# Anti-vaxxers aren't just anti-vax; they're trying to prevent others from getting vaccinated



## Irwin

Demonstrators at a children's COVID-19 vaccine clinic in North Bay reportedly called parents 'murderers'
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/north-bay-childrens-vaccine-clinic-harassment-1.6266942

Anti-vaxxers forced a mobile COVID-19 vaccine site in Georgia to shut down after threatening health workers
https://www.businessinsider.com/ant...-down-vaccine-site-by-bullying-workers-2021-8

Massachusetts families claim anti-vaccine protesters harassed children outside middle school clinic
https://www.wcvb.com/article/gardner-massachusetts-anti-vaccine-protesters-harassment/38465847
Mass psychosis is getting worse!    The same thing is happening in Europe!


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## bowmore

Darwin is going to take care of some of them. The thing I resent is that these idiots are taking up valuable hospital resources when they come down with Covid.
To show how stupid some of these people are, there was an unvax couple that went to the hospital with Covid and refused treatment for it. They both died. Darwin??


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## Warrigal

These are the actions of social disrupters. It is antisocial and as such I have no support to offer them.

No-one is being held down and forcibly injected. We are being urged to vaccinate for excellent reasons but all of us can choose not to comply. However, every choice we make has its own consequences and we, as adults, must all consider them carefully. To make a choice, knowing all that it entails, and then throw a public tantrum because we don't like the consequences, is infantile behaviour. IMO, of course.


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## Irwin

bowmore said:


> Darwin is going to take care of some of them. The thing I resent is that these idiots are taking up valuable hospital resources when they come down with Covid.


They're like suicide bombers, willing to die for their cause and take down as many non-believers as they can. What gets me is these anti-vaxxers who play the victim, as if asking them to get vaccinated is oppression and abuse comparable to being in a Nazi death camp.


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## Becky1951

It's fine to protest peacefully. But what Irwin posted is isn't. 

That's extreme and those shouting at children or shouting to parents while children are present is unexcusable.


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## dseag2

Irwin said:


> Demonstrators at a children's COVID-19 vaccine clinic in North Bay reportedly called parents 'murderers'
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/north-bay-childrens-vaccine-clinic-harassment-1.6266942
> 
> Anti-vaxxers forced a mobile COVID-19 vaccine site in Georgia to shut down after threatening health workers
> https://www.businessinsider.com/ant...-down-vaccine-site-by-bullying-workers-2021-8
> 
> Massachusetts families claim anti-vaccine protesters harassed children outside middle school clinic
> https://www.wcvb.com/article/gardner-massachusetts-anti-vaccine-protesters-harassment/38465847
> Mass psychosis is getting worse!  View attachment 198271  The same thing is happening in Europe!


Disgraceful.


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## Warrigal

I hope this won't be considered offensive. It was found on a satirical site called the Shovel. I have removed the obscene words but I think the arguments are logically sound. It is written in response to people who compare requirements for vaccination with Nazi Germany. It is also written for an Australian readership. I won't be offended if it is torn to shreds on this forum.



> *‘6 Ways Vaccination Requirements Are Different From The Holocaust’: A Handy Guide For Anti-Vaxxers*
> 
> Some anti-vaxxers have been comparing the vaccination requirements in Australia, Canada and elsewhere to the Holocaust, claiming they are being persecuted, just as Jewish people were during WWII. One woman even dressed up her children wearing yellow Star of David patches.
> 
> We took their advice and ‘did our own research’ and found some surprising differences between the two events. We’ve summarised our findings in this handy guide for anti-vaxxers.
> 
> *1*. *People in the Holocaust were innocent victims, you’re just a selfish idiot. *It’s a subtle difference, but one that becomes clearer the more you look into this issue. On the one hand we have ordinary people targeted because of their religion or race, on the other, self-obsessed people  claiming they are oppressed because they can’t sit down for a coffee at their local café.
> 
> *2. In the Holocaust, Jewish people were murdered. In this pandemic, anti-vaxxers won’t be able to go to Kmart.* You may think the two things are comparable, but the difference is actually monumentally huge. A small, self-imposed inconvenience for you, versus a literal death-sentence for millions of people.
> 
> *3. Holocaust victims had no say in their fate. You can choose to do whatever you want. *As far as we could tell from our research, there wasn’t an opt-out form for the Holocaust. No-one responded to a knock on the door from Nazi soldiers by saying ‘I think I’ll sit this one out because Pete Evans says I shouldn’t trust the science’. But, as you keep telling us over and over and over again, you can do whatever you want.
> 
> *4. The Holocaust killed people, vaccinations save people.* At first glance, it might be hard to spot the difference here. But on closer inspection, you’ll notice that the two things are actually the EXACT OPPOSITE. They literally couldn’t be more different.
> 
> *5. Holocaust victims were forced into concentration camps. You’re being asked to voluntarily go to a pop-up clinic in a converted town hall.  *A non-negotiable journey to a death camp under armed guard, versus a short trip to your local community centre where you’ll get a free lollipop. We checked, and you may be surprised to learn that these things are not remotely similar.
> 
> *6. Jews in Nazi occupied Europe were forced to wear yellow stars; you’re playing dress-ups.* Cosplaying a prisoner of war might seem like a fun way to get more Instagram likes, but it’s actually grotesque.


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## dseag2

I think it is spot on!


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## Warrigal

Did you click the link to the woman dressing up her children with yellow Star of David patches? It reveals her as an 'influencer' with 89.6k followers on TikTok, 7.3k followers on Instagram and 19k followers on Facebook. She's got to be making money out of this.


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## Pookie

I think maybe getting the vaccine is a personal choice.

I chose vaccination, but a couple of my friends chose not to because of their health issues and they're apparently - let me repeat - apparently - safer without it. So they stay home mostly and when they do go out, they wear masks and stay away from people and get tested weekly.

Yet on the other paw, where I live, we have seen a number of vaccinated people come down with Covid and pass away from it.

This bug is so insipid, so unpredictable and so dangerous that it's really quite disturbing. I wear a good mask, practice social distancing, and try to stay as healthy as possible. I'd hate for someone to even catch a cold from me, you know? Someone could get a cold from me, and if they have underlying health issues, if they get accidentally exposed to Covid while fighting off a cold or flu, it could be very bad.

But getting in peoples' faces and becoming militant about it either way is uncalled for. 

I was recently promoted to supervisor at work, and I have told my team even if you have a slight cold - stay home!

Just my opinion. 

I hope all of us stay well.


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## win231

With ANY debate, there will always be idiots.
On _*both*_ sides of the issue.


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## Aunt Bea

I don't mind hearing logical arguments from either side, but the constant barrage of nonsense tends to become tedious and annoying.

My personal opinion is that life is a team sport and every now and then we each need to take one for the team.







Get vaccinated/boosted.


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## Shero

The anti vaxxers are so boring, they need a shot in the arm


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## Sunny

Same bunch that stand outside of abortion clinics and shout obscenities at the women going in?  This all has a familiar ring.


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## win231

Pookie said:


> I think maybe getting the vaccine is a personal choice.
> 
> I chose vaccination, but a couple of my friends chose not to because of their health issues and they're apparently - let me repeat - apparently - safer without it. So they stay home mostly and when they do go out, they wear masks and stay away from people and get tested weekly.
> 
> Yet on the other paw, where I live, we have seen a number of vaccinated people come down with Covid and pass away from it.
> 
> This bug is so insipid, so unpredictable and so dangerous that it's really quite disturbing. I wear a good mask, practice social distancing, and try to stay as healthy as possible. I'd hate for someone to even catch a cold from me, you know? Someone could get a cold from me, and if they have underlying health issues, if they get accidentally exposed to Covid while fighting off a cold or flu, it could be very bad.
> 
> But getting in peoples' faces and becoming militant about it either way is uncalled for.
> 
> I was recently promoted to supervisor at work, and I have told my team even if you have a slight cold - stay home!
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> I hope all of us stay well.


^^^^ Bingo.  But your logic is very unpopular with the sheep mentality crowd who want their decision validated by others who make the same decision they made.


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## AnnieA

I know some true anti-vaxxers --no vaccines at all-- through the years in connection with my nephew's vaccine injury.  Most of the people I know who fit the "anti-vaxx" label because of a vaccine injured child wouldn't demonstrate outside children's clinics where there is parental choice.  Most advocate vaccine 'choice' and understand how hard it is to weigh the dangers of disease vs permanent damage."

A thread title lead of "Some" might clarify that these demonstrators are extremists.


