# What the Covid 19 vaccine side effects feels like



## Ronni

Two and a half hours after being injected with a Covid-19 vaccine, Dr. Taneisha Wilson was hit with the worst headache of her life.

 “Can’t even tell I had the shot,” said a hospital worker in Iowa City

uncontrolled shivering and “brain fog.”

And there was a dizzying variety of sore arms. Some likened the pain to that from a flu shot; for others, it was considerably worse.

Full article here


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## Sunny

From today's Washington Post:​Think about getting vaccinated like voting. It’s your civic duty.​





A nurse prepares a Moderna coronavirus vaccine in New York on Dec. 23. (Carlo Allegri/Reuters)
Opinion by Joan Bregstein
Dec. 28, 2020 at 12:54 p.m. EST

_Joan Bregstein is an attending physician in the department of emergency medicine at the Columbia University Irving Medical Center in New York City._
When I arrived at the hospital where I work to receive a covid-19 vaccine last week, the scene reminded me of an Election Day polling place during a highly contested election. The pace was frenetic; the crowd was proud to be there; and,  similar to the stickers at the polls, they wore their red and white “I’ve Been Vaccinated” stickers prominently on their chests as they exited. Everyone was having fun — something that is in short supply in emergency departments these days.

But I was shocked to discover that several health-care workers I know declined their vaccine dose. In the staff lounge this week, I heard:

“Too early; I’ll wait and see.”
“Not interested.”

“Not for me.”
It’s the same attitude you find among people who don’t vote: “Too much trouble.” “One more vote won’t count.” “Someone else will do it.”

We cannot allow such thinking to take hold. As with voting, the only way our nation can succeed in moving on from this pandemic is if we all do our part. To be fair, most of my emergency and intensive-care colleagues did not share that reluctant reaction to the vaccine. For many of them, the day they received the email from the hospital that they were able to receive the vaccine was like a new V-day. One of my friends, who had been working remotely from Boston, immediately got in her car when she got the word and drove four hours directly to New York. Later that evening, after putting her kids to sleep, another took an Uber to the hospital in her pajamas.

For me, the day could even be a future national holiday. It forecasts the restoration of life as we knew it, but even better. It is a day marking the beginning of saving and re-creating lives, opening up life-changing possibilities and resuscitating the economy. It means my daughter might have the wedding this summer that she has hoped for.
The moment my email arrived, my adrenaline kicked in and, still horizontal in bed, I began furiously texting my great news to more than a dozen people. Within minutes, my euphoria turned to guilt. How could I flaunt my anxiously awaited great fortune to others whose hopes for the vaccine would not be satisfied for the indefinite future?

But no, I realized, I wasn’t flaunting. I was shouting to the world: “It is here! it is happening!” Although I am among the first to receive the vaccine, I won’t benefit from it until an overwhelming majority of Americans is vaccinated too. My own personal protection keeps me from getting sick; it does not speak to my level of contagion to others, and I might still be able to spread the virus to someone else. Until we reach herd immunity, none of us will be able to remove our masks, to hug without hesitation and to fearlessly touch another person.

Some calculations show that if 61 percent of Americans (202 million) receive the vaccine in the next five months, we could probably achieve herd immunity by July 2021. If another 10 million Americans receive the vaccine in that time frame, we can achieve herd immunity by May. Of course, this does not speak to how long herd immunity will last and if we will need booster shots if our immunity wanes, like with the flu, but at least it is a start. It also embraces the unlikely assumption that all Americans will be offered the vaccine by April. With the phased approach of vaccine distribution, we will probably not see this. However, it does speak to the enormous potential of vaccination.
Thus, it is not just a privilege to receive this vaccine first. It feels like a patriotic gesture and my responsibility as a member of the American community. And just like with voting, this patriotic duty will not come without effort.
Those who are less excited about getting a jab in their arm are right about one thing: One vaccination isn’t going to change life in this pandemic. In the short run, it might not even change your life that much. But as more vaccines are distributed, the numbers will add up. It will take a large majority of us to be vaccinated before we can make a difference, but together, we can make it happen. Health-care workers, who have been offered the vaccine first, should lead the pack, not only in receiving the vaccine, but in modeling for others to receive it, too.

We can achieve herd immunity, and all it involves is a series of two shots. My first was quick; it was painless; it was symptom-free. Most important, it was safe.
In March, we asked you to stay home to help us save lives. Now we are asking you to get vaccinated. Next phase will be the elderly and essential workers. When you are called, please say yes.


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## win231

If the vaccine was safe, you would have trouble finding any health care workers who refused it.
They know a little more than we do.


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## Sunny

How many people have died from the vaccine, compared with the number of people who have died from the disease?


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## Sassycakes

I was wondering if there was a web site saying if you are allergic to something like penicillin or some other issue that would mean you shouldn't take the vaccine.


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## win231

Sunny said:


> From today's Washington Post:​Think about getting vaccinated like voting. It’s your civic duty.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A nurse prepares a Moderna coronavirus vaccine in New York on Dec. 23. (Carlo Allegri/Reuters)
> Opinion by Joan Bregstein
> Dec. 28, 2020 at 12:54 p.m. EST
> 
> _Joan Bregstein is an attending physician in the department of emergency medicine at the Columbia University Irving Medical Center in New York City._
> When I arrived at the hospital where I work to receive a covid-19 vaccine last week, the scene reminded me of an Election Day polling place during a highly contested election. The pace was frenetic; the crowd was proud to be there; and,  similar to the stickers at the polls, they wore their red and white “I’ve Been Vaccinated” stickers prominently on their chests as they exited. Everyone was having fun — something that is in short supply in emergency departments these days.
> 
> But I was shocked to discover that several health-care workers I know declined their vaccine dose. In the staff lounge this week, I heard:
> 
> “Too early; I’ll wait and see.”
> “Not interested.”
> 
> “Not for me.”
> It’s the same attitude you find among people who don’t vote: “Too much trouble.” “One more vote won’t count.” “Someone else will do it.”
> 
> We cannot allow such thinking to take hold. As with voting, the only way our nation can succeed in moving on from this pandemic is if we all do our part. To be fair, most of my emergency and intensive-care colleagues did not share that reluctant reaction to the vaccine. For many of them, the day they received the email from the hospital that they were able to receive the vaccine was like a new V-day. One of my friends, who had been working remotely from Boston, immediately got in her car when she got the word and drove four hours directly to New York. Later that evening, after putting her kids to sleep, another took an Uber to the hospital in her pajamas.
> 
> For me, the day could even be a future national holiday. It forecasts the restoration of life as we knew it, but even better. It is a day marking the beginning of saving and re-creating lives, opening up life-changing possibilities and resuscitating the economy. It means my daughter might have the wedding this summer that she has hoped for.
> The moment my email arrived, my adrenaline kicked in and, still horizontal in bed, I began furiously texting my great news to more than a dozen people. Within minutes, my euphoria turned to guilt. How could I flaunt my anxiously awaited great fortune to others whose hopes for the vaccine would not be satisfied for the indefinite future?
> 
> But no, I realized, I wasn’t flaunting. I was shouting to the world: “It is here! it is happening!” Although I am among the first to receive the vaccine, I won’t benefit from it until an overwhelming majority of Americans is vaccinated too. My own personal protection keeps me from getting sick; it does not speak to my level of contagion to others, and I might still be able to spread the virus to someone else. Until we reach herd immunity, none of us will be able to remove our masks, to hug without hesitation and to fearlessly touch another person.
> 
> Some calculations show that if 61 percent of Americans (202 million) receive the vaccine in the next five months, we could probably achieve herd immunity by July 2021. If another 10 million Americans receive the vaccine in that time frame, we can achieve herd immunity by May. Of course, this does not speak to how long herd immunity will last and if we will need booster shots if our immunity wanes, like with the flu, but at least it is a start. It also embraces the unlikely assumption that all Americans will be offered the vaccine by April. With the phased approach of vaccine distribution, we will probably not see this. However, it does speak to the enormous potential of vaccination.
> Thus, it is not just a privilege to receive this vaccine first. It feels like a patriotic gesture and my responsibility as a member of the American community. And just like with voting, this patriotic duty will not come without effort.
> Those who are less excited about getting a jab in their arm are right about one thing: One vaccination isn’t going to change life in this pandemic. In the short run, it might not even change your life that much. But as more vaccines are distributed, the numbers will add up. It will take a large majority of us to be vaccinated before we can make a difference, but together, we can make it happen. Health-care workers, who have been offered the vaccine first, should lead the pack, not only in receiving the vaccine, but in modeling for others to receive it, too.
> 
> We can achieve herd immunity, and all it involves is a series of two shots. My first was quick; it was painless; it was symptom-free. Most important, it was safe.
> In March, we asked you to stay home to help us save lives. Now we are asking you to get vaccinated. Next phase will be the elderly and essential workers. When you are called, please say yes.


It's NOBODY'S "Civic Duty" to get any vaccine.  Health decisions are individual & have nothing to do with civic duty.  And trying to guilt people into getting a vaccine is a sure way to get intelligent people to think twice about it.


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## CarolfromTX

I’m following the science. Which says take the vaccine.


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## win231

Sassycakes said:


> I was wondering if there was a web site saying if you are allergic to something like penicillin or some other issue that would mean you shouldn't take the vaccine.


So far, they've only mentioned allergies.  The problem is the vaccine is too new & hasn't been tested & studied enough, so any problems will be added as they occur, rather than being predicted.


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## MarciKS

*i have a lengthy list of medication allergies one of which is penicillin. i was fine. the most bothersome side effect was a sore arm. i was a little more tired than normal and i was a little nauseated. that was it. i will gladly keep you informed in january when i get the second dose if you girls want me to.   

in the vaccine thread that remy posted i posted the ingredients for both if you girls are interested.*


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## Sassycakes

MarciKS said:


> *i have a lengthy list of medication allergies one of which is penicillin. i was fine. the most bothersome side effect was a sore arm. i was a little more tired than normal and i was a little nauseated. that was it. i will gladly keep you informed in january when i get the second dose if you girls want me to.
> 
> in the vaccine thread that remy posted i posted the ingredients for both if you girls are interested.*


  I was wondering about Penicillin because my Husband is allergic to it.
I'm happy to hear you did well. Please let us know about your January shot also.


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## MarciKS

*i will be more than happy to hon. i'm usually allergic to everything medicinal so if i can take it you guys should be ok. i'm not sure if people on RA meds should take it because i think those immunocompromising meds?? i would check with your drs because our CMO said they're making a bigger deal out of the side effects than what's actually happening.*


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## MarciKS

*the day i got mine i had no idea wth they were injecting in me. i had to make a choice between getting covid (which btw is making the rounds in our dept currently...one poor thing got exposed before her vaccine so now she's been vaccinated and has covid) or getting a shot and having a bad reaction in a hospital where they could save me. i chose to take the chance on the shot. i was terrified and if i can tell you what i'm going through so you guys don't have to be scared then i will. because if it's good then i want you guys to feel safe enough to get it so you won't get sick and die.*


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## win231

Sassycakes said:


> I was wondering about Penicillin because my Husband is allergic to it.
> I'm happy to hear you did well. Please let us know about your January shot also.


