# Veganism



## Mike (Feb 24, 2019)

I am not sure where I should have put this, so if it
is in the wrong place, I apologise.

Veganism, is big in the UK, the latest fad and some
of the practitioners of it are very nasty, "Flash Mobbing"
restaurants and farms for selling meat and the customers
for eating it, really bad, one company said that they would
phase out woolen clothes, because it is cruelty to sheep.

Then somebody said that it was good for sheep to be sheared,
so the woolen clothes stay.

Anyway, I read an article which I will put a link to below, I have
always argued that being vegetarian is not for everybody and I
read an article several years ago about a man who went down
that road and became sick with all sorts of problems, until one
day he decided to give it up and bought steak, he was cured of
his illness like magic he said.

This article is written by Sarah Vine and is very good, informative
and humorous, she was doing a test to see if veganism was for her,
it wasn't and this article is in the Newspaper.

The Whole Story, click here.

Mike.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike said:


> Anyway, I read an article which I will put a link to below, I have
> always argued that being vegetarian is not for everybody and I
> read an article several years ago about a man who went down
> that road and became sick with all sorts of problems, until one
> ...



It's definitely not for everyone. Our species has been omnivorous for too long for everyone to be able to stop eating meat. I was able to easily become a vegetarian 27 years ago. For my mental and physical health, I've switched to veganism. I've been a vegan for a month now. I'm still trying to determine if my body is adjusting.

The militant vegans are like the SJW's or Antifa. They have misplaced anger. Homo sapiens is naturally opportunistic. We like to point fingers at each other and call it narcissism. The anger won't stop until we take a look at what we really are and how to consciously overcome that. This is one of the things religion tries to do, but logic and corruption are eroding that construct.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 24, 2019)

Good article, Thanks.

I've read about people that only eat fruits, nuts, and seeds that can be harvested without harming the plant that they come from. It's an interesting idea but it wouldn't work for me.

My biggest concern with eating meat is that the meat is raised and processed in enormous facilities using what are to me some very scary practices. I would prefer to see a trend towards decentralizing food production and returning to smaller mom and pop operations. I doubt that will ever happen because although we tend to talk about quality we always end up letting price dictate the bulk of our choices.

The days of Soylent Green are probably not far off!nthego:


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> My biggest concern with eating meat is that the meat is raised and processed in enormous facilities using what are to me some very scary practices. I would prefer to see a trend towards decentralizing food production and returning to smaller mom and pop operations. I doubt that will ever happen because although we tend to talk about quality we always end up letting price dictate the bulk of our choices.



We can end factory farming and solve many other problems if we walk away from commercial society and form self sufficient communities. However, people seem addicted to the rat race. Absurdist entertainment is everywhere, there's no reason to pay for it.


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## treeguy64 (Feb 24, 2019)

I turned vegetarian at 25, vegan at 40. I weigh the same as I did in high school, 155 lbs., can work on trees for six hours, straight, when my 21-25 year old (carnivorous) crew members have to break for lunch, and still do most things I did at thirty, with about the same frequency and intensity. For me, giving up eating dead animal flesh was a no-brainer: I am morally opposed to the taking of any animal life, and I am appalled by the horror of the same. While I fully understand that some humans may have a tough time with giving up consuming dead animals, I feel that the negative experiences involved with doing so are mostly due to the ignorance of those attempting the same without getting guidance from those of us who have done so, successfully. To be sure, it helps that I am a gourmet, vegan chef, and can do amazing things with all things vegan. 

 "I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men."
-Leonardo da Vinci


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

I met a guy online who was a vegan diligently for years. He suddenly became unable to digest food properly and became a stick. He now has a strict diet of beef and very little else to keep him alive. The situation frustrates him.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Aquaponics is an efficient low maintenance way to grow enough vegetables to live on. The system also produces fish to feed humans who need animal protein and cats.


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## treeguy64 (Feb 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> I met a guy online who was a vegan diligently for years. He suddenly became unable to digest food properly and became a stick. He now has a strict diet of beef and very little else to keep him alive. The situation frustrates him.



I am very suspicious of these anecdotal entries concerning online meetings. No offense intended, whatsoever. Many times, I get the feeling that these "real life incidents, as related to me, online," are used to advance negative agendas, although I hope you are sincere in your dietary ways.


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## Happyflowerlady (Feb 24, 2019)

I think that veganism is mostly defined by what people do not eat (animal products), rather than what they DO eat; so whether or not a person is a vegan does not automatically mean that this person is eating healthy foods. 
Theoretically, you could have coffee and Twinkies for breakfast, peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and French fries for supper, and still be considered a vegan; but that does not mean that you are now eating a healthy diet. 

