# Is the stock market trying to play nice today?



## Pecos (Oct 3, 2019)

I see that the stock market has crawled up a little bit today. This rollercoaster ride has been a bit rough lately. I can just imagine money sloshing back and forth between the bond side of our balanced funds and the stock side.


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## Don M. (Oct 3, 2019)

The Stock Market has been a rollercoaster all of this past year.  I usually watch CNBC every morning at breakfast, and check in with the financials on the Internet a couple of times during the day.  A dozen "experts" offer a dozen different reasons for the ups and downs, but to me, it seems that the common denominator is the latest "Tweet".  I wish Twitter would close a certain unnamed individuals account....we would All be better off.


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## Floridatennisplayer (Oct 3, 2019)

I’ve drastically reduced my exposure to the equities market.  The market is now manipulated so much by baseless twitter, FB, fake news, and clueless media comments.  Tired of them manipulating my money.


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## Aunt Bea (Oct 4, 2019)

It feels like a bad year but so far it has been pretty good.

The Dow opened at 23,346.24 on 01/02/19 and closed yesterday at 26,201.04.

Those gains could be erased today but I have faith in the growth of the markets over time.

_“The intelligent investor is a realist who sells to optimists and buys from pessimists.”_- _Benjamin Graham

“You make most of your money in a bear market, you just don’t realize it at the time.”_- _Shelby Cullom Davis

“A 10% decline in the market is fairly common—it happens about once a year. Investors who realize this are less likely to sell in a panic, and more likely to remain invested, benefitting from the wealth-building power of stocks.”_- _Christopher Davis_


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## mathjak107 (Oct 4, 2019)

Aunt Bea said:


> It feels like a bad year but so far it has been pretty good.
> 
> The Dow opened at 23,346.24 on 01/02/19 and closed yesterday at 26,201.04.
> 
> ...



remember the dow numbers and s&p numbers do not include dividends in them so just looking at the dow being x and now it is y does not calculate in the dividends .


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## fmdog44 (Oct 4, 2019)

Up & downs- everyone knows they happen so why worry if you're in it for the long haul? Granted, the "long haul" is shorter for seniors but I mostly ignore fluctuations like I ignore waves in the ocean. I have self guided my investments and I am sure a pro _may _have done better but they may have done worse. I let Merrill Lynch guide an IRA I had and they cost me money. I would have been better off not agreeing to one big move they made that lost money the day it kicked in. I never set out to earn as much as possible rather, to build my money so I am comfortable in my retirement.
This week one day down 500+ then up 235 +/_ today up 355 & counting ?????


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## Victor (Oct 7, 2019)

I have an unfortunate streak of buying a stock after positive research, only to see it go down, promptly. But they have large dividends. I can tell you what NOT to buy, not what to buy.


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## mathjak107 (Oct 7, 2019)

Large dividends only mean the share price gets reduced even more by the payout  needing more appreciation to overcome the payout ...


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 25, 2019)

As long as you're in it for the long haul, "enjoy" the ride.  As you probably know by now, the Dow recently passed 28,000 for the first time. Crash warnings have been issued by various analysts for a couple of years now and I don't doubt it will happen. But the market has always rebounded after crashes and those who didn't jump ship (ie: selling at a low) benefitted from those rebounds.


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## Liberty (Nov 25, 2019)

Times I've made money in the market on stock purchases have been when the market was really down. Hey, its easy, right, just buy low and sell high...lol!


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## Catlady (Nov 25, 2019)

This bull market will be 11 years old on 3/9/2020.  I wish the bear market would come and get it over with so I can buy my list of stocks on sale.  This waiting is getting on my nerves, knowing that if I buy now it will soon drop 30-50% when the bear shows up.


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## Liberty (Nov 25, 2019)

PVC said:


> This bull market will be 11 years old on 3/9/2020.  I wish the bear market would come and get it over with so I can buy my list of stocks on sale.  This waiting is getting on my nerves, knowing that if I buy now it will soon drop 30-50% when the bear shows up.


Yep, that's when you can make the moola!


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 25, 2019)

PVC I take advantage buying opportunities after year end capital gains are paid. They cause my mutual funds to dip in price (temporarily, of course).  Funds may be anywhere from $2 and change to almost $4 lower after those gains are paid out.  I've learned not to "spend" all my cash though, so like you, I'll be taking advantage of bear market NAVs.


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## OneEyedDiva (Nov 25, 2019)

PVC said:


> This bull market will be 11 years old on 3/9/2020.  I wish the bear market would come and get it over with so I can buy my list of stocks on sale.  This waiting is getting on my nerves, knowing that if I buy now it will soon drop 30-50% when the bear shows up.


PVC I wait until the year end capital gains are paid out to buy some of my shares.  A couple of my funds pay healthy CGs and can drop the NAVs by between $2 and change and almost $4 a share.  I've learned not to spend all my cash though, so like you, I'll have enough to buy more shares at bear market prices. However, even with the big crash of 2008, none of my funds lost even 30% of their value.  In fact I took a major distribution from one at a profit. But of course, as they say, pass performance is no guarantee of future results.


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## Catlady (Nov 25, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> PVC I take advantage buying opportunities after year end capital gains are paid. They cause my mutual funds to dip in price (temporarily, of course).  Funds may be anywhere from $2 and change to almost $4 lower after those gains are paid out.  I've learned not to "spend" all my cash though, so like you, *I'll be taking advantage of bear market NAVs*.


I don't have a lot of disposable income, so I can't make big bets on stocks.  Right now I only have like $5500 available for a bear market shopping spree, and I have a *mile long list of stocks and ETFs I'd like to buy*.  I don't like mutual funds, buy ETFs instead. And I'm trying very hard not to spend the measly cash I have when my favorite stocks go down a few $$.

 I just buy stocks for the fun of it, wish I had another 20 years to have some fun but who knows. I'm 77 and didn't start investing until I was 52, no one in my family or friends were into stocks, so I was pretty ignorant until then.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 25, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> PVC I take advantage buying opportunities after year end capital gains are paid. They cause my mutual funds to dip in price (temporarily, of course).  Funds may be anywhere from $2 and change to almost $4 lower after those gains are paid out.  I've learned not to "spend" all my cash though, so like you, I'll be taking advantage of bear market NAVs.


if it is not in a taxable account it is irrelevant . either way if you reinvest it's a wash . if it is a taxable account then yes , wait . no sense buying a tax liability needlessly .