.


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## Geezerette

What I resent the most is that when the non vacc people become critically ill  with the virus  they are needlessly, selfishly taking hospital beds away from  EVERYBODY, vaxxed or not , who have other critical illnesses or physical injuries that need acute care.


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## Becky1951

Geezerette said:


> What I resent the most is that when the non vacc people become critically ill  with the virus  *they are needlessly, selfishly taking hospital beds away from  EVERYBODY,* vaxxed or not , who have other critical illnesses or physical injuries that need acute care.


It's not just the unvaccinated. 

This is just one state reporting, there's more.

"There have been 2,716 hospitalizations among *fully vaccinated *people in Massachusetts"

"The 2,716 total patients is a one-week increase of 273 fully vaxxed patients."

https://www-bostonherald-com.cdn.am...last-week-smashing-record-high-for-the-state/


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## Irwin

University of Florida researchers were ordered to destroy covid-19 data that didn't comport with the propaganda coming from the governor's office.

The report discusses several “challenges” faced by UF researchers who were working on COVID-19 with an unidentified state entity. It describes “external pressure to destroy” data as well as “barriers” to accessing, analyzing and publishing the numbers. Taken together, the report said, those problems “inhibited the ability of faculty to contribute scientific findings during a world-wide pandemic.”
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article256400321.html


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## win231

Geezerette said:


> What I resent the most is that when the non vacc people become critically ill  with the virus  they are needlessly, selfishly taking hospital beds away from  EVERYBODY, vaxxed or not , who have other critical illnesses or physical injuries that need acute care.


^^^^ An attempt to guilt people into getting vaccinated.  Same ploy previously used to guilt people into getting flu shots:
_"If you don't get a flu shot, you're making others sick."   _
It works - for gullible non thinkers.


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## win231

I just got off the phone with a friend whose husband was hospitalized for Covid.  He's around 74.
When he started feeling sick, he assumed it was just a bad cold because he was fully vaccinated for the flu and Covid.


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## Don M.

My wife and I got our Moderna booster shots this morning.  We hardly felt the "jab", and now, a few hours later, we are Not having any sore arms, etc.  The nurse administering the shots was very good.  Now, within a few days, we should be back up into the 95+ percentile of safety from this virus...just in time for getting together with the family for Christmas.


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## win231

AnnieA said:


> I know some true anti-vaxxers --no vaccines at all-- through the years in connection with my nephew's vaccine injury.  Most of the people I know who fit the "anti-vaxx" label because of a vaccine injured child wouldn't demonstrate outside children's clinics where there is parental choice.  Most advocate vaccine 'choice' and understand how hard it is to weigh the dangers of disease vs permanent damage."
> 
> A thread title lead of "Some" might clarify that these demonstrators are extremists.
> 
> 
> .


Exactly.  But that would spoil it for the_ "I'm better than you"_ crowd.
And it would deprive them of the only way they know to feel superior.


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## Don M.

Becky1951 said:


> It's not just the unvaccinated.
> 
> This is just one state reporting, there's more.
> 
> "There have been 2,716 hospitalizations among *fully vaccinated *people in Massachusetts"
> 
> "The 2,716 total patients is a one-week increase of 273 fully vaxxed patients."
> 
> https://www-bostonherald-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bostonherald.com/2021/12/07/massachusetts-coronavirus-breakthrough-cases-surge-11321-last-week-smashing-record-high-for-the-state/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16391553327256&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/12/07/massachusetts-coronavirus-breakthrough-cases-surge-11321-last-week-smashing-record-high-for-the-state/



The article you quote goes on to say that 1.8% of the cases in Massachusetts are among those who have been vaccinated.  That indicates that 98.2% of those who Have been vaccinated are not having any problems.  98.2% are pretty good odds, in my book.  It's doubtful that we will ever see 100% protection...on this, or Any disease.


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## Becky1951

Don M. said:


> The article you quote goes on to say that 1.8% of the cases in Massachusetts are among those who have been vaccinated.  That indicates that 98.2% of those who Have been vaccinated are not having any problems.  98.2% are pretty good odds, in my book.  It's doubtful that we will ever see 100% protection...on this, or Any disease.


Yes but why do people ignore the fact that the vaccinated also are being hospitalized and its not *all* the unvaccinated filling up hospitals causing other health conditions to have to wait?

Vaccinated or not, Covid is the cause.


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## Lakeland living

Interesting , now in Toronto Ontario, the higher numbers are   1453 new cases , out of those 613 were not vaccinated, 718 have 2 shots.  
1 shot 26 and unknown is 96. 
    Have not changed my mind , even when they change how they report the numbers.  I believe in making my own decisions.
 All  I say is stop and think...research then decide..


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## Irwin

The mortality rate for unvaccinated people who get infected is currently about 5%. For vaccinated, it's less than one percent. So if you do get covid-19, you're far more likely to die from it if you're not vaccinated than if you are, but there's still a pretty good chance you'll survive. That's due in part to doctors getting better at treating covid-19 patients.

Still, you could suffer a great deal if you're infected and hospitalized for covid-19, and you're far more likely to be hospitalized if you're not vaccinated.


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## John cycling




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## Don M.

Becky1951 said:


> Yes but why do people ignore the fact that the vaccinated also are being hospitalized and its not *all* the unvaccinated filling up hospitals causing other health conditions to have to wait?



I don't think that anyone is "ignoring" that 2% of the vaccinated are getting ill.  That still leaves 98% of the people who are clogging up the hospitals falling into the unvaccinated category.  2% vs. 98% seems pretty obvious to most people.  As the holidays, and people gathering together arrive, and another spike arrives, this disparity in numbers will become more obvious....hopefully, even to those who think this pandemic is a Hoax, or Conspiracy.


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## Sunny

Irwin said:


> The mortality rate for unvaccinated people who get infected is currently about 5%. For unvaccinated, it's less than one percent. So if you do get covid-19, you're far more likely to die from it if you're not vaccinated than if you are, but there's still a pretty good chance you'll survive. That's due in part to doctors getting better at treating covid-19 patients.
> 
> Still, you could suffer a great deal if you're infected and hospitalized for covid-19, and you're far more likely to be hospitalized if you're not vaccinated.


Irwin, I think you mean for vaccinated, it's less than one percent.  (Not *un*vaccinated.)


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## chic

John cycling said:


> View attachment 198394


Somehow, I relate to Bob.


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## Sunny

Chic, you are saying that you have special powers that enable you to kill vaccinated people, while preserving your own life?  Really? That's what you "relate to?"

I guess it's finally happened. The loony tunes contingent has taken over this forum. (I know you're going to say you were "just kidding," and your buddy John Cycling was just kidding, but there really is nothing funny about this subject or your attitude about it.)

Anyone who has a ha-ha-ha attitude about this disease is sick. And the longer you go on laughing, and trying to convince as many people as possible to be as terrified of a harmless vaccine as you are, the more people will become very ill and die, and the longer it will take for the world to return to normal.  Thanks a lot.


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## chic

Sunny said:


> Chic, you are saying that you have special powers that enable you to kill vaccinated people, while preserving your own life?  Really? That's what you "relate to?"
> 
> I guess it's finally happened. The loony tunes contingent has taken over this forum. (I know you're going to say you were "just kidding," and your buddy John Cycling was just kidding, but there really is nothing funny about this subject or your attitude about it.)
> 
> Anyone who has a ha-ha-ha attitude about this disease is sick. And the longer you go on laughing, and trying to convince as many people as possible to be as terrified of a harmless vaccine as you are, the more people will become very ill and die, and the longer it will take for the world to return to normal.  Thanks a lot.


Of course I have no supernatural powers protecting me. If my picture was in poor taste, I apologize. 
But it is equally sick to see vaccinated people who want to lock the unvaccinated away into detainment centers or health camps for life, or worse, to forcibly vaccinate people which is on the table in Germany. So the sword cuts both ways.


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## Pookie

Geezerette said:


> What I resent the most is that when the non vacc people become critically ill  with the virus  they are needlessly, selfishly taking hospital beds away from  EVERYBODY, vaxxed or not , who have other critical illnesses or physical injuries that need acute care.



Needlessly, selfishly? Some can't have the vaccine. Here, vaccinated folks are very sick with it. I have 3 friends who are vaxxed, have the booster, and are sick with it in the hospital and one isn't expected to live.

Please understand this is a bug that is quite different. Thanks. Maybe some are not needlessly or selfishly taking up beds.


