# Do NOT believe the CV19 stats!



## treeguy64 (May 16, 2020)

OK, I was quick to label those who were talking about the following as "conspiracy kooks," until I started investigating, on my own. Guess what?  They were right!

Let's get into this: On its most basic level: When hospitals report a cv19 case, they get a payout from Medicare.  When they report that a ventilator was used on a given case, they get even more money!

Now, the articles I read went on to say, after reporting the above, that the wonderful doctors would never report cases just to make more money. Oh no, what doctor would dream of misreporting such a thing to enrich himself and the hospital he works at? Perish the thought! All doctors are motivated by the urge to help people. They never consider such a crude thing as making more money, right?  WRONG!!!

I'd bet that better than half of all doctors will label cases as Covid-19, precisely for the money that doing so will generate! Get that patient on a ventilator and.... BINGO! You've just hit the jackpot. (Never mind that research, out there, details that ventilators can, very likely, make things much worse for a patient if the positive pressure exerted actually facilitates the travel of the virus into the dark recesses of one's lungs!)

Also, you might think,  "Hold on, there, TG, these doctors can't misreport what a patient has/what a patient died from! There are tests that'll need to be done for positive confirmation." BUZZ! Wrong answer! Even the CDC site explains, in its "*" postings, that stat cases are "probable" Covid-19 cases! Go look around, for yourself.

The above being the case, I'd also bet that the cv19 stats we see, each night, on the news, are about as reliable as the claims made by those "But wait!" products sold with 800 numbers on TV!

Start here, to begin doing your own research:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3000638001


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## C'est Moi (May 16, 2020)

I have been reading these reports for a week or so.   I posted this a few days ago... not even Birx has any confidence in the numbers.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/birx-said-nothing-cdc-trust-044212374.htm

_Deborah Birx, the White House's coronavirus task force response coordinator, blasted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in a White House coronavirus task force meeting during a discussion on COVID-19 data, according to The Washington Post.  "There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust," she told CDC Director Robert Redfield, two people familiar with the meeting told the newspaper.

*The Post reported that Birx and others feared that the CDC's statistics on mortality rate and case counts were inflated by up to 25%*._


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## Happyflowerlady (May 17, 2020)

Just last night, I was reading a report from someone who was in law enforcement, and had attended to a victim from a motorcycle accident. 
The person had survived long enough that the ambulance got him to the hospital, but then he died before they could do anything to save him. 
The hospital gave him the virus test and found that he had the antibodies (or whatever it is that shows up in the test), and counted his death as covid rather than motorcycle accident. Since the deputy apparently needed the information for his report, he was shocked to read the results !


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## Ruthanne (May 17, 2020)

I've heard something like this before too on another thread in this section.


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## Keesha (May 17, 2020)




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## treeguy64 (May 17, 2020)

Happyflowerlady said:


> Just last night, I was reading a report from someone who was in law enforcement, and had attended to a victim from a motorcycle accident.
> The person had survived long enough that the ambulance got him to the hospital, but then he died before they could do anything to save him.
> The hospital gave him the virus test and found that he had the antibodies (or whatever it is that shows up in the test), and counted his death as covid rather than motorcycle accident. Since the deputy apparently needed the information for his report, he was shocked to read the results !


This sounds like an Urban Legend, to me, with sincere and all due respect. Unless someone posts a verifiable citation from a credible news source, I'm not giving it any thoughts of being based on actual facts.


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## CarolfromTX (May 17, 2020)

And none of this could possibly be politically motivated, right? Surely no one would actually want a recession. Uh huh. Right....


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## squatting dog (May 17, 2020)

Welcome to our side folks. Been saying all along... follow the money.


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## StarSong (May 17, 2020)

Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:  

Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?

Most sources I've read are suggesting that the US's Covid-19 deaths have been underreported based on typical death rates for the same period of time over the past several years versus deaths this year.