I also had a bad reaction to a Sulfa drug I was given for a foot infection that started with Athlete's Foot.  I developed a rash, then large dark brown spots on the palms of my hands & the bottom of my feet.  Then, the spots on my hands turned to large itchy blisters & when the blisters started healing, the skin started coming off my hands in huge chunks - like a mummy with the wrapping coming off.  It really freaked me out - until I noticed new skin growing under the skin that was falling off.
The funny thing was when I told the doctor what was happening & he said, "Just keep taking the penicillin until they're all finished."  I just threw the rest of them away.  The Rx ointment he prescribed got rid of the infection by itself.

When a doctor suggests a Covid vaccine, I'll just laugh & say, "Someone else can have mine."


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## Shalimar

win231 said:


> It's NOBODY'S "Civic Duty" to get any vaccine.  Health decisions are individual & have nothing to do with civic duty.  And trying to guilt people into getting a vaccine is a sure way to get intelligent people to think twice about it.


I am an intelligent person, and  I respectfully disagree with both of these statements. Many Canadians would.


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## win231

Shalimar said:


> I am an intelligent person, and  I respectfully disagree with both of these statements. Many Canadians would.


Well, ya know, Canadians are more intelligent than everyone else.....


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## Sunny

> When a doctor suggests a Covid vaccine, I'll just laugh & say, "Someone else can have mine."



That statement alone says volumes about your level of maturity and common sense, Win.

Today's paper had a leading headline about how the death toll in my state reached its highest point yesterday. It described the chaos and tragedy in many of our hospitals, especially in the rural areas.  And people aren't only dying of Covid; because of this disease, their treatment for cancer and other terrible illnesses is greatly delayed. The hospital has only so many beds, and most of them are taken up by Covid patients.

I hope that continues to amuse you, Win.


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## StarSong

Sunny said:


> That statement alone says volumes about your level of maturity and common sense, Win.
> 
> Today's paper had a leading headline about how the death toll in my state reached its highest point yesterday. It described the chaos and tragedy in many of our hospitals, especially in the rural areas.  And people aren't only dying of Covid; because of this disease, their treatment for cancer and other terrible illnesses is greatly delayed. The hospital has only so many beds, and most of them are taken up by Covid patients.
> 
> I hope that continues to amuse you, Win.



California's cases are also continuing to explode.  Los Angeles ICUs are beyond capacity (other hospital areas are being converted to ICUs), impacting Covid and non Covid patients.  Since Win also lives in Los Angeles,.  

I'll be in line the moment I'm offered a vaccine.    

My sister and DIL both work in health care and have been vaccinated.  No big deal on their side effects.  Sore arm for a few day.  For a couple of days one felt general malaise the other had slight fatigue.  Both said their reactions weren't anything close to the level of illness they've seen Covid itself bring.


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## Denise1952

God gave me my freedom of choice, and I choose not to get a vaccine.  Everyone else can do what they like, but you that are getting the vaccine best not be judging those that decide against it.  No one knows how it will effect each individual, no one, and don't give me some poll or numbers to make it "only" right to have the vaccine.


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## win231

Sunny said:


> That statement alone says volumes about your level of maturity and common sense, Win.
> 
> Today's paper had a leading headline about how the death toll in my state reached its highest point yesterday. It described the chaos and tragedy in many of our hospitals, especially in the rural areas.  And people aren't only dying of Covid; because of this disease, their treatment for cancer and other terrible illnesses is greatly delayed. The hospital has only so many beds, and most of them are taken up by Covid patients.
> 
> I hope that continues to amuse you, Win.


None of that information convinces me that the vaccine will fix everything or that it's safe.
And, what does amuse me is the way you can't disagree with me without childish insults.  That speaks volumes about_ your_ maturity level.
Also amusing is how effectively robotic programming works on you & how your brain soaks up everything presented to it like a sponge.
Perhaps they're both made of the same material.


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## Denise1952

to be honest here, I'm glad that some people are taking the vaccine, lots of guinea pigs to try it out on (I hope the best for all of them, be sure of that).  Then I can be sure whether or not I want a vaccine, which I understand you need 2 shots of it.  One nurse came forward and even made a video of how it affected her with Bells Palsey.  I hear that goes away, but not sure.  Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, heard that one all my life.  I still say have it if you want, but it's good to be open to others' decisions as well.

I watch and read way more than what Mainstream Media "allows" me to see and hear, then decide on what I choose to believe.

PS I don't want to start another thread and I think this will fit in, but have any of you heard or read that patients with Covid, or that have died from Covid (many of I think it say) are Vitamin D deficient?  I thought it was interesting because I started taking a prescription my doc gave me, just a couple months before Covid hit.  I take it every day rain or shine, and then read that article, I'll look for it and attach it here if I can find it again.  Here's one:
https://www.healthline.com/health-n...of-covid-19-patients-were-vitamin-d-deficient


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## Shalimar

Denise1952 said:


> God gave me my freedom of choice, and I choose not to get a vaccine.  Everyone else can do what they like, but you that are getting the vaccine best not be judging those that decide against it.  No one knows how it will effect each individual, no one, and don't give me some poll or numbers to make it "only" right to have the vaccine.


   Difficult for some of us not to judge. Unless they remain at home, those who prefer not to be vaccinated are at greater risk of contracting Covid, and passing it on to others. To date, I have said heartbreaking goodbyes via telephone to nine of my vets, all of whom have died. Immune systems compromised by Service injuries. There will be more. Are we not our brother’s keeper?


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## Denise1952

Shalimar said:


> Difficult for some of us not to judge. Unless they remain at home, those who prefer not to be vaccinated are at greater risk of contracting Covid, and passing it on to others. To date, I have said heartbreaking goodbyes via telephone to nine of my vets, all of whom have died. Immune systems compromised by Service injuries. There will be more. Are we not our brother’s keeper?


Yes, very hard not to judge.  Part of what is wrong in the world we live in.  Mainly it's hard to look at your own faults before you try to look at others.  You don't know if the vaccine will work Shalimar so you are wrong in telling me I am at greater risk.  I've read where some vaccinated actually got Covid.  But you can say "to a lesser degree" if you like.  But some getting Covid are over it in a couple of days too.  I'm sorry for your losses but I don't accept your guilt trip on my shoulders.  I don't know all the circumstances of folks dying of Covid.  Was it Covid?  There's a lot more experiences and opinions out there besides yours and mine shalimar.


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## Aunt Marg

Denise1952 said:


> to be honest here, I'm glad that some people are taking the vaccine, lots of guinea pigs to try it out on (I hope the best for all of them, be sure of that).  Then I can be sure whether or not I want a vaccine, which I understand you need 2 shots of it.  *One nurse came forward and even made a video of how it affected her with Bells Palsey.  I hear that goes away, but not sure.*  Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, heard that one all my life.  I still say have it if you want, but it's good to be open to others' decisions as well.
> 
> I watch and read way more than what Mainstream Media "allows" me to see and hear, then decide on what I choose to believe.
> 
> PS I don't want to start another thread and I think this will fit in, but have any of you heard or read that patients with Covid, or that have died from Covid (many of I think it say) are Vitamin D deficient?  I thought it was interesting because I started taking a prescription my doc gave me, just a couple months before Covid hit.  I take it every day rain or shine, and then read that article, I'll look for it and attach it here if I can find it again.  Here's one:
> https://www.healthline.com/health-n...of-covid-19-patients-were-vitamin-d-deficient


Re: Bell's Palsy, yes and no, as far as it going away.

Many who get it don't recover and are left with faces that are contorted and deformed for life, had an uncle who was one of them.


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## Shalimar

Denise1952 said:


> Yes, very hard not to judge.  Part of what is wrong in the world we live in.  Mainly it's hard to look at your own faults before you try to look at others.  You don't know if the vaccine will work Shalimar so you are wrong in telling me I am at greater risk.  I've read where some vaccinated actually got Covid.  But you can say "to a lesser degree" if you like.  But some getting Covid are over it in a couple of days too.  I'm sorry for your losses but I don't accept your guilt trip on my shoulders.  I don't know all the circumstances of folks dying of Covid.  Was it Covid?  There's a lot more experiences and opinions out there besides yours and mine shalimar.


    My, such anger and defensiveness over a difference of opinion. My opinion and experience follow the science, nothing more, nothing less. As for personal attacks, “mainly it’s hard to look at your own faults before you try to look at others.” Hmmm.


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## Denise1952

Aunt Marg said:


> Re: Bell's Palsy, yes and no, as far as it going away.
> 
> Many who get it don't recover and are left with faces that are contorted and deformed for life, had an uncle who was one of them.


Yes, the nurse making the video was in tears and she took her mask off and showed everyone.  It was bad.  Then there were articles poopooing her experience.  Who knows for sure, but I believed her.  Maybe I am naive too


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## Aunt Marg

Denise1952 said:


> Yes, the nurse making the video was in tears and she took her mask off and showed everyone.  It was bad.  Then there were articles poopooing her experience.  Who knows for sure, but I believed her.  Maybe I am naive too


I seen that video and it's hreatbreaking.

All I wanted to do was give that poor girl a hug and hold her.


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## Denise1952

Shalimar said:


> My, such anger and defensiveness over a difference of opinion. My opinion and experience follow the science, nothing more, nothing less. As for personal attacks, “mainly it’s hard to look at your own faults before you try to look at others.” Hmmm.


Really? That is what you read in this?  Funny but I didn't feel that way at all towards you.  I felt you might be open to someone else's opinion.  I don't think you've seen me angry or defensive Shalimar, I hope not.  Because I have been both and I work hard at keeping those feelings, that can turn into actions (words) out of my life.  I admit I do fail at times, especially just when I'm starting to think I'm perfect


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## Denise1952

Aunt Marg said:


> I seen that video and it's hreatbreaking.
> 
> All I wanted to do was give that poor girl a hug and hold her.


I hear you, my sister sent it to me and was asking what she should do about the vaccine.  I was honest and said I believed the gal but that's all I could say.  My sis is 10 years older than I and has osteoarthritis.  I just told her what I would tell anyone, you have to decide that for yourself sis.  I don't know what is good for someone else.  I have a hard enough time deciding what's good for me.


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## Aunt Marg

Denise1952 said:


> I hear you, my sister sent it to me and was asking what she should do about the vaccine.  I was honest and said I believed the gal but that's all I could say.  My sis is 10 years older than I and has osteoarthritis.  I just told her what I would tell anyone, you have to decide that for yourself sis.  I don't know what is good for someone else.  I have a hard enough time deciding what's good for me.


That's all we can do is extend to others advice, that we deem as being the best or most right at the time.


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## win231

Shalimar said:


> Difficult for some of us not to judge. Unless they remain at home, those who prefer not to be vaccinated are at greater risk of contracting Covid, and passing it on to others. To date, I have said heartbreaking goodbyes via telephone to nine of my vets, all of whom have died. Immune systems compromised by Service injuries. There will be more. Are we not our brother’s keeper?


When someone's immune system is severely compromised, they can succumb to anything.  Including a vaccine which works by stressing the immune system.  As with any drug/vaccine/medical test or procedure, it's a matter of personal choice.  Nothing whatsoever to do with responsibility or protecting others.
Many people who try to convince others to get a vaccine are seeking confidence in their decision to get it - Confidence in numbers.
And if people who choose the vaccine had confidence in it, it wouldn't matter to them if others didn't choose to get it, since they would be protected.
We see the same mindset in other health issues - People who choose to have colonoscopies & other medical tests often try to convince others to have them.  They're looking for validation for their decision.


