# How many alienated children/parents in our country, and can anything be done?



## grahamg (Oct 28, 2022)

Yet another thread on this topic, and again if you'll bear with me, I wonder if anyone has tried to analyse just how many children and their parents/parent are alienated from one another in the UK or USA?

You'd expect such a statistic is available nowadays, and if a figure given to me thirty years ago is still anywhere near the mark, then 70% of fathers lose all contact with their children within two years of a divorce or breakdown of a relationship.

The question in the thread title leads on to another, "does the numbers of children never having contact with a parent/parents, affect the way our society functions as a whole"?

I accept that's a very broad question, linked to the question in my other recent thread on this topic.

Finally there's yet another question, if its decided any of the things being described are undesirable generally, " What if anything can or should be done about it"!


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## Giants fan1954 (Oct 28, 2022)

_My husband was alienated from his son and grandkids for 28 years his wife sided with the ex wife,although she had no personal experience with the marriage,they were divorced 4 years before she appeared on the scene.
In 2002,when his marriage was dissolving and I guess he understood his fathers side somewhat he entered our lives as well as his half brother and sister.
Im sure he's happy he got this opportunity when his dad got sick & died in 3 weeks in 2006,I know he now regrets the estrangement._


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## grahamg (Oct 30, 2022)

Some thoughts on whether anything could/should be done, (as suggested in OP might be worth considering).

A couple of possible campaign slogans:

"I'm proud of you as my child even if you're not proud of me as your father", (/mother/parent).

"I am unique child in your life, by both your inherited characteristics and care given over a number of years".(applies to both parents and grandparents).


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## grahamg (Oct 31, 2022)

More thoughts on possible slogans:

"Let's change the world by thinking about and appreciating the positive things our parents did for us".

"Turning your back on your parent, (and vice versa), makes the whole world a tougher, less caring place"!


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## grahamg (Nov 1, 2022)

More thoughts on possible slogans:

"Your parents dementia may be helped, slowed or even stopped, if you and the grandchildren stay in touch".

"Your interests first" makes a child more selfish than they might otherwise be, and they, (their parents of course), and the wider society might all be improved if it was better understood that the interest of others sometimes should be considered first.


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## Pepper (Nov 1, 2022)

You are certainly right in noting that alienation (& it's companion, loneliness) is amongst the biggest problems facing Western society today.


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## grahamg (Nov 1, 2022)

It is being reported here that research into patients in the USA suffering heart attacks recover more successfully if they have their families, (or wives/husbands/partners), around them when they go home from hospital.

Therefore the slogan could be:

"Contact with you children could help heal your mother or fathers heart"!


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## grahamg (Nov 3, 2022)

Another slogan or two:

"Putting the child's interests above everyone else's denies parent and child a private life", (any stranger or court appointed official can justify asking your child whether they love you for example!).

"Those who have loved and never harmed their child deserve the respect, (and right), that the courts should assume contact with them is in the child's interests".

"The biological link between parent and their child, (especially where the parents were formerly married), should not be disparaged, forcing them to try to defend themselves as though they were no more than a sperm donor"!


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## Book Worm (Nov 6, 2022)

grahamg said:


> Yet another thread on this topic, and again if you'll bear with me, I wonder if anyone has tried to analyse just how many children and their parents/parent are alienated from one another in the UK or USA?
> 
> You'd expect such a statistic is available nowadays, and if a figure given to me thirty years ago is still anywhere near the mark, then 70% of fathers lose all contact with their children within two years of a divorce or breakdown of a relationship.
> 
> ...


You call it alienation (do you mean parental alienation, which is when one parent actively does their best to make the kids dislike and not have contact or a relationship with the other parent). Sometimes it becomes both parental alienation and then the kids actively estrange from the other parent. So I am not sure which topic you are bringing up, parental alienation or estrangement by the adult children, but I thought you might be interested in the stats from estrangement researchers. How sad and sick this is and it is not good for the parties nor our society as a whole. It is 27% of USA families have some kind of estrangement in their extended family. 25% of UK families have some sort of estrangement in their extended family. know because I live this. The new meme is just dump the toxic people out of your life. On some levels, at times we have to reduce or eliminate contact with truly abusive people. But just dumping people brings on a loss - for them and for ourselves. Not knowing your other parent brings on a deep loss, a deep feeling of missing something or not being good enough to earn this person's love. A child often sees it from they did something wrong that the other parent doesn't love them enough to have contact or they have 1/2 bad within them from the alienated parent who is proclaimed to be a terrible person.


