were always only light or always dark all the time. I hope life will improve for you sooner rather than later but I _guarantee_ that it will improve in time. Namaste.


No offence taken Chris.......yes there are lots of volunteers and organisations and respite over here, but I prefer to look after my husband myself.......
We ve never been  apart for 36yrs, he’s my soul mate , 
This has devastated us both, but that’s life I guess.......
Thankyou for your concern and care .......I appreciate it ......


----------



## Brookswood

https://www.newyorker.com/science/m...ou-already-had-a-breakthrough-covid-infection

The above link is to an article that explains how vaccines work to protect us from the suffering an infection may cause.    They cannot guarantee no cell in your body will be invaded by the virus. They cannot guarantee a person will not get a mild case of the disease.  But, they usually help the immune system fight the virus so the infections does not become powerful enough to badly hurt us.   That is the goal. Not perfection, but to help our own body's immune system eliminate the infection before it becomes powerful enough to really hurt us. Or kill us.


> Still, Rasmussen said, “When you’ve been immunized and get an ‘infection’ ”—she raised her hands in scare quotes—“or, I should say, when you test positive by P.C.R.—that doesn’t mean there’s a robust viral infection raging in your body. Even if some cells do get infected, other parts of the immune system spring into action and stop it from spreading.” She went on, “Is that an infection? That’s a philosophical question. Technically, some cells got infected and the virus started to replicate. *But the immune system prevented you from getting sick and shedding copious amounts of virus that can go on to infect someone else.*”





> The immune system has multiple specialized units that can be deployed strategically and dynamically,” she said. “The virus has some tricks up its sleeve, but, compared to the human immune system, it doesn’t have as much at its disposal. It’s like ‘Lord of the Rings’ or ‘Troy’: one army usually kicks the other’s ass. *If you’re vaccinated, your immune system is ready, it’s better equipped, and it usually kicks the virus’s ass.”*



No vaccine is perfect and there are times when a vaccine will not help enough. Never let the perfect become the enemy of the good.


----------



## Brookswood

squatting dog said:


> Since I hear a lot about someone not wearing a mask leaves open the possibility of being asymptomatic and passing on the virus, I thought I'd investigate this a wee bit more. What I found was an Interesting study conducted in April of 2021. Briefly....
> In conclusion, our study suggests that asymptomatic cases are unlikely to contribute substantially to the spread of SARS-CoV-2. COVID-19
> The fact that we did not detect any laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 transmission from asymptomatic case-patients is in line with multiple studies.
> This falls in line with the fact that there is yet to be  documented asymptomatic transmission.



Can you provide a link to this April 2021 study?  I would like to see if it included the Delta variant.


----------



## PamfromTx

MarciKS said:


> Thanks for the share Sunny


LOL @ you avatar @MarciKS


----------



## win231

What's amazing is, the less effective the vaccine is shown to be, the stronger the sales pitch gets.


----------



## Irwin

Here's an interesting video about the anti-vax crowd:


----------



## Irwin

Here's a story about an antivaxxer who killed her 15 month old child, to save it, I guess.     She also stabbed her teenage daughter and her husband.

A Northwest Miami-Dade woman accused of stabbing her husband and teenage child also submerged her infant daughter in a bathtub during a bizarre baptism while screaming about Jesus and worrying that COVID-19 was coming to kill her family, according to multiple law enforcement sources.​https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article253698788.html​


----------



## MarciKS

Judas Priest. *SMH*


----------



## MarciKS

what a waste of a human life and it wasn't necessary


----------



## Ladybj

suds00 said:


> i don't understand why people are against the vaccination.it seems like they believe there is a conspiracy to ie about the facts


There are some people with underlying conditions and were told by their physician not to take the vaccine.  Not everyone has a conspiracy... they are concerned about their health just as everyone else is who decide to take the vaccine.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it. I wish I could share the article link with you but I can't remember where I saw it.
> 
> I guess that we might just have to wait years and years to find out for sure but for right now it seems to be working pretty well at preventing the spread of infection than before there was a vaccine. I, for one, think that that presently is remarkable.


Great to hear its remarkable for you but for many others.. not so remarkable.  Now the booster shot starts next month.  How does all this tie in with people on different medications, underlying conditions...


----------



## Don M.

Chris P Bacon said:


> I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it.


No one knows what kind lingering side effects this virus, or the vaccines, will have....months or years from now.  However, I had a somewhat unique experience yesterday that may be a clue.  

While doing some chores yesterday, I disturbed a wasps nest, and they swarmed around me, and one of them gave me a good bite on my arm.  It felt like someone had driven a nail into my arm.  This isn't the first time I've been bitten by a wasp or yellowjacket, and I figured I would be in for some problems.  I even keep an EpiPen in the house after I got nailed by a swarm of yellowjackets a few years ago.

I went back into the house, washed my arm, and applied some antibiotic cream to the bite.  In years past, the bite would swell up, with a big red spot, and I would have a few days of pain.  However, as of today, no swelling, no red spot, and just a minor amount of "itching", which I'm keeping to a minimum with some Cortisone 10.  

Is this just a "quirk"....or is it possible that the Covid shots I got earlier this year might be improving my immune system???


----------



## Jeweltea

Irwin said:


> Here's an interesting video about the anti-vax crowd:


This is so sad and could have been prevented.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> Here's a story about an antivaxxer who killed her 15 month old child, to save it, I guess.     She also stabbed her teenage daughter and her husband.
> 
> A Northwest Miami-Dade woman accused of stabbing her husband and teenage child also submerged her infant daughter in a bathtub during a bizarre baptism while screaming about Jesus and worrying that COVID-19 was coming to kill her family, according to multiple law enforcement sources.​https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article253698788.html​


Yes, one of the side effects of not getting the Covid vaccine is an overwhelming urge to commit murder.
I suggest you chat with your doctor about changing your meds.


----------



## Irwin

Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian notified employees Wednesday that they will face $200 monthly increases on their health insurance premiums starting Nov. 1 if they aren't vaccinated against Covid-19, citing steep costs to cover employees who are hospitalized with the virus.​https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/25/del...-200-fees-if-they-dont-get-covid-vaccine.html​
Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are costing the rest of us a lot of money. It's about time they had to start paying the cost themselves.


----------



## Alligatorob

Irwin said:


> Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are costing the rest of us a lot of money. It's about time they had to start paying the cost themselves.


I understand the logic and would want everyone vaccinated who can safely do it...