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## Mrs. Robinson

Pookie said:


> I was recently promoted to supervisor at work, and I have told my team even if you have a slight cold - stay home!


I think that is a good stance to take.

Last Saturday I felt I was coming down with a cold. I have not had a full blown cold in 52 years. Every few years I will feel one coming on,but by the next day it is gone. So I assumed that is what was happening last Saturday. By Sunday I felt fine,but I did have a cough. Coughed,maybe,six times a day. Still felt fine. Then on Tuesday night I was cooking garlic and onions and realized I could not smell them at all. Couldn`t taste dinner,so I knew.

Went to the clinic on Thursday and got tested.Results were emailed to me last night-Positive. So just having a slight cold can actually be Covid.


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## Irwin

In a related story,

*Marcus Lamb, head of televangelist network that spreads COVID misinformation, dies of COVID-19*​​Daystar's website offers a large amount of misinformation on COVID-19, calling the vaccines a "hidden crisis" and hinting at a "dangerous truth" about their efficacy and purpose. The network has hosted a series of videos and podcasts, including by Joni, speaking out against flu vaccines, HPV vaccines and others, and featured interviews with anti-vaccine advocates including Robert Kennedy Jr. and Simone Gold, who's a member of the controversial group America's Frontline Doctors.​​The Lambs have also touted the use of unapproved treatments for COVID-19, including ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and National Institutes of Health have repeatedly warned against using these medications to treat COVID-19.​https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marcus-lamb-covid-death-vaccine-misinformation/​
I don't even feel schadenfreude any more when I see stories like this. It's just sad.


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## Ladybj

win231 said:


> ^^^^ An attempt to guilt people into getting vaccinated.  Same ploy previously used to guilt people into getting flu shots:
> _"If you don't get a flu shot, you're making others sick."   _
> It works - for gullible non thinkers.


I agree... my hubby gets the flu vaccine every year and I don't.  I have not had a flu vaccine in over 30 years and do not plan on getting one due to I got VERY sick when I got the flu vaccine.  One good thing I can say about the flu vaccine is that you know they are injecting you with the flu virus....well some know and others may not be aware.  However, as I always say, we do what is best for us and our health.


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## Ladybj

Mrs. Robinson said:


> I think that is a good stance to take.
> 
> Last Saturday I felt I was coming down with a cold. I have not had a full blown cold in 52 years. Every few years I will feel one coming on,but by the next day it is gone. So I assumed that is what was happening last Saturday. By Sunday I felt fine,but I did have a cough. Coughed,maybe,six times a day. Still felt fine. Then on Tuesday night I was cooking garlic and onions and realized I could not smell them at all. Couldn`t taste dinner,so I knew.
> 
> Went to the clinic on Thursday and got tested.Results were emailed to me last night-Positive. So just having a slight cold can actually be Covid.


That is very interesting.  So, Covid has taken over a common cold??  My niece had a cold for a few days and recovered just fine.  She got over her cold and was feeling fine.  Her job recommended she take a Covid test - she took the test..came out positive  she was shocked because she was feeling fine.. no symptoms at all.  However, she followed protocol and stayed home for a few days.  She is in the medical field and knew she did not have Covid.  But I guess that is the way the ball is bouncing.


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## dseag2

The differences between the common cold and Covid.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...ld-flu-and-allergies-differences/art-20503981


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## Ladybj

dseag2 said:


> The differences between the common cold and Covid.
> 
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...ld-flu-and-allergies-differences/art-20503981


I have researched the difference which is not a lot of difference.  I have had a few colds in the past.  Loss of taste, smell.. no appetite, etc..  Some people have it worst than others. My sister had a very bad cold a few years ago.. if covid testing was out, they probably would have dx her with covid.  She was sick for about a week..she called and asked me for my Hot Toddy recipe - she fixed it and was feeling fine in a few days. Also Zinc is a well hidden secret when coming down with a cold.  I do not open links.. not unless its something that help feed my internal spirit or humorous.


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## dseag2

No worries. The link actually illustrates that there is not much difference.  I also take Zinc when I have a cold.  "Cold-Eze" lozenges.  And yes, they do work.  I think the Omicron virus is way overhyped, which was my point.

But it is the Delta virus that has many hospitalized and dying.


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## Pepper

Ladybj said:


> she called and asked me for* my Hot Toddy recipe *- she fixed it and was feeling fine in a few days.


I haven't had one in a million years!  Would you share your recipe?


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## JimBob1952

It would be interesting to know what sort of overall vaccination rate we would have in absence of government mandates.  I really wanted to get the vaccine as soon as it was available and did so at the earliest opportunity -- the booster as well.    Governments or employers telling me to do so wouldn't have made any difference.  

I tend to think the mandates are counter productive.  They stiffen the spines of people who don't like to be told what to do.  I think the government should spend more time on public education, which can be very effective (look at antismoking propaganda over the years).  

However, as I cheerfully admit at my advanced age, I am often wrong but never in doubt.


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## JimBob1952

One other thing that really irritates me:  I got the vaccine and booster in part because I hate wearing a mask. Now there are still lots of places I can't go without wearing a mask.  I feel like I'm Charlie Brown and the NIH is Lucy.

BTW, I went to a Christmas party last night and no one was wearing a mask.  Many of the people there were teachers who have to wear a mask all day with their children.  It seems really stupid to wear a mask with one group and not with another.   As somebody else said, why do New Yorkers wear masks on the street while, 150 miles away, 100,000 people attend a Penn State football game totally mask-free.


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## win231

JimBob1952 said:


> One other thing that really irritates me:  I got the vaccine and booster in part because I hate wearing a mask. Now there are still lots of places I can't go without wearing a mask.  I feel like I'm Charlie Brown and the NIH is Lucy.
> 
> BTW, I went to a Christmas party last night and no one was wearing a mask.  Many of the people there were teachers who have to wear a mask all day with their children.  It seems really stupid to wear a mask with one group and not with another.   As somebody else said, why do New Yorkers wear masks on the street while, 150 miles away, 100,000 people attend a Penn State football game totally mask-free.


One of many things that don't add up.  Things that don't make sense aren't true.
That's why not everyone is falling for it.


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## chic

JimBob1952 said:


> One other thing that really irritates me:  I got the vaccine and booster in part because I hate wearing a mask. Now there are still lots of places I can't go without wearing a mask.  I feel like I'm Charlie Brown and the NIH is Lucy.
> 
> BTW, I went to a Christmas party last night and no one was wearing a mask.  Many of the people there were teachers who have to wear a mask all day with their children.  It seems really stupid to wear a mask with one group and not with another.   As somebody else said, why do New Yorkers wear masks on the street while, 150 miles away, 100,000 people attend a Penn State football game totally mask-free.


People have stopped wearing masks indoors in my community pretty much now. So it's up to the individual whether or not to mask up as it should be.


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## Ebony

I'm double jabbed with Pfizer and patiently waiting for my booster, I've never stopped wearing a face mask, I wear sanitised disposable gloves too. An anti-vaxxer once shouted at me to 'take your mask off it's all a hoax', try telling that to the 3 people I know that died of covid recently.


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## Sunny

As this disease is still pretty new, no one has all the answers. And certainly no government does. So dealing with the pandemic varies all over the place, largely depending on who is in charge.

In my state, Maryland, it actually varies from county to county. It's the county executives who make the rules about masking, vaccines, etc. My county is very strict, and requires masks indoors when the counties next door have no such requirement. (We also have a relatively low Covid death rate, which does not surprise me.)

But even here, the rules about masks have changed, following the disease statistics. This is all still somewhat experimental, and we are constantly learning. Which is the way it should be.


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## win231

Ebony said:


> I'm double jabbed with Pfizer and patiently waiting for my booster, I've never stopped wearing a face mask, I wear sanitised disposable gloves too. An anti-vaxxer once shouted at me to 'take your mask off it's all a hoax', try telling that to the 3 people I know that died of covid recently.


Of course everyone should mind their own business.  But it's not a perfect world.
The controversy involves causes of death listed as Covid that had nothing to do with Covid.  And exaggerated mortality & infection rates.
Covid is not a "Hoax" but we're not being told the truth.


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## JimBob1952

Sunny said:


> As this disease is still pretty new, no one has all the answers. And certainly no government does. So dealing with the pandemic varies all over the place, largely depending on who is in charge.
> 
> In my state, Maryland, it actually varies from county to county. It's the county executives who make the rules about masking, vaccines, etc. My county is very strict, and requires masks indoors when the counties next door have no such requirement. (We also have a relatively low Covid death rate, which does not surprise me.)
> 
> But even here, the rules about masks have changed, following the disease statistics. This is all still somewhat experimental, and we are constantly learning. Which is the way it should be.



