# Evidence of the Afterlife - Scientific Research



## Keesha (Aug 1, 2018)

The topic was brought up today in another thread but I figured it deserved it’s very own , so this thread is about ‘near death experiences’ and the ‘afterlife.’


https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-near-death-experience-research/


Dr. Long is one of the most qualified near death experience researchers and has documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences , making it the largest scientific study ever done on the subject. He’s written a book called “Evidence of the Afterlife.”

What are your thoughts on the subject?


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## Butterfly (Aug 1, 2018)

First off, I do not think we will ever have definitive scientific proof or disproof of an afterlife because of the nature of the beast -- i.e., having been truly, finally, dead and coming back.  

My personal belief is that probably most near death experiences are just that -- "near" death, not irretrievably dead, or what my nurse neighbor calls "warm and dead."  IMHO, most of the near death experience stuff is probably the result of the brain's shutting down of processes as part of the overall process of dying and the reason the experience may be similar in many instances is because the brain's shutting down causes similar experiences in many of us, in the same way as a blow to the head or nerve damage in the same region causes similar effects in most people.  

AND, I also do not feel that even if my opinion is true, that does not prove there is *not* life after death.  I just do not feel that we have objective proof of it either way and we probably never will.


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## KingsX (Aug 1, 2018)

.

As long as it is a "near death" experience... it is not evidence of what happens after death.

Dying is a process.  It is not unusual for the brain to transmit images real or imaginary during that process.

In the Bible, the dead are often referred to as being "asleep" and no longer conscious.  The only Biblical hope of an afterlife is in the resurrection of the dead.


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## Vega_Lyra (Aug 2, 2018)

A fascinating topic.
Thank you, Keesha


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

You step on an ant. The body decomposes .

We are no different.


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## Oldpawn (Aug 2, 2018)

We will all find out soon enough, but will we know?


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## Aunt Bea (Aug 2, 2018)

I believe that when you die you are just plain dead until the resurrection/final judgment/final hour if and when it comes.

_“_*Our dead are never dead to us until we have forgotten them*_: they can be injured by us, they can be wounded; they
know all our penitence, all our aching sense that their place is empty, all the kisses we bestow on the smallest relic of their presence.”_ - George Eliot


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## Sunny (Aug 2, 2018)

Butterfly, you have summarized my opinion on this perfectly. If people claim that something is true (but unprovable), based on anecdotal accounts,  and someone else claims that there is no reason to believe something with
a complete lack of evidence other than people's stories of what they think they saw when in a semi-conscious state, well then, who is right?

I go with the idea that the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, not the person questioning it.  If someone says, "I nearly died, and I saw the tooth fairy waiting for me in a beautiful place,"  they obviously cannot prove that, so why believe it?  They may honestly think they "saw" something, but I believe it is the human mind playing its usual tricks as we lose consciousness. Maybe it's a natural kind of anesthetic that our brain supplies as we are about to die, to lull us into a kind of peace.


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## StarSong (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> The topic was brought up today in another thread but I figured it deserved it’s very own , so this thread is about ‘near death experiences’ and the ‘afterlife.’
> 
> 
> https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-near-death-experience-research/
> ...



I read this when it was first published in 2010.  It's a fascinating, well researched book that details stories of near death experiences from around the globe.  He includes people of all ages - including small children, of various religions, and all levels of religiosity from atheists on up.  Their experiences were strikingly similar, nearly always extraordinarily positive, and quite heartening to read.


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Butterfly, you have summarized my opinion on this perfectly. If people claim that something is true (but unprovable), based on anecdotal accounts,  and someone else claims that there is no reason to believe something with
> a complete lack of evidence other than people's stories of what they think they saw when in a semi-conscious state, well then, who is right?
> 
> I go with the idea that the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, not the person questioning it.  If someone says, "I nearly died, and I saw the tooth fairy waiting for me in a beautiful place,"  they obviously cannot prove that, so why believe it?  They may honestly think they "saw" something, but I believe it is the human mind playing its usual tricks as we lose consciousness. Maybe it's a natural kind of anesthetic that our brain supplies as we are about to die, to lull us into a kind of peace.



It's as same as a dream only the difference is we all dream.  We can tell what our dreams were but we can't record them.

So it's a question of trust.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> It's as same as a dream only the difference is we all dream.  We can tell what our dreams were but we can't record them.
> 
> So it's a question of trust.



But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
Are dreams real?


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

If this is a case of side effects from the brain shutting down then we could conclude that the brain works far better when it’s damaged and malfunctioning.
If 98% of the subjects tested  could recall events that happened around them with perfect accuracy, including observing things that happened around them which would be impossible for them to be aware of without use of any sensory function from the physical body, then can’t we conclude that there is something going on that we just don’t know enough about?


According to Dr. Jeffery Long, its been concluded that people see visions due to REM - rapid eye movement . 
Apparently after the heart stops the eyes and brain keep functioning for a short time and whatever visions appear are due to REM yet subjects who were totally blind had the exact same experiences. If they had no vision to begin with then how does this happen?


When people go into cardiac arrest, blood to the brain instantly stops and unconsciousness occurs. Within 10 to 20 seconds of that, the brain flat lines; meaning there is no brain activity. During this time period it is impossible to have an organized conscious experience yet people do and with complete accuracy , not dream-like hallucinations.The people that went into cardiac arrest that didn’t have NDE had recollections that were completely inaccurate.  


The explanation of how consciousness works while under anesthesia is fascinating . Apparently the  reason why we are given ventilated oxygen is because the brain is so shut down it doesn’t know enough to breathe on it’s own or the body would otherwise die. 


Electroencephalogram measurements - a system used to measure brain activity show complete disorganization when under general anesthesia and we apparently can’t dream in this state. 
Many people in this state have out of body near death experiences. If there is such little brain activity, then how can these people recall with complete accuracy what has taken place while they were under? 


For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity. This book shares  first hand accounts of people who have DIED and lived to tell about it. The research is done at The Near Death Experience Research Foundation. 


Dr. Jeffery Long  M.D., is a radiation oncologist in Louisiana and has appeared on NBC’s Today’s Show, ABC’s World News Tonight with Peter Jennings, FOX’s The O’Reilly Factor, and The Learning Channel. 


He has served on  the board of directors for the International Association for Near Death Studies and established the non profit Near Death Experience Foundation and the NDERF website which has documented accounts of over  1,600 NDE’s.


Dr. Jeffery Long has written several books including Evidence of the Afterlife and God and the Afterlife.


**********************


I personally find this very interesting information but I’ve always been fascinated with different states of consciousness like dreaming, being under general anesthetic, comas, blacking out, hypnosis etc.,


What I find most surprising is why these topics make some people  angry / or uncomfortable? 


Is it because it’s discussing the unknown or because it challenges their belief system?


I’m not trying to convert anyone here or change anyone’s mind about their beliefs. I just find it an interesting topic for conversation.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I read this when it was first published in 2010.  It's a fascinating, well researched book that details stories of near death experiences from around the globe.  He includes people of all ages - including small children, of various religions, and all levels of religiosity from atheists on up.  Their experiences were strikingly similar, nearly always extraordinarily positive, and quite heartening to read.



Thanks Starsong. I haven’t read it but I think I’m going to. He also has a book called God and the Afterlife. Like yourself, I find it fascinating.


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
> Are dreams real?



Everyone dreams.  It's absolutely essential to your health.  Some people can remember them and others can't but we all dream when we are asleep at some stage in our sleep.


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> But if someone doesn’t remember any of their dreams, to THAT person, dreaming doesn’t exist and is merely a figment of the imagination.
> Are dreams real?



Everyone dreams.  It's absolutely essential to your health.  Some people can remember them and others can't but we all dream when we are asleep at some stage in our sleep.
https://chealth.canoe.com/healthfeature/gethealthfeature/dreams-the-mysteries-of-sleep







Jump to *Do* we *dream every night*? - Yes, we *dream every night*. But *dreams* are complicated, and their contents can confound us. ... It's been estimated that more than 2 hours out of each *night's* sleep are spent *dreaming* or in a dreamlike state. It's long been believed that we only *dream* during the rapid eye movement, or REM, cycle of sleep.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Thank you Camper. I actually realize that everyone dreams. What I was getting at is that if a person doesn’t remember any dreams then it would be difficult for them to digest the idea of dreaming. Dreaming is something you need to experience in order to fully understand what they are and that they exist as a part of  human experiences. If others haven’t experienced any ‘out of the ordinary’ states of consciousness then perhaps it makes it more difficult to accept that there are different states of consciousness. 

The article was very interesting though. I appreciated the explanation of why we have nightmares and the P.T.S.D. connection to them.


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## Sunny (Aug 2, 2018)

Many of these near death visions that people have reported have been debunked. 

At the risk of repeating myself, the fact that a number of people have reported having a similar experience doesn't prove anything, except that when near death many people have similar dreams.  What about the fact
that many more people have been near death, have recovered, and do not report any visions at all?


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## C_Sally (Aug 2, 2018)

"For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity."

I agree with that. My brother is atheist but believes in a form of life after death. He believes our consciousness doesn't die, that it's akin to electricity and goes somewhere. He said it could be our very atmosphere, or dark matter.

What Keesha said reminds me of those youtube videos where people who are color blind put on those special glasses. To the color-blind, green always looked like "this" and purple like "that". They recognized green and purple by sight but to others they were seeing neither green nor purple. And some of them cried when they saw for the first time how vivid and bright green and purple appear to the non-color-blind.


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## StarSong (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> I personally find this very interesting information but I’ve always been fascinated with different states of consciousness like dreaming, being under general anesthetic, comas, blacking out, hypnosis etc.,
> 
> 
> What I find most surprising is why these topics make some people  angry / or uncomfortable?
> ...



I think a lot of people need to believe that God's love is reserved for a select few - and that they have found membership in that club.  

The idea that our Creator loves us equally would make us all um, equal.  

Imagine a world where people stopped fighting about whose religion is the "right" one because the point would be moot.  No more claiming "My country is more blessed than yours!"  No more appropriating His opinion in a dispute (God is on OUR side).   