However I don't know about this.  We do lots of things to our bodies that drive up health costs.  To extend the logic smokers, overweight people, heavy drinkers, and the list goes on, should also have to pay higher insurance costs.  Kind of a slippery slope...


----------



## Don M.

Irwin said:


> Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are costing the rest of us a lot of money. It's about time they had to start paying the cost themselves.​



Peoples bad health habits cause at least Half of our health care costs, and insurance premiums....and this virus is only going to cause those costs to continue to rise.  Smoking, Obesity, alcohol addiction, etc., are All conditions which can be avoided.  Refusing to get vaccinated is resulting in billions of dollars of costs at the hospitals, etc., and it is just a question of time before we all see our premiums rising, and will certainly hasten the day when Medicare/Medicaid runs out of funds.


----------



## win231

Irwin said:


> Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian notified employees Wednesday that they will face $200 monthly increases on their health insurance premiums starting Nov. 1 if they aren't vaccinated against Covid-19, citing steep costs to cover employees who are hospitalized with the virus.​https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/25/del...-200-fees-if-they-dont-get-covid-vaccine.html​
> Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are costing the rest of us a lot of money. It's about time they had to start paying the cost themselves.


How do you feel about drug addiction - like the Opioid  crisis?  Should doctors pay the cost, since they're largely responsible for it?


----------



## MrPants

win231 said:


> How do you feel about drug addiction - like the Opioid  crisis?  Should doctors pay the cost, since they're largely responsible for it?


Actually no. They're not going after doctors who prescribed them. There have been, and continues to be numerous lawsuits against various pharma companies who manufactured and aggressively marketed opioids and are seen to be the real promoters of their use in the medical community. 
J&J, for instance, no longer distributes opioid products (within the United States) after getting spanked real good (financially) by the attorney general of New York - $230 million dollars to be paid out over 9 years.
So yes, there are repercussions for acting in an irresponsible way. Same thing happened in years gone by with Big Tobacco companies world wide who have been successfully sued for billions due to the negative health effects cause by their products.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/26/jj-...-in-230-million-settlement-with-new-york.html


----------



## win231

Murrmurr said:


> I agree!
> 
> It's still being argued that 20-30 years ago doctors started over-prescribing antibiotics, ruining kids' immune systems. I never filled those Rx's for my kids. If they'd ever gotten sick enough to need antibiotics, I took them to the hospital. My youngest son got an infection in his knee when he was 5....inside, in the joint. Spent 4 days in hospital. But otherwise, for colds and stuff, they rested at home, got fluids and ate gramma's chicken soup, and were outside playing in a day or two.


No house-call doctor with his black bag showing up with his miracle antibiotic syringe  like I had?


----------



## suds00

Ladybj said:


> There are some people with underlying conditions and were told by their physician not to take the vaccine.  Not everyone has a conspiracy... they are concerned about their health just as everyone else is who decide to take the vaccine.


the vaccine is approved by the fda for people with pre-existing conditions.many un-vaccinated are ill and wish they had taken the vaccine.


----------



## win231

MrPants said:


> Actually no. They're not going after doctors who prescribed them. There have been, and continues to be numerous lawsuits against various pharma companies who manufactured and aggressively marketed opioids and are seen to be the real promoters of their use in the medical community.
> J&J, for instance, no longer distributes opioid products (within the United States) after getting spanked real good (financially) by the attorney general of New York - $230 million dollars to be paid out over 9 years.
> So yes, there are repercussions for acting in an irresponsible way. Same thing happened in years gone by with Big Tobacco companies world wide who have been successfully sued for billions due to the negative health effects cause by their products.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/26/jj-...-in-230-million-settlement-with-new-york.html


They're not going after drug-pushing doctors.  *That is exactly what's wrong. * Doctors know better than anyone else when they're creating drug addicts, but they're in it for the money & perks they get from drug companies & they couldn't care less.
Steven Tyler (Aerosmith's lead singer) was a guest on Dr. Oz & he had some rather interesting things to say.  Dr. Oz was discussing his drug rehab with him.
Tyler said, _"You know who's causing most of the drug addiction?_ _DOCTORS."_
He then described how he saw his doctor for another issue & on the way out of his office, the doctor says, _"Hey, Steve....if you're having trouble sleeping, I can give ya something."  So.......the doctor KNOWS his patient is in drug rehab & he's pushing drugs on him.  _Like they do with celebrities - wealthy celebrities like Michael Jackson, Elvis, Heath Ledger, etc.  When they're found dead, there is usually a big stash of Rx drugs.
Dr. Oz pretended to be shocked & said,_ "Wow....this really bothers me."_


----------



## MrPants

win231 said:


> They're not going after drug-pushing doctors.  *That is exactly what's wrong. * Doctors know better than anyone else when they're creating drug addicts, but they're in it for the money & perks they get from drug companies & they couldn't care less.
> Steven Tyler (Aerosmith's lead singer) was a guest on Dr. Oz & he had some rather interesting things to say.  Dr. Oz was discussing his drug rehab with him.
> Tyler said, _"You know who's causing most of the drug addiction?_ _DOCTORS."_
> He then described how he saw his doctor for another issue & on the way out of his office, the doctor says, _"Hey, Steve....if you're having trouble sleeping, I can give ya something."  So.......the doctor KNOWS his patient is in drug rehab & he's pushing drugs on him.  _Like they do with celebrities - wealthy celebrities like Michael Jackson, Elvis, Heath Ledger, etc.  When they're found dead, there is usually a big stash of Rx drugs.
> Dr. Oz pretended to be shocked & said,_ "Wow....this really bothers me."_


I agree that the Doctors are a huge part of the issue - no question but, fact remains they went after big pharma instead. Perhaps it's easier to sue a few huge, very rich corporations rather than thousands of not quite as wealthy Dr.'s?


----------



## Irwin

Alligatorob said:


> I understand the logic and would want everyone vaccinated who can safely do it...
> 
> However I don't know about this.  We do lots of things to our bodies that drive up health costs.  To extend the logic smokers, overweight people, heavy drinkers, and the list goes on, should also have to pay higher insurance costs.  Kind of a slippery slope...


They should have to pay higher insurance premiums. If you have an unhealthy lifestyle, you should bear the additional costs — not the rest of us.