I don't think it's the way it should be.  It's like locking one door to your house and leaving another one wide open.  Either everyone should have to mask up all the time, or it should be up to the individual.  A situation in which schoolteachers wear masks to work but not to parties seems ridiculous to me.


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## Shero




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## Butterfly

Becky1951 said:


> It's not just the unvaccinated.
> 
> This is just one state reporting, there's more.
> 
> "There have been 2,716 hospitalizations among *fully vaccinated *people in Massachusetts"
> 
> "The 2,716 total patients is a one-week increase of 273 fully vaxxed patients."
> 
> https://www-bostonherald-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bostonherald.com/2021/12/07/massachusetts-coronavirus-breakthrough-cases-surge-11321-last-week-smashing-record-high-for-the-state/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16391553327256&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/12/07/massachusetts-coronavirus-breakthrough-cases-surge-11321-last-week-smashing-record-high-for-the-state/


The way I read that is that those are positive cases, not hospitalizations.  I tried to get back into the article after acciodentally closing it but it would not let me back in without paying, so I might have misread, but I am pretty sure those numbers were positive tests, not hospitalizations.  Big difference.


----------



## Becky1951

Butterfly said:


> The way I read that is that those are positive cases, not hospitalizations.  I tried to get back into the article after acciodentally closing it but it would not let me back in without paying, so I might have misread, but I am pretty sure those numbers were positive tests, not hospitalizations.  Big difference.


""There have been 2,716 *hospitalizations* among *fully vaccinated *people in Massachusetts"

Pretty sure that says *hospitalizations*.


----------



## dseag2

Why keep the back-and-forth on this topic?  I don't think anyone has been persuaded either way.  Great information on both sides, but I don't think it will ever make anyone on either side make a different decision.  Yes, it is entertaining to read, but I'm not sure it provides anything new.  I've made my decision re: protections against Covid and nothing anyone says on here will change that.  Conversely, no one who has chosen not to get the vaccine will ever decide differently because of my opinion.

Is this just a means of entertainment and a way to occupy time due to boredom?  Or is it a way to assert superiority?  Either way, this is just meaningless IMO.  I understand the need for a good, healthy difference of opinions but this has gotten tired.


----------



## win231

dseag2 said:


> Why keep the back-and-forth on this topic?  I don't think anyone has been persuaded either way.  Great information on both sides, but I don't think it will ever make anyone on either side make a different decision.  Yes, it is entertaining to read, but I'm not sure it provides anything new.  I've made my decision re: protections against Covid and nothing anyone says on here will change that.  Conversely, no one who has chosen not to get the vaccine will ever decide differently because of my opinion.
> 
> Is this just a means of entertainment and a way to occupy time due to boredom?  Or is it a way to assert superiority?  Either way, this is just meaningless IMO.  I understand the need for a good, healthy difference of opinions but this has gotten tired.


If you're "tired," it might be a side effect of the vaccine.  So you SHOULDN'T have had it.   

Seriously, what's wrong with sharing information?  It's true that some people will argue just to feel superior (as I've said before), but just because someone debates something, it doesn't mean they're always trying to change anyone's mind.  They are usually responding to the put-down artists who ridicule anyone who doesn't do as they did.
I don't care who gets vaccinated & I don't care who doesn't.
I chose not to & I've driven elderly friends to get theirs because that's what they wanted.  Intelligent people don't try to change others' minds about it.


----------



## Tish

I had to post it to Fascist Book, doing the countdown for it to be removed.
10......9.....8...


----------



## dseag2

I should have known that you would have been the first to respond to my post.  I won't attempt to spar with you because I'm not Aneeda. I'm not nearly that creative or clever at 2am.


----------



## win231

dseag2 said:


> I should have known that you would have been the first to respond to my post.  I won't attempt to spar with you because I'm not Aneeda. I'm not nearly that creative or clever at 2am.


"2:00 am?"
Like Clint Eastwood said in_ "High Plains Drifter" _when a woman walked into his hotel room for a little fun while he was already in bed:
_"A man needs his rest."
 _


----------



## dseag2

win231 said:


> Like Clint Eastwood said in_ "High Plains Drifter" _when a woman walked into his hotel room for a little fun while he was already in bed:
> _"A man needs his rest."
> _


Yes, it is almost 2am here in Dallas.  I am just tired.  And yes, a man needs his rest.  Going to sleep.  

Much respect to you, Win.  I don't know what SF would be without you!


----------



## hollydolly

chic said:


> People have stopped wearing masks indoors in my community pretty much now. So it's up to the individual whether or not to mask up as it should be.


Not here now...as from today everyone is mandated to wear masks again in all indoor venues...including shops and public transport..


----------



## Shero

dseag2 said:


> Why keep the back-and-forth on this topic?  I don't think anyone has been persuaded either way.  Great information on both sides, but I don't think it will ever make anyone on either side make a different decision.  Yes, it is entertaining to read, but I'm not sure it provides anything new.  I've made my decision re: protections against Covid and nothing anyone says on here will change that.  Conversely, no one who has chosen not to get the vaccine will ever decide differently because of my opinion.
> 
> Is this just a means of entertainment and a way to occupy time due to boredom?  Or is it a way to assert superiority?  Either way, this is just meaningless IMO.  I understand the need for a good, healthy difference of opinions but this has gotten tired.


.
No one is forcing you to read this or any thread  dseag. You always have the option to go past any thread that brings you grief.

Chic, Becky, John, and the other one have as much right to contribute their non-sense as they please.  It is up to Matrix to decide what's what, so stop whinging please and enjoy your Christmas!


.


----------



## Alice November

Yeah, this bickering and moralizing virtue signaling has been going on since, what? early last summer? And lately it seems like it might have escalated into a large amount of internet scapegoating onto unvaxed people of the world population. Useless is that, because as 'win' said it's CovSars's fault, not anyone else's.

Apologies if I didn't put the exact quote -- my sense of this whole thing is that sometimes people need somebody or some 'other' group of 'somebody else' to blame when times get desperate.

My interest and curiosity is more about what people think and are doing in light of our comman situation than it is about the actual SarsCov2 virus though. Must be my anthropology back ground. So I appreciate people having ideas and conversations and reactions to gov's mandates and latest advice and number projections, which are sometimes so contradictory it sets me to laughing. 

Everybody do keep safe 'cause somebody loves ya!
🕊


----------



## win231

Shero said:


> .
> No one is forcing you to read this or any thread  dseag. You always have the option to go past any thread that brings you grief.
> 
> Chic, Becky, John, and the other one have as much right to contribute their non-sense as they please.  It is up to Matrix to decide what's what, so stop whinging please and enjoy your Christmas!
> 
> 
> .


You also have as much right to contribute your nonsense as you please.  You certainly exercise that right often.
Nonsense is one word.
And be nice to dseag2.  He's lotsa fun.


----------



## Ladybj

Pepper said:


> I haven't had one in a million years!  Would you share your recipe?


Your favorite brown alcohol - whiskey, etc., honey, lemon.  

Pour a small amount of alcohol in a cup - more than small amount depending on how you feel, a small amount of honey ( I use raw organic honey) and squeeze of lemon - microwave until hot.  Sip - be careful it will be HOT.  It's good at bedtime but can take anytime - just make sure you are curled up because it will relax you.  This is an old Folk remedy.   I do not take cough medicine - Hot Toddy is my go to.  Have not had a cold in years.


----------



## Ladybj

Alice November said:


> Yeah, this bickering and moralizing virtue signaling has been going on since, what? early last summer? And lately it seems like it might have escalated into a large amount of internet scapegoating onto unvaxed people of the world population. Useless is that, because as 'win' said it's CovSars's fault, not anyone else's.
> 
> Apologies if I didn't put the exact quote -- my sense of this whole thing is that sometimes people need somebody or some 'other' group of 'somebody else' to blame when times get desperate.
> 
> My interest and curiosity is more about what people think and are doing in light of our comman situation than it is about the actual SarsCov2 virus though. Must be my anthropology back ground. So I appreciate people having ideas and conversations and reactions to gov's mandates and latest advice and number projections, which are sometimes so contradictory it sets me to laughing.
> 
> Everybody do keep safe 'cause somebody loves ya!
> 🕊


Yup... On Point


----------



## Ladybj

Those that are not getting vaccinated are not stopping anyone from getting vaccinated, they are looking out for their health/well being just as those that decide to get vaccinated.  We all do what is best for us and our health. I am not anti-vaxx, I am Pro my health.


