# Sex, Dementia ad Husband on Trial at age 78 - what are your thoughts in this



## caregiverrelief (Apr 14, 2015)

Here is an article that I read this morning-

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/h...husband-henry-rayhons-on-trial-at-age-78.html

I can tell you,as a nurse, this is always an issue. I have had families tell me, of situations, where they knew that the parents were still having sex, but, felt that the female, did not know what was going on. I find, that when it happens at home, families ignore these issues. 

In the nursing homes, This is also an issue. With dementia, there are many times, when a person with dementia ( male or female) is sexually attracted or even active in pursuing ****** activity.


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## Warrigal (Apr 14, 2015)

From what I read I can't see a problem.
I'm thinking the daughters are from a first marriage and are being a bit possessive of their mother.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 14, 2015)

There is something creepy about that old guy, and it is questionable if she had any clue to what was going on...


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## Warrigal (Apr 14, 2015)

The very old and demented like to be touched and to feel loved and special.
It's only a problem when they want to find it with someone inappropriate.


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## Cookie (Apr 14, 2015)

I've heard its quite usual for nursing home residents to pair up and find romance in their facilities.  After all, they are there in the same place. However, I find it difficult to believe that dementia patients are always willing participants.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 14, 2015)

Being touched is one thing, but the old boy coming in to satisfy his needs, perhaps, is another.  Maybe it is just me, but demented sex creeps me out, perhaps it is an issue for therapy with Shalimar; I'll put it on my extensive list of issues...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 14, 2015)

One thing we have to remember... The old and even the demented are ADULTS..  I think that fact is sometimes lost in that their behavior can be childlike.  If ****** contact is consensual and private.. we need to afford them their privacy.  I don't think we can make assumptions on whether or not someone knows what they are doing.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 14, 2015)

Consensual?  They would probably consent to a lot of things that might not be appropriate and outright violating their individual dignity...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Consensual?  They would probably consent to a lot of things that might not be appropriate and outright violating their individual dignity...



But you don't know that...  Unless someone has been declared incompetent by the court.. we cannot make assumptions..  You must keep in mind... people in nursing homes are NOT in the hospital.. they are in their home... They are not patients... they are residents..  Do you have the right to behave how you wish in your home?   That's all I am saying..


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## QuickSilver (Apr 14, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> From what I read I can't see a problem.
> I'm thinking the daughters are from a first marriage and are being a bit possessive of their mother.




I agree...  This man was her husband... and there was no abuse involved..  I think you hit the nail on the head about the daughters


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 14, 2015)

Sorry, but it just seems that the poor thing can't say, "Not today, Dear, I have a headache.",,,


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## QuickSilver (Apr 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Sorry, but it just seems that the poor thing can't say, "Not today, Dear, I have a headache.",,,



Why do you assume she is a "poor thing"?    Do you not think the human body can enjoy tenderness and loving closeness even if the mind is not all there?


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 14, 2015)

Well, if I was in that state of dementia I would consider myself a poor thing if I was capable of considering...


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## AZ Jim (Apr 14, 2015)

I consider my body a temple and impure thoughts a horrible sin.  I also am the guy who built the Empire State building in a week!!!  Of Course, there's a Santa and don't get me started on the tooth fairy.


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## Raven (Apr 14, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Sorry, but it just seems that the poor thing can't say, "Not today, Dear, I have a headache.",,,



I agree with you Ralphy.  I think it would have been nice if he held her hand, talked to her and kissed her goodnight
rather than having sex with her while another patient was on the other side of the curtain! 
I think the old guy should be charged.  Seems to me he was thinking of himself and not his ailing wife.


My Mom was in a nursing home for 7 years with dementia so I spent a lot of time visiting there.
I never heard of anything like that going on.
Most dementia patients love to hear music, especially songs they loved in years gone by.
When there was music and singing my mother and the other patients would brighten up and enjoyed the 
entertainment very much.