----------



## Jennina

Irwin said:


> Here's a story about an antivaxxer who killed her 15 month old child, to save it, I guess.     She also stabbed her teenage daughter and her husband.
> 
> A Northwest Miami-Dade woman accused of stabbing her husband and teenage child also submerged her infant daughter in a bathtub during a bizarre baptism while screaming about Jesus and worrying that COVID-19 was coming to kill her family, according to multiple law enforcement sources.​https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article253698788.html​





squatting dog said:


> It's all good. However, I'd keep in mind that Dr. Anthony Fauci, is not a virologist, and Virology is a science.
> 
> Intelligent decisions on countermeasures require hard data, but doctors such as Dr.Fauci have been “scaring the hell out of people and watching curves based on projections based on meaningless numbers.” The most important fact about COVID-19, its true mortality rate, is the number who die of the virus divided by the number infected by it. No algorithms. Simple arithmetic. None of that for Fauci, who has taken up coronavirus prophecy.
> Cheers.


This reminds me of the Axios interview with Trump. One was talking about mortality rate. The other kept insisting on case fatality rate. 

Im curious why you prefer CFR because from what I understand CFR is the one that tends to overestimate the death rate.  
To cite an example, if, say, the total population is 100 and 10 are confirmed cases and 1 died;   the CFR would be 10% while the mortality rate is 1%. 

Moreover, the number of individuals diagnosed isn't equal to the number of individuals who actually have Covid so the accuracy of the  denominator is questionable.  

Not really well versed on these things, but just putting in my two cents worth.

Moving on to something more expensive, here's a million dollar question for you - Who's your Dr. Fauci?


----------



## Jennina

Irwin said:


> People are against the covid vaccine and wearing facemasks because they don't want to be ostracized from their social groups, and they fear that's what would happen if they didn't go with the flow.


And there are people who publicly oppose the vaccine and yet they're fully vaccinated.


----------



## Ladybj

charry said:


> I’ve never had the flu jab.....my dad had it every year for the past 10 yrs ,and he never stopped sniffing and blowing his nose, and he had loads of colds !


The same with my hubby.  He gets the flu shot every year and always sniffling and has a cough.  A friend of mine shared with me that several of her friends get the flu shot every year and get colds every year.  However people do what is best for them.


----------



## Ladybj

suds00 said:


> the vaccine is approved by the fda for people with pre-existing conditions.many un-vaccinated are ill and wish they had taken the vaccine.


Approved by FDA   - FDA has not seen my medical records nor anyone else. I regret taking the Flu vaccine years ago. However, only took it once, and has not had the flu as of yet at the age of 61.


----------



## Jennina

charry said:


> I just thing there will be terrible after affects in years to come, especially on the younger generation.........it takes years in development and approving vaccines , it’s a long process, normally about 10 to 15 years......
> Just my opinion Alligatorob


I get what youre saying. I was vaccine hesitant for the very same reason you mentioned. But one day it dawned on me. Why  was I  more afraid of the UNKNOWN and UNFOUNDED  long term negative side  effects of the vaccine when I should be more afraid of the KNOWN immediate and long term side effects of Covid.  It was like I was afraid of an imagined ghost in the future when there's  a monster staring me in the eye in the present. So, I got vaccinated. 

Do what you think is right for you. Keep searching for the info. But stay away from sources that declare war on everything else except Covid, the enemy that poses clear and present danger. 

Stay healthy and safe.


----------



## Devi

I found this interesting:
Scientists: Fully vaccinated carry 251 times the Covid viral load as unvaccinated
https://www.worldtribune.com/scient...1-times-the-covid-viral-load-as-unvaccinated/

Quick snippet:
"The researchers, who detailed their findings in a paper by the prestigious Oxford University Clinical Research Group published Aug. 10 in The Lancet, found that while the jab moderates symptoms of infection, it also allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into pre-symptomatic superspreaders."


----------



## ManjaroKDE

Great reasoning, @Jennina.  This is not the end of it.  The residual effects of the virus will be with us for many years to come.  It's been 66 years since the polio epidemic was arrested but me and others suffering from 'PPS' still have our problems .  Wait till OSHA, the insurance companies and lawyers get their day in court.


----------



## ManjaroKDE

Devi said:


> I found this interesting:
> Scientists: Fully vaccinated carry 251 times the Covid viral load as unvaccinated
> https://www.worldtribune.com/scient...1-times-the-covid-viral-load-as-unvaccinated/
> 
> Quick snippet:
> "The researchers, who detailed their findings in a paper by the prestigious Oxford University Clinical Research Group published Aug. 10 in The Lancet, found that while the jab moderates symptoms of infection, it also allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into pre-symptomatic superspreaders."


You made the case for masking, social distancing and washing stronger, thanks.


----------



## Jennina

Chris P Bacon said:


> Maybe if we could get all of these reasons for people being hesitant or refusing to be vaccinated put on CNN as "true and factual" those people who seem to believe that whatever is reported on CNN to be lies, they'd stop believing as they currently do just because it's on CNN. Reverse psychology maybe?


That just might work.


----------



## charry

Jennina said:


> I get what youre saying. I was vaccine hesitant for the very same reason you mentioned. But one day it dawned on me. Why  was I  more afraid of the UNKNOWN and UNFOUNDED  long term negative side  effects of the vaccine when I should be more afraid of the KNOWN immediate and long term side effects of Covid.  It was like I was afraid of an imagined ghost in the future when there's  a monster staring me in the eye in the present. So, I got vaccinated.
> 
> Do what you think is right for you. Keep searching for the info. But stay away from sources that declare war on everything else except Covid, the enemy that poses clear and present danger.
> 
> Stay healthy and safe.


I know what is right for me jennina........ my one priority  is looking/after my husband,
After that, I’m not sure....... there’s no light at the end of my tunnel I’m afraid


----------



## RadishRose

Jennina said:


> It was like I was afraid of an imagined ghost in the future when there's a monster staring me in the eye in the present.


Very well stated!


----------



## Tom 86

I just got back from my P.C. Dr.  I couldn't breathe & could hardly move or do anything.  My O2 was down to 84 on-finger thingie. So he immediately put me on pure O2 as he didn't want to put me in the hospital as it's full of Conav-19 people that got their shots he said. Also done a fast Conav-19 test in the office since I had Conav-19 back in May also done 4 X-rays of my lungs.

  He left me with a nurse to watch that I didn't fall out of the chair. After about one hr. he came back in with a bottle of pills. ( His office is attached to the hospital & their pharmacy).  He said your test came back negative again.  But the way your O2 is low & not able to breathe & do anything or hardly walk, you're going back on portable O2 & these hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets.  Your X-rays show your lungs are full of junk again.

