# Cleveland Indians will become Cleveland Guardians



## Paco Dennis

Known as the Indians since 1915, Cleveland’s Major League Baseball team will be called Guardians.

The ballclub announced the name change Friday — effective at the end of the 2021 season — with a video on Twitter narrated by actor and team fan Tom Hanks. The decision ends months of internal discussions triggered by a national reckoning by institutions and teams to drop logos and names considered racist.

Cleveland Indians will become Cleveland Guardians


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## Alligatorob

That is too bad, I just don't understand how the name was an insult or disrespectful.

I'd be happy if there was a big sports team called the "White Guys" or even the "Hokies" or "Gringos"...  So long as they recruited all folks to the team.  A basketball team of just Honkies, well probably wouldn't be very good.  Did the Washington Generals ever beat the Globetrotters? LOL


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## Don M.

The Washington "Football Team" is still searching for a new "nickname" after decades of using "Redskins".  Personally, if I were a Native American, I would be pleased to see some "recognition" of the race, instead of just trying to ignore those people.


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## Gaer

The new society prohibits me from saying what i want about this name change.


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## Alligatorob

Don M. said:


> Personally, if I were a Native American, I would be pleased to see some "recognition" of the race, instead of just trying to ignore those people.


I agree, but am not a Native American.  

Do we have any Native Americans here?  If so how do you feel about this?  Probably more important than how we do.


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## Chet

Sports teams would like to consider themselves as fighters and warriors, and I think teams were named to suggest those attributes of themselves. I don't think it was meant disrespectfully.


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## oldman

It's a shame what sports has become. It's no wonder why the older guys are shying away from going to games. Some of the older guys are still  glued to the TV for sports, but I am not one of them anymore. I don't see anything racist about the word "Indians."

This is just one way that politics is slowly destroying the old America and dividing the country. We have become the laughing stock of the world.


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## Chet

May as well stop construction of the Crazy Horse monument and demolish what's there.


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## Tom 86

I gave up on ALL sports about 10 years ago.  They're a bunch of overpaid whiners.  They need to get into the Marines & go overseas & see what real men do.


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## jerry old

Don M. said:


> The Washington "Football Team" is still searching for a new "nickname" after decades of using "Redskins".  Personally, if I were a Native American, I would be pleased to see some "recognition" of the race, instead of just trying to ignore those people.



The new name for the Washington Redskins is The Washington Wussies; same for Cleveland;
the Crazy Horse (which i like) will become, 'The Unknown Rider.'
We could put a mask on Crazy Horse and ask, 'Who is that masked man'?

Utter nonsense

Goggle tells me 14 teams have changed their logo in the last two years, most were college teams.

WHAT A CROCK


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## OneEyedDiva

I remember reading about this. I believe it was a couple of years ago. I wondered if they would go ahead and change the name. Now I know.


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## Alligatorob

Will the Cincinnati Reds be next?  

Don't want the Communists feeling bad...


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## jujube

I heard that the Washington Redskins dropped part of their name because it was embarrassing. Henceforth, they'll be known as The Redskins. Badda-boom.


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## Pappy

Stupid….

My high school football team was the Purple Tornados. 
Maybe they should be called the Colorful Breeze.


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## terry123

Pappy said:


> Stupid….
> 
> My high school football team was the Purple Tornados.
> Maybe they should be called the Colorful Breeze.


Our football team was the Red Devils.  All of this is complete nonsense.!!


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## jerry old

jujube said:


> I heard that the Washington Redskins dropped part of their name because it was embarrassing. Henceforth, they'll be known as The Redskins. Badda-boom.


No, no the Washington Orphans, so named on this sites 2020 football.


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## Devi

jerry old said:


> No, no the Washington Orphans, so named on this sites 2020 football.


How about the Washington Whoozits?
Or the Washington Whatevers?
LOL


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## DaveA

terry123 said:


> Our football team was the Red Devils.  All of this is complete nonsense.!!


You might be missing the reason for dropping the name.  A local school team was chastised for the use of the slogan B--- Devils. The emphasis was on "Devils"and the complainants were conservative Christian groups who decided that "devils" were to be defiled, not revered?  Takes all kinds.


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## Irwin

Meh, if Native Americans are offended, the name should be changed. It's just a name for craps sake.

At first I didn't like the name Guardians because it seemed like a dumb name, but it turns out that it was inspired by bridge sculptures in Cleveland. These are the Guardians of Traffic sculptures on the Hope Memorial Bridge (named for Bob Hope's father).






It's an homage to when we used to do great things in the U.S.


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## Verisure

Paco Dennis said:


> Known as the Indians since 1915, Cleveland’s Major League Baseball team will be called Guardians.
> 
> The ballclub announced the name change Friday — effective at the end of the 2021 season — with a video on Twitter narrated by actor and team fan Tom Hanks. The decision ends months of internal discussions triggered by a national reckoning by institutions and teams to drop logos and names considered racist.
> 
> Cleveland Indians will become Cleveland Guardians


I thought they were called the Red Sox.