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## fmdog44 (Nov 27, 2019)

11/27/19 Dow not yet closed for the day is at 28,170 +46.31


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## Liberty (Nov 27, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> 11/27/19 Dow not yet closed for the day is at 28,170 +46.31


Cool...way cool!


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## oldmontana (Nov 27, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Large dividends only mean the share price gets reduced even more by the payout  needing more appreciation to overcome the payout ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Companies have to do something with their profits and if they pay dividends.  They can buy their own stock, spend it on improvements, buy another company, pay dividends, etc.

I see nothing wrong with paying dividends ... and yes if a stock pays out one dollar in a dividend their stock price most likely will go down one dollar the day its x-dividend date but the price of good utility stocks their stock price over a year goes up.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 27, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Companies have to do something with their profits and if they pay dividends.  They can buy their own stock, spend it on improvements, buy another company, pay dividends, etc.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with paying dividends ... and yes if a stock pays out one dollar in a dividend their stock price most likely will go down one dollar the day its x-dividend date but the price of good utility stocks their stock price over a year goes up.


Unfortunately profits have zero to do with paying out dividends ...dividends are voted on by the board and paid out whether the company lost money or not ....we have seen the bluest of blue chips pay out their dividends right up to ending in the financial graveyard ..... so while there is nothing wrong with giving you what amounts to a return of capital , dividends no longer represent the health of a company .

in theory it used to mean that a company would flaunt its ability to just hand back money because they were doing so well ...investors took that as a vote of confidence...but that is a thing of the past and paying a dividend has nothing to do with a companies health ....it is simply the fact that they have to pay it  out whether they made a profit or not or risk investors crushing the stock price


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## oldmontana (Nov 27, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Unfortunately profits have zero to do with paying out dividends ...dividends are voted on by the board and paid out whether the company lost money or not ....we have seen the bluest of blue chips pay out their dividends right up to ending in the financial graveyard ..... so while there is nothing wrong with giving you what amounts to a return of capital , dividends no longer represent the health of a company .
> 
> in theory it used to mean that a company would flaunt its ability to just hand back money because they were doing so well ...investors took that as a vote of confidence...but that is a thing of the past and paying a dividend has nothing to do with a companies health ....it is simply the fact that they have to pay it  out whether they made a profit or not or risk investors crushing the stock price


\

".it is simply the fact that they have to pay it  out whether they made a profit or not or risk investors crushing the stock price"

No, its not a fact.  All the companies we own do not pay a dividend unless they have money to do so.

Most companies that can not cover their dividend with cash on hand will reduce their dividend...that is SOP>


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## mathjak107 (Nov 27, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> \
> 
> ".it is simply the fact that they have to pay it  out whether they made a profit or not or risk investors crushing the stock price"
> 
> ...


not all companies make money every year or even for years .

the list of blue chips who pay or paid dividends even when losing money is limitless ..boards never do not pay dividends ever , until the day comes they just about have the nails in the coffin.

Want some names of companies that lost money year after year,  yet kept those dividends coming ?

Gm ,Kodak ,Polaroid,Chrysler ,ibm ,Westinghouse , jc penny , radio shack ,Barnes and noble .,Washington mutual,bank of America, RITE AID ,BP OIL ,AIG. FORD , ETC ..I CAN GO ON AND ON .

The dividend stock world is littered with its fair share of recent disasters. The factors that led to the downturn of once mighty dividend payers vary greatly. Some companies simply failed to change with the times, while others have incompetent management to blame. Still others took on massive risks that eventually came back to bite them. Most of these companies exhibited at least one of the following signs before their massive dividend cuts or suspensions , a sharply falling share price, or a lack of dividend raises over a long period of time. By that time it was to late .

Never think dividends being paid have a thing to do with the company being profitable or not .... a rising dividend and rising share price are what determines a company likely doing well , not just paying a dividend out. By the time a dividend is cut the game is usually over for them like many on the list above


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## mathjak107 (Nov 28, 2019)

one thing i want to add is

you keep seeing references to just invest in the so called " dividend aristocrats "

  just invest in this group and call it a day  is the advice the mis-informed like to spew ..

however what constitutes this group changes all the time so get ready for lots of selling trying to keep up as they get bumped and replaced AFTER THE FACT THEY DID NOT LIVE UP TO EXPECTATIONS . you could be behind the curve here very easily .

these dividend aristocrats are not somehow immune to all the things that effect company's and stocks . Just like other companies, their outcomes change.

in 2009 there were 52 stocks that met the group’s strict criteria.

As of 2012, there were 51.

But of those 51, 13 were different than the original set. So over the course of just 3 years, there was a 27% change in the group’s composition.

in fact going back to 1989's list :

Of those 26, seven are still on the list today, ten were removed because they either cut or froze their dividend, four were removed for an unknown reason, and the remainder were aquired at some point. So at least ten of the 26 had an outcome that is different from the assumption of dividend growth every year through thick and thin.

Indeed, dividend stocks are a fine investment vehicle, but they are not magical and somehow immune to being a stock .


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## wasserball (Nov 28, 2019)

If you take the time element out of investments you will do very well in the stock market.  As the result of my strategy, my asset has increased in wealth equal to 1.5% of the people in the USA.  A problem I see is the financial advisors scare you by presenting only the down side of the stock market rather than its long term growth over years.  I am my own financial advisor since 1981 and profited from my decisions.  You can too, but maybe too late.


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## mathjak107 (Nov 28, 2019)

the human brain is flawed …,research shows it hates losing money more than making money . so it does not give us rational decisions when we have actual money at risk ...

when we think out things hypothetically we use different parts of the brain which can be very rational .  as soon as real money is involved we get handed bad decisions ...

so to many people end up believing their own bull-sh*t and become anti investing and end up not doing as well as they should have.

if anything i find advisers overly optimistic and most of their portfolios for retirees count on prosperity and low rates to do well . they have no real chance of having a positive return when the crap hits the fan as it always does .


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 1, 2019)

wasserball said:


> If you take the time element out of investments you will do very well in the stock market.  As the result of my strategy, my asset has increased in wealth equal to 1.5% of the people in the USA.  A problem I see is the financial advisors scare you by presenting only the down side of the stock market rather than its long term growth over years.  I am my own financial advisor since 1981 and profited from my decisions.  You can too, but maybe too late.


