# Mainland Europe is Burning



## Mike (Nov 23, 2021)

Denmark, Holland, Germany & Austria, are all on fire, plus there are riots
caused by the Anti-Vax people, the Dutch are using Water Cannons to try
and control the uprising, the Danes say that it is led by criminals.

The Germans are considering arresting people who are not vaccinated and
forcibly injecting them, but they probably won't.

This should all be put at the door of Macron in France, he rubbished the
AstraZeneca jab so much that most Europeans were afraid to take it.

Somebody in authority in the UK, while being interviewed about the anti
Vax people said, that the Government are considering that any people who
are not vaccinated will be allowed to travel on public transport, will not be
allowed to travel abroad for a holiday and they will not be allowed into any
NHS Hospital ever, even to visit a patient! I didn't get his name.

All speculation of course, but there is no smoke without fire, watch out for
any developments.

Mike.


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## chic (Nov 23, 2021)

Being forced to be jabbed with an experimental drug promoted as a vaccine under "emergency use authorization" with no product liability or lose all your freedoms and rights indefinitely. What could possibly go wrong?

Kudos to the protestors. I hope they help set the rest of us free.


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## Shero (Nov 23, 2021)

Mike says: "_This should all be put at the door of Macron in France, he rubbished the AstraZeneca jab so much that most Europeans were afraid to take it."_

Nonsense, Macron is President of France not the rest of Europe - they make their own decisions!!

The UK recorded 44,242 new coronavirus cases on Friday.

The government has consistently said it has no plans for another lockdown for England, but has said it could bring in extra Covid measures - known as Plan B - to protect the NHS. These would include mandatory Covid passports for some indoor venues, compulsory face coverings in certain indoor settings and advice to work from home.
.


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 23, 2021)

Maybe, just maybe, they’re not anti-vaxx so much as anti-mandate.  Y’all just don’t seem to get it.  Once the government has control of your health care (and make your movements dependent on that,) your freedom is gone.


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## JimBob1952 (Nov 23, 2021)

I've been vaccinated and boosted.  I have to say, however, that there seem to be an awful lot of cases popping up everywhere.


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## suds00 (Nov 23, 2021)

if government did nothing in the face of the virus people would be screaming .the government had to implement mandates .people weren't getting vaccines on their own making the pandemic worse. this is an emergency situation, many people understand this. i know people don't like to be told what to do.


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## Alice November (Nov 23, 2021)

Yes there are so many problems here in Europe.  I live in Northwest France and not even a few days go by where there are not demonstrations or people in a parade with placards with words of disagreement with the latest mandates. 

Its not as easy to get a vaccination as I would have liked. I understand back in the USA there have been real outreach programs for seniors and free vax. They canceled free vax in the summer in Fr. Although we do have one of the highest vax rates, still the Covid increases.

Most demonstrations are about Liberté, in the sense that french people are very heated up when any freedoms are removed. Being told to do anything by government seems to send them into rebellion, sometimes burning cars. Thankfully we rented a garage for the vehicle, so at least it isn't on the street to be kicked in or have th mirrors torn off. I exagerate a bit but still it can get to me at times.

As for Macron, he does well, he can't insist too much on anything or it would be Civil War. 

I could go on but its getting long.


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## JimBob1952 (Nov 23, 2021)

Alice November said:


> Yes there are so many problems here in Europe.  I live in Northwest France and not even a few days go by where there are not demonstrations or people in a parade with placards with words of disagreement with the latest mandates.
> 
> Its not as easy to get a vaccination as I would have liked. I understand back in the USA there have been real outreach programs for seniors and free vax. They canceled free vax in the summer in Fr. Although we do have one of the highest vax rates, still the Covid increases.
> 
> ...



Bonjour Alice, enchante de faire votre connaissance.   I won't try to write any more French, as your English is perfect and my French is very poor.  

I love France but I do not think it would be an easy country to govern!