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## Shalimar

win231 said:


> When someone's immune system is severely compromised, they can succumb to anything.  Including a vaccine which works by stressing the immune system.  As with any drug/vaccine/medical test or procedure, it's a matter of personal choice.  Nothing whatsoever to do with responsibility or protecting others.
> Many people who try to convince others to get a vaccine are seeking confidence in their decision to get it - Confidence in numbers.
> And if people who choose the vaccine had confidence in it, it wouldn't matter to them if others didn't choose to get it, since they would be protected.
> We see the same mindset in other health issues - People who choose to have colonoscopies & other medical tests often try to convince others to have them.  They're looking for validation for their decision.


   Hmmm, never have been one to need validation from others in order to make my decisions.


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## win231

Shalimar said:


> My, such anger and defensiveness over a difference of opinion. My opinion and experience follow the science, nothing more, nothing less. As for personal attacks, “mainly it’s hard to look at your own faults before you try to look at others.” Hmmm.


Shalimar, you are reading "Anger" into a post where no anger exists.  What does exist is a difference of opinion - a difference you are not able to accept.


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## win231

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm, never have been one to need validation from others in order to make my decisions.


If that were true, you would have NO reason to convince others to get a vaccine, since you would be protected by your vaccine, along with everyone else you convinced to get a vaccine.


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## Denise1952

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm, never have been one to need validation from others in order to make my decisions.


I like to get people's feedback on important decisions I have to make.  I also pray to God to show me the way He would have me go.  But it's one reason I need people in my life.  I may not like what they have to say, but I want to be open to it as I know I don't know everything.


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## KenMill

Me no take. Lack of evidence showing long-term effects is bothersome. Great quick-fix for those in the trenches, but for the rest of us... hmm.


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## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Shalimar, you are reading "Anger" into a post where no anger exists.  What does exist is a difference of opinion - a difference you are not able to accept.


    I have no issue with different opinions, only snarky remarks. Most Canadians value courtesy. 


win231 said:


> If that were true, you would have NO reason to convince others to get a vaccine, since you would be protected by your vaccine, along with everyone else you convinced to get a vaccine.


 What interesting mindset you have, reading minds? Lol. Not everyone thinks as you do.


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## win231

Shalimar said:


> I have no issue with different opinions, only snarky remarks. Most Canadians value courtesy.
> 
> What interesting mindset you have, reading minds? Lol. Not everyone thinks as you do.


Ya got that right.  NO ONE can snark like I can.  Thank you for the compliment.


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## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Thank you for the compliment.


   Lmao.


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## Denise1952

KenMill said:


> Me no take. Lack of evidence showing long-term effects is bothersome. Great quick-fix for those in the trenches, but for the rest of us... hmm.


quick-fix is something I also look at.  I read most vaccines take years to develop, this one, a year, less than a year I think??  More will be revealed and I'm for waiting for the "more"


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## win231

Denise1952 said:


> quick-fix is something I also look at.  I read most vaccines take years to develop, this one, a year, less than a year I think??  More will be revealed and I'm for waiting for the "more"


Yes.  It takes 10-15 years to develop a vaccine:
_Vaccine development_ is a long, complex _process_, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement. The current system ...
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation


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## KenMill

Hmm. Lasik eye surgery is supposed to be an instant fix. Why is it that my eye doctor and his associates all wear glasses?


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## Rosemarie

Sassycakes said:


> I was wondering if there was a web site saying if you are allergic to something like penicillin or some other issue that would mean you shouldn't take the vaccine.


That's what they are telling people here in the UK. Many people have allergies to various things, so they are right to be cautious.


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## win231

KenMill said:


> Hmm. Lasik eye surgery is supposed to be an instant fix. Why is it that my eye doctor and his associates all wear glasses?


I've had several optometrists & a couple of eye doctors try to convince me to have Lasik.  They were all very disappointed when I said, "I'd like to research it first; I have a dry eye problem & it might not be a good idea."  At the time, it was $3,000.00 per eye.  Could that have had something to do with their disappointment?
I found that the procedure can exacerbate a dry eye problem & also has the risk of making the eyes too sensitive to light & some people have had to wear sunglasses constantly, even indoors.  When I mentioned that to one eye doctor, he said,_ "Oh.....don't worry; those problems are very rare, besides, we can do another surgery for your dry eyes."_
I also found that as we age, more surgeries are needed to maintain good vision.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> If the vaccine was safe, you would have trouble finding any health care workers who refused it.
> They know a little more than we do.


Not necessarily


----------



## Aneeda72

MarciKS said:


> *i have a lengthy list of medication allergies one of which is penicillin. i was fine. the most bothersome side effect was a sore arm. i was a little more tired than normal and i was a little nauseated. that was it. i will gladly keep you informed in january when i get the second dose if you girls want me to.
> 
> in the vaccine thread that remy posted i posted the ingredients for both if you girls are interested.*


I have lots of medication allergies including penicillin, I am getting vaccinated


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> Hmmm, never have been one to need validation from others in order to make my decisions.


Every time you try to convince others to make the same decisions you make, you are seeking validation.


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Every time you try to convince others to make the same decisions you make, you are seeking validation.


   Ummm, I think that last time I checked, the position of God was taken, but please feel free to apply.


----------



## Aneeda72

Denise1952 said:


> God gave me my freedom of choice, and I choose not to get a vaccine.  Everyone else can do what they like, but you that are getting the vaccine best not be judging those that decide against it.  No one knows how it will effect each individual, no one, and don't give me some poll or numbers to make it "only" right to have the vaccine.


I think if you don’t want to get the vaccine, then don’t get it.  Someone else can have yours.  But I also think that anyone who is offered the vaccine and refuses it should not receive medical treatment when they get COVID-19.

 Nothing against you personally, or anyone else but getting treatment and a hospital bed for COVID-19 is not an entitlement that people who refuse the vaccine are entitled too, IMO.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> I think if you don’t want to get the vaccine, then don’t get it.  Someone else can have yours.  But I also think that anyone who is offered the vaccine and refuses it should not receive medical treatment when they get COVID-19.
> 
> Nothing against you personally, or anyone else but getting treatment and a hospital bed for COVID-19 is not an entitlement that people who refuse the vaccine are entitled too, IMO.


Uh, well, OK.  Then it would also be fair to refuse medical treatment to anyone who took the vaccine & got sick from it.
Or who took the vaccine & got Covid, anyway, like that nurse.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Every time you try to convince others to make the same decisions you make, you are seeking validation.


That’s not true and you know I like you @win231.  Caring people who believe it is life saving to take the vaccine, and people, like me, who like you, want you to take the vaccine in order to have you around as long as possible.  I would HATE, hate for you, or anyone else, to get Covid.

I am heartbroken at all the deaths.  I am heartbroken that my son, my daughter, my SIL, and my great granddaughter all had COVID, and grateful that they are still alive.

I just want it to stop, I need no validation for that, I just want everyone alive and well.  Please God in your mercy, make it stop.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Uh, well, OK.  Then it would also be fair to refuse medical treatment to anyone who took the vaccine & got sick from it.
> Or who took the vaccine & got Covid, anyway, like that nurse.


No that’s comparing apples to oranges, no comparison.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> That’s not true and you know I like you @win231.  Caring people who believe it is life saving to take the vaccine, and people, like me, who like you, want you to take the vaccine in order to have you around as long as possible.  I would HATE, hate for you, or anyone else, to get Covid.
> 
> I am heartbroken at all the deaths.  I am heartbroken that my son, my daughter, my SIL, and my great granddaughter all had COVID, and grateful that they are still alive.
> 
> I just want it to stop, I need no validation for that, I just want everyone alive and well.  Please God in your mercy, make it stop.


We all want it to stop.  But there is cause for concern with this situation - for many reasons.  Positive thinking is great, but sometimes desperate people grab anything.


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Every time you try to convince others to make the same decisions you make, you are seeking validation.


Win, you never disappoint, appreciate the comedic relief. For those of us involved in providing emotional support to frontline and essential workers, patients dying of Covid and their families, etc, laughter has been in short supply. Thanks for the opportunity to laugh my head off


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> No that’s comparing apples to oranges, no comparison.


Valid comparison.  Both have 15 gms sugar, 4 gms fiber & around 70 calories.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Valid comparison.  Both have 15 gms sugar, 4 gms fiber & around 70 calories.


Yes but I can eat an apple, can’t eat an orange too much acid so invalid comparison


----------



## MarciKS

win231 said:


> When a doctor suggests a Covid vaccine, I'll just laugh & say, *"Someone else can have mine."*


*thanks. i'll take it.*


----------



## MarciKS

*i'm not judging anyone and i certainly don't want to see hostility over it either. i don't like being called a guinea pig either. i'm just doing my best every day to survive. *


----------



## Denise1952

win231 said:


> I've had several optometrists & a couple of eye doctors try to convince me to have Lasik.  They were all very disappointed when I said, "I'd like to research it first; I have a dry eye problem & it might not be a good idea."  At the time, it was $3,000.00 per eye.  Could that have had something to do with their disappointment?
> I found that the procedure can exacerbate a dry eye problem & also has the risk of making the eyes too sensitive to light & some people have had to wear sunglasses constantly, even indoors.  When I mentioned that to one eye doctor, he said,_ "Oh.....don't worry; those problems are very rare, besides, we can do another surgery for your dry eyes."_
> I also found that as we age, more surgeries are needed to maintain good vision.


----------



## Denise1952

It's hardly been enough time to test it out for safety so I'd just rather take my chances on staying healthy in alternative ways, and if I get sick with covid, I have alternatives lined up for me to fight it.  I know "of" a few that are doing that now with very good results.  I don't know them personally.  I'm the same way about Cancer if I get that, I'm going to try the alternatives.  I'm pretty much that way with all or any of my health issues.  I go for the home-remedies, alternative remedies first.  So far so good.  

I apologize for using the term Guinea Pig, I shouldn't have used it Marci.


----------



## Denise1952

Aneeda72 said:


> I think if you don’t want to get the vaccine, then don’t get it.  Someone else can have yours.  But I also think that anyone who is offered the vaccine and refuses it should not receive medical treatment when they get COVID-19.
> 
> Nothing against you personally, or anyone else but getting treatment and a hospital bed for COVID-19 is not an entitlement that people who refuse the vaccine are entitled too, IMO.


So anyone choosing against the vaccine has to be punished if they were wrong.  I don't go along with that.  That would pretty much apply to anyone who made a wrong choice and needed a hospital bed in your book.  Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with that.


----------



## MarciKS

Denise1952 said:


> It's hardly been enough time to test it out for safety so I'd just rather take my chances on staying healthy in alternative ways, and if I get sick with covid, I have alternatives lined up for me to fight it.  I know "of" a few that are doing that now with very good results.  I don't know them personally.  I'm the same way about Cancer if I get that, I'm going to try the alternatives.  I'm pretty much that way with all or any of my health issues.  I go for the home-remedies, alternative remedies first.  So far so good.
> 
> I apologize for using the term Guinea Pig, I shouldn't have used it Marci.


just keep in mind that some of us are getting these vaccinations so we can be there to help with your care should you get sick. we can't assist you if we're dead. you know?


----------



## Denise1952

I doubt I'll forget that.


----------



## Jeni

win231 said:


> When someone's immune system is severely compromised, they can succumb to anything.  Including a vaccine which works by stressing the immune system.  As with any drug/vaccine/medical test or procedure, it's a matter of personal choice.  Nothing whatsoever to do with responsibility or protecting others.
> Many people who try to convince others to get a vaccine are seeking confidence in their decision to get it - Confidence in numbers.
> And if people who choose the vaccine had confidence in it, it wouldn't matter to them if others didn't choose to get it, since they would be protected.
> We see the same mindset in other health issues - People who choose to have colonoscopies & other medical tests often try to convince others to have them.  They're looking for validation for their decision.