I agree wasserball. I've been my own financial advisor since about a year after I started investing (36 years ago). Since then, the two times I followed the advice of well known experts touting investments, they both lost money and I had to cut my losses and sell them, as previously mentioned in another thread. One did come in handy though to offset the capital gains.


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## street (Dec 22, 2019)

It has been a long upward line over the last 10 years and at sometime it will be going the other way.  Like most have said here if you invest go in it for the long haul.  If you need market money and depend on it for life then you may need to do what works for you. 
I'm a buy and hold investor just riding the waves and weathering the storms and enjoying the sunny days. It has worked very well for me.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

street said:


> It has been a long upward line over the last 10 years and at sometime it will be going the other way.  Like most have said here if you invest go in it for the long haul.  If you need market money and depend on it for life then you may need to do what works for you.
> I'm a buy and hold investor just riding the waves and weathering the storms and enjoying the sunny days. It has worked very well for me.




there are lots of all weather portfolio's that make money and protect in down markets ... we use one at this stage after  having multiple 6 figure gains just in one year alone . we still participate in markets but we also are protected in down trends .

if anyone wants to discuss  defensive portfolio's i will throw out some ideas ....


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## rkunsaw (Dec 22, 2019)

Buy low, sell high. Just looking at one of my stocks, it has been low all year. The dividends I've reinvested have gained me 266 shares of that stock. If the stock had been selling at its highest point I wouldn't have gained nearly as many shares. 

The price per share matters only when buying or selling. A high price per share makes your account look good but if you're not selling it doesn't mean much. When reinvesting dividends you are buying so a low price gets you more shares.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

rkunsaw said:


> Buy low, sell high. Just looking at one of my stocks, it has been low all year. The dividends I've reinvested have gained me 266 shares of that stock. If the stock had been selling at its highest point I wouldn't have gained nearly as many shares.
> 
> The price per share matters only when buying or selling. A high price per share makes your account look good but if you're not selling it doesn't mean much. When reinvesting dividends you are buying so a low price gets you more shares.




There is so much wrong with this post i don't know where to start .

first off there is no such thing as a loss or gain on paper because you did not sell , that is pure nonsense .

that is your value at any point in time .. whether you  just hope you can ride this same investment back up , or sell  and ride another investment is the same thing . selling may generate at tax implication but other then that , that is your value  at that point in time .

you may not care because you are hoping it goes back but that is all you got .

we all know the saying buy low sell high. no other mantra has lost more money for investors . the real deal is buy high and sell higher which makes far more money .

why?

there is another saying " objects in motion stay in motion , until they hit something .

falling prices tend to feed on themselves and go lower until they don't. know one knows what low is because we all thought low in 2008-2009 was when the market fell 1000 points.

well that momentum turned into 5000 and 6000 points. people lost their shirt trying to buy low.

a better saying is buy high and sell higher.  when that trend is already moving up that upward momentum may be the better time to buy . buy high and sell higher may be a whole lot more profitable but you never hear that.

why?

because the people who know don't tell , and the people who tell don't know.

think about it.

you are totally confused about dividends  as that statement about had the stock been at its highest point proves that fact .

buying more shares in a down market via dividends is a wash in value .

each payout has a mandatory drop in share price of an equal amount ... it is a wash when reinvesting whether the price per share is up or down .

you need to add new money and buy equity at lower prices and add to holdings increasing dollars invested beyond what you had . reinvesting merely switches the existing value around so it is configured differently but adds no more new dollars . in fact it does the opposite if you do not reinvest and leaves you with less dollars starting out being acted on .

if you have 1000 shares of a 100 dollar stock, that is 100k invested

if it falls 10% over the quarter to 90k and pays a 10% dividend you will have 81k left invested after the mandatory roll back and 9k in pocket so you have 1000 shares at 81 a share left for markets to act upon, that is 81k  . if you reinvest the 9k back in back in at this reduced price of 81 dollars you will have 1111 shares at 81 a share  or the same 90k for markets to compound on .

markets don't care about number of shares , that is why stock splits are a wash . more shares at a lower starting price equal the same value as you had .

so you need to understand there is nothing to be gained when you reinvest and share prices are down ...you need to invest new money increasing the dollars you had in a down market to see an advantage .

i suggest you do some research and get a handle on how dividends work if you are not following why you are wrong here .. stocks grow  by total return-period .  you need at least the same appreciation in the stock as the payout or you wont even see the return the dividend is ..


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## oldmontana (Dec 22, 2019)

rkunsaw said:


> Buy low, sell high. Just looking at one of my stocks, it has been low all year. The dividends I've reinvested have gained me 266 shares of that stock. If the stock had been selling at its highest point I wouldn't have gained nearly as many shares.
> 
> The price per share matters only when buying or selling. A high price per share makes your account look good but if you're not selling it doesn't mean much. When reinvesting dividends you are buying so a low price gets you more shares.


You are spot on...when you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares.

"The price per share matters only when buying or selling" That is a fact!


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> You are spot on...when you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares.
> 
> "The price per share matters only when buying or selling" That is a fact!




you get more shares but the investment is reduced by the same amount automatically .. there is no gain here at all ...go look at my example ...   

it is like a stock split . you get more shares at a lower value .. it is still the same dollars being acted on by markets ...if you don't understand this i suggest you research how dividends work .... 




if you have 1000 shares of a 100 dollar stock, that is 100k invested

if it falls 10% over the quarter to 90k and pays a 10% dividend you will have 81k left invested after the mandatory roll back and 9k in pocket so you have 1000 shares at 81 a share left for markets to act upon, that is 81k . if you reinvest the 9k back in back in at this reduced price of 81 dollars you will have 1111 shares at 81 a share or the same 90k for markets to compound on .