I'm not suggesting that there is zero fraud going on, only that it's unlikely to be statistically significant. (Are large numbers of doctors putting patients on ventilators unnecessarily? Seems doubtful.)

It's in a hospital's best interest to not have COVID patients. The fewer they have, the faster they can get back to their pathway to serious revenue, which is elective surgeries and other normal activities. Right now, they're starving.

I was in a hospital ER a week ago. Let me tell you, it's costing them plenty to do all the entry COVID testing, to stream potential cases to a separate, highly sanitized wing, to have almost no patients in the ER, and to have suspended virtually all outpatient procedures. This is financially disastrous for hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc.

According to the article you linked, Jensen said, "Hospital administrators might well want to see COVID-19 attached to a discharge summary or a death certificate. Why? Because if it's a straightforward, garden-variety pneumonia that a person is admitted to the hospital for – *if they're Medicare –* typically, the diagnosis-related group lump sum payment would be $5,000. But if it's COVID-19 pneumonia, then it's $13,000, and if that COVID-19 pneumonia patient ends up on a ventilator, it goes up to $39,000."

So using the math above, for Medicare patients only, hospitals would get an extra $8,000 for Covid-19 patients, and if they go on a ventilator, an additional $26,000.

Furthermore, again quoting the article, there is this paragraph:

"AskFactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."'


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## applecruncher (May 17, 2020)

@treeguy64 
Maybe it's the thread title, but it sounds like an order...a command.

I understand the essence of what you're saying, but adults are capable of believing or not believing whatever they want.


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## Gary O' (May 17, 2020)

Well, it's rather easy to skew stats to what you want them to be.
I view the COVID reports somewhat skeptically 
I mean, how can number of cases pre capita be accurate if testing is so limited?

And hospitals/doctors?
I've never held with their 'reports'

Doctors.....sheeesh
Mine wanted me to start taking something for cholesterol
I said, 'But mine is reading fine'
She said, 'But at your age, you should be on something (whatever it was)' 
Told her, 'Do you hear yourself?!'
Prolly just came from a seminar sponsored by a drug company


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## rgp (May 17, 2020)

The lemmings are learning......


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## JaniceM (May 17, 2020)

It's scary and sickening to think Pharma et al. has its nose and greedy paws in this pandemic, too.  But I wouldn't be at all surprised.


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## Don M. (May 17, 2020)

A major share of the data, concerning this virus, is a "best guess".  Without really knowing what causes it, and how to treat it, there are few definitive answers.  I'm sure there are some doctors and hospitals that are using this virus as a means of padding their pockets....like they do for almost any illness/treatment, but in this case, it's anyone's guess.

Many hospitals are losing money, because people are not going in for elective procedures....so, it would not surprise me that some of these institutions are getting "creative" in their diagnosis/treatment to maintain their finances.  

One thing for sure....when the dust settles, we are going to see health insurance premiums rising substantially.


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## 911 (May 17, 2020)

I have to say that there are a lot of theories and personal thoughts listed here, which should be no surprise given that we are dealing with such a global crisis.

I think I will just keep my thoughts to myself. However, I did find this on Snopes, if they are to be believed:

*What's True*
It is plausible that Medicare is paying hospital fees for some COVID-19 cases in the range of the figures given by Dr. Scott Jensen, a Minnesota state senator, during a Fox News interview.
*What's False*
However, Medicare says it does not make standard, one-size-fits-all payments to hospitals for patients admitted with COVID-19 diagnoses and placed on ventilators. The $13,000 and $39,000 figures appear to be based on generic industry estimates for admitting and treating patients with similar conditions


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## fmdog44 (May 17, 2020)

Now we don't have to have any symptoms to get tested. I wonder how much money Medicare has.


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## JustBonee (May 17, 2020)

For me,  it's so confusing on so many fronts.  ...  they say you can test positive on one day and negative the next and back again.   I just don't understand  the rules anymore.    So what does the testing prove if that is the case.  You would need to get tested over and over again.  Some people get very sick,   and others just test positive,   and that's it. ... no issues or sickness.

