# Charles Manson.



## IKE (Nov 20, 2017)

Charles Manson has died of natural causes at age 83........Good Riddance !


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## rkunsaw (Nov 20, 2017)

He should have been executed in 1969


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## hollydolly (Nov 20, 2017)

rkunsaw said:


> He should have been executed in 1969




Agreed!! Just diabolical that the the decent law abiding tax paying American had to pay to keep this devil worshipping excrement alive all these years...may his soul rot in hell.


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## Gary O' (Nov 20, 2017)

Maybe a small consolation;
He had to live with himself…

Only thing, those folks don’t have much of a conscience or even a shred of moral sense

In another life, I had coffee with an acquaintance 
He could talk offing someone like we talk fishing, and in the same breath get angry over what the dry cleaners did to his slacks


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## terry123 (Nov 20, 2017)

He should have died like Sharon Tate died!


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## IKE (Nov 20, 2017)

rkunsaw said:


> He should have been executed in 1969



California Gov. Jerry Brown fairly recently estimated that it costs Calif. a bare minimum of $75,560.00 per year to house a prisoner......Manson was in prison for 48 years = $3,626,880.00

Even though the cost has risen, Texas now estimates that it still only costs $1300.00 (for the drugs alone) to execute a prisoner by lethal injection.

Just sayin'.


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## applecruncher (Nov 20, 2017)

Incredible that lunatic lived to age 83. Good riddance.

Btw $75,560 x 48 = $3,626,880.


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## Falcon (Nov 20, 2017)

YAY  !!!     A day to celebrate.


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## Don M. (Nov 20, 2017)

When there is irrefutable evidence to such a person's guilt, and the culprit even admits to it, I see NO reason why society should be obligated to "warehouse" these types at a huge cost every year.  It would seem far better to spend that money on honest people who need some help.


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 20, 2017)

You have to admit Charlie was Charlie right to the end. He didn't get religion, and become a minister. Then, at the parole hearing, have 8,000 "good Christians" sign a petition for granting parole.
Nope. Charlie wasn't going to share the spotlight with any god.


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## Marie5656 (Nov 20, 2017)

*My husband and I were discussing him and the girls this morning  There is NO excusing what they did because of their allegiance to this POS but we had to wonder WHAT drew them to him???   It was not his looks I doubt there was much in the way of charisma.  Stockholm Syndrome?  Something else?   Just so odd*


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 20, 2017)

Charlie went after very young girls, with lots of emotional baggage. It was a cult. Charlie systematically got the girls isolated. He gave them a "purpose". The girls  attracted dysfunctional  males with offer of free sex. Charlie always kept the 'family' isolated, and kept total control of them. They couldn't eat unless  he gave his permission.
(The DA ,Bugliosi wrote "Helter Skelter", a book about Manson.)


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

IKE said:


> California Gov. Jerry Brown fairly recently estimated that it costs Calif. a bare minimum of $75,560.00 per year to house a prisoner......Manson was in prison for 48 years = $3,626,880.00
> 
> Even though the cost has risen, Texas now estimates that it still only costs $1300.00 to execute a prisoner by lethal injection.
> 
> Just sayin'.



Your information is not correct. It costs far more to execute than it does to imprison.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/


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## Big Horn (Nov 20, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Your information is not correct. It costs far more to execute than it does to imprison.
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/


If we used the firing squad, we could auction the positions.  With around the world publicity, I bet we could easily get ten million, perhaps more, for any execution.


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## MarkinPhx (Nov 20, 2017)

Rolling Stone released an article online that was originally published in June of 1970 : http://www.rollingstone.com/culture...tory-of-the-most-dangerous-man-alive-19700625


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## oldman (Nov 20, 2017)

California has a fair number of serial killers sitting on death row. The one that I find most despicable is Rodney Alcala, a.k.a. "The Dating Game Killer."


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

_Charles Manson: The Incredible Story of the Most Dangerous Man Alive?_ I doubt that was true even in 1970. There are too many serial killers who killed more people, not to mention Jeffrey McDonald who killed his wife and two daughters because one of his daughters wet the bed. That's what I call dangerous.