Imagine if countries, cultures and individuals had to stop blaming their poor behavior on God because we'd know that She wants us to be kind to each other, to stop treating Her planet like a toilet, and to share the bounty that She so generously has shared with us?  What a concept.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

C_Sally said:


> "For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity."
> 
> I agree with that. My brother is atheist but believes in a form of life after death. He believes our consciousness doesn't die, that it's akin to electricity and goes somewhere. He said it could be our very atmosphere, or dark matter.
> 
> .


Basic physics - energy does not die, nor can it be destroyed. 
I also believe that energy has consciousness and like energy, it can’t die or be destroyed; it transforms!



StarSong said:


> I think a lot of people need to believe that God's love is reserved for a select few - and that they have found membership in that club.
> 
> The idea that our Creator loves us equally would make us all um, equal.
> 
> ...



So back to ‘conquer & divide ‘ mentality? :shrug:
Well I’m ok with standing out as the oddball:grin:

P.S. I just watched an interesting article on ‘life after death’ on Dr. Oz.


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## Knight (Aug 2, 2018)

Evidence of the Afterlife - Scientific Research

 "documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences."

Near death or even dead doesn't mean the brain stops functioning immediately or at least this article which is to long to cut & paste explains that up to 10 minutes there is activity

Brain activity may continue for more than 10 minutes after the body appears to have died, according to a new study.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-death-after-eeg-study-research-a7620131.html

Afterlife is a religious belief that hasn't been proven. Evidence of brain activity after death has. Since brain activity continues just like it does while asleep. I'm happy to wait until 1300 dead and buried show up to explain what to expect.


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## KingsX (Aug 2, 2018)

Aunt Bea said:


> I believe that when you die you are just plain dead until the resurrection/final judgment/final hour if and when it comes.




That's similar to the beliefs of both German reformer Martin Luther [father of the Protestant Reformation who translated the Bible into German] and English reformer William Tyndale [who translated the Bible into English and was executed for it - ironically the later King James Version is mostly taken from Tyndale's translation.]  They believed as I do, what the Bible teaches... that there is no conscious life after death until the bodily resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ. 


_*For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised.  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.*_

1 Corinthians 15:16-23


_*But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. *_

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Knight said:


> Afterlife is a religious belief that hasn't been proven. Evidence of brain activity after death has.


I’m not religious.


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## StarSong (Aug 2, 2018)

KingsX said:


> That's similar to the beliefs of both German reformer Martin Luther [father of the Protestant Reformation who translated the Bible into German] and English reformer William Tyndale [who translated the Bible into English and was executed for it - ironically the later King James Version is mostly taken from Tyndale's translation.]  They believed as I do, what the Bible teaches... that there is no conscious life after death until the bodily resurrection of the dead at the second coming of Christ.
> 
> 
> _*For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised.  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.*_
> ...



Interestingly enough, Paul's "Road to Damascus" epiphany is strikingly similar to the near death experiences reported in the OP's book reference.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Changed mind.


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## Knight (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> I’m not religious.


 I didn't post that you were. Just pointing out that religion or religious beliefs  are associated with after life as in once dead & buried there is an afterlife.

http://www.religiousmovements.org/views-on-death-according-to-different-religions/

What others believe or not has nothing to do with brain activity up to 10 minutes after actual death has been pronounced. What 1300 people experienced while still alive & the brain was still active for me is not scientific proof of anything.  Interesting to read, just doesn't convince me that when you die there is nothing more that happens.


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## Marie5656 (Aug 2, 2018)

*A few years ago I had a conversation on this topic with a younger (late 20's or so Maybe 30ish) who was a very devout Christian.  I am a passable Christian.  He did not believe in an afterlife of any sort.  We were talking about how some folks see things they see as "signs: that the departed are watching over them , ie seeing cardinals (the bird) or finding a penny, or dreaming about a departed.  He did not feel we were being sent a sign.

I gave him the but what if argument...but what if seeing a cardinal outside my window gives me comfort that maybe it is a visit, who does it hurt.  He had no answer.

I would like to believe there is a place called Heaven where we go after.  Where we meet our departed loved ones again and all.  But, as others have said here, we do not know, and those who do know are not coming back to tell us.
*


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## KingsX (Aug 2, 2018)

Marie5656 said:


> *A few years ago I had a conversation on this topic with a younger (late 20's or so Maybe 30ish) who was a very devout Christian.  I am a passable Christian.  He did not believe in an afterlife of any sort.  We were talking about how some folks see things they see as "signs: that the departed are watching over them , ie seeing cardinals (the bird) or finding a penny, or dreaming about a departed.  He did not feel we were being sent a sign.
> 
> I gave him the but what if argument...but what if seeing a cardinal outside my window gives me comfort that maybe it is a visit, who does it hurt.  He had no answer.
> 
> ...




At the time of Christ,  there were two major groups of scholars in the temple... the Pharisees and Sadducees.
The major difference between the Pharisees and Sadducess:  The Sadducees did not believe in any afterlife ever.
The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead.    Those were the only two options.  As I posted previously,
Jesus and His disciples believed in the resurrection of the dead, without which there is no afterlife given in the Bible.
A good way to remember "Sadducee"... they were "sad you see"  because they didn't believe in the resurrection.

Of course, today most churches preach a non-Biblical "going to either heaven or hell" immediately after death.
In the Bible, hell is the grave [not Dante's version of neverending punishment]   and the only immortality is in
the resurrection of the dead.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Knight said:


> I didn't post that you were. Just pointing out that religion or religious beliefs  are associated with after life as in once dead & buried there is an afterlife.
> 
> http://www.religiousmovements.org/views-on-death-according-to-different-religions/
> 
> What others believe or not has nothing to do with brain activity up to 10 minutes after actual death has been pronounced. What 1300 people experienced while still alive & the brain was still active for me is not scientific proof of anything.  Interesting to read, just doesn't convince me that when you die there is nothing more that happens.



I’m sorry! Yes you are right and that link was a great read. Thank you. 

Apparently most religions believe in the Afterlife. I don’t know as much about religion. It’s something I wish I’d taken in school while I had the chance. Today, on Dr. Oz I learned that even the Jewish believe in reincarnation. It was news to me. 

Its interesting that most religions believe in it but not many want to admit it or talk about it. 

In an anonymous poll conducted , over 70% of people showed to believe in the spirits of their loved ones. This in itself speaks volumes because it inadvertently shows that people DO actually believe in the Afterlife.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Marie5656 said:


> *A few years ago I had a conversation on this topic with a younger (late 20's or so Maybe 30ish) who was a very devout Christian.  I am a passable Christian.  He did not believe in an afterlife of any sort.  We were talking about how some folks see things they see as "signs: that the departed are watching over them , ie seeing cardinals (the bird) or finding a penny, or dreaming about a departed.  He did not feel we were being sent a sign.
> 
> I gave him the but what if argument...but what if seeing a cardinal outside my window gives me comfort that maybe it is a visit, who does it hurt.  He had no answer.
> 
> ...


Even if it’s not true, it sure is a wonderful thing to ponder about. It seems to be very common for us humans to want to believe that we live eternally and will all meet us each at one time. Perhaps that’s another reason why religion was created. There certainly was an emotional need for it.


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## Keesha (Aug 2, 2018)

Knight said:


> Evidence of the Afterlife - Scientific Research
> 
> "documented information from over 1,300 patients who have had near death experiences."
> 
> ...


This link was also interesting thank you.  In the documentation Dr. J. Long conducted one person was deceased for over 14 hours . 
There are other similar situations that were documented with patients who actually had been dead for hours and were brought back to tell about it. It’s interesting stuff.


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

Once your brain is dead.  You are dead.  Without the brain functioning you are dead.  There's no more functioning once you are gone.  It has been proven billions of times over and over again.

From dust you have come and unto dust you shall return.


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## Camper6 (Aug 2, 2018)

Keesha said:


> This link was also interesting thank you.  In the documentation Dr. J. Long conducted one person was deceased for over 14 hours .
> There are other similar situations that were documented with patients who actually had been dead for hours and were brought back to tell about it. It’s interesting stuff.



They were not dead.  It seemed like they were dead but they were not dead because if they were they could not be brought back.

There are all kinds of frozen bodies in this world hoping to be brought back to life.  It's not going to happen.


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## Butterfly (Aug 2, 2018)

My point is simply this (and  has nothing at all to do with religion or lack of it):  

The fact that people have similar experiences when in a "near" death state proves nothing about what comes after real, final, death.

I am a Lutheran and I do believe in a life after death on earth; however, I still do not believe that these similar "near" death experiences either prove or disprove it.  Being near to falling off a cliff is not actually falling off a cliff, and being "near" death is not being actually dead.  The fact that these people were resuscitated means to me that they were not really really dead and that enough life spark or whatever you care to call it was still present for them to be brought back from the edge, or "near" death.


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## StarSong (Aug 3, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> My point is simply this (and  has nothing at all to do with religion or lack of it):
> 
> The fact that people have similar experiences when in a "near" death  state proves nothing about what comes after real, final, death.
> 
> I am a Lutheran and I do believe in a life after death on earth;  however, I still do not believe that these similar "near" death  experiences either prove or disprove it.  Being near to falling off a  cliff is not actually falling off a cliff, and being "near" death is not  being actually dead.  *The fact that these people were  resuscitated means to me that they were not really really dead and that  enough life spark or whatever you care to call it was still present for  them to be brought back from the edge, or "near" death*.



Obviously  true.  However, since this is a place we are all eventually going to  land it isn't unreasonable to want to know more about what comes next.   Since we have no *scientifically verified* accounts of anyone coming back from the other side, experiences recounted by the near-dead are the closest we have thus far.  

I  happen to believe that these people have experienced a taste of the  afterlife because like, Rose, I feel the heart (actually the soul) goes  on and on.


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## Keesha (Aug 3, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Obviously  true.  However, since this is a place we are all eventually going to  land it isn't unreasonable to want to know more about what comes next.   Since we have no *scientifically verified* accounts of anyone coming back from the other side, experiences recounted by the near-dead are the closest we have thus far.
> 
> I  happen to believe that these people have experienced a taste of the  afterlife because like, Rose, I feel the heart (actually the soul) goes  on and on.



How dead do these people have to be to be verified dead? 
Do they have to come crawling out of the grave as proof? 