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## Alice November (Nov 23, 2021)

@Mike Its a firie topic, also a necessary one perhaps. I'm curious about the next stage. 
What will it be,more lockdowns, more mandates, more boosters? Death numbers still going up making the same geometric triangle mountain heading straight up and right on the graphs. They say the vax is working. Of course its still mostly us over 65's making those numbers grow.
Please stay safe everyone. ⚜⚜


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## Purwell (Nov 23, 2021)

Mike said:


> Denmark, Holland, Germany & Austria, are all on fire, plus there are riots
> caused by the Anti-Vax people, the Dutch are using Water Cannons to try
> and control the uprising, the Danes say that it is led by criminals.


This seems a leetle bit over ze top to me!


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## chic (Nov 23, 2021)

I remember my dad had to fight a war eighty years ago in this same area of the world over a very similar issue. If the citizens of those countries protest hard enough maybe those dark days of our history will never be revisited.


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## AnnieA (Nov 23, 2021)

Still don't understand the Dutch protests.  They have very liberal, sensible requirements for Covid passes. Passes are granted  to:  previously recovered people with naturally conferred immunity, fully vaccinated, those who have had a negative test within 24 hours of the event they wish to attend...and the tests are free!   So basically anyone in the Netherlands who is not actively infected with Covid can get a Covid pass.

.


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## Nathan (Nov 23, 2021)

Mike said:


> Denmark, Holland, Germany & Austria, are all on fire, plus there are riots
> caused by the Anti-Vax people, the Dutch are using Water Cannons to try
> and control the uprising, the Danes say that it is led by criminals.
> 
> ...


The anti-vax hysteria is internet fueled, where lies and manipulation travel at the speed of light.    The Danes have it right- riots are likely led by criminals, what other motive could there be.


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## Alice November (Nov 23, 2021)

@chic Yes, my Dad was in this part of France at the end of WWII. There is a huge monument to the soldiers of the USA I can practically see it from our apartment. Also when we lived several months in Normandy in St.Severe there is a large cemetary and memorial for aUS artillary tank unit as well. Makes it a bit more real for me living here. Heck, living in France even makes the Fr.Revolution more real to me these days!    ⚜⚜


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## HarryHawk (Nov 23, 2021)

In in the U.S. we refer to these events as mostly peaceful protests


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## MrPants (Nov 23, 2021)

I have no issue with legit protests with placards, people marching and shouting their frustrations but when it includes destruction of public & private property or looting of shops, that's not protesting! That's just thugs using protests as cover to commit criminal activity


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## Della (Nov 23, 2021)

CarolfromTX said:


> Maybe, just maybe, they’re not anti-vaxx so much as anti-mandate.  Y’all just don’t seem to get it.  Once the government has control of your health care (and make your movements dependent on that,) your freedom is gone.


Why do you think that?  We used to have mandatory testing for TB and people who tested positive and couldn't be safely quarantined at home were forced to enter sanatoriums.  Children weren't allowed to start school unless they had, had certain shots when I was in school and when my son was in school.  I don't know how it is now, but I'm glad we no longer have to deal with TB, small pox, typhoid fever etc.  Our freedom didn't go away because of those mandatory vaccinations, we just all lived in a healthier place and our average life expectancy went up.


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## Mike (Nov 23, 2021)

When I and probably most of you here, were born, after the WWll,
vaccinations were mandatory for all new born children, there were
no people who demonstrated against them, because, they were life
saving.

As for Europe being torn apart by anti-vax people, I don't really think
that is the truth, it is more likely to be illegal immigrants, who for some
reason cannot approach authority to register for vaccine, no papers, or
no money, or just frightened and trying to stop mandatory vaccinations.

Mike.


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## chic (Nov 23, 2021)

Nathan said:


> The anti-vax hysteria is internet fueled, where lies and manipulation travel at the speed of light.    The Danes have it right- riots are likely led by criminals, what other motive could there be.


A desire for history not to repeat itself?   

Nothing is going to magically go back to normal if everyone gets vaccinated, gets boosters and submits to vaccine passports. In your heart, I believe you know this. I believe many people are beginning to see this after the past twenty one months. They no longer believe the leaders who took their freedoms away. That's why they are protesting.


