# More worrying news for the child's best interests brigade in the UK



## grahamg (Feb 16, 2021)

I listened to BBC radio reports here in the UK of a quite alarming rise in the numbers of children self harming, and its been found to be happening more often in much younger children, and the reports suggested the only solution being considered is offering more money or support via mental health services etc.

Here is the challenge for all those of you who believe our family law should rest upon an assessment of the best interests of the child criteria, or legal principle, thus denying decent parents any legal rights in the UK once they've separated from their partner, "Who do you believe loves those self harming children, or might love them to help raise their esteem more than the decent parents getting excluded every day in the UK by family court decisions"?

I accept many dads in particular are/can be feckless, sometimes even a danger, but that involves the " harm standard" applied in law to exclude any parent, or couple, thought to have been abusing their children, so a different legal standard than the "child's best interests paramount principle" being used to deny decent seperated parents here any legal rights.

"Who loves those children, who do you think might love them, if you're content their parent who might, balancing perhaps the excesses of the residential parent etc., sometimes, who indeed loves them,...., not you I'd suggest, who supports a family law system helping to cut off one parent from the child's life, and maybe deserves their own view of their children's best interests to take precrndence over strangers views!"


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## Tish (Feb 16, 2021)

I believe without a doubt that most young children self-harm and commit suicide, is due to Bullying at school and on Social media.
Parents are too busy to monitor their children online and conversation about what is going on in school is brushed under the rug as a right of passage.
Teachers do jack $**T about it, and the age of the children is getting younger and younger.


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## Aunt Marg (Feb 16, 2021)

Tish said:


> I believe without a doubt that most young children self-harm and commit suicide, is due to Bullying at school and on Social media.
> *Parents are too busy to monitor their children* online and conversation about what is going on in school is brushed under the rug as a right of passage.
> Teachers do jack $**T about it, and the age of the children is getting younger and younger.


And failing to spend quality time with their children.

Back in the day when people were less concerned over greed and materialism, mothers were at home, and they more in tune with their children's behaviour, recognizing the early stages of problematic areas and everyday woes.


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## Rosemarie (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm sure children are very confused by all this gender stuff being shoved down their throats....and our history being mangled. No wonder they are having mental problems!
When 'daddy' becomes 'mummy'....when some children have two daddies but no mummy....while others have two mummies but no daddy...they must think the world has gone crazy.
This is the result of all this 'woke' nonsense.


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## Tish (Feb 17, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> And failing to spend quality time with their children.
> 
> Back in the day when people were less concerned over greed and materialism, mothers were at home, and they more in tune with their children's behaviour, recognizing the early stages of problematic areas and everyday woes.


Amen to that! These days mothers being home is such a rarety and looked down upon.
You said it best when mentioning Greed and materialism.


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

Tish said:


> I believe without a doubt that most young children self-harm and commit suicide, is due to Bullying at school and on Social media.
> Parents are too busy to monitor their children online and conversation about what is going on in school is brushed under the rug as a right of passage.
> Teachers do jack $**T about it, and the age of the children is getting younger and younger.


Maybe has alot to do with it, but please have a go at addressing my main point, "Who really loves those children if not their parents, or if other is prevented from doing so"?


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

Aunt Marg said:


> And failing to spend quality time with their children.
> Back in the day when people were less concerned over greed and materialism, mothers were at home, and they more in tune with their children's behaviour, recognizing the early stages of problematic areas and everyday woes.


Thirty os so years ago when my marriage failed I was told 70% of fathers lose all contact with their children, or "meaningful contact" within two years of their marriage failing, so I ask you again, *"Who do you think loves those children if not their parent/parents*", (where there is no abuse etc. obviously!)?


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## Chet (Feb 17, 2021)

We lost the stay at home mom, the bread winning father, and running around with the neighborhood kids. Now, both parents must work to make a living, and kids spend too much time in a virtual world and not the real one. Boys had father figures. Girls had nurturing female figures. Rules are flexible and absolutes are disappearing.


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## tbeltrans (Feb 17, 2021)

Chet said:


> We lost the stay at home mom, the bread winning father, and running around with the neighborhood kids. Now, both parents must work to make a living, and kids spend too much time in a virtual world and not the real one. Boys had father figures. Girls had nurturing female figures. Rules are flexible and absolutes are disappearing.


I have been addressing this in various posts around here too.