I agree wholeheartedly. The soul or spiritual soul of humanity lives on forever. 
For me, this not only speaks truthfully but it ‘feels right’ at a core level in MY soul. 
Its a ‘without a doubt’ instinctual thing.


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## Sunny (Aug 3, 2018)

> How dead do these people have to be to be verified dead?
> Do they have to come crawling out of the grave as proof?



There is no such thing as _how _dead. Either a person is dead or he/she is not.  They do not have to come crawling out of the grave, whatever that means. If they are declared dead by a
medical professional, and they do not "come back to life" because the medical professional was in error, then they are dead.

Being in a "near death" state is not the same thing as being dead. Otherwise, how would we feel about burying or cremating people who are in a near death state?


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## StarSong (Aug 3, 2018)

Sunny said:


> There is no such thing as _how _dead. Either a person is dead or he/she is not.  They do not have to come crawling out of the grave, whatever that means. If they are declared dead by a
> medical professional, and they do not "come back to life" because the medical professional was in error, then they are dead.
> 
> *Being in a "near death" state is not the same thing as being dead. *Otherwise, how would we feel about burying or cremating people who are in a near death state?



I don't see anybody debating this point.


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## StarSong (Aug 3, 2018)




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## Knight (Aug 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> How dead do these people have to be to be verified dead?
> Do they have to come crawling out of the grave as proof?
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly. The soul or spiritual soul of humanity lives on forever.
> ...


Aren't the soul & spirit separate in meaning?  Which if either of those live on and in what form? Since near dead has been established  isn't dead and the brain according to medical documentation can function for about 10 minutes after true death. the "scientific" proof book sounds to me like a nice money making read that gives hope to those that need to believe something takes place once we are dead.


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## Olivia (Aug 3, 2018)

Keesha said:


> How dead do these people have to be to be verified dead?
> Do they have to come crawling out of the grave as proof?
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly. The soul or spiritual soul of humanity lives on forever.
> ...



That's what I choose to believe, too. And if I'm wrong, how disappointed do you guess I'm going to be?


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## Marie5656 (Aug 3, 2018)




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## Marie5656 (Aug 3, 2018)

*Anyone ever see the 1987 movie Made in Heaven? Starred Timothy Hutton and Kelly McGillis.  Hutton plays a young man who drowns while trying to save a family from a car that went into a pond.  He ends up in Heaven. Meets a few family and neighbors.  Meets Kelly..who is a "new soul", she has never been to Earth.  They fall in love. Then she gets called to go to Earth.  He deals with the guy in charge to follow and go back as a baby as well, so he can find her.  Good story.  Sappy, but good.    Anyway, HIS version of heaven is the one I would like to go to.     *https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093467/


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## Keesha (Aug 3, 2018)

Sunny said:


> There is no such thing as _how _dead. Either a person is dead or he/she is not.  They do not have to come crawling out of the grave, whatever that means. If they are declared dead by a
> medical professional, and they do not "come back to life" because the medical professional was in error, then they are dead.
> 
> Being in a "near death" state is not the same thing as being dead. Otherwise, how would we feel about burying or cremating people who are in a near death state?


It was stated tongue in cheek 



StarSong said:


> I don't see anybody debating this point.


Nope



Knight said:


> Aren't the soul & spirit separate in meaning?  Which if either of those live on and in what form? Since near dead has been established  isn't dead and the brain according to medical documentation can function for about 10 minutes after true death. the "scientific" proof book sounds to me like a nice money making read that gives hope to those that need to believe something takes place once we are dead.


Ok.


----------



## Keesha (Aug 3, 2018)

Marie5656 said:


> View attachment 54530


 :laugh:


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## Keesha (Aug 3, 2018)

Marie5656 said:


> *Anyone ever see the 1987 movie Made in Heaven? Starred Timothy Hutton and Kelly McGillis.  Hutton plays a young man who drowns while trying to save a family from a car that went into a pond.  He ends up in Heaven. Meets a few family and neighbors.  Meets Kelly..who is a "new soul", she has never been to Earth.  They fall in love. Then she gets called to go to Earth.  He deals with the guy in charge to follow and go back as a baby as well, so he can find her.  Good story.  Sappy, but good.    Anyway, HIS version of heaven is the one I would like to go to.     *https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093467/
> 
> 
> View attachment 54532


I did see that and it was so tender and sweet. What a heart wrenching story and very well done. I’d forgotten about that movie. I quite liked it.


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## Keesha (Aug 4, 2018)

Scientists ( not science ) tend to hate anything they can’t explain without religious connotations. Anything unknown by science is often considered religious in nature. The problem being that most scientists start with the premise that there is NO GOD and that everything can be explained naturally and scientifically however man has failed miserably in doing so. 


 The Big Bang theory is full of holes , the discovery of black holes was incorrect, that Pluto is not actually a planet. We were told the oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico would destroy the coasts and poison fish for decades however the oil was somehow absorbed back into the ocean like it always does. There are oil spills that happen in the world ALL the time but since this one was a ‘man made’ spill, it was supposed to be an irreversible disaster. 


Whether you call it God or Mother Nature whatever you call it, it’s far more powerful a force than man is or ever will be. Perhaps its arrogance on our part to ever try and explain this. 


Could it be that the things man is trying to study is at a subatomic level of physics that’s out of the range of our limited five physical senses?What about our sixth sense? Our intuition? Most of us know we have it and occasionally get glimpses of it in either dreams or déjà vu. 


How do we possibly explain the ability humans have of understanding everything that’s taking place around them without ANY brain activity? Their brains have been scientifically tested and have zero possibility of understanding anything yet here we are reading  account after account of it happening. 


Isn’t it human nature to fear anything we don’t understand? If we take a trip through the last few centuries, we have an endless list of things we thought we knew for certain but were wrong. Why as humans do we HAVE to think we know everything or understand everything in order to believe it?


Science needs to look beyond what it can physically qualify and measure in order to understand. Just because something can’t be measured doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And what about things that CAN be measured? Some things we STILL have a difficulty dealing with, like water being two different types of gases. It may very well be gases at a subatomic level  but to our five senses, it definitely has fluidity that we can drown in. 


Isn’t what can be measured defined by our level of advancement? Why can’t people entertain the idea that some phenomena might in fact exist beyond the current reach of science? Isn’t curiosity, the contemplation of the unknown, philosophy, and metaphysics the lifeblood of cutting edge science? 


How long do we need to be dead in order for it to be verified as clinically dead? 
Even members here make this question seem like a ‘no brainer ‘ yet how many coffins have been dug up with nail marks under the lid? Please remember that these people had to WAIT for their DEATH to be clinically verified by a DOCTOR.


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## Sunny (Aug 4, 2018)

> Scientists ( not science ) tend to hate anything they can’t explain  without religious connotations. Anything unknown by science is often  considered religious in nature. The problem being that most scientists  start with the premise that there is NO GOD and that everything can be  explained naturally and scientifically however man has failed miserably  in doing so.



Keesha, although there are many things in your note that are inviting responses, I'll restrict mine to your first paragraph, otherwise this will turn into an encyclopedia.

Where did you get the idea that scientists "hate" anything?  Hate is totally irrelevant to scientific inquiry. And actually, some scientists are religious.  Scientists freely and often announce that at the
present time, something or other is "unknown."  That does not mean they hate it, or that religion has anything to do with it. If the cause of something is unknown, that is all it means: it is unknown.
Someday it probably will be understood, if we don't wipe ourselves out first.

I have never heard or read any scientist saying that everything can be explained scientifically. Only physical phenomena can be so explained. The philosophical underpinnings, if they exist, are outside
of the realm of science. Philosophy (you can call it religion) does not even come into the picture, from the point of view of science.  It only becomes a conflict when some people are so afraid to have
their old misunderstandings shaken up that they create an enemy out of science, in the name of religion. The Bible has lots of wisdom; it also has lots of nonsense, as it was written at a time where
many physical phenomena were not understood at all. So then you have a battle between science and ignorance. Example: the people who still insist that the earth is about 5,000 years old and was created in 6 days.

About your statement that the discovery of black holes was incorrect, where in the world did you ever get that idea?  For an eye-opening explanation of black holes, and they are truly astounding, see if you can find the series "How the Universe Works" on the Discovery channel. It's absolutely fascinating, and has one entire episode on black holes, explaining how we know they are there (billions of them!) and how they work.

Saying that something is true merely because science can't demonstrate that it isn't, is false reasoning. We can always get back to our old friend, the Tooth Fairy. Most sane people, over the age of 6 or so, do not believe in her, although science has not proven that she does not exist. Anyone claiming that there is some sort of consciousness after death has the burden of proof that this is so;
it is not up to the scientists to prove that it isn't. The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion, not the person saying, "Why should I believe it?  Prove it!"


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## StarSong (Aug 4, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Scientists ( not science ) tend to hate anything they can’t explain without religious connotations. Anything unknown by science is often considered religious in nature. The problem being that most scientists start with the premise that there is NO GOD and that everything can be explained naturally and scientifically however man has failed miserably in doing so.
> 
> 
> The Big Bang theory is full of holes , the discovery of black holes was incorrect, that Pluto is not actually a planet. We were told the oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico would destroy the coasts and poison fish for decades however the oil was somehow absorbed back into the ocean like it always does. There are oil spills that happen in the world ALL the time but since this one was a ‘man made’ spill, it was supposed to be an irreversible disaster.
> ...



Why are you picking on science, Keesha?  The very definition of that field demands that it remain separated from religion and spiritual beliefs.  Can you imagine what would be taught in our schools if that were not so?  I shudder to think...         

For something to move from a scientific theory it must pass rigorous peer review and be reproducible by another set of scientists.  What happens after death remains theoretical.  Some scientists believe in God and the afterlife, others don't.  The existence of God can (so far) be neither proved nor disproved by scientific method.  

I'm ok with that because most of us base our lives on more than science.  Or religion, for that matter.


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## Lara (Aug 4, 2018)

Keesha said:


> ...Whether you call it God or Mother Nature whatever you call it, it’s far more powerful a force than man is or ever will be. Perhaps its arrogance on our part to ever try and explain this....
> 
> ...Why as humans do we HAVE to think we know everything or understand everything in order to believe it?...
> 
> ...Science needs to look beyond what it can physically qualify and measure...