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## Marie5656 (Nov 20, 2017)

I wonder if he was considered ""most dangerous" because of his ability to get others to do his will?  He personally did not Kill but that made him no less guilty


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

Maybe, Marie. They may have felt he had the potential to kill many more people than he did. 

People I consider truly dangerous are the predator-psychopaths who go on killing for 40 years or more. Charlie was too crazy and deranged to be a cold-blooded killer like those guys are. He wanted everyone to know what he did.


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## IKE (Nov 20, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Your information is not correct. It costs far more to execute than it does to imprison.
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/



I got my slightly (2012) dated info below........the $1300.00 per execution is referring to the cost of the drugs alone.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/lethal-injection_n_1391408-html


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

I figured that's what the $1300 was about. That's a very high price but I understand some of their earlier sources have refused to sell the drugs when they found out they were going to be used to kill people. They probably have to pay top dollar.

It's false equivalence to only talk about the cost of execution drugs. If you're going to talk about how much it costs to incarcerate someone as long as Manson, it seems only honest to talk about the total price of execution, and that also includes years of incarceration beforehand.


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## AZ Jim (Nov 20, 2017)

Go straight to hell manson, you coward!


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## Kadee (Nov 20, 2017)

We call people like him a wasted space ,What a waste of money keeping him alive all those years .....
money that could have helped homeless or under privileged people


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## Denise1952 (Nov 20, 2017)

I still think there is a lot to be said for "let the punishment" fit the crime.  If more people failed to get away with crime, fewer crimes (I think) would happen.  Many believe they won't get caught, but more I think, don't worry if they do.  Because they are miserable, or sick to begin with, and the worse they see is prison.  I may be wrong, but our prisons today, are a lot more cushy than in "days gone by".


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## tnthomas (Nov 20, 2017)

Goodbye Charlie.   Inmate workers clean his cell, the correctional officer escorts another body to be housed there.   Life goes on at California State Prison in Corcoran


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## Anomaly 73 (Nov 20, 2017)

I think, when a person is proven guilty of heinous crimes (mass murder with malice)...they should be chained up in a room with their victim's family and those people should be allowed to do anything they like. If that lowers us to their level...so be it.


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## Falcon (Nov 20, 2017)

I like the idea of  _Water Boarding_  as punishment  for these crazy  killers.

To be done  several times a day/ week/  month etc.  Middle of the night, or noon, or first thing in the morning.

Keep  'em  guessing.   Serve em right.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 20, 2017)

Denise1952 said:


> I still think there is a lot to be said for "let the punishment" fit the crime.  If more people failed to get away with crime, fewer crimes (I think) would happen.  Many believe they won't get caught, but more I think, don't worry if they do.  Because they are miserable, or sick to begin with, and the worse they see is prison.  I may be wrong, but our prisons today, are a lot more cushy than in "days gone by".



The prisoners I've talked to about it have unanimously said life without parole is worse than being executed. They said it's the prospect of all those long years stretching ahead locked up in a gray prison cell with nothing ever changing.


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## RadishRose (Nov 20, 2017)

What about Leslie Van Houton who stabbed the La Bianca's to death at her age of 19?
 In Sept. of this this year, 

"_ The youngest member of *Charles Manson*'s murderous family went before a parole panel for the 21st time ... and took a big step toward being released. 

__*Leslie Van Houten* -- now 68 years old -- was granted  parole suitability at a hearing at the California Institution for Women  in Corona, CA Wednesday. That doesn't mean she's out, but it's a big  step toward that._
_There's a 5-month process in which all of her records will be  reviewed and the file will then go to Governor Jerry Brown, who can  either uphold the parole recommendation, reverse it or modify it.

_
_She shouldn't get her hopes up ... last year the Board made the same recommendation and Brown nixed it.