I agree that many want to reinforce their own decision. 
I look around and see so many medications that were not rushed in R&D and deemed safe.......... then in a years time after the flashy ads for the drugs ......NOW  ads have attorneys saying "call if you had this reaction or that reaction to get in on a class action lawsuit."....

I really think people need to make their own choices and respect other peoples choices......... clinical trials do not have every side effect possibility. 
My choice to NOT have shot is mine. 
I am sure by list of symptoms I HAD this in March before tests were available to anyone but the very sickest people. My spouse had  also just returned from a trip to Milan at the time. 
I feel bad for those who lost people due to many issues that were listed as covid deaths..... we had a person in my state that was  shot in the head ....but listed as a covid death. 

Flu shots made my family sick every time but we are told "NO it does not happen" it must be a figment of our imagination...  no it was not. read fine print on ALL vaccines there ARE risks. 
I personally know someone who missed their scheduled  covid test appointment but still got a letter/ email saying "you tested positive" this was NOT an urban legend. 
My hometown had very few cases but in what I can only guess was an effort to spread fear....... our governor said " hospital rates here have tripled "    In reality.... yes ....we had 7 people hospitalized then it jumped to 21, tripled......... in a population of over 500k ........ with many major hospitals.     Real numbers and  details matter....... 

If you live in area hard hit and if you have underlying conditions i understand people feeling anxious but I look at the big picture and more has made zero sense in this whole thing.    
I find it odd and a bit immature that people think they can limit access to care for those who will not just follow "you must have shot crowd".    I personally know 4 medical personnel that  became permanently  disabled after trying to lift/ or pick up an obese patient ...........yet no one runs around trying to limit care for the morbidly obese ........even if it would limit risk to medical personnel. 

Even the Apps to try to alert people if they were "in same line at a store" is what they say.... but  the reality is GPS is often NOT that specific. It may be in same store or simply the same strip mall..... when i use my GPS to drive somewhere it says i have arrived as i turn in the parking lot.....not when I am in the bakery with a person who broke the 6 ft rule.    yet thousands, if not millions of taxpayer dollars were paid to set up these flawed apps. that some people somehow think it makes them safe. 

I watched a couple with masks and latex gloves wiping down groceries before loading into their car...... after done dropping wipes/ gloves and masks in parking lot for store employees to have to pick up.      
I guess the "hero" front line worker thing has passed....... a feel good moment so people could for a short term appreciate grocery workers. 
A few cities here decided in fall of 2019 to do away with plastic grocery bags went to reusable or paying fee for paper bags now ........ all out the window ...plastic is back and the only option.... reason Covid.      
Dining in at a restaurant needs to be banned ............people should not have feared a  fellow patron over 6 feet away ......but the Server or Cook..... guess what those are the same folks touching takeout as well.   But the narrative is to instill fear of your fellow citizens .... but we can give a pass to restaurant workers for take out? 
This is creating such division ... it is sad


----------



## garyt1957

Jeni said:


> Dining in at a restaurant needs to be banned ............people should not have feared a  fellow patron over 6 feet away ......but the Server or Cook..... guess what those are the same folks touching takeout as well.   But the narrative is to instill fear of your fellow citizens .... but we can give a pass to restaurant workers for take out?
> This is creating such division ... it is sad


 The risk in a restaurant is not someone preparing your food it's in eating said food without a mask indoors in proximity to other people. 6 feet isn't foolproof. How long you're exposed is also a factor. 30 minutes or more in a restaurant exposed to a covid positive while not wearing a mask is very dangerous. The air just gets recirculated. 
   My sister was reasonably careful but she did dine in at restaurants a few times a week. Yep, she got covid and brought it over to all of us. No proof of where she got it, of course, but I have my suspicions.


----------



## Aneeda72

Denise1952 said:


> So anyone choosing against the vaccine has to be punished if they were wrong.  I don't go along with that.  That would pretty much apply to anyone who made a wrong choice and needed a hospital bed in your book.  Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with that.


You don't have to agree, we often disagree with each other’s opinion.  People are going to start being denied treatment in California.  Dollars to donuts it’s the older people who will die more.  My attitude applies to this one instance only, refusal to get a vaccine that may save not only the vaccinated persons life, but other people’s life as well.

I am diabetic.  If I choose to eat too much sugar, that choice effects only me.  If I choose not to get treatment for my diabetes, that choice effects only me.  If someone chooses to personally not take the risk of a vaccine that person endangers and may cause the death of several people.

Look at it this way.

Jesus Christ CHOSE to die on the cross for people who refused to acknowledge him as the son of God the Father.  Many men and woman join the military and, therefore, CHOOSE to die for their fellow country men.  Recently, on the news, a young boy CHOSE to save his sister from a fire.  I could go on.

It boils down to this, IMO.  Someone either chooses themself or chooses mankind.  If they choose themselves than they choose to move to the back of the line for treatment, IMO.  California is in a bad way, I grew up in California.

Despite several drug allergies, I choose to get the vaccine for myself, my family, my fellow countrymen, and the human race.  Everyone else can choose however they want.  Everyone has to live or die with their choices.  But when and if I am judged by the God of my choice, I will have not faltered, at least, in this matter.

I need no validation from anyone.


----------



## Aneeda72

garyt1957 said:


> The risk in a restaurant is not someone preparing your food it's in eating said food without a mask indoors in proximity to other people. 6 feet isn't foolproof. How long you're exposed is also a factor. 30 minutes or more in a restaurant exposed to a covid positive while not wearing a mask is very dangerous. The air just gets recirculated.
> My sister was reasonably careful but she did dine in at restaurants a few times a week. Yep, she got covid and brought it over to all of us. No proof of where she got it, of course, but I have my suspicions.


My son and his girlfriend also got COVID in a restaurant IMO.  He took off his mask to eat as there were not many people there.  It only takes one person.


----------



## Jeni

garyt1957 said:


> The risk in a restaurant is not someone preparing your food it's in eating said food without a mask indoors in proximity to other people. 6 feet isn't foolproof. How long you're exposed is also a factor. 30 minutes or more in a restaurant exposed to a covid positive while not wearing a mask is very dangerous. The air just gets recirculated.
> My sister was reasonably careful but she did dine in at restaurants a few times a week. Yep, she got covid and brought it over to all of us. No proof of where she got it, of course, but I have my suspicions.ften


Exactly my point many simply do NOT know where they were exposed they assume. 
I know several workers preparing food and behind the doors out of site of customers they may or may not wear a mask.   Think of any restaurant ......if customers are able to enter they can see the masks..........but behind closed doors are you sure?   Same goes for stores etc some work without until doors are open for customers.......  look around i see it often masks lowered below noses until some one approaches and people adjust mask...... touching the mask over and over.

It is hard to say without working on  building systems how often air may or may not be vented in any location or have change overs  (some restaurants due to cooking are replacing with air from outside etc).  People in any facilities management could assess a  system and give a person air turnovers per hour etc otherwise many are strictly guessing or assuming. 
There is a lot that  has made zero sense in reopening of restaurants people were expected ( at least in my area) to wear mask entering/ leaving and walking through a restaurant but could remove mask while sitting and eating seemed ridiculous that covid was more contagious if standing?    at what height does the risk increase?


----------



## MarciKS

it's not just the dining so close and it's not just the food prep. it's the whole shebang. you got a restaurant full of workers and the workers aren't masking and distancing in the kitchen. the cook gets covid and the next thing ya know the cashier/waitress gets exposed and she's up front with customers. then a customer gets exposed and takes it home to the family. the family goes to walmart and spreads it around to other shoppers and they take it home to family along with a cashier. it's a domino effect. every single person you are around is exposing everyone else just by being there and breathing. 
our staff is spreading it around and it didn't come from the food that was touched.

we started out with patients having covid. then the nursing staff began to get it. it gradually made it's way to the food service dept. it started in the kitchen. and now it's in the office. if you're not vigilant with your safety practices and you don't want to stay home you give that virus an opportunity each time you leave the house and come into contact with others. breathing the air where a 100 shoppers are is opportunity in my book.


----------



## Denise1952

Aneeda72 said:


> You don't have to agree, we often disagree with each other’s opinion.  People are going to start being denied treatment in California.  Dollars to donuts it’s the older people who will die more.  My attitude applies to this one instance only, refusal to get a vaccine that may save not only the vaccinated persons life, but other people’s life as well.
> 
> I am diabetic.  If I choose to eat too much sugar, that choice effects only me.  If I choose not to get treatment for my diabetes, that choice effects only me.  If someone chooses to personally not take the risk of a vaccine that person endangers and may cause the death of several people.
> 
> Look at it this way.
> 
> Jesus Christ CHOSE to die on the cross for people who refused to acknowledge him as the son of God the Father.  Many men and woman join the military and, therefore, CHOOSE to die for their fellow country men.  Recently, on the news, a young boy CHOSE to save his sister from a fire.  I could go on.
> 
> It boils down to this, IMO.  Someone either chooses themself or chooses mankind.  If they choose themselves than they choose to move to the back of the line for treatment, IMO.  California is in a bad way, I grew up in California.
> 
> Despite several drug allergies, I choose to get the vaccine for myself, my family, my fellow countrymen, and the human race.  Everyone else can choose however they want.  Everyone has to live or die with their choices.  But when and if I am judged by the God of my choice, I will have not faltered, at least, in this matter.
> 
> I need no validation from anyo
> 
> 
> Jeni said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that many want to reinforce their own decision.
> I look around and see so many medications that were not rushed in R&D and deemed safe.......... then in a years time after the flashy ads for the drugs ......NOW  ads have attorneys saying "call if you had this reaction or that reaction to get in on a class action lawsuit."....
> 
> I really think people need to make their own choices and respect other peoples choices......... clinical trials do not have every side effect possibility.
> My choice to NOT have shot is mine.
> I am sure by list of symptoms I HAD this in March before tests were available to anyone but the very sickest people. My spouse had  also just returned from a trip to Milan at the time.
> I feel bad for those who lost people due to many issues that were listed as covid deaths..... we had a person in my state that was  shot in the head ....but listed as a covid death.
> 
> Flu shots made my family sick every time but we are told "NO it does not happen" it must be a figment of our imagination...  no it was not. read fine print on ALL vaccines there ARE risks.
> I personally know someone who missed their scheduled  covid test appointment but still got a letter/ email saying "you tested positive" this was NOT an urban legend.
> My hometown had very few cases but in what I can only guess was an effort to spread fear....... our governor said " hospital rates here have tripled "    In reality.... yes ....we had 7 people hospitalized then it jumped to 21, tripled......... in a population of over 500k ........ with many major hospitals.     Real numbers and  details matter.......
> 
> If you live in area hard hit and if you have underlying conditions i understand people feeling anxious but I look at the big picture and more has made zero sense in this whole thing.
> I find it odd and a bit immature that people think they can limit access to care for those who will not just follow "you must have shot crowd".    I personally know 4 medical personnel that  became permanently  disabled after trying to lift/ or pick up an obese patient ...........yet no one runs around trying to limit care for the morbidly obese ........even if it would limit risk to medical personnel.
> 
> Even the Apps to try to alert people if they were "in same line at a store" is what they say.... but  the reality is GPS is often NOT that specific. It may be in same store or simply the same strip mall..... when i use my GPS to drive somewhere it says i have arrived as i turn in the parking lot.....not when I am in the bakery with a person who broke the 6 ft rule.    yet thousands, if not millions of taxpayer dollars were paid to set up these flawed apps. that some people somehow think it makes them safe.
> 
> I watched a couple with masks and latex gloves wiping down groceries before loading into their car...... after done dropping wipes/ gloves and masks in parking lot for store employees to have to pick up.
> I guess the "hero" front line worker thing has passed....... a feel good moment so people could for a short term appreciate grocery workers.
> A few cities here decided in fall of 2019 to do away with plastic grocery bags went to reusable or paying fee for paper bags now ........ all out the window ...plastic is back and the only option.... reason Covid.
> Dining in at a restaurant needs to be banned ............people should not have feared a  fellow patron over 6 feet away ......but the Server or Cook..... guess what those are the same folks touching takeout as well.   But the narrative is to instill fear of your fellow citizens .... but we can give a pass to restaurant workers for take out?
> This is creating such division ... it is sad
> 
> 
> 
> I read this lastnight Jeni and just want to thank you for sharing it, Denise
Click to expand...