Yes, Yes, and Yes. I agree Keesha. We aren't suppose to have all the answers to creation...the who-what-when-why-where of it all. If we knew all the answers then there would be no such thing as "Faith". 

Faith is essential in order to exercise our created free-will to choose our intelligent designer- creator or choose the belief of life just happening from chaos. Faith is essential for God to have a relationship with humanity. Otherwise we would be all-knowing loveless robots that he created. You can't have a real relationship without love and respect by choice.

Plus, we are to "study God's Word to show ourselves approved" [for His Kingdom]. There's nothing to study if we know all the answers. It's part of the on-going relationship with our creator.

Of course I don't know this for sure. And of course no one else does either. But I'm exercising "faith" based on my studying and what I've experienced throughout my relationship with God and through prayer...and by faith I DO know.


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## Keesha (Aug 4, 2018)

:lofl: I’m not at all picking on science but can understand how you’d think that. 
Science is my favourite subject ever. 

I will come back and better explain my post. At the moment I’m getting ready to visit friends for an afternoon picnic. 
They just adopted a large rescue dog. Looking forward to it. 
Have a lovely day people.


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## Keesha (Aug 5, 2018)

I’m not going to answer all the questions asked by those who want to poke holes in everything I’m posting in this thread, however I will try to explain my last post the best that I can. Plus none of my questions were answered either. 


My last post was written mainly due to the fact that I was trying to explain the main reasons why science and the basic idea that there is a God, clash so bad and at the time I wrote it ( since I knew the point I was going for) it seemed to make sense but in hindsight, not so much.


Scientists don’t hate anything that they can’t explain. That is just plain, NOT TRUE. 


Where I was trying to go with all this was  where it all started that things needed to be measured accurately in order to prove something existed. I was trying to explain why science and religion seem to be at war and perhaps didn’t do a very good job at it. 


After looking at a few articles I tried to string some of the ideas into one post and didn’t quite get the results I was going for so I will try again. Of course there are black holes. I was trying to select topics that have evolved through our understanding of them and perhaps my wording didn’t work.  Now I ‘m seriously starting to understand why people warn against discussing sex, religion  or politics on forums. 


So the clash between science and religion is probably as old as the beginning of our understanding of science. Trying to understand and explain God, is almost impossible, especially to those who do not wish to understand it, for whatever reasons they have. 


Albert Einstein said when asked if he was religious : “Try and penetrate with our limited means, the secrets of nature and you will find that behind all the discernible laws and connections there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent, I am in fact, religious.” He then spent the rest of his life trying to explain what he meant. I personally like his explanation. 


The scientist usually offer no solace to believers and since Albert Einstein ( theoretical physicist ) was probably the most famous scientist of our times, his quotes have become legendary; one of his most famous ones being:


“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”


Do science and religion need to clash? 


Einstein proposes  that science and religion are harmonious because they have distinct but complimentary tasks:
science helps us understand the physical structure of the universe and religion deals with human values, morals and meanings. 


If we were to understand science and religion in this way then conflict between the two seems impossible. Science can only claim ‘what is’ not ‘what should be’ and outside of its domain value, judgements are necessary. 


Religion deals with evaluations of human thoughts and actions and cannot justifiably speak about facts and the relationships between facts. 


Conflict usually arises when a religious community insists on the absolute truthfulness on all statements recorded in the bible. This of course would mean an intervention between religion and the world of science and where the struggles between the church and science first began; where doctrines of Galileo and the findings from Darwin’s Theory, clash.


The main point of my last post was that science and religion have usually clashed because science demands measurable proof of somethings existence whereas religion requires faith and belief in something that doesn’t have ‘measurable proof.’


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## IKE (Aug 5, 2018)

I've been following this thread off and on and I really hate to even enter into these types of discussions but I suppose I'll go ahead and offer my personal take on the subject of the Afterlife and then be done with it.

I've always been a Agnostic (a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God), I believe more in evolution but I do like the thought of creationism.

At this point my personal feeling is that once you have died 'that's it', there is no afterlife.


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## Sunny (Aug 5, 2018)

I wonder if those who believe in an afterlife for humans also believe that there is one for animals.  When my beloved dog, Sunny, died, a friend who also loved her said that she was sure Sunny was having a
great time playing in the fields of doggy heaven. May have just been a nice poetic way of putting it. But I wonder if some people really believe in a heaven for animals as well?

I was certainly not going to ask her how literally she meant it!


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## fmdog44 (Aug 5, 2018)

Science knows less about the brain than it knows about the universe. Maybe and I mean maybe, we will be able to learn the truth in the distant future but until then it is speculation and theory.


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## Elsie (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm with you Lara.   (By the way, some scientists have found there is God by researching nature.)


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## Knight (Aug 5, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I wonder if those who believe in an afterlife for humans also believe that there is one for animals.  When my beloved dog, Sunny, died, a friend who also loved her said that she was sure Sunny was having a
> great time playing in the fields of doggy heaven. May have just been a nice poetic way of putting it. But I wonder if some people really believe in a heaven for animals as well?
> 
> I was certainly not going to ask her how literally she meant it!


 Good question. Since every living thing on earth is contributed to a creator and that creator is supposed to be benevolent, why would only man be selected and all other created life be excluded?


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## CeeCee (Aug 5, 2018)

What about the religions that say the only way to heaven is by accepting Jesus as your savior.  How do dogs and cats do that?

Is there a different way to heaven for animals??  Is that mentioned in the Bible somewhere?  I'm asking because although I was raised Catholic I don't think I've ever read the entire Bible.


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## KingsX (Aug 5, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Scientists ( not science ) tend to hate anything they can’t explain without religious connotations. Anything unknown by science is often considered religious in nature. The problem being that most scientists start with the premise that there is NO GOD and that everything can be explained naturally and scientifically however man has failed miserably in doing so.




Maybe, as in the media, the atheist scientists just yell the loudest.

My brother was a NASA scientist for 42 years and always a Christian.

Tesla's father was a Serbian Orthodox priest and his mother was the daughter of a Serbian Orthodox priest.
He said his mother told him everything he needed to know was in the Bible, so he read every word of it.
Once he moved to the USA,  he may have liberalized his view of religion from his strict Orthodox beginnings
but he  remained Christian.


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## Keesha (Aug 5, 2018)

I DO believe in the Afterlife & believe in God but not the biblical God that is depicted in many religions and while I respect and appreciate the reason/ need for it, I personally think religion was the worst thing to happen to God. Instead of joining us together, it has a way of dividing  and conquering us which leads to judgements and comparisons. 


I couldn’t help but notice the discrepancies in the biblical teachings and that they didn’t coincide  with the understanding of evolution. It just didn’t add up so although I’m a believer , it wasn’t from unquestionable faith from being a loyal follower that made me one but from unusual life experiences that were brought to me to learn from. 


Since I believe in the Afterlife, do I believe pets ( dogs, cats pets ) also have an Afterlife? Absolutely. I agree that anything created by our creator goes back to our creator; like dust to dust. I don’t however believe it’s a separate doggie ( pet ) heaven  but think it’s the same dimension we end up in when we die. 


For me God is nature and we ARE a part of  nature.. Life is a miraculous enough for me to be forever in awe. At the present time we don’t have the ability to prove that Afterlife exists but hopefully that day will come. 


I sincerely hope my post doesn’t offend any members whose beliefs differ from mine.


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## Knight (Aug 5, 2018)

Not scientific but this does lend some credibiity to there being an after life. For as long as I can remember women have been claiming some men behave like Neanderthals. To say something like that they must have experienced a prior life,   right?


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## Olivia (Aug 5, 2018)

Knight said:


> Not scientific but this does lend some credibiity to there being an after life. For as long as I can remember women have been claiming some men behave like Neanderthals. To say something like that they must have experienced a prior life,   right?



Or could it be that the males of the species never actually evolved?


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## KingsX (Aug 5, 2018)

IKE said:


> I've been following this thread off and on and I really hate to even enter into these types of discussions but I suppose I'll go ahead and offer my personal take on the subject of the Afterlife and then be done with it.
> 
> I've always been a Agnostic (a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God), *I believe more in evolution but I do like the thought of creationism.*
> 
> At this point my personal feeling is that once you have died 'that's it', there is no afterlife.




A creationist can believe in natural selection when God uses environment to favor one type or kind of an existing  species over another.

It's eons long "evolution", that is, a gradual continual repeated transformation of one species into a totally different species that will always remain a theory because science can't duplicate it, that is contrary to Biblical doctrine.


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## Olivia (Aug 5, 2018)

After my dad's little silky terrier passed away, that night he came to the side of my dad's bed to be put up the way he was every night before he died. He made that little barking sound as he always did to get up there to go to sleep. My dad told him to leave. I didn't like that he did that. The dog was just doing what he used to. And when the little mutt dog I was really close to died, he did come to visit me in the night. I knew because the birds in their cages had a panic attack. And when a cousin of mine passed away after a bad illness, I had a psychic tell me that he was there with a dog. The thing is that shortly before my cousin died he told me about a friend's dog that I had met visiting there had passed away.


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## Keesha (Aug 5, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Or could it be that the males of the species never actually evolved?




Oh snap! :lofl:


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## Sunny (Aug 5, 2018)

> Not scientific but this does lend some credibiity to there being an  after life. For as long as I can remember women have been claiming some  men behave like Neanderthals. To say something like that they must have  experienced a prior life,   right?



Nah, probably an insult to the Neanderthals.


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## Elsie (Aug 9, 2018)

I'm not "religious", I'm a Christian. A person whom in my heart has accepted Christ Jesus as my Lord and Savior and is trying to follow Jesus the Word in the Bible, and yet, though I often fail, I know that by His grace that He forgives me.  
Being called religious for me is a misnomer I do not appreciate. 

My heart cried in shame 
For I'd stepped away from 
The pure sown path of God.
Aching with repentance, and
Quiet desperation, I lifted my 
Hand in search of the impress
Of His grace fearing my unworthiness 
Would keep me from even the touch 
Of His fingertips.  But oh the glory that 
Overcame me, and taught me His 
Enduring love when I felt the whole of His 
Forgiving hand enclose the whole of mine.