Tony


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## HoneyNut (Feb 17, 2021)

I haven't seen any statistics that would indicate children with a stay-at-home parent are less likely to commit suicide (but I haven't done any research either).  I have read tho that the stay-at-home mom's themselves have higher suicide rates.  
But addressing who loves children more than their parents, it really depends on the parents.  Parents who get drugs by trading their children for sex destroy that child's self-worth, almost any other adult in the world is better for that kid than their parents.  
I think grandparents can be a very important support system for kids.  I don't have any grandchildren yet but I know that during adolescence my daughter sometimes only felt understood by my mom, and I remember one wonderful visit with my grandmother when I was at a rebellious age, and to my very happy surprise my otherwise proper grandma joined me in roundly criticizing my parents parenting abilities.  I'm cracking up just remembering it!


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## Pinky (Feb 17, 2021)

Troubled adolescents often don't confide in their parents, or even their peers. Sadly, they fall through the cracks, as they don't trust adults .. not even school counsellors. At least, that's how I felt while I was trying to cope within a dysfunctional family life growing up.


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

HoneyNut said:


> I haven't seen any statistics that would indicate children with a stay-at-home parent are less likely to commit suicide (but I haven't done any research either).  I have read tho that the stay-at-home mom's themselves have higher suicide rates.
> But addressing who loves children more than their parents, it really depends on the parents.  Parents who get drugs by trading their children for sex destroy that child's self-worth, almost any other adult in the world is better for that kid than their parents.
> I think grandparents can be a very important support system for kids.  I don't have any grandchildren yet but I know that during adolescence my daughter sometimes only felt understood by my mom, and I remember one wonderful visit with my grandmother when I was at a rebellious age, and to my very happy surprise my otherwise proper grandma joined me in roundly criticizing my parents parenting abilities.  I'm cracking up just remembering it!


If you've read my posts on this thread carefully you will have noticed I separated those parents abusing or otherwise harming their children, from "decent parents/dads, (I've read a paper by a former head family court judge, judge Wilson, twenty years ago describe them as "okay dads").
The law likewise uses a different legal standard too, fathers/parents no longer living with their wife or mother of their children are judged using the "best interests of the child paramount principle", (some expert observers have said this standard provides weak protection for parental rights, and of course in the UK there are no statuary rights for parents in relation to their children, and this may violate human rights legislation, such as the right to a family life).


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

Pinky said:


> Troubled adolescents often don't confide in their parents, or even their peers. Sadly, they fall through the cracks, as they don't trust adults .. not even school counsellors. At least, that's how I felt while I was trying to cope within a dysfunctional family life growing up.


A child doesn't necessarily need to confide in you are a patent for you to get a pretty good idea whether they're okay, for example had my daughter been at all withdrawn I'd have known pretty soon there was a problem maybe worth addressing.
Let me just point out here, for those quick to jump to the wrong conclusion, that my ex. loved our daughter, and her step dad treated her well enough, so their fairly settled relationship for twenty years before my ex left him, was a boon to my daughter, (no one, on either side made any false allegations of abuse either, I'm very glad to say).
However, once when I'd taken my daughter to Yorkshire where I was working/living for a long weekend, on the return journey home my daughter did look apprehensive/worried, and this was unusual, although I assure you she'd had a great time staying away from her mum for the short break, (she'd rung her mum each day, but I think enjoying herself with me made her feel disloyal to her mother).
I tried to talk to my ex when I returned our daughter hone about what we were putting her through, however on my next visit to pick up my child her stepfather, (who had rung me at work to accuse me of calling my daughter "mental", was there hugging or holding on to my daughter as though she needed his support to cope with having to encounter me).
My ex played a double game the whole time too, so there you are, I couldn't have lived my daughter more, and no other man could have !over her in the same way I believe, (she had two younger stepsisters so the stedad has a few to share his affections with didn't he, oh and he'd given up a son for adoption by the mother when the child was aged two, and from his first marriagemarriage, conveniently divesting himself of financial obligations in the process).
Hence my argument decentparents/fathers need more protection, though those who don't want to listen, don't listen will you, keep thinking you or other professionals know what's best for our children, I expect that after thirty years loosely campaigning for parental rights, (sorry I didn't intend that to sound so personal).