----------



## Denise1952

Jeni said:


> I agree that many want to reinforce their own decision.
> I look around and see so many medications that were not rushed in R&D and deemed safe.......... then in a years time after the flashy ads for the drugs ......NOW  ads have attorneys saying "call if you had this reaction or that reaction to get in on a class action lawsuit."....
> 
> I really think people need to make their own choices and respect other peoples choices......... clinical trials do not have every side effect possibility.
> My choice to NOT have shot is mine.
> I am sure by list of symptoms I HAD this in March before tests were available to anyone but the very sickest people. My spouse had  also just returned from a trip to Milan at the time.
> I feel bad for those who lost people due to many issues that were listed as covid deaths..... we had a person in my state that was  shot in the head ....but listed as a covid death.
> 
> Flu shots made my family sick every time but we are told "NO it does not happen" it must be a figment of our imagination...  no it was not. read fine print on ALL vaccines there ARE risks.
> I personally know someone who missed their scheduled  covid test appointment but still got a letter/ email saying "you tested positive" this was NOT an urban legend.
> My hometown had very few cases but in what I can only guess was an effort to spread fear....... our governor said " hospital rates here have tripled "    In reality.... yes ....we had 7 people hospitalized then it jumped to 21, tripled......... in a population of over 500k ........ with many major hospitals.     Real numbers and  details matter.......
> 
> If you live in area hard hit and if you have underlying conditions i understand people feeling anxious but I look at the big picture and more has made zero sense in this whole thing.
> I find it odd and a bit immature that people think they can limit access to care for those who will not just follow "you must have shot crowd".    I personally know 4 medical personnel that  became permanently  disabled after trying to lift/ or pick up an obese patient ...........yet no one runs around trying to limit care for the morbidly obese ........even if it would limit risk to medical personnel.
> 
> Even the Apps to try to alert people if they were "in same line at a store" is what they say.... but  the reality is GPS is often NOT that specific. It may be in same store or simply the same strip mall..... when i use my GPS to drive somewhere it says i have arrived as i turn in the parking lot.....not when I am in the bakery with a person who broke the 6 ft rule.    yet thousands, if not millions of taxpayer dollars were paid to set up these flawed apps. that some people somehow think it makes them safe.
> 
> I watched a couple with masks and latex gloves wiping down groceries before loading into their car...... after done dropping wipes/ gloves and masks in parking lot for store employees to have to pick up.
> I guess the "hero" front line worker thing has passed....... a feel good moment so people could for a short term appreciate grocery workers.
> A few cities here decided in fall of 2019 to do away with plastic grocery bags went to reusable or paying fee for paper bags now ........ all out the window ...plastic is back and the only option.... reason Covid.
> Dining in at a restaurant needs to be banned ............people should not have feared a  fellow patron over 6 feet away ......but the Server or Cook..... guess what those are the same folks touching takeout as well.   But the narrative is to instill fear of your fellow citizens .... but we can give a pass to restaurant workers for take out?
> This is creating such division ... it is sad


Just want to thank you for sharing this Jeni, I really appreciated the read when I went to bed last night. Denise


----------



## Denise1952

Jeni said:


> Exactly my point many simply do NOT know where they were exposed they assume.
> I know several workers preparing food and behind the doors out of site of customers they may or may not wear a mask.   Think of any restaurant ......if customers are able to enter they can see the masks..........but behind closed doors are you sure?   Same goes for stores etc some work without until doors are open for customers.......  look around i see it often masks lowered below noses until some one approaches and people adjust mask...... touching the mask over and over.
> 
> It is hard to say without working on  building systems how often air may or may not be vented in any location or have change overs  (some restaurants due to cooking are replacing with air from outside etc).  People in any facilities management could assess a  system and give a person air turnovers per hour etc otherwise many are strictly guessing or assuming.
> There is a lot that  has made zero sense in reopening of restaurants people were expected ( at least in my area) to wear mask entering/ leaving and walking through a restaurant but could remove mask while sitting and eating seemed ridiculous that covid was more contagious if standing?    at what height does the risk increase?


This isn't the same as a restaurant, but strict guidelines were enforced at our Senior Center Kitchen.  But it was still closed down when Covid started.  Then they reopened it to serve "food to go" and also delivered food to our apartment dwellers here.  Rumor has it one of our tenants was infected and the kitchen was closed again.  Now it's open so I don't know what it going on and I don't eat there, or take in food.  I like to cook my own, and especially during Covid I've felt a bit safer doing that.  But I also don't see how anyone can be 100% positive on where they got the virus, unless maybe a total shut-in.

Contact-tracing isn't 100%, but at least a heads-up maybe.


----------



## Aneeda72

Denise1952 said:


> This isn't the same as a restaurant, but strict guidelines were enforced at our Senior Center Kitchen.  But it was still closed down when Covid started.  Then they reopened it to serve "food to go" and also delivered food to our apartment dwellers here.  Rumor has it one of our tenants was infected and the kitchen was closed again.  Now it's open so I don't know what it going on and I don't eat there, or take in food.  I like to cook my own, and especially during Covid I've felt a bit safer doing that.  But I also don't see how anyone can be 100% positive on where they got the virus, unless maybe a total shut-in.
> 
> Contact-tracing isn't 100%, but at least a heads-up maybe.


I don’t think it really matters where you get it.  It only matters that since you have it, don’t give it to anyone else.  My son and his girlfriend refuse to visit me now  since they in no way want to give me the virus.  I willing to take the risk of getting from their clothing etc., they are not.


----------



## Jeni

MarciKS said:


> *it's not just the dining so close and it's not just the food prep. it's the whole shebang. you got a restaurant full of workers and the workers aren't masking and distancing in the kitchen. the cook gets covid and the next thing ya know the cashier/waitress gets exposed and she's up front with customers. then a customer gets exposed and takes it home to the family. the family goes to walmart and spreads it around to other shoppers and they take it home to family along with a cashier. it's a domino effect. every single person you are around is exposing everyone else just by being there and breathing.
> our staff is spreading it around and it didn't come from the food that was touched.
> 
> we started out with patients having covid. then the nursing staff began to get it. it gradually made it's way to the food service dept. it started in the kitchen. and now it's in the office. if you're not vigilant with your safety practices and you don't want to stay home you give that virus an opportunity each time you leave the house and come into contact with others. breathing the air where a 100 shoppers are is opportunity in my book. *


Yes, there is a risk every time you go out.  Not only with this virus but other diseases  or even driving is a risk.
People should assess the risk and make choices................. but the current situation is bordering on others deciding they can over ride your decision by cancel culture.

If you chose to go out ...do so then...........  either stay away from others or let them know that you go out more often etc so they can decide if they want to be around you.
Many have best guesses as to where they might have encountered but do not have proof.  There  is  simply NO absolutes regardless of whatever media or narrative you follow.  People who seemed healthy become very ill and those with many obvious issues recover fairly quickly.    This is true with many illnesses.......

Why is there almost no FLU deaths people say because of masks and distancing .....perhaps......... but there is also a chance some are counted as Covid.  
States opened themselves up to questioning when many admitted the death or case counts most likely are NOT correct. some states have actually done the right thing and go back to correct some data....... With bad data anyone who tries to study what went wrong or could have been done are working with false numbers.


My questioning of items is simply being curious...

Told Asymptomatic people are the danger ............so look around places taking temperatures looking for a possible SYMPTOM........... to find an Asymptomatic person.
  The CDC lists different possible symptoms and the percentage of patients that seem to experience them..... i believe fever is only in 13% of cases.    The possibility of catching a person with temp screening is very low.......  we have screening for any employee coming on site no one has been detected by expensive hi-tech screening but we have had cases.

We were told hairstylists/ barbers  were dangerous even though state LICENSING for this occupation requires 1500-2500 hours ( varies by state)  on sanitation and health concerns  and possible disease or conditions that could spread......
but a teenager with a 15 minute food safety course/ card is handling food for takeout.....makes little sense.

Lectured regularly that I am somehow responsible for the health of others but..........
Can I go take junk food out of people's basket at a store ..... can I give random strangers diet advice or take a cigarette out someones mouth ..... NO...................... that would be uncalled for and perhaps considered fat shaming.

Have you ever seen a person or loved one  have a severe reaction to a vaccine ...... you know the ones mentioned in the fine print of the paper you sign to eliminate all liability to drug company..... perhaps some think those side effects / deaths were not real people but hypothetical ones............my example has a name.

Many Covid patients are given Vitamin D in treatment ..... they say the connection is not completely understood yet...... but I see no suggestions / recommendations to take a supplement (estimated over half are low in Vitamin D) .....................even if it saved 1 life or lessened the severity of case..... why not.................. isn't that the idea that every possible precaution should be taken......but crickets.......

2 studies in 2 different countries  have been done suggesting that blood type matters in being able to fight off  this virus ........ did you see any media to alert (even if it was a very small chance) to those whom have the specific type ............... Nope......

Obesity is a co- morbidity ............ when do we expect mandatory exercise to begin perhaps cities can sound an  alarm and we can all do PE again.........  why were all junk food conglomerates not shut down for the good of the Nation,.....

Does George Orwell ring a bell ........1984.


----------



## MarciKS

And now they're finding out you don't have to have a fever to have Covid. We've had several employees that have gotten it with no fever and hardly any symptoms.