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2018)

Elsie said:


> I'm not "religious", I'm a Christian. A person whom in my heart has accepted Christ Jesus as my Lord and Savior and is trying to follow Jesus the Word in the Bible, and yet, though I often fail, I know that by His grace that He forgives me.
> Being called religious for me is a misnomer I do not appreciate.
> 
> My heart cried in shame
> ...




  Yeah he's a really graceful dude....I think about his *Grace *all the time....Like right now all the people suffering in those Calif, fires....or all those that died in Japan , the Tsunami / earthquake....or how'bout the 230,000 + that perished in the Tsunami / quake of Indonesia "04" I believe it was?, or the whole plane full of people that disappeared on flight 370 out of Malaysia.  Yeah hell, he stepped right up with all his *Grace* on that beautiful September morning in 2001......*Graceful* my ass......Rant off !!


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## Elsie (Aug 9, 2018)

God doesn't cause tragedies.  I don't know why He allows them to happen, but I do believe that (since we're all gonna die one way or another, ) His grace is a gift of forgiveness He has for us all in order for us to obtain a life much better then the one we have now in this life.  I wonder which of those tragedies were because of human unaware (or deliberate) foolishness, and which were nature doing what is does now and then.....


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## Lara (Aug 9, 2018)

I agree Elsie. God doesn't cause tragedies (satan does that), and death is inevitable for all of us. God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He is filled with joy when His creation comes home to be with him for eternity. 

To rgp, I won't try to change your mind as your mind seems to be made up...but I just want to correct your definitions of "God's Grace" and "graceful", which are too very different words. "God's Grace" is His gift of forgiveness for believers. This Gift is a noun.  On the other hand, "Graceful" is a verb that describes a pleasing movement and fluidity like a dancer.

God gives over 100 different reasons why He allows good people to suffer (he could stop satan). Like an earthly father who trains up his children with tough love, God also does for us, His children. It's all about love and His perfect plan for our eternal life filled with fullness and meaning. All we need to do is trust and obey as best we can.


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2018)

Lara said:


> I agree Elsie. God doesn't cause tragedies (satan does that), and death is inevitable for all of us. God doesn't look at death as a bad thing. He is filled with joy when His creation comes home to be with him for eternity.
> 
> To rgp, I won't try to change your mind as your mind seems to be made up...but I just want to correct your definitions of "God's Grace" and "graceful", which are too very different words. "God's Grace" is His gift of forgiveness for believers. This Gift is a noun.  On the other hand, "Graceful" is a verb that describes a pleasing movement and fluidity like a dancer.
> 
> He states over 100 different reasons why He allows good people to suffer (he could stop satan). Like an earthly father who trains up his children with tough love, God also does for us, His children. It's all about love and His perfect plan for our eternal life filled with fullness and meaning. All we need to do is trust and obey as best we can.




  Don't go into that verbiage dance with me...grace-graceful...you know exactly what the hell I'm talking about.....

 As for your last paragraph....yeah sure sounds like allot of grace there....he allows!?!? He also allows allot of suffering in grief by the survivors of those that die....like the parents of little innocent children...Please do not try & sell me on or explain this piece of shit too me.


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## Keesha (Aug 9, 2018)

Ummmm ... excuse me rgp., could you refrain from being rude in my thread please. 
I’m sure you could get your point across in a nicer way than this^^^^:shrug:


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ummmm ... excuse me rgp., could you refrain from being rude in my thread please.
> I’m sure you could get your point across in a nicer way than this^^^^:shrug:




Ummmm your thread ? Your thread dictates how I answer?...I think not. You say rude?...I say honest. I have every right to convey my thought, & express myself in the manner I see fit.


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## Keesha (Aug 9, 2018)

No my thread does not dictate how you answer. 
I am asking you politely,  out of respect that you address others likewise .
Clearly it’s  a controversial topic that is being discussed, that’s bound to rub some members the wrong way, and so far everyone has expressed their point of view without resorting to rudeness and I don’t think it’s a lot to ask.


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## rgp (Aug 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> No my thread does not dictate how you answer.
> I am asking you politely,  out of respect that you address others likewise .
> Clearly it’s  a controversial topic that is being discussed, that’s bound to rub some members the wrong way, and so far everyone has expressed their point of view without resorting to rudeness and I don’t think it’s a lot to ask.




 And again, I do not see myself as being rude. I expressed my feelings honestly, nothing less, nothing more. And understanding that I don't think is allot to ask.


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## Gary O' (Aug 9, 2018)

You guys should be pretty much sick to death (and into the afterlife) of my thoughts

But

Yeah

Wimin have feelings beyond the typical men’s (guy men’s) comprehension






Sunny said:


> Nah, probably an insult to the Neanderthals.



No argument


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## fmdog44 (Aug 9, 2018)

Not one person that has been born and lived knows if there is anything after death. Not one. Yet we debate the ultimate void in life itself in the hope that our faith or lack of justifies our opinions. The soul is born out of faith not fact and atheists claim to know what they do not. The debate is as eternal as it is laughable. Go ahead, don't let me stop you.


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## Lara (Aug 9, 2018)

rgp said:


> Yeah he's really a graceful Dude...Graceful my ass...Please do not try & sell me on or explain this piece of shit too me.


I didn't try to "sell you" and why would I? It would just be a waste of my time. Did you not hear me say in post#70, "I won't try to change your mind as your mind is already made up". You were given the ability to choose and you've made your choice. And, yes, I agree that you have been sarcastic and rude...not very effective if you want your thoughts to have any credibility in the eyes of our friendly members here.

Btw, you still aren't using the word [God's] Grace correctly. "Graceful" ain't it, Dude


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## Keesha (Aug 9, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Not one person that has been born and lived knows if there is anything after death. Not one. Yet we debate the ultimate void in life itself in the hope that our faith or lack of justifies our opinions. The soul is born out of faith not fact and atheists claim to know what they do not. The debate is as eternal as it is laughable. Go ahead, don't let me stop you.



You don’t know with absolute certainty that this is fact.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 9, 2018)

Keesha said:


> You don’t know with absolute certainty that this is fact.


Prove it!!


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## Keesha (Aug 9, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Not one person that has been born and lived knows if there is anything after death. Not one. Yet we debate the ultimate void in life itself in the hope that our faith or lack of justifies our opinions. The soul is born out of faith not fact and atheists claim to know what they do not. The debate is as eternal as it is laughable. Go ahead, don't let me stop you.


Prove it!!!


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## Butterfly (Aug 10, 2018)

I don't believe it can be scientifically proven one way or the other -- I mean whether there is is not an afterlife -- not in the way we can prove that bacteria exist or that oxygen does.  It's a matter of personal faith and belief, or lack of it.


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I don't believe it can be scientifically proven one way or the other -- I mean whether there is is not an afterlife -- not in the way we can prove that bacteria exist or that oxygen does.  It's a matter of personal faith and belief, or lack of it.



Precisely MY point.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 10, 2018)

Butterfly said:


> I don't believe it can be scientifically proven one way or the other -- I mean whether there is is not an afterlife -- not in the way we can prove that bacteria exist or that oxygen does.  It's a matter of personal faith and belief, or lack of it.



Exactly my point.


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

Lara said:


> I agree Keesha. We aren't suppose to have all the answers to creation...the who-what-when-why-where of it all. If we knew all the answers then there would be no such thing as "Faith".
> 
> Faith is essential in order to exercise our created free-will to choose our intelligent designer- creator or choose the belief of life just happening from chaos. Faith is essential for God to have a relationship with humanity. Otherwise we would be all-knowing loveless robots that he created. You can't have a real relationship without love and respect by choice.
> 
> ...


And exactly my point in my post#50 above :cheers:


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## Camper6 (Aug 10, 2018)

Back to the topic.

Life after death.

Nothing ever disappears after being born.

You just change form.  

Wood becomes ashes in a fire and is converted into gases and ashes. Neither of which disappear.  They go into the atmosphere or into the earth.

So life is an ongoing thing in different forms.


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

Camper, members have been ON-topic, and in agreement discussing that life after death can't be proven. It is believed by faith based on our own experiences. 

Also, you said, "Nothing ever disappears after being born. You just change form....life is an ongoing thing in different forms. Wood to ashes..." 

You are talking about our physical bodies...our flesh & bones. There's more to humans than flesh & bones. Where do you think that goes?


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Lara said:


> I didn't try to "sell you" and why would I? It would just be a waste of my time. Did you not hear me say in post#70, "I won't try to change your mind as your mind is already made up". You were given the ability to choose and you've made your choice. And, yes, I agree that you have been sarcastic and rude...not very effective if you want your thoughts to have any credibility in the eyes of our friendly members here.
> 
> Btw, you still aren't using the word [God's] Grace correctly. "Graceful" ain't it, Dude



So, gods *grace* is a word , definition....you *decide* it to be? 

grace·fulˈɡrāsfəl/
_adjective_
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]


having or showing grace or elegance.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Prove it!!!




  Can you prove afterlife?.....

   Exhumation has *proven *time & time again, that after a certain amount of time, we are no more than a collection of bones in a box. That is fact.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Lara said:


> I didn't try to "sell you" and why would I? It would just be a waste of my time. Did you not hear me say in post#70, "I won't try to change your mind as your mind is already made up". You were given the ability to choose and you've made your choice. And, yes, I agree that you have been sarcastic and rude...not very effective if you want your thoughts to have any credibility in the eyes of our friendly members here.
> 
> Btw, you still aren't using the word [God's] Grace correctly. "Graceful" ain't it, Dude




   "not very effective if you want your thoughts to have any credibility in the eyes of our friendly members here."

   So we are required / expected, to placate to a certain segment of the group? I don't do that..I don't mince words....I say what I honestly feel. If you or others can't deal with it?....that's on you/them.


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## Sunny (Aug 10, 2018)

> Apparently most religions believe in the Afterlife. I don’t know as much  about religion. It’s something I wish I’d taken in school while I had  the chance. Today, on Dr. Oz I learned that even the Jewish believe in  reincarnation. It was news to me.
> 
> Its interesting that most religions believe in it but not many want to admit it or talk about it.