Getting the test in the first place is a big challenge for most since so few have even been checked.

It is a virus that is mutating  into many different things, for different people ....  first the lung issues,  and dry cough and trouble breathing,    and then,  it's little kids with  rashes and heart problems in hospitals from it.

I just  don't recall past viruses  being so many different things,    and constantly changing.
And  how do you get a handle on the situation when no two experts agree on anything?


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## win231 (May 17, 2020)

As I've always said, "Follow the money."  And in this economy, follow the money more closely.


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## treeguy64 (May 17, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:
> 
> Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but what you quoted from the article exactly goes along with my main contention:

Hell yeah, the hospitals want that cv19 money, no two ways about it!

The quote about the doctors, and "financial reasons" for misclassifying,  also applies to the above.

As for the other countries you mention, I have no idea how they operate. 

FWIW, the scarf/shawl fetishist, Birx, recently went on record with the statement that she believes about 25% of the cv19 stats are overstated. To me, that means that more than 50% are overstated.


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## asp3 (May 17, 2020)

Thank you for posting the link to the USA Today article.  It's a source I find reasonably trustworthy.  The most interesting part of the article for me was:

_Jensen said he thinks the overall number of COVID-19 cases have been undercounted based on limitations in the number of tests available._ 

So even though the person quoted raises the reasons why some would over report COVID-19 cases, he still thinks they are being undercounted.


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## JaniceM (May 17, 2020)

asp3 said:


> Thank you for posting the link to the USA Today article.  It's a source I find reasonably trustworthy.  The most interesting part of the article for me was:
> 
> _Jensen said he thinks the overall number of COVID-19 cases have been undercounted based on limitations in the number of tests available._
> 
> So even though the person quoted raises the reasons why some would over report COVID-19 cases, he still thinks they are being undercounted.


I'd agree that it's quite likely.  I don't know what the rules are in other locations, but around here it's very difficult to get a test.  So one should figure plenty of people have it, but don't know it because they can't get tested.  And that doesn't even include those who have the virus without symptoms.


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## CarolfromTX (May 17, 2020)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's hard to know what to believe. Everybody has an agenda. Everybody. Everyone wants their fifteen minutes of fame.  I am so over this. I don't trust any statistic, any number, any politician.


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## rgp (May 17, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's hard to know what to believe. Everybody has an agenda. Everybody. Everyone wants their fifteen minutes of fame.  I am so over this. I don't trust any statistic, any number, any politician.




 Exactly !


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## RadishRose (May 17, 2020)

I can't fathom it anymore. Once, I had a grip but the twists and turns, info and mis-info, opinion and fact; greed, ineptitude, secrets, lies, speculation and truth- have all become a blur to me.

The only thing I can do is to err n the side of caution.


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## MarciKS (May 17, 2020)

StarSong said:


> Not going to argue any of these points, but would like to pose a couple of questions and point out a few things:
> 
> Do you suppose France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Ireland, Qatar, the UK and others who report even higher rates of infection and death than the US are gaming their systems? Brazil, Peru, Saudi Arabia, and Russia's numbers are exploding - are they getting sweet deals from their governments, too?
> 
> ...



I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here. 

I can tell you that this situation is affecting our budget and if it continues we may be looking at layoffs down the line. Some people in certain depts. of our hospital had to be laid off because their depts. had to close until this settled down.

However, I too have read that they make more money from Medicare for things but, I doubt they would be able to get away with misclassifying like you said.


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## treeguy64 (May 17, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here.
> 
> I can tell you that this situation is affecting our budget and if it continues we may be looking at layoffs down the line. Some people in certain depts. of our hospital had to be laid off because their depts. had to close until this settled down.
> 
> However, I too have read that they make more money from Medicare for things but, I doubt they would be able to get away with misclassifying like you said.