_
_As we reported ... Van Houten was equipped with a *13-page report* saying she was immature and brainwashed by Manson as a 19-year-old when she stabbed and murdered *Leno* and *Rosemary LaBianca*_."

https://www.tmz.com/2017/09/06/leslie-van-houten-parole-bid-manson-family-killer/

Should we continue to pay her keep or let her out, finally to earn her own living?


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## Giantsfan1954 (Nov 20, 2017)

Scott Peterson is another "innocent"POS California is hosting,Jeffrey McDonald was baf but this scum bucket chose Christmas for his deeds,thereby ruining it for her family forever.
Not to be outdone,here in New York we're hosting David Berkowitz,AKA,Son of Sam,of course he's found Jesus and is now a minister...


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## tnthomas (Nov 20, 2017)

I've worked in jails, worked in a prison...wouldn't call either "cushy" by any means.    Having your freedom taken from you, that is the worst.   The food sucks, despite the fact that a certified Registered Dietitian Nutritionist has meticulously designed  the menu.

If a society just wants to throw away everyone who is sent to prison(maybe your son or daughter, or maybe you) then why don't we just shoot them all, the moment that the judge imposes the sentence.   That would be cheaper, and I'm sure would please certain folks here.

*Unless*, it was  your son or daughter, or maybe you.     No more Martha Stewart!

I'm not against the death penalty, but I'm not _for it_ either.   Some people just need to be executed for the collective "good" of society. ..people like the mass murderer Timothy McVeigh. 

   There are 747 death row inmates in California.    I bet that the overwhelming majority of them are guilty of the crime that they are convicted of, and should be put to death.

One time after returning a verdict in a criminal trial, the judge invited us(the jury) to join in a discussion in the judge's chambers, with the prosecutor and the defense attorney.   The defense attorney mentioned that around 3 % of criminal defendants sent to prison are innocent, and had been wrongly prosecuted.  That was 1987.    In recent times it is estimated that out of 100 people sentenced to death, 4 are innocent.  And, out of that 100 only 2 typically get exonerated.   So, about 2% of executed people are innocent.

The death penalty is popular with the masses, but the death penalty cost more to society than does "life without".


Manson "should have" been executed, but he wasn't.   It didn't matter, either way.   The family of the victims never get closure by an execution.  The pain does not automatically stop.


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## Ruthanne (Nov 20, 2017)

RIP.  He was a real sick one.


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## RadishRose (Nov 20, 2017)

Giantsfan1954 said:


> Scott Peterson is another "innocent"POS California is hosting,Jeffrey McDonald was baf but this scum bucket chose Christmas for his deeds,thereby ruining it for her family forever.
> Not to be outdone,here in New York we're hosting David Berkowitz,AKA,Son of Sam,of course he's found Jesus and is now a minister...



A minister????

I thought he was really mentally ill.....


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## Giantsfan1954 (Nov 20, 2017)

Dont recall the channel,A&E maybe,had a documentary on him,I think it was 40 years since his killings,yup,he's some kind of minister....good friend,retired correction just rolls his eyes,says they do that,it gets them out of their cells.


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## Don M. (Nov 20, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> Your information is not correct. It costs far more to execute than it does to imprison.http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/



That's because our present judicial system is so heavily biased in favor of the criminal.  Plus, lawyers can get rich defending these slugs with endless appeals.  When there is NO doubt about the guilt, there is NO sensible reason to drag these appeals on for years...or decades.  There isn't much that I agree with in the Islamic world....but their treatment of a murderer makes a lot more sense than what we do....they hold the trial on Monday, and the execution on Tuesday.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 21, 2017)

The judicial system is required to adhere to constitutional law, and that's where the appeals process comes from. I've known quite a few lawyers who do death penalty appeals work. Never met one who got rich doing it.

tntthomas, where it all goes off the rails is at trial level. There's no such thing as fair trials for the poor in this country. Those who can buy the best lawyers prevail at trial. It's especially heinous in small towns where judges tend to appoint some local drunk lawyer who happens to be hanging around the courthouse looking for business. He can't keep it together for a successful law practice and he has little or no money for staff or trial research. I had a job where I had to read trial transcripts. I highly recommend trial transcripts to anyone who believes the U.S. legal system is in any way functional. 