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## grahamg (Nov 6, 2022)

Book Worm said:


> You call it alienation (do you mean parental alienation, which is when one parent actively does their best to make the kids dislike and not have contact or a relationship with the other parent). Sometimes it becomes both parental alienation and then the kids actively estrange from the other parent. So I am not sure which topic you are bringing up, parental alienation or estrangement by the adult children, but I thought you might be interested in the stats from estrangement researchers. How sad and sick this is and it is not good for the parties nor our society as a whole. It is 27% of USA families have some kind of estrangement in their extended family. 25% of UK families have some sort of estrangement in their extended family. know because I live this. The new meme is just dump the toxic people out of your life. On some levels, at times we have to reduce or eliminate contact with truly abusive people. But just dumping people brings on a loss - for them and for ourselves. Not knowing your other parent brings on a deep loss, a deep feeling of missing something or not being good enough to earn this person's love. A child often sees it from they did something wrong that the other parent doesn't love them enough to have contact or they have 1/2 bad within them from the alienated parent who is proclaimed to be a terrible person.


Thank you for your response, and in answer to your question I am trying here to be open to both the options you laid out above, to be considered here. 

The cases may be different, (and I've no argument with you there), and to some extent the remedies, should there be any, will be largely different too. However, it crosses my mind what helps in one case may contribute a little to an improvement in the other.

Whatever the case I'm very gratified by your strong support on this, and as you indicate, the vast numbers involved in both the USA and UK should give everyone cause for thought.


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## Lee (Nov 6, 2022)

Family was different a generation or two ago. They had dinner together, they went to grandma's house Sunday or holidays, some went to church together. Most stayed in the town where they grew up.

In short, families bonded.

They still bond today but some move distances away, too tired after a week of work to see the old folks and the old folks in turn found other interests.


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## grahamg (Nov 6, 2022)

Lee said:


> Family was different a generation or two ago. They had dinner together, they went to grandma's house Sunday or holidays, some went to church together. Most stayed in the town where they grew up.
> In short, families bonded. They still bond today but some move distances away, too tired after a week of work to see the old folks and the old folks in turn found other interests.


If that's all there is to it, then regardless of any negative consequences arising from the alienation of so many children from their natural parents/parent could be justifiably ignored or dismissed, and folks could simply hold their hands up and say, "There's nothing to be done about it".

However, if as I'm suggesting, the vast numbers becoming alienated are the result of interference, (often by court appointed officials, at least in part), then this becomes a very different matter, with a host of consequences and even some possible solutions in a significant proportion of cases.


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## Lee (Nov 7, 2022)

Graham, if you are referring to a couple divorcing and fighting for guardianship of the kids the minute the courts get involved it turns into a tug of war with the kid trapped in the middle. It is sad that in many of these cases the parent that wins the prize (the kids live with me) have the control. Reason and fairness sometimes go out the window.

It can only be hoped that as the children grow older they realize that they have two parents, not one, and reconnect at that point.


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## grahamg (Nov 7, 2022)

Lee said:


> Graham, if you are referring to a couple divorcing and fighting for guardianship of the kids the minute the courts get involved it turns into a tug of war with the kid trapped in the middle. It is sad that in many of these cases the parent that wins the prize (the kids live with me) have the control. Reason and fairness sometimes go out the window.
> It can only be hoped that as the children grow older they realize that they have two parents, not one, and reconnect at that point.


I am "trying to cast my net as wide as possible" on this thread, so all aspects of children and their parents becoming alienated are of some relevance on this thread is my intention at least.


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2022)

Another possible slogan try to reduce alienation between parents and children:

"If you want your parent to be able to love you, dont let anyone try to pretend they are not unique"!


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## Pepper (Nov 13, 2022)

*To Be ABLE to Love You?*

Who says that to a kid?


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2022)

Pepper said:


> *To Be ABLE to Love You?*
> 
> Who says that to a kid?


It is asked all the time isnt it?

Do you love your father/mother?

Fathers get told not to tell their children they love them in letters (/indirect contact), because it upsets them too.

Not what I want to see obviously, but its just a statement of fact in the end isn't it. If the parent is denigrated and marginalised as a result oc this, what else do you think is going to happen to the love we'd all like to see expressed between decent parents and their children?


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## Remy (Nov 13, 2022)

I think this would be a hard thing to figure out. Like child abuse. Lots of things hidden.

I just mentioned in another thread my bio-dad never advocated to see us kids when my mother put a stop to it. I know he did stalk us some. He always figure out where we lived. I really never had a father figure. I had the dead beat and my enabler stepfather who never, ever, not once, protected us from my mother. 

I think there are good fathers who get their children turned away from them by the other spouse. As far as my father goes, I can also remember two specific instances where he did things to hurt me. I was never prioritized. I was never the child. I was used to get back at my mother.


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## Teacher Terry (Nov 13, 2022)

I also know plenty of people that worked together with their ex and shared custody so their kids had a stable childhood. Not everyone acts immature and vengeful.


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2022)

Teacher Terry said:


> I also know plenty of people that worked together with their ex and shared custody so their kids had a stable childhood. Not everyone acts immature and vengeful.


There are, we shouldn't forget them, and one who is a good friend of mine cooperated extremely well with her ex., (though not always easy she said, she largely didn't get angry with him, nor spoke badly of him to anyone). 
This level of cooperation came to benefit her eldest son when he had a mental breakdown, and his mum couldn't connect so well with him, but his dad still could somewhat, and in the end the boy came through it well.