He said it looks like this Conav-19 after-effect will be with you the rest of your life.  I said I want to do things, but my body won't let me.  He said, well, it is what it is. So you might as well get your mindset that you are done doing anything.  All because of the Conav-19 that's in your body.  It will keep flaring up every so often & you will not know when.


----------



## win231

Tom 86 said:


> I just got back from my P.C. Dr.  I couldn't breathe & could hardly move or do anything.  My O2 was down to 84 on-finger thingie. So he immediately put me on pure O2 as he didn't want to put me in the hospital as it's full of Conav-19 people that got their shots he said. Also done a fast Conav-19 test in the office since I had Conav-19 back in May also done 4 X-rays of my lungs.
> 
> He left me with a nurse to watch that I didn't fall out of the chair. After about one hr. he came back in with a bottle of pills. ( His office is attached to the hospital & their pharmacy).  He said your test came back negative again.  But the way your O2 is low & not able to breathe & do anything or hardly walk, you're going back on portable O2 & these hydroxychloroquine & zinc tablets.  Your X-rays show your lungs are full of junk again.
> 
> He said it looks like this Conav-19 after-effect will be with you the rest of your life.  I said I want to do things, but my body won't let me.  He said, well, it is what it is. So you might as well get your mindset that you are done doing anything.  All because of the Conav-19 that's in your body.  It will keep flaring up every so often & you will not know when.


^^^ A dose of reality for vaccine pushers.  Especially the_ "Older people or those with pre-existing conditions must get the vaccine" _crowd.
And the controllers who seek validation for their decision............_"I got the vaccine; you should too."  _(to prove I made the right decision)
And the "Blame Game" fools.......... _"If you don't get the vaccine, you're causing the spread."_


----------



## Jennina

Devi said:


> I found this interesting:
> Scientists: Fully vaccinated carry 251 times the Covid viral load as unvaccinated
> https://www.worldtribune.com/scient...1-times-the-covid-viral-load-as-unvaccinated/
> 
> Quick snippet:
> "The researchers, who detailed their findings in a paper by the prestigious Oxford University Clinical Research Group published Aug. 10 in The Lancet, found that while the jab moderates symptoms of infection, it also allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into pre-symptomatic superspreaders."


I tried to check out the article in the August 10 issue of the Lancet but I can't seem to find it. 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/issue/vol394no10197/PIIS0140-6736(19)X0033-1

Then I checked the political bias of World Tribune. Media Bias/Fact Check classifies World Tribune as a Questionable Source.  Just thought I'd let you know. 

*QUESTIONABLE SOURCE*

A questionable source exhibits _one or more_ of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the _deliberate attempt_ to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category _may_ be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list _are not_ considered _fake news_ unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-tribune/?amp=1

I might have just missed the article in the Lancet. If anybody finds it, then I will stand corrected.


----------



## Irwin

Jennina said:


> I tried to check out the article in the August 10 issue of the Lancet but I can't seem to find it.
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/issue/vol394no10197/PIIS0140-6736(19)X0033-1
> 
> Then I checked the political bias of World Tribune. Media Bias/Fact Check classifies World Tribune as a Questionable Source.  Just thought I'd let you know.
> 
> *QUESTIONABLE SOURCE*
> 
> A questionable source exhibits _one or more_ of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the _deliberate attempt_ to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category _may_ be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list _are not_ considered _fake news_ unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-tribune/?amp=1
> 
> I might have just missed the article in the Lancet. If anybody finds it, then I will stand corrected.



I posted this in another thread, but it needs to go here, too.

*Fact Check-Study did not find vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of those who were unvaccinated*

The paper does not conclude that fully vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of the virus compared to unvaccinated healthcare workers. Rather, it concludes that “viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/fac...-of-those-who-were-unvaccinated-idUSL1N2PX1HH


----------



## Jennina

charry said:


> After that, I’m not sure....... there’s no light at the end of my tunnel I’m afraid



No, no, no. Don't say that. You're  gonna make me cry. I know what it's like to care for a loved one who's housebound. Stay strong. And don't forget to look after yourself too.  Hope you and your husband have a great weekend. Keep safe.


----------



## Butterfly

Irwin said:


> Here's a story about an antivaxxer who killed her 15 month old child, to save it, I guess.     She also stabbed her teenage daughter and her husband.
> 
> A Northwest Miami-Dade woman accused of stabbing her husband and teenage child also submerged her infant daughter in a bathtub during a bizarre baptism while screaming about Jesus and worrying that COVID-19 was coming to kill her family, according to multiple law enforcement sources.​https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article253698788.html​



Lots of crazies out there


----------



## Shero

I did try to avoid this thread, but feel I must make one point. To those who think the covid vaccines were manufactured too fast, you must not be aware that the blueprint of many vaccines especially the sars virus is already available.


----------



## mellowyellow

The number of daily new cases in Sydney reached 1,000 on Thursday for the first time since the pandemic began and tents have been set up outside Westmead and Blacktown hospitals to cope with screening and swabbing patients. Westmead hospital will stop taking covid patients arriving in ambulances for 24 hours. It’s a total mess.  Majority of patients on ventilators are not vaccinated.


----------



## Ladybj

Murrmurr said:


> I agree!
> 
> It's still being argued that 20-30 years ago doctors started over-prescribing antibiotics, ruining kids' immune systems. I never filled those Rx's for my kids. If they'd ever gotten sick enough to need antibiotics, I took them to the hospital. My youngest son got an infection in his knee when he was 5....inside, in the joint. Spent 4 days in hospital. But otherwise, for colds and stuff, they rested at home, got fluids and ate gramma's chicken soup, and were outside playing in a day or two.


I remember my mom use to fix us hot lemonade  when we had colds.  Rubbed us down with Vicks vapor rub when we had chest colds, fever.  Those old remedies worked wonders.  I am still pro old remedies.  Chicken broth, Chicken noodle soup, Ginger ale  when feeling sick, Hot toddy for colds - does wonders, etc.  All these pharmaceutical meds are not the greatest cure.  However, everyone do what is best for them.  Hubby reach for Pepto Bismol, I reach for Ginger for upset tummy.  Hubby reach for Dayquil for sniffles/cold - I reach for Hot toddy.  Everyone do what is best for them.