----------



## Ladybj

win231 said:


> Of course everyone should mind their own business.  But it's not a perfect world.
> The controversy involves causes of death listed as Covid that had nothing to do with Covid.  And exaggerated mortality & infection rates.
> Covid is not a "Hoax" but we're not being told the truth.


I've know several people that died and they said it was Covid but it wasn't.


----------



## win231

Sunny said:


> As this disease is still pretty new, no one has all the answers. And certainly no government does. So dealing with the pandemic varies all over the place, largely depending on who is in charge.
> 
> In my state, Maryland, it actually varies from county to county. It's the county executives who make the rules about masking, vaccines, etc. My county is very strict, and requires masks indoors when the counties next door have no such requirement. (We also have a relatively low Covid death rate, which does not surprise me.)
> 
> But even here, the rules about masks have changed, following the disease statistics. This is all still somewhat experimental, and we are constantly learning. Which is the way it should be.


Interesting - you say "No one has all the answers."
Uh.....no one except you.  Or, so you think.
In Post #32, you say we shouldn't be _"Terrified of a harmless vaccine."_
You know the vaccine is harmless because.......you have all the answers.


----------



## Sassycakes

This brought to mind the Polio Vaccine when I was young. A friend I knew was in an iron lung for months after getting Polio. That was before the vaccine came out. Thank God he recovered. I am so happy they came out with the vaccine. Have there been many cases of people getting Polio after the vaccine came out?


----------



## Becky1951

Sassycakes said:


> This brought to mind the Polio Vaccine when I was young. A friend I knew was in an iron lung for months after getting Polio. That was before the vaccine came out. Thank God he recovered. I am so happy they came out with the vaccine. Have there been many cases of people getting Polio after the vaccine came out?


The polio vaccine was created after a *long trial* of errors then success.  There hasn't been another outbreak since then.   The Covid vaccine was rushed, how many cases of Covid have there been since it came out?  They are called breakthrough cases and there have been thousands so far. 

Just look up Covid breakthrough cases and you will find different states reporting breakthrough cases.

Just a few days ago, 

Cornell partially shuts down its campus due to more than 900 COVID-19 cases in possible omicron outbreak​
Cornell University has partially shut down its Ithaca, N.Y., campus due to a “rapid spread” of COVID-19 cases among the student body, the Ivy League school announced Tuesday.

The university’s online COVID dashboard counted 469 active student cases as of Tuesday afternoon. It was updated later in the day to count *903 students testing positive* between December 7-13, with school officials telling CNN that *a “very high percentage” of them are omicron variant cases in fully vaccinated people. Some 97% of Cornell’s population is fully vaccinated.

“Virtually every case of the omicron variant to date has been found in fully vaccinated students, a portion of whom had also received a booster shot,”* Vice President for University Relations Joel Malina told CNN.

University president Martha E. Pollack posted a statement online updating the campus community to the worsening COVID outbreak on Tuesday. And she revealed that lab tests have identified evidence of the highly contagious omicron variant in a “significant number” of Monday’s COVID-19 positive student samples. But she cautioned that their evidence of omicron is “preliminary” after PCR testing identified a genetic marker that has been identified as a hallmark of the omicron variant. So while the school awaits confirmatory sequencing information, it is proceeding as if omicron is the source of the outbreak.

“As a result, and out of an abundance of caution, the university is moving to Alert Level Red and announcing a number of immediate measures, outlined below,” she wrote.

The emergency measures include moving all final exams online as of noon on Tuesday.

All undergraduate university activities and university-sponsored events are canceled — and that includes the Dec. 18 graduation ceremony for December graduates.

Students who have tested negative for COVID-19 within the past 48 hours (Saturday or Sunday) who wish to leave campus are allowed, and they are encouraged to wear face masks and take another COVID-19 test when they reach their destination, and self-quarantine until they learn the results.

Students who have not tested negative for COVID within the past 48 hours are advised to get tested ASAP and stay in Ithaca, in their residences, and to “severely limit” their interactions with others until they get their COVID test results.

The campus is not on complete lockdown. Offices and labs will remain open, and student dining areas are still open — although students are encouraged to grab their food and go back to their residences. But many facilities, including libraries, fitness centers and gyms, are closed.

In the meantime, visitors and guests are not allowed on campus, except for those picking up students for the winter break. And those visitors are urged to keep their masks on.

Finally, mandatory COVID testing will continue as normal for employees.

Cornell began trending on Twitter in the hours after news of the partial campus shutdown broke, sparking almost 13,000 tweets as of 5 p.m. ET.

“While I want to provide reassurance that, to date, we have not seen severe illness in any of our infected students, we do have a role to play in reducing the spread of the disease in the broader community,” Pollack wrote.

Cornell’s last full day of classes was Dec. 7, and final exams are scheduled through Dec. 18.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/c...ases-in-possible-omicron-outbreak-11639514565


----------



## chic

Becky1951 said:


> The polio vaccine was created after a *long trial* of errors then success.  There hasn't been another outbreak since then.   The Covid vaccine was rushed, how many cases of Covid have there been since it came out?  They are called breakthrough cases and there have been thousands so far.
> 
> Just look up Covid breakthrough cases and you will find different states reporting breakthrough cases.
> 
> Just a few days ago,
> 
> Cornell partially shuts down its campus due to more than 900 COVID-19 cases in possible omicron outbreak​
> Cornell University has partially shut down its Ithaca, N.Y., campus due to a “rapid spread” of COVID-19 cases among the student body, the Ivy League school announced Tuesday.
> 
> The university’s online COVID dashboard counted 469 active student cases as of Tuesday afternoon. It was updated later in the day to count *903 students testing positive* between December 7-13, with school officials telling CNN that *a “very high percentage” of them are omicron variant cases in fully vaccinated people. Some 97% of Cornell’s population is fully vaccinated.
> 
> “Virtually every case of the omicron variant to date has been found in fully vaccinated students, a portion of whom had also received a booster shot,”* Vice President for University Relations Joel Malina told CNN.
> 
> University president Martha E. Pollack posted a statement online updating the campus community to the worsening COVID outbreak on Tuesday. And she revealed that lab tests have identified evidence of the highly contagious omicron variant in a “significant number” of Monday’s COVID-19 positive student samples. But she cautioned that their evidence of omicron is “preliminary” after PCR testing identified a genetic marker that has been identified as a hallmark of the omicron variant. So while the school awaits confirmatory sequencing information, it is proceeding as if omicron is the source of the outbreak.
> 
> “As a result, and out of an abundance of caution, the university is moving to Alert Level Red and announcing a number of immediate measures, outlined below,” she wrote.
> 
> The emergency measures include moving all final exams online as of noon on Tuesday.
> 
> All undergraduate university activities and university-sponsored events are canceled — and that includes the Dec. 18 graduation ceremony for December graduates.
> 
> Students who have tested negative for COVID-19 within the past 48 hours (Saturday or Sunday) who wish to leave campus are allowed, and they are encouraged to wear face masks and take another COVID-19 test when they reach their destination, and self-quarantine until they learn the results.
> 
> Students who have not tested negative for COVID within the past 48 hours are advised to get tested ASAP and stay in Ithaca, in their residences, and to “severely limit” their interactions with others until they get their COVID test results.
> 
> The campus is not on complete lockdown. Offices and labs will remain open, and student dining areas are still open — although students are encouraged to grab their food and go back to their residences. But many facilities, including libraries, fitness centers and gyms, are closed.
> 
> In the meantime, visitors and guests are not allowed on campus, except for those picking up students for the winter break. And those visitors are urged to keep their masks on.
> 
> Finally, mandatory COVID testing will continue as normal for employees.
> 
> Cornell began trending on Twitter in the hours after news of the partial campus shutdown broke, sparking almost 13,000 tweets as of 5 p.m. ET.
> 
> “While I want to provide reassurance that, to date, we have not seen severe illness in any of our infected students, we do have a role to play in reducing the spread of the disease in the broader community,” Pollack wrote.
> 
> Cornell’s last full day of classes was Dec. 7, and final exams are scheduled through Dec. 18.
> 
> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/c...ases-in-possible-omicron-outbreak-11639514565


The shut down Broadway too. All these people are fully vaccinated with no unvaxxed allowed so how are the unvaxxed responsible for this when they are not allowed anywhere near?