I actually have a friend who read all about being a vegan from Dr. Gregor’s Book, “How Not to Die”, and decided that being a vegan was what would restore her health. 
The problem was that neither she nor her husband liked vegetables, so their whole diet was mostly grain-based, with lots of whole-grain desserts and cereals. 
She was not getting any vegetables before the vegan diet either; so one was probably about as unhealthy as the other, except she was using whole grains on the vegan diet. 

That being said, I think that a plant-based diet is what was intended for humans to eat, and even the Bible seems to support that idea. 
It was not until man was removed from the Garden of Eden that he was told he could eat meat; before that, they ate only plant foods, and the first thing that God did was plant a garden for them. 

I am a mostly-vegetarian, but still eat some animal products, and I don’t have a problem with milk or cheese, although I think that the way we process it is not humane for the animals. 
When I used to have my own milk goat, she was perfectly happy to be milked each day; but she lived a far different lifestyle from what the commercial dairy animals live. 

Greens are almost overlooked as a food source, yet they are one of the most nutritious foods that we can eat, and we do not get nearly as much as we should in our diet. 
An excellent book that explains about plant nutrition is “Green For Life” by Victoria Boutenko, and whether or not a person wants to be a vegan or vegetarian, it is good to add more healthy plant foods into our diet.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

treeguy64 said:


> I am very suspicious of these anecdotal entries concerning online meetings.



I've know him for a while. He's always close to death.



treeguy64 said:


> Many times, I get the feeling that these "real life incidents, as related to me, online," are used to advance negative agendas



I've noticed that bias tends to make vegans, SJW's, and Antifa fly off the handle pretty easily.



treeguy64 said:


> although I hope you are sincere in your dietary ways.



I'm not a liar.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I think that veganism is mostly defined by what people do not eat (animal products), rather than what they DO eat; so whether or not a person is a vegan does not automatically mean that this person is eating healthy foods.
> Theoretically, you could have coffee and Twinkies for breakfast, peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and French fries for supper, and still be considered a vegan; but that does not mean that you are now eating a healthy diet.



It's funny to read vegans telling people to open a *can* of beans or eat vegan at Taco Bell.


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## CarolfromTX (Feb 24, 2019)

I think that many vegans are virtue signaling. "I'm a better person than you are because I don't eat meat. You eat meat, therfore you are cruel and inhumane." My attitude is that I don't care if you only eat plants, but it's none of your damn business what I eat and please go away. Then when they use perjorative phrases like "eating dead animals" as though picking out a roast at the grocery store is akin  to eating road kill, I really get annoyed. Should we eat more veggies? You bet. And I'm happy for those of you who are gourmet chefs and can turn kohlrabi into a Michelin star meal, but again, it sounds a lot like virtue signaling to me, and not like real life. Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat. I had pot roast last night for dinner. It was delicious.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat.



That is a sure way to piss off a meat eater. Vegans, take note.


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## Happyflowerlady (Feb 24, 2019)

What I have noticed is that there are people who become vegan for humanitarian reasons (and I see nothing wrong with that), and then there are people who choose to eat that way for health reasons. 
The people who are motivated by humanitarian reasons are pretty much the ones who attack and criticize people who eat animal products. 

The truth of that is, most people would not eat nearly as much meat if they had to raise and kill it themselves. When we buy meat at the grocery store, we are removed from seeing that meat as the living creature that it once was, and see it only as food we want to eat for dinner. 
Having lived in the country, raised and killed chickens, rabbits, and other livestock for food; I no longer would do that in order to have meat to eat. 
I don’t even want to catch and eat a fish anymore. 
The way that commercial livestock and chickens are raised NEEDS to be changed, because these animals suffer horribly, and unnecessarily, just because the animal is easier to house and kill that way. 

But, just not eating meat is not going to make a person healthy, and it is equally important to give our body the nutrition that we need.  Plant foods are an important way that we can do that, and I am totally in favor of a person adding more plant food to their diet. 
Regardless, it is each person’s choice what they want to eat, or how they want to live their life, and I do not agree with the demonstrators who try to change people’s minds in that manner.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Happyflowerlady said:


> The people who are motivated by humanitarian reasons are pretty much the ones who attack and criticize people who eat animal products.



Well, that's my main motivation, if you mean looking out for the welfare of other species. However, I lead by example. Authoritarianism is obviously catastrophic.

The humanitarian aspect is preventing the damage animal farming is doing to our environment.


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## Capt Lightning (Feb 24, 2019)

Of course I eat dead animals.  What do people expect - that I eat live ones?