Remember OJ Simpson? There was a reason they destroyed Mark Furhman's credibility as a witness; he knew where at least some of the bodies were buried in that case which was set up to exonerate Simpson. Too bad Fuhrman was such a POS because he might have built a real case against Simpson.

Rich people go free or with a shortened sentence. Poor people get the death penalty. It's rarely untrue. Years ago I read some research that said the death penalty is weighted according to who you kill. A poor black guy who kills a rich white guy is on his way to death row. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Kill a poor woman or your own wife and kids? No biggie. Maybe 10 years and you're out.

Another murderer who became a minister in prison is Tex Watson, the leader of Manson's team of killers.


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## Butterfly (Nov 21, 2017)

Don M. said:


> When there is irrefutable evidence to such a person's guilt, and the culprit even admits to it, I see NO reason why society should be obligated to "warehouse" these types at a huge cost every year.  It would seem far better to spend that money on honest people who need some help.



I agree, Don.  Seems like a waste of taxpayer money to me.


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## Butterfly (Nov 21, 2017)

Denise1952 said:


> I still think there is a lot to be said for "let the punishment" fit the crime.  If more people failed to get away with crime, fewer crimes (I think) would happen.  Many believe they won't get caught, but more I think, don't worry if they do.  Because they are miserable, or sick to begin with, and the worse they see is prison.  I may be wrong, but our prisons today, are a lot more cushy than in "days gone by".



Well I would not remotely describe our New Mexico prisons as cushy by any stretch -- they are spare, stark, grim and generally abysmal -- and they we've got our prison gangs to make them even more inviting.  

If I were looking at the rest of my life inside one of our prisons, especially in solitary, I would FAR, FAR rather die quickly and get it over with.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 21, 2017)

I've seen the meals they serve in those "cushy" prisons. A slice of cheap bologna that's so thin you could read through it (if you can read, which isn't a given) on white bread that's so stale the edges curl up. About 1/4 teaspoon mustard in the center. Canned beans, usually served lukewarm. Maybe a piece of carrot or celery that's been out for hours until it's limp. Coffee the color of dishwater.

Yeah, luxe accommodations.


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## Robusta (Nov 21, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> I've seen the meals they serve in those "cushy" prisons. A slice of cheap bologna that's so thin you could read through it (if you can read, which isn't a given) on white bread that's so stale the edges curl up. About 1/4 teaspoon mustard in the center. Canned beans, usually served lukewarm. Maybe a piece of carrot or celery that's been out for hours until it's limp. Coffee the color of dishwater.
> 
> Yeah, luxe accommodations.




The human being is an amazingly adaptable animal. That is the reason we are the prime organism on Earth.  Once a person accepts within him that prison is his world, he becomes as one.
He still has a society, friends, routines, and customs.
The only inmates that are miserable with their situation are the ones with short sentences,where they can see daylight and an end.
The lifers know that they are not going any where so they act just as you do and build a place for themselves within the confines of their society.
Some become businessmen and control the clandestine prison market, some become counselors or jailhouse lawyers, some enforcers or soldiers.
Prison is a society within itself, one that doesn't necessarily jive with what we would consider normal,but a society and hierarchy nonetheless. 

To be sure any inmate including the lifers will speak wistfully of the outside, but in reality, after a decade or so, "freedom, the street" is nothing more than an abstract concept. It has been shown time and time again and that many long term inmates are unable or unwilling to navigate open society.

As much as the more civilized and genteel among us may protest, vengeance is part and parcel of justice, and with some criminals vengeance is the only consideration they deserve.

Manson was a prime example of this and the State of California failed in its duty to the greater society.


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## JaniceM (Nov 21, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> A minister????
> 
> I thought he was really mentally ill.....



