# Snowflakes



## grahamg (Oct 4, 2018)

"Snowflake generation" article:

 [url]www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/s...ent-and-going-places[/URL] 

(Edited extracts from article by Yvonne Roberts).

 When the prolific author, vintage contrarian, wit and critic of most things faintly modern (feminism in particular) decides to have a go, she certainly gives it the full Weldon. Fay blasts on all barrels with just a shrapnel of truth to convince the unsure that, millennials and baby boomers alike, we don’t like each other and we are all going to hell in a handcart – but preferably not before buying her latest book, After the Peace.


 In the US, Professor Jean Twenge has spent much of her academic life charting the rise of narcissism among the younger “me, me, me” generations, the result of which, she argues, has been the erosion of education. Teachers forbidden to mark with a red pen for fear of psychological damage; every pupil is special so effort becomes devalued. No need to try hard if you are already unique.

 In the UK, the “snowflake generation”, we are told, lacks character and wilts at the first challenge. A false eyelash drops – OMG! It’s the end of the world. As Weldon charges, their self-esteem is falsely boosted by helicopter parents who attempt to remove the very obstacles in life that teach vital lessons. If failure, unhappiness and setbacks are avoided at all costs, then so is real learning. At university, we are told, students are now customers. They can demand value for money, better grades, a decent degree and protection from what they find unpalatable. That’s not the “tough love” education that, Weldon argues, puts mettle in the soul.


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2018)

Interesting. I think I would enjoy having that lady as a client. Many  of my clients are Millennials, they certainly do not resemble her characterization of them in the least. (Since before the pharaohs, older people have bemoaned the flaws of the young and their deleterious effect on the society they wish to retain.)Narcissism is found in all generations, my mother was a 

prime example. The millennials I know, are very aware of the problems in the world, particularly environmental, and socioeconomic. They believe they should contribute to their communities, and tend to be far more globalist than previous generations. They believe in equality of opportunity for all. As for expecting certain standards at university, with the cost of 

education being what it is, the majority will be in their forties before their student loans are paid off. If I were in their shoes, I would demand a very high standard of education for that price, particularly since today’s careers often require multiple degrees. Yes many are feminists, male and female, so am I. For every helicopter parent on one end of the scale, and tiger 

parent at the other end, both extremes often producing screwed up offspring, there are a majority of parents who fall in the more balanced middle range. These parents love unconditionally, yet expect  a no nonsense behavioural standard re their kids, and  impose appropriate consequences when these standards are not met. Kids who are protected from all adversity in their environment lack the skill 

sets to deal with the world. They are emotionally immature, often codependent, and  lack the interpersonal skills to deal effectively with harsh realities. Kids who are treated harshly by tiger parents are often quite successful in their careers, but their personal relationships usually suffer due to a rigid 

mindset, an inability to develop intimacy with others,  control issues, and an obsession with achievement at all costs. In my opinion, the key is a moderate approach, raising self aware, self disciplined offspring who place equal value the value on the merits of hard work, perseverance, and the moral and ethical 

components necessary in developing a compassionate,  and perceptive character. (All children need to feel loved and safe, worthwhile and important. These are the building blocks of a healthy human being, without them, a child grows up with a hole 

inside them that nothing ever truly fills.) Canada is currently the country with the largest percentage of university educated individuals, particularly in the tech fields. I see this as a good thing, certainly not a sign of wilting snowflakes. Anyone who gets through Uni, learns to deal with stress, disappointments, and all manner 

of emotional challenges if they wish to graduate with decent grades. Btw, my generation was the original ME generation. Lol. I much prefer the millennials approach to the world to the harsh Calvinistic blame and shame tactics employed by some harsh 

denizens of previous generations. Millennials frequently  visit my office to learn a greater understanding of who they are, and what areas of their psyche could benefit from counseling. The journey within can be the most rewarding and dynamic path one ever trods, the benefits amazing, but it is always requires strength.


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## StarSong (Oct 5, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Interesting. I think I would enjoy having that lady as a client. Many  of my clients are Millennials, they certainly do not resemble her characterization of them in the least. (Since before the pharaohs, older people have bemoaned the flaws of the young and their deleterious effect on the society they wish to retain.)Narcissism is found in all generations, my mother was a
> 
> prime example. The millennials I know, are very aware of the problems in the world, particularly environmental, and socioeconomic. They believe they should contribute to their communities, and tend to be far more globalist than previous generations. They believe in equality of opportunity for all. As for expecting certain standards at university, with the cost of
> 
> ...



Wow, Shali!  Very well said!!!


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## Shalimar (Oct 5, 2018)

Thanks StarSong. I was half asleep when I wrote it. Proofread three times, still made mistakes.


