# This whole debate depresses me...



## Alligatorob (Jul 30, 2021)

I am troubled by all of the emotional and political debate on this whole Covid thing. I believe that our government has largely failed us in not getting out the clearest and most useful data and information possible.  And that is much to blame for the state of the debate.  Getting this information is one thing the government should be able to do, but they have not. Too many confusing or contradictory statements, and too little coordination of good scientific, medical, and epidemiological data collection, assimilation, interpretation, and release.

Our politicians have for the most part made it worse, and our press has done an even more dismal job of reporting on things.

I believe it would be very helpful to have the most reliable data possible on several issues (the list could be a lot longer and more detailed, but it seems to me this covers most of the big important items):

Are the risks from contracting Covid bad enough to justify the expense and trouble we are going through? I tend to think that many of the anti-vaccine, anti-mask, and anti-shutdown people really believe the risks are not so high. I don’t agree, but this is a legitimate position, one that deserves discussion. And good rational discussion and decision making can only be based on good data. For example reliable data comparing Covid risks to the flu and other common diseases would be helpful. I think some of this information is already out, but not in a way that many people understand or believe it.
How doses the vaccine effect the Covid risks? From press reports it sounds to me like getting the vaccine greatly lowers the risk of serious illness and death. If this is true, I might be convinced that the right thing to do is get as many people vaccinated as possible and then let the virus run its course.
What are the real risks of the vaccine itself and how do those compare to the risks of contracting Covid? Most of what we hear are sweeping statements that the vaccines are safe and effective, or stories of people who have had bad reactions. I suspect the truth is somewhere in-between. For myself I choose to get the vaccine, and I believe others should too. However, I understand opinions differ, which is fine. I just think that with more good information more people could make the best choice.
Do unvaccinated people represent a higher risk to the population as a whole?  To vaccinated people?  What are the real consequences to others of an individual not getting vaccinated?  I am not suggesting this as a reason to require vaccination, but if people knew the answers they could make better decisions.
A related issue that we need a good understanding of is how long can we expect the vaccine to last and what comes next?  Boosters, a new vaccine?  Variants are the way all viruses go, this should be no surprise, we need to be talking about a plan for the future now.  For the flu we are supposed to get annual shots, will Covid vaccine end up a part of that cocktail?
What are the real effects of mask wearing on transmission and severity risks from the virus? I am not a health professional, but I am an engineer and spent a lot of my career working with filters and protection from airborne toxins, so I know a little. My understanding helps me know that no mask or filter is 100% effective, and any mask or filter will reduce exposure at least a little. So no 0% and no 100%, but we don’t really know where the various masks and mask wearing protocols fall in between.  And importantly what are the epidemiological consequences?  We need to know if masks cut down on disease, not the specifics of what happens to exhaled particles, just does the mask help reduce infection in our population and how much?  Easier to make rational decisions with good data.
A similar question should be asked for social distancing to help us better understand the value or lack of it from the shutdowns.
I know this is a rapidly evolving thing and information is coming in all the time, we have to expect that some interpretations will change so we cannot realistically expect the story not to change with time. I think most of us can live with that so long as we are honestly told about the uncertainties.

At this point I do not believe this pandemic is bad enough that the government should try to require vaccines or masks, the risks do not seem to me to be high enough for that. And I believe that if properly informed most people will make good decisions and do the right thing voluntarily.

One place the government deserves high marks (or I think they do anyway) is for the vaccine.  They found something that works and got it out in unbelievable time.  I would not have take an 100:1 bet on this happening a couple of years ago.  So something was done right, I just wish more had been...

There will be future pandemics and worse will happen. We should treat this as a learning experience to be ready or readier for the next. I fear we are not doing a very good job of that. For me the silver lining is that I probably won’t live to see that next bad one…

I have opinions on most of these questions, as I am sure others do.  I tried not to put too much of my own bias here, just trying to get others to think.  And perhaps rationally discuss.  Not to argue.  I can respect any thought out opinion, no matter how wrong I might think it is, LOL!


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## Irwin (Jul 30, 2021)

Michael Freedy, a Las Vegas father of five, died from the coronavirus Thursday after sending his fiancee a text expressing his regret at not getting the COVID-19 vaccine, FOX5 reported.

Jessica DuPreez, Freedy's fiancee, said that he sent her a text while he was in the hospital that said: "I should have gotten the damn vaccine."

"He is only 39. Our babies now don't have a dad," DuPreez said, sharing her story to encourage others to get the vaccine. "You can't say I am young and it won't affect me because it will."
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...-i-should-have-gotten-the-damn-vaccine-before


There are many other stories like that out there. Maybe people should put a little more faith in science and a little less on what they hear on cable "news."


