# What would have happened if a U.S. pilot had been captured and burned alive?



## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Methinks boots would be on the ground by now and and a total effort would be approved by Congress to wipe out ISIS.  In short, the country would demand a full response and that would include you...


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## Ken N Tx (Feb 9, 2015)

Sad to say I do not believe it would have happened that way..


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## rkunsaw (Feb 9, 2015)

Obama wouldn't let it interrupt his golf game. After the game he'd blame Bush, or Christians, anybody but Moslems.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Obama wouldn't let it interrupt his golf game. After the game he'd blame Bush, or Christians, anybody but Moslems.



What a load of hooey....   Did you learn that on FOX?


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## Josiah (Feb 9, 2015)

The nation would convulse into paroxysms of rage. There would be widespread sentiment for an all out attack on ISIS and I would rather have no drama Obama as my President than any other person I can think of. Rage is not the best motivator of wise decisions.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> The nation would convulse into paroxysms of rage. There would be widespread sentiment for an all out attack on ISIS and I would rather have no drama Obama as my President than any other person I can think of. Rage is not the best motivator of wise decisions.



Exactly... and what amazes me... is that when it comes to President Obama... rk seems to like Moslims  a whole lot better... even idolizes them I must say..  lol!!  BUT then again, if Satan himself told them he was better than Obama, the right would be lining up at the gates of Hell..


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## Debby (Feb 9, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Obama wouldn't let it interrupt his golf game. After the game he'd blame Bush, or Christians, anybody but Moslems.



Now that's a little silly don't you think?  He would most likely be angry at the violent, fanatic perpetrators, not 'Moslems'.


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## Jackie22 (Feb 9, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> The nation would convulse into paroxysms of rage. There would be widespread sentiment for an all out attack on ISIS and I would rather have no drama Obama as my President than any other person I can think of. Rage is not the best motivator of wise decisions.



Me too, Josiah, he has always dealt with problems with intelligence and a cool head.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> Me too, Josiah, he has always dealt with problems with intelligence and a cool head.



Yes.... Heaven forbid we should have a person with intelligence lead us...   Just look at the Republican bench for 2016!!


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## Jackie22 (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes.... Heaven forbid we should have a person with intelligence lead us...   Just look at the Republican bench for 2016!!



Lol...I agree.


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Pilots were captured, I believe it was during the Carter ad. Us went in, big sand storm lost a bunch of people, copters. Etc.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Pilots died but we're not captured...


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## rt3 (Feb 9, 2015)

Why did they go in?


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 9, 2015)

A rescue attempt...


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2015)

I laud Jordan for stepping up and "getting into the game" as it were.  
With Jordan now responding, I note that other Arab nations are stepping up as well.
This was definitely needed.  No "boots" [ as yet, anyway ], but much air power.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I laud Jordan for stepping up and "getting into the game" as it were.
> With Jordan now responding, I note that other Arab nations are stepping up as well.
> This was definitely needed.  No "boots" [ as yet, anyway ], but much air power.



Agree... 

My disgust is with the OP and the obvious jab at our President..  It seems the Right will just praise anyone... rather than  their own President.  What is it with the right and always wanting to invade, bomb, and start new wars to get our young men and women killed?   It's a fascination that would soon dwindle if it were THEM.. or their kids going to war.    Bunch of Chicken Hawks.


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## BobF (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Agree...
> 
> My disgust is with the OP and the obvious jab at our President..  It seems the Right will just praise anyone... rather than  their own President.  What is it with the right and always wanting to invade, bomb, and start new wars to get our young men and women killed?   It's a fascination that would soon dwindle if it were THEM.. or their kids going to war.    Bunch of Chicken Hawks.



Not so true at all about out forces.   First, they are of all persuasions, all religions or none, all parts of the US, all volunteers for a number of years that I can remember.    Are they willing to stand for the US in spite of the threats and dangers?   Yes!!!

Our President deserves those jabs, maybe on day they will get him to make a real decision and actually help the US to stay safe.    Some of his not so smart ideas was selling off our space ships that could and did exchange crews at the space stations.   Today we are depending on Russia's little space thing to bring back our astronauts.    At the same time we are arguing with Russia over their expansions into neighboring countries.   Not a smart move of Obama as Russia could just not support the space station any more just as cruelly as they act when expanding their borders.   Obama had some good ideas I suppose, Obama care was not one of them either.    Obama has really increased the government debt with that move also.   There are other ways to insure medical coverage and costs.   Likely a mixture of ideas would have been better.   My medical care is costing more than before so where is the benefit.   Obama needs more that an obvious jab, he needs many and fortunately he will be replaced in less than two years.   I think just about anyone from either party will do better for the US than someone whose only interest is changing into a non Constitutional type of government he has put into place.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

rkunsaw said:


> Obama wouldn't let it interrupt his golf game. After the game he'd blame Bush, or Christians, anybody but Moslems.



Is that just more throw away rubbish?


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Agree...
> 
> My disgust is with the OP and the obvious jab at our President..  It seems the Right will just praise anyone... rather than  their own President.  What is it with the right and always wanting to invade, bomb, and start new wars to get our young men and women killed?   It's a fascination that would soon dwindle if it were THEM.. or their kids going to war.    Bunch of Chicken Hawks.



Kinda like the Cheney syndrome?  How may deferments did he get to stay safe during Vietnam?  Five I believe, and why?  Can you say all hawkish about others going to war but a coward when it could be him?


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes.... Heaven forbid we should have a person with intelligence lead us...   Just look at the Republican bench for 2016!!



Ok!  Let's look!  Why it's Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum and dum and dum and dum etal!!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Kinda like the Cheney syndrome?  How may deferments did he get to stay safe during Vietnam?  Five I believe, and why?  Can you say all hawkish about others going to war but a coward when it could be him?



Not to mention ole Mittens Romney...   He was all for the Vietnam war..  even carried placards in college in favor of more troops..  BUT.... ended up in France doing some "missionary work" and dreaming of ANNE....


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Methinks boots would be on the ground by now and and a total effort would be approved by Congress to wipe out ISIS.  In short, the country would demand a full response and that would include you...



I wouldn't demand a full response with boots on the ground.  I don't want to see any more of our troops killed and maimed in wars like this.  The US is attacking from the air, and the most it should do is increase the airstrikes.  Others can put boots on the ground in this situation, not the United States.


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## oakapple (Feb 9, 2015)

Boots on the ground is a bad idea, and just what ISIS wants.You would then see plenty of pics of burning servicemen.Air strikes are the way to go, because of this ISIS is not being able to move around like it was doing, and is now more contained.


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## darroll (Feb 9, 2015)




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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

A conservative in FULL battle gear!!!!


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

darroll said:


> View attachment 14190



Oh!  Yeah!  Karl Rove.  He was a real macho Draft Dodger!  BTW It was on President Obama's call that the orchestrator of 9/11 was killed.  Forget that already? 

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/09/18/884/06682/elections/Karl-Rove-s-Draft-Deferment


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## darroll (Feb 9, 2015)

I don't know a thing about talking points. Is this when the screwed up GOP sends you a dun?

  In the good ole days some country kills an American and war was declared.

Now it's ignored when a country kills an American.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Methinks boots would be on the ground by now and and a total effort would be approved by Congress to wipe out ISIS.  In short, the country would demand a full response and that would include you...



I have to be honest, there's a lot to be said (imo) for going in and kickin some ass.  I just hate having our guys die in the war (or gals) but I'd sure be willing to join up.  I know someone's gonna say something about this, but when Hitler was doing his thing, I sure wished we would have kicked his ass way earlier  Nothing like war to bring a country together, for the most part, always protesters which I can't blame them for their opinion either.  I respect it too.  But I bet we'd forget about the damn republican/democrat war pretty fast.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

darroll said:


> I don't know a thing about talking points. Is this when the screwed up GOP sends you a dun?
> 
> *In the good ole days some country kills an American and war was declared.
> *
> Now it's ignored when a country kills an American.