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## chic (Nov 23, 2021)

Mike said:


> When I and probably most of you here, were born, after the WWll,
> vaccinations were mandatory for all new born children, there were
> no people who demonstrated against them, because, they were life
> saving.
> ...


This isn't a vaccine Mike. It's an experimental drug with no product liability given emergency use authorization. And it doesn't work. It doesn't provide immunity to the inoculated. It cannot be compared to any vaccine from the past that went through 10-15 years of clinical trials. You know this. Come on.


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## John cycling (Nov 23, 2021)

AnnieA said:


> Still don't understand the Dutch protests.  They have very liberal, sensible requirements for Covid passes. Passes are granted  to:  previously recovered people with naturally conferred immunity, fully vaccinated, those who have had a negative test within 24 hours of the event they wish to attend...and the tests are free!   So basically anyone in the Netherlands who is not actively infected with Covid can get a Covid pass.



Why does this have to be explained to you or to anyone!  Just because you want to bow down, give up your freedoms and be a servant to the ruling class doesn't mean that everyone else wants the same.  Many of us want to continue living, being healthy, happy, freedom loving human beings, who care about our loved ones and the rest of humanity and want to make OUR OWN decisions for how we live the rest of our lives.

I'm not a lab rat and don't want any psychopathic strangers shooting poisons into my body or cramming them up my nose to my brain as a so called test.  No, none of that is reasonable, and certainly none of that would be helpful to me nor to anyone else.  Personally I don't care in the least for the ruling class that's behind this and I wish they'd all disappear.

That many people don't understand fascism and oppression when it's smacking you in the face is why this issue has kept perpetuating over the last two  years as otherwise it would have disappeared before it even got started.

@Aneeda72 - Whooshhhhhh, right over your head.  Your dictatorial oppressors have NO RIGHT to force me nor any one else to do anything. However, you're all free to spit on each other if you wish, to "save" yourselves or whatever. 



Warrigal said:


> After the war . . . US troops in Italy lined up people, including young women, and sprayed their pubes and armpits with DDT to control parasites.



@Warrigal - That's exactly the same kind of dictatorial toxic and dangerous oppression that's happening now.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2021)

chic said:


> Being forced to be jabbed with an experimental drug promoted as a vaccine under "emergency use authorization" with no product liability or lose all your freedoms and rights indefinitely. What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> Kudos to the protestors. I hope they help set the rest of us free.


Set you free from what?

Why aren’t you joining protests?  I am sure you could find one somewhere.  You are as free to die from Covid as the rest of us are.  thousands of unmasked people, expressing their freedom, and gathering together in tight quarters breathing each other’s air into each others faces.

Feel FREE to join them.  Bet you don’t.  After all what could possibly go?


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2021)

Della said:


> Why do you think that?  We used to have mandatory testing for TB and people who tested positive and couldn't be safely quarantined at home were forced to enter sanatoriums.  Children weren't allowed to start school unless they had, had certain shots when I was in school and when my son was in school.  I don't know how it is now, but I'm glad we no longer have to deal with TB, small pox, typhoid fever etc.  Our freedom didn't go away because of those mandatory vaccinations, we just all lived in a healthier place and our average life expectancy went up.


TB is still an issue


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## Don M. (Nov 23, 2021)

Much of Europe, and Asia, has a higher population density than we do....and the bulk of those people are crowded together in cities.  It is quite understandable that people in those nations would be more susceptible to this virus.  But, with the holidays approaching, and large groups gathering at the sports stadiums and bars, etc., I will not be surprised if we have another major "spike" in the near future.  