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## StarSong (Oct 5, 2018)

Shalimar said:


> Thanks StarSong. I was half asleep when I wrote it. Proofread three times, still made mistakes.



LOL - that's what the edit button is for!


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## grahamg (Oct 5, 2018)

There are two more articles in "The Telegraph Newspaper" (UK) today with some bearing on this discussion.

One written by Fraser Nelson talking about "Twitter storms", and the way people who feel they are offended essentially whip up a storm that causes unpopular topics that maybe should be debated to get closed down.

The other is by Judith Wood, lamenting many of the things Fay Weldon has highlighted in a different section of the paper (maybe the "women's pages").

In themselves they might not be much but on the other hand maybe those unwilling to see any negative trends around them should think a little harder, "if they are able to do this", because as Judith Wood says "we should all worry if the younger generation do behave in a manner we wouldn't wish to see" (perhaps best to try to check out the article and if I this link works it will be a miracle:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...n-childhood/&usg=AOvVaw12fW0mSAK4RLXjQOAogc97).

I think it is something of a phenomenon in itself, those unwilling to allow a discussion such as this to consider a deterioration in behaviour I believe, and I could point out what a remarkable achievement it would be for youngsters not to show any ill effects from increased divorce rates wouldn't it  .


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## grahamg (Oct 5, 2018)

StarSong said:


> Shalimar wrote:
> "Interesting. I think I would enjoy having that lady as a client.
> 
> Many  of my clients are Millennials, they certainly do not resemble her characterization of them in the least. (Since before the pharaohs, older people have bemoaned the flaws of the young and their deleterious effect on the society they wish to retain.)
> ...



In my fathers rights campaigning days, fifteen or so years ago, I came across a government consultation document written by a couple of female professors from Leeds University in the UK. 

When asked the question as to what should be done if a mother was "irrationally" objecting to the father having any contact with their child, these two professors said it was "offensive" to suggest the courts should intervene.

So, they used emotional language, even in the context of a government lead process, whereby all kind of groups and individuals were asked for their views. I'm not sure whether the government appointed people quite accepted the arguments from the two women at Leeds University, but it does create a dilemma for anyone framing family laws if "irrational behaviour" cannot be challenged in any way, as they advocated.

What I'm getting to eventually is to ask you if there is not some irrationality about the behaviour of those rejecting any idea there may be something wrong with the way young people are being raised?

Our UK government has expressed concern at the amount of time the young, or even the very young are spending in front of computer screens, ipads etc., and whether or not Fay Weldon or US professor Jean Twenge need your help, there may just be a grain of truth in what they are saying.


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## StarSong (Oct 6, 2018)

grahamg said:


> There are two more articles in "The Telegraph Newspaper" (UK) today with some bearing on this discussion.
> 
> One written by Fraser Nelson talking about "Twitter storms", and the way people who feel they are offended essentially whip up a storm that causes unpopular topics that maybe should be debated to get closed down.
> 
> ...



The link you provided is accessible only to Telegraph subscribers,  however this link provides free access to the entire article: 
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/li...ng-with-modern-childhood-20181006-p5085i.html

I'm not clear on your points, Graham.  Are you advocating that unhappily married people return to the "good old days" of staying together for the sake of the children?  Many of our generation can bear witness to how poorly that strategy worked.  

As for the two professors from Leeds, there are always odd opinions.  With no indication otherwise it seems reasonable to expect that your government dismissed this recommendation rather than integrating it into child custody policy decisions. 

Screen time?  Many in my generation were babysat by televisions, and a whole bunch of successive generations spent hour upon hour watching that box.  On the whole, they're doing pretty well.  

When our generation bemoans the modern trajectory we might want to remember that we were involved in setting that course.


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## grahamg (Oct 6, 2018)

*Thanks for the link*



StarSong said:


> The link you provided is accessible only to Telegraph subscribers,  however this link provides free access to the entire article:
> https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/li...ng-with-modern-childhood-20181006-p5085i.html
> 
> I'm not clear on your points, Graham.  Are you advocating that unhappily married people return to the "good old days" of staying together for the sake of the children?  Many of our generation can bear witness to how poorly that strategy worked.
> ...



Thanks for the link there.

As far as the divorce question I feel I'm one who has benefitted from the fact I'm out of an unhappy marriage, whilst at the same time I do agree with the evidence I've seen that the effects upon children are profound (and maybe some kids would have benefitted more had their parents stayed together than you would allow be recognised in this discussion).

My point about accepting there must be affects upon young people and their behaviour given the high divorce rates still stands (doesn't it?), whether divorce is a good thing for parents or their children overall.