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 17, 2021)

Why a kid wants to harm himself is complicated. We need to know why there is arise.  We have to learn much more about the causes. of  childhood self abuse. There are no easy fixes.  You can't go back to the way things were a half century ago, as if that would have any affect. We have to live in the day, without armchair, pet notions. I don't why kids are doing this more, or it's just being reported more. But, in either case, we need way more input in order to form effective solutions.

As an aside, I have some  male friends, who are now divorced. And frankly, they are only needed to provide financial aid to their kids. I have noticed how some of their exes use the kids as a way to get back at them. And I was shocked that getting to see your kids for 2 hours twice a month is pretty much what most men get. I question whether having the kids only live with one parent, while the other is seen as an "orbiter"- like a planet, which only comes in , and out infrequently, is healthy. I'm not sure how to handle that.

I also believe the law does not treat men equally with women. My dad divorced his wife in the late 1930s. His wife had alcohol issues.  Since the wife wasn't able to take care of the kids, they were placed in an orphanage. My dad was not allowed to take his kids out of the orphanage till he married my mom. Clearly, if  his ex divorced him, she would have been able to have custody of the kids. I don't think the law has improved that much since then.


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> Why a kid wants to harm himself is complicated. We need to know why there is arise.  We have to learn much more about the causes. of  childhood self abuse. There are no easy fixes.  You can't go back to the way things were a half century ago, as if that would have any affect. We have to live in the day, without armchair, pet notions. I don't why kids are doing this more, or it's just being reported more. But, in either case, we need way more input in order to form effective solutions.
> As an aside, I have some  male friends, who are now divorced. And frankly, they are only needed to provide financial aid to their kids. I have noticed how some of their exes use the kids as a way to get back at them. And I was shocked that getting to see your kids for 2 hours twice a month is pretty much what most men get. I question whether having the kids live with one parent, while the other is seen as an "orbiter"- like a planet, which only comes in , and out infrequently.


I apologise for boring the pants off everyone, but does anyone want to answer, "Who loves the child if the parent does not or cannot because they are excluded for no good reason"?
I think it matters, some states in the USA think it matters, because it either their statutes, or in the rules guiding those implementing family law the word "love" is mentioned, and who might provide love to the child/children, but twenty years ago when I did a search on the then "Lord Chancellors department" website, (now Department for Constitutional Affairs), I found just six mentions of the word "love", and three times the word was mentioned in the paper I mentioned previously written by the senior Judge Wilson, who was stepping down.
A department intended to oversee the conduct of laws around child contact etc. never chose to concern itself with who might love the child in other words, and if you did a search now it probably wouldn't appear very often if ever either.
Here on this forum too, it seems a challenge to get anyone to agree a child needs love, and the love of those two most important people, (where there is no good reason to prevent it), the love of the two people who once loved each other, or professed so to do if they were married, and chose to have a child together!


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## Kathleen’s Place (Feb 17, 2021)

Who loves these children if they aren’t getting the love at home???  There are probably a host of people who love, or at least care deeply about them.  Grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, teachers, social workers, parents of friends.  The list goes on.  The problem is, who legally CAN help them?  Who can make these kids love themselves?????  There are many, many, MANY loving parents out there who can’t help their own children, as much and as hard as they try.  What makes these kids so unhappy that they feel the need to harm themselves?


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## Dana (Feb 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I apologise for boring the pants off everyone, but does anyone want to answer, "Who loves the child if the parent does not or cannot because they are excluded for no good reason"?
> I think it matters, some states in the USA think it matters, because it either their statutes, or in the rules guiding those implementing family law the word "love" is mentioned, and who might provide love to the child/children, but twenty years ago when I did a search on the then "Lord Chancellors department" website, (now Department for Constitutional Affairs), I found just six mentions of the word "love", and three times the word was mentioned in the paper I mentioned previously written by the senior Judge Wilson, who was stepping down.
> A department intended to oversee the conduct of laws around child contact etc. never chose to concern itself with who might love the child in other words, and if you did a search now it probably wouldn't appear very often if ever either.
> Here on this forum too, it seems a challenge to get anyone to agree a child needs love, and the love of those two most important people, (where there is no good reason to prevent it), the love of the two people who once loved each other, or professed so to do if they were married, and chose to have a child together!



Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. The fact is, all we know is what you tell us and unfortunately every story has two sides. A parent may love a child to bits, but is that parent the right person for a child to spend most of his or her time?