This is NOT a good time for Anyone to be letting down their guard.  Contrary to some, I do NOT believe that this a some sort of government "conspiracy", rather, it is a global crisis that must be taken seriously.  Government "dictates" are likely something we will have to deal with until this virus becomes a minor issue.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2021)

John cycling said:


> Why does this have to be explained to you or to anyone!  Just because you want to bow down, give up your freedoms and be a servant to the ruling class doesn't mean that everyone else wants the same.  Many of us want to continue living, being healthy, happy, freedom loving human beings, who care about our loved ones and the rest of humanity and want to make OUR OWN decisions for how we live the rest of our lives.
> 
> I'm not a lab rat and don't want any psychopathic strangers shooting poisons into my body or cramming them up my nose to my brain as a so called test.  No, none of that is reasonable, and certainly none of that would be helpful to me nor to anyone else.  Personally I don't care in the least for the ruling class that's behind this and I wish they'd all disappear.
> 
> That many people don't understand fascism and oppression when it's smacking you in the face is why this issue has kept perpetuating over the last two  years as otherwise it would have disappeared before it even got started.


 ”cramming them up my nose to my brain as a so called test”; catch up @John cycling-there is a salvia test.  You spit into a tube.  I am sure you know how to spit.  Lose the drama, nothing goes into YOUR brain, nothing.  I am quite sure of this.  

As for “psychopathic strangers shooting poisons into your body”; hmm, better than having the doctor stuff his finger up your butt, his middle finger.  After all, you don’t know how many butts that doctors finger has been up.  Certainly more scary than a clean swap up the nose.

But just spit John, just spit.


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## Della (Nov 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> TB is still an issue


I know. I was exposed to it when I was in England with my husband for the Air Force. There are a whole lot of drugs I can't take because of it and I have to have chest x-rays every two years to see if it's flared up. I just mean it's not the huge problem in America that it once was.


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## Warrigal (Nov 23, 2021)

chic said:


> I remember my dad had to fight a war eighty years ago in this same area of the world over a very similar issue. If the citizens of those countries protest hard enough maybe those dark days of our history will never be revisited.


Hardly the same issue. You wrote that he had to fight a war, Was he conscripted?

France had been invaded by a hostile force, as had half of western Europe and a good deal of the eastern section. People were being rounded up and sent to work camps and worse.
Jews were forced to wear a yellow star and the country's treasures were being plundered.

After the war Europe suffered famine and plague. US troops in Italy lined up people, including young women, and sprayed their pubes and armpits with DDT to control parasites. You cannot compare the privations of war with measures to control Covid 19. They are just not in the same league at all.


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## Warrigal (Nov 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> TB is still an issue


Not in Australia. I was vaccinated against TB as a child when it was prevalent. An intensive campaign of mobile X ray vans and vaccination eliminated this disease in the community. We still get a few people coming in from overseas with TB but it is now curable with drugs. My daughter in law caught it in Nepal but is fine now. God bless the pandemic experts and the scientists doing the lab work.

Vaccination can protect whole countries if widely taken up but in the third world it will continue to exist unless the rich nations help these countries to vaccinate their people too. PNG to the north of Australia has a very low rate of vaccination. They need our assistance and unless we give it, Covid will remain a threat to our population for years in the future.


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## Nathan (Nov 23, 2021)

Warrigal said:


> After the war Europe suffered famine and plague. US troops in Italy lined up people, including young women, and sprayed their pubes and armpits with DDT to control parasites. *You cannot compare the privations of war with measures to control Covid 19. They are just not in the same league at all.*


Precisely, thank you- well said.


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## TooMuchMuktuk (Nov 23, 2021)

Alice November said:


> Yes there are so many problems here in Europe.  I live in Northwest France and not even a few days go by where there are not demonstrations or people in a parade with placards with words of disagreement with the latest mandates.
> 
> Its not as easy to get a vaccination as I would have liked. I understand back in the USA there have been real outreach programs for seniors and free vax. They canceled free vax in the summer in Fr. Although we do have one of the highest vax rates, still the Covid increases.
> 
> ...


In the U.S., the jabs are not FREE.  The tax payers are being charged for it all, regardless of whether or not we are supportive of it.  The U.S. is definately no longer a representative republic.  Very sad.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2021)

TooMuchMuktuk said:


> In the U.S., the jabs are not FREE.  The tax payers are being charged for it all, regardless of whether or not we are supportive of it.  The U.S. is definately no longer a representative republic.  Very sad.