Seems to be a common thing-  either becoming 'ministers' or 'born-again'-  http://www.aboundinglove.org/main/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1129067.Child_of_Satan_Child_of_God


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## Denise1952 (Nov 21, 2017)

I don't know anything about prisons other than rumors, or maybe an article here and there.  But I do know a woman who's son is in prison.  One thing I do know is that he uses the phone every day, and on a regular basis He can use some program like Skype.  He also, both he and a buddy in prison, are able to sign up on dating sites.  The son now has a girlfriend that visits him regularly.  I don't know if that's only certain prisoners that have these freedoms, but this boy is not eligible for parole, and his sentence won't allow him out for another 25 years.  I think the total included the 25 plus he's been in there I think at the least, 10 years.

One thing that has always worried me is how many innocent people are put in prison.  I don't know if Shawshank Redemption was from a true story, or truth-based.  

I'll stick with my belief in the punishment fitting the crime.  But that would happen only in a perfect world.


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## RadishRose (Nov 21, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> Seems to be a common thing-  either becoming 'ministers' or 'born-again'-  http://www.aboundinglove.org/main/
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1129067.Child_of_Satan_Child_of_God



I forgot all about Susan Atkins book, I had meant to read it, but never did. I did read Helter Skelter and The Family years and years ago.


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## tnthomas (Nov 21, 2017)

Smiling Jane said:


> The judicial system is required to adhere to constitutional law, and that's where the appeals process comes from. I've known quite a few lawyers who do death penalty appeals work. Never met one who got rich doing it.
> 
> tntthomas, where it all goes off the rails is at trial level. There's no such thing as fair trials for the poor in this country. Those who can buy the best lawyers prevail at trial. It's especially heinous in small towns where judges tend to appoint some local drunk lawyer who happens to be hanging around the courthouse looking for business. He can't keep it together for a successful law practice and he has little or no money for staff or trial research. I had a job where I had to read trial transcripts. I highly recommend trial transcripts to anyone who believes the U.S. legal system is in any way functional.
> 
> ...



I agree with what you're saying.

There is a series on Netflix called Confession Tapes,  true stories of how people's lives get caught up in the  investigation & adjudication process.

Not just realistic, but real.  I watch the programs while exercising on my elliptical.  I wouldn't call the series "entertaining"....more like disturbing and chilling.


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## 911 (Nov 21, 2017)

Pennsylvania hasn’t executed an inmate since 1999 (I believe.) I don’t know how many we have sitting on death row. The last I knew it was well over 2000. Another Trooper and myself have escorted a few prisoners from county jails or prisons to death row, which right now is only in Rockview Prison, which is not far from Penn State. It’s no Holiday Inn.The prisoner is alone in his cell for 23 hours a day, which I think measures 6’x9’.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 21, 2017)

tnthomas said:


> I agree with what you're saying.
> 
> There is a series on Netflix called Confession Tapes,  true stories of how people's lives get caught up in the  investigation & adjudication process.
> 
> Not just realistic, but real.  I watch the programs while exercising on my elliptical.  I wouldn't call the series "entertaining"....more like disturbing and chilling.



Yes, I've watched Confession Tapes and it's definitely chilling. It's the difference between wanting the guilty brought to justice and having a good arrest record. They are not the same thing.


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## Butterfly (Nov 22, 2017)

RadishRose said:


> A minister????
> 
> I thought he was really mentally ill.....



The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . .


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## Butterfly (Nov 22, 2017)

Don M. said:


> That's because our present judicial system is so heavily biased in favor of the criminal.  *Plus, lawyers can get rich defending these slugs with endless appeals*.  When there is NO doubt about the guilt, there is NO sensible reason to drag these appeals on for years...or decades.  There isn't much that I agree with in the Islamic world....but their treatment of a murderer makes a lot more sense than what we do....they hold the trial on Monday, and the execution on Tuesday.