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## Aunt Bea (Jul 30, 2021)

It depresses me too, yet here we are.


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## Warrigal (Jul 30, 2021)

US is not alone with the mixed messaging. We have the same problem in Australia.


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## Nathan (Jul 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> This whole debate depresses me...


The Covid-19 knowledge base is still developing- a "work in progress" so expect some rough edges along the way.
Those who would politicize and weaponize the public conversation are only contributing to Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt being experienced by the Public, and as such do a great dis-service.

I'm done with any kind of debate, especially with _armchair athletes_. When my healthcare provider has pertinent information, I will review it at that time.


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## John cycling (Jul 30, 2021)

Alligatorob said:


> I believe it would be very helpful to have the most reliable data possible on several issues (the list could be a lot longer and more detailed, but it seems to me this covers most of the big important items):



Personally, I just continue on like they didn't say anything.


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## chic (Jul 30, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Personally, I just continue on like they didn't say anything.


I've gotten to that point too John. It's the only way to remain sane. It's funny, but you can pretty much do what you want, so far, re:the virus and they don't do anything to you. So far.


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## Don M. (Jul 30, 2021)

Given that the politicians are Only interested in advancing the interests of their Party, and their biggest campaign donors, anything coming from their mouths should be taken with a degree of skepticism. 

Insofar as the virus is concerned, it is spreading and changing so rapidly, that the "experts" are only able to give us their "best guess".  It is up to individuals to follow multiple news sources, and make their own decisions about how best to survive this pandemic.  With some minor "modifications" to their routines, most people should be able to lead a fairly normal life, and not get stressed out.

Those under the greatest "stress" are our hospital workers who are having to deal with increasing numbers of people in miserable shape.


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## Becky1951 (Jul 30, 2021)

"
It is up to individuals to follow multiple news sources, and make their own decisions about how best to survive this pandemic. With some minor "modifications" to their routines, most people should be able to lead a fairly normal life, and not get stressed out."

_*I agree with your statement*_.

"Those under the greatest "stress" are our hospital workers who are having to deal with increasing numbers of people in miserable shape."

_*And those now included fully vaccinated as well as unvaccinated patients.   *_


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## chic (Jul 30, 2021)

Don M. said:


> Given that the politicians are Only interested in advancing the interests of their Party, and their biggest campaign donors, anything coming from their mouths should be taken with a degree of skepticism.
> 
> Insofar as the virus is concerned, it is spreading and changing so rapidly, that the "experts" are only able to give us their "best guess".  It is up to individuals to follow multiple news sources, and make their own decisions about how best to survive this pandemic.  With some minor "modifications" to their routines, most people should be able to lead a fairly normal life, and not get stressed out.
> 
> Those under the greatest "stress" are our hospital workers who are having to deal with increasing numbers of people in miserable shape.


Worse are the hospital workers who went from being heroes to unemployed because they will lose their freedom of choice due to their occupation and the vaccine. No jab = no job. This is tyranny in its most outrageous form. IDK. I think these are the MOST stressful times I have ever lived through. There's no way around it when you're not valued or respected and those who are supposed to lead really don't know how so after a year and a half of this stuff we're finally just going to have to take care of ourselves. We should have from the start. Unimpeded.


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## Geezerette (Jul 30, 2021)

Even worse in my opinion is the situation now where vaccinated people ar going to suffer and possibly die from other health problems because  the hospital beds are getting filled up with anti vaxxers who have gotten seriously ill from the virus. Hospitals here are turning away any but the most critical cases because the unvaccinated people caught it and are acutely ill.
Folks, depression is just another name for suppressed anger, and I am angry that the anti vaxxers have gotten the spread going again. I’ve gone back to wearing a mask in stores etc because the anti vaxxers and anti maskers cannot be trusted with an honor system.  No sympathy at all for the original poster and those who are still pretending to be “searching for the truth”. Just excuses.


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## Irwin (Jul 30, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> Even worse in my opinion is the situation now where vaccinated people ar going to suffer and possibly die from other health problems because  the hospital beds are getting filled up with anti vaxxers who have gotten seriously ill from the virus. Hospitals here are turning away any but the most critical cases because the unvaccinated people caught it and are acutely ill.
> Folks, depression is just another name for suppressed anger, and I am angry that the anti vaxxers have gotten the spread going again. I’ve gone back to wearing a mask in stores etc because the anti vaxxers and anti maskers cannot be trusted with an honor system.  No sympathy at all for the original poster and those who are still pretending to be “searching for the truth”. Just excuses.


Plus, the rest of us have to pay for their hospital care!


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## Warrigal (Jul 31, 2021)

A visual comment from one of our cartoonists about a large protest in Sydney last weekend.