A while back, Keesha, you said the above. I just wanted to point out that the more modern religions do not necessarily believe in an afterlife.  I know, you said most, not all, but I just wanted to put in a
word for Unitarianism, Ethical Culture, Humanism, etc.  I'm not even sure about Judaism. The word for heaven is often used in Jewish prayers, but I don't think there is the same emphasis on rewards/
punishments, an afterlife, etc. as there is in Christianity.


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

Unitarian or Universalists are a "liberal religion" that accepts everyone's belief no matter what it is from all over the world. They say in a statement that many of the members believe there is no afterlife and many leave it as an open question. Most don't believe in Judgement Day but some do they say. 

It sounds a little like mass confusion rather than a gathering of like-minded individuals. The only thing "like-minded" about them is that they accept all "unlike-minded" individuals into their group....which is fine but not a religion imo.

Ethical Culture and Humanism are not religions and really not worth arguing over either.


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## drifter (Aug 10, 2018)

I suppose I am hopeful. I have often thought this life was the hell we read about and were condemned to this existance from another life. Maybe it is just as well if death ended it all.


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## Elsie (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp, I do not see your responses as rude.  I believe you spoke from your heart your truth.  What I saw/read that came across to me was anger, battling against a belief that upsets you.  But why battle against what you don't believe in anyway?  You believe in what you believe in, and I believe in the opposite of what you believe in.  So it is.  "Let not your heart be troubled."


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## Elsie (Aug 10, 2018)

drifter, as I heard Andy Stanley say: (Paraphrasing) "I'm not afraid of going to Heaven, I just don't wanna do what you have to do to get there.....die. lol   (Andy is the son of Rev. Charles Stanley.)


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## Sunny (Aug 10, 2018)

Lara, you may have a point about humanism not being a religion as opposed to a social philosophy.  But you are wrong about Ethical Culture, which most definitely is a religion.  Here is one definition I found:

*Ethical Culture* is a religion centered on *ethics*,  not theology, whose mission is to encourage respect for humanity and  nature and to create a better world. Members are committed to personal *ethical* development in their relationships with others and in activities involving social justice and environmental stewardship.

Unitarian-Universalism is certainly not as you described. It is a beautiful, life-encompassing religion, with churches and fellowships, ministers, weekly services, study groups, music, choirs, etc.  In fact, it pretty
much follows a Protestant model of service, although it does not have a creed or "official belief" that is mandated. That is what makes it a modern religion, IMO.  People are not told what to believe, but are encouraged to search for their own meaning in life.

It is certainly not the hodgepodge you describe; there are many common areas of belief. Someone who actually believes "sinners" go to "hell" would probably not join a UU church. Though they would certainly provide some lively discussion groups!


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## exwisehe (Aug 10, 2018)

My opinion has no importance, so I will refer to scripture's account of what happens at death, for that is God's Word, and I embrace it.

Luke 16 has an interesting account of the beggar named Lazarus at the gate who died and went to Abraham's bosom (a reference to heaven), having been carried by angels. (that's a very comforting thought - for not only do we go immediately into God's presence, we have an escort!)

Later in the chapter a rich man who had enjoyed all of life's riches, but ignored the needs of others, found himself being tormented in another place.  He wanted Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch the tip of his tongue.  But Abraham said that there was a great gulf, and no one could move from one side to the other.

This is a stunning proclamation for me, and I know that there may be some scoffing, but the bible explains that those who belong to God's kingdom have been able to "span the bridge" by having faith in Jesus.


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

Sunny said:


> A while back, Keesha, you said the above. I just wanted to point out that the more modern religions do not necessarily believe in an afterlife.  I know, you said most, not all, but I just wanted to put in a
> word for Unitarianism, Ethical Culture, Humanism, etc.  I'm not even sure about Judaism. The word for heaven is often used in Jewish prayers, but I don't think there is the same emphasis on rewards/
> punishments, an afterlife, etc. as there is in Christianity.


I did not know this. Thank you


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Lara, you may have a point about humanism not being a religion as opposed to a social philosophy....But you are wrong about Ethical Culture, which most definitely is a religion....Unitarian-Universalism is certainly not as you described...


Like I said, it's not worth discussing whether Ethic Culture is a religion or not. Some say Po-TA-toes and some say Po-ta-toes. Everyone agrees it's not important enough to argue.

My thoughts on the Unitarian church were based on their online statement I read just prior to my posting AND on my real-life visit there listening to a sermon of only current events & politics, void of any biblical inspiration. I was expecting Inter-denominational and instead found it was Non-denominational as was listed in the yellow pages (yes, it was a while ago lol). It was cold. So much for them being accepting of everyone.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Elsie said:


> rgp, I do not see your responses as rude.  I believe you spoke from your heart your truth.  What I saw/read that came across to me was anger, battling against a belief that upsets you.  But why battle against what you don't believe in anyway?  You believe in what you believe in, and I believe in the opposite of what you believe in.  So it is.  "Let not your heart be troubled."




 Well first, thank you for the clarification. However, with respect it was not anger either, I just tend to speak very profoundly . 

 Example here...you said "Let not your heart be troubled."....I believe you mean that as blessing?...Thanks again.  But...ya see too me the heart is a muscle that pumps blood...period.

   When people start touting the praises of scripture . I think of what I see around me, and i cannot share those praises. As such I rebuff them...profoundly. 

 If I have offended you,...I apologize , as it was not my intent....I believe I denounced scripture....which was my intent.


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> ...you said "Let not your heart be troubled."....I believe you mean that as blessing?...Thanks again.  But...ya see too me the heart is a muscle that pumps blood...period.


When people relate heart to love or feelings, NO one takes "heart" as a literal organ pumping blood. You must not have gotten the memo . That's okay, we all still heart you, rgp :love_heart: 

:laugh:


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> Can you prove afterlife?.....
> 
> Exhumation has *proven *time & time again, that after a certain amount of time, we are no more than a collection of bones in a box. That is fact.


Ok. What is this certain amount of time you speak of?
I’d really like to know?


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## Elsie (Aug 10, 2018)

rpg, what I detest being told is, "Think positive.  Be glad you don't have something worse...  blah blah.  But I do find comfort in asking God to help me get through some distress.  I get through them, but I don't always think I did because God helped me.  But I do believe He gave me the endurance to do so.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Keesha said:


> Ok. What is this certain amount of time you speak of?
> I’d really like to know?



That would depend on the burial itself. In the old pine box as it were,it comes much more quickly. The body decays , more rapidly, the bones are all that remains.

In modern burial, the decaying process is slowed due to [primarily] the tighter seal of the gasket / coffin. But in the end over enough time bones are all that remain. 

Hence the term, our 'remains'.

Exact years, months, weeks, days, hours ?...I do not know.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Lara said:


> When people relate heart to love or feelings, NO one takes "heart" as a literal organ pumping blood. You must not have gotten the memo . That's okay, we all still heart you, rgp :love_heart:
> 
> :laugh:




 Ah but ya see I do.....I do not relate love or feelings to the heart. Those are functions of mind. But I do appreciate the kind sentiment still the same.


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## Lara (Aug 10, 2018)

drifter said:


> I suppose I am hopeful. I have often thought this life was the hell we read about and were condemned to this existance from another life. Maybe it is just as well if death ended it all.


This life has tough trials and tribulations for many reasons in preparation for what's to come. But it's not Hell. Not even close. There is goodness and beauty to be found all around us. Sometimes you have to look a little harder but it's around.


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> That would depend on the burial itself. In the old pine box as it were,it comes much more quickly. The body decays , more rapidly, the bones are all that remains.
> 
> In modern burial, the decaying process is slowed due to [primarily] the tighter seal of the gasket / coffin. But in the end over enough time bones are all that remain.
> 
> ...




I wasn’t asking how long it takes for a human body to decompose. I was asking ‘when are we considered ‘clinically  dead’, time wise.?”


According to everything I’ve read, medical science can’t seem to agree on this. 
At one point in time it was 3 to 4 minutes, which coincided with the heart stopping since no blood is being pumped to vital organs. 


Now it appears that it’s when there is no electrical impulses in the brain, however this has proved to be FAR from the case. Documented studies have proven time and time again that the brain can die along with the rest of the body yet the patient still has full recollection of things happening around them with 100% accuracy. I’ve brought this point up time and time again yet it gets ignored. Why?


My conclusion is that medical science doesn’t know for certain when someone is declared clinically dead, hence the reason why so many coffins have had scratch marks from nails inside the lid 


If this is the case, then perhaps medical science should redefine what ‘clinically dead ‘ means but they don’t because they don’t know. If THEY don’t know and can’t explain unusual after death phenomenon, then how can any of us know for certain? 


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/46418-clinical-death-definitions.html


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Keesha said:


> I wasn’t asking how long it takes for a human body to decompose. I was asking ‘when are we considered ‘clinically  dead’, time wise.?”
> 
> 
> According to everything I’ve read, medical science can’t seem to agree on this.
> ...




   I am not clinically trained / educated, to give an accurate answer....'bottom line'...I do not know. But at 'some point' we do become a collection of bones in a box. 

 You touch on a 'somewhat' common fear...although I think it harkens back in time some what, to when people were buried in a totally different fashion, & with no body preparation . I seriously doubt ? although i do not know,... of any case where a cadaver has awakened after embalming. 

If [you] are aware of such?...please share.


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> I am not clinically trained / educated, to give an accurate answer....'bottom line'...I do not know. But at 'some point' we do become a collection of bones in a box.
> 
> You touch on a 'somewhat' common fear...although I think it harkens back in time some what, to when people were buried in a totally different fashion, & with no body preparation . I seriously doubt ? although i do not know,... of any case where a cadaver has awakened after embalming.
> 
> If [you] are aware of such?...please share.



EXACTLY. Thank you. You aren’t trained / educated enough to give an accurate answer. You do not know, neither does anyone else so how do we know there isn’t life after death if we can’t clearly define what death even is?

Thank you  for finally admitting this.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Keesha said:


> EXACTLY. Thank you. You aren’t trained / educated enough to give an accurate answer. You do not know, neither does anyone else so how do we know there isn’t life after death if we can’t clearly define what death even is?
> 
> Thank you  for finally admitting this.



 I am only admitting that I am not clinically / medically trained to know an exact time line. 
I have never heard of or witnessed anyone returning from the dead. And in my lifetime embalming has been the norm, as far as burial preparation. Once the blood is removed & the formaldehyde has replaced it....you're dead....period.