Now, I agree with many of Happyflowerlady's points about how food is produced, but that is exactly why I AM happy to help raise pigs and sheep.  I know that they have been well looked after and had a natural  outdoor life.  I would also add that these are rare breed animals, NOT the high yield commercial  types, and if it was not for enthusiasts keeping the breed going, they would die out. 

I also grow as many vegetables as possible - sometimes it's the only way to get a bit of flavour.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Capt Lightning said:


> if it was not for enthusiasts keeping the breed going, they would die out.



I always find that a strange argument.


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## Keesha (Feb 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> That is a sure way to piss off a meat eater. Vegans, take note.


Haha. You are funny. :lofl:


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## treeguy64 (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I think that many vegans are virtue signaling. "I'm a better person than you are because I don't eat meat. You eat meat, therfore you are cruel and inhumane." My attitude is that I don't care if you only eat plants, but it's none of your damn business what I eat and please go away. Then when they use perjorative phrases like "eating dead animals" as though picking out a roast at the grocery store is akin  to eating road kill, I really get annoyed. Should we eat more veggies? You bet. And I'm happy for those of you who are gourmet chefs and can turn kohlrabi into a Michelin star meal, but again, it sounds a lot like virtue signaling to me, and not like real life. Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat. I had pot roast last night for dinner. It was delicious.



Pfft!  Eating dead animals, is eating dead animals, no matter the source. Bon appetit, and a bone in your teeth!


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike said:


> Veganism, is big in the UK, the latest fad and some
> of the practitioners of it are very nasty, "Flash Mobbing"
> restaurants and farms for selling meat and the customers
> for eating it, really bad, one company said that they would
> ...



These activist extremists who threaten and harass other citizens, business and farms should be arrested, IMO.  They have gone off the deep end and others should not be subjected to their aggressive bullying tactics.  I saw one man with a vegan tattoo on his neck, some of them seem to use this as a sense of worth in their lives, maybe they've done nothing else to build their self-esteem, so now they're part of a group.

I know someone who has been a vegan for years, the good thing about them is they let the other members of their family eat what they choose to, they don't demand spouse and children follow what they choose to eat, and all meals are prepared with consideration for the entire family and guests.  They don't look down on others who don't follow their lifestyle choices, mutual respect is key in this society.

I eat a lot more vegetarian meals now than I used to when I was younger, but also enjoy a rib-eye steak, chicken breast, etc. when I want.  I would never be so self-involved as to demand that anyone else eat like I do.  Everything in moderation is key to health, and if someone doesn't care to be healthy at all, it's their choice, their body.

Extremists in any group are generally hateful and bad news, in my opinion.


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## SeaBreeze (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I think that many vegans are virtue signaling. "I'm a better person than you are because I don't eat meat. You eat meat, therfore you are cruel and inhumane." My attitude is that I don't care if you only eat plants, but it's none of your damn business what I eat and please go away.
> 
> Should we eat more veggies? You bet. And I'm happy for those of you who are gourmet chefs and can turn kohlrabi into a Michelin star meal, but again, it sounds a lot like virtue signaling to me, and not like real life. Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat. I had pot roast last night for dinner. It was delicious.



I agree with all you've said here Carol,  we're all individuals who think and behave differently (thank goodness), I don't demean the average vegan or vegetarian, and expect the same treatment from them.  The extremists are another story, I have no respect for bullies.


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## Keesha (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I think that many vegans are virtue signaling. "I'm a better person than you are because I don't eat meat. You eat meat, therfore you are cruel and inhumane." My attitude is that I don't care if you only eat plants, but it's none of your damn business what I eat and please go away. Then when they use perjorative phrases like "eating dead animals" as though picking out a roast at the grocery store is akin  to eating road kill, I really get annoyed. Should we eat more veggies? You bet. And I'm happy for those of you who are gourmet chefs and can turn kohlrabi into a Michelin star meal, but again, it sounds a lot like virtue signaling to me, and not like real life. Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat. I had pot roast last night for dinner. It was delicious.



I can definitely relate to this. 
When I was younger I had two friends who eloped to New Zealand for 6 months. The only work they could find was at a slaughter house. After this experience they became vegetarian. I’m not knocking them; I probably would have to if I had that experience but they both were so pale that they were green around the gills. They were anorexic looking but kept on about how committed they were  to never again eat animals. I was really worried about my friend. 

I actually think highly of humans that are consciously aware of where their food comes from and care about our world as well as the other animals it habitats but I don’t take kindly to those trying to make me feel guilty for my personal choices. 
I don’t eat much meat and probably could become vegan but my husband is a huge meat & potato man. If I stopped feeding him I might as well pack my bags cause he’d be unbearable to live with. nthego:


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

Keesha said:


> Haha. You are funny. :lofl:



I meant that vegans should refrain from doing that, if they hope to persuade.