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> You are spot on...when you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares.
> 
> "The price per share matters only when buying or selling" That is a fact!


i really  hope you don't believe your own bull ...  because you could not be more wrong .

in fact whether one sells or not your draw rate in retirement  is based on portfolio value ... not just what you sell .  your logic is pure nonsense . if your portfolio is down 50% , sell or not that is all you have . all you are doing is hoping it goes back .

the fact you don't care what it is worth does not mean that that value does not represent your net worth at any time as well as it can be decades for that stock to come back , or maybe never like the blue chip graveyard of failed stocks 

are you trying to tell us if you close out your position each night and bought back the same stock  at the same price  that is somehow different from keeping the same money in play over night ?     you got to be kidding  with that logic ..

what we have here is the ill-informed parroting the ill-informed


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## oldmontana (Dec 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> i really  hope you don't believe your own bull ...  because you could not be more wrong .
> 
> in fact whether one sells or not your draw rate in retirement  is based on portfolio value ... not just what you sell .  your logic is pure nonsense . if your portfolio is down 50% , sell or not that is all you have . all you are doing is hoping it goes back .
> 
> ...



When you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares. 

That is a fact and you can call me ill-informed but I am not. 

"are you trying to tell us if you close out your position each night and bought back the same stock  at the same price  that is somehow different from keeping the same money in play over night ?     you got to be kidding  with that logic .."

No, and that has not got a thing to do with what I posted.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> When you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares.
> 
> That is a fact and you can call me ill-informed but I am not.
> 
> ...


but  it means nothing to you just like a stock split or a fund distribution . it is a wash

it is no different then a fund distribution or dividend is .

you go to sleep and have 10k invested in 1000 shares at 10   a share .... you wake up and the next day you got your distribution and reinvested it ..

you now have 10k invested consisting of 1100 shares at 9.09  a share ... you have more shares but the same 10k you had . the price has been lowered to match the payout automatically .

if markets go up 10%  it is still on the same 10k . whether you got a dividend or not it is still 10k you have invested being compounded on  regardless . in fact if you  didn't reinvest all you would have had is 9k left invested and the 1k dividend in pocket


so lets suppose markets fell 50%  like you say ...so now you have 5k invested ... 1100 shares at 4.55

the company pays out the same dividend so the yield is up to 20% , sounds great right ?

well you get your dividend and reinvest it .  you now have 1210 shares at 4.13  , which is the exact same 5k you had before all the pocket switching .


if markets went up 10% your 5K goes up 10%  on your 1210 shares at 4.13 .

if no dividend was paid the 5k went up 10% on your 1100 shares at 4.55

your balance is identical whether a dividend was paid and reinvested as if it was not paid out .  it is always a wash in value .


here is what you miss ...your invested dollars must be reduced by the same amount paid out ... it is mandatory ...so what you had pre ex div is the same dollars you have after ex div ...it is as if no div was ever paid in effect .

i strongly suggest you learn this and go over it because what you think you know , ain't so and the way dividends work is important to understand  .

here are the rules you fail to understand .

FINRA MANUAL :

5330. Adjustment of Orders

(a) A member holding an open order from a customer or another broker-dealer shall, prior to executing or permitting the order to be executed, reduce, increase, or adjust the price and/or number of shares of such order by an amount equal to the dividend, payment, or distribution on the day that the security is quoted ex-dividend, ex-rights, ex-distribution, or ex-interest, except where a cash dividend or distribution is less than one cent ($0.01)


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> When you are reinvesting your dividends when the stock price is low you will get more shares.
> 
> That is a fact and you can call me ill-informed but I am not.
> 
> ...




sure it does . because you are trying to tell us the value of an investment is only relevant when you sell and that is just horse-doo ... it is so wrong in logic  that i really hope you don't believe your own bull .


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> There is so much wrong with this post i don't know where to start .
> 
> first off there is no such thing as a loss or gain on paper because you did not sell , that is pure nonsense .
> 
> ...


Once again I have to disagree with some of what you wrote.  And we may be talking about apples and oranges here.  You may be referencing individual stocks only where the dividends and capital gains are taken out as distributions. I'm referencing mutual funds and ETFs that are reinvested.  The share prices don't always drop the same amount as their distributions.  For instance on the day before the dividend was paid, the share price of one of my ETFs was $56.94. The dividend was .466/share on12/12 at which time the share price was $57.51.  It closed Friday 12/20 at $58.06. So are you telling us that someone who's reinvested dividend bought 1,000 shares didn't make $550 in a week?  Also, my first shares were purchased in the $28 - $30 range.  Are you also saying that the $30 - $28 increase in share price doesn't make the dividends purchased at the former ranges worth much more money? 
In addition, one of my mutual funds paid .149/share on 12/20 @ $19.10 share.  The day before the NAV was $19.08.  Stocks, ETFs and mutual funds fluctuate in value all the time.  So yes, sometimes what you're saying holds true...but as share prices consistently increase over time as in the ETF example, I can't see how you can claim it's the same money.  BTW...the mutual fund I reference here is in a Roth.  I haven't contributed to it in over 22 years....yet the value has almost tripled.  How can it be considered the same money?


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## fmdog44 (Dec 22, 2019)

Never have I trusted the group known as "financial advisors". I was aggressive in my own picks in my early 30's winning some and losing others coming out ahead. The biggest lesson I learned throughout the years was hanging on to a very successful mutual fund when the 2008-9 crack happened. The second lesson I learned (the hard way) was investing in a emotional favorite. In my silver years I invested in many dividend stocks and they have been good to my needs and expectations. Fortunately, I don't need to invest to earn money anymore but I am hooked on watching the markets. I watched them long before I had any money to invest as my dad got me interested, thankfully.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> Once again I have to disagree with some of what you wrote.  And we may be talking about apples and oranges here.  You may be referencing individual stocks only where the dividends and capital gains are taken out as distributions. I'm referencing mutual funds and ETFs that are reinvested.  The share prices don't always drop the same amount as their distributions.  For instance on the day before the dividend was paid, the share price of one of my ETFs was $56.94. The dividend was .466/share on12/12 at which time the share price was $57.51.  It closed Friday 12/20 at $58.06. So are you telling us that someone who's reinvested dividend bought 1,000 shares didn't make $550 in a week?  Also, my first shares were purchased in the $28 - $30 range.  Are you also saying that the $30 - $28 increase in share price doesn't make the dividends purchased at the former ranges worth much more money?
> In addition, one of my mutual funds paid .149/share on 12/20 @ $19.10 share.  The day before the NAV was $19.08.  Stocks, ETFs and mutual funds fluctuate in value all the time.  So yes, sometimes what you're saying holds true...but as share prices consistently increase over time as in the ETF example, I can't see how you can claim it's the same money.  BTW...the mutual fund I reference here is in a Roth.  I haven't contributed to it in over 22 years....yet the value has almost tripled.  How can it be considered the same money?