When the CDC, itself, admits, on its site, that its statistics contain "probable" Covid-19 cases, what's to stop anyone, including doctors, who have a financial stake in the game, from misclassifying admissions and deaths? 

Are you thinking that some cadre of "holy doctors" roam hospital corridors, righteously testing and verifying test results to make absolutely sure that all statistics contain only "100% Certified" Covid cases?


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## MarciKS (May 17, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> When the CDC, itself, admits, on its site, that its statistics contain "probable" Covid-19 cases, what's to stop anyone, including doctors, who have a financial stake in the game, from misclassifying admissions and deaths?


Hospitals and clinics are all subject to federal surveyors and they have to give them all their records to be checked and then there's penalties for fraud. Most hospitals try to avoid those kinds of things.


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## treeguy64 (May 18, 2020)

Yes, and I'm sure that these overlords of professional integrity personally test each and every case that's written off as cv19. Man.........


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## rkunsaw (May 18, 2020)

https://www.foxnews.com/science/how-does-the-new-coronavirus-compare-with-the-flu


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## treeguy64 (May 18, 2020)

Many weeks ago, I wrote that I would no longer comment on cv19. I ignored my own post, of late, because I wanted to help open the eyes of those ignoring the obvious as the same pertains to inflated reporting figures,  mismanagement of medical supplies, etc. 

Unfortunately, I have to admit that this issue, exactly like politics, a forbidden subject in here, bears witness to the old saw: "There are none so blind as those who will not see!"

Relax, "vision impaired" folks. I'm promising, herein,  to go back to standing by my previous vow.


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## squatting dog (May 18, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> Many weeks ago, I wrote that I would no longer comment on cv19. I ignored my own post, of late, because I wanted to help open the eyes of those ignoring the obvious as the same pertains to inflated reporting figures,  mismanagement of medical supplies, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have to admit that this issue, exactly like politics, a forbidden subject in here, bears witness to the old saw: "There are none so blind as those who will not see!"
> 
> Relax, "vision impaired" folks. I'm promising, herein,  to go back to standing by my previous vow.



Same here. I said I was through commenting, but, like a moth to a flame, I can't stay away.


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## Aunt Bea (May 18, 2020)

IMO we need to take all statistics with a grain of salt.

I've been watching the figures for my county and for my state because conditions in my area of the country have the most relevance to me.

There are thousands of people across the country and the world reporting information to various agencies compiling statistics and each contributor is making certain assumptions about which box to tick on which form as they file reports.

If the grand totals reported are accurate to a plus or minus 10% it will still give us some reasonable information about the impact and trends for the virus.


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## MarciKS (May 18, 2020)

With all the disagreements and arguing that goes on in COVID threads because certain people think they're the ones with the only viable answers, I can't believe this thread doesn't get closed.


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## StarSong (May 18, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> With all the disagreements and arguing that goes on in COVID threads because certain people think they're the ones with the only viable answers, I can't believe this thread doesn't get closed.


From my observation, threads get closed when they get overly political, abusive or insulting.  There is no rule against disagreeing.


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## Sunny (May 18, 2020)

Probably, on this subject everybody is right, and everybody is wrong.  Assuming that none of us in the forum are in-depth experts on the subject, it's kind of amazing to me that so many are quick to assume criminal-level greed on the part of doctors, scientists, hospitals, and all the others who are fighting the disease.  They are only interested in making big bucks?  And there is a worldwide conspiracy to do this, by every country universally falsifying the figures?  It's all lies, don't trust anything or anybody, and so on down the ever-so-familiar paranoid path?  Wow.

Let's say for a moment that we are looking at insurance claims for house fires. Would all the statistics-doubters be that quick to assume "arson" and "insurance fraud" for every fire?  Why are so many lemmings eager to jump into the denial cesspool on Covid-19, but not for any other medical diagnosis?  The only "facts" I would trust on this would be those being stated by experts who can provide tangible proof, not "shocked" accusations.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are errors in reporting cases of the disease. How could there not be, in the middle of a crisis situation? 911 is right, it's always a good practice to rely on Snopes for the truth.