Name one person that you know of...even by just rumor...that has returned from the dead.


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## Camper6 (Aug 10, 2018)

Lazarus.  In the Bible.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Camper6 said:


> Lazarus.  In the Bible.




If you believe the bible...I do not. 

And the question was name one person she [knows of] . Not some fictional story in a book.


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## Keesha (Aug 10, 2018)

rgp said:


> I am only admitting that I am not clinically / medically trained to know an exact time line.
> I have never heard of or witnessed anyone returning from the dead. And in my lifetime embalming has been the norm, as far as burial preparation. Once the blood is removed & the formaldehyde has replaced it....you're dead....period.
> 
> Name one person that you know of...even by just rumor...that has returned from the dead.


But then it goes right back to ‘ define dead. ‘ Without a proper definition, how can the questions of Afterlife possibly be answered.  
I’m not answering your question because it’s irrelevant to the topic.

Did you read that link? It’s actually very interesting.


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## rgp (Aug 10, 2018)

Keesha said:


> But then it goes right back to ‘ define dead. ‘ Without a proper definition, how can the questions of Afterlife possibly be answered.
> I’m not answering your question because it’s irrelevant to the topic.
> 
> Did you read that link? It’s actually very interesting.




 Well, for me...dead is when the doc / a doc, announces that we are in fact dead.

 Absolute dead is when they drain the blood & replace it with the formaldehyde .

 That process sometimes takes as long as bureaucracy dictates, but once complete, it's over.

 How can you say that my question is irrelevant ? when it goes directly to the question of the thread? So once again, have you known personally , or known of, anyone that has come back to life after , being pronounced dead, embalmed , and buried? If you have...I would surely like to meet them.


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## Olivia (Aug 10, 2018)

This is why religious or otherwise belief in more than just material life is not a good thing to discuss in a secular board. I am a believer but in no way do I think I will ever persuade a non-believer in a forum like this. However, I do understand the point of it when sharing among ourselves that have those beliefs and interests. If then, just got to take the roses with the thorns in such a case.


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## hearlady (Aug 11, 2018)

C_Sally said:


> "For myself, this is compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity."
> 
> I agree with that. My brother is atheist but believes in a form of life after death. He believes our consciousness doesn't die, that it's akin to electricity and goes somewhere. He said it could be our very atmosphere, or dark matter.
> 
> What Keesha said reminds me of those youtube videos where people who are color blind put on those special glasses. To the color-blind, green always looked like "this" and purple like "that". They recognized green and purple by sight but to others they were seeing neither green nor purple. And some of them cried when they saw for the first time how vivid and bright green and purple appear to the non-color-blind.


I agree with your brother. I think the spirit is a life force that leaves the body and is incorporated into the "pulse" of the universe.


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## Sunny (Aug 11, 2018)

I don't understand all this obfuscation about what "dead" is.  "Dead" is not some kind of mystical, spiritual word. It's a description of a physical entity that no longer breathes, has no brain activity, or in a plant,
ceases to grow, respire, or have photosynthesis. In other words, anything that permanently stops living is dead.

The fact that some people have mistakenly been called dead when they are not, does not in any way mean we cannot properly define death. Of course we can.


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## Lara (Aug 11, 2018)

Sunny said:


> ..."Dead" is not some kind of mystical, spiritual word. It's a description of a physical entity that no longer breathes, has no brain activity...anything that permanently stops living is dead.


Yes, of course our physical bodies die. But there is a difference between PHYSICAL death and SPIRITUAL death (or eternal life). 

God says He will give us new bodies. I just hope the new bodies are when we were in our prime


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## fmdog44 (Aug 11, 2018)

What _creates_ faith? If a person was born and lived 100% alone for his/her entire life without any outside input from any source what questions would that person have on existence? What if the same circumstance was applied to a man & woman that had two children? Would the questions be the same?


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## fmdog44 (Aug 11, 2018)

Explain why prior to the rise of Christianity and other "established" religions man had so many different "gods" to worship. They simply made decisions that God XYZ existed because......?


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## Keesha (Aug 11, 2018)

Sunny said:


> I don't understand all this obfuscation about what "dead" is.  "Dead" is not some kind of mystical, spiritual word. It's a description of a physical entity that no longer breathes, has no brain activity, or in a plant,
> ceases to grow, respire, or have photosynthesis. In other words, anything that permanently stops living is dead.
> 
> The fact that some people have mistakenly been called dead when they are not, does not in any way mean we cannot properly define death. Of course we can.




If the term ‘dead’ is so straight forward then why is it that even ‘experts’ have a difficult time defining what it is?
If we were to use the definition you just gave us then there have been countless examples of dead people who have complete conscious awareness. How does this happen then?


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## StarSong (Aug 11, 2018)

FMDog Because once humans developed language we also developed the ability to ask philosophical questions and to formulate answers to those questions.  

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US and the world.


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## Elsie (Aug 11, 2018)

rgp, when something very painful happens to you, where does your pain manifest itself--in your chest or (only) in your mind?


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## Elsie (Aug 11, 2018)

Why so many "different" gods?  It seems that all peoples find they need a higher power than themselves to help them get through life's troubles.  Many cultures pick a human man they esteem, and worship him, follow his rules/advice on & on.  Some worship nature......  Personally, learning and reading the Book that gives credence to the why of our existence makes so much good common sense I felt within me this common sense and so God of the Bible I believe is the only true/real God of all.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 11, 2018)

Elsie said:


> Why so many "different" gods?  It seems that all peoples find they need a higher power than themselves to help them get through life's troubles.  Many cultures pick a human man they esteem, and worship him, follow his rules/advice on & on.  Some worship nature......  Personally, learning and reading the Book that gives credence to the why of our existence makes so much good common sense I felt within me this common sense and so God of the Bible I believe is the only true/real God of all.



To me, I think there is some sort of creator but to think another human being can dictate the true answer is absurd. The Earth was created in six days. Believe it?


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## rgp (Aug 11, 2018)

Elsie said:


> rgp, when something very painful happens to you, where does your pain manifest itself--in your chest or (only) in your mind?



I feel pain where it hurts...bang my knee? my knee hurts.

I'm not sure I understand your question.....can you clarify ?


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## rgp (Aug 11, 2018)

Keesha said:


> If the term ‘dead’ is so straight forward then why is it that even ‘experts’ have a difficult time defining what it is?
> If we were to use the definition you just gave us then there have been countless examples of dead people who have complete conscious awareness. How does this happen then?




Who are these 'experts'...that cannot define dead?

 I think you are the only person that doesn't get it.

  "there have been countless examples of dead people who have complete conscious awareness."

 Can you name them?

 If they are dead...they are not aware of anything.

  If they are aware ?....they are not dead.


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## rgp (Aug 11, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Explain why prior to the rise of Christianity and other "established" religions man had so many different "gods" to worship. They simply made decisions that God XYZ existed because......?




  I agree, & this is part of why I do not believe any of it.

   Mankind has too many God's & way too many religions.

  They all cannot be right...therefore in my opinion they must be all wrong.

  History tells us that the leading cause of war, is religion. Hell, this country was founded / settled [in part] by people fleeing what they felt was religious persecution / and the demands of the church of England.

 Now we have a religion [Islam] killing & staging war because they think all others are infidels . And they are promoting Sharia law....{another, their way or the highway} 

On top of that , so much of what the bible says / teaches has to do with same {my way or the highway} thinking. Do this or dammed to hell, don't that or you will reap this & or that horrible end, etc, & so on.

So they are threatening me with all sorts of horrible things !! And they want me to join them??!! And worship them / him?!! ........I don't think so.


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## Elsie (Aug 11, 2018)

I meant emotionally painful.  I feel pain in my chest when it happens to me....sure feels like an heart ache to me.    The brain is what tells you when you are in physical pain somewhere.  It's a kind of pain different from heart ache. ...


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## rgp (Aug 11, 2018)

Elsie said:


> I meant emotionally painful.  I feel pain in my chest when it happens to me....sure feels like an heart ache to me.    The brain is what tells you when you are in physical pain somewhere.  It's a kind of pain different from heart ache. ...



OK, now i understand...respectfully though I disagree. I do not believe in heartache . But!...you do, and i am sorry that you have ever felt it.

Consider this...[_I am in no way trying to change your mind]_...but just consider.

If for example we loose a loved one.....some people experience anxiety . That is a brain reaction, that  triggers all sorts of things. Rise in BP, drop in OX concentration , accelerated h/beat...etc. Science says this is what causes chest pain. It starts in the brain....not the heart. As such, it is the result of a conscious thought...something we should control.

Ya see, I'm not so sure there is even love....there is lust, there is deep caring/concern...but love?...I question. 

If it really exist as Hallmark would have us believe?.....Why do we divorce, ? why do we kill ? why do we cheat ? Mothers kill their babies, babies kill their mothers, wives kill husbands, husbands kill wives, etc & so-on. And these are the very people that are *supposed* to love the deepest.........jmo


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## Elsie (Aug 11, 2018)

"...It starts in the brain........(a feeling of pain in the chest that seems to be in the area of the heart....) not the heart. As such, it is the result of a conscious thought...something we should control...)

Conscious thought?  Like if one injures their knee & feels pain it's is felt only because of conscious thought?  Must be the reason why anesthesiologists put one unconscious for surgery.  In case they can't shut off their brain.  

Lust and love are often mistaken one for the other.  For me, if I were to be rejected by someone I had lust for, my brain wouldn't tell me I my chest aches.  But if it was "love", I'd have that ache without my brain telling me so.

I do believe that a person can shut off the emotion called love, to avoid possibly going through love lost.  But I also believe there is love and it comes on its own.  I don't believe the brain tells one they're in love, or are going to 'fall' in love.  It just happens.


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## Olivia (Aug 11, 2018)

> If it really exist as Hallmark would have us believe?.....Why do we divorce, ? why do we kill ? why do we cheat ? Mothers kill their babies, babies kill their mothers, wives kill husbands, husbands kill wives, etc & so-on. And these are the very people that are *supposed to love the deepest.........jmo*



Psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissism.