Mutual funds are identical ...for every dollar they give you the share price is reset back ..Except mutual fund bond funds . Etf bond funds do drop the same though as stock etfs.
Mutual fund bond funds keep the interest on the side crediting the owner daily ....it does not get calculated in to the share price like etfs and stocks .

There is no exceptions ..

You need to look at the ex div. dates. And then the pay dates ..

One of my etfs went ex div last week ...the share price dropped by as much as they  WILL pay out .. but we don’t get paid and reinvested until 12/26 ...

Only mutual fund bond funds work differently not etf bond funds, mutual funds ,stocks or etf stock funds 

But for purposes of discussions it is easiest to understand from a next day perspective..

So once a stock or fund goes ex div whatever is paid out is subtracted off your value before the stock or fund can trade .....if you had 10k and got a 1k dividend then if you do not reinvest all you have is 9k being compounded on ...if markets soar the next day and shoot up 10% then you have 9k invested going up 10% and a 1 k dividend in pocket .

If you reinvest you have the exact same 10k only more shares at the reduced price at the bell and now the 10k goes up 10%

If the stock did not pay the dividend then you would have the same 10k only less shares at a higher price since it would not be reduced for a payout .

This is always , it is. Mandatory


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## rkunsaw (Dec 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> you get more shares but the investment is reduced by the same amount automatically .. there is no gain here at all ...go look at my example ...


But when the next dividend payout comes I'll get paid for more shares.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

rkunsaw said:


> But when the next dividend payout comes I'll get paid for more shares.


It is all about your total return because all growth is on dollars invested not number of shares ...whether you have 10k in 1000 shares at 10 dollars or 10k in 5000 shares worth 2 dollars a 10% gain is the same ..

 Just imagine. I give you back 100 bucks from your investment and I subtract 100 bucks off the value ...   you give me back the 100 bucks and I buy you back  100 bucks worth of stock but  Based on the reduced value.....in the end you have back what you had only now it consists of more shares at a lower value because we bought back the same dollars at a lower price ....but you have nothing additional...if it goes up 10% it is the same dollars whether we left things alone or whether we did  our little deal .


If you did not give me back the 100 bucks but kept it that 10% gain is on a balance 100 bucks less

Maybe people can see it better this way ...because the above is exactly how stocks ,funds and etfs all work

Dividends are always a return of your invested dollars and they are always subtracted off the value you have left ...always. There is no magical money that appears .


A 4% dividend is no different than pulling the same dollars  from a portfolio of non div payers assuming the same total return


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## rkunsaw (Dec 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> in fact whether one sells or not your draw rate in retirement is based on portfolio value


You are assuming I'm drawing from my funds. I am not. I'm living on my pension and SS and  don't need to draw from my investments at this time. I'm trying to make them grow so I'll have more if I do need to start taking out rather than putting in

There was a time when retires could play it  safe with their money with CD's and such, but no more. I think dividend stocks ( in quality companies) are the best way for people my age.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

rkunsaw said:


> You are assuming I'm drawing from my funds. I am not. I'm living on my pension and SS and  don't need to draw from my investments at this time. I'm trying to make them grow so I'll have more if I do need to start taking out rather than putting in
> 
> There was a time when retires could play it  safe with their money with CD's and such, but no more. I think dividend stocks ( in quality companies) are the best way for people my age.


Who cares what you do ...this is standard retirement 101 whether you do it or not ... all safe withdrawal rates are based on Portfolio value....your net worth is based on portfolio value ,,, your estate taxes if any are based on portfolio value , an asset based loan is based on portfolio value ....the fact you may not care certainly does not make the statement it only counts if one sells true


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## rkunsaw (Dec 22, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Who cares what you do ...this is standard retirement 101 whether you do it or not ... all safe withdrawal rates are based on Portfolio value


If and when I get ready to start drawing then of course I'll care what the value of my portfolio is. 

Reinvesting is Buying, Drawing is Selling.  Buy Low Sell High.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

rkunsaw said:


> If and when I get ready to start drawing then of course I'll care what the value of my portfolio is.
> 
> Reinvesting is Buying, Drawing is Selling.  Buy Low Sell High.


Well that is what I am saying ,you don’t care right now but to say it only matters if you sell as a statement is bull... that value always matters , not caring is something else


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## mathjak107 (Dec 22, 2019)

Just so every one knows the different terminology

the record date is when the fund or company looks at the record to see who gets a dividend ..anyone buying on or after the record date does not get the dividend.

the ex dividend date is usually two days prior to the record date ...that is the date the amount of what will be paid out is subtracted off the share price ..anyone buying from the record date on gets the reduced price but no dividend . So basically for every dollar they hand Or will hand you they reduce your remaining dollars by the same amount before the investment can trade again .

the payout date is the date the dividend is credited ..if it is reinvested then it is reinvested at the price that day , it could be more or it could be less .

most mutual funds go ex div and payout the same day so when you wake up in the morning you have more shares , a lower share price and the same dollars working for you as you had when you went to sleep ...you just have more shares because they were bought after the price was knocked down but they still add up to what you had prior.. if you did not reinvest then you have the same shares at a price that was reduced by the amount you were paid out ...you would have less dollars compounding if you did not reinvest then you had prior


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 24, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Mutual funds are identical ...for every dollar they give you the share price is reset back ..Except mutual fund bond funds . Etf bond funds do drop the same though as stock etfs.
> Mutual fund bond funds keep the interest on the side crediting the owner daily ....it does not get calculated in to the share price like etfs and stocks .
> 
> There is no exceptions ..
> ...


You are incorrect. There obviously *are* some exceptions. Your claims cannot change what's in black and white.  And as I already acknowledged, funds will fluctuate *anyway.* Ex dividend and pay dates have already passed on all the examples I gave you MJ.  Schwab does a very good job of letting investors know what the ex dividend and pay dates.  I also found the information on estimated distribution sheets for each investment. I'm still waiting to see how many shares will be purchased for one of the ETFs, which has the longest span between the Ex and payout date and is the only one of my investments that hasn't paid out yet. But I already know how much the per share dividend will be.