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## lukebass (May 19, 2020)

There are many very sick folks from Covid 19 who are not going to the ER and dying at home.  In most cases their cause of death is listed as something other than Covid 19.

According to real medical pros the actual death rate in the US is probably 50% higher than what is being stated.

Keep in mind that a good statistician can take any set of data and present that data in a positive or negative manner.


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## gennie (May 19, 2020)

treeguy64 said:


> When the CDC, itself, admits, on its site, that its statistics contain "probable" Covid-19 cases, what's to stop anyone, including doctors, who have a financial stake in the game, from misclassifying admissions and deaths?
> 
> Are you thinking that some cadre of "holy doctors" roam hospital corridors, righteously testing and verifying test results to make absolutely sure that all statistics contain only "100% Certified" Covid cases?



The main thing we all need to remember is this:  so far the ONLY things known positively - without a doubt -  as opposed to previously known viruses are:

(1) it is easier to contract
(2) is much more deadly
(3) is far more likely to leave long lasting adverse medical conditions
(4) has no respect for either age or existing health

All else is conjecture no matter who speaks it.

Everyone needs to know and understand these facts as well as the actual current infection/death rates in your own immediate area/zip code and then use their own common sense and act accordingly.


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## C'est Moi (May 19, 2020)

lukebass said:


> There are many very sick folks from Covid 19 who are not going to the ER and dying at home.  In most cases their cause of death is listed as something other than Covid 19.
> 
> *According to real medical pros the actual death rate in the US is probably 50% higher than what is being stated.*
> 
> Keep in mind that a good statistician can take any set of data and present that data in a positive or negative manner.


"Real medical pros?"   Exactly who would that be, and can you provide a link to this valuable information?


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## Sunny (May 19, 2020)

> Unfortunately, I have to admit that this issue, exactly like politics, a forbidden subject in here, bears witness to the old saw: "There are none so blind as those who will not see!"



Er, yes, Treeguy.  Exactly.


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## CarolfromTX (May 19, 2020)

Actually, I'm pretty sure the only thing we know for sure is that this virus has been hyped more than anything in history. Not saying it's not bad. Just saying that if the political climate were different, the media might have presented this in a different way.


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## win231 (May 19, 2020)

This is what happens when an employee is not a "Team Player:"  (I've worked in places like this)
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fl...ovid-19-data/ar-BB14jG4Y?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


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## Butterfly (May 19, 2020)

Whether or not cases and deaths are being manipulated, do not forget that doctors and hospitals are losing HUGE sums because they are not doing routine surgeries, elective surgeries, orthopediac or cardiac surgeries, complicated diagnostic procedures, or much of anything else because of fear of infection with covid.  Many physicians, including specialists, are not even seeing patients in person.  And some small and/or rural hospitals and clinics will end up having to close their doors because they cannot sustain themselves.


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## rgp (May 19, 2020)

MarciKS said:


> With all the disagreements and arguing that goes on in COVID threads because certain people think they're the ones with the only viable answers, I can't believe this thread doesn't get closed.




 Why ?? Just because something might be controversial or argumentative it shouldn't be discussed? Isn't that just a bit of a "Rose colored Glasses" approach?


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## rgp (May 19, 2020)

CarolfromTX said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure the only thing we know for sure is that this virus has been hyped more than anything in history. Not saying it's not bad. Just saying that if the political climate were different, the media might have presented this in a different way.



 Exactly !!


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## Judycat (May 19, 2020)

So what does this all boil down to for the common individual sitting around at home? Should we demand to look at the books of our local hospital? Doctor? They'll probably tell us to get lost. Then what?


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## Ken N Tx (May 20, 2020)

Judycat said:


> So what does this all boil down to for the common individual sitting around at home? Should we demand to look at the books of our local hospital? Doctor? They'll probably tell us to get lost. Then what?