----------



## John cycling

Sassycakes said:


> This brought to mind the Polio Vaccine when I was young. A friend I knew was in an iron lung for months after getting Polio. That was before the vaccine came out. Thank God he recovered. I am so happy they came out with the vaccine. Have there been many cases of people getting Polio after the vaccine came out?



The polio paralysis condition was caused by the use of <-- mercury, lead in water pipes, arsenic used in pesticides, anesthetic drugs and similar toxins. <-- The same things continue to happen today from the use of those and similar toxic substances.

Just like now, the real causes were covered up and blamed on a virus.  Now people are tied down on a bed, paralyzed with drugs against their will, intubated with a tube that's crammed down their throats, and slowly choked and starved to death with the use of antibiotic drugs that starve the cells of the body and hasten the process.  Intubation is always a barbaric procedure, and very few ever survive.

Back then and now, the truth remains that no virus has ever been isolated, <-- which is a requirement to prove they exist.


----------



## Shero

John cycling said:


> The polio paralysis condition was caused by the use of <-- mercury, lead in water pipes, arsenic used in pesticides, anesthetic drugs and similar toxins. <-- The same things continue to happen today from the use of those and similar toxic substances.
> 
> Just like now, the real causes were covered up and blamed on a virus.  Now people are tied down on a bed, paralyzed with drugs against their will, intubated with a tube that's crammed down their throats, and slowly chocked and starved to death with the use of antibiotic drugs that starve the cells of the body and hasten the process.  Intubation is always a barbaric procedure, and very few ever survive.
> 
> Back then and now, the truth remains that no virus has ever been isolated, <-- which is a requirement to prove they exist.



Sigh


----------



## Becky1951

“Moulin Rouge! The Musical” was the latest Broadway hit to fall victim to the resurgence of COVID-19 cases in the Big Apple as the show was abruptly canceled Thursday night with fans already in their seats.

The sudden cancellation at the Al Hirschfeld Theatre was due to “a late-in-the-day positive test result in the company,” a spokesperson confirmed to The Post.

Organizers will determine the future performance schedule on Friday, the spokesperson said.

*A number of other Broadway shows canceled performances this week over breakthrough coronavirus cases, *but the decisions were made before the audiences were seated.

Thursday night’s decision with “Moulin Rouge! The Musical” caught attendees off guard and triggered flashbacks of the early days of the pandemic.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/16/broad...ed-over-covid-with-audience-already-in-seats/


----------



## Don M.

I suspect we are quickly entering another spike in this virus...determined by how quickly this latest variant is spreading.  I will not be surprised if we see some of the most disruptive conditions of the past 2 years by early next year.  Broadway shows shutting down, and NFL games being rescheduled may just be the beginning of some of the most severe "interruptions" we have seen, to date.


----------



## Irwin

Three cases of covid have been detected in the nursing home where my wife is staying: one patient, one, worker, and one student who was observing. I don't know what variant it is, but that's scary when it happens in a facility with elderly patients with weakened immune systems. The worker who caught it no longer works there. I have no idea what the circumstances were.


----------



## dseag2

Irwin said:


> Three cases of covid have been detected in the nursing home where my wife is staying: one patient, one, worker, and one student who was observing. I don't know what variant it is, but that's scary when it happens in a facility with elderly patients with weakened immune systems. The worker who caught it no longer works there. I have no idea what the circumstances were.


I'm so sorry, Irwin.  I spent almost a year waving to my mother through a window and speaking with her on the phone in her assisted living facility during the height of the Covid crisis.  Sounds like we are reaching the second "height".  I wish all the best for your wife.


----------



## Irwin

dseag2 said:


> I'm so sorry, Irwin.  I spent almost a year waving to my mother through a window and speaking with her on the phone in her assisted living facility during the height of the Covid crisis.  Sounds like we are reaching the second "height".  I wish all the best for your wife.


She should be alright. They're very careful at the facility. As soon as the omicron variant showed up in Colorado — when was that, last week? — they started requiring visitors to wear plastic shields in addition to the required facemasks. All visitors are required to be vaccinated and they take the temperature of visitors before they can get past the lobby. They'll probably start testing visitors pretty soon, if that's possible to know the results immediately from tests. Obviously, they test the staff regularly.


----------



## Sunny

The trouble with that is, it seems to be possible for a person to be carrying the virus, probably in their nasal passages or mouth, and not be sick from it. In fact, that's probably true of many of us who have been vaccinated.  That is the purpose of the vaccine. The virus isn't going to disappear, but the vaccine protects us to a large extent, and probably many people are walking around with Covid in their bodies, without being aware of it. (Plus probably umpteen other diseases.)

So, what happens when one of those younger, stronger, healthier people, who are unknowingly carrying the virus, visit the nursing home? Unless they are given a test upon entry into the building, with instant results, taking their temperature isn't really proving anything one way or another.


----------



## Pauline1954

Becky1951 said:


> Yes but why do people ignore the fact that the vaccinated also are being hospitalized and its not *all* the unvaccinated filling up hospitals causing other health conditions to have to wait?
> 
> Vaccinated or not, Covid is the cause.


Fully vaccinated are also dying of covid. Fully vaccinated means nothing to me compared to the results we are seeing. Comorbidities are also a contributing factor.  So anyone having Comorbidities are already at risk of dying of covid vaccinated or not.  Nothing makes sense to me. And dont be too quick to jump on the bandwagon. When a salesman wants to sell you his products, he will use every trigger he can to induce you to buy.   

Use reasonable thinking. Dont buy everything they are selling on tv.  Eat healthy and balanced, exercise and get your rest.  At our age we have to use a little bit more criticle thinking.  We have headache medicines and a plethora of other otc drugs to help us stay and get better. So have some good supplements as well and take them as preventative.    I try to be prepared and that can be a life saver.


----------



## Pepper

Pauline1954 said:


> Fully vaccinated are also dying of covid.


Fully vaccinated is the needle in the unvaccinated haystack.  You know it's true.  Nurses and doctors are begging folks to get vaccinated.  They see it, every hour of every day.  I think they know what they are talking about.


----------



## Irwin

I got my booster shot and a flu shot early yesterday afternoon. Last night I was feeling all achy and a little shaky. It was the side effects of one of the shots — probably the flu shot. This morning, I feel fine.


----------



## Sunny

"Fully vaccinated is the needle in the unvaccinated haystack.  You know it's true.  Nurses and doctors are begging folks to get vaccinated.   They see it, every hour of every day.  I think they know what they are talking about."

Here's one answer, Pepper. Some things apparently never change.

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not : There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."  Jeremiah, 5:21


----------



## Pauline1954

Sunny said:


> "Fully vaccinated is the needle in the unvaccinated haystack.  You know it's true.  Nurses and doctors are begging folks to get vaccinated.   They see it, every hour of every day.  I think they know what they are talking about."
> 
> Here's one answer, Pepper. Some things apparently never change.
> 
> "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not : There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."  Jeremiah, 5:21



And those that swallow everything they are told, maybe setting themselves up for a bad case of indigestion at the very least.   

To swallow or not to swallow. That is the question.


----------



## JimBob1952

One problem with being anti-vax is that you are on the same side as this guy.  

https://nypost.com/2021/09/23/anti-vax-conspiracy-theorist-rfk-jr-is-the-dumbest-kennedy/


----------



## Sunny

Pauline1954 said:


> And those that swallow everything they are told, maybe setting themselves up for a bad case of indigestion at the very least.
> 
> To swallow or not to swallow. That is the question.


The question is, whose truth are you swallowing?  The truth being issued day after day, around the clock, by scientists, who are begging us to do what's necessary to save our own lives, and the lives of our families?  Or the "truth" being concocted by tin-horn politicians who can apparently get some people to believe any nonsense, regardless of the proven facts... because they can get the "easy marks" to fall in step with them?

Personally, I know whose truth I choose to swallow.


----------



## Pauline1954

Sunny said:


> The question is, whose truth are you swallowing?  The truth being issued day after day, around the clock, by scientists, who are begging us to do what's necessary to save our own lives, and the lives of our families?  Or the "truth" being concocted by tin-horn politicians who can apparently get some people to believe any nonsense, regardless of the proven facts... because they can get the "easy marks" to fall in step with them?
> 
> Personally, I know whose truth I choose to swallow.



But is it truth or propaganda?  Awe. Your truth, my truth or The truth. Gulp!