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 24, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Never have I trusted the group known as "financial advisors". I was aggressive in my own picks in my early 30's winning some and losing others coming out ahead. The biggest lesson I learned throughout the years was hanging on to a very successful mutual fund when the 2008-9 crack happened. The second lesson I learned (the hard way) was investing in a emotional favorite. In my silver years I invested in many dividend stocks and they have been good to my needs and expectations. Fortunately, I don't need to invest to earn money anymore but I am hooked on watching the markets. I watched them long before I had any money to invest as my dad got me interested, thankfully.


That's great Frmdog44.  As I've said in the past, the two times I followed financial experts' picks, I lost money.  I do way better on my own.  Like you, I didn't panic in the 2008 crash. I'm in it for the long haul.  Like the old Excedrin commercial said "When something works...that's what you use". I still invest because don't know what else I'd do with it...except I'm in the process of searching for what I'd like for new flooring throughout the apartment and to remodel my kitchen.  I vacation whenever I want, not much left to buy except food and I want to make sure I have enough to cover exorbitant N.J. nursing home fees if needed. I'm hooked on watching the markets too as well as reading financial and retirement articles.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 24, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> You are incorrect. There obviously *are* some exceptions. Your claims cannot change what's in black and white.  And as I already acknowledged, funds will fluctuate *anyway.* Ex dividend and pay dates have already passed on all the examples I gave you MJ.  Schwab does a very good job of letting investors know what the ex dividend and pay dates.  I also found the information on estimated distribution sheets for each investment. I'm still waiting to see how many shares will be purchased for one of the ETFs, which has the longest span between the Ex and payout date and is the only one of my investments that hasn't paid out yet. But I already know how much the per share dividend will be.



it has nothing to do with fund fluctuations, market action or anything else .. there is always , yes alway a mandatory reduction in the value of your investment by the same amount as is paid —-period ..  Unless it is a bond mutual fund it is impossible to not have an offset in price , it is mandatory.      but in any case this the only way it can work whether you think so or not   So tell us which fund has no reduction in price  going ex div like you say , tell us which fund you claim is exempt ....

Don’t forget a stock can go ex div and drop by a lot , and market action can make it higher then before . But even if markets went up 100% the next day it is 100% on an a lower opening balance than had it been up 100% on the price before it went ex div


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## Don M. (Dec 24, 2019)

My IRA posted the year end dividends today, and it was a nice year end "bonus".  I think it was just about this time last year when the markets tanked and it took weeks/months to recover.  I keep watching for another "correction", which appears to be quite overdue, and I wonder how long this market can keep advancing.  When, not if, the next downturn arrives, I suspect it will be quite severe.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 25, 2019)

Don M. said:


> My IRA posted the year end dividends today, and it was a nice year end "bonus".  I think it was just about this time last year when the markets tanked and it took weeks/months to recover.  I keep watching for another "correction", which appears to be quite overdue, and I wonder how long this market can keep advancing.  When, not if, the next downturn arrives, I suspect it will be quite severe.


again , it is not a bonus ... they give you a dollar in shares and take back a dollar in value , unless it is interest in a bond mutual fund . it is a wash , by sec law. if it worked any other way we would just buy a fund or stock on the record date and sell it after the ex div date and never own it  and get free money .

in a taxable account you never want to buy before a dividend just for that reason  .. you gain nothing but get a tax bill for the dividend … you wait until it goes ex div . you get the same number of shares for the same dollars invested  but no tax bill yet .

these reductions in value may not be apparent because once the fund starts trading again  it gets mixed in to the days rise or fall .

but if you did not reinvest the money that days gain would be on less dollars since you started out lower in value .  if you do reinvest , they simply buy you an equal value in shares but since the shares are at a reduced price you get more shares  but at the same dollars invested as you had .

so the days action is on the reduced starting value or the same value if you plow the money back in .

i don't know why this is so misunderstood by so many and they think it is free money from heaven that just gets sprinkled by unicorns .

no , it is the refund of money you already had in the investment and once it is paid out the share price must reflect that difference  by being lowered by the same amount .....ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!


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## rkunsaw (Dec 25, 2019)

Mathjak, one thing you should consider about dividend stocks. They are often, like myself, bought by people who hold them for many years. So for each dividend per share dollar amount paid we get that amount for all the shares we have, some bought years ago and others at various times and at different prices. There can be a big difference in what we paid for a stock 10 or 20 years ago and the current price. So much so that the drop  in price due to the current dividend payout may have little effect on us. We get the same amount per share whether we paid $2 or $20 per share.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 25, 2019)

all that matters is the amount of dollars acted on and the TOTAL RETURN ON THOSE  dollars . number of shares is irrelevant .

here is where your thinking is wrong .

at any point in time , any time there is a dividend there is a drop in investment value by an equal amount .

lets say that  10k you put in 30 years ago is now 100k today as an example  ... if the payout is a 10% dividend , to pick a number , then you will have 10k in hand and 90k working for you left after the mandatory reduction . if markets go up 100%   the next year you have 180k  being compounded on . and that 10k payout ,so for that year you have 10k in hand and 180k going on at years end .





if  you reinvested  that  10k  dividend  instead  ,  it  would buy  more shares because the 10k is purchasing the shares at a lower price after the reduction so you would have more shares but the same  10k is going back in that came out equaling the same 100k you had originally . if markets went up 100% you have 200k compounding for you  going forward

had that stock never payed out that dividend you would still have 100k since there is no reduction to offset a payout and it is the same 100k   going up 100% or 200k being compounded on  going forward …. your 200k would be made up of less shares since there was no reductions in price along the way and no buying back equal dollars in shares .

this is an extremely important concept  , as this is where every ones thinking gets skewed 

it is only about dollars invested x total return .  it has nothing to do with how many shares make up the dollars invested ..

IF THE TOTAL RETURN IS THE SAME OR GREATER  , WHETHER YOU REINVEST THE DIVIDENDS OR THE STOCK GOT THE SAME APPRECIATION WITH NO DIVIDEND THE BALANCES ARE THE SAME. the fact you ended up with more shares reinvesting has no bearing on a thing since all along the extra shares were met with an extra reduction . it is only about how much is being compounded on and how much percentage wise did it go up .