----------



## Ladybj

Chris P Bacon said:


> I heard that one of the side effects that may not show up until years after being vaccinated is living not only a longer life but also living a life with fewer aches and pains in it. I wish I could share the article link with you but I can't remember where I saw it.
> 
> I guess that we might just have to wait years and years to find out for sure but for right now it seems to be working pretty well at preventing the spread of infection than before there was a vaccine. I, for one, think that that presently is remarkable.


Since my hubby took the vaccine - months later he is starting to lose weight.  Not blaming it on the vaccine but nothing else in his life changed.  He is a bit concerned because he is not trying to lose weight. When he went to his last dr appt he thought he gained a few pounds - so did I due to his eating habits...but he is losing weight. Again, not blaming it on the vaccine but there has not been any other changes.


----------



## Ladybj

charry said:


> I feel there will be huge problems with the after affects of the vaccines in years to come
> It started with just vaccinating the over 80s , well fair enough, but vaccinating under 18s now....this is joke.........it was too quick to get a vaccination ready for use  ,   How long ? 2 months .....!!........we won’t be having it here.........


Now pregnant women and possibly babies.  Everyone do what is best for them and their family.  Thank goodness my children are grown and can make their own decisions.


----------



## Warrigal

Devi said:


> I found this interesting:
> Scientists: Fully vaccinated carry 251 times the Covid viral load as unvaccinated
> https://www.worldtribune.com/scient...1-times-the-covid-viral-load-as-unvaccinated/
> 
> Quick snippet:
> "The researchers, who detailed their findings in a paper by the prestigious Oxford University Clinical Research Group published Aug. 10 in The Lancet, found that while the jab moderates symptoms of infection, it also allows vaccinated individuals to carry unusually high viral loads without becoming ill at first, potentially transforming them into pre-symptomatic superspreaders."


I see that I am not the only fact checker on this forum. Although this is now a duplication I will post it anyway because this is something that deserves emphatic debunking.

I saw this claim on another forum and followed the link to the study. The extract at the beginning of the paper made it very clear to me that this characterisation of the findings is false. The study compares break though infections after vaccination for the Delta variant and a previous strain of SARS-CoV-2. It did not involve unvaccinated people who caught the disease.

Reuters fact check also looked at the study



> Fact Check-Study did not find vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of those who were unvaccinated





> By Reuters Fact Check
> 5 MIN READ
> 
> Social media users are sharing articles that discuss a study examining the transmission of the Delta variant of COVID-19 and falsely claiming the study found that fully vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load compared of those who are unvaccinated.
> 
> Many of the posts share an article (archive.ph/ltWYz) posted by the anti-vaccine campaign group Children’s Health Defense on Aug. 23, 2021 with the headline: “Study: Fully Vaccinated Healthcare Workers Carry 251 Times Viral Load, Pose Threat to Unvaccinated Patients, Co-Workers.” The subheading says the study found that “vaccinated individuals carry 251 times the load of COVID-19 viruses in their nostrils compared to the unvaccinated.”
> 
> This, however, was not the premise of the study. Rather, it sought to compare viral loads among workers with Delta variant vs previous variants of SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> The study discussed in the article is visible here as a preprint, which is an early-stage research paper that has not yet been peer-reviewed.
> 
> The paper examines breakthrough infections in healthcare workers in Vietnam, all of whom contracted the Delta variant after receiving the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine.
> Top
> *The paper does not conclude that fully vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of the virus compared to unvaccinated healthcare workers. Rather, it concludes that “viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020.”*




There is more for those interested here - Fact Check-Study did not find vaccinated healthcare workers carry 251 times the viral load of those who were unvaccinated | Reuters


----------



## Ladybj

Tom 86 said:


> I NEVER believe anything on CNN.    Interestingly, the Conav-19 cases in hospitals have gone up to over 4,000 a week in our State.  The interesting & what Dr's are trying to figure out.  People that GOT both shots after 4 months or so they end up in the hospitals.  They have beds in the halls.  Not real bad cases of Conav-19 but they have breathing problems enough to put them in the hospitals.
> 
> I can attest to this as I got my shot in January.  4 months later I was in the hospital with Conav-19.   They are trying to find out what's in the shots that are making people sick after 4 months.


So sorry to hear you got sick.  After 4 months of getting the vaccine my hubby is losing weight and is not trying to.  We both are a bit concerned.  I am not blaming it on the vaccine but not ruling it out.


----------



## Warrigal

Ladybj said:


> So sorry to hear you got sick.  After 4 months of getting the vaccine my hubby is losing weight and is not trying to.  We both are a bit concerned.  I am not blaming it on the vaccine but not ruling it out.


See a doctor ASAP. Unexplained weight loss is a worry.


----------



## Ladybj

Warrigal said:


> See a doctor ASAP. Unexplained weight loss is a worry.


He is seeing a doctor.  Not going into details.  Thank you.


----------



## Murrmurr

Ladybj said:


> Since my hubby took the vaccine - months later he is starting to lose weight.  Not blaming it on the vaccine but nothing else in his life changed.  He is a bit concerned because he is not trying to lose weight. When he went to his last dr appt he thought he gained a few pounds - so did I due to his eating habits...but he is losing weight. Again, not blaming it on the vaccine but there has not been any other changes.


Me too! I've just had no appetite for several months, and your post made me realize that started soon after I was vaccinated. I lost almost 15 pounds. I've gained back almost 10 pounds, but only because my wife makes sure I eat. My weight still goes up and down 5 to 8 pounds a month. I just hardly ever feel hungry....maybe a few times a month I do.


----------



## Irwin

I too have lost weight, but I think that's more because for the past two months, I've been doing all the cooking.


----------



## win231

Ladybj said:


> He is seeing a doctor.  Not going into details.  Thank you.


They'll likely check his FG (fasting glucose) on several days.


----------



## charry

Jennina said:


> No, no, no. Don't say that. You're  gonna make me cry. I know what it's like to care for a loved one who's housebound. Stay strong. And don't forget to look after yourself too.  Hope you and your husband have a great weekend. Keep safe.


Aww Thankyou jennina......But hubby and I are useless separated.....
Have a lovely weekend also


----------



## charry

Ladybj said:


> Since my hubby took the vaccine - months later he is starting to lose weight.  Not blaming it on the vaccine but nothing else in his life changed.  He is a bit concerned because he is not trying to lose weight. When he went to his last dr appt he thought he gained a few pounds - so did I due to his eating habits...but he is losing weight. Again, not blaming it on the vaccine but there has not been any other changes.