Got links????  Show me a single incident where war was declared over an American being killed.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

darroll said:


> I don't know a thing about talking points. Is this when the screwed up GOP sends you a dun?
> 
> In the good ole days some country kills an American and war was declared.
> 
> Now it's ignored when a country kills an American.



Really???

http://www.cps-news.com/2011/09/30/president-obamas-terrorist-scorecard/

The following is a list of high-profile terrorist killed or captured since President Obama took office.


September 2011 – *Younis al Mauritani captured* (senior al Qaeda leader in Pakistan)


September 2011 – *Abu Hafs al-Shahri killed* (al Qaeda’s chief of Pakistan operations)


August 2011 – *Atiyah Abd al-Rahman killed* (Al Qaeda No. 2 in Pakistan)


May 2011 – *Osama bin Laden killed* (Number 1 Al Qaeda, and worlds most wanted)


June 2011 – *Fazul Abdullah Mohammed killed* (top al-Qaeda operative in Somalia)


June 2011 – *Ilyas Kashmiri killed* (top al- Qaeda commander in Pakistan)


June 2010 – *Hawza al Jawfi killed along with 6 other terrorist* (leader in Pakistan)


May 2010 – *Mustafa Ahmed Muhammad Uthman Abu al-Yazid killed* [aliases Shaikh Sa’id al-Masri and Mustafa Abu al-Yazid] (al Qaeda’s No. 3)


April 2010 – *Abu Ayyub al-Masri and Abu Umar al-Baghdadi* (Top two Al Qaeda operatives in Iraq)


March 2010 – *Qari Mohammad Zafar killed* (terrorist leader in Pakistan)


February 2010 – *Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar captured* (The Taliban’s top military commander)


February 2010 – *Sirajuddin Haqqani killed* (militant commander in Pakistan)


January 2010 – *Qassem al-Rimi, Ayed al-Shabwani, Ammar al-Waili, Saleh al-Tais, Ibrahim and Mohammed Saleh al-Banna killed* (Al-Qaeda military boss and senior Al-Qaeda figures in the Arabian Peninsula)


December 2009 – *Saleh Al-Somali killed* (senior al Qaeda operative in Pakistan)


September 2009 – *Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan killed* (ringleader of an al Qaeda cell in Kenya)


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## Debby (Feb 9, 2015)

Well that list sure doesn't look like it's ignored when an American is killed.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Boots on the ground is a bad idea, and just what ISIS wants.You would then see plenty of pics of burning servicemen.Air strikes are the way to go, because of this ISIS is not being able to move around like it was doing, and is now more contained.



I think it would be more like you're saying OA, I'm hoping we kick their ass without losing so many on the ground as in the past ways we did things.  I think that's more of a "saying", but means the same, go in, kick ass, and get our guys out again, alive.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I think it would be more like you're saying OA, I'm hoping we kick their ass without losing so many on the ground as in the past ways we did things.  I think that's more of a "saying", but means the same, go in, kick ass, and get our guys out again, alive.



Spoken like a armchair warrior.  Easy to say, not easy to do.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Well that list sure doesn't look like it's ignored when an American is killed.



and that list only is up to 2011... I cannot find a more recent update.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Spoken like a armchair warrior.  Easy to say, not easy to do.



Oh yeah, try me.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Oh yeah, try me.



*Eyes roll*


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## Debby (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Oh!  Yeah!  Karl Rove.  He was a real macho Draft Dodger!  BTW It was on President Obama's call that the orchestrator of 9/11 was killed.  Forget that already?
> 
> http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/09/18/884/06682/elections/Karl-Rove-s-Draft-Deferment




Our PM Steven Harper is also a 'hawk' (isn't that what they call pro-war people?) and is more than willing to threaten and bluster and involve Canadians in conflict,  but the guy was also never in the military.  Not only that, he likes to show up for photo ops wearing an Air Force jacket complete with pilots wings, both of which not only apparently infuriates military members but the wearing of the pilots wings is apparently illegal in Canadian law if you aren't/weren't a pilot.  Absolutely no class.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Our PM Steven Harper is also a 'hawk' (isn't that what they call pro-war people?) and is more than willing to threaten and bluster and involve Canadians in conflict,  but the guy was also never in the military.  Not only that, he likes to show up for photo ops wearing an Air Force jacket complete with pilots wings, both of which not only apparently infuriates military members but the wearing of the pilots wings is apparently illegal in Canadian law if you aren't/weren't a pilot.  Absolutely no class.



Same with all our Hawks, other good ole John McCain.  Most of the other big mouths that were old enough for the draft were draft dodgers..  The younger ones never served... but just LOVE to send other people's kids to get killed.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

I imagine Isis or any other enemy of the US sitting back just loving how the fight continues here between the Rs and Ds.  Does anyone else think this is totally non-productive and a waste of time?  Gads, I'd like to bring in a huge pool, no water, just mud, and throw you all in it, I'll hose you off when you smear each other enough to get rid of the hate, if that's even possible.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Our PM Steven Harper is also a 'hawk' (isn't that what they call pro-war people?) and is more than willing to threaten and bluster and involve Canadians in conflict,  but the guy was also never in the military.  Not only that, he likes to show up for photo ops wearing an Air Force jacket complete with pilots wings, both of which not only apparently infuriates military members but the wearing of the pilots wings is apparently illegal in Canadian law if you aren't/weren't a pilot.  Absolutely no class.



Wow!  What an ass.  Here it illegal to were medals or insignias if you didn't earn them.  http://www.stripes.com/news/report-court-rules-wearing-unearned-medals-a-crime-1.311205


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> *Eyes roll*



I guess you're some hotshot because you were in the service.  Guess what, not everyone that wanted to serve got to.  You don't know a thing about me and what I'd do.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I imagine Isis or any other enemy of the US sitting back just loving how the fight continues here between the Rs and Ds.  Does anyone else think this is totally non-productive and a waste of time?  Gads, I'd like to bring in a huge pool, no water, just mud, and throw you all in it, I'll hose you off when you smear each other enough to get rid of the hate, if that's even possible.



So you don't include yourself in the mud throwing?  You usually are subtle but definitely express you right leanings.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I guess you're some hotshot because you were in the service.  Guess what, not everyone that wanted to serve got to.  You don't know a thing about me and what I'd do.



I don't profess to be any kind of "hotshot".  I think rather than continue this I'll just ignore you.  No harm no foul!


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

That suits me, more than.  Dang this day just keeps getting better!!


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> So you don't include yourself in the mud throwing?  You usually are subtle but definitely express you right leanings.



No, you just think that about anyone, and everyone that doesn't agree with you 100%.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I don't profess to be any kind of "hotshot".  I think rather than continue this I'll just ignore you.  No harm no foul!



The Ignore button is a wonderful feature...  Just close your eyes and think of them hopping up and down in a soundproof room...  ahhhhhhh...


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> The Ignore button is a wonderful feature...  Just close your eyes and think of them hopping up and down in a soundproof room...  ahhhhhhh...



I have only one on it and I just put it there.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

I know it's hard to handle someone who doesn't kiss your fanny, and agree with all your stuff  Careful though, you guys might run out of people, but you'll have each other.


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## darroll (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Got links????  Show me a single incident where war was declared over an American being killed.




http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/allwars.htm

War was declared after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

Viet Nam started killing adviser's but no war was declared.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

One of the best examples Darroll.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

darroll said:


> I don't know a thing about talking points. Is this when the screwed up GOP sends you a dun?
> 
> In the good ole days some country kills *an American* and war was declared.
> 
> Now it's ignored when a country kills an American.



Pearl Harbor was an attack on America and of course war was declared.  The advisers you mentioned were part of the very beginning of the Vietnam (under Ike's MAAG program) and were only the vanguard of our entry into full scale "police action" .  We have never declared war due to AN  AMERICAN being killed (as the original subject was) as you stated!


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## BobF (Feb 9, 2015)

Years back there were two political parties in the US.   As an election drew near they would stand aside of each other an rail about just anything.   After the election we would then have some co operative activities between the two parties as they continued to run our government as best they could.

