# The Homeless



## imp (Dec 8, 2015)

I was horrified by the numbers presented for Chicago. Posted it. Thus far, many "views', no opinions. So I looked further.
This gives insight into the depth of the situation:   http://www.lpcsonline.org/homelessness

Search by "number homeless by city" provided better understanding of the ever-changing demographics. Numbers shown were lower. Still, quite frankly, most frightening.

Chicago is said to often lead with the highest percentage homeless. Living in Phoenix, we encountered homeless population which "migrated" by season, wintering there and summering north and Midwest. How they funded excursions we did not determine.

This is a frightening and serious socio-economic thing as far as I am concerned.   imp


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

And those are just the "official" numbers - they don't include the homeless that never make it to a shelter or food bank. 

It's a huge problem in this country, yes - but we occupy our time and spend our money taking in refugees instead of caring for our own. Homeless shelters and other charities are going begging.


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## Ralphy1 (Dec 9, 2015)

There will be a lot of media coverage of soup kitchens at this time of year with some helpers wearing Santa caps and then not much after the holidays...


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

Exactly. "Be of good cheer" and forget the rest of the year.

I was just looking at PA stats - supposedly we have had an increase in homeless populations of 1.6% but the number of homeless supposedly dropped 2.3% nationwide.

Again, the government got these numbers by doing an annul head-count, much like estimating the number of bucks and does during hunting season - not exactly precise numbers.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 9, 2015)

...we could cut the budget of the military by a third and feed and house every homeless person in the country.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 9, 2015)

Here are the top 10 cities in the USA with the highest homeless rates.  Resources gathered from the National Alliance to End Homelessness and The University of Maryland.

http://www.thrivedc.org/blog/ten-us-cities-with-high-homeless-populations/

10. Boston, MA
 9. Denver, CO
 8. Detroit, MI
 7. New York, NY
 6. Philadelphia, PA
 5. Portland, OR
 4. San Francisco, CA
 3. Seattle, WA
 2. Tuscon, AZ
 1. Washington, DC


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

Boston and Denver are a surprise to me - the others, not so much.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Boston and Denver are a surprise to me - the others, not so much.




At least not the bottom 99% of the people...  The top1% who have bought elections are happy as clams...


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## Don M. (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Boston and Denver are a surprise to me - the others, not so much.



Yes, Denver is seeing a major rise in Homeless people.  Many are blaming the legalization of Marijuana for the increased numbers.  We were there this past Spring, visiting relatives, and there was an ongoing situation with these people setting up their "encampments" all over the various city parks, etc.  

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26216037/legal-pot-blamed-some-influx-homeless-this-summer


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## Debby (Dec 9, 2015)

In looking at your link Don, one thing I noticed was that the young fellow given as an example, explained that he didn't want to go on pharmaceuticals for his seizures.  That made me wonder than, how many people are homeless because of debilitating depression or chronic anxiety issues.  People dealing with things like that might not be wandering the streets and mumbling up into the sky, but instead they are withdrawing from a world that they feel unable to deal with.  I've heard that many people prefer smoking pot to taking those drugs that doctors prescribe, because it helps them feel 'normal'.  So if there are more homeless in Colorado, maybe there are also more people there who are dealing with their depression and anxiety through non-pharmaceutical means.

I came across the following video which is a pretty good depiction of what it's like to live with depression.  

[video]http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/12/08/living-with-depression_n_8752710.html[/video]

Seems to me that if every day felt like the woman in the video and smoking a joint helped minimize that, moving to Colorado might be a solution.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> And those are just the "official" numbers - they don't include the homeless that never make it to a shelter or food bank.
> 
> It's a huge problem in this country, yes - but we occupy our time and spend our money taking in refugees instead of caring for our own. Homeless shelters and other charities are going begging.



Exactly. With 90 some odd million people not working or working a "real" job this where a lot of focus should be. Throw in real estate now being used/treated as a commodity & investment many are screwed for life.

 Not a big issue yet but I'm starting to see not just an acceptance of homelessness or people with true problems but an acceptance of homelessness as actual tool to survive, save money etc-not big yet but I starting to see a "misuse" or "mis identifying"  as being homeless themselves which dilutes or takes away from those who really really need assistance.