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## Debby (Apr 14, 2015)

Maybe she initiated the intimacy?  That 'poor thing' might have had a good strong libido that didn't stop when she forgot what a sock was.    I think if her demeanour and mood before and after the 'events' was still happy and not stressed, that might be a more sensible way to decide if this was a wrong thing to do then our notions of what is proper and acceptable.


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## Debby (Apr 14, 2015)

caregiverrelief said:


> Here is an article that I read this morning-
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/h...husband-henry-rayhons-on-trial-at-age-78.html
> 
> ...




Good article and I think it makes a lot of sense.  There was a Canadian movie years ago called 'Away From Her' with Julie Christie and Gordon Pinsent that was just such a scenario as your article described where the husband placed his wife in a care home and there she ultimately fell in love with another resident and I think began to consider the new 'lover' as her husband.  It was sweet and very sad as he struggled deeply with the change he saw happening.


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## Susie (Apr 14, 2015)

In a RIGHTEOUS society old people with dementia do not have the RIGHT to do something that might seem RIGHT to them, but not to the religious or political
                                    RIGHT.

fftopic:??????


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## Josiah (Apr 14, 2015)

Consensual sex implies that the demented woman consented. I know that my wife who is seriously demented would not be capable of consenting and I believe that her only remaining passion involves food. I found the story off-putting.


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## Butterfly (Apr 14, 2015)

This is just CRAZY!  Do older people lose their right to intimacy???  How in blazes is this anyone's business except the couple's???  We now lose our right to the pursuit of happiness at a certain AGE??

How dare a third party (including her daughters) step in and tell a married couple how to conduct (or not to conduct) their sex life?  And that attorney general pursuing this matter has some kind of weird agenda -- he is nothing but an officious intermeddler (as are the daughters).  I'm outraged!


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 14, 2015)

I think if my husband had Alzheimer's I would be most concerned with showing him tenderness and love, that I cared, and sex would probably not even be on my mind.  It would be strange to have a ****** act like that, not knowing if the other person really is wanting it or enjoying it.  Hard to tell if she was really accepting of the sex, or just tolerated it because she had no choice, or couldn't verbalize either way.

When I first read this thread, I immediately thought that it was husband and wife, and nobody else should have a say in what went on.  But then when I read that it wasn't a private room, others were present and things may have been caught on camera, it seemed more creepy to me.  However, legal charges seem to be a bit extreme if there was no sign of physical abuse.

Tough call on this one.  The husband does seem creepy just visiting for self gratification as it appears.  I don't have any personal experience with dementia, so I don't know if I'd enjoy the intimacy or be unsettled by it.  If it was my husband, I think he would hold me and kiss me, and assure me of his love, leaving his physical pleasuring out of it.


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## AprilT (Apr 14, 2015)

Dame Warrigal said:


> From what I read I can't see a problem.
> I'm thinking the daughters are from a first marriage and are being a bit possessive of their mother.



Unless there is some other information I'm missing, I'm with you on this one.  The most absurd case bringing charges against this man in my opinion and I know real abuse, this doesn't sound even close.  Should he have used better judgment, maybe, sometimes in cases where a person has Alzheimer's, family often times convince themselves the person is cognitive even if they've been deemed not to be.  This happens in almost all families when these people slip in and out of their illness and have moments when, they seem to remember and only seconds or minutes later, they haven't any idea of anything and the person visiting will lose hope again, but for a moment, they felt connected.  Who knows what went on between these two on their visits, did he more often than not just sit with her and hold her, did this time she want more and he obliged, did he just want to feel more connected, maybe that was a way in which they always felt greatly connected, may not be our way, but it might have been special to them.  I don't know.  I just think from what I read, it sounds a bit excessive charge him, unless they have some more details to share that would explain the reason for the arrest that I'm not getting than a man who dearly misses the closeness of his wife decides to use poor judgement with said wife, constitutes a crime of the century..


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## QuickSilver (Apr 15, 2015)

> Should he have used better judgment, maybe, sometimes in cases where a person has Alzheimer's, family often times convince themselves the person is cognitive even if they've been deemed not to be.