----------



## win231

Jeni said:


> Yes, there is a risk every time you go out.  Not only with this virus but other diseases  or even driving is a risk.
> People should assess the risk and make choices................. but the current situation is bordering on others deciding they can over ride your decision by cancel culture.
> 
> If you chose to go out ...do so then...........  either stay away from others or let them know that you go out more often etc so they can decide if they want to be around you.
> Many have best guesses as to where they might have encountered but do not have proof.  There  is  simply NO absolutes regardless of whatever media or narrative you follow.  People who seemed healthy become very ill and those with many obvious issues recover fairly quickly.    This is true with many illnesses.......
> 
> Why is there almost no FLU deaths people say because of masks and distancing .....perhaps......... but there is also a chance some are counted as Covid.
> States opened themselves up to questioning when many admitted the death or case counts most likely are NOT correct. some states have actually done the right thing and go back to correct some data....... With bad data anyone who tries to study what went wrong or could have been done are working with false numbers.
> 
> 
> My questioning of items is simply being curious...
> 
> Told Asymptomatic people are the danger ............so look around places taking temperatures looking for a possible SYMPTOM........... to find an Asymptomatic person.
> The CDC lists different possible symptoms and the percentage of patients that seem to experience them..... i believe fever is only in 13% of cases.    The possibility of catching a person with temp screening is very low.......  we have screening for any employee coming on site no one has been detected by expensive hi-tech screening but we have had cases.
> 
> We were told hairstylists/ barbers  were dangerous even though state LICENSING for this occupation requires 1500-2500 hours ( varies by state)  on sanitation and health concerns  and possible disease or conditions that could spread......
> but a teenager with a 15 minute food safety course/ card is handling food for takeout.....makes little sense.
> 
> Lectured regularly that I am somehow responsible for the health of others but..........
> Can I go take junk food out of people's basket at a store ..... can I give random strangers diet advice or take a cigarette out someones mouth ..... NO...................... that would be uncalled for and perhaps considered fat shaming.
> 
> Have you ever seen a person or loved one  have a severe reaction to a vaccine ...... you know the ones mentioned in the fine print of the paper you sign to eliminate all liability to drug company..... perhaps some think those side effects / deaths were not real people but hypothetical ones............my example has a name.
> 
> Many Covid patients are given Vitamin D in treatment ..... they say the connection is not completely understood yet...... but I see no suggestions / recommendations to take a supplement (estimated over half are low in Vitamin D) .....................even if it saved 1 life or lessened the severity of case..... why not.................. isn't that the idea that every possible precaution should be taken......but crickets.......
> 
> 2 studies in 2 different countries  have been done suggesting that blood type matters in being able to fight off  this virus ........ did you see any media to alert (even if it was a very small chance) to those whom have the specific type ............... Nope......
> 
> Obesity is a co- morbidity ............ when do we expect mandatory exercise to begin perhaps cities can sound an  alarm and we can all do PE again.........  why were all junk food conglomerates not shut down for the good of the Nation,.....
> 
> Does George Orwell ring a bell ........1984.


^^^ Nice to read a common-sense post....for a change.  The "Blame Game" is alive & well.  Fear & ignorance abound these days.


----------



## Aneeda72

Jeni said:


> Yes, there is a risk every time you go out.  Not only with this virus but other diseases  or even driving is a risk.
> People should assess the risk and make choices................. but the current situation is bordering on others deciding they can over ride your decision by cancel culture.
> 
> If you chose to go out ...do so then...........  either stay away from others or let them know that you go out more often etc so they can decide if they want to be around you.
> Many have best guesses as to where they might have encountered but do not have proof.  There  is  simply NO absolutes regardless of whatever media or narrative you follow.  People who seemed healthy become very ill and those with many obvious issues recover fairly quickly.    This is true with many illnesses.......
> 
> Why is there almost no FLU deaths people say because of masks and distancing .....perhaps......... but there is also a chance some are counted as Covid.
> States opened themselves up to questioning when many admitted the death or case counts most likely are NOT correct. some states have actually done the right thing and go back to correct some data....... With bad data anyone who tries to study what went wrong or could have been done are working with false numbers.
> 
> 
> My questioning of items is simply being curious...
> 
> Told Asymptomatic people are the danger ............so look around places taking temperatures looking for a possible SYMPTOM........... to find an Asymptomatic person.
> The CDC lists different possible symptoms and the percentage of patients that seem to experience them..... i believe fever is only in 13% of cases.    The possibility of catching a person with temp screening is very low.......  we have screening for any employee coming on site no one has been detected by expensive hi-tech screening but we have had cases.
> 
> We were told hairstylists/ barbers  were dangerous even though state LICENSING for this occupation requires 1500-2500 hours ( varies by state)  on sanitation and health concerns  and possible disease or conditions that could spread......
> but a teenager with a 15 minute food safety course/ card is handling food for takeout.....makes little sense.
> 
> Lectured regularly that I am somehow responsible for the health of others but..........
> Can I go take junk food out of people's basket at a store ..... can I give random strangers diet advice or take a cigarette out someones mouth ..... NO...................... that would be uncalled for and perhaps considered fat shaming.
> 
> Have you ever seen a person or loved one  have a severe reaction to a vaccine ...... you know the ones mentioned in the fine print of the paper you sign to eliminate all liability to drug company..... perhaps some think those side effects / deaths were not real people but hypothetical ones............my example has a name.
> 
> Many Covid patients are given Vitamin D in treatment ..... they say the connection is not completely understood yet...... but I see no suggestions / recommendations to take a supplement (estimated over half are low in Vitamin D) .....................even if it saved 1 life or lessened the severity of case..... why not.................. isn't that the idea that every possible precaution should be taken......but crickets.......
> 
> 2 studies in 2 different countries  have been done suggesting that blood type matters in being able to fight off  this virus ........ did you see any media to alert (even if it was a very small chance) to those whom have the specific type ............... Nope......
> 
> Obesity is a co- morbidity ............ when do we expect mandatory exercise to begin perhaps cities can sound an  alarm and we can all do PE again.........  why were all junk food conglomerates not shut down for the good of the Nation,.....
> 
> Does George Orwell ring a bell ........1984.


It seems to me that you complain about being lectured but have no problem lecturing.  . No offense meant as you do raise some good points.  I don’t care if some one wears a mask or not.  I don’t care if someone gets vaccinated or not.  (Although I think everyone should wear a mask and should get vaccinated)

I do care that my son thought eating out was important enough to get the virus over.  . But even adult children can be incredibly stupid and he was.  I am so glad he survived.  He has learned his lesson and now is very careful.

 I plan to start my puppy in training classes.  I will wear a mask, goggles, and social distance.  I prefer not to get the virus.  I am overweight, I exercise , I am losing weight, and I already take daily prednisone and vitamin D long before the virus issue.


----------



## Chrise

*Tired of the back and forth, people trying to change a personal choice. Dying can be everywhere no matter what we do, So forget the scary outcomes...*


----------



## Denise1952

Chrise said:


> *Tired of the back and forth, people trying to change a personal choice. Dying can be everywhere no matter what we do, So forget the scary outcomes...*


Knowing side-effects (what the OP is about) is most important to me when choosing to take a vaccine, or a drug so the topic was a good one for me.  It was when we let it turn into a "I know better than you" is when it soured.  Too bad we can't have a genuine discussion without the egos.  I know, I'm a dreamer


----------



## MarciKS

Chrise said:


> *Tired of the back and forth, people trying to change a personal choice. Dying can be everywhere no matter what we do, So forget the scary outcomes...*


Who is trying to change a personal choice?


----------



## Sassycakes

I hope the vaccine becomes available where I live soon. I have a nephew in Georgia who got the covid and it did damage to his lungs. He needed a double lung transplant. He then developed pnuemonia and had to be put on a ventilator. He is still in the hospital. My daughter, her husband, and my granddaughter also had the covid, but thankfully they are ok. I feel that if I get the vaccine hopefully there won't be any serious side effects and then hopefully, I won't be able to spread the covid to anyone else. So maybe getting the vaccine not only helps the person getting it, but helps other people they come in contact with.


----------



## Treacle

Not sure if I am right here but I think the Pfizer vaccine prevents the vaccinated person from getting it but they still can transmit it ????
Asymptomatic individuals are still able to transmit the virus even though they do not have symptoms.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/once-you-get-the-covid-19-vaccine-can-you-still-infect-others/


Sassycakes said:


> I hope the vaccine becomes available where I live soon. I have a nephew in Georgia who got the covid and it did damage to his lungs. He needed a double lung transplant. He then developed pnuemonia and had to be put on a ventilator. He is still in the hospital. My daughter, her husband, and my granddaughter also had the covid, but thankfully they are ok. I feel that if I get the vaccine hopefully there won't be any serious side effects and then hopefully, I won't be able to spread the covid to anyone else. So maybe getting the vaccine not only helps the person getting it, but helps other people they come in contact with.


Sincerely hope all will be well in your family @Sassycakes


----------



## Denise1952

Sassycakes said:


> I hope the vaccine becomes available where I live soon. I have a nephew in Georgia who got the covid and it did damage to his lungs. He needed a double lung transplant. He then developed pnuemonia and had to be put on a ventilator. He is still in the hospital. My daughter, her husband, and my granddaughter also had the covid, but thankfully they are ok. I feel that if I get the vaccine hopefully there won't be any serious side effects and then hopefully, I won't be able to spread the covid to anyone else. So maybe getting the vaccine not only helps the person getting it, but helps other people they come in contact with.


so sorry for so many loved ones being affected Sassy, hoping for the best for everyone


----------



## Chrise

Denise1952 said:


> Knowing side-effects (what the OP is about) is most important to me when choosing to take a vaccine, or a drug so the topic was a good one for me.  It was when we let it turn into a "I know better than you" is when it soured.  Too bad we can't have a genuine discussion without the egos.  I know, I'm a dreamer


*Everyone is different, No one will have the same outcome or effect...*


----------



## Butterfly

win231 said:


> Uh, well, OK.  Then it would also be fair to refuse medical treatment to anyone who took the vaccine & got sick from it.
> Or who took the vaccine & got Covid, anyway, like that nurse.



You can't get covid from the vaccine, if that's what you mean.  There is no covid virus in the vaccine, live or dead.  If you mean they got the first dose and still got covid, the first dose isn't enough.  You need two.  I don't think anybody, except those in t he trials, have gotten both shots yet.


----------



## win231

Butterfly said:


> You can't get covid from the vaccine, if that's what you mean.  There is no covid virus in the vaccine, live or dead.


No, that's not what I meant - or said.


----------



## Ronni

win231 said:


> Many people who try to convince others to get a vaccine are seeking confidence in their decision to get it - Confidence in numbers.
> And if people who choose the vaccine had confidence in it, it wouldn't matter to them if others didn't choose to get it, since they would be protected.


That’s not the only reason, you know. Some folks, those who aren’t completely self-focused, choose to get the vaccine not only to protect themselves, but to protect others around them. And in some cases, the protection of others is even more important to them than their own protection.

 It sounds like you don’t know anyone like this. I do, so I know this is true. And extrapolating from the folks I DO know, it’s not an impossible leap to believe that there are others who feel similarly.


----------



## win231

Ronni said:


> That’s not the only reason, you know. Some folks, those who aren’t completely self-focused, choose to get the vaccine not only to protect themselves, but to protect others around them. And in some cases, the protection of others is even more important to them than their own protection.
> 
> It sounds like you don’t know anyone like this. I do, so I know this is true. And extrapolating from the folks I DO know, it’s not an impossible leap to believe that there are others who feel similarly.


That sounds nice, warm & fuzzy and that mindset was used to sell flu shots as well.  But it doesn't hold water because, if the vaccine worked, others around them wouldn't need protection, since they would already be protected by their own vaccine.


----------



## StarSong

Ronni said:


> That’s not the only reason, you know. Some folks, those who aren’t completely self-focused, choose to get the vaccine not only to protect themselves, but to protect others around them. And in some cases, the protection of others is even more important to them than their own protection.
> 
> It sounds like you don’t know anyone like this. I do, so I know this is true. And extrapolating from the folks I DO know, it’s not an impossible leap to believe that there are others who feel similarly.


I have friends and relatives who cannot get vaccinated, period.  Their immune systems have been compromised by cancer treatments or medications, transplant anti-rejection drugs, auto-immune diseases and more.  

You're absolutely correct, @Ronni, there are many reasons to get vaccinated besides one's own protection.


----------



## MarciKS

win231 said:


> That sounds nice, warm & fuzzy and that mindset was used to sell flu shots as well.  But it doesn't hold water because, if the vaccine worked, others around them wouldn't need protection, since they would already be protected by their own vaccine.