Now we have two political parties in the US.   For some reason we now have hateful arguments most of the time or all the time.   This is pure BS among the many real politicians and also among those followers that once knew enough to allow the government to take its course and try to govern a bit.   All this hateful acdtivity really seems to have started in recent years too.   Probably starting in the 1970's and slowly getting worse each year.   In the recent 10 years we have seen some of the worst governments and some of the nastiest of all government activities for the people to have to see and live with.    Far too much has been taken from the Congress and is being run outside the Constitutional ways of our government.   We need to get our government back into its proper format and start operating through our Congress as the Constitution tells us.    All these special groups operating independently are wrong, to say the least.

Some in today's notes say they want no one overseas doing a war or after a war is over.    Well, after WWII made possible by the peace loving folks prior to Hitlers actions, we had our troops and many of the other nations troops stay in Europe and Japan for several years.   This gave those countries time to adjust to a peaceful way of living and to have tried to adjust to elected governments over the relics of kingdom's.   Things went pretty well for many years but now again we have problems with the stay at home folks and their mystic wisdom of being international wimps.

Nothing wrong with letting others know strong wills and likely repercussions for not being peaceful themselves.   A strong presence is much better than a few wimps playing co operative with others that have no kindness in their thinking.   But fear of being punished does get them to think a bit about what they are thinking of, or actually, doing.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

Bob, I have voted every election since I was eligible.  I am kind of a political/news Junkie.  I must say I too, have not seen the United States so divided in my time.  Republicans want to blame Democrats and vice versa.  I don't like seeing the big money guys or lobbyists being able to control voting but, I confess I know of no solution that both parties would agree to.  It is with our political climate in mind that I am glad I am closer to the end than the beginning..


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## QuickSilver (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Bob, I have voted every election since I was eligible.  I am kind of a political/news Junkie.  I must say I too, have not seen the United States so divided in my time.  Republicans want to blame Democrats and vice versa.  I don't like seeing the big money guys or lobbyists being able to control voting but, I confess I know of no solution that both parties would agree to.  It is with our political climate in mind that I am glad I am closer to the end than the beginning..



And it doesn't appear that the GOP is willing to "get the money out of politics"  There have been bills brought up to end Citizens United that have met with GOP opposition. Why would THEY want to get the BIG money out of politics when they are the beneficiaries of most of it.


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## Falcon (Feb 9, 2015)

Denise leans to the right because she's usually right.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> And it doesn't appear that the GOP is willing to "get the money out of politics"  There have been bills brought up to end Citizens United that have met with GOP opposition. Why would THEY want to get the BIG money out of politics when they are the beneficiaries of most of it.



A major dividing factor.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

BobF said:


> Years back there were two political parties in the US.   As an election drew near they would stand aside of each other an rail about just anything.   After the election we would then have some co operative activities between the two parties as they continued to run our government as best they could.
> 
> Now we have two political parties in the US.   For some reason we now have hateful arguments most of the time or all the time.   This is pure BS among the many real politicians and also among those followers that once knew enough to allow the government to take its course and try to govern a bit.   All this hateful acdtivity really seems to have started in recent years too.   Probably starting in the 1970's and slowly getting worse each year.   In the recent 10 years we have seen some of the worst governments and some of the nastiest of all government activities for the people to have to see and live with.    Far too much has been taken from the Congress and is being run outside the Constitutional ways of our government.   We need to get our government back into its proper format and start operating through our Congress as the Constitution tells us.    All these special groups operating independently are wrong, to say the least.
> 
> ...



Well said Bob, I especially thought that last paragraph was "dead on"!!  I like to give credit where credit is do, and if a Democrat says something I can learn from, I also love their posts.  Like when we discussed the pipeline, I heard lots of good stuff from Dems.  I don't like hate mongers on either side, yeah, zero sign of kindness in their thinking.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

rt3 said:


> Pilots were captured, I believe it was during the Carter ad. Us went in, big sand storm lost a bunch of people, copters. Etc.



Yes, Desert Storm, geesh, we've had so many wars I'm getting them mixed up, thanks RT


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## BobF (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> And it doesn't appear that the GOP is willing to "get the money out of politics"  There have been bills brought up to end Citizens United that have met with GOP opposition. Why would THEY want to get the BIG money out of politics when they are the beneficiaries of most of it.



Best to not claim either party using money is wrong.   If looking at election budgets we can find both parties are heavily into hand outs from wealthy sources.   If we could make up our minds and take the voting all the way back to how it was set up, no parties at all, then maybe we could end up with more honesty in the elected ones.    Something we really have not had for many years.   To me, parties are distractions from the purpose our people are elected for.   Not for parties at all, but for the districts they are elected from by the people.   So in essence, it is the people who elect these government employees, not the twisted parties.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> I think it would be more like you're saying OA, I'm hoping we kick their ass without losing so many on the ground as in the past ways we did things.  I think that's more of a "saying", but means the same, go in, kick ass, and get our guys out again, alive.



I'm against putting our troops there, because for one thing, it's never a quick in and out.  Look at how long the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have lasted.  Also, too many never make it out alive.  Not to mention our troops coming back with physical, mental and emotional issues that very few people care to address.  They are doped up, nobody wants to hire them, broken marriages, and they're basically kicked to the curb, if they commit suicide...oh well.

Besides that, war is a very expensive proposition financially:

"The number of American troops who have died fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan totaled 6,802 as of April 2014. Those individuals came from every part of the United States and its territories, and the great majority were young men. Many were married, with children, and all left families with a lifetime of pain.


They died in a host of horrific ways. They were killed by insurgents’ deadly targeting or mangled in the dangerous equipment with which they worked. The causes of death include hostile rocket-propelled grenade fire and the improvised explosive devices that have been responsible for roughly half of all deaths and injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

Their deaths were also the result of truck rollovers and other vehicle crashes, electrocutions, heatstroke deaths, friendly fire, and suicides in theater.
Official Pentagon numbers recognize only some of the war dead, however. Uncounted are the many troops who return home and kill themselves as a result of war wounds such as PTSD. The military does not report suicides among non-active duty reservists, and the Department of Veterans Affairs still does not report suicides among all veterans, resulting in dramatic under-reporting of the scale of the problem.

While the mortally wounded US soldier is the “gold standard” of war deaths for many Americans, the military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan have produced fatalities among large and unrecognized numbers of private contract workers. In April 2014, the over 61,000 contractors in Afghanistan outnumbered the uniformed US troops there. [1] While contractors have been killed in large numbers, a full and accurate accounting has not yet been done by the Pentagon. 

 An estimated 6,800 contractors working for the US have been killed in the two war zones; the true number is likely much larger.  This is the consequence of the fact that the majority of US contractors are the citizens of other countries, many of whom appear not to have had their deaths or injuries reported. (Page updated as of May 2014)"

http://costsofwar.org/article/us-killed-0



*Casualties in Iraq​*
*The Human Cost of Occupation*
​  *American Military Casualties in Iraq 
*​ *Date*​*Total*​*In Combat*​ *American Deaths*Since war began (3/19/03):*4493**3528*Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list)​*4347**3424*Since Handover (6/29/04):*3627**2899*Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09):*256**128*Since Operation New Dawn:*66**39**American Wounded**Official**Estimated*Total Wounded:*32021**Over 100000* Page last updated 12/13/14 12:39 pm EDT  *List of U.S. Servicemembers killed since 5/1/03*​ *Put a Casualty Counter on Your Website*​  *U.S. Wounded*​ *Daily DoD Casualty Release*​ *320,000 Vets Have Brain Injuries*​ *War Veterans’ Concussions Are Often Overlooked*​ *How Many Servicemembers Were Wounded?*​ *18 Vet Suicides Per Day?*​  *Iraqi Casualties*​  *Others*​

​ *Other Coalition Troops - Iraq**319*​ *US Military Deaths - Afghanistan**2356*​ *Other Military Deaths - Afghanistan**1127*​ *Contractor Employee Deaths* *- Iraq**1,487*​ *Journalists - Iraq**348*​ *Academics Killed - Iraq**448*​ Sources: DoD, MNF, and iCasualties.org
 
 *The Faces*​*The List*​*Sources*​*American Casualties*​*Iraqi Casualties*​*Contact*​
*U.S. lacks mechanism to accurately track troops wounded in Iraq*
Also see The Missing Wounded.
*American Count*​*D*ates and sources of Americans killed in Iraq since 5/1/03 are documented in this file. Admittedly the file is incomplete, for the Department of Defense does not maintain old records. All data was compiled from http://www.defenselink.mil. If something is amiss in the data collection, please contact Margaret Griffis. 
http://antiwar.com/casualties/





darroll said:


> http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/allwars.htm
> 
> War was declared after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
> 
> Viet Nam started killing adviser's but no war was declared.