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## mathjak107 (Dec 25, 2019)

Now for tax purposes here is what is happening ...
dividends are very inefficient because you are paying taxes up front whether the total return is positive or not that year unlike the same dollars from a portfolio of non div payers where only the gain portion is taxed ..

so to offset that , over time the reinvestment of the dividend is considered new money going back in ...let’s say all these new shares were lowering your cost basis from what you originally paid . But the money going in is counted as new money .

well what happens now is your cost basis per share shows lower when you sell but remember the share price has been lowered to with every dividend so at the end of the day you have a lower cost basis but that is offset with a lower taxable gain because the share price is lowered by each payout along the way .

at the end when you sell the taxes work out the same as if it was all appreciation  because you show a lower cost basis and a lower sale price.

but how they calculate things for taxes  has nothing to do with your actual return, which is based on ,I put in x amount of dollars and this is what I made in total in appreciation and payouts I did not reinvest


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## oldmontana (Dec 25, 2019)

Don M. said:


> My IRA posted the year end dividends today, and it was a nice year end "bonus".  I think it was just about this time last year when the markets tanked and it took weeks/months to recover.  I keep watching for another "correction", which appears to be quite overdue, and I wonder how long this market can keep advancing.  When, not if, the next downturn arrives, I suspect it will be quite severe.


If you have a regular IRA, like I do I took this time to set aside money for my RMD.  On January 2nd I will transfer that money into our joint account and look for a downturn in the market to invest that cash.


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## Knight (Dec 26, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> If you have a regular IRA, like I do I took this time to set aside money for my RMD.  On January 2nd I will transfer that money into our joint account and look for a downturn in the market to invest that cash.


Being at an age where taking advantage of the markets down turn works if your risk level lets you is great. I think most understand that time is the key to what each can handle and sleep at ease. With global competition & new companies starting up no doubt doing due diligence/research is still important.


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## oldmontana (Dec 26, 2019)

Knight said:


> Being at an age where taking advantage of the markets down turn works if your risk level lets you is great. I think most understand that time is the key to what each can handle and sleep at ease. With global competition & new companies starting up no doubt doing due diligence/research is still important.


I have no problem with risk.  At my age according to many so called experts I should be like 70% in bonds and 30% in stocks.  I am 90% in stocks.  If the market goes down 50% it would not effect our standard of living.  But every person situation is not the same.

I also at times sell covered calls and with the market so high I should sell more.  But it's easy to do nothing.


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## fmdog44 (Dec 26, 2019)

Former Magellan Fund manger Peter Lynch offered up a quote this week about one general principal of investing. "You will lose more money _anticipating_ the market than being in it."


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## mathjak107 (Dec 27, 2019)

actually that is a very old quote and he originally said more money is lost in preparing for and anticipating the next downturn then has been lost in any downturn . it has been true forever .... even the great depression recovered in 4-1/2 years in dollar terms if you did not exhibit poor investor behavior . a year later 2008 recovered as well and went on to new highs


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## oldmontana (Dec 27, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> Former Magellan Fund manger Peter Lynch offered up a quote this week about one general principal of investing. "You will lose more money _anticipating_ the market than being in it."



A quote that makes sense...

*Quotes*
 I am more concerned with the return of my money than the return on my money.
Will Rogers, quoted in _Will Rogers Performer_, p. 292


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## fmdog44 (Dec 27, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> actually that is a very old quote and he originally said more money is lost in preparing for and anticipating the next downturn then has been lost in any downturn . it has been true forever .... even the great depression recovered in 4-1/2 years in dollar terms if you did not exhibit poor investor behavior . a year later 2008 recovered as well and went on to new highs


True,"Poor investor behavior"- in the real world when the stocks tremble some get scared and pull out. Others reduce holdings to pay bills because they lost the jobs so the recover time does not apply if one has pulled out reduced their holdings. If one has 100 shares at $10 per then reduces by 1/2 in the beginning of the plunge what is the value of it after the 4 1/2 years? That is a long time for the average person to sit and watch. I just wonder how many people typically reduce their holdings or jump out all together when the markets tank. Because so many young and new investors are in these days I am curious how well schooled they are. It would depend also how well they are diversified. 2020 will be a year of rumors about a recession that have already filled the airwaves.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 27, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> A quote that makes sense...
> 
> *Quotes*
>  I am more concerned with the return of my money than the return on my money.
> Will Rogers, quoted in _Will Rogers Performer_, p. 292


Then don’t be an investor .No risk no worry ...will said a lot of things that made little sense.....he also said buy land ,they are not making anymore of it ...boy was he wrong ...we have huge developments like battery park city that sits where the water once was


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## oldmontana (Dec 27, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Then don’t be an investor .No risk no worry ...will said a lot of things that made little sense.....he also said buy land ,they are not making anymore of it ...boy was he wrong ...we have huge developments like battery park city that sits where the water once was


OMG...He did not mean that!


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## mathjak107 (Dec 27, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> OMG...He did not mean that!


All investing has risk of loss  ...in fact even cd’s have a lot of inflation risk ....so while no one likes to lose money everything has a risk of loss and that risk of loss goes up with equities as well as the returns go up.

We don’t want just our money back ,otherwise we would stick it in a mattress ...we want to grow our money at least a head of inflation  as well as meeting financial goals and that is where the focus needs  to be  , not getting your money back.

another mantra that sounds good but means little ...anyone who’s main concern is return of their money should stick it in a bank ....all other options involve risk vs reward as the concern, not just getting your money back


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## fmdog44 (Dec 27, 2019)

With the coming of electric vehicles I wonder what would be a good sector to invest in. Not for me but for younger folks.


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## oldmontana (Dec 27, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> All investing has risk of loss  ...in fact even cd’s have a lot of inflation risk ....so while no one likes to lose money everything has a risk of loss and that risk of loss goes up with equities as well as the returns go up.
> 
> We don’t want just our money back ,otherwise we would stick it in a mattress ...we want to grow our money at least a head of inflation  as well as meeting financial goals and that is where the focus needs  to be  , not getting your money back.
> 
> another mantra that sounds good but means little ...anyone who’s main concern is return of their money should stick it in a bank ....all other options involve risk vs reward as the concern, not just getting your money back


If you invest in the market you better think hard how safe your investment is, that is basic investing 101 and that is what I think Rogers was saying. 

Think what you want!


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## mathjak107 (Dec 27, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> With the coming of electric vehicles I wonder what would be a good sector to invest in. Not for me but for younger folks.