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## fureverywhere (Dec 9, 2015)

...we could cut the budget of the military by a third and feed and house every homeless person in the country. 

If anyone looks at Christie's lavish spending on himself, and he's not the only one. He could keep the weight off by sending half of his food consumption to say Newark. But I'm not surprised by the list at all. Mental health services are hard to come by as are medications that would allow people to function. Treating addiction as a crime instead of an illness. Affordable safe housing and more outreach programs. Around here they spend more building luxury condos than on social services...and you know there are homeless people tucked all over.


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## BobF (Dec 9, 2015)

I remember as a young person there were then many mental care homes in the US.   But somewhere back in the fifties or sixties it became something that the politicians determined to be cheapening for too many folks and so many of those mental health places were closed.   Somehow, those people were distributed and protected from the shame.   Now we are hearing that maybe those were not such good ideas and we need to have better holding places for the mental patients.

A while back I posted of one person that was living as a homeless person.   He had no problems with holding two jobs and sleeping in the cab of his small pickup truck, summer and winter.   He had a long term goal of paying off his Wyoming land so he could retire there one day and have a home and some animals.   Not all homeless are needing mental health care nor are they just crazed and needing help.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 9, 2015)

Budget cuts literally obliterated our Mental Health system closing many State facilities..  These people had little choice but to turn to the streets.


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

QS: Your post with _rates _is significant because it makes more sense than stating total numbers of homeless. I think that's why a few smaller cities are included, such as Detroit, with around 700,000 or so pop.

I might try to come up with percents. I simply cannot believe 5% for Chicago. Seems impossible.   imp


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## QuickSilver (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> QS: Your post with _rates _is significant because it makes more sense than stating total numbers of homeless. I think that's why a few smaller cities are included, such as Detroit, with around 700,000 or so pop.
> 
> I might try to come up with percents. I simply cannot believe 5% for Chicago. Seems impossible.   imp



If you notice.. Chicago is NOT on that list..


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## Jackie22 (Dec 9, 2015)

Yep, budget cuts to the mental ill and all social services, and then people can't understand why there are so many homeless....


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## The Inspector (Dec 9, 2015)

Wars do not help either. After killing people and seeing friends killed it can be very difficult to get back to "Home"


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## fureverywhere (Dec 9, 2015)

Something else to think about when you see the Home Depot icon all over the place. Big corporate doesn't care about it's worker ants. Back in the day of private industry if someone was in a bad way financially maybe the boss could give the person a shot at more hours, additional assignments for a raise...something, anything. I remember when I worked there, a sign in the break room one day. " One of your co-workers is about to become homeless, any help would be appreciated". So instead of the machine helping this person they were asking co-workers to pass the hat. Decent hours and decent wages...you shouldn't have to become homeless and employed. Plus I could just see them firing him eventually anyway. Yes we know you're living in your car, but we have a business to run and you have to be here on time...the individual's situation has no meaning to them.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

Don M. said:


> Yes, Denver is seeing a major rise in Homeless people.  Many are blaming the legalization of Marijuana for the increased numbers.  We were there this past Spring, visiting relatives, and there was an ongoing situation with these people setting up their "encampments" all over the various city parks, etc.
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26216037/legal-pot-blamed-some-influx-homeless-this-summer



That's interesting, Don - I wondered if that had anything to do with it.

That wouldn't apply to Boston, though - they've decriminalized it to a degree but it's still illegal.


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## WhatInThe (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> That's interesting, Don - I wondered if that had anything to do with it.
> 
> That wouldn't apply to Boston, though - they've decriminalized it to a degree but it's still illegal.



It's seems like some cities are ignoring by making the penalties so minimal it's not worth it. What was an arrest or high dollar fine is probably like a parking ticket. Keeps both sides of the fence happy.

But in Denver one must wonder if people are admitting coming to Colorado for pot tourism that could become a problem. They might not be in jail a preferred activity but now the problem is fund and live with it.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> It's seems like some cities are ignoring by making the penalties so minimal it's not worth it. What was an arrest or high dollar fine is probably like a parking ticket. Keeps both sides of the fence happy.