As AZJim already pointed out, Pearl Harbor was an attack on the United States.



AZ Jim said:


> I must say I too, have not seen the United States so divided in my time.  Republicans want to blame Democrats and vice versa.  I don't like seeing the big money guys or lobbyists being able to control voting but, I confess I know of no solution that both parties would agree to.  It is with our political climate in mind that I am glad I am closer to the end than the beginning..



I agree that America is greatly divided, and I think that the 24 hour "news" cycle, and the biases of the main-stream media contribute to that greatly.  Rather than report facts, and discuss resolutions to the issues, they take sides, repeat sound bites over and over, and basically get everyone in an uproar.  Although we are all Americans who want what's best for ourselves and our country, we have different ideas on how to accomplish that.  Bickering between the parties will likely never end.  

By the way, I have great respect for you and your opinions, and I thank you for your service to our country.  I think those who have served have a greater understanding of what war entails, and the true costs of war, regardless of their political affiliation.  Many of us who have never served in the military, or been closely affected by war, can learn a lot by just listening to facts and opinions.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

That's exactly right, one party isn't doing anything the other doesn't do, I mean even TV stations are taking sides, but I understand all the people aren't going to agree on every thing.  So we vote, but I will not vote for someone just because they are a D or an R.  I have to be careful because it seems some candidates agree with everything that the democrats want, and other agree with everything that the R's want.  We need a president that is objective to both parties, and more then parties, the PEOPLE!  Lots of people are one party or the other these days, they are sick of it too!

It's such a waste of precious time, throwing pies at who we don't agree with.  Geesh, anything one person can say about one party, there is always a truth to say back.  Well, I just think some folks like to argue and be right, that's what's most important, being right, being a bigshot.  Putting someone else down somehow makes them feel bigger and better about themselves.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

SeaBreeze said:


> I'm against putting our troops there, because for one thing, it's never a quick in and out.  Look at how long the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have lasted.  Also, too many never make it out alive.  Not to mention our troops coming back with physical, mental and emotional issues that very few people care to address.  They are doped up, nobody wants to hire them, broken marriages, and they're basically kicked to the curb, if they commit suicide...oh well.
> 
> Besides that, war is a very expensive proposition financially:
> 
> ...



I agree with a lot you say Seabreeze, and I don't like the idea of "ground troops" either.  I think thats great too that AZ served as many others here have, but I don't respect comments on this board towards me or anyone else that simply agreed with something a Republican said.  I like to weigh out both sides, I personally don't think either has any better ideas than the other, but that's why it's hard when it comes down to voting.


----------



## BobF (Feb 9, 2015)

To me, these Iraq and Afghanistan totals for about 10 years are really quite low.   Think back to the WWII fights of 3 or 4 years length and they were in the many thousands each year.   Now those were really tough years for all of us.   And one reason we kept our troops officially on duty for several years was to help those other countries get themselves back into productive ways and able to stand on their own with out problems.   Those wars are more than just the shoot outs, as some think.   It takes a lot of years and some new generations of young to learn new ways to live together with out so much fighting.   I think Europe has done well and not really gone into more wars as they had done for so many centuries prior.

We should be prepared to help these folks long after their shooting is ended.   It takes these extra efforts to end these constant spats and fights.

As a foot note, we can also add in the Japanese as some that have really done a lot since WWII and our troops stayed there for several years after the war ended.   We still have some there as the US now rents some areas for troops and supplies.


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 9, 2015)

> Seabreeze said: "By the way, I have great respect for you and your opinions, and I thank  you for your service to our country.  I think those who have served have  a greater understanding of what war entails, and the true costs of war,  regardless of their political affiliation.  Many of us who have never  served in the military, or been closely affected by war, can learn a lot  by just listening to facts and opinions."



Thank you SeaBreeze I did serve but not in combat.  My service was between Korea and Vietnam. I already was out and had my honorable discharge when Vietnam really got going. No hero here but the U.S. has had hundreds of thousands of them in our history.  I hate that man must maim and kill others in any cause.  Before we should ever make canon fodder of our young men and women, we should measure that cause carefully.


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

As long as man/woman walks the Earth, there will be bloodshed because of the people that refuse to get along.  And it "will" always be our young men and women that pay the price.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 9, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Thank you SeaBreeze I did serve but not in combat.  My service was between Korea and Vietnam. I already was out and had my honorable discharge when Vietnam really got going. No hero here but the U.S. has had hundreds of thousands of them in our history.  I hate that man must maim and kill others in any cause.  Before we should ever make canon fodder of our young men and women, we should measure that cause carefully.



The admirable thing is that you served, whether in combat or not.  I also despise that man must maim and kill others in any cause, especially when it only involves oil, power and control, which seems to me to be the case more often than not.  We take the lives of our young service people too lightly, the war mongers don't care about the American lives sacrificed or ruined, that needs to change, but I doubt it will in our lifetimes.


----------



## SeaBreeze (Feb 9, 2015)

Senator Bernie Sanders addressing boots on the ground, the 2016 elections, etc.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Our PM Steven Harper is also a 'hawk' (isn't that what they call pro-war people?) and is more than willing to threaten and bluster and involve Canadians in conflict,  but the guy was also never in the military.  Not only that, he likes to show up for photo ops wearing an Air Force jacket complete with pilots wings, both of which not only apparently infuriates military members but the wearing of the pilots wings is apparently illegal in Canadian law if you aren't/weren't a pilot.  Absolutely no class.



That's another thing, I would like to see someone become president again that actually knows first-hand what it is to serve in some God-forsaken place.  I believe we will always have to do battles/wars but I don't like the idea of someone calling the shots that isn't willing to do it themselves.  Just like bosses who've never got their hands dirty.  Where are all the candidates that have served our country. I'd love seeing a real hero in the White House.  I know, only happens in the movies


----------



## Denise1952 (Feb 9, 2015)

nwlady said:


> That's another thing, I would like to see someone become president again that actually knows first-hand what it is to serve in some God-forsaken place.  I believe we will always have to do battles/wars but I don't like the idea of someone calling the shots that isn't willing to do it themselves.  Just like bosses who've never got their hands dirty.  Where are all the candidates that have served our country. I'd love seeing a real hero in the White House.  I know, only happens in the movies



PS You are kidding me Debby, wears a uniform and never served??


----------



## Butterfly (Feb 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yes.... Heaven forbid we should have a person with intelligence lead us...   Just look at the Republican bench for 2016!!



Scares the hell out of me -- the Republican bench, I mean.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

The chance of having a president that served in the military is becoming slimmer and slimmer now that serving is just voluntary...


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Thank you SeaBreeze I did serve but not in combat.  My service was between Korea and Vietnam. I already was out and had my honorable discharge when Vietnam really got going. No hero here but the U.S. has had hundreds of thousands of them in our history.  I hate that man must maim and kill others in any cause.  Before we should ever make canon fodder of our young men and women, we should measure that cause carefully.




Thank you for your service...    I didn't serve, but know how it is being a parent of one who did..  My eldest son served 2 tours.. The first invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq.   He served 6 years...   So I understand what having a child over there is.  When I hear of the Chicken Hawks being so anxious to put more families through that... it makes me sick.  Perhaps we should reinstate the draft...  If their kids or grandkids had the chance of drafted to fight, thy might not be so eagar...  BUT of course, those kids would all get exemptions anyway..


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

Still feel that had it been an American the drums for war would drown out all objecting voices...


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## rkunsaw (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Still feel that had it been an American the drums for war would drown out all objecting voices...



There were Americans that were shown on video as they were being beheaded. Where were the war drums Ralphy? 