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## Verisure

Irwin said:


> Meh, if Native Americans are offended, the name should be changed. It's just a name for craps sake.
> 
> At first I didn't like the name Guardians because it seemed like a dumb name, but it turns out that it was inspired by bridge sculptures in Cleveland. These are the Guardians of Traffic sculptures on the Hope Memorial Bridge (named for Bob Hope's father).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's an homage to when we used to do great things in the U.S.


So, from offending Indians to offending Vietnam Veterans. OK, so Bob Hope's father wasn't Bob Hope, but it's close enough. And isn't the New York Yankees an insult to southerners?


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## PamfromTx

I hope that my nephew's high school football team won't change their school name (Sabinal _Yellow_jackets).   You just never know who will get offended ~ next.


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## Verisure

PamfromTx said:


> LOL, I hope that my nephew's high school football team won't change their school name (Sabinal _Yellow_jackets).   You just never know who will get offended ~ next.


Yes. A definite insult to the Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants.


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## horseless carriage

Alligatorob said:


> That is too bad, I just don't understand how the name was an insult or disrespectful.


Indigenous Americans are not Indian, the word Indian came to be used because Christopher Columbus repeatedly expressed the mistaken belief that he had reached the shores of South Asia. Convinced he was correct, Columbus fostered the use of the term Indios, originally, a person from the Indus valley, to refer to the peoples of the so-called, New World.


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## hollydolly

Alligatorob said:


> I agree, but am not a Native American.
> 
> Do we have any Native Americans here?  If so how do you feel about this?  Probably more important than how we do.


..yes but in reality which seems to be ignored by these people  who are so desperate to be politically correct are that there are  ''real'' Indians too.. people who are from India, people born to Indian parents.  Haven't they the right to have their nation used in the name of a sports team, has anyone asked them  ?


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## hollydolly

oldman said:


> It's a shame what sports has become. It's no wonder why the older guys are shying away from going to games. Some of the older guys are still  glued to the TV for sports, but I am not one of them anymore. I don't see anything racist about the word "Indians."
> 
> *This is just one way that politics is slowly destroying the old America and dividing the country. We have become the laughing stock of the world.*


yes you have.. but don't think for one minute you're alone. Great Britain too is right there along with you where this  is concerned.


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## Verisure

horseless carriage said:


> Indigenous Americans are not Indian, the word Indian came to be used because Christopher Columbus repeatedly expressed the mistaken belief that he had reached the shores of South Asia. Convinced he was correct, Columbus fostered the use of the term Indios, originally, a person from the Indus valley, to refer to the peoples of the so-called, New World.


You are not being highly informative. The American Indian is indigenous to "the new world". In continental European languages there are two words denoting people from India and people from the Americas. In Swedish for example *Indier* (from India) and *Indian* (from the American continent).


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## Pappy

terry123 said:


> Our football team was the Red Devils.  All of this is complete nonsense.!!


I totally agree Terry.


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## Verisure

Why not just call them the *Cleveland Ohio Baseball Team* and the *Los Angeles California Baseball Team *and the* Oshkosh Wisconsin Baseball Team*, etc.?


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## Alligatorob

hollydolly said:


> ''real'' Indians


Good point, one we often forget.  So do we have any Asian Indians here?  If so what do y'all think of all this?


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## OscarW

Q: What's the difference between the New York Yankees and the Cleveland Indians? 
A: The last Yankees World Series team picture isn't in black and white.


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## Alligatorob

horseless carriage said:


> Indigenous Americans are not Indian, the word Indian came to be used because Christopher Columbus repeatedly expressed the mistaken belief that he had reached the shores of South Asia. Convinced he was correct, Columbus fostered the use of the term Indios, originally, a person from the Indus valley, to refer to the peoples of the so-called, New World.


You are right of course, but given the 500+ years of using the term to apply to the peoples who were here before the European settlement I think we kind of have to accept it as a done deal.


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## Alligatorob

Verisure said:


> New York Yankees an insult to southerners?


Yes, it has always bothered me.  The "Yankees" killed many of my ancestors, destroyed much of their property, freed their slaves without compensation, and put a couple in prison for no reason but trying to protect what was theirs...

Though all of this is true,  I am being facetious about the name of course. Correcting mistakes of the past can be a real can of worms...


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## Pepper

Just think about it:
Indigenous people of the United States have asked us not to call them insulting names.  Some people resent not being supported in their wish to continue calling them insulting names.  Most native americans live on crappy reservations, not wealthy casinos.  They were put there.  All they are asking for is some respect, but no, that's too much for some of you.