----------



## Nosy Bee-54

"Some 163,000 Covid-19 deaths in the U.S. could have been prevented by vaccination since June this year and the virus is one of the leading causes of death in all age groups, according to research by the Kaiser Family Foundation, as cases soar amid concerns the new omicron variant will trigger another wave of infections."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robert...-have-saved-them-study-finds/?sh=308838db44e8


----------



## Don M.

It appears that the Moderna 2 shots, plus the booster, are currently the best protection against both Delta and Omicron.  That's what we got, and so far we haven't had any issues...other than a slightly sore arm for a day or two.  

There is NO doubt, in my mind, that we will be seeing another, and perhaps very large "spike" in cases, early in 2022.  It seems that almost half the population isn't fully vaccinated, or masking up/avoiding crowds, etc.  

The financial markets are already showing signs of economic downturn in anticipation of what is coming.  And, the hospitals are unlikely to be able to handle a large increase in patients, above what they already have.  

Initial data indicates that Omicron isn't as deadly as Delta...especially for the vaccinated....but, it seems to spread much easier.  This "spread" is going to make for a miserable start to 2022.


----------



## Irwin

Don M. said:


> It appears that the Moderna 2 shots, plus the booster, are currently the best protection against both Delta and Omicron.  That's what we got, and so far we haven't had any issues...other than a slightly sore arm for a day or two.
> 
> There is NO doubt, in my mind, that we will be seeing another, and perhaps very large "spike" in cases, early in 2022.  It seems that almost half the population isn't fully vaccinated, or masking up/avoiding crowds, etc.
> 
> The financial markets are already showing signs of economic downturn in anticipation of what is coming.  And, the hospitals are unlikely to be able to handle a large increase in patients, above what they already have.
> 
> Initial data indicates that Omicron isn't as deadly as Delta...especially for the vaccinated....but, it seems to spread much easier.  This "spread" is going to make for a miserable start to 2022.


I got the Pfizer booster and didn't have a sore arm, but I had mild flu-like symptoms that evening, although that was probably from the flu shot, which I got at the same time. So really, there was nothing to complain about.

People who care about others and who care about our country are getting vaccinated. To me, it doesn't seem like that big of a sacrifice. The unvaccinated are far more likely to wind up with severe symptoms to the point they need to go to the hospital, which is costing our country (meaning taxpayers) a sh*tload of money. They're also far more likely to die from covid-19.

From September 4 through October 1, 2021:

Unvaccinated people were 13 times more likely to become infected with COVID-19 than fully vaccinated people.
Unvaccinated people were 20 times more likely to experience COVID-19-associated death than fully vaccinated people.
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/cases-and-deaths-by-vaccination-status-11082021.pdf


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## fmdog44

OUSTON — After warnings of an omicron surge over the holidays, Harris County has reported its first death caused by the omicron variant of COVID-19. It's also the first known omicron death reported nationwide.
County Judge Lina Hidalgo made the announcement during an afternoon news conference. 
"My phone was ringing, I'm sure you guys noticed, and it was our public health director telling me we just had our first omicron-related death," she said.
(By the way, he never got the vaccine)


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## fmdog44

Pauline1954 said:


> Fully vaccinated are also dying of covid. Fully vaccinated means nothing to me compared to the results we are seeing. Comorbidities are also a contributing factor.  So anyone having Comorbidities are already at risk of dying of covid vaccinated or not.  Nothing makes sense to me. And dont be too quick to jump on the bandwagon. When a salesman wants to sell you his products, he will use every trigger he can to induce you to buy.
> 
> Use reasonable thinking. Dont buy everything they are selling on tv.  Eat healthy and balanced, exercise and get your rest.  At our age we have to use a little bit more criticle thinking.  We have headache medicines and a plethora of other otc drugs to help us stay and get better. So have some good supplements as well and take them as preventative.    I try to be prepared and that can be a life saver.


Publish the list of vaccinated deaths next to the list of unvaccinated deaths.


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## win231

Yes, the Covid vaccines work so well that today's update said 3,500 new cases.
Yesterday's was around the same.


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## chic

win231 said:


> Yes, the Covid vaccines work so well that today's update said 3,500 new cases.
> Yesterday's was around the same.


When will they distinguish between "cases" and deaths or hospitalizations?  
And no, the vaccines don't work well. Operation warp speed indeed! What did you expect?


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## Jackie23

chic said:


> When will they distinguish between "cases" and deaths or hospitalizations?
> And no, the vaccines don't work well. Operation warp speed indeed! What did you expect?


Listening to doctors and nurses on the front lines battling to save lives and risking their own lives KNOW better, they KNOW there are more cases being reported because the omicron variant is more contagious than the others.... they repeatedly tell us to get vaccinated....they KNOW that even if the vaccinated get the virus their symptoms will not be as severe as the unvaccinated.  They KNOW that the death count of the unvaccinated is far greater than the vaccinated, they KNOW that the unvaccinated is making their life and the life of others harder, they KNOW and are disgusted with the unvaccinated and their conspiracies....this is why they get on TV and beg people to get vaccinated because they live and see the enormous danger the unvaccinated are causing.  Read the statistics and listen to those that are fighting the battle daily.


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## rgp

win231 said:


> If you're "tired," it might be a side effect of the vaccine.  So you SHOULDN'T have had it.
> 
> Seriously, what's wrong with sharing information?  It's true that some people will argue just to feel superior (as I've said before), but just because someone debates something, it doesn't mean they're always trying to change anyone's mind.  They are usually responding to the put-down artists who ridicule anyone who doesn't do as they did.
> I don't care who gets vaccinated & I don't care who doesn't.
> I chose not to & I've driven elderly friends to get theirs because that's what they wanted.  Intelligent people don't try to change others' minds about it.




 "Intelligent people don't try to change others' minds about it."

 If that is truely the way you feel ? Then why is it that *you *try so hard to change others minds , about so many other topics ? And then when you cannot, *you* resort to ridicule and put-downs ?


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## dseag2

I can only say that my Evangelical cousin and her mother (my aunt) are against vaccines.  There are no health reasons.  She just refuses to take them for political reasons.  When we were visiting my ailing mother in assisted living and I asked her to put on a mask, she said she doesn't usually wear one because she has CS.  Common Sense.  

We are actually very close, but we differ in our political views.  Her mother is 90 years old, and she has just come down with Covid.  I understand she is coughing a lot and is taking Ivermectin.  I still don't understand the reluctance, but I just hope my aunt will be okay.


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## Butterfly

Pepper said:


> Fully vaccinated is the needle in the unvaccinated haystack.  You know it's true.  Nurses and doctors are begging folks to get vaccinated.  They see it, every hour of every day.  I think they know what they are talking about.


And fully vaccinated people who die of it almost always either have compromised immune systems, have co-morbidities, or are elderly.  

Our hospitals and doctors here are also begging people to get vaccinated, if they are not already.


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## Nosy Bee-54

The virus isn't going anywhere because of mutations and inequity in vaccinations within the global community. So, Refusers/Deniers may find some solace in the following:

“Blanket booster programs are likely to prolong the pandemic, rather than ending it, by diverting supply to countries that already have high levels of vaccination coverage, giving the virus more opportunity to spread and mutate,” WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said during a news briefing.

*"*Currently, the vast majority of Covid hospitalizations and deaths are among unvaccinated people, not vaccinated people without booster shots, according to Tedros.

*“No country can boost its way out of the pandemic,”* he said.

Global health experts say the emergence of omicron is tied to vaccine inequality. Omicron is thought to have emerged from an HIV patient in South Africa where just 26% of the population is fully vaccinated, scientists have said. The virus mutates particularly well in people with compromised immune systems where it can live for a long time and figure out how to survive inside its human host.

The WHO estimates just half of its member states will have vaccinated at least 40% of their populations by the end of this year “because of distortions in global supply,” Tedros said.

*Vaccine inequity is “the most horrific injustice of 2021*,” Dr. Michael Ryan, executive director of the WHO’s health emergencies program, said at the briefing*"*


https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/who-says-covid-vaccine-booster-programs-will-prolong-pandemic.html


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## Don M.

I had to chuckle a bit when Trump announced that he has been vaccinated and boosted, at a recent rally....and was Booed by the audience.  If these "booers" don't begin to wake up to reality, their "party" may not have enough voters left to make a difference in upcoming elections.