My other post on this subject was based on observations of what the president did then.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

They were not military and I think that makes all of the difference...


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## rkunsaw (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> They were not military and I think that makes all of the difference...



That's a strange thing to say Ralphy. I think we and our government should be concerned about the lives of all Americans  Equally!


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

Your point is well taken, but I think that journalists or aid workers do not evoke the same emotions as do the military...


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Your point is well taken, but I think that journalists or aid workers do not evoke the same emotions as do the military...



4,000 military lives WERE lost in that clusterfutch.... AND you still want to send MORE?


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

I never said that I did, but I sense that many do...


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

I see 4,000 over 10 years plus some more to be quite reasonable compared to the WWII days when 4,000 was small per day in the European efforts.  The efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan were really quite less than our WWII efforts and casualties.   We quite too soon, before the people had a chance to learn about peace and have government they could trust.   Some of this current mess could be our own desire to hit and run.   We, as part of the shared efforts of many countries, should have stayed on and helped these folks to learn about a shared government and not just revert back to their religion led ways of life.


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## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

Hit and run?  Hardly, over ten years and billions spent tryin to turn theses countries into some fantasy of an American state...


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> I never said that I did, but I sense that many do...



I know you didn't...  I meant "YOU" in the general sense.. and aimed it at those who see war as the answer to everything.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

But I might join the Hawks depending on what unfolds...


----------



## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> But I might join the Hawks depending on what unfolds...



Doesn't that statement apply to most of us?  Do you think that because someone favors a more measured approach that they feel war is NEVER appropriate?  Sometimes it is.. and there is no other solution.  It's just that war seems to be the knee-jerk reaction to all events for some... particularly the GOP.  Any sort of negotiation and diplomacy is seen as weak.. not macho... whatever..   Which of course is really funny coming from a bunch of draft dodgers and deferment seekers.


----------



## Ralphy1 (Feb 10, 2015)

I joined the Air Force as the recruiter said that the Air Force consisted of technicians and lovers, not fighters.  In my case he was half right...


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Hit and run?  Hardly, over ten years and billions spent tryin to turn theses countries into some fantasy of an American state...



I don't think changing Iraq was to create a copy of the American fantasy whatever was what we did.   Iraq was allowed to pick their style of government and did so over a year or so.   Then it was up to the combination of forces gathered in Iraq to stay and help the people learn to use their government for governing and not for religious reasons, which it appears us what they did.   I mentioned our after WWII experience and how well it worked out for Europe and the rest of the world.   Something I thought we had going till our administration changed and we flat out pulled out and left the inexperienced in charge.   Now we have a real mess over there.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

BobF said:


> I don't think changing Iraq was to create a copy of the American fantasy whatever was what we did.   Iraq was allowed to pick their style of government and did so over a year or so.   Then it was up to the combination of forces gathered in Iraq to stay and help the people learn to use their government for governing and not for religious reasons, which it appears us what they did.   I mentioned our after WWII experience and how well it worked out for Europe and the rest of the world.   Something I thought we had going till our administration changed and we flat out pulled out and left the inexperienced in charge.   Now we have a real mess over there.



So, you wanted even more injured, maimed and killed?  When do hawks get enough blood and guts?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> So, you wanted even more injured, maimed and killed?  When do hawks get enough blood and guts?




Never!!   So long as it's OTHER PEOPLE'S kids and grandkids blood and guts.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Never!!   So long as it's OTHER PEOPLE'S kids and grandkids blood and guts.



So true. Pitiful.


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> So, you wanted even more injured, maimed and killed?  When do hawks get enough blood and guts?



Not at all Jim.   It would not be as bad as it is today had we stayed and helped them get used to a real government in charge in place of some religion.   Look to what is happening now as we work to arm the ones willing to fight the radicals that have developed in the past year or so.   We have one hell of a mess going on over their now and are trying once again to get Iraq armed and trained to try to defend themselves and help others.   So we stepped out, allowed crap to form, and now hope to get those once trained troops, retrained again, and back into the fight.  Had we stayed a few years longer this may not ever have happened.   It worked in Europe.   And even with Russia being so obstinate and a problem, Europe has not had any big fights among themselves.   Lets see, my son was sent into Kosovo I think, to help hold down some unrest a few years back.   That I believe was under Clinton.   One of the few good Presidents from the Democrat party.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

BobF said:


> Not at all Jim.   It would not be as bad as it is today had we stayed and helped them get used to a real government in charge in place of some religion.   Look to what is happening now as we work to arm the ones willing to fight the radicals that have developed in the past year or so.   We have one hell of a mess going on over their now and are trying once again to get Iraq armed and trained to try to defend themselves and help others.   So we stepped out, allowed crap to form, and now hope to get those once trained troops, retrained again, and back into the fight.  Had we stayed a few years longer this may not ever have happened.   It worked in Europe.   And even with Russia being so obstinate and a problem, Europe has not had any big fights among themselves.   Lets see, my son was sent into Kosovo I think, to help hold down some unrest a few years back.   That I believe was under Clinton.   One of the few good Presidents from the Democrat party.



I'm sorry but most of that is pure bull.  Just what is it that makes you and others think we are the worlds cops?  Do you think even for a minute we we could replace their Religion as you say we should have done?  Europeans are us.  We think the same, fanatic muslims do not.


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I'm sorry but most of that is pure bull.  Just what is it that makes you and others think we are the worlds cops?  Do you think even for a minute we we could replace their Religion as you say we should have done?  Europeans are us.  We think the same, fanatic muslims do not.



I believe that it is ours, and others, in a operation called the UN that asks for countries like the US to step in and try to quell these mixed up areas that love to have wars all the time.   The US has gone into several places to help the UN get some stability in this world of ours.   Nothing wrong with that at all.   Sometimes I do agree, the UN was set up to be a beggar for help, rather than allow them to have their own army, they ask and many countries then help them.   The way the UN has talked on a couple of issues is that his way is much better and the UN can not just jamb a lot of ideas on all.    It is not all US wrong political party stuff as some think.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I'm sorry but most of that is pure bull.  Just what is it that makes you and others think we are the worlds cops?  Do you think even for a minute we we could replace their Religion as you say we should have done?  Europeans are us.  We think the same, fanatic muslims do not.



Ahhh.... so the plan is to keep fighting wars until we convert all of the nearly 2 BILLION Muslims to Western ways, and Western religions?


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Ahhh.... so the plan is to keep fighting wars until we convert all of the nearly 2 BILLION Muslims to Western ways, and Western religions?



So BobF would have it.  And nightly he could watch the effort from home.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I'm sorry but most of that is pure bull.  Just what is it that makes you and others think we are the worlds cops?  Do you think even for a minute we we could replace their Religion as you say we should have done?  Europeans are us.  We think the same, fanatic muslims do not.



That's the way I see it too, and I always wonder why the US is really willing to try to change the government there, and risk the lives of our men and women in the process.  I don't understand, it doesn't make sense. http://www.politicususa.com/2014/09/18/iraq-deal-isis-sovereign-nation.html


"It is curious why any American feels this country has a duty to wade into other nation’s internal affairs; particularly with military might. The President and Republicans claim their goal is destroying ISIS to protect innocent Iraqis, but there is about as much chance of destroying ISIS as there is destroying the Taliban in Afghanistan.

 Surely President Obama, if not warmongering Republicans, understands the idea of defeating, much less destroying, an insurgency or affecting a sovereign nation’s civil war is a futile fantasy. For dog’s sake America failed in Viet Nam, Russia failed after ten years in Afghanistan, America failed after 13 years in Afghanistan and counting, and yet after failing in Iraq, Republicans are clamoring to fail again.

 ISIS will never be destroyed any more than any other extremist group or insurgency is ever destroyed. They may be dispersed, change their name, and hide out for a time, but an insurgency, like extremists devoted to terrorism is a mindset that is never defeated.

Neo-cons were quick to cite the recent killings of American journalists as proof ISIS poses a threat to America’s national security, but those journalists were not in America; they were in a war-zone in a foreign sovereign nation.