My husband's family is indigenous to Canada.  If I remember, I'll ask my son to tell you off


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## Gary O'

Alligatorob said:


> I agree, but am not a Native American.
> 
> Do we have any Native Americans here? If so how do you feel about this? Probably more important than how we do.




My wife is Cherokee
(With a little bit of Irish in her on occasion) 
I asked her
She doesn't give a rip
Busy making moccasins........slippers....busy making slippers 


hollydolly said:


> ..yes but in reality which seems to be ignored by these people who are so desperate to be politically correct are that there are ''real'' Indians too.. people who are from India, people born to Indian parents. Haven't they the right to have their nation used in the name of a sports team, has anyone asked them ?


Yeah, I think they're more into cricket


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## Paco Dennis

Theodore Roosevelt: ‘The Only Good Indians Are the Dead Indians’​"Seventeen years earlier, Roosevelt, then a young widower, left New York in favor of the Dakotas, where he built a ranch, rode horses and wrote about life on the frontier. When he returned to the east, he famously assertedthat “the most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian.”
“I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are,” Roosevelt said during a January 1886 speech in New York. “And I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.”

‘The Only Good Indians Are the Dead Indians’


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## Alligatorob

Pepper said:


> Indigenous people of the United States have asked us not to call them insulting names. Some people resent not being supported in their wish to continue calling them insulting names. Most native americans live on crappy reservations, not wealthy casinos. They were put there. All they are asking for is some respect, but no, that's too much for some of you.


What do indigenous people consider insulting?  How do we know?  I have not seen the requests you are talking about can you point them out.  
I would like to show respect, have no feeling otherwise.  However what that means and what it should look like seems hard to figure out.  Too many different opinions on this.  

Hearing what a majority or consensus of indigenous people themselves think would help.


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## Verisure

Alligatorob said:


> Yes, it has always bothered me.  The "Yankees" killed many of my ancestors, destroyed much of their property, freed their slaves without compensation, and put a couple in prison for no reason but trying to protect what was theirs...
> 
> Though all of this is true,  I am being facetious about the name of course. Correcting mistakes of the past can be a real can of worms...


Yes, I find it strange that the flag of the southern states is now illegal but the stars and stripes is not.


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## Verisure

Pepper said:


> Just think about it:
> Indigenous people of the United States have asked us not to call them insulting names.  Some people resent not being supported in their wish to continue calling them insulting names.  Most native americans live on crappy reservations, not wealthy casinos.  They were put there.  All they are asking for is some respect, but no, that's too much for some of you.
> 
> My husband's family is indigenous to Canada.  If I remember, I'll ask my son to tell you off


Well said, dear Pepper!


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## Verisure

Paco Dennis said:


> Theodore Roosevelt: ‘The Only Good Indians Are the Dead Indians’​"Seventeen years earlier, Roosevelt, then a young widower, left New York in favor of the Dakotas, where he built a ranch, rode horses and wrote about life on the frontier. When he returned to the east, he famously assertedthat “the most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian.”
> “I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are,” Roosevelt said during a January 1886 speech in New York. “And I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.”
> 
> ‘The Only Good Indians Are the Dead Indians’


I heard the same sort of crap in Vietnam and I probably repeated some of it myself until I became an adult and began to understand life a bit better.


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## horseless carriage

hollydolly said:


> yes you have.. but don't think for one minute you're alone. Great Britain too is right there along with you where this  is concerned.


You're not wrong there, Holly. Do you remember a few years ago someone getting their knickers in a twist over the word, "Christmas?"
We can't have that, it's an insult to non Christian religions and to those who lead a secular life. No, no, no, we must replace it to be all encompassing.
"Happy Winterval."
Then some other micky taker said, "I'm from Australia, it's my summer, hell, I'm insulted."
Winterval was quietly swept under the carpet.


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## Paco Dennis

PLAYING HIPPIES AND INDIANS: ACTS OF CULTURAL COLONIZATION IN THE 
THEATRE OF THE AMERICAN COUNTERCULTURE

This comes from a PDF file and is a dissertation paper.

"In this dissertation, I examine the appropriation of Native American cultures and 
histories in the theatre of the American counterculture of the 1960s and seventies, using 
the Living Theatre’s Paradise Now, the street theatricals and broadsides of the San 
Francisco Diggers, and James Rado and Gerome Ragni’s Hair: The American Tribal-
Love Rock Musical as my primary case studies. Defining themselves by points of 
difference from mainstream America and its traditional social and cultural values, 
counterculturalists often attempted to align themselves with Native Americans in order to 
express an imagined sense of shared otherness. Representations of Natives on 
countercultural stages, however, were frequently steeped in stereotype, and they often 
depicted Native cultures inaccurately, elided significant tribal differences, and relegated 
Native identity almost wholly to the past, a practice that was particularly problematic in 
light of concurrent Native rights movements that were actively engaged in bringing 
national attention to the contemporary issues and injustices Native Americans faced on a 
daily basis."