Win I know you're not a stupid man so I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand. The vaccine is to help YOU fight off the virus. It's not a friends and family shot. If I get it I'm protected. If I get it and you don't...you still are at risk. This isn't rocket science. Sometimes I think you post this stuff just to get a rise out of people. Hope you're having a good time. Trust me it's not really helping your cause.


----------



## win231

MarciKS said:


> Win I know you're not a stupid man so I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand. The vaccine is to help YOU fight off the virus. It's not a friends and family shot. If I get it I'm protected. If I get it and you don't...you still are at risk. This isn't rocket science. Sometimes I think you post this stuff just to get a rise out of people. Hope you're having a good time. Trust me it's not really helping your cause.


1.  You are obviously confused.  My response had nothing to do with protecting _*me*_ from the virus.  My response to Ronni referred to *HER *statement about getting the vaccine to protect *OTHERS* from the virus.  I suggest you re-read post #86. & (this time) pay attention to what you read.

2.  If you feel the vaccine protects you, that's fine; get it.  If I don't feel the vaccine protects me, or I don't think it's worth the risk, I won't get it.  If you think that makes me "at risk," that's fine with me; I respect your opinion, unlike you, who obviously have trouble respecting anyone who disagrees with you.
And, if you "Get a Rise" out of my opinion, that's your problem.  Get some help.


----------



## MarciKS

I have never once seen you respect my opinion. I'm gonna need a link for that.


----------



## Ronni

So @win231 clearly you understand that if you get the vaccine, it protects you, and if I get the vaccine it protects me.

Why then are you unable or unwilling to extrapolate from that and agree that your choice to get the vaccine, should you make it, ALSO protects me, and my choice also protects you?


----------



## win231

Another take on "Civic Duty."
It could be said that it is everyone's civic duty to have frequent chest x-rays & TB skin tests to look for TB.  TB is contagious & airborne & it's everyone's civic duty to make sure they don't have it to protect others.
I don't consider _unnecessary _chest X-Rays or TB tests a good idea, either, so I don't get those.  If that makes me "selfish" in the eyes of a fool, that's fine with me.  Sticks & Stones...


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> That sounds nice, warm & fuzzy and that mindset was used to sell flu shots as well.  But it doesn't hold water because, if the vaccine worked, others around them wouldn't need protection, since they would already be protected by their own vaccine.


Huh?

You know some great grandparents and grandparents actually get the whooping cough vaccine and the shingles vaccine so the children don’t get whopping cough or chicken pox’s from them.  Imagine that people, protecting people.  WOW, a process you are obviously unfamiliar with


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Another take on "Civic Duty."
> It could be said that it is everyone's civic duty to have frequent chest x-rays & TB skin tests to look for TB.  TB is contagious & airborne & it's everyone's civic duty to make sure they don't have it to protect others.
> I don't consider _unnecessary _chest X-Rays or TB tests a good idea, either, so I don't get those.  If that makes me "selfish" in the eyes of a fool, that's fine with me.  Sticks & Stones...


Food workers, hospital workers, and others are required to get TB tests.  So @win231 let the rest of us protect those who are ME, ME, ME, people.  Why not?, most of us have a social conscious and have been doing this for years. 

“If that makes me “selfish” . . . . “That’s fine with me”. I agree with you, it makes you selfish.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> Food workers, hospital workers, and others are required to get TB tests.  So @win231 let the rest of us protect those who are ME, ME, ME, people.  Why not?, most of us have a social conscious and have been doing this for years.
> 
> “If that makes me “selfish” . . . . “That’s fine with me”. I agree with you, it makes you selfish.


Food workers required to get TB tests?  I don't know where you live, but not here.
If you connect taking drugs, tests & vaccines with "having a social conscience," that's your mindset & if it makes you feel good about yourself or warm & fuzzy, that's fine.  It's not mine.  I prefer to think things through before making decisions that involve my health.
And anyone who thinks I'm a raging epidemic because I don't get TB tests or chest X-rays is free to stay away from me.  Or stay home.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Food workers required to get TB tests?  I don't know where you live, but not here.
> If you connect taking drugs, tests & vaccines with "having a social conscience," that's your mindset & if it makes you feel good about yourself or warm & fuzzy, that's fine.  It's not mine.  I prefer to think things through before making decisions that involve my health.
> And anyone who thinks I'm a raging epidemic because I don't get TB tests or chest X-rays is free to stay away from me.  Or stay home.


Check with the health department, you are wrong.


----------



## Aneeda72

Aneeda72 said:


> Check with the health department, you are wrong.


You sound angry at me, @win231, I am just agreeing with you and what you said.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> You sound angry at me, @win231, I am just agreeing with you and what you said.


Misinterpretation on your part.


----------



## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Another take on "Civic Duty."
> It could be said that it is everyone's civic duty to have frequent chest x-rays & TB skin tests to look for TB.  TB is contagious & airborne & it's everyone's civic duty to make sure they don't have it to protect others.
> I don't consider _unnecessary _chest X-Rays or TB tests a good idea, either, so I don't get those.  If that makes me "selfish" in the eyes of a fool, that's fine with me.  Sticks & Stones...


  Interesting fact, well known by members of mental health professions, and all good debaters, lol:  those who resort to calling others  who disagree with them names, ie “a fool,” and replace cogent argument with snark and misdirection, are almost always more interested in spewing

anger and ridicule than anything else. As for suggesting that others should get help if they are affected by your comments, my, the disconnect is stunning. It is you who sneer at anyone who does not follow your belief system, no matter how politely they make their case. Would you like a reference re a good therapist?


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> Check with the health department, you are wrong.


You are confusing a _"Suggestion" _with a _"Requirement."
"The Department of Health Services, Public Health Programs and Services, offers tuberculosis testing and treatment to all persons residing in Los Angeles County at a low cost or for free. Public health officials ask that food establishment owners or operators have their employees tested for TB since the disease is curable with proper treatment."_

If it was required, it would not say "Public Health officials *ask*."  It would say "It is *required*."  Big difference.

Several years ago, my girlfriend's 11 year old son wanted to move here.  They are from China.
When he started 7th grade, school administrators told her a TB test was required.  He didn't want it.  I checked & found that it was not a requirement.  When the school people again insisted it was, I west to Olive View Medical Center & spoke to an RN who told me it was not a requirement & she printed the section of the law & gave it to me.  When my girlfriend showed it to the school principal, he again said it was required.  But after she asked if they were willing to go to court over it, he quickly changed his mind & her son was admitted.

If you let people walk all over you, you can't complain about shoe prints on your clothes.


----------



## win231

Shalimar said:


> Interesting fact, well known by members of mental health professions, and all good debaters, lol:  those who resort to calling others  who disagree with them names, ie “a fool,” and replace cogent argument with snark and misdirection, are almost always more interested in spewing
> 
> anger and ridicule than anything else. As for suggesting that others should get help if they are affected by your comments, my, the disconnect is stunning. It is you who sneer at anyone who does not follow your belief system, no matter how politely they make their case. Would you like a reference to a good therapist?


Well, what is your hourly rate?

Why is it OK (in your view) to call me _"selfish"_ if I don't want a drug, medical test or vaccine, but it's not OK for me to respond with an equal insult?
Who is the one who sneers at anyone who does not follow _YOUR_ belief system?
And, if you think calling me selfish is "Politely making their case," you lack command of the English language.  There are internet courses that can help you with that.  And they're free.


----------



## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> You sound angry at me, @win231, I am just agreeing with you and what you said.


Well, somebody is confused.  Usually when someone says "You are wrong," they're not agreeing.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Well, what is your hourly rate?
> 
> Why is it OK (in your view) to call me _"selfish"_ if I don't want a drug, medical test or vaccine, but it's not OK for me to respond with an equal insult?
> Who is the one who sneers at anyone who does not follow _YOUR_ belief system?
> And, if you think calling me selfish is "Politely making their case," you lack command of the English language.  There are internet courses that can help you with that.  And they're free.


I didn’t call you selfish, you called yourself selfish and I agreed with you.


----------



## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> You are confusing a _"Suggestion" _with a _"Requirement."
> "The Department of Health Services, Public Health Programs and Services, offers tuberculosis testing and treatment to all persons residing in Los Angeles County at a low cost or for free. Public health officials ask that food establishment owners or operators have their employees tested for TB since the disease is curable with proper treatment."_
> 
> If it was required, it would not say "Public Health officials *ask*."  It would say "It is *required*."  Big difference.
> 
> Several years ago, my girlfriend's 11 year old son wanted to move here.  They are from China.
> When he started 7th grade, school administrators told her a TB test was required.  He didn't want it.  I checked & found that it was not a requirement.  When the school people again insisted it was, I west to Olive View Medical Center & spoke to an RN who told me it was not a requirement & she printed the section of the law & gave it to me.  When my girlfriend showed it to the school principal, he again said it was required.  But after she asked if they were willing to go to court over it, he quickly changed his mind & her son was admitted.
> 
> If you let people walk all over you, you can't complain about shoe prints on your clothes.


Well if people are going to walk all over me the least they could do is take off their shoes, then it becomes a back massage, back massages are very nice.  . You are confused, it’s NOT ABOUT YOU, it’s about everyone else.


----------



## Jeni

win231 said:


> You are confusing a _"Suggestion" _with a _"Requirement."
> "The Department of Health Services, Public Health Programs and Services, offers tuberculosis testing and treatment to all persons residing in Los Angeles County at a low cost or for free. Public health officials ask that food establishment owners or operators have their employees tested for TB since the disease is curable with proper treatment."_
> 
> If it was required, it would not say "Public Health officials *ask*."  It would say "It is *required*."  Big difference.
> 
> Several years ago, my girlfriend's 11 year old son wanted to move here.  They are from China.
> When he started 7th grade, school administrators told her a TB test was required.  He didn't want it.  I checked & found that it was not a requirement.  When the school people again insisted it was, I west to Olive View Medical Center & spoke to an RN who told me it was not a requirement & she printed the section of the law & gave it to me.  When my girlfriend showed it to the school principal, he again said it was required.  But after she asked if they were willing to go to court over it, he quickly changed his mind & her son was admitted.
> 
> If you let people walk all over you, you can't complain about shoe prints on your clothes.



This is really coming to light in the current situation ..........I can not count how many confuse a supposedly Temp mandate as Law. It is not.  
Just like the difference between suggestions and required.   Often those like in your example in post have never been questioned or asked to defend their belief that suggestions or recommendations = required.......

I also think the notion that you must comply for civic duty etc is a guilt trip.  

Show me the government mandate to get others to stop drugs/ alcohol / smoking and or obesity.  
Nope we barely have those gross PSAs with the consequences of smoking etc. 
It is estimated those items take up a huge amount of healthcare but we give that a pass (PC  Culture)............ every addiction is no longer a personal choice but a disease that cannot be helped. 

But some seem to  expect everyone, regardless of their own decision, to take a vaccine rushed through production and approval ............that may not even be effective.
Government in many cases even passed on the enforcement (because it is not a law  ) ....................to private businesses ..........  told they must hold their customers accountable for masks/ distancing etc. or lose their license etc. That sounds like blackmail to me.