I worked in the office of an attorney who was appointed to do a lot of these appeals, and believe me, there's not a lot of money in it.  Perhaps if the attorney is doing an appeal for a wealthy client, who can afford to pay, but most certainly not in court appointed appeals paid for by the state for those who can't afford it, and there's a HUGE amount of work involved.  Part of the reason appeals drag on for so long is that is takes the appellate courts so long to rule, but then they are overburdened, too.  And part of it is that most criminal attorneys do not do appeals, and they are farmed out to appellate specialists because it's a whole different ball game than trial work, and there are not a whole lot of appellate specialists.

I do strongly believe that everyone is entitled to due process, and that includes appeals.  I don't know what the answer is.  It would help, I think, if we had a "life" sentence that REALLY meant life in prison with no possibility.

New Mexico no longer has the death penalty, but we do have two people up on death row whose crimes were committed before the death penalty was abolished here and whose appeals, last time I heard, are still ongoing.


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## Sunny (Nov 22, 2017)

I watched several episodes of Confession Tapes, tnthomas, and intend to watch more. Truly chilling. Some of the prosecutors will stop at nothing to boost their record of convictions, even if they are framing an innocent person.

About the death penalty, I might have been more in favor of it before all those people were released from prison after DNA testing became available, and proved them innocent beyond any doubt. Many of the black inmates in Texas prisons were let go. There is a racial component, and also an economic one (often the same thing).  Executing even one innocent person is one too many!'

I can hardly imagine any punishment worse than life without parole. And at least, if definite proof turns up that they are innocent, they can still salvage what's left of the rest of their life.


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## RadishRose (Nov 22, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . .



You're right!


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 22, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . .



In fact…


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## JaniceM (Nov 22, 2017)

Butterfly said:


> I worked in the office of an attorney who was appointed to do a lot of these appeals, and believe me, there's not a lot of money in it.  Perhaps if the attorney is doing an appeal for a wealthy client, who can afford to pay, but most certainly not in court appointed appeals paid for by the state for those who can't afford it, and there's a HUGE amount of work involved.  Part of the reason appeals drag on for so long is that is takes the appellate courts so long to rule, but then they are overburdened, too.  And part of it is that most criminal attorneys do not do appeals, and they are farmed out to appellate specialists because it's a whole different ball game than trial work, and there are not a whole lot of appellate specialists.
> 
> I do strongly believe that everyone is entitled to due process, and that includes appeals.  I don't know what the answer is.  It would help, I think, if we had a "life" sentence that REALLY meant life in prison with no possibility.
> 
> New Mexico no longer has the death penalty, but we do have two people up on death row whose crimes were committed before the death penalty was abolished here and whose appeals, last time I heard, are still ongoing.



If your state abolished the death penalty, wouldn't that mean the individuals now have life sentences?  That's what happened to Manson and the others with the Supreme Court decision in 1972.


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## Butterfly (Nov 22, 2017)

JaniceM said:


> If your state abolished the death penalty, wouldn't that mean the individuals now have life sentences?  That's what happened to Manson and the others with the Supreme Court decision in 1972.



Nope; _Furman v. Georgia_ in the Supreme Court in 1972 abolished all capital punishment in the US, but the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976 (in the case of _Gregg v. Georgia_).  New Mexico reinstated the death penalty in 1979.  New Mexico didn't abolish the death penalty until 2009, and under our state law the death penalty was abolished for crimes having been committed after the date of abolishment (July 1, 2009), and was not made retroactive.  Thus those sentenced to death for crimes committed after 1979 and before July 1, 2009 are still under a death sentence.  This  situation has been litigated here _ad nauseum_, but it is the way our law on the matter is written.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 22, 2017)

It was a compromise in the legislature; very bad senseless law.


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## Butterfly (Nov 23, 2017)

Ther's a movement in our legislature to reinstate the death penalty. It gets bogged down, then rears its head again.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 23, 2017)

It comes from the prosecutor living in the governor's mansion, Butterfly. She loves the death penalty.