 It is noteworthy there was absolutely no Republican outrage when American troops killed innocent foreign journalists in Iraq, or hundreds-of-thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians; likely because they regarded Iraq as part of America where targeting citizens is a standard Republican policy.

President Obama is right; Iraq can secure their own country’s future” and “fight for their own country” against ISIS.

 It is true this country set in motion the rise of ISIS when America gave Iraqi and Iranian Shia Muslims free rein to expatriate Sunnis to Syria to destabilize that sovereign nation, but it is time for them to take responsibility for their own actions and reap the rewards of attempting to purge one Muslim sect from their midst. 

It is also noteworthy, that despite the four-century goal of creating a purely Islamic caliphate in northern Iraq and Syria, there was no ISIS, insurgency, civil war, or Sunni-Shia unrest during Saddam’s administration. There was also no civil war in Syria where Christians and several Muslim sects lived in peace before Bush’s neo-cons decided Iraq was an American colony that needed regime change."


----------



## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

It all goes back to the fact that we appreciate what is not given to us but worked for and earned.


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

You are all ignoring what I have posted and continue to post pure nonsense.    What happened to the UN, are we supposed to tell them to got to hell all the time?    What happened to our defense of the US security in our original catch the killers of the New York, D.C., Pennsylvania, in Afghanistan.   You all seem to be blind to actual events and just stick to useless comments that all we are doing is trying to end Muslims religion.   What a bunch of ignorant comments.

We are not challenging the Muslims and we have many living in the US today.   We have worked hard to find that killer in Afghanistan.    When located he was dispatched by our military.   It was a mistake to give Obama credit for that ending.    He was just a bystander at the time, same as most of the rest of the US citizens were.   Thank you to the military.

And that long and lying string of nonsense in the post below yours is full of socialist nonsense too.   Why are all folks that don't preach what you folks like considered liars?    They are not as you will say about what I just posed about your lies.   Difference of opinions is allowed on this forum an of course in the US.   Both my daughter and son had to serve in Iraq,   My son was also serving in that skirmish near Yugoslavia.    Both are volunteers in the military, after they finished their college days.   So I have no idea what you folks are so confused about.   The US has a good system going, more countries need to try some of our freedoms and get away from all this sitting on their butts and depending on the government to take care of them silliness that only make the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.    Look to the US today with Obama's ways.   Our debt has jumped to over $18 trillion, about $8 trillion since he took over.   Prior, under Clinton and Bush, the debt was actually going down and was somewhere in the $7.5 trillion level before the Pelosi and Reid took over Bush's last two years and ran it up to $10 trillion.

All this whining and complaining about the Republicans is useless.   Until the Democrats and Republicans do decide to co operate and  lead this country, the US will go the way of socialist Europe and keep falling backward and become useless as can be.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

BobF, I won't trouble you further with "ignorant" comments.


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## WhatInThe (Feb 10, 2015)

Might not have a captured/burnt pilot but there is now a dead female hostage. Aid worker confirmed dead.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/isis-hostage-kayla-mueller-confirmed-dead-article-1.2109508

Sad and infuriating.

 So what will happen?


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## Denise1952 (Feb 10, 2015)

Last time I heard of Americans being rescued, it was by film-crew/actors & Canada rescuing them.  I saw Argo, but I did at least read the Wiki on it that I think was good info.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 10, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> Might not have a captured/burnt pilot but there is now a dead female hostage. Aid worker confirmed dead.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/isis-hostage-kayla-mueller-confirmed-dead-article-1.2109508
> 
> ...


I don't know WIT, I lay awake a lot last night trying to figure out how you could rescue people without getting them and yourself killed I don't know how the police even manage to get a hostage away from someone here. It's infuriating yes, and horrible.  Just like you read about in Medieval times


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## Josiah (Feb 10, 2015)

I remain undecided on whether I agree with our current strategy of bombing ISIS with the help of allies. My original opinion was that nothing we have ever done in the middle east has improved anything and I saw little likelihood that the current ISIS strategy would be any different. I guess I'm still leaning towards a non-involved position. I admit that ISIS has paid a heavy price for provoking us into bombing and we have succeeded in getting a very little bit of cooperation from a few of the Arab states, but I still remain skeptical that it will improve things in the long run.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 10, 2015)

I agree with you Josiah, there has never been peace, and sometimes I just feel we are throwing our people away.  Yes, I get up in arms and hate what I see groups like ISIS doing, but even trying to stay out of it, I think someone would go out of their way to involve us anyway


----------



## oakapple (Feb 10, 2015)

The USA, a  super power in the world, does sometimes have to help police the world. All thoughts of war should be well considered before being embarked on [of course] and no country wants to lose any military personnnel BUT these young men and women have joined up to serve and that is their role.My heart goes out to any parents of soldiers either in the US or here who lose their lives, but they [the soldiers] are doing what they wanted to when they joined the services.I don't like to see them being talked about as victims, and I'm sure they would hate the thought too.
Bob talked about the US helping in the UN in Kosovo a while back, yes all the UN countries were involved in that, and to our credit what we doing there was stopping the Christian Serbs slaughtering whole villages of Kosovan Muslims.Bob also says that Europe has not had any wars since WW2, and yes, that's a fact too thank goodness.Although we have all taken part in other wars since then [not in Europe].I'm being a tad rambling here, but what I want to say is that sometimes we [and the US] should get involved and not look the other way, but there are often ways to accomplish things without the 'boots on the ground' scenario, once diplomacy has failed, and that air strikes, in the case of ISIS have been very effective.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

OA, the signed up comment is not always true.  The latest war in which we drafted hundreds of thousands was Vietnam.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 10, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> OA, the signed up comment is not always true.  The latest war in which we drafted hundreds of thousands was Vietnam.



Not to mention... that with the economy, the jobs market and the cost of education, many feel it is their only recourse.. At least they can get some money from the GI Bill to go to college.  That just might be part of the plan... keep college costs out of reach, keep wages low... and voila!!... a steady supply of cannon fodder for the next war that can make money for the wealthy.


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## BobF (Feb 10, 2015)

Now someone is going backwards in time and all the way back to a Democrat government at that.

When did we change our draft rules to all enlisted.   It has been for a number of years.   When I was in the service, volunteer, the Korean draft was still going on for sure.   One of the UN's first major efforts to try to control the situation.

Actually the US draft ended in January 1973.  Right after the end of the Vietnam war.   I don't think it has ever been used since.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 10, 2015)

As I said "the last war in which we drafted....".


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## Denise1952 (Feb 10, 2015)

oakapple said:


> The USA, a  super power in the world, does sometimes have to help police the world. All thoughts of war should be well considered before being embarked on [of course] and no country wants to lose any military personnnel BUT these young men and women have joined up to serve and that is their role.My heart goes out to any parents of soldiers either in the US or here who lose their lives, but they [the soldiers] are doing what they wanted to when they joined the services.I don't like to see them being talked about as victims, and I'm sure they would hate the thought too.
> Bob talked about the US helping in the UN in Kosovo a while back, yes all the UN countries were involved in that, and to our credit what we doing there was stopping the Christian Serbs slaughtering whole villages of Kosovan Muslims.Bob also says that Europe has not had any wars since WW2, and yes, that's a fact too thank goodness.Although we have all taken part in other wars since then [not in Europe].I'm being a tad rambling here, but what I want to say is that sometimes we [and the US] should get involved and not look the other way, but there are often ways to accomplish things without the 'boots on the ground' scenario, once diplomacy has failed, and that air strikes, in the case of ISIS have been very effective.



Well said OakApple, wow, what a lot of good points.  I know my brothers wanted to serve and they've never regretted it that I know of.  One brother went on the serve on the police force because he wanted to continue to serve and protect.

All you said was excellent imo!  Thank you for that, denise


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## Denise1952 (Feb 10, 2015)

BobF said:


> Now someone is going backwards in time and all the way back to a Democrat government at that.
> 
> When did we change our draft rules to all enlisted.   It has been for a number of years.   When I was in the service, volunteer, the Korean draft was still going on for sure.   One of the UN's first major efforts to try to control the situation.
> 
> Actually the US draft ended in January 1973.  Right after the end of the Vietnam war.   I don't think it has ever been used since.