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## Sunny (Aug 11, 2018)

Keesha, 



> If we were to use the definition you just gave us then there have been  countless examples of dead people who have complete conscious awareness.  How does this happen then?



HUH?  There are people with no brain activity who have "complete awareness?"  In what universe is this true?


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## Olivia (Aug 11, 2018)

Do we as human beings think we really are capable of understanding everything?  Any of you ever read the book "Flatland" or see the movie? 

https://youtu.be/N0WjV6MmCyM


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## Lara (Aug 11, 2018)

fmdog44 said:


> Explain why prior to the rise of Christianity and other "established" religions man had so many different "gods" to worship. They simply made decisions that God XYZ existed because......?


Because they intuitively knew man could not have created all this themselves and it couldn't have come from nowhere. They knew that good and evil existed. They knew that man had been created with a choice between good and evil and that man had a sin nature. Sin is what caused all the confusion. Thus many God's until God put his words in writing starting with the 10 commandments in stone. I could go on and on but lucky for everyone, I'll refrain


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## Lara (Aug 11, 2018)

Olivia said:


> Do we as human beings think we really are capable of understanding everything?


Right on. God is not the author of confusion but He makes it clear that He will not reveal everything until His perfect timing. And according to His perfect plan.


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## Elsie (Aug 11, 2018)

Lara


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2018)

Olivia, I did read the book Flatland many years ago, and found it intriguing. Who knows how many dimensions actually exist?  I'm sure our lack of understanding greatly exceeds our understanding of the
universe.  But we are getting closer and closer to understanding how it all works. Science is bringing us closer. (Carl Sagan's explanation was popular science, not religion.)  

I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but I'll say it one more time: religion insists that some ancient mystics, priests, theologians, etc. had access to some ultimate truth, which we are asked to believe on
"faith."  Religion has no scientific proof at its disposal; it may sometimes agree with science, often not. It just requires faith in the "wisdom" of the ancients. In the examples given in this thread, it claims to know
the mind of God, whoever or whatever that deity is supposed to be.

Moses presented the wandering Jewish tribe with the Ten Commandments (which he obviously wrote and engraved in stone), and claimed that God had written them. His credulous followers, or some of them, anyway, actually believed him. They were probably too blown away by having narrowly escaped from slavery to engage in much logical analysis.  The religionists among us are still peddling that same bill of goods.
No logical thinking, please, you've got to accept it on "faith," because I tell you it's true.

Science requires proof, and is constantly subject to examination and revision when necessary. Faith and belief don't enter into the picture, except for the belief that something has to be proven in the real,
physical world to be believed. As the Flatland video demonstrates, we are trapped in the three dimensions we live in (four if you count time as a dimension), and if other dimensions exist, we cannot even
imagine them. All we can say is, "What if...?" But the religionists can't imagine them either, and their autocratic insistence that THEY have the right answers (as opposed to all the other religions and science) goes against the grain of rational thinking.

Thanks for the video; it was nice to see good old Carl again.


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## StarSong (Aug 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Olivia, I did read the book Flatland many years ago, and found it intriguing. Who knows how many dimensions actually exist?  I'm sure our lack of understanding greatly exceeds our understanding of the
> universe.  But we are getting closer and closer to understanding how it all works. Science is bringing us closer. (Carl Sagan's explanation was popular science, not religion.)
> 
> I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but I'll say it one more time: religion insists that some ancient mystics, priests, theologians, etc. had access to some ultimate truth, which we are asked to believe on
> ...



Agree completely.  

By the way, after watching the Carl Sagan video I did some digging and found this short animated gem of his explaining the book:


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## Elsie (Aug 12, 2018)

"Science requires proof, and is constantly subject to examination and revision when necessary"....  Constantly subject to examination and revision--and there ya go.  Poor Carl, he studied science for so long and hard yet had to face the never answerable.  What an ego killer.  If I was a scientist, it would drive me up the wall to believe in God because that would mean God already knows that all the research I'm working on for the why of this and that in the universe is *already* known by God. lol


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2018)

rgp said:


> Who are these 'experts'...that cannot define dead?
> 
> I think you are the only person that doesn't get it.
> 
> ...




Who are the people who cannot define what dead is?
Ive been adding the links to the references but clearly you aren’t interested so aren’t reading. 
I am certainly NOT the only person who doesn’t get it.
When I’ve got some time I’ll try and explain in terms that you might understand . 
If not, that’s ok. 
We clearly aren’t going to believe the same thing and I’m oh with that.


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> Keesha,
> 
> 
> 
> HUH?  There are people with no brain activity who have "complete awareness?"  In what universe is this true?



In all kinds of hospitals. Evidence that’s been documented. 
Person dies. Heart stops- no brain activity - some for over 14 hours. 
If there is no brain activity, how can these ‘dead bodies’ have the awareness with 100% accuracy of the things that happened while  they were clinically dead. Clinically dead by definition of doctors and scientists alike. 
Isnt it a bit convenient that if things happen after a person is clinically dead according to what is referred to as DEAD, people instantly state that they obviously weren’t dead. 

In my opinion, the definition of clinically dead is NOT absolute.


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## Elsie (Aug 12, 2018)

In three ads for 3 different T V westerns, 3 of the main characters in each say, "Dead is dead."  Hmmp. what did they know?  lol  But then their shows were before this forum's different views on "Dead is dead" were around for them to read.


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## StarSong (Aug 12, 2018)

I understand what you're talking about, Keesha.  There have been plenty of documented cases where all evidence of life has ceased.  Certainly the doctors can detect zero consciousness or brain activity, and some time later the patient comes back to life and can report on all manner of things that occurred while he/she was "dead" - or at least dead to the world.  They often report seeing things that happened on other floors of the hospital (or wherever their bodies happen to be), AKA out of body experiences.  Many meet God, relatives, friends or pass through tunnels, bright lights, etc.  

People who (by all modern medical tests) appear to be dead don't always remain in that condition.  Maybe that's a better way to phrase this.


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2018)

Elsie said:


> In three ads for 3 different T V westerns, 3 of the main characters in each say, "Dead is dead."  Hmmp. what did they know?  lol  But then their shows were before this forum's different views on "Dead is dead" were around for them to read.



Yeah.Theres a big difference between medical science and television programs Elsie 
That really  IS comical:laugh:


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2018)

The fact that doctors can't detect brain activity doesn't mean that the brain has died. It just means that the medical tests are not sensitive enough to detect the activity that still goes on, though at a very minimal level.
Sorry to rain on the parades of some here, but the fact is, dead is dead. People who appear to come back to life have not been dead, they have been in a near-death state.

Elsie, in 3 ads for 3 different westerns, 3 of the main characters in EACH say, "Dead is dead?"  That sounds kind of dubious to me. Can you name the westerns? Just curious.


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## StarSong (Aug 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> The fact that doctors can't detect brain activity doesn't mean that the brain has died. It just means that the medical tests are not sensitive enough to detect the activity that still goes on, though at a very minimal level.
> Sorry to rain on the parades of some here, but the fact is, dead is dead. People who appear to come back to life have not been dead, they have been in a near-death state.



Yes, these are near death experiences we're talking about.  Obviously these people weren't actually - or at least permanently - dead.


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2018)

Sunny said:


> The fact that doctors can't detect brain activity doesn't mean that the brain has died. It just means that the medical tests are not sensitive enough to detect the activity that still goes on, though at a very minimal level.
> Sorry to rain on the parades of some here, but the fact is, dead is dead. People who appear to come back to life have not been dead, they have been in a near-death state.
> 
> Elsie, in 3 ads for 3 different westerns, 3 of the main characters in EACH say, "Dead is dead?"  That sounds kind of dubious to me. Can you name the westerns? Just curious.



Oh ok. So let me get this right. There is such minimal brain activity that it doesn’t show up accurately on clinical tests yet the deceased patients have 100% accuracy on information given?

Something clearly doesn’t add up.


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## Keesha (Aug 12, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Yes, these are near death experiences we're talking about.  Obviously these people weren't actually - or at least permanently - dead.




So we have people declared clinically dead by science but they were mistaken? :laugh:
How convenient.


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## StarSong (Aug 12, 2018)

I don't know or understand what their status is.  "Dead" implies a permanent cessation of life, not an interrupted one.  Perhaps we don't have a proper word to describe this state.  Researchers and their books - including the one you mentioned in your first post - term them "near death" experiences.


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## Sunny (Aug 12, 2018)

> Oh ok. So let me get this right. There is such minimal brain activity  that it doesn’t show up accurately on clinical tests yet the deceased  patients have 100% accuracy on information given?
> 
> Something clearly doesn’t add up.



What 100% accuracy on what "information given?"  

Let's all step back and take a long, hard look at this question. Our news media are frantically plunging into every little thing that takes place, trying to outscoop each other. Anything the slightest bit exciting, scary, newsworthy, etc. gets into the news immediately. It's all over the Internet, on every TV channel, and in the newspapers.

Now. do you really believe that dead people are coming back to life, they are really, truly dead until suddenly, they aren't any more, and we haven't heard the slightest squeak from the media about it?  Just on a common
sense level, really?

Today's Washington Post had a huge 2-page spread detailing the suffering of one of those kids who got shot in Parkland last year. He got a bad injury in his foot. This was considered newsworthy. But somehow, all these
dead people who had perfect, 100% consciousness while they were dead, have returned to life, and not a syllable about it in the paper?

Think about it.


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## fmdog44 (Aug 13, 2018)

Wait for Walt Disney to thaw out. He will explain what there is after life but you will need to go to a theater to find out.


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## Elsie (Aug 13, 2018)

Sunny said:


> The fact that doctors can't detect brain activity doesn't mean that the brain has died. It just means that the medical tests are not sensitive enough to detect the activity that still goes on, though at a very minimal level.
> Sorry to rain on the parades of some here, but the fact is, dead is dead. People who appear to come back to life have not been dead, they have been in a near-death state.
> 
> Elsie, in 3 ads for 3 different westerns, 3 of the main characters in EACH say, "Dead is dead?"  That sounds kind of dubious to me. Can you name the westerns? Just curious.



The ads were short, each from a leading character saying it, and taken from a scene in their particular show.  One western might have been "Laramie".  I don't remember which westerns.  Obviously these 'tough' men must have said it after someone got shot to death.   layful:


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