The USofA has not been a representative republic for many many decades, if ever. 

The jabs are free to those getting jabbed-if you have insurance it is billed, if you don’t, you don’t pay which means it is free to you.  The insurance companies can afford to pay, besides, they probably own stock in the vaccine companies.  

Edited:  we are actually a constitutional federal republic @TooMuchMuktuk.  However, when we chose to elect representatives to vote for us we gave up our power as individuals, a huge mistake.  I have no ideal what we are now or what we are evolving into but the times they are a changing. . Probably for the worst


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## CarolfromTX (Nov 23, 2021)

Della said:


> Why do you think that?  We used to have mandatory testing for TB and people who tested positive and couldn't be safely quarantined at home were forced to enter sanatoriums.  Children weren't allowed to start school unless they had, had certain shots when I was in school and when my son was in school.  I don't know how it is now, but I'm glad we no longer have to deal with TB, small pox, typhoid fever etc.  Our freedom didn't go away because of those mandatory vaccinations, we just all lived in a healthier place and our average life expectancy went up.


I think that because it is likely true.  It is certainly true for me. I’m vaccinated, but I don’t think it should be mandatory. Please keep in mind that the death rate for this disease is less than one percent. Not a death sentence. Hospitalization rate less than 5 percent. And you demand a vaccine for that?

 In this day and age, I see increasing government over-reach, worming it’s way into every aspect of our lives.  And the vaccines you mentioned were tested over years.  And guess what? They were protested as well.  My biggest gripe is how the unvaccinated are being villainized  and ostracized and deprived of their employment. And no surprise, the matter of personal health has been politicized to the extreme.


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## Shero (Nov 23, 2021)

Alice November said:


> Yes there are so many problems here in Europe.  I live in Northwest France and not even a few days go by where there are not demonstrations or people in a parade with placards with words of disagreement with the latest mandates.
> 
> Its not as easy to get a vaccination as I would have liked. I understand back in the USA there have been real outreach programs for seniors and free vax. They canceled free vax in the summer in Fr. Although we do have one of the highest vax rates, still the Covid increases.
> 
> ...



Bonjour Alice! and welcome! I agree with your comment about Macron.


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## Aneeda72 (Nov 23, 2021)

Shero said:


> Bonjour Alice! and welcome! I agree with your comment about Macron.


Well, I reserve judgement.  I’ve never met the man , and besides people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## Shero (Nov 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Well, I reserve judgement.  I’ve never met the man , and besides people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


Putting politics aside, he came to my brother's restaurant in Lyon before he was President and a very nice man he is. I like him!


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## MrPants (Nov 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> TB is still an issue


My Grandfather, on my mothers side, died of TB after he got home to Canada from fighting overseas in WW1. Mind you, that was in 1928 so a log time ago.


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## chic (Nov 23, 2021)

Aneeda72 said:


> Set you free from what?
> 
> Why aren’t you joining protests?  I am sure you could find one somewhere.  You are as free to die from Covid as the rest of us are.  thousands of unmasked people, expressing their freedom, and gathering together in tight quarters breathing each other’s air into each others faces.
> 
> Feel FREE to join them.  Bet you don’t.  After all what could possibly go?


I did join a peaceful demonstration the other day on my way home from work. It was in front of a government building in the heart of suburbia of all places but this shows how intensely people are opposed to vaccine mandates. What's happening in Austria has awakened a lot of people obviously.


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## Shero (Nov 23, 2021)

German Health Minister says: by the end of this winter everyone will be vaccinated, cured, or dead.


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## Warrigal (Nov 23, 2021)

He's probably 97% accurate.