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## grahamg (Nov 13, 2022)

Remy said:


> I think this would be a hard thing to figure out. Like child abuse. Lots of things hidden.
> I just mentioned in another thread my bio-dad never advocated to see us kids when my mother put a stop to it. I know he did stalk us some. He always figure out where we lived. I really never had a father figure. I had the dead beat and my enabler stepfather who never, ever, not once, protected us from my mother.
> I think there are good fathers who get their children turned away from them by the other spouse. As far as my father goes, I can also remember two specific instances where he did things to hurt me. I was never prioritized. I was never the child. I was used to get back at my mother.


You sound to me as though you are being as fair as possible here, and I can imagine how your stepfather behaved, and thank you for describing the way he was towards you.

The manipulation you state your own father practising isn't too much of a surprise to me unfortunately.

Following a marriage breakdown the ground opens up for those willing and able, (or prone), to try to manipulate those around them, not least even their own child, to do their worst in this respect. You only hope the child isn't completely taken in but very often the only way forward they can find is to accept the manipulation, whether they truly believed what they were being told or not.

Folks may shy away from some of the slogans I'm dreaming up, thinking a child shouldn't hear such things, or be reminded who might be unique, but they forget just how many other attempts are made to feed the child a narrative that isn't right, and little can be done to stop it.


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## grahamg (Nov 14, 2022)

When coping with whatever gets thrown at you following a divorce it isnt unheard of for the child to declare their parent as someone who is "Just a man", or something similar as though they have no qualities of merit worth mentioning (or considering).

These statements completely ignore whatever has been done for them before they've decided to put forward their condemnation, and is only to be expected, hence the need for some kind of campaign as a way of balancing the views being expressed.

It may not do any good, but I'd argue sometimes the right things have to be said whether anyone is likely to listen or not. The men or women breaking up the relationships of other couples carry some responsibility for their actions too, even though we have "no fault divorce", this does not automatically make everyone "fair game" does it.

As stated by another forum member above, those becoming stepparents dont always step up when needed as the father might have tried to do, and all these potential consequences follow dont they, and should be highlighted sometimes.


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## grahamg (Nov 14, 2022)

More thoughts along the lines of what should be said to children who declare their parent is "Just a man"!

Someone should be telling them the person they are denigrating did not look at you and say "You are just a child", (i.e. no different than any other).

They accepted you as you are, and you should do the same regarding your own parents: _"Accept them as they are, especially if they were married to your mother for a length of time, and helped raise you to the best of their ability. When all this has been done for you you have been a lucky child, having never been rejected by them"! _


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## Remy (Nov 14, 2022)

grahamg said:


> You sound to me as though you are being as fair as possible here, and I can imagine how your stepfather behaved, and thank you for describing the way he was towards you.
> 
> The manipulation you state your own father practising isn't too much of a surprise to me unfortunately.
> 
> ...


You do bring up some good points here. "accept the manipulation, whether they truly believed what they were being told or not." This is true. The child has no choice in the matter. Also once an adult they may still be very influenced and take years to process their childhood and what they were told.

"attempts are made to feed the child a narrative that isn't right and little can be done to stop it." True again. While my experience is different, I remember my mother scream raging at me, calling me horrible names,  throwing things, threatening, kicking and yet I, the child, was the problem while there was nothing wrong with this adult maniac. So yes, I know things get really twisted.


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## Sassycakes (Nov 14, 2022)

My son turned against me and my hubby almost 3 yrs ago. He lived near us and we helped him out a lot during the divorce. He cheated on his wife. I gave him our credit card and would tell his 2 boys that he gave me money to give them which was a lie,I gave them the money.My DIL did a wonderful job raising the boys on her own. They both got 4 yr scholorships to Collage


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## grahamg (Nov 14, 2022)

Remy said:


> You do bring up some good points here.


Thanks


Remy said:


> Grahamg wrote: "accept the manipulation, whether they truly believed what they were being told or not." Remy wrote: This is true. The child has no choice in the matter. Also once an adult they may still be very influenced and take years to process their childhood and what they were told.


We must accept our children being like the other parent, (celebrate it even), but ruthlessness in personal relationships may come with it without any undue influences, though most often not I'd say.


Remy said:


> Grahamg wrote: "attempts are made to feed the child a narrative that isn't right and little can be done to stop it."





Remy said:


> True again. While my experience is different, I remember my mother scream raging at me, calling me horrible names,  throwing things, threatening, kicking and yet I, the child, was the problem while there was nothing wrong with this adult maniac. So yes, I know things get really twisted.


I occasionally think of Dickensian characters where estrangement occurred, and lots of twisted things happen, (obviously for dramatic effect).

There's a good measure of agreement between us, (more than I found when I used to take part in discussions on fathers rights forums, where the obsession appears to be "equal parenting").

What can be done about any of this I don't know, and I've even become cynical about what I see as extravagant claims made during countrywide charity fund raising campaigns, and they say " They're turning children's lives around" - I'd prefer to hear fewer children's lives needed "turning around".


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