Maybe "Dances with Wolves" was the first "Real" awakening about the genocide of the Indenginous Americans.?


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## Verisure

Alligatorob said:


> What do indigenous people consider insulting?  How do we know? ......... Hearing what a majority or consensus of indigenous people themselves think would help.


I agree but I think we know some of it already.


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## Paco Dennis

Verisure said:


> I heard the same sort of crap in Vietnam and I probably repeated some of it myself until I became an adult and began to understand life a bit better.



You would think! This was the leader of the free world! Yikes!


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## Verisure

horseless carriage said:


> .................... "Happy Winterval." Then some other micky taker said, "I'm from Australia, it's my summer, hell, I'm insulted."
> Winterval was quietly swept under the carpet.


I lived in Rhodesia in the mid-late 1970s. At Christmas time they would erect flat, plyboard fir trees in the park in the centre of Salisbury. They were painted green with white tips to signify snow. I don't know what the Africans thought about it but I thought it was very silly. Fir trees didn't grow in Rhodesia, it never snowed there and even if it would snow it wouldn't be in December. And then, of course, Christmas is supposed to honour the birth of Christ in Bethlehem where there certainly was no snow there either.


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## Alligatorob

Verisure said:


> I agree but I think we know some of it already.


I don't feel like I know of it, now with respect to indigenous American peoples anyway.  I can look out my window right now and see a very large I on the mountainside above me.  It is for the Intermountain Indian School (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hillside_letters_in_Utah and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermountain_Indian_School ).   The school has been closed for almost 40 years but someone still maintains that I.  Not sure who, I always assumed it was some of the graduates of the school.  Anyway I don't know that the I has created any ill feelings, never heard that it has.  Not that all of the people who went to the school had good experiences, I know many did not, but the Indian name is something else.

My touchstone for this is the N word, I grew up in the US south and heard the N word used freely, I used it.  And at first I was resistant to stopping, but now I understand that it is insulting to most black people to hear it, from whites anyway.  So out of respect I no longer use it, and don't like hearing others who do.  I just don't have anything close to that understanding of how indigenous people, most of them anyway, feel about being called Indians.  I know the name originated from Columbus' misunderstanding over 500 years ago, but I don't know that the word has been used as insulting or disrespectful.  It is not when I use it.


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## SeaBreeze

Pepper said:


> Just think about it:
> Indigenous people of the United States have asked us not to call them insulting names.  Some people resent not being supported in their wish to continue calling them insulting names.  Most native americans live on crappy reservations, not wealthy casinos.  They were put there.  All they are asking for is some respect, but no, that's too much for some of you.
> 
> My husband's family is indigenous to Canada.  If I remember, I'll ask my son to tell you off


Well said Pepper, I agree.  Little to ask to finally give some consideration to Native Americans who were killed and had their lands stolen from them, and are still being disrespected until this very day.  It's just a name, an easy way to rise above and show some respect.  Not going to get into politics here, but anyone who is unfamiliar with history, can just google Trail of Tears as a start.  That's all I have to say on the subject.


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## Pepper

A few years ago (five?) Whoopi Goldberg, on The View, asked non black viewers to not say the 'n' word.  Her people, said Whoopi, found it distressing.  She said more, but that is the gist.  It was a moment for me.  When a member of a group asks so sweetly not to do something, why should I do it?  What kind of schmuck would I be to use it?  Did I need the names of the exact black people, the amount of black people besides Whoopi before I took her word for it?  Nope.  Why not?  Because I'm not a dick.  I didn't need a survey or a poll of black folks to convince me.  One was enough.  Same goes here.  How about using the NYC Yids?  The NJersey Wops?  It is common sense and obvious we no longer do these things.  It's no longer apropos.  No big deal.  What's the inner need for using 'redskins', etc.  What's wrong with someone insisting they must use these terms?  Simple.  Dicks.


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## Verisure

Alligatorob said:


> I don't feel like I know of it, now with respect to indigenous American peoples anyway.  I can look out my window right now and see a very large I on the mountainside above me.  It is for the Intermountain Indian School (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hillside_letters_in_Utah and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermountain_Indian_School ).   The school has been closed for almost 40 years but someone still maintains that I.  Not sure who, I always assumed it was some of the graduates of the school.  Anyway I don't know that the I has created any ill feelings, never heard that it has.  Not that all of the people who went to the school had good experiences, I know many did not, but the Indian name is something else.
> 
> My touchstone for this is the N word, I grew up in the US south and heard the N word used freely, I used it.  And at first I was resistant to stopping, but now I understand that it is insulting to most black people to hear it, from whites anyway.  So out of respect I no longer use it, and don't like hearing others who do.  I just don't have anything close to that understanding of how indigenous people, most of them anyway, feel about being called Indians.  I know the name originated from Columbus' misunderstanding over 500 years ago, but I don't know that the word has been used as insulting or disrespectful.  It is not when I use it.