I do agree with those of you showing a positive view of young people, or wishing to put forward a positive view here, in the sense that it is an admirable thing to do, praise the young etc. However, don't be blinkered to reality is my response, we can't just accept "everything in the garden is rosy" just because you say so. Things are not necessarily getting better as you portray matters, and there are those you've kindly provided a link for thinking otherwise, or as I do.


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## StarSong (Oct 7, 2018)

I don't disagree that some kids would benefit if their parents found a way toward harmony and kept marriages intact.  Anecdotally, two couples who are quite close friends separated for a time when their children were teens.  Both got counseling and put their marriages back together.  Their ability to patch things up has surely been a positive for their children.  I've also known people with children who split for relatively small reasons and part of the legacy is that their kids are not good at resolving small issues in their own marriages.  Their go-to solution is to walk away  

On the whole though, my (second hand) experience with divorce is that it's a positive and that most people stayed well after the marriage's obvious expiration date.  Their anger and resentment bled into all aspects of their lives and their children suffered mightily for it.  My grandmother used to say, nothing is deader than dead love, and she was absolutely right.  

I don't know anyone who would suggest that ALL members of ANY generation are moving in positive directions, that certainly isn't my opinion.  However, it disturbs me deeply when the younger generation is painted with an ugly brush, as if they are a monolith.  

Everything in the garden is far from rosy.  If the generation that did the planting had tended it more closely and cared for the soil a bit, many of these young sprouts wouldn't be struggling so hard to flourish.


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## grahamg (Oct 7, 2018)

*Bad or aggressive behaviour*



StarSong said:


> I don't disagree that some kids would benefit if their parents found a way toward harmony and kept marriages intact.  Anecdotally, two couples who are quite close friends separated for a time when their children were teens.  Both got counseling and put their marriages back together.  Their ability to patch things up has surely been a positive for their children.  I've also known people with children who split for relatively small reasons and part of the legacy is that their kids are not good at resolving small issues in their own marriages.  Their go-to solution is to walk away
> 
> On the whole though, my (second hand) experience with divorce is that it's a positive and that most people stayed well after the marriage's obvious expiration date.  Their anger and resentment bled into all aspects of their lives and their children suffered mightily for it.  My grandmother used to say, nothing is deader than dead love, and she was absolutely right.
> 
> ...



A thirteen year old boy I know, who is the son of a friend of mine, told me of his experiences at his school today. He said most of the children at his school were essentially loutish or aggressive, and he's a quite intelligent young man (whose parents are still together though maybe struggling a bit for various reasons).

Its just one comment of course, so not indicative of the situation elsewhere at all obviously, and of course its great not all kids are by any means aggressive or out of control. So, its just whether the trend is towards better behaviour or not is the question, and some including myself feel there is a whirlwind to be reaped if the reports and views given in the articles I've listed are borne out.

I'll have to think about whether "anything is deader than dead love", as your grandmother asserted, but I'm tending to think she maybe exaggerated a little  .


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## StarSong (Oct 7, 2018)

My grandmother's remark was made in the context of one person wanting to revive a relationship when the other was clearly not interested and had already moved on.


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## grahamg (Oct 7, 2018)

*Dead as a Dodo then*



StarSong said:


> My grandmother's remark was made in the context of one person wanting to revive a relationship when the other was clearly not interested and had already moved on.




Ahhhh.....with you now, and yes that's pretty dead I agree, at least as dead as a "Dodo"  !


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## grahamg (Oct 7, 2018)

More from the article (the link was provided for above, but its here again for your convenience):

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lif...06-p5085i.html


We must wake up to the terrible fate that will befall our children if we don't act to change how things are. How we are. By the age of four, most youngsters are already "self-sufficient" on a tablet or mobile phone, and are able to navigate their way around apps, games and downloadable content. How depressing is that? At this rate, an entire generation may never learn to talk, unless it's to Alexa.

I would rather my daughter were self-sufficient in climbing trees and skinning her knees than manically pedalling her way through spelling tests. Saving childhood isn't about harking back to some Enid Blyton era of ginger beer and little Rees-Moggs dressed in three-piece pinstripes.


It is about nurturing our offspring the way nature intended, preserving their freedom and safeguarding mental health. Today's 18- to 24-year-olds are the loneliest section of society due in no small part to their excessive social media use. If we don't want that to happen to younger children, we must urgently engage in a national debate about what it is we do want.


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## C'est Moi (Oct 7, 2018)

As the senior generation, our values and opinions are fleeting as we all fade away.   The only constant in the world is change; things never remain the same whether good or bad.   So we can opine freely about the crisis our children face; we likely won't be here long enough to see whether our dire predictions pan out.