Yes of course "a child needs love", and there are many who would love a child, not only the parents. When it comes to the Courts and Family Law, that is just not enough when considering the ruling "in the best interests of the child." It may seem clinical and unfair when a decision is made to place a child with one parent instead of the other. The important thing is, cherish each and every moment you have with her. Make it fun, because children pick up on your moods and it affects them.


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> Who loves these children if they aren’t getting the love at home???  There are probably a host of people who love, or at least care deeply about them.  Grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, teachers, social workers, parents of friends.  The list goes on.  The problem is, who legally CAN help them?  Who can make these kids love themselves?????  There are many, many, MANY loving parents out there who can’t help their own children, as much and as hard as they try.  What makes these kids so unhappy that they feel the need to harm themselves?


No, the question I'm trying to raise is "Who loves the child if the parent doesn't because one or other of them have been excluded for no good reason", (though I do accept you could fairly extend the question, however please don't for now because the question I've raised seems too complicated already to extract an answer from anyone reading it so far!).
Your other questions are very fair questions too, but for reasons you'll see in the post following yours why I won't try to address them is responsibility or my motive for my OP question, I've repeated over and over without anyone answering is so easily passed back to me having the " problem", thus deflecting attention away again from the issue I've raised.


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## grahamg (Feb 17, 2021)

Dana said:


> Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. The fact is, all we know is what you tell us and unfortunately every story has two sides. A parent may love a child to bits, but is that parent the right person for a child to spend most of his or her time?
> Yes of course "a child needs love", and there are many who would love a child, not only the parents. When it comes to the Courts and Family Law, that is just not enough when considering the ruling "in the best interests of the child." It may seem clinical and unfair when a decision is made to place a child with one parent instead of the other. The important thing is, cherish each and every moment you have with her. Make it fun, because children pick up on your moods and it affects them.


Your post appears to me to give equal footing to love a natural parent might give a child, to any love anyone else might give the child, (forgive me if I'm wrong, wouldn't want to unfairly criticise someone with sufficient knowledge or understand to diagnose my "unresolved issues").


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## Dana (Feb 17, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Your post appears to me to give equal footing to love a natural parent might give a child, to any love anyone else might give the child, (forgive me if I'm wrong, wouldn't want to unfairly criticise someone with sufficient knowledge or understand to diagnose my "unresolved issues").


Please consider this: _"Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away." Elvis Presley_


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## grahamg (Feb 18, 2021)

Dana said:


> Please consider this: _"Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away." Elvis Presley_


In return please consider this, (btw the timescale for the truth to come out may be the issue in the case you're referring to):

Christmas Version, about the need for love:

"If I decorate my house perfectly with plaid bows, strands of twinkling lights and shiny balls, but do not show love to my family, I'm just another decorator.
If I slave away in the kitchen, baking dozens of Christmas cookies, preparing gourmet meals and arranging a beautifully adorned table at mealtime, but do not show love to my family, I'm just another cook.
If I work at the soup kitchen, carol in the nursing home and give all that I have to charity, but do not show love to my family, it profits me nothing.
If I trim the spruce with shimmering angels and crocheted snowflakes, attend a myriad of holiday parties and sing in the choir's cantata but do not focus on Christ, I have missed the point.

Love stops the cooking to hug the child.
Love sets aside the decorating to kiss the husband.
Love is kind, though harried and tired.
Love doesn't envy another's home that has coordinated Christmas china and table linens.
*Love doesn't yell at the kids to get out of the way, but is thankful they are there to be in the way.
Love doesn't give only to those who are able to give in return, but rejoices in giving to those who can't.*
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails.

Video games will break, pearl necklaces will be lost, golf clubs will rust... But giving the gift of love will endure."


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## Kathleen’s Place (Feb 18, 2021)

grahamg said:


> No, the question I'm trying to raise is "Who loves the child if the parent doesn't because one or other of them have been excluded for no good reason", (though I do accept you could fairly extend the question, however please don't for now because the question I've raised seems too complicated already to extract an answer from anyone reading it so far!).
> Your other questions are very fair questions too, but for reasons you'll see in the post following yours why I won't try to address them is responsibility or my motive for my OP question, I've repeated over and over without anyone answering is so easily passed back to me having the " problem", thus deflecting attention away again from the issue I've raised.