I don't think the term Indian is offensive to them, is it? Maybe I missed that detail in the discussion? I'm thinking more of calling all of them "Indian Joe" or "Chief" and "Indian giver" and assuming they live in "teepees" and smoke "peace pipes" when they want to be friends or make up with someone. Those sort of things.

On your other comment, it sure does irk me to hear black Americans using the "n-word" amongst themselves. I don't understand that at all. If the term is considered racist isn't it racist for anyone to use it?  And what about "honky"? Is that allowed by law? Yes, I can see that it is because I just spelled it out without needing to spell it the "H-word".


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## Alligatorob

Pepper said:


> NYC Yids? The NJersey Wops?


Never used those words so I don't know.  However to the best of my knowledge (admittedly limited) the term Indian did not originate as insulting and is not used that way.  It is also quite ingrained in our language, much more so than wop or yid or even the N word was.


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## Verisure

Pepper said:


> A few years ago (five?) Whoopi Goldberg, on The View, asked non black viewers to not say the 'n' word.  Her people, said Whoopi, found it distressing.  She said more, but that is the gist.  It was a moment for me.  When a member of a group asks so sweetly not to do something, why should I do it?  What kind of schmuck would I be to use it?  Did I need the names of the exact black people, the amount of black people besides Whoopi before I took her word for it?  Nope.  Why not?  Because I'm not a dick.  I didn't need a survey or a poll of black folks to convince me.  One was enough.  Same goes here.  How about using the NYC Yids?  The NJersey Wops?  It is common sense and obvious we no longer do these things.  It's no longer apropos.  No big deal.  What's the inner need for using 'redskins', etc.  What's wrong with someone insisting they must use these terms?  Simple.  Dicks.


I agree with you but it needs to be clear that neither whites nor blacks should be allowed to use that term ..... speaking of the law and what is legal, I mean. If some can and others not then the "N-word" ought to be reintroduced just to make a point.


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## Chet

horseless carriage said:


> You're not wrong there, Holly. Do you remember a few years ago someone getting their knickers in a twist over the word, "Christmas?"
> We can't have that, it's an insult to non Christian religions and to those who lead a secular life. No, no, no, we must replace it to be all encompassing.
> "Happy Winterval."
> Then some other micky taker said, "I'm from Australia, it's my summer, hell, I'm insulted."
> Winterval was quietly swept under the carpet.


For a while it was X-mas here but now it's just happy holidays.


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## Pepper

Well, @Alligatorob, I think once 'redskins' is gotten rid of, so should 'Indian', if only just by association.  

As for why non-whites should not use the 'n' word but it's ok if black people do, I say 'So what.'  Why should I care?


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## JustBonee

I grew up in  the Cleveland Indians, and Browns  territory  ...   

I guess the name  change is alright,  but seems like a lifetime ago that I lived and loved those teams.


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## Don M.

The Kansas City Chiefs have taken the "Arrowhead" sign on their large stadium scoreboard down....and some are demanding that the Chiefs change their nickname.  This "movement" just gets more silly, with every announcement.


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## Pepper

Verisure said:


> I agree with you but it needs to be clear that neither whites nor blacks should be allowed to use that term ..... speaking of the law and what is legal, I mean. If some can and others not then the "N-word" ought to be reintroduced just to make a point.


We don't do that.  Words are not illegal.  Their use is not illegal.  It's a choice, and it shows "you" as the person "you" are.


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## GAlady

Just think of all the small town elementary and high school teams that use the Indian logo.  My daughter,s son’s played Indian football and baseball In their town.  She said the town would never bear the expense of changing the name.


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## Alligatorob

GAlady said:


> Just think of all the small town elementary and high school teams that use the Indian logo.  My daughter,s son’s played Indian football and baseball In their town.  She said the town would never bear the expense of changing the name.


Its not a small thing, lots would have to change.  

I worked for the Forest Service back when the decision to take the N word off of maps and things was made.  I supported that, but it took a lot of changing and reprinting.  And a bit of awkwardness at first, getting used to saying "***** Creek" or Negrohead Rock".  Worth it in the end.


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## Alligatorob

Interesting that I was censored.  I did not use the bad N word.  It did allow negrohead, same word but with "head" added.  Do we have another n word to worry about?


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## Verisure

Pepper said:


> .................... As for why non-whites should not use the 'n' word but it's ok if black people do, I say 'So what.'  Why should I care?


.... because if racism on the community level concerns you then racism on the judicial level should concern you just as much, if not more. That is to say that if racial slurs against blacks, Indians, Asians, etc. is wrong/illegal then lawful racism against whites (by racial selection) ought to be equally wrong.