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## Butterfly (Nov 24, 2017)

I'm not entirely sure the death penalty does not have its applications -- for instance in the case of little Victoria Martens here, who was raped by mother's boyfriend with the assistance of mother, the cousin of  the boyfriend, then stabbed, dismembered and partially burned in the apartment's bathtub. 

Reported by the Albuquerque Journal, Aug 25, 2016:

"Young Victoria Martens’ dismembered body was burning in the bathtub,  half-wrapped in a blanket. Parts of her body were found in a plastic bag  in a laundry hamper, and the floor of her bedroom was stained with  blood.

Three people, including the girl’s mother, are accused in  the killing. Victoria’s mother, Michelle Martens, 35, faces multiple  charges including child abuse resulting in great bodily harm or death,  along with her new boyfriend, Fabian Gonzales, 31, and his cousin  Jessica Kelley, 31, who had just been released from prison.
Both  Martens and Gonzales told investigators they met only about a month ago  on a dating website. Gonzales told reporters and police that he wasn’t  involved in the crime, putting the blame on Kelley.

But Martens  told investigators that she watched as Gonzales and Kelley injected  Victoria with methamphetamine “to calm her down” so they could both  sexually assault her. She said Gonzales then strangled her and Kelley  stabbed her.

The two of them dismembered the girl’s body, according to Martens’ statement to police.

“This  homicide is the most gruesome act of evil I have ever seen in my  career,” said Police Chief Gorden Eden. It’s “a complete disregard of  human life and betrayal by a mother.”

Albuquerque police spokesman  Tanner Tixier choked up as he said the girl’s body was so mutilated  that investigators are not sure how she died. They believe she died  either from the strangulation or stab wounds, but are waiting for an  autopsy to be completed."


These charming people are, as I understand it, still in custody awaiting trial on $1,000,000 bond.  These people should NEVER be allowed free again. *NEVER!   *I wouldn't mind the death penalty being applied in this case if it were legal, which it isn't.


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## Big Horn (Nov 24, 2017)

These three are absolute monsters who should be killed.


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## Big Horn (Nov 24, 2017)

duplicate


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## fuzzybuddy (Nov 24, 2017)

I lived through the murders and the trials. It was always the lead story on TV. And I read Mr. Bugliosi's book, "Helter Skelter". There's something about Charlie that gets to people. He an 83, dead murderer, but he got 58 of you to comment about him. There are just so many weird aspects. Charlie was convinced the Beatles were sending him coded messages about a coming racial war. Blacks were going to kill all Whites. Charlie was going to live in a hole in the desert. When the killing was all over. The Blacks would beg Charlie to lead them. His family would repopulate the White Race. Charlie and the family were saviors of the White Race. Blackie was too stupid to start their own race war, Charlie had to help them start it.  But what he needed was confirmation from the Beatles. What did the Beatles do? They released their "White Album".
There is something evil, but yet fascinating about Manson.


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## 911 (Nov 24, 2017)

*"Manson "should have" been executed, but he wasn't. It didn't matter, either way. The family of the victims never get closure by an execution. The pain does not automatically stop."

*Most family members that have wanted the defendant that was found guilty of killing a family member have said that it's not about getting closure, it's about getting justice. For example; "He took my brother's life, so he should die also." 

Over my 37 years as a State Policeman, I have seen some pretty gruesome and horrific sites. Everything from a gunshot wound to the head, to multiple knife wounds, to a dismembered body. Dead is dead, but the degree of brutality has sometimes ruined my day. Like one poster has already stated, there are some killers that just need to be put to death. With DNA testing being used today to assist with finding the true murderer, I am more inclined to go with it. But, then again it always depends on the totality of the case. At least for me it does. 

Here in PA, we had a case where a boyfriend/girlfriend killed the girl's parents using a shotgun. While asleep, Daddy took one to the face and Mommy was next with two shots, one to the chest and one to the side of the head. The father's side of the family wanted the daughter to be given life w/o parole, which here in PA, life is always w/o parole, but the mother's side wanted the daughter to be put to death. Both kids were 17 and 16, so the death penalty was off the table. But this gives you an example of how people think differently. I was a uniformed Trooper at the time, so I was not involved in the investigation. I was there just to help secure the crime scene. Worse part for me is the smell. 
*
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## Smiling Jane (Nov 24, 2017)

I spent some years in support groups with other families of victims. Some few of them chose forgiveness, but I have to say most of them wanted revenge. They could call it justice all they liked, but it was pure and simple revenge they were after, administered by the state.