I completely agree with this statement..   Yes.. I think he should have used better judgment... particularly with another Resident in the same room...  But, I don't think he committed any crime, and certainly... charging him with one was absurd.    What happened to the marriage vows people take?   Isn't there a clause stating "In sickness and in health?"    I don't see the type of sicknesses detailed, nor do I see.. "except with dementia" as an exception.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 15, 2015)

The poor old girl probably just thought it was some attendant pulling down her pants to clean her or change her...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 15, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> The poor old girl probably just thought it was some attendant pulling down her pants to clean her or change her...



I have worked on an Alzheimers unit, as well as in nursing homes.   These patient's are very capable of being ******, and know the difference.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 15, 2015)

Having visited many female relatives in these places I just can't imagine any of them looking for sex, maybe a warm touch on the shoulder or a kiss on the cheek or, if they could stand, a hug...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 15, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> Having visited many female relatives in these places I just can't imagine any of them looking for sex, maybe a warm touch on the shoulder or a kiss on the cheek or, if they could stand, a hug...



Sometimes we are guilty of interjecting our own feelings toward a subject while pretending to know exactly what another person is feeling.


I took care of one Resident who was Italian...  From the old country..  She had dementia and lost much of her cognitive ability..  The one thing she DID remember was that she had several glasses of red wine every night.. and it gave her pleasure..  Her family got permission from the doc and the Home to bring in her wine, which she was allowed to have every evening.  She remembered that and she looked forward to it.   Not all things are forgotten Ralphy.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 15, 2015)

Not likely.They would have laughed at the thought of it.  One told me that she thought that a nurse was coming on to her and I told her that maybe a lesbian relationship might be nice.  She recoiled in horror...&#55357;&#56835;


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 15, 2015)

One assisted living home has a cocktail lounge with a piano bar!  Mostly fruit drinks served but I would have enjoyed a martini at the happy hour...


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## Butterfly (Apr 15, 2015)

I still think it is outrageous that the State stuck its nose into this couple's personal behavior.  Don't they have any REAL criminals to prosecute?

The nursing facility should have put the wife back in her own room alone, and then her and her husband's activities wouldn't disturb roommates.  The daughters should butt out.


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## Glinda (Apr 15, 2015)

I've read this article twice and I want to say the privacy of this couple was invaded.  But I have a nagging suspicion there's more than meets the eye here.  They say there wasn't abuse but I wonder.  Somehow it just doesn't add up.


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## ndynt (Apr 16, 2015)

I am surprised that this is still an issue.  Over 60 years ago, when I was in nursing training, it was a concern.  Then in the 80's, it was addressed openly and many nursing homes became more aware and accepting of the human need for touch and intimacy.
  In fact, there was a very moving film, I used in education presentations for nursing aides. http://www.keller.com/tricepts/rose.html That, after all these years, is still available.   
Yet, it still appears that acceptance has still not progressed very far, in all these years.  Though it does appear much of this irrational ado was instituted by her family.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 16, 2015)

Perhaps a respectful ****** relationship is possible, if extremely rare, and doubtful in cases of serious dementia...


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## QuickSilver (Apr 16, 2015)

ndynt said:


> I am surprised that this is still an issue.  Over 60 years ago, when I was in nursing training, it was a concern.  Then in the 80's, it was addressed openly and many nursing homes became more aware and accepting of the human need for touch and intimacy.
> In fact, there was a very moving film, I used in education presentations for nursing aides. http://www.keller.com/tricepts/rose.html That, after all these years, is still available.
> Yet, it still appears that acceptance has still not progressed very far, in all these years.  Though it does appear much of this irrational ado was instituted by her family.



I think this is where we nurses have a different outlook.   Patient's rights particularly that of privacy are drilled into us from day one of nurses training.    I remember my first nursing lecture.   The instructor stood up at the podium in the lecture hall... and asked a question..  "What would you do if you walked into a patient's room and they were masturbating?"    Of course everyone gasped and people said..  "tell them to stop it!"   Or   "tie their hands down!"....  BUT... the instructor gave the correct answer...  " You pull the curtain and leave them alone"     The point my instructor was making right off the bat on day one,  was that patients privacy rights trump all the notions the staff or others may have about what is right or what is proper.  (of course provided they are not doing physical harm to themselves or someone else). 