If it is on the Internet it must be true!!!


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2020)

C'est Moi said:


> I have been reading these reports for a week or so.   I posted this a few days ago... not even Birx has any confidence in the numbers.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/birx-said-nothing-cdc-trust-044212374.htm
> 
> _Deborah Birx, the White House's coronavirus task force response coordinator, blasted the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in a White House coronavirus task force meeting during a discussion on COVID-19 data, according to The Washington Post.  "There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust," she told CDC Director Robert Redfield, two people familiar with the meeting told the newspaper.
> 
> *The Post reported that Birx and others feared that the CDC's statistics on mortality rate and case counts were inflated by up to 25%*._


Don't trust any of the political parties.  They have politicized this CV to the hilt.
Yes doctor's are in it for the money.  That's why they head for the rich cities to practice.


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## Butterfly (May 20, 2020)

Camper6 said:


> Don't trust any of the political parties.  They have politicized this CV to the hilt.
> Yes doctor's are in it for the money.  That's why they head for the rich cities to practice.



Well, aren't we all in it for the money (whatever "it" is to each of us)?  I worked for 50+ years and certainly wasn't about to do it for free.  

And we all head to where there is work, don't we?  A physician is like anybody else --  he's not going to set up practice out where he has no patients or a hospital to support his patients.  

Not to mention the fact that most docs are carrying a load of huge school loans and malpractice insurance.


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## StarSong (May 20, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Well, aren't we all in it for the money (whatever "it" is to each of us)?  I worked for 50+ years and certainly wasn't about to do it for free.
> 
> And we all head to where there is work, don't we?  A physician is like anybody else --  he's not going to set up practice out where he has no patients or a hospital to support his patients.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that most docs are carrying a load of huge school loans and malpractice insurance.


Well said.


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2020)

Butterfly said:


> Well, aren't we all in it for the money (whatever "it" is to each of us)?  I worked for 50+ years and certainly wasn't about to do it for free.
> 
> And we all head to where there is work, don't we?  A physician is like anybody else --  he's not going to set up practice out where he has no patients or a hospital to support his patients.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that most docs are carrying a load of huge school loans and malpractice insurance.


Yep those are the facts alright.  Health care for profit.  
Thanks for listening.


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## Sunny (May 20, 2020)

All professions exist for profit, except those that are totally dedicated to charitable causes.  Why should the practice of medicine be any different? 

I don't understand the skepticism exhibited in this forum when talking about medical professionals who are, these days, putting their own lives on the line, and working around the clock to save others.  Should they be doing this for no pay?


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## Camper6 (May 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> All professions exist for profit, except those that are totally dedicated to charitable causes.  Why should the practice of medicine be any different?
> 
> I don't understand the skepticism exhibited in this forum when talking about medical professionals who are, these days, putting their own lives on the line, and working around the clock to save others.  Should they be doing this for no pay?


I've been around a long time.  I've never seen a physician go broke or apply for unemployment insurance. So I don't know what your point is for no pay.  Far from it.  One of the most lucrative professions in the U.S.

My point is that, that's the way it is.  No one is suggesting no pay.


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## fmdog44 (May 20, 2020)

I just read China is closing down areas a second time after partially reopening. Some 108,000,000 people are going to be put back in shut down. Yep, more good news.


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## RadishRose (May 20, 2020)

deleted


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## Judycat (May 20, 2020)

My throat is sore.


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## win231 (May 20, 2020)

Sunny said:


> All professions exist for profit, except those that are totally dedicated to charitable causes.  Why should the practice of medicine be any different?
> 
> I don't understand the skepticism exhibited in this forum when talking about medical professionals who are, these days, putting their own lives on the line, and working around the clock to save others.  Should they be doing this for no pay?


You are being an all-or-nothing-extremist.
This is not about doctors getting paid.  This is about the medical profession endangering the lives of people they took an oath to protect & doing it for extra profit.


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