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## Verisure

Pepper said:


> We don't do that.  Words are not illegal.  Their use is not illegal.  It's a choice, and it shows "you" as the person "you" are.


I think it is a matter of law, actually. I do believe that you can be arrested for calling a black person some racial term, being considered an aggressive act ... no?


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## Pepper

It could be a 'Hate' crime, but that is recent and the word can be used freely not against someone, but in general.


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## Verisure

Pepper said:


> It could be a 'Hate' crime, but that is recent and the word can be used freely not against someone, but in general.


And a hate crime is illegal, right?


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## StarSong

GAlady said:


> Just think of all the small town elementary and high school teams that use the Indian logo.  My daughter,s son’s played Indian football and baseball In their town.  She said the town would never bear the expense of changing the name.


Eventually social pressure will force the change - likely the student body will come to demand it.  Children wake up far sooner than adults do.  

That something has been done for a long time has never been a good reason to continue.


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## Pepper

It depends, but right, it's on the books @Verisure


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## fmdog44

I think the former Redskins have decided to stay with their current name. Not sure. As far as the Guardians some are whining it too closely resembles Indians. We should change the name of our country from America to "Horrible People." Of course we would need to change our anthem to something more fitting of our current society and call it. "No Matter What You Do Or Say You Are Evil."


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## Irwin

I can understand why they might find the Cleveland Indians' logo a bit offensive:


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## Oris Borloff

Native American comedian Larry Omaha on the subject:

I've been asked if I'm offended by teams named Redskins I say no, not at all.  The only people that really have red skins are sun burned white people.  Keep the name. Change the mascot to a white guy laying on a beach towel.


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## Pepper

How do you say Step N Fetchit in Shawnee?


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## StarSong

Irwin said:


> I can understand why they might find the Cleveland Indians' logo a bit offensive:


Exactly.


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## AnnieA

Verisure said:


> I don't think the term Indian is offensive to them, is it? Maybe I missed that detail in the discussion? I'm thinking more of calling all of them "Indian Joe" or "Chief" and "Indian giver" and assuming they live in "teepees" and smoke "peace pipes" when they want to be friends or make up with someone. Those sort of things.



Indian isn't offensive here with Choctaw.  They use the formal term "Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians" and refer to themselves as both Choctaw and Indian in short form and Indian is in no way considered a slur to them if neighboring blacks and whites use it.  I also did research in MLIS grad school on several Native American library services and found pretty much the same ... Native Americans commonly use their tribal name and also Indian moreso than Native American.


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## horseless carriage

Verisure said:


> You are not being highly informative. The American Indian is indigenous to "the new world". In continental European languages there are two words denoting people from India and people from the Americas. In Swedish for example *Indier* (from India) and *Indian* (from the American continent).


_"You are not being highly informative." _You're right, I never was all that informative.
_ "The American Indian is indigenous to "the new world". _And there was me thinking that Indians lived in India, as they say, you live and learn.
_In continental European languages there are two words denoting people from India and people from the Americas._
In European English there were six words used back in the 1940's. What was it? 

_In Swedish for example *Indier, *from India and *Indian* from the American continent._
You can't trust the Swedes with the English language. You only have to look at the name of one their largest motor manufacturers.


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## Verisure

horseless carriage said:


> _"You are not being highly informative." _You're right, I never was all that informative.
> _ "The American Indian is indigenous to "the new world". _And there was me thinking that Indians lived in India, as they say, you live and learn.
> _In continental European languages there are two words denoting people from India and people from the Americas._
> In European English there were six words used back in the 1940's. What was it?
> 
> _In Swedish for example *Indier, *from India and *Indian* from the American continent._
> You can't trust the Swedes with the English language. You only have to look at the name of one their largest motor manufacturers.


Oh my, what part to take seriously and where to start?

* No, *American* Indians are .... wait for it ..... from the Americas. 
* There are six words in British English for "Indians"? I hope you are not including "West Indians" and ... and ... and .. what are the other ones?
* We don't speak English in Sweden, thank God. Otherwise, we'd never know which "Indians" we were talking about. Well, as I was saying, in Swedish an "Indier" is from India and an "Indian" comes from the Americas.


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## Alligatorob

StarSong said:


> Eventually social pressure will force the change - likely the student body will come to demand it. Children wake up far sooner than adults do.


You could be right, and its probably best for us to leave this one in the hands of the next generation.  They are pretty much in charge now, and hopefully wiser than us.

Have we beat this one to death?


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## terry123

It bothers me at Christmas when all the store folks say Happy Holidays when they used to say Merry Christmas!  I know they had to change due to PC now but I just smile, nod and go on my way.  Due to the virus I don't get out much any more so I won't be bothered.  Christmas is a special time for me because of my faith.  Its a daily thing really for me but I love the Christmas services at Church and the rituals I observe.  But again thats just me  Everybody has their own faith and traditions that I respect.  My way is not the only way.