Having worked with the Alzheimers and dementia population, I know they are capable of tenderness, emotion and even ****** arousal.  They have moments of lucidity that surprise us.   They also have the right to privacy.  They and their families have lost so much... Why take more away?


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

I think there is an underlying societal discomfort around the idea that seniors have any sexuality whatsoever. Pleez! Sex is not only for the perky. I certainly have no plans to embrace celibacy anytime soon.


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 16, 2015)

OK, but booty calls in a nursing home might be a stretch for me...


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

Don't worry, Ralphy, I wasn't planning on visiting you! You can't keep up.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Don't worry, Ralphy, I wasn't planning on visiting you! You can't keep up.



:lofl:


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 16, 2015)

But I was planning to visit you, and I would bring the wine and candles and enjoy your "poetry."


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

Ralphy, baby, so sweet of you..but I am a young senior, you'll have to wait twenty years at least, by then you will be dead. So sad, what might have been.....


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## Ralphy1 (Apr 16, 2015)

But you will see me in your dreams...


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## AprilT (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I think there is an underlying societal discomfort around the idea that seniors have any sexuality whatsoever. Pleez! Sex is not only for the perky. I certainly have no plans to embrace celibacy anytime soon.



You are exactly right about this, I was having a discussion with some people on a site once and I remember a lot of outrage when mentioning the fact that people of a certain age participate in various acts.  People got so up in arms to the point that it was reported and I was told people were uncomfortable with thoughts of their grandparents having intimate relationships, and found such discussions vulgar, which is why they removed several people's including mine from the thread.  But, yet, they allowed discussions of oral and various other intimate things when older folks weren't mentioned.    Some people are just uncomfortable with the subject in general, though it is a natural part of the human condition regardless of age.


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

April, I may be wrong, but I think that part of the discomfort that some younger people feel about elder sex, is around the body image thing. In many minds, aacceptable sex is tied to very  narrow societal views on what constitutes a attractive appearance, ie. no fat, super toned, well proportioned, blemish free. No wonder people have such difficulties with self-esteem, and pursue unrealistic, and often dangerous body image goals. Fat shaming remains the last truly acceptable prejudice found across the board.


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## AprilT (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> April, I may be wrong, but I think that part of the discomfort that some younger people feel about elder sex, is around the body image thing. In many minds, aacceptable sex is tied to very  narrow societal views on what constitutes a attractive appearance, ie. no fat, super toned, well proportioned, blemish free. No wonder people have such difficulties with self-esteem, and pursue unrealistic, and often dangerous body image goals. Fat shaming remains the last truly acceptable prejudice found across the board.



True for many things, but in the case I was referencing, these were people in their 30's 40's and 50's complaining about those over the ages of say 60+


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

I hear you, April, but I think that many people in that age group view persons in the 60+ age group as ugly individuals who should leave the practice of sex to those who have no wrinkles or sagging skin. I got into it with one of my son's friends, a real poisonous little princess. My son warned her not to push my buttons, but her smug arrogance pushed my buttons, especially when she intimated that I might be acceptable since it 'appeared' I had taken care of myself. Mercy, Jesse started laughing, and I went off like a Celtic rocket. Strangely, she avoided me after that.  I was not kind that day.


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## AprilT (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> I hear you, April, but I think that many people in that age group view persons in the 60+ age group as ugly individuals who should leave the practice of sex to those who have no wrinkles or sagging skin. I got into it with one of my son's friends, a real poisonous little princess. My son warned her not to push my buttons, but her smug arrogance pushed my buttons, especially when she intimated that I might be acceptable since it 'appeared' I had taken care of myself. Mercy, Jesse started laughing, and I went off like a Celtic rocket. Strangely, she avoided me after that.  I was not kind that day.