My friend is losing weight also ladybj and she hasnt changed her lifestyle


----------



## charry

Murrmurr said:


> Me too! I've just had no appetite for several months, and your post made me realize that started soon after I was vaccinated. I lost almost 15 pounds. I've gained back almost 10 pounds, but only because my wife makes sure I eat. My weight still goes up and down 5 to 8 pounds a month. I just hardly ever feel hungry....maybe a few times a month I do.


My weight stays the same normally.......I  never  have an appetite....I eat to live .......not live to eat !!


----------



## Murrmurr

charry said:


> My weight stays the same normally.......I  never  have an appetite....I eat to live .......not live to eat !!


Mine hovered around 170-175 pounds for 30 years and suddenly dropped to 155. That's not an alarming weight for a guy who's just a tad over 6ft tall, but it was sudden and very noticeable, and it was because I'd totally lost my appetite. 

I was one who ate for the love of good food. I liked to cook it and I loved to eat it, but not since last April, when I got my 2nd vaccination. I hover between a little over 160 and as "much" as 168 now. I usually eat one pretty good sized meal a day, when my wife eats with me, but not every day. I don't feel hunger and food has lost its appeal. That isn't normal for me. Could be my age, idk, but it started a week or 2 after I was fully vaccinated. Maybe that isn't a coincidence.


----------



## win231

Murrmurr said:


> Mine hovered around 170-175 pounds for 30 years and suddenly dropped to 155. That's not an alarming weight for a guy who's just a tad over 6ft tall, but it was sudden and very noticeable, and it was because I'd totally lost my appetite.
> 
> I was one who ate for the love of good food. I liked to cook it and I loved to eat it, but not since last April, when I got my 2nd vaccination. I hover between a little over 160 and as "much" as 168 now. I usually eat one pretty good sized meal a day, when my wife eats with me, but not every day. I don't feel hunger and food has lost its appeal. That isn't normal for me. Could be my age, idk, but it started a week or 2 after I was fully vaccinated. Maybe that isn't a coincidence.


Careful.  When word gets out, there will be new advertising for the vaccine.


----------



## Murrmurr

win231 said:


> Careful.  When word gets out, there will be new advertising for the vaccine.


Pfeiser could quadruple their already astounding profits.


----------



## charry

Murrmurr said:


> Mine hovered around 170-175 pounds for 30 years and suddenly dropped to 155. That's not an alarming weight for a guy who's just a tad over 6ft tall, but it was sudden and very noticeable, and it was because I'd totally lost my appetite.
> 
> I was one who ate for the love of good food. I liked to cook it and I loved to eat it, but not since last April, when I got my 2nd vaccination. I hover between a little over 160 and as "much" as 168 now. I usually eat one pretty good sized meal a day, when my wife eats with me, but not every day. I don't feel hunger and food has lost its appeal. That isn't normal for me. Could be my age, idk, but it started a week or 2 after I was fully vaccinated. Maybe that isn't a coincidence.


Your have to get it sorted murmurr..............hope it wasn’t the vaccine , 
I’ve heard lots of different illness s since friends have had the  jabs......
I hope you get some answers......x


----------



## Irwin

Murrmurr said:


> Mine hovered around 170-175 pounds for 30 years and suddenly dropped to 155. That's not an alarming weight for a guy who's just a tad over 6ft tall, but it was sudden and very noticeable, and it was because I'd totally lost my appetite.
> 
> I was one who ate for the love of good food. I liked to cook it and I loved to eat it, but not since last April, when I got my 2nd vaccination. I hover between a little over 160 and as "much" as 168 now. I usually eat one pretty good sized meal a day, when my wife eats with me, but not every day. I don't feel hunger and food has lost its appeal. That isn't normal for me. Could be my age, idk, but it started a week or 2 after I was fully vaccinated. Maybe that isn't a coincidence.


Interesting. What brand vaccine did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine and it didn't affect my appetite.


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/heal...breakthrough-hospitalization-death/index.html


If the vaccine was "Amazingly Effective," everyone who was vaccinated would not be concerned with those who don't want it; they'd be _"Amazingly Protected._"  Their concern is a result of their knowledge that the vaccine is _Amazingly Ineffective._


----------



## John cycling

win231 said:


> If the vaccine was "Amazingly Effective," everyone who was vaccinated would not be concerned with those who don't want it; they'd be _"Amazingly Protected._"  Their concern is a result of their knowledge that the vaccine is _Amazingly Ineffective._



Exactly.  Their real concern is that the poisons they injected are going to mess them up and potentially kill them.
If the vaccines really worked, they wouldn't still be constantly in fear of everything around them, and now, inside of them.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

oldman said:


> I was listening to talk radio last night on Sirius-XM. Another know-it-all doctor was taking and answering questions from listeners off of an 800 number. One question was—-“Why do people who were vaccinated still get the virus?”
> His answer was something like “Because the Delta variant is not constructed the same as the first variant was, which is what the vaccine was designed to fight against using the immune system. The vaccine supports and adds special inhibitors to kill or deter the COVD (SARS) virus from infecting the person who was vaccinated.” NOTE—-The doctor gave the name of the first variant, but I can’t remember what it is. Also, what I wrote that the doctor said is not verbatim. It’s what I remember him saying, but is not exact.
> 
> He also said that so far all of the variants have had similar genetic markers and this is why the vaccine aids in fighting off other variants. I am not a scientist, but I think I understand his references. He also spoke about different Lymphocytes, which is where I kind of fogged up.


_“Why do people who were vaccinated still get the virus?”
His answer was something like “Because the Delta variant is not constructed the same as the first variant was, which is what the vaccine was designed to fight against using the immune system."_
Yet I've heard health officials say that the vaccines would be effective against the Delta variant. There's conflicting information coming from different health agencies and it seems to change a couple of times a week. I'll be looking into claims that the number of breakthrough cases has been under reported as were the number of deaths from the vaccine. But for now, I'm SO saturated with COVID stuff that I'm taking a break from it.


----------



## win231

OneEyedDiva said:


> _“Why do people who were vaccinated still get the virus?”
> His answer was something like “Because the Delta variant is not constructed the same as the first variant was, which is what the vaccine was designed to fight against using the immune system."_
> Yet I've heard health officials say that the vaccines would be effective against the Delta variant. There's conflicting information coming from different health agencies and it seems to change a couple of times a week. I'll be looking into claims that the number of breakthrough cases has been under reported as were the number of deaths from the vaccine. But for now, I'm SO saturated with COVID stuff that I'm taking a break from it.