Hard to say because money loves a vacuum ..right now I would say batteries ...but that could become so competitive that prices on them plunge


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## mathjak107 (Dec 27, 2019)

oldmontana said:


> If you invest in the market you better think hard how safe your investment is, that is basic investing 101 and that is what I think Rogers was saying.
> 
> Think what you want!


Your concern needs to BE RISK VS REWARD .....not  the return of your money ...like I said if your concern is return of your money put it in a bank ......don’t invest.. investing always has  more risk and there  will always be down years in every asset class always. So logically you can’t be an investor if you are concerned about Not losing money.

every asset has down years and we never know when the recovery is coming .....so what do you do with wills advice ?  Exhibit poor investor behavior and bail out ? Never invest ?

wills quotes are entertainment , they are not advice . They have either been shown to be wrong or they are just silly quips with no real financial meaning 


*Will Rogers* Quotes
Don't gamble; take all your savings and *buy* some good *stock* and hold it till it *goes up*, then sell it. If it don't *go up*, don't *buy* it.


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## Knight (Dec 28, 2019)

fmdog44 said:


> With the coming of electric vehicles I wonder what would be a good sector to invest in. Not for me but for younger folks.


Maybe the component suppliers rather than the car manufacturer for younger people especially if nano technology is involved.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 29, 2019)

Knight said:


> Maybe the component suppliers rather than the car manufacturer for younger people especially if nano technology is involved.



it is hard to say  because technology moves so fast and shifts from company to company. right now tesla is supposed to  have finished soon the biggest battery company in the world .


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 30, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> it has nothing to do with fund fluctuations, market action or anything else .. there is always , yes alway a mandatory reduction in the value of your investment by the same amount as is paid —-period ..  Unless it is a bond mutual fund it is impossible to not have an offset in price , it is mandatory.      but in any case this the only way it can work whether you think so or not   So tell us which fund has no reduction in price  going ex div like you say , tell us which fund you claim is exempt ....
> 
> Don’t forget a stock can go ex div and drop by a lot , and market action can make it higher then before . But even if markets went up 100% the next day it is 100% on an a lower opening balance than had it been up 100% on the price before it went ex div


First of all, let me say that I never said a fund is "exempt" from the mandatory price drop.  I said price drops are not always the case.  A fund may have the obligatory drop in price one time and not the next.  Here is one I'm talking about, which is an ETF.  According to Schwab's distribution page for this ETF, the Ex date was 12/12 and the record date was 12/13.  According to that same page and my account history page, the pay date was 12/17.  Now look at Yahoo Finance's daily pricing for this ETF (use adj close column) and you'll see that the share price *did not drop by the amount of the per share dividend.* I was unable to capture the screen with the ETF's ticker, SCHD while including the NAV for 12/11. Hopefully you can make this large enough to see it clearly or maybe your eyesight is better than mine.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 30, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> First of all, let me say that I never said a fund is "exempt" from the mandatory price drop.  I said price drops are not always the case.  A fund may have the obligatory drop in price one time and not the next.  Here is one I'm talking about, which is an ETF.  According to Schwab's distribution page for this ETF, the Ex date was 12/12 and the record date was 12/13.  According to that same page and my account history page, the pay date was 12/17.  Now look at Yahoo Finance's daily pricing for this ETF (use adj close column) and you'll see that the share price *did not drop by the amount of the per share dividend.* I was unable to capture the screen with the ETF's ticker, SCHD while including the NAV for 12/11. Hopefully you can make this large enough to see it clearly or maybe your eyesight is better than mine. View attachment 86227


Forget the pay date what is the ex div date...you are wrong ....you are looking at the wrong  date 

The stock closed on dec 11th at 57.41    It went ex div and paid 45 cents out ....it opened dec 12th at 56.96     45 cents less accounting for the dividend .. read that again .

They markets took the 56.96 opening and acted on it and it closed up .o17% to 57.51 ..

Had the stock not gone ex div it would have opened at 57.41 and using the same return on the day .017% it would have been .45 cents higher then it was or 58.39


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## OneEyedDiva (Dec 30, 2019)

mathjak107 said:


> Forget the pay date what is the ex div date...you are wrong ....
> 
> The stock closed on dec 11th at 57.41    It went ex div and paid 45 cents out ....it opened dec 12th at 56.96     45 cents less accounting for the dividend ..


I told you what the ex date was.  Read the post again.  Also, according to my records and the Yahoo finance page I attached, the dividend was .4666 not .45. (Where did you get 45 cents from?)  I see what you're saying about the closing the opening prices but in the end, it matters to me what the closing price is. If I'm going to say...lets see, how much is my investment worth today...I'm not going to look at the opening price and that's not the price my account summary is going to go by either.


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## mathjak107 (Dec 30, 2019)

OneEyedDiva said:


> I told you what the ex date was.  Read the post again.  Also, according to my records and the Yahoo finance page I attached, the dividend was .4666 not .45. (Where did you get 45 cents from?)  I see what you're saying about the closing the opening prices but in the end, it matters to me what the closing price is. If I'm going to say...lets see, how much is my investment worth today...I'm not going to look at the opening price and that's not the price my account summary is going to go by either.


.45 cents or .46 is irrelevant here . You see how right I was .

So you see how every pay out has an offset in the value of what you have left compounding .. you will always have less dollars compounding if you keep the dividend and don’t reinvest then you had the day before. Always

If you reinvest and the pay date is a few weeks later then you are simply putting the same .46 cents back they handed you to work for you at whatever the price is that day  or if it is the same day you are putting it back at the days reduced price ....in any case you may have more shares at the same amount you had prior to going ex div working for you.

All gains are solely on market action , not the paying out and reinvesting which is awash for the most part... more shares x a lower reset price is awash ....always. Total return is the be all and end all. By themselves dividend reinvestment carries no more increase in value then a stock split does over what you had before going ex div.

glad we can put this to bed ....... all you need to know is your total return xthe dollars invested .that is the real deal , not a share count


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## OneEyedDiva (Jan 4, 2020)

mathjak107 said:


> .45 cents or .46 is irrelevant here . You see how right I was .
> 
> So you see how every pay out has an offset in the value of what you have left compounding .. you will always have less dollars compounding if you keep the dividend and don’t reinvest then you had the day before. Always
> 
> ...


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