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## Shalimar

win231 said:


> Well, what is your hourly rate?
> 
> Why is it OK (in your view) to call me _"selfish"_ if I don't want a drug, medical test or vaccine, but it's not OK for me to respond with an equal insult?
> Who is the one who sneers at anyone who does not follow _YOUR_ belief system?
> And, if you think calling me selfish is "Politely making their case," you lack command of the English language.  There are internet courses that can help you with that.  And they're free.





win231 said:


> Oh my, you are funny. Lol. Now is my turn to snark, even a courteous Canuck grows weary of the tedious behaviour of one who continuously verbally degrades posters,  particularly women, and always projects their
> mistakes onto others, never ever wrong. I did not call you selfish, you called yourself that. There is another
> term amongst my colleagues used to describe such behaviour, “high chair tyrant.” Now, I shall leave you alone to fling sand about in your sandbox as you see fit.


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## Aneeda72

Jeni said:


> This is really coming to light in the current situation ..........I can not count how many confuse a supposedly Temp mandate as Law. It is not.
> Just like the difference between suggestions and required.   Often those like in your example in post have never been questioned or asked to defend their belief that suggestions or recommendations = required.......
> 
> I also think the notion that you must comply for civic duty etc is a guilt trip.
> 
> Show me the government mandate to get others to stop drugs/ alcohol / smoking and or obesity.
> Nope we barely have those gross PSAs with the consequences of smoking etc.
> It is estimated those items take up a huge amount of healthcare but we give that a pass (PC  Culture)............ every addiction is no longer a personal choice but a disease that cannot be helped.
> 
> But some seem to  expect everyone, regardless of their own decision, to take a vaccine rushed through production and approval ............that may not even be effective.
> Government in many cases even passed on the enforcement (because it is not a law  ) ....................to private businesses ..........  told they must hold their customers accountable for masks/ distancing etc. or lose their license etc. That sounds like blackmail to me.


I never said it was anyones civic duty to take any vaccine.  Everyone can do what they want because they WILL do what they want anyway, in the USA.  It’s like any other vaccine, take it or don’t take it.   But there are consequences and I think there will be more and more consequences for not taking it.

Look at Los Angeles, look at California.  It is* about people dying.  *


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## win231

Aneeda72 said:


> I never said it was anyones civic duty to take any vaccine.  Everyone can do what they want because they WILL do what they want anyway, in the USA.  It’s like any other vaccine, take it or don’t take it.   But there are consequences and I think there will be more and more consequences for not taking it.
> 
> Look at Los Angeles, look at California.  It is* about people dying.  *


And you are buying into the notion that the vaccine will fix that.  Not everyone believes that & that doesn't make them selfish, even though it may undermine your confidence.


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## win231

Ooooh, I'm so impressed.


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## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> And you are buying into the notion that the vaccine will fix that.  Not everyone believes that & that doesn't make them selfish, even though it may undermine your confidence.


You are really hung up on the selfish thing, again *I did not call you selfish, *you called yourself selfish and I agreed with you.  I did not say the vaccine would fix anything, you are attempting to speak for me.  I am heart broken over what is happening in LA.  I grew up in Southern California.  I care about every life that is lost, every single one.

Personal attacks, from you or anyone against me, mean nothing to me, so you might as well stop or not.  I could not care less about your, or anyones, personal attacks.  My mother was a master at it, still is.  You are not even close to being a runner up.


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## Ronni

My son is a first responder in Los Angeles California. I am terrified for him, and his family....my DIL and 4 granddaughters.

I reached out to him tonight because
the news coming out of LA is really really dire.  He reassured me. I expected nothing less because it’s who he is.

I cried, but didn’t let him see that. If he can be strong and positive in the face of all he’s dealing with, then damn if I won’t be too!!

But guys, my fear for him gets overwhelming at times. It’s really effing hard.


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## Shalimar

Ronni, I can only imagine how frightened you must be. Sending love and support your way.


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## JustBonee

Jeni said:


> *Flu shots made my family sick every time but we are told "NO it does not happen" it must be a figment of our imagination...  no it was not. read fine print on ALL vaccines there ARE risks.*
> ............
> This is creating such division ... it is sad



I can so  relate to that statement  ... .   Only time in my life that I ever got sick with the flu was when I got the over 65 flu shot.   
Knocked me out for 5 weeks.   Never again


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## MarciKS

Ronni said:


> My son is a first responder in Los Angeles California. I am terrified for him, and his family....my DIL and 4 granddaughters.
> 
> I reached out to him tonight because
> the news coming out of LA is really really dire.  He reassured me. I expected nothing less because it’s who he is.
> 
> I cried, but didn’t let him see that. If he can be strong and positive in the face of all he’s dealing with, then damn if I won’t be too!!
> 
> But guys, my fear for him gets overwhelming at times. It’s really effing hard.


Being an essential worker right now is scary as hell.


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## Ronni

MarciKS said:


> Being an essential worker right now is scary as hell.


It’s wretched.  it’s no longer just being threatened with Covid. It’s now also having to make these heart wrenching life/death decisions.  I can’t even imagine!


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## win231

Bonnie said:


> I can so  relate to that statement  ... .   Only time in my life that I ever got sick with the flu was when I got the over 65 flu shot.
> Knocked me out for 5 weeks.   Never again


A friend who's 67 was advised by his doctor to get a flu shot due to his pre-existing medical issues.  A few hours after the shot, he was in the ER with serious breathing problems.  He was hospitalized for 13 days & came close to dying twice.  His doctor said, "No more flu shots for you."
Yeah....he could have said that before the shot.
Flu shots are usually suggested for people with "Pre-Existing Conditions" or people who are "Immune Compromised" by diabetes & other conditions.  I sometimes wonder if those are exactly people who should _not _get a flu shot - which taxes the immune system further.


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## MarciKS

Ronni said:


> It’s wretched.  it’s no longer just being threatened with Covid. It’s now also having to make these heart wrenching life/death decisions.  I can’t even imagine!


i don't have to make those kinds of decisions thank God. it's scary when everyone around you is getting covid. we have reached critical status with our staffing because so many are out with it. if things get much worse i don't know what they'll do. i imagine parts of our department will be shut down till we have the staff. i hope your son stays safe.


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## chic

win231 said:


> A friend who's 67 was advised by his doctor to get a flu shot due to his pre-existing medical issues.  A few hours after the shot, he was in the ER with serious breathing problems.  He was hospitalized for 13 days & came close to dying twice.  His doctor said, "No more flu shots for you."
> Yeah....he could have said that before the shot.
> Flu shots are usually suggested for people with "Pre-Existing Conditions" or people who are "Immune Compromised" by diabetes & other conditions.  I sometimes wonder if those are exactly people who should _not _get a flu shot - which taxes the immune system further.


I kind of agree with this. That's the group most likely to suffer complications. Maybe the young and healthy people could get the flu shot to protect others? Might be a better way to achieve a positive result for all?


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## Lewkat

Sassycakes said:


> I was wondering if there was a web site saying if you are allergic to something like penicillin or some other issue that would mean you shouldn't take the vaccine.


Our infectious disease doctor told me that only if one had gone into anaphylactic shock from an injected medication, then do not take this vaccine.


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## Lewkat

Our COVID new hub in my county here in NJ published what was in that vaccine.  It appears that other than a piece of the spike of the virus added, it is the same as what the flu shot is made up of essentially.


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## MarciKS

Even After Getting Vaccinated, You Could Still Infect Others | FiveThirtyEight


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## JustBonee

win231 said:


> A friend who's 67 was advised by his doctor to get a flu shot due to his pre-existing medical issues.  A few hours after the shot, he was in the ER with serious breathing problems.  He was hospitalized for 13 days & came close to dying twice.  His doctor said, "No more flu shots for you."
> Yeah....he could have said that before the shot.
> Flu shots are usually suggested for people with "Pre-Existing Conditions" or people who are "Immune Compromised" by diabetes & other conditions.  I sometimes wonder if those are exactly people who should _not _get a flu shot - which taxes the immune system further.



Yes,   I really feel that if  you are immune compromised,  putting a foreign substance  (flu or Covid shot)   in your body will only lead you quickly  to the ER  for a steroid shot to counteract the damage of the injection.  

That is how my body works,   and reacts.     Been there,  done that ...


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## Aneeda72

Bonnie said:


> Yes,   I really feel that if  you are immune compromised,  putting a foreign substance  (flu or Covid shot)   in your body will only lead you quickly  to the ER  for a steroid shot to counteract the damage of the injection.
> 
> That is how my body works,   and reacts.     Been there,  done that ...


How does it work, I wonder, for people like me who take steroids daily?


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## chic

Aneeda72 said:


> How does it work, I wonder, for people like me who take steroids daily?


Guessing here, but steroids are prescribed for inflammatory conditions that respond to nothing else or where the immune system is overworking and attacking itself. So I would say no way get the vaccine if you're on steroids. But don't listen to me. Ask your doctor if you have questions.


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## JustBonee

Aneeda72 said:


> How does it work, I wonder, for people like me who take steroids daily?


I really don't know.  
In the past I've had the allergy doctor on speed-dial,  but  not in recent years.


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## win231

chic said:


> Guessing here, but steroids are prescribed for inflammatory conditions that respond to nothing else or where the immune system is overworking and attacking itself. So I would say no way get the vaccine if you're on steroids. But don't listen to me. Ask your doctor if you have questions.


Well, "ask your doctor" may be the problem.  Very few doctors will advise against a vaccine or medication.


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## Aneeda72

win231 said:


> Well, "ask your doctor" may be the problem.  Very few doctors will advise against a vaccine or medication.


As you know, I have made the decision to get the virus, don’t need a doctors advice


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## MarciKS

Aneeda72 said:


> How does it work, I wonder, for people like me who take steroids daily?


The information I've been given at work is that if you're immunocompromised or on a daily steroid of at least 15 mg a day or if you've gone into actual anaphylactic shock from anything before they advise you to not get it.


----------



## StarSong

Lewkat said:


> Our COVID new hub in my county here in NJ published what was in that vaccine.  It appears that other than a piece of the spike of the virus added, it is the same as what the flu shot is made up of essentially.


Makes sense, doesn't it?  The "active ingredient" would be the bit that gives immunity to this virus, and the inert ingredients would be the bits that get it into one's body.


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## Lewkat

Antihistamines are given to counteract allergic reactions, not steroids,


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## Becky1951

Lewkat said:


> Antihistamines are given to counteract allergic reactions, not steroids,


----------



## Lewkat

Becky1951 said:


> View attachment 143621


Corticosteroids are used in combination with antihistamines usually found in nasal sprays.  Steroids alone are not the first choice for an allergy relief medication.  In the cases where anaphylaxis is involved many meds are used to reversed the situation at hand.  I've dealt with many in the years of my profession and even went through one incident that happened to me.


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## JustBonee

Lewkat said:


> Antihistamines are given to counteract allergic reactions, not steroids,



Only when it's mild  ..... steroid shots are  given when a severe reaction occurs,  when it affects breathing, etc.


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## MarciKS

Steroids are more for pain and breathing issues I think. I've never received them for allergies.


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## Aneeda72

I have Addisons disease, steroids keep me alive, but I only take 5mg a day.


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## MarciKS

Aneeda72 said:


> I have Addisons disease, steroids keep me alive, but I only take 5mg a day.


I would say talk to your dr if you decide you want it.


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## chic

Becky1951 said:


> View attachment 143621


Asthma is an autoimmune issue.


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## StarSong

chic said:


> Asthma is an autoimmune issue.


I never thought of it that way but you're absolutely right.


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## chic

StarSong said:


> I never thought of it that way but you're absolutely right.


I know many people who have it and it really is.


----------