If the experts knew what they claim to know, & there wasn't another motive to get everyone vaccinated ($$$$), there wouldn't be any conflicting information.


----------



## Pauline1954

Tom 86 said:


> I NEVER believe anything on CNN.    Interestingly, the Conav-19 cases in hospitals have gone up to over 4,000 a week in our State.  The interesting & what Dr's are trying to figure out.  People that GOT both shots after 4 months or so they end up in the hospitals.  They have beds in the halls.  Not real bad cases of Conav-19 but they have breathing problems enough to put them in the hospitals.
> 
> I can attest to this as I got my shot in January.  4 months later I was in the hospital with Conav-19.   They are trying to find out what's in the shots that are making people sick after 4 months.


My daughter and son have been having problems. But at the 4 month mark they both started gaving more serious life interrupting spells. Pain, feeling like on fire, dizziness, brain fog. Its very scary and Im very concerned for my grown children. Both are still single in,their early 40's and both were strong and healthy.   Whats alarming to me is many others that got the vax are having some of the same type of pain they diagnosed with MS, Guillain Barre, Myocardistis .... i think i miszpelled it.


----------



## Pauline1954

win231 said:


> If the experts knew what they claim to know, & there wasn't another motive to get everyone vaccinated ($$$$), there wouldn't be any conflicting information.


----------



## Tom 86

I see a lot of Fact-checkers on F.B.  They keep saying some things getting posted are false.  Just to make more people go get the darn shot.
  I believe what my DOCTOR tells me about the hospital is* FULL OF VACCINATED peo*ple after the 4-month interval of the shot.  Just like me.  I've got a lot of friends that also got the shot & they started having problems after 4 months.    
They got the shot & their arm got sore for a couple of days.  Then the Poo hit the fan & their body started giving them fits & they ended up in the hospital 4 months later. 

  So NO one can tell me there is not something bad in the vaccine.


----------



## Ladybj

Murrmurr said:


> Me too! I've just had no appetite for several months, and your post made me realize that started soon after I was vaccinated. I lost almost 15 pounds. I've gained back almost 10 pounds, but only because my wife makes sure I eat. My weight still goes up and down 5 to 8 pounds a month. I just hardly ever feel hungry....maybe a few times a month I do.


Glad to see your post.  My hubby went from 263 pounds down to around 240.  I am beginning to see it.


----------



## Ladybj

Tom 86 said:


> I see a lot of Fact-checkers on F.B.  They keep saying some things getting posted are false.  Just to make more people go get the darn shot.
> I believe what my DOCTOR tells me about the hospital is* FULL OF VACCINATED peo*ple after the 4-month interval of the shot.  Just like me.  I've got a lot of friends that also got the shot & they started having problems after 4 months.
> They got the shot & their arm got sore for a couple of days.  Then the Poo hit the fan & their body started giving them fits & they ended up in the hospital 4 months later.
> 
> So NO one can tell me there is not something bad in the vaccine.


My hubby is losing weight after 4 months of being vaccinated.


----------



## Ladybj

Irwin said:


> I too have lost weight, but I think that's more because for the past two months, I've been doing all the cooking.


----------



## Murrmurr

Irwin said:


> Interesting. What brand vaccine did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine and it didn't affect my appetite.


Pfizer. 

And, like I said, it might be my age, I don't know. I'll go for weeks not feeling hungry, no growly tummy or watering mouth or anything. During that time food doesn't even look good no matter what it is, sweets included. Then I have a day when suddenly, I'm hungry. But once I've eaten a meal, my appetite is gone again for another few weeks or so.

It started within a month after I was vaccinated. And I don't know any elderly people who have complained about not wanting to eat. I've heard it happens when they're days from dying, but not as a part of just getting old.


----------



## Brookswood

Here's good news that the vaccines in the USA are helping to keep people alive despite the increased danger from the Delta variant.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/coronavirus/article253787033.html



> Unvaccinated people are more than 15 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than those who are vaccinated, the N.C. Department of Health and Human Services said Friday.
> 
> The report is an analysis from the four-week period ending Aug. 21 and accounts for age, as older people are more likely to die from the virus in general, but are also more likely to be vaccinated.


----------



## Brookswood

Irwin said:


> Interesting. What brand vaccine did you get? I got the Pfizer vaccine and it didn't affect my appetite.


It did not affect my appetite at all. In fact I just finished making a side dish of roasted veggies, nuts, cranberries and pears. It's delicious. 

Both my Pfizer shots produced about 12 hours of being rather tired, sore, and not alert at the peak.   About four hours after the peak, I was back to normal.   This is a small price to pay compared to a former coworker who spent 4 weeks in bed when he had Covid last year.


----------



## Brookswood

https://www.newsweek.com/new-report...s-county-residents-covid-took-vaccine-1622681

While its sad that so many people died, this information shows that the vaccine is still a potent weapon to use against the Delta version of the cororna virus and Covid.

Emphasis Added....



> A new report released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that *25 percent of residents who tested positive for COVID-19 in Los Angeles County were fully vaccinated.*
> 
> The report also found about 12 percent of infected people hospitalized and about 12 percent of people who died from the virus were fully vaccinated. CDC officials noted the number of Americans who are fully vaccinated has been increasing, so they expected to see a rise in infections among fully vaccinated people.





> The report concluded that *infections tended to be more common and more severe in people who were unvaccinated. * *Unvaccinated people were nearly five times more likely to get infected and 29 times more likely to be hospitalized from the virus.*
> 
> Additionally, the report found the median *age for vaccinated people who died was 78, compared to 63 for unvaccinated individuals.* It also noted that one quarter of the 24 fully vaccinated people who died had weakened immune systems.


----------



## Sunny

I had the Pfizer vaccine in Jan.  and Feb.  I had absolutely no bad reactions 4 months later, or at any other time. In June, I had my annual physical and was told that everything was working just fine.  My weight is exactly the same as it was a year ago, almost to the pound. It never seems to change, which is fine with me. I like the weight I am.