A lot of Sydney is battling a resurgent outbreak of the delta variant with a hard lockdown.
I am affected by the lockdown and Hubby and I are now fully vaccinated with AZ  but we are happy to comply with all of the restrictions.

The idiots in the protest, which turned quite violent, are just prolonging the thing they are protesting about.


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## JonDouglas (Jul 31, 2021)

This is just another speed bump on the road of life.  Some will panic, get off the road and stay put based on orders from bureaucrats with bad data.  Others will go on living as usual for as long as they can and not get all that worked up over it.  The press and media will continue to go bat-shit crazy for as long as it gives them ratings and revenues.  Politicians will spin it to get elected/reelected.  Big companies will milk it for all its worth.  While healthy, I will just continue to live to the fullest, travel and see/photograph things beautiful and interesting.


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## Packerjohn (Jul 31, 2021)

JonDouglas has it 100% right.  Boo on the media!  Boo on our politicians!  Boo on those hiding in their closets or under their beds for the terror they have from watching too much news on the TV.  Me, I'm heading up the the Yukon and maybe Alaska in another 4 days.  I have a life to live that is away from the cursed media and all their lackeys.


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## OscarW (Jul 31, 2021)

Here's a link to a good article that may make some of you feel better. It's entitled "Five Things You Notice When You Quit The News." 

https://www.raptitude.com/2016/12/five-things-you-notice-when-you-quit-the-news/


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

As Timothy Leary once said......."Turn on, tune in, & drop out"


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## Becky1951 (Jul 31, 2021)

One day you read articles that gives one type of information that it suppose to be backed up by the "experts" then the next day you read articles that have the opposite information backed up by the "experts" and then the following day you read articles that point to first article and are backed up by "experts"!!!  Then you read don't believe the misinformation, believe these experts!

How can a person trust the "experts"?


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Jul 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> One day you read articles that gives one type of information that it suppose to be backed up by the "experts" then the next day you read articles that have the opposite information backed up by the "experts" and then the following day you read articles that point to first article and are backed up by "experts"!!!  Then you read don't believe the misinformation, believe these experts!
> 
> How can a person trust the "experts"?


Just ask me.....I'm an expert!


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## chic (Jul 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> One day you read articles that gives one type of information that it suppose to be backed up by the "experts" then the next day you read articles that have the opposite information backed up by the "experts" and then the following day you read articles that point to first article and are backed up by "experts"!!!  Then you read don't believe the misinformation, believe these experts!hi
> 
> How can a person trust the "experts"?


I think that's where you have to shut them off Becky, and just take care of yourself and your family. Maybe a lot of people are beginning to realize this.


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## Nathan (Jul 31, 2021)

Jeff_RN/Paramedic said:


> As Timothy Leary once said......."Turn on, tune in, & drop out"


...best advice I've heard yet!   Whoa, it isn't 5 o'clock yet but it IS Saturday don't ya know.


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## JonDouglas (Jul 31, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> One day you read articles that gives one type of information that it suppose to be backed up by the "experts" then the next day you read articles that have the opposite information backed up by the "experts" and then the following day you read articles that point to first article and are backed up by "experts"!!!  Then you read don't believe the misinformation, believe these experts!
> 
> How can a person trust the "experts"?


If you look down through history, you will find that most experts never were.  Experts said man would never fly, let alone go to the moon.  Experts said we'd all be dead from global warming by now.  Experts said Boston would be underwater by the turn of the century.  Experts said people would never want computers in their homes.  Experts said high speed rail travel was impossible because people would be unable to breathe.  Henry Ford's lawyer was advised the horse was here to stay.  Back in the 1930s, Boeing's head engineer said a bigger *than a 10 passenger plane) would never be built.  The head of the national cancer institute once said smoking played only a minor role.  Anyway you get the point.  If not - Smithsonian:  Why Experts are Almost Always Wrong.  Your view of "experts" is bit of an IQ test.


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## Geezerette (Aug 1, 2021)




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## Geezerette (Aug 1, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> Dont you just love how those antivaccers make those those dying statements of regret when the respirator is no longer able to help them, for not having gotten the vaccine, or pleading can’t they just have it when it’s already too late. Grieving relatives saying if only he, or she had listened.  Hope you have yours prepared; you might need it.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> Dont you just love those dying statements of regret for not getting the vaccine, or  g to see if they


Yep.......or those dying statements of regret from heart attack patients for eating so much red meat and fat......or the dying cancer patient who wouldn't put down their cigarettes.....or the dying diabetic who wouldn't give up cake and soda......or the dying crash victim who wouldn't wear a seatbelt........the list goes on...........we all make choices that may one day culminate in much regret.....stay well....and choose wisely.