I think what has always bothered me were those people who, when DNA testing determined the convicted person had not murdered their loved one, still wanted him to die and sometimes actively campaigned for that to happen. That person had become the focus of their revenge and no official exoneration was going to make them change their minds. It's hard to make any sense of it because I can't imagine how you could possibly get any closure if an innocent person got put to death, but it's an emotional response and has nothing to do with logic. I think they probably wanted anything that might ease their suffering, but that won't ever happen. Their loved one is dead and isn't coming back no matter how many people go to prison or are executed for it. A very public example of that was the Amanda Knox case. Meredith Kercher's family still want Amanda Knox to be imprisoned in Italy, no matter that it has been proved conclusively and ruled by the Italian Supreme Court that Knox did not murder Kercher. The Kercher family has never seemed to be especially interested in the actual murderer because their entire focus was on Amanda Knox.

After an execution, family members have said it didn't do a thing to alleviate their suffering, no matter how much they had hoped it would. I remember reading an interview with a man whose family member was killed by Tim McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing. The man witnessed McVeigh's execution, hoping he would break down, cry, or beg for forgiveness. Instead McVeigh stared at the ceiling the entire time, showed no emotion and never wavered. The man was devastated because he saw someone die and did not get the emotional release he desperately wanted.

I know it's hard not to be bloodthirsty when you watch the news and hear the drumbeat "brutally murdered" many thousands of times. Hopefully I would be among the Romans who refused to go to the Coliseum and if I were forced to be there, I would give a thumbs-up to acquit the gladiator. Killing people does not ever bring anyone back from the dead.


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## tnthomas (Nov 24, 2017)

Re: revenge-" While seeking revenge, best to dig two graves - one for yourself." 
Author: unknown


Forgiveness for the murderer of a loved one is _inconceivable_ to me.  Some people can achieve that, that would be my shortcoming.

"Rot in prison" would be sufficient to bring me a sense of justice.   The murderer will ultimately answer for his/her crime before God.


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## Big Horn (Nov 24, 2017)

I have a better one: _*NEVER FORGIVE; NEVER FORGET.*_


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## 911 (Nov 24, 2017)

OK, so I think this is turning into a debate of should we have the death penalty. Maybe yes, maybe no. I also don't want to sound like a know-it-all. Sometimes when people are involved in an occupation that deals with the subject, other people do sometimes believe that to be true. That's not me, but I do have some knowledge and experience with this issue having witnessed two executions; one here in PA and one on Florida on behalf of the Commonwealth as a witness (long story). 

I don't disagree with anyone's points of view. I will say that I am probably more on Thomas's side when it comes to forgiving, if one of my family members were to be murdered. Forgiving would probably be impossible and it has to hurt like Hell. I have seen people suffer greatly and go into some really deep depression. My heart and soul cries for them. 

As for whether people are being disingenuous when they say they want the murderer to be put to death, so that they may have justice for their loved one, I have looked people in the eye when they told me that they were seeking justice and for some, that may be true that they were just trying to 'con', me, but I also believe that there are those that are being truthful. Personally, I don't know how I would react, or what I would ask the Prosecutor to seek. I think it would depend on the brutality and the situation. I would have to look at the whole picture.  

Anyway, I have said my peace. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## Smiling Jane (Nov 24, 2017)

911, I never felt anyone I knew was trying to run a con. I think people genuinely confuse justice and revenge.

tnthomas, I wasn't in those support groups because I was a group leader or a therapist. 'Nuff said. I don't want to get into it. What I will say is that if I was able to forgive, I figure it can't be that complicated.


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