I remember Bob, I so appreciate your input as well as your service to this country, thank you, a million times thank you, denise


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> OA, the signed up comment is not always true. The latest war in which we drafted hundreds of thousands was Vietnam.



I was talking about now AZ. Nobody has been conscripted to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan etc.I know somebody who's son [in the British Army] is in bomb disposal, and was in Afghanistan a few years ago. His Mother was rightly worried about him, but very proud of him also, and accepted that he may well die there [he didn't, but others in his unit did.]He loved the Army and was proud of the job he did.Some families of dead army personnel over here are very angry with our government, of course they are grieving because they have lost loved ones BUT you can't cherry pick the wars you are in once you join up. I don't honestly think that most soldiers here [and the US] think of themselves as victims, the way the media likes to portay them.
My husband used to be in the Royal Navy some years ago, and he had to think long and hard before he joined up, as it's no good joining up 'to see the world', you may have to kill people[granted that's more the army than the navy] but you never know.It may not be a popular comment for me to make, but that is what we pay our servicemen for.


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

nwlady said:


> Well said OakApple, wow, what a lot of good points. I know my brothers wanted to serve and they've never regretted it that I know of. One brother went on the serve on the police force because he wanted to continue to serve and protect.
> 
> All you said was excellent imo! Thank you for that, denise


   Good for them [your brothers.]


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

If our enlistees were going in for the pay, they wouldn't.  The pay is terrible.  I too was an enlistee and I went in to get a school in electronics, I had made more money working in a gas station.


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

I don't know about other countries, but don't think the pay is all that bad here [in the services.]There are often trades to be learned as well, and certainly travel and having a social life.What I meant to say, was that nobody forces you to join up, it's a choice, but it's a choice you need to think long and hard about.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I don't know about other countries, but don't think the pay is all that bad here [in the services.]There are often trades to be learned as well, and certainly travel and having a social life.What I meant to say, was that nobody forces you to join up, it's a choice, but it's a choice you need to think long and hard about.



For many of our kids here... it's the only way they would be able to get a college education..  I know so many that enlisted just to get the GI bill after their service ended.   Rich kids don't have to worry about that... daddy sends them... So I think as a whole, it's the poor and the  lower to mid middle class that ends up doing the lions share of the fighting.


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## darroll (Feb 11, 2015)

Viet Nam: The pay was great
$100.00 combat pay
$100.00 pro pay.
I lived on ten bucks a month.
Uncle never learned to count:
One trip thru the Pea line and back to the Military Currency line was rewarding.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

oakapple said:


> Good for them [your brothers.]



You've made such a good point OA, neither of my bros think of themselves as victims.  I remember crying hysterically when my brother would get to come home, our hearts ached, but it was his life to choose.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

oakapple said:


> I don't know about other countries, but don't think the pay is all that bad here [in the services.]There are often trades to be learned as well, and certainly travel and having a social life.What I meant to say, was that nobody forces you to join up, it's a choice, but it's a choice you need to think long and hard about.



I don't know what the pay is either, but I hear a lot of "bad" input about it so I don't think it is good.  I hear a lot about the problems our guys have when they get out too, with healthcare, jobs, etc.  But like I said, I don't know the numbers, and my brothers have both been out of the service for years and into jobs here at home.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

BobF said:


> You are all ignoring what I have posted and continue to post pure nonsense.    What happened to the UN, are we supposed to tell them to got to hell all the time?    What happened to our defense of the US security in our original catch the killers of the New York, D.C., Pennsylvania, in Afghanistan.   You all seem to be blind to actual events and just stick to useless comments that all we are doing is trying to end Muslims religion.   What a bunch of ignorant comments.
> 
> We are not challenging the Muslims and we have many living in the US today.   We have worked hard to find that killer in Afghanistan.    When located he was dispatched by our military.   It was a mistake to give Obama credit for that ending.    He was just a bystander at the time, same as most of the rest of the US citizens were.   Thank you to the military.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Bob, and well said.  I've always believed people need a "leg up" not a hand-out, and there is too much of that in America.  I am below poverty level, but I cannot go against my principals in fear I won't have enough to make it.  I decided night before last, I'm not going to try to fit in everywhere by trying to see both sides.  I do see both sides, and there are exceptions where a hand-out is needed (not even sure of that as I say it) but a leg-up, and a job is the real way to go).  I am tired of the whining, including the whining I do, sickens me to look at the BIG picture, stop whining and get off our asses, INCLUDING ME!!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Who is the COMMANDER AND CHIEF.... of the military???   Bin Ladin is dead because President Obama gave THE ORDER..   To pretend otherwise is proof positive that one has  Fox news plugged into their umbilicus...  lol!!


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Who is the COMMANDER AND CHIEF.... of the military???   Bin Ladin is dead because President Obama gave THE ORDER..   To pretend otherwise is proof positive that one has  Fox news plugged into their umbilicus...  lol!!



Bin Ladin?  Oh!  The guy Bush let get away when he was told where he was (Tota Bora) by intelligence (I shouldn't use that when discussing Bush).  I guess he was too busy winking at the front row of a news conference.


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Bin Ladin?  Oh!  The guy Bush let get away when he was told where he was (Tota Bora) by intelligence (I shouldn't use that when discussing Bush).  I guess he was too busy winking at the front row of a news conference.



I have my theory on WHY Bush let Bin Ladin get away..   I believe he was more useful to the Bush/Cheney war mongering machine alive.  So long as he would crawl out of his cave periodically, and make a threatening anti-American video... Bush felt he could keep public support for his war.   Bush may not have been smart enough to realize this, but Cheney certainly was... and HE was running the show.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> I have my theory on WHY Bush let Bin Ladin get away..   I believe he was more useful to the Bush/Cheney war mongering machine alive.  So long as he would crawl out of his cave periodically, and make a threatening anti-American video... Bush felt he could keep public support for his war.   Bush may not have been smart enough to realize this, but Cheney certainly was... and HE was running the show.



Well, Cheney had time while enjoying five deferments to dodge Vietnam to gain some insight into tricks like that!


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## Josiah (Feb 11, 2015)

I think our propensity to put boots on the ground would be significantly reduced if we brought back the draft and started to send the sons and daughters of some of America's elite classes to fight our wars in the middle east.


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## BobF (Feb 11, 2015)

I gave my son and daughter each one year of college to start them off.   After that I helped when I could by giving each usable car and help when needed for auto services, repairs, new tires, etc.   They both worked as they could and finally after about 5 years the daughter graduated, the son went active in the military.   As a part timer college person he did eventually get enough hours to graduate.   Both are still working but not at all in their college learning years efforts.   I believe that my son is still somehow connected to the reserves, but not active.   My daughter took her discharge after finishing her 8 years enlistment.    

My daughter had a year of Chinese language school when she got out of basic and was in Texas taking some sort og advanced training when Iraq happened.   So she was able to forget most of her Chinese and started to work in an Arabic nation.   She was also somehow involved in some sort of secret service type of jobs.   She kept up her secret stuff after getting out of service but now she is pretty much working on her own and operating out of her home by writing reports for money income.    She seems to be doing fine with her home industry.

My son also had developed into one of the intelligence types of service.    He spent many years in England, north of London, at an airbase.   He likes England a lot.   He also spent lots of months, maybe years, in Germany.   His travels also took him into Yugoslavia, Spain, Italy, Japan, Poland, and other places I don't remember today.   He said he hoped to get back to England again and visit some sights and maybe meet some of the people again.   He had joined a rail road club and hopes to return their again too.    I think both did well in their service days.    Likely matured them both much more than sitting around in the US would have.   Neither married, maybe the better for both of them.   It seems like marriages don't do very well in the US anymore.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I think our propensity to put boots on the ground would be significantly reduced if we brought back the draft and started to send the sons and daughters of some of America's elite classes to fight our wars in the middle east.