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## Mike (Feb 24, 2019)

This has grown larger than I thought as I was
only passing on some information that might
interest you and it certainly did.

I don't care who you are or what you are or
what religion or nationality you are, gay or
straight, smoker, drinker, any of the above,
that is your choice, I have my choices also.

What I disagree with is people who try to get
me to follow their choice of lifestyle, I don't
want to.

I am friends with a couple who recently changed
from vegetarianism, to veganism, they are still
my friends.

Mike.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

I was attacked online by a vegan, because I'm not a militant vegan. Activism always seems to take a wrong turn. I think the best ways to make a difference are by our choices and being examples.


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## Aunt Bea (Feb 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> Activism always seems to take a wrong turn. I think the best ways to make a difference are by our choices and being examples.


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## Happyflowerlady (Feb 24, 2019)

Nihil said:


> I was attacked online by a vegan, because I'm not a militant vegan. Activism always seems to take a wrong turn. I think the best ways to make a difference are by our choices and being examples.



I agree with this, not just with food choices, but pretty much with anything; our example speaks much louder than any words we utter. 
Because I am in SO much better health than I was (even 10-15 years younger), and I attribute that to mostly dietary and lifestyle changes, I always want to share about the benefits of a plant-based diet, and moderate exercise.  However, trying to tell someone that they are eating unhealthy foods, or being cruel to animals, is very unlikely to encourage anyone to change, so I just try to share how it has helped me.


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## Mike (Feb 24, 2019)

Happyflowerlady said:


> I just try to share how it has helped me.



That is the best way to do it Happyflowerlady, when I try to tell
somebody about something that has helped me, I always add that
it doesn't work for everybody, but you won't know till you try.

Mike.


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## C'est Moi (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> I think that many vegans are virtue signaling. "I'm a better person than you are because I don't eat meat. You eat meat, therfore you are cruel and inhumane." My attitude is that I don't care if you only eat plants, but it's none of your damn business what I eat and please go away. Then when they use perjorative phrases like "eating dead animals" as though picking out a roast at the grocery store is akin  to eating road kill, I really get annoyed. Should we eat more veggies? You bet. And I'm happy for those of you who are gourmet chefs and can turn kohlrabi into a Michelin star meal, but again,* it sounds a lot like virtue signaling to me, and not like real life.* Don't get on your high horse and tell me to stop eating meat. I had pot roast last night for dinner. It was delicious.





SeaBreeze said:


> I agree with all you've said here Carol,  we're all individuals who think and behave differently (thank goodness), *I don't demean the average vegan or vegetarian, and expect the same treatment from them.  The extremists are another story, I have no respect for bullies*.



Yes and yes.   I don't know why some people can't state their preferences without demeaning others.   So childish.


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## CarolfromTX (Feb 24, 2019)

Do vegans feed their pets vegan pet food? I'm sure it exists, and I would guess vegans probably do. Since pets can't talk, there's no telling how the pets feel about it. If a vegan cat kills a mouse, does the vegan owner take it away? Or shame the cat on the internet? OK, I'm being silly here, but I guarantee it's not too far from reality.


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## Nihil (Feb 24, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> Do vegans feed their pets vegan pet food? I'm sure it exists, and I would guess vegans probably do. Since pets can't talk, there's no telling how the pets feel about it. If a vegan cat kills a mouse, does the vegan owner take it away? Or shame the cat on the internet? OK, I'm being silly here, but I guarantee it's not too far from reality.



I have 8 cats, and that's nowhere near my reality.


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## fmdog44 (Feb 25, 2019)

Vegetables are just weeds that come from upper class families.


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## Mike (Feb 25, 2019)

CarolfromTX said:


> Do vegans feed their pets vegan pet food?


There was another article a few weeks ago in the newspaper Carol
about vegans and vegetarians feeding their cats and dogs vegan
meals, the consensus was the it was bad for the animals.

Mike.


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## Nihil (Feb 25, 2019)

Mike said:


> the consensus was the it was bad for the animals.



Cats have to have meat. I give mine chicken, turkey, and tuna. If people approached life logically and scientifically, then their emotions might not cause so much harm. Our species has an advanced ability to learn and overcome genetics, and we blow it.


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## Nihil (Mar 4, 2019)

Nihil said:


> I have 8 cats, and that's nowhere near my reality.



I have 7 cats. I apparently have an imaginary cat as well.

I just winged some vegan sloppy joes. I asked the local produce kid to order some silken tofu in aseptic packaging, so I could make creamy condiments. He ordered 3 different kinds of highly perishable tofu, which don't make cream. I'm obliged to buy as much as I can, as this side of town is big on meat.


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## Trade (Mar 4, 2019)




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