Well it surely IS a convoluted question, grahamg, and I can see why no one is answering you correctly 
I shall take this one last stab at it. IF both parents love the child, but one is being excluded for NO GOOD REASON (and that phrase is the key to my answer) then the parent who HAS the child, while loving the child, DOESN’T LOVE HIM ENOUGH to see the harm they are doing to the child by excluding the other parent. And the excluded parent DOESN’T LOVE the child enough if they aren’t fighting tooth and nail and slaying dragons to get to the child. So my answer is that neither one love the child ENOUGH


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## Judycat (Feb 18, 2021)

grahamg said:


> In return please consider this, (btw the timescale for the truth to come out may be the issue in the case you're referring to):
> 
> Christmas Version, about the need for love:
> 
> ...


Blah. My opinion, you should have the kids permanently. No sending them back to the wife. Get down in the grit of raising them. Then go on about love and other nonsense.


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## grahamg (Feb 18, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> Well it surely IS a convoluted question, grahamg, and I can see why no one is answering you correctly
> I shall take this one last stab at it. IF both parents love the child, but one is being excluded for NO GOOD REASON (and that phrase is the key to my answer) then the parent who HAS the child, while loving the child, DOESN’T LOVE HIM ENOUGH to see the harm they are doing to the child by excluding the other parent. And the excluded parent DOESN’T LOVE the child enough if they aren’t fighting tooth and nail and slaying dragons to get to the child. So my answer is that neither one love the child ENOUGH


Now here I have to disagree with you, and claim greater knowledge or experience anyway.
My ex could not have loved our daughter more, I dont dispute that so I've no idea why you feel confident you can do so without knowing any of the people concerned, and without boring you with too much detail I did acknowledge to my ex. she was the better parent, and the right one to have our daughter living with most of the time.
Why she acted as she did, (the ex) is another matter, and yes she can be fairly criticised and I think I may have given details elsewhere on this forum(?). Ages ago perhaps a court welfare officer stepped in at a judge's request to years after our  marriage failed, and I could not have paid this woman to better try to defend me as the father and lecture my ex as to her behaviour, (the judge then backed this up a few minutes later). However, the law in the UK changed a little, and whereas my own solicitor at the breakup of my marriage, and a good friend of mine who was a solicitor too, (and is now a judge), both told me very confidently, if I went to court, I would not get less than every other weekend visitation. Without that strong affirmation and support I doubt I would ever have had the belief in myself to form the loving relationship with my daughter I did achieve, (she once told me "she loved me deep down" and that for me will do and I hope you agree too!).
All the best, Graham


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## Kathleen’s Place (Feb 18, 2021)

grahamg said:


> Now here I have to disagree with you, and claim greater knowledge or experience anyway.
> My ex could not have loved our daughter more, I dont dispute that so I've no idea why you feel confident you can do so without knowing any of the people concerned, and without boring you with too much detail I did acknowledge to my ex. she was the better parent, and the right one to have our daughter living with most of the time.
> Why she acted as she did, (the ex) is another matter, and yes she can be fairly criticised and I think I may have given details elesewhere on this forum, ages ago perhaps a court welfare officer stepped in at a judge's request to years after our  marriage failed, and I could not have paid this woman to better try to defend me as the father and lecture my ex as to her behaviour, (the judge then backed this up a few minutes later). However, the law in the UK changed a little, and whereas my own solicitor at the breakup of my marriage, and a good friend of mine who was a solicitor, (and is now a judge), both told me very confidently if I went to court I would not get less than every other weekend visitation. Without that strong affirmation and support I doubt I would ever have had the belief in myself to form the loving relationship with my daughter I did achieve, (she once told me "she loved me deep down" and that for me will do and I hope you agree too!).
> All the best, Graham


The whole story may have helped before stating the question. I assumed you were talking random people of children who were self harming themselves. And in that case, I still maintain that if the mother truly loved the child, she would bring the other parent back into the childs life to try and help too. 
I did not realize the question was personal and certainly did not mean to diss your ex or you. And I AM happy that your daughter loves you deep down


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## Sassycakes (Feb 18, 2021)

*I believe a parent's love for a child is very important. I can't really understand how any parent doesn't show that love to their kids. I have 2 children and my life and my husband's life revolved around our children. A new neighbor moved into our neighborhood and she had a daughter and no husband. When I saw that the little girl was always home alone, I felt very bad for the child. I asked the mother if I could watch the daughter and the mother said yes. So I watched the little girl every day during the summer and took her back and forth to school when the school opened in September. After a while, they moved. A few years ago when I joined Facebook the girl reached out to me. I still cry when I remember what she told me. She said she never knew what love was until she met me. She said she couldn't believe the love she felt when she was at my house. The love I had for my family and the love I shared with her. She is a Mom now and she thanked me for teaching her how a Mom should love their children.*


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## fuzzybuddy (Feb 18, 2021)

I'm not sure how to answer the Zen like question of who loves kids when parents are prevented from doing so. I have to agree with Dana, "Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. ".