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## Shalimar (Oct 7, 2018)

I don’t see it as an absolute either or situation. It is possible to enjoy social media in all its forms, and still be active in all the usual child pursuits. As for young adults, many eat low meat high vegetable content diets, wear fitbits, spend weekends kayaking, mountain biking, camping with friends etc. Loneliness is often a passage for the young as they struggle with the pangs of incipient adulthood, it certainly was for many in my generation. Many of us  were hippies, and probably the most derided generation in a long time, yet, here we are, and the sky hasn’t fallen.


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## grahamg (Oct 8, 2018)

*Grandchildren will though*



C'est Moi said:


> Grahamg wrote:
> More from the article (the link was provided for above, but its here again for your convenience):
> 
> https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lif...06-p5085i.html
> ...




We do have to think about our grandchildren, if we have any don't we, or they'll be harshly judging us foolish human beings wont they (if they've got any insight into whatever lead the world astray should the predictions in the links above come true?)?

I'm just doing my bit here to stimulate the debate called for by Judith Woods in her recent article (to polish my halo a little  ).


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## StarSong (Oct 8, 2018)

grahamg said:


> Quote:
> "It is about nurturing our offspring the way nature intended, preserving  their freedom and safeguarding mental health. *Today's 18- to  24-year-olds are the loneliest section of society *due in no small part  to their excessive social media use. If we don't want that to happen to  younger children, we must urgently engage in a national debate about  what it is we do want."
> 
> We do have to think about our grandchildren, if we have any don't we, or they'll be harshly judging us foolish human beings wont they (if they've got any insight into whatever lead the world astray should the predictions in the links above come true?)?
> ...



I have no reason to believe the highlighted statement is true.  Or, if it is, that said group is any lonelier than it's ever been.  

Our grandchildren SHOULD judge us harshly; we have much to answer for. Worldwide, the balance scales for the Baby Boomer generation is tilting heavily toward the negative.  It's pretty much a lock-solid guarantee that historians won't be discussing the demons of social media. 

They'll focus on our irresponsible, voracious use of natural resources, the turning of our planet into a toilet, our weak-willed avoidance of overwhelming evidence of global warming, and the averting of our eyes, hearts, judiciary fairness, and wallets from atrocities both large and small.


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## Shalimar (Oct 8, 2018)

StarSong said:


> I have no reason to believe the highlighted statement is true.  Or, if it is, that said group is any lonelier than it's ever been.
> 
> Our grandchildren SHOULD judge us harshly; we have much to answer for. Worldwide, the balance scales for the Baby Boomer generation is tilting heavily toward the negative.  It's pretty much a lock-solid guarantee that historians won't be discussing the demons of social media.
> 
> They'll focus on our irresponsible, voracious use of natural resources, the turning of our planet into a toilet, our weak-willed avoidance of overwhelming evidence of global warming, and the averting of our eyes, hearts, judiciary fairness, and wallets from atrocities both large and small.


Wow. Post of the week!


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## grahamg (Oct 8, 2018)

*I must be odd........*



StarSong said:


> Graham wrote:
> Quote from Judith Woods article:
> Quote:
> "It is about nurturing our offspring the way nature intended, preserving  their freedom and safeguarding mental health. *Today's 18- to  24-year-olds are the loneliest section of society *due in no small part  to their excessive social media use. If we don't want that to happen to  younger children, we must urgently engage in a national debate about  what it is we do want."
> ...




I'm probably very odd but I do try to avoid most people's children these days. You don't get to know many children I guess, "at my great age", unless it is through your grandchildren, (should you be seeing them). Obviously there is a slight worry what might happen when you do encounter other's children, and that is in your mind too.

So, from afar I agree with the comments made in those articles, and from my father's rights days I know of some research done to evaluate the effects upon children following marital breakdown, and I feel it is complacent to assume young children will somehow develop a better sense of what should be done to the planet than those of us who have gone before have managed (though I agree with your concerns totally).


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## StarSong (Oct 8, 2018)

I'm sorry that you avoid contact with children.  I typically smile and chat with children and their parents for a moment whether it's when we cross paths in a grocery store, library, park, dentist office, church, or pass each other while strolling the neighborhood.  Even that small amount of contact is enough to brighten a day and lift my spirits.


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## grahamg (Oct 9, 2018)

*Not quite that strong*



StarSong said:


> I'm sorry that you avoid contact with children.  I typically smile and chat with children and their parents for a moment whether it's when we cross paths in a grocery store, library, park, dentist office, church, or pass each other while strolling the neighborhood.  Even that small amount of contact is enough to brighten a day and lift my spirits.




Obviously I don't avoid the children of friends, or my extended large family, so sorry for giving you that impression, and through church there are still a few children present on occasions too. Smiling and chatting as you do to the children of people you don't know, or have no connection with at all is probably where I choose to draw the line right now (though of course you can observe without engaging).


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