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## Murrmurr

Cleveland Guardians. I like it!


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## Verisure

terry123 said:


> It bothers me at Christmas when all the store folks say Happy Holidays when they used to say Merry Christmas!  I know they had to change due to PC now but I just smile, nod and go on my way.  Due to the virus I don't get out much any more so I won't be bothered.  Christmas is a special time for me because of my faith.  Its a daily thing really for me but I love the Christmas services at Church and the rituals I observe.  But again thats just me  Everybody has their own faith and traditions that I respect.  My way is not the only way.


I was raised a Catholic but my parents weren't active so other than Christmas there was nothing to keep me in "the fold".


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## Pepper

Verisure said:


> And a hate crime is illegal, right?


Rarely.  It's usually made for other charges to stick.  People are rarely, if ever, tried for just calling someone a name, unless it is with threatening harm.


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## horseless carriage

Verisure said:


> Oh my, what part to take seriously and where to start?
> 
> 
> * There are six words in British English for "Indians"? I hope you are not including "West Indians" and ... and ... and .. what are the other ones?


Oh my, what part to take seriously and where to start?
None of it, all tongue in cheek.
"There are six words in British English for "Indians"? I hope you are not including "West Indians" and ... and ... and .. what are the other ones?"
Go back and read again. 
You said:  _In continental European languages there are two words denoting people from India and people from the Americas._
I said: In European English there were six words used back in the 1940's. What was it? 
Note, there was neither any mention or implication of Indian, as in indigenous tribes. The six words were all about the European settlers that became known as Americans. Their descendants were those soldiers who came to Britain, trained to a high level, invaded Nazi occupied France, many of whom now lay to rest in a European war grave and gave us a freedom that others around the world, envy.

We were rather rude with those six words, but they have passed into the historic lexicon: "Over sexed, over paid and over here.


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## Verisure

horseless carriage said:


> ...... "Over sexed, over paid and over here.


Oh, yes. I think Lord Haw-Haw may have contributed greatly to that theme.


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## 911

To be clear, using the “N” word is not illegal, period. You see, there is this thing called the First Amendment in the U.S. Constitution.

There are times when it could become illegal. For example: If anyone would use the word in a threatening manner like, “I’m going to beat the crap out of that ‘n—-r.” Then, the police could arrest and charge the individual with harassment or making a terroristic threat, but the second charge would be a reach. The D.A. *may* also add charges, depending on the circumstances. Since this ruling was handed down some 50 years ago by the U.S. Supreme Court when the KKK was charged for using the word, I am not aware if any further rulings were handed down.


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## ohioboy

The "N" word does not necessarily have to be used in a threatening manner to be illegal, but is a substantial element. Depending on the specific facts, it could be considered "Fighting words", which are not protected speech. Also, depending on the facts, it is protected speech. State Court rulings differ on the elements.


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## Victor

I don't care what they are called, as I dont live in Ohio.  How about the Stone Age Natives?


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## Verisure

How about the *"Cleveland Caries"* or the *"Cleveland Rocks"*?


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## Oris Borloff

I hadn't thought about Kansas City. 

How about the Perry Whites?       The stadium could be renamed Masthead.


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## Verisure

Oris Borloff said:


> I hadn't thought about Kansas City.
> 
> How about the Perry Whites?  .......


But he was from neither Cleveland nor Kansas City. He was from Metropolis.


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## Packerjohn

I'm on record for not liking politically correct people.  I think they are a bunch of crying sissies; always complaining and never really doing our society any good!


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## Verisure

Packerjohn said:


> I'm on record for not liking politically correct people.  I think they are a bunch of crying sissies; always complaining and never really doing our society any good!


I'm with you 100%. I'd like to know what *THEY* think they are accomplishing. If you find out before me be sure to tell me 'cause I just know it's going to be one hell of a hoot!


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## StarSong

Verisure said:


> I'm with you 100%. I'd like to know what *THEY* think they are accomplishing. If you find out before me be sure to tell me 'cause I just know it's going to be one hell of a hoot!


Since you asked... 

If not for "PC," people would still be using the N word and numerous other ugly terms designed specifically to denigrate various races and ethnicities. "Political Correctness" is a negative description for positive behavioral changes many of us willingly when someone says, "That term depicts me negatively, continues disrespectful stereotypes, or hurts my feelings." 

Other than to maintain the power of "You can't make me change my ways", why would anyone care what the flipping baseball team is called? If indigenous people find it disrespectful, that should be reason enough. Native populations in the US, Canada, Australia, Africa and numerous other places have been subjected to extraordinary levels of abuse over the past 500 years due to colonialism. They've been slaughtered and stripped of their lands, their lifestyles, their religions, and more. 