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## Kathleen’s Place (Feb 18, 2021)

Sassycakes said:


> *I believe a parent's love for a child is very important. I can't really understand how any parent doesn't show that love to their kids. I have 2 children and my life and my husband's life revolved around our children. A new neighbor moved into our neighborhood and she had a daughter and no husband. When I saw that the little girl was always home alone, I felt very bad for the child. I asked the mother if I could watch the daughter and the mother said yes. So I watched the little girl every day during the summer and took her back and forth to school when the school opened in September. After a while, they moved. A few years ago when I joined Facebook the girl reached out to me. I still cry when I remember what she told me. She said she never knew what love was until she met me. She said she couldn't believe the love she felt when she was at my house. The love I had for my family and the love I shared with her. She is a Mom now and she thanked me for teaching her how a Mom should love their children.*


  Oh my gosh, what a beautiful story . I don’t think we ever realize how we might have touched someone’s s life. How marvelous that she sought you out and told you.  And how generous YOU were to take her into your lives at the time.  This is just a beautiful love story all the way around!!!


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## Sassycakes (Feb 18, 2021)

Kathleen’s Place said:


> Oh my gosh, what a beautiful story . I don’t think we ever realize how we might have touched someone’s s life. How marvelous that she sought you out and told you.  And how generous YOU were to take her into your lives at the time.  This is just a beautiful love story all the way around!!!



_* I love the fact that I was able to have that girl at my house. She was a year younger than my son. When they got older they even dated but her Mom made her breakup with my son when he was starting college. She said he would meet someone prettier than she was, and drop her. My son was devastated. Then she sent her daughter to college in California and never let the daughter come home even to visit. Fortunately, the girl married a good man and has 2 precious children. Sometimes some people should never have children.*_


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## grahamg (Apr 3, 2021)

Dana said:


> Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. The fact is, all we know is what you tell us and unfortunately every story has two sides. A parent may love a child to bits, but is that parent the right person for a child to spend most of his or her time?
> Yes of course "a child needs love", and there are many who would love a child, not only the parents. When it comes to the Courts and Family Law, that is just not enough when considering the ruling "in the best interests of the child." It may seem clinical and unfair when a decision is made to place a child with one parent instead of the other. The important thing is, cherish each and every moment you have with her. Make it fun, because children pick up on your moods and it affects them.



I've chosen to try to revive this thread, and respond to the above post again, because I've found an attachment I believe sums up the predicament faced by so many parents, especially fathers "doing their best", as we're being lectured in the albeit friendly manner above, (where all kinds of assumptions are being made by a "professional" for example, as to whether we knew or didn't know, how to love and cherish our own children):


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## grahamg (Apr 3, 2021)

fuzzybuddy said:


> I'm not sure how to answer the Zen like question of who loves kids when parents are prevented from doing so. I have to agree with Dana, "Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. ".


If I do my views on the weaknesses in the family law providing such weak protection of parental rights may still stand, (in the UK we've got no "statute rights" btw, as in rights written down in law rather than "common law rights", not written down but reflecting the way courts choose to treat parents in intact families etc.), and all those parents/fathers/grandparents protesting about family law in your country and mine cant all be wrong or "have unresolved issues" can they, ever so easy though it is to accuse people of that fault.


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## MarciKS (Apr 3, 2021)

Tish said:


> I believe without a doubt that most young children self-harm and commit suicide, is due to Bullying at school and on Social media.
> Parents are too busy to monitor their children online and conversation about what is going on in school is brushed under the rug as a right of passage.
> Teachers do jack $**T about it, and the age of the children is getting younger and younger.


i think the parents are so lost in their own self absorption on their phones that they aren't paying attn either. i've noticed around here they either nitpick the kids to death or they pay them no mind at all.