Somehow, I haven't met or heard of anyone among the enormous number of people I interact with, whether friends, relatives, neighbors, or whatever, who had any of these very dubious-sounding reactions to the vaccine. The worst thing that seems to happen is feeling lousy the next day, and some people get a sore arm. That's it. I don't know where or by whom these stories are generated, but I can guess. And calling a harmless medication that has saved millions of lives "poison" is as wacko as it gets. Actually, it's worse than wacko, it's responsible for many deaths among the people who are naive enough to believe these stories.

It's also an obsession with some. If you are really so terrified about this vaccine that you are willing to risk sacrificing your life, and maybe the lives of anyone close to you, that's your privilege. But why the constant ranting about the subject?  Fortunately, more and more of the anti-vaxxers are finally coming to their senses. Thank God they have the sense to realize that they have been taken in by the demagogues who have politicized a disease for their own benefit, and have decided to try to keep themselves healthy. I applaud them.


----------



## Ladybj

charry said:


> My friend is losing weight also ladybj and she hasnt changed her lifestyle


WOW!!!   I pray my hubby don't continue losing weight.  He's keeping track of it.  If he lose more, he will go back to the doctor.  The sad thing is the company cannot be at fault because people signed a disclosure.


----------



## StarSong

Ladybj said:


> WOW!!!   I pray my hubby don't continue losing weight.  He's keeping track of it.  If he lose more, he will go back to the doctor.  The sad thing is the company cannot be at fault because people signed a disclosure.


There is no reason to connect his weight loss to the vaccine.    

If your husband is losing weight for no reason he needs to see a doctor immediately. Unexpected weight loss is a symptom of many serious conditions. I hope you get some answers. 
https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/unexplained-weight-loss/basics/causes/sym-20050700


----------



## charry

StarSong said:


> There is no reason to connect his weight loss to the vaccine.
> 
> If your husband is losing weight for no reason he needs to see a doctor immediately. Unexpected weight loss is a symptom of many serious conditions. I hope you get some answers.
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/unexplained-weight-loss/basics/causes/sym-20050700


Yes sadly it is ....we lost our cousin last year and that was because she was losing weight ,but I won’t go into it ..


----------



## squatting dog




----------



## squatting dog




----------



## StarSong

charry said:


> Yes sadly it is ....we lost our cousin last year and that was because she was losing weight ,but I won’t go into it ..


She died from weight loss or an underlying condition that hadn't been diagnosed?


----------



## charry

StarSong said:


> She died from weight loss or an underlying condition that hadn't been diagnosed?


She had a scan, and they found a spot on her lung ......she had chemo and radio, but died 6 months later


----------



## StarSong

I'm so sorry for the loss of your cousin, @charry.  It's terribly sad to lose people we love.


----------



## Pepper

charry said:


> She had a scan, and they found a spot on her lung ......she had chemo and radio, but died 6 months later


Sounds like small cell lung cancer.  No cure.


----------



## charry

Pepper said:


> Sounds like small cell lung cancer.  No cure.


It must of been pepper.....the same problem happened with a few of my friends....
There is no  way ,I  would go through all that chemo ,and upset , loss of hair=etc ,
For a few weeks ....


----------



## oldman

OneEyedDiva said:


> _“Why do people who were vaccinated still get the virus?”
> His answer was something like “Because the Delta variant is not constructed the same as the first variant was, which is what the vaccine was designed to fight against using the immune system."_
> Yet I've heard health officials say that the vaccines would be effective against the Delta variant. There's conflicting information coming from different health agencies and it seems to change a couple of times a week. I'll be looking into claims that the number of breakthrough cases has been under reported as were the number of deaths from the vaccine. But for now, I'm SO saturated with COVID stuff that I'm taking a break from it.


Yeah and here’s another point of view to at least consider. How do these variants become variants? What I have read, there are two ways. 

One way is by the virus continuing to mutate by reproducing itself, but to do so, it must be done in a host and guess who the host is? Once in a host, the virus continues to replicate itself until a change in the structure happens. 

The other way is for the virus to be manipulated or engineered. This is called “gain of function.” 
So, if (a big if) someone is manipulating the virus, this could go on for years. Supposedly, when this version of the coronavirus (COVID-19) was discovered, some scientists believed that this virus would burn itself out in about six months. Now, it doesn’t look like it’s going away anytime soon.


----------



## OneEyedDiva

oldman said:


> Yeah and here’s another point of view to at least consider. How do these variants become variants? What I have read, there are two ways.
> 
> One way is by the virus continuing to mutate by reproducing itself, but to do so, it must be done in a host and guess who the host is? Once in a host, the virus continues to replicate itself until a change in the structure happens.
> 
> The other way is for the virus to be manipulated or engineered. This is called “gain of function.”
> So, if (a big if) someone is manipulating the virus, this could go on for years. Supposedly, when this version of the coronavirus (COVID-19) was discovered, some scientists believed that this virus would burn itself out in about six months. Now, it doesn’t look like it’s going away anytime soon.


Interesting Oldman. The virus is doing what viruses do....mutating. I expected that would be the case when we first heard about COVID-19. Why people of science would expect that the virus would "burn itself out" is beyond me. The common cold didn't and viral pneumonia didn't. The outbreak of SARS _"caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-1)" _per Wikipedia took place in 2002. According to the NIH _"Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold. However, three new coronaviruses have emerged from animal reservoirs over the past two decades to cause serious and widespread illness and death."_
We still don't know the real story of how COVID started. Again...I've seen more conflicting information from those who we should be able to trust to disseminate the proper information to the public.


----------



## oldman

OneEyedDiva said:


> Interesting Oldman. The virus is doing what viruses do....mutating. I expected that would be the case when we first heard about COVID-19. Why people of science would expect that the virus would "burn itself out" is beyond me. The common cold didn't and viral pneumonia didn't. The outbreak of SARS "caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-1)" took place in 2002. Per the NIH "Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold. However, three new coronaviruses have emerged from animal reservoirs over the past two decades to cause serious and widespread illness and death."
> We still don't know the real story of how COVID started. Again...I've seen more conflicting information from those who we should be able to trust to disseminate the proper information.


I have my own theory where COVID-19 originated from and how. But, the truth probably won’t be known our lifetime.


----------



## Murrmurr

StarSong said:


> There is no reason to connect his weight loss to the vaccine.


I have reason to connect the two. Before I was vaccinated, I had a good appetite. A few weeks after, I had no appetite. Like I said, maybe it's my age, but maybe it isn't. After blood tests, a urine sample, an EEG and an abdominal sonogram, my doctor had no explanation for it.


----------