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## Becky1951

Nosy Bee-54 said:


> The virus isn't going anywhere because of mutations and inequity in vaccinations within the global community. So, Refusers/Deniers may find some solace in the following:
> 
> “Blanket booster programs are likely to prolong the pandemic, rather than ending it, by diverting supply to countries that already have high levels of vaccination coverage, giving the virus more opportunity to spread and mutate,” WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said during a news briefing.
> 
> *"*Currently, the vast majority of Covid hospitalizations and deaths are among unvaccinated people, not vaccinated people without booster shots, according to Tedros.
> 
> *“No country can boost its way out of the pandemic,”* he said.
> 
> Global health experts say the emergence of omicron is tied to vaccine inequality. Omicron is thought to have emerged from an HIV patient in South Africa where just 26% of the population is fully vaccinated, scientists have said. The virus mutates particularly well in people with compromised immune systems where it can live for a long time and figure out how to survive inside its human host.
> 
> The WHO estimates just half of its member states will have vaccinated at least 40% of their populations by the end of this year “because of distortions in global supply,” Tedros said.
> 
> *Vaccine inequity is “the most horrific injustice of 2021*,” Dr. Michael Ryan, executive director of the WHO’s health emergencies program, said at the briefing*"*
> 
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/who-says-covid-vaccine-booster-programs-will-prolong-pandemic.html


"So, Refusers/Deniers may find some solace in the following"

The non vaccinated who I know and myself included do not want or wish this pandemic to continue.


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## win231

Jackie23 said:


> Listening to doctors and nurses on the front lines battling to save lives and risking their own lives KNOW better, they KNOW there are more cases being reported because the omicron variant is more contagious than the others.... they repeatedly tell us to get vaccinated....they KNOW that even if the vaccinated get the virus their symptoms will not be as severe as the unvaccinated.  They KNOW that the death count of the unvaccinated is far greater than the vaccinated, they KNOW that the unvaccinated is making their life and the life of others harder, they KNOW and are disgusted with the unvaccinated and their conspiracies....this is why they get on TV and beg people to get vaccinated because they live and see the enormous danger the unvaccinated are causing.  Read the statistics and listen to those that are fighting the battle daily.


^^^^ This is a recording.


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## Jackie23

win231 said:


> ^^^^ This is a recording.


LOL.....I know its been said over and over....annoying isn't it?
Kinda like people that hear over and over and never learn.


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## Tom 86

Here is a good article.  Read it to the end.

https://weartv.com/news/coronavirus...LZXUffwGmBkld69X5i2ezN17IjH3duS7HyLEaA9Rn2cFg


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## Devi

Tom 86 said:


> Here is a good article.  Read it to the end.
> 
> https://weartv.com/news/coronavirus...LZXUffwGmBkld69X5i2ezN17IjH3duS7HyLEaA9Rn2cFg


@Tom 86, apparently that article has been posted on more than one website.

'We do exist': Some Americans suffer life-changing COVID vaccine injuries

But do as you wish.


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## Packerjohn

I'm lucky.  I have an appointment to get my booster shot on December 29.  No one is approaching me not to do it.  Anyway, I'm a country boy and I know what is right and I know what is wrong and I as sure as a snowball in a hot place am not going to be pushed around or forced to do the wrong thing.


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## Irwin

Here's a video of the chemist people have talked about in the above posts. He's an advocate for vaccines, even though his wife had a severe reaction.


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## Becky1951

Packerjohn said:


> I'm lucky.  I have an appointment to get my booster shot on December 29.  No one is approaching me not to do it.  Anyway, I'm a country boy and I know what is right and I know what is wrong and I as sure as a snowball in a hot place am not going to be pushed around or forced to do the wrong thing.


"No one is approaching me not to do it."

That's right, most who do not wish to be vaccinated could care less who is or isn't vaccinated.


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## Pauline1954

Becky1951 said:


> "No one is approaching me not to do it."
> 
> That's right, most who do not wish to be vaccinated could care less who is or isn't vaccinated.


Exactly!   Even when i had surgery on tuesday NOT ONE medical professional in two huge medical building connected to a large hospital asked me if I got the shot.  And I didnt offer my vaccine status either. They KNOW!


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## Nosy Bee-54

Just read the following and got a kick out of it. 

"I don't know what is in ibuprofen or any other pain killers. They just treat my headaches and pain. I don't know what is in the tattoo ink, botox and fillers, or every ingredient in my soap, shampoo and deodorants. Furthermore, I don't know whether or not that restaurant I just ate at really used clean foods and that the employees washed their hands. I got vaccinated because I don't want to die from COVID-19"


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## win231

Pauline1954 said:


> Exactly!   Even when i had surgery on tuesday NOT ONE medical professional in two huge medical building connected to a large hospital asked me if I got the shot.  And I didnt offer my vaccine status either. They KNOW!


At my doctor visit, they also don't ask whether or not I'm vaccinated.
They ask if I've had the pneumonia or shingles vaccine or a colonoscopy.  When I say "No," they don't say anything else.


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## Irwin

I had to show my vaccination card the first time I visited my wife at the nursing home where she's staying. They made a copy of it along with my driver's license. They required masks before the omicron variant and now require face shields along with the masks.

I'm glad they're taking all those precautions. It's not that big of a deal for me to do my part to help prevent an outbreak in the facility.


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## dseag2

win231 said:


> At my doctor visit, they also don't ask whether or not I'm vaccinated.
> They ask if I've had the pneumonia or shingles vaccine or a colonoscopy.  When I say "No," they don't say anything else.


That's because they are afraid to ask any further questions.


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## Sunny

If you are not asked whether you have received the vaccine, it's probably because that information is already in their computer, attached to your health record. The latest information about preventatives of those other diseases may not be.

And Win, they don't ask whether you've been vaccinated?  They probably don't ask if you've recently attempted suicide either. (In a way, being unvaccinated is kind of the same thing.)

Funny, I've had the opposite experience. In more and more of the places I go, if there is expected to be a large number of people, I have to show proof of vaccination before I can even get in the door. I don't mean in medical facilities; they already know. But in theatres, meeting halls, etc. Most of us carry our proof of vaccination/booster card around with us all the time, like a driver's license. Our Covid disease numbers are much lower than in those places that are, incredibly, still saying, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."


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## Jules

I can’t speak to the rest of Canada, but here in BC we had anti-vaxxers obstructing vaccination sites and some hospitals.  The government had to create safe zones.  We had some Remembrance Day ceremonies taken over by anti-vaxxers.  At our provincial building, we had 3 people hung in effigy.  The Chief Medical officer has to have round the clock security because of death threats.  No, anti-vaxxers aren’t always in the background saying nothing and being non-obstructive, they can be downright nasty.  Ask the beleagured store workers who have to deal with those non-maskers when they’re ranting about how fake Covid is.


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## win231

Sunny said:


> If you are not asked whether you have received the vaccine, it's probably because that information is already in their computer, attached to your health record. The latest information about preventatives of those other diseases may not be.
> 
> And Win, they don't ask whether you've been vaccinated?  They probably don't ask if you've recently attempted suicide either. (In a way, being unvaccinated is kind of the same thing.)
> 
> Funny, I've had the opposite experience. In more and more of the places I go, if there is expected to be a large number of people, I have to show proof of vaccination before I can even get in the door. I don't mean in medical facilities; they already know. But in theatres, meeting halls, etc. Most of us carry our proof of vaccination/booster card around with us all the time, like a driver's license. Our Covid disease numbers are much lower than in those places that are, incredibly, still saying, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."


ROFLOL - _"Attempting suicide is the same as being unvaccinated."_
Really?  How desperate can you be to appear right?
Are you a retired professional comedian?
Or a can short of a six pack.


----------



## Brookswood

Becky1951 said:


> Yes but why do people ignore the fact that the vaccinated also are being hospitalized and its not *all* the unvaccinated filling up hospitals causing other health conditions to have to wait?
> 
> Vaccinated or not, Covid is the cause.


What is your point?  

I think you begin from a false premise: That people ignore the fact that vaccination is not perfect.   Most of us know that. We also know that vaccination prevents most cases of serious if not deadly illness caused by Covid.


----------



## Flaneuse

Brookswood said:


> What is your point?
> 
> I think you begin from a false premise: That people ignore the fact that vaccination is not perfect.   Most of us know that. We also know that vaccination prevents most cases of serious if not deadly illness caused by Covid.


Exactly.  Hmmm - what was that saying?  "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" or something like that?


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## Devi

win231 said:


> ROFLOL - _"Attempting suicide is the same as being unvaccinated."_
> Really?  How desperate can you be to appear right?
> Are you a retired professional comedian?
> Or a can short of a six pack.


I'll just quote what Win231 said here. Otherwise, I'm out of this thread.


----------