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## grahamg (Apr 4, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> i think the parents are so lost in their own self absorption on their phones that they aren't paying attn either. i've noticed around here they either nitpick the kids to death or they pay them no mind at all.


I've seen another cartoon recently you might find amusing so far as the obsession people have with their mobile phones, you could say they're a "blight upon us all"!


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## MarciKS (Apr 4, 2021)

grahamg said:


> I've seen another cartoon recently you might find amusing so far as the obsession people have with their mobile phones, you could say they're a "blight upon us all"!


Some technology is great. But the cellphones are definitely a blight.


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## grahamg (Apr 4, 2021)

MarciKS said:


> Some technology is great. But the cellphones are definitely a blight.


Here is the cartoon I mentioned above, with an ironic look at the problem:


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## Rosemarie (Apr 4, 2021)

Dana said:


> Graham...you sound as if you have some very unresolved issues. The fact is, all we know is what you tell us and unfortunately every story has two sides. A parent may love a child to bits, but is that parent the right person for a child to spend most of his or her time?
> 
> Yes of course "a child needs love", and there are many who would love a child, not only the parents. When it comes to the Courts and Family Law, that is just not enough when considering the ruling "in the best interests of the child." It may seem clinical and unfair when a decision is made to place a child with one parent instead of the other. The important thing is, cherish each and every moment you have with her. Make it fun, because children pick up on your moods and it affects them.


Yes, he is still very bitter about what happened and, as you say, we only hear his side of things. His ex-wife might paint a totally different picture.
Sorry to get personal grahamg, but whatever subject we discuss on here, you always manage to bring up the custody battle you had.


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## grahamg (Apr 4, 2021)

Rosemarie said:


> Yes, he is still very bitter about what happened and, as you say, we only hear his side of things. His ex-wife might paint a totally different picture.
> Sorry to get personal grahamg, but whatever subject we discuss on here, you always manage to bring up the custody battle you had.


It wasn't a custody battle, it was an access to one's child dispute that you're forming a strident opinion upon, and don't think I haven't heard the "we've only heard one side of the argument" position before, but where are the "two(/three) sides, if I'm going to state my ex. was the superior parent, loved our daughter as much as I did, " if not more", and I felt fortunate to have the cooperation I did for ten years over contact with my daughter?

Find me someone who thinks there is another side to those statements, and I assure you, difficult as it was to deal with my ex., (my legal team thinking she was exceptionally difficult, and when our child was born the hospital staff put my wife in a large room on her own no less, so awkward did they find her!).

However, "greatness has come from our unequal union and marriage in the form of our very successful and popular child", and all you can do in criticising me, or feeling there must be more criticism to come, is suggest I shouldn't have done as I did so far as being a father, reinforcing the view I/we don't know what we're doingdoing as fathers, (I'm telling you btw my daughter says "I ruined the first twelve years of her life, don't let him ruin the next twelve", but do you think a child so badly treated as she claimed would pass every milestone with flying colours, and up to twelve years of age I'd be told, " I hate you", followed by "Keep coming daddy"!?).

In a sense telling a parent they shouldn't have done or decided for themselves what they should have done, (or ex's do this), is deny a close interpersonal and loving relationship between a father and their child, ("gatekeeper behaviour" professionals choose to call it).

No one tells you what you should say or do so far as your husband/partner is concerned, "it is ridiculous to suggest such a thing", (again where there's no abuse, and none was alleged by either side relating to my child), and yet tearing into a parent, especially a dad is fair game, so no I'm not listening, whether I have "issues" or not!

One notable fathers rights campaigner in the UK probably did have what you'd call "issues" when denied contact with his three daughters, and I'd suggest he'd have gone completely mad had he not campaigned as hard as he did against our family law system. In the end one of his daughters came to live with her dad, aged sixteen, and by then he understood the legal system well enough to phone a judge in London who is available for the purooe and have a court order faxed to him, once the judge had spoken to the daughter, before the police arrived at his door, (his child having had to put her belongings in a bin bag when she left her mothers home. So yes, there are plenty of folks/men/fathers out there with "issues" but don't be kidded were about to accept the family law system isn't skewed/wrong/unworkable, injurious to many children, and treating parents/fathers as I was treated, "with all the advantages I had" means other children don't get all the boost I did when complying with her wishes to "Keep coming daddy" (though I couldn't have done it under current family law).


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