People will find any reason to say yuck about intimacy for any and every reason, age, size, sagging, a disability, doesn't matter, that's just some mindsets, but, age in and of itself is cause enough for some people, doesn't matter what the person looks like, just the fact that they've past a certain age is all that matters in their minds, those are the people, I was addressing.  I've heard terrible things said about some of the most in shape women of a certain age when addressing the subject, as with many things in life, people want you to just sit on a porch and knit past a certain age, some of these people will tell you women past 40 shouldn't have hair past a certain length, wear this or that and it goes on.

Take Jane Fonda and Helen Mirren very attractive older women, I've heard things like disgusting when these women express their views on their sexuality or wear certain clothing from a few ageist types when it comes to such things.


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

Wow, April, I have experienced the ageist thing about clothes, hair, appearance, but I guess I haven't been exposed to the time limit approach to sex in quite,that way. How sad. I wonder as they age, if the opinions of the sex police will change?


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## ndynt (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Wow, April, I have experienced the ageist thing about clothes, hair, appearance, but I guess I haven't been exposed to the time limit approach to sex in quite,that way. How sad. I wonder as they age, if the opinions of the sex police will change?


:lofl: Sex police .....so funny.  Love your labeling, Shalimar.


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## Shalimar (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks, Ndynt. Sometimes, my irreverence gets me into hot water though. Thank goodness I can swim! Lol.


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## Butterfly (Apr 16, 2015)

Shalimar said:


> Wow, April, I have experienced the ageist thing about clothes, hair, appearance, but I guess I haven't been exposed to the time limit approach to sex in quite,that way. How sad. I wonder as they age, if the opinions of the sex police will change?



Probably so, but by the time the present sex police are old and saggy, there will be younger sex police stepping up to say "Ewwwww!"


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## DoItMyself (Apr 16, 2015)

Ralphy1 said:


> There is something creepy about that old guy, and it is questionable if she had any clue to what was going on...



I know Henry Rayhons quite well.  There's nothing "creepy" about him-he's a very decent man.  There is a side of the story that isn't being told until (and if) it goes to trial.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 16, 2015)

DoItMyself said:


> I know Henry Rayhons quite well.  There's nothing "creepy" about him-he's a very decent man.  There is a side of the story that isn't being told until (and if) it goes to trial.



Interesting that you know him.  Did you know his wife too?  I imagine there is a lot more to this story, it seems odd to bring charges for something like that between a man and his wife, especially when no abuse was detected.  If they had a close relationship before she became ill, I suppose it could be a lot more innocent and natural than the feeling you get when reading that article.  I hope the truth is told in the end, this whole thing seems sad.


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## Butterfly (Apr 22, 2015)

CBS news says the husband has been acquitted, as he should have been.  This was a stupid case to bring, and I wonder how much money it cost the taxpayers of Iowa to prosecute (persecute) this man.    I also wonder what the REAL motives of the prosecutor were.  I hope this bites the prosecutor hard in the butt when it comes re-election time.

IMHO the government had no business interjecting itself into this couple's relationship in the first place, and to bring criminal charges was an abuse of process, to say the least!


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## DoItMyself (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes, he was acquitted, and everyone who knew him knew that he would be.  The "act" never took place, and it was a few over zealous nursing home workers and an incompetent prosecutor that took the case that far.  They tried to drag him through the muck, and his family (as did most of the community) stood by him.  As is typical of much of the current overreach of government, they stuck their nose in where it didn't belong and a group of 12 Iowans with some common sense nipped it in the bud.



SeaBreeze said:


> Interesting that you know him. Did you know his wife too?



Yes, we know Henry and we knew Donna quite well.


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## SeaBreeze (Apr 22, 2015)

I'm glad to hear he was acquitted, must be very upsetting to go through something like that involving a loved one.  Good there were folks there to support him.


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## QuickSilver (Apr 23, 2015)

This of course was instigated by the woman's daughters.. Having personally experienced the wrath of my husband's grown daughters, for daring to marry their father after their mother died, I know how bad it can be.


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