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## Furryanimal (Nov 23, 2021)

Those who saw the article I posted on another Covid thread know that here in Britain there is an acceptance that this is  something we just have to live with.
And if the press keep pushing they will always get the answer they want and present it as a scary headline.
Not surprised to see riots in Europe.l have always thought such protests were inevitable.
And it needs the people to rise up if their freedoms are not to be permanently removed.
The fact remains Covid has a better than 99% recovery rate and no one seems remotely worried about all the other viruses, bacteria and diseases we take our chances with on a daily basis.Which,if Governments took the same approach as they do with Covid,would lead to permanent lockdown and compulsory pre-emptive treatment.
Earlier in the year the Welsh Health Minister was informing us that in Wales we would have lockdowns to combat flu.Such things have been considered.
I openly admit the only reason I got vaccinated-and will have my booster jab next week-is because I feared being banned from things if I didn’t.
And so I have to carry my Covid Pass around with me to prove my vaccination status.Something I object too...but the alternative is not to do the things I enjoy or  take a test that is not always accurate and could lead to me having to isolate.
I urge everyone to study previous Pandemics and compare how they were handled in relation to this one.It might lead you to the conclusion that the World got the handling of this one horribly wrong.
And they do have a strange habit of turning up every century or so.It is almost as if they are nature’s population control.


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## Shero (Nov 23, 2021)




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## WheatenLover (Nov 23, 2021)

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20211122/us-covid-deaths-2021-surpass-2020-total


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## dseag2 (Nov 23, 2021)

Alice November said:


> Yes there are so many problems here in Europe.  I live in Northwest France and not even a few days go by where there are not demonstrations or people in a parade with placards with words of disagreement with the latest mandates.
> 
> Its not as easy to get a vaccination as I would have liked. I understand back in the USA there have been real outreach programs for seniors and free vax. They canceled free vax in the summer in Fr. Although we do have one of the highest vax rates, still the Covid increases.
> 
> ...


Yes, I was in France when the Yellow Vest movement was protesting about economic hardship.  It was December 2019.  We almost didn't get out of the country because of transportation strikes.  This seems to be a constant occurrence in France.  Don't get me wrong, I love France and was in Cannes at the time so I could have gladly stayed a big longer.

When we visited Greece in September, students were protesting over police involvement.  On previous occasions, rocks had been thrown through store windows, graffiti was painted on the walls and there were constant protests due to economic belt-tightening.  

We think we have it bad in the US, but in comparison it really isn't that different.  I completely understand where you are coming from.


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## chic (Nov 24, 2021)

Furryanimal said:


> Those who saw the article I posted on another Covid thread know that here in Britain there is an acceptance that this is  something we just have to live with.
> And if the press keep pushing they will always get the answer they want and present it as a scary headline.
> Not surprised to see riots in Europe.l have always thought such protests were inevitable.
> And it needs the people to rise up if their freedoms are not to be permanently removed.
> ...


I agree with you wholeheartedly!


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## Furryanimal (Nov 24, 2021)

chic said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly!


Thanks.My views on this are not generally popular


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## Packerjohn (Nov 24, 2021)

We have choices: 1. Follow the  "Chairman" and his comrades or 2. Rebel against the system.  Both seem like extremes to me.  Being a bit of a "lone wolf" I just followed my gut feeling and got the 2 jabs and will get the booster on December 24th.  I figured it's the right thing to do for me.  I think those sheep that follow the leaders blindly are just as bad as the rioters because they too are sheep following leaders who advocate violence.  Best to think for yourself and do the right thing.  I know I did and I did it without anyone forcing me.


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## Becky1951 (Nov 25, 2021)

"Best to think for yourself and do the right thing"

Absolutely! And if not being vaccinated is what you think is right for you then being forced is wrong.


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## chic (Nov 25, 2021)

Becky1951 said:


> "Best to think for yourself and do the right thing"
> 
> Absolutely! And if not being vaccinated is what you think is right for you then being forced is wrong.


It's so deeply personal and should be private. This is a decision that should be made between an individual and their physician. The government should have no say in this at all. When we begin to view healthy people as contagion and treat them as such, this opens a whole new and dangerous reality for people. No wonder Europe is on fire.


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