Well, from the NORML site on Massachusetts it seems the fines are still pretty stiff for anything over an ounce. 



> But in Denver one must wonder if people are admitting coming to Colorado for pot tourism that could become a problem. They might not be in jail a preferred activity but now the problem is fund and live with it.



Pot tourism was I believe always on the minds of the people pushing for legalization. It's a big part of what brings in those tax dollars - in the last fiscal year pot taxes brought in $70 million, more even than alcohol sales. Why can't they use some of that money for the homeless?


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> ...we could cut the budget of the military by a third and feed and house every homeless person in the country.
> 
> If anyone looks at *Christie's lavish spending on himself, *and he's not the only one. He could keep the weight off by sending half of his food consumption to say Newark. But I'm not surprised by the list at all. Mental health services are hard to come by as are medications that would allow people to function. Treating addiction as a crime instead of an illness. Affordable safe housing and more outreach programs. Around here they spend more building luxury condos than on social services...and you know there are homeless people tucked all over.



You are not pleased with Chris Christie, too much? Perhaps a better "position" for him would be as President!   
imp


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## fureverywhere (Dec 9, 2015)

Um, seeking asylum in Wales?


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> If you notice.. Chicago is NOT on that list..



Of course I noticed. That's why it came to mind that smaller cities with lower pop. but higher RATES of homelessness means those cities exceed 5%...........Incredible for any city, in my book. My wife & I were made homeless bythe Reagan Recession, in 1982, my employer laid me off on her _birthday! _A nice present I brought her home at 11:00AM that day. She, too, had been laid off previously. Job search, several months, zip. Dumped our nice house, traded my 1966 Mustang for a big yellow school bus, which we lived out of up in the woods of Northern AZ. How cold it was in that thing, they had no insulation at all. 

Applied for food stamps, unemployment benefits ran out, we were up in Indian Country, Navajo County, a nice Mr. Sandoval, Supervisor of the Social Services there explained two reasons for no benefits, with a snicker: we had raised dough to live on selling personal belongings, AND "your skin is the wrong color". Not Native American. Would have been no questions asked benefit-eligible had I been.

Wonder at all why I question that big prejudice pendulum swinging to excess in both directions?  imp


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## Don M. (Dec 9, 2015)

Seems to me that if every day felt like the woman in the video and smoking a joint helped minimize that, moving to Colorado might be a solution.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I would imagine that a large percentage of the Homeless are suffering from some form of mental illness, or depression, etc.  Given the sorry state of our Mental Health Care anymore, there few services available to help them.  I am fully in favor of Medical Marijuana...it would probably obsolete most of the Pain Pills that Big Pharma foists on the public, but I don't think Recreational Marijuana is a good idea.  The Denver folks are saying that their auto insurance rates are starting to climb because of the increased number of car wrecks in the State.  Drunks are bad enough but Druggies behind the wheel can only add to the problems.


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## Debby (Dec 9, 2015)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/

According to the Washington Post article, since it was legalized in 2012, highway fatalies are at near historic lows.



http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2012/4/prweb9375729.htm?PID=6149635

NEW YORK (PRWEB) APRIL 06, 2012In a recent study, 4AutoinsuranceQuote.com, a national quote provider for online car insurance quotes, cites a strong correlation between traffic-related accidents and marijuana use. The study, which looks at statistics regarding accidents, traffic violations, and insurance prices, seeks to dispel the thought that “driving while stoned” is dangerous.
In the study, 4AutoInsuranceQuote.com points out that the only significant effect that marijuana has on operating a motor vehicle is slower driving.




So whomever you are talking to in Denver who says their rates have gone up because of increased number of car wrecks, well everything costs more and according to the Washington Post article above, exactly the opposite is true regarding 'increasing number of wrecks'.  Besides, according to that insurance study (and they'd have a definite interest wouldn't they?), 'druggies' drive slower which in my mind must imply that they are taking fewer risks and driving more carefully than drunks are.


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## Debby (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> Of course I noticed. That's why it came to mind that smaller cities with lower pop. but higher RATES of homelessness means those cities exceed 5%...........Incredible for any city, in my book. My wife & I were made homeless bythe Reagan Recession, in 1982, my employer laid me off on her _birthday! _A nice present I brought her home at 11:00AM that day. She, too, had been laid off previously. Job search, several months, zip. Dumped our nice house, traded my 1966 Mustang for a big yellow school bus, which we lived out of up in the woods of Northern AZ. How cold it was in that thing, they had no insulation at all.
> 
> Applied for food stamps, unemployment benefits ran out, we were up in Indian Country, Navajo County, a nice Mr. Sandoval, Supervisor of the Social Services there explained two reasons for no benefits, with a snicker: we had raised dough to live on selling personal belongings, AND "your skin is the wrong color". Not Native American. Would have been no questions asked benefit-eligible had I been.
> 
> Wonder at all why I question that big prejudice pendulum swinging to excess in both directions?  imp




Wow, that must have been a really tough time for you two!  A Finnish arrangement would have been really good for you back then.  Guaranteed basic income eh?


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## WhatInThe (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Well, from the NORML site on Massachusetts it seems the fines are still pretty stiff for anything over an ounce.
> 
> 
> 
> Pot tourism was I believe always on the minds of the people pushing for legalization. It's a big part of what brings in those tax dollars - in the last fiscal year pot taxes brought in $70 million, more even than alcohol sales. Why can't they use some of that money for the homeless?



My guess is other government departments and programs declared first dibs on that money for their own benefit.


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## Debby (Dec 9, 2015)

http://www.mintpressnews.com/new-sc...es-benefits-of-marijuana-legalization/208751/

So schools are benefitting from the millions generated from pot sales.  


'.....Along with legalization, Colorado voters approved a 15 percent excise tax on wholesale marijuana sales that is only to be used for school construction. According to another recent report from Baca, Colorado schools have earned $13.6 million in just the first five months of 2015, a sharp increase over 2014, when the tax generated a total of $13.3 million for the whole year. Putting that figure in perspective, Baca quoted a local Colorado school superintendent, who said that $40 million would fund the construction of “two well-equipped elementary schools, or one well-equipped middle school with an athletic field.”       Tax revenues for Colorado schools and infrastructure are not the only benefit of legalization for the state. A study released in January by the Drug Policy Alliance showed that legalization has led to a decrease in crime....'


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Wow, that must have been a really tough time for you two!  A Finnish arrangement would have been really good for you back then.  Guaranteed basic income eh?



Debby, I usually refrain from talking about that part of my life, but sometimes, just sometimes,......listening to all the theoretical balderdash stirred into a kind of "soup", I become foolishly compelled to do so. It's like, look, I've seen and heard all the B.S., but most of that issues forth from the inexperienced, so here's what it was like.

We lived in those woods a year. During the early months, I built a 16X40 foot cabin, we had plenty of firewood, at 6700 ft. it got plenty cold. Managed to trade my skills for a milk goat, and 6 chickens. No running water or plumbing. We were surprised to learn there were a lot of folks living up there in the same "boat". One young guy and his wife and father were camped in an abandoned shack a few miles away; I learned they were not above thieving. One day I ran into the guy with my pistol obvious in sight, in my waistband. The guy never again suggested that I help him rob some place, nor did he dare come near ours.    imp


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## Butterfly (Dec 9, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> Something else to think about when you see the Home Depot icon all over the place. Big corporate doesn't care about it's worker ants. Back in the day of private industry if someone was in a bad way financially maybe the boss could give the person a shot at more hours, additional assignments for a raise...something, anything. I remember when I worked there, a sign in the break room one day. " One of your co-workers is about to become homeless, any help would be appreciated". So instead of the machine helping this person they were asking co-workers to pass the hat. Decent hours and decent wages...you shouldn't have to become homeless and employed. Plus I could just see them firing him eventually anyway. Yes we know you're living in your car, but we have a business to run and you have to be here on time...the individual's situation has no meaning to them.



It's not just the big corporations -- it's small business, too.  I know that from bitter personal experience.


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## Butterfly (Dec 9, 2015)

I guess I don't get why legalization of marijuana would increase the homeless rate?  Alcohol causes WAY more homelessness, job loss, domestic violence, auto fatalities, crime, etc., than marijuana ever has or will. 

Does not make sense to me.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

WhatInThe said:


> My guess is other government departments and programs declared first dibs on that money for their own benefit.





Debby said:


> http://www.mintpressnews.com/new-sc...es-benefits-of-marijuana-legalization/208751/
> 
> So schools are benefitting from the millions generated from pot sales.



Answered and answered - thank you both.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

Butterfly said:


> I guess I don't get why legalization of marijuana would increase the homeless rate?  Alcohol causes WAY more homelessness, job loss, domestic violence, auto fatalities, crime, etc., than marijuana ever has or will.
> 
> Does not make sense to me.



Nor to me, but you have to remember the demonization of pot that has been going on for over 80 years - it has soaked into the American psyche to a point where it's reflexive to blame weed for everything from homelessness to climate change. 

But because alcohol is legal and is part of our "national heritage" it's usually overlooked as the true demon. 

*DISCLAIMER* - I lost my sister to a drunk driver, not a stoned one, so I may be prejudiced.


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## fureverywhere (Dec 9, 2015)

Crap, if when they legalize it in New Jersey I might be able to afford to retire. I am a danged good gardener. Becoming a certified grower? No problem I'd be doing well.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> Crap, if when they legalize it in New Jersey I might be able to afford to retire. I am a danged good gardener. Becoming a certified grower? No problem I'd be doing well.



If NJ is anything like the other legalized states you'd have to initially come up with tens of thousands of dollars just for the "privilege" of being a certified grower. Then high taxes, equipment fees, distribution worries, theft ... 

It ain't easy being a legal grower. You'd do better with a hydro arrangement in your basement.


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## fureverywhere (Dec 9, 2015)

Bastards, they have to make everything difficult eh wot?


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> Bastards, they have to make everything difficult eh wot?



Exactly.

I wrote a few articles for a cannabis-grower's magazine a while back - you'd be amazed at the hoops you have to jump through to run a proper operation.


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

fureverywhere said:


> *Bastards*, they have to make everything difficult eh wot?



A most succinct way of summing up government, in my way of thinking! Thank you!

And, benefitting you, *I *maylook forward to sharing, perhaps fielding the most of, commentary regarding my political beliefs.   imp


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## Debby (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> Debby, I usually refrain from talking about that part of my life, but sometimes, just sometimes,......listening to all the theoretical balderdash stirred into a kind of "soup", I become foolishly compelled to do so. It's like, look, I've seen and heard all the B.S., but most of that issues forth from the inexperienced, so here's what it was like.
> 
> We lived in those woods a year. During the early months, I built a 16X40 foot cabin, we had plenty of firewood, at 6700 ft. it got plenty cold. Managed to trade my skills for a milk goat, and 6 chickens. No running water or plumbing. We were surprised to learn there were a lot of folks living up there in the same "boat". One young guy and his wife and father were camped in an abandoned shack a few miles away; I learned they were not above thieving. One day I ran into the guy with my pistol obvious in sight, in my waistband. The guy never again suggested that I help him rob some place, nor did he dare come near ours.    imp




Well it does sound like it was a rough time and you must have learned to be very resourceful as a result.  Obviously because you survived right?


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## RadishRose (Dec 9, 2015)

I agree. It doesn't matter which state or city has the most. What matters is these people seem to have been abandoned by us in their need. If we can't take care of our present homeless and our homeless veterans, how are we going to take care of refugees?


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## RadishRose (Dec 9, 2015)

Jackie22 said:


> ...we could cut the budget of the military by a third and feed and house every homeless person in the country.




Really? Who said? I want to help the homeless and I do! But I'll be damned if we cut the military in these times, gee whiz!


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

Debby said:


> Well it does sound like it was a rough time and you must have learned to be very resourceful as a result.  *Obviously because you survived right*?



Yeah, we did. But very bitterly offended by the "system" I had honored and paid into for 20 years of my adult life, when turned away by a  smirking official whose power platform ego was supported through doling out funds to the indigent, only by the color of their skin. At that moment, in the guy's private office (of course an underling had done the actual review work and decision-making), my having demanded to speak to him, I may have never been more angered in my life up to that time.   imp


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> Really? Who said? I want to help the homeless and I do! But I'll be damned if we cut the military in these times, gee whiz!



But then we could re-institute the draft and get all those formerly-homeless folks into active service! 

No, I don't think robbing Peter to pay Paul would work in this situation ...


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> Yeah, we did. But very bitterly offended by the "system" I had honored and paid into for 20 years of my adult life, when turned away by a  smirking official whose power platform ego was supported through doling out funds to the indigent, only by the color of their skin. At that moment, in the guy's private office (of course an underling had done the actual review work and decision-making), my having demanded to speak to him, I may have never been more angered in my life up to that time.   imp



Have you / had you thought about bringing a reverse discrimination suit?


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> Have you / had you thought about bringing a reverse discrimination suit?



Never! I abide by the decisions of our great and respected leadership! (Though their actions enrage me more and more!). Firstly, litigation would involve lawyers, who likely knew very well that fighting in "Indian Country" is forbidden.

Secondly, I was brought up to believe in "self-sufficiency", resourcefulness, and greatest of all, self-respect. We suffered through it, we knew the conveniences of living the urban life in Phoenix, employed, overspending, over-eating, etc., would be gone. Our choice was that to join the throng of dopers, winter-squatters, beggers, and truly helpless homeless in downtown Phoenix, many lounging about in front of the State Capitol grounds, would have placed us at a level unacceptable to us as human beings.  

We managed. Those folks downtown may have, too, albeit many through welfare handout. Not for us.    imp


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## Shalimar (Dec 9, 2015)

Geeez.


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> Never! I abide by the decisions of our great and respected leadership! (Though their actions enrage me more and more!). Firstly, litigation would involve lawyers, who likely knew very well that fighting in "Indian Country" is forbidden.
> 
> Secondly, I was brought up to believe in "self-sufficiency", resourcefulness, and greatest of all, self-respect. We suffered through it, we knew the conveniences of living the urban life in Phoenix, employed, overspending, over-eating, etc., would be gone. Our choice was that to join the throng of dopers, winter-squatters, beggers, and truly helpless homeless in downtown Phoenix, many lounging about in front of the State Capitol grounds, would have placed us at a level unacceptable to us as human beings.
> 
> We managed. Those folks downtown may have, too, albeit many through welfare handout. Not for us.    imp



Interesting points of view.

Not being a resident of that area I cannot comment on the "no fighting in Indian Country" doctrine, but it does sound ... intriguing. 

As to the second point ... I too was once - well, not rich by any modern standard, but quite well-off, shall we say. I also blew through that money like a drunken sailor - "easy come, easy go" should have been on my belt buckle. 

Now that I've turned away from that life I find myself wondering ... I always was too proud to accept help of any kind but especially from the government. I would make it on my own but without help of any kind. Well, getting married and having kids changed my attitude, as well as the more mature realization that I wasn't Superman anymore.

To date I've "accepted" unemployment payments once (a nasty situation like yours - laid off from Union Carbide, couldn't find work to save my life) and one month of food stamps (I believe it was $199). Other than that like a stubborn donkey I refuse to enter into "The System".

Social Security (if I live that long) will be a different story - I paid into it, gimme' it!


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

SifuPhil said:


> .....Social Security (if I live that long) will be a different story - I paid into it, gimme' it!



Phil, FWIW, I say, TAKE IT as soon as you can. I "dropped out" in 1999, five years before S/S eligibility, struggled a bit, worked one year teaching Math in  rural high school, only because the Principal all but begged me, that helped. 

To do it over again, no changes!      imp


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> Phil, FWIW, I say, TAKE IT as soon as you can. I "dropped out" in 1999, five years before S/S eligibility, struggled a bit, worked one year teaching Math in  rural high school, only because the Principal all but begged me, that helped.
> 
> To do it over again, no changes!      imp



Smart man.

I plan to be standing at the little window as soon as I turn 62-[SUP]1[/SUP]/[SUB]2[/SUB].

Of course, by then I'll probably have to get official "papers" once again - SS card, birth certificate, Driver's License - you know, all those pieces of paper that the government deems necessary. 

So much for staying out of The System ...


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## jujube (Dec 9, 2015)

I was stunned at the number of homeless in Seattle.  Just about every overpass had a small tent city underneath it.  People were living in decrepit old campers that they moved around the streets every few days.  There were actually tents pitched on sidewalks in places.   I heard that they are planning to designate a large homeless camp shelter somewhere out in the suburbs.  Unlike the usual homeless shelter, they won't ban alcohol and drugs.  The thinking behind that is to get as many of the homeless to come live in the camp, THEN get to work on getting them sober/off drugs.  I'd have to think that Seattle would be one of the most undesirable places to be homeless in the winter. 

It wasn't that long ago that the city of Orlando used to give vagrants one-way bus tickets to "somewhere", just to get them out of town.


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## imp (Dec 9, 2015)

jujube said:


> I was stunned at the number of homeless in Seattle.  Just about every overpass had a small tent city underneath it.  People were living in decrepit old campers that they moved around the streets every few days.  There were actually tents pitched on sidewalks in places.   I heard that they are planning to designate a large homeless camp shelter somewhere out in the suburbs.  Unlike the usual homeless shelter, they won't ban alcohol and drugs.  The thinking behind that is to get as many of the homeless to come live in the camp, THEN get to work on getting them sober/off drugs.  I'd have to think that Seattle would be one of the most undesirable places to be homeless in the winter.
> 
> It wasn't that long ago that the city of Orlando used to give vagrants one-way bus tickets to "somewhere", just to get them out of town.



What a shameful display of "bounteous America", the Horn of Plenty fulfilling the needs of anyone and everyone willing to work, settle down in one place, live acceptably decent lives, raise children to respect and accept the work ethic, where has all of that philosophy gone?    imp


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## SifuPhil (Dec 9, 2015)

imp said:


> What a shameful display of "bounteous America", the Horn of Plenty fulfilling the needs of anyone and everyone willing to work, settle down in one place, live acceptably decent lives, raise children to respect and accept the work ethic, where has all of that philosophy gone?    imp



That America disappeared in MY youth, Imp. It started off that way, but the Demon of Progress and Technical Wonders took over and stripped us of our humanity.


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## Shalimar (Dec 9, 2015)

IMO, perhaps into the pockets of the oligarchs?


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## Debby (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm thinking that you hit the nail on the head Shalimar.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 10, 2015)

Debby said:


> I'm thinking that you hit the nail on the head Shalimar.



That's what's so amazing about a part of the American electorate.   They refuse to see what the REAL problem is.  It's NOT the poor getting some help with food or housing..  It's NOT grandma and grandpa and their SS or Medicare..  It's the fact that since Reagan and Reaganomics... so much of the wealth has moved from the pockets of the middle class into the overseas bank accounts and tax shelters of the oligarchy.  They keep voting for the party that promises them so much.. with no intention of serving anyone but their wealthy donors and moving more wealth to the top by rigging the system in favor of the rich.. and taking MORE away from the poor and Middle Class.. THEN blaming it ALL on the poor and the elderly.   When are people going to wake the "F" up???


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## Shalimar (Dec 10, 2015)

QS, perhaps they will wake up when they lose enough to become really really angry and march en masse to Washington? Voting with their feet?


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2015)

Far too much of what some are complaining of has disappeared because we can no longer afford to build and ship items as cheaply as other countries around this world can.   Where do our low cost electronics come from.   Foreign countries where they pay far less.   For some that pay pennies compared to our many dollars for the same item.   We then complain about not have so many good jobs and many will sit and do nothing but complain that we are now poorer because  1  & 2 & 3 & --------.   Lower our taxes, make it possible to keep our jobs at home, make sure we can control our own lives ourselves, reduce the size of our governments local and federal and especially the federal.

Things can be done to make the lives of the working class better and improve our economy.


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## Debby (Dec 10, 2015)

QuickSilver said:


> That's what's so amazing about a part of the American electorate.   They refuse to see what the REAL problem is.  It's NOT the poor getting some help with food or housing..  It's NOT grandma and grandpa and their SS or Medicare..  It's the fact that since Reagan and Reaganomics... so much of the wealth has moved from the pockets of the middle class into the overseas bank accounts and tax shelters of the oligarchy.  They keep voting for the party that promises them so much.. with no intention of serving anyone but their wealthy donors and moving more wealth to the top by rigging the system in favor of the rich.. and taking MORE away from the poor and Middle Class.. THEN blaming it ALL on the poor and the elderly.   When are people going to wake the "F" up???




So true QS.  I don't know about the Reagonomics part because I wasn't paying any attention back then, but you are right on about the wealthy donors 'paying' to have the rules skewed in their favour so that they get richer and the poor get poorer.

A Seattle entrepreneur named Nick Hanauer actually gets it despite the fact that he's one of the 1%.  The excuse is always that 'you shouldn't tax the rich more.....because they are the job creators'.  I suppose it's the old trickle down theory but Mr. Hanauer's TED Talk was titled 'Rich People Don't Create Jobs' and for saying what he said, his talk got banned from TED.  I think a few here would enjoy what he has to say (if you haven't heard of him already).  

The premise of his talk is that if you give the rich guy an extra couple thousand back from his taxes, he's going to just stick it in his bank account, reinvest it and get richer whereas if you give a couple middle class (or lower) families that couple thousand, they are going to go out and buy clothes for their kids, school supplies, do a bit of renovation on their old house.....in other words, it goes right back into the economy and many more benefit.  Anyway, listen if you want, I thought he was pretty sensible.






And I also want to make the point here, this is not all about America.  The exact same problem has happened in Canada and I'll bet Europeans would also have the same complaints.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> QS, perhaps they will wake up when they lose enough to become really really angry and march en masse to Washington? Voting with their feet?




I believe it's already affecting them... They are just blaming the wrong people..     Careful.... "F" bomb alert...


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## Shalimar (Dec 10, 2015)

Well said.


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## Shalimar (Dec 10, 2015)

Isn't this what history teaches us? The rich gouge everyone else, until the "hoi polloi" get pissed and revolt in one way or another?


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## WhatInThe (Dec 10, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Isn't this what history teaches us? The rich gouge everyone else, until the "hoi polloi" get pissed and revolt in one way or another?



It's not so much about gouging but maintaining their status quo. They want to keep their money and power as do many. Some do it ethically, passively then there are the criminals and banksters.


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2015)

Every time someone tries to change the US tax rules it gets dropped real fast.   It does not matter who is in charge, just don't mess with the way some folks can get rich.   A tax change has been offered many times but then just ignored.   Check into GE's situation and their general manager, Immelt, who has been but don't know now, a financial adviser for Obama's government.   

Interesting all this stuff about Ronald Reagan.   His Congress was all Democrats for his entire term.   It was all Democrats before Reagan, his first term was a split Republican and Democrat Congress, his second term was again all Democrat.   How can we blame Reagan for the actions of a mostly Democrat Congress where the power really is.   The only control would have been any spending things that Reagan could force on to the Democrats who usually are the spenders.


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## Butterfly (Dec 10, 2015)

RadishRose said:


> Really? Who said? I want to help the homeless and I do! But I'll be damned if we cut the military in these times, gee whiz!



I agree.  With ISIS looming, it's no time to be cutting the military.


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## Jackie22 (Dec 10, 2015)

.....I think we could skim a few billion off the top for the homeless and still be ahead in the game.


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## QuickSilver (Dec 10, 2015)

That's for sure...


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2015)

Our treasury department is now involved in paying over 400 billion dollars each year and that include the interest too.   It is actually nearing 500 billion per year.    We now owe over 18.8 trillion of debt and growing quickly.   It was only 7.8 trillion during the Bush term, till the Democrats took over in his last two years and raised it up to 10.5 trillion where Obama took over and ran up the rest to the 18.8 trillion debt.  And still rising.


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