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## squatting dog (Aug 1, 2021)

Experts. pffft.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Geezerette said:


> Dont you just love those dying statements of regret for not getting the vaccine,



Nope.  What I do love is all the fun and laughter from and freedom of those who don't regret either getting nor not getting the vaccine.  Wouldn't it ironic if the vaccinated turn out to be the biggest carriers with the least immunity (as compared with natural immunity)


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

squatting dog said:


> Experts. pffft.
> 
> View attachment 176572


Well it sells media advertising, gets research grants, strokes egos, gets you media attention, helps academics publish (where publish or perish is a norm) and gives politicians a crisis to run against (e.g., "Never let a good crisis go to waste.")


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Nope.  What I do love is all the fun and laughter from and freedom of those who don't regret either getting nor not getting the vaccine.  Wouldn't it ironic if the vaccinated turn out to be the biggest carriers with the least immunity (as compared with natural immunity)


Something that has been totally overlooked and not addressed here are all the people who HAVE received the "vaccine" and who have either died directly from the vaccine or who have endured some type of complication.
I bet their dying regret and the regrets of their family were "oh crap........why did we get get vaccinated"!!!


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## Irwin (Aug 1, 2021)

I don't have a problem with people not getting vaccinated. I do have a problem with them when they catch covid-19 and take up hospital beds and healthcare services that could be used for people with other ailments and injuries. Plus, they're costing the rest of us billions of dollars.

As far as people dying from the vaccine, so far there have only been a handful, and they died from blood clots from the vaccine, which doctors now know how to treat.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I don't have a problem with people not getting vaccinated. I do have a problem with them when they catch covid-19 and take up hospital beds and healthcare services that could be used for people with other ailments and injuries. Plus, they're costing the rest of us billions of dollars.
> 
> As far as people dying from the vaccine, so far there have only been a handful, and they died from blood clots from the vaccine, which doctors now know how to treat.


Do you have the same problem with people who get the vaccine and then take up hospital beds because it made them ill?


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

For those who might think all is mostly rosy in vaccinated land, see Boston Globe: *Israel sees waning coronavirus vaccine effectiveness*

Edit Note:  There is a possibility that Israel is seeing what Dr. Malone (inventor of mRNA technology) said could happen - ADE, which is harder to treat.


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## Becky1951 (Aug 1, 2021)

JonDouglas said:


> Do you have the same problem with people who get the vaccine and then take up hospital beds because it made them ill?


Also the vaccinated are catching and spreading Covid and some end up in the hospital right along side the unvaccinated. Some vaccinated have also died due to Covid.


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## JonDouglas (Aug 1, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> Also the vaccinated are catching and spreading Covid and some end up in the hospital right along side the unvaccinated. Some vaccinated have also died due to Covid.


This was just sent to me.  Something to check out.

_According to the most recent stats released by the CDC this past Friday, their Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) now has recorded twice as many deaths following the non-FDA approved experimental COVID-19 shots during the past 8 months, than deaths recorded following ALL FDA approved vaccines for the past 30 years._​_- - - - - -_​_The July 30th data dump into VAERS, which everyone acknowledges is not the full data of deaths and injuries following COVID-19 shots, reveals 11,940 deaths and 618,648 injuries among 518,770 cases, including 12,808 permanent disabilities, 65,272 emergency room visits, 40,873 hospitalizations, and 11,198 life threatening injuries._​​_




_​


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## squatting dog (Aug 1, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I don't have a problem with people not getting vaccinated. I do have a problem with them when they catch covid-19 and take up hospital beds and healthcare services that could be used for people with other ailments and injuries. Plus, they're costing the rest of us billions of dollars.
> 
> As far as people dying from the vaccine, so far there have only been a handful, and they died from blood clots from the vaccine, which doctors now know how to treat.


Am I to believe then that you also have a problem with the billions of dollars being doled out for welfare every year?
Oh yeah... also the trillions being spent of useless and meaningless wars too.


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## Jeff_RN/Paramedic (Aug 1, 2021)

Irwin said:


> I don't have a problem with people not getting vaccinated. I do have a problem with them when they catch covid-19 and take up hospital beds and healthcare services that could be used for people with other ailments and injuries. Plus, they're costing the rest of us billions of dollars.
> 
> As far as people dying from the vaccine, so far there have only been a handful, and they died from blood clots from the vaccine, which doctors now know how to treat.


If your tax money wasn't being spent on covid, it would be spent on many other pork projects.
You really believe you'll get your tax dollars back or that you'll get someone else's medical bill in the mail???? 
Wise up. You're argument is ludicrous. Stay well.


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