I don't relish anyone having to uproot their lives to be involuntarily sent into a combat zone.  The ones who need the experience are the politicians who set the wheels in motion to engage us in these wars.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

Good you got it back on track Josiah, I would hate to see people forced to go fight, I'm against that.  I don't like the boots on the ground thing but as the OP wound up his post, he said "In short, the country would demand a full response and that would include you...".  Either I'm just stupid (I hear you folks agreeing, lol) but I don't think "boots on the ground" is to be taken literally.  I read some about the saying.  With all our high tech advancements, I think it's time, if we have to fight, to do it with computers, or maybe Gladiators, just two I mean.

And hey, maybe the two leaders could duke it out, I like the sound of that!  Boy would we elect different presidents then!! LOL!!


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I think our propensity to put boots on the ground would be significantly reduced if we brought back the draft and started to send the sons and daughters of some of America's elite classes to fight our wars in the middle east.



Absolutely!   These Chicken Hawks have no skin in the game..  It's not their kids or grandkids enlisting..  And like I said.. with so much income inequality and college out of reach for so many, the Military seems like a good option.  AND believe me... that's fine with these guys..  Less poor kids and minorities.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

Marriage is alive and well.  That is not to suggest divorce doesn't exist.  It is no sin to make a mistake but it is not to rectify it.


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

Marriage seems to be more and more popular, but then so does divorce! Make of that what you will.


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## BobF (Feb 11, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> I think our propensity to put boots on the ground would be significantly reduced if we brought back the draft and started to send the sons and daughters of some of America's elite classes to fight our wars in the middle east.



That never worked very well.   Those rich brats just hid in college as long as the parents could afford it.   Even when they did enter military, like John Kerry did, he only got a short 6 month tour while the Army friends of mine got to stay there a year or more.   One I remember said he had a total of two years and more than one tour to do so.    Our voluntary enlisted army is far better than drafted.   We have intelligent folks enlisting and putting their intelligence to work making our high tech tools and equipment work as they should.   No need for rich cowards or drunken slobs in our new military.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

BobF said:


> I gave my son and daughter each one year of college to start them off.   After that I helped when I could by giving each usable car and help when needed for auto services, repairs, new tires, etc.   They both worked as they could and finally after about 5 years the daughter graduated, the son went active in the military.   As a part timer college person he did eventually get enough hours to graduate.   Both are still working but not at all in their college learning years efforts.   I believe that my son is still somehow connected to the reserves, but not active.   My daughter took her discharge after finishing her 8 years enlistment.
> 
> My daughter had a year of Chinese language school when she got out of basic and was in Texas taking some sort og advanced training when Iraq happened.   So she was able to forget most of her Chinese and started to work in an Arabic nation.   She was also somehow involved in some sort of secret service type of jobs.   She kept up her secret stuff after getting out of service but now she is pretty much working on her own and operating out of her home by writing reports for money income.    She seems to be doing fine with her home industry.
> 
> My son also had developed into one of the intelligence types of service.    He spent many years in England, north of London, at an airbase.   He likes England a lot.   He also spent lots of months, maybe years, in Germany.   His travels also took him into Yugoslavia, Spain, Italy, Japan, Poland, and other places I don't remember today.   He said he hoped to get back to England again and visit some sights and maybe meet some of the people again.   He had joined a rail road club and hopes to return their again too.    I think both did well in their service days.    Likely matured them both much more than sitting around in the US would have.   Neither married, maybe the better for both of them.   It seems like marriages don't do very well in the US anymore.



I'd be very proud Bob, they sound wonderful, but they also had you to guide them.  I know what you mean about marriages, although I am fortunate to know some happy ones  I think those that are truly happy follow the old ways, older.  I wanted to join the service, and yes, I wanted to see the world, but I always liked protecting, or standing up for the underdog, so maybe so I would have been proud to serve.  I can't help but think my life would have maybe, been better for it


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## Josiah (Feb 11, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> Marriage is alive and well.  That is not to suggest divorce doesn't exist.  It is no sin to make a mistake but it is not to rectify it.



What prompted this comment Jim, it seems a little out of place in this thread? Perhaps it's a metaphor?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> What prompted this comment Jim, it seems a little out of place in this thread? Perhaps it's a metaphor?



That's what I was wondering...


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That's what I was wondering...



I should have quoted from BobF's post to wit, "   Neither married, maybe the better for both of them.   It seems like marriages don't do very well in the US anymore."  He was talking his kids in military.  I guess you just missed it?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 11, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> I should have quoted from BobF's post to wit, "   Neither married, maybe the better for both of them.   It seems like marriages don't do very well in the US anymore."  He was talking his kids in military.  I guess you just missed it?




Yeah.... ain't that something?   Wonder how that happened?       lol!!


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> Yeah.... ain't that something?   Wonder how that happened?       lol!!



I have a theory 'bout that.  'Nuff said.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

Marriage is NOT what it used to be, we now live in a world of "throw away relationships".  I know this is off the OP, but Bob is right.  Yes, there are some good marriages as I mentioned, I know many, but again, up until 100 years ago, people werent even getting divorces (and I'm not saying some shouldn't have been, just cause!).


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

Yes, it's very sad isn't it? I feel very sorry for the children in the marriage, it can seem like the end of the world to them.Divorce, like joining the  services, should be very well thought about before going ahead.


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## BobF (Feb 11, 2015)

Interesting as both had been dating in high school and college days, and even beyond.   But I think once they got into the late 20's and into the 30's, they developed more sensible ideas and had out grown the wild hormones of their youth.   In fact, my daughter was in her early 30's when she enlisted in the Army.    By then my son had been active in the Navy for a few years too.

My daughter had finished college and was working for the government as a natural biologist.   Only getting work in the summer months driving around in the Rocky Mountains, off highway, and recording what animals, birds, fish, bugs, she could observe and report on.


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## oakapple (Feb 11, 2015)

It shouldn't matter to us if our adult children ever marry or not , but we do want to think that they are happy in their chosen lives, that's the main thing.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 11, 2015)

My brother and I had no children, um, that doesn't sound right.  Allow me to start over, LOL!  Neither of us got married and had children.  Not married right away I mean.  Well, I got married at 23 I think it was.  Anyway, I think a lot of our younger folks have got a snoot full of divorce in their lives, every where they look.  I know I worried about ever bringing children into this world, it seemed so awful growing up.  I don't think marriage is for everyone, not these days, if ever.  Back in the "dark" ages, that's what a woman was for, and a man was for the providing etc etc etc.  Things have changed "amongst some" though.  I love to see a happy family, I even feel I missed out sometimes, then I remember how much I have going for me.  To each his own


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## AZ Jim (Feb 11, 2015)

A sadder site than children ending up in a home where there is a divorce is children living in a home where the parents are constantly at each others throats!  It's better for all concerned to move on from the mistake!  The old "stay together for the sake of the children" means children get a daily dose of the poison of that relationship.  In short, if you can't fix it, end it.


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## Josiah (Feb 11, 2015)

AZ Jim said:


> A sadder site than children ending up in a home where there is a divorce is children living in a home where the parents are constantly at each others throats!  It's better for all concerned to move on from the mistake!  The old "stay together for the sake of the children" means children get a daily dose of the poison of that relationship.  In short, if you can't fix it, end it.



Absolutely.


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## oakapple (Feb 12, 2015)

Perhaps a bit more work could go into fixing it though?


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## QuickSilver (Feb 12, 2015)

Still wondering how we went from burned pilots to marriage and divorce.


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## Josiah (Feb 12, 2015)

QS, right. Maybe this thread is getting a little long in the tooth.


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## Denise1952 (Feb 12, 2015)

Josiah09 said:


> Absolutely.



It's partly because picking wrong I suppose, I mean a mate, and also because the rush into marriages.  And it seems to me that folks always have an "escape" hatch because of all the bad news they hear about marriages crumbling.  I don't know how many take those vows serious at all anymore.  My grandparents sure did, and people like my friends here that are happily married did.

I don't think it is better to stay with someone when there is violence, yes, kids are better off outa there.


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## AZ Jim (Feb 15, 2015)

There are no perfect people.   There are no perfect marriages either but marriages where the partners have thought beyond the immediate to the future might appear "perfect" to an outsider.


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