Is it too much for them to ask that we don't further dehumanize them by turning them into amusing mascots?


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## GAlady




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## Verisure

StarSong said:


> Since you asked...
> 
> *If not for "PC," people would still be using the N word* and numerous other ugly terms designed specifically to denigrate various races and ethnicities.


No, I disagree with this in the strongest terms. I am 74 years old, I have never used that term and I am fervently opposed to Political Correctness. I am in complete agreement with Packerjohn in post #87.


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## HarryHawk

They are leaving baseball to go into roller derby?

Cleveland Guardians Roller Derby


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## StarSong

Verisure said:


> No, I disagree with this in the strongest terms. I am 74 years old, I have never used that term and I am fervently opposed to Political Correctness. I am in complete agreement with Packerjohn in post #87.


Disagreeing won't alter the fact that the times, they are a changin'.


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## Verisure

StarSong said:


> Disagreeing won't alter the fact that the times, they are a changin'.


The times can change but when the message is put forward and good examples have been displayed for it then it is time to mellow it out and disperse it to the masses (in that mellow stage), not take it one step further and yet another step further until you become the force you were fighting against at the beginning of your quest.


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## Fyrefox

Now for me, the _Guardians _denote the _Guardians of the Galaxy.  _There may be copyright infringement issues here, and don’t mess with _Rocket Raccoon, _who doesn’t even like to be called a raccoon...


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## StarSong

Verisure said:


> The times can change but when the message is put forward and good examples have been displayed for it then it is time to mellow it out and disperse it to the masses (in that mellow stage), not take it one step further and yet another step further until you become the force you were fighting against at the beginning of your quest.


I see this as an issue of morality and empathy.   

If I realized some of my descriptive language was offensive to an entire culture, I would do whatever I could to stop that behavior.  It doesn't reduce me in the slightest to adapt to something as ultimately meaningless as a team name, or term used to refer to a race or ethnicity.  If nothing else, it's a matter of good manners.  

The trend is (thank heavens) moving away from team names that offend ethnic groups.


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## Packerjohn

I agree that getting rid of negative words toward some ethnic groups is a good thing but some things are going too far.  For example, throwing red paint or toppling a statute of General Andrew Jackson in the USA or Prime Minister John A. Macdonald in Canada going to solve anything?  George Washington was a slave owner.  Throw red paint on him?  I think not!  He was also the 1st President of the United States and all Americans need to know this and how their country came into being.  Same goes for that Boston Tea Party.  If the young people don't know their history they might think about a bunch of people sitting around and drinking tea.  They wouldn't know what "no representation, no taxation" meant to those people.  If you hide or deny your history, you are going to keep being wrong in your thinking.  We who know our history, all the good, the bad and the ugly can learn from it and hopefully we wouldn't make those mistakes again in the future.  Our history is there to teach us lessons.  Ignorance is not bliss.  Ignorance just leads to more and more stupidity from one generation to the next.


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## suds00

the new name will take a while to get used to.


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## fmdog44

Can't believe there are 98 hits on this subject.


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## Verisure

StarSong said:


> I see this as an issue of morality and empathy.
> 
> If I realized some of my descriptive language was offensive to an entire culture, I would do whatever I could to stop that behavior.  It doesn't reduce me in the slightest to adapt to something as ultimately meaningless as a team name, or term used to refer to a race or ethnicity.  If nothing else, it's a matter of good manners.
> 
> The trend is (thank heavens) moving away from team names that offend ethnic groups.


*EVERYTHING* offends ethnic groups if you want it to. What about short people? Shouldn't tall women begin dating short men so as not to offend those men of less physical stature? And why do really short women like to date tall men? Don't you think that also offends short men and destroys their self-conficence? The phrase _"Tall dark and handsome"_ ought to be banned from use don't you think so too? *It's a matter of good manners*.


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## jerry old

The Washington Orphans football team, where is this going to end.
I will return to my normal speech patterns; if i offend others, well, well that's just tough.
Good Manners? Phoooooo


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## Verisure

jerry old said:


> The Washington Orphans football team, where is this going to end.
> I will return to my normal speech patterns; if i offend others, well, well that's just tough.
> Good Manners? Phoooooo


Back to reality ... finally!


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## Irwin

Verisure said:


> *EVERYTHING* offends ethnic groups if you want it to. What about short people? Shouldn't tall women begin dating short men so as not to offend those men of less physical stature? And why do really short women like to date tall men? Don't you think that also offends short men and destroys their self-conficence? The phrase _"Tall dark and handsome"_ ought to be banned from use don't you think so too? *It's a matter of good manners*.


No. I'm tall, dark and ... well, two out of three ain't bad.


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## Verisure

Irwin said:


> No. I'm tall, dark and ... well, two out of three ain't bad.


I got _short_